# Transgenderism . Right Or Wrong?



## Neelum kaur (Oct 5, 2012)

Since I was 8 years old I wanted to become a boy, I told my family and friends about it but they said it was a phase and in a few months/years I'll get over it, but that's the thing I never did.

As I grew older I took more likings into girls rather then guys, but to me it felt right. So when I was 13 years old I came out to everyone that I'm a lesbian.

Buh now things have changed, from a full on lesbian I want to be a transsexual, I'd been thinking of it since even before I knew I was lesbian, so that is why I joined this site today so I can ask questions and get answers for what ever I wanted to know.

I know that its believed to be that God said we should never judge people .. But even after explaining myself time and time again I still get people who look down on my and talk about me behind my back but when they want/need something I would b the first person they would ask.

And now that I'm 18 I really need help, I want to be a good daughter and a good Sikh but I'm a lesbian who wants to be transsexual .. What do yu think, am I doing the right thing by making myself happy and making myself feel comfortable with the person I want to be or shall I listen to people who constantly want to put me down and who think I'm doing wrong .. Please tell me what yu think.


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## Kamala (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: transgenderism .. right or wrong?*

Your choice your life. I don't think doing that is bad at all but it isn't something I would do.


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## Luckysingh (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: transgenderism .. right or wrong?*

As a human, you have the right to do whatever you want.
I'm not sure if you are saying that you want to have medical procedures to make you more masculine or if you just want to be dressing up as a man.

This is an issue about sexuality more than anything.
Asking sikhs to look at at from a sikh point of view is not going to help you make your decision, because as I say it's about sexuality and not religion.

What you do personally is fine and shouldn't get in the way of practicing sikhism.
But in terms of social circles and sikhism, you should decide exactly what gender you want to be perceived as and stick to it.
For example,. No one is going to be impressed seeing you in the Gurdwara or elsewhere and using ladies washroom's one day and then the mens on the other!!

If you were to ask a more enlightened sikh, then they would advise you not to be worrying about such as to be choosing the way of the gurmukh and having more love for the lord  than any gender you want, will be more of a regard and achievement.
At that stage, issues like these become absolutely worthless.

Sexuality as such isn't addressed directly in the Guru Granth Sahib ji but you may read plenty of poetry by Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Dasam Granth.
Here, there are many descriptions of how one can conquer the inner beast within themselves (ie the sexuality urges..etc..) and to maintain more control of their mind.
The sexuality is not addressed as taboo, but more of a battle of power within us.
Many of the references given in the above are to hindu mythology, but the concepts and ideas are good and helpful in portraying the message as long as one doesn't get attached to the myths themselves!


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 6, 2012)

If you have come forth for discussion, I would like to say don't go for transgender operation. It is fine to cross-dress, feel the way you wish to feel. Changing your body's anatomy would be hard on you. If you do so, you will get neither a homosexual or heterosexual female partner. And some of your body parts will lose function. I guess those would be like an appendix to you. But still. You might get new body by plastic surgery. But that would be that.

People and society might go against you. You can still be a good child of your parents and a good Sikh. There is nothing wrong in doing something you wish to do, as long as you are not harming someone. But if you wish to make such a big change in life, with this huge impact, think clearly. Will you be able to walk down that road for the rest of your life? (Remember you might have to walk alone!)


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 6, 2012)

_/|\_  Sat Nam

Sister ji 

Thank you, first of all, for being so courageous to share what many of us would be too timid to share.  I found this so inspirational.

I am part of the lgbt community also.  

Are you familiar with Sarbat.net, an organization for the lgbt community?
http://www.sarbat.net/

I think only you will know what is right for you.  My one concern is your age.  You are very young.  Not that a young person doesn't know;  you have already felt this way for many years.  

Have you considered counseling?  I would recommend that to anyone who is considering gender reassignment.  Not to be "set straight" or whatever, just to have a source of support and a place to go to sort it all out.  It will be a long difficult journey in some ways and a huge transition.  I think everyone going through this should have some support.

How does your family feel about you doing this?

Have you read Chaz Bono's autobiography?  I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I think he candidly shares all the blessings and struggles of his own gender reassignment.  

I'm glad to see so many supporting your life style here.  I hope you will keep sharing your experiences here as time goes by.

Blessings, Love and Light to you...
Nam Jiwan


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## findingmyway (Oct 6, 2012)

Neelum kaur said:


> Since I was 8 years old I wanted to become a boy, I told my family and friends about it but they said it was a phase and in a few months/years I'll get over it, but that's the thing I never did.
> 
> As I grew older I took more likings into girls rather then guys, but to me it felt right. So when I was 13 years old I came out to everyone that I'm a lesbian.
> 
> ...



Neelum ji,
I'm imaging this was a very difficult post for you to write to well done for your honesty. Please remember all views given here are personal opinions only (including mine) so please take the advice given in that spirit and not as gospel. Here are my suggestions in the mix!

1) Most importantly, consider counselling to help you deal with your situation and help you decide your future. I can't stress the importance of this enough.
2) Gender identity disorder (I don't want to call it a disorder but thats the current medical terminology) has been much researched and thought to have a biological basis. The best people to speak to about this is medical professionals. Also you are not the only member of the forum who has gender identity disorder. I forget his name thought as he hasn't visited for sometime 
3) There has been much debate on homosexuality so I won't go into that here again. The only point I want to emphasise is that whatever path you choose do not live controlled by lust. That is what Gurbani warns against. Live a truthful life of commitment.
All the best!


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 6, 2012)

Sat Nam _/|\_

I apologize for referring to Chaz with feminine pronouns in my last post.  I have corrected the pronouns using the proper gender for the pronoun.

Nam Jiwan


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## Neelum kaur (Oct 7, 2012)

I want to say thanks to each and everyone of you for all the advice and support it really does mean a lot to me.

And I have also spoken to my family about this but only some of them agree, my mom knows how much I'm suffering and I have actually been diagnosed with 'gender identity disorder' but even after knowing tha I hate living like this she still don't want me to have the sex change not because she thinks its wrong but she is afraid of what my dad and others will think.

I try to see life from different perspectives but the only one that matters is the way God and my family see me, I would love to make everyone happy but then that means putting my happiness aside.

I went counselling for 2years for this matter .. But still I'm confused on what is right, buh I'm going to have a final talk with my family and see what they say, other then that I really can't do nothing more .. Iv been waiting a long time for this and I'm not going to ever let a chance like this just go away, I have decided to have the sex change.


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 7, 2012)

Sat Nam _/|\_

Neelum ji

I'm hoping your will remain active here at the forum and allow us to be part of this journey as it unfolds.

I don't your gender identity should be considered a disorder.  You are very thoughtful and you  are not suffering from an illness.  You are in touch with your heart.

That's my view on this.  I think it is important to take into consideration things like your father's disapproval.  Not that it should stop you from following your heart, but so that you work through this one day at a time.  

Blessed Be, dear one.
 mundahug


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 7, 2012)

WJKK WJKF
Sorry,

I can´t agree with you , changing your Gender is against Wahegurus Hukam... Why you think Waheguru make a you a girl? Sorry I can´t empathize with you Sister/brother ?? Whatver... I don´t know I am confused. Anyway, this is the same thing like Cutting hair or not ... If you alredy decided to do what you want there is no point in Sikhi.. IF you believe in Khalsa and Guru  Gobind Singh ji, you also believe in Guru jis "Rehit" and this Rehit shows us the limits. Were we would be without Rules? Were would we go?  If we follow just our "evil" mind - the mind/Mann everytime wants other things...   Maybe this sounds hard... but you just need stop watching one side , you need to look at the whole pictures all views. and not only the one you want...  Yes Sikhi is openminded and won´t refuse or exclude homosexual people or whatever ... But if these kind of people would go the way of Gurus the way of Sikhi.. they would themself stop with this thinking...This is a very materialistic view.. IF you reall want to merge back to god - you would take life as it is.. Why you want to change for the "Maya"? If your REal AIM is God? For what reason?  I can´t agree with most people posted here..

Maybe you don´t listen to me or don´t take my statement as full, because I am "young",
 but I can´t change it this your thing.. I just wanted to say.

WJKK WJKF


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## Luckysingh (Oct 7, 2012)

That's a very honest opinion and you are telling exactly how you feel about this without being judgemental.
In all honesty, there are many of us who have the same attitude. 
We can't accept the disorder because it doesn't fall in line with personal beliefs.
Many of us say we are accepting but if it comes down to your own son or daughter that comes to you with the same issue- then all of a sudden it becomes a different story and you start making exceptions.. ie.. ''it can't be really... Are you really sure..??...Have some time to think over it........blah..blah...''
It's because we always accept the 'other' person but when it's someone in your immediate family, then it becomes hard to imagine and believe!!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 7, 2012)

TIGERSTYLEZ Ji....

GYAAN doesnt depend on "age"...thats why our Founder Father GURUS SAHIBAANS...have set an example of every conceivable type..we Have GURUS form BIRTH - Guru Nanak Ji who was AAD GURU till the Day of His JYOTI JYOT SAMANNA....then we Had Guru Angad Ji who became GURU at MID AGE..we had GURU AMARDASS JI who became GURU at Age 70++..we had Child GURUS...   GURU HARGOBIND SAHIB JI...Guru HARKISHAN SAHIB  JI and GURU GOBIND SINGH JI...
We had GURUS that practised HINDU RITUALS for DECADES...(Bhai lehnna Ji and Bahi Amardass Ji)...we had Gurus that GREW UP in Households that had FATHER/Grandfather GURU - Guru Arjun Ji's Grandfather was Guru Amardass Ji and FATHER was GURU RAMDASS JI....Guru Teg bahadur Ji had Father Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.. Cousin Guru HAR RAI JI..and  great grand-Child Guru HARKISHAN JI before He attained GURGADEE !! AFTER the Passage of 3 GURUS who were BORN later than Him..

SO GYAAN is GYAAN..age of the "Gyani" doesnt matter..he he...so IF a person doesnt wnat to "listen" to YOU..just because you are "young"..I am sure he/she wont listen to a 100 Fauja Singh Too !! (just because hes too old ??)..so DONT WORRY..just continue to offer your thoughts...freely ....:singhsippingcoffee:jios...


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 7, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> That's a very honest opinion and you are telling exactly how you feel about this without being judgemental.
> In all honesty, there are many of us who have the same attitude.
> We can't accept the disorder because it doesn't fall in line with personal beliefs.
> Many of us say we are accepting but if it comes down to your own son or daughter that comes to you with the same issue- then all of a sudden it becomes a different story and you start making exceptions.. ie.. ''it can't be really... Are you really sure..??...Have some time to think over it........blah..blah...''
> It's because we always accept the 'other' person but when it's someone in your immediate family, then it becomes hard to imagine and believe!!!



LuckySingh ji thanks for response..
Yes, you are right in this case we are all hypocrites, "figuratively". But to be honest.. even if it would be my child or brother.. I would say the same..  Straight ahed. Why should I lie and tell her/him that everything will work out fine? If we dont have guideline... we would all split up on several points.. like we are now sadly.... So from this example you can see what I mean...  I would simply say that to my child, if you are willing to stay in Sikhi, you somewhere have to make compromises.. We all want something.. Example: My mind is full of Kaam, and if Guru ji wouldn´t say me to control. I simply would go mad- and worst case do a bad thing. My intention is not to offend someones feeling but to see it like it is.


@ Gyaniji

you explained that nice, and you are right on this point. Maybe because you have Gyaan as well?



I still think that I am too naive, and still far away from what a gursikh is.  thats why I said it, I know about all gurus, but I would never dare to say that I have the knowledge.. I just know one thing and that is : I know that I know nothing... I am just a bad mixxed coctaill... Somedays I am crazy, happy interested in any kind of things and somedays.. I am just silent ,thinking, "depressed"? I dont know how to explain ...  I just feel so empty...  I still have much to learn.. So here you can see as well what my Mann does... and I just need to find the balance of both the compensation.. and this I only got through Sikhi - through rehit - trough guidelines.. If I just determine one side where I would go?

BTW: I am sorry, If I wrote something confusing, since my english isn´t the best and it is late.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 8, 2012)

> WJKK WJKF
> Sorry,
> 
> I can´t agree with you , changing your Gender is against Wahegurus Hukam... Why you think Waheguru make a you a girl?



In my opinion Waheguru had nothing to do with being born a girl. Waheguru sets the rules and leaves Creation to sort itself out. If we adopt this line of thinking, then Waheguru is also responsible for cancer, aids, destruction, earthquakes. This is a very Abrahamic attitude where everything happens for a reason, and everything is written and foretold. Hukam is not fate, it is where your will merges into what is true, and your actions become 'the right thing' to do. 




> Anyway, this is the same thing like Cutting hair or not ... If you  alredy decided to do what you want there is no point in Sikhi..



I am not quite sure what this has to do with cutting hair, there are women with histories of cancer that have breasts lopped off in order to minimise the risk of such. It is well known that sometimes people can be born in the wrong body, now this is bad enough, but to then intimate that some celestial power knowingly created this situation is not something I am willing to accept. Although Sikhism is about acceptance, how can you possibly know that gender reassignment is not within Hukam? How can you know what suffering people go through in the wrong body. Is the suffering of a man born as a woman any less than the suffering of a man born with no arms? would you ask that the armless man cease from looking into the options of false limbs because of Hukam? because he was doing something against the will of God? Again, in my opinion, the primary directive of Sikhsim is to offer yourself as a slave to Creator in the assistance of Creation. In order to be a slave to Creation, one needs to ensure one is at peace and able to assist others. To my mind, if one wishes to change gender, there are many opportunities for good seva to others in the same boat. The Sikh angle should not be 'do this', or 'do that', it should be 'find your peace and help others who cannot'.



> IF you believe in Khalsa and Guru  Gobind Singh ji, you also believe in Guru jis "Rehit" and this Rehit shows us the limits.



There were many Muslims and Hindus that believed in Guru Gobind Singhji, they also remained Muslims and Hindus. 



> Were we would be without Rules?



I hate rules, it intimates something you do not wish to do for a greater good. Better to have understanding, compassion, love



> Were would we go?  If we follow just our "evil" mind - the mind/Mann  everytime wants other things...   Maybe this sounds hard... but you just  need stop watching one side , you need to look at the whole pictures  all views. and not only the one you want



I find it amusing that you assume this is some sexual need or want. This woman has been born into the wrong body, it must be an awful painful experience, the only 'evil' is that religion is being used as a stick to prolong this agony. 



> IF you reall want to merge back to god - you would take life as it is..



What is it with this attitude that everything is about merging back to God. I could not care less about merging back with God, I never demerged from God, so it is a pointless concept. And if everything we do is so that God lets us back in again, then everything we do has no meaning whatsoever. The only reason to do anything, is that it is the right thing to do, those that act keeping one eye on eternal salvation, are no better than suicide bombers with one eye on heaven. As for taking life as it is, this is not within Sikhi, one should do ones best. 



> I still think that I am too naive, and still far away from what a  gursikh is.  thats why I said it, I know about all gurus, but I would  never dare to say that I have the knowledge.. I just know one thing and  that is : I know that I know nothing... I am just a bad mixxed  coctaill... Somedays I am crazy, happy interested in any kind of things  and somedays.. I am just silent ,thinking, "depressed"? I dont know how  to explain ...  I just feel so empty...  I still have much to learn.. So  here you can see as well what my Mann does... and I just need to find  the balance of both the compensation.. and this I only got through Sikhi  - through rehit - trough guidelines.. If I just determine one side  where I would go?



Yes, I know, I suffer the same, on a different day, I may have agreed with you. However the condition that we suffer is unknown, it has no cure, we will suffer it to the day we die. Let us not inflict the same on those that know the cure peacesignmundahug


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 8, 2012)

[/QUOTE]In my opinion Waheguru had nothing to do with being born a girl. Waheguru sets the rules and leaves Creation to sort itself out. If we adopt this line of thinking, then Waheguru is also responsible for cancer, aids, destruction, earthquakes. This is a very Abrahamic attitude where everything happens for a reason, and everything is written and foretold. Hukam is not fate, it is where your will merges into what is true, and your actions become 'the right thing' to do. 





> This isn´t an abrahamic view, nor I blieve in such a view. I never said that everything is foretold. Waheguru is this all the whole Maya? So Waheguru is illnes, happiness, love , cancer whatever.. I don´t blame waheguru nor I would ever dare to do this.  But with your logic we can´t explain things. For example physics. Physics is reavealing the universe and trying to explain that everything has a reason. So is this false as well?
> Harry ji, what are "the right thing" to do? If we just do everything we want and only accept views that are like like-minded people, what would you call right? In everyones view this "rightness" is other.. and thats why I said rules( I more meant guidelines) for what is the "right" or "bad" thing.


I am not quite sure what this has to do with cutting hair, there are women with histories of cancer that have breasts lopped off in order to minimise the risk of such. It is well known that sometimes people can be born in the wrong body, now this is bad enough, but to then intimate that some celestial power knowingly created this situation is not something I am willing to accept. Although Sikhism is about acceptance, how can you possibly know that gender reassignment is not within Hukam? How can you know what suffering people go through in the wrong body. Is the suffering of a man born as a woman any less than the suffering of a man born with no arms? would you ask that the armless man cease from looking into the options of false limbs because of Hukam? because he was doing something against the will of God? Again, in my opinion, the primary directive of Sikhsim is to offer yourself as a slave to Creator in the assistance of Creation. In order to be a slave to Creation, one needs to ensure one is at peace and able to assist others. To my mind, if one wishes to change gender, there are many opportunities for good seva to others in the same boat. The Sikh angle should not be 'do this', or 'do that', it should be 'find your peace and help others who cannot'. 





> Paji, but how we find peace? Why should we waste our time with such things, when it is limited and our aim is to merge backto the truth? Our mind will never find peace until we live the life with that , what was granted. Thats why I said our mind is "evil", without "God, Waheguru", it will never find peace...


There were many Muslims and Hindus that believed in Guru Gobind Singhji, they also remained Muslims and Hindus. 





> That is fine, thats why I am talking to be a Gurus Sikh, a Khalsa...


I hate rules, it intimates something you do not wish to do for a greater good. Better to have understanding, compassion, love 





> Paji, we all hate rules, but we need guidelines, or our life would be very confusing.. there would be no time, you wouldnt know when and where the bus will come etc... And you need Guidelines/rules you cannot  do these things with compassion and love.


I find it amusing that you assume this is some sexual need or want. This woman has been born into the wrong body, it must be an awful painful experience, the only 'evil' is that religion is being used as a stick to prolong this agony. 





> No, it is there to find peace. and altough SIkhi isn´t a religion we can´t say that about Sikhi..


What is it with this attitude that everything is about merging back to God. I could not care less about merging back with God, I never demerged from God, so it is a pointless concept. And if everything we do is so that God lets us back in again, then everything we do has no meaning whatsoever. The only reason to do anything, is that it is the right thing to do, those that act keeping one eye on eternal salvation, are no better than suicide bombers with one eye on heaven. As for taking life as it is, this is not within Sikhi, one should do ones best. 





> I was more talking about merge back to the only and one truth .. figuratively.. metaphorical...  the world is fading paji, we can´t change it , we dont have the power to do that. And like you say before it all depends on the "right things to do", so you can´t put a suicide bomber - who does bad on one stage with someone who is awaiting salvation while doing "good".
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, I suffer the same, on a different day, I may have agreed with you. However the condition that we suffer is unknown, it has no cure, we will suffer it to the day we die. Let us not inflict the same on those that know the cure peacesignmundahug


:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Harry Haller (Oct 10, 2012)

> Harry ji, what are "the right thing" to do? If we just do everything we  want and only accept views that are like like-minded people, what would  you call right? In everyones view this "rightness" is other.. and thats  why I said rules( I more meant guidelines) for what is the "right" or  "bad" thing.


thats a hard one, but in our hearts I think always know what the right thing to do is, once you have stripped the five thieves away, with pure feeling, if that makes sense



> Paji, but how we find peace? Why should we waste our time with such  things, when it is limited and our aim is to merge backto the truth? Our  mind will never find peace until we live the life with that , what was  granted. Thats why I said our mind is "evil", without "God, Waheguru",  it will never find peace...


well for me and you, we find peace when the wolf and the man are singing from the same songsheet. You must remember, I am not a fan of reincarnation, thus, this life is all I have, there is no merging for me, no pearly gates, no eternal life by the side of God. From that point of view, it is hugely important that every living day is spent in some sort of peace, rather than accumulating brownie points to cash in the day I die. I do not think our minds are evil, I think we are uneducated. We look to pleasure in the most basic fashions, unaware that truthful living, seva, connection, bring much much more pleasure, its different, you have to work for it, the most addictive pleasures are the ones that come easy. 



> Paji, we all hate rules, but we need guidelines, or our life would be  very confusing.. there would be no time, you wouldnt know when and where  the bus will come etc... And you need Guidelines/rules you cannot  do  these things with compassion and love.


I do not do rules blind my young friend, I observe the speed limit because I know that if I do not, I may end up in prison, which is not a nice experience, I do not drink, as I know my liver will end up as that of a 90 year old, which is also not a nice experience, I do not do drugs, as I know that certain drugs will bring on a heart attack, and lead me to have surgery, which is definately not a nice experience. I suppose what I am trying to say is that there are rules which make sense, and rules which are there to control. Once humankind gets involved, the whole thing goes to pot! But for people like me, and maybe you, we have to find out for ourself, so that we can see what is man made, and what is from the divine.


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## WWW (Oct 25, 2012)

Not to be rude, but you cannot change your sex.  You can mutilate your genitalia, but your going to be a girl for the rest of your life.  I think a sex change will put you in the same mental situation you are in now, but with a mutilated vagina.

Sorry to be blunt, not meant in a mean way.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 26, 2012)

> Not to be rude, but you cannot change your sex.



yes, we know this, but you can try and match your inside to your outside. 

Perhaps we could use the same logic to those born with multiple limbs,


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## WWW (Oct 26, 2012)

i disagree, its not a limb, its a chromosome.  I can self identify as a frog, but tattooing my skin green isn't the right course of action.  If the science ever got to the point you could actually change your sex, I would be all for it, but its not, so genital mutilation is just silly IMHO.


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## findingmyway (Oct 26, 2012)

WWW said:


> i disagree, its not a limb, its a chromosome./QUOTE]
> 
> What do you think determines limbs? It is the DNA in our chromosomes that determines almost everything about us including our personality as well as physical body.


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## WWW (Oct 26, 2012)

Exactly.


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## findingmyway (Oct 27, 2012)

WWW said:


> Exactly.



??? I think you have completely misunderstood me. It is the code on those chromosomes that determines our predisposition to so many things including gender dissociation disorder. Environment plays a role in whether those genes are switched on or off and how they are translated from what I have read.


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 27, 2012)

Sat Nam _/|\_

Brothers and sisters, please remember this is more than a debate for the person who started the thread.  It is about someone's life here.  So lets debate about it somewhere else and save the thread here for our friend to discuss the way it feels to face this challenge in life.

IMHO, its not up to me or anyone else here.  It is a decision that has to come from the person.  I think if we go deep inside, we can connect to an internal connection we have always with WaheGuru.  That darkness that comes when we are faced with big challenges can get brighter if we just call on WaheGuru to shed Light on it for us.

Something to think about.  We say God makes someone male or female and its hukam.  In a sense, you could say that about many things related to the body.  Not that I'm comparing gender reassignment to illness, but if we end up with the DNA that causes us to be bipolar or schizophrenic, do we then say its God's will and deny the ill person medication?  If a person is born with a cleft lip, do we say that is hukam and deny them the surgery?

I think there is a reason some people are given this test which leads sometimes to gender reassignment.  And I don't think its an illness.  I believe these people are more like a test for the rest of us.  Accepting the LGBT community is a challenge for the people of this century. 

In the 60s, in the US, it was civil rights marches led by Martin Luther King.  In the 70s, women fought for equality.  In these times, we are faced with the equality of LGBT people.  God must challenge ppl this way for a reason.  

If someone feels their destiny may include gender reassignment, who are we to mess with that destiny.

OK, hopping off the soap box.  As you were!  

Nam Jiwan


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 27, 2012)

Boy George and KD Lang living their truth.

Culture Club live Do you really want to hurt me - YouTube

kd lang "Hallelujah" CSHF 2006 - YouTube

May we all see the Light of the Divine shining in the faces of all we meet...


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## WWW (Oct 28, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> ??? I think you have completely misunderstood me. It is the code on those chromosomes that determines our predisposition to so many things including gender dissociation disorder. Environment plays a role in whether those genes are switched on or off and how they are translated from what I have read.



Ok.  Does mutilating the genitalia change the persons chromosomes?  Kind of back to square one.  I wouldn't doubt that their is a genetic cause, or at least predisposition to this type of disorder, but again, what are you really fixing by giving them a "*****" of sorts... the fact is that the OP would still be a woman.    The OP came in asking for opinions, and its my opinion that she should not do this.  Over the long term, what kind of life is this?  However, I am not a psychiatrist, and I do not know the OP, so my opinion is not based on her personally but on gender switching in general.  I find the practice unethical, and destructive, but, again, im not a shrink.

This is not a small decision, its an absolutely huge decision, and I would suggest to the OP to only do this if she has completely exhausted her other alternatives and thoroughly discussed this with her psychiatrist.


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## Kaylee (May 23, 2013)

Sorry for reviving this thread. I was wondering how the Sikh deal with transexuality and came across this thread. I'm quite happy with most of the repsonses, though I think I can add some information.

Gender comes in many, many variants, not just male or female. I do believe that you cannot change your gender, but it is hard to determine someones, or even your own gender. Determining what chromosomes you have or looking between your legs wont work. At least one in 500 people are born with a gender that does not match with their genitals. Those people are transgender. It is important to remember that they were born transgender and did not choose to be so.

The OP already made very clear that he is male. He did not choose to be male. Becuase of his body, his parents wrongfully determined that he is a girl and decided to raise him as a girl. Now that everyone around him thinks he is a girl, he plays along with the lie, pretending he is a girl.

If the OP would decide to transition, he would not change his gender. He would stay a boy. However, he would stop pretending that he is not a boy. He would stop lying about his gender. Transition is a social process, in which the OP learns to live as the gender he was born with and the people around him start to treat him as the boy he is.

I would strongly suggest that the OP goes into transition. Though he should choose which steps to take when carefully, as transitioning can be very expensive. It is impossible how anyone would react and he could possible be thrown onto the streets, just for telling that he does not want to lie anymore. If that happens, he needs to be able to support himself.

I strongly suggest transition, because living a lie is hard and depressing. And even more, because a lie is not worth living. That is the main reason why many transgenders have considered, attempted or committed suicide. Considering this, transitioning is not much of a choice.

Neelum, how are you doing? What path did you choose? I hope that your family is supportive and helps you on the path that you inevitably have to take.


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## Brother Onam (May 24, 2013)

I remember there was a man a few years ago who thought himself a lizard. He not only had his tongue surgically split in two, he tattooed green scales all over his body and had metal ball-bearings and ridges inserted under his skin to create a crest on his head and reptilian brows.
I guess to some this would be a beautiful and admirable way of somebody liberating themselves to be who they truly feel themselves to be.
There are others, I'm told, who think that the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body, and that the way to undo this mistake is to mangle oneself through frankenstein surgery to vaguely approximate a female's body.
I genuinely feel for the original poster of this topic, and anyone else struggling with this issue, but to think that radical "corrective" surgery and recieving some scientific {censored}tail of hormones from the opposite sex is simply twisted. Whatever the cause of such deep-seated identity problems, I can't believe it is a mistake of the Creator which is then left to us to remedy by surgery; this will yield a freak, not unlike the "lizard-man".
Michael Jackson, until his late forties, with thinning, greying hair and arthritis, was convinced he was a young white boy who never grew up, like his idol, Peter Pan. This might have been fun when he was 12, but, as we have seen, became ever more disturbing as he manifested and acted out these psychoses as he became a middle-aged man. 
I'm not sure what the answer is to these complicated emotions, but I know what the answer is not: attempting to undo the work of the Creator and Lifegiver, and correct His/Her error by giving into, and embracing, and celebrating this aberration. 
Immersing oneself in the Holy Naam is the first purpose of life.


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## spnadmin (May 24, 2013)

SPN permits a wide range of opinions on almost any topic to be posted. Internet forums are after all a place where we should be able to meet and discuss points of view.

Sometimes opinions are supported by the current research on a topic of discussion. Sometimes they are not. Transgenderism is one of those topics. There is research that contradicts the idea that sexual re-assignment is perverse. I encourage all to seek out those studies. It is too easy for a topic that contradicts the values of individuals or groups to turn into a shouting match.

An example. Some people seeking sexual assignment today are not undoing the "work of the Creator." At birth their sexual identity was unclear; their sexual organs were not fully developed. Sometimes surgeons decide, often without input from parents, to "assign" a gender to the newborn and operate on the infant. This procedure is called "normalizing surgery" when performed on a child. The surgeon decided whether the infant was to be a girl or a boy. Later there is psychological confusion when the infant matures into an adult. Female hormones in a male body, or vice versa.  In those cases the "work" of a surgeon, a mortal, is being undone, not the work of the Creator. So lets tread carefully on this subject.

This is a thread warning.

Thank you!


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## Harry Haller (May 24, 2013)

> I remember there was a man a few years ago who thought himself a lizard. He not only had his tongue surgically split in two, he tattooed green scales all over his body and had metal ball-bearings and ridges inserted under his skin to create a crest on his head and reptilian brows.
> I guess to some this would be a beautiful and admirable way of somebody liberating themselves to be who they truly feel themselves to be.


 
The man concerned has a BA in philosophy, maybe we should summon him to this forum so that he can expain himself to you, as far as I know, he is not a Sikh, so is not under any obligation to keep his body intact, it is a free world, I would guess that there is some commercial angle to his attitude, either way, I would wager I would probably get more sense out of him in a conversation than a lot of normal looking people. 



> There are others, I'm told, who think that the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body, and that the way to undo this mistake is to mangle oneself through frankenstein surgery to vaguely approximate a female's body.


 
Interesting thought, so I suppose you are against all surgery, medicine, treatments, as the Lord of the heavens does not make mistakes, so we should let it be, I mean how dare people try and change the divine will. 



> I genuinely feel for the original poster of this topic, and anyone else struggling with this issue, but to think that radical "corrective" surgery and recieving some scientific {censored}tail of hormones from the opposite sex is simply twisted.


 
Hmm as twisted as heart transplants? lung transplants? bypass surgery? where would you draw the line?



> Whatever the cause of such deep-seated identity problems, I can't believe it is a mistake of the Creator which is then left to us to remedy by surgery; this will yield a freak, not unlike the "lizard-man".


 
I do not see much Sikh compassion in the above, just bigotry and hatred, freak is quite a strong word. This is from the camp that we should all take what we were given and make the best of it, hole in the heart? no problem, it is not a mistake, cataracts? oh bad luck there, we must not interfere with the will of the Lord, better get used to darkness!



> I'm not sure what the answer is to these complicated emotions, but I know what the answer is not: attempting to undo the work of the Creator and Lifegiver, and correct His/Her error by giving into, and embracing, and celebrating this aberration.
> Immersing oneself in the Holy Naam is the first purpose of life.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Oh you seem very sure indeed, twisted, freak, aberration, I think you have chosen your words carefully, do tell me how the use of these words confirms your own immersion into the Holy Naam? Also, your definition of Holy Naam would be most interesting.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 24, 2013)

Brother Onam said:


> *There are others, I'm told, who think that the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body, *



Brother Onam ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no interest in going inside your head to see where these kinds of thoughts come from and for what reason?

Out of all your post only the above in bold aroused my curiosity.(The verb *To Arouse* is not used in any sexual connotation)

Why do you have nipples being a man?

Are they on your body for breastfeeding or for piercing, or both?

Or as you eloquently put  it: *the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body.*

Is the above a mistake by *the Lord of the Heavens?*

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Brother Onam (May 24, 2013)

Gurfateh!
I appreciate the clarification; I was really speaking of a total reversal of gender. If somebody is indeed born with anatomically mixed gender, certainly this is an obvious fluke of nature with its own complications. The olympic runner Castor (last name?) from South Africa was a recent example. After much controversy as to whether she was indeed female, it was determined she was mainly female, but with, I guess, some extra male hormones or something.


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## Kaylee (May 25, 2013)

When people encounter someone who behaves in a way that they do not understand, there are 3 common ways, that I have encountered, in which they react:


They accept your differences, but do nut understand how to treat you with those differences. How they treat you is based on what they do know, that you're human. So they treat you as a human, with respect and dignity. I'm rather lucky that my friends and colleagues are in this category.
They want to understand why you are different. They dissect your live to get to know this and treat you as a lab rat, forgetting that you are also human.
They are frightened by you being different. They do not want to respect your differences, but instead want to destroy you. Either by pretending that you do not exist, by ridiculing you, by making your life miserable or worse, by murder.
Unfortunately most people fall into the last category. And unfortunately, transgender people are brutally murdered, a lot. If you are curious, here is a list with dates, names, locations and how they were murdered: http://www.transgenderdor.org/statistics. This year, I'm in the organization for one of the cities remembering their deaths. Some people use their religion to justify their hatred. I find that unfaithful.


It is estimated that 1 in 500 are born transgender: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html. That implies that 12 million transgenders are walking on this earth. If you consider all the hatred they risk by transitioning, then maybe you can imagine how absolutely horrible it must be to live without transitioning. 


Science tends to be much more focused on finding theories that are practical, than theories that are true. For example, Newton's laws are used a lot, despite that it has been proven that they are incorrect. They are used because they are practical. They give good and useful result in practice. 



You can argue whether a Female-to-Male transgender is truly male. However assuming that it is, is just practical. It makes it much easier to understand such person. He cannot behave like a normal girl, because he is not a girl. He can pretend he is and quite definitely already learned how to do that, but he can never truly be female. He can also not be lesbian, because his girlfriend would expect a girl, which he is not. Yes, that means that if he likes girls, he is hetero.  



For those who want to learn more about transsexuality and transgenderism, see: http://lynnconway.com


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## Brother Onam (May 26, 2013)

Dear SPNadmin,
please, I'm just curious why my comment was deleted. I was merely saying that I myself was unqualified to enter higher realms. I was not saying anything about others. Just curious.
                             Praise be to Waheguru


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2013)

Brother Onam ji

All that is needed is to make the same point in the deleted post without using negative labels.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (May 27, 2013)

My thoughts.  We know that the female and male brains are constructed and function quite differently.  I think it is not stretching credulity to suggest that at some developmental stage a male brain might develop in a female body or vice versa.  I have known quite a few transagendered people and they seemed perfectly genuine to me.


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## Harry Haller (May 27, 2013)

> For those who want to learn more about transsexuality and transgenderism, see: http://lynnconway.com<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
can you imagine someone like this spending the rest of their life in a male body, I think this website counters all and any arguments


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## Brother Onam (May 27, 2013)

The guru himself called himself a worm; I wonder how he might fare in this forum. 

ਦਇਆ  ਕਰਹੁ  ਕਿਰਮ  ਅਪੁਨੇ  ਕਉ  ਇਹੈ  ਮਨੋਰਥੁ  ਸੁਆਉ


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## Harry Haller (May 27, 2013)

Brother Onam said:


> The guru himself called himself a worm; I wonder how he might fare in this forum.
> 
> ਦਇਆ ਕਰਹੁ ਕਿਰਮ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਉ ਇਹੈ ਮਨੋਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਉ


 
Brother Omanji

Could you supply the whole shabad, and your interpretation of it so that we may all understand the point you are making


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## Brother Onam (May 27, 2013)

Harry ji,

I believe this is Asa, 5th mehl.

ਦਇਆ ਕਰਹੁ ਕਿਰਮ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਉ ਇਹੈ ਮਨੋਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥੨॥
Dhaeiaa Karahu Kiram Apunae Ko Eihai Manorathh Suaao ||2||


Please, be kind to me - I am just a worm. This is my object and purpose. ||2||
 18632 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬  ਪੰ. ੧ 
  Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev 

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#



ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਮਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Than Dhhan Thaeraa Thoon Prabh Maeraa Hamarai Vas Kishh Naahi ||


My body and wealth are Yours; You are my God - nothing is in my power.
 18633 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬  ਪੰ. ੧ 
  Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev 

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632# 


ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਰਹਣਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
Jio Jio Raakhehi Thio Thio Rehanaa Thaeraa Dheeaa Khaahi ||3||


As You keep me, so do I live; I eat what You give me. ||3||
 18634 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬  ਪੰ. ੨ 
  Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev 

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632# 


ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਾਟੈ ਮਜਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਧੂਰਿ ॥
Janam Janam Kae Kilavikh Kaattai Majan Har Jan Dhhoor ||


The sins of countless incarnations are washed away, by bathing in the dust of the Lord's humble servants.
 18635 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬  ਪੰ. ੨ 
  Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev 

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632# 


ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਰਮ ਭਉ ਨਾਸੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩੯॥
Bhaae Bhagath Bharam Bho Naasai Har Naanak Sadhaa Hajoor ||4||4||139||


By loving devotional worship, doubt and fear depart; O Nanak, the Lord is Ever-present. ||4||4||139||
 18636 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬  ਪੰ. ੩ 
  Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev 



I had spoken of myself as a homeless dog (which is unfortunately true), who had been kicked out of heavenly realms, and my comment was deleted. I was simply inquiring if 'insults' to _oneself_ were also considered inappropriate.


Maybe we are being too delicate here. Much respect to SPNadmin still, O  
http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#


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## Harry Haller (May 27, 2013)

Brother Onam said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> I believe this is Asa, 5th mehl.
> 
> ...


 
Brother Omanji

I read the above as leaning towards humility, I am not sure what it has to do with the subject, I guess you are referring to the deleted post, I cannot help you with that unfortunately, but I guess somewhere it breached TOS. 

I guess insults are insults whether they are directed towards the self or not, being described as a worm as above I do not think is an insult, more a gesture of humility, I am sorry to hear you are homeless, is there anything that can be done about this? I do not know how the system works in US, but have you taken any advice? is there not a Gurdwara local to you that can put you up? Can we do anything to help?


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## Brother Onam (May 27, 2013)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

Thank you for your response. I've been homeless, but this is remedied and I have a roof over my head, because of compassionate friend. Rather I was saying at this time that in the sight of the Most High I am still a outcaste. My question to the administration was simply if it is considered insulting to draw attention to my own worthlessness, as this comment was deleted as, I think, 'name-calling'. I was speaking only of myself. This is all, I wanted to clarify; no need to get into much discussion based on this, in this venerable forum. 
Peace and Love of Guru unto all.


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## Harry Haller (May 27, 2013)

Brother Onamji

there is a difference between humility which is a wonderful facet to have, and self abuse or lack of personal respect, I know this, as I have made the same mistake in the past, one can be humble, but still have respect for oneself, I have to confess to only just realising this myself, but insulting yourself is still insulting Gods creation, we are not of the Abrahamic view that self flagellation is a good thing

please take care of yourself, in the words of Loreal, its because your worth it


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## spnadmin (May 27, 2013)

Only after reading this back-and-forth are things now becoming clear. Everything might have turned out differently if it had been obvious that the negative words were aimed at oneself. Then again, maybe not.

Once upon a time a member referred to herself as a moorat and then another member posting in the same thread took offense. No one else posting could convince  him that the comment was not directed at him. He just hung onto his emotions like a dog to his bone. 

As for Guru Nanak calling himself a worm. After a lot of thought I concluded - YES - I would have deleted that comment, unless "worm" was clearly part of a poetic verse, for a couple of reasons. How would anyone know what the poster (Guru Nanak) was up to? Who was he referring to, himself or someone else?  Was he joking? Being sarcastic? Trying to start a fight? Added is the problem that we are on the Internet. Why should anyone believe it was Guru Nanak just because that is the account ID? 

So the post stays deleted. Undeleting it doesn't really make things better. I really do think we have clarified the issue. If you are referring to yourself be clear somehow.


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