# Is Gurbani To Be Read Or Heard?



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 18, 2011)

This week marks four hundred years since the King James Bible was finished ,those who translated it did it so that the finished Bible would suit public reading or we can say they styled it for the ear. 

This made me think about how our _Gurbani seems to resonate when read aloud_ .I have read Gurbani silently but can’t help thinking there is something special about our Guru’s word when read out aloud and so heard by the ear.<?"urn:<img src=" />

It leads me to think<I> we should read it and hear it, (read it out loud), o</I>r we should atleast sing it out loud so that we may feel it properly. The Guru's went to great effort to make their Divine Poetry Rhyme and when something rhymes it is easy on the ears and not very relevant to silent reading


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## Harry Haller (Nov 18, 2011)

Spji, 

My take on this is that some people may find the resonating sound hypnotic, and find themselves in a state of mind that has nothing at all to do with the content. 

The same with singing, you can get lost in the music and the singing. 

Look at it this way, If life is a school, and the SGGS is our study book, what is the best way to absorb and understand the study material?

I suppose it makes it all a bit more 'fun' and palatable, but those studying to be doctors , I would imagine, concentrate and focus on the material, not the sound and resonance of the words. 

Do bear in mind we have a solemn duty to take an opposite view of each others posts brother swordfight


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 18, 2011)

> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our study book


 
Veer Ji I feel that our Guru's Divine Poetry should _invoke_ why study what has already been studied by the Guru?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 18, 2011)

Invoking sounds a bit Abrahamical, a bit Vedic, is not Sikhi a bit more pragmatic and realistic than chanting/singing for the purposes of invoking?

Although I have no problem with chanting/singing, personally I feel this is a compromise made for those that need a bit of mysticism in their lives. 

In my humble view, the correct path is one of study, pragmatic use of knowledge in daily life, and understanding of material contained, anything else is just fun and games


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Nov 18, 2011)

In answer to the thread title, Yes.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 18, 2011)

> is not Sikhi a bit more pragmatic and realistic than chanting/singing for the purposes of invoking?


 
Veer Ji It is a practical way of life but Religion has to have a spiritual aspect otherwise it's just a 'philosophia moral' (Ethics or a doctrine of duties).

Indi Ji please elaborate if you have time.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 18, 2011)

You are of course correct, sometimes I find myself reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as if I was reading Plato, or Hesse, I find the information and the advice enlightening, and in tandem with Guru's voice in my head. 

I think the spiritual aspect works two ways though, it can assist you in the message, but it can also detract you from the message, I think you will understand what I mean, if this thread follows the mechanics of your other threads, the last few posts  will undoubtedly prove you correct, as they always do peacesign


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 18, 2011)

> I find myself reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as if I was reading Plato, or Hesse


 
Veer Ji I've heard of sexually repressed people but it seems that we are a_ spiritually repressed people!_

I love poetry and the way words sound,in the hands of a _Divine Lyricist_ they become something more than what they seem,the speak to your Self. 

Try singing a Shabad aloud in punjabi ,try it with a Shabad that rhymes every line or every other line,you can't read it like you said ,it won't affect you properly.The atmosphere in a Gurdwara is created by that resonating,there is something at play which is more than just ink on paper.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 18, 2011)

It is meant to be read and SUNG! Well singing is very important. And I think doing Paath is to sing to yourself if you can.


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## ksandhu83 (Nov 18, 2011)

if you are only reading and not listening then you will not get the benefit. We need our mind to listen each word of gurbani carefully if doesn't matter if u r reading urself or listening from somebody. only important thing is to keep your mind in present time don't let him go in past or future thoughts. please read the importance of listening from japji sahib path ( suneya four poriyans) Guru ji has written 4 poriyans about importance of listening. Even kabir ji shared a secret "ulti ganga yaman milao" means the sound from where it is created bring it back to the same point through ears.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 18, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> This week marks four hundred years since the King James Bible was finished ,those who translated it did it so that the finished Bible would suit public reading or we can say they styled it for the ear.
> 
> This made me think about how our _Gurbani seems to resonate when read aloud_ .I have read Gurbani silently but can’t help thinking there is something special about our Guru’s word when read out aloud and so heard by the ear.<!--?"urn:
> 
> ...


Sinner veer ji what ever turns you on would be the answer.

I do believe there is value to both reading and listening with the need to understand both what is written and how it is said.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 18, 2011)

> there is value to both reading and listening with the need to understand both what is written and how it is said


 
Veer ji I think there is something deeper than what we call understanding,the content of much Gurbani deals with practices of the day,it is that we should wake upto to what the Truth is ,the specifics of a Gurbani is where most get themselves into analysis of details.

We should at times put aside our practical minds and try to feel our way to finding a subtle mind state, even if we fail it will still help us focus our Self on the real purpose of Gurbani which is to transport us,instead what transpires we somehow think on Gurbani line by line as if we are trying to get the real message out of it but I see this as a fictional work or effort of our minds,the boat should transport you to a plane.

It is a Boat Plane.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 18, 2011)

Sinner veer I like listening without understanding as much as the next person  It has its effect but I have not tried to verbalize it other than depending on what you listen to I feel peaceful, thoughtful, happy and ecstatic.

Guru ji could have composed it in Sanskrit in total and used complicated grammar undertones if they did not want us to understand.  This is not how Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is.  Attempts are made to repeat and use simple, day-to-day and familiar differing examples and scenarios to convey messages.  Many a times within same tonal undertones.  So just the sounds are not the only part.

I do want you to expand on "there is something deeper than what we call understanding".  I can relate that each one may take something different from the same shabad, if that is what you mean.  For me this is so because we are all different from each other in every instance of time.

On the following point,

"We should at times put aside our practical minds and try to feel our way to finding"

  ---- what makes you think most don't.  Show me a person who understands all renditions of gurbani or other items as intended by the composer and I will show you a fool, including myself.

Sinner veer I do want to hear your thoughts in case you are trying to compare the utility of "Gurbani Sangeet" versus "Gurbani Vichhar" as for some it may be apples to oranges in terms of sensory aspects though directed towards the same end.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 19, 2011)

> the utility of "Gurbani Sangeet" versus "Gurbani Vichhar"


 
Veer Ji both have utility, I used to listen to alot of Shabads on cassette and I was lucky that my Dad was into Vichar by Maskeen ji ,so I had access to his Box Set,
( I think it was of the full Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.)

In the last twenty years most people have had access to both Gurbani Sangeet and Vichhar from great exponents,a beautiful rendition must end and so must Vichhar,I don't think they are in competition and you can appreciate both. 

I guess I look for the purpose of Gurbani more than Gurbani itself ,just as If study stars in the night sky no doubt I will come to understand them well ,but instead I have taken to look upon the night sky so as to navigate this world and find my home.

Now the question is ,if the Word is the boat then _why should I navigate at_ _all?_


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 19, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *Scarlet Pimpernel*
> 
> Now the question is ,if the Word is the boat then _why should I navigate at_ _all?_


Sinner veer let us sectionalize the question.  _Navigation_ assumes some of the following,


Where we are
Where we want to go
Is it one way or round trip
What would it take to get there
Compass, sextant, etc.
Supplies
Contingencies
So what role would listening and reading be playing in the above?  For simplicity sake let us assume that there are supplies on each end and we only are looking at water travel in a boat so we don't need Harry ji's Land Rover.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 19, 2011)

I suppose there are different paths for different people, I think what SPji is trying to say is that by looking at the stars, or losing himself to a higher plane through Gurbani, enlightenment can be embraced through these higher planes,


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 19, 2011)

Gaveah, Sunneah..MANN RAKHEYEAH BHAO.........Gurbani has to be Practically ADOPTED in our Daily LIVES to change us...for the Better....Guur nanak ji Sang..and Sajjan Thuggh the serial killer transformed into Sajjan the SEWAK...thats Gurbani as I understand it. It wasnt Guur nanak Jis DEH//sreer..personlaity or whatever..it is the GURBANI..the SHABAD that transformed the THUGGH into SAJJAN. Today we are more into semantics..vocabulary..origin of this word and that word..reading..memorising..so many paaths so many akhand paaths ardasses etc etc..and FORGET or NEGLECT Gurbanis Primary Purpose to EFFECT CHANGES in us via ADOPTION of its TEACHINGS.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 19, 2011)

Ambarsaria Ji 
Very good breakdown,I like the compass especially,I love the boat analogy ,but mainly for the fact that _it should transport you_ ,the purpose of Gurbani is to realise that end. Studying Gurbani Shabad by Shabad is the intellectual approach ,I feel it makes you understand more but realising the message of Gurbani is addressed to my Self ,so I try to realise what Gurbani is rather than study it per se . 
I agree with Gyani ji that Gurbani if believed should bring a change,when Gurbani is really 'heard' it means with more than with just our ears.
Harry my Veer Ji Indeed if after vichar a plane is reached then it's great,but from what I see of vichar ,we are more or less unchanged, other than having more detailed understanding about this beautiful boat. Instead let us _take_ _this boat and_ _transport_ our_ mind-__Self._


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 19, 2011)

I hope the following is in scope,
Kansas - Dust In the Wind      - YouTube
Sat Sri Akal


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 19, 2011)

Veer ji 
_The wind can do nothing to us for it blows in his fear and just washes our clothes for us ._

I confess to all Spners that I understand only one tenth of Gurbani even though I can pronounce it ok,I use translation to contemplate ,when I speak the Guru's word I try to think that I'm saying one word only ,in my mind that is Gods name,I hope he recognises his own name.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 19, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer ji
> _The wind can do nothing to us for it blows in his fear and just washes our clothes for us ._


_Scarlet Pimpernel ji may be any life carried by wind has fear.  Fear perhaps is only a concept amongst some life forms.  Rest of the universe just is and just does.  Better not run into it as we won't relate.  The end of world as we know will happen as such in a battle of fear driven versus fearless.  For Example an atomic blast has no fear nor a comet speeding towards earth._

_I wonder if you had a chance to look at this post as I liked Hawkings presentation,_

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-euthanasia-mercy-killiing-3.html#post156585

We are just transformational animate to in-animate and so on.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 20, 2011)

> _I liked Hawkings presentation_


 
Veer ji he is a genius 'there is nothing older than the Universe', what he meant I think is time in the Universe is measured from the Big Bang, I'm more Panentheistic,so I believe God is not just the expanse of matter that is just clay not the Potter .


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## ksandhu83 (Nov 21, 2011)

ਏਕੁ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਕਥਾ  ਵੀਚਾਰੀ  ॥ 
एकु सबदु जितु कथा वीचारी ॥ 
Ėk sabaḏ jiṯ kathā vīcẖārī. 
I contemplate the sermon of the Shabad, the Word of the One God. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਅਗਨਿ  ਨਿਵਾਰੀ  ॥੪੪॥ 
गुरमुखि हउमै अगनि निवारी ॥४४॥ 
Gurmukẖ ha▫umai agan nivārī. ||44|| page 943
The Gurmukh puts out the fire of egotism. ||44|| 




ਲਿਖੇ  ਬਾਝਹੁ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਬੋਲਿ  ਬੋਲਿ  ਗਵਾਈਐ  ॥ 
लिखे बाझहु सुरति नाही बोलि बोलि गवाईऐ ॥ 
Likẖe bājẖahu suraṯ nāhī bol bol gavā▫ī▫ai. 
Without pre-ordained destiny, understanding is not attained; talking and babbling, one wastes his life away. 

ਜਿਥੈ  ਜਾਇ  ਬਹੀਐ  ਭਲਾ  ਕਹੀਐ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਲਿਖਾਈਐ  ॥ 
जिथै जाइ बहीऐ भला कहीऐ सुरति सबदु लिखाईऐ ॥ 
Jithai jā▫e bahī▫ai bẖalā kahī▫ai suraṯ sabaḏ likẖā▫ī▫ai. page 566
Wherever you go and sit, speak well, and write the Word of the Shabad in your consciousness. 





ਹਰਿ  ਆਪੇ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਧੁਨਿ  ਆਪੇ  ॥ 
हरि आपे सबदु सुरति धुनि आपे ॥ 
Har āpe sabaḏ suraṯ ḏẖun āpe. page 165
The Lord Himself is the Word of the Shabad. He Himself is the awareness, attuned to its music. 
ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮਿ  ਮਨੁ  ਬੇਧਿਆ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਕਿ  ਕਰੀ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
राम नामि मनु बेधिआ अवरु कि करी वीचारु ॥ 
Rām nām man beḏẖi▫ā avar kė karī vīcẖār. 
My mind is pierced through by the Name of the Lord. What else should I contemplate? 

ਸਬਦ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਊਪਜੈ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਰਾਤਉ  ਸੁਖ  ਸਾਰੁ  ॥ 
सबद सुरति सुखु ऊपजै प्रभ रातउ सुख सारु ॥ 
Sabaḏ suraṯ sukẖ ūpjai parabẖ rāṯa▫o sukẖ sār. page 62
Focusing your awareness on the Shabad, happiness wells up. Attuned to God, the most excellent peace is found. 



Sunn samāḏẖ sacẖe gẖar bārā. 
And then, one dwells with the True Lord in His celestial home, the Primal State of Absorption in Deepest Samaadhi. 

Nānak nirmal nāḏ sabaḏ ḏẖun sacẖ rāmai nām samā▫iḏā. ||17||5||17||  page 1038
O Guru Nanak, the immaculate  sound current of the Naad, and the Music of the Shabad resound; one  merges into the True Name of the Lord. 
Govinḏ parīṯ sankāḏik uḏẖāre. page 1129
Love of the Lord of the Universe saved Sanak and his brother, the sons of Brahma. 

Rām nām sabaḏ bīcẖāre. ||1|| 
They contemplated the Word of the Shabad, and the Name of the Lord. ||1|| 


Jis naḏar kare so▫ī sacẖ lāgai rasnā rām ravījai.
One who is blessed with the Lord's favor is attuned to the Truth; with his tongue, he chants the Lord's Name.


Anṯar bāhar bẖagṯī rāṯe sacẖ nām liv lāgī. page 570
Inwardly and outwardly, they are imbued with devotion, and they enshrine love for the True Name.


Sacẖai sabaḏ sacẖ samā▫e. ||1|| page 560
Through the Shabad, the True Word of  God, one  merges in the True Lord. ||1||


Gur kai sabaḏ ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯū sacẖ lagī pi▫ār. ||1|| rahā▫o. page 994
Meditate on the Word of the Guru's Shabad; focus lovingly on the Truth. ||1||Pause||


Anḏar viḏẖā sacẖ nā▫e bāhar bẖī sacẖ diṯẖom. page966
The True Name has pierced the nucleus of my self deep within. Outside, I see the True Lord as well.


Ŧarai guṇ metai sabaḏ vasā▫e ṯā man cẖūkai ahankāro. page 944
Eradicating the three qualities, he enshrines the Shabad within, and then, his mind is rid of egotism. 

Anṯar bāhar eko jāṇai ṯā har nām lagai pi▫āro. 
Inside and out, he knows the One Lord alone; he is in love with the Name of the Lord. 



Saḏā jan nirmal mail na lāgai sacẖ nām cẖiṯ lā▫ī. ||2|| page 1333 
The humble beings are forever immaculate; no filth ever sticks to them. They focus their consciousness on the True Name. ||2|| 
Nāvai anḏar ha▫o vasāŉ nā▫o vasai man ā▫e. ||5|| page 55 
I dwell deep within the Name; the Name has come to dwell within my mind. ||5|| 

Bājẖ gurū gubār hai bin sabḏai būjẖ na pā▫e. 
Without the Guru, there is only pitch darkness; without the Shabad, understanding is not obtained. 


Gur sabaḏ ḏiṛāvai rang si▫o bin kirpā la▫i▫ā na jā▫e. page 65
The Guru has lovingly implanted the Word of His Shabad within me. Without His Grace, it cannot be attained. 


Guṇ sangrahi a▫ugaṇ sabaḏ jalā▫e. page 222 
Through the Word of the Shabad, merits are gathered in, and demerits are burned away. 



Gurmukẖ nām paḏārath pā▫e. ||6|| 
The Gurmukh obtains the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||6|| 
Asaŉkẖ kėhahi sir bẖār ho▫e. 
Even to call them countless is to carry the weight on your head. 

Akẖrī nām akẖrī sālāh.  page 4
From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.
Akẖrī gi▫ān gīṯ guṇ gāh. 
From the Word, comes spiritual wisdom, singing the Songs of Your Glory. 
Sacẖ nām karṯā purakẖ eh raṯnā kẖāṇī. page 319
True is the Naam, the Name of the Creator, the Primal Being. It is the mine of precious jewels.     
 



Nānak nām salāhi saḏā ṯū sacẖai sabaḏ samāhi. ||4||4||page 1334
O Guru Nanak, praise the Naam, the Name of the Lord forever, and merge in the True Word of the Shabad. ||4||4|| 



Amriṯ ras pī▫ā gur sabḏī ham nām vitahu kurbān. ||1|| page 1335
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, I drink in the Ambrosial Essence; I am a sacrifice to the Naam. ||1||


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Ksandhu83 ji what are your own thoughts or understanding in reference to what you have quoted above.

That sometimes helps others to clarify and relate.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 21, 2011)

> ਲਿਖੇ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥
> लिखे बाझहु सुरति नाही बोलि बोलि गवाईऐ ॥
> Likẖe bājẖahu suraṯ nāhī bol bol gavā▫ī▫ai.
> Without pre-ordained destiny, understanding is not attained; talking and babbling, one wastes his life away.
> ...


 
Veera which of these two practices did we do?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Sorry veer I do not respond to tuks.  I went to Srigranth.org to download and check whole shabad.  It is pretty long and I am busy doing something else.  I might respond to later.  

If you feel my post one above yours was out of line that is fine but it really was a request since when one posts a shabad usually there are thoughts and such can be very valuable to share.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ksandhu83 (Nov 21, 2011)

these tuks from different shabads answers lot of questions and are very much related to importance of understanding of shabad while reading and hearing.


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