# Can Sikhs Eat Beef?



## singh351 (Jan 26, 2008)

I am a teenager of 16 years and currently eat all meat except beef. Recently I heard someone saying that there is no rule where that it states that Sikhs cannot eat beef.​ 

So I was wondering whether this was the case
ARE SIKHS ALLOWED TO EAT BEEF?​


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## Sikh80 (Jan 26, 2008)

You may kindly check up with Sikh Rehat nama.Please visit SGPC.net. You will find Rehatnama. Please read it and you will learn many new things and get the answer to your question as well.


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

Damdami Taksaal and AKJ maryada do not allow meat. keep in mind alot of those singhs who also drink and smoke follow sGPC. i know not all sikhs who drink and smoke too follow SGPC, and not all AKJers are as pure as they are supposed to be.

my advice, since in america, u do not know if animal meat was killed non hallal or non kosher (basically animal torture) do not eat it.

However if u are nihang and u chatka on goat, and see it killed right way, then why not eat meat?

Of course, i prefer to not eat any, tatse, smell, etc. do not appeal to me


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 26, 2008)

just ask urself- do YOU want to eat beef?

and then decide


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> just ask urself- do YOU want to eat beef?
> 
> and then decide



amar ji

while that works for some, we have to think about gurbani/ if we ask ourselves, do i wanna do japji sahib today?

We say no though we should.

do we wanna commit adultery?

Sure, though we shouldn't.

Just because want to do or not want to do something, that should not be  our guide in life, as gurmukh.

we should follow gurbani, not what we want.

Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 141

please see above


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 26, 2008)

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mehlā 1.
First Mehl
ਹਕੁ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸੁ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸੁ ਗਾਇ ॥
हकु पराइआ नानका उसु सूअर उसु गाइ ॥

Hak parā&shy;i&shy;ā nānkā us sū&shy;ar us gā&shy;ė.
: To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef.
ਗੁਰੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥
गुरु पीरु हामा ता भरे जा मुरदारु न खाइ ॥

Gur pīr hāmā ṯā bẖarė jā murḏār na kẖā&shy;ė.
Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses.



this is one of the similies used by Guru ji

he is explaining about taking something what is not rightfully ours - doing fraud, he equtes it to sin througha simily.

ਗਲੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ਛੁਟੈ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
गली भिसति न जाईऐ छुटै सचु कमाइ ॥
Galī bẖisaṯ na jā&shy;ī&shy;ai cẖẖutai sacẖ kamā&shy;ė.
By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth.

ਮਾਰਣ ਪਾਹਿ ਹਰਾਮ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
मारण पाहि हराम महि होइ हलालु न जाइ ॥
Māraṇ pāhi harām meh ho&shy;ė halāl na jā&shy;ė.
By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable.


haram andhalal are not words for meat. they are persian/arabic words for sinful and righteous. halal means correct, righteous. Haram means through wrong ways. the translator has tried to impose his own thoughts here.  justbecause meats are referred in similies above, it does not mean that Guruji were sermoning on eating meat or not.

Guruji started the sermon/vak for explaning righteous conduct and the outcomes of wrong doings.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਈ ਕੂੜੋ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥
नानक गली कूड़ीई कूड़ो पलै पाइ ॥२॥
Nānak galī kūṛī&shy;ī kūṛo palai pā&shy;ė. ||2||
O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. ||2||


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 26, 2008)

singh351 said:


> I am a teenager of 16 years and currently eat all meat except beef. Recently I heard someone saying that there is no rule where that it states that Sikhs cannot eat beef.​
> 
> So I was wondering whether this was the case
> ARE SIKHS ALLOWED TO EAT BEEF?​




yes, you're allowed to.  you're not a hindu.  you don't worship cow.  

however, if you live in india, most likely the only beef you will find is halal, and we are NOT allowed to eat halal.  so if you're in india, you probably should avoid beef.

now whether or not you should eat any meat is a different question.


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 1289

also insights on the above?

Sorry to be spamming this thread, but here are more gurbani verses

============================

kbIr jIA ju mwrih joru kir khqy hih ju hlwlu ] (1375-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer jee-a jo maareh jor kar kahtay heh jo halaal.
Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper.
dPqru deI jb kwiF hY hoiegw kaunu hvwlu ]199] (1375-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
daftar da-ee jab kaadh hai ho-igaa ka-un havaal. ||199||
When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? ||199||
kbIr joru kIAw so julmu hY lyie jbwbu Kudwie ] (1375-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer jor kee-aa so julam hai lay-ay jabaab khudaa-ay.
Kabeer, it is tyranny to use force; the Lord shall call you to account.
dPqir lyKw nIksY mwr muhY muih Kwie ]200] (1375-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
daftar laykhaa neeksai maar muhai muhi khaa-ay. ||200||
When your account is called for, your face and mouth shall be beaten. ||200||


=======================


rwm nwm kI giq nhI jwnI kYsy auqris pwrw ]1] (1103-1, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)
raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee kaisay utras paaraa. ||1||
You do not know the exalted state of the Lord's Name; how will you ever cross over? ||1||
jIA bDhu su Drmu kir Qwphu ADrmu khhu kq BweI ] (1103-2, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)
jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?
Awps kau muinvr kir Qwphu kw kau khhu ksweI ]2] (1103-2, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)
aapas ka-o munivar kar thaapahu kaa ka-o kahhu kasaa-ee. ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||


===========================


However, eating emat or not eating meat does not confer any cirtue, and has no real benefit besides better physical health and well being, and helps you gain respect for all gods creation. What we have in mind, our intent, and what we do matters more then not just eating meat. I hope you understand why i do not eat meat is to see gods presence in all, and is not ritual.


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## kds1980 (Jan 26, 2008)

singh351 said:


> I am a teenager of 16 years and currently eat all meat except beef. Recently I heard someone saying that there is no rule where that it states that Sikhs cannot eat beef.​
> 
> So I was wondering whether this was the case
> ARE SIKHS ALLOWED TO EAT BEEF?​




Sikhs can eat beef


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## Sikh80 (Jan 26, 2008)

This is the shabad referred to in the above posts. However, it is only a reference to flesh.There is no edict contained in it regarding taking or not taking the meat/flesh. You may follow the advice of kds ji and Jasleen ji.
I would suggest you to kindly go thru. Rehat Maryada at Sgpc.net.You will also learn many new things.:}:

*Shabad/Paurhi/Salok*
_ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮਿਆ ਮਾਸੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ॥_

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
सलोक मः १ ॥
Salok mehlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮਿਆ ਮਾਸੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ॥
पहिलां मासहु निमिआ मासै अंदरि वासु ॥
Pahilāŉ māsahu nimmi&shy;ā māsai anḏar vās.
First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh.

ਜੀਉ ਪਾਇ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਡੁ ਚੰਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਾਸੁ ॥
जीउ पाइ मासु मुहि मिलिआ हडु चमु तनु मासु ॥
Jī&shy;o pā&shy;ė mās muhi mili&shy;ā had cẖamm ṯan mās.
When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh.

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਢਿਆ ਮੰਮਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਗਿਰਾਸੁ ॥
मासहु बाहरि कढिआ ममा मासु गिरासु ॥
Māsahu bāhar kadẖi&shy;ā mammā mās girās.
He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast.

ਮੁਹੁ ਮਾਸੈ ਕਾ ਜੀਭ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੀ ਮਾਸੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਾਸੁ ॥
मुहु मासै का जीभ मासै की मासै अंदरि सासु ॥
Muhu māsai kā jībẖ māsai kī māsai anḏar sās.
His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh.

ਵਡਾ ਹੋਆ ਵੀਆਹਿਆ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥
वडा होआ वीआहिआ घरि लै आइआ मासु ॥
vadā ho&shy;ā vī&shy;āhi&shy;ā gẖar lai ā&shy;i&shy;ā mās.
He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home.

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਸਭੋ ਸਾਕੁ ॥
मासहु ही मासु ऊपजै मासहु सभो साकु ॥
Māsahu hī mās ūpjai māsahu sabẖo sāk.
Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਤਾਂ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
सतिगुरि मिलिऐ हुकमु बुझीऐ तां को आवै रासि ॥
Saṯgur mili&shy;ai hukam bujẖī&shy;ai ṯāŉ ko āvai rās.
When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then he comes to be reformed.

ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟੇ ਨਹ ਛੂਟੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਚਨਿ ਬਿਣਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
आपि छुटे नह छूटीऐ नानक बचनि बिणासु ॥१॥
Āp cẖẖutė nah cẖẖūtī&shy;ai Nānak bacẖan biṇās. ||1||
Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O Nanak, through empty words, one is ruined. ||1||


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## International Akaali (Jan 26, 2008)

Sherab said:


> Damdami Taksaal and AKJ maryada do not allow meat. keep in mind alot of those singhs who also drink and smoke follow sGPC. i know not all sikhs who drink and smoke too follow SGPC, and not all AKJers are as pure as they are supposed to be.
> 
> my advice, since in america, u do not know if animal meat was killed non hallal or non kosher (basically animal torture) do not eat it.
> 
> ...


 
Are suggesting that those that follow Sri Akal Takht Rehit Maryada which is PUBLISHED by the SGPC most likely drink or smoke? Can you tell me where in Sri Akal Takht Reyat maryada it say that drinking or smoking is allowed? Those that follow Maryada of Sri Akal Takht Sahib would never drink or smoke, please dont take actions of a few and label all the members of SGPC as drinkers or smokers. 


.... 

To the original Poster, Sikhs dont worship cows.The worship of cows is behind the reason for people not eating beef.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 26, 2008)

Sherab said:


> keep in mind alot of those singhs who also drink and smoke follow sGPC.



i think this is kind of offensive...  first, we don't follow SGPC, we follow Akal Takht.  and second, the rehat maryada clearly states that drinking and smoking are forbidden, so how can you say "a lot" of us do it?


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## Sikh80 (Jan 26, 2008)

Anyone who violates the Maryada would not be a sikh in true spirit. Hence the applicability of Maryada again on the one who has violated it is doubtful.
Once one is out of the periphery of the applicability of the rehat it is no point sating that one is sikh at all.


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

International Akaali said:


> Are suggesting that those that follow Sri Akal Takht Rehit Maryada which is PUBLISHED by the SGPC most likely drink or smoke? Can you tell me where in Sri Akal Takht Reyat maryada it say that drinking or smoking is allowed? Those that follow Maryada of Sri Akal Takht Sahib would never drink or smoke, please dont take actions of a few and label all the members of SGPC as drinkers or smokers.
> 
> 
> ....
> ...


Akaali ji,

the head council members may not. but soem of the sikhs who drink and go to pub PROBABLY follow SGPC.. all the AKJ and DamDami Taksaal folks i see, seem pretty rooted in rehit.

Sikh80,

I have read SGPC maryada many times.

Damdami taksaal maryada, which is one of the Takhats says:

hu`kw, hjwmq, hlwlo, hrwm ] ( AsPokt sYÍXy)
Hukka Smoking tobacco, and all other intoxicants. Hajamat Cutting, plucking, surgically removing, dying/bleaching hair. Defacing body by piercing or tattooing. Halalo Eating meat, fish and eggs. Haram Adultery and sexual relationships outside of marriage.

kuTw hu`kw, crs qmwkU [ gWjw topI qwVI KwkU ]30]
ien kI Er n kbhU dyKy [ rhqvMq jo isMG ibsyKy ]
"Meat, all forms of intoxicants (including tobacco, ganja/cannabis and alcohol), wearing of hats and doing the pretense of rubbing soil on the body. A Singh with excellent rehat doesn’t associate with people who are engrossed in these sinful habits." (Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh Jee, 148)

also:

=====================================================

3. Halaal – Eating meat, fish and eggs
The eating of meat is strictly forbidden in the house of the Guru. It is a cardinal sin to eat any type of meat whether it be Kutha or meat killed in any other fashion and it makes one a traitor to the Guru. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib there is no place where permission to eat meat is given, on the contrary it is condemned consistently and continually. A person that kills an animal and eats it, will be reborn in that life form and have to experience being killed and eaten.
kbIr KUbu Kwnw KIcrI jw mih AMimRqu lonu ]
hyrw rotI kwrny glw ktwvY kaunu ] 188]
"Kabeer, the eating of lentils(masoor) and rice is excellent, In which there is Amrit in the form of salt.
Who would cut his own throat, to have meat with his chappati?" (SGGSJ Ang 1374)
The Khalsa is a warrior, not being a Vaishnoo (those who do not kill any other living beings), but at the same time the Khalsa is not a butcher who kills for meat. Guru Jee used to go hunting to free souls from the cycle of births and deaths. We do not have the power to become Mukt (liberated) ourselves from the cycle of births and deaths let alone liberate others. When Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee lived at Sultanpur, a Qazi (Muslim priest) was killing a chicken but it escaped from his clutches and splashed his clothing with blood. The Qazi said to his servant, my clothes have become dirty, go and fetch fresh clothes. Satguru Jee composed the following Shabad in reference to the Qazi,
jy rqu lgY kpVY jwmw hoie plIqu ]
jo rqu pIvih mwxsw iqn ikau inrml cIqu ]
"If blood has stained your clothing you say your clothes have become impure.
How can the mind of those who eat meat, drink blood and suck bones become pure?" (SGGSJ Ang 140)
Qazi! If your clothes have become impure due to bloodstains then how can your mind stay pure after eating a chicken which is so large and full of blood. Eating meat just to satisfy your taste buds is strictly forbidden. Vaheguru has created 36 types of vegetarian food for you to consume, by eating meat your intellect becomes like that of an animal. Your mind becomes unwilling to recite Gurbani. Baba Deep Singh Jee lived on a diet of unripe Ber (a tropical fruit) and hand wrote four volumes of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, which were placed at four of the Takhats. At the age of 87, he went to war and defeated the tyrants. Within him he had the power of Naam, Bani and Amrit. To conclude, eating meat is not allowed in any form, this includes fish and eggs and ingredients in foods with lecithins, egg trace, gelatins etc. The Guru’s teachings are more precious to us than the pleasures of our tastebuds, we should try adopting a simple diet and steer away from eating processed foods which do commonly contain ingredients which we cannot consume, if you do consume these foods you must not become lazy or purposely ignorant of the ingredients, you are to remain forever alert of the great teachings of the Gurus. Thousands have been martyred to uphold this Rehat and have gone many gruelling days, weeks and months in battle or persecution whilst maintaining these high standards.



Source: Damdami Taksaal Online Website - Rehat Maryada



as for the AKJ:



link here: :: AKJ.Org :: Literature ::



I know i'm just copying and pasting, but it summarizes my views adaquately.



jasleen_kaur said:


> i think this is kind of offensive...  first, we don't follow SGPC, we follow Akal Takht.  and second, the rehat maryada clearly states that drinking and smoking are forbidden, so how can you say "a lot" of us do it?



Do you think majority of sikhs follow SGPC?

Obviously, yes.

Majority of singhs also drink, or so i hear.

Please correct if I am wrong.

Also please forgive spelling errors


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## Sikh80 (Jan 26, 2008)

Sherab ji,
Just for information:
Would you kindly let us know as to what are the consequences of not following Maryada irrespective of whether one violates the maryada and let it be known or not.


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Sherab ji,
> Just for information:
> Would you kindly let us know as to what are the consequences of not following Maryada irrespective of whether one violates the maryada and let it be known or not.


they are no longer considered a sikh, ji.

However, i do not think i have violated maryada at all.

SGPC says whetehr not we eat meat or not is up to us. I am choosing not too, as do 2 other jatha/Takhats go against eating meat.

I simply support their view.

Also, sorry if i have offended by saying all SGPC sikhs drink and smoke, but please see my reply to Jasleen-ji, for a clarification on my reasoning. It is NOT an attack.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 26, 2008)

********************
I would presume, as I am not sure, that one would not be a sikh for that period of time till/unless the things are rectified once again if the Maryada provides.

Sorry For late posting.

Sherab ji,
No Not at all. We are all learner here and try to be a better human being after every visit to the site else copying and pasting that I am doing is useless.
You have not broken any Maryada and who am I to judge.One is the best judge.
Coming back to the point if some sikh drinks and smokes he would not be a sikh on moral grounds. He will know himself. Hence no Maryada would be applicabe to him. Maryada is for those who would like to be in the periphery of A Sikh to whom Maryada can be made applicable.

I hope I have clarified myself.

A hindu is not supposed to kill a cow.If he kills one he does not remain a Hindu. Thus the code of hinduism ,if any as I do not know if they have some, would not be applicable to him the next time he kills a cow.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 26, 2008)

Sherab said:


> > Akaali ji,
> >
> > the head council members may not. but soem of the sikhs who drink and go to pub PROBABLY follow SGPC.. all the AKJ and DamDami Taksaal folks i see, seem pretty rooted in rehit.
> >
> ...


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

Jasleen ji, thank you for the info :-D

Sikh80 ji, thanks as well!

I think i have given enough info for original poster to see both sides of the arguement.


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## Astroboy (Jan 26, 2008)

Why would sikhs want to eat corpses ?
Partake the living amrit. It's a state of mind. Depending where you put your attention - habitually or by choice - the results are going to be delivered.


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## Sinister (Jan 26, 2008)

YouTube - Wendys' "Where's the Beef" Commercial

:}{}{}:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 27, 2008)

i thought it was the "Where is Bacon !!" ad !!

LOL


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## Pyramid (Jan 27, 2008)

Sherab said:


> Jasleen ji, thank you for the info :-D
> 
> Sikh80 ji, thanks as well!
> 
> I think i have given enough info for original poster to see both sides of the arguement.


 


Serab Ji,

I see the original Poster is-Singh351, and he posted it only yesterday :hmm::hmm:.

Are you and him the same? Looks like  you got lost in mutiple ID situation, I see that happening many times.

Tuhada Das

"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


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## Sherab (Jan 27, 2008)

Pyramid said:


> Serab Ji,
> 
> I see the original Poster is-Singh351, and he posted it only yesterday :hmm::hmm:.
> 
> ...


No, why would we be one in the same?

I use SPN everday, and assumed he does too.

By the way, i am 17 - not 16, and i do NOT eat beef, at all after a katha by Bhai Sukha Singh.


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## Pyramid (Jan 27, 2008)

Sherab Ji,

I just saw you concluding and thanking like A THREAD STARTER- so thought it may be happening that way. I thought it is too early to coclude unless it is coming from the thread starter himself.

Thanks for clearing my doubts.

Thanks again.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


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## Sinister (Jan 27, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> i thought it was the "Where is Bacon !!" ad !!
> 
> LOL


 
:}{}{}:... "wheres the beef" became a very popular slogan in the late 80's. 

to all the loving and caring vegetarians, this ones for you:
YouTube - 1980's Wendy's Commercial


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 27, 2008)

As far as I know, Sikhs are humans, humans happen to be omnivores! So you can eat anything you want!


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## Randip Singh (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> As far as I know, Sikhs are humans, humans happen to be omnivores! So you can eat anything you want!


 
True. Sikhism gives each and everyone of us a conscience. If one sees eating meat bad then don't eat. If one see's meat Ok then eat. Sikhism is more concerened with obsession of the tongue which can be with meat or vegetarian food.


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## spnadmin (Mar 14, 2008)

You are right in my opinion Randip ji. Obsession with the tongue can also be with gossip and other evils like that. I know I am off topic here. But the idea is what is in the heart determines how we live, how we eat, and what we consider sacred.


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Mar 14, 2008)

i fort no type of meat wz allowed in sikhi...so i dnt fink beef's allowed either..


pls help !!!


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> i fort no type of meat wz allowed in sikhi...so i dnt fink beef's allowed either..
> 
> 
> pls help !!!


Do you want help with your english or ... with the topic... :whisling:


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Do you want help with your english or ... with the topic... :whisling:


 
oh..noo..y u aftr me

ok..veerjii..i will not use slang anymore..if that makes u hapii !!

help me pls..


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> i fort no type of meat wz allowed in sikhi...so i dnt fink beef's allowed either..
> 
> 
> pls help !!!



whether or not to eat meat is left to the individual to decide.  no specific animal is prohibited.  however, halal (sacrificial slaughter) is prohibited.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> oh..noo..y u aftr me
> 
> ok..veerjii..i will not use slang anymore..if that makes u hapii !!
> 
> help me pls..


Well, that's a bit better!  I was just messing with you. 
To Jasleen Ji's comment, I would like to add that Halal is prohibited, because halal is the most inhumane way of killing the animal.  Scarificial meat is prohibited because it is a pointless ritual to offer meat to the God. In a way, it's like insulting God (BTW God never gets insulted but from the human perspective). It's like someone gives you a present and next year (on their birthday perhaps), you give it back to them. :}:


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Mar 14, 2008)

wt bwt fake meat flavoured crisps ??

lool...i stopped eating them..and i completely prohibited myself from eatiing it..finkin that no meat is allowed in sikhi..

i just want to follow the rehat maryada..init !!


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> wt bwt fake meat flavoured crisps ??
> 
> lool...i stopped eating them..and i completely prohibited myself from eatiing it..finkin that no meat is allowed in sikhi..
> 
> i just want to follow the rehat maryada..init !!


:{- What's that? Meat is allowed to, I think, you could eat them. Enjoy! :{;o:


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Mar 14, 2008)

i want to be a gursikh..n take amrit soon as possible !!


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> i want to be a gursikh..n take amrit soon as possible !!


Same here, and I used to be vegetarian, now I eat meat sometimes.


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> :{- What's that? Meat is allowed to, I think, you could eat them. Enjoy! :{;o:


 

emm...nah..fanx..

i dont think i'll be eating them..fanx for da suggestion tho !!


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> :{- What's that? Meat is allowed to, I think, you could eat them. Enjoy! :{;o:


 

emm..singh ji..am u amritdhari ??


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> emm...nah..fanx..
> 
> i dont think i'll be eating them..fanx for da suggestion tho !!




do what you feel is right in your heart and from your understanding of Gurbani.  i'm vegetarian...  not because i think it's prohibited to eat meat, but because i try to live a simple, healthy life, and a vegetarian diet goes well with that. 

the important thing is to avoid getting a lust for food.  even veg food...  if you lust for chocolates, it's no different than lusting for burgers.     avoiding lust is a big part of being sikh. 

keep it simple.  God lives in every body, we should keep our body healthy to honour God.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

Anonymous_Kaur said:


> emm..singh ji..am u amritdhari ??


No I want to be but half of the nitnem banis Amritdhari's are supposed to do come from dasam granth AKA <insert another made up name>, and that book ain't for everyone. :}:
But anyway, check out Randip Singh Ji's articles, I think it's called Fools who wrangle over Flesh. 
Are you a homo sapien (human), anonymous kaur? 
As far as I know, homo sapiens have teeth made for both plant meat and animal meat. We are omnivores(all-eaters) not herbivores(plant-eaters). And gurbani does not deny this.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> No I want to be but half of the nitnem banis Amritdhari's are supposed to do come from dasam granth AKA <insert another made up name>, and that book ain't for everyone. :}:




what?  "singh sabha international" of canada hasn't created their own version of amrit sanchar yet? :}{}{}:


(yes, i know it's another topic, but i couldn't resist.  )


----------



## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> what? "singh sabha international" of canada hasn't created their own version of amrit sanchar yet? :}{}{}:
> 
> 
> (yes, i know it's another topic, but i couldn't resist.  )


:}{}{}: Hehe, Singh Sabha _International of Canada_?!? Good one! 

Meh...:}: I am not gona bother with amrit sanchar, I am starting to think it's the spirit of the person, not the sweetened water that provides the strength. I think Guru Gobind Singh started it because it probably attracted more attention than simply stating that you have to follow certain rules etc.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> :}{}{}: Hehe, Singh Sabha _International of Canada_?!? Good one!
> 
> Meh...:}: I am not gona bother with amrit sanchar, I am starting to think it's the spirit of the person, not the sweetened water that provides the strength. I think Guru Gobind Singh started it because it probably attracted more attention than simply stating that you have to follow certain rules etc.




ya, i thought it was funny that a small canadian based group would name themselves after the major sikh reform movement myself.  

anyway, to each his own path.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> ya, i thought it was funny that a small canadian based group would name themselves after the major sikh reform movement myself.


Now you lost me.  What areyou talking about?
Hehe, I thought you called me the Singh Sabha internation of Canada, and that was funny!


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Now you lost me.



sorry to divert from the topic. 

let's get back to the "meat" of things!


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Now you lost me.  What areyou talking about?
> Hehe, I thought you called me the Singh Sabha internation of Canada, and that was funny!


edit


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 14, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> edit




oh, sorry.

there's a canadian based organization called "singh sabha international".  they are strongly anti-dasam granth (please let's not do that debate here).  i can only assume they use the "singh sabha" name to confuse people, as they're unrelated to most "singh sabha" gurdwaras in north america.

sorry for the confusion.


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## Inder singh (Mar 14, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> oh, sorry.
> 
> there's a canadian based organization called "singh sabha international".  they are strongly anti-dasam granth (please let's not do that debate here).  i can only assume they use the "singh sabha" name to confuse people, as they're unrelated to most "singh sabha" gurdwaras in north america.
> 
> sorry for the confusion.



Just for clarification.they do not  believe that a sikh should  have hair.The name singh sabha is given to confuse people.

Bahagt singh, we have another thread going  on Dasam granth.if you have anything to say on Dasam granth ,please post there.It comes under "Hard Talk".


----------



## BhagatSingh (Mar 14, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Just for clarification.they do not believe that a sikh should have hair.The name singh sabha is given to confuse people.
> 
> Bahagt singh, we have another thread going on Dasam granth.if you have anything to say on Dasam granth ,please post there.It comes under "Hard Talk".


Okee Dokee
Could you provide a link to their site?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 15, 2008)

In the Sikh Kingdom, cow slaughter was punishable as a crime. It was part of British colonialism which brought halal butchers and beef into Punjab. And this was resisted with Cow Protection movement of both Hindus and Sikhs.

Why?

These arguments are based on certain assumptions. The asumptions are that the cow is just an animal. Killing of an animal is fine, like it is a nothing. A cow is nothing to be superstitious about. So by not being superstitious, people demean a cow to something less than life? By not being superstitious we no longer believe in spiritual principles? This mental trick makes a cow into a commodity to be used and destroyed at human whim. A butcher can recite prayers of blessing (halal) over the slaughtered cow and render it spiritually fit for consumption. And the only element which is wrong here is the Muslim prayers, and not the hypocrisy of blessing in the name of God the killing of an innocent creature for selfishness and greed? 


> ijau imil bCry gaU pRIiq lgwvY ] (164-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 4)
> ji-o mil bachhray ga-oo pareet lagaavai.
> As the cow shows her love to her strayed calf when she finds it,
> 
> ...





> hm bwirk hir ipqw pRB myry mo kau dyhu mqI ijqu hir pwvIAY ry ] (1118-8, kydwrw, mÚ 4)
> ham baarik har pitaa parabh mayray mo ka-o dayh matee jit har paavee-ai ray.
> I am a child, and You, O my Lord God, are my Father; please bless me with such understanding, that I may find the Lord.
> 
> ...


Gurbani describes the cow as a loving mother. Not an object worthy of indifferent slaughter to appease the lusts of our taste.



> kwmDyn hir hir gux gwm ] (265-5, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
> kaamDhayn har har gun gaam.
> The Khaamadhayn, the cow of miraculous powers, is the singing of the Glory of the Lord's Name, Har, Har.


How can a cow be fit for a life of neglect, misery and slaughter for human enjoyment if a cow can be holy and praise the God? Gurbani does not say worship the cow. It isn't proof that you don't worship a cow by showing disrespect for the life of the living being. Gurbani is acknowledging that holiness can be present in the life of a cow.



> pauxu gurU pwxI ipq jwqw ] (1021-2, mwrU, mÚ 1)
> pa-un guroo paanee pit jaataa.
> Air is the Guru, and water is known to be the father.
> 
> ...


 


> Kwk nUr krdM Awlm dunIAwie ] (723-13, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
> khaak noor kardaN aalam dunee-aa-ay.
> The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.
> 
> ...


 


> kbIr KUbu Kwnw KIcrI jw mih AMimRqu lonu ] (1374-12, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
> kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
> Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
> 
> ...


 


> hwtI bwtI rhih inrwly rUiK ibriK auidAwny ] (938-19, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
> haatee baatee raheh niraalay rookh birakh udi-aanay.
> "Away from stores and highways, we live in the woods, among plants and trees.
> 
> ...


 


> kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)
> kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
> In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
> 
> ...


Just look at how maya works. We don't see the truth of things...we just see the pretty wrapper. It's more pleasant that way. But not seeing the truth of something doesn't stop it from being true.

What is the truth about Western cow diet? The truth is demonic brutality and curse of disease. 85% of milk in America is infected with Bovine leukemia virus associated with human breast cancer and childhood leukemia. Mad Cow disease is spreading because of insane agricultural practices. The association between Creuztsfeldt-Jacob (human mad cow disease) disease and Alzheimers is very unclear. A possibility remains that an epidemic of mad cow disease is hiding from the public as Alzheimers dementia. Cancer is caused by eating meat prepared in such barbarous and grotesque fashion. No one in their right mind could think the cattle industry is morally right. This is contaminated and diseased food obtained by animal cruelty and indifference to life itself.

Bovine leukemia virus and human breast cancer risk 
Research Page: Bovine leukemia virus and human breast cancer risk

Thinking the unthinkable: Alzheimer's, Creutzfeldt-Jakob and Mad Cow disease
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/google/abstract.asp?AcNo=20053037405



> _Avoid meat in all forms. It is dead matter, low in minerals, and produces uric acid in excess which is a waste product. The incidence of cancer is in direct proportion to the amount of animal proteins, particularly meat, in the diet. However it is true that devitalized, processed, and sugared food can also cause cancer—even in vegetarians. But far more often, when cancer strikes, those eating the junk foods are also eating meat. Nations and groups which consume less meat have less cancer. _
> 
> _FAQ - Why Do Alternative Cancer Therapies Forbid Meat?_


Cow protection? Why not? Animal slaughter is demonic. And the chemicals produced by the suffering, fear and stress of such treatment is eaten in foods prepared for human beings. People are eating suffering and disease in these carcasses. What a curse. Why choose a curse for your life and hide ugly deeds with religious sanction as if God does not see the truth. 

This kind of industry isn't acceptable to Sikh religion. Not on your life. You just can't treat life this way and not reap the negativity in your own future. This is maha paap. You are eating poison. Don't deceive yourself. 

People want to eat the hell of this nightmare?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjSlOOYIkCE

Largest Beef Recall in American History 
YouTube - The Nations Largest Beef Recall in History...

Cow Protection USA
YouTube - MAD COW OR MAD HUMAN DISEASE ?








> What you eat today will influence the way you think which in turn will influence the way you look ,which in turn will influence your future.
> 
> Eat lovingly And you will be loved ,eat mercilessly and the world will not be compassionate towards you.
> 
> KARMA FREE


 
~Bhul chak maaf


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## Inder singh (Mar 15, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Okee Dokee
> Could you provide a link to their site?



Please go to

The Sikh Bulletin: November-December 2007

Click on edition of April 2007 and read page 17 and 18


----------



## BhagatSingh (Mar 15, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Gurbani describes the cow as a loving mother. Not an object worthy of indifferent slaughter to appease the lusts of our taste.




It describes cow as a loving mother, but it does not say anything about slaughtering it.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> How can a cow be fit for a life of neglect, misery and slaughter for human enjoyment if a cow can be holy and praise the God? Gurbani does not say worship the cow. It isn't proof that you don't worship a cow by showing disrespect for the life of the living being. Gurbani is acknowledging that holiness can be present in the life of a cow.




Anything, could worhsip and praise the lord. So why would you eat anything?


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 15, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> In the Sikh Kingdom, cow slaughter was punishable as a crime. It was part of British colonialism which brought halal butchers and beef into Punjab. And this was resisted with Cow Protection movement of both Hindus and Sikhs.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



wouldn't this apply to ALL animals, not just cows in particular?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 16, 2008)

> wouldn't this apply to ALL animals, not just cows in particular?


Yes! But the discussion is about cows in particular. Animal slaughter is morally troubling. Vegetarianism is a spiritually disciplined way to live your life...and eating meat is not. 




> Anything, could worhsip and praise the lord. So why would you eat anything?


You did not watch the videos of slaughterhouses? You did not hear the animals screaming? Could you possibly make the comparision between a cow and a potato? There are higher and lower forms of life. Eating a cabbage does not spill blood or elicit fear and screaming from a sentient being. If something you eat is bleeding and has to suffer pain and be killed to satisfy your lust for certain taste, you can imagine the karmic consequences of such actions.

Even Gurbani describes that certain animals, such as tiger were designed to be meat-eating. Human beings can eat both vegetarian and meat diets. But look at the health differences between them. The discussion revolves around "_what is acceptable to Sikh religion_." You have free choice. But don't blindly wrap this animal cruelty and slaughter in a neat hamburger package and say it is perfectly consistent with a spiritual teaching, because it clearly is not. 


At some point, we have to be accountable for our actions. It's no sewa to society to promote sick, contaminated foods. We need to make better, dharmically healthier choices than these. It's sad that in the name of Sikh religion, people don't defend human health or even kindness to animals. But rather defend their own denials and evil actions that torment living beings.


> _For hundreds of thousands of years the stew in the pot_
> 
> _Has brewed hatred and resentment that is difficult to stop._
> 
> ...


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 16, 2008)

i do love your display pic, bhenji. 


> wouldn't this apply to ALL animals, not just cows in particular?
> Yes! But the discussion is about cows in particular. Animal slaughter is morally troubling. Vegetarianism is a spiritually disciplined way to live your life...and eating meat is not.




i wanted to clarify this, because some Sikhs have been influenced by Hindu groups and believe that eating other meat is acceptable but eating cow is not.

it seems like it should be either all or nothing.  i just wanted to note that the cow holds no special place above other animals in Sikhi that i am aware of.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 16, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Yes! But the discussion is about cows in particular. Animal slaughter is morally troubling. Vegetarianism is a spiritually disciplined way to live your life...and eating meat is not.


How do you know?



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> You did not watch the videos of slaughterhouses? You did not hear the animals screaming? Could you possibly make the comparision between a cow and a potato?



Yes I hear onion screaming when I cut them. Sometimes i even break into tears. Plants are living things as well, just because they don't "scream" doesn't mean they want you to eat them. They have other ways of trying to keep you away. For example, bad taste (most common), onions making you cry, releasing toxins. 



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> There are higher and lower forms of life.



Gurbani says there is God in all so who is high and who is low?


Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Eating a cabbage does not spill blood or elicit fear and screaming from a sentient being.



Yes it does, just because plants don't have red blood( with hemoglobin) doesn't mean they don't have any.


Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> If something you eat is bleeding and has to suffer pain and be killed to satisfy your lust for certain taste, you can imagine the karmic consequences of such actions.



well, who doesn't lust for food? I used to be a vegetarian and lusted for vegetarian foods. Now I am a non vegetarian, and I still lust for vegetarian foods but not non-veg foods. 



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Even Gurbani describes that certain animals, such as tiger were designed to be meat-eating. Human beings can eat both vegetarian and meat diets. But look at the health differences between them.



Well, non-veg is more healthy. Excess of everything is bad, alot of meat or apple, will have bad effects on your body. 


Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> The discussion revolves around "_what is acceptable to Sikh religion_." You have free choice. But don't blindly wrap this animal cruelty and slaughter in a neat hamburger package and say it is perfectly consistent with a spiritual teaching, because it clearly is not.


Animal cruelty?? What about vegetable cruelty!!??!! 
It is perfectly consistent. Look at Guru Nanak, he ate meat. 
At this place, Hindus were like don't cook when there is a solar eclispse. Guru Nanak grabs some meat and cooks it, when the solar eclipse came. I don't think he would waste it. 
Look at Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh, we all know they hunted. Now they wouldn't waste precious meat, would they?


Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> At some point, we have to be accountable for our actions. It's no sewa to society to promote sick, contaminated foods.



Yes, we have to wash the stuff we eat. I agree!


Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> We need to make better, dharmically healthier choices than these. It's sad that in the name of Sikh religion, people don't defend human health or even kindness to animals. But rather defend their own denials and evil actions that torment living beings.


and kindness to vegetables.
There is no spiritual benefit from not eating animal meat. So, stop making up stuff, if you don't want to eat that's fine.


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 21, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Yes! But the discussion is about cows in particular. Animal slaughter is morally troubling. Vegetarianism is a spiritually disciplined way to live your life...and eating meat is not.
> 
> 
> You did not watch the videos of slaughterhouses? You did not hear the animals screaming? Could you possibly make the comparision between a cow and a potato? There are higher and lower forms of life. Eating a cabbage does not spill blood or elicit fear and screaming from a sentient being. If something you eat is bleeding and has to suffer pain and be killed to satisfy your lust for certain taste, you can imagine the karmic consequences of such actions.
> ...



Most of what you are talking about has been tackled here, and Bani you have stated above has been rebutted and shown to be mistranslated, misquoted or misrepresented. There is only ONE reference directly to meat in Bani, the rest are spurious:

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 

_mehlaa 1._
_maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai._
_ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay._
_gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay._
_maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay._
_farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai._
_naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai._
_anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee._
_maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee._

_First Mehl:_
_The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom._
_What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?_
_It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering._
_Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night._
_They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom._
_O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said._
_They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts._
_They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat._
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji 

There is nothing special in Bani about a cow,. This is a hangover from Vaishnavism (and Hinduism in general).

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

There

Suffice to say I find your arguments inconsistent and I cannot reconcile the so called cruelty to animals with cruelty to plants:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 

_mehlaa 1._
_vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay._
_khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay._
_ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay._
_bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay._
_naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay._

_First Mehl:_
_Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,_
_and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed._
_What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out._
_And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below._
_Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!_
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


Sikhism places no such emphasis on a particular diet for spirituality. It is a matter for individual conscience.


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## Astroboy (Mar 21, 2008)

ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰੈ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
sachee kaarai sach milai guramath palai paae ||
*By true actions, the True Lord is met, and the Guru's Teachings are found.*

ਸੋ ਨਰੁ ਜੰਮੈ ਨਾ ਮਰੈ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
so nar janmai naa marai naa aavai naa jaae ||
Then, they are not subject to birth and death; they do not come and go in reincarnation.


ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਸੋ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਪੈਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੪॥ 
naanak dhar paradhhaan so dharagehi paidhhaa jaae ||4||14||
O Nanak, they are respected at the Lord's Gate; they are robed in honor in the Court of the Lord.

*So what is true action ?*
Answer found in Sidh Gost.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/5309-sidh-gosht-gurumukhi-script-english-transleration.html

Happy Hunting!!


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *Harjas Kaur Khalsa*
> 
> 
> _
> ...


_
Full agreement here.
_



randip singh said:


> Most of what you are talking about has been tackled here, and Bani you have stated above has been rebutted and shown to be mistranslated, misquoted or misrepresented. There is only ONE reference directly to meat in Bani, the rest are spurious:
> 
> Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> 
> ...



Total disagreement here. The answer to this post is in the second half of the first verse.

_maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay *gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.*
__The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

Who are the people being considered fools here , "those who know nothing about Gi-aan and Dhi-aan.

So in order to fully understand what Guru Nanak Dev ji is saying here one needs a deep understanding of Gi-aan - Spiritual knowledge and Dhi-aan - Meditation.

Perhaps our thread supporting *very senior moderator *would like to give an in-depth analysis to explain his forum what is meant by the above terms and since he is also a "Historian" if he take the trouble of giving the forum an account of the events/life style prior to the birth of Guru Nanak Dev ji so that we can fully understand his justification for the above two translations in the context of the Philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev ji. What is Gi-aan and Dhi-aan as per SGGS. Kindly explain in detail.(please adhere to the rules of your own forum) and no wishy washey answers please.

If the case history of Guru Nanak cooking meat in Korokshetar (where this shabad was first delivered) at the Largest Hindu Festival, is used by some to justify that he has authorised eating meat (i.e. killing innocent animals for food) then could the author also on the same lines explain whether Guru Nanak's visit to Mecca disguised as a Muslim be taken as an acceptance of the values of Islam on the standing of meat eating.

_


> Sikhism places no such emphasis on a particular diet for spirituality. It is a matter for individual conscience.



Explain the origin and need for sikhism.?




> Suffice to say I find your arguments inconsistent and I cannot reconcile the so called cruelty to animals with cruelty to plants:



The feeling is mutual here.  We hope you too will provide consistent arguments.
 
_Your constructive and well supported answer would be very much appreciated.

Look forward to a mature response.

ekmusafir_ajnabi
_


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## Randip Singh (Mar 23, 2008)

namjap said:


> ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰੈ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
> sachee kaarai sach milai guramath palai paae ||
> *By true actions, the True Lord is met, and the Guru's Teachings are found.*
> 
> ...



Please elaborate further on what you mean?


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## Randip Singh (Mar 23, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> _
> Full agreement here.
> _
> 
> ...



Hi Ekh Musfir, all your points have been rebutted before, and therfore no point treading over the same water. Try and keep the remarks non personal too.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Thanks


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 23, 2008)

randip singh said:


> Hi Ekh Musfir, all your points have been rebutted before, and therfore no point treading over the same water. Try and keep the remarks non personal too.
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html
> 
> Thanks



No Randip Singh, the above points have not been addressed. In order to fully understand Guru Nanak and His bani, one needs to start from the begining. Guru Nanak ji has addressed those people as fools who have not understood Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan. It appears that at this moment we are all fools for not understanding Guru Nanak and that you have an advantage over us. So as a senior Mod and originator of the thread we are presently looking up to you to tell us what Gyi-aan and  Dhi-aan is and various other questions that I have put forward on behalf of the members together with a historical events behind the Gurus Bani w.r.t the issues that Guru Nanak Dev ji challanged head on.

You as Senior Mod and a Historian and as per the rules of your Forum, please enlighten us where we are wrong  against your thread.

If  your are unsure of your ground then please bring in someone who can answer these questions.

Look forward to your response.  I assure you that I will keep my remarks non-personal and expect you too  accept  your shortfalls too. 

ekmusafir_ajnabi.


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## Admin (Mar 23, 2008)

> You as Senior Mod and a Historian and as per the rules of your Forum, please enlighten us where we are wrong against your thread.



Isn't a "_Senior Mod_" not entitled to his views? ekmusafir ji, surely you could do much better than to use so many *adjectives* to impress upon your point of view. These adjectives rather make your stance weaker.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 23, 2008)

Aman Singh said:


> Isn't a "_Senior Mod_" not entitled to his views? ekmusafir ji, surely you could do much better than to use so many *adjectives* to impress upon your point of view. These adjectives rather make your stance weaker.



 It is not just the case of some ones view, Aman ji,. It is a very serious issue that has baffled numerous people and split Sikh Dharam over the years by miss-quotations and miss-understandings. Besides it is a *Statement* by Randip Singh where by his own admission, he has contributed to the Essay only as an editor. The essay is by unknown authors whom he fully supports, (Perhaps they should come forth and be answerable to their Essay or an apology is in order by him to the Forum for miss-leading the community).

  The reason for addressing Mr Randip Singh as a ”Senior Mod” is to inform members (New and Old)  this discussion is taking place with a Senior member of the Forum who is also a Historian.. ( It was intended to be an introduction.) So that he should be taken seriously. What ever he says should be taken as a statement and not an opinion.  No where in the past  has he stated that it is his opinion. He is the editor of the Essay. One has to believe in it and cannot be done on the basis of an opinion. He perhaps knows something better that I am intending to explore for the sake of the future of Sikhism and Sikh Philosophy.

  As per your very own suggestion and forum rules of asking what I do not know and 
  based on the verse “*Maas** maas kar moorakh jhagrey* “ I am also taking the stance of a Moorakh here at this instance. “*Gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.* “   I would like to understand what is it that Guru Nanak Dev ji trying to say that we all seem to have got it wrong. What is the basis of Sikhism as per Guru Nanak Dev ji.

  I assure you that I will refrain from using the adjectives as you have pointed out. Please let me know in the future if I set over the boundary. I look forward to your personal input here.


  Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## kds1980 (Mar 23, 2008)

ekmusafir ji

A much bigger and broader essay in 20 parts is written by principal gyani surjit singh
The name of that essay is " Kaun maas kaun saag kahavey".But it is in gurmukhi.
Most of the points that are written in the essay fools who wrangle over flesh is covered in it
As you beleive yourself a person with great knowledge of gurbani and sikh history.Why don't you try to refute him

Here is the link

KAUN MAAS KAUN SAAG KHAVEY 01


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 23, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> ekmusafir ji
> 
> A much bigger and broader essay in 20 parts is written by principal gyani surjit singh
> The name of that essay is " Kaun maas kaun saag kahavey".But it is in gurmukhi.
> ...



 KDS1980

  I categorically refute all his claims. The Essay in this now appears to be nothing more regurgitation of  thoughts of Principal Gyani Surjit Singh with added swings and roundabouts  and unfounded baseless allegations.. It is a result of those who have missed the first few essential lessons of Gurmat and have exercised “Padiya moorakh aakhiae, jit labh lobh ahankaar”. The twenty part Essay is a result of one who has failed to understand Guru Nanak and has made a display of his Manmat. 

  If  Sikh Philosophy Network subscribe to his thinking then I feel very sorry for Sikhism and its future. It is your duty as modern Sikhs to question these perpetrators who are undermining the basic tenets of Guru Nanaks’ Phillosophy. If you do not understand Sikhism yourself how can you fulfil you duty as guardians. It is your duty as Mods to first understand Sikhism from the top rather than rely and promote poor quality essays and thoughts being circulated in this Forum. 

  The only way you will come to the truth is if you, along with understanding Gurbani also understand the circumstances in which and against what calibre of opponent it was delivered. Then and only then you can have progress. Consider it your good fortune that I am sharing this with this Form. 

  What you do in not of any consequence to me. But bear in mind that to propagate falsehood and misunderstanding is being “Bemukh” with our Gurus. The Bhatt Bani stands as a testimony of the appreciation of Bhatts when they were forgiven in the same life for turning their face for intimidating Guru Arjan Dev ji. (Ref Satta and Balwand). 

  Refer to Anand Sahib an see What Guru Amardas ji says about Bemukhs. 

  jy ko gur qy vymuKu hovY ibnu siqgur mukiq n pwvY ] 
jay ko gur tay vaimukh hovai bin satgur mukat na paavai.
One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.
   pwvY mukiq n hor QY koeI puChu ibbykIAw jwey ] 
paavai mukat na hor thai ko-ee puchhahu bibaykee-aa jaa-ay.
He shall not find liberation anywhere else either; go and ask the wise ones about this.
   Anyk jUnI Brim AwvY ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ] 
anayk joonee bharam aavai vin satgur mukat na paa-ay.
He shall wander through countless incarnations; without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.
   iPir mukiq pwey lwig crxI siqgurU sbdu suxwey ] 
fir mukat paa-ay laag charnee satguroo sabad sunaa-ay.
But liberation is attained, when one is attached to the feet of the True Guru, chanting the Word of the Shabad.
   khY nwnku vIcwir dyKhu ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ]22] 
kahai naanak veechaar daykhhu vin satgur mukat na paa-ay. ||22||
Says Nanak, contemplate this and see, that without the True Guru, there is no liberation. ||22||
  Be grateful for what Our Gurus message to you all.

  Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Randip Singh (Mar 23, 2008)

deleted post


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## Randip Singh (Mar 23, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> The essay is by unknown authors whom he fully supports, (Perhaps they should come forth and be answerable to their Essay or an apology is in order by him to the Forum for miss-leading the community).



Apology for what exactly?

It is for you to rebut the essay. You failed and you left the forum and came back.



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> The reason for addressing Mr Randip Singh as a ”Senior Mod” is to inform members (New and Old)  this discussion is taking place with a Senior member of the Forum who is also a Historian..



You have no such intention. Your intention is as per usual to discuss the person rather than the topic. Sorry not playing your childish game.



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> ( It was intended to be an introduction.) So that he should be taken seriously. What ever he says should be taken as a statement and not an opinion.  No where in the past  has he stated that it is his opinion. He is the editor of the Essay. One has to believe in it and cannot be done on the basis of an opinion. He perhaps knows something better that I am intending to explore for the sake of the future of Sikhism and Sikh Philosophy.



There are credible references in the essay from cited sources. You on the other hand are just someone who posts on the internet behind another name.



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> As per your very own suggestion and forum rules of asking what I do not know and
> based on the verse “*Maas** maas kar moorakh jhagrey* “ I am also taking the stance of a Moorakh here at this instance. “*Gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.* “   I would like to understand what is it that Guru Nanak Dev ji trying to say that we all seem to have got it wrong. What is the basis of Sikhism as per Guru Nanak Dev ji.



No.

You explain to us what Guru Nanak is saying. You are doing exactly what the essay is saying, i.e. taking one or two lines out and trying to make them fit what you think. It won't work.





ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I assure you that I will refrain from using the adjectives as you have pointed out. Please let me know in the future if I set over the boundary. I look forward to your personal input here.
> 
> Ekmusafir_ajnabi



Yourr assurances are hollow.

You have inulted, attacked many memebers here, gone from the forum and come back. Claimed to be a personal friend of the Guru's and then complain of skin problems. Please do not vent frustratuions out on this forum. This is for intellectual discussion.

Thanks


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## kds1980 (Mar 23, 2008)

> I categorically refute all his claims. The Essay in this now appears to be nothing more regurgitation of thoughts of Principal Gyani Surjit Singh with added swings and roundabouts and unfounded baseless allegations.. It is a result of those who have missed the first few essential lessons of Gurmat and have exercised “Padiya moorakh aakhiae, jit labh lobh ahankaar”. The twenty part Essay is a result of one who has failed to understand Guru Nanak and has made a display of his Manmat.



I am sorry but if someone does not agree with you that does not makes him moorakh.



> If  Sikh Philosophy Network subscribe to his thinking then I feel very sorry for Sikhism and its future.



No need to feel sorry for sikhism and its future



> It is your duty as Mods to first understand Sikhism from the top rather than rely and promote poor quality essays and thoughts being circulated in this Forum.



Mods are no supermen they are just common paricipants who regularly and peacefully participate in discussions.We all here are trying to learn sikhism with the abilty which waheguru has given to us.



> The only way you will come to the truth is if you, along with understanding Gurbani also understand the circumstances in which and against what calibre of opponent it was delivered. Then and only then you can have progress. Consider it your good fortune that I am sharing this with this Form.



I agree with you we should try to understand the circumstance and calibre of opponent in which the gurbani was delivered.But is it also not true that Guru's do not wrote any full shabad which condemns meat eating.Is it not not proof that guru's did not prescribed any particular diet?.Also apart from gurbani we have sikh history and nowhwere in sikh history we have any solid evidence that meat eating is condemned.Also your statement that we should try to understand the circumstance is equally applicable to lines which are used
justify vegetarianism.Its better if you people will open your mind and try to understand gurbani and sikh history with open mind.



> What you do in not of any consequence to me. But bear in mind that to propagate falsehood and misunderstanding is being “Bemukh” with our Gurus.



I am really sorry to say but you have not authority to judge who is propagating falsehood
and who is bemukh.


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## spnadmin (Mar 24, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> KDS1980
> 
> 
> Refer to Anand Sahib an see What Guru Amardas ji says about Bemukhs.
> ...



The Shabad can be found on Ang 920, and the English is in  the Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa translation.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 24, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> The Shabad can be found on Ang 920, and the English is in  the Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa translation.



The translation was acceptable hence It was posted. What is your point here?


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 24, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> I am really sorry to say but you have not authority to judge who is propagating falsehood
> and who is bemukh.



You can now wait for the Gurus to personally come and advise you who is propagating falsehood and who is bemukh if history and a personal account is insufficient evidence for you.

Good Luck.


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## Astroboy (Mar 24, 2008)

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਵੇਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
ਪਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਕੋਈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਜਾਏ ॥
ਅਨੇਕ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥
ਫਿਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਲਾਗਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੨੨॥

ਵੇਮੁਖੁ = ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਦੂਜੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਮੁਕਤਿ = ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ, ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ। ਹੋਰਥੈ = ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਥਾਂ ਤੋਂ। ਬਿਬੇਕੀ = ਪਰਖ ਵਾਲਾ ਬੰਦਾ, ਵਿਚਾਰਵਾਨ। ਜਾਏ = ਜਾਇ, ਜਾ ਕੇ। ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ = ਭਟਕ ਕੇ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੨੨।



(ਜਿਥੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਸਹਿਮ ਹੈ ਉਥੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਲ੍ਹਰ ਸਕਦਾ, ਪਰ) ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਲੋਂ ਮੂੰਹ ਮੋੜ ਲਏ (ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਨਸੀਬ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ) ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਕਿਸੇ ਵਿਚਾਰਵਾਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੁੱਛ ਲਵੋ (ਤੇ ਤਸੱਲੀ ਕਰ ਲਵੋ, ਇਹ ਪੱਕੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਹੋਰ ਥਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਮਾਇਕ ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਫਸਿਆ ਮਨੁੱਖ) ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਜੂਨੀਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕਦਾ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਇਸ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। ਆਖ਼ਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਚਰਨੀਂ ਲੱਗ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ (ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵਨ-ਮਾਰਗ ਦਾ) ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਸੁਣਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ-ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਵੇਖ ਲਵੋ, ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋਂ ਆਜ਼ਾਦੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ, (ਤੇ ਇਸ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ)।੨੨। ❁ ਭਾਵ: ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਅਤੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ-ਇਹ ਦੋਵੇਂ ਇਕੋ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਟਿਕ ਸਕਦੇ। ਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ ਰਸਤਾ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ।


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 24, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> This was my conversation with Aman ji and was hoping for him to respond. [/FONT]I do not intend to respond to it.
> 
> I did ask you several questions in the previous posts in the hope you would take a more mature stance but I am yet again bitterly disappointed. Calling oneself a Historian and a Sikh does not make one.
> 
> ...




yet another case of ekmusafir getting away with insulting people with no action from mods. 

why is this person not subject to the same rules of the forum as the rest of us?


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## kds1980 (Mar 24, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> You can now wait for the Gurus to personally come and advise you who is propagating falsehood and who is bemukh if history and a personal account is insufficient evidence for you.
> 
> Good Luck.



From past 3 years I am reading everything that is available on this issue.could you please tell me what history and personal account I missed.As far as I know there is nothing in sikh history and personal account that prohibits meat eating.


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## svea00 (Mar 24, 2008)

namjap said:


> ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਵੇਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ਪਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਕੋਈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਜਾਏ ॥ਅਨੇਕ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥ਫਿਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਲਾਗਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੨੨॥



jay ko gur tay vaymukh hovai ban satgur mukat na paavai. 
pavai mukat na hor thai ko-ee puchahu babiaykee-aa jaa-ay.
anayk joonee bharam aavai vin satgur mukat na paa-ay.
dar mukat paa-ay laag charnee satguru sabad sunaa-ay.
kahai naanak veechar daykhahu van satgur mukat na paa-ay. (22)


Can we please work together and get the English translation on this, so that everyone can profit from your post, namjap?


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## Astroboy (Mar 24, 2008)

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਵੇਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
Jė ko gur ṯė vaimukẖ hovai bin saṯgur mukaṯ na pāvai.
One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.

ਪਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਕੋਈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਜਾਏ ॥
Pāvai mukaṯ na hor thai ko&shy;ī pucẖẖahu bibėkī&shy;ā jā&shy;ė.
He shall not find liberation anywhere else either; go and ask the wise ones about this.

ਅਨੇਕ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥
Anėk jūnī bẖaram āvai viṇ saṯgur mukaṯ na pā&shy;ė.
He shall wander through countless incarnations; without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.

ਫਿਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਲਾਗਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
Fir mukaṯ pā&shy;ė lāg cẖarṇī saṯgurū sabaḏ suṇā&shy;ė.
But liberation is attained, when one is attached to the feet of the True Guru, chanting the Word of the Shabad.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੨੨॥
Kahai Nānak vīcẖār ḏėkẖhu viṇ saṯgur mukaṯ na pā&shy;ė. ||22||
Says Nanak, contemplate this and see, that without the True Guru, there is no liberation. ||22||


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## svea00 (Mar 24, 2008)

Thank you kindly, namjap!

I see I was wrong sometimes, but nevermind I´ll do my best to get better.


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## spnadmin (Mar 24, 2008)

This shabad is today's most popular shabad. It has been posted with and without translation 6 times?:{-me!


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## Randip Singh (Mar 25, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> yet another case of ekmusafir getting away with insulting people with no action from mods.
> 
> why is this person not subject to the same rules of the forum as the rest of us?


 
Hi Jasleen,

Its been taken care of. Whether is music, caste, shabad translations or beef, there is no reason personal comments should be made. Alas I have tried for several months to stop him from making personal comments and he won't stop so only editing is available.

The issue as I have stated all along is not about meat, beef, chicken wings or fish fingers. I could not give a hott what people eat. This issue is about Egotism, and how we see our way of living, diet lifestyle somehow better than another.

Our Guru's travelled far and wide and met people of all sorts and types of people. They met sufi's , saint's, and mystics of all descriptions. The search for Truth was all pervading. Issues such as this are a distraction to this search. That is why Guru Nanak emphatically says "Fools wrangle over flesh". 

According to Bani if we are caple of being a rock in one lifetime and then the next a human being then how can people state that in terms of Karma an animal is somehow closer to us? Infact Bani describes people possesed with the 5 thieves as animals, yet we have this mishaprihesion still that animal's are innocent? 

I do not strive to be an animal but a human being and a Gurmukh at that. I do not wish to de-evolve. I do not wish to impose my belief's on others. If someone is a vegetarian and thinks that is good for them spiritually then I say goodluck. If someone is a meat eater and thinks that is good for them then I say good luck. History is littered with Saints, Mystics, Sufi's who were all Gurmukhs....some ate meat , and some didn't. I am in no position to judge any of these people. 

This is the Sikh religion. It is not the cow worship religion. It is not the pro meat religion. It is not the Vegan religion. It is not the Kentucky Fried Chicken religion. I always use the example of the Jain religion, which see's vegetarians as barbaric. For them to even to pull a leave off a plant is barbaric. Yet people see fit to judge a meat eater? Let us not fool ourselves. Read what Bani too, says about Jains.

From my limited understanding of the Sikh faith this entire issue is one of conscience. It will not affect you spiritually. What will affect you spiritually is thinking that other people should "do as you say", for me that is Egotism, and Egotism always results in the usual, which is disagreement, insults and lack of rational thinking (as has occured here).


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## Suntink (Nov 9, 2008)

Sherab said:


> Damdami Taksaal and AKJ maryada do not allow meat. keep in mind alot of those singhs who also drink and smoke follow sGPC. i know not all sikhs who drink and smoke too follow SGPC, and not all AKJers are as pure as they are supposed to be.
> 
> my advice, since in america, u do not know if animal meat was killed non hallal or non kosher (basically animal torture) do not eat it.
> 
> ...


 

The SGPC is the main body of the Sikhs, AKJ is not the main body for all Sikhs. The teachings of Gurmat do not say that one cannot eat meat. However it is the tradition of Jatts to not eat beef as they have cows or buffalos on their farms so they do not think it is respectful to eat beef. That is a non religous belief but a tradtion, it does not mean that Sikhs in general cannot eat beef. My opinion is that is completly wrong. :happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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