# What Is 'True Destiny" In Sikhism?



## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Nov 9, 2012)

please discuss here the true destiny in sikhism, and please give your respected oppinions on it. to my oppinion it is such khand.. thanks


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## ruval (Nov 9, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!

True Destiny of a sikh is to attain the lotus feet of his beloved guru  and to merge with the Jyot of the Akalpurakh.


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## namjiwankaur (Nov 9, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

_/|\_  Sat Nam



ruval said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!
> 
> True Destiny of a sikh is to attain the lotus feet of his beloved guru  and to merge with the Jyot of the Akalpurakh.



I agree.  Even if it takes more than one lifetime, but I think all mystics (those whose life is devoted to God), openly or secretly crave nirvana/awakening in this lifetime.  I know I do!  

japposatnamwaheguru:
Nam Jiwan


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## chazSingh (Nov 9, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

to understand what TRUE LOVE is...when we do something in TRUE LOVE, we do it without desire, without hate, without wanting anything in return, zero ego...it becomes an action of pure love i.e. God.

i dont think anyone can 'aim' for sach khand. we cant really aim for something we dont really understand i think.

my wife is very materialistic, she's always aiming for the better house, better car...it's her focus....what she doesnt understand is, all of her aims are not under her control...
it all depends on what opportunities are given to her, how many people require her service, on her boss giving her the pay rise, or promotion.

all she can do is work truthfully, work hard, and hope for the best. 

In the same way all we can do is offer our mind, body and belongings to our guru.
If you're aiming for something, you want something in return and it could become a desire. True love has no desire...a very thin line i think.

sacrifice our time for helping others, sacrificing our time and energy for Simran/Meditation, and sharing our earning with others....I believe to do this and sustain it over our lifetimes, requires dedication and most importantly love...true love.

Everything else God does...everything we need to realise will be shown to us. Sach Khand is just a word to me, doesnt really mean anything...but i know i can surrender bit by bit what i have in time and effort for something i have faith, beliefe and a sudden longing for.

just my thoughts from my personal experiences.

God bless


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## Luckysingh (Nov 9, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



chazSingh said:


> to understand what TRUE LOVE is...when we do something in TRUE LOVE, we do it without desire, without hate, without wanting anything in return, zero ego...it becomes an action of pure love i.e. God.
> 
> i dont think anyone can 'aim' for sach khand. we cant really aim for something we dont really understand i think.
> 
> ...


 
I mostly agree here, sach khand being the goal is not the real idea because it's only what we think we know about feelings in this life form that we think we shall be in bliss and anand in sach khand.
It is usually best to avoid such fantasy heaven ideas similar to 72 virgins in islam!!
I mean, your conscious which is what lives on and will enter such realms, then this conscious doesn't have the same feelings of lust and joy that we have now!!

My views have changed a little recently and now I realise that when one strips them selves of Ego and worldly desires, then one will come to realise that there is infact NO ME !! 
The ME does not really exist and it is ALL HIM.
When we reach this state of mind, I think you realize that the destiny is just HIM and HIS Will or Hukam.

These goals that we set ourselves are good in order to progress but I think as we move forward spiritualywe come to realise that the ME and the I SHOULD DO THIS, is ALL non-existant as it is ALL HIM.

Therefore, I have began to think that the TRUE REALISATION is this very realising that it is ALL him. But we have to have the ego aspects, of 'I should try', 'I should do this', 'I need to better myself' ...etc. in order that we can proceed to the goal of 'Realisation' 

Once we can do this by stripping off ego an desires completely, then we can also realise that destiny, free will, written destiny, karma...etc... is NOT even affecting us, as it is ALL HIM and His Will.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 9, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

I finally have some like-minded company on this forum. Thank you Lucky Singh ji and Chaz Singh ji. Your posts are warmly received.0


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## Luckysingh (Nov 9, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



BhagatSingh said:


> I finally have some like-minded company on this forum. Thank you Lucky Singh ji and Chaz Singh ji. Your posts are warmly received.0


 
I think we express our feelings more than the usual learned and logic.
I have never felt this way and I must admit that it is after going into deep meditation and simran that you just get this intuition. 
It's just like you know somehow !!
I could may well be wrong, but I can't find any fault into thinking in this manner anymore.
It's like you realise what 'realisation' actually is. 
Not because I have got the full realisation yet, but because I have to keep some of the ego to actually get there in order to strip it fully !

I think it's important to deeply understand what is temporary and what is permanent, although you have to utilise all the temporary resources in this world to be able to realise the permanent.

Waheguru


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 10, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



Luckysingh said:


> I think we express our feelings more than the usual learned and logic.
> I have never felt this way and I must admit that it is after going into deep meditation and simran that you just get this intuition.
> It's just like you know somehow !!


That's exactly how it with me, like an inner-knowing. 

I think Gurus would ascribe this not to themselves or their intuition but to God Himself. I am trying to work towards that myself because I think calling it "my intuition" could fuel the ego just a tad bit but enough to lose sight of reality. Though I could be wrong, it maybe possible to feel so one with God as to ascribe everything to yourself! Such a person might even say they are God, which we would normally associate with a lot of ego, in their case it maybe the act of greatest humility and truth.




> I could may well be wrong, but I can't find any fault into thinking in this manner anymore.
> It's like you realise what 'realisation' actually is.
> Not because I have got the full realisation yet, but because I have to keep some of the ego to actually get there in order to strip it fully !


Yeah same with 'explanation'.  How do you explain to someone that which explains everything?



> I think it's important to deeply understand what is temporary and what is permanent, although you have to utilise all the temporary resources in this world to be able to realise the permanent.
> 
> Waheguru


You said it


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## palaingtha (Nov 11, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



chazSingh said:


> to understand what TRUE LOVE is...when we do something in TRUE LOVE, we do it without desire, without hate, without wanting anything in return, zero ego...it becomes an action of pure love i.e. God.
> 
> i dont think anyone can 'aim' for sach khand. we cant really aim for something we dont really understand i think.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your views.
If a man has clean concious he will only do good deeds. Evil thoughts will never transpire his mind. He will abstain from hurting others, even his sworn enemy/ies. Whenever and wherever possible he will serve others and find happiness in it.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 11, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

PALAINGTHA Ji,
I refer to your views as
"If a man has clean concious he will only do good deeds. Evil thoughts will never transpire his mind. He will abstain from hurting others, even his sworn enemy/ies. Whenever and wherever possible he will serve others and find happiness in it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> "

This is true but how a man can have clean concious.Are there any efforts for this.?

My understandind is that True destity in Sikhi is what is predestined and this can 
not be changed .Ultimately it is the Hukamu that is playing the whole game of
destiny.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## palaingtha (Nov 11, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> PALAINGTHA Ji,
> I refer to your views as
> "If a man has clean concious he will only do good deeds. Evil thoughts will never transpire his mind. He will abstain from hurting others, even his sworn enemy/ies. Whenever and wherever possible he will serve others and find happiness in it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> "
> 
> ...



As per my understanding I have to say that We have Free "will" to do our actions whether they are good or bad. Suppose a man lived a good, honest, honourable life and he dies to be born again. His actions and  deeds follow him to the next incarnation (life), and he carries on with his good deeds which is very likely. Thus if he carries on with good actions and lives life remembering God he is most likely to move towards Mukti. But on the contrary if he changes his course of action and indulges in bad actions, he will be turning back from Mukti. The same for a man who lived a life doing bad deeds, the life of a sinner, he will be indulging in bad deeds in next life , but if he happens to meet a saint and is influenced to be reformed to do good deeds he will turn towards God/Mukti.

Suppose a man goes to buy apples and he pays a Rs.500/- currency note. Apples are worth Rs.150/. But by a mistake the shop keeper returns him Rs.450/-. Here the concious comes into play. A man with clean concious will check again and take his Rs.350/- and return Rs.100/- without second thoughts. But a man with no clean concious will walk away.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 11, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

From Gurbanee one can learn that Real Gurmikh is not under the influence of his FREE WILL.The FREE WILL becomes zero then only one can relish the essence of NAAMu

It would be equally important to understand the reference of SANT..
In Gurbanee GuRu itself is the only SANT one is required to meet
and meeting this SANT is also predestined.


Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 11, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.  A comment below.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> From Gurbanee one can learn that Real Gurmikh is not under the influence of his FREE WILL.The FREE WILL becomes zero then only one can relish the essence of NAAMu


_If we treat God/creator as parent, we know that even dumbest of all parents does not want child on a leash.  Creation is not on a leash like a dog.  Sometimes the symbology is the same as say in your note above_.

_The way you describe Hukam/diction is as though it is a leash for an animal which hence has no control what does or happens.  Sikhism does not teach us that.  What is recognized in Sikhism is that there is infinite to know.  What cannot be understood for any set of reasons is part of the infinite truth of creation and the creator.__  Some outcomes may never be understood as the variables to model the outcome are far too large a number.  Sikhism teaches us to recognize and respect this as Hukam.
_


prakash.s.bagga said:


> It would be equally important to understand the reference of SANT.. In Gurbanee GuRu itself is the only SANT one is required to meet and meeting this SANT is also predestined.


_Another useless mis-direction.  SGGS teaches one that company of the pious/Sant is great to be had.  Pre-destined stuff is the randomness in creation that we do not fully understand.__  Calling it pre-destined versus the truth of happening per rules of creation is another way to put blinkers to not search or learn or seek how creation is.  Sikhism teaches us to search, learn and seek and live thereof._

The stated approaches lead to sants/babas or the elite and blind faith.  Sikhism could not be any further from such associations and conjectures.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



Ambarsaria said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post. A comment below._If we treat God/creator as parent, we know that even dumbest of all parents does not want child on a leash. Creation is not on a leash like a dog. Sometimes the symbology is the same as say in your note above_.
> 
> _The way you describe Hukam/diction is as though it is a leash for an animal which hence has no control what does or happens. Sikhism does not teach us that. What is recognized in Sikhism is that there is infinite to know. What cannot be understood for any set of reasons is part of the infinite truth of creation and the creator.__ Some outcomes may never be understood as the variables to model the outcome are far too large a number. Sikhism teaches us to recognize and respect this as Hukam._
> _Another useless mis-direction. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches one that company of the pious/Sant is great to be had. Pre-destined stuff is the randomness in creation that we do not fully understand.__ Calling it pre-destined versus the truth of happening per rules of creation is another way to put blinkers to not search or learn or seek how creation is. Sikhism teaches us to search, learn and seek and live thereof._
> ...


 
I can only respect your understanding. Nothing more than this.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

The question is what is the Free will ?
We have to understand that the 'free will' which does exist and there is no denying that is ONLY in play whilst we are.

What does that really mean ?
We are what we think we are, or what we are in the worldly and maya state. We don't escape from it but we have to learn to ride through it and come out gurmukhs.
When someone is able to come out and have the realisation of pure truth then they will acknowledge that the 'free will' was not permanent. 
What is permanent and above all is the hukam and divine will.

Therfore the real governer above all actions and happenings is the divine will.

Question many will ask is, why have the free will then, if hukam governs everything ?
Well, this is how we are to learn. Do we use the free will to help us realise the truth or do we use it to fulfill and control our not so permanent life in the illusion !!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Question many will ask is, why have the free will then, if hukam governs everything ?
Well, this is how we are to learn. Do we use the free will to help us realise the truth or do we use it to fulfill and control our not so permanent life in the illusion !![/QUOTE]

LUCKY SINGH Ji,
Your point is very valid.
I am of the view that under the influence of so known "FREE WILL"
it is rather impossible to realise the truth.
When one makes oneself free from this thought of FREE WILL then only
one is able to understand and recognise HUKAMu of the Creator.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

lol lol lol lol lol lol 

I seem to have mistyped a web address and found a Hindu Philosophy website!

Karma, good deeds going into next lives, Fate all very interesting

I always thought the Sikh view was to align ones will with the will of Creator, why else would there be terms such as Manmukh and Gurmukh


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## Harry Haller (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



palaingtha said:


> I appreciate your views.
> If a man has clean concious he will only do good deeds. Evil thoughts will never transpire his mind. He will abstain from hurting others, even his sworn enemy/ies. Whenever and wherever possible he will serve others and find happiness in it.



unless the others are mona


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## chazSingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



Luckysingh said:


> I mostly agree here, sach khand being the goal is not the real idea because it's only what we think we know about feelings in this life form that we think we shall be in bliss and anand in sach khand.
> It is usually best to avoid such fantasy heaven ideas similar to 72 virgins in islam!!
> I mean, your conscious which is what lives on and will enter such realms, then this conscious doesn't have the same feelings of lust and joy that we have now!!
> 
> ...


 
There are so many quotes in gurbani saying that god is all that there is...everything is Him...gurbani almost slaps us in the face with this truth...

ego/mind had to be, inorder to create the seperateness, the individualisation. god is experiencing himself...i really belive that is the turth...hopefully i experience the true oneness one day.

illusion of Seperateness had to exists for the 'many' to occur. but when individualisation takes over, illusion takes hold completely, god created a way for us to return and experience the truth again...simran.Seva etc.


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## namjiwankaur (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

_/|\_  SatNam

A lot of people ask how can everything be living in accordance with both free will and Divine laws/hukam/preordination.  Only God knows some of this.  Our interpretation of God's plans are probably similar to how a two year old would interpret Guru Granth Sahib. (I am not insulting the Guru Granth Sahib; I'm saying a child would look at the Guru Granth Sahib much differently than a Sikh sage would. The same, imho, probably happens with our ability to fathom God's ways.) We are longing to know something we will really never know while locked up inside our earthly bodies.

For me, it seems that there is a "plan" which also involves a "plan" for free will.  It could be summed up simply by "Do you remember or forget Me?"  "Do you do good or bad deeds?  And there is the "instinct" to keep breathing and beating our hearts which is actually hukam (its not instinct, but people minimize it when it happens in the rest of the animal kingdom, etc.) 

Would this mesh with the Guru Granth Sahib's teachings?

Nam Jiwan


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Namjivan ji,
I think the best thing someone can do is try to understand the phenomenon of free will and understand the phenomenon of lack of free will. But people don't do this, it all sounds interesting to them but it makes no sense.

A while ago I met a old friend who said he hadn't even heard of free will until he came to Canada. He was from India, and he just didn't get what we call free will. Similarly folks born here just don't get what the Indians believe, and by extension what the Gurus believe. Again the best thing to do is keep an open mind and be ready to learn when such alien concepts are presented to you.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Namji{censored}aur ji,
There is a very appropriate message from Gurbanee as
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width="94%" background=paper.jpg><TBODY><TR><TD>*Page 736*
ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਸਰਬ ਰਜਾਈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਚੈ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੀਐ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਖੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ॥ ਅਸਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਮ ਸਾਕਹ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਬਖਸਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਦੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੂੰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਹੇ ਕੋ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਸਾਜੀ ਕੋਈ ਛੇਵਾ ਕਰਿਉ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਇਕਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਬੁਝਾਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿ ਰੋਵੈ ॥੩॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹਉ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਾ ਹਉ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਨੀਚਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸਿ ਲੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਪਇਆ ਅਜਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੫॥੨੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 736}
In this Sabad there is very clear message about the role of being predestined and Hukamu as well.
I hope you can understand the meanings of this Sabad.I shall try to give its meaning in Enlish shortly for your reference.
Prakash.S.Bagga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## namjiwankaur (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

_/|\_  Sat Nam

Prakash ji...

Yes, please translate for me into English.  Thank you.

Nam Jiwan kaurhug


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## chazSingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> Namji{censored}aur ji,
> There is a very appropriate message from Gurbanee as
> <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width="94%" background=paper.jpg><TBODY><TR><TD>*Page 736*
> ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਸਰਬ ਰਜਾਈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਚੈ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੀਐ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਖੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ॥ ਅਸਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਮ ਸਾਕਹ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਬਖਸਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਦੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੂੰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਹੇ ਕੋ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਸਾਜੀ ਕੋਈ ਛੇਵਾ ਕਰਿਉ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਇਕਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਬੁਝਾਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿ ਰੋਵੈ ॥੩॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹਉ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਾ ਹਉ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਨੀਚਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸਿ ਲੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਪਇਆ ਅਜਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੫॥੨੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 736}
> ...


 
Perfect, just perfect


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



> When someone is able to come out and have the realisation of pure truth  then they will acknowledge that the 'free will' was not permanent.
> What is permanent and above all is the hukam and divine will.


Lucky Singh ji,
This is getting there. I think Guru Sahibs would say that you have free will up to the point you understand hukam. After that only His hukam operates, and there is no individual will.


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## chazSingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



namji{censored}aur said:


> _/|\_ Sat Nam
> 
> Prakash ji...
> 
> ...


 
English translation:
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&pageno=736


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## namjiwankaur (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Sat Nam _/|\_

I posted an English translation from Sikhs.org.  It is a very readable format for those who don't know Punjabi, Gurmukhi, etc..  It speaks of the masterpiece of life very beautifully.  When I think two things are "opposite" such as God's will and our will, it usually helps to imagine things like images of Shiva-Shakti.  Or a coin with one picture on one side and another picture on the other side.  Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib speak of the awe of that kind of unity in what appears to be separated? 

Thanks for getting me to "Page 736".  I wonder if I can save these as files at Sikhnet where you can create and print.  

In Sufism, there is also the belief that all is done according to Divine Will.  Muslims say "Insha'Allah" (Arabic for God willing).  Maybe we just fool ourselves or foolishly believe we are more in control than we think we are.

There is a saying in 12 Steps "Let go and let God".  People tend to find serenity when they go with God's Way (The Tao describes this so well). There is also the serenity prayer which helps addicts get perspective.

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Again I bring up Neil Donald Walsh's picture book...The Little Soul and the Sun.  It puts all we are discussing in easy to understand language.

 Nam Jiwan


Page 736
They suffer the terrible pains of birth and death. By Guru's Grace, a few rare ones are saved; I am a sacrifice to those humble beings. || 3 || The One who created the Universe, that Lord alone knows. His beauty is incomparable. O Nanak, the Lord Himself gazes upon it, and is pleased. The Gurmukh contemplates God. || 4 || 3 || 14 || SOOHEE, FOURTH MEHL: All that happens, and all that will happen, is by His Will. If we could do something by ourselves, we would. By ourselves, we cannot do anything at all. As it pleases the Lord, He preserves us. || 1 || O my Dear Lord, everything is in Your power. I have no power to do anything at all. As it pleases You, You forgive us. || 1 || Pause || You Yourself bless us with soul, body and everything. You Yourself cause us to act. As You issue Your Commands, so do we act, according to our pre-ordained destiny. || 2 || You created the entire Universe out of the five elements; if anyone can create a sixth, let him. You unite some with the True Guru, and cause them to understand, while others, the self-willed manmukhs, do their deeds and cry out in pain. || 3 || I cannot describe the glorious greatness of the Lord; I am foolish, thoughtless, idiotic and lowly. Please, forgive servant Nanak, O my Lord and Master; I am ignorant, but I have entered Your Sanctuary. || 4 || 4 || 15 || 24 ||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



namji{censored}aur said:


> _/|\_ Sat Nam
> 
> Prakash ji...
> 
> ...


 
ChazSingh ji has given the correct reference I am posting the same as

<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 50px" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top> 
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>sUhI mhlw 4 ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>s*oo*h*ee* mehal*aa* 4 ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_Soohee, Fourth Mehla:_

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>kIqw krxw srb rjweI ikCu kIcY jy kir skIAY ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>k*ee*th*aa* karan*aa* sarab raj*aa**ee* k*i*shh k*ee*ch*ai* j*ae* kar sak*ee**ai* ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_All that happens, and all that will happen, is by His Will. If we could do something by ourselves, we would._

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>Awpxw kIqw ikCU n hovY ijau hir BwvY iqau rKIAY ]1]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>*aa*pan*aa* k*ee*th*aa* k*i*shh*oo* n h*o*v*ai* j*i*o har bh*aa*v*ai* th*i*o rakh*ee**ai* ||1||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_By ourselves, we cannot do anything at all. As it pleases the Lord, He preserves us. ||1||_

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>myry hir jIau sBu ko qyrY vis ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>m*ae*r*ae* har j*ee*o sabh k*o* th*ae*r*ai* vas ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_O my Dear Lord, everything is in Your power._

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>Asw joru nwhI jy ikCu kir hm swkh ijau BwvY iqvY bKis ]1] rhwau ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>as*aa* j*o*r n*aa*h*ee* j*ae* k*i*shh kar ham s*aa*keh j*i*o bh*aa*v*ai* th*i*v*ai* bakhas ||1|| reh*aa*o ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_I have no power to do anything at all. As it pleases You, You forgive us. ||1||Pause||_

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>sBu jIau ipMfu dIAw quDu Awpy quDu Awpy kwrY lwieAw ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>sabh j*ee*o p*i*(n)dd dh*ee**aa* th*u*dhh *aa*p*ae* th*u*dhh *aa*p*ae* k*aa*r*ai* l*aa*e*i**aa* ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_You Yourself bless us with soul, body and everything. You Yourself cause us to act._

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>jyhw qUM hukmu krih qyhy ko krm kmwvY jyhw quDu Duir iliK pwieAw ]2]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>j*ae*h*aa* th*oo*(n) h*u*kam kareh*i* th*ae*h*ae* k*o* karam kam*aa*v*ai* j*ae*h*aa* th*u*dhh dhh*u*r l*i*kh p*aa*e*i**aa* ||2||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_As You issue Your Commands, so do we act, according to our pre-ordained destiny. ||2||_
<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 50px" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>pMc qqu kir quDu isRsit sB swjI koeI Cyvw kirau jy ikCu kIqw hovY ]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>pa(n)ch thath kar th*u*dhh sr*i*satt sabh s*aa*j*ee* k*o**ee* shh*ae*v*aa* kar*i*o j*ae* k*i*shh k*ee*th*aa* h*o*v*ai* ||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_You created the entire Universe out of the five elements; if anyone can create a sixth, let him._
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>ieknw siqguru myil qUM buJwvih ieik mnmuiK krih is rovY ]3]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>e*i*kan*aa* sath*i*g*u*r m*ae*l th*oo*(n) b*u*jh*aa*veh*i* e*i*k manam*u*kh kareh*i* s r*o*v*ai* ||3||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_You unite some with the True Guru, and cause them to understand, while others, the self-willed manmukhs, do their deeds and cry out in pain. ||3||_
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>hir kI vifAweI hau AwiK n swkw hau mUrKu mugDu nIcwxu ]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>har k*ee* vadd*i**aa**ee* ho *aa*kh n s*aa*k*aa* ho m*oo*rakh m*u*gadhh n*ee*ch*aa*n ||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_I cannot describe the glorious greatness of the Lord; I am foolish, thoughtless, idiotic and lowly._
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>jn nwnk kau hir bKis lY myry suAwmI srxwgiq pieAw Ajwxu ]4]4]15]24]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>jan n*aa*nak ko har bakhas l*ai* m*ae*r*ae* s*u**aa*m*ee* saran*aa*gath pae*i**aa* aj*aa*n ||4||4||15||24||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_Please, forgive servant Nanak, O my Lord and Master; I am ignorant, but I have entered Your Sanctuary. ||4||4||15||24||_

_Prakash.S.Bagga_
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


----------



## Luckysingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

What else needs to be said, when this shabad tells all ?
Let's start living by the word of shabad.


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## namjiwankaur (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

_/|\_  Sat Nam

Thanks Prakash ji and Lucky ji.  What an amazing gift the Guru Granth Sahib is to all humanity....helping us find our way. peacesign

Nam Jiwan


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## palaingtha (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> From Gurbanee one can learn that Real Gurmikh is not under the influence of his FREE WILL.The FREE WILL becomes zero then only one can relish the essence of NAAMu
> 
> It would be equally important to understand the reference of SANT..
> In Gurbanee GuRu itself is the only SANT one is required to meet
> ...



We have been sent to do our deeds good or bad and depending our deeds we are born again and again or attain Moksha. That means Gurbani says we are at our free will to do our deeds. Destiny is we meet bad or good people depending on which our life courses are changed.

God do not bestow destiny one to do bad things, like, swindling, cheating, indulging in fraudulent actions,manufacturing spurious medicines, indulging in food adultrations etc. etc. We do these things or good things due to our dishonesty or truthfulness. That means our actions are swayed by our minds.

Gurbani wants us to be honest. And if we go by Gurbani we will not do bad things but if we are MANMUKHS we will not be impressed by Gurbani and indulge in actions as our mind dictates.

If everything is controlled by destiny nobody is to be blamed for his actions. Or for that matter appreciated.

When one meets a saint his course is not automatically changed. If he is impressed by the saints words he will start listening to him. Otherwise he may ignore what the good man preaches/advises.


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## palaingtha (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



harry haller said:


> unless the others are mona



To be honest is not confined to his co-religionists. To be honest, to be kind, to be generous etc. is a must for us to persons of irrespective of cast and creed., even to all creatures.
Now,will you stop the taunting tone?
You could have posed me an honest question.
But, you know, a zebra will not shed its stripes. How true!!!


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Palaingtha ji,
Yes people can choose to do whatever they want or desire, whether good or bad. This is free will correct?

But can they choose their wants and desires?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 12, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

PALAINGTHA Ji,

I dont know what saints you are talking about.
I have known only ONE SANT-SGGS

One should always listen to good people and live in their company also
if they talk about the teachings of SGGS.

But it can be observed most the times it does not happen so

So one should understand can there be teachings from persons 
better than the teachings from SGGS?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 14, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Prakash ji,
There is Sant Ramanand ji, Sant Kabir ji, Sant Ravidas ji, Bibi Mirabai ji, I could go on, which were present and recognized as Sants during Guru's times.
Then there are present-day ("modern") Sants like Sant Sukha Singh ji, Sant Jarnail Singh ji, Sant Isher Singh ji.
sant baba sukha singh ji  at ashram nirmal kutiya tarn tarn( diwali di raat ) - YouTube
RARE video. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale speech at Baba Atal Rai Gurdwara Sahib - YouTube
Raakhahu Raakhanehaar Dhaeiaalaa - Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji - YouTube

I should be fair, there are also non-Indian Sants like Eckharte Tolle and Thich Nhat Hanh.
Eckhart Tolle - Transmuting Suffering into Peace - 1 of 3 - YouTube
What is Nirvana ? - YouTube


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Bhagat Singh Ji,
I am sorry to state that some people have grossly misused the use of the word
SANT as reference for the persons. This is the result of ignorance about the 
knowledge of true reference of this word.
From Gurbanee this is clarified that it is GuRu only as SANTu.Since people 
could not dare to be refered themselves as GuRu in presence of SGGS as GuRu
so they chose another word for themselves as SANT.
One can see that the traddition of GuRoo ship transfer is most oldest tradition in 
any field.This tradtion still exist more specifically in the field of Music and ARTS

.In spritual field since Sikhs have SGGS as GuRoo so there is no need of any 
human person as GuRu./GuRoo.

So now any person can be /should be refered as SEWAK/DAAS of SGGS.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Without god s realisation we are still wonderers


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> Bhagat Singh Ji,
> I am sorry to state that some people have grossly misused the use of the word
> SANT as reference for the persons. This is the result of ignorance about the
> knowledge of true reference of this word.
> ...


Prakash ji what is your source of this.
I mean the word Sant just means "Enlightened one". There are many enlightened beings around the globe, and some make an appearance in public. We can learn from the teachings they preach.

Now I am ok with someone saying Guru Granth Sahib ji is all you need to attain enlightenment. I think  seeing, listening to enlightened beings can also help.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

I mean the word Sant just means "Enlightened one". There are many enlightened beings around the globe, and some make an appearance in public. We can learn from the teachings they preach.

BHAGAT SINGH Ji, 
Why cant we refer enlightened persons as BRAHAMGIYANI.? I think this can be still 
more appropriate reference than SANT 

My understanding is that PRIMARILY all Noun words(Singular or Plural) are references for 
GuRu/GuR or Prabhu/Prabh.
In context of enlightened ones these references are like SANT JAN or SADH JAN.
Due to this misconception people run after so called self styled SANT/SANTS and
remain distracted from the REAL SANT.

I think the most appropriate reference can be BHAI SAHIB Ji but this reference is not liked by such persons.WHY? 

I think it always better to understand and stick to the PRIME reference meanings 
of all Gurbanee Noun words then there is hardly any chance of getting distracted.

This is what I personally feel .

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Prakash ji,
Ok Brahmgyani is another. I can use that.

So give us some examples of usage of 'Sant' in Guru Granth Sahib.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
Pl look this Sabad for the Real Reference of the word SANT as

ਟੋਡੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਇਓ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੁਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੂਖੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਲਾਹਿ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਠਾਹਰ ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਤਉ ਦੁਆਰੀ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਛੋਡਿ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਛੂਟਹ ਹਮ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਸਦ ਬਖਸਿੰਦੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਸੰਤ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਰਿਓ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਇਹ ਬਾਰੀ ॥੨॥੪॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 713 
                    ---------------------------------

Now it is important to understand after which SANT,NANAK DAAS is there?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Well Guru Arjan Dev ji did follow Guru/Sant Ramdas ji. He was his best student even and got Gurgaddi.

Any other references that might highlight what you say more closely?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Well Guru Arjan Dev ji did follow Guru/Sant Ramdas ji. He was his best student even and got Gurgaddi.
> 
> Any other references that might highlight what you say more closely?


 
One more sabad for your reference 
ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰੀ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਡੋਲੈ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੈ ॥੧॥ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਜਾ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਤੇ ॥ ਸੀਤਲ ਸਾਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਤੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਉ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸਗਲ ਦੁਖ ਮਿਟੇ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੇ ਛੁਟੇ ॥੨॥ ਸੰਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਮਿਟੇ ਮੋਹ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਸਾਧ ਰੇਣ ਮਜਨ ਸਭਿ ਧਰਮ ॥ ਸਾਧ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਦਇਆਲ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ॥ ਸਾਧਾ ਮਹਿ ਇਹ ਹਮਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁ ॥੩॥ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਿਧਿ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਧਿਆਵਉ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਤਾ ਬੈਠਣੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥ ਮੋਹਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਇਆ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਇਆ ॥੪॥੨੨॥੯੧॥

In this Sabad the reference for the words SANT and SADH is GuR/SATiGuR.(CREATOR), not any person/persons.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

Now I am ok with someone saying Guru Granth Sahib ji is all you need to attain enlightenment. I think seeing, listening to enlightened beings can also help

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
Once you are enlightened thru SGGS I am sure you would not like to see any one else 
second to this.

Prakash.s,Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> Ok Brahmgyani is another. I can use that.
> 
> So give us some examples of usage of 'Sant' in Guru Granth Sahib.


 

ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ੫ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖਾ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨਾ ॥ ਕਲਿਮਲ ਡਾਰਨ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਧਾਰਨ ਇਹ ਆਸਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਤਰਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪੂਜਾ ਅਰਚਾ ਸੇਵਾ ਬੰਦਨ ਇਹੈ ਟਹਲ ਮੋਹਿ ਕਰਨਾ ॥ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਗਰਭੈ ਪਰਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਸਫਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਪਰਸਉ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਇਹੈ ਧਿਆਨਾ ਧਰਨਾ ॥ ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪਰਿਓ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਸਰਨਾ ॥੨॥੧੬॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 531

Pl observe is the word SANTAN in this Sabad for "enlightened persons"?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



> Once you are enlightened thru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I am sure you would not like to see any one else
> second to this.


Prakash ji, 
This has not been my experience. Before I was enlightened I would listen to spiritual teachers whenever I had time, some of whom I have posted in the last page. They gave a lot of insights into reality that I found really useful back then.

Even now I still enjoy listening to them, because I can meditate more easily in their presence, and I can relate to them on a deep level.



> ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ etc


So the blessing of a Sant is that you recite Hari's name. This is pretty definitive. Sant is a God-oriented individual in whose company we learn to meditate. <- This is entirely consistent with my experience.

Now you could have said that a Sant (man) is One with God and so when he blesses us, God Himself blesses us the ability to ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ. But you don't seem to be saying this.

Now in the second shabad it says Santan, which the dictionary translates as plural of Sant. Is it plural of Sant or like the phrase Hari Jan?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> This has not been my experience. Before I was enlightened I would listen to spiritual teachers whenever I had time, some of whom I have posted in the last page. They gave a lot of insights into reality that I found really useful back then.
> 
> Even now I still enjoy listening to them, because I can meditate more easily in their presence, and I can relate to them on a deep level.
> ...


 

As I understand from your views that for understanding the teachings of GuRu
one is required to listen to the teachings of SANT?SANTS as person /Persons.

I might differ on this as I have yet to come across any person/persons 
who is capable of giving the teachings of TRue GuRu /SatiGuRu-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

I would rather prefer the company of person.persons  like you and others with similar outlook only interested in 
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contemplation.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 15, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

It helps but it's not required.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 22, 2012)

*re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?*

destiny in sikhism is beyond 3 gunas maya, where there is no ego, no time,  no duality, no speeches exist, only listening, and that home is true Such Khand, no male or females exist here.. here we will realise the meaning of ONE ness with the whole creation..we does not make our destiny where there is ego, and duality.. thanks


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## spnadmin (Dec 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I seem to have mistyped a web address and found a Hindu Philosophy website!
> 
> Karma, good deeds going into next lives, Fate all very interesting
> 
> I always thought the Sikh view was to align ones will with the will of Creator, why else would there be terms such as Manmukh and Gurmukh



Just wanted to bump this forward from 4 pages back. I too thought our true destiny was to become Gurmukh (perhaps realize that is within us) with the grace of the Guru.

p/s What was the Hindu Philosophy site you found by accident? Have been looking for a site with some reliable information about karma, reincarnation and other concepts per Hindu philosophy.


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## Ishna (Dec 22, 2012)

Adminji, I think Harry bhaji was calling SPN names.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 22, 2012)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> destiny in sikhism is beyond 3 gunas maya, where there is no ego, no time, no duality, no speeches exist, only listening, and that home is true Such Khand, no male or females exist here.. here we will realise the meaning of ONE ness with the whole creation..we does not make our destiny where there is ego, and duality.. thanks


 
We shouldn't make it sound so confusing and a near impossible task as you have mentioned above!
Although there is nothing incorrect with what you have mentioned, but we have to be able to handle them rather than crossing them off a list one by one.
You see duality and  ego's have to be recognized and handled. You can't just make them vanish. 
LIVING whilst being SUBMERGED in the world maya illusion is what Guru Ji tells us in many shabads.
We can NOT just deny the world and surroundings, but we can 'Try' to strip away our ego and recognize all dualities.

When this starts to happen then comes the ''REALISATION''.
This 'Realisation' is the true destiny, because then there isn't any me or him. It ALL becomes HIM.
We start to see, feel and live by ALWAYS knowing that it is just him and there is no me or you.

Sure, or surroundings help contribute to our weaknesses, But this is what it is all about. God hasn't put us here for fun and surrounded us with 'anti-God' things to see the mess we get in!!
He has put us here amongst everything so that we can eventually realise that it is ALL ONE.

Working towards this 'true realisation' is the goal and destiny in my opinion.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 22, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Just wanted to bump this forward from 4 pages back. I too thought our true destiny was to become Gurmukh (perhaps realize that is within us) with the grace of the Guru.
> 
> p/s What was the Hindu Philosophy site you found by accident? Have been looking for a site with some reliable information about karma, reincarnation and other concepts per Hindu philosophy.



Sorry thats my sarcasm again 

I just feel that it is tempting to look for meaning in reincarnation, food, external facets, personality restrictions, superstitions, et al, and ignore simply living the way we were intented to be. As far as I know Sikhism is the only religion that focuses more on the one life we have on this earth, the consequences of, and the spiritual rewards available, all before we die. 

In my view that is much more satisfying, productive, and wisdom inducing than raising the kundalini to the tenth gate.

 As I am on a re read of Herman Hesse's work, an excellent quote on meditation. 

*What is meditation?...  It is fleeing from the  self, it is a short escape of the agony of being a self, it is a short  numbing of the senses against the pain and the pointlessness of life.   The same escape, the same short numbing is what the driver of an ox-cart  finds in the inn, drinking a few bowls of rice wine or fermented  coconut-milk.”     *

 
  Herman Hesse, Siddartha


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## spnadmin (Dec 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Sorry thats my sarcasm again
> 
> 
> Oh, I heard the sarcasm! But could not resist a little of my own...
> ...



Thanks for thinking of the quote and posting it here. It echos what has been my own nagging suspicion for years.. Fleeing not only from the self, but ironically also fleeing from everyone else and what is one's ethical obligation to self and other. I would not and do not achieve any sense of inner peace from numbing my awareness.  In a fleeting moment, I might just be able to manage one more small thing for one other life as small as my own even if it is nothing more than a smile on someone's sad day. 

Ok, enough of that. I continue my project of trying to find a rocking Hindu site where there is stored reliable and accurate information about Hinduism. Maybe now you can see what I was getting at earlier.:whatzpointkudi:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 22, 2012)

NO COMMENTS NECESSARY..LOL


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