# Global Perspectives In Science And Sikh Religion



## Prof Hardev Singh Virk (Dec 10, 2008)

Global Perspectives in Science and Sikh Religion


  Introduction


  Human life is based on the interaction of physical, cultural and even religious forms of life.  Man is part of nature.  Human mind has access to reality through four modes of knowledge: sensory experience, discursive cognition, intuition, and revelation.  In the first two modes the subject-object duality remains intact.  Hence the religious experience, which transcends this distinction, does not belong to the realm of these modes.  While mysticism involves intuition, spiritualism bases its self-certifying validity on revelation.  The revealed word has no transcendental source, but is immanent in the cosmos and is revealed to and heard by the sages.  This is how the Vedas were revealed as shrutis.

  Religion and Science are both engaged in the exploration of Ultimate Reality.  The field of religion concerns consciousness and its flux in molding the destiny of man.  Science explores the nature or its manifestation through the material world.  It starts from gross matter and moves toward subtle consciousness pervading in the material world.  The modern science, namely, quantum mechanics has brought consciousness into the frame of reference of experimental and theoretical physics.

  Retreat of Religion and Dominance of Science


  The conflict between Science and Religion started after Renaissance in Europe.  Both moral and intellectual revulsion against religion took place in the mind of the western man and his mental energies were diverted toward natural sciences.  Diderot, in his Encyclopaedia, encouraged men to follow Natural Science in preference to Theology.  Newtonian world-view gave birth to the mechanical philosophy of Nature and the Religion was dethroned from the realm of western man's life' Cartesian philosophy stressed that reality was knowable to man through senses and intuition; hence revelation and mysticism have no role to play.  Reality was considered to be of material nature and spirituality was considered to be reduntant.  Deterministic materialism, as such, was held to be the ultimate paradigm of material reality.  The Hegelian postulate that 'the real is rational, the rational real' implied another 'universal' which ignored spirituality and advocated historical materialism which led to advent of Marxism. Both  these philosophies, viz., Cartesian dualism and Marxian socialism dethroned religion from the world-view of modern man till mid of twentieth century.

  During the latter half of the 20th century, a crisis in this grand narrative of modern Western civilization has appeared.  The myth of reason, rationality, progress and historical materialism exploded.  The dialectic of class contradictions gave way to that of ethnic, ethno-religious and ethno-political contradictions in the context of growing tensions between secular nationalism and religious nationalism.  The technological inventions and the powers placed in the hands of the western man have been instrumental in giving him economic and political dominance over the eastern societies.  The collapse of the grand narrative of modern western civilization is the collapse of the metanarrative of reason.

  Science-Spirituality Dialogue 


  During the new millennium, the conflict between Science and Religion finds a retreat and we are living in a world where a dialogue between Science and Spirituality has become possible.  Paradoxically, the inadequacy of reason has been revealed by reason itself.  The Uncertainty Principle proposed by Werner Heisenberg has demolished the pyramid of deterministic philosophy based on Newtonian world-view.  Here was an impasse beyond which reason could not go in its understanding of reality.  The knower and the known are being seen as intertwined, mutually inclusive and not mutually exclusive.  It is being felt that the traditional (dualistic, atomistic, reductionist) view is incapable of revealing the essence of reality.  A new 'holistic' view is needed to see Reality in its concrete wholeness – a view that would see the whole in the parts and the parts in the whole, envisioned as dynamic becoming and not static being.  This necessitates what is termed as "the paradigm shift" or the breakthrough of a new problematic in our thinking.  This would not mean a negation of reason but going beyond it, to the realm of spirit.  The notion of spirit in this sense would be the foundational principle of the global civilization of the third milliennium analogous to the way in which 'reason' was the foundational postulate of the modern Western civilization after renaissance in Europe.

  Post Modern Era: An Age of Golbalization


  Due to a large number of technological advances in the post-modern era, the world is rapidly shrinking. Globalization has become the buzzword everywhere.  Some profound changes are taking place which are distinctly different from the modern era. Obviously, there is rethinking and reconfiguration of modern era ideologies causing many tensions, confusions and insecurities.  Post modern era can be described as an era of conflict and anxiety.  For this shrinking and volatile world, there is a dire need of one universal religion.  Inter-faith dialogue and global perspectives of science – spirituality dialogue have become of utmost importance in the post modern era.

  Post-modernism has questioned the empirical methods of the modern era to search for the absolute reality.  It contends that ultimate reality can never be found through senses and scientific instruments.  According to Lyotard, scientific and rationalist discourses of the modern era have lost their legitimacy during the post-modern times.  Quantum physics and chaos theory are some prime examples to demonstrate that science cannot make reliable predictions.  Truth and reality transcends the obvious.

  Global Perspectives in Science and Sikh Religion


  Recent advances in both experimental and theoretical physics have established that quantum theory supports the idea of a cosmic spirit pervading the cosmos and inter-relationship of individuals in world society (parts and wholes). Roger Penrose in his book, Shadows of the Mind, has tried to establish the role of consciousness in new physics which looks beyond quantum theory.  In the chapter, 'Structure of the Quantum World', he probes the limitations of quantum theory to describe physical reality.  Earlier, EPR paradox brought into focus the limitations of quantum theory: "The quantum-mechanical description of reality given by the wave function is not complete or, in other words, when the operators corresponding to two physical quantities do not commute, the two quantities cannot have simultaneous reality." EPR paradox was explained by John Bell in his famous theorem implying some hidden variables. Theoretical predictions of Bell's theorem have been verified by Aspect Experiments.  The implications of Bell's theorem and its experimental findings are staggering.  They have established the interplay of consciousness and the physical world and changed our world-view where the notion of an objective world is in conflict with quantum theory.  The inter-relation of human consciousness and the observed world is obvious in Bell's theorem.  What we call physical reality, the external world, is shaped to some extent, by human thought.  This train of thought was led further by David Bohm who proposed that the information of the entire universe is contained in each of its parts.  For Bohm, order and unity are spread throughout the universe in a way which escapes our senses.  We are living in a holographic universe.  The world is an indivisible whole.  

  Similar sentiments were expressed by John Donne, a mystic poet, in his poem during 17th century : "No man is an island, entire of itself, everyman is a piece of the continent; if a clod is washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind."

  Universal nature of scientific laws is well known, we have Lorentz invariance of physical laws of nature.  Natural phenomenon is governed by four basic forces or interactions.  Recent theories established the unification of basic forces which is confirmed by experiments.  It is hoped that Grand Unification theories in Science may influence our thinking in cultural and religious domains also.

  Global perspectives in Science find its echo in the philosophy of Sikh religion, founded by Guru Nanak during fifteen century in India.  It has some parallelism with renaissance and reformation movements in Europe.  Guru Nanak challenged the orthodox ideas of Indian society based on Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.  Sikh philosophy as expounded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the Holy Book of the Sikhs, is unique in its epistemology.  It rejects myths, rituals and dogma; as a consequence it has a universal appeal for humankind irrespective of its religious and cultural affiliations.  In the holistic vision of Sikh philosophy, God, nature and man are integrally bound to each other.  According to Rev. H L Bradshaw, "Sikh religion is a universal world faith, a message for all men.  The religion preached by Guru Nanak is the faith of the New Age.  The other religions contain the truth but the Sikh religion contains the fullness of truth."

  Sikh religion is compatible with modern science in its approach to cosmology, nature of reality, relation of microcosm to macrocosm and consciousness.  Sikh religion believes in transcendental nature of reality as enunciated in SGGS: "In this realm, one sees but without the eyes; one listens but without the ears, one walks but without the feet; one works but without the hands; one speaks but without the tongue; thus attaining life in death.  O Nanak, one meets the God after realisation of the divine law."

  Sikh religion advocates dual nature of reality, transcendental and immanent.  God himself transforms into creation, changing his nirguna form (energetic state) to sarguna form (material state). Space and time were created at the epoch of Big-Bang and creation process has occurred several times.  The universe was created out of sunya phase (cosmic void) billions of years ago.  There are millions and billions of stars, solar systems and galaxies in the universe and it is difficult to account for the whole system.

  Guru Nanak discards the Vedantic concept of reality which considers this universe as an illusion or Maya. The Sikh view-point is: "Real are Thy Continents; Real is the Universe; Real are these Forms and material objects; Thy doings are real, O Lord." Truth is considered supreme in all religions but the Sikh religion lays more stress on truthful living than on truth: "Truth is high but higher still is truthful living". Hence the Sikh religion does not condemn the worldly life as maya (illusion).  Reality is perceived in a holistic mode in both microcosm and macrocosm.  Guru Nanak has identified the manifest reality with nature: "Nanak, the beneficent Lord alone is true, and He is revealed through His Nature".

  The need of the hour is a dialogue between Science and Spirituality.  It will be most appropriate to promote Global Perspectives of Science and Spirituality with special reference to the Sikh religion.

  Acknowledgement:
  This Academic Paper was part of a Project on Science and Spirituality submitted in 2004 to Interdisciplinary University of Paris, with funding from the Templeton Foundation of USA. The author is indebted to Dr Pranab Das, Principal Investigator and Program Director, Global Perspectives on Science and Spirituality (GPSS) and Chair, Department of Physics, Elon University,  USA for motivating the author for participation in this Global Competition. The author offers his sincere thanks to the Templeton Foundation for the Honorable Mention Award of 1000 Euros in the GPSS competition.


  Bibliography

  1.Contemporary Science and Religion in Dialogue: Challenges and Opportunities.  Job Kozhamthadam (Editor), ASSR Publications, Pune, 2002
  2.History and Philosophy of Science. H S Virk (Editor), Guru Nanak Dev University Press, Amritsar, 1988
  3.Understanding Quantum Physics. Michael A. Morrison, Prentice Hall, N.J. 1990
  4.The Post-Modern Condition: A Report on Knowledge. Lyotard J.F, University  of Minnesota Press, 1984.
  5.Sri Guru Granth Sahib (The Holy Book of the Sikh Religion), Golden Temple  Press, Amritsar, 2004.
  6.Shadows of the Mind. Roger Penrose, Oxford University, UK.
  7.The Tao of Physics. Fritzof Capra, Shambhala, Berkeley, 1976.
  8.Cosmology in Science & Religion (Punjabi). H S Virk, Singh Brothers, Amritsar, 1978.
  9.Modern Physics & Eastern Mysticism. Fritzof Capra, J. Transpersonal Psychology, 8(1), 20-40, 1976.
  10.Sikhism for Modern Man. Kapoor Singh, GND University Press, Amritsar, 1992.
  11.Liberating Sikhism from the Sikhs: Sikhism’s Potential for World Civilization, Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia, UNISTAR, Chandigarh, 2003. 
  12.Physics and Philosophy. W. Heisenberg, Allen & Unwin, 1963.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 20, 2008)

Recent advances in both experimental and theoretical physics have established that quantum theory supports the idea of a cosmic spirit pervading the cosmos and inter-relationship of individuals in world society (parts and wholes). Roger Penrose in his book, _Shadows of the Mind,_ has tried to establish the role of consciousness in new physics which looks beyond quantum theory.

As the age of knowledge and information retrieval advances the Sciences inspired by Philosophy and Spiritual Science will gain greater advances in learning of the nature and workings of the Universe. The tragedy is when Religion and Science both teachers and masters of knowledge and Wisdom are forces or submitted to the agendas of certain institutions or interests than society, scientists and the religious seeking to meet the exacting standards of an higher intellectual and spiritual plane of existentialism and simplified understanding of the complexities of the nature of man and his Universe.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 20, 2008)

Science loses ground and conflicts with Religion by its adherent and inconclusive citing of the theory of evolution. Religion states original primal man was not only formidable intelligent and governed by a divine conscience and realisation but were spiritually superhuman able to live by their senses and intuit one another’s feelings, for they had peace and love. 

The cross contamination caused by a misguided and innocent God fornicating with an animal and creating a breed only part human caused the advent of lesser mortals and canal natured beings. The bible cites this eventitude as the action of Adams innocent frolics in the Garden of Eden. This allegory adequately explains the disproportionately high incidence of similarity between man and animal and a cross breeding between humans resulting in little distinction between races other than aesthetics. 

A negative anti gravitational force seeks to retain man in his stupor and belief he has evolved from apes and monkeys. This not only emboldens subhuman’s and lends a false sense of evolutionary accomplishment but ensures man is oblivious to his primal higher superhuman spiritual nature impeding any advances he may be inspired to create to regain his former standing and stature. This theory is readily substantiated. Why it is not is reliant upon who is governing and requesting scientific studies to invalidate truth and endorse falsehood. Why this occurs relates to the advent of democracy, mob rule of the highest number than governance of reason and the assemblage of the wise. 

Breaking through this web of deceit and illusion is mans preset task as demagogues that sit in power are reluctant to relinquish that power and will dismantle the institution of religion, reduce to the standard of cattle remaining humanity and apply all devious measures to ensure man continues to struggle to maintain and sustain their evil reign. Love Humanity. . A deliberate engineered ploy to deter man from spiritual salvation for the profit of the empowered subhumans is the agenda of modern day politics.

YouTube - The God Theory

Peace and Truth are greatly remiss by their absence. Upon gaining truth man ceases to question and is released


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## Sinister (Jul 8, 2009)

*Jeeti johal ji,*

*what is your understanding of evolution? what i want to know is, what you know about it? at the molecular level, at the macro level? do you beleive that it is for explaining the origin of man or is the primary goal to display the role of phenotypes and genes in the progression of a species in a biosphere?*




jeetijohal said:


> Science loses ground and conflicts with Religion by its adherent and inconclusive citing of the theory of evolution.


 
Science loses no ground because it is not built on the primitive precept of winning and losing ground (it is not built to be a competitor to religion…it only competes with itself). Good science is interested in objectively presenting observations thus it can only lose ground to newer science. Uncertainty and Certainty are two extremes… a good scientist is not receptive to the primitive dichotomy of either certainty or uncertainty but rather searching for a set of principles and theories that makes his existence (including those around him) more reliable (rather than more certain or uncertain). The theory of evolution is just that; a theory to add stability to our lives by providing knowledge of our origins (the theory emphasizes our oneness with nature). It unlocks the secrets of natural events that happen before us and increases the reliability of our future observations; this reliable knowledge is extrapolated to develop technology to benefit all of humanity. 





jeetijohal said:


> Religion states original primal man was not only formidable intelligent and governed by a divine conscience and realisation but were spiritually superhuman able to live by their senses and intuit one another’s feelings, for they had peace and love.


 
Intelligence, peace and love is not exclusive to a past utopian state of a ‘primal- superhuman’; it exists everywhere, predominant in today’s societies; if one has the patience to observe like a true scientist they would reconcile this fact.




jeetijohal said:


> The cross contamination caused by a misguided and innocent God fornicating with an animal and creating a breed only part human caused the advent of lesser mortals and canal natured beings. The bible cites this eventitude as the action of Adams innocent frolics in the Garden of Eden. This allegory adequately explains the disproportionately high incidence of similarity between man and animal and a cross breeding between humans resulting in little distinction between races other than aesthetics.


 
This allegory explains nothing, rather it just tells us something. If at the end of the story you end up with more questions than answers it is not much of an explanation. There is substantial proof that our ancestors were primates, but me trying to explain my position with any sort of argument would be (I have the feeling) fruitless. You probably have not yet developed the capacities to understand the intricacies of scientific literature, which is why you believe what you believe. Nor, do I believe, you display any desire to pursue a genuine understanding, starting with a non-biased perspective.





jeetijohal said:


> A negative anti gravitational force seeks to retain man in his stupor and belief he has evolved from apes and monkeys. This not only emboldens subhuman’s and lends a false sense of evolutionary accomplishment but ensures man is oblivious to his primal higher superhuman spiritual nature impeding any advances he may be inspired to create to regain his former standing and stature.


 
Quite the contrary. The theory of evolution unites man with every living breathing creature on the planet. A newfound respect, love and unity is developed for all of those who understand the interconnectedness of our surroundings. A vile arrogance develops in those who believe themselves to be separate, beyond or above nature, leading to rather destructive outcomes in society. The Cherokee tribes of America understood this well, as did many other great civilizations… they made proverbs that sweetened the mind “All things share the same breath – the beast, the tree, the man, the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports”.





jeetijohal said:


> This theory is readily substantiated. Why it is not is reliant upon who is governing and requesting scientific studies to invalidate truth and endorse falsehood. Why this occurs relates to the advent of democracy, mob rule of the highest number than governance of reason and the assemblage of the wise.


 
and im sure you would conveniently fall into the ‘assemblage of the wise’, or would likely nominate your preferences and push such responsibilities on others. Such childish sentiments and divisions are what make this world more divisible and a little less livable.




jeetijohal said:


> Breaking through this web of deceit and illusion is mans preset task as demagogues that sit in power are reluctant to relinquish that power and will dismantle the institution of religion, reduce to the standard of cattle remaining humanity and apply all devious measures to ensure man continues to struggle to maintain and sustain their evil reign. Love Humanity. . A deliberate engineered ploy to deter man from spiritual salvation for the profit of the empowered subhumans is the agenda of modern day politics.


 

There is no deceit and illusion, only misunderstanding and profound confusion on your part. This is not a power struggle or social engineering ploy at work; the agency at work is truth and sometimes people cant handle the truth. The inevitable march of history has shown only to strengthen the love of humanity, mature our civilization and make us all the wiser (I think).




jeetijohal said:


> Peace and Truth are greatly remiss by their absence. Upon gaining truth man ceases to question and is released


 
the day a man ceases to question, he ceases to learn, it is the day he no longer exists.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 8, 2009)

Dearest Respected Sinister Ji,

The intricate complexity of the universe, of life, living and man. Science and Religion are paths of study overrun by factions seeking to use them as weapons than respect them as tools of examination for the purposes of resolving truth and the purpose, if any of existence. I will not argue with you in any way. Yes there is love, and faith and caring hearts in the world. I am a revolutionary, we must not stop in our quest to re-establish Utopia. It is a crusade, at times implausible and yet at the end of our fingertips should we overcome the inhibitors within and barriers without to gain it. We are parents, we create the best home environment for our child, and contribute as much time and effort towards creating a better peaceful society. I don’t mean to be unduly argumentative, simply to bring food for deep insight and thought to the attention of intellectuals, philosophers and seekers of truth. Please, and sincerely forgive me if I seem a tad confrontational, it is frustrating to see a perfect world, know the obstacles are so readily felled, realise what our Guru’s endured to bring about the formation of this liberty and ourselves do nothing towards the effort. This evolution is nonsense, as is the big bang theory. They have a degree of validity but are misinterpreted and lost in translation. Truth is a light, a pinnacle, a height one must climb many precarious mounts to gain. It does not bend or bow for any man. The enlightened perspective is not the view of unawakened, for the unself-realised man has yet to be born, he exists reacting to his environment on a day to day basis. His thoughts wander to no greater boundaries than his day to day duties and tasks. From conception he must reconcile his two parenting genes, reconcile with his world, his fate, the dual forces seeking to control him and ultimately to a universe as profound and great as his level of consciousness perceives. It is written and oft cited by my uncle, it requires seven ages for an animal to gain human form, yet requires not too great an effort to reduce man into a warmongering carnal beast. This is the true nature of mans consciousness. You are right. Man in equipoise and with peace of mind can rarely find any fault or in the world, rather the flaw is within our minds, an anger, a raging wrathfulness, it is true. The world becomes as a reactive reflection to whatever emotion we convey. Thermodynamic energy, whether positive and fragrant, or toxic generated by stress and internal blockage emits and attracts what it contains within. Nanak Dukiya Sab Sansar. This phrase is oft quoted, and I always say ‘’Why, magar kyun dukhi hai sansar?’’ on a quest to find what ailed The Lords people I found a horrifying engineered attempt by powers to ensure the world remains struggling to feed a chain of supply of the demand created by a wanting peoples. Locally in our family, amongst our friends it is amazing how much peace if created by reaching out and leading people to truth via understanding of the world, the self and the purpose of this union. I don’t seek to be challenged, I am often awed by the level of knowledge in differing modes of communication, language, scientific, religious or metaphysical gauged from our elders and the young alike. Many turn to The Waheguru for assistance, some seek to bring peace to others to lighten what must be ah heavy load for the Great Parent. Through trials and turbulent times we lose faith only to regain it from the comforting words of the peace makers about us. Any great mind or crusader seeking to tackle the forces that oppress and malign humanity have been horrendously treated and yes, I feel it a personal duty to seek out these malignant forces and do my utmost to put them right, and it is effected quite easily. Why would anyone argue about religion or science. They are both valid institutions, they do so because there is anger in the hearts of the people, and most being not entirely unlike me, seek an avenue to vent this anger, take hold of a powerful tool, religion, science, politics or philosophy to make their point. Science or religion cannot be owned, if rightly understood. They require respect for their attempts to find truth and simplicity in the mysterious complexity of the universe and within each mind. Yet some take sides as battalions and battle not issues towards finding new insight, but argue for arguments sake. I feel this is wrong. The peace maker reconciles, the renegade divides. Religions are very divisive, yet I feel we are able to overcome our fear of other faiths and unite as one people with differing cultures, ultimately at the latter end of this era of transmigration, religious should have greater cultural similarities and truths than distinctions and that is the goal. The wise seek to collate one truth from the various interpretations of it, the foolish seek to find loopholes or denigrate values for their own inner fears of being unable to attain what they may deem at times high or exacting standards. Understanding of the motivations of others assists in demystifying their agenda. The good are afforded with the generosity to be understanding and tolerant of the limitations of others around them. Internet forums are debating grounds, yet I have found no theory that cannot be deciphered and any hypothesis unable to be proven cannot then be reasonably argued about. Mutations are created by cross breeding. Stem cell research finds the master cells determining the creation of man and are able to manipulate these cells to make laboratrtory humans for researching and testing upon. Some find this offensive and barbaric. If the human has no spirit then the testing for use on normal humans is invalid, if the humanoids are spirited then it is a gross indecency and evil to generate humans for the purposes of curing diseases. A universal view avails the observer of a lack of morality in the governance of mankind. A lack of love and humanity is the problem. The world is ruled by demagogues, implacable and unappeasable in their sinfulness. It is a dilemma to cure as most humans cease battle upon reaching the first milestone of peace, thus Utopia remains ungained insofar. I am not wrong, I do not argue over trifling data inconsequential to the greater truth. In searching for my lost peace of mind and escaping demons that seem to be plaguing many others I will find my way back to light and hopefully have lit the path for others. I don’t mean to be overtly confrontational, and yes I fear the world a little, closeted away here in Woodford. Life is horrid, insanity is comforting and reality frightening, sometimes insanity becomes a comfy blanket, makes life seem a horrid nightmare we will awaken from one day to be safely placed back in the hub and peace of our former lives. Dorothy found the great wizard of oz and found him to be insaner than herself, and Who Am I. A sobering thought...JJ. :star:


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## Sinister (Jul 9, 2009)

Jeeti johal ji,

Good to hear from you. 

I think I understand the overarching problem with respect to your beliefs in evolutionary science. If I were to summarize your post and address the crux of your concerns maybe we will come to a better understanding of both our worldviews (which at the time I believe are fairly polar but will coalesce given enough time and effort).

You believe that there exists a propensity for people to use evolutionary science as a ‘weapon to denigrate’ the holy scriptures of, one would assume, the Abrahamic tradition, and along with it the Morality they teach (or enforce) because of their own insecurities. (to which I say, yes, such people may indeed exist) 

And if this is the case (which I believe it to be), how is attacking or refuting evolutionary theory with arguments going to stop them? (aside from giving agents of opposition more cannon fodder to denigrate your strong beliefs further)?

Is it Stubbornness? (“because an air jab wont win you a boxing match, it’ll just tire you out”)

Unless, of co{censored}, you have significant doubts in the theory yourself…this may have been the reason you labeled it a ‘stupor belief’ designed somehow for binding men rather than liberating them…to which I showed considerable difference. 

If this is about doubt in the theory itself, on some empirical level (which I have feeling it might also be), then the issue can be resolved relatively easily.






jeetijohal said:


> The intricate complexity of the universe, of life, living and man. Science and Religion are paths of study overrun by factions seeking to use them as weapons than respect them as tools of examination for the purposes of resolving truth and the purpose, if any of existence.


 

Yes and no. to an extent at which you purpose…perhaps not. The existence of these factions and the level of their awareness about their own group consciousness are all debatable (but lets not get into that). A society organized around a monetary system will eventually lead to greed. Religion and “Technology” (science) will both be used negatively at times to attain power and money (as they always have in the past). Should we settle for this? Perhaps not…the solution lies in ending the monetary system but any good scholar will tell you the impossibility of such a task. In America we have a saying; ‘don’t hate the player, hate the game’. And that is how humanity can be both revolutionary and non-confrontational at the same time…it works wonders and it is embraced in the heart of all non-violent revolutionaries. 

Yet all this has no bearing on our discussion about the theory of evolution. Darwin published the famous transcript, “Origin of Species”, close to his deathbed (when he could have done it long before). Ironically, he was a deeply religious man and was always troubled with his findings as they were inconsistent with the popular belief system (Christian history as interpreted by Saint Thomas Aquinas et. al). Many of the other scientists that followed suit in Darwin’s footsteps had more than just monetary gain in their crosshairs. Countless paleontologists, anatomists, taxonomists, naturalists, biologists, physiologists, virologists, proteologists, ecologists and geneticists have dedicated entire lifetimes to the pursuit of noble causes all using evolutionary theory via natural selection as a basic framework to launch their studies and experiments (in the process they have proven the theory to be an indispensable part of science). To brush them off as agents of evil or as servants of evil is simply false and unfair. And I thought this worth mentioning in my last post.




jeetijohal said:


> I will not argue with you in any way. Yes there is love, and faith and caring hearts in the world. I am a revolutionary, we must not stop in our quest to re-establish Utopia. It is a crusade, at times implausible and yet at the end of our fingertips should we overcome the inhibitors within and barriers without to gain it. We are parents, we create the best home environment for our child, and contribute as much time and effort towards creating a better peaceful society. I don’t mean to be unduly argumentative, simply to bring food for deep insight and thought to the attention of intellectuals, philosophers and seekers of truth.


 
It is a worthy cause. Im going to be honest…I like you but the funny thing is I don’t know why.




jeetijohal said:


> Truth is a light, a pinnacle, a height one must climb many precarious mounts to gain. It does not bend or bow for any man. The enlightened perspective is not the view of unawakened, for the unself-realised man has yet to be born, he exists reacting to his environment on a day to day basis. His thoughts wander to no greater boundaries than his day to day duties and tasks. From conception he must reconcile his two parenting genes, reconcile with his world, his fate, the dual forces seeking to control him and ultimately to a universe as profound and great as his level of consciousness perceives. It is written and oft cited by my uncle, it requires seven ages for an animal to gain human form, yet requires not too great an effort to reduce man into a warmongering carnal beast.





jeetijohal said:


> This is the true nature of mans consciousness. You are right. Man in equipoise and with peace of mind can rarely find any fault or in the world, rather the flaw is within our minds, an anger, a raging wrathfulness, it is true. The world becomes as a reactive reflection to whatever emotion we convey.




Contention is not a continuous suspended state in a sane human being or even an enlightened one at that. Contention cannot motivate and without motivation we are not human. There has to be a careful balancing act in order to maintain a healthy mind and to ensure that we do not become placid and lethargic contention must leave us at times. 




jeetijohal said:


> Thermodynamic energy, whether positive and fragrant, or toxic generated by stress and internal blockage emits and attracts what it contains within.


 
I think your choices of words are confusing here. Thermodynamic relates to the transfer of heat energy…it cannot be positive/fragrant or toxic, in a scientific sense it cannot be generated by stress. Let us not confuse terminology…unless you have another personalized definition of the term to which I know nothing about. 




jeetijohal said:


> Nanak Dukiya Sab Sansar. This phrase is oft quoted, and I always say ‘’Why, magar kyun dukhi hai sansar?’’ on a quest to find what ailed The Lords people I found a horrifying engineered attempt by powers to ensure the world remains struggling to feed a chain of supply of the demand created by a wanting peoples. Locally in our family, amongst our friends it is amazing how much peace if created by reaching out and leading people to truth via understanding of the world, the self and the purpose of this union. I don’t seek to be challenged, I am often awed by the level of knowledge in differing modes of communication, language, scientific, religious or metaphysical gauged from our elders and the young alike. Many turn to The Waheguru for assistance, some seek to bring peace to others to lighten what must be ah heavy load for the Great Parent. Through trials and turbulent times we lose faith only to regain it from the comforting words of the peace makers about us. Any great mind or crusader seeking to tackle the forces that oppress and malign humanity have been horrendously treated and yes, I feel it a personal duty to seek out these malignant forces and do my utmost to put them right, and it is effected quite easily.




Well that’s just dandy. Don’t quite that day job.  This is the part where you laugh a little. 




jeetijohal said:


> Why would anyone argue about religion or science. They are both valid institutions, they do so because there is anger in the hearts of the people, and most being not entirely unlike me, seek an avenue to vent this anger, take hold of a powerful tool, religion, science, politics or philosophy to make their point. Science or religion cannot be owned, if rightly understood. They require respect for their attempts to find truth and simplicity in the mysterious complexity of the universe and within each mind. Yet some take sides as battalions and battle not issues towards finding new insight, but argue for arguments sake. I feel this is wrong.


 
As do I.




jeetijohal said:


> The peace maker reconciles, the renegade divides. Religions are very divisive, yet I feel we are able to overcome our fear of other faiths and unite as one people with differing cultures, ultimately at the latter end of this era of transmigration, religious should have greater  cultural similarities and truths than distinctions and that is the goal.


 
Not only the religious but also all holy humans should have that as their goal.




jeetijohal said:


> The wise seek to collate one truth from the various interpretations of it, the foolish seek to find loopholes or denigrate values for their own inner fears of being unable to attain what they may deem at times high or exacting standards. Understanding of the motivations of others assists in demystifying their agenda.




People have various motivations, many times both good and bad motivations coexist…many times it is a gray area and it cannot be simplified into the dichotomy good vs evil…such is human nature.

The ‘collation of truth’, as poetic a statement as one could make, comes about through a discipline of intense examination and scrutiny.

‘A false belief may be judged harmless and even pleasurable, as may be the case with the benevolent light in which most of us see our minor foibles, few would consider interfering. But clearly there are times when people are dangerously wrong, and we foolishly or ‘unfoolishly’ feel the need to flex our muscles to show someone ‘truth’. 

Some feel as certain that anyone who does not believe in their deity, their version of the inevitable march of history, or their views of the human psyche deceives himself (the same way an anorexic or alcoholic or a schizophrenic might). Frequently, the more improbable their own views, the stronger is their need to see the world as divided up into those who perceive the self-evident and those who persist in deluding themselves.

Aiding the victims of such imputed self-deception can be hard to resist for true believers and enthusiasts of every persuasion. If they come to believe that all who do not share their own views are not only wrong but actually know they are wrong in one part of their selves that keeps the other in the dark, they can assume that it is an act of altruism to help the victimized, deceived part see through the secrecy and the self-deception. Zealots can draw on their imputing self-deception to nonbelievers to nourish any tendency they might have to a conspiracy theory. If they see the self—their own and that of others—as a battleground for a conspiracy, they may then argue that anyone who disagrees with them thereby offers proof that his mind has been taken over by the forces they are striving to combat.’ (previous post I have made)

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=19366 (Painting Without A Canvas)Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network Painting Without A Canvas (Painting Without A Canvas)
 



jeetijohal said:


> The good are afforded with the generosity to be understanding and tolerant of the limitations of others around them. Internet forums are debating grounds, yet I have found no theory that cannot be deciphered and any hypothesis unable to be proven cannot then be reasonably argued about.




Some things are over my head…and I usually do not participate in such discussions… don’t you ever feel that? Or do you honestly believe that you can tackle every subject head on?




jeetijohal said:


> Mutations are created by cross breeding.


 
Define cross-breeding. Because all sexual reproduction is considered cross-breeding (geneticist terminology)…in which case you are right, mutations are created by crossbreeding. But a mutation can be either be beneficial or harmful.




jeetijohal said:


> Stem cell research finds the master cells determining the creation of man and are able to manipulate these cells to make laboratrtory humans for researching and testing upon.


 
They are called pluripotent stem cells and no laboratory human has ever been grown with one, nor does the scientific know-how exist at the moment.




jeetijohal said:


> Some find this offensive and barbaric. If the human has no spirit then the testing for use on normal humans is invalid, if the humanoids are spirited then it is a gross indecency and evil to generate humans for the purposes of curing diseases.


 
I’m not sure you understand. Stem cell research is not interested in developing full grown humans, just human tissues. To put into perspective, stem cells are currently being studied to fix tissue damage, not to produce humans to harvest their organs. ‘Humanoids’ are nothing more than science fiction.




jeetijohal said:


> A universal view avails the observer of a lack of morality in the governance of mankind. A lack of love and humanity is the problem. The world is ruled by demagogues, implacable and unappeasable in their sinfulness. It is a dilemma to cure as most humans cease battle upon reaching the first milestone of peace, thus Utopia remains ungained insofar. I am not wrong, I do not argue over trifling data inconsequential to the greater truth.


 
No data is inconsequential. All data and information is needed in understanding the greater truth.




jeetijohal said:


> In searching for my lost peace of mind and escaping demons that seem to be plaguing many others I will find my way back to light and hopefully have lit the path for others. I don’t mean to be overtly confrontational, and yes I fear the world a little, closeted away here in Woodford. Life is horrid, insanity is comforting and reality frightening, sometimes insanity becomes a comfy blanket, makes life seem a horrid nightmare we will awaken from one day to be safely placed back in the hub and peace of our former lives. Dorothy found the great wizard of oz and found him to be insaner than herself, and Who Am I. A sobering thought...JJ.





jeetijohal said:


>




Take care
Sinister.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 10, 2009)

Sinister Ji, Respectfully. I am open minded to all views in the vein that Truth Is Absolute, requiring cognisant aligning, discarding of self interests or stances caused by antagonism to find the ‘’Origin of Life’’ Listening and reading I find The scriptural testimony of life stemming from a singular cell proliferating, whilst remains in some measure, of its original form, chemical and spiritual constituents, transmutes into many life forms, races, species and creeds. Adams innocent fornication with the creatures in childlike imitations caused the spawn of part human, part animal creeds from the beginning, creating a battling contentious nature within this creed of matter dominating a will inclined to the purity of its spiritual part and impregnated essence. Evolutionist teach mankind as having achieved human form and evolved, Spirituality teaches mans desecration and contamination causing the ongoing disputes, discord and divisions, within him, his home, society and world. As a thinker and an intellectual, and a perfectionist, though falling short of perfection at times, would not in seeking to conceal such failings, demarcate the entire human race. Whilst understanding conquering the will leading man to arrogance, boastfulness and sin is a weary and arduous one, it is nonsensical to deride or berate the human race as having evolved from apes and pigs simply because a small section of it actually has and with its carnal contrivance and cunning cast the long suffering spiritually rich though monetarily impoverished and inherently moral humans into struggle for the implacable gains and lust for dominance and power that these miscreants are consumed and driven by. The path to spiritual liberation and Mukhti is hindered if deluded individuals console their psyches with the false and laughable knowledge that they are no longer apes but equal to men. The theory serves a group of people and a sector of the population, whilst doing a grave disservice to humanity and it’s Creator. It’s a subtly played Holy War reliant upon racial issues and unfamiliar aliens to support the brutish savagery illumined with wealth and power to veil the moral corruption and lack of authority over its counterparts, methinks. This is my view. ...JJ.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 10, 2009)

*Science & Faith*​ 
Sikhs believe in the natural, in the unbroken and unbreakable succession of cause and effect under the Will of Absolute Principle/Truth (Akal Purkh). To live under the Will of God is to accept the present as is. It is not liking or unliking the facts of the present (or a situation) but accepting it as Its Will. Guru Arjan in Raag Kanrha ponders;

ਅਨਿਕ ਪੂਜਾ ਮੈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਖੋਜੀ ਸਾ ਪੂਜਾ ਜਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵਾਸਿ ॥

_Anik pūjā mai baho biḏẖ kẖojī sā pūjā jė har bẖāvās._

I have studied countless ways of worship in all sorts of ways, but that alone is worship, which is pleasing to the Akal Purkh's Will. ------Guru Arjan, Raag Kanrha, AGGS, Page, 1304-7

Guru Nanak’s philosophy always teaches about seeking (searching/science) and spirituality/Divine knowledge as he ponders in Raag Malar and Guru Arjan about evolution IMHO in Raag Gauri;

ਖੋਜੀ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਾਦੀ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ ॥

_Kẖojī upjai bāḏī binsai ha▫o bal bal gur karṯārā._

The seeker comes forth, and the debater dies down; I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to the Guru, the Creator Akal Purkh. ------Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1255-6

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਭਏ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਾ ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਜ ਮੀਨ ਕੁਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਪੰਖੀ ਸਰਪ ਹੋਇਓ ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਹੈਵਰ ਬ੍ਰਿਖ ਜੋਇਓ ॥ਮਿਲੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸੈਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕਰਿਆ ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਰਭ ਹਿਰਿ ਖਰਿਆ ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸਾਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਇਆ ॥ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਭਇਓ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ॥ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ॥

_Kayee Janam Bha-ay Keett Patangaa, “Kayee Janam Meen Kurangaa, Kayee Janam Pankhee Sarap Hooeyoo, Kayee Janam Haivar Birkh Jooeyoo, Mil Jagdeesh Milan Kee Baree-aa, Chirankaal Eh Deh Sanjaree-aa, Kayee Janam Sail Gir Kariaa, Kayee Janam Garabh Hir Khariaa, Kayee Janam Saakh Kar Oupaaey-aa, Lakh Chauraasee Joan Bharmaaey-aa, Saadh Sung Bhaeo Janam Praapat, Kar Seva Bhaj Har Har Gurmat._

In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect. In so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer. In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake. In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. Now it is time to meet the Creator of the Universe. After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains; in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb. In so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves. You wandered through 8.4 million incarnations (evolution). Through the Sadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life. Do seva, selfless service; and vibrate the Akal Purkh's Name. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri Guareri, AGGS, Page, 176

Religion and science can co-exist with a little tolerance and rationality and mutual respect. Humans should enjoy the strides of science, while enjoying the comforts provided by being humble towards that unfathomable, incomprehensible Higher Power. 

There is no absolute scientific proof of the presence of The Infinite God; henceforth It’s subtle essence cannot be obtained by any one. Religion and science will always clash due to perceived insults to the research and rationality by non progressive individuals. Spirituality was the domain of the faith but lately science has developed with close alignment. God cannot be completely contained with in nature and therefore God’s existence is out side the science’s ability to weigh in. Scientists are not blind believers but make a critical analysis of the evidence, quite opposite to the religious approach based on blind faith and belief. On the other hand because something is vastly improbable, we need a God to explain it. Since we are profoundly ignorant about certain things we need to work on them like understanding the physiology of conscience to reduce human suffering of pain and depression. 

Can the religion stand up to the progress of science is the main question?

Science is the real redeemer. It will put honesty above hypocrisy; mental veracity above all belief. It will teach the religion of usefulness. It will destroy bigotry in all its forms. It will put thoughtful doubt above thoughtless faith. We know that science has given us all we have of value. Science is the only civilizer. It has freed the slave, clothed the naked, fed the hungry, lengthened life, given us homes and hearths, pictures and books, ships and railways, telegraphs and cables, engines that tirelessly turn the countless wheels, and it has destroyed the superstition.

Science and medical technology and knowledge has prolonged the average life span of humans in many countries. Does it mean that people are becoming more virtuous and God is blessing them back by extension in their life span?

*Conclusion;* 

Science ends, when reason fails, but spirituality is there all the time. One can be spiritual by subjugating the lower instincts of Lust, Anger, Greed, Attachment, and Ego with further development of the virtues of Truth, Compassion, Contentment, and Faith in the existence of Higher Power, and Fortitude with evolvement of good moral character, which in itself is Divine Knowledge. 

Virinder S. Grewal


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