# Philosophical (Western) Taoist And The Sikh



## Ozarks (Jul 3, 2009)

Sat Sri Akal

I was contemplating the nature of Waheguru this morning and comparing (my) today's (ever changing) understanding to thoughts I have had in the past. In doing so I was thinking about the Tao. And the more I tried to contrast what I have learned of Sikhism to the Taoist way the harder it became. Admittedly Sikhism goes further than the Tao Te Ching, however I see that they are often in agreement even if their approaches are (at least superficially) different. 
If I stepped on toes I didn't mean to I would just like to hear opinions or site examples of where I am way off base.
(Please keep in mind the philosophical nature of the Tao is what I'm talking about not the Chinese folk religion part that as attached itself to the original philosophy.)


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## Astroboy (Jul 4, 2009)

The Way
Abstraction
Without Action
Limitless
Nature
Experience
Complete
Water
Retire
Harmony
Tools
Substance
Self
Mystery
Enlightenment
Decay and Renewal
Rulers
Hypocrisy
Simplify
Wandering
Accept
Home
Words
Indulgence
Beneath Abstraction
Calm
Perfection
 

Becoming
Ambition
Violence
Armies
Shapes
Virtues
Control
Peace
Opposition
Tranquillity
Ritual 
Support
Motion and Use
Following
Mind
Overcoming
Contentment
Quiet
Horses
Knowing
Inaction
People
Death
Nurture
Clarity
Difficult Paths
Cultivate Harmony
 

Soft Bones
Impartiality
Conquer with Inaction
No End
Restraint
Demons
Submission
Sin
Difficulty
(a)Care at the Beginning/(b)Care at the End
Subtlety
Lead by Following
Unimportance
Compassion
Ambush
Individuality
Limitation
Revolution
Fate
Execution
Rebellion
Flexibility
Need
Yielding
Reconciliation
Utopia
The Sage


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## Ozarks (Jul 4, 2009)

Thank you Namjap Ji. That is very helpful! 

This morning (my most poetic/spiritual time) I thought that and introduction to the Tao is like plowing the fields of the mind. But like a plowed field the mind seeks more than just to be prepared. The Tao tends to leave you wanting more. It may bring a peace to the mind, a sense of understanding, but then leaves it in contemplation. Most often the heart desires an active practice. That is where and why Chinese folk religion(s) attached themselves to the Tao. But what if that next step is not the step into Chinese folk religion but what if it is to the Guru Granth Sahib? With the Guru Granth Sahib as a guide to prayer and further contemplation the mind that has been brought to an understanding is further enriched. The heart that desires participation is rewarded. Both having sought and found a connection with the divine. I feel that when Lao Tzu wrote he was bringing it to the curious mind. Guru Nanak brought it to the heart.


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## Astroboy (Jul 5, 2009)

Self

Both praise and blame cause concern,
For they bring people hope and fear.
The object of hope and fear is the self

For, without self, to whom may fortune and disaster occur?

 Therefore,
Who distinguishes himself from the world may be given the world,
But who regards himself as the world may accept the world.                    



> Admittedly Sikhism goes further than the Tao Te Ching, however I see that they are often in agreement even if their approaches are (at least superficially) different.


Agreed.

Page 290, Line 19
ਤਬ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸਹਿ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥
तब हरख सोग कहु किसहि बिआपत ॥
Ŧab harakẖ sog kaho kisėh bi▫āpaṯ.
*then who experienced joy and sorrow*?
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Please read the full pauri to see the similarity of concept.
[/SIZE]


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## Josh martin (Jul 8, 2009)

The heart that desires participation is rewarded[quote

tell me more


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## Ozarks (Jul 9, 2009)

About the comparisons between the two? I had given some thought to a Tao verse by verse comparison to the Gurbani but thought that may be overkill (not to mention a bit long). But perhaps that is not so much of what you are after. What would you like to know more about the "why" I think this (from a philosophical/theological stand point) or direct comparison of the primary works (Tao Te Ching and the Siri Guru Granth Sahib)?


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## spnadmin (Jul 9, 2009)

I would think Ozarks ji that either way to answer would add to the conversation. You decide.


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## Josh martin (Jul 9, 2009)

I am not really interested in comparison between these religions. I am more interested in knowing more about the line _I _quoted

The heart that desires participation is rewarded[quote


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## Ozarks (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm sorry Josh, I misunderstood.  If I may I will quote myself:

"With the Guru Granth Sahib as a guide to prayer and further contemplation the mind that has been brought to an understanding is further enriched. The heart that desires participation is rewarded. Both having sought and found a connection with the divine."

It is my belief that the Way is in fact the natural order and the natural order is a reflection of the will of the Creator. As humans we tend to deceive ourselves by living our lives holding a mirror in front of our faces. This leads us to believe that we (or the all mighty "Me") is the center of all things. This leads us to put our desires and plans ahead of anyone else and ahead of the natural order, or the Creator's Will. This leads to a disharmony/discord. Disharmony will (eventually) turn on itself as a form of correction. This can lead to ruined plans, attitudes or lives. 

If however we put down the mirror and see the Creation for what it is we may learn from it's Divine Harmony. (Divine because it reflects the Will of the Divine.) If we life my that harmony alone our lives would be much improved. We would be at a greater peace with ourselves. This is more in line with the animals in nature. (I know the argument that (all) animals don't live in peace. However they tend not to be self destructive and are driven by basic needs as opposed to feeding the ego.) 

But we, as humans, have the opportunity to not only see the natural order, but to give thanks and try to reach an even higher connection the the Creator of that order. In order to try to do that we have created theologies to attempt to begin to understand the Creator. My comparison of the Tao Te Ching and the Siri Guru Granth Sahib is positing that the Tao is a reflection of the Natural Order to attempt to become harmonious and  glimpse the Will of the Creator, while the Siri Guru Granth Sahib points to the natural order in celebration of the Creator for the Creation. One flows naturally into the other. The Tao Te Ching prepares the mind, the Siri Guru Granth Sahib the heart.


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

Ozarks said:


> I'm sorry Josh, I misunderstood.  If I may I will quote myself:
> 
> It is my belief that the Way is in fact the natural order and the natural order is a reflection of the will of the Creator.



I think I agree with you here. Sant Atar singh ji in sabha in Shiri harmandir sahib said thats its not control(keep it still) ones "Mun" by force. The real way; by following the, i like how u put it here, "natural" order Mun  naturally flows into state called "Vus".

While Guru Sahib ji say that who which went(did something) to find God by themselves(without Guru) lost themselves.(might go in detail if asked)

Natural order, _from my understanding_, is the ever-so Nirmal Gursikhi, where Guru, by his grace shows us that God is in our own home/heart.
Divine Harmony also known as Hukam/bhana/will of the creater is one of early powri's in Japji Sahib and If I may be bold enough, one of the foundations of Sikhism.


This seems little confusing?  Your response and I try to go back to heart that desire participation.


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

Ozarks said:


> I'm sorry Josh, I misunderstood.  If I may I will quote myself:
> 
> "With the Guru Granth Sahib as a guide to prayer and further contemplation the mind that has been brought to an understanding is further enriched. The heart that desires participation is rewarded. Both having sought and found a connection with the divine."
> 
> ...



Ozarks ji

You may be grappling here with our own conceptualization of Dharma and its meaning in the broad, not the narrow, sense. 

In the earliest veda, the Rigveda, Dharma represents the concept of justice and harmony in the natural order -- which is Divine because it is the order that lies behind the laws of nature. From that vantage point Dharma then comes to mean the just or righteous path and takes on ethical meaning as well as a metaphysical meaning. Dharma is believed in the "dharmic" faiths part of each stage of spiritual development, and as such is the way by which we filter our interactions with all of the natural and social environment. 

Within Sikhism, Dharma means the path of righteousness, and it is revealed through our actions and deeds, i.e., how we filter our interactions with all natural and social environments, in a way that is consistent with the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji.

My understanding.


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## Astroboy (Aug 1, 2009)

2,500 years ago, the Chinese philosopher Confucius asked Lao-tzu, the founder of Taoism, "What is Tao?" Lao-tzu opened his mouth but said nothing. Confucius left with a smile, but his students were puzzled. Confucius explained, "Lao-tzu has passed us the Tao. In his mouth, there are no teeth but only a tongue. The hard ones (teeth) died, but the soft one (the tongue) lives; the soft power is stronger than the hard power. That's the Tao!"

Open source is such a soft power. "Soft power is like water," Lao-tzu explained in his book, _Tao Te Ching_. A single water drop is powerless, but numerous water drops are torrential. Likewise, a single open source participant counts for little, but numerous participants make the open source community strong. Traditional software, on the other hand, is a hard power, like teeth. One big tooth can be strong (take Microsoft, for example), but teeth fall out as time goes by.


_Sorry guys, I couldn't find an example from SGGS which compliments this water and stone relationship. But this is what I found so far:-_

ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਨੀਰੁ ਪਵਾਇਆ ॥ 
पाथर कउ बहु नीरु पवाइआ ॥ 
Pāthar ka▫o baho nīr pavā▫i▫ā. 
Stones may be kept under water for a long time. 

ਨਹ ਭੀਗੈ ਅਧਿਕ ਸੂਕਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
नह भीगै अधिक सूकाइआ ॥२॥ 
Nah bẖīgai aḏẖik sūkā▫i▫ā. ||2|| 
Even so, they do not absorb the water; they remain hard and dry. ||2||


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2009)

NamJap ji

" Confucius asked Lao-tzu, the founder of Taoism, "What is Tao?" Lao-tzu opened his mouth but said nothing. Confucius left with a smile, but his students were puzzled. Confucius explained, "Lao-tzu has passed us the Tao. In his mouth, there are no teeth but only a tongue. The hard ones (teeth) died, but the soft one (the tongue) lives; the soft power is stronger than the hard power. That's the Tao!" "

Tao, unlike Buddhism, is not a metaphysical system or philosophy. Tao is a practical path of wisdom crafted from the experiences of people in rising to the challenges of time and space. These two Buddhism and Taoism should not be confused. 

_Soft_ and _hard_, _teeth_ and _tongue,_ _many_ and_ one,_ _are_ and _is not_, _died_ and _lives_ are all part of this Confucian story of Lao Tzu the "founder" of Tao. As opposing concepts these complement one another and create  totality, but the totality created is a union of opposites. Thus, Tao, unlike Buddhism, is a practical path of wisdom crafted from the experiences of people in rising to the challenges of ordinary time and space.Tao is culturally compatible with Buddhism but is not the same. 

The reason nothing from Gurbani comes to mind may be the result of the proposition of opposites in the Tao.  The Tao depends on the resolution of opposites in a system that accepts  duality, seeks to equalize within duality,  and does not reach beyond duality. In Gurbani the dissolution of opposites and thus the dissolution of duality becomes a mark of wisdom.

ਇਕਸੁ ਤੇ ਹੋਇਓ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੯॥੨॥੩੬॥ 
eikas thae hoeiou ananthaa naanak eaekas maahi samaaeae jeeo ||9||2||36||
From oneness, He has brought forth the countless multitudes. O Nanak, they shall merge into the One once again. ||9||2||36||


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## Astroboy (Aug 1, 2009)

*Wu wei is a central concept in Taoism.* The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action". Its often expressed by the paradox wei wu wei, meaning "action without action" or "effortless doing". The practice and efficacy of wu wei are fundamental in Chinese thought, most prominently emphasized in Taoism. The goal of wu wei is alignment with Tao, revealing the soft and unseen power within all things.

Excerpts from Taoism and Art of Wing Chun By Adam Williss


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2009)

NamJap ji

I don't know if you find this link useful or appropriate in the thread. Wuwei Foundation 

See if it works. If not, delete it.


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## Astroboy (Aug 2, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur Ji,




> The goal of wu wei is alignment with Tao, revealing the soft and unseen power within all things.




Here's an article that caught my attention:-

Every living being is full of faith,  or he could not live.
Faith is in the atmosphere and we live by using it, just as a fish lives by using the  water. 
Faith springs eternal in every human breast, fed from the universal source. 
To talk  of one’s little faith or one’s much faith is like talking of the earth's squareness.
Every soul lives by faith and plenty of it. But he lives by faith in what? There’s the rub.
Until we emerge from a sense of materiality—and no one has as yet got more than his nose  
above these muddy waters— we live by faith in things seen, smelt, tasted, heard and felt.  
These are the only things we are familiar with; to them we pin our faith, and pride ourselves  
upon our good sense, reason and lack of “superstition.”
“I can't believe in anything unless I can see it” is our self-satisfied cry; “you can't fool  me with 
your religious hocus-pocus, nor with your rabbit's foot and horseshoe and four-leaved  clover; 
I can see no connection between a rabbit’s foot and your good luck, therefore I know  no connection exists; 
I can see no big God on a great white throne, consequently I know none  exists; show me your God; 
show me the string which connects the four-leaved clover to your  good luck and I’ll put my faith in it.”
The material one reckons without his Unseen Host. By and by the Unseen begins to juggle  with him. 
His beautiful plans, every step of which he could plainly see, are blown awry. He  can’t see why! 
The things in which he had such faith begin to totter and tumble about his ears.  He can’t see why! 
Reluctantly he begins to see that there are mighty forces he can’t see. His  whole beautiful material world 
begins to dance to strings he can’t see!
Ah, so there are things he can't see, hear, smell, taste or feel! They may be a fearful and  chaotic jumble; 
they seem to be; but they are there, after all his certainty that he could  see, smell, hear, taste 
and feel The Whole Thing.
And he begins to reach out toward these unseen things. He peers and peers into the darkness  and stillness. 
And as he peers his faiths gradually loosen their hold upon the old visible  things and begin to reach out 
into the darkness and silence.
He sends his faiths groping, groping, feeling their way through the Invisible, always  seeking the strings to which 
visible things have been dancing and tumbling.
At first all is darkness; but by and by faith gets its tentacles around Something Unseen;—ah, 
 there is Something which disposes what man proposes—an unseen, un-tasted, unheard, 
un-smelt,  unfelt Something.
A terrible Something it may be, but still a Something, all-powerful, all-present. 
He has sent  his feelers into the Invisible and touched God, the soul, the life-principle, 
which makes and  unmakes, gives and takes away all those little things to which he was wont to pin his faiths.
The next thing is to find out the nature of this mighty Something whose home is in the  Invisible. 
But how find out the nature of the Unseen? Not by touch, taste, smell, sight   or hearing—not at first anyway. 
But by its fruits you may know a tree to be good or bad.
By its fruits you may know the invisible powers to be beneficent or malefic. 
And the material  one is familiar with fruits, with things. He built such beautiful things himself, 
so he ought  to be a judge of the fruits of labor. The fruits of his labor were all good, he knows they were.  
If only the great Unseen had not spoiled them all! Oh, the labors of the Unseen brought 
his own  good efforts to naught—the Unseen must be a terrible and evil power; 
its fruits are destruction  of his own good buildings. He fears this Great Unseen Power to which 
his faiths are beginning  to pin themselves.
But wait: Good is beginning to rise from the ashes of his ruins. 
This so terrible calamity is  turning out a blessing! New and greater things are forming, 
to take the places of the lost  fruits! And they are good.
Oh, this Great Unseen works in terrifying mystery but its fruits are good.
Now he is ready to “come unto God.” He begins to see the un-seeable things, and his faiths  tendril them.
Those who would “come unto Him must believe that He is, and that 
He is a rewarder of them  that diligently seek Him.”
Those who would understand and feel and use the invisible forces 
must believe that they are,  and that they reward those who diligently seek to understand and use them.
The Unseen things move the visible world. The material one being pinned by his faiths to the  things of the world 
is moved as the world is moved. He is a mere puppet in the hands of the  Unseen powers.
As he looses the faiths which bound him to the world rack, and sends his faith tendrils into  the Unseen, 
he becomes one with the powers which pull the world-strings.
“Faith is the sub-stance (the underlying and creating principle) of things hoped for, 
the  evidence of things not seen.”
The material one’s faith is pinned to things already seen; therefore, his creative principle  is 
poured into the thing already created.
Then Life juggles and tumbles things until the material one’s faiths are torn loose from  their 
material moorings, and go feeling out into the Unseen for new things to cling to. 
When  the whole bunch of visible things has failed us; when houses, lands, money, friends, 
and even  fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters have gone back on us, what is there left to pin 
 our faiths to? And without something to have faith in how could we live at all?
We couldn’t live without faiths to steady us; witness the suicides and the deaths from  broken hearts.
And if all visible things have failed us, if our faiths are broken loose from fathers,  mothers, brothers, 
friends, houses and lands, where else can our faiths take hold again 
except  in the region of the Unseen?—the region where “the wind bloweth whither it listeth 
and thou  canst hear the sound thereof but canst not tell whence it cometh nor whither it goeth;” 
the  region of substance, of creative power.
It seems very terrible to have our faiths broken loose from fathers, mothers, brothers,  friends, 
houses and lands; but it is good for us, as time always proves.
Broken loose from the _effects_ of creative energy, our faiths reach out into the Unseen  and tendril 
the very energy itself. From a state of oneness with things we evolve a new being  at 
one with the creative power within things.
What are the unseen things to which our torn faiths begin to attach themselves? 
Our faith  itself is unseen, the sub-stance of things hoped for, the substantial evidence of things not  yet seen.
What do we hope for that we have not yet seen?
First of all we hope for peace—another of the substantial unseen things. 
We hope for love,  the most substantial of unseen things. 
Oh, if we had but peace and love we could count all  else well lost! 
And behold, by unseen faith tendrils our bruised faiths attach themselves  to the unseen substance of 
peace and love.
Wisdom is an unseen substance—our unseen faiths attach themselves to 
the unseen source of  wisdom. Thought is unseen; our faiths, torn loose from things, 
begin to reach out into the  unseen realm of thought. Ideals are unseen things. 
Our faiths, torn loose from the  already-realized, begin to tendril the unseen ideals, 
the race's ideals, the family ideals,  and lastly our individual ideals.
Our unseen faiths become one with these unseen ideals; and through these 
little faith  tendrils we begin literally to draw the ideal down into our physical being 
and out into  the visible world.
Through our faith tendrils the ideal is literally ex-pressed, pressed out into visibility.
When our faiths were attached to material things, the material things (being negative to  us) sucked us dry. 
Now our faith tendrils reach upward to the unseen ideal realm of real  substance (to which we are negative) 
and by the same law of dynamics it is we who draw the  life; draw it from the unseen realm of real life substance.
Of ourselves we could do nothing—the things to which our faiths attached us sucked us  dry of power, 
and the unseen powers finally tore us loose; but now that we are tendriled  by our faiths to the 
Unseen, “the Father” in us and through us doeth the works of rightness  that bring peace.
And behold, we are filled with the unseen power, and through our faith in the Unseen 
we  pass on the fruits of the spirit, which are “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, 
 meekness, faith, temperance.”
And being filled with the power of the Unseen we pass on the fruits of the spirit to fathers,  
mothers, brothers, friends, houses, lands; pass it on in every act of life and in every breath  we take.
We _breathe out_ that which, through our faith-tendrils, the Great Unseen _breathes into us_.
Then, behold, that which is written comes to pass:
_“Ye shall have an hundredfold more houses  and lands and fathers 
and mothers and brothers in this present time.”_ You shall have them to  use at will.
While you were _attached_ by your faiths to things _they_ used you; now you use them.
Pin your faiths to the Unseen things and let patience have her perfect work. 
So shall you  realize your heart’s full desire. Let things rock as they will; 
let facts be stubborn and  conditions hard if need be. Never mind them. 
To mind them is to pin your faiths to them.
_Mind the Unseen things_. Pin your faiths to your ideals.
Flout facts and hard conditions! Believe in the Unseen.
Train your faiths upward.
“Whatsoever ye desire believe that ye receive,” and you shall surely have it.
If it is a mushroom expect it in a night. If you desire a great oak give it time to grow. 
 In due time, perhaps in an hour when you least expect it, it will surely appear.
The one thing needful is to pin your little faiths to the Unseen Source of all things.
Believe in the great unseen part of yourself and the universal.

http://www.yourlifepower.com/life-power-substance-of-things.html


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## Astroboy (Aug 2, 2009)

*Tao Te Ching: Chapter 11*
    translated by Stephen Mitchell      

We join spokes together in a wheel,
    but it is the center hole
    that makes the wagon move. 
     We shape clay into a pot,
    but it is the emptiness inside
    that holds whatever we want. 
     We hammer wood for a house,
    but it is the inner space
     that makes it livable. 
     We work with being
    but non-being is what we use. 



....................................................


*Tao Te Ching: Chapter 11*
translated by Ursula K. Le Guin  

Thirty spokes
meet in the hub.
Where the wheel isn't
is where it's useful.
  Hollowed out,
 clay makes a pot.
Where the pot's not
is where it's useful.
  Cut doors and windows
to make a room.
Where the room isn't,
there's room for you.
  So the profit in what is
is in the use of what isn't.


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2009)

NamJap ji

That poem in red font is really a very interesting work. Worth studying because it has puzzles inside of a larger puzzle. It also seems to have some real ethical content. Thanks for that and more to think about.


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## Ozarks (Aug 7, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> The reason nothing from Gurbani comes to mind may be the result of the proposition of opposites in the Tao.  The Tao depends on the resolution of opposites in a system that accepts  duality, seeks to equalize within duality,  and does not reach beyond duality. In Gurbani the dissolution of opposites and thus the dissolution of duality becomes a mark of wisdom.



Narayanjot Ji,
If I may... I feel that the Tao does not seek a resolution but through wu wei allows the illusion of duality to prove itself by not remaining "out of balance" and becoming what is intended and harmony is the result. 

We tend to describe and understand things as have dual natures because we tend to be reactionary selfish creatures. One action may be viewed in totally opposite ways depending on the person viewing it. The wise person accepts that the thing happened and the reality of the situation at hand and does not view it from a personal/egotistical perspective. 

Cultivate harmony within yourself, and harmony becomes real;
Cultivate harmony within your family, and harmony becomes fertile;
Cultivate harmony within your community, and harmony becomes abundant;
Cultivate harmony within your culture, and harmony becomes enduring;
Cultivate harmony within the world, and harmony becomes ubiquitous.

Live with a person to understand that person;
Live with a family to understand that family;
Live with a community to understand that community;
Live with a culture to understand that culture;
Live with the world to understand the world.

How can I live with the world?
By accepting. 				
- Chapter 54 of the Tao Te Ching

I would like to also quote the final chapter of the Tao Te Ching. There, I believe, you will find a sentiment echoed by the Gurus and sought by the wise.

Honest people use no rhetoric;
Rhetoric is not honesty.
Enlightened people are not cultured;
Culture is not enlightenment.
Content people are not wealthy;
Wealth is not contentment.

So the sage does not serve himself;
The more he does for others, the more he is satisfied;
The more he gives, the more he receives.
Nature flourishes at the expense of no one;
So the sage benefits all men and contends with none.   				
- Chapter 81 of the Tao Te Ching


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## Astroboy (Aug 10, 2009)

Conquer with Inaction

Guys, I'll let out a secret. Conquer women with inaction works wonders for me. 
Earlier I fell for the chase because women will lure men to pursue them and play hard to get. 
Reverse the formula, first by having more self-control. Then work on your subtlety. 
Concentrate on your character, personality, knowledge, communication skills and have a sense of humor. 
Remember, women are turned on by men's smells like cologne, etc. (not overpowering smells but subtle smells).

Also consult the following link:-

Secrets of women - AskMen.com


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

NamJap ji

Sometimes I think that threads (even the ones that you start) become heavy, laden down with serious language and thought, and it is too much for you. Then you have to break out with some humor and clown around. This last offering is a good example of that. :}{}{}:

It is the silliest thing to include in a discussion of WuWei and Lao Tzu and the Tao, and curiously it also makes sense. :idea: A lot of fun reading it. What next?


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## spnadmin (Aug 10, 2009)

Anway,

“ The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody. ”      — Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on Inequality, 175

Reminds me of this

 "The more morals and taboos there are,
The more cruelty afflicts people;
The more guns and knives there are,
The more factions divide people;
The more arts and skills there are,
The more change obsoletes people;
The more laws and taxes there are,
The more theft corrupts people." 

From Conquer with Inaction (see link above)​


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 11, 2009)

I doubt this will add anything tom the discussion, but I want to write this.

A friend of mine, another Amritdhari Sikh, and I were discussing the topic of Sikhi and the Tao Te Ching.  Our conclusion was that the philosophies of both systems are very similar, but there is one huge difference.

Taoism doesn't have Naam.

And that makes all the difference.

Mai


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## Astroboy (Aug 11, 2009)

> It is the silliest thing to include in a discussion of WuWei and Lao Tzu and the Tao, and curiously it also makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now I come to the serious stuff and it is connected with Yin and Yang. And it's all about men and women. You're free to comment.

Here's the link about Female Tao (enjoy reading) :Chapter 11 : Gender-Inclusive Tao Te Ching : Seal Scripts, Commentary


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## Astroboy (Aug 11, 2009)

> Have you ever heard of the phrase "I need some breathing space please!"?


 Well this not only is true of women saying it but also men :-
In Punjabi -

YouTube - Peke ja ni Begum - Anwar Masood ( Must Watch )


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## Ozarks (Aug 11, 2009)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Taoism doesn't have Naam.



Mai Ji,
The way I see it the Tao shows "the Way" that things work out in accordance to the will/order that was laid down by the Creator/during the creation of the Created. It tends not to directly address the Creator, but instead address the apparent Will of the Creator. There are many correlations between the SGGS and the Tao Te Ching when delving into that Will and/or our role in it. The chapters of the Tao are bite size pieces of understanding the Will. Where as the SGGS, while confirming much of the Tao, is primarily concerned with bring harmony and understanding to seekers of the Creator.
The Tao shows us things we already know and have seen through a new light. It does not describe the light itself. That is not the way of the Tao as the it is said in the Tao the the Way that can be explained is not true. This is a parallel of where the SGGS states that no matter how hard you try you cannot describe the Creator. The Way and Waheguru are the same. (replace "Way" with "Waheguru" when reading the Tao and see what you think)   

The Tao Te Ching describes the apparent Will of the Creator and sets forth an understanding for the benefit to our life and thus to our soul, whereas the Naam becomes a representation of the Creator to our mind and sets forth a point of focus for the benefit of our soul and thus to our life.


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## spnadmin (Aug 11, 2009)

NamJap ji That was classic. images spoke louder than words for sure. P/S usually when a man says "I need space" he is getting ready to jump out of a relationship. Either literally or figuratively. Seems Mr. Masood was in it for the long haul though.


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## Ishna (Aug 27, 2011)

I hope the current sangat won't mind me resurrecting yet another old thread.

Jumping straight from Ozark ji's post above, I have discovered myself stuck in an infinite loop.

It seems that Tao is a description of Hukam. And previously I've heard that Hukam and Naam are synonomous... So does Tao in fact = Naam or have I got this all mixed up?

I'm inclined to say that Hukam (laws of creation) comes from Naam (Waheguru, Divine identity). But I'm only guessing.

There is no denying the striking similarities between concepts in the Tao Te Ching and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Verse 32 - translation by Jonathan Star
...
This world is nothing but the glory of Tao
expressed through different names and forms
One who sees the things of this world
as being real and self-existent
has lost sight of the truth
To him, every word becomes a trap
every thing becomes a prison

One who knows the truth
that underlies all things
lives in this world without danger
To him, every word reflects the universe
every moment brings enlightenment

Rivers and streams are born of the ocean
All creation is born of Tao
Just as all water flows back to become the ocean
All creation flows back to become Tao.


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## spnadmin (Aug 27, 2011)

This is brief, but I think you can see some important differences:



> Basic teachings and Beliefs of Taoism:Taoism, or "The Way," is the natural order, or the force that flows through all living things. Tao is less a Deity than transcendent reality; however, as Taoism in China is inextricably bound up with folk traditions, there are also a variety of minor deities, which are generally considered aspects of the Tao. Taoists seek equilibrium above all else, and many traditional practices, such as acupuncture or other forms of 'Chinese medicine' are founded on this principal.
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/taoism/453-taosim-an-introduction.html



This more in-depth discussion matches your thinking in many ways Ishna ji

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/taoism/35108-the-tao-of-englightenment.html


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