# The "Truth" Revealed. Its An Offense To Speak Punjabi At UNO



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

Recently Dr Harshinder Kaur a Punjab Govt Medical Doctor went to the UNICEF at UNO to represent Punjab.
She apparently committed three serious offensces..serious enough to get her sacked..
1. She Spoke PUNJABI- a definite "offense" as "civilised Indians" only speak Hindi/English especially at International Forums..
2. She BUSTED the MYTH spread by the authorities that PUNJAB "leads" in Female Foeticide..has the largest Male-Female ratio imbalance in India...and that SIKHS are the worlds number ONE GIRL CHILD KILLERS.. Dr Harshinder Kaur was "warned" by an Indian official attached to the UNO (in PUBLIC) to not dispute officla Indian Govt statistics...but she persisted at teh TRUTH..another SERIOUS OFFENSE !!.
3. She IGNORED the rantings and publicly issued warnings of the female Indian Govt Offixial attached to the UNO Mission to stop...or she will suffer the consequences on her return to India...that is another and her last offense...and she realised that this official spoke the "truth" about seriosu consequences..wehn the PUNJAB GOVT issued her a SACK NOTICE on her return to Official Duties..

So Now the Cat is OUT of the Bag....PUNJAB..and SIKHS are selectively at the receiving end of a vicious propoganda campaign...the netire thing baout Female foeticide..Punjab being the state with highest female-male imbalance..SIKHS beign biggest Kurree Maars in the world...are all a selective persecution and propoganda campaign to MALIGN.
Here is the Complete Interview with Dr Harshinder Kaur...from the Rozana Spokesman Online............. Mirror Website

mirrorfullpage

In my next posting i will translate relevant portions into English so SPNers can get the full picture... SPN has also been "guilty" of propogating this MYTH..as we have several articles on SIKHS/PUNJAB being Numero Uno in Killing of Child Girls !! Hopefully this will  set the record straight.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The "truth" revealed..its an offense to speak Punjabi at UNO...*

Here is the Complete Interview..


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The "truth" revealed..its an offense to speak Punjabi at UNO...*

SPN has also been "guilty" of propogating this MYTH..as we have several articles on Sikhs/PUNJAB being Numero Uno in Killing of Child Girls !! Hopefully this will  set the record straight.                                   __________________

Gyani ji - How did the doctor, Dr. Harshinder Kaur, who was sacked, came to her conclusions? And why does the Indian government disagree?  What evidence do they counter with? So your translation is really going to be important for a balanced conclusion.


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## Admin (Aug 7, 2009)

Gyani Ji & Narayanjot Ji, i would not call this a guilty act on SPN's part... this we had to do either for Sikhs to do introspection or bring the facts to full public view... our 'attack' on a Sikh's conscience was an effort of instigate someone to reveal the truth... so, i would rather take our propaganda as a catalyst... this revelation by Dr. Harjinder Kaur sounds music to the ears of a Sikh... 

Although the fact remains that the numbers of female infanticides in Punjab are still alarming... not necessarily Sikhs may the number one guilty party... Kudos to Kaur Power, who single handed did a ShoeGate act like by Jarnail Singh Ji, The Journalist...!! :happy:


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2009)

Aman ji 

Neither do I see SPN as a guilty party. The statistics will be reviewed and we shall see what the Indian government has been up to


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

Question One:
You have been punished without inquiry..due process...what have you to say ?
Ans: Truth hurts..presently our ears are not conditioned to hear the TRUTH.
Q:How did you know about the sacking ?
A: From the newspapers...i learnt that P SriVastav - the female Indian oficial at the UNICEF wrote to the authorities that I undermined India and spoke against the Govt so I should be removed..and I WAS.( She had warned me in NY that she had this power )
Q:Were you asked to offer an explanation ?
A: NO not at all. I wasnt even given  a hearing.
Look at my record..I have on my own held over 250 Village Medical Camps to offer free medical benefits to Punjab Villages. I have in 184 villages held WAKE UP CAMPS to HALT FEMALE FOETICIDE. I have been active in over 70 Colleges and Schools to Hold such Educational Seminars, organise activities to monitor and make awareness about this problem. I have become the VOICE of the underprivileged or Girls who are victims of abuse/whose voice is not heard..I have got legal aid for these Girls...I have been awarded the MS Randhawa Award for bringing health Consciousness to Punjab People through my writings..I was Best female Writer Award winner in an International Ceremony held in pakistan recently... I have personally sponsored over 300 poor  female Punjabi students for education...I have always held the Flag of Punjabi flying high..I spoke PUNJABI at the UNICEF UNO to make an effort at promoting PUNJABI..( this was a Firts time ever Punjabi was spoken at this International Venue)..I begged UNICEF to give aid to POOR Punjabi Female Students for education... and Finally I EXPOSED the LIE that Punjab and Sikhs lead in Female Child Killings...FOR these I GOT THE SACK.
Q: So which of these actually hurt P?Srivastav the MOST ??
A: IF it was anyone...which one..I also dont know.
She didnt like me SPEAKING IN PUNJABI.
She didnt like em EXPOSING Falsified figures and statistics - she warned me to take this up in Punjab and not on an international Platform...I replied ...I am INVITED by an international Forum..so I will speak my mind HERE. I am invited because the World wants to know why Punjab and SIKHS are the number one killers of Girl children ?..and I am going to set the record straight no matter what may come.
Then when I asked UNICEF for educational Aid for Poor Females in Punjab..this woman got incensed and announced that 100% of Punjabi Girls get free education.. and Punjabs literacy rate is also 100%...so there is no need for any such aid to punjab. I replied that Punjabs literacy rate is actually 64% and NOT all Females get free education in Punjab.
It was then that this lady warned me of DIRE CONSEQUENCES upon my return to INDIA. This threat proved to be TRUE.
UNICEF and the International Human Rights Comission ahs given me a CERTIFICATE to prove that I never spoke against any Govt..nor did anything wrong. The Really interesting fact is that Maharani Parneet Kaur of Patiala who is the one in charge fo thsi Department has also given me an appreciation Letter. SO is KP Srivastav higher even than her own Raaj minister ?? she has so much "power" even in far away PUNJAB ??
Now the PEOPLE can decide...did i speak the truth ??
ARE ALL Punjabi Females given FREE EDUCATION ? IS Punjab 100% literate ? Doesnt Punjab need or qualify for UNIEF AID ?
Q: you have lost your Govt Job..how are you going to survive..?
A: they only took away my "job"..NOT my HONOUR..not my EDUCATION..Not my Vocation...my SKILLS are still with me...so I will use them for the benefit of my people as always..
Q: any thoughts about politic career..
A: NO. I am a people SERVANT...Janta sevak...I will be a Doctor till the day i die..
Q: All over the Diaspora Sikhs and in Punjab..a strong voice in your support has arisen...
A: I thank everyone for their support..i appreciate it. The Media has done a wonderful job...
Q: what advise for the Punjabis..
A: Please do continue to give birth to GIRL CHILDREN...give them the strength to SURVIVE, be STRONG to fight agaisnt social evils, be educated equally..make them of Character that stand up against all that society can throw at them.and emerge winners...those are the type of Daughters Punjab needs...I will always propogate such views wherever I go...as a Private Citizen...:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The "truth" revealed..its an offense to speak Punjabi at UNO...*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> SPN has also been "guilty" of propogating this MYTH..as we have several articles on Sikhs/PUNJAB being Numero Uno in Killing of Child Girls !! Hopefully this will  set the record straight.                                   __________________
> 
> Gyani ji - How did the doctor, Dr. Harshinder Kaur, who was sacked, came to her conclusions? And why does the Indian government disagree?  What evidence do they counter with? So your translation is really going to be important for a balanced conclusion.



Aman ji and Narayanjyot kaur Ji...and all SPNers..
the word "guilty" is in inverted commas...
Its a tongue in cheek commentary...and being a SPNer myself..I am also equally "guilty"...he he he..
The Translation is a off the cuff job..please excuse some ommissions..will correct them as we go along..Thanks for ......


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 7, 2009)

My Punjabi is not up to reading the article.

Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji,

I sincerely pray that this is true and that we are not really murdering our daughters.  I want it to be true for all sorts of reasons, not the least that I am tired of harping on it.

Yes, the GOI (government of India) has a long history (well, as long as India has been a country) of maligning us Sikhs, so such a plot would be believable.

I eagerly await the evidence.

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Aman ji
> 
> Neither do I see SPN as a guilty party. The statistics will be reviewed and we shall see what the Indian government has been up to



Narayanjyot Kaur ji..
gurafteh.

The interesting part is that..the "GOI" is NOT officially implicated..in any way...the UNICEF Authorities issued Dr Harshinder Kaur a Certificate fo Appreciation, the State Minister of the relevant dept in New Delhi Parneet Kaur has issued her a Letter of appreciation...BUT a mere "word" from KP SriVastav...through the Newspapers..got the Badal govt to SACK the Good doctor without even a Haan ji..Kee haal hai ?? Funny isnt it ?? Hopefully the TRUTH will Emerge ??


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The "truth" revealed..its an offense to speak Punjabi at UNO...*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Aman ji and Narayanjyot kaur Ji...and all SPNers..
> the word "guilty" is in inverted commas...
> Its a tongue in cheek commentary...and being a SPNer myself..I am also equally "guilty"...he he he..
> The Translation is a off the cuff job..please excuse some ommissions..will correct them as we go along..Thanks for ......



Thank you for clearing it up Gyani. i was feeling caught in the middle of something.

I agree with Mai -- that the Indian government has already demonstrated its capacity of "shaping the truth" -- and it is not the only government to do so. On the other hand, Sikhs have suffered from factual distortions in the past, many many times. On the other hand, we still need to have a way to compare the evidence for the sake of being able as a forum to be balanced and strive for accuracy. 

I appreciate your efforts in the translation -- without it a bunch of us would be dependent on "taking the word" of this or that vested party or interest. So you are doing us a lot of good.


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Narayanjyot Kaur ji..
> gurafteh.
> 
> The interesting part is that..the "GOI" is NOT officially implicated..in any way...the UNICEF Authorities issued Dr Harshinder Kaur a Certificate fo Appreciation, the State Minister of the relevant dept in New Delhi Parneet Kaur has issued her a Letter of appreciation...BUT a mere "word" from KP SriVastav...through the Newspapers..got the Badal govt to SACK the Good doctor without even a Haan ji..Kee haal hai ?? Funny isnt it ?? Hopefully the TRUTH will Emerge ??



You are right. This is really fishy. So I have to say that as long as the Badals are taking up space and oxygen in high places -- is anyone going to get to the bottom of anything?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

Aman ji..THANKS for doing what i should have done (but was lazy !! as i am rushing off to a paath raol). Appreciated Ji.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 7, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,

I add my appreciative voice in thanks for your translation to Narayanjoy ji's.  (I just noticed my mis-spelling of Narayanjot's name.. Please forgive me for not correcting it.  A bit of Freudian joy is joyful

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai


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## jaswinderjass (Aug 8, 2009)

Gurfateh ji,

 The job for which Punjab Govt. have to issue a special attention to Dr.Harshinder Kaur, for her achivement of speaking Punjabi in UN & for clearing the actuall facts ,but as usuall Punjab Govt. is not concerned to development of Punjabi. They r only concerned to themselves. Did they enquired any thing for which Dr.Harshinder kaur has been sacked.Did they given any chance to proove herself.The only answer No.No. and No... 

The Punjab Govt has prooved at many stages that development of Punjab or Punjabi is not their concern... If anybody want that then he have to work for that,and we will see how u b able to do that....

But I request to all the readers of SPN,all sikhs & punjabi lovers, to support Dr.Harshinder Kaur & to write about her at all blogs & forums.....

Ik hor benti hai app sab pass, kirpa kar k SPN vich v punjabi istemal(use) karni shuru karo. Koshish karo k zyadatar istemal Punjabi da ho sake... 

kyoni J asin Dr.Harshinder Kaur ji nu support karna chande han ta kam se kam asi app v punjabi vich support kariye ta hi fayedaa hai... haan naal translation v de sakde has.kise khas case vich...

Galtian boht hundian han,so app kirpa kar k samjhaa dena...

Gurfateh Ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 8, 2009)

HERE ARE A FEW MORE NEWS ITEMS ON dR hARSHINDER kAUR..punjab dee dhee !!

*Indian IAS officer threatens Dr              Harshinder Kaur

*




​ 
SWITZERLAND:              In a blatant threat for merely raising a significant issue of              interest to the Punjabi and Sikh community, a senior civil service              official of  Punjab              threatened an outspoken Punjabi woman after she raised the matter of              mis-spent money by the government of  India.

P Srivastava, a              senior IAS officer who was representing the Indian delegation at the              United Nations' organised international conference in Switzerland,              took umbrage when Dr Harshinder Kaur, a specialist in childcare              working with Patiala's Rajindra Hospital, said the money given as              grant to the Indian government was not being spent properly for the              education of girl child and it was the UN looked into the way the              funds are utilized.

It was a              perfectly valid point and has been made many times by other human              rights activists and civil society people but in an effort to prove              the loyalty, the IAS officer started threatening Dr Harshinder Kaur              and said she had no business to critique India at a global forum.

Dr Kaur was even              told that the troubles will start as soon as she will land back in              India. She has confirmed the exchange in interviews with some              reporters.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 8, 2009)

FATEHGARH SAHIB:  Noted Punjabi writer and a pediatrician Dr Harshindar Kaur has complained to Chairperson, Human Rights Council, and UN against P. Srivastava Indian repersentative in UNO for allegedly threatening her at the UN office during her recent visit. 

  Dr Kaur presented a lecture at the United National Headquarters in Geneva during an international conference of 11th session of Human Rights Council as she had been invited by Interfaith International, an NGO affiliated with the United Nations. Dr Kaur is the daughter of eminent Punjabi scholar Dr Pritam Singh and grand daughter of Giani Sahib Singh, a great Sikh scholar.

Dr Harsindar Kaur informed this correspondent here Saturday that she was working on issues of woman in India with special reference to female foeticide in India and Punjab fore more than 8 years. Her research work has been published in various National, International Newspapers and magazines. She have been bestowed  various award by Punjab government, the United Nations, New Zealand, Canada and literary honours by Pakistan and various social organizations. She had been invited by an NGO to Geneva to talk about women problems in India. 

She said in her talk at Geneva she had pointed that it was very essential to educate the women and girls of Punjab to make them aware of their rights and to alleviate their sufferings. For this, UN must give aid to needy girls in their education directly as it should reach at grass level where the aid is not reaching.  She said he is giving monetary help to 300 needy girls for their education through her own trust. This issue was disliked by a participant P. Srivastava and she threatened her after she finished her talk and came out of hall and advised her not to visit UN ever again if she has to utter any government. She clarified repeatedly that said she has not uttered anything about government but was worried only about education of poor girls of Punjab. 
She alleged that P. Srivastava threatened her on June 8, 2009 at 2.45 pm outside Lecture Hall no. XXVIII at the UN office in General identified herself as a very senior government official from India. She verbally threatened her that she has contacted high officials in India and Punjab on telephone and that she can harm the once she is in India. 

She said there is no past contact with the said person or the NGO which had invited her to Geneva to talk Women problems in India. 
Dr Harshinder Kaur, who is consultant pediatrician at Rajindra Hospital, Patiala,  a crusader for women rights and who has made a mark in the field of female foeticide . Dr Kaur’s paper presented in Geneva elucidated the status of women in India and especially Punjab. Sharing the Government of India and Punjab official data and UNICEF and WHO data, Dr Kaur highlighted the  abysmal state of women in India. She declared female foeticide and infanticide as the prime targets for official intervention. She exhorted the United Nations  to donate liberally and help the poor and needy girls of Punjab on their education and for their health and to ensure that the monetary help reaches the grass root level. 

She gave to lectures in English and also with the permission of the Chairman of the council, spoke in Punjabi.  It was the first even occasion when Punjabi language was spoken at the U.N.  She translated the stanzas in Punjabi into English herself. 

Giving elaborate date she was able to convince the delegates drawn from more than 180 countries that Punjabi are not the main culprits doing female foeticde. She elaborated the main reasons behind female foeticide as dowry, lack of support to old parents and exploitation of women.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 8, 2009)

*Harshinder’s book adjudged best in Pakistan  
 Varinder Walia
          Tribune News Service             *
Amritsar, April 5
Paediatrician-cum-writer Harshinder Kaur has become the first Punjabi woman writer from Punjab who was awarded the prestigious Masood Khadarposh Award in her absence at a glittering function held in Pakistan yesterday. 
However, due to a volatile situation in Pakistan, Dr Harshinder Kaur could not get the visa to attend the function. In an e-mail sent to the Masood Khadarposh Trust, Dr Harshinder Kaur, however, urged the organisers to distribute the award money among destitute women. The award also carries cash, citation and memento. 
The jury of the Pakistani Trust adjudged her book, “Maan Boli: Ik Doctri Drishtikon” (Mother tongue: A doctor’s perspective) as the best book of the year, authored by a foreigner. The book is being translated into Pashto, Sindhi, Urdu and English. It has already been transliterated into Shahmukhi (Persian script). 
The book raises apprehensions about the bleak future of Punjabi on the basis of a Unesco report on languages which read: “Most languages disappear because their speakers voluntarily abandon them”


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 8, 2009)

*Govt acts against her because she spoke up for your daughters*

*



Chandigarh, Punjab:* She spoke out for the daughters of Punjab who remain neglected and for whose welfare the Punjab government claims to be working day and night. At an international forum in Geneva, she countered falsehoods peddled by an Indian officer that Punjab has high literacy and that all girls have access to education.

She is the daughter of one of Punjab’s most extra-ordinary scholars, Prof Pritam Singh, and also a sister of Vice Chancellor Dr Jairup Singh of Central University, Bathinda. But more than that, she is a Sikh woman who knows her mind.

Posted as a pediatrician at Rajindra Government Medical College and Hospital at Patiala, Harshinder Kaur told the UN human rights council gathering in Geneva in June that literacy rate in Punjab was dismal 65 per cent and that global agencies like the UNICEF should be sending money directly to NGOs working in the field. Clearly, the government was ill equipped to spend the money and much is siphoned off, but an Indian official, P Srivastava, complained to the External Affairs Ministry that despite being a government servant, she has criticized India at an international forum.

Now, she stands unceremoniously relieved of her charge has been asked to report to Chandigarh to explain ‘why she spoke against the government during her address in Geneva’.

While a number of Sikh bodies across the world have backed Dr Harshinder Kaur’s stance and have hailed her for telling it the way it is, Dr Kaur has also refused to take it lying down. She has now moved the High Court, challenging her transfer and plans to fight it out.

Govt acts against her because she spoke up for your daughters | Global Sikh News


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## spnadmin (Aug 8, 2009)

Gyani ji

This is a key sentence in an earlier post - not the one just above. Giving elaborate data she was able to convince the delegates drawn from more than 180 countries that Punjabi are not the main culprits doing female foeticde. She elaborated the main reasons behind female foeticide as dowry, lack of support to old parents and exploitation of women. Her comments about the rate of female foeticide in Punjab are actually part of a bigger list of issues Dr. Harshinder Kaur has tackled  (including the implication that money earmarked for education is not going where it is supposed to go.)-- and which I think are the base reasons why she was sacked.* The Doctor has taken on a list of issues that are chronic ailments that have gone untreated. *That is what made people nervousl
 
Two reactions: We should find that data to know just how distorted the messages by the government against Punjab have been in the matter of female foeticide. We should also commend her for speaking to the causes of the practice of female foeticide, because numbers have no meaning in a vacuum.

Please let me play the role of the devil's advocate from time to time in this thread. For sure a person who "represents" the government of a nation will be sacked if they question not just the data but also the intentions of the government -- however truthful that person may be. That is what happened. Dr. Harshinder Kaur did not see herself as just one more functionary playing her part.

She was indeed sacked. BUT -- as a person - as a doctor - asa practitioner of medical science -- was she supposed to give up professional and scientific independence of thought and action because he/she is a "representative?" This is where a miss-step on the part of her supervisor was made and the sequence of consequences is now irreversible. 

It is going to be a very informative episode in the history of the UN and UNICEF!


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 8, 2009)

I am not taking sides here.  I do not know who is telling the truth and who is lying (or distorting or misinterpreting the data, purposely or otherwise.)  I am, of course, always suspicioius of GOI (government of India) as they have a long record of being anti-Sikh. 

I am most interested in learning the truth of the matter.  However it turns out, whether Dr. Harshinder Kaur's facts/interpretation is correct or that of GOI is correct or whether - as I suspect - the truth lies somewhere in between, I just want the truth.  Why is that so difficult.  I am/was a scientist.  I work with facts/data/truth.

"The truth?  You can't handle the truth!"

Aw, but I can;  it's the lies that are making me crazy.:{;o::crazy:

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 8, 2009)

apart from this woman being a Sikh, what does this episode have anything to do with so called "Sikh persecution" by govt of india?

Was she there representing Sikhs or State of punjab or as a specialist of the field?

I think she was there as a specialist of the field with respect to punjab, not sikhs

Did she present data regarding sikh and non sikhs?

i think she presented data on punjab and disputed the government data. She might be correct, but what does it have to do with Sikhs and where is the "sikh persecution"

 it's funny how people twist an incident to make it look like a conspiracy against sikhs

btw

punjab has only 63% population as Sikhs and there are more punjabi speakers in pakistan than india

worldwide there are more non sikh speakers of punjabi than sikhs

Sikhs do not have a "divine" right over punjabi, the language existed long before Sikhs

it's time we remove our tinted glasses and look at the incident objectively.


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## harbansj24 (Aug 9, 2009)

As I see there are 2 issues and lets not get mixed up on both:



The male female ratio in Punjab
Dealing with issues that lead to female foeticide in Punjab.
1. It will be foolhardy to dispute the census data of the Government of India without any alternate authentic and credible data. As everybody residing in India knows that the census exercise is meticulous and a professionally carried out door to door exercise. The ground level workers doing this exercise are local school teachers who have little stake in falsifying the records in an organized mass scale.
*Questioning this data will create an atmosphere of incredulity which will put a question mark over your subsequent genuine arguments.*

2. There certainly is merit in the argument that Punjab Government is doing little deal with issues that lead to female foeticide or infanticide.
Much more is being done by the Ragis and Kathakars in Punjab notably by people like Bhai Gur Iqbal Singh ji and Giani Pinderpal Singh ji.

Many a times Sikhs are known to have a rush of blood and are known to kill their own otherwise genuine cases in International forums by making wild and unsubstantiated statements and claims.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> apart from this woman being a Sikh, what does this episode have anything to do with so called "Sikh persecution" by govt of india?
> 
> Was she there representing Sikhs or State of punjab or as a specialist of the field?
> 
> ...



Bhai huck Ji, gurfateh.

Sometimes we have to "remove" our own tinted glasses to see whether the other fellow is indeed wearing tinted glasses or its our own TINT reflecting in his transparent glasses.

Hindu "Punjabis" have never defended far from propogating anything Punjabi on their own...this may be because i personally havent come across any such "punjabi hindu"..except the many many sitting in Bollywood and producing movies perpetually making fun of Sikhs and Punjab. Same applies to the Lala Owned Newspapers in Punjab...99% of the time they are spewing anti sikh/anti punjabi venom..since the pre partition days..maybe someone could dig into theri archives and put up an article praising punjabi/punjab/sikhs which i may have missed (due to my heavily tinted glasses - I had an Laser eye op 5 years ago and now dont wear any glasses..but i still cant find any such articles..!! BUT PLENTY that are RABIDLY anti sikh/anti punjab/anti punjabi.). I will Gladly begin wearing transparent/tint free glasses just to please any such non tinted Punjabi hindu.:whisling:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

Bhai huck Finni Jio,
IS this also a case of  a person wearing tinted glasses..?  To some it will Sure look that way... maybe they will even say that the TINT seems a BLACKOUT like they used to do during WWII times ?? he he Tarlochan Singh former Chairman of Minorites Comission of the Govt of India seesm to be wearing heavily tinted glasses..is the tint real..imagined..or simply ebcause he is no more a GOI Official ?? In my sight..he says the right things..and I support him 110%.
YouTube - Tarlochan Singh on Indian Government's discrimination towards sikhs


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

another one..
YouTube - Tarlochan Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

A Sikh Woman in Indian Parliament elected from Bihar speaks the *UNTINTED* TRUTH..
ALL the Speakser cna say is Ho Giyah..Ho Giyah..Bass Karo Ok Ok..TRUTH HURTS.
YouTube - Indian Parliament eye opning statement by Sikh women


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 9, 2009)

Black List: - Govt of India hold all right not to allow any person who is involved in subversive activities against the country.

Wrong logic: "Sikhs" won over the American policy for nuclear agreement - i doubt 

Ambassadors not visiting functions: - Functions generally have Khalistani overtones, it would be faux pas for the officials 

Press Releases-Consulate General of India, New York, U.S.A. - indiacgny.org - www.indiacgny.org

No Gurudwara in middle east: There is no Hindu temple either. That is the local law and that is it. 

Illegal immigrants in Italy and Spain: wrong qn maybe at this time, but those guys are given option of deportation or contacting the indian embassy, which they refuse. Hence they are deported back to the last identified port of departure or remain in a limbo

I agree a stricter implementation of Immigration act  1983 must be done to crack down on the agents.

Govt celebrating functions in all countries - shouldn't SGPC be doing this? Ofcourse MEA can always facilitate but budget outlay and leadership must come from SGPC.

He is making some valid points but has expectations from govt are way off the mark.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 9, 2009)

Question to Mods:

How is this thread linked to Interfaith dialog?
:crazy:


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> Question to Mods:
> 
> How is this thread linked to Interfaith dialog?
> :crazy:



Actually it was originally posted in the wrong spot -- and I know why. I was too busy with details when I logged into SPN last night and forgot to relocate it for Gyani ji. Thanks for the reminder. Narayanjot Kaur.


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## Sinister (Aug 9, 2009)

harbansj24 said:


> As I see there are 2 issues and lets not get mixed up on both:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
a wonderful level headed argument that no one can really disagree with. 

you can only dispute the data if:
a) you've conducted your own census with your own controls
b) you've got reasonable proof that shows how certain variables may have skewed the data.
c) you've got direct proof that the data was blantantly altered or fabricated before being published.

so my question to Dr. Harsharshinder Kaur is this...do you have any of a, b, or c?

would it not benefit her and her cause if she came at it with this angle of attack rather than the one that simply lays claim to ethnic/religious discrimination?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

1. as a individual..we dont have all the resources at our disposal.
2.The Direct and immediate action taken to first Transfer Dr to a place 80 KM away and then SACK her without an enquiry smacks of.....and is very suspicipious and lends credence to her "allegations"...JUSTICE has to be SEEN being DONE...and the onus is on the authorities that have all the resources. PROOF of the falsity of her allaegations shoudl coem form the GOI...PROVE her "GUILTY" instead of asking her to prove her "INNOCENCE.":advocate:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 9, 2009)

by taking action against her GOI has shared that fact that she is guilty.

You may use the RTI act to get information on her transfer.


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

Was Dr. Harshinder Kaur ji a civil service employee or a political appointment? When thinking about her being "guilty" I am wondering "guilty of what?"

It is not a superficial question. Rather if there is evidence of x, y and z and one can show that it violates the conditions of employment for a civil service employee then there would have to be a mechanism for due process - hearings and appeals and arbitration, followed perhaps by court action. If she was a political appointee, and served at will, then she can be fired at any time. Whether she is "guilty" of anything is not an issue. The perception that she has not supported the policies of her benefactors is enough.

There 2 outstanding examples in the US where "doctors" or Surgeons General who, as presidential appointments and approved by the Congress, maintained their right to speak independently on public health issues because they were doctors. When they espoused views opposite to presidential policies and the politics of the ruling party, they were sacked. Jocelyn Elders and C. Everett Koop.

Likewise, scientists (consultants and also political appointees) in the employ of various science administrations of the federal government known to have views that differed from those of the Bush administration  were eased out, sacked, persuaded to seek other opportunities, or did not have contracts renewed. 

Whatever data is eventually produced in this thread needs to be convincing, because governments always operate at two levels at minimum. There is data, and then there is the way that the data is interpreted. And then there is a third level: the level of data that never sees the light of day. Let's not be hard on India. Let's keep exploring this issue hoping to discover whether Dr. Kaur was a burnt offering or whether she "misunderstood" her role and has suffered the consequences for taking an independent point of view.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2009)

Dr. Harshinder was a Government employee

Doctors in indian govt hospitals are not political appointments but are a part of org which i might put similar to Federal Services in US.

and i don't think she has been sacked. She would have been suspended pending action against her.


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

Huck Finn ji

Thank you for your reply. So my next question would be this. As a member of federal services was Dr. Harshinder a member of civil service? Or was she on a list of individuals who are slated for federal positions by the party/parties that control parliament either alone or by coalition?  Is there the expectation that doctors in federal service retain their professional independence and some margin to speak independently, or are they expected to uphold the political platform of the government in power?
Do doctors in federal service continue to hold their positions in federal services even when the political party ruling when they were hired later falls out of power? 

I am trying to get at what level of real professional independence Dr. Harshinder Kaur had in her role and whether realistically she knew what it was and then used it. (to the chagrin of her superiors)


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 10, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> Dr. Harshinder was a Government employee
> 
> Doctors in indian govt hospitals are not political appointments but are a part of org which i might put similar to Federal Services in US.
> 
> and i don't think she has been sacked. She would have been suspended pending action against her.



Huck Ji..

The Past tense in your opening sentence..and the logic in the last sentence self conflict.
Please clarify.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2009)

<<Huck Ji..

The Past tense in your opening sentence..and the logic in the last sentence self conflict.
Please clarify.>>

lol

once suspended, you are a non performing employee- no perks, just basic salary till you clear the investigation

thanks for the catch


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2009)

<<hank you for your reply. So my next question would be this. As a member of federal services was Dr. Harshinder a member of civil service? Or was she on a list of individuals who are slated for federal positions by the party/parties that control parliament either alone or by coalition? Is there the expectation that doctors in federal service retain their professional independence and some margin to speak independently, or are they expected to uphold the political platform of the government in power?
Do doctors in federal service continue to hold their positions in federal services even when the political party ruling when they were hired later falls out of power? 


I am trying to get at what level of real professional independence Dr. Harshinder Kaur had in her role and whether realistically she knew what it was and then used it. (to the chagrin of her superiors)>>

i might not be 100% accurate how medical postings work but here it is:

She is (was) employee of "Government of Punjab" and not GOI

And if i am not wrong she was a consulting doctor. Such doctors are hired for specialized wings. They are allowed to do private practice as well.

Doctors in government service are a part of a cadre similar to civil services. They are not appointed by a political party and are selected by a test based selection process.

Those cadre are regularly supplemented by specialists from certain areas and they are contractual employees

We might have to investigate the role She was playing

If she was a contractual employee- her appointment would have been done by the State Medical Officer.
She would not have been suspended but her contract terminated.

I still don't understand why GOI is being blamed, it's all between the CMO of the state, State Govt, State medical board and her.


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

Huck Finn ji

Thanks for all the information. It helps me put together some of the information more effectively. The next round of questions i would have would probably pertain to the Medical Office policies in Punjab itself. But I have some thinking to do.


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> So Now the Cat is OUT of the Bag....PUNJAB..and SIKHS are selectively at the receiving end of a vicious propoganda campaign...the netire thing baout Female foeticide..Punjab being the state with highest female-male imbalance..SIKHS beign biggest Kurree Maars in the world...are all a selective persecution and propoganda campaign to MALIGN.
> Here is the Complete Interview with Dr Harshinder Kaur...from the Rozana Spokesman Online............. Mirror Website
> 
> mirrorfullpage
> ...


 
Ok. Because of some free time I actually started pulling up some Data, anything I could find on this subject. According to the stats Punjab is one of the states with the lowest woman to man ratio (about 798 females for 1000 male). Haryana, then followed by the union of Dehli and also Gujurat take 2, 3, 4 respectively. And the current Sikh prime minister scolded them equally.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ujarat-delhi-for-poor-sex-ratio_10042753.html

The data itself meets a consistency standard...because Punjab, Haryana and Delhi are more less similiar from language/culture perspective. If punjab was a .798 and haryana or delhi at say something completely off the chart like .999 then i would raise my eyebrows. 

The latest census I could find was the 2001 census published as a document. “2001 Census as Social Document”

Pages 163- 164 onwards:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=h8BgGIFrd9MC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=Inderjit+Singh%2Bcensus%2Bpunjab&source=bl&ots=TOcolDp3Zh&sig=CzDlCYFHTIDEkElerO73zqT6D-g&hl=en&ei=RYuASoGqKYG4Nd7_ueoC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=Inderjit%20Singh%2Bcensus%2Bpunjab&f=false

The statistics from Punjab were given to A. Kumar by the Director of Census Operations of Punjab, Mr. Inderjit Singh…made public in a press conference on March 30th 2001.

SO FAR. I have NOT read in any document or in any Decennial Indian Census conducted by the GOI that reveals or states that Punjab is the leading state in Female foeticide and infanticide. Which leads to conclusion that “the assumption is made from simply viewing the abnormal sex ratio’s” by individuals.

So, what are ALL the variables that can be responsible for the growing discrepancy in the sex ratio?

These are what I could think of:

Influx of male labor (for agriculture)

Female Infanticide/Foeticide

Growth in Disease that targets Woman

Discrimination against Woman…Dietary discrimination…causing shorter life expectancy 

Male vs Female homicide rates

Male vs Female Suicide Rates

Male vs Female emigration…Foreign Born ethnically Punjabi males traveling home for marriage more so than Foreign Born ethnically Punjabi Females. 


I did come over this canvassing study conducted by Dr. Ajinder Walia, titled Female Foeticide in Punjab: exploring the socio-economic and cultural dimensions.

And her findings are rather disturbing and I highly doubt they have been initiated as some sort of anti-Sikh propaganda (she is sikh herself):


http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=37

Who is Dr. Ajinder Walia?: is Senior Research Officer at the National Institute of Disaster Management in India. She has a doctorate in Sociology and is actively working in the area of gender issues in Disaster Management. Her other areas of interest are Community Based Disaster Preparedness and Disaster Mental Health. She has a number of research publications to her credit in the area of declining sex ratio, female infanticide and foeticide and gender disparities.

Contact: ajinder@ndim.net

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://nidm.gov.in/images/2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://nidm.gov.in/ajindir.asp&usg=__ta0dzEhvp_VTqaLbbChZ44tTgOI=&h=150&w=98&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=NmL2nBMK-E4quM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=63&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dajinder%2Bwalia%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

so in what way is the GOI involved in spreading what? And what is the myth? secondly no religious affiliation is mentioned in any census report...nor does any report try to correlate religious affiliation with sex ratio's. 

sorry ... i dont see motive...the conspiracy does not have legs.

:advocate:


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2009)

The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI census.

What I am about to show you is something really cool…
What about the East India company?…surely there was no plot back in 1871 to paint the Sikhs as leaders of female infanticide.

http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/page.php?title=1881v2&action=next&record=537

main site:
http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/census.htm

turns out that in 1871 census shows a significant sex ratio discrepancy as well!

There were 10,210,053 males to 8,640,384 females in Punjab…a ratio of 0.8462
This is lower ratio than most other states under British Raj

Again more statistical consistency with that of the GOI census...things starting to look bleaker.

Lets stop denying the SEVERITY of the problem…it would be the first step in trying to fix it.


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## Admin (Aug 10, 2009)

There is no one denying the problem, even a single instance of this nature is a black spot... the problem is portraying the wrong canvas... it may be worse than the most states but still not the worst.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 10, 2009)

Dear Sinister ji (Now that is an interesting concept, eh?)



> The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI census.



I shall shorten that by one word.

The problem seems to be a lack of trust in the GOI .

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> There is no one denying the problem, even a single instance of this nature is a black spot... the problem is portraying the wrong canvas... it may be worse than the most states but still not the worst.


 
why cant it be the lowest? its just a sex ratio stat.

reason 

data 

proof

you have mine

undermining the statistic with a conspiracy theory is nothing short of lame attempt at throwing ambiguity at what would appear to be some sembelance of the truth. Not to mention mocking and degrading the hardwork of the people who have conducted the studies...many of whom are sikh.

i just did the math...even in 1871 punjab had the lowest sex ratio (female:male).


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2009)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Dear Sinister ji (Now that is an interesting concept, eh?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
mai ji ... fully understandable sentiment

oh and dont worry about the name...im a nice guy :}8-:

cheers


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 10, 2009)

Sinister ji,




> oh and dont worry about the name...im a nice guy



Not a bit!  One meaning of sinister if left as in left-handed which the nicest guy in the world was.

And what's in  a name?  I have been a very old lady from the day of my birth!

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai (not really all THAT old)


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## spnadmin (Aug 11, 2009)

Sinister ji

You have done a good job of pulling together some data. Last night I spent about an hour surfing and looking for information to contribute to your effort. There is some but it is not broken down by state. There is one excellent article - a controlled research study -- however only southern Indian states were included in the analysis.

This is an interesting pattern. I don't know if I am right. Southern and central Indian states appear to be more represented in government sponsored projects related to foeticide, maternal death, and maternal reproductive health,  and the studies that are connected to them, than northern states. Why?  Are there political, demographic, cultural reasons -- or am I seeing things in the rsearch that are not there?


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## harbansj24 (Aug 11, 2009)

Narayanjot ji,

A generous view would be that the northern states are basically agrarian states and they find it difficult to put together a team for such detailed academic studies. But the truth is that in the last 40 years or so, South has quietly galloped ahead in all aspects be it cultural, academic, technological and even sports. There are several reasons  mostly cultural and attitudinal which may not be palatable to us. 

But slowly things are changing for the better.


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## spnadmin (Aug 11, 2009)

harbhansj24 ji

Now you are raising another issue -- that has made me wonder since this thread began.

There may not be sufficient data regarding issues of foeticide and maternal reproductive health in the northern states, including Punjab, to be able to tell whether the claims about Punjab and Sikhs are True OR False. And you point to this issue albeit a suggestion. A cultural dilemma: to move forward with GOI initiatives and in the process loose cultural identity VERSUS retain cultural identity and forgo the potential benefits of GOI initiatives. You said it better than I: There are several reasons  mostly cultural and attitudinal which may not be palatable to us.

India the democratic republic, world's fastest growing economy, bright financial, commercial and technological future of south Asia is only 50 years old. This is change at warp speed! Standing on the sidelines I sometimes want to plead to Indians and non-Indians alike- please give India the space to make some mistakes! India has made more progress than many western democracies in 1/4 of the time it took to do it.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 11, 2009)

Dear all,

Let us not forget what this is really all about.

If a million little girls are murdered - before or after birth - or a lakh or any large number, this will cause social upheaval.  OMG

Morally, however, it is no different than if 100 or 10 or even one little girl is killed because she is unwanted;  this is a hate crime and it must be stopped!:}--}:

Of course, as a Sikh, I would be happy if it turned out that the statistics showing that we are the major killers of daughters are false.  I would still ache, though, for every little Sikh girl denied life because of her gender.

(I don't mean to imply that nonSikh little girls are any less valuable;  it's just that I'm writing about Sikhs here.)

Is chardi kala appropriate here?  Of course, chardi kala is always appropriate for a Sikh, but no ice cream this time.

Mai


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 11, 2009)

<<A cultural dilemma: to move forward with GOI initiatives and in the process loose cultural identity VERSUS retain cultural identity and forgo the potential benefits of GOI initiatives.>>

narayanjot ji

i am not clear what you meant by losing cultural identity.

i have lived in almost all places of india and i did not find any place which is growing fast losing it's cultural identity due to growth.


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## spnadmin (Aug 11, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> <<A cultural dilemma: to move forward with GOI initiatives and in the process loose cultural identity VERSUS retain cultural identity and forgo the potential benefits of GOI initiatives.>>
> 
> narayanjot ji
> 
> ...



Huck Finn ji

You are really speaking to two different issues. One issue that you speak to is the dilemma of loosing cultural identity versus moving forward. A dilemma is always a perceived state, a perceived problem, and therefore the reality of a dilemma is psychological rather than empirical. The other issue you are speaking to is whether there is any actual or empirical loss of identity due to growth. These are two different things.

For the sake of argument let me stipulate that "the potential benefits of GOI initiatives" in fact pose no dilemma. That there is no empirical evidence that a group will sacrifice some or all of its cultural identity if it moves with the GOI initiatives.  This may not be true, but let's for now assume that it is true. No dilemma in fact. That does not mean that one or another group with a clearly defined sense of cultural identity will not feel psychologically threatened and resist change or resist the "potential benefits of GOI initiatives. 

So there we are left with more questions:

1. Is the perceived or psychological threat of a loss of cultural identity "real" or is it merely a subjective truth. 

2. Are there any case studies or sociological studies of various cultural groups that can help us answer question 1 above.

3. Are there actual situations where groups who define themselves religiously, linguistically, historically express fear of loosing their cultural integrity and therefore resist change?

4. Can question 3 be answered using data/evidence from survey research, anthropological investigations?

There may be more questions.  Those are the ones that occur to me now. In the social sciences one reads of two kinds of logic: the logic of science and the logic of meaning. One is investigated with data (seen the posts of Sinister ji) and the other is investigated through the study of the beliefs and expressed experiences of a people. Both should be taken seriously. One is not more valid than the other. In my view, to ignore the inferences that come from either the logic of science or the logic of meaning is to invite consequences that can be extremely unpleasant.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 12, 2009)

narayanjot ji

we are both on the same page wrt the analysis approach. However, the logic of meaning, as you put it, also needs a data set to define it.

Most of the sociological research i have come across is based on large sample sets with data being gathered not only through objective questions but also through open ended discussions.

What we generally come across as the "vocal" resistance might actually be a fringe minority voice. This cannot be discerned by subjective analysis, but only through a data based and factual approach.

It's a quite famous saying i heard in college - In God we Trust, rest all back up with Data.

secondly - could you elaborate on the GOI initiatives we are talking about?

----------

on a side note:

if we are discussing sociological impact of government programs, i have seen impact in the tribal areas. The lifestyle of those people has been changed for good and bad due to the change. A few have benefited but  a majority have fared badly.
I put that to  poor planning and short sighted policies. A lot of work is required in those geographies.

It is similar in Africa and other developing nations.

--------

i see two major forces changing India.

Information - easy access to information through various media like tele, phones, internet and newspapers is leading to what many term as "ignition" of a billion minds. Information is a great leveler and this explosion is fast changing the face of urban and rural india. 

Globalization - India might not be as hot as China for FDI but certainly it is spreading its influence in much bigger way. Access to global markets and global aspirations are driving today's youth.

There are pitfalls - inequity of benefits being reaped, poor infrastructure, poor administration

but it is easy to critique from outside. It is still a Work in progress and I can see only a bright future in next 20 years.


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## harbansj24 (Aug 12, 2009)

Yes Narayanjot ji, I fully agree with your well expressed views.

Now if we can deviate from the original thread, then I would like to augment or supplement what you and Huck Finn ji have said.

The comments have been made with respect to South Indians. Having observed them closely and also north Indians particularly Punjabis and Sikhs, I can say that the South Indians as a whole have:


Moved ahead without losing their cultural identity. In fact their temples got better. Their Bharatnatyam and Carnatic music have got worldwide recognition and appreciation.
Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai are now recognized internationally as IT centers of excellence.
Just by simple observation, the above 3 cities along with Coimbatore, Madurai, Vishakapatnam, Cochin, Mysore and Tuticorin are are far ahead than any other North Indian city with the obvious exception of the National Capital Region of Delhi. This was not the case just a few decades back and North Indians particularly the Punjabis took pleasure in contemptuosly calling them "Illuds" derived from the negative term "Illey" used by them.
Their Sportspersons now compete easily and even better Punjabis and Sikhs. This was unimaginable just 15 years back.
So how did they pull themselves up to this stage. I daresay that either conciously or sub conciously they have followed the simple principles taught by our Gurus far better than we have, such as:


Practice humility.
Know when to let go.
Fight with QUIET tenacity for your beliefs and principles.
 There is much that we can learn from them especially Tamils and Malayalis. :hmm::}{}{}::whisling:


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## spnadmin (Aug 12, 2009)

harbhansj24 ji

These are wisdom pills,



Practice humility.
Know when to let go.
Fight with QUIET tenacity for your beliefs and principles.
 
And I agree having been reading some Tamil language web sites recently than there is a lot to be learned from their approach.  A lot. 
There is much that we can learn from them especially Tamils and Malayalis.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 12, 2009)

narayanjot ji

i have been exposed to the cultureal melange that is india for last many years. I truly have picked up these pearls and diamonds even from many places.

but hey, pearls are not for public display, especially with unsavory characters


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## spnadmin (Aug 12, 2009)

Sorry huck ji 

I meant to address my comments to harbhansj24 ji -- My mistake. :down:


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Sinister ji
> 
> You have done a good job of pulling together some data. Last night I spent about an hour surfing and looking for information to contribute to your effort. There is some but it is not broken down by state. There is one excellent article - a controlled research study -- however only southern Indian states were included in the analysis.
> 
> This is an interesting pattern. I don't know if I am right. Southern and central Indian states appear to be more represented in government sponsored projects related to foeticide, maternal death, and maternal reproductive health, and the studies that are connected to them, than northern states. Why? Are there political, demographic, cultural reasons -- or am I seeing things in the rsearch that are not there?


 

N. Kaur Ji,

I dont know if such a discrepency or pattern exists , cause i didnt see any while i was looking up stats...in fact i felt that punjab seems to over-represented in the statistics category (but that is just a feeling...because i was searching particularly for punjab information). could you provide proof or further explanation?
did you see more federal government sponsored initiatives on female infanticide prevention in India's lower states? (its hard to go on gut feelings?)

When i was surfing for the info I only noticed one thing....there is NOT enough data...in fact i would like to criticize the Indian government and indians in general for not having enough stats on such important issues. 

If such a discrepency does exist then i think HarbansJ has answered relatively well. 
I think it would be mostly because of political reasons. OR Like harbansji said major academia (or as ruskies call it; 'intelligentsia') of India has moved to the south...and academia brings with it more activism. (i think) 


Aside: female infanticide rates seem to be largely uneffected by education Levels...WEIRD!

Fetal sex determination in infants in Punjab, India: correlations and implications -- Booth et al. 309 (6964): 1259 -- BMJ

conclusion: Fetal sex determination was common, especially if the family already had daughters. Sex determination seems to be driven by a desire to have sons, with socioeconomic status and education having little effect. The lower prevalence of fetal sex determinations for girls is likely to be due to abortion of fetuses found to be female.


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2009)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Sinister ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Mai ji

Your RIGHT! Sinister in latin means left. Rectus means right. 

Did you know that if you were to take every naturally occurring active enzyme (built from chiral amino acids) in your body and pass an incident ray of plane polarized light across them…the ray would pivot to the left! (Levorotatory)

FUN FACTS! 

Who was the nicest man on the planet? If ya don’t mind my nosiness or curiosity?

keep it awesome
sinister


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## kds1980 (Aug 12, 2009)

harbansj24 said:


> Yes Narayanjot ji, I fully agree with your well expressed views.
> 
> Now if we can deviate from the original thread, then I would like to augment or supplement what you and Huck Finn ji have said.
> 
> ...



Harbans ji 

You are right we have to learn good things from south india,But we have to understand  the cultural difference  between Punjabi's and south Indians.South Indians always had the culture of education that's why we had and still have brilliant scientists from south while punjabi sikhs are known for fond of farming,truck driving ,auto part shops restaurents,army etc these things require more of skills than education.It was obvious when IT industry arrived in India their obvious choice was going to be south because of avalability of large number of educated youths which are going to work at cheap salary.

I also want to point out that Andhra pradesh has the highest number of suicide rate among farmers and chief archietect of IT industry of hyderabad 
chandra babu naidu lost election so badly that his political career is in danger now.SM krishna of karnataka met the same fate and lost the power
so just because their is IT industry in south it does not meet it is prospering.

2)Another point I want to mention is that Southern parties from past 13 years have bargained a lot from centre showing numerical power.Key portofolio's of IT ministry and textile is with DMK and these days ministers openly claim that they are benefitting their state so growth in sectors where south Indian ministers are appointed is obvious

3)on the point of sports persons I am surprised because I have yet to see 
south Indian sportsmen on international level.India is obsessed with cricket
and we hardly have any good p-layer from south now.Infact In 90s karnataka players dominated indian cricket team but not now.similarly there was not even a single south Indian in olympic medal winners of India


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 12, 2009)

Hi, Sinister:



> Who was the nicest man on the planet? If ya don’t mind my nosiness or curiosity?



Actually, they are a triad:



My Dad
My first husband, Mani
Our son, Sandeep
All gone on to bigger and better things, fortunately for them, sadly for me.

My seven brothers all considered Daddy a terror;  he was always nice to me and totally charming to my friends - girls, of course - while I was growing up.  They all adored him, no small accomplishment for a man who was 67 when I was born.

Chardi Kala,

Mai, SICL  :ice:


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## harbansj24 (Aug 13, 2009)

Kanwardeep ji,

I am quite surprised when you say that South does not have good Cricketers! you have the famous "wall" in Rahul Dravid. then you have Anil Kumble who very  recently retired from test cricket only and still performing creditably in the 20 - 20 format in IPL and has 600 odd wickets and is the 3rd highest wicket taker of all time just behind Muthaiah Murlitharan of Sri Lanka and Shane Warne of Australia. Then you have VVS Laxman, Sreeshanth, Balaji. There are more but i am not able to recollect their names.

Hockey which was the preseve of Punjab, has now many players from Kerala, Dhanraj Pillai being foremost of them who was unfortunately done in by the machinisations of KPS Gill.

As far as olympic medals are concerned, it is only now that we have had a Gold Medalist in individual event that too only in clay pigieon shooting to Bindra. The other 2 medals 2 bronze in boxing and wrestling.

The largest number of Athletes in the 2008 olympic contingent were from South that is 10, 3 were from Punjab (All Kaurs!) and 3 from elsewhere. For game events such as Tennis, badminton, TT large majority were from south. Only in shooting wrestling and boxing all were from North mostly from Punjab and Haryana. This was unthinkable a few yewrs ago. Athleters used to be exclusively from North especially from Punjab.

As far as farmers suicides are concerned this has been an all India phenomena with the highest being from Vidharba in Maharashtra. Punjab too had quite a few.

ITminister from DMK has only been a recent Phenomena. Earlier in BJP time Pramod Mahajan looked after IT. But, Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai had established themselves much earlier and no thanks to Politicians of any hue.

Even if you take infrastructure such as roads in the interior of the states, Tamilnadu has the best and backed up with excellent network of bus services. Haryana which was leading a few years back has fallen behind and Punjab is nowhere.

Even in the fields of Truck transport, Punjab had a near national monoply. Where ever you were in India yuo would find Sikh symbols on the trucks. No longer now. Now even in Delhi and Haryana you find isolated trucks with such symbols. Same is the case with Highway dhabas and Auto spare parts shops.In Army also the number has drastically comedown but that is due to GOI policy of proportional recruitment from all states, so that no particular state is able to monopolise armed might in itself. 

Yes they still produce 50% of grain output of the country but as an earlier thread showed this is at tremendous cost such as ruining the groundwater and fertility of soil.

Most of the wealth on  boorish display in Punjab is either from agriculture or from money sent home by NRIs.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 13, 2009)

PUNJAB is the best example of the Aesop Fairy Tale...Hare and Toroise Race !!
Punjab is the Hare..and the rest of India are the Tortoises...In the early 40's PUNJAB raced ahead and went to SLEEP !! ( its a different matter that the "sleep" is not natural..its a COMA induced by vested anti-Punjab interests/lobby in Delhi).
NOW its a self fulfilling prophesy of DOOM...Punjab is awash in Illegal booze..drugs..loose women...bad corrupted politicians, police, civil service.land mafia, gangs, extra judicial killings, murders, goonda babas, maharajs, gurus,,,..you name it punjab has it..:}--}::}--}::}--}::down::down:


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## spnadmin (Aug 13, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> narayanjot ji
> 
> we are both on the same page wrt the analysis approach. However, the logic of meaning, as you put it, also needs a data set to define it.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the delay,

Whenever I think I have time to go back and follow up another event occurs that stymies me. Anyway - there are two articles I am still looking for. However, you will find these family health studies very interesting. They are looking at reproductive health broadly and not at abortion alone.

Here is the link. Each state in India is listed, as a  hyperlink. If you click on the link you get a zip file and inside the zip file is a detailed report on reporductive health for that state. All results based on a biennial survey that has been ongoing since I believe 1991. Could be wrong. The methodology is covered in the navigation panel to the left.

Clikc on the state links to get the data
National Family Health Survey


It may take more time for me to find two other articles on GOI initiatives. They are hiding.


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## spnadmin (Aug 14, 2009)

Here is one of the studies that I read - now looking for one more that gives a state by state breakdown on GOI initiatives:

Maternal and Social Factors Associated with Abortion in India: A Population-Based Study


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## kds1980 (Aug 14, 2009)

> Kanwardeep ji,
> 
> I am quite surprised when you say that South does not have good Cricketers! you have the famous "wall" in Rahul Dravid. then you have Anil Kumble who very recently retired from test cricket only and still performing creditably in the 20 - 20 format in IPL and has 600 odd wickets and is the 3rd highest wicket taker of all time just behind Muthaiah Murlitharan of Sri Lanka and Shane Warne of Australia. Then you have VVS Laxman, Sreeshanth, Balaji. There are more but i am not able to recollect their names.
> 
> Hockey which was the preseve of Punjab, has now many players from Kerala, Dhanraj Pillai being foremost of them who was unfortunately done in by the machinisations of KPS Gill.



Harbans ji

Please re read my post I have said that  karnataka players dominated cricket in 90s.but at present there is not even a single Good south Indian player in indian team.Both balaji
and sreesanth are not at all considered world class cricketers and are suffering from career threatening injuiries

On hockey i agree that domination of sikhs is now not much but again we all know that hockey is not so popular now and hardly you will find youths which are interested in hockey because it is not going to give them enough money



> ITminister from DMK has only been a recent Phenomena. Earlier in BJP time Pramod Mahajan looked after IT. But, Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai had established themselves much earlier and no thanks to Politicians of any hue.



Well both TDP and DMK were in position to bargain a lot from centre from 98.southern parties care too much about their regions and how much they bargained only god knows.
on IT industry as I mentioned earlier that large number of educated youths favoured south over north.Thjere was no reason for IT industry to pick punjab or any northern state over south.And yes Cms like chandrababu naidu played a key role in Development of Hyderabad as cybercity and he lost 2004 elections very badly so IT industry cannot be considered as barometer of development O/W IT centric chief ministers should never lost power.



> Even in the fields of Truck transport, Punjab had a near national monoply. Where ever you were in India yuo would find Sikh symbols on the trucks. No longer now. Now even in Delhi and Haryana you find isolated trucks with such symbols. Same is the case with Highway dhabas and Auto spare parts shops.In Army also the number has drastically comedown but that is due to GOI policy of proportional recruitment from all states, so that no particular state is able to monopolise armed might in itself.



well for this we should blame present generation of sikh youths and and to some extent
sikh society.Just tell me what respect does a small transport owner or auto part shop owner do receive.How many sikh parents will marry their daughter to these type of youths and how many educated working sikh girls will marry them.These days craze has been shifted to working in MNC companies or going abroad


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 17, 2009)

narayanjot ji

please read this

http://cghr.org/India_EOP.pdf

check out the table 2:

This is an eye opener


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## spnadmin (Aug 17, 2009)

Huck Finn ji

I will check it out. But more than that - Thanks for taking the time to check the link. Sometimes the info of the kind posted there is very dry and people skip it.

I have a couple more things to post on the subject. But am separated from my bookmarks at this time.

Will also respond to your earlier question about the logic of meaning -- but have had technical problems for two days. Please forgive me.


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