# Is Bisan Of Guru Gobind Singh Jee And Kabeer Jee Different?



## Archived_member2 (Mar 30, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth.
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| 
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu


Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.
ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥ 
ववा बार बार बिसन सम्हारि ॥ 
vavā bār bār bisan samĥār. 
WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord. 


ਬਿਸਨ ਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥ 
बिसन सम्हारि न आवै हारि ॥ 
Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10
Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you.  

May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.


Balbir Singh


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

Balbir ji,

This is actually very interesting the question you ask. I did not hear Dr. Haparl Singh Pannu's lecture. So would ask you two questions. Did Dr. HSP ji quote the line from Sri Guru Gobind Singh in his lecture? And did he use this as an example of how Guru Gobind Singh was emphasizing the Oneness of God and not underscoring a different, perhaps more Vedantic understanding.

Some attribute a Hindu  meaning to the Dasam Granth? On the basis of that they question Guru Gobind's authorship. You of course know this. 

My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on *the* Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways. 

Your question, again, is very interesting.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Mar 31, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Question "Did Dr. HSP ji quote the line from Sri Guru Gobind Singh in his lecture?"
Yes. He did.

Second question "And did he use this as an example of how Guru Gobind Singh was emphasizing the Oneness of God and not underscoring a different, perhaps more Vedantic understanding."
No. He did not emphasize Oneness of God.

Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu Jee may be a blessed person on whom God showered His Grace giving him Darshan in a special Form. Many people seek God's Darshan as Kishan or Bishan. Pannu Jee explained that Kishan and Bishan are Lalloo Panjoo. One may hear him confirming this at the beginning of twenty-seventh minute in his lecture. Please click the following link.
Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu Dasam Granth Sahib Seminar, Sacramento, Ca

I have not found the word Panjoo in Mahaan Kosh, the punjabi dictionary. Perhaps Sikhs need further guidance from Pannu Jee.

Quote "Some attribute a Hindu meaning to the Dasam Granth? On the basis of that they question Guru Gobind's authorship."
Some may try attributing a stupid meaning to the Dasam Granth, to prove that their religion is stupidity. Wisdom is not a religious person.
Understanding Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Hymns is possible with growing consciousness alone, I feel.

Quote "My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways."
In my observation, Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not use the number three nor Guru Arjan Dev Jee limited Lord within the number one in His Vaak.

**************

Can someone please say something about the curiosity? Do Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'?


Balbir Singh


----------



## Astroboy (Mar 31, 2008)

Here are two quotes about Vishnu (Bishan) by Nanak V and Kabeer:-

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ मोहिआ ॥
Barahmā bisan mahāḏė&shy;o mohi&shy;ā.
She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
कबीर बैसनो हूआ त किआ भइआ माला मेलीं चारि ॥
Kabīr baisno hū&shy;ā ṯa ki&shy;ā bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā mālā mėlīŉ cẖār.
Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas?
*Devotee Kabir*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2008)

Balbir ji

Thank you for the link. Very thoughtful of you and I will listen and get back. Good topic.


----------



## pk70 (Mar 31, 2008)

Balbir Singh ji

In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places.( Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh) here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods.
The comparision seems out of context.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 1, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Quote "In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
Please provide a reference from the reverend Gurus where they have explained  that Bisan is the creator. I will be grateful.

Quote "Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh."
Ego believes all that it has not experienced as Truth.
Truth is to experience, not to believe.

Quote " . . . here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods."
Guru Gobind Singh Jee never said 'Bisan is Hindu God'.
Those who have convinced weak-minded people that Bisan is Hindu may be strong fanatics.

Quote "The comparision seems out of context."
Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though.


Balbir Singh


----------



## pk70 (Apr 1, 2008)

Balbir Singh jio

Sorry to say, again we are in disagreement.


Quote "In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
Please provide a reference from the reverend Gurus where they have explained that Bisan is the creator. I will be grateful

Respectfully I have to explain what I meant. As you have put a question “May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.

*I was just referring to the use of words like Bisan, Ram, Brahama. They are used in Gurbani in both ways. One for The Creator and the other for well established Hindu Gods/Avtar  as well.  Here are the following examples where Satguru Nanak uses Bisan in the same sense Guru Gobind Singh ji used as per your quote.*


*ਤੀਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਏ ਵੇਸਾ 839*
*ਤ੍ਰਿਆਖਹਿ ਬਰਮੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਇੰਦ ॥26  0 Jap Ji*

* Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar*

* ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ (1279)*

*In the following Guru waak  use of “Ram” is quite contrary to the above  use ( GGSJI 1279.), I mean it is used for The Creator, see below*

*ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ ॥37 Japji*

*Sir I also I refer to Namjap ji’s post where Kabir ji has used the same word ‘Bisan” for Hindu Avtar/God  as well.*

Quote "Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh."
Ego believes all that it has not experienced as Truth.
Truth is to experience, not to believe.

*I have expressed my opinions; you have the right to have your opinions about the “Truth” Obviously we disagree  about” the Truth “strongly if I may say this!
*
Quote " . . . here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods."
Guru Gobind Singh Jee never said 'Bisan is Hindu God'.
Those who have convinced weak-minded people that Bisan is Hindu may be strong 
fanatics.

*As I said, you have the right to have your views; however, I wouldn’t stoop low to call people fanatics unless they act like fanatics.
*

Quote "The comparison seems out of context."
Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though.


*As explained above, same “RAM” word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator.  I am sorry I have to disagree with you on all points you pointed out.


*


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 1, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
I could not find one instance where Gurdev has called Bisan the creator. Please let all know which Baabaa has convinced people that Bisan is the creator, or it is your mind.
The biography of your profile at SPN states that you are writing articles, working on Gurbani of Satguru Naanak and His saroops. I request and hope that you take care quoting Guru Saahibaan.

Quote "I was just referring to the use of words like Bisan, Ram, Brahama. They are used in Gurbani in both ways."
Many live in duality that is why they understand two kinds of meanings from the Guru's Word.
The reverend Gurus choose one word to express the same attribute of God.

Bisan is Bisan. Bisan is not the creator who created Bisan. The same is with Raam, Brahma or Mahesh.

You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted
bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ] 
barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18
Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created.

Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.
Please let all know what has convinced you that they are Hindu.

Quote "I have expressed my opinions; you have the right to have your opinions about the "Truth" Obviously we disagree about” the Truth “strongly if I may say this!"
Surely one has the right to have his opinions and disagree but please do not mislead readers by saying that the true Gurus have said so. At least he can refer Guru's words confirming it.

Quote "As I said, you have the right to have your views; however, I wouldn’t stoop low to call people fanatics unless they act like fanatics."
What should one call a person who sticks with his views like Bisan is the creator? Gurdev has never explained this though.
By the way a dictionary describes the word fanatic in these words. "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

Quote "As explained above, same 'RAM' word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator."
I could not find one reference where Guru Saahibaan have called Raam, Muraar, Krishna, Sanwla the creator. Please provide one reference and oblige.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on *the* Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways.
> .



you are exactly right.  balbir "forgot" to post the complete line.  posting half of a line of gurbani can be extremely misleading.


ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (Waheguru).434.


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2008)

Thanks, 

To quote Betty Davis, in the film _Hurricane_ -- Hang on! We are in for a bumpy ride!

Forgot to say, Balbir always starts interesting threads. The bumpy ride is always a learning experience.


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2008)

Balbir ji

I know that you place great importance in specificity.  Would you then be more specific? Three questioins.

1. In Dasam Granth, Bisan (Bishan) is a reference to Vishnu. But a reference to Vishnu is not a simple matter. Vishnu had a habit of taking on more than a single form. Guru Arjan Dev Ang 1156 attributing this to the work and will of the Satguru​ 
                  ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
                  kott bisan keenae avathaar ||
                  He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu.​ 
Kishan is a reference to Krishna, and again this is not a simple matter. 

ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
                                  kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||
Kisan is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world? 
Guru Amar Das, Ang 559​ 
So would you be specific? Are you using the exact reference Kishan=Krishna and Bisan = Vishnu? Or are you thinking of them differently? If differently, what meaning are you using?

2. What are you saying by this sentence *Many people seek God's Darshan as Kishan or Bishan. 
*In this vaak Guru Nanaak is saying on Ang 1120 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ॥
                  brehamaa bisan mehaes dhuaarai ||
                  Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva stand at His Door;​ 
Guru Nanak is not saying that people seek dhuaarai in the form of Kishan or Bishan. So your  sentence sounds strange. Would you say this a different way -- Can you rephrase it? Thank you if you would. So I can understand your meaning.

3. Why did you compare a bani of Sri Gobind Singh with the bani of Kabeer only? There are numerous references to Bisan (Vishnu) by Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Why then Kabeer? Any special reason?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
                                  brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
                                                  Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12|| 
Guru Nanaak, Ang 908. ​


----------



## pk70 (Apr 2, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Pk70 Jee!
> 
> Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
> ...


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 2, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Your questions are interesting. Please raise those as independent threads.
I hope.  Many intellectuals and learned Sikh people are visiting this site. Maybe someone takes this initiative to satisfy the hungry minds.

Jasleen Kaur Jee!
You have quoted four lines from Guru Gobind Singh Jee. 

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
Perhaps it has become easier to understand now if Gurdev has different views on Bisan than quoted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Perhaps it is the translation that misleads.

Pk70 Jee!
Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind. 
Your post is a strange example.

Quote "On that base, you can judge me. Your judgement is truly immaterial to me though!"
Does Gurbaanee suggests others to judge?
And concluded "I also request you that while debating, one must not get personal at all, only those do who are prone to lose cool. sorry to say that Gurbani preaches against that."
Please do not blame others while suggesting them to judge.

Quote "By the way, I havent checked your profile to go personal. I dont need it."
Was the need to write this?

Quote "Sir, that is your opinion, stick to it and let me be in duality and have my own opinion just contrary to yours."
I agree.

Quote "Yes sir, I have to agree with you; however, you missed my point( or just dont want to acknowledge it), I just proved that same word" Ram" is used for HIM as well as for HIs creation" Ram Chandra."
Thanks. I hope.  The awareness remains of this agreeing.

Quote "You also forgot that namjap ji quoted Kabir ji in which Kabir ji used Bisan just contray to your initial quote. If you disagree with it, be feel free."
Kabeer Jee is talking about 'baisno' in the referred Vaak not 'Bisan'.

Quote "Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu. 
Sardar Bahadar Balbir Singh ji, this quote is not from Guru Angad Dev, it is from Guru Nanak, Malaar Ki Vaar Mehla 1 (1279)"
I know I cannot remember Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Page wise. Please join me, finding it again.

Quote "Please let all know what has convinced you that they are Hindu.
Sir,
No body did. Actually I am not affiliated to any one or group but my Glorious Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is very abvious that all these names we discussed are adored by Hindus as their Dev or Avtar."
This existence adores each word the reverend Gurus speak to me as it is. I do not know why one should add his adjectives like 'Hindu' to those.

Quote "Guru ji used them as references to clear the mist society had in those days."
Why some writers are throwing this mist on Sikh seekers now again?

Quote "Sir, I just share here on SPN sangat , it can disagree or agree with me because I dont consider myself a scholar or preacher. Kindly do not accuse me of that which I dont do."
Why should a responsible writer stress on word like "Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator." Guru Saahibaan and Bhagat Jees have never said this though.

Quote "I have found on this site, sangat is very intelligent.It is my feeling, people here share and debate, misleading word is used out of context here."
True Satsangs are not political arenas. One does not need buttering the readers.

ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ॥(1279)
ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji

Quote "In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically."
*Thanks for no more entitling Him a Hindu. God's loving activity 'Ram Chandar' is also active in Sikhs. This is governing that is why it is The King.*

Quote "In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature."
*The Creator is active permeating in all. The blessed ones recognize His activity Raam.*

Quote "Sardar Bahadar Balbir Singh ji, another request, I do not have enough time to involve in futile issues as you have raised."
Please do not feel disgusted. Try further finding the answer. Remain is Satsang.


Balbir Singh


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 2, 2008)

Balbir ji

I shall not abandon you but continue with questions on this thread. Please look again at my questions. I should appreciate that. 

Now your comment to NanJap ji

Quote "You also forgot that namjap ji quoted Kabir ji in which Kabir ji used Bisan just contray to your initial quote. If you disagree with it, be feel free."
* Kabeer Jee is talking about 'baisno' in the referred Vaak not 'Bisan'.

*Why do you think that baisno and Bisan are different. They are two different transliteration spellings of the same thing. We can talk about why this is so.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Jasleen Kaur Jee!
> You have quoted four lines from Guru Gobind Singh Jee.
> 
> ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
> Perhaps it has become easier to understand now if Gurdev has different views on Bisan than quoted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Perhaps it is the translation that misleads.



please feel free to provide your own translation, with source.  i will compare it to translations by well known scholars.  i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this.




Balbir Singh said:


> Pk70 Jee!
> Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind.
> Your post is a strange example.



MODS, this would be a named insult to PK70.


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 2, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Balbir Singh* 

 
_Pk70 Jee!_
_Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind. _
_Your post is a strange example._

Jasleen Ji,
PK70 will not be disturbed by such statements. He is mature-minded and has gone thru enough ups and downs in life. His life is surrounded by God's Grace. He'll be back in one week.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

namjap said:


> Originally Posted by *Balbir Singh*
> 
> 
> _Pk70 Jee!_
> ...




i was under the impression that named insults were not allowed here.  now i see there is a double standard...  it should not matter if PK70 is more mature than the rest of us, what should matter is that members should not insult one another.

is this because balbir is your friend?  you have moderated my comments for much less.

i think the mods need to get together and discuss the "rules" (if there are any).  this biased moderation style is really becoming a problem.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 2, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Baisno is the devotee of Bisan. Baisno is not Bisan.
Also, Guru Arjan Dev Jee is singing.
ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ 
बैसनो सो जिसु ऊपरि सुप्रसंन ॥ 
Baisno so jis ūpar suparsan. 
The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased. 


ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ 
बिसन की माइआ ते होइ भिंन ॥ 
Bisan kī mā*i*ā ṯė ho*ė bẖinn. 
He dwells apart from Maya. 


Quote from Jasleen Kaur Jee "please feel free to provide your own translation, with source. i will compare it to translations by well known scholars. i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this."
I may not be the right help for those who are assisting Gyaanee Baabaas in translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Quote from Jasleen Kaur Jee "please feel free to provide your own translation, with source. i will compare it to translations by well known scholars. i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this."
> I may not be the right help for those who are assisting Gyaanee Baabaas in translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh





please don't dance around the issue.  if you are going to tell people that translations are incorrect, please be ready to provide the correct translations.

no one is "helping" any "gyanee baabaas" here.  we're only trying to learn and understand


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 2, 2008)

*"you have moderated my comments for much less."*
Jasleen Ji,
I don't understand which post you're referring to - which thread is this ?
Btw, if Balbir Singh Ji wants to be my friend, who am I to reject him ?

Na Ko Bairi, Nahe Biganaa........

In fact, I have high regards for Pyramid Ji, PK70 Ji, Kaur-1 Ji and everybody else. If I disagree with somebody it doesn't mean he becomes a foe. 

_Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind. 
Your post is a strange example.
_
If this comment of Balbir Singh directed towards PK70 is insulting, then it is PK70 call to raise an objection and alert the MODS. 

Jasleen Ji,

It is easier to be a MOD on other Sikh Forums because freedom of speech has its wings clipped. SPN is different. You may have noticed that.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

namjap said:


> *"you have moderated my comments for much less."*
> Jasleen Ji,
> I don't understand which post you're referring to - which thread is this ?



i asked a member not to insult the entire forum.  rather than moderating that member, you moderated my request!  i'm sure you remember now.



namjap said:


> If this comment of Balbir Singh directed towards PK70 is insulting, then it is PK70 call to raise an objection and alert the MODS.



i see.  so basically the moderators at SPN do nothing unless asked by the person the insult was directed at.

interesting, considering how many times myself and others are moderated without anyone complaining...  of course, certain members can make all the insults they like and they never get moderated...  funny how those people both flatter you so much in their posts...   

it seems arbitrary.  each mod has their own standards.  you guys need to get it together, because frankly, the quality of discussion on SPN is going downhill fast.





namjap said:


> It is easier to be a MOD on other Sikh Forums because freedom of speech has its wings clipped. SPN is different. You may have noticed that.



so why have mods at all?  either apply your rules (no named insults, debate the issue not the person) across ALL members or do not apply them to any.  the way it's going now is unfair and really disappointing.


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 2, 2008)

*i asked a member not to insult the entire forum. rather than moderating that member, you moderated my request! i'm sure you remember now.*

You have to be more specific than this Jasleen Ji.
I cannot remember like this. PM me if you need to give specifics you feel are personal. I will attend to your queries. 

* see. so basically the moderators at SPN do nothing unless asked by the person the insult was directed at.*

Different individuals react to the same statement differently. If PK70 feels insulted, we'll know from his reaction. 

* certain members can make all the insults they like and they never get moderated... funny how those people both flatter you so much in their posts...* 

When I'm Moderating, I don't spare anyone, they can flatter me all they want. Duty is duty. Most of the time, members fail to see that Mods want to post/reply, etc as members on topics they find interesting. Well I guess, that's something which is too much to ask for. 

*it seems arbitrary. each mod has their own standards. you guys need to get it together, because frankly, the quality of discussion on SPN is going downhill fast.

*Any feedback from members is very much appreciated. The wise, see me as wise, and the ............ (sorry I forgot the phrase).


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Aad0002 Jee asked three questions. The first one has four sub-questions. These are "So would you be specific? Are you using the exact reference Kishan=Krishna and Bisan = Vishnu? Or are you thinking of them differently? If differently, what meaning are you using?"
Every time I use the word 'Aad0002', I would intend to express the same person. I would specify it further if I explain one to recognize 'Aad0002' with her activity or an attribute.
The reverend Gurus have used many words like Kisan, Bisan, Brahma, Mahays, Raam in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. They are singing every time about the same Godly Attribute.
These are the lost Baabaas and preachers who add adjectives to God's Activities that the true Gurus never mentioned.
It is interesting that these Baabaas and preachers are enjoying the cake donated and baked by the simple heart Sikhs. They receive Saropaas and titles for changing Guru's Baanee and misleading people.

According to Gurbaanee, Kisan is Kisan and Bisan is Bisan. Have any of your Baabaas, translators or preachers ever tried to understand and explain it to Seekers?

Quote "What are you saying by this sentence Many people seek God's Darshan as Kishan or Bishan."
God's Nirgun Saroop is unknown to a Jeev. The Jeev does not know any way to transcend his mind to realize Him. God's Sarguna Saroop is present all around. The spiritual journey begins with Lord's Sarguna Saroop. Darshan of Kisan, Bisan is recognizing God's Sarguna Saroop on His Way.
The reverend Gurus have also reported their existence mentioning them. Please do not trust a Baabaa who tries to convince Sikhs that The Gurus are singing about Kisan, Bisan without having their Darshan.

Quote "Why did you compare a bani of Sri Gobind Singh with the bani of Kabeer only? There are numerous references to Bisan (Vishnu) by Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Why then Kabeer? Any special reason?"
Those who come to know Bisan they have nothing to compare any more with Bisan.
Only ignorant do need to compare.

**************

Jasleen Kaur Jee!

In my understanding, Gurdev is singing the Vaak explaining.
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
I do not persuade Ganesha first. I never meditate Kishan, Bishan. Ears listen but have no cognition. My consciousness is devoted at their feet.


Balbir Singh


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Aad0002 Jee asked three questions. The first one has four sub-questions. These are "So would you be specific? Are you using the exact reference Kishan=Krishna and Bisan = Vishnu? Or are you thinking of them differently? If differently, what meaning are you using?"
> ...



Balbir ji

Your perspective is much clearer than before. I will think on this and get back to you.

*Note: I am recusing myself as moderator so that I can continue to be a discussant in this thread. *


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2008)

Balbir ji,

Now have read what you wrote in your response very carefully.



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Aad0002 Jee asked three questions. The first one has four sub-questions. These are "So would you be specific? Are you using the exact reference Kishan=Krishna and Bisan = Vishnu? Or are you thinking of them differently? If differently, what meaning are you using?"
> ...



Thank you.


----------



## pk70 (Apr 14, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> your quote
> Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind.
> Your post is a strange example.
> *Balbir Ji, lover of Gurushabad doesn’t need to stoop very low to judge others in a harsh way as you have done in your above statement. Talking about experience of spirituality as you do, becomes a joke then. Here is Gurdev waak to keep in mind*
> ...


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 14, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Some people are strange. They love to contradict.
May I ask why you contradict the true Gurus? For example, You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
The reverend Gurus are singing often that the Creator creates Bisan though.

Quote "( kamlapat means bisn, Vishnu)
BALBIR SINGH JI, HOW COME BHAGAT KABIR JI IS TALKING HERE ABOUT SAME BISN GURU GOBIND SINGH JI DID IN YOUR INITIAL QUOTE?"
True Bhagats receive this wisdom alone. Why Kabeer Jee has used the word Kamlapati here and not Bisan?
Ignorant love to replace words and hope to understand Gurbaanee.

Quote "Nanak panth word was never used by any Guru in Guru Granth Sahib Ji; however, every one knows what Nanak panth is."
Guru Naanak Jee walked and talked of only one Panth. That is Hari Panth.
Strange, lost Baabaas agree that Naanak Panth word was never used by any Guru in Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Still, they try to convince others that everyone knows what Naanak Panth is.

Quote "So what are you debating on Hindu devta or non Hindu devta ?"
Please come out of this state of mental numbness. God's attributes are not Hindu or Non-Hindu.

Quote "It doesn’t matter if Guru ji didn’t say that these were Hindus."
Preachers always try to be cleverer than Truth.

Quote "Playing with a word doesn’t help in any way. Who were using these words before Guru ji came on the stage of the world? ANSWER IS “HINDUS”." 
Why Sick Baabaas are using these words and adjectives for God now?

Quote "You named Guru Angad Dev instead of Guru Nanak in that reference, so I just tried to tell you to stop using incorrect name. Was it hard to understand?"
Please check it again. The referred Vaak is from Second Mehl:

vYdw vYdu suvYdu qU pihlW rogu pCwxu ] (15, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv) 
AYsw dwrU loiV lhu ijqu vM\Y rogw Gwix ] (15, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv) 
ijqu dwrU rog auiTAih qin suKu vsY Awie ] (16, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv)
rogu gvwieih Awpxw q nwnk vYdu sdwie ]2] (16, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv)
pauVI ]
bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] (17, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv)
bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] (17, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv) SGGS 1279

Quote "You are habitual of asking” where is it in Guru Granth Sahib?” “ Does Guru say that?” Surprisingly there is a lot of things which are not found in Guru Granth Sahib ji but they are inseparable part of Sikhism like no reference is found in Guru Granth Sahib ji about Guru Har Rai, Guru Har Krishan ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji but they are inseparable part of Sikhism."
The topic is about God's Attributes, not any Guru in human body of history.
All true Gurus love to sing God's Attributes, not about the history of their body.

Quote "This statement of yours is very funny. Ram Chandrar is not active in Sikhs as you claim."
Please listen. Gurdev is singing.
sBY Gt rwmu bolY rwmw bolY ]
rwm ibnw ko bolY ry ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 988-16

rwmcMd kI lsitkw ijin mwirAw rogu ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 817-4

sRI rwmcMd ijsu rUpu n ryiKAw ] SGGS 1082-9

Now, please provide one reference where Gurdev has said that Raam, Raam Chand or Raam Chandra is not active in Sikhs. I will be thankful.


Balbir Singh


----------



## pk70 (Apr 15, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Pk70 Jee!
> 
> Some people are strange. They love to contradict.
> ...


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Balbir Singh "Some people are strange. They love to contradict.
May I ask why you contradict the true Gurus? For example, You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
The reverend Gurus are singing often that the Creator creates Bisan though."
Pk70 Jee's answer "I gave you a quote from Bhagat Kabir ji, you still chose to be in denial, it is your problem."

Is this your answer? 
My efforts are not anyway to change or influence the animal's tale. My posts are for true seekers. False preachers and misinterpreters of Guru's words are dodging them since long.

The true Gurus have mentioned often that the creator created Bisan. Pk70 Jee is but claiming that Bisan is the creator himself.

**************

Quote "Quote is from Pauri(stanza), Guru Angad Dev never wrote a pouri(stanza) of any Vaar."
Please provide an authentic proof for this. I will be grateful. Knowing why they do not mention First Mehl before this Pauree may be interesting.

**************

Quote from Pk70 Jee "Ram Chandrar is not active in Sikhs as you claim."
I requested this. Please provide one reference where Gurdev has said that Raam, Raam Chand or Raam Chandra is not active in Sikhs. I will be thankful.

Pk70 Jee responded "Here is an example, Gurdev ji is singing about cries of your king Ram Chandra. Your Ram Chandra doesn’t, cannot permeate in Sikhs, if an ignorant believes,sorry to say that I see no difference between Sick Babaas and that ignorant." giving this reference.
rovY rwmu inkwlw BieAw ] sIqw lKmxu ivCuiV gieAw ] 
rovY dhisru lµk gvwie ] ijin sIqw AwdI faurU vwie ] SGGS 954-1

*Does the above reference from Guru Naanak Jee say that Ram Chandar is not active in Sikhs?*
I feel your statement "Ram Chandrar is not active in Sikhs as you claim" shows how much one can go astray opposing the true Guru's Vaaks.

Curious readers and true seekers may love to know what the reverend Gurus have said about Raajaa (The King) Raam. These are few references.

rwjw rwm Anhd ikMgurI bwjY ]
jw kI idsit nwd ilv lwgY ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 92-15

The King Raam, Anhad Kinguree sounds.
May I ask if Gurdev is mentioning here true Sikhs or pseudo Sikhs? In whom Anhad Kinguree sounds?

+++++

aubrq rwjw rwm kI srxI ]
srb lok mwieAw ky mMfl igir igir prqy DrxI ]1] rhwau ] (12, gauVI mwlw, gurU Arjn dyv) SGGS 215-12

Gurdev is surely not talking about those who are rejecting Raajaa Raam.

+++++

Ab mo kau Bey rwjw rwm shweI ]
jnm mrn kit prm giq pweI ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 331-4

Whom Raajaa Raam has helped, their birth and death are gone and have received Param Gati.
What will happen with those who claim that Raajaa Raam is not active in them?

+++++

kih kbIr rwjw rwm n Cofau sgl aUc qy aUcw ] SGGS 338-14
Kbeer says 'I do not leave Raaja Raam, Sagal Ooch te Oochaa.
What will happen with one who is falling in deep darkness leaving Raajaa Raam?

+++++

qum srnwgiq rwjw rwm cMd kih rivdws cmwrw ] SGGS 659-7.
You are sanctuary activator Raajaa Raam, Chamaar Ravidaas is saying.

What remains to say about the lowest of the low who claims that not only in him but in all Sikhs, Raajaa Raam is not active?

Many more wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev explain the same.

Rest another time.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 15, 2008)

Balbir Singh Ji and PK70 Ji,

You are treading on borderline of Forum Rules. Please refrain from insulting each other in cleverly disguised phrases.

You will be advised to re-phrase your comments from now on. 

*SPN Forum Rules *
*1. Respect:* Treat all members with the kind of respect that you expect from them in return for yourself.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

This is the continuation of the last post.

Pk70 Jee wrote "Here is an example, Gurdev ji is singing about cries of your king Ram Chandra." He referred the Guru's Vaak.
rovY rwmu inkwlw BieAw ] 
rovY rwmu inkwlw BeAw ]
rovai raamu nikaalaa bha-i-aa. SGGS 953-19
Raam weeps. Deportation has taken place.

The word Raamu with Aunkarh occurs more than two hundred and fifty times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Every time the reverend Gurus explain Raamu enthusiastically praising Him as Lord's Activity. The same truth is in the above Vaak from Gurdev.

Observing it how wrong translations can mislead the simple heart people is a wonder of God's Will.

Pk70 Jee's conclusion of the above is "Your Ram Chandra doesn’t, cannot permeate in Sikhs, if an ignorant believes,sorry to say that I see no difference between Sick Babaas and that ignorant."
Surprise, when Raam weeps He is yours. Otherwise, He belongs to the Gurus. May I ask when Sikhs will recognize Raam in them?
It does not look like that your Baabaas and preachers ever wish to loose their business. They may never let anyone recognize Raam who also weeps rarely in someone when He feels separated from God.

+++++

Quote "First time I am hearing A Sikh turns to be worshipper of Ram Chandra!"
The reverend Gurus have used the true expressions Raam, Raajaa Raam and Raam Chand. 
They have never used the expression Raam Chandra or Raam Chandar.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing about Raam with Aunkarh.

nw Eih mrih n Twgy jwih ]
nw Aoih mrih n Twgy jwih ]
naa ohi mareh na thaagay jaahi.

ijn kY rwmu vsY mn mwih ]
ijn kY rwmu vsY mn mwih ]
jin kai raam vasai man maahi. SGGS 8-4

Also, please read what Pk70 Jee is writing about Raamu with Aunkarh.

+++++

Quote "Ram Raheem Anek Kahen mat ek na mannyo” Have you forgot Gurudev waak?"
No. Nor I have become seventy by drinking.

The original Vaak from Guru Gobind Singh Jee is this.
ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
राम रहीम पुरान कुरान अनेक कहैं मत एक न मानयो ॥
Raam Raheem puraan Kuraan anayk kahaiN mat ham ayk na maanyo.
On Raam, Raheem, Puraan and Koraan, many talk estimates. I do not consent one.

Gurdev, in my view, is explaining to experience Truth. He is convinced not to follow the ideas of others.


Balbir Singh


----------



## pk70 (Apr 16, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> This is the continuation of the last post.
> ...




*BEING IN DENIAL AND DETERMINED TO DO STONE WALLING AROUND FAILED ARGUMENT LEADS TO STAGNANCY IN IDEOLOGY . Congratulation, enjoy it. More precious things need my attention*


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Quote "BEING IN DENIAL AND DETERMINED TO DO STONE WALLING AROUND FAILED ARGUMENT LEADS TO STAGNANCY IN IDEOLOGY ."
Please do not run away. These are true Guru's Vaaks not stones.
Stay tuned. True Sikhs may want to know. Bisan is the same.

Quote "Congratulation, enjoy it. More precious things need my attention."
Thanks Balbir Singh is in joy. What is more precious than being with the Guru?

**************

These are quotes from your first post # seven on this topic.

Quote "Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
Not even once Guru Saahiban have said that Bisan is the Creator. In which Sangat people learnt such explanations? Please explain it.

Quote ".( Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh) here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods."
Better doubt your mind that is not able to understand Dasmesh Guru.
Only translated Sikhs are depending on translations to understand Dasam Granth and go astray.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee also talked about the same Attribute of God referring Bisan.

**************

Bisan is the same Godly Attribute of Sarguna Lord for all Jeevs.



Balbir Singh


----------



## pk70 (Apr 16, 2008)

quote=Balbir Singh;77559]Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Quote "BEING IN DENIAL AND DETERMINED TO DO STONE WALLING AROUND FAILED ARGUMENT LEADS TO STAGNANCY IN IDEOLOGY ."
Please do not run away. These are true Guru's Vaaks not stones.\
*Lies makes a point laughable, as you know I never said Guru Vaaks "stone", it was your denial to accept the fact that GOD was called with various names, a quote from Gurbani was given, you didnt bring it here as per your strategy.*

Stay tuned. True Sikhs may want to know. Bisan is the same.
*Stay tune to hear cheap jokes? NO, not at all, HE is **NAM**, SHABAD, Onkar, Allah, RAM, Murar, Beethal. Other names are given by people. It doesn’t matter at all. Now talking about sargun roop, all are Him, why to stick to one word bisn ? *

Quote "Congratulation, enjoy it. More precious things need my attention."
Thanks Balbir Singh is in joy. What is more precious than being with the Guru?
*By merely claiming being with Guru, one  is not with Guru. That state(being with the Guru) of mind is way far away for a person who still thinks Ram the king-when Guru ji describes him  crying over brother and wife- is an attribute to GOD. Talking about Babaas and preachers, This distortion of Gurbani is worse than Babaas? It is always easy to blame others. Running away? I am not running away, I am avoiding a person who doesn’t know what  “Nanak Dukhya sabh sansaar” Shabad say?.  Guru shabad is distorted right here and blames are thrown on those so called Babaas. Some claim they are with Guru but they display jealousy, anger, criticism. Would you angry with them? well, I am not. I am happy if they are with Guru but.......*

**************

These are quotes from your first post # seven on this topic.

Quote "Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
*Yes sir, Kabir ji talks in that shabad about Nirgun Bisn,*
           ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥ * again in another quote I gave, Kabir ji talks about sargun roop bisn who knows not infinity of The Creator.*
*This game is over Janaab.*

Not even once Guru Saahiban have said that Bisan is the Creator. In which Sangat people learnt such explanations? Please explain it.
* Kabir's bani is Gurbani, in his quote, there in your intial post(given above), he asks to meditate on Nirgun Bisn; however, in another  quote I gave, Kabir ji declares vishnu(sargun) couldnt know The Creator. It is easy to drop logic and come up with another thing, endlessly one can keep saying, this is that that is this. Your thread seems to be hair splitting game, nothing more than that. That was another reason I called it time wastage because denial and stone walling stop every thing, resulting in time wasting*

Quote ".( Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh) here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods."
Better doubt your mind that is not able to understand Dasmesh Guru.
Only translated Sikhs are depending on translations to understand Dasam Granth and go astray.
*How will you explain any one what is meant by" translated Sikhs”? Please must explain it?
Now this is another topic, go to hard talk, we will debate there.
*
Guru Gobind Singh Jee also talked about the same Attribute of God referring Bisan.
*Guru Gobind Singh is declaring that bisan is not worthy of attention. Don’t please add new meanings to it. Argument is heavily rusted
*
**************

Bisan is the same Godly Attribute of Sarguna Lord for all Jeevs.

*Well, it was you who said different way, saying Kabir and Guru Gobind Singh ji's Bisan are separate . You never mentioned sargun  or nirgun word in there.
If it was said that these are sargun attributes, then ok, but you went further by saying king Ram permeates in Sikhs, quite opposite to sargun sroop. Isnt it hilarious to know that sargun roop of Creator Ram still permeates in Sikhs? I doubt even so called babaas can make fun of Creator like this. Good runs ! Almost  all babaas and*
* Preachers are beaten. WAO!!!![/FONT]*


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 16, 2008)

Kirtan and Katha by Bhai Balwinder Singh Rangila

YouTube - Ram Ram Karta Sabh Jag Phira Ram Na Payea Jaye(Part1)
YouTube - Ram Ram Karta Sabh Jag Phira Ram Na Payea Jaye(Part2)
YouTube - Ram Ram Karta Sabh Jag Phira Ram Na Payea Jaye(Part3)
YouTube - Ram Ram Karta Sabh Jag Phira Ram Na Payea Jaye(Part4)
YouTube - Ram Ram Karta Sabh Jag Phira Ram Na Payea Jaye(Part5)
YouTube - Ram Ram Karta Sabh Jag Phira Ram Na Payea Jaye(Part6)


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Quote " . . . a quote from Gurbani was given, you didnt bring it here as per your strategy."
Why do you hesitate to refer it again? Please do it.

Quote "HE is NAM, SHABAD, Onkar, Allah, RAM, Murar, Beethal. Other names are given by people. It doesn’t matter at all. Now talking about sargun roop, all are Him, why to stick to one word bisn ?"
Who gave Him the name pk70?

Quote "By merely claiming being with Guru, one is not with Guru. That state(being with the Guru) of mind is way far away for a person who still thinks Ram the king"
Please do not envy others. I hope people are not envying the enlightened Gurus who realized the King Raam.

Quote " . . . when Guru ji describes him crying over brother and wife- is an attribute to GOD."
Gurdev has not used the words brother and wife. What has influenced you to come to this conclusion?
*Raam is a part of Sansaar. All Sansaar is dukhiaa. Raam cries. This is another Attribute of Raam, Sargun God.*

Quote "Yes sir, Kabir ji talks in that shabad about Nirgun Bisn,"
*Gurdev says that no one can talk about His Nirgun Saroop.* Since when Bisan is Nirgun. Is this what you have understood from translations?

Quote "again in another quote I gave, Kabir ji talks about sargun roop bisn who knows not infinity of The Creator."
*Kabeer Jee also feels unable to talk about Nirgun Lord. He talks about only Sargun Attribute of God.*

Quote "Kabir's bani is Gurbani, in his quote, there in your intial post(given above), he asks to meditate on Nirgun Bisn."
*Wrong. Samhaari does not mean meditating. Also, Bisan is never Nirgun Bisan because the creator created Him.*

Quote "Your thread seems to be hair splitting game, nothing more than that. That was another reason I called it time wastage because denial and stone walling stop every thing, resulting in time wasting."
I am thankful. God has engaged me in His Attributes.

Quote "How will you explain any one what is meant by" translated Sikhs”? Please must explain it?"
Those, who understand their Guru through translations from others, refer translations and think on those translations. They are translated Sikhs.
*True Guru's Wisdom is to experience received through the true Naam Sabad.*


Quote "Guru Gobind Singh is declaring that bisan is not worthy of attention. Don’t please add new meanings to it. Argument is heavily rusted."
Wrong. *Gurdev would never say 'Liv Laagee moree Pag In SaoN' in the next line if He would reject Bisan.*
Only a translated Sikh may say so.

Quote "Well, it was you who said different way, saying Kabir and Guru Gobind Singh ji's Bisan are separate . You never mentioned sargun or nirgun word in there."
At least rise to earth, please.
I asked. Is Bisan of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Kabeer Jee different?
I did not ask. Are Bisans of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Kabeer Jee different?

Quote " . . . but you went further by saying king Ram permeates in Sikhs, quite opposite to sargun sroop."
*This is Truth also right now. Raam is the Sargun activity of Lord permeating in all, also Sikhs.*

Quote "Isnt it hilarious to know that sargun roop of Creator Ram still permeates in Sikhs? I doubt even so called babaas can make fun of Creator like this."
*This is Truth. God is not only Nirgun. Nobody recognizes HIM half. The blessed ones recognize HIM, complete, in HIS NIRGUN PLUS SARGUN form simultaneously.*

Quote "Good runs ! Almost all babaas and Preachers are beaten. WAO!!!!"
*All is God's Domain.*


Balbir Singh


----------



## pk70 (Apr 17, 2008)

Say Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

Quote " . . . a quote from Gurbani was given, you didnt bring it here as per your strategy."
Why do you hesitate to refer it again? Please do it.
  HERE IS IT
*ਚਾਰਿ **ਬੇਦ **ਅਰੁ **ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ **ਪੁਰਾਨਾਂ **॥**ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ **ਕਵਲਾ **ਨਹੀ **ਜਾਨਾਂ **॥**੩**॥*
*The four Vedas, the Simritees and the Puraanas, Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of them know the Lord. ||3||*

*I proved it through Kabir ji’s Vaak, who is in denial? Balbir Singh ji
*
Quote "By merely claiming being with Guru, one is not with Guru. That state(being with the Guru) of mind is way far away for a person who still thinks Ram the king"


 Please do not envy others. I hope people are not envying the enlightened Gurus who realized the King Raam.


*Here is what Guru ji realized*
* so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI ]3] jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ]  {pMnw 1136}*
*Guru ji realized deathless, birth less Ram but not your king Ram of Ayudhya, a Sargun sroop. Sargun sroop is just HIS impression only.*
* Why to envy any one who claims to be with Guru? Nirankari, Ram Raheem and many Babaas or Gurus are claiming to be with Akaal purakh, why would even I care about them? 

*Quote " . . . when Guru ji describes him crying over brother and wife- is an attribute to GOD."
Gurdev has not used the words brother and wife. What has influenced you to come to this conclusion?
*Alright, Guru ji didn’t use word like brother, wife,  there is reference in Shabad  to Sita, who was Sita ? wife of King of Ayudhya Ram. Laxman? Brother of Ram of Ayudhya . Word gaming is at its peak. When will you  get over with these unnecessary  word game?*
*
Raam is a part of Sansaar. All Sansaar is dukhiaa. Raam cries. This is another Attribute of Raam, Sargun God.*

*RAAM never cries, only Ram of Ayudhya, HIS sargun sroop, cried for losing wife and brother. *
* GUR JI ALSO SAYS ABOUT THIS SARGUN SROOP OF GOD, enjoy it, it further clears concept of His Nirgun and sargun Sroops*
jwrau AYsI pRIiq kutMb snbMDI mwieAw moh pswrI ] ijsu AMqir pRIiq rwm rsu nwhI duibDw krm ibkwrI ]3] AMqir rqn pdwrQ ihq kO durY n lwl ipAwrI ] nwnk gurmuiK nwmu Amolku juig juig AMqir DwrI ]4]3] {pMnw 1197-1198)
*N No translation here, direct  Revealed Vaak  of Guru ji, it says   Sargun Sroop of God is an an obstacle too to realize HIM.*

  Quote "Yes sir, Kabir ji talks in that shabad about Nirgun Bisn,"
*Gurdev says that no one can talk about His Nirgun Saroop.*


*Kabir ji was saying to meditate on His Nirgun Sroop Bisn Reread it.
*


   Since when Bisan is Nirgun.
  Is this what you have understood from translations?
*According to Gurbani( a quote already given above from Bhagat Kabir ji), he can be called on as Bisn, translation has nothing to do with it. Just for information, my mother tongue is Punjabi, I don’t need translations.*


Quote "again in another quote I gave, Kabir ji talks about sargun roop bisn who knows not infinity of The Creator."
*Kabeer Jee also feels unable to talk about Nirgun Lord. He talks about only Sargun Attribute of God.*


*This is the quote you gave from Bhagat Kabir ji, here he is not saying what you are saying. day dreaming cannot change the facts.*

Quote "Kabir's bani is Gurbani, in his quote, there in your intial post(given above), he asks to meditate on Nirgun Bisn."
*Wrong. Samhaari does not mean meditating.*


*Why do you keep the meaning you talk about to yourself? share it with all, we will see if it is accurately interpreted.
*


* Also, Bisan is never Nirgun Bisan because the creator created Him.*

*Here your confusion is very strong, Bhagat Kabir ji uses a word known in our debate Bisn, for the Creator. Look for your own quote.*

Quote "Your thread seems to be hair splitting game, nothing more than that. That was another reason I called it time wastage because denial and stone walling stop every thing, resulting in time wasting."
I am thankful. God has engaged me in His Attributes.
*CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Quote "How will you explain any one what is meant by" translated Sikhs”? Please must explain it?"
Those, who understand their Guru through translations from others, refer translations and think on those translations. They are translated Sikhs.

*Since they are translated Sikhs as per your decree, how  they can be Sikhs even? Babaas and preachers you frequently quote are not well versed in English and stick with original, they also fall in your category, isn’t your way to avoid logic and start judging of others? *
*
True Guru's Wisdom is to experience received through the true Naam Sabad.*

Your statement needs further explanation but read what Satguru ji says in this context
*“ The way of yogis is the way of philosophy and that of Brahmins is to read the Vedas.*
*The way of Kashatrya is the way of bravery and that of Sudras is the service of others.*
*But one who knows the secret, there is one and the same way for all (regardless of being any one)*
*Such a one is spotless and Godlike, and Nanak is his servant.”*
*( Slok Mehl 2, Asa Dee Vaar)*



Quote "Guru Gobind Singh is declaring that bisan is not worthy of attention. Don’t please add new meanings to it. Argument is heavily rusted."
Wrong. *Gurdev would never say 'Liv Laagee moree Pag In SaoN' in the next line if He would reject Bisan.*

*H*ere you act like translated Sikhs because, I referred to Guru vaak” bisn kabhi n dhiaaon.”” liv laagee moree Pag In Saon” is for the Creator not Bisn, His creation.
"IN" stands for The Creator.


Quote "Well, it was you who said different way, saying Kabir and Guru Gobind Singh ji's Bisan are separate . You never mentioned sargun or nirgun word in there."
At least rise to earth, please.


*I am here , please come out of dreams because your sentence is  not even close to my question*

I asked. Is Bisan of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Kabeer Jee different?
I did not ask. Are Bisans of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Kabeer Jee different?

*Game of word doesn’t take any one any where. Look at meaning” is Bisn of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Kabeer Jee different”?, in this sentence very clearly it is asked if Bisn used in Kabir ji’s quote  and Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s quote are the same or different one? In the second sentence, again it is asked if both of the authors are using “Bisn” for the same entity or different one. The essence is the same, an imprudent game can go on.
*
Quote " . . . but you went further by saying king Ram permeates in Sikhs, quite opposite to sargun sroop."
*This is Truth also right now. Raam is the Sargun activity of Lord permeating in all, also Sikhs.*
Only as per your special truth. King Ram was sargun sroop which was prone to die, Nirgun sroop permeated in King Ram when he was alive, now only Nirgun Ram is permeating every where. If a worshipper of Ram of Ayudhya, says King Raam of Ayudhya does permeate today, who cares man?

Quote "Isnt it hilarious to know that sargun roop of Creator Ram still permeates in Sikhs? I doubt even so called babaas can make fun of Creator like this."
*This is Truth. God is not only Nirgun. Nobody recognizes HIM half. The blessed ones recognize HIM, complete, in HIS NIRGUN PLUS SARGUN form simultaneously. *
To recognize God and His both sroop(Nirgun and Sargun) simultaneously  is a different thing than saying  the dead is permeating in living beings.

Quote "Good runs ! Almost all babaas and Preachers are beaten. WAO!!!!"
*All is God's Domain.*
*HIS HUKAM PERVAILS*


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 17, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

True translations do not need additional words. Adding, reducing or replacing anything to the original words show incompetency of the translator.
The translation provided for kmlwpiq kvlw nhI jwnW ] is 'Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of them know the Lord'. This is one typical example of a translation.

The word Vishnu cannot replace the word Kamlaapati. 
Strange, Kawlaa is Lakhmee but her name changes into Kamlaa  and Vishnu changes His name into Kamlaapati. When?

Quote "I proved it through Kabir ji’s Vaak, who is in denial? Balbir Singh ji."
Your understanding is of the borrowed translations. How can one talk to you on Guru's Vaaks?

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaak from Guru Arjan Dev Jee.
so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI ] jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] SGGS 1136-5.
This is your explanation of the above Vaak. "Guru ji realized deathless, birth less Ram but not your king Ram of Ayudhya, a Sargun sroop. Sargun sroop is just HIS impression only."
Translated Sikh Jee, please explain. Does Gurdev uses the word Raam in this Vaak? 
Please do not worry if Raam is mine and of the Gurus.

Quote "No translation here, direct Revealed Vaak of Guru ji, it says Sargun Sroop of God is an an obstacle too to realize HIM."
Please let all know how did you come to this understanding? Were the Gurus in Sargun Saroop of God also an obstacle to realize HIM?

Quote "Kabir ji was saying to meditate on His Nirgun Sroop Bisn Reread it."
Please refer the Guru's Vaak where He has said so. I will be thankful.

Quote "Bhagat Kabir ji uses a word known in our debate Bisn, for the Creator."
Where? Please provide the reference clearly.

Quote "I referred to Guru vaak” bisn kabhi n dhiaaon.”” liv laagee moree Pag In Saon” is for the Creator not Bisn, His creation."IN" stands for The Creator."
Thanks. I do not need any proof of your understanding.

Quote "Only as per your special truth. King Ram was sargun sroop which was prone to die, Nirgun sroop permeated in King Ram when he was alive, now only Nirgun Ram is permeating every where. If a worshipper of Ram of Ayudhya, says King Raam of Ayudhya does permeate today, who cares man?"
I do not know where Gurdev has used this word Ayudhya. How did it enter your mind even though?
Also, King Raam was not only in the past as Sargun Saroop. He is right now also active in all. One can realize Him first in present through the Sabad Guru.

Please listen. Guru Arjan Dev Jee is singing about the King Raam.
hoeI rwjy rwm kI rKvwlI ]
sUK shj Awnd gux gwvhu mnu qnu dyh suKwlI ] rhwau ] SGGS 620-3

**************

Pk70 Jee,
Please provide the authentic proof that confirms "Guru Angad Dev Jee never wrote any Pauree".
I hope you are working on it.

**************

Generations of Baabaas may read and steal explanations from Scriptures and others. Their business may go on flourishing, keeping them engaged in this world.
Muktee comes through Simran of true Naam Sabad.  


Balbir Singh


----------



## pk70 (Apr 18, 2008)

Balbir Singh  Ji,

*Sorry to say that I haven’t found any merit in you debating. You jump from a point and come up with another one which has no importance in relevance to the debating point. It is not only I observed, many have and expressed their views in aligning to my conclusion.*
*Question rises” why to waste time on a guy who claims to be blessed one by frequently stating only blessed one experience; however acts just contrary to the standard of Divinity. I am going to post here your posts in response to various members of this site just to prove how good you are at avoiding reason, playing word games and when logically shut up, you start taking U TURN from your own statements. Aad002 ji has very civil way put your laundry before you but you just refuge to recognize it.*
*First of all I shall start with posts in # 683.*
  Namjap ji just suggested you to be fare
Following was wrote by Namjap ji
  Let me give you an analogy Balbir Singh Ji.
Kauda Rakshash fell on Guru Nanak's feet. Why ? Was it because he saw Guru Nanak's swaroop (Physical body) and instantly recognised him ? The answer is No. 
He asked for Guru Ji's forgiveness when he heard Guru Ji's wisdom. This same wisdom of all the Guru Jees are in SGGS. Do Sikhs need another Guru ? Answer is No.

Balbir Singh Ji, in the past you have started many threads with funny titles e.g. Who's the Mother of Waheguru. I won't say that you haven't changed because you have. I might have to close this thread because you are found wanting by spreading negativity under the guise of helping the readers.
*Give me an authentic reason why I shouldn't close this thread and allow it to be continued.*

*Your response*
  Namjap Jee!
Truth is not easy to swallow, specially for those whose mouth is full of lies.

*This is the way you have responded, do you remember my quote about your being unable to swallow the truth about intelligence of members of this site?( yopu may say please give it again here because game is to go on. You are just trying that here man, you do not speak the truth. Right on this site it is proven you lie*

  You also boast in 683 that some members of this site tried in vain to divert topics, every body should know how quickly you divert, then blame others. Here is your another blame
  “some posters have tried their best to divert the topic vainly. Can they really hide ignorance?  The blessed ones receive the Sabad Guru in present life. They do not need another Guru anymore.

*Look at the last sentence, I have underlined it.  No clarity, a space is kept to debate further and if caught, subject can be changed. How? The blessed ones, who? You never answered the question even when you were asked to. Receive Shabad Guru? What do you mean by that here ? Next sentence is about rejection of Guru. This is totally against Gurmat.  Sikhs are tought to ponder over Gurbani, and seek the creator. After saying that, I must mention that you state many times Sikhs Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Total ambiguous commentary, throwing a bait to listen to the *****.

  Quote "It may harm some new comers."(683)

  Above you are suggested by namjap ji that your confusing and contradictory statements may confuse new comers, look what is your resoponse
It may harm the business of many fake Baabaas.( 683)
*This is a hint towards your own business otherwise when others debate, they talk against Babaas and fake preachers but do not talk about their business. Who worries if a new business is open, the customers or the existing owner of a place?Hope point is clear.*

   YOUR Quote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the present Guru of Sikhs. Should Sikhs follow their present Guru or fake Baabaas and preachers who are teaching Sikhs from other writers?
  Just above you said” The blessed ones receive the Sabad Guru in present life. They do not need another Guru anymore”. *This statement is just to disguise as a believer of Guru Granth Sahib Ji because you wouldn’t deny need of Guru otherwise.*


Down you questions translator or Tirlochan Ji
AMiq kwil nwrwiexu ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]
ANiq kwil nwrwexu ismrY EysI icNqw mih jy mrY ]
anti kaali naaraa-inu simrai aisee chintaa mahi jay marai.
End time remembers Naaraayan, dies in such thoughts,

bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMbru vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]
bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMb{ vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]
badati tilochanu tay nar muktaa peetambaru vaa kay ridai basai. ||5||2|| SGGS Ang 526-10
Speaks Tilochan, that Nar is liberated. Peetaamber resides in his heart.

My curiosity is to know why these preachers are leading Sikhs away from their Sabad Guru, suggested by the true Gurus innumerable times.

*I am also not happy with English translation because words some time sound cripple; however, right here, translator is doing if not very good at least O.K. Now question is, who are the preachers here? Good example of ambiguity to linger on*

  Now lets take another example, question is asked by mkm
   "Are you suggesting that since"Guru manyo Granth" is not in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhs should not believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Shabad Guru?"
  Your answer
Sikhs are tamed to believe that the message 'Guru manyo Granth' is from Guru Gobind Singh Jee. This is a false information and misleading. 
*Lets assume, you got elevation about this truth, why couldn’t  have you answered it with explanation.  Questioner is pointing out about believing in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, not who said or not. If Sikhs believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then the statement is not misleading them. *
  Your quote(numerously repeated)
Truthful Sikhs deserve truth.
*Well, where is the truth then?*

  Quote from Singh Jee "This is ridiculous, Sikhs are debating about if we need another Guru."
  Here is your response
Ridiculous is to seek any other Guru than the Sabad Guru, the true Naam.
  Singh ji is strictly talking about the thread, and your answer has no relevance to his( I hope)  statement.
*Another example of your games.

* Singh ji Quote "I humbly say to you stop this nonsense we have one Guru and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib."
  Look at your response
It is perfectly all right. Please have it. May I ask? When will people follow the true Guru?
*What is this? A strategy to linger on

* Singh Ji Quote "Humbly bow down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib for Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our living Guru.
  Look at your reaction"
Please do not let someone cheat your soul listening, the living Baabaa sitting beside the true Guru.   
*What if Singh ji has Guru Granth Sahib Ji at home, will you be able declare there is a Baba behind GGS Ji?  This is merit less reaction*

  AAD JI ASKING TO DISCUSS THE POINT INSTEAD OF GOING AWAY HERE IS YOUR ANSWER  Quote "If there is no need to discuss this then why did you start the thread in the first place?"
*Your response about same the Babaas
*Many Baabaas on stages in front of the Sikh audience are preaching that it is enough to have the printed message of the Gurus. God's Grace will fall on its possessors automatically.
*That is not what she said, is it little difficulty to understand simple English?*
God's Grace falls on a person when he receives true Naam Sabad and comes to know its Simran.
*This is a statement no one, I am aware of, ever questioned, you keep using statements like this like a ritual*
*Again Babaas  are not going out of your mind, *
 Your QouteThis is the difference. All the Gurus say that the Sabad Guru and God are the same.
The fake Baabaas but say that God and the printed material bounded are the samein the 



  Again Quote from Balbir Singh now a Baabaa who can share the Godly wisdom of Naam or true Sabad with seekers?" 

Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee' response "YES Balbir Ji...The Baaba is "BABA NANAK" and we can all read what He has to say in the SGGS....from Panna 1 - 1429...."
   See your response
Some Baabaas claim to have met Guru Naanak Jee.
*Why Babas phobia is expressed again and again, we don’t care about them, HIS HuKam prevails During Guru Sahibaan times, there were meane, pirthya, who cares, Sikhism is alive*
*Always You ask others to give quote, look how you answer same kind of question*
  mkmQuote "You should give valid quotes who are those saad or saint if Sikhs cannot receive Naam from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee?"(683Post)

Please throw away the chaff (preachers) from mind and read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee again.

   aad0002 ji” to make you aware how you stooped low but look how you are reacting
  uote "I asked you questions and you have attached my name with PR70. I read PK70 posts but am told by you only that there is PK70 group."
It does not matter how many masks a person wears. One recognizes the pudding head by his actions.

*This is both a personal attack and you have used a derogatory term to describe mkm . A pudding head is a derogatory terMy comments are as a participant. I recuse myself as a moderator. But another moderator has already requested that you and others turn down the heat. 

*
  __________________

*Perhaps aad0002 ji first made you aware of the fact that you are insulting other member then she writes up the “disclosure as MOD*
*You ignored both and came up with new kind of game of words. Here is your response*

   moderating suits, your nature better.
  My statements are not personal. Those are general as I have observed. An individual should not take it personally either
  .
* Only  YOU are right*

   Another quote from aad002 ji Quote "If this is your message then why are you posting in forums? That is why I asked you before, Why did you start a thread about Sikhs and Guru and then turn around and tell us not to discuss these points because all we should be doing is jap? Since everything we read and hear is false, we should jap. Some of us jap, some discuss, and some of us jap and discuss. What are you trying to say?"
  Here is your response, 

Should participants stop discussing and referring the true Gurus because they have already written everything important? 
Perhaps some may prefer to discuss other writers like many preachers are doing in Gurdwaaraas. 
*You even didn’t read her comments and came up with your Babaas phobia again*
*Here is another nonsense question from you? *
*“Can someone please refer one Vaak from the true Gurus that explain? One receives True Sabad or Naam through a Granth?(**UR** Q)*


*Go on  page 387, 449 , 759, 1043, meaning in  essence  of a couple Vaak, answer is there*
*Embrace the love for the Guru’s hymns, if HE become merciful the pain is destroyed.(387)*
*“They to whose soul the Hymns of GOD are pleasing, continually quaff the nector. The Guru being pleased, I have obtained God and shall no more be pushed and buffeted(449)*

*As per your limited knowledge of Gurbani, you can ask again a question(experience from your statements) Where is the word Granth?*
*If that occurs, one must believe that stupidly has many colors. Source of Guru’s hymns, Gurbani, is Guru Granth Sahib,  Sikhs do not need to find a special word for that. Aadooo2 ji explained you in detail how people learn from Guru Granth Sahib Ji but your memory is not commendable.*

  I am quoting same quote of yours again
  Can someone please refer one Vaak from the true Gurus that explains? One receives True Sabad or Naam through a Granth?
*You wrote”” a Granth, very ambiguous again, if it is referred to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, why “Guru” word is gone?*
  Again in 683 post you write
  Who does not know this situation among Sikhs? My strong wish is to see the old, new and coming generation progressing in spiritual as well in worldly matters. It is just not possible with the ways they are preparing preachers, in my observation.

*You wish that, but what about yourself, still a victim of contradiction, turning mean to those who questions you? Never expressed sorry but came with defensive words like this
* Your quote”My questions are not to tease anybody.” 683 post


  Very fairly namjap ji is addressing you

  Let me give you an analogy Balbir Singh Ji.

Kauda Rakshash fell on Guru Nanak's feet. Why ? Was it because he saw Guru Nanak's swaroop (Physical body) and instantly recognised him ? The answer is No. 
He asked for Guru Ji's forgiveness when he heard Guru Ji's wisdom. This same wisdom of all the Guru Jees are in SGGS. Do Sikhs need another Guru ? Answer is No.

Balbir Singh Ji, in the past you have started many threads with funny titles e.g. Who's the Mother of Waheguru. I won't say that you haven't changed because you have. I might have to close this thread because you are found wanting by spreading negativity under the guise of helping the readers.
*Give me an authentic reason why I shouldn't close this thread and allow it to be continued.* NAMJAP

  Speaking about sargun roop   
I have seen lost creatures carrying a copy of the printed book and searching for the Sabad Guru.

Have the moderators given up the hopes that a participant may say something about the true Naam Sabad? They may close the thread.

Your quote” Speaking about sargun roop   
I have seen lost creatures carrying a copy of the printed book and searching for the Sabad Guru.

*That is what you think about other human beings*


*NOW coming back to  this present thread*
*THis is tthe way you started it, *
    Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth.
ਮੈਨਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਮਨਾਊਂ॥ਕਿਸ਼ਨਬਿਸ਼ਨਕਬਹੂੰਨਹਧਿਆਊਂ॥
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| 
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu


Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.
ਵਵਾਬਾਰਬਾਰਬਿਸਨਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ॥ 
ववाबारबारबिसनसम्हारि॥ 
vavā bār bār bisan samĥār. 
WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord.
  See HERE
  In response to that  I said



MyQuote "The comparision seems out of context."
Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though.
  READ ORIGINAL AND TRANSLATIONSਮੈਨਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਮਨਾਊਂ॥ਕਿਸ਼ਨਬਿਸ਼ਨਕਬਹੂੰਨਹਧਿਆਊਂ॥
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| 
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu

Lets see if the translation are different?
Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.
ਵਵਾਬਾਰਬਾਰਬਿਸਨਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ॥ 
ववाबारबारबिसनसम्हारि॥ 
vavā bār bār bisan samĥār. 
WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord. 


ਬਿਸਨਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿਨਆਵੈਹਾਰਿ॥ 
बिसनसम्हारिनआवैहारि॥ 
Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10
Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you.
*Here you’re in an  attempt to distort to use for your aim, that is all, I ignored your distortion though, you should have been questioned right there about distorted interpretation since all Sikh’s Guru Sahiban were believer of only deathless birthless entity of God and to understand sargun sroop of the Creator at the same time. Sargun sroop becomes obstacle to realize Nirgun sroop, I gave a quote, denial surged as per hope*
  You questioned me with my response
 "In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
Please provide a reference from the reverend Gurus where they have explained that Bisan is the creator. I will be grateful

My response Respectfully I have to explain what I meant. As you have put a question “May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful. *SoI answered it.*
*I was just referring to the use of words like Bisan, Ram, Brahama. They are used in Gurbani in both ways. One for The Creator and the other for well established Hindu Gods/Avtar as well. Here are the following examples where Satguru Nanak uses Bisan in the same sense Guru Gobind Singh ji used as per your quote.*


*ਤੀਆ**ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ**ਬਿਸਨੁ**ਮਹੇਸਾ**॥**ਦੇਵੀ**ਦੇਵ**ਉਪਾਏ**ਵੇਸਾ 839*
*ਤ੍ਰਿਆਖਹਿ**ਬਰਮੇ**ਆਖਹਿ**ਇੰਦ**॥26 0 Jap Ji*

*Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar*

*ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ**ਬਿਸਨੁ**ਮਹੇਸੁ**ਦੇਵ**ਉਪਾਇਆ**॥**ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ**ਦਿਤੇ**ਬੇਦ**ਪੂਜਾ**ਲਾਇਆ**॥**ਦਸ**ਅਵਤਾਰੀ**ਰਾਮੁ**ਰਾਜਾ**ਆਇਆ**॥** (1279)*

*In the following Guru waak use of **“**Ram**”** is quite contrary to the above use ( GGSJI 1279.), I mean it is used for The Creator, see below*

*ਤਿਨ**ਮਹਿ**ਰਾਮੁ**ਰਹਿਆ**ਭਰਪੂਰ**॥37 Japji*

*I have expressed my opinions; you have the right to have your opinions about the “Truth” Obviously we disagree about” the Truth “strongly if I may say this!*
*Here you have picked up a new word”Hindu” for a game instead of paying attention to Satguru Nanak’s Vaak quoted above *

  You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted
bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ] 
barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18
Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created.

Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.
Please let all know what has convinced you that they are Hindu.




  I quoted



*ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ**ਰਾਮੁ**ਰਾਜਾ**ਆਇਆ**॥(1279)*
*ਤਿਨ**ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ**ਰਹਿਆ**ਭਰਪੂਰ**॥37 Japji*
*In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically.*
*In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature.*
*Ur** response u eat up all the rest to avoid*
ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀਰਾਮੁਰਾਜਾਆਇਆ॥(1279)
ਤਿਨਮਹਿਰਾਮੁਰਹਿਆਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji

Quote "In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically."
*Your response
Thanks for no more entitling Him a Hindu. God's loving activity 'Ram Chandar' is also active in Sikhs. This is governing that is why it is The King.*
*   So you turn happy because Hindu word was not used*

  HERE IS UR translation lets see how accurate is it

ਮੈਨਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਮਨਾਊਂ॥ਕਿਸ਼ਨਬਿਸ਼ਨਕਬਹੂੰਨਹਧਿਆਊਂ॥ਕਾਨਸੁਨੇਪਹਿਚਾਨਨਤਿਨਸੋਂ॥ਲਿਵਲਾਗੀਮੋਰੀਪਗਇਨਸੋਂ॥੪੩੪॥
I do not persuade Ganesha first. I never meditate Kishan, Bishan. Ears listen but have no cognition. My consciousness is devoted at their feet.

*Mr. Original ji(others are translators as per your accusation), in the above vaak, author is saying clearly he is not meditating on them, why he would devote himself to their feet then? This is an axample of an attempt to distort Guru Vaak to perceive a new cult obliviously*

*I advised u when u used harsh words against me but u have nothing to do with Gurbani*
*as you do, becomes a joke then. Here is Gurdev waak to keep in mind*
hm nhI cMgy burw nhI koie ] pRxviq nwnku qwry soie ]4]1]2] {pMnw 728}
(I am not good; no one is bad. Prays Nanak, He alone saves u

*What happened after that, you dragged mkm with my name obviously you have no regard for Gurbani, it is a business as usual.*

*Now come back to Kamalpati word*
*ਚਾਰਿ **ਬੇਦ **ਅਰੁ **ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ **ਪੁਰਾਨਾਂ **॥**ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ **ਕਵਲਾ **ਨਹੀ **ਜਾਨਾਂ **॥**੩**॥ 
chaar baedh ar sinmrith puraanaan || kamalaapath kavalaa nehee jaanaan ||3||
The four Vedas, the Simritees and the Puraanas, Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of them know the Lord. ||3||*
*It is still common in Punjab, people with name” Kawnal, are also called as Kamal, what a big deal, person is the same, Kabir ji at one place called Vishnu, bisn and another place Kamalpati, he is the same, Vishnu, Bisn.  Saying it last time, you need to study Gurbani, it is not as simple as you boast about.*
*GOD’s names are numerous, they name HIM but fail to know HIM*

   This is my quote"Nanak panth word was never used by any Guru in Guru Granth Sahib Ji; however, every one knows what Nanak panth is."
   Here is your response
Guru Naanak Jee walked and talked of only one Panth. That is Hari Panth.
Strange, lost Baabaas agree that Naanak Panth word was never used by any Guru in Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Still, they try to convince others that everyone knows what Naanak Panth is.
*What you are saying Nanak Panth is used in Guru Granth Sahib? You cannot say even that because you have very poor knowledge about Guru Granth Sahib Ji’s Structure because you asked me to prove if Guru Angad dev haven’t written i "pauri"(stanza)n your yesterdays’s post  I shall clear that too later in this post.  What is this new term HARI PANTH? A cult’s name?*

  MY quote
  I gave u  guru vaak, GGSJI P-1279, name of bani but u kept saying it belongs to Second Mehl, first you said you couldn’t  remember, here ur quotebRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] (17, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv)
bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] (17, mlwr, gurU AMgd dyv) SGGS 1279
*I gave you page, author of Rag Milaar Ki Vaar, you are just not accepting it. Every one who is reading this can find out on Guru Granth Darpan.com page 1279. See, you were saying to namjap ji, it is hard to swallow truth, how easy you swallow the truth with a factual support?*

*When I questioned your tactics to avoid truth, your response says all about you*
  My quote"You are habitual of asking” where is it in Guru Granth Sahib?” “ Does Guru say that?” Surprisingly there is a lot of things which are not found in Guru Granth Sahib ji but they are inseparable part of Sikhism like no reference is found in Guru Granth Sahib ji about Guru Har Rai, Guru Har Krishan ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji but they are inseparable part of Sikhism."
*Your answer*

The topic is about God's Attributes, not any Guru in human body of history.
All true Gurus love to sing God's Attributes, not about the history of their body.

*I wrote about your statement in which you say” Raam Chand permeates in Sikhs. my
Quote "This statement of yours is very funny. Ram Chandrar is not active in Sikhs as you claim.*
*Your answer*"
Please listen. Gurdev is singing.
sBY Gt rwmu bolY rwmw bolY ]
rwm ibnw ko bolY ry ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 988-16

rwmcMd kI lsitkw ijin mwirAw rogu ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 817-4

sRI rwmcMd ijsu rUpu n ryiKAw ] SGGS 1082-9

*In above quotes, if you read whole shabad, you fill be surprised that it is not your Ram of Ayudhya, it is Creator, Guru called HIM Raam, Ram Chand


*

*Because of shallow knowledge about GGS JI, you are adamant to accept a fact*. t*his a wonderful proof how you take refuge in denial, check it out yourself. Quote is from Pauri(stanza), Guru Angad Dev never wrote a Vaar or a pouri(stanza) of any Vaar, study structure of GGS Ji, secondly, this stanza is authored by Guru Nanak.*
pauVI ] bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ] dYqw mwry Dwie hukim sbwieAw ] eIs mhysuru syv iqn@I AMqu n pwieAw ] scI kImiq pwie qKqu rcwieAw ] dunIAw DMDY lwie Awpu CpwieAw ] Drmu krwey krm Durhu PurmwieAw ]3] (pMnw 1279)s
   You asked meYour question itself says you do not know how Guru Granth Sahib Ji is compiled. There are Vaars, in those Vaars, some slokes from Guru Angad Dev ji are given, there is no pauri(stanza) written by Guru Angad Dev, it is a fact, you need to study real hard because your question is out of line

*Another post you questioned me, it is there,QT” Did Gurudev use*
* words wife or brother in the following Guru Vaak?”*
* Though it is another game of word ;however, Sita Laxaman had relation with Ram Chand of Ayudhya, I have to explain it to you, why? Hoping you will end a stupid game of words, but you didn’t and cannot.*
*] rovY rwmu inkwlw BieAw ] sIqw lKmxu ivCuiV gieAw ] rovY dhisru lµk gvwie ] ijin sIqw AwdI faurU vwie*

*Here is your another distortion of Gurbani, *

  Your quote 
Ab mo kau Bey rwjw rwm shweI ]
jnm mrn kit prm giq pweI ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 331-4

Whom Raajaa Raam has helped, their birth and death are gone and have received Param Gati.
What will happen with those who claim that Raajaa Raam is not active in them?
*Original one ji, come out of dreams, it is all about The Creator, Raja word is also used for Creator. Whenever Guru ji gives reference to Ram King of Ayudhya, his actions are referred, story is referred. Don’t force on Sikhs your Hare Rama, Hare  on  Sikhs*. 

+++++

kih kbIr rwjw rwm n Cofau sgl aUc qy aUcw ] SGGS 338-14
Kbeer says 'I do not leave Raaja Raam, Sagal Ooch te Oochaa.
What will happen with one who is falling in deep darkness leaving Raajaa Raam?

*Again, that Ram Raja you are referring is dead, Kabir ji is talking about the eternal RAM, who is real KING, The CREATOR*
  tYour Quote They may never let anyone recognize Raam who also weeps rarely in someone when He feels separated from God.

*Only Nirgun sroop is realized not the sargun sroop,  we are in it, because sargun sroop is a part of HIS creation-MAYA,  so only you understand HIS sargun Sroop Period*

*HERE another distortion its pronunciation is RAM not RAMU  use od onkr(_) read Dr SAHIB SINGH ji Grammar of Gurbani, his interpretation is way much clearer than yours because he know, you are a “guessman” *
nw Eih mrih n Twgy jwih ]
nw Aoih mrih n Twgy jwih ]
naa ohi mareh na thaagay jaahi.

ijn kY rwmu vsY mn mwih ]
ijn kY rwmu vsY mn mwih ]
jin kai raam vasai man maahi. SGGS 8-4

  Your quote
  Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaak from Guru Arjan Dev Jee.
so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI ] jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] SGGS 1136-5.
*This is your explanation of the above Vaak. "Guru ji realized deathless, birth less Ram but not your king Ram of Ayudhya, a Sargun sroop. Sargun sroop is just HIS impression only."
* Your Qt Translated Sikh Jee, please explain. Does Gurdev uses the word Raam in this Vaak? 
Please do not worry if Raam is mine and of the Gurus.
*You here totally sound like a translated Sikh as you give decree on others, now above statement is an answer to your previous question that Guru  Ji didn’t realize your Ram Of Ayudhya but Nirgun Sroop of Creator who is deathless and birthless. Why even we need to look for a word “Ram” here? Your Ram is dead, Deathless and birthless Ram was realized by Guru. Why I am using word Name Ram here? To clarify about your bogus logic that  Ram of Ayudhya( I use word Ayudhya to  make you clear Guru ji just gave refrence to that sansari Ram you are stuck with) was realized by Sikh Gurus and that dead man permeates in Sikhs.Any sensible individual will understand what I answered*
* Finally, you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I *
*waste my tim*e *on an entertainment of  a confused mind. Numerous shops are opened in the name of NAAM, so what if I ignore another one. AND, I WOULD DO*


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 19, 2008)

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ&shy;i&shy;ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
*Guru Arjan Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥
रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥
Rām ga&shy;i&shy;o rāvan ga&shy;i&shy;o jā ka&shy;o baho parvār.
Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives.
*Guru Teg Bahadur*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 19, 2008)

*Deletion: Personal attacks against both a moderator and a forum member. Please observe forum rules. *


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 19, 2008)

[SIZE=-1]ਆਸਾ ਇਕਤੁਕੇ ੪ ॥
आसा इकतुके ४ ॥
Āsā ikṯukė 4.
Aasaa, 4 Ik-Tukas:
ਸਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਲੀਆ ॥
सरपनी ते ऊपरि नही बलीआ ॥
Sarpanī ṯė ūpar nahī balī&shy;ā.
No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya,
ਜਿਨਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਛਲੀਆ ॥੧॥
जिनि ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ छलीआ ॥१॥
Jin barahmā bisan mahāḏė&shy;o cẖẖalī&shy;ā. ||1||
who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1||
ਮਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੁ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ ਪੈਠੀ ॥
मारु मारु स्रपनी निरमल जलि पैठी ॥
Mār mār sarpanī nirmal jal paiṯẖī.
Having bitten and struck them down, she now sits in the immaculate waters.
ਜਿਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਡਸੀਅਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਡੀਠੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जिनि त्रिभवणु डसीअले गुर प्रसादि डीठी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jin ṯaribẖavaṇ dasī&shy;alė gur parsāḏ dīṯẖī. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
By Guru's Grace, I have seen her, who has bitten the three worlds. ||1||Pause||
[/SIZE]

...................................................................................

ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਅਕਾਰ ॥
पवणु पाणी अगनि तिनि कीआ ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस अकार ॥
Pavaṇ pāṇī agan ṯin kī&shy;ā barahmā bisan mahės akār.
He created air, water and fire, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva - the whole creation.
ਸਰਬੇ ਜਾਚਿਕ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੪॥
सरबे जाचिक तूं प्रभु दाता दाति करे अपुनै बीचार ॥४॥
Sarbė jācẖik ṯūŉ parabẖ ḏāṯā ḏāṯ karė apunai bīcẖār. ||4||
All are beggars; You alone are the Great Giver, God. You give Your gifts according to Your own considerations. ||4||

.................................................................................................

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa&shy;oṛī.
Pauree:
ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸਣੁ ਖੜੇ ॥
तुधु धिआइन्हि बेद कतेबा सणु खड़े ॥
Ŧuḏẖ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;īniĥ bėḏ kaṯėbā saṇ kẖaṛė.
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.
ਗਣਤੀ ਗਣੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਰਿ ਪੜੇ ॥
गणती गणी न जाइ तेरै दरि पड़े ॥
Gaṇṯī gaṇī na jā&shy;ė ṯėrai ḏar paṛė.
Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਾ ॥
ब्रहमे तुधु धिआइन्हि इंद्र इंद्रासणा ॥
Barahmė ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;īniĥ inḏar inḏrāsaṇā.
Brahma meditates on You, as does Indra on his throne.
ਸੰਕਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣਾ ॥
संकर बिसन अवतार हरि जसु मुखि भणा ॥
Sankar bisan avṯār har jas mukẖ bẖaṇā.
Shiva and Vishnu, and their incarnations, chant the Lord's Praise with their mouths,
ਪੀਰ ਪਿਕਾਬਰ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਅਉਲੀਏ ॥
पीर पिकाबर सेख मसाइक अउलीए ॥
Pīr pikābar sėkẖ masā&shy;ik a&shy;ulī&shy;ė.
as do the Pirs, the spiritual teachers, the prophets and the Shaykhs, the silent sages and the seers.
ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਮਉਲੀਏ ॥
ओति पोति निरंकार घटि घटि मउलीए ॥
Oṯ poṯ nirankār gẖat gẖat ma&shy;ulī&shy;ė.
Through and through, the Formless Lord is woven into each and every heart.
ਕੂੜਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ਧਰਮੇ ਤਗੀਐ ॥
कूड़हु करे विणासु धरमे तगीऐ ॥
Kūṛahu karė viṇās ḏẖarmė ṯagī&shy;ai.
One is destroyed through falsehood; through righteousness, one prospers.
ਜਿਤੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਗੀਐ ॥੨॥
जितु जितु लाइहि आपि तितु तितु लगीऐ ॥२॥
Jiṯ jiṯ lā&shy;ihi āp ṯiṯ ṯiṯ lagī&shy;ai. ||2||
Whatever the Lord links him to, to that he is linked. ||2||


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Naam Jap Jee!

This is your wish. The Satsang must go on.

It may increase your curiosity.

The true Guru's Vaaks are these, with translations provided.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥ 
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā. 
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. 


ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥ 
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā. 
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. 

Please ponder. How is this possible? In the referred first Vaak the great Raam Chand has no form and feature. In the next Vaak He is adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in His hand, His form is incomparably beautiful.

**************

Thanks for referring the great Vaaks from the true Gurus mentioning Bisan.
Those all are clearly explaining that Maya has deceived Bisan. HE created Bisan and Bisan chants Hari praise.
Not one of these Vaaks explains that Bisan is the creator.


Balbir Singh


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 19, 2008)

Dear PK70
 your quote"* you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I **waste my tim*e *on an entertainment of  a confused mind."

I whole heartedly support you on your above statement. Personal hostility expressed against moderators. Debate the issues.  **have said in. PK70, You have done a good job at  post his laundry on the net. Please debate the issues.  Not matter how correct one is he will tell you that you are wrong. This is a long post and I enjoyed reading it. I could not help it to congratulate you. Good job. Please debate the issues not the personalities of moderators. **

Just as a point in passing,  when Guru ji refers to Ram the King as an example to make a point, he is emphasized as so, all other places Ram is referred to as a Godly attribute.

Kind regards

ekmusafir ajnabi

Same as above. *


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 19, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Naam Jap Jee!
> 
> This is your wish. The Satsang must go on.
> ...


 

Balbir Singh Ji,

This verse of Guru Arjan Dev ji - 
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ&shy;i&shy;ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
*Guru Arjan Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

Are you asking that it is not possible for Raam Chand (one of the Avtaars) to have no form ? 

What do you understand by Gur Ishar Gur Gorakh Brahma, Gur Parbati Mai ?

The True Guru is "sarab viapak" - sargun and nirgun. True Guru is Nirankar.
He can take any form He likes. If words to explain the highest Absolute, beyond duality residing Lord God has to be used e.g. Nirankar - devotees of Raam Chand who only know Raam Chand and no one else, have to be explained step by step. Semantics ? Partly yes. 

It's like explaining to a kid what estacy means. So we have to go down to the kid's level and start explaining to him/her something he/she can relate to.

Balbir Singh Ji - don't make chatnee out of every thing because you are already tasting your chatnee of Shabad which is within you. Written words cannot convey the real message. You have to taste the chatnee to understand and experience. If you are already experience that 'chatnee' then why bother to come down the rung and create duplicate chatnee in the realm of the written word and spoken speech ?

Charan Kamal Ki Mauj Mein,
Rahay ant ar aad

Did I get the tuk right, PK70 Jee ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 19, 2008)

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਹਿ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਡੋਲੈ ਦੇਵ ॥
चरन कमल जा कै रिदै बसहि सो जनु किउ डोलै देव ॥
Cẖaran kamal jā kai riḏai baseh so jan ki&shy;o dolai ḏėv.
When Your Lotus Feet dwell within one's heart, why should that person waver, O Divine Lord?
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਕੀ ਮਉਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਉ ਅੰਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਆਦਿ ॥੧੨੦॥
चरन कमल की मउज महि रहउ अंति अरु आदि ॥१२०॥
Cẖaran kamal kī ma&shy;uj meh raha&shy;o anṯ ar āḏ. ||120||
From beginning to end, I abide in the joy of the Lord's Lotus Feet. ||120||
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


----------



## drkhalsa (Apr 19, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Dear PK70
> your quote"* you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I **waste my tim*e *on an entertainment of  a confused mind."
> 
> I whole heartedly support you on your above statement. Personal hostility expressed against moderators. Debate the issues.  **have said in. PK70, You have done a good job at  post his laundry on the net. Please debate the issues.  Not matter how correct one is he will tell you that you are wrong. This is a long post and I enjoyed reading it. I could not help it to congratulate you. Good job. Please debate the issues not the personalities of moderators. **
> ...



Dear EkMusafir ji 

Welcome Back !

Your love for Spn and its posters seems to be ever ending that brings you back yet again .

and I am sorry I missed your Kind words( your post was edited before I read it ) abou t me .But  I am sure you have something ineresting and valuable for us .

YOu can share your knowledge about the topic and let all of us know what you think beside your whole hearted support of Sarcastic remarks written by other posters

Thanks

Jatinder Singh


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 19, 2008)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear EkMusafir ji
> 
> Welcome Back !
> 
> ...



Dear Jatinder ji,

I was not sharing rocket science but it seemed to have gone beyond the understanding of Aad ji that as usual and as expected she takes a keen interest in cut-cut-cut . I was merely admiring you for being the only one with the ability to understand (perhaps due to your medical experience) Balbir Singh. Aad ji was also his devotee  for a considerable time but  has fallen  behind (perhaps become wiser) whereas you are still standing your ground but are being  ignored by him and pleading for attention.  

As far as knowledge is concerned it will make no difference even if the truth was staring at ones face, (nothing personal to you) so why disrespect Gurbani among those who have no respect in the first instant.



> your quote"* you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I **waste my tim*e *on an entertainment of  a confused mind."
> *


This quote by PK70 is an excellent analysis of Balbir Singh. Some names come to mind that I would like to add to  it but  that will not serve any purpose. 

I will keep a copy of this on the computer in case Aad ji has another uncontrolable urge to exercise cut cut cut. I will pm the contents for you.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


Please feel free to delete it after reading it.


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 19, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Dear Jatinder ji,
> 
> I was not sharing rocket science but it seemed to have gone beyond the understanding of Aad ji that as usual and as expected she takes a keen interest in cut-cut-cut . I was merely admiring you for being the only one with the ability to understand (perhaps due to your medical experience) Balbir Singh. Aad ji was also his devotee  for a considerable time but  has fallen  behind (perhaps become wiser) whereas you are still standing your ground but are being  ignored by him and pleading for attention.
> 
> ...



This post of yours I will not alter. Let others see for themselves and decide for themselves.* You are warned. The goading of members and moderators must stop. *Learning can move forward in tolerance even for the views of even those who are ridiculous; or learning can wither in an atmosphere of sarcasm and ridicule. 

*1. Respect:* Treat all members with the kind of respect that you expect from them in return for yourself.

*2. Unity in Diversity: * Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.

*4. Introspection: * Try to find your own fault and purify your mind.

*5. Karma:* Always check your karma and its fruit from participating in this network.

*7. Moderation:* SPN Management reserves all the rights to delete or modify all the 

*10. Personal Attacks or Sect Bashing:* Do not engage in personal attacks or sect bashing. HATE MESSAGES WILL BE REMOVED WITHOUT NOTICE.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Namjap Jee!

Quote "Are you asking that it is not possible for Raam Chand (one of the Avtaars) to have no form ?"
No. Raam Chand also merges in the formless God. Anyone may merge into God with true Hari Naam Sabad.
Please first try to get the correct translation.

Quote "What do you understand by Gur Ishar Gur Gorakh Brahma, Gur Parbati Mai ?"
This is another great Vaak from Gurdev. Please start a new topic to enjoy it.

Quote " If you are already experience that 'chatnee' then why bother to come down the rung and create duplicate chatnee in the realm of the written word and spoken speech ?"
I do not know why God is engaged in such activities through us right now.


Balbir Singh


----------



## drkhalsa (Apr 19, 2008)

Dear ekmusafir_ajnabi


YOu have rasied some points that are concerned with me and I fully agree with all of them without any hesitation at ll what so ever .
Infact I welcome such comments toward me ( plz spare other who dont want such comments)


I dont wish to speak for others but I dont have any doubt about it that I dont have any disrespect for  gurbani although I dont understand much of gurbani in my present understanding but I am making little progress everyday 

In the process if I have to fall at feet of other like you than I thinkit is my destiny written by one himself.

so take care and share your view point in good spirit and always remeber what anybody thinks and write on forum is not REALITY but a viewpoint of it so take things in their relative prospective and it can make things easier 

Thanks for you post 

Jatinder Singh


----------



## Astroboy (Apr 20, 2008)

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
Jisahi jagā&shy;ė pī&shy;āvai ih ras akath kathā ṯin jānī. ||2||
Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
*Guru Arjan Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


Gurdev is singing in Raag Guaree - and I understand this that we have to be awakened by the Lord first before he makes us drinketh of the sublime essence. And only after we drink/partake this SE that we can come to know of this Unspoken Speech. 

Three steps to it, Balbir Singh Ji.
No.1  -  to be awakened
No.2 - Drink the SE
No.3 - Know the US

Kindly explain (without opening a new thread) how one should go about having No.1 first.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 20, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Namjap Jee!

Thanks for the truthful, simple and straight Vaak from Gurdev.

In my experience the order list is as follows.

No.1 - Whom He awakes.
No.2 - He makes one to drink this Ras.
No.3 - One comes to know the Kathaa that he cannot tell.

Till then this Sansaar is in Bikaar and sansai and finds a ground to sleep further.

One comes to know the taste of Naam Ras and wonders. God wakes him up and he realizes the true Kathaa.

Total awakening is Brahm Gyaan, the wisdom of totality.


Balbir Singh


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 20, 2008)

Nam Jap, in my view --

These points you make are, in my humble opinion, the keys, essential for eventually understanding, why we are here in this thread and on this earth. These questions are the keys that open the gates to the fortress so that we can start on the path with renewed understanding. 




namjap said:


> ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
> जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
> Jisahi jagā*ė pī*āvai ih ras akath kathā ṯin jānī. ||2||
> Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
> ...


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 20, 2008)

Balbir ji and other jios,

I have gone back once again to examine the ideas that started this threa d,

First Balbir, you said

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth.

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu


Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.
ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥
ववा बार बार बिसन सम्हारि ॥
vavā bār bār bisan samĥār.
WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord.


ਬਿਸਨ ਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥
बिसन सम्हारि न आवै हारि ॥
Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10
Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you.

May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.


Balbir Singh
 
--------------------------

 Then I responded

My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways.

Your question, again, is very interesting.
__________________ 

Then Balbir ji, you responded

Quote "My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways."
In my observation, Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not use the number three nor Guru Arjan Dev Jee limited Lord within the number one in His Vaak. 

--------------------------

Then Nam Jap added this

Here are two quotes about Vishnu (Bishan) by Nanak V and Kabeer:-

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ मोहिआ ॥
Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o mohi*ā.
She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
कबीर बैसनो हूआ त किआ भइआ माला मेलीं चारि ॥
Kabīr baisno hū*ā ṯa ki*ā bẖa*i*ā mālā mėlīŉ cẖār.
Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas?
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
__________________ 

Following this pk70 added 

Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
I could not find one instance where Gurdev has called Bisan the creator. Please let all know which Baabaa has convinced people that Bisan is the creator, or it is your mind.


Bisan is Bisan. Bisan is not the creator who created Bisan. The same is with Raam, Brahma or Mahesh.

You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted
bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ]
barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18
Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created.

Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.
 
-------------------------

 Subsequently Archived Member 1

added this clarification in response to my understanding that Guru Gobind Singh was talking about aspects or attributes within the One God. 

you are exactly right. balbir "forgot" to post the complete line. posting half of a line of gurbani can be extremely misleading.


ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (Waheguru).434. 

---------------------

Susequently I quoted

 ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
kott bisan keenae avathaar ||
He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu.

Kishan is a reference to Krishna, and again this is not a simple matter.

ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||
Kisan is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?
Guru Amar Das, Ang 559

as well as 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
Guru Nanaak, Ang 908.  
---------------------------------------------------
 pk70 then wrote


Quote "As explained above, same 'RAM' word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator."
I could not find one reference where Guru Saahibaan have called Raam, Muraar, Krishna, Sanwla the creator. Please provide one reference and oblige

Sir I already gave quote about this, let me give once again

.
ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ॥(1279)
ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji
In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically.
In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature.

-----------------------------------------------------

Since then Nam Jap in more recent posts has added additional clarifications from Gurbani.

Balbir ji or anyone,

Compare the early comments with the latest comments. How much progress have we made answering the thread starting questions? Have we reached closure on Bisan? Or can we conclude that there are very understandaable reasons why Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Kabeer ji use "Bisan" differently to speak to  different issues. Yet their uses of Bisan are not in contradiction to Shabad Guru.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Apr 21, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "Compare the early comments with the latest comments. How much progress have we made answering the thread starting questions?"
Why have you missed my observation from this post?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...n-guru-gobind-singh-jee-kabeer.html#post76211

This is the emphasized part of that post.
"Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though."

Some participants tried their best to prove that Bisan of Kabeer Jee is the creator Himself while Bisan of Guru Gobind Singh Jee is the Hindu God.

Gurbaanee says. God created Bisan. All Activities belong to God. 
Ignorant categorize those under worldly religions.

Quote "Have we reached closure on Bisan? Or can we conclude that there are very understandaable reasons why Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Kabeer ji use "Bisan" differently to speak to different issues. Yet their uses of Bisan are not in contradiction to Shabad Guru."
The true Gurus suggest receiving the Sabad Guru. One does not need to borrow experiences anymore.

One other way is to discuss and go on referring. Who said what, where, and when?


Balbir Singh


----------

