# Controversy Surrounding Prof Darshan Singh Ji



## Admin (Nov 13, 2009)

THE FACTS  

Professor Darshan Singh, a former Jathedar of The Akal Takht, has for several decades dazzled Sikhs around the world with his inspiring kirtan and erudite discourses on gurbani. 

He has also been quite courageous, forthright and outspoken about the anti-Sikh and anti-Sikhi goings-on in India and Punjab since 1984. 

Through the last two decades, his integrity has been attacked by a handful over and over again. Through time, the allegations have been found to be wild and baseless. 

The most recent one is over his views on the Dasam Granth. He is now being accused of making derogatory remarks about Guru Gobind Singh! 
  　  
  QUESTIONS TO PONDER *- 
*

*To those who have known him these past few decades through his kirtan and discourse, do you think it is reasonable to believe, or at all feasible, that Prof. Darshan Singh would make derogatory remarks about Guru Gobind Singh or say anything which could in anyway be designed to be hurtful to his memory? 

* 
*- Why has he been the focal point of repeated and relentless attacks? * 
*
- Even if we disagree with his views on any subject, is it right for any of us to attack him personally and accuse him of being an "enemy of Sikhi"? * 
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- How should the community deal with such allegations against its highly respected Elders? 
*


*http://www.sikhchic.com
*


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## ranghi29 (Nov 13, 2009)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*

Prof. Darshan Singh was myfavorite ragi...until i heard his views on Dasam Granth.. He believes that Dasam patshia's Bachitar Nattak and many of other banis of dasam guru are not written by Guru Ji himself... He is really good ragi but i don't think he's bigger Gyani than Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale.. Sant Muskeen Singh.. Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji.. Bhai Balbir Singh.. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji ... And Biggest gyani of them all BRHAM GYANI BABA DEEP SINGH JI... who all have not only read Dasam Granth but also studied it word by word.. all know the meaning of every word... Sant Jarnail SIngh ji khalsa aloso said that if you don't believe in Dasam Granth bani and its  you are nothing but a "NASTAK" ATHEIST... in my eyes he is nothing but an athiest..


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## Admin (Nov 14, 2009)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*

Elsewhere on Internet, there are some interesting debates going on this topic...

_*Conversation about this article on sikhchic.com
*_ 
*1: Sanmeet Kaur (Brampton, Ontario, Canada), November 11, 2009, 11:39 AM.
* 
 A Sikh is answerable to his Guru. However, most of us who are quick to malign don't actually know what is it exactly we are protesting against. Prof. Sahib is a public figure and does not shy away from controversy to make his point. We must admit we still have a lot to gain and learn from him. And that is the point of Sikhi - to learn. Even if one disagrees with his opinion or the manner in which he makes it, to accuse any Sikh of being an enemy of Sikhi is shameful and indecent in itself. Clearly, those who do so do not see the Guru Granth Sahib as their 'partakh' Guru. The Roundtable forum seems to me an ideal way to find out how the lay Sikh, one without any political agenda, feels about this. 

*2: Bicky Singh (Ontario, Canada), November 11, 2009, 12:29 PM.*

 I have actually seen Prof. Darshan Singh at a Gurdwara recently where he did discuss the validity of the Dasam Granth. The example that he provided seemed to support his contention that historically, there has been an injection of extraneous materials into the Dasam Granth, some of which is totally inconsistent with Sikhi. I have seen the latest extract from a video which is being used to criticize him, and from the expression on Prof. Darshan Singh's face, and what he is saying, it appears that all he is doing is giving another example of the wrong type of material that has found its way into the Dasam Granth, and not presenting it as someting he agrees with! If his giving such an example of an offensive text is to be taken as hurtful in itself, or an insult to the memory of the Guru, why didn't anyone in the sangat step up and confront him at that time? No one did, because they had heard his entire discourse and knew what he was saying! We need to see the context in which anythig is being presented. I don't think that Prof. Darshan Singh made any derogatory remarks against any of our Gurus in either of the examples that are being bandied about. I think we need to have some open discussion and open minds to see what angle the presenter is coming from. There does seem to be a lack of understanding within the community to see things from another's viewpoint. 

*3: Chintan Singh (San Jose, California, U.S.A.), November 11, 2009, 1:23 PM.
* 
 I have only heard Prof. Darshan Singh's excellent kirtan and gurbani discourses, and do not know of his feelings on 1984, etc. I believe anyone who makes a point and has strong opinions about a subject matter in our community is repeatedly and relentlessly attacked whether it is Hew McLeod, Dr. I.J. Singh, etc. I believe we as a community lack the maturity to accept people's points as their own views on the subject and respectfully agree to disagree with their views. I cannot imagine Prof. Darshan Singh making any wrong remarks about Guru Gobind Singh or being an enemy of Sihi. If anyone was to listen to his CD, "Sikhi de Pehchan", one would know how passionate he is about Sikhi, even if one were to disagree with any of the thoughts presented in that CD. Again, we as a community have a tendency to jump to conclusions without fully analyzing and understanding the individuals comments. It's the same situation about the matter of Chairs in Sikh Studies. Simply, because some don't agree with some of the things Hew McLeod wrote about Sikhism, they have decided to oppose the very idea of having Sikh Studies offered in universities. In my opinion, the community (perhaps the Akal Takht or a regional body that can adequately represent the diaspora community) needs to create a forum where such matters can be heard, analyzed and discussed without allegations and personal attacks. This Round Table can serve as that forum. It would be informative to hi critics to first know what Prof. Darshan Singh has in fact said about the Dasam Granth, for example, before condemnng him. 

*4: Ashveer Pal Singh (Berkeley, California, U.S.A.), November 11, 2009, 5:13 PM.
* 
 Since I do not know much about Prof. Darshan Singh, I would like to address the third question. Certain groups accord certain individuals great titles: 'Bhai', 'Sant', 'Baba', 'Gurmukh', etc. As if these categories are somehow objective, when in fact often these individuals do not necessarily meet any specific criteria of spiritual achievement, but rather fit a certain set of ideals that are already promoted by a group/jatha/community. What this inevitably leads to are false claims of 'real' or 'pure' Sikh knowledge that further fractures the community, on personal frolics based on caste, class and level of understanding, rather than actual scriptural/theological grounds. 

*5: Raj (Canada), November 11, 2009, 5:33 PM.
* 
 Give me a break. I can't imagine Professor Sahib making such remarks about Guru Sahib. He has dedicated his life to spreading the word of the Gurus. I'm just going to give you an example here. In 1984, after the attack on The Darbar Sahib, most of th Sikh leadership went into hiding, including the Badals. Prof. Darshan Singh was not afraid of speaking openly against Indira and his psychophant, Zail Singh. In his kirtan at Bangla Sahib, while singing the shabad "Jabe ban agyo tabe ros jagyo", he referred to Zail Singh as "Indira da chamcha" and Indira as "Zalim". This is when every Hindu organization was singing praises of Indira. I have a recording of that discourse. This man has a lots of guts and is not afraid to openly challenge any misconceptions. The question of the Dasam Granth is long overdue and has been pushed under the rug by the S.G.P.C. for too long. When was the last time the S.G.P.C. or the Akalis addressed anything to its concluson? Anyway, there has never been any attempt to bring in theologians, linguists, historians or any other experts from different position to go over this issue. An ordinary person may be well intentioned, but lacks the scruitiny of a scholar. This issue is for scholars, not babas or local, self-proclaimed gyanis, for that matter. There's enough material in the Dasam Granth that begs closer scrutiny. If it doesn't align with gurbani and the lives and teachings of the Gurus, then someone has to explain it's merit to the ordinary folks and why it shouldn't be filed away as merely being of historical curiousity and no more.

*6: Gurjender Singh (Maryland, U.S.A.), November 11, 2009, 7:25 PM.
* 
 I like the style of Prof. Darshan Singh's kirtan, as he gives all the examples from Guru Granth, including when he refers to the 1984 attack and massacres. Because of his wisdom and spirtuality, he was appointed to be Jathedar of the Akal Takht. He refused to bow down to the S.G.P.C., and he quit the post when it became impossible for him to function independently. He is one of a very few gyanis who know Guru Granth by heart. We should respect his knowledge and teachings instead of criticizing him. I have listened to his kirtan from Takht Sri Hazur Sahib Sahib on the 400th anniversary of the investiture of Guru Granth. He clearly mentioned that Guru Gobind Singh gave the gur-gaddi to only Guru Granth, and not to any other granth, including the Dasam Granth. One cannot equate the Dasam Granth with the Guru Granth Sahib. But we should also respect the Dasam Granth. This is our bad luck that the Sikh leadership does not recognize the real value of a person like Prof. Darshan Singh. I think the time has come for the community to ensure a full recording of all his dscourses on DVD to be used for TV broadcast or home viewing and take advantage of his extensive knowledge and wisdom.

*7: Gopal Singh (Sweden), November 12, 2009, 4:55 AM.
* 
 Here are some more facts that need to be considered: 1) Prof. Darshan Singh had been doing kirtan from the same compositions which he is now criticising. 2) He is hobnobbing with those groups who publicly deplore even the Jaap Sahib. 3) He now takes every opportunity to discuss Dasam Granth in the sangat and rake up unnecessary controversy. And controversy beckons controversy. 4) He publically congratulated the Gurdwara of Finland which changed the first pauree of the Ardaas. So the question to be asked is why would he now criticise the banees for which he once had high respect? All the examples of his contribution in the pre- and post- 1984 eras is connected to his kirtan based on the compositions from the Dasam Bani. So the question which should also be asked is this: Should people's beliefs in gurbani be connected with other mortals' assumptions? When he believed in the Dasam Bani, his supporters believed in it too. Now when he criticises it, the sangat listens to him. 

*8: Mehtab Kaur (New Delhi, India), November 12, 2009, 9:27 AM.
* 
 The allegations listed by S. Gopal Singh are excellent examples of how half-truths and innuendo are used by those who go after the likes of Prof. Darshan Singh. Let me address each of them, using the same number scheme he uses: 1) Prof. Sahib often does kirtan from the verses in the Dasam Granth ... but from the passages that are clearly ascribed by scholars to Guru Gobind Singh, and those that are consistent with Sikhi. His criticism is not directed against all of the contents of the Dasam Granth, only to the passages that have been interjected by outside and vested interests. And the thrust of his objection is for the Dasam Granth being given any status of a Guru or scripture. 2) Hobnobbing with groups? By writing for or speaking to those who disagree with you - like the readers of sikhchic.com - are you hobnobbing with us? Does that taint you or your judgement? 'Hobnobbing' is a loaded term which by itself means nothing except mischief on the part of the one pointing the finger. 3) He has of course taken upon himself to - because no one else dares to take on the ignorant and the mischief-makers - tackle headlong those who even suggest that Dasam Granth is to be treated like scripture. He merely wants to clarify the fact that Dasam Granth IS NOT GURBANI in the sense the Guru Granth is! It is in the best interest of the community that Prof. Sahib continue this mission until the matter is laid to rest. But I'm baffled by your suggestion that he does not have the right to speak his mind ... merely because you disagree with him. THAT is the crux of the problem! 4) So, he publicly congratulated the Finland Gurdwara? He doesn't have the right to? Surely, you too have the right to publically criticize the same Gurdwara and Prof. Darshan Singh as well. As long as you stay within the norms of proper behaviour - that is the Sikh thing to do! Finally, all I have to say is: it's not what one person thinks or says, or how much others disagree with him; it is how we express ourselves within the boundaries of civilized - call it 'Sikh", if you will - behaviour! 

*9: Gurinder Singh (Stockton, California, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 10:18 AM.
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 Prof. Darshan Singh ji has been singing Dasam Granth Bani all his life. Suddenly, it appears, he has become critical of some of the passages. Why?

*10: Gopal Singh (Sweden), November 12, 2009, 11:20 AM.
* 
 I have recordings of Prof. Darshan Singh doing kirtan from Krishnavtar, Ramavtar, even Charitropakhyan and Chandi Charittar - all passages from the Dasam Granth. And now he criticizes these verses. Also, giving a lecture in a function organized by those who openly reject the Jaap Sahib and endorsing their views is, in my view, 'hobnobbing'. Similarly, a Gurdwara that has changed the Ardas is, in my view, anti-Panthic.

*11: Mehtab Kaur (New Delhi, India), November 12, 2009, 1:58 PM.
* 
 In answer to the posts of S. Gurinder Singh and S. Gopal Singh: I believe Prof. Darshan Singh ji jumped into the fray when, post-1984, some mischievous elements - egged on by Hindu fundamentalists and other vested interests - began raising controversies within the Sikh community. One of these new issues was the bizarre suggestion that the Dasam Granth should be equated with the Guru Granth Sahib, and in some cases, some people even insisted on having prakash of it beside the Guru Granth Sahib as Guru. It is this silliness that got Prof. Sahib to raise his voice against the mischief and clear the air. He is not against the Dasam Granth per se: all he is saying is that it is not gurbani, certainly it is not scripture, and portions of it are apocryphal. Leading Sikh scholars agree with him. His critics are not scholars - just busy-bodies who have taken it upon themselves to become loud-mouths, without any claim to spiritual wisdom or knowledge. [For me, the issue is easier to resolve when I see the towering spiritual figure of Prof. Darshan Singh on one side, and a handful of rude, unmannered voices going berserk over an issue which not the most important one facing our community today!] Please, please don't jump into the dialogue or make up your minds without sifting through the obfuscations and looking at the real goings-on. Most of the critics are misled by the misinformation being thus circulated. But the energy, the passion, in tearing down this extraordinary man seems to be coming from a handful of people who have no real interest in the status of the Guru Granth, but to keep the community off balance by entagling it in peripheral issues. One way of keeping such people in check is by taking such issues calmly - high emotions don't get anybody anywhere. And Sikhi is not, and never is, threatened. It's those who don't rely on gurbani and get sucked into "chaturta" that unwittingly become pawns of the mischief-makers, and give them traction. Let's all beware ... 

*12: Tejwant Singh (Nevada, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 1:58 PM.*

A Sikh's duty is to learn, to unlearn and to relearn, and Prof. Sahib, who resigned as the Jathedar of Akal Takht (most of the others have been sacked) because of Sikhi principles is not ashamed of letting the Khalsa Panth know that he is a true Sikh by doing just that. He also showed everyone that he does not shy away from changing his mind when gurmat wisdom demands it. Sikhi has a universal message and our visionary Gurus knew how to share that with all humanity. All other religions stopped in time except Sikhi because they are based on subjective truths whereas Sikhi is based on the objective Reality. The first pauri of Japji shows us that. Our visionary Gurus did not want our thought processes to stop in the past but to evolve with the evolution of humanity. This is more the reason in my opinion for them not to add prose passages to this beautiful visionary poetry - the road map of humanity - which they could have easily done in The Guru Granth. Gurbani is like a prism. Each one of us sees it from our own angle and the more we delve into gurbani, with time, the better we are exposed to different angles of the same prism which make our understanding of the same shabad deeper and wider through contemplation and perseverance. This is the reason that our understanding of gurbani will grow with our own evolution. The only stamp it has on it is the stamp of TIMELESSNESS. So, the other side of the coin would be: BRAVO! to Prof. Darshan Singh ji who we all know spoke against the attack on Harmandar Sahib and also about the holocaust that took place in 1984 more than anyone else did. He held Kirtan Darbars during that time explaining gurbani in the same context. Once he came to realize with his own spiritual evolution about the passages in the Dasam Granth that are mistakenly attributed by many to our Dasam Pita, he put his reputation on line and spoke out about it, knowing quite well that attacks from all sides would be hurled at him ... which are still going on ceaselessly. Many who have not even read the Dasam Granth are ready to stone Prof. Sahib merely because they see others are doing it. It is the sheep following the sheep. Shall we call these people Sikhs or ignorant ones who are not willing to learn on their own but put their trust on some second/ third/ fourth hand information? So, I admire people like Prof. Sahib who we all know from his life did nothing but serve the Panth and is fearless in sharing his learning and insight. Isn't this the reason that we Sikhs serve the NIRBHAU, NIRVAIR Ik OanKaar?

*13: Natalee Singh (Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada), November 12, 2009, 3:17 PM.
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 Without being familiar with Prof. Darshan Singh's work, my only comment would be: what part of "Guru maanyo Granth" is it that people don't understand? Didn't Guru Gobind Singh leave a clear and unequivocal edict that the Guru Granth Sahib was the one and only true Guru after his departure from this world ... bravo to anyone who furthers this message!

*14: Gurmeet Kaur (Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 5:01 PM.
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 There are three reasons why Prof. Darshan Singh has been subject to repeated and relentless attacks. 1) He is the most popular Sikh parcharak alive today. It is not easy to be famous and influential. Fame invites jealousy, rivalry and spite, no matter how noble one's own intentions are. Ironically, as much as the Guru asks us to rid our ego, it appears that some of us nurse large doses of it. 2) He has most boldly challenged the authenticity of "Dasam Granth" as consisting solely of Guru Gobind Singh's compositions. In view of some attempts to declare it scripture, I am glad someone in his position had the knowledge and courage to do challenge them. It makes me really nervous when I hear the news of installations of the Dasam Granth at par with the Guru Granth Sahib at some gurdwaras, including a few in the west. Despite the many controversies that have suddenly appeared in the Panth in recent years, at least we all agreed on "One and only One Guru" - Guru Granth. It completely blows my mind when I hear that the only glue that binds the Panth together is under attack by this act of bestowing the same status to the Dasam Granth, and the majority of the nation is sitting quietly like dumb sheep. 3) We have not learnt how to disagree, and yet be civil to each other. What has been done to Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana? Protests, insults, threats, ex-communication, boycotts - the poor old man has been confined to his little apartment by people who still need to learn how to behave like true Sikhs. All for putting forward his views based on years and years of research? I am quoting Dr.I.J. Singh here when he says "We as a community have to learn to disagree without being disagreeable". I would say, ignore the allegations! Use your own heads. If Prof. Darshan Singh inspires you to be a good Sikh, learn from him, show him your support so others too can be inspired by him. Eventually, there is a need to focus on issues, not personalities. Prof. Darshan Singh will one day pass on, like each one of those who are attacking him. Energy should be spent on the issue of the Dasam Granth so it does not split the panth right down the middle. Because that is exactly what our detractors want us to do! 

*15: R. Singh (Surrey, British Columbia, Canada), November 12, 2009, 6:16 PM.
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 There are 10 articles about the Dasam Granth on SikhSpectrum.com Quarterly, January 2009 issue - Symposium on the Authorship of the Dasam Granth. 

*16: Himmat Singh (Melbourne, Australia), November 12, 2009, 6:24 PM.
* 
 Here lies the problem: if you review the conversation above, not one of the opponents of Prof. Darshan Singh's position talk about why the Dasam Granth should be given an elevated status, or argue the authenticity of the questionable passages, etc., etc. All they cite is personal invective against Prof. Sahib - "He used to sing the verses, now why does he oppose them?" "Why does he approve of such-and-such people?" "Why does he hobnob with so-and-so?" etc., etc. The problem is obvious - the issue is not the Dasam Granth. It is some personal stuff against Prof. Sahib. I suspect his detractors have brought (or been sent) baggage from the petty politicians in India. And the community is forced to live through these shenanigans, while the goofy village-style politics rages in some people's minds. I just don't understand why these fellows come to the West? 

*17: Baljit Kaur (San Diego, California, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 6:36 PM.
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 Everytime I hear, or speak to, someone who has a bone to pick with Prof. Darshan Singh, all I see is arrogance ... and an absence of logic. Sadly, there have been no exceptions. It is as if they think the Gurus had asked them specifically to nurture "mat neevin, man uccha"! If they'd only try the virtue of silence for a bit ... and listen to some of Prof. Darshan Singh's discourses, they might learn something ... and spare us their convolutions. Lord, bless them, please! 

*18: Irvinder Singh Babra (Brantford, Ontario, Canada), November 12, 2009, 10:18 PM.
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 If we can bring Prof. Darshan Singh down, a widely respected Elder, then which one of our heroes is free from such attacks. He has spent all his life in the service of Sikhi, and now we condemn him for his authority, his simplicity and his spirituality. Our holy Guru Granth Sahib has 1430 sacred pages, and I am pretty sure that there are not even 1430 Sikhs who understand it the way he does. If the controversy on the Dasam Granth is raging, then it's not the making of Professor Sahib. Sikhs worldwide must stop the assembly or binding of Dasam Granth and Guru Granth Sahib into one holy book. It's sacrilege of the highest order. Guru Gobind Singh had never allowed that in 1699 at Anandpur Sahib. On the other hand, it's astonishing to know why such a renowned and learned Raagi is now branded as one of the most controversial and disgraced Sikhs today? I have read very heinous remarks against him, and it's very painful to see Sikhi at such a juncture today. Is it the fault of Prof. Darshan Singh or have we all had contributed one or the way in our ignorant consciousness. I don't know and would love to be enlightened on it. Remember, the Sikhs remain one of the most generous, kind and foremost people within humanity today. Just stop condemning each other and start celebrating Sikhi now. 

*19: Ravinder Singh Taneja (Westerville, Ohio, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 8:54 AM.
* 
 Thanks to sikhchic.com for launching this Roundtable. From the response so far, one can be quite sure that this will be a popular forum. That Prof. Darshan Singh evokes strong reactions is pretty obvious. Gurmeet Kaur and Tejwant Singh (above) make some very valid observations: we need to stick to the issues and resist the impulse to attack individuals, to learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Actually, a good discussion always opens up new avenues, new possibilities and new insights. It offers growth - but only if we can see beyond the fog of our personal biases.

*20: Gurjender Singh (Maryland, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 11:17 AM.
* 
 After reading all the comments by various Sikhs about Prof. Darshan Singh ji, I would like to say a few further words. I believe that after the compilation of Guru Granth, some Sikhs requested Guru ji for an explanation in great detail. Then Guru ji said that if He provided a word-for-word explanation, then Sikhs would not discuss the Gurbani and without discussion they would not understand. Therefore, please start with respect for others who do this. If Sikhs start following even some of teachings in Guru Granth Sahib, we would not be in this situation that we are currently in. Think honestly, there are very few raagis can do kirtan with proper and enlightened discourse accompanying it. Please respect others. I remember very well Gyani Sant Singh ji Maskin, another great scholar, who was given the Panth Ratan Award after his death. He should have been honoured while he was alive! Now, all the TV channels are suddenly busy broadcasting his lectures. When are we going to give Prof. Darshan Singh the honour due to him, instead of ...?

*21: I.J. Singh (New York, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 5:35 PM.
* 
 I have followed some of the criticism of Prof. Darshan Singh. Many say: "He was the Jathedar of the Akaal Takht and has been a public presence doing katha/kirtan for umpteen years. Why is it that he never criticized the "Dasam Granth" then. Why now? There must be some ulterior motive or at least some great profit to be made." I wonder about that kind of reasoning. I look at myself - a man who hardly ever read or thought about a single line of gurbani for half his life, but now I do with great delight and some insight. If I were to follow the reasoning of the critics then I must remain true to my ignorance all my life and would have no right to learn, change and evolve. The important thing is not that he didn't comment before but now that he does, how do we analyze his reasoning and process. We, too, must show some room to grow - for him and for us both. Either he makes sense or he does not. That is important, not what he said or did not say 20 years ago. In my view he makes immense sense - and I am no acolyte.

*22: Gurdeep Singh (Sacramento, California, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 7:56 PM.
* 
 Professor Darshan Singh ji has said something about the Dasam Granth which doesn't even exist within its pages. That should be the focus of discussion.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 14, 2009)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*

No. 9 and No. 22.
No 9 is just asking why a person CANNOT CHANGE !! and forgets that a SIKH is ALWAYS CHANGING. GURMATT requires us to Learn...UN-LEARN..and RE-LEARN...
What we DIDNT KNOW YESTERDAY......doesnt mean that when we LEARN something new TODAY..we MUST keep our head buried in the sand and keep on doing what we knew yesterday..and NOT use the newly learnt KNOWLEDGE.
New "knowledge" keeps coming on Daily...and even Academicians, scientists..etc keep on chnaging their theories..practises. Does anyone still Believe that the EARTH is FLAT ? That the SUN Circles the Earth...???..BUT at one time everyone beleived THAT..but not NOW...
THIS is WHY all those so called arguments that DROP NAMES..names like sirdar Kapoor Singh..Jarnail singh bhinderawallah..thakur singh etc etc...and say they all said THIS..so Ragi Drashan is WRONG...the problem is those persons are DEAD..and cannot change..while a LIVING PERSON Can change anytime...and this is exactly what Darshan Singh ji has DONE..and I applaud his COURAGE to do THAT...so he is actually a TRUE KHALSA.
No. 22 doesnt know anything. The Anoop kaur episode is right there inisde the bachittar Natak granth...and its exactly what Darshan Singh says about it...


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## Astroboy (Nov 15, 2009)

*http://sikhsangat.org/2009/11/ragi-darshan-twitters-and-get-caught-in-his-own-web/*Sikhsangat and Sikhnet have discussed Prof Ragi Darshan Singh Ji as follows:-

Ragi Darshan Twitters and gets caught in his own web | Global Sikh News

http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2890


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## spnadmin (Nov 15, 2009)

namjap said:


> Sikhsangat and Sikhnet have discussed Prof Ragi Darshan Singh Ji as follows:-
> 
> Ragi Darshan Twitters and gets caught in his own web | Global Sikh News
> 
> SikhNet Discussion Forum • View topic - Prof Darshan Singh engages in Guru Nindya - A TV Discussio



I have been following it. In fact, I have been making pdf copies of all the debate pages because they are excellent examples of how easy it is to spread mis-truths and half-truths via the Internet. 

Global Sikh News btw is a branch of panthic.org -- and the council of European Sikhs that is mentioned in several articles is nothing more than a group of representatives mainly from UK gurdwaras with a particular orientation, not even a balanced representation of gurdwaras in UK, and a smattering from other countries mainly Germany. So we have exaggeration there.

Exaggeration mostly.


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## ssira (Nov 17, 2009)

Dasam Granth Sahib is not new to the present day sangat. It's been here since long time from the elders and prime example Bh mani singh ji. If any change is required or something is not right it, It should come from a Brahm Giani not a teacher or preacher like Prof: Darshan Singh. If he proves that he will not cry if he is put on hot plate or cut buy a saw, I will take his words otherwise he should just do his kirtal from Sri Guru Granth Sahib as well as from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. If he doesn’t agree with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib he should keep on doing kirtan just from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.Regarding Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, keep his mouth shut and don't heart the Sangat who totally believe in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.


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## spnadmin (Nov 17, 2009)

Who is the Brahm Gyani that will clear all doubts? Several who people hold as Brahm Gyani have already spoken on this issue and they have not convinced a majority of the panth.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 17, 2009)

know any Brahmgyani who will sit on a Hot Plate and get his body sawed into half...or get cut from limb to limb like Bhai Mani Singh...or walk with hsi head on his palm like Baba deep Singh Ji...YES I will beleive what THAT Brahmgyani says...not ones like the one who lied about Jarnail singh bhinderawalahs shaheedee to just remain in his post and avoid a new jathedar replacing him...UNTIL such a 
Brahmgyani@ appears..I will continue to BELIEVE IN Prof Darshan Singh as he has the Best CREDENTIALS...he knows what he is talking about without being a fake brahmgyani...


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## harbansj24 (Nov 18, 2009)

The question is not about being a Brahmgyani who may just one in millions. The question is about being a Sikh.

Now if you are a Sikh and hundreds of thousands of people  believe you, respect you and follow your spiritual views then as Sikh, IMHO you owe a responsibility. If you change your spiritual views overnight even for the most genuine reasons, then you do need to give detailed explanation to the Sikh Sangat. For such a changeover you have to admit that your earlier views were not correct and that you were not aware of the facts and now that new truths have come to light you are abandoning the the old beliefs and seek forgiveness of Sikh Sangat.
But then what happens to the lakhs you have earned by singing the shabads from DG? What happens to the royalty earned from sale of tapes and cassettes containing the shabads and have they been withdrawn from the markets? These actions and questions are necessary not from any sadistic satisfaction but  are necessary to maintain the credibility and sanctity of Sikhi.

Now if what is purported to be carried by the tape is correct, then also there may be nothing wrong with it because the King can be interpreted as Dasam Pita since Bhai Nand Lal ji had called Guru ji a "Badshah" and "Shahenshah" in his verses. Where is the need to blame it on Dr. Jodh Singh's translations which he has promptly denied? He could have stood firm and said that was his understanding and he stands corrected if it was wrong. 

Another thing that troubles many Sikhs is that it plausible that nothing in the DG was written by or caused to be written by Guruji OR maybe a very small part may have been written by Guruji (We are clueless of what that part  actually is). _But then do we completely deny that it has been a part of of how we have evolved or a part of History and heritage?_
Can we deny that verses such as "Deh Shiva var Mohe hae...." which has been adopted by the Sikh Regiment right from its formation has not motivated thosands of Sikhs to unprecedented acts of valour?
Leave alone some truly objectionable parts, can we not have the grace to say that though these are not Dasam Pita's compositions or compositions which have been approved by him, they now are a part of our glorious heritage and we can retain them? And for the objectionable parts can we not say that these have never been used by the Sikhs and make no sense to Sikhs and hence we have no use for them?

And can we practice restraint as taught by our Gurus and refrain from labelling people as "Enemies of Panth" and such other terms. Can we not just be critical of the particular undesirable acts rather than wholesale condemnation of the person as such?

Please forgive me if anything wrong has been said.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 18, 2009)

Rationality and sanity seems to be in rare commodity list among sikhs...just about "everybody" is labelling himself ( and maybe a few cohorts) as PANTHIC BODY/IES..SANGAT/S..Panthic Organsiations..etc etc. Just about everyone is an "institution"...a brahmgyani..an expert..what not. a Chauvarka (pamphlet) calls itself Panthic Newspaper..Voice of Sikh Panth...an "internet" news portal calls itself Panthic !! a Website calls itself that...and a Genuine Panthic Newspaper that publishes in the hundreds of thousands is read worldwide by even more is called anti-panthic/communist/nastikc etc etc..CHOOTH FIREH PARDHAAN VE LALO is so TRUE. LIES RULE !! and Liars are pardhaans !!Sach sunaisee sach kee bela ??? Is it time for the TRUTH ? i think it is.

2. imho, Harbans ji is being a bit too "over the border" is asking Darshan Singh to return all royalties from Kirtan ....how sure are w e the "royalties" were due to DG or to Darshan Singhs voice ?? ability ? hw can we separate them..and why should this happen ? It is not as if that "royalties" were PUBLIC MONIES..which now should be returned as a crime has been uncovered or soemthing simialr...those monies were EARNED. The Ragi is making even MORE MONEY now that he tells the truth about DG...what happens to this money ?? should it go to some SGGS Fund ?? since its about the Supremacy of SGGS ??

3. I garee with harbans Ji that we cna Rationalise it all and talk it out..BUT certian vested interests are not going to allow that to happen...can one not see that various FIRES are beign constantly kept flaring...one after the other..Nankshai Calendar..Ragi darshan Singh..Vienna incident..Sggs satikaar..DG...etc etc...the moment one fire looks liek dying down a slight bit..the Petrol is poured on it...right now its the TWIN Fires,,Nnaksahi Calendar/Ragi issue...to keep BADAL in POWER in the SGPC elections !!


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## veerpartapkhalsa (Nov 18, 2009)

*Sangat ji*

*Listen to this......Part 5 (a must)*

Singh Sabha International Canada - Video Files

Waiting for ur replies
Veer


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## harbansj24 (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you Gyaniji.
Yes it may be impractical for him to pay back the exact Royalties earned by singing from DG. But the fact is that he had earned the money from singing of bani which he does not now believe in. He can symbolically gives say 1,2,3,4 or 5 lakhs  to let's say Khalsa Orphanage in Amritsar or something similar.
Nobody is going to grudge him the earnings from singing of Gurbani from SGGS since he believes in it. Nobody would have grudged him the earnings from DG also had he not publicly repudiated it. It is a question of intellectual, moral and spiritual honesty.


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## spnadmin (Nov 18, 2009)

veerpartapkhalsa ji

The labeling that has been referred to in earlier posts continues when Professor Darshan Singh is discussed in the same context as Kala Afghana. In fact the mere mention of Kala Afghana in this controversy has become a knee-jerk reflex -- and it is one of the older and therefore more tried and true techniques to get a discussion going in an irrational direction.

All over the net - since almost the beginning of this controversy -- vested interests have been calling Professor Darshan a side-kick of Kala Afghana, or a Kala Afghana supporter. In recent weeks they have added to their collection. Now they have added "atheist" and more. 

It is the kind of thing that is designed to keep emotions so high that hysteria clouds thought, and rational discussion is impossible. In fact I think that is the agenda. By keeping emotions at a hysterical level debate becomes an impossibility. In the post by harbhansj24 there are a number of calmly argued ways to avert a division over this issue -- very intelligent solutions. Truly creative and original solutions. But now emotions have become so intense that we cannot expect anyone to hear, listen and think - thanks to all of these "I- am-going-to- punch-you-below-the-belt" name-calling episodes.

And the name-calling is all coming from the DasamGranth-er side.


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## veerpartapkhalsa (Nov 18, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur ji
I have listened to the video posted (link posted by me previously). I will request the whole sangat to listen to it and decide themselves.
Oh God...I cant imagine Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji can write these words. Even if these are part of stories told by someone else. Guru ji cannot include such words in  any Granth or Pothy.
I have listened to this video with open mind. Please listen to it without thinking of Kala Afgana or anyone else. Listen to it as someone is translating word by word to u from direct Dasam Granth.
And please come back to me if u can justify this kind of wording. See If ur "Antar Atma" says yes Guru Gobind Singh ji can say or write these words. 
Thanks
Veer


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## spnadmin (Nov 18, 2009)

I will show you two examples of the kind of language I referred to in an earlier post. These kinds of emails are circulated as mass broadcasts by mailing lists. The same small cluster of individuals are at the center of distribution. Their names have been deleted to keep their privacy sacred -- though they never worried about the rights to privacy of their opponents.

Emails like this are never sent to me by those who support Professor Darshan Singh. It is quite amazing that, all throughout Gurbani, in the bani of Guru Teg Bahadur and of Sant Fareed, we are asked to keep our anger in check. This point is missed.

Here is the kind of language that is used. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the substance of the issues regarding Bachitar Natak.

*Example 1* (Notice that t{censored}m singh has been added to the hit-list, whereas previously his name was rarely mentioned.)

"We had developed very bad opinion about role of Parmjit singh Sarna because of his promoting of ragi Darshan. It is good to see that he has sided with gursikhs. he needs to rein in his* communist buddy t{censored}m singh *who spews venom against dasam bani and spoiling his reputation. he can still make amends by *kicking ragi darshan* and his *atheist* communist missionaries"

Example 2 (You can see in this one that verses are used to proclaim a militarist position, but it is a sorry thing that these textual sources are being used to declare a holy war Sikh against Sikh)

"Time has come to take these *heretics* seriously as a hand ful of them are *misleading sikhs by propaganda.*Their *language is so foul* that one can see what type life they may be leading.
certainly this is not a sikh way. ragi darshan singh has no following abroad as is written in Punjabnewsline
by one jagmohan singh. he is blacklisted in 18 gurudwaras of Toronto area. There is open challenge to him to try to come to califiornia.

*Their lies are publicized by Spokesman.* it is a propaganda war being waged on sikhs and need to be combated. Wake up Khalsa ji.You owe it to guru sahib and his bani."

 Where will one find such bani as given below> No mortal can write such verses  except our tenth master.

ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥
खग खंड बिहंडं खल दल खंडं अति रण मंडं बर बंडं ॥
The sword chops well, chops the forces of fools and this mighty one bedecks and glorifies the battlefield.

ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਅਖੰਡੰ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਮੰਡੰ ਭਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ॥
भुज दंड अखंडं तेज प्रचंडं जोति अमंडं भान प्रभं ॥
It is the unbreakable staff of the arm, it has the powerful luster and its light even bedims the radiance of the sum.

ਸੁਖ ਸੰਤਾ ਕਰਣੰ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ  ਦਰਣੰ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹਰਣੰ ਅਸਿ ਸਰਣੰ ॥
सुख संता करणं दुरमति दरणं किलबिख हरणं असि सरणं ॥
It brings happiness to the saints, mashing the vicious ones, it is the destroyer of sins and I and under its refuge.

ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜਗ ਕਾਰਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣ ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਣ ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ ॥੨॥
जै जै जग कारण स्रिसटि उबारण मम प्रतिपारण जै तेगं ॥२॥
Hail, hail to the cause of the world, saviour of the universe, it is my preserver, I hail its victory. 2.

dasam granth sahib, Bachitra natak

There is no propaganda war being waged. The war-cries are coming from one side only. The other side is maintaining its cool!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 18, 2009)

Heres a sample from  a person who i have always admired..for her forthright views, absolutley ravishing humour and stickiness for the TRUTH and no mincing words..a MRS A Singh from Canada...

a student of mine sent in this via email..

*What is so controversial about discussing dasam granth? Loomba/lamba has been doing it in tandem with Virsa sadh of Mina persuasion for a long time. *
It is not Darshan Singh who concocted the story...we have heard it many a time before. If this story has annoyed them I wonder why the real hard core stuff does not annoy them ...being covered in rumalas and kept in gurdwaras and attributed to Guru Sahib supposedly using it as a teaching tool for poor innocent bhujangis being corrupted by evil women..and lauding bhang afeem usage? Braj is not foreign lingo...it is easliy understood and so is the style of writing that points to the culprits being reinstated via new "research". Why not hold an open conference to do a line by line discussion on markandeya puraan (it says so in there) or bhagvad puraan? Then they turn around and 'ban' discussing DG. We need open, line by line, public i.e presence of women and children kind of exposure. THe vitriolic baba-virsa camp followers do not want it that way, they would shut people up and serve their RSS/Hindutava masters. 

Some issues and players:
Dasam Granth: YouTube- Dasam Granth Exposed Part 1 of 6
YouTube- May 22, 2008 - Interview on Vision TV about Dasam Granth
YouTube- Bibi Jugraj Kaur talks about Dasam Granth on Gurbani Program
Main promoters:
YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

Issues with translators and translations:

Here are some examples of translations, where it is obvious that the translater is fixted on making these writings into those of Guru Gobind Singh.

CHAUPAI

Amidst the milk-ocean, where the Immanent Lord was seated, Brahma reached there;

*** "kal" purukh (under time constraints) is exact opposite of Akal (Timeless) of Gurmatt.

The Lord called Vishnu near Him and said, "You go to the earth and assume the form of Krishna incarnation.2.

*** so the Lord is now a discernable entity, summoning folks for pow-wows?
....

CHAUPAI

The sportive plays exhibited by Krishna, have been described in the tenth (skandh);

Gyaraan hazaar baanvae channda; Kahae dasam pur baith ananda
i.e Eleven thousand and ninety two 'channds', coined/spoken sitting blissfully, in the 'tenth' 

But it has somehow gotten translated as:
(There are) eleven thousand and ninety-two stanzas in respect of Krishna incarnation in the tenth skandh.4.

***  reference to Tenth "skand"..so how is this a 'writing' of Guru Sahib??

SECTION

(Ath deviju ki ustatt kathann)
It is translated as:
Now begins the description in praise of the goddess
When it should read:
*** Now begins the narration of the praise of the deviji
....

SWAYYA

On receiving Thy Grace, I shall assume all the virtues;
I shall destroy all the vices, ruminating on Thy attributes in my mind;
O Chandi! I cannot utter a syllable from my mouth without Thy Grace;
      *** the writer is obviously a devi bhagat

DOHRA

O mind! Remember(bhaj/chant) the goddess Sharda of innumerable qualities;
      And if she be kind, I may compose this Granth (based on) Bhagavata.6.

*** the translater has translated it as "based upon",,,when the line says clearly: "Rachau granth eh bhagvad, jau vai kirpa karahe" i.e This granth Bhagvad IS composed, through the auspices of/when 'via or vah... that/her/him' showered grace. We are pretty certain Bahgvad Puraan is much older than 1700.s

*** Granth "COMPOSED, "BASED" UPON BHAGVAD" It is NOT based Upon..it IS composed. Do we need to to be Sherlock Holmes to decipher this literature? Perhaps Loomba should stop jabbering and start reading. 

********

This is just one little example there are glaring mistranslations. This is definite subversion effort to impose brahmanic compositions on sikhs, by assigning them to Guru Sahib. 1984 was attack on ordinary sikhs on the street, this here is an 2009 attack on the core of sikhism. There is no discussion, exposure of this perverse granth, nor any valid translation nor and attempt to understand or answer,,,only character assasinations and 'ex-communications' of those who get up to question, by theses self-appointed executioners serving this or that poltical master. Sikhs need to set up open forums to get to the truth of this..or else they will be sacrifcing baby goats and waving weapons as objects of worship in gurdwaras ruled by the vicious thugs like the patna jathedar...and AGGS will be relegated to trash heaps. 

Mrs A Singh
      Toronto, Canada


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## spnadmin (Nov 18, 2009)

Please thank Mrs. A. Singh for me. You have mentoned her work before to me. She is an expert translator. For her this must seem like the most painful experience, an assault on her intellect, her heart and her soul's being.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 19, 2009)

IF I could only get her to join US at SPN...our "value added" Index would JUMP 1000% instantly..thats how good she is at all things Sikhi/Gurmatt/SGGS/Youth problems/sikh culture et al.....alas she has little time to spare...and YES Translator--par excellence !!
When Guru Ji decides...she may join us...


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## veerpartapkhalsa (Nov 19, 2009)

*Sangat ji*
*Thanks for all the input. Can someone point me in the right direction. I need to know if above mentioned link (previously posted by me) has got the right translations (word by word) specially in part 5. If not then what and where can I find the right translations of the same? If these are the right translations then Can we even think our Guru ji has put these stazas or sentences or words in a Pothy or Granth?*

**Please note that I am only a humble sikh not affliated with anyone just a common man!!
*Thanks*
*Veer*


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## spnadmin (Nov 19, 2009)

veerpartapkhalsa said:


> *Sangat ji*
> *Thanks for all the input. Can someone point me in the right direction. I need to know if above mentioned link (previously posted by me) has got the right translations (word by word) specially in part 5. If not then what and where can I find the right translations of the same? If these are the right translations then Can we even think our Guru ji has put these stazas or sentences or words in a Pothy or Granth?*
> 
> **Please note that I am only a humble sikh not affliated with anyone just a common man!!
> ...



Veerpartapkhalsa ji

Personally -- I can't answer your question exactly. Here is the doubtful part. At this stage in the controversy -- key chapters in Bachitar Natak Have been translated into English by Professor Jodhi Singh, according to "panthic" news reports. However one cannot seem to locate them. I have tried to do that. 

Supposedly these translations will show that Professor Darshan is a heretic, among other things. 

It is said that Professor Darshan has misquoted Professor Jodhi Singh who is said to have translated the lines/chapters under dispute into English. Where are these translations so that others can evaluate the arguments on each side? 

Things become peculiar  when Professor Darshan says that he has quoted Professor Jodhi and Professor Jodhi now says that he has been misquoted. Then news story after news story is published and no one in the reading audience -- and I doubt most if not all of the individuals writing these stories -- have read any of the translations in question.

By the time December rolls around how will we know which draft of the "translation" will be used in testimony. 

On top of all of this - the parts translated (so to speak) are from Bachitar Natak. But the allegations against Professor Darshan have for some time now extended well beyond disputed passages in Bachitar Natak. And as I have noted, at the risk of repeating myself, extend to claims that he is an atheist and a communist and more. Which has nothing to do with Bachitar Natak.

I too am just a plain person looking at this unwinding dispute and asking myself why it has the look and sound of the debates of early Christianity? And why actors in this story are behaving like the Vatican?  Final question not yet addressed: What are the specific heresies? These can only be judged by showing heresies committed against Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## gaganji (Nov 20, 2009)

1. Singh Sahib to appear at Akal Takht on December 5th, 2009: Dasam Granth | Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) Web Academy 

2. Q&A Sessions from Sher-E-Punjab: Dasam Granth | Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) Web Academy


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## Admin (Nov 20, 2009)

gaganji said:


> 1. Singh Sahib to appear at Akal Takht on December 5th, 2009: Dasam Granth | Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) Web Academy
> 
> 2. Q&A Sessions from Sher-E-Punjab: Dasam Granth | Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) Web Academy


*Sach Sunaisee Sach Kee Bela*... 
Thanks for the update: Please do keep us updated on further developments. :happysingh:


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## spnadmin (Nov 20, 2009)

This information from another mailing list to which I am subscribed. The entire message is not included; only the parts that are relevant to this discussion. 

....
"About 2.5 years back, GS Lamba had cooked up story and case against Prof Darshan Singh. CASE was brought to Vedanti and Iqbal Singh and company. But was scuttled at last moment as evidence that Badal had accepted Rs 8 lakh from Indian Tobacco Corporation surfaced in ITC's annual report. So everything was put into cold storage.


Next time around after 6-7 month in April 2008 Lamba brought out another case. Also at Badal's Gurgaon and Baba Virsa Singh Mehrauli base new rehat Maryada was formulated with mix of Taksaal, AKJ and Nanaksar samprada and blessing of Sukhbir. Also evidence had surfaced that Jathedar Patna Iqbal Singh was third convenor  and Lamba second convenor of annual symposium by Rashtriya Sikh Sangat an offshoot of right wing RSS surfaced. When at Akal Takht to discuss second case against Prof Darshan Singh, Vedanti humilated Iqbal Singh Patna Jathedar as RSS agent. As Sukhbir can only control so much. SGPC task force pushed out Iqbal Patna out of Akal Takht. Then after 4 months during Manmohan Singh's confidence motion, Congress had paid money to Iqbal to issue hukamnama in favour of PM Manmohan Singh to akali MP.s BJP/RSS/Badal stuck a deal with Iqbal that Vedanti would be removed in September 2008.


Now Lamba has cooked up another story against Prof Darshan Singh. Ever eager to take revenge Iqbal etc have oiled their thighs for last fight. Badal does not care as far Radhasoami vote bank is intact. And also with Prof Darshan Singh out, it is easier for Badal to checkmate SARNA and company in SGPC elections.


According to my readings, Prof Darshan Singh will be excommunicated from Panth this time around. Lamba will win. Unless some tactics and flaws are discovered. Or PM Manmohan Singh is used to twist Sukhbir's arm and hence silence Akal Takht.."
 
...

Who will succeed the third time around?


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## dalbirk (Nov 21, 2009)

veerpartapkhalsa said:


> *Sangat ji*
> *Thanks for all the input. Can someone point me in the right direction. I need to know if above mentioned link (previously posted by me) has got the right translations (word by word) specially in part 5. If not then what and where can I find the right translations of the same? If these are the right translations then Can we even think our Guru ji has put these stazas or sentences or words in a Pothy or Granth?*
> 
> **Please note that I am only a humble sikh not affliated with anyone just a common man!!
> ...


Dear Veer Partap Khalsa ji ,
                      Here is a link to translation of Chritropakyan of DG including chritar 21 & 22 , the tale of Anoop Kaur .


English Translation of Chritropakhyaan From Dasam Granth Vol-1@@AMEPARAM@@/docinfo/11885644?access_key=key-pugp3hc565zldn2ypcd@@AMEPARAM@@11885644@@AMEPARAM@@key-pugp3hc565zldn2ypcd

    Would like to hear all views on it .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 21, 2009)

Heres a another fantastic write up by Kirpal Singh Nijher ( not the one who took spn to Utube !!) SACH SUNAISEE SACH KI BELA..
*SIKH NATION …. FOOLED ONCE AGAIN???!!!*​ 
*Date: Maghar 5, 541 NS (Nanakshahi)* 

How many more times, are we the Sikh going to let the Anti-Sikh Deceptions fool us???!!!  
… Ad infinitum???!!!   

Well, if the Sikh Reaction to the latest MEGA-DECEPTION created by a TV Host by the name Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba (@ Jus Punjabi is any indicator; then there does not seem to be any hope for the Sikhs on the horizon.  

 It seems that once again we the Sikhs have been fooled into falling for the age old Bipar Trick of tricking the Sikhs with some OUT-OF-THE-CONTEXT non-sense, and then enjoying the Sikhs’ mindless reaction to such a deception. … (e.g. The way many of the Sikhs have mindlessly fallen for the Bipar-deception of accepting the Porno Trash of Charitro-Pakhyan as Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s writings,)   

The latest episode in this saga of tricks is a heavily doctored OUT-OF-THE-CONTEXT TV broadcast by S. Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba@ Jus Punjabi; in which he turned the CONTEXT of Prof. Darshan Singh’s Keertan at Rochester NY Gurdwara Sahib upside down by converting a very pro-Guru Gobind Singh Jee presentation of Prof Darshan Singh’s into a very Anti-Guru Jus Punjabi broadcast. … The frustrated Sikh reaction to this episode needs no mention; because by now, everyone knows that the Sikhs are shaken up right to the top including their Akal Takhat in response to this broadcast. 

Now let us search for the truth a bit by going into the background. … By now all of us know that there are three main actors in this episode namely; Prof. Darshan Singh; who did the Keertan; ….  S. Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba; who did the broadcast of his heavily deceptive version of that Keertan; … and The Sikh Sangat of Rochester Gurdwara Sahib; who listened to the actual Keertan in its CONTEXT, and understood its message;  ….. But, a few days later found itself in a very helpless and frustrated situation; when a completely OUT-OF-THE-CONTEXT version the Keertan held at their Gurdwara Sahib was broadcast @ Jas Punjabi to play a very cruel JOKE on the entire Sikh Nation.  … Well, that is what is known so far  to majority of us. 

However what is not known is; … a) the CONTEXT in which Prof Darshan Singh spoke. … b) The possible reason for the distortions that the TV Host S. Lamba chose to do. … and c) The magnitude of Rochester Sangat’s frustration & helplessness.  

To understand the episode in its completeness, please keep the following sequence of events in mind; 
1.      August 9, 2009: To make inroads with the Rochester Gurdwara Sahib Sangat, S. Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba came to the Gurdwara Sahib & delivered a lecture. 
2.      Aughust, 23, 2009: Prof. Darshan Singh came to Gurdwara Sahib & did his said Keertan. 
3.      End of Sept, 2009; at the request of Mr. Lamba, S. Makhan Singh of Rochester sent the DVD of Prof. Darshan Singh’s Keertan to S. Lamba in good faith. … (Therefore, not expecting any kind of foul play on part of S. Lamba, and not realizing the importance that the said DVD could acquire in a few days he happened to delete it from his computer). 
4.      Mid of October, 2009; The OUT-OF-THE-CONTEXT heavily edited DVD is broadcast by S. Lamba on Jus Punjabi. 

ROCHESTER SANGAT’S FRUSTRATION; 
5.       After watching the distorted version of their DVD on Jus Punjabi many Truth-seeking Sikhs started calling the Rochester Sangat for a copy of the non-edited version of the DVD. Therefore S. Makhan Singh not having anything in hand asked S. Lamba to return his DVD, or to play the entire DVD on Jus Punjabi so that people could judge for them as to; where lies the TRUTH & where lies the FALSEHOOD?… However S. Lamba having found that S. Makhan Singh does not have anything in his hand to reveal the Truth about the deceptive broadcast; did neither, and started giving S. Makhan Singh a run around. 
6.      In his frustration. S. Makhan Singh did the following; 
a.       He requested the Jas Punjabi Management to play the un-edited version of the DVD in its entirety on Jus Punjabi. But had no luck.   
b.      Therefore having been left with no other choice, he sent his computer to computer specialists for retrieval of the said DVD at a price tag of $1000. 
c.       Also, he wrote a letter in this connection to “Sher-e-Punjab” newspaper. (Please see that letter at the end of this letter.) 
7.      Thus comes the un-edited version of the DVD on the Internet.  
(Please CLICK below to hear the un-edited version of the DVD) 

http://www.wakeupkhalsa.com/<wbr>video-shabad.php

Now let us discuss the issues at hand.


CONTEXT: … The central theme of Prof. Darshan Singh’s massage as understood by the Rochester Sangat was that; …  

“As per Guru Gobind Singh Jee’s directive Guru Granth Sahib is the only Guru of the Sikhs. Therefore no other book (like Dasam Granth etc.) should be considered as a co-equal of Guru Granth Sahib. … Stating its history he explained that; 

During the Dogra Treachery period of Maharaja Ranjit Singh & the “please the Master” period of British Raj, when Dasam Granth (whose actual name is Bachittar-Natak-Granth, and at present in a deceptive move is named as “Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib” with the words Dasam in small letters & SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB in big letters) was introduced into the Sikh Gurdwara Sahibs to take the Sikhs away from Guru Granth Sahib..  … Next, during the Sikh period of awakening Dasam Granth was removed from all those Gurdwara Sahibs that fell under the Sikh control; however in the absence of the “All India Gurdwara Act, it couldn’t be removed from Gurdwaras outside of Punjab. Hence parkash of Dasam Granth as a co-equal of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in places like Hazoor Sahib, Patna Sahib & many other places continues till today. Such practices in any of the Gurdwaras are wrong & hence should be stopped; because nothing can equal Guru Granth Sahib.  

Furthermore, from the Dasam Granth the Amrit Banis or other Guru related literature (aproximately 60 pages out of the total of 1429 page of the Granth) should be taken out, and rest of the Granth should be discarded. The reason for such an action is warranted because in this Granth majority of writings that are NOT written by Guru Gobind Singh Jee but are very deceptively associated with his name by the enemy quarters. … For example there are episodes in Dasam Granth, in which the enemies of the Sikhs in a very deceptive way have tried to portray the Guru Sahib as;  … a) ordering his Sikhs to remove turbans from the heads of people urinating in the open; and then using these turbans to give Siropas to some Sikhs;   …. b) Portraying Guru Sahib going to a prostitute etc.    … Then he went into a detailed description of the Noop Kaur episode & explained the nonsense & impossibilities of this deception.” 

Then he encouraged the Sangat to read all such literature themselves, so that they could realize first hand, the extent of the atrocities of such writings.. 

Majority of the Sangat understood the very loud & clear message in its context & nobody objected about anything.  

REASON FOR MR. LAMBA’S DECEPTION; 
Is S. Lamba on a mission to promote the Dasam Granth and other anti-Sikh literature in the West under the directions of some much bigger force? … Only, S. Lamba knows. … But his blatant act of JOURNALISTIC DISHONESTY in which he has projected a very pro-Guru Gobind Singh Ji message of Prof. Darshan Singh into an upside down Anti-Guru Gobind Singh broadcast, to fool the Sikh Sangat at large; and furthermore has misbehaved with S. Makahan Singh an innocent member of the Sangat; puts a question mark on S. Lambas’s integrity.  

Therefore it is necessary for the entire Sikh Nation to investigate & find S. Lamba’s real motives; and the “INVISIBLE HAND (if any)” that is funding/helping his operation; through which he has been able to; 
1.       Become in-charge of the Sant-Sipahi magazine back home.&  
2.      A TV Host in the USA; … the place wherefrom a very vocal opposition to Dasam Granth is coming from.     

Is he just a TV Host doing his job, or a part of some much bigger clique; that in a very calculated way is busy controlling the Sikh Airwaves; because  

*“If you control information; you control the people.”*​ 
Is S. Lamba a very intelligent man, who knows the Sikhs inside out? … Absolutely YES, he is!  

However unfortunately, so were the men by the names of Ram, Sham, Gansham & Soom; who created the *MEGA-DECEPTION* of *Bachittar-Natak-Granth*  aka *DASAM GRANTH* that we the Sikhs have not been able to resolve even today; and it is clinging to us like a *CHRONIC VIRUS*. 

Should we continue getting FOOLED ad infinitum by it???!!! … Choice is ours to make. 

Kirpal Singh, USA 


(A personal note: The author has personally met and talked to quite a few members of the Rochester Gurdwara Sahib Sangat to dig out the information that is contained in the above letter.) 

*S. MAKHAN SINGH’S LETTER to Sher-e-Punjab: * 
(In case you can’t read it; then please look at the attachment.) 


pRo:drSn isMG bnwm s: gurcrnjIq isMG lWbw 

iksy vI Drm ivc jd kdy koeI vwd ivvwd auT KloNdw hY, qW ieh sB qoN vD mwrU swbq huMdw hY [ ipCy jhy gurdvwrw AwP rwcYstr, nIaU Xwrk ivc AYsw hI kuJ hoieAw [ kuJ smW hoieAw s: gurcrnjIq isMG lWbw Aqy pRo: drSn isMG sjx Agy ipCy Awey [ gurdvwrw pRbMDkW Aqy smucI sMgq ny ienHW dohW ivdvwnW dI Awmd dw suAwgq kIqw Aqy aunHW dI Awmd dw suAwgq kIqw Aqy aunHW nUM isropwau vI b^iSS kIqy [ pRo: swihb ny ieQy do idn kIrqn kIqw [ lWbw jI nUM aunHW dI mMg auqy dohW idnW dIAW fIvIfIAW ByjIAW geIAW [ pRo: drSn isMG dI vIfIau nUM aunHW ny kt vF kr ky js pMjwbI cYnl qoN idKw idqw, ijs dI aunHW pwsoN aumId nhIN sI [ 

lWbw jI nUM aupr QlI bynqI vI kIqI geI ik auh jW qW ies vIifau nUM ibnW AYift  kIqy qoN vwps Byj dyx jW ies dI pUrI kwpI ieMtrnYt auqy pw dyx qW jo isK sMgq Kud vyK ky inrnw kr lvy ik kI sc hY Aqy kI JUT, pr lWbw jI ny keI vwAdy krky vwAdw i^lwPI kIqI hY [ ies nwl auh Awp vI Sk dy Gyry ivc Aw jWdy hn [ sbMDq vIfIau lWbw jI pws swfI Amwnq hY Aqy aunHW nUM Amwnq ivc i^Awnq krnI SoBw nhIN idMdI, ies leI aunHW nUM iek vyr Pyr bynqI kIqI jWdI hY ik swfy vloN ByjI fIvIfI swnUM CyqI qoN CyqI ByjI jwvy [ js pMjwbI cYnl dy smucy adwry Aqy pRbMDkW Agy bynqI hY ik auh pMQk eykqw leI ies fIvIfI nUM pUry rUp ivc Awpxy drSkW nUM idKwaux, qW jo koeI BulyKy dw iSkwr nw hovy [ 

pMQk eykqw dw ieCk 

mKx isMG, rwcYstr, nIaU Xwrk 
tYlIPon: 585-350-5358 



__._,_.___
Attachment(s) from Kirpal Singh Nijher
 1 of 1 File(s)


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## veerpartapkhalsa (Nov 21, 2009)

Reading translations of Chritropakyan  I have SERIOUS doubts about the writer of Dasam Granth. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib cannot write/include anyone's stories that include words like "Semen dripping" Breasts, sex, intercourse , lovemaking and manymore such words


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## spnadmin (Nov 21, 2009)

veerpartapkhalsa ji

You know what is so bad about this. By insisting that Dasam Pita wrote this kind of thing, and creating a furor over honest questions coming from the panth, the really and truly deep and profound and liberating point of the life and death and Gurdgaddi of Sri Gobind Singh is lost.

It is lost to the next generations of Sikhs who will have these crass and maya filled messages of self-delusion as their legacy. Everything else that the world now holds in awe about Dasam Pita will be faded and will dim like the tales of Rama. 

That is the tragedy iMHO.


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## spnadmin (Nov 21, 2009)

dalbirkji

Thanks - This is the translation that I knew of and then lost it, or it seemed it had lost itself. I appreciate your effort posting it here.

It downloads fine from the Scribd site. I logged in through facebook Connect, and then the pdf version started to download in my download manager.


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## dalbirk (Nov 22, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> veerpartapkhalsa ji
> 
> You know what is so bad about this. By insisting that Dasam Pita wrote this kind of thing, and creating a furor over honest questions coming from the panth, the really and truly deep and profound and liberating point of the life and death and Gurdgaddi of Sri Gobind Singh is lost.
> 
> ...



Dear Narayan Jot Ji ,
              When I just accidently got inclined towards philosophy some two years back , I came across this term " THE ALKALINE SEA OF BRAHMINISM " . I at first was at a loss , not knowing what this term stands for . I guess the thing you are talking about is just that the Alkalike sea of Brahminism . A person just laps up something which is against the basic philosophy of that religion gets so hooked to mythology that REAL LIFE does not impress him/her anymore . Easy & short path to so called spirituality . Just the thing happened to Buddhists not knowing when they started sliding , just sank without a trace . Hope it does not get repeated to Sikhs .


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## vampire (Nov 22, 2009)

Vampire on Sikhism

The 'Dasam' Granth controversy has been going on for a long time. 
Guru Granth Sahib Jee is supposed to be the Sikhs Guru.  Yet we have people who are not satisfied with Guru Granth Sahib Jee.  That is why they are always quoting rehitnamas, saakia or dasam granth.  If we as Sikhs considered Guru Granth Sahib Jee as the be all and end all, we would not have this mess.  Arguments and splits will continue in Sikhism.


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## spnadmin (Nov 22, 2009)

I am just going to repeat what you said because I agree with it 100 percent.
*
The 'Dasam' Granth controversy has been going on for a long time. Guru Granth Sahib Jee is supposed to be the Sikhs Guru. Yet we have people who are not satisfied with Guru Granth Sahib Jee. That is why they are always quoting rehitnamas, saakia or dasam granth. If we as Sikhs considered Guru Granth Sahib Jee as the be all and end all, we would not have this mess. Arguments and splits will continue in Sikhism

*


vampire said:


> The 'Dasam' Granth controversy has been going on for a long time.
> Guru Granth Sahib Jee is supposed to be the Sikhs Guru. Yet we have people who are not satisfied with Guru Granth Sahib Jee. That is why they are always quoting rehitnamas, saakia or dasam granth. If we as Sikhs considered Guru Granth Sahib Jee as the be all and end all, we would not have this mess. Arguments and splits will continue in Sikhism.




BTW Your blog is going to be good stuff. Keep it up. Later when I visit Sikh blogs this evening I will probably leave a comment. Thanks.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 23, 2009)

1.
There were a HUGE BUNCH..of so called dsm granth birs....Now WHY would there be so many DIFFERING Volumes ??

2.
A SODHAK COMITTEE ( composed of Britihs Plants..clerks, granthis, JHOLI CHUKS like BEDI SIR KHEM SINGH BEDI..who wanted to be considered EQUAL to Gurus because of his Lineage..this same BEDI is related to Amitabh Bachans Mother !!) was set up to RECONCILE these Differing Volumes...

3. IF ALL the Volumes were Originally AUTHORED bY Guru Gobind Singh Ji..and are GURUBANI...then what gives a mere clerk or a Sir Bedi the RIGHT to ALTER/CUT/PASTE/CHANGE/REMOVE any "gurubanis"...? Is the SOdhak Comittee assuming the Role of BETTER/HIGHER than the GURU ?? Sure looks that way ??....doesnt it ?? Humans CORRECTING the GURU ??

Daal wich bahut kujhs kaala hai ji....teh Fish Head is ROTTEN and smells....so bad !!


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## Admin (Nov 23, 2009)

Here is another uncut version of the Prof Darshan Singh ji video of his visit to Rochester NY

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 1

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 2

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 3

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 4

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 5

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 6

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 7

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Jee Khalsa Rochester NY Part 8


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## dalbirk (Nov 24, 2009)

The Chritro Pakhyan are supposed to be stories showing various shades of character of women . If it is so then it seems a bit wierd , because Sikhism is supposed to be equally for men & women . If shades of women's character are told then shades of men's characters are also to be told . Seems a bit demeaning to women when shades of only WOMEN'S CHARACTER are told & not men's .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 24, 2009)

Gender Bias is NOT the entire reason...there are a few Men related charitars as well...just to balance out ....BUT that doesnt make it all right....just like saying that its "gender bias" if one says prostitution is bad..and then to balance it out say that ... Being Gay is also bad.....does that "balanced gender" make the two Right ?? ( Just an example without prejudice to either prostitutes or gays ):u)::u): the Fact is the Charitars are NOT GURBANI...not by a longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg shot.:u)::u)::u)::u)::u):


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 24, 2009)

Gyani ji,

Guru fateh.

You are absolutely right about that. Allow me to add something more. When Charitars talk about women, it is also related to men. They are not mentioning anything about the  Lesbians and the same goes for the female prostitution.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Nov 24, 2009)

What has been issued is a "sandesh" and not orders to excommunicate on sight. Let's see what happens. 

I am posting from the blog of The Khalsa Fauj so it will be clear that a lot of disinformation is being spread by Mr. Lamba who masterminded the strategy of sending an edited DVD of Professor Darshan Singh's katha to Akaal Takht.









"We see two different sandeshs sent by Jathedars. This is not a hukamnama but a sandesh. It only has signature of Jathedar of Takht. It doesn't have signature of 5 singhs. A sandesh is quite different from a hukamnama. Sandeshs are recommendations and not mandatory. The reason for posting those two is because one has a date on it and the other doesn't. The one without date was the first one available on Panthic Weekly. Panthic Weekly received it before others" ... Panthic Wing


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 24, 2009)

*Five SINGH SAHIBS..Under the Signature of Akal Takhat Jathedar Sadhu Singh Bhaura met on Akal Takhata nd Issued a Hukmnamah that Charitrapkhoyan in dsm granth is NOT the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji...in 1973.
*
Thus the Present Jathedar is CONTRAVENING a Hukmnamha issued by his predecessor !! in 1973.
This issue is raised in one of the Nine resolutions passed by a HUge turnout of Sangats in NEW YORK GURDWARA. Rabinder singh BHAMRA, GS Lamba and Harvinder singh RIYARR are named conspirators behind this anti-darshan singh episode. Bhamra writes on Forums regularly and is a strong supporter of reincarnation, etc etc etc...


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## Admin (Nov 25, 2009)

Wow! Do we have a copy of that edict?


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## Hardip Singh (Nov 25, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> *Five SINGH SAHIBS..Under the Signature of Akal Takhat Jathedar Sadhu Singh Bhaura met on Akal Takhata nd Issued a Hukmnamah that Charitrapkhoyan in dsm granth is NOT the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji...in 1973.*
> 
> Thus the Present Jathedar is CONTRAVENING a Hukmnamha issued by his predecessor !! in 1973.
> This issue is raised in one of the Nine resolutions passed by a HUge turnout of Sangats in NEW YORK GURDWARA. Rabinder singh BHAMRA, GS Lamba and Harvinder singh RIYARR are named conspirators behind this anti-darshan singh episode. Bhamra writes on Forums regularly and is a strong supporter of reincarnation, etc etc etc...


 
Gyanni jee,
I have just recived an e-mail from Lamba's camp on the subject matter. I am just pasting the mail as such. You can relise from this that how much efforts they are putting up to misinform the Sikh sangat regarding Proffessor Sahib. Here it is

*From:* SANT SIPAHI [Estd.1945] <gslamba@santsipahi.org>
*Sent:* Mon, November 23, 2009 4:50:59 PM
*Subject:* ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਵਲੋਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਘੋਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ - ਕੁਝ ਆਡੀਉ ਕਲਿਪ
http://co105w.col105.mail.live.com/mail/InboxLight.aspx?n=1756830430#playhttp://co105w.col105.mail.live.com/mail/InboxLight.aspx?n=1756830430#stophttp://co105w.col105.mail.live.com/mail/InboxLight.aspx?n=1756830430#mute


http://co105w.col105.mail.live.com/mail/InboxLight.aspx?n=1756830430#volume




AUDIO FILES:​ 
01 DS - 050107 ANKOOL – RAKABGANJ SAHIB
ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕੀ ਹੈ ? ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਹੇ। ਪਰ ਪ੍ਰੋ. ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਕਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੋ ਰਚਨਾਵਾਂ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਅਨਕੂਲ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਅਨਕੂਲ ਹਨ ਉਹ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਲੈਣੀਆਂ ਚਾਹੀਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਕੀ ਹੁਣ ਸਿਖ ਇਹ ਨਿਸਚਤ ਕਰੇਗਾ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਕਿਹਡੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਅਨਕੂਲ ਹੈ? ਕੀ ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਰ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ?


02 DS -WARNING TO HAZUR SAHIB
ਪ੍ਰੋ. ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਤਖ਼ਤ ਸਚਿਖੰਡ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਮੰਦਿਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਬੰਧਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਲਕਿ ਚੇਤਾਵਨੀ ਦੇ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਉਥੋਂ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਉਠਾ ਦੇਣ।


03 DS - MESSAGE ABOUT HAZOOR SAHIB AND PATNA SAHIB
ਪੰਜਾ ਤਖ਼ਤਾਂ ਦੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਹਰ ਸਿਖ ਨਿਤਾਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਤਖ਼ਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪਟਨਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਤੇ ਸਚਿਖੰਡ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਮੰਦਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ  ਦੀ  ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਿਸ ਸਥਾਨ ਤੇ ਵੀ  ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਖ ਐਸੇ ਸਥਾਨ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਜਾਵੇ।  


04 DS -  ATTACK BHAI SUKHA SINGH BHAI MEHTAB SINGH AND BHAI MANI SINGH.
ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ਰੋਮਣੀ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਬੰਧਕ ਕਮੇਟੀ ਵਲੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ਿਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਾਰਤੰਡ ਵਿਚ ਅੰਕਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਲੋਂ ਸੰਪਾਦਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬੀਡ਼ ਬਾਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਪੰਥ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਚਲ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਬੀਡ਼ ਨਿਰੋਲ ਇਕ ਜਿਲਦ ਵਿਚ ਰਹੇ ਜਾਂ ਵਖ ਵਖ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾ ਦੀਆਂ ਵਖਰੀਆਂ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਬਣਾ ਦਿਤੀਆਂ ਜਾਣ ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ਮੁਤਾਬਿਕ ਸਿਖ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਪਠਨ ਪਾਠਨ ਕਰ ਸਕਣ। ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਮੁਤਾਬਕ ਇਹ ਇਕ ਜਿਲਦ ਵਿਚ ਸੀ ।  ਭਾਈ ਸੁਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਹਿਤਾਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਨੇ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਪਾਮਰ ਮਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਧਣ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਜੇਕਰ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਸੋਧ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਹੋ ਗਏ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਵਖ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਕਰ ਦਿਤੀਆਂ ਜਾਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਇਕ ਜਿਲਦ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਰਹਿਣ ਦਿਤਾ ਜਾਏ। ਭਾਈ ਸੁਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਹਿਤਾਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਪਾਮਰ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਧ ਕੇ ਵਾਪਸ ਆ ਗਏ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਇਕ ਜਿਲਦ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਰਿਹਾ।   ਪਰ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਿਰੇ ਝੂਠ ਅਤੇ ਕੁਫ਼ਰ ਦਾ ਸਹਾਰਾ ਲੈਂਦਿਆਂ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਹਾਦਤ ਦੇ ਦੋ ਸਾਲ ਬਾਅਦ ਤਕ ਇਸ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀਆਂ ਵਖ ਵਖ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਸਨ ਤੇ ਭਾਈ ਸੁਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਹਿਤਾਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਨੇ ਕਿਹਾ ਕਿ ਜੇਕਰ ਉਹ ਮੱਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਧ ਕੇ ਵਾਪਸ ਆ ਗਏ ਤਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਕਰ ਦੇਣਾ। ਭਾਈ ਸੁਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਹਿਤਾਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੇ ਸੁਰਖਰੂ ਵਾਪਸ ਆ ਜਾਣ ਉਪਰੰਥ ਇਸ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੁਦਾ ਜੁਦਾ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ।

ਇਹ ਨਾ ਕੇਵਲ ਸ਼ਰਾਰਤ ਅਤੇ ਅਕਾਦਮਿਕ ਬੇਈਮਾਨੀ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਬਲਕਿ ਮਹਾਨ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਅਤੇ ਭਾਈ ਸੁਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਹਿਤਾਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ ਵੀ ਘੋਰ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਹੈ।

06 DS – TWENTY GRANTHS IN THE NAME OF GURU GOBIND SINGH JI.
ਬਿਨਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਜਾਂ ਹਵਾਲੇ ਦੇ ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਵੀਹ ਜਾਂ ਪੱਚੀ ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਹਨ। ਕੀ ਇਹ ਲਿਸਟ ਦੇਣ ਦੀ ਖੇਚਲ ਕਰਨ ਗੇ? 

07 DS- DURGANDH 250508 BALA SAHIB
ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਤੇ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ। ਕੀ ਕਦੇ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਸਵਾਲ ਜਵਾਬ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਵੀ ਜਵਾਬ ਤਲਬੀ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ? ਹਾਂ ਪ੍ਰੋ. ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਇਹ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ। ਆਪ ਕਹਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੋਲੋਂ ਵੀ ਇਕ ਸਵਾਲ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਕੀ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚ ਪਈ ਹੋਈ ਬਦਬੂ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੀ।

08 DS - NO MENTION OF AMRIT IN DASAM GRANTH
ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਵਲੋਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ। ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਵਇ ਜ਼ਫ਼ਰਨਾਮਾ  ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਦੀ ਸਿਰਜਨਾ ਤੋਂ ਤਿੰਨ ਸਾਲ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਤਕ ਮੁਕੰਮਲ ਹੋ ਚੁਕੀ ਸੀ। ਸੋ ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ ਦੀਆਂ ਘਟਨਾਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਜਿਕਰ ਪ੍ਰੋ. ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਹੁਤ ਹੀ ਕੋਝੇ ਢੰਗ ਨਾਲ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ।

09 DS - 15 POTHIS IN THE NAME OF BHAI MANI SINGH
ਬਿਨਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਜਾਂ ਹਵਾਲੇ ਦੇ ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਪੰਦਰਾਂ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਕੀ ਰਾਗੀ ਜੀ ਇਹ ਲਿਸਟ ਦੇਣ ਦੀ ਖੇਚਲ ਕਰਨ ਗੇ? 


10 DS - DASAM GRANTH IS A BRAHMIN
ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਇਕ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹੈ। ਖਾਲਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਨਿਆਰਾ ਪਨ ਬਖਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਦਸਮ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਅਤੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸੰਚਾਰ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਸ੍ਰੋਤ ਪ੍ਰਤੀ ਇਹ ਕਹਿ ਕੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਲਗੀਧਰ ਪਿਤਾ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ।

11 DS - ATTACKS ARDAS
ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਇੱਥੇ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਪ੍ਰਤੀ ਭੰਬਲ ਭੂਸਾ ਪਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ।

12 DS - DASAM GRANTH AFTER 100 YEARS
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਵਾਇ ਜ਼ਫ਼ਰਨਾਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਦੀ ਸਿਰਜਨਾ ਤੋਂ ਤਿੰਨ ਸਾਲ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਤਕ ਮੁਕੰਮਲ ਕਰ ਲਿਆ ਸੀ। ਇਸ ਗਲ ਦੀ ਗਵਾਹੀ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿਬਰ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਉਣ ਤੋਂ ਇਕ ਸੌ ਸਾਲ ਬਾਅਦ ਹੋਂਦ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ।

15 DS - HAZUR SAHIB GOLAK
ਸਿਖ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ ਵਿਚ ਵਰਣਤ ਪੰਜਾਂ ਤਖਤਾਂ ਦੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਦੀ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਿਖ ਰਾਇ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਿਖ ਹਜੂਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਾਣਾ ਬੰਦ ਕਰ ਦੇਣ। ਗੋਲਕਾਂ ਬੰਦ ਹੋ ਜਾਣ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਤਾ ਲਗ ਜਾਏ ਗਾ।


16 DS - HAZUR SAHIB A SHOP
ਕਿਸੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਜਹਾਂਗੀਰ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਸਚਿਖੰਡ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਮੰਦਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਦੁਕਾਨੇ ਬਾਤਿਲ, ਇਕ ਦੁਕਾਨ ਕਿਹਾ ਸੀ। ਅਜ ਜਹਾਂਗੀਰ ਦੀ ਰੂਹ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਮਾਨ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਚਿਖੰਡ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਜੂਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਦੁਕਾਨ ਦਸਦਿਆਂ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਬੰਦ ਕਰਾਣ ਦੀ ਵਕਾਲਤ ਅਤੇ ਤਰੀਕਾ ਦਸ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ । ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਿਖ ਉਥੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਬੰਦ ਕਰ ਦੇਣ, ਸਵੇਰੇ ਇਹ ਦੁਕਾਨਾਂ ਬੰਦ ਹੋ ਜਾਣਗੀਆਂ।


17 DS - HAMBURG DOUBT ON NITNEM
ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਲਗੀਧਰ ਪਿਤਾ ਦੀ ਨਾਸਤਿਕਤਾ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਵਲੋਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸੰਚਾਰ ਦੀਆ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਪੰਜ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਬੂਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ।

22 DS - 250508 BALA SAHIB DUJA GURU
ਰਾਗੀ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਤੀਸਰੀ ਸ਼ਤਾਬਦੀ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਸਮਾਗਮ ਕੇਵਲ ਇਕ ਬਹਾਨਾ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ 



ਗੁਰਚਰਨਜੀਤ ਸਿੰਘ ਲਾਂਬਾ

GURCHARANJIT SINGH LAMBA, Advocate
Editor - Sant Sipahi [Estd.1945]

Camp Office: USA
Phone: M - 001-973-699-0950
           R-  001-201-998-3978

www.santsipahi.org,  www.patshahi10.org


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## Admin (Nov 25, 2009)

No doubt they have chosen an Advocate to run their show, The Brahmans!! He is very cunning instigating emotions to derive home an event that will split Sikh Panth... this is what the Brahmans want... split, another split and another one... end of the story... :welcome:


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## Hardip Singh (Nov 25, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> No doubt they have chosen a Advocate to run their show, The Brahmans!! He is very cunnings instigating emotions to derive home a event that will split Sikh Panth... this is what the Brahmans want... split another split and another one... end of the story... :welcome:


 
An appeal to Dhan Guru Teg Bhadur jeo,
Pl come back to this earth and see to yourself. These people have forgotten your sacrifice. Pl forgive them and educate us what to do ????????


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2009)

Hardip ji 

Guru lives within each and everyone of us. Do you think that this experience is itself teaching us? And that we will come out of this painful experience stronger and more confident as to who we are and what his sacrifice tells us what we must do? 

Forgive me if you meant for Aman ji to respond.


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## ssira (Dec 3, 2009)

Brahmgyani@ appears..I will continue to BELIEVE IN Prof Darshan Singh as he has the Best CREDENTIALS...he knows what he is talking about without being a fake brahmgyani... 
Regarding your above comment I think you are mixing about real Brehmgiani and a preacher. If someone talks truth once or few times in his life doesn't become a Brehgiani. You want to believe him, no problem. He is still not a Brehmgiani for many many sikh sangat. Our concern here is to talk against any Sikh historic writings, few examples are (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Granth Sahib, Sarbloh Granth, Sakhian, 100 sakhi, Bh balaji Sahi and many more) You need to be a Brehmgiani. That all I am asking for. Please do not talk against any Sikh preaching if you are not a Brehgiani.<?"urn:fficeffice" />
 Now whatever example in Sri Dasamgranth Sahib so called not dicussable in family is all awareness to a sikh sangat. Just like in Chandi Di War Guru is just presenting Chadi di Devi's real character that she was a good warrior. That doesn't mean He is accepting her as God. Don't label these kind of awareness’s in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib as this is Guru Gobind Sing is Saying (As translated by Prof Darshan Singh in that Video Recording). These are just examples some to follow (Good one) and some not to follow (Bad one).
WGJKK WGJKF


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2009)

ssira ji

Don't you believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj is different from the other works that you listed. They are historic works. But Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not an historic work. It is the Guru's word -- the Guru itself. It is different. No?


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## spnadmin (Dec 4, 2009)

ssira ji

Forgive me, bu your response was an exact duplicate of post 45. I have posed to you a question about your statement in post 45. Let me rephrase my question regarding the post 45. Do you consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj as only one granth on a list of several historic books, or as something that is the revealed Satguru's banee?

You have not clarified anything by repeating your previous comments. Thanks


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2009)

ssira ji

This is the third time you have posted the same comment. At this point your posts are considered spam and you are considered a spammer. This is a warning and an infraction will be issued.


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## bsbasan (Dec 6, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> THE FACTS
> 
> Professor Darshan Singh, a former Jathedar of The Akal Takht, has for several decades dazzled Sikhs around the world with his inspiring kirtan and erudite discourses on gurbani.
> 
> ...




Dear Aman Singh Ji,

I have seen the 80's and 90's with very young eyes. I was into an age group at that point of time, where people make their first choices as to how they will lead their life.

I was mesmerized by Ragi's Kirtan then. He was the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib then. Me and my friends use to follow his car on our motorcycles and would always be in the front rows or by his side whenever he performed in Delhi. Quietly, we had submitted ourselves to him. His Kirtan then was always in "Bir Ras" and 98 out of 100 times, the Shabads were from "Sri Dasham Granth Sahib" (SDGS). 

We used to look upon him a saviour of the Panth.

in 1989 in Rakab Ganj Sahib, he sang "Harmandir Soyee Aakhiye, Jitho Har Jaata".

We cried, We wept, We touched his feet.

What was so special about him ??

He used to create magic out of Kirtan. His quotes out of SGGS and SDGS were so powerful and he used to beautifully intermingle quotes from 500 angs apart and yet deliver the same message out each and every quote. 

He seemed so full and ultimate in interpretation and understanding of Gurbani of both the Granths.

Now everybody please please take out some time and listen to following 
http://www.mediafire.com/file/myk1nm12nzz/correct-your-mistake.mp3

Professar Sahib is now explaining why he performed Kirtan from SDGS before. his explanation is that he is a Ragi and it is difficult to extract Shabads out of SGGS. 

He says, When Amrit pothi came he depended upon Amrit Pothi and took Shabads out of Amrit Pothi and performed Kirtan. 

He says, it was not possible to him to ascertain that the Shabads, quoted from SDGS, were according to Gurmat or not. 

According to him, This was the reason, as to why he performed Kirtan from SGDS before.

Sadh Sangat, I have an MP3 CD of Professor Sahib wherein he has done complete Vyakhya of "Twa Prasad Sawaiye".

Now a Ragi, whose Hallmark is his knowledge and his ability to interlink Bani out of various scriptures (He quotes liberally from Bhai Gurdas Vaars, SGDS), says he was unable throughout his life to ascertain that in what context a Bani was written in SGDS.

This is something impossible to comprehend and Digest.

I have lost complete faith in him and in my opinion, he is not able to digest the fact that now he is not the focal point of the Panth (As he used to be in 80's and 90's) and he is desperate to comeback to limelight.

I think that the decision to excommunicate him is justified. 

I have full recording of the Rochester programme. 

He has really stooped low this time.

WGJKK, WGJKF


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 6, 2009)

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype> 





bsbasan said:


> Dear Aman Singh Ji,
> 
> I have seen the 80's and 90's with very young eyes. I was into an age group at that point of time, where people make their first choices as to how they will lead their life.
> 
> ...


Bsbasan ji,
Guru Fateh.

 1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values? 

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS, our only Guru?

3. How can one stop someone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

4.How and who can  ex-communicate "Gobind"? 

Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.

Something to ponder about!

Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmander sahib. 

As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith, they themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of SGGS.

Let us never forget that SGGS is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on our only Guru’s  teachings.

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 7, 2009)

Bhai Lehnna Ji..was a DEVI Bhgat for DECADES of his life...going to Naina Devi to worship year in..year out...one fien day he CHANGED..and a Hindu devi bhagat, idol worshipper..became GURU ANGAD JI....Did i LOSE RESPECT For Bhai Lehnna Ji because of this CHANGE ??

Bhai Amardass Ji was a Devi Bhagat for even LONGER..well INTO his OLD AGE....and then one fine day eh too CHANGED...from a Idol worshipping Hindu into GURU AMARDASS JI..who gave us the Shahakaar ANAND SAHIB....do i lose my respect for Bhai amrdass ji for CHANGING his LIFE LONG beliefs....???

And yet some ask me to "lose my respect" for Singh Sahib darsahn Singh Ji..simply becasue he too CHANGED and stopped singing dg poems when he REALISED the TRUTH about them...??? NO Siree..I will NOT lose any respect...I respect HIM MORE because he ahs shown the COURAGE..just like Bhai lehnna Ji..and Bhai Amardass Ji before him..that a SIKH is one who NEVER stops LEARNING....a "sikh" who has stopped learning is liek the stagnant pool !!:happysingh:


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## bsbasan (Dec 7, 2009)

Sat Sri Akal Ji,

Your reply has really hit me hard. Especially when you say  - who can ex-communicate "Gobind".

It is true, who are we to pass any judgement on anybody.

So I take back my words that "The decision to Ex-communicate him was justified".

But I, as an individual, has no faith in Professor Sahib anymore. Especially after hearing the media fire link.

The link has been taken from Professor Sahib's websire only. So he cannot say, as he has been saying regarding Rochester Video that "It is doctored".

WGJKK, WGJKF


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## Hardip Singh (Dec 7, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Bhai Lehnna Ji..was a DEVI Bhgat for DECADES of his life...going to Naina Devi to worship year in..year out...one fien day he CHANGED..and a Hindu devi bhagat, idol worshipper..became GURU ANGAD JI....Did i LOSE RESPECT For Bhai Lehnna Ji because of this CHANGE ??
> 
> Bhai Amardass Ji was a Devi Bhagat for even LONGER..well INTO his OLD AGE....and then one fine day eh too CHANGED...from a Idol worshipping Hindu into GURU AMARDASS JI..who gave us the Shahakaar ANAND SAHIB....do i lose my respect for Bhai amrdass ji for CHANGING his LIFE LONG beliefs....???
> 
> And yet some ask me to "lose my respect" for Singh Sahib darsahn Singh Ji..simply becasue he too CHANGED and stopped singing dg poems when he REALISED the TRUTH about them...??? NO Siree..I will NOT lose any respect...I respect HIM MORE because he ahs shown the COURAGE..just like Bhai lehnna Ji..and Bhai Amardass Ji before him..that a SIKH is one who NEVER stops LEARNING....a "sikh" who has stopped learning is liek the stagnant pool !!:happysingh:


Three CHEERS for the Proffesor. Waheguru jee Bless his courage. They were shy of him and didnot have courage to face him thats why they didnt turn up at the AT turmac and keep on hiding in the safe heavens of their AC rooms in the so called AT secretirate.


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

bsbasan said:


> Sat Sri Akal Ji,
> 
> Your reply has really hit me hard. Especially when you say  - who can ex-communicate "Gobind".
> 
> ...




With all due respect, the author of the original video file said it was doctored, and that a complete version was offered and refused by JUS Punjabi TV.  This was in the news for an entire week and reported here.

The Akal Takht refused to view it. To do so would have meant a pubic humiliation for Mr. Lamba, who took the original CD, has his own programming on JUS Punjabi TV (privately owned) and is a stalwart adviser to SGPC and the camp of Badal.


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## Hardip Singh (Dec 7, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> With all due respect, the author of the original video file said it was doctored, and that a complete version was offered and refused by JUS Punjabi TV. This was in the news for an entire week and reported here.
> 
> The Akal Takht refused to view it. To do so would have meant a pubic humiliation for Mr. Lamba, who took the original CD, has his own programming on JUS Punjabi TV (privately owned) and is a stalwart adviser to SGPC and the camp of Badal.


 
Hard fact. They cant refute this. Pl wait, I am trying to get one of the origional copies from my source in NY.


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

Hardip Singh ji

I really appreciate your diligence in this matter of the CD. At this point, I am reminded of how difficult it is to seat a jury at a trial in the US. Honestly I cannot say what happens in India.

If someone wants to believe that the CD proffered by Lamba to Akal Takht is the real thing, there is no way he/she will be convinced to the contrary. If someone wants to believe that Professor Darshan Singh years ago performed kirtan of Dasam Pita, and "changed his mind," there is no way to convince that person that changing your mind is not a bad act. If someone wants to believe that the Professor said that Chariters 21-23 are by Dasam Pita, even though he has spent years saying that they are not, again the idea is fixed in mind. It will not be shaken loose like nuts from a tree. 

SPN has put out literally reams of information from international media sources on these points.

It is probably time to move on to a different question. What is the real game plan? What is the hidden agenda? Excommunication of Professor Darshan is not the goal. Demeaning him is the means to the end of something much bigger and more serious.


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

BTW - I and others have said this on this and other Internet venues.
*
The goal is to change the Sikh Rehat Maryada in such a way that the Diaspora can do nothing about it. *

This is the big strategy in the game-book of Badal. And this has been reported several times here at SPN even before the Professor Darshan controversy started, months before it started. Professor Darshan is only one movable piece in a chess-game.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 8, 2009)

Here is  a little background i  just wrote about this game plan....as alluded by Narayan Ji above...Mail posted to ANZ_SIKHS @Yahoogroups.com ( a good sikhi/gurmatt based yahoo group that one should join )...
Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

It is precisley that all this "fort of fakery" has been built brick by brick. It was written..PEEVOH PAHUL KHANDEYDHAAR..hoevh Janam suhela...and this was subtly and so slyly transformed into something it is NOT..over the past few decades..

Similarly our "history" is being adulterated and falsified right under our noses...Huge signboards proclaim this and that Beri has this and that "power"...this and that dead stock of an old tree was used by so and so Guru to tie His Horse..so its HOLY...so and so sat under this tree..its holy...poojan yog.....such and such Guru drank milk out of a vessel with a hundred or so holes..so water in it is "Amrit"..in Fact everything is AMRIT these days..water kept in Bottles under the Plaki Sahib is "amrit"..water from this sarovar or that sarovar or this Baoli and that baoli is "Amrit"..aandh vishwaash and more andh vishwaash is being promoted right inside Historical Gurdwaras..Ghee Jyots burn beside SGGS in Gurdwars under the SGPC when its SRM the Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly PROHIBITS such...Model Aeroplanes are being matha teked in front of SGGS to make the dream migration to Canada/USA/Germany/France....<wbr>anywhere except India..come true...samadhs are being used for Akhand Paaths...Amrtidharees wearing kirpans and all are matha teking and chharraying chadrs at Muslim Pir Graves..marrhees...sikh women are daily visiting DERAS of all types in search of instant cures such as domestic violence/alcoholism/drug adicts/as husbands/sons/daughters in law who always give birth to gilrs...maortgages, karza..suicides...and the Babas and their chelas there then carry out even more horrendous Mental and Physical Torture of these helpless women, raping them and looting them of their wealth..these fools "donate" all their milk supplies and best Ghee to these saadhs and worthless parasites and their children drink weak chah or watered down lassee..scores of the ebst milker cows and buffaloes are donated to saadh deras instead of producing milk for their children...milk is being used to wash Gurdawra floors and Nishan Sahibs...Has every child in Punjab been fed enough Milk that we cna afford to waste this precious resource to wash floors..is this sanctioned in Gurbani ? Gurbani  says Greeb da Moohn is Gurus Golak..BUT today OUR GOLAK is for  the Rich and Powerful to control the Gurdwaras and pay Goondas to whack Gursikhs..our Langgars feed the over fed sikhs and NOT greebs who are not even allowed to sit near the Gurdwara langgar halls..
And now this last straw that breaks the camels back...an undisguised attempt to even "take the Guru down"..by promoting a book as equal and Gurbani when Guur Gobind Singh Ji Himself clearly established the Gurgadee of Nanak is passed down to One and Only SGGS for eternity.

For more than 60 years, the SGPC by using only the three takhat jathedars in Punjab under their control and adding two more mere GRANTHIS/Head Granthis employed at Harmandir sahib to make up the 5 Takhat jathedars (technically only 3 Takhat Jathedars) and EXCLUDING the Takhat Patna and Hazoor Sahib Jathedars, managed to pass all Hukmnamahs to their liking. That was becasue the two outside Jathedars were follwoing a Maryada entirley OUT OF SYNC with the SRM of Akal Takhat/SGPC...But over the past decade or so the SGPC Maryada has been so much corrupted that it is now almost identical to the Brahminically inspired Hazoor shaib/Patna Sahib Maryadas..and thus the two OUTSIDE Jathedars began to be invited to Amritsar..even though ocassionally the Patna Jathedar made ridiculous statements that His Takhat was actually superior to Akal takhat etc etc.. So as they say the AAVAA is OOT GIYAH...all are now One and the same..and since the Bachitar natak Granth is paraksh equal to SGGS at these two outside takhats...the emphssis now is to do the same in Punjab as well as demolish the Nanaksahi Calendar and reintroduce the BikriMi Calendar as per RSS/BJP lobby wishes to make Sikhism a branch/offshoot of Hinduism.With the Badals in power in Punjab Govt as well as SGPC all he cares about is the Vote of the deras, ashutoshs, radhasoamis, namdharees and etc etc..Sikhs and Sikhi doesnt matter at all in his equation- to him the END justifies the Means..and its whats HIS END that matters....and the Pliable jathedars sgpc are all at his beck and call.....they are so low down they will do his every bidding without question....or be prepared to go at the drop of a badal hat !! The Emphasis now is to CHANGE the SRM..Sikh Rehat maryada  into a mixture of Hazoor shaib/nanaksar/damdami taksaal/brahminised maryada of Patna sahib/Derawadee Maryadas.....and get it sanctioned as Akal takhat maryada....without the Diaspora Sikhs being able to do anything about it.

It is up to us Diaspora Sikhs to save Sikhi...or our coming generations will never forgive us....

Jarnail Singh
2. Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

It is precisley that all this "fort of fakery" has been built brick by brick. It was written..PEEVOH PAHUL KHANDEYDHAAR..hoevh Janam suhela...and this was subtly and so slyly transformed into something it is NOT..over the past few decades..

Similarly our "history" is being adulterated and falsified right under our noses...Huge signboards proclaim this and that Beri has this and that "power"...this and that dead stock of an old tree was used by so and so Guru to tie His Horse..so its HOLY...so and so sat under this tree..its holy...poojan yog.....such and such Guru drank milk out of a vessel with a hundred or so holes..so water in it is "Amrit"..in Fact everything is AMRIT these days..water kept in Bottles under the Plaki Sahib is "amrit"..water from this sarovar or that sarovar or this Baoli and that baoli is "Amrit"..aandh vishwaash and more andh vishwaash is being promoted right inside Historical Gurdwaras..Ghee Jyots burn beside SGGS in Gurdwars under the SGPC when its SRM the Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly PROHIBITS such...Model Aeroplanes are being matha teked in front of SGGS to make the dream migration to Canada/USA/Germany/France....<wbr>anywhere except India..come true...samadhs are being used for Akhand Paaths...Amrtidharees wearing kirpans and all are matha teking and chharraying chadrs at Muslim Pir Graves..marrhees...sikh women are daily visiting DERAS of all types in search of instant cures such as domestic violence/alcoholism/drug adicts/as husbands/sons/daughters in law who always give birth to gilrs...maortgages, karza..suicides...and the Babas and their chelas there then carry out even more horrendous Mental and Physical Torture of these helpless women, raping them and looting them of their wealth..these fools "donate" all their milk supplies and best Ghee to these saadhs and worthless parasites and their children drink weak chah or watered down lassee..scores of the ebst milker cows and buffaloes are donated to saadh deras instead of producing milk for their children...milk is being used to wash Gurdawra floors and Nishan Sahibs...Has every child in Punjab been fed enough Milk that we cna afford to waste this precious resource to wash floors..is this sanctioned in Gurbani ? Gurbani  says Greeb da Moohn is Gurus Golak..BUT today OUR GOLAK is for  the Rich and Powerful to control the Gurdwaras and pay Goondas to whack Gursikhs..our Langgars feed the over fed sikhs and NOT greebs who are not even allowed to sit near the Gurdwara langgar halls..
And now this last straw that breaks the camels back...an undisguised attempt to even "take the Guru down"..by promoting a book as equal and Gurbani when Guur Gobind Singh Ji Himself clearly established the Gurgadee of Nanak is passed down to One and Only SGGS for eternity.

For more than 60 years, the SGPC by using only the three takhat jathedars in Punjab under their control and adding two more mere GRANTHIS/Head Granthis employed at Harmandir sahib to make up the 5 Takhat jathedars (technically only 3 Takhat Jathedars) and EXCLUDING the Takhat Patna and Hazoor Sahib Jathedars, managed to pass all Hukmnamahs to their liking. That was becasue the two outside Jathedars were follwoing a Maryada entirley OUT OF SYNC with the SRM of Akal Takhat/SGPC...But over the past decade or so the SGPC Maryada has been so much corrupted that it is now almost identical to the Brahminically inspired Hazoor shaib/Patna Sahib Maryadas..and thus the two OUTSIDE Jathedars began to be invited to Amritsar..even though ocassionally the Patna Jathedar made ridiculous statements that His Takhat was actually superior to Akal takhat etc etc.. So as they say the AAVAA is OOT GIYAH...all are now One and the same..and since the Bachitar natak Granth is paraksh equal to SGGS at these two outside takhats...the emphssis now is to do the same in Punjab as well as demolish the Nanaksahi Calendar and reintroduce the BikriMi Calendar as per RSS/BJP lobby wishes to make Sikhism a branch/offshoot of Hinduism.With the Badals in power in Punjab Govt as well as SGPC all he cares about is the Vote of the deras, ashutoshs, radhasoamis, namdharees and etc etc..Sikhs and Sikhi doesnt matter at all in his equation- to him the END justifies the Means..and its whats HIS END that matters....and the Pliable jathedars sgpc are all at his beck and call.....they are so low down they will do his every bidding without question....or be prepared to go at the drop of a badal hat !! The Emphasis now is to CHANGE the SRM..Sikh Rehat maryada  into a mixture of Hazoor shaib/nanaksar/damdami taksaal/brahminised maryada of Patna sahib/Derawadee Maryadas.....and get it sanctioned as Akal takhat maryada....without the Diaspora Sikhs being able to do anything about it.

It is up to us Diaspora Sikhs to save Sikhi...or our coming generations will never forgive us....

Jarnail Singh

2. On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:47 PM, dmsingh65 <dmsingh65@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
                                                   Kirpal Singh ji,


As you wrote:

"Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us a HUKAM to accept Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru. So it is clear that no other Granth or Book or Writing can be equated with Grur Granth Sahib"


 That's very well said.

So if we accept Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru as ordained by Guru Gobind Singh ji, then let's explore our Shabad Guru and see what it says about Amrit? 

'rasna naam japoo thab mathia ein bidh amrit pavoo' M:1, pg 728
'amrit naam parmesar teraa joo simrae soo jivee' M:5, pg 616
'thaal vich tin ......., amrit naam thakur ka paeoo jis ka sabs adaroo' M:5, pg 1429
'amrit naam nidhan hae mil pevoo bhai' M:5, pg 318

Other references of the word amrit are related to Bani and satguru.

'jinaa gurbani maan bhaea amrit chaak chakee' M:4, pg 449
'amrit bachan satgur ki bani joo bolee soo mukh amrit pavee' M4, pg494

My question is how and when we started to call/name the Initiation/Khandee ke pahul as Amrit?

We need to apply the same rational to Nitnem banis. On what basis (whether historical evidence/Guru Granth Sahib) the present day Nitnem banis were decided by the Sikh leaders in 1930/40s? Does reading the same banis every day - some of which are not even part of Guru Granth sahib reflect the thought of Guru Granth sahib?? ('Gur satgur ka joo sikh akhae soo bhal ke udh har naam dhiae')

Regards,

GurFateh!

Devinder Singh

3. In ANZ_SIKHS@yahoogroups.com, kirpal singh <kirpal2singh@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Members of the International Sikh Community,
>  
> Wahegru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
>  
> I wish to draw your attention to the following:
>  
> 1. The current controversy between Jathedars of Akal Takhat Sahib and Prof. Darshan Singh is unnecessary dragging the entire community into it. If Prof. Darshan Singh was clear in his mind that he has not said anything against Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then he should not have accepted to appear at all infront of the Jathedars. He should have ignored a call from misguided Jathedars. The whole drama is nothing but a mockery of Sikh Community at large.
  > .
> It is actually a fight between the current Jathedars of Akal Takhat and a former Jathedar, Prof. Darshan Singh Khalsa - at the cost of humiliating the Sikh Community.
>  
> 2. Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us a HUKAM to accept Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru. So it is clear that no other Granth or Book or Writing can be equated with Grur Granth Sahib. Is the Guru's Hukam not enough to resolve this Dasam Granth issue?
  >  
> The Dasam Granth issue is a deep rooted controversy - If we accept that the Dasam Granth is not attributed to Guru Granth Sahib the the Nitmem Banis and the Amrit are sidelined. If we accept that Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the author of the Dasam Granth the it discredits Guru Ji. It is deep rooted conspiracy to discredit the the Insitution of the Sikhism and Khalsa Panth. We need more careful and serious thinking about this issue. The Community should allow a status quo without a parallel prakash of Dasam Granth with The GURU GRANTH SAHIB till the matter is resolved by a group of ANBHAVI SIKHS.
  >  
> 3. A title "Khalsa" is used by Prof. Darshan Singh - Could any body tell me that who awards this title to individuals or how do individual qualify to get this title. As far history goes Guru Gobind used the word to denote Khalsa Panth. ( It is a querry and not to disregard those who have just chosen to add this title after their names). I asked many people about the origin of  prefix "Professor" added to Prof. Darshan Singh's name but no one has been able to give a satisfactory answer (ag ain a querry please?). The best answer was that he was teahing musi and their he got this title with reverence and not that he was professor in a unversity. In India.
  >  
> 4.A lot has been circulated about recent unrest in Punjab and killing of a Sikh and brutalitly of Punjab Police. No one has questioned those sikh looking-hooligans carrying swords and lathis on the street. I think that such elements who take law in their hands shoud be severaly dealt with. 
  >  
> Every sect or Dera has a civil right with due permission from authorities to hold their functions whether or not another group like it or not.As a Community we should learn to debate effectively rather than  running on streets with naked swords. I am sure that our Gurus will disapprove of such a senseless demonstration. We should tke lead fro Guru Granth Sahib and live with others with respect and diginity.
  >  
> If the Sikh of Bombay hold a religious function and Bal or Raj Takheray say that we shall not allow the Sikh Community to go ahead with their function. I am sure we shallall feel hurt.
>  
> As a Community we should learn not play in hands of a few who have their vested interests rather than in the larger interest of the Sikh Community.
>  
> May Waheguru bless you all.
>  
> Kirpal Singh
>  
>:happysingh:  These are some of the issues that are at the back of all this....Darshan Singh ji is definitley NOT the sole target..he is just a small cog in the chain...


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## Hardip Singh (Dec 9, 2009)

S Davinder Singh wrote this in above post :-
[My question is how and when we started to call/name the Initiation/Khandee ke pahul as Amrit?

*We need to apply the same rational to Nitnem banis. On what basis (whether historical evidence/Guru Granth Sahib) the present day Nitnem banis were decided by the Sikh leaders in 1930/40s?* Does reading the same banis every day - some of which are not even part of Guru Granth sahib reflect the thought of Guru Granth sahib?? ('Gur satgur ka joo sikh akhae soo bhal ke udh har naam dhiae')]

Another undecided/unknown factor till date. Since, nowhere it has been confirmed which of the particular five banis were their at the time of Khande kee pahul By GGS jee. Once, I had visited a gurudwara Sahib in Bhatinda distt. this place is controlled by Bhai Ghaniya jees generations (Sewa Panthi). I was able to join for the Nitnem there in the morning which starts at 2 am. The strange thing was Jaap Sahib was replaced by Sukhmani Sahib in the nitnem. Upon checking with Sant Kahan Singh, the dera cheif there, he confirmed it was their since Bhai Ghaniya jees time and before.


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## ssira (Dec 9, 2009)

Why posting three time?fficeffice" />
Each time after posting my comment I checked back immediately, it is there. I checked after an hour it was missing. So I posted again. Same thing happened again. Today when I posted my comment with similar topic but different thread with a complaint that this will be deleted too, All the posting and reply started coming within 20 min to 30 Min period. What does that explain you figure out now?
I will reply your question later as it is getting late for me.

ssira ji *This is an admin note*. I have been online for about an hour now, after logging back on. Before that this evening, I was online for short periods of time. As far as I can tell, tonight, nothing that you have posted has been deleted. When there is a deletion, the proper thing is for the admin or moderator to leave a note in the thread stating the reasons for the deletion. There is nothing here about that. I will check other threads for you. In the past few days, I have myself deleted your posts because they were duplicate/triplicate comments. *Please see Posts 46, 47 and 48 in this thread.* But each time I did leave a note. What happened this evening. I cannot say. But I will get back to you. Narayanjot Kaur.

OK - I am getting back to you with an update. I have checked all of your posts. There have been 3 deletions, all in this thread, because they were duplicate and triplicate comments. In other words you posted identical comments each time.


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## spnadmin (Dec 9, 2009)

Hardip Singh said:


> Another undecided/unknown factor till date. Since, nowhere it has been confirmed which of the particular five banis were their at the time of Khande kee pahul By GGS jee. Once, I had visited a gurudwara Sahib in Bhatinda distt. this place is controlled by Bhai Ghaniya jees generations (Sewa Panthi). I was able to join for the Nitnem there in the morning which starts at 2 am. The strange thing was Jaap Sahib was replaced by Sukhmani Sahib in the nitnem. Upon checking with Sant Kahan Singh, the dera cheif there, he confirmed it was their since Bhai Ghaniya jees time and before.



Hardip ji, This is entirely understandable!  

The Sewa Panthi, you probably already know this, are in the original sampardaya or traditions that predate the creation of the Khalsa Panth in 1708 by Dasam Pita. Therefore their nitnem draws from the banee of earlier Guru's, Nanak 1 through Nanak 5, as found in the Aad Granth. 
Sewa Panthi are staying within their historic tradition. The Sewa Panthi did not choose Sukhmani Sahib over other prayers. Sukhmani Sahib did not replace Jaap Sahib; rather it continued as part of the Sewa Panthi tradition from the beginning. Jaap Sahib never was part of that tradition. 

I do not know if any other religious book has parkash with the Aad Granth among the Sewa Panthi. However, Bhai Khanaiya had chelas who were Muslims. Sewa Panthi consider the Koran a holy book and draw inspiration from it.  In each of the sampardayas the rehats and the nitnem are different, as are the religious books that share darshan with Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

The uproar in these past few years, leading to the many charges made of heresy and blasphemy, stem from a different place. They stem from grave challenges to whether Dasam Granth has any authentic connection at all to Sri Guru Gobind Singh.

The current controversies, in Finland over Ardaas, in India and the Diaspora over whether Nitnem will change, etc. -- I personally do not see this as a matter of whether Sikhs have options, or whether choices can/cannot be freely made. They raise questions that are very different from questions regarding the practices of the sampardayas. Few question the authenticity of Aad Granth, in large part because of the pains taken by Guru Arjan Dev. He invented a tamper-proof system for binding the shabads of the Aad Granth together. The Granth was sealed. There are many concurrent records that Guru Gobind Singh declared the Aad Granth as Guru Granth.

And the emotions and the venom which surround the challenges to Professor Darshan Singh? There are many unscrupulous and politically motivated players in this drama, whose only motivation is to throw their lot with Badal and SGPC. But for others, the challenges raised to the Nitnem are painful, a grave concern. We have to remember, as you point out, that the record is not at all clear regarding authorship of these prayers, and gets cloudier with each chapter in this story. And so does the tension that surrounds it.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 9, 2009)

.Here is  Mail from the most respected Elder Manmohan Singh baveja Ji of Australia..who writes...

Akal Takhat and its authority
Posted by: "bavejamsingh" bavejams@yahoo.com   bavejamsingh
Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:20 am (PST)

Dear All,

A few months ago, I posted a question ...... as to how did or from where did
Akal Takhat derivie
its authority?

Not a single person was able to reply.

I am posing that question again. Unless we can establish that,Jathedar of
Akal Takhat has the absolute authority to give unilateral ruling on all Sikh
affairs, anything Akal Takhat Jathedar says or dictates is irrelevent.

Akal Takhat had no authority from Guru Sahiban. In fact there was no Akal
Takhat in Guru Sahiban's time. Sixth Guru Sahib started sitting on a
platform opposite Sri Harmander Sahib and declared that as his Takhat or
seat of power to challenge Mogul empire and from there he held his court,
recieve Sangat and declare his plans. No other Guru Sahiban ever visited
that place. For a long time, it was called Akal Bunga - not Akal Takhat.
There is no historical evidence of its being callled Akal Takhat, initially.
Earliest reference is of Maharaja Ranjit Singh arranging an appearance
before Sarabat Khalsa held at Akal Bunga, where he was given a token Tankha,
for violation of Sikh code of conduct by marrying his court dancer.

After Sri Guru Hargobind jee, it was under control of Moguls, untill Khallsa
attacked and took control. Later, the place was under control of Mahnats,
untill SGPC was established after Nakana Sahib Saka, when many Sikhs were
brutely murdered there, as they went to protest against Mahant's bad deeds.

Sikhs got control only around 1925, after passing of Gurdwara Act, which
authorised Sikhs to form SGPC by electing the management committee by
voting. It is only after that some actitivities started to create a central
authority to rule on Sikh affairs, as Sikhs were fragmanted in various
organisations.

Then, the four Gurdwaras were declared as Takhats by Sarbat Khalsa and it
was decided to make all Panthic decisions by joint decisions of 4 Jathedars,
to be announced from Akal Takhat, due to importance of Darbar Sahib and
SGPC, being a legal Sikh organisation.

Initially, the Jathedar of Akal Takhat was appointed by consultation of all
major Sikh organisations, Sants and Deras, for uniersal acceptance and
announced by Sarbat Khalsa,

Somehow, in recent past,Akal Dal politicians controling SGPC, started
appointing their own person as Jathedar of Akal Takhat. Later, SGPC even
unilaterly declared Dum Dama Sahib a 5th. Takhat, without consulting other
Jathedars out of Punjab and without even consulting Sikhs at large. The idea
was to have majority of Jathedars 3 out of total 5, under control of SGPC,
which was in turn under control of Akal Dal politicians.

Later, SGPC even starting ignoring other two Jathedars - Patna Sahib and
Hazoor Sahib and started making decisions by three Jathedars of Punjab and
two head granthis of Harmandar Sahib and Akal Takhat. This, in itself is
absolutely irregular, as never did any authority vest with these three
employed Jathdedars of SGPC and two Head Granthis. They have not even
invited other two Jathedars of Takhat Patna Sahib and Hozoor Sahib. Five
paid employees, controled by politically appointed SGPC management, have not
authority over Sikh Panth at all, other than run the Gurdwaras under SGPC.

Thus, it is time to STOP the wrought and chalange the very base of such
decision making and suxh annoncement by employees of SGPC.

SGPC is an organisation formed under Act of Indian parliament and is only
authorised to manage Gurdwaras in Punjab, as it was after 1947 partition.

I suggest, Singh Sahib Bhai Darshan Singh and Sarna jee to lodge a complaint
with Judicial commission, which overseas SGPC and also file a suite in
Indian courts of law to restrain, such unauthorised bullying by politicians,
who control SGPC.

This is flagrant abuse of trust and respect, Sikhs have been giving to Akal
Takhat, and it is time to define the system, to prevent further abuse.

Manmohan Singh
Australia


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## spnadmin (Dec 9, 2009)

Gyani ji

You know that everything that Manmohan Singh ji is saying is true. He is not making any of this up. And it is not his opinion. Everything can be documented. I do not understand why there is so much bowing and scraping. The record of the jathedars has not been too clean either. This should be an open and shut case. And yes, the court should be petitioned on this for violation of due process and misfeasance. 

Thanks for posting it.


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## ballym (Dec 12, 2009)

bsbasan said:


> Sat Sri Akal Ji,
> 
> Your reply has really hit me hard. Especially when you say - who can ex-communicate "Gobind".
> 
> ...


Just hought to share this... as you seem to be a thinking person able to see reason...
He ( Prof.) did some mistake by referring the King as Guru Gobind Singh. BUT....
Just imagine that next generation ... or say.. sixth next generation from now.... reads Dasam Granth which is by then treated as topmost granth of Sikhs.... those people would think that our gurus wrote about these matters instead of leading us on path of truth?
2. One argument given is that it is written to make the point that all this( whatever is written in those stories) is bad for us and these thing must be shunned.
Do you need to describe in details to tell your kids that you should not do this? It is like ... taking someone to brothel and then asking him /her not to come here!!!
3. By the way, why do we suddenly need Dasam Granth after all these centuries... only after we started talking seriously about separate country( I am not supporting Bhidranwale here. His hijacking of the movement did more harm than good).
4. Darshan Singh is preaching about Supremacy of Guru Granth Saahib. *That message is lost in minor point of referring Guru Gobind Singh as the person in the story*. His main point that promoting and equating this granth with Guru Granth Saahib will kill your religion as your next generations will not like to associate with such a religion having such unauthenticated book as their primary source of inspiration.


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## spnadmin (Dec 12, 2009)

ballym ji

As of yet my own opinion of Bhindranwale has not firmed up. I am divided on this subject. But everything else you have posted is food for thought and I will be letting it settle in deep. Thanks.


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## ballym (Dec 12, 2009)

dalbirk said:


> The Chritro Pakhyan are supposed to be stories showing various shades of character of women . If it is so then it seems a bit wierd , because Sikhism is supposed to be equally for men & women . If shades of women's character are told then shades of men's characters are also to be told . Seems a bit demeaning to women when shades of only WOMEN'S CHARACTER are told & not men's .


 It is a good eye-opener. Was it because hindu religion could not accept someone preaching equality for women in those times and made up a bunch of stories and passed it on as guru's words. It was far more easier to do this in those times. Just imagine , a pious looking person starts stating that he found writings of the guru somewhere and are very good. 
 Hwo could sucha precious( as many people now say) dasam Granth stay hiding until hindus felt threatened that Sikhs may have a separate state for them?  prof. darshan Singh's aim is to keep our religion safe... nothing else. He may have done some silly mistakes but his main point is lost on us. that is what these people wanted. Beware!


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## spnadmin (Dec 12, 2009)

Apologies for interrupting the thread. But once again ballym ji you are hitting the nail on the head.

I have first-hand proof that you are correct. After voicing support of Professor Darshan Singh, and making a few comments on the net that Chaubis Avtar and Charittarpakayn are NOT by the pen of Dasam Pita, I started to get emails telling me that I needed "male" attention.

This is part of the romance. It is so adolescent even when expressed by grey beards in their 60's -- the so-called "Dasam Granth" makes them feel young again, like the "warriors" that only the chosen can become,  with all that talk of crocodiles, sword magic, horses, striking monkeys dead, licking up of blood, sneaking in and out of seamy lairs, and on and on. 

The truth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh is not about any of that. Forgive me again. Guru Gobind Singh and his shaheeds were not King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.


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## ballym (Dec 12, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> ballym ji
> 
> As of yet my own opinion of Bhindranwale has not firmed up. I am divided on this subject. But everything else you have posted is food for thought and I will be letting it settle in deep. Thanks.


At the cost of going a bit off topic, I would like to state that my opinion on Bhindranwale is based on following:
1. His litrary abilities.
2. His length of service which is known to public ( ... may be from 1978 to 1984)
3. His foolishness to stay in golden temple. He was a Kaayar not a martyr. Did he ever led from front?
4. He ultimately caused decimation of atleast one generation of sikhs as Government had to take action. No alternative was left.
5. I am sure that if we had or in future have a good thinking leader, our religion is safe.
People showing him as martyr just want money from illiterate sangat.
the problem is that we do not have well paid religiou teacher like Christians have.
I hope once Badal goes, his control on SGPC will fade and we may have good persons take control.


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## gaganji (Jan 30, 2010)

http://ggsacademy.com/panthicvichar/dasamgranth/edict

Please listen to the Nagpur Seminar.


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## spnadmin (Jan 30, 2010)

gaganji

Thanks -- And 2 hours ago I just joined up with ggsacademy - next stop is to find out how to be helpful in a concrete way.:happykaur:


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Apr 22, 2010)

Dasam Granth
Dasam Granth

this is the link that proves what happened with with the people who opposed Dasham Granth.World has witnesssed that any one who opposes the guru's own baani or make derogatory comments against it will not be spared.

Dasham Granth was never challenged untill the last decade.Even at the time of Maharaja Ranjit singh ji ,it was recited without any conflicts.then suddenly some one comes out and challenges it and an issue is created.there was no issue regarding the authenticity of Dasham Granth Sahib untill 2000 or the last decade  which signifies or proves that the sikh people accepted Dasham Granth as Guruji's own work but the controversy starts when a sikh starts speaking ill of it.


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Apr 22, 2010)

Yes all sikhs do  or should consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib as their eternal Guru  but the Dassam Granth also plays an integral role in the Sikh faith. A  considerable portion of the nitnam Bani is from the Dassam Granth.

All  of the old Taksals or Jathebandi's have shown utmost respect to Dassam  Granth. A Sikh will be incomplete without the Bani of the dassam Granth!

Refuting  the supremacy of the Dassam Granth is one issue but to claim that our  own Guru was characterless is totally unacceptable!

Where do we  draw the line with preachers? If pds can make this claim then what other  bogus claims will be made?

It's quite ironic that the Bani of  Dassam Granth gave pds a healthy income via kirtan but now he considers  it worthless!

What are preachers such as pds trying to achieve by  creating more schisms in the Panth?

We all say that SGGS is our  Guru but does not SGGS tell us to unite rather than divide?

The  older Taksals and Jathebandi's have kept the maryada of Guru Ji intact  since Guru Ji's time. The new preachers seem to claim that anything  other than their own knowledge is worthless!

Have you ever seen  these preachers dong sewa in a Gurdwara anywhere such as dusting  sheets,cleaning soes,preparing and serving langar,or general cleaning?  If not then these are the fundamental principles of becomng a Sikh.

Before  making any judgements on the Dassam Granth I would urge you to listen  to the entire SGGS Katha by Takhur Singh Patiala. You can download this   free of charge at <!-- m -->http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org<!-- m -->


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## Admin (Apr 22, 2010)

> A  considerable portion of the nitnam Bani is from the Dassam Granth.


Gurfateh Jagmeet Singh Ji!

This argument is used in every discussion on this topic but this is quite a flawed argument simply because so-called Dasam Granth in its present form was complied only in 1903 by Sodhak Committee setup under the influence and pressure of the treacherous regime of British Imperialists. British, who had come to India to plunder whatever was leftover in  India. And we very conveniently tend to forget that these British  imperialist were known for their divide and rule policy? They have given us  the partition of 1947, they split the land of Sikh Gurus, Punjab into  two nations, which can now never be enjoined. And still we believe that whatever this Sodhak Committee did was alright? Are we not fooling ourselves here?

I see no reason as to why would shrewd British would try to resurrect Sikh religion, which they had successfully subdued and put well into the dumps? Afterall, Sikhs had been their biggest enemies and in between them they fought three epic wars and so British knew the prowess of Sikhs. Then, why would they allow the Sikh faith to gain momentum which was going to challenge them eventually? The only *sane* thing that they could have done to Sikhs was to demolish the basics of Sikh Panth in totally so that Sikhs could never recover!

 So, coming back to the topic originally, Panth's approved Nitnem Banies were never really part of so-called Dasam Granth. To make a claim that Nitnem Banies were a part of so-called Dasam Granth is a total mis-information. 

As a matter of fact, quite shockingly, Zafarnama, was also not part of the so-called Dasam Granth originally. It was only included by the Sodhak Committee in 1903, in the so-called Dasam Granth after there were verifiable third party Persian historical evidences found that confirmed that Guru Gobind Singh ji indeed authored Zafarnama Himself. 

One more point that needs consideration here is, and you might not be aware, is that there were about 34 variations of so called Dasam Granth available with the Sodhak Committee in 1903 to pick and choose from and 'decide' which were the hand written Banies by the Tenth Master. 

*Quite, interestingly, the following seven compositions were removed from  existing compilations: 
*

*Sahansar  Sukhmana*
*Vaar  Malkauns*
*Vaar  Bhagautee Kee*
*Sri  Bhagwant Gita Bhaksha Guru Gobind Singh Kirat*
*Raag Asa and Raag Sorath Pt. 10*
*Asfotak Kabits Majh Pt. 10*
*Chakka Bhagautee Ka*
It seems these compositions were randomly removed from the so-called Dasam Granth in such a way so as to make the page count of the Dasam Granth (1428 pages) round about similar to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (1430 pages), out only Guru! 

The following questions have been raised time and again:



Why above seven poetic compilations were removed from Dasam Granth by the Sodhak Committee, which was formed under the direct influence and control of British imperialists.


Who gave these member of Sodhak Committee an authority to decide which is Guru's bani and which is not? Don't you think its like putting words in the mouth of the Guru?
There is more to the puzzle than putting a blanket cover the whole issue.  

Prof. Darshan Singh is not the first person ever to question the authenticity of so-called Dasam Granth and will not be the last either if these core questions are not addressed to the satisfaction of Sikh Panth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf
Gurfateh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 22, 2010)

Aman Singh ji,
If the most of the Nitnem banis are not part of the Dasam Granth, where are they coming from? 
I think that argument has less to do with Dasam Granth and more to do with the authenticity of the Banis, and the question: Why non-SGGS writings are  in nitnem?


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## Bmandur (May 22, 2010)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*



ranghi29 said:


> Prof. Darshan Singh was myfavorite
> 
> Gurfateh Ranghi JI
> 
> ...


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## Bmandur (May 22, 2010)

[


*The following questions have been raised time and again:*



*Why above seven poetic compilations were removed from Dasam Granth by the Sodhak Committee, which was formed under the direct influence and control of British imperialists.*

*Who gave these member of Sodhak Committee an authority to decide which is Guru's bani and which is not? Don't you think its like putting words in the mouth of the Guru?*
There is more to the puzzle than putting a blanket cover the whole issue.  

*Prof. Darshan Singh is not the first person ever to question the authenticity of so-called Dasam Granth and will not be the last either if these core questions are not addressed to the satisfaction of Sikh Panth*.

Aman Singh ji you are right 101%

Akal Takhat has to provide us an answer on those quoestion
Bhul CHuk Maaf
BMandur


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## Bmandur (May 22, 2010)

Jagmeet_hazursahib said:


> Yes all sikhs do or should consider
> 
> *Have you ever seen these preachers dong sewa in a Gurdwara anywhere such as dusting sheets,cleaning soes,preparing and serving langar,or general cleaning? If not then these are the fundamental principles of becomng a Sikh.*
> 
> *YES I HAVE SEEN Preachers HERE IN CANADA ONTARIO*


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## Bmandur (May 22, 2010)

aman singh said:


> the facts
> 
> professor darshan singh, a former jathedar of the akal takht, has for several decades dazzled sikhs around the world with his inspiring kirtan and erudite discourses on gurbani.
> 
> ...


*jeo singh sahib jeo*


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## roopsidhu (May 23, 2010)

SSA,
Very good posts by Bmandur ji,
I wonder that the persons writing in favour of DG are ignorant or motivated by anti-sikh elements. The facts about charitropakhian are so clear even a common man can reach to conclusion easily. The ones who are not ready to understand are not willing to understand purposely.
I can not understand another thing happening in these threads. How come that some one appriciate one post and again appriciate the next post also which is totally contradictory to the earlier post. If one person is appriciating both posts which contradict each other, what we should understansd from it.
May be I could not understood the phenomenone. If some one can explain it please.
Roopsidhu


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## spnadmin (May 23, 2010)

roopsidkhu ji

In reaction to your comment that some points of appreciation in this thread were contradictory: I went back a few pages and re-read some of the comments. I did not see too many instances of that contradiction. 

Some remarks may have seemed at opposites but were not so much at odds but just about this or that different part of the controversy. So that might make it look as if some people were appreciating the contradictory posts. This may explain. The thread continued for several pages over an extended period during the height of the controversy regarding the "excommunication" of Professor Darshan Singh. There were some shifts in attention to various aspects of that controversy. To me it looks as if a group of people, who  were in basic agreement, still disagreed on one point and agreed on the others. Thus their pattern was not uniform in expressing "Thanks" or appreciation. It is hard to reconstruct what people may have meant over a stretch of time.


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## roopsidhu (May 23, 2010)

SSA,
thanks Narayanjot kaur ji


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## Deepinder Singh New Delhi (Jun 7, 2010)

HI all,
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Just read all of your thoughts - negative and positive about Darshan Singh Ji. Felt that we are all beating about the bush where the bush is not even present. Prof. Darshan Singh ji never meant that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was not the author of DG. Instead, he wanted to say that some portions have been inserted by the Hindu scholars just to keep maintaining the Hindu rituals hegemonic control (indirect form of) on Sikhs. I would not ponder whether he is right or wrong, but I would give you examples, which you can read and thus judge youself whether Guru Gobind Singh can write all these verses. The whole article is from an excerp of Devender Singh Sekhon which I happenned to locate on the net:

1. According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Waheguru never takes any physical form, he is formless and never born as a living being. The lines to support this faith are:

a) Ekonkar Sat Nam Karta Purkh Nirphau Nirvaer Akal Murat Ajuni Saibhang Gurprasad - by Guru Nanak Dev Ji
  b) Roop na rekh na rang kich, trihu gun te prabh phin - Arjun Dev Ji\
  c) Tudh roop na rekheya jaat tu verna bahra, eh manas jaane door tu verte zahra - Arjun Dev Ji
  d) Chakar chihn er baran jaat er paat nahin jih, roop rang er rekh bhekh kouoo keh na sakat kih - Guru Gobing singh Ji
  e) Sehus tuv nain none nain hai tohe, kaho sehus moorat nana ek tohi - Guru Nanak Dev ji

In Bichitra Natak, the God is descibed as having physical form which is very scary, unpleasant, and even ridiculous. In first chapter, 18<sup>th</sup> couplet, 
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  a)         Krang baam chapyang kirpanang kralang. Maha tej tejang birajai bisalang.
  Maha dahr dahrang su sohang aparang. Jinai cherbiang jeev jagyang hazarang
 <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
 <!--[endif]-->
  Meaning: God holds a bow in His left hand and a terror-striking sword in His right hand. He is seated with a powerful bright light emanating from Him. With His huge jaws, He looks very impressive among living beings with big jaws.  He has chewed down thousands of the living beings of the world. 
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Again in 21<sup>st</sup> Couplet,
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  b)             Ghurang ghunghreyang dhunang navreyang. 
  Maha naad naadang surang nirbikhadiyang.
              Siran maal rajang.  Lakhe Ruder lajang
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Meaning: The bells around His ankles are ringing like a necklace of the foot, and are making a very loud noise.  God has a garland of scalps around His neck which puts even god Shiva to shame.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  c)         Maha gerj gerang.  Sunne doot lerjang. 
              Servang sroan sohang.  Maha maan mohang
  Meaning: The messengers begin to tremble to hear the loud roar of God.  Blood is flowing from His throat which is charming even the very proud
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  d)         Chatur bahu charang.  Creeting su dharang. 
  Gada sankh chakarang.  Dippe kroor bakarang
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Meaning: God has four beautiful arms. He is wearing a crown on His head, and is holding a gada (a spherical metallic fighting instrument), a conch, and a chakar ( a very sharp circular hollow disc)
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  e)         Dirh darh kral dvai sait udhang.  Jih bhaj dushat bilok judhang
  Madmat kirpan kral dharang.  Jaya sadd sura suryang oochrang
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Meaning: God has two, tall, white, scary jaws which strike terror among the demons who flee the battle field. The intoxicated God holds a dreadful sword in His hand. 
  Both - the gods, and the demons - chant victory to Him.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  f)            Sehsrachh jaako shubh sohe.  Sehas pud jaake tan mohe.
  Shesh Naag per soibo kare.  Jagteh shekhsai oochrey
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  It is clear from the few couplets given above that God has a definite physical form. Not only that, the God of the Naatak is shown more like a demon than a kind, affectionate, and fatherly Power. Why is He wearing a garland of human scalps around His neck, and why is blood flowing from His throat? Is He wounded, or does He drink blood? In either case, He is nothing like the God of Guru Nanak. This physical picture of God that has been painted, resembles the Hindu gods and goddesses shown in pictures, particularly Mata Kali, who is shown wearing a garland of human scalps, and who has blood flowing from her mouth. The conch, gada, and the chakra are the symbols of Vishnu and not of the God of Guru Nanak. In His Fifth Spiritual Form as Guru Arjun, Guru Nanak makes it very clear that being formless, God does not wear any of the above items.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
              Na Sankhang na chakarang na gada na Siamang. Ascharaj roopang rahant janamang. Nate nate kathant Beda. Ooch Mooch Apaar Gobindeh.
              (Sloak Sehaskriti M:5)
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Meaning: God is limitless, He is great and is  beyond our reach. The Bedas say there is none like Him. He does not wear a conch, a chakar, nor a gada. And He is Not Siyam 
  (Krishan or Vishnu). He is amazing and never takes birth.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Now how can the same Guru in His Tenth Spiritual Form can write that God has a physical form with all those characteristics. The God of  Bachittar Naatak also has four arms, two large jaws, but thousands of eyes and feet. It is not clear why He has thousands of feet, but only two eyes. He wears an arrow, and a cannon. He sleeps on Sheshnaag, As we will discuss later, all these attributes are in complete contradiction of the Gurbani. Also, the enemies flee the battle field when they hear His roar. We wonder who His enemies are whom He scares with His roar! The God of this Naatak goes to sleep too. We wonder who runs the Universe at that time! The God in Guru Granth Sahib never goes to sleep. He is the only one who is awake all the time. All the attributes of the God of Bachittar Naatak are those of a living being which the Gurbani refutes strongly. The next two sacred words confirm that God is always awake.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Ikko Satgur jagta hoar jag soota mohi piyas – Third Guru
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
              Paati torre malini paati paati jeeo. -----         Kabir Ji[/FONT]
  Bhooli malini hai eho. Satgur jagta hai Deo                                      
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Acording to Sekhon, it is clear that Guru Nanak’s God is completely different from the one described in the Naatak, and also from Guru Gobind Singh’s who writes in Jaap Sahib that God is completely without any form.  How can anyone believe that the same Guru, who is also the tenth spiritual version of Guru Nanak, can write things like the ones written in the Naatak about God? 
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  From the description of God in the Naatak, only the following three conclusions are possible.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->[/FONT]
  1. The Tenth Master is not the author of Bachittar Naatak[/FONT]
  2. Guru Gobind Singh had a different philosophy than Guru Nanak[/FONT]
  3. The characteristics of God underwent a dramatic change from the time of Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh[/FONT]
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Which of these is the correct conclusion? The judgment is left to you.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  There are number of instances he cites like the use of word KAAL instead of AKAL in Nattak, Creation of the Universe has a different philosophy in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Nattak, Gods Characteristics different in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Nattak. Hope this satisfies the curiosity of all.


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## spnadmin (Jun 7, 2010)

Deepinder ji

Thanks for this interesting post. I have the full article, and there is another one very similar to it by the late Dr. Baldev Singh. Both may be posted somewhere on the forum. When I have an opportunity I will look for them and attach them to this post - with your permission.

You have given a very clear and succinct assessment of the problem. :thumbsupp:


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## Bmandur (Jun 8, 2010)

Deepinder Singh New Delhi said:


> HI all,
> 
> 
> *Wao What a Home work you have to go through to explain*
> Thanks


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## leveler (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*



ranghi29 said:


> Prof. Darshan Singh was myfavorite ragi...until i heard his views on Dasam Granth.. He believes that Dasam patshia's Bachitar Nattak and many of other banis of dasam guru are not written by Guru Ji himself... He is really good ragi but i don't think he's bigger Gyani than Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale.. Sant Muskeen Singh.. Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji.. Bhai Balbir Singh.. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji ... And Biggest gyani of them all BRHAM GYANI BABA DEEP SINGH JI... who all have not only read Dasam Granth but also studied it word by word.. all know the meaning of every word... Sant Jarnail SIngh ji khalsa aloso said that if you don't believe in Dasam Granth bani and its  you are nothing but a "NASTAK" ATHEIST... in my eyes he is nothing but an athiest..


To ranghi 29...i think people like u r burden on sikhism .u look like talibani...u dont have stamina to discuss things ..bt u just want to impose.......u have no logic in saying darshan ji  atheist... iif u kindly go through dasam garanth ...u may feel a great contradiction on guru ji own life history and wt has been mentioned  in dasam granth....  this a conspiracy by  few vested interest people to defame guru ji by mixing objectionale quotes in the  dasam grath . bt we weak elements are just becoming victims and started fighting with each other. atleat hats off to darsan singh ji who showed courage to rectify few misleading quotes in dasam granth ...bt our so called selfish and dead brains will nt listen to him...see wt has happened to punjab .everyone is in mad race to cut hair and beard ...be it girl or boy...everyone is doing tht .... punjabis must focus on tht instead of attacking darshan singh ji who had spent life for sikhisim    ..and this wt sikhs are repaying....shame on such elements<!--?"urn:


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## leveler (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*



ranghi29 said:


> Prof. Darshan Singh was myfavorite ragi...until i heard his views on Dasam Granth.. He believes that Dasam patshia's Bachitar Nattak and many of other banis of dasam guru are not written by Guru Ji himself... He is really good ragi but i don't think he's bigger Gyani than Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale.. Sant Muskeen Singh.. Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji.. Bhai Balbir Singh.. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji ... And Biggest gyani of them all BRHAM GYANI BABA DEEP SINGH JI... who all have not only read Dasam Granth but also studied it word by word.. all know the meaning of every word... Sant Jarnail SIngh ji khalsa aloso said that if you don't believe in Dasam Granth bani and its  you are nothing but a "NASTAK" ATHEIST... in my eyes he is nothing but an athiest..


mr rangi ..u must  stop to be  critical  to respectable darshan singh ji , better go through dasam granth , which i dont think u cud have done ..if u ever read this  u will find countless flaws in tht which actually contradicts tenth gurus own teachings and his personal life. just simple question to u ...guru ji himself never payed obesience  at dasam granth ... he bowed only in front of guru granth sahib....secondly....sikhs went through tough periods in past ...during which some hindu scholars doctored dasam granth to the extent tht after reading u will conclude tht god has a big tongue out of his mouth and he is wearing garland of human skulls and blood is oozing out of his mouth...and so on....does this match our defination of god....there are so many such misleading quotes mixed by vested people to confuse sikhs and to benefit hindues ...the hindue pandits  were loosing grip to fool people at the time of sikhs regime . as sikhs  enlightened innocent people ..whom pandits were using to their benefit....and finally they took their revenage to put such things in dasam granth ....any sane person who read it ..will 100 and 1 percent doubt its credibilty...Hats off to darshan singh who showed courage to recity such faults....


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## leveler (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*



ranghi29 said:


> Prof. Darshan Singh was myfavorite ragi...until i heard his views on Dasam Granth.. He believes that Dasam patshia's Bachitar Nattak and many of other banis of dasam guru are not written by Guru Ji himself... He is really good ragi but i don't think he's bigger Gyani than Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale.. Sant Muskeen Singh.. Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji.. Bhai Balbir Singh.. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji ... And Biggest gyani of them all BRHAM GYANI BABA DEEP SINGH JI... who all have not only read Dasam Granth but also studied it word by word.. all know the meaning of every word... Sant Jarnail SIngh ji khalsa aloso said that if you don't believe in Dasam Granth bani and its  you are nothing but a "NASTAK" ATHEIST... in my eyes he is nothing but an athiest..


mr rangi ..any sane person will nt be  critical of  respectable darshan singh ji , better go through dasam granth , which i dont think u cud have done ..if u ever read this u will find countless flaws in tht which actually contradicts tenth gurus own teachings and his personal life. ...sikhs went through tough periods in past ...during which some hindu scholars doctored dasam granth to the extent tht after reading u will conclude tht god has a big tongue out of his mouth and he is wearing garland of human skulls and blood is oozing out of his mouth...and so on....does this match our defination of god....there are so many such misleading quotes mixed by vested people to confuse sikhs and to benefit hindues ...the hindu pandits were loosing grip to fool people at the time of sikhs regime . as sikhs enlightened innocent people ..whom pandits were using to their benefit....and finally they took their revenage to put such things in dasam granth ....any sane person who read it ..will 100 and 1 percent doubt its credibilty...Hats off to darshan singh who showed courage to recity such faults....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


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## Bmandur (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*

Very soon you will see the changes of our religion. Hindu's will not stand any other Religion than Hindu how they are working to finish US. Sikh Com openrup your eyes. watch part 1,2,3,4
http://youtu.be/XhGYOHwrlbg


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## spnadmin (May 31, 2011)

*Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi*

leveler ji

No one has been deleting your messages...until this last one. I checked the moderation log and moderators have not been deleting what you say. Please refrain from using obscenity ...this is your first official warning. Please cooperate so that we can benefit from your insights. Thank you. spnadmin


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## davinderdhanjal (May 31, 2011)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object  classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->  Bmandur Ji,
              The CD is difficult to get hold of in UK but there is all the information now available. You have presented a worrying view of the problem – no doubt there is a worry but what solution do you offer? 
  I know Sikhs are 1-2% of Indian population and can’t play a numbers game. The teachings in Sikhi and SGGS are second to none and hurts no one. There are even Hindus who have read and agreed with it rather than Hindu Scriptures. I am not degrading any Scriptures but the Hindu Scriptures are too many, with too many beliefs – some contradictory – no clear direction and I find SGGS is the easier way to sift the necessary from Hindu and Islam religions. (GS Sidhu has written a book on the differences – Sikh Religion and Hinduism)
  In my opinion the way it has to be tackled is two fold:


Create      at least one Sikh University      outside of India      (UK, Canada      or USA etc.) to produce Khalse protectors of Sikhi and its teaching and      Scriptures. They should have departments of comparative religion studies      and verification of the documents under dispute. They should also provide      means of educating ordinary Sikhs to a level that can allow them to be      able to tell when distortions to Sikhi are being fed down their throat. A      mass media (TV station?) communication to share with Punjab      all Sikh issues (lack of this has led to the problems faced today) should      possibly be a part of this institution.
All      Sikhs made aware of the message that only way to protect the Gift of our      Gurus and their Sacrifices is to pay back by embracing Gursikhi and      approach Khalsahood.  
  There is a mountain of issues on Sikh plate. In UK there are three Sikh channels and they are coming up to speed fast. However as majority of people here and in Punjab have been insulated from the knowledge of destruction of Sikhs and Sikhi it can be too much to cope with all that in short period of time. 
  These issues need prioritising and necessary documentation provided and means of distributing and correspondence developed.


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## Bmandur (Jun 13, 2011)

davinderdhanjal said:


> <OBJECT id=ieooui classid=clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D></OBJECT><STYLE> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </STYLE>Bmandur Ji,
> The CD is difficult to get hold of in UK but there is all the information now available. You have presented a worrying view of the problem – no doubt there is a worry but what solution do you offer?
> I know Sikhs are 1-2% of Indian population and can’t play a numbers game. The teachings in Sikhi and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are second to none and hurts no one. There are even Hindus who have read and agreed with it rather than Hindu Scriptures. I am not degrading any Scriptures but the Hindu Scriptures are too many, with too many beliefs – some contradictory – no clear direction and I find Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the easier way to sift the necessary from Hindu and Islam religions. (GS Sidhu has written a book on the differences – Sikh Religion and Hinduism)
> In my opinion the way it has to be tackled is two fold:
> ...


 
Davinder Dhanjal ji,
 You are right on some point. 
#1)Create at least one Sikh University outside of India (UK, Canada or USA etc.) to produce Khalse protectors of Sikhi and its teaching and Scriptures.
But first we have to work the ROOTS. Roots are our youths.
We are trying our best to show or share our Sikh History through Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle Canada's it's three day evening camp but we called asGurmat Crash courses on our Sikh history on Multimedia.

University's are good out side of India but we have to learned & understand the basic first. 
As you mention In Punjab and 101% agreed with you.
Any TV Station or Radio station, how long they will put an effort at the end it is all comercial progran & they have to what is best for there channel's
same thing at the Gurudwara's what effort they are putting towards Sikhi
All they care out how much money is coming, how to fight, whom to banned
who will get the power. No Sikhi is in there mind. 
So at the end I will say we have to stand together &work how save our ROOTs if we can 
Bhul Chul Maaf


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## Bmandur (Jun 13, 2011)

ssira said:


> Dasam Granth Sahib is not new to the present day sangat. It's been here since long time from the elders and prime example Bh mani singh ji. If any change is required or something is not right it, It should come from a Brahm Giani not a teacher or preacher like Prof: Darshan Singh. If he proves that he will not cry if he is put on hot plate or cut buy a saw, I will take his words otherwise he should just do his kirtal from Sri Guru Granth Sahib as well as from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. If he doesn’t agree with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib he should keep on doing kirtan just from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.Regarding Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, keep his mouth shut and don't heart the Sangat who totally believe in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.


 
I do not Support your thoughts some one hacked in to my loging to support your thought so I am taking it back.
I Do not support your Thoughts. I do belive in Prof Darshan Singh Khalsa and he is the only one who can stand and doing so.
Bhul Chul Maaf


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## Bmandur (Jun 13, 2011)

Breeb said:


> Darshan Singh is the biggest *clown* ever !
> 
> 
> Since this word has been used with impunity by more then one poster on another thread without any intervention or warning by Admin then there is no reason why the word cannot be used here.


Breed Calling others Clown, It shows what value you have in your life.
Sikhs are always open for discussion some you do not like lets talk calling by names doesn’t make you better than anyone else.<?"urn:<img src=" />
Thank you


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 13, 2011)

Its NOT "words"..its the ACTIONS that makes one a Clown...and actions speak louder than words. Clowns get laughed at.....not "attacked"....has any CLOWN been "attacked" ?? To my knowledge..none...but WARRIORS do get attacked..and they know how to defend themselves..as Prof darshan Singh Khalsa did. The Prof is a warrior equal to the likes of Baba deep Singh Shaheed, Bhai mani Singh Shaheed...and he has stood the TEST very well as the Continuing support from sangats worldwide show...while the clowns have been BOOED out ( one even left his Sri Sahib behind on the Table in South hall london recently )and the other supreme clown from parmeshar dwaar is not even worth the paper his advert is printed on.....


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## Uniqsha (Jun 13, 2011)

Breeb said:


> Darshan is to being a warrior as a fish is to riding a bike ! lol
> 
> He uses the title PROFESSOR, yet he is not a professor, at best basic education.
> He is a liar and he misleads, and the fools that follow him will go to the same very dark place that he will go to.


 
Sorry to be disappointed and nag in to your posts. Do you know meaning of Professor
I guess NO
It shows in your few lines who is the foolish one.
If you have any anger in side you Breed, Do some Path Simran, Sewa, 
Basic three things in Sikhism by Guru Nanak dev ji
Naam Japu
Kirat Karo
Vaand shako
If you follows three things in your life, I can promise you , you will forget about The words Clown, Fools & Liar.
ਝਗੜਾਕਰਦਿਆਅਨਦਿਨੁਗੁਦਰੈਸਬਦਿਨਕਰਹਿਵੀਚਾਰੁ॥
Jẖagṛā karḏi▫ā an▫ḏin guḏrai sabaḏ na karahi vīcẖār.
They pass their nights and days in conflict and struggle; they do not contemplate the Word of the Shabad
ਸੁਧਿ[URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਤਿ"]ਮਤਿਕਰਤੈਸਭਹਿਰਿਲਈਬੋਲਨਿਸਭੁਵਿਕਾਰੁ॥
Suḏẖ maṯ karṯai sabẖ hir la▫ī bolan sabẖ vikār.
The Creator has taken away all their understanding and purity; all their speech is evil and corrupt<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



ਦਿਤੈ[/URL]ਕਿਤੈਨਸੰਤੋਖੀਅਹਿਅੰਤਰਿਤਿਸਨਾਬਹੁਅਗਿਆਨੁਅੰਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰੁ॥
Ḏiṯai kiṯai na sanṯokẖī▫ah anṯar ṯisnā baho agi▫ān anḏẖ▫yār.
No matter what they are given, they are not satisfied; within their hearts there is great desire, ignorance and darkness


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## Breeb (Jun 13, 2011)

Uniqsha said:


> Sorry to be disappointed and nag in to your posts. Do you know meaning of Professor
> I guess NO
> It shows in your few lines who is the foolish one.
> If you have any anger in side you Breed, Do some Path Simran, Sewa,
> ...


 
Many thanks for your illuminating words Uniqsha. I will try to contemplate them and follow the three things in sikhism by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Gee I never knew them.

But that does not alter the fact that the man is a clown and an embarrassment. He has rudimentary knowledge of Sikh history and gurbani, how this charlatan had gotten away with it for so long is beyond comrehension. And so many fools follow him... tut tut tut.

This is the same man who has done kirtan and viakhia of gurbani but now when it is pointed out to him that this is the katha he used to do he cries to Youtube to remove videos of him doing katha by saying it is breaching copyright. You cannot hide the truth my friends.


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## Breeb (Jun 13, 2011)

This is the ex-jathedar of Akaal Takhat (now an ex-sikh and all those who support and keep contact with him are breaking the hukamnama) who knows the protocol of the office he held. Yet when summoned by the jathedar he went ego filled with great pomp and ceremony with supporters and parked himself outside the offices. His ego would not let him in, he wanted the jathedar of the Akaal Takhat to come to HIM, rather than in humility present himself to the jathedar. Not the actions of a pious ragi that he wants all to believe he is. 
This is the man who ordered a Singh to be tied to a post as punishment but he himself could not present himself to the same office. Shame on all you who support him, since you do not follow the hukamnama issued from Akaal Takhat you should not consider yourself Sikhs at all.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 13, 2011)

We as persons have no right to condem or applaud the credentials of any individual.We should always look the contribution of the person to the community.We would find that his contribution is exemplary in the present state of affairs.
Views do change when anyone is enlightened to higher wisdom than earlier.We should try to appreciate so long as his views are logically correct  and helpful in eliminating the ignorance of persons at large.
I have personally read many of his contributions related to various matters.His contribution is just meticulous which is the reflection of the real grace of GURU.
There is no harm in acknowledging this fact concerning Pro Darshan Singh Ji.
We should always keep in mind the following Quote from Grbaani
"NINDAA BHALEE KISE KI NAHIN MANMUKH MUGADH KARANi"

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jun 13, 2011)

*Interesting, all this judgment against Professor Darshan Singh and none against a jathedar who is a known bigamist.

Breeb ji You need to get your facts straight. And you need to observe TOS, debate issues not personalities, no ad hominem attacks, no personal attacks. Some of what you are saying actually exposes SPN to legal action for slander, and that has been deleted now. This is your second warning. I do not intend to close another thread because you have visited and begun a program of undermining decent debate. spnadmin.

 In a few minutes you will receive an official infraction, because this is the 4th thread at SPN where you have carried on as you do. *


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 13, 2011)

Breeb Ji

A Jathedar of the Akaal Takhat is still to be respected even if he is now ex Jathedar because he resigned, you should not judge him, you should respect him for the position he held was higher than we will ever hold and because that is what Sikhs do they respect each other and are understanding .
Calling him names is only making you look bad.I understand you are trying to follow the new orders but these are temporal laws ,Respect which is a form of love is an Eternal one that you should honour first.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 13, 2011)

I find that the basic problem seems to be connected with the fact that we Sikhs are not aware of the criterion of Baani being refered as Gurbaani.Once this is clarified and known all the controversies related to Bani other than SGGS is automatically over.
We should make some efforts towards this otherwise there is possibility of any new controvercy propping up at any time.
This is only a small suggestion.We should develop our own understanding to a level where we are able to say either "yes" or "No".
Prakash.s.bagga


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## davinderdhanjal (Jun 14, 2011)

The history of Sikh spiritual leadership is a bit tainted. So it is understandable that many people may be confused about the tenets and authority of the leaders no matter where it comes from. It is due to lack of education and insincerity to Sikhi.

  If the leaders are below par they cannot expect masses to believe any of their recommendations or advice. Majority of Sikhs can see through them.

  You can take ‘guidance’ from our leaders over the last 27 years which is well documented. They have colluded with nefarious elements and attacked Harminder Sahib, blanked out any media that can present truth to the people, corrupted the police, are killing Amritdhari Sikhs, encouraging Deras, corrupting the books used to teach Sikhs, protecting the culprits of the 1984 Katylam, organising silly stunts that they can later correct to hoodwink the uninformed masses list is endless.

  Sikhs are not fools – the talent they have can see through all this and have the courage and patience to unfold blood stained lies by self sacrifices.

  This is all despite the help from SGPC, DSPGC and Akal Takhat not to mention state and India Governments. 

  For a society where the Gurus considered themselves lowest of the low, protected the Truth, fought against tyranny, sacrificed their lives for humanity, guided us along the right path for over 200 years and for these leaders to come along and ‘behave like gods’ is no short than the brahmanical quagmire that Sikh religion replaced.

  It is understandable for uneducated people to take sides when perfectly respectable people are excommunicated only because these people in ‘authority’ cannot understand the issues.

  Read the Publishers note to a Book ‘Panjab and Panjabi’ by GS Sidhu – it may explain the path followed by these leaders.


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2011)

Images for above


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