# Do All Religions Lead To God?



## Admin (Aug 24, 2005)

It is sometimes argued that all religions lead to God, especially in Sikhism? 
What are your ideas about this statement?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 25, 2005)

It is TRUE that ONLY SIKHS say this of all other religions.

Ask any Christian...his answer will be THE ONE and ONLY WAY..is through Jesus...IF you beleive in  any others.. no way you will be saved. Period.

Same for Muslims and the Koran... Prophet Muhammed is the ONE and LAST PROPHET...IF you dont beleive in the Prophet..no way to be saved.

ONLY the SIKH GURUS had close and dear friends among ALL religions...Hindus, Brahmins, Shudars, muslims. Guru nanak ji went to all four corners of the earth...visiting all the big and famous places of religious Worship..the Harmandir Sahib Sikhism's Holiest Shrine is one whose FOUNDATION was laid by a Muslim Mian mir..Guru Garanth Sahib jee, Sikhism's Holiset collection of GURBANI contains Banis from Muslims, hindus and many others who were not SIKHS.  Thsi si a FIRST in World History..NO HOLY TEXTS of any religion contain even one line form any other religion...the SIKH religious Text contains many many pages of such Other writigns.

Sikhism regards all as BROTHERS..all as Creations of the Same GOD..in Gurabni Allah, Raam, Krishan, Gobind, Haree, Raam, all refer to the SAME AKAL PURAKH.

But now we come to one common failure... it is a fallacy to read all the above to mean that since All religions lead to the SAME "GOD" then why have SIKHISM ??..Why be a SIKH at all..why not be a Muslim...christian..Hindu..

Gurbani and the GURUS..DID NOT SEEK to CONVERT anyone. In fact Gurbani contains so many passages addressed to HINDUS..BE a GOOD and STEADFAST HINDU... to a MUSLIM..Be a GOOD MUSLIM and steadfast in YOUR own religion.

Guur Teg bahadur Ji gave His LIFe in Delhi MARTYRED by the Muslim Emperor Aurengzeb for the RIGHT of HINDUS to Practise their Religion. Aurengzeb wanted to CONVERT all to ISLAM..GURU JI was chosen by the HINDUS to champion their Right to HINDUISM. The Interesting thing is that GURU NANAK Ji and  all the other Sikh gurus including GURU TEG BAHADUR Ji  TOTALLY REJECTED HINDUISM...and all its BELIEFS and RITUALS such as Idol worship, 33 kror devis and devtas, janeaus, caste system etc etc..BUT GURU JI gave his life to DEFEND the HINDUS right to practise their religion.  Thsi is also a FIRST in the History of the world..NO PROPHET has ever DIED for any other religion. NO Prophet has ever sacrificed for others.

Then WHY SIKHISM..why be a Sikh ?  Because ONLY SIKHE/GURMATT has the Concept of NAAM JAPP. NAAM is SUPREME in Sikhe...Sikhe REJECTS all karam kaands..like Good deeds, bathing at teeraths/pilgrimages, Fasts, praying etc which are doen as RELIGIOUS DUYIES. IF there is NO NAAM in all these then they are just empty rituals...valueless.

The ONLY "CURRENCY" that is LEGAL TENDER in the Boat of Kingdom of WAHEGURU is NAAM. Good deeds, charity, pilgrimages, etc etc all help make a good person..a happy perosn, a peace loving person...but as currency in God's Kingdom..they are of no value..they wont go with you.

The CONCEPT of NAAM is unique to Sikhe.... its IMPORTANCE above all else is ONLY in SIKHE. No other religion stresses this as much...And Most important of all NAAM assures MERGER with WAHEGURU....Jeewan Muktee. In Sikhe there is NO heaven/no hell per se. All those are on this EARTH..and the good deeds, charity, donations etc etc are for this EARTH. ONLy NAAM goes to NEXT..Abode of WAHEGURU.

Second MAJOR difference between the GOD/ALLah/Raam/Brahma Vishnu Shiva..... and WAHEGURU is this.  The GOD of the Bible is full of Anger, fire and Brimstone, punishing and destroying whole cities, wiping out entire continets..even DROWNING the entire EARTH..to punish the sinners...same for Allah of the Koran..He THUNDERS and ROARS...

BUT WAHEGURU of SIKHE is FOREVER SMILING..PEACEFUL..NEVER ANGRY for even an Instant..Never PUNISHING/VENGEFUL/..Mitth bolrra ji har sajan mera..speaking ever so SOFTLY...in SIKHE and GURMATT..BOTH the Angel and the Devil are WAHEGURU..Both the sinner and the good are WAHEGURU..IN FACT it is ONLY and ONLY WAHEGURU everywhere. Thus Sikhe has NO DEVILS and EVIL..all is the HUKM of WAHEGURU.

SO there is ONLY ONE "PEAK"...and many Paaths up the mountain... SIKHISM's PATH is straight and easy almost like rididng an ELEVATOR all the way UP..while all others STOP at the PEAK...Sikhe SHOOTS UP HIGHER into the SKY...

Jarnail Singh


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## Wanderer2369 (Aug 25, 2005)

Actually protestants also say, the one way - true way, is God. God is hope, peace and life. Which is why we differ from christians. Because we're not forced to. It just says, if you believe in anything - enough. Ultimately it will lead you back to God. Catholics say salvation is found in church and praying. We say - we dont need buildings to pray and worship God. to rejoice God, yes. Not to pray and that be our  only way to redeem ourselves.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 26, 2005)

Wanderer2369 said:
			
		

> Actually protestants also say, the one way - true way, is God. God is hope, peace and life. Which is why we differ from christians. Because we're not forced to. It just says, if you believe in anything - enough. Ultimately it will lead you back to God. Catholics say salvation is found in church and praying. We say - we dont need buildings to pray and worship God. to rejoice God, yes. Not to pray and that be our only way to redeem ourselves.


 
Please do tell us more about this.  The more likeminded people in different religions come together to share ideas..the more peaceful our earth will become. We must act more forcefully to keep the Fanatic Minority fringe in every religion in their proper place....

Jarnail Singh


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## Satyaban (Aug 27, 2005)

Namaskar,
 Indeed I do believe this. As a Shaivite it is a part of my faith
It is said that Sri Ramakrishna experienced all faiths. I also believe that all are on a spiritual path even the atheist.


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## truthseeker (Aug 28, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!

THis may seem like a very ingnorant question.. but im really curious. Satyaban ji, You said that you are a Shaivite. I have never heard of this religion before.. and was wondering maybe if you could enliten us all about your religion.

Plz forgive me
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!!


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## Satyaban (Aug 29, 2005)

Namaste

Truthseeker your your question does not appear nor is it ignorant.
I am a devotee of Lord Shiva. I do not use the word "hindu" because that identifies an ethnic group more than a spiritual faith. Perhaps Sanatana Dharma is a better term but even this covers a great many practices or faiths.

Using the term Shaivite puts a little finer point on how I worship. But make no mistake the fact that I call god Shiva is not to mean there is more than one God because we worship "That One" who is the creation and the creator of all without beginning and without end.

Peace my friend

Satyaban


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## kds1980 (Aug 29, 2005)

Satyaban said:
			
		

> Namaskar,
> Indeed I do believe this. As a Shaivite it is a part of my faith
> It is said that Sri Ramakrishna experienced all faiths. I also believe that all are on a spiritual path even the atheist.



wjkk
wjkf

      welcome to sikhphilosophy.net satyaben.i read your id on hindunet.com
i regularly visit that site


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## Satyaban (Aug 30, 2005)

Cool  I haven't been there enough lately.

Peace


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## orange_slice (Sep 4, 2005)

The way I understand it, it is not so much which religion brings you to God (because all potentially can), but rather which method will bring you to God.  Sikhism tells us meditating on God's name and abolishing the five vices are necessary to attain salvation.  Well, these things can be done through any religion.  So whichever religion you follow, meditating on God's name and giving up greed, ego, lust, attachment, and anger is crucial to attaining salvation.  So, someone of Religion X who believes in holy wars or forcibly converting people will not attain salvation, but this is not because they are part of Religion X; it is because they are not devoting their lives to meditating on God's name and destroying the five vices.  Instead they are devoting their lives to the destruction of life and the conversion of others through force.  

Bottom line, yes, all religions can potentially lead to God, but meditating on His name and destroying the five vices is a necessity for anyone to attain salvation, no matter which religion.


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## KSKhalsa (Sep 4, 2005)

Remember GOD in whatever way one can!

You can say WJKK WJKF or RAM, ALLAH, CHRIST whatever u say, but whenever you are remembering HIM realization of HIS values can bring more near to HIM.

I would like to add here, may be someone can correct me, if I'm wrong that RELIGION is only ONE that is to have His Remeberance and DO all the good deeds for which you are capable, rather we may have different FAITHS- SIKH, HINDU, MUSLIM, CHRISTIAN, BUDHISM, JAINISM etc. Whatever faith you may choose, One thing is very clear that ROLE of YOUR GURU, I mean to say TEACHER. Main crux lies on is you must have Truthful Guru, and you have full devotion towards that GURU who can act as intermediary and who know about the GOD and GOD is infinite and all of us have finity. So whomsoever is your GURU must have accessability to GOD. Thats why, in Sikhism there is no difference between GOD and GURU. In the shape of eternal light HE is in everyone and is everywhere like we can see the 'sky color' of sky in pots filled with water . and whatever path you may choose if you have determination and Love towards Him, HE will automatically recognizes that faith -whatever faith.

That is one of the reason I'm strong believer that Sikhism faith is quite nearer to this as there is no difference in SATGURU and GOD. IF you love your Satguru/GOD HE will automatically recognizes your feelings and there is no need to worry- why -becauze worry for only those things which cannot be possible and everything in this human life is possible - Life, Death, Happiness, Sorrows etc.

Let us pray that fragnance of love and equal treatment for all prevails in this world - Let us grow where we can't restrict ourselves to my, own -family, community,society, state, country. Deliver the message of Universal brotherhood which is the essence of Sikhism.

I'm thankful to my Satguru/ God who has given me this realization and ability to write on this controversial subject. 

Wherever HE prevails leads to have no controversy.


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## Satyaban (Sep 4, 2005)

My friend,
I see no controversy in faith but dogma and ideology are diversions to worship.


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## KSKhalsa (Sep 4, 2005)

My brother Satyaban,

My last line is to just narrate to this world that why you are creating controversy for Religion. There is none other than One Religion and that religion is to have true compassion, respect and love for God and all faiths - one or the other somehow tend to make us good human being. So, respect for all faiths in everyone's heart is my main message. My Satguru has warned the followers of all those faiths who want to create controversy for their political, social or religious gains instead of spreading the real message behind the faith. Even, if sikhs are not going to heritage the real message of their Satguru, they will also face the same fate.

Thanks for your correction.


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2005)

My friend,
I hope you didn't misunderstand me. When I spoke of dogma and ideology I meant that they are man made divisors. I agree with you.


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## dattaswami (Oct 4, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> It is sometimes argued that all religions lead to God, especially in Sikhism?





			
				Aman Singh said:
			
		

> What are your ideas about this statement?




* World Religions:*


If anyone says that his/her religion is the only path to God and that other paths lead to hell, I have one humble question.  The question is for every religion without any trace of partiality.  *The simple question is:* Today I have heard your Religion and if I follow that, I reach God and if I refuse I will go to the hell for my own fault.  This is very much reasonable.  But before your ancestors discovered our country, the literature or even the name of your religion was not known to our ancestor and he could not reach God for no fault of him.  But your ancestor reached God through your religion at that time.

Even if I assume that my ancestor will take rebirth now and will follow your religion to reach God, such possibility is ruled out because you say that there is no rebirth for the soul.  Thus my ancestor suffered forever for no fault of him and the responsibility for this falls on the partiality of God.  Had the God been impartial, He could have revealed your religion to all the countries at a time. Had that happened, my ancestor might have also reached God as your ancestor.  Therefore your statement proves your own God partial.  

The only way left over to you to make your God impartial is that you must accept that your God appeared in all the countries at a time in various forms and preached your path in various languages.  The same form did not appear everywhere and the same language does not exist everywhere.  The syllabus and explanation are one and the same, though the media and teachers are different.  Can you give any alternative reasonable answer to my question other than this?  Certainly not!  Any person of any religion to any other religion can pose this question.  

Moreover every religion states that their God only created this world.  Unfortunately this world is one only and every God cannot create the same world.  There are no many worlds to justify that each God created His own world.  Therefore any human being with an iota of commonsense has to agree that there is only one impartial God who created this one world and He came in different forms to different countries and preached the same path in all the languages simultaneously at one time.  

Let this logic sword of the divine knowledge cut the rigid conservatism of the religious fans in this world to establish the Universal Peace.  I need not beg all these religious followers to be united and harmonious to each other for the sake of world peace.  Such begging appeals are made enough in the past.  The religious fans feel that there is no unity really in the religions but they have to be united since their kind hearts melted by these appeals.  Thus a temporary change was only brought.  At the maximum one generation of the followers got united.  The next generation fights with each other because they feel that there is no real unity in them due to lack of the real unity in their religious scriptures.

A permanent solution for this does not lie in the begging appeals, which may or may not unite the followers.  Even if the appeals unite such unity is not permanent.  If the real unity in all the religious scriptures is exposed through the logical divine knowledge, the followers have to be united for generations together.  Therefore, My attack is not on the hearts of the followers through love and kindness.  My attack is on all the religious scriptures through intellectual logical analysis of divine knowledge.  The unity of hearts through love can be only temporary.  The unity of brains through intellectual analytical divine knowledge will be permanent.  Hearts agree but brains realize.  Agreement is temporary, but realization is permanent.  Thus this is My first blow of My divine Conch shell for the permanent unity of all the religions aiming at eternal Universal Peace.  

At the Lotus feet of Datta Swami
ANIL ANTONY
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Universal Spirituality for World Peace


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## dattaswami (Oct 4, 2005)

Every Religion in this world wants you to get rid of bad qualities at least from today for the admission into that religion which is practically impossible.  The reason is that these bad qualities were grown like hills for the past millions of births.  This small human life is insufficient even to move them, not to speak of removing them.  People can control the bad qualities to some extent by their efforts. 

 These bad qualities are frequently sparking in the minds of even the most pious sages.  If one says that he is good and he is devoid of all the bad qualities, it only cheating others, which in turn is cheating oneself.  Due to this practically impossible condition, for the religious admission, people have developed allergy towards any religion because the eligibility for admission is impractical.  

The religious preachers have confused the whole situation by fusing religion and spiritualism.  Religion is the context of GOD to establish peace and justice in this world.  In this context, you must control your bad qualities so that you will not disturb the peace and justice and will not harm any good person in this world.  If you disturb the world by your bad qualities, God will punish you.  But, in this context, it is sufficient if you control the bad qualities since you cannot remove them.  The Religion ends here.  Some religions strictly end here without any spiritualism.

The spiritualism is the context in which you have to make efforts to reach God.  In this context, you need not even control your bad qualities because, God has no personal objection towards your bad qualities.  These bad qualities cannot be obstacles in any manner in this context.  Moreover, when you turn these bad qualities towards the God, they become your helpers. 

 Any quality whether good or bad, is created by God only to help you in reaching Him.  If you realize the original aim of all these qualities, good or bad, why should you control these qualities, which are with you as a helper?  No fool controls his helpers.  So, any quality when involved in spiritualism is used for its original aim, it becomes a good quality.  So all your qualities become good in spiritualism and you need not put any effort to remove or even control them.  When the qualities are not used for their original purpose, they become bad qualities.  Therefore, whatever qualities turned towards the world, are bad qualities.  In this spiritualism, there is no need of any effort even to control these bad qualities.  

Then, for what, our effort should be made?  Our effort should be concentrated to achieve “Bhakthi” which is the love on God.  “Bhakthi” is achieved and is grown by the knowledge of God.  For example, you came to know that Bombay City exists.  This is the knowledge of existence of Bombay.  By this you want to see Bombay.  As you know the details of Bombay more and more, your desire to see the city becomes more and more.  Knowing details about the Bombay City is again the further knowledge.  

So, knowledge is directly proportional to desire.  First Rukmini heard that there is Lord Krishna on this earth.  As she heard more and more about Lord Krishna from Sage Narada, her love on Krishna increased enormously.  Narada means he who gives knowledge.  Therefore, ‘Jnana”(knowledge) generates and develops “Bhakthi (devotion)”.  Due to Bhakthi, the Lord is attained.  Gita says the same ‘ONLY BY BHAKTHI I AM ATTAINED’ (‘Bhaktya………’).

In the spiritual path all your effort must be concentrated in acquiring the knowledge of God day by day.  Once this knowledge based Bhakthi (devotion) is achieved, your qualities good or bad are immaterial.  Whatever may be the vessel, the drink in it is important.  The value paid in a hotel is for the drink only.  If you have taken a cup of coffee, you are paying the cost of the coffee only whether the cup is made of glass or metal.

 Similarly, God gives value only for your Bhakthi and not for your quality.  I will give a beautiful example here.  “Sabari” is with good qualities and offered fruits to the Lord Rama who is Vishnu.  A hunter called “Kannappa” gave flesh to the Lord Siva.  Sabari reached the ‘World of Vishnu and Kannappa reached the World of Shiva”.  Both have reached the same Lord because Veda says, “Shiva is Narayana”.  Both of them have been given the similar value by the Lord because in both cases, the intensity of the devotion is the same as both gave even their food without eating.  

Therefore, this proves clearly that the Lord has no objection for your bad qualities.  Hence, all the effort should be only to achieve and increase the intensity of love devotion or Bhakthi on God.  It is not necessary to bother about your qualities that are inherent coming from millions of births.  They are the born qualities.  The tail of the dog is curved.  Any effort cannot make it straight.  By force, we can keep it straight but it has not become straight. 

 Similarly you can control your bad qualities for not disturbing peace of the world by some force.  When you come to God, you come in your natural state because you can deceive the world showing that your banded tail is straight but not the God.  Whether the river comes in straight path or curved path, the ocean receives only the water with equality.  Similarly, God receives your love irrespective of your quality.  He received “Sabari” and ‘Kannappa” equally.  Sabari with good qualities and Kannappa with bad qualities reached the same Lord, as their devotion is of same intensity.

A piece of gold is wrapped in an old cloth.  A stone is wrapped with a metallic foil.  Which has more total value?  Similarly, the love with high intensity covered even by a bad quality has more total value than the love with lesser intensity covered by a good quality.  When the blood flew from the eye of the Lord, the Priest who is a person with good qualities is trying to apply the medicine.  But, his devotion is less.  In the same situation, “Kannappa” plucked his eyes and donated to the Lord.  

Kannappa is a person with bad qualities but his devotion is the highest.  Devotion is the highest good quality.  Now let us evaluate the total cost of the priest and Kannappa.  The devotion in Kannappa is +100.  The bad qualities in Kannappa are  –10.  The total cost is +90.  The priest with good qualities is +10.  The devotion in him is +20.  The total cost is +30.  So, of the two who is good? Obviously it is Kannappa.  Gita says, that, “Even the worst is best by Bhakthi” (Api chet….).

Therefore, what is the eligibility for the admission into our religion of Guru Datta?  The eligibility is that you should be a living being.  Even animals and birds are eligible to reach God irrespective of their qualities.  Even serpent, spider and the elephant got salvation in Sri Kala Hasthi.  The serpent has all bad qualities.  God did not insist the serpent to get rid of all the bad qualities.  Even if God says, the serpent is unable to understand put the efforts.  

When such a serpent is eligible, why not a man?  All the people are depressed and dejected with the eligibility conditions stipulated by various religions. For example if an Institution stipulates the eligibility condition as that one should remove his head and come, nobody can be admitted.  Similarly the religions stipulate the removal of all the bad qualities, which is impossible.  Only a temporary control is possible which is necessary for you to live in this world with peace.  This control is possible.  In our religion also we are stipulating this condition, which is possible.  So, in our Datta religion, the eligibility condition is that if your bad qualities do not disturb the world, the Lord has no personal objection to them and you need not even control them.  Moreover, they will help you in spiritualism.

How to turn the bad qualities towards God and make them helpers in reaching the God?  There are six bad qualities that are inherent in any living being since millions of births.  They are Lust (kama), Anger (krodha), Greediness (Lobha), ego (mada), Blind attraction (Moha) and Jealousy (Matsarya).  Anger, greediness, ego and jealousy come under Rajas quality.  Lust and blind attraction come under Tamas quality. I give you an example to divert your bad qualities towards the Lord, which can be used as powerful vehicles.  Example:- Love in cinema songs can be diverted to the Lord by little change in words.  Then, the powerful tune that created sweet feelings in you is now a powerful vehicle to make you to reach the Lord.  

A film song  ‘Churaliya Tumne ……’) instead of ‘Sanam’ replace the word with ‘Hare’.  All the sweetness of your mind is now on the Lord Krishna (Vishnu).  See how a person, mad after cinema songs become a powerful devotee in his own way without any change!  You can sing this as your prayer for which you need not put any effort by force.  Your worship should be natural and spontaneous, which alone can be true.  

At the Lotus feet of Datta Swami
ANIL ANTONY
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Universal Spirituality for World Peace


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## Astroboy (Aug 26, 2007)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Source: howcultswork.com)

World religions are not cults.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Who is religious?*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A religious person is a person who has a belief system. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Therefore, everybody is religious, since everybody has a belief system.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Everybody believes something about reality. That belief system is their religion, whether it is a popular world religion or not. [/FONT]



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*How does a person’s religion effect them?*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Since their religion dictates their world view, their understanding of reality, it is used as a set of base rules to help formulate their decisions.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For example:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Christian would not be keen to be involved with a séance; because she believes that there is a God, that God wrote the Bible, and since the Bible commands that people avoid necromancy (communication with the dead) she had better obey that command. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Hindu may not want to eat beef since he believes cows are sacred and he would generate bad karma for his next life. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An Atheist or “Naturalist” may believe that there is nothing beyond the material realm, and finding this thought depressing she turns to alcohol, or some other form of escape to dull the pain of the “pointlessness of life”.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Muslim may take a trip to Mecca, since he believes that the God of Islam has commanded every Muslim, who is able, to do this at least once in his lifetime.[/FONT]


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## Astroboy (Aug 26, 2007)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Source: howcultswork.com)[/FONT]

World religions are not cults.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*How do people validate their belief systems?*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Firstly, it is surprising that a great deal of people never spend time validating their belief system.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many people who would carefully examine a school before sending their children there, or would carefully research a company before investing in it, never set aside time to investigate what they believe. We would suggest that examining your belief system is an extremely wise thing to do.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now back to the question; the common ways people validate their religion are by asking the following five questions: [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) If the religion makes historical claims how valid are they? For example if the religion is based on a historical figure, then is there strong historical evidence that the person actually existed?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2) Does the belief system make sense, is it consistent? For example if the religion teaches that you must own a hat, and also teaches elsewhere that you must not own a hat, then that is contradictory. It does not make sense. If a religion is true then we would expect it to have robust internal integrity, and not contradict itself. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3) Does the belief system reflect reality? For example, if the religion in question teaches that all people are basically good, do we see evidence of this, or is the opposite true? If the opposite is true then we must question that religion. So it is reasonable to expect a belief system to have good external integrity, and accurately reflect the reality we see around us. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4) Does the religion have good explanatory power? In other words does it give first-rate explanations of those things which puzzle us most? Things like the nature of being, where we came from, where we are going, the problem of guilt, the origin of logic, love, good and evil, and so on. We can expect a true belief system to cast light on these questions. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5) Lastly how does it stack up against other belief systems? If we were to consider one religion which had no historical evidence, no internal integrity, no external integrity, and weak explanatory power, against one whose history was verified, which suffered no major internal or external integrity problems, and offered reasonable explanations for many of life’s mysteries. Then common sense dictates that we choose the latter over the former. Ultimately we must compare belief systems and settle on the strongest. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These questions of course are not the only tests which allow us to validate a belief system.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Religion is often described as a quest, a quest for the truth. Arguably the most important quest of someone’s life.[/FONT]


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## Astroboy (Aug 26, 2007)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Source: howcultswork.com)

World religions are not cults.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Aren’t all religions the same?*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]People that teach all religions are the same claim that religions “differ on the minors but agree on the majors”. In other words all the religions may have superficial differences but where it really counts they are the same.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Surprisingly, this well intentioned idea is a religious view itself. It is a belief about reality. The adherents to this belief system are often kind hearted people who think that by making all religions the same they will help eliminate wars and other types of suffering. Unfortunately, as nice as the idea sounds, it is not supported by the evidence. For example, one belief system claims that God is outside of the universe and not part of it, another religion claims that God is the universe. These statements can not both be true since they are contradictory. Either the first belief is true, or the second belief is true, or neither of them is true, but they cannot both be true at the same time and in the same way. While a number of beliefs are shared between some religions, the reality is that most religions differ significantly from each other. And they differ in vitally important areas of belief. Just peruse the World Religion’s subsections if you doubt this.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is intellectually dishonest to claim all religions are the same. It is more honest to recognize their differences and compare them to each other, with the purpose of figuring out which one, if any, is most likely to be correct.[/FONT]



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Does it really matter what I believe?*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If there is life after death then it probably matters a great deal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Imagine you are in a jet plane over the ocean. This plane has an amount of fuel left. You do not know how much fuel, but you do know for certain that there is not enough to get you to land. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you do not find a way out then you will die when the plane plunges into the sea.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Inside your plane is a whole bunch of parachutes. Each parachute has been designed by different people and reflects their thoughts on how a parachute should work. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some designs are clearly suspect, like the “Acme Anvil Parachute” which on pulling the cord ejects an anvil attached to a rope. Others seem more likely to work; like the one which promises to sprout feathered wings and flap you gently down to the ground. Then there are those which seem really good, a few of them claim to eject a wing of silk attached by hundreds of strong threads, and as a bonus they even claim to have a life raft attachment. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]However on investigation you find one of these great sounding parachutes is actually made of tissue paper![/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly in the time you have left, before the jets engines suck the fuel tanks dry, you will invest a lot of effort in discovering which parachute is most likely to work.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now all of us are, metaphorically speaking, in a doomed plane.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At some finite time in the future you will die. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At some finite time from now the blood will cease flowing in your body. You will stop breathing. Your brain will shut down. No longer will your body repair itself, instead it will fall apart. There will be a definite point when you cease to have life. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If people are able to see your eyes when you die they will be able to tell the point at which life leaves you, it’s like a light being switched off.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And that is going to happen to you. It’s inevitable. It’s only a matter of time.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In general people are scared by the prospect of death, and as things go it’s a pretty worthy thing to be afraid of. Even people who joke about death, or say they are not scared of it, when the time comes are petrified. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“It is hard to have patience with people who say ‘There is no death’ or ‘Death doesn't matter.’ There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter.” – C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed, 1961. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now while death itself is scary, what is even more frightening is the prospect of life after death being a reality *and* you having the wrong parachute.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So does it really matter what I believe?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes it does. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ask yourself, are you prepared to take the risk of believing the wrong thing? Because in the end you’re the one who must suffer the consequences.[/FONT]


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## spnadmin (Aug 26, 2007)

Begum ji

Congrats!!! This is a comprehensive and at the same time clearly written essay with some serious tools of analysis therein. Every single one of the paragraphs is a window into how to compare and contrast religions to find similarities and differences -- and if we had had this to read a few months ago perhaps we would have been spared some agonizing episodes in which numerous, ridiculous statements were made and were often countered in equally ridiculous ways.

People have to be allowed to ask questions, like the questions listed above, without being targeted as misled, confused, lost, imbeciles, under-educated, full of Haumei and all the rest. Some of those discussions were almost scripts. A person could predict who was going to say what next.


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## Satyaban (Aug 31, 2007)

With respect Begum

Let me try to more clearly express my position.


I believe everyone is on a spiritual path or journey. Even the atheist or non believer is experiencing a spiritual evolution

When I look at the commonalities of religions I see love God, worship God, and do not harm fellow beings. The final result of which is reunion or eternal fellwship with God. It is my belief that anyone who follows and obeys these three requirements in time will have the desired result. Of course my opinion is predicated on my belief that there is one "Creator" and all worship the same God whether they are aware of it or not.

Problems set in when various religions claim exclusivity on "The Truth". This and other such doctrine and idealogy are divisors for those who take the bait.

Some believe we only have one chance to get these three things right( love God, worship God, and do no harm. I do not believe this to be because a loving Creator would give its children chances time after time as I have done my own. So if the choice of parachute is not ideal for the situation perhaps the next one will give a better result, perhaps we need to experience all of the parachutes to complete the evolutional journey of the soul.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Astroboy (Aug 31, 2007)

You are a wise person. Why don't you expand your wisdom here a bit more. Once upon a time I was visited by a Pandit who passed by my office. When he saw me, he told me I am honoured to have met a person like you. He made me feel special, so I thought, "maybe I can't see it, but others can."

What a fool I was. Because he was seen elsewhere telling the same thing to that person. I felt cheated and taken for a ride. :rofl!!:


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## dattaswami (Aug 31, 2007)

*Resolving contradictions between different scriptures*


The same Lord came to different parts of the world in different age to preach the same Divine Knowledge. All the scriptures of the world are the records of the knowledge given by the same Lord and hence cannot contradict each other. Yet we find sometimes that there are some glaring contradictions between different scriptures of the world. This is in part due to fact that the Lord taught the same truth in different ages and places in a slightly different way, so as to suit the culture and language of the people. This is only an extraneous difference. The essential knowledge is the same. Correct interpretation will remove the contradiction.
Sometimes there may be an apparent difference even in the essential meaning. 

In such as case the inconsistency is probably caused by corruption of the scripture over generations. Comparison with other scriptures of the world will help in removing the corrupted portions in each scripture. Here it becomes essential to bring in experience as a prama?a or a valid means of knowledge. While comparing contradictory views in different scriptures, the view which agrees with experience or anubhuti should be taken as correct. 

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
**************************************


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2007)

Begum my respected friend,

"When he saw me, he told me I am honoured to have met a person like you. He made me feel special, so I thought, "maybe I can't see it, but others can.""

If this "once upon a time" pandit made such remarks to 100 people does that have make it untrue for you?

"What a fool I was. Because he was seen elsewhere telling the same thing to that person. I felt cheated and taken for a ride."

What were you cheated out of? You may have felt foolish but that does not make one a fool. What a person feels does not define them, feelings are not facts and they pass.

"*Does it really matter what I believe?
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If there is life after death then it probably matters a great deal."[/FONT]

What I believe does not affect what is true. Imagine you have two individuals. Person A is a Christian and believes he has only one lifetime to acheive "salvation" and person B believes in reincarnation. Each lives his life 
worshipping The Creator, doing what is right as best he could, and causing no harm. When each died would what they believed make any difference. Would person A be denied rebirth with unresolved karma and advance to reunion with The Creator and person B continue to ride the cycle of rebirth to advance spiritually?

Peace
Satyaban


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## TGill (Sep 5, 2007)

Dear Satyaban ji,

Truly very well presented thought from you. Nice to have people like you on this forum. Very refreshing !!

Thanks


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## Astroboy (Sep 5, 2007)

This a very interesting topic, Satyaban Ji. 
I wish to hear from your wise thoughts, we'll all learn alot from you.


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## Lionchild (Sep 17, 2007)

I myself believe that most paths lead to god and enlightenemtn (among other things too).

I have seen many people who are close to god in other religions, and are doing good works for everyone else around them.

To say One religion has a monopoly over gods attention, violates one of gods attributes anyways - that being infinite in both love and power.


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## daggeroftruth (Sep 19, 2007)

Satyaban said:


> Namaskar,
> Indeed I do believe this. As a Shaivite it is a part of my faith
> It is said that Sri Ramakrishna experienced all faiths. I also believe that all are on a spiritual path even the atheist.


Peace to all seekers of peace, brother in creation, i dnt think anyone who truelly believes in God almighty will agree with ur false statement that even athieism is spiritual path unless they want to lie. One who dsnt even believe in his creator can not have any spirituality, his/her spirit is dead as evil. Peace Peace Peace.


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## daggeroftruth (Sep 19, 2007)

Satyaban said:


> Begum my respected friend,
> 
> "When he saw me, he told me I am honoured to have met a person like you. He made me feel special, so I thought, "maybe I can't see it, but others can.""
> 
> ...


Peace to all paece seekers. Satyaban ji, i dnt know why but ur stetements seem really devious, just by using glamorous words u can not fool people of understanding, are u for real? or are u really trying to fool ppl? let me tell u something! one can never be on straight path or spiritual path unless that path is given by the creator, many people make up their own religions and call it a spiritual path because it seems to them that way but, do they ever ask themselves if the creator is really pleased with their own made up path?..NO! they dnt question them selves infact they just carryon with their own philosophies and make them selves believe they are on spiritual path. The real spiritual path is that is given or shown by the Lord Himself rset are all false. As a muslim i will tell u something that Imam Ali said to a pagan as he Ali was preparing for prayer this pagan came to him and said 'O Ali, what ur doing will not benefit u it iwll only harm u and theres no life after death' then Ali replied 'What i am doing i am doing with my free will no one is forcing me to do it and am happy with it as i know it is from my Lord and, if theres no life after death as u believe then we both will have nothing to loose but, then if there is something after death and i am sure there is the you will have everything to loose'. so my friend and brother in creation we need to find out which is the real path and i hope that now ur not going to say even the satan worshiping is a spiritual path. We seek Allahs guidence and whom He guides none can misguide whom He leaves to misguidence none can guide them, Allah guide those who sincerely ask Him for guidence.


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## daggeroftruth (Sep 19, 2007)

KSKhalsa said:


> Remember GOD in whatever way one can!
> 
> You can say WJKK WJKF or RAM, ALLAH, CHRIST whatever u say, but whenever you are remembering HIM realization of HIS values can bring more near to HIM.
> 
> ...


*KSKHALSA* JI, ur self as a sikh who believes that God is one and He begets not nore He is begotten same as it is in Quran too 
*In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful *
*[112:1]   Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. *
*[112:2]   "The Absolute GOD. *
*[112:3]   "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten. *
*[112:4]   "None equals Him."  . *
*my friend how can u say ram, jesus are names of God or thye're Gods? dnt u see God is not like his creation and theres none like unto him then u say call Him ram jesus or what ever? nah pahjee! thats wrong as u know that ram and jesus were human not god so dnt call God by names of human but by His own glorious names like Ar-Rahman=the most gracious Ar-Raheem=the most foregiving, Khaliq=the creator, Ar-Raziq=the sustainer, Al-wudud=the all loving, qulai shay in qadeer=the powerful do all things. Ram and Jesus or anyone amongst creation are not like him so dnt give His example with creation. Thank u, peace peace peace.*


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## daggeroftruth (Sep 19, 2007)

*Al-Quran 82- The Shattering (Al-Infitaar)*​*In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful *
*[82:1]   When the heaven is shattered. *
*[82:2]   The planets are scattered. *
*[82:3]   The oceans are exploded. *
*[82:4]   The graves are opened. *
*[82:5]   Every soul will find out what caused it to advance, and what caused it to regress. *
*[82:6]   O you human being, what diverted you from your Lord Most Honorable? *
*[82:7]   The One who created you, designed you, and perfected you.*
*[82:8]   In whatever design He chose, He constructed it. *
*[82:9]   Indeed, you disbelieve in the religion. *
*[82:10]   Oblivious to the fact that there are (invisible) keepers around you. *
*[82:11]   They are honest recorders. *
*[82:12]   They record everything you do. *
*[82:13]   Surely, the pious have deserved bliss. *
*[82:14]   While the wicked have deserved Hell. *
*[82:15]   Will incur it on the Day of Judgment. *
*[82:16]   They never leave it. *
*[82:17]   Awesome is the Day of Judgment. *
*[82:18]   What a day; the Day of Judgment! *
*[82:19]   That is the day when no soul can help another soul, and all decisions, on that day, will belong to GOD.*


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## daggeroftruth (Sep 19, 2007)

* peace to seekers of peace, here i post some verse from the holly Quran. If anyone wants to ask any question in private pls email me on daggeroftruth@hotmail.co.uk thank u. peace peace peace.*

*41. Fussilat 
*041.001 Ha. Mim.

041.002 A revelation from the Beneficent, the Merciful,

041.003 A Scripture whereof the verses are expounded, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge,

041.004 Good tidings and a warning. But most of them turn away so that they hear not.

041.005 And they say: Our hearts are protected from that unto which thou (O Muhammad) callest us, and in our ears there is a deafness, and between us and thee there is a veil. Act, then. Lo! we also shall be acting.

041.006 Say (unto them O Muhammad): I am only a mortal like you. It is inspired in me that your God is One God, therefor take the straight path unto Him and seek forgiveness of Him. And woe unto the idolaters,

041.007 Who give not the poor-due, and who are disbelievers in the Hereafter.

041.008 Lo! as for those who believe and do good works, for them is a reward enduring.

041.009 Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals ? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010 He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

041.011 Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

041.012 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

041.013 But if they turn away, then say: I warn you of a thunderbolt like the thunderbolt (which fell of old upon the tribes) of A'ad and Thamud;

041.014 When their messengers came unto them from before them and behind them, saying: Worship none but Allah! they said: If our Lord had willed, He surely would have sent down angels (unto us), so lo! we are disbelievers in that wherewith ye have been sent.

041.015 As for A'ad, they were arrogant in the land without right, and they said: Who is mightier than us in power ? Could they not see that Allah Who created them, He was mightier than them in power ? And they denied Our revelations.

041.016 Therefor We let loose on them a raging wind in evil days, that We might make them taste the torment of disgrace in the life of the world. And verily the doom of the Hereafter will be more shameful, and they will not be helped.

041.017 And as for Thamud, We gave them guidance, but they preferred blindness to the guidance, so the bolt of the doom of humiliation overtook them because of what they used to earn.

041.018 And We delivered those who believed and used to keep their duty to Allah.

041.019 And (make mention of) the day when the enemies of Allah are gathered unto the Fire, they are driven on

041.020 Till, when they reach it, their ears and their eyes and their skins testify against them as to what they used to do.

041.021 And they say unto their skins: Why testify ye against us ? They say: Allah hath given us speech Who giveth speech to all things, and Who created you at the first, and unto Whom ye are returned.

041.022 Ye did not hide yourselves lest your ears and your eyes and your skins should testify against you, but ye deemed that Allah knew not much of what ye did.

041.023 That, your thought which ye did think about your Lord, hath ruined you; and ye find yourselves (this day) among the lost.

041.024 And though they are resigned, yet the Fire is still their home; and if they ask for favour, yet they are not of those unto whom favour can be shown.

041.025 And We assigned them comrades (in the world), who made their present and their past fairseeming unto them. And the Word concerning nations of the jinn and humankind who passed away before them hath effect for them. Lo! they were ever losers.

041.026 Those who disbelieve say: Heed not this Qur'an, and drown the hearing of it; haply ye may conquer.

041.027 But verily We shall cause those who disbelieve to taste an awful doom, and verily We shall requite them the worst of what they used to do.

041.028 That is the reward of Allah's enemies: the Fire. Therein is their immortal home, payment forasmuch as they denied Our revelations.

041.029 And those who disbelieve will say: Our Lord! Show us those who beguiled us of the jinn and humankind. We will place them underneath our feet that they may be among the nethermost.

041.030 Lo! those who say: Our Lord is Allah, and afterward are upright, the angels descend upon them, saying: Fear not nor grieve, but hear good tidings of the paradise which ye are promised.

041.031 We are your protecting friends in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. There ye will have (all) that your souls desire, and there ye will have (all) for which ye pray.

041.032 A gift of welcome from One Forgiving, Merciful.

041.033 And who is better in speech than him who prayeth unto his Lord and doeth right, and saith: Lo! I am of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

041.034 The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend.

041.035 But none is granted it save those who are steadfast, and none is granted it save the owner of great happiness.

041.036 And if a whisper from the devil reach thee (O Muhammad) then seek refuge in Allah. Lo! He is the Hearer, the Knower.

041.037 And of His portents are the night and the day and the sun and the moon. Adore not the sun not the moon; but adore Allah Who created them, if it is in truth Him Whom ye worship.

041.038 But if they are too proud - still those who are with thy Lord glorify Him night and day, and tire not.

041.039 And of His portents (is this): that thou seest the earth lowly, but when We send down water thereon it thrilleth and groweth. Lo! He Who quickeneth it is verily the Quickener of the Dead. Lo! He is Able to do all things.

041.040 Lo! those who distort Our revelations are not hid from Us. Is he who is hurled into the Fire better, or he who cometh secure on the Day of Resurrection ? Do what ye will. Lo! He is Seer of what ye do.

041.041 Lo! those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it cometh unto them (are guilty), for lo! it is an unassailable Scripture.

041.042 Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.

041.043 Naught is said unto thee (Muhammad) save what was said unto the messengers before thee. Lo! thy Lord is owner of forgiveness, and owner (also) of dire punishment.

041.044 And if We had appointed it a Lecture in a foreign tongue they would assuredly have said: If only its verses were expounded (so that we might understand) ? What! A foreign tongue and an Arab ? - Say unto them (O Muhammad): For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; and as for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness for them. Such are called to from afar.

041.045 And We verily gave Moses the Scripture, but there hath been dispute concerning it; and but for a Word that had already gone forth from thy Lord, it would ere now have been judged between them; but lo! they are in hopeless doubt concerning it.

041.046 Whoso doeth right it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong it is against it. And thy Lord is not at all a tyrant to His slaves.

041.047 Unto Him is referred (all) knowledge of the Hour. And no fruits burst forth from their sheaths, and no female carrieth or bringeth forth but with His knowledge. And on the day when He calleth unto them: Where are now My partners ? they will say: We confess unto Thee, not one of us is a witness (for them).

041.048 And those to whom they used to cry of old have failed them, and they perceive they have no place of refuge.

041.049 Man tireth not of praying for good, and if ill toucheth him, then he is disheartened, desperate.

041.050 And verily, if We cause him to taste mercy after some hurt that hath touched him, he will say: This is my own; and I deem not that the Hour will ever rise, and if I am brought back to my Lord, I surely shall be better off with Him - But We verily shall tell those who disbelieve (all) that they did, and We verily shall make them taste hard punishment.

041.051 When We show favour unto man, he withdraweth and turneth aside, but when ill toucheth him then he aboundeth in prayer.

041.052 Bethink you: If it is from Allah and ye reject it - Who is further astray than one who is at open feud (with Allah) ?

041.053 We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things ?

041.054 How! Are they still in doubt about the meeting with their Lord ? Lo! Is not He surrounding all things ?


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## daggeroftruth (Sep 19, 2007)

*46. Winding Sand-tracts (Al-Ahqáf)
*
046.001 Ha. Mim.

046.002 The revelation of the Scripture is from Allah the Mighty, the Wise.

046.003 We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them save with truth, and for a term appointed. But those who disbelieve turn away from that whereof they are warned.

046.004 Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Have ye thought on all that ye invoke beside Allah ? Show me what they have created of the earth. Or have they any portion in the heavens ? Bring me a scripture before this (Scripture), or some vestige of knowledge (in support of what ye say), if ye are truthful.

046.005 And who is further astray than those who, instead of Allah, pray unto such as hear not their prayer until the Day of Resurrection, and are unconscious of their prayer,

046.006 And when mankind are gathered (to the Judgment) will become enemies for them, and will become deniers of having been worshipped.

046.007 And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, those who disbelieve say of the Truth when it reacheth them: This is mere magic.

046.008 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say (O Muhammad): If I have invented it, still ye have no power to support me against Allah. He is Best Aware of what ye say among yourselves concerning it. He sufficeth for a witness between me and you. And He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

046.009 Say: I am no new thing among the messengers (of Allah), nor know I what will be done with me or with you. I do but follow that which is inspired in me, and I am but a plain warner.

046.010 Bethink you: If it is from Allah and ye disbelieve therein, and a witness of the Children of Israel hath already testified to the like thereof and hath believed, and ye are too proud (what plight is yours) ? Lo! Allah guideth not wrong-doing folk.

046.011 And those who disbelieve say of those who believe: If it had been (any) good, they would not have been before us in attaining it. And since they will not be guided by it, they say: This is an ancient lie;

046.012 When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.

046.013 Lo! those who say: Our Lord is Allah, and thereafter walk aright, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

046.014 Such are rightful owners of the Garden, immortal therein, as a reward for what they used to do.

046.015 And We have commended unto man kindness toward parents. His mother beareth him with reluctance, and bringeth him forth with reluctance, and the bearing of him and the weaning of him is thirty months, till, when he attaineth full strength and reacheth forty years, he saith: My Lord! Arouse me that I may give thanks for the favour wherewith Thou hast favoured me and my parents, and that I may do right acceptable unto Thee. And be gracious unto me in the matter of my seed. Lo! I have turned unto Thee repentant, and lo! I am of those who surrender (unto Thee).

046.016 Those are they from whom We accept the best of what they do, and overlook their evil deeds. (They are) among the owners of the Garden. This is the true promise which they were promised (in the world).

046.017 And whoso saith unto his parents: Fie upon you both! Do ye threaten me that I shall be brought forth (again) when generations before me have passed away ? And they twain cry unto Allah for help (and say): Woe unto thee! Believe! Lo! the promise of Allah is true. But he saith: This is naught save fables of the men of old:

046.018 Such are those on whom the Word concerning nations of the jinn and mankind which have passed away before them hath effect. Lo! they are the losers.

046.019 And for all there will be ranks from what they do, that He may pay them for their deeds; and they will not be wronged.

046.020 And on the day when those who disbelieve are exposed to the Fire (it will be said): Ye squandered your good things in the life of the world and sought comfort therein. Now this day ye are rewarded with the doom of ignominy because ye were disdainful in the land without a right, and because ye used to transgress.

046.021 And make mention (O Muhammad) of the brother of A'ad when he warned his folk among the wind-curved sandhills - and verily warners came and went before and after him - saying: Serve none but Allah. Lo! I fear for you the doom of a tremendous Day.

046.022 They said: Hast come to turn us away from our gods ? Then bring upon us that wherewith thou threatenest us, if thou art of the truthful.

046.023 He said: The knowledge is with Allah only. I convey unto you that wherewith I have been sent, but I see you are a folk that know not.

046.024 Then, when they beheld it as a dense cloud coming toward their valleys, they said: Here is a cloud bringing us rain. Nay, but it is that which ye did seek to hasten, a wind wherein is painful torment,

046.025 Destroying all things by commandment of its Lord. And morning found them so that naught could be seen save their dwellings. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.

046.026 And verily We had empowered them with that wherewith We have not empowered you, and had assigned them ears and eyes and hearts; but their ears and eyes and hearts availed them naught since they denied the revelations of Allah; and what they used to mock befell them.

046.027 And verily We have destroyed townships round about you, and displayed (for them) Our revelation, that haply they might return.

046.028 Then why did those whom they had chosen for gods as a way of approach (unto Allah) not help them ? Nay, but they did fail them utterly. And (all) that was their lie, and what they used to invent.

046.029 And when We inclined toward thee (Muhammad) certain of the jinn, who wished to hear the Qur'an and, when they were in its presence, said: Give ear! and, when it was finished, turned back to their people, warning.

046.030 They said: O our people! Lo! we have heard a scripture which hath been revealed after Moses, confirming that which was before it, guiding unto the truth and a right road.

046.031 O our people! respond to Allah's summoner and believe in Him. He will forgive you some of your sins and guard you from a painful doom.

046.032 And whoso respondeth not to Allah's summoner he can nowise escape in the earth, and he hath no protecting friends instead of Him. Such are in error manifest.

046.033 Have they not seen that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and was not wearied by their creation, is Able to give life to the dead ? Aye, He verily is Able to do all things.

046.034 And on the day when those who disbelieve are exposed to the Fire (they will be asked): Is not this real ? They will say: Yea, by our Lord. He will say: Then taste the doom for that ye disbelieved.

046.035 Then have patience (O Muhammad) even as the stout of heart among the messengers (of old) had patience, and seek not to hasten on (the doom) for them. On the day when they see that which they are promised (it will seem to them) as though they had tarried but an hour of daylight. A clear message. Shall any be destroyed save evil-living folk ?
daggeroftruth@hotmail.co.uk​


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## Satyaban (Jun 11, 2009)

Daggeroftruth
I don't understand why you are here. Sikhism is not a religion of the book so why are you here. Are you here to gain an understanding of Sikhs or some other reason. Your last posts came off heavey handed. Your faith isn't the only path to truth so don't drill me on the Koran and denigrate my faith.

OM SHANTI SHANTI


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## spnadmin (Jun 11, 2009)

Satyaban ji

Thanks for the reminder to the preaching  types. The post is a couple of years old and somehow we missed it in the interfaith dialogs section of the forum. I appreciate your reminder because who knows how many people read this and wondered as you did why it is here and what the point of it was. 

Many Thanks,
Antonia


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## Josh martin (Jul 8, 2009)

question:
Is God only lead to by religions?


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## Sinister (Jul 8, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> question:
> Is God only lead to by religions?


 
i sure hope not

"truth is a pathless land" -krishnamurthi


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## kds1980 (Jul 8, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> question:
> Is God only lead to by religions?



God can be led by without religion.But a spiritual path needs a religion for its survival O/W the other religions surrounding that path will devour it.


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## Josh martin (Jul 8, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> God can be led by without religion.But a spiritual path needs a religion for its survival O/W the other religions surrounding that path will devour it.



Spiritual path is something made by us on earth vs something prophets/avatars show us? 
Religions are above spiritual paths and are able to devour them?
hmm

Sticking to topic: Better question is are religions needed to lead to GOD?


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2009)

ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਪਰਾਨੀ ॥ 
aapan keeaa kashhoo n hovai kiaa ko karai paraanee ||
By one's own efforts, nothing is done. What can the mere mortal accomplish?

 ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥੩॥ 
jaa this bhaavai sathigur bhaettai eaeko naam bakhaanee ||3||
When it pleases the Lord, the mortal meets the True Guru, and chants the Name of the One Lord. ||3||


Ang 1124, Sant Kabir


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 8, 2009)

thanks 

i was also going to post just the same


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 8, 2009)

I think the question is more complex that what the original poster posted.
When you say God what kind of God do you mean?
One of the Egyptian Gods? Greek? Roman?Hindu? Christian? Muslim? Sikh? Alien? XYZ?...

There are soo many of them! Which God are we trying to reach?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 8, 2009)

Bhagat ji

Your God


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 8, 2009)

Are all religions seriously trying to reach my God? lol


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 8, 2009)

yes...and sometimes Mine...and sometime Aman ji's


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 8, 2009)

and before we proceed Bhagat ji,

can you define your God?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 8, 2009)

<double post>


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## Satyaban (Jul 8, 2009)

Wow Huck: Are you and ****** Jim still on that raft, just a little joke, but as far as my understanding goes there is only one Creator. So I hope that issue is settled for you unless you have a greater understanding I am unaware of.

Om shanti Om
Satyaban


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 9, 2009)

Satyaban ji

how do you know that there is only ONE creator?

any proof?


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## Lee (Jul 9, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> Satyaban ji
> 
> how do you know that there is only ONE creator?
> 
> any proof?


 

It stands to reason.  All holy scripture is clear on this point, even thoses seemingly pantheitic religions say that all Gods are merely differant aspects of the one.


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## Astroboy (Jul 9, 2009)

In Jaap Sahib (Chachree Chand Tav Prasad), Guru Gobind Singh says,

Anek Hai, Phir Ek Hai.

Meaning: You are many - countless by being in all, yet You are alone.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 9, 2009)

namjap ji

read the lines you posted without the translation and go over it again


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## Josh martin (Jul 9, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> Satyaban ji
> 
> how do you know that there is only ONE creator?
> 
> any proof?



Oo I am interested. Wut kind of proof are we talking about? His existance or One-ness or his himness? Are you asking me If i believe he exists or to show it to you that he does.

just curious wut religion/belief are you?

Also naam ji, I am with huck on that re-read suggestion.


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## Astroboy (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes Tom Sawyer's best friend, I have read it three times without the translation. 
So it's pointless to give another translation. Just be happy reading bani without understanding it!!
Do you read the daily newspaper without understanding it's content.

Btw, whose idea is it that religions lead one to God?

Can you define:-
Who you are ? (physical body - food for the worms ; or the invisible consciousness - the metaphorical swan)
Can you define God? (Personal God - Krishna, Ram Chander, Jesus, Odin, Jupiter; or the Mool Mantar defined God)
Can you define whether religion creates a noble man; or a group of noble men create religion?


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

namjap said:


> Yes Tom Sawyer's best friend, I have read it three times without the translation.
> So it's pointless to give another translation. Just be happy reading bani without understanding it!!
> Do you read the daily newspaper without understanding it's content.



We aren't accusing you, Or we would have yelled at your or flamed. We were under the impression maybe you were unaware of the miss-interpretation.

Btw, whose idea is it that religions lead one to God?[quote

Not sure, But I proposed " Is God only lead to by Religions?"


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 10, 2009)

namjap said:


> In Jaap Sahib (Chachree Chand Tav Prasad), Guru Gobind Singh says,
> 
> Anek Hai, Phir Ek Hai.
> 
> Meaning: You are many - countless by being in all, yet You are alone.


"Countless by being in all" ?????
you just added that in didn't you? :rofl!!:


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> *We* aren't accusing you, Or *we* would have yelled at your or flamed. We were under the impression maybe you were unaware of the miss-interpretation.
> 
> Btw, whose idea is it that religions lead one to God?[quote
> 
> Not sure, But I proposed " Is God only lead to by Religions?"



Josh ji

Who is *we? *I was under the impression that you were speaking as an individual. In this thread and in others.


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Josh ji
> 
> Who is *we? *I was under the impression that you were speaking as an individual. In this thread and in others.



*gently pats Kaur ji' on the back*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 11, 2009)

<<Yes Tom Sawyer's best friend, I have read it three times without the translation. 
So it's pointless to give another translation. Just be happy reading bani without understanding it!!>>>

i almost meant that. Rote translations rarely work. 

<<Do you read the daily newspaper without understanding it's content.>>

you cannot read without understanding(atleast literally). You have to ANALYZE to make sense of the news , as they affect you.

<<Btw, whose idea is it that religions lead one to God?>>

not mine, and i don't know that "anything" that leads us to God. If i knew, i wouldn't be posting here.

Can you define:-
Who you are ? (physical body - food for the worms ; or the invisible consciousness - the metaphorical swan)

Wowbagger , pun intended  

same answer Namjap ji.

>>Can you define God? (Personal God - Krishna, Ram Chander, Jesus, Odin, Jupiter; or the Mool Mantar defined God)>>

No. Many tried and failed. So why try?

heck, why not 

God is what you want God to be.


<<Can you define whether religion creates a noble man; or a group of noble men create religion?>>

i don't know the definition of "noble", there are multiple in dictionary.

can you please help.

I will try to answer based on the meaning used by you.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 11, 2009)

Why do we need God?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 11, 2009)

<<Why do we need God?>>

how can you be sure that you really need or don't need?


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 11, 2009)

True 
Here's where iam coming from:
The topic is Do all religions lead to God?

Why should we go towards this God? What evidence is there for this thing anyway? Are we randomly leading ourselves nowhere through religion? :shutup:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 11, 2009)

*TO BECOME A BETTER PERSON IS THE GOAL OF ALL FAITHS*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 

ਜੇ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਚੰਗਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਿ ਪੁੰਨਹੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਈਐ ॥ 

_                                                                         Je loṛėh cẖanga āpṇā kar punnhu nīcẖ saḏā▫ī▫ai._​ 
If you yearn for goodness, then perform good deeds and feel humble.
                                                                        Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-16​ 
The tenets of all faiths in general are supposed to teach every one the principles for becoming a better person but they have become more involved in controlling the followers by institutionalizing their faith. While one is thinking about getting rid of his/her faults, flaws, and character defects, one should also be concentrating upon developing positive traits. Guru Nanak expresses his views in Raag Maru;

ਪਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਨਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਸਚਿ ਖਰਾ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੇ ॥

_Parvirṯī narviraṯ pacẖẖāṇai.Gur kai sang sabaḏ gẖar jāṇai. Kis hī manḏā ākẖ na cẖalai sacẖ kẖarā sacẖi¬ārā hė._ 

One who realizes what he has to possess, and what he has to abandon, associating with the Guru, comes to know the Word of the Sabd, in his self. Those who do not call anyone bad in life are true and judged to be genuine by the True Akal Purkh. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1027-11

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After developing a positive attitude with an open mind, acknowledging one’s character defects and praying to “Akal Purkh” for their removal and subduing the lower instincts of lust, anger, greed, attachment, and vanity, one is ready for developing some positive traits. These traits are pre-requisites for the development of the virtues or higher instincts. There is a battle that goes on inside people. The battle is between two things;

1. Evil.

2. Good.

Evil is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
Good is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The question is which one wins?

*“The one you feed”*

To make positive traits as a second nature of you is to practice them says Ravidas;

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਖਲਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਹਮ ਸਹਰੀ ਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

_Kahi Raviḏās kẖalās cẖamārā. Jo ham sahrī so mīṯ hamārā._ 

Says Ravidas, the emancipated shoe-maker: whoever is a citizen there, is a friend of mine. -----Ravidas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 345-16

Other examples;

1. Smile at the check-out counter in the supermarket and others you come across each day.

2. Say “Good morning” to the bus driver or the people you encounter.

3. Don’t explode if your children muddy the carpet.

4. Greet your late arriving spouse with a joke rather than a nasty epithet (Egg head).

5. Try to judge you’re self rather than others says Guru Angad in Raag Majh;

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਖੇ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤਾ ਪਾਰਖੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਰੋਗੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਦੋਵੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਤਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

_Nānak parkẖė āp ka¬o ṯā pārakẖ jāṇ. Rog ḏārū ḏovai bujẖai ṯā vaiḏ sujāṇ._

O Nanak, if someone judges himself, only then is he known as a real judge. If someone understands both the disease and the medicine, only then is he a wise physician. -----Guru Angad, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 148-8

The more you try to be pleasant, humble, think positively rather than negatively, turn to humor instead of anger; it will make the behavior more natural and attractive. If you continue to act like a really honest, humble, and nice person, you will be one before you know it and will be surrounded by others in appreciation. 

ਮਿਠਤੁ ਨੀਵੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਤਤੁ ॥

_Miṯẖaṯ nīvī nānkā guṇ cẖang¬ā¬ī¬ā ṯaṯ._

Sweetness and humility, O Nanak, are the essence of virtues and goodness.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 470-13

One should take a personal inventory daily. The kind of honest tally of events and feelings allows you to analyze your actions after the emotions of the moment have subsided.

*TIPS FOR TAKING DAILY INVENTORY*

Ask your self the following questions as you look back on each day:

1. Did I have a plan for the day, and did I follow it?

2. With whom did I spend most of the time?

3. Did I take time to work on my spirituality?

4. Where did I spend most of the time?

5. What was the quality of the judgments I made?

6. Did any thing threaten my serenity today? What?

7. Did I feel my attitude toward humanity was constructive today?

8. Was I honest in all my dealings?

9. Have I been fair in all my interaction with the others?

10. Were there situations today, where I was wrong or unreasonable? 

11. Did I make amends?

12. What good things happened? How did I react to them?

13. Did any bad things happen? What were they? How did I react?

14. What do I feel I have accomplished this day? 

15. What would I have liked to do that I did not do? What would I have done differently?

REMEMBER THE FIVE RULES TO KEEP YOURSELF HAPPY 

1. Free your heart from hatred. 

2. Free your mind from worries. 

3. Live simply. 

4. Give more. 

5. Expect less.

SHARING, GIVING, AND RECEIVING should be the motto. One cannot receive until and unless one gives. Guru Nanak in Raag Sarang advises on sharing your food with others earned by hard and honest labor.

ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥

_Ghall Khaie Kich Hathun Day; Nanak Raah Pachaneh Say._

The person, who earns through hard work, and then gives away some in charity, has realized the true path of light. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1245-19

However Guru Arjan cautions in Raag Gauri about good deeds and pride;

ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਨੇ ॥ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਬਾਲੂ ਨੀਰਿ ਬਹਾਵਨੇ ॥ 

_Ahaŉ¬buḏẖ karam kamāvanė. Garih bālū nīr bahāvanė._

Good deeds done in the pride of ego are swept away, like the house of sand by water.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 211-3 

In short, banish pride, worldly love, and envy. Bear not ill-will toward the others, so others would not bear ill will towards you. Walk humbly and speak civilly to all.

ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ॥ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰ ਪਾਏ॥

_Bhaou Bhagat Kar Neech Sada-ay, Taou Nanak Mokhantar Pa-ay._

Through loving devotional worship and by abiding in humility, O Nanak, salvation is attained. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 470-8

Guru Amardas ponders on trust in Raag Sarang;

ਪਰਾਈ ਅਮਾਣ ਕਿਉ ਰਖੀਐ ਦਿਤੀ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਥੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

_Parā¬ī amāṇ ki¬o rakẖī¬ai ḏiṯī hī sukẖ ho¬ė.Gur kā sabaḏ gur thai tikai hor thai pargat na ho¬ė._ 

Why keep what is held in trust for another? By giving it back, peace is found The Word of the Guru's Sabd rests in the Guru; it does not appear through anyone else. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1249-9

Guru Nanak in Raag Malar gives the examples about the association of the lower instincts obstructing the way of goodness;

ਰੂਪੈ ਕਾਮੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੁਖੈ ਸਾਦੈ ਗੰਢੁ ॥ ਲਬੈ ਮਾਲੈ ਘੁਲਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਮਿਚਲਿ ਊਂਘੈ ਸਉੜਿ ਪਲੰਘੁ ॥ ਭੰਉਕੈ ਕੋਪੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ਹੋਇ ਫਕੜੁ ਪਿਟੇ ਅੰਧੁ ॥ ਚੁਪੈ ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਗੰਧੁ ॥ 

_Roopai Kaamai Dosti Bhukhai Saadai Gandh, Labai Maalai Ghul Mil Michal OoNghai Sa-urh Palangh, BhaNukai Kop Khu-aar Ho-ay Fakarh Pitay AnDh, Chupai Changa Nankaa Vin Naavai Muhi GanDh._

Beauty and sexual desire are friends just as hunger and tasty food are tied together. Greed motivates the search for wealth. One who is drowsy can sleep will use even a tiny space as his bed. Anger barks and brings ruin on oneself, if one is blindly pursuing useless conflicts. It is good to be silent. O Nanak, without the Name, one's mouth spews forth only filth. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1288-13

Kabir cautions everyone not to override the warning of his conscience before doing any- thing in his Slokes:

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਸਭ ਬਾਤ ਜਾਨਤ ਹੀ ਅਉਗਨੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ਕਾਹੇ ਕੀ ਕੁਸਲਾਤ ਹਾਥਿ ਦੀਪੁ ਕੂਏ ਪਰੈ ॥

_Kabīr man jānai sabẖ bāṯ jānaṯ hī a¬ugan karai.Kāhė kī kuslāṯ hāth ḏīp kū¬ė parai._

Kabir, the mortal knows everything, and knowing, he still makes mistakes. What good is a lamp in one’s hand, if he falls in to well? -----Kabir Sloke, 216, AGGS, Page, 1376

*Conclusion:*

There are three types of persons: those, who confess their own faults and mention the excellence of others, are the highest type. Those who highlight their own excellence and decry the faults of others are worse. Those, who parade their own faults as excellence and deride the excellence in others as faults, are the worst. People of the last type seem to rule the day in our time. Guru Nanak in Japji, Page, 2-13 leaves up to Akal Purkh’s Grace despite one’s efforts;

ਜੇ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਆਰਜਾ ਹੋਰ ਦਸੂਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਵਾ ਖੰਡਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥ ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥

_Jė jug cẖārė ārjā hor ḏasūṇī ho&shy;ė. Navā kẖanda vicẖ jāṇī&shy;ai nāl cẖalai sabẖ ko&shy;ė. Cẖanga nā&shy;o rakẖā&shy;ė kai jas kīraṯ jag lė&shy;ė. Jė ṯis naḏar na āvī ṯa vāṯ na pucẖẖai kė. Kītā anḏar kīt kar ḏosī ḏos ḏẖarė. Nānak nirguṇ guṇ karė guṇvanṯi&shy;ā guṇ ḏė. Ŧėhā ko&shy;ė na sujẖ&shy;ī je ṯis guṇ ko&shy;ė karė._ 

Even if you could live throughout the four ages, or even ten times more, and even if you were known throughout the nine continents and followed by all, with a good name and reputation, with praise and fame throughout the world- still, if the Akal Purkh does not bless you with Its Glance of Grace, then who cares? What is the use? Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt. O Nanak, God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous. No one can even imagine anyone who can bestow virtue upon God. 


Virinder S.Grewal


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## JimRinX (Jul 11, 2009)

All the Good jis who've commented so far.
While it is wrong, in my opnion, to say that, "All religions will lead you to God" it _would be _completely appropriate to say that, "God led his children to ALL Religions"!!!
To you, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji; you are right to be Proud ofthe Sikh Gurus - and for the reasons you stated; for while many teach 'tolerence', and espouse the idea that if a Faith is 'True' than there will be no need to 'convert' others to it, as that Very Truth will draw Good People to said Faith like a moth to a flame, very few have 'put their money where there mouths are' like the Sikh Gurus!
To you, Wanderer2369 ji, I say - you're Right! Martin Luther was the Best Thing to happen to Christianity since Nestorius! Though I do not believe in much of what Christianity teaches; especially the just plain wrong idea that 'sin' - or Bad Karma - can somehow be 'absolved', or the idea that Jesus did this by 'allowing himself to be killed' - as that act, in my opnion (see next paragraph to learn where I get them!), was an attempt by Jesus to demonstrate the FACT of Reincarnation, by comming back in the same body (just as our Clear Light/Soul/Atman does in a _different _body); I would have to agree that Protestantism is a close to the Dharma as any of them get - and it's because of a certain Mennonite Preacher friend, and his vitrioloc eviscerations of 'Evangelicism' and the 'Vulgate Bible', that I say this!

When I communed with Om/Brahma/Ahura Mazda/The Great White Spirit/The Clear Light Deity Entity that caused a white streak to appear in my hair ('It' does indeed have many names!), and it saw the doubt in my mind - which was a 'leftover' from my Catholic upbringing, despite my having been a Buddhist for almost ten years, at that time - it showed me many things to set the record straight for me; and the most important part of what I saw, was how each of the religions that I knew about - whether I respected them or not - had, at one time, been influenced by somebody else who'd also communed with Hirm (they had all grown from a 'Dharma Seed'), and how Men/Kings/Priests/Madmen had, bit-by-bit, corrupted the Dharma-based beliefs that the foundational Prophet/Messiah/Guru had originally taught.
We'd all be wiser and better off if we understood that better.


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## Josh martin (Jul 11, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> God is what you want God to be.


*Johnny cash - Personal Jesus 
*

YouTube - Johnny cash - Personal jesus

Fin, your thinking process seems to me to be, big surprise(pun), athiest/rational etc.
Religions are usually based on beliefs not science 


That said, I find huge similarties in your and my own thinking. Most of the stuff you have said is what I would say.

waiting for ur answer


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 12, 2009)

Josh

I am not an Athiest 

i am very sure of that.

chill and have an ice cream:ice:


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## Astroboy (Jul 12, 2009)

Let's ponder on the lamp. If one lite the lamp, there are two             flames, one in the first watch and the other in the second             watch. In one sense             it is not the same flame, but in another sense it is the same flame.             It burns the same kind of oil, it emits the same kind of light, and             it serves the same purpose. would you call those flames             the same that have burned yesterday and are burning now in the same             lamp, filled with the same kind of oil, illuminating the same             room?

Suppose the flame of the first watch             had been extinguished during the second watch, would you call it the             same if it burns again in the third watch?

In one sense it is a different flame, in another it is             not.
Has the time that elapsed during             the extinction of the flame anything to do with its identity or             non-identity?

Well, then, we agree that the flame of today is in a             certain sense the same as the flame of yesterday, and in another             sense it is different at every moment. Moreover, the flames of the             same kind, illuminating with equal power the same kind of rooms, are             in a certain sense the same.

Now, suppose there is a man who             feels like thyself, thinks like thyself, and acts like thyself, is             he not the same man as thou?

Dost thou deny that the same logic holds             good for thyself that holds good for the things of the world?



> Can you define:-
> Who you are ? (physical body - food for the worms ; or the invisible consciousness - the metaphorical swan)
> Can you define God? (Personal God - Krishna, Ram Chander, Jesus, Odin, Jupiter; or the Mool Mantar defined God)
> Can you define whether religion creates a noble man; or a group of noble men create religion?


Dost thou deny that the same logic holds             good for thyself that holds good for the things of the world?

There may be another man who feels             exactly like me, thinks like me, and acts like me; suppose even he             had the same name and the same kind of possessions, he would not be             myself.

Where is thy             self?
Now which is thy true self, that of             yesterday, that of today, or that of tomorrow?

Excerpts from : http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_3.htm


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## Josh martin (Jul 12, 2009)

namjap said:


> Suppose the flame of the first watch             had been extinguished during the second watch, would you call it the             same if it burns again in the third watch?



Same flame different purposes. Krishna's 10 avatars, different purposes.

[qoute]In one sense it is a different flame, in another it is             not.
Has the time that elapsed during             the extinction of the flame anything to do with its identity or             non-identity?[/quote]
Same flame, new oil?(shooting blinds here)
Flame stays the same, perhaps the time it is ignited again, changes, aka settings change.



> Well, then, we agree that the flame of today is in a             certain sense the same as the flame of yesterday, and in another             sense it is different at every moment. Moreover, the flames of the             same kind, illuminating with equal power the same kind of rooms, are             in a certain sense the same.


Good examples of flame, how does one connect with this flame? if one is disconnected.



> Now, suppose there is a man who             feels like thyself, thinks like thyself, and acts like thyself, is             he not the same man as thou?


Man will be like myself, but not myself. He might be another similar drop in the ocean, but once drop merges in the ocean it looses its identity. Only same man example i know is Guru/chela in sikhi. One jote, two deh/sharir/bodies.




> Where is thy             self?
> Now which is thy true self, that of             yesterday, that of today, or that of tomorrow?


Same bodies, clothes change. Satyug rath sach ka, Sat aga rathvaho. Satyug was chariot of truth and lead by Sat. dvapur rath, treta rath, Kaliyug rath agni ka, koor ag rathvahos. In long run, true self is only who's foundation is in the truth. For truth lives on, self lives on in truth. 

what did I miss?

Excerpts from : World Mysteries - Near Death Experience, Life After Death & Reincarnation[/quote]


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## Josh martin (Jul 12, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> Josh
> 
> I am not an Athiest
> 
> ...



I just find outstanding! or standing out similarities between us. Is huck finn ur real name ? ur religion? profile? Something you wanna discuss oO


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 12, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> I just find outstanding! or standing out similarities between us. Is huck finn ur real name ? ur religion? profile? Something you wanna discuss oO



Josh,

Guru Fateh.

Why don't you share about yourself with us first. You mentioned in your earlier posts that you were a Sikh then later on, it seems you have changed your mind.

So, being truthful is not part of your faith?

Come clean. and I also asked you before , what is your Sikh name? Why are you afraid of sharing that?

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 12, 2009)

Josh ji,

My religion?

i really don't know what to answer because it does not matter - to me or to forum members.


there is a saying - Spirit does not have names :}{}{}:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 12, 2009)

namjap ji

i just lit a lamp and am pondering over it.

i think i have hard time understanding the mysterious abstract, i will experiment and get back to you.


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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

*Ang 694*

ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਬਾਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਤੇਲੁ ਲੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਸਾਰੇ  ॥
नामु तेरा दीवा नामु तेरो बाती नामु तेरो तेलु ले माहि पसारे ॥
Nām ṯerā ḏīvā nām ṯero bāṯī nām ṯero ṯel le māhi pasāre.
Your Name is the lamp, and Your Name is the wick. Your Name is the oil I pour into it.

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ਭਇਓ ਉਜਿਆਰੋ ਭਵਨ ਸਗਲਾਰੇ  ॥੨॥नाम तेरे की जोति लगाई भइओ उजिआरो भवन सगलारे ॥२॥
Nām ṯere kī joṯ lagā▫ī bẖa▫i▫o uji▫āro bẖavan saglāre. ||2||
Your Name is the light applied to this lamp, which enlightens and illuminates the entire world. ||2||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 13, 2009)

namjap ji

is this shabd in continuation of the earlier post you made?


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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

The philosophy of Naam cannot be explained in words. 
A mere talk on Naam is not helpful at all, 
for the Naam can only be contacted through an inner experience. 

The Kingdom of God cometh not by observation. 
The Kingdom of God 
  is within you.
           CHRIST


AMRIT or Aab-i-Hayat or Maha Ras is the elixir of life, 
or whoever partakes of it gets everlasting life and escapes forever from 
the otherwise interminable round of births and deaths. 
The sages and seers wandered in quest of It,
but nowhere in the wide world were they able to find It. 
Is It then a chimera or mirage ? The saints in reply have repeatedly said that Amrit is something real and solid.
It is the Water of Immortality, which lies hidden and buried within the depths of the soul,
encrusted with the dust of ages, and may be delved into even now and rediscovered,
if one has the patience to do as he is bidden. 
    In the scriptures of the various religions we come across references to the sacred Water of Life.
The Muslim divines describe It as Aab-Haiwan or Aab-i-Hayat and always suggested Its use to the world-weary pilgrims.
It is also called Chasma-i-Kausar. The Hindu scriptures call It Mansarover or the Pool of Nectar (Amritsar), 
which if tasted would grant life everlasting. In the Vedas we read of It as Soma Ras,
which granted Cosmic Awareness or Universal Consciousness to the Rishis and the Munis 
who partook of It in ages long ago. The saints generally call It Amritsar or the pool or the fount of Nectar. 
Christ often spoke of It as the Water of Life. And let him that is athirst come, and whosoever will, 
  let him take the Water of Life freely. Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him 
  shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him 
  shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. 
                                                                                                               CHRIST​In the Holy Bible, it is stated that Christ used to bring the dead to life.
 At one place, he is said to have administered this Water of Life to a Samaritan lady. 
From all this it is abundantly clear that Christ freely made use of this Water of Life in treating the ills of mankind.
 And very often he refers to the Voice of God as well.For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, 
  and we shall be changed. 
                                ST. PAUL 

When the dead shall hear the Voice of the Son of God: 
  and they that hear shall live. 
                                          CHRIST​By these means, he is said to have redeemed no less than one hundred forty and four thousand souls.      
The Rishis and Munis or the holy men of old and even the saints in comparatively recent times tasted of the Water of Life 
and made their followers drink from the great fountainhead. 

Amrit: What It is 
    From a careful study of the scriptures, we learn that the Water of Life or the Nectar is 
nothing but the Word or Logos of Christ; Naam or Shabd of the saints; 
Kalma of the Muslims; and Nad of the Vedic Rishis. 

The Word of God is the elixir of life and is a panacea for all the ills of the world; 
Bhikhan says, It is with the Grace of the Guru that one finds a Way to Salvation. 
                                                                                                                                            BHIKHAN


For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, 
  to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 
                                                                                                                                                    ST. PAUL 

Thy Word is a Lamp unto my feet, and a Light unto my Path. 
                                                                                          THE PSALMS


Pure is the Light and Soma Juice is the Word, 
A contact with them grants a selfless life of everlasting bliss. 
                                                                                               GURU ARJAN


The divine ambrosia can be had by inversion and not anywhere in the world outside. 
One can find It only if one transcends into the spiritual regions above the physical body. 
A draught of the Water of Immortality is enough to grant life everlasting to the individual. 
In order to reach the Hauz-i-Kausar or the pool of nectar, one has to dig deep into the human self. 
    The human body is the temple of God wherein dwell both the soul and the Over-soul. 
This temple has quite a number of instruments through which the Self within works in the physical plane without. 
These instruments may be likened to doors and windows through which the soul and the mind go out into the world 
in search of worldly pleasures. But the soul itself is imprisoned in the body and knows no way to escape therefrom. 
The body has nine visible portals: two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, mouth, rectum and the generative organ. 
So long as the spirit remains absorbed in the sensory pleasures, it cannot have an access to the Heavenly regions and, 
therefore, cannot taste the elixir of life. Besides these nine outlets there is a hidden spring-door behind the center of the eyes. 
When the spirit, by means of concentration, is gathered up at this center, 
it becomes qualified for ingress into higher realms with all the spiritual heritage therein. 

Naam or Word: AMRIT - Water or Nectar of Life


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 13, 2009)

now i am confused.

completely


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 13, 2009)




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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

> Good examples of flame, how does one connect with this flame? if one is disconnected.


Put the maryada before the self and the door will open within for you to become the Khalsa. 

It is the inner Light that makes one Khalsa, or the Pure One. When does a man become pure? 
The scriptures tell us in this context: "When one gets into contact with the inner Light in Its fullness, 
then alone one becomes pure; otherwise, not." Guru Gobind Singh speaking of Himself says:Khalsa is my own form, and I reside in the Khalsa
​Similarly, in the Revelation it is said: 
"Those see the Power of God Who have the Father's Name written in Their foreheads."

True devotion consists of the manifestation of the Light within and of the inner Music. 
And whosoever succeeds in this process is true to himself, 
no matter if he is a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, or a Sikh, or anything else.


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2009)

The author is





*Kirpal  Singh**1894  - 1974
* *His Mission: "To  fill the human heart with compassion, mercy  and universal  love, which should radiate to all countries, nations and peoples of the  world. To make a true religion of the heart as the ruling factor in  one's  life. To enable each one to love God, love all, serve all, and have  respect  for all, as God is immanent in all forms. My goal is that of oneness. I  spread the message of oneness in life and living. This is the way to  peace  on earth. This is the mission of my life, and I pray that it may be  fulfilled."
*
​ 
*This  website  is a service of (and contact info for): Ruhani Satsang USA

*And obviously Kirpal Singh ji finds God as immanent in all forms. But does this message of oneness in life and living address the question Do all religions lead to God? Some have made the argument that religions lead us away from God.  BTW what is meant by "God?" Doesn't the answer to that question determine how the thread question can be answered, and how it cannot be addressed? No one has asked What is meant by God? so far. What happens if there are 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or more answers and they are just different enough to make the thread question unanswerable?  What happens to the idea of Oneness if there are 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or more answers to the question, What is meant by God? Which One (of the lot) is immanent in me? Just a thought. These are not easy discussions. *
*


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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

Narayanjot Ji,

Ruhanisatsang has some wonderful topics but as always, they misinterprete gurbani by giving importance to a living guru. 
This is not the way of mainstream Sikhism. 
So it is necessary to re-interprete those particular words which create a false image of a true guru. 

How can Kirpal Singh be author of all the gurbani stated by him?
How can he be author of all the other scriptue references he has made?


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2009)

Kirpal Singh was initiatied by his guru Baba Sawan Singh, of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, into Surat Shabd Yoga which is also known as  Sant Mat. Just so we are clear that these ideas arrise in the RadhaSoami tradition.


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2009)

namjap said:


> Narayanjot Ji,
> 
> Ruhanisatsang has some wonderful topics but as always, they misinterprete gurbani by giving importance to a living guru.
> This is not the way of mainstream Sikhism.
> ...




Well namjap ji -- I guess I am in agreement with you. If there are all these viewpoints -- none have been examined to see just how consistent they are with each other -- then I am still left with my questions. Sorry if I sound like a broken record.

And obviously Kirpal Singh ji finds God as immanent in all forms. But does this message of oneness in life and living address the question Do all religions lead to God? Some have made the argument that religions lead us away from God. BTW what is meant by "God?" Doesn't the answer to that question determine how the thread question can be answered, and how it cannot be addressed? No one has asked What is meant by God? so far. What happens if there are 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or more answers and they are just different enough to make the thread question unanswerable? What happens to the idea of Oneness if there are 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or more answers to the question, What is meant by God? Which One (of the lot) is immanent in me? Just a thought. These are not easy discussions. *
*


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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

> Same bodies, clothes change. Satyug rath sach ka, Sat aga rathvaho. Satyug was chariot of truth and lead by Sat. dvapur rath, treta rath, Kaliyug rath agni ka, koor ag rathvahos. In long run, true self is only who's foundation is in the truth. For truth lives on, self lives on in truth.
> 
> what did I miss?



Josh martin Ji,

You have a remarkable philosophy deep within you. Possibly molded by past life karma.


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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

> namjap ji
> 
> is this shabd in continuation of the earlier post you made?


“Music creates order out of chaos: for rhythm imposes unanimity upon the divergent, 
melody imposes *continuity* upon the disjointed, 
and harmony imposes compatibility upon the incongruous”




Yehudi Menuhin quotes

There is music and rythm and melody and harmony in every civilisation that ever existed.
“Love must be as much a light, as it is a *flame*.”
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Henry David Thoreau


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 13, 2009)

Rabbi David Wolpe: Cuz religion is a path to God.
Sam Harris: What are you calling God? Where is God?
Rabbi David Wolpe: God is...the intagible creator of the universe in whose presence a human being can live and in according to whose dictates or will a human being can live in this world. 
... continued here:YouTube - Sam Harris makes a joke and a point


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2009)

Bhagat ji

In your post above this statement by Rabbi Volpe *Rabbi David Wolpe: God is...the intagible creator of the universe in whose presence a human being can live and in according to whose dictates or will a human being can live in this world.
*
Now I don't have any problem at all with that sentence as it stands. That is the same One that is Immanent in me too. The problem is that when the discussion of "God" continues it invariably goes on to include MORE. And MORE often has elements that I don't feel inside and definitely do NOT want to feel inside me. Of course depending on the path* -- and Sikhism's Akaal Purakh never alarms me.
*


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## Astroboy (Jul 13, 2009)

Abraham Lincoln:	 	         When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad.  That's my religion.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 13, 2009)

what is good or bad?


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## Sinister (Jul 13, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> what is good or bad?


 

anything that increases complexity of a closed system is good

anything that decreases complexity of a closed system is bad


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2009)

What is it when something increases the complexity of an open system?


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## Sinister (Jul 13, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> What is it when something increases the complexity of an open system?


 
it would be neither good nor bad

first off, the overall complexity of an open system cannot be measured. thus change in complexity cannot be measured. making the question itself invalid.

extrapolating...good or bad cannot be defined in an open system...good or bad would not exist in an open system.


Aside: some may argue that the sum of our interactions is a closed system...because we can communicate with only a finite amount of people....many may argue that the universe is a closed system. inconclusively.


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2009)

Sinister ji

I like that reply.  Going with the force -- open systems, their unmeasurable complexity, their inability to calibrate good and bad -- questions that are invalid because the variables cannot be demonstrated with statistical probability - all of that excites me. SPN is almost like that. :happy: Or on second thought, maybe not.

Maybe what you have just described is sehaj:meditation::meditation::meditation: You have to float!


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## Satyaban (Jul 13, 2009)

Jeez closed system , open system, ajar systems, betting systems, whatever systems pshaw we can really make things complicated so we forget the question. What was the question, "What is good and what is bad?" The answer for me is incredibly simple, there is no good or bad there just is. Yup that's it.
Let me give you an example:
Bob is a printer and has a job at a fine company. John is also a printer in the same town with a family and has been out of work for nine months and hasn't been able to find another job in his trade. On a Tuesday Bob has a very bad car accident and will never be a printer again. On the following Thursday John not knowing of the accident applies for Bob's job and gets it.
Was Bob's accident good or bad or good and bad or a push.
We as humans can only see the tiniest glimpse of the picture so we want to jump to a conclusion based on how we think we are affected. When we step back and say it is God we see it differently. When we read of a huge earthquake while filled with compassion we must say it is Shiva or God or Allah or Jim if that is the name you choose to use. But it is God and there is no question to be asked. No good no bad it just is just divine.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 13, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> What is it when something increases the complexity of an open system?



Narayanjot ji,

Guru fateh.

Open system means to break the walls of complexity. It is like untangling the tangles of life, one at a time.

Tejwant Singh


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## Sinister (Jul 14, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Jeez closed system , open system, ajar systems, betting systems, whatever systems pshaw we can really make things complicated so we forget the question. What was the question, "What is good and what is bad?" The answer for me is incredibly simple, there is no good or bad there just is. Yup that's it.
> Let me give you an example:
> Bob is a printer and has a job at a fine company. John is also a printer in the same town with a family and has been out of work for nine months and hasn't been able to find another job in his trade. On a Tuesday Bob has a very bad car accident and will never be a printer again. On the following Thursday John not knowing of the accident applies for Bob's job and gets it.
> Was Bob's accident good or bad or good and bad or a push.
> ...


 

*Oh Satyaban! if only life were that simple and everything could be explained with carefully constructed examples…it is not…and in some deep part of yourself all of you understand...that there is greater complexity involved and evolved within us.*

*Time for me to change your case study:*

*What about if John carefully planned to sabotage Bob so that the position would open? (maybe he disconnected the brakes to Bob’s car that caused the accident)*

*What chemical and neural logarithm do you use to calibrate the best decision you can make? Would it be the time to “step back and see and say it is god”? or do you pull that trigger and make fate your own? (bringing us back to the debate on free will)*


*Duality, a pervasive property of arithmetic structures, holds that two operations or concepts are interchangeable, all results holding in one formulation also holding in the other, the dual formulation. In psychology Emile Durkheim termed it the Homo Duplex.*


*“human duality consists of a ‘controlled -processing’ mode in which thought is conceptual and action intentional, and an ‘automatic-processing’ mode which is much older and operates largely outside of consciousness. In contrast to Durkheim’s model, this mode contains both homeostatic motivations and the foundations of human sociality and morality. Nevertheless, Durkheim’s larger point remains true: Religious belief is born of the conflict between these two parallel modes of processing, as individuals behave and perceive under the influence of social influences that are transparent to their conscious awareness, and are compelled to reconcile the two modes via the construction of the sacred. In short, religion is an expected and predictable by-product of human dualism.”*
*Abstract lifted from: Douglas A Marshall "Durkheimian Dualism Redux: Homo Duplex and the Origins of Religion"*


*We are topsy turvy and twisted animals. Always contradicting ourselves yet somehow we arrive at some sort peace which allows us to function and make predictable decisions while displaying predictable feelings… accepting at different times a closed and open system.*

*Closed when we need motivation*

*Open when we? When we need peace, consolation and spiritual rejuvenation?*

*Simple, not overcomplicated, and it makes sense.*


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## Astroboy (Jul 14, 2009)

> The answer for me is incredibly simple, there is no good or bad there just is



Page 1018, Line 6
ਸੁਭਾਇ ਅਭਾਇ ਜੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੀਤੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
सुभाइ अभाइ जु निकटि आवै सीतु ता का जाइ ॥
Subẖā▫e abẖā▫e jo nikat āvai sīṯ ṯā kā jā▫e.
Good or bad, whoever comes close to the fire - his cold is taken away.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 186, Line 6
ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਕਹੀਜੈ ॥
बुरा भला कोई न कहीजै ॥
Burā bẖalā ko▫ī na kahījai.
Do not say that anyone is good or bad.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Josh martin (Jul 14, 2009)

namjap said:


> Josh martin Ji,
> 
> You have a remarkable philosophy deep within you. Possibly molded by past life karma.



Satyug rath santokh ka (ofcourse you knew this already) is from Asa di var, Which I heard in sadh sangat. Philosophy is merely stuff I hear in katha and pass on. Interest in Gurbani maybe something from past life karma.


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## Satyaban (Jul 14, 2009)

Sinister Ji even your amended version of my story could be extended to those effected but not a part of said conspiracy. It was still God John could have had a heart attack or any such thing but didn't. The bottom line is our determination of what is good or bad or good or evil is based on our position on this temporal ever changing plane of time and space under the illusion of maya. How could we possibly know. I don't have God consciousness do you if so I bow to you and kiss your feet.

Namjap ji:

Thank you for your post.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Sinister (Jul 14, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Sinister Ji even your amended version of my story could be extended to those effected but not a part of said conspiracy. It was still God John could have had a heart attack or any such thing but didn't. The bottom line is our determination of what is good or bad or good or evil is based on our position on this temporal ever changing plane of time and space under the illusion of maya. How could we possibly know. I don't have God consciousness do you if so I bow to you and kiss your feet.
> 
> Namjap ji:
> 
> ...


 


Satyaban said:


> The bottom line is our determination of what is good or bad or good or evil is based on our position on this temporal ever changing plane of time and space under the illusion of maya. How could we possibly know.


 
*Perhaps; by how we and others around us truly feel 'after the fact', could be an indicator of what is good or bad? (like that Lincoln quote)*

*anyways ....I have made my points...and althoug we disagree slightly, i have the feeling that world views coalesce given enough time and effort.*



*i had no intention of hijacking the post and i intend to bring it back to its 'rightful' owner (aman ji) *

*what are your views (and the rest of the forum members views) on christian existentialism?*

*and then if we could kindly progress to answer aman ji's question:*

*do all religions lead to enlightenment? if so how can such distinct philosophical differences be reconciled? (if what i posted above is not universal enough)*


*side note: "do onto others as they would have do onto you"...the golden rule as spoken by Jesus. what significance if any does this play in a world without free will?*


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## Satyaban (Jul 14, 2009)

Sinister Ji:
Christian existentialism? I have read some some existentialists' books but I think they were either Jews or atheists. So I'll have to get back to you on that so I know a little of what I am talking about. I really have to be on my toes here. LOL
My favorite Lincoln quote goes like this "If I were two faced would I go around wearing this one"
Lincoln had a great wit and also loved to Indian wrestle.
Let me ask you this. When God kicks off a new universe, I like the Big Bang theory, do you believe it is known what will happen from beginning to end as I do. Therefore there can be no divine intervention because that would mean God made an error he had to correct which of course is impossible. We must remember that like pulling a thread on a great rug altering an event would change time and events for ever, of course there a theory that an alternative universe starts immediately, anyway if you believe this isn't free will an illusion and predestination driven by Karma the rule? I have asked this of Christian friends and most can't grasp the concept.
Anyway I will have to get back to you my friend.

Pray for peace
Satyaban


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## selvi (Jul 14, 2009)

I am going to point out where the proselytizing occurs in this post as questions have come up about this in the past. The general rule I use -- to state a Christian belief without also modifying it by saying " As a Christian I believe'" and instead stating a Christian belief as if others should believe it. This can be offensive to others who do not share Christian beliefs. So look at where I have entered notes to see where the modifications should go

Well now think about the logic of this. Can I go into a phone booth and dial any phone number and get home? No, there's only one number that'll get me home. I could be sincere, but I could be sincerely wrong. The truth is, all roads don't lead to Rome and all roads and all religions don't lead to God.
You see, it all depends on which direction you take. Jesus said this, _"I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me._" I'm betting my life on the fact that He was right because I figured Jesus knows more about it than I did.
The Christian Bible tells us that on the road to heaven, there are only two directions, toward Christ or away from Him. Note that there is a difference between the Christian Bible and the Hebrew Bible that does not subscribe to the idea of Christ as sAvior. You can accept it or you can reject it, according to Christians, that's your choice. You can make Jesus the Lord of your life, that means the manager, the ceo, the person in charge of your life, or you can call Him a liar, but that's what the Bible declares.
You know a lot of people sincerely believe that even though they've broken God's rules that they can earn God's forgiveness by doing good works, by observing the _Five Pillars of Islam_ or the _Buddhist Eightfold Path_ or the _Hindu Doctrine of Karma_, for example. But as a Christian I don't get it.  (See if you don't indicate that you as a Christian are disagreeing, the statement can be very offensive to members of dharmic religions -- sounds almost like a sharp criticism of them) How will doing some good works that we should have done all our lives, make up for all the countless times we failed? You see, those who believe in heaven think that heaven is a perfect place and that means only perfect people get to go there. If not-perfect people were allowed in, it wouldn't be perfect anymore. Well I don't know about you, but I stopped being perfect a long time ago. Christians also believe that ...God came up with plan b. He came to earth in human form, Jesus Christ, and He lived a perfect life and now He offers to let us go to heaven on His ticket. Christians pray, And I pray that you will trust Jesus Christ and stop trying to bat a thousand because you ended up not doing that a long time ago (And this section is pure proselytizing) and accept God's free ticket through Jesus Christ.

These thoughts apply to everyone else too, not just Christians. *Do not state beliefs that are true for your religion as if they should be true for everyone else. And/Or continue to state that *if others do not accept these truths then they are living lives of error.  Now because we are in inter-faith dialogs the compare and contrast of different religions is acceptable. In other forums at SPN, the notion that the only way to salvation is the Christian way, or the Muslim way, or they xxx way, is Possibly Offensive to Sikhs or adherents of other faiths. The post would either be deleted or moved as a new thread to Interfaith dialogs. I hope this helps explain things. Thank you, Narayanjot Kaur


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## Admin (Jul 14, 2009)

selvi said:


> I am going to point out where the proselytizing occurs in this post as questions have come up about this in the past. The general rule I use -- to state a Christian belief without also modifying it by saying " As a Christian I believe'" and instead stating a Christian belief as if others should believe it. This can be offensive to others who do not share Christian beliefs. So look at where I have entered notes to see where the modifications should go
> 
> Well now think about the logic of this. Can I go into a phone booth and dial any phone number and get home? No, there's only one number that'll get me home. I could be sincere, but I could be sincerely wrong. The truth is, all roads don't lead to Rome and all roads and all religions don't lead to God.
> You see, it all depends on which direction you take. Jesus said this, _"I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me._" I'm betting my life on the fact that He was right because I figured Jesus knows more about it than I did.
> ...



This is just to reiterate Narayanjot Kaur's point in blue print. :yes:


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## lalihayer (Jul 14, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Sinister Ji:
> Christian existentialism? I have read some some existentialists' books but I think they were either Jews or atheists. So I'll have to get back to you on that so I know a little of what I am talking about. I really have to be on my toes here. LOL
> My favorite Lincoln quote goes like this "If I were two faced would I go around wearing this one"
> Lincoln had a great wit and also loved to Indian wrestle.
> ...


Lord is ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ, perfect architect of destiny. The moment first event occurred for creation of universe, last was known to Him. 

Lord is ਅਕਾਲ, beyond time. Universe, His creation is bound in time. Lord created time and space. Looking at His creation from outside this timeline, He does not need to wait for any particular moment to change course.


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## Satyaban (Jul 14, 2009)

Namaste Selvi Ji:
What in the hell are you talking about.(I don't believe in your hell so it doesn't mean much to me so I use it) "I'm betting my life on the fact that He was right because I figured Jesus knows more about it than I did." You are not betting even a dime. You see it is a Pascal's wager. Whether you have made the best choice possible or not you are still on a spiritual journey and perhaps this was a part of your journey anyway all a part of your spiritual evolution and maturation. You see I don't believe their is a wrong bet or choice. Our paths twist and turn sometimes walking together, sometimes crisscrossing and sometimes the path is straight. Our only job is to stay on that path with diligence, elan, and stead fastness. If we get lost or off the track we get guidance from God and get back on it asap. God will not take you the wrong way how can he he made it just for you.

"You know a lot of people sincerely believe that even though they've broken God's rules that they can earn God's forgiveness by doing good works, by observing the _Five Pillars of Islam_ or the _Buddhist Eightfold Path_ or the _Hindu Doctrine of Karma_, for example. But as a Christian I don't get it. (See if you don't indicate that you as a Christian are disagreeing, the statement can be very offensive to members of dharmic religions -- sounds almost like a sharp criticism of them) How will doing some good works that we should have done all our lives, make up for all the countless times we failed? You see, those who believe in heaven think that heaven is a perfect place and that means only perfect people get to go there."

You are full of misinformation. I think there is only one thing that universally bugs us about Christians and that is their shameless proselytizing of the poor and underprivileged with their prosperity theology in places like my spiritual motherland India and also Africa and South America. Another Issue with me personally are those TV preachers begging for money with their mega churches and also people like Benny Hinn( A Palestinian I find that interesting) and others of his ilk.

I hope you will open you mind and think about these things.

Pray for peace
Satyaban


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 14, 2009)

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥


Aasaa, First Mehl:​

ਕਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੈ ਧੋਤੀ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕੁਸਪਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਸੁ ਜਾਚਉ ਨਾਉ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥੧॥*ਪਾਂਡੇ ਐਸਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ **॥**ਨਾਮੇ ਸੁਚਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਪੜਉ ਨਾਮੇ ਚਜੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ **॥**੧**॥ **ਰਹਾਉ **॥* ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਨੇਊ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥ ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਭਾਲਿ ॥੨॥ ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਮਾਇਆ ਪਰਜਾਲਿ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਤੁ ਗਗਨ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੩॥ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ਪਾਹਰੂਅਰਾ ਛਬਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਿਲਾਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੁ ॥ਬੂਝੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਬੇਕੁ ॥੪॥*ਆਚਾਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਤਿਆ ਜਾਇ **॥**ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ **॥*ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥੫॥੨੦॥

_Kā▫i▫ā barahmā man hai __ḏẖo__ṯī Gi▫ān jane▫ū __ḏẖi▫ān kuspā__ṯī. Gur parsādī barahm samā▫o. ||1|| *Pāŉde aisā barahm bīc*_*ẖār Nāme suc**ẖ nāmo pa**ṛa▫o nāme c**ẖaj āc**ẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o.*_ Bāhar jane▫ū jic__ẖar jo__ṯ hai nāl.__ Ḏẖo__ṯī tikā nām samāl. Aithai othai nibhī nāl. vi__ṇ nāvai hor karam na b__ẖāl. ||2|| Pūjā parem mā▫i▫ā parjāl. Ėko vek__ẖhu avar na b__ẖāl. C__ẖīnĥai __ṯa__ṯ gagan __ḏas __ḏu▫ār. B__ẖojan b__ẖā▫o b__ẖaram b__ẖa▫o b__ẖāgai. Pāhrū▫arā c__ẖẖab c__ẖor na lāgai. Ŧilak lilāt jā__ṇai parab__ẖ ek. Būj__ẖai barahm an__ṯar bibek. ||4|| *Āc*_*ẖārī nahī jī**ṯi▫ā jā▫e. Pā**ṯẖ pa**ṛai nahī kīma**ṯ pā▫e.*_ Asat __ḏasī c__ẖahu b__ẖe__ḏ na pā▫i▫ā. Nānak sa__ṯgur barahm __ḏik__ẖā▫i▫ā. ||5||20||_

Let the body be the Brahmin, and let the mind be the loin-cloth; let spiritual wisdom be the sacred thread, and meditation the ceremonial ring. I seek the Name of the Akal Purkh and Its Praise as my cleansing bath. By Guru's Grace, I am absorbed into God. ||1|| *O, religious scholar, contemplate God in such a way* *that Its Name may sanctify you, be your study, wisdom, and way of life. ||1||Pause||* The outer sacred thread is worthwhile only as long as the Divine Light is within. So make the remembrance of the Name of the Akal Purkh, your loin-cloth and the ceremonial mark on your forehead. Here and hereafter, the Name alone shall stand by you. Do not seek any other actions, except the Name. ||2|| Worship the God in loving adoration, and burn your desire for Maya. Behold only the One Creator, and do not seek out any other. Become aware of reality, in the Sky of the Tenth Gate; read aloud It's Word, and contemplate it. ||3|| With the diet of Its Love, doubt and fear depart. With God as your night watchman, no thief will dare to break in. Let the knowledge of the One God be the ceremonial mark on your forehead. Let the realization that God is within you be your discrimination. ||4|| *Through ritual actions, God cannot be won over;* *by reciting sacred scriptures, His value cannot be estimated.* The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know Its mystery. O Nanak, the True Guru has shown me the God. ||5||20|| -----Guru Nanak,,Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 355

Virinder


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## Sinister (Jul 15, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Sinister Ji:





Satyaban said:


> Christian existentialism? I have read some some existentialists' books but I think they were either Jews or atheists. So I'll have to get back to you on that so I know a little of what I am talking about. I really have to be on my toes here. LOL


 
I will wait patiently for an answer.

Satyaban ji, 

Rationality of people like myself has its limits and cannot venture into the areas that you question without sounding flat and disappointing (thoughts become a can of worms…a toy that is enjoyable but hard to repack). I will do my best and explore the avenue’s of thought with your help and with your words.




Satyaban said:


> Let me ask you this. When God kicks off a new universe,


 
If god kicks off a new universe and if the universe was kicked off to begin with (many have theorized the existence of an oscillating universe of continuous contraction and expansion)... Let us not revel in assumptive arrogance that we live with reliable explanations that can attest the timeline beginnings of the universe through and through. Or let us not conclude our beliefs that there are multiple universes, as the one we currently reside in seems endless to me. It is faith that leads a person to become uncertain and certain; in fact such feelings can only survive and retain meaning via a codependency or symbiotic relationship. Theoretically, absolute uncertainty is an unattainable state. Because in order to be absolutely uncertain one must be certain that they are uncertain; such a thought extrapolates to ad infinitum in a linguistic joyride.




Satyaban said:


> I like the Big Bang theory, do you believe it is known what will happen from beginning to end as I do. Therefore there can be no divine intervention because that would mean God made an error he had to correct which of course is impossible.


 
In deeper thoughts the contradictions begin. Like you said before you do not know what is good or bad or you felt unmerited to divulge good from bad. So why do you assume that God would make an error by performing an intervention? If you do not believe in good and bad you also cannot believe in the word ‘error’ as this word in linguistics is paralleled by the word wrong and carries an undesirable connotation and direct relationship with the word bad. This lack of consistency and cognitive dissonance is present in us all as I explained in my earlier posts. You also cannot believe in the word “correct” in its entirety.

It is postulated that before the big bang everything existed in what is termed a point in geometry/or a singularity that can be represented theoretically in mathematical theorems (eg; Penrose-Hawking Singularity theorem) but whose physical properties are all but unknown to us. This indivisible, infinitesimally small, yet infinitesimally dense singularity held the universe and all its contents including the matter and energy that would become you, me, and my Teflon reinforced, non-stick, 106 inch, George Foreman Grill. What I find intriguing is that our origins are from the same point in this massive space-time continuum…and maybe that is where we all wish to return and in this is why we posit our notion of a mono/singular God as a destination. (while ignoring the journey)

Whether God cares to know or intervene is irrelevant to me as it should be to you. 




Satyaban said:


> We must remember that like pulling a thread on a great rug altering an event would change time and events for ever, of course there a theory that an alternative universe starts immediately, anyway if you believe this isn't free will an illusion and predestination driven by Karma the rule? I have asked this of Christian friends and most can't grasp the concept.


 
Most cannot grasp the concept because the concept is incomplete…it is that simple…a person must not feel bashful but more enthralled and enlightened because of it’s incompleteness. That is just the way the cookie of life crumbles; as we grow older ‘the more we learn the more we know how much we don’t know”…realization of this is enlightenment... and the expansion of exploring the ever expanding branches of the unknown…an act of wisdom?

keep it awesome
sinister


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## Satyaban (Jul 15, 2009)

Sinister Ji:
Thank you for a great post filled with logic that can go a long way in science until we hit quantum physics and I am not sure how logic applies to God which is beyond our conception.

"Theoretically, absolute uncertainty is an unattainable state. Because in order to be absolutely uncertain one must be certain that they are uncertain; such a thought extrapolates to ad infinitum in a linguistic joyride."

A sort of mind experiment there. I don't know why but it reminds me of I think it was Schroedinger's cat, my library leaves me wanting, where it is not determined if the cat is dead or alive until it is observed. This of course is extended to the photon question of whether it is a particle or a wave and apparently it depends on what you are looking for. You look for wave behavior you get it, particle behavior you get it. Some like Richard Feynman suggested that maybe photon are wave until observed and then collapse into particles which would mean the moon would dissolve if not observed often enough and someone must be observing the observer and so on. So logic can be a problem in science. In my using the rug as an example and so forth I had the temeritry to look at it sort of from God's perspective. So my use of the word error and such was eentirely different as I said it was impossible for God to err.

"In deeper thoughts the contradictions begin. Like you said before you do not know what is good or bad or you felt unmerited to divulge good from bad. So why do you assume that God would make an error by performing an intervention? If you do not believe in good and bad you also cannot believe in the word ‘error’ as this word in linguistics is paralleled by the word wrong and carries an undesirable connotation and direct relationship with the word bad. This lack of consistency and cognitive dissonance is present in us all as I explained in my earlier posts. You also cannot believe in the word “correct” in its entirety."

I hope I have cleared this up.

I try very hard to separate science from religion, except where it is used to confirm or correct timelines it scripture, but it is not always easy especially when they seem to agree. I am a huge fan of Joseph Campbell and would strongly urge anyone who is seeking truth to read him to include "The Inner Reaches of Outer Space Myth and Metaphor as Religion" I have had many copies and give them away it can help explain alot about how we got to where we are from privitive cultures around the globe and into space.
I have a great deal of respect for Stephen Hawking and have a bit of a story about him. He was in Italy to address a symposium on theoretical physics of course and the day before he had and audience with Pope John I believe who cordially asked him to stop his work before he found God. The following day he gave his speech as planned on just that subject. I find it fascinating that the closer we get to for lack of a better term the edge of the universe the more we know about the beginning because where ever we stand we are in the middle.

"It is postulated that before the big bang everything existed in what is termed a point in geometry/or a singularity that can be represented theoretically in mathematical theorems (eg; Penrose-Hawking Singularity theorem) but whose physical properties are all but unknown to us. This indivisible, infinitesimally small, yet infinitesimally dense singularity held the universe and all its contents including the matter and energy that would become you, me, and my Teflon reinforced, non-stick, 106 inch, George Foreman Grill. What I find intriguing is that our origins are from the same point in this massive space-time continuum…and maybe that is where we all wish to return and in this is why we posit our notion of a mono/singular God as a destination. (while ignoring the journey)"

Yes indeed a singularity infiniely dense, infinitely small containing everything but God who I believe was sleeping who upon waking would create a new universe like the last one or maybe not. At the moment new laws of physics everything, maybe reversed polarities etc. I don't think it has anything to do with mono theism their was no consciousness at that time or for billions of years to come to leave even a vestige of a memory.
BTW how is that George Foreman grill working for you? I eat mostly grains myself.

"Most cannot grasp the concept because the concept is incomplete…it is that simple…a person must not feel bashful but more enthralled and enlightened because of it’s incompleteness. That is just the way the cookie of life crumbles; as we grow older ‘the more we learn the more we know how much we don’t know”…realization of this is enlightenment... and the expansion of exploring the ever expanding branches of the unknown…an act of wisdom?"

I am not sure if I understand you here. I understand the part about the more we know the more we learn we don't know or more simply put Ignorance is bliss.
All I have stated above is what I believe and how I understand it not how it is for the reader necessarily.

Peace to you and yours


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## Satyaban (Jul 15, 2009)

vsgrewal48895

I have no rap for you.

Peace
Satyaban


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## AusDesi (Jul 18, 2009)

As a Advaita/Vaishnavite and a Hindu I would say yes. Infact, in Bhagvad Gita Lord Krishna(Virat Roopa) himself says so. 

"Even those who are the devotees of other gods and worship them with faithful reverence, even they O'Kauntelya, worship Me alone in essence, though not in accordance with the right approach."

Now please do note that in Bhagvat Gita, Lord Krishna is not speaking as a human being incarnation but as the supreme being. 

So no matter what the name, if done with devotion all religions lead to god.

Alternatively, the shloka can also mean that there is no other god there is only one.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 18, 2009)

*DEVOTION/ਭਗਤੀ/ਸਾਧਨਾ*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 
Devotion is a manifestation of deep affection or love. It can be an eager inclination, zeal or even an addiction. Such feelings toward God can be appropriately expressed by acts of worship; devoutness and commitment.

ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰੈ ॥

_Ėhā bẖagaṯ jan jīvaṯ marai. Gur parsādī bẖavjal ṯarai._

True Devotion is to remain dead while yet alive. By Guru's Grace, one crosses over the terrible world-ocean.-----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 365-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Devotion *as an ardent affection can be directed toward a person or a principle. It can be a pious dedication, or love of religious observance. One may bring eager feelings towards God and express them through acts of worship with devoutness. Devotion is one of the necessary perfections required in Sikhism for spiritual growth. It requires real dedication to Naam Simran and the Truth. It is characterized by Willingness. In daily life it is reflected in true humility from the core of one’s heart and in rigorous honesty one aims to attain God’s Grace. The Grace is required in controlling the mind to stay focused in devotion.

ਸਚੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਲੁ ਥੀਆ ਰਤਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

_Sacẖī bẖagṯī man lāl thī¬ā raṯā sahj subẖā¬ė. Gur sabḏī man mohi¬ā kahṇā kacẖẖū na jā¬ė_.

In true devotion, the mind is dyed in the deep crimson color of the Akal Purkh's Love. It brings intuitive peace and poise. The mind is fascinated by the Word of the Guru's Sabd, which cannot be described. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 36-13

What an individual is looking for in his life?

There is something inside telling us that there is more to life than meets the eye. We may sense that there are better ways to interact with our reality with deference. We want to open something inside but aren't sure what that something is. Each of us on this earth is at a different stage of spiritual journey. Others can preach to us, but they themselves may be unable to live according to what they profess.

ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕ ਦਿ੍ੜਾਵੈ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ 

_Upḏės karė kar lok ḏariṛ¬āvai. Apnā kahi¬ā āp na kamāvai._

You preach to others to have faith, but you do not practice what you preach.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 887-18

The Spirit or Conscience is patiently waiting within each individual to be awakened. It can reach the highest level of awareness through one’s dedication and earnest devotion. One only has to follow the teachings of Sabd Guru: 

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਬਚਨੁ ਜਪਿ ਮੰਤੁ॥ ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਾਰ ਤਤੁ ॥

_Gur kā bacẖan jap manṯ. Ėhā bẖagaṯ sār ṯaṯ_.

Chant the teaching of the Guru's Word. This is the essence of true devotional worship.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 895-8

Sikh Gurus have rejected rituals like the worshiping of stone sculptures as God. God could be unveiled in one’s self through devotion. 

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥ ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰ ॥ 

_Pāthar lė pūjeh mugaḏẖ gavār. Ohi jā āp dubė ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār._

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bihagra, AGGS, Page, 556-10

But Bhagat Dhanna got God out of the stone with Innocent devotion, given to him by a local Brahman. 

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥

_Ih biḏẖ sun kai jātro uṯẖ bẖagṯī lāgā. Milė parṯakẖ gusā¬ī¬ā ḏẖannā vadbẖāgā._

Hearing this, Dhanna the Jaat applied himself to devotional worship. The Akal Purkh of the Universe met him personally; Dhanna was so very blessed. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 488-1

Although Dhanna began life as an idol worshipper, he eventually became devoted to the contemplation of Naam.

ਧੰਨੈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ॥

_Ḏẖannai sėvi¬ā bāl buḏẖ._

Dhanna served the God, with the innocence of a child.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1192-8

Love of God has nothing to do with what one is expecting to get. It is more about what you are expected to give -- which is everything. Devotion is the immortal flow of energy that nourishes, extends and preserves life. Its chief goal is to enhance the spiritual life.

ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬੂਝ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥

_Prem Pareet Bhaey Bhagtee Paaee-ai Satgur Boojh Bujhaaee._

The True Guru has made me gain the understanding that the Akal Purkh is reached through affection and loving devotion.-----Guru Amardas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 245-14

One’s daily life also benefits from spiritual growth. He may begin to find happiness in marriage, career, and other interests. Still intentions come easier than making actual, positive progress in spirituality. Active devotion can aid one both in spiritual and non-spiritual matters. 
One can make time for any accomplishment, one chooses in life. However, modern man demands scientific proof of the validity of any practices, before he can be persuaded to accept them. They must serve the welfare of the individual or of society. This is true of values patronized in ancient spirituality as well. This is indeed a Herculean task, given the intellectual and scientific evolution the past millennium. There has been almost a simultaneous deterioration in religious and cultural life. The result is nearly a total neglect of spirituality and the emergence of blind faith. Misconceptions, prejudices and superstitions abound. Until and unless the principles of a faith are truly understood, there cannot be a true devotion to it. What are the prospects for an individual at the present in this regard? 

ਪਾਖੰਡਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਬੋਲੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਰਲਾਇਆ ਨਾ ਰਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

_Pakhand Bhagat Na Hova-ee Dubidhaa Boal Khuaar, So Jan Ralaa-i-aa Naa Ralai Jis Antar Bibayk Beechaar._

Hypocrisy is not devotion. Words and thoughts of duality can only lead to misery. There are humble ones who filled with keen understanding and meditative contemplation intermingles with the others. Yet they remain distinct.-----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 28-17

Newer generation seems inclined to accept the New Leftist atheistic ideologies in the West. God and the religion tend to be regarded as phantom creations of the sick and fearful minds. Human body is seen merely as chemical combination of inert elements. The very existence of immortal consciousness is denied, A few in modern society also flirt with atheism like Dr.Dawkins, who claims God to be a mental delusion of the mortal. They view worship of God as futile because God did not respond to their selfish prayers and demands made in their distress. As a consequence, even a long held religiosity is discarded.

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਗਾਵਿਆ ਥਾਇ ਪਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ਜੋ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਰਤੀਤੀ ਕਪਟੀ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੀ ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟਦੇ ਉਨ ਕਾ ਉਤਰਿ ਜਾਇਗਾ ਝੂਠੁ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥

_Jis No Parteet Hovai Tis Kaa Gaavi-aa Thaa-ay Pavai So Paavai Dargeh Maan, Jo Bin Parteetee Kapttee Koorhee Koorhee Akhee Meetday Oun Kaa Outar Jaaigaa Jhooth Gumaan._ 

One who has faith, his singing is approved. He is honored in the Court of the Akal Purkh. Those who lack faith may close their eyes, hypocritically pretending and faking devotion, but their false pretenses shall soon wear out.-----Guru Ramdas, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 734-16

Our lives are not determined by what happens to us but by how we react to what happens to us. We are not enriched by what life brings to us, but by the attitude we bring to life. A positive attitude causes a chain reaction of positive thoughts, events, and outcomes. It is a catalyst, a spark that creates extraordinary results. Our purpose in life is, perhaps, to be useful, to be responsible, and to be compassionate while we lead a fuller life. This prospect is cancelled, however, once greed appears in the mind.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਸੰਜਮੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਵਿਸੇਖ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ ਔਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਮਨੁ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਓਇ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

_Jay Ko Aisaa Sanjmee Hoey, Kirya Visaykh Poojaa Karaey, Antar Lobh Man Bikhiya Maa-eh, Oeay Niranjan Kaisay Paa-eh._

Someone practices self-discipline, compassion and devotional worship; but if he is filled with greed and if his mind is engrossed in corruption, how can he find the Immaculate Akal Purkh? -----Guru Amardas, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1169-8

Activation of the subtle centers in the brain and the endocrine system can unleash the miraculous powers of the inner mind. It can reveal the extrasensory mental faculties in us. Sincere devotion in following the Sabd Guru makes this possible. Using these powers to produce miracles, however, is forbidden.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਆਪੈ ਆਪੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਾ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 

_Gurmukh Kirpaa Karay Bhagat Keejai Bin Gur Bhagat Na Hoay, Aapai Aap Milaa-ay Boojhai Taa Nirmal Hovai Ko-ay._

By God's Grace, the Gurmukh practices devotion. Without the Guru, devotional worship is not possible. One who merges his own self into Akal Purkh understands, and so becomes pure. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 64-15

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮੇਟੇ ਚਉਥੈ ਵਰਤੈ ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਬਦਿ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਏਕੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥

_Tarai Gun Maytay Cha-uthai Vartai Ayhaa Bhagat Niraaree, Gurmukh Jog Sabd Aatam Cheenai Hirdai Ayk Muraaree._ 

Eradicating the three qualities, dwell in the fourth state. This is the unparalleled devotional worship. This is the Yoga of the Guru willed: Through the Sabd, he understands his own conscience, and he enshrines within his heart the One Akal Purkh. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 908-3

*Conclusion:*

Spiritually enlightened mind is said to be a source of divine potentials. Hidden beneath the core of the conscious mind, there lie the prodigious powers of the unconscious mind. Devotion is the key to success in any project but more so in the life of the spirit. It is manifested in an ardent selfless affection, hope, faith and dedication. It is filled with God’s love. It gives a spiritual boost to the principle. In it one commits oneself in personal and private religious supplication to God and prays for understanding. 

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਆਨੰਦੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ॥

_Har Kee Bhagat Mukat Aanand, Gurmat Paa-ay Parmaanand._

Through devotional worship of the Akal Purkh, liberation and bliss are obtained. Through the Guru's Teachings, supreme ecstasy is obtained. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 154-15

ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਚੂਕੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਹਯਵੈ ਪਰਵਾਨ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਸਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਜਾਨ ॥ 

_Ayhaa Bhagat Chookai Abhimaan, Satgur Sayvi-ai Hovai Parvaan, Jin Aasaa Keetee Tis No Jaan._ 

By this devotional worship, egotism is eliminated. Serving the True Guru, one gains Its approval. So know the One, who created hope and desire.-----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 424-2

Virinder S. Grewal


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## JimRinX (Jul 18, 2009)

AusDesi ji
You are Quite Right!
Though I call myself a Mahayana/Hinayana Buddhist (if only because The Great One - which is what I've come to call 'Om', 'God', 'Allah', the Duality Ahura Mazda/Angra Maynu - 'recommended' His Holiness, The Dali Lama, as someone whose teachings most closely mirrored what I was shown one wonderful day in 1991), when I entered the Bhakti - or Ananda - or 'I Transcended' - or 'I entered the Formless realm called the Bardo' - one fine day in 1991, and communed with The Great One, that is exactly what IT told me; then, so that I would *believe *when I awoke, it caused a white streak to appear in my hair, directly above and in-between my eyes.
The *real *question is; Can all of these 'Paths to God' *cease to be *'Paths to Conflict', as well?
Can Sikhi forgive Hindu; The Hindu The Muslims; The Brahmin the Sikhi; The Jew the Catholic?!?
It *Pains The Great One So, *to see things the way they are.
Oh, and tell your Generals, Hindus, that 'W' didn't give you 3 Megaton Tech because he Loves You; he did so because he *hopes you'll use it one one another!*
He is a Racists - a White Supremacists; and if you Nuke yourselves into Oblivion - his type will send in the Robots to rape your Mutated Progeny of whatevers left.
Look Up - To The Moon, The Stars!


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## JimRinX (Jul 18, 2009)

Sinister ji
The lack of any kind of 'Officially Endorsed' Christian Existentialism, is one of the main reasons I left the Catholic Church; though, if you look at, say, St John the Divines' writings through the eyes of a Dharma Practitioner, then you'll see that they let a few slip through the cracks.
The rest? Burned at the stake alive. The Church was, and to a lesser degree nowadays is, all about Control - not about seeking the Truth, let alone seeking it within.
The Borgias and Medici Popes saw to that; and, in the late 9th and early 10th Centuries of the 'Common Era', the 'Eccumenical Councils' eviscerated (from the Biblical Gospels) whatever was left of any kind of 'Pro-Gnosticism' content.
If you want to read about Christian Existentialism, read The Gnostic Gospels; which are based on some Scrolls (NOT the Dead Sea Scrolls) that some Bedouins found in a Jar in Egypt in the 1930s' (I think); they have many interesting, and by Catholic Standards Heretical (aka; They'd Burn You Alive for even reading them at one time), writings that - apparently - date to the 3rd and 4th C. CE.
There's even a Gospel of MARY! OMG - the very IDEA was once soooo UN-Clean!
I think Nestorius was the Last real Christian; but, true to form, the Eastern (Un)Holy Roman Pope had Him KILLED.
Addressing your, and Satyaban jis, Ideas about the Big Bang, etc. - through detailing my own Existential Experiences/Observations, and then reconciling them with QCM, String, and Brane/Bulk Theory would take several pages, and much time that I do not have right now.
If you go to my Introducing Myself and/or Bio Page, you'll see that I've had several blessed opportunities to get an answer (or, rather, part of one) to these issues right from OM's Own Mouth!
Keep Thinking! Some day we'll travel the Stars via our Minds as-of-yet untapped powers - just like in Dune!


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## AusDesi (Jul 18, 2009)

JimRinX said:


> The *real *question is; Can all of these 'Paths to God' *cease to be *'Paths to Conflict', as well?


Ye they can be happy together but the problem is the orthdoxy in every religion. I like a quote from Kazi Nazrul Islam who was Indian bengali but later moved to Bangladesh. 

‘’I can tolerate Hinduism and Muslims but I cannot tolerate the Tikism (Tiki is a tuft of never cut hair kept on the head by certain Hindus to maitain personal Holiness) and beardism. Tiki is not Hinduism. It may be the sign of the pundit. Similarly beards is not Islam, it may be the sign of the pundit. Similarly beard is not Islam, it may be the sign of the mollah. All the hair-pulling have originated from those two tufts of hair. Todays fighting is alos between the Pundit and the Mollah: It is not between the Hindus and the Muslims. No prophet has said, ‘’I have come for Hindus I have come for Muslims I have come for Christians.” They have said, “I have come for the humanity for everyone, like light’’. But the devotees of Krishna says, “Krishna is for Hindus”. The followers of Muhammad (Sm) says, “Muhammad (Sm) is for the Muslims”. The Disciple of Christ is for Christian”. Krishna-Muhammad-Christ have become national property. This property is the root of all trouble. Men do not quarrel for light but they quarrel over cattles.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazrul_islam#cite_note-26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazrul_islam#cite_note-26


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2009)

_No prophet has said, ‘’I have come for Hindus I have come for Muslims I have come for Christians.” They have said, “I have come for the humanity for everyone, like light’’. But the devotees of Krishna says, “Krishna is for Hindus”. The followers of Muhammad (Sm) says, “Muhammad (Sm) is for the Muslims”. The Disciple of Christ is for Christian”. Krishna-Muhammad-Christ have become national property. This property is the root of all trouble. Men do not quarrel for light but they quarrel over cattles.”_

Aus Desi ji,


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## AusDesi (Jul 18, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> _No prophet has said, ‘’I have come for Hindus I have come for Muslims I have come for Christians.” They have said, “I have come for the humanity for everyone, like light’’. But the devotees of Krishna says, “Krishna is for Hindus”. The followers of Muhammad (Sm) says, “Muhammad (Sm) is for the Muslims”. The Disciple of Christ is for Christian”. Krishna-Muhammad-Christ have become national property. This property is the root of all trouble. Men do not quarrel for light but they quarrel over cattles.”_
> 
> Aus Desi ji,


I'm glad you liked it, Narayanjot Kaur ji.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 19, 2009)

Dear Ausdesi Ji,

I concur with your deductions and agree with it. All prophets are for humanity not for a particular religion. Religions are formed by followers not by prophets. It is the followers who institutionalize these religions to control the other followers. Actually there is only one religion says Guru Nanak in Raag Basant;

ਏਕੋ ਧਰਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਸਚੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਸੋਈ ॥ 

_Ayko Dharam Dirrhai Such Koyee, Gurmat Pooraa Jug Jug So-ee._

Let everyone grasp the truth that there is only one sole faith of righteousness. One guided by the Master, age after age stays perfect.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1188-15

Cordially,

Virinder


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## AusDesi (Jul 19, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Ausdesi Ji,
> 
> I concur with your deductions and agree with it. All prophets are for humanity not for a particular religion. Religions are formed by followers not by prophets. It is the followers who institutionalize these religions to control the other followers. Actually there is only one religion says Guru Nanak in Raag Basant;
> 
> ...



Virinder Saab, 

The quote is not mine. It is of Kazi Nazrul Islam the Bengali poet. However, I do agree with the quote from AGGS.


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## Satyaban (Jul 20, 2009)

*AusDesi Ji:*
*Your opinions are a welcomed new voice to this site.*


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 20, 2009)

AusDesi said:


> As a Advaita/Vaishnavite and a Hindu I would say yes. Infact, in Bhagvad Gita Lord Krishna(Virat Roopa) himself says so.
> 
> "Even those who are the devotees of other gods and worship them with faithful reverence, even they O'Kauntelya, worship Me alone in essence, though not in accordance with the right approach."
> 
> ...



AusDesi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your write:



> Now please do note that in Bhagvat Gita, Lord Krishna is not speaking as a human being incarnation but as *the supreme being. *




What do you mean by" *the supreme being"? *Can you please elaborate that in lay man's terms?

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Satyaban (Jul 20, 2009)

Sinister Ji:

I have not forgotten "Christian Existentialism" I was not aware what you were talking about until you mentioned gnostics and Nestorians. Let me tell you a little story.

My family lives in a compound of sorts the street bears my last name and my mother, one sister, two brothers, my two sons, and nephews all have their homes there. They are all fundamentalist Christians, my mother Southern Baptist, definitely the religious right. Anyhow for Christmas one year I gave my daughter in law a copy of "The Gospel of Saint Thomas" and my sister Shirley said I was a "most dangerous man". That was the last year I gave Christmas presents to my family.

So sure there is much I like about them as there is much I like about all religions. However their believing that the kingdom of God is here and God is to be found everywhere is something special in Christianity. Would it have been included in the Bible if available I think maybe not because it would be a threat to intercesion by priests, but perhaps St Thomas would have been a real heavy weight I don't know.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 20, 2009)

Ausdesi ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to disagree with your above assertion or/and claim. Jesus, whom the Christians call God and or the Son of God said the following in the Holy Bible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazrul_islam#cite_note-26 *Jesus said, "I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me." (John.14:6)*

One can find more verses in the Bible  which also give the message mentioned above.

The Holy Qur’an says similar things or even worse for the non-believers- whom it calls Kafirs.


_The Believers are but a single Brotherhood_ (49:10)
The Qur’an makes it clear that Islam is not about  universal brotherhood, but about the brotherhood of believers: 
_The Believers are but a single Brotherhood_ (49:10)​ Not all men are equal under Islam.  Slaves and the  handicapped are not equal to healthy free men, for example (16:75-76).   The Qur’an introduces the “Law of Equality,” which establishes different levels  of human value when considering certain matters, such as restitution for murder  (2:178).   
With regard to Islam, the Qur’an tells Muslims that  they are a favored race, while those of other religions are “*******ed  transgressors”:
*Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for  mankind*_, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and  believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for  them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are ********ed  transgressors*._ (3:110)​ As we shall see later, Allah condemns non-Muslims to  Hell based merely on their unbelief, while believers are rewarded with the  finest earthly comforts in the hereafter, including never-ending food, wine and  sex (56:12-40). 



 In  fact, much of the Qur’an is devoted to distinguishing Muslims from non-Muslims  and impugning the latter.


I do not know much about Bhagvat Gita and how it shows that all humanity is ONE. Perhaps, you can quote some verses from it which show that.


I know, Sikhism does that.



Tejwant Singh


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## Satyaban (Jul 20, 2009)

JimRinx Ji

Oh, and tell your Generals, Hindus, that 'W' didn't give you 3 Megaton Tech because he Loves You; he did so because he *hopes you'll use it one one another!*
He is a Racists - a White Supremacists; and if you Nuke yourselves into Oblivion - his type will send in the Robots to rape your Mutated Progeny of whatevers left.

I have no idea what this means or what you are talking about in an otherwise wonderful post. Not quite what I would expect from a Buddhist but what do I know.

Om shanti shanti
Satyaban


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## AusDesi (Jul 20, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> AusDesi ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Certainly sir. Lord Krishna is a human avatar of Lord Vishnu. In most of Mahabharata he acts as a human being. However, When the Bhagvad Gita starts Arjuna basically has a urge not to fight due to all those who will be killed. Many of them will be his relatives. 

Lord Krishna reminds him that its his Dharma to fight against opression. Arjuna finally accepts this but he insists that since he might die he wants to see the 'virat rupa' of Lord Krishna. After that, Lord Krishna talks to him in the Virat Rupa. Virat Rupa is the Supreme Being form of God aka the Brahman. Here is an artists image which i also use as my avatar:







Due to this Virat Rupa, The Hare Krishna or ISKON pray to the virat Rupa of krishna. They are monotheists and pray only to Krishna as he is the only god to show his true form in the modern day according to Hindu scriptures.


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## AusDesi (Jul 20, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ausdesi ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



That is the fundamental difference between Hinduism and Abrahamic religions. No sect of Hinduism says that only their way is right. There are many paths to god. Some Neo-Hindu sects might disagree like ISKON though.  

The quote I showed contradicts the John 14:6. Krishna does not say that you can reach Moksha only through worshipping him. 

Since you ask about all Humanity is one. Since Bhagvad Gita is a conversation of god and human about attaining Moksha, Lord Krishna answers this differently. 

"I am the indwelling-soul, O'Gaudakesha(Arjuna) seated in the hearts of all beings, I am the beginning, the middle, as well as the end of all beings" ch10:V20

"I am the seed of all living beings, O'Arjuna." Ch10:V39

Now as i said Bhgavad Gita is not a commentary. Both those verses says that the Lord if part of all human beings. Since Bhagavd Gita says that every human is equal. 

Moreover, Bhagvad Gita also says that only those who hold no enmities towrds other human beings can see the lord:

"He who performs all his actions for me, considers me as his supreme goal, and is totally devoted to me, who is non-attached and free from malice towards all beings, surely comes to me, O'Arjuna" Ch11:V55

"One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me—such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me."Ch12:V13-14

I hope I have answered your question.


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## AusDesi (Jul 20, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> *AusDesi Ji:*
> *Your opinions are a welcomed new voice to this site.*


Thank you Satyaban ji, 

Nice to hear your opinions too. In fact, I look forward to learning a bit about Shaivism. Coming from a Sanatan Dharmic family, I had to choose my own path is Hinduism and I chose Krishnaism.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 20, 2009)

AusDesi ji,

Guru Fateh.

You mean, now you disagree with Kazi Nazrul Islam whom you have quoted in agreement below regarding the Abrahamic religions?



> I like a quote from Kazi Nazrul Islam who was Indian bengali but later moved to Bangladesh.
> 
> ‘’I can tolerate Hinduism and Muslims but I cannot tolerate the Tikism (Tiki is a tuft of never cut hair kept on the head by certain Hindus to maitain personal Holiness) and beardism. Tiki is not Hinduism. It may be the sign of the pundit. Similarly beards is not Islam, it may be the sign of the pundit. Similarly beard is not Islam, it may be the sign of the  mollah
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh


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## AusDesi (Jul 20, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> AusDesi ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Ji, 

Where did I say Krishna is only for hindus? Even If I did, I apologize.

Ok it took me ages to figure out what you meant. Im guessing you meant that since Jesus said 'One only go to god through him' then Kazi Narul Islam is wrong. Its possible he is wrong.

btw, that quote was in reply to someone who said why do all religions fight not about abrahamic religions.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 21, 2009)

Dear All,

Originally all religions were meant to help people to progress on spiritual lines towards god and become a Guru willed (ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ) person but lately all of the religions have become institutionalized and want to control the followers and forgotton spiritual principles as written in their holy scriptures. There is the same light of God inall of us veiled by Houmai-you remove it with humility the Higher Power of Higher Self wil shine. Kabir said in his slokes that same light tells every one what is goo or bad, right or wrong but;

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਸਭ ਬਾਤ ਜਾਨਤ ਹੀ ਅਉਗਨੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ਕਾਹੇ ਕੀ ਕੁਸਲਾਤ ਹਾਥਿ ਦੀਪੁ ਕੂਏ ਪਰੈ ॥

_Kabīr man jānai sabẖ bāṯ jānaṯ hī a¬ugan karai, Kāhė kī kuslāṯ hāth ḏīp kū¬ė parai._

Kabir, the mortal knows every thing, and knowing, he still makes mistakes; what good is a lamp in one’s hand, if he falls in to well? -----Kabir Sloke, 216, AGGS, Page, 1376-4

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Satyaban (Jul 21, 2009)

Namaste AusDesi:
I read the Gita some years ago and took from many things. Krishna told Arjuna and in a sense all of us to do whatever our duty is. Of course Arjuna was a warrior and his duty was to enter into battle. I recall in Krishna's' urgings he said something like go ahead and kill them because "they were already dead" their fate was sealed and destiny. It is also a primer on the different yogas which I think many miss. The Gita is not scripture to us as it is to you.

I am curious about what an "Advaita/Vaishnavite" is. I thought you all's school was dualistic. Is this not so? Am I right in assuming you are not a member of ISKCON? One more question. I know there are what to be 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu? Have all 10 occurred or are there more to come? The only two I know are Rama and Krishna.

Thanks for hearing all my questions but it may also help other members.

Om shanti shanti Om
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2009)

Either Satyaban ji or AusDesi ji

I too am curious whether one can be an adherent of Advaita and a Vaishnavite? It is my understanding that these are distinct branches of sanatan dharma, with a different sense of the nature of the supreme power and philosophical explanation of the divine reality. Please clarify.


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## Satyaban (Jul 22, 2009)

Well speaking for myself I believe in the philosophy of non-dualism,that is reality is composed of one whole principle God with no independent parts. As I have said before "All is Shiva and there is nothing without Shiva". which means there is nothing outside of Shiva and there is nothing without Shiva's essence.

It is my understanding that though largely dualistic devotees of Lord Vishnu  range from Madhva's pure dualism to Ramanuja's qualified nondualism. Then there is Vallabha's nearly monistic vision that God and soul are everlastingly distinct.Therefore upon liberation from the cycles of rebirth the soul's destiny is to eternally worship and enjoy Him. Bhakti yoga being the highest path.

That is about all I know and that I accept them as brothers with my arms spread wide. Of course this is knowledge I gained Shaivite sources to include "Dancing With Shiva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami. That is one heck of a name to learn but it is a good little book of 900 plus pages.
Call on me anytime and I will share what little I know or find out for you.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2009)

Satyaban ji

Thank you and you are very generous to make that offer. I will wait for AusDesi to respond before I respond. I have a different understanding of Advaita. Nondualistic, yest. But other places where we may disagree.

My question however stands -- how can one adhere to Advaita and Vashnaivism at the same time? I think it is a fair question.


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## AusDesi (Jul 22, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Namaste AusDesi:
> I read the Gita some years ago and took from many things. Krishna told Arjuna and in a sense all of us to do whatever our duty is. Of course Arjuna was a warrior and his duty was to enter into battle. I recall in Krishna's' urgings he said something like go ahead and kill them because "they were already dead" their fate was sealed and destiny. It is also a primer on the different yogas which I think many miss. The Gita is not scripture to us as it is to you.


Namaskar Satyaban Ji, 

First of all, Let me say I would be an idiot if I expected everyone in the world to accept Bgavad Gita as a scripture. I do not treat Bible or the Quran as scripture. However, I give them the respect that they have alot of knowledge and they could be one of the paths to god as well. 

Now, I have looked through chapter 2 and 3 which I thought would have this quote but I cannot find it in my gita at home. Would you mind sending me the verse and the chapter. 

Now, Krishna does say that soul is not killed when the body dies and how everyone who is born will die and will be reborn. I guess that could be looked at as urgings to kill in a way but that is just difference of opinion. However, Krishna doesn't say Arjuna will only kill. Ch 2Verse37 says "If killed you will attain heaven or if victorious you will reign with soverignty over earth. So stand up O'Arjuna, resolved to fight" 


> I am curious about what an "Advaita/Vaishnavite" is.


Problem with the modern day 'ism's and 'ite's is that you have to choose one or the other. Who said you cannot pick things out of both? Well I am not the only one to do so. Shankaracharya uses Bhagvad Gita to justify his theories and Gaudiya Vaishnavism also choose it to justify theirs.



> I thought you all's school was dualistic. Is this not so?


I think Advaita and Dvaita are just different views of the same thing. 



> Am I right in assuming you are not a member of ISKCON?


No I am not. I like the fact they have brought people to worship Krishna BUT i think its much more tailored to convert westerners to Iskon than Hinduism or Vaishnavism. 



> One more question. I know there are what to be 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu? Have all 10 occurred or are there more to come? The only two I know are Rama and Krishna.


There are various views but most agree that 9 have come. This is considered to be KaliYuga so Kalki has still to come. Hence, many people claimed themselves to be Kalki. 

These are the 10
 1. Matsya (the fish) 
2. Koorma (the tortoise)
3. Varaha (the boar)
4. Narasimha (the human-lion)
 5. Vamana (the dwarf)
6. Parasurama (the angry man, Rama with an axe)
7. Lord Rama (the perfect man, king of Ayodha)
8. Lord Krishna (the divine statesman) 
9. Balarama (elder brother of Krishna) - This one is sometimes swapped with Buddha
10. Kalki (the mighty worrior)



> Thanks for hearing all my questions but it may also help other members.
> 
> Om shanti shanti Om
> Satyaban


No worries. Let me just say that Beliefs change as a person gains more knowledge. 

Beliefs are quite complex. I have visited and do visit pilgrimages of other sects of hinduism. My devotion doesn't not change. That means I am no longer a Vaishnavite. I don't think so. Infact, i like Krishna more than all other avatars of Vishnu. That means I am a Krishnaite and not a Vaishnavite. If there is such thing as Krishnaite then yes. However, then If i go to Kedarnath does that would mean I am no longer a Krishnaite. 

Now, someone might say I am hindu in the modern day definition as i worship all the sects and Hindu is the wrong name for Sanatana Dharma. Yes that might be true but i have 0 belief in Astrology. That would mean I am no longer follwing Sanatan Dharma.  

Therefore, I think personally I belive that all sects of Hinduism as well as all other major religions are talking about the same one god. Now, people will try to define the attributes and then fight over which set of attributes is right. Therefore, i believe that Brahman is indefinable in the sense that there are countless ways to define it and we haven't got brains with enough processing to come up with all. 

Now I have tried to express my views to make it understandable to all. Its possible that other people's views will not be the same as mine but that is to be expected, we are humans.

OM Shanti Shanti OM


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## AusDesi (Jul 22, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> My question however stands -- how can one adhere to Advaita and Vashnaivism at the same time? I think it is a fair question.


Naryanjot Ji Sat Sri Akal,

Lets be clear I first and foremost adhere to the Bhagvad Gita. 

Now, Shankaracharya was the first one to make Advaita popular. He is the biggest teacher in it. He started 4 Mathas of Advaita. link here:Adi Shankara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He wrote commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. He saw Non-Duality in it. link here: Gita Bhashya - Works of Sankaracharya, Advaita Vedanta and Hindu Sacred Scriptures

Now, Vaishnavism relies on Bhagvad Gita and Bhagvad Purana. They see their beliefs in it. 

I am a mere university student with very little knowledge but if two different beliefs are using the same book to their tell their side of the story. I would think that they are talking about the same thing just with a different opinion. 

So finally, Yes there are many differences between Avdaita and Vaishnavism but there are commonalities too.

You can call "him" Brahman, Krishna or Vishnu, point is you get to him in the end. To be more accurate, you soul gets there at the end.


Problem is that there are those such as ISKON who will not have it any other way except their own.


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2009)

AusDesi ji

Thanks for you reply and I will consider the question further.


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## AusDesi (Jul 22, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> AusDesi ji
> 
> Thanks for you reply and I will consider the question further.



Here is a link which shows Adi Shanakarachrya's commentary in summary. 

Bhagavad Gita Core Principles - ???? ?? ?????????

Though he believed in Brahman Shankaracharya also wrote songs for hindu gods of all sects
_*Na thatho, na matha, na bandur na datha,
Na puthro, na puthri , na bruthyo , na bartha,
Na jayaa na Vidhya, na Vruthir mamaiva,
Gathisthwam, Gathisthwam Thwam ekaa Bhavani.*_

Neither the mother nor the father,
Neither the relation nor the friend,
Neither the son nor the daughter,
Neither the servant nor the husband,
Neither the wife nor the knowledge,
And neither my sole occupation,
Are my refuges that I can depend, Oh, Bhavani,
So you are my refuge and my only refuge, Bhavani.
 
http://www.sankaracharya.org/bhavani_ashtakam.php


_*Aaradhayami mani sannibham athma   lingam,
  Maayapuri hrudaya pankaja sannivishtam,
  Sradha nadhi vimala chitha jalabishegai,
  Nithyam samadhi kusmaira punarbhavai.*_
I worship that Linga,
  Which is in me as my soul,
  Residing in the illusory lotus of my heart,
  Getting bathed by the clear water,
  Of the river of my devotion,
  And worshipped daily by the Lotus,
  Of my meditation for avoiding another birth.

http://www.sankaracharya.org/shiva_manasa_pooja.php


*Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham,
Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer,
Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu,
Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.*

Neither am I mind, nor intelligence ,
Nor ego, nor thought,
Nor am I ears or the tongue or the nose or the eyes,
Nor am I earth or sky or air or the light,
I am Shiva, I am Shiva, of nature knowledge and bliss

http://www.sankaracharya.org/nirvana_shatkam.php



*Angam hare pulaka bhooshanamasrayanthi,
Bhringanga neva mukulabharanam thamalam,
Angikrithakhila vibhuthirapanga leela,
Mangalyadasthu mama mangala devathaya.*

To the Hari who wears supreme happiness as Ornament,
The Goddess Lakshmi is attracted,
Like the black bees getting attracted,
To the unopened buds of black Tamala tree,
Let her who is the Goddess of all good things,
Grant me a glance that will bring prosperity.

http://www.sankaracharya.org/kanaka_dhara_stotra.php


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 22, 2009)

*Bhai Gudas in his Vaar 1 and Pauri 33 writes about the response of Guru Nanak on the question, as to which religion is better;*

ਪੁਛਨਿ ਗਲ ਈਮਾਨ ਦੀ ਕਾਜੀ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਈ ।

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਂਗ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ਲਖਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੋਈ ।

ਪੁਛਨਿ ਫੋਲਿ ਕਿਤਾਬ ਨੋ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਵਡਾ ਕਿ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੋਈ ।

ਬਾਬਾ ਆਖੇ ਹਾਜੀਆ ਸੁਭਿ ਅਮਲਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਦੋਨੋ ਰੋਈ ।

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਦੁਇ ਦਰਗਹ ਔਦਰਿ ਲਹਨਿ ਨ ਢੋਈ ।

ਕਚਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੁਸੰਭ ਦਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਧੋਤੈ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹੋਈ ।

ਕਰਨਿ ਬਖੀਲੀ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਕੁਥਾਇ ਖਲੋਈ ।

ਰਾਹਿ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਗੋਈ ।

_Puchan__ Gal Emaan De Kaji Mullan Ikathay Hoee. Vadda Sang Vartaa-eia Lakh Na Sakai Koee. Puchan Foal Kitab No Hindu Vadda Ke Muslmanoee. Baba Aakhay Haajia Subh Amlaa Vajoh Dono Roee. Hindu Muslaman Douey Dargah Andar Lehan Na Dhoee. Kacha Rang Kusanbh Da PaaNi Dhotai Thir Na Rahoee. Karan Bakheeli Aap Vich Raam Rahim Kuthaey Khloee. Raaeh Saitaani Dunia Goee._

Qazis and Maulvis got together and began discussing religion. A great fantasy has been created and no one could understand its mystery. They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim. Baba replied to pilgrim Hajjis, that, with out good deeds of morality both will have to weep and wail. Only by being a Hindu or a Muslim one cannot get accepted in the court of the God. As the color of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, like wise the colors of religiosity are also temporary. In their exposition followers of both religions denounce Ram and Rahim. The whole world is following the way of Satan.

Virinder


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## Astroboy (Jul 23, 2009)

> I worship that Linga,
> Which is in me as my soul,



Many ppl think that linga or lingam is male sex organ, but no it isn't.
AusDesi Ji can you throw some light on this matter?


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## AusDesi (Jul 23, 2009)

namjap said:


> Many ppl think that linga or lingam is male sex organ, but no it isn't.
> AusDesi Ji can you throw some light on this matter?



To be honest I can't. My knowledge does not extend to Shaivism. I know very little only from temples in India and Shivaratri. 

All I know is that there are 12 jyotirlingas in India. 1 of which I want to visit. That being the Ujjain Mahakal. Also, there is a maha shivratri and the month of saavan is special for Shiva. There ends my knowledge. 

It would be great if our friend Satyaban ji could shed light on the matter.


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## Satyaban (Jul 23, 2009)

namjap said:


> Many ppl think that linga or lingam is male sex organ, but no it isn't.
> AusDesi Ji can you throw some light on this matter?


 
namjap ji:

The Shiva lingum so misunderstood. The lingum sure looks like a male organ in a what vulva. It is the image of divinity the first icon of Lord Shiva worshipped as Parasiva "Transcendant Shiva" Siva the Absolute Reality, plus Shiva as creator. Sorry for the white lingam which is much too big and I can't remove it.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Satyaban (Jul 23, 2009)

namjap ji:

The Shiva lingum so misunderstood. The lingum sure looks like a male organ in a what vulva. It is the image of divinity the first icon of Lord Shiva worshipped as Parasiva "Transcendant Shiva" Siva the Absolute Reality, plus Shiva as creator. Sorry for the white lingam which is much too big and I can't remove it.

Peace
Satyaban 

Let's try this one. I'm a mess ain't I? Mr Low Tech at your service. ROFL


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2009)

Satyaban ji

The pic of the white lingam is not too too big as it is not making the web page stretch. So we can leave it that way. Don't worry.


"male sex organ" is one of several meanings for lingam -- and it is typically depicted emerging from a yoni or female sex organ. Again, different panths within Hinduism and communities of worship have different meanings for Lingam.


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## Astroboy (Jul 23, 2009)

Satyaban Ji and AusDesi Ji,

Let's take these verses a step deeper.


*Adi Sankaracharya's
Nirguna Manasa Puja*
Worship of the Attributeless Spirit
_Translated by Swami Yogananda Sarasvati_
E-Text Source: Advaita Vedanta Library

The disciple said:
1. In the indivisible Satchidananda whose nature is only unconditioned, and which is also the non-dual state, how is worship prescribed?
 2. Where is the invocation (avahana) of the Fullness, and the seat (asana) of the All-supporting How is there washing of the feet (padya), offering of water (arghya) and sipping (achamana) for the limpid and Pure One?
 3. How is there bathing (snana) for the Immaculate, and clothing (vasa) for the womb of the universe? How is there a sacred thread (upavita) for Him who is without lineage and caste?
 4. How is there sandal paste (gandha) for the Unattached, and flowers (pushpa) for the Odorless? What is the jewel (bhusha) of the Undifferentiated? What ornament (alamkara) for the Formless?
 5. What use of incense (dhupa) for the Spotless, or of lamps (dipa) for the Witness of everything? What is here the food-offering (naivedyam) for Him who is satiated only with His own bliss?
 6-7. How does one prepare betel (tambula) for the Rejoicer of the universe? He whose nature is self-luminous consciousness, that Illuminator of the sun and other stars, who is sung by shrutis, how is there for Him the light- waving ceremony (nirajana) What circumambulation (pradakshina) for the Infinite? What prostration (pranama) for the non-dual Reality?
 8. For Him who is unknowable by the words of the Vedas, what praise (stotra) is prescribed? How is there the ceremony of dismissal (udavasana) for Him who is established inside and outside?

The Guru said:
9. I worship the symbol of the Self (atmalinga) shining like a jewel and situated in the heart-lotus within the city of illusion, with the ablutions (abhisheka) of the unsullied mind from the river of faith, always, with the flowers of samadhi, for the sake of non-rebirth.
10. I am the One, the Ultimate. Thus one should invoke (avahayet) Lord Siva. Then one should prepare the seat (asana), that is thinking of the self-established Self.
11. I have no contact with the dust of virtue and sin. Thus should the wise one offer washing of the fet (padya), that is such knowledge destroying all sins.
 12. One should pour forth tha handful of water which is the root - ignorance held from time without beginning. This is verily the water- offering (arghya) of the symbol of the Self.
 13. Indra and other beings drink only the tiny fraction of a drop from the waves of the bliss ocean of Brahman. That meditation is considered as the sipping (achamana).
 14. All the worlds are bathed verily by the water of Brahma's bliss which is indivisible. That meditation is the ablution (abhishechana) of the Self.
15. I am the light of Consciousness without any veil. This thinking is the holy cloth (sad vastram) of the symbol of the Self. Thus should think the wise one.
 16. I am the thread of the garland of all the worlds which are in the nature of the three gunas. This conviction is verily considered here as the highest sacred thread (upavIta).
 17. This manifold world mingled with numerous impressions is supported by me, and by no other. This meditation is the sandal paste (chandana) of the Self.
 18. With the sesamum-flowers in the form of renunciation of the activity of sattva, rajas, and tamas, one should always worship (yajet) the symbol of the Self, for attaing liberation while living.
19. With the non-dual Bel leaves devoid of the triple distinction between the Lord, the guru, and the Self, one should worship (yajet) Lord Siva that is symbol of the Self.
 20. One should think of His incense (dhupa) as the giving up of all impressions. The wise one should show the lamp (dipa) that is the realization of the luminous Self.
 21. The food-offering (naivedyam) of the symbol of the Self is the big rice pudding known as the egg-universe of Brahma. Do drink the sweet nectar of bliss that is the delightful beverage (upasechana) of Mrityu or Lord Siva.
 22. One should remember that cleansing the remnants of ignorance with the water of knowledge, is the washing of hands (hasta prakshalana) of the pure symbol of the Self.
 23. Giving up the use of the objects of passion, this is the chewing of betel (tambula) of Lord Siva, the supreme Self who is devoid of the attributes beginning with passion.
24. Knowledge on one's own nature of Brahman, most shining, and burning to destruction the darkness of ignorance, that is here the waving of lights (nirajana) of the Self.
25. The vision of the manifold Brahman is the ornament (alamkritam) with garlands. Then one should remember the vision of the all- blissful nature of the Self, as the handful of flowers. (pushpanjali).
 26. Thousands of Brahma's mundane eggs revolve in me, the Lord, whose nature is immovable and steady like a heap. This meditation is the circumambulation (pradakshina).
 27. I am verily worthy of a universal salutation. Apart from my true Self, none is so worthy of salutation. This reflection is verily here the salutation (vandana) of the symbol of one's own Self.
 28. The idea of the unreality of duties is termed as the saintly act (sat kriya) of the Self. Thinking of the Self as being beyond names and forms, this is the praise of his name (nama kirtana).
29. The hearing (shravana) of that God is the thought of the unreality of things to be heard of. The reflection (manana) of the symbol of the Self is the thought of the unreality of things to be reflected on.
 30-31. Knowledge of the unreality of things to be contemplated upon, is the deep meditation (nididhyasana) of the Self. Devotedness to the Self by the absence of all delusion and distraction, is named the perfect steadiness (samadhi) of the Self; and not delusion of one whose mind rests on something else. This is called the eternal reposeof the mind (chitta vishranti) in Brahman itself.
32-33. Thus performing till death or even for a moment this worship of the symbols of one's own Self, which is expounded according to Vedanta, one who is well concentrated should give up the illusion of all bad impressions, as dust from the feet. Having shaken off the mass of ignorance and pain, one attains the bliss of liberation. 

Maya Panchakam << Home >> Nirvana Dasakam


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## Lee (Jul 23, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> *Jesus said, "I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me." (John.14:6)*


 
I have often pondered over this one, as I have belived for many years that all religion says the same thing.  Then a wonderful thing happend that helped me understand this a little more.

I found out about Sikhi.  For the first time I read Gurbani that instead of concentrating on 'do this and don't do that' endevored to show that religion is much more simpler than we belive.

Guru ji teaches us that indeed we do need intersetion to 'come to the father'

The bit missed out in the quote from the Bible above reads '...and the truth and the light...'  Man that sounds very Sikh to me.

If all Gurus share the same jot, that is the same light of divinity, can it not be said then that all of Gods prophets share the same jot?

Are all Gurus there to show us the way?  Indeed Gu and Ru, the light bringer, the one who sheds light on our ignorance, the blessed teacher, who shows us the truth.

Imagine then would the above qoute look out of place in Guru Granth Sahib.  Could Nanak ji not have procliamed:

'I am the way and the truth and the light, and nobody comes to the father, but through me.'

Without fear of contradiction?  I belive that he could have, don't you?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 23, 2009)

Dear All,

There is only one Faith/Dharma of righteousness on this earth – to truthfully obey the Eternal Laws of Mother Nature/Divine Will. This should become an individual's internal "law," to which obedience must be given if he aspires to live in accordance with the Absolute Creative Principle. Guru Nanak ponders about it in Raag Basant;

ਏਕੋ ਧਰਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਸਚੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਸੋਈ ॥ 

_Ayko Dharam Dirrhai Such Koyee, Gurmat Pooraa Jug Jug So-ee._

Let everyone grasp the truth that there is only one sole faith of righteousness. One guided by the Master, age after age stays perfect.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1188-15

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Astroboy (Jul 24, 2009)

> Could Nanak ji not have procliamed:
> 
> 'I am the way and the truth and the light, and nobody comes to the father, but through me.'
> 
> Without fear of contradiction?  I belive that he could have, don't you?


On the contrary, you will NOT find such egotistical statements made by the Guru.

For example, this is what you'll get to read and hear:-

ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ 
मः १ ॥ 
Mėhlā 1. 
First Mehl: 

ਚਿਲਿਮਿਲਿ  ਬਿਸੀਆਰ  ਦੁਨੀਆ  ਫਾਨੀ  ॥ 
चिलिमिलि बिसीआर दुनीआ फानी ॥ 
Cẖilimil bisī▫ār ḏunī▫ā fānī. 
The extravagant glamour of the world is a passing show. 

ਕਾਲੂਬਿ  ਅਕਲ  ਮਨ  ਗੋਰ  ਨ  ਮਾਨੀ  ॥ 
कालूबि अकल मन गोर न मानी ॥ 
Kālūb akal man gor na mānī. 
My twisted mind does not believe that it will end up in a grave. 

ਮਨ  ਕਮੀਨ  ਕਮਤਰੀਨ  ਤੂ  ਦਰੀਆਉ  ਖੁਦਾਇਆ  ॥ 
मन कमीन कमतरीन तू दरीआउ खुदाइआ ॥ 
Man kamīn kamaṯrīn ṯū ḏarī▫ā▫o kẖuḏā▫i▫ā. 
I am meek and lowly; You are the great river. 

ਏਕੁ  ਚੀਜੁ  ਮੁਝੈ  ਦੇਹਿ  ਅਵਰ  ਜਹਰ  ਚੀਜ  ਨ  ਭਾਇਆ  ॥ 
एकु चीजु मुझै देहि अवर जहर चीज न भाइआ ॥ 
Ėk cẖīj mujẖai ḏėh avar jahar cẖīj na bẖā▫i▫ā. 
Please, bless me with the one thing; everything else is poison, and does not tempt me. 

ਪੁਰਾਬ  ਖਾਮ  ਕੂਜੈ  ਹਿਕਮਤਿ  ਖੁਦਾਇਆ  ॥ 
पुराब खाम कूजै हिकमति खुदाइआ ॥ 
Purāb kẖām kūjai hikmaṯ kẖuḏā▫i▫ā. 
You filled this fragile body with the water of life, O Lord, by Your Creative Power. 

ਮਨ  ਤੁਆਨਾ  ਤੂ  ਕੁਦਰਤੀ  ਆਇਆ  ॥ 
मन तुआना तू कुदरती आइआ ॥ 
Man ṯu▫ānā ṯū kuḏraṯī ā▫i▫ā. 
By Your Omnipotence, I have become powerful. 

ਸਗ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀਬਾਨ ਮਸਤਾਨਾ ਨਿਤ ਚੜੈ ਸਵਾਇਆ  ॥
सग नानक दीबान मसताना नित चड़ै सवाइआ ॥
Sag Nānak ḏībān masṯānā niṯ cẖaṛai savā▫i▫ā.
Nanak is a dog in the Court of the Lord, intoxicated more and more, all the time.

ਆਤਸ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਖੁਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਖੁਦਾਇਆ  ॥੨॥
आतस दुनीआ खुनक नामु खुदाइआ ॥२॥
Āṯas ḏunī▫ā kẖunak nām kẖuḏā▫i▫ā. ||2||
The world is on fire; the Name of the Lord is cooling and soothing. ||2||


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## Lee (Jul 24, 2009)

Point taken Namjap ji however do you not see this:

'By Your Omnipotence, I have become powerful.' as being slightly egotistical?  

Beside the point I was making is that in Sikhi we know that we need Guru to reach God, I belive that the quote from the Bible is merely saying the same thing.

The actual words used may be read as egotistical, but are they really in the context I have suggested?  Or is it Jesus just telling us the truth, you can't reach for God with the help of thoes that God has sent to help you.

What does Guru ji mean when he says that that God has made him powefull?  Seen on it's own it to can certianly be read as egotistical, it says 'I am the man' However as we know you really can't segment Guru Granth Sahib, you must read the whole to glean the meaning.  Perhaps then a reading of the whole of John 14 in the Bible may change you mind about whether that single line is egotistical?


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## Astroboy (Jul 24, 2009)

Lee Ji,

Sorry for using the word egotistic. Maybe a more reasonable word can be suggested.
Thousand Apologies.


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## Lee (Jul 24, 2009)

namjap said:


> Lee Ji,
> 
> Sorry for using the word egotistic. Maybe a more reasonable word can be suggested.
> Thousand Apologies.


 

Heh Namjap ji,

Please sir no need to applogise, we can only ever say how we see things, and we all see things differantly.  Once again I am reminded of what divirse peoples God has choosen to populate this world with.  Personly I celebrate this divirsity as just one example of Gods greatness, for some reason it truely make me happy.


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## satnamr46 (Jul 24, 2009)

Dear NamJap ji ,
I have consulted Prof. Sahib Singh,s translation  Of:ਮਨ ਤੁਆਨਾ ਤੂ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
मन तुआना तू कुदरती आइआ ॥ 
Man ṯu▫ānā ṯū kuḏraṯī ā▫i▫ā. 
and it is  not: By Your Omnipotence, I have become powerful. 
Prof Sahib Singh translates   ਹੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ!) ਤੂੰ ਤੁਆਨਾ (ਬਲਵਾਨ) ਹੈਂ, ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਨਾਲ (ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ। (My Lord)You are Omnipotent,It is with thy grace that I have come to this world.
Respectfully,
Satnam Singh Randhawa

satnamji - I removed it for you.


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## satnamr46 (Jul 24, 2009)

Dear All
I apologise for that frown symbol in the preceding post. i do not know how it got in 
Thanks. Satnam Singh Randhawa


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## Astroboy (Jul 24, 2009)

> मन तुआना तू कुदरती आइआ ॥
> Man ṯu▫ānā ṯū kuḏraṯī ā▫i▫ā.
> and it is  not: By Your Omnipotence, I have become powerful.
> Prof Sahib Singh translates ਹੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ!) ਤੂੰ ਤੁਆਨਾ (ਬਲਵਾਨ) ਹੈਂ, ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਨਾਲ (ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ। (My Lord)You are Omnipotent,It is with thy grace that I have come to this world.
> ...



This seems like a better translation, not only word to word but meaning to meaning as well. 

Lee Ji started the conversation and Satnam Ji brought out the true meaning. 

Thanx to both of you.


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## JimRinX (Jul 25, 2009)

To All SPN jis
In my studies of the many religions of the world, I've sought to find the 'link' that will lead me back to the one ancient religion that all people practiced when we were still but a single 'tribe'.
Though I'm not a Hindu - and I can see how you might consider it vulgar or insulting, or as something shameful to have be a part of your Holiest Practices; I will never believe that, at least at one time or another in the most distant of pasts, both the Lingam and Yoni represented Genitallia.
This I base on the fact that all of the most ancient beliefs, including the one(s) that Hinduism - though most Ancient itself - evolved from, had, at their hearts, at the core of their philosophies and practices, a strong element that was intended to Guarantee the continued Fertility of the Earth Mother Godddess, and Sky Father God.
You can see a thing similar to a Lingam in the Incan Temple Machu Pichu (and we know that one represented an 'Earth *****'; because the sexless Jesuits smashed all of them but that one, in all of the other 'Rain God/Goddess' Temples that they came across; which had Rites preformed by the same Priests who were responsible for the distribution of water througout the very advanced Irrigation Systems that many of probably 'pan-pacific' cultures employed - like in 'pre-historic' Malaysian and Indonesian Peoples, for example); you can see the entire Male 'Genitil Complex' - aka: including Testicles - in the Graineries of the Dogon People of Africa, who also 'annoint' them (in their case with a mixture of Blood, Mlik, and Millet); and, if you were to go back to Ancient Rome, you'd see *****es aplenty!
I think that a perfectly natiral inclination towards modesty has crept into you beliefs; but then I would not be ashamed to ensure the Fertility of the Earth by pouring Good Things over a Symbolic 'Earth *****' - or into a symbolic 'Earth Vagina'.
Maybe that's just me though!:crazy:


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## Astroboy (Jul 26, 2009)

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧  ॥
मारू महला १ ॥
Mārū mėhlā 1.
Maaroo, First Mehl:

ਮਿਲਿ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ  ॥
मिलि मात पिता पिंडु कमाइआ ॥
Mil māṯ piṯā pind kamā▫i▫ā.
The union of the mother and father brings the body into being.

ਤਿਨਿ  ਕਰਤੈ  ਲੇਖੁ  ਲਿਖਾਇਆ  ॥ 
तिनि करतै लेखु लिखाइआ ॥ 
Ŧin karṯai lekẖ likẖā▫i▫ā. 
The Creator inscribes upon it the inscription of its destiny. 

ਲਿਖੁ  ਦਾਤਿ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਵਡਿਆਈ  ॥ 
लिखु दाति जोति वडिआई ॥ 
Likẖ ḏāṯ joṯ vadi▫ā▫ī. 
According to this inscription, gifts, light and glorious greatness are received. 

ਮਿਲਿ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਗਵਾਈ  ॥੧॥ 
मिलि माइआ सुरति गवाई ॥१॥ 
Mil mā▫i▫ā suraṯ gavā▫ī. ||1|| 
Joining with Maya, the spiritual consciousness is lost. ||1|| 

ਮੂਰਖ  ਮਨ  ਕਾਹੇ  ਕਰਸਹਿ  ਮਾਣਾ  ॥ 
मूरख मन काहे करसहि माणा ॥ 
Mūrakẖ man kāhe karsėh māṇā. 
O foolish mind, why are you so proud? 

ਉਠਿ  ਚਲਣਾ  ਖਸਮੈ  ਭਾਣਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
उठि चलणा खसमै भाणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Uṯẖ cẖalṇā kẖasmai bẖāṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
You shall have to arise and depart when it pleases your Lord and Master. ||1||Pause|| 

ਤਜਿ  ਸਾਦ  ਸਹਜ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਹੋਈ  ॥ 
तजि साद सहज सुखु होई ॥ 
Ŧaj sāḏ sahj sukẖ ho▫ī. 
Abandon the tastes of the world, and find intuitive peace. 

ਘਰ  ਛਡਣੇ  ਰਹੈ  ਨ  ਕੋਈ  ॥ 
घर छडणे रहै न कोई ॥ 
Gẖar cẖẖadṇe rahai na ko▫ī. 
All must abandon their worldly homes; no one remains here forever. 

ਕਿਛੁ  ਖਾਜੈ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਧਰਿ  ਜਾਈਐ  ॥ 
किछु खाजै किछु धरि जाईऐ ॥ 
Kicẖẖ kẖājai kicẖẖ ḏẖar jā▫ī▫ai. 
Eat some, and save the rest, 

ਜੇ  ਬਾਹੁੜਿ  ਦੁਨੀਆ  ਆਈਐ  ॥੨॥ 
जे बाहुड़ि दुनीआ आईऐ ॥२॥ 
Je bāhuṛ ḏunī▫ā ā▫ī▫ai. ||2|| 
if you are destined to return to the world again. ||2||

Ang 989


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## satnamr46 (Jul 27, 2009)

Dear Nam Jap Ji,
to continue with the rest of the shabad:
*He adorns his body and ress in silk robes. **saj kaa-i-aa pat hadhaa-ay. * Purmwieis bhuqu clwey ] *He issues all sorts of commands. **furmaa-is bahut chalaa-ay. * kir syj suKwlI sovY ] *Preparing his comfortable bed, he sleeps. **kar sayj sukhaalee sovai. * hQI paudI kwhy rovY ]3] *When he falls into the hands of the Messenger of Death, what good does it do to cry out? ||3|| **hathee pa-udee kaahay rovai. ||3|| * Gr GuMmxvwxI BweI ] *Household affairs are whirlpools of entanglements, O Siblings of Destiny. **ghar ghummanvaanee bhaa-ee.*
||  *990*  || pwp pQr qrxu n jweI ] *Sin is a stone which does not float. **paap pathar taran na jaa-ee. * Bau byVw jIau cVwaU ] *So let the Fear of God be the boat to carry your soul across. **bha-o bayrhaa jee-o charhaa-oo. * khu nwnk dyvY kwhU ]4]2] *Says Nanak, rare are those who are blessed with this Boat. ||4||2|| **kaho naanak dayvai kaahoo. ||4||2|| *Thanks.
SAtnam Singh Randhawa


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## Satyaban (Jul 27, 2009)

AusDesi Ji

Referring back to the Gita I can not find that remark either. It must have been a too terse condensing of chpt 2 verses 26-28. My bad. However it caused me to reread much of the Gita and that is its own reward and something I should do regularly. Although it is not a part of my scriptures it is an excellent guide or "how to" to apply the philosophy I try to live by.

Om shanti shanti Om
Satyaban


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## Astroboy (Jul 28, 2009)

YouTube - The Bhagavad Gita


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