# Naam And Name



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 30, 2009)

One of my Gurbani students made the following observation on Naam in Gurbani. Name is usually a Proper Noun....and given to us by our Parents/authority figure/etc. Since God doesnt have any parents/authority over Him...He has NO PROPER NOUN as a "Name" as we all do. All the "Names" of God...are Descriptive/adjectives/...attributes of Him...and given by his followers..

As such some call Him Raam..the All Permeating Lord....Rahim..the Giver...the Sustainer..The Beneficient..the Kind One..etc etc
These are called KIRTAM Names in Punajbi lingo.

In the light of this observation....my student observed that in Sukhmani ashtpadee 3..TERO NAO....Nirdhan ko tero Nao....usually translated as..To the POOR..wealth is YOUR NAME...to the shelterless..shelter is YOUR NAME...etc etc doesnt make sense.

The "NAME" as in the case of the POOR would be Someone who gives them WEALTH....a human donor.... Philanthropist.... like Bill Gates who follows GOD in his heart and wishes to donate his GOD given wealth among the POOR. This ACTION of Bill gates woudl be acting out God's* KIRTAM NAME* as THE BENEFICIENT..the GIVER..the SUSTAINER....

Similarly whoever builds HOMES for the HOMELESS is follwiing Gods NAME as the Sustainer..builder..giver etc...

SO NIrdhan KO DHan tero Naao means to a Poor man to be Given wealth is like "acting out" One of your Names....

NAAM should be WEALTH to ALL....why single out the POOR ONLY ??  Can the POOR survive ONLY on "Naam" ?? Dont the wealthy need such "Naam" ?? So to say ONLy the Nirdhan take your "Naam" as wealth is patronising translation...why wouldnt the welathy take it as "wealth" too ?? Since Gurbani is always correct..the transaltions interpretations must be faulty..

Comments from spn readers please...


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## spnadmin (Jan 31, 2009)

Gyani ji

This got me thinking ... that perhaps it would be a good project to go systematically through many examples in Gurbani and examine the patterns that you and your student have pointed out. The thesis goes along well with the idea that Akaal is not an entity either -- someone who is measured in space and time. So Akaal can be understood as action and process and the use of Naam should make sense in that contact...This would be a good exercise I think ... to see how the translators could have made different decisions and perhaps chosen expressions closer to the active and fluid nature of God. Something to think about. Your student has raised a very interesting point.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 31, 2009)

The moment we name the infinite, it ceases being The Infinite but becomes finite. To know Ik Ong kaar, the Infinite, is to measure one's actions and deeds when no one is looking. These are the building blocks that Gurbani teaches us to build our character on.

Ik Ong Kaar is an experience: "Gungei di Mittheaaiee - No words can describe Ik Ong Kaar.

Guru Granth says: "Merei Laal jeeoh, tera anth nah janah/ Tun jul, thul maheehal, bhurh bhur leena, tun aapei sarab samanah." - My beloved, you are Infinite, you are in organic and in inorganic form and you create yourself. 

In other words, Ik Ong Kaar is Creative Energy - Ajuni Saibhang. So what name shall we give THE ONE that encompasses all that and beyond?

And what I understand by NAAM is that it is the Tool Box which help us build the bridge from Me-ism to One-ism as mentioned before, which is called character .

Tejwant Singh

PS: Gyani ji, Only a great teacher like you can instill this great inquistiveness in your students.


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## spnadmin (Jan 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr ji

Very profound words! "The moment we name the infinite, it ceases being The Infinite but becomes finite. To know Ik Ong kaar, the Infinite, is to measure one's actions and deeds when no one is looking. These are the building blocks that Gurbani teaches us to build our character."

That may be why Guru Nanak said in Artee You have a 1000 eyes and you have no eyes; 1000 feet and no feet.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 31, 2009)

> That may be why Guru Nanak said in Artee You have a 1000 eyes and you have no eyes; 1000 feet and no feet


 

Antonia ji,

Well said. Thanks to Guru Nanak, the true visionary and we are blessed to have him in our lives. Thanks to all our Gurus, who paved the way for us and etched the map on our souls so we know whom to ask the directions in case we get lost which we often do as a part of our human nature.

Tejwant Singh


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## Adsmangat (Jan 31, 2009)

Gur fateh ,
I respect Giani Arshi Ji from the core of my heart . My concept about "Naam" as sikh ideology may differ to some extent . Naam leads us to a path of eternal truth and not the Ram , raheem or govinda . Nam shortens our way to salvation which is eternal bliss and in the ambience warmth of Almighty . "kar kirpa jis apney naam laavey , nanak chauthey pad mein soa jan gat pavey" (Gaudi Sukhmani P284) . We have to recognise that Namm which is " chauhn dis hukam vartai prabh tera chauhn dis naam pataalang ! sabh main sabad vartai prabh saacha karam milai bealang" (Malhar -1 P1275) . Since we cannot search that " Chauhn dis naam" therefore we naam japp to find and feel that "Chauhn dis naam" . When we acheive this stage then gurbani says 
"Ditha sabh sansaar sukh na naam bin ! tann mann hosi chaar jaanai koi jan " (gaudi M:5 322) and " Chandan Chand na sard rut muul na mitaee ghaam ! seetal theevai naanka japnad-doa harnaam"
adsmangat


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## shearwater (Jan 31, 2009)

Good post!  God is known by his attributes.  Christians have similar names for God.

El - the Mighty One
Elohim - God of Israel
El Shaddai -  God all sufficient
Adonai - Master or Lord
Jehovah - the Self Existent One
Jehova Jireh - the Lord will Provide
Jehovah Rophe - the Lord Who Heals
Jehovah Nissi - the Lord our Banner
and many, many more.


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## spnadmin (Jan 31, 2009)

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
aasaa mehalaa 5 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
 

ਆਪੇ ਪੇਡੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਸਾਖ ॥ 
aapae paedd bisathhaaree saakh ||
He Himself is the tree, and the branches extending out.
 

ਅਪਨੀ ਖੇਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਰਾਖ ॥੧॥ 
apanee khaethee aapae raakh ||1||
He Himself preserves His own crop. ||1||
 

ਜਤ ਕਤ ਪੇਖਉ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥ 
jath kath paekho eaekai ouhee ||
Wherever I look, I see that One Lord alone.
 

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
ghatt ghatt anthar aapae soee ||1|| rehaao ||
Deep within each and every heart, He Himself is contained. ||1||Pause||
 

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ 
aapae soor kiran bisathhaar ||
He Himself is the sun, and the rays emanating from it.
 

ਸੋਈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਸੋਈ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
soee gupath soee aakaar ||2||
He is concealed, and He is revealed. ||2||
 

ਸਰਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਥਾਪੈ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
saragun niragun thhaapai naao ||
He is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes.
  

ਦੁਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੈ ਕੀਨੋ ਠਾਉ ॥੩॥ 
dhuh mil eaekai keeno thaao ||3||
Both converge onto His single point. ||3||
 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਖੋਇਆ ॥ 
kahu naanak gur bhram bho khoeiaa ||
Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt and fear.
 

ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਨੈਨ ਅਲੋਇਆ ॥੪॥੧੭॥੬੮॥ 
anadh roop sabh nain aloeiaa ||4||17||68||
With my eyes, I perceive the Lord, the embodiment of bliss, to be everywhere. ||4||17||68||


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## f1idea (Feb 1, 2009)

Dear Veerjio,

Naam word has different meaning when one is at different spiritual stage. 

Lets take the example of "Charan" and "meethey lage". How would you like the explanation to be ? at the very basic level Charan is Feet. At another level it is the Qualities (gunnas). At another level it could be the Bani itself - every word of SGGS. Likewise you can explore the possible meanings of Meethay.

Or "PrabhMohe Kab Gal Lavengay?" If Wahegure jee is not in Human form,(or some form) then how will be embrace me? Again the answer is based on Awastha of the person and the passion he has for his beloved.

Naam : To start with is forcefully uttering the word Waheguru. Next could be your chanting it automatically. Next would be forcing your body to chant Waheguru where your Mind simultaneously is working to feel the Gunnas of Waheguru. Next could be that you picked up one Gunna to imbibe in you. Then you conciously work on that. Then you Un-Conciously work on that. While you are imbibing these Gunnas, you will be noticiaby be behaving different than before. When people who notice the change and ask you, you will be shy to proclaim that "I did this" - rather you would like to tell them it is all because of Naam Simran or Gurus Kirpa or Gurus Baksish. 

Thus when you say Nirdhan ko dhan tera naam - try and fix the meanings beyond the literal. Nirdhan could be Money wise Poor, Health wise poor, Love wise poor, Spiritually poor and so on. For all these issues, Naam jupna will help tremendously.

I hope I have been able to convey how to do Veechar - go beyond the literal meaning

Bhool Chook Maf karna jee.

Regards and Gurfateh
Sodhi


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 1, 2009)

Dear tejwant Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

My decades of teaching and dealing with young minds taught me that inquisitiveness is a human trait naturally born in most if not all. I also found out that if we are like the yeast...the inquisitiveness rises and expands like the flour.... we just have to shape it and keep it rising in an orderly manner. Thats what i humbly put is Guru nanak jis WAY of teaching....He is the Supreme Teacher.

There are many schools and academies that teach Gurbani and Sikh history..etc..the exact same subjects as i teach. But these teachers insist on bringing in stories, fables. miracles etc....and use these as a crutch to teach Gurbani....to keep the interest they say. I say..GURBANI is intrinsically INTERESTING....Guru nanak ji is supreme even without we trying to show his divinity through so called "miracles" in His life. Unlike the Biblical religions."miracles" are NOT a sign of Prophethood/divinity etc in Sikhism..in Sikhi and Gurbani we have the Genuine Jewel and there is no need to pass around glass beads..even though later we produce the Jewels...Guru nanak ji Is GREAT..SGGS is GREAT simply Becasue He is Guru nanak and SGGs is SGGS...these DONT need any extra miracles etc to be proven. In the Bible the Prophet HAS to show miracles to prove hsi prophethood...in Gurmatt the Sikh Gurus REFUSED to hsow miracles and called it KEHR and ZEHR..but still some sikhs insist that our children "need" such proofs of DIVINITY...
Such teachings produce WEAKLINGS....( because some of the Tall tales going under RELIGOUS CLOTHING...sakhis etc..) are completley ILLOGICAL and shady...and OUR YOUNGSTERS KNOW IT deep in their hearts..BUT since the tall tale is being passed along by a Sant/baaba ji/mahapurash....or a Modern Professional Teacher of an Academy of Sikhism...they KEEP QUIET as they themsleves KNOW VERY LITTLE to tangle with such a person...BUT THEY KNOW its a lot of &&&&. Such types of weaklings go through life...deadly scared of Joons..Bhoots..Jamdoots..prets..chhaiyas..miraclous happenings..bad luck days and bad luck happenings....they put each foot down carefully..FOOK maar ke paer dharna...not wantign to Offend any bhoot/jamdoot etc..they go thru life thinking.Oh I broke my Amrit..because i swallowed a fly..killed a mosquito..oh PAAP ho gaya..Oh Punn kistran karran..Shall I take Amrit again ??//Do I really have to ?? Which baba ji shall I go to now ?? Oh will I now become a Cow in my next life... such INSECURE YOUTHS abound now adays....and that is why we have so many UN-SIKH like things happenings in Jathas, deras, SikhI Camps....Many go thru life just parrotting Gurbani as Mantars Jantars..so many paaths of thsi shabad and that shabad will get this and that...what i was in previous life..whats going to be my next life...
As they say..We CANNOT do anything about OUR PAST....But what we do in our PRESENT can either screw up our FUTURE....or make the Future.... the SECRET is in the PRESENT. Sadly most sikhs are deeply INTO THE PAST...lives..joons..incarnations..yugs...miracles....and NEGLECTING THE PRESENT !!! AND their "teachers" are the ones responsible...they keep on regurgitating the same old stories and tall tales and sakhis abourt KalYug the Raaksh.. meeting Guru nanak Ji..or satyug and dwappar yug....the man who became a Cow becasse he pointed  out a runaway cow to the Butcher..
They compeletly IGNORE Guru nanak ji Himself declaring in no uncertian terms that THERE are NO YUGS...dont blame the YUGS... since its the SAME SUN..the SAME MOON..the SAME EARTH...in Satyug..dwappar..kalyug.... and its the SAME PERSONS who keep on doing evil things....the COMMON DENOMINATOR is the "MAN"...an evil man will do EVIL no matter what the YUG...so instead of the YUGS..Concentrate on the MAN...as the GURUS DID.... for 250 Years the GURUS..worked on the MAN...not the YUG !! TODAY we must use the SGGS to work on the MAN....we certainly cannot change the YUG....yet we dont have the courage to say so....we CAN CHANGE THE MAN....!!! yet we want to talk about the YUGS...we still go on and on about Dhanna Ji and his stone...when Dhanna ji himslef never mentioned it at all.... so what ? the story is entertainment...whay throw it away...doesnt matter if a few sikhs then decide to visit the stone idols in Batu Caves to get what "Dhanna Ji" got ??
Gurbani is full of Metaphors...we are seriously DISSECTING the "metaphotrs" instead of USING THEM as Guru ji did....to TEACH....
This is the 21st Century.. information is going into overdrive...our youth are not stupid..they may keep their mouths shut in front of you....BUT deep inside they know what is what....its a crime to produce weaklings who convert at the drop of  a hat...because they are forced to admit..miracles ?? yes you MUST have FAITH..THATS EXACTLY what the others say.... so whats the difference ?? The Difference is that the SGGS is a Jewel..and the Glass Beads may look like jewels but they arent and one doesnt need "faith" to see the difference. :inca:

Lets show the JEWEL ONLY...and CREATE/DEVELOP...Professional JEWELLERS and Diamond Merchants..Parkhoos...not glass beads......snake oil peddlers !! The mould is in our hands..:happy:


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 1, 2009)

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Very well put. No one could have said it better. Allow me to be one more box car of this Gurmat train whose engine is Ik Ong Kaar and yourself as its conductor.


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## kulmahal (Feb 1, 2009)

Well said veer jee. Great topic. Kulwant from Michigan!


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## kanwal295 (Feb 1, 2009)

Guru Piare jio

This is a very important topic that has been started on 'Naam' and 'Name', while in Gurmukhi Naam does not pose much of a problem, in English this is almost always translated as 'Name'. Countless translations have inserted Name for Naam and therein lies the error of understanding.
God has many names (Kritam names as contained in Jaap sahib) and yet no name. The translators should have let "Naam" in Gurbani be referred to as Naam in translations as well. so everyone knows "NAAM" as an unchangeable word, just like people know "AUM" and now it has become a universal word.
In most parts of Gurbani, Naam denotes the Immortal Essence of Reality, the Immortal Primordial Omnipresent Power, the Divine Energy, the All Permeating Divine Spirit, The Immortal Holy Life Force, The Holy Spirit, the Omnipresence, The Power of the Presence of God, the operating energy (Kelaah) in the creation, the ever ascending power of God (Chardi Kelaah).
In only some places "Naam" indicates 'Name' eg "Naei laeeyai narak na jaei..." Asa di var.
"Naam japoh....." would actually mean 'Practice the Power of the Presence of God' rather than just chanting.

In humble service
Dr Kanwal Jit Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 1, 2009)

Dr Kanwaljit Singh Ji, Gurfateh Ji.

That is the REASON why the Sikhs should use and popularise the SIKH VOCABULARY ..as is basis....

Naam is Naam...
Kirpan is Kirpan...and not ceremonial dagger..small knife..short blade..etc etc
Gurbani is Gurbani....
Kirtan is Kirtan...not just hymns..psalms..holy verses in music...
Gurdwara is Gurdwara...not sikh church..sikh temple..sikh mandir..
Amrit is Amrit....and NOT nectar..sweet water...ambroisal liquid..etc etc
Guru Granth is Guru Granth...and NOT sikh bible..sikh holy book...
Ardass is Ardass...not just any prayer..supplication...
Guru is GURU....not just any teacher..
Kangha is Kangha...is not just a comb....any comb....
Kacha is Kacha ..and not short drawers..short pants..etc
Karra is Karra..not just a bangle...
Pyara is not just  a beloved....

These are all CONCEPTS rather than symbols......

We would have less problems..less energy wasted in generalising..trying to explain / fit new and unique Sikhi concepts with already acepted moulds of other religions/cultures etc. We have reduced these Great Concepts to SUPERFICIAL OBJECTS/SIMPLIFIED SYMBOLS..in bending over backwards to try and explain them..accepted less than poerfect substitutes...

Thank You for a well written contribution to the discussion...do please share more of your wisdom with all of us...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 1, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Gyani ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Very well put. No one could have said it better. Allow me to be one more box car of this Gurmat train whose engine is Ik Ong Kaar and yourself as its conductor.



Tejwant Singh Ji..
Gurfateh.

YES Ji..Ik Oan Kaar is the Engine... GURU NANAK JI SAHIB is the DRIVER of this Train....and there are many conductors....and passengers as well...

As a small boy i used to hear a refrain sung in Gurdwara... Saadeh Guraan ne jahaz banaiyah...and there used to be  apainting of a jahaaz on the swirling waters of the ocean with GURU JI sitting on the jahaaz and humanity climbing abroad to be saved.....and hundreds of small boats bringing in passengers to the Jahaaz of the GURU....its  a sad commentary on our times that today we are all concerned with our own little boats...and simply refuse to acknowledge the JAHAAZ the Gurus made for our safe Passage. Any one who some how manages to get hold of a tiny boat starts hollering for passengers and begins rolling in haumaii as to just how many passengers his boat has garnered..and begins going off on a tangent...leaving behind the Jahaaz of SGGS/Gurmatt. The tragedy is such haumaii struck boatmen not only drown/wander the oceans without direction..... they also drown their passengers. This is what is happening in so called Gurmatt Forums...instead of leading their readers TOWARDS GURMATT...providing them with TOOLS of GURMATT from GURBANI....they lead their members wayward....into the wilderness...Hopefully ALL of US here in SPN will not let that happen....with Guru jis Kirpa and  Swallii-Nazar....
Thank you for the kind words as always...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 1, 2009)

kulmahal said:


> Well said veer jee. Great topic. Kulwant from Michigan!



Nice to hear from you veer ji...
Hope Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh Ji SDO and his jatha are fine..and still continuing their great sewa.....
It would be great if you could share some of his articles on naam/Teeraths/Sant/ etc with the readers of SPN.


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## sikhway (Feb 2, 2009)

Sat Sri Akal!

[1] 
Wah=wow
Gu=darkness
ru=light
[2]
Gu+ru=one who brings light to darkness
+enlightner

[3] WOW ENLIGHTNER [saying it in amazement like when a child sees room full of candy] is the closest translation i have come up with for Waheguru.
It satisfies my mind and soul.

[4] Wea re to be in awe of the Waheguru like Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji were.

After ALL the creation was considered by Him and would be considered by us as God's creation and once we realize that how complex and beautiful it is and that it's His grace THEN only thing left to say is WOW ENLIGHTNER. 

[5] So when you are saying Waheguru think of the creation and be amazed and thankful in that one thought.

SO to Recite his Naam is to recite Waheguru.
NAAM is his GREATNESS.

Name is like a person's given name but his naam would be his greatness or evilness [but for God it is Greatness only.]

Like the song goes 'mitran da naa chalda'-

People affiliate a person's DOINGS to his name which becoems NAAM [his/her greatness or lack of it]

SO
Name+attributes=NAAM

Until something better is understood by this simple man, this thinking gives me an understanding of the philosophy.

It goes on and fits most of the things I know.
If not or if it does please email to sikh@telus.net
J Singh Sidhu
 Principal


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## Gurmit Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh Arshi,

  Waheguru jee ka Khalsa  Waheguru jee kee Fateh

After indicating the given Password and log in, I could not proceed further due to plenty directions just as excess of everything is bad. I will try again with the help of some
other mates when they visit this week.

As I understand, "Amrit, Baani, Naam, Shabd...." are synonymous. All these concepts are God's Virtues, which persons are required to attain by comprehending Gurbaani enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib from pages 1 to 1429. Naam used in the Guru Granth Sahib has
nothing to do with worldly Names. Nor Naam Simran is Waheguru repetition like Robots or Parrots.

I am sure you may have a Book: "Sikhism - Its Philosophy and History" edited by late Daljeet Singh and Dr. Kharak Singh, IOSS Publication 1997. In this Book, IAS Daljit
Singh had explained this term under Chapter "Naam in Sikhism" at pages 37 to 56. You may wish to share this with your Gurmatt Students and then if there is any other
specific Question/Doubt, we should again try to find answer through Gurbaani.

Gurmit Singh (Sydney-Australia)


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## dr.gsmann (Feb 2, 2009)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa! Waheguru ji ki fateh !!
        dear khalsa ji , in gurbani guruji has never mentioned about any concearn about worldly achievements , though he has taken examples from this naashwan world . Here nirdhan means the person who doesnt have blessings of GOD ,who is not his beloved one. and same stands for nithawan . In gurbani it is mentioned HUM RULTE FIRTE KOI BAAT NA POOCHTA !! here it dosent mean one is unnoticed in this useless world , the saying as said by Guruji himself means O'LORD it is you who cares for us. I may be wrong in interpretation please forgive me if I have done any blunders while expressing my views .


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## harbansj24 (Feb 2, 2009)

Gurfateh.

Naam Simran  is the process of cleansing  the soul. As the soul gets cleansed, a strange sense of pure joy or Chardian Kalan starts enveloping the person. Of co{censored} we being ordinary mortals do tend to slide back but Naam again puts one back on the track. It is a case of two steps forward and one step backward. As one gets into the state of Chardisn Kalan, the person gains confidence and becomes capable of providing for his legitimate physicsl needs. And  if help comes his way he becomes capable of making proper use of it and does not squander it.

If Bill Gates through his philanthrophy helps the needy his must understand that he is able to do this work because of HIS Hukam and not because he (Bill Gates) has desired it. If such a realisation strikes him he will experience the true bliss of Seva. This will bring him closer to the ONE and he will not get emotionally entangled with those God has led him to help.

So both, those with wordly wealth and those without benfit equally through Naam Simran to whatever religion they may belong.

In our Ardas we say, "Sikhan da man neevan, mat uchi, mat da rakha aap Waheguru"
So those Sikhs who endeavour to  keep the desires of their "Man" in control through superior "Mat" with the help of Naam then Waheguru helps them in their endevour.

Whatever I have written above are not my original thoughts but are just recollections of my inferior intellect of Kathas heard in the company of Sadhsangat.

May I be forgiven for any incorrect understanding.

Harbans Singh


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## spnadmin (Feb 2, 2009)

Gurmit_Singh ji

You said, _After indicating the given Password and log in, I could not proceed further due to plenty directions just as excess of everything is bad. I will try again with the help of some_

Forgive the digression. If you can read this message, send a moderator an email message to figure out why you had a problem logging on. Or contact Aman Singh ji -- you don't have to be logged in to do it. You can just select the Contact Us link at the top of the page.


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## Sidqui sikh (Feb 2, 2009)

I agree with Gyani Jarnail singh Arshi that name of god is a requirement of both the rich and the poor.


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## pk70 (Feb 2, 2009)

One of my Gurbani students made the following observation on Naam in Gurbani. Name is usually a Proper Noun....and given to us by our Parents/authority figure/etc. Since God doesnt have any parents/authority over Him...He has NO PROPER NOUN as a "Name" as we all do. All the "Names" of God...are Descriptive/adjectives/...attributes of Him...and given by his followers..
*I disagree. The Lord has created humans that only can name Him, actually they name for every thing.  Gyani ji, you name it to what we don’t name. There are many proper names that qualify the persons or a thing. Guru Gobind Singh ji named his Singh’s to qualify their* *qualities. Theory of proper name in concept of Lord’s name is not acceptable, I call HIM quiet often Dad...... what kind of attribute it can be? ..As long as a word brings His memory into mind, it’s His Name…….. After all, only a word is used to click memory button.
*
As such some call Him Raam..the All Permeating Lord....Rahim..the Giver...the Sustainer..The Beneficient..the Kind One..etc etc. These are called KIRTAM Names in Punajbi lingo.

In the light of this observation....my student observed that in Sukhmani ashtpadee 3..TERO NAO....Nirdhan ko tero Nao....usually translated as..To the POOR..wealth is YOUR NAME...to the shelterless..shelter is YOUR NAME...etc etc doesnt make sense.
*It does make make sense Gyani jio, nirdhan means poor, so as per Gurbani, we are all poor without the Lord, do not take it as the world takes its meaning because Maya(including wealth) is useless for the Lord’s seeker*.
 *ਪੰਨਾ 855, ਸਤਰ 9**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=855&punjabi=t&id=36426#l36426
**ਧਨਵੰਤਾ ਅਰੁ* *ਨਿਰਧਨ* *ਮਨਈ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਕਾਨੀ ਰੇ **॥
**Ḏẖ**anvan**ṯ**ā ar nir**ḏẖ**an man▫ī **ṯ**ā kī kac**ẖẖ**ū na kānī re.
**It gives no special consideration to either the rich or the poor.
**ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ*
*ਪੰਨਾ 964, ਸਤਰ 2**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=964&punjabi=t&id=41401#l41401
**ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਉ ਸੁ* *ਨਿਰਧਨ**ੁ ਕਾਂਢੀਐ **॥
**Jis no visrai nā▫o so nir**ḏẖ**an kāŉd**ẖ**ī▫ai.
**One who forgets the Name, is known as a poor person.
**ਮਃ **5*
*If whole concept is taken, it actually looks more beautiful
*
The "NAME" as in the case of the POOR would be Someone who gives them WEALTH....a human donor.... Philanthropist.... like Bill Gates who follows GOD in his heart and wishes to donate his GOD given wealth among the POOR. This ACTION of Bill gates woudl be acting out God's* KIRTAM NAME* as THE BENEFICIENT..the GIVER..the SUSTAINER....
*Not exactly, it has no value in Gurmat, giving away or charity is questioned many times and considered not important if the Lord is not remembered, in living in His love, purpose of the charity changes because*
*ਪੰਨਾ 56, ਸਤਰ 13**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=56&punjabi=t&id=2288#l2288
**ਪੁੰਨ* *ਦਾਨ* *ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਚੇ ਕਿਆ ਤਾਸੁ **॥
**Punn **ḏ**ān c**ẖ**ang▫ā▫ī▫ā bin sāc**ẖ**e ki▫ā **ṯ**ās.
**you may give donations to charity, and perform good deeds, but without the True One, what is the use of it all?
**ਮਃ **1 *
*So only the Charity considered worth is Lord’s Name (Given by Guru as per Gurbani). Lord’s name projects Lord’s image in mind in simple words, that is the real charity the seeker seeks, seekers of wealth are shooting in their own feet in context of spiritual world because all we wish actually drag us deep into attachment*

*. **ਪੰਨਾ 91, ਸਤਰ 15**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=91&punjabi=t&id=3675#l3675
**ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹੁ* *ਦਾਨ**ੁ ਦਇਆਲ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ **॥
**Ni**ṯ* *ḏ**evhu **ḏ**ān **ḏ**a▫i▫āl parab**ẖ** har nām **ḏẖ**i▫ā▫i▫ā.
**O Merciful God, please grant me the gift of continual meditation on the Lord's Name.
**ਮਃ **4 *
*Real GIVER is Him, Bill Gate is medium, spiritual seekers take all done is executed by Him, including what they do. Following Guru Vaak stresses the above stated idea in concept of Lord and other deeds praised by the world. Guru is not met, Lord is not realized, acting like Hari Chand(or Bill Gate) will get praise from the world but what kind of use this praise has as per Gurbani?  He is “Karta” Active Creator, His ferformance is seen through the mediums*
*ਪੰਨਾ 174, ਸਤਰ 13**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=174&punjabi=t&id=7272#l7272
**ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ* *ਦਾਨ**ੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਸਭ ਮੰਗੀ ਜੀਉ **॥
**Āpe jaga**ṯ** upā▫i**ḏ**ā mere govi**ḏ**ā har **ḏ**ān **ḏ**evai sab**ẖ** mangī jī▫o.
**He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord gives His gifts to all who beg for them.
**ਮਃ **4*
*ਹਰੀਚੰਦੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਜਸੁ ਲੇਵੈ **॥ 
**Harīcẖanḏ ḏān karai jas levai. 
**Hari Chand gave in charity, and earned public praise. 
**ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇ ਅਭੇਵੈ **॥ 
*Bin gur anṯ na pā▫e abẖevai. 
But without the Guru, he did not find the limits of the Mysterious Lord.
*You see, mere acts of Hari Chand remained useless in spiritual journey due to not having a true Guru as Guru convinces who actually deserves the credit of all this
*
Similarly whoever builds HOMES for the HOMELESS is follwiing Gods NAME as the Sustainer..builder..giver etc...

SO NIrdhan KO DHan tero Naao means to a Poor man to be Given wealth is like "acting out" One of your Names....
*You have misunderstood Guru vaak totally. It means the Lord is real wealth
*
NAAM should be WEALTH to ALL....why single out the POOR ONLY ??

*As stated above, all are poor, when His Name is obtained then real wealth is obtained, what wealth is this that is left here for others. In spiritual world, what is big deal in worldly show becomes meaningless for the Lord Seeker.*
   Can the POOR survive ONLY on "Naam" ?? 
*It is no about biological needs, it’s about spiritual diet, be aware.*
  Dont the wealthy need such "Naam" ?? 
*Wealthy of this world are the poorest if they don’t have Lord in mind, Gurbani stresses on it, it is a concept, either take the whole or don’t, and never take it in parts otherwise it will be horrible interpretation*
  So to say ONLy the Nirdhan take your "Naam" as wealth is patronising translation...why wouldnt the welathy take it as "wealth" too ?? Since Gurbani is always correct..the transaltions interpretations must be faulty..
*As put very correctly by Aman Singh ji on another thread, one is limited as per one’s limited knowledge, mastery over English doesn’t guarantee to make some one the best interpreter, Khuswant Singh is one good example of it and many others too fall in this category. I agree with you hundred percent, all translation I have come across is faulty regardless the author.  Unfortunately, Gurbani literally cannot be translated in complete sense, only in essence, Guru Message can be conveyed. Worse things happen when translator fails to go beyond the word that carries much more weight then its appearance.*
*Gyani jio, I have just presented my views as I understand Gurbani, I have not intended to prove you wrong at all, so forgive me if my words hurt you any way.

 [/FONT]*


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## pk70 (Feb 2, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> The moment we name the infinite, it ceases being The Infinite but becomes finite.
> *Infinite remains infinite only one becomes aware of His infinity, please do not limit concept of “the Infinite”, even who experienced Him didn’t say that.*
> 
> To know Ik Ong kaar, the Infinite, is to measure one's actions and deeds when no one is looking.
> ...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2009)

PK7o Ji,
Gurfateh.

You wrote..<<<*Gyani jio, I have just presented my views as I understand Gurbani, I have not intended to prove you wrong at all, so forgive me if my words hurt you any way.<<<<<<

How could you even think such a thought Jio....IF I knew everything and was always correct..i wouldnt need anyone/anything.....NO..we are all learning....un-learning and RE_learning..ALL the time. Our Only Perfect Teacher..the One who really Knows ALL is GURU-GURUBANI...we are all somewhat inadequate interpreters in our own way..BUT we do complete the picture when we come together...
You NEVER have to write the above quote...to any reply of mine..ever. ( I used to get angry..offended....decades ago....when i was immature and young....NOT any more ( BUT again I am OLDER..not necessarily "mature" as compared to before...but the GURBANI has managed to douse many fires i have..one of them is krodh...)
 [/FONT]*


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 3, 2009)

Pk70,

Guru Fateh. 

I think your posts are interesting. We all see different angles of the same prism called Gurbani. So when one says one disagrees with the other without giving a counter point but just twisiting what one has expressed, to me it is just for the sake of argument rather than pitching in. But I do appreciate your input and I thank you for that.

I will just give you one example in order to avoid any argument. Like you said Tool box is limited. Well, SGGS is only 1430 pages which is limited but not in its usage to make ourselves better. Now you can envision this in anyway you like.

I can dissect each of your statements and create a counter argument but that is not the point of this thread nor of my posts. Let's learn to pitch in, add and enhance others. Disagreements can be found the way each of us breathe if one wants to find them.

Tejwant Singh


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## pk70 (Feb 3, 2009)

> Guru Fateh.


Guru Fateh Vaheguruser ji



> I think your posts are interesting. We all see different angles of the same prism called Gurbani. So when one says one disagrees with the other without giving a counter point but just twisiting what one has expressed, to me it is just for the sake of argument rather than pitching in. But I do appreciate your input and I thank you for that.


 
What do you mean by that? You are thanking me for what? You believe I twisted your views and I feel I didn’t. Elaborate it please because I didn’t mean what you are stating.



> I will just give you one example in order to avoid any argument. Like you said Tool box is limited. Well, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only 1430 pages which is limited but not in its usage to make ourselves better. Now you can envision this in anyway you like.


 
Well this is pretty funny. Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not limited as tool box could be because Guru Message goes beyond modification, tools fail as new technology comes, some are modified, Sri Guru Granth Sahib doesn’t need that. The fact is this my respected SPN member, you have failed to acknowledge my last statement where I put healing words in case your mind feels pinch but it didn’t work unfortunately. 



> I can dissect each of your statements and create a counter argument but that is not the point of this thread nor of my posts.


 
Please do, I want to learn from you; however, threats are worthless.



> Let's learn to pitch in, add and enhance others. Disagreements can be found the way each of us breathe if one wants to find them.


 
If you reread my response, you should see "I disagreed; I pitched in" but look what it has done to you? You are threatening to dissect my posts; you are thanking me but still accusing me of twisting your views. I used word  "add” that is pitch in, did you get it? No. All I read is a reaction of an angry mind who is desperately trying to control to sound civil. Well, I am open to hear my limitations, if it is you who can teach me, what more I can ask for. Go ahead.


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## shearwater (Feb 4, 2009)

*Bill Gates is doing wonderful works through his charitable foundation.  It is a fact, however, that the relatively poor in the United States collectively give more than all those of means and wealth.  Jesus referred to a poor widow in the temple and taught that she had given more than the wealthy because she gave all she had.  So I guess in terms of value, it is the percentage we have accumulated compared to the percentage we give to charitable causes is the measure of our charity.  As I see the corruption of officials appointed by Barak Obama to be in his cabinet, I see that many of them did not pay their income taxes but while they were in another place and another time, they railed against those people who cheated on their income taxes.  That is the hypocrisy of the politically in crowd of the wealthy in the United States.*


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## Admin (Feb 4, 2009)

*Respected SPN'ers!! Let us all take a big breath and study one of the most important guideline of SPN:

Unity in Diversity: * Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know.

*No need to stress this point further.*


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 4, 2009)

shearwater said:


> *Bill Gates is doing wonderful works through his charitable foundation. It is a fact, however, that the relatively poor in the United States collectively give more than all those of means and wealth. Jesus referred to a poor widow in the temple and taught that she had given more than the wealthy because she gave all she had. So I guess in terms of value, it is the percentage we have accumulated compared to the percentage we give to charitable causes is the measure of our charity. As I see the corruption of officials appointed by Barak Obama to be in his cabinet, I see that many of them did not pay their income taxes but while they were in another place and another time, they railed against those people who cheated on their income taxes. That is the hypocrisy of the politically in crowd of the wealthy in the United States.*


 
Shearwater,

I gather from your posts that you are a Christian but also find somethng positive in Sikhism to enhance your personal life. The ultimate goal of any humanbeing is to become better and live by examples so others can follow more easily and then in return they can do the same to pave way for the next generation to come. This is the universal quest of all mankind irrespective of our hue, creed or faith.

But there is a big difference between Christianity and Sikhism in one important matter. In Christianity works( deeds ) do not matter but acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God does, whereas in Sikhism works( deeds) is the most important dish at this table of Spiritual banquet.

Guru Gobind Singh our 10th Guru said," Rehat pyari mujh koh, Sikh piara nahin". 

In other words, standing out as a Sikh with a Turban, long hair, etc etc, which is called Baana is nothing if one is not an outstanding person through works (deeds). And works( deeds) can only happen if we have the tools to breed goodness within.

I have no idea what religion Bill Gates belongs to (but I suspect he was born in a Christian household), which is an admirable thing in my opinion because as mentioned before, true religion is in the works (deeds). 

That is what Sikhi teaches through SGGS. For me he has Gurmat values whether he has read the SGGS or not. In fact if you read the Bill of Rights, every page echoes Gurmat values.

The fact is that he spends billions of dollars to help to eradicate Aids, poverty etc etc. is remarkably commedable. His works( deeds) also influenced Warren Buffet ( one more who was born in a Christian household, yet never propheced his personal beliefs out in open), another mulit billionarie to give most of his fortune to Bill Gate's charity.

So let's not denegrate others whom we may disagree with but appreciate their works(deeds) that make a difference in this sea of humanity.

Last thing I would like to say is that this spiritual journey of ours is the journey of the individual. Each of us carry our own spiritual torch. Let's try to fuel the others' torches if we can, not try to put them out.


Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 4, 2009)

Somebody mentioned that the "Tool Box" metaphor for Gurmatt Tools is "inadequate"..

Yes Tools may change..due to new technology....etc etc BUT the "CONCEPT" of the Tool Box remains INTACT. There will always be "tools" and always need of a "tool Box" to put them in. Todays "wheel" is very very different from say the wheel of 100o years ago..BUT its still a "wheel"  whether its the one on the Gadda in Rural Punjab or its on the latest Air Bus/ Boeing/Concorde airplane.
We must always go for the "Concept"....


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## pk70 (Feb 4, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Somebody mentioned that the "Tool Box" metaphor for Gurmatt Tools is "inadequate"..
> 
> Yes Tools may change..due to new technology....etc etc BUT the "CONCEPT" of the Tool Box remains INTACT. There will always be "tools" and always need of a "tool Box" to put them in. Todays "wheel" is very very different from say the wheel of 100o years ago..BUT its still a "wheel"  whether its the one on the Gadda in Rural Punjab or its on the latest Air Bus/ Boeing/Concorde airplane.
> We must always go for the "Concept"....



*Respected Gyani jio*
*It was not other but me who think it is inappropriate to use “Tool Box” metaphor for SGGS Ji. My reason is application of perfection, metaphor should convey perfection if it is used in context of perfection. If it is still appropriated for some individuals, so be it, I prefer to move on though still I stand by my “questioning Toolbox to be SGGS.”  Thanks for sharing your valuable views on it.*


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 5, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Somebody mentioned that the "Tool Box" metaphor for Gurmatt Tools is "inadequate"..
> 
> Yes Tools may change..due to new technology....etc etc BUT the "CONCEPT" of the Tool Box remains INTACT. There will always be "tools" and always need of a "tool Box" to put them in. Todays "wheel" is very very different from say the wheel of 100o years ago..BUT its still a "wheel" whether its the one on the Gadda in Rural Punjab or its on the latest Air Bus/ Boeing/Concorde airplane.
> We must always go for the "Concept"....


 
Gyani ji

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the enlightening post. We all know that SGGS is filled with metaphors. 

*met·a·phor * 

  (m
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





t
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







-fôr
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, -f
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




r) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE] 

[SIZE=-1]*NOUN:* [/SIZE]


A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in _"a sea of troubles"_ or _[SIZE=+0]"All the world's a stage"[/SIZE] __[SIZE=+0](Shakespeare).[/SIZE] _
 So it is futile in my opinion to nit pick on the usage of a metaphor like Tool box for Naam or for SGGS. I use quite often the metaphor,' Recipe book' for SGGS. The beauty of SGGS is that no matter what words one uses, they do not do any justice to its treasures.

Thanks once again

Tejwant Singh


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## pk70 (Feb 5, 2009)

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making* an implicit comparison*, as in _"a sea of troubles"_ or _[SIZE=+0]"All the world's a stage"[/SIZE] __[SIZE=+0](Shakespeare).

[/SIZE]_*[SIZE=+0]Thanks Vaheguru seeker jio for quoting Shakespeare, one can now realize why stress is given on" implicit comparison"[/SIZE]*_[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE] _


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 5, 2009)

pk70 said:


> A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making* an implicit comparison*, as in _"a sea of troubles"_ or _[SIZE=+0]"All the world's a stage"[/SIZE] __[SIZE=+0](Shakespeare).[/SIZE]_
> 
> *[SIZE=+0]Thanks Vaheguru seeker jio for quoting Shakespeare, one can now realize why stress is given on" implicit comparison"[/SIZE]*_[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]_


 
Pk70,

Guru Fateh.

As you may have noticed that I just copied and pasted the meaning from the dictionary. As you would also see that it is part of the meaning of 'Metaphor'.Hence it was not me quoting him.

But thanks anyway.
Tejwant


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## pk70 (Feb 5, 2009)

vaheguruseekr said:


> pk70,
> 
> guru fateh.
> 
> ...




*thanks jio*


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## Balkar Singh (Feb 18, 2009)

Dear Giani ji,
           Gurfateh. It's a very sensitive subject , I fear to talk b'coz people like to believe what scholers , philosophers and grammerians say. Gurbani is not a subject of mere translation of words to words,  but  gives directions to reach the destination .
                "Everything lies in these words  ( of Gurbani )
                 but these words will shed away
                 the real word does not lie in them."     Kabirji -340

         The Naam is password to divinity,
         it must   be meditated upon,
         Gurbani is the praise of  God the Infinite,
         the praise fills us with enthusiasm to move forward,
         something is much more sweet there,
         then the sweetness of -
           "shakkar khand nivat gurh,maakhio majha dudh"    Baba Faridji- 1379

we walk & talk but the Divinity lies in...... to be still and silent.
still and silent for a single moment , gives immence happiness - Bliss  ! Anand  !
the moment is worth much more then the worth of the worlds.
  NAMASTG ANAAME                   
                                                With warm regards,
                                                   Balkar Singh


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