# Leaving Sikhism



## monkeyyking (Apr 2, 2010)

<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft SafeHTML"> <style> .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}  </style>   Hi, 

I have been brought up as a devout sikh(No meat, alcohol and  so forth) for 19 years .For the past 2-3 year I have been contemplating  leaving not just sikhism but the entire idea of religion & god(I  have about 2% belief that god really exists)
.This has been brought  about by things such as living in a multicultural london and witnessing  first hand the absurdity of religion, understanding that when somebody  chooses a relgion they automatically condem the rest of mankind that a  life in the service of a god that may not exist is a one and only wasted  life and many more thoughts similar to these. And no these thoughts  didn't come from brain washing (lol) or any one human I've come into  contact with but rather throught generalknowledge reasoning and more  importantly my studies in both psychology and philosophy.I guess what  I'm looking for is an intelligent and informed take on my current  situation which my parents, close family, friends and even my local  gurdwara could not provide to help me make this life changing decision.
Thanks.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 2, 2010)

Dear monkeyyking ji,

At the risk of infuriating you, yours is a fairly typical reaction for a person your age.  It is normal to question and try out different ideas.  I remember when I was a young woman, after reading several of Ayn Rand's books, I decided to be a secret atheist.  (It would have been difficult to do it openly, as I was in a devout Sikh household.)  I tried for a while and then gave it up.

More seriously, I tried again in the years after 1984.  I purposely broke almost all my Khalsa vows and broke with the Sikh community for 20 years.  I tried very hard to believe in all sorts of things - and in nothing.  It didn't work.  After this time, I returned home to Sikhi, a location that has - for me - all the answers I was looking for.

Each of us has our own story.  I wish you Godspeed or whatever you prefer for your journey.  If "truthful living" means to you that you must leave us for a time, you must do what you must do.  Just remember that you have a home and we will be waiting to welcome you back.

:happykaur::happysingh:


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## monkeyyking (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks for your input harjinder (my first reply), correct me if I'm wrong but I think your journey, as it were, was one to find your path in life or find confidene in your pre choosen path . I have heard of this before however my problem arose from try to understand why I am where I was and the most effective way to spend every breath I take on this earth. I would Respectfully like to pose two questions to you and anyone reading this 1.Your comment about having a home, Do you think that your returning to sikhism was caused by your need for emotional solace? 2.(I thought this to myself recently)Isn't it better to live like there is no god, die and learn that there was such a thing rather the live like there is a god die and nothing happens? (I think I'll copyright that! lol)


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 2, 2010)

Actually 1) and 2) have the same answer.  

I lived for 20 years like there was no supreme being (I dislike the term "god" personally), jumping from one thing to the next.  Then I died two times in one night (a major stroke.)  I had a rather dramatic NDE (near death experience), which was "the proof of all _ had never dared to believe."  I hesitate to talk to much about this because I don't want to be "believed."  It might have been the artifact of a dying brain starved for oxygen.  But it was real to me and changed EVERYTHING.  Now I am able to live in chardi kala, absolutely certain that everything really is the Hukam of Vaheguru.  

WEhen I returned, to be truthful, I had no idea how I would be treated.  I was treated with love and consideration, but even if I had been snubbed, I think it would have made no difference.  To again experience the Darshan of Guru ji, to be in its presence was enough.  Now I have a deeper and fuller happiness than I would ever have thought possible.

As Neil Diamond memorably sang, "Being lost is worth the coming home."

<object height="405" width="660">


<embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/TQ4dTqsZbVA&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="405" width="660"></object>

BTW, I'm Harinder.  Harjinder was my Dad._


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## monkeyyking (Apr 2, 2010)

Well I am happy for you, I just hope your not living in dellusion because of a traumatic and subconscious fear of not experiencing enough what you define as love, myself personally I was a serious asmathic for the first 15 years of my life and faced death alot, never got any NDE's hmmm....wonder why:whisling:


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 2, 2010)

LOL, I know why.  The time wasn't right for you.  It all unfolds as it needs to.  I assure you that I have experienced my full share of love and hate, and trauma and whatever is the opposite of trauma.  You are just setting out on this remarkable journey.  You will discover many wonderful and horrible things along the way.  You will learn a great deal - or you won't.  Who knows?  

If my life now is delusion, it is a happy and useful delusion, as I now devote my life to whatever sewa I am able to perform.  I think the world is a little bit better because of this life of mine, whatever it is.

Think on this a bit:  You will change the world.  Everybody does.  The question is: how much and in what way? :blinkingkudi:


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## monkeyyking (Apr 2, 2010)

ah,I too believe in serving fellow humans but would I need god or religion to make a positive change in this world?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 2, 2010)

Not at all.  There are many atheists and nontheists doing a lot of good in this world.  I am just saying that my life, delusionary or not, is accomplishing something positive.  And I am very happy doing it.

My life has not been easy (although it started out that way) or without tragedy and hardship.  By the kirpaa of Vaheguru (or possibly my own efforts + an NDE) I am working past all that.

I wouldn't presume to tell you what is right for you;  you have to find your own "truthful living."  That is a big challenge, as you first have to discover what that means to you.  And it can - and usually does - change over time.  My best wishes on your journey.


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## monkeyyking (Apr 2, 2010)

Well I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your input, It was quite educating maybe I won't find any answers in other but myself thank you BTW to you have any adove on how to deal with parents if I decide not to live a sikh life?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 2, 2010)

Ah, yes, parents!  That's the rub, isn't it?  I can only imagine how I would have felt if my child had come to me and announced he wasn't a Sikh any more.  If this came with no hint beforehand, no doubt I would have had a heart attack!  If I had noticed that he was losing his enthusiasm, I would probably expect something like this.  In any case, I would try to talk him out of it, ask him to take some more time, think about it.  I would no doubt remind him of our shaheeds who had died for our beliefs/way of life and the proud history that he was walking away from.  In the end, being a Sikh cannot be compelled, it must be a free choice, and if he had to find his own way, I hope I would give him my blessing.  I do know that there is nothing that could have changed my love for him.  And I would never give up hoping for his return.

I do not know your parents and what they are like.  No doubt, such an announcement from you will break their hearts and there is no way around that.  You must prepare yourself for whatever reaction they have.  Expect the worst and hope for the best.  There is no easy way.  Whatever you do, do it as an adult, being strong and act like a woman or man (whichever you are).  Unless you fear for your physical safety, sit them down and talk to them in person, as gently as you can.  DO NOT leave them a letter or some such cowardly device.  And most certainly, don't e-mail or text them!! This is a huge step and, since your parents are devout, it may be irrevocable from their point of view.  (I know that's not what we are taught as Sikhs, but parents are, after all, human beings.)

From what I have read of you, I think you are an intelligent thoughtful person and would not put yourself and your family through this lightly, without much soul-searching and consideration.  You will do this only if there is no other way.  Please be 100% sure that this is what you need to do before proceeding.  Take your time.  You have a lot of life ahead of you and there's no hurry, although I know it doesn't seem that way at your age.  I do believe if you really feel that living as a Sikh is not "truthful  living" for you, you cannot live a lie.  Just be very, very, very sure before you approach your parents.

I would also suggest that you read responses from others here at SPN.  We have very good people here, many who have wisdom far beyond mine.

Whatever you do, please let me know.  I will try to be of service.

ikonkaar   :khanda3:  :happykaur:


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## Embers (Apr 2, 2010)

monkeyyking said:


> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft SafeHTML"> <style> .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}  </style>   Hi,
> 
> I have been brought up as a devout sikh(No meat, alcohol and  so forth) for 19 years .For the past 2-3 year I have been contemplating  leaving not just sikhism but the entire idea of religion & god(I  have about 2% belief that god really exists)
> .This has been brought  about by things such as living in a multicultural london and witnessing  first hand the absurdity of religion, understanding that when somebody  chooses a relgion they automatically condem the rest of mankind that a  life in the service of a god that may not exist is a one and only wasted  life and many more thoughts similar to these. And no these thoughts  didn't come from brain washing (lol) or any one human I've come into  contact with but rather throught generalknowledge reasoning and more  importantly my studies in both psychology and philosophy.I guess what  I'm looking for is an intelligent and informed take on my current  situation which my parents, close family, friends and even my local  gurdwara could not provide to help me make this life changing decision.
> Thanks.


Hello Moneyyking and welcome!
I can relate with your post, not because I am from a similar background, not at all, but there appears to be little logic in the way that rituals, prayer or any form of devotion fits in with today's lifestyle and society. People embrace ideas because it feels like the idea is something to hang on to... the lesson to learn from that is that there is no idea that doesn't change at some point. It is not even a societal thing, the apparently absurd behavior of some individuals alone is enough to make it appear that people have lost their minds in it all.

It is up to you what you do and with it will come the consequences of your actions, I don't feel you are looking for a post from me on how to live with a decision or to deal with others disappointment. What I have learnt is that the less impact I make on others which could result in their stress or unhappiness the better I feel after I took any decision. Do things gently. It doesn't mean that one cannot cut oneself free from background and explore, but it makes a life a lot easier to think I did it without worrying those I care about by announcing myself a changed person. So I just go about doing what feels right, with little impact to others.

Forget about prooving God, instead experience life and enjoy the fresh air. No one can proove God for you. Forget about ritual and prayer, instead read the SGGS when you feel the inclination and do something else when not. Not everyone will agree with this, but the rest will happens as it is meant to.

Best wishes
Ambers.


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## ballym (Apr 3, 2010)

OK Moneyisking Ji,
 Sat Sri Akal,
 if u check my other posts, I have almost never did the salutaion ....
It is just to say that "truth is God".
1. Why are you eager to inform ur parents first.
2. Have you finalised what you r going to do after the declaration?
3. What purpose is served? Are you doing any good to humanity by declaring that?
my point in these posers is that you should focus on other important issues about your life/ religion/ atheism path rather than declaring it to your parents.
If  you want to really do it... there are large number of indirect soft ways.
You say that no-one helped you. i guess you were not in right people. It is not easy to find one at Local Gurudwara.
Internet is lot lot powerful.
4. Now let us talk about what your thoughts are. So, how is it final that God is not there. BTW I am also skeptical but ....
 There are rebirth stories... and authenticated ones. There are so many well educated people who have had so many "experiences". If you and I have not had one.. that does not mean that they all are liers.
 How can they ALL be wrong and you may be right all at this age?
It is like someone aying that only I have the knowledge about which stock will go up tomorrow morning 
statistically speaking, you need to gather more evidence about being right.

5.So what path you are going to take after leaving sikhism. None? right? are you sure your brain will allow that? 
human brain is a powerhouse. It has great power to destruct. It needs to be kept in check.
 Religion provides a well oiled breaking system without even identifying itself as such.
 You will have some faith/ belief/ thinking.
 Do you think that is better than all of religion and gurus of the world?
It must be so... otherwise you can find one readymade belief for you. And no good one would allow you to displease near and dear ones.
For finding your path you do not have to leave sikhism.

 I have a feeling that you are using it as a weapon to be even with your parents. It manifests in your eagerness to make the DECLARATION.
I can understand the strictness you may have faced, denial of free speech etc etc etc..... but a retaliatory approach is just a similar act from your side.
 I can tell you that there are sooooooooo many faiths/ Gurus ... you can always find one for you... Do not go by my language. I am not saying that they have opened a shop... but there are many many who are providing real service to mankind.
 I am sure about it.
 disclosure: I have none yet. My mind does not let me accept someone as my Guru.
 But I know many Jatts who  have a Guru.... away fom sikh Gurus!!!.
 I can only say that our religion is best one among the established ones. I am sure you have not done  thorough research.
 You are a seeker... so start the journey without breaking link.


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## ballym (Apr 3, 2010)

monkeyyking said:


> <META name=Generator content="Microsoft SafeHTML"> (I have about 2% belief that god really exists)


 
 BTW 2 % is too high for me.
Guru Nanak says... Kirat karo , van chhakko and naam japo.... where does God come into picture.... if you do not want Him to be there. just leave him. I do not know if I ever went to Gurudwara to find God.
 Our Guru denounced rituals..... That is one of the PRIMARY reasons I am a sikh. And I consider being lucky to be a sikh... though it is being brought to shame by people at the top at present.
 Just imagine if I was a muslim... may be I would have been in mUmbai  with the uns!!! or dead  as fidayeen.. or may be lucky to have four wives.
 It is the followers who bring in wrong practices... your parents may have done it without any mistake on their part.
 In UK, a large population  of sikhs and more percentage came from village background. many still believe that Bhindranwale will comeback!!.
 once again, I would say that you have a large list and area yet unexplored by you.
 Do not act before you really know more.
 SEEK SEEK SEEK more... You are on right track but must be having some bad advisors or no advisors at all.


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## monkeyyking (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm a man BTW lol:rofl!!:.I thank you all for your input but I have already systematically and slowly over the yearss brought the idea to my parents that I may not be a sikh .And I think devout may have been too much of a powerful word, myself or my parents aren't amrit or anything.No one in my family apart from my mum can read prayers and she was the one who encouraged me to question everything.So I had already made my DECLARATION a long time ago over time. for the past couple of months and why I'm using this forum is waiting for something to pull me back because honestly I wish I still belived  in god.It's when I try to pray, try to enter a gurdwara though I'll try, deep down I have too much doubt. The worst is trying to wear paag to the point where I feel physically sick because of putting something so powerful, with great meaning to the point where lives were lost for it and not trully or even moderately *believing* in the core principles it represents (e.g. there is a god.)And yes If I *had to* pick any religion from the world it would not doubt have been sikhism it is clearly the most advanced, and most peace giving.Thanks *ambers* imput I guess I may be more closer to your way of thinking. Or maybe i'm to lazy to start shaving every week :akidd: a little Humor never hurt anyone 
 Please keep your comments coming! they are amazing help.


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## ballym (Apr 3, 2010)

monkeyyking said:


> I'm a man BTW lol:rofl!!:


Could not get this...... I can see what you are thinking or planning... an escape route? Some more words to justify your action....
If you have to go to that path go ahead. Many on this forum have already crossed that line. I would say you are attaching too much importance to it. As you said.. keep searching, thinking are remain true to yourself.
one more sehajdhari sikh? 

OK Bye Bye TaTa.... phir milenge ( we will meet again). if you are born outside India... these words are common at the back of truck frame in India.
 One last bit... totally submitting yourself to Guru brings focus and peace to MANY. It is difficult... I can not do it. But I have seen some people. We may think they are dumb... but they find it blissful.. which is what you may be seeking in life... happiness.


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## monkeyyking (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm probably leaving these forums now, For those of you who are wondering what I'm going to do I will probably leave religion and hope there still is a god.It took admirable sikhs nay humans to show me the greatness of sikhism and more Importantly its high value FOR freedom of choice.I cannot thank you all enough.I may come back but probably not.Hope This thread helps someone else in the future. 

PEACE,LOVE AND RESPECT PAJIS AND PENJIS:thumbsupp:


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## PCJ (Apr 6, 2010)

This youngman's actions wouldn't be considered leaving Sikhi if Sikhi was not defined as such. Perfection is undefined and anything that is defined can not lead to perfection.

I myself left Sikhi because of Sikhi. That may sound crazy but this is true. I learnt to treat all equally from Sikhi because Sikhs always claim that Sikhi is all about equality of all mankind but the truth is Sikhi has nothing at all to do with equality of all mankind. But it was too late for me change...

This youngman is on the right path because he only seeks perfection. The one who seeks perfection will eventually achieve perfection if he puts his mind and soul into it.


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## Astroboy (Apr 6, 2010)

> I would Respectfully like to pose two questions to you and anyone  reading this : Isn't it better to live like there is no  god, die and learn that there was such a thing rather the live like  there is a god die and nothing happens? (I think I'll copyright that!  lol)


Excerpts from The Destiny of a Gurmukh
Those whose inner eye is not open are really atheists in the true sense of the word. Such people have ever persecuted the Masters. Guru Nanak was forbidden to enter the city of Kasur, for they accused him of corrupting the minds of the people. and Guru Arjan was made to sit on a red-hot plate. The outer sacred songs can be sung anywhere by any person, but the true Song of God can only be sung in the company of a Saint. "When you transcend the five elements, you contact the five-sounded Shabad."
The God Power is in you and shall never leave you; that remains forever. 

Mere lip service saying, "Ram, Ram," is a mockery. But he who takes his Guru as the  ever-present Power of God within him, lives in awe of that and knows that Power has constant observation over all his thought and action. 

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God.  By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਲੋਕੁ  ਮਃ  ੫  ॥ 
सलोकु मः ५ ॥ 
Salok mėhlā 5. 
Shalok, Fifth Mehl: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਆਰਾਧਣਾ  ਜਿਹਵਾ  ਜਪਿ  ਗੁਰ  ਨਾਉ  ॥ 
अंतरि गुरु आराधणा जिहवा जपि गुर  नाउ ॥ 
Anṯar gur ārāḏẖ▫ṇā jihvā jap gur nā▫o. 
Deep within yourself,  worship the Guru in adoration, and with your tongue, chant the Guru's  Name. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨੇਤ੍ਰੀ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਪੇਖਣਾ  ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ  ਸੁਨਣਾ  ਗੁਰ  ਨਾਉ  ॥ 
नेत्री सतिगुरु पेखणा स्रवणी  सुनणा गुर नाउ ॥ 
Neṯrī saṯgur pekẖ▫ṇā sarvaṇī sunṇā gur  nā▫o. 
Let your eyes behold the  True Guru, and let your ears hear the Guru's Name. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸੇਤੀ  ਰਤਿਆ  ਦਰਗਹ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਠਾਉ  ॥ 
सतिगुर सेती रतिआ दरगह पाईऐ ठाउ ॥ 
Saṯgur seṯī raṯi▫ā ḏargėh pā▫ī▫ai ṯẖā▫o. 
Attuned to the True Guru,  you shall receive a place of honor in the Court of the Lord. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਕਰੇ  ਜਿਸ  ਨੋ  ਏਹ  ਵਥੁ  ਦੇਇ  ॥ 
कहु नानक किरपा करे जिस नो एह वथु  देइ ॥ 
Kaho Nānak kirpā kare jis no eh vath ḏe▫e. 
Says Nanak, this treasure  is bestowed on those who are blessed with His Mercy. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਗ  ਮਹਿ  ਉਤਮ  ਕਾਢੀਅਹਿ  ਵਿਰਲੇ  ਕੇਈ  ਕੇਇ  ॥੧॥ 
जग महि उतम काढीअहि विरले केई केइ  ॥१॥ 
Jag mėh uṯam kādẖī▫ah virle ke▫ī ke▫e.  ||1|| 
In the midst of the world,  they are known as the most pious - they are rare indeed. ||1|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## ballym (Apr 7, 2010)

PCJ said:


> This youngman's actions wouldn't be considered leaving Sikhi if Sikhi was not defined as such. Perfection is undefined and anything that is defined can not lead to perfection.
> 
> I myself left Sikhi because of Sikhi. That may sound crazy but this is true. I learnt to treat all equally from Sikhi because Sikhs always claim that Sikhi is all about equality of all mankind but the truth is Sikhi has nothing at all to do with equality of all mankind. But it was too late for me change...
> 
> This youngman is on the right path because he only seeks perfection. The one who seeks perfection will eventually achieve perfection *if* he puts his mind and soul into it.


 
This word "if" is powerful. It allows people to state ANYTHING and qualify it later.
So we have a precedent in PCJ.
But PCJ has not enlightened us if he/she has found perfection. If yes... *how ..* and let us have the benefit of finding it ourselves. If you are yet to find it then.... we need to say nothing more.
Let us have yes no type answers.
 All such people seem to be enlightened and philosophical.... away from real world..... and without answeres for us   ... still in dark.
If sikhi guided about equality.. did it do it by professing inequality? What is other alternative.* Did you find it? *
merely making statement without clarification... like moneyisking..... is agin showing here.
Let us have light..... Mercury light....
 One last thing.... why does these direct questions remain unanswered.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 7, 2010)

"The answers we give, Yes or no - or maybe - 
Should be clear.  The darkness around us is deep."


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## PCJ (Apr 8, 2010)

ballym said:


> This word "if" is powerful. It allows people to state ANYTHING and qualify it later.
> So we have a precedent in PCJ.
> But PCJ has not enlightened us if he/she has found perfection. If yes... *how ..* and let us have the benefit of finding it ourselves. If you are yet to find it then.... we need to say nothing more.
> Let us have yes no type answers.
> ...


 
Perfection is not found. Instead it is experienced with every breath we take...

Perfection is infinite. Therefore, nobody can stop at certain point and claim that he or she has found perfection.

When it comes to equality of mankind in Sikhi, it's mentioned here and there but not practiced at all. In fact, there is also contradiction where inequality is preached. It's impossible for religion to practice equality at all. That's why people of religion are at loss. For example, as long as you have attached yourself to a religion, you will be always have reasons to unfairly discriminate against people. Therefore, you will not be heading towards perfection at all.

People often refuse to accept truth simply because it makes their religion look bad or at least they think it makes their religion look bad. That's why as long as you have any association at all with religion, you are less likely to be honest, let alone approaching perfection....

What questions are unanswered?


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## ballym (Apr 8, 2010)

I guess I am not upto your level. Your statement does not touch my plain.
I used highlighting function to seek enlightenment as quickly as possible so that I am enlightened.As per you, Sikhi is bad , atleast about equality.... so what next? Where do we go. What path . Where. To Whom we seek?
Pleasse read my earlier posts about empty directionless human brain.
Give us direction to path of equality. Where is it found. may be in China.
However, your AVATAR is similar to mine at some other site 


> It's impossible for religion to practice equality at all. That's why people of religion are at loss. For example, as long as you have attached yourself to a religion, you will be always have reasons to unfairly discriminate against people.


Are you talking about taliban/bhindranwale/ sgpc type religion? Yes that is bad...but then you are far away from true religion. The true one is about eqaulity/ devotional music/ donating/helping/focus. you may not need a religion at your age... but think about a youngster who is learning life lessons, new experiences in a free world. they need focus/ direction and a purpose. Religion provides an easy way to get it.
I am asking again ... if not this then what else? movies/ sex/ drugs/ indiscipline/lack of direction/freedom to do anything..... even get idea of jumping in front of a oncoming train? An empty mind without focus can do anykind of harm ... to others or to self.
Again.... What is the other option? Where should the youth go.
The topic chould have been LEAVING RELIGION TO ATHEISM... *am I right?* Your points are not only on sikhism*... but for all religions.*

If you are talking about people who say... my religion is best, then I agree with you. 
Even in sikhi there are people who say so. It is a human nature, many people do this mistake. I am not with them at all. that is why utter capitalism does not go hand in hand with true religion.
Muslim and christian say so very clearly that they are best. Hindu say that even within their religion , all are not equal.
So what are other options? atheism? no God, no power ... no rules?

Specifically, do you agree to my last few lines?


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## PCJ (Apr 8, 2010)

ballym said:


> I guess I am not upto your level. Your statement does not touch my plain.
> I used highlighting function to seek enlightenment as quickly as possible so that I am enlightened.As per you, Sikhi is bad , atleast about equality.... so what next? Where do we go. What path . Where. To Whom we seek?
> Pleasse read my earlier posts about empty directionless human brain.
> Give us direction to path of equality. Where is it found. may be in China.
> However, your AVATAR is similar to mine at some other site


 
Your simply have to start being honest with yourself.


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## ballym (Apr 8, 2010)

PCJ said:


> Your simply have to start being honest with yourself.


Please guide me ... I am a seeker of eqaulity.I was in dark. Please guide me... show me the path...... please.
How should I start being honest to myself? ......in relation to this discussion.
What action should I take. Close eyes... open eyes/ see in void... get up at ten.... twelve.... six. What should I ACTUALLY DO to be honest with myself and being equal to all?
You are enlightened....I am not. step by step guide is required.... otherwise there is no point in saying that others are wrong/ bad/ ignorant . 
Unless a practical solution/path is thereone can not blame/ find fault with others.
I notice that there is one liners again. Please notice additions to my last post.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

monkeyyking said:


> <META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator> <STYLE> .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}  </STYLE>Hi,
> 
> I have been brought up as a devout sikh(No meat, alcohol and so forth) for 19 years .For the past 2-3 year I have been contemplating leaving not just sikhism but the entire idea of religion & god(I have about 2% belief that god really exists)
> .This has been brought about by things such as living in a multicultural london and witnessing first hand the absurdity of religion, understanding that when somebody chooses a relgion they automatically condem the rest of mankind that a life in the service of a god that may not exist is a one and only wasted life and many more thoughts similar to these. And no these thoughts didn't come from brain washing (lol) or any one human I've come into contact with but rather throught generalknowledge reasoning and more importantly my studies in both psychology and philosophy.I guess what I'm looking for is an intelligent and informed take on my current situation which my parents, close family, friends and even my local gurdwara could not provide to help me make this life changing decision.
> Thanks.


 
I know EXACTLY how you feel.

I found aspects about Sikhism absurd and for many years cared nothing for it, UNTIL I met some good people and on line.

I used to find arguments about god absurd, until I learned about Pantheism and Sikhi.

I found arguments about meat absurd, because science tells me milk is ineffect flesh. Then I learned vegetarian or meat is your own choice.

I found the rampant Sexism absured, until I read Bani and discovered that the soul is genderless.

I found the caste issues absurd with both sides bashing each other, but Bani states it is Caste Pride we must watch out for. We can have pride in in not believing in caste too.

Now I read Bani, and follow Sikhi directly from that. I am not bothered about what these Sants, Baba's etc drone on about, because through Bani I have discovered true freedom.


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## spnadmin (Apr 8, 2010)

Randip ji


Your comments are next to pure poetry. Please grant this forum a long essay, or series of essays, on the points that you have raised above. Truly inspiring stuff.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 8, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Randip ji
> 
> 
> Your comments are next to pure poetry. Please grant this forum a long essay, or series of essays, on the points that you have raised above. Truly inspiring stuff.



Yes, Randip ji, please!  I really want to read more.


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## PCJ (Apr 8, 2010)

ballym said:


> Please guide me ... I am a seeker of eqaulity.I was in dark. Please guide me... show me the path...... please.
> How should I start being honest to myself? ......in relation to this discussion.
> What action should I take. Close eyes... open eyes/ see in void... get up at ten.... twelve.... six. What should I ACTUALLY DO to be honest with myself and being equal to all?
> You are enlightened....I am not. step by step guide is required.... otherwise there is no point in saying that others are wrong/ bad/ ignorant .
> ...


 
What works for me may or may not work for you. But the most important lesson in my life was to be honest with your own self which came from my 4-5th grade teacher.

Think about this, The Lord can be nothing but perfect, he can not be biased, bigot, racist or anything else creates friction among human beings. But the first thing the people of religion look at is whether or not the other people looks like them. For example, the first thing Sikhs look at is whether or not the other person has turban on and then you treat or mistreat people based on what religion they follow or they don't follow.

Now that someone, I think her name was Gurmeet Kaur, in her article, suggested that Sikhs should classify Sikh as their race in 2010 US Census, any Sikhi-based discrimination can actually be classified as racism.

Since Lord has created everything and everyone and as we know that an ideal parent treats his or her children equally, Lord must treat all of His children equally. But religions have actually come up disrespectful terms for the people who are not exactly like them. For example, Muslims call non-Muslims Kafirs. Sikhs call monas Patit and some even call them Saakats and then they mistreat using the verbiage they usually don't want to hear about them. This is very obvious that such behaviour can not come from The Lord, which in turn obviously means that religion actually didn't come from Lord Himself.

Now it's time to be honest to yourself. Since we know that religions didn't come from The Lord Himself, do we really want to follow religion?


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## PCJ (Apr 8, 2010)

ballym said:


> The topic chould have been LEAVING RELIGION TO ATHEISM... *am I right?* Your points are not only on sikhism*... but for all religions.*


 
People often misuse term Atheism. Atheism is not believing in The Creator at all. Not believing in a religion is not same as not believing in The Creator. I am simply not convinced that religion has anything at all to with The Creator.


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## ballym (Apr 8, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> I know EXACTLY how you feel.
> 
> I found aspects about Sikhism absurd and for many years cared nothing for it, UNTIL I met some good people and on line.
> 
> ...


That is , I think what Guru Nanak's one of the main message. Stay in this world but stay true. Do not get false pride. Live in such a way that you do not accidentally follow wrong path full of ego. At the same time, never talk bad about any person or idea or system without any due reason.

True religion is seeing God within self and in  everyone.When God is one then Krishna, Ram, formless, Allah, Christ must all be same. Problem arise when someone says my God is better even though his God may have never claimed so.If any God makes such claim, he/she can not be God.

As such, any religion making someone getting divisive idea, has some flaws, either in its basics or the persons following and interpreting him.
True religion can never promote division. If it does, someone has not understood it correctly. If someone says that he/she is right and does not feel comfortable in facing others, there is something wrong in his/her understanding. More analysis and contemplation is needed.


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## kds1980 (Apr 8, 2010)

> For example, Muslims call non-Muslims Kafirs. Sikhs call monas Patit and some even call them Saakats and then they mistreat using the verbiage they usually don't want to hear about them. This is very obvious that such behaviour can not come from The Lord, which in turn obviously means that religion actually didn't come from Lord Himself.
> 
> Now it's time to be honest to yourself. Since we know that religions didn't come from The Lord Himself, do we really want to follow religion?



1st please define religion in your own term

2nd There are followers of many baba's in India who constantly say that following them is not religion yet we have seen their followers indulging in Voilence what about them?


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## Sinister (Apr 8, 2010)

PCJ said:


> Perfection is not found. Instead it is experienced with every breath we take...
> 
> Perfection is infinite. Therefore, nobody can stop at certain point and claim that he or she has found perfection.
> 
> ...


 
you are using words...like Religion? 
would you consider eastern religion eastern Romanticism?

YouTube- What is Religion? - Krishnamurti


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## ballym (Apr 8, 2010)

PCJ said:


> People often misuse term Atheism. Atheism is not believing in The Creator at all. Not believing in a religion is not same as not believing in The Creator. I am simply not convinced that religion has anything at all to with The Creator.


I guess entire mankind is more interested in getting guidance rather than technical clarifications. People go to great length to seek peace and enlightenment. I am ready to wait.
people have given their entire life for enlightenment .. I am ready and waiting.
BTW, do you agree that any religion who teaches division is not true..and someone is committing a mistake.. as I stated above?
Were you laughing while reading these responses and then thinking what to write to make us more desperate? Do you get a kick out of it? 
Again I have added some more questions and requests.


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## spnadmin (Apr 8, 2010)

ballym ji

Respected forum moderator and member *dalbirk ji,* in a previous post, requested PJC to leave this forum in peace based on his past experiences here and on other forums. It has not happened.

The best thing to do is to ignore the frustrating remarks. As you have noted, _they are designed to frustrate._ Pick up some ideas of others who have posted here. Give your personal reactions, which will lead the discussion into a more productive direction.


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## ballym (Apr 8, 2010)

I think it is better to keep myself at my level. I am too far away from God. if someone gets the key to life at the age of 10 in grade 4-5 then I am truly much far away and I cannot even think of catching up.
 chapter closed.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 8, 2010)

ballym said:


> I think it is better to keep myself at my level. I am too far away from God. if someone gets the key to life at the age of 10 in grade 4-5 then I am truly much far away and I cannot even think of catching up.
> chapter closed.




Ballym ji,

It is not a competition;  we are all here to help and encourage each other.  Catching up makes no sense.  We are all where we are on this journey and it's hard, maybe impossible, to know who's ahead and who's behind.  I have no idea, for example, where I am, so I just keeping putting one foot in front of the other and who can tell where it will lead.

It's all attitude ji.

Remain in chardi kala!


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## PCJ (Apr 9, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> ballym ji
> 
> Respected forum moderator and member *dalbirk ji,* in a previous post, requested PJC to leave this forum in peace based on his past experiences here and on other forums. It has not happened.
> 
> The best thing to do is to ignore the frustrating remarks. As you have noted, _they are designed to frustrate._ Pick up some ideas of others who have posted here. Give your personal reactions, which will lead the discussion into a more productive direction.


 
I don't know what's frustrating you but nothing is designed to frustrate anybody. I haven't even used the terminology equivalent to the terminology Amritdhari Sikhs use towards others and it's frustrating you.

But please do talk about what's bothering you so that we can further talk about it. What I have posted is truth and nothing but truth and if the truth bothers you, obviously you need to make some changes in your life to be aligned with the truth.


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## PCJ (Apr 9, 2010)

Sinister said:


> you are using words...like Religion?
> would you consider eastern religion eastern Romanticism?
> 
> YouTube- What is Religion? - Krishnamurti


 
It seems that what has been happening is that people, out of curiosity, have wondered about them as to where they belong and source they came from. 

While wondering about ourselves, people thought that there must be a creator and then they started talking and/or writing about their ideas on what/how the creator. Those ideas were compiled into religious scriptures. Then someone else came up with his or her own ideas about what and how The Creator could which were either entirely different or with some similarities to the ideas already existed and this gave birth to more religions.

As long as significant number of people agreed with and followed someone, the person they followed became the founder of a new religion.


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## spnadmin (Apr 9, 2010)

ballym ji

The shabad below conveys a complex message. But in my eyes it seems to fit well with much of the discussion. It seems to me anyway that Guru Nanak ji is talking about taking a different direction in our journey to find an inner truth. Religion in the sense of one of its earlier meanings.
_
ORIGIN Middle English (originally in the sense [life under monastic vows] ): from Old French, or from Latin religio(n-) ‘obligation, bond, reverence,’ perhaps based on Latin religare ‘to bind.’_

The word religion suggests to re-unite, to link or bind ourselves once again to something that resides within us. 

It might even make sense to discuss individual tuks within the shabad. It is easy to jump to conclusions, but in the overall context of the shabad Guru Nanak may be sketching out a path that understands "union" as a bridge away from regrets over our past misdeeds into a different life-style. This new life style may or may not necessarily take the form of traditional, organized religious practice. 

What do you think?

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਛੰਤ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">dhhanaasaree shhanth mehalaa 1 ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Dhanaasaree, Chhant, First Mehl:
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪਿਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਮੂਠੜੀਏ  ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">pir sang mootharreeeae khabar n paaeeaa jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Your Husband Lord is with you, O  deluded soul-bride, but you do are not aware of Him.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਿਖਿਅੜਾ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">masathak likhiarraa laekh purab  kamaaeiaa jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Your  destiny is written on your forehead, according to your past actions.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਣਾ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਸੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">laekh n mittee purab kamaaeiaa  kiaa jaanaa kiaa hosee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">This inscription of past deeds cannot be erased; what do I  know about what will happen?
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਣੀ ਅਚਾਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਅਵਗੁਣ ਬਹਿ ਬਹਿ ਰੋਸੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">gunee achaar nehee rang raathee  avagun behi behi rosee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">You have not adopted a virtuous lifestyle, and you are not  attuned to the Lord's Love; you sit there, crying over your past  misdeeds.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਧਨੁ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਆਕ ਕੀ ਛਾਇਆ ਬਿਰਧਿ ਭਏ ਦਿਨ ਪੁੰਨਿਆ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">dhhan joban aak kee shhaaeiaa  biradhh bheae dhin punniaa ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Wealth and youth are like the shade of the bitter  swallow-wort plant; you are growing old, and your days are coming to  their end.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਦੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਛੂਟੀ ਝੂਠਿ ਵਿਛੁੰਨਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak naam binaa dhohaagan  shhoottee jhooth vishhunniaa ||1||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you  shall end up as a discarded, divorced bride; your own falsehood shall  separate you from the Lord. ||1||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਬੂਡੀ ਘਰੁ ਘਾਲਿਓ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ਚਲੋ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">booddee ghar ghaaliou gur kai  bhaae chalo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">You  have drowned, and your house is ruined; walk in the Way of the Guru's  Will.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੁਖਿ ਮਹਲੋ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">saachaa naam dhhiaae paavehi sukh  mehalo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Meditate  on the True Name, and you shall find peace in the Mansion of the Lord's  Presence.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਤਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ਪੇਈਅੜੈ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰੇ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">har naam dhhiaaeae thaa sukh  paaeae paeeearrai dhin chaarae ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Meditate on the Lord's Name, and you shall find peace;  your stay in this world shall last only four days.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਇ ਬਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਏ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">nij ghar jaae behai sach paaeae  anadhin naal piaarae ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Sit in the home of your own being, and you shall find  Truth; night and day, be with your Beloved.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਵਿਣੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸੁਣਿਅਹੁ ਲੋਕ ਸਬਾਏ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">vin bhagathee ghar vaas n hovee  suniahu lok sabaaeae ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Without loving devotion, you cannot dwell in your own home  - listen, everyone!
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਸੀ ਤਾ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਏ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਏ ॥੨॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak sarasee thaa pir paaeae  raathee saachai naaeae ||2||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, she is happy, and she obtains her Husband Lord,  if she is attuned to the True Name. ||2||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪਿਰੁ ਧਨ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਪਿਰ ਭਾਵੈ ਨਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">pir dhhan bhaavai thaa pir bhaavai  naaree jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">If  the soul-bride is pleasing to her Husband Lord, then the Husband Lord  will love His bride.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਰੰਗਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਰਾਤੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">rang preetham raathee gur kai  sabadh veechaaree jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Imbued with the love of her Beloved, she contemplates the  Word of the Guru's Shabad.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਨਾਹ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੇਈ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">gur sabadh veechaaree naah  piaaree niv niv bhagath karaeee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">She contemplates the Guru's Shabads, and her Husband Lord  loves her; in deep humility, she worships Him in loving devotion.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਜਲਾਏ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਰੇਈ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">maaeiaa mohu jalaaeae preetham ras  mehi rang karaeee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">She burns away her emotional attachment to Maya, and in  love, she loves her Beloved.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੰਗੇਤੀ ਲਾਲ ਭਈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">prabh saachae saethee rang  rangaethee laal bhee man maaree ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">She is imbued and drenched with the Love of the True  Lord; she has become beautiful, by conquering her mind.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚਿ ਵਸੀ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਪਿਰ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥੩॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak saach vasee sohaagan pir  sio preeth piaaree ||3||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, the happy soul-bride abides in Truth; she loves  to love her Husband Lord. ||3||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪਿਰ ਘਰਿ ਸੋਹੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਜੇ ਪਿਰ ਭਾਵਏ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">pir ghar sohai naar jae pir  bhaaveae jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The  soul-bride looks so beautiful in the home of her Husband Lord, if she  is pleasing to Him.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਝੂਠੇ ਵੈਣ ਚਵੇ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਏ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">jhoothae vain chavae kaam n aaveae  jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">It is of  no use at all to speak false words.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਝੂਠੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਪਿਰੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਨੈਣੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jhooth alaavai kaam n aavai naa  pir dhaekhai nainee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">If she speaks false, it is of no use to her, and she does  not see her Husband Lord with her eyes.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਅਵਗੁਣਿਆਰੀ ਕੰਤਿ ਵਿਸਾਰੀ ਛੂਟੀ ਵਿਧਣ ਰੈਣੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">avaguniaaree kanth visaaree  shhoottee vidhhan rainee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Worthless, forgotten and abandoned by her Husband Lord,  she passes her life-night without her Lord and Master.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਫਾਹੀ ਫਾਥੀ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">gur sabadh n maanai faahee  faathhee saa dhhan mehal n paaeae ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Such a wife does not believe in the Word of the Guru's  Shabad; she is caught in the net of the world, and does not obtain the  Mansion of the Lord's Presence.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak aapae aap pashhaanai  guramukh sehaj samaaeae ||4||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, if she understands her own self, then, as  Gurmukh, she merges in celestial peace. ||4||
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</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਧਨ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਪਿਰੁ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">dhhan sohaagan naar jin pir  jaaniaa jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Blessed  is that soul-bride, who knows her Husband Lord.
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</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੂੜਿਆਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਕਮਾਣਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naam binaa koorriaar koorr  kamaaniaa jeeo ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Without  the Naam, she is false, and her actions are false as well.
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</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੀ ਸਾਚੇ ਭਾਵੀ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਰਾਤੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">har bhagath suhaavee saachae  bhaavee bhaae bhagath prabh raathee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Devotional worship of the Lord is  beautiful; the True Lord loves it. So immerse yourself in loving  devotional worship of God.
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</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਪਿਰੁ ਰਲੀਆਲਾ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਬਾਲਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਾਵੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">pir raleeaalaa joban baalaa this  raavae rang raathee ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Husband Lord is playful and innocent; imbued with His  Love, I enjoy Him.
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</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਵਿਗਾਸੀ ਸਹੁ ਰਾਵਾਸੀ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਣਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">gur sabadh vigaasee sahu  raavaasee fal paaeiaa gunakaaree ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">She blossoms forth through the Word of the Guru's Shabad;  she ravishes her Husband Lord, and obtains the most noble reward.
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</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਿਰ ਘਰਿ ਸੋਹੈ ਨਾਰੀ ॥੫॥੩॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak saach milai vaddiaaee pir  ghar sohai naaree ||5||3||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, in Truth, she obtains glory; in her Husband's  home, the soul-bride looks beautiful. ||5||3||</td></tr></tbody></table>

The shabad is on Ang 689 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.


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