# Akal Takhat Says No To Kirtan Sewa By Women At Darbar Sahib



## dalbirk (Oct 13, 2008)

*The demand to allow baptized Sikh women to perform kirtan and seva inside the sanctum sanctorum of the Golden Temple raised a controversy again at a seminar organized by the Global United Sikh Women Organization here today. *When Dr Mohinder Kaur Gill, a Sikh scholar, wanted the inclusion of baptised women among Panj Piyare ( Five Beloved Ones), Jathedar, Akal Takht, Giani Gurbachan Singh chided her for raising such sensitive issues publicly. He, however, said such matters should have been taken up by the sub-committee of SGPC representatives, Akal Takht, Sikh intellectuals and baptised women.

Rajinder Singh Mehta, member, executive committee, SGPC, at the function said women could not be allowed to participate in Panj Piyare or perform kirtan/seva due to a variety of reasons. He said the Almighty had differentiated man from woman at the time of birth, hence nobody should raise such a demand. 

Dr Mohinder Kaur, contradicting her own point, said the SGPC had given certain administrative reasons for disallowing women to clean the sanctum sanctorum or carry Guru Granth Sahib in a palanquin, but there was no valid reason to deny them a chance to perform kirtan. 

Bibi Jagir Kaur, after taking over as SGPC chief in 1999, had announced to treat baptised women on a par with men for discharging religious duties in the Golden Temple. Earlier, then acting Jathedar, Akal Takht, Prof Manjit Singh had taken a jatha of baptised women to perform seva in the sanctum sanctorum, along with wife of Harbhajan Singh Yogi. Later, notwithstanding her announcement on February 3, 2003, Bibi Kiranjot Kaur, a former general secretary, SGPC, could not arrange kirtan in the sanctum sanctorum. 
Gender discrimination in the Golden Temple was highlighted at the international level on February 15, 2003, when two England-based Sikh women were allegedly assaulted by SGPC sevadars during ‘sukhasan’ (carrying Guru Granth Sahib in palanquin) in the Golden Temple . 
Earlier, at the seminar Dr Upinderjit Kaur, education minister, said to preserve moral and ethical values in society, women should have to do introspection to awaken society ethically, morally and artistically by eradicating social evils. Women and organisations, including GND University, Punjabi University, SGPC, Kendri Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Chandigarh, and Naad Pargaas Sri Amritsar participated in the seminar. The minister congratulated Dr Jasbir Kaur, president, and said such seminars would help form an ideal society.

What is members' opinion on this . Please share .


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## Randip Singh (Oct 13, 2008)

dalbirk said:


> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab
> 
> *Takht chief frowns on sewa by women *
> *Varinder Walia*
> ...


 
I cannot believe when our Guru's have granted TOTAL equality to women in Sikhi we are arguing about such issues?

This is just plain ridiculous. The Takht needs to wake up.


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## amritpalsingh (Oct 13, 2008)

when women can do kirtan at other places, why not in Darbar sahib? either they should be allowed everywhere or nowhere. 

what is the reason for this difference ...


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## pk70 (Oct 13, 2008)

*Where is any reference in Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji where it is hinted the women should be kept out of Guru Seva. History proves contrary to it. Shame on these so called "Sikh leaders" who decide against the religion they are trying to represent. They are not even worth to be called Guru followers as Guru says*
*ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥
नारी पुरख सबाई लोइ ॥३॥( M-1 SGGS 223)
Nārī purakẖ sabā▫ī lo▫e. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining. ||3||*:yes:


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## Astroboy (Oct 13, 2008)

Page 599, Line 2
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
गुरमुखि एक द्रिसटि करि देखहु घटि घटि जोति समोई जीउ ॥२॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of *equality*; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## robinkhalsa (Oct 14, 2008)

randip singh said:


> I cannot believe when our Guru's have granted TOTAL equality to women in Sikhi we are arguing about such issues?
> 
> This is just plain ridiculous. The Takht needs to wake up.



where is the equality regarding this matter? , show me a incident of equality?


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## Randip Singh (Oct 14, 2008)

robinkhalsa said:


> where is the equality regarding this matter? , show me a incident of equality?



scroll up and see what our Guru says on this matter. If you are saying women are not equal to men then that is not a Sikh principle.


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## Ravinderahl (Oct 19, 2008)

I think the decision is abysmal.


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## eropa234 (Oct 19, 2008)

Decession lack any reasoning.


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## avinash (Oct 20, 2008)

Gurfateh to all members,

As per my point of view, Sewa by baptized women at Golden Temple must be allowed as it will lead to give equal rights between baptized men and women at all levels and among the khalsa people, followers of Guru Granth Sahib ji. 
In our gurbani it has also mentioned that, "Sou kyon Manda Aakhiya Jit Jamey Rajan"
So, it was request to all members as well as sikh community to think about this point seriously and let hide the discrimination in actual terms.

Gurfateh,
Avinash kaur.

:happy:


dalbirk said:


> The demand to allow baptised Sikh women to perform kirtan and seva inside the sanctum sanctorum of the Golden Temple raised a controversy again at a seminar organised by the Global United Sikh Women Organisation here today.
> 
> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab
> 
> ...


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## Randip Singh (Oct 23, 2008)

avinash said:


> Gurfateh to all members,
> 
> As per my point of view, Sewa by baptized women at Golden Temple must be allowed as it will lead to give equal rights between baptized men and women at all levels and among the khalsa people, followers of Guru Granth Sahib ji.
> In our gurbani it has also mentioned that, "Sou kyon Manda Aakhiya Jit Jamey Rajan"
> ...



agree 100%


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 27, 2008)

Gurfateh

A good lot of office bearer in there are from Taksal. An the plea of old code they prevent. But there is no proof as such for old code.Better is to remove such guys from office.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 11, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

we are helpless sitting here and banging our heads .. SGPC is lagging many such issues...I think Damdami Taksal is far better than SGPC.........

Chardi Kala.....


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 11, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> we are helpless sitting here and banging our heads .. SGPC is lagging many such issues...I think Damdami Taksal is far better than SGPC.........
> 
> Chardi Kala.....




Khalsa Ji,
Gurfateh.

Pardon me..BUT Damdmai taksaal is the root of the problem.
ALL..EACH and EVERYONE..of the Takhat jathedars, Granthis, Ardassiahs , sevadars..presently Employed by SGPC at ALL TAKHATS, etc are all from DT or affiliated Deras.  THAT is the SOLE REASON..SGPC's OWN SIKH REHAT MARYADA is NOT being Implemented in Takhats/Gurdwaras under its control.

The Previous Longest serving Jathedar Akal takhat Joginder Singh VEDANTI...(not SGGS..BUT VEDAS expert) was studnet of DT..present Jathedar Gurbachan Singh is DT based/educated....NONE is Missionary College Trained...and wehn  the SGPC tried to RECRUIT two of the best Misisonary Trained Gyanis..the rest raised such a hue and cry..and the selection was abandoned..

WHY do you think we have GHEE JYOTS BURNING in ALL Gurcdwars/Takhst/Harmandir Sahib....WHEN the SGPC SRM Maryada BANS it...so many other anti-gurmatt, anti-srm prcatises are from DT. DT has now gone into HAVANS...recently also a CHALISA...at Gurdwara Mehta HQ of DT....

ITS the DT/SANTS/DERAS and the SANT SAMAAJ that are BLOCKING this KIRTAN/Panj Piayara SEWA of BIBIS. The One and Only Misisonary Jathedar..Prof Manjit Singh of Keshgarh while Acting Jathedar Akal takhat ALLOWED WOMEN to do KIRTAN/be part of Panj piayars in Harmandar Sahib....but he was REMOVED..and the Practise was stopped immediately.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 12, 2009)

cops i see cops 


and the quote of Rajinder Singh Mehta is the sentence every husband should byheart...and use when necessary :rofl!!:

<<Rajinder Singh Mehta, member, executive committee, SGPC, at the function said women could not be allowed to participate in Panj Piyare or perform kirtan/seva due to a variety of reasons. He said the Almighty had differentiated man from woman at the time of birth, hence nobody should raise such a demand. >>


:}8-:


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## Ravinderahl (Jun 12, 2009)

I think taliban have infiltrated the SGPC!! Why are we going backwards all the time?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

Guru Nnak Ji Sahib came...and He not only pulled us all out of the deepest PIT of castes..bharams..superstitions, shubh-ashubh dins and dates, special days of pooja..sangrands..pooranmashis..shubh this and ashubh that...saradhs..feeding uselss and worthless parasites called Brahmins...vihlarr sadhs and yogis swamis etc who shunned householders as impure..yet begged food from their impure women...unequalities, injustices agaisnt women, the  poor....the povery ridden..the labouring classes. the uneducated..the disenfranchised...AND PLACED US ON A PEDESTAL..high above all..with the Universal SARBATT DA BHALLA Concept..Kirt Karo waand chhako..Guru Ka Lnggar..fight for the downtrodden..fight to establish compete Freedom of religion, fight injustice, tyranny.....
The MOment Guru Ji closed His "Eyes"..we quickly scrambled DOWN FROM the high Pedestal...and picked up our CASTES...our ooch Neech..our sardhs and fedign the brahmins..our Baths at holy places to purify us..our shubh days and ashubh days..to cut the long story short..we PICKED UP every single bit of RUBBUSH that Guru Ji threw away...and DESCENDED BACK into the PIT..and began to DIG IN EVEN DEEPER..with a Vengeance..as if to make up for LOST TIME... years from 1469-1708...500 Years hence....we are in a  HURRY to play Catch UP.. we have SOLD out the Most Progressive religion..the BEST DIVINE MESSAGEE that Waheguru ever sent here...down the drain.....:}--}::}--}::}--}::}--}::}--}:


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## dalsingh (Jun 12, 2009)

Really backwards.....I expect no less from the SGPC.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 12, 2009)

Dear All,

The whole problems in the world political/religious lie in the quietness of silent majority who are not even just observers as to the happenings all around and are totally unconcerned.

In the present situation the narrow minded, arrogant, ignorant, spiritualiy blind Sikh 
hierarchy has to be booted out as they allow bought Akhand Paths to earn the many in guise of superstition but do not want to practice the teachings of Sabd Guru.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Archived_Member16 (Jun 12, 2009)

*source:* SikhSpectrum.com Monthly. Women Rights: A Protracted Struggle

*Womens Right: A Protracted Struggle *


*Jagmohan Singh* 

*S*ikh British women activists' intervention for Sikh women's right to do _seva_ and _Kirtan_ in Darbar Sahib is welcome. Nevertheless, the Sikh Diaspora should resist all temptation to use malice and condescension as their tools as then hostility and disregard will be the natural corollary. 
*I* strongly and unequivocally support the cause of women doing seva, including that of lending support to the palanquin carrying of Guru Granth Sahib and performing Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar. 
*T*he _Palki seva_ procession is not a ritual. To call it a ritual is to belittle it. This is a daily reiteration by the Sikhs to themselves and to the world at large that for every Sikh, Shabad - the Word - is the Guru. The Guru Granth Sahib is more than a scripture. It is the living embodiment of the teachings of the Gurus. It is the Sacha Padshah, the True King. The royal majestic walk, singing the hymns of Gurbani and meditation upon the Naam of Vaheguru is a clarion call to the Sikhs to unflinchingly reaffirm the significance of this revolutionary theological ideal propounded by the Gurus. 
*I* am a strong advocate of all-round reforms in Darbar Sahib and in our Gurdwara Management affairs worldwide. I personally led the cause and successfully achieved reservation for women in the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee in the 1996 SGPC elections. I am a staunch male, feminist propagandist and denounce all male and female chauvinists that cite stupid and archaic laws, traditions and customs to subjugate women. 
*Y*et, I do not applaud the passion for quick results. 
*S*ikh women may have to follow the example of protracted struggles of women all over the world when they got the right to adult suffrage. Women did not get their adult suffrage so easily. American women struggled for seventy-five years, Canadian women for fifty years and British women for eighty long years. Only Australian women perhaps had to put up a comparatively lesser fight. 
*I*t took the American women almost eighty years to achieve victory: from 1848, when a resolution calling for women's suffrage was adopted at the Seneca Falls Convention, to August 26, 1920, when the federal women's suffrage amendment was finally ratified. 
*T*oronto's Women's Literary League, formed around 1886, was the first women's suffrage organization in Canada. Women's legal right to vote was obtained at both the provincial and federal level over a nine year period (1916-1925) with the exception of the Province of Quebec where the right to vote in provincial elections could not be obtained until 1940. 
*A* leading woman suffragette of her times, Princess Sophia Alexandra Duleep Singh, the daughter of Maharaja Duleep Singh, the last sovereign of the Sikh empire, chained herself to railings in Downing Street to make a speech to focus on the right to vote for British women. But she did not make a forcible attempt to enter the Parliament! 
*T*hough it is not within my present purview to comment on the religious aspect, it is pertinent to note that the Christian women's rights to priesthood and other echelons of their theological positions have still not been resolved. The Christian world is still in the process of evolving a new standard of female religious priesthood. 

*I*n England as in most parts of the west, even when women got the right to vote, they were not taken seriously. In the 1920s, Winston Churchill blushed at the sight of a woman politician in Parliament and said, "It was as embarrassing as if she burst into my bathroom when I had nothing on with which to defend myself." 
*D*uring my recent visit to England, I was witness to an altercation between a husband and wife in the middle of a by lane, when they were attempting to start their car, which was giving them trouble. The man shouted at his wife and said, "You silly cow, come here." 
*I* was shell-shocked. The wife did not retaliate. Lots of questions crossed my mind: "Why cow?", "Why did she listen to this nonsense?" 
*M*y research led me to this: In 1867 when Benjamin Disraeli's government introduced the 1867 Reform Bill, supporters of general suffrage hoped the vote might also be extended to women. They argued that by Lord Romilly's Act of 1850, the word "man" applied to woman as well. But the extent to which women were held in disdain was clearly indicated by the remark of one MP: "If a woman could be brought in under Lord Romilly's Act," he said, "so might a cow!" 
*T*he right of Sikh women for gender equality on the basis of Gurbani is inalienable. Gurbani and Sikh history not only uphold this but also is full of revolutionary steps taken by Gurus and Sikh historical figures. 
*G*uru Tegh Bahadur, in an unprecedented step in that time, in the sixteenth century, purchased the land of village Mukhailpur to build what we today know as Anandpur Sahib, in the name of Bebe Nanki. The first name of Anandpur Sahib was Chakk Nanki. By doing so, the Ninth Master asserted two rights, one to equality and secondly, a woman's right to property. In comparison, British women obtained the right to property in the 19th century. In India, women do have this right, but equal rights of succession to property are still to be fully and properly codified. 
*A*lthough the Sikh faith clearly rejects any discrimination between males and females, yet Sikh women and their supporters - men and women - have to cover a lot of ground to achieve equal gender rights. The harsh social realities of our society are before us. They cannot be easily wished away. How these realities affect Sikh women in the social milieu of present day Punjab or elsewhere in the Sikh Diaspora, are a matter of degree not of kind. 
*T*here are many Churchills lurking within Sikhdom. The mindsets of the Sikhs and the people of Punjab haven't changed. The ever-recurring dowry deaths have not stopped. To fulfill the greed for greener pastures, today Punjabi parents are increasingly willing to send their daughters, and of course sons as well, to marry beyond the shores of Punjab without cross-checking and verifying the antecedents of the would-be spouse and family. I have come across very few - only a handful of cases - where young girls have refused such proposals. 
*P*unjab has one of the highest female foeticide rates in the Indian sub-continent. According to data published by a United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) study entitled 'Sex-Selective Abortion and Fertility Decline in Haryana and Punjab', nearly 62,000 sex-selective abortions were conducted in Haryana during 1996-98, while 51,000 such tests took place in the state of Punjab. 
*D*espite government curbs, ultrasound clinics flourish in all cities and towns of Punjab. I need to reiterate that women take the lead in female foeticide because of ancient Indian societal pressures, the quest for a nuclear family and the passive and active participation of mercenary doctors. 
*L*ately, since the government has become a little more pro-active, another dangerous and sinister trend is emerging. As doctors are under some pressure, instead of foeticide, now it is infanticide and abandonment of the female child when it is just a few days or weeks old. 
*D*uring the last year alone, in 2002, the male-female ratio in some districts of Punjab and Haryana has come done drastically to 1000:700. Bride hunting will soon be a major task. The adverse female sex ratio is the most worrying factor, as exemplified in the Punjabi folk-song, popular a few years ago, whose theme was, "Maasi nu tarsangay." 
*T*he state of affairs of education of the girl child in Punjab is another area of serious concern. Verbal and physical domestic abuse at home and at work, which continue unabated, yet another. 
*W*hile exposure to satellite television has provided more opportunities to young men and women, it has also brought in its wake new problems of adultery, divorce, promiscuity and blind aping of a pseudo sub-culture propounded by 'new-age' films and popular soap operas. Unfortunately, the pressures are so strong and devious that the Sikh population too has been unable to escape it. 
*E*xcept for a few honourable exceptions, generally there is an abysmal lack of concern on our part for the widows of our martyrs in particular, and for all widows in general. We have completely ignored the women who became widows in the massive population transfer of 1947, the widows of the Sikh activists who were killed in 1978 and the large number of widows of the struggle in the last two decades. 
*I*t was a British historian, Professor Ian Tevlod, who during his recent trip to Punjab appealed to world historians and the international community to do a thorough study of the agony of the massive migration of 1947, in accordance with modern international law. 
*W*e have not yet estimated the trauma, which our mothers and sisters have and are facing as a result of the personal tragedies that struck them not very long ago. We thrive our religious ethos and political rhetoric on martyrdom, but if we contemptuously disregard the sorrow of our women and children, we will be guilty of personal and collective sin. 
*T*he Sikh Reht Maryada, or the Sikh Code of Conduct, candidly advocates widow remarriage. My assessment is that we have miserably failed on this front too. 
*W*hat have we done for the widows of the November 1984 pogrom against the Sikhs in more than 200 towns and cities of India? There are no doubts that some individuals and organizations, have done exemplary work. Harinder Singh, Advocate and Nishkam in Delhi deserve kudos for their dedication in this field. But I will not be wrong if I say that as a nation, we have failed to make it a central issue. 
*I* have no inhibition in saying that it is more appropriate to wipe off tears of a single widow, offer her consolation and solace than to do any other kind of Seva. It is perhaps in this spirit that Guru Gobind Singh said, "Garib ka mooh, Guru ki Golak," meaning, "The mouth of the needy is the saving box of the Guru". I have no doubt in my mind that the Guru did not mean this to be taken only literally. 
*I* am not discounting the sacrifice of women, but I am attempting to show the other side of the picture. I propose the setting up of a Sikh Mothers and Sisters Association, which can begin work by revisiting the families for consolation and reassurance. 
*A* section of the Sikh religious leadership opposes the entry of women into various forms of Seva. Like the rest of the society, they too need to be educated. There is a huge gap between Guru Nanak's portrayal and importance of women and the situation we have today largely due to the influence of Indian social mores. This gap between precept and practice has to be abridged, slowly and steadily, with commitment and grace, without acrimony and haste. 
*T*here have to be institutional changes, positive actions and the resolution of women's problems and mobilization of women at the grassroots level. The modalities regarding Seva in Darbar Sahib and elsewhere have to be drawn up. Serious brainstorming by concerned Panthic individuals and organizations should begin with dedication and without rancour. 
*T*hese are stark realities and not excuses for not supporting the women's cause. This is also not to say that women should forego their mission. I only want to caution that there is no fast track. 
*O*n 9th March, 1940, the Religious Advisory Committee of the SGPC, comprising of all men, namely Jathedar Mohan Singh, Bhai Labh Singh, Ganga Singh and Teja Singh passed the following resolution: "The matter of women performing Kirtan in Darbar Sahib was raised and discussed. It has been accepted that women should be given the same opportunity that is extended to men." 
*T*hough women activists have recently claimed so, the 1996 directive of Sri Akal Takht Sahib is not about seva of carrying the palanquin from Akal Takht Sahib to Darbar Sahib and back. It is only about the seva of daily cleaning the floor of the sanctum sanctorum of Darbar Sahib. Suffice it is to say here that Panthic scholars and activists are not unanimous about the content and methodology of this early hour Seva. However, on 9th February 1996, a directive was issued by the then Acting Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Manjit Singh and co-signed by other Jathedars. The Hukamnaama, while endorsing equality of gender, granted permission to women to do seva and inter alia, "directed the manager, Darbar Sahib to make necessary arrangements for women to do seva." It also specified a code of conduct to be followed by women. 
*T*he time and context of these resolutions should be borne in mind. Some women's organizations and their supporters have cited the SGPC resolution of 1940 and the directive of the Jathedars of 1996. But is it not a fact that neither women's organizations, nor individuals in general, made any effort to ensure implementation of the resolution or that of the directive? 
*A*nd this is not the only resolution that needs implementation. There are many more which need to be taken to their logical conclusion. Gender equality has to come on many fronts -at home, at work, for seva, for Kirtan, for decision-making and for religious and political leadership. 
*P*rior to the 1996 election, the number of women in SGPC did not cross the figure five. Sikh women got the right to vote in the SGPC in 1925. But their participation was minimal. The Shiromani Akali Dal (Amritsar) put in pioneering efforts for the cause of reservation for Sikh women members in the SGPC in 1993, in preparation for the first SGPC election the party contested. This party lobbied the National Commission for Minorities and was able to achieve this because of the cooperation of the then Deve Gowda led government in India. The result is that you see a number of women in the SGPC general house. It is another matter that almost all the women who won the elections were wives of party leaders. 
*M*y belief is that it is not the time to cling to a drawback and go hammer and tongs against the religious leadership. Many questions need answers. We need to go further on. 
*I*n Punjab, India and the Diaspora, no Sikh organisation has propagated the Hukamnaama against female foeticide issued by Sri Akal Takht Sahib. To be more precise, many activists - women and men - are not even aware of the directive, because we are so fond of seeking mistakes and misgivings, the brighter side of the picture is not even seen, and when seen, deliberately forgotten. The Hukamnamma issued under the seal of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, on 18th April 2001, by the present Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Giani Joginder Singh upholding the status of women in the Sikh religion and Sikh history, categorically states: 
"To put an end to this inhuman, immoral and irreligious practice, in the light of Gurmat thought and philosophy, the Five Singh Sahibans from the portals of Akal Takht Sahib order all Guru Nanak Naam Levas that no Gurmukh man or woman, on detection of a female child in the womb, should resort to the Manmukhi act of female foeticide. Any person doing so is a Tankhaiya. We also appeal to humankind that we should respect the individuality of every person rising above gender considerations." 
*D*on't you think that the Jathedars have done their job and we need to do ours? 
*W*e need to carry it through. This canon should reach every Punjab home. It should reach every Sikh home in the Diaspora. We need to use our skills and the force of the Sangat to ensure usage of resources effectively. We need to be part of the solution, not the problem. We need to do our bit of publicity as well, through writing, through docudramas, through activism from home to home. 
*W*e need to reemphasize that the Rehatnamas are strictly categorical: "No liaison or relationship with any person, man or woman, who is guilty of female foeticide or infanticide." 
*T*he Rehatnamas recommend total ostracisation of such a person and family from society. 
*W*hat have we, as the Commonwealth of the Khalsa, done to further this? Can we just blame the religious leadership and forget our role? 
*I*t is time to organise a long and thorough battle with those who are entrenched in power. Every form of peaceful political, legal and social strategy should be used to achieve justice. The parameters of the struggle are not limited only against those in authority; it has to encompass the entire society. 
*N*evertheless, even if we have to wait for another hundred years, no attempt must be made to undermine the authority of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. All temptations to use the precincts of Darbar Sahib and Sri Akal Takht as a playground for conflict-mongering and political chicanery should be resisted. Let us continue to pray. Let us invoke the blessings of Waheguru to shower the boon of "bibek daan". Let us all celebrate more respect for women and follow the innumerable examples of Sikh women in Sikh history. 
*A* band of dedicated women and men with a gender-equality agenda should fan out into the heartland of Punjab. A door-to-door call for equality to generate community awareness must begin. This call should focus on women, young and old, with special focus to prepare women and men against foeticide and to take a neutral stand against dowry. Simultaneously, we should enrich each other with more education and self-esteem and rekindle the commitment of Sikh society in letter and spirit to the high pedestal for women given by Guru Nanak. 
*A* women's movement with the declared mission to rid Punjab of the menace of liquor, drugs and inequality is imperative. The devastation of homes and the pain inflicted to womenfolk after drug and alcohol abuse has not been documented at all. 
*T*he misdemeanour and denigration of womanhood at marriage ceremonies in Punjab during the vulgar presentation of song and dance sequences can put men and women of any age group to shame. Believe me, the ostentatious expenditure and indecency in Punjab marriages is worse than in Bollywood ridden Mumbai. It is only when women themselves take up the cudgels to boycott such functions and protest against such disgusting display of nouveau-riché wealth and shamelessness, that gender-equality will get a boost in our male-dominated society. 
*T*he right to do seva does not exist in isolation. It has to be seen and understood in the complete unbiased perspective. A Sikh Women's Brains Trust should examine the whole gamut of the status of Sikh women in our society so that the values enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are implemented without delay. 
*W*hether women will choose to include some men in this collective will be their choice. Entirely. 

*Copyright ©2002 Jagmohan Singh. About The Author*


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## susan (Jun 12, 2009)

Gurfuteh Ji
This is a very sad day for me to hear this nonsense. When the Akal Thakth makes a decision it effects Sikhs all around the world. Many of us consider their decisions as the "Right" decisions,so we abide by them. It breaks my heart to hear that as a woman I am not considered to be of a high enough status due to my gender to do "Sewa for my Guru" at THe Golden Temple. It makes we wonder if there are limits to what I am  "ALLOWED" to achieve on this spiritual journey. Many ignorant people will agree will the Akal Thakth,and that scares me. Instead of raising Sikhism we are pulling it down. 
Just my thoughts.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

susan said:


> Gurfuteh Ji
> This is a very sad day for me to hear this nonsense. When the Akal Thakth makes a decision it effects Sikhs all around the world. Many of us consider their decisions as the "Right" decisions,so we abide by them. It breaks my heart to hear that as a woman I am not considered to be of a high enough status due to my gender to do "Sewa for my Guru" at THe Golden Temple. It makes we wonder if there are limits to what I am "ALLOWED" to achieve on this spiritual journey. Many ignorant people will agree will the Akal Thakth,and that scares me. Instead of raising Sikhism we are pulling it down.
> Just my thoughts.


 
Susan ji,

Guru Fateh.

This decision by Akal Takhat proves that they do not understand nor do they care about the teachings of our Gurus given to us by them in SGGS, our ONLY GURU. They have passed many Hukumnaamas out of sheer ignorance which is laced with a lot of arrogance. 

These both traits that they possess and flaunt and use them so shamelessly are anti Gurmat. This is the reason none of their Hukunaamas which are anti Gurmat should be accepted and all those who believe and try to practice the teachings of SGGS should protest vehemently.

It is sad to notice that these people have abused their power like the Mughals, the Hindus and others did.

Tejwant Singh

PS: I did write a little essay about this called- Bogey Men which you can search in the forum. I hope you enjoy it.


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Soul Jyot ji

What an inspiring article and more than inspiring! Thanks for posting. The discussion is really educational and interesting ji's all. :idea:


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

*Here is the Bogey Man thread*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/359-bogey-men.html#post103316
*
Thank you susan ji for finding it!*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 14, 2009)

Dear All,

Selfless service in Sikh thought is the right of every human since God is a part of every one. To refuse such a service is denying the presence of God in that individual against the teachings contained in AGGS.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Kuldeep Singh Anand (Jul 19, 2009)

Yes baptised womens should be allowed to perform Kirtan in Shri Harmandir Sahib,if womens could do Kirten in other Gurudwaras in pressence of "Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj "then why not at Harimander Sahib,If Mata Bhag Kaur could fight in battel field, then why they can not peroform Kirtan,women's could deliver better Message of  Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji allow them.


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## singhini (Jul 20, 2009)

This saddens me that the Akal Takht that we are supposed to look towards for implementing Sikhism truly are allowing their thoughts and opinions to get in the way of guru ji's teachings.

Very sad that despite what the guru's did for bringing equality between women and men as women we are still struggling to achieve this.

When I see things like this it makes me want to turn away from the "institutionalised" side of sikhi.


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## Hardas Singh (Jul 20, 2009)

Why does the Akal Takhat waste time with such matters, men and women are equal, now lets move on to more important issues concerning the Sikh community as well as the rest of the world. The Akal Takhat is becoming to much like a priesthood, I thought our Gurus did away with the idea of priests?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 20, 2009)

This is the Miri which is the problem for spiritual progress. They do not want to share the message of AGGS to the humanity and those who question are excommunicated.

Virinder


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## susan (Jul 21, 2009)

How seriously should one follow what the Akal Takht orders? I personally listen through one ear and blow it out of the other. :yes:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 21, 2009)

Dear Susan,

You are doing great IMHO and keep it up. You want to know the history of it, go to google and find the site "Encyclopedia of Sikhism" and read it. Basically the principle of setting it up was great but because of political corruption it has fallen in to bad repute and make unilateral decisions against women rights and not letting the relatives of Mardana to sing Sabds like illitrates. Just remember the Sabds of Guru Arjan when upset e.g.

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਅਤਿ ਬਣੈ ਢੋਈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥ਲਾਗੂ ਹੋਏ ਦੁਸਮਨਾ ਸਾਕ ਭਿ ਭਜਿ ਖਲੇ ॥ਸਭੋ ਭਜੈ ਆਸਰਾ ਚੁਕੈ ਸਭੁ ਅਸਰਾਉ ॥ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਤਤੀ ਵਾਉ ॥

_jaa ka-o muskal at banai dho-ee ko-ay na day-ay. laagoo ho-ay dusmanaa saak bhe bhaj khalay. sabho bhajai aasraa chukai sabh asraa-o. chit aavai os paarbarahm lagai na tatee vaa-o._ 

When you are confronted with terrible hardships, and no one offers you any support, when your friends turn into enemies, and even your relatives have deserted you, and when all support has given way, and all hope has been lost if you then come to remember the Supreme God, even the hot wind shall not touch you.

ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਿਤਾਣਿਆ ਕਾ ਤਾਣੁ ॥ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੁਬਲਾ ਨੰਗ ਭੁਖ ਕੀ ਪੀਰ ॥ ਦਮੜਾ ਪਲੈ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੇਵੈ ਧੀਰ ॥ਸੁਆਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਉ ਨ ਕੋ ਕਰੇ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਾਜੁ ॥ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਰਾਜੁ ॥

_saahib nitaani-aa kaa taan. aa-ay na jaa-ee thir sadaa gur sabdee sach jaan. jay ko hovai dublaa nang bhukh kee peer. damrhaa palai naa pavai naa ko dayvai Dheer. su-aarath su-aa-o na ko karay naa kichh hovai kaaj. chit aavai os paarbarahm taa nihchal hovai raaj._ 

Our Akal Purkh is the Power of the powerless, and does not come or go is Eternal and Permanent. Through the Word of the Guru's Sabd, It is known as True. If you are weakened by the pains of hunger and poverty, with no money in your pockets, and no one will give you any comfort, and no one will satisfy your hopes and desires, and none of your works is accomplished-- if you then come to remember the Supreme God, you shall obtain the eternal kingdom. 

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਰੋਗੁ ॥ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ ਕੁਟੰਬਿ ਪਲੇਟਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਹਰਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ਗਉਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ਕਾ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

_jaa ka-o chintaa bahut bahut dayhee vi-aapai rog. garisat kutamb palayti-aa kaday harakh kaday sog. ga-on karay chahu kunt kaa gharhee na baisan so-ay. chit aavai os paarbarahm tan man seetal ho-ay._

When you are plagued by great and excessive anxiety, and diseases of the body; when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow; when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment -- if you come to remember the Supreme God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed.-----Guru Arjan, Sri Raag, AGGS, Page, 70-71

ਅਉਖੀ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਦੇਖਣ ਦੇਈ ਅਪਨਾ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥ਹਾਥ ਦੇਇ ਰਾਖੈ ਅਪਨੇ ਕਉ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਗਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਾਈ ਧੰਨੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਮੀਤੁ ॥ਮਨਿ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਭਏ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਅਚਰਜ ਦੇਖਿ ਬਡਾਈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਆਨਦ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੈਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥

_A¬ukẖī gẖaṛī na ḏėkẖaṇ ḏė¬ī apnā biraḏ samālė. Hāth ḏė¬ė rākẖai apnė ka¬o sās sās parṯipālė. Parabẖ si¬o lāg rahi¬o mėrā cẖīṯ. Āḏ anṯ parabẖ saḏā sahā¬ī ḏẖan hamārā mīṯ. Man bilās bẖa¬ė sāhib kė acẖraj ḏėkẖ badā¬ī. Har simar simar ānaḏ kar Nānak parabẖ pūran paij rakẖā¬ī._ 

Akal Purkh does not let Its devotees face hardships. This is Its innate nature. Giving Its hand, Akal Purkh protects Its devotees; with each and every breath, and cherishes them. Their consciousness remains attached to God. In the beginning, and in the end, God is always my helper and companion -- blessed is my friend. My mind is delighted, gazing upon the marvelous, glorious greatness of the Master. Remembering, remembering It in meditation, Nanak is in ecstasy; God, in Its perfection, has protected and preserved his honor. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 682

ਤਾਤੀ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥ਚਉਗਿਰਦ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਾਰ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ ॥ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਦੀਆ ਏਕਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਤਿਨਿ ਰਖਨਹਾਰਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਭਈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਏ ਸਹਾਈ ॥ 

_Ŧāṯī vā¬o na lag¬ī pārbarahm sarṇā¬ī. Cẖa¬ugiraḏ hamārai rām kār ḏukẖ lagai na bẖā¬ī. Saṯgur pūrā bẖėti¬ā jin baṇaṯ baṇā¬ī. Rām nām a¬ukẖaḏẖ ḏī¬ā ėkā liv lā¬ī. Rākẖ lī¬ė ṯin rakẖaṇhār sabẖ bi¬āḏẖ mitā¬ī. Kaho Nānak kirpā bẖa¬ī parabẖ bẖa¬ė sahā¬ī._

The hot wind does not even touch one who is under the protection of the Supreme Akal Purkh. On all four sides I am surrounded by the Its Circle of Protection; pain does not afflict me, O Siblings of Destiny. I have met the Perfect True Guru, who has done this deed. Akal Purkh has given me the medicine of the Its Name, and I enshrine love for the It. Savior Akal Purkh has saved me, and eradicated all my sickness. Says Nanak, God has showered me with Its Mercy; and has become my help and support. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 819

Cordially,

Virinder


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## danielle k (Aug 10, 2009)

Did anything happen with this? Or are we still at the same place?

It seems terrible to me, and completely against the SGGS.


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

Still in the same place


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## vsgrewal48895 (Aug 10, 2009)

Dear All,

IMHO all the persons at Akal Takhat are in spiritual ignorance, which is the shore less ocean of darkness, with no light at the end of the tunnel. The belief in the philosopher’s stone, the jewel in the serpent’s head, alchemy, and miracles is all a matter of ignorance. Those engaged in the worship of idols, symbols, materialism, gods, goddesses, in fasting, uttering blessings and curses, are all living in spiritual ignorance. By reciting Sabd Guru’s hymns without understanding, even a good person cannot find acceptance by Akal Purkh.  Without reflecting on the message of the AGGS or applying them in life, no wandering mind can find stability.   

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, or a willful lack of desire to improve the efficiency, merit, effectiveness or usefulness of one's actions. Ignorance is also a "state of being ignorant" or remaining unaware or uninformed.

Spiritual ignorance is a very serious matter. It is said that "What you don't know won't hurt you". We all know that is incorrect and yet it seems that many people have adopted that philosophy toward spiritual matters.  Many people are destroyed for lack of spiritual knowledge. Spiritual ignorance is not merely the lack of knowledge, but also the self-destructive turning away from the truth in all areas of life.  To be ignorant of one's ignorance is a further malady of the ignorant. Due to spiritual ignorance the practice of any faith is quite inconsistent with the tenets of that faith.

ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥

_Asankh Moorkh Andh Ghor._

Countless fools are blinded by ignorance.-----Japji, AGGS, Page, 4-3

Despite the admonition in some faiths that ignorance is bliss, Sikhism is particularly adamant that ignorance does more harm than good.

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ॥ ਔਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

_Giaan HeeNan Agiaan Poojaa, Andh Vartaavaa Bhaou Doojaa._

Without spiritual wisdom, people worship ignorance. They grope in the dark, in the love of duality.-----Guru Nanak, Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1412-4

Please read the complete article in archives of the SPN forum.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 10, 2009)

JUST listen to the GURMAT GYAN BIBIS doing Kirtan...they beat the Regular ragis and even the Hazooree ragis I hear daily on live Darbar sahib Kirtan broadcast hands down.
Actually no contest at all..the Bibis are way ahead...and AUTHENTIC KIRTAN...not the harmonium bollywood  Filmi tunes...copycats that pass off as kirtan these days..
SPN carries their Kirtan...


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

Gyani ji

I like them too-- they are the real songbirds of Gurbanee. And their professionalism and polish is outstanding. Wonderfully produced videos.

It must feel good for the husband - our forum member - Manvir ji to read your comments.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 10, 2009)

YES JIOS...have a look at this and tell me these bibis dont deserve to perform kirtan sewa at Harmandar sahib !! I have been listening non stop since they first put it up...PREM PIRI !!
Oha Prem Piri  Gurmat Gian Group’s Blog[/FONT]


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 11, 2009)

This is a lot of hypocritical [expletive deleted, by me]!

The religion teaches one thing;  the religious hierachy enforces another.  T'FIA (those fools in Amritsar) need to be thrown out on their ample behinds to be replaced by people  who have some understanding of Sikhi.  :happy:

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 11, 2009)

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

It is sad to see how the so called these care takers of Sikhi are sexist and have the typical Taliban mentality the way they treat women even worse than doormats at Darbar Sahib which ironcally has 4 doors to welcome all humanity but unfortunately those doors are closed for women, either to do seva inside, sit at the tabeiyah of SGGS with chor Sahib, chant Swayeies in the morning when Guru Sahib's Prakash takes place, or to do Gurbani keertan and or to become the Head Granthi.

It is bewildering to notice that these people who are supposed to have complete knowledge of Sikh history and Gurbani forget that Guru Nanak Dev ji, the founder of this beautiful way of life called Sikhi was the first feminist.

This is not only disrepect and insult to the teachings of SGGS but a mockery of Sikhi by those who are supposed to be its flag bearers.

No matter how long their cholas are that they wear, until they realise that what they are doing on purpose is wrong and anti Gurmat, they shall remain "emporers" with no clothes on.

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Aug 11, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Sadh Sangat,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
OMG can you believe this.

Someone told me that the reason for this was due to a womans menstrual cycle. She is impure once a month. What utter utter nonsense!!!!

I am getting even more angrier!:}--}:


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## Admin (Aug 11, 2009)

The most disgusting and absurd argument one could ever hear... :}--}: Are Sikhs still living in a primitive stage... and we claim Sikhism to be the most advanced and modern religion... :rofl!!:Since when did Sikhism promoted hatred against women... who wrote this edict and who implemented this edict... is this hatred inscribed in any rehatnama or something?? A matter of Great Shame for Sikh Community... :down:


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## spnadmin (Aug 11, 2009)

Aman ji 

Speaking as a woman I thank you. But at the same time I try to understand that culture not religion is speaking on the question of kirtan seva in the Harimandir. So from one side we need to push a different view of women, but on the other hand sometimes it is important to understand that the hierarchy is trapped in its own version of Maya and it will take them a while longer to shift and see things clearly.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Aug 11, 2009)

Dear Narayanjot Ji,

Guru Nanak in Raag Sorath clearly depicts his philosophy in simple words;

*ਬਾਬਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ਇਨਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਗੁ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ *

ਮਨੁ ਹਾਲੀ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਰਮੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਤੁ ॥ਨਾਮੁ ਬੀਜੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸੁਹਾਗਾ ਰਖੁ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਵੇਸੁ ॥ਭਾਉ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਜੰਮਸੀ ਸੇ ਘਰ ਭਾਗਠ ਦੇਖੁ ॥ਬਾਬਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ਇਨਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਗੁ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਹਾਣੁ ਹਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਜਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਥੁ ॥ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੋਚ ਕਰਿ ਭਾਂਡਸਾਲ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਰਖੁ ॥ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੈ ਲਾਹਾ ਮਨ ਹਸੁ ॥ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਉਦਾਗਰੀ ਸਤੁ ਘੋੜੇ ਲੈ ਚਲੁ ॥ਖਰਚੁ ਬੰਨੁ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਮਤੁ ਮਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਕਲੁ ॥ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਕੈ ਦੇਸਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਤਾ ਸੁਖਿ ਲਹਹਿ ਮਹਲੁ ॥ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਮੰਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਕੰਮੁ ॥ਬੰਨੁ ਬਦੀਆ ਕਰਿ ਧਾਵਣੀ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਧੰਨੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਚਵਗਣ ਵੰਨੁ ॥

_Man hālī kirsāṇī karṇī saram pāṇī ṯan kẖėṯ.Nām bīj sanṯokẖ suhāgā rakẖ garībī vės.Bẖā¬o karam kar jammsī sė gẖar bẖāgaṯẖ ḏėkẖ. Bābā mā¬i¬ā sāth na ho¬ė.In mā¬i¬ā jag mohi¬ā virlā būjẖai ko¬ė. Rahā¬o.Hāṇ hat kar ārjā sacẖ nām kar vath.Suraṯ socẖ kar bẖāŉdsāl ṯis vicẖ ṯis no rakẖ.vaṇjāri¬ā si¬o vaṇaj kar lai lāhā man has. Suṇ sāsaṯ sa¬uḏāgrī saṯ gẖoṛė lai cẖal.Kẖaracẖ bann cẖang¬ā¬ī¬ā maṯ man jāṇeh kal.Nirankār kai ḏės jāhi ṯā sukẖ laheh mahal. Lā¬ė cẖiṯ kar cẖākrī man nām kar kamm.Bann baḏī¬ā kar ḏẖāvṇī ṯā ko ākẖai ḏẖan.Nānak vėkẖai naḏar kar cẖaṛai cẖavgaṇ vann._ 

Make your mind the farmer, good deeds the farm, modesty the water, and your body the field. Let the Akal Purkh's Name be the seed, contentment the plow, and your humble dress the fence. Doing deeds of love, the seed shall sprout, and you shall see your home flourish. O Baba, the wealth of Maya does not go with anyone. This Maya has bewitched the world, but only a rare few understand this. Make your ever-decreasing life your shop, and make the Akal Purkh's Name your merchandise. Make understanding and contemplation your warehouse, and in that warehouse, store the It's Name. Deal with the It's dealers, earn your profits, and rejoice in your mind. Let your trade be listening to scripture, and let Truth be the horses you take to sell. Gather up merits for your traveling expenses, and do not think of tomorrow in your mind. When you arrive in the land of the Formless Akal Purkh, you shall find peace in the Mansion of Its Presence. Let your service be the focusing of your consciousness, and let your occupation be the placing of faith in the Naam. Let your work be restraint from sin; only then will people call you blessed. O Nanak, the Akal Purkh shall look upon you with Its Glance of Grace, and you shall be blessed with honor four times over.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 596

Cordially,

Virinder


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 16, 2009)

Damdami Taksal and other deras are the root of all issues in the Sikh faith.
List is below:
Dasam Granth
Moolmantar Length
Raagmaalaa
Jhatka
Karamkaands


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 16, 2009)

This whole topic is flat out ridiculous.  Does Sikhi teach
 equality or not?

:ice:


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 16, 2009)

Yes, Gurmat teaches equality. However, those who are controlling Darbar Sahib and Akaal Takht aren't followers of Gurmat. They are followers of orders of Badal. Badal follows orders of RSS and BJP. BJP and RSS aren't Sikhs. Just today, Head Granth Jagtar Singh didn't even follow proper procedure to take Hukamnama. He took hukamnama from Anand Sahib but only read 4 pauris. What kind of Hukamnama is that?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 16, 2009)

I remember a Sikhtoon referring to East Punjab as Badalistan.  What a mess.  Badals in Punjab and Nehru/Gandhi controlling the whole country since "Independence."
I can't get it to show properly.  Go here:  
Sikhtoons - Sikh cartoons with a message

Bad all"  the perfect name.  Complaining, though is not going to solve the problem.  What to do?

Chardi kala!  :ice:


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 16, 2009)

What to do is to educate the common Sikhs and awaken them. People have no clue about Gurbani. People are too busy making dough to learn Gurmat.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 16, 2009)

Ordinary sikhs are busy earning dough..so they can have enough to feed the vehlarr saadhs. brahmgyanis, sants,derawallahs....Sikhs feed the stomach...and not the Mann..so it grows weaker day by day...while the vehlarr tola gets bigger and bigger as free food 36 padarath are available all over the globe...air tickets are paid for..show me one sant who stays at the Gurdwara Rooms (sarais) during kiratn parchaar tours ?? and i will show you a good sant..


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## Lee (Aug 17, 2009)

I think that power corrupts, that all humans have the capacity to be shallow and protective of their power and that all religion includeing our own are subject to the frialites of human behavoiur.

I think we should be saddend and ashamed, I think that perhaps the people that make these chioces shold be made to feel even more ashamed, ahhhh but how to do that when we belive that where 5 Gurshiks are then Guru ji is also?

The answer seems obvious to me, and again it rather saddens me to report that I have never seen 5 Gursikhs, let alone in the same room.

Where is our sadh sanagat?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 17, 2009)

Dear Lee ji,

You say:



> it rather saddens me to report that I have never seen 5 Gursikhs, let alone in the same room.



How do you define a Gursikh?

Chardi Kala!  :ice:


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## Lee (Aug 18, 2009)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Dear Lee ji,
> 
> You say:
> 
> ...


 
Mai Harinder Kaur ji,

A Gursikh is a true Sikh of Guru ji, one who unquestionly follows Guru Granth Sahib, and takes note of what all of our Guru's have said.  I am not one, heh indeed perhaps you can tell by the tone of my last post I feel anger, I am imersered in maya as are we all.  I have personaly met perhaps one, or maybe two such Gursikhs in my life, and my life has become richer for it.

Would I call call those who sit at the top of our religious institution Gursikh?  How can I when stuff like this happens, ahhh yes I feel anger about it, but at the same time I feel that this must be Gods will.

Never-the-less I am as God has made me, I know not Gods porpuse in makeing me so, perhaps one day I shall, perhaps I shall never.

I can say though that as I type this, I can feel that anger disipate, what a wounderouse master we have huh!


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## harbansj24 (Aug 18, 2009)

Mai ji 



> How do you define a Gursikh?




The SRM defines Sikh as "a women or man who has total faith in and believes in one Akal Purakh, ten Gurus ( from Guru Nanak Dev ji to Guru Gobind Singh) Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Guru's Banis and teachings, *AND DASAM PITA'S Amrit* and does not believe in any other faith"


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 18, 2009)

OFF TRACK...women have always had a higher IQ....and so may be BETTER KIRTANIYAS than Men any day....heres the proof:

These three scientists decided to go fishing one day. So they
packed up all of their gear and headed down to the lake.

They were having terrible luck, they weren't catching a thing.
But all the sudden, one of the scientists feels a pull at his
line. He shouts out, "I got something, I got something!"

So he reels his catch in and much to his surprise, it's a
Mermaid. She tells the scientists, "If you let me go, I will
grant you each one wish." Well they think that's a pretty good
deal, so they agree.

The first scientist, the one who caught the Mermaid, tells her,
"I want you to double my IQ." The Mermaid says, no problem.
Snaps her fingers, and suddenly he's solving all of these
problems they had been working on for months.

So the next scientist thinks that's pretty neat, so he tells
the Mermaid, "I want you to tripple my IQ." So the Mermaid
says, "No problem." snaps her fingers once again, and now this
scientist is finding cures for AIDS and Cancer.

So the last scientist is really excited about all of this. He
tells the Mermaid, "I want you to quadruple my IQ."

The Mermaid looks at him and says, "Are you sure about this?
I'm not so sure you want to do that." But the scientist is
stubborn and tells her, "You granted the other guys wishes, now
grant mine or we're not letting you go."

So the Mermaid sighs and says, "Whatever you want." She snaps
her fingers and the scientist turned into a woman.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Aug 18, 2009)

Dear Giani Ji,

On the other side when God made Adam & Eve, he comes after few years and asks Adam how it is going?

Adam said Great God but I have few questions.

God said, OK, shoot!

Adam said why did you made Eve so beautiful?

God replied, so you can love her.

Adam said, why you made her so caring, warm, and good?

God replied, so you can love her.

Adam asked the last question, why you made her so stupid?

*God laughed and said, so that she can love you.*

Have a good day.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## susan (Aug 18, 2009)

Gyani Ji and Vrinder Ji
Thank you for these posts they put a big smile on my face.
May Akal Purakh keep you forever in Chardi Kala.


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## Lee (Aug 18, 2009)

Heh heh.  Of course we all like to laugh at jokes, and I am of the opinion that comedy may well be the very last bastion of free speach.  That is to say that you should be free to make a joke about anything, yes even if some find it offensive.  Why do I say this?

Well I have already made public my ideas about offense and the power that it can have if you let it.  Further to that I would add that homour can and does bring leveity to tense situations.

Case in point, and I know that some here will disgaree.  Sadar ji jokes! Well perhaps that is a wholely differant debate and so I'll leave that one for now, if you please.

Getting back to seriousness though.  It is still a man's world, and a great pity it is so, but the fight is well on it's way. Carry on the fight my sisters and see how many brothers line up besides you, I think you'll be pleasently supprised.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 19, 2009)

None of US would dare to call our wives a "*****" ?? unless oen wnats to sleep on the sofa ?? or get thrown out of the hosue...?   any one ?
But anyone and everyone can call his wife...(*B*)eautiful.. (*I*)ntelligent..(*T*)houghtful...(*C*)aring...and (*H*)omemaker !!! Its just how we look at..wives..women..words !!
Its OUR "LOOK"..and not the reality that colours our vision...right now the wannabes at the Takhats are having clouded vision..(serious cases of glaucoma/cataract)...no one can make them see right.:welcome:


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## manbir (Jun 8, 2010)

*Here I am taking this liberty of pasting a mail message from Sardar Gurmukh Singh Ji of UK. A very interesting information from his research work. May be, it may help us to open our eyes. *

Dear Sikh scholars

Please correct me if there is any historical doubt about the following:

Bhai Ratan Singh Bhangu's SGPC publication "Sri Guru Panth Parkash" 1994 p. 290;

"Guru ka Sikh, a poor Kalal [caste], Dyal Singh [father of Jassa Singh Ahluwalia] passed away leaving behind his son and wife." 

The following is about his widowed wife:

Huti Singhan ki beti soi, pita prraee acchar toi
(Daughter of a Singh (family), she was taught Gurmukhi by her father)

Gurbani tis kanth ghaneri, huti Sikhani doe pakh keri.
(She had memorised much Gurbani and was a Sikh from both side, her parents and in-laws.)

Pothi rakhat gaatray pai, Sikh sangat meh pahunchay jai.
Badi praat utth chaunki karray, samai sanjhai bhi Sodar parraeh.

(She kept a Shabad-potthi (Gutka) wearing it like a Kirpan at the end of a sash, and would join the holy congregation (sangat). She performed devotional Kirtan later in the morning and also Kirtan of "Sodar" in the evening i.e she sang Kirtan morning and evening.)     

---------------------------------------------
Jaha(n) Khalsay lai divaan, jai karray Shabad chaunki gaan.
(Where the Khalsa held religious function, she sang Shabad-Kirtan.)

Sun Khalsay Amrisar aayo, tin bhi darshan Pantheh paayo.
KEETI CHAUNKI PREMEH LAI, SUNI PANTH BAHO SHAANT BARTAI. 

(Hearing of the Khalsa, she came to Amritsar and had holy sight of the assembled Khalsa Panth. She sang Kirtan with deep devotion, and the Khalsa Panth heard in great meditative contentment.)

ATT PARSANN PANTH TIS PAR BHEYO........ 

(Khalsa Panth was extremely please with her.....[that her son became the Emperor of India on 11 March 1783 - if only for a short time !) 

AND WHY IS THE PANTH NOT "ATT PARSANN" (EXTREMELY PLEASE) WITH BIBIAN DOING  KIRTAN AT DARBAR SAHIB ?

I am sure someone will tell me that I have got it wrong in the translation, or Bhangu Sahib was making it up. 

Gurmukh Singh (UK)


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## Bmandur (Jun 8, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> I cannot believe when our Guru's have granted TOTAL equality to women in Sikhi we are arguing about such issues?
> 
> This is just plain ridiculous. The Takht needs to wake up.


 
*Not Takhat the Jathedaar's needs to wake up and get some Education too*


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## Bmandur (Jun 8, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> OFF TRACK...women have always had a higher IQ....and so may be BETTER KIRTANIYAS than Men any day....heres the proof:
> 
> These three scientists decided to go fishing one day. So they
> packed up all of their gear and headed down to the lake.
> ...


 
At least some one said the Truth Gyani Jee


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 25, 2014)

ravinderahl said:


> i think the decision is abysmal.



not permitting women to perform kirtan and palki sewa to our women folks is totally against guru granth sahib. Guru ji has given equal rights tommen and women. " so kiun manda akheye jis jamen rajan" says our guru granth sahib. This ban on women is misdeed of akal takhat jathedar and head giani of harmandir sahib. This is mater of utter shame to these self style chowdhari of harmandir sahib. Sikhs all over the world are very much annoyd for this act of of the chiefs of akar takhat and harimandir sahib. They should immediately lift this ban and allow fully baptized women sikh to perform all these sewas in sri harmadir saihb.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 25, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> not permitting women to perform kirtan and palki sewa to our women folks is totally against guru granth sahib. Guru ji has given equal rights tommen and women. " so kiun manda akheye jis jamen rajan" says our guru granth sahib. This ban on women is misdeed of akal takhat jathedar and head giani of harmandir sahib. This is mater of utter shame to these self style chowdhari of harmandir sahib. Sikhs all over the world are very much annoyd for this act of of the chiefs of akar takhat and harimandir sahib. They should immediately lift this ban and allow fully baptized women sikh to perform all these sewas in sri harmadir saihb.



In order for that to happen, Damdami Taksal needs to be removed from power... Even though SGPC Sikh Rehet Maryada is supposed to be installed at Sri Harmandir Sahib, it is the Taksals Gurmat Rehet Maryada which is being followed... and who are the opposers of women doing this seva?? Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj.  The problem is, that there needs to be more Sikh Missionary College trained in Akal Takht, and less DDT trained.  Until then, DDT will get their way...

As a side note:  Damdami Taksal's views on women can be summed up by one statement in their Gurmat Rehet Maryada, where a Singh is told to view his Singhni as his faithful follower, while the Singhi is told to view her husband as God.  

It's easy to find if you want to verify it in the GRM.  With thinking like this, it's no surprise that DDT oppose women being treated equally.


----------



## Abneet (Aug 26, 2014)

Akasha said:


> In order for that to happen, Damdami Taksal needs to be removed from power... Even though SGPC Sikh Rehet Maryada is supposed to be installed at Sri Harmandir Sahib, it is the Taksals Gurmat Rehet Maryada which is being followed... and who are the opposers of women doing this seva?? Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj.  The problem is, that there needs to be more Sikh Missionary College trained in Akal Takht, and less DDT trained.  Until then, DDT will get their way...
> 
> As a side note:  Damdami Taksal's views on women can be summed up by one statement in their Gurmat Rehet Maryada, where a Singh is told to view his Singhni as his faithful follower, while the Singhi is told to view her husband as God.
> 
> It's easy to find if you want to verify it in the GRM.  With thinking like this, it's no surprise that DDT oppose women being treated equally.



DDT do a better job of parchar aboard India to be honest than Akal Takht and their missionary groups. Also I agree on DDT on the stance of only males allowed in the panj pyare, but for kirtan sewa I see them degrading women rights in Sikhi and they definitely should be allowed as they are allowed to do other seva...makes no sense. As of right now DDT and Akal Takht aren't going to change because of the lack of leadership in the Panth.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 26, 2014)

Abneet said:


> DDT do a better job of parchar aboard India to be honest than Akal Takht and their missionary groups. Also I agree on DDT on the stance of only males allowed in the panj pyare, but for kirtan sewa I see them degrading women rights in Sikhi and they definitely should be allowed as they are allowed to do other seva...makes no sense. As of right now DDT and Akal Takht aren't going to change because of the lack of leadership in the Panth.



For Panj Pyare, DDT's only argument is that there were only males in the first five. However, Amrit Sanchar is not a mere reenactment, if it were, and if that is the reason, then also those castes who did not volunteer their heads in the first five should also be excluded.  You can't pick and choose which bits to reenact or not. Either it's an exact reenactment or it isn't.

Their reasons for excluding women in all other seva are the same as the reason they restrict women from Panj Pyare seva.  I posted an in-depth look at on another forum here:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/...mat-rehet-maryada-damdami-taksal/#entry138537

I urge you to read it, and see what I mean about their attitude towards women.  It goes much deeper than just saying 'sorry dear men only'


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 26, 2014)

Abneet said:


> DDT do a better job of parchar aboard India to be honest than Akal Takht and their missionary groups. Also I agree on DDT on the stance of only males allowed in the panj pyare, but for kirtan sewa I see them degrading women rights in Sikhi and they definitely should be allowed as they are allowed to do other seva...makes no sense. As of right now DDT and Akal Takht aren't going to change because of the lack of leadership in the Panth.



This is very unfortunate. It is totally against Siri Guru Granth Sahib teachings in which it clearly written at many places that women and men are equal. Read this 
"SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" The women who give birth to kings, or Our Gurus, why we denigrate her. It is only mono ply and high handednes of our sikh leaders may be DDT or Akal,Takhat. This will have very damaging effect on our future generation, who will,loose faith in siri Guru Franth Sahib. This may bring end to sikhi faith.
AT OTHER PLACE GURU GRANTH SAHIB SAYS. ".........NARI PURAKH HAI PURAKH HAI NARI......... "


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 26, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> This is very unfortunate. It is totally against Siri Guru Granth Sahib teachings in which it clearly written at many places that women and men are equal. Read this
> "SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" The women who give birth to kings, or Our Gurus, why we denigrate her. It is only mono ply and high handednes of our sikh leaders may be DDT or Akal,Takhat. This will have very damaging effect on our future generation, who will,loose faith in siri Guru Franth Sahib. This may bring end to sikhi faith.
> AT OTHER PLACE GURU GRANTH SAHIB SAYS. ".........NARI PURAKH HAI PURAKH HAI NARI......... "




Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you and did write about it in this post earlier and also in an article about inequality called, "The Bogey Men" which can be found here.

However, there is one caveat regarding the translation of,""SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" in my opinion.

Rajan- Kings were not noble people but the worst kinds of scums who plundered, killed, raped and did many other bad things at will. Our Gurbani- Babavani, our history about the Mughals and the Hindu Kings and the the Sikhi literature by our 10th Guru- Zafarnaama prove the fiendish nature of these cruelest of the cruel.

Taking the above in context, the meaning of, "SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" is not the same as many historians and also common Sikhs see it by considering Rajan being some kind of noble class,hence giving them reverence.

It rather means,"Why talk ill about those who even gave birth to the lowest of the low(Rajan). Here the only noble are the women. No one else.

Lastly, would you be kind enough to give the page number of "NARI PURAKH HAI PURAKH HAI NARI"? And please make it a normal thing to post the whole shabad with your own understanding which may differ from the normally misleading literal translation as it is requested from all  so others can also learn from it. Your input is of utmost importance in this forum.

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 26, 2014)

I beg to differ with your translation and interpretation. Guru granth sahib has given equal,status to man and women in entire bani. So not allowing women to recite kirtan in harmandar sahib is desicration of our guru granth sahib. Asadi war you will,find all these shabads.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 26, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> I beg to differ with your translation and interpretation. Guru granth sahib has given equal,status to man and women in entire bani. So not allowing women to recite kirtan in harmandar sahib is desicration of our guru granth sahib. Asadi war you will,find all these shabads.



Seth ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea if your above post is in  response to my post. If it is, then you totally misunderstood it for the reasons known to you about it because I totally agree with you regarding the equal status and equality of women and that is exactly what I said several times in this thread and also in others.

What do you find wrong with women being noble rather than the fiendish kings whom they gave birth to and who called themselves nobles by raping and plundering?

And I am still waiting for your understanding of the whole shabad with the page number of which you mentioned the one liner.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 26, 2014)

The argument given by Rajinder Singh Mehta is totally base less and incorect. I ask him to quote from Guru Granth Sahib where it has been written that a man is not equal to a woman.i advise him to carefully read Asa Di War and he will find this topic where Guru ji has given equal,statue to man and woman. This is only to keep monopoly and upper hand in Siri Harmadir Sahib not allowing baptized women to perform kirtan. One day this high handedness of male manager and Self styled Chowdharis  will be broken .


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## Abneet (Aug 26, 2014)

Akasha said:


> For Panj Pyare, DDT's only argument is that there were only males in the first five. However, Amrit Sanchar is not a mere reenactment, if it were, and if that is the reason, then also those castes who did not volunteer their heads in the first five should also be excluded.  You can't pick and choose which bits to reenact or not. Either it's an exact reenactment or it isn't.
> 
> Their reasons for excluding women in all other seva are the same as the reason they restrict women from Panj Pyare seva.  I posted an in-depth look at on another forum here:
> 
> ...



Whatever the Gurus did were perfect and un-changable. No women offered their head at that time so it is unfortunate to have a women in the punj pyare. The 5 Singhs were chosen at that time. Even all their names have a significance and their background. It was perfectly picked. So what has happened during that amrit sanchar in 1699 cannot be changed what so ever. None of the Gurus were women......will some Sikh woman argue God doesn't think women can be a prophet etc....

I'll take a look at that link though for sure.


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 26, 2014)

All over the world gurdwaras women are allowed to perform kirtan except in harmandir sahib. Why it is so, can any one enlighten.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 27, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Whatever the Gurus did were perfect and un-changable. No women offered their head at that time so it is unfortunate to have a women in the punj pyare. The 5 Singhs were chosen at that time. Even all their names have a significance and their background. It was perfectly picked. So what has happened during that amrit sanchar in 1699 cannot be changed what so ever. None of the Gurus were women......will some Sikh woman argue God doesn't think women can be a prophet etc....
> 
> I'll take a look at that link though for sure.



So then no shoe maker caste can be panj pyare either? (I forget the caste name) but are only the five original castes allowed to be panj? If the significance of the exact emulation of the original five is so important... No shoe maker volunteered that day.  How about gora men? There were no goras who gave their head that day.  Or black men? How come nobody would contest any of them when their ethnicity or caste did not give their head that day? ...That is the same excuse being used to bar women.

Besides SRM states panj pyare can be either. It specifically says women can.  So that should be the final word.

"Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV

a.  Ambrosial baptism should be held at an exclusive place away from common human traffic.

b.  At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. *These six may even include Sikh women*. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair"


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## Harry Haller (Aug 27, 2014)

> *These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair"<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
> 
> *




but not disabled women!


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 27, 2014)

The sixth woman mamber can sfit in tabia, in attendance of siri guru granth sahib. The five men member can perform Baptising cere money.


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 27, 2014)

The five can perform baptizing ceremony. The sixth woman member can sit in tabia, in attendance of siri guru granth sahib . This may be good arrangement.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 27, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> The five can perform baptizing ceremony. The sixth woman member can sit in tabia, in attendance of siri guru granth sahib . This may be good arrangement.


 
The wording in Sikh Rehet Maryada is that *any of the six* may be women. Not that five men must be Panj and the Granthi may be a woman. 

The point is, Amrit removes all notions of class or heirarchy of everyone. It puts Khalsa all on equal level. Thats why they drink Amrit from the same bowl. Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ teaches of the same divine light in every human equally. Gender is transitory and only necessary for physical procreation. Our souls are all female anyway... (we are all soul brides) The gender of the first five doesnt matter, any more than their castes did. This is the teachings that our Gurus taught. Sikhi dropped *mostly* casteism, but kept sexism, and people speak as if gender discrimination is ok, even if they consider all other forms of discrimination are not ok. Why is gender so different? Why is it so easy for men to see women in this way? Why such a grudge to think that all women should be punished for all time, because of what a few women either did or didn't do over 300 years ago. Those few women were hardly representative of ALL women for ALL time. Panj Pyare are not limited to the five castes that were in the original five, so why is gender any different?? 

The point becomes, if women can take Amrit, but not perform all duties that Khalsa can perform, then are they truly ever seen as fully Khalsa? Why bother to give women Amrit at all? 

The other issue, goes well beyond mere allowing or disallowing something. Every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. To say that one gender is entirely dependent on the other for their spiritual progression, suggests that women are lacking in spirituality compared to men and so they 'require' men in order spiritually advance. That's a huge statement to make and that thinking was prominent in Hinduism, Islam etc. I thought all of our Gurus sought to abolish that??


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 27, 2014)

Sir, i fully agree with you on this issue. I only suggested that to start with women should be allowed to perform kirtan in Sri Harmandar Sahib and be allowed to,sit in Tabia, attendance of Siri Guru Granth Sahib at the stage. This should be minimum what should be allowed to our baptized sikh women. I will,cite a sad event. A kirtan Jatha of fully baptised ladies in white dresses and white turbans came from New Maxico Famous Gurdwara in USA. They were trained by Harbhajan Singh Yogi of New Maxico. These ladies jatha wanted to perform kirtan in Siri Harmandar Sahib. They were point blankly refused. So they returned to USA dis heartened and utterly disappointed.
The address is :  1A, Ram Das Guru pl, Espanola, NM 87532 (USA),   Email: Support@Sikhnet.com


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 27, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> Sir, i fully agree with you on this issue. I only suggested that to start with women should be allowed to perform kirtan in Sri Harmandar Sahib and be allowed to,sit in Tabia, attendance of Siri Guru Granth Sahib at the stage. This should be minimum what should be allowed to our baptized sikh women. I will,cite a sad event. A kirtan Jatha of fully baptised ladies in white dresses and white turbans came from New Maxico Famous Gurdwara in USA. They were trained by Harbhajan Singh Yogi of New Maxico. These ladies jatha wanted to perform kirtan in Siri Harmandar Sahib. They were point blankly refused. So they returned to USA dis heartened and utterly disappointed.
> The address is :  1A, Ram Das Guru pl, Espanola, NM 87532 (USA),   Email: Support@Sikhnet.com



Actually I think they still did kirtan, but did on the second level... and had as many people up there with them, as were in the downstairs of the sanctum sanctorum.

Uncle Ji, by the way I am a woman  and about to take Amrit too in India (I actually leave for India tomorrow)


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 27, 2014)

I wish and pray all the best to you. May Waheguru be with you in journey and you reach Amritsar safe . I am very happy to learn about you. Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh.


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 27, 2014)

It is not only women , they also don't allow a muslim Ragi Jatha. To perform kirtan in Harmandar sahib . You see i am of about eighty years of age . I remember in my child hood before partition there was very famous muslim ragi jatha know by the name of  BHAI CHAND Ragi jatha. I had the fortune of listening his kirtan in Peshawar in Bhai Joga Singh historic Gurdwara where he performed kirtan. He was clean shaved but used to tie beautiful white turban. All his companion used to tie turban.. He was so famous that people used to come from far and wide to attend his kirtan.  Once he came to Amritsar and wanted to perform kirtan. He was not allowed. 
You see our guru Granth Sahib has hundreds of banis of Baba Freed a sufi saint muslim and Baba Kabir also originally muslim. But now this DDT and Akal Takhat Boses who are supposed to follow our Holy Granth Sahib, are just desecrating it and in a way insulting it. I resent it and pray to Akal Purakh to bestow Sammat to these Chowdharis of Harimandir sahib.
The very Foundation stone of Harmander Sahib was laid by Muslim Saint Mian Mir!


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## Abneet (Aug 27, 2014)

Akasha said:


> So then no shoe maker caste can be panj pyare either? (I forget the caste name) but are only the five original castes allowed to be panj? If the significance of the exact emulation of the original five is so important... No shoe maker volunteered that day.  How about gora men? There were no goras who gave their head that day.  Or black men? How come nobody would contest any of them when their ethnicity or caste did not give their head that day? ...That is the same excuse being used to bar women.
> 
> Besides SRM states panj pyare can be either. It specifically says women can.  So that should be the final word.
> 
> ...



Is there proof that after Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed away has there ever been an amrit sanchar with a women included...and this is before makings of SRM....? So I'm asking proof of amrit sanchar with a woman after lets say 1740's through early 1900's?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 27, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Is there proof that after Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed away has there ever been an amrit sanchar with a women included...and this is before makings of SRM....? So I'm asking proof of amrit sanchar with a woman after lets say 1740's through early 1900's?



What does that have to do with anything?  Even if there wasn't it doesn't mean women are not 'allowed' it just means there weren't any then.  It doesn't mean there can't be any now.  Women only got rights to vote in the west in the last 100 years, does that mean no women should be able to vote ever? 

Let's move forward in society and the human race, not backward!

Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote his 52 hukams long after 1699 (1708 actually) and nowhere in there does say anything about restricting anything by gender.  Certainly something as important as Panj Pyare having such a huge restriction, would have been written in there!?  

What the Gurus taught was that gender (like caste) is transitory and illusion, just like this physical shell.  Our true nature is nonphysical, and we are told we are all soul 'brides' having female soul.  Amrit Sanchar is a highly spiritual event, not a mere reenactment of the original.  There's not one reason why a male physical body would be needed.

And as I said... as Sikhs we are told we must strive to take Amrit as a goal in life.  To say to women that they absolutely require men for this step while the men do not require women at all sends a very strong message of how women are seen in the eyes of our Creator.  It is straight up saying that our Creator views females as spiritually lacking... which goes against the basic teachings of all of the Gurus! 

Read in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ where it says the divine light is in both male and female equally.  Its saying that [God] is within all of us.  How can any human decide whether or not [God] in the female form is any less worthy then [God] in the male form, when Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ tells us that the divine light is in both equally???


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## Abneet (Aug 27, 2014)

Akasha said:


> What does that have to do with anything?  Even if there wasn't it doesn't mean women are not 'allowed' it just means there weren't any then.  It doesn't mean there can't be any now.  Women only got rights to vote in the west in the last 100 years, does that mean no women should be able to vote ever?
> 
> Let's move forward in society and the human race, not backward!
> 
> ...



I agree with you, but amrit sanchar is something that hasn't changed since 1699 until SRM came into play in the 1900's.* When you have a punj pyare you are resembling the original 5 *(which are all males because no female volunteered) so that's why it should be kept that way. Just because we are moving forward doen't mean we have to accept this and that on the way cuz some things are meant to stay in that way as the example above.


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 27, 2014)

I fully agree and support the opinion of  Amritpalsingh ji. The Chowdharis in Akal Takhat and Dam Dami Taksal think themselves superior to siri Guru Granth Sahib and are practising their own version. It is shame to these Chowdharis to go against Guru Granth Sahib. They are not worth even Sweepers of Akal Takhat or siri Harmandar Sahib. One day they will,be thrown out of the premises of Harmandar Sahib.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 27, 2014)

Abneet said:


> I agree with you, but amrit sanchar is something that hasn't changed since 1699 until SRM came into play in the 1900's.* When you have a punj pyare you are resembling the original 5 *(which are all males because no female volunteered) so that's why it should be kept that way. Just because we are moving forward doen't mean we have to accept this and that on the way cuz some things are meant to stay in that way as the example above.



Right so only the original five castes can be Panj Pyare too?  Or Black or White men? None of those volunteered that day... so they shouldn't be Panj Pyare either right? If it's an exact replica of the first...

Forgive me for saying, but your comment sounds like a 300 year old grudge on women.  What the few women did or didn't do that day, should not punish ALL women for ALL time because of it.  The castes who did not volunteer their heads that day can be Panj right?  Why is that not held against them?


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## Abneet (Aug 28, 2014)

Akasha said:


> Right so only the original five castes can be Panj Pyare too?  Or Black or White men? None of those volunteered that day... so they shouldn't be Panj Pyare either right? If it's an exact replica of the first...
> 
> Forgive me for saying, but your comment sounds like a 300 year old grudge on women.  What the few women did or didn't do that day, should not punish ALL women for ALL time because of it.  The castes who did not volunteer their heads that day can be Panj right?  Why is that not held against them?



Lol nah I got no grudge I just went strict on your reply. Your thinking too hard on this topic. I don't know how much you know about the puratan meryada and its content but why is it that 5 males have been used ever since Guru Ji's time. No women was used after that time period after Guru Gobind Singh Ji's death. Missionaries all over the place set up by dasvee patshaah before he passed guarantee you that punj pyare were always male and thats why that tradition was kept. The caste part has nothing to do with it because one you receive amrit caste is pointless. We are talking about gender here. The punj pyare during amrit sanchar is the Guru's form Himself. All men due to first 5 males to volunteer.

Now unless you can get real authentic evidence amrit sanchar included Singhnis during 1700's and 1800's I would be real interested and might be convinced.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 28, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Lol nah I got no grudge I just went strict on your reply. Your thinking too hard on this topic. I don't know how much you know about the puratan meryada and its content but why is it that 5 males have been used ever since Guru Ji's time. No women was used after that time period after Guru Gobind Singh Ji's death. Missionaries all over the place set up by dasvee patshaah before he passed guarantee you that punj pyare were always male and thats why that tradition was kept. The caste part has nothing to do with it because one you receive amrit caste is pointless. We are talking about gender here. The punj pyare during amrit sanchar is the Guru's form Himself. All men due to first 5 males to volunteer.
> 
> Now unless you can get real authentic evidence amrit sanchar included Singhnis during 1700's and 1800's I would be real interested and might be convinced.




Actually the Gurus taught that ALL form of discrimination were removed, any form of perceived hierarchy and class were removed with amrit.  That includes gender.  The only reason that it has mostly been all men, is *culture*.  Just because a culture has a tradition doesn't make it right.... And religion is beyond culture. Sikhi is supposed to be a religion for everyone for all time.  

Guru Ji never wrote down anywhere that it had to be all males (In his 52 hukams would have been REALLY good place had the idea of a gender hierarchy been important to him, especially since he wrote them in 1708...but his silence on the issue speaks volumes!).  

Our souls are all the same, the ***** *male organ* is only used for procreation, and has nothing to do with Amrit Sanchar. In fact, this whole bloody reality is illusion and we are told in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ that everything is really the ONE... women also drink from the same bowl when taking Amrit.  Therefore, ALL initiates are placed at the SAME level.  Men and women both!  This argument that no women gave their head when Guru Ji asked is a grudge against women.  

And as for Guru Ji's form, he knew that we are all ONE. He instructed Khalsa to keep in his roop... not just the males.  So therefore Khalsa period is his image.  The gender of the person does not matter.


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## kggr001 (Aug 28, 2014)

Abneet said:


> The punj pyare during amrit sanchar is the Guru's form Himself. All men due to first 5 males to volunteer.



Everyone who is pure is the Guru's form himself. 



> “Khalsa mero Roop hai khaas”
> Pure Being is my special form,
> 
> “Khalse mein hoon karo niwas”
> ...


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 28, 2014)

What is above quoted is very correct and true. Agreed women were never amongst Punj piyare. Women were never in any war as soldiers when Guru Gobind Singh ji fought many wars with Mughals in which his two elder Sahib zade were shaheed. The younger two Sahib Zade were buried alive in walls in Sirhad.
But my question is why women are not allowed to  perform kirtan in Siri Harmandar Sahib. They may not act as panj piyare and do palki sewa.  But certainly they can perform kirtan in Darbar Sahib provided they are baptized and tie a turban. Will you kndly enlighten me on this point.

"WAH WAH GOBIND SINGH APE GURU, APE GURUCHELLA"


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 28, 2014)

They have been in panj for quite awhile now and done of us women DO fight alongside men. Myself one of them.  My whole career has been in the military.  

The excuses used to keep women in a position beneath men are appalling. 

Should women stop taking Amrit too Abneet? Because in your thinking women must rely on men for spiritual advancement (if Amrit is seen as a necessary step) and to avoid 'requiring' men for my spiritual advancement if have to avoid Amrit? 

Luckily I am taking Amrit somewhere that uses SRM


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 28, 2014)

Dear Akash , i am very happy that you are taking Amrit. Women have full right to take Amrit.
In Asadiwar Guru ji says " SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAMEN RAJAN" ( why say bad to her who gives  birth to rajas and gurus.) . This is only monopoly and high handedness of DAM DAMI TAKSAL AND AKAL TAKHAT CHOWDHARIS WHO HAVE  PUT THIS BAN THAT WOMEN CAN NOT DO KIRTAN IN SIRI HARIMANDIR SAHIB. Yes i may agree that women can not form Panj Piyre, because Guru Gobind Singh ji only got five male sikhs who offered their heads at that time in Anad Pur Sahib.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 28, 2014)

Fellow spners there is no question that it is discrimination considering values in today's day and age. I am sure there will come a time in the future where it will come to pass.

Perhaps it is also wise to look into some historic aspects of who were the prime class of people that learned to do kirtan anywhere? These in general were dis-enfranchised Sikhs either from then what was considered low castes or at times handicapped in some aspect. The purpose of helping them earn a living in this profession was that they could raise families where men were the dominant earners in family settings and the women did the all important part of raising and caring for the children and keep the household functioning. The history therefore was not that some females wanted to do equality kirtan during these times. Have the times changed for such source or other aspects of this arrangement? I don't live in India right now so I don't know. May be others can provide better reflections on present times if they have first hand knowledge.

I of course fully support equality but I do believe that we need to keep note of some of the root aspects in such situations before passing too many philosophical judgments. I still have a hunch that it is still sourced out of classes that continue to be dis-enfranchised in India in-spite of all the constitution, slogans and programs to rid the society of the caste system.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> Dear Akash , i am very happy that you are taking Amrit. Women have full right to take Amrit.
> In Asadiwar Guru ji says " SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAMEN RAJAN" ( why say bad to her who gives  birth to rajas and gurus.) . This is only monopoly and high handedness of DAM DAMI TAKSAL AND AKAL TAKHAT CHOWDHARIS WHO HAVE  PUT THIS BAN THAT WOMEN CAN NOT DO KIRTAN IN SIRI HARIMANDIR SAHIB. Yes i may agree that women can not form Panj Piyre, because Guru Gobind Singh ji only got five male sikhs who offered their heads at that time in Anad Pur Sahib.



I have to disagree with you and if I was told my spiritual progression entirely depended on men (if only men could be panj pyare) I would actually avoid ever taking Amrit as a matter of making a point. Women do not need to rely on men... It sends a very bad message. 

The original five their gender did not matter at all. A .insert male organ here. Is not needed for a very spiritual event.  They are not stirring the Amrit with their you know what's.  

To place any restrictions on one gender and not the other goes against Sikh teachings of equality period. Including panj pyare.

And SRM states women and man can both do it. That should be end of story...,panthic decisions outweigh any jatha or individual. Even guru Gobind Singh Ji diverted decisions to the panth, and he gave FULL authority to the panj payres. So if they go by SRM allowing women to be panj then they exercised full rights given by Guru Ji!


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## Abneet (Aug 30, 2014)

Akasha said:


> I have to disagree with you and if I was told my spiritual progression entirely depended on men (if only men could be panj pyare) I would actually avoid ever taking Amrit as a matter of making a point. Women do not need to rely on men... It sends a very bad message.
> 
> The original five their gender did not matter at all. A .insert male organ here. Is not needed for a very spiritual event.  They are not stirring the Amrit with their you know what's.
> 
> ...



I'm am still waiting for evidence of women being part of punj pyare in the 1700 and 1800 century. You have to understand the original punj pyare as we are to resemble them when we do amrit sanchar with 5 men. Please if you think taking amrit by men only will effect your own path in Sikhi then don't take it simple as that.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 30, 2014)

Abneet said:


> I'm am still waiting for evidence of women being part of punj pyare in the 1700 and 1800 century.




Sat sri akaal  Abneet ,

SRM  clearly allows Women to be Panj Pyara ,  there s  no issue regarding that .


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 31, 2014)

Abneet said:


> I'm am still waiting for evidence of women being part of punj pyare in the 1700 and 1800 century. You have to understand the original punj pyare as we are to resemble them when we do amrit sanchar with 5 men. Please if you think taking amrit by men only will effect your own path in Sikhi then don't take it simple as that.



You misunderstand. I don't care if five men, five women, a mixture or a purple elephant give me Amrit... I said if it were indeed true that only men were allowed to be panj payres then it makes the statement that women must rely in men for spiritual progression as every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. It sends the message that men are somehow closer to [God] than women or that women are lacking spiritually.  If that were the case (which it isn't because the panth has spoken and SRM states gender of panj payre does not matter) but if it did then I would refuse to ever take Amrit just to make a point. 

Who cares if there were or weren't females between 1700-1800. Sikhi is not about tradition.  Guru Gobind Singh Ji never restricted women from it. I'm sure it would have been in his 52 humans if gender was that important to him.... He wrote those in 1708, 9 whole years later.  But he was completely silent. 

When will people start to get away from this social hierarchy created based on gender? SGGS speaks against any form of social or class status.... That includes gender.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 31, 2014)

Akasha said:


> You misunderstand. I don't care if five men, five women, a mixture or a purple elephant give me Amrit... I said if it were indeed true that only men were allowed to be panj payres then it makes the statement that women must rely in men for spiritual progression as every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. It sends the message that men are somehow closer to [God] than women or that women are lacking spiritually. If that were the case (which it isn't because the panth has spoken and SRM states gender of panj payre does not matter) but if it did then I would refuse to ever take Amrit just to make a point.
> 
> Who cares if there were or weren't females between 1700-1800. Sikhi is not about tradition. Guru Gobind Singh Ji never restricted women from it. I'm sure it would have been in his 52 humans if gender was that important to him.... He wrote those in 1708, 9 whole years later. But he was completely silent.
> 
> When will people start to get away from this social hierarchy created based on gender? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks against any form of social or class status.... That includes gender.


 
I would like to pick some holes in the above post, there are some facts that have been portrayed as true, when in fact they clearly are not. 

A purple elephant has no hands, so therefore cannot give amrit, the only way it could do it, (btw is it a male or a female purple elephant?), would be with its trunk, and if it got the pressure or the timing wrong, it could spell disaster. 

Also where would it be fitted for clothes? The only place I know that makes clothes in that size would be a place my ex wife used to go to, although, at least an elephant clearly has a smaller bottom. 

I myself would have no problem taking amrit from a purple elephant, I certainly would not feel having taken amrit from it, I was then reliant on the elephant for spiritual progression for the rest of my life, the only person that we are ever reliant for such is ourselves, surely.


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## Abneet (Aug 31, 2014)

Akasha said:


> You misunderstand. I don't care if five men, five women, a mixture or a purple elephant give me Amrit... I said if it were indeed true that only men were allowed to be panj payres then it makes the statement that women must rely in men for spiritual progression as every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. It sends the message that men are somehow closer to [God] than women or that women are lacking spiritually.  If that were the case (which it isn't because the panth has spoken and SRM states gender of panj payre does not matter) but if it did then I would refuse to ever take Amrit just to make a point.
> 
> Who cares if there were or weren't females between 1700-1800. Sikhi is not about tradition.  Guru Gobind Singh Ji never restricted women from it. I'm sure it would have been in his 52 humans if gender was that important to him.... He wrote those in 1708, 9 whole years later.  But he was completely silent.
> 
> When will people start to get away from this social hierarchy created based on gender? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks against any form of social or class status.... That includes gender.



Who cares if there no females between 1800 and 1800? Don't you think Guru Gobind Singh Ji made parchariks and spread them throughout India to spread Sikhi and chuk amrit? So don't you think it was all Men ever since 1699. Sikhi is about tradition to be honest. If this is the only case you find of gender equality I don't see it being such a big issue to not want to take amrit. From whoever you take amrit from is amrit no difference from men and women in punj pyare as SRM states but I am saying punj pyare should be men only. Punj pyare are in the Guru's form themselves. Not such a big issue to fuss about.


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## kggr001 (Aug 31, 2014)

Abneet said:


> but I am saying punj pyare should be men only. Punj pyare are in the Guru's form themselves. Not such a big issue to fuss about.



You should realize that even a bad person can become one of the Punj Pyare's, would that person also be in your eyes the Guru's form themself? You should stop looking at the outer the inner is much more important.


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Aug 31, 2014)

The main issue is that our baptized women should be allowed to do,kirtan inside Harmandir Sahib at Golden  Temple, not that they should form Panj Piyare or not.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2014)

The "FORM" of the "GURU"..ha ha ha..in what way is the SGGS...the "FORM" of the Ten Masters ?? I KNOW for a FACT that many who think that way are often mentally thinking..AM I Waving the CHAUR SAHIB..too HIGH?? Too LOW....why ?? Because they beleive the TEN MASTERS are there in their "FORM"...and the chaur waved too LOW will HIT Guru Harkrishan Ji in his FACE..as He is just a child of 8 standing beside his Grandfatehr Guru Hargobind Sahib ji who is 6Ft ++ Tall !!!..I Nearly died laughing when a "devout" sevadaar who mostly grabs the chaur seva in my local gurdwara confided this FEAR in me..he said..Thats why I take over Chaur Seva..i am afraid the "ignorant" sikhs may irritate the Gurus !!!  

I have said time and again...IF we SIKHS disregard the DIVINTY of the MESSAGE..and pay too much unwarranted attention to "forms, humans, Limbs, Aangs, human traits like feeling hungry, cold, warm, etc etc etc"..we will fall into a CHAKARVIEW MAZE that has no OUTLET....The GURU is NOT about form...its the MESSAGE !!! in Child form(Guru harkishan)..in Old man form (Guru Amardass Ji)..in BOOK FORM SGGS JI..FORM IS NOT IMPORTANT....its the MESSAGE.

SIKHS have FAILED the MESSAGE...thats why they massage the wooden legs of palkis, they make palkis of GOLD..they make covers of layers of cloth, they install airconditioners that shortcircuit very very frequently and BURN the SGGS to ASHES..and then they hold Akhand paaths of REPENTANCE but commit the same mistakes again and again...they put water in gharras and bottles nearby the SGGS for the GURBANI to "seep" into and drink (MAGIC LOVE POTION"......Hocus Pocus ha ha that instead of following the MESSAGE !!

Mata Bhag kaur cna lead a shaeedee jatha but cant be a PUNJ?? Mata Sahib kaur..mata Sundar Kaur..mata GUJar Kaur..all not suitable for PUNJ ?? becasue of GENDER ??? Whats happened to the Divine UNIVERSAL MESSAGE..a Jitt Jammeh GURU cannot be  a PUNJ ?? Is the Guru nanak Question of so kion mandah akheyeyah ONLY limited ????? Mata Gujjar kaur cna Give Birth to and raise a GENERATION of GURUS..but she is UNSUITABLE for PUNJ ??? wheres the LOGIC ??

The SIKH KAUR = SIKH SINGH. PERIOD. Rest is FALLACY created by VESTED INTERESTS !! Just like the wily BIPPAR created the SATI RITUAL to DENY Woamn the right to her dead husbands properties etc...the WILY "BABADOM?DERAWADEE SOCH" has created this fallacy to MONOPLOLISE the Paathees, ragis, kirtnaiyah, kathawachak, punj, granthi , jathedar etc etc ROLES for THEMSELVES !!! GURBANI DENIES THIS and quite clearly..follow the GURU..not man made DERAWADEE BABAS.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2014)

As LONG as this derawadee soch exists..NO SINGHANNEE can become JATHEDAR of TAKHAT ?? that is also monopoly...???? Mata Bhag Kaur can lead a shaeedee jatha into Battle but she cant be JATHEDAR of AKAL TAKHAT ????  Would the GURU allow this ??? Does the SGGS Sanction this...??? Male Chauvanism was NEVER a SIKH thing...


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## Abneet (Sep 1, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> As LONG as this derawadee soch exists..NO SINGHANNEE can become JATHEDAR of TAKHAT ?? that is also monopoly...???? Mata Bhag Kaur can lead a shaeedee jatha into Battle but she cant be JATHEDAR of AKAL TAKHAT ????  Would the GURU allow this ??? Does the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Sanction this...??? Male Chauvanism was NEVER a SIKH thing...



Why did Vaheguru send gurus as males then?


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## aristotle (Sep 1, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Why did Vaheguru send gurus as males then?



Is Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj male?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

Abneet ji..ask Vaheguru.

Some one also wanted to ask..Why Bebeh nanaki was sterile ? Why her husband continued to love her never the less..and the couple passed life issueless..?? Why Didnt they just put in a "polite request" to Guru nanak ji for a SON..or SEVEN SOONS..as even a HORSE of the Guru can grant a sterile woman SEVEN SONS in a Row !!! Bebeh nanaki didnt ask..Her husband didnt ask..Mata Tripta ji never asked..ALL those HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of "Sikh" women matha teking at Baba DERAS..looking for SONS...???..do they KNOW something bebeh nanaki didnt know ??

I told him/her to go ask GURU NANAK....any time..anywhere the SGGS is present and you can READ GURBANI.  The Answers are there.period.  Guru nanak Ji also answers of WHY the Gurus were all Male !!!..its our fault for NOT realizing the ANSWER is in plain sight....All we got to do is open the SGGS and open our Minds..instead of asking the nearest DERAWADEEE SOCH BOUND Baba or waddeh baba Ji etc.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

The other day a Christian friend asked me..MY "God" made a VIRGIN woman pregnant...why didnt your vaheguru do that ?? You Sikhs refer to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Akal Purakhs SON..etc etc BUT He was BORN the ordinary way as humans are..How could HE be the same as Jesus ??

I think the "Sikhs" who pose similar questions are of the same mentality...They ASK humans like ME..instead of asking VAHEGURU !!!!:welcomekaur:


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The other day a Christian friend asked me..MY "God" made a VIRGIN woman pregnant...why didnt your vaheguru do that ?? You Sikhs refer to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Akal Purakhs SON..etc etc BUT He was BORN the ordinary way as humans are..How could HE be the same as Jesus ??
> 
> I think the "Sikhs" who pose similar questions are of the same mentality...They ASK humans like ME..instead of asking VAHEGURU !!!!:welcomekaur:



Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

If the Christian God made a virgin pregnant, then many questions come to mind.

1. Why would this omnipotent god break his own rules that he established?
2. Isn't that heresy by this Christian god?
3. When this virgin pregnant woman gave birth to the Son of God Jesus, did she lose her virginity then or was it a C Section?

Having said that, I love his Chinese mentality  before even the Chinese thought of it, which is of one child per couple. Or did the Communist country adopt Christian god's idea?

Just thinking aloud! 

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth said:


> The main issue is that our baptized women should be allowed to do, kirtan inside Harmandir Sahib at Golden  Temple, not that they should form Panj Piyare or not.



Yes, it is true but Equality is the corner stone that Akasha ji is discussing quite well, courageously and very passionately I might add. Both things are about Equality in Sikhi and we should practice them equally.

Does someone know that anyone, Amritdhari or not, Sikhs or not can do keertan at Darbar Sahib?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: A request to Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth. Would you be kind enough to address the person/s in your posts so we can understand who/what are you responding to  or quote their posts as I did with yours? Thanks


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## Abneet (Sep 1, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Abneet ji..ask Vaheguru.
> 
> Some one also wanted to ask..Why Bebeh nanaki was sterile ? Why her husband continued to love her never the less..and the couple passed life issueless..?? Why Didnt they just put in a "polite request" to Guru nanak ji for a SON..or SEVEN SOONS..as even a HORSE of the Guru can grant a sterile woman SEVEN SONS in a Row !!! Bebeh nanaki didnt ask..Her husband didnt ask..Mata Tripta ji never asked..ALL those HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of "Sikh" women matha teking at Baba DERAS..looking for SONS...???..do they KNOW something bebeh nanaki didnt know ??
> 
> I told him/her to go ask GURU NANAK....any time..anywhere the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is present and you can READ GURBANI.  The Answers are there.period.  Guru nanak Ji also answers of WHY the Gurus were all Male !!!..its our fault for NOT realizing the ANSWER is in plain sight....All we got to do is open the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and open our Minds..instead of asking the nearest DERAWADEEE SOCH BOUND Baba or waddeh baba Ji etc.



I knew the answer I was just asking your point of view of the question.


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## Kulbirrose (Sep 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Why did Vaheguru send gurus as males then?



Wahe Guru Ji Ki Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!  Greetings, all!
 Excellent question!  Why did God send Jesus as a male?  And Siddartha the Bhudda?  And Abraham?  and that guy Mohammed?  Why all these guys?

 I had been wondering that for quite some time, and then the reason finally occurred to me.  It is because males have louder voices.
 I know, that sounds very smart/alecky, but it is true.  Males have louder voices that can be heard over longer distances, by and large.  It would have been easier to hear a man than a woman.  Not only that, but in those times, and much of today's times, people will listen to a man before they will listen to a woman; it's a cultural/societal thing.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 3, 2014)

Kulbirrose said:


> Wahe Guru Ji Ki Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh! Greetings, all!
> Excellent question! Why did God send Jesus as a male? And Siddartha the Bhudda? And Abraham? and that guy Mohammed? Why all these guys?
> 
> I had been wondering that for quite some time, and then the reason finally occurred to me. It is because males have louder voices.
> I know, that sounds very smart/alecky, but it is true. Males have louder voices that can be heard over longer distances, by and large. It would have been easier to hear a man than a woman. Not only that, but in those times, and much of today's times, people will listen to a man before they will listen to a woman; it's a cultural/societal thing.


 
you have not met my wife then


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