# Rehat



## kds1980 (Dec 21, 2005)

wjkk
wjkk
today i read the following shabad  


parh pustak sanDhi-aa baadaN. 
You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate; 
??? ????? ???? ????? ? 
??? ????? ???? ????? ? 
sil poojas bagul samaaDhaN. 
you worship stones and sit like a stork, pretending to be in Samaadhi. 
???? ??? ?????? ???? ? 
???? ??? ?????? ???? ? 
mukh jhooth bibhookhan saaraN. 
With your mouth you utter falsehood, and you adorn yourself with precious decorations; 
??????? ????? ?????? ? 
??????? ????? ?????? ? 
taraipaal tihaal bichaaraN. 
you recite the three lines of the Gayatri three times a day. 
??? ???? ????? ?????? ? 
??? ???? ????? ?????? ? 
gal maalaa tilak lilaataN. 
Around your neck is a rosary, and on your forehead is a sacred mark; 
??? ???? ????? ????? ? 
??? ???? ????? ????? ? 
du-ay Dhotee bastar kapaataN. 
upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths. 
?? ????? ?????? ???? ? 
?? ????? ?????? ???? ? 
jay jaanas barahmaN karmaN. 
If you knew the nature of God, 
??? ???? ????? ???? ? 
??? ???? ????? ???? ? 
sabh fokat nischa-o karmaN. 
you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain. 
??? ???? ????? ????? ? 
??? ???? ????? ????? ? 
kaho naanak nihcha-o Dhi-aavai. 
Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith;
it is clearly written in guru granth sahib that external practices are useless so how can we justify rehat.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 21, 2005)

Dear KDS


Y are absolutely right when you say that external signs ar e useless and they are but if does not mean that they are prohibited as they are useless when just done alone but they can complement tyour internal sate of being if they are also accompanied by good deeds 


So is the rehat of a hndu , Muslim and sikh  and guru ji talke about hindu and muslims of that time and is happen to walk on earth again now he will surely talk same about the Sikhs as well 

But the thing is their is nothing wrong with the rehat but just to follow rehat is useless
their ar many other examples in gurbani where guru ji has similarly said the bathing of body to be useless but obviously it jsut mean that just external bathing your body is useless if you dont clean your inside with naam simran

So what I think is there is nothing wrong in rehat even hindu and muslim rehat if spirtuality is also given a chance to develop inside along with xternal signs



Jatinder Singh


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## devinesanative (Dec 22, 2005)

Knowledge cannot be found in books , when you will get inside the shoes of the writer , then you will find that what ever is written in the books is the world percieved and concieved by the writer.

Writer only provides you the raw material to make further churn out knowledge from your real life.

If you carefully observe the universe , Just sit in a lonely place and meditate of this question.

Is there any spindle or Axle which his holding the SUN in the same place since the dawn of the civilization ?

Is there any specific road made around the SUN were the planets revolve ?

No .

But , still the SUN is there for millions of years and all the planets are revolving around the SUN in the specific path with any physical Roads.


Similarly we must , not be attached to the physical attributes or packaging of the exterior Looks .


First Create the Valuable Product , ie SIKH FROM WITHIN , then think of Packaging it .


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## devinesanative (Dec 22, 2005)

Jab Dil se Nikalti Hai aah ,
Tab milti hai manzilon ko Rah,

Rukawtein aateen hai bepanaah ,
Mat karo tum kisi Rukawat ki parwaah.


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## devinesanative (Dec 22, 2005)

Dil se agar chaho to Pathar mein Jaan aa jayegi .
Nakal(rituals) karoge agar to jaan chali jayegi.


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## kds1980 (Dec 23, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

     dr.khalsa ji please be fair and tell that is it possible to keep rehat in  some places.i mean you can keep rehat in india uk canada and may be in us but what about other countries.the sikh who joined pak army have to eat halaal meat as i don;t think they are going to give him vegetarian or jhatka food
similarly sikhs are facing lot of problems in france and other countries what option they have should they leave their jobs or businesses to move to toher countries


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## devinesanative (Dec 23, 2005)

Make the whole world SIKH .

Then there will be no problem .

But the Indians have a typical mindset .

Starting form the First Guru to the Tenth Guru , there are ten steps .

Sikhs are head on heals , to skip the first 9 steps and directly jump to the 10th step .

Otherwise , today the whole world would have been the follower of the Sikhism . 

During the time of Gurunanak dev ji , people from diverse backgrounds gathered together and listened to him.

But today only Sikhs Listen from the first Ear and Pass out from the Second Ear , simultaneously Expecting that From the second Ear may reach to the others First Ear and the process is going on.


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## kds1980 (Dec 23, 2005)

excellent reply dvs i totally agree with you on ten steps


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## drkhalsa (Dec 23, 2005)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> excellent reply dvs i totally agree with you on ten steps


 

Dear Kds 1980



I understand your concern and I also live in a place where there no sikh around me ( I am in N Ireland)

And I will never ever proclaim that I am the sikh with best Rehat 

what i was trying to say that to say rituals are bad or bash them as some of our sikh fellows always try to do by bashing others religions for being ritualist is totally wrong in the essence that the only thing matters is one's spirtuality and love for god 

I have seen many ritualist hindu fellows who worship idols but they are so spirtual and have love for God that feel myself so small among them so there is no question I can call them wrong

Now about keeping rehat ,yes it is chalange a big challenge and I will be difficult to keep it anywhere whether it is India or overseas ( as per my view for our young generation it is more difficult or atleast of same difficulty to keep rehat in Punja India)

As mentioned by Ds and acknowledged by yourselfabout the ten step point in above post I also believe that Becoming khalsa is the Peak of Spirtual journey in sikh way of life and offocurse would need Matching internal strength otherwise Just if some body want to immitate it then he will be in trouble and will suffer 


Now I agree france is a special case and I agree that till sikhs win their write to wear turban they should try follow the agreed alternative as accepted by Government there and with God's will this problem will be solved in coming time 

But If you are also including to this the problem the problem people face in Uk and canda for example 

They cut theie hair just to fit in just to look more pleasant or make their life easy or something like that then obviously this shows the amount of their internal strenght to follow sikhi 
And I am more than happy that they do so ( cut their hair)  because it become useless if dont get  it or understand it and will give rise to hipocracy  In this situation as well their is nothing against the Rehat if you have strenght to keep it 

Now about eating Halal by the Pak Sikh soilders 

well I think If he make it a point he will get Vegetarian Food 
And I hradly know how much that soilder is into sikhi we are just using the hypothetical situation 

As per understand I have I think for a sikh there is no problem in eating meat but guruji Prohibited halal due the fact of sacrificial nature of it and the opressive element of it at thattime ( every body had to eat halal if they wanted meat)

I tell you my experience I live here with lot of peopels from Pakistan and Iran and obviously they eat Halal
They invited me for Dinner and then we had as usuall the disscusion aout halal why sikhs dont eat it 
I explained to them about the two pints that first I am not allowed the sacrificial food and second Historical one
But the situation here was different because every body of us there were of scintific mind set( all doctors )

They also accused me of being ritualistic and told me that sikhs are not ritualistic and they asked me for solution as per will of akal the solution that came to my mind was 
On the dinner table in front of every body I put my mind to Akal and Did ardass make the food non sacrificial in the same way iy was made sacrificial by reading Kalma by Muslim butcher 

 know some people will object ti this but This is what Akal has given me understanding If some body can make food sacrificial by reading Kalma I can make it non sacrificial in the same way their no chemical change involve in both the processes . 
But I just made my point to them that I am not allowed Sacrificial food so I have to do it and they were more than happy with that 


at last Sikhism is living religion and is not ritualistic so we have rehat but it is not ritual but our spirtual tool and Akal always help you just have to be willing to take it 



Jatinder Singh


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## kds1980 (Dec 23, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

   i agree with you there is nothing wrong in eating meat but isn,t halaal cruely
slaughtered meat


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 24, 2005)

Gurfateh
Today das met a missioary who was saying that making Halal as tabbo in us was a ploy of Hindus to blaock our union with Muslims.
This is needed to be adjgudged.

But we were unaniomous that we see God in all and so have no diffreance between blood and flesh(main reason for Halal) so it is ideaological and for health also animal killed with pain is not OK so if Halal is done after giving pain killer Das can say it may not be still Kutha.

But das wil avoid to eat it.

In Muslim dominated Area without Sikhs at all das eats fish,pork or animal killed by self.

Learn to kill Hare or bird by chopping neck.Best of luck.In west anyway where Halal is sereved it is writtan while west people kill animal with stunning by electricution and then klling and as per Bhai Kahan Singh Ji Nabha animal kiled by Elecricity can be consumed by us.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 24, 2005)

Dear Vijaydeep and KDS


I differ a bit on the idea of pain involved in killing animal 

It is kind of hypocracy  if you are killing animal then offcourse their is ging to be pain and now you want eat it when their is minimum pain involved. on scientific bases it is really hard to prove which method is less painful many islamic institutes claim halal to be least pain ful but i hardly believe them and in western world where farms are big industry animal are treated badly even before kiling them so anyway lot of pain is involved . And if some body has personal experience of killing a animal ( i think vijaydeep has) then he knows that when you cut the head od hen even in one blow its rest fo body goes into voilent movements and you have to hold it for some time so assuming it to be painless is not good idea 
The best thing as per my knowledge is jatka of animal like goat ( and not poultry) where the animal has no idea what is going to happen and they just feed it and in aflash of second head is removed so it is best way yo kill 

and i think halal is prohibited due to other reason and not due to pain involved in killing .well i can be wromg on that  
but methods could be devised in mordern science to kill animal peacefully and painless manner if somebody takes initiative

Jatinder Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 24, 2005)

Gurfateh
Dear Jatinder Singh Ji,

Das was just thinking that after head of fowl is off from neck then concetin of brain is cut of from spine and no transfering of signal of pain from body goes to brin which  by that time lies on ground.

while if a blood vessle is cut which lets the blood be drained out till death by anemia but spine intact it may appear that pain of death by loose of blood and pain in neck will be more.

Das was thinking that hen is vertabrate and may be spine of hen be having bone marrow plus nerous system taking impulse to brain.
das any way does not know much as he is not from mediacl side.

Das hope to find more from you.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 24, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear KDS Ji,


First we need t have faith in God and then our action by will of God are our code of conduct or what we do keeping faith in mind.


Without faith rahit is useless.Only if Rahit can bring faith then only it has any value.


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2005)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> wjkk
> wjkf
> dr.khalsa ji please be fair and tell that is it possible to keep rehat in  some places.i mean you can keep rehat in india uk canada and may be in us but what about other countries.the sikh who joined pak army have to eat halaal meat as i don;t think they are going to give him vegetarian or jhatka food
> similarly sikhs are facing lot of problems in france and other countries what option they have should they leave their jobs or businesses to move to toher countries



vijaydeep ji please answer my these questions


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

   is it possuble to keep rehat in some places and if you are trapped in such a situation then what to do


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2005)

btw my views are that rehat was the neccesity of that time thats why guru gobind singh ji started it.if 5ks and rehat are for all times then why guru nanak dev ji didn't started it.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 24, 2005)

Dear Vijaydeep Singh


Yes I got your point about spnal cord and brain and you are very right that we precieve main trough thalmic centres in brain and if head is cut off very quickly it should not be causing pain to brain because even though there is movement in the rest of the body  but the pain cant be percieved because signal cant reach brain
and the same is true for all animals and yes hen is also vertebrate like us  as it has spinal cord so the same for it 

Thanks ofr your disscusion and now I can say that yes jatka is less pain less but jsut as a reminder the meat we get in Superstores in Western world and now even in india is not jatka and I think one should learn to do Jatkha as it helps when one is alone and canyt get jatkha from other source 

About cutting big blood vessel just like in hallal its just similar to a persom dying due to massive bleeding in which you loose blood an d your heart start racing fast and it try to fulfill needs of body with the less amount of blood available so more speed so it gives you the feeling of impending doom or death and lot of fear arises in a organism and so it releases lot of stress harmones and chemical trying to save it so it may be said that such a meat contains stress ormones if eaten fresh 




Jatinder Singh


Jatinder Singh


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

     jhatka is available in india.chickens are sold live in india and anybody can 
see jhatka in front of their eyes i myself  had purchased live chickens.and their are meat shops owned by sikhs which sell jhatka


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2005)

btw i have heard that animal does not feel pain even in halaal because
at that time animal is in state of shock


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## drkhalsa (Dec 24, 2005)

> btw i have heard that animal does not feel pain even in halaal because
> at that time animal is in state of shock


 
yes animal is in hypovolemic shock due to loss of blood but it is really very painful(mentally more than physical )and full of fear when you go in such shock   as same thing we observe in humans going into such shock

Jatinder Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 25, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das is addressing the concerns raisded by KDS ji.

In fact at mnay instance of his life after becoing Sikh das may not have carried 5ks like while swiming or say wrestling.


It is wrong and ritualistics to say that we must have 5ks alwayson body as a ritual like put short or Kachhera in one leg while making love with wife.

Yes there are some codes upto lie that.

It all satrted by Nihungs that as they are True in Panth since they were made and they could not survive had they be so ritualists while be in WAr against mighty Moghuls or Afghans.

They had no code in general and were able to resist foe with practical way.But by this there was a scope of thier ideal code gettinh rot.

Anyway in time of comfert they stuck to five keys yet they wanted that tradition to be alive.

This lead to birth of class in Nihungs called Bibecki or one who has descreation but in real that person in nihngs is one who follows very strict code of conduct in life.

All 5ks all the time,eating food made by Sikhs,eating in all iron etc.Such people were also volunteers who kept as a model for ideal conditions or a sort of rreserves showing life in ideal conditons,but Bibeckis were seldom used in wars etc.As there code was rendered them of little use.

Later on some of our reformers have tried to make bebcki rahit for all Sikhs all togather a ritual and that lead to many youngsters leaving the panth.

Das discuused and has seen Maryada of Tenth Guru.In Dasham Granth last page code says that 5ks are not something new but contiuniation of past.

Sarblog Granth talks Guru giving sermons to Sikhs decorated by 3 Mudras.

so at the time of Guru nanbak Dev Ji there were Trya Mudras or 3ks.
\
Kachchh,Kes,Kirpan and that also optional as so far any Guru did not give Guruhood as by taking baptism by Sikhs(Khalsa) themselves .

Das has seen sword of guru Nanak recovered from orrisa at Patna Sahib abd he is Gurudev after Akal who tought weaponary to Sikhs for thier martial arts.

Bhai Mardan was told to keep uncut hairs also.Lastly Kachchhera was also told to be kept for higher charector ,das will try to see if we still have old Kachchhera realted to First Nine Gurus still with us.

Then it happended twice in the life of Tenth Master as per Sau Sakhi.

once a Sikh was caought in war by Muslims,his hairs were cut,He was forecfully made to read Kalima,his gusal was done and he was made to eat thier food.

Getting an occaision to flea he ran away and reported to Guru.Guru was told all about this.

Guru asked him ,did you had company of turkani ie had intercourse with her.

He said no.Guru said that your Sikhi is intact.

Sikhi does not go by force(Jor).It goes if mind is diverted from teaching ie willfully act of difinace are done .

Again during Ucch the peer episode same term that Sikhi does not go by forece was repeated.

When Bhai Dharm Singh Ji,Daya Singh Singh Ji and Maan Singh ji were foreced to eat food with Muslims Guru told them to eat after putting Kirpan and twa Prasad saying into food.

They got taste just like that of Karrah Prasad(it is only about taste as it is eaten after Kirpan Bheta ,it was not turned into Karrah Prasad or Kher but might have remained the same food perhaps Halal).

so again it was said that by adverse circumstances and by force any such anti Sikh acts forced upon us to be done do not take way our Sikhi.

We see in Rahit Maryada by sgpc it is writtan that willfully shaving or eating Halal leads to Tankha or Patithood.Say if some one cheats Das to eat Halal or when no food is there and das is compelled to eat Halal then in those cases Das can appear in front of Panj Piaras only in second case and that too may not be called in for Tankha.

and soforth say during operation if some shaving is done on body then that may also not go in for Tankha by Panj Piaras.

but it doed matter that Panj Piaras are from which idealogy.

Are they from Missionaries or say Orthodox or from some ritualistics back grounds.


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## kds1980 (Dec 28, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

    sorry vijaydeep ji i was busy so i was unable to reply.
now my other questinons .you said triah mudra was essential befors 5ks
is their any solid evidence that our gurus make it mandatory because i found sikh history highly doubtful.
now the main question if guru gobind singh ji or any other guru wanted sikhs to keep 5ks or triah mudra why they
added a hymn in guru granth sahib directing sikhs to keep them.


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## kds1980 (Dec 28, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf
sorry vijaydeep ji i was busy so i was unable to reply.
now my other questinons .you said triah mudra was essential befors 5ks
is their any solid evidence that our gurus make it mandatory because i found sikh history highly doubtful.
now the main question if guru gobind singh ji or any other guru wanted sikhs to keep 5ks or triah mudra why they
added a hymn in guru granth sahib directing sikhs to keep them.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 29, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear Kds JI,


By this time you will be aware that Das is not Guru Granth Sahib purist.

Das relies on other texts and Archelogical evidance also.Unlike due to Chrisitan influnece many of out reformers are trying to make bible like interpetations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji as protestants do.

Das can only prove that evidance from other sources like Three Mudras like Swrod,Uncut Hairs and Kachhera like shorts are not contradictory to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

As per verse of St Kabeer Ji,Behold that as brave who fights for poor.Sword could be conformity.

Lust as five vices could give as symbolic meaning of Kachchherah.

and Hairs being uncut as Guru opposed Jains for removing hairs which makes their intellect low gives us signal for uncut hairs verse in Guru Granth Sahib Starts with Sir Ghutte Saitani or Satanic with head perhpahs shaven.Here Guru tells that without hairs intellect is low.


Then why did not this appear in Guru Granth Sahib JI?

Guru at that times were aware that Sikhs will follow thier tradtionas as they have told so no record was needed but as Tenth Master saw that some imposters tried to interpolate So does he gave them in writing of Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth and in both he said that it is as per tradtion and nothing new.


We could see that Cocept of taking Vak(holy sermon),Santookh,Prakash,Ardas starting with with Tu Thakur..,Miri Piri etc. are not at all writtan in Guru Granth Sahib Ji but are there as tradition started by Guru but in comformity with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Last thing which is very much important is that what das tinks that Guru Granth Saihb Ji were not meant for Sikhs but for whole of the world.While First Master preached not a new faith but to have faith in God to all mankind.

Only those who wanted to be like him joined him as Sikh.Tenth Master only made it consolidated Third faith as we see from history of various sources that unlike First Guru Aurnazeb Rahmat ul Alhe also wanted to combine mankind into one Faith by force.Guru Ji wanted it to be one with love.As challenge to poltics by sprituality then Tenth Master told him that God can make 3 out of 2 if there is force by politics to make 2 as 1.

That 3rd faith will also make 2 merging in three but with love.

As per Vars of Bhai Gurdas I and II and verse of Bhatts,Satta Balvand,Baba Sunder Ji in Guru Granth Sahib Ji,it is clear that concept of Guru Panth was there ie Sikhs are equal to Guru so Guru knew that Maryada or code was to be known by Sikhs also.

But to make it recorded as Panth was to spread more in offensive and victorius manner did Tenth Master recordeed them also.  Das think before Tenth Master Gurus did not felt is essinatial to record that in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## devinesanative (Dec 29, 2005)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> Dear Kds JI,
> 
> ...


 

I completely agree with you Now , as your reply reflects sikhism for whole mankind and as per in confirmity of the First Master Gurunanak dev ji .


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 29, 2005)

Gurfateh

Othodox or Sanatan Sikhs say that Panth or Dharam is here since world is made.


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## kds1980 (Dec 29, 2005)

Last thing which is very much important is that what das tinks that Guru Granth Saihb Ji were not meant for Sikhs but for whole of the world.While First Master preached not a new faith but to have faith in God to all mankind.

wjkk
wjkf

     i beleive that any person that beleive that guru granth sahib is his
guru is sikh irrespective of whether he keep kesh or rehat.so guru granth sahib is only for sikhs.you cannot beleive in quran,bible guru granth sahib
at a time .quran says about judgement day and heaven and while guru granth sahib  says about reincarnation and mukti


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## devinesanative (Dec 29, 2005)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> Last thing which is very much important is that what das tinks that Guru Granth Saihb Ji were not meant for Sikhs but for whole of the world.While First Master preached not a new faith but to have faith in God to all mankind.
> 
> wjkk
> wjkf
> ...


 

You are right kds80 . It seems ,as we three of us have tuned into each others frequencies.

To have Faith , one should first have strong belief in himself , then only he/she will have faith in God to all man kind .

Its a simple line but if all people start believing this then the whole world will be a heaven and no one will have to live in Fairy Tale Dream of heaven or any thing else.


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## kds1980 (Dec 29, 2005)

Das can only prove that evidance from other sources like Three Mudras like Swrod,Uncut Hairs and Kachhera like shorts are not contradictory to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

wjkk
wjkf

    i am not saying that these things are contrardictory but if a person
does not keep them due working condition or any other factor can he be as sikh? because what i do not like is that sikhs give to much importance to these things


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## devinesanative (Dec 29, 2005)

Dear Kds80 ,

If a person is weak from inside , even if you give him a sword , it won't solve any purpose .

If a person has no control over his brain and mind even if he/she wears more 10 kacheras , he/she is bound to cross limits .

If a person has kept more than kilometre long hairs , but is a thick headed , which is known as Adab in punjabi , nothing can be done .


If you are strong from inside , and as belief and faith in yourself , you have belief and faith in God automatically.

If you have belief and faith in God , then you have belief and faith in God automatically.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 29, 2005)

Gurfateh

In Guru Granth Sahib Ji First Guru gives correct meanings of Islam and Vaishnavsm to thier followers.
We as a Sikh can understadn that.

Then coming to hold Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Guru.It is not writtan in Guru Granth Sahib to behold scripture as Guru but rather to behold Gurubani or verse as Guru.

Yes in Sarbloh Granth it is said but along side this we have been told to keep Treh Mudra.

As er holy Kuran person can have salvation on three terms.
1.Have faith in Alllah
2.Do good tasks
3.Have faith in day when you will be judged by God.

in 3rd our thing is that we do not interpret it as one day for all ie Qayamt but days for individuals.

Das just wants to say that if we study Holy Vedas,Holy Bible and Holy Kuran in the light of Guru Granth Sahib Ji we will be able get more logical meanings of the same.

das wants you to have a look on links below.
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/epilogue_sikh.html



> In fact, *all* who expound and love the truth and the message of universal peace and *Ekta* (Oneness/brotherhood) we respect and bow our heads in reverence to, be they of whatever faith, race, caste, colour or creed. What we are today, be it a Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc., is all according to the will of Sanatan God. In Adi Guru Durbar, Akali Guru Nanak writes:
> ‘We have no power to speak or stay silent.
> We have no power to ask or give.
> We have no power to live or die.
> ...


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 29, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das anyway gives a give apluause to DS Ji.
to KDS Ji ,
Das wants to repeat that primaryly it is faith in Akal that is must and Rahit will come next only.


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