# What Does Term 'Excommunication' Mean In Light Of Guru Nanak's Philosophy?



## spnadmin (Feb 16, 2010)

The thread topic is inspired by questions raised in another thread "Action Against Those Honoring Ragi Likely."

The separation that Guru Nanak speaks of is spiritual separation -- in one sense one is ex-communicated or beyond the zone of contact and has not attached to the Guru's feet. Yet the possibility is ever present that one can become re-connected. One can be in re-communication.

Ang 1426 Guru Arjan dev ji

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਵਂ​*ੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਹਣਿ ਲੁੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੰਦੜੀ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੬॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">dhoojai bhaavanaee naanakaa vehan lurrhandharree jaae ||16||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">In the love of duality, O Nanak, the mortals are being washed downstream. ||16||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤਿਹਟੜੇ ਬਾਜਾਰ ਸਉਦਾ ਕਰਨਿ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">thihattarrae baajaar soudhaa karan vanajaariaa ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">In the markets and bazaars of the three qualities, the merchants make their deals.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸਚੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਲਦਿਆ ਸੇ ਸਚੜੇ ਪਾਸਾਰ ॥੧੭॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">sach vakhar jinee ladhiaa sae sacharrae paasaar ||17||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Those who load the true merchandise are the true traders. ||17||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਪੰਥਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਭੂਲੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਗਵਾਰਿ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">panthhaa praem n jaanee bhoolee firai gavaar ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Those who do not know the way of love are foolish; they wander lost and confused.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਇ ਕੈ ਪਉਦੇ ਨਰਕਿ ਅੰਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰ ॥੧੮॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">naanak har bisaraae kai poudhae narak andhhyaar ||18||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, forgetting the Lord, they fall into the deep, dark pit of hell. ||18||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਮਾਂਗੈ ਦੰਮਾਂ ਦੰਮ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">maaeiaa manahu n veesarai maangai dhanmaan dhanm ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">In his mind, the mortal does not forget Maya; he begs for more and more wealth.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਹੀ ਕਰੰਮਿ ॥੧੯॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">so prabh chith n aavee naanak nehee karanm ||19||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">That God does not even come into his consciousness; O Nanak, it is not in his karma. ||19||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤਿਚਰੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਥੁੜਂ​*ੀਦੋ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">thichar mool n thhurranaeedho jichar aap kirapaal ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The mortal does not run out of capital, as long as the Lord Himself is merciful.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 5

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸਬਦੁ ਅਖੁਟੁ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਖਾਹਿ ਖਰਚਿ ਧਨੁ ਮਾਲੁ ॥੨੦॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">sabadh akhutt baabaa naanakaa khaahi kharach dhhan maal ||20||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Word of the Shabad is Guru Nanak's inexhaustible treasure; this wealth and capital never runs out, no matter how much it is spent and consumed. ||20||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਖੰਭ ਵਿਕਾਂਦੜੇ ਜੇ ਲਹਾਂ ਘਿੰਨਾ ਸਾਵੀ ਤੋਲਿ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">khanbh vikaandharrae jae lehaan ghinnaa saavee thol ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">If I could find wings for sale, I would buy them with an equal weight of my flesh.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਤੰਨਿ ਜੜਾਂਈ ਆਪਣੈ ਲਹਾਂ ਸੁ ਸਜਣੁ ਟੋਲਿ ॥੨੧॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">thann jarraanee aapanai lehaan s sajan ttol ||21||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">I would attach them to my body, and seek out and find my Friend. ||21||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸਜਣੁ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਦੈ ਸਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">sajan sachaa paathisaahu sir saahaan dhai saahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Friend is the True Supreme King, the King over the heads of kings.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਸਿ ਬਹਿਠਿਆ ਸੋਹੀਐ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥੨੨॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jis paas behithiaa soheeai sabhanaan dhaa vaesaahu ||22||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Sitting by His side, we are exalted and beautified; He is the Support of all. ||22||</td></tr></tbody></table>
Can then in good conscience one human being disconnect another human being from contact with sangat wherein one is guided to the Satguru I am raising this as a moral and ethical question, not as a legalistic question.

Put differently: Are there any values taught to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib that would justify excommunication?


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## kds1980 (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Narayanjot ji

Is it not a well known truth that ram raliya's were excommunicated from sikh panth.As a sikh religion it is our duty to see that if someone is threat to our religion then he/she should be excommunicated from sikh panth


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## spnadmin (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

How is excommunication supposed to be implemented - if indeed it is consistent with the Sikh Rehat Maryada?  and how is it justified in terms of the Sikh Rehat Maryada, or the words of Gurbani itself?  Was the Sikh Rehat Marayada followed in the context of my question?  

This is the article that triggered the original questions offered by another forum member: "Action Likely Against Those who Honor Ragi" 


Were Gurmat values followed in determining who is a threat to the religion in that situation or -- in recent history?


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

How does excommunication help the Sikh religion? or indeed any other religion?


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



BhagatSingh said:


> How does excommunication help the Sikh religion? or indeed any other religion?



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Great question!

Lots of people confuse Sikhi with other dogmatic religions where people are kicked out, ex-communicated and these people then go to the WalMart of religions/denominations and choose one more to their present liking.

The case in point is  "Rev. Alberto Cutié, the popular Miami Beach priest famous for his  Spanish-language television and radio talk shows, cavorting amorously on  a Florida beach with an attractive woman. 
Read more: The Father Cutie Scandal: Sex and the Single Priest - TIME

Alberto Cutié, the popular Catholic priest in Miami who was caught  canoodling with his lady love, has now switched denominations to the  Episcopal Church and plans to marry. 

Miami priest Cutie joins Episcopal Church - Articles of Faith - Boston.com

Sikhi is not based on these  kinds of dogmatic principles.

How can one stop a Sikh from learning because we all know that the wrod Sikh stands for a student?

How can some authourity make someone divorce one from the self?

The basic idea of establishing the Akal Takhat by Guru Hargobind Sahib was to solve the problems that Sikhi faced so it could advance on its spiritual path. Its main objective was and still is to act like a machete to make the Sikhi marg accessible to all who seek to walk the walk.

What the honchos in power have done is to make mockery of this beautiful idea and  induce Hindutva mentality in it rather trying to find ways to totally get rid of it.

 A True Akal Takhat can still do that.

Tejwant Singh
​


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Thanks for replying, but you haven't asnwered the question:
How does excommunication help?

Though, after reading your response, there was another question in my head.
Can one learn his/her way out of Sikhism's principles and still be called Sikh?


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Thanks for replying, but you haven't asnwered the question:
> How does excommunication help?
> 
> Though, after reading your response, there was another question in my head.
> Can one learn his/her way out of Sikhism's principles and still be called Sikh?



The question about ex communication is asked by me several times, the latest in the following thread:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/29127-action-against-those-honoring-ragi-likely-3.html

Define Sikhism's principles and also Sikh.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Well, certain principles like vand shakna are engrained in Human psyche. Sachi kirt karni is an ideal we look up to and again is based on principles engrained in human psyche. but things like Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods: Satyug etc, and so on, you could leave and end up choosing either choose a different set of beliefs or no beliefs at all. If you do taht are you still a Sikh?
maybe I should rephrase the question slightly.
Can one learn his/her way out of Sikhism's beliefs and still be called Sikh?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Ram rai and his followers....
and earlier UDASI followers of the FIRST REBEL in Gurmatt..SRI CHAND son of Guru nanak Ji.....
Sons of Guru Angad Ji...Sons of Guru Amardass Ji....Mohan etc....who wote spurious "bani" under Nanak Chhaap to fool sikhs...
Prithi Chand..and his descendants..who SAT on Thrones and challenged the Gurgadhee of Nanak....the MINAS..who also wrote fake banis...wrote Fake History fo Sikhism...falsified sikh history...
the 22 Fake GURUS who sat in Baba Bakalla..to challenge the Gurgadee of Guru teg Bahadur Ji...
MASANDS who became CORRUPT and began to exploit the Gurus SIKHS for their personal GAIN....
MAHANTS who implemented UDASEE and NIRMALA based Brahminised rituals in Gurdwars under their control, who began to MISUSE these Gurdwaras as Personal Property...

THESE were the THREATS that faced the early SIKHI....and were successfully dealt with.

The Ram rai..the Mina Threats were REAL when the SRM was Formulated in 1930's. Thus Sikhs were advised to stay away from them. The MAHANT threat was done away with when the SIKHS occupied the Gurdwaras and threw out hindu devis moortees and rituals and implemented the SRM/Singh sabha Lehr in 1920-1940.

The REAL MODERN DAY THREATS are the:

1.  Naamdharees which outright rejects the SGGS Gurgadee. and has its own 
     Satguru
2.  The Radha Soami  that hs its own dehdharee Guru as well.
3.  The DERAS of sacha Sauda, Asutosh, Bhaniara saadh, and various BABAS and so 
     called Mahapurashs with their own living dehdharee GURUDOMS which challenge the 
     SGGS or DISTORT the Gurbani.
4. The NIRANKARIS...the Virsa Saadhs of Gobind sadan
5.  The Modern day MAHANTS who occupy the Takhats and successfully infiltrated the 
     SGPC who ignore Rituals in Gurdwaras and Takhats and instead support such 
     practises as condemned in GURBANI.(Blood tilaks, slaughter of goats, artees, talls, 
     ritualsied paaths havans, etc 
     etc )

 There are No Hukmnamhs beign issued to counter the above mentioned REAL THREATS - and IF issued..are IGNORED by the Powers that be due to POLITIC EXPEDIENCY.

   Instead INDIVIDUAL SIKHS..who swear allegiance to SGGS are being Targetted due to 
   POLITICS and NOT welfare fo Sikhi/Gurmatt.:happysingh:


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## spnadmin (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Well, certain principles like vand shakna are engrained in Human psyche. Sachi kirt karni is an ideal we look up to and again is based on principles engrained in human psyche. but things like Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods: Satyug etc, and so on, you could leave and end up choosing either choose a different set of beliefs or no beliefs at all. If you do taht are you still a Sikh?
> maybe I should rephrase the question slightly.
> Can one learn his/her way out of Sikhism's beliefs and still be called Sikh?



Bhagat ji

I am curious why you lump Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods, or Satyug together to ask your question. Why do ou consider Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods or Satyug as "principles" when some of them are not principles but concepts.

My own question is based on something more than semantics or splitting hairs.


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## spnadmin (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

principle |ˈprinsəpəl|
noun
1 a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning : the basic principles of Christianity.
• (usu. principles) a rule or belief governing one's personal behavior : struggling to be true to their own principles | she resigned over a matter of principle.
• morally correct behavior and attitudes : a man of principle.
• a general scientific theorem or law that has numerous special applications across a wide field.
• a natural law forming the basis for the construction or working of a machine : these machines all operate on the same general principle.

Is Satyug a principle or a concept? Are the 4 time periods a principle or a concept? ETC.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Well, I corrected myself and called them beliefs but I guess they could be principles. 


> *a fundamental truth* or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning


For example, belief in God and reincarnation are fundamental to Sikhism. That thing about Satyug although not a fundamental truth, would still come under truth, in SGGS.

A concept is too general.


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## spnadmin (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Is Satyug a principle?


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Well, I corrected myself and called them beliefs but I guess they could be principles.
> 
> For example, belief in God and reincarnation are fundamental to Sikhism. That thing about Satyug although not a fundamental truth, would still come under truth, in SGGS.
> 
> A concept is too general.



Bhagat ji,

Guru Fateh.

In Sikhi there is no belief in Ik Ong Kaar because Ik Ong Kaar _IS_.

Reincarnation is not the fundamental belief of Sikhism either although it is acknowledged in Gurbani because the Hindus believe in it. All the Shabads that mention reincarnation also mention that if one follows Guru's teachings then one can get rid of this belief.

Yugs are used as metaphors because they are in the Vedas and also belong to the  Hindu beliefs. They are not in Sikh beliefs either. Sikhi is pragmatic. So, your question seems a bit off the cuff because Sikh means a student as you know it and how can one stop learning? 

Here is something I wrote about yugs sometimes ago:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/20402-satyug-the-bowl-of-cherries.html#post73870

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 17, 2010)

No one other than myself can make me more or less of a Sikh.  No pronouncement of Akal Takht or any other institution can define my relationship with my Guru.  Akal Takht can make pronouncements, issue Hukamnamas until all those corrupt old guys are blue in the face;  I am still a Sikh.

They cannot kick me out of the Khalsa, either.  If I have broken my Khalsa vows or committed some other serious offense, it is my responsibility to present myself to the local Panj Piyare for discipline.  No institution in "India" has any jurisdiction over this.  (Jis, correct me if I am wrong, please.)

This gets back to the notion of "what is essential to being a Sikh?"  I started a thread about that "Mere Sikhi" - "Mere" being the English word, not the Punjabi.  Unfortunately, there has been only one response.  I would really like some more feedback on this subject.  



Akal Takht can and does from time to time "excommunicate" Sikhs who publicly disagree with them or don't show them the respect that they ought to deserve.  In my eyes this is a political move to help them retain their power.

I can think of one "excommunication" that could help the Panth.  I refer, of course, to the Butcher of Punjab, KP- Gill, who has violated every Sikh principle that I know.  You can see that I of my own volition have excommunicated him by removing the "Singh" from his name. It would certainly clean up the Panth path a bit.

Bur I'm not a jathedar or any such.  I do not issue Hukamnamas and my opinions are just that, opinions.

Let me make clear, however, that I do respect the institution of Akal Takht; my problem is with the corrupt old men who are making a farce of it.

I think "excommunication" is meant to strip the receiver of his Sikh citizenship, making him an illegal alien in his own home.  It is meant to ban him (does shunning really have a place in Sikhi?).  Mostly it is used as a means of quieting dissenters.  That is my observation.


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## arshi (Feb 17, 2010)

> The REAL MODERN DAY THREATS are the:
> 
> 1. Naamdharees which outright rejects the SGGS Gurgadee. and has its own
> Satguru
> ...


 
Well said Gyani ji. These are the real issues that the Sikh Panth must tackle, including how Punjab is drowning itself under the overflowing river of alcohol and drugs, which you quite aptly refer to as one of the 11 rivers in another thread on this forum.

All this infighting is causing unlimited damage to Sikhi - our enemies must be watching all this with glee and satisfaction. Sikhi whilst young is not that young and after hundreds of years we are still debating terms and issues which should have been resolved long time ago (I am not referring to the question of excommunication which is a genuione concern). One only has to look at various forums on the internet to see the kind of issues (often frivolous) we waste so much time on: What should we eat? How should we dress up? Are we better Sikhs if we hang our beards loose rather than grooming them neatly with, say hair fixer, net or thathi? Is it wrong for women to pluck hair on their chins. Where does the mool mantar end? Why the *Gurus* have not used the term 'Waheguru' in SGGS? I could go on.

Whilst *some of these may be important* but should we not concentrate on issues which are relatively far more important, like the ones you mentioned in your post? Another major issue Sikhi must tackle is that we are still not free from the clutches of the evil caste system. We often also discriminate against each other on the basis of trivial issues such as mentioned above.

Kind regards and chardhi kala ji.

Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'


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## kds1980 (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Ram rai and his followers....
> and earlier UDASI followers of the FIRST REBEL in Gurmatt..SRI CHAND son of Guru nanak Ji.....
> Sons of Guru Angad Ji...Sons of Guru Amardass Ji....Mohan etc....who wote spurious "bani" under Nanak Chhaap to fool sikhs...
> Prithi Chand..and his descendants..who SAT on Thrones and challenged the Gurgadhee of Nanak....the MINAS..who also wrote fake banis...wrote Fake History fo Sikhism...falsified sikh history...
> ...



The questions here is not who should be excommunicated who not.The question is whether is their any concept of excommunication in sikhism? 
well the historical reference clearly tell us that concept is in sikhism.

The issue that it is misused is different one.There are lot of things in sikhism that are misused


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Bhagat ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


So one isn't a belief, its true; the other is not even a belief/principle, and the third is a metaphor.
Then perhaps you should enlighten me about the beliefs/principles, etc of Sikhism, then we can go on from there? 


PS In your article and in your reply, you didn't present any passages from SGGS and show how its a metaphor in there. (4 yugs)


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



BhagatSingh said:


> So one isn't a belief, its true; the other is not even a belief/principle, and the third is a metaphor.
> Then perhaps you should enlighten me about the beliefs/principles, etc of Sikhism, then we can go on from there?
> 
> 
> PS In your article and in your reply, you didn't present any passages from SGGS and show how its a metaphor in there. (4 yugs)



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are intelligent enough to find the answers by yourself. Seek and you shall find. After having done that, even about the Yugs, then please share your findings with us.

This is what Sikhi is all about. Learn through interaction and I am waiting to do just that from your own efforts.

Thanks & regards'

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

The questions here is not who should be excommunicated who not.The question is whether is their any concept of excommunication in sikhism? 
well the historical reference clearly tell us that concept is in sikhism.

The issue that it is misused is different one.There are lot of things in sikhism that are misused[/quote]

The issue is well explained in Gurbani of SGGS.

We are advised to STAY AWAY/IGNORE..the SAKAT ..meaning an atheist, agnostic, cynic..etc..(one who is going to lead one astray and away from the path of Gurmatt/Akal Purakh/sikhi)...and IF one meets a SANT...a Holy man who is walking this Path of Gurmatt ..in that case we are advised to..Kichh sunneah..kicch kaheayh..Nanak !! Discuss..have a dialogue..talk..listen....

SO Since the Ram Raiyas..the MINAS..etc were directly competing with GURU SAHIB ( as the Namdharees/Nirankaris/Radha Soamis/Deras/Babas/Saadhs/) are DOING TODAY...and all these come under the definition of  SAKAT !! ..and LEAD YOU AWAY FROM SGGS/GURMATT/TRUE PATH.

GENERAL DYER was bestowed a SIROPA and Robe of Honour at Akal Takhat...in modern times KPGill is being accorded the same treatment (BY NOT CONDEMNING HIM ) Prof GURMUKH SINGH was  kicked out of Akal takhat becasue as a LOW CASTE he challenged the PUJAREES position.
Giani Ditt Singh who is fast becoming aFavourite of DG supporters wrote a CYNICAL PLAY about How his dearest friend  and companion Prof Gurmukh Singh was treated by the religious Powers that be !! Prof Gurmukh Singh ji was NOT a RIVAL GURU..he was not starting a New Rival panth...so he is NOT in the same league as the ram Rai...minas..etc etc or the 22 gurus of Bakala.

THE SGGS is the supreme Akal Takhat. Any action has to be as per SGGS.:happy:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 18, 2010)

So WHAT does the GURU...SGGS has to say.....
Listen Jios...
The Guru says..on Page 450..
Jin antar har har preet hai..te jan sugharr sianneh ram rajeh.
Jo bahron BHUL chuk Boldeh..bhee KHAREH HAR BHANNEH !!

Meaning All those who have the True Love of Har in their hearts..they are worthy of respect - sughharr sianneh wise..educated...
IF these than speak some "unbecoming" words.say the wrong words..disrespectful words....bhull chuk...*STILL THEY ARE BELOVED of the HAR..and He LOVES them* !!

In the context of Singh sahib Darshan Singh ragi Ji....he has a LIFE TIME of Kirtan Parchaar, Katha parchaar, Panthic SEVA, Jathedaree of Akal takhat in tumultous times post 1984, and even IF he has spoken a few words of disrespect ( I say IF becasue he hasnt - its just for arguments sake) His Past RECORD speaks volumes and he is still BELOVED of His GURU..the SGGS for whose satikaar he is fighting tooth and nail. The GURU loves him just as before. The People vested with power at the Takhats hsould have shown the magnanimity of Guru Bestowed ministership to Forgive magnamiously. See the example of GURU ARJUN JI...and Bhatts Satta Balwand Ji....when the Bhatts became annoyed with Guru ji..and went away..first Guru Ji sent his highest SIKHS...to their house to convey Guur Jis message to come back...and when this failed GURU JI WENT IN PERSON and brought them BACK!!

SEE How Guru Arjun Ji walks BAREFOOT to Bhai MOHANS CHUBARA !!! He could have easily SUMMONED bhai Mohan to appear before Him !!

BUT then we are Modern Sikhs..we have no place/thaan for the GURU..our EGOS are too big...how can we let a fly settle on our noses even for a split second !!:happysingh::happykaur::happy:


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## palaingtha (Oct 1, 2012)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



BhagatSingh said:


> How does excommunication help the Sikh religion? or indeed any other religion?



Since a Sikh has cutoff his hair and is being looked upon by his brethern he would like to prove that he is not alone and that there are so many who think like him. And influence other fickle minded persons to follow his footsteps. It is loss to Sikhism.

When India 's population was around 65 crores Sikh population was around 1.8 crores, whereas today India's population is around 110 crores Sikhs account for only 1.2 crores.

Like a dog trapped in a jungle in a hunter's trap would advise its friends to cut off their tails to become just like it. 
We have to safeguard our count do not drop further but increase  through well wishers' efforts. We need pracharaks and not patit Sikhs.


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## palaingtha (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> How is excommunication supposed to be implemented - if indeed it is consistent with the Sikh Rehat Maryada?  and how is it justified in terms of the Sikh Rehat Maryada, or the words of Gurbani itself?  Was the Sikh Rehat Marayada followed in the context of my question?
> 
> This is the article that triggered the original questions offered by another forum member: "Action Likely Against Those who Honor Ragi"
> 
> ...



My reply:-

As per SRM any Sikh who maintains any contact/relations with a person, who was a Sikh with uncut hair has now cut his hair,would be declared as TANKHIA (guilty) and punished. That implies that, Sikhs are individually to observe the dictate of SRM and not have anything to do with such Patit Sikh/s. If every Sikh is honest enough to go by Sikh Tenets as per SRM that person in question would stand excommunicted.
Giani Jarnail Singh Ji has said in one of his threads that it is necessary to decide the excommunication of a Patit Sikh in a Sangat. It is not true. It is mentioned in SRM that a TANKHIA, I repeat a TANKHIA will have to approach a Sikh Sangat whenever he wants to seek remorse for  any of his misdeed for which he has become a TANKHIA (and not when he becomes a Patit by cutting his/her hair).


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## Parma (Oct 8, 2012)

I had to laugh at this one. I think if Guru Nanak was alive today I think personally he would have excommunicated the whole lot of you. No one is good enough in front of guru Nanak your all beneath him! His moral standing is the Guru Granth Sahib. So who is there to gain for Sikhism? You have all done wrong? No one is perfect so who gives anyone the right to excommunicate anyone? No one is more divine, god exists in all! Madness no one controls anyone’s faith you can excommunicate someone from your social circle but life only god has that gift, and that gift is called death. Real excommunication! Funny Thread


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## Luckysingh (Oct 8, 2012)

I was going to leave a comment, but I am NOW officially excommunicated.
So, as a result Palaingtha ji, I couldn't give a monkeys about your obsession with kicking out people from your panth !!!


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## Archived_Member16 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Madness of judging others:*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/17684-madness-of-judging-others.html

I  fully endorse the views of Parma Ji & Luckysingh Ji.  More power to both of you indeed! No one gave such people the authority to act as the Guru! Every soul has his/her own spiritual life path to WALK, and is FREE to do so.

*On the foolishness of judging others* 

"The act of judgement is an act of pride. It involves looking to our own store of knowledge, putting together a few facts, figures or fancies, and coming up with some sort of answer or solution to a given problem or situation. All too often it is the wrong solution or answer, and because of pride, we refuse to correct course. 

Judging others is an act of monumental pride - enormous pride, stupendous pride, galling, astonishing, fantastic pride. This should be understood. When you render judgement on another, you have taken upon yourself an awesome responsibility for making the correct judgement. Because, after all, your judgement is not necessary. 

All things, big and small, invite your judgement. The condition of the weather, political matters, the taste of your food, a television program - at every moment of the day, something or other is inviting your judgement of it. And so often, and so willingly, you render it, without being aware of the consequences, without taking care of the responsibilities entailed. 

You judge, and then to make matters worse, you believe in your judgement. You've looked at the evidence, you've made a judgement - it must be right! There couldn't possibly be any other conclusion to arrive at but the one your've chosen, could there? 

What you don't see, don't understand, is that your judgement leads to suffering - your own suffering. It does not touch the person judged; he or she is free of you and your thoughts and your judgements. You cannot change their behaviour by even a hair's breadth by your judgement." - http://www.well.com/user/queerjhd/sxonthefoolishness.htm


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*

Palaingtha ji, on a more serious matter, now let us review your translations of excerpts of SRM with tremendous liberties you are taking with your interpretations.  I repeat the line in question from SRM as follows,


> *2.AMimRq sMskwr*​ *Amrit Ritual*​ *Note**:*  Following a quote in the above headed section.
> 
> ​ *isrguMm**,* nVI mwr(jo is`K ho ky ieh kMm krn) *dw sMg nhIN krnw*[​ *Having hair before and now shorn*……….   *Not to keep company of*_._​


It appears you are using your own flowery extensions to the essence of what SRM instructs an Amritdhari sikh like yourself.​


palaingtha said:


> ... As per SRM any Sikh who *maintains any contact/relations* with a person, who was a Sikh with uncut hair has now cut his hair,would be declared as TANKHIA (guilty) and punished. That implies that, Sikhs are individually to observe the dictate of SRM and not have anything to do with such Patit Sikh/s. If every Sikh is honest enough to go by Sikh Tenets as per SRM *that person in question would stand excommunicted**.*


Veer ji I trust you are very knowledgeable and experienced and if your stated age is correct, a man of greater experience than perhaps any other active member on this board at spn.

Perhaps your choice of English words is at fault.  The following do not translate into excommunication,

*dw sMg nhIN krnw**... Not to keep company of*

Following are some ways of keeping company:


Marrying someone
Living with someone
Doing a joint business with someone
Being intimately attached to someone
Veer ji the rest is not "*sMg".*


> Excommunication has nothing to do with this statement in the SRM.


Only context of Excommunication in SRM is the power of Akal Takhat Sahib like set ups to take action for people's Anti-Panthic and severely damaging to panth in their scope activities using the Gurmatta process.





> 4.gurmqw krn dI ivDI​ a) gurmqw kyvl aunHW svwlW qy hI ho skdw hY, jo is`K Drm dy mu`Fly AsUlW dI puStI leI hox, ArQwq gurU swihbwn jW gurU gRMQ swihb dI pdvI, bIV dI inrolqw, AMimRq, rihq-bihq, pMQ dI bnwvt Awid nUM kwiem r`Kx bwbq[ hor iksy iksm dy swDwrn (Dwrimk, ividAk, smwjk, pulItIkl) svwl auqy kyvl mqw ho skdw hY [
> 
> A) ieh gurmqw gurU pMQ dw cuixAw hoieAw kyvl SoRmxI jQw jW gurU-pMQ dw pRqIinD iek`T hI kr skdw hY[
> 
> ...


You sir are trying to create one man panth and personal Gurmattas while forgetting about "five pure or Panj Payare" tradition, Akal Takhat Sahib, etc.​ 
I wait for your comments before any further elaboration.  That is if you so choose to respond.

With respect, Sat Sri Akal.


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## kds1980 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



palaingtha said:


> When India 's population was around 65 crores Sikh population was around 1.8 crores, whereas today India's population is around 110 crores Sikhs account for only 1.2 crores.
> 
> .



The above is not true.The sikh population in India after independence was always between 1.9% to 2% which include Keshdhari and clean shaven .It is still between 1.9% to 2% .Nobody knows what is the exact population of Keshadharis


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## palaingtha (Oct 9, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> I was going to leave a comment, but I am NOW officially excommunicated.
> So, as a result Palaingtha ji, I couldn't give a monkeys about your obsession with kicking out people from your panth !!!



My reply:-

Common sense says what I am referring is not my opinion but considered opinion of Sikh Panth's Representatives the SGPC which Institution has accepted the decisions of deliberations of learned Sikhs all over the world and authored and published the SRM. The Panth is Ours, who are Guru's Sikhs.
You use peculiar language to let out your displeasure.
I would ask you to go through SRM and let me know if excommunication is my obsession or it is one of the Sikh Tenets.
Why can't you be bold enough to admit your mistake and if you love Sikhism return to the fold and we will welcome you with our open arms.


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## palaingtha (Oct 9, 2012)

*Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?*



kds1980 said:


> The above is not true.The sikh population in India after independence was always between 1.9% to 2% which include Keshdhari and clean shaven .It is still between 1.9% to 2% .Nobody knows what is the exact population of Keshadharis



The question here is not mathemetical accuracy. It is a fact that Sikhs are diminishing in count. Sikh youth is no longer abiding by Guru Gobind Singh Jis command.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2012)

> Why can't you be bold enough to admit your mistake and if you love  Sikhism return to the fold and we will welcome you with our open arms.



I think he was doing pretty ok before you appointed yourself chief vetter of who is able to call themselves Sikh..........

Personally I am not sure I would want to be anywhere near any fold that thought along the lines you think of. 

What you are peddling is not Sikhism, it is elitism, and even then, it is elitism with your own warped views on witches, imps and caste. 

Out of all the discussions I have had with many members on this forum, your viewpoint, I think, is the least Sikhi I have encountered.


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## palaingtha (Oct 9, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I think he was doing pretty ok before you appointed yourself chief vetter of who is able to call themselves Sikh..........
> 
> Personally I am not sure I would want to be anywhere near any fold that thought along the lines you think of.
> 
> ...



My reply:

You are nobody to judge what I am or not. How the hell are you concerned about me.
I am talking about Patit Sikhs in general. I am not discussing about an individual.
I have said WE (Not I). We means the Sikh community. SRM says one who stands before a Gur Sangat and asks for pardon the Sangat will decide.
YOU ALWAYS REPLY OUT OF CONTEXT. I have already given references from GGs on black magic and rebirths.
If you still have reservations you are not a believer of GGS.
If you or any of your supporters want to challenge me then,first reply to the QUOTATIONS I HAVE PROVIDED IN THE FORUM with page Nos. of GGS on witches and rebirth issues.
Any reply out of these subjects will be treated as RUBBISH. Be a gentleman and confine yourself to subject only. No personal attacks. If you are an honourable and honest man you will abstain frompersonal attacks.
I have no personal interest in discussing. The forum is for discussions of SIKHISM.


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## palaingtha (Oct 9, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I think he was doing pretty ok before you appointed yourself chief vetter of who is able to call themselves Sikh..........
> 
> Personally I am not sure I would want to be anywhere near any fold that thought along the lines you think of.
> 
> ...



My reply:-

You are nobody to judge what I am or not. How the hell are you concerned about me.
I am talking about Patit Sikhs in general. I am not discussing about an individual.
I have said WE (Not I). We means the Sikh community. SRM says one who stands before a Gur Sangat and asks for pardon the Sangat will decide.
YOU ALWAYS REPLY OUT OF CONTEXT. I have already given references from GGs on black magic and rebirths.
If you still have reservations you are not a believer of GGS.
If you or any of your supporters want to challenge me then,first reply to the QUOTATIONS I HAVE PROVIDED IN THE FORUM with page Nos. of GGS on witches and rebirth issues.
Any reply out of these subjects will be treated as RUBBISH. Be a gentleman and confine yourself to subject only. No personal attacks. If you are an honourable and honest man you will abstain from personal attacks.
I have no personal interest in discussing. The forum is for discussions of SIKHISM by all who are members and want to discuss.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2012)

the srm that you love so much, states quite clearly Sikhs should not believe in magic

In any case, I am unable to converse with you any longer, as the ARM that I subscribe to forbids me from debating with bigots,


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## palaingtha (Oct 9, 2012)

harry haller said:


> the srm that you love so much, states quite clearly Sikhs should not believe in magic
> 
> In any case, I am unable to converse with you any longer, as the ARM that I subscribe to forbids me from debating with bigots,




My reply:-

So do I. I have seen many people whose ego is over inflated nearly to bursting point. But not great an egoistic like you. You do not discuss on discussion forum. You are forcing other/s to accept what you believe.
Truth never succumbs and falsehood never survives.


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 9, 2012)

Sat Nam _/|\_

I typically stay quiet on topics like these since I know very little about Sikhi and I'm not a Sikh (at least not yet...though maybe I am...I dunno...anyhooo).  I am wondering though if maybe as an outsider I can see from a valuable perspective.

I wonder if you all wonder how Sikhi looks to outsiders?

To be honest, I think Rehat Maryada was a big mistake.  Sikhi was obviously WaheGuru working to bring Light into the world in the simplest way possible.  Wasn't Sikhi's main message meant to be that only by remembering the One with every breath do we find God.  Only by serving creation do we realize God in all creation.  Only by avoiding obsession with ritual and creed do we make room for God in our lives.  

I feel sad that there is so much time spent on figuring out who is Sikh and who isn't.  And the Rehat Maryada feels more and more to me like the Sikhi version of sharia.  

I know the 5K are important to Sikhi and its community, for example.  But to say Sikhi will be ruined if Sikhs break away from the 5K turns the 5K into something they were never meant to be.  To me the 5K are just a way of identifying as Sikh and using one's body to keep one focused on the Divine.  If 5K makes or breaks a Sikh, what about all the Sikhs and gurus who didn't have the 5K.  

Its bad news if you think Sikhi is something that can be protected by getting rid of ppl who do something against rehat maryada or not having the 5K.  What will destroy Sikhi is...forgetting Waheguru with every breath, obsessing about ritual and dress codes, creating creeds when the Sri Guru Granth Sahib says it only leads away from realizing God.   

The rituals of Sikhi are supposed to come from the heart.  Sikhi is not a religion of codes and creeds. Its a religion for the heart.  Its not supposed to be like other religions which have a list of what makes someone a believer and someone else an unbeliever.  Its supposed to be a remedy for that.  

I hope Sikhs won't destroy their religion by making it what it was against in the first place.

At this point in my journey, I believe a Sikh, according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, is anyone who loves God with every breath and serves God by serving others.  Every ritual a Sikh performs should be filled with love of God also.  I know I am Sikh according to Sikh teachings, but it takes more to become Sikh now because of the "code book" I thought was created to help unite not to confine the Sikh community.

Blessings...
Nam Jiwan


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## Luckysingh (Oct 9, 2012)

I suspect that Palaingtha is a cover name for yourself and that you are in fact a ''Head'' and pioneer of some dera. 
Well if I be wrong, then sorry if I offended.
However, let me suggest that although it may be a little late in terms of your age, you can still may some juicy bucks by becoming a head of a dera or your own panth as I gather you can run the operation very smoothly.
It seems that you have ALL the qualities that are needed for running such an organization.


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## Archived_Member16 (Oct 9, 2012)

*My  Spiritual Guru Ji  ( guide / master/ mentor ) is "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji", NOT the Sikh Reht Maryada ( approved & published in 1945 by S.G.P.C. ), or for that matter not the Akal Takht Jathedar!*


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## palaingtha (Oct 11, 2012)

namji{censored}aur said:


> Sat Nam _/|\_
> 
> I typically stay quiet on topics like these since I know very little about Sikhi and I'm not a Sikh (at least not yet...though maybe I am...I dunno...anyhooo).  I am wondering though if maybe as an outsider I can see from a valuable perspective.
> 
> ...



My reply:-

I appreciate the way you write. You have written what you believe in.
Sikhism originated with the advent of Guru Nanak. He saw the humanity was groping in falsehood, Pandits were fleecing the ignorant people at large and the rulers spreading injustice over the ruled.  Sikhism spread in many parts of India and progressed.
It culminated with the inauguration of Sikh Panth. At that juncture the Moghul Rulers were bent upon converting the whole populace of India into Islam. When other means to bring the Rulers to senses failed Guru Gobind Singh Ji took to safe guard the honour and religion of the entire populace who were Non-Muslims. The daughters of Non-Muslims were forcibly taken by Muslim Rulers
Khalsa was created and Guru said "Sawa Lakh se ek ladaoon" and "in a crowd of thousands my Sikh would be prominent with his appearance"
These were the traits we have to maintain. A Sikh without his hairs on his head is NO SIKH. For the cause of Panth's unity we have to maintain our appearance of a Sikh and live the life of a Sikh as per the teachings of our Ten Gurus  or the SGG Sahib.


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