# Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 26, 2009)

*Admin note: This thread was created from posts located in another thread Dominance of Rituals in the Sikh Religion. The conversation began to look at reincarnation more than ritual. Thus this thread was created to accommodate the new focus of discussion. Thank you*

On my very First visit to Punjab/India after  a lapse of nearly 50 years..in November-December 2005..I went to Visit Goindwaal sahib as well as nearby Khadoor sahib, Sultan Pur Lodhi Gurdwaras  of the First Three Guru sahibaans in great detail. I had heard of this baoli and its 84 Japji sahib paaths to escape the 84 lakh Joons reincarnations theory.
I wanted to try it out and came well prepared. I too completed the entire 84 paaths/and 84 baths non stop...and it was a truly mind blowing wonderful experience. The fact that i know Japji by memory helped speed up things a bit faster..but the freezing cold winter temps and the wetness..and all is a one time experience well worth it.

I dont subscribe to the notion that merely doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from the reincarnation. Firstly I DONT beleive there are only 84 lakh joons.. more...or less...my understanding is this is just  a figure Guru Ji picked up to ILLUSTRATE GURMATT. So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.
GURMATT is that HUMAN BIRTH is a ONE OFF experience...the Creator affords us this one opportunity to do His HUKM and live the Life that will make it possible for US to REUNITE/MERGE with HIM. Period. Human life is  a valuable gift..and the ONE Chance to Break the Wall of haumaii..separating us from HIM...and rejoin HIM..forever and forever.
THIS WALL of Haumaii is to be broken by LIVING IN HIS HUKM..following the Directions given to us in the 1429 aangs of Guru Granth Sahib jis GURBANI..and THIS is the ONLY WAY FORWARD. GURBANI has got to be LIVED...ENJOYED...LOVED...Khavoh..Kharcho..Bhuncho..to be EFFECTIVE in changing our daily lives towards HIM.
That said...the Baoli in Goindwaal..and another even bigger one in a Village called dalla made by Guru hargobind Ji ( which I also visited and had a bath - although i avoided the "holy season" there which is Massiah - dark phase of the moon - childless women bathe there to get sons ...and besides bathing..also make "***** of atta"..and there is also a Locked Room there that contains the "soul" of MALARIA FEVER..supposedly caught and locked up to prevent the FEVER from afflicting people ) are HISTORICAL PLACES of our Guurs..and shoudl be visited with HISTORY in mind..NOT the various RITUALS.

BY the way IF..84 baths and 84 japji sahibs are a little too difficult to escape the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations..there is an even EASIER WAY to do that. IN  the Goindwaal/Khadoor sahib area...Itself there is another Historical Gurdawra called SANNH SAHIB, in the Basement wall of which there is a MEDIUM SIZED ROUND HOLE (sannh means hole)..and its said that.."ANYONE GOING THROUGH THAT HOLE..escapes the 84 lakh joons....and there is a long line of people queing up to do just that...go through..and escape JOONS !! Could anything be EASIER..NO WAY..its simplest way !!
BTW..I went through the hole too...just in case !! (insurance)..but be careful...the hole is just MEDIUM...really fat will get stuck (limbo !!)..lucky me..my belly wasnt that big..way back in 2005..i scraped through by the skin of my teeth...

Now to the story behind Sannh sahib.
_*Sannh                              Sahib*_​ The youngest son of    Guru Angad Dev   named Dasu, kicked    Guru Amar Dass  off his throne and asked him to leave Goindwal. Guru Amar Dass left Goindwal for Basarke and reaching there shut himself inside a house for quiet meditation. On the door he wrote," Whosoever opens the lock of this door, I will not own him as my follower." Baba Budha broke open the house from the back side, without touching the lock on the front door, fulfilled the command of the Guru in letter, if not in spirit. Thus he was able to see the Guru, who overwhelmed with his devotion, accompanied the Sikhs to Goindwal. The Gurdwara Sannh Sahib stands on that place. :happy:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

<<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>>

Gyani ji

can you please elaborate on that.

Guru ji in SGGS have stated about various joons in very elaborate way.

what were they talking about?


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## Singh_Amandeep (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji
                                         i agree with your point on "doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from 84 joons".
                                         But i cannot understand why dont you beleive in "84 lakh joons/reincarnations".

My point is Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us many times about the 84joons/reincarnations & there are many Sakhies which proove the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations.


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## Singh_Amandeep (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji
                                         i agree with your point on "doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from 84 joons".
                                         But i cannot understand why dont you beleive in "84 lakh joons/reincarnations".

My point is Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us many times about the 84joons/reincarnations & there are many Sakhies which proove the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

There are extremely lengthy essays I can write on why i beleive that the Gurbani references to Hindu Mythology, the Bhagats Prehlaad, Joons, and reincarnations et al..are only references. Plenty of good arguments available in Punjabi on Sikh Marg ???? ???? and other places.
The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY. in my book a person who goes on specualting about where he came "from"..what he was earlier..a crow..a cow..a worm..endlessly...while the TRAIN OF LIFE continues to run towards the STATION where he will ahve to GET OFF..and He doesnt bother to get his "ticket" ready to show the Ticket Inspector (Naam japp, kirt karo waand chhako Live the Gurmatt Life by using the TOOLS provided in the Toolbox of SGGS) will be TOLD OFF BY THE TICKET INSPECTOR and get booted off unceremoniously...no one is going to listen to his pleas that he was busy ..thinking..explainaig the joons..the reincarnatiosn.etc etc.
IN MY BOOK..the Man..Kartoot Passu ki manush Jaat is a statement about JOONS in HUMAN LIFE FORM. No need to go look for a DOG..the ETERNAL BARKING DOG of LOBH is right inside you all the time...Bhaunkeh din raat..the Elephant of KAAM is ever ready and its in Human Body of yours..the GREED, the KRODH, the ANGER, the Lllach..all are ANIMAL JOONS LIVING INSIDE the HUMAN..and GURBANI GIVES US the "complete instructions" on HOW to GET RID of these Passus kartoots...but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS..and all the JOONS are there very visible.IF a human lets these JOONS control his life..then he has failed as a human..he is  Manmukh and not Gurmukh ..If  ahuman being is on sex all the time and keeps producing children..whats so different from a PIG ?? He is  apig in human form. He is living a pig joon. GURBANI CANNOT HELP a genuine PIG..it cannot read, Gurbani, it cannot hear gurbani, understand gurbani or use Gurbani to Change hsi PIGGY LIFE..BUT  a hUMAN BEING living under the control of PIGGY JOON FORCES..can do all these things. Kabir says..as a "buffalo" you will have Horns, your tongue will be blurred from having to chew the curds..your eyes will eb blearya nd your abck broken form hard work all day and night while your master whacks you harder and harder..do you think YOU can do Naam japp in that form ?? Is this a "proof" about buffalo joon or is Kabir Jis attempt to TEACH a human with BUFFALO BRAINS..to pull up his bootstraps and get cracking.. !! To me it looks like Kabir ji is TALKING to HUMANS having "buffalo brains"...otherwise why bother wriiting it down for HUMANS ??

I will try and get an essay with proper quotes from Gurbani written in English for the readers of spn on this....

2. SAKHIS..my take on them is they are manufactured after the fact..in hindsight..i only rely on GURBANI for my facts. IF a sakhi FAILS the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI..then no dice. Most sakhis are told by derawallahs and based on a very very superficial READING of Gurbani Shabads..even a slight going into depth of the shaabad reveals the fakeness.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

There are extremely lengthy essays I can write on why i beleive that the Gurbani references to Hindu Mythology, the Bhagats Prehlaad, Joons, and reincarnations et al..are only references. Plenty of good arguments available in Punjabi on Sikh Marg ???? ???? and other places.
The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY. in my book a person who goes on specualting about where he came "from"..what he was earlier..a crow..a cow..a worm..endlessly...while the TRAIN OF LIFE continues to run towards the STATION where he will ahve to GET OFF..and He doesnt bother to get his "ticket" ready to show the Ticket Inspector (Naam japp, kirt karo waand chhako Live the Gurmatt Life by using the TOOLS provided in the Toolbox of SGGS) will be TOLD OFF BY THE TICKET INSPECTOR and get booted off unceremoniously...no one is going to listen to his pleas that he was busy ..thinking..explainaig the joons..the reincarnatiosn.etc etc.
IN MY BOOK..the Man..Kartoot Passu ki manush Jaat is a statement about JOONS in HUMAN LIFE FORM. No need to go look for a DOG..the ETERNAL BARKING DOG of LOBH is right inside you all the time...Bhaunkeh din raat..the Elephant of KAAM is ever ready and its in Human Body of yours..the GREED, the KRODH, the ANGER, the Lllach..all are ANIMAL JOONS LIVING INSIDE the HUMAN..and GURBANI GIVES US the "complete instructions" on HOW to GET RID of these Passus kartoots...but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS..and all the JOONS are there very visible.IF a human lets these JOONS control his life..then he has failed as a human..he is  Manmukh and not Gurmukh ..If  ahuman being is on sex all the time and keeps producing children..whats so different from a PIG ?? He is  apig in human form. He is living a pig joon. GURBANI CANNOT HELP a genuine PIG..it cannot read, Gurbani, it cannot hear gurbani, understand gurbani or use Gurbani to Change hsi PIGGY LIFE..BUT  a hUMAN BEING living under the control of PIGGY JOON FORCES..can do all these things. Kabir says..as a "buffalo" you will have Horns, your tongue will be blurred from having to chew the curds..your eyes will eb blearya nd your abck broken form hard work all day and night while your master whacks you harder and harder..do you think YOU can do Naam japp in that form ?? Is this a "proof" about buffalo joon or is Kabir Jis attempt to TEACH a human with BUFFALO BRAINS..to pull up his bootstraps and get cracking.. !! To me it looks like Kabir ji is TALKING to HUMANS having "buffalo brains"...otherwise why bother wriiting it down for HUMANS ??

I will try and get an essay with proper quotes from Gurbani written in English for the readers of spn on this....

2. SAKHIS..my take on them is they are manufactured after the fact..in hindsight..i only rely on GURBANI for my facts. IF a sakhi FAILS the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI..then no dice. Most sakhis are told by derawallahs and based on a very very superficial READING of Gurbani Shabads..even a slight going into depth of the shaabad reveals the fakeness.


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## Singh_Amandeep (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji,
                               You write   " but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS. " 

But i think there are many shabads.
I am writing One of them:-

Unt Kaall Jo Lakshmi simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, sarap joon val val auotrey|
Unt Kaall Jo Istri simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, vesva joon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Munder simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,prait jon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Ladkey simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,sookar jon val val auotrey |

waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh|


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## Singh_Amandeep (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji,
                               You write   " but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS. " 

But i think there are many shabads.
I am writing One of them:-

Unt Kaall Jo Lakshmi simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, sarap joon val val auotrey|
Unt Kaall Jo Istri simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, vesva joon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Munder simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,prait jon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Ladkey simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,sookar jon val val auotrey |

waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh|


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Here is the Lekh in Punjabi from Sikh marg website. My rather inadequate English translation is attached - please bear with the inadequacies but the central idea is there.
ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ  ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ?"
*ਉੱਤਰ:* ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ  ਠੀਕ ਅਰਥ ਭਾਵ ਸਮਝਣ ਲਈ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇੱਕ ਦੋ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਲੈਣਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ  ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣ ਲਈ ਜਿਹੜੀਆਂ ਕੁੱਝ ਬੁਨਿਆਦੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਰੱਖਣ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਰੂਰਤ ਹੈ,  ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇੱਕ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ, ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਜਾਂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਨੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰਦਿਆਂ  ਹੋਇਆਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਕਰਵਾਈ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਉਹ ਕਿਸ ਧਰਮ  ਨਾਲ ਸਬੰਧ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਸਨ, ਜਾਣਨਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ। ਚੂੰਕਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਰੱਖ  ਕੇ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਜਾਚ ਅਸਾਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਸਮਝਾਈ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ ਸੀ। ਮਿਸਾਲ ਦੇ ਤੌਰ `ਤੇ ਜਿਵੇਂ  ਬਾਬਾ ਫਰੀਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਪਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸਲਾਮਿਕ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਵਲੀ ਅਤੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਵਰਣਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ;  ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਮਝਾ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ ਉਹ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਸਨ। ਇਹੀ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਆਪ ਜੀ  ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਧਰਮਰਾਜ, ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰ ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਈ ਹੋਈ। ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਸਪਸ਼ਟ  ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਫਰੀਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੇਵਲ ਇੱਕ ਉਦਾਹਰਣ ਹੀ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ:-  ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕੂਕੇਦਿਆ ਚਾਂਗੇਦਿਆ ਮਤੀ  ਦੇਦਿਆ ਨਿਤ ॥ ਜੋ ਸੈਤਾਨਿ ਵੰਞਾਇਆ ਸੇ ਕਿਤ ਫੇਰਹਿ ਚਿਤ ॥੧੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1378}
ਸ਼ਲੋਕ ਵਿੱਚ ਫਰੀਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਇਸਲਾਮੀ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਬਦੀ ਦਾ  ਪ੍ਰੇਰਕ ਆਖ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਦੇ ਪੈਰੋਕਾਰ ਜਾਂ ਪੈਰੋਕਾਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ  ਗੱਲ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਇਹ ਸਮਝਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਕਿ,  "ਕੂੜ ਨਿਖੁਟੇ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਓੜਕਿ ਸਚਿ  ਰਹੀ"॥ ਤਾਂ ਅਜ਼ਰਾਇਲ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਦੇ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ  ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਵਹੀ ਕੱਢ ਕੇ ਬੈਠੇ ਹੋਣ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ:-  "ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਸਿਖ ਸਹੀ  ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਰਬੁ ਮੰਗੇਸੀਆ ਬੈਠਾ ਕਢਿ ਵਹੀ ॥ ਤਲਬਾ ਪਉਸਨਿ ਆਕੀਆ ਬਾਕੀ ਜਿਨਾ ਰਹੀ ॥ ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ  ਹੋਸੀ ਆਇ ਤਈ" ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 953}
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਜਦ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਜਿਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਜਾਚ ਸਮਝਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਸ  ਦਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਧਰਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਸਮੇਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਧਰਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਪੁਰਾਣਕ ਸਾਖੀਆਂ ਦਾ  ਹਵਾਲਾ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਜਿਵੇਂ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਦਰਸਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਕਿ, "ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥  ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥" ਤਾਂ ਫ਼ਰਮਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ:-
 ਸਹੰਸਰ ਦਾਨ ਦੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੋਆਇਆ ॥ ਪਰਸ ਰਾਮੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਅਜੈ ਸੁ  ਰੋਵੈ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਐਸੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ  ਗਇਆ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਲੰਕ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਆਦੀ ਡਉਰੂ ਵਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥ ਜਿਨ  ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਜਨਮੇਜਾ ਖੁਇ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਏਕੀ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਾਪੀ ਭਇਆ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 953-954}
 ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਜੋਗੀਆਂ, ਸਰੇਵੜਿਆਂ, ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀਆਂ ਆਦਿ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਸਮੇਂ  ਇਹੀ ਢੰਗ ਅਪਣਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਚੂੰਕਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੋਈ  ਹਿੰਦੂ ਧਰਮ ਨਾਲ, ਕੋਈ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਨਾਲ, ਕੋਈ ਜੋਗ ਮਤ ਆਦਿ ਨਾਲ ਸਬੰਧ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸਿੱਖ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਇਸ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਣੇ ਸਨ।) ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਵੀ  ਨੋਟ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ, ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਭਾਂਵੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਇੱਕ ਫ਼ਿਰਕੇ ਦੇ ਧਾਰਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ, ਪਰ ਗੱਲ  ਬਾਤ ਦੌਰਾਨ ਜੋ ਸੱਚ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਕਰਵਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਮੁੱਚੀ ਮਨੁੱਖਤਾ ਲਈ ਹੈ। (ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾਪੁਰਖ  ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ।)
 "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ  ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ" ॥ ਵਾਲਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਗਤ  ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਣ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਪੂਰਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਹੈ: -
ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ  ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ  ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ  ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ  ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ  526}
ਭਗਤ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਗੱਲ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਹਾਉ ਵਾਲੀ ਪੰਗਤੀ  `ਚ ਹੈ ਕਿ, "ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ  ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ" ॥ ਇਹ ਸੁਨੇਹਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ  ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹ ਪੁਰਾਣਾਂ ਸ਼ਾਸ਼ਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਸਨ। ਜੂਨਾਂ  ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਣ ਬਾਰੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਭਾਈਚਾਰੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੋ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਸੀ, ਭਗਤ ਜੀ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਹਵਾਲਾ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ  ਸਮਝਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ, "ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਧਨ, ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ, ਪੁੱਤਰ , ਤੇ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਆਦਿ ਦੇ  ਧੰਧਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਇਤਨਾ ਖਚਿਤ ਨਾਹ ਰਹੋ ਕਿ ਮਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਭੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਟਿਕੀ ਰਹੇ।  ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ-ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਜ਼ਿੰਮੇਵਾਰੀਆਂ ਇਸ ਤਰੀਕੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਿਭਾਓ ਕਿ ਕਿਰਤ-ਕਾਰ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਭੀ  "ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ"  ; ਤਾਂਕਿ ਅੰਤ ਵੇਲੇ ਵੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧਨ , ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ,  ਪੁੱਤਰ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕਣ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜੀ ਰਹੇ । ਸੋ, ਭਗਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ  ਜੀ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਜਨਤਾ ਵਿਚ ਚੱਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਖ਼ਿਆਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਸਹੀ  ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਰਸਤਾ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ, ਨਾ ਕਿ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਣ ਬਾਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਤ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ  ਹਨ।" (ਹੋਰ ਵਿਸਥਾਤ ਸਹਿਤ ਦੇਖੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਦਰਪਣ: ਪ੍ਰੋ: ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ)
ਸੋ, ਸੰਖੇਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹੀ ਆਖਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਬਾਰੇ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ  ਵਿੱਚ ਵਰਣਨ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਮਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ  ਹੋਰ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਪੁਰਾਣਕ ਹਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ  ਖ਼ਿਆਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਵਰਣਨ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਹੋਇਆਂ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ ਰਸਤਾ ਦਰਸਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ।
*ਨੋਟ:* ਕਈ ਸੱਜਣ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋ ਭਾਵ, ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਹੋਣ  `ਤੇ, ਇਸੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਸ਼ੂਪੁਣੇ ਦੇ ਤਲ ਉੱਤੇ ਜਿਊਂਣ ਤੋਂ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ੱਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ  ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਹੁਤ ਥਾਂਈ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਵਰਣਨ ਹੈ, ਪਰੰਤੂ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ  ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਵਾਲਾ ਭਾਵ ਢੁਕਵਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ; ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਸੱਚ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ  ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਲੈਂਦੇ।
The writers of Gurbani have used examples from their desired audience. IF its Sheikh farid Ji for example, you will NOT find any references to Dharam raaj,Dasam Duar etc etc simply because farid Ji is brought up in an Islamic environment and his intended audience is the Muslims. Thus you find references to Shaitan as the forebearer of EVIL in his bani..but shaitan is not mentioned by the Bhagts simply becasue they are Hindu based.
Thus when Guur nanak ji addresses His Muslim audience..he talks about the Archangel farishtas and abraham adam etc..and when Guru nanak Ji is in Hardwaar adressign Hindus..He uses shansar, Ajay Parasram...RamChander ,seeta and all those examples from HINDU Mythology/religious traditions.
Same technique used in "conversations" with the Yogis..the Naaths..the Sidhs..and everyone else..BUT and now here is the Main Thrust of GURBANI. Since Guru nanak Ji came on Earth to teach GURMATT..( and NOT islam or sidhs, or naaths, or Hinduism vedas etc )..the Rahao Tuks that AFFIRM the Teachings of Gurmatt are all clear.
In the Lachhmee shabad given by Amandeep singh ji..the RAHAO Tuk by Bhagat ji..reiterates so strongly...ARE BAII GOBIND NAAM MATT BEESREH..OH Brother DONT FORGET GOBIND NAAM !!
Meaning of shabad comes so clear...Dont be so ENGROSSED in houses, wealth, wife, family..etc etc that you become so totally ENGROSSED that even on the DEATH BED..all you can ever think about is..oh my money..oh my son..my wife..my house..whats going to happen after i am dead..who will take care of my bank accounts..who will stay in my house..who will remarry my wife ?? etc etc and DIE in THAT STATE OF MIND ??
People always say..SO whats the BOTTOM LINE !! everything that goes on..can be accepted..BUT the Most Important thing is the BOTTOM LINE !! One can read a thousand page Legal document..it amounts to NOTHING..unless one SIGNS on the Bottom Line...and Once the signature is there..NO amount of saying..i never read it all..oh i  missed that para..oh i didnt understand that part..wont hold any water !! SAME here. The BOTTOM LINE in all the 1429 pages of SGGS is NAAM..GURMATT REHNNI..and THIS human LIFE !! As they say..a Thousand Metre long rope..and KNOT at the END is all that matters..if the KNOT becomes UNDONE..the entire rope UNRAVELS..
Bhagat tarlochan Ji is giving an EXAMPLE from prevailing Hindu thought/myth to ILLUSTRATE and this is no means an admission by Bhgat ji that its all true.and a lover of wealth will become a snake..at the Rate Snakes are disappearing from this earth ( many snakes are on PROTECTED LISTS to protect them from EXTINCTION)..and the rate at which GREEDY MEN are INCREASING...the "shabad" will have to be revised..??? and we all KNOW that GURBANI is ETERNAL TRUTH !! ( btw although the generic word used is "snake"..in actual fact what they show is the Highly POISNOUS COBRA SNAKE as always coiled around "wealth"..simply because the Cobra is most widely known in HINDU INDIA...and Cobras are soon set to be extinct..so what will the aant kaal lachmme simrehs become ?? anacondas or rattlesnakes ??
My profound apologies to all non Punajbi reading posters. The brief summary is a stop gap measure - a properly written essay with english refrences to all tuks quoted is being prepared.


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## dalbirk (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still )   . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .


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## dalbirk (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> dalbirk ji
> 
> Thank you because this is a wonderful insight into the mind of our Guru. Do you think what happened is that over time the first message was forgotten and people got carried away with the practice for its own sake. Took the observance literally and forgot the point that was originally intended.



Narayanjot Ji ,
           The politics of India is such that if there are no differences , then differences are created . In India in each of your Government document , caste is still mentioned , similarly the reservations, benifits based on castes are keeping this alive . Though reservations have helped rest of India in raising status of so called low castes , it has damaged the ( general ) social fabric of Punjab wherein caste based differences were not that stark say about 40-50 years ago . Add to it the hidden motive of Brahmins & other high castes in keeping castism alive , the increasing influence Hindu media & Brahminical rituals in Sikhism as a whole all these factors have contributed in keeping castism alive & kicking in Punjab ( & Sikhs ) & it is growing by the day .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Guru Piayrio Jios,

GURBANI is agaadh Bodh...meaning DIVINEWISDOM..and its full and complete understanding can only come with Guru jis Kirpa and Gur Parsaad.
Its OUR own INADEQUACIES and LIMITATIONS that STOP us from reaching a fuller and complete understanding of Guru jis divine Message.
Just have alook at the followign panktees and concepts explained and the TECHNIQUE USED to ILLUSTRATE.

1. Hindu Religious Thoughts and Vedas religious texts have stated that there are ONLY FOUR KHANNEES..meaning four methods of propogation of LIFE.
These four khannees are..Andej - EGgs - birds snakes crocodiles etc, JERAJ..from the WOMB..humans, cows, tigers etc, SETAJ - from the sweat - bacteria etc..and UTBHUJ - from mixture of water and earth..worms bugs etc. When Guru Ji talks to a largely HINDU auduence brought up on this line of thought..He says..
Japji sahib Page 6 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ  ਚਾਰੇ..Gaveh Jodh mahabal soora..gaveh khanne chareh...ALL SING His Praises..warriors, lords, fighters, ALL those born of the FOUR KHANNEES !!
BUT when Guru Ji wants to give us HIS DIVINE MESSAGE..He declares..ਕੇਤੀਆ ਖਾਣੀ ਕੇਤੀਆ ਬਾਣੀ ਕੇਤੇ ਪਾਤ  ਨਰਿੰਦ॥COUNTLESS KHANNEES..COUNTLESS Languages..voices..
Page 276: ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਅਰੁ ਖੰਡ॥  COUNTLESS Khanees and Universes !!
What happened to the LIMITED "FOUR KHANNEES" earlier ?? its obvious that Guru ji was just using that as an example that audience was familair with...and ITS NOT the INFALLIBLE TRUTH according to Guru ji.

2.Another example. ਪਾਤਾਲਾ  ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ॥ ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇੱਕ ਵਾਤ॥ In the Vedas it is stated that there are LAKHS of Pataals and Lakhs of akash..regions and nether regions...the VEDAS are one united Voice on this. The japji sahib Pauree 22 onwards..
Then Guur Ji tackles the Biblical religious Thoughts and Traditions..ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ  ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ॥ The Biblical books say there are 18000 regiosn and Nether regions..and they ALL spring forth from the One Creator !!
So Here we have TWO different View points..one Hindu, the other Western..and BOTH DIFFER !!
BUT WHAT THEN IS GURMATT ?? the GURUS VIEWPOINT ?? Here it is..in crystal clear words that leave no room for any doubt.. ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ  ਵਿਣਾਸੁ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ॥ IF His Creation could be COUNTED...?? NO JIOS..the FIGURES will FINISH and those attempting to count..will be themsleves...destroyed..before even rudimentary counting can begin...NANAK DECLARES..*

HE is the CREATOR..ONLY HE KNOWS his CREATION. PERIOD.

SO IF any one of us were to STOP at the Four Khannees..the Lakh Pataals...or the 18000 Regions worlds universes...would we be doing JUSTICE to the DIVINE MESSAGE that gurbani puts forward. Is that the "Gurmatt" view simply becasue we ourselves stopped half way and never reached the BOTTOM LINE CONCLUSIONS of GURU JI. ??? whose fault is that ??

NEXT the JOONS FIGURES. the wise ones would alreday know where we are heading...its a question of the CREATOR and HIS CREATION..so what "value" have LIMITED FIGURES ?? RIGHT JIOS..LIMITED FIGURES HAVE NO VALUE...in the Creators Creation..its all LIMITLESS...ENDLESS...

Bhai kahn Singh nabha: Vedas say that...*ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮਤ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਚੀਨ ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ: ਨੌ ਲੱਖ ਜਲਵਾਸੀ, ਦਸ ਲੱਖ ਪੌਣ  ਵਿੱਚ ਉਡਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪੰਛੀ, ਬੀਸ ਲੱਖ ਇਸਥਿਤ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਬਿਰਛ ਆਦਿ, ਗਿਆਰਾਂ ਲੱਖ ਪੇਟ ਬਲ ਚਲਣ ਵਾਲੇ  ਸਰਪ ਕ੍ਰਿਮਿ ਆਦਿ, ਤੀਸ ਲੱਖ ਚੌਪਾਏ ਅਤੇ ਚਾਰ ਲੱਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤਿ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ ਹਨ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ  ਬਾਂਦਰ ਬਨਮਾਨੁਖ ਆਦਿ ਸਭ ਸ਼ਾਮਿਲ ਹਨ। ... 9 Lakh are in the Oceans, 10 lakhs are in the SKIES, 20 Lkahs are trees, bushes, rocks etc, 11lakhs are snakes worms etc, 30 lakhs are four legged animals, 4 lakhs are Humanoids, chimps, gorillas monkeys etc.
According to the JAIN TEXTS:
ਜੈਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ ਇਉਂ ਮੰਨੀ ਹੈ: 7 ਲੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਿਵੀ  ਵਿਚ, 7 ਲੱਖ ਜਲ ਵਿਚ, 7 ਲੱਖ ਪੌਣ ਵਿਚ, 7 ਲੱਖ ਅਗਨਿ ਵਿਚ, 10 ਲੱਖ ਕੰਦ (ਗਾਜਰ ਮੂਲੀ ਆਦਿ)  ਵਿਚ, 14 ਲੱਖ ਝਾੜੀ ਬਿਰਛ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ, 2 ਲੱਖ ਦੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਜੋ ਤੁਚਾ ਅਤੇ ਮੂੰਹ  ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ, 2 ਲੱਖ ਤਿੰਨ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ, ਅਰਥਾਤ ਜੋ ਤੁਚਾ ਮੁਖ ਅਤੇ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਰਖਦੇ ਹਨ, 2 ਲੱਖ  ਚਾਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ, ਅਰਥਾਤ ਜੋ ਤੁਚਾ, ਮੁਖ, ਨੱਕ ਅਤੇ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਰਖਦੇ ਹਨ, 4 ਲੱਖ ਦੇਵਤਾ, ਜੋ  ਸੁਰਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, 4 ਲੱਖ ਨਰਕ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ, 14 ਲੱਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤਿ, ਜੋ ਇੱਕ ਟੰਗੀਏ ਅਤੇ  ਦੁਟੰਗੇ ਹਨ, 4 ਲੱਖ ਚੌਪਾਏ ਪਸ਼ੂ।”
7 Lkahs on earth, 7 Lkahs in water, 7 lakhs in FIRE, 10 lakh as root veges carrots radishes etc, 14 lakh trees, bushes etc, 2 lakhs with two sensory organs - mouth and ****, 2 lakhs with three organs mouth, **** and eyes, 2 lakhs with 4 sensory organs - mouth, ****, eyes and nose,4 lakh DEVTAS in HEAVEN, 4 lakh In HELL shaitans, bhoots prets ghosts etc, 14 lakh humanoids - 1 legged and 2 legged..and 4 lakh four legged animals.
4. Some Granths mention an even distribution..42 lakhs in WATER and 42 lakhs on EARTH. (Sky is not mentioned)
BHAGAT NAMDEV JIS shabad is always quoted to PROVE THIS !! The shabad is..
Page:485  ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕੁੰਭ ਭਰਾਈਲੇ ਊਦਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ  ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਉ॥ ਬਇਆਲੀਸ ਲਖ ਜੀ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਤੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ॥ IF I were to bring so called pure water from the OCEAN/RIVER to bathe the moortee....the QUESTION is this...already 42 lakhs of JOONS live in the water...and the CREATOR is in Each one of those creatures....so ISNT IT RIGHT THAT the CREATOR is ALREADY BATHING..long beofre i can bring the water out ?? AND isnt it also TRUE that sicne the 42 lakhs are living in the water..its NO LONGER "PURE"..its polluted with the 42 lakhs !! Environmentalists and scientists tell us that the so called HOLY GANGA JAL is highly polluted with billions of disease bearing bacteria, viruses and even RAW SEWAGE. BHAGAT NAMDEV JI apprised us all of this TRUTH 700 years ago...BUT we FAIL to see his DIVINE MESSAGE..because we are SUNK in the Ginnttee minntee of 42 lakh joons and all...we "see" the SUPERFICIAL MASK..and fail to see the FACE of TRUTH behind the mask !!
Bhagat ji couldnt care two hoots whether there were 42 lakhs or 33 kror joons..his MESSAGE is about the so called PURITY of the water..and the RITUAL of bathing the statues of Mandirs to PURIFY THEM. Bhagt ji is QUESTIONIG THAT FALSE BELIEF.

6. On page 1156  Guru Ji is giving his views on the BEANTATA..UNLIMITEDNESS of the CREATOR..ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਧ੍ਰਮਸਾਲ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ  ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਜਣ ਲਾਏ॥ 1॥ ਐਸੋ ਧਣੀ ਗੁਵਿੰਦੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ॥ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ  ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ॥ 1॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸੇਵਕਾਇ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਿਹਜਾਇ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਜਨਾ  ਤੇਰੈ ਅੰਗਿ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਭਗਤ ਬਸਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ॥ 2॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਠਾਢੇ ਹੈ  ਦੁਆਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਮਾਹਿ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ॥ 3॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਰੀਅਤ  ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਨਾਦ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਖਾਰੇ ਚਲਿਤ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਦੇਵੈ ਆਧਾਰ॥  4॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਮਝਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਤ ਨਾਮ ਚਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਪੂਜਾ॥  ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ॥ 5॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੰਸ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਰਤ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਸ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਓਪਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਮਾਹਿ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਣੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ॥ 6॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਥਹਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਧਰਤ ਧਿਆਨੁ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਤਪ ਹੀ ਕਰਤੇ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮੁਨੀਸਰ ਮ+ਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤੇ॥  7॥ ਅਵਿਗਤ ਨਾਥੁ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ॥ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ॥ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਵਾਸਾ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ  ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਓ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ॥ 8॥ (ਪੰਨਾ 1156)
GURU JI is certainly NOT LIMITING the CREATOR in nay bandhans..His CREATION is BOUNDLESS...even in SUKHMANI SAHIB, the Word used is KOT..and adding the adjective Kaee in front of KOT (KRORS) makes the KRORS UNCOUNTABLE...
The CREATOR has created ( and also destroyed)..countless shivs, Brahms. Vsihnus, Universes, galaxies, life forms, joons, Bhagts, lachmis, devtas..
IN Conclusion i would like t point out that all such mentions of PURANIC myths, legends, figures of worlds and joons, reincarnations, avatrs, brahmas, vushnus, etc etc and also thsoie examples from the Biblical books kitabs etc are ALL ILLUSTRATIONS.ਸੋ, ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਈ ਥਾਈਂ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ  ਦਾ ਵਰਣਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਪਰੰਤੂ ਇਸ ਵਰਣਨ ਤੋਂ ਇਹ ਹਰਗ਼ਿਜ਼ ਭਾਵ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਜੂਨੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਨਾਲ ਆਪਣੀ ਸਹਿਮਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ। ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਨੇ ਅਕਾਲ  ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਰੇ ਇਹ ਰਾਏ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਇਤਨੀ ਕੁ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਮਿਣਤੀ  ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ। GURU JI DOES NOT LIMIT the CREATOR in any way whatsoever. He is TRULY bEYOND everything we can say...
I am heavily indebted to SIKH MARG.COM for spreading tatt gurmatt and the correct interpretations of Gurbani. Please excuse all errors and omissions as mine. The SGGS pages are provided - please go to the relvant Sikhitothe max.com site or other Gurbani sites for  the English Translations.Time constraints prevent me.and i can only provide brief summary of shabads as per my own understanding.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



dalbirk said:


> IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still )   . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .



Dalbir Singh ji, Gurfateh ji.

BEAUTIFULLY PUT. THANK YOU.
Completely in line with GURMATT.:happy:


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## kaur-1 (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

re: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109958
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109975

Those who have been doing vichaar (in various degree or spiritual level) do understand that Gurbani does not limit joons to a finite number.

BUT this does not mean that Gurbani rejects reincarnation. If you are saying that sikhmarg is promoting this view than I say that sikhmarg is wrong.

I recommed sikhmarg writer to leave his householders life and run off to some hills away from the temptations of maya moh and start doing samadhi prompto as for him there is only one human life. 

Human life, gurbani has made very clear is very difficult to get. Get from where??


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

if human life was the only "path" to God, why did God even bother to create other animals, flora, fauna?


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



dalbirk said:


> IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still )   . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .



Dalbirk ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting perspective, Thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add my 2 cent worth regarding 84 lakh joons and reincarnation. Our Gurus talked in the language of the people who believed in different things depending on their beliefs, hence first and foremost they acknowledged their practices and rituals. Aarti, fasting, Hajj, Pilgrimages, 84 joons and reincarnation are a few examples.

After having acknowledged what the people practiced in their beliefs, our Gurus showed them what these things really mean and how they should be practiced. SGGS is full of these examples.

Now, coming back to 84 Lakh joons and reincarnation, after having acknowledged the said beliefs, our Gurus also mentioned in every Shabad regarding these 2 beliefs,that once a person who follows the Sikhi path, then he/she is liberated from these beliefs. In other words, studying and understanding Gurbani develops a mindset of pragmatism which helps us get rid of these kinds of beliefs which are meaningless.

We should remind ourselves as often as possible that beliefs can change anytime because all beliefs are based on subjective truths where as Sikhi is based on the objective truth. Mool Manter and the first pauri of Jap ji show us that. That is why I do not call Sikhi marg a belief system but a way of life or a lifestyle which shows that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one.


Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



kaur-1 said:


> re: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109958
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109975
> 
> Those who have been doing vichaar (in various degree or spiritual level) do understand that Gurbani does not limit joons to a finite number.
> ...



BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB.."ran" all the way UP the Himalayas to TEACH the "samadhi entangled" sadhus/naaths.sidhs/Yogis that they are WRONG..and they should COME BACK DOWN..marry and have kids..and live like HOUSEHOLDERS.
YES we do have only...Gobind milan ee EH(u) teri barreah...and Gurmatt says a HOUSEHOLDERS LIFE is the BEST. Thats why ALL our Gurus married and lived a householders life.
RUNNING AWAY is the Cowards way out...a GURSIKH lives in the MAYA..and FIGHTS temptations...a LOTUS in the muddy POND.:happy:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Human as Sikdaree: Support for the Concept of Reincarnation?*

Gyani ji

i think you missed the meaning of the remark completely

it was a sarcastic advice.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Huck_Finn said:


> if human life was the only "path" to God, why did God even bother to create other animals, flora, fauna?



Huck ji,
I CANNOT answer that..per se..
BUT
Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.
And secondly Gurbani also states that EVEN the DEMI-GODS..need and SEEK a HUMAN BODY....reason being that only in HUMAN FORM can MUKTEE be realised- Merger with the Creator.

Can you imagine a EARTH with ONLY HUMANS..and NOTHING ELSE !! what "food"..what clothes..what development..what evolution ?? NO vege to eat..no trees for wood..no animals to hunt.. wouldnt humans be cannibals of necessity ?? would then humans be "farming" lesser humans for food ??GOSH..what a thought


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

<Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.>>
gyani ji

i never came across this

can you please share the reference?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

and my post previous to this was in reference to Kaur -1 ji's post


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Huck_Finn said:


> <Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.>>
> gyani ji
> 
> i never came across this
> ...



Huck Finn Ji,
Page 368 SGGS
“ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ॥” ਮ: 5 ਪੰਨਾ 374 Panharee measn servants..those who carry water for you..
sikdaree is lorship/sardaree.
The HUMAN is SIKDAAR..meaning up and above all other life forms.Human Life is special..foremost...peak of creation. This earth is for the human..to "rule over".Others serve YOU.
Imho such a concept is also present in the Bible...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

At other places Guru ji declares..EVEN the Devtas, angels, demi-gods...SEEK and NEED the Human Body in order to escape this cycle of birth and death and merge with the Creator. This means the devtas etc are also lower in status to a GURMUKH.
ES dehi ko simreh DEV..."dehi" is human body !!


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Gyani ji

One tuk can often be miscontrued when read out of reference and background.

Here is the complete shabd:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ॥ 
आसा महला ५ पंचपदे ॥ 
Āsā mėhlā 5 pancẖpaḏe. 
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Panch-Padas: 


ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤੇਰੀ ਨੀਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ॥ 
प्रथमे तेरी नीकी जाति ॥ 
Parathme ṯerī nīkī jāṯ. 
First, your social status is high. 

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਨੀਐ ਪਾਂਤਿ ॥ 
दुतीआ तेरी मनीऐ पांति ॥ 
Ḏuṯī▫ā ṯerī manī▫ai pāŉṯ. 
Second, you are honored in society. 

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਥਾਨੁ ॥ 
त्रितीआ तेरा सुंदर थानु ॥ 
Ŧariṯī▫ā ṯerā sunḏar thān. 
Third, your home is beautiful. 

ਬਿਗੜ ਰੂਪੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ 
बिगड़ रूपु मन महि अभिमानु ॥१॥ 
Bigaṛ rūp man mėh abẖimān. ||1|| 
But you are so ugly, with self-conceit in your mind. ||1|| 

ਸੋਹਨੀ ਸਰੂਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣਿ ਬਿਚਖਨਿ ॥ 
सोहनी सरूपि सुजाणि बिचखनि ॥ 
Sohnī sarūp sujāṇ bicẖkẖan. 
O beautiful, attractive, wise and clever woman: 

ਅਤਿ ਗਰਬੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਫਾਕੀ ਤੂੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
अति गरबै मोहि फाकी तूं ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Aṯ garbai mohi fākī ṯūŉ. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
you have been trapped by your pride and attachment. ||1||Pause|| 

ਅਤਿ ਸੂਚੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਾਕਸਾਲ ॥ 
अति सूची तेरी पाकसाल ॥ 
Aṯ sūcẖī ṯerī pāksāl. 
Your kitchen is so clean. 

ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਾਲ ॥ 
करि इसनानु पूजा तिलकु लाल ॥ 
Kar isnān pūjā ṯilak lāl. 
You take your bath, and worship, and apply the crimson mark upon your forehead; 

ਗਲੀ ਗਰਬਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੋਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨ ॥ 
गली गरबहि मुखि गोवहि गिआन ॥ 
Galī garbėh mukẖ govėh gi▫ān. 
with your mouth you speak wisdom, but you are destroyed by pride. 

ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਖੋਈ ਲੋਭਿ ਸੁਆਨ ॥੨॥ 
सभ बिधि खोई लोभि सुआन ॥२॥ 
Sabẖ biḏẖ kẖo▫ī lobẖ su▫ān. ||2|| 
The dog of greed has ruined you in every way. ||2|| 

ਕਾਪਰ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਭੋਗਹਿ ਭੋਗ ॥ 
कापर पहिरहि भोगहि भोग ॥ 
Kāpar pahirahi bẖogėh bẖog. 
You wear your robes and enjoy pleasures; 

ਆਚਾਰ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਲੋਗ ॥ 
आचार करहि सोभा महि लोग ॥ 
Ācẖār karahi sobẖā mėh log. 
you practice good conduct to impress people; 

ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨ ਸੁਗੰਧ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ 
चोआ चंदन सुगंध बिसथार ॥ 
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan suganḏẖ bisthār. 
you apply scented oils of sandalwood and musk, 

ਸੰਗੀ ਖੋਟਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥੩॥ 
संगी खोटा क्रोधु चंडाल ॥३॥ 
Sangī kẖotā kroḏẖ cẖandāl. ||3|| 
but your constant companion is the demon of anger. ||3|| 

ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ 
अवर जोनि तेरी पनिहारी ॥ 
Avar jon ṯerī panihārī. 
Other people may be your water-carriers; 

ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ 
इसु धरती महि तेरी सिकदारी ॥ 
Is ḏẖarṯī mėh ṯerī sikḏārī. 
in this world, you may be a ruler. 

ਸੁਇਨਾ ਰੂਪਾ ਤੁਝ ਪਹਿ ਦਾਮ ॥ 
सुइना रूपा तुझ पहि दाम ॥ 
Su▫inā rūpā ṯujẖ pėh ḏām. 
Gold, silver and wealth may be yours, 

ਸੀਲੁ ਬਿਗਾਰਿਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਾਮ ॥੪॥ 
सीलु बिगारिओ तेरा काम ॥४॥ 
Sīl bigāri▫o ṯerā kām. ||4|| 
but the goodness of your conduct has been destroyed by sexual promiscuity. ||4|| 

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਮਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥ 
जा कउ द्रिसटि मइआ हरि राइ ॥ 
Jā ka▫o ḏarisat ma▫i▫ā har rā▫e. 
That soul, upon whom the Lord has bestowed His Glance of Grace, 

ਸਾ ਬੰਦੀ ਤੇ ਲਈ ਛਡਾਇ ॥ 
सा बंदी ते लई छडाइ ॥ 
Sā banḏī ṯe la▫ī cẖẖadā▫e. 
is delivered from bondage. 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
साधसंगि मिलि हरि रसु पाइआ ॥ 
Sāḏẖsang mil har ras pā▫i▫ā. 
Joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Lord's sublime essence is obtained. 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਫਲ ਓਹ ਕਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ 
कहु नानक सफल ओह काइआ ॥५॥ 
Kaho Nānak safal oh kā▫i▫ā. ||5|| 
Says Nanak, how fruitful is that body. ||5|| 

ਸਭਿ ਰੂਪ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਬਨੇ ਸੁਹਾਗਨਿ ॥ 
सभि रूप सभि सुख बने सुहागनि ॥ 
Sabẖ rūp sabẖ sukẖ bane suhāgan. 
All graces and all comforts shall come to you, as the happy soul-bride; 

ਅਤਿ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬਿਚਖਨਿ ਤੂੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧੨॥ 
अति सुंदरि बिचखनि तूं ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥१२॥ 
Aṯ sunḏar bicẖkẖan ṯūŉ. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||12|| 
you shall be supremely beautiful and wise. ||1||Second. Pause||12||


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## kaur-1 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> At other places Guru ji declares..EVEN the Devtas, angels, demi-gods...SEEK and NEED the Human Body in order to escape this cycle of birth and death and merge with the Creator. This means the devtas etc are also lower in status to a GURMUKH.
> ES dehi ko simreh DEV..."dehi" is human body !!



You write "escape this cycle of birth and death " and yet reject reincarnation.

Awan jawan ie coming and going is the Sikhee form of reincarnation or transmigration and is not limited to just the human form. Though Awan jawan is not fatalistic in Sikhee, it is still a form of reincarnation/transmigration.

Giani ji, what is your reply to these questions If there is only one human life then where ..  Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

kaur Ji,

I "REJECT" Reincarnation..84 lakh joons ( at least now poeple are beginning to see the light that this NUMBER is definitlely WRONG as Creator cannot be LIMITED)..simply becasue GURBANI is for the HUMAN...a TOOL BOX full of TOOLS to IMPROVE his LIFE as a HUMAN.

2. arguing baout the reincarnations and joons...how many in water..and how many on land sea air space..etc etc is like endless arguing about the colour of the "tool box"..why is it flat..it could be roun..its edges could be sharper..etc etc...for me the TIME is SHORT..the Clock begins ticking BACKWARDS (puthee gharee) the second we emerge from the womb..people..the world REJOICES..Kabir Ji says I CRIED !!( and every Baby does CRY..and LOUDLY.but we all IGNORE that CRY in our IGNORANCE..but Kbair ji captured the essence of the CRY.and when we END our TIME...the World now CRIES...again the WORLD IGNORES the JOYFUL Ocassion of Merger with the CREATOR..and instead wails..But.Kabir says I LAUGHED ( because Kabir ji again captured the JOY of the moment which escapes everyone else )

2. GURUS tell us again and Again..I DONT KNOW...I DONT KNOW...ONLY HE KNOWS..ONLY the CREATOR KNOWS IT ALL...  Why cant we understand/or dont want to face it.. when Gurbani declares so forcefully..Baba bolteh they kahan gayeh ?? Why we endlessly "dwell upon"..oh what joon did he go into..or pretend to tell everyone..Satguru de charankamal kol giya...as if we KNOW for a FACT !! we are simply HIDING our own INSECURITIES..we are simply ignoring REALITY that we dont have a clue as to what happened and where the dead went ?? we dwell on..reincarnation...joons...we should have the confidence of Kabir Ji to LAUGH..and go laughing...that where-ever we are GOING..its a JOY. THAT is the MAKSAD..the REASON for GURBANI..to make us strong enough to LAUGH at DEATH.

That is my conclusion. I can go on quoting shabds and shabads..but it is not my piece of cake..the long essays on Sikh Marg ???? ???? are plenty to read about and see the shabads quoted.:welcome:


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## manbir (Aug 29, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji

Gurfateh

Thanks for explaining beautifully. The problem with we people is that we read Gurbani as a story or essay. The fact is that whole of SGGS is a great poetry set to music. We fail to understand  the poetic expressions of our Guru. We do need a poetic sense while reading or singing Gurbani. We Sikhs badly need to understand the difference between an essay and a poetry. Our derawallas have a crude sense and they are the ones responsible for all sorts of mythological stories and misconseptions prevalent in us and in our religious places.

Thanks again


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Aug 29, 2009)

Gyaniji, 

I think you have a phobia to put you always in the limelight only. That’s why you raise your finger always on such issues which any human being can never answer. Your assumption of 84 Lakh joons are of the same theory, you raised your finger earlier on Dasam Granth. See you say that Guruji, just to illustarated  the theory of Gurmat in his followers, concocted the idea of 84 lakh joons.
  You are raising your finger on the grounds that the people who live in Haridwar, the sins they commit daily are washed by a bathe in holy river Ganga, in the same way by merely taking 84 baths and jaaps at the Baoli guarantees you to save you from re-incarnation.
  There is the faith, blind faith to follow the preaching’s of Guru who is the savior. The duties bestowed to us by almighty is not remembered by us and this is the master, the Guru who reminds us, as in Asa Mahalla-5, “BHAI PRAPAT MAANUKH DEHURIA GOBIND MILAN KI EH TERI BARIA !!” So If the almighty has sent on this beautiful planet earth, he has sent us with the condition to jaap thy naam, he arranged and provided to fulfill all our daily needs, he committed to us before he sent us but we are the people who jeopardize with him and the assurances we made before him.
  So Gyaniji, It is not the matter whether there are 84 Lakhs joons or not but we are sure that we shall have to face the almighty after our death. That's why Guru ji says to keep our face clean with the jaap of thy naam baani so the almighty may recognize at once his devout Sikh.
  Any doubt gyani ji?
  Regards and Guru fateh ji !!


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## kds1980 (Aug 29, 2009)

Gyani ji 

sikhmarg is controlled by Neo Atheist type sikh missionaries.These people now have suddenly discovered That there is no transmigration of soul.My question is Do these people beleive in

1) God

2) soul

If yes then where does that soul goes if does it not merge with waheguru.Or we are going to say that all people will have the same fate after the death.if Yes then why to waste time in following sikhi.even Dr. sahib singh in his teeka has several time mentioned about reincarnation so One could hardly justify that there is no concept of transmigration of soul in sikhism.

To be frank I don't have problem with these neo Atheist sikh missionaries .If someone follows them then its ok.But these people should accept that large part of sikh community does not accept their views.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Aug 29, 2009)

Giani Ji thanks for your post on reincarnation and totally agree with you but would like to share a review on the subject;

*REINCARNATION-A REVIEW*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 
The Doctrine of reincarnation teaches that the eternal Conscience of man lives many successive lives on earth occupying every time a human form and continually progressing toward perfection. It must be carefully distinguished from a certain teaching which often goes by the name of Metem-psychosis or Transmigration which holds that humans can incarnate in to animal or vegetable depending on the Karma. The truth of the matter is that there is no transparency in this Doctrine, which can force an individual to progress spiritually under its fear. Ravidas ponders metaphorically in Raag Dhanasari in his loneliness and love towards God;

The rest of this article can be found at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24446-reincarnation-a-review.html


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 29, 2009)

Here is a reply from Sardar Gurmit Singh Ji Of Australia...
  Waheguru jee ka  Khalsa  Waheguru jee kee Fateh

It is an open secret that  during the Rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh
 and the British, the clever brahminical  priests in the guise of Sikhie
 controlled Darbaar Sahib and other  historical Gurduaras and thus,
 started introducing brahminical doctrine and  rituals. This story of
 (84) steps is also their creation. But it is  a pity that despite the
 Singh Sabha Lehr and Gurduara Sudhaar Lehr, Sikhs continue  to
 make use of the Historical Gurduaras just as  Hindus' holy places 
 of pilgrimage. Only difference is that Udasis, Nirmalas,  Mahants, 
 etc have been found to be replaced by the Keshadhari  Priests.

 In so far as the concept of Reincarnation is  concerned, it is nothing
 but imitating other religions such as  Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc.
 The life span of humans and other creatures  is from Birth to Death
 and our body & heart/breath is a  complete package, one without
 other component has no existence. Once a  person breathes last, 
 that is the end of life, though like landing and departure  of different
 Aeroplanes at the Airport, one dies, other takes birth and thus 
 Universe goes on under God's Divine Command. Life is not in our 
 hands because "Birth and Death" is the sole prerogative of the 
 Almighty God. 

Just think, has ever any  dead body come to life from graves,
 which are maintained by Christians,  Mussalmaans, some Hindsus?
 Has ever an ant given birth to an elephant,  or snake to donkey?
 In Pauri 35 of Japp Jee Sahib, we read daily  that there are
 countless species and countless sources of  production and as 
 such, God does not need to recycle  any soul, which has neither
 Entity of its own nor it could be identified  or linked with any
 other body or form of life  !  

 For instance, in India we often see  during "Shraadh Days" when 
 several Sikh families invite Five Singhs for delicious dishes in the 
 memory of their departed parents and grand parents. But food
 never reaches them through brahmins or Five  Singhs?

 Gurmit Singh  (Sydney-Australia)


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## vsgrewal48895 (Aug 29, 2009)

Dear Giani Ji,

I concur with Gurmit Ji's views and same is true about the soul IMHO. As the population of the world is growing-question arises from where these souls are coming? Of course it is simple biological reproductive system which is the cause of it.

How come the life span of individuals have increased mostly in the developed countries-Does it mean that people have become more religious or noble and God has granted an extension to there lives-Of course it is scientific discoveries and medicine the cause of it.

Here are my two cents on the subject of soul which is pertinent for this discussion;

*SOUL/ਜੀਅ/CONSCIENCE*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 
Soul is a metaphysical, indefinable, infinite, inaccessible, inapprehensible and a vital principle. It is considered by most of the humanity as a part of a Higher Power or energy, not subject to destruction, having a consciousness. Still, it remains unappreciated by the normal five senses of, vision, hearing, smell, touch, and taste. Medically it is the aspect of the individual that perceives the experiences of life and actions-conscience through integrated actions of multiple systems of the body. It integrates and changes the out look of life with spiritual progress. Through it one has the chance to become a Guru willed or remain suppressed by free will-self willed. ​-
The rest of the article can be found at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24289-soul-conscience.html


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 29, 2009)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> sikhmarg is controlled by Neo Atheist type sikh missionaries.These people now have suddenly discovered That there is no transmigration of soul.My question is Do these people beleive in
> 
> ...


 
Kanwardeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am a bit confused about what you are trying to convey. Who are theseSo, can you please describe the 2 words that you have mentioned above from the Sikhi view point?

1) God

2) soul

I hope you would  elaborate whatever you say in your own words if you happen to quote Gurbani in your response.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## lotus lion (Aug 29, 2009)

Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,

I have read through this thread, but i am afraid that i am still unsure what your personal stance is on Reincarnation?

Would you mind clarifying this, as sometimes i feel that you are rejecting reincarnation completely, but at other times accepting it.

For me, the Guru Granth Sahib teaches about reincarnation and is a central pillar of the Sikh Dharma. I believe in reincarnation.

Once i have figured out what your stance is, perhaps i can enter the discussion.

Thanks,

Lotus


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 29, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyaniji,
> 
> I think you have a phobia to put you always in the limelight only. That’s why you raise your finger always on such issues which any human being can never answer. Your assumption of 84 Lakh joons are of the same theory, you raised your finger earlier on Dasam Granth. See you say that Guruji, just to illustarated the theory of Gurmat in his followers, concocted the idea of 84 lakh joons.
> You are raising your finger on the grounds that the people who live in Haridwar, the sins they commit daily are washed by a bathe in holy river Ganga, in the same way by merely taking 84 baths and jaaps at the Baoli guarantees you to save you from re-incarnation.
> ...


 
Ajmer Singh ji, 

Guru Fateh.

You have quoted  the following  one liner from Rehraas to justify whatever your point is:

 Asa Mahalla-5, “BHAI PRAPAT MAANUKH DEHURIA GOBIND MILAN KI EH TERI BARIA !!” 

Would you be kind enough to explain the whole Shabad in your own words - just in case you copy and paste the literal translation-, so I can grasp what you are trying to say?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## kaur-1 (Aug 29, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> kaur Ji,
> 
> I "REJECT" Reincarnation..84 lakh joons ( at least now poeple are beginning to see the light that this NUMBER is definitlely WRONG as Creator cannot be LIMITED)..simply becasue GURBANI is for the HUMAN...a TOOL BOX full of TOOLS to IMPROVE his LIFE as a HUMAN.
> 
> ...


Giani Ji , you have to make it clear that rejecting 84 lakh joons is NOT rejecting reincarnation otherwise you are changing Gurmat.

You cannot in one post say that you reject reincarnation totally and next say that we must not delve on it. 

Giani ji, thanks for replying to If there is only one human life then where ..  Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog and as

If there was only one life then would this be fair http://kaurkhalsaraj.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/if-there-was-only-1-life-then-is-this-fair/

This has given me an idea for the next topic  - "Dar Adab".


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## Satyaban (Aug 29, 2009)

My goodness posts are so nice they said it twice.:whisling:
I did not know that there were only 84 go'rounds in Sikhi as I believe there are as many as it takes.

I would think it is easy to avoid rebirth as a dog or elephant and that is to not behave as one. However if it happens it is a part of that person's spiritual evolution. The law of karma is as natural as gravity and not a day to day decision of the creator.

So rebirth is driven by karma.

Upon further reflection I realize I have not really delved into the atman. I believe the atman is the essence of The Creator. So the unavoidable question is what would happen to the atman if there was no rebirth or even limited to 84. Can the essence of The Absolute be condemned, of course not, so what can the answer be?

Peace
Satyaban


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 29, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayario Jios,
> Gurfateh. The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY.


*Giani ji*

*If the most significance mission of our life is just to pay attention and live house holder life, then even animal live house holder life and 99% of human live house holder life. So why the Guru has cautioned us that it is our bareeaa and human form is the only form that has the ability for us to realized God.  Journey will end even otherwise whether we pay attention or not but what is the benefit of realizing God. *

*Though I like your answer. Time is limited as it is ... I want to laugh like Kabir is  ... when it is time to go . no regret. But somehow I feel you are intentionaly escaping from the direct answer about reincarnation.*

*If you permit me we can start from Japjisahib verse karmi avaih kapda nadri mokh duar. Sikhism is a faith of hope and cheers/ Though it affirms karma, it recognizes the possibility of modification of one karma with the grace of the God. It does not lead to despair and defeatism. This is to fulfill the unanswered actions and unfulfilled desires left over from our last lives that have to be balanced. bwsnw bDw Awvy jwvY – entangle with unfulfilled vicious desires mortal comes and goes. Unfinished agenda.  So long as the mind has unfulfilled desires or incomplete work of the past life, to which he is insanely attached, he shall remain chained to the cycle of life and death. But it does mean one lives without any desires but what is important is worldly actions are rightful action with controlled desires. Thus mind must remain detached from 'selfish desire'. Because it is not the 'action' in them that troubles or pleases a person, it is the 'result' of an action that troubles or pleases a person. So the escape from reincartional is His grace which is cardinal doctrine of Sabd Guru. *

*Upon your answer wewill continue.*

*Best regards*
*Mohinder Singh Sahni*
*Kuwait *


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## vsgrewal48895 (Aug 29, 2009)

Satyaban Ji writes; So rebirth is driven by karma.

Dear Satyaban Ji,

Here are my two cents on the subject of Karma for your perusal;

*KARMA/ਕਾਰਜ*​ http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24564-karma.html


Cordially,

Virinder


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## Satyaban (Aug 29, 2009)

Gurmit ji

I am sure I have misunderstood you but I can not see how your following statement sheds any light on the discussion. "Just think, has ever any dead body come to life from graves, which are maintained by Christians, Mussalmaans, some Hindsus?
Has ever an ant given birth to an elephant, or snake to donkey?"

Would any parent forever deny his/her children chance for redemption? Althought that is a rather simplified example I believe our purpose of existence is reunion with the creator. So only having having one chance defeats the purpose.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Aug 29, 2009)

*Although I am sure that Satyaban ji appreciates your quest into the nature of karma virinder ji, the article has been posted elsewhere on the forum. It is also likely to lead to a derailment of the discussion of reincarnation to a related but equally important subject of its own.

So I have edited your comment above to include only the link to the article about karma.

If this discussion moves to Karma and away from support for reincarnation then a new thread will be started. 

Posters please be guided by this thought. Narayanjot Kaur*


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## Satyaban (Aug 29, 2009)

NK ji

I am not one for long posts and try to be brief and to the point without quoting too much literature or scripture. I always like to hear what has been internalized. I do believe the issues of rebirth and karma cannot be separated.

Peace
Satyaban


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## kaur-1 (Aug 29, 2009)

Giani ji, what is your understanding of the term "coming and going" (avai jaaee)?


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## kaur-1 (Aug 29, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> NK ji
> 
> I am not one for long posts and try to be brief and to the point without quoting too much literature or scripture. I always like to hear what has been internalized. I do believe the issues of rebirth and karma cannot be separated.
> 
> ...



For those who do not believe in reincarnation (ie GurSikhee concept of reincarnation) will also have to reject the concept of karma.

If there is only one life, then karma will not apply. Take for example a person born in poverty or crime, drugs, or handicapped etc. Those who believe in one life only are implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice and therefore unjust and unfair.

Its basically throwing the buck back to God and not us.

This will not apply : ਜੇਵੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੇ ਫਲਤੇ ॥: Jevehe  karma kamaavadaa tevehe phalate: One obtains fruits according to the deeds which   he does (sggs 317)

Whats the point when we are going back to the SAT anyways!! There is only one life - we came from the SAT and we will go back to the SAT so whats the point?






Too bad you starving and in pain dying child, thats the hand you were dealt by an unjust God playing the game of roll the dice. Its too bad that you have only one life.


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## spnadmin (Aug 29, 2009)

Let's not ignore my request respected forum members. Of course karma cannot be separated from reincarnation.Who ever said  they were? Someone did request that the discussions retain their focus. Threaded discussions can keep the focus mainly on one or mainly on the other.   However the connection can be made or the thread can suddenly focus mainly on karma. We already saw this misunderstanding occur with a previous poster.


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## kds1980 (Aug 29, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kanwardeep ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji 

I am no magician of words and I always try to write  simple when I refered these I  was referring to writers of sikhmarg.com which have athiestic interpretation of Guru granth sahib.You also said that  I should describe God ,Soul from sikhi point of view.May I ask you is there any standard sikhi point of view?.We all know that Guru granth sahib can be interpretted in thousands of ways so Different sikh sects have different point of view of God and soul.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 29, 2009)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> I am no magician of words and I always try to write  simple when I refered these I  was referring to writers of sikhmarg.com which have athiestic interpretation of Guru granth sahib.You also said that  I should describe God ,Soul from sikhi point of view.May I ask you is there any standard sikhi point of view?.We all know that Guru granth sahib can be interpretted in thousands of ways so Different sikh sects have different point of view of God and soul.



Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am not here to judge anyone what they think or not about reincarnation or if they have atheistic interpretation of SGGS. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that. No one else can find that out no matter how much one tries. That is why Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch.

So,let me ask you this question in another way then. What are your thoughts as a Sikh about God and Soul?

Please share with us.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 29, 2009)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> sikhmarg is controlled by Neo Atheist type sikh missionaries.These people now have suddenly discovered That there is no transmigration of soul.My question is Do these people beleive in
> 
> ...



Guru Piayrio jios,
Gurfateh.

I DONT allow any type of "colouring" to stop me from reading or visiting any site or book or video or movie. Thus I have never refused any Radha Soami literature, any bible literature from visiting "converters"..I ahve Korans presented to me by the Ahmadiyas, I go to Panthic weekly/waheguru network related sites ( to many they must be Solid Panthic Sites and equal perhaps to Gurbani or at least sacred..!!)..I hold the View that NO ONE is all wrong..or all right..each site, each book has something of value..none is absolutley worthless. So Yes Sikh Marg dot com is on my favourite bookmark folder as are those other sites like Tapoban, Damdmai Taksaal, Rara sahib, Nanaksari sites...and i visit and read them all..and come to my own conclusions. That is SIKHI is all about - Gurmatt doesnt restrict one.
The Very first person that i came across with "atheist" views was the Preetlari Author Gurbaksh Singh...who was pushing the idea that Guru Gobind Singh ji was just  a Man..and all his battles etc were won due to brillance of miliraty thinking etc etc..and in those days Malayan SIKHS got  even the British Govt in Malaya to  BAN the Preetlari Magazine as it was supposedly "communist-atheist" anti sikh..even though it was the only Punjabi Magazine of good standard...the thinking was ..we prefer to NOT read anything..IF that is what results form banning preetlari. My dad preferred ANSWERING the Preetlari lekhs through Parchaar..he never beleived in hiding his head in the sand..neither do i.
SIKHS also work on the premise that IF..you tell a lie..or repeat a lie..many times .....people will beleive it as Truth..that is what is happening not only with Sikh Marg..bUT also with people like ME...I have had the Label "Kala afghanist" applied to me..simply becasue I say i did read his books and he is NOT totally WRONG...to many he is NOT TO BE even MENTIONED..much less read !! what height of ignorance. Most of thsoe who so happily apply such labels on others have not bothered to read KA's books...many say the same things about Rozana Spokesman..But keep quiet about the other daily that habitually carries news about Babas, Pir Jormelas, samadh akhand paaths, havans, namdhree guur parvachans, etc etc which are all ANTI-SIKH NEWS on a Daily basis...I dont give two hoots to such biasness.

MY FIRM BELIEF..is..we are Born HUMANS..we have the Unique GIFT of SGGS, GURBANI..which came through the TEN Nanak jamas over  a period of 250 Yeras, we have Hundreds of thousands of Martyrs who SHOWED us the Right Way with their Lives. We have been GIFTED a PIO DADDEH DA KHAZANAH..to "OPEN AND SEE"...use the Gurbani Tools to IMPLEMENT CHANGES in our daily lives...and Become GURMUKHS.
Gurbani GUARANTEES that a GURMUKH will NOT REINCARNATE...a GURMUKH WILL NOT BE IN KARMA..the GURMUKH WILL Have his place in SACHEE DARGAH. AND to become a GURMUKH is not easy..it takes every second of our short human life...so only FOOLS will waste time arguing about...wind blowing and leaves fluttering...because at the Bottom Line..ONLY HE KNOWS all the answers we seek..why we waste time in attempting to count the stars..when we know very well that ONLY HE KNOWS ?? MY aim is i am sitting for the  EXAM of MY LIFE..and i just cannot afford to keep wondering ..what IF..what IF..i have only limited time to "study"..and i must make sure i pass with flying colours..so that i can come out LAUGHING like Kabir Ji said....and occupy my Sacha Pirr in the Sachi Dargah. PERIOD.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayrio jios,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> Gurbani GUARANTEES that a GURMUKH will NOT REINCARNATE...a GURMUKH WILL NOT BE IN KARMA..the GURMUKH WILL Have his place in SACHEE DARGAH. AND to become a GURMUKH is not easy..it takes every second of our short human life...so only FOOLS will waste time arguing about...wind blowing and leaves fluttering...because at the Bottom Line..ONLY HE KNOWS all the answers we seek..why we waste time in attempting to count the stars..when we know very well that ONLY HE KNOWS ?? MY aim is i am sitting for the EXAM of MY LIFE..and i just cannot afford to keep wondering ..what IF..what IF..i have only limited time to "study"..and i must make sure i pass with flying colours..so that i can come out LAUGHING like Kabir Ji said....and occupy my Sacha Pirr in the Sachi Dargah. PERIOD.


 
That is true Giani Ji, Gurbani guarantees that a Gurmukh will not reincarnate, it is the golden opportunity to avail but where is the place for a papi like me. Guru Nanak has given so many metaphors. Will I reincarnate and be given second chance with more punishment in order to settle my dues, if I am little week. What will happen to this hukam, 'kar kar karna likh lai jao aapai beej aapai hi khao nanak hukmi avai jao' or will lekha jokha of my bad karma will be washed and will be given immunity after end of my journey?  Will you simply Laugh like Kabir Ji or will help me to join you. Why Gurbani uses Grace through out SGGS?

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

_What will happen to this hukam, 'kar kar karna likh lai jao aapai beej aapai hi khao nanak hukmi avai jao' or will lekha jokha of my bad karma will be washed and will be given immunity after end of my journey? Will you simply Laugh like Kabir Ji or will help me to join you. Why Gurbani uses Grace through out SGGS?

_Thanks japjisahib ji

This your statement above needs to be repeated more than once. Why do we forget that there is help to make the journey, and why do we forget to seek that help?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

Sahni ji, gurafteh.
a beautiful post.
Of course Kabir Ji wasnt just laughing alone..he wrote the Bani to help us mortals learn how to laugh along with him..and thats also my life mission..to help others along the way..always in the footsteps of SGGS...in my own way and how i know best..understand Gurbani...follow Gurbani...use Gurbani to change our lives so that Guru Jis Grace will fall upon us..His Nadar is all we need..Chardeekalla ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> Giani ji, what is your understanding of the term "coming and going" (avai jaaee)?



Kaur Ji.
Gurfateh.

WE "come"..and we "Go". In between is our Human Life Journey.
To make the best of this OPPORTUNITY and become a GURMUKH.
A "GURMUKH" need not only be a "SIKH"...judging that aspect is His job.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayrio jios,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> I DONT allow any type of "colouring" to stop me from reading or visiting any site or book or video or movie. Thus I have never refused any Radha Soami literature, any bible literature from visiting "converters"..I ahve Korans presented to me by the Ahmadiyas, I go to Panthic weekly/waheguru network related sites ( to many they must be Solid Panthic Sites and equal perhaps to Gurbani or at least sacred..!!)..I hold the View that NO ONE is all wrong..or all right..each site, each book has something of value..none is absolutley worthless. So Yes Sikh Marg dot com is on my favourite bookmark folder as are those other sites like Tapoban, Damdmai Taksaal, Rara sahib, Nanaksari sites...and i visit and read them all..and come to my own conclusions. That is SIKHI is all about - Gurmatt doesnt restrict one.
> ...



Giani ji, this is your statement <<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>> ???


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Kaur Ji.
> Gurfateh.
> 
> WE "come"..and we "Go". In between is our Human Life Journey.
> ...



Still does not explain your statement "<<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>>"

What happens to a manmukh if there is no reincarnation - Sikhee concept of reincarnation/transmigration that is ?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

and I dont think being Born Blind..crippled..female...poor...starving..sick..etc etc is God's PUNISHMENT....WHY all these things happen..ONLY HE KNOWS..read the Asa dee vaar concluding shabads about the Chulleh rehan charreh...
Karma and punishment, original sin etc etc are all laien concepts to GURMUTT. The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility  and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.


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## lotus lion (Aug 30, 2009)

Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,

Forgive me for asking a second time, but would you mind clearing your stance on what your thoughts are on Reincarnation and what you believe the Guru Granth Sahib teaches about this?

"The Guru Granth Sahib teaches Reincarnation. I believe in Reincarnation. "

The above line is my stance on the topic.

Would it be possible to get a similar one-liner from yourself?

From there, i believe it would be possible to start a discussion.

My best regards,

Lotus


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> and I dont think being Born  The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility  and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.



Giani ji, you have already implied God is unjust and unfair by saying that there is only one life!

Please refer to my previous post for this conclusion.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> For those who do not believe in reincarnation (ie GurSikhee concept of reincarnation) will also have to reject the concept of karma.
> 
> If there is only one life, then karma will not apply. Take for example a person born in poverty or crime, drugs, or handicapped etc. Those who believe in one life only are implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice and therefore unjust and unfair.
> 
> ...



Giani ji ,how did we get this 'karma of past actions' if there is only one life according to you and sikhmarg?
krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ]
   karam*ee* *aa*v*ai* kaparr*aa* nadhar*ee* m*o*kh dh*u**aa*r ||
 _By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found._


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



japjisahib04 said:


> *Giani ji*
> 
> *If the most significance mission of our life is just to pay attention and live house holder life, then even animal live house holder life and 99% of human live house holder life. So why the Guru has cautioned us that it is our bareeaa and human form is the only form that has the ability for us to realized God.  Journey will end even otherwise whether we pay attention or not but what is the benefit of realizing God. *
> 
> ...



quote "*But somehow I feel you are intentionaly escaping from the direct answer about reincarnation."

I concur.
*


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> and I dont think being Born Blind..crippled..female...poor...starving..sick..etc etc is God's PUNISHMENT....WHY all these things happen..ONLY HE KNOWS..read the Asa dee vaar concluding shabads about the Chulleh rehan charreh...
> Karma and punishment, original sin etc etc are all laien concepts to GURMUTT. The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.


Giani Ji, I do agree with you being born blind, crippled (I will not add female) is not God's punishment. If that was punishment, then gurbani wouldn't have guided us to share and help. The beauty is though people born blind, crippled still they live in harmony. Is this bothering you to give direct answer on reincarnation. Since journey ends for all, logically it is not possible that both paapi like me and puni meets the same ends and if the end for both same, then why gurbani is emphassing on hukam rajaaiye chalna.      

Best regards 
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> and I dont think being Born Blind..crippled..female...poor...starving..sick..etc etc is God's PUNISHMENT....WHY all these things happen..ONLY HE KNOWS..read the Asa dee vaar concluding shabads about the Chulleh rehan charreh...
> Karma and punishment, original sin etc etc are all laien concepts to GURMUTT. The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility  and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.



Giani ji I think you are missing the point.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

Sahni Ji, Gurfateh,
Imho YES.
1. There is no concept of Paap and Punn in Gurbani..BOTH are the Creator Himself.
Guru ji ha NEVER condemned nayone for being a Paapi...its always the "action" that is condemned and that action CAN be changed in this life...as did Sajjan Thuggh, Kauda Raksh and many others who met Guru Nanak ji..
2. So they are not belonging to different sides and go different ways.
3. Is it just "humility and magnanimity" on Guru Arjun Jis part when he says..dosh na kahoon devohn and tera bhanna metha laggeh..- thet Guru arjun nJi just doesnt "KNOW" who the papi is who is torturing and killing him..or the "paapi chnadu/Jehangir" are existing ONLY in OUR mind but not in Guru Arjun ji becasue in fcat there is NO Paapi and no Punni..BOTH are the Play of the Creator..Guur Ji is Hukm Razaii Challnna -following the Hukm set for HIM..and Jehangir is also following his hukm in his own manmukh way..
4. IMHO take the act of WATER returnign to the Ocean..one of the most used metaphors to describe our merger back into the SAT...doesnt "bad/paapi? water also go back into the Ocean just as readily and without HINDRANCE as Rain Water ? The OCEAN never rejects any drop..be it highly polluted sewage...or pure SNOW FLAKES falling upon its surface..ALL find solace on its surface and mingle in. IMHO the Creator is like the Ocean..He accepts ALL...
5. There is no question of me avoiding the reincarnation..i find it a superflous rejected theory becasue Gurbani tells us..nay INSTRUCTS us how to become GURMUKHS..SNOW FLAKES...and fall from the skies onto the Ocean Surface..rather than flow into it via  sewage canal... Reincarnation like Karma, good and bad, paap and punn, rewards and punishment, hell and heaven are ALL REJECTED THEORIES. Gurbani MENTIONS them to reflect what *WAS*...and then goes on to GIVE us a TOTALLY NEW DIRECTION, NEW CONCEPT - GURMUKH that becomes JEEWAN MUKT without Fera but through LOVE of His Hukm.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Sahni Ji, Gurfateh,
> Imho YES.
> 3. Is it just "humility and magnanimity" on Guru Arjun Jis part when he says..dosh na kahoon devohn and tera bhanna metha laggeh..- thet Guru arjun nJi just doesnt "KNOW" who the papi is who is torturing and killing him..or the "paapi chnadu/Jehangir" are existing ONLY in OUR mind but not in Guru Arjun ji becasue in fcat there is NO Paapi and no Punni..BOTH are the Play of the Creator..Guur Ji is Hukm Razaii Challnna -following the Hukm set for HIM..and Jehangir is also following his hukm in his own manmukh way..


Giani Ji 
In stanza 17 Guru Nanak quotes that there are millions of articles and holy granth but despite availability of all these wisdom, he is astonished to observe the devils and nobles play of nature on this earth. He does not enter into controversy regarding the basis of all this. He simply says, “jo iqsu BwvY nwnkw sweI gl cMgI ] - whatever pleases You my beloved,  is best.” - Guru Granth ang.726.13 (But when it came for argument at the extreme, Guru Nanak left enough authority to the seeker to cry for appeal and make commentary on the pathetic condition by saying “Eti Maar peiyee karlane te ki dard na aayaa -There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn’t You feel compassion, O Master?” What is this then Giani Ji. Can you elborate.
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## kds1980 (Aug 30, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kanwardeep Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



My views about God and soul are somewhat similar to what is written on sikhiwiki
God - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
 The fundamental belief of Sikhism, too, is that God exists, not merely as an idea or concept, but as a Real Being, indescribable yet not unknowable

soul
Soul - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
The soul according to Sikhism is an entity in our body because of which the body can sustain life. On the departure of this entity from the body, the body becomes lifeless - No amount of manipulations to the body can make the person make any physical actions. The soul is the ‘driver’ in the body. It is the ‘roohu’ or spirit, the presence of which makes the physical body alive.


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## kds1980 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayrio jios,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> I DONT allow any type of "colouring" to stop me from reading or visiting any site or book or video or movie. Thus I have never refused any Radha Soami literature, any bible literature from visiting "converters"..I ahve Korans presented to me by the Ahmadiyas, I go to Panthic weekly/waheguru network related sites ( to many they must be Solid Panthic Sites and equal perhaps to Gurbani or at least sacred..!!)..I hold the View that NO ONE is all wrong..or all right..each site, each book has something of value..none is absolutley worthless. So Yes Sikh Marg dot com is on my favourite bookmark folder as are those other sites like Tapoban, Damdmai Taksaal, Rara sahib, Nanaksari sites...and i visit and read them all..and come to my own conclusions. That is SIKHI is all about - Gurmatt doesnt restrict one.
> ...



Gyani ji

I am not saying that reading sikhmarg is bad.At one time i too used to visit it
and read articles from it .But beleiving in their Atheistic  type of views and interpretations are hard to beleive for me.Many questions on this thread have been raised  about reincarnation and I am sorry to say hardly anyone has been properly answered


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

japjisahib04 said:


> That is true Giani Ji, Gurbani guarantees that a Gurmukh will not reincarnate, it is the golden opportunity to avail but where is the place for a papi like me. Guru Nanak has given so many metaphors. Will I reincarnate and be given second chance with more punishment in order to settle my dues, if I am little week. What will happen to this hukam, 'kar kar karna likh lai jao aapai beej aapai hi khao nanak hukmi avai jao' or will lekha jokha of my bad karma will be washed and will be given immunity after end of my journey?  Will you simply Laugh like Kabir Ji or will help me to join you. Why Gurbani uses Grace through out SGGS?
> 
> Best regards
> Mohinder Singh Sahni
> Kuwait



Mohinder ji ,

Guru Fateh.

Our  Karams are about our human life, what deeds do we perform here? What seeds do we sow here? Karams have nothing to do with so called previous lives in Sikhi because no one knows about them as it is just a belief based on subjective truth not on objective reality that Sikhi is based on.

That is why for a Gurmukh, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the mindset by Shabad Vichaar gets rid of this belief. 

Guru Nanak Dev ji explains how to have the right kind of mindset about this very well in Jap ji,"Sunyei manhiei, munn keetah bhaoh, antter gatt, tirath mal navoah."

In other words,by listening to Gurbani- not just hearing it-, one develops awareness, realisation, understanding and acceptance of Gurus' teachings which in result springboard  us with motivation so that we can  put these  teachings into practice in our everyday lives. This is what Gurbani says is the only pilgrimage for a Sikh, which means that a Sikh becomes a true pilgrim 24-7 when he/ she has sowed the seeds of goodness within.

Regarding your statement about "Gurbani guarantees that a Gurmukh will not reincarnate, it is the golden opportunity to avail *but where is the place for a papi like me,*" Mohinder ji, Gurbani says we are all paapis, no exception. That is why we should follow what Guru Nanak Dev ji said above. 

Paapi in Sikhi is like a horse rider. If a horse rider claims that he/she has never fallen off the horse then that person has never ridden a horse.

Gurbani teaches  us that it is ok to fall, and it does not matter how often we fall, it is how fast we get up, dust off and carry onto the Sikhi marg. Once we start doing that then we create the Gurmat mind set which does not  allow us to blame our falls on some karams in some past lives which no one has any idea about.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> Still does not explain your statement "<<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>>"
> 
> What happens to a manmukh if there is no reincarnation - Sikhee concept of reincarnation/transmigration that is ?





Kaur-1 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Only Ik Ong Kaar knows who is a Gurmukh and who is a Manmukh. No one else can find that out no matter how much he or she tries to play IK Ong Kaar. So, let us leave this to The Source and follow Gurbani which says that anyone who follows Sikhi Marg is able to develop the mindset which gets rid of the beliefs of reincarnation or 84 Lakh joons.

In my opinion, these 2 are just fancy words for recycling. We all get recycled in some manner or the other. It is like a supermarket bagger asking you which one would you prefer for your groceries, paper or plastic?

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> For those who do not believe in reincarnation (ie GurSikhee concept of reincarnation) will also have to reject the concept of karma.
> 
> If there is only one life, then karma will not apply. Take for example a person born in poverty or crime, drugs, or handicapped etc. Those who believe in one life only are implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice and therefore unjust and unfair.
> 
> ...









Kaur-1 ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:



> Too bad you starving and in pain dying child, thats the hand you were dealt by* an unjust God playing the game of roll the dice*. Its too bad that you have only one life


.

The God you mentioned above is how the Semitic people think of their concept of God who is vengeful, creates evil- hence evil, jealous and kills babies.

Following are just a few examples which I am sure you must be aware of:

-*Isaiah 13:15-18*,* If God can find you, he will thrust you through, smash your children to pieces before your eyes,**

Jeremiah 19:7-9**God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.**

Hosea 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up." *

 *GOD created perfect EVIL Ezekiel 28:15

God said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children." (Ezekiel 9:5-6) 

"I am the LORD your God, ...... And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29) *
 
One can go on and on.
 
The above has nothing to do with the concept of Ik Ong Kaar in Sikhi who is NIRBHAU and NIRVAIR.

So, the picture you showed has everything to do with  actions of fiendish cruel people who make children suffer and starve while lining their own pockets with the aid they get from the outside world when famines or natural disasters are stuck.
 Do you remember Katrina  in New Orleans when Bush had no idea what was happening there while he was vacationing in Crawford, Texas, at his cozy ranch?

It has nothing to do with some unjust god the way you claimed.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

Tejwant ji

Though I do not think that Kaur-1 ji intended Ik Oankaar to be cast in the semitic way, I cannot help but repeat your words as follows:

*So, the picture you showed has everything to do with actions of fiendish cruel people who make children suffer and starve while lining their own pockets with the aid they get from the outside world when famines or natural disasters are stuck.

*A buzzard is waiting for a child to die of starvation and weakness - imagine the terror of the child -- because of the deeds, the kamas, of Manmukhs NOW. Deeds in a previous joon are of no relevance. All who put into action the political tactics that led to this, and all who failed to do something, anything, to stop it (me, I have done nothing) have turned their/my faces from the Guru. The fact of this evil is my punishment NOW. More importantly, having another chance in another lifetime to change my ways,purify my spiritual identity, and obtain mukhtee, does not achieve justice for that child NOW.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

EXACTLY Narayanjot Ki..YOU seem to be even better than me at putting across what i am trying to say...Beautiful....that is exactly what Gurbani is all about...NOW...not he "past..not the future....NOW. NOW NOW..everything happens NOW !!.

ALL this stuff about what will happen FUTURE !!!..a baba used to tell this ridiculous story..a Sadhu who had spent a life time in Meditation...was sitting in meditation one day..wehn a COW ran past him after escaping the Butcher..who wasnt far behind...the butcher came to the sadhu and asked him..have you seen my cow..and the sadhu kept quiet..BUT POINTED in the direction the cow took. Neeldess to say the Cow was caught..and slaughtered...BUT thats not the end of the story...IN the FUTURE...the sadhu had to become a COW..and was Slaughtered...becasue in hsi previous life..he pointed her out to the butcher !!! Can anything be MORE RIDICULOUS..yet people lap up such tall tales with vigour...Karma..jaisah beejh taisah lunneh..sow and reap blah blah.
ALL the SOWING is on this EARTH..and all the REAPING is also Here. People who sow COTTON will get COTTON and NOT Papyas !! HERE and NOW. Gurbani tells us how to GET PAPAYAS..if we wnat papyas...or Cotton if we need cotton..NOTHING is a Vague imaginary "happening in the future..next life blah blah..THAT is the stories Snake Oil merchants tell you..NOT the GURUS..they came to Tell us the TRUTH.:welcome:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

The 84 lakh joon brick rests on the reincarnation brick which rests on the Karam brick..a House of Cards.
For decades no body dared to even write a single sentence against eh Imaginary 84 lakh joon figure..the various granths the various religious sects had different figures and all...then it became clear that GURU NANAK JI rejects this imaginary figure because the Creation is limitless...not possible to LIMIT HIM into a FINITE number..which the 84 lakh joon actually is...
Previously the Creator was also being LIMITED to Finite numbers..Heavens, Planets, Pataals and earths etc..GURU NANAK JI Rejected this too and revealed the UNLIMITED Vastness of the Craetor...so the pataals and all stood rejected as false
Then the Creator was LIMITED to being GOOD ...the PUNNI..the REWARDER...whiel the BAD GUY was the so callaed Dharam Raaj..the SAITAN..shaitan...etc etc..GURU NANAK JI REJECTED this LIMITATION of the CREATOR..declaring he is LIMITLESS..and cannot be CONFINED to "GOOOD" only while the BAD is out of His...Gurbani says HE is ALL GOOD and BAD. He is Paapi and He is Punnee..
NOTHING HELPS..everything depends on HIS GRACE...a so called Paapi cna be saved..a so callaed Mahaprash Sri 1000000008 can be REJECTED..IF HE so wishes..THERE is NO APPEAL..NO COURT..NO RECOURSE..HE Makes the Final Call. HIS GRACE is uppermount..surmounts ALL.
Previously so called "scholars..Brahmas..Vishnus..Shivas..Brahmcharis..Rishis..Munis TRIED to SECOND GUESS HIM..HIS ACTIONS...limited Him..He cna ONLY do this..HE CANT possibly DO THAT..How can a Papee be saved..How could a Punnee be rejected...They tried to EXPLAIN :His ACTIONS...His BEHAVIOUR...tried to REASON and LOGIC...all those is REJECTED BY GURBANI...HIS NAME is TRUTH and He is the CREATOR..the SAT..the OCEAN that ACCEPTS ALL...snow flakes..sewage..hydrochloric acid..sweet rain..pure ice bergs from Greenland..the dirties polluted water from the cities of New York etc...NO DISCIMINATION.
Same types still continue to make JUDGEMENT CALLS..they show us Chernobyl..and  ASK>>WHY? WHAT did those people do ??..What did the German Jews do to deserve Hitler ? What did the Russins do to deserve Stalin..what did the world do to deserve Jenghiz Khan..Hannibal..what did the PUNJABIS DO TO DESERVE GURU NANAK JYOT ??
WHO KNOWS ?? WHY we try and Play GOD ?? ask..wonder..frustrated..because there are NO ANSWERS...Guur nnak ji Didnt say WHY He came to PUNJAB...why not ISRAEL..why NOT CHINA...why not ARFICA..or INUIT ?? Men CREATED their own tall tale and foisted it on to Guur Gobind Singh Ji..putting words into His Mouth..as to why??when ??what For?.. etc etc when in fact HE said NO SUCH THING !!! Its all CONJECTURE fairy tales...and men are proud that the Guur is admitting to his "previous life"..becasue thats what they have been beleiving in stuff all along...when we ask Then WHY GURU NANAK to Guru Teg babhdur Ji didnt explain nay such PREVIOUS LIVES..penances..karams etc etc..whY ?? and why NOT ?? again the same FRUSTRATION...because ONLY HE KNOWS..and its HIS DOMAIN..we are beating our heads...against the WALL...
The HOUSE OF CARDS..built on FINITE JOONS..reincarnations based on DEEDS..imagined and not true becasue NO BODY has any evidence of what constitutes what..Karma etc falls FLAT.
GURU NANAK JI came in Human Form, spoke Human Language, Wrote Human Language, sang human language, Gurbani is in Human Language...and its for HUMANS to USE it and Become GURMUKHS....and HOPE that HIS GRACE is forthcoming...OTHERWISE..its HIS WISH.....He is the CREATOR..the final authority...on why chernobyl..and why nagasaki..and why americans are so rich...and saudis have got so much oil..while the sudanese wait for Buzzards to eat them alive...whoever can ANSWER all these questiosn is the CREATOR..Congrats !!! But I doubt He reads SPN...( he he he maybe HE DOES..!!!):happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

and another point worth noting...WHY do we have this Tall tales spread by the Nanaksari and other sampardaiyas that BABA NANAK IS COMING AGAIN....The Nanaksarees spread this falsehood that Guru nanak ji has already completed 10 jaams from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh.and He is Now in the Nanaksaree Babas..Nand Singh, Ishar Singh et al...SECRETLY..and from Number 85 of these Babas Guru nanak will again become MANIFEST OPENLY.
Others often claim they are GURU NANAK..Guru Gobind Singh..or any other Guru they fancy or imagine themelves to be...

BOTH these scenarios are DIRECTLY due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI.:yes::yes::yes: The Blind leading the Blind..towards OBLIVION...


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Aug 31, 2009)

Gyani ji. 
I remember when the last thread was closed, my last mail was that you, by raising the finger on authenticity of Dasam Granth, also raises the authenticity of Hemkund Sahab and Hazoor Sahab. After that , the thread was closed. 
In continuation of that thread in a new face now you have raised once again your finger on Guru Amar das ji, Not only 3rd guru but also again on Guru Gobind singh ji because both of them have proved the re-incarnation. For your kind information the incarnation theory is not new. See----
Far too often we blindly believe in what we have been taught without using our own faculties to examine the world around us and to come to our own conclusions. The concept of reincarnation and of Karma has existed since the dawn of time and it forms the foundation of a number of the great religions of the East: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and Zoroastrianism. Japanese esoteric Dadaism, Tibetan traditions and other disciplines of South-East Asia also make use of these ideas. In ancient Greece, the main scientific and philosophical schools accepted the principal of past lives, notably the Pythagoreans, Aristotelians and the Platonists. Ancient jewish groups such as the Hessians, the Pharsians and the Caraites include the notion of past lives in their teachings and these branches of jewish faith form the basis of modern day Christianity. The Gnostics, the Kabbalistes, Amerindians, pre-columbine cultures, Polynesian Shamans, Celtic Druids and the wise men of African, Peruvian, Columbian and Brazilian cultures also share this faith as do many modern schools of thought such as the Theosophies and the Anthroposohes.

The use of  past life regression techniques are for many years now as these are fantastically efficient techniques and are capable of plunging any person deep into the subconscious to do a little 'spring-cleaning'! Unfortunately in the West science has rejected spirituality as an irrational dream even though in antiquity the Greek, Egyptian, Mayan and Incan societies spent a great deal of time researching the nodes of the past and therapeutic techniques developed to dissolve these nodes became a part of everyday life. However it must be said that through the work of quantum physics a certain notion of reincarnation has been re-introduced over the past few years. Today many experiments have sought to prove re-incarnation and these experiments have been greatly supported by the reports of spontaneous past life regressions which have occurred to people in various states of altered consciousness. These regressions occur whether or not the individual previously 'believed' in past lives. In a number of these cases, the regression can be objectively assessed.
I hope your curiosity would have been satisfied by now. Well i couldn't understand what took you to Goindwal if you were not ready to accept the theory of re-incarnation? Why did you performed 84 Japji sahab path if mentally you were not prepared? I wonder.
Guru fateh !!


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Aug 31, 2009)

Nanaksari and some other Babae's are misqouting the concept of reincarnation and predict a false rumour that Guru Nanak ji or Guru Gobind Singh ji will come again. Absolutely impossible. Yes bhatt says, "Kawan kahat hai Guru muaa". When guru ji is not dead, he is present among 5 pyare. But the recarnation theory is different then this belief.
Dalai Lama before he dies, raises his finger in any particular direction and the followers search the new born babies in that direction. Through some of their technique they find out the new baby in new avtar of Dalai Lama. That also proves the theory of re-incarnation.
In AGGS, the mahalla, resembles one jot of Guru Nanak in all Gururs. Gyani ji do you have any doubt?


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## lotus lion (Aug 31, 2009)

Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,

I think it is fair to say that you beleive that you do not believe in reincarnation.

"..._due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI"_

_"So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period."_

If it is OK, I will take this as the starting point of our discussion. 

If you feel that this is an unjust statement please say and we will take the conversation another direction.

Now I am afraid to say that you are completely mistaken. Perhaps even lost in a quagmire.

Reincarnation is a fundamental pillar of the Sikh Dharma, intertwined with Karma and is taught throughout the Guru Granth Sahib.

Please see one tuk of interest from many:

_*Sarab jī▫ā mėh eko ravai. *_
_*Among all beings, the One Lord is pervading. *_

_*Manmukẖ ahaŉkārī fir jūnī bẖavai. ||5|| *_
_*The eogtistical, self-willed manmukhs wander in reincarnation. ||5|| *_

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 228

For Brothers and Sisters who are not versed in reading the Gurmukhi Script at the moment, Me included, i have included the transliteration.

Fir means again.

Juni means birth.

Therefore Fir Juni means Birth again. I.e. Reincarnation.

Would you agree with me that this statement means that the Guru Granth Sahib teaches about Reincarnation?

Sincerely Gyani Ji, I request that you answer the question directly so that we can actually have a real discussion. I say that as respectfully as i can as whenever i have asked directly, it is completely ignored.

Thanks,

Lotus


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 31, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> BOTH these scenarios are DIRECTLY due to the False beleif of reincarnation which is REJECTED by GURBANI.:yes::yes::yes: The Blind leading the Blind..towards OBLIVION...


Giani Ji

Though I totally reject these babas, but had there been no reincarnation, Guru Arjan Ji wouldn't have mislead us by stating, 'anik janam bharam thith nahi paey' SGGS 686.18. In addition if there is really no reincarnation then from where the carried forward Grace forthcome for those who are born in golden spoon and flourish without doing any good deeds or mediatating. On the other hand I have seen people who really are devoted and fully dedicated but one day I hear their young daughter becomes widow or other serious tragedy falls upon them.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## spnadmin (Aug 31, 2009)

Lotus ji

Thanks for including the translation because it is a forum rule to have the English version of tuks, etc.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 31, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kaur-1 ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant singh ji, Hukam raja-ee calna Nanak *lekhea naal.* We do not know what karam we collected from our past lives whatever form they maybe. But there is no denying that each of us are born with hukam that is lekhea naal. One of this determines our lifespan. We do not remember our past and we do not know our future. This is why we treat our life as if its the last chance to achieve the purpose of life. Gurbani says to make effort now and not to waste time and therefore waste our human life so hard to get.

If there is only one life then its very obvious that its implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice when writing the hukam. This implies that God is unjust and unfair.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 31, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> Though I do not think that Kaur-1 ji intended Ik Oankaar to be cast in the semitic way, I cannot help but repeat your words as follows:
> 
> ...



We do not know what our past karam are. We also do not remember our past lifes but we know this  "ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ  ਪਾਈ  ਦ੍ਰੁਲਭ  ਦੇਹ  ॥
Cẖirankāl pā▫ī ḏarulabẖ ḏeh.
After a very long time, one obtains this precious human body, so difficult to obtain.
ਬੜੇ ਚਿਰਾਂ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਿਲ ਨਾਲ ਹੱਥ ਲੱਗਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। "

quote Sakhi"
_*Mardana and the ants*
Guru Nanak arrived in Eminabad, in those days called Saidapur, after the invasion of Babar. The followers of Ibrahim Lodhi, the Sultan of Delhi, had resisted and Babar's army had decimated the town. The buildings were burned and in ruins and women and children walked among the dead, weeping and wailing. 
As they walked among the destruction Mardana asked,  "The Sultan was not so very popular here.  Why were the lives of so many innocent people ruined?" 
"It's justice," said Guru Nanak. 
"This can't be justice," said Mardana. "Most of those killed were honest, hardworking men. And what could the women and children have done to deserve this? I don't see how God could let something like this happen." 
"I have business in another part of town," replied the Guru.  "Why don't you rest here, and I will explain it when I get back?" 
Mardana lay down under a banyan tree and was soon fast asleep. He awakened suddenly to a bite on his leg. Looking down, he saw that he was covered with ants. He jumped up, slapping his legs and stomping his feet. When he was satisfied that all the ants were gone he looked up to see Guru Nanak smiling at him. 
"Only one of those ants bit you," said the Guru, "and look what you've done to their whole population. Just how many did you cripple or kill? And where is the guilty one?" "
_

The suffering person in the picture maybe in the situation he is because of past karam which is lekhea nal or may not be as the sakhi above says.

The child above is most probably born into a family who are already going through severe hardship. So why was he born into that family and not in my shoes?
Its all Gods play - a 'just' one and not a game of roll the dice.


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## raj11 (Aug 31, 2009)

rwgu gOVI mwlvw mhlw 5
r*aa*g gaarr*ee* m*aa*lav*aa* mehal*aa* 5
_Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehla:_

<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sath*i*g*u*r pras*aa*dh ||
_One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:_

hir nwmu lyhu mIqw lyhu AwgY ibKm pMQu BYAwn ]1] rhwau ]
har n*aa*m l*ae*h*u* m*ee*th*aa* l*ae*h*u* *aa*g*ai* b*i*kham pa(n)thh bh*ai**aa*n ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
_Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||_

syvq syvq sdw syiv qyrY sMig bsqu hY kwlu ]
s*ae*vath s*ae*vath sadh*aa* s*ae*v th*ae*r*ai* sa(n)g basath h*ai* k*aa*l ||
_Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head._

kir syvw qUM swD kI ho kwtIAY jm jwlu ]1]
kar s*ae*v*aa* th*oo*(n) s*aa*dhh k*ee* h*o* k*aa*tt*ee**ai* jam j*aa*l ||1||
_Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||_

hom jg qIrQ kIey ibic haumY bDy ibkwr ]
h*o*m jag th*ee*rathh k*ee*e*ae* b*i*ch ho*u*m*ai* badhh*ae* b*i*k*aa*r ||
_You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases._

nrku surgu duie BuMcnw hoie bhuir bhuir Avqwr ]2]
narak s*u*rag dh*u*e bh*u*(n)chan*aa* h*o*e bah*u*r bah*u*r avath*aa*r ||2||
_You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||_

isv purI bRhm ieMdR purI inhclu ko Qwau nwih ]
s*i*v p*u*r*ee* breham e*i*(n)dhr p*u*r*ee* n*i*hachal k*o* thh*aa*o n*aa*h*i* ||
_The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent._

ibnu hir syvw suKu nhI ho swkq Awvih jwih ]3]
b*i*n har s*ae*v*aa* s*u*kh neh*ee* h*o* s*aa*kath *aa*veh*i* j*aa*h*i* ||3||
_Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||_

jYso guir aupdyisAw mY qYso kihAw pukwir ]
j*ai*s*o* g*u*r o*u*padh*ae*s*i**aa* m*ai* th*ai*s*o* keh*i**aa* p*u*k*aa*r ||
_As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken._

nwnku khY suin ry mnw kir kIrqnu hoie auDwru ]4]1]158]
n*aa*nak keh*ai* s*u*n r*ae* man*aa* kar k*ee*rathan h*o*e o*u*dhh*aa*r ||4||1||158||
_Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||_
ang 214

New here.  The above shabad is all on reincarnation.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

Kaur-1 ji,

Gur Fateh.

You write:

*



If there is only one life then its very obvious that its implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice when writing the hukam. This implies that God is unjust and unfair.

Click to expand...

* 
Sorry to know that you believe in, seek an unjust, unfair God, where as Ik Ong Kaar is Nirbhau and Nirvair and is sans duality.

Tejwant Singh


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## Admin (Aug 31, 2009)

raj11 said:


> *New here*.  The above shabad is all on reincarnation.



*Dear all, (my apologies for an off-topic reply in this topic's context but it was important)

So, you are a new member? :welcome: My apologies, but before i deactivate your triplicate memberships at SPN one more time... i have to keep public aware of  people like you and your gang headed by inder singh... 

For the benefit of entire readership, raj11 is none other than  juvenile member 'Singh' from Canada, who had publicly displayed his inability to indulge in any dialogue on any issue in hand and bragged about never posting or even visiting SPN... and who along with Inder singh and his gang, shamelessly, did tried to run a miserably failed propaganda campaigns against SPN in direct conspiracy/conjunction with Juvenile forums likes SikhSangat.com and SikhAwareness.com...  ...is still loitering around SPN... and now he posts through his triplicate ids and proclaims he is new member here... shows your character...  ... it is pertinent to inform you all  members here that,  recently, he had again visited SPN and quite shamelessly spit venom against the administration in their public profiles (the content were too objectionable to mention here, only a per.vert person can think or write like this... and so we had to deactivate his original account (Singh) but he then create another id inder10 yesterday and now he has created his third id. raj11... and he thinks we would not know...  Sorry, but i had to write this obituary for you... RIP*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 31, 2009)

*The shabad has been deleted. Forum rules require both Gurmukhi and English translation with Ang or Panna. You are welcome to repost the shabad. Thank you; Narayanjot Kaur*


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 31, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kaur-1 ji,
> 
> Gur Fateh.
> 
> ...


 Tejwant Ji,  
Nirvair does not mean he let you harm His creation. That is why guru sahib says Puni paapi akhan naheh - virtures and vice are not mere words for us to say, all deeds done with utmost concentration blended together with mind and body are recorded instantly- what we do so shall we reap.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## Satyaban (Aug 31, 2009)

Namaste

That is one of the most powerful photos I have seen. I mean it speaks volumes. Man's inhumanity to man, where is God?, where are the NGOs, where is the rest of the world, how did and do WE allow this to happen. Also the vulture is nature, life goes on, which takes on the role as the bad guy waiting for the child to die. The vulture is only following its dharma, its duty, its nature. Most of the questions I mentioned above would not be asked without knowing some history of the area.

Without a history what are the questions raised? Still there is the question "Where is God?" or "How could God allow this?" and some others.

The question "Where is God?" would be coming from those in doubt or lack of understanding. Where those who have some understanding or enlightenment would say "Yes, yes this is God" as is everything. Indeed this poor child pulls mightily at the heartstrings.

Where was God?, right there. Why was that child born in those circumstances? Did someone draw the shortest straw for him, I think not.
My answer would be karma and perhaps an early death will help bring things heading on a path to balance and relieve suffering. What else can explain children born with defects and others struck down seemingly out of the blue. Also being born into wealth and comfort is not always a boon and can present the individual with multiple challenges and desperation and despair.

So I believe that all that lives dies and all that dies is reborn.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Aug 31, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> *Dear all, (my apologies for an off-topic reply in this topic's context but it was important)
> 
> So, you are a new member? :welcome: My apologies, but before i deactivate your triplicate memberships at SPN one more time... i have to keep public aware of  people like you and your gang headed by inder singh...
> 
> For the benefit of entire readership, raj11 is none other than  juvenile member 'Singh' from Canada, who had publicly displayed his inability to indulge in any dialogue on any issue in hand and bragged about never posting or even visiting SPN... and who along with Inder singh and his gang, shamelessly, did tried to run a miserably failed propaganda campaigns against SPN in direct conspiracy/conjunction with Juvenile forums likes SikhSangat.com and SikhAwareness.com...  ...is still loitering around SPN... and now he posts through his triplicate ids and proclaims he is new member here... shows your character...  ... it is pertinent to inform you all  members here that,  recently, he had again visited SPN and quite shamelessly spit venom against the administration in their public profiles (the content were too objectionable to mention here, only a per.vert person can think or write like this... and so we had to deactivate his original account (Singh) but he then create another id inder10 yesterday and now he has created his third id. raj11... and he thinks we would not know...  Sorry, but i had to write this obituary for you... RIP*



Amazing Aman ji. Amazing.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

THE TRUTH ALWAYS OUTS,,,Guru Nanak Ji taught US that...a  Sikh should at least know that basic TEACHING of our Founder !! Shameless NANG Mallang....has a beautiful Obituary...Truly Rest in Peace !!:}8-::}8-:ha


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

Huck_Finn said:


> gyani ji
> 
> here is a tuk from Bhagat Ravidas ji
> 
> ...



What were the other Janams ? why no mention ?? ONLY "THIS" Janam...
cant the ..
next" janam do just as well ?? Whats so special about THIS Janam ??

Because there is ONLY THIS "JANAM"....as  a MEANS to an END...Merger. Not the one BEFORE..and Not the One AFTER !! THIS ONLY.

Any Guru/Bhagt bani also saying..NEVER MIND..Dont worry..NEXT JANAM also can...do....whats the Big deal..anyway..got so many chances...if you dont make it in human birth..plenty of others....84 LAKH chances in fact !! No lottery offers that many opportunities ??

IF the ONLY ONE BUS..is going to pass by and pick me up..THATS the ONE I am going to Take...anyone else wanting to "wait" for the next one is welcome.

By the way..these "janams" are..our BIRTH..as a DOG..wehn we let greed take over...the dog that is barking inside us unless we tell it to shut up...or the endless pig ...elephant of sex...desire...etc etc. KARTOOT Passu ki..Manush Jaat  Human BODY..but ANIMAL ACTIONS..those "janams" SEPARATE us form the Creator...Human ACTIONS in Human BODY are the "janmas" that help us towards our Goal. Whenever the Bhagat has a birth of these animal actions inside him..those are WASTED Janams...wasted MOMENTS...He BEGS that this Human body be Fully UTILISED in HUMAN ACTIONS..and no more animal janams take over...that is what I understand from the Tuk of Bhaagat ji.  Whenever I Wake Up in the Morning...ready for a animal action (Burreh kaam ko utth khaloyah)..i am "born"..and when that animal action desire DIES..it is the END of that Janam..and REBIRTH of a Human Janam (prayer/meditation). IN a Single HOUR it is possible to...BE SEPARATED from HIM....through the birth of so many animal janams...:hmm::hmm:


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## Satyaban (Aug 31, 2009)

Gyani ji

If we live everyday of our life as best we can keeping worship and doing no harm everything else should take care of itself shouldn't it. So what we believe about rebirth is of no consequence although someone who has greatly offended The Creator or whose offenses can not be atoned in a lifetime may find some consolation. Although it is quite a stretch I as a father would never give up on my children but compare that to The Creator's perfect love for us, "He" would not give up on us. If you believe as I do.

There are also other aspects such as grieving. Okay some body dies and we may miss that person's personality, the tangible effects of their love etc, however there is only death for the physical body, if you believe as I do. So doesn't our grieving become an act of selfishness or self serving, it is for the living not for the dead.

We could continue into why some are born into hopeless poverty, crippled in body or mind, or born into prosperity. It can not be random chance or just that child's bad luck, if you believe as I do. How would you attempt to explain such challenges at the start of a child's life? Is it an unfortunate clash of genes, did this child come from the shallow end of the gene pool, a problem of chromosomes sure but why that soul or jiva?

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> What were the other Janams ? why no mention ?? ONLY "THIS" Janam...
> cant the ..
> next" janam do just as well ?? Whats so special about THIS Janam ??
> 
> ...


 
Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Some people fail to understand a couple of things while keeping on beating the drums about reincarnation and 84 Lakh joons as their blind faith without understanding or giving it a deeper thought about what Gurbani says about it. They pick up a couple of verses of the Shabad while ignoring the rest of it and sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus', which is a sad thing to notice.

Both these concepts are derived from Hinduism and our Gurus have acknowledged what Hindus believed in. The following Shabad by Bhagat Ravidas needs to be understood rather than used as the end justifying the means of their obstinacy on this blind faith which has nothing to do with Sikhi.



> Bhagat Ravidas ji
> 
> ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥
> बहुत जनम बिछुरे थे माधउ इहु जनमु तुम्हारे लेखे ॥
> ...


 
We all know that Bhagat Ravidas belonged to the Chamar caste which is the lowest of the lowest caste in Hinduism. No matter how many times a Chamar is born in a Chamar family, he/she remains a chamar. Bhagat Ravidas was not even allowed to enter the temple to worship.

While being aware of his birth in a low caste family with  no way out in Hinduism, he finally found Ik Ong Kaar within who is Nirbhau and Nirvair and realised that despite his birth and destiny decided by the Hindu caste system which believes in reincarnation and no matter which 84 lakh joons he would come in, but as a human he shall remain a Chamar whose even shadow was disdained by the stiff upper lipped Brahmins.

So, this Shabad can be interpreted and looked  into through many different Gurmat angles if we do not try to step on our own toes by justifying the ends through the means and trying to prove a belief which is acknowledged by Sikhi but at the same time, Gurbani has given us the tools how to get rid of this silly mindset.

Tejwant Singh


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## Satyaban (Aug 31, 2009)

Tejwant ji

When you said "sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus' which is a sad thing to notice." were you suggesting that the translators did not know what they were doing or that their translations were not honest and straight?

I do not speak Punjabi nor do I know your scriptures, although I joined SPN because of my belief that we shared much in common, so I put my trust in you when I ask what English word or words would you have used instead of "incarnations" which appears to be accepted by many?

Thanking you in advance.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

japjisahib04 said:


> Tejwant Ji,
> Nirvair does not mean he let you harm His creation. That is why guru sahib says Puni paapi akhan naheh - virtures and vice are not mere words for us to say, all deeds done with utmost concentration blended together with mind and body are recorded instantly- what we do so shall we reap.
> 
> Best regards
> ...


 

Mohinder ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am a bit confused by your response above. Who is harming whom here? Please read  my original post to Kaur-1 ji regarding the picture to find the response. What does Nirvair mean according to you in Mool manter? Please elaborate it.

We all know Ik Ong Kaar is neither unfair nor unjust, however humans are unfair and unjust and this child in the picture is the typical example of that. 

IK Ong Kaar is sans duality. If you disagree with that, please share your thoughts regarding it.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 31, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> When you said "sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus' which is a sad thing to notice." were you suggesting that the translators did not know what they were doing or that their translations were not honest and straight?
> 
> ...


 
Satayban ji,

Guru Fateh.

I do not know whether you are aware or not that Gurbani is written in a poetic form which requires interpretation to change it into prose so one can grasp the true message of the writer.

Literal translation means words translated literally into another langauge while disregarding what the author is trying to convey in the original language , especially when it is written in a poetic form.

Most of the literal translations of SGGS are poor because either they are done emulating archaic biblical language of thy, thou etc. etc or they are done by people who lack either English skills or Gurmukhi skills.

If a person who does not know the language nor the scriptures, then it becomes a shot in the dark in a very superficial manner which does not do any justice to the  beautiful scriptures called SGGS, but rather to the contrary.

So, I am sorry to say that your question about one word "incarnation" in the interpretation of the whole Shabad bears no relevance.

Tejwant Singh.

PS: Thanks for asking the question. Please feel free to ask as many as you wish to in order to understand Gurbani and under the same token, never feel reluctant to respond to the questions asked to you as well. This is the only way people can interact and the whole essence of interacting is in the curiosity to learn which requires asking questions.


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## Satyaban (Sep 1, 2009)

Tejwant ji

So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?

 Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone.

I can not enter a discourse about your scriptures, my interest was in your opinion of the translators and maybe improvements you could make.

As always peace
Satyaban


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## Inder singh (Sep 1, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> *Dear all, (my apologies for an off-topic reply in this topic's context but it was important)
> 
> So, you are a new member? :welcome: My apologies, but before i deactivate your triplicate memberships at SPN one more time... i have to keep public aware of  people like you and your gang headed by inder singh...
> 
> For the benefit of entire readership, raj11 is none other than  juvenile member 'Singh' from Canada, who had publicly displayed his inability to indulge in any dialogue on any issue in hand and bragged about never posting or even visiting SPN... and who along with Inder singh and his gang, shamelessly, did tried to run a miserably failed propaganda campaigns against SPN in direct conspiracy/conjunction with Juvenile forums likes SikhSangat.com and SikhAwareness.com...  ...is still loitering around SPN... and now he posts through his triplicate ids and proclaims he is new member here... shows your character...  ... it is pertinent to inform you all  members here that,  recently, he had again visited SPN and quite shamelessly spit venom against the administration in their public profiles (the content were too objectionable to mention here, only a per.vert person can think or write like this... and so we had to deactivate his original account (Singh) but he then create another id inder10 yesterday and now he has created his third id. raj11... and he thinks we would not know...  Sorry, but i had to write this obituary for you... RIP*



Do not talk nonsense. Being owner of this site display some maturity. I do not belong to any gang. I do not write on your site. please spare my name being dragged into your dirty politics.


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## spnadmin (Sep 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Do not talk nonsense. Being owner of this site display some maturity. I do not belong to any gang. I do not write on your site. please spare my name being dragged into your dirty politics.



Inder Singh ji

Before judging the maturity of another forum member, consider the value of facts and truthfulness to your credibility. Our statistics indicate that you have posted 511 times since July 2, 2008. That works out to slightly more than 1 post a day in the past year and 28 days. 

Our eye-witness readings of posts on SikhAwareness in particular indicate that you have enjoined various other members of that forum to collaborate with you in a dishonest game of  flaming across forum boundaries, badly slandering our admin, leaders, mentors and forum members for nothing more than  open discussion.

You can try to blow me off with overbearing and patronizing rejoinders. The forum won't buy it.


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## Inder singh (Sep 1, 2009)

naryanjot kaur ji

I used to write here but since i left i did not write anymore. Neither i associate with any of the  member here after i left. 

I get information letter from your site and i do visit it sometimes. i am astonished to note that my name is being falsely implicated as a leader of some gang. That is the reason i have replied to that.


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## spnadmin (Sep 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> naryanjot kaur ji
> 
> I used to write here but since i left i did not write anymore. Neither i associate with any of the  member here after i left.
> 
> I get information letter from your site and i do visit it sometimes. i am astonished to note that my name is being falsely implicated as a leader of some gang. That is the reason i have replied to that.



*
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/25684-slander-of-dasam-granth-religious-fanaticism.html*


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## kds1980 (Sep 1, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Gyani ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji

It is not some people Even people like Dr.Sahib whose teeka is considered one of the best to understand Gurbani mentioned about reincarnation in His interpretations of shabad.


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## lotus lion (Sep 1, 2009)

Hi Gyani Ji,

I appreciate that you are having multiple conversations, but my perception is that you are avoiding me.

Incase you missed my post (Edited for Clarity):



> Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,
> 
> I think it is fair to say that you do not believe in reincarnation.
> 
> ...


 
There is a lot of white noise around this issue that does not have anything to do with this thread.

I would appreciate getting to the crux of the matter and taking things from there.

My best regards,

Lotus


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 1, 2009)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> It is not some people Even people like Dr.Sahib whose teeka is considered one of the best to understand Gurbani mentioned about reincarnation in His interpretations of shabad.




Kanwardeep Ji,

Guru fateh.

Of course reincarnation is mentioned in the Shabads. Our Gurus did acknowledge the existence of this belief in Gurbani. No one has denied that, and I agree with you that  Dr. Sahib's teeka is the best so far because it is not done in a literal translation manner but he has interpreted it to the best of his knowledge.

Would you be kind enough to post  the whole  Shabad you have in mind, its english interpretation in your words alongwith  Dr. Sahib's, so we can all discuss and learn from it?

Thanks


Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 1, 2009)

Satayban ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:



> So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?


I am a bit puzzled by your question. My explanation is self explanatory. I urge you to read it again. And I did not understand why use hard words like HACKS to express yourself? I have no idea what you have in mind or what your agenda is. Please express yourself what you would really like to know.

Now, I have a question for you. Who wrote Shiva ji's story and when was it written? Is there any documented proof of it? I hope you do not ignore to respond to these questions as you have done in the past. As mentioned, a fair interaction can only occur if and when asked, one expects the response as you expected from me.




> Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone.


Satayban ji,

Once again, it seems you have ignored to see my response before writing the above. I have no idea what you mean by "but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone". No one is accusing you of doing anything wrong, at least not me in my post. It is irrelevant whether you are alone or not and what kind of assurance does one need when one or more are wrong about the same thing? When we talk about interpreting the whole Shabad in a different language, parsing one or 2 words becomes meaningless and irrelevant in the discussion.

You have repeated many times in your posts that you find commonalities in what you think and what Sikhi is about, however under the same breath you, yourself admit, you have no idea what Gurbani says. So what ever commonalities you may try to seek can not happen without you knowing about Gurbani. So, in other words your claim is self contradictory based on nothing but superficiality and some preconceived ideas.



> I can not enter a discourse about your scriptures, my interest was in your opinion of the translators and maybe improvements you could make.


I beg to differ with you on your above claim. Of course, you can enter into a discourse about SGGS and they are not MY scriptures by the way. They are for all humanity to savour.  That is the reason the writings by people from other faiths like Hinduism and Islam, besides our Gurus' are in SGGS, our ONLY GURU. This would only occur and which is the true way to interact and find commonalities, if you studied Gurbani rather than throwing darts in the dark in a  very superficial manner.

I would suggest  that you   study the interpretation of Jap ji by Amarpal Singh ji which is excellent. He is also  interpreting  Sukhmani Sahib which you should study as well. There are many great essays by Gyani Arshi ji, by Dr. I. J Singh, Dr. Dps Singh and many others in this forum.  Just use the SEARCH icon and start your journey. After having done that then you may actually find commonalities in Sikhi with your own spiritual journey and many more questions to ask and to answer.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Satyaban (Sep 1, 2009)

Tejwant ji

I am most happy to see your response. I was having a rather slow day doing very little really and then:happy: there was your post. I filled a bowl of tortilla chips and ran to the store for a bottle of Mountain Dew and have my Newports at the ready, vices all. But let us get to the matters at hand and stay on topic.

Good God man can't a person agree with you. I said "Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone." I was agreeing with you about looking at one word taken out of context and not considering a poet's freedom, if a person writes poetically they are a poet to me. I threw in that subordinate clause so we don't get into parsing words.

I Said "So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?"

I said this because you were the one being critical of translations, translators, interpretations I don't know maybe the whole lot. I still expect that Sikh translators are wise and knowledgeable and don't rely on "Sikhism for Dummies" or translations by the Pope. Sarcasm. From the tone of your conversations I was ready to hear you say "I am the man for the job."

I don't think I am hard to understand. When I use a word I expect the reader to understand that I am applying definition number 1 not number 3. Before I would do that I would find a more fitting word. You say I don't respond to questions, in a way you are correct. I don't respond to questions that are not applicable to the topic, questions about statements I believe are clear enough and don't wish to be side tracked as we are now.

I mean for **** sake I made a statement about having some things in common with Sikhi and you remarked on that. So to make that crystal clear for you I believed those commonalities to be karma and reincarnation.

Now to get back on this topic you certainly appeared to me to take a position that you rejected reincarnation but don't bother to ask why because it is plain enough and I won't answer.

However when presented with a post by Kanwardeep ji you seem to be back pedalling. In previous posts you had a problem with people quoting the word "reincarnation". So don't ask me about that either just read your own post.

Now if you want to have a discussion about the topic or ideas that is fine. However, I am not going to entertain lengthy posts with multiply questions on the periphery of the topic. I don't enjoy it nor do I see anything useful to come of it so there is no point.

So my question to you is how do you come down the topic of reincarnation so we all know?

Peace
Satyaban

P.S. I started this post I don't know around 1pm and have been interrupted many times and lost text several times and it is now 2:30am. I am tired and not going to reread this post. Spell check and that's it.


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## kaur-1 (Sep 1, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kanwardeep Ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh ji, are you saying that you do accept reincarnation? FYI some are denying this fact.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 1, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> Tejwant Singh ji, are you saying that you do accept reincarnation? FYI some are denying this fact.



Kaur-1 ji,

Guru Fateh.

It seems you have not read my posts about my view regarding reincarnation and 84 lakh joons in this thread. I urge you to do that.

Reincarnation is a belief and as mentioned in my posts in this very thread, that beliefs can change anytime and also mentioned that Sikhi is not considered by me as a belief system.

There is a  vast difference between acknowledgment and acceptance and our Gurus acknowledged the existence of this belief in Hinduism. They also gave us the tools through Gurbani how to get rid of this senseless belief  in the pragmatic life of a Sikh.


Tejwant Singh


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## Satyaban (Sep 2, 2009)

Tejwant ji

Let me rephrase the question. Do you or do you not accept reincarnation as a factor in our existence?

Peace
Satyaban


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## harbansj24 (Sep 2, 2009)

Satyaban ji,

You would have noticed that that there is wide variation of opinion on this aspect. This is because reincarnation is only incidental or tangential to our existence as per Sikh philosophy.

Our focus is only the present birth and the aim is very clear. That is to strive to attain submergence in HIM. 

We do not have to know, bother or worry about our past Karams or Births because we will not be able to know or understand it. It is futile to fret about the perceived rewards or punishments in some future Janams or paying for the past Karams in the present Janam.

Submergence in HIM can be attained by making the soul blemish less. And the natural aim of the soul is to unite with the Creator. If it is not able attain it in the present vehicle and it has to continue its journey in next vehicle, then so be it!

Guru Nanak ji's philosophy is aimed  to rid mankind of unnecessary "bharams" and to make the path to him easier and simpler.

_We should not regress by getting caught in  complicated webs which are impossible to untangle._


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 2, 2009)

lotus lion said:


> Hi Gyani Ji,
> 
> I appreciate that you are having multiple conversations, but my perception is that you are avoiding me.
> 
> ...



Lotus Lion ji..
I will get back to you...am in the process of answering you on what i beleive sggs says.. please be patient..i know you are..
Warm regards


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2009)

harbansj24 said:


> Satyaban ji,
> 
> You would have noticed that that there is wide variation of opinion on this aspect. This is because reincarnation is only incidental or tangential to our existence as per Sikh philosophy.
> 
> ...



harbhansj ji 

Once the famous physicist and astronomer Carl Sagan challenged the Dalai Lama during a television program, saying: if science were to disprove reincarnation, what would Tibetan Buddhism do. And the Dalai Lama responded: If science disproved reincarnation, then Tibetan Buddhism would have to get rid of the idea of reincarnation. But to disprove reincarnation would be mighty hard to do.  He is saying, how do you prove it, how do you disprove it? Guru Nanak has said, We don't know.

Often I have found myself groping for words to express my own views clearly on the topic of this thread. You have done it for me. There is no way to "prove" or "disprove." And the path that Guru Nanak, and all Nanaks took, was to move the discussion to the "next level" so to speak and to seek "the precious jewel."

I appreciate your words because they put things into perspective and relieve both doubt and guilt.


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## manbir (Sep 2, 2009)

I am worried about my present. I do not know my previous birth and have no chance to know my next birth. Humans would have known of their past and future if The Almighty wanted to give this capacity to the human beings. But we know that He by His supreme Will decided not to bestow the Humans this sense. 

My Guru tells me that Waheguru Ji has given me this human form and this is a chance for me to meet my Creator. 
Guru tells me not to miss this chance. My Guru has tried His level best giving so many examples and in a language that I 'may' understand telling me to make use of this human form to meet my Creator. 

He tells me this is the only chance. My Guru tells me to lift myself spiritually to attain the the strength to merge with that being who created me. 

The Creator has given this ability to the Humans. But we need to follow our Guru. 

I am not worried about Reincarnation.


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## harbansj24 (Sep 2, 2009)

Narayanjot ji,

Neither I am a profound thinker nor a very articulate person. And I will never tire of saying that the works of Bhai Vir Singh ji have put the words in my mouth. His works are a huge hidden treasure waiting to be explored and getting enriched.

They are sure to change the lives of all who read them. I just started reading them a couple of years back and they have made a huge, huge difference to me.

_They can lift one from depths of despair to heights of Chardi Kalan!_


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 2, 2009)

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the lengthy post which I enjoy but sadly you have shown disliking for it. I do appreciate you making efforts though. Length of a post is not important. It is in the content. 

FYI,  SGGS is 1429 pages.

Your initial  response to the post was a one liner which gave me the impression that you were dedicating your time in studying about Sikhi in order to find true commonalities. But today, to my pleasant surprise, it has more content in it which I am glad to interact with.

You write:



> Good God man can't a person agree with you. I said "Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone." I was agreeing with you about looking at one word taken out of context and not considering a poet's freedom, if a person writes poetically they are a poet to me. I threw in that subordinate clause so we don't get into parsing words.


But your question about one word "reincarnation" was about parsing the whole literal translation with just this word rather than understanding the whole Shabad which you admittedly said you do not know as you have never studied Gurbani.



> I Said "So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?"
> 
> I said this because you were the one being critical of translations, translators, interpretations I don't know maybe the whole lot. I still expect that Sikh translators are wise and knowledgeable and don't rely on "Sikhism for Dummies" or translations by the Pope. Sarcasm.


Satayban ji, Once you start studying Gurbani then you will be able to understand my explanation. Once again, you are throwing darts in the air in a superficial manner. So, please start doing your homework as I said before, Gurbani is for all humanity to savour. I have no idea why you feel reluctant to trying to study. One has to get to the ground to play ball, not sitting on the fence. Knowledge is everyone's friend.




> From the tone of your conversations I was ready to hear you say "I am the man for the job."


I am sorry to disappoint you. It seems you claim to know more about others than about yourself. I did give the names of the people who have interpreted Gurbani in this very forum. Why don't you give it a shot? And one more piece of advice, please leave you Newport cigarettes somewhere else, wash your hands when you start studying Gurbani. One can start the inner cleansing by cleaning the outer first.



> I don't think I am hard to understand. When I use a word I expect the reader to understand that I am applying definition number 1 not number 3. Before I would do that I would find a more fitting word.


Pardon my ignorance, as in the past when I have not understood what you meant,I asked you questions, which sadly you refused to answer. Your expectation from my side may be much greater than my own capacity, so that is the reason I ask questions. Otherwise there is no need for any questioning.



> You say I don't respond to questions, in a way you are correct. I don't respond to questions that are not applicable to the topic, questions about statements I believe are clear enough and don't wish to be side tracked as we are now.


You above claim is interesting to say the least which one can also take it as a cop out because when you, yourself ask questions, you expect them to be responded and interaction is a 2 way street, just in case you were not aware of. Having said that, you have every right not to respond as you have done in the past. It says a lot about the person himself who only wants his questions answered. So, if you do not know the answers to my questions regarding your own faith, you can be honest enough to say you do not know. But once again, if you have any questions regarding Sikhi, please do not hesitate to ask. I will do my best to respond and if I am not able to, I will seek other members' help to do the same.



> I mean for **** sake I made a statement about having some things in common with Sikhi and you remarked on that. So to make that crystal clear for you I believed those commonalities to be karma and reincarnation.


You have made the statements about commonalities in many other threads besides this one which is OK. That is the reason you said you joined this forum. However, as mentioned before, without studying about Sikhi way of life,  then all becomes superficially mundane laced with preconceived notions, which in result become meaningless and irrelevant.



> Now to get back on this topic you certainly appeared to me to take a position that you rejected reincarnation but don't bother to ask why because it is plain enough and I won't answer.


You are right in your above statement. I have repeatedly said that based on Gurbani. And I have no idea why you expect me to ask you about something that I claim based on Gurbani. You can ask me anything regarding Sikhi, as mentioned before.



> However when presented with a post by Kanwardeep ji you seem to be back pedalling. In previous posts you had a problem with people quoting the word "reincarnation". So don't ask me about that either just read your own post


Your above statement seems quite misleading. Please specify where I have back pedalled and about what? I do not think you have read all my posts. I hope you respond to this accusation rather than avoiding it as you did  in the past.



> Now if you want to have a discussion about the topic or ideas that is fine. However, I am not going to entertain lengthy posts with multiply questions on the periphery of the topic. I don't enjoy it nor do I see anything useful to come of it so there is no point.


I am always ready for good interaction but as mentioned before, you have to be ready to respond when asked. so, the ball is in your court  and it has been there for quite sometime. And did I forget to say that I am enjoying this lengthy post of yours?! Please keep it up.



> So my question to you is how do you come down the topic of reincarnation so we all know?


I thought you knew the answer. Please read your own statement, once again:
*"Now to get back on this topic you certainly appeared to me to take a position that you rejected reincarnation but don't bother to ask why because it is plain enough and I won't answer".

*My response:<<You are right in your above statement. I have repeatedly said that based on Gurbani. You can ask me anything as mentioned before.>>


Any other questions? Please feel free to ask.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2009)

For what these thoughts are worth. The word "reincarnation" never appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. "Reincarnation" which means taking the form of flesh again is the usual translator's analogy for what is stated in Guruji as "coming and going" and "life and death, cycles of coming and going, cycles of life and death. These terms can be taken at face value to mean  the notion of having the 84 lakh joon (itself an ancient concept from pre Vedic times). Or these terms can be understood themselves as analogies, even metaphors, for a different kind of rebirth.

Or, Guru Nanak being highly literate and profound in his poetic talents may have indeed considered the power of metaphor to carry more than one level of meaning- at the same time within one phrase. More than one way for re-birthing of self, and a new way of thinking replacing the older way of considering the meaning of the metaphor. 

Just a weak theory. Forgive me.


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## Satyaban (Sep 2, 2009)

Namaste

I thank everyone for their posts because they have enabled me to have some understanding of Sikh thought on this topic. I think that as long as I keep my worship and yoga, behaving in thought and deed as harmlessly as I can all else will fall into place. It is all I can do.

 I was not born with a heightened God consciousness or into a spiritually advanced situation and believe my spiritual journey and evolution will not be a short one. I don't think I have caused anyone's death but I have indeed caused great harm to others and myself. I believe my best hope for liberation in this life is to die with Lord Shiva's name or "Om Namah Shivaya" on my lips or the long shot of being part of some miraculous event of Biblical proportions.OMG After reading that you may think I find rebirth as a relief valve or something but no I consider it a loving God's grace. Reincarnation does not guide my life which would lead to acts that appear beneficial to others but done really for selfish reasons and expectations attached to them as opposed to being selfless as our service should be.

For me to believe moksha is possible for me when this body gives up I must also believe that my past incarnation or two must have been damned exceptional.

So anyway I am merely stating my view and understanding on this topic. I am neither so rude or so ignorant to entertain the thought of influencing anyone.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Admin (Sep 2, 2009)

*Dear all, there is simply no question of one member influencing another, its all about learning and evolving...  

Relax and enjoy!! :welcome:
*


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## lotus lion (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi Gyani Ji,

Np at all, please get back as soon as you can.

Thanks,

Lotus



> Lotus Lion ji..
> I will get back to you...am in the process of answering you on what i beleive sggs says.. please be patient..i know you are..
> Warm regards


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## onspjo (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

MSS ji(JAPJISAHIB04),
 I agree with you. It is because of desires that we come and go. The use of Karmi aawe kapra nadri mokh dwar tells that it is because of karma that you come/wear a kapra(body,joon,human life) and only with the grace of God, will you see the door of moksha. It is our conscious(chitr) and subconscious(gupt) that keep the records and then we are given whatever joon to clear the accounts(fulfill desires).

GJSji, I do agree that we can not tell how many joons are there as only He knows the numbers. But I do not believe that you get human life once or you do not go in any other joon.

In Sukhmani Sahib, it is written that ANIK JON JANAMA MAR JAAM, NAAM JAPAT PAWEH BISRAAM. It is clearly stated that you go thru many joons.

WHY is HUMAN LIFE PRECIOUS? IT is after many joons(See above) that you get a human life. Why is it DURLABH and why is in human life your turn(chance) to meet gobind?

Because it is only in human form that you can learn what lobh, moh, ahankar, kaam, krodh, ego is and it is only in human form that you can learn to rid yourself of these and JAP NAAM. Only a human has the capacity(physical ang) of realizing the dasam dwar, hearing the anhad nad and more(you know what I am getting at). THAT is one of the reasons one should not mess with the body parts(piercing, cutting hair etc.) as most parts of the body play some part and are instrumental in the whole process of realization. In any other joon, you can not do that. That is why human form is your chance to be one with GOd.

That is my understanding and I truly believe it from the bani only. 
Please forgive as I am a beginner only. Bhul chuk maaf karni and please correct me too if my understanding is wrong.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 17, 2011)

Japjisahib04 is a SARDAR JI.:redturban:


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## onspjo (Jan 17, 2011)

MSS is for (Mohinder Singh Sahni) not MISS ). That is how he signed in his post.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2011)

Sikh pyario and spners, please read the following article if you have not already done so written by a brilliant person,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/34243-five-reasons-you-wont-die.html

With the help of the above article we can basically say the following,


Albert Einstein said "Now Besso has departed from this strange world a  little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us...know that the  distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly  persistent illusion."


Although bodies self-destruct, the "me'' feeling is just a 20-watt cloud of energy in your head.


Death doesn't exist in any real sense in these scenarios. All possible  universes exist simultaneously, regardless of what happens in any of  them.


You will live on through your children, friends, and all who you touch  during your life, not only as part of them, but through the histories  you collapse with every action you take.


Your consciousness will always be in the present -- balanced between the  infinite past and the indefinite future -- moving intermittently  between realities along the edge of time, having new adventures and  meeting new (and rejoining old) friends.
Another way of saying all of the above is that there are infinity of worlds, infinity of universes with skies and earths and somewhere out there the duality continues to play,

*There are no boundaries in the infinite universe or time and we are alive and dead at the same time*​
Based on developing dialog I will contribute accordingly and don't want to monopolize through a longer post at this time.

*Simple test:* 



Close your eyes and imagine you are with Baba Nanak ji and you say to him,  " Baba ji manoo re-incarnate kar deo" (Baba Nanak ji I want to be re-incarnated). 



When I do that Baba Nanak says to me, "Puttar kadin soul ve mardi.  Teri shakal soorat varge te aondey jande sadah", (Son, does soul ever die!  People looking like you have been around, are around and will be around in the universe(s)).
 
YouTube        - Gurdas Mann - uchadar babe nanak da.flv

I ask no more questions till the next time.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

Ambarsariaji

It is good to hear that you were so moved by that article. It is also hard sometimes to know which articles posted in Interfaith dialogs will strike a cord with our members and readers. I personally do not always know what to make of the author Dr. Lanza and his theory of everything. That particular article, Five Reasons Why You Won't Die, however did pull together many themes of many discussions here at SPN. And just a quick read reminded me that when we have been with a dying person, accompanying them as far as we can and until we say good-bye, that much of what Dr. Lanza describes is very real.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2011)

spnadmin ji just a personal comment on your line in the post above,
"And just a quick read reminded me that when we have been with a dying  person, accompanying them as far as we can and until we say good-bye, ..."

I had one such experience when my father passed away.  He was sick and in a Hospital in India.  He told us his time has come.  He was in Charrdi Kalaa (high spirits).  

I went there to help as well as I could regardless.  

We were with him day and night.  I was there the night before he passed away.  It was 3AM and he called my name saying he was hungry.  I sat him in a chair and made burkis (piece of chappati) and dipped these in Sagh to feed him.  He told me he had not had such a nice meal for the longest time and showed his love to me.  At around 7AM he calls me and says I should go home and rest as I have been up all night.  So my brother-in-law came over to help for the day.  I had not even reached home in rickshaw that I was told he passed away.  This happened to be his last meal.  I can vividly recall the setting.  Did part of his soul get absorbed in mine at that time from him, perhaps.  And may be the others did too.

Few hours later we were in a Jeep taking his body home to Amritsar as I held on to his limbs so the body was secure.  Rigor mortis has already set in.  We did the cremation and Akhand Path starting the next day.

As we go through life's minutes, hours and days many philosophical concepts actually become near real.
​Sat Sri Akal.


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 21, 2012)

_




_

*English Translation:* 
Shalok, Third Mehl: Without serving the True Guru, the soul is in the bondage of deeds done in ego. Without serving the True Guru, one finds no place of rest; he dies, and is reincarnated, and continues coming and going. Without serving the True Guru, one's speech is vapid and insipid; the Naam, the Name of the Lord, does not abide in his mind. O Nanak, without serving the True Guru, they are bound and beaten in the City of Death; they arise and depart with blackened faces. ||1|| First Mehl: Burn away those rituals which lead you to forget the Beloved Lord. O Nanak, sublime is that love, which preserves my honor with my Lord Master. ||2|| Pauree: Serve the One Lord, the Great Giver; meditate on the One Lord. Beg from the One Lord, the Great Giver, and you shall obtain your heart's desires. But if you beg from another, then you shall be shamed and destroyed. One who serves the Lord obtains the fruits of his rewards; all of his hunger is satisfied. Nanak is a sacrifice to those, who night and day, meditate within their hearts on the Name of the Lord. ||10||


​



*Punjabi Translation:* 
_





:happysingh:_


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## Satyaban (Feb 21, 2012)

Beautiful thread, my wife was in my arms when she gave up that life.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 21, 2012)

Veer Amarjit Singh Bamrah ji the following is wrong translation,



> Without serving the True Guru, one finds no place of rest; he dies, and is reincarnated, and continues coming and going.



Let us review the Sabad again as below,

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Salok mėhlā 3. 
Shalok, Third Mehl: 
ਸਲੋਕ ਤੀਜੀ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ। 
xxx
xxx

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve jī▫a ke banḏẖnā vicẖ ha▫umai karam kamāhi. 

ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝ ਕੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਦੇ ਆਸਰੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਉਹ ਕਰਮ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਤਮਾ ਲਈ ਬੰਧਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
_Without serving the eternal creator, deeds done with ego become restraining shackles._
_
_
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਠਉਰ ਨ ਪਾਵਹੀ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve ṯẖa▫ur na pāvhī mar jamėh āvahi jāhi. 
ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਗੈਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਆਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। ਉਹ ਮਰਦਾ, ਮੁੜ ਜੰਮਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। 
ਠਉਰ = ਟਿਕਾਣਾ, ਇਸਥਿਤੀ, ਭਟਕਣ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ।
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਕਾਰ ਨਾ ਕਰਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਤੇ ਥਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ, ਉਹ ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਫੇਰ) ਜੰਮਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ) ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਫੇਰ) ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
_Without serving the eternal creator, there is no steadiness; death, birth, come and go._


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਫਿਕਾ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve fikā bolṇā nām na vasai man māhi. 
ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਦੇ ਬਾਝੋਂ ਫਿਕਲੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਬੰਦੇ ਦੀ ਬੋਲ ਚਾਲ, ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਟਿਕਦਾ। 
xxx
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੇ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਬੋਲ ਭੀ ਫਿੱਕੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ 'ਨਾਮ' ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ।
_Without serving the eternal creator, empty deliberations and understanding does not stick in mind._

ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਬਧੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਨਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
Nānak bin saṯgur seve jam pur baḏẖe mārī▫an muhi kālai uṯẖ jāhi. ||1|| 
ਨਾਨਕ, ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਦੇ ਬਗੈਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ, ਸਿਆਹ ਚਿਹਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਖੜੇ ਹੋ ਟੁਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਹਿਰ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਰੜ ਕੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਪਿੱਟੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ = ਕਾਲੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਨਾਲ, ਮੁਕਾਲਖ ਖੱਟ ਕੇ ॥੧॥
ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕਾਲੇ-ਮੂੰਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੋਂ) ਤੁਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇਜਮਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੱਧੇ ਹੋਏ ਮਾਰ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਇਸ ਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਮੁਕਾਲਖ ਖੱਟਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇਅਗਾਂਹ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ) ॥੧॥
_Nanak, without serving the eternal creator, these end punished tied down and leave with a blackened face._
*ESSENCE:*  Guru ji explain the concept of serving the creator and understanding the same.  Deeds done with ego, shallowness just lead to misery, restrained living and legacy devoid of achievement.

All errors are mine and I stand corrected.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

We can learn from Gurbanee that there are two concepts 
One is that of "Transformation " from one form to another and 
The other is that of " Incarnation"

Both concepts are valid.There is no negation of these two concepts but we are missing the context in understanding.
When We see the reference of 84 lac Joos like that this is related to the concept of "Transformation" and this can not be ruled out.For this we need to understand Gurbanee more in depth to extract the validity of the concept.

The process of transformation can be looked like this.Thru the knowledge of Science 
it ihas been possible to give different shapes and form to any ELEMENT.Even man has succeded in converting Coal (lowest form of Carbon) into Diamond(Highest Form  of Carbon).This transformation is man made.

So why it is not possiblle the transformation of different forms per se by THE ULTIMATE CREATOR.

Now theconcept of INCARNATION in Gurbanee is related to as the complete transformation of the thought process perfectly alligned with ULTIMATE CREATOR.
This transformation is related to human form and that is why HUMAN FORM is the most Wonderful and Desired form.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 21, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
Both translations are correct but one posted by Amarjit Singh ji is closer to Prof Sahib Singh's Teeka than yours is. And Prof Sahib Singh is more accurate to the the Gurmukhi than you. 

I have noticed that even though you use Prof Sahib Singh's teeka you don't stick to it. It's not much of a problem in any particular case but if you continue making small deviations from it, in the end you will be very far away.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 22, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Both translations are correct but one posted by Amarjit Singh ji is closer to Prof Sahib Singh's Teeka than yours is. And Prof Sahib Singh is more accurate to the the Gurmukhi than you.
> 
> I have noticed that even though you use Prof Sahib Singh's teeka you don't stick to it. It's not much of a problem in any particular case but if you continue making small deviations from it, in the end you will be very far away.


Bhagat Singh ji I don't make Punjabi Translations.  Those are from Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Prof. Sahib Singh ji.  I am using my head between all three that I see when I translate (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, Bhai Manmohan Sing, Prof. Sahib Singh).  At any given time I am going to differ from all.  I generally follow Prof. Sahib Singh ji and then Bhai Manmohan Singh ji.  Rarely I use Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's translation of Punjabi.  Some time for Synonym variety for certain words.

It is great to see a young man throwing pebbles at no matter what and how one does.  I am not riding a train to get mis-directed where translations are accumulative.  Translations are scrutinized by me for each word, line and sabad with the sources the best I can.  It will be wonderful to see you do some and I promise not to throw stones.  Of course it is always easier and convenient to throw stones (yours are little pebbles) rather than put yourself in a position to be challenged.  We are all different and there is perhaps a reason.

I am trolling a little bit of the Sanatan crowded space in couple of threads as I see them descend in flocks for certain posts only and usually in support of anti-Sikhism myths that have been debunked by Guru ji and such people are trying to link back.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

Bhagat Veer Ji

I think a large part of understanding Bani is to cross reference with your heart and inner feelings, as a wise man once said, 'Luke, trust the force...', If one were to stick to a teeka, instead of using it for guidance, then what exactly is the point of study and learning, we may as well just post established teeka's instead.

For the record, given the background and roots of reincarnation, I do not believe the first Master would laud such a concept, however it is ambiguous enough to address the issues of the time, and way beyond that.

A good teacher helps you learn, helps you understand, rather than giving you the answers on a platter......


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 22, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
Do you want a hug?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 22, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Do you want a hug?


Veer Bhagat Singh ji I will always pat you on the back as a young man.  Last time a very friendly younger person gave me a pretty surprise and strong hug.  My ribs were bruised and painful for a few months as ribs shifted.  So I ain't going to go for a hug.  Your contributions, comments (positive/negative) are a form of hug.

Thanks and have a great evening.

Sat Sri Akla.


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## Satyaban (Feb 22, 2012)

"I am trolling a little bit of the Sanatan crowded space in couple of threads as I see them descend in flocks for certain posts only and usually in support of anti-Sikhism myths that have been debunked by Guru ji and such people are trying to link back."


Well my goodness ji aren't you ignorant "ji"

Its because of people like you that I don't come here.


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## Luckysingh (Feb 22, 2012)

Gurfateh

I will be frank, there are times when I spot an interesting thread and then while i'm getting into it alot of members have steered away into another lane for another issue.
Thus the original title is still unanswered. 

Being frank, I believe there is a 'concept for reincarnation in sikhism'.
This concept is quite different to how other religions portray their own concepts.

To say that no reincarnation concept exists in sikhism, I think is a very narrow minded view.
Being quite frank and honest here, a lot of subjects and WHY's. IF's and HOW's that we all question actually don't make any sense to my personal beliefs if I throw the reincarnation concept out.

I personally do not understand how all these simulataneous events are occuring in the universe if they were no concept and maintenance of balance.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

I firmly believe in no reincarnation, anything else would shake my entire faith, however, to each his own, let us try and concentrate on what binds us, not divides us


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

Satyabanji

I have much respect for Hindus, and Hindu philosophy, however, I and many others find it counter productive when our Sikh brothers and sisters embrace these philosophies as Sikh. They are not Sikh, they are Hindu, and very fine philosophies they are, but nonetheless, Hindu ones.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 22, 2012)

The LAWS of NATURE..are awsome beyond awsome....simultaneous is actually a very very tiny speck of a word to describe the zillions upon zillions of "happenings" happening..ALL IN HIS HUKM..HUKM means LAW...The Law of HUKM. Scientists using tiny "instruments " like the Hubble telescope are just scratching the surface and finding out just how AWSOME and SIMULTANEOUS His actions are throughout the Brahmaand.....Only a BRAHM-Gyaanwaan can understand this..and that is Only HIM...

GURBANI is for the LIVING HUMAN..thats why GURBANI keeps on REPEATING HOW the HUMAN BODY is CREATED..how it FUNCTIONS..how it DIES..and what happens to this DEAD BODY........ever wondered WHY this ENDLESS HARPING on the PHYSICAL BODY ?? while all other religions are harping on the heavenly rewards and hells punishments...????
Brahmins and Pujarees CREATED all those beleifs in the afterwards..to ENRICH THEMSELVES....why did GURU NANAK travel all the way to hardwaar to THROW WATER TO THE WEST..when EACH PERSON among the millions gathered were throwing water to the EAST ?? Was this "karamkaand" that vital ?? NO. The clear intention of GURU Nanak ji was to DISPELL any "DOUBTS" that there were OTHER WORLDS where the DEAD DEPARTED SOULS were dying of THIRST !! The idea was to DENY any such "Pittars" existed..ever...and SIMPLY BECAUSE later on SIKHS of GURU NANAK could NOT discard this "false beleif" in PITTARS..that we have Akhand paaths and sehaj paath bhogs and b{censored}es and bhandeh, bisterehs, langgars, saaradhs etc etc being DONE....exactly what the BRAHMIN used to do..Sikh granthis do today...they eat saraadhs..they eat langgars and they do FALSE ardasses supposed to reach the DEAD ???  Does any one think GURU NANAK JI would ever do such an ARDASS ??  are there PITTARS and do our ardasses reach them..do they use the beddings we send them ?? Do they FEED on the kheer and karrah we make for them ?? Guru jis visit to hardwaar is WASTED ON us becasue  we cannot throw out the RUBBISH GURU JI took to the TRASH CAN FOR US 500 years ago..we went out and took back each single ITEM of GARBAGE.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 22, 2012)

Harry ji,




harry haller said:


> I firmly believe in no reincarnation, anything else would shake my entire faith, however, to each his own, let us try and concentrate on what binds us, not divides us




We see that some Sikhs believe that reincarnation is a valid concept according to Sikh teachings and some say that it is not. So apparently people read into the scriptures what they like to read. 

I personally do not believe in reincarnation, but this is because I do not believe in the existence of anything substantial and lasting as in 'soul'. But I do believe that the consciousness which arose at birth and since then has conditioned uncountable number of consciousness to arise one after the other, does not end at what we conventionally identify as death of the individual, but continues the same way as some other being. 

You do not believe in reincarnation and I sense that you are not open to the kind of idea I've suggested above, either. But I'll ask you only in relation to the one, since I think that you do believe in a soul, why do you not believe in reincarnation?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 22, 2012)

Folks some thoughts for discourse.  The subject is soul as it goes without saying that any non-Christian will agree that the physical re-incarnation is not a concept to dwell too much energy on. 

The following,  not necessarily Gurbani or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based,

Some quotes I noted for self,


When you do things from your soul you feel a river moving in you, a joy.  When action comes from another section, the feeling disappears.  ~Rumi
 

 Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found _a_ truth."  Say not, "I have found the path of the soul."  Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."  For the soul walks upon all paths.  The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.  The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.  ~Kahlil Gibran, _The Prophet_, 1923
 

 What is soul?  It's like electricity - we don't really know what it is, but it's a force that can light a room.  ~Ray Charles
 

Living is being born slowly.  It would be a little too easy if we could borrow ready-made souls.  ~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, _Flight to Arras_, 1942
 

I simply believe that some part of the human Self or Soul is not subject to the laws of space and time.  ~Carl Jung
 

Good for the body is the work of the body, good for the soul the work of the soul, and good for either the work of the other.  ~Henry David Thoreau
 

Care I for the limb, the thews, the stature, bulk, and big assemblance of a man!  Give me the spirit.  ~William Shakespeare
 

Put your ear down close to your soul and listen hard.  ~Anne Sexton
 
  Cycles of Soul: Creation, Growth and its Death or Transformation into other Souls

  Soul is the inner self that is like a sounding board of impartiality within.  It sees you without clothes, it sees you without bias or ill will or animosity.  In our action we have a choice to go with what our soul tells us or decide otherwise.  In practical living, the actions you take in worldly matters do not always bring about the best outcome if you always follow your soul (me think!).

  Some point for philosophical discourse follow.

  Soul :


Is it something you are born with fully      developed?
You are born with a body and a baby soul in       it

Is it something you are born with that slowly      develops through life?
Your soul grows with your body

As it sees more of you without any cloak you       see it also as the truthful one which understands you whether you like it       or not

You can camouflage your way through the       world, you cannot fool your soul




Does your soul continues to be or dissipates      in other growing souls at death?
Your soul interacts with others through any       of the five senses and a sixth sense (soul’s independent processing       power)
Others interact with you and your soul       through their senses and souls
Your interactions with other souls diminish       but never die totally
Your soul is like a wave that diminishes over       time to almost nothingness in the Universe ocean but will forever       reverberate in a small measure somewhere

 

Does a soul never die then how are new souls      created as there are more people now than 20,000 years ago?
Souls never die and parts of them merge with       other souls and become part thereof.
Souls like entropy will always increase and       the new are created for ever with components of old and seeding of       biological processes



Does non-life has soul?
No it does not but everything is part of       oneness (Sikhism) and on earth soul like equivalents and souls can be expected       to be everywhere.



Can you trade your soul?
No you cannot.  Though, you are allowed to fool       yourself for sure.



In the      end, can you ever fool soul or not show its suppression?
Another       soul always has the capability to see your soul.
It is the sixth sense, it is inherent, it is unseen-unheard-untouched but still understood

    Now if all of the above can in part support re-incarnation then I need to dig further.  However if all of the above rules out re-incarnation, I also need to dig further.

Consonance is collective soul that we dip into and put things back into and it forever will prevail.  This is what I see in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji all the time the concept and recognition of consonance, its exposition and living in such understanding being fundamental.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

Confused said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Much food for thought, I read this just before going shopping and mused on it til I came back. I am glad to see my Veer Ambarsariaji has also given the matter thought.

after much thought, my present holding position is as follows:-

Life must be lived on the basis that there is no reincarnation and that the soul dissipates amongst those we love when we die, if there were to be any other outcome, well hey hoo, but the attitude whilst alive must be on the basis that death is final, anything else would be a bonus.

I do not wish to spend my life focusing on what happens after, it is unimportant and beyond my control, if we all knew for certain it would affect our entire attitude to living


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Folks some thoughts for discourse. The subject is soul as it goes without saying that any non-Christian will agree that the physical re-incarnation is not a concept to dwell too much energy on.
> 
> The following, not necessarily Gurbani or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based,
> 
> ...


 
mundahug


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

_




_

*English Translation:* 
Shalok: If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the Messenger of Death will have nothing to say to you. O Nanak, the mind and body will be at peace, and in the end, you shall merge with the Lord of the world. ||1|| Chhant: Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord! With my palms pressed together, I offer my prayer: give me Your Name, O Lord, Har, Har. I beg for the Lord's Name, and fall at His feet; I renounce my self-conceit, by Your kindness.
 I shall not wander anywhere else, but take to Your Sanctuary. O God, embodiment of mercy, have mercy on me. O all-powerful, indescribable, infinite and immaculate Lord Master, listen to this, my prayer. With palms pressed together, Nanak begs for this blessing: 

O Lord, let my cycle of birth and death come to an end.

 ||1|| I am a sinner, devoid of wisdom, worthless, destitute and vile. I am deceitful, hard-hearted, lowly and entangled in the mud of emotional attachment. I am stuck in the filth of doubt and egotistical actions, and I try not to think of death. In ignorance, I cling to the pleasures of woman and the joys of Maya. 

My youth is wasting away, old age is approaching, and Death, my companion, is counting my days. Prays Nanak, my hope is in You, Lord; please preserve me, the lowly one, in the Sanctuary of the Holy. 

||2|| I have wandered through countless incarnations, suffering terrible pain in these lives. 

I am entangled in sweet pleasures and gold. After wandering around with such great loads of sin, I have come, after wandering through so many foreign lands. Now, I have taken the protection of God, and I have found total peace in the Name of the Lord. God, my Beloved, is my protector; nothing was done, or will ever be done, by myself alone. I have found peace, poise and bliss, O Nanak; by Your mercy, I swim across the world-ocean. ||3|| You saved those who only pretended to believe, so what doubts should Your true devotees have? By every means possible, listen to the Praises of the Lord with your ears. Listen with your ears to the Word of the Lord's Bani, the hymns of spiritual wisdom; thus you shall obtain the treasure in your mind. 
Attuned to the Love of the Lord God, the Architect of Destiny, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. The earth is the paper, the forest is the pen and the wind is the writer, but still, the end of the endless Lord cannot be found. O Nanak, I have taken to the Sanctuary of His lotus feet. ||4||5||8||
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.




_amarjit_


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 23, 2012)

Harry ji,

I thought before switching off the computer last night, that you might refer to Ambarsaria ji’s ideas. ;-)

But I wonder whether these ideas were what you always believed in or that you only discovered and got attracted to them in the course of your stay here. Because if it is the latter, then your arguments will not carry as much weight. Therefore feel free to introduce anything else, and you can even drop this one if you like…… 





> Life must be lived on the basis that there is no reincarnation and that the soul dissipates amongst those we love when we die, if there were to be any other outcome, well hey hoo, but the attitude whilst alive must be on the basis that death is final, anything else would be a bonus.
> 
> I do not wish to spend my life focusing on what happens after, it is unimportant and beyond my control, if we all knew for certain it would affect our entire attitude to living



But you are nevertheless thinking in terms of the future, although here you do it in an attempt to justify a belief that you are comfortable with. Now I am not saying that thinking about the future is useful, but dwelling in thoughts about the past and the future will continue for those of us with little or no wisdom and this is regardless of what we believe in.  But I think what you are saying is that belief in reincarnation (in my case, rebirth) does in fact encourage thinking about the future and therefore best not to believe in it. 

What if I told you that proliferation of thought is motivated by wrong understanding, by clinging or by conceit? What if I added that this happens not only in relation to thoughts about the past and future but also the present? 

I'll state this for now and wait to see if you are interested in further discussion:

Belief in the continuation of distinct set of mental phenomena from one life to the next is based on a particular kind of observation about the here and now. In other words, if one were to make a correct observation / study of one's experience, the corollary of this is belief in past and future lives. This implies that any resistance to the belief must be due to some mistaken view about the way things are.   

One thing you need to note though and not misunderstand is that I am not talking about belief without understanding, but with understanding. Two, I distinguish between not believing but at the same time being open to the possibility, as against outright rejection due to being influenced by some underlying wrong understanding and holding other set of beliefs.


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## Kamala (Feb 23, 2012)

Oh, so I guess your going against the Gurdwaras now..


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## Harry Haller (Feb 23, 2012)

Kamala said:


> Oh, so I guess your going against the Gurdwaras now..



Kamalaji, 

In Sikhism mind reading is not something that we try and perfect, perhaps you could give us a hint to whom you are directing this at, and at which point

Having said that, I have no personal problem making my frustration clear at Gurdwaras that think involving Hindu traditions is in some way a forward move


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## Harry Haller (Feb 23, 2012)

Confusedji, 

I read your post with my wife next to me, and although she is not Sikh, I trust her internal compass, and find myself guided by her frequently when her thoughts are in tandem with what I believe to be Sikhi.

When I was in my 20's I had a strong belief in reincarnation, to the point where I embraced death as a release, and in fact flirted with it strongly as a means of strength, and as a show of contempt for life and its game, I viewed life as a card game, and had no fear of folding, the only issue was when exactly to fold, many times I tried to fold, but the game was not over, in the end, I rejected God, spirituality and reincarnation in its entirety and concentrated on the needs of others, I came back into Sikhism less than a year ago. One of the major attractions was that there was a place within Sikhism for all that I had learned, and I could call myself a Sikh again with some pride. I do no think the subject of reincarnation within Sikhism is a major issue, it is an extremely minor issue to me, but I do feel that life must be lived on the basis that this is the only chance We get to experience life in our current format, I am at peace with the concept of nothingness after death, however, I am of a mind that is open enough to accept that anything is possible, however it seems extremely important to live on the basis of accepted nothingness. 

I do think in terms of the future, and those thoughts are that life MUST be lived on the basis of finality, it is not to justify a belief, but to focus my energies on the here and now, on today, and not on some final outcome. 

It is interesting that you mention focusing on the past and future, this is something I have managed to distance myself from recently, but as with all my learning, it has not come solely from study, or wisdom, everything I know is the result of being burnt, I am not as wise as many on this forum, nor am I intelligent, I touch things, they burn, that is how I gain my education, and that is how I continue to gain my education. At present I have a dying dog whom I love very much, the experience is teaching me much, it saddens me that my dog has to die so that I may learn, but I feel I am absorbing everything he has learned through my interaction with him at present, although that may make me sound quite cold, it is the opposite, there must be some point to his life, and his death, I will not mourn him, he will be with me forever. 

It is not that rebirth encourages thinking about the future, it is more that it detracts from the present. 

If you told me that proliferation of thought is motivated by wrong understanding, also in the present, I would agree with you, and laud you for your ability to see that, and attempt to embrace it. 

Regarding your last two paragraphs, I would say that nothingness could also be viewed as a continuation, by its very nature nothingness could also be viewed as everythingness. 

As a Sikh it is important for me to live every day as the Creators apprentice, with qualities of Creator, qualities of the Gurus, when I do that successfully, I find myself in Mukti, I have a forcefield around me, and I feel in tune with Creator, feelings of detachment, a living death, and I believe 100% in what I am doing, and how I understand why I am doing it, I have to confess again that the whole subject of life after death seems unimportant while there is living to do. 

Confusedji, you are an intelligent man, I hope my attempt at discourse with you makes some sense

peacesign


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## Luckysingh (Feb 23, 2012)

Harryji

A very nice reasoning you have given there.
We shouldn't be worrying or trying to justify reincarnation, as we DO have a lot of living to do.

I have come to the conclusion, thanks to your firm opposing belief that what happens after our heart stops beating should not dictate the way we live this life.

Yes, to me personally, lots of matters make somekind of self logical sense with a belief. 
Now, secondly, because these make sense and give me some relief, I am more encouraged and free to move forward in my goal to embrace sikhism and God to the Maximum achievable.
So, if the believing or non believing helps you move forward, then we should just let it be.
Some of us progress faster than others and we shouldn't be slowing each other down.

In all honesty, when I first came to spn, I did in ignorance assume that all will have the same views.
I realised that some see black, whereas others see white. Black and white has a very fine line that seperates them. But it is only us that see this difference. To the lord, they are both equivalent, and go very well together just like day and night, sun and moon. Without light a full day cannot be completed, likewise without darkness a full 24 hr day cannot be completed (not talking about Alaska, it's not far from here!)

So as long as the beliefs don't knock us off our tracks, I realise that I should in fact encourage others with differing views to continue as they are as long as they stay on their correct track.

Thanks

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 23, 2012)

Harry ji,




harry haller said:


> When I was in my 20's I had a strong belief in reincarnation, to the point where I embraced death as a release,




But this may be because you had a wrong understanding with regard to the idea about past and future lives. 

Had you understood for example, that good and bad deeds must produce results anytime in the future, you'd not then think of death as being a release. Release from what? From your present troubles perhaps, but not realizing for example, that this very thinking with desire and aversion itself are cause for continued existence, and unpleasant ones at that. And while life is made of so much that is the stuff of continued existence (namely, good and bad deeds) which must produce results in the form of sense experiences and rebirth, to deny past and future lives must reflect lack of understanding as to what “life” really is.

And what indeed is life? It is a moment of consciousness accompanied by host mental factors arisen to experience one or another object, one at a time. But the nature of this is that it arises and falls away and must condition another consciousness in its place without any gap. So really, there is death and rebirth even now, and this can be understood for what it is. This is the reason why I suggested in my last message, that belief in past and future lives is a natural consequence of a correct understanding about life now.

And if you will note Harry ji, your thinking about death as release, this may well be motivated by the kind of underlying view which has lead you later on to believe in “nothingness”. It is not surprising though since this may be a very deeply held view coming from way in the past. And as I remarked before, it is in the nature of one who has yet to have right understanding, that his mind darts around and finds recourse in what otherwise are very different views.

Your belief in nothingness has negative consequence which I'd like to discuss about. But I do not want to through too many ideas at you at once, so I'll stop now and will wait for a response from you to see if you'd like me to say more.

Again I’d like to point out that I do not ask you to believe in past and future lives, what I ask you, is to question you “rejection”. Not to believe because one thinks that one does not understand is not bad. But to reject because one thinks that one understanding but in fact doesn't, this can't be good.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 24, 2012)

Lucky Singh ji,




> Some of us progress faster than others and we shouldn't be slowing each other down.




Yes, let's not slow each other down. And the only way that this will happen less and less, is by developing our own right understanding. The best help we can give to anyone is in sharing what we understand of the Truth. But an elephant stuck in the mud can't pull out another elephant also stuck in the mud, since an attempt to do so, will only lead to each sinking deeper. And how do we come to determine whether we are on solid ground or standing in the mud? Not easy isn't it?

Therefore before we can think in terms of whether or not we are slowing anyone down, should we not first find out if in fact we and the other are moving in the right direction?




> In all honesty, when I first came to spn, I did in ignorance assume that all will have the same views.
> I realised that some see black, whereas others see white. Black and white has a very fine line that seperates them. But it is only us that see this difference. To the lord, they are both equivalent, and go very well together just like day and night, sun and moon. Without light a full day cannot be completed, likewise without darkness a full 24 hr day cannot be completed




I think it best that you realize that thinking this way is just what "you" do. You find comfort in it the particular thought, and only for the occasion, but in reality this can't be a statement of Truth can it?

If you seek to study a particular path and not another, this must be because you see that it delivers a result the other can't. If you feel the need to correct some misunderstanding, this must be because you see it as having negative consequence. So why suddenly want to believe that it is all OK? Does this not in fact reflect uncertainty and doubt?

Good / bad, right / wrong are not relative to each other, but absolute. Kindness is kindness and can at no time be bad or wrong, likewise hatred is hatred and always wrong. Right understanding is opposed to wrong understanding and each have very different consequence regardless of which context we put the one in in an attempt to justify it. 




> So as long as the beliefs don't knock us off our tracks, I realise that I should in fact encourage others with differing views to continue as they are as long as they stay on their correct track.




This must sound like a virtue to you, but is it not more like wishful thinking? What if it is in fact a case of ignorance and attachment seeking to validate its own existence? 

It is not easy at all Lucky ji, given the extent of ignorance that we've accumulated. Let us however not make it more difficult by trying to find resolution in what can only be reflection of wrong understanding about the way things are. Because like it or not, more than any other kind of wrong, this is a powerful fuel that drives this wheel of existence spinning harder and for longer.


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## japjisahib04 (Feb 25, 2012)

Gyani Ji 

My take on ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ?" is quite different. First of all we must know what is 'aant kaal'. Is it the last moment in old age, young age or childhood? Or is it the time when I conspire to seize other wealth or is it the the time when I decided to move to top floor to jump or is it the time when I actually died.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

japjisahib04 said:


> Gyani Ji
> 
> My take on ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ?" is quite different. First of all we must know what is 'aant kaal'. Is it the last moment in old age, young age or childhood? Or is it the time when I conspire to seize other wealth or is it the the time when I decided to move to top floor to jump or is it the time when I actually died.
> 
> ...


 
Here the reference of ANT KAALi does not mean the last moment in lold age or the last moment of death.It referes to a "Period of Duration " from Birth to the last moment of Death.
The meaning so becomes clear from the grammar of the word KAALi,if it was for the last moment the word would be KAALu(with matra of Aukad under its last letter)
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 25, 2012)

*Is re-incarnation a Myth*
*Do past lives affect us?*​*.*

*LESSONS FROM GOD -Do Past Lives affect us*

*.*

*.**












*

_*.*_

*I was totally fed up with the Aircraft Salesman.*
*....We had purchased an aircraft from him, however he *
*...... was being extremely rude, unreasonable. In fact in *
*......... the aircraft industry he has a name for being very unreasonable.*
*.*
*Babaji help me "Why Is he so unreasonable?"*
*.*
*I was suddenly taken into this man's past life.*
*.*
*We were in Arabia, looking down into a Market.*
*.... Amongst much Hustle and Bartering, *
*........ I saw a teenage Arab boy being pushed from stall to stall.*
*The market traders were shouting at him, **abusing him**.*
*....... He was being traumatised daily - becoming angrier day by day!*
*.*
*. I became aware this Moslem teenager was none other than the salesman *
*......... (who in this life time is a staunch Christian).*
*.*
*I was shown the traumas he had faced in previous lifetimes **had *
*manifested in subsequent life times, because he refused to forgive and forget.*
*.*
*Had he learnt to forgive & forget, the anger and frustrations would *
*have reduced in his future rebirths!*​*.*
*In this Lesson from Babaji we learn :*
*.*
*We must learn to Forgive and Forget,*
*otherwise in our future rebirth we will face the same situations until we learn the Lesson.*
*..*
*The other Lesson Babaji teaches us is The only religion is Religion of love.*
*In different life times we have been born as Hindu, Sikh, Moslem, Christian, etc.*
*.*
*There is only one religion, the religion of Love;*
*There is only one language, the language of the Heart;*
*There is only one caste, the caste of Humanity; *
*There is only one law, the law of Karma; *

*






*
*There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.



*

*English Translation: *
*Shalok: If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the Messenger of Death will have nothing to say to you. O Nanak, the mind and body will be at peace, and in the end, you shall merge with the Lord of the world. ||1|| Chhant: Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord! With my palms pressed together, I offer my prayer: give me Your Name, O Lord, Har, Har. I beg for the Lord's Name, and fall at His feet; I renounce my self-conceit, by Your kindness.*
*I shall not wander anywhere else, but take to Your Sanctuary. O God, embodiment of mercy, have mercy on me. O all-powerful, indescribable, infinite and immaculate Lord Master, listen to this, my prayer. With palms pressed together, Nanak begs for this blessing: *

*O Lord, let my cycle of birth and death come to an end.*

*||1|| I am a sinner, devoid of wisdom, worthless, destitute and vile. I am deceitful, hard-hearted, lowly and entangled in the mud of emotional attachment. I am stuck in the filth of doubt and egotistical actions, and I try not to think of death. In ignorance, I cling to the pleasures of woman and the joys of Maya. *

*My youth is wasting away, old age is approaching, and Death, my companion, is counting my days. Prays Nanak, my hope is in You, Lord; please preserve me, the lowly one, in the Sanctuary of the Holy. *

*||2|| I have wandered through countless incarnations, suffering terrible pain in these lives. *
*.*

*I *






=


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## Kamala (Feb 25, 2012)

L0l it was to the OP aka Gyani Jarnail(?) ji.


The 84 holy places aren't there for fun.


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Mar 16, 2012)

*Bhai Kirtiya Ji*

March 16, 2012 by Sikhs Source: tuhitu.blogspot.in 

Sakhi Series :- 182 ( Bhai Kirtiya Ji )





*One day after the morning congregation was over a man brought a large bear into the darbar of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. The man wanted to give a performance with his bear before Guru Sahib and the sangat and as a consequence asked for permission.* On being permitted to do so he began to wrestle with his bear. After a while he used his stick to make the bear do all sorts of tricks.

At the time a Sikh called Bhai Kirtia Ji was doing chaur seva over _Dhan Dhan _Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. As the bear did it's tricks Bhai Kirtia Ji would begin to laugh out loudly. Towards the end of the performance Guru Sahib turned to Bhai Kirtia and asked him, "Bhai Kirtia do you not recognise the bear?" Bhai Kirtia looked confused and said, "Guru Ji it is a bear I have never seen" Guru Sahib smiled and said, "Bhai Kirtia it is your father Bhai Gurdas".

Upon hearing this Bhai Kirita was really surprised and upset. He folded his hands together and humbly said to Guru Sahib, "O Guru of the world, my father always did _seva _in your holy darbar. He would get up early in the morning and recite his prayers. He also served the ninth King, _Dhan Dhan_ Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahahdur Ji Maharaj. Having done such dedicated seva how can this be the reward given to him? If this is his fate what fate awaits someone like me? Please be kind and tell me why my father ended up in this unfortunate position after serving the house of _Dhan _Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj with such love and devotion."

Guru Ji said, "It is correct that your father had served _Dhan Dhan_ Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj devotedly. But on one occasion, while he was distributing _karah prasad_, a poor _Gursikh _was passing by loading cane sugar on his cart. He visited the Guru on his way while his oxen moved his cart. 

That Gursikh who was in a hurry, after paying his respects to _Dhan Dhan_ Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj and the _sangat _begged for some _prasad_ but your father refused to give him any. The _Gursikh _again requested but instead of giving him _Parshaad _your father reprimanded him for making the request again and again and angrily said "Why are you behaving like a bear?". The _Gursikh _was hurt.

 He picked up a small piece of _prasad _which had fallen on the floor and uttered, 'Waheguru', and went away asking _Akaal Purakh_ why some Sikhs of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had forgotten the true spirit of _Sikhi_.

A few days after this incident your father died and on account of his behaviour with the Gursikh was born again as the bear who sits in front of us today." But because of his _Sewa _and serving Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji he has reached here today in front of the _sangat_.

On hearing these words of _Dhan Dhan_ Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj the entire congregation felt pity for Bhai Gurdas Ji and collectively they begged Guru Ji to somehow redeem Bhai Gurdas Ji from that sort of life. Guru Sahib smiled at his Sikhs and turned towards the owner of the bear and asked him what price he was willing to sell the bear? 

The owner of the bear agreed to part with the animal for 200 rupees. Guru Sahib took 200 rupees from his own pocket and paid the owner of the bear.
After this the bear sat at the feet of _Dhan Dhan_ Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Guru Sahib then got some _karah prasad_ prepared which was distributed to all the _sangat_. Guru Sahib fed the bear a bit of _prasad_.

 A few seconds after Guru Ji had done this the bear went to sleep for the last time and Bhai Gurdas Ji's soul was liberated by that King of this world and the next.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 16, 2012)

so will any bear cat dog brought before Dhan Dhan Guru Granth sahib Ji and fed the karrah Parshad..straight away go to SLEEP for the "...LAST TIME"....? Has this ever happened anywhere in nay Gurdwara sahib ???   IF Not..why NOT ??
Isnt Dhan Dhan SGGS the Very exact SAME GURU as Guru Gobind Singh Ji ?? WHY such "miracles" cant happen ??

But fear NOT....the REAL MIRACLE that Guru Gobind Singh JI actually PERFORMED will be REPEATED once again on MARCH 31st in PATIAL JAIL of Punjab when Sardar Balwant Singh  RAJOANNA SAHIB kisses the Hangmans ROPE WILLINGLY and with LOVE of a SHAHEED...."*going to sleep for the Last Time with a LIONS ROAR *as Guru Gobind Singh ji taught US.

Have a LOOK at the Sahibzadah Ajit Singh Ji, Jhujaar Singh Ji battling the REAL LIVING DEMONS on the Battlefields of Chamkaur...LOOK at the Sahibzadahs Jorawar singh fateh Singh STARING DEATH in the face..and SMILING when they go to sleep for the last time...those are REAL MIRACLES..not bears smiling while eating karrah parhsaad..we SIKHS are being made a FOOL of just as the bear was made a fool of and made to perform...

SHAME on mindless people who believe in such mindless rubbish. STRONG words..yes and no apologies. The Living GURU SGGS is for us to read, vichaar and FOLLOW in PRACTISE...and now where does Gurbani/Guru/gurmat advocate such feedings of karahparahsads to make bears go to sleep..for last time or first time...THAT power lies in HIS HANDS.japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Harry Haller (Mar 17, 2012)

amarjit singh bamrah said:


> *Bhai Kirtiya Ji*
> 
> March 16, 2012 by Sikhs Source: tuhitu.blogspot.in
> 
> ...



As a man of God, I have only the hugest respect for you, Amarjitji, your message of love and unity comes from the heart, that I can tell, but as a historian, well, there are many stories and sakhis that, in my view, show the Gurus in a false light, and are only propagated for one reason, and one reason alone, and that is the integration of Sikhism into Hinduism, this is a classic story that has all the magic ingredients to show just how Vedic Sikhism is, no doubt there is a story for almost every facet of Hindu Sikhism, from the alleged worship of Hindu Goddesses to Karma. When I read such stories, I sense only manipulation and subterfuge.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 17, 2012)

Sakhi's - Every single one was written at least 100 years after the last Guru's demise. They are extremly unreliable.

The Varan by Bhai Gurdas in contrast are written while the Guru's were around.


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## Ahiyapuri (Oct 20, 2012)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*

Isn't it a scientific fact the stagnant water gets polluted and the flowing water not. Why and how it becomes a Brahminical philosophy? Wrong to say that all the hindu pilgrimages are on the banks of the rivers because of this reason only. All the civilisations were established on the river banks. Sikhism is a scientific pilosophy. That is why it was more appealing to masses long back, now a days religion is more dynamic concept ready to change. as shown by various blogs on this site.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 15, 2012)

there is no reincarnation, but the real defination sikhism should use is transmigration of souls.. that means we can drop back wards into animal kingdom, because god is powerfull here.. only manmukhs usually will believe in reincarnation.. reincarnation means will always receive human birth,, here god s will is not seen, only individual will exist...gurmukhs should use correct terms like transmigration of souls


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## Harry Haller (Dec 15, 2012)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> there is no reincarnation, but the real defination sikhism should use is transmigration of souls.. that means we can drop back wards into animal kingdom, because god is powerfull here.. only manmukhs usually will believe in reincarnation.. reincarnation means will always receive human birth,, here god s will is not seen, only individual will exist...gurmukhs should use correct terms like transmigration of souls



That is quite a lot of definitive statement there, not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation or transmigration, some believe in total death, but to be honest, does it make any difference? We get one shot at finding the correct way to behave, think, speak, act, after that its game over regardless.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 15, 2012)

harry haller said:


> That is quite a lot of definitive statement there, not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation or transmigration, some believe in total death, but to be honest, does it make any difference? We get one shot at finding the correct way to behave, think, speak, act, after that its game over regardless.




BUT...This Brahmgyani, Gurmat Maartand, etc etc etc..claims OTHERWISE..
Read Page 88 of Gurmatt Path darshan..and see
*ਸ੍ਰੀਮਾਨ, ਪੰਥ ਰਤਨ, ਵਿਦਿਯਾ ਮਾਰਤੰਡ, ਸੰਤ, ਗਿਆਨੀ, ਖਾਲਸਾ' ਬੇਸ਼ੁਮਾਰ ਵਿਸ਼ਲੇਸ਼ਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਪੂ ਬਣੇ ਬੈਠੇ ਮਾਲਕ
 'ਗੁਰਬਚਨ ਸਿੰਘ' ਜੀ ਦੇ ਅਨਮੋਲ ਬਚਨ -

  ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਇਕ ਵਾਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਛਕ ਲਿਆ। ਬਾਵੇਂ
 ਜਿੰਨੀਆਂ ਮਰਜੀ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਕਰੀ ਜਾਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ
 ਦਸ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਵਰ੍ਹੇ (ਬਰਸ) ਤੱਕ ਨਰਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਣ
 ਦਿਆਂਗੇ (ਪੰਨਾ-88)*



An Amrtidharee can commit COUNTLESS MISTAKES..he will be REBORN as  a SIKH for 10,000 YEARS !!! Just chhak Amrti from Dumdummy taksaal !!


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## Ishna (Dec 15, 2012)

Most people know me well enough by now to attest to the fact that I'm probably a perfect example of what Gurbani most likely means by 'coming and going'!!!!

And it's not fun, or pretty.  *hmph* 

You get no rest when you're constantly coming and going on the tumultuous world ocean (in this life) wondering how you're ever going to get to the other side, running from pillar to post, being dragged this way and that by maya, being disconnected from Naam, having a moment of clarity and a year of darkness, having one belief as a child, another as a youth, another in middle age... we already have many lives within this one life... it's our only chance, this one human life.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 15, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> BUT...This Brahmgyani, Gurmat Maartand, etc etc etc..claims OTHERWISE..
> Read Page 88 of Gurmatt Path darshan..and see
> *ਸ੍ਰੀਮਾਨ, ਪੰਥ ਰਤਨ, ਵਿਦਿਯਾ ਮਾਰਤੰਡ, ਸੰਤ, ਗਿਆਨੀ, ਖਾਲਸਾ' ਬੇਸ਼ੁਮਾਰ ਵਿਸ਼ਲੇਸ਼ਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਪੂ ਬਣੇ ਬੈਠੇ ਮਾਲਕ
> 'ਗੁਰਬਚਨ ਸਿੰਘ' ਜੀ ਦੇ ਅਨਮੋਲ ਬਚਨ -
> ...



BTW..only a real "Dum Dum" would believe in a Fairy Tale like that....BECAUSE SGGS declares quite definitively..Jo kicchh paiyah so EKA Vaar...and Gobind milan ke EH TERI Barreah...etc etc...hundreds of tuks by various Gurus bhagats etc...underline the Immeasurable Value fo HUMAN BIRTH....
Be AWARE such story tellers and spinners of the TRUTH...


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 15, 2012)

harry haller said:


> That is quite a lot of definitive statement there, not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation or transmigration, some believe in total death, but to be honest, does it make any difference? We get one shot at finding the correct way to behave, think, speak, act, after that its game over regardless.




thanks for the feedback..the whole of sikhism is a destiny to break away from cycles of birth and death, not going to heaven or hell where ego still exist in maya.. that salvation or mukti cannot be earned easily just by doing goodness only means actions related to 3 gunas... naams are not earned we are still subjected  to multiple deaths life after life.. death will not leave us.. true heaven in sikhism is such khand located beyond maya-universal mind...all of this should be earned thru meditation in a human birth..in meditation we must be able to rise higher beyond the 3 gunas,, or beyond where there is no ego,, or enter into the 4th stage consciousness...since in sikhism we believe in laws of causes and affects, karmas.. whatever that is earned in meditation will be taken after death.. that is the ticket to cross maya, maya is a snake a very cunning shadow counterpart of mind and body..it will always show you temporal not permanent things like artificial heavens and hells..it creates deceptions and confusion.. to rise higher we need the lord s GRACE here.. thru the true love to god grace is earned.. return love of god is called grace,, this is the very mystery that will burn all of our sins before we go beyond the 3 worlds of maya..without the grace of god we still be wondering in maya.. those who love god they will earn true mukti or salvation, but those who love maya death will never leave them


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2012)

Two questions harcharanjit ji

1. This one you have not answered on a different thread. Maybe you will answer it here. How does one "earn naams" according to gurmatt/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

2. Let's say there is a sadhu who has attained turyia in his lifetime, while he is alive in a physical body. How does he live outside of the influence of the 3 gunas?


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 16, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Two questions harcharanjit ji
> 
> 1. This one you have not answered on a different thread. Maybe you will answer it here. How does one "earn naams" according to gurmatt/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
> 
> 2. Let's say there is a sadhu who has attained turyia in his lifetime, while he is alive in a physical body. How does he live outside of the influence of the 3 gunas?



thanks ji.. for your first question the way out is to go in.. outwardsly we can stay in a style that is mention in our scriptures, to do our prayers daily and other activities that are related.. here we have to give a respect to guru granth sahib..then if we are very interested to go deep in serious meditation then here a guide help is required.. to find guide gurus that had reach to turiya or 4th stage is very difficult at the moment... because only kundalini types masters are available now in society..since we even had not taken the first step yet, we can use their help in our meditation to understand what is this maya..but remember we cannot start worshipping them and defining them as satgurus.. jivanmukt 4th stage gurus are very difficult to find them this days if i am not mistaken.. kundalini masters only give you deeper understanding of what is mind and body, in other words what is maya is.. their teachings are not related  to the manifestation of soul but only related to mind and body and energy levels..soul only manifest above the 10th door above the eyes..yes it s true that everything cannot be earned in one life time, but at least the understanding about the seed of maya is already been planted in us.. this dna will be with us life after life, maybe under the grace of god it will become more easier to earn mukti or naam in our next life.. everything in maya is a continueation undergoing changes.. for naam we need a satguru who had already visited the 4th stage. now in society we have many maya kundalini masters, we can start using their help but we cannot worship them or define them as a satgurus.. we just want to learn the art of meditation from them.. but if they started doing some rituals that are objected in sikhism, then avoid it.. we only touch the feet of a jivanmukt guru who had already earned naams beyond the 4th stage


for your second question for a sadhu who had already visited the 4th stage and naams must be always with society so he can help others.. but the probelm is most of this jivanmukt are not in societies, they stay far away and avoid society and this is not correct.. if he only thinks for his only mukti then he is self centred person.. this is the reasons why sometimes searching them becomes a difficult task.. only kundalini masters are easily found in society this days... outwardsly he should stay in a egoless mode of life and ready to help society not to avoid society.. thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 16, 2012)

IN other words...The SGGS is Not a Complete..Sampooran GURU...its good......BUT when it comes to "serious meditation" we NEED a Kundalini Master..a LIVING jeewnmukt..or a Satguru who has earned Naam...etc etc...and there you have it..the Dera Beas Guru..the Namdharee Guru..the Sirsa Guru..the Brahmgyani..the Yogis Harbahjan..etc etc who WILL "compliment" the SGGS to make one a "Complete" man..a truly meditating man..a jeewan Mukt ?? The SGGS ALONE CANNOT do that ???

Since I am IN MALAYSIA..cna any one POINT ME in the DIRECTION of a KUNDALINI MASTER who cna help me FINISH what my study and fiath in SGGS for 50 years has NOT Succeeded in making me Jeewanmukt ??  Additionally do I also need the DG/Sarbloh Granth./mahabharta/Ramayanna Puransa etc for "deeper meditation" /  for my Spirituality INCREASEMENT    or is a Kundlaini master enough ??

All this while I was under the Misconception that the ONLY GURU..The SGGS is ENOUGH for a SIKH...what a foolish thought...I need a Kundlaini master RIGHT AWAY !!!


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## kds1980 (Dec 16, 2012)

harry haller said:


> That is quite a lot of definitive statement there, not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation or transmigration, some believe in* total death,* but to be honest, does it make any difference? We get one shot at finding the correct way to behave, think, speak, act, after that its game over regardless.



Are there shabads in Guru granth sahib which  say about total death?


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## japjisahib04 (Dec 16, 2012)

kds1980 said:


> Are there shabads in Guru granth sahib which  say about total death?


 Let us first know what is death and life in the lense of gurbani.  In our nitnem we daily recite, 'aakha jeevan visrai mar jaon' (when I delve in gurbani I live and forgetting I die) or 'Nanak jit vaila visrai mera suwami *** vailai mar jao' - When I forget you Oh my beloved I die. SGGS 562.4 - Now do I physically die by ignoring the gurbani and or am not living? This mean through these pankties, guru sahib is trying to convey the definition of janam and maran and is referring to spiritual death or spiritual living and not physical death.  Thus baani is all about spiritual. 

To die every instant - 'pal pal marna' Guru sahib describes like this, 'par dhan par tan ... ava gavan hoat hai funn fuun eh parsangh na tuteh' SGGS. 971.2 - every moment I die and am reborn and yell like a dog or bite like a snake, am arrogant like lion, conspire to people fight like a crane,  and this cycle is not coming to an end until I focus my eyes at others wealth, others beauty, indulge in slandering others etc.  I don't expect whether people judge me as good or bad but when I am not at peace within myself, I don't take it like living but dead. So as per gurbani this aava gavan - reincarnation - transmigration is spiritual death or living. 

What is Naam. Naam is awareness - awareness of functioning of His hukam. Naam has further been elborated like, 'gur giaan padhaarath naam hai har naamo dhaee dhrirraae | (page 759 SGGS) The wisdom of the Guru is the treasure of the Naam. The Guru implants and enshrines the Lord's Name. gur kai bachan dhiaaeiou mohi naao | (page 239). So Naam is not a tanglible. "It" has to be 'validated' in context of the words of the Guru..i.e. Shabad. One may get it in an instant others may sit for ages, embroiled in rituals and chantings and still be at sea. But the necessary condition for it to be internalised it through Bibek (power of discernment in an awake/prepared mind). In the end it is all about our intent or chaz achaar. If the intent is to control others (i.e. ego reigns supreme), then both bibek and Naam are distant dreams. 

Best regards
Mohinder sahni


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## Ishna (Dec 16, 2012)

What Mohinder ji said x1,000,000,000,000!!  cheeringkudi


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 16, 2012)

YES Ishna Ji..I agree 110%..Sahni Ji has hit the nail good and proper. 

IF anyone still doenst get it..then yes he/she/IT... definitely needs to get in touch with harbahjan Yogi( Via Astral travel through deeeeeeep meditation of course...)... and drink his Golden temple TEA....( a few thousnd cups will make his Kunda-LEENEE begin swinging..ha ha..and he /she/It will be Jeewan MukT - FREE of Life..(meaning physically dead from kidney failure /liver failure/or just Tea overdose)...haaaaaaaaaaaaa!!


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## Harry Haller (Dec 16, 2012)

> the whole of sikhism is a destiny to break away from cycles of birth and death


Hmm I thought that was Hinduism.Out of the many facets of Sikhism, my thoughts were that it was more important to value this one and only life, rather than get caught up in some big picture. I think its quite simple, just live a good honest life and make a difference to those around you.



> not going to heaven or hell where ego still exist in maya..


But this maya is where we make our difference, within this maya is life, real life, cars, buildings, people, animals. It puts more importance on where you are, rather than who you are. Ego exists everywhere, to say there is some special place where we are all perfect, takes away from the understanding and wisdom which must be learned before one can put the ego where it belongs. What good is everlasting life if it has to be spent without crossing a boundary (thank you Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade), better to change yourelf surely..



> that salvation or mukti cannot be earned easily just by doing goodness only


Do you think that truly enlightened people give a damn about salvation or mukti? Do you think truly enlightened people count the goodness they do to see how close they are to earning anything? I think those that are truly enlightened focus on doing the best they can for the people round them, for Creation, and if Creator feels they have earned anything, than salvation/mukti, or no salvation/mukti is all the same. 



> true heaven in sikhism is such khand located beyond maya-universal mind


all sounds a bit selfish, I find true heaven is the ability to give without thought of receipt, to act within Hukam, and to savour the connection with Creator. 



> all of this should be earned thru meditation in a human birth..in  meditation we must be able to rise higher beyond the 3 gunas,, or beyond  where there is no ego,, or enter into the 4th stage consciousness


and then do what exactly? What do we do then? start a Dera? 



> since in sikhism we believe in laws of causes and affects, karmas..  whatever that is earned in meditation will be taken after death..


not all of us my friend, Creation is the biggest judge and leveller without involving Creator. Smoke, you get cancer, drink, you get liver problems, fornicate casually, you get STD's, there is nothing mysterious or magical about any of this, its common sense. 



> that is the ticket to cross maya, maya is a  snake a very cunning shadow counterpart of mind and body..it will  always show you temporal not permanent things like artificial heavens  and hells..it creates deceptions and confusion.. to rise higher we need  the lord s GRACE here.. thru the true love to god grace is earned..  return love of god is called grace,, this is the very mystery that will  burn all of our sins before we go beyond the 3 worlds of maya..without  the grace of god we still be wondering in maya.. those who love god they  will earn true mukti or salvation, but those who love maya death will  never leave them


Maya is where Creation is, its where we can embrace Creation, I do not recall the tenth master in rags looking for enlightenment, the general depiction is a man that lived in the world, that accepted the problems of the world, that tried to do something about them, whilst enjoying Creation, whislt hunting, holding court, with poets and culture. 

Can you not see that this path is the very path we should be avoiding, we should not be scared of Maya, like a child is scared of fire, we should be using it, embracing it, just not be sold by it, know it for what it is, runnning away , in my view, defeats the very purpose of why we are here. 

Why are we here? In my view not to find the 10th door, the third eye, the 7th toilet, etc etc, its really very simple, to do Creators work, to be an ambassador of Creator on earth, to do the will of Creator, and to be happy and content along the way, to not make falsehoods a God, to take things as they come, to see value in things other than material,  :interestedkudi:


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 18, 2012)

dear members
in sikhism to believe in god is gurmukh. and to reject him is manmukh.. since we believe in God s Will, then the real defination to be used is transmigration of souls not reincarnation.. in reincarnation it is believe in always getting human birth, going forward, no way of going backwards into animal kingdom, because here My Will is working not god s will. in transmigration of souls, the believe in god s will is strong here, and since god is powerfull, we can be thrown backwards into animal kingdom. but this is very rare because god has very strong compassion qualities in him, but remember he is still powerfull, no weakness in him. in our daily jap mool we are also mentioning, god is powerfull, remember that. another thing sikhism does not believe in heavens and hells.. every form taken in the 84 lakhs forms, is a hell for us, and ego exist in heaven and hell state. ego is the cause of going thru this 84 lakhs ego forms.. sikhis should find mukti, and rise higher then heavens and hells.. ultimate remedy here is still the NAAMS


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## lalihayer (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Huck Finn Ji,
> Page 368 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> “ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ॥” ਮ: 5 ਪੰਨਾ 374 Panharee measn servants..those who carry water for you..
> sikdaree is lorship/sardaree.
> ...



This earth is not for humans. Don't misquote one tuk out of whole Shabad. You seem to be reading more Sikhmarg than Gurbani.
It is long thread. I am only on 3rd page, not going to read anymore. You are trying to change meanings of Gurbani to fit reasoning done by your brain. If you can't grasp something out of Gurbani, instead of trusting word of Guru, you twist the words to fit your point.
Have fun!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 19, 2012)

*Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion*



lalihayer said:


> This earth is not for humans. Don't misquote one tuk out of whole Shabad. You seem to be reading more Sikhmarg than Gurbani.
> It is long thread. I am only on 3rd page, not going to read anymore. You are trying to change meanings of Gurbani to fit reasoning done by your brain. If you can't grasp something out of Gurbani, instead of trusting word of Guru, you twist the words to fit your point.
> Have fun!



No body is under nay 'compulsion" to read beyond even the Title...I am surprised you went up to Page 3..Good for you Ji...( But its NOT my FAULT)

Heres what Prof SAHIB SINGH JI says..in SGGS Darpan..and The ENTIRE SHABAD is quoted...

*Page 374*
 ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ॥  ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤੇਰੀ ਨੀਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ॥ ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਨੀਐ ਪਾਂਤਿ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਥਾਨੁ ॥ ਬਿਗੜ  ਰੂਪੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਸੋਹਨੀ ਸਰੂਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣਿ ਬਿਚਖਨਿ ॥  ਅਤਿ ਗਰਬੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਫਾਕੀ ਤੂੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  ਅਤਿ ਸੂਚੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਾਕਸਾਲ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਾਲ ॥ ਗਲੀ ਗਰਬਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੋਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨ ॥ ਸਭ  ਬਿਧਿ ਖੋਈ ਲੋਭਿ ਸੁਆਨ ॥੨॥ ਕਾਪਰ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਭੋਗਹਿ ਭੋਗ ॥  ਆਚਾਰ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਲੋਗ ॥ ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨ ਸੁਗੰਧ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ ਸੰਗੀ  ਖੋਟਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥੩॥ ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥  ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥  ਸੁਇਨਾ ਰੂਪਾ ਤੁਝ ਪਹਿ ਦਾਮ ॥ ਸੀਲੁ ਬਿਗਾਰਿਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਾਮ ॥੪॥ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਮਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ  ॥ ਸਾ ਬੰਦੀ ਤੇ ਲਈ ਛਡਾਇ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥  ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਫਲ ਓਹ ਕਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ ਸਭਿ ਰੂਪ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਬਨੇ ਸੁਹਾਗਨਿ  ॥ ਅਤਿ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬਿਚਖਨਿ ਤੂੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 374}


and HE SAYS EXACTLY what I QUOTED.   "OH Human..Your Joonee is Supreme...highest..Your RULE is over ALL..and you have wealth....


Yes I do READ SIKH MARG....and also SGGS...and also Prof sahib Singh, Faridkotee teeka and many others...AND ALL say the SAME THING.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jan 13, 2013)

This is an interesting topic and I am surprised I didn't find it before now!  

My take on this may be a little different than others... because in one way I do believe in reincarnation but in another I do not.  And let me explain why: 

I believe that there really is only ONE universal consciousness in existence.  We are all a part of that Universal consciousness. Like characters in a dream, only this is the dream of the Creator.  When you dream at night, all the characters seem to act independently, but in reality they are all you, even if you only experience the dream through the eyes of one particular character.  So my take on Maya or the Illusion, is that separateness IS the illusion. There is really only ONE of us here!   

Now why do I believe in reincarnation?  The same reason I believe in evolution.  An idea... any idea, needs to be firstly created, and then expanded upon.  Like an artist starting a sculpture.  It starts out primitive, then gains more form.  In our case, this evolution was necessary in order for consciousness to develop at the level we have now.  In reality Waheguru IS the only consciousness, but in the process of the evolution of the creation, Waheguru had to experience everything. And everything evolved over time to the point of having human consciousness - the necessary step to realize our origin and merge back with the ONE universal consciousness that is Waheguru.  

So basically I both believe in reincarnation (within the illusion) and do not believe in reincarnation, because in reality we are all ONE. In reality the only thing in existence is Waheguru.  We are the dream of the creator.  

Or put by someone else I read awhile back, We are all examples of the ONE creator subjectively experiencing creation through many eyes (us). But in reality there really is only the creator and there only ever was the creator. 

This is supported in Gurbani:



> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p.736
> 
> ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
> Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
> ...



The above points out the fact that Waheguru IS the director (creator) of the play (this reality) AND all the characters (us). So what does that say about reincarnation? Within the 'play' it certainly can be real, but that is still only a part of the illusion. The true reality is ONE-ness.  All the incarnations, births, deaths, etc are part of the illusion so in reality they do not exist!! And since the separateness is so convincing to us, and we are so cut off from our origin, it is true that we have only this one life to realize that fact. Because if we wake in another birth within this illusion, we essentially start over with no knowledge again - and knowing only separateness.   

There are also many references to the fact that this world is a dream... the dream of the creator:



> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p.18
> 
> ਜਗੁ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਬਾਜੀ ਬਨੀ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਾਇ ॥
> Jag supnā bājī banī kẖin mėh kẖel kẖelā▫e.
> The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out.





> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p.63
> 
> ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਲੋਇ ॥੭॥
> Gurmaṯ ho▫e vīcẖārī▫ai supnā ih jag lo▫e. ||7||
> Through the Guru's Teachings, they come to understand and see that this world is just a dream. ||7||



There are so many quotes like this I won't post any more here... 

So the way I have come to see things, is that everything is really ONE and this reality is a dream... like our dreams we can create and in our dreams we are all the characters.  (borrowing on something from the movie Matrix) If you could never wake up from your dream you may never know you were actually sleeping! Instead, you play out many different characters (incarnations), not knowing that you are really ALL the characters because you see and experience them as separate.  But if you could wake up, you would easily see that everything in the dream was really you.


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## bairaagi (Jan 31, 2013)

Akasha said:


> This is an interesting topic and I am surprised I didn't find it before now!
> 
> My take on this may be a little different than others... because in one way I do believe in reincarnation but in another I do not.  And let me explain why:
> 
> ...




This post forced me to put up my thoughts as well.
I am also very much impressed with the following theories/movies :

1. E=mc2
2. Big Bang Theory
3. Special Theory of relativity
4. Matrix Trilogy (loosely based in Shreemad Bhagwat Geeta) 
5. Inception Movie

E=mc2 : Explains how energy and mass are inter controvertible which means It is either single energy flowing across the universe and some where it has been converted to mass and vice versa.
Big Bang : Based on E=mc2 it explains how physical world came into existence and also explains the cycle creating/destruction of solar systems and other objects.
Special Theory of relativity : The only constant is speed of light . Rest of the things are how we see them. Very interesting concepts like time dilation,length contraction and much more. Time dilation is mentioned in Hindu Mythology also like Bhramha's 1 second = lacs of years on earth.

Matrix and Inception are explained by Akasha ji in last post.

Being Software developer sometimes I can also relate the world to objects inside JVM(java virtual machine) ... I am going for too technical 

When I think very deep sometimes I feel like atheist that world could be self existing 
When a person is dead and lets says he does not qualify for salvation then he has to go through 84 lac birth cycles (may be earth or some other planet) without memory of last birth . Then what is the point ? To be fair at least last memories should have been carried along so that one can learn from mistakes and find salvation in next birth


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## spnadmin (Aug 5, 2015)

Mohinder Singh ji, Thanks for a detailed reflection. 



japjisahib04 said:


> Let us first know what is death and life in the lense of gurbani.  In our nitnem we daily recite, 'aakha jeevan visrai mar jaon' (when I delve in gurbani I live and forgetting I die) or 'Nanak jit vaila visrai mera suwami *** vailai mar jao' - When I forget you Oh my beloved I die. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 562.4 - Now do I physically die by ignoring the gurbani and or am not living? This mean through these pankties, guru sahib is trying to convey the definition of janam and maran and is referring to spiritual death or spiritual living and not physical death.  Thus baani is all about spiritual.
> 
> To die every instant - 'pal pal marna' Guru sahib describes like this, 'par dhan par tan ... ava gavan hoat hai funn fuun eh parsangh na tuteh' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 971.2 - every moment I die and am reborn and yell like a dog or bite like a snake, am arrogant like lion, conspire to people fight like a crane,  and this cycle is not coming to an end until I focus my eyes at others wealth, others beauty, indulge in slandering others etc.  I don't expect whether people judge me as good or bad but when I am not at peace within myself, I don't take it like living but dead. So as per gurbani this aava gavan - reincarnation - transmigration is spiritual death or living.
> 
> ...



The thread title is Support for the Concept of Reincarnation in Sikhism. It is very difficult to resist publishing one's personal theories regarding reincarnation because the idea of it is intriguing and there are so many movies inspired by the idea of reincarnation. Still it is important to stick with the subject matter: does Sikhism support reincarnation? or 84 lak joon? 

What do our Nanaks 1 through 10 really say about that? SPN Mentor, Gyani ji, quotes Professor Sahib Singh. The passage gives a roadmap for discussion.

Forum Member Harry Haller ji asks whether a Hindu slant is relevant. Does it help or hinder us?

The quote above by forum member Mohinder Singh Sahni ji is another good example.  Sahni ji has not interjected his personal theories. Rather he brings us back to Gurbani. 

These 3 replies keep the thread in the realm of Sikh Sikhi Sikhism, instead of migrating somewhere else, maybe to a different subforum. In this subforum it is important to maintain a Gurbani focus. The answer is in Gurbani.


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## Original (Aug 6, 2015)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> my understanding is this is just a figure Guru Ji picked up to ILLUSTRATE GURMATT. So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION.



Respected Gyani Ji - so knowledgeble a man and so little a reflection of wisdom ! For Gur Ghar, reincarnation was an ailment and nam simran a remedy. How otherwise or from what must Nanak come to the rescue of humankind?

However one may view reincarnation or word it differently, but it indeed be, impossible to understand and interpret the moral base and development of Sikhism without accepting its validity. The reason arguably is quite simple, the deep n profound faith element it inspired and the abiding influence exercised amongst the people at the time denotes reincarnation indispensable.

Thank you !


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 6, 2015)

Original said:


> Respected Gyani Ji - so knowledgeble a man and so little a reflection of wisdom ! For Gur Ghar, reincarnation was an ailment and nam simran a remedy. How otherwise or from what must Nanak come to the rescue of humankind?
> 
> However one may view reincarnation or word it differently, but it indeed be, impossible to understand and interpret the moral base and development of Sikhism without accepting its validity.* The reason arguably is quite simple, the deep n profound faith element it inspired and the abiding influence exercised amongst the people at the time denotes reincarnation indispensable.*
> 
> Thank you !


Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your many recent posts stated here claim the same as above and then you have flip flopped in many a times about the same concept as well. You may check them by yourself if you wish to.

Please tell us for the last time, what your final stance is and I would like to urge you to use whole shabads from the SGGS,our only Guru for your stance either way. You have also mentioned that what you have learnt about Sikhi and stand by it from your forefathers which is commendable but please understand that most of us if not all have been blessed with the same lineage as you have been, hence yours in not the unique situation in that sense. I do not feel the compulsion to talk about mine although they are quite known in our Sikh history.

Tejwant Singh


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## Original (Aug 7, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Singh Ji

Quite frankly, like every other educated being, we're taught to think objectively. Element of emotion n fancifulness are completely removed from the equation, dealing with facts without fear or favour, is what our stance is. That is to say, Sikh history will be half told without the proper signification of the then theory of reincarnation within which it evolved. Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji's unsubstantiated statement, ought to, in my view, need revisiting.

As for forefathers, yes, we're fortunate to have traced our historical beginnings back to early period of human history. And, what has been passed on to us by our father's is what we will pass on to our children - Ikonkar satnam waheguru Ji.

I must attend to my butler's call - it's lunch time for me ! 

Take care


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 7, 2015)

Original said:


> Tejwant Singh Ji
> 
> Quite frankly, like every other educated being, we're taught to think objectively. Element of emotion n fancifulness are completely removed from the equation, dealing with facts without fear or favour, is what our stance is. That is to say, Sikh history will be half told without the proper signification of the then theory of reincarnation within which it evolved. Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji's unsubstantiated statement, ought to, in my view, need revisiting.
> 
> ...



Original ji,

But you still hopscotched on your flipflopping on reincarnation as if you were trying to walk on hot coal. I am sure our forefathers also told us to learn in order to have convictions which in Sikhi are not etched in stone. This is the reason we are  called Sikhs, students, learners where there is no absolute truth like in Abrahamic  religions or in Hindutva but truth is absolute, for now..



> Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji's unsubstantiated statement, ought to, in my view, need revisiting.



I will wait for your input while you revisit what Gyani ji said.

BTW, why are your butler's gloves so dirty?

Enjoy your grub but please order your butler to take the dirty gloves off.


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## Original (Aug 8, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> But you still hopscotched on your flipflopping on reincarnation as if you were trying to walk on hot coal. I am sure our forefathers also told us to learn in order to have convictions which in Sikhi are not etched in stone. This is the reason we are  called Sikhs, students, learners where there is no absolute truth like in Abrahamic  religions or in Hindutva but truth is absolute, for now..
> 
> ...



Tejwant Ji

Forgive me for much of not wanting to but because of my perspective that you'd be dispositioned as such. Kindly migrate over to my recent say on another thread, "..... interpretation", perhaps some comfort n understanding will pave, I'm sure.

Good day !


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## Ishna (Aug 8, 2015)

The concept of literal reincarnation is a can of worms.  It makes things more complicated and is a distraction away from Naam.

Reincarnation brings with it:

Reduced compassion: The horrible idea of karmic births and this reduces compassion for other beings in the world.  A person is suffering?  Oh well, it's just their karma, they must have been a bad person to deserve such a life.  Don't feel bad about their suffering, they obviously deserve it.  To quote Rajesh Koothrappali: "I'm a Hindu. My religion says that if we suffer in this life, we are rewarded in the next. Three months in the North Pole with Sheldon, and I'm reincarnated as a well-hung millionaire with wings."
Apathy:  So what if I don't strive in this life, I'll do it in the next one.  (I kid you not, I've heard a lady at Gurdwara say something to this effect to me.)
Unequality:  It perpetuates casteism, and, in Buddhism, the idea that a woman has to be reborn as a man before she can be 'liberated'.
Useless concept.  Throw it away.  It's more trouble than it's worth.  You are a human now, anything else is totally irrelevant.  @Original Ji, this is what I believe Guru Arjan Sahib was getting at with with his shabad on panna 378.

imho.


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## Original (Aug 8, 2015)

Ishna said:


> The concept of literal reincarnation is a can of worms.


Not if you treat it as a primitive concept and understand how societies and people were shaped and affected by it. It is an integral part of both social and religious constitution of the then Indian society, understanding of which is fundamental to grasp Nanak's dissent and ideology.


Ishna said:


> It makes things more complicated and is a distraction away from Naam.


Guru Nanak made it a feature to lead humankind away from it [reincarnation] and bring them to god-realisation.


Ishna said:


> Useless concept.


As primates, we once had a tail and now its gone, so too will the theory of reincarnation, what's left of it. From historical perspective it was part n parcel of social and religious evolution - look how refined we are today [Sikh] and look how much modern Sikhism is doing to correct errors of past civilisations.
As a law student years ago, I together with a host of international law community challenged the caste system on the basis it being a racial discrimination. I'm pleased to tell you, that, what we were then denied by both the Indian Government and the UN has recently been triumphed. So yes, we are moving in the right direction, but sadly lot of damage has been done due to humankind's primitive concepts.

Yes, we are humans beings now en route to our true home, spiritual beings.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 8, 2015)

Original said:


> Tejwant Ji
> 
> Forgive me for much of not wanting to but because of my perspective that you'd be dispositioned as such. Kindly migrate over to my recent say on another thread, "..... interpretation", *perhaps some comfort n understanding will pave, I'm sure.*
> 
> Good day !



Original ji,



> perhaps some comfort n understanding will pave, I'm sure.



Would you be kind enough to elaborate? What my question has to do with your sympathy above?

 I asked you a direct question and expect a direct answer when you admit two different things on the same subject. Yourself being a lawyer should know better than that.


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## Original (Aug 11, 2015)

Respected Tejwant Ji

Forgive me for the late response, weekends are a complete retreat for me, whenever possible.

You can ask almost anyone about controversial topics and they’ll be happy to give you an opinion, backed of course, by arguments and facts. Moreover, anyone can take a stand, and almost everyone can argue their viewpoint, but  not all come with an open mind. Largely because their views and opinions are deep rooted in some philosophical or a particular system of belief. Our system however, is founded on the freedom of everything within the confines of spiritual, temporal system and regulated by sober conscience, which is underpinned by a set of hard-core values. We act on our instincts, whereas, sizeable population do so on instruction and prescription. I believe that we are obligated to strive for something more subtle, more meaningful and completely harmonious. And, in that we ought to carefully examine all sides of an issue, listen attentively to the arguments being made, and to come to a true understanding of how different people see the issues and what it means to them. Then, and only then, can we form an educated position and lead boldly in that direction, all the while demonstrating empathy for those with opposing views.

Attending to the subject matter at hand, reincarnation, I'll reiterate...at Gyani Ji's remarks above:

"*...gur ghar, from an ideological perspective, treated reincarnation [note, not birth] as an ailment and nam simran a remedy, for how otherwise or from what must Nanak come to the rescue of humankind ? Yes, reincarnation it is from which Nanak must rescue the separated soul and reunite with the omnipotent, thus ending reincarnation. However one may view reincarnation or word it differently, but it indeed be, impossible to understand and interpret the moral base and development of Sikhism without accepting its validity. The reason arguably is quite simple, the deep n profound faith element it inspired and the abiding influence exercised amongst the people at the time denotes reincarnation indispensable.

Do I need to say more ? No ! 
*
We must never forget that people do not act and make choices in a vacuum. The factors influencing their choices can be understood, and these influences lie at two levels. The first level is that of the values and beliefs they have learnt through socialisation. What is socialisation ? It is the process by which we acquire the *culture* of the society into which we are born [at Nanak's time it was predominantly Hindu with a touch of Islam] What is culture ? It is the learned behaviour in any particular society, that includes for example, ideas [Hindu n Islam] techniques, practices, habits, which are passed on by one generation to another - in a sense, a social heritage. Also, a set of solutions to problems that, in the course of time, our predecessors have met and solved. In this manner of speaking, not only is Gurbani literature, the foundation of Sikh religion, but also the social heritage of today's Sikh generation. 

The second level is practical constraints, that is, social engineering. In both levels, knowledge and understanding of the "*society*" at the times of the gurus and the banikars is fundamental. The then society was instrumental in giving birth to Sikhism. Reincarnation was for the people of Nanak's times what redemption and resurrection is for modern day Christians. Any attempts to interpret Gurbani in its absence would fall flat on its face rendering it inaccurate. It's like giving meaning to "married-bachelor" and asking, "what's north of North Pole ?"

Just as the story of science can never be told without the moments of revelation of Copernicus, Darwin and Einstein, so too the story of Nanak's Sikhism will remain incomplete without the theory of reincarnation.

I write with a jovial pen full of serene fluid on a tender leaf, try and repay me likewise.

Goodnight n Godbless
PS - I think reincarnation has been mullered beyond death, I'd like to leave with your permission ! Thank you


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 12, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Reincarnation brings with it:
> 
> Reduced compassion: The horrible idea of karmic births and this reduces compassion for other beings in the world.  A person is suffering?  Oh well, it's just their karma, they must have been a bad person to deserve such a life.  Don't feel bad about their suffering, they obviously deserve it..



sat sri akaal Ishna ji

How it reduce compassion ? if someone is suffering  ,helping him/her  amounts to your good karma.


Unequality: It perpetuates casteism, and, in Buddhism, the idea that a woman has to be reborn as a man before she can be 'liberated'.
           Kindly elaborate    how it perpetuates  casteism ?  and Sikhi is  not Buddhism .


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## chazSingh (Aug 12, 2015)

Ishna said:


> The concept of literal reincarnation is a can of worms.  It makes things more complicated and is a distraction away from Naam.
> 
> Reincarnation brings with it:
> 
> ...




ishna ji

you wrote:

*Reincarnation brings with it:*

*Reduced compassion: The horrible idea of karmic births and this reduces compassion for other beings in the world.  A person is suffering?  Oh well, it's just their karma, they must have been a bad person to deserve such a life.  Don't feel bad about their suffering, they obviously deserve it.  To quote Rajesh Koothrappali: "I'm a Hindu. My religion says that if we suffer in this life, we are rewarded in the next. Three months in the North Pole with Sheldon, and I'm reincarnated as a well-hung millionaire with wings."*
when you yourself see someone is need...what does it bring into you? does it bring the above? or does it bring compassion, the wanting to help, to be someone that might uplift them in some way rather than what you have written above...why worry about what others think..is the most important thing not what you yourself think and how you inspire others?

you wrote:


*Apathy:  So what if I don't strive in this life, I'll do it in the next one.  (I kid you not, I've heard a lady at Gurdwara say something to this effect to me.)*

again, what do you think? why worry about what others think or how they take it.. IF and i say IF....karma, and reincarnation is the TRUTH, should we brush it under the carpet because people think a certain way...


*Unequality:  It perpetuates casteism, and, in Buddhism, the idea that a woman has to be reborn as a man before she can be 'liberated'.*

there are so many people, so many opinions and ideas and thoughts...countless...what matters is what you yourself think...

Me personally, i Accept the notion of  "as you sow shall you reap" ... i think it is universal law. Therefore i accept i am where i am because of what i did...i don;t blame anyone for anything...it is all my doing...and from this moment onwards (the present)...i wish to make changes to the way i am as a person and at the same time seek to experience Waheguru to the full...to sow better seeds and hopefully reap what i crave, knowledge and experience of my creator... 

i don;t think i should discard anything because others take a concept in a negative way...


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## Ishna (Aug 9, 2017)

Apologies for the late reply, I've been interstate for work and totally exhausted.

@Original Thanks for your post, well said.

@harmanpreet singh I have seen an attitude where people feel that a person is suffering as punishment for past sins, and that it is good to suffer, as it cleanses you of your sins.  It's easier to ignore suffering when you think it is for their own benefit.  And we should help people because it's the right thing to do, not for our own reward.  The fact that good actions bring us closer is a happy side-effect.

Karma-Reincarnation-Caste all go hand-in-hand.

And thank Guru that Sikhi is not Buddhism.

@chazSingh  Exactly - why worry about it?  Why spruik reincarnation as an idea, why think about it at all, when we know where our focus should be?  Ergo... the whole system of reincarnation can go in the dustbin.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 9, 2017)

When Gurbani speaks about the countless lifetimes you have experienced, please realize it's not talking about the haume. It's talking about the ONE underlying conscious awareness, the 'doer' behind ALL.

The only way I can explain it is to say that every night when I dream, I experience an entirely new identity. Sometimes in the same identity I have now, other times as other identities. I could say with certainty that I have reincarnated thousands of times into those different dream characters. But, the dream characters themselves did NOT reincarnate. Why? Because they were all false right? Same too, this world is false and these separate identities we think we are, are false. The doer behind all identities is the Same ONE. 

So do YOU reincarnate? Yes. But not in the way you think. Because YOU are NOT the haume or separate identity you think you are. It's Waheguru who is experiencing all the different lifetimes. 



Ishna said:


> Apologies for the late reply, I've been interstate for work and totally exhausted.
> 
> @Original Thanks for your post, well said.
> 
> ...


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## Ishna (Aug 12, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> When Gurbani speaks about the countless lifetimes you have experienced, please realize it's not talking about the haume.



Of course it's not, as haumai is a perceived separation between self and God.



> It's talking about the ONE underlying conscious awareness, the 'doer' behind ALL.



Sure.  And that conscious awareness is God, not your personality, not your sense of self, not you in any way. You die.



> The only way I can explain it is to say that every night when I dream, I experience an entirely new identity. Sometimes in the same identity I have now, other times as other identities. I could say with certainty that I have reincarnated thousands of times into those different dream characters. But, the dream characters themselves did NOT reincarnate. Why? Because they were all false right? Same too, this world is false and these separate identities we think we are, are false. The doer behind all identities is the Same ONE.



Agreed.  God is the dreamer and we are the dream characters.  Dream characters don't reincarnate, right?  They have no reality or substance of their own outside of the dream.



> So do YOU reincarnate? Yes. But not in the way you think. Because YOU are NOT the haume or separate identity you think you are. It's Waheguru who is experiencing all the different lifetimes.



I think fundamentally we agree but our understanding of God, self and jyot are perhaps different.  I am nothing, I die, I am a dream character.  The jyot is God, the jyot continues.  I am not the jyot.  I am merely the cloth over the jyot.  Ishna will not exist in an afterlife, Ishna is temporary.  In reality there is only God.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 12, 2017)

Exactly! Ishna Ji does not reincarnate but YOU DO! Because fundamentally, you are not Ishna! Science is actually proving that awareness consciousness whatever is not created by the body, it just exists. In fact all of reality is created by that one consciousness, which is you, me, everyone but we are one and the same. Each night when I dream I don't remember the previous dream character from the night before. But I was really the consciousness behind both. Or in the same dream, I might not recall that I am actually the monster chasing myself in my own nightmare! But I really am! It all happened in my dream! But when I wake up, I didn't cease to exist. I was the consciousness behind that character. The character ceases to exist but I don't. We (or rather the I AM) only changes forms, and we may not remember previous forms, but that's why the imperative to wake up while still in the dream. 
I have already accepted that I am not Harkiran. Harkiran is only one part I will play, have played, am playing right now. I am striving to realize universal consciousness. 

Tonight I might dream my name is Helga and I am a lumberjacks wife. When I wake tomorrow Helga will cease to exist but I won't. I realize that Helga is not my TRUE identity. But my consciousness my essence is who I really am. Since this reality is just another 'dream' which has no real substance, I know I will surpass it. 

So what I am trying to say is that Waheguru IS you and me and everyone. And that sense of self that you think is Ishna, is really Waheguru who has forgotten that Ishna is just a costume. This is what Gurbani talks about so much attachment. Attachment to this identity as if it's all we have. But it's not. It's like a person who had a whole life then at 30 gets profound amnesia and starts living a new life. Eventually he remembers his old life, but in that time he had built an entirely new identity around entirely new people and an entirely new life with different hobbies etc. So, which one is the real him? The answer is neither. The conscious awareness of sense of self exists outside both actually. 



Ishna said:


> Of course it's not, as haumai is a perceived separation between self and God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Original (Aug 13, 2017)

Dear All

The important thing to remember is the difference between *TRUTH* and *REALITY. *Take for example, the multiple reflections of the moon in little pockets of water dotted around the globe.. Whilst the reflections holds *true *a representation of the moon at night, *reality* is a single moon casting all the reflections. This confirmation can only be had by looking up at the sky. Truth may not be reality, but can the reflections be denied their independent existence spread out in space below ?  No ! Neither can Ishna [soul] be denied an infinite existence.

Good day !


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