# Understanding Gurbani



## Sikh80

Dear friends 

I am making this post to go round second time. Shall be oblidged if meaning of the above is clarified by anyone.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80ji

Actually there may not be an "explanation" but rather an understanding. These lines require an authentic veechar -- which is a deeper undertaking. My opinion of course.


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## Sikh80

Sikh80 said:


> gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.
> ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.
> 
> -
> The above lines refer to TRUE Merchandise and Genuine Article, TRUE Capital. What are these things that Guru Sahibaan are pointing at.?
> 
> Das Shall be grateful as ever for an explanation.


 
Respected aad ji,
I am not sure as to how to arrive at contemplation of these  words unless one can enthread the ideas behind the lines.
As the words require clarification is 'true', it is talking about the True merchandis/genuine  Article  and true capital should be that we earn or possess. We do not make tru capital without Simran.Hence true capital would be the time that we are allowed to spend in simran/chanting/meditation etc..
Kindly correct me.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80

What I am saying is that a quick explanation doesn't do the bani justice.


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## Sikh80

In that case would you be nice enough if you could kindly share the concepts that you have built. It may be thru. PM if you prefer. 
As per your convenience only.


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## Randip Singh

Sikh80 said:


> gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.
> ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.
> 
> -
> The above lines refer to TRUE Merchandise and Genuine Article, TRUE Capital. What are these things that Guru Sahibaan are pointing at.?
> 
> Das Shall be grateful as ever for an explanation.



Sikh80 ji.

Can I make a suggestion. When we post one or two times from an Ang we lose the meaning. Post the entire Ang/Shabad/Mehla and then we can discuss my friend. Do not forget page numbers.

Thanks.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful reference from Gurdev's Vaaks.

So many translations are available in the market. May I ask which one is the best liked by Sikh public?


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

Rrspected Randip ji/Balbir ji
AS desired I am giving below the lines from SGGS ji,Ang 18.The specific lines are colored. 


isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (18-4)
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
 BlI srI ij aubrI haumY mueI Grwhu ] (18-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
It all worked out-I was saved, and the egotism within my heart was subdued.
 dUq lgy iPir cwkrI siqgur kw vyswhu ] (18-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The evil energies have been made to serve me, since I placed my faith in the True Guru.
 klp iqAwgI bwid hY scw vyprvwhu ]1] (18-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
I have renounced my useless schemes, by the Grace of the True, Carefree Lord. ||1||
 mn ry scu imlY Bau jwie ] (18-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O mind, meeting with the True One, fear departs.
 BY ibnu inrBau ikau QIAY gurmuiK sbid smwie ]1] rhwau ] (18-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Without the Fear of God, how can anyone become fearless? Become Gurmukh, and immerse yourself in the Shabad. ||1||Pause||
 kyqw AwKxu AwKIAY AwKix qoit n hoie ] (18-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
How can we describe Him with words? There is no end to the descriptions of Him.
 mMgx vwly kyqVy dwqw eyko soie ] (18-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
There are so many beggars, but He is the only Giver.
 ijs ky jIA prwx hY min visAY suKu hoie ]2] (18-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
He is the Giver of the soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life; when He dwells within the mind, there is peace. ||2||
 jgu supnw bwjI bnI iKn mih Kylu Kylwie ] (18-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out.
 sMjogI imil eyksy ivjogI auiT jwie ] (18-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Some attain union with the Lord, while others depart in separation.
 jo iqsu Bwxw so QIAY Avru n krxw jwie ]3] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Whatever pleases Him comes to pass; nothing else can be done. ||3||
 gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.
 ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.
 nwnk vsqu pCwxsI scu saudw ijsu pwis ]4]11] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, one who stocks this True Merchandise shall recognize and realize the Genuine Article. ||4||11||


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Thanks for your efforts providing the translation.

gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.
ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.

The translation of the first Vaak provided is "The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital."
It is the contemplation. The true Guru provides the genuine Thing (Vasatu). This is true Naam. May I ask who preached Sikhs that one can purchase the true Naam?
Also, true capital grows with the Naam Simran. Strange, some possess it, all ready to buy true Naam.

The translation of the next Vaak provided is "Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed."
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the perfect Guru as preachers try to convince all Sikhs. I cannot imagine He is the perfect Guru who has placed the thick iron box (golak) to keep the sales safe from culprits. Some visitors may be feeling blessed offering a part of their mayic earnings though.

I feel the business oriented dealings in the world has inspired the translator.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!
> 
> Thanks for your efforts providing the translation.
> 
> gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.
> ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.
> 
> The translation of the first Vaak provided is "The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital."
> 
> It is the contemplation. The true Guru provides the genuine Thing (Vasatu). This is true Naam. May I ask who preached Sikhs that one can purchase the true Naam?
> 
> Also, true capital grows with the Naam Simran. Strange, some possess it, all ready to buy true Naam.
> 
> The translation of the next Vaak provided is "Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed."
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the perfect Guru as preachers try to convince all Sikhs. I cannot imagine He is the perfect Guru who has placed the thick iron box (golak) to keep the sales safe from culprits. Some visitors may be feeling blessed offering a part of their mayic earnings though.
> 
> I feel the business oriented dealings in the world has inspired the translator.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 
Thanks Balbir ji for a wonderful explanation.

1.The line refers to purchase.It means an exchange of one thing for the Naam.[true merchandise] If Gurmukh gets naam he must have some true capital. This true capital is the simran.

2. The second lines states that the process of purchas eis thru. the Guru.{perfect Guru]

You have put in some questions in the post. Yes, It SGGS ji that tells us that we should have naam else we waste the life.


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## Sikh80

One way of looking at the above could be that we have given precious breath or Pranas in this life ,it can be also our true capital. It is with this capital of limited Time [ Limited Breaths] that one carryout Simran and earn the true thing Naam thru. perfect Guru.
Balbir ji, Incidentally SGGS ji or God HImself is our Guru. It is thru. SGGS that we attain the Naam of lord and then contemplate on this.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "1.The line refers to purchase.It means an exchange of one thing for the Naam.[true merchandise] If Gurmukh gets naam he must have some true capital. This true capital is the simran."
I do not find any word in the great Vaak from Gurdev that one can translate purchase.
Also, one receives Naam first. Simran begins. The true capital starts growing.

Quote "2. The second lines states that the process of purchas eis thru. the Guru.{perfect Guru]"
Please explain. Which words are translated 'the process of purchase'?

Quote "You have put in some questions in the post. Yes, It SGGS ji that tells us that we should have naam else we waste the life."
This is right. Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also tells us to purchase the Naam else we waste the life?

Quote "However, the basic question that arises is if already one is engaged in simran of 'waheguru' [the naam] what will one get."
This is interesting. Not only Sikhs many others know also now that 'Waheguru' is the Naam. Thanks to the advertising techniques of the Sikh preachers. Still, the number of forums is increasing to discuss what is Naam.

Quote "In such an eventuality the meaning of the above two lines will need a change as one has already a 'naam'."
The essence of each Vaak from the true Gurus remains the same. The translators go on changing the meanings according to their developed consciousness.

**************

Quote "One way of looking at the above could be that we have given precious breath or Pranas in this life ,it can be also our true capital."
This is an illusion. No ego has ever given precious breath or Pranas. Ego is not the owner of this domain either.

Quote "It is with this capital of limited Time [ Limited Breaths] that one carryout Simran and earn the true thing Naam thru. perfect Guru."
I hope some have understood it and nothing is missing now.

Quote "Incidentally SGGS ji or God HImself is our Guru."
God is ONE. Please experience ONE in anyONE. The word 'or' vanishes then.

Quote "It is thru. SGGS that we attain the Naam of lord and then contemplate on this."
Did Gurdev ever confirm that SGGS is the giver of the Naam of Lord?  


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

Dear Balbir ji,
Your first post was nice.
The second is confusing the issue as my comments and your comments have got mixed up. Yes, it is in SGGS ji that we get the knowledge that one's life is wasted without Naam.
Further wahguru is naam , it is the way I have conceptualised.
Please give your answer independently not in the form of line by line analysis.


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## simpy

*FORGIVE ME BALBIR JI (for the interruption from me neech)*

*Your words :*


> "Did Gurdev ever confirm that SGGS is the giver of the giver of the Naam of Lord"
> 
> "God is ONE. Please experience ONE in anyONE. The word 'or' vanishes then"


*in contrast to all the rest of your post my question to you is:*

*HOW COME 'GURDEV' IS DIFFERENT THAN DHAN DHAN SGGS JI, AND NEED A CONFIRMATION TO BE __________??????????*





*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Sikh80

I think For sikhs it is true that only SGGS ji or The GOD Himself can be the Guru.

1. SGGS ji is 'sabad guru' and contains bani that is treated as Nirankaar[ bani Nirankaar Hey] Hence 'Sabad guru' is also Nirankaar. 
2.In nutshell LOrd HImself is the Guru.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "Yes, it is in SGGS ji that we get the knowledge that one's life is wasted without Naam."
This is truth, but why some translators are saying that one can purchase true Naam?

Quote "Further wahguru is naam , it is the way I have conceptualised."
Gurdev never said that 'Waheguru' was Naam. Please provide one reference if someone has found it different.

Quote "Please give your answer independently not in the form of line by line analysis."
The true Guru provides One Naam. Everything else becomes clear. 
Strange, many go on reading line after line and ask what is Naam.

This is another translation of the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev available on Internet.

gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Through the Guru, purchase the Divine commodity. The True merchandise is bought with the true Capital.

ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Hail ! unto those, who, through the Perfect Guru, have pruchased the True Name.

I want to ask what kind of bargaining is in progress between the buyer and the seller that a transaction still has not taken place.

**************

Quote from Surinder Jee "HOW COME 'GURDEV' IS DIFFERENT THAN DHAN DHAN SGGS JI, AND NEED A CONFIRMATION TO BE __________??????????"
The true Gurus wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee so that everybody can confirm the same truth experiencing true Naam Simran and progressing with it at consciousness. 
This is but not possible when someone is engaged in activities that Gurdev never wrote and suggested.
Did the true Gurus ever write that their writings are Satgur?

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.

ibnu siqgur hir nwmu n lBeI lK kotI krm kmwau ]2] 
"bin satgur hari naam na labha-ee lakh kotee karam kamaa-o. ||2|| " SGGS Ang 40-15

Strange, many possess the Guru's Writings and feel that they are owning Satgur, engaging them in koti karam around it.

The True Guru and His Words are Truth and the Same.

**************

Quote from Sikh80 Jee "SGGS ji is 'sabad guru' and contains bani that is treated as Nirankaar[ bani Nirankaar Hey] Hence 'Sabad guru' is also Nirankaar."
Have I understood it correctly? SGGS Jee is 'Sabad Guru'. 'Sabad Guru' is nirankaar. So SGGS Jee is Nirankaar.
Nirankaar means without any form or shape (akaar). SGGS Jee but has a form and shape too.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!
> 
> Quote "Yes, it is in SGGS ji that we get the knowledge that one's life is wasted without Naam."
> This is truth, but why some translators are saying that one can purchase true Naam?
> 
> Quote "Further wahguru is naam , it is the way I have conceptualised."
> Gurdev never said that 'Waheguru' was Naam. Please provide one reference if someone has found it different.
> 
> Quote "Please give your answer independently not in the form of line by line analysis."
> The true Guru provides One Naam. Everything else becomes clear.
> Strange, many go on reading line after line and ask what is Naam.
> 
> This is another translation of the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev available on Internet.
> 
> gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Through the Guru, purchase the Divine commodity. The True merchandise is bought with the true Capital.
> 
> ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Hail ! unto those, who, through the Perfect Guru, have pruchased the True Name.
> 
> I want to ask what kind of bargaining is in progress between the buyer and the seller that a transaction still has not taken place.
> 
> **************
> 
> Quote from Surinder Jee "HOW COME 'GURDEV' IS DIFFERENT THAN DHAN DHAN SGGS JI, AND NEED A CONFIRMATION TO BE __________??????????"
> The true Gurus wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee so that everybody can confirm the same truth experiencing true Naam Simran and progressing with it at consciousness.
> This is but not possible when someone is engaged in activities that Gurdev never wrote and suggested.
> Did the true Gurus ever write that their writings are Satgur?
> 
> Please listen. Gurdev is singing.
> 
> ibnu siqgur hir nwmu n lBeI lK kotI krm kmwau ]2]
> "bin satgur hari naam na labha-ee lakh kotee karam kamaa-o. ||2|| " SGGS Ang 40-15
> 
> Strange, many possess the Guru's Writings and feel that they are owning Satgur, engaging them in koti karam around it.
> 
> The True Guru and His Words are Truth and the Same.
> 
> **************
> 
> Quote from Sikh80 Jee "SGGS ji is 'sabad guru' and contains bani that is treated as Nirankaar[ bani Nirankaar Hey] Hence 'Sabad guru' is also Nirankaar."
> Have I understood it correctly? SGGS Jee is 'Sabad Guru'. 'Sabad Guru' is nirankaar. So SGGS Jee is Nirankaar.
> Nirankaar means without any form or shape (akaar). SGGS Jee but has a form and shape too.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 
I have not gone thru. your line by line analysis that does not make sense to me. But 'Nirankaar' is not 'Niraakar' with which you seem to be confused.These are two separate words. It Is 'Niraakar' that means without form.
[FONT=verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Gurmukhi_IIGS] inr;karu​​[/FONT][/FONT]​[FONT=verdana, Arial, Helvetica]nirankaar[/FONT]​[FONT=verdana, Arial, Helvetica]*The Formless One, God*​[/FONT]
Pl. correct the translation given by you. Your post is not very relevant. I am happy without any further clarification as I have ,in the meantime , referred to the meaning in Sahib singh ji. I also observe that the tone of your post does not speak well of Guru sahibs. May be I am wrong.


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## Sikh80

It is better to spend time oneself and arrive at the meaning. It is of no use to post the doubts for clarifications.


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## Sikh80

ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ਭਏ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ॥
सबदु बीचारि भए निरंकारी ॥
Sabaḏ bīcẖār bẖa&shy;ė nirankārī.
Contemplating the Shabad, we become *Nirankaar*i - we come to belong to the Formless Lord God.

[ Nirankaar refers to Formless god- Yes Granth sahib ji has a form. But it is Nirankaar, the formless god.]
 Kindly do not play mental tricks.]


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## Sikh80

I am posting the entire shabad for the benefit of all.


ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
रामकली महला १ ॥
Rāmkalī mehlā 1.
Raamkalee, First Mehl:
ਖਟੁ ਮਟੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥
खटु मटु देही मनु बैरागी ॥
Kẖat mat ḏėhī man bairāgī.
Above the six chakras of the body dwells the detached mind.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਗੀ ॥
सुरति सबदु धुनि अंतरि जागी ॥
Suraṯ sabaḏ ḏẖun anṯar jāgī.
Awareness of the vibration of the Word of the Shabad has been awakened deep within.
ਵਾਜੈ ਅਨਹਦੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
वाजै अनहदु मेरा मनु लीणा ॥
vājai anhaḏ mėrā man līṇā.
The unstruck melody of the sound current resonates and resounds within; my mind is attuned to it.
ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਪਤੀਣਾ ॥੧॥
गुर बचनी सचि नामि पतीणा ॥१॥
Gur bacẖnī sacẖ nām paṯīṇā. ||1||
Through the Guru's Teachings, my faith is confirmed in the True Name. ||1||
ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
प्राणी राम भगति सुखु पाईऐ ॥
Parāṇī rām bẖagaṯ sukẖ pā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
O mortal, through devotion to the Lord, peace is obtained.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि हरि हरि मीठा लागै हरि हरि नामि समाईऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ har har mīṯẖā lāgai har har nām samā&shy;ī&shy;ai. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
The Lord, Har, Har, seems sweet to the Gurmukh, who merges in the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||Pause||
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਿਵਰਜਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥
माइआ मोहु बिवरजि समाए ॥
Mā&shy;i&shy;ā moh bivaraj samā&shy;ė.
Eradicating attachment to Maya, one merges into the Lord.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
सतिगुरु भेटै मेलि मिलाए ॥
Saṯgur bẖėtai mėl milā&shy;ė.
Meeting with the True Guru, we unite in His Union.
ਨਾਮੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕੁ ਹੀਰਾ ॥
नामु रतनु निरमोलकु हीरा ॥
Nām raṯan nirmolak hīrā.
The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is a priceless jewel, a diamond.
ਤਿਤੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਧੀਰਾ ॥੨॥
तितु राता मेरा मनु धीरा ॥२॥
Ŧiṯ rāṯā mėrā man ḏẖīrā. ||2||
Attuned to it, the mind is comforted and encouraged. ||2||
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥
हउमै ममता रोगु न लागै ॥
Ha&shy;umai mamṯā rog na lāgai.
The diseases of egotism and possessiveness do not afflict
ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥
राम भगति जम का भउ भागै ॥
Rām bẖagaṯ jam kā bẖa&shy;o bẖāgai.
one who worships the Lord. Fear of the Messenger of Death runs away.
ਜਮੁ ਜੰਦਾਰੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥
जमु जंदारु न लागै मोहि ॥
Jam janḏār na lāgai mohi.
The Messenger of Death, the enemy of the soul, does not touch me at all.
ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਹਿ ॥੩॥
निरमल नामु रिदै हरि सोहि ॥३॥
Nirmal nām riḏai har sohi. ||3||
The Immaculate Name of the Lord illuminates my heart. ||3||
ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ਭਏ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ॥
सबदु बीचारि भए निरंकारी ॥
Sabaḏ bīcẖār bẖa&shy;ė nirankārī.
Contemplating the Shabad, we become Nirankaari - we come to belong to the Formless Lord God.
ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਾਗੇ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਰਹਾਰੀ ॥
गुरमति जागे दुरमति परहारी ॥
Gurmaṯ jāgė ḏurmaṯ parhārī.
Awakening to the Guru's Teachings, evil-mindedness is taken away.
ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥
अनदिनु जागि रहे लिव लाई ॥
An&shy;ḏin jāg rahė liv lā&shy;ī.
Remaining awake and aware night and day, lovingly focused on the Lord,
ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗਤਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੪॥
जीवन मुकति गति अंतरि पाई ॥४॥
Jīvan mukaṯ gaṯ anṯar pā&shy;ī. ||4||
one becomes Jivan Mukta - liberated while yet alive. He finds this state deep within himself. ||4||
ਅਲਿਪਤ ਗੁਫਾ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ॥
अलिपत गुफा महि रहहि निरारे ॥
Alipaṯ gufā meh raheh nirārė.
In the secluded cave, I remain unattached.
ਤਸਕਰ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
तसकर पंच सबदि संघारे ॥
Ŧaskar pancẖ sabaḏ sangẖārė.
With the Word of the Shabad, I have killed the five thieves.
ਪਰ ਘਰ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਮਨੁ ਡੋਲਾਏ ॥
पर घर जाइ न मनु डोलाए ॥
Par gẖar jā&shy;ė na man dolā&shy;ė.
My mind does not waver or go to the home of any other.
ਸਹਜ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਰਹਉ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੫॥
सहज निरंतरि रहउ समाए ॥५॥
Sahj niranṯar raha&shy;o samā&shy;ė. ||5||
I remain intuitively absorbed deep within. ||5||
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਗਿ ਰਹੇ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ॥
गुरमुखि जागि रहे अउधूता ॥
Gurmukẖ jāg rahė a&shy;uḏẖūṯā.
As Gurmukh, I remain awake and aware, unattached.
ਸਦ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਤਤੁ ਪਰੋਤਾ ॥
सद बैरागी ततु परोता ॥
Saḏ bairāgī ṯaṯ paroṯā.
Forever detached, I am woven into the essence of reality.
ਜਗੁ ਸੂਤਾ ਮਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
जगु सूता मरि आवै जाइ ॥
Jag sūṯā mar āvai jā&shy;ė.
The world is asleep; it dies, and comes and goes in reincarnation.
ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੬॥
बिनु गुर सबद न सोझी पाइ ॥६॥
Bin gur sabaḏ na sojẖī pā&shy;ė. ||6||
Without the Word of the Guru's Shabad, it does not understand. ||6||
ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ॥
अनहद सबदु वजै दिनु राती ॥
Anhaḏ sabaḏ vajai ḏin rāṯī.
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates day and night.
ਅਵਿਗਤ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ ॥
अविगत की गति गुरमुखि जाती ॥
Avigaṯ kī gaṯ gurmukẖ jāṯī.
The Gurmukh knows the state of the eternal, unchanging Lord God.
ਤਉ ਜਾਨੀ ਜਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
तउ जानी जा सबदि पछानी ॥
Ŧa&shy;o jānī jā sabaḏ pacẖẖānī.
When someone realizes the Shabad, then he truly knows.
ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ॥੭॥
एको रवि रहिआ निरबानी ॥७॥
Ėko rav rahi&shy;ā nirbānī. ||7||
The One Lord is permeating and pervading everywhere in Nirvaanaa. ||7||
ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
सुंन समाधि सहजि मनु राता ॥
Sunn samāḏẖ sahj man rāṯā.
My mind is intuitively absorbed in the state of deepest Samaadhi;
ਤਜਿ ਹਉ ਲੋਭਾ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
तजि हउ लोभा एको जाता ॥
Ŧaj ha&shy;o lobẖā ėko jāṯā.
renouncing egotism and greed, I have come to know the One Lord.
ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥
गुर चेले अपना मनु मानिआ ॥
Gur cẖėlė apnā man māni&shy;ā.
When the disciple's mind accepts the Guru,
ਨਾਨਕ ਦੂਜਾ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੮॥੩॥
नानक दूजा मेटि समानिआ ॥८॥३॥
Nānak ḏūjā mėt samāni&shy;ā. ||8||3||
O Nanak, duality is eradicated, and he merges in the Lord. ||8||3||


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## simpy

*Thanks a lot for your comments Veer Balbir Ji,*

*but question still remained unanswered, let me clarify my humble questions once again:*

*WHY DO YOU CONSIDER GURDEV, SGGS, NIRANKAAR, SATGURU -ALL SEPERATE????? ARE THEY DIFFERENT?????????*

*WHY DO YOU NEED CONFIRMATION FOR SSGS TO BE A GIVER OF NAAM AS THE GIVER OF NAAM IS 'GHAT GHAT ANTAR TU HAI VUTHTHAAAAAA' WHAT CONFIRMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR____????* 

*as considering GURDEV as GURDEV and His Bani NON GURDEV is very strange for a spritually advanced individual as you are claiming to be per your such statements: (your words) "*God is ONE. Please experience ONE in anyONE. The word 'or' vanishes then" 

*If 'OR' is vanished then Isn't God and Guru and Nirankaar ARE ALL ONE and only one and present in anyone AND in EVERY ANSH OF THE UNIVERSE as Dhan Dhan Gurdev Sache Patshah is SINGING:*

*jo jo deesay tera roop.....................................*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*Veer Balbir Ji asked:*


> Did the true Gurus ever write that their writings are Satgur?


 

*YES BANI IS GURU, BANI IS SACH, BANI AND SATGURU ARE THE SAME ONE *

*and i hope that Veer Balbir Ji at least this truth is confirmed to you THAT GURBANI IS GURU'S BACHAN, GURBANI IS BANI, GURBANI IS GURU/SATGURU DI AGYA/HUKAM/ORDER, GURBANI IS GURU'S WRITING. AND this is also confirmed to you that THERE IS NO DISTINCTION between GURU and SATGURU, i humbly hope.............*

*and Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jee added other bhagat Bani in there as well, most important thing to consider, ALL IS ONE   AND ONLY ONE    no duality at all in any form possible*

*AND Guru Sahib is SINGING VEER MERE: *
*BANI GURU GURU HAI BANI*

*try listening with love and humility............ *


*.....*
*what other CONFIRMATION one has to look for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*I humbly request you Veer to listen to Honarable Gurubachan:*
*1.*


*iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]*​ 

*Translation : There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate.*​ 
*so there is no distinction ALL IS ONE.*



*2.*

*bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]*​ 

*Translation: The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained. Bani and Guru are treated as same 'ONE'.*​ 

*3.*

*scw siqguru swcI ijsu bwxI Bij CUtih gur srxweI ]*​ 

*Translation : True is the True Guru, and True is the Word of His Bani; in the Guru's Sanctuary, one is saved. GURU and GURBANI same ONE ULTIMATE TRUTH*​ 
*4.*
*gurbwxI iesu jg mih cwnxu krim vsY min Awey ]1]*​ 

*Translation: Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind.*​ 
*5.*​*qyry bcn AnUp Apwr sMqn AwDwr bwxI bIcwrIAY jIau ]*
*Translation: Your Word is Incomparable and Infinite. I contemplate the Word of Your Bani, the Support of the Saints.*

*6.*
*AMqir bwhir qyrI bwxI ]*
*The Word of Your Bani is inside and outside as well.*.

*quDu Awip kQI qY Awip vKwxI ]*
*You Yourself chant it, and You Yourself speak it. *
*guir kihAw sBu eyko eyko Avru n koeI hoiegw jIau ]3]*
*The Guru has said that He is One-All is the One. There shall never be any other. ||3||*

*7.**Bgiq BMfwr gurbwxI lwl ]*
*Gurbani is the jewel, the treasure of devotion.*
*gwvq sunq kmwvq inhwl ]2]*
*Singing, hearing and acting upon it, one is enraptured. *


*and many more GURUBACHAN are endlessly confirmimg that "Bani is SatGuru", NO DOUBTS remain............................... UNLESS ONE THINK AND BELIEVE THAT GURBANI IS NOT GURUBACHAN *


*Tere Bachan Anoop Apaar Santan Adhaar Bani Beechaareeay Jeo.........*
*Bani Nirankaar Hai............*
*Gurmukh Bani Brahm Hai............*





*Another one to contemplate on:*

AMg 669

DnwsrI mhlw 4 ]

syvk isK pUjx siB Awvih siB gwvih hir hir aUqm bwnI ]


gwivAw suixAw iqn kw hir Qwie pwvY ijn siqgur kI AwigAw siq siq kir mwnI ]1]


bolhu BweI hir kIriq hir Bvjl qIriQ ]


hir dir iqn kI aUqm bwq hY sMqhu hir kQw ijn jnhu jwnI ] rhwau ]


Awpy guru cylw hY Awpy Awpy hir pRBu coj ivfwnI ]

jn nwnk Awip imlwey soeI hir imlsI Avr sB iqAwig Ehw hir BwnI ]2]5]11]





*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*Balbir Ji's words:* 


> SGGS Jee but has a form and shape too


 
*Veer Balbir Ji, this is the perception that you have for Dhan Dhan SGGS JI. Sat Guru Sache Paatshan Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not limited to just THE PHYSICAL FORM AND SHAPE...... *

*Dekhan vali nazar nahi hai halay tuhade paas, Waheguru Rakha mere veer, Nirankaar mehar karan*

*Bani nirankaar hai, UNLIMITED Hai..................*

*just like your atma is just not limited to this one lifetime and one lifeform.............i humbly hope that you dont believe that you are just limited to this one life form and one lifetime..............are you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  *

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "But 'Nirankaar' is not 'Niraakar' with which you seem to be confused.These are two separate words. It Is 'Niraakar' that means without form."
For those entangled in differences this is another difference between Nirankaar and niraakaar.
The true Guru enlivens and talks Nirankaar, never using the word Niraakaar in writings, whereas the confused persons are busy differentiating Nirankaar with Niraakaar to display their pride.

Quote "I am happy without any further clarification as I have ,in the meantime , referred to the meaning in Sahib singh ji."
This is the spiritual poverty. People want to know the true Guru. They read translations of what Gurdev is singing.

Quote "I also observe that the tone of your post does not speak well of Guru sahibs. May be I am wrong."
Gurdev is right now also singing in ecstasy.
Please do not worry about translators.

Quote "It is better to spend time oneself and arrive at the meaning."
May I ask how much time one has still to spend through Joonies?

Quote "Yes Granth sahib ji has a form. But it is Nirankaar, the formless god."
Please look at Sikh80 Jee. He is also Nirankaar.

**************

Quote from Surinder Jee "I am posting the entire shabad for the benefit of all."
Thanks for posting the wonderful Sabad from Gurdev, but why have you posted the misleading translation attached with this.

Quote "WHY YOU NEED CONFIRMATION FOR SSGS TO BE A GIVER OF NAAM AS THE GIVER OF NAAM IS 'GHAT GHAT ANTAR TU HAI VUTHTHAAAAAA' WHAT CONFIRMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR____????"
Please provide one reference from the true Gurus where they have said that the Giver of Naam is SGGS and the giver of Naam is 'GHAT GHAT ANTAR TU HAI VUTHTHAAAAAA'. I will be grateful.

Quote "YES BANI IS GURU, BANI IS SACH, BANI AND SATGURU ARE THE SAME ONE."
That is great. Someone seems to have understood it.

Quote "GURBANI IS GURU'S WRITING."
O Really! From where is this inspiration? Please provide one reference from the Gurus.

Thanks for referring the revered Guru's Vaaks about Baanee.
Let me refer one of those.
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ] SGGS Ang 646-8
There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate.

May I ask why people go on reading line after line throughout fourteen hundred and thirty pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee? Has any of the true Gurus mentioned this practice? Is this the technique of contemplating One Sabad? Did Gurdev ever suggest contemplating One Printed or Written Sabad?

Quote "Veer Balbir Ji, this is the perception that you have for Dhan Dhan SGGS JI. Sat Guru Sache Paatshan Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not limited to just THE PHYSICAL FORM AND SHAPE......"
I agree. Nothing is limited to just the physical form and shape.

**************

Why has not someone provided any reference from the true Gurus I have requested? 


Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*Our Honrable Veer Balbir Ji Writes:*



> Gurdev is right now also singing in ecstasy.


 
*i wonder veer Balbir Ji can hear Dhan Dhan Gurdev in ecstasy!!!!!!!!!*

*but veer Balbir cannot see Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Placed in there........*


*but he cannot see that there is no difference between himself, sikh80 and Dhan Dhan Nirankaar AT THAT POINT.........*

*but he cannot see the the giver of that voice and giver of the naam is still a bujharat for him.....*



*if your listening is that bright mere veer that you hear Gurdev singing in ecstasy: howcome you got confused with WHO POSTED WHAT from the above posts.......radio signal got interrupted.... so sad.....*


*WHAT IS THE EXPLANATION OF YOUR ECSTASY MERE PYARE VEER????????*



*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Please do not deviate from the topic and let all know if the true Gurus ever wrote that their writings were Satgur.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the collection of Hymns from the true Gurus, Bhagats, Saints, Bhatts and many enlightened persons.
Please explain. Whose Baanee Guru Amar Das Jee is mentioning in this Vaak?
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]
"ikka baanee iku guru iko sabadu veechaari." SGGS Ang 646-8

Also, please say something according to your understanding about these wonderful Vaaks from Guru Naanak Dev Jee.

gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ]
"gurmukhi vasatu vaysaahee-ai sachu vakharu sachu raasi."

ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ]
"jinee sachu vananji-aa gur pooray saabaasi." SGGS Ang 18-10

Perhaps someone can also explain why the translators have translated the word vaysaahee-ai purchase. Strange, I never heard any punjabi using this word when he or she went for shopping.

**************

Please ponder what Bhagat Kabeer Jee is singing about those who spend their life reading and preach others to read repeatedly.

byd purwn pVy kw ikAw gunu Kr cMdn js Bwrw ]
"bayd puraan parhay kaa ki-aa gunu khar chandan jas bhaaraa.

rwm nwm kI giq nhI jwnI kYsy auqris pwrw ]1]
"raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee kaisay utras paaraa." SGGS Ang 1103-1 


Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*oh yes  who is deviating from the topic:  honrable yourself or others!!!!!!!*

*you are unable to answer all my very important questions, mere veer*

*waheguru Rakha*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Sikh80

so bUJY ijsu Awip buJwiesI ijsu siqguru purKu pRBu saulw ] (1315-13, kwnVw, mÚ 4)
Those whom the Lord inspires to understand, understand; the True Guru, God, the Primal Being, is pleased with them.

One may kindly check if the translation is correct or the translator has taken liberty of adding some words. Let this thread continue  as it is.


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## International Akaali

Balbir Singh Wrote:

"May I ask why people go on reading line after line throughout fourteen hundred and thirty pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee? Has any of the true Gurus mentioned this practice? Is this the technique of contemplating One Sabad? Did Gurdev ever suggest contemplating One Printed or Written Sabad?"

Balbir ji then what are you doing wasting your time? Why do you keep going on and on presenting thuks from gurus bani when you have just been quoted as saying it is a waste of time to reading 1430 pages of guru granth sahib ji and contemplating it to ones life. I guess guru sahib just waisted his time according to you? Im sorry but this is a direct attack on gurbani and it just make me sick me reading that. 

First of all you hijacked the thread, and your cult leader of a twisted mindset at: Say Sat Sri Akal - Live with Truth, achieve all Treasures and merge in Eternity 

I am at the end of the topic and i dont even know where the topic has gone too. If Sikh80 can kindly repost the question in another thread or repost your your intial question it can be kindly appreciated

Regards


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## Sikh80

Welcome sir once again,
Thanks for your gracious offer..I shall repost the question in some new post.Let this thread be over.
You are the right person, it seems , for Gurbani related queries.

Thanks and regards


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## simpy

*International akaali Ji and Sikh80 ji for people like Balbir Ji Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib Sache Patshah De Paavan Sweet Bachan:*​ 
*eyqY jil vrsdY iqK mrih Bwg iqnw ky nwih ]*​*aitay jal barkhday tikh maray bhaag tina ke naahe*


*and Balbir veer's signal dies when the whole universe sings this as well as the following and much more.......*​ 
*bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]*​*Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani.......*


*we cannot expect them to understand Gurbani, they simply choose not to hear it allalong, the question of understanding does not even exist in their case.*​ 

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*​


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## Sikh80

mMdw iks no AwKIAY jW iqsu ibnu koeI nwih ]75] (1381-17, slok, syK PrId jI)
Whom can we call bad? There is none without Him. ||75||


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and International Akaali Jee!

Quote "Balbir ji then what are you doing wasting your time?"
My posts are not for stone minded Baabaas, deep rooted in ignorance.

Quote "Why do you keep going on and on presenting thuks from gurus bani when you have just been quoted as saying it is a waste of time to reading 1430 pages of guru granth sahib ji and contemplating it to ones life."
This is your mind and its analysis. Please be sure your mind is not leading and wasting your precious life.

Quote "I guess guru sahib just waisted his time according to you?"
This is your earning and understanding.
The true Gurus are giving Updesh today also. Please do not waste life reading. Strange, many are reading it repeatedly and continue doing so.
The true Sikh blessed with Naam Simran does not go on reading repeatedly the revered Guru's Message 'simrao simari simari sukhu paavao', for example. He does Naam Simran and receives Sukh.  

The true Guru wrote once this Vaak.
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]
"ikka baanee iku guru iko sabadu veechaari." SGGS Ang 646-8

I have heard some have got this written message from Gurdev engraved on gold or silver metal plates. Some others have studded it with precious stones. Some jewelers are planning to make pendants of it but their women are more for the ear tops. Educational theorists are suggesting layouts of children books where to print this Guru's Message. Some are learning to use weapons in case somebody raises a question and insults them showing curiosity in the original Guru's Message.
Their life is engaged now with stereotyped anayk Sabad, anayk Gurus and anayk Baanees.
It seems God is ready again for Avtaar as the true Guru.

Quote "Im sorry but this is a direct attack on gurbani and it just make me sick me reading that."
It is not a surprise. By reading Gurdev's Message repeatedly but not experiencing it and acting on it one can become sick.
The true Sikh is one who meditates on Hari Naam received with God's Grace through the Satguru, but not reading repeatedly the publications of Chatur Singh and Sujaan Singh.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*ijnw gurbwxI min BweIAw AMimRiq Cik Cky ]*

*The whole Universe is singing Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan De Paavan Bachan*
*gurbwxI gwvh BweI ]*
*Eh sPl sdw suKdweI ]*


*mY siqgur syqI iprhVI ikau gur ibnu jIvw mwau ]*
*Translation :I am so much in love with my True Guru! How could I even live without the Guru, O my mother?*

*mY gurbwxI AwDwru hY gurbwxI lwig rhwau ]8]*
*Translation: I have the Support of the Word of the Guru's Bani. Attached to Gurbani, I survive. ||8||*

*AMimRq bwxI hir hir qyrI ]*
*The Word of Your Bani, Lord, is Ambrosial Nectar.*

*suix suix hovY prm giq myrI ]*
*Hearing it again and again, I am elevated to the supreme heights.*

*jlin buJI sIqlu hoie mnUAw siqgur kw drsnu pwey jIau ]1]*
*The burning within me has been extinguished, and my mind has been cooled and soothed, by the Blessed Vision of the True Guru. ||1||*


*gurmuiK AMimRq bwxI bolih sB Awqm rwmu pCwxI ]*
*Translation: The Gurmukhs speak the Ambrosial Bani; they recognize the Lord, the Supreme Soul in all.*


*eyko syvin eyku ArwDih gurmuiK AkQ khwxI ]6]*
*Translation: They serve the One; they worship and adore the One. The Gurmukhs speak the Unspoken Speech. ||6||*




*but some people's signal goes down this is also Guru's Kirpa.....*
*they simply cannot hear the above with Waheguru's Grace...........*

*eyqY jil vrsdY iqK mrih Bwg iqnw ky nwih ]*​*aitay jal barkhday tikh maray bhaag tina ke naahe*
*Waheguru Rakha*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*THIS IS VERY FUNNY WHEN ONE SAYS THAT THEY DO NAAM SIMRAM BUT THEY ARE AGAINST READING GURBANI.........*

*THIS PROVES THAT THEY DONT KNOW WHAT IS WHAT...................*


*no wonder their signal goes down so often*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Sikh80

1.Bani/Sachi Bani
siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ] (308-5, gauVI, mÚ 4)
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.

2. Naam thru. Gurbani
gur kI bwxI nwim vjwey ] (362-11, Awsw, mÚ 3)
Through the Word of the Guru's Bani, the Naam resounds;

3. Remain in Self
inrml bwxI inj Gir vwsw ] (362-18, Awsw, mÚ 3)
Through the Immaculate Bani of the Word, the mortal dwells within the home of his own inner self.

nwnk haumY mwry sdw audwsw ]4]6]45] (362-19, Awsw, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, he conquers his ego, and remains forever detached.

4.Kirtan leads to Naam
krxI kIriq nwmu vsweI ] (363-3, Awsw, mÚ 3)
Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, the Naam abides within the mind.

5. Advantages Of Bani
ihrdY suix suix min AMimRqu BwieAw ] (366-11, Awsw, mÚ 4)
Constantly listening to the Ambrosial Gurbani in the heart, it becomes pleasing to the mind.
 gurbwxI hir AlKu lKwieAw ]1] (366-12, Awsw, mÚ 4)
Through Gurbani, the Incomprehensible Lord is comprehended. ||1||

6. Utter Praises of Lord
eyko riv rihAw Gt AMqir muiK bolhu gur AMimRq bYnw ]1] rhwau ] (366-12, Awsw, mÚ 4)
The One Lord is pervading and permeating deep within the heart; with your mouth, recite the Ambrosial Hymns of the Guru. ||1||Pause||
7.
Bgiq BMfwr gurbwxI lwl ] (376-14, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Gurbani is the jewel, the treasure of devotion.
 gwvq sunq kmwvq inhwl ]2] (376-15, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Singing, hearing and acting upon it, one is enraptured. ||2||

8.Love Gurbani
gur kI bwxI isau rMgu lwie ] (387-13, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Embrace love for the Word of the Guru's Bani.

9.Keertan
hir kIrqnu AwDwru inhclu eyhu Dnuo ]2] (398-14, Awsw, mÚ 5)
The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my Support; this wealth is everlasting. ||2||

10. Bani is neactar
ijnw gurbwxI min BweIAw AMimRiq Cik Cky ] (449-14, Awsw, mÚ 4)
Those whose minds are pleased with the Word of the Guru's Bani, drink in the Ambrosial Nectar again and again.

11. Nanak chants the Glorious Words of the Guru's Bani
jnu nwnku boly gux bwxI gurbwxI hir nwim smwieAw ]4]5] (494-5, gUjrI, mÚ 4)
Servant Nanak chants the Glorious Words of the Guru's Bani; through them, one is absorbed into the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||4||5||

12.Bani Nirankaar

vwhu vwhu bwxI inrMkwr hY iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ] (515-17, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.

13.True is Mantra

scu mMqRü qumwrw AMimRq bwxI ] (562-16, vfhMsu, mÚ 5)
True is Your Mantra, Ambrosial is the Bani of Your Word.

14. True is Bani.
scI bwxI scu Duin scu sbdu vIcwrw ] (564-18, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
True is the Bani of His Word, and True is the melody; True is contemplative meditation on the Word of the Shabad.

15. 
gur pUry kI bwxI jip Andu krhu inq pRwxI ]1] (616-10, soriT, mÚ 5)
Chant the Word of the Perfect Guru's Bani, and be ever in bliss, O mortal. ||1||


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
Quote " . . . for people like Balbir Ji Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib Sache Patshah De Paavan Sweet Bachan:"
eyqY jil vrsdY iqK mrih Bwg iqnw ky nwih ]
aitay jal barkhday tikh maray bhaag tina ke naahe.  sggs ang 1282-8

This is right. Gurdev in His Presence gave this Updes directly to Balbir Singh.
God has but not instructed him to search and confirm a name in the list of 'tina'.

Quote "and Balbir veer's signal dies when the whole universe sings this as well as the following and much more......."
All are God's Signals. All are singing Him. What are ignorant wishing to die?

Strange, many go on reading.
bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]
Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani....... sggs ang 982-10
Their all activities are but concerned with this.
The printed matter is Guru. The Guru is the printed one. All Amrits are in prints.

Quote "we cannot expect them to understand Gurbani, they simply choose not to hear it allalong, the question of understanding does not even exist in their case."
Yes Teacher Jee, please do not worry to teach God your understanding as God's Hukam is active in all.

Some feel they are owning Baanee just because they are possessing the printed copy of Guru's writings in exchange of 'Bhetaa'. They seem successful drama characters who have remembered his dialogues by heart. In true spiritual life they seem unselected for a role.

**************

Please say something about Revered Guru's Vaaks mentioned in the beginning of this thread and let all know how great God's Wisdom is.


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy

*Gur Kay Grihi Sevaku Jo Rahey*

*Jo Sevak Guru Ke Gar Mein Rehta Hai*

*Gur Ki Aagia Man Mahi Sahey*

*Aur Guru Ka Hukum Man Mein Basata Hai*

*Aapas Kau Kari Kachhu Na Janavey*

*Jo Swayam Ko Kuch Bhi Nahi Jatlaata*

*Hari Hari Naamu Ridey Sad Dhiaavey*

*Hriday Mein Sada Hari Smaran Karta Hai*

*Manu Bechey Satgur Kay Paasi*

*Jo Apna Man Satya Guru Ke Paas Bechta Hai*

*Tisu Sevak Ke Kaaraj Raasi*

*Us Sevak Ke Sab Kaam Theek Hotey Hai*

*Seva Karat Hoi Nihakaami*

*Jo Seva Karkey Kehta Hai Ki Mein Kuch Nahi Kiya*

*Tis Kau Hoat Parapati Suaami*

*Usey Maalik Mil Jaata Hai*

*Apni Kripa Jisu Aapi Karei*

*Jis Par Vah Apni Kripa Karta Hai*

*Nanak So Sevaku Gur Ki Mati Lei----2*

*Hey Nanak! Vah Sevak Guru Ki Mat Leta Hai*

*I need comments on the interpretations written in red.*
*(Source : Sukhmani Sahib : Chapter 18)*​


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Hearty thanks Sikh80 Jee for the wonderful great Vaaks from the reverend Gurus.

Let us have Satsang with the first Vaak referred.

siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ] (308-5, gauVI, mÚ 4)
"satgur kee baanee sati sati kar jaanhu gur sikhahu hari kartaa aapi muhahu kadhaa-ay." SGGS Ang 308-5.
True Gur's speech is truth. Know truth by doing. Learn the Gur. Hari, the Doer Himself, through the mouth expresses.

I feel the preachers have mislead Sikhs to such extend that they are searching now Truth coming out of the printing machines.
Strange, some believe Truth of Hari is flowing through the printing industry as combination of  mostly inorganic stable paper and chemical ink.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

vwhu vwhu bwxI inrMkwr hY iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ] (515-17, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.


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## Sikh80

gur pUry kI bwxI jip Andu krhu inq pRwxI ]1] (616-10, soriT, mÚ 5)
Chant the Word of the Perfect Guru's Bani, and be ever in bliss, O mortal. ||1||


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## Sikh80

rUVI bwxIhir pwieAw gur sbdI bIcwir ] (936-19, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
Through the beautiful Word of the Guru's Bani, the Lord is obtained; contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad.


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## Sikh80

ieh bwxI mhw purK kI inj Gir vwsw hoie ]40] (935-13, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
This is the Bani of the Supreme Being; through it, one dwells within the home of his inner being. ||40||


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## Sikh80

Balbir ji,
Now You may post 4 Vaaks .I shall wait for some time.


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## Sikh80

bwxI ibrlau bIcwrsI jy ko gurmuiK hoie ] (935-12, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
How rare are those who contemplate the Word of the Guru's Bani; they become Gurmukh.


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## Sikh80

dUK rog sMqwp auqry suxI scI bwxI ] (922-18, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
Pain, illness and suffering have departed, listening to the True Bani.


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## Sikh80

·       The Bani, the Word of the humble devotee is the most sublime and exalted; it prevails throughout the ages. ||20||[909-19]
·       One who is committed to this Bani is emancipated, and through the Shabad, merges in Truth. ||21||


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## Sikh80

24.Bani Of Lord
sPl drsu qyrw pwrbRhmgux iniD qyrI bwxI ] (808-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Fruitful is the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, O Supreme Lord God. The Word of Your Bani is the treasure of virtue.

25. Slave lives by Bani
suix suix jIvY dwsu qum@ bwxI jn AwKI ] (814-1, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Your slave lives by hearing, hearing the Word of Your Bani, chanted by Your humble servant.


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## Sikh80

Bani Of SGGS ji is priceless, it cannot be tagged as it is the bani of Nirankaar the Lord itself. There is no involvement of preacher .Lord HIMSELF has said this. So, let us live in HIS will and Hukum.
Good Night.


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## Sikh80

It was today morning [5-12-07]that the katha of Gyani Maskeen ji was relayed . In his ‘parvachan’ he stated many things but I am quoting only that is relevant to the thread.

After quoting many ‘tuks’ from SGS ji he made an observation that entire Bani is ‘Naam’ as it is the word of GOD. One can,therefore, concentrate on the recitation of the bani. It can be done in two ways:


Either by reciting the Bani like Ajapa jap.
Or By reading the bani aloud so that it is heard by the reader.
*OR *

In case it is found difficult then one should do ‘Naam jaap’/simran/meditation on the word ‘waheguru’. He had stated clearly that without this there is no escape of Sikh. One should devote as much time as possible as life is not very predictable.
I am giving below some ‘tuks’ from Granth sahib ji in this regard:



GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.[308-5]
Through the Word of the Guru's Bani, the Naam resounds[362-11]
Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, the Naam abides within the mind.[363-3]
Constantly listening to the Ambrosial Gurbani in the heart, it becomes pleasing to the mind.[366-11]
Through Gurbani, the Incomprehensible Lord is comprehended[366-12] 
There are many sweet quotes from the Granth Sahib ji. 


The One Lord is pervading and permeating deep within the heart; with your mouth, recite the Ambrosial Hymns of the Guru.[366-12]
Gurbani is the jewel, the treasure of devotion.[376-14]
Singing, hearing and acting upon it, one is enraptured.[376-15]
Embrace love for the Word of the Guru's Bani.[387-13]
The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my Support; this wealth is everlasting.[398-14]|
Those whose minds are pleased with the Word of the Guru's Bani, drink in the Ambrosial Nectar again and again.[449-14]
Servant Nanak chants the Glorious Words of the Guru's Bani; through them, one is absorbed into the Naam, the Name of the Lord. [494-4]

Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.[515-17]

[ Dear Balbir ji,
I am posting it here as well.This was already posted in other thread as well.]


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and the copy and pasting champion Sikh80 Jee!

Your hard work needs a reward.

This is the second true Vaak from the reverend Guru as referred  in the post #37 of this thread.
gur kI bwxI nwim vjwey ] (11, Awsw, gurU Amr dws)
"gur kee baanee naam vajaa-ay." SGGS Ang 362-11.
The technique of Speech makes the sound of Naam.

I am not sure if Guru Amar Daas Jee is mentioning here the sound produced by the Guru made of printed paper.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

jyvfu BwvY qyvfu hoie ] (6-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
He is as Great as He wishes to be.
 nwnk jwxY swcw soie ] (6-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, the True Lord knows.
 jy ko AwKY boluivgwVu ] (6-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
If anyone presumes to describe God,
 qw ilKIAY isir gwvwrw gwvwru ]26] (6-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||


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## Sikh80

jb qy srin qumwrI Awey qb qy doK gey ]1] rhwau ] (829-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
When I came to Your Sanctuary, my sins vanished. ||1||Pause||
 qij AiBmwnu Aru icMq ibrwnI swDh srn pey ] (829-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Renouncing egotistical pride and other anxieties, I have sought the Sanctuary of the Holy Saints.
 jip jip nwmu qum@wro pRIqm qn qy rog Key ]1] (829-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Chanting, meditating on Your Name, O my Beloved, disease is eradicated from my body. ||1||
 mhw mugD Ajwn AigAwnI rwKy Dwir dey ] (829-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Even utterly foolish, ignorant and thoughtless persons have been saved by the Kind Lord.


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## Sikh80

SGGS Page 189 ​*With my hands I do His work; with my tongue I sing His Glorious Praises.*​*With my feet, I walk on the Path of my Lord and Master. ((1)) 
It is a good time, when I remember Him in meditation. 
Meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, I cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ((1)(Pause)) 
With your eyes, behold the Blessed Vision of the Saints. 
Record the Immortal Lord God within your mind. ((2)) 
Listen to the Kirtan of His Praises, at the Feet of the Holy. 
Your fears of birth and death shall depart. ((3))
Enshrine the Lotus Feet of your Lord and Master within your heart. 
Thus this human life, so difficult to obtain, shall be redeemed. ((4)(51)(120)) *​


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

This is another reference of great Guru's Vaak through your post #42 in this thread.

gur pUry kI bwxI jip Andu krhu inq pRwxI ]1] (616-10, soriT, mÚ 5)
"gur pooray kee baanee japi anadu karahu nit praanee."
Complete Gur's Baanee, japping it do Anad regularly, person.

The present worldly business (Dhandhaa) of Sikhism started flourishing when the apprehender of true Naam Simran went for udaasee. The command fell in the hands of greedy politicians. They started replacing the Guru's words in their explanations.
Thank God they were but not able to replace words in the writings of the true Gurus.

Replacing the word speech (Baanee) with the printed matter is one of such examples.

Also, explaining this wonderful Vaak from Gurdev the preachers stress that one should read, learn by heart and repeat the printed matter. This is what they call Japu.

One who is blessed with true Japu experiences the true Guru's words, as they have written exactly.
Others read, learn it by heart and repeat those like in past incarnations and go on waiting for GODO to appear one day.

Please ponder. The reverend Gurus never say that Japu is reading and repeating the printed message.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*Dear Veer Balbir Ji, thankyou much for being the live example for :*

*eyqY jil vrsdY iqK mrih Bwg iqnw ky nwih ]*
eaethai jal varasadhai thikh marehi bhag thina kae nahi ||


*your statements:*



> Strange, many are reading it repeatedly and continue doing so.


 


> I have heard some have got this written message from Gurdev engraved on gold or silver metal plates. Some others have studded it with precious stones. Some jewelers are planning to make pendants of it but their women are more for the ear tops. Educational theorists are suggesting layouts of children books where to print this Guru's Message. Some are learning to use weapons in case somebody raises a question and insults them showing curiosity in the original Guru's Message.
> Their life is engaged now with stereotyped anayk Sabad, anayk Gurus and anayk Baanees.
> It seems God is ready again for Avtaar as the true Guru.


 


> By reading Gurdev's Message repeatedly but not experiencing it and acting on it one can become sick.


 
*ARE YOU ACTING ON IT??????? **by giving statements like* 


> God's Hukam is active in all.


 
*alongwith*



> The true Gurus are giving Updesh today also. Please do not waste life reading. Strange, many are reading it repeatedly and continue doing so.


 
*AND DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU SAHIB SACHE PAATSHAH IS SAYING:*

*pIaU dwdy kw Koil ifTw Kjwnw ]*
*qw myrY min BieAw inDwnw ]1]*
*rqn lwl jw kw kCU n molu ] Bry BMfwr AKUt Aqol ]2]*
*Kwvih Krcih ril imil BweI ]*
*qoit n AwvY vDdo jweI ]3]*


*your words:*


> Gurdev in His Presence gave this Updes directly to Balbir Singh.


*I humbly ask you:*
*AND BTW WHICH PLACE IS WITHOUT GURDEV's PRESENCE, VEER BALBIR JI?????? *
*AND WHO IS WITHOUT GURDEV?????? *
*WHO IS WITHOUT GURRDEV'S UPDES... WHO IS?????? KOI HAI or KOI SEE OR KOI HOEGA????????* 


*This reminds me of the fact:*


*jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ]*
*jo brehamanddae soee pinddae jo khojai so paavai ||*
The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks Him, finds Him there.

*this must be very hard truth for those to digest who are SO SCARED of Dhan Dhan Gurbani being circulated in ALL FORMS ALL OVER THE WORLD IN EVERY LANGUAGE.....*

*Dhan Dhan Sache Patshah has a COPY of BRAHMAND in everyone(and it is like three dimentional) and is UPDATING all the time................ WAHEGURU'S COURT FOLLOW- NO GOD'S CHILD LEFT BEHIND THEORY............................everybody has all those copies in all those forms, unlimited count, THIS ULTIMATE TRUTH must be very painful for those who find ways to propagate against its CIRCULATION as they do know(they agree in public or not) BUT THIS IS THE ONLY FACT THAT SCARE THEM) as they know:*

*jh jh dyKw qh rihAw smweI ]*
_jah jah daykhaa tah rahi-aa samaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o. _
[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading. ||1||Pause||[/FONT]

*jh dyKau qh riv rhy rKu rwKnhwrw ]*
jeh dh*ae*kho theh s*aa*r*i*gap*aa*n ||2||_Wherever I look, I see the Lord of the World. ||2||_

*vwhu vwhu bwxI inrMkwr hY iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ]*
*vwhu vwhu Agm AQwhu hY vwhu vwhu scw soie ]*
*vwhu vwhu vyprvwhu hY vwhu vwhu kry su hoie ]*
*vwhu vwhu AMimRq nwmu hY gurmuiK pwvY koie ]*
*vwhu vwhu krmI pweIAY Awip dieAw kir dyie ]*
*nwnk vwhu vwhu gurmuiK pweIAY Anidnu nwmu leyie ]*


*the fact that Bani is getting known ALL AROUND scares them that's all*

*Sikh80 Ji, see Waheguru Ji taught us something in this thread........ no effort goes fruitless...............................*



*because if even a coward hear Guru's Bachan can have chances to be saved , HOW CAN BANI HATERS TOLERATE THIS TRUTH, NO WAY.........*



*another question for you Balbir Veer, this time technical....*

*Honrable yourself is against copy paste and hard paper copies......... WHEN BANI APPEARS IN YOUR POSTS:*
*WHAT TECHNIQUE YOU ARE USING??? PLEASE SHARE, COMPUTER GEEKS WILL BE VERY GLAD TO KNOW ABOUT THIS SECTRET, thanks in advance.........*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*Dhan ho Balbir Ji Dhan ho:*

*your statement:*


> The true Sikh blessed with Naam Simran does not go on reading repeatedly the revered Guru's Message


 
*and *



> Gurdev is singing


 
*this one is the best one..............*


*Guru is singing and people who are living in 'Guru being recognized by all' scare, are telling others(after recognizing that Guru 'IS' singing) dont read, dont listen, dont sing, dont copy, basically DONT LOOK, .................... and at the same time talking and preaching about the WAYS TO merge into the same GURU(and claiming that their's is the ONLY way)................. merging but stop listening and reading ............................... what kind of merger is that!!!!!!!!!!!! Guru is singing, how can one stop that, how can, it is unstopable..............................................................................how two opposites can be there at the same time!!!!!!! Guru is singing but Gurmukh dont sing, HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE..........IN WHAT FORM...........!!!!!!!!*



*Awpy guru cylw hY Awpy Awpy dsy* *Gwtu ]*

*Awpy guru cylw hY Awpy Awpy hir pRBu coj ivfwnI ]*



*AND DHAN DHAN GURU SAHIB SACHE PAATSHAH IS SINGING: *
*GURBANI GAVO BHAI.............................................*
*khavo kharcho...................................*




*DEAR FORUM LEADERS please delete anything that you think inappropreate under forum rules from me neech's above two posts: as i been going on and on this time CAREFREE MINDED, baee guru di gal hai, it is hard for guru lovers to STOP...............................*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*Frum Leaders thanks a lot for adding translation and english version for Gurbani...*

*thanks*


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## Astroboy

click here > Waho Waho Bani Nirankar Hai


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## spnadmin

Surinder ji,

A whole 5 minutes! I was laughing, I was speechless. Both good results from reading your entirely logical response. Sometimes the Truth hurts. And sometimes the Truth makes us smile.


----------



## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Quote "AND DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU SAHIB SACHE PAATSHAH IS SAYING".
May I ask why suddenly the word GRANTH is missing in your writings?

Quote "Honrable yourself is against copy paste and hard paper copies......... WHEN BANI APPEARS IN YOUR POSTS:
WHAT TECHNIQUE YOU ARE USING??? PLEASE SHARE, COMPUTER GEEKS WILL BE VERY GLAD TO KNOW ABOUT THIS SECTRET, 
thanks in advance........."
Please do not envy Sikh80 Jee. You may not surpass him by copying and pasting translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee as you are now careful not adding those in your post. All miss but your understanding of the true Guru's Vaaks.
Somebody complained why Bihaarees working in printing press are not so knowledgeable as Sikh Pandits who never shared in the creation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
I am also surprised why copy and pasting masters are asking strange questions.

**************

In my experience, the true Guru's message is "come to know true Simran," not copy and printing their message in a big number.

**************

Please do not try to get rid of your big earnings of curses through your posts. True Naam Simran is the best way for it.

**************

Dear Namjap Jee, Baanee is Nirankaar. That is true.
I do not know if the true Gurus have ever said that printed matter is also Nirankaar. 


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin

Balbir ji

How do you include bani in posts if you don't copy and paste?


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## Astroboy

Koye Bole Ram Ram
Koye Khudaye
...................
..................
_"Some people call you Ram, others call You Khudaa. Some serve Gosain, some Allah. O Merciful Creator and Doer, have mercy upon me. Some bathe at holy places and others go for hujj. Some do pooja, others bow their heads. Some read the Vedas, others the Books. Some wear blue, others white. Some call themselves Muslims, others Hindus. Some seek bahisht, some suarg. O Nanak, say; whosoever has understood the Hukam (Divine order), has learnt the secret of God, the Master." [1, page 885] _


What is happening in this debate according to my understanding :-

Balbir Singh Ji has many times pointed out that many sikhs considers the book (Granth) - the printed pages (not the wisdom therein) as the Guru. Therefore it is idol worship.

Balbir Singh Ji also has countless times mentioned that the message (wisdom) imparted by the Gurus - as recorded in the Granth Sahib - is not Bani - but a reference made to the real Bani.
(He has received opposing comments).

Balbir Singh Ji has further championed his cause by saying that Gurmantar is not Waheguru - but he never mentions whether the Gurmantar is a word or not. He also says that there is no reference of Waheguru to be the Gurmantar by all the 10 Gurus during their lifetime.

Balbir Singh Ji has at times said that without the Satguru you can never be given the Naam - that leads to Mukti (Liberation). He supports his claims with numerous verses from the Granth Sahib. 
(He has received loudly voiced opposition)

Summarized by Santokh Singh
(without fear no favor)


----------



## simpy

*Veer Balbir Ji de Bachan:*



> I do not know if the true Gurus have ever said that printed matter is also Nirankaar.


 
*Veer Balbir Ji, *

*HOW COME PRINTER MATTER IS NOT NIRANKAAR???---- WHERE ANY SANT MAHATMA GURU BHAGAT is singing this???????*




*you are also agreeing "*I dont know if".....* this is strange....doubting yourself...............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*



*WHEN*
*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji De Panna # 724 *

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Sache Patshah is singing writing and conveying:*

*quDu ibnu dUjw nwhI koie ]*


*how printer is some second entity for a Gurbhagat??????*

*your statement:*


> *In my experience, the true Guru's message is "come to know true Simran," not copy and printing their message in a big number.*


 

*tells that you are posing to be an expert of true simran..................... this is what happen when people follow Gurbani haters............... they dont know what BANI is, Bani's precious message is, AND ARE UNABLE TO SEE THE ALL PERVADING *

*and Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib Sache Paatshah is singing :*

*Awpy mCulI Awpy jwlw ]*
*Awpy gaU Awpy rKvwlw ]*
*khqw bkqw suxqw soeI Awpy bxq bxweI hy ]*

*Awpy jlu Qlu swgru srvru ]*

*kyqy qyry rUp rMg kyqy jwiq Ajwiq ]*

*vrn rUp vrqih sB qyry ]*

*inrgunu Awip srgunu BI EhI ]*
*klw Dwir ijin sglI mohI ]*
*Apny cirq pRiB Awip bnwey ]*
*ApunI kImiq Awpy pwey ]*
*hir ibnu dUjw nwhI koie ]*
*srb inrMqir eyko soie ]*
*Eiq poiq rivAw rUp rMg ]*
*Bey pRgws swD kY sMg ]*
*ric rcnw ApnI kl DwrI ]*
*Aink bwr nwnk bilhwrI ]*


*MERE VEER WHO ELSE AND WHAT ELSE IS THERE WITHOUT WAHEGURU/GURU/PARMATMA////?????..................*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Astroboy

A philosophic approach to Gurudwara activities (Daily Life)
· In Sikh religion, going regularly to Gurudwara is very important. 
· In the Gurudwara, we do many activities. 
· But what is the hidden philosophic meaning behind these activities? 
· By understanding the deeper meaning, we can perform these activities with greater commitment.

Bowing the head: 
· To stop using our incorrect mind; and to use the wisdom of our Gurus. 
· Also, to surrender ourselves to the will of Guru. 
· 'Gur ki mat tu le iyanne'. (Sukmani sahib) 
· 'Aisi mat deeje mere thaakur, sadaa, sadaa tudh dhiyaai'. (673). 
· 'Tu samrath vadaa, meri mat thodi raam'. (547). 

[FONT=Book Antiqua,Times New Roman]
[*]‘Gun gaavat, teri utraes mael’ – Sukhmani Sahib.
[*]‘Wahu Wahu kartiyaa, mann nirmal hove; haume vitcho jae’ (SGGS: 515).
[*]‘Wahu Wahu kartiyaa prabhu paiyeea’ (SGGS: 514).

‘Wahu Wahu gur-sikh jo nit kare; so man chindiya phal payee’ (SGGS: 515).
[/FONT]


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## Sikh80

I had started the thread for the clarification and meaning of two lines. I have yet to receive the answer.


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## Astroboy

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *DEAR FORUM LEADERS please delete anything that you think inappropreate under forum rules from me neech's above two posts: as i been going on and on this time CAREFREE MINDED, baee guru di gal hai, it is hard for guru lovers to STOP...............................*
> 
> *humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


 
Surinder Ji,
It is my duty to remind you of personal attacks against fellow members.


Santokh Singh


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## International Akaali

Sikh80 said:


> gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.
> ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ] (18-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.
> 
> -
> The above lines refer to TRUE Merchandise and Genuine Article, TRUE Capital. What are these things that Guru Sahibaan are pointing at.?
> 
> Das Shall be grateful as ever for an explanation.


 
The answer to this question as per my understanding is that naam is the sacha sauda. The real purchase is only made through the one and only akaal. All other purchases are false and do not have any merit. The only purchase which is true is naam. And through this purchasse of naam can only be attainted through the guru. 

this is the understanding i got from these two lines. However Veerji/Bhanjee whenever we look at a specific thuks its best to look at the entire shabad and to highlight those that you have questions on. As sometimes it is difficult to base the understanding off 2 lines because you need the entire shabad to get the bhav aarth.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from International Akaali Jee "The real purchase is only made through the one and only akaal."
May I ask who is the seller and what God needs to purchase?

Quote "The only purchase which is true is naam."
Is the true Sikh a buyer who has purchased Naam?

Quote "And through this purchasse of naam can only be attainted through the guru."
Please guide all. In which Mall is the Guru's shop?

Quote "this is the understanding i got from these two lines. However Veerji/Bhanjee whenever we look at a specific thuks its best to look at the entire shabad and to highlight those that you have questions on. As sometimes it is difficult to base the understanding off 2 lines because you need the entire shabad to get the bhav aarth."
In my experience, God is highly appreciating each word of the Guru's Vaak. One who receives ONE Sabad from the true Guru understands not only His Vaak but His existence too.


Balbir Singh


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## International Akaali

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Quote from International Akaali Jee "The real purchase is only made through the one and only akaal."
> May I ask who is the seller and what God needs to purchase?
> 
> Quote "The only purchase which is true is naam."
> Is the true Sikh a buyer who has purchased Naam?
> 
> Quote "And through this purchasse of naam can only be attainted through the guru."
> Please guide all. In which Mall is the Guru's shop?
> 
> Quote "this is the understanding i got from these two lines. However Veerji/Bhanjee whenever we look at a specific thuks its best to look at the entire shabad and to highlight those that you have questions on. As sometimes it is difficult to base the understanding off 2 lines because you need the entire shabad to get the bhav aarth."
> In my experience, God is highly appreciating each word of the Guru's Vaak. One who receives ONE Sabad from the true Guru understands not only His Vaak but His existence too.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 
Balbir Singh i don't know why you get so confused. You keep twisting your words together and try to make an argument out of it. THIS is used as an example and is not the literal meaning. Do you not get what an example also called similie or metaphor in the english language. This is the same thing. 

The seller is guru sahib as only through guru can you recieve the true purchase. Yes the True sikh is the buyer. He is buying anything with money however with pyaar. He is buying naam raas and the only way you can buy it is through the contemplation of the updesh of guru sahib. 

AGAIN I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A LITERAL MEANING. This is what you call bhav of the shabad. Some shabads literal meanings will be the same as bhav. some where the literal meanings will be not the same as bhav. The meanings which fit gurus shabad through out guru sahib bani should be accepted. Go back to the mangala charan of ikongkar satnam karta purkh nirbhau nirvair akaal moorth ajooni saibhang gurparsaaad for further clarification or it is good to go through guru granth sahib ji and find your answer as it is everyones own mission to do so. Gurbani is never ending ocean 


Balbir says: "In my experience, God is highly appreciating each word of the Guru's Vaak. One who receives ONE Sabad from the true Guru understands not only His Vaak but His existence too."

Balbir singh you are mistaken. Go and read sidh ghosht. When the sidhs are questioning guru sahib are you going to say that is what guru sahib is saying? 
The sidhs are asking guru sahib a question and in the following lines guru sahib is giving an answer. If the sidhs are making a comment which is against gurmat and in shri guru granth sahib and in the same shabad guru sahib is giving an answer to that what are you going to say that the sidhs are teaching gurmat and we should comtemplate those questions or comments raised by the sidhs in our daily lives? We have to look at the entire shabad balbir in some circumstances.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and International Akaali Jee!

Thanks for your post. Please accompany me in this Satsang further.

Quote "Do you not get what an example also called similie or metaphor in the english language. This is the same thing. "
People perhaps do not understand Guru's Vaak and call it a simile or metaphor.
The true Gurus speak truth. Truth does not need a simile or metaphor to express.

Quote "The seller is guru sahib as only through guru can you recieve the true purchase."
Please provide a reference from Gurdev where they have said so. I will be grateful.

Quote "Yes the True sikh is the buyer. He is buying anything with money however with pyaar. He is buying naam raas and the only way you can buy it is through the contemplation of the updesh of guru sahib."
I cannot imagine that the true Gurus converted a person into a buyer and trained him, purchasing with pyaar.

Quote "AGAIN I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A LITERAL MEANING."
I feel the same. Vesaahee-ai does not mean purchase
. Many have translated it so though.

Quote "The meanings which fit gurus shabad through out guru sahib bani should be accepted."
This is what preacher and translators are doing. Is it not so?
Truth does not have different meanings.

Quote "Go back to the mangala charan of ikongkar satnam karta purkh nirbhau nirvair akaal moorth ajooni saibhang gurparsaaad for further clarification or it is good to go through guru granth sahib ji and find your answer as it is everyones own mission to do so."
Who is your Guru who said it is Mangala Charan?

Quote "Balbir singh you are mistaken. Go and read sidh ghosht. When the sidhs are questioning guru sahib are you going to say that is what guru sahib is saying?"
Is it really so? Guru Sahib did not say this. Who else told about this dialogue?

Quote "The sidhs are asking guru sahib a question and in the following lines guru sahib is giving an answer. If the sidhs are making a comment which is against gurmat and in shri guru granth sahib and in the same shabad guru sahib is giving an answer to that what are you going to say that the sidhs are teaching gurmat and we should comtemplate those questions or comments raised by the sidhs in our daily lives? We have to look at the entire shabad balbir in some circumstances."
In my experience, those are stages of the conscious mind. Siddha's asking is one stage. The answer from Gurdev is the developed stage. 
Rarely someone finds him at the developed conscious mind as Gurdev answers.

**************

Vesaahu means confirmation (yakeen) that arises after true experience of Naam.

Gurdev is singing.
gur muiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Knowledge through the mouth is the thing for own experience. (That) Truth is never perishing. (That) Truth is capital.

Truth convinces a person only after he has experienced Truth. Getting this experience is vesaahee-ai.
The origin of the word Khar is the Sanskrit word Chhar, perishable. Vakharu is something different that is not perishable. Similarly Akhar does not perish. Truth does not perish either.
Similarly Vesaahu is the true experience.

Everyone can now go through the revered Guru's Vaaks where the above words occur and enjoy the essence of those at different level of consciousness.

Let this be another present to the whole world of spiritually growing people who love to have Satsang with Gurbaanee.


Balbir Singh


----------



## International Akaali

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and International Akaali Jee!
> 
> Thanks for your post. Please accompany me in this Satsang further.
> 
> Quote "Do you not get what an example also called similie or metaphor in the english language. This is the same thing. "
> People perhaps do not understand Guru's Vaak and call it a simile or metaphor.
> The true Gurus speak truth. Truth does not need a simile or metaphor to express.
> 
> Quote "The seller is guru sahib as only through guru can you recieve the true purchase."
> Please provide a reference from Gurdev where they have said so. I will be grateful.
> 
> Quote "Yes the True sikh is the buyer. He is buying anything with money however with pyaar. He is buying naam raas and the only way you can buy it is through the contemplation of the updesh of guru sahib."
> I cannot imagine that the true Gurus converted a person into a buyer and trained him, purchasing with pyaar.
> 
> Quote "AGAIN I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A LITERAL MEANING."
> I feel the same. Vesaahee-ai does not mean purchase
> . Many have translated it so though.
> 
> Quote "The meanings which fit gurus shabad through out guru sahib bani should be accepted."
> This is what preacher and translators are doing. Is it not so?
> Truth does not have different meanings.
> 
> Quote "Go back to the mangala charan of ikongkar satnam karta purkh nirbhau nirvair akaal moorth ajooni saibhang gurparsaaad for further clarification or it is good to go through guru granth sahib ji and find your answer as it is everyones own mission to do so."
> Who is your Guru who said it is Mangala Charan?
> 
> Quote "Balbir singh you are mistaken. Go and read sidh ghosht. When the sidhs are questioning guru sahib are you going to say that is what guru sahib is saying?"
> Is it really so? Guru Sahib did not say this. Who else told about this dialogue?
> 
> Quote "The sidhs are asking guru sahib a question and in the following lines guru sahib is giving an answer. If the sidhs are making a comment which is against gurmat and in shri guru granth sahib and in the same shabad guru sahib is giving an answer to that what are you going to say that the sidhs are teaching gurmat and we should comtemplate those questions or comments raised by the sidhs in our daily lives? We have to look at the entire shabad balbir in some circumstances."
> In my experience, those are stages of the conscious mind. Siddha's asking is one stage. The answer from Gurdev is the developed stage.
> Rarely someone finds him at the developed conscious mind as Gurdev answers.
> 
> **************
> 
> Vesaahu means confirmation (yakeen) that arises after true experience of Naam.
> 
> Gurdev is singing.
> gur muiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ] (18-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> Knowledge through the mouth is the thing for own experience. (That) Truth is never perishing. (That) Truth is capital.
> 
> Truth convinces a person only after he has experienced Truth. Getting this experience is vesaahee-ai.
> The origin of the word Khar is the Sanskrit word Chhar, perishable. Vakharu is something different that is not perishable. Similarly Akhar does not perish. Truth does not perish either.
> Similarly Vesaahu is the true experience.
> 
> Everyone can now go through the revered Guru's Vaaks where the above words occur and enjoy the essence of those at different level of consciousness.
> 
> Let this be another present to the whole world of spiritually growing people who love to have Satsang with Gurbaanee.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 
That is your choice if you do need to use similies or metaphors. So what are you saying guru sahib is not capable of having diffrent writing styles? You are right the guru does speak truth and they can speak it through metaphors and similies why do you have an objection to this? 

The refrence is above. Guru sahib is the only person who can give us naam. 

You cant your imagination is very limited so what can i do? Like i said before and said again whats your objection? 

Wait hold on a second, sometimes you say guru sahib doesnt need metaphors and similies and now you say veesahai is a metaphor? Why are you saying this? You can't have a double standard and say sometimes I like metaphor when i want to and sometimes i dont when i dont feel as though it fits my cult views? 

Do you got a problem with calling it mangla charan? what do you want to call it mool mantar? or some other name. Go look up what mangla charan. 

Dont act on double standard, either say there is no metaphors and similies used in guru granth sahib and then you say HEY VEESAHAAI means metaphor. 

The main concept behind the shabad is to become drowned in naam which is only obtained through the guru. As this is the only true purchase. I dont know why you find this so objectionable it is a very straight forward concept. Oh wait theres no point in reading Shri guru granth sahib ji to you as you think it is just a waste of time. As quoted before on this forum. So why do you keep refrencing guru sahibs bani over and over again when it is a waste of time to read over 1430 pages to you balbir?


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## Sikh80

sMq srin jo jnu prY so jnu auDrnhwr ] (279-13, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
One who seeks the Sanctuary of the Saints shall be saved.
 sMq kI inMdw nwnkw bhuir bhuir Avqwr ]1] (279-13, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
One who slanders the Saints, O Nanak, shall be reincarnated over and over again. ||1||


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## Sikh80

(515-17, mÚ 3)
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.


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## Sikh80

(562-16mÚ 5)
True is Your Mantra, Ambrosial is the Bani of Your Word.


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## Sikh80

(564-18)
True is the Bani of His Word, and True is the melody; True is contemplative meditation on the Word of the Shabad.


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## Sikh80

Are They Leading Sikhs Away From The Guru? - DiscoverSikhi.Com




Pl. visit the link.


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## spnadmin

WoW!! Sikh80 ji,

The link shed light on many things that have puzzled me since I joined SPN -- context for conversations that have taken place here. I want to say that there were some very sharp people keeping that dialog focused on Gurmat.


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## spnadmin

International Akaali ji

Is there some way, some format, by which you would be able to TEACH those of us who are converts to Sikhi, and those born Sikh, so that we could get the benefit of your clear, logical, uncomplicated understanding of Gurbani. What I envision is a kind of weekly conversation on a topic that is not too basic, not too advanced --- similar to the topic of this thread. You would start off with a brief essay posted ahead of time (all of this online in the forum) and then some of us would ask you questions and even have a dialog back and forth. Not a chat room! But an online discussion where people log on, post a question, or respond to a question that you ask of us.

Every other week or so, the Group could discuss what the next topic would be.

Would this perhaps work in one of SPNs *GROUPS* which you find on the links to left of this page?

Wondering what other SPN members think of this idea?


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## International Akaali

aad0002 said:


> International Akaali ji
> 
> Is there some way, some format, by which you would be able to TEACH those of us who are converts to Sikhi, and those born Sikh, so that we could get the benefit of your clear, logical, uncomplicated understanding of Gurbani. What I envision is a kind of weekly conversation on a topic that is not too basic, not too advanced --- similar to the topic of this thread. You would start off with a brief essay posted ahead of time (all of this online in the forum) and then some of us would ask you questions and even have a dialog back and forth. Not a chat room! But an online discussion where people log on, post a question, or respond to a question that you ask of us.
> 
> Every other week or so, the Group could discuss what the next topic would be.
> 
> Would this perhaps work in one of SPNs *GROUPS* which you find on the links to left of this page?
> 
> Wondering what other SPN members think of this idea?


 
Das is just a sewak of guru sahib as I myself is trying to do gur sewa on my part to be together with one. With the budhi i have i try to do the best I can. I know Singhs and Bhanjees that know much more then me i am just an ant compared to them.   

I think it is great that discussions of guru sahibs bani are going on over time. I was thinking of an idea of we can start a new group in which we can have discussions on diffrent shabads from gurbani. And have larrevaar discussions on it. We do the same at gurdwara sahib and have been doing it so for a while looking at diffrent teekas and having a discussion on it as a group. And sometimes come up with diffrent discussion where the teekas didnt even it do it the way which was discussed upon. This is the ultimate goal is to do veechar on guru sahibs shabad and when going home apply this shabad in your daily lives and live a life according to the guru. 

I think if we start from Jap Ji Sahib and start going on and having discussion for example each pauri or shabad than that would be a great idea.

And another group as you said for those who have questions as per gurbani for those who have questions as there are several singhs/kaurs here who are capable of answering questions and having discussion upon guru shabad.

Balbir and his "sword of truth" is also known as the "sword of confusion" as no one understand you including myself dont understand you as well. You are confusing and go around in circles. No ones apreciates your constant insults towards guru granth sahib ji. 

We can come up with diffrent ideas as to how we can have gurbani veechar.

Regards


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## Sikh80

_It is nice idea and I second it._
_It would be so nice if we start from ang.1 and continue thru. Japji sahib._
_Yes it may be posted thru. formation of a group. Some members may not like to join._


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## Astroboy

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and International Akaali Jee!
> 
> Truth convinces a person only after he has experienced Truth. Getting this experience is vesaahee-ai.
> The origin of the word Khar is the Sanskrit word Chhar, perishable. Vakharu is something different that is not perishable. Similarly Akhar does not perish. Truth does not perish either.
> Similarly Vesaahu is the true experience.
> 
> Everyone can now go through the revered Guru's Vaaks where the above words occur and enjoy the essence of those at different level of consciousness.
> 
> Let this be another present to the whole world of spiritually growing people who love to have Satsang with Gurbaanee.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 

Here are some verses of Bhagat Namdev to contemplate upon :-

*Page 718*
ਟੋਡੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤ ਕੀ
todee banee bhagtaaN kee​todee, The Word Of The Devotees:

ੴ ਸਿਤਗੁਰ ਪਰ੍ਸਾਿਦ ॥​ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:​ 
ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਿਨਰਵਾ ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਦੂਿਰ ॥
ko-ee bolai nirvaa ko-ee bolai door.
Some say that He is near, and others say that He is far away.​ 
ਜਲ ਕੀ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਚਰੈ ਖਜੂਿਰ ॥੧॥
jal kee maachhulee charai khajoor. ||1||
We might just as well say that the fish climbs out of the water, up the tree. ||1||​ 
ਕਇ ਰੇ ਬਕਬਾਦੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥
kaaN-ay ray bakbaad laa-i-o.
Why do you speak such nonsense?​ 
ਿਜਿਨ ਹਿਰ ਪਾਇਓ ਿਤਨਿਹ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jin har paa-i-o tineh chhapaa-i-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.
One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||​

ਪੰਿਡਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਬੇਦੁ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥
pandit ho-ay kai bayd bakhaanai.
Those who become Pandits, religious scholars, recite the Vedas,​

ਮੂਰਖੁ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਰਾਮਿਹ ਜਾਨੈ ॥੨॥੧॥
moorakh naamday-o raameh jaanai. ||2||1||
but foolish Naam Dayv knows only the Lord. ||2||1||​ 
ਕਉਨ ਕੋ ਕਲੰਕੁ ਰਿਹਓ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਤ ਹੀ ॥
ka-un ko kalank rahi-o raam naam layt hee.
Whose blemishes remain, when one chants the Lord's Name?​ 
ਪਿਤਤ ਪਿਵਤ ਭਏ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
patit pavit bha-ay raam kahat hee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Sinners become pure, chanting the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause||​ 
ਰਾਮ ਸੰਿਗ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਪਰ੍ਤਿਗਆ ਆਈ ॥
raam sang naamdayv jan ka-o partagi-aa aa-ee.
With the Lord, servant Naam Dayv has come to have faith.​ 
ਏਕਾਦਸੀ ਬਰ੍ਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾੲ ਂ ੀ ॥੧॥
aykaadasee barat rahai kaahay ka-o tirath jaa-eeN. ||1||​I have stopped fasting on the eleventh day of each month; why should I bother to go on
pilgrimages to sacred shrines? ||1||​ 
ਭਨਿਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਿਕਰ੍ਤ ਸੁਮਿਤ ਭਏ ॥​bhanat naamday-o sukarit sumat bha-ay.
Prays Naam Dayv, I have become a man of good deeds and good thoughts.

ਗੁਰਮਿਤ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋ ਨ ਬੈਕੁੰਿਠ ਗਏ ॥੨॥੨॥​gurmat raam kahi ko ko na baikunth ga-ay. ||2||2||
Chanting the Lord's Name, under Guru's Instructions, who has not gone to heaven? ||2||2||

ਤੀਿਨ ਛੰਦੇ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਛੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥​teen chhanday khayl aachhai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Here is a verse with a three-fold play on words. ||1||Pause||

ਕੁੰਭਾਰ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਹਡੀ ਆਛੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਸਡੀ ਗੋ ॥
kumbhaar kay ghar haaNdee aachhai raajaa kay ghar saaNdee go.​In the potter's home there are pots, and in the king's home there are camels.

ਬਾਮਨ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਰਡੀ ਆਛੈ ਰਡੀ ਸਡੀ ਹਡੀ ਗੋ ॥੧॥
baaman kay ghar raadee
aachhai raaNdee saaNdee haaNdee go. ||1||
In the Brahmin's home there are widows. So here they are haandee, saandee, raandee.||1||​ 
ਬਾਣੀਏ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਹੀਂਗੁ ਆਛੈ ਭੈਸਰ ਮਾਥੈ ਸੀਂਗੁ ਗੋ ॥​baanee-ay kay ghar heeNg aachhai bhaisar maathai seeNg go.
In the home of the grocer is asafoetida; on the forehead of the buffalo are horns.

ਦੇਵਲ ਮਧੇ ਲੀਗੁ ਆਛੈ ਲੀਗੁ ਸੀਗੁ ਹੀਗੁ ਗੋ ॥੨॥​dayval maDhay leeg aachhai leeg seeg heeg go. ||2||
In the temple of Shiva there are lingams. So here they are: heeng, seeng, leeng. ||2||

ਤੇਲੀ ਕੈ ਘਰ ਤੇਲੁ ਆਛੈ ਜੰਗਲ ਮਧੇ ਬੇਲ ਗੋ ॥​taylee kai ghar tayl aachhai jangal maDhay bayl go.
In the house of the oil-presser there is oil; in the forest there are vines.


ਮਾਲੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਕੇਲ ਆਛੈ ਕੇਲ ਬੇਲ ਤੇਲ ਗੋ ॥੩॥​maalee kay ghar kayl aachhai kayl bayl tayl go. ||3||
In the gardener's home there are bananas. So here they are: tayl, bayl, kayl. ||3||

ਸੰਤ ਮਧੇ ਗੋਿਬੰਦੁ ਆਛੈ ਗੋਕਲ ਮਧੇ ਿਸਆਮ ਗੋ ॥
jantaaN maDhay gobind aachhai gokal maDhay si-aam go.
The Lord of the Universe, Govind, is within His Saints; Krishna, Shyaam, is in Gokal.

ਨਾਮੇ ਮਧੇ ਰਾਮੁ ਆਛੈ ਰਾਮ ਿਸਆਮ ਗੋਿਬੰਦ ਗੋ ॥੪॥੩॥
naamay maDhay raam aachhai raam si-aam gobind go. ||4||3||
The Lord, Raam, is in Naam Dayv. So here they are: Raam, Shyaam, Govind. ||4||3||
............................................................................................................


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## spnadmin

Santokh ji

Thanks for blessing the thread with the Shabad you have chosen. This evening I was listening to rajkhalsa's presentation of Sukhmani Sahib. Making ourselves silent, staying focused on the Creator, finding Him within ourselves: these ideas as above are the pathway to being in His presence. Finding our salvation. Discovering our freedom.


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## spnadmin

International Akaali ji

If I open up one or two groups -- one for study of SGGS and the other for discussions of topics -- what should should we do next? It is not clear how to announce to forum members that a Group has been opened? IWould like to hear more of your thoughts about how to get the discussions started.

_Note: I did experiment in Groups just to see how it works. Now the creation of the group has to be moderated. So as soon as I understand more about the mechanics of this process, we can go back to your ideas and see what we do next._


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## simpy

*This is a good idea. *

*me neech will be more than happy to be a part of such effort. Aad Ji, International Akaali Ji, Sikh80 Ji..... GOOD THINKING*

*one thing that you all must consider while creating such group: not allowing wrong interpretations and disrespect towards Dhan Dhan Guru Ji, as these practices are very common on the internet. people will pose like they know all and are very dharmi karmi but are actually there to misguide and confuse the masses especially the new learners....*



*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and International Akaali Jee!

Quote "That is your choice if you do need to use similies or metaphors."
It is God's Will. An individual's ego feels it is his choice. Jise bujhaae naankaa . . . 

Quote "So what are you saying guru sahib is not capable of having diffrent writing styles?"
Bhaykdhaarees not only hide behind a pseudo name but also express their views on the name of others.
This is your analysis, words and wish that Balbir Singh should have written this. International Akaali has written it actually.

Quote "You are right the guru does speak truth and they can speak it through metaphors and similies why do you have an objection to this?"
It is again your mind that is objecting and blocking to experience Guru's words.

Quote "The refrence is above. Guru sahib is the only person who can give us naam."
I hope someone has understood it. The true Guru transfers Naam. He does not sell it.

Quote "You cant your imagination is very limited so what can i do?"
Worry about yours.

Quote "Like i said before and said again whats your objection?"
My posts are for those who are looking forward to receiving true Naam through Gurdev, not for those who want to purchase it.

Quote "Wait hold on a second, sometimes you say guru sahib doesnt need metaphors and similies and now you say veesahai is a metaphor?"
Strange, some feel they are smarter than God allows them to be.

Quote "Do you got a problem with calling it mangla charan?"
I asked who is your Guru who said it was Mangla Charan. True Sikhs do not hesitate the answer?

Quote "The main concept behind the shabad is to become drowned in naam which is only obtained through the guru."
It seems their desire has drowned them deep.

Quote "As this is the only true purchase."
O really, drowning is purchasing.

Quote "I dont know why you find this so objectionable it is a very straight forward concept."
It is not the Guru's notion. It is the manipulated explanation from business minds to run their shops.

Quote "Oh wait theres no point in reading Shri guru granth sahib ji to you as you think it is just a waste of time. As quoted before on this forum."
Please do not try to express your mind on my name. Why have you not quoted my words? This may prove it why your mind is expert in manipulating. 
Why do you not write your desire directly that people should stop reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee so that your Baabaas can run their business smoothly?

Quote "So why do you keep refrencing guru sahibs bani over and over again when it is a waste of time to read over 1430 pages to you balbir?"
Have you still not recognized God's Will?

**************

Those who are blessed with true Simran are thankful to Godly force called Naam that shatters ego continuously.
Others are interested in attacking persons envying them.

**************

Quote from Surinder Jee " . . . actually they are there to misguide and confuse the masses especially the new learners...."
Please take care of your children. Prepare yourself to satisfy their curiosity.

Balbir Singh


Balbir Singh Ji,
Please keep the discussion healthy. 
You are also being reminded not to indulge in personal vendetta.

Also, you have a track record of avoiding answering the queries (put forward to you) in a constructive way. It takes both sides to make a good debate. The purpose should be to educate the youth in a non-mysterious way. 

~ namjap ~


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## simpy

*Veer Balbir writes,*




> Please take care of your children. Prepare yourself to satisfy their curiosity*.*


 

*Waheguru Sache Patshah is taking care of His children, you dont need to request me neech to do so, neither you need to caution me, as Chaugird hamaare Raamkaar Dukh Lagay Na Bhaee.........*


*Waheguru Rakha Hai Balbir Ji..............*


*but anyways you worried about them, thanks a lot veer Balbir.*


*Veer Balbir Ji says:*



> My posts are for those who are looking forward to receiving true Naam through Gurdev, not for those who want to purchase it.


 
* you dont need to worry about others veer Balbir Ji, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is THE GIVER and Dhan Dhan GURU JI's SEVAKS are the recievers..... WHO IS BALBIR SINGH??????????*

*Das Tere Ki Baintee Rid Kar Parkas, Tumri Kirpa Te Paarbrahm Dokhan ko Naas.......................................*


*Waheguru Rakha mere veer*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## International Akaali

I am busy right now i will be on later but i got to say one thing, that balbir like i said before you did not answer my question on veesahai and totally ignored it, you sometimes say metaphor are acceptable and sometimes you say metaphors are not. Please clairfy yourself to the best of your ability so myself and the fellow members on this forum can understand a word you are saying as i predict you are gonna say a bunch of non-sense which isn't going to make sense as you have no answer. 

I will be back to reply to your entire post as well later on.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and International Akaali Jee!

These are my views from the post #73 of this thread.
People perhaps do not understand Guru's Vaak and call it a simile or metaphor.
The true Gurus speak truth. Truth does not need a simile or metaphor to express.

The word Vesaahu is not a metaphor. People use this word often in Punjabi language.
Somebody is not sure and does not believe it. A person gives him the proof and says 'hun tainoo vesaahu aayaa'.

Pakhandee Baabaas were never able to transfer the truth of Naam to anybody. That is why they chose for the translations that are now available, in my observation.

Please answer to my questions to save the true Sikhi without worrying if those are right or wrong.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Sache Paatshah De Panna # 23:*
*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan*


*ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਹੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥*
*ਤੈਸੀ ਵਸਤੁ ਵਿਸਾਹੀਐ ਜੈਸੀ ਨਿਬਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ *
*ਅਗੈ ਸਾਹੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਹੈ ਲੈਸੀ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥੧॥*




*Vanaj Karo VanJaareo Vakhar Leho Smaahl*
*Taisee Vast Vesaaheeay Jaisee Nibhay Naal*
*Aggay Sah Sujaan Hai Laisee Vast Smaahl.......*



*and Rahaao Di Tuk in this Shabad is:*



*ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਲੈ ਚਲਹੁ ਸਹੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥* 


*Bhaee Re Raam Kaho Chit Laaey. Har Jas Vakhar Le Chalay Sahu Dekhe Pateeaaey*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev.
Please explain what is your understanding of these Vaaks. Many readers do not understand Gurbaanee. They will be thankful for your explanation.

Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Sache Paatshah De Panna # 157:*
*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan*




*ਗਉੜੀ ਬੈਰਾਗਣਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ *
*ਹਰਣੀ ਹੋਵਾ ਬਨਿ ਬਸਾ ਕੰਦ ਮੂਲ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਉ ॥ *
*ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਹੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਾਰਿ ਵਾਰਿ ਹਉ ਜਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ *


*Harni Hova Ban Basaan Kand Mool Chun Khao*
*GurParsaadi Mera Sah u Milay Vaar Vaar Hau jau Jeeo*



*ਮੈ ਬਨਜਾਰਨਿ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ॥ *
*ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ਜੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*

*Mai Banjaaran Raam Ki*
*Tera Naam Vakhar Vapaar Jee*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Sikh80

jgu moih bwDw bhuqI Awsw ] (412-4, Awsw, mÚ 1)
The world is bound by its attachments to the many desires.
 gurmqI ieik Bey audwsw ] (412-4, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Through the Guru's Teachings, some become free of desire.


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## Sikh80

Attached Images


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## Sikh80

Dnu jobnu Aru PulVw nwTIAVy idn cwir ] (23-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Wealth, the beauty of youth and flowers are guests for only a few days.
 pbix kyry pq ijau Fil Fuil juMmxhwr ]1] (23-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Like the leaves of the water-lily, they wither and fade and finally die. ||1||
 rMgu mwix lY ipAwirAw jw jobnu nau hulw ] (23-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Be happy, dear beloved, as long as your youth is fresh and delightful.
 idn QoVVy Qky BieAw purwxw colw ]1] rhwau ] (23-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
But your days are few-you have grown weary, and now your body has grown old. ||1||Pause||


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## Sikh80

sjx myry rMguly jwie suqy jIrwix ] (23-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
My playful friends have gone to sleep in the graveyard.
 hM BI vM\w fumxI rovw JIxI bwix ]2] (23-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
In my double-mindedness, I shall have to go as well. I cry in a feeble voice. ||2||
 kI n suxyhI gorIey Awpx kMnI soie ] (23-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Haven't you heard the call from beyond, O beautiful soul-bride?
 lgI Awvih swhurY inq n pyeIAw hoie ]3] (23-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
You must go to your in-laws; you cannot stay with your parents forever. ||3||
 nwnk suqI pyeIAY jwxu ivrqI sMin ] (23-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, know that she who sleeps in her parents' home is plundered in broad daylight.
 guxw gvweI gMTVI Avgx clI bMin ]4]24] (23-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
She has lost her bouquet of merits; gathering one of demerits, she departs. ||4||24||


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## spnadmin

Respected members

Thought that I started a Discussion Group yesterday. But it isn't there in *Groups. *So I must have done it wrong. Will try again and get back to you.


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## Sikh80

What is this Discussion Group? Something new?


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## Astroboy

Click here > Main Banjaran Ram Ki


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 ji

It is the group we were talking about yesterday. I tried to create it after leaving the thread, but was not successful. Once I figure it out, I will let you know. So you and others can find it easily. Maybe it wasn't approved yet. It has to be approved by Admin.


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## Sikh80

Suggestions In the interpretation of the Tuks of SGGS ji *as appearing in the Threads*

It is high time that we formulate some basic rules for the threads where the translation/intepretation of the Gurbani is concerned. All I can say is that someone from the Moderator's side is to devise these simple and logical rules that can be followed by the members who are participatiing in these threads to avoid unpleasnatless for the members.
There should be dis-incentive for the members who indulge in "be-adbi' of either bani or the Guru sahib ji.

Only for information.


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Your suggestion suits fanatics. Ego convinces everyone that he is correct.

In my view, let everyone express his understanding. The readers apprehend it where God wants them to lead.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!
> 
> Your suggestion suits fanatics. Ego convinces everyone that he is correct.
> 
> In my view, let everyone express his understanding. The readers apprehend it where God wants them to lead.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 But who is a fanatic here?


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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

According to An oxford dictionary a fanatical person is a person filled with excessive and mistaken enthusiasm, esp. in religion.
From another dictionary, a fanatic is one who cannot change his mind and will not change the subject.
A fanatic is against all changes that push him to move. They need forums that certify their rigidity.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin

Pray for truth!

It is not clear why the idea of "fanatics" has come up at all in this thread. The thread was making its way through a discussion of Gurbani. 

I hope we are not going to follow a twist and turn in the road that will lead us off topic. The use of the word "fanatic" can even lead us into a name-calling session which will do nothing to advance the discussion. 

One never knows if a comment is an honest expression of a point of view -- or if it is a deliberate attempt to draw people into an argument that goes nowhere.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 said:


> Suggestions In the interpretation of the Tuks of SGGS ji *as appearing in the Threads*
> 
> It is high time that we formulate some basic rules for the threads where the translation/intepretation of the Gurbani is concerned. All I can say is that someone from the Moderator's side is to devise these simple and logical rules that can be followed by the members who are participatiing in these threads to avoid unpleasnatless for the members.
> There should be dis-incentive for the members who indulge in "be-adbi' of either bani or the Guru sahib ji.
> 
> Only for information.



Respected Sikh80 ji,

Your concerns are shared by many on the forum. Yes unpleasantness is the result of a lack of care in translation -- readers view mistaken translations as twisting the sacred words of the Guru. It demoralizes them. 

Here is the problem with setting up rules about translations. There were always be at least one person, and maybe others,  who is going to argue with the rule. They will make a big deal out of how the person/people who devised the rule are lost in a fog of sin and ignorance. That the rule should say what they want the rule to say because they (the critics) are in fact the only ones who know what the rule should be. They are inspired by God. 

So we end up with a holy war over the rule. So far we have had holy wars only about the translations.

A word about that. One can never tell if the bad blood spilt over translations is an honest desire to debate in a way that contributes to the growth of knowledge and understanding. Or whether it is an attempt to get an argument started and put the forum into an uproar. So it is often better to simply stick to your topic.

Hope that made sense.


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## Admin

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> It is the group we were talking about yesterday. I tried to create it after leaving the thread, but was not successful. Once I figure it out, I will let you know. So you and others can find it easily. Maybe it wasn't approved yet. It has to be approved by Admin.



Groups approved, my apologies for delay... In coming days, groups will be more interactive... a new version is coming up shortly.


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## spnadmin

Many thanks Aman Singh ji,

We will be very interested in how the new version works.

All the best!


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## simpy

*Dhan Dhan Sache Patshah Siri Guru Granth Sahib De Panna # 81:*

*min hir hir jpnu kry ]*
*hir gur srxweI Bij pau ijMdU sB iklivK duK prhry ]1] rhwau ]*
*Git Git rmeIAw min vsY ikau pweIAY ikqu Biq ]*
*guru pUrw siqguru BytIAY hir Awie vsY min iciq ]*
*mY Dr nwmu ADwru hY hir nwmY qy giq miq ]*
*mY hir hir nwmu ivswhu hY hir nwmy hI jiq piq ]*
*jn nwnk nwmu iDAwieAw rMig rqVw hir rMig riq ]5]*




*man har har jupun kurae *
*har gur surunaaee bhaj po jindhoo subh kilavikh dhukh purehurae *

*ghatt ghatt rumeeaa man vusai kio paaeeai kith bhath *
*gur pooraa sathigur bhaetteeai har aae vusai man chith *
*mai dhur naam adhaar hai har naamai thae gath math *
*mai har har naam visaahu hai har naamae hee jath path *
*jun naanuk naam dhiaaeiaa rung ruthurraa har rung rath *






*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*Hi Aad Ji,*

*can you please explain 'how to's '  for the groups.....*

*thanks*


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## spnadmin

Surinder ji, Hi to you.

Check your private messages for my question. I am in need of suggestions about how to proceed. You can find the GROUP by clicking on the blue *Groups* tab to the left and see them listed. However, people have to be invited to join to make up a group. So I am open to your suggestions and requests. And people have to let me know when and how they want to get started, particularly International Akaali ji because he had listed a number of suggestions. Right now all we have is the group space. But feedback is needed. Looking for your input which you can either pm or post in the thread. Thank you for your questions.


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## spnadmin

*Update - Progress starting 2 groups on vichaar of SGGS. 

*I have starting inviting members to join. Will invite more each day. So far 2 people have joined _Understanding Gurbani,_ and 2 have joined _Discussion of Siri Guru Granth Sahib and the Shabad._ 

Have also started a discussion on the vichaar of the Mool Mantar - just a beginning. It is possible at this time to reply to this thread. And the process works in Groups the same way it does here. You can reply to what I wrote and/or start a new thread if that is what you want to do.

Thank you.


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## Sikh80

I do not think it would be proper to initiate a new thread for this. At some places One come across some 'tuks'/lines in Granth sahib ji, that one cannot fit in the context. Will it be appropriate to ask the question in this thread. Being not very sure of this I am posting a line that is to be understood.
AwgY dyKau fau jlY pwCY hirE AMgUru ] (20-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.]

To help the participants to see the line in its outlay I am posting page 20 ..

pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.
Is it the body that is dyed in Fear of The Lord? Should it not be the mind?
nwnk Aaugx vIsry guir rwKy piq qwih ]4]15] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||


nwnk byVI sc kI qrIAY gur vIcwir ] (20-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.

ieik Awvih ieik jwvhI pUir Bry AhMkwir ] (20-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.


mnhiT mqI bUfIAY gurmuiK scu su qwir ]1] (20-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||

gur ibnu ikau qrIAY suKu hoie ] (20-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?


ijau BwvY iqau rwKu qU mY Avru n dUjw koie ]1] rhwau ] (20-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||

*AwgY dyKau fau jlY pwCY hirE AMgUru ] (20-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.*

ijs qy aupjY iqs qy ibnsY Git Git scu BrpUir ] (20-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.


Awpy myil imlwvhI swcY mhil hdUir ]2] (20-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||

I could not fit in the line as above in the context. Would be grateful for the advice.


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## Sikh80

I am recirculating the above unresolved query. It is requested that members may kindly like to opine .The opinion should not be based on what Dr Sahib Singh ji has stated. It should be your own opinion.
It should be simple for most of you but I feel stuck up.
Thanks in anticipation.


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## spnadmin

pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.
Is it the body that is dyed in Fear of The Lord? Should it not be the mind?

*
Pulled out so it stands out. This is the question for discussion.*


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## spnadmin

Sikh 80 ji

The word "body" is mentioned several times in the shabad. Only once is the word "than" used. In the line you question, there is no literal reference to "body" at all. (Also go back one page to Ang 19 to get a better sense of the metaphor at work in the shabad.)

Notice that the line doesn't include anything pointing to a "body" In my opinion you have to read the line as containing a poetic technique called "elipsis" Any actual reference to a person or thing is deliberately omitted by the poet in order to talk about a concept rather than to talk about a material person or object.

Sahib Singh  could also have translated to say "the one who is dyed" or "that personal sense of self that is dyed" in the color of the 5 elements. So what is Guruji getting at here?

The reason I look at the line this way: The body is dyed -- dyed in the color of Fear -- when something is dyed it is changed -- transformed. So in the line what has been transformed or changed -- What has been changed by fear of the Lord?  

It is not  a "body" nor a "mind" that should be dyed in fear of the Lord when reading this line. I believe instead that Guruji means ("means"  is different from "translates as" ) _that one, that one who, that individual, that person, the sum total of who that person is, _ when dyed in the Fear of the Lord will be transformed. But Guruji is saying this in an abstract way. 

My reasoning... look back in the same shabad to page 19 at earlier lines ... and you will see that the raag talks about *than* "the body" that is burnt, is destroyed, all that material *than, *that *body,* becomes ashes. 

*First this happens,* (Ang 19, line 14)
ਤਨੁ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਮਾਟੀ ਭਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੂਰੁ ॥ 
than jal bal maattee bhaeiaa man maaeiaa mohi manoor ||
The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.

*Then this happens,  *(Ang 20, line 1)
 pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.

*than* is irrelevant. None of that material body matters. What matters is this: the personhood, the identity of one's self, not the body, is dyed in the fear of the Lord. When that sense of self has been dyed, has been changed, has been transformed, transformed by Fear, then it  enshrines the divine light.

Guruji says* than* when meaning *body. *And leaves *than* out when talking about something beyond *than* or body.


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## Sikh80

isrIrwgu mhl 1 ] (19-13)

Siree Raag, First Mehl:


 qnu jil bil mwtI BieAw mnu mwieAw moih mnUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

1.The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.


 Aaugx iPir lwgU Bey kUir vjwvY qUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

2.Demerits become one's enemies, and falsehood blows the bugle of attack.


ibnu sbdY BrmweIAY duibDw foby pUru ]1] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

3.Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned. ||1||


 mn ry sbid qrhu icqu lwie ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

4.O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.


 ijin gurmuiK nwmu n bUiJAw mir jnmY AwvY jwie ]1] rhwau ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

5.Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||



 qnu sUcw so AwKIAY ijsu mih swcw nwau ] (19-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

6.That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.



 BY sic rwqI dyhurI ijhvw scu suAwau ] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

7.One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness,




 scI ndir inhwlIAY bhuiV n pwvY qwau ]2] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

8.is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||




swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

9.From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.


jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

10.From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.


 inrmlu mYlw nw QIAY sbid rqy piq hoie ]3] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

11.The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3||


 iehu mnu swic sMqoiKAw ndir kry iqsu mwih ] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

12.One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace.



 pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

13.The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.


 nwnk Aaugx vIsry guir rwKy piq qwih ]4]15] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

14.O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||


 isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (20-2)

Siree Raag, First Mehl:​ 


I am giving the 'sabad' under consideration in full. aad ji may be you understand the things correctly but I shall have to dig it more as essentially 'sabad' should be something divine i.e 'naam'. 


You have explained the meaning of line 13 as above. I shall have to have look for many times before I really understand as to that you have conveyed. I am not blessed with razor edge kind of intellect.I am fairly dull when stuck up in Bani. Hope you shall ignore this aspect.

Let us start as to what is the intention of 'sabad' [as above] in which the line appears.I shall take it up after some time ,may be one/two days.


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## Sikh80

Shabad No-2


 myry mn jip rwm nwmu hir mwJw ] (697-16, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)


O my mind, chant the Name of the Lord, the Lord within you.


 hir hir ik®pwil ik®pw pRiB DwrI guir igAwnu dIE mnu smJw ] rhwau ] (697-16, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

The Merciful Lord God, Har, Har, has showered me with His Mercy; the Guru has imparted spiritual wisdom to me, and my mind has been instructed. ||Pause||


 hir kIriq kljuig pdu aUqmu hir pweIAY siqgur mwJw ] (697-17, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)


In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise brings the most noble and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru.


hau bilhwrI siqgur Apuny ijin gupqu nwmu prgwJw ]2] (697-18, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

*I am a sacrifice to my True Guru, who has revealed the Lord's hidden Name to me. ||2||*



 drsnu swD imilE vfBwgI siB iklibK gey gvwJw ] (697-19, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

By great good fortune, I obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Holy; it removes all stains of sin.



 siqguru swhu pwieAw vf dwxw hirkIey bhu gux swJw ]3] (697-19, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

I have found the True Guru, the great, all-knowing King; He has shared with me the many Glorious Virtues of the Lord. ||3||




ijn kau ik®pw krI jgjIvin hir auir DwirE mn mwJw ] (698-1, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

Those, unto whom the Lord, the Life of the world, has shown Mercy, enshrine Him within their hearts, and cherish Him in their minds.



Drm rwie dir kwgd Pwry jn nwnk lyKw smJw ]4]5] (698-1, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

The Righteous Judge of Dharma, in the Court of the Lord, has torn up my papers; servant Nanak's account has been settled. ||4||5||​





This is the second 'shabad' about which I am clueless.

What is the meaning of the underlined line?
We already have Naam to grapple with. It should not be something new.
Since there was no other thread I posted it here to be discussed here. I think it is the only possible way else there would be very many threads runnnig on understanding of bani. Hope you shall forgive me. 
What is the secret about the name.?
Is it the 'naam' or something else.?
Kindly do not be guided by the translation.​


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## Astroboy

ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਝਾ ॥੨॥ 
Ha&shy;o balihārī saṯgur apunė jin gupaṯ nām pargājẖā. ||2|| 
I am a sacrifice to my True Guru, who has revealed the Lord's hidden Name to me. ||2|| 
ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੋਂ ਪਰ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਨੇ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਜਿਨੋਂ ਨੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਗੁਪਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਰਿਦੇ ਮੈਂ (ਪਰਗਾਝਾ) ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕੀਆ ਹੈ॥੨॥ 

Sikh80 Ji,

I understand this tuk as follows:-

Naam is ever-present but few realise its presence. A fish cannot understand that without water it cannot live. Very few fish realise this like the ones which escape the fishing trawlers net and jump back into the sea. Having a second chance to live, their lives are forever changed. 

Naam is the water in which we (like the fish) forever live in. But it remains hidden from our realisation of it. Once we realise this, then it manifests within us only. But others, who have not experienced this change in consciousness, remain deluded - naam remains gupt to them.


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## Sikh80

Respected namjap ji,

Thanks for a beautiful explanation. thanks again.

If Naam is 'gupt' then what do we practice upon. What is 'waheguru'? Is it not the Gurumantra? Is it not the mantra that invoke the heavenly kingdom? 
What is Gupt?
Are we talking of naam or name here. ?
In both cases 'waheguru' is the answer. Is it not so? If no then what is 'naam that I should practice upon.
I think' waheguru' contains the answer.


Pl. correct me.

Jap man Satnam .. sada satnam......
Jap man Satnam ..sada satnam.......


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## Sikh80

Respected Namjap ji,

I am sincerely grateful to you for this guidance. I know that some questions are to be answered for by oneself. You have been kind to guide me. You are perfectly alright. I need your continued guidance. 

But sometimes I feel that there should have been more guidance.
I sincerely feel that I should concentrate on my  nitnem properly. 

Thanks again for helping me out.

Regards.


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## Astroboy

Unfoldment comes from small nudges of life. Certain things stand out more than the others. Maybe it was some phrase used by someone that hit the target. A man once went to a garage sale and bought a couple of paintings. He hung them in his home each on one wall. 

During a social gathering in his home, a art professional viewed all the paintings one by one. He told the owner that one of the paintings was absolutely original work of a professional painter and that it would have costed the owner alot of money purchasing it. The estimated figure quoted shocked the owner to his disbelief. He was even offered to sell it to the visitor.

Here we are sitting on a box of diamonds and don't know the value of it. It takes a bhagat who has attained the naam to express what little we have found via our outer practice of naam japping, nitnem, simran, etc. It takes another enlightened soul to explain the value and quality of our present position on this journey towards God. It is with the help of a lighted candle that other candles can be lighted up. Every candle is made with this potential.

We already have a portion of that enlightenment but don't know its current value. In any sadhsangat, there are enlightened souls on the watch out of the signs one should have on this journey to God. They look for humility as first priority. If you have it, they will approach you casually. Then get to know you more and more. Each visit of theirs should bring forth the value of the jewel you already possess.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 ji

Don't .. please ..you are the one asking all these hard questions. That is the mark of a teacher. You are the teacher, and I am a struggling student. 

I have actually taken the entire issue to heart as you  present it. It did me good to think through the entire shabad line by line. And will  post my understanding a little later.


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## spnadmin

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> Don't .. please ..you are the one asking all these hard questions. That is the mark of a teacher. You are the teacher, and I am a struggling student.
> 
> I have actually taken the entire issue to heart as you  present it. It did me good to think through the entire shabad line by line. And will  post my understanding a little later.



Sikh 80 ji

Last night i worked on analysis of the shabad starting 

isrIrwgu mhl 1 ] (19-13)
Siree Raag, First Mehl:


 qnu jil bil mwtI BieAw mnu mwieAw moih mnUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
1.The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.

*Just to note: In order to continue as a discussant in this thread, which I am honored to do, I am recusing myself as moderator. And I really do not think that much moderation will be needed because the topic is Gurbani. Anyway that is my hope. *


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## Sikh80

AS a first job I am placing the sabad at the top of the post so that reference becomes easy. The immediate concern is the line  no.13. I think it is this line that you have posted inthe other thread as well. WE shall discuss it  here and paste the conclusion there so that one thread is clear. 

 isrIrwgu mhl 1 ] (19-13)

Siree Raag, First Mehl:


 qnu jil bil mwtI BieAw mnu mwieAw moih mnUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

1.The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.


 Aaugx iPir lwgU Bey kUir vjwvY qUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

2.Demerits become one's enemies, and falsehood blows the bugle of attack.


ibnu sbdY BrmweIAY duibDw foby pUru ]1] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

3.Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned. ||1||


 mn ry sbid qrhu icqu lwie ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

4.O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.


 ijin gurmuiK nwmu n bUiJAw mir jnmY AwvY jwie ]1] rhwau ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

5.Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||



 qnu sUcw so AwKIAY ijsu mih swcw nwau ] (19-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

6.That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.



 BY sic rwqI dyhurI ijhvw scu suAwau ] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

7.One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness,




 scI ndir inhwlIAY bhuiV n pwvY qwau ]2] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

8.is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||




swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

9.From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.


jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

10.From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.


 inrmlu mYlw nw QIAY sbid rqy piq hoie ]3] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

11.The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3||


 iehu mnu swic sMqoiKAw ndir kry iqsu mwih ] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

12.One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace.



 pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

13.The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light. 


 nwnk Aaugx vIsry guir rwKy piq qwih ]4]15] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

14.O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||


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## Sikh80

*Respected aad ji,*

I am guided by the commentary of sahib Singh ji and translation of Sant Singh ji Khalsa. Commentary of Sahib Singh ji is also silient about whether the fear of God turned on the mind or it is the light of the mind that leads one to have fear of lord. Both have been taken as concurrent phenomenon occuring in body and mind i.e Fear of lord and the occurance of the light in the mind ,probably, to avoid any confusion in this regard. 

*Fear of God and Light in Mind*

Nonetheless, your question is pertinent/valid as something should precede the other. I am tempted to draw a conclusion that both the events take place in mind and not in body and hence the Fear of God should precede the appearance of the light in mind. The appearance of the light is the knowledge or the spiritual wisdom that wells up in the mind on account of love of Lord or Naam or sabad that I am using as synonyms as has done by Sahib singh ji.There should not be a problem in this regard as discussed below. 

*Naam and Sabad: Synonyms*

At many places where Naam and sabad are not read in the context as per their literal meaning Sahib Singh ji has also taken a recourse to such a presumption. This is a valid presumption as to many of us neither Naam is known nor Sabad is known and hence that the simran we do is reflective of the Love for the Lord .

*Sabad and Meaning*

Line containing Rahao[1]

*Note: Presumption:*
  1.Sabad/Naam and Love of Lord are treated as same [synonyms]

  Oh my mind, place your consciousness on Sabad and swim through this worldly sea of human affairs. Those Gurmukhs who have not undersood the Naam/Love of Lord will remain in the cycle of Reincarnation[2]. 

  The body is reduced to ashes and the mind becomes like a piece of rusted iron on account of love of Maya i.e the big illusion. One is  attacked by the lower qualities and falsehood if one remains engrossed in Maya and/or if one is not engrossed in Sabad or love of Lord i.e. does not engage oneself in Simran or any similar activity that is reflective of Love of Lord. [1]

[1] The emphasis in this ‘sabad’ should be on ‘Sabad’ and ‘Naam’/Love of Lord.][Rahao]


[2][Note : The word employed is Gurmukh. Gurmukh appears whenever Gurus have to imply something positive but here it is not so.Any reason.? The reason should be discussed at the end or separately.] 


2.Only that body is said to be pure and immaculate that is imbued with the love of Lord/Naam and It is in the fear of God that one’s tongue tastes the Naam through Simran/love of Lord.[2]

3.It is through the Truth i.e. Him that Air is produced, and through Air water is produced. With water He established the three kingdoms/worlds and established Himself in every body. He, Himself, is always immaculate and pure and is not affected by the dirt of Maya. It is through the ‘sabad/’love of Lord’ that we are also honored.[3]   [where....May be in His court]

4.One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace. The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light. 
 [It is in this line that Fear of God should precede the light in the mind/welling up of spiritual wisdom.]

O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor.


[_P.S.
_Although it appears a very simple translation and cut and paste work.It has taken a good number of hours. It may still be defective due to lack of appreciation. You may kindly opine.
I shall post the  reason as to why/how the Term 'Gurmukh' has to be assigned positive meaning.]

Regards.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 ji,

 Well I will try to add my understanding. You make good points above, especially in saying that things are occurring in the mind not the body. I am including the transliteration as well as the Gurbani font. I am also using the Sahib Singh translation. My approach is to walk through the shabad line by line and look at how the Guru's message has been structured. The progress from one line to the next is important. Idea builds on idea. 

I have included the reference to Sriraag to begin with, not for the formality, but because Sriraag throughout has a a special quality of contemplation on the progress of the soul. I think this is important.

 ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲ ੧ ॥
sireeraag mehal 1 ||
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

Guru ji starts the sabad with this line. This is the premise on which the shabad is built. The starting point in the progression of ideas. Guruji is saying -- Here is where you are -- _than_ your earthy body is burning, is turning to ashes, your death is inevitable, you are decaying, and even your mind is decaying, rusting through, because of your love of Maya. It is as if the illusion of Maya is like a drug that destroys the body and the mind. So Guruji is saying be aware of this because this is really happening to you. 

 ਤਨੁ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਮਾਟੀ ਭਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੂਰੁ ॥
than jal bal maattee bhaeiaa man maaeiaa mohi manoor ||
The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.

Then Guruji,in the next line, line 13, describes what the consequences of this love of Maya have brought us. Only misery. Our own demerits, failings, faults, sins have become our enemies, and this lie that we live, the falsehood, is like a bugle, sounding a warning, these enemies will destroy us. 

13  ਅਉਗਣ ਫਿਰਿ ਲਾਗੂ ਭਏ ਕੂਰਿ ਵਜਾਵੈ ਤੂਰੁ ॥
aougan fir laagoo bheae koor vajaavai thoor ||
Demerits become one's enemies, and falsehood blows the bugle of attack.
 
Guruji in the next line, line 14, continues describing what has happened to us, and will happen to us. We will wanter around in reincarnation, when we  are without the word of the Shabad  bin sabadhai. Our love of duality -- this has been the defeat of multitudes. 

  14  ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਭਰਮਾਈਐ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਡੋਬੇ ਪੂਰੁ ॥੧॥
bin sabadhai bharamaaeeai dhubidhhaa ddobae poor ||1||
Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned. ||1||


So in these two lines Guruji explains that the body will die, the mind will rust, our sins will be our enemies, the lies and illusions, and actually the falsehoods, that we cling to in duality and Maya turn against us. And all this happens because we are without the Word of the Shabad. These are the consequences.

Next Guruji tells us what the mind must do about this swim across,. The line is giving spiritual direction. Focus your consciousness on the Shabad. 

 ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥
man rae sabadh tharahu chith laae ||               
O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.

And the consequence, it follows below. Those who do not become Gurmukh, who do not turn their faces to the Lord, do not understand the Naam -- What happens to them? They die mar janamai and are subject to coming and going, aavai jaae. Guruji here is speaking of a physical death -- they die, and they are caught in reincarnation.


 ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ           ॥
jin guramukh naam n boojhiaa mar janamai aavai jaae ||1|| rehaao ||
Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||

This is the _rehaao _line -- we pause and think because the next part of the Shabad is going to change in content. At this point we understand this. Focus your consciousness on the Shabad, and become a Gurmukh, understand the Naam, because if you  do not you will continue in reincarnation -- all those terrible things above. The misery of all of that falsehood and illusion will come back. 

In the next section lines 15 through 17m  Guruji explains what our reward will be when ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ man rae sabadh tharahu chith laae ||   O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.
 
Each of these lines tells us what the treasure is for the Gurmukh.

In line 15, the material body or physical body is stated, _than, _That body is pure in which the Saachaa naao resides. Line 16 will also talk about the body, but it is not the physical body, _than,_ but the body of something that is more abstract and not physical at all. And it is not earthly but something much greater than earthly consciousness. 

You will also notice that this use of _than i_s repeated in later lines for body. And then Guruji states body again, but it is not_ than_.

First _than_
 15 ਤਨੁ ਸੂਚਾ ਸੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
than soochaa so aakheeai jis mehi saachaa naao ||
That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.

Next line, line 16, _than_ is not stated, this is a different body -- the body of consciousness -- when consciousness is imbued with the Fear of Got, and when the tongue savor the Truthfulness ( the opposite of the falsehood of Maya)  

Then immediately a different body that is _not than._

16 ਭੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥
bhai sach raathee dhaehuree jihavaa sach suaao ||
One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness -- what happens? what is it like for that Gurmukh? Line 17 explains. 

This body is greater than the mind and material consciousness. It is brought to ecstasy. 

  17 Sਸਚੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਾਉ ॥੨॥
sachee nadhar nihaaleeai bahurr n paavai thaao ||2||
is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||

That person experiences ecstasy -- this is given by God's grace. That person is not reborn.* Ecstasy is the reward*

Now here is why I think there are  two lines that are talking about a body that is all of our consciousness, something that greater than our physical or our mental faculties. Lines 16 and 19. 

Line 16 ਭੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥ bhai sach raathee dhaehuree jihavaa sach suaao ||
One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness -- what happens? what is it like for that Gurmukh? 

and Line 19
 ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਸਚਿ ਭੈ ਰਤੇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਚੀ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ panch bhooth sach bhai rathae joth sachee man maahi ||The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.

Compare line 16 and line 19. In line 16 the body is imbued rathae with fear of the True One. In line 19 the body is dyed, colored rathae with the fear of the True One. Guruji is repeated this idea -- a body that is imbued with fear. That body  can only be that self that is not physical. It has to be something that can be transformed. When we dye or color something we transform it. So this body is something that is transformed by Fear of bhai sach, something that can savor the Truth and can be filled with the true light joth sachee

 So why is this not than? But consciousness?  Well the explanation starts here, and Guruji will finish the idea later in the Shabad. Guruji says, This is the reality, this is the truth. This what we need to know and be conscious of. 

ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
saachae thae pavanaa bhaeiaa pavanai thae jal hoe ||
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.

 18 ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
jal thae thribhavan saajiaa ghatt ghatt joth samoe ||
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.

 18 ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਮੈਲਾ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
niramal mailaa naa thheeai sabadh rathae path hoe ||3||
The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3|| 

He who has created everything, and is the source of the air and of water, and who created everything from air and water, is immaculate. He is pure. He is not polluted. His mind does not turn to rust. He has no demerits. No bugle need warn him. He has infused his light into every heart. Honor is obtained from the Shabad of this One. The mind that is contented with His Truth, that mind is a mind that has been blessed by His Grace. 

 19  ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਾਚਿ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
eihu man saach santhokhiaa nadhar karae this maahi ||
One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace.

So now we come to the conclusion. First we are told that we are being burnt, our minds rusted, our own self-deceit is our enemy. That without the truth we will continue in the cycle of life and death. Our mind must swim across and it must be transformed by the Fear of the True Lord, Next we are told about the Truth. Who is the Truth. How the Truth is obtained. Then we come to the conclusion. (continued on Ang 20)

Guruji finishes up with the point of the shabad. What should we learn?  How should we understand things now that we have listened to Guruji? 

 ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਸਚਿ ਭੈ ਰਤੇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਚੀ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
panch bhooth sach bhai rathae joth sachee man maahi ||
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.

What is Guruji talking about here -- the panch booth sach bhai rathhae - the five elements are air, water, fire, earth, and ether. This is what all of creation is made of. This is what a changed and transformed  consciousness of creation is aware of. This consciousness that is dyed in the fear of the True One sach bhai ratthae is dyed a different color, that means -- it is changed, transformed; it is fille with joth sachee 

Now earlier I thought this referred to consciousness of self, but that is the part I want to change. Now I think it consciousness of creation, a consciousness that is transformed. A consciousness that grasps much m ore. 

Guruji finishes up. 

 ਨਾਨਕ ਅਉਗਣ ਵੀਸਰੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਪਤਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥੪॥੧੫॥
naanak aougan veesarae gur raakhae path thaahi ||4||15||
O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||
And your worries, sins are forgotten. Your honor is preserved. 

In this consciousness, your deficiencies are forgotten, forgiven by God, and Guru preserves you honor. 

The puzzling lines make more sense now to me. Hope I wasn't too far off.


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## Sikh80

Respected aad ji

With due regards and without any disrespect I have to state that you have put in lot of labor and want to convey something seemingly very important and significant. I have spent some time on this. I am not with you exactly in the manner that you want me to read the analysis.

I think there are following problems.

 1.Kindly do not consider transliterations in assigning the meaning. [‘Than’ is a physical body and in phonetics it is ‘tun’ like ‘mun’ for mind.] 

 2.Pl. do not change the serial number of the lines of shabads.
 

 3. In any case I am highlighting the portion in Blue from where the things are not clear to me ,may be, on account of numbering of lines and I could not establish as to why should the ‘Tun’/Than not be a physical body ,may be you have to convey. But the message is lost.

4. I have nothing to believe that your analysis is incorrect or correct or it does fit in the context as  I am not able to proceed on account of the problems stated above. In any case i am not a judge.I shall appreciate if you could simplify the things so that we can go to the essence of the matter that you have to state /convey.

On the other hand I believe that you have very important thing to be conveyed but due to my lack of appreciation of things I cannot comment upon this. This seems to be an excellent analysis though.It should be so simply on account of the fact that it has been analysed by you. I think I have put the things in perspective that language is the problem. I also want to add but on account of problems of/with Vocabulary won't endeavor to do so. 
 Regards
 **********************************************************************

  Posted below is the sabad and you may like to repost by adjusting the line no. accordingly. I really want to appreciate that you want me to do.


isrIrwgu mhl 1 ] (19-13)
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
 qnu jil bil mwtI BieAw mnu mwieAw moih mnUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  1.The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.

 Aaugx iPir lwgU Bey kUir vjwvY qUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  2.Demerits become one's enemies, and falsehood blows the bugle of attack.

 ibnu sbdY BrmweIAY duibDw foby pUru ]1] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  3.Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned. ||1||

 mn ry sbid qrhu icqu lwie ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  4.O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.

 ijin gurmuiK nwmu n bUiJAw mir jnmY AwvY jwie ]1] rhwau ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  5.Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||


 qnu sUcw so AwKIAY ijsu mih swcw nwau ] (19-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  6.That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.


 BY sic rwqI dyhurI ijhvw scu suAwau ] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  7.One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness,


scI ndir inhwlIAY bhuiV n pwvY qwau ]2] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  8.is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||


 swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  9.From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.


 jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  10.From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.


 inrmlu mYlw nw QIAY sbid rqy piq hoie ]3] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  11.The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3||


 iehu mnu swic sMqoiKAw ndir kry iqsu mwih ] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  12. One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace.


 pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  13.The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.


 nwnk Aaugx vIsry guir rwKy piq qwih ]4]15] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  14.O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||


[Sikh80 ji,

Well I will try to add my understanding. You make good points above, especially in saying that things are occurring in the mind not the body. I am including the transliteration as well as the Gurbani font. I am also using the Sahib Singh translation. My approach is to walk through the shabad line by line and look at how the Guru's message has been structured. The progress from one line to the next is important. Idea builds on idea. 


  I have included the reference to Sriraag to begin with, not for the formality, but because Sriraag throughout has a a special quality of contemplation on the progress of the soul. I think this is important.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲ ੧ ॥
sireeraag mehal 1 ||
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

Guru ji starts the sabad with this line. This is the premise on which the shabad is built. The starting point in the progression of ideas. Guruji is saying -- Here is where you are -- _than_ your earthy body is burning, is turning to ashes, your death is inevitable, you are decaying, and even your mind is decaying, rusting through, because of your love of Maya. It is as if the illusion of Maya is like a drug that destroys the body and the mind. So Guruji is saying be aware of this because this is really happening to you. 

ਤਨੁ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਮਾਟੀ ਭਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੂਰੁ ॥
than jal bal maattee bhaeiaa man maaeiaa mohi manoor ||
The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.

Then Guruji,in the next line, line 13, describes what the consequences of this love of Maya have brought us. Only misery. Our own demerits, failings, faults, sins have become our enemies, and this lie that we live, the falsehood, is like a bugle, sounding a warning, these enemies will destroy us. 
13 ਅਉਗਣ ਫਿਰਿ ਲਾਗੂ ਭਏ ਕੂਰਿ ਵਜਾਵੈ ਤੂਰੁ ॥
aougan fir laagoo bheae koor vajaavai thoor ||
Demerits become one's enemies, and falsehood blows the bugle of attack.

Guruji in the next line, line 14, continues describing what has happened to us, and will happen to us. We will wanter around in reincarnation, when we are without the word of the Shabad bin sabadhai. Our love of duality -- this has been the defeat of multitudes. 

14 ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਭਰਮਾਈਐ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਡੋਬੇ ਪੂਰੁ ॥੧॥
bin sabadhai bharamaaeeai dhubidhhaa ddobae poor ||1||
Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned. ||1||

So in these two lines Guruji explains that the body will die, the mind will rust, our sins will be our enemies, the lies and illusions, and actually the falsehoods, that we cling to in duality and Maya turn against us. And all this happens because we are without the Word of the Shabad. These are the consequences.

Next Guruji tells us what the mind must do about this swim across, The line is giving spiritual direction. Focus your consciousness on the Shabad. 

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥
man rae sabadh tharahu chith laae || 
O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.

And the consequence, it follows below. Those who do not become Gurmukh, who do not turn their faces to the Lord, do not understand the Naam -- What happens to them? They die mar janamai and are subject to coming and going, aavai jaae. Guruji here is speaking of a physical death -- they die, and they are caught in reincarnation.


ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jin guramukh naam n boojhiaa mar janamai aavai jaae ||1|| rehaao ||


Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||

This is the _rehaao _line -- we pause and think because the next part of the Shabad is going to change in content. At this point we understand this. Focus your consciousness on the Shabad, and become a Gurmukh, understand the Naam, because if you do not you will continue in reincarnation -- all those terrible things above. The misery of all of that falsehood and illusion will come back. 

In the next section lines 15 through 17m Guruji explains what our reward will be when 

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ 
man rae sabadh tharahu chith laae || O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.

Each of these lines tells us what the treasure is for the Gurmukh.
=======================================================clear upto this====================
In line 15, the material body or physical body is stated, _than, _That body is pure in which the Saachaa naao resides. Line 16 will also talk about the body, but it is not the physical body, _than,_ but the body of something that is more abstract and not physical at all. And it is not earthly but something much greater than earthly consciousness. 

You will also notice that this use of _than i_s repeated in later lines for body. And then Guruji states body again, but it is not_ than_.

First _than_
15 ਤਨੁ ਸੂਚਾ ਸੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
than soochaa so aakheeai jis mehi saachaa naao ||
That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.

Next line, line 16, _than_ is not stated, this is a different body -- the body of consciousness -- when consciousness is imbued with the Fear of Got, and when the tongue savor the Truthfulness ( the opposite of the falsehood of Maya) 

Then immediately a different body that is _not than._

16 ਭੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥
bhai sach raathee dhaehuree jihavaa sach suaao ||
One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness -- what happens? what is it like for that Gurmukh? Line 17 explains. 

This body is greater than the mind and material consciousness. It is brought to ecstasy. 

17 Sਸਚੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਾਉ ॥੨॥
sachee nadhar nihaaleeai bahurr n paavai thaao ||2||
is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||

That person experiences ecstasy -- this is given by God's grace. That person is not reborn.* Ecstasy is the reward*

Now here is why I think there are two lines that are talking about a body that is all of our consciousness, something that greater than our physical or our mental faculties. Lines 16 and 19. 

Line 16 ਭੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥
bhai sach raathee  dhaehuree jihavaa sach suaao ||
One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness -- what happens? what is it like for that Gurmukh? 

and Line 19
ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਸਚਿ ਭੈ ਰਤੇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਚੀ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
panch bhooth sach bhai rathae joth sachee man maahi ||The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.

Compare line 16 and line 19. In line 16 the body is imbued rathae with fear of the True One. In line 19 the body is dyed, colored rathae with the fear of the True One. Guruji is repeated this idea -- a body that is imbued with fear. That body can only be that self that is not physical. It has to be something that can be transformed. When we dye or color something we transform it. So this body is something that is transformed by Fear of bhai sach, something that can savor the Truth and can be filled with the true light joth sachee
So why is this not than? But consciousness? Well the explanation starts here, and Guruji will finish the idea later in the Shabad. Guruji says, This is the reality, this is the truth. This what we need to know and be conscious of. 
ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
saachae thae pavanaa bhaeiaa pavanai thae jal hoe ||
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.

18 ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
jal thae thribhavan saajiaa ghatt ghatt joth samoe ||
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.

18 ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਮੈਲਾ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
niramal mailaa naa thheeai sabadh rathae path hoe ||3||
The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3|| 

He who has created everything, and is the source of the air and of water, and who created everything from air and water, is immaculate. He is pure. He is not polluted. His mind does not turn to rust. He has no demerits. No bugle need warn him. He has infused his light into every heart. Honor is obtained from the Shabad of this One. The mind that is contented with His Truth, that mind is a mind that has been blessed by His Grace. 

19 ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਾਚਿ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
eihu man saach santhokhiaa nadhar karae this maahi ||
One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace.

So now we come to the conclusion. First we are told that we are being burnt, our minds rusted, our own self-deceit is our enemy. That without the truth we will continue in the cycle of life and death. Our mind must swim across and it must be transformed by the Fear of the True Lord, Next we are told about the Truth. Who is the Truth. How the Truth is obtained. Then we come to the conclusion. (continued on Ang 20)

Guruji finishes up with the point of the shabad. What should we learn? How should we understand things now that we have listened to Guruji? 

ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਸਚਿ ਭੈ ਰਤੇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਚੀ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
panch bhooth sach bhai rathae joth sachee man maahi ||
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.

What is Guruji talking about here -- the panch booth sach bhai rathhae - the five elements are air, water, fire, earth, and ether. This is what all of creation is made of. This is what a changed and transformed consciousness of creation is aware of. This consciousness that is dyed in the fear of the True One  sach bhai ratthae is dyed a different color, that means -- it is changed, transformed; it is fille with joth sachee 

Now earlier I thought this referred to consciousness of self, but that is the part I want to change. Now I think it consciousness of creation, a consciousness that is transformed. A consciousness that grasps much m ore. 

Guruji finishes up. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਅਉਗਣ ਵੀਸਰੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਪਤਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥੪॥੧੫॥
naanak aougan veesarae gur raakhae path thaahi ||4||15||
O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||
And your worries, sins are forgotten. Your honor is preserved. 

In this consciousness, your deficiencies are forgotten, forgiven by God, and Guru preserves you honor. 

The puzzling lines make more sense now to me. Hope I wasn't too far off.
*********************************************************


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## Sikh80

Having stated all this and after having a re-look at the things I really feel guilty of not doing any justice to your efforts. I may kindly be forgiven for this and also for the crude and harsh language that could have been well avoided.

Regards.


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## spnadmin

Actually Sikh80 ji

You should not be expressing any regrets or apologies. You have done something which fulfills my ideal of what a forum should look like. A conversation. Yes I spent time and effort but understanding is something that grows. You looked at what I wrote and said you don't fully get my meaning and would I please elaborate. And that is very key to a discussion. Now it is my responsibility and opportunity to be clear and make sense. What I have never liked in forum discussion is when someone swoops down like a bird -- says this and that and you are wrong and your brains are twisted -- and then flies off.  i can't continue right now but look forward to going  back in a few hours. Problem is I only have about 1/2 hour online right now and then have to go off to do some other things. 

P/S the transliterations are needed for people who know Punjabi but can't read Gurbani font. There are plenty like that. Don't we have to consider them too? 

Thanks for your comments.


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## Sikh80

Respected aad ji,

Yes, it is true that we should continue with the discussion and that is important but I am over loaded with the feeling of guilt and It shall take time to shed it off. 

I did put in efforts to make out the things but my level of appreciation of the things is not the same as yours .  Our carrier frequency may not be exactly the same. We have impressions of Gurbani  that is almost inscripted  and  one tends to be guided by that is already established. Hence even if the message is properly modulated by our thoughts it is always the demodulator who has to segregate the message and the carrier. Because of this bias of the demodulator that things appear as they should not be. We also do not have reasonable means to get over this process of erroneous demodulation.

With this background in mind one tends to arrive at the conclusions that are already drawn or are in the vicinity of them.A close resemblance is accepted by mind. But if some new meaning is assigned mind becomes susceptible _ab initio_. 

I also have this kind of a colored vision and taking new meanings with this coloring makes things difficult. 
I have very recently arrived at the meanings of the lines etc., . Making mind to accept that varies significantly from the assigned meaning becomes a difficult proposition. 
It is ,however, assured that I shall respond with positive and open frame of mind when you explain the things. I am no one to offer comments on the research carried by you as I am not a person who is competent to do that. I have stated all that came to my mind after devoting almost two hours in the morning. I re-looked at the things at noonish but could not proceed further on account of the difficulties stated above.

I have great regards for you and one need not express in words time and again. In fact i look forward to your posts as you are working very hard at the things and making us learn new things. With this spirit in mind i shall close now. As usual there are likely to be mistakes in this post as well. Pl. do forgive again. Let us give it a break for sometime. Kindly reply at your convenience. we are all here.
How I wish to be in US right away!
Regards.


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## spnadmin

I don't know what to say. If you come to the US send me a pm and we can go to some good gurdwaras. Very spiritual places in their own way.  Or, if that is too too too stuffy, you tell me and I will try my best. 

Please do not think I am ignoring your questions. Tonight I will have more time to think about your questions -- when things quiet down around here.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 ji

This is one of the parts you highlighted in blue. 

In line 15, the material body or physical body is stated, _than, _That body is pure in which the Saachaa naao resides. Line 16 will also talk about the body, but it is not the physical body, _than,_ but the body of something that is more abstract and not physical at all. And it is not earthly but something much greater than earthly consciousness. 

What I am thinking is that Guruji is speaking about two different ideas of body. When Guruji talks about _than t_hat is the physical, the body that is burnt to ashes. This is the part that is deluded b Maya. Then Guruji progresses to speaking about consciousness -- the "body" which must be dyed or dyed by Fear and so tranfsormed by Fear. 

One line is about _than _and the next line is translated to mean "body" but is about a different sense of body.. 
 
The first time this is written it looks like this. 

 15 ਤਨੁ ਸੂਚਾ ਸੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
than soochaa so aakheeai jis mehi saachaa naao ||
That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.

Then immediately a different body that is not_ than, _is referred to. This "body"  is imbued with Fear, and its tongue savors Truthfulness. 

16 ਭੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥
bhai sach raathee dhaehuree jihavaa sach suaao ||
One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness -- what happens? 

and then Guruji says it again

 ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਸਚਿ ਭੈ ਰਤੇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਚੀ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
panch bhooth sach bhai rathae joth sachee man maahi ||
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light. 

 This "body" again is not the physical body. It a body of conscousness -- the body of the five elements -- therefore consciousness of all of creation. When this body is dyed in the Fear of the True One, it is transformed, and then it is filled with the True Light. 

So there is this progression: 

1. The material body than is burned, destroyed, as we speak, and its mind is being rusted away. This is the body and the mind in delusion. 

2. Nothing can over come the coming and going of reincarnation until a different "body" is transformed by Fear. When its tongue speaks Truthfulness. When it becomes Gurmukh.

3. Then when the body, conscious of the 5 elements, our consciousness of creation, when it is transformed by Fear, then it will be imbued with the Light of the Lord. 

Leave Maya behind, become a Gurmukh, be filled  with the True Light, you will never be subject to the cycle of life and death. 

Also you raised this question.

 3. In any case I am highlighting the portion in Blue from where the things are not clear to me ,may be, on account of numbering of lines and I could not establish as to why should the ‘Tun’/Than not be a physical body ,may be you have to convey. But the message is lost.


I am saying that _than _is the physical body. Sorry about the line numbering. I could go back and put the numbers in.


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## Sikh80

Respected aad ji,

Thanks for the explanation. May be with time I shall learn more and appreciate the view point expressed as above.

_I have another question for you._ 


In the followings there is an allusion to Shiva, Brahma...etc.,
What is the contextual meaning that is being stated in Jap Ji sahib Paudi.? I had skipped this line while discussing the paudi.
The portion stated is highlighted below.


He cannot be established, He cannot be created.
He Himself is Immaculate and Pure.
Those who serve Him are honored.
O Nanak, sing of the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence.
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||


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## pk70

*Sikh80 ji

aad00002 ji might have missed this post, if you allow me, I can say a little as  I understand it.
If you read above Guru vaak, it says the one who are tuned to Guru(understand Guru as well), comprehend that he permeates every where there for for us Guru is the best, guru ji our Shiva, Guru is our brahma, Guru is Gorakh yogi and guru is Parvatimai.  Following Guru vaak makes further clear that HE is inexpressible even after understanding Him through Guru. My reference sources are Bhai Veer Singh and Dr. Sahib singh. Bhai Veer Singh  actually explains in a better way though idea and meanings remain the same.
Here duality is at target putting immense respect and faith in Guru.  Inspiring idea is to have HIM in our thoughts.
*


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## spnadmin

Thanks pk70 ji and apologies Sikh80 ji. I don't remember why I did not answer your question. Let me give it some thought. This is an area that always gets me into trouble. I have a somewhat unconventional understanding of the use of Hindu gods in Gurbani that gets me in trouble with various forum members. I will get back to you.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. 

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ 
jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥ 
guraa eik dhaehi bujhaaee ||
The Guru has given me this one understanding: 

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥ 
sabhanaa jeeaa kaa eik dhaathaa so mai visar n jaaee ||5||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 2​


First the Guru is a Sanskrit word which means the Light which dispels the darkness.  When the pauri says _eik dhaathaa_, it is saying the Guru is only One, the giver of all beings.  So we know this Guru is referring to none other than the One Primal Uncreated God.  Yet, we have this reference to multiplicity with the tuuk:

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.​
First consider that the human brain is formed in the duality perceived by material existence in the pakrti which is the sansaaric world of the three gunas: satto, rajo, tamo.  This is because those three qualities are forms of energy which flow through the pakrti, and relate to embodied consciousness.



> _Guna: a constituent, strand, or dimension of prakrit_



So the very nature of the human mind in sansaara is the misperception of duality of opposites and corresponding likes, dislikes, attachment, repulsion, identification and rejection.  The very nature of the human mind is to perceive in forms of opposites.  So the _eik dhaathaa_ which is literally indescribable is perceived as describable forms as Hindu devas.  But the truth is, this is Oneness, which Gurbani says is the nirgun and sargun nature of the One Primal Divine Beloved.

To understand this, the Bhagavad-Gita makes it clear there are different types of purusha being discussed.  When the purusha, or small atma is speaking, it is from the bondage of ego-identity and material pakrti.  Yet, there is a liberated jeevan which is speaking from God-consciousness, as the One Primal Parabrahm permeates all forms.  And there is the final Supreme Paramatman who is uncreated.

So I believe when the tuuk is saying Guru is Mahesh, Vishnu and Brahma, it is speaking in context of the Light manifestation of the One reflecting through the forms.  All that Gurbani says is the forms which manifest the Light become darkened because of the qualities of material manifestation.  It does not say anywhere they are mythological forms, ideological references to Hindu theology for sake of familiarity.  But clearly Gurbani says in many places that the One Parabrahm is pervading all and has manifest in the forms of Hindu devas and the ten incarnations of Vishnu.  But Gurbani clearly distinguishes the different forms of atman from the Primal uncreated Ik Oangkar.  And Gurbani says in many places because even the Mahadevas fell into Maya they could not provide liberation, mukti.  So the Primal Shabad, the Sruti which was the sound current pervading the Vedas, (Light is sound at higher dimensions perceived at a lower scale), the Naad vibrates the sound into sansaara as the final Light of God in the Kalyug because the previous legs of religion have fallen down.  No one can be saved without the Naam, which is from the Shabad, which is from the Naad.  So the manifestation of God's Jyot in this age is the Sound current itself.


> _Bhagavan Shree Krishnan (Shreeman Narayanan) says "There are two types of Purushaas - first type is that Kshara purusha who is bound (baddha jeevaatman) in the material world in his material body. The second type is the Akshara purusha who is liberated from this material world who is mukta and another type in this itself is nitya who is eternally untouched by the material bindings. But the supreme purusha is different from these Jeevaatmans and he is called as Paramaatman who pervades the entire universe and controls everything as the unparalleled and unsurpassed infinite Lord. As I (Krishna - Shreeman Narayanan) transcend the Kshara purusha as well as the Akshara purusha, I am celebrated in all the Smruties and the Apourusheya Veda as Purushoththaman - The Supreme Self"
> Sri Visistadvaitha Tutorial - Lesson Eight_



ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.​



> _Śruti (Devanagari श्रुित, "what is heard") is a canon of Hindu sacred texts. They do not date to a particular period, but rather stretch across the entire history of Hinduism, beginning with the some of the earliest known Hindu texts, spanning into the modern period with the Upanishads.
> 
> Śruti has no author; rather, it is divine recording of the "cosmic sounds of truth", heard by rishis (saints or sages)._






> _Śábda is the Sanskrit for "sound, speech" In Sanskrit grammar, the term refers to an utterance in the sense of linguistic performance.  Katyayana stated that shabda "speech" is eternal (nitya), as is artha "meaning", and their mutual relation. According to Patanjali, sphoṭa ("meaning") is not identical with shabda, but rather its permanent aspect, while dhvani "sound, acoustics" is its ephemereal aspect.  Bhartrihari on the other hand held a shabda-advaita position, identifying shabda as indivisible, unifying cognition and linguistic performance, ultimately identical with Brahman.
> Shabda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_





> _AUM is the eternal sound emanated at the time of creation. It is composed of three syllables viz: A U M. The mind has three important states: waking, dreaming, and sleeping. The word A, U, M represents all the three states: A=waking, U=dreaming, M=sleeping. The last syllable M, when pronounced, is followed by a deep silence and that is the fourth state of mind known a s turiya. By chanting AUM the mind transcends from three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping to the fourth state of turya and experiences silence. When the mind goes deep into the depths of this silence, it hears the cosmic sound of AUM. This emanates from the prana (vital vibration) which fills the universe.
> My Pilgrimage to Gayatri Mantra, Manohar Abhay_



If you read very closely, you can see parallels in what Gurbani is saying about the Shabad, the Naad and the fourth state tureeya, or ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦ, by which the consciousness transcends ordinary mind, sansaara, brain itself and perceives intuitively the Primal Oneness as unending sound or anehad shabad.  This state is sehaj samaadhi, also known as tureeya.




> _In Hindu philosophy, turiya (or chaturtha) is a state of pure consciousness, or the experience of ultimate reality and truth. It is a fourth state of consciousness that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti)...
> 
> Turiya represents consciousness free from material influence. The idea is that consciousness, of which the atman is constituted, exists in our wakeful state of material experience, as it continues during sleep. In sleep we dream and experience the mental realm, whereas during our waking state the physical plane has more bearing on our lives.
> 
> Upon awakening from deep dreamless sleep, one remembers existing in that condition. This is evidenced by the common expression, 'I slept well!' One cannot remember something one has no experience of.
> 
> Thus, in deep sleep when intelligence is transformed by tamo guna, the self continues to exist, as it does when intelligence is transformed by rajo guna during the dream condition and during the wakeful condition when intellect is transformed by sattva guna. The self is independent of the body and mind. If the physical and mental realms were to shut down, the self would continue to exist. This we know from our experience in deep sleep. Realizing this involves entering the turiya.
> 
> The Bhagavata Purana, verse 11.15.16 describes Bhagavan as turiyakhye (the fourth), defined in the Bhagavad Gita, verse 7.3 as:
> 
> "Within the material world the Lord appears as the three Visnus (gunas). The original form of the Lord is another form still. He is beyond material nature and thus known as the fourth."_


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness. 

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ 
kar kirapaa maelaaeian har naam vasiaa man aae ||
Granting His Grace, God unites us with Himself. The Name of the Lord comes to abide within the mind.
~SGGS Ji p. 30​


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਵਰਤਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਤਿ ਖੋਈ ॥ 
thrai gun varathehi sagal sansaaraa houmai vich path khoee ||
The three qualities permeate the whole world; acting in ego, it loses its honor. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੩॥ 
guramukh hovai chouthhaa padh cheenai raam naam sukh hoee ||3||
But one who becomes Gurmukh comes to realize the fourth state of celestial bliss; he finds peace through the Name of the Lord. ||3||

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਭਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੋ ਤੂ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
thrai gun sabh thaerae thoo aapae karathaa jo thoo karehi s hoee ||
The three qualities are all Yours, O Lord; You Yourself created them. Whatever You do, comes to pass.  

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਸਬਦੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ ॥੪॥੧੨॥ 
naanak raam naam nisathaaraa sabadhae houmai khoee ||4||12||
O Nanak, through the Lord's Name, one is emancipated; through the Shabad, he is rid of egotism. ||4||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 604​

~bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## pk70

Quote”And it doesn't make sense to us logically that God is God, and at the same time Krishna could be a manifestation of God”
*It is the spiritual knowledge which is hard to swallow through logic, Guru Nanak ji asked us to find HIM within us after eliminating doors and locks of anger, ego, greed etc we protect every day unconsciously (GGSJi 877) Logic never works in spiritual pursuit, the high spiritual experience stops dividing His creation on the basis of History or any man made assertion. Tragedy of all is this that to whom Guru ji spoke so clearly and openly are engulfed with tons of loads of philosophy which was proved to be of no value by Guru Ji in this search.*


  . 
  Quote”Both the Vedic concepts of Pakrti and Purusha are reflected in Gurbani”
*Guru ji referred many things, we do not need to stick to them. Here are two examples, please after reading do not say Guru ji agrees that Ganges water is pure because he is just using prevailed accepted idea to give his idea, sometimes it can be very sticky, only those can understand who keep the totality of Gurbani in mind while studying it.*
ਪੁੰਨ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁੰਨਦਾਨ [/FONT]ਕਾ [/FONT]ਕਰੇ [/FONT]ਸਰੀਰੁ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
पुंन दान का करे सरीरु ॥ 
Punn ḏān kā karė sarīr. 
He, who with his body gives in charity and alms all he can; 
ਜਿਹੜਾ ਕੋਈ ਆਪਣੀ ਦੇਹ ਨਾਲ ਜਿੰਨਾ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ, 

ਸੋ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੋਗਿਰਹੀ [/FONT]ਗੰਗਾ [/FONT]ਕਾ [/FONT]ਨੀਰੁ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
सो गिरही गंगा का नीरु ॥ 
So girhī gangā kā nīr. 
That house-holder is pure like the water of Ganges. 
ਖੈਰਾਤ ਤੇ ਸਖਾਵਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਗ੍ਰਹਿਸਤੀ ਗੰਗਾ ਦੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਰਗਾ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਹੈ।
ਗੰਗਾ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਗੰਗਾਜਉ [/FONT]ਗੋਦਾਵਰਿ [/FONT]ਜਾਈਐ [/FONT]ਕੁੰਭਿ [/FONT]ਜਉ [/FONT]ਕੇਦਾਰ [/FONT]ਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਈਐ [/FONT]ਗੋਮਤੀ [/FONT]ਸਹਸ [/FONT]ਗਊ [/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ [/FONT]ਕੀਜੈ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
गंगा जउ गोदावरि जाईऐ कु्मभि जउ केदार न्हाईऐ गोमती सहस गऊ दानु कीजै ॥ 
Gangā ja*o goḏāvar jā*ī*ai kumbẖ ja*o kėḏār nĥā*ī*ai gomṯī sahas ga*ū ḏān kījai. 
If one goes to the Ganges and Godawari every twelfth year, or bathes at Kedar Nath, or makes alms of thousands of cows at Gomti. 
ਜੇਕਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਹਰ ਬਾਰ੍ਹਵੇਂ ਸਾਲ ਗੰਗਾ ਅਤੇ ਗੋਦਾਵਰੀ ਜਾਵੇ, ਜਾਂ ਕਿਦਾਰਨਾਥ ਦਾ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰੇ, ਜਾਂ ਗੋਮਤੀ ਤੇ ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਹੀ ਗਾਈਆਂ ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਕਰੇ, 

ਕੋਟਿ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕੋਟਿਜਉ [/FONT]ਤੀਰਥ [/FONT]ਕਰੈ [/FONT]ਤਨੁ [/FONT]ਜਉ [/FONT]ਹਿਵਾਲੇ [/FONT]ਗਾਰੈ [/FONT]ਰਾਮ [/FONT]ਨਾਮ [/FONT]ਸਰਿ [/FONT]ਤਊ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਪੂਜੈ [/FONT][/FONT]॥੨॥ 
कोटि जउ तीरथ करै तनु जउ हिवाले गारै राम नाम सरि तऊ न पूजै ॥२॥ 
Kot ja*o ṯirath karai ṯan ja*o hivālė gārai rām nām sar ṯa*ū na pūjai. ||2|| 
If he performs millions of pilgrimages of holies or freezes his body in the Himalayas; Even then all these equal not the Lord's Name. 
ਜੇਕਰ ਉਹ ਕ੍ਰੋੜਾਂ ਹੀ ਧਰਮ ਅਸਥਾਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਯਾਤ੍ਰਾ ਕਰ ਲਵੇ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪਣੀ ਦੇਹ ਨੂੰ ਹਿਮਾਲਿਆ ਵਿੱਚ ਠੰਡ ਨਾਲ ਗਾਲ ਦੇਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੇ ਤੁਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੁਜਦੇ।
*Guru ji using all accepted pilgrimage and rejecting their importance in concept of purity of soul. Guru ji has to say about all these popular names, nothing more than that, I shall give you another example to prove how guru ji is just referring but not verifying the reality of those ones.*
  . Quote "In Gurbani the Primal Purusha is called ਪੁਰਖ.
ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਹ ਦੇਖਉ ਦੋਇ ॥ 
dhharan gagan neh dhaekho dhoe ||
In the earth and in the sky, I do not see any second.

ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥ 
naaree purakh sabaaee loe ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining. ||3||

ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਦੇਖਉ ਦੀਪਕ ਉਜਿਆਲਾ ॥ 
rav sas dhaekho dheepak oujiaalaa ||
In the lamps of the sun and the moon, I see His Light.

ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਬਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ 
sarab niranthar preetham baalaa ||4||
Dwelling among all is my ever-youthful Beloved. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 223"
*Above is very clear description of HIS Sargun form, in that come all accepted Devtas and other so called enlightened ones. Here problem is that, it is very hard to understand the fact that His light is every where with logic. In the above Guru Vaak is a display of a state of mind that sees clearly  Him in His creation, other minds just boggle.*
*Quote
*"ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||
The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.

ਸਗਲ [/FONT]ਪਰਾਧ [/FONT]ਦੇਹਿ [/FONT]ਲੋਰੋਨੀ [/FONT]॥ 
sagal paraadhh dhaehi loronee ||
You sing lullabyes to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes. 

[/FONT]ਸੋ [/FONT]ਮੁਖੁ [/FONT]ਜਲਉ [/FONT]ਜਿਤੁ [/FONT]ਕਹਹਿ [/FONT]ਠਾਕੁਰੁ [/FONT]ਜੋਨੀ [/FONT]॥੩॥ 
so mukh jalo jith kehehi thaakur jonee ||3||
Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| 

[/FONT]ਜਨਮਿ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਮਰੈ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਆਵੈ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਜਾਇ [/FONT]॥ 
janam n marai n aavai n jaae ||
He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation. 

[/FONT]ਨਾਨਕ [/FONT]ਕਾ [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਭੁ [/FONT]ਰਹਿਓ [/FONT]ਸਮਾਇ [/FONT]॥੪॥੧॥ 
naanak kaa prabh rehiou samaae ||4||1||
 [/FONT] The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 1136

Quote “Here Gurbani is talking about the error of making the Supreme Primal uncreated into a stone idol, like worshipping picture frames and not the Reality. It says that the Parabrahm Nirankar is pervading and manifest everywhere”.
* Bhain ji ,That is a lame interpretation, and a narrow judgment which is colored with another belief Guru ji never advocates. It is not only about idol, it is about Krishana’s ( the known God)accepted birthday well known as Janam Ashtami and Guru ji says HE does not take birth on a particular day, it is not needed to be celebrated as birthday of GOD if any one says that, his/her tongue  should be burnt. Idol thing comes after that, then Guru ji   addresses the stone and image of **Krishna**. When we talk about incarnation of God, we do not need any special dictionary, God just doesn’t take birth individually and HIS being every where should not be mixed with God incarnation, it is that simple, one needs not to be  science scholar to understand that or to quote old scriptures. I have read given quotes from GGS Ji, not a single one of them supports that Guru ji used “Sach, Satt”( truth, reality) words with Hindu devtas. These words : sach, Satt” are about reality( if it is used, it is all about His sargun Sroop in totality, not in any particular(Asa dee Vaar),  Yes,it is  used for GOD.  Were they reality or not, Gurbani doesn’t care about that because important is Guru Message, rest is immaterial. If we go by contrary to Gurbani  and accept them reality, idol worshiping is as valid as God worshiping, here is the idea if we Sikhs consider them reality and their influence( though it is  contrary to Gurbani.) Here is the point. God takes birth, he took birth in the form of Krisshna and Rama, shiva etc, the idols are just symbols, worship is not done to stones but to the power behind the symbols. Therefore that worship is also of GOD who takes birth time to time to solve worldly problems as per Hindu thought. Now going with this philosophy of reality of devtas which is stressed again and again by using Gurbani in a wrong context, this way, Guru Message comes under question! Why to be critic of a idol then?, it is just a symbol, attention is towards His incarnation-Him, there fore it is alright to do what is being done in context of idol worshiping. Why then Guru ji just started questioning them? Did Guru ji fail to understand symbolism?  In fact,Truth goes behind it, it is not Guru ji's fault, Guru ji is very clear, it is old Hindu nostalgia of the converts (from Hinduism) that hangs over centuries and will continue as per His Hukm. Guru ji actually made it clear that only HIM the source of all should be worshiped  not His creation( realty or not), seek help from Him who creates every thing, no need to be in duality, there are millions like Ram or Krishna, some are known and some are not even  known to us, just don’t bother about them, stick to Him, listen to Guru message only and  be worthy of Him, those who are just like beggars at HIS door, why to waste time on them. Gurmat is very clear, Gurbani uses a lot of prevailed words related to customs, devtas and other things  but only as references, period. Nothing is more there. Who were they, were they actually there? Gurbani never uses any word that can verify their reality at all. It was a only way of enlightening people who were exposed to only these  customs, Devtas and imaginative stories.*
ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ 
sunnahu oupajae dhas avathaaraa ||
From the Primal Void, the ten incarnations welled up.
  t is undeniable that Gurbani makes a point to recognize and list the ten incarnations/avataars, ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ as deriving from the Primal Void. These are the ten incarnations/avataars of Vishnu as creative principle manifesting the Jyot of the God as deriving from the Absolute Parabrahm nirguna.
ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||
Vishnu is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?

ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||
Vishnu is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?

Quote 'Gurbani makes it clear the Hindu devas and the incarnations are a reality and serve a creative purpose in manifesting the nirgun in perceivable form.
*It does not say they were reality, Guru ji is saying that the one( Vishnu) who is already punished by HIM by putting him incarnations how can he save any one. That Guru Vaak does not say”Eh Sach hai or Satt  Hai” It  could be imaginative reality. Guru ji used these words, “ dhavla, **Ganges**, ajrail frishta(esriel angel), chitrgupt, dharm raj but does Guru ji believe in them? or is he saying that  they are reality but he just does not accept them? There is bhai santokh Singh, interprets Gurbani keeping Vedas his base for that, he himself contradicts his own meaning. It happens when Gurbani is used for own personal views. Gurbani is very clear, following are more  references but all Sikhs know Guru ji doesn’t believe in all of them, if they are used as references, it doesn’t mean they are reality*
Page 315, Line 4
ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਤਿਲ ਪੀੜੇ ਘਾਣੀ ॥੨੭॥
अजराईलु फरेसता तिल पीड़े घाणी ॥२७॥
Ajrā*īl farėsṯā ṯil pīṛė gẖāṇī. ||27||
Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, shall crush them like sesame seeds in the oil-press. ||27||
*Guru Arjan Dev*

ਧੌਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੂਤੁ ॥
धौलु धरमु दइआ का पूतु ॥
Ḏẖoul ḏẖaram ḏa*i*ā kā pūṯ.
The mythical bull is Dharma, the son of compassion;(Japji)
ਪੰਨਾ 6, ਸਤਰ 6[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]ਗਾਵਹਿ [/FONT]ਚਿਤੁ [/FONT]ਗੁਪਤੁ [/FONT]ਲਿਖਿ [/FONT]ਜਾਣਹਿ [/FONT]ਲਿਖਿ [/FONT]ਲਿਖਿ [/FONT]ਧਰਮੁ [/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰੇ [/FONT]॥
[/FONT]गावहि [/FONT]चितु [/FONT]गुपतु [/FONT]लिखि [/FONT]जाणहि [/FONT]लिखि [/FONT]लिखि [/FONT]धरमु [/FONT]वीचारे [/FONT]॥
 [/FONT]  Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇeh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖārė.
Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.

*Guru ji expresses his ideas by referring the old ones, that is the purpose of  all references used in GGS Ji, nothing more.*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> _Tragedy of all is this that to whom Guru ji spoke so clearly and openly are engulfed with tons of loads of philosophy which was proved to be of no value by Guru Ji in this search._


While spirituality is something which unfolds with ease and according to karam, Sikhism isn't "anti-philosophy."  It's always a surprise to me that Sikhs will pursue advanced studies, medicine, law, business degrees, but when it comes to Sikhism, many can't explain the most basic concepts.  So I disagree with you that philosophy and katha are of "no value."  

Let me explain something.  When a person tries to explain a spiritual experience in words, every word he speaks is a step away from that experience.  Every word is a step away from the intimacy because it begins to involve concepts of the mind, mental constructs to explain what is perceived psychologically, emotionally, and with the spiritual element.

This doesn't mean that learning spiritual concepts is a waste of time or without value.  I don't agree with anti-intellectualism as it tends to promote cultic philosophies based on blind faith rather than investigation.  This is the problem with religion today, many just blindly follow, and this lack of insight, lack of investigation hinders experience.  Just as you wouldn't send an untrained, unprepared, unbriefed soldier into the field of battle, so you would not send an unprepared Sikh and expect him to encounter the many philosophies and religions with only defensive reaction and not well-reasoned, insightful knowledge.  I think we invest so much into pursuits to make money, and not enough to be able to intelligently discuss Sikhism.




> _Logic never works in spiritual pursuit, the high spiritual experience stops dividing His creation on the basis of History or any man made assertion._


The logic I was referring to was that multiplicity in manifest form doesn't make sense to the human brain as Oneness.  And because of this, Abrahamic belief systems cannot reconcile that the Supreme Oneness could be pervading in His creation or manifest within it as God-conscious realization.  You seem not to be able to digest that previous forms of spirituality in past ages served a function of genuine religion and spirituality.  You seem not to be able to reconcile how the Parabrahm could be manifest in an avatara if that avatara was caught in the three gunas.  Yet I've explained that anything manifest in physical form is by nature caught in the three qualities of Maya and duality.  It negates that the Supreme Uncreated God could ever be manifest in materiality, and is forever separate from His creation.  Yet Gurbani clearly states:

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕੀਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ ॥ 
maaeiaa mohu maerai prabh keenaa aapae bharam bhulaaeae ||
Emotional attachment to Maya is created by my God; He Himself misleads us through illusion and doubt.

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਹੀ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਏ ॥ 
manamukh karam karehi nehee boojhehi birathhaa janam gavaaeae ||
The self-willed manmukhs perform their actions, but they do not understand; they waste away their lives in vain.  

ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਕਰਮਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਏ ॥੧॥ 
gurabaanee eis jag mehi chaanan karam vasai man aaeae ||1||
Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p.  67​

If the God has created the Maya and the illusion, why is He punishing?  What could be the created design?  


ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਜਿਮੁ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਾਏ ॥ 
Bhinn bhinn jim(i) deh dharaae||
According as the Lord adopted different forms,   

ਤਿਮੁ ਤਿਮੁ ਕਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥ 
Tim(u) tim(u) kar avtaar kahaae||
In the same manner, he became renowned as different incarnations;

ਪਰਮ ਰੂਪ ਜੋ ਏਕ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ 
Param roop jo ek kahaayo||
But whatever is the Supreme form of the Lord;

ਅੰਤ ਸਭੋ ਤਿਹ ਮੱਧਿ ਮਿਲਾਯੋ ॥੩੩॥ 
Ant sabho tih maddh(i) milaayo||33||
Ultimately all merged in Him.33.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 423​

So ultimately existance is not a punishment.  You can be punished for evil deeds because people will receive in like measure what they give as law of karam.  But the goal of life is not the Abrahamic conception of sin, unworthiness and punishment by a Supreme Being.  I think Gurbani is very clear that the imperceivable God made Himself perceivable in many forms and ways in order to be a Light which shines in darkness.  Otherwise how would Vaheguru guide the creation back to the Primal source?  And if you can accept what Gurbani says that the God came in form as avataar, which means more than simply "incarnation."  We are all incarnations, and we all have Parabrahm pervading in our hearts.  But we are not all avataars.  An avataar is an incarnation which is the manifestation of the One God on the earth in sargun saroop so the darkness of the sansaara may be pierced by the Jyot of God.  Both Shabad Guru Ji and Dasam Granth bani talk of 10 incarnations specifically.  You claim this is mere story-telling using mythological references to a discarded Hindu religion.  That's your right to believe.  



ਬੇਦ ਗਿਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਹਟਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਗਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਾ । 
bayd girand gur hati hai jisu|agi bhavajal paari utaaraa|
From that knowledge of the Vedas which gets man across the world ocean even the knowledgeable people get away.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਧਰੇ ਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ । 
satigur baajhu n bujheeai jicharu dharay n prabhu avataaraa|
So long God does not descend on earth in the form of true Guru, no mystery can be understood.  

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਇਕੁ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਬਣਜਾਰਾ । 
gur paramaysaru iku hai sachaa saahu jagatu banajaaraa|
The Guru and God are one; He is the true master and the whole world craves for Him. 

ਚੜੈ ਸੂਰ ਮਿਟਿ ਜਾਇ ਅੰਧਾਰਾ ॥੧੭॥ 
charhai soor miti jaai andhaaraa ॥17॥
He rises like sun and the darkness is dispelled.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 17 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas​


While there may be at least 3 places where Gurbani speaks specifically of mythology in relation to the Bull:


ਧੌਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੂਤੁ ॥ 
dhhaal dhharam dhaeiaa kaa pooth ||
The mythical bull is Dharma, the son of compassion;

ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਰਖਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੂਤਿ ॥ 
santhokh thhaap rakhiaa jin sooth ||
this is what patiently holds the earth in its place.
~SGGS Ji p. 3​


It is equally clear that this is not mere reference to a story, but Guruji is teaching that with the symbolism of the Dharma Bull, the compassionate Dharma holds the Earth in it's place.  So the teaching is very meaningful, even with the clearly stated reference to a mythological Bull.

The Bull is called Nandi, and it is a mount of Shiva.  And in each age, the Bull is losing one of it's legs until the time of Kaliyug when the Dharma Bull is standing on only one leg.

Guruji didn't tell this story of the mythological Bull because there was no truth in it.  He told the symbolic story precisely because there was truth in it, as we see confirmed by the analysis of Bhai Gurdas Ji vaaran:


ਸਤਜੁਗ ਦਾ ਅਨਿਆਉ ਵੇਖਿ ਧਉਲ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੋਆ ਉਡੀਣਾ । 
satajug daa aniaau vaykhi dhaul dharamu hoaa udeenaa|
Seeing the injustice of Satyug, dharma in the form of a bull got sad. 

ਸੁਰਪਤਿ ਨਰਪਤਿ ਚਕ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਖਿ ਨ ਹੰਘਨਿ ਬਲ ਮਤਿ ਹੀਣਾ । 
surapati narapati chakravai rakhi n hanghani bal mati heenaa|
Even the king of gods, Indr, and other kings with vast empires, engrossed egoism, devoid of power and wisdom could not sust 

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਖਿਸਿਆ ਪੈਰੁ ਇਕੁ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਜਗੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਪਤੀਣਾ । 
traytay khisiaa pairu iku hom jag jagu daapi pateenaa|
In Treta- its one foot slipped and now religious people started feeling satisfied by mere performance of the ceremonies of 

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਦੁਇ ਪਗ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਚਾਰ ਪਖੰਡੁ ਅਲੀਣਾ । 
duaapuri dui pag dharam day poojaa chaar pakhandu aleenaa|
In Dvapar remained only two feet of dharma and now people began to remain absorbed only ritualistic worship.   

ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਰਹਿਆ ਪੈਰ ਇਕੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਧਰਮ ਅਧੀਣਾ । 
kalijug rahiaa pair iku hoi nimaanaa dharam adheenaa|
In Kaliyug, the dharma has only one feet and consequently has become quite feeble.  

ਮਾਣੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਰਗਟ ਪਰਬੀਣਾ । 
maanu nimaanai satiguroo saadhasangati paragat parabeenaa|
True Guru, the power of the powerless, has made it (dharma) manifest by and through creating the holy Congregations.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਧਰਮ ਸਪੂਰਣੁ ਰੀਣਾ ॥੧੮॥ 
guramukh dharam sapooranu reenaa ॥18॥
The gurmukhs have brought to perfection the dharma earlier reduced to dust.
~ Vaar 23 Pauri 18 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

Does Gurbani tell us untruths which we can disregard or disbelieve?  Clearly here Gurbani tells the truth of degradation of spirituality through the ages by clearly using the analogy of the Dharma Bull.  Are we free to infer that every story or reference is mythological because this story of the Dharma Bull is?  Are we able to disregard as unnecessary what is claimed mere story-telling of Guru?  Are we to infer all this is needless superstition, fake Ages, fake spiritual teaching because past religion spoke symbolically of profound truths which many today can't even recognize?

I say no.


ਇਸੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
eis kalijug mehi karam dhharam n koee ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, no one is interested in good karma, or Dharmic faith. 

ਕਲੀ ਕਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਚੰਡਾਲ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
kalee kaa janam chanddaal kai ghar hoee ||
This Dark Age was born in the house of evil.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧੦॥੩੦॥ 
naanak naam binaa ko mukath n hoee ||4||10||30||
O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, no one is liberated. ||4||10||30||
~SGGS Ji p. 161​

I do not believe the many references to yugas in Gurbani are mythological and untrue, meaningless superstitions to be ignored and discarded because we don't understand.  I don't believe the places where Gurbani talks about the physical universe being made from purusha and pakrti and three forms of Maya and illusion of duality as false, mythological or superstition either.  I do believe the spiritual teaching is very high and indeed encompasses and surpasses the wisdom of the Vedas.



> _Guru ji using all accepted pilgrimage and rejecting their importance in concept of purity of soul. Guru ji has to say about all these popular names, nothing more than that_


I'm afraid I cannot agree.  The wisdom and insight are too profound.  There is a problem with translation into English using the word mythology, because it has come to imply untruth, superstition, blind ritualism.  And this negates the other variant definition which means symbolic truth.  I cannot believe, however convenient to promote an ideological or political view, that Gurbani contains mere references, deliberate falsehoods and fables, or anything which is a lie to be discarded as useless information.  If the information is in Gurbani, we should strive to uncover it's deep wisdom and symbolic meanings.  



> _By the Christian era, the Greco-Roman world had started to use the term "myth" (Greek μῦθος, muthos) to mean "fable, fiction, lie"; as a result, early Christian writers used "myth" with this meaning.[14] This use of the term "myth" passed into popular usage.
> 
> In this article, the term "myth" is used in a scholarly sense, detached from popular associations with falsehood.
> 
> By the Christian era, the Greco-Roman world had started to use the term "myth" (Greek μῦθος, muthos) to mean "fable, fiction, lie"; as a result, early Christian writers used "myth" with this meaning.[14] This use of the term "myth" passed into popular usage.
> 
> In this article, the term "myth" is used in a scholarly sense, detached from popular associations with falsehood.
> 
> Myths were told to explain the creation and organization of the universe, fashion of man, and establishment of civilization. It teaches people lessons and it had to do with history & culture, the characters and the temper which produced them.
> Mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_



I have read so many accounts where scholars make outrageous claims.  They say these stories are fabrications to please the Hindu population.  They are denied to have Vedic background.  They are all claimed to be myth and superstition to be discarded.  They are called useless, worthless.  It's claimed these deities and yogic terms don't mean what they say they mean, that Guruji wrote them but meant something else.  It's like intellectual gyrations to deny the obvious.  At the end of the day, the terms still mean what they say.  And it is equally clear that Gurbani talks about many deities but that all are subordinate to the nirgun uncreated Parabrahm...but so do the Hindu scriptures say the same thing.  Rather than posing Sikh identity on something as tenuous as deliberate mistranslation or ignorance of Vedic teaching, people should clearly evaluate the commonalities and the differences.  It's clear that  Sikhism is not Hinduism and does not promote worship of the deities.  But it's equally clear Gurbani must be interpreted with some degree of Vedic understanding which the terminology and concepts are rooted in.  And I believe this is why Gurbani says:


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​
I mean even the concept of the Naad is Vedic.



ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ । 
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him. 

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ । 
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer. 

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ । 
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥ 
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~ Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
​

What does this vaaran mean?  It means that unlike Abrahamic interpretations, Bhagavan Krishna was not a false god, an evil idol or something to be discarded, feared, insulted, denied, repressed, removed, or punished.  It means this was a valid Light/manifestation of the Supreme Parabrahm for past ages.  And while these forms of religion did fall down in the preceding yugs, and while not capable of giving the Supreme mukti like the Naam, these forms of spirituality in their true sense, not the blind ritualism and worshipping of stones are to be respected as a valid spiritual path for those who follow them.  If you add to these kind of interpretations the fact that Guruji sacrificed Himself to torture and death to protect Hindu's right to freely worship and keep Hindu identity, it becomes impossible to insult, tear down, disregard or invalidate the proper form of Hindu spirituality without the context that in this age all forms of spirituality have fallen away from the original Light.




> _Bhain ji ,That is a lame interpretation, and a narrow judgment which is colored with another belief Guru ji never advocates. It is not only about idol, it is about Krishana’s ( the known God)accepted birthday well known as Janam Ashtami and Guru ji says HE does not take birth on a particular day, it is not needed to be celebrated as birthday of GOD if any one says that, his/her tongue should be burnt. Idol thing comes after that, then Guru ji addresses the stone and image of Krishna. When we talk about incarnation of God, we do not need any special dictionary, God just doesn’t take birth individually and HIS being every where should not be mixed with God incarnation, it is that simple_



Yes Guruji is correcting not to miss the correct spiritual message by being caught in the age of blind ritualism without proper understanding.  Special birthdays etc are just improper worship of the deity which is fallen into time and corruption, and not the Supreme.  But Gurbani doesn't say Hindu religion is worthless and we should now convert them to be Sikhs since we have "the One true God."  That's so Abrahamic.  There is no need at all for Sikhs to go through gyrations trying to hide, invalidate or erase the Vedic teaching found in Gurbani.  It's so clear Guruji was completely at peace with Hindu religion.  He doesn't insult or invalidate it.  He explains deep truth and gives spiritual insight and correction to why it cannot be the highest religion of this age.



ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.  

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.

ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.  

ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.  

ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.  

ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ 
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth. 

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​

Nothing here says fake, unreal, discarded, meaningless.  These Deities are clearly forms of religion with a certain Light of God for past ages.  And equally clear only the Naam and Guru's Shabad can liberate us in the Kalyug and take us to the limits of the nirgun saroop of Parabrahm.



> _listen to Guru message only and be worthy of Him, those who are just like beggars at HIS door, why to waste time on them. Gurmat is very clear, Gurbani uses a lot of prevailed words related to customs, devtas and other things but only as references, period. Nothing is more there. Who were they, were they actually there? Gurbani never uses any word that can verify their reality at all. It was a only way of enlightening people who were exposed to only these customs, Devtas and imaginative stories._



Duality is not fake.  Kaliyug is not fake.  The Naad and Shabad are not fake.  The three gunas are not fake.  Reincarnation is not fake.  Heaven and Hell are not fake.  Dharamraj, chitr and Gupt, jams are not fake.  The devas and asuras are not fake.  The Raja Jog of the Naam is not fake.  The 7 chakrs and the 10 doors are not fake.  The nirgun and sargun are not fake.  The avatars are not fake.  Karam and dharam is not fake.  Maya and mukti are not fake.  Darshan of Vaheguru is not fake.  Samaadhi and the Fourth state of consciousness are not fake.

What exactly do you think is fake?  The whole Gurbani?  Or just certain parts?


~bhul chak maaf


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## Sikh80

Dear Harhas ji,

You have been talking of tri-gunas of nature [sato/rajo/tamo].What are these and how exactly they entrap us in this world of human affairs.?
 It is also talked of in Hindu philosophies as well. How do you explain and as to how these are responsible for keeping us in Karmic  cycle.?
Kindly throw some light.

regards.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 ji

The three qualities or gunas of themselves are not evil, but in fact are within creation. Guru Amardas explains,

ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਸੂਤਿ ਜਮਾਇਆ ॥maaeiaa maaee thrai gun parasooth jamaaeiaa || Maya, the mother, gave birth to the three gunas, the three qualities,

 He also says, 

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਭਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੋ ਤੂ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
                   thrai gun sabh thaerae thoo aapae karathaa jo thoo karehi s hoee ||
                   The three qualities are all Yours, O Lord; You Yourself created them. Whatever You do, comes to pass.

 
The problem comes from our enslavement to them. Guru Nanak Dev ji  explains that they entangle us in our world keeping us far from the Lord. 

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੂਰੇ ॥ thrihu gun oupajai binasai dhoorae ||Trapped by the three qualities, people come and go, far from the Lord.

We remain enslaved by delusion and doubt. Guru Amar Das: 

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥thrihu gunaa vich sehaj n paaeeai thrai gun bharam bhulaae ||In the three qualities, intuitive balance is not obtained; the three qualities lead to delusion and doubt.

 Guru Arjan Dev ji explains the problem 

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਮਹਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ thrihu gun mehi varathai sansaaraa || The world is under the influence of the three qualities. 

He says that we become entangled in the gunas  mistaking them for the more perfect goal of keeping the medicine of the Naam on our tongues and drinking the ambrosial Nectar. The gunas prompt us to look outward rather than within. We must move beyond them. 

Gurbani discusses this problem in more than 100 places. I copied this shabad (part) from Guru Arjan Dev ji on Ang 374.  It shows how we can be torn away from our inner journey because we look in the wrong places.

We remain slaves to the delusional mind. 
 
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਇਕਤੁਕੇ ੨ ॥ 
aasaa mehalaa 5 eikathukae 2 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Ik-Tukas 2 :


ਜੀਵਤ ਦੀਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ 
jeevath dheesai this sarapar maranaa ||
One who is seen to be alive, shall surely die.


 ਮੁਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਰਹਣਾ ॥੧॥ 
muaa hovai this nihachal rehanaa ||1||
But he who is dead shall remain ever-lasting. ||1||


 ਜੀਵਤ ਮੁਏ ਮੁਏ ਸੇ ਜੀਵੇ ॥ 
jeevath mueae mueae sae jeevae ||
Those who die while yet alive, shall through this death, live on.

 ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਵਖਧੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
har har naam avakhadhh mukh paaeiaa gur sabadhee ras anmrith peevae ||1|| rehaao ||
They place the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, as medicine in their mouths, and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, they drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||Pause||


ਕਾਚੀ ਮਟੁਕੀ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਨਾਸਾ ॥ 
kaachee mattukee binas binaasaa ||
The clay pot of the body shall be broken.


ਜਿਸੁ ਛੂਟੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥ 
jis shhoottai thrikuttee this nij ghar vaasaa ||2||
One who has eliminated the three qualities dwells in the home of his inner self. ||2||


 ਊਚਾ ਚੜੈ ਸੁ ਪਵੈ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥ 
oochaa charrai s pavai paeiaalaa ||
One who climbs high, shall fall into the nether regions of the underworld.


ਧਰਨਿ ਪੜੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਕਾਲਾ ॥੩॥ 
dhharan parrai this lagai n kaalaa ||3||
One who lies upon the ground, shall not be touched by death. ||3||


 ਭ੍ਰਮਤ ਫਿਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
bhramath firae thin kishhoo n paaeiaa ||
Those who continue to wander around, achieve nothing.

ਸੇ ਅਸਥਿਰ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥ 

sae asathhir jin gur sabadh kamaaeiaa ||4||
Those who practice the Guru's Teachings, become steady and stable. ||4||

The three gunas bind us to Maya, and in that state we wander from one situation to the other, instead of making the choice to become steady and stable, to attain intuitive ease. Guru Amar Das lays out for us this choice:

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae || The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.

So the answer to your question. Trapped by the three gunas, we are trapped in our minds, by ego and the by-products of mun. These have relevance in the world but are not the answer. They are poison if we cannot move beyond them to higher consciousness. Then we live in our own minds. Trapped by the three gunas, we are trapped in Maya, and are subject to the cycle of birth and death.


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## Sikh80

Thanks aad ji for such a lucid and lovely explanation. i could not have longed for more. The fourth stage is then 'sahaj'.

correct me please.


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## spnadmin

The 4th stage, beyond the 3 gunas, higher consciousness, is dwelling in the home of the inner self, when one achieves bliss through union with Him. Sehaj in Gurbani.

Believe it or not, "sehaj" is a loaded word... as I have discovered in recent research.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

We are enslaved to the three qualities of Maya, material manifestation so long as we are embodied and perceive the world of forms and illusions as the ultimate reality.  Pakrti refers to properties of matter as well as mind.  We are in bondage because we perceive reality through the instrumentation of the senses which Gurbani says are diseased.

ਸਹਜਿ  (sehaj) means intuitive, or that which is grapsed by intuition, without mental or physical effort, by Guru's grace.

sach karanee dhae paaeeai dhar ghar mehal piaar ||
By true actions, this human body is obtained, and the door within ourselves which leads to the Mansion of the Beloved, is found. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨੁ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥ 
guramukh man samajhaaeeai aatham raam beechaar ||2||
The Gurmukhs train their minds to contemplate the Lord, the Supreme Soul. ||2|| 

ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਈਅਹਿ ਆਸ ਅੰਦੇਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
thribidhh karam kamaaeeahi aas andhaesaa hoe ||
By actions committed under the influence of the three qualities, hope and anxiety are produced.  

ਕਿਉ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੁਟਸੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
kio gur bin thrikuttee shhuttasee sehaj miliai sukh hoe ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone be released from these three qualities? Through intuitive wisdom, we meet with Him and find peace.
~SGGS Ji p. 18
​

Sehaj is the quality of the process, as is bairaag.  But sehaj is not the fourth state.  The fourth state derives out of sehaj, and out of bairaag.  It is experienced through piaar and samaadhi.


ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਮਹਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥੬॥ 
chouthhae padh mehi sehaj hai guramukh palai paae ||6||
In the fourth state, there is intuitive balance; the Gurmukhs gather it in. ||6||
~SGGS Ji p. 68​


ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ 
sehaj milai miliaa paravaan ||
That union with the Lord is acceptable, which is united in intuitive poise.

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
naa this maran n aavan jaan ||
Thereafter, one does not die, and does not come and go in reincarnation.
~SGGS Ji p. 686​


ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
bhaaee rae gur bin sehaj n hoe ||
O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, intuitive balance is not obtained.

ਸਬਦੈ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸਹਜੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
sabadhai hee thae sehaj oopajai har paaeiaa sach soe ||1|| rehaao ||
Through the Word of the Shabad, intuitive peace and poise wells up, and that True Lord is obtained. ||1||Pause||  

ਸਹਜੇ ਗਾਵਿਆ ਥਾਇ ਪਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੈ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਾਦਿ ॥ 
sehajae gaaviaa thhaae pavai bin sehajai kathhanee baadh ||
That which is sung intuitively is acceptable; without this intuition, all chanting is useless.

ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਊਪਜੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ਬੈਰਾਗਿ ॥ 
sehajae hee bhagath oopajai sehaj piaar bairaag ||
In the state of intuitive balance, devotion wells up. In intuitive balance, love is balanced and detached.  

ਸਹਜੈ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੈ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਬਾਦਿ ॥੨॥ 
sehajai hee thae sukh saath hoe bin sehajai jeevan baadh ||2||
In the state of intuitive balance, peace and tranquility are produced. Without intuitive balance, life is useless. ||2|| 

ਸਹਜਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇ ॥ 
sehaj saalaahee sadhaa sadhaa sehaj samaadhh lagaae ||
In the state of intuitive balance, praise the Lord forever and ever. With intuitive ease, embrace Samaadhi.
~SGGS Ji p. 68​


So what is ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ, the fourth state?




> _In Hindu philosophy, turiya (or chaturtha) is a state of pure consciousness, or the experience of ultimate reality and truth. It is a fourth state of consciousness that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti)...
> 
> The first two states are not true experiences of reality and truth because of their dualistic natures of subject and object, self and not-self, ego and non-ego. In the third state, dreamless sleep, one is not conscious of external or internal objects; however, that does not mean consciousness is not present there. It is like saying 'I don't see anything in darkness'. The recognition that I don't see anything is what I 'see'. So also in dreamless sleep, one is not conscious of anything and the very fact that this statement is true proves the existence of consciousness during deep sleep.
> 
> Consciousness is the constant factor in all the three states, and it is unaffected by the presence or absence of objects. Consciousness itself does not require to be revealed by another consciousness, as it is self-revealed. While everything is presented to consciousness and is revealed by it, consciousness itself is not presented to anything else. It is never an object in relation to another subject. It is that which underlies both subject and object. It is the fourth, the turiya, the brahman.
> 
> The Mandukya Upanishad defines turiya as:
> 
> "The fourth state is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world."
> 
> Turiya represents consciousness free from material influence. The idea is that consciousness, of which the atman is constituted, exists in our wakeful state of material experience, as it continues during sleep. In sleep we dream and experience the mental realm, whereas during our waking state the physical plane has more bearing on our lives.
> 
> Upon awakening from deep dreamless sleep, one remembers existing in that condition. This is evidenced by the common expression, 'I slept well!' One cannot remember something one has no experience of.
> 
> Thus, in deep sleep when intelligence is transformed by tamo guna, the self continues to exist, as it does when intelligence is transformed by rajo guna during the dream condition and during the wakeful condition when intellect is transformed by sattva guna. The self is independent of the body and mind. If the physical and mental realms were to shut down, the self would continue to exist. This we know from our experience in deep sleep. Realizing this involves entering the turiya.
> 
> The Bhagavata Purana, verse 11.15.16[3] describes Bhagavan as turiyakhye (the fourth), defined in the Bhagavad Gita, verse 7.3 as:[4]
> 
> "Within the material world the Lord appears as the three Visnus (gunas). The original form of the Lord is another form still. He is beyond material nature and thus known as the fourth."
> 
> The Gaudiya Vedantins are interested in turyatitah gopala (Lord Gopala beyond fourth dimension, Gopala Tapani Upanishad 2.96). This is the fifth dimension in which one comes face to face with Gopala Krishna in Braj (Vraja Dhama), from adhoksaja to aprakrta, or from God consciousness to Krishna consciousness.
> 
> "The fourth dimension, turiya, is the ground of our existence and the goal of all transcendentalists. For the Vedanta philosophers it is perceived variously, either as undifferentiated consciousness or a relationship with the divine. Regarding the latter, Gaudiya Vedanta concludes that love is greater than ourselves, and it is the greatest aspect of God, one that he himself is motivated by. For them, the nondual consciousness of Vedanta philosophy is realized when we know that we do not belong to ourselves, what to speak of anything belonging to us. If there is any time at which we can accurately say that something belongs to us, it is when, having given ourselves in love to God, we can say that 'he is ours'."
> 
> "This is the Krsna (Krishna) conception of Godhead, one in which God appears not as God, nor finite souls as finite souls. Both interrelate intimately as lover and beloved, Krsna and his gopis, beyond any sense of each others' ontological reality, yet beyond the material illusion as well. This dimension of love of Godhead is thus justifiably termed by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas as the fifth dimension, turiya-titah (turyatita or turyatitah), the dimension of the soul's Soul."
> Turiya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_




The fourth state is the union of the lover and the Beloved.  ਮਿਲਾਇ, to merge with the Transcendant One, that is to achieve the fourth state of consciousness which surpasses the other three which are caught in bondage to forms and appearances, to the duality, to the Maya, to the illusion of sansaara, to the traps of the mind and perception.  So we are analyzing the concept of jeevan mukta, how to be liberated from the world of appearances, sansaara, and by intuition and spiritual balance with grace of Satguru achieve the state of consciousness where you will never die, because you become the One.



ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
sathagur sach prabh niramalaa sabadh milaavaa hoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||  

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥ 
sabadh milai so mil rehai jis no aapae leae milaae ||
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਕੋ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
dhoojai bhaae ko naa milai fir fir aavai jaae ||
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.
~SGGS Jip. 27​

This is related to Naam in the sense of becoming, ਅਜਪਾ ਜਾਪ, the ajapa jap, so it is to enter timelessness through intuitive ease, without effort, sehaj.


As Aad0002 points to the pauri where Gurbani says:



ਜੀਵਤ ਦੀਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ 
jeevath dheesai this sarapar maranaa ||
One who is seen to be alive, shall surely die.

ਮੁਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਰਹਣਾ ॥੧॥ 
muaa hovai this nihachal rehanaa ||1||
But he who is dead shall remain ever-lasting. ||1||

ਜੀਵਤ ਮੁਏ ਮੁਏ ਸੇ ਜੀਵੇ ॥ 
jeevath mueae mueae sae jeevae ||
Those who die while yet alive, shall through this death, live on.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਵਖਧੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
har har naam avakhadhh mukh paaeiaa gur sabadhee ras anmrith peevae ||1|| rehaao ||
They place the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, as medicine in their mouths, and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, they drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 374​

Gurbani is clearly talking about the yogic process which anciently has been used to obtain the Divine consciuousness through creating soma-amrit.



> _
> Amrita:
> 
> A sanskrit word meaning "nectar of immortality". The substance that gives the immortal life and purifies the human body in preparation for realization of the Immortal Body. Also called Soma. Amrita / Soma is secreted by the human glandular system.
> Amrita: A Spiritual Dictionary on Amrita_






> _Amrita or Amrit (Sanskrit: अमृत; Punjabi: ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ; Kannada: ಅಮೃತ; Telugu: అమృతము) is a Sanskrit word that literally means "without death", and is often referred to in texts as nectar. Corresponding to ambrosia, it has differing significance in the religions of the Indian religions.  In yogic philosophy (see yoga, Hindu philosophy) amrita is a fluid that can flow from the pituitary gland down the throat in deep states of meditation. It is considered quite a boon: some yogic texts say that one drop is enough to conquer death and achieve immortality.
> Amrita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_






> _Amrita amrita (Sanskrit) [from a not + mrita dead from the verbal root mri to die] Immortality; the water of life or immortality, the ambrosial drink or spiritual food of the gods. According to the Puranas, Ramayana, and Mahabharata, amrita is the elixir of life produced during the contest between the devas and asuras when churning the "milky sea" (the waters of life). It has been stolen many times, but as often recovered, and it "is still preserved carefully in devaloka" (Pur E 32).
> In the Vedas, amrita is applied to the mystical soma juice, which makes a new man of the initiate and enables his spiritual nature to overcome and govern the lower elements of his nature. It is beyond any guna (quality), for it is unconditioned per se (cf SD 1:348). Mystically speaking, therefore, amrita is the "drinking" of the water of supernal wisdom and the spiritual bathing in its life-giving power. It means the rising above all the unawakened or prakritic elements of the constitution, and becoming at one with and thus living in the kosmic life-intelligence-substance.
> amrita | English | Dictionary & Translation by Babylon_





> _At few places in the Gurbani, the term dasam duar has been used to denote ten organs—five sensory organs and five organs of action, i.e. jnanendriyas and karmendriyas. Says Guru Nanak: “Hukami sanjogi gari das duar, panch vasahi mili joti apar”—in the fortress of the body created in his hukam are ten doors. In this fort five subtle elements of sabda (sound), sparsa (touch), rupa (sight), rasa (taste) and grandha (smell) abide having the infinite light of the Lord in them (GG, 152). The amrit which flows at the tenth door is the essence of Divine name (nam ras) according to the Guru; it is not the physical elixir of immortality conceived by the Siddhas, nor is this amrit to be found by awakening kundalini or by practising khecari mudra; it is to be found through the Teacher’s instruction. When the Satguru is encountered then one stops from running (after the nine doors) and obtains the tenth door. Here at this door the immortalizing food (amrit bhojan), the innate sound (sahaj dhuni) is produced—dhavatu thammia satiguri miliai dasva duaru paia; tithai amrit bhojanu sahaj dhuni upajai jitu sabadi jagatu thammi rahaia (GG, 441).
> 
> 
> This wholesome spot is not outside the physical frame. The second Guru also refers to the fort (kotu) with nine doors; the tenth door is hidden (gupatu); it is closed by a hard door which can be opened by the key of the Guru’s word (GG, 954). According to Guru Amar Das, Nanak III, he alone is released who conquers his mind and who keeps it free from defilement; arriving at the tenth door, and staying there he understands all the three spheres (GG, 490).
> 
> 
> The importance of dasamdvar is of considerable theological interest. Here at the tenth door the anahad sabda (unstruck sound) is heard; here the divine drink of immortality trickles down; and here the devotee meets with the invisible and inaccessible transcendental Brahman who is described by the sages as unutterable (GG, 1002). The devotional theology of Sikhism requires that the gateway of ultimate release can open only by God’s will. The tenth door is closed with the adamantine hard door (bajar kapat) which can be opened duly with the Guru’s word. Inside the front (i.e. the body) is the tenth door, the house in the cavity (gupha ghar); in this fort nine doors have been fixed according to Divine ordinance (hukam); in the tenth door the Invisible, Unwritten, Unlimited Person shows Himself—bhitari kot gupha ghar jai nau ghar thape hukami rajai; dasvai purakhu alekhu apari ape alakhu lakhaida (GG, 1033). This is the view expressed by the founder of Sikhism and he repeats it at another place also. He says that the Establisher has established nine houses (nau ghar) or nine doors in the city of this body; the Invisible and Infinite dwells at the tenth house or tenth door (GG, 1036). The nectar-like essence (amrit ras) is dripped by the Satguru; it comes out appearing at the tenth door. The sounding of the unstruck sound announces, as it were, the manifestation of God at this door — Amrit rasu satiguru chuaia; dasavai duari pragatu hoi aia; taha anahad sabad vajahi dhuni bani sahaje sahaji samai he (GG, 1069) The Siddhas, unlike the Sikh Gurus, find the amrit by their own effort.
> Dasam Dvar - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia._





ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਘਰੁ ਦੇਖਾਇ ਦੇਇ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
ghar mehi ghar dhaekhaae dhaee so sathigur purakh sujaan ||
The True Guru is the All-knowing Primal Being; He shows us our true home within the home of the self.  

ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਧੁਨਿਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਤਹ ਬਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥ 
panch sabadh dhhunikaar dhhun theh baajai sabadh neesaan ||
The Panch Shabad, the Five Primal Sounds, resonate and resound within; the insignia of the Shabad is revealed there, vibrating gloriously.  

ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਤਹ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਹੈਰਾਨੁ ॥ 
dheep loa paathaal theh khandd manddal hairaan ||
Worlds and realms, nether regions, solar systems and galaxies are wondrously revealed.  

ਤਾਰ ਘੋਰ ਬਾਜਿੰਤ੍ਰ ਤਹ ਸਾਚਿ ਤਖਤਿ ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ॥ 
thaar ghor baajinthr theh saach thakhath sulathaan ||
The strings and the harps vibrate and resound; the true throne of the Lord is there. 

ਸੁਖਮਨ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਰਾਗੁ ਸੁਨਿ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ 
sukhaman kai ghar raag sun sunn manddal liv laae ||
Listen to the music of the home of the heart - Sukhmani, peace of mind. Lovingly tune in to His state of celestial ecstasy.

ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
akathh kathhaa beechaareeai manasaa manehi samaae ||
Contemplate the Unspoken Speech, and the desires of the mind are dissolved.  

ਉਲਟਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਭਰਿਆ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਕਤਹੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
oulatt kamal anmrith bhariaa eihu man kathahu n jaae ||
The heart-lotus is turned upside-down, and is filled with Ambrosial Nectar. This mind does not go out; it does not get distracted.

*ਅਜਪਾ ਜਾਪ*ੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
*ajapaa jaap* n veesarai aadh jugaadh samaae ||
It does not forget *the Chant which is chanted without chanting*; it is immersed in the Primal Lord God of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 1291​

Gurbani is talking of the fourth state as turiya, which means "fourth" and is a state of consciousness where even mantra flows into silence.  This leads to nirbikalpa samadhi, the samadhi which surpasses mental constructs, delusions and forms of the mind itself.  Gurbani is in many places talking about how even the Hindu devas cannot liberate you, yet the ten incarnations of Vishnu are described as avataars, Lights for certain yugs.  So why the apparent distinction?  How is a form of liberation not true liberation?  Is it to be assumed that all past religion was false religion and only Sikhism, modernly, has given the world true religion like some modern-day Islam?  Or, perhaps people are so disconnected from the terminology of the past they can no longer appreciate subtle distinctions.  The simple key is, there are different levels of liberation.  And Gurbani recognizes this.  Gurbani says clearly only the Naam gives the complete liberation in the kalyug.  The complete liberation is also described as nirbikalpa samadhi.


ਜਿਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸੋ ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥ 
jis naam ridhai so jeevan mukathaa ||
One who keeps the Naam in his heart is Jivan-mukta, liberated while yet alive.

ਜਿਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥ 
jis naam ridhai this sabh hee jugathaa ||
One who keeps the Naam in his heart knows all ways and means.  

ਜਿਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
jis naam ridhai thin no nidhh paaee ||
One who keeps the Naam in his heart obtains the nine treasures. 

ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਈ ॥੩॥ 
naam binaa bhram aavai jaaee ||3||
Without the Naam, the mortal wanders, coming and going in reincarnation. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 1156​



> _According to Raja Yoga, Samadhi is of two kinds, viz., Samprajnata and Asamprajnata. In the former, the seeds of Samskaras are not destroyed. In the latter, the Samskaras are fried or annihilated in toto. That is the reason why the former is called Sabija Samadhi (with seeds) and the latter as Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds or Samskaras)...
> 
> This is the highest form of Samadhi. This comes after Viveka-khyati or the final discrimination between Prakriti and Purusha. All the seeds or impressions are burnt by the fire of knowledge. This Samadhi brings Kaivalya or Absolute Independence. This is the culmination or climax of Yoga, or final Prasankhyana which bestows the supreme, undying peace or knowledge. The Yogi enjoys the transcendental glories of the Self and has perfect freedom from the mental life. The sense of time is replaced by a sense of Eternity.
> 
> In this Samadhi, there is neither Triputi nor Alambana. The Samskaras are fried in toto. This Samadhi alone can destroy birth end death and bring in highest knowledge and bliss.
> 
> When you get full success or perfection (Siddhi) in Raja yoga by entering into Asamprajnata Samadhi (Nirvikalpa State), all the Samskaras and Vasanas which bring on rebirths are totally fried up. All Vrittis or mental modifications that arise form the mind-lake come under restraint. The five afflictions, viz., Avidya (ignorance), Asmita (egoism), Raga-dvesha (love and hatred) and Abhinivesha (clinging to life) are destroyed and the bonds of Karma are annihilated. This Samadhi brings on highest good (Nihsreyasa) and exaltation (Abhyudaya). It gives Moksha (deliverance form the wheel of births and deaths). With the advent of the knowledge of the Self, ignorance vanishes. With the disappearance of the root-cause, viz., ignorance, egoism, etc., also disappear.
> 
> In the Asamprajnata Samadhi, all the modifications of the mind are completely restrained. All the residual Samskaras are totally fried up. This is the highest Samadhi of Raja yoga. This is also known as Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds) and Nirvikalpa Samadhi.
> Swami Sivananda on Nirbikalpa Samadhi_






> _7. Turiya / Consciousness /
> Absolute / Silence after AUM
> 
> Silence represents the permeating consciousness: After the "A," the "U," and the "M" of the OM Mantra there is Silence that is representative of the consciousness that permeates, and is all of the other levels. The name of this level of consciousness is Turiya. (All other mantras merge into the vibration of OM, and in turn, to this Silence.)
> 
> Turiya means "the fourth": Turiya literally means "the fourth," and represents that consciousness which permeates, observes, and is the other three levels. To call Turiya a "level" is not really accurate, since it is always, in fact, witness of, and at one with, the other states...
> 
> Distinction between Samadhi and Turiya: There is a fine distinction between Samadhi and Turiya. Samadhi is a dualistic style of attention, while Turiya in non-dualistic, leading one to the experience "I am That," or Self-realization. There are many objects on which one can practice Yoga Meditation and enter Samadhi, and there are Gross, Subtle, and Subtler levels of objects in which one might attain Samadhi, as well as objectless Samadhi.  However, Turiya brings one to Self-realization that, "I am a Wave in the Ocean of Bliss; I and the Ocean are One; I am Ocean; I am That".
> OM Mantra / AUM Mantra and Seven Levels of Consciousness_




~bhul chak maaf


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## spnadmin

Yes, _turiya _


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## pk70

Quote While spirituality is something which unfolds with ease and according to karam, Sikhism isn't "anti-philosophy." It's always a surprise to me that Sikhs will pursue advanced studies, medicine, law, business degrees, but when it comes to Sikhism, many can't explain the most basic concepts. So I disagree with you that philosophy and katha are of "no value." 
*First of all, my comments are in context of Guru bachan which doesn’t need to be interpreted with the help of other philosophies, however, Guru gives hint in Asa dee Vaar about what I wrote and I quoted it before , it is about studying too much doesn’t lead to the Truth, here is Guru Nanak ji, please teach him  that other philosophies are necessary to understand Sikhism. Quote”1. The more one reads and more writes, the more haughty does one become., …”2 “we may read and read and make car loads with books or pack caranans with them…Mehla 1 Asa dee Var”.*

Let me explain something. When a person tries to explain a spiritual experience in words, every word he speaks is a step away from that experience. Every word is a step away from the intimacy because it begins to involve concepts of the mind, mental constructs to explain what is perceived psychologically, emotionally, and with the spiritual element
*I agree but it can only be true in your or my case, Guru ji and Bhagatas are explicit though, so that statement doesn’t add any reason to believe your out of context references.

*This doesn't mean that learning spiritual concepts is a waste of time or without value. I don't agree with anti-intellectualism as it tends to promote cultic philosophies based on blind faith rather than investigation.
*Wait a minute, are you saying, believing in Guru bachan without studying vedic wisdom(**ur** word) or study of other faith is a blind faith in Guru ji? Should we do critical analysis of Guru ‘s views to agree with him? I don’t think so.*

   This is the problem with religion today, many just blindly follow, and this lack of insight, lack of investigation hinders experience. Just as you wouldn't send an untrained, unprepared, unbriefed soldier into the field of battle, so you would not send an unprepared Sikh and expect him to encounter the many philosophies and religions with only defensive reaction and not well-reasoned, insightful knowledge. I think we invest so much into pursuits to make money, and not enough to be able to intelligently discuss Sikhism.
*What intelligent aspect you have been debating? Hindu avtars were of high spirituality? Is that the intelligent one? Based on misunderstanding of Gurbani, you are falsely saying Gurbani accepts their reality? What kind of intelligence is this?[/FONT]**You keep ignoring crystal clear message of Guru Ji. A few are there who involve in academic discussion, rest of the Sikhs are just interested in Guru’s message, as per your claim, since they are not trained as per your demand, will they  become less Sikhs? What a new theory of understanding a religion?
*
  Quote: The logic I was referring to was that multiplicity in manifest form doesn't make sense to the human brain as Oneness. And because of this, Abrahamic belief systems cannot reconcile that the Supreme Oneness could be pervading in His creation or manifest within it as God-conscious realization. 

*That is bad, Sikhs are taught from the very start ( Jap Ji..Ram ahyaa bharpoor) that HE is every where, why they need to boggle like Abrahamic belief?*
  Quote’You seem not to be able to digest that previous forms of spirituality in past ages served a function of genuine religion and spirituality. You seem not to be able to reconcile how the Parabrahm could be manifest in an avatara if that avatara was caught in the three gunas.
*I stated many times that all were and are His sargun sroop, and any one portrayed as  grossly involved in Maya cannot be high spiritual being, it is you who keep saying otherwise. Now you tell me that I am not able to reconcile? What is the need of reconciliation, picture is clear.*


   Yet I've explained that anything manifest in physical form is by nature caught in the three qualities of Maya and duality. It negates that the Supreme Uncreated God could ever be manifest in materiality, and is forever separate from His creation. Yet Gurbani clearly states:

*Where did I disagree with you on this? Our issue is Hindu Avtara  and God’s incarnation. I proved again and again that He doesn’ take birth, yesterday just to support your own views you distorted the meaning of Fifth Nanak’s statement that God doesn’t take birth. What can I do? Accept your imaginative meanings? Here is another recommendation, please read aad0002 ji’s on “three qualities of Maya” she has explained beautifully without slipping into imaginative worlds.*

If the God has created the Maya and the illusion, why is He punishing? What could be the created design? 
ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਜਿਮੁ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਾਏ ॥ 
Bhinn bhinn jim(i) deh dharaae||
According as the Lord adopted different forms, 

ਤਿਮੁ ਤਿਮੁ ਕਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥ 
Tim(u) tim(u) kar avtaar kahaae||
*Bhain ji, just think” avtar kuhaye” means they claimed to be Avtar, it is my observation after reading all your quotes Gurbani, you have no inkling of the meaning of the quote you refer to, you just go by  reading  words like avtar, yogi,[/FONT]**yuga, Vishnu, then start jumping on conclusion, and "copy and tape it.” practice goes on  by Saying” see here is avtar, here is yoga word etc”, obviously never try to understand the context. Words change meaning in different context, just take example of words like “ shabad, Guru,Gurmukh” they change meaning in different contexts, is it hard to understand that simple thing?  Only those who understand HIS play of Maya,  also understand that staying in Maya influence, it is punishment because merging with Him cannot take place while being involved in Maya.*
* 
*

So ultimately existance is not a punishment. 
*I said incarnation is punishment, you are now discussing existence. Staying in cycle of death and birth is a punishment as per Gurbani, it states repeatedly that, those who ignore Naam, stay in this” awagoun” means cycle of death and birth, incarnation follows death there fore it is about punishment of coming and going.*
  And if you can accept what Gurbani says that the God came in form as avataar, which means more than simply "incarnation." We are all incarnations, and we all have Parabrahm pervading in our hearts. But we are not all avataars.
*Those avtars who involved in promiscuous sex activities and lost in Maya, do not rise to the level of high spirituality. One cannot enjoy lust and then claim he/she is high spiritual being. If they are called by some, it is Ok, you see, Muslims are saying, Mohammad is the last prophet, is it a reality? For them, yes, for others no, therefore that doesn’t add up to be high Truth.*

   An avataar is an incarnation which is the manifestation of the One God on the earth in sargun saroop so the darkness of the sansaara may be pierced by the Jyot of God. Both Shabad Guru Ji and Dasam Granth bani talk of 10 incarnations specifically.
*"Talk of 10 carnation", that is, I thanks Bhain ji, nothing more than that, talk doesn’t make it a reality, numerous times I wrote that Gurbani doesn’t verify about their being reality*
  . While there may be at least 3 places where Gurbani speaks specifically of mythology in relation to the Bull:
*AND, GURBANI GIVES NEW MEANING TO THE OLD WORDS. 

*
  It is equally clear that this is not mere reference to a story, but Guruji is teaching that with the symbolism of the Dharma Bull, the compassionate Dharma holds the Earth in it's place. So the teaching is very meaningful, even with the clearly stated reference to a mythological Bull.
*Thanks for accepting that it is a mythological Bull, like Ganges flowing from Shiva’s hair etc…….  It is not important if Bull is imaginative or not, Guru ji  is making clear that there is actually no bull but compassion and Dharma that holds together every thing. I wonder why do you need it to search if Bull is reality or not, I  prefer to move on with Guru ji.

*The Bull is called Nandi, and it is a mount of Shiva. And in each age, the Bull is losing one of it's legs until the time of Kaliyug when the Dharma Bull is standing on only one leg.
*Who cares? I am sticking to Guru Ji.*

 
~ Vaar 23 Pauri 18 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
* Please read last Vaak by Bhai Gurdas ji, rest is reference of prevailed stories, nothing more.
*Does Gurbani tell us untruths which we can disregard or disbelieve? Clearly here Gurbani tells the truth of degradation of spirituality through the ages by clearly using the analogy of the Dharma Bull
  .*Gurbani is using those stories to convey Guru’s own views on all this. Other thing, please never call Bhai Gurdas’s Vaaran Gurbani*.

   Are we free to infer that every story or reference is mythological because this story of the Dharma Bull is? Are we able to disregard as unnecessary what is claimed mere story-telling of Guru? Are we to infer all this is needless superstition, fake Ages, fake spiritual teaching because past religion spoke symbolically of profound truths which many today can't even recognize?
*Humbly I request, enjoy and understand the following Guru shabad in context of kal yug and its application.*
  Read Guru Nanak in Ram Kli GGS Ji 902
[/FONT]सोई [/FONT]चंदु [/FONT]चड़हि [/FONT]से [/FONT]तारे [/FONT]सोई [/FONT]दिनीअरु [/FONT]तपत [/FONT]रहै [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]So*ī cẖanḏ cẖaṛeh sė ṯārė so*ī ḏinī*ar ṯapaṯ rahai. 
[/FONT]The same moon and the same stars rise and the same sun blazes in the sky.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਉਹੀ [/FONT]ਚੰਦਰਮਾਂ [/FONT]ਅਤੇ [/FONT]ਓਹੀ [/FONT]ਨਛੱਤਰ [/FONT]ਚੜ੍ਹਦੇ [/FONT]ਹਨ [/FONT]ਅਤੇ [/FONT]ਉਹ [/FONT]ਹੀ [/FONT]ਸੂਰਜ [/FONT]ਅਸਮਾਨ ਵਿੱਚ [/FONT]ਚਮਕਦਾ [/FONT]ਹੈ। 

[/FONT]ਸਾ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਾਧਰਤੀ [/FONT]ਸੋ [/FONT]ਪਉਣੁ [/FONT]ਝੁਲਾਰੇ [/FONT]ਜੁਗ [/FONT]ਜੀਅ [/FONT]ਖੇਲੇ [/FONT]ਥਾਵ [/FONT]ਕੈਸੇ [/FONT][/FONT]॥੧॥ 
[/FONT]सा [/FONT]धरती [/FONT]सो [/FONT]पउणु [/FONT]झुलारे [/FONT]जुग [/FONT]जीअ [/FONT]खेले [/FONT]थाव [/FONT]कैसे [/FONT]॥१॥ 
[/FONT]Sā ḏẖarṯī so pa*uṇ jẖulārė jug jī*a kẖėlė thāv kaisė. ||1|| 
[/FONT]The same is the earth and the same wind blows. The age abides within the mortals. How can another place be ascribed to it?[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਉਹ [/FONT]ਹੀ [/FONT]ਜ਼ਮੀਨ [/FONT]ਹੈ [/FONT]ਅਤੇ [/FONT]ਉਹ [/FONT]ਹੀ [/FONT]ਹਵਾ [/FONT]ਵੱਗਦੀ [/FONT]ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਯੁਗ [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਆਂ [/FONT]ਦੇ [/FONT]ਅੰਦਰ [/FONT]ਵੱਸਦਾ [/FONT]ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਕੋਈ [/FONT]ਹੋਰ [/FONT]ਥਾਂ [/FONT]ਇਸ [/FONT]ਲਈ [/FONT]ਕਿਸ [/FONT]ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ [/FONT]ਨਿਰੂਪਣ [/FONT]ਕੀਤੀ ([/FONT]ਮਿਥੀ) [/FONT]ਜਾ [/FONT]ਸਕਦੀ [/FONT]ਹੈ?[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਜੀਵਨ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੀਵਨਤਲਬ [/FONT]ਨਿਵਾਰਿ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]जीवन [/FONT]तलब [/FONT]निवारि [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]Jīvan ṯalab nivār. 
[/FONT]Shed thou thy desire to remain alive.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਤੂੰ [/FONT]ਜੀਉਂਦੇ [/FONT]ਰਹਿਣ [/FONT]ਦੀ [/FONT]ਆਪਣੀ [/FONT]ਖਾਹਿਸ਼ [/FONT]ਨੂੰ [/FONT]ਤਿਆਗ [/FONT]ਦੇ। 

[/FONT]ਹੋਵੈ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹੋਵੈਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਕਰਹਿ [/FONT]ਧਿਙਾਣਾ [/FONT]ਕਲਿ [/FONT]ਲਖਣ [/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰਿ [/FONT]॥੧॥ [/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]होवै [/FONT]परवाणा [/FONT]करहि [/FONT]धिङाणा [/FONT]कलि [/FONT]लखण [/FONT]वीचारि [/FONT]॥१॥ [/FONT]रहाउ [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]Hovai parvāṇā karahi ḏẖińāṇā kal lakẖaṇ vīcẖār. ||1|| rahā*o. 
[/FONT]He who plays the tyrant is approved. Deem this to be the surest sign of the Darkage. Pause.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਜੋ [/FONT]ਜੁਲਮ [/FONT]ਕਰਦਾ [/FONT]ਹੈ [/FONT]ਉਹ [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੀਕ [/FONT]ਹੋ [/FONT]ਜਾਂਦਾ [/FONT]ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਇਸ [/FONT]ਨੂੰ [/FONT]ਕਾਲੇ [/FONT]ਯੁਗ [/FONT]ਦੀ [/FONT]ਪੱਕੀ [/FONT]ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ [/FONT]ਜਾਣ। [/FONT]ਠਹਿਰਾਓ। 

[/FONT]ਕਿਤੈ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਿਤੈਦੇਸਿ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਆਇਆ [/FONT]ਸੁਣੀਐ [/FONT]ਤੀਰਥ [/FONT]ਪਾਸਿ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਬੈਠਾ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]कितै [/FONT]देसि [/FONT]न [/FONT]आइआ [/FONT]सुणीऐ [/FONT]तीरथ [/FONT]पासि [/FONT]न [/FONT]बैठा [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]Kiṯai ḏės na ā*i*ā suṇī*ai ṯirath pās na baiṯẖā. 
[/FONT]The Darkage is not heard visiting any country or sitting at any shrine.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਕਲਯੁਗ [/FONT]ਕਿਸੇ [/FONT]ਮੁਲਕ [/FONT]ਵਿੱਚ [/FONT]ਆਇਆ [/FONT]ਜਾਂ [/FONT]ਕਿਸੇ ਧਰਮ [/FONT]ਅਸਥਾਨ [/FONT]ਤੇ [/FONT]ਬੈਠਾ [/FONT]ਹੋਇਆ [/FONT]ਸੁਣਿਆਂ [/FONT]ਨਹੀਂ [/FONT]ਜਾਣਾ। 

[/FONT]ਦਾਤਾ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਾਤਾਦਾਨੁ [/FONT]ਕਰੇ [/FONT]ਤਹ [/FONT]ਨਾਹੀ [/FONT]ਮਹਲ [/FONT]ਉਸਾਰਿ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਬੈਠਾ [/FONT][/FONT]॥੨॥ 
[/FONT]दाता [/FONT]दानु [/FONT]करे [/FONT]तह [/FONT]नाही [/FONT]महल [/FONT]उसारि [/FONT]न [/FONT]बैठा [/FONT]॥२॥ 
[/FONT]Ḏāṯā ḏān karė ṯah nāhī mahal usār na baiṯẖā. ||2|| 
 [/FONT]  It is not there, where the man of bounty practises charity, nor it is seated in the mansion, built by it. 
ਇਹ ਉਥੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਿਥੇ ਦਾਨੀ ਪੁਰਸ਼ ਪੁੱਨ ਦਾਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਮੰਦਰ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਅੰਦਰ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ। 

ਜੇ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੇਕੋ [/FONT]ਸਤੁ [/FONT]ਕਰੇ ਸੋ [/FONT]ਛੀਜੈ [/FONT]ਤਪ [/FONT]ਘਰਿ [/FONT]ਤਪੁ [/FONT]ਨ [/FONT]ਹੋਈ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
जे को सतु करे सो छीजै तप घरि तपु न होई ॥ 
Jė ko saṯ karė so cẖẖījai ṯap gẖar ṯap na ho*ī. 
If anyone practises truth, he is frustrated and prosperity visits not the home of a penitent. 
ਜੇਕਰ ਕੋਈ ਜਣਾ ਸੱਚ ਕਮਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਖੱਜਲ ਖੁਆਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਤਪੱਸਵੀ ਦੇ ਧਾਮ ਅੰਦਰ ਤਪਤੇਜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ। 

ਜੇ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੇਕੋ [/FONT]ਨਾਉ [/FONT]ਲਏ [/FONT]ਬਦਨਾਵੀ [/FONT]ਕਲਿ [/FONT]ਕੇ [/FONT]ਲਖਣ [/FONT]ਏਈ [/FONT][/FONT]॥੩॥ 
जे को नाउ लए बदनावी कलि के लखण एई ॥३॥ 
Jė ko nā*o la*ė baḏnāvī kal kė lakẖaṇ ė*ī. ||3|| 
If any one utters the Lord's Name, he is disreputed. These are the characteristics of the Darkage. 
ਜੇਕਰ ਕੋਈ ਜਣਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਬਦਨਾਮ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਹਨ ਕਲਜੁਗ ਦੀਆਂ ਖਾਸੀਅਤਾਂ। 

ਜਿਸੁ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜਿਸੁਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ [/FONT]ਤਿਸਹਿ [/FONT]ਖੁਆਰੀ [/FONT]ਚਾਕਰ [/FONT]ਕੇਹੇ [/FONT]ਡਰਣਾ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
जिसु सिकदारी तिसहि खुआरी चाकर केहे डरणा ॥ 
Jis sikḏārī ṯiseh kẖu*ārī cẖākar kėhė darṇā. 
Whosoever possesses cheiftainship, he suffers humiliation. What has the servant to fear? 
ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਪੱਲੇ ਸਰਦਾਰੀ ਹੈ, ਖੱਚਲ ਖੁਆਰੀ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਉਠਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਨੌਕਰ ਨੂੰ ਕਾਹਦਾ ਡਰ ਹੈ? 

ਜਾ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜਾਸਿਕਦਾਰੈ [/FONT]ਪਵੈ [/FONT]ਜੰਜੀਰੀ [/FONT]ਤਾ [/FONT]ਚਾਕਰ [/FONT]ਹਥਹੁ [/FONT]ਮਰਣਾ [/FONT][/FONT]॥੪॥ 
जा सिकदारै पवै जंजीरी ता चाकर हथहु मरणा ॥४॥ 
Jā sikḏārai pavai janjīrī ṯā cẖākar hathahu marṇā. ||4|| 
When the chief is chained, then he dies at the hands of the servant. 
ਜਦ ਸਰਦਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਬੇੜੀਆਂ ਪੈਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਤਦ ਨੌਕਰ ਦੇ ਹੱਥੋਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]* I hope not only you have enjoyed the Shabad but also seek help to dispel illusions.*  . It's claimed these deities and yogic terms don't mean what they say they mean, that Guruji wrote them but meant something else. It's like intellectual gyrations to deny the obvious. At the end of the day, the terms still mean what they say
* In your own quote look how terms are taking new crystal clear meaning, *
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2
  I mean even the concept of the Naad is Vedic. 
*So it be, what other word Guru would have used in place of “NAAD”? Coin a new word to confuse people or use old one to convey his own view? His choice is a display of genius mind, and he absolutely ignored from where the word came, it was prevailed in those times, Guru ji used it. Nothing more

*

What does this vaaran mean? It means that unlike Abrahamic interpretations, Bhagavan Krishna was not a false god, an evil idol or something to be discarded, feared, insulted, denied, repressed, removed, or punished. It means this was a valid Light/manifestation of the Supreme Parabrahm for past ages.
*You are most welcome to assume that, not me, Gurbani doesn’t support their being of higher spiritual beings. Varaan are also written on Raagas, are they individuals?*
      And while these forms of religion did fall down in the preceding yugs, and while not capable of giving the Supreme mukti like the Naam, these forms of spirituality in their 

[/FONT]  true sense, not the blind ritualism and worshipping of stones are to be respected as a valid spiritual path for those who follow them. If you add to these kind of interpretations the fact that Guruji sacrificed Himself to torture and death to protect Hindu's right to freely worship and keep Hindu identity, it becomes impossible to insult, tear down, disregard or invalidate the proper form of Hindu spirituality without the context that in this age all forms of spirituality have fallen away from the original Light.
*Here again you are failed to understand Gurbani and act of Ninth Nanak. Freedom of religion, that was for what Ninth Nanak gave life. *


  Quote:
  . But Gurbani doesn't say Hindu religion is worthless
*You are mixing up things, jumping on conclusion, I never stated that Hinduism is worthless, please don’t cook your own views on my behalf, I respect Hinduism as much as I respect my own religion. That also proves that you spend less time in reading my posts but more time just to conclude your own decisions. Please do not do this to **me.**, I resent that. Like in Hinduism, there is lot of imaginative literature found on Sikhism, does it make Sikhism worthless as per your approach? COME ON. YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. I DIDN’T EXPECT THIS KIND OF FALSE ACCUSATION FROM YOU IN MY DREAMS, YOU STUNNED ME*

   and we should now convert them to be Sikhs since we have “the One true God.” That’s so Abrahamic
*BHAIN JI PLEASE, REMAINS FOCUSED. DID I EVER SAID OR EXPRESSED SUCH KIND OF LOW VIEWS?. SOME THING IS WRONG HERE, YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE WRITTEN THAT..*


  Duality is not fake. Kaliyug is not fake
*Reread Ramkli Mehla 1 GGS902, forget about me.*


  . The Naad and Shabad are not fake. The three gunas are not fake. Reincarnation is not fake. Heaven and Hell are not fake. Dharamraj, chitr and Gupt, jams are not fake. The devas and asuras are not fake. The Raja Jog of the Naam is not fake. The 7 chakrs and the 10 doors are not fake. The nirgun and sargun are not fake. The avatars are not fake. Karam and dharam is not fake. Maya and mukti are not fake. Darshan of Vaheguru is not fake. Samaadhi and the Fourth state of consciousness are not fake.

What exactly do you think is fake? The whole Gurbani? Or just certain parts?
*I cannot help if you want to enjoy your own dreams about all this, I expressed my views as per Gurbani about all this , again I say they are references in Gurubani about Yoga, , chitr gupt, devtas etc, we are not supposed to stuck in an effort to prove that they were real or unreal but simply follow Guru message. All questions you have posted above prove that you are more interested in accusations implied in questions than try to understand others views contrary to yours. .*


  [/FONT]

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----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> _The Bull is called Nandi, and it is a mount of Shiva. And in each age, the Bull is losing one of it's legs until the time of Kaliyug when the Dharma Bull is standing on only one leg.
> Who cares? I am sticking to Guru Ji.
> 
> 
> ~ Vaar 23 Pauri 18 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
> Please read last Vaak by Bhai Gurdas ji, rest is reference of prevailed stories, nothing more.
> Does Gurbani tell us untruths which we can disregard or disbelieve? Clearly here Gurbani tells the truth of degradation of spirituality through the ages by clearly using the analogy of the Dharma Bull
> .Gurbani is using those stories to convey Guru’s own views on all this. Other thing, please never call Bhai Gurdas’s Vaaran Gurbani._



I am referring to Gurbani which makes reference to the Dharma Bull and to how Dharma is falling off it's legs.  I cited Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas because it explains well how the Gurbani talking about Dharma, and Gurbani talking about the Dharma Bull are covering the same ground.  Or are you not aware that Gurbani discusses Dharma in the same way as reference to Dharm Bull?


ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਇਕ ਕਲ ਕੀਨੀ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
thraethai eik kal keenee dhoor ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, one leg was removed. 

ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
paakhandd varathiaa har jaanan dhoor ||
Hypocrisy became prevalent, and people thought that the Lord was far away. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
guramukh boojhai sojhee hoee ||
The Gurmukhs still understood and realized;

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ 
anthar naam vasai sukh hoee ||2||
the Naam abided deep within them, and they were at peace. ||2||  

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
dhuaapur dhoojai dhubidhhaa hoe ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, duality and double-mindedness arose.

ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਦੋਇ ॥ 
bharam bhulaanae jaanehi dhoe ||
Deluded by doubt, they knew duality.  

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਧਰਮਿ ਦੁਇ ਪੈਰ ਰਖਾਏ ॥ 
dhuaapur dhharam dhue pair rakhaaeae ||
In this Brass Age, Dharma was left with only two feet.  

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ॥੩॥ 
guramukh hovai th naam dhrirraaeae ||3||
Those who became Gurmukh implanted the Naam deep within. ||3|| 

ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਇਕ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ 
kalajug dhharam kalaa eik rehaaeae ||
In the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, Dharma was left with only one power. 

ਇਕ ਪੈਰਿ ਚਲੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਏ ॥ 
eik pair chalai maaeiaa mohu vadhhaaeae ||
It walks on just one foot; love and emotional attachment to Maya have increased.
~SGGS Ji p. 880​


ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ 
paanddae thumaraa mehaadhaeo dhhoulae baladh charriaa aavath dhaekhiaa thhaa ||
O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull.
~SGGS Ji p. 874​




> "But Gurbani doesn't say Hindu religion is worthless"
> _You are mixing up things, jumping on conclusion, I never stated that Hinduism is worthless, please don’t cook your own views on my behalf, I respect Hinduism as much as I respect my own religion. That also proves that you spend less time in reading my posts but more time just to conclude your own decisions. Please do not do this to me., I resent that. Like in Hinduism, there is lot of imaginative literature found on Sikhism, does it make Sikhism worthless as per your approach? COME ON. YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. I DIDN’T EXPECT THIS KIND OF FALSE ACCUSATION FROM YOU IN MY DREAMS, YOU STUNNED ME_


I didn't say that you said Hinduism is worthless.  I said nowhere in Gurbani does it say Hindu religion is worthless because in nearly all your posts you talk about how every Hindu concept in Gurbani is useless to Sikhs now, to be discarded, to be rejected, to be ignored.

And I do not agree.  I think many Sikhs do not even understand concept of dasam duar, or Naam, or amrit trickling down the throat, or yugs, or how Guru's could be one Jyot, or how Guru could speak from God-consciousness without physically being God, or how Guru is different from previous avatars, etc. without having some basic understanding of the Vedic concepts as they are used in Gurbani and in supportive vaaran.  These are not meaningless concepts to be discarded or they would not be in Gurbani.

Where is the false accusation you are going on about?  You are not saying repeatedly any knowledge or clarification coming from Vedantic sources is worth ignoring as useless for a Sikh?  And so I addressed this view, "Where in Gurbani does Guru say Hindu religion is worthless, because in pauri after pauri Guru is speaking within the context and framework of Vedanta.  So it's not discarded at all.  It's corrected, clarified and improved upon.  That is my opinion.  Didn't you write on another post that simply sharing these things would cause Sikhs to run to a Hindu mandir and become Hindus?  You don't have to agree with it or follow every post I write with endless personal disagreements.  Write what you believe and understand.  Why does it offend you so much that I have a different opinion?  I'm nowhere attacking you personally except to try and answer objections.  Why should I be defensive?  Agree or don't agree.



> _What can I do? Accept your imaginative meanings? Here is another recommendation, please read aad0002 ji’s on “three qualities of Maya” she has explained beautifully without slipping into imaginative worlds._


Why put down the high compliment you paid to Aad0002 by including put down of me personally?  Why not simply say, "I prefer this view?"




> _Where did I disagree with you on this? Our issue is Hindu Avtara and God’s incarnation. I proved again and again that He doesn’ take birth, yesterday just to support your own views you distorted the meaning of Fifth Nanak’s statement that God doesn’t take birth. What can I do?_


You did not prove.  I am not persuaded.  Not only in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but also in Dasam Granth Bani Ji and vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji is there reference to avtaaras.  I don't believe you understand the concept.  You think I'm distorting Gurbani.  We cannot continue further, since neither will persuade the other.  




> ਤਿਮੁਤਿਮੁਕਰਅਵਤਾਰਕਹਾਏ॥
> Tim(u) tim(u) kar avtaar kahaae||​
> _Bhain ji, just think” avtar kuhaye” means they claimed to be Avtar, it is my observation after reading all your quotes Gurbani, you have no inkling of the meaning of the quote you refer to, you just go by reading words like avtar, yogi,yuga, Vishnu, then start jumping on conclusion, and "copy and tape it.” practice goes on by Saying” see here is avtar, here is yoga word etc”, obviously never try to understand the context. Words change meaning in different context, just take example of words like “ shabad, Guru,Gurmukh” they change meaning in different contexts, is it hard to understand that simple thing?_




ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥ 
aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||
You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.  

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||
You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 968​
He Gurbani does not say descent from Divine manifestation is a punishment incarnation but to enlighten a world in darkness, and neither does it say Guru "claimed" to be avtaar.



ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ 
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. 

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.  

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ 
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ 
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.  

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ 
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​

Interpret Gurbani to the best of your ability.  That is all I'm trying to do.  It's a diswcussion forum.  If you don't accept it, that's fine.  I can't persuade anyone, only show very beautiful and interesting things.  I invite you to consider the sexual adventures you constantly refer to as being another element of Maya, generation and perhaps degeneration of the creative principle in corrupted ages.  I don't believe devtas are quite on the same level as a human being, although the ensuing degeneration is in fact what is keeping human beings in bondage to Maya through karam.  Let's evaluate things with reason and not crudely as if such designations are intended as a put down or presumed inferiority of Hindu religion.  Guruji was correcting that all the devtas fell into the bondage of Time and Maya, and these Vedic stories are His example.  I explained several times that the Mahadevas are the creative principle, primarily Vishnu which is why He has the 10 incarnations of avataaras spoken of in Gurbani.  Even the physical forms of Guru were in Time, as they all died.  And this is why it is clear Sikh is not to worship or idolize either the sargun saroop of Hindu devtas or humanity of the 10 human forms and 11th physical form of the God-conscious Jyot (avtaar) of Guruji.  But we pay homage to the Shabad-Jyot Himself which encompasses both nirgun and sargun reality.




> _Those avtars who involved in promiscuous sex activities and lost in Maya, do not rise to the level of high spirituality. One cannot enjoy lust and then claim he/she is high spiritual being._


Gurbani says this, not me.  But you are so busy being offended and rejecting that you can't see it.



ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​


ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. 

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute. 

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ 
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||  

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them. 

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ 
aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ 
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606​


ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥ 
charan badhhik jan thaeoo mukath bheae ||
The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.
~SGGS Ji p. 345​


ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ । 
jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.   

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ । 
charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.  

ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ । 
badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.   

ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ । 
darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ । 
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him. 

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ । 
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.  

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ । 
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥ 
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~ Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​




> _Our issue is Hindu Avtara and God’s incarnation. I proved again and again that He doesn’ take birth,_



Of course He takes birth.  He created Himself in the creation.  In His Parabrahm aspect He is uncreated and cannot be born.  But no one in sansaara could perceive Him.  So He became manifest descending Light into the darkness of sansaaric world.  And this is the meaning of avataar.  Not that avataar is the Parabrahm, only the sargun form which is perceivable.



ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ 
sunnahu oupajae dhas avathaaraa ||
From the Primal Void, the ten incarnations welled up. 

ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
srisatt oupaae keeaa paasaaraa ||
Creating the Universe, He made the expanse.

ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਾਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੨॥ 
dhaev dhaanav gan gandhharab saajae sabh likhiaa karam kamaaeidhaa ||12||
He fashioned the demi-gods and demons, the heavenly heralds and celestial musicians; everyone acts according to their past karma. ||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 1038
​


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.  

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. 

ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.  

ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.

ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits. 

ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ 
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth. 

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​
I simply do not see where Gurbani says the Hindu devas do not exist or are fairy-tales.  But everywhere they are shown as an integral part of manifest creation and even as legitimate spirituality and path to the Uncreated Parabrahm for past ages.




> _"Talk of 10 carnation", that is, I thanks Bhain ji, nothing more than that, talk doesn’t make it a reality, numerous times I wrote that Gurbani doesn’t verify about their being reality...
> 
> Who cares? I am sticking to Guru Ji...
> 
> You are most welcome to assume that, not me, Gurbani doesn’t support their being of higher spiritual beings. Varaan are also written on Raagas, are they individuals?
> 
> Here again you are failed to understand Gurbani and act of Ninth Nanak. Freedom of religion, that was for what Ninth Nanak gave life..._
> 
> and we should now convert them to be Sikhs since we have “the One true God.” That’s so Abrahamic
> BHAIN JI PLEASE, REMAINS FOCUSED. DID I EVER SAID OR EXPRESSED SUCH KIND OF LOW VIEWS?. SOME THING IS WRONG HERE, YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE WRITTEN THAT..


It seems you cannot accept where Gurbani is saying Nirgun Parabrahm has created the creation and is manifest in His creation and that creation and Hindu devtas are none other than He.  So I presume this to be an Abrahamic concept that One God is forever separate from His creation.  Since Sikh's have the One Ek Oangkar and not the Hindu's, maybe they should convert?  It's a logical step following the presumption that Hindu devas are only corrupted or mythological, and a true distortion of Gurbani teaching about manifestation of Parabrahm Jyot in Time-Space and thus falling into the three gunas and duality.  Gurbani says Guruji brought us the Shabad-Jyot and this Naam which is vibrating in the nirgun as well as the sargun and remains the only boat which is uncorrupted.  Nowhere does Gurbani say Hindu devas are invalid, unreal, and provided no Light of God for past ages.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ 
breham giaanee aap nirankaar ||
The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ ॥ 
breham giaanee kee sobhaa breham giaanee banee ||
The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥ 
naanak breham giaanee sarab kaa dhhanee ||8||8||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||
~SGGS Ji p. 274
​

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ 
baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||
The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ 
bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||
He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ 
karam karath hovai nihakaram ||
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥ 
this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;
~SGGS Ji p. 274​
That is my true understanding.  There are pure and impure forms of religion...even in Sikhism.  This is Kalyug.  True religion is hard to aquire.  But the beauty of the past does not become unbeautiful simply because this is a corrupted age.  And the beauty of Gurbani contains all the beauty of the past or these definitions, stories, teachings and explanations would not be in Gurbani.



> _What intelligent aspect you have been debating? Hindu avtars were of high spirituality? Is that the intelligent one? Based on misunderstanding of Gurbani, you are falsely saying Gurbani accepts their reality? What kind of intelligence is this?_


This is what I mean by discarding and disrespecting the validity of Hindu religion in some mistaken attempt to convince people of the independance of Sikh teaching.  And hence I wrote: "Where does Gurbani say Hindu religion is worthless."  Because to consider no Light of God at all in Hindu devas is a really low opinion of Hindu religion.

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


----------



## pk70

Quote”And I do not agree. I think many Sikhs do not even understand concept of dasam duar, or Naam, or amrit trickling down the throat, or yugs, or how Guru's could be one Jyot, or how Guru could speak from God-consciousness without physically being God, or how Guru is different from previous avatars, etc. without having some basic understanding of the Vedic concepts as they are used in Gurbani and in supportive vaaran. These are not meaningless concepts to be discarded or they would not be in Gurbani.
*Important is to inch toward Dasam duar not just to word its concept, it is an effort, it is a sincere faith, its unconditional love that lead to that, not any kind of vast knowledge of Vedas and Abrahamic theories which can be helpful. Those who walk towards HIM in intoxication of HIS love, their world is changed. Many are following without Veda Knowledge, the one who have or boast about knowledge, I have seen stumbling them every day, that is my observation, just contrary to yours.*


  Quote”Didn't you write on another post that simply sharing these things would cause Sikhs to run to a Hindu mandir and become Hindus?

*Please reread it, it is a different message, it is about those innocents who just are in love with Guru and want to follow him instead of digging wisdom of those scriptures in which human sacrifices and other obscenity are advocated( Atharva VedaDr.Ambedkar).*
  Quote:
_What can I do? Accept your   imaginative meanings? Here is another recommendation, please read aad0002   ji’s on “three qualities of Maya” she has explained beautifully without   slipping into imaginative worlds._ 
        Why put down the high compliment you paid to Aad0002 by including put down of me personally? Why not simply say, "I prefer this view?"
*Here is a reason, you have failed to understand any thing I said in the past, in this context, you do not see the reason I referred aad0002's commentary. We are discussing terminology and their references used in Gurbani, in this context,I felt “Treguna” also falls in this category.. Very carefully aad0002 keeps explaining it with examples and precise comments, not once she involves in a kind of digging into Hinduism as we both do. My compliments are more addressed to her approach than to her. What you have noted here? ONLY SHE! I have regard for you, why should you even think I could put you down? 

*
  Quot
  You did not prove. I am not persuaded. Not only in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but also in Dasam Granth Bani Ji and vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji is there reference to avtaaras. I don't believe you understand the concept. You think I'm distorting Gurbani. We cannot continue further, since neither will persuade the other.
*As you wish, I am not here to pursue any one, just share and appose if any one try to quote Gurbani but fails to convey Guru message.*


  Why does it offend you so much that I have a different opinion? I'm nowhere attacking you personally except to try and answer objections. Why should I be defensive? Agree or don't agree.
*I am not offended by your opinion at all, there are some issues, I agree with you too but it were your questions with implied meaning that just disturbed me. If I disagree with you about your advocacy that GOD takes birth, why  should the religion is brought into context to question it?  If Gurbani is misunderstood, why is it necessary to ask if it is fake? Did I ever ask you such questions? If I did, I must feel sorry for it because that is not what you think as per my understanding.*
  You did not prove. I am not persuaded. Not only in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but also in Dasam Granth Bani Ji and vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji is there reference to avtaaras. I don't believe you understand the concept. You think I'm distorting Gurbani. We cannot continue further, since neither will persuade the other.

*As You wish, I shall respect that.*
  Gurbani says this, not me. But you are so busy being offended and rejecting that you can't see it.
*Why would I be busy being offended,? You have put a smile on my face, thanks. You can have this opinion about me, it doesn’t change the truth. I just resent bringing any whole community or religion just to trash it. I may disagree with all other faiths but I do respect them since this is also HIS Ordinance. If your intention was otherwise as you state, I thank you and sorry if there was any misunderstanding.*
ਏਕਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰਸਰਬਦੇਵਾਦੇਵਦੇਵਾਤਆਤਮਾ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਜੇਕੋਜਾਣੈਭੇਉ॥ਨਾਨਕੁਤਾਕਾਦਾਸੁਹੈਸੋਈਨਿਰੰਜਨਦੇਉ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469
*In the above quote  by you as per Dr Sahib Singh ji, Bhai Veer Singh ji,” Krishan” word is an attribute to WAHEGURU, here it means The Creator is soul  of Devtas and their Devtas. Nanak says only those get liberated who understand this mystery of all pervading GOD. Again it is about HIS sargun sroop, many just cannot comprehend it. Here Gurbani doesn’t say what you are advocating. On the same page, Guru ji keeps commenting on these but at the end of the Shabad he gives his own views, the best one in pursuit of HIM( GGS JI 469-470)*
*\*
  Quote“Of course He takes birth.”
*This is open opposition of SIKHISM’s basic principle- HE is Ajooni, Swambh” (beyond Birth and is from Himself Self illumined)*
  Quote “He created Himself in the creation. In His Parabrahm aspect He is uncreated and cannot be born. But no one in sansaara could perceive Him. So He became manifest descending Light into the darkness of sansaaric world. And this is the meaning of avataar. Not that avataar is the Parabrahm, only the sargun form which is perceivable.

*Many times I told you that you could use words like” transcend, manifest” but not “takes Birth”, for His Sargun Sroop  and you cannot say HE takes birth individually and leaves rest of the world unattended.  Mystery of His Nirgun and Sargun sroop is very vital to understand.  Peoples are not only saved by Him through Avtaras and Prophets but through many saints and other humanitarians too. He has ways to do things, His game goes on. If one says HE takes birth, obviously he/she is standing against” Guru ji’s own declaration about HIM” AJOONI, SWAMBH”  These people known as Avtaras were and worshiped and the real Creator was and is put at the backside. Here Guru ji says that these were merely HIS creation, worship the Creator not creation. If we believe HE takes birth, and HE took birth as **Krishna**, Rama, Vishnu etc, there is no reason left not to worship them as HIM but Gurbani says otherwise. Confusion is just because of this Sargun Sroop in which HE manifests but individually doesn’t take birth. When you support HE took birth in their forms, you are aligning with Hindu thought. Then you say Guru is above, HE is above, who will listen to this mix up music?? None, they would go to Mandir to start the trade as usual.(GGSJI 1283)                          *
*If you say He manifests in all, but individually HE doesn’t take birth, I agree.*
  t seems you cannot accept where Gurbani is saying Nirgun Parabrahm has created the creation and is manifest in His creation and that creation and Hindu devtas are none other than He. So I presume this to be an Abrahamic concept that One God is forever separate from His creation.
* Presumption can be wrong. Abrahamic thought has failed to decipher the meaning of the Totality of the Infinite, so they see HIM separate, that is why there are seven days etc stories. Here He and His creation, is actually one, some thing comes out of it and goes into it back. Hard to understand but who experienced it, tried to explain it as much as they could.* Here *in **America**, a Native American has become my friend, whenever I discussed spiritual topics, he liked it. He said to me” we believe in the same kind of Super Power, Super Spirit” I agreed, in a way. Then as talk proceeded I just said to him” I think your ancestors are more right about Super Spirit than Christians” He said,” no one said that”. I said” Well, I feel so, this is the way I look at it, the idea is more explicit in your ancestor’s point of view than theirs”. He said “ there are other things you may not like it” I said” May be it is culture, it is always different place to place, There are many things, what our ancestors adored,  but we may dislike them.” He agreed. He expressed his displeasure about what they went through. I told him to take it as Super Spirit’s Ordinance, when you love Super spirit, regardless what it gives, must be accepted happily. He was just quiet, may be he disagreed or may be he did misunderstand me. Whenever I meet Him,  he respects me a lot and says he can relate himself to me. So it is matter of understanding the truth regardless the way it is said.*
   Since Sikh's have the One Ek Oangkar and not the Hindu's, maybe they should convert?
*I don’t think on others behalf.*
   It's a logical step following the presumption that Hindu devas are only corrupted 
*Do you think they are pure and above Maya?*
  or mythological, and a true distortion of Gurbani teaching about manifestation of Parabrahm Jyot in Time-Space and thus falling into the three gunas and duality. Gurbani says Guruji brought us the Shabad-Jyot and this Naam which is vibrating in the nirgun as well as the sargun and remains the only boat which is uncorrupted. Nowhere does Gurbani say Hindu devas are invalid, unreal, and provided no Light of God for past ages.
*No where Gurbani says dig them out either.*
*Now here below I am giving you the same Guru Vaak in which, Guru ji questions about KalYug, very logically he says,” nothing is changed, same Sun rises, same Moon, no body has seen Kalyug sitting some where”. Why he is saying that? Why he is just not saying, “yes Kalyug was there, or it is here”. His concern is not Kalyug  but the time when HE is ignored, it is Kalyug, when HE is loved and praised it is goof  time or age.  Please reread it in that CONTEXT; very beautifully Guru ji expressed his views on a prevailed termology. I would love to quote italian Critic who surprisingly says the same thing on art as i have been trying to say in context of understanding Gurbani( Poetry form= art), here is his views  ”work of art is an  image, created in the mind of the artist and communicated to the minds of audience, only the image is a work of art; the physical object- painting, piece of scrulpture, or other form- is merely a practical act to aid reproduction of the image. Benedetto Croce.  So it is not the words that deserve importance but the message Guru ji conveys.*

ਕਿਤੈਦੇਸਿਨਆਇਆਸੁਣੀਐਤੀਰਥਪਾਸਿਨਬੈਠਾ॥ 
कितैदेसिनआइआसुणीऐतीरथपासिनबैठा॥ 
Kiṯai ḏės na ā*i*ā suṇī*ai ṯirath pās na baiṯẖā. 
The Darkage is not heard visiting any country or sitting at any shrine. 
ਕਲਯੁਗਕਿਸੇਮੁਲਕਵਿੱਚਆਇਆਜਾਂਕਿਸੇ ਧਰਮਅਸਥਾਨਤੇਬੈਠਾਹੋਇਆਸੁਣਿਆਂਨਹੀਂਜਾਣਾ। 

ਦਾਤਾਦਾਨੁਕਰੇਤਹਨਾਹੀਮਹਲਉਸਾਰਿਨਬੈਠਾ॥੨॥ 
दातादानुकरेतहनाहीमहलउसारिनबैठा॥२॥ 
Ḏāṯā ḏān karė ṯah nāhī mahal usār na baiṯẖā. ||2|| 
It is not there, where the man of bounty practises charity, nor it is seated in the mansion, built by it. 
ਇਹਉਥੇਨਹੀਂਜਿਥੇਦਾਨੀਪੁਰਸ਼ਪੁੱਨਦਾਨਕਰਦਾਹੈ, ਨਾਂਹੀਇਹਮੰਦਰਬਣਾਕੇਉਸਅੰਦਰਬੈਠਾਹੈ।
*As You feel I follow your posts, I humbly ask you” are you saying I should ignore your posts?”*
*If answer is yes, I shall never ever dare to read or comment on your posts, I shall honor your wish gladly after all you are my intelligent Gur**sikh fellow* *Sister, all I have is regard for you. I thank you for sharing your views with me though.***

*
*


----------



## Sikh80

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
रामकली महला ५ ॥ 
Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl: 

ਜੋ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਕਰੈ  ਸੋਈ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਜਾਨਾ  ॥ 
जो किछु करै सोई सुखु जाना ॥ 
Whatever He does makes me happy. 

ਮਨੁ  ਅਸਮਝੁ  ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ  ਪਤੀਆਨਾ  ॥ 
मनु असमझु साधसंगि पतीआना ॥ 
The ignorant mind is encouraged, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. 

ਡੋਲਨ  ਤੇ  ਚੂਕਾ  ਠਹਰਾਇਆ  ॥ 
डोलन ते चूका ठहराइआ ॥ 
Now, it does not waver at all; it has become stable and steady. 

ਸਤਿ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਲੇ  ਸਤਿ  ਸਮਾਇਆ  ॥੧॥ 
सति माहि ले सति समाइआ ॥१॥ 
Receiving Truth, it is merged in the True Lord. ||1|| 

ਦੂਖੁ  ਗਇਆ  ਸਭੁ  ਰੋਗੁ  ਗਇਆ  ॥ 
दूखु गइआ सभु रोगु गइआ ॥ 
Pain is gone, and all illness is gone. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੀ  ਆਗਿਆ  ਮਨ  ਮਹਿ  ਮਾਨੀ  ਮਹਾ  ਪੁਰਖ  ਕਾ  ਸੰਗੁ  ਭਇਆ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 प्रभ की आगिआ मन महि मानी महा पुरख का संगु भइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
 I have accepted the Will of God in my mind, associating with the Great Person, the Guru. ||1||Pause|| 


 While doing some research on 'Saint' I have come across the above lines and shall be grateful if some light is thrown on the line that is colored in Blue. The literal translation or the literal meaning may not be acceptable as per sikh philosophy. I submit this for the kind guidance of the learned members.

It also to be noted that the Gurmukhi line does not refer to Guru.It simply refers to Maha-Purukh. The translator has taken the liberty of presuming that maha Purukh is Guru. To this extent there is some variation in Gurmukhi and English Lines. The line in Gurmukhi has no mention of maha purukh as guru.


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## Sikh80

I stand completely answered as far as the meaning of Maha Purukh is concerned. It has been explained by pk 70 ji in the thread of 'Role Of a saint'. One need not post further on this account.

Regards to all.


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## Sikh80

pauVI ] (947-10)
  Pauree:


 scY qKqu rcwieAw bYsx kau jWeI ] (947-10, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
  The True Lord created His throne, upon which He sits.


sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY gur sbid suxweI ] (947-11, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
  He Himself is everything; this is what the Word of the Guru's Shabad says.


 Awpy kudriq swjIAnu kir mhl srweI ] (947-11, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
  Through His almighty creative power, He created and fashioned the mansions and hotels.


 cMdu sUrju duie cwnxy pUrI bxq bxweI ] (947-12, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
  He made the two lamps, the sun and the moon; He formed the perfect form.

Awpy vyKY suxy Awip gur sbid iDAweI ]1] (947-12, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
  He Himself sees, and He Himself hears; meditate on the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||


 vwhu vwhu scy pwiqswh qU scI nweI ]1] rhwau ] (947-13, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
  Waaho! Waaho! Hail, hail, O True King! True is Your Name. ||1||Pause||


* What is the meaning of the colored line. ?
Why should the Lord meditate upon Guru Shabad and what is Guru shabad in the present context.? Is Guru here the Lord HIMSELF? 


May kindly opine.

Wjkk Wjkf
* 
[/FONT]


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## Sikh80

GurFateh

The meaning as assigned by Dr. Sahib Singh ji is given below.If the following translation/commentary is taken to be ideal/perfect in that case the above Translation in English is only a meaningless mess.
1.
ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਇਹ (ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ) ਤਖ਼ਤ ਆਪਣੇ ਬੈਠਣ ਲਈ ਥਾਂ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ। (ਇਸ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਹਰੇਕ ਚੀਜ਼ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਹੈ-ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੇ ਦੱਸੀ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, (ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਬਿਰਖ ਆਦਿਕ, ਮਾਨੋ, ਰਹਿਣ ਲਈ ਉਸ ਨੇ) ਮਹਲ ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਬਣਾਏ ਹਨ; ਇਹਨਾਂ ਮਹਲ ਮਾੜੀਆਂ (ਵਿਚ) ਚੰਦ ਤੇ ਸੂਰਜ ਦੋਵੇਂ (ਮਾਨੋ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਜਗਾਏ ਹੋਏ) ਦੀਵੇ ਹਨ। (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੇ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੀ) ਬਣਤਰ ਮੁਕੰਮਲ ਬਣਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। (ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠ ਕੇ) ਆਪ ਹੀ ਵੇਖ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਸੁਣ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ; ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।
2.
It is further to be noted that the words like Satguru and Lord are two different entities.[It is in reference to the thread Who is Guru in Sikhism].I shall post this in the same as well.In the following lines at ang948 the same meaning is conveyed that through Satguru one is able to establish HIM in the mind.


  ਮਃ  ੩  ॥ ਧੰਧਾ  ਧਾਵਤ  ਦਿਨੁ  ਗਇਆ  ਰੈਣਿ  ਗਵਾਈ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ ਕੂੜੁ  ਬੋਲਿ  ਬਿਖੁ  ਖਾਇਆ  ਮਨਮੁਖਿ  ਚਲਿਆ  ਰੋਇ  ॥ ਸਿਰੈ  ਉਪਰਿ  ਜਮ  ਡੰਡੁ  ਹੈ  ਦੂਜੈ  ਭਾਇ  ਪਤਿ  ਖੋਇ  ॥ ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕਦੇ  ਨ  ਚੇਤਿਓ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਆਵਣ  ਜਾਣਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਜਮ ਡੰਡੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਹਜੇ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਰਹੈ  ਕਰਮਿ  ਪਰਾਪਤਿ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੨॥ 


ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਤੁਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦਾ (ਸਾਰਾ) ਦਿਨ (ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੇ) ਧੰਧਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕਦਿਆਂ ਬੀਤ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਰਾਤ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਸੌਂ ਕੇ ਗੰਵਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਧੰਧਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ) ਝੂਠ ਬੋਲ ਕੇ ਜ਼ਹਿਰ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੇ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਮਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ) ਤੇ (ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ ਏਥੋਂ) ਰੋ ਕੇ ਤੁਰ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡੰਡਾ (ਤਿਆਰ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ) ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਹਰ ਵੇਲੇ ਮੌਤ ਤੋਂ ਡਰਦਾ ਹੈ), (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਸਾਰ ਕੇ) ਹੋਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆਰ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਣ (ਆਪਣੀ) ਇੱਜ਼ਤ ਗੰਵਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਤਾਂ ਕਦੇ ਯਾਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ (ਇਸ ਲਈ) ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ (ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਨਸੀਬ) ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਪਰ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਨਾਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡੰਡਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦਾ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮੌਤ ਡਰਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਉਹ ਅਡੋਲ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਇਹ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੨। 


3.
* The following lines are also suggestive of the above concept,howsoever, confusing it may look. Dr. Sahib singh ji has also preferred to not to enter into any controversy and has not assigned any sort of explanation and has only used the terms as has been mentioned in Bani. 

May be I am yet to understand things. *


ਮਃ  ੩  ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖ  ਬੋਲਿ  ਨ  ਜਾਣਨੀ  ਓਨਾ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਕਾਮੁ  ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ  ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ  ॥ ਓਇ  ਥਾਉ  ਕੁਥਾਉ  ਨ  ਜਾਣਨੀ  ਉਨ  ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਲੋਭੁ  ਵਿਕਾਰੁ  ॥ ਓਇ  ਆਪਣੈ  ਸੁਆਇ  ਆਇ  ਬਹਿ  ਗਲਾ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਓਨਾ  ਮਾਰੇ  ਜਮੁ  ਜੰਦਾਰੁ  ॥ ਅਗੈ  ਦਰਗਹ  ਲੇਖੈ  ਮੰਗਿਐ  ਮਾਰਿ  ਖੁਆਰੁ  ਕੀਚਹਿ  ਕੂੜਿਆਰ  ॥ ਏਹ  ਕੂੜੈ  ਕੀ  ਮਲੁ  ਕਿਉ  ਉਤਰੈ  ਕੋਈ  ਕਢਹੁ  ਇਹੁ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜਾਏ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ  ਕਟਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥ ਨਾਮੁ  ਜਪੇ  ਨਾਮੋ  ਆਰਾਧੇ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਜਨ  ਕਉ  ਕਰਹੁ  ਸਭਿ  ਨਮਸਕਾਰੁ  ॥ ਮਲੁ  ਕੂੜੀ  ਨਾਮਿ  ਉਤਾਰੀਅਨੁ  ਜਪਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਹੋਆ  ਸਚਿਆਰੁ  ॥ ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਜਿਸ  ਦੇ  ਏਹਿ  ਚਲਤ  ਹਹਿ  ਸੋ  ਜੀਵਉ  ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥੨॥ 


ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਤੁਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਚੂੰਕਿ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਬਲ ਹਨ ਉਹ ਨਾਹ ਹੀ ਥਾਂ ਕੁਥਾਂ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਨਾਹ ਹੀ ਸਮੇ-ਸਿਰ ਢੁਕਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਰਨੀ ਜਾਣਦੇ ਹਨ; (ਜਿਥੇ ਭੀ) ਉਹ ਆ ਕੇ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ (ਸਤਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਣ ਤਾਂ ਭੀ) ਆਪਣੇ ਸੁਆਰਥ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਹੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਸੋ ਹਰ ਵੇਲੇ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਡਰਾਉਣਾ ਜਮ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਹਰ ਵੇਲੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਬਾਈ ਰੱਖਦੀ ਹੈ); ਅਗਾਂਹ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗਿਆ ਜਾਣ ਤੇ ਉਹ ਕੂੜ ਦੇ ਵਪਾਰੀ ਮਾਰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਕੀਤੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਦੱਸੇ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਮੈਲ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਜੋ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਭਣੇ) ਕਿਵੇਂ ਦੂਰ ਹੋਵੇ। ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲ ਪਏ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ (ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ) ਪੱਕਾ ਬਿਠਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਗੁਰੂ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਨਿਸ਼ਚੇ ਕਰਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ) 'ਨਾਮ' ਸਾਰੇ ਪਾਪਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟਣ ਦੇ ਸਮਰੱਥ ਹੈ। (ਸੋ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਹੋ ਕੇ) ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸਿਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਰੇ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਵਾਓ, ਕੂੜੇ ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ (ਦੇ ਮੋਹ) ਦੀ ਮੈਲ ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਉਤਾਰ ਲਈ ਹੈ, ਨਾਮ ਜਪ ਕੇ ਉਹ ਸੱਚ ਦਾ ਵਪਾਰੀ ਬਣ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਦਾਸ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਅਰਦਾਸ ਕਰ ਕਿ) ਜਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਬਰਕਤਾਂ ਹਨ ਉਹ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੀਊਂਦਾ ਰਹੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਸਦਾ ਅਸਾਡੇ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ ਹੱਥ ਰੱਖੀ ਰੱਖੇ)।੨। 


Wjkk WjkF


*Note:*
Respected Pk70 ji,

Thanks for your contribution to the thread of 'Who is Guru in Sikhism'. After discussing the same in detail in that thread I feel that I stand fairly answered. One may proceed if one likes.

Regards


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## Sikh80

*Pk70 ji,

As stated above, I stand completely answered and you may not post again.

Regards*


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## Taranjeet singh

gopwl qyrw Awrqw ]
gopaal thaeraa aarathaa ||
_O Lord of the world, this is Your lamp-lit worship service._

[/FONT]jo jn qumrI Bgiq krMqy iqn ky kwj svwrqw ]1] rhwau ]
jo jan thumaree bhagath kara(n)thae thin kae kaaj savaarathaa ||1|| rehaao ||
_You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause||

_I have not posted the full sabad as ,sometimes, the lines of 'rahao' conveys that is to be conveyed in the sabad.

The above is taken from Arti/Aarta. To most of you the meaning of the Lines must be perfectly understood. However, due to very limited knowledge It is not fully understood by me. Your efforts to share will be appreciated.

The meanings, assigned, are as per that is understood by me should not be correct and is as follows.

To me it appears that the implication of these lines would be 


that those who perform devotional worship of Gopal are rewarded and their wishes are fulfilled.[thin kae kaaj savaarathaa].The Great Master is not supposed to be so inconsiderate to those who are not in HIS worship. He is the creator and has to look after all those who have been created irrespective if they worship or not worship. 
What is the meaning of 'thin kae kaaj savaarathaa'.?
Will it imply , by default, that those who are not engaged in HIS worship shall be at disadvantageous position so far as the worldly affairs are concerned.?


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## spnadmin

twinkle said:


> gopwl qyrw Awrqw ]
> gopaal thaeraa aarathaa ||
> _O Lord of the world, this is Your lamp-lit worship service._
> 
> [/FONT]jo jn qumrI Bgiq krMqy iqn ky kwj svwrqw ]1] rhwau ]
> jo jan thumaree bhagath kara(n)thae thin kae kaaj savaarathaa ||1|| rehaao ||
> _You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause||
> 
> _I have not posted the full sabad as ,sometimes, the lines of 'rahao' conveys that is to be conveyed in the sabad.
> 
> The above is taken from Arti/Aarta. To most of you the meaning of the Lines must be perfectly understood. However, due to very limited knowledge It is not fully understood by me. Your efforts to share will be appreciated.
> 
> The meanings, assigned, are as per that is understood by me should not be correct and is as follows.
> 
> To me it appears that the implication of these lines would be
> 
> 
> that those who perform devotional worship of Gopal are rewarded and their wishes are fulfilled.[thin kae kaaj savaarathaa].The Great Master is not supposed to be so inconsiderate to those who are not in HIS worship. He is the creator and has to look after all those who have been created irrespective if they worship or not worship.
> What is the meaning of 'thin kae kaaj savaarathaa'.?
> Will it imply , by default, that those who are not engaged in HIS worship shall be at disadvantageous position so far as the worldly affairs are concerned.?



HI twinkle ji - 


In my humble opinion - None of the above. The rehao line is not a statement or declaration. The rehao line is an admission of humility and dependence on Waheguru. Calling out, Bhagat Danna calls out, the devoted one (bhagatth), the one who opens up to the jyote of Waheguru, who is your slave, accepts that you Arrange all that happens, arrange for that reward. The reward is the jyote.

That is why throughout the Shabad Guru one is told that the jyote is by the glance of His Grace. 

The lamp-lit service is not the arti of a Hindu mandir but the opening up to His jyote.


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## Taranjeet singh

Hi N Kaur ji,

The explanation that you have provided would be perfectly o.k. and that I remain very grateful. However, the explanation provided does not provide the meaning of the lines stated above. There are two lines in the above and the meaning as given by the translator conveys the translated meaning that may or may not, as stated by your good self, be correct.
In humble opinion, It would be a generic and a sweeping translation that would embrace the entire concept of sikhism and one need not necessarily subscribe to the views expressed. There are many implied rebuttable presumptions in such a translation or explanation. 

We have an Arti that goes as follows:

Om Jai Jagdish Hare swami Jai Jagdish Hare,
Bhagat Jano ke sankat swami kshan mein door karey.....

The second line will be strikingly similar to that is stated in the above lines of the Arti/Aarta. The second lines of Artis that is recited in most of the Hindu world would mean as- Jagdish removes the difficult times of his devotees in a jiff. 

This is the accepted meaning of the Hindu's arti. 
Shall be again grateful if you revisit the above in the light of the fact that the querist is not aware of integrating in the meaning that apparently is not present.  

Hope you will appreciate the difficulty of those who are willing understand the meaning as is apparent without mixing the concept that may or may not be present.


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## spnadmin

The one line really cannot be understood outside of the shabad -- Put it in the context of Bhagat Dhanna - Who was simple in his prayer and was rewarded for his devotion. 

ਧੰਨਾ ॥ 
dhhannaa ||
Dhannaa:

 ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥ 
gopaal thaeraa aarathaa ||
O Lord of the world, this is Your lamp-lit worship service.

ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jo jan thumaree bhagath karanthae thin kae kaaj savaarathaa ||1|| rehaao ||
You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause||

 ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ 
dhaal seedhhaa maago gheeo ||
Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You.

 ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
hamaraa khusee karai nith jeeo ||
My mind shall ever be pleased.

 ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥ 
panheeaa shhaadhan neekaa || anaaj mago sath see kaa ||1||
Shoes, fine clothes, and grain of seven kinds - I beg of You. ||1||

 ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ 
goo bhais mago laavaeree ||
A milk cow, and a water buffalo, I beg of You,

 ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥ 

eik thaajan thuree changaeree ||
and a fine Turkestani horse.

 ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ 
ghar kee geehan changee ||
A good wife to care for my home

 ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥ 
jan dhhannaa laevai mangee ||2||4||
- Your humble servant Dhanna begs for these things, Lord. ||2||4||

Dhanna is the epitome of simple faith in the support of Waheguru. The shabad cannot be more humble in the simplicity of its language. Translators can make things more contorted than they really are. 

Notice that he begs for simple things -- lentils and ghee -- but then says "my mind will be pleased by this." He does not say my stomach will be pleased by this. It is all about finding His support through a simple faith based in humility toward Him.


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## spnadmin

Let me add - What is being "Arranged?" What is He the "Arranger of?"  The answer: He arranges the reward, the jyote. And Bhagat Dhanna is saying that he has complete faith that this reward, which is a spiritual reward and not material rewards, will be "arranged" for the humble servant.


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## spnadmin

Make an effort not to read the sakhi literally. It explains my point and the message of the shabad. 

*Bhagat Dhanna Ji* was a Sikh Bhagat who was born in about 1415, in Dhuan village in Tantr state, Rajasthan, of present day North West India. He was a simple Indian farmer who worked hard on his farm all day tending his crops. He used to go past the house of a Clever Pundit everyday on the way to his work on the farm. Dhanna Ji used to listen to the Pundit singing religions verses and carry out various ritualistic acts, which were beyond the understanding of this simple Jatt. He found these acts intriguing but never asked the religious man about any of the things that he had observed in the many years that he had gone past the Pundit’s house. 



One day, Bhai Dhanna ji was passing the pundit's house and noticed that the religious man was feeding his Thakur - a stone idol. Bhai Dhanna ji was quite puzzled by what he was observing. On this occasion as he had some free time, so he went and asked the Pundit. Dhanna Ji asked _"Pundit Ji, What are you doing?" 
_

The Pundit was very hungry and wanted to get this feeding over as soon as possible and really wasn't in a mood for Bhai Dhanna ji's simple inquiries. He replied, _"Oh, nothing, I am just feeding my Thakur.  Now if you will excuse me..." _ 

Bhai Dhanna ji found that incredibly funny, _"What is the use of feeding a stone?"_

Pundit, _"This is not a stone, it is God. It’s Thakur!" _ 
Dhanna, _"Really? What happens if you feed the Stone...  I mean, what happens when you feed the Thakur?” _ 
Pundit: _"The Thakur gives you everything!! If you can please God, you will get everything. Now, I really must ask you to leave...I have a lot to do"_

Bhai Dhanna ji liked this idea of giving a little food to this small God and getting back everything. So Bhai Dhanna ji asked the pundit if he could also have a Thakur. 



At this time, the pundit's stomach was audibly complaining about lack of food. So he hastily picked up the nearest stone off the ground and said, _"Here. First feed Thakur, then you eat. Understood! Goodbye." _ Saying that the pundit dived into the food left over by Thakur. _“Lovely I really could not have waited any longer!” _ 



Bhai Dhanna ji held the stone closely to his chest and hurried home. As soon as Bhai Dhanna ji got home, he first carefully and loving washed the stone. Having bathed the Thakur, Dhanna then cooked the best meal he knew - Saag and Makkee di Roti - for dinner. He placed it in front of Thakur and said, _"Here Thakur ji, please eat this food, I have made it lovingly for you. Afterwards, I want to discuss many things with you. I need a new cow for example, and a few other simple requests - but for now, please eat."_

Saying that Bhai Dhanna ji sat in front of Thakur and waited.  And waited. And waited.  After a while, Bhai Dhanna ji said, _"Look Thakur, I really have no time for your play.  Come and eat at once!  I have many things to do."_

After several hours, Bhai Dhanna ji thought perhaps Thakur ji was annoyed at him – May be he has done something wrong. So Bhai Dhanna ji tried to persuade Thakur ji to forgive him: _"Look here Thakur, I haven't eaten in a while. Now it is entirely possible that I have done something to annoy you but believe you me, we can discuss this much better after this Saag and Makkee dee Roti is in our stomachs."_ Still nothing happened. Slowly the night deepened. It was now pitch dark outside and the Thakur was showing no signs of eating the delicious food. 

Bhai Dhanna ji was now getting angry and said, _"Look Thakur, I have one nerve left and you are dancing on it.  Either eat your food or I will...."_, Bhai Dhanna ji couldn't really think of anything else to say so he bust out in anger. Still nothing happened! The angry outburst had no effect on the Thakur. 



Pretty soon, Danna ji could see light skies in the East and soon it was going to became daylight. Bhai Dhanna ji felt quite disoriented and confused. Sometimes Bhai Dhanna ji would curse the Thakur, sometimes Bhai Dhanna ji would hug the Thakur and sometimes Bhai Dhanna ji would start crying. 



Two long and hungry nights and days passed in this manner. Dhanna ji tried every way to convince the Thakur to take the food. He tried with all the tricks that he knew, with all the love that he could muster, with all the pleadings that he knew, with all the anger – But nothing appeared to work. Dhanna Ji was a stubborn farmer but he was failing miserably here. However, his conviction had not faltered. He kept working on his begging and pleadings. 

Then at amrit vela (early dawn) on the third day, when Dhanna ji was too weak to curse any more, Waheguru decided to intervene. To stop Dhanna from going mad, Waheguru gave Bhai Danna a vision in the form of a young man. It was the most beautiful body of a young man. Dhanna ji lost all his anger and just stared at the young man. 



Speaking through the young man Waheguru said,  _"Dhanna ji, Sorry, I am late…”_ Dhanna ji interrupted and said, _“I will warm up the food. Thakur Ji you must eat the food – You must also be very hungry”_ Dhanna Ji fed the young man and ate the remaining food himself after having stayed hungry for over 2 days. 



After, eating the food, Dhanna Ji said to Waheguru, _“As I said to you two days ago, I have a few things to discuss with you. First there is the work of the farm and then…”_ 

Bhai Dhanna ji fell head over heels in love with the young man (through whom God spoke to him). He couldn't resist being with the young man. They spent the next few days literally arm in arm. Even at night, Bhai Dhanna ji would hold Waheguru 's hand and listen to Waheguru's songs - Waheguru sang a lot - and would drift off to sleep. A week later, the Pundit was passing Bhai Dhanna ji's hut. Bhai Dhanna ji saw him and ran to him and said, _"Oh, Pundit ji, you are the most wonderful man. I can never thank you enough for giving me that marvellous Thakur..."_ 

Pundit, _"What you on about???  OK, Oh, yeah, sure, anytime.  Look, I am in a hurry. I am going to the big Pundit conference ..."_ 

  Bhai Dhanna ji:  _"But please come and drink some lassi (Milk Shake).  Thakur ji makes the best lassi."_ 

Pundit:  _"What now?  What are you saying? Thakur makes something?"_ 

Bhai Dhanna ji:  _"Oh yes! It’s the best in the world.  Just look at him, how handsome he is!"_ 

Pundit ji looked and indeed he could see that someone was pushing the cows on the farm.  And yet there was nobody to be seen. 



Pundit ji: _"Who is controlling the cows. Who is that?"_ 

Bhai Dhanna ji:  _"Why, that is Thakur ji, of course.  Can’t you recognise him. Oh, you should hear him sing...It’s out of this world!"_ 

Pundit ji was quite intrigued by now. And kept repeatedly asking Bhai Dhanna ji about Thakur. After a while Bhai Dhanna ji realized that Pundit could not see Thakur ji. Dhanna ji promised that he would talk to Thakur about this. 

  The Pundit left.  Bhai Dhanna ji went to Waheguru and said, _"Thakur ji, how come Pundit ji can't see you?"_ 

Waheguru:  _"The Pundit really doesn't want to see me. He is more interested in my maid – Maya and he is captivated in it entanglement. He has no real interest in me only in my creation"_ 

Dhanna ji:  _"But I don't understand.  Why can I see you and others cannot? How can one begin to see you?"_

Waheguru:  _"One has to become pure.  And in this age, Dhanna ji, the only way to become pure is by reciting Naam."_ 

Dhanna ji: _"Naam?"_ 

Waheguru: _"Naam is the magic of this age.  Even a few minutes of Naam Simran will bring the magic that is needed to see me."_ 

Dhanna ji:  _"But, I haven't recited Naam.  How come I can see you?"_ 

The young man, touched Bhai Dhanna ji 's forehead. Bhai Dhanna ji's surat went inside. Inside he saw that he, Bhai Dhanna ji, had done heavy tapasaya for over many lifetimes. He had stood in water all night and in the hot sun all day. He had hung upside down for several lifetimes. He had been a celibate in one lifetime and a moni (ones who don't talk) in another. But he had progressed spiritually very little. 

Then in his previous life, he had met an adept Guru who had given him Naam. And by doing Naam Simran for just one lifetime, Bhai Dhanna ji had become pure. Seeing Waheguru ji was the reward for his Naam from previous life. 

  Bhai Dhanna ji fell at the young man's feet and cried.  Saying, _"Please forgive this fool, I treated you as an equal..."_ 

The young man ji picked him and held him close, singing songs of comfort, _"Bhai Dhanna ji, now the time is right to leave. The way you see me now is the superficial way of meeting me. The real way is inside. Now you must start Naam Simran again and then I will meet you inside."_ 

Saying that the young man vanished into thin air. Bhai Dhanna ji was enlightened now. He restarted his Naam Simran with each breath. Within days, Bhai Dhanna ji had parkash (sighting) of Waheguru ji within his mind and through this enlightenment; we today have the benefit of Dhanna Bani in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 


It is all here. Spiritual darkness, spiritual sleep. There is  enlightenment (jyote). Spiritual hunger, and spiritual food (the lentils and the ghee of the shabad, saag and corn roti in the sakhi, the humble meal of a peasant). This food is humility, the food that quiets and satisfies the mind. It is here. The simple understanding, the unbroken devotion, also here. Devotion (devotional worship in the shabad) is the true arti. Even the milk cow (the symbol of spiritual fulfillment)  is here. The simple faith in the Guru and the reward,  the Grace of the Guru--- all here. Guru rewards devotion with enlightenment.

ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jo jan thumaree bhagath karanthae thin kae kaaj savaarathaa ||1|| rehaao ||
You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause||

This is the admission of Bhagatji,  a humble servant (jan) who realizes that his slavish devotion to the Lord (Thakur in the sakhi) will be rewarded because Waheguru will arrange for his enlightenment, and for the enlightenment of all who performed your devotional worship service (the true arti).


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## Astroboy

Gopal Tera Aarta 


Singers: Bhai Tajinder Singh Ji Shimla Wale 
  Lyricists: Bhai Tajinder Singh Ji Shimla Wale


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## spnadmin

*This is the link to the Gopal Tera Arte, posted by NamJap ji.
*
Listen and you will hear it again. Gopal Tera Aarta song from album Kaisi Aarti Hoye (vol. 4) - Kaisi Aarti Hoye (vol. 4) songs - Bhangra - Songs, Soundtrack, Music, Lyrics, Videos and Trailers - Kaisi Aarti Hoye (vol. 4) - SmasHits.com


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## spnadmin

Keep listening.

YouTube - Prof. Surinder Singh ~ Raag Dhanasri ~ Gopal Tera Aarta


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## Astroboy

The language of God.  Raag is what God speaks.  Raag is the musical classifications of 
the divine dialogues, divine words, Shabad Guru, scriptures.
This divine music is the Amrit and is heard in the Dassam Duaar on a never ending and continuous basis. 
 GurBani says, “Anhad shabad dassam duaar vajjyeaa taa amrit naam chuaayeaa thaa.”


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## Taranjeet singh

<> vwihgurU jI kI Pqh ]
The Lord is one and the Victory is of the Lord.
*Ik Oankaar Waheguroo ji ki Fateh||*

sRI BgauqI jI shwie ]
May SRI BHAGAUTI JI (The Sword) be helpful.........................................................1
*Sri Bhagauti ji sahaae||*

vwr sRI BgauqI jI kI ] pwqswhI 10 ]
The Heroic Poem of Sri Bhagauti Ji (Goddess Durga). (By) Th Tenth Kingg (Guru)......2
*Vaar Sri Bhagauti ji ki|| Patshahi||10||*

ipRQm BgyMqI ismir kY guru nwnk leIN iDAwie ]
In the beginning I remember Bhagauti, the Lord (Whose symbol is the sword and then I remember Guru Nanak............................................................................3
*Pritham bhagauti simar kai Gur Naanak laee dhiaae||*

iPr AMgd gur qy Amrdwsu rwmdwsY hoeIN shwie ]
Then I remember Guru Arjan, Guru Amar Das and Guru Ram Das, may they be helpful to me.
*Phir Angad Gur te Amardas raamdasai hoee sahaae||*

Arjn hirgoibMd no ismryM sRI hirrwie ]
Then I remember Guru Arjan, Guru Hargobind and Guru Har Rai.
*Arjan Harigobind no simrau Sri Hariraae||*

sRI hir ikSn iDAweIAY ijs ifTy siB duiK jwie ]
(After them) I remember Guru Har Kishan, by whose sight all the sufferings vanish.
*Sri Har Kishan dhiaaeeai jis dithe sabh dukh jaae||*

qyg bhwdr ismirAY Gr nau iniD AwvY Dwie ]
Then I do remember Guru Tegh Bahadur, though whose Grace the nine treasures come running to my house.
*Teg Bahaadar simariai ghar nau nidh aavai dhaae||||*

sB QweIN hoie shwie ] 1]
May they be helpful to me everywhere.1.
*Sabh thaaee hoe sahaae||1||*


In the above Guru Sahib is referring to 

1.SRI BHAGAUTI JI
and 

2.The Heroic Poem of Sri Bhagauti Ji (Goddess Durga). (By) Th Tenth Kingg (Guru).
3.In the beginning I remember Bhagauti, the Lord (Whose symbol is the sword and then I remember Guru Nanak.

Is the reference made to the Almighty as Bhagauti or it is made to Chandi, Durga or Kali?
As an aspirant and as the common sense goes the meaning should be assigned to the Creator. Nonetheless, the assumptions may incorrect. 
May like to share your views and throw some light.


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## spnadmin

twinkle ji 

This has been discussed on another thread. It is a topic that leads to endless variations on a theme and goes nowhere. 

Why not look up a different problem from Gurbani. I will find the Durga/Sword/ thread and paste it here for you so you can read the discussion.

Thanks.


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## Taranjeet singh

sRI hir ikSn iDAweIAY ijs ifTy siB duiK jwie ]
 (After them) I remember Guru Har Kishan, by whose sight all the sufferings vanish.
*Sri Har Kishan dhiaaeeai jis dithe sabh dukh jaae||*.....................................................................1

 qyg bhwdr ismirAY Gr nau iniD AwvY Dwie ]
 Then I do remember Guru Tegh Bahadur, though whose Grace the nine treasures come running to my house.
 *Teg Bahaadar simariai ghar nau nidh aavai dhaae||||.................................................................2


Respected N Kaur ji,
Very many thanks for the reply. Shall skip over as suggested by you. Switching back to the part of Ardas, as quoted above, the Tenth master states specifically  about  the consequences of meditating upon Guru Harkishan and Guru Teg Bahadur ji Maharaaj. [some benefits that would accrue to the devotee on meditating/remembering  upon the two Gurus.]

All the Gurus are considered as one 'jyot' and the advantages/consequences/benefits that should accrue by remembering/meditating upon one Guru or the second or the ninth should be same and exactly the same if the above premise holds good. 


Kindly correct the erratic thinking by throwing some light on this aspect. Hope I could express that was intended.

Regards as usual. 

Note: I cannot ask these sorts of question to my friends who visit Gurudwara and hence am bothering the cyber -friends here on this site.
 
*Fonts made smaller because big fonts are hard to read. Narayanjot kaur*
*


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## spnadmin

twinkle ji =

If you read the entire Ardaas you will come to a different conclusion. You have singled out one seciton -- 

It is my humble understanding that this particular section is meant to teach particular lessons learned from the sufferings of Guru Harkrishan and Guru Teg Bahadur. In other words, each one had a story we can learn from if we meditate on their lives. Guru Harkrishan contracted and died from smallpox because of his seva to victims of smallpox. Guru Teg Bahadur was falsely accused and his death particularly horrible in his seva to victims of religious injustice. The lesson: There is no greater love than to serve even when seva exposed us to trickery, slander, and ultimately death. Death is not as terrible as a world where no one lifts a hand of compassion or utters a word of truth.

Of course all of the Gurus teach these lessons, but read Ardaas and you will see how it is divided up so that particular points of meditation and simran are spot-lighted. 

BTW - why do these recent posts on the thread ad look like trolling to me?


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## spnadmin

This should clear all of your doubts

ARDAS

*






**dsW                pwqSwhIAW dI joq sRI gurU gRMQ swihb jI dy pwT dIdwr dw iDAwn Dr                ky bolo jI vwihgurU!*​ *THE                SPIRIT OF ALL THE TEN KINGS (GURUS) ENSHRINED IN THE VISIBLE BODY                AND THE WORD OF THE GURU GRANTH, CONCENTRATE ON THAT AND SAY, SIRES,THE                CONGREGATION: WAHEGURU *​


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## Taranjeet singh

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> twinkle ji =
> 
> If you read the entire Ardaas you will come to a different conclusion. You have singled out one seciton --
> 
> It is my humble understanding that this particular section is meant to teach particular lessons learned from the sufferings of Guru Harkrishan and Guru Teg Bahadur. In other words, each one had a story we can learn from if we meditate on their lives. Guru Harkrishan contracted and died from smallpox because of his seva to victims of smallpox. Guru Teg Bahadur was falsely accused and his death particularly horrible in his seva to victims of religious injustice. The lesson: There is no greater love than to serve even when seva exposed us to trickery, slander, and ultimately death. Death is not as terrible as a world where no one lifts a hand of compassion or utters a word of truth.
> 
> Of course all of the Gurus teach these lessons, but read Ardaas and you will see how it is divided up so that particular points of meditation and simran are spot-lighted.
> 
> BTW - why do these recent posts on the thread ad look like trolling to me?



That is sufficient to answer the question. 
*BTW:*For someone  the answers may look to be simple and common-sensical and hence the posts may appear to be a troll to someone who is adept in almost all aspects.


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## spnadmin

twinkle said:


> That is sufficient to answer the question.
> *BTW:*For someone  the answers may look to be simple and common-sensical and hence the posts may appear to be a troll to someone who is adept in almost all aspects.



You give me too much credit veer ji, and not enough credit to your own self.


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## Sikh80

Narayanjot Ji, you have presented your case in this matter very diligently but being a full time practicing advocate myself, i would like to go at the bottom of the story behind the question asked by dear twinkle which still stands:



> Switching back to the part of Ardas, as quoted above, the Tenth master states specifically about the consequences of meditating upon Guru Harkishan and Guru Teg Bahadur ji Maharaaj. [some benefits that would accrue to the devotee on meditating/remembering upon the two Gurus.



Why would the Tenth Master state the names only these two Gurus, He could have choose name of other Gurus as well... i am sure, you like to shed some more light on this issue in more depth...  for the benefit of our jury, i mean, our readership... 

Kindly explain..... Regards to All


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## prakash.s.bagga

Ref:Gurbaani understanding,
In the SHABAD under consideration the following are important words which need proper understanding.
1....SATiGUR     The reference is for GUR not for GURU
2....SACHu
3....GURMUKH(i)  This word is with Sihari matra so this is not reference for persons
4....GUR POORE    Again the reference is GUR  not GURU

The correct understanding of above refered words would reveal more correct meaning of the SHABAD..

We should look to the correct reference meaning of Gurbaani words then only we shall be able to get the True Message of Gurbaani.
With best Wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin

prakash.s.baggaj i

This would be the second time in 1 week when you have made a cryptic comment, and previously when I asked you to elaborate for the benefit of readers, you supplied another cryptic response.

Please state your case. Do not allude to special pronunciations, spellings, and word meanings, without details, as has happened so often in the past. Either give us your clarifications and explanations, or I will need to delete your posts. I would not ordinarily make an issue of this. However, the pattern has been to take a thread of course, away from topic and onto a discussion of linguistics. Could we make a fresh start? Thank you


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## prakash.s.bagga

SPNADMIN Ji,
Taking note of your message I feel that probably I am unable to understand the requirement of Forum Readers.It seems every body wants to understand in his own ways Which I find difficult to agree .So this is going to be persistent problem with my postings.
Therefore henceforth I have decided to withdraw myself from the Forum because I do not want to put you in any embarassing state where you may be required to have different view.
With best wishes to all.
Prakash.S.bagga


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## spnadmin

prakash.s.bagga ji

That sounds like a drastic solution to a problem that is actually very practical. All I ask is that you develop your ideas in more detail. It is the nature of a forum that people of every stripe will disagree and debate. With that debate there is a learning curve. Even if someone does not agree with you, they have to thank you for giving them the chance to clarify their own thinking. That is one way that you, and others, contribute without realizing that it is a contribution. The choice is yours. However, I think elaboration and explanation is the better choice.

Thanks so much.


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## prakash.s.bagga

SPNADMIN Ji,
Accept my Divine Greetings,
I fully appreciate your suggestions.I understand that the network is not exclusive for my postings.The conents of the posts are equally important .
I find that there is Divergence right from A of Gurbaani understanding and my views are many times diametrically opposite to what has been said so far.But I present nothing out of Gurbaani.
If you give a little thought to a view about the fact that we all refer to the numerical number ONE  as indicative of GOD is ONE.Whereis such a concept in Gurbaani.?It means  GURU and GOD are two distinct identities and we are required to meet GOD thru GURU.Gurbaani is not telling so.Gurbaani is all about THE WORD GURU only .There can be nothing beyond this.
So if our A is wrong then how can the rest of understanding be correct?
I am basically a technical person with academic background.Due to my background I may be poor in presenting my views in a way to be understood easily.I do admit that.But I am not confused about the Basic Concept of Gurbaani which is based on THE WORD GURU only.
I may try to improve my presentation but for sometime it would be better for me to be away from interaction in the Forums.
With best wishes,once again thanking you.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## onybiz

Sikh80 veer ji, you are using my photograph as your profile avtar. Please remove it.

Gurfateh
Taranjit


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## spnadmin

spadmin note:

onybiz/Taranjit ji I have put in a request for an IP check to see if impersonation could be the case. In any event, we may decide to replace the avatar on our own. Sikh80 ji has not visited SPN in some time and may not even know of your request. An impersonal avatar should resolve the problem all the way around. But first we need to look into this.


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