# Kabir Ji Bani Ang 477



## Luckysingh (Jul 19, 2014)

This shabad was recently quoted in another thread.
I think it would be interesting to discuss and interpret the element of 'mystery' attached to the message.


Ang 477

ਆਸਾ ॥
Aasaa ||
Aasaa:

ਫੀਲੁ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਬਲਦੁ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਕਊਆ ਤਾਲ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥
Feel Rabaabee Baladh Pakhaavaj Kooaa Thaal Bajaavai ||
The elephant is the guitar player, the ox is the drummer, and the crow plays the cymbals.

ਪਹਿਰਿ ਚੋਲਨਾ ਗਦਹਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਭੈਸਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
Pehir Cholanaa Gadhehaa Naachai Bhaisaa Bhagath Karaavai ||1 I
Putting on the skirt, the donkey dances around, and the water buffalo performs devotional worship. ||1||

ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਕਕਰੀਆ ਬਰੇ ਪਕਾਏ ॥
Raajaa Raam Kakareeaa Barae Pakaaeae ||
The Lord, the King, has cooked the cakes of ice,

ਕਿਨੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੈ ਖਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kinai Boojhanehaarai Khaaeae ||1|| Rehaao ||
But only the rare man of understanding eats them. ||1||Pause||

ਬੈਠਿ ਸਿੰਘੁ ਘਰਿ ਪਾਨ ਲਗਾਵੈ ਘੀਸ ਗਲਉਰੇ ਲਿਆਵੈ ॥
Baith Singh Ghar Paan Lagaavai Ghees Galourae Liaavai ||
Sitting in his den, the lion prepares the betel leaves, and the muskrat brings the betel nuts.

ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਸਰੀ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਛੂਆ ਸੰਖੁ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
Ghar Ghar Musaree Mangal Gaavehi Kashhooaa Sankh Bajaavai ||2||
Going from house to house, the mouse sings the songs of joy, and the turtle blows on the conch-shell. ||2||

ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ ਬੀਆਹਨ ਚਲਿਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਮੰਡਪ ਛਾਏ ॥
Bans Ko Pooth Beeaahan Chaliaa Sueinae Manddap Shhaaeae ||
The son of the sterile woman goes to get married, and the golden canopy is spread out for him.

ਰੂਪ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬੇਧੀ ਸਸੈ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਏ ॥੩॥
Roop Kanniaa Sundhar Baedhhee Sasai Singh Gun Gaaeae ||3||
He marries a beautiful and enticing young woman; the rabbit and the lion sing their praises. ||3||

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਕੀਟੀ ਪਰਬਤੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
Kehath Kabeer Sunahu Rae Santhahu Keettee Parabath Khaaeiaa ||
Says Kabeer, listen, O Saints - the ant has eaten the mountain.

ਕਛੂਆ ਕਹੈ ਅੰਗਾਰ ਭਿ ਲੋਰਉ ਲੂਕੀ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਨਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੬॥
Kashhooaa Kehai Angaar Bh Loro Lookee Sabadh Sunaaeiaa ||4||6||
The turtle says, ""I need a burning coal, also."" Listen to this _mystery _of the Shabad. ||4||6||


----------



## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2014)

the world is a theatre and its all pretty irrelevant. 
Be true to yourself, be content with what you have, forget what everyone else is up to, stay on the path of truth.


----------



## arshi (Jul 20, 2014)

Lucky ji

Bhagat ji depicts a couple of scenarios, but the central idea here, of course, lies in the Rahau pankti. The concluding pankti also helps in deciphering the meaning of the shabad.

I think the English translation here is inaccurate, _kakree-aa,_ here, refers to the Punjabi term _khakhree-aa_, bitter, sometimes poisonous fruit - bulbs of a plant, e.g. the likes of cactus plant (cactus bulbs) and *not ice*. I, as always, stand corrected.

*Our conscious mind (mann) is often likened to a mule – stubborn, obstinate, foolish. However, a humble mind will often win over staunch enemies. *

_kahat kabeer sunhu ray santahu keetee parbat khaa-i-aa._
Says Kabeer, pay heed O devotees, how the humble ant has devoured the mountain (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 477).

*Humility is always the strength of the human mind and not the weakness as many assume. The Lord (WaheGuru) can infuse courage into a humble creature such as an ant to take on an army.*

_neekee keeree meh kal raakhai. bhasam karai laskar kot laakhai (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 285)._

Like Harry ji rightly says, we must make an effort to live truthfully but we must first be truthful to ourselves and that can only be done by constantly instructing our minds to be humble; ego, egotism, me-ism has a habit of creeping in through the tiniest of pinholes.

Kind Regards
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 20, 2014)

Arshi Jee

Permit me to make slight correction in understanding the rahao pankti. 

ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਕਕਰੀ ਆਬਰੇ ਪਕਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਨੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੈ ਖਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

You will notice that whole sabd refers to working of several animals and their instinct but rahao is referring to 'auk' plant which looks like mango but cannot be eaten as it is tasteless/bitter. Kabir is addressing to God that this 'auk' plant can be sweetened like mango just in case one realizes the technique, in other word, can give it a rebirth without actually plucking it from the tree. Similarly animals instincts within us can be transformed to merge with God without actually physical death. If we don't understand this then, 'ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਧੂਏ ਕਾ ਪਹਾਰ ॥

Likewise on concluding pankti, 'kahat kabeer sunhu ray santahu keetee parbat khaa-i-aa. 
Now Kabeer is not referring to saints or devotee but instructing to 'indray and gian indray' of his manh as first person that since elephant is symbol of ego thus cannot achieve anything whereas ant as a symbol of humility, 'ਹਰਿ ਹੈ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਚੁਨੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਬੁਝਾਈ ਕੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੩੮॥ The God is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up. Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238|| (an idiom)

Why I interpreted, 'sunhu ray santahu as indray and gian indray of manh because at other place kabeer is addressing, 'ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਤਰਿ ਜਾਂਹਿਗਾ ॥੩॥੧॥ here which sadh sanghat he is asking saint to join.


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 20, 2014)

Perhaps the elephant and the ox symbolize the wandering mind:

Page 159, GGS


> ਗਉੜੀ  ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੩  ॥
> गउड़ी गुआरेरी महला ३ ॥
> Ga▫oṛī gu▫ārerī mėhlā 3.
> Gauree Gwaarayree, Third Mehl:
> ...


Page 386, GGS


> ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥
> ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> ...


The crow symbolizes someone who has not enshrined the divine within their mind. 

Page 123, GGS


> ਮਾਝ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੩  ॥
> माझ महला ३ ॥
> Mājẖ mėhlā 3.
> Maajh, Third Mehl:
> ...


The donkey symbolizes someone with low intellect, but a lot of pride:

Page 1246, GGS


> ਮਃ  ੧  ॥
> मः १ ॥
> Mėhlā 1.
> First Mehl:
> ...


That's all I got so far...


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 20, 2014)

> ਆਸਾ ॥
> Aasaa ||
> Aasaa:
> 
> ...


I take it that Kabir ji attended a wedding, and he is describing the people there according to the traits that they share with certain animals. 

The first two lines describe a guitar player, a drummer, a cymbal player and a dancing girl. 

He calls the guitar player an elephant because of his wandering mind. He calls the drummer an ox for the same reason. The cymbal player is called a crow because he does not remember the divine. The dancing girl is a donkey because she appears proud, even though she has little intellect. 

The ant eating the mountain symbolizes people consuming more than they need. The turtle says that he needs a burning coal too. This means that what is being consumed is material. It will turn to dust, just as all material things turn to dust. 

The mice who go from house to house singing songs of joy are the people who show up to homes, where a wedding is taking place, to sing songs. I remember I went to a family wedding in India and a group of singers showed up to sing songs at our house. These are the mice Kabir ji speaks of. 

"The son of the sterile woman goes to get married". The woman is sterile because the seed of the Naam cannot grow in her mind.


----------



## arshi (Jul 20, 2014)

Sahni ji

As mentioned earlier Kabir Ji uses two scenarios, one of _kakree-aa_ (_khakhree-aa_) and the other of a wedding to drive home his message.

My main purpose of the earlier post was to point out the inaccurateinterpretation, in my opinion, of _kakree-aa_ as marbles of ice and that _kakree-aa_ refers to _khakhree-aa,_ which Prof Sahib Singh ji translates as Akk (_calotropis proceria or gigantean)._ I honestly cannot recall the general English term, but since the term akk is not actually used, this could be any other similar plant, bitter, repulsive and insipid in taste. In another shabad, Guru Nanak Ji used the leaves of the _simbal_ tree, the fruit of which is tasteless and repulsive despite the height of the tree - its humility that counts i.e. humility is the hallmark of goodness. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ). Similarly the red/orange bulbs (appearing like mangoes) on a cactus plant are not edible. 

Our minds without humility are like these bitter _khakhree-aas_. The _mann_ can only be nurtured by Guru’s message in restraining our negative traits, Kabir Ji gives this analogy (of _khakhree-aa_)to illustrate that with humility and execution of Guru’s message the _mann_ can be sweetened (with the nectar of Bani) into a sweet mango.

As for the term ‘_santahu’ I_ concur with Prof Sahib Singh ji as referring to _‘sant jano’_. Kabir Ji ends many of his shabads with similar style. The term _’saadho’_ is also found several times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It was quite common in those days that travelling sages like Kabir Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji came across _‘sant mandlis’_ (group of holy men) and addressed them. Therefore, ‘_santahu’ _referring to devotees appeals to me. These devotees also have issues with their _indrees_, just as we individually struggle to control and discipline them. At the end of the day it is all about educating our minds and keeping our _indrees_ in check.

_raam simar pachhutaahigaa man._ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1106 - 6)
Kabir Ji is instructing his mind (more like our minds) to keep WaheGuru in rememberance, otherwise we will come to regret it.

The last pankti is the one you have quoted.

_kahat kabeer sunhu ray santahu saaDhsangat tar jaaNhigaa. _(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1106)

Kabeer says, listen _sant jano_, _bhagat jano_ – i.e. those attached to Ram, Har, Parmatma, WaheGuru), you will be blessed and saved in the company of the holy – i.e. other seekers. True, Kabeer Ji is addressing his own mind but also the minds of those who care to listen to him, who were often simple folk, unaware of the intricacies of languages and interpretations.

*Sahni ji, I am always hesitant to question the wisdom of enlightened minds like yourself. *This is what I sincerely believe but I always stand corrected. Time permitting, I would revisit the shabad and do a translation of the whole shabad.

Best regards.
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 20, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I take it that Kabir ji attended a wedding, and he is describing the people there according to the traits that they share with certain animals.
> 
> The first two lines describe a guitar player, a drummer, a cymbal player and a dancing girl.
> 
> ...


Hope you don't mind but your assertion that Kabir ji attended a wedding, and he is describing the people there according to the traits that they share with certain animals looks to me bit weird as it contradicts the pankti 'bura bhala ko kis nu kahiye saglai jee tumarai, gurmukh aap pachania bura n dissai koi and hum nahi changai bura nahi koe.

While reflecting upon rahao that if this bitter kakri can be sweetened like mango and is questioning, 'ਕਿਨੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੈ ਖਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ only those who realizes can taste its sweet essence of divine, to me it looks this sabd is very revolutionary and is *referring to rebirth.* and kabeer is giving us a new direction that, ' ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ਸਿਆਹੁ ॥ dirt of pashu and pankhi birti had accumulated to the extent that no amount of logic realizes the presence of these animals and teachs us a techique to remove the filth. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 651. (over janam janam is not different reincarnation but our shortcoming over short comings of this life.

waiting for others understnading and will try to interpret tommorrow


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 20, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Hope you don't mind but your assertion that Kabir ji attended a wedding, and he is describing the people there according to the traits that they share with certain animals looks to me bit weird as it contradicts the pankti 'bura bhala ko kis nu kahiye saglai jee tumarai, gurmukh aap pachania bura n dissai koi and hum nahi changai bura nahi koe.



Hello japjisahib04 ji,

I don't mind. "bura bhala ko kis nu kahiye saglai jee tumarai, gurmukh aap pachania bura n dissai koi and hum nahi changai bura nahi koe.' These panktis don't appear in the shabadh being discussed, so I am assuming you have provided them to demonstrate that a gurmukh wouldn't call anyone a bad name. I agree with you to an extent, but gurbani repeatedly demonstrates that the gurus and bhagats had no sympathy for those who did not remember the divine or practiced hypocrisy. The earlier shabadhs I provided demonstrate this. I can provide more: 

Page 239, GGS


> ਗਉੜੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥
> गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
> Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
> Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
> ...




Now for the rahao tuk you mentioned:



> ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਕਕਰੀਆ ਬਰੇ ਪਕਾਏ ॥
> Raajaa Raam Kakareeaa Barae Pakaaeae ||
> The Lord, the King, has cooked the cakes of ice,
> 
> ...




Kakareeaa Barae has been translated to mean cakes of ice. I believe "cakes of ice" is describing a dessert (ice cream). Kukareea (as you and arshi ji have described) is a bitter fruit. This dessert tastes bitter but the wise man is able to extract the sweetness (barae). 

I allude to the phrase "The truth is a bitter pill to swallow". Even though the Truth is sweet to the wise man, it is bitter to swallow. 

By relishing this bitter Truth, the wise man appreciates the scene around him. 

This is what I gather


----------



## Luckysingh (Jul 20, 2014)

There is no doubt as Sherdil and Arshi have both mentioned the scenario of a wedding and it's celebrations.

We know that the animals are mentions to our mind like qualities of which we may all have some varying degrees of...for instance, a lion like mann quality, a turtle like mann, the elephant like ego-mind..etc..etc..

Bearing all this in mind, I currently have the below detailed understanding so far.....(this is in addition to above contributions)

ਆਸਾ ॥
Aasaa ||
ਫੀਲੁ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਬਲਦੁ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਕਊਆ ਤਾਲ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥
Feel Rabaabee Baladh Pakhaavaj Kooaa Thaal Bajaavai ||
The elephant is the guitar player, the ox is the drummer, and the crow plays the cymbals.
_*Elephant*_= Drunken ego mind that is often compared to the_* 'giant'*_ of ego we have with our minds...However, now this gigantic mind that always thinks _'grande'_....is actually plucking the smaller precisive strings of the rabaab.
The_*Ox* _that responds and works in some direction towards what it's getting *beat with-(a stick), on the other hand is now beating a drum*
The *Crow *wanders in it's _*own rythym*_ of direction thirsty for it's clever and selfish appetite, is now *playing the taal in*_* rhythm* _with the music and maintaining a flow of tempo.
　
　
ਪਹਿਰਿ ਚੋਲਨਾ ਗਦਹਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਭੈਸਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
Pehir Cholanaa Gadhehaa Naachai Bhaisaa Bhagath Karaavai ||1||
Putting on the skirt, the donkey dances around, and the water buffalo performs devotional worship. ||1||
The stubborn and stupid *donkey *(like our mind), is now decorated and dancing in tune to the lord. 
In vedic mythology, the* 'buffalo'* *is not considered sacred* unlike the cow. In fact, the God of death-Yamraj, is said to ride a buffalo. ...Kabirji has turned this around to say that even the _*'un-sacred' buffalo*_ is now performing worship, just like the _un-sacred qualities_ we may have in our minds.
ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਕਕਰੀਆ ਬਰੇ ਪਕਾਏ ॥
Raajaa Raam Kakareeaa Barae Pakaaeae ||
The Lord, the King, has cooked the cakes of ice,
ਕਿਨੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੈ ਖਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kinai Boojhanehaarai Khaaeae ||1|| Rehaao ||
But only the rare man of understanding eats them. ||1||Pause||
The bitter/poisonous to the eye 'barae' are given before us by the Lord. But only the rare spiritually awakened move forward to taste, understand and experience them in order to experience the sweetness and nectar of amrit bani.
_The Mann that was a sour as akk_ or the _mann that thought devotion, naam jap, simran, worship would give futile taste of sourness_,.....that mann will never understand because of the refusal to _taste the sweet nectar of amrit and jap_.
　
ਬੈਠਿ ਸਿੰਘੁ ਘਰਿ ਪਾਨ ਲਗਾਵੈ ਘੀਸ ਗਲਉਰੇ ਲਿਆਵੈ ॥
Baith Singh Ghar Paan Lagaavai Ghees Galourae Liaavai ||
Sitting in his den, the lion prepares the betel leaves, and the muskrat brings the betel nuts.
_Lion like mann is the quality that doesn't get tamed,_ runs around wildly and fiercely dominating the territory....etc.. Now, this same singh like quality is humbly preparing and serving food.

ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਸਰੀ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਛੂਆ ਸੰਖੁ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
Ghar Ghar Musaree Mangal Gaavehi Kashhooaa Sankh Bajaavai ||2||
Going from house to house, the mouse sings the songs of joy, and the turtle blows on the conch-shell. ||2||
The mouse quality of the Mann is the *mouse that gnaws away towards it's time end and death.* Man-like mouse goes gnawing from house to house, place to place consuming and eating away into valuable time(kal).....soon the end of time comes whilst man is still in the process and not settled. ........._Now, the mouse mind is *NOT using it's mouth to chew and gnaw away* but instead it's *using it's mouth and tongue to Jap and sing the praises of waheguru.*_
The turtle like Mind abandons it's fear of outside world and instead of hiding in it's shell, it blows the conch-shell horn in confidence to call the attention.

ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ ਬੀਆਹਨ ਚਲਿਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਮੰਡਪ ਛਾਏ ॥
Bans Ko Pooth Beeaahan Chaliaa Sueinae Manddap Shhaaeae ||
The son of the sterile woman goes to get married, and the golden canopy is spread out for him.
ਰੂਪ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬੇਧੀ ਸਸੈ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਏ ॥੩॥
Roop Kanniaa Sundhar Baedhhee Sasai Singh Gun Gaaeae ||3||
He marries a beautiful and enticing young woman; the rabbit and the lion sing their praises. ||3||
　
_*Sterile woman is Maya*_ ?.....maybe, since we, *the son/product think that we are product of maya, but maya itself cannot be the maker !*
The _*''rabbit and lion''*_ is a very old indian story about a rabbit that knows the reflection of a lion in it's own eyes, will be it's death (since foolish lion can see itself in the eyes of rabbits). But the lion gets taken to a well by the rabbit and it sees it's own reflection and goes to attack it, only to end up at the bottom of the well.
_Kabirji is telling us that even the fools and clever ones are together singing the praises_.
　
ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਕੀਟੀ ਪਰਬਤੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
Kehath Kabeer Sunahu Rae Santhahu Keettee Parabath Khaaeiaa ||
Says Kabeer, listen, O Saints - the ant has eaten the mountain.
The humble ant has achieved the impossible and attained the unmeasurable waheguru.

ਕਛੂਆ ਕਹੈ ਅੰਗਾਰ ਭਿ ਲੋਰਉ ਲੂਕੀ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਨਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੬॥
Kashhooaa Kehai Angaar Bh Loro Lookee Sabadh Sunaaeiaa ||4||6||
The turtle says, ""I need a burning coal, also."" Listen to this mystery of the Shabad. ||4||6||
The turtle-mann _now wants the warmness of Naam(the burning coal) as opposed to shying away under the shell, into cool water, and away from sangat. _It wants to be in the outer company of sadh sangat and feel it's warmth. It wants to _jap _with the rest of them.
Also, '_*'angaar'*_ means the ember, after fire, burnt hot coals........This can also imply that *AFTER *we (sangat) have burned the poorer qualities of our mann, then it becomes welcoming and pleasing to *ALL.*



_On a very deeper esoteric note, the sounds of conch-shell, rabaab, drums and cymbals...etc are all encountered before anhad shabad is fully manifest.0_


----------



## Luckysingh (Jul 20, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> While reflecting upon rahao that if this bitter kakri can be sweetened like mango and is questioning, 'ਕਿਨੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੈ ਖਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ only those who realizes can taste its sweet essence of divine, to me it looks this sabd is very revolutionary and is *referring to rebirth.* and kabeer is giving us a new direction that, ' ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ਸਿਆਹੁ ॥ dirt of pashu and pankhi birti had accumulated to the extent that no amount of logic realizes the presence of these animals and teachs us a techique to remove the filth. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 651. (over janam janam is not different reincarnation but our shortcoming over short comings of this life.


 
I'm afraid I don't comprehend or catch the topic of rebirth in this shabad.
Everyday is a new day, and every morning should be the begiining of a mental rebirth.
Please explain if you mean any different from this....



> Likewise on concluding pankti, 'kahat kabeer sunhu ray santahu keetee parbat khaa-i-aa.
> Now Kabeer is not referring to saints or devotee but instructing to *'indray and gian indray'* of his manh as first person that since elephant is symbol of ego thus cannot achieve anything whereas ant as a symbol of humility, 'ਹਰਿ ਹੈ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਚੁਨੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਬੁਝਾਈ ਕੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੩੮॥ The God is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up. Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238|| (an idiom)


 
I really can't understand or see how 'gyan or karam indries' have any particular highlight or weight in this shabad.
I understand BOTH Gyan and Karam indries as the means by which we experience MAYA. We don't experience waheguru through them but we can utilise them towards that direction to certain extents.


*Gyan indries*= the 5 senses (Taste,smell,sight,touch and hearing)
*Karam indries*= the 5 motor functions (hands,legs,mouth,eyes and ears)

Gyan indries lead to gyan, and Karam indries are what dictate our karams and actions.
Is this what you understand by these terms ?


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2014)

Gurmat fundamental teaching is, 'ਪੂਰਨ ਭਗਵਾਨੈ ਅਉਗਣੁ ਕੋ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥. You will see guru sahib throughout have called themselves only kooker, lowliest and didn't even consider merits and demrits of others. If you closely  look at those sabd you have referred you will see whereever bhagats have listed words like saakat, or faithless or anything else, they are addressing to their own manh and not others.

Now coming back to sabd in discussion, in that sequence bhagat Ravidas on page 486 is saying, 'ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਮੀਨ ਭ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਪਤੰਗ ਕੁੰਚਰ ਏਕ ਦੋਖ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਅਸਾਧ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੇਤਕ ਆਸ ॥੧॥ The deer, the fish, the bumble bee, the moth and the elephant are destroyed, each for a single defect then what about myself who is filled with the five incurable vices - what hope is there for me to be transformed? ||1||. 

I estimate there must be about 20 shabads, some of which you have listed above, wherein guru sahib or bhagats have used animal or birds imagery and where a literal reading leaves us flabbergasted and one wonders what our Gurus or Bhagat intended to convey. Surely there is a deeper meaning to the revelations in Gurbani besides the literal. To understand shabads like these, it is necessary to keep in mind a few pointers. Firstly, the overall teachings of Gurbani must be kept in mind, like, Naam, Satsang, Guru, God, Truth, etc. Then aid must be taken from other shabads which have used for example the animal imagery. 

While reflecting upon the rahao, I understand Guru sahib is picturizing the animal instincts within me in this sabd. After, 'ਕਿਨੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੈ ਖਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ -The birtee of elephant(lust), the ox(wild nature) and crow(slandering or babbling)  all which I host inside has now been tamed and now same have made my life worth and colorful and they are not bothering me anymore but have now made me entered into bliss. ਪਹਿਰਿ ਚੋਲਨਾ ਗਦਹਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਭੈਸਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ The donkey, which used to resides inside of me, now wears the cloak of love and dances to the music of goodness. My inner buffalo now understands and inspires the growth of devotional worship in me.


----------



## Luckysingh (Jul 21, 2014)

Yes, but it doesn't explain how rebirths, gyan and karam indries ....fits into the equation ?:whatzpointsing:


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Yes, but it doesn't explain how rebirths, gyan and karam indries ....fits into the equation ?:whatzpointsing:


First of all let us see whether bhagat jee is narrating the scenerio of wedding and traits of baratis or his own merger with God and end of avan jaan and rebirth from 2nd stanza of this sabd:

ਬੈਠਿ ਸਿੰਘੁ ਘਰਿ ਪਾਨ ਲਗਾਵੈ ਘੀਸ ਗਲਉਰੇ ਲਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਸਰੀ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਛੂਆ ਸੰਖੁ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 

Since my manh has learned how to sweeten the bitter kakri, in continuation to first stanza, Kabir jee is telling how other negative traits are transformed, elevated and in this life itself he has achieved salvation (jivan mukti) thus it ends avan javan (pal pal marna) and rebirth. He says the arrogant lion which once lived within me, now  treats all over everyone as guests with utmost hospitality and humbleness. The selfish birtee (muskrat) now brings betel nuts and distributes them freely with an attitude of selfless service and sacrifice to humanity. Gheese stands for trishna rupee birtee.  Going from house to house, the mice is nibbling which is metaphor of nine organs of our body who are crumbling/decaying our life span but  now have filled my body with the nectar of hyms.  My inner turtle (symbol of cowardice) now blows boldly on the conch shell. His fear has demised and is overflow with truth,  he now speaks overtly.

ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ ਬੀਆਹਨ ਚਲਿਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਮੰਡਪ ਛਾਏ ॥ ਰੂਪ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬੇਧੀ ਸਸੈ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਏ ॥੩॥ 

Now this transformed mind is all set to merge (marriage) with trishna rupi budhi(manh) to elevate and after merger my dasam duar (descriminatory intellect) is all enlightened and this pious beertee has won over the cruel birtee (the lion) and has started singing hyms


----------



## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2014)

If I may add an opinion, the central facet of my litmus test is that the SGGS could be understood by the man in the street, one does not need to be well read to understand the message, and as such I wonder whether it is too easy to  overlook the central message and get bogged down in semantics.


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 21, 2014)

Luckysingh said:
			
		

> In vedic mythology, the 'buffalo' is not considered sacred unlike the cow. In fact, the God of death-Yamraj, is said to ride a buffalo. ...Kabirji has turned this around to say that even the 'un-sacred' buffalo is now performing worship, just like the un-sacred qualities we may have in our minds.



I was thinking something similar. If we don't travel into Vedanta, the water buffalo symbolizes night or darkness in Indian poetry. This is due to its black color and horns, which are shaped like the crescent moon. 

The person performing devotional worship is described as a water buffalo because the person remains in darkness (doesn't realize the Truth). Perhaps his method of devotional worship is incorrect (idol worship), or he hasn't met the guru (gu-roo) who can illuminate the darkness. 

If we are looking for explanations that the common man on the street can understand, then this seems to be the most straightforward approach. In gurbani, personification of various animals has been used to describe qualities of the mind, but it has also been used to describe people. To assume the former scenario, in this case, leaves some pieces that don't seem to fit. For example, how does one explain the sterile woman's son getting married in the context of the mind? This seems to be a convoluted endeavor that might be beyond the grasp of the common man on the street. I also don't believe Kabir ji would be so intentionally ambiguous.


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 21, 2014)

In my attempt to see the opposing view point, I have come up with the following using pieces of everyone's interpretation:  


 The elephant and the ox represent the wandering mind. They have been focused to the music of the shabadh.  


 The crow, who without the divine remains deluded with doubt, also plays the cymbals in devotion.  


 The donkey, which is full of lust, now dances to the tune of this shabadh. The water buffalo, which symbolizes darkness, now performs devotional worship by wading in the water. The water is the pool of ambrosial nectar in the mind.  


 The divine has prepared this dessert, but only the wise man can extract the sweetness.  


 The lion sitting in the den represents that anger has been brought under control. The muskrat, which is a hoarder by nature, now shares the betel nuts. The betel leaves and nuts are being prepared as appetizers for a wedding.  


 The mouse which normally nibbles away at the body and mind, now sends feelings of joy throughout the mind and body. The turtle, which is normally shy and timid, has come out of his shell to blow the horn in celebration.  


 The son of the sterile woman is Akaal. Akaal doesn't have a mother because Akaal is beyond birth and death. The Soul-Bride's family (the animals) sets out a golden canopy to welcome the Husband-Lord.


 The beautiful and enticing woman is the Soul-Bride. The rabbit and the lion come together to sing their praises. The rabbit and lion represent polar extremes of emotion. Normally the lion would attack the rabbit and the rabbit would run from the lion. Since they are singing praises together, it represents that these emotions have been brought under control.  


 The ant eating the mountain symbolizes a person understanding the Truth of the Universe.  


 The turtle, who is normally timid, comes out of his shell to ask for a piece of this Truth.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 21, 2014)

I am thoroughly and absolutely thrilled with this Thread...and as long as we continue to Look WITHIN Gurbani for the answers and explanations we will continue to be on the right path becasue all the answers are in Gurbani - thats one reason why the SGGS is of the length it is and why Guru ji went to all those far off places to collect the Gurbanis of various Sants and Bhagats and Sheikhs...becasue TRUTH is UNIVERSAL and transcends Time, Race, religion, Area etc. Guru Sahib collected the various dishes of Truth - 36 parkaar sort of..for us to relish and enjoy. This Thread is solid evidence that Sikhs are beginning to think and think hard rather than simply follow what the perceived holy babas and derawallahs tell them to believe...the Days of Bhai Bala and Bhai Gurdass II etc are going....and being replaced by the discerning Sikhs intent on digging out the Pearls of Gurmatt as Guru ji intended...:japosatnamwaheguru:


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2014)

The most interesting aspect of Gurbani I have discovered with time is that each verse is like a prism and with the help of perseverance and dedication we are able to see and savour some angles of it and the rest will be left to the generations to come.

The same thing happened to the other Sikhs of yesteryears. They left their footprints and gave us liberty to take the scenic route of ours on our own.

This was actually the ingenuity of our Gurus who did not get their portraits painted, their history written, and no interpretation of their Gurbani passed on a platter to us. There were  reasons behind it. The first two were  shunned because they were about them not about the idea of Sikhi which they wanted to develop and in order to develop the latter, they wanted us to become the sailors of the Gurbani oceans so that we become able to sail  the seas on our own and weather the storms of lives as they did and finally find our way while studying the stars of Gurmat. 

In other words, Gurbani is like the sky above us that we keep on gazing at because we  have had just the glimpse of it. The best is yet to come. This thread is its proof.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 22, 2014)

I think we should take every week one sabd and start understanding the spiritual aspect of it.


----------



## Luckysingh (Jul 22, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> The son of the sterile woman is Akaal. Akaal doesn't have a mother because Akaal is beyond birth and death. The Soul-Bride's family (the animals) sets out a golden canopy to welcome the Husband-Lord.
> 
> The beautiful and enticing woman is the Soul-Bride. .


 
Excellent !
That panktee was a little tricky, but you nailed it well !0


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 24, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> The son of the sterile woman is Akaal. Akaal doesn't have a mother because Akaal is beyond birth and death. The Soul-Bride's family (the animals) sets out a golden canopy to welcome the Husband-Lord.


 I think this panktee needs further exploration as in 'ਸੁਇਨੇ ਮੰਡਪ ਛਾਏ ॥ kabeer is not referring to physical golden canopy but canopy of light, wisdom and understanding (opening of dasam duar) thus ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ  cannot be akal but stained thought process of my manh is now all set to 'ਬੀਆਹਨ ਚਲਿਆ' merge (marry) after taming all those animals sitting within me. Kabeer has used word bans in, 'ਬੂਡਾ ਬੰਸੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਕਾ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਪੂਤੁ ਕਮਾਲੁ ॥ from the elevated thought process of my manh emanated the divine message.


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 24, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> I think this panktee needs further exploration as in 'ਸੁਇਨੇ ਮੰਡਪ ਛਾਏ ॥ kabeer is not referring to physical golden canopy but canopy of light, wisdom and understanding (opening of dasam duar) thus ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ  cannot be akal but stained thought process of my manh is now all set to 'ਬੀਆਹਨ ਚਲਿਆ' merge (marry) after taming all those animals sitting within me. Kabeer has used word bans in, 'ਬੂਡਾ ਬੰਸੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਕਾ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਪੂਤੁ ਕਮਾਲੁ ॥ from the elevated thought process of my manh emanated the divine message.



I agree about the canopy, but I'm not sure if the sterile woman's son is the stained thought process of the mind. If that is true, then who is the beautiful and enticing woman he is marrying?

Can you please explain further?


----------



## Luckysingh (Jul 24, 2014)

You can assume that ''son of sterile woman'' is the nirgun nirankar-Akaal purakh, *OR* it may even mean that it is the son of Maya....-as the product of maya which is ego is just like an illusion of the mirror.
In some other shabads Kabirji has also referred to Maya as the female mother that doesn't give birth to it's traits, but they are born in the face of ego, which is probably why I initially went on that avenue.

Personally, in this case Sherdil's suggestion seems more fitting ....and anyway the *REAL point is,...... that it doesn't actually matter.....whether you choose son to be maya/ego or waheguru, the deeper MESSAGE of the shabad still remain UNCHANGED !*


----------



## arshi (Jul 24, 2014)

There are times when I have not concurred with Sahni ji’s interpretation of Gurbani. However, in this case, I feel, he has a point regarding ‘the son of maya’ interpretation.

I am not exactly sure Sahni ji’s understanding is but this is how I see it with my meagre understanding of Kabir Ji’s Bani.

As stated in my earlier post (#3) Bhagat Ji has used two scenarios:

(a) _kakree-aa (khakhree-aa)_
(b) a wedding scenario

Let us take each in turn:

*(a) **kakree-aa (khakhree-aa)*
Our _mann_ under the negative influences of _maya_ is like the fruit from _Akk_ or cactus – bitter and repulsive (the exact identity of the plant is not an issue except it is repulsive and tasteless). 

The negative aspects of _maya_ on _mann _and its inner-concious are illustrated by the characteristics of various animals depicted, e.g. *stubborn, obstinate, merciless, foolish etc.*

Once these are eradicated, the bitter fruit (former _mann_) is now transformed in to a *sweet mango ready for consumption*. The ‘soul-bride’ is now ready to go into wed-lock with the Truth, Parmatma, WaheGuru (Sikhs use different terms for this and I do not wish to enter into another debate). 

*(b) a wedding scenario*
Gurbani has referred to our inner-conscious, _jeea_, _surt_i, in feminine form. This _mind’s surti _(_anteh-karan_, inner-conscious) which, previously, was like an ignorant, stupid, ugly bride of low status has now turned into a vivacious, wise bride of divine understanding.

ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ ਬੀਆਹਨ ਚਲਿਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਮੰਡਪ ਛਾਏ॥ਰੂਪ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬੇਧੀ ਸਸੈ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਏ॥੩॥ _bans ko poot bee-aahan chali-aa su-inay mandap chhaa-ay. (SGS 477)_


Maya is _baanjh_ and therefore does not give birth but we become her ‘adopted’ sons by adopting the three qualities (Gunn) of Maya — three thought-conditions or states of the mind. (_Sato_, _Rajo, Tamo_).

The _mann_ which was previously under the grip of _maya_ (as we say in Punjabi - “_maya da putar banyaa baitha see”_), now, with humility nurtured through the teachings of Guru, has transformed into an eligible son ready to step on to the _mandap,_ bedecked with beautiful pillars under the golden canopy of Gian and enlightenment. The conscious mind is now in congruence with the pure, virgin and unstained _surti _(i.e. the mind’s _surat__ or surti_ is now rid of all vicars (negative traits).

As always I stand corrected.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


----------



## japjisahib04 (Jul 24, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I agree about the canopy, but I'm not sure if the sterile woman's son is the stained thought process of the mind. If that is true, then who is the beautiful and enticing woman he is marrying?
> 
> Can you please explain further?


 I don't understand how 'ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ' has been interpreted as sterile woman's son. I can understand ignorant woman's son (manh deceited by maya thus stained). Over here the beautiful and enticing woman is elevation of mind (heightened upto state of bekunth) ਸੁੰਦਰਿ elevated within me which has 'ਬੇਧੀ' conquered the lion birtee (cruelty) and as such now same lion started singing hyms.


----------



## Sherdil (Jul 24, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> I don't understand how 'ਬੰਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤੁ' has been interpreted as sterile woman's son. I can understand ignorant woman's son (manh deceited by maya thus stained). Over here the beautiful and enticing woman is elevation of mind (heightened upto state of bekunth) ਸੁੰਦਰਿ elevated within me which has 'ਬੇਧੀ' conquered the lion birtee (cruelty) and as such now same lion started singing hyms.



I guess ignorant woman's son can be erroneously taken at face value. I like the way Lucky ji and Arshi ji put it: The Punjabi phrase "Maya da putt baneyah" means one is under the influence of Maya, which is sterile because it doesn't beget its own image. It appears subjectively through the person's eyes.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2014)

Bahgat kabir Ji is Master of metaphor..His command of the language of riddles and all is truly beyond remarkable..its astounding..No wonder Guru Nanak ji fell instantly in love with it and collected the BEST for US...


----------



## Rituanand (Jan 26, 2022)

Thank you so much for this beautiful thread. Discourses such as these are essential to improving our understanding of Baani.


----------

