# The Current State Of Sikhism In The West



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 17, 2012)

Satsriakal Fellow Pajis and Penjis, and elders on this forum.
Im Amar Singh Maur, and I am new to this forum and i am 18 years old having be born and brought up in England.
Now introducing my arrival to this forum, id like to say that i am very young in terms of knowledge of our religion and i am learning punjabi and i would very much look towards to learning about Sikhi.
But in my young life so far, in the west Sikhism is in a state which pretty much contradicts all the principles Sikhi founded its self upon.
Im a very keen reader in to philosphy and demecroacy and my inspirations step from martin luther king, malcom x and the late bhagat Singh.
My mom has always told me to speak my mind, especially whatever i hold inside my mind.
Having lived in England as a Singh, life has been difficult at times, espically being outcasted by members our own community who have decided to opt the modern look of being clean shaven and selling out there principles to fit in a drinking era.
Now before i talk about the current state of Sikhism i want to talk about the factors which i feel are responsible for the decline of Sikhs who follow the rehat of keeping hair.

The first is the mismanagement of our Religion by the religious institutes and leaders.
The problem here is that Sikhism has lowered its standards to allow even the most delinquent Punjabi raised individual to classify themselves as Sikhs. 
This is simply the incorrect approach to Sikhism, and even God himself.
Whatever we achieve after death, mukhti, or being born in to cycle of rebirths is down to our lives, the life we lived, and our points must be accumulated for us to be allowed to reach god in our after life, we have to work towards that goal of being united with God. 
The management of Sikhism has completely got this wrong, and has given 'Sikhs' the lowered entry requirements to be called themselves there Sikh by accepting people who have cut hair and people who live life which go against the principle of Sikhs.
This same principle applies to life.
If i were to apply for a university to study, i am expected to achieve the grades to be allowed entry, i have to earn my strap, earn my points to achieve that entry.
If universitys told me, that hey whatever you get we will let you in, do you think i will work just as hard ?
Most people will be lazy and just accept that ill be accepted regardless and there is no need to work hard, because the entry requirements have been lowered.
This is the problem of our Sikhi, we have lowered our values, our entry requirements, our principles to what qualify as a Sikh.
With this mindset, people think that whatever they do they are still a part of Sikhism, cutting there hair, drinking, and it doesn't matter no matter what they do they will be part of our religion.
What about those who fulfill the principles our religion was born on ?
Is it right for someone such as those who follow the principles and values as the same person who defies the rules ?
With this lowered accepting anything mindset, has led to people do what they please and has led to youths rebelling against religion and tradition in search of women, by becoming clean shaven.
These people have caused more damaged to the Sikh society, than then being apart of the religion.
This question begs the question
We see many debates going on in the Gudwara about 1984, what about the debates on what makes a Sikh ?
What about teaching what being a Sikh is ?
I have never heard in a temple which clearly rejects the notion of cutting hair.
We need to very correctly define what a Sikh is and allow the younger Sikhs to have a direction to follow rather than terming anyone who is born in to a sikh family with cut hair being a Sikh.

The main problem is that Gudwara committees simply do not have the courage to speak up about the current state of Sikhism, and more importantly what defines a Sikh.
This is because our religion is a commercial asset to the committees which run our temples. If they were to speak up about the wrongs of cutting hair, they know that the people who are in the wrong will simply not come to the gudwara and simply lose out on potential income which may come from them such as programs regarding path and langer sewa.

This is my honest view, fellow Sikhs feel free to debate as i have spoken my mind, and i want to hear your fellow views.
Amar


----------



## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 17, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*

another big probelm in sikhism, is conversion to other religions is going on very strongly at the moment. if only they can strengthen up their knowledge on sikhism, then surely they won t be influence easily.. we need really good teachers to teach in a very modern style to attract our sikh young youths, so they will get attracted towards it.. modern style means a new way of approach in teaching. all the true satgurus came down to take the whole society in a right direction,, there was no intention from this true satgurus to create religions and subdivision.. religions were mankind creation after this gurus left. this is my oppinion hope it won t hurt anybody feelings


----------



## Ishna (Dec 17, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*

Hi Amar ji

Welcome to the forum. welcomekaur

You've got some very interesting and thorough thoughts around this topic. Thank you for sharing them. Although I am a caucasian Westerner I can relate to some of your points of frustration, about standards etc. You'll drive yourself nuts if you think about it too much. Everybody's different, people sit at different points of the spectrum of any religion, and Sikhi is no exception. There are orthodox Sikhs and liberal (barely recognisable) Sikhs.

Ultimately, it's a dilemma of the individual. The spectrum will always exist. All you can do is find your spot on it and then find others at the same level and then pour your efforts and forus into that section of community. Be the example, be the standard. If you keep looking down the spectrum and criticizing those other people, you'll go insane. You can't change them, you can only do your best.

The title is a little bit misleading. It's not just Sikhi in the West that has problems. It's Sikhi across the world. Actually it's not the Sikhi, it's the humans with the problems.


----------



## Parma (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



AmarvelliSinghMaur said:


> Satsriakal Fellow Pajis and Penjis, and elders on this forum.
> Im Amar Singh Maur, and I am new to this forum and i am 18 years old having be born and brought up in England.
> Now introducing my arrival to this forum, id like to say that i am very young in terms of knowledge of our religion and i am learning punjabi and i would very much look towards to learning about Sikhi.
> But in my young life so far, in the west Sikhism is in a state which pretty much contradicts all the principles Sikhi founded its self upon.
> ...


 
The thing is Amar ji, you can not ban people! You never know though Amar ji go to your local gurdwara and give this a go try an experiment ban all sehajdari sikhs and all other people that have not got the 5 k's from going to the gurdwara see if this improves the sikhi in that area! You never know!You will either lose your 5 k's stance or the other sikhs, either way one of them will have to give! You can not control peoples thoughts if your happy with the full 5 k's perception of sikhism then fine but it does not define sikhism to the core as the real message is about peace! The rest is just the icing on the cake! Look at message of the guru, nothing else is more important than that, like the langar part although it is an important part of sikhi and so are other traditions important to sikhism like the 5'ks, sikhism is a religion and everything just falls around the message of the Guru Granth Sahib ji, get that part right understanding the message and the other parts are just a basis for understanding humanity that take effect! If you have love for humanity you may want to feed it hence the Langar and other things that are incorporated into the sikh faith and so forth.


----------



## Harry Haller (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*

Amarji

Welcome to the forum, I have some comments  



> But in my young life so far, in the west Sikhism is in a state which  pretty much contradicts all the principles Sikhi founded its self upon.



I see, whereas in India, Sikhism is in an almost perfect state? Personally I think if Sikhism is to be the global religion and way of life that the Gurus envisaged, then the first thing we need to do is strip away all the bad Punjabi facets that have penetrated Sikhi. In India, the SGGS is seen more as an idol, to be worshipped and prayed to, to be asked things from, with ceremony, pomp, ritual. The very Vedic practices that were advised against, have also managed to find their way into many Gurdwaras. Compare the actions of the Indian leadership with the US leadership when the Wisconsin shootings occured. It is the West that will save Sikhism....



> Having lived in England as a Singh, life has been difficult at times,  espically being outcasted by members our own community who have decided  to opt the modern look of being clean shaven and selling out there  principles to fit in a drinking era.



Oh well at least we have not embraced hard drugs yet..........



> Now before i talk about the current state of Sikhism i want to talk  about the factors which i feel are responsible for the decline of Sikhs  who follow the rehat of keeping hair.



I see we have two extremes of ages embracing this, wonderful! 



> Whatever we achieve after death, mukhti, or being born in to cycle of  rebirths is down to our lives, the life we lived, and our points must be  accumulated for us to be allowed to reach god in our after life, we  have to work towards that goal of being united with God.



In my opinion, doing good deeds for a reward is wrong, doing good deeds to make a goal happen takes so much away from the deed itself, some would say we are already united with God, giving a beggar food for God that lives within the beggar is admirable, giving a beggar food to accumulate brownie points, I feel, is not so. 


> The management of Sikhism has completely got this wrong, and has given  'Sikhs' the lowered entry requirements to be called themselves there  Sikh by accepting people who have cut hair and people who live life  which go against the principle of Sikhs.



Hair is something beautiful, in my view the love for hair must be earned, I find it most depressing to speak to a turbanned Sikh who has no idea about the fundamental foundations of Sikhism. 



> If i were to apply for a university to study, i am expected to achieve  the grades to be allowed entry, i have to earn my strap, earn my points  to achieve that entry.



What in fact you are advocating is that wearing a turban automatically earns that strap, it does not.....



> This is the problem of our Sikhi, we have lowered our values, our entry requirements, our principles to what qualify as a Sikh.



Our Sikhi? no this is YOUR Sikhi. I have my own relationship with Creator, and it has nothing to do with anyone else. However, in my relationship, I see no need to force my views on others. Let every person find God in their own way, in their own time, at thier own pace. 



> With this mindset, people think that whatever they do they are still a  part of Sikhism, cutting there hair, drinking, and it doesn't matter no  matter what they do they will be part of our religion.



Hmm, how do you feel about fully haired non drinking Sikhs that elevate hard core porn to the same level as the SGGS? Yes, there is a very big picture here, and it is bigger than attempting to split Sikhism even further. 



> Is it right for someone such as those who follow the principles and values as the same person who defies the rules ?



In this world, it is the insane, those that defy the rules that sometimes talk the most sense, Kala Afghana has been excommunicated for defying the rules, are you talking about all rules, or just the hair one?



> With this lowered accepting anything mindset, has led to people do what  they please and has led to youths rebelling against religion and  tradition in search of women, by becoming clean shaven.



ah just the hair rules then, 



> These people have caused more damaged to the Sikh society, than then being apart of the religion.



I dont think so, we just try and live our lives as good Sikhs, implementing the core directives, before embracing the uniform, I do not see myself as worthy to wear a turban, one day I will, and I will be proud to be a full member of the Khalsa, but I will do so in my own time, if we follow your line of thinking, we will have armies of well equiped soldiers who have no idea what they fight for, or indeed how to fight. 



> We need to very correctly define what a Sikh is and allow the younger  Sikhs to have a direction to follow rather than terming anyone who is  born in to a sikh family with cut hair being a Sikh.



or we could concentrate on making sure that those with hair realise the responsibility that they carry, by being visual ambassadors of Sikhism. By your definition, I am not a Sikh, how very noble and inclusive of you.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*

WELCOME jios...Its a Good start..keep writing...


----------



## vaulakh (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*

Sat Sri Akal,
Sikhs in west are increasingly becoming  westernized.Although alcohol addiction has increased among men in  Punjab,but it more severe in western countries where both men and WOMEN  are addicted to alcoholism.For instance if one analyze the situation on  Sikh Matrimonial Websites,it is evident that around 90% Sikh women in  western countries drink alcohol.Interfaith marriage is more common among  Sikhs in west,especially Sikh girls marrying Muslims.Similarly divorce  rate is much higher among Sikhs in western countries.Also most Sikhs  born abroad do not speak Punjabi or speak at elementary level;instead  they prefer English and dislike Sikhs born in Punjab as latter are not  versed in western way of life.


----------



## Ishna (Dec 18, 2012)

[evil Ishna]

Well then ship 'em all back to Punjab where they can do drugs, kill female babies and worship Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an idol without even knowing what it says.

Seriously, the 'western corruption' argument is a bit of a joke (like the above), Mr Vaulack JI. When Punjab is a pristine paradise, THEN you can start blaming the problems of the Sikh world on other countires. Until you can sort out the crap in your own backyard don't try criticising others.

[/evil Ishna]


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 18, 2012)

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
                                   I will reply back to this thread in the next few days, its just that i have exams going on at the moment.
I will post back explaining the views i have expressed and debate with the other side of the spectrum.
peacesign


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



harry haller said:


> Amarji
> 
> Welcome to the forum, I have some comments
> 
> ...



And why should others carry that responsibility to carry that responsibility that many chose to reject and rely on others to visually represent ?
Everyone born in this planet has there own responsibilities to fulfill and neither anyone else should be carrying out those responsibilities for you.
The whole concept you have put forward of others carrying the flag shows that responsibility is not down to yourself but others, and this completely wrong on a intellectual level. Instead of telling others to understand there responsibility you should understand that you have your own responsibilities and that is not down to others to fulfill.
Before calling yourself a Sikh, understand that responsibilities both in your spiritual life and your professional life are down to you, not others.
Before we make new temples, we should concentrate on making Sikhs and the management of Sikh should advocate the principles and concepts which will allow people to understand what makes a Sikh.
Our religion was born from martyrdom, sacrifice, devotion to God and having the courage to fulfill there own responsibilities.
The current crisis that Sikhism is suffering is far beyond the cutting of hair, but a complete lack of education from a cultural perspective and spiritual perspective in what will allow people to become Sikhs that can aid the development of our sangat as a whole.
This is the responsibility that should have been carried out by Higher authorities in the Gudwara, to guide Sikhs and help them learn to walk this path of Sikhi. But sadly, having been to many gudwaras especially in the west, this responsibility to teach the younger generation has been sacrificed for commercial gain. To those who say the young girls and guys who wander from Sikhi are unworthy of Sikhs, is completely incorrect. Many of these youths are misguided and have no education about Sikhism, highlighting the failure of our temples for guiding and teaching how these youths can be Sikhs. Humans are not animals, but through the correct education an individual can be come anything they wish to, and when many start to understand Sikhism on an intellectual level this can be the spark of a spiritual journey towards becoming a Sikh.
It is the responsibility for the elder heir-achy to teach and educate the youngsters can be at least given the chance to understand and develop there own spiritual connection.
The elder committee of each gudwara, should all be first and for most good Sikhs and have the responsibility to connect the sangat to the spiritual gudwara. If sangat listen or don't, but what if that one person s has taken aboard these thoughts and has become interested in becoming a Sikh ?
Give these youngsters the chance to learn, including myself.
We hear many speeches in the gudwara about donations to 1984 families and charities, we hear many speeches about the formation of Khalistan, but why not dedicate time towards the youth who may have come every weekend but will have not have the slightest idea what is being said because many people have come from homes where punjabi is not spoken. Sikhs have become educated in the western world and are fluent in English and these Sikhs should dedicate at least an hour every day to educate these youngsters in english so they can at least can understand something which may lead to further desire to learn about Sikhism.
We don't need donations, we don't need money, we don't need guns and we certainly don't need a separate country yet.
We need teachers, we need Sikhs who care.


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 18, 2012)

Ishna said:


> [evil Ishna]
> 
> Well then ship 'em all back to Punjab where they can do drugs, kill female babies and worship Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an idol without even knowing what it says.
> 
> ...



Ishna i do agree with you about us sorting out the crap we have, Sikhs all as a collective unit must understand what defines the core principles which lays the foundations of our religion.
Its a matter of lack of education from our Religious institutes, who seem to have there own agenda instead of fulfill there role of teaching and helping people connect to the gudwara and help them walk there own spiritual path.
We as a sangat need to sort out our values.
Blaming everything simply not drinking is being ignorant and not understanding the core issues which results in us prodding down that path of defying those concepts. Sikhs must be educated, and learn what makes a Sikh instead of automatically being handed that title.


----------



## Harry Haller (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



AmarvelliSinghMaur said:


> And why should others carry that responsibility to carry that responsibility that many chose to reject and rely on others to visually represent ?
> Everyone born in this planet has there own responsibilities to fulfill and neither anyone else should be carrying out those responsibilities for you.
> The whole concept you have put forward of others carrying the flag shows that responsibility is not down to yourself but others, and this completely wrong on a intellectual level. Instead of telling others to understand there responsibility you should understand that you have your own responsibilities and that is not down to others to fulfill.
> Before calling yourself a Sikh, understand that responsibilities both in your spiritual life and your professional life are down to you, not others.
> ...



Good, now we are singing from the same song sheet, let us not detract from the important issues in Sikhism by focusing on the one issue, which if handled incorrectly, could well limit the amount of young people looking for the truth. We owe it to educate and include everyone, not just those who choose to commit transgressions in full public view rather than in private,.


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> another big probelm in sikhism, is conversion to other religions is going on very strongly at the moment. if only they can strengthen up their knowledge on sikhism, then surely they won t be influence easily.. we need really good teachers to teach in a very modern style to attract our sikh young youths, so they will get attracted towards it.. modern style means a new way of approach in teaching. all the true satgurus came down to take the whole society in a right direction,, there was no intention from this true satgurus to create religions and subdivision.. religions were mankind creation after this gurus left. this is my oppinion hope it won t hurt anybody feelings



This is because, these so called 'Sikhs' have never been educated on what makes a Sikh and are completely clueless.
Many people convert to other religions because they are being educated and they respond positively and decide to embrace a spirtual journey that is being presented to them.
We as Sikhs, are automatically handed the Title of being a Sikh without understanding the spiritual aspects along with the principles on what makes a good Sikhs.
Our direction of our religion will ensure more people will get converted, because the lack of education on offer from where the spiritual journey starts from most beginners, the Gudwara. Where Sikhs can learn what makes a Sikh and gives them a value of morality so they can live positive values in our society.


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



harry haller said:


> Good, now we are singing from the same song sheet, let us not detract from the important issues in Sikhism by focusing on the one issue, which if handled incorrectly, could well limit the amount of young people looking for the truth. We owe it to educate and include everyone, not just those who choose to commit transgressions in full public view rather than in private,.



The lack of education is almost bizare if i am honest. Knowledge is an eternal journey and we can never stop learning, Sikh means to learn. But how can we learn Sikhi if these religious Gudwaras dont teach the youth and denying them to learn ?
Not everyone has punjabi speaking parents, and many struggle to string a few sentences together.
Teaching this youngsters in english and punjabi will reach out to all the youngsters.
We have classes on 1984, Making donations to Sikh channels, what we need to have classes on is our History, Our principles and values which define us as Sikhs.


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Dec 18, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



Parma said:


> The thing is Amar ji, you can not ban people! You never know though Amar ji go to your local gurdwara and give this a go try an experiment ban all sehajdari sikhs and all other people that have not got the 5 k's from going to the gurdwara see if this improves the sikhi in that area! You never know!You will either lose your 5 k's stance or the other sikhs, either way one of them will have to give! You can not control peoples thoughts if your happy with the full 5 k's perception of sikhism then fine but it does not define sikhism to the core as the real message is about peace! The rest is just the icing on the cake! Look at message of the guru, nothing else is more important than that, like the langar part although it is an important part of sikhi and so are other traditions important to sikhism like the 5'ks, sikhism is a religion and everything just falls around the message of the Guru Granth Sahib ji, get that part right understanding the message and the other parts are just a basis for understanding humanity that take effect! If you have love for humanity you may want to feed it hence the Langar and other things that are incorporated into the sikh faith and so forth.



Pama Ji, I am not advocating banning anyone because that is completely wrong.
The underlying issue is that the lack of education presented from the elders to the younger generations, and the title of being a Sikh is being handed straight away without the individual begining on the journey to learn.
This significantly dilutes the value of being a Sikh, as the main principle of being a Sikh is to learn which is clearly not present in the younger generations.
How many youths do you think would know the answer to the meaning of langar and where did langar originate from ?
Many do not understand the principle behind langaar.
We need to educate our youngsters and this is the responsibility of all the elders, passing on there knowledge to the youngsters.
The committees have just assumed and lowered there values to claim everyone is a sikh without teaching them the core principles which define our religion. Sikh is about learning and is not a title anyone can be handed to, regardless of uncut or cut hair.
Perhaps we might not stop everyone cutting there hair, But maybe we can educate that 1 youngster who can begin to lead a life of spirituality and help promote the principles to there fellow brothers and sisters.
Im speaking this eyes iv seen through, im one of the youngsters who find it difficult to learn more about more religion and i one of the many who fail to find an education about the identify they have.
We need to change, and everyone needs to help and teach one another instead of just handing out the title to the complete unknown.


----------



## Parma (Dec 19, 2012)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



AmarvelliSinghMaur said:


> Pama Ji, I am not advocating banning anyone because that is completely wrong.
> The underlying issue is that the lack of education presented from the elders to the younger generations, and the title of being a Sikh is being handed straight away without the individual begining on the journey to learn.
> This significantly dilutes the value of being a Sikh, as the main principle of being a Sikh is to learn which is clearly not present in the younger generations.
> How many youths do you think would know the answer to the meaning of langar and where did langar originate from ?
> ...


 
Sir I agree in part with what you are saying only thing is as I have highlighted it is this, all humanity is learning! Who are we to place a value on humanity to me it is priceless, who gets to decide who is a sikh and who is not? How can you achieve a boundary on something so great that exists in all (learning)? Wether we like it or not, this is out of the established sikh orders hands it is the message of god! It is creation it is about the creator. It will flourish as nature does with all its creation, you can put concrete on the floor then tarmac over it but after time a plant will make a crack through it and still grow through even after civilizations have ended nature, that love for life still exists! Why deny love for humanity embrace it! It can not be stopped and love will conquer all! All we can do is nuture it, nothing more!


----------



## vaulakh (Dec 19, 2012)

Ishna said:


> [evil Ishna]
> 
> Well then ship 'em all back to Punjab where they can do drugs, kill female babies and worship Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an idol without even knowing what it says.
> 
> ...



Sat Sri Akal,
I did not mean to offend anybody,I just tried to compare based on the facts.Please notice that I admit that there is alcohol addiction in Punjab among men,but as I said it is more severe in western Sikhs as both male and females take alcohol.And even drugs especially club drugs that induce polygamous behaviour are much more common in west.Also in Punjab Sikh women do not smoke but in west they do. In Punjab female foeticide is now under control due to govt. restriction and increasing awareness.
In terms of five vices(lust,anger,greed,emotional attachment,egotism) mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,I would like to make few comparisons for western Sikhs,like Ishna Ji, who say that they are proud to be westerner:
1.Lust: Premartial and extramartial intercourse is prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.But in west around 30-40% marriages end up in divorce;and extramartial intercourse as per social studies is around 40%.In villages of Punjab promiscuity and egotism is less pronounced thus much lower divorce rate,but divorce rate is increasing in cities as people are becoming westernize.Moreover prostitution and pornography is common in western countries.Even there are a few Sikh pornstars like Sunny Leone.
2.Crime and human rights violation(motivated by anger/greed/lust/egotism):Crime rate in western countries is higher in than Punjab in terms of thefts,murder,domestic violence,rape,gang rapes.Serial killers are not found in Punjab. Western countries have been worst offenders of human rights for centuries-slave trade,colonialism,massacres,world wars.For instance,in Jallianwala Bagh massacre around 1000 people were killed,but to this date NO FORMAL apology 
has been issued by British Government.Western countries attacked and killed(directly or indirectly) around 1000000 Iraqis,mainly poor people,when there was no reason to attack them,as it is crystal clear now.I don't want to go into further details but would like to mention that in general people of Punjab have used violence to defend their community rather than to offend and terrorize others.
3.Greedlease visit global issues.org to know details that why developing nations are poor;poverty in third world countries is not consequence of scarcity of resources but it is perpetuated by western countries by their economical policies and sanctions (through IMF and World Bank).And greed is prevalent to such an extent that around 5 % elite people in western countries possess around 99% of wealth in these countries.And as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji greed and happiness are inversely related.Despite being rich suicide rate is much higher in western countries than Punjab,because people of Punjab have more prosperous life even they are poor as per western standards.
4.Racism(motivated by egotism):Though casteism is common in Punjab,on the parallel racism is present in every European/western country.Western authorities directly or indirectly involved in institutional racism to promote white supermacy agenda.I would like to share my personal experience-I have two email account one with a western name,created to know discrimination, and another with Sikh name and I made enquiries regarding research studies at several departments in certain western countries.To my dismay I got around 20% replies with my Sikh name compared to almost 90% ENTHUSIASTIC replies with christian/western name,even when content of my enquiries was similar.Attack on Sikh temple in USA is a recent example of racism.

So in nutshell,I do admit that these vices are in human nature and found everywhere irrespective of race,caste,religion or country but these are more prominent in western countries.In other words if situation is 'bad' in Punjab then it is 'worse' in western countries.


----------



## Parma (Dec 19, 2012)

Humanity is lost within the shabad, before you can even begin to start reading it and understanding it. = Analogy explaination; You are lost until things make sense. A question from me to you is this; If the sikh faith could deal with the diversty (diversty of knowledge, diversty of appearance and diversty of the human race = Sangat) of the sangat at the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and before him, then why can not the sikh faith deal with the diversty of the sangat in the presence of the Shabad Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji now? This is obviously a problem with the leadership of the faith, who are more interested in the distribution of the money and the power, they are faithfull no doubt but it is more about where their priorities lie


----------



## Ishna (Dec 21, 2012)

> 1.Lust: Premartial and extramartial intercourse is prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.But in west around 30-40% marriages end up in divorce;and extramartial intercourse as per social studies is around 40%.In villages of Punjab promiscuity and egotism is less pronounced thus much lower divorce rate,but divorce rate is increasing in cities as people are becoming westernize.Moreover prostitution and pornography is common in western countries.Even there are a few Sikh pornstars like Sunny Leone.


 
Just out of curiosity, where is it prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
I think the divorce rate in Punjab is lower because it's not socially acceptable for a couple to divorce, even in cases of domestic violence. Although I agree in principle that casual sex and lack of committment are not virtuous qualities my personal opinion is that not allowing couples to divorce due to domestic violence is worse. I wouldn't say divorce is due to 'primiscuity and egotism' but a higher expectation (perhaps delusional) of quality of life. Westerners don't want to stay in a relationship that's not working. By the same token they can be less inclined to put committment behind working out their problems. Of course, these are generalisations and there are people who sit at either end of the spectrum and everywhere in between.

In the UK, 34% of marriages will end before the 20th wedding anniversary, which is at the lower end of your ball park. Source. OMG a source!

Prostitution is a global trade, Punjab is not exempt. Here's an article about trying to break a prostitution tradition in a Punjabi village. Luckily we don't really have this kind of tradition in the West. Nor do we have temples with prostitutues like some temples in India still do.

There is a porn industry in India. India has made good contributions to sexuality in the world, with literature like the Kama Sutra. There is no equivelant sex manual in 'the West' unless you include The Joy Of Sex complete with the illustrations with 70's moustaches lol 

What about rape, does that count as extra marital sex?  Rape occurs in Punjab as well as western countries.



> 2.Crime and human rights violation(motivated by anger/greed/lust/egotism):Crime rate in western countries is higher in than Punjab in terms of thefts,murder,domestic violence,rape,gang rapes.Serial killers are not found in Punjab. Western countries have been worst offenders of human rights for centuries-slave trade,colonialism,massacres,world wars.For instance,in Jallianwala Bagh massacre around 1000 people were killed,but to this date NO FORMAL apology
> has been issued by British Government.Western countries attacked and killed(directly or indirectly) around 1000000 Iraqis,mainly poor people,when there was no reason to attack them,as it is crystal clear now.I don't want to go into further details but would like to mention that in general people of Punjab have used violence to defend their community rather than to offend and terrorize others.


 
Please show me your statistics. How have you compared the comparitively small Punjabi region with whatever 'the West' is exactly? Serial killers are not found in Punjab? Just corrupt officials who knock off anyone who gets in their way, but it's ok because they have power? Here's an article about the recent shooting of the police officer who was trying to protect his daughter. But I'm sure he wasn't terrorising anyone but just defending his community.

There's no formal apology for Operation Blue Star either.



> 3.Greedlease visit global issues.org to know details that why developing nations are poor;poverty in third world countries is not consequence of scarcity of resources but it is perpetuated by western countries by their economical policies and sanctions (through IMF and World Bank).And greed is prevalent to such an extent that around 5 % elite people in western countries possess around 99% of wealth in these countries.And as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji greed and happiness are inversely related.Despite being rich suicide rate is much higher in western countries than Punjab,because people of Punjab have more prosperous life even they are poor as per western standards.


 
Greed is definately a problem in the west. I will agree, quality of life in the west is so high because it's built on the foundation of exploiting poorer 3rd world countries. Or just exploiting in general. Like Apple and their Chinese factories.

I might suggest that poverty in India is reinforced by the caste system which is still perpetuated by some Sikhs.  The west has nothing to do with that bugbear in the India closet.

Can I see some suicide rates for Punjab?  Can we include honour killings in the total because I'm not sure where else it fits in our discussion.



> 4.Racism(motivated by egotism):Though casteism is common in Punjab,on the parallel racism is present in every European/western country.Western authorities directly or indirectly involved in institutional racism to promote white supermacy agenda.I would like to share my personal experience-I have two email account one with a western name,created to know discrimination, and another with Sikh name and I made enquiries regarding research studies at several departments in certain western countries.To my dismay I got around 20% replies with my Sikh name compared to almost 90% ENTHUSIASTIC replies with christian/western name,even when content of my enquiries was similar.Attack on Sikh temple in USA is a recent example of racism.


 
Westerners are not the only ones capable of racism... ... ...

Please tell me more about the white supremacy agenda, with sources.  Sorry you've had such a negative personal experience with names.  My western workplace employes a lot of multicultural people, including a couple of Sikhs.

The attack in Wisconsin was tragic and related to white supremacy.  I point out they are the minority.  I don't know much about racism in Punjab, I've never been there.  I would speculate that racism is a human quality, coming from our tendancy to compartmentalise and see differences.  From my personal experience, during my school years multiculturalism was drilled into me.  Our countries are so multicultural now its hard to identify with our own sense of western culture.  There is constant promotion in my country of multicultural events, tolerance and diversity.  Does the same happen in Punjab?  I've been warned, as a white female, if I ever do visit India I should always wear a salwar kameez and be wary because I will be viewed as a piece of meat by Indian men.  I think that might be a form of racism.



> In other words if situation is 'bad' in Punjab then it is 'worse' in western countries.


 
I would say, each culture has it's stengths and weaknesses.  Each culture has it's own moral standard.  You can't arbitrarily apply one cultural mode to another culture and call it proof.

I'm glad I'm a woman in a western country.  I have a voice, I have freedom to be responsible for myself without a man making all my decisions for me, I can choose who I marry, I can divorce them with support from my community if my husband beats me or demands I have an abortion, and I exist with a whole heap of other women because we are valued, not seen as a burdon, in our society.  We are not aborted in the womb because of our gender, our birth is celebrated like the birth of a boy, and we can walk down the street in our mini skirts without a high risk of a man groping us.

Here's an article on dowry and female feoticide (which apparently isn't as under control as you might think) in Punjab:  http://punjabnewsline.com/news/Eliminate-dowry_-female-foeticide-from-Punjab_-Harsimrat-Badal.html 

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore.  Perhaps our next exchange could be of the positive things both our cultures have contributed to the world.  Because along with the bad things there are good things too, in both cultures.  And I'm done slinging mud.


----------



## Luckysingh (Dec 21, 2012)

All the problems are world wide and they are everywhere.
To confine them to one place is ignorance because where child labour may not exist, then other problems of drugs and prostitution will, and vice versa


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Jan 1, 2013)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



Parma said:


> Sir I agree in part with what you are saying only thing is as I have highlighted it is this, all humanity is learning! Who are we to place a value on humanity to me it is priceless, who gets to decide who is a sikh and who is not? How can you achieve a boundary on something so great that exists in all (learning)? Wether we like it or not, this is out of the established sikh orders hands it is the message of god! It is creation it is about the creator. It will flourish as nature does with all its creation, you can put concrete on the floor then tarmac over it but after time a plant will make a crack through it and still grow through even after civilizations have ended nature, that love for life still exists! Why deny love for humanity embrace it! It can not be stopped and love will conquer all! All we can do is nuture it, nothing more!



First Parma, I apologise for the late reply, iv just been busy with revision for my up comming exams. I hope everyone in the forum is good, and everyone will have a sucessful and happy new year.

Now Parma, I agree to some aspect of your post as it has highlighted a key concept in the journey to knowledge, but however i disagree with your ideology concerning it.
I am 18 years old and I'm learning, no doubt about that, im a student and i more than anyone appreciate the power of knowledge.
Now you have highlighted two important concepts and in my opinion this is how they work in tandem with one another.

*Nature + Nuture = Knowledge.*

We are all born in to Sikh families or maybe others may not. We are given the start, but without correctly nurturing our gift of live we can not ascend to the path which we would like to. Parma i completely disagree with your statement regarding the Sikh management has no power of this. They have the power, with power comes responsibility. Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings. Without nurturing, we cant achieve anything as human beings or even Sikhs as general. Animals need direction and are trained to achieve there intended goals, humans are no different, humans require education to prosper in life. Our management has not nurtured our Sikh youth and infact the general sikh population. If there are no teachers how can a student learn ?
There is little use of shabads being voiced to the youth if they cant understand or even speak Punjabi
There is little use of keeping hair, if we don't understand its importance
There is little use of even being a Sikh if we completely don't understand Sikhism at all.

And this is across all the board, Sikhs don't wander like animals and become astray, its because they were not given direction to become a Sikh and a good human being.
Sikh's gurus were sent to teach us, yes us students and help nurture our spirits and lives to become a Sikh.
Same principle with Jesus and Muhammad.

Nature is nothing without nurturing it. And it is the responsibility of the real management to nurture our Sikh and help create a strong Sikh faith with core values which are represented worldwide.


Sikh means to learn, and currently we are students of Sikhism. The term 'Sikh' should not be handed out automatically without embracing the core values, and ones should be encouraged to travel upon that journey to become a Sikh.
The concept of becoming a Sikh should be this :
I ( Student )----- Must Learn ( Sikhi values )-----------> Sikh

Now the current system is this

Everyone is Sikh, Feel free to do anything you please because at the end, everyone will become a Sikh
We have effectively lowered our own standards of our own religion. But take this for food for thought.
Will God lower his standards for us to achieve Mukhti ?
Or do we have to raise our own standards for us to achieve God's unification and achieve mukhti ?

Our current Sikh management has completely mismanaged this concept.
We are all equal as human beings, but are our values which define a Sikh all equal, are they the same ?
We should not have it be an accepted norm to classify everyone as a Sikh without even being a Sikh to begin with.

Sikhs leaders should forget the formation of Khalistan, for now.
Concentrate on teaching us all, and carry the responsibility to nurture the youth of today and create good Sikhs.
Have plenty of teachers, young and old. Write plenty of books for us young guys would love to read about our history. Make documentaries, Release podcast that even a non Sikh could understand, in English.
Sikh needs to be nurtured, and for that to happen, the heads of Sikhi should take responsibility to nurture the rest of the Sikh body.


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Jan 1, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> All the problems are world wide and they are everywhere.
> To confine them to one place is ignorance because where child labour may not exist, then other problems of drugs and prostitution will, and vice versa



Lucky, I completely agree with your perspective and opinion, i think the thread should be renamed to current State of Sikhism.
I have just given my perspective of Sikhism from the west, from what i have seen. So forgive me if i do not know all the complex issues in India too, because I haven't lived in India enough to give a fair conclusion.
I encourage everyone on this thread to give there views from everywhere they are situated, West or East, South or North.


----------



## AmarvelliSinghMaur (Jan 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Just out of curiosity, where is it prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
> I think the divorce rate in Punjab is lower because it's not socially acceptable for a couple to divorce, even in cases of domestic violence. Although I agree in principle that casual sex and lack of committment are not virtuous qualities my personal opinion is that not allowing couples to divorce due to domestic violence is worse. I wouldn't say divorce is due to 'primiscuity and egotism' but a higher expectation (perhaps delusional) of quality of life. Westerners don't want to stay in a relationship that's not working. By the same token they can be less inclined to put committment behind working out their problems. Of course, these are generalisations and there are people who sit at either end of the spectrum and everywhere in between.
> 
> In the UK, 34% of marriages will end before the 20th wedding anniversary, which is at the lower end of your ball park. Source. OMG a source!
> ...



Ishna, although i haven't indulged myself personally in your discussion, I would like to add my own perspective concerning both of your view points.

Ishna, concerning your rights about women i completely agree. Women along with men should be respected, and they should be given equal respect and an equal platform of opportunity as men in our society and more importantly in our sangat.
I love women, in fact i have been raised in a house hold where Im the only male, and it maybe my own gift of opportunity that i have learnt the values of women which we don't not normally see in society.
Being raised by mom mainly in the absence of dad, as showed me how strong women can be, and few people can change that view of mine.
Having sisters, female friends has shown me there perspective of life. Yes our women have been wronged in the past, and is it our fault ?
Yes it is, but we have the chance as a society to rectify those mistakes, and give them equal consideration as males.
Are women forever going to think, are they ever going to treat us better ?
Ever ?
Because they are right, and we as a society need to change.
Respect women, and the chances are they will respect you. Mutual love comes from respect, and if we respect one another we can love one another.

Women are given more rights and freedom compared to the last 50 years. But to all women it is important that freedom and the power they are given shouldn't be abused.
True power should be in response to a need not a desire. 
Women's power of equality should be used to promote respect, not revengeful or selfish acts.
Just because women in the west can do anything, doesn't mean those acts are morally right. Same with men, just because were free to do anything doesn't mean its right to. Because in the end we will pay with our own karma and that's when God has control over our fate.
Womens equality shouldn't be abused but should give them an equal platform to achieve there goals and create a positive effect on there families, and more importantly in society.
Same with men, our power as individuals should be used for good, and we shouldn't abuse them.
This is for men and women, live your lives with a responsibility to create a positive impact on our society, and help keep marriages strong, and ensure our children show those positive values which they have learned from there parents nurturing.


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 1, 2013)

> We are all born in to Sikh families or maybe others may not. We are given the start



No, we are given a lot of contradicting information we have to forget, before we start



> Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings.



It is the fault of the elder generation that Sikhism is in the state it is in today. Elders have used Sikhism as a tool to justify traditional ritualistic beliefs. The magnificence and unique facets of Sikhism are overlooked in favour of easier and better ways to 'worship' God rather than emulate God. A true Sikh elder would be wise, inclusive, aware of the benefits of understanding, over the pitfalls or ritual. They would not care about public opinion, only the truth. However, most elders are merely spin doctors, making sure what should be seen is seen.



> Animals need direction and are trained to achieve there intended goals



In the wild, animals just exist, using all the natural gifts they were born with. They do not need to be trained to live, and neither do people, understanding is the key to wisdom. Animals have it in bulk, humans have to find it. 



> Everyone is Sikh, Feel free to do anything you please because at the end, everyone will become a Sikh
> We have effectively lowered our own standards of our own religion



It is strange that everyone is a Sikh, but I have yet to meet one. 



> Or do we have to raise our own standards for us to achieve God's unification and achieve mukhti ?



Yes, we could have a standards enforcement team to make sure these standards are respected. We would not want any undesirables trying to achieve unification and mukti, the cheek of these people. 



> Our current Sikh management has completely mismanaged this concept.
> We are all equal as human beings, but are our values which define a Sikh all equal, are they the same ?
> We should not have it be an accepted norm to classify everyone as a Sikh without even being a Sikh to begin with.



Sikhism, in case you possibly missed it, is about inclusion, about an attitude, an air, a take on life, it is about being a Sikh and living by Sikh values. I do not think many of the Muslims and Hindus that fought by the side of the Tenth Guru would appreciate being told they did not qualify. I am sure in their hearts they were Sikhs, and understood the Sikh way of life. 



> Concentrate on teaching us all, and carry the responsibility to nurture the youth of today and create good Sikhs.
> Have plenty of teachers, young and old. Write plenty of books for us young guys would love to read about our history. Make documentaries, Release podcast that even a non Sikh could understand, in English.
> Sikh needs to be nurtured, and for that to happen, the heads of Sikhi should take responsibility to nurture the rest of the Sikh body.



its not about history, podcasts, its actually very simple, just live truthfully, be aware of the path ahead, and allow yourself to be guided across.


----------



## Parma (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.*



AmarvelliSinghMaur said:


> First Parma, I apologise for the late reply, iv just been busy with revision for my up comming exams. I hope everyone in the forum is good, and everyone will have a sucessful and happy new year.
> 
> Now Parma, I agree to some aspect of your post as it has highlighted a key concept in the journey to knowledge, but however i disagree with your ideology concerning it.
> I am 18 years old and I'm learning, no doubt about that, im a student and i more than anyone appreciate the power of knowledge.
> ...


 
My reply is a bit lame sorry but I have been through this discussion with many forum members in the past! So good luck to you! I really dont feel like explaining further it has been done so many times now in other ways through other threads! I think I will take time out like Vouthon ji this year, unless I come across something that really interests me. Gurfathe! Happy New Year! Sat Sangat ji!

You; Parma i completely disagree with your statement regarding the Sikh management has no power of this

Me; They are not doing a good job then if they have the power! They are not stopping people opening up dera's they can not even form a decent committe without in fighting! Why is everyone not wearing the 5 k's? They control the budgetry systems and employ a few gangs to get their ideals across! 

You; They have the power, with power comes responsibility. Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings
Me; Even kabir was given the cold shoulder by the brahmins of the time, the better class of people as you are saying sikhism is exclusive and not inclusive is that the guru and student you wish to pursue an Ideal that even kabir rejected and with this style of thinking our religion would have suffered a lot of kabir work that is included in the Guru Granth Sahib
You; If there are no teachers how can a student learn ?
Me; There is always a teacher waheguru, that is the concept you dont understand. A gianni explaining a shabad to you is totally different to waheguru. A gianni is not a guru just a person with knowledge on the shabad!


----------



## Kamala (Jan 2, 2013)

Kalyug ka kirpa.. not surprised..


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 2, 2013)

> A gianni is not a guru just a person with knowledge on the shabad!



this is not a given............:sippingcoffee:


----------



## linzer (Jan 5, 2013)

Ishna ji,
This is a good question. I wonder the same thing myself.
Just out of curiosity, where is it prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
I think the divorce rate in Punjab is lower because it's not socially acceptable for a couple to divorce, even in cases of domestic violence.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/39594-the-current-state-of-sikhism-west-3.html
Doesn't anyone have a response?
Come on folks if this was about meat the thread would be ten pages long by now.lol


----------



## linzer (Jan 7, 2013)

It seems greed isn't just a problem in the West.   I think bad taste runs a real close second here.





Golden appeal: Wealthy Datta Phuge has splashed out £14,000 on a solid gold shirt to make sure he's a 24 karat hit with women in central India


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-shirt-GOLD-impress-ladies.html#ixzz2HJCL2Dqn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Sorry I just couldn't resist.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2013)

Bad taste? No it is an economic and social investment. He is not kidding himself.


That is not exactly about the state of Sikhism in the west. But it makes a relevant point. Don't you think however that there are marriageable women everywhere in the world, and their families, who are of a mindset. Marry for economic security, and the richer the better. Afterwards, everything else can fall into place. If it does not... oh well...  you have the money. What do you think is on the minds of all the women who have married Donald Trump since his first divorce? They all know they will bite the dust as soon as he tires of them, but they will walk away with jewelry and a bank account. Maybe cynicism and greed describe the problem with Sikhi in the West and in the East, and with a whole bunch of other religions too.


----------

