# Why Do People Confuse Good And Bad Luck, With The Actions Of God?



## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2018)

Why do people confuse good and bad luck, with the actions of God?

surely your path is determined by your actions, and sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't, what is luck?


luck
lʌk/
_noun_

1.
success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.

So would it be fair to say that changing the above to

success or failure apparently brought by God rather than through one's own actions.

would represent a majority thinking within Sikhism?


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## Ishna (Jul 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Why do people confuse good and bad luck, with the actions of God?
> 
> surely your path is determined by your actions, and sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't, what is luck?
> 
> ...



For your last question, yes, I think it does represent a majority thinking within Sikhi.  If you do ardaas before your exam, maybe God will help you or let you pass the exam.  If you do adraas, maybe God will help you succeed in wooing the man.  If you do adraas, maybe God will help you succeed in your career and you'll get that big house and luxury Land Rover.  In my opinion, this is faulty thinking though.

What even is this "luck" when everything is Hukam?  To regard anything as the outcome of good luck or bad luck, or success or failure, is to miss the bigger picture.  At best, talk of luck is a shorthand for saying "It did (or did not) work out as I had hoped."

We find in the handbook of the Greek philosopher Epictetus this comment, which I think is relevant: "8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well."  When we bring our own will into alignment with God's will, then everything happens just as it should.

Regarding our own actions, I think we can do everything in our power to achieve a certain outcome, but the actual achieving of it is up to hukam.  Just my thoughts.


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 15, 2018)

There is no good luck or bad luck, there is only our perception of the unfolding events as being fortunate or unfortunate. This perception depends on our desires and expectations and our belief that things only qualify as "good" when they align with our will. If everything is hukum then belief in luck means we only respect God's will when it matches ours. Likewise when one is only pleased when their ardaas/prayers are answered. In order to fully respect Divine hukum one must desire nothing, expect nothing and accept all outcomes as what must occur.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 15, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> here is no good luck or bad luck,



maybe, but from where I am sitting, luck seems to play a big part in life, both good and bad.



RicktheSikh said:


> there is only our perception of the unfolding events as being fortunate or unfortunate



A man who has a heart attack very close to a major heart hospital could be seen as fortunate, perception does not come into it



RicktheSikh said:


> This perception depends on our desires and expectations and our belief that things only qualify as "good" when they align with our will.



Depending on who you are, 'our will' still tends to align with the will and desires of society, however, certain situations, like health issues, are above desires and expectations, matters of life and death can be viewed differently to material desires. 



RicktheSikh said:


> If everything is hukum then belief in luck means we only respect God's will when it matches ours.


Can you define Hukam as you have used it in the above?

In order to fully respect Divine hukum one must desire nothing, expect nothing and accept all outcomes as what must occur.

hmmmm easier to do as a single man, when you only have yourself to worry about, harder to do if you have loved ones in your life, I am curious, do you desire nothing, expect nothing and accept all outcomes as what must occur?


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## Ishna (Jul 15, 2018)

Gurbani mentions '(mis)fortune' quite a bit - 288 times in English, actually.  Perhaps in Sikhi there is such a thing as luck.

Ang 1417
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਹੁ ਚਿਤਵਦੇ ਬਹੁ ਆਸਾ ਲੋਭੁ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
Mā▫i▫ā moh baho cẖiṯvaḏe baho āsā lobẖ vikār. 
Mortals give great thought to Maya and emotional attachment; they harbor great hopes, in greed and corruption. 

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਮਰਿ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਖਿਨ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
Manmukẖ asthir nā thī▫ai mar binas jā▫e kẖin vār. 
The self-willed manmukhs do not become steady and stable; they die and are gone in an instant. 

ਵਡ ਭਾਗੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤਜੈ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
vad bẖāg hovai saṯgur milai ha▫umai ṯajai vikār. 
Only those who are blessed with *great good fortune* meet the True Guru, and leave behind their egotism and corruption. 

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਪਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥੩੮॥ 
Har nāmā jap sukẖ pā▫i▫ā jan Nānak sabaḏ vīcẖār. ||38|| 
Chanting the Name of the Lord, they find peace; servant Nanak contemplates the Word of the Shabad. ||38||​Ang 711
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥ 
Rāg todī mėhlā 4 gẖar 1. 
Raag Todee, Chau-Padas, Fourth Mehl, First House: 

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ 
Har bin rėh na sakai man merā. 
Without the Lord, my mind cannot survive. 

ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਭਵਜਲਿ ਫੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Mere parīṯam parān har parabẖ gur mele bahur na bẖavjal ferā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
If the Guru unites me with my Beloved Lord God, my breath of life, then I shall not have to face the wheel of reincarnation again in the terrifying world-ocean. ||1||Pause|| 

ਮੇਰੈ ਹੀਅਰੈ ਲੋਚ ਲਗੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹੇਰਾ ॥ 
Merai hī▫arai locẖ lagī parabẖ kerī har nainhu har parabẖ herā. 
My heart is gripped by a yearning for my Lord God, and with my eyes, I behold my Lord God. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦਇਆਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਧਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ 
Saṯgur ḏa▫i▫āl har nām driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā har pāḏẖar har parabẖ kerā. ||1|| 
The merciful True Guru has implanted the Name of the Lord within me; this is the Path leading to my Lord God. ||1|| 

ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ 
Har rangī har nām parabẖ pā▫i▫ā har govinḏ har parabẖ kerā. 
Through the Lord's Love, I have found the Naam, the Name of my Lord God, the Lord of the Universe, the Lord my God. 

ਹਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥੨॥ 
Har hirḏai man ṯan mīṯẖā lāgā mukẖ masṯak bẖāg cẖangerā. ||2|| 
The Lord seems so very sweet to my heart, mind and body; upon my face, upon my forehead, my good destiny is inscribed. ||2|| 

ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਹਰਿ ਵਿਸਰਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥ 
Lobẖ vikār jinā man lāgā har visri▫ā purakẖ cẖangerā. 
Those whose minds are attached to greed and corruption forget the Lord, the good Lord God. 

ਓਇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੂੜ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਮੰਦੇਰਾ ॥੩॥ 
O▫e manmukẖ mūṛ agi▫ānī kahī▫ahi ṯin masṯak bẖāg manḏerā. ||3|| 
Those self-willed manmukhs are called foolish and ignorant; *misfortune and bad destiny* are written on their foreheads. ||3||​


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> maybe, but from where I am sitting, luck seems to play a big part in life, both good and bad.
> 
> A man who has a heart attack very close to a major heart hospital could be seen as fortunate, perception does not come into it


Is this good luck or a blessing from the Divine? Depends on your perspective. Perspective also comes into play concerning your view of the man. Of course he thinks having a heart attack near a hospital is a good thing, but what if he's an all-around cruel, sadistic person who will live on to hurt more people? Then his "good luck" could be a "bad" thing according to perspective.



Harry Haller said:


> Depending on who you are, 'our will' still tends to align with the will and desires of society, however, certain situations, like health issues, are above desires and expectations, matters of life and death can be viewed differently to material desires.


The desire to continue living, the expectation of outliving ones parents, etc. Everything we judge as good or bad is judged against how we would like things to go or how we expect them to go



Harry Haller said:


> Can you define Hukam as you have used it in the above?


Destiny, part of the Grand Plan, God's will.



Harry Haller said:


> hmmmm easier to do as a single man, when you only have yourself to worry about, harder to do if you have loved ones in your life, I am curious, do you desire nothing, expect nothing and accept all outcomes as what must occur?


I would say that I'm not quite there yet but working on it. I don't desire riches but I do desire to eat every day. I don't expect everything in my life to work out perfectly but I do expect a paycheck on payday when I've done my work. I haven't experienced any tragedies since taking on my "acceptance of everything" mindset so i can't say for sure if I would be able to accept ALL outcomes. What I have been working on is sublimating my desires and limiting my disappointment and moving forward when my expectations are not met. I don't hold myself up as the model of how anyone else should be.

And Ishna, I guess receiving the glance of Grace is good fortune in that it isn't earned but I like to think of it as a gift rather than random chance that worked out in one's favor.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 15, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> I would say that I'm not quite there yet but working on it. I don't desire riches but I do desire to eat every day. I don't expect everything in my life to work out perfectly but I do expect a paycheck on payday when I've done my work. I haven't experienced any tragedies since taking on my "acceptance of everything" mindset so i can't say for sure if I would be able to accept ALL outcomes. What I have been working on is sublimating my desires and limiting my disappointment and moving forward when my expectations are not met. I don't hold myself up as the model of how anyone else should be.



I think your playing a dangerous game myself, the state you are heading for is not that different to a zombie state, which is not what I believe was the state that the Gurus wished us to reach, I have spent time in this state myself, nothing new is learned, nothing new is experienced, no growing takes place and in fact the whole meaning of life is not to be affected by life, in short, you become an ascetic. 

Is life about experiencing life and learning from it, or from rejecting all emotions, desires, lusts, and locking yourself in a mental box so it does not affect you? I have to confess that allowing life and its experiences to affect me has driven me quite quite mad, so I am forced to travel the same path at times to preserve my sanity, but to me, it just looks like a void from the inside, like nothing, from this place, we are not winning the game, true, we are not losing the game either, but the truth is, we are not playing the game, and we are here on this earth for so many years to play the game, not reject it. 

in my humble opinion


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## Ishna (Jul 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I think your playing a dangerous game myself, the state you are heading for is not that different to a zombie state, which is not what I believe was the state that the Gurus wished us to reach, I have spent time in this state myself, nothing new is learned, nothing new is experienced, no growing takes place and in fact the whole meaning of life is not to be affected by life, in short, you become an ascetic.
> 
> Is life about experiencing life and learning from it, or from rejecting all emotions, desires, lusts, and locking yourself in a mental box so it does not affect you? I have to confess that allowing life and its experiences to affect me has driven me quite quite mad, so I am forced to travel the same path at times to preserve my sanity, but to me, it just looks like a void from the inside, like nothing, from this place, we are not winning the game, true, we are not losing the game either, but the truth is, we are not playing the game, and we are here on this earth for so many years to play the game, not reject it.
> 
> in my humble opinion



I have thoughts on this but it feels off topic.  Do you want me to share them?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2018)

Ishna said:


> I have thoughts on this but it feels off topic.  Do you want me to share them?


well as you know I am a stickler for protocol, but in this case, I would appreciate you sharing them , yes


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 16, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I think your playing a dangerous game myself, the state you are heading for is not that different to a zombie state, which is not what I believe was the state that the Gurus wished us to reach, I have spent time in this state myself, nothing new is learned, nothing new is experienced, no growing takes place and in fact the whole meaning of life is not to be affected by life, in short, you become an ascetic.
> 
> Is life about experiencing life and learning from it, or from rejecting all emotions, desires, lusts, and locking yourself in a mental box so it does not affect you? I have to confess that allowing life and its experiences to affect me has driven me quite quite mad, so I am forced to travel the same path at times to preserve my sanity, but to me, it just looks like a void from the inside, like nothing, from this place, we are not winning the game, true, we are not losing the game either, but the truth is, we are not playing the game, and we are here on this earth for so many years to play the game, not reject it.
> 
> in my humble opinion



I hear what you're saying.  I'll stop short of asceticism though. I have responsibilities. I can't run off into the woods and abandon my family for the sake of having constant spiritual experiences. I'm aiming for renunciate householder. My goal is to be the man in this bani:

SGGSJ Page 633
Sorat'h, Ninth Mehl:

ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
जो नरु दुख मै दुखु नही मानै ॥
Jo nar ḏukẖ mai ḏukẖ nahī mānai.
That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain,

ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सुख सनेहु अरु भै नही जा कै कंचन माटी मानै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sukẖ sanehu ar bẖai nahī jā kai kancẖan mātī mānai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust;||1||Pause||

ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
नह निंदिआ नह उसतति जा कै लोभु मोहु अभिमाना ॥
Nah ninḏi▫ā nah usṯaṯ jā kai lobẖ moh abẖimānā.
Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride;

ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
हरख सोग ते रहै निआरउ नाहि मान अपमाना ॥१॥
Harakẖ sog ṯe rahai ni▫āra▫o nāhi mān apmānā. ||1||
who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor;||1||

ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥
आसा मनसा सगल तिआगै जग ते रहै निरासा ॥
Āsā mansā sagal ṯi▫āgai jag ṯe rahai nirāsā.
who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
कामु क्रोधु जिह परसै नाहनि तिह घटि ब्रहमु निवासा ॥२॥
Kām kroḏẖ jih parsai nāhan ṯih gẖat barahm nivāsā. ||2||
who is not touched by sexual desire or anger - within his heart, God dwells. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ॥
गुर किरपा जिह नर कउ कीनी तिह इह जुगति पछानी ॥
Gur kirpā jih nar ka▫o kīnī ṯih ih jugaṯ pacẖẖānī.
That man, blessed by Guru's Grace, understands this way.

ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥
नानक लीन भइओ गोबिंद सिउ जिउ पानी संगि पानी ॥३॥११॥
Nānak līn bẖa▫i▫o gobinḏ si▫o ji▫o pānī sang pānī. ||3||11||
O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11||

That probably sounds like being a zombie to some but if we are encouraged by the Guru to "remain dead while yet alive" then the word "zombie" might be apropos. It's a long road so I'm not shutting all my emotions down yet, just aiming for a state of being in which my emotions don't have full control over me.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2018)

Could you tell me why you wish to be this man? Being this man is not something I would want, it sounds like a living death, but I am curious, is it the fact that you will merge wit the Lord? is that the incentive? what other incentive could there be unless your fed up with feeling?


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 16, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Could you tell me why you wish to be this man? Being this man is not something I would want, it sounds like a living death, but I am curious, is it the fact that you will merge wit the Lord? is that the incentive? what other incentive could there be unless your fed up with feeling?



Yes, its the merging. Isn't that the point of this path? Where is this path going if not there? Of course following the teachings in the bani will improve your life in many ways on the way to that or apart from that, even if merging with the Creator isn't your goal. I'm not fed up with feeling, but you have to admit that all these feelings get you nowhere. Unless you're of the mind that all these feelings ARE the point of life in which case I'm missing the whole point. I just feel like I'm a better version of me since I've started studying Sikhi so this must be the right path for me and i should see it through, even to the point of being the man mentioned in the bani.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> Yes, its the merging. Isn't that the point of this path? Where is this path going if not there? Of course following the teachings in the bani will improve your life in many ways on the way to that or apart from that, even if merging with the Creator isn't your goal. I'm not fed up with feeling, but you have to admit that all these feelings get you nowhere. Unless you're of the mind that all these feelings ARE the point of life in which case I'm missing the whole point. I just feel like I'm a better version of me since I've started studying Sikhi so this must be the right path for me and i should see it through, even to the point of being the man mentioned in the bani.


Please do not feel I am trying to change your mind, we are all adults on this forum, we have the absolute right to live our lives in whatever fashion we could, it is interesting however that in my own  life, yes, I take the complete opposing view, I have to be honest, merging with the Creator is not my goal, it is not big on my priority list, I feel Creator and I talk to Creator, But I do not wish to be Creator, any more than I wish to be my parents, even though I love them so, yes, these feelings do get you nowhere, they waste time, energy, they sideline you, they take up precious time, but they do give so much pleasure, and misery too, I class how alive I am on how much I can feel, even when things have got so bad that even death would be a easy way out, looking up at the sky on a cold moonlit night and feeling the freezing rain on your face, yeah, I can still feel, things can't be that bad, as the cold rain pounds your skin, you realise that one day, maybe, you won't be able to feel it anymore, I do not look forward to such a day myself, on that day, I may as well go shoot myself, because at that point, its all over,

yeah feelings are shit, but I think its how you process those feelings that are important, rather than complete denial myself,

and yes, I do think that these feelings are the whole point, what else is there?

I have to confess to having an agenda on this point though, truth of the matter is the more I read the above, the more I realise that at this present moment, I am living this way, I will out of interest, quote the shabad


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
> जो नरु दुख मै दुखु नही मानै ॥
> Jo nar ḏukẖ mai ḏukẖ nahī mānai.
> That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain,



yup that's me, however, feelings cannot just be honed to pain, a man that cannot feel pain in the midst of pain cannot feel anything, how does it feel to feel nothing? err like nothing, 



RicktheSikh said:


> ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> सुख सनेहु अरु भै नही जा कै कंचन माटी मानै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> Sukẖ sanehu ar bẖai nahī jā kai kancẖan mātī mānai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust;||1||Pause||


yup me again, for two months, I have refused to allow myself to act like a grateful puppy when pleasure or affection come my way, shove it, shove your pleasure, and shove your affection, as for fear, well, when you reject affection, pleasure, believe me, you have nothing to lose, and thus nothing to fear, did the great god give us these feelings, these abilities to be happy and drown in love, just to reject them?



RicktheSikh said:


> ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
> नह निंदिआ नह उसतति जा कै लोभु मोहु अभिमाना ॥
> Nah ninḏi▫ā nah usṯaṯ jā kai lobẖ moh abẖimānā.
> Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride;


 the world works on validation, everyone needs validation, and everyone gets hurt by slander, me, I could not give two hoots, if anything, I get seriously worried when I am validated or praised, it means I am doing something wrong, again, greed, attachment, pride, have no place in my life, as anyone who sees me on a regular basis will testify, I look like a hobo, talk like a madman, and laugh as the people around me worry about what they have, and how they can have more, {censored}s, do I feel close to God in this respect, no, no way, I feel further away from God, further away from the action, like someone that has just paid a fortune to go Alton Towers, and then spent the whole day looking at the sky



RicktheSikh said:


> ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
> हरख सोग ते रहै निआरउ नाहि मान अपमाना ॥१॥
> Harakẖ sog ṯe rahai ni▫āra▫o nāhi mān apmānā. ||1||
> who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor;||1||



oh I love this, I hate the concept of honor, I hate the fact that honor plays such a huge part of our religion, now I am not talking about the honor that comes with the giving of ones word, personally, my word is quite precious, and I have spent decades honoring my word, and it has cost me a small fortune, but all I have is my word, so that is what honor is to me, and that honor is precious, but the above honor, I believe refers to family honor, or reputation, joy and sorrow, again are alien to me at the moment, but I yearn for them, am starting to yearn for them, I am yearning to feel again, to feel something, any {censored}ing thing



RicktheSikh said:


> ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥
> आसा मनसा सगल तिआगै जग ते रहै निरासा ॥
> Āsā mansā sagal ṯi▫āgai jag ṯe rahai nirāsā.
> who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;
> ...



Yes, thats me, I have renounced all hope, all desire, but I don't feel God dwelling in my heart, I feel dead, ah, there is one word that I have not used yet, that word is free, can't feel much, that is true, but I am as free as a bird, I can do any {censored}ing thing I want, although there is not much I want to do, but everything is open, being spit roasted by two trannies in thailand whilst high on smack, going to work in a pingla home, touring europe on a motorbike, becoming a fully fledged amritdhari,  everything is possible, I am free, but, no I cannot feel God in my heart, but then that depends on who or what God is, personally, I see more of God in a dog turd, than I do in say a Gurdwara committee, or a man all dressed in white, with white turban and black sunglasses, (why are they always aviators?), the dog turd contains purity, a mass of life in a small world of its own, millions of organisms all living, eating, surviving, growing, now that is quite beautiful, well, in my opinion anyway. 



RicktheSikh said:


> ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ॥
> गुर किरपा जिह नर कउ कीनी तिह इह जुगति पछानी ॥
> Gur kirpā jih nar ka▫o kīnī ṯih ih jugaṯ pacẖẖānī.
> That man, blessed by Guru's Grace, understands this way.



ah., here is where I am going wrong, clearly I am not blessed, 


RicktheSikh said:


> ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥
> नानक लीन भइओ गोबिंद सिउ जिउ पानी संगि पानी ॥३॥११॥
> Nānak līn bẖa▫i▫o gobinḏ si▫o ji▫o pānī sang pānī. ||3||11||
> O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11||



for water to merge with water, it has to be water, for a man to merge with the lord of the universe, he would have to be like the lord of the universe, I think there is much much more to being like the lord of the universe than not feeling anything, I have complied with the above shabad completely, yet I am an oddball weirdo that looks like a tramp, whom people accuse of having no drive, or ambition, or honor, or pride, I get sad looks and shakes of heads, you could have been so much Harry, so much, with a nice house, and a nice car, and a business, and a wife, and kids, what a waste they say, what a waste. 

there is more to merging than living like this, much more, there has to be, because allow me to tell you, all I am doing is wasting a god given chance to live and use my skills and abilities to my best


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 16, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> for water to merge with water, it has to be water, for a man to merge with the lord of the universe, he would have to be like the lord of the universe, I think there is much much more to being like the lord of the universe than not feeling anything


I agree. I plan on keeping a sense of humor, empathy, the ability to love (in an unattached way) etc. 



Harry Haller said:


> I have complied with the above shabad completely, yet I am an oddball weirdo that looks like a tramp, whom people accuse of having no drive, or ambition, or honor, or pride, I get sad looks and shakes of heads, you could have been so much Harry, so much, with a nice house, and a nice car, and a business, and a wife, and kids, what a waste they say, what a waste.


i think that you're closer to God than you think, even though you're a weirdo that it seems is being dragged down the path kicking and screaming. What the hell do THEY know, anyway?


Harry Haller said:


> there is more to merging than living like this, much more, there has to be, because allow me to tell you, all I am doing is wasting a god given chance to live and use my skills and abilities to my best


I don't think numbness is the goal, more like transcendence. It sounds like you have transcended a lot of the shit most people are happy to wallow in. You are free! Unattached! To hell with everyone's opinions about you. Find a way to use your talents in a way that makes the world a tiny bit better for even one person and off you go. You have time.


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 16, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> personally, I see more of God in a dog turd, than I do in say a Gurdwara committee, or a man all dressed in white, with white turban and black sunglasses, (why are they always aviators?)


 Spot on!


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## Ishna (Jul 16, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> well as you know I am a stickler for protocol, but in this case, I would appreciate you sharing them , yes



Actually Rick is doing a great job, I don't have much to add.


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## FilledToTheBrim (Jul 16, 2018)

Isn't this bani contradicting the idea that you should be a zombie

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥

_O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way._

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥2॥
_While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||_
(_Ang 522_)


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 17, 2018)

FilledToTheBrim said:


> Isn't this bani contradicting the idea that you should be a zombie
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to stop enjoying life.


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 17, 2018)

Back to the topic of luck, isn't belief in luck superstition?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> I agree. I plan on keeping a sense of humor, empathy, the ability to love (in an unattached way) etc.


 how does one love in an unattached way? does that not destroy the intensity of love? Would you only love God in an attached way?



RicktheSikh said:


> i think that you're closer to God than you think, even though you're a weirdo that it seems is being dragged down the path kicking and screaming. What the hell do THEY know, anyway?


Me and God have a good relationship, I know why I am here, its one of his big jokes, and he laughs with me constantly, mostly about all the bad stuff, which he finds hilarious, 'Harry, your the best sitcom I ever created ever, the amount of amusement I have had watching you do all those terrible things and then dig yourself out, is just off the scale' there is no kicking and screaming, I go down the path, god follows me, laughing hysterically and pointing, he never drags me anywhere, I am just here for comic relief, that is my diktat in life. I could never settle down, it would kill me, and then God would have no one to amuse him,. which is probably why every relationship I ever have had, has me say and do just the right combination to send them running, very fast. They run, he laughs!



RicktheSikh said:


> I don't think numbness is the goal, more like transcendence. It sounds like you have transcended a lot of the shit most people are happy to wallow in. You are free! Unattached! To hell with everyone's opinions about you. Find a way to use your talents in a way that makes the world a tiny bit better for even one person and off you go. You have time.



Numbness, shmumbness, you call it transcendence, I call it numbness, either way, you are shutting yourself off from feeling something, it is true, the only way I could wallowing in all the people shit was to get rid of them, and it worked, no people, no shit, thats a choice rather than numbness, as events of the last 3 months clearly showed, bring people in, and I change, I lose myself, 

I have spent 20 years doing the make the world a better place thing, my experience is it is all completely pointless, all you do is take peoples ability to better themselves by taking on their trials and problems, and stealing the learning ability they could have had, its a fine line between making the world a better place, and interfering with the flow of the world, who is to say that what you perceive as a good action, is a bad action, I am not willing to take that responsibility any more, no, for now, I will just live, there is no grand plan, there is no redemption, there is no fate, or intervention, just today, lets see what lady luck brings.......


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 17, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Why do people confuse good and bad luck, with the actions of God?
> 
> surely your path is determined by your actions, and sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't, what is luck?
> 
> ...


Harry Haller ji thanks for starting this thread.

I believe that we need to recognize a fundamental trait in humans. That is to believe and say, "I know!". This includes you and includes me as much if not more so; and most of the spners. It is not bad trait because it germinates confidence whether it is based on facts or fiction or a mixture thereof. Confidence continuously builds through further experiences, clarifications and realizations. SGGS ji emphasizes through mool mantar how knowing God/creator is not possible. All we can do at best is understand or live in consonance with all we can observe and understand. Furthermore SGGS guides us to observe and learn more. We as Sikhs cannot stop learning. Our Guruji's teach us not only that the world is our oyster but rather that the universe is our oyster. Sikhs seek and see further; much further than what they saw yesterday.

I make the above conjectures and statements because I know . Do I really know, only God knows.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry Haller ji thanks for starting this thread.


good to see you back, 



Ambarsaria said:


> believe that we need to recognize a fundamental trait in humans. That is to believe and say, "I know!". This includes you and includes me as much if not more so; and most of the spners


ah but that is just it, I don't know, I have joined a new club, the don't knows and don't cares, all I really know is today, the day unfolds as it should, without divine intervention, I don't know that, but at the moment that is my holding position, 



Ambarsaria said:


> SGGS ji emphasizes through mool mantar how knowing God/creator is not possible. All we can do at best is understand or live in consonance with all we can observe and understand. Furthermore SGGS guides us to observe and learn more. We as Sikhs cannot stop learning. Our Guruji's teach us not only that the world is our oyster but rather that the universe is our oyster. Sikhs seek and see further; much further than what they saw yesterday.


in your opinion then, are events planned or do they just happen?

really good to see you back!


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 17, 2018)

Harry Haller ji, you say "I don't know ...."; In order to say that you must know. So from what I know and don't know; there is no absolute I don't know nothing and I know it all.

Harry Haller ji there is also a level of predictability in action and reactions, i.e. we do something and there is a reasonable level of certainty about an outcome. However there is a level of uncertainty in all we do no matter how predictable it is. It is this level of uncertainty that makes life fun. The surprises, the coincidences, and so on can be ascribed to hukam, or to a lack of our understanding regarding the totality of all that affects what we do and what outcomes we achieve.

Whereas at macro level many actions-reactions look predictable and similar I am sure you will agree that at the micro or atomic level, no two action reactions are identical. So it also depends upon the acuteness of observation that can throw a curve where we demand or portend that all is definable action-reaction.

The biggest mystery is regarding planned versus just happening. If you look back you may find a mixture of just happening as well as planned and combinations thereof. For example, birth and child's attributes one cannot plan and they just happen. You may reasonably predict to a certain level but not much beyond in future time or space. I am sure at some times in the future it may be possible to plan.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## RicktheSikh (Jul 17, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> how does one love in an unattached way? does that not destroy the intensity of love? Would you only love God in an attached way?


Love is the actions you take to show someone that they are important to you and deserving of care. So much of what most people call love is attachment. The feeling that someone completes you, is your reason for living, that you would die without receiving their love in return, the excruciating pain of trying to hold on to a fleeting emotion, that's not love. That's attachment. I've been a romantic before. Hooked on the highs and lows, in love with the tragedy. It feels great and terrible, like what I imagine it feels like to be hooked on heroin. Moments of pure elation followed by long periods of torturous withdrawl. Done it. I don't want that anymore. I'm now feeling like unattached love is the healthiest kind of love, maybe even the only true kind of love. Loving God is different. It's ok to be attached to God because God is within you and the only love that goes with you beyond this world. 



Harry Haller said:


> Numbness, shmumbness, you call it transcendence, I call it numbness, either way, you are shutting yourself off from feeling something, it is true, the only way I could wallowing in all the people shit was to get rid of them, and it worked, no people, no shit, thats a choice rather than numbness, as events of the last 3 months clearly showed, bring people in, and I change, I lose myself,


I'm making a choice too. You've chosen to be this way to avoid the pain of the human experience, I am choosing to be this way to see what might be beyond human experience. What happens when you strip away everything and focus on your relationship with God? I've never done it before. I've always chased after one distraction or another. This is a learning opportunity for me, not a hibernation.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 18, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry Haller ji, you say "I don't know ...."; In order to say that you must know. So from what I know and don't know; there is no absolute I don't know nothing and I know it all.
> 
> Harry Haller ji there is also a level of predictability in action and reactions, i.e. we do something and there is a reasonable level of certainty about an outcome. However there is a level of uncertainty in all we do no matter how predictable it is. It is this level of uncertainty that makes life fun. The surprises, the coincidences, and so on can be ascribed to hukam, or to a lack of our understanding regarding the totality of all that affects what we do and what outcomes we achieve.
> 
> ...


I cannot argue with that, I would like to argue, but I can't, I need to think about this


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## Jasdeep118 (Jul 18, 2018)

Well, Humans are unique creatures. Whenever someone prays for something, for example, a religious person prays for something when it come's true they praise God, when it doesn't happen they realise they sinned, or that God will message later. While for a person who is secular and pray in the times of need, when something good happens they will mostly assume it was luck or a miracle, or when it doesn't happen they realise that God is weakless or persume that God isn't the all knowing, powerful being. That is my view, I know it is confusing, but its hard for me to explain. Also, it has to do with free will or determinism, I guess. Honestly, I don't know, its hard to explain and well this my view on prayer.


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