# Sikhism And Fortune Telling



## Sukhmani Brar (Jul 22, 2007)

I often get confused, whether to believe on the people who tell fortune or not. I have never been able to find an answer because there are some people who have been able to tell what is going to happen in my life, what happened in my past life and what I am thinking to do. For instance, this lady from Egypt whom I never met before told me everything  about what is going in my life. And everything she told was true. (it is not her profession though, she never does it for money)

What does Sikhism say about this. I would really appreciate if someone could help me find an answer.

Regards,
Sukhmani


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## manjotkaur (Jul 22, 2007)

Fortune telling is a calculation and people who know the tact of reading the greh nakshatra at times do tell u few things, but no always everything is true 

Even i have an experience whereby they take hand prints and match with some they have read the reprints they have for that matched print.They told everything concerning my family my mom and my dad names and occupations and even about me.I was amazed as at that time what ever i was told was about things that had already happened with me and futuristic things i wasnt aware of as they had yet to happen , now its almost five years and what ever future things i was told none is correct .......nothing of that sort has happened as was specified on particular month and time and year.

So i think its all predictions based on calculations and they may not be true everytime .

That was just my experince so though of putting it as is relavent to ur happening.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Jul 22, 2007)

My experience with such people has been totally different from that of yours. On the issue of the ability of the person you are talking about you should look and research a few questions to start with: -

1. How much about you is known to the people common between the person who told you about your life and yourself?
2. How much stuff the person told you is common and general stuff? For example - saying that you have/had/will have problem in love life, you have/had/will have financial problem, someone is/did/will cause problem in your life etc. etc. is pretty general and will cover most of the people  . Remember - _"Nanak dukhia sab sansaar" _

Below is what Gurbani says about Astrology and Fortune telling: -

ਆਂਟ ਸੇਤੀ ਨਾਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਸੂਝਤੇ ਤਿਨਿ ਲੋਅ ॥ 
ਮਗਰ ਪਾਛੈ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਏਹੁ ਪਦਮ ਅਲੋਅ ॥੨॥ _
[AGGS, M 1, P 662]_

"One holds the nose with his two fingers and thumb
and claims to see three worlds. But it is very astonishing
that he does not know what is behind his back."

ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ 
ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ 
ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥_ 
[AGGS, M 1, P 904.]_

"Astrologer counts and recounts and prepare the horoscope.
Then he reads it to his clients. But he does not
recognize the reality. The highest of all is the philosophy
of the Guru. All others deliberations are ashes
(means nothing)."

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਚਣੀ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਭਲਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥_
[AGGS, M 3, P 1093.]_

"(Instead of reading the horoscopes of others) read the
horoscope of your mind to find the highest joy of the
joys. The one, who understand the Divine thought
(philosophy), is called the noble Brahman."


Now my question for your concience - If fortune - telling is possible than would not that mean that your future is pretty much already fixed and decided? If your future is fixed and already decided then what is your role in this world/cosmos? Remember, what Guru Nanak said, - 


Please read the following observation from Dr Joe Schwarcz, Professor of Chemistry, in his article - Sense and Nonsense: -

"Astrology has been practiced since the time of the ancient Egyptians. This, however, does not make it valid. Is there any reason to believe that astrology works? Any physics student can calculate that the gravitational effect of the heavenly bodies on human bodies is insignificant. In fact, as far as a baby is concerned, the gravitational effect of the obstetrician at the moment of birth is far greater than the effect of the stars. Is our destiny then shaped by the body weight of the doctor who brings us into the world? There is, however, no need to use physics to refute astrology. Its validity can be readily tested. Just ask a number of people to write autobiographical sketches. Give these to astrologers together with the birth dates of the subjects. Ask the astrologers to match the character sketches with the birth dates. They can't. It is also interesting to note that when birth dates of scientists or politicians or actors or psychics are compiled, they are remarkably random. Shouldn't unemotional, skeptical, profit-oriented scientists have different birth signs than sensitive, altruistic, generous psychics? But I guess I'm being too cynical. It must be because I'm a Leo and everyone knows that Leos are much too sensible to believe in such nonsense." [1]

References:
Schwarcz, Joe. 1998. Sense and Nonsense. The Gazette, Montreal,
Sunday, October 25, 1998, page C4.


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## Sukhmani Brar (Jul 22, 2007)

But the lady told me specific things. How is that possible to happen.


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## Shaheediyan (Jul 23, 2007)

Ridhi Sidhi, astrology, numerology, palm reading etc... Guru Ji does not say these things don't exist, Guru Ji says they are of no avail, as you are putting your faith in the pointless exercises which ultimately aren't going to help you to remember Vaheguru and achieve mukti.

The tuks pointed above clearly show Guru Ji saying that people who pursue these temporary knowledge to be completely wasting their precious time.

Knowing your future doesn't make one iota of difference to one's spiritual life.

Only putting complete faith in Vaheguru's charan and devoting yourself to his service through your jeevan advances ones spritual life.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 23, 2007)

The Sikhi version of Ms Cleo in Sikhism?

One hopes not.

Tejwant


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2007)

*Ridhi Sidhi, astrology, numerology, palm reading etc... Guru Ji does not say these things don't exist, Guru Ji says they are of no avail, as you are putting your faith in the pointless exercises which ultimately aren't going to help you to remember Vaheguru and achieve mukti.

And Rehit Maryada says it's a no go.
*


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## Randip Singh (Jul 24, 2007)

Sukhmani Brar said:


> But the lady told me specific things. How is that possible to happen.


 

My experince is that these people are confidence tricksters. They are very perceptive and clever people who use many means to find out things about people.

I stay away from such people and the Sikh has no need for such things.


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## amitverma (Jul 24, 2007)

It appears that the lady from Egypt knows how to read "aura". There is an aura around all of us which tells about us, our life - past and future. Hope that answers your question.


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## kamaljit singh (Jul 24, 2007)

These things all exist but only where there is no naam.  The light of naam shatters all illousions.  this kind of debate for a gursikh is fruitless.  To a gursikh this body is a dress, this world is but a layover, everything is tamasha. only truth that exists is wahaguru's naam.
waha guru ji ka khalsa 
waha guru ji ki fateh


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## Astroboy (Jul 24, 2007)

*Wanted fortune teller a step ahead of police*[SIZE=-1]
By HAYLEY MICK
Toronto Globe and Mail[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]February 27, 2006
Monday[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
TORONTO - She is a fortune teller who reels in the broken-hearted with talk of evil spells and promises of rekindled romance. Then, police say, she takes their money and disappears.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Last month, Sophie Evon, 76, pulled her best vanishing act on the Canadian authorities. She skipped town just before she was to be extradited to the United States from Toronto to face first-degree fraud charges for allegedly defrauding a heartbroken Seattle woman of $220,000.[/SIZE]


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## amitverma (Jul 25, 2007)

my dear sikh friend, i was talking about naam simran only. I donot know what stage of bhakti are you? but once u reach a certain stage you will be able to see and read auras. Naam simran is the only way to reach this stage. You are right in saying that the ultimate truth is Naam Simran. Also, this naam simran can be of waheguru, raam, jesus etc.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 25, 2007)

amitverma said:


> It appears that the lady from Egypt knows how to read "aura". There is an aura around all of us which tells about us, our life - past and future. Hope that answers your question.


 
What aura is this? Is this like the Aura Borellis? Is it something mentioned in Bani or the Vedas?


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## simpy (Jul 25, 2007)

*Amit  Ji,   these days  one can even take pictures of one's aura*


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2007)

There are even people who claim to read the auras of carrots and potatoes. Kirlean photography is used to show "objectively" that such things exist. This is a new age concept that has been discussed since I was a teenager. It sounds mysterious and therefore significant. A perfect way to trick people into paying people who claim to read "auras" a lot of money to diagnose diseases they do not have, provide them with useless treatments, deprive them of valid medical attention, and relieve them of lots of money.

To quote others in the forum - Just my 2 cents.


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 25, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Akashdeep Singh Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful references from the Gurus.

"aaNt saytee naak pakrheh soojh-tay tin lo-a."
"magar paachhai kachh na soojhai ayhu padam alo-a." SGGS 663-1
"One holds the nose with his two fingers and thumb
and claims to see three worlds. But it is very astonishing
that he does not know what is behind his back."

I am not sure if this Vaak is about an astrologer. Please explain why did you interpret it so.

**************

"gan gan jotak kaaNdee keenee."
"parhai sunaavai tat na cheenee."
"sabhsai oopar gur sabad beechaar."
"hor kathnee bada-o na saglee chhaar." SGGS 904-13
Astrologer counts and recounts and prepare the horoscope.
Then he reads it to his clients, but he does not recognize the essence. 
The highest of all is the contemplation of the way of Sabad. 
Other deliberations are all ashes.

Guru Nanak Dev Jee is suggesting that contemplation of the Sabad is above all activity. Why some understand that rejecting and hating a science like astrology is most important from the above Sabad. Please explain it.

**************

"man kee patree vaachnee sukhee hoo sukh saar."
"so baraahman bhalaa aakhee-ai je boojhai barahm beechaar." SGGS 1093-19.
Read the horoscope of your mind to find the highest joy of the joys. 
The one, who resolves Brhama-contemplation, calls him the noble Brahman.

All true Sikhs should follow the Guru's suggestion. They should learn to read the horoscope of mind.

**************

Quote "Now my question for your concience - If fortune - telling is possible than would not that mean that your future is pretty much already fixed and decided?"
Please ponder. Gurdev is singing.
"jo kichh paa-i-aa so aykaa vaar." SGGS 7-5.
Whatever HE puts, that is for once.

**************

Dear Aad002 Jee, Kirlian photography has nothing to do with real auras. Every person or existence is dissipating and receiving energy constantly. Its strength is varying every moment. An aura is not this energy.
Once I asked a lady who is earning through Kirlian photography if the photographs were of receiving energy or the dissipating energy of an object. She promised to forward the question to the camera manufacturer.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2007)

Balbir,

You said

Dear Aad002 Jee, Kirlian photography has nothing to do with real auras. Every person or existence is dissipating and receiving energy constantly. Its strength is varying every moment. An aura is not this energy. Once I asked a lady who is earning through Kirlian photography if the photographs were of receiving energy or the dissipating energy of an object. She promised to forward the question to the camera manufacturer.

Oh I agree that it is a joke. A fraud.


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## GURVINDER (Aug 7, 2007)

Fortune Trellers Are A Kind Of Psycologists Who Will Tell Everything Of Yours By Observing Your State Of Mind So Thise Is Not A Kind Of Magic But An Trick To Make Other's Fool


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2007)

Amazing isn't it?

Gurvinder ji,

Our guru's made the supreme sacrifice to rid people of the fear and slavery of superstition. They were clear, clear, clear. And who is listening?


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## Kirpal Singh (Aug 8, 2007)

Sukhmani Brar said:


> I often get confused, whether to believe on the people who tell fortune or not. I have never been able to find an answer because there are some people who have been able to tell what is going to happen in my life, what happened in my past life and what I am thinking to do. For instance, this lady from Egypt whom I never met before told me everything about what is going in my life. And everything she told was true. (it is not her profession though, she never does it for money)
> 
> What does Sikhism say about this. I would really appreciate if someone could help me find an answer.
> 
> ...


Dear Sukhmani,let us ask your question from our Guru Granth Sahib!      In Japji Sahib,At the end of ist verse,Guru Nanak asks a question himself"Kiv Sachiara.....," & in next line answers it"HUKAM  Rajai Chalna,Nanak Likhya Naal"Then Guru elaborates on concept of HUKAM in the second verse.Please obtain a book"Seekers Path"by Sohan Singh for more detailed study of japji Sahib in English.In conclusion,to live our lives in accordance with HUKAM,we must reject dependence on other things  including astrology even if it is correct.    Kirpal Singh


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## Akashdeep Singh (Aug 8, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all and Akashdeep Singh Jee!
> 
> Thanks for the wonderful references from the Gurus.
> ...



*Akashdeep Singh*: This quote is pertaining to the practice of the people who used to hold their breath by squeezing their nose and claim that they can see the 3 worlds like this and tell what is happening/going to happen. They were "future predictors" of one kind. Gurbani ridicules such people by saying that they claim of seeing the 3 worlds when they cannot even tell what is right behind their back. 



Balbir Singh said:


> **************
> 
> "gan gan jotak kaaNdee keenee."
> "parhai sunaavai tat na cheenee."
> ...



*Akashdeep Singh*: Yes contemplation on "sabad" is being referred to here as higher than involving any such activity like getting horoscopes prepared. I don't think astrology a perfect science. If every thing is fixed and predetermined, what is the role of the humans? My belief is that this cosmos is knitted into a "Hukam" which can be perceived like a very large mathematical equation with a lot of variables representing the fields whose values are determined by human acts. The RHS of the equation could be perceived as the output of your life. What (if any) could be the limits of this equation? I guess this is a long long time question to ponder. I guess for now it seems that even if you try your best you cannot perceivably put the values in the variables so that you life end up in another universe :roll:. .......



Balbir Singh said:


> **************
> 
> "man kee patree vaachnee sukhee hoo sukh saar."
> "so baraahman bhalaa aakhee-ai je boojhai barahm beechaar." SGGS 1093-19.
> ...



*Akashdeep Singh*: It would be wrong to take the word "horoscope" in the quote above in a strict literary sense. Punjabi is in general a metaphorical language and one can note that in day to day language. The above quote suggests to be honor your mind and contemplate to find what would be the "real joy". Off course! that is being god like or knowing the slightest truth pertaining to Akaal and living accordingly. 




Balbir Singh said:


> **************
> 
> Quote "Now my question for your concience - If fortune - telling is possible than would not that mean that your future is pretty much already fixed and decided?"
> Please ponder. Gurdev is singing.
> ...



*Akashdeep Singh*: Yes, but do not perceive it in a way that Akaal has already fixed what you get in your life and what you do not. There is no micro-managing of your life done whatsoever. We are living under the "Hukam" and that "Hukam" drives the path of your life according to what you input to the "Hukam".

Its appears correct to think though, that "Hukam" is what you cannot change. Being not able/allowed to change the "law" does not mean that it is pre-decided whether you will abide by it to live in unison with the law or will violate it. Why would Akaal be interested in producing "passive" organisms whose acts/future is already known? This would be a boring show for Akaal as well, ... isn't it? :roll:


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 9, 2007)

Kirpal Singh said:


> Please obtain a book"Seekers Path"by Sohan Singh for more detailed study of japji Sahib in English. In conclusion,to live our lives in accordance with HUKAM,we must reject dependence on other things including astrology even if it is correct. Kirpal Singh


 
Mr.Kirpal Singh Ji, Can you advise me how can I get copy of above Book written by Sohan Singh and oblige.
Regards Sahni Mohinder


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 11, 2007)

> Quote "Now my question for your conscience - If fortune - telling is possible than would not that mean that your future is pretty much already fixed and decided?"



Astrology is a science in its own right. It is due to lack of understanding that it is being ridiculed today. Time and again I see people making bland statements on issues like Yoga and Astrology. Are we denying that the Moon has no impact on the Earth. If Moon can impact the behavioural changes of humans then the other planets in the solar system too can have a similar impact. A typical example is when the moon in transit goes through the house where planet mars is situated in ones horoscope the respective female has her periods. Her period (for a healthy woman) lasts for at least @ 2.25 days and then they subside. This is because the moon stays in one house for approximately that time. This is a well known fact.

With reference to the above question, ones “Hukam” is written with oneself at the time of birth. Bani confirms that. Indeed ones Hukam and fortune are fixed for the term based on your past karmas. Your family surroundings are chosen where you will do your Dharm di Kamai for payback. You can exercise the choice if you want to obey the Hukam or not. The science of astrology allows one to predict (a very accurate prediction up to 98%) ones future. All cannot be predictive as some cards are in the hands of the divine. 

Guru ji have ridiculed the wrongful use of this art just as the misuse of Yoga to misguide innocent people and lead them astray. Guru ji has rightfully said that "sabhsai oopar gur sabad beechaar." But that is only true for the one who really follows Gurus teachings with Tann and Mann.

If one seriously follows Gurus teaching then astrology is secondry. Having said that Guru ji has implemented some of the remedial actions as part of the Sikhs life style. 

Lets first look at what the astrologer asks you to do. (a serious Astrologer)

Dhaan to the poor – A Sikh is to take out Dasband for the needy.
Visit a Holy Shrine – A Sikh is to visit and pay respect to our Guru Daily.
Seva at the Gurudwara or an elderly couple also forms part of the remedial. Etc.

All this without the worry of some pandit manipulating money out of you under false pretences.

Guru Pyaareo!! Please take your blind folds off if you wish to progress in your spirituality. Do not create a fence around you and for those innocent victims that happen to browse through this site.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## adeep646 (Aug 11, 2007)

The Lines on the hands have to do with this body and not the Mann. 

think of it as a driver and a car. the car is leased and will have to be returned. it is preordained where it will go, the car is mostly controlled by the 5 thieves ,accidents and sratches and the Paint Job is all up to God. 

the driver will have to answer for the toughts he takes.
"Lehke Vat Chalaye, Lekhe Sun Vekao || Lekhe Sah Lavaie ,Parie Ke Puchan Jao"  meaning everything is recorded what you think when you are going on the road and what you are listen to. you have ability to ignore what a person is saying if it is Ninda. "Lekhe Sah Lavaie"  your every breathe is written  after you have taken it what will you get from asking a educated person? 
you should visit Prabh Milne Ka Chao or Simran.info these sites have very usefull infomation on how to live your life in accordance with what the Gurbani Guru is telling us. Rehat MArida is unclear and has been distorted because man wrote it not the Guru.  the Guru is telling us to Follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and pray to Waheguru with every breathe.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 12, 2007)

> The Lines on the hands have to do with this body and not the Mann.



But look closely at them. They change with your progress. If the left hand matches that on the right in terms of lines then you have been obeying your “Hukam” , otherwise not. Check your own progress.



> think of it as a driver and a car. the car is leased and will have to be returned. it is preordained where it will go, at what speed and what it will encounter accidents and sratches and the Paint Job is all up to God.



The car is indeed leased but there is no binding on the condition in which it has to be returned. The journey is preordained but the speed is not. You only get one full tank of fuel. If this car is not driven well it may not reach its preordained destiny. It is all down to the driver how he operates it. That is the choice given. The speed of travel is again in the hands of the driver but what is more important is, Do you understand the route?. If the route is not understood and you are also a new driver, like a lost sheep you keep following another, you will end up going round in circles because the other is lost too and run out of both fuel and time.  This is the way present Sikhi is going.

If you are a wise driver and know your limitations and your “Hukam” (route), you will travel further each time and not waste time on following others imaginations.




> the driver will have to answer for the toughs he takes.
> "Lehke Vat Chalaye, Lekhe Sun Vekao || Lekhe Sah Lavaie ,Parie Ke Puchan Jao" meaning everything is recorded what you think when you are going on the road and what you are listen to. you have ability to ignore what a person is saying if it is Ninda. "Lekhe Sah Lavaie" your every breathe is written after you have taken it what will you get from asking a educated person?



The driver is indeed answerable.

Sirīrāg mehlā 1.Lėkẖai bolaṇ bolṇā lėkẖai kẖāṇā kẖā&shy;o.Lėkẖai vāt cẖalā&shy;ī&shy;ā lėkẖai suṇ vėkẖā&shy;o.Lėkẖai sāh lavā&shy;ī&shy;ahi paṛė ke pucẖẖaṇ jā&shy;o. ||1||

Siree Raag, First Mehl:As it is pre-ordained, people speak their words. As it is pre-ordained, they consume their food.As it is pre-ordained, they walk along the way. As it is pre-ordained, they see and hear.As it is pre-ordained, they draw their breath. Why should I go and ask the scholars about this? ||1||
The above is our ideal. This is true for one who understands his “Hukam”. But there is also a choice give to the human species that one exercises individually by the order of the five vices

The journey is a very long one. But if you feel lost (due to the illusion of Maya) on your journey do you not stop and ask someone for confirmation. Now thereafter it is up to you if you believe in the advice or not but the facility is provided by nature. Information is available on the route you are travelling. It is your luck if you get a good informative. Our life is pre-ordained, I agree but we also have the choice to take a shortcut based on our understanding of Gurus message. That is If we can understand it.




> “……….everything is recorded what you think when you are going on the road and what you are listen to.”


 
This has no impact on your present journey. And yes, You have the choice to ignore all advice if you wish. But Ninda can be a blessing in disguise. Feel free to do as much Ninda of me as you or anyones elses heart desires. Ninda cuts down the difficulties, the cob-webs in ones journey. Ninda tells you where you stand, it is a check of your progress. If one is disturbed by Ninda then one is still Egoistic.
Incidently ones count of breath is pre-determined i.e. decided before it is taken (Hukam is preset). Now it is down to you if you want to extend the duration by the assistance of Yoga if your remaining journey is short and you do not wish to come back and start all over with a new body. The facility is there use it or abuse it. Charges will be made for this service. (This is the service that the Yogis abused).



> you should visit Prabh Milne Ka Chao or Simran.info these sites have very usefull infomation on how to live your life in accordance with what the Gurbani Guru is telling us. Rehat MArida is unclear and has been distorted because man wrote it not the Guru. the Guru is telling us to Follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and pray to Waheguru with every breathe


.


Firstly, If one is still developing the Chao and have not started the journey then it is a sad state of affairs. And secondly, are these instructions from one who has achieved that state or is that his projection of another traveller. Just as the Rehat Maryada is Human based and distorted so can the projections of Simran.info. Do you have full faith in him? One needs to remove the cob-webs (our preconceptions) out of ones mind and not introduce new inhabitants. Just follow your heart and do Naam Simran with love and faith and realise yourself. It is all within you.

I think enough is said here.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## adeep646 (Aug 12, 2007)

> Sirīrāg mehlā 1.Lėkẖai bolaṇ bolṇā lėkẖai kẖāṇā kẖā&shy;o.Lėkẖai vāt cẖalā&shy;ī&shy;ā lėkẖai suṇ vėkẖā&shy;o.Lėkẖai sāh lavā&shy;ī&shy;ahi paṛė ke pucẖẖaṇ jā&shy;o. ||1||
> 
> Siree Raag, First Mehl:As it is pre-ordained, people speak their words. As it is pre-ordained, they consume their food.As it is pre-ordained, they walk along the way. As it is pre-ordained, they see and hear.As it is pre-ordained, they draw their breath. Why should I go and ask the scholars about this? ||1||


 here is the 1st problem. 
you have misunderstood the Guru. Lekhe is refering to being written , as your SWAS is written when you talk walk eat. The question is where is your MANN at this time. The Gurbani most of the time is talking to our Mann. and this Salok  is not refering people but it addresses you- "Baba Maya  Rachna Doh" and " Jithe Beh Samjaiye" where your accounts of your Swas are examined.

because this was *translated* by someone who read the Gurbani Guru liike a text book and did not do simran and practically follow the methods the Guru tells us they are unable to properly translate it. 
if you were to read this Salok further comes "Ande Nam Visarie Nah Tis eh Na Oh " again they are telling you what to do. 
in another Chapter the Guru Ji says "Lik Nam Likh Salah Lik Lik Ant na Paravar || Baba eh Lehke Lik Jan, Jithe Lekha Mangie Thithe Hoi Sacha Nishan, Jite Mile Vadia Sad Kushia Sad CHOA" 
meaning that your should write Nam and speak of the qualities of Godand they are also telling how often to write it "Likh ANt na Paravar" ther should be no end to your writing this with your every breathe, 
Baba- you should know that when your time is up where your Lekhe will be weighed and you will be get what you deserve. if you wrote Nam and did Simran and Jap and Path then  it clearly states  you will be rewarded. this is how the Game goes.



> The journey is a very long one. But if you feel lost (due to the illusion of Maya) on your journey do you not stop and ask someone for confirmation.


 second this Salok is refering to why ask someone that doen't know himself a Tregun Scholar that his will have to answer himeself where he spendth his breath.
There are other Tuks where the Guru Says to do Sangat to gain knowlege of this and learn how to Write in accordance to the Guru.

Also the journey in the foreign country can be as long as Waheguru will it to be for some a day other a jug. what you meant probably is your Journey has BEEN a long one. you have traveled through 3 Jug and this is now the 4th and Final. so make it worth it.

The Jamm will comefor you and weigh your accounts. "Ayi Katin Doot Jam Lenna , Kia Te Katia Kia Gavaia Chal Sitab DIwan Bulaya" 

" NINDA "

i would like to consider that i try to fully understand the Gurbani and not jump to conclusions. what i say is carefully weighed because my Guru Says "Sagal Bolan Ke Mahi Vichar" think before you speak. you obviously have something against me or are just bored this can be deducted from the tone of your article.

Ninda is a very big SIN  and the GURU tells us " Ninda Bhalli Kise Ki Nahi."
and " Jis NAr ki Dubida Nah JAi Dharam Rai DIs De Sajai" you understand That Waheguru is within every one and everything is his Doing and Creation then to speak badly of it is counted against you.

and the Guru says what will happen to those "Nanak Fika Bolie, DHan Man Fika Hoi." speaking badly you body and mind is polluted.
"Fika Moork Akia , Bhanna Le Sajai" - The fool takes a punishment for speaking filth 


i think you should read the gurbani more. and go into Siege and then Vichar it to fully understand.


Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki FAteh.


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## adeep646 (Aug 14, 2007)

Also the Fact that you Said the Hukam is on these Lines should be NOTEd.

The Guru Ji says the Hukam is Nam."Eko Nam Hukam He Satgur Dia bujai Jio"

and the Hukam is Within Us. " Nau Nid Antar Prabh Ka Nam dehi Me is Ka Bisram."

"Jo Brahmande Soi Pinde Jo Koje So Pave" What is out in the Universes is within this body. those who search (by Guru's methods) will find this.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 14, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Adeep646 Jee!

Quote "Ninda is a very big SIN and the GURU tells us ' Ninda Bhalli Kise Ki Nahi.'
and ' Jis NAr ki Dubida Nah JAi Dharam Rai DIs De Sajai' you understand That Waheguru is within every one and everything is his Doing and Creation then to speak badly of it is counted against you."
May I ask why they should train Sikhs to do Ninda of astrology (vidya) and astrologers?
Everybody is running his business on earth according to God's WILL. One should not envy others. 


Please ponder. These are the words from Gurdev about a virtuous and wise astrologer.
"aa-i-aa lagan ganaa-ay hirdai Dhan omaahee-aa bal raam jee-o."
The calculated moment has come. That overfills heart with wealth Bali Raam jee-o.

"pandit paaDhay aan patee bahi vaachaa-ee-aa bal raam jee-o."
The Pandits and astrologers have come, to sit and consult the almanac Bali Raam jee-o.

"patee vaachaa-ee man vajee vaDhaa-ee jab saajan sunay ghar aa-ay."
They consult the horoscope. Congratulations sounded in mind when Saajan heard coming home.

"gunee gi-aanee bahi mataa pakaa-i-aa fayray tat divaa-ay." SGGS 773-14.
The virtuous and wise men sat and decided to do the marriage immediately.

No one should miss the chance of consulting the virtuous and wise men, in my experience.


Balbir Singh


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## adeep646 (Aug 14, 2007)

This is the same problem with the last guy. this person that has translated the Gurbani into English is mistakened. Please do not take everything that is translated into English as true meaning word for word. 
Bani can only be understood by a Gurmukh " Bani Virlo Vichar Si je Koi Gurmukh Hoi" 

if you want to undertand what is written goto Simra.info or Prabhmilnekachao.com these to sites give the Akath Katha. but you must listen to all the Katha properly. i have decided to limit my time on this site because it takes away from my personal duties. thefore limiting the anwsers. go to the site to learn.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:
Sirīrāg mehlā 1.Lėkẖai bolaṇ bolṇā lėkẖai kẖāṇā kẖā&shy;o.Lėkẖai vāt cẖalā&shy;ī&shy;ā lėkẖai suṇ vėkẖā&shy;o.Lėkẖai sāh lavā&shy;ī&shy;ahi paṛė ke pucẖẖaṇ jā&shy;o. ||1||Siree Raag, First Mehl:As it is pre-ordained, people speak their words. As it is pre-ordained, they consume their food.As it is pre-ordained, they walk along the way. As it is pre-ordained, they see and hear.As it is pre-ordained, they draw their breath. Why should I go and ask the scholars about this? ||1||

here is the 1st problem. 
you have misunderstood the Guru. Lekhe is refering to being written , as your SWAS is written when you talk walk eat. The question is where is your MANN at this time. The Gurbani most of the time is talking to our Mann. and this Salok is not refering people but it addresses you- "Baba Maya Rachna Doh" and " Jithe Beh Samjaiye" where your accounts of your Swas are examined.
I feel indebted to you for pointing out my weaknesses. I concur with you that “ one who has not done enough Simran and practically followed the methods the Guru tells us they are unable to properly translate it.” And I also agree with you that the quotes I put forward ware not translated correctly. My sincere apologies for that. I accept my error.
Having said that, I totally disagree with your interpretations as well.
Lekhe is refering to being written. RUBBISH
lyKY   = Lekhai has been written (Do laam - Past tense)  
ilK y = Likhe  being written (Ek laam - Present  tense)

*I am afraid veer ji you Viakaran is Very POOR. *(Please do not give up your full time job)
Kwxw Kwau = khannaKhau (Past tense) will eat food. suix vyKwa = Sunn Vekhau (Past tense) will hear. vwt clweIAw = Vaat Challeya (Past tense) the way it has been instigated.
lyKY bolxu bolxw lyKY Kwxw Kwau ] 
As it is pre-ordained, he will speak the words (his speech) and as it is pre-ordained, he will consume the food. 
You may substitute “I” or “You” in place of “He” if it suits you.
bwbw mwieAw rcnw Dohu ] 
O Brother, the splendour of Maya is deceptive.
jIvx mrxw jwie kY eyQY KwjY kwil ] ijQY bih smJweIAY iqQY koie n cilE nwil] rovx vwly jyqVy siB bMnih pMf prwil ]2]

From birth to death you have here pursued you life collecting worldly things. Where (in this world) I sit and explain to you that nothing goes along with you hereafter. Those who weep and wail might just as well all tie a bundle of straw. ||2||

Your must learn to read and understand bani in the right context. It is quite clear from the above what message Guru ji is giving us.

because this was *translated* by someone who read the Gurbani Guru liike a text book and did not do simran and practically follow the methods the Guru tells us they are unable to properly translate it. 
if you were to read this Salok further comes "Ande Nam Visarie Nah Tis eh Na Oh " again they are telling you what to do. 
Need I say more, my explanation above speaks for itself.

in another Chapter the Guru Ji says "Lik Nam Likh Salah Lik Lik Ant na Paravar || Baba eh Lehke Lik Jan, Jithe Lekha Mangie Thithe Hoi Sacha Nishan, Jite Mile Vadia Sad Kushia Sad CHOA" 
meaning that your should write Nam and speak of the qualities of Godand they are also telling how often to write it "Likh ANt na Paravar" ther should be no end to your writing this with your every breathe, 
Baba- you should know that when your time is up where your Lekhe will be weighed and you will be get what you deserve. if you wrote Nam and did Simran and Jap and Path then it clearly states you will be rewarded. this is how the Game goes.
jwil mohu Gis msu kir miq kwgdu kir swru ] Bwau klm kir icqu lyKwrI gur puiC ilKu bIcwru ] ilKu nwmu swlwh ilKu ilKu AMqu n pwrwvwru ]1] 
Burn your emotional attachment, and grind it into ink, transform your intelligence into the purest of paper.Make the love of the Lord your pen, mind the scribe and write God's deliberation after consulting the Guru. Pen down the praises of God's Name and write over and over again that “He has no end and limit”.
bwbw eyhu lyKw iliK jwxu ] ijQY lyKw mMgIAY iqQY hoie scw nIswxu ]1] rhwau ] 
O Brother, learn how to write this account, where this account is called for, it will serve as a True Mark. ||1||Pause||
You have confused yourself here again. Read everything in the right context and not a tukh from here and there like the ………………..chap you keep advertising and make up an impressive story. I can already see the damaging results in you thoughts. Note how confused you are. 
Here Guru ji is telling us how to live our “Hukam” and not to write one.
(Dhanne Dhanne te Mohar Lagge Aunde Hai. Khaan Vele Nahi Lagde) 

I can see you are trying to indirectly answer my question on Saas Giraas. Please do not strain yourself. It is beyond you. And a player who has not player this game yet cannot advise the other.

Quote:
The journey is a very long one. But if you feel lost (due to the illusion of Maya) on your journey do you not stop and ask someone for confirmation.

second this Salok is refering to why ask someone that doen't know himself a Tregun Scholar that his will have to answer himeself where he spendth his breath.
There are other Tuks where the Guru Says to do Sangat to gain knowlege of this and learn how to Write in accordance to the Guru.

Also the journey in the foreign country can be as long as Waheguru will it to be for some a day other a jug. what you meant probably is your Journey has BEEN a long one. you have traveled through 3 Jug and this is now the 4th and Final. so make it worth it.

The Jamm will comefor you and weigh your accounts. "Ayi Katin Doot Jam Lenna , Kia Te Katia Kia Gavaia Chal Sitab DIwan Bulaya" 



Delving into responding the above is futile. You are lost the plot.


" NINDA "

i would like to consider that i try to fully understand the Gurbani and not jump to conclusions. what i say is carefully weighed because my Guru Says "Sagal Bolan Ke Mahi Vichar" think before you speak. you obviously have something against me or are just bored this can be deducted from the tone of your article.


Understanding comes with the Grace of God and is also pre-ordained. Keep practising you have a long way to go. Until such time sit and learn. Let me make this clear, I do not have anything against anyone. If you feel that way then it is your weakness and Yes I was rather getting bored driving your car anology. 


Ninda is a very big SIN and the GURU tells us " Ninda Bhalli Kise Ki Nahi."
and " Jis NAr ki Dubida Nah JAi Dharam Rai DIs De Sajai" you understand That Waheguru is within every one and everything is his Doing and Creation then to speak badly of it is counted against you.
and the Guru says what will happen to those "Nanak Fika Bolie, DHan Man Fika Hoi." speaking badly you body and mind is polluted.
"Fika Moork Akia , Bhanna Le Sajai" - The fool takes a punishment for speaking filth.

I agree with the above. But No Ninda is being done on you. I am trying to correct your mistakes and mis-understanding. Actually I am in search of a True Gursikh but everytime I come across a claimant I just find a sheep under a Lions furcoat.No hard feelings. Know the Game first, Do not pretend to know it. One has less chances to deceive the other but most often one deceives himself without realising that he is doing it. First know thyself, know the five thiefs that puts one up to this mischielf and then you will see and understand the true path. I am not saying this, this is the Essence of Gurbani.

i think you should read the gurbani more. and go into Siege and then Vichar it to fully understand.

And yes I will take your advice. I am wasting my time here and can be doing something better for myself for a change.

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki FAteh.

And I recipricate the same to you.

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki FAteh.


I am leaving some translations for you. Please ponder over them. If you wish.

Page 15

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] 

Siree Raag, First Mehl:

lyKY bolxu bolxw lyKY Kwxw Kwau ] lyKY vwt clweIAw lyKY suix vyKwau] lyKY swh lvweIAih pVy ik puCx jwau]
As it is pre-ordained, he will speak the words (his speech) and as it is pre-ordained, he will consume the food. As it is pre-ordained, his life journey will proceed and as it is pre-ordained, he will hear and see. As it is pre-ordained, he will breathe. What would he go and ask the scholar? ||1||

bwbw mwieAw rcnw Dohu ] AMDY nwmu ivswirAw nw iqsu eyh n Ehu ]  1] rhwau ]
O Baba, the splendor of Maya is deceptive. The blind (spiritually) man has forgotten God's Name (whilst absorbed in the splendour of Maya); He neither abides in peace in this world nor in the next. Pause.  

jIvx mrxw jwie kY eyQY KwjY kwil ] ijQY bih smJweIAY iqQY koie n cilE nwil] rovx vwly jyqVy siB bMnih pMf prwil ]2]
From birth to death you have pursued you life collecting worldly things. Where (in this world) I sit and explain to you that nothing goes along with you hereafter. Those who weep and wail might just as well all tie a bundle of straw. ||2||

sBu ko AwKY bhuqu bhuqu Git n AwKY koie ] kImiq iknY n pweIAw khix n vfw hoie ] swcw swhbu eyku qU hoir jIAw kyqy loA ] 3] 
All are asking for more and more, none is asking for less. None has ascertained the worth of his giving. No one becomes great by ones own confession. You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3||

(By asking for more and more (begging from God) no one has ever been satisfied. How much God gives us no one has ever put a price on it. A beggar can never call himself rich) 

nIcw AMdir nIc jwiq nIcI hU Aiq nIcu ] nwnku iqn kY sMig swiQ vifAw isau ikAw rIs ] ijQY nIc smwlIAin iqQY ndir qyrI bKsIs ]4]3]
The lowest among the low caste, rather the lowest of the low. Nanak seeks the company of those. Why should he rival the great?  In such a place Where the lowly are cared for, there the Blessings of Your Glance of Grace rains down. ||4||3||   


Page 16 SGGS 
isrIrwgu mhlu 1 ] 
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
jwil mohu Gis msu kir miq kwgdu kir swru ] Bwau klm kir icqu lyKwrI gur puiC ilKu bIcwru ] ilKu nwmu swlwh ilKu ilKu AMqu n pwrwvwru ]1] 
Burn your emotional attachment, and grind it into ink, transform your intelligence into the purest of paper.Make the love of the Lord your pen, mind the scribe and write God's deliberation after consulting the Guru. Pen down the praises of God's Name and write over and over again that “He has no end and limit”.
bwbw eyhu lyKw iliK jwxu ] ijQY lyKw mMgIAY iqQY hoie scw nIswxu ]1] rhwau ] 
O Brother, learn how to write this account, where this account is called for, it will serve as a True Mark. ||1||Pause||
ijQY imlih  vifAweIAw sd KusIAw sd cwau ] iqn muiK itky inklih ijn min scw nwau ] krim imlY  qw pweIAY nwhI glI vwau duAwau ]2] 
There, where greatness, eternal peace and everlasting joy are bestowed,   the faces of those are anointed with the Mark of Grace whose minds are attuned to the True Name. Such honors are  bestowed by Grace of God (on one who has earned the Grace) and not by idle words. ||2||    
ieik Awvih ieik jwih auiT rKIAih nwv slwr ] ieik  aupwey mMgqy ieknw vfy drvwr ] AgY gieAw jwxIAY ivxu nwvY vykwr ]3] 
One comes (takes birth), and one departs (dies), even the one who gives himself a high status.   Some are born beggars, and some into with high status (Rich family). By going to the world beyond hereafter, one shall realize that without the Naam, it is all useless. ||3||
BY qyrY fru Aglw  Kip Kip iCjY dyh ] nwv ijnw sulqwn Kwn hody ifTy Kyh ] nwnk auTI cilAw siB kUVy quty  nyh ]4]6]
In fear of your wrath I am terrified and my body is wasting away.Those who are known as Sultans and Khans, I have seen them being reduced to dust in the end.Nanak says, when the mortal rises to depart (from this world), all the false affections are sundered.|4||6||


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## adeep646 (Aug 15, 2007)

Waheguru ji,
 you have said a mouthful. but you are still getting lost in the translation. you have put up 101 other posts. i would be more careful.


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