# Hypocrisy In Choosing Partners?



## namritanevaeh (Jan 27, 2016)

sat Sri akal 

I was a bit unsure as to which forum this was best in.

Here's a question. I hear often of how shallow Sikh girls are becoming that they don't want to marry a man who has a beard and turban but rather would try and choose a shaven man with short hair.

It has come up a lot.

Question though, would you consider the opposite hypocritical?

Ok I wouldn't say I "wouldn't consider a man who shaves and cuts his hair". Far from it; I base myself on people's actions far more than their looks. But the fact of the matter is, I'm attracted to guys with a full beard and turban. And i'd probably rather one than any other type of guy right now. It's been an interesting evolution because when I joined SPN in 2012 I would have never said that. Never. At that time. But here I am almost 4 years later. My current man friend does wear a turban and has a lovely beard. I wouldn't want him any other way. I'd be shocked and probably dismayed if he told me one day he no longer identified with sikhi and wanted to cut it off. I doubt he would.  haha. But I continue to shave my legs and under arms and trim my hair (really, my last trims to take off split ends were less than 1 cm of length at the end, but I know a trim is a trim). It's really because basically while I respect the religion and the religious beliefs, and 110% respect that he won't do that and would NEVER push him to do so, I also don't view it the same way for myself. I feel each and every person out there should be allowed to do what is right for their body at any given time in their life, and that if I am to respect his choices to keep long hair (which are based on religion, but could well be just because he feels like it) I deserve the same respect.

I feel that if there is an omnipotent all loving all knowing god out there, SURELY they couldn't get simultaneously upset about something as "shallow" in my opinion as wanting to cut your hair, and then NOT REACT given there are people dying in wars world wide because of religion. I also wonder if maybe contrary to Sikh belief, if there's a God out there, their intention was more to provide us with a blank canvas to do what we want to with our bodies (whether that's piercing, tattoos, dying or styling our hair). That being said I don't use makeup mostly wear my hair in a plain braid and only use nail polish on my toes not fingers. But I do own a tattoo that nobody who isn't on intimate terms with me sees ;-) and 3 modest (for this day and age ;-)) piercings.

So am I hypocritical? Somewhere out there I'm sure there will be someone who says yes. I guess if I am, in this case, it's probably not my worst sin but given I try not to be judgemental of other people, I don't murder or rape or steal, and I don't consider "lust" aka what I would call *desire* a sin at all, then maybe it is. Heh. ;-)

Or maybe my worst sin is not being terribly good at my bank books and finding myself short on money every month with 3 kids to feed. :-/ who knows.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 27, 2016)

I don't think 'god' gets upset, I think its all the same to 'god', I think if anything 'god' enjoys watching his creation learn, grow and get educated, and to that means making mistakes, learning, unlearning and learning again (© Tejwantji). 

Maybe the 5 K's are not even for 'god', maybe they are there for us.


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## guru Daas (Jan 27, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> sat Sri akal
> 
> I was a bit unsure as to which forum this was best in.
> 
> ...


namritanevaeh ji,
Guru ji tells us about the importance of keeping a long hair for a Sikh in SGGS ji...

ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.
ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
Millions of people worship His Feet.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||(SGGS P98)

In this Shabad, God is referred to as having _"long hair":_

ਤੇਰੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.
ਸੋਹਣੇ ਨਕ ਜਿਨ ਲੰਮੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ||
Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.
ਕੰਚਨ ਕਾਇਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕੀ ਢਾਲਾ ॥
Your body is so precious, cast in gold.
ਸੋਵੰਨ ਢਾਲਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਪਹੁ ਤੁਸੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥
His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.
ਜਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਹੁ ਖੜੀਆ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥
You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.
ਹੰਸ ਹੰਸਾ ਬਗ ਬਗਾ ਲਹੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਜਾਲਾ ॥
From a crane, you shall be transformed into a swan, and the filth of your mind shall be removed.
ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ॥੭||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful. ||7||(SGGS p567)

The entity and the identity of a Sikh are interdependent. Though there is no doubt that merely by sporting unshorn hair a person will not become a Sikh, but it is also true that without Kes a person cannot be a Sikh. It is thus construed that every person keeping unshorn hair does not become a Sikh, but every Sikh is and ought to be _Kesdhari_ (one who maintains unshorn hair).

‘Sikh’ literally means a follower. The one who does not follow the tenets cannot lay claim to be called a follower or a Sikh. Says Guru Amar Das jee,

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
Sorat'h, Third Mehl:

ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਖਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will.
ਆਪਣੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਵੈ ॥
One who walks according to his own will, O Siblings of Destiny, suffers separation from the Lord, and shall be punished.
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਭਾਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
Without the True Guru, peace is never obtained, O Siblings of Destiny; again and again, he regrets and repents. ||1||

The life of a follower has to flow in a system. This system is known as rahit maryada. Maryada is a word derived from Sanskrit root word marya, which means the two banks of a river. If the water flows within the embankments then it is river and serves humankind. However, if it spills over or breaches its embankments, then it is floods and causes havoc. Similarly, the life of a Sikh has to flow and operate within the parameters of Maryada and the Maryada has to be the Sikh Rahit Maryada. Says Guru Nanak Dev, the founder of the Sikh faith that,

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪਹਰੇ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Pehray, First House:

ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥
In the first watch of the night, O my merchant friend, you were cast into the womb, by the Lord's Command.
ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
Upside-down, within the womb, you performed penance, O my merchant friend, and you prayed to your Lord and Master.
ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਉਰਧ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
You uttered prayers to your Lord and Master, while upside-down, and you meditated on Him with deep love and affection.
ਨਾ ਮਰਜਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ਕਲਿ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਾਸੀ ਨਾਗਾ ॥
You came into this Dark Age of Kali Yuga naked, and you shall depart again naked if you fail to lead your life in maryada. .
ਜੈਸੀ ਕਲਮ ਵੁੜੀ ਹੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਤੈਸੀ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
As God's Pen has written on your forehead, so it shall be with your soul.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥੧॥
Says Nanak, in the first watch of the night, by the Hukam of the Lord's Command, you enter into the womb. ||1||

Personally  i respect everybody & the way the want to live their life. Its your life your choice but from the Sikhi point of view i firmly believe in the Rehat Maryada set up by our gurus without a single doubt in my mind. Forgive me for my ignorance.

Guru Kirpa


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## Harry Haller (Jan 27, 2016)

Guru Daasji

If I may comment

ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.
ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
Millions of people worship His Feet.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||(SGGS P98)

In this Shabad, God is referred to as having _"long hair":_

ਤੇਰੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.
ਸੋਹਣੇ ਨਕ ਜਿਨ ਲੰਮੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ||
Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.
ਕੰਚਨ ਕਾਇਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕੀ ਢਾਲਾ ॥
Your body is so precious, cast in gold.
ਸੋਵੰਨ ਢਾਲਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਪਹੁ ਤੁਸੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥
His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.
ਜਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਹੁ ਖੜੀਆ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥
You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.
ਹੰਸ ਹੰਸਾ ਬਗ ਬਗਾ ਲਹੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਜਾਲਾ ॥
From a crane, you shall be transformed into a swan, and the filth of your mind shall be removed.
ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ॥੭||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful. ||7||(SGGS p567)

I do not think this shabad is about having long hair, although hair is mentioned, I would hazard a guess the essence of what is trying to be explained is not about having long hair. It is talking about women, all of whom had long hair back then. 

If you firmly believe in the rehat, then surely you must realise that the rehat sets out quite clearly what is a Sikh, which is at odds with your explanation.


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## guru Daas (Jan 27, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Guru Daasji
> 
> If I may comment
> 
> ...


harry haller ji,
I agree with you brother but there are many other shabads too addressing the importance of hair.The foundation stone for keeping unshorn hair was laid by the first Guru ji itself. Guru Nanak Dev ji categorically stated that it is essential for a person to keep unshorn hair as this is a blessing from God and doing away with it is a breach of trust and misappropriation. In fact, a Sikh by doing away with his kes breaks his relationship with the Divine. The following are quotes from Makke di Gosht -Guru Nanak Sahib’s conversation with Muslim sages, which were held during his sojourn to Mecca,

ਜਵਾਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਸੂਰਾ:
ਸਚੀ ਸੁਨਿਤ ਰਬ ਦੀ ਮੋਇਆ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਨਾਲ[
ਜੋ ਰਖੇ ਮੋਇ ਅਮਾਨਤੀ ਖਾਸਾ ਬੰਦਾ ਭਾਲਿ[
ਅਵਲ ਸੁੰਨਤ ਮੋਇ ਹੈ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਰਖੇ ਕੋਇ[
ਪਾਵੇ ਮਰਾਤਬਾ ਸਯਦੀ ਬਡਾ ਰਿਖੀਸਰ ਹੋਇ[
(ਮੱਕੇ ਮਦੀਨੇ ਦੀ ਗੋਸ਼ਟਿ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੪੪. ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨਿਵਰਸਿਟੀ)
Courageous Lord Nanak replied:
The true divine sunnat (injunction) is the hair brought by birth.
Blessed is the one who keeps the hair as a trust of God.
The primary sunnat is hair and the one who adorns it on his head acquires the status of a rishi (sage) or a sayyid (Muslim holy man)
(Conversation of Mecca-Madina, page 144, Punjabi University)

ਮੋਇ ਸਿਰਪਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇਦਾ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬੰਦਾ ਨਾਲ[
ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖੇ ਪੀਰ ਜੀ  ਫਿਰ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ਨਾਲ[
ਫਿਰ ਗਇਆ ਦਰਗਹ ਵਿਚਿ ਅਕੇ ਰਖਿ ਨੀਸਾਨ[
ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਰਬ ਦੀ ਭੰਨਨ ਬੇਈਮਾਨ[
(ਮੱਕੇ ਮਦੀਨੇ ਦੀ ਗੋਸ਼ਟਿ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੪੪. ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨਿਵਰਸਿਟੀ)
Says Nanak, the hair is the blessing of the Lord to man which ought to be presented back. The man has to present himself in the court of Lord with this trust. The one who could not keep the hair intact has is in fact committed breach of trust and is to be regarded as faithless.
(Conversation of Mecca-Madina, page 144, Punjabi University)

ਆਖੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਬਹਾਵਦੀ ਪੀਰ[
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਦੁਇ ਸਿਰ ਗੁੰਮ ਥੀਏ ਜਹੀਰਿ[
(ਮੱਕੇ ਮਦੀਨੇ ਦੀ ਗੋਸ਼ਟਿ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੩੮. ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨਿਵਰਸਿਟੀ)
Says Nanak to Pir Bahavdeen, both Hindus and Muslims by losing the hair in fact have lost head and have become sirgum.
(Conversation of Mecca-Madina, page 138, Punjabi University)

The references are not only restricted to hair on the head – Guru Amar Das ji, the third Guru, even speaks of the unshorn beard. Then there is the order of Guru Gobind Singh ji,

ਸੋਹਣੇ ਨਕ ਜਿਨ ਲੰਮੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ॥
Beautiful is Your nose and long hair॥(SGGS Ang 567)

Meaning, those who have beautiful nose and beautiful Kesh, they too are your nose and Kesh. Thus, a Sikh should keep full appearance (i.e. maintain unshorn hair and not pierce the nose), crowned with a turban on the head.
Salokh of Bhagat Kabeer Ji,
ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੰਡਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੇਸ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਕਾਂਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥੧੦੧॥
O Kabeer! You have not shaved your mind, so why do you shave your head? Whatever is done, is done by the mind; it is useless to shave your head. ||101||(SGGS Ang 1369)

As well as having biological functions and benefits, the hair is sacred due to the fact that spiritual energy abides within each and every pore of hair on the body. The hairs are like electrical wires, which preserve, carry and vibrate energy. When one chants & meditates the Divine- Name (Naam), each hair vibrates. Sikhs do not forcibly or intentionally remove any hair from the body but maintain clean hair with proper washing; tying and keeping them covered are requirements for a Sikh.

Gurbaani (the Divine Word) says:

ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਮਹਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥
On each and every hair, the Lord abides॥(SGGS Ang 344)

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
The Gurmukh meditates on the Lord with every hair of his body॥(SGGSAng 941)

Some other Rehatnamas,

ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ, ਭੰਨੇ ਬੇਈਮਾਨ । ਦਰਗਹਿ ਢੋਈ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੇ, ਕਾਫ਼ਰ, ਕੁੱਤਾ, ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ।
“God has made the human perfect, but the dishonourable destroy it.
They will find no place in the Court of God, like the unbeliever, dog and Satanist.”
(Guru Nanak Janam Sakhi)

ਨਾਈ ਦਾ ਹਥ ਸੀਸ ਚਿਹਰੇ ਨ ਲਗਣਾ ਪਾਵੈ । ਕੇਸਾਧਾਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਪੰਥ ਕਹਾਵੈ ।
“The head (of a Sikh) should never have to pass through the hands of a barber. The Guru’s Panth (community) calls itself Keshdhari (those with unshorn hair).”
(Bansaavaleenama, Bhai Kesar Singh Chhibar)

ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਯਾ ਸੁਨੋ ਲੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ ।
ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ, ਕੇਸੰ ਦਿਵੋ ਨ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ ।
“Listen O beloved ones: It (the Kesh) is my stamp. Without (wearing) a weapon and keeping Kesh, I will not give my audience.”
(Gurbilaas Paatshaahee 10 – Bhai Sukha Singh)

Forgive me if i have said something disrespectful or offensive.
Guru Kirpa


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## namritanevaeh (Jan 27, 2016)

guru Daas said:


> harry haller ji,
> I agree with you brother but there are many other shabads too addressing the importance of hair.The foundation stone for keeping unshorn hair was laid by the first Guru ji itself. Guru Nanak Dev ji categorically stated that it is essential for a person to keep unshorn hair as this is a blessing from God and doing away with it is a breach of trust and misappropriation. In fact, a Sikh by doing away with his kes breaks his relationship with the Divine. The following are quotes from Makke di Gosht -Guru Nanak Sahib’s conversation with Muslim sages, which were held during his sojourn to Mecca,
> 
> ਜਵਾਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਸੂਰਾ:
> ...


Honestly, I'm not arguing the merits of long hair (though it is something I feel is important to respect personal preference such as for example I wouldn't force my kids to have long hair if they don't want to), and I'm not arguing that Sikhs should or shouldn't keep it. Again, respect those who decide it's not for them and don't insult them. But really almost none of this had to do with my original question/commentaries.

It also says in the bible not to cut your hair did you know that? And I'm not Christian either (many people assume wrongly that I am, being gori...). Again I doubt if god, if he or she exists, REALLY gives a hoot one way or another.


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## guru Daas (Jan 27, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> Honestly, I'm not arguing the merits of long hair (though it is something I feel is important to respect personal preference such as for example I wouldn't force my kids to have long hair if they don't want to), and I'm not arguing that Sikhs should or shouldn't keep it. Again, respect those who decide it's not for them and don't insult them.


namritanevaeh ji,
I totally agree with that that you should keep your hair only if the feeling really is from inside otherwise there is no point in forcing yourself into something that you don't feel happy about. Everybody should have the freedom to make their own choices.


namritanevaeh said:


> It also says in the bible not to cut your hair did you know that?


Its not just the bible,there are quite a few mentions about the significance of keeping one's hair intact in the Hindu Puranas & Islam too.


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## namritanevaeh (Jan 28, 2016)

guru Daas said:


> namritanevaeh ji,
> I totally agree with that that you should keep your hair only if the feeling really is from inside otherwise there is no point in forcing yourself into something that you don't feel happy about. Everybody should have the freedom to make their own choices.
> 
> Its not just the bible,there are quite a few mentions about the significance of keeping one's hair intact in the Hindu Puranas & Islam too.


I just found it ironic to read of girls who don't want a man who keeps his beard long and here I am thinking "but that sounds better to me!"


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## namritanevaeh (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm coming back to this having re-read it and thinking it pertains to a friend I have currently. He's single and looking.

He thought the other day he wasn't picky. And then listed that he wanted someone who's vegetarian, doesn't cut her hair and doesn't have kids. And he's 40-ish.

And I'm eventually going to go back and chat again on this subject but I felt that is actually pretty picky.

I TOTALLY understand him wanting her vegetarian. In a religious sense. But he said it would gross him out to see her eating meat. And I'm like...my ex grossed me out by eating Parmesan cheese (nasty stuff!). But that's not why I divorced him.  feeling something is nasty is fine, but it's also possible to do something like eat meat only when he's not there. Just as an example. I GET that he wouldn't want that, so I'm not really debating it. I've never eaten meat in front of my man friend, and he knows I eat meat but I do it when he's not there, out of respect.

But the hair thing I dunno I can't get it! Like, if you want "me" (meaning whatever people there are on this earth) to respect that "you" don't want to cut your hair, for religious reasons, that's great, and I personally do and I love my man friend in all his hairy glory. But I want the same respect that I don't need to follow that even if I will defend "your" right to wear a turban and keep your hair long, and defend it FIERCELY. I kinda go "are we all one people or are we not?". If we separate people out into "has long hair" and "doesn't" to my mind it comes down to a caste thing. If you can accept that your coworker and maybe even your best friend isn't a fully practicing Sikh and maybe isn't Sikh at all, why can't you accept that your wife isn't? AS LONG AS SHE RESPECTS YOUR PERSONAL NEED TO BE SIKH? Like it just smacks of "holier than thou-ness" to me somehow. :-/ and I go "obviously I'm more accepting of him than he is of me" in the end. 

As to the kids...I gotta say I always find it so shallow too to hear men of that age say no kids (but I want kids), in that most women unless you're going for one who is CONSIDERABLY younger (which is possible...) by 40+ have had a kid or more and the term "cutting off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind. You can glance over and away from a WONDERFUL woman because you aren't willing to consider a woman who has kids?

I read the classifieds regularly in the newspaper because they're the one thing I have the patience to read through an entire ad (that or headlines or horoscopes)...this in Punjabi. And I just find it sooooooo shallow the number of people who are posting asking for a "sohni sukhi" (beautiful) wife for an Amritdhari Sikh.

Beauty fades. Fast sometimes.

If I were Amritdhari guy posting  I would be asking for a wife who respects MY beliefs and honours them. Has a good heart. Isn't overly argumentative. Will treat my parents well. Is well educated with a good sense of humour. Things like that. I wouldn't care about her looks AND THAT INCLUDES whether she cuts her hair or not, or has a double chin or a giant mole in the middle of her left cheek.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 28, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> I'm coming back to this having re-read it and thinking it pertains to a friend I have currently. He's single and looking.
> 
> He thought the other day he wasn't picky. And then listed that he wanted someone who's vegetarian, doesn't cut her hair and doesn't have kids. And he's 40-ish.
> 
> ...



In fact as a gori, I looked for an Amritdhari Singh because I was aiming towards Amrit myself. I married a very handsome (hey he's mine so I am allowed to be biased LOL) turbaned bearded Singh and I also tie a turban. He also highly respects that I do.

Plenty of Singhnis go for turban and beard. Why not go for a Singhni who also ties a dastar and is Amritdhari as ALL of them will definitely want a Singh who follows Rehet Maryada. Problem is many Singhs won't go for turban wearing Singhnis! Even some Amritdhari Singhs as they think women weren't meant to tie one and are not 'feminine' enough. Bah... Turban was for everyone as it is the main article which makes a Sikh stand out. Turban wearing Singhnis LOOK like Singhnis instead of being mistaken for Hindu women etc. Which can easily happen. Note I support whatever choice someone makes and realize many women feel pressure to look certain way etc too and could never tie a turban full time. It was difficult for me at first but I now love who I am more than who I was. 

Do not be disheartened. If you want a Woman who will accept you for your Rehet then find a Singhni who also follows it and pls give turban wearing Singhnis a chance!


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## namritanevaeh (Apr 29, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> In fact as a gori, I looked for an Amritdhari Singh because I was aiming towards Amrit myself. I married a very handsome (hey he's mine so I am allowed to be biased LOL) turbaned bearded Singh and I also tie a turban. He also highly respects that I do.
> 
> Plenty of Singhnis go for turban and beard. Why not go for a Singhni who also ties a dastar and is Amritdhari as ALL of them will definitely want a Singh who follows Rehet Maryada. Problem is many Singhs won't go for turban wearing Singhnis! Even some Amritdhari Singhs as they think women weren't meant to tie one and are not 'feminine' enough. Bah... Turban was for everyone as it is the main article which makes a Sikh stand out. Turban wearing Singhnis LOOK like Singhnis instead of being mistaken for Hindu women etc. Which can easily happen. Note I support whatever choice someone makes and realize many women feel pressure to look certain way etc too and could never tie a turban full time. It was difficult for me at first but I now love who I am more than who I was.
> 
> Do not be disheartened. If you want a Woman who will accept you for your Rehet then find a Singhni who also follows it and pls give turban wearing Singhnis a chance!



Harkiran ji,

Are you commenting about the man I was talking about? Or talking to me as if I'm a guy? (I'm not)

Pretty much nothing in this pertains to what I said which is partly why I wondered. I respect the turban lots. I probably wouldn't ever wear one, for many reasons. And ONE of those reasons is how much I respect it.

But as I asked...are we one humanity? Or are we not, and we have castes of "long haired turban wearers" and "short haired non turban wearers"??


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 29, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> Harkiran ji,
> 
> Are you commenting about the man I was talking about? Or talking to me as if I'm a guy? (I'm not)
> 
> ...



No the idea that Amritdhari are a caste is wrong. The whole idea of creating the Khalsa was a brotherhood.  Once you take amrit, everyone no matter what their background, drink amrit from the same bata. They share on equal level. Considering Amritdhari as a caste or some sort of elite etc is wrong thinking that goes against one of the main reasons for creating it in the first place! 

Here is how I look at it. We are all Sikhs, and in Sikhi there is a path we are supposed to aim for. If someone is not at least AIMING to follow that path then they are on a different path than I am and that would not be conducive to having a family. (different values etc). But I would never consider them lesser as the same divine light is in all of us. When it comes to marriage, as Amritdhari you make certain commitments to uphold code of conduct and one of that is to marry only an Amritdhari. Reason is, it would be very difficult to keep up your rehet while being married to someone who doesn't do their nitnem, etc. and very likely the non-Amritdhari will influence the Amritdhari to the point where they will go backwards on their path, and end up living as non-Amritdhari again.  So for me, I knew before I was married even though I was not yet Amrtidhari myself, I wanted to marry an Amritdhari Singh. Because I knew that I wanted to take Amrit, and also have someone to support me in keeping those commitments as we worked for it together.  It has nothing to do with seeing non-Amritdhari as lesser. 

Like someone might love a certain music or certain hobbies. I might not be drawn to those things. So why would I want to marry them? Doesn't mean I think any less of them. Just that I want to make sure marriage remains the lifetime commitment I vowed. And best way is to marry someone who is on the same path and has similar outlook on spirituality etc.


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## kds1980 (Apr 29, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> Harkiran ji,
> 
> Are you commenting about the man I was talking about? Or talking to me as if I'm a guy? (I'm not)
> 
> ...


Actually sikh society is divided on this issue from past 150 years , millions of sikhs left sikhism and now call themselves hindu's because at some point they abandoned hair  and they knew that sikhs with hair will not accept them.

On your second point of accepting with kids , again I am sorry to say Indians are quite conservative when it comes to raising kids of others, they actually want their own and if they don't have one then they will ask their relatives to give them one , but for many raising other's child is no no


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## Seeker2013 (May 1, 2016)

I agree with the preference of males who're either clean-shaven or with a little stubble and a stylish hair-do , among punjabi sikhi women for the most part.
I think a part of it has to do with the fact that the world defined glamorous look among men as someone who's not too hairy . And the way we're bombarded with glam-sham everyday in newspapers, media, internet, wherever you look , you can't escape this maya ! 
She's everywhere luring us . 

And part of it also has to do with the fact that sikh men have been repeatedly shown as humorous characters in indian cinema . and thats a major turn-off for many people. 
although its also seen a positive trait by some women.
How many movies do we have in which a sikh man saves the day . Very little . Even in movies which superficially seem to be pro-sikh like 'singh is king' , the lead actor always shows a fukra-type rogue punjabi . It doesn't help. Its sugar-coated poison.

And being a gay guy myself , I cant help but say that yes for the most part , guys who're clean-shaven or with a little stubble and a stylish hair-do do look much cuter and I find myself attracted to them than with someone in a turban. Its all about environment we raised in


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 1, 2016)

Seeker2013 said:


> I agree with the preference of males who're either clean-shaven or with a little stubble and a stylish hair-do , among punjabi sikhi women for the most part.
> I think a part of it has to do with the fact that the world defined glamorous look among men as someone who's not too hairy . And the way we're bombarded with glam-sham everyday in newspapers, media, internet, wherever you look , you can't escape this maya !
> She's everywhere luring us .
> 
> ...



Okay but... I was raised in Caucasian western family. And I find turbaned bearded Singhs more handsome... I fact I think clean shaven is too feminine on a guy.


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## Seeker2013 (May 1, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Okay but... I was raised in Caucasian western family. And I find turbaned bearded Singhs more handsome... I fact I think clean shaven is too feminine on a guy.


also let us not forget that trends for men keep changing but what Guru Gobind Singh ji did in 1699, he made an impression on humanity and defined a complete man.
Now beards are back into fashion. When I was growing in 90s, clean shaven was heavy trend among men, now we're back to full beards although not as much


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 1, 2016)

Seeker2013 said:


> also let us not forget that trends for men keep changing but what Guru Gobind Singh ji did in 1699, he made an impression on humanity and defined a complete man.
> Now beards are back into fashion. When I was growing in 90s, clean shaven was heavy trend among men, now we're back to full beards although not as much



But for me it's not a fashion thing. But rather this is the male form as God intended.


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## Seeker2013 (May 1, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> But for me it's not a fashion thing. But rather this is the male form as God intended.


For me, I have felt Guru sahib's grace in my life and I am not a proper saroopi sikh.
I trim my beard too and might even cut my hair , atleast for certain period of my life.

But if superficially like this , by disowning the saroop, we forget the guru , or atleast thats what we're made to believe by the panthic organizations, *does the guru ever  forget us ?? *

*Reminds me of that be-dawaa (notice of disowning) of sikhs and guru gobind singh ji.
But in the end as the singh breathes his last in guru's lap, the singh utters "Guru ji bedaawa faad dawo" (Guru ji, please tear that letter in which I said I disown you as my guru) and guru ji does.

we forget the guru at times, but does guru ? makes me wonder . what do u think ?*


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 1, 2016)

Seeker2013 said:


> For me, I have felt Guru sahib's grace in my life and I am not a proper saroopi sikh.
> I trim my beard too and might even cut my hair , atleast for certain period of my life.
> 
> But if superficially like this , by disowning the saroop, we forget the guru , or atleast thats what we're made to believe by the panthic organizations, *does the guru ever  forget us ?? *
> ...



Since I believe this journey is for a reason and we go through births and deaths in order to progress spiritually, I don't think it's a case of one chance or hell or eternity like Christianity etc. I believe we take birth according to our past actions but I think it's more self guided and not punishment. Meaning once you get on the other side and see hey I messed this up and I need more experience with such and such as a soul so I will go next time in this birth... 

Obviously Sikhi saroop is uncut kesh. You think it's easy? It's never easy. But ultimately whether this life or a future one you will decide it's worth it so you can progress. Whatever you do on the way is your own choice. Remember all is ONE ultimately. 

As a female keeping kesh can be waaaaaay more difficult than a man especially with stray hairs growing on my chin. No I don't have a beard but I do have some hairs on my chin and upper lip that if close enough to me you can see. As a female keeping these is way more difficult than a male keeping a beard trust me! And there are some girls with full on beards! Imagine how they feel!!! But they are still keeping their kesh!!!! If They can can keep their kesh you can grow your beard. So it's only your wish for superficial things like fashion and fads and to fit in that makes you want to cut your beard and hairs. Ask yourself are these things more important to you than spiritual progression? Maybe at this point they are. and it's your choice.


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## swarn bains (May 2, 2016)

kesav means God. it mentions Krishan as kesav not the hair. can someone guide me to write unicode punjabi on windows ten. i lost it and having hard time to write anything punjabi on this site. earlier windows had language as icon but this does not have it. please help


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## chazSingh (May 3, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> sat Sri akal
> 
> I was a bit unsure as to which forum this was best in.
> 
> ...



if you find the beard and turban attractive, go for it...
seriously, everyone of is to some extent pick and chose...slim or fat, light skinned or dark skinned, hair colour etc etc

if you love sikhi...want to unravel the jewels within...also keep that in mind, as some adopt the looks but that's it...it does help from a sikh point of view that there is some mutual love for progress in sikhi...turban or no turban

God bless


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## namritanevaeh (May 7, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> No the idea that Amritdhari are a caste is wrong. The whole idea of creating the Khalsa was a brotherhood.  Once you take amrit, everyone no matter what their background, drink amrit from the same bata. They share on equal level. Considering Amritdhari as a caste or some sort of elite etc is wrong thinking that goes against one of the main reasons for creating it in the first place!
> 
> Here is how I look at it. We are all Sikhs, and in Sikhi there is a path we are supposed to aim for. If someone is not at least AIMING to follow that path then they are on a different path than I am and that would not be conducive to having a family.



Basically I think that if you find someone who respects your beliefs and supports them fully even if they don't have the same ones, and you get along well on other points, that can be just as important.

If I didn't do nitnem with my spouse if he was Amritdhari, I would never stop him from doing it.

There are so many things you can argue on in a relationship. You could "not follow the same religious beliefs and yet respect each other's beliefs fully", and get along perfectly in many other situations. Or you could be of the same religious background and butt heads constantly on whether to have kids, how many kids to have, how to raise kids (not talking religion, more other parenting things...such as how to deal with whether your kid has straight A's or not...), family finances, which car to buy, whether a big house and a beater car is better than a bunch of fancy gadgets and a couple nice cars but living in a small appartment, where to live...etc.

There's so much to argue about.

I know an Amritdhari Sikh lady whose husband doesn't like her volunteering (sounds kinda ridiculously anti-Sikh to me!). But she goes "but at least we have the same faith" and I'm like...if it's constantly causing arguments how is that good?

A friend of mine here (who teaches gurmat studies at Khalsa school) was arguing yesterday with people at the school saying you don't have to be Sikh to marry Sikh. Lol. I was pretty glad myself to hear her say that. Personally...


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## namritanevaeh (May 7, 2016)

kds1980 said:


> Actually sikh society is divided on this issue from past 150 years , millions of sikhs left sikhism and now call themselves hindu's because at some point they abandoned hair  and they knew that sikhs with hair will not accept them.
> 
> On your second point of accepting with kids , again I am sorry to say Indians are quite conservative when it comes to raising kids of others, they actually want their own and if they don't have one then they will ask their relatives to give them one , but for many raising other's child is no no


That sucks that mentality.

Totally not how I was raised.

I do have a blood sibling but I also have an adopted sibling and a foster sibling. The foster sibling was raised in India. My parents paid for his education from around when he was 3-18 years. I only met him when he was 30 but I had awesome parents.


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## namritanevaeh (May 7, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> As a female keeping kesh can be waaaaaay more difficult than a man especially with stray hairs growing on my chin. No I don't have a beard but I do have some hairs on my chin and upper lip that if close enough to me you can see. As a female keeping these is way more difficult than a male keeping a beard trust me! And there are some girls with full on beards! Imagine how they feel!!! But they are still keeping their kesh!!!! If They can can keep their kesh you can grow your beard. So it's only your wish for superficial things like fashion and fads and to fit in that makes you want to cut your beard and hairs. Ask yourself are these things more important to you than spiritual progression? Maybe at this point they are. and it's your choice.



Ironically while I shave my chin hair and will fully admit I do it because I don't like the look (superficial), I do NOT consider cutting my hair when my 3 kids were born to be a superficial choice at ALL.

My ex was not helpful in baby care at all. Even a helpful man however might not be able to always keep a newborn calm and happy for a 20 minute shower. The fact is that my hair took way more time to take care of than I wanted to leave my baby crying (and even if my ex was around and able to help sometimes, I was alone a LOT of the time with one or two kids early days, to do my own self care and theirs). I felt it was disrespectful of them and their needs to be spending so much time on grooming (washing hair then drying it and braiding it up...and I hate having babies' fists clutching my loose hair and never wear it down)...for superficial beauty (because I like the look of my hair and the compliments I get for it...). So I cut it all short. Every time I had a kid. To take care of them properly.

Now I keep it long. I trim split ends. When I say trim I mean like 1/8 inch off at most. I don't do that for beauty. Nobody even can tell. I do it because it's easier and faster to brush and braid up...doesn't tangle as much.

I also shave my legs. Even in winter. I don't do that for beauty, because almost nobody sees my legs shaved. I almost never wear shorts, not even in summer. I do it because I happen to ENJOY the feel of silky soft legs. I do it for me, not so for society.


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 8, 2016)

What can I say? Either you follow rehet or you do not. It's your choice. Not everyone can or wants to be Amritdhari, but if you are, then you are bound by the rehet maryada you made a commitment to follow. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. It's all choice...


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## Harry Haller (May 9, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> What can I say? Either you follow rehet or you do not. It's your choice. Not everyone can or wants to be Amritdhari, but if you are, then you are bound by the rehet maryada you made a commitment to follow. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. It's all choice...



There is more to rehat than physical appearance, just because one excels at physical appearance, does not  automatically mean one follows rehat.


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 9, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> There is more to rehat than physical appearance, just because one excels at physical appearance, does not  automatically mean one follows rehat.



I didn't say that it did. What I said was that when you take Amrit, you have to abide by the full rehet, which includes the physical.  You can't take Amrit and then say ok well my intentions are good so therefore I should be exempt from keeping kesh. You can't pick and choose which bits to follow. It's all or nothing.

Of course nobody is forcing anyone to take Amrit... but if you do make that personal choice, then you have to abide by all of it including external rehet.


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## Harry Haller (May 9, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> What I said was that when you take Amrit, you have to abide by the full rehet, which includes the physical



sorry can you show where you said this? All I can see is a reply to a woman that has not taken Amrit and is not Amritdhari.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> You can't take Amrit and then say ok well my intentions are good so therefore I should be exempt from keeping kesh. You can't pick and choose which bits to follow. It's all or nothing.



Yes, but the visual ones are always easier, I think keeping kesh is a wonderful idea, not so wonderful if you do not have the inside to match it.


Harkiran Kaur said:


> Of course nobody is forcing anyone to take Amrit... but if you do make that personal choice, then you have to abide by all of it including external rehet.



You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 9, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> sorry can you show where you said this? All I can see is a reply to a woman that has not taken Amrit and is not Amritdhari.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How on earth is making a commitment somehow ritual? Especially when you choose to take Amrit? If you don't want to then you don't have to... Easy! But please don't call following Rehet as a ritual! It's a commitment to our Guru!!! Keeping kesh, all five kakkars was established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself! So please don't belittle it by saying it's only ritual! 

And yes I responded to her... And I know she did not take Amrit. My point being nobody is telling her she has to! It's her choice so if she wants to keep cut / shaved kesh then that's fine! It would be different if she were Amritdhari.


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## Harry Haller (May 10, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> How on earth is making a commitment somehow ritual? Especially when you choose to take Amrit? If you don't want to then you don't have to... Easy! But please don't call following Rehet as a ritual! It's a commitment to our Guru!!! Keeping kesh, all five kakkars was established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself! So please don't belittle it by saying it's only ritual!
> 
> And yes I responded to her... And I know she did not take Amrit. My point being nobody is telling her she has to! It's her choice so if she wants to keep cut / shaved kesh then that's fine! It would be different if she were Amritdhari.



This entire post is moot as my comment was actually

*You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,*

see, I have made it bold, so you can get a good look at it, I would be grateful if you could simply answer the questions I have asked rather than attribute comments to me that were never mine.

I find this sort of mischief making most un Sikh like , and frankly I expect more of those that have made this commitment than this.


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 10, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> This entire post is moot as my comment was actually
> 
> *You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,*
> 
> ...



You are free to believe that if you want... for me it's a commitment to my Guru that I am not at liberty to pick and choose what parts I want to follow. Its all or nothing. If I did not take Amrit, I would not be bound to all of the Rehet Maryada. But, since I have taken Amrit, I am.

Also, you seem to be harping on "ritual" instead of what I am hoping you meant was "empty ritual" we do LOTS every single day which is ritual for us. Ritual means repeated. We wake up, shower, brush our teeth, drive to work, etc. That is all ritual we engage in every single day.  The Gurus were not against "ritual" they were against "empty ritual" which had to meaning or purpose.

For example, let's take idol worship. It's not the repetitive nature of worshipping an idol which is condemned. Rather, a stone idol, made of mineral, part of the overall creation in which EVERYTHING contains the divine light. What purpose would it serve to worship only one part, just a small stone idol? What makes that stone idol more important than a tree, the mountains, animals, humans, stars, planets, galaxies etc? So worshipping a mere stone idol is fruitless, because our Creator is literally everywhere and in everything. Worshipping a stone idol is empty of meaning.

You can not ever apply the same to following the rehet maryada. There is nothing "Empty" in following Rehet.  You are abiding by the commitment you made to your Guru.

But please be more clear on "empty ritual" vs "ritual".  Nitnem can be seen as a ritual we do every day because it is repetitive. But it is definitely not "empty ritual". I think you can get what I meant.


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## Harry Haller (May 10, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> *You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,*



sorry this is my fault, and I am being quite genuine here, my point was not the question of ritual per se, we can save that argument for another day, no, my point was that you made it sound like ritual, ie, my issue is or was, as I think the time has gone to clarify, the way you made it sound. 

Kind regards and best wishes

Harry


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## namritanevaeh (May 13, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> How on earth is making a commitment somehow ritual? Especially when you choose to take Amrit? If you don't want to then you don't have to... Easy! But please don't call following Rehet as a ritual! It's a commitment to our Guru!!! Keeping kesh, all five kakkars was established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself! So please don't belittle it by saying it's only ritual!
> 
> And yes I responded to her... And I know she did not take Amrit. My point being nobody is telling her she has to! It's her choice so if she wants to keep cut / shaved kesh then that's fine! It would be different if she were Amritdhari.


So, question:

Do you follow all of guru Gobind Singh ji's 52 hukkams, including learning about other religions?

Personally I think that is the one that most Sikhs fall behind on. Sure many know basics about Islam and Hinduism (particularly in an attempt to point to why Sikhi isn't the same as either of those), and some Christianity. But there are many many religions out there and some I've mentioned that many Sikhs don't even know of the name let alone ANY of their beliefs and teachings...


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## namritanevaeh (May 13, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Also, you seem to be harping on "ritual" instead of what I am hoping you meant was "empty ritual" we do LOTS every single day which is ritual for us. Ritual means repeated. We wake up, shower, brush our teeth, drive to work, etc. That is all ritual we engage in every single day.  The Gurus were not against "ritual" they were against "empty ritual" which had to meaning or purpose.
> 
> For example, let's take idol worship. It's not the repetitive nature of worshipping an idol which is condemned. Rather, a stone idol, made of mineral, part of the overall creation in which EVERYTHING contains the divine light. What purpose would it serve to worship only one part, just a small stone idol? What makes that stone idol more important than a tree, the mountains, animals, humans, stars, planets, galaxies etc? So worshipping a mere stone idol is fruitless, because our Creator is literally everywhere and in everything. Worshipping a stone idol is empty of meaning.



These are good points but at the same time, what of worshiping a book as if it is a human? I'm not saying NOT to but if the creator is in everything then surely worshiping a stone is just as valid.

What I found interesting in reading some of the guru Nanak stories and him dismissing certain Hindu rituals was that he was seeming to say that what they were doing was absolutely false, and there was no use to it, it is an empty ritual, but that was his definition. If something MEANS something to you it should mean that that is not an empty ritual. Even if it means nothing to the person next door.

I never bowed down before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for a long long time. It meant nothing to me. It would be empty ritual. When I did do it ultimately was when I had been away from a gurdwara for more than a week in summer of 2015 and unable to visit one, and I missed it so badly that I virtually threw myself down on the ground in front of it when I finally got to one. I can't tell you WHY it felt right then but didn't before really (I mean I know it was because I missed it but why?). But I certainly think that for ME, a lot of what people would expect me to do, in terms of bowing down as it goes by or even covering my head when it's not what's in my culture nor is it written in rehat that anyone other than "Sikh women" should cover their head in the presence of SGGSJ, SHOULD be defined as "empty ritual". So I find myself kind of divided. On the one hand I'm participating (a lot) in a community that frowns on empty ritual, and yet would frown at ME for not doing what "they" feel I should do. And on the other hand I probably shouldn't care whether I participate in empty ritual since I don't see why it is actually anything either for or against anything I particularly believe in.

(Sorry, long diatribe maybe, just to say colour me confused ;-))


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## namritanevaeh (May 13, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> sorry can you show where you said this? All I can see is a reply to a woman that has not taken Amrit and is not Amritdhari.
> 
> You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,



What I find ironic is how often I hear people say Sikhi is a way of life not a religion. And then I look at the "rules" one has to follow to be fully Sikh and yeah they look very ritualistic to me for a lot of them. I can follow a lot of the good teachings of Sikhi, I can be the kind of person who would for example defend people and their right to practice their religion, without BEING Amritdhari aka fully Sikh, and given its restrictions I kinda go "why would I choose to limit myself so much?"...because having thought of it I honestly think I can do more FOR Sikhi as well as more for humanity, by NOT taking Amrit and just by following the side of it that says "be a decent human and defend people and learn about their beliefs and feed them"...


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## Harkiran Kaur (May 13, 2016)

namritanevaeh said:


> These are good points but at the same time, what of worshiping a book as if it is a human? I'm not saying NOT to but if the creator is in everything then surely worshiping a stone is just as valid.
> 
> What I found interesting in reading some of the guru Nanak stories and him dismissing certain Hindu rituals was that he was seeming to say that what they were doing was absolutely false, and there was no use to it, it is an empty ritual, but that was his definition. If something MEANS something to you it should mean that that is not an empty ritual. Even if it means nothing to the person next door.
> 
> ...



I only have a min so I'll reply rest later but regarding Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we are not 'worshipping a book' as human. 

You could burn a saroop of SGGSJ, and you would not destroy our Guru. You could tear pages out, scribble on them, and our Guru would not be lost. You know why? It's not the physical pages or ink or the binding that we are bowing to out of respect, it's the TRUTH contained within it....Universal truth. That truth surpasses anything physical.


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