# Why Do Indian Vegetarians Have A Problem With Eggs But Not With Milk?



## Randip Singh (Jun 22, 2012)

This question is not about Sikhism, but about the Indian mentality.

In the West vegetarians (not vegans), tend to eat eggs.

In India vegetarians drink milk but do not eat eggs.

Those of you who understand the biological process involved in both will know milk contains far more living organisms (like fat cells and blood cells) than eggs (which is a waste product and unfertilised).

I would request people don't get confused between a fertilised and unfertilised eggs. A fertislised egg produces a chick. An unfertilised egg produces nothing.

I asked a vegan friend of mine this question and her response was Indians are *dumb* and shouldn't be drinking milk if they don't want to eat any flesh (milk ineffect is liquified flesh). A bit of a generalisation on Indians from a very Liberal person, but it was her view.

her links on Cow milk:

http://www.veganoutreach.org/dairy/

http://www.chooseveg.com/dairy.asp

On how eggs are produced:

http://www.chow.com/food-news/54729/whats-the-difference-between-fertilized-and-unfertilized-eggs/


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## kds1980 (Jun 22, 2012)

Influence of Hinduism ,which consider milk as sacred  but eggs as untouchable food


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 22, 2012)

I have been thinking about it. I don't have eggs, but take milk products. It is like a diet plan I comply with. Obviously there is no feeling of eggs being impure and milk being holy (cow!). I think I once saw some eggs falling off a nest, and I felt sort of weird thing of a mother bird getting separated from would be youngling. And I have seen how some cows are treated, and depriving a calf of the milk is not the right thing to do either. I am not ready yet to give up milk, for that would create problems. Avoiding meat and egg is easy.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 22, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> This question is not about Sikhism, but about the Indian mentality.
> 
> In the West vegetarians (not vegans), tend to eat eggs.
> 
> ...


 

I have often questioned the exact same question many times.
It only came to my attention whilst talking with gora vegeterians who have far more knowledge of what is and isn't classified.

You would be surprised to learn that most of the indians don't know that these eggs are NOT gonna be chicks or are simply,- not fertilised.
They actually view it as an 'embryo'- Full stop-, and that is where they are entirely wrong!!!!

The other pointI normally hear is the 'cow is sacred'- this is typical hindu talk of the cow being like a mother in supplying you milk because as a baby you drank your mother's breast milk (although many are keen on formula nowadays) and then you drink from mother cow, yes mother cow, which is why hindus don't eat the beef either!!!! -- This is another crazy and twisted reason. If you are NOT being ritualistic about a cow, then what are you being ?- Nothing in line with sikhism !!

In fact every time I hear it, I order a 14oz sirloin steak to enjoy !!!!


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## Randip Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

In my mind this for me sums up some of the weird things we do on the Indian subcontinent. Goray can see the hypocrasy yet we can't. Maybe Baba Nanak saw this hypocrasy hence Maas Maas Mooraakh Jhagray? I don't know but my vegan friend has a point.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I have been thinking about it. I don't have eggs, but take milk products. It is like a diet plan I comply with. Obviously there is no feeling of eggs being impure and milk being holy (cow!). I think I once saw some eggs falling off a nest, and I felt sort of weird thing of a mother bird getting separated from would be youngling. And I have seen how some cows are treated, and depriving a calf of the milk is not the right thing to do either. I am not ready yet to give up milk, for that would create problems. Avoiding meat and egg is easy.



Some interesting points there to do with how people feel about certain things.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

kds1980 said:


> Influence of Hinduism ,which consider milk as sacred  but eggs as untouchable food




Is it Hinduism or Vaishnavism, or something else completely different?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Is it Hinduism or Vaishnavism, or something else completely different?




probably a mixture of many...after all hinduism has 33 Kror devtas..and then there is jainism, vaishnavism whatever..


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## Randip Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> probably a mixture of many...after all hinduism has 33 Kror devtas..and then there is jainism, vaishnavism whatever..



Surely Indian Vegetarians should realise that they are propogating hypocrasy.

They should either think of all becoming Vegans or Vegetarians in the Western sense. 

-Ovo-lactose has rationale
-Veganism has rationale
-Lacto Vegetarianism has no rationale whatso ever.


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## jasbirkaleka (Jun 25, 2012)

Rigveda has numerous instances of animal sacrifice.

Swami Dayanand, in 1875 addition of Satyarth Parkash has advocated that,
'flesh should be used for performing havan morning and evening".(page45)
"it is lawful to kill a sterile cow and eat it"(page302)

Charak Samriti (pages 86-87) prescribed flesh of cow as a cure for various ailments such as
irregular fever,consumption, emaciation etc and cow fat for rheumatism.

Manusmriti does not prohibit the consumption of beef.

Kalidas, in one of his plays, wants guests to be served tender calf meat. :redturban:


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## Randip Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Rigveda has numerous instances of animal sacrifice.
> 
> Swami Dayanand, in 1875 addition of Satyarth Parkash has advocated that,
> 'flesh should be used for performing havan morning and evening".(page45)
> ...



Jasbir Kaleka ji, I don't this the debate is so much about meat but about defining vegetarianism.

The Indian Vegetarian thinks eating eggs is bad yet drinking milk is OK? In the 21st century bioligy tells us that an egg can never become a life form. It is in effect part of a hens cycle. It is a waste product.

Milk however, is meant for the calf yet we as men steal it. The process by which milk is made is ineffect through cow's blood.

One could argue there is more life in milk than in eggs.

Why this hypocrasy. I would lover to hear a rationale from a lacto-vegetarian?


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## kds1980 (Jun 26, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Is it Hinduism or Vaishnavism, or something else completely different?



It is very difficult for humans to give up food which is deeply rooted in their culture.After the the hindu's adopted vegetarian diet the meat and egg dishes got practically extinct from mainland India.Milk and milk dishes were used for religous
ceremonies as well as to prepare tasty dishes.Giving up milk could mean for an Indian to give up large part of his/her diet and renounce tasty dishes.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 26, 2012)

kds1980 said:


> It is very difficult for humans to give up food which is deeply rooted in their culture.After the the hindu's adopted vegetarian diet the meat and egg dishes got practically extinct from mainland India.Milk and milk dishes were used for religous
> ceremonies as well as to prepare tasty dishes.Giving up milk could mean for an Indian to give up large part of his/her diet and renounce tasty dishes.




Indeed you are correct.

One argument I could possibly accept is the idea that people do not wish to eat flesh in a certain form i.e. solid. This despite milk being liquified flesh.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 26, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Indeed you are correct.
> 
> One argument I could possibly accept is the idea that people do not wish to eat flesh in a certain form i.e. solid. This despite milk being liquified flesh.



I think its simply "prejudice"..look at how GROSS a normal person would feel when passing through a typical Meat Market in say..Cambodia...there are all sorts of wild life, insects, creatures one has never even seen before..laid out as "food"...people buying {censored}roaches and crunching on them like peanuts..or drinking live cobra blood while the snake is being skinned alive..etc etc..
Just yesterday i saw a hilarious ad for Aircel on sat..a diner ordered a dish just by pointing at the menu..and later wanted to conform what he was eating was chicken..so he called the waiter and flapped his arms..(Meaning IS THIS Chicken ?)..but the waiter shook his head and said Woof Woof ..(meaning its dog meat)..and the Catch Phrase..You get what you READ !!

So a lot of Indians/plus a lot others too... have been brainwashed to accept liquified flesh as Good and healthy and HOLY..while the bloo.dy type prepared by Sadhna the Butcher is Gross.japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Randip Singh (Jun 28, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I think its simply "prejudice"..look at how GROSS a normal person would feel when passing through a typical Meat Market in say..Cambodia...there are all sorts of wild life, insects, creatures one has never even seen before..laid out as "food"...people buying {censored}roaches and crunching on them like peanuts..or drinking live cobra blood while the snake is being skinned alive..etc etc..
> Just yesterday i saw a hilarious ad for Aircel on sat..a diner ordered a dish just by pointing at the menu..and later wanted to conform what he was eating was chicken..so he called the waiter and flapped his arms..(Meaning IS THIS Chicken ?)..but the waiter shook his head and said Woof Woof ..(meaning its dog meat)..and the Catch Phrase..You get what you READ !!
> 
> So a lot of Indians/plus a lot others too... have been brainwashed to accept liquified flesh as Good and healthy and HOLY..while the bloo.dy type prepared by Sadhna the Butcher is Gross.japposatnamwaheguru:


 
A brilliant point. So it's all relative to what that person findss aceptable? This sounds like Nanakian philosophy?


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## Taranjeet singh (Jun 30, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> This question is not about Sikhism, but about the Indian mentality.
> 
> In the West vegetarians (not vegans), tend to eat eggs.
> 
> ...



Let us look at few facts before you arrive at some conclusion. 

India is not a rich country.The per capita income of Indians is about 3 Dollar. India might have been ranked as world's 11 the economy in terms of GDP but per capita GDP would be would be dismal. India might have been termed as developing economy but it shall take time before it can be considered as a force to be reckoned with. Geography and history has not been kind enough to it.Lots of resources are wasted on keeping its neighbours in appropriate place.It all costs money at the cost of development.

India being thickly populated by Hindus has been considered as vegetarian society. There is a cultural heritage to not to consume eggs on account of fact that eggs are considered as '_excereta_' of hen as it is thrown out of excretory hole of the same. It is considered as unholy by many. No one can change this mentality. Secondly, eggs cost these days about One Dollar a dozen and price of some cheap pulses is about the same or little higher. Eggs may serve as a single meal of a middle class family while 1 kg of pulse may be enough for four of five servings. The reason is thus twin fold , the sheer economics coupled with cultural heritage of majority of Indians. Things are changing though. However, I find nothing sarcastic though in the proposition stated above.

A misconception is to be removed in regard to whether milk is a liquefied meat.It is not so. Liquefied milk is a different concept. Liquefied meat is a form of meat.[refer wiKipedia].Milk is different altogether. It is a common knowledge that milk is processed in the udders of cow or mammary glands of the mother. But just because it is produced from blood it does not mean that milk is a blood. A child sucks milk from mother's breast without killing her. The claim that while consuming milk one is consuming blood has no validity either scientific or otherwise.It is a notion that has no scientific basis

Coming to second point as to why milk is being consumed; It is a source of cheap nourishment even for the lower middle class family who is not bothered about microbes or other living organism that it may contain. It is the way the nature exists. and we respect Nature. Milk is considered Holy and that is why Harmandar sahib, where Sri Guru Granth saheb is to be installed daily is washed and cleaned by diluted milk.



There is no scope of further debate unless one wants to enter into for the sake of it.

E & .O.E


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 30, 2012)

*"""""<<<>Milk has been considered as holy and it is offered to Gods. Bhagat Namdev ji..." Doodh pee-o Gobinday raa-e. Doodh pee-o Mayro man Patee-a**[ang 1163]

In this verse Bhagat Nam dev ji prays to God to take milk.Listening to  the prayer, God Almighty appeared in person and drank the milk and  Bhagat ji happily walked to his home. Can anyone imaging the Milk being  replaced by Blood? Could Namdev ji have offered glass of blood to to God  instead of milk? Something to ponder.<<<<<<  In this Verse Bhagat namdev Ji says..I have "milked" the Snow-White COW...placing its milk in a GOLDEN VESSEL, and Water in another vessel..and offered it up to HIM..

In another verse Bhagat Namdev Says..I have used the GOLDEN NEEDLE, threaded with the SILVER thread and SEWED  together MY HEART with HIM )

Its very clear and Transparent that Bhagat Namdev Ji is USING METAPHORS and not REAL GOLDEN VESSELS and Silver Threads and really SEWING up his Mann/Mind/heart !! To take the verses LITERALLY as "MILK form a Cow put in a vessel and offered t Him and He actually DRANK it and showed His happiness" is ??? The Golden VEssel is Namdev's Heart/mind/mann...and the Holy MILK within is the MILK/AMRIT of NAAM...and that is what makes HIM GLAD !!! ( and remember the SGGS is a LIVING PRACTICAL TOOLBOX with Practical TOOLS we all can use and this "experience that Namdev Ji had with HIM is NOT a One-off thing that happened 700 years ago..IT CAN and DOES HAPPEN DAILY anywhere a Genuine BHAGAT SIKH like You and ME...OFFERS the Milk of Amrit NAAM to HIM on a Silver Platter (another Common Metaphor and there is no need to go and buy a real Silver Platter esp with the SOARING SILVER PRICES TODAY which "poor" Indian esp a BHAGAT NAMDEV TYPE can afford to buy GOLD vessels, Gold Needles, Silver Threads and sew Hearts and Minds ??? SGGS is a PRACTICAL TEACHER..so lets be PRACTICAL guys....!! Born with a Silver SPOON in the mouth type of Bhagat possibly could have done all these but then it has already been ESTABLISHED that INDIANS are Really DIRT POOR  then and Now ).....People - HE accepts a "HEART OF GOLD....filled to the BRIM with the Naam Amrit MILK of LOVE..and then HE "Smiles and SETTLES DOWN - "goes Home" RIGHT INSIDE OF YOU !! where his HOME really IS.  That is the actual and real Meaning of the Bhagat namdev Verses on Page 1163. No cows, no gold vessels, no silver water vessels, no gold needles, no silver threads..NOTHING of the Sort....and certainly no "milk drinking ganesh.thakur/god etc"...SGGS is a PRACTICAL MANUAL with Practical TOOLS we ALL Can and MUST USE daily.
*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 30, 2012)

What an Indian says about Fellow Indians....90% of Indians still beleive in Astrology.numerology/stars/planets/ bad luck/good luck/ wont do certain things on certain days, etc etc etc...even Judges wont hear cases on "bad days"/....

http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.aspx?view=main&mview=Jul&dview=01&pview=6


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## Luckysingh (Jun 30, 2012)

Precisely Gyani Ji, the milk in reference is not the dairy milk we drink!!

These metaphors are applied wrongly very easily in the incorrect manner.

The milk is ambrosial 'amrit', the golden vessel is the mind or the physical human body. 
- cleanse and purify the mind with the amrit of naam!!!

We CANNOT simply take ALL these metaphors literally. 
I notice  in many places the mention of 'jo rat piche or rat pindha' this 'rat' is blood and the 'pivhe or pindha' is the drinker or sucker. 
To suck or drink someones blood, blood thirsty beings..etc...
-This is NO reference to just 'Vampires' who are labelled as blood suckers, but this refers to stealing some one's hard earned labour, someone who like a slave is made to work and sweat for others...etc...etc..

We have to be careful with such metaphors and terms. Sometimes, they don't become apparent immediately, but we should look carefully to see if we sense or feel an essence or not- this can normally guide us in the correct direction.


Waheguru


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 30, 2012)

The MAIN REASON behind these Literal meaning proliferation is the Totally uneducated Saadhs-babas of deras who sing such ONE LINERS with such Gusto and dholkis chhennehs     ( Indian cymbals)banging hard so the Sangats MINDS become closed due to NOISE POLLUTION...and the excessive noise drugs the ears closed...
So a KACHA babas like Dhadriwallh will belt out a single liner..Katoreh vich paaliah dudh bhagat namdev neh..tur piyah lekeh soneh dee katoree...boloh ji snagato..waheguru....which is why KACHI BANI takes precedence over genuine GURBANI when these half baked sants and babas take the stage to do parchaar....all take it as Gospel truth spoken by a *"brahmgyani*" supposedly all knowing about the BRAHM but who deoesnt even know whats behind his back as GURU NANAK JI showed at hardwaar !!:singhsippingcoffee:


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## Randip Singh (Jul 1, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Let us look at few facts before you arrive at some conclusion.
> 
> India is not a rich country.The per capita income of Indians is about 3 Dollar. India might have been ranked as world's 11 the economy in terms of GDP but per capita GDP would be would be dismal. India might have been termed as developing economy but it shall take time before it can be considered as a force to be reckoned with. Geography and history has not been kind enough to it.Lots of resources are wasted on keeping its neighbours in appropriate place.It all costs money at the cost of development.



This comment is irrelevant to the debate because it does not stop people from keeping their own chickens. Many of my relatives do in Punjab.

...and historically in a largely agarian society this is irrelevant. The cost of keeping a cow far out wighs the cost of keeping a chicken yet people keep cows.



Taranjeet singh said:


> India being thickly populated by Hindus has been considered as vegetarian society. There is a cultural heritage to not to consume eggs on account of fact that eggs are considered as '_excereta_' of hen as it is thrown out of excretory hole of the same. It is considered as unholy by many. No one can change this mentality. Secondly, eggs cost these days about One Dollar a dozen and price of some cheap pulses is about the same or little higher. Eggs may serve as a single meal of a middle class family while 1 kg of pulse may be enough for four of five servings. The reason is thus twin fold , the sheer economics coupled with cultural heritage of majority of Indians. Things are changing though. However, I find nothing sarcastic though in the proposition stated above.



Actually what do you mean by vegetarian? Lacto vegetarian? Ovo-lacto? India 31% of people are lacto-vegetarians:

http://hindu.com/2006/08/14/stories/2006081403771200.htm

So vegetarians in India are a minority, so how is it a vegetarian society? In anycase this is outside the debate.

Biologically this is an incorrect proposition and shows the gnorance of Indian society. Milk too can be biologically seen as excreta, i.e. liquified flesh in biological terms.

Again economically, it is far cheaper to keep a chicken than a cow, and the nutritional value of one egg compared to the similar pulse is far higher.



Taranjeet singh said:


> A misconception is to be removed in regard to whether milk is a liquefied meat.It is not so. Liquefied milk is a different concept. Liquefied meat is a form of meat.[refer wiKipedia].Milk is different altogether. It is a common knowledge that milk is processed in the udders of cow or mammary glands of the mother. But just because it is produced from blood it does not mean that milk is a blood. A child sucks milk from mother's breast without killing her. The claim that while consuming milk one is consuming blood has no validity either scientific or otherwise.It is a notion that has no scientific basis



No offence but you do not understand basic bioligy of how milk is created. THIS is the very reeason why vegans don't drink milk, but opt for Soya milk. Here is the biological process.

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/dangers-of-cows-milk/

In the UK, even 12 year old children know this. To bad so many kids in India are in denial about this basic fact.  



Taranjeet singh said:


> Coming to second point as to why milk is being consumed; It is a source of cheap nourishment even for the lower middle class family who is not bothered about microbes or other living organism that it may contain. It is the way the nature exists. and we respect Nature. Milk is considered Holy and that is why Harmandar sahib, where Sri Guru Granth saheb is to be installed daily is washed and cleaned by diluted milk.



I've had to delete your quotes from Guru Granth Sahib ji because you've quoted one liners and in this respect the meaning is twisted....and we are not talking about Sikhism.

If milk is holy then why is it poured over Shivalingum in India? Does this mean milk represents Semen? Does this mean Semen is holy as well?



Taranjeet singh said:


> There is no scope of further debate unless one wants to enter into for the sake of it.
> 
> E & .O.E



Sorry you can't do that here. If you wish to make a point be preparedto be challenged


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## Taranjeet singh (Jul 1, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> *"""""<<<>Milk has been considered as holy and it is offered to Gods. Bhagat Namdev ji..." Doodh pee-o Gobinday raa-e. Doodh pee-o Mayro man Patee-a[ang 1163]
> *


*

Respected Gyani ji,

After going thru. your above post it appears you have quoted Sahib singh almost verbatim. But there are other commentaries available that one should also read to widen the horizon.Kindly refer Faridkotwalaa Teeka pages 3717-3718.

I agree with you that sometimes it is good to consider the metaphors if need be. However, in case plain meaning serves the purpose, in the present context milk being treated as worthy of consumption, one may take the meaning literally when we are not taking 'shabd-Veechar'. Even your comments does not show that  milk is not worthy of human consumption or is impure

Yes, there is nothing wrong if God has blessed some one with a silver spoon. It is His choice. Your comments are again out of context and out of place. You also know this very well. I am no one to tell you; I can only make a request that One should have control over that one writes as something may pinch the one to whom it is addressed.  

Regarding Bhagat Namdev following is theextract that I have taken from non controversial source:




			Namdev showed little interest in the family profession. Even as a child his devotion to Lord Vitthal was extraordinary - his sole occupation was to spend day and night in devotion to Vithoba. His devotion was so sincere that sometimes he would consider Vithoba to be his dearest brother or his play mate. According to a legend, when Namdev was five years old, his mother once gave him some food offerings for Vithoba and asked him to give it to Vithoba in the Pandharpur temple. Namdev took the offerings and placed it before Vithoba's idol in the temple, asking Vithoba to accept the offerings. When he saw that his request was not being met, he told Vithoba that he would kill himself if Vithoba continued to ignore the offerings. Vithoba then appeared before him and ate the offerings in response to the utter devotion of young Namdev.
		
Click to expand...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namdev

2.




			One day when Bhagat Namdev Ji's father was absent, Bhagat Namdev Ji took the daily offering of the family to the temple. It consisted of milk, which he had just milked from his cow. He thought that the God would freely partake of the offering on which he had lavished so much care.
The stony idol, however, would not do so. Upon this Bhagat Namdev began to cry, he threw himself down at the God's feet and uttered passionate supplications. In due time the god relented and accepted the boy's offering. He celebrated the event in the following hymn in the Bhairo measure on ang 1163 of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.
		
Click to expand...


ਦੂਧ੝ ਕਟੋਰੈ ਗਡਵੈ ਪਾਨੀ ॥ ਕਪਲ ਗਾਇ ਨਾਮੈ ਦ੝ਹਿ ਆਨੀ ॥1॥
dhoodhh kattorai gaddavai paanee || kapal gaae naamai dhuhi aanee ||1||
Naam Dev milked the brown cow, and brought a cup of milk and a jug of water to his family god. ||1||
ਦੂਧ੝ ਪੀਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇ ਰਾਇ ॥
dhoodhh peeo gobi(n)dhae raae ||
"Please drink this milk, O my Sovereign Lord God.
ਦੂਧ੝ ਪੀਉ ਮੇਰੋ ਮਨ੝ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
dhoodhh peeo maero man patheeaae ||
Drink this milk and my mind will be happy.
ਨਾਹੀ ਤ ਘਰ ਕੋ ਬਾਪ੝ ਰਿਸਾਇ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
naahee th ghar ko baap risaae ||1|| rehaao ||
Otherwise, my father will be angry with me.""||1||Pause||
ਸ੝ੋਇਨ ਕਟੋਰੀ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ ਭਰੀ ॥
suoein kattoree a(n)mrith bharee ||
Taking the golden cup, Naam Dayv filled it with the ambrosial milk,
ਲੈ ਨਾਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੀ ॥2॥
lai naamai har aagai dhharee ||2||
and placed it before the Lord. ||2||
ਝਕ੝ ਭਗਤ੝ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਬਸੈ ॥ ਨਾਮੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਰਾਇਨ੝ ਹਸੈ ॥3॥
eaek bhagath maerae hiradhae basai || naamae dhaekh naraaein hasai ||3||
The Lord looked upon Naam Dayv and smiled. ""This one devotee abides within my heart.""||3||
ਦੂਧ੝ ਪੀਆਇ ਭਗਤ੝ ਘਰਿ ਗਇਆ ॥
dhoodhh peeaae bhagath ghar gaeiaa ||
The Lord drank the milk, and the devotee returned home.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhagat_Namdev_Ji_And_The_Offering

In such circumstances , in my humble opinion, individual is left with choices and is not always guided by your advice when the same is not available at the time of authoring post. I wish you were present when I was authoring the post. Since that was not the case I relied on simple translation that fitted in the point that is being debated.*


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## Taranjeet singh (Jul 1, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> This comment is irrelevant to the debate because it does not stop people from keeping their own chickens. Many of my relatives do in Punjab....and historically in a largely agarian society this is irrelevant. The cost of keeping a cow far out wighs the cost of keeping a chicken yet people keep cows.
> It is the most relevant point of the entire discussion. In fact,the crux.
> Incidentally, Your relatives are not present to debate the issue; it is better that you quote something that may prove that my comments are not relevant. For you these may be so as you have to defend your stand
> Actually what do you mean by vegetarian? Lacto vegetarian? Ovo-lacto? India 31% of people are lacto-vegetarians:
> ...



Yes, when debate turns out to be an argument where one is not able to see the others point of view it should be the end of it for some, and I am one of them.

Hope I have answered you. In case you are not satisfied please post again in view of that has been posted so that you can be properly attended to your satisfaction. I have not touched part of your comments that were seemingly out of context and were not meant to advance the debate. Also please debate that is useful for all of us and not for individual who has started the thread. You comments like semen being thrown on deities of Hindus seemed arrogant. 
I am at liberty to reply to those that are worthy of being attended to. Also kindly be precise.

Kindly note that no line of Gurbani was twisted as claimed in your post. Kindly provide the evidence of twisting so that others members following this debate can also know as to who is twisting things for a very short term advantage that may be ultimately inconsequential.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 1, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Yes, when debate turns out to be an argument where one is not able to see the others point of view it should be the end of it for some, and I am one of them.



It's not an argument. I have pointed out some scientific fct for you. Cow's milk is filtered blood. Blood is basically flesh in a liquified form.



Taranjeet singh said:


> Hope I have answered you. In case you are not satisfied please post again in view of that has been posted so that you can be properly attended to your satisfaction. I have not touched part of your comments that were seemingly out of context and were not meant to advance the debate. Also please debate that is useful for all of us and not for individual who has started the thread. You comments like semen being thrown on deities of Hindus seemed arrogant.
> I am at liberty to reply to those that are worthy of being attended to. Also kindly be precise.



You know the rules here i.e. not to use one liners from Bani. I've warned you several times about this, yet you have ignored it.

On the Hindu point, the majority of Indiia is Hindu, and this is how they use milk. Shivalingum is a phallus and the milk is supposed represent semen. I was in effect demonstarting how ridiculous the debate can get if you start to bring religion into it.



Taranjeet singh said:


> Kindly note that no line of Gurbani was twisted as claimed in your post. Kindly provide the evidence of twisting so that others members following this debate can also know as to who is twisting things for a very short term advantage that may be ultimately inconsequential.



Firstly the debate is about Indians the majority of whom are Hindu.
Secondly the use of bani one liners is strictly monitored on this forum.
Thirdly you have been warned about this before.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 1, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> This comment is irrelevant to the debate because it does not stop people  from keeping their own chickens. Many of my relatives do in  Punjab....and historically in a largely agarian society this is  irrelevant. The cost of keeping a cow far out wighs the cost of keeping a  chicken yet people keep cows.
> It is the most relevant point of the entire discussion. In fact,the crux.
> Incidentally, Your relatives are not present to debate the issue; it is  better that you quote something that may prove that my comments are not  relevant. For you these may be so as you have to defend your stand



Again irrelevant. Challenge the point. You make one about economics. It has NO validity.

Is it more expensive to keep a cow or a chicken?



Taranjeet singh said:


> Actually what do you mean by vegetarian? Lacto vegetarian? Ovo-lacto? India 31% of people are lacto-vegetarians:
> http://hindu.com/2006/08/14/stories/2006081403771200.htm
> So vegetarians in India are a minority, so how is it a vegetarian society? In anycase this is outside the debate.
> If it is out of debate why quote or give reference.  Kindly be precise and to the point so that some conclusion can be  arrived at.



I've given a refrence? Can you not acces links?

http://hindu.com/2006/08/14/stories/2006081403771200.htm

:singhsippingcoffee:




Taranjeet singh said:


> Biologically this is an incorrect proposition and shows the gnorance of  Indian society. Milk too can be biologically seen as excreta, i.e.  liquified flesh in biological terms.
> How?Kindly explain. In that case mother's milk would also be excreta.



Sorry misread excreta as excreted. Milk, eggs, faeces are all excrereted. Eggs are not faeces.



Taranjeet singh said:


> Again economically, it is far cheaper to keep a chicken than a cow, and  the nutritional value of one egg compared to the similar pulse is far  higher.
> It may be so if Indians have liking of eggs and they do not consider it as an 'excreta'?



Is it cheaper to keep a chicken or a cow? Again misread as excreted.




Taranjeet singh said:


> No offence but you do not understand basic bioligy of how milk is  created. THIS is the very reeason why vegans don't drink milk, but opt  for Soya milk. Here is the biological process.
> No offence was meant and there is nothing offensive .It is your perception



If you don't understand the basic biology of how milk is made in the biological process admit it. 

http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/f/f1/How_Cows_Make_Milk.pdf 



Taranjeet singh said:


> I am a vegan I do not take soya milk. I take soya  beans [vegetable] a lot and calcium capsules as a supplement. My wife  who is a Doctor recommends this and follow this



def Vegan:

http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/g/Vegan.htm
_
*Veganism *is a type of vegetarian diet that excludes meat, eggs, *dairy products *and all other animal-derived ingredients. Many vegans also do not eat  foods that are processed using animal products, such as refined white  sugar and some wines.  Most vegans also avoid the use of all products tested on animals, as  well as animal-derived non-food products, such as leather, fur and wool.
*Vegan* refers to either a person who follows this way of eating, or to the diet itself._

*If you take milk you cannot be a vegan.* *You are a lacto-vegetarian.*



Taranjeet singh said:


> In the UK, even 12 year old children know this. To bad so many kids in India are in denial about this basic fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here is a graphic reresentation of how milk is made in a cow. Should be simple enough to understand:


http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/f/f1/How_Cows_Make_Milk.pdf




Taranjeet singh said:


> Let us not forget India was under British rule for centuries and prior  to this Mugals ruled for quite some time. Indian education system was  formulated by Lord Maculy and that was oriented to produce babus. India  is not even 70 years old from that angle.It will take some time for  education and awareness.



Look Taranjeet, my point was a bit tonge and cheek. Every India 12 year old knows the process of how milk is made.......but what I am saying is Indian lacto-vegetarians seem to be in denial.



Taranjeet singh said:


> I've had to delete your quotes from Guru Granth Sahib ji because you've  quoted one liners and in this respect the meaning is twisted....and we  are not talking about Sikhism.
> The quote was given that sikhs, who are also human  beings and part of Indian society also believe that Milk is pure and  worthy of human consumption even if it contains microbes or lower  organisms. They are not sentient. Are they so.?
> Please give your valuable opinion.



No those quotes do not mean that and I'm not debating that. They are metaphors.

in Vaaran Bhai Gurdas he praises goat meat...will you see that as holy?

Vaar 23 Pauri 13 of 21 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas". SearchGurbani. 2007_The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion._
_Goat is humble and hence it is respected everywhere._
_On occasions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat is accepted._
_Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made._
_From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord._
_Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord, is sung._
_In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru._​


Taranjeet singh said:


> If milk is holy then why is it poured over Shivalingum in India? Does  this mean milk represents Semen? Does this mean Semen is holy as well?
> 
> Your question is not clear. Milk is pure that is why it is offered to dieties. What  has semen to do with it. Kindly put the things in perspective for  better appreciation in regard to Human semen being thrown over Hindu  Dieties.



It's common in many faiths and again its a bit tongue and cheek. Milk is supposed to represent semen on the shivalingum. this practice has been spread by the ignorant to other dieties. they don't understand the origin of it.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/cut/message/1416


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## Randip Singh (Jul 1, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> ਦੂਧ੝ ਕਟੋਰੈ ਗਡਵੈ ਪਾਨੀ ॥ ਕਪਲ ਗਾਇ ਨਾਮੈ ਦ੝ਹਿ ਆਨੀ ॥1॥
> dhoodhh kattorai gaddavai paanee || kapal gaae naamai dhuhi aanee ||1||
> Naam Dev milked the brown cow, and brought a cup of milk and a jug of water to his family god. ||1||
> ਦੂਧ੝ ਪੀਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇ ਰਾਇ ॥
> ...




*Here is the entire shabad page 1163 Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji:*

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਰੇ  ਜਿਹਬਾ  ਕਰਉ  ਸਤ  ਖੰਡ  ॥ 
रे जिहबा करउ सत खंड ॥ 
Re jihbā kara▫o saṯ kẖand. 
O my tongue, I will cut you into a hundred pieces, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜਾਮਿ  ਨ  ਉਚਰਸਿ  ਸ੍ਰੀ  ਗੋਬਿੰਦ  ॥੧॥ 
जामि न उचरसि स्री गोबिंद ॥१॥ 
Jām na ucẖras sarī gobinḏ. ||1|| 
if you do not chant the Name of the Lord. ||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਰੰਗੀ  ਲੇ  ਜਿਹਬਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੈ  ਨਾਇ  ॥ 
रंगी ले जिहबा हरि कै नाइ ॥ 
Rangī le jihbā har kai nā▫e. 
O my tongue, be imbued with the Lord's Name. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਸੁਰੰਗ  ਰੰਗੀਲੇ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਧਿਆਇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
सुरंग रंगीले हरि हरि धिआइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Surang rangīle har har ḏẖi▫ā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Meditate on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, and imbue yourself with this most excellent color. ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਮਿਥਿਆ  ਜਿਹਬਾ  ਅਵਰੇਂ  ਕਾਮ  ॥ 
मिथिआ जिहबा अवरें काम ॥ 
Mithi▫ā jihbā avreŉ kām. 
O my tongue, other occupations are false. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਿਰਬਾਣ  ਪਦੁ  ਇਕੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੋ  ਨਾਮੁ  ॥੨॥ 
निरबाण पदु इकु हरि को नामु ॥२॥ 
Nirbāṇ paḏ ik har ko nām. ||2|| 
The state of Nirvaanaa comes only through the Lord's Name. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਅਸੰਖ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਅਨ  ਪੂਜਾ  ਕਰੀ  ॥ 
असंख कोटि अन पूजा करी ॥ 
Asaŉkẖ kot an pūjā karī. 
The performance of countless millions of other devotions 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਏਕ  ਨ  ਪੂਜਸਿ  ਨਾਮੈ  ਹਰੀ  ॥੩॥ 
एक न पूजसि नामै हरी ॥३॥ 
Ėk na pūjas nāmai harī. ||3|| 
is not equal to even one devotion to the Name of the Lord. ||3|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ  ਨਾਮਦੇਉ  ਇਹੁ  ਕਰਣਾ  ॥ 
प्रणवै नामदेउ इहु करणा ॥ 
Paraṇvai nāmḏe▫o ih karṇā. 
Prays Naam Dayv, this is my occupation. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਅਨੰਤ  ਰੂਪ  ਤੇਰੇ  ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ  ॥੪॥੧॥ 
अनंत रूप तेरे नाराइणा ॥४॥१॥ 
Ananṯ rūp ṯere nārā▫iṇā. ||4||1|| 
O Lord, Your Forms are endless. ||4||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪਰ  ਧਨ  ਪਰ  ਦਾਰਾ  ਪਰਹਰੀ  ॥ 
पर धन पर दारा परहरी ॥ 
Par ḏẖan par ḏārā parharī. 
One who stays away from others' wealth and others' spouses- 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਤਾ  ਕੈ  ਨਿਕਟਿ  ਬਸੈ  ਨਰਹਰੀ  ॥੧॥ 
ता कै निकटि बसै नरहरी ॥१॥ 
Ŧā kai nikat basai narharī. ||1|| 
the Lord abides near that person. ||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜੋ  ਨ  ਭਜੰਤੇ  ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ  ॥ 
जो न भजंते नाराइणा ॥ 
Jo na bẖajanṯe nārā▫iṇā. 
Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord- 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਤਿਨ  ਕਾ  ਮੈ  ਨ  ਕਰਉ  ਦਰਸਨਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
तिन का मै न करउ दरसना ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ŧin kā mai na kara▫o ḏarsanā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
I do not even want to see them. ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜਿਨ  ਕੈ  ਭੀਤਰਿ  ਹੈ  ਅੰਤਰਾ  ॥ 
जिन कै भीतरि है अंतरा ॥ 
Jin kai bẖīṯar hai anṯrā. 
Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜੈਸੇ  ਪਸੁ  ਤੈਸੇ  ਓਇ  ਨਰਾ  ॥੨॥ 
जैसे पसु तैसे ओइ नरा ॥२॥ 
Jaise pas ṯaise o▫e narā. ||2|| 
are nothing more than beasts. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ  ਨਾਮਦੇਉ  ਨਾਕਹਿ  ਬਿਨਾ  ॥ 
प्रणवति नामदेउ नाकहि बिना ॥ 
Paraṇvaṯ nāmḏe▫o nākėh binā. 
Prays Naam Dayv, a man without a nose 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਾ  ਸੋਹੈ  ਬਤੀਸ  ਲਖਨਾ  ॥੩॥੨॥ 
ना सोहै बतीस लखना ॥३॥२॥ 
Nā sohai baṯīs lakẖnā. ||3||2|| 
does not look handsome, even if he has the thirty-two beauty marks. ||3||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#BABAC7"><td>  ਦੂਧੁ  ਕਟੋਰੈ  ਗਡਵੈ  ਪਾਨੀ  ॥ 
दूधु कटोरै गडवै पानी ॥ 
Ḏūḏẖ katorai gadvai pānī. 
A cup of milk and a jug of water is brought to family god, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਪਲ  ਗਾਇ  ਨਾਮੈ  ਦੁਹਿ  ਆਨੀ  ॥੧॥ 
कपल गाइ नामै दुहि आनी ॥१॥ 
Kapal gā▫e nāmai ḏuhi ānī. ||1|| 
by Naam Dayv, after milking the brown cow. ||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦੂਧੁ  ਪੀਉ  ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇ  ਰਾਇ  ॥ 
दूधु पीउ गोबिंदे राइ ॥ 
Ḏūḏẖ pī▫o gobinḏe rā▫e. 
Please drink this milk, O my Sovereign Lord God. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦੂਧੁ  ਪੀਉ  ਮੇਰੋ  ਮਨੁ  ਪਤੀਆਇ  ॥ 
दूधु पीउ मेरो मनु पतीआइ ॥ 
Ḏūḏẖ pī▫o mero man paṯī▫ā▫e. 
Drink this milk and my mind will be happy. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਾਹੀ  ਤ  ਘਰ  ਕੋ  ਬਾਪੁ  ਰਿਸਾਇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
नाही त घर को बापु रिसाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Nāhī ṯa gẖar ko bāp risā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Otherwise, my father will be angry with me."||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਸਇਨ  ਕਟੋਰੀ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਭਰੀ  ॥ 
सोइन कटोरी अम्रित भरी ॥ 
So▫in katorī amriṯ bẖarī. 
Taking the golden cup, Naam Dayv filled it with the ambrosial milk, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਲੈ  ਨਾਮੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਆਗੈ  ਧਰੀ  ॥੨॥ 
लै नामै हरि आगै धरी ॥२॥ 
Lai nāmai har āgai ḏẖarī. ||2|| 
and placed it before the Lord. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਏਕੁ  ਭਗਤੁ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਹਿਰਦੇ  ਬਸੈ  ॥ 
एकु भगतु मेरे हिरदे बसै ॥ 
Ėk bẖagaṯ mere hirḏe basai. 
This one devotee abides within my heart, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਾਮੇ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਨਰਾਇਨੁ  ਹਸੈ  ॥੩॥ 
नामे देखि नराइनु हसै ॥३॥ 
Nāme ḏekẖ narā▫in hasai. ||3|| 
the Lord looked upon Naam Dayv and smiled. ||3|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦੂਧੁ  ਪੀਆਇ  ਭਗਤੁ  ਘਰਿ  ਗਇਆ  ॥ 
दूधु पीआइ भगतु घरि गइआ ॥ 
Ḏūḏẖ pī▫ā▫e bẖagaṯ gẖar ga▫i▫ā. 
The Lord drank the milk, and the devotee returned home. 
</td></tr></tbody></table>
*Anyone who reads can see that this shabad is a metaphor. The milk is a metaphor for doing God's will, and doing service.

When Naam Dev Says:* 
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਜੋ  ਨ  ਭਜੰਤੇ  ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ  ॥ 
जो न भजंते नाराइणा ॥ 
Jo na bẖajanṯe nārā▫iṇā. 
Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord- 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਤਿਨ  ਕਾ  ਮੈ  ਨ  ਕਰਉ  ਦਰਸਨਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
तिन का मै न करउ दरसना ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ŧin kā mai na kara▫o ḏarsanā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
I do not even want to see them. ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜਿਨ  ਕੈ  ਭੀਤਰਿ  ਹੈ  ਅੰਤਰਾ  ॥ 
जिन कै भीतरि है अंतरा ॥ 
Jin kai bẖīṯar hai anṯrā. 
Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜੈਸੇ  ਪਸੁ  ਤੈਸੇ  ਓਇ  ਨਰਾ  ॥੨॥ 
जैसे पसु तैसे ओइ नरा ॥२॥ 
Jaise pas ṯaise o▫e narā. ||2|| 
are nothing more than beasts. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ  ਨਾਮਦੇਉ  ਨਾਕਹਿ  ਬਿਨਾ  ॥ 
प्रणवति नामदेउ नाकहि बिना ॥ 
Paraṇvaṯ nāmḏe▫o nākėh binā. 
Prays Naam Dayv, a man without a nose 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਾ  ਸੋਹੈ  ਬਤੀਸ  ਲਖਨਾ  ॥੩॥੨॥ 
ना सोहै बतीस लखना ॥३॥२॥ 
Nā sohai baṯīs lakẖnā. ||3||2|| 
does not look handsome, even if he has the thirty-two beauty marks. ||3||2|
</td></tr></tbody></table><table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>*He is saying, if you are not doing God will then it doesn't matter how you have hide it, it will still be seen for what it is.

THe MILK is a metaphor. Taranjeet my young frind, the purpose of this site is to study Sikh philosophy i.e. to see deep meanings of shabads and metaphors that the ignorant man cannot see. Please try and understand the metaphors. 3 people (including me can see the metaphors. Surely an intelligent man like you can?*  :singhsippingcoffee:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 2, 2012)

Depending on the FARIDKOTEE TEEKA is like the catholic Church defending the Bible ( Earth is center of the UNIVERSE..the Sun revolves around the earth, the earth is Flat etc etc) against the likes of Galileo Galilee !!

Prof Sahib Singh is the *Galilio Galillee* that proved the Faridkotee teeka writers wrong becasue they WEAR BHAGWA SPECTACLES to look at GURBANI...they see Everything as ORANGE..everything has its base on vedant..purans etc and GURBANI/SGGS as a mere Translation of Vedas !! Faridkotees take every thing as LITERAL...and have absolutley no understanding of Gurbani METAPHORS.

I have an Original 4 copy edition:blueturban::happysingh::redturban::singhsippingcoffee: of the faridkotee steek and studied it very studiously under my late dad...so i know it very well...


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## Kamala (Jul 2, 2012)

The cow is HOLY in India, most people in India buy the milk from people who take the milk out by hand, and NOT machines, meaning the cow is NOT in pain, lekhin jaab murgi andaa banata hai usko BOHOT ZYADA dhok ahti hai, I am vegan in Canada because the milk is not milked by hand, and I don't expect to make a difference if I stop, I just do this to proove I am not a part.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 2, 2012)

Kamala said:


> The cow is HOLY in India, most people in India buy the milk from people who take the milk out by hand, and NOT machines, meaning the cow is NOT in pain, lekhin jaab murgi andaa banata hai usko *BOHOT ZYADA dhok ahti hai,* I am vegan in Canada because the milk is not milked by hand, and I don't expect to make a difference if I stop, I just do this to proove I am not a part.



I agree...

http://www.upc-online.org/chickens/chickensbro.html


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## Kamala (Jul 2, 2012)

Thank you for that link, this is exactly why I am vegan.


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## Luckysingh (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm  a vegan most of the time, except meal times!!!!:singhsippingcoffee::happysingh::happysingh::blueturban::blueturban::singhsippingcoffee:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2012)

in SIKHISM/GURMATT WE ARE TAUGHT TO fight THE torture..the tyranny..the injustices..
we DONT RETREAT/HIDE BEHIND something....or close our eyes...

Hindu sadhus felt that family life hindered their spiritual progress..so they UP AND AWAY..to the Jungles forests high mountain caves...GURU NANAK REJECTED this approach as COWARDLY...He declared a SIKH MUST Marry, be a Householder..be responsible to family society and samaaj pay taxes, build roads, pay for development..educate and be educated..etc etc etc..BE ACTIVELY INVOLVED..instead of shutting down and disappearing into the jungles...

Guur nanak Saw how the FOREIGN HORDES invaded India again and again..looting, burning, raping pillaging..How babar the Mughal came with his Paap ki janjh to loot and plunder...Guru Nanank Ji..STOOD TALL nad was COUNTED...His SIKHS FOUGHT the tyranny, the terror, the injustices...at great cost to their persons...and persevered until success..

IF a SIKH sees a COW being mistreated..its NOT the Gurmatt WAY to.."STOP DRINKING MILK"....its to STOP THE MISTREATMENT...educate the public...make awareness public...

The LINK i provided is to EDUCATE...EMPOWER...and EXPOSE..the Tyranny, the TERROR, the INJUSTICES...being inflicted on our poor friends who cant defend themselves..the SIKH DEFENDS THEM....FIGHTS FOR THEM....BUT not  by saying.."OH OK..I will stop eating chicken...beef..pork...horsemeat..dogmeat..frogs..fish..etc etc..OR if he finds a farmer spraying excessive PESTICIDES on Daal..he says..OH I will STOP EATING DAAL...I wont eat HONEY because the farmers dont treat bees well..etc etc...

BEING VEGAN is the COWARDS WAY OUT..the WAY the SADHUS followed in Guru Times when babar attacked....THIS IS NOT the GURUS WAY....


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2012)

ALMOST all Indian States have Laws banning COW SLAUGHTER....yet almost 39,000 cows were ritually slaughtered on the streets and public roads of Kerala State on a religious Festival in November 2011....isnt it the DUTY of Kerala Indians to STAND UP for the Implementation of this Law ?? why not ?? Simple answer is most Indians follow the SADHU WAY..not the GURMATT WAY the Gurus taught. Following link is just for info purposes..i* DONT* agree with everything the author says/writes...

http://k{censored}vakindia.blogspot.com/


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## Randip Singh (Jul 3, 2012)

Kamala said:


> The cow is HOLY in India, most people in India buy the milk from people who take the milk out by hand, and NOT machines, meaning the cow is NOT in pain, lekhin jaab murgi andaa banata hai usko BOHOT ZYADA dhok ahti hai, I am vegan in Canada because the milk is not milked by hand, and I don't expect to make a difference if I stop, I just do this to proove I am not a part.


 
I don't understand this point at all.

-The milk a cow gives is for a calf not for human consumption, eyt we take the calf away so that we can have milk. Is that not painful for the calf?

-How is a chicken laying an egg (which is part of it's NATURAL) cycle painful? 

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-exactly-do-chickens-lay-eggs.htm

If you are concerned with how they are treated then I suggest buy organic or free range. Same with cow's.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 3, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> BEING VEGAN is the COWARDS WAY OUT..the WAY the SADHUS followed in Guru Times when babar attacked....THIS IS NOT the GURUS WAY....


 
Exactly. My way of dealing with this is buying food from organic sources where I know plants and animals have been treated well.

back to the debate though, I still cannot see logically why Indian Vegetarians drink milk, yet won't eat eggs.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 3, 2012)

I think at this point of time, most of the people have habits and not philosophies. They do something their parents have been doing all their life, and they might change their habits to benefit themselves. We have so many different examples that we don't know what is the rule and what is the exception.


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## Kamala (Jul 3, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> in SIKHISM/GURMATT WE ARE TAUGHT TO fight THE torture..the tyranny..the injustices..
> we DONT RETREAT/HIDE BEHIND something....or close our eyes...
> 
> Hindu sadhus felt that family life hindered their spiritual progress..so they UP AND AWAY..to the Jungles forests high mountain caves...GURU NANAK REJECTED this approach as COWARDLY...He declared a SIKH MUST Marry, be a Householder..be responsible to family society and samaaj pay taxes, build roads, pay for development..educate and be educated..etc etc etc..BE ACTIVELY INVOLVED..instead of shutting down and disappearing into the jungles...
> ...



I don't think you understand what I am trying to say; *I would gladly drink milk in India where we have our own cow and know it is not mistreated*, but what I am trying to say is I wont take it from big companies where you don't know what is really going on and so I don't support it. 



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> ALMOST all Indian States have Laws  banning COW SLAUGHTER....yet almost 39,000 cows were ritually  slaughtered



Almost, haha, almost, you said almost, what if the states that do not ban it are the ones that slaughter them? I don't understand what you are surprised about, if you know it is *not *banned in some areas.


Randip Singh said:


> I don't understand this point at all.
> 
> -The milk a cow gives is for a calf not for human consumption, eyt we  take the calf away so that we can have milk. Is that not painful for the  calf?
> 
> ...



1. I don't remember me taking the calf away from the mother. 
2. When 5 andas comes out of your butt and it is almost as big as your body *please *do tell me how that feels 

I can almost gurantee that you didn't even read the site that Gyani Jarnail ji posted, LOL!


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## Ishna (Jul 3, 2012)

This is what happens to dairy calves in Australia:  http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-happens-to-bobby-calves_87.html

*Randip Singh ji:*
What about the discarded male chicks in the egg industry?  You have to breed chickens to get chickens to lay eggs but per hukam some chicks hatch male and some female - the males are not required by the industry and subsequently destroyed.  *Organic or not.*


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

Life is not good for the chickens. Their beaks are cut down when they are kept close together in the cages. So that they don't poke each other to death.


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## Ishna (Jul 4, 2012)

Or eat each other - chickens do that frequently.

But even if the chickens are treated well - free range, organic fed, etcetc the male chicks are still discarded like junk mail (or is that junk male...)


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

1. An average HEN needs 24-26 HOURS to produce ONE EGG. 99% hens lay just 1 egg daily and SKIP some days (day off ha ha).

2. Cow slaughter Ban is the most stupid piece of law India has..its HINDU RADICAL POWER..not good governance/or secularism....  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/NA06Df05.html

3. A Calf has to be REMOVED OR IT WILL FINISH ALL THE MILK. Just as a woman has just enough to breast feed her child...a COW has just enough to FEED her Baby. NO WAY can someone like Kamala JI claim she NEVER removed the Calf and yet had enough milk..may be a FEW DROPS..ok..BUT def Not enough to fill a BOWL.

4 Its a Known FACT that INDIA has the Worlds largest population of ABANDONED COWS that roam the streets and villages foraging and scavenging for food. What a way to treat your Gaoo mata Ji....*BIGGEST FRAUD on EARTH*. These cows SUFFER painful hunger/cold/accidents with vehicles/injuries/beatings from frustrated  farmers/street hawkers/vendors etc etc... As GURU NANAK ji observed 550 years ago..Brahman Gaoo Ko Kar laveh..GOBAR taran na Jaii..the Brahmin TAXES the COW but thinks the BULL.**** Can save him and his soul !!! (GOBAR is cow Bull.****) Even Today Indians use cow urine and shi.t to Clean/purify/as HOLY !!

Just a month ago  a neighbour who is a hindu bought a new house..in the morning the brahmins brought a cow..who was paraded around the house...made to climb up narrow flights of stairs and PRODDED with a stick UP (hers) in order to FORCE URINE OUT at random Places to PURIFY the House...even my youngest son who is just 3 asked me..daddy why they are hurting the cow to make her urinate ??..uggh isnt that GROSS ?? I said SHUT UP SON..it may hurt our neighbors religious sentiments..just keep quiet and observe..


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

> Just a month ago a neighbour who is a hindu bought a new house..


 
Is there a video recording of the whole event?


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## Ishna (Jul 4, 2012)

I think I'm gonna be sick, then get really, really mad.

Any creature suffering like that at the hands of *sheer idiocy* is a crime.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

and heres another link for kamala Ji (USA NIWASEE) about the REALITY of COWS in HINDU INDIA.....Indians shamelessly MILK the cow for POLITICAL POWER....!!

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2012/02/08/cow-slaughter/

2. Secondly about the ONLY Humans in INDIA... who WILLINGLY SACRIFICED THEIR HUMAN LIVES FOR COWS..were SIKHS of the NAMDHAREE SECT....long long ago...NO HINDU has ever done anything like that...(not willingly but  "Hindu" deaths in RIOTS have occered)..so ONLY SIKHS as usual rose to DEFEND the Gaoo mata of the Hindus.


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## Kamala (Jul 4, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 1. An average HEN needs 24-26 HOURS to produce ONE EGG. 99% hens lay just 1 egg daily and SKIP some days (day off ha ha).
> 
> 2. Cow slaughter Ban is the most stupid piece of law India has..its HINDU RADICAL POWER..not good governance/or secularism....  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/NA06Df05.html
> 
> ...


Last time I remembered our cow in India the baby died, so we didn't technically separate it from the mother  

I also don't remember me abandoning any cows, have you ever seen a gaushala? People take cows in and keep them in there. I respect Sri Erudi Devi (Gau mata) and would feed any cows I see as we are not poor. The cows are roaming around hungry because the people cannot afford to feed them , just like how you can't afford to feed every pigeon or kutha on the streets. 

There are tons of reets in India, I never say I am defending them all. I see you care about your neighbors sentiments, but what about mine? Arent I equally as human?



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> and heres another link for kamala Ji  (USA NIWASEE) about the REALITY of COWS in HINDU INDIA.....Indians  shamelessly MILK the cow for POLITICAL POWER....!!
> 
> http://satyameva-jayate.org/2012/02/08/cow-slaughter/
> 
> 2. Secondly about the ONLY Humans in INDIA... who WILLINGLY SACRIFICED  THEIR HUMAN LIVES FOR COWS..were SIKHS of the NAMDHAREE SECT....long  long ago...NO HINDU has ever done anything like that...(not willingly  but  "Hindu" deaths in RIOTS have occered)..so ONLY SIKHS as usual rose  to DEFEND the Gaoo mata of the Hindus.



I don't see any video. I don't know how you can say the only humans in India, I don't think you made a survey or anything  I know I would die for a cow IF I was face to face with a person going to slaughter; better yet I'd just slaughter the person going to slaughter the cow. 


Also, I find it VERY offensive of you saying I am a coward for being vegan. I don't remember me being chased from meat eating people making me eat meat. I don't think you will ever understand the fact that by NOT eating it gives you SENTIMENTAL VALUE that you do NOT support this. I do NOT support it, thus I am vegan, but if it CHANGED I would stop. I will never understand why people kill animals who love their life as much as us just for food. I do believe this is Kalyug now haha.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

Kamala Ji,

1. Of course I care about your sentiments just as i care about my neighbour's sentiments..I just DONT AGREE. I am deeply offended you made this assumption.

2. we would all love it if you made a survey of Cow Shaeeds...i ma simply quoting HISTORY..never made nay surveys...

3. its a LINK..not a video..

cheer up...keep on doing what you do..japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Kamala (Jul 4, 2012)

Well sorry Gyani Jarnail Singh ji.  I don't see what part you don't agree with.. 

Ha ha, a survey would be too much for me to handle  Sorry, I got mixed up with the video part  I read most of it.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

Kamala said:


> 1. I don't remember me taking the calf away from the mother.



So let me get this right, any cows you have had have not produced milk  after giving birth. 

Now either you do not understand basic bioligy or  you have milk from mutant cows.

The cow produces milk after giving birth only and for feeding its calf. In our farm in Punjab we had several, and we used to have to take the calf away and tie it up so it didn't drink the milk. THAT is how it works. THAT is the cruelty of milk. The calf pines for it mothers milk yet Vashnavites can justify that with hypocrasy.peacesign




Kamala said:


> 2. When 5 andas comes out of your butt and it is almost as big as your body *please *do tell me how that feels



Err no. This post is a bit juvenille. This is aupposed to be an adult debate. If you do not understand basic biolicy, then ask me and I will explain.

The egg comes out of the Chickens uterus, and comes out part of its  cycle. Looks like YOU did not read the site I posted on how eggs are  produced which makes NO reference to chickens feeling pain when they lay  eggs. :singhsippingcoffee: Here is a post from a chicken keeper:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/farmlife/msg1012434027916.html

_The egg laying process is very dramatic!   Here's what my hens do, see if it matches yours:  when one is about to  lay an egg, she will go rather frantically from nesting spot to nesting  spot in the yard, all the while bawking and crying in a fretful tone,  sometimes she'll seem downright frenzied.  Sometimes other hens or the  roo will accompiany her in her search for the Perfect Nesting Spot, and  THEY have to get in on the noisemaking, too.  The hen may also watch  another hen who is laying, sticking her head in the nest box and  cackling her head off at the top of her lungs.  We call this the  'pre-egg cackle', and I think it serves to draw out any predators before  the hen is committed to laying the egg and is stuck on the nest.    When  the hen is FINALLY actually ready to lay, she gets very quiet and  secretive.  She'll choose a nest (usually the same one she used before,  despite all the searching that went on before) and as she sits, will  seem to go into a trance, being quite still.  When the egg is coming out  she will stand up and concentrate hard (Moms who have seen their small  children passing a bowel movement know this look!) and seem to strain a  bit, then out pops the egg!  After this she may stay and mother it for a  few minutes, then will leap from the nest cackling loudly and sometimes  running.  Most of the time she'll go and eat a little food and have a  drink.    
*All the hens treat their egg laying (and everyone else's) as a cause for loud celebration.   I think the noise you are hearing is that rather than screams of pain.* *  Also, for first-time layers, there is that freaked-out, 'what the heck  just happened to me?!' quality to the hens' reaction to laying her  first eggs.*  *L*  They take this more in stride as they mature.  The  only time I'd worry is if you suspect a hen is egg-bound, and then you  need to act very quickly.  It isn't very common in chickens who get a  good diet and proper care though.  The symptoms of an eggbound hen are  fairly marked, if you want to read more on it research the Internet or  click on my 'My Page' link, I've discussed eggbinding there a bit.    
_




Kamala said:


> I can almost gurantee that you didn't even read the site that Gyani Jarnail ji posted, LOL!



Actually I did and I find it reprehensible BUT my answer to that was to buy ORGANIC and FREERANGE. Please look the terms up. I suggest you do that with all the veg you buy as well, to prevent cruelty to animals and the environment.welcomekaur


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## Randip Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

Ishna said:


> This is what happens to dairy calves in Australia:  http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-happens-to-bobby-calves_87.html
> 
> *Randip Singh ji:*
> What about the discarded male chicks in the egg industry?  You have to breed chickens to get chickens to lay eggs but per hukam some chicks hatch male and some female - the males are not required by the industry and subsequently destroyed.  *Organic or not.*



Eggs are unfertilised. They will produce no chicks, hence why it is called an egg.

The only time you will get an chick is when a {censored}erel mates with a chicken.

Organic and ethical farmers do not kill male chicks in any case.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs.aspx

Or to ensure it doesn't keep your own and check the chickens.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Or eat each other - chickens do that frequently.
> 
> But even if the chickens are treated well - free range, organic fed, etcetc the male chicks are still discarded like junk mail (or is that junk male...)



No offence but you really have NO idea about what organic or ethical food is. You should try and do some research before you post. OK so you don't want to eat meat, but please don't back up your arguments with hysteria or falsehood.....thats the kind of tact Peta take.

http://www.livingethically.co.uk/pages/infocus/05sep-chickens.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/01/the-best-kind-of-chicken-farming/68520/


I can post hundreds of other links....but I don't think you are really interested in the truth are you :motherlylove:


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## Randip Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

BACK on topic. ISHNAji and KAMALAji have decided to make it a meat debate. Any more posts on meat will be deleted.

The question is about :

1) Western Vegeterians who eat eggs?
2) Indian Vegetarians who don't eat eggs?

From what I see the Indian vegetarians saying they are saying that western vegetarians are not vegetarians. There seems to be a lot of hear say and a lot of tittle tattle, but no bioogical fact. Interesting.

Links on milk:

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/dairy-industry.aspx

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/Cows-Milk-A-Cruel-and-Unhealthy-Product.aspx

There's even organic in India now:

http://ecocertindia.wordpress.com/

some of the arguments about truw organic:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/13/organic-vs-conventional-h_n_201609.html

local organic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4312591.stm


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## Luckysingh (Jul 4, 2012)

It's not just the eggs, it's all the foods that use egg or egg white, that sometimes goes a little too far in my opinion.
Certain individuals will insist that if invited to your kids birthday party for example, then they will only eat the cake if it has no egg product!!
I'm sure we have all encountered similar situations. They will also not have muffins, pancakes...etc.. 
I remember one who refused to eat my wife's salad because there was a salad dressing with some egg traces!!!

The fact is (which I heard from a chef), that most foods contain some form of egg and egg white, but they only have to DECLARE the content amounts if it exceeds a certain value (ie. an x amount of milligrams). This is because above a certain threshold, the amount can be enough to cause a reaction for people with egg allergies.

So, we can see that someone trying to be completely egg free is more or less near impossible.

It seems crazy that majority of people cannot understand that consuming eggs is no worse than milk!


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## Ishna (Jul 4, 2012)

Randip Singh Ji, with all due respect (which is more than you've cared to show me) I believe you have misunderstood my point. Feel free to delete my clarification here if it goes against your point of view.

I understand quite well how chicken biology works, thank you. Female chickens lay unfertilised eggs if they do not breed with a male. They continue to do so until they stop laying eggs and die. When your chickens die, you get a male and breed some more chickens. As I'm not aware if we can select the sex of the chickens before they hatch, we end up with a bunch of female egg laying chicks and a bunch of male chicks who don't lay eggs. These male chicks are quite often destroyed as they will not produce unfertilised eggs.

A colleague of mine keeps chickens on her semi-rural property just outside of my town. She brings her organic, free range eggs to work and we buy them (myself include, sir). When I visited her fir Christmas one year she explained to the group in conversation that they'd just borrowed a friend's male chicken (rooster, {censored}rel, whatever) and hatched a some more chickens. The males were put in a box, taken out of town a couple of kilometer and left to the foxes.

Please tell me how male chicks are processed in an ethical, organic commercial setup as I would like to know. It is not evident from the links you provided.

If you must delete my post, kindly respond by private message.

Regards.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

Well many "ethical"  organic chicken raisers like myself raise the males for meat...and the hens for eggs.. others may deal with them the way many Sikhs/Punjabis deal with female foetuses ?? Just as a female child seems like a "burden" to many Sikhs..a male chick is a waste of resources to some farmers..to each his own...ethics vary from person to person..
maybe..just maybe..this cycle is divine "retribution"...ALL those who KILLED their Female children - born and unborn..GET to be Reincarnated as MALE CHICKS ( since they LOVED MALE Human babies so much they were willing to KILL female children)..and so get their JUST DESERTS ?? anything goes...maybe you see..... what you WANT is what you get..I ma SURE Kamala Ji will LOVE this part ..he he:grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh:


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## Ishna (Jul 4, 2012)

Gyani ji, you've got the right idea!  I didn't know male chickens were eaten for meat.  That kind of system makes logical, ethical sense.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 5, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Randip Singh Ji, with all due respect (which is more than you've cared to show me) I believe you have misunderstood my point. Feel free to delete my clarification here if it goes against your point of view.
> 
> I understand quite well how chicken biology works, thank you. Female chickens lay unfertilised eggs if they do not breed with a male. They continue to do so until they stop laying eggs and die. When your chickens die, you get a male and breed some more chickens. As I'm not aware if we can select the sex of the chickens before they hatch, we end up with a bunch of female egg laying chicks and a bunch of male chicks who don't lay eggs. These male chicks are quite often destroyed as they will not produce unfertilised eggs.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry if I seemed discurteous, but I find posts that don't back themselves a bit tedious and if you scroll back and re-read some of them you'll see what I mean. Between you wanting to vomit and Kamala making eggs come out of my backside, the topic had gone awry.

Ethical farmers (as Gyani ji pointed out), use male chicks for meat. {censored}erel meat is particularly sought after in the East. 

The problem with {censored}erels is however, left to their own devices, they will attack and kill each other, thats why some think its better to just leave the chicks out to be killed by fox's....at least it provides food for them.

But I really don't see how this is different from milk production, where the calf is removed from the cow, and killed for veal?


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## Ishna (Jul 5, 2012)

Randip ji, yes you were discourteous but I appreciate your apology.  I also apologise for making cheap one-liner posts that don't contribute to meaningful discussion, that was my mistake.  The vomiting was actually with reference to Gyani ji's recounting of the cow being made to urinate with a stick in her business but I failed to make that clear.

I've got no problems with ethical farming practices as yourself and Gyani ji have illustrated and agree with your question - _how is it different than the milk/calf situation?_


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## Randip Singh (Jul 5, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Randip ji, yes you were discourteous but I appreciate your apology. I also apologise for making cheap one-liner posts that don't contribute to meaningful discussion, that was my mistake. The vomiting was actually with reference to Gyani ji's recounting of the cow being made to urinate with a stick in her business but I failed to make that clear.
> 
> I've got no problems with ethical farming practices as yourself and Gyani ji have illustrated and agree with your question - _how is it different than the milk/calf situation?_


 
Me personally, I've tried every spectrum of vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism, to see how my spirituality could accomadate that.

I have come to the conclusion that it is about your own conscious and what it can live with. If you don't like the idea of something then don't do it. Simple!

We have some very good friends in Model Town in Jallandhar, very wealthy and I remember him sat with me (Hindu Vaishnavite btw), telling me how proud he was the he was a vegetarian and he wasn't cruel to animals. He then gets a phone call from someone who sounded quite desperate and to whom he owed money. He put the phone down. I thought how cruel he was to that fellow who was obviously distressed and had owed mony to for years and yet he was saying how kind he was to animals. The hypocrasy was there to be seen. He would no doubt justify what he did.

The same could be said of eggs and milk debate here, with people justifying their positions.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 5, 2012)

> I have come to the conclusion that it is about your own conscious and what it can live with. If you don't like the idea of something then don't do it. Simple!



That is indeed a comprehensive point! And don't impose your own on other!


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## Kamala (Jul 6, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> So let me get this right, any cows you have had have not produced milk  after giving birth.
> 
> Now either you do not understand basic bioligy or  you have milk from mutant cows.
> 
> ...



I still think the sound is of pain, I've owned a couple of parakeets and I know they are really stressed when they lay eggs etc.

As for the cows, I really never was there while they milked the cows, so I didn't know, I just saw our servants milking them and they were quite careful.

Either way I don't see what hak you have to just eat the eggs, even if it is unfertilized. I find it nasty you must eat the food made for a animal that isn't even a mammal :S

You use the chicken as a tool for the sensation of your tastebuds, very nice very nice.


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## Searching (Jul 7, 2012)

I know a person who is lacto vegetarian. His logic for not eating eggs is that "How can something be fit for consumption that comes out from hens private part".

I think people in India over centuries have become used to a certain kind of diet and they feel uncomfortable with the notion of changing it so they come up with various reasons no matter how wrong they are.


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## Kamala (Jul 7, 2012)

Searching said:


> I know a person who is lacto vegetarian. His logic for not eating eggs is that "How can something be fit for consumption that comes out from hens private part".
> 
> I think people in India over centuries have become used to a certain kind of diet and they feel uncomfortable with the notion of changing it so they come up with various reasons no matter how wrong they are.



What kinds of people are you talking about? It's about religious rules if you are talking about most indians.


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## Searching (Jul 7, 2012)

Kamala said:


> What kinds of people are you talking about? It's about religious rules if you are talking about most indians.



Yes Kamala ji. For example Jains do not eat eggs. Also you will find plenty of Hindus and Buddhists who are vegetarians.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 7, 2012)

Kamala said:


> I still think the sound is of pain, I've owned a couple of parakeets and I know they are really stressed when they lay eggs etc.



Err no.

See the link I have posted from Chicken owners. Ther sound is one of exitement. Infact when Chicken lay eggs they go quiet and strain a bit. The whole point of laying an egg is that the gestation happens in the egg.



Kamala said:


> As for the cows, I really never was there while they milked the cows, so I didn't know, I just saw our servants milking them and they were quite careful.



You are missing the point. In order for YOU to have YOUR fill of milk, YOUR servants would deny milk to the calf for whom it was intended. That is plain cruel and selfish.




Kamala said:


> Either way I don't see what hak you have to just eat the eggs, even if it is unfertilized. I find it nasty you must eat the food made for a animal that isn't even a mammal :S



Well I don't see why people have to be so cruel to calf's and deny them milk so they can fill their own belly's.....or maybe that's because most vegetarians in Indian are hypocrits!!! 


Kamala said:


> You use the chicken as a tool for the sensation of your tastebuds, very nice very nice.



Sorry this is hypocritical jibberish!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Are you telling me that every vegetarian food you eat tastes bad? motherlylove

Lacto Vegetarians in their quest to make out they are superior only eat bad tasting food rite?


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## Randip Singh (Jul 7, 2012)

Searching said:


> I know a person who is lacto vegetarian. His logic for not eating eggs is that "How can something be fit for consumption that comes out from hens private part".
> 
> I think people in India over centuries have become used to a certain kind of diet and they feel uncomfortable with the notion of changing it so they come up with various reasons no matter how wrong they are.



A Cow's Teet is a Private Part?


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## Randip Singh (Jul 7, 2012)

Kamala said:


> What kinds of people are you talking about? It's about religious rules if you are talking about most indians.




Maybe the versions of the religion they follow are also hypocritical? I certainly find Vaishnavite's quite hypocritical in many ways.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 7, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> A Cow's Teet is a Private Part?



HA HA HA...perhaps "Private parts" ONLY grow on HUMANS ? eh ?? ha ha
You touch a woman's 2 - its called molestation...you tug at a cow's FOUR..its called MILKING..ha ha


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## Searching (Jul 7, 2012)

> A Cow's Teet is a Private Part?



Well, the actual word he used was not private part but something else which I do not want to write here.


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## Ishna (Jul 7, 2012)

Isn't it curious how humans are generally reviled by the breast milk of our own species but happy to consume the breast milk of a different species altogether, and then for their entire lives, not just when they are infants?

The only other time it happens amongst other species is when there is a foster-mother.  You can sometimes find a big cat who adopts a puppy or something and allows the little one to suckle from her (aaawe  ) but the little one stops when he's weaned and won't drink breast milk again.

I'd like to quote Teal'c from Stargate right about now:

_Major Samantha Carter_:   Why don't you try a glass of warm milk? 
_Teal'c_:   I would prefer not to consume bovine lactose at any temperature.

lol

It is impossible to be Sikh and not consume dairy though.  Who in their right mind would refuse karah prashad?!! And what would we rinse the floor of the Golden Temple with???


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## Randip Singh (Jul 8, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Isn't it curious how humans are generally reviled by the breast milk of our own species but happy to consume the breast milk of a different species altogether, and then for their entire lives, not just when they are infants?
> 
> The only other time it happens amongst other species is when there is a foster-mother.  You can sometimes find a big cat who adopts a puppy or something and allows the little one to suckle from her (aaawe  ) but the little one stops when he's weaned and won't drink breast milk again.
> 
> ...



haha indeed.

Just to be certain however we are not eating Karah Parshad for our tastebuds we should make it taste as horrible as possible . :sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Randip Singh (Jul 8, 2012)

Searching said:


> Well, the actual word he used was not private part but something else which I do not want to write here.


 
I'm joking.

...the point is Indian vegetarians will not consume a waste product from the inside of an animal (an egg) but will consume a product from the inside of an animal that is not a waste product but meant for another animal (milk).


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## Searching (Jul 8, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> I'm joking.
> 
> ...the point is Indian vegetarians will not consume a waste product from the inside of an animal (an animal), but will consume a product from the inside of an animal that is not a waste product but meant for another animal (milk).



Well if we look at it closely an egg represents an embryo, even the unfertilized one. The vegetarians for this reason will avoid eggs. 
Especially for people who are vegetarians for religious reasons will not take a chance.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2012)

Searching said:


> *Well if we look at it closely an egg represents an embryo, even the unfertilized one.* The vegetarians for this reason will avoid eggs.
> Especially for people who are vegetarians for religious reasons will not take a chance.



I think if we split hairs..a SPERM just about represents a  EMBRYO as  well ??? And a spoonfull of Human Sperm contains about 600 - 800 MILLION  "EMBRYOS"...and imagine just How many MEN...actually MURDER about 600  MILLION UNBORN EMBRYOS every time an EJACULATION occurs....in  masturbation..sex with prostitutes..  GAY SEX...etc etc etc...and what  about WET DREAMS ??? More MURDERS ??   HATIAH by the BILLIONS/TRILLIONS  since ages ago ???  ( That is IF we accept that an UNFERTILISED EGG is  an "EMBRYO" as Bro SEARCHING Ji states above...then the SPERM is EQUALLY an Embryo ?? and what shall we call the FERTILISED UNION of 2 EMBRYOS ?? Seems very illogical to me...


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## Searching (Jul 8, 2012)

Gyani ji
What I meant was that eggs in birds is equivalent to embryo in mammals. They are analogous. It is in this relation that maybe some vegetarians want to refrain from eating them. As something that can potentially give life within it.

And no sperms do not represent embryo. Sperms are something that can lead to embryo if they reach ovary and fertilize egg.
If I were to take that logic then *****, testicles, prostate, vas deferens, tunica vaginalis, ovary, fallopian tube, uterus bla bla bla all represent embryo.
But sadly they do not.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2012)

Searching ji,
i get what you mean.
Still an EGG is nothing or equal to a single sperm until and unless the two MERGE and then the UNION is called EMBRYO....meaning SEPARATELY the  egg and sperm are just two halves of one...Thanks ji..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2012)

also an egg or sperm is NOT an ORGAN..as the ones you mentioned are...


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## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2012)

this is not a good thread to read whilst eating an egg sandwich and drinking a glass of lassi.............


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2012)

harry haller said:


> this is not a good thread to read whilst eating an egg sandwich and drinking a glass of lassi.............



Thats my regular LUNCH....with just a dash of salad with yoghurt...as filler..


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## Randip Singh (Jul 9, 2012)

Searching said:


> Well if we look at it closely an egg represents an embryo, even the unfertilized one. The vegetarians for this reason will avoid eggs.
> Especially for people who are vegetarians for religious reasons will not take a chance.


 
Hi my friend this goes to the crux of the issue:

EGG + SPERM = EMBRYO = Chick

EGG + NOTHING = EGG = WASTE

SPERM + NOTHING = WASTE

This is basic biology.

Everything is capable of producing life. In milk we have living bacteria, we have some cow blood cells, we have many other things. In fact if you leave milk alone it becomes yogurt, which is teeming with life. Farr more than any egg.

We live in the 21st century and religious people do not have to believe in the bogey man, superstition and that Amitabh Bachan can beat up 20 men any more. 

Science tells us this clearly.

I think the problem is not one of religion, but of ignorance.


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## Searching (Jul 9, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Hi my friend this goes to the crux of the issue:
> 
> EGG + SPERM = EMBRYO = Chick
> 
> ...




Dear Randip ji.
I am well versed in basic biology. Trust me.

I will try and explain once again what I meant.
A chick is nourished and develops inside an egg just like an embryo is in womb/uterus. It is that relation of an egg with embryo, even if it does not contain one that may repulse vegetarians from eating it.

I am a non vegetarian by diet and only trying to guess what some vegetarians may feel about consuming egg. 

Between egg is not a  waste product. It is meant to be fertilized by rooster and produce chicks which we humans prevent from happening in poultry farms so that we can eat them.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 9, 2012)

Searching Ji..
<<<between egg="" is="" not="" a="" waste="" product.="" it="" meant="" to="" be="" fertilized="" by="" rooster="" and="" produce="" chicks="" which="" we="" humans="" prevent="" from="" happening="" in="" poultry="" farms="" so="" that="" can="" eat="" them.="" 
 </between>Between egg is not a  waste product. It is  meant to be fertilized by rooster and produce chicks which we humans  prevent from happening in poultry farms so that we can eat them.    


<between egg="" is="" not="" a="" waste="" product.="" it="" meant="" to="" be="" fertilized="" by="" rooster="" and="" produce="" chicks="" which="" we="" humans="" prevent="" from="" happening="" in="" poultry="" farms="" so="" that="" can="" eat="" them.="" 
>>>.
imho THIS is Natural and as per HUKM...billions of unfertilised eggs are wasted by HUMANS each time a woman gets her monthly there is a wasted egg.....each time a fish lays eggs in the open oceans...each time salmons etc swim up the mountain streams, etc etc...billions of eggs go by without being fertilised and resulting in living embryos...Humans are not involved...</between>


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## Rory (Jul 9, 2012)

Gyaniji I have to say you always seem to have something profound to add to a discussion


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 9, 2012)

Rory said:


> Gyaniji I have to say you always seem to have something profound to add to a discussion



Thank you Rory Ji for the kind words..But this is what SGGS has taught me..to look at everything from a wide number of directions and layers upon layers....actually nothing is as simple as we think it is..he he
Just look at how the various Threads evolve..from a simple request to translate 3 words..we had different perspectives on language, etc..THAT is the real beauty of *SPN*..we have a wide pool of talent..each poster is unique in his/her own way and possesses a vital expertise that no other has...and we all benefit from all these various talented posters...ALL SIKHS and each in various shades...making a *SPN RAINBOW* in the SKY that is beyond beautiful...its stupendously magnificent !!  I am happy to be  a tiny speck of  a star in the  SPN galaxy...adding my light which is actually REFLECTED LIGHT from SGGS !! CHEERS and Happy posting/browsing..and SIKHING...


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## Kamala (Jul 10, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Err no.
> 
> See the link I have posted from Chicken owners. Ther sound is one of  exitement. Infact when Chicken lay eggs they go quiet and strain a bit.  The whole point of laying an egg is that the gestation happens in the  egg.


When my Parakeet would lay eggs it is so stressed, I don't see how it is the sound of pain.


> You are missing the point. In order for YOU to have YOUR fill of milk,  YOUR servants would deny milk to the calf for whom it was intended. That  is plain cruel and selfish.


I am vegan though  You are the one drinking milk not me~~~


> Well I don't see why people have to be so cruel to calf's and deny them  milk so they can fill their own belly's.....or maybe that's because most  vegetarians in Indian are hypocrits!!!


I don't think that is hypocritical since in Vaishnavism and other Hindu sects it is told that milk is sacred and you can drink it. Kinda like how in the gurdwara they have tablas with animal hide on it but still seems "ok" to us amritdhari Sikhs because it gives sound.


> Sorry this is hypocritical jibberish!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol they may not taste bad, but they are not harming the feelings of a breathing living animal


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## Kamala (Jul 10, 2012)

> Maybe the versions of the religion they follow are also hypocritical? I  certainly find Vaishnavite's quite hypocritical in many ways.



I will have fun to see what you think is hypocritical.


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## Searching (Jul 10, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Searching Ji..
> <<<between egg="" is="" not="" a="" waste="" product.="" it="" meant="" to="" be="" fertilized="" by="" rooster="" and="" produce="" chicks="" which="" we="" humans="" prevent="" from="" happening="" in="" poultry="" farms="" so="" that="" can="" eat="" them.=""
> </between>Between egg is not a  waste product. It is  meant to be fertilized by rooster and produce chicks which we humans  prevent from happening in poultry farms so that we can eat them.
> 
> ...




Gyani ji
There is no disputing what you have said. But there is difference in going to waste and waste product.
Urine and excreta are waste products produced by animals. Not egg.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Searching said:


> Gyani ji
> There is no disputing what you have said. But there is difference in going to waste and waste product.
> Urine and excreta are waste products produced by animals. Not egg.



In the WILD..these unfertilised eggs are also eaten by animals like snakes, certain predatory birds, wolves, etc etc.. and those NOT so eaten are wasted as they will turn bad and into manure soon after..and excreta and urine too become manure/fertiliser or these support a myriad of LIFE that needs these waste matter to survive...example dung beetle has elephant dung in its life cycle..so really its ALL IN HIS HUKM...Laws of NATURE go on and ON regardless of what we humans believe in as sacred/dirty/waste/not waste etc etc...its a CYCLE OF LIFE and it goes ON...its HUMAN prejudices and practises that turn food into such a hassle....Dont eat that..EAT this..dont do that..DO THIS etc etc...


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## Randip Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Searching said:


> Dear Randip ji.
> I am well versed in basic biology. Trust me.
> 
> I will try and explain once again what I meant.
> ...


 
I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that it is based on ignorance rather than religion.

..and we have already established that the chicken biologically lays its egg as part of it's cycle, regardless of whether a rooster is present or not. Scroll through the thread and you'll find the links:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pets/chicken.htm

*Hens lay eggs, roosters do not. When a hen lays an egg it will only hatch into a chick if a rooster has fertilized the egg by mating with the hen. The hen and the rooster must mate before the egg is laid in order for the egg to be fertilized. If a rooster does not mate with the hen the egg will not be fertilized. Hens will lay eggs even if a rooster is not present. Most eggs you buy in the store are not fertilized because there was no rooster present*

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7223811_do-rooster-hen-lay-eggs_.html

_A hen does not need a rooster to lay an egg. Hens ovulate regularly, regardless of whether there is contact with a male or not. Most grocery store eggs come from hens that have never seen a rooster. _

http://www.chicken-raising.com/

_Egg production is primarily controlled by the amount of daylight the animal gets. For full production, your chickens will need 14 hours of daylight per day...............If you just want eggs, you don't need males at all. Hens and ducks will lay eggs without a rooster or drake present_

http://www.fredsfinefowl.com/chickeneggfacts.html

[SIZE=+0]A hen will lay eggs, even in the absence of a rooster.  Eggs from the grocery store, will not hatch if you put them in an incubator, as they are generally not fertile.  [/SIZE]


This is the kind of ignorance I'm talking about. Educated people like you and me should know stuff like this. icecreamkudi


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## Randip Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Kamala said:


> When my Parakeet would lay eggs it is so stressed, I don't see how it is the sound of pain.


 
Repeating the same thing over and over again won't make it true. I think we've already established from people who keep chickens and links on this thread that the chicken is not in pain but more excited.



Kamala said:


> I am vegan though  You are the one drinking milk not me~~~


 
well good for you...I'm talking about the 400 million of your countrymen in India who are lacto-hypocrits. 



Kamala said:


> I don't think that is hypocritical since in Vaishnavism and other Hindu sects it is told that milk is sacred and you can drink it. Kinda like how in the gurdwara they have tablas with animal hide on it but still seems "ok" to us amritdhari Sikhs because it gives sound.


 
Both are hypocrital. I've argued before leather in Gurudwara's is PURE hypocrasy....but this is a problem with the Indian mindset.





Kamala said:


> Lol they may not taste bad, but they are not harming the feelings of a breathing living animal


 
Neither is eating eggs. It harms no one.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Kamala said:


> I will have fun to see what you think is hypocritical.


 
You have to remember many Sikh converts have Vaishnavite leanings, but if you say that to them, they would be ready to kill you and me   ..........but they still won't harm an animal....lol


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## Randip Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Searching said:


> Gyani ji
> There is no disputing what you have said. But there is difference in going to waste and waste product.
> Urine and excreta are waste products produced by animals. Not egg.


 
Egg is a waste product, we've established that. Scroll up.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 10, 2012)

> I don't think that is hypocritical since in Vaishnavism and other Hindu sects it is told that milk is sacred and you can drink it. Kinda like how in the gurdwara they have tablas with animal hide on it but still seems "ok" to *us* amritdhari Sikhs because it gives sound.



Kamalaji

are you Amritdhari?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Ace Ventura.."pet detective"...is my favourite harry Ji....


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## Luckysingh (Jul 10, 2012)

We can see by reading these 'unaccepting' attitudes, why we have this unnacepting problem among us.
For those of you that did NOT know that the egg is not fertilised and it was released as per cycle, regardless if there would be baby chicks or not.- Well, you must all have a better idea about where the egg comes from and how the milk is derived.- YET still there is this unaccepting attitude among some.

Fact is - NO embryo, No future life is killed, egg is released naturally as part of biological mechanism, there is NO Pain and there is NO attachment of the egg to the mother, once it is released.

So, I can't understand why the 'unacceptables' are still having a problem accepting the difference between consuming milk or eggs!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 11, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> We can see by reading these 'unaccepting' attitudes, why we have this unnacepting problem among us.
> For those of you that did NOT know that the egg is not fertilised and it was released as per cycle, regardless if there would be baby chicks or not.- Well, you must all have a better idea about where the egg comes from and how the milk is derived.- YET still there is this unaccepting attitude among some.
> 
> Fact is - NO embryo, No future life is killed, egg is released naturally as part of biological mechanism, there is NO Pain and there is NO attachment of the egg to the mother, once it is released.
> ...



Its called the "MAI NA MAANU" attitude...Simply put.." I DONT ACCEPT" PERIOD.

I juts wish that compared to the energy we put into "I DONT ACCEPT EGGS" into.."I DONT CONDONE KILLING FEMALE EMBRYOS"..endeavour..PUNJAB will soon see a drop in female foeticide...Bride Burning...Noohn murders, nooh tortures..harrassments wife beatings etc etc...THOSE are REAL Burning Issues and NOT piece of calcium encased egg emerging out of a hen's back. LOOKS like most Punjabis are more concerned with the alleged pain a Hen feels in its NATURAL FUNCTION than with the GROSS PAINS described above that most women go through...we have the priorities WRONG..winkingmunda


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## Randip Singh (Jul 11, 2012)

Lucky Singh ji and Gyani ji some excellent points. I wonder when the veil of ignorance will leave people from the subcontinent.


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## Rory (Jul 11, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh-ji said:
			
		

> Noohn murders


Can I ask what a Noohn is?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 11, 2012)

Nooh* is daughter in law


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## Kamala (Jul 12, 2012)

> Kamalaji
> are you Amritdhari?


Yes. Seems like a surprise to you guys.


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## Rory (Jul 13, 2012)

Good work Kamala :grinningsingh:


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## Rory (Jul 13, 2012)

Gyani-ji you mentioned on one post "gyan kharragh", I googled this and couldn't find the meaning and I've been wondering about it since. Can you translate?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 13, 2012)

Some pointers:
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Shastar_Nam_Mala

This one has contents in Punjabi:
http://archive.org/details/Meeri-peeri-PeeriDiAsalTalvar-GuruGyanKhadag


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 13, 2012)

Rory said:


> Gyani-ji you mentioned on one post "gyan kharragh", I googled this and couldn't find the meaning and I've been wondering about it since. Can you translate?


Kharragh means SWORD and GYAAN means KNOWLEDGE..awareness..empowerment...vision..Education

So a SIKH needs to be first and foremost fully equipped with knowledge, ability to ask questions, find answers, educated, aware of issues, that is CARRY the Gyaan kahrragh SWORD of KNOWLEDGE..long before he attempts to carry the KIRPAN - physical symbol of the Gyaan Kharragh. GURU NANAK Ji began this process.... touring the worlds known holy places, places with huge congregations *spreading* His knowledge and at the same time *COLLECTING* from others..Kabir Ji..Namdev Ji, Ravi dass Ji etc etc etc  going to mecca, hadwaar, Sri Lanka etc etc etc...Guru Angad Ji progressed with opening schools, having sports meets, wrestling contests, athletics, the GURMUKHI SCRIPT etc ...and the Institution of Guru ka Langgar as  a form of feeding the stomach as well as the MIND...(Hungry people seldom concentrate well)...and Guru Amardass ji progressed further in cinsolidating Sikh festivals a s gathering points, established 22 DISTRICT PARCHAAR CENTRES with WOMEN as heads of some, banned the VEIL, Child marriage, ENCOURAGED widow remarriage and empowered WOMEN as Guru nanak ji instructed...then Guru ramdass ji constructed the City of Amrtisar and Harmandar sahiba s the Central Sikh Shrine/Holy Ciity and Guru Arjun Ji gave us the SGGS..the Sikh cannon to prevent any adulteration/piracy/copying/adding etc to the sacred bani that Gurus collected/assembled/wrote...a special GURBANI GRAMMAR and ACCOUNTING SYSTEM was put in place..(thats why the SGGS is today virtually untouched and in its Original state)..the Sixth Seventh Eighth spread all these further all over India..and Finally Guru TEG BAHADUR JI again REVISITED ALL the Places GURU Nanank ji had visited 300 years earlier to set the STAGE for the FINAL ACT of SIKHISM which GURU GOBIND SINGH JI would soon put in MOTION...GIVE the KHALSA BROTHERHOOD the PHYSICAL KIRPAN and the other Kakaars as a VISIBLE UNIFORM becasue the SIKHS were already well prepared INSIDE. This entire BACHITAR NATAK Dramatic Play took 10 Guru Lifetimes, and over 220 YEARS from 1469- 1699- 1708 when the SGGS was INSTALLED as the Final and last GURU for eternity...hence the SGGS is the GYAAN KHARRAGH and the SIKH carries the Kakaars as physical symbols of this Gyaan.

What we have today are some Holy men called sants in an attempt to OUTDO each other have the habit of CREATING INSTANT AMRITDHAREES...with the 5 kakaars being carried around..just like a Kindergarten Kid being bestowed a PHD Degree on his FIRST DAY at Kiddie school and the kiddie begins to behave as if he is a Professor !! The SIKH SCHOOL actually BEGINS with Khandey dee pahul (amritdhareeism)...and thats NOT the END at all..its the BEGINNING...wearing the uniform..and begin STUDYING all the way through primary/secondary/college/university...until you reach PHD status INSIDE !! Thus IF we actually ADD all the figures given out by these Sants deras..you will arrive at a Figure of about 1 BILLION AMRITDHAREES....but thats isnt true because mostly all are exaggerated and inflated figures...and mostly all such INstant amritdharees are *EMPTY VESSELS*...that strut around in their bannas and weapons all over but essentially empty of GYAAN of SGGS..the humility, the love, the humanity etc etc...

I hope this isnt too long an explanation...but i had to elaborate so you get what i mean...BE a GYAAN Kharaggh carrier first before you carry the Kirpan...


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## princess kaur (Jul 14, 2012)

so i can concude here that sikhs can eat unfertilised eggs? is it or not????


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2012)

Sikhs can eat anything they want, although Jhatka is the preferred method of dispatch for animals, however, some Sikhs do believe there are restrictions but thats ok, it just means more meat for the rest of us


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## Kamala (Jul 14, 2012)

What I believe is that Sikhs can drink milk if the animal isn't harmed. That's why I am vegan in Canada, since I do not know. I will not eat meat because I would rather have alternative vegetarian food since it equally tastes as nice. As for eggs; I just will not eat it because it is from the private part of a animal.. I know they don't have the Baby in it, but still the Chicken goes through a lot to let the egg out, the living conditions of the mothers of the eggs are horrible here.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 14, 2012)

Aiyah..the MILK also comes from the Private parts of the Cow...!!!/ Buffalo...she camel...she goat...sheep..whatever...its just our own prejudice...to a westerner who roams NUDE on a Beach....and to an Indian...Taliban afghani woman..etc..Private parts would be vastly different meanings too...a westerner cna bare everythinga nd yet feel ok..a talibani woman cnat even show her eyebrows...she will die of a heart attack if air dropped on a NUDIST Beach !! ahhajapposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Seeker9 (Jul 14, 2012)

Kamala said:


> What I believe is that Sikhs can drink milk if the animal isn't harmed. That's why I am vegan in Canada, since I do not know. I will not eat meat because I would rather have alternative vegetarian food since it equally tastes as nice. As for eggs; I just will not eat it because it is from the private part of a animal.. I know they don't have the Baby in it, but still the Chicken goes through a lot to let the egg out, the living conditions of the mothers of the eggs are horrible here.



Re private parts, you don't have to eat the shell
Re cages, try free range instead


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## Luckysingh (Jul 14, 2012)

Private parts are ONLY 'private' if you consider them as such.
It's about personal dignity, thats all.- I mean there are two types of people in this world. At public showers such as gyms and pools, you will find one kind that shower with their privates covered completely and you will find the other that openly shower or bathe and just regard their privates as another part of the body that needs washing!!
It is this high dignity for their privates fo the 1st lost that differentiates them from the exposing 2nd lot. 

From the way I talk about this, I bet you can tell which 'lot' or category I fall under!!


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## Ishna (Jul 14, 2012)

The chicken is still going to lay the egg regardless of whether you eat it or not.  It could be argued that not eating causes the chicken to 'suffer' for nothing.

Much like how Punjabi women suffer and give birth to baby girls and then kill them.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 15, 2012)

ISHNA JI..


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## Randip Singh (Jul 15, 2012)

Kamala said:


> What I believe is that Sikhs can drink milk if the animal isn't harmed. That's why I am vegan in Canada, since I do not know. I will not eat meat because I would rather have alternative vegetarian food since it equally tastes as nice. As for eggs; I just will not eat it because it is from the private part of a animal.. I know they don't have the Baby in it, but still the Chicken goes through a lot to let the egg out, the living conditions of the mothers of the eggs are horrible here.



Ok lets clear this nonsense up about Chickens feeling pain when they lay eggs:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...434027916.html

_The  egg laying process is very dramatic!   Here's what my hens do, see if  it matches yours:  when one is about to  lay an egg, she will go rather  frantically from nesting spot to nesting  spot in the yard, all the  while bawking and crying in a fretful tone,  sometimes she'll seem  downright frenzied.  Sometimes other hens or the  roo will accompiany  her in her search for the Perfect Nesting Spot, and  THEY have to get in  on the noisemaking, too.  The hen may also watch  another hen who is  laying, sticking her head in the nest box and  cackling her head off at  the top of her lungs.  We call this the  'pre-egg cackle', and I think  it serves to draw out any predators before  the hen is committed to  laying the egg and is stuck on the nest.    When  the hen is FINALLY  actually ready to lay, she gets very quiet and  secretive.  She'll  choose a nest (usually the same one she used before,  despite all the  searching that went on before) and as she sits, will  seem to go into a  trance, being quite still.  When the egg is coming out  she will stand  up and concentrate hard (Moms who have seen their small  children  passing a bowel movement know this look!) and seem to strain a  bit,  then out pops the egg!  After this she may stay and mother it for a  few  minutes, then will leap from the nest cackling loudly and sometimes   running.  Most of the time she'll go and eat a little food and have a   drink.    
*All the hens treat their egg laying (and everyone else's) as a cause for loud celebration.   I think the noise you are hearing is that rather than screams of pain.* *   Also, for first-time layers, there is that freaked-out, 'what the heck   just happened to me?!' quality to the hens' reaction to laying her   first eggs.*  *L*  They take this more in stride as they mature.  The   only time I'd worry is if you suspect a hen is egg-bound, and then you   need to act very quickly.  It isn't very common in chickens who get a   good diet and proper care though.  The symptoms of an eggbound hen are   fairly marked, if you want to read more on it research the Internet or   click on my 'My Page' link, I've discussed eggbinding there a bit._

*On Chcken egg laying*

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pets/chicken.htm

*Hens  lay eggs, roosters do not. When a hen lays an egg it will only hatch  into a chick if a rooster has fertilized the egg by mating with the hen.  The hen and the rooster must mate before the egg is laid in order for  the egg to be fertilized. If a rooster does not mate with the hen the  egg will not be fertilized. Hens will lay eggs even if a rooster is not  present. Most eggs you buy in the store are not fertilized because there  was no rooster present*

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7223811_do...lay-eggs_.html

_A  hen does not need a rooster to lay an egg. Hens ovulate regularly,  regardless of whether there is contact with a male or not. Most grocery  store eggs come from hens that have never seen a rooster. _

http://www.chicken-raising.com/

_Egg  production is primarily controlled by the amount of daylight the animal  gets. For full production, your chickens will need 14 hours of daylight  per day...............If you just want eggs, you don't need males at  all. Hens and ducks will lay eggs without a rooster or drake present_

http://www.fredsfinefowl.com/chickeneggfacts.html

[SIZE=-0]A  hen will lay eggs, even in the absence of a rooster.  Eggs from the  grocery store, will not hatch if you put them in an incubator, as they  are generally not fertile.  [/SIZE]

*Links on milk (it too comes out of a cow's private parts):*

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...-industry.aspx


http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...y-Product.aspx

There's even organic in India now:

http://ecocertindia.wordpress.com/

some of the arguments about true organic:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_201609.html

local organic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4312591.stm


animatedkhanda1

I think to really be safe on milk and eggs, you can only keep your own to ensure their welfare.


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## Taranjeet singh (Sep 7, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> This question is not about Sikhism, but about the Indian mentality.
> 
> In the West vegetarians (not vegans), tend to eat eggs.
> 
> ...



Randip ji,

I hope your friend must have read this thread with interest and all that was required to be proved ,probably, has been proved i.e Indains are* dumb*
The word is slightly derogatory and would , in general means: as per my understanding, a fool, stupid or less intelligent.Kindly correct me if you meant something else.

India is a large country and has been able to increase its per capita by 200 times from the year 1947 till 2011. It speaks volumes of Indian intelligence and level of IQ. There are many achievements of Indians and , I am sure, you you are aware of  or you can refer to wikipedia or other sources for finding out to establish if Indian or Indian society is intelligent as others are.I have little comments to make on the artifices included in the thread at many places to suit individual's convenience.You are the one who is required to assay that as you are the best Judge.

Had Indian society been dumb  it could not have achieved economic advancement as it had done. Indian senators/leaders have , in their own wisdom, also rejected the aid given by some country and we all appreciate their valiant effort.

Continuing with my thoughts, I would say that Indians are as intelligent as any Brit is even if Indians may not take eggs and consume milk.
Or 
Would you insist that Indian population that counts for about 1200 million is dumb.?[ Please do not mind about this figure], I have rounded off the figure. After all it is a friendly discussion.

Facts, as stated above, do not say so. 
I am also of the belief that, If one is dumb , one is likely to be dumb in all other fields. Such is not the case. 

Yes, if conclusion is absurd there should be something wrong with the premise or hypothesis. Your conclusion is false and baseless. It is my opinion. Kindly state with full facts and figures that a country with population as high as stated above is inhabited by people who are less intelligent than Brits / European.

Carte Blanche authorisation, that you have does not entitle you to prove that cannot be proved.Kindly think over and provide a cogent analysis of the proposition and the final outcomes that results in saying that almost 17 percent of inhabitants of this Globe are fools or less intelligent.Kindly do not concoct things. 

Question is simple and so should be the answer to prove that such a large number of people are really that, that you and your friend has stated to be and I am not in agreement with even after so much of your blessed writing.


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## itsmaneet (Sep 8, 2012)

Don't know much about detailed biology but I know one thing - 

A mother is very happy offering milk to her kids be it with human or animals. I have hardly seen any mother kicking her kids & not offering them milk. So milk is smthg tht a mother offers to her kids with love but it's not the case with eggs may be. A mother is expecting the baby from her egg & eventually humans take it away & do not allow the birth (it's smwht for selfish pleasure) & the mother is hurt. ... isn't it?


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## Randip Singh (Sep 15, 2012)

itsmaneet said:


> Don't know much about detailed biology but I know one thing -
> 
> A mother is very happy offering milk to her kids be it with human or animals. I have hardly seen any mother kicking her kids & not offering them milk. So milk is smthg tht a mother offers to her kids with love but it's not the case with eggs may be. A mother is expecting the baby from her egg & eventually humans take it away & do not allow the birth (it's smwht for selfish pleasure) & the mother is hurt. ... isn't it?



Nonsense!!

You haven't read any of the other posts. This proves my initial point.:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Randip Singh (Sep 16, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Randip ji,
> 
> 
> Would you insist that Indian population that counts for about 1200 million is dumb.?[ Please do not mind about this figure], I have rounded off the figure. After all it is a friendly discussion.


My opinion is they are NOT ALL dumb. Only about 30%. Thats the Lacto Vegetarians or Vashnavites and Vashnavite minded Sikhs


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 17, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> My opinion is they are NOT ALL dumb. Only about 30%. Thats the Lacto Vegetarians or Vashnavites and Vashnavite minded Sikhs



Is a "Figure" amounting to Millions Billion Trillion a GUARANTEE of NOT BEING DUMB ??  just One SHINING EXAMPLE from Sikh History can be Proof enough even for Legal experts ???

Guru nanak ji saw a *HUGE CROWD *at KUMBH MELA Hardwaar..where He sought to Have a *PARADIGM SHIFT* by throwing Waters towards the WEST PUNJAB..whereas *EVERYONE ELSE* was THROWING WATER towards the EAST - SUN. Guru nanak ji sahib is *JUST ONE SINGLE PERSON*...while the Huge Crowd..how many ?? is anybody's Guess ???..BUT WHO IS "DUMB"...certainly it has to be GURU NANAK JI because Hes just ONE PERSON !!!OR Its the other way around >?.. MILLIONS DUMB and DUMBER !! Take your pick.  I PUT IT that "mere crowds/figures/majoirity..doenst guarantee BRAIN MATTER...*1200 million CAN be DUMB*.
Still friendly discussion Jios...no offense....


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## TigerStyleZ (Sep 17, 2012)

The  first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its  books, its culture, its history, Then have somebody write new books,  manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation  will begin to forget what it is and what it was. The world around it  will forget even faster……The struggle of man against power is the  struggle of memory against forgetting. - Milan Kundera 


This is my viewpoint...



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You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 17, 2012)

TigerStyleZ said:


> The  first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its  books, its culture, its history, Then have somebody write new books,  manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation  will begin to forget what it is and what it was. The world around it  will forget even faster……The struggle of man against power is the  struggle of memory against forgetting. - Milan Kundera
> 
> 
> This is my viewpoint...
> ...



Those STEPS began to be taken with the very first incident when a wall suspicioulsy fell on Guur nanak ji...and then there have been steps too numeorus to count..dg is one of them...


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