# How Do Animations Of Sikh Gurus/Heroes Hurt Religious Sentiments?



## spnadmin (Jul 30, 2010)

Recently, in fact only yesterday, a site on the web removed all of the digitized animations of a well-known series of stories about the life of Guru Nanak. 

(An image grab of a frame from one of the videos is attached.)

The day before protests were lodged against You Tube and the video user removed the animations. Complaints were lodged with SGPC asking that legal action be taken for "hurting the religious sentiments of Sikhs." On facebook, a large number of discussions via personal pages and wall-to-wall posting raged. 

At the bottom of the controversy was the belief that the digitized animations were not only disrespectful but they promoted idolatry. Idolatry is specifically forbidden in the Sikh Rehat Maryada.

But can that claim stand up? Do animations promote idolatry, any more than single images promote idolatry? Not to push the technicalities too much --- but --- an animation is nothing more than single images arranged in frames that are then timed to shift one to the other automatically, at a set speed.

So almost any image of our Gurus could be said to promote idolatry. Or hurt religious sentiments of Sikhs by promoting idolatry.

We have posted a poll so the membership can express its views. We would also like you to explain your views in this thread by posting comments as replies to the lead article. 

 *When you reply would you tell us how you define idolatry? What does that mean to you?*
* Are there any images of our Gurus that would not promote idolatry in your opinion? 
*
*Or do all images promote idolatry?*
* And last question: What is your understanding of the term in Indian law "hurting religious sentiments?"*
     I have uploaded some images just to give a sense of how many different ways in which we have already integrated images of the Gurus in our lives.


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## spnadmin (Jul 30, 2010)

*re: Do animations of Sikh Gurus promote idolatry?*

The kinds of images we find on the Internet

First row from left to right: 

1) Guru Arjan Dev and Bhai Gurdas from the Art of Punjab web site.
2) Image of Guru Nanak from a video presentation of Tu mera mata tu mera pita by Bhai Gopal Singh ji
3) Still frame from a video animation of the life of Sant Kabir ji

Second row from left to right:

4) Still frame from a video produced by sikhvideos, Guru Nanak Daata Bakshi Lai Mission
5) Image taken from an e-card animation remembering the shaheed of Guru Teg Bahadur ji
6) Cover from an e-book, Guru Nanak and Prayer, found on the Sikhnet site

Third row from left to right:

7) Fresco of Sikh Gurus from the wall of a Gurdwara in India
8  ) Page grab of a 2006 _claymation_ animated video on DVD of the life of Guru Nanak, by "_*Religions of the World: Our World Faiths Animated*_"


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## Hardip Singh (Jul 31, 2010)

*Re: Do animations of Sikh Gurus promote idolatry?*

What you are going to do with thousands of murals and paintings on walls of Harmandir Sahib oe at Akal Thakat. Those too will come under this catagory. Are these people going to destroy or remove those too. swordfight


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2010)

*Re: Do animations of Sikh Gurus promote idolatry?*



Hardip Singh said:


> What you are going to do with thousands of murals and paintings on walls of Harmandir Sahib or at Akal Thakat? Those too will come under this category. Are these people going to destroy or remove those too. swordfight



Hardip Singh ji

Forgive me but I was the one who asked the question because it has been the theme of the week on the Internet, it would seem. There was no other way to ask it. Without getting the question overly tangled up in words and phrases.  

But I agree with you.

There is another question and it might require a lawyer. Do we truly understand what the Indian Constitution means by  "attack religious sentiments" which I believe is the term it employs.


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## dalbirk (Jul 31, 2010)

*Re: Do animations of Sikh Gurus promote idolatry?*

I for one do really feel that the images posters & videos of Guru Sahibaans will promote idol worship as we have already seen most of the rural folks bowing before pictures who do not know an iota of Gurmat .


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## Prof Hardev Singh Virk (Jul 31, 2010)

I agree with views of Hardip Singh. Idolatory is bane of Sikh religion. U can find it in all Gurdwaras, including Golden Temple. Sikh pilgrims in Golden Temple worship Beri trees, Nishan Sahib, Hukamnamas written on display boards, Guru granth sahib and Monument to Shahid BAB DEEP SINGH with in the holy precincts. How can we avoid this Idolatory?
We behave neither like Muslims(non-idolators) nor Hindus(idolators) but our mode of WORSHIP resembles more like Hindus. We do not FOLLOW message of GURUs recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib but worship the Holy Book more like Hindu Idols. One can observe this ritual during early morning installation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in Golden Temple.
H.S.VIRK


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## Harry Rakhraj (Jul 31, 2010)

Harry Rakhraj said:


> Narayanjot Kaur said:
> 
> 
> > Recently, in fact only yesterday, a site on the web removed all of the digitized animations of a well-known series of stories about the life of Guru Nanak.
> ...


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## ik-jivan (Jul 31, 2010)

I think it would help to understand why idolatry is rejected. We recognize Ik Onkar – the One Universal Creator God, Beyond Birth and Self-Existent. To be all this, Ik Onkar’s whole state must be formless and timeless. Anything that is created and has form has the potential of being misused as an idol. Idolatry is *excessive reverence* toward the objects of faith, whether living *created beings* or images of *created beings*. 

The difference between idol worship and worshipping Ik Onkar by focussing attention on an object of faith is a matter of where we attribute reverence. Is it the object that we revere, or is the object a focal point for those who cannot comfortably comprehend the One Who Is All? Not everyone’s mind can contemplate or develop communion with an infinite, formless Creator Being and they need a small chunk. That’s why almost all religions ‘package’ God in some kind of form. And most of us still need gurus and prophets because we haven’t evolved consciousness enough to commune or even acknowledge that such is possible. However, science and philosophy haves made a lot of progress defining ‘collective consciousness’, so we are now affirming that we are of the One Mind.

‘How do I define idolatry? What does that mean to me?’
Idolatry is believing that *any created thing*, animate, inanimate or even animation *is greater than* any of the myriad *other created things*. All of THIS is Ik Onkar. . . you, me and everything else too. Recognizing that all is the One, love for all things should be equal. Ah, but let’s not confuse love with ‘like’ and ‘dislike’. 

We carry samsaras from one lifetime to the next, which give us unique preferences and attractions, but these *sentiments are not love*. These are the curricula of our unique life-lessons. Thinking that ones personal preferences are ‘right’ or ‘better’ than another person’s is simply ego play.

Love is the unconditional hope and will for the prosperity and wellbeing of God’s expression of creativity – life, in all its forms. We can enjoy what we like, because they are gifts from God, but we should also remember that these objects are gifts and not God in totality. 

We also need to accept what we don’t like about creation, because these things too were given as gifts by God. For a creature, like you or me, to even think that THAT THING doesn’t belong here suggests that we believe our wisdom and our intelligence are higher and greater than God’s.

’Are there any images of our Gurus that would not promote idolatry in your opinion?’
Well, if images and effigies of the goddess Kali have devotees, I would think any and all image of the Gurus could be used to promote idolatry too. 

‘Do all images promote idolatry?’
Promote? I would say, ‘increase the potential risk’ of idolatry. *Promotion of idolatry comes in the form of inculcated beliefs.* Someone has to think or repeatedly be told to think that the object is to be revered like God. Social conditioning (and those samsaras) dictates what we each revere, hold sacred and consider holy. 

As William Shakespear said, ‘*There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.*’ In my opinion, we should really be working to change our minds before we think to change our environment. When we set out on the path to eliminate risk, it become difficult to know where to draw the line. Should we cut down every tree and bury every rock to eliminate the risk of having Wickans worship them? Is there a chance that *Sikh children will see Dora the Explorer animations and start thinking that Dora is God*? 

The Guru Nanak animations would not form the basis for idolatry unless someone in the lives of Sikh children (or naïve adults for that matter) led them to believe that the image they see is God. That would be very, very difficult, given that the child would also see all kinds of different images coming from that same TV or computer screen. Nothing short of brainwashing would be needed to accomplish a conversion of belief of this proportion.

‘What is your understanding of the term in Indian law "hurting religious sentiments?’
I’m not familiar with this term. Yet the language makes me wonder if those complaining about the animations are experiencing *excessive reverence* toward Guru Nanak. 

Clearly the complaint was lodged due to *intolerance* toward others’ views. To require that all opinions and perspectives other than the ‘officially endorsed’ one be silenced seems *contrary to Sikh principles* to me.

On the other hand, if the animations featuring Guru Nanak or any other person were, in any way, misrepresentative of his character or deeds, there would be reason to take offence. *Defamation of character* is also *contrary to Sikh principles*.

So, what’s the system for arbitrating when two Sikh principles are used to counter and undermine the other? Should tolerance be upheld in this situation or should defamation be put down? Or are we going to allow the secular rule to stand, wherein *might is right and the loudest cry wins*?


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## seeker3k (Jul 31, 2010)

*Re: Do animations of Sikh Gurus promote idolatry?*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> The kinds of images we find on the Internet
> 
> First row from left to right:
> 
> ...




<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ch{censored}t=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!--  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 	{mso-style-parent:""; 	margin:0in; 	margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 	{size:8.5in 11.0in; 	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; 	mso-header-margin:.5in; 	mso-footer-margin:.5in; 	mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 	{page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ansi-language:#0400; 	mso-fareast-language:#0400; 	mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  In Sikhism there is no room to worship any Idol whether it is made from stone or mattel or painting on paper or canvas. Also there is no room in Sikhism to worship any living person or animal. I have been writing and talking about this for long time. But no one is interested to stop this. Or do any thing about it. An Idol is non living thing no matter what it is made of.
  Hurting the religious sentiment is very broad word and it used by most every one. Every one uses it for his own benefit.
  If the pictures and mettel are being sold in the compound of Harmander then how can any thing can be stopped? We all have to start with our self. I my self never had any Guru’s picture at my home nor I will have any.
  <o> </o>
  Seeker3k


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2010)

ik-jivaan ji

One small reply to a very small part of your comments. I have since researched the part of the Indian Constitution regarding "attacking religious sentiments." The term is "attacking" not "hurting" as has been used during this controversy on the web. And though i am not a lawyer, the claims made that the animations hurt/attack religious sentiments do not seem to hold water. You quote from Shakespeare is IMHO relevant., though you gave it in a slightly different sense.


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## rotrge (Jul 31, 2010)

*Re: Do animations of Sikh Gurus promote idolatry?*

A photo is just that a photo until you put more meaning to it. At that point it becomes Idolatry. Christians have hundreds of pictures, movies and the like depicting jesus nobody's crying about their Christian sentiments. In the end Waheguru is who we worship not our Gurus. Our Gurus were filled with the jot of Waheguru to teach us not to worship any but Waheguru. If someone wants to show the lives of our Gurus in a respectful manner go for it, otherwise how will we learn of them and their sacrifices.

:redturban:


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## Rupinder.Singh (Jul 31, 2010)

I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days ago. The gurudwara I visit does have Photographs of our Gurus in main hall and langar hall has photos of our shaheeds like bhai taru ji, Baba Deep Singh ji, photographs from 1984, and some other photographs.

Now there are a few perspectives to look at those pictures. 

First, go to each photo and matha tek
Second, accept these photos as our history, and remembrance of our history.

third, reject all these images(in all forms) as if promoting idolatory.

and many more other views and perceptions.

In my opinion, all the above perceptions will keep on haunting sikh principles unless and until we educate our sangat what sikhism is and what are the reasons behind sikh principles.

Education is the only key to eradicate misconceptions. if sikh sangat is aware of the right reason behind sikh principles, then we might have as many photos as we want as historical references, but we will never worship those.

Sometime , what hurts in photos is the presentation of an image which actually contradicts sikh principles. the artists who come up with these ideas, are not at large aware of sikh principles, so again the key lies in education.

It wont hurt, if under each photo, few lines be added as "Worshiping of pictures and idols is against sikh principles, this image is only for historical illustration"

Root cause of all these problems is lack of right education, only education can provide us reasons, and once those reasons are justified, no one can shake us.


Bhul Chuk Maaf ji

Rupinder Singh
mundahug


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## ik-jivan (Aug 1, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji,
Small is good. I honestly wish I could do more of it when I write – haha – but it seems there’s always a concept ‘blob’ and I can’t express it without a lot of words. _/\_

Maybe you could share your understanding and possibly online source references for this Indian Constitution (attacking religious sentiments) here. I would like to know a little more about it, if you could please. 

This complaint about the Guru Nanak animations seems to be IMO the misuse of law to retort to a sense of personal attack, rather than an attack against the Sikh religion. I wonder if the SGPC will hold the same view and let the animations stand, or whether there will be a formal definition created to clarify how/when animations featuring the Gurus or anything related to Sikhi are in breach of the Indian Constitution.

Interesting questions for our times . . .
ikonkaar


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## jasi (Aug 1, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

Narayanjot Kaur Ji.

My only comments are there is no room for idol worshiping or  performances of any rituals in Sikh's life style.

Before we preaches the world of our beliefs not to have idol worshiping or belief in non cast system ,we must practice what we preach.

Our main places of preachings which is run by these so called Granthies and leaders must display to the world our practical deeds by following what our Gurus left us to follow to spread their teachings around the world.

How could we can say in today's societies that we do not believe in cast system when all our Sikh communities are being further divided on cast system basis.This cancerous elements of cast system in our lives which is most demeaning the person in low cast with such a demoralizing system was eradicated by Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Gobindh Singh Ji  by creating Khalsa regardless of any cast system. 

Man is known for his deeds not by his birth .

Even Rama proved by eating BARES from BHILINI a low cast Bhagat of Rama that all of us with one class by birth and man is known by his deeds.This cast system was just a system created by MANU Ji to control the society.

*"JIN KE APNE GHAR SHEESHE KE HO ,WOH DUSRON PER PATHAR NAHI FANKETE. 

(the one who has their own houses made of glasses they do not through stones on other people houses.)*

Sikh philosophy is free from all rituals and cast system and we are completely drenched into by practicing what is not right.

There goes our new generations for understandings of our concept of Sikhism which we are showing by hypocritical preachings not to worship idols or pictures but when they see duality in our daily way of lives. we do Artie or pictures worshiping and perform all kinds of rituals and false beliefs. 

Some of our Sikh business communities start keeping all kinds Hindu idols in their business places  and lit all kinds of incenses to worships,parform arties rather than following Jap Ji Sahib and one God who is there for all..

All this mess has to be eradicated which our Gurus put end to most sicken disease of cast system in Hindu India where idols worships and cast system made our country under thousands years of slavery and cruelty towards so call low cast people beyond one's thinking.

Who is going to do that when our main stream preachers are not practicing what the preach. Day by day we are being further divided on basis of cast system. Our Gurudwars are being opened on cast system basis .

The cancer has started since 1925 and worsen to that extent that one day our new generation will make mockery of us of our duality in practice Sikhism what we preach.

Idol worship was existed in all over the world but eliminated long time ego with evolutions of the truths but we are still clinging on which put us over 2000 years of slavery by foreign countries,

To dominate the *EGO *Guru Sahibs have given us crystal clear GUIDANCE'S IN Gurbani to treat all human beings as one like your self created by* EK-Onkar.*



Wahe Guru Mat bakhshe.

Jaspi








Narayanjot Kaur said:


> ik-jivaan ji
> 
> One small reply to a very small part of your comments. I have since researched the part of the Indian Constitution regarding "attacking religious sentiments." The term is "attacking" not "hurting" as has been used during this controversy on the web. And though i am not a lawyer, the claims made that the animations hurt/attack religious sentiments do not seem to hold water. You quote from Shakespeare is IMHO relevant., though you gave it in a slightly different sense.


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2010)

jaspi ji

Thanks for pointing in an important direction.  Last night while pondering this subject of idols I found myself asking this question: What hurts Sikhism? As Seekr3k said earlier, the idea of "hurting religious sentiments" means as many different things as the people who are feeling hurt and can be self-serving. What hurts Sikhism?  That is the question that worries me. Caste is one of those things. There are others that deserve our energy, our concerted intelligence to resolve.


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## RaminderSingh (Aug 1, 2010)

sat sri akal

what is this youre talking of animations and pics of sikh gurus or heroes what steps SGPC has taken to stop publications in newspaper and calenders this all has to be stopped who are all hte pictures depicted what we all has been believing as gurusji's photo who gave them right to publish all this if a painter like sobha sing paints ant SGPC authorise and publish SGPC on it why? what authority SGPC is howcome they turn blind on all other facts and realities.

firstly they should place check on themselves then on people

animation is just an expression to let our offspring know our heroes and gurus

gurfateh


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## roopsidhu (Aug 1, 2010)

*SSA,*
*Idolatry can be defined as the religious worshiping of the idols. We can also say moorti-pooja. Gurbani teaches us not to do idol worship. As per gurbani the idols or statues cannot do any good for the humans. They are non-living objects. <?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


ਪਾਖਾਨਗਢਿਕੈਮੂਰਤਿਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਦੇਕੈਛਾਤੀਪਾਉ**॥**ਜੇਏਹਮੂਰਤਿਸਾਚੀਹੈਤਉਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇਖਾਉ**॥*
*Anyone claiming to be Sikh or follower of gurbani must not believe in idol worshiping. The idolatry should not be limited to statues or idols only; the worship of photos, portraits, stars, planets text or animals is also idolatry. Unfortunately we Sikhs sometime follow such rites in front of Jugo jug atal Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji also, which rites appears as a form of idolatry. Anyhow keeping a photo or mural at home or religious place is not idolatry but worshiping and praying in front of photos etc is idolatry.*
*Yes in majority of the cases the images of the gurus can promote idolatry. But we should not forget that the new generation is educated enough and is aware of the fact that images are for records, respect and history only. In general among the masses the images may help promote idolatry.*
*As per Indian Law the there is one section which states that: - whoever, with deliberate and malicious act, intended to outrage religious feelings of any class ( by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise) by insulting its religion or religious beliefs, can be poisoned or fined or both.*
*It is to be noted that law says, deliberate and malicious intension. Whenever such issues come up, we must think and conclude whether this act was deliberate or malicious intension or just an ignorant mistake. Before being too harsh, each and every case has to be handled based on the intensions of the persons involved.*
*As far as idol worship is concerned , its against gurmat and has to be confronted and eradicated from Sikhism.*
*Roopsidhu*


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## Harry Rakhraj (Aug 1, 2010)

H.S.VIRK said:


> I agree with views of Hardip Singh. Idolatory is bane of Sikh religion. U can find it in all Gurdwaras, including Golden Temple. Sikh pilgrims in Golden Temple worship Beri trees, Nishan Sahib, Hukamnamas written on display boards, Guru granth sahib and Monument to Shahid BAB DEEP SINGH with in the holy precincts. How can we avoid this Idolatory?
> We behave neither like Muslims(non-idolators) nor Hindus(idolators) but our mode of WORSHIP resembles more like Hindus. We do not FOLLOW message of GURUs recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib but worship the Holy Book more like Hindu Idols. One can observe this ritual during early morning installation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in Golden Temple.
> H.S.VIRK



HS Virk ji has raised a very pertinent point. It is, however, necessary to take a charitable view of the defaulters because they do it more out of ignorance than anything else. After all, Sikhism and Hinduism have a long common history. It is but natural that some legacy of customs and rituals gets carried forward, especially  by unlettered and simple folks. And hopefully, with better education and information these remnants from a common past will wither and die out, leaving Sikhi in its pristine glory.


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## otilia (Aug 1, 2010)

Dear Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

as a non born sikh, but truly admirer of your principles, I cannot understand why those fine art´s expressions would in any way promote idol´s worship. What we can suspect is that behind all this (and thinking of all other news I´ve been following),  there is a campaign against such fine principles that sikhism has ... The only thing I wonder is who is/are behind and what are they up to or looking..????  
Otilia


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## jasi (Aug 1, 2010)

SSS AKAL JI

Narayanjot Kaur Ji.

What puzzle me that we have been blessed with one of the most practical religion with unique faith acceptable to all in this modern world but still could not go far enough to make the world aware of this ocean of knowledge and guidance to achieve the realization of sublime existences.

Our self centered Granthies or leaders are very busy in their own politics in Guru Dwaras.There is more stess on preaching young Sikhs to Amrit shakana without proper preparations of an individuals.

Come to look at when doing Ardas when we read universal words of love which are  enshrined  in our daily ARDAS which we repeat all the time *"TERE BHANE SARBAT KA BHALLA "

It IS AAMAZING EXAMPLE OF OUR FAITH WHICH BEGS WELFARE FOR EVERY ONE REGARDLESS OF THEIR ORIGIN OR CAST*. 

Sikhism basic principals to follow in daily life :

<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" id="AutoNumber5" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>*Nam Japna*</td>                                     <td>*Remembering                                      Waheguru*</td>                                   </tr>                                   <tr>                                     <td>*Kirt Karni*</td>                                     <td>*Working                                      sincerely for livelihood*</td>                                   </tr>                                   <tr>                                     <td>*Wand Chhakna*</td>                                     <td>*Sharing of                                      resources*</td></tr></tbody></table>
The whole truth is very much simplified by our Guru Nanak Dev Ji :

"Truth is the highest virtue and higher than is truthful livings."

All rituals, idolatry and the rigidity of the caste system was twice eradicated by Guru nanak dev Ji and Guru Gobindh singh Ji by creating a pure Khalsa.

One want to be Sikh Then follow Guru Nanak  Dev Ji's philosphy.

One want to be  Singh (SANT SIPAHI) then follow Guru Gobindh Singh ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji's  philosophy.

jaspi






<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" id="AutoNumber5" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"><tbody></tbody></table>


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## Admin (Aug 1, 2010)

*The following responses i got in the email in response to the newsletter we sent... it is posted as it is...*




> Waheguru jee ka Khalsa  Waheguru jee  kee Fateh
> 
> Internet Forum is for healthy discussion but it is  up to an individual
> whether someone agrees or not because no one can force  one's
> ...



                         ******************************<wbr>********


> Dear S Gurmit Singh jio,
> 
> Waheguru ji ka Khalsa; Waheguru ji ki Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
 ******************************<wbr>********** 


> S Gurmit Singh has defined idolatry very well and also  about the paintings of Guru Nanak or other Gurus.
> 
> It is also true that  none of old or prevailing paintings of any Guru is true to their real images.
> It is very strange that real paintings of some famous persons happened  before Guru Nanak are available but none of Guru Nanak.
> ...


http://www.iuscanada.com/


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## roopsidhu (Aug 2, 2010)

SSA,
The main question in this thread was whether images of gurus will promote idolatry and what you understand of indian law for hurting religious sentiments?
Here we are discussing idolatry in general. In this respect its very sad to state that we sikhs are perfoming idolatry same like hindus. Gurbani teaches us against it but still we sikhs are more into it. bur we always try to cover it saying we are doing this just for respect which is not true. Starting from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, beri sahib, idols of shaheeds, sarovars, blood tilak of shashtras of gurus and almost everything we do reflects towards idolatry which is stricktly prohibited in gurmat. When non-sikhs do idolatry, we sikhs condemn it. When we sikhs perform idolatry we name it as custumary, offering respect, mariyada and ignorance etc.
The fact is that the anti-sikh forces are trying their best to popularize idolatry and other hindu customs to hinder the progress of sikhism. They do not like us sikhs to follow the true teachings of gurbani and get enlightened. Its a anti-sikh propoganda and sikh leaders are just ignoring it for their personal gains.
May god bless us with understanding the gurbani and living our lives accordingly.
Roopsidhu


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2010)

There seems to be fear or buried assumption that a picture/statue/animation will lead to idolatry. Almost automatically and without awareness on the part of the one looking at the image. That is where I am truly struggling, because i have no desire to hang a picture of any Guru in my home, nor do I purchase posters, calendars, postcards with pictures of the Gurus on them. At the same time, a picture of Guru Nanak or Guru Arjan Dev in a video of a Gurbani Kirtan does not move me to want to worship the video. Take a look at Post 2 in the thread. Many of the examples of images have never raised an eyebrow. Yet the animations have raised a furor. *That led in the following days to injunctions against all images of our Gurus. *

A fear runs through the discussion that Sikhs will revert to Hindu beliefs and practices (granted some Sikhs have never left them in the past). I find it remarkable that the Internet outrage was about the "animations" and images, but there was no outrage against the content of the stories. When I watched the videos, the content was in places reminiscent of superstitious thinking. That should have disturbed someone. It did not.

 But the Sikh Rehat Maryada is always extremely clear when it forbids a practice, giving the context from Hindu or Muslim worship -- with the objective of clarifying why Sikhs are neither Hindu nor Muslim. The Sikh Rehat Maryada is also extremely clear in forbidding idolatry. Yet *nowhere have I found that the SRM forbids images.* It requires as follows, 

Living in Consonance with Guru’s Tenets
Article XVI 

A Sikh’s living, earning livelihood,  thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru’s tenets. The Guru’s tenets  are: 

(a) Worship should be rendered only to the  One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess. 
(b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru  Granth and the ten Gurus word alone as saviors and holy objects of veneration.
(c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence  of one light and one single entity.

Why do we jump ahead and assume that creating an image/animation will result in using the image as an object of veneration?  Does looking at an image equal idolatry? Is the caution against Hindu practices? Is a Muslim practice the cure?

Next post lists what is forbidden and why. Rituals and practices are forbidden. Idolatry is forbidden. Are we free to add to the SRM and progress onward to additional taboos based on our fears?


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2010)

Forbidden,



(d) Not believing in cast or descent,  untouched ability, magic, spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and  occasions, influence of start, horoscopic dispositions, shradh (ritual serving  of food to priests for the salvation of ancestors on appointed days as per the  lunar calendar), ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving of food to priests -  Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of the death of an ancestor), pind  (offering of funeral barley cakes to the deceased’s relatives), patal (ritual  donation of food in the belief that that would satisfy the hunger of the  departed soul), diva (the ceremony of keeping an oil lamp lit for 360 days after  the death, in the belief that that lights the path of the deceased), ritual  funeral acts, hom (lighting of ritual fire and pouring intermittently clarified  butter, food grains etc. into it for propitiating gods for the fulfillment of a  purpose) jag (religious ceremony involving presentation of oblations), tarpan  (libation), sikha-sut (keeping a tuft of hair on the head and wearing thread),  bhadan (shaving of head on the death of a parent), fasting on new or full moon  or other days, wearing of frontal marks on the forehead, wearing thread, wearing  of a necklace of the pieces of tulsi stalk [A plant with medicinal properties],  veneration of any graves, of monuments erected to honour the memory of a  deceased person or of cremation sites, idolatry and such like superstitious  observances. [Most, though not all rituals and ritual or religious observances  listed in this clause are Hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the  old rituals and practices, continued to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs  even after their conversion from their old to the new faith and a large bulk of  the Sikh novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the  strangle-hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus secular and religious life which  the Brahmin priest managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious  fold, by his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromise. That the  Sikh novitiates include a sizable number of Muslims is shown by inclusion in  this clause of the taboos as to the sanctity of graves, shirni, etc.] [

Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any  place other than the Guru’s place - such, for instance, as sacred spots or  places of pilgrimage of other faiths. 

Not believing in or according any  authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants,  oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet  loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the  Shastras, the Gayatri (Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun), the Gita, the  Quran, the Bible, etc.. However, the study of the books of other faiths for  general self-education is admissible.


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## mukul singh (Aug 2, 2010)

Take an example from Ramayan,where anyone is free to become Shri.Ram now & few fools make joke them,after any human or animations which will  play as anygod will become part of joke someday day because there is no shortage of fools who make fun of it. 
I am also an 3d animator & a sikh. I thought about making an 3d movie based on our sakhi, however thinking about later consequences regarding making fun of things, i dropped the idea.
Any animation or individual becoming God should not be promoted.
GOD is already Here & we all know him by ' Shri Guru Granth Sahib JI '

Gursikh
Mukul Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2010)

mukul singh said:


> Take an example from Ramayan,where anyone is free to become Shri.Ram now & few fools make joke them,after any human or animations which will  play as anygod will become part of joke someday day because there is no shortage of fools who make fun of it.
> I am also an 3d animator & a sikh. I thought about making an 3d movie based on our sakhi, however thinking about later consequences regarding making fun of things, i dropped the idea.
> Any animation or individual becoming God should not be promoted.
> GOD is already Here & we all know him by ' Shri Guru Granth Sahib JI '
> ...



I agree God is already here. But are you now saying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is God - that a book has become a God? Not an animation but a book?


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 2, 2010)

There is a misconception prevalent among Sikhs that bowing to representations of something like images and statues is idol worship. ... and that bowing down is some kind of worship.

As soon as someone says its OK to bow down in a Hindu Temple. He is automatically an idol worshipper, anti-Sikh and should be made to apologize.

Indians bow down to respect. Its like saying I am not "greater than thou" (something many Sikhs have forgotten).

When I went to India, I asked my Grandma why she folded her hands and did a subtle bow gesture everytime she saw a painting of Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji around the house.
You know what she said to me. She said I while I am busy doing house work (for most of the day), by chance I see the picture, for me its a chance to remember God and remember our history.


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## roopsidhu (Aug 2, 2010)

SSA,
yes Narayanjot Kaur ji, you are right, You have noted the same point from Mukul singh ji's post which I have noted also. Many of us are speaking against idolatry but when it comes to SGGSji or other sikhi monuments, then we close our eyes and never try to see that what we are doing, the way we react and the deeds we do are also idolatry.  Yes you are right,Dhan Dhan Sri guru granth sahib ji is not God either. I think the problem is in our preaching system. An awareness drive aboute real sikhi ways is the need of the hour. SPN and various other websites are doing very good job and are playing a vital role in awarenedd drive. May god bless you all with more means to proceed further.
Roopsidhu


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## Jasvinder singh lota (Aug 2, 2010)

waheguruji ka khalsa waheguruji ki fateh,there can be nothing more  narrow minded than calling animations of our gurus as idolatory,if you  want sikhi to be taught even to our own children there can be nothing  better than showing such animated history of our great gurus and sikhs  to our young generation and the best way to teach sikhi and influence  young minds ,those calling it idolatory may be doing so with some vested  interest and definitely not a bit in the interest of sikhs. it is  nothing short of foolishness.

Jasvinder Singh Lota


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2010)

roopsidhu ji

Your concern about the way we educate is where my thinking is running as well. Guru Nanak's shabads never condemned idolaters. Instead he made it his lifetime mission to teach a different way, a better way, a way that would fill mind and heart with so much love of Naam that there would be no room left for idolatry. He taught all the peoples he could reach this lesson. We have a God who is without hatred and without animosity. It makes sense to me then that teaching with love and concern is the way. There will always be people who must hang onto objects for emotional reasons. If there were no animations, there would be something else, some other object would take its place. If we teach rather than ban, do we not set a better example of spiritual purity?


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## ugsbay (Aug 2, 2010)

SSA.
I personaly thought those animations was a excellent way to educate our toddlers, i dont realy know where the idoltry comes into it but maybe it is each individuals perception. Just my opinion appologies if i am wrong.


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## ik-jivan (Aug 2, 2010)

So there, we've finally hit on it - we need a medium for the message. The objects of faith are that medium, but to manage the message - ensuring that it is accurate - we are now thinking we need to control the medium.

I suppose it is true that little statues of Guru Nanak ji could be sold along side the plastic ones of the Buddha. So be it. Will Sikhs buy them? Do Sikhs need little forms to hold onto while they do Simran or read Gurbani in devotion to the Formless One? Who would buy a little ‘Sikh Buddha’?

I giggle thinking about the ‘idolatry’ among my neighbours. Here you can find a Hindu burning incense to an image of Guru Nanak ji in her shop. You can find a Sikh wearing a kara and sacred threads from his recent visit to shrines to Mahadeva and Hanuman. You can find Kirtan playing and Guru Nanak ji images in another shop, where the Sikh owners are very concerned about caste associations and couldn’t muster even a smile for a strange face.

There is a lot of Hinduism in Sikhi . . . or perhaps it is better said that there are a lot of Hindus in Sikhi. Education would solve the problem. Gurbani, Katha, Sakhi, Vichar . . . we have all the tools, so let’s each be sure to help those struggling to learn. I have compiled all the Punjabi-English translation audios of the Nitnem, Sukhmani Sahib, Simran and Kirtans and have begun making copies for friends who ask for them. Despite appearances, the ‘idol worshipping Sikhs’ do understand Ik Onkar, but it would seem the tendencies toward Hinduism are hard-to-break habits. BTW: The Hindus I know also understand Ik Onkar.

Remembering that Sikhi is an evolution out of Hinduism, we should also understand that Guru Nanak Dev ji was a Hindu with a very highly evolved consciousness, capable of receiving the Gurbani. None of us are that evolved, but He left us with written instruction for becoming more enlightened. We are all under the tutelage of Waheguru in one big class. Yet, each religion is a distinct study, designed for the students’ stage of learning. 

Perhaps the idolatry problem has arisen because Hindus felt some kind of pressure to convert? What are your thoughts? 

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## Rupinder.Singh (Aug 2, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> roopsidhu ji
> 
> Your concern about the way we educate is where my thinking is running as well. Guru Nanak's shabads never condemned idolaters. Instead he made it his lifetime mission to teach a different way, a better way, a way that would fill mind and heart with so much love of Naam that there would be no room left for idolatry. He taught all the peoples he could reach this lesson. We have a God who is without hatred and without animosity. It makes sense to me then that teaching with love and concern is the way. There will always be people who must hang onto objects for emotional reasons. If there were no animations, there would be something else, some other object would take its place. If we teach rather than ban, do we not set a better example of spiritual purity?




Dear Narayanjot Kaur Ji

A very nice thought. You have highlighted the pitfall, which we all(most of the times) miss to notice all the time. 

Our Gurus, never condemned any religion. But they condemned, the false practices coined by leaders of those religions. 

Above is the approach we need to follow when educating Sangat. 

Take an example of my village Gurudwara, We have hindu and Sikh sangat in the village and they all visit Gurudwara

Now if a granthi says Sikhs are not supposed to worship IDOLs coz it is hindu practice..IMO it will be wrong, it will convey wrong message to our Hindu brothers/sisters. and it is open violation of sikh principle of "universal brotherhood"

But rather if Granthi simply explains that Sikhism is all about realizing omnipresence  of  GOD. And just assuming GOD lives in certain places, pictures, idols or other objects, and thus worshiping those objects/places would be a false ritual and would undermine the omnipresence of GOD. That is why Such practices and Rituals are not promoted and performed in Gurmat. ( ...there is no need to relate it to any other religion...)

This explanation will raise many other questions in aspiring minds, but then asking questions is the way to eliminate duality. And elimination of Duality is what SGGS talks about..imo.


Rest on your thoughts
mundahug


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## mukul singh (Aug 3, 2010)

Rupinder.Singh said:


> Dear Narayanjot Kaur Ji
> 
> A very nice thought. You have highlighted the pitfall, which we all(most of the times) miss to notice all the time.
> 
> ...


 

SatSangat Ji,

Truly said however, the facts cannot be taken lightly that animation may play a vital role in knowledge but will harm more. We connot stop any object from being displayed, its how we react on it.

Think some funny stuff came on our guru & is spread accross, how much you & i are willing to stop it.when anything goes excess the importance comes down, that is why there are certain rules to maintain the respect & interest of people.

Everyone cannot think the same way we do.its not about omnipresence of god,its about allowance which may further bring us issues. 

Ask me i am an animator, i have made monalisa photo into a cartoon, my office guys animations in funny manner.

I am a sikh & understand the importance but the people who don't will not be stoppable if they made this as a trend, 

The jokes are on santa banta & sardaars are already into trend ,if they become once on waheguru ji then think it will burn us inside out.

I hope i am able to communicate.

Sat Shri Akal
Mukul Singh


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## mukul singh (Aug 3, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I agree God is already here. But are you now saying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is God - that a book has become a God? Not an animation but a book?


 

 Sat Shr Akal Ji,

Narayanjot Kaur JI i am sorry to say but it  is said by Guru Gobing Singh Ji, that I am present in Granth Sahib JI.

We all respect it worship it not for being just a book.

If believe is what ur talking about then,close you eyes take a deep breath don't think anything & exhale it slowly, the comfort you find it for that second is GOD.

Guru Granth Sahib JI is direction to right path which i believe we don't follw much (myself).

The debate here is on animation which i believe should not be opted as an option for education on religon or may be it should stick to registered animators to some organisation.

Gursikh
Mukul Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2010)

mulkul singh ji

You if you are Khalsa are present as Khalsa not as God. Guru Gobind Singh said to his khalsa you are my guru (on earth) and that does not take the place of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the final guru. The meaning of Dasam Pita is the subject of another thread, Claiming yourself to be God does not make it so, and really is a diversion from the thread topic.

Further digressions will be deleted. Thanks.


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## mukul singh (Aug 4, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> mulkul singh ji
> 
> You if you are Khalsa are present as Khalsa not as God. Guru Gobind Singh said to his khalsa you are my guru (on earth) and that does not take the place of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the final guru. The meaning of Dasam Pita is the subject of another thread, Claiming yourself to be God does not make it so, and really is a diversion from the thread topic.
> 
> Further digressions will be deleted. Thanks.


 

narayanjot Kaur Ji

I didn't at all meant that i am god, i can't be, probably i was not able to communicate well through my words, if i hurt any sentiment of yours or anybody i am extremely sorry.

Mukul Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 4, 2010)

mukul singh ji

You did not hurt my sentiments. It is really hard to offend me or hurt my religious sentiments so don't worry about it. I have a thick skin. And actually I was more worried about you than anythings.


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## anilbhardwaj (Aug 18, 2010)

Gur fateh,
               We  have to be very careful and attentive against those  actions who put  animations on sites. It should be declare as crime to interfere against the sentiments of ones religion, specially sikh religion. our religion is facing various kind of internal and external attacks. so prepare yourself and others to follow Gurmat.
WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
Panth da  dass
Anil Bhardwaj


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## ik-jivan (Aug 18, 2010)

Somewhere in this thread, I am sure Aman Singh posted a few letters from different people questioned about this matter. One response indicated concern about statues of the Gurus being made and sold along side plastic Buddha forms. I questioned ‘Who would buy them? Surely NOT Sikhs.’

I guess I was wrong. I’m not sure if you have seen the *Power of Khalsa* video (YouTube- power of khalsa). It’s a great performance of Gatka. But watch to the end. . . the performers present the judges with Guru statues.

I really don’t know what to think now. I’m sure that neither party will use these statues as idols, but Sikhs supporting the manufacture through purchase of them is not something I expected.


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## harsimiritkaur (Aug 23, 2010)

Guru Nanak preached against the mala in Shlok Seheskriti.  Gal mala tilak lelatang. Pg 1353

Why do we tolerate pictures of Guru Nanak holding a mala prayer beeds when he was against it?

Why are we copying the Hindus and the Catholic Church where people bow down and pray to saints?

Why do all the pictures of the Gurus wear Naamdhari turbans?

Some of the earliest paintings of the Gurus were done by Hindus, beautiful paintings, very colorful.  I can understand it is their understanding of how the Gurus appeared.  Guru pictures are only for reminding us about the Gurus and what they taught, not for bowing to or burning incense in front of.  There should never be a picture of a human form behind the palkee so as not to commit moorit puuja.


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## seeker3k (Aug 23, 2010)

harsimiritkaur said:


> Guru Nanak preached against the mala in Shlok Seheskriti. Gal mala tilak lelatang. Pg 1353
> 
> Why do we tolerate pictures of Guru Nanak holding a mala prayer beeds when he was against it?
> 
> ...


 

Dear harsimitkaur ji,
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
It is lost cause trying to stop worshiping fake pictures of all the guru’s. Now you can buy a brass idol of Guru Nanak at the Harmander.  Where it is going to stop I have no idea. As far as I know there are no real pictures of any Guru. You can find so many tails that this is true or that one is true picture. But in reality no picture is real.
<o> </o>
All of us here in SPN should keep any picture of any Guru or baba Deep Sing or Banda Bahadar. It is insult to the gurus to have their picture. SGPC should put the ban on printing any picture of Gurus. Even in Sikh museum at Harmander there are pictures of Gurus.
<o> </o>
Here is some thing we can be proud of our Sikh solders. It is in the time of English raaj
<o> </o>
 http://sikhchic.com/history/the_saga_of_saragarhi


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## ugsbay (Aug 23, 2010)

Seeker3k Ji thankyou for this excellent informative link, awesome courage and bravery. swordfight


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## spnadmin (Aug 23, 2010)

seekr3k ji

Do you want this article posted separately under Sikh History? It will take only a few minutes. I don't want to post it if you feel otherwise.


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## seeker3k (Aug 23, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> seekr3k ji
> 
> Do you want this article posted separately under Sikh History? It will take only a few minutes. I don't want to post it if you feel otherwise.


 

I just wanted to share it with brothers and sisters. I believe it was exlent artical. I dont know every thing about where these post are best suited. I leave it up to you. Longs it is read by many it will be ok where ever you think it should be.

 Thanks for the avtar.

seeker3k


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## jasi (Aug 24, 2010)

SS AKAL JI

As my basic concern about every thing being practice in daily life by Sikhs at large at homes or worshiping places with all kinds of hypocrisies , the day is not very far to realize that how much damages we have caused to Guru Nanak preachings and philosophy.

All concerns mentioned by 

 <!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) -->*harsimiritkaur* is one of the example of many who are pouring out their concerns what we preach and what we do in daily lives to show the world our Sikhism.Our leaders in SPGC must take U turn to apply and practice Guru Nanak 's philosophy and teachings by denouncing any one with last names which identify one's cast back ground should be considered breaching the ethics of Sikhism. 

Cast system was #1 cancer which gave  so much pains to millions of so called low cast people which is beyond any expressions and still being practices in India on large scale basis . 

First thing Guru Nanak pioneered the philosophy to denounced cast system and replace the respect of female genders by comparing that the same women who gives birth to the kings and prophets should be respected like any one else.

Cast system was direct cause of disunity among Indian to make ruled by Muslims invaders and others over 2000 years under  foreign rulers. Now India has to pass a law for such people who still practice castism will be sent to jail by law.

What a wonderful world would be  if we  demonstrate to 6 billions of people  Guru Nanak's revelations of that we are all are one and come from one light regardless of any organized religions or cast 


Guru Gobindh Singh used this tool of oneness philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev to create  a powerful  Khalsa  force by giving  new name to be called SINGH regardless of their cast or origins basis.It produced such a history of unity which world is witness to our struggle against tyranny of Muguls.

One can clearly see today's world with all kinds of tails behinds each Sikh names next Singh and still we claim to have a faith in Sikhism. 

All these rituals and belief in cast system are being practiced from grass roots of our births and then teach our children you are a Sikh ,he is Hindu ,he is Muslim and he is this that by creating different walls .

Today children are reacting to our self made identity to be this cast or that cast is back firing by many growing generations in modern world.We forgot all together what is the foundations of the Sikh faith which was created by Guru Nanak that all  human beings are the same.

Hindus society has been always *envied *our faith to disblief in cast system.

But we all practices the followings;

-cast system 

-rituals

-idol worshiping with burning incenses ( THERE IS NOTHING LEFT WHAT WE DO NOT
 PRACTICE LIKE HINDUS OR OTHER RITUALS)

-Worshiping  idols and all kinds of other gods pictures in bushiness places run by Sikhs
  Bowing their heads and making Artie's status or pictures by considering one of the god
  will help them to succeed in their business in front of their own children who got sick in
  their minds by watching this most hypocritical practices by their own mother and
  father give a new birth to resentments of our Sikhism preachings.

-Fights among Sikhs in many Guru Dawaras became so Commons in every city to seek
 more role to be president or CHOUDRIES in Guru Dawara divided on cast bases.

-One of the real universal faith blessed us by Guru Nanak Dev Ji could hardly passed
 Punjab borders which is meant not only for Sikhs but for the whole world humanity by
 denouncing all other faiths to  that we all come from one light and there is no Hindu or
 Muslim.
- Our main stream of organizations SPGC has failed to demonstrate the real preaching
  and practices,awareness to the world  through modern media in all languages to
  convey Guru Nanak Dev's messages.

-All the priests must have at last college degree or in GIANI to display their unbiased   
 preaching to all.

All we can do and watch our leaders in their orthodox thinking only but not applying what we are blessed in GUR GRANTH SAHIB JI  to practice in our daily lives.

The results are becoming more visible in every walks of life where there is least respect for each others .

Love for kith and kins or others are e being evaporated at the fastest pace.

Jaspi


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