# Radhaswami? What Are They? Are They Sikh?



## Astroboy (Apr 21, 2008)

*Radha swami..???? what are they.. Sikh?* 

The sounds that RS hear in meditation are the sound created by their mind. These are not shabads of any realm. RS devotee sits in a squat way, place their hands on their eyes and ears and try to listen first to the sound of a Ghanta (bell). Before sitting in this Aalti Paalti Aasan (position) they repeat their Varnatmak Naam for sometime. Then they try to listen to these sounds. First of all when you place hands on the your ears, you can hear the sounds of your body. They get excited by this. Then when your mind wants to hear the sound of bell from the right corner of your brain, your mind will create that sound for you. What’s so great about this. This is not the celestial sound that Gurbani is talking about. 

The real celestial sound is that sound that the true Devotee hears after his Dasam Duar opens. This sound is the sound from Sachkhand. It is the sound of mehima or sifat-salaah of Vaheguru going on in Sach Khand. It is bizarre that RS has placed Dasam Duar at the third level. First of all Dasam Duaar cannot be called a region. It is, as the name implies, a doorway from where you can access Sach Khand and hear and feel Sach Khand. How can it be merely third level as RS suggests. 

(phorum - message board)

What are views on the above, kindly share. 
Dhoodh ka dhoodh, Aur Paani Ka Paani bhann jaye ga.


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## Astroboy (Apr 21, 2008)

Other debate and Discussions on RS beliefs and their differences from Sikhism :-

http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/14627-who-are-the-radha-soami-2.html
phorum - message board


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## spnadmin (Apr 21, 2008)

Nam Jap

It is excellent that you started this thread. This is an area of almost complete ignorance for me. All I know is what I read on the Internet. And I can tell when an RS commentary is out of alignment with Sikhi and Gurbani. But that is not enough. To be knowledgeable I need to know more.


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## pk70 (Apr 21, 2008)

*namjapji

In Sikhism there is no living man called Guru. A fabricated story( Historical facts suggest contrary to it)  around Guru Gobind Singh ji's hidden life after 1708  AD  is pretty good reason to believe that there is one's sect,  set for a  financial business.  People can claim what they dream. IN Sikhism there are ten Masters and eternal Guru Granth Sahib Ji ONLY. At the time of 9 th Master, there were people who would call themselves real Gurus,  those shop were closed eventually, new were opened and will keep opening due to financial and political reasons.  As said" caravan goes on and the dogs bark on". Forgive me if any word I have used here and you don't like it. RS should not call them Sikhs because Radha Swami word itself   says clearly who are they!!!!!!!!
*


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## spnadmin (Apr 21, 2008)

pk70

Money has a lot to do with the false baabaa, false guru syndrome. That and a almost psychotic need to control others body, mind and soul. Sikhi is not alone in the emergence of human gurus. Many religions that claim One Transcendent God have people like this. 

I think in the thread though there is a search for the roots of this particular movement for historical reasons. Also understanding of both truth and falsehood is easier to achieve with information about the phenomenon under discovery. Hope I am getting Nam Jap's intent correctly.

Guruji has words to live by on this topoic,

 pauVI ]
pourree ||
Pauree:

Awpy Awip vrqdw Awip qwVI lweIAnu ]
aapae aap varathadhaa aap thaarree laaeean ||
He Himself is all-pervading; He Himself is absorbed in the profound state of Samaadhi.

 Awpy hI aupdysdw gurmuiK pqIAweIAnu ]
aapae hee oupadhaesadhaa guramukh patheeaaeean ||
He Himself instructs; the Gurmukh is satisfied and fulfilled.
 ieik Awpy auJiV pwieAnu ieik BgqI lwieAnu ]
eik aapae oujharr paaeian eik bhagathee laaeian ||
Some, He causes to wander in the wilderness, while others are committed to His devotional worship.

ijsu Awip buJwey so buJsI Awpy nwie lweIAnu ]
jis aap bujhaaeae so bujhasee aapae naae laaeean ||
He alone understands, whom the Lord causes to understand; He Himself attaches mortals to His Name.

nwnk nwmu iDAweIAY scI vifAweI ]21]1] suDu ] naanak naam dhhiaaeeai sachee vaddiaaee ||21||1|| sudhh ||
O Nanak, meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, true greatness is obtained. ||21||1|| Sudh||

More than He and Himself, and more than meditation on His Name is un-necessary. Sikhs do not need another Guru.


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## pk70 (Apr 21, 2008)

aad0002 Ji

You are absolutely right, I commented on the false fort they -RS- built over years. All their story shows not only it is  untrue one but also the intent behind that. As you have cleared  through Guru Vaak, it will continue and it is HIS ordinance, good or bad. I do not question namjap ji's intent at all.
 I  ignored RS since I learned what they cooked up. I myself expect to learn more about the sect through this thread. Thanks for  making all aware of this.


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## Astroboy (Apr 22, 2008)

*March 22, 2006*

*More skepticism about Sant Mat*

 	 	 		 			Periodically I get email messages from dissatisfied initiates of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. They’ve come to regard the RSSB (or Sant Mat) philosophy with considerable skepticism. 
  Because I believe in the potential of a genuine spiritual science, which requires that the results of spiritual “experiments” be openly discussed, I’m pleased to share these messages when the author gives me permission. Bob did, so you’ll find his story below. It’s well written and provocative. 
  I’m still a vegetarian and feel that I always will be. The idea of eating animal flesh after thirty-seven years of meatlessness turns my stomach. But Bob’s reentry into meat-eating was a positive experience for him. _Vive le difference_. 
  He makes some good points about the relative karmic nastiness of liquor, steak, and doughnuts, arguing that doughnuts take the cake (so to speak). Here’s what Bob had to say:
---------------------------
I was initiated by Charan Singh back in 1970. Went to the Dera in 1974 and 1984. Stuck to the diet and went to many satsangs until shortly after he died in 1990. Gurinder Singh turned me off and I began to see RSSB for what it really is...a cult/religion that expects blind faith and delivers nothing in return except a false sense of security that one has when they believe by some stroke of unfathomable Grace that they, out of billions of people, have somehow found the one true path to ultimate spiritual bliss and liberation under the protective wing of an almighty Master...not. It's like Jesus with vegetables, meditation, and banwar gupha thrown in. 

I never was much of a meditator. Oh, there were periods where I managed to crank out 2.5 hr. sessions (I went four hours once), but usually I lasted less than an hour, and much of that time was spent nodding off. I felt a little guilty about not putting in my time and somewhat inferior to all the highly evolved satsangis who I imagined were hearing peals of celestial thunder and learning many "inner" secrets which, of course, were not to be shared with anyone. 
  I would look around the room wondering who was experiencing inner regions. If someone seemed particularly focused and calm, or to have some intangible quality (imagined or real), I suspected they were among the chosen ones. But not to worry, Master will reveal the inner splendor when by his grace your time has come. In the meantime you just have more karma to work out. He knows best. You may be almost finished boring through the darkness of the mountain to the sudden burst of light on the other side. By the time Charan died, I wasn't meditating at all.

The alarms went off one day in '81 when we were invited to a beautiful beach by some acquaintances. They knew we were vegetarians and went to the trouble to make us avocado sandwiches instead of the meat sandwiches they were having. Unfortunately they used regular mayonnaise and we had to refuse them, spending the day crunching carrots. This made me very uncomfortable, refusing their hospitality to avoid maybe 1/20 of an unfertilized egg. 
  It seemed highly irrational to me unless I was truly allergic to eggs. Was I really going to be condemned to rebirth if I ate a bit of this offending substance? Would my vibration become co{censored}ned in such a way that meditation was going to become even more difficult? I never did really get the egg thing, but I still figured Master knew best....eating unfertilized eggs could lead to eating fertilized eggs. Sort of like marijuana leading to heroin use. And the rennet thing. Gurinder has even ruled that out now. Reminds me of the Jains who tiptoe around insects and wear masks to avoid breathing and killing microbes.

Looking back on all this, I realize I was very naive to buy into Sant Mat, but it wasn't entirely a waste of time. The moral structure of the path did help me to live a pretty clean, honest life which kept me out of many of the troubles others have. But at the same time I avoided a lot of opportunities (too worldly) that could have enriched my life. It gave me an excuse to be a slacker as far as being ambitious and reaching my potential in certain ways.

These days, I enjoy reading non-dual, advaita vedanta, zen, ch'an, taoist philosophy. I am sort of nowhere in particular as far as spirituality is concerned which I think is a step in the right direction on the path of no path.

It was interesting going back to eating meat. About eight/nine years ago the heavy grain/starch vegetarian diet was causing me to show some pre-diabetic tendencies. I was putting on weight and getting some arthritis. I read a couple of books that pretty much convinced me I was on the wrong diet for my physiological type. My first non-veg meal in 28 years was salmon cooked by my wife, also vegetarian, who by this time was ready for a change. No problem. 
  It felt weird to find myself eating meat after so many years, but physically, no problem. I gradually introduced more meat into my diet over a period of several weeks. My first red meat, easily digested, made me feel satisfied, strong, calm, centered, and I was under the impression that so-called "rajasic " food was supposed to agitate me. On the new diet my cholesterol/triglyceride profile improved, I lost 20 lbs., blood sugar swings stabilized and the arthritis went away just by cutting back on grains and replacing them with animal protein. 

I am among the majority of humans who do best with some kind of meat in the diet. Maybe a veg diet is adequate if you are sedentary with your hair tied to a bar over your head so that you don't nod off while doing bhajan for seventeen years in a back room. But I wasn't up to that kind of asceticism. I was athletic, a runner, and the body requires plenty of high quality protein to recover from hard workouts. You don't get that from tofu and rice. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have performed better had I been eating steak and rice. 

There is suffering and cruelty in the commercial meat industry that is improving but will always be there. But people forget that the cows are going to die one way or another anyway and it ain't gonna be fun for them. Would their fate be better in nature with wolves gnawing on their entrails while still conscious? Or starving through a hard winter or drought? Life feeds on life and since that's the way things are set up, I doubt it's a sin to participate in an honest way. 
  I've seen cattle raised where I used to live. They hang out in green pastures munching grass all day with their buddies. They mate and live a pretty decent cow's life. If they're sick or injured, they get treated or quickly put down. One day the truck comes to take them to the feedlot where they get to stuff themselves with grain. Finally, they are herded into the slaughterhouse for what is usually a quick kill. Sometimes something goes wrong and an animal has a rough time of it and somebody gets a tough steak. Generally, it's not so bad, relatively speaking, in this dog eat dog world. 

About the Sant Mat prohibition against intoxicants: Why does a satsangi have to vow to never allow wine to pass his/her lips as if we all were going to become alcoholics as a result and do foolish stuff which will increase the karmic load? Come on. We're adults here. How about a vow to never get mad, to never cuss, to never eat too many doughnuts?
  A gut load of doughnuts will do more to ruin your meditation than a piece of steak any day. And if you keep eating doughnuts, eventually you will get fat with diabetes and heart disease which will make it hard to meditate. Then your health becomes a financial burden on the family. Finally you have a heart attack while driving and mangle some people who sue you and wipe out your family's financial security. All this because of doughnuts. I say doughnuts are worse than booze. There are more fat, sick people than there are alcoholics.
  If they were really wise, the masters would ban doughnuts instead of liquor or at least add them to the list. 

Anyway, enough said. 
Bob

Church of the Churchless: More skepticism about Sant Mat


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## Astroboy (Apr 22, 2008)

*July 06, 2007*

*Religions aren’t alike. I think I know why.*

It's (churchless) confession time. I'm getting down on my bloggish knees and admitting to a _mea culpa._ Not a very juicy one, though. It's philosophical rather than salacious. 
For a long time I've been an advocate of the notion that under their dogmatic skins religions share a common skeleton. Aldous Huxley called this the *Perennial Philosophy* and wrote a book by that name. 
But now I've come to agree with Stephen Prothero, chair of Boston University's Department of Religion, who said in Newsweek recently that the proposition "*The Major Religions are Essentially Alike*" is _false. _
Religious people do agree that there is something wrong with this world. But they disagree as soon as they start to diagnose the problem, and diverge even more when it comes to prescriptions for the cure. Christians see sin as the human problem and salvation from sin as the religious goal. Buddhists see suffering (which, in this tradition, is not ennobling) as the problem and liberation from suffering (nirvana) as the goal. If practitioners of the world's religions are all climbing a mountain, then they are ascending very different peaks and using very different tools. 
On the other hand, I've quoted this passage by Huxley many times. It used to make sense to me. Now it doesn't. 
The metaphysic that recognizes a divine Reality substantial to the world of things and lives and minds; the psychology that finds in the soul something similar to, or even identical with, divine Reality; the ethic that places man's final end in the knowledge of the immanent and transcendent Ground of all being – the thing is immemorial and universal. 
Well, those words sound warm and fuzzy. I can almost picture the founders of the world religions sitting around a campfire and singing _Kum-Bai-Ya._ 
But the reality is that once you get beyond the broadest generalizations of which Huxley speaks – there's something more than physical reality, and we can know it – religious beliefs have precious little in common. Prothero urges us to recognize this, rather than paper over the differences. 
Coming at the problem of religion from the angle of difference rather than similarity is scary. But the world is what it is. And both tolerance and respect are empty virtues until we actually understand whatever it is we are supposed to be tolerating or respecting. 
I have no problem respecting someone's belief, so long as they admit that this is all it is: a _belief_, not truth. Where I went wrong in my Perennial Philosophy phase was not recognizing this: accepting that some people have been able to actually know the truth about divine reality and go beyond belief is itself a belief. 
Huxley simply takes this as a given. He says that most people who spout off about spirituality and religion are merely echoing what others have written (who in turn probably have done the same thing). Yet he claims that there have been _first hand_ exponents of the Perennial Philosophy who have been given the name of saint, prophet, sage, or enlightened one. 
That's true enough – that they've been given those names. But what proof is there that these supposed first-handers aren't also passing on secondhand inspiration that may never have been grounded in any direct perception of a higher reality? 
A present day guru, Gurinder Singh, is fond of saying, "How do you know I'm not a fraud? How do you know I just don't have the gift of gab?" 
Indeed. How? There's no answer to that question, not in any scientifically demonstrable sense at least. If there was any solid proof that one religion knew the really real truth about divine reality, it would have risen to the top of the religious pyramid – just as scientific theories do. 
Instead, what we have, after 10,000 years or more of intense human striving to understand what, if anything, lies beyond the physical, is a confusing mess of conflicting religious claims. 
So like I said in my previous post, *science turns out to be more spiritual than religion*. Science continually converges on a consensus about the nature of reality, while religion never does. 
Why is this? The two most likely possibilities are (1) there's no metaphysical reality to be discovered, or (2) there is indeed a non-material side to existence, but it is absolutely ineffable – incapable of being described. 
Since I want to live on after I die, naturally I hope the latter is true. But I'd put my bet on (1) as being more likely. Unfortunately, there's no way to win that bet and get a payoff. If I'm right, I won't be around to know it.

(Church of the Churchless:)


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## Astroboy (Apr 22, 2008)

*Insight on the Radha Soami faith *​*Sunday 27th of November 2005 *
*Editorial *​
(KP) - 







Radha Soami Mat Darshan

When people of India were resting the sleep of illiteracy and diffidence, Guru Nanak saved these people from the fire of ritualistic beliefs and joined them in the remembrance of One God.  Through his Ten Incarnations, Guru Nanak blessed the coward and the meek with kingdoms.  With the Tenth incarnation, Guru Nanak carried out the most sensational marvel of gracing the disregarded and meager people by embracing and manifesting them as the "Panth Khalsa" and these people were also given the title of "Panj Pyare".  Guru Sahib announced:

ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੋ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਖ਼ਾਸ ॥
 Khalsa maero roop hai khas ||
Khalsa is my very own personal self.

ਖ਼ਾਲਸੇ ਮਹਿ ਹੌ ਕਰੌ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥
 Khalsae mehi ha kara nivas ||
Within the Khalsa, my soul dwells.

From the moment Guru Nanak Dev Ji started to alter the "Jagat Jalanda" (burning world) by preaching "Sach Ki Bela" (Word of Truth), from that time the Brahmanvadi nation of falsehood started foreseeing its eradication.  The drama of these people of pretending to be the living image of God was getting revealed because of Guru Nanak's teachings.  Guru Nanak preached:

ਤਿਨ੍* ਸੰਗਿ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਚਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੁਆਉ ॥2॥
thinu sung sung n keechee naanuk jinaa aapunaa suaao 
Do not associate with those, O Nanak, who look out only for their own interests. ||2||

Even though the Sikh religion has always been against the ritualistic belief of worshiping idols and graves, some so-called 'Sikhs' still indulge in the above mentioned religious misconduct.

Even today, some Sikhs are going astray from the teachings of the "Shabad Guru" and becoming victims of the false practice of idol and human worship.  It is a big grief that the Sikhs who once lived on the edge of the sword and thanked the Almighty God even after having their bodies chopped into little pieces, had their whole families martyred, faced death bravely while being tied to the Catherine wheels, the same Sikh nation is now being misled by teachings of these 'Gurus'.

Where some people are plotting themselves as the incarnation of the Gurus for their personal gains, many of our Sikh brothers and sisters are also becoming prey because of their own shortcomings.  What is miserable is that many of our Sikh brothers are also adopting these teachings and beliefs which the Sikh Gurus openly rejected.

With the message of - "ਬਿਨ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨ ਕਿਰਤਮ ਮਾਨੋ ॥" (Do not accept anyone else except God as the Creator of the Universe) the Gurus have done the great deed of joining the Sikhs to One Creator God.  But still many immoral 'ways of life' are locking people in the mesh of the perplexity.  The Radha Soami dogma is one such prominently known way of life.  The Sikh Gurus have conferred the gift of Gur Mantar and Mool Mantar to their Sikhs and have clearly ruled the following command:

ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ ॥
aap jupuhu avureh naam jupaavuhu 
Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it.

But yet many so-called 'Sikhs' can be seen begging for the 'Gupt-Mantar' at the door of Human 'Gurus'. The Radha Soami faith was started in the city of Agra by a man named Shiv Dayal, who was the husband of a woman named Radha.  During the year 1891, Jaimal Singh, a member of a Sikh regiment came in contact of Shiv Dayal and started the shrine of the Radha Soami faith at Beas.  At present there are many branches of this faith that are in opposition to each other.  These branches of the Radha Soami faith include their centers at Allahabad, Agra, Beas, Saidpur (Dist. Amritsar Sahib).  Missionary work of this belief was first started at Saidpur by a person named Baba Teja Singh.  Another person named 'Baba Rasila Ram' is the present leader of this cult. 














*Soami Shiv Diyal, founder of the Radha Soami faith.  This person is falsely given the last name 'Singh' many times to associate him with the Sikh religion.**Teja Singh, founder of the Radha Soami 'dera' at Saidpur.  Former Punjab CM Parkash Badal visits this dera numerious times in a year, but especially before the elections.**Rasila Ram, a non-Sikh from Jammu who merely carries the Sikh idenity is the current leader of the 'dera' at Saidpur.*

In their attempt to copy the Sikh history, these people have published the biography of Baba Teja Singh under the title of 'Janam Sakhi'.  While many doctrines enlisted in this book are against the principals of Gurmat, the author has also published many statements in favor of the Radha Soami faith which are comparable to a Punjabi idiom that translates in English: "To throw an axe at your own foot".  This faith promotes the Jain belief of adhering to total peace; but the Sikh Gurus rejected such tenets because they were not in line with their proposed life full of morale and esteem.  About the Jain belief, Guru Nanak Dev Ji has stated that the Jain followers take precautions under the false notion of not wanting to kill any living beings such as drinking water without purification in order to not kill the bacteria.  About their practices Guru Sahib has stated:

ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇ ਪੀਅਹਿ ਮਲਵਾਣੀ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਖਾਹੀ ॥
sir khohaae peeahi muluvaanee joothaa mung mung khaahee 
They pluck the hair out of their heads, and drink in filthy water; they beg endlessly and eat the garbage which others have thrown away.

ਫੋਲਿ ਫਦੀਹਤਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲੈਨਿ ਭੜਾਸਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਗਾਹੀ ॥
fol fudheehath muhi lain bhurraasaa paanee dhaekh sugaahee 
They spread manure, they suck in rotting smells, and they are afraid of clean water.

The Janam Sakhi published by the Radha Soami faith also favors another belief of the Jainism which Guru Sahib opposed.  The Janis spread excreta in fear of killing a living being, and the Radha Soamis go through the deed of smelling manure to identify their Guru.

On page 62 of the Janam Sakhi published by 'Baba Teja Singh Radha Soami Trust', meanings of Gurbani are presented in a wrongful manner to prtray falseness.  The page states that 'Hazoor Satguru' Teja Singh preached to Sangat that one can identify a person living in accordance with Gurbani if he eats and sleeps less, but and the biggest sign comes from that a person's excreta, instead of having a fecal odor woul have a fragrance!  For the stool and urine to be free of odor is the biggest sign of an enlightened person.  

This teaching is further confirmed in Teja Singh's 'Janam Sakhi' through this passage: "… after that Bhagat Chanan Singh and Gyanni Ji secretly smelled Baba Teja Singh Ji's excreta (page 61-62).  The bodily waste of Baba Teja Singh Ji had fragrance instead of odor and they accepted Baba Teja Singh as Puran Guru."

This story plotted by the missionaries of the Radha Soami faith is worth nothing more than laughter.  It is distressing to see Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's "Nirmal Panth" following the fake human gurus.  Such Sikhs who merely carry the image of the Sikh identity and use Singhs and Kaurs as their last name and turn their backs on Guru Sahib by joining faiths as the Radha Soami, are not worthy of being labeled as Sikhs of the Gurus.  They are forgetting that Guru Sahib taught:

ਜਾਗਿਤ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ 
jaagith joth japai nis baasur eaek binaa man naik n aanai ||
He the Khalsa meditates on the Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord from the mind.

ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ 
pooran praem pratheeth sajai brath gor marrhee matt bhool n maanai ||
He decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believed not in fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake.

Editors can be reached at editors@panthic.org


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## Astroboy (Apr 22, 2008)

*The Main Line of Masters of Sant Mat in the Kali Yuga*


Master
Lifetime Age at Start of Mission 
Age at Physical Death 
Location of Principal Ashram 
Social Religion of Birth 

1 Kabir Sahib 1398-1518 ? 120 Kashi (Benares) Muslim 
2 Guru Nanak 1469-1539 ? 70 Kartarpur, Punjab Hindu
3 Guru Angad 1504-1552 34 48 Khadur, Punjab Hindu 
4 Guru Amardas 1479-1574 83 95 Goindwal, Punjab Hindu 
5 Guru Ramdas 1534-1581 40 47 Amritsar Hindu/Sikh 
6 Guru Arjan 1563-1606 18 43 Amritsar Hindu/Sikh 
7 Guru Har Gobind 1595-1644 11 49 Sri Hargobindpur, Punjab Hindu/Sikh 
8 Guru Hari Rai 1630-1661 14 31 Sri Hargobindpur, Punjab Hindu/Sikh 
9 Guru Hari Krishan 1656-1664 5 8 Delhi Hindu/Sikh 
10 Guru Teg Bahadur 1621-1675 43 54 Patna, Bihar Hindu/Sikh 
11 Guru Gobind Singh 1666-1708 9 42 Anandpur Hindu/Sikh 
12 Sant Ratnagar Rao unknown ? ? Poona Hindu 
13 Tulsi Sahib 1763-1843 ? 80 Hathras, U.P. Hindu 
14 Swami Ji Maharaj 1818-1878 25 60 Agra Hindu 
15 Baba Jaimal Singh 1838-1903 40 65 Beas, Punjab Sikh 
16 Baba Sawan Singh 1858-1948 45 90 Beas, Punjab Sikh 
17 Sant Kirpal Singh 1894-1974 54 80 Delhi Sikh 
18 Sant Ajaib Singh 1926-199748 70 Village 16PS, Rajasthan Sikh

A Brief Life Sketch of Sant Ajaib Singh Ji


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## spnadmin (Apr 22, 2008)

I guess my next two questions are these.

Why does the line of RS masters include the 10 Sikh Gurus? This would be according to whom? You probably left off the reference.

and 

What is the attraction of ordinary people to the RS movement? Is it purely religious? Or are there cultural/economic/political variables at work?

Thank you.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 22, 2008)

namjap said:


> *Radha swami..???? what are they.. Sikh?*
> 
> The sounds that RS hear in meditation are the sound created by their mind. These are not shabads of any realm. RS devotee sits in a squat way, place their hands on their eyes and ears and try to listen first to the sound of a Ghanta (bell). Before sitting in this Aalti Paalti Aasan (position) they repeat their Varnatmak Naam for sometime. Then they try to listen to these sounds. First of all when you place hands on the your ears, you can hear the sounds of your body. They get excited by this. Then when your mind wants to hear the sound of bell from the right corner of your brain, your mind will create that sound for you. What’s so great about this. This is not the celestial sound that Gurbani is talking about.
> 
> ...



They are very cult like inthe way they are run. They have very strong ties to Vaisnavism and also have some strong ritualism. Their leader is called Maharaj.


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## pk70 (Apr 22, 2008)

*namjap ji

Thanks for putting all that information about RS on this site, it reveals games of cults played time to time and how ignorant become part of the crowd being not aware  of financial goals. I got a inspiration from Seventh Master to ignore whatever is against Guru Nanak Panth. He ignored his own son for misquoting Gurbani, I just ignore any one if I smell cult, sect. As we are aware of Guru Sahib times, people did this kind of things openly by affiliating with the people in political power. After having said that, I actually like the thread more as more information is coming out about them. Most of the even followers dont know that. One of them whom I ignored a lot kept saying for a while that without experience I should not have used critical language about him and his RS affiliation. Over time, he went away from me  I just refused to acknowledge him.
I hope to hear more internal structure of them and all the political backing they have. There must be. There are things they do to impress the general public, like opening up hospitals, helping poor etc. In this context, if we look at the earnings of all Gurdawaras, it is huge; however, Akali Dal and SGPC spend very little to counter  these cults and to help the needy people who under frustration knock at the doors of these cults. Have a look at Malwa belt in Punjab. Once Nirankaris were very powerful, now RS and Ram Raheem cult have very sound groundings in Punjab to keep them running. Literally Sikh word is totally abused by these guys. SGPC has become another on looker!
*


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## Astroboy (Apr 23, 2008)

PK70 Ji,

I have a family friend who stays in KL. He, as a businessman, set up business in Bangkok and some turbanned Radha Soamis (previously Sikhs) approached him to 'invest' in residential properties in the grounds of the New RS temple. An understanding was formulated but what he wasn't told was that after 10 years his investment would be converted to a donation to the RS fund. 

He fought furiously to get back all his money which he only got back after he threatened to expose them big scale. And the amount involved for each unit was about 8 million Bahts.

See this article about how the cult guru's live off the contributions of their devotees:-

(Source: exsat : ExSatsangi Support Group)

The EXSAT group began as a "support  group" for some people who finally realized they had made a mistake. A gigantic  mistake!! Somehow they had allowed themselves to trust and believe in a  "Spiritual Master", who then turned out NOT to be "god in human form" but who  was a person merely acting like a "Master" -- someone like, say, a Thakar Singh,  or a Charan, or a Rajinder, or a Kirpal, a Gurinder, a Sawan, a Darshan, an  Ajaib, a Jagat -- or any of the other so-called "Sant Mat" gurus, who pretended  to be (or now pretends to be) merged into the highest consciousness in the  universe. There are more than 100 of these predators now claiming to be "the  Master" and leading their own dedicated "sangat" of followers down the garden  path. 

What if I am wrong? 

What if the guru is real and I am now  making the biggest mistake of my life? 

Fear and confusion can occur when  one dares to consider that one's guru may be a central figure in a completely  fraudulent enterprise. But what about all those "kind hearted souls" with  shining faces, near the "Master's" inner circle with their wonderful stories of  miracles and secret experiences they have had with the "Master"? 

It is  quite sad when you find out that they are part of the scam. Most of them knew  the "Master" was not really "god" but they choose to keep this from you. By  encouraging you to have devotion to the "Master" they themselves share a part in  a wonderful god-story. They then are able to receive reverential respect by the  unsuspecting, trusting seekers. 

This group, although quiet for long  periods of time, can suddenly spring back to life when a new "exer" arrives. If  you have questions, don't be afraid to ask. 

If you are at a point where  you have begun questioning the truth of Sant Mat, perhaps it is time to follow  further your own deepest and most personal search for truth. If so, this group  can be a gold mine of information. 

Good Luck!

*Read the next post, it's an eye-opener.*


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## Astroboy (Apr 23, 2008)

Here's the link (eye-opener) :-

GURINDER UPDATE - MAY 2007


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2008)

Jios

I would like to know more about what happens to the elderly who go to nursing homes run by baabaas. Do they turn over their pensions? Next find themselves trapped? I read about these nursing homes and wonder how this is regulated.


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## pk70 (Apr 23, 2008)

What if I am wrong? 
Namjap wrote on rs
What if the guru is real and I am now making the biggest mistake of my life? 

Fear and confusion can occur when one dares to consider that one's guru may be a central figure in a completely fraudulent enterprise. But what about all those "kind hearted souls" with shining faces, near the "Master's" inner circle with their wonderful stories of miracles and secret experiences they have had with the "Master"? 

It is quite sad when you find out that they are part of the scam. Most of them knew the "Master" was not really "god" but they choose to keep this from you. By encouraging you to have devotion to the "Master" they themselves share a part in a wonderful god-story. They then are able to receive reverential respect by the unsuspecting, trusting seekers.

* I cannot agree with you more than on this. Weak minds become fragile, predators jump on them, a few realize after paying dearly. *
*I am impressed since these entire articles shed light on such financial groups under the name of spirituality*. *That Gurinder thing is really an eye opening, thanks putting up here.*



  Quote from aad0002”Would like to know more about what happens to the elderly who go to nursing homes run by baabaas. Do they turn over their pensions? Next find themselves trapped? I read about these nursing homes and wonder how this is regulated.

*I also love to know more about it if some one can write detail of it. Here in **America** ..amm  may be in Uk, Doctors would target old people to inherit their money and kill them. *


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## Astroboy (Apr 24, 2008)

ਆਸਾ ॥ 
आसा ॥ 
Āsā. 
Aasaa: 

ਗਜ ਸਾਢੇ ਤੈ ਤੈ ਧੋਤੀਆ ਤਿਹਰੇ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਤਗ ॥ 
गज साढे तै तै धोतीआ तिहरे पाइनि तग ॥ 
Gaj sādẖė ṯai ṯai ḏẖoṯī&shy;ā ṯihrė pā&shy;in ṯag. 
They wear loin cloths, three and a half yards long, and triple-wound sacred threads. 

ਗਲੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਜਪਮਾਲੀਆ ਲੋਟੇ ਹਥਿ ਨਿਬਗ ॥ 
गली जिन्हा जपमालीआ लोटे हथि निबग ॥ 
Galī jinĥā japmālī&shy;ā lotė hath nibag. 
They have rosaries around their necks, and they carry glittering jugs in their hands. 

ਓਇ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਾਨਾਰਸਿ ਕੇ ਠਗ ॥੧॥ 
ओइ हरि के संत न आखीअहि बानारसि के ठग ॥१॥ 
O&shy;ė har kė sanṯ na ākẖī&shy;ahi bānāras kė ṯẖag. ||1|| 
They are not called Saints of the Lord - they are thugs of Benares. ||1|| 

ਐਸੇ ਸੰਤ ਨ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਭਾਵਹਿ ॥ 
ऐसे संत न मो कउ भावहि ॥ 
Aisė sanṯ na mo ka&shy;o bẖāveh. 
Such 'saints' are not pleasing to me; 

ਡਾਲਾ ਸਿਉ ਪੇਡਾ ਗਟਕਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
डाला सिउ पेडा गटकावहि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Dālā si&shy;o pėdā gatkāvahi. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
they eat the trees along with the branches. ||1||Pause|| 

ਬਾਸਨ ਮਾਂਜਿ ਚਰਾਵਹਿ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਾਠੀ ਧੋਇ ਜਲਾਵਹਿ ॥ 
बासन मांजि चरावहि ऊपरि काठी धोइ जलावहि ॥ 
Bāsan māŉj cẖarāveh ūpar kāṯẖī ḏẖo&shy;ė jalāveh. 
They wash their pots and pans before putting them on the stove, and they wash the wood before lighting it. 

ਬਸੁਧਾ ਖੋਦਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦੁਇ ਚੂਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਵਹਿ ॥੨॥ 
बसुधा खोदि करहि दुइ चूल्हे सारे माणस खावहि ॥२॥ 
Basuḏẖā kẖoḏ karahi ḏu&shy;ė cẖūlĥė sārė māṇas kẖāveh. ||2|| 
They dig up the earth and make two fireplaces, but they eat the whole person! ||2|| 

ਓਇ ਪਾਪੀ ਸਦਾ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਅਪਰਸ ਕਹਾਵਹਿ ॥ 
ओइ पापी सदा फिरहि अपराधी मुखहु अपरस कहावहि ॥ 
O&shy;ė pāpī saḏā fireh aprāḏẖī mukẖahu apras kahāveh. 
Those sinners continually wander in evil deeds, while they call themselves touch-nothing saints. 

ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੀ ਸਗਲ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਡੁਬਾਵਹਿ ॥੩॥ 
सदा सदा फिरहि अभिमानी सगल कुट्मब डुबावहि ॥३॥ 
Saḏā saḏā fireh abẖimānī sagal kutamb dubāveh. ||3|| 
They wander around forever and ever in their self-conceit, and all their families are drowned. ||3|| 

ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗਾ ਤੈਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ 
जितु को लाइआ तित ही लागा तैसे करम कमावै ॥ 
Jiṯ ko lā&shy;i&shy;ā ṯiṯ hī lāgā ṯaisė karam kamāvai. 
He is attached to that, to which the Lord has attached him, and he acts accordingly. 

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥੪॥੨॥ 
कहु कबीर जिसु सतिगुरु भेटै पुनरपि जनमि न आवै ॥४॥२॥ 
Kaho Kabīr jis saṯgur bẖėtai punrap janam na āvai. ||4||2|| 
Says Kabeer, one who meets the True Guru, is not reincarnated again. ||4||2||


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## Randip Singh (Nov 12, 2008)

namjap said:


> *Radha swami..???? what are they.. Sikh?*
> 
> The sounds that RS hear in meditation are the sound created by their mind. These are not shabads of any realm. RS devotee sits in a squat way, place their hands on their eyes and ears and try to listen first to the sound of a Ghanta (bell). Before sitting in this Aalti Paalti Aasan (position) they repeat their Varnatmak Naam for sometime. Then they try to listen to these sounds. First of all when you place hands on the your ears, you can hear the sounds of your body. They get excited by this. Then when your mind wants to hear the sound of bell from the right corner of your brain, your mind will create that sound for you. What’s so great about this. This is not the celestial sound that Gurbani is talking about.
> 
> ...


 
They are in effect a Hindu Vashnavite Group that belive in some aspects of Sikhism. They attract a lot of people because they says its OK to cut your hair.

I think on the hair aspect Sikhi needs to be pragmatic and make a statement, we will acknowledge you as a Sehajdhari/Mona Sikh provided you comply with rule X, Y, Z!


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## dalbirk (Nov 12, 2008)

The founder of Radha Soami Dera was known by the name of Shiv Dayal was a Khatri from Agra . He used to hold a holy congregation there . His followers , addressed him as Swami . His wife's name was 'Radha' . The successors of Shri Shiv Dayal started a 'Radha Soami ' cult .
                   The cult promotes living Guru culture , imaginary exercise of mind & Shabad , tri point confluence , inactive state of mind & listening of cosmic sound by pulling up the mind to the tenth house through exercise like Yogis , & reaching the concieved abode of Radha Soami . Pre-eaten/tasted food of their living guru which is called 'Parsadi' is considered holy & an act of devotion when eaten . They don't consume meat & wine but never discourage their followers from smoking ciggerates & tobacco in any other form , though these r worst type of intoxicants . If they do this , they may lose a large segment of Hindu followers .
                'Sar Bachan ' is a famous book of this cult . The gurudom & worship of living guru has resulted in many seats of this cult over last hundred years . One centre is in Agra while the second centre is in Beas . Splinter groups r like one in Tarn taran , another in Dinod , Bhiwani , Haryana . One more is Ruhani Kirpal Mission , started by followers of Kirpal Singh , a successor to the gaddi after Babu Sawan Singh . Rest later . See this link 

Radhasoami, Beas Secret History, radhasoami, shabd

Regards,


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## Randip Singh (Nov 12, 2008)

dalbirk said:


> They don't consume meat & wine but never discourage their followers from smoking ciggerates & tobacco in any other form , though these r worst type of intoxicants . ,


 
Hmmm! Smoke Cigarettes hey!


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## dalbirk (Nov 14, 2008)

Baba Jaimal Singh came in contact with Soami Shiv Dayal while still serving in a Sikh Battalion of the Indian Army . He later became the founder guru of the Beas seat . The


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## pk70 (Nov 14, 2008)

*dalbirk Ji
*
*Good Job. A kind of History of this cult is posted here:yes: I dont care if any one makes a cult to get money by making people fool because people have sources to get rid of illusions from mind and stay away from thugs;  the thing that bothers me is our Sikh leaders bowing all the time to these cults and the habit of members of the cults to quote Gurbani in distorted manner*.


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## spnadmin (Nov 14, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *dalbirk Ji
> *
> *Good Job. A kind of History of this cult is posted here:yes: I dont care if any one makes a cult to get money by making people fool because people have sources to get rid of illusions from mind and stay away from thugs;  the thing that bothers me is our Sikh leaders bowing all the time to these cults and the habit of members of the cults to quote Gurbani in distorted manner*.



"Tis very true -- there are newspaper pics to prove it.


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## dalbirk (Nov 15, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *dalbirk Ji*
> 
> *Good Job. A kind of History of this cult is posted here:yes: I dont care if any one makes a cult to get money by making people fool because people have sources to get rid of illusions from mind and stay away from thugs; the thing that bothers me is our Sikh leaders bowing all the time to these cults and the habit of members of the cults to quote Gurbani in distorted manner*.


 Thanks pk ji for ur encouraging words . Actually these Deras r mere mercenaries running with the patronage of political parties who use them for delivering the bulk votes . They have a set pattern of influencing their target audience . Agents in form of ordinary villagers r employed on monthly salary to recruit more & more followers . Target incentives r given in form of cash & even gold coins in some cases ( recently by one Dera ) for anybody performing beyond regular targets . Often these r village ladies or well connected persons who do the job .

See the following link for the modus operandi of these Deras :

SikhNet Discussion Forum &bull; View topic - Radha Soami land grab


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## pk70 (Nov 15, 2008)

*Dalbirk Ji,
Last year I went to Punjab and visited a lot of cities with Historical Gurdawaras, in every  city, there was well built but alike complex of RS. I asked one person working in Chamkaur Sahib Gurdawara Sahib about these RS, he smiled and said" When our own protectors are sold, what can you aspect Sardar Ji? The people have now started saying that these guys are opening Hospitals, helping a lot of people, how much SGPC has done in all these years. All Guru money is spent as they wish not as Guru Ji wants..they will go to hell for sure.." 
Besides that, voting power, comes into force. Sikhism is under attack by these Dearas more than any other one. I feel only youth may change it if it takes over power from this enemy in disguise who controls Gurdawaras and power in Punhjab.*


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## spnadmin (Nov 15, 2008)

pk70 ji

I have read about the hospitals and other services, including nursing homes and shelters for the elderly. My one question is this: Are they taking pensions away from the elderly and lining their own pockets? RS seems to have a lot of money for hospitals, but also to fund political cells and uprisings.


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## pk70 (Nov 15, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> I have read about the hospitals and other services, including nursing homes and shelters for the elderly. My one question is this: Are they taking pensions away from the elderly and lining their own pockets? RS seems to have a lot of money for hospitals, but also to fund political cells and uprisings.




*Aad Ji,

Answer to your question may lead to their bait to lure people to their Deras.
I think Dalbirk Ji or kds1980 ji can post any information if they have, I really don't know any thing in detail:2:
*


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## kds1980 (Nov 15, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> I have read about the hospitals and other services, including nursing homes and shelters for the elderly. My one question is this: Are they taking pensions away from the elderly and lining their own pockets? RS seems to have a lot of money for hospitals, but also to fund political cells and uprisings.



In my Area Lots and lots of shops owners have photo's of Radhaswami guru's.So it seems
That this movement is very popular among business class.But surprisingly I have never seen any poor person with radhaswami locket.So I really doubt,because where there is money there are corrupt people

The plus point of sikhi of RS is that these followers Which are hindu's also have respect for guru nanak and put his photo.They also listen to Kirtan original one which is sung by sikh raagi's.Not like Nirankari's who just break gurbani and make fake kirtan

As far politics is concerned I doubt that Rs are involved with any political Organisation
becuase I never heard Radhaswamis, having conflict like Dera sacha sauda baba


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## spnadmin (Nov 15, 2008)

kdsji

So that sounds a little better. Thank you.


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