# Does Sikhism Embrace Mysticism?



## Harry Haller (Nov 24, 2011)

Gurfatehji

I quite like the idea that our Gurus left us all their knowledge and experience by way of a living Guru, the SGGS. However, other than being a written record that gives us the tools to deal with life and live it as a good sikh should, is there any further than that? 

Does the SGGS have properties that elevate it above merely a written transcript, I am aware that it should not be worshipped, but cherished and respected as a living Guru, but does the SGGS have properties that one could call mystical?

I suppose to clarify this argument, one would have to debate whether the Gurus themselves had special powers, or mystical abilities, I would like to think the Gurus were human beings that had understood completely the point of Sikhi, and endured everything that they did with no other abilities than are open to you and me, if that is the case, then the 11th Guru, the living book , surely would embrace a similar vein that promoted enlightenment through understanding, study and practical implementation of knowledge through action, I believe there is nothing further than this, I would be most interested in anyone who felt mysticism in Sikhi


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Veer Ji 
_Is God not mystical or in your pragmatist Sikhi of tools is he is just an optional extra! _(No time to argue as have to go out ,just got the ball rolling for my friend)


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## Harry Haller (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji
> _Is God not mystical or in your pragmatist Sikhi of tools is he is just an optional extra! _(No time to argue as have to go out ,just got the ball rolling for my friend)



Believe it or not, as far as I am concerned, God did nothing other than Create, the rest is down to us, so I suppose I work on the basis of nil intervention by Creator

That makes Creator not even an optional extra, more of uhmm just a Creator, I suppose


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Veer Ji I'm back,don't the maker of Range Rovers or anything for that matter provide an after sales service and warranty,especially for driving club members ?


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Respected spji,
The hangover of other thread has to come to an end. We are all different and have the right to disagree in an agreeable manner,; let the gone be bye gone. It is a club. The world is a bigger club 


with love and regards.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Ok Veera ,I will agree in a disagreeable manner, for your hangover a joke;

'A husband and wife are shopping in their local Wal-Mart. 
The husband picks up a case of Budweiser and puts it in their cart.  
'What do you think you're doing?' asks the wife. 
... 'They're on sale, only $10 for 24 cans he replies. 
'Put them back, we can't afford them demands the wife, and so they carry on shopping. 

A few aisles further on along the woman picks up a $20 jar of face cream and puts it in the basket. 
What do you think you're doing?' asks the husband. 
'Its my face cream. It makes me look beautiful,' replies the wife. 
Her husband retorts: _'So does 24 cans of Budweiser and it's half the price._


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Gurus had controlled the 5 vices, they were the biggest MYSTICS of the world.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

For me much depends upon the definition of terms.

As I understand it Sikhism is not narrow enough and Mysticism is broad enough that there is no point trying to relate the inclusion and exclusion without specific examples.

Mysticism related to spirituality touches many of the same inners as Sikhism.  Mysticism related to mystical powers is another ball of wax.  With the following description I see Mysticism pulling away from Sikhism core values,



> *Mysticism*
> 
> _First published Thu Nov 11, 2004; substantive revision Tue Feb 9, 2010_
> The term ‘mysticism,’ comes from the Greek μυω, meaning “to conceal.” In the Hellenistic world, ‘mystical’ referred to “secret” religious rituals. In early Christianity the term came to refer to “hidden” allegorical interpretations of Scriptures and to hidden presences, such as that of Jesus at the Eucharist. Only later did the term begin to denote “mystical theology,” that included direct experience of the divine (See Bouyer, 1981). Typically, mystics, theistic or not, see their mystical experience as part of a larger undertaking aimed at human transformation (See, for example, Teresa of Avila, _Life_, Chapter 19) and not as the terminus of their efforts. Thus, in general, ‘mysticism’ would best be thought of as a constellation of distinctive practices, discourses, texts, institutions, traditions, and experiences aimed at human transformation, variously defined in different traditions.
> ...


So with the above understanding, mysticism as understood by the layman, does not line up with Sikhism.

Humbly submitted.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Harry Ji,

Umm... I think Guru Nanak Dev Ji embraced this quality of mysticism. In Sant Maskeen Singh Ji's katha, He often describes how Guru Ji would say "Mardana, get the rabaab ready, bani aye aa"... is that mysticism? the idea that Guru Ji claimed surrender, claimed they did not know how to speak any longer and upon this surrender, bani was uttered from the beyond??

this is just something i picked up on, if its incorrect, please dont jump me.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



> mysticism as understood by the layman, does not line up with Sikhism


 
Anti-Mystical Musketeers ,Quote _'Modern understanding,_ _The present meaning of the term mysticism arose via __Platonism__ and __Neoplatonism__—which referred to the Eleusinian initiation as a __metaphor__ for the "initiation" to spiritual truths and experiences—and is the pursuit of __communion__ with, identity with, or __conscious awareness__ of an ultimate__ reality__ ,divinity__, __spiritual truth__, or __God__ through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight'_


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 24, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



Navdeep88 said:


> Harry Ji,
> 
> Umm... I think Guru Nanak Dev Ji embraced this quality of mysticism. In Sant Maskeen Singh Ji's katha, He often describes how Guru Ji would say "Mardana, get the rabaab ready, bani aye aa"... is that mysticism? the idea that Guru Ji claimed surrender, claimed they did not know how to speak any longer and upon this surrender, bani was uttered from the beyond??
> 
> this is just something i picked up on, if its incorrect, please dont jump me.


Navdeep88 ji that is not Mysticism to relate the coming of thoughts in poetic or such rendition.  Many a times a poet will write down the same way and many a prose is written the same way.  With tape recorders and such not being in the environ, one way to keep your thoughts alive would be to share, bring it vocally into your conscious for remembering, and so on.  I would translate your "Mardana, get the rabaab ready, bani aye aa" in that context.  Of course it is only conjecture so I too stand corrected.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



Taranjeet singh said:


> Respected spji,
> The hangover of other thread has to come to an end. We are all different and have the right to disagree in an agreeable manner,; let the gone be bye gone. It is a club. The world is a bigger club
> 
> 
> with love and regards.



Taranjeetji, 

I have a running agreement with Spji that we will disagree on every post we make, I suppose we do it to play devils advocate, but I would be lost without Spji's disagreements, in fact, sometimes his disagreements are the only posts that actually validate my argument lol


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## Harry Haller (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji I'm back,don't the maker of Range Rovers or anything for that matter provide an after sales service and warranty,especially for driving club members ?



Spji, 

As you know, I am a lover of pre 1994 Range Rovers, which would not have a warranty anyway, and even if they did, the warranty would only work if the service schedule had been stuck to, religiously, which means all servicing and maintainence done as per the schedule, otherwise the warranty is worthless. 

But even then, the warranty would only involve replacing parts with new, the warranty would not in any way involve the performance of the car being increased to levels beyond the performance as indictated. 

This means that if we folow the schedule religiously, all we can hope for is a car that operates at the highest level of its specified performance, it cannot feed the five thousand on 3 fish, it cannot move the heavens, it cannot go beyond 125mph, its 0-60 is never going to get better than 10.7 secs, if it has a crash, some mysterious force is not going to protect it, it remains metal and plastic, just metal and plastic in the best condition it could be in. 

There was a story in the press recently about a Nigerian nurse, who, when presented with a dying child, proceeded to run about the room screaming 'help me jesus', until told to shut up by the mother, whilst the father attempted to revive the child, so which one is to be, practical implentation of knowledge to try and achieve perfection and oneness, or running around screaming for mystical help?


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Harry Veer ji*
I begin as follows:* It is to clarify that I have never felt any mysticism myself nor have heard any one saying that one has realized the Ultimate.
*
Meaning of Term
1. a. *Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God.
*b. *The experience of such communion as described by mystics.
*2. *A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.
*3. *Vague, groundless speculation. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mysticism


There are two ways of interpreting as to that you are aiming at by mysticism. 

1.  One way to look at ‘mystical powers’ is to equate these with as super natural powers, spiritual powers, occult powers etc that I would quantify in Punjabi equivalent of *Ridhi*, *sidhi *etc.

2. The other would be, and more appropriately, the power to commune with the God as and when wished. I make second presumption here that anyone who is in communion of God or is self realized person shall have an access to the powers as stated above @ sl.1 above
*
Per-Sikhism*

There is a reference to *Ridhi*, *sidhi* etc. in Bani as well. I had searched for ‘supernatural spiritual powers’ and there were about 20 results. You may try out different combination of words at srigranth.org; I am quoting two of these as the meanings of the lines are self contained.


_The nine treasures and the miraculous *spiritual powers* come by contemplating the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord_. [220-19]

_Those who meditate in remembrance on the True Guru, are blessed with wealth and prosperity, *supernatural spiritual powers* and the nine treasures.[_1405-17]

Your second part of the question relates to whether Gurus had mystical powers. I believe that they were Perfect Human being and self realized persons. Guru Nanak dev ji could turn the direction of the Mosque as per his convenience is an ample proof that Gurus were blessed with the super natural powers, the phenomenon of which we cannot explain.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Taranjeetji, 

My take on this is that the higher you proceed on any path to enlightenment, the higher your perception and mental abilities increase, some call it a third eye, the ability to see things that others cannot, I do not think this is a supernatural power at all, I think this is your brain working at a higher level, being able to read people better, to perceive people better, means you can, to the untrained eye, read minds, see into the future, etc, it is none of the sort of course, merely to look at a person and understand what they are capable of doing, and what they probably will do, this is perception and perception only, if you are tuned into the Creators frequency, then the whole of mankind is available for your study, and you will have the ability to relate completely to the tycoon, the rapist, the drug addict, the prostitute, and understand what each is going through and how each deals with life, 

Is knowing the hearts of so many wisdom? Is understanding the thoughts of so many knowledge? The Gurus knew all hearts and minds, they knew what people were capable of, they knew who was good, and who was not so good, who was faking, and who was real, 

Once you have this knowledge and perception, the world is yours, and at that time, you say to  yourself, ask not what your world can do for you, but what can you do for your world............

On that basis, I put the point forward that mysticism within Sikhism does not exist, cannot exist, for that would make a mockery of the tribulations and sacrificies of our Gurus, and Sikhs throughout time, it is cold hard mental tuning to the Creators frequency, instructions contained in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for living by. 

Anyone who feels they can get to the same level by chanting, praying, concentrating has as much chance of passing a University degree in the same fashion, mystical learning begats mystical knowledge

This is a good time to quote from dear Herman Hesse

Hesse stated that there were artists and mystics, artists were those who could create what they saw in their mind, to produce music, paintings, art, whereas mystics were those who had the same visions, but without the ability to create, I have always thought of mystics as second best because of this, I would rather be an artist, studying how to be able to create,  than a mystic


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhqbFwjLqzE&feature=player_popout#t=1746s


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



harry haller said:


> Taranjeetji,
> 
> Is knowing the hearts of so many wisdom? Is understanding the thoughts of so many knowledge? The Gurus knew all hearts and minds, they knew what people were capable of, they knew who was good, and who was not so good, who was faking, and who was real,
> 
> ...



Harry Veer ji,

I have gone through your post for three times. I shall react to it as per my very limited understanding of the things. Being conscious of this and the wrath of sangat , I shall only observe as follows:

I agree with you at most parts. If our mind is cleansed so much that senses and sensual objects becomes under control, it is the first stage that we are moving in direction of having a resonance with the creators frequency. What you call as the Third eye is stated to be ‘Chautha Pad’ in Gurbani.  

  The Gurbani has stated the purpose of life at more than one place. The basis objective of the human body is different from animals. The object of human body can not be to be just like animals and birds. [*Thread:* Animals are more Sikhs…]

 BeI prwpiq mwnuK dyhurIAw ] goibMd imlx kI ieh qyrI brIAw ]
  It is the only incarnation which has the potential of transcending the cycle of life and death and become one with ONE.

keI jnm Bey kIt pqMgw ] keI jnm *gj mIn kurMgw* ] keI jnm *pMKI srp* hoieE ] 
keI jnm *hYvr ibRK* joieE ] 1] imlu jgdIs imln kI brIAw ] icrMkwl ieh dyh sMjrIAw ]1]

After so very long, this human body was granted. Now it has become possible to end this perpetual cycle of life and death.
  Now is the turn to meet Him, the Lord of the Universe. What is meeting HIM? It is self realization, being one with the ONE.
*
Quote*
Once you have this knowledge and perception, the world is yours, and at that time, you say to yourself, ask not what your world can do for you, but what can you do for your world........*Unquote*....At this point one lives for others and his Karmas are over as He is one with the ONE. The Soul merges in the eternal and the mind gets the eternal peace.[Rest I shall be able to tell when I have achieved that stage for which I do not aspire. Life is a continuous phenomenon. Death is only a visit to change room for the beginning of a new play and we may start from where we left in our last life. [I am not sure of this aspect, seniors may kindly like to advise as theory of Karma should fortify this.]]


*Quote*”Anyone who feels they can get to the same level by chanting, praying, concentrating has as much chance of passing a University degree in the same fashion, mystical learning begats mystical knowledge. ….”*Unquote*
  I presume that it may not be as simple. How many Bhagats have we heard of during past three or four centuries who could make it to the ‘finals’?
I know of none. But there may be few.

People who reach this stage that they are completely attuned would be one in Billions and that also if he casts His Grace.[Gurbani]
  We may make efforts but unless and until he approves of us the merger or the realization is not possible. [Gurbani]

Having learnt the objective of life, it is always advisable to work on that Guru Sahibs had instructed.
  Sikhs do not aspire to be mystics . Sikhs want HIS continued blessings and courage to move by HIS Will or as per HIS order by becoming Gurmukh. And if He is pleased He may take us out of cycle of incarnations. *Dhur Likhe Sanjog* [ Our meeting HIM is pre decided since ages]
*
Sanjog vijog dui kar chlavey Lekhe avay Bhaag*
We get that is destined*.
*
An artist can create ..yes.. But what? If some one can create..HE should be as Good as GOD.

*Note and Caution* : I have made all efforts to state that is per Gurbani. But there are chances that something might have crept in post that needs the kind attention of my Seniors.It is humbly submitted that necessary amendments may be brought in during the progression of thread.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Taranjeetji

mundahug


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

SP ji,


Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhqbFwjLqzE&


Exactly  Thank you for this SP ji, he is brilliant.

Navdeep ji that's the idea. 

I don't think many people understand what mysticism is. It becomes a label for what they dislike not for what it actually is. The entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by mystics, so I think there is no question of whether Sikhism embraces mysticism. The entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is describing a way to reach liberation by merging with God.

Harry ji,


> My take on this is that the higher you proceed on any path to enlightenment, the higher your perception and mental abilities increase, some call it a third eye, the ability to see things that others cannot,


= mysticism.
If someone were to say that is supernatural. Would it change that? Would is change the actual thing? Would it make that more mystical than it already is?

Everything is perception Harry ji. There is nothing outside of perception. The growing of this perception to extremely powerful, ecstatic and vivid states is referred to as a mystical experience. This is when you feel you are the perception and the perception is you. This is called "merging with God" in Eastern philosophy.

"chanting, praying, concentrating" sounds like "cold hard mental tuning to the Creators frequency". Cold hard is repeating one word over and over again for several hours, and having your complete attention on that one word for the entire time. Try it and see how difficult it is.

Harry ji, the mystic experiences states that are so much more vast and vivid than anything that can be created. I don't think Hesse understands this. My guess is that he was not a mystic. To say a mystic is second best to the artist because he cannot recreate his state for you, would be grossly unjust. It is like asking a human to wave his arms up and down and labelling him second best to a bird if he cannot fly.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਆਖਾ ਜੀਵਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
आखा जीवा विसरै मरि जाउ ॥
Ākẖā jīvā visrai mar jā▫o.
Chanting it, I live; forgetting it, I die.

*ਆਖਣਿ ਅਉਖਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
आखणि अउखा साचा नाउ ॥
Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.
It is so difficult to chant the True Name.*

ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥
साचे नाम की लागै भूख ॥
Sācẖe nām kī lāgai bẖūkẖ.
If someone feels hunger for the True Name,

ਉਤੁ ਭੂਖੈ ਖਾਇ ਚਲੀਅਹਿ ਦੂਖ ॥੧॥
उतु भूखै खाइ चलीअहि दूख ॥१॥
Uṯ bẖūkẖai kẖā▫e cẖalī▫ahi ḏūkẖ. ||1||
that hunger shall consume his pain. ||1||

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
सो किउ विसरै मेरी माइ ॥
So ki▫o visrai merī mā▫e.
How can I forget Him, O my mother?

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
साचा साहिबु साचै नाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖai nā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
True is the Master, True is His Name. ||1||Pause||

*ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਲੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
साचे नाम की तिलु वडिआई ॥
Sācẖe nām kī ṯil vadi▫ā▫ī.
Trying to describe even an iota of the Greatness of the True Name,

ਆਖਿ ਥਕੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
आखि थके कीमति नही पाई ॥
Ākẖ thake kīmaṯ nahī pā▫ī.
people have grown weary, but they have not been able to evaluate it.*

ਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਆਖਣ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
जे सभि मिलि कै आखण पाहि ॥
Je sabẖ mil kai ākẖaṇ pāhi.
Even if everyone were to gather together and speak of Him,

ਵਡਾ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਟਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥
वडा न होवै घाटि न जाइ ॥२॥
vadā na hovai gẖāt na jā▫e. ||2||
He would not become any greater or any lesser. ||2||

ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
ना ओहु मरै न होवै सोगु ॥
Nā oh marai na hovai sog.
That Lord does not die; there is no reason to mourn.

ਦੇਦਾ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਚੂਕੈ ਭੋਗੁ ॥
देदा रहै न चूकै भोगु ॥
Ḏeḏā rahai na cẖūkai bẖog.
He continues to give, and His Provisions never run short.

ਗੁਣੁ ਏਹੋ ਹੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
गुणु एहो होरु नाही कोइ ॥
Guṇ eho hor nāhī ko▫e.
This Virtue is His alone; there is no other like Him.

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਆ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
ना को होआ ना को होइ ॥३॥
Nā ko ho▫ā nā ko ho▫e. ||3||
There never has been, and there never will be. ||3||

ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਤੇਵਡ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥
जेवडु आपि तेवड तेरी दाति ॥
Jevad āp ṯevad ṯerī ḏāṯ.
As Great as You Yourself are, O Lord, so Great are Your Gifts.

ਜਿਨਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਕੀਤੀ ਰਾਤਿ ॥
जिनि दिनु करि कै कीती राति ॥
Jin ḏin kar kai kīṯī rāṯ.
The One who created the day also created the night.

ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਕਮਜਾਤਿ ॥
खसमु विसारहि ते कमजाति ॥
Kẖasam visārėh ṯe kamjāṯ.
Those who forget their Lord and Master are vile and despicable.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਵੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਸਨਾਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥
नानक नावै बाझु सनाति ॥४॥३॥
Nānak nāvai bājẖ sanāṯ. ||4||3||
O Guru Nanak, without the Name, they are wretched outcasts. ||4||3||


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



BhagatSingh said:


> SP ji,
> 
> Exactly  Thank you for this SP ji, he is brilliant.
> 
> ...


Bhagat Singh veer thanks for your post.  I do want to understand your understanding of the text you put in Bold.  

Specially what you understand by the word "*Name*" in the shabad.  As we all know it is highly found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  I take it to mean "*Understanding*" or "*identification*" for the "*creator*".  As with each name goes more than the name and it conjures up a visualization of the named.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:  *_Isn't there a saying that math is the universe.  So such should closely align with the mool mantar as the unwavering truth._


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have the similar queries as Ambarsaria ji does. The literal translation seems to be misleading. Can you please put this beautiful poetry (the whole Shabad) in your own words? Poetry put into prose with your personal understanding can give us the glimpse of the clearer understanding of the message as seen by you.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mystic
mystic  

mys·tic  (mstk)
adj.
1. Of or relating to religious mysteries or occult rites and practices.
2. Of or relating to mysticism or mystics.
*3. Inspiring a sense of mystery and wonder.
4.*
*a. Mysterious; strange.
b. Enigmatic; obscure.*
5. Mystical.
n.
One who practices or believes in mysticism or a given form of mysticism: Protestant mystics.
[Middle English mystik, from Latin mysticus, from Greek mustikos, from musts, initiate; see mystery1.]

There is nothing mysterious, obscure, strange about Sikhi. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is open to all. It is a  treasure trove which is  full of gems, and anyone, from any hue,creed or faith can dig them for their personal use and share with anyone. There is no restriction nor any mystery about it.

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 26, 2011)

Shabad from page 9:

Ambarsaria ji,
My understanding of Naam is that it is everything; the universe, existence itself is Naam. Through Naam we come to understand God. Through forms we come to understand the formless. It is also a word designated for God such as "God", "Ram", "Hari", "Allah". Thus through repitition of the Naam, or chanting it we can come to know God. Similar idea, the latter being more specific to Sikh tradition. E.g. Specific to Buddh tradition is Buddhists concentrating on their breath, through forms the formless is reached in this way. The shabad speaks of both the specific and the general. 

Naam is a process as well as all the forms that exist. Naam is a process of seeing the formless through forms, forms being Naam as well. Both are indescribable, one can only experience them to know.

Naam is a realization of what you have been taking for granted.

Naam, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, used as "a word designated for God"; the above are deeper meanings to what it means to have repeated and meditated on the Naam.

A little bit on mystery:
The direct experience/ perception of God is Naam. This experience/perception works in mysterious ways. 

It is a perception of mystery.

This perception is filled with awe and wonder but also much more than that. It is ecstatic, it is a union between "I" and "Everything else". 

The universe is a mysterious, obscure, strange place. This can be understood through thought but the moment it is intuitively realized... is a mystical experience and enlightenment.


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 26, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



BhagatSingh said:


> SP ji,
> 
> Exactly  Thank you for this SP ji, he is brilliant.
> 
> ...


Bhagat Veer ji,
Thanks for a wonderful post. I have also posted twice in this thread but now realize that unless the context in which Harry ji has used the word 'Mysticism ' is clear, no useful purpose would be served. There are four or five interpretations of this term already given.  Sp ji, Sh Tewant ji , ambarsaria ji, myself and Navdeep ji. 
 No term is in full agreement with another; hence unless the context in which the querist has initiated this becomes clear we shall be grappling for nothing.
Mysticism may seem 'magical' to me. To you it may not. It is the context that has to be seen before analyzing further. 
Respected Tejwant ji has already pointed out that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is living guru and anyone can find guidance for oneself. Gynai ji has also stated that Gurbani is not Mantra. Personally speaking I would lay rest to the discussion barring , of course, a suitable clarification on contextual meaning of the word used.

Regards
Tjs


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 26, 2011)

Bhagat Singh veer I am understanding of your post but this part I am so not built for,


> Thus through repitition of the Naam, or chanting it we can come to know God.



So I cannot comment as my belief is repeatedly chanting something has always an implied association to understanding/visualization before perhaps you lose your senses through exhaustion/enlightenment.  So the starting point at times may determine where one ends up rather than euphoric exhaustion and a belief of enlightenment.

Hence I tend to perhaps little more on understanding before such as chanting.  So when I see people chanting in Gurdwaras like "Waheguru Waheguru .........." I feel bewildered as to whether it is the sheep following the guide, copy analogy to yawning by unconsciously seeing others yawn, etc.,  without having an understanding.  Perhaps it is people just want to rinse their mind by closing eyes and getting out of breath or hyper-ventilating.  If it is enlightenment I will never get it.  But then again it is quite possible I am missing something.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 26, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,
You use the word understanding...
What is this an understanding of? (having an understanding of what?)


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## Harry Haller (Nov 26, 2011)

Taranjeetji, 

I agree with you, my title is poorly worded, however, I think we are grasping what mysticism means to each of us through the thread, and I am pleased to note that the mysticism that is deemed acceptable is not the asking of miracles, or the request to Creator to change the laws of physics, or indeed any of the magic shows one can view in the name of religion, so far, through this thread, I would say Sikh mysticism to me concentrates on the bond between Creator and Man, and nothing more, that is a kind of mysticism that I can embrace, and everyones answers have been hugely helpful


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 26, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you Harry Veer ji ,I am glad that you clarified.Title of the thread and the content are in perfect sync. in so far as your initial post is concerned. One has the right to be wiser with passage of time. I am also bit wiser after doing this thread. The thread is instrumental in initiating me to have a deeper reading of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Thanks for this as well. Yeah, we retain the right to differ occasionally and those occasions would be few, I believe.

Warm Regards!
TJS


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## findingmyway (Nov 26, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



Taranjeet singh said:


> _The nine treasures and the miraculous *spiritual powers* come by contemplating the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord_. [220-19]
> 
> _Those who meditate in remembrance on the True Guru, are blessed with wealth and prosperity, *supernatural spiritual powers* and the nine treasures.[_1405-17]



As per forum TOS please post the full shabads in Gurmukhi and your understanding in English. This is necessary for full understanding of the shabad to allow others to come to their own understanding too. Quoting single lines takes the meaning out of context and can hamper true understanding of the shabad. Thank you.




> Your second part of the question relates to whether Gurus had mystical powers. I believe that they were Perfect Human being and self realized persons. Guru Nanak dev ji could turn the direction of the Mosque as per his convenience is an ample proof that Gurus were blessed with the super natural powers, the phenomenon of which we cannot explain.


 

Please see this thread. I hope you find it interesting http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/26973-what-really-happened-in-mecca.html


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## Harry Haller (Nov 26, 2011)

I have just read the thread on Mecca, the impression I now get of Creator is not that of an energy that needs to impress anyone with a magic show, Creator made the rules, and Creator respects those same rules, anything less would be hypocritical, everything that has taken place, everything that will happen, if what we believe in to be true, is beautiful, mystical, logical, explainable, there are two sides to the coin, there are a million sides to the coin, a lack of mumbo jumbo makes things clearer, achievable, dispels the need for faith, faith is for miracles and the unexplainable, faith bridges the gap between what we know, and what we do not understand, better to work on understanding more than trying to deepen your faith, in my humble opinion


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 26, 2011)

*Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism*



findingmyway said:


> As per forum TOS please post the full shabads in Gurmukhi and your understanding in English. This is necessary for full understanding of the shabad to allow others to come to their own understanding too. Quoting single lines takes the meaning out of context and can hamper true understanding of the shabad. Thank you.
> 
> 
> Please see this thread. I hope you find it interesting http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/26973-what-really-happened-in-mecca.html



Thank you, Sir, for reminding me of TOS. I shall post full shabads as desired in day or two as I shall have to do some home work.  It shall help me also conceptualizing on Naam. 
Thank you once again.

tjs


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 26, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Taranjeetji,
> 
> I agree with you, my title is poorly worded, however, I think we are grasping what mysticism means to each of us through the thread, and I am pleased to note that the mysticism that is deemed acceptable is not the asking of miracles, or the request to Creator to change the laws of physics, or indeed any of the magic shows one can view in the name of religion, so far, through this thread, *I would say Sikh mysticism to me concentrates on the bond between Creator and Man, and nothing more, that is a kind of mysticism that I can embrace,* and everyones answers have been hugely helpful



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

When the bond is created between Ik Ong Kaar and the Sikh, then there is no mystery left. It is an open love which is the most beautiful life changing  metamorphosis that one feels the compulsion to share this goodness with the whole world.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 26, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Bhagat Singh veer I am understanding of your post but this part I am so not built for,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I tend to agree with Ambarsaria ji on this one. In one of my other posts I said that one can repeat the name of Lady Gaga for 30 minutes and may feel good about it for a while. Repetition does have that effect but there is nothing *mystic* about it.

I remember when I used to visit the Dodra Vaheguru Jatha many moons  ago, the importance on Vaheguru Simran was the first and the foremost. There was one hour of loud parroting of Vaheguru at 5 am and then 15 minutes of the silent simran. Once the loud simran stopped, one could hear more than half the sangat, which was in hundreds snoring and this was a daily affair. I am sure snoring during simran does not make anyone mystic.

Military training is based on the same concept where the repetition creates a second nature so one's actions have no hesitance, in this case, in the war zone. However, this has nothing to do with Sikhi and its  Gurmat concept.

The repetition in Sikhi is like remembering the lessons given by our Father so we do things in a right way. That is why we read Gurbani again and again so that the concept is understood which can be used in our everyday lives.

Parroting something or anything mechanically is not a Sikhi concept in my opinion. And there is no mystery which can be discovered/found, nor can we come to know God who is omnipresent via chanting which is a nicer way to say parroting.  





> "*through repitition of the Naam, or chanting it we can come to know God"*


*.*

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Nov 26, 2011)

Gurfatehji,

just a thought, moving beyond the actual manner of getting to this state, what are your thoughts on the actual state itself


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 26, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> You use the word understanding...
> What is this an understanding of? (having an understanding of what?)


_Bhagat Singh ji that is easy to answer for me and here it goes in point form,
_
_*Understanding Definition for me: * What, where, when, who and why_
_*

Understanding Goal in Sikhism *(called naam, waheguru, Guru, Gur, Prabh, Prabhu, etc.)*
*_

Of the creator with help from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Of creation with help from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Living in consonance with the understanding of the creator and creation so gotten and always developing further
Greater level of peace with self and others in creation through actions and decisions will reflect the level of one's understanding

Understanding will never be complete and one forever learns 

Hence we will always make mistakes and the quantity may diminish over time through understanding

 
Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 26, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji (and Tejwant Singh ji)
The kind of understanding that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is talking about isn't "What, where, when, who and why". Because this can be known quite easily through simply reading the text, and understanding in this way is only helpful if it gets you to direct perception of God, which is not an understanding but an actual perceiving of God. It is a ecstatic union with him. It is having a _darsan_, a revelation, an illumination. What, where when who or why do not matter here. It is a miraculous event. (Harry ji )

(pause)

Tricks of the intellect of defining, describing, naming, breaking down, understanding, logic and reasoning do not go very far. That is because intellect while playing an important role in getting one to union, is also getting in the the way of union. Intellect happens in the realm of duality. The way to beat intellect is not using further intellect but by relaxing the intellectual muscles of the mind, by relaxing the mind's conditioned reaction to everything. Chanting is a way of doing this.

If those who chant without understanding are stuck on the first level, then those who understand but do not chant are stuck on the second, there is yet a third level in which both come to dwell together. 
(pause)

On chanting - http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...th-and-sitting-darbar-sahib-4.html#post156855

Guru Sahib say that it is difficult to chant the True Name. This is not so much the actual act of saying but keeping your attention on the moment you say the Naam. keeping your attention on the sounds. gavieh sunieh man rakhieh bhau, Sing and listen and be filled with love - Japji, 5. Keeping your attention in the present, rather than letting it wander in the past or future. (Although to be in the present, you have to let your attention wander.) Chanting is a technique for doing this. Other traditions have different techniques as I have mentioned.

Forgetting the Naam, one is attached to duality. To truly chant the Naam, is to say the Naam while being present and completely detached.

(pause)

In a way, this is training. It is like the training of an athlete, who trains his body. Here we train our mind and learn to become still and learn to accept everything as good/God. (The anecdotes you present Tejwant Singh ji are of lazy athletes)

Only a still mind can see what it is taking for granted. Only when we see what we are taking for granted do we accept everything as good/God.

(pause)

This is true faith.

ਬਸੰਤੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੨ ਹਿੰਡੋਲ
बसंतु महला ५ घरु २ हिंडोल
Basanṯ mėhlā 5 gẖar 2 hindol
Basant, Fifth Mehl, Second House, Hindol:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
होइ इकत्र मिलहु मेरे भाई दुबिधा दूरि करहु लिव लाइ ॥
Ho▫e ikaṯar milhu mere bẖā▫ī ḏubiḏẖā ḏūr karahu liv lā▫e.
Come and join together, O my Siblings of Destiny; dispel your sense of duality and let yourselves be lovingly absorbed in the Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਕੇ ਹੋਵਹੁ ਜੋੜੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੈਸਹੁ ਸਫਾ ਵਿਛਾਇ ॥੧॥
हरि नामै के होवहु जोड़ी गुरमुखि बैसहु सफा विछाइ ॥१॥
Har nāmai ke hovhu joṛī gurmukẖ baishu safā vicẖẖā▫e. ||1||
Let yourselves be joined to the Name of the Lord; become Gurmukh, spread out your mat, and sit down. ||1||

ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਪਾਸਾ ਢਾਲਹੁ ਬੀਰ ॥
इन्ह बिधि पासा ढालहु बीर ॥
Inĥ biḏẖ pāsā dẖālahu bīr.
In this way, throw the dice, O brothers.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ *ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ* ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਹ ਲਾਗੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि नामु जपहु दिनु राती अंत कालि नह लागै पीर ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ nām japahu ḏin rāṯī anṯ kāl nah lāgai pīr. ||1|| rahā▫o.
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, day and night. At the very last moment, you shall not have to suffer in pain. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਉਪੜਿ ਸਾਜਹੁ ਸਤੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਾਰੀ ॥
करम धरम तुम्ह चउपड़ि साजहु सतु करहु तुम्ह सारी ॥
Karam ḏẖaram ṯumĥ cẖa▫upaṛ sājahu saṯ karahu ṯumĥ sārī.
Let righteous actions be your game board, and let the truth be your dice.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਜੀਤਹੁ ਐਸੀ ਖੇਲ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥੨॥
कामु क्रोधु लोभु मोहु जीतहु ऐसी खेल हरि पिआरी ॥२॥
Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ moh jīṯahu aisī kẖel har pi▫ārī. ||2||
Conquer sexual desire, anger, greed and worldly attachment; only such a game as this is dear to the Lord. ||2||

ਉਠਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਪਰਭਾਤੇ ਸੋਏ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥
उठि इसनानु करहु परभाते सोए हरि आराधे ॥
Uṯẖ isnān karahu parbẖāṯe so▫e har ārāḏẖe.
Rise in the early hours of the morning, and take your cleansing bath. Before you go to bed at night, remember to worship the Lord.

ਬਿਖੜੇ ਦਾਉ ਲੰਘਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਤੇ ॥੩॥
बिखड़े दाउ लंघावै मेरा सतिगुरु सुख सहज सेती घरि जाते ॥३॥
Bikẖ▫ṛe ḏā▫o langẖāvai merā saṯgur sukẖ sahj seṯī gẖar jāṯe. ||3||
My True Guru will assist you, even on your most difficult moves; you shall reach your true home in celestial peace and poise. ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਖੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
हरि आपे खेलै आपे देखै हरि आपे रचनु रचाइआ ॥
Har āpe kẖelai āpe ḏekẖai har āpe racẖan racẖā▫i▫ā.
The Lord Himself plays, and He Himself watches; the Lord Himself created the creation.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਖੇਲੈ ਸੋ ਜਿਣਿ ਬਾਜੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੯॥
जन नानक गुरमुखि जो नरु खेलै सो जिणि बाजी घरि आइआ ॥४॥१॥१९॥
Jan Nānak gurmukẖ jo nar kẖelai so jiṇ bājī gẖar ā▫i▫ā. ||4||1||19||
O servant Guru Nanak, that person who plays this game as Gurmukh, wins the game of life, and returns to his true home. ||4||1||19||
pg 1185

Dubida Door Karo Liv Laye - Bhai Harjinder Singh      - YouTube


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 26, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji can you tell or say what you chant?

Is it Wahegugu Wahegur ...; etc.

It is very hard to relate as it can't be just "Naam  Naam  ......"

Is their a video example that willcome close to what you mean?

Thanks and Sat Sri Akal.


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 26, 2011)

Findingmyway ji,

Kindly find the first sabad at ang 220 with small write up. I have not expanded as the purpose of Line 220-19 was included in the post to state the Bani contains reference to *Ridhi* and *sidhi*. However, as desired I am giving below the full sabad. I have also given some links to Naam that I understand in different context and shall post my views at appropriate time  
*
Context to this Thread*
 
Line 220-19 was posted to show that bani- contains a reference to Ridhi and sidhi i.e super natural powers. It is, however, not the aspiration of a sikh to attain these types of powers. These may be bye products and Bonus to a practitioner of Naam and bani. One may kindly refer to the post at the link:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37649-does-sikhism-embrace-mysticism-2.html 
 Post dated 25<sup>th</sup> November, 2011
*Shabad at ang 220*

  Shabad at page 220 deals with various aspects of Sikhism and embraces within its fold many valuable concepts. I have taken the help of translation from Sant Sigh ji Khalsa .. As the sabad is fairly lengthy, to look at the lines up to Rahao and  reflect on  the essence of sabad 
*
Concepts introduced that one may like to study further*
  Maya, Naam, spiritual wisdom, Jeevan Mukt., ego, Gurmukh, Manmukh, Hukum, His Grace

*Full shabad in Gurmukhi reads as follows*

   rwgu gauVI AstpdIAw mhlw 1 gauVI guAwryrI  (220-18)
  Raag Gauree, Ashtapadees, First Mehl: Gauree Gwaarayree: 
<> siqnwmu krqw purKu gur pRswid ] (220-18)
 iniD isiD inrml nwmu bIcwru ] (220-19, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 pUrn pUir rihAw ibKu mwir ] (220-19, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 iqRkutI CUtI ibml mJwir ] (220-19, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 gur kI miq jIie AweI kwir ]1] (221-1, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 ien ibiD rwm rmq mnu mwinAw ] (221-1, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 igAwn AMjnu gur sbid pCwinAw ]1] rhwau ] (221-1, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 ieku suKu mwinAw shij imlwieAw ] (221-2, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 inrml bwxI Brmu cukwieAw ] (221-2, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 lwl Bey sUhw rMgu mwieAw ] (221-3, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 ndir BeI ibKu Twik rhwieAw ]2] (221-3, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 ault BeI jIvq mir jwigAw ] (221-3, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 sbid rvy mnu hir isau lwigAw ] (221-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 rsu sMgRih ibKu prhir iqAwigAw ] (221-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 Bwie bsy jm kw Bau BwigAw ]3] (221-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 swd rhy bwdM AhMkwrw ] (221-5, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 icqu hir isau rwqw hukim Apwrw ] (221-5, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 jwiq rhy piq ky Awcwrw ] (221-5, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 idRsit BeI suKu Awqm Dwrw ]4] (221-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 quJ ibnu koie n dyKau mIqu ] (221-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 iksu syvau iksu dyvau cIqu ] (221-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 iksu pUCau iksu lwgau pwie ] (221-7, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 iksu aupdyis rhw ilv lwie ]5] (221-7, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 gur syvI gur lwgau pwie ] (221-7, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 Bgiq krI rwcau hir nwie ] (221-8, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 isiKAw dIiKAw Bojn Bwau ] (221-8, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 hukim sMjogI inj Gir jwau ]6] (221-8, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 grb gqM suK Awqm iDAwnw ] (221-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 joiq BeI joqI mwih smwnw ] (221-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 ilKqu imtY nhI sbdu nIswnw ] (221-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 krqw krxw krqw jwnw ]7] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 nh pMifqu nh cquru isAwnw ] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 nh BUlo nh Brim Bulwnw ] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 kQau n kQnI hukmu pCwnw ] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
 nwnk gurmiq shij smwnw ]8]1] (221-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
*Rahao Line*
  The nine treasures and the *miraculous spiritual powers* come by contemplating the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. One has to be above Maya for attaining the higher spiritual states. Lord, himself, helps His devotees to overcome the Maya, the fangs of whom would not torture the Gurmukh..Guru sahibs state further the significance of Gurmat and Guruvaaks. It is through contemplation of Gurbani and Guru sabad and Naam that one attains wisdom and bibek budhi and all that is stated above. 
*
Sabad- In Brief as per my understanding*

By HIS grace Maya and its influence can be annulled.One can attain the state of Jeevan Mukt by contemplating Bani and Naam. Gurmukh overcomes ego and his pursuit for physical possessions and worldly honor also comes to halt. It is through Guru’s Grace that one finds peace, solace and tranquility and mind realizes the His essence that becomes visible to the one who contemplates Naam and bani. In this state one finds only the Lord as the best friend and one remains immersed in His name. One realizes the self by engaging one self immersed in GurBani and Naam.. The pride in physical possessions becomes insipid and meaning less. Having overcome maya and ego the soul attains eternal peace and the fear of death vanishes. For some it is pre ordained and destined to realize Him in inner- self.

It is Gurmukh who realizes that all that is happening as per His Commend and order. Entire creation acts accordingly. Having understood this one attains peace and remains absorbed in Guru’s teachings. [/FONT]
*
General Observations*
  We have two set of opinions in regard to Naam and Practices. Some believe in chanting and some do not. Guru Granth sahib ji prescribes methods as to how Naam is to be practiced. The links with Extracts are provided for those who intend to proceed further .

I am providing few links for the kind perusal of those who are interested in further investigation. But Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji provides the final guide.

*1. Following link tells us something about Naam.-post by Gogi*
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/15726-concept-of-naam-in-sikhi.html

*CONCEPT OF NAM IN Sikhi*
 According to Gurmat (Guru's teaching), before the creation, God lived Absolutely by Himself, Formless. When He made Himself manifest, He first formed Himself into NAM (Divine Name) and then created Nature. After creating Nature, He did not go away from it, rather He sustained His creation with His Own presence into it, and felt delighted.
 

"Aapinai aap sajio aapinai      rachio Nao
     Dui kudrat sajiai kar asan ditho chao."
     (Asa Mohalla 1- pauri 1, p-463) 
 "God      created Himself and assumed Name
     Second besides Himself He created Nature 
     Seated in Nature He watches with delight what He creates." 
     (Translation of the above)
 NAM (Divine Name) and God are not two different entities. Nam is just another aspect of the Almighty, still Formless. Nam is the total expression of all that God is. Nam sustains everything:
 

"Nam sustains and controls all beings 

     Nam supports the universe and its regions."
(Gauri Sukhmani Mohalla 5,      16-5, p-284)
 Nam is not expressed as mere noun and it does not mean that there is a special name of God and by enchanting of which, one will meet Him. He is Infinite and can be called with infinite names, but who can count His infinite names? The enlightened and the blessed ones remember Him through His Attributes:
 

"Tav sarb nam kathai kavan 
     Karm nam barnat sumat." 
     (Guru Gobind Singh- Jap Sahib) 
 God may be called by countless names by the devotees, who create these names according to the attributes of their Godhead, but the first and the foremost name of God is clearly depicted as 'SAT' (Eternal Truth) which shows the ever-existence of God:
 

"Kirtam nam kathai terei jihba 
     Satnam tera pra purbla." 
     (Maru Mohalla 5, p-1083)
 The word NAM is a mystic Word used in practical religious life and in discipline of meditation. God is remembered by His attributive names. There is another aspect of it called true Name which emanates from a prophet's personal experience. It emerges from a vision that the Prophet has of the Divine Being. Such a mystic Word in Sikh religion is called '*Waheguru*' or Wonderful God or 'Thou art Wonderful'. True Name is not the word by which we describe an object, but the total power, quality and character of Reality. Through the word 'Waheguru' the prophet has tried to sum up mystic power and experience of His presence all around. Prophets have given us Divine Names of the nameless God, which reflect His presence in our consciousness. Contemplation or meditation on true Name (Waheguru) is called practicing the presence of God in one's conscious.
 

*Gurbani is Nam: *"Gurmukh      bani Nam hai.."
     (Sarang ki Var-pauri, p-1239) 
*Gurbani is Guru:* "Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani..."
     (Nat Mohalla 4, p-982)
*Gurbani is Nirankar:*"Wauh wauh bani nirankar hai Tis jiwad      avar na koi." 
     (Slok Mohalla 3, p-515)
 'Wauh wauh Bani is the Formless One 
     There is none as great as He." 
     (Translation of the above)
*Gurbani is every Nad and Ved:*
 "Sabh nad beid gurbani Man rata      sarang pani." 
     (Ramkli Mohalla 1, p-879)
 It is, therefore, Nam that ultimately leads a person to Eternal Bliss. For God consciousness, one must come in contact with Nam, but without Guru one cannot attain Nam and would wander away in the darkness.

*2. Post by Roopk*
  2. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/15726-concept-of-naam-in-sikhi-2.html


*Sikhism and Monotheism*

The article "Naam and Sabad" was published in the journal "Studies In Sikhism and Comparative Religion" a publication of the Guru Nanak Foundation, New Delhi. The author Sardar Daljeet Singh was formerly Secretary to the Government of Punjab, Department of Education. The following are some excerpts:


(i) God in Sikhism is Monotheistic. God is both "Transcendent" and "Immanent" and the world is his Creation.

(ii) The Transcendent God expresed Himself in "Naam" and "Sabad" that created the world.

(iii) "Naam" and "Sabad" are the 'Creative and Dynamic Immanence of God'.


(iv) The Sikh Gurus have clearly emphasized the transcendental character of God by saying that the world was created in time and space and the Transcendental God had been there while the world was uncreated. It is also stated that the "Word" was in God when there was no universe or form. "Naam" was prior to the creation of the universe i.e. "God manifested into Naam, after it the world was created."

(v) In no religious Scripture the distinction between the transcendent and the immanent aspects of God is made more clear than in the Guru Granth because God's Immanence has been given separate names viz. Naam, Will and Word. Evidently, all immanence can be expressed only in relation to the realm of creation i.e. when God's immanence as Naam creates, sustains and controls the world of name and form; when God's immanence as His Will moves and directs the becoming world; when His Immanence as His Word informs and supports the universe. In short, "He (God) is pervading everywhere (Immanent) and yet He is beyond everything, beyond pleasure and pain(Transcendent)." 

(vi) Throughout the hymns of Guru Granth, nothing is more significant than acceptance of Creature-Creator relation between man and God. Invariably, God has been addressed as "Thou", "Father", "Mother", "Beloved" etc. Infact, a majority of the hymns are in the form of prayers, addresed to God........So much so that the Guru calls himself as the "lowliest of the low", and never does he mention another person as "That is Thou". The fifth Guru declined to include in the Guru Granth a hymn of Bhagat Kaanhaa, saying, "I am He, O I am the same", because the Guru felt it to be contrary to the Sikh thesis that man is not and cannot be God though he can be His instrument.

*3.Post by Amarpal ji*.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/8672-naam-my-understanding.html

*4.Nam Japo..sikhi wiki..*
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Naam_japo

*Naam* and *Naam Japo* or *Naam Japna* - Is the remembrance of God by repeating and focussing the mind on His name or identity. The names given to God primarily refer to the attributes of the Almighty and His various qualities. The guideline in the *Rehit Mariyada* of Guru Gobind Singh demands that the Sikh engages in Naam Simran as part of his or her everyday routine………………………….
  ………………………………
*Naam* is not mere repetition of God's name. It is opposed to roop ("form") adopted by those indulging in idol worship. Naam here stands for attribute/s. It is a noun which describes the qualities of a person, thing, the Lord. We find many such forms in Mool Mantra. Naam Simran therefore is to concentrate on attributes of Waheguru and realize his grandeur and mercy. It leads to our realization of reality and its acceptance. Guru Granth Sahib further elaborates how realizing God's nature through the recital of his Name leads us to happiness and bliss, rather than being in the wilderness of idol worship or such other meaningless rituals.

*5.Satnam*

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sat_Naam

*Naam | ਨਾਮੁ *



Naam literally means, _the      Name_(singular). A fuller definition of the word can only be found      within the Guru Granth Sahib itself. Naam is God’s _Word_,      or the Divine Essence. Etymologically, the word has a striking resemblance      with the Greek _neumena_ or the Bright Essence as opposed to      phenomena. Naam is not merely the ‘Name of God’ as is commonly believed;      it symbolizes the Being of God filling all Creation. Naam is also referred      to as Shabad      in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
 

Where there was no creation,      there was nothing in existence – no air, light, water, earth or space. God      existed alone in deep meditation and self absorption. When God willed for      the manifestations of his values, He created universes, worlds and all      material and other living beings by uttering a single _Word_. 

     His _Word_ is all pervasive and the sole source of all Creation; the _Word_      created the universes and supports and sustains all things within them.      The Sri Guru Granth Sahib further enlightens      us that God’s Word turned into waves of light, rays of which are present      in all creatures and all other parts of His creation. This is consistent      with a fundamental principle of physics that sound vibrations, when      increased several fold, change into waves of light.
 

This Essence / Naam / Shabad /      Logus is formless, colorless, and featureless but, as said, is present in      all creation. There is no plant, no creature, in what it is not. The Earth      and other heavenly bodies exist because there is Naam in this universe and      when God withdraws this Naam from this Universe, there are natural      calamities (Parloh / Mahaparloh) all over the universe and this is the      time that the universe perishes and all the living creatures perish. 

     Being so, the Essence can’t be seen or visualised by the mind. We can see      only the physical dimension of Reality in God’s Creation – mountains,      plants, trees, creatures etc. Thus the Outer Shell of Reality holds us      (the appearances delude us) and we cannot penetrate deeper to experience      the all pervading Reality. The physical dimensions of Reality (the outer      shell) is always in flux; it keeps changing. While birth, death, creation,      destruction etc. occur in the physical dimensions of creation, the      Essence, being _Sat_ (Sat-Naam) never changes, it transcends space and time.
 

We cannot focus our mind or      attention on God, who is Absolute, the invisible Essence. The Naam      (SHABD), the Name of God is the only medium available to us for      approaching Him.
 

The term Naam refers      to 5 realms / domains / functional groups / aspects / phases of GOD's      CREATION. A human being has to pass through first four realms and finally      be accountable to GOD in the realm of SachKhand      (literally 'TRUE Phase').
 

SachKhand      is perceived to be a realm where GOD seeks account of TRUTHs &      Falsities earned by the soul during one's life. Based on this account, GOD      rules out disposal of each individual soul for times to come. Truthful      souls become part of GOD for ever & never ever get into the cycle of      rebirth.
 

Others not having fared well      & having lived life as per their own(& not as per GOD's      prewritten commandments which accompanied the soul when it was born as      a human being.) will are recycled back to be born again as a 'non human'      being.
 

The soul thereafter stays in      the cycle of death & rebirth as per GOD's Scheme of things. GOD      willing, he gets born as human being again and the soul gets another      chance to fare well this time by staying in harmony with GOD's      commandments through the human life span & so on..
 

TRUE essence of the meaning      of Naam can only be realized by believing in & understanding the      teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.      All who get Naam from the 'Shabad Guru' intuitively discard Falsehood      & earn the wealth of Naam through one's life time. When we earn Naam, our      soul starts responding to it. It is through Naam that we      are able to think of Him, remember Him & live life as per His (&      not our own )WILL (ie: Manmukh v Gurmukh).
 

In other words, the Naam is God      Himself, subjected to our limited powers of perception and thought and to      the capacities of our body and mind. Because we are endowed with the      capacity to utter and attentively listen, the continuous recitation of and      attentive listening to the Naam (Gurbani)      focuses our mind on the object of invocation, resulting in a ceaseless      remembrance of God (DHYAAN). This Dhyaan, in turn, results in complete      absorption of our consciousness on the thought of God, who responds to our      earnest invocation and He reveals Himself in our inner being.
 

The revelation of the      Essence of Reality within us is the revelation of Naam. When the      revelation of Naam occurs within, the devotee sees the Essence of God      pervading throughout His Creation.
 

Gurus have taught that      their teachings are for all the religion ( varnas )and all have the right      to get the teachings of the Gurus.
  To Initiate our soul so that it starts towards the ultimate goal (SACHKHAND) a person has to repeatedly and continuously earn the wealth of Naam, and to cherish it in the heart all the time – this is the essence of prayer and devotion to God. 


In Gurbani,      the word Gurshabad or [[Shabad] is synonymous with Naam. Without      ceaselessly earning the wealth of Naam, God cannot be realised.
 *6. Arm your self with knowledge*
*http://www.info-sikh.com/PageKnow7.html*

First, define Hinduism, there are as many definitions as there are people. 
 Hinduism like Sikhism says that there is only one God but they have lost sight of this, the deities that the Hindus worship represent various attributes of the one God. God has many attributes, such as the creator, destroyer and the cherisher, however, God in Sikhism is Nirankaar. This means that God is without form. God cannot be reduced to thought as revealed in Japji Sahib. (Sochai Soch na Howi Je Sochi Lakh Waar) God in Sikhism is described as Alakh, indescribable, and Apaar, infinite. 
 For an experiment, can someone count to infinite? Impossible.
Guru Granth Sahib Ji reveals that many people have tried to find the limits of the infinite Lord but have failed. Therefore, God is described differently in Sikhism as compared to Hinduism. In Sikhism, God's virtues and attributes are infinite and therefore cannot be counted and summed to equal a whole. In Hinduism, the various deities worshipped represent a particular attribute of god, in Sikhism only the whole is worshipped by acknowledging the vastness of God through the revealed Shabad, or the word of God.
 This is where the concept of Naam comes in, something which does not exist in Hinduism and as such is a fundamental difference between the two faiths. 

 In Sikhism Naam is of the utmost importance, without it no liberation of the soul can take place. 
*What is the concept of Naam in Sikhism: * 
 
Naam is a very deep and integral part of Sikh belief. If one reads the English translation of Naam, it says Name. This is true but does not explain Naam completely. This is because Naam is the essence of God, in Sikhism God is Alakh, unfathomable, Apaar, infinite. Naam is not just the Name, but also, truthful living, truthful speaking, seeing the truth in every single being, breathing the truth, eating truth, totally immersed in the truth. In the first line of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it says ‘SatNaam,’ that God's name is Truth. 
 Naam is also a way of life in Sikhism. 
 Let's do another experiment/demonstration, describe your mother. 
 A mother is someone who feeds you when you are hungry (sustainer), comforts you when you are sad (cherisher), protects you from danger and harm (protector). Now, when someone asks us, who is that woman? We say that is my mother. We do not say, that is the lady that protects me, feeds me, cherishes me, etc. The title of "Mother" is very informative and all the qualities associated with the name are understood without explanation. 
 So it is in Sikhism, the Naam, or the Name is very important. What is that name, SatNaam, the true name. The name is Waheguru, Satnam, Akal Purkh, Kartar, Narain, Nirankar etc. The Name describes the Lord and all the Lord's glorious attributes, infinite in number. Meditation and repartition of the Name brings one closer to the one God and all his attributes. In Sikhism one receives this Naam, from God, or from the Satguru, true guru, the perfect guru or the revealed word of God, Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  baani guru, guru hai baani - The word of God is Guru, and Guru is the word of God.


*Further investigation would be meaningful if some  guidance is provided by Seniors.*



tjs


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 26, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> (The anecdotes you present Tejwant Singh ji are of lazy athletes)



Thanks for being judgemental. Is this part of your parroting routine?

Secondly, the beautiful Shabad you posted has nothing to do with parroting/chanting as you have been advocating like a Mantra.

The Shabad is all about realising, understanding, accepting and putting in practice the Shabad Guru. There is no mystery to it.

You again forgot to share your understanding about this Shabad. I am still waiting for your understanding in your own words about the previous one.

Give it a try or is this your definition of a lazy athlete? 

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 26, 2011)

Taranjeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Some how I have never been able to read your Punjabi fonts. Would you be kind enough to use

http://www.srigranth.org/ for your Gurbani Shabads?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2011)

Gurfateh

Tejwant Singh ji, 

My judgement was not towards you but the people whom you were talking about. Sleeping duing simran counts as lazy in my books. Athletes who sleep during training are as lazy as they get. Haha I hope you were not snoring with them during training. Though it can be good for the mind to be lazy sometimes.



> The Shabad is all about realising, understanding, accepting and putting in practice the Shabad Guru. There is no mystery to it.


Yes realizing, understanding and accepting the mystery is putting the Shabad Guru to practice. Now that we have come this far through intellectual pursuits, it is time to move beyond the intellect (not shun it but go above it and master it) so that we can actually put the shabad guru to practice. Because as you know the practice of Shabad guru is directed at emotions and intuition. It is designed to invoke direct way of knowing things, a direct way of knowing the mystery. 

Mystery lurks behind everything, Tejwant ji, do not let your guard down. Be alert to it.

I have linked several other shabads as well, in that post and I have been sharing my understanding of that shabad the whole time.

Also there is a difference between parroting and chanting that those shabads talk about. Try to see it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ambarsaria ji,
Yes repeating one word (e.g. waheguru, ram, hari) and keeping my attention on it (sometimes a line from a shabad gets stuck in my head for whatever reason then that becomes the mantr I repeat). As I do that I try to expand my awareness to include not only the sounds and the vibrations in my throat, chest and head but also other sounds and sensations and my visual field if my eyes are open. See the first video below.

I don't really chant anything but I do sing along a shabad expanding and contracting my attention as stated above. It has worked for me, you must try it wholeheartedly and find out whether it works for you.

Be sure to check these shabads out if you haven't already: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...th-and-sitting-darbar-sahib-4.html#post156855
The Reptilean Brain, Skinnerian Training & the Experience of God ~ Shinzen Young      - YouTube
Om Mani Padme Hum: Mindful Strategies When Chanting ~ Shinzen Young      - YouTube
10 Minute Sit w. Sangha Chanting Om Mani Padme Hum ~ Shinzen Young      - YouTube

On listening: 
Julian Treasure: 5 ways to listen better      - YouTube
Julian Treasure: Shh! Sound health in 8 steps      - YouTube


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 27, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

My original post:



> I remember when I used to visit the Dodra Vaheguru Jatha many moons   ago, the importance on Vaheguru Simran was the first and the foremost.  There was one hour of loud parroting of Vaheguru at 5 am and then 15  minutes of the silent simran. Once the loud simran stopped, one could  hear more than half the sangat, which was in hundreds snoring and this  was a daily affair. I am sure snoring during simran does not make anyone  mystic.



Your response:



> Haha I hope you were not  snoring with them during training. Though it can be good for the mind to  be lazy sometimes.



Let me take your words for that. However, if I were snoring, then the commonsense would indicate, I would not find out about others who were.  But, anyway, let's move on. The reason I left this practice of parroting/ chanting many years ago because it did not enrich me as a Sikh. 



> My judgement was not towards you but the people whom you were talking  about. Sleeping duing simran counts as lazy in my books. Athletes who  sleep during training are as lazy as they get.



How did you come to the conclusion that they were lazy? It may also show that this practice is boring and not fruitful to say the least for a Sikh,hence the snoring.

My quote:


 <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> 			 				The Shabad is all about realising, understanding, accepting and  putting in practice the Shabad Guru. There is no mystery to it. 			 		</td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
Your response:



> Yes realizing, understanding and  *accepting the mystery* is putting the Shabad Guru to practice.



Once one accepts Gurbani as mystery, then Sikhi becomes one more blind  ritualistic faith with the blinders on and that is what our Gurus teach us not to become in the SGGS.



> Now that  we have come this far through intellectual pursuits, it is time to move  beyond the intellect (not shun it but go above it and master it) so that  we can actually put the shabad guru to practice. Because as you know  the practice of Shabad guru is directed at emotions and intuition. It is  designed to invoke direct way of knowing things, a direct way of  knowing the mystery.



It is just your opinion. Nothing more. It also goes against what our Gurus teach us in Gurbani. 

Gurbani uses many words for us to use our intellect like Dyan, Sambhaal, Mann Rakhieyei bhao, Surat; to state a few.



> Mystery lurks behind everything, Tejwant ji, do not let your guard down. Be alert to it.



Bhagat Singh ji, once again your personal opinion, not based on SGGS, our only Guru.



> I have linked several other shabads as well, in that post and I have been sharing my understanding of that shabad the whole time.



Not the two I requested you for in particular.



> Also there is a difference between parroting and chanting that those shabads talk about. Try to see it.



Please explain the difference using Gurbani as reference words and what are their benefits to become a better Sikh?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 27, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Hence I tend to perhaps little more on understanding before such as chanting.  So when I see people chanting in Gurdwaras like "Waheguru Waheguru .........." I feel bewildered as to whether it is the sheep following the guide, copy analogy to yawning by unconsciously seeing others yawn, etc.,  without having an understanding.  Perhaps it is people just want to rinse their mind by closing eyes and getting out of breath or hyper-ventilating.  If it is enlightenment I will never get it.  But then again it is quite possible I am missing something.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Ambarsaria Ji,

What about children? As kids whether your learning path from classes or your parents... you don't understand it... yes you get literal translations, and your parents tell you its good and out of your trust for them, you follow. You follow blindly and do the act of doing path, simran, seva etc. And you see that it makes them happy. Their approval in turn makes you happy. 

Perhaps it begins with the act itself, whether its intentional or not, whether we have understanding of it or not. Perhaps the acts of simran, seva etc. itself has greater weight than the person performing it. Maybe THAT rubs off on us, influences us...


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2011)

Guru Fateh

Tejwant Singh ji,


> How did you come to the conclusion that they were lazy? It may also show that this practice is boring and not fruitful to say the least for a Sikh,hence the snoring.


Yes the practice is boring only if the Sikh does not connect to God through it, that is, unless the Sikh comes out of the duality of seeing things as interesting and boring, the practice will remain boring. The lazy will not have the drive to go through something as boring as Naam Jaap. Not everyone can become Tiger Woods' equivalent in this field, only those who put 10,000+ hours in training make it through.

If the practice is not for you then it's not for you, move on... or you might have just given up too early.




> Once one accepts Gurbani as mystery, then Sikhi becomes one more blind  ritualistic faith with the blinders on and that is what our Gurus teach us not to become in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


I am not talking about Gurbani as mystery specifically, I am talking about the whole universe as mystery. The mystery that is present underneath what we think we have understood or grasped about the nature of our universe. At the heart of the universe, we find the mystery and to see the mystery is to see God. 

To accept the mystery actually lifts off the blinders, since in order to accept you first need to open your eyes and witness it. Most people have not witnessed it and thus cannot accept it. Accepting is an active effort not one where you give up. No. Accepting is to actively embrace that which is being witnessed.




> Gurbani uses many words for us to use our intellect like Dyan, Sambhaal, Mann Rakhieyei bhao, Surat; to state a few.


All of these have to do with what I am talking about. They all related to emotions and intuition, not intellect (see my definition of intellect in previous posts). All are involved in chanting and not parroting:
Dhyan and surat and sabhaal all mean concentration, meditation, contemplation, etc (these words mean the same thing) --> leads to direct perception of God (_darsan_)
Man rakhieo bhau = let the mind be filled with love --> appeal to emotions --> leads to direct perception of God when doing Bhagati, that is, Naam jaap with love and devotion.
Also see the shabads I posted on the Akhand Paath thread.



> Not the two I requested you for in particular.


Which two shabads do you want me to comment on?


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 27, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Yes the practice is boring only if the Sikh does not connect to God through it, that is, unless the Sikh comes out of the duality of seeing things as interesting and boring, the practice will remain boring. The lazy will not have the drive to go through something as boring as Naam Jaap. Not everyone can become Tiger Woods, only those who put 10,000+ hours in training make it through.



Can you please quote Gurbani to prove what you said above or is it just your own opinion laced with a tinge of arrogance?

Are you claiming that Tiger Woods does not practice anymore? Is that the reason he is number 50th in the world and has not won a tournament for a long time? Or does he practice as before? But the fact is that he is still not successful. What do you think attributes to that? Here you have contradicted yourself about the success of practice. But that is not the point. Spirituality is not a golf game where practicing putting  ballls in a hole avoids one making bogeys in life, especially when the practice is mere parroting/chanting some magical words for 10,000+hours.



> If the practice is not for you then it's not for you, move on... or you might have just given up too early.



Once again you are being judgemental.. Parroting any word for hours is practicing in vain. It has nothing to do with Gurmat values given to us by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,our only Guru. But you keep on insisting on it.



> I am not talking about Gurbani as mystery specifically, I am talking about the whole universe as mystery. The mystery that is present underneath what we think we have understood or grasped about the nature of our universe. At the heart of the universe, we find the mystery and to see the mystery is to see God.



Yes, you were. We were talking about Shabad Guru in particular, not about the Universe.

Your quote:


> Yes realizing, understanding and *accepting the mystery* is putting the Shabad Guru to practice.





> To accept the mystery actually lifts off the blinders, since in order to accept you first need to open your eyes and witness it. Most people have not witnessed it and thus cannot accept it. Accepting is an active effort not one where you give up. No. Accepting is to actively embrace that which is being witnessed.



If one witnesses something, it ceases to be a mystery. Then acceptance becomes the fact. There is no mystery left. The rest of your post is a bit confusing because what one does not know, one can not accept. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji helps us to know and grasp the wow and the awe factors that surround us.

If you accept something as a mystery, then you are putting the blinders on and making Sikhi into one more ritualistic blind faith. Perhaps that is why you insist on parroting/chanting.



> All of these have to do with what I am talking about. They all related to emotions and intuition, not intellect (see my definition of intellect in previous posts).



Please quote Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to prove the above, otherwise they just become your opinions based on your emotions.



> All are involved in chanting and not parroting:



What is the difference between the two as asked before?



> Dhyan and surat and sabhaal all mean concentration, meditation, contemplation, etc (these words mean the same thing)



Agreed. Hence, they have nothing to do with emotions or intuitions as you claimed before.



> --> leads to direct perception of God (_darsan_)



What do you mean by the above. Darshan of a deity? a person? a being? All of which are anti Sikhi. Please quote Gurbani to prove your point or is just one more opinion of yours?



> Man rakhieo bhau = let the mind be filled with love --> appeal to emotions -->



I disagree. Mann rakheio bhao means understanding, accepting and practicing Shabad Guru in one's life to make it better and help others to make their's. Gurbani is showing us how to be a practical, practicing Sikh. It is as straight forward as that. Emotions have nothing to do with it. It is way past the emotional stage.



> leads to direct perception of God when doing Bhagati, that is, Naam jaap with love and devotion.



Are you again talking about parroting/chanting in the above? Please elaborate.

What do you mean by,"leads to direct perception of God"?

Yes. Living a life of Miri-Piri does require devotion. Any profession requires that. Household life requires that. Sikhi can only be practiced by devoting one's energy into whatever one is doing to get better.

Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent. Omnipresence *IS*, hence no perception needed. Facts do not require any perceptions nor any other imaginary things.



> Which two shabads do you want me to comment on?



The two Shabads you posted in this thread.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji,
I have answered all your questions in my previous posts. So anything I do not address here has already been addressed. I have nothing more to add but I can clarify my position where needed. If you have any other questions, please provide your own understanding first so I know where you are coming from.

Tejwant Singh ji if you found a mystery after which it no longer remained a mystery then you did not find mystery. After all if it ceases to be what it was then was it ever a mystery? One can know the mystery and even be fooled into thinking one has intellectually solved it but it can never be intellectually solved, only stated in a different language. Useful and powerful scientific models and other worldly models can be built around it but can never intellectually solve it. A Sikh is to seek and be alert to such a mystery that was a mystery, is a mystery and will continue to be a mystery.

I have contemplated those two shabads and I understand them in the words that they are written in. I would use practically the same words. Let me know which parts I should comment on. I have already commented on the parts that are relevant to this thread. See my previous replies.

रागु गउड़ी पूरबी बावन अखरी कबीर जीउ की
Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī bāvan akẖrī Kabīr jī▫o kī
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Baawan Akhree Of Kabeer Jee:
ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिनामु करता पुरखु गुरप्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯnām karṯā purakẖ gurparsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. By Guru's Grace:
*ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
बावन अछर लोक त्रै सभु कछु इन ही माहि ॥
Bāvan acẖẖar lok ṯarai sabẖ kacẖẖ in hī māhi.
Through these fifty-two letters, the three worlds and all things are described.
ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
ए अखर खिरि जाहिगे ओइ अखर इन महि नाहि ॥१॥
Ė akẖar kẖir jāhige o▫e akẖar in mėh nāhi. ||1||
These letters shall perish; they cannot describe the Imperishable Lord. ||1||*
ਜਹਾ ਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਅਛਰ ਆਵਾ ॥
जहा बोल तह अछर आवा ॥
Jahā bol ṯah acẖẖar āvā.
Wherever there is speech, there are letters.
ਜਹ ਅਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਮਨੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਵਾ ॥
जह अबोल तह मनु न रहावा ॥
Jah abol ṯah man na rahāvā.
Where there is no speech, there, the mind rests on nothing.
*ਬੋਲ ਅਬੋਲ ਮਧਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
बोल अबोल मधि है सोई ॥
Bol abol maḏẖ hai so▫ī.
He is in both speech and silence.
ਜਸ ਓਹੁ ਹੈ ਤਸ ਲਖੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
जस ओहु है तस लखै न कोई ॥२॥
Jas oh hai ṯas lakẖai na ko▫ī. ||2||
No one can know Him as He is. ||2||*
ਅਲਹ ਲਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਉ ਕਹਉ ਤ ਕੋ ਉਪਕਾਰ ॥
अलह लहउ तउ किआ कहउ कहउ त को उपकार ॥
Alah laha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫ā kaha▫o kaha▫o ṯa ko upkār.
If I come to know the Lord, what can I say; what good does it do to speak?
ਬਟਕ ਬੀਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥੩॥
बटक बीज महि रवि रहिओ जा को तीनि लोक बिसथार ॥३॥
Batak bīj mėh rav rahi▫o jā ko ṯīn lok bisthār. ||3||
He is contained in the seed of the banyan-tree, and yet, His expanse spreads across the three worlds. ||3||
*ਅਲਹ ਲਹੰਤਾ ਭੇਦ ਛੈ ਕਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਭੇਦ ॥
अलह लहंता भेद छै कछु कछु पाइओ भेद ॥
Alah lahanṯā bẖeḏ cẖẖai kacẖẖ kacẖẖ pā▫i▫o bẖeḏ.
One who knows the Lord understands His mystery, and bit by bit, the mystery is known.
ਉਲਟਿ ਭੇਦ ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਓ ਪਾਇਓ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਛੇਦ ॥੪॥
उलटि भेद मनु बेधिओ पाइओ अभंग अछेद ॥४॥
Ulat bẖeḏ man beḏẖi▫o pā▫i▫o abẖang acẖẖeḏ. ||4||
Turning away from the world, one's mind is pierced through with this mystery, and one obtains the Indestructible, Impenetrable Lord. ||4||*
ਤੁਰਕ ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
तुरक तरीकति जानीऐ हिंदू बेद पुरान ॥
Ŧurak ṯarīkaṯ jānī▫ai hinḏū beḏ purān.
The Muslim knows the Muslim way of life; the Hindu knows the Vedas and Puraanas.
ਮਨ ਸਮਝਾਵਨ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਕਛੂਅਕ ਪੜੀਐ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੫॥
मन समझावन कारने कछूअक पड़ीऐ गिआन ॥५॥
Man samjẖāvan kārne kacẖẖū▫ak paṛī▫ai gi▫ān. ||5||
To instruct their minds, people ought to study some sort of spiritual wisdom. ||5||
ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਮੈ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
ओअंकार आदि मै जाना ॥
O▫ankār āḏ mai jānā.
I know only the One, the Universal Creator, the Primal Being.
ਲਿਖਿ ਅਰੁ ਮੇਟੈ ਤਾਹਿ ਨ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
लिखि अरु मेटै ताहि न माना ॥
Likẖ ar metai ṯāhi na mānā.
I do not believe in anyone whom the Lord writes and erases.
ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਲਖੈ ਜਉ ਕੋਈ ॥
ओअंकार लखै जउ कोई ॥
O▫ankār lakẖai ja▫o ko▫ī.
If someone knows the One, the Universal Creator,
ਸੋਈ ਲਖਿ ਮੇਟਣਾ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
सोई लखि मेटणा न होई ॥६॥
So▫ī lakẖ metṇā na ho▫ī. ||6||
he shall not perish, since he knows Him. ||6||


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 27, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> Ambarsaria Ji,
> 
> *(Para 1)*What about children? As kids whether your learning path from classes or your parents... you don't understand it... yes you get literal translations, and your parents tell you its good and out of your trust for them, you follow. You follow blindly and do the act of doing path, simran, seva etc. _And you see that it makes them happy. Their approval in turn makes you happy. _
> 
> *(Para 2)* Perhaps it begins with the act itself, whether its intentional or not, whether we have understanding of it or not. _Perhaps the acts of simran, seva etc. itself has greater weight than the person performing it. Maybe THAT rubs off on us, influences us_...


_Navdeep88 ji thanks for your response.  In paragraph 1 you are making your parents happy and in turn you felt happy as they were happy.  Perhaps the reason they were happy is that you are picking up a habit to associate with Gurbani which you will further study, understand and live by one day.

In Para 2 who are you trying to make happy.  The creator does not need you to be happy.  Or such would be very miserable given how few out of 7 billion really care about the creator and do simran.  One day that one's parents may have wished in Para 1 has arrived.  It arrives when we are adults.  So time to move on to "__study, understand and live by" part of the hidden agenda that your parents may have wished .  mundahug

_Parents are tricky, Eh!_
_
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 27, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. The posts show that you have not answered to my specific questions and nor have you clarified the contradictions that I have shown in your posts. Let's leave it like that and move on.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 27, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Tejwant Singh ji,
> Tejwant Singh ji if you found a mystery after which it no longer remained a mystery then you did not find mystery. After all if it ceases to be what it was then was it ever a mystery? One can know the mystery and even be fooled into thinking one has intellectually solved it but it can never be intellectually solved, only stated in a different language. Useful and powerful scientific models and other worldly models can be built around it but can never intellectually solve it. A Sikh is to seek and be alert to such a mystery that was a mystery, is a mystery and will continue to be a mystery.


Bhagat Singh veer if you imply in the above for mystery as (Creator , creation) I would agree.  mundahug  I will try to learn, understand and experience as much as I can in the days so numbered for all of us.

I do note that sometimes the written medium creates bigger divides than there really are.  But that is all we have here as we communicate any way, so be it.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji,
You are right. I have not. I will try again later.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 27, 2011)

Ambarasaria Ji,

hehe, they are quite tricky. 

 But my response was not solely about me, or my experience. It was a response  to your comment about people being like sheep when they do simran. My  point was that usually we learn by doing first, and the  understanding (however it comes) comes later, by God's grace. 

So if someone's acting like a sheep and its in a good, safe, non-harmful context... let them bah-bah-bah all they want. Allow them that, its their journey. Maybe they're just making effort to get a foothold? 




"The creator does not need you to be happy"... I agree Ambarsaria Ji, but the creator WANTS me to be happy, healthy and in good spirits for he's given me people to take care of, responsibilities and things to accomplish. He wants my obedience in prayer, my service. 

But so far, I've let impatience, and not accepting rule me. I've not been very good at what is expected of me.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 28, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> Ambarasaria Ji,
> 
> So if someone's acting like a sheep and its in a good, safe, non-harmful context... let them bah-bah-bah all they want. Allow them that, its their journey. Maybe they're just making effort to get a foothold?


Navdeep88 ji thanks for your post.  I have no issue with people doing what their heart tells them to do.  We are all equal in creation.

At times, there is hurt to see innocent such getting trapped and being fleeced.  One approach would be let it be so, they will learn.  Other is they are our brothers and sisters and help them see if we can.  I take latter approach at times and it is not appreciated by some if not many.  It is my weakness.  mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 29, 2011)

The Mystical Musketeer Bhagat Singh speaks of the _*emergent properties*_ of Shabad ,that is the Naam he talks of ,it is more than the sum of the parts, you cannot reduce it to it's constituent parts which should be Shabad plus Meditation/Intuition. What he talks of is what emerges and that is something novel and so a mystery.
Just as you cannot explain how the same constituent conditions can only sometimes create a _Cyclone_ or just look for any_ Emergence_ in Nature you can't explain lots of things by just adding the constituents. 
Just as we all have neurons that are always firing in the brain but hardly anyone has thoughts emerging that are the same as my Veera.


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 2, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Its like to every naam we have image of person/thing/etc  as object and naam links us to object.

That's way of learning and imbibe.

So for every word of "GURU's BANI" treat as naam and one gets image of "word" and one gets objective behind the formation of word.

The topic is discussed there as "SURAT" or "Imaginative Sense"

A short story 

Once while having computer class, 

Trainer asked "How many wheels have car"

We said 4+1

He said from where are you replying, there is no car inside room,

where you are focused now, it was "imaginative" or "Surat"

from religion and learning it evoked "Surat"

Each and every word treat it as Naam and connect to "Surat" 

to experience truth of words "GURU's BANI"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 2, 2011)

ravneet_sb ji your example is good.  However we need to watch out the use of word "surat",
Teri Pyaari Pyaari Surat - Rajendra Kumar & Saroja Devi -Sasural      - YouTube

Surat in Gurbani is an ever increasing understanding of creation and creator and not just a new image with every word.  It is accumulative and not a disjointed bunch of pictures.  I don't think you meant the latter but just to be on up and up.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 2, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well depiction to clear the meaning of the word "SURAT".
This is the very first Movie which I saw in my childhood that too after running aray from the School.
Any way, in Gurbani the word in Gurmukhi script  is always as  SURAT(i) {with a matra of Sihari}.So this is not a proper Noun as refered in the movie. So you have given the correct meaning to the word used in Gurbani.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 2, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Ambarsaria Ji,

What appears to mind while reciting a word, is Truth, and accepted by self, and reflected as expression.

Accepted "Surat"  what appears while reciting. 

Experience of self while reciting may differ,  

Nice Song.  



Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 2, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Just meditate while reciting word, 
what it evokes as image, 
to what object word connects, and 
what is inside body, which is connecting.

It gives realization of "imaginative sense"


Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 2, 2011)

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Just meditate while reciting word,
> what it evokes as image,
> ...


 
From Gurbani we can learn that just meditateing while reciting the word a single image should be evoked and that image is the very first SYMBOL EKANKAARu and is "REAL IMAGE"

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 2, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> From Gurbani we can learn that just meditateing while reciting the word a single image should be evoked and that image is the very first SYMBOL EKANKAARu and is "REAL IMAGE"
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga ji I totally agree in concept except for the differentiation between* ੴ**as* Ik▫oaŉkār  *vs *EKANKAARu.

I have some additional thoughts and I will share these in the following thread over the next couple of days and I believe mutually we can have a good respectful dialog at that time,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 3, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.s.bagga ji I totally agree in concept except for the differentiation between* ੴ**as* Ik▫oaŉkār *vs *EKANKAARu.
> 
> I have some additional thoughts and I will share these in the following thread over the next couple of days and I believe mutually we can have a good respectful dialog at that time,
> 
> ...


 
I welcome your approach. In fact we should move ahead in this way only
to develop correct understanding  among ourselves as well for messages 
of Gurbani.
I thank you for this  .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Jun 30, 2012)

Is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji mystical ? - Harry ji asks in the 1st post.

Well, may be not, but what makes it special. To someone who is unaware about sikhism, it just seems like a special book. Why do you treat it with so much respect ?-they may ask.

It was as we know started by Guru NanaK ji as a pothi and was then continued for over 200 years before the 10th Guru gave it us as the eternal 11th guru that would continue for eternity!!

I once explained this to a gora who was more than impressed.-
I told him- 
- Well after Guru Nanak started it the following gurus contributed to it, BUT amazingly, in the same near exact fashion and poetic style and with the exact same approach that it all became ONE piece of work but by many people.
The end result is such that it seems like ONE person's hard put effort and not at all by a number of people!!!

In reality, C_ould somene now start a book and pass it on for 200 years and then the end result is such that it all seems like one continous piece of work and seems that it was written by the same person ?- _

-_Answer- NO WAY!!!!_

This is what it is, exactly, the words of the Guru that were passed on from one guru to the other and their contributions were near exact similar in style and method of giving essence. - Infact, we can only tell who contributed what by way of numbers!!!
That shows exactly how humble they were and when endorsing a name in verses they would still use 'Nanak' the orignal contributer!!!!

The gora was amazed when he was informed this. Then I told him, that this also proves the fact that the Gurus were Gurus. The fact that it wasn't just next in line to the 'gadhi' as you would get with thrones for Kings and queens. 
The next one just didn't take the gadhi and speak about what the predecesor endorsed or encouraged- they carried the 'light' or torch that spoke the words of the Guru.-Hence, the words are called Guru's Bani or Gurbani.

I mean just sitting back, and thinking about this for a few seconds, one realises and says 'WOW!!'

I mean, what Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us for eternity still carries that same light that was passed on. He couldn't have given us anything better, this is why it is NOT just a religous book as in other religions. - It is MUCH MORE than that.

The gora could see now that these words it contains are not just spoken words. 
You can call this 'Mysticim' if it explains it better and pleases you.
But I think that mysticism is stll not a strong enough word to describe it. It is much much more than any mystical figures!!!

So Harry ji,  there is my answer about the magic and mysticism!!!
Simply that what we are talking about is beyond and better than that.
 Magic and mysticim are words for describing Harry Potter books...etc...etc

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Archived_member15 (Jun 30, 2012)

Mysticism is the inner dimension of a religion - the heart - which goes beyond outward rituals, creeds and restrictive traditions for a more intimate relationship between God and man. The goal of the mystic is direct experience of God leading to union with the divine and ultimately the loss of self. A mystic is a person who is not concerned with knowing merely the letter of the word, or with only outward religious dogmas, but rather with an intimate knowledge of the Spirit of the Word, of the heart of religion. 

It was described well by Francois Fenelon, a Catholic mystic, 


"...The surest and quickest way is to renounce oneself, forget oneself, abandon oneself, and to take no further thought of oneself except when this is required out of fidelity to God. The whole of religion consists simply in leaving oneself and one's self-love in order to tend to God..." 

*- Archbishop Francois Fenelon (1651 – 1715), Catholic mystic*


A mystic is a lover of God. 

Every religious tradition contains mysticism, to lesser or greater degrees. 

Sikhism, in my opinion, is a very mystical religion (understood in the sense described above). In fact I regard the Guru Granth Sahib ji as containing a distellation of some of the greatest gems of mystic insights into pursuing the path of Union with God, ever committed to poetry!peacesignkaur 


"...Mysticism, according to its historical and psychological definitions,is the direct intuition or experience of God; and a mystic is a person who has, to a greater or less degree, such an experience - one whose religion and life are centered, not merely on an accepted belief or practice, but on that which he regards as first-hand personal knowledge...A mystic is not a person who has queer experiences; but a person for whom God is the one reality of life; the supreme object of love. He is a religious realist. Mysticism, then, far from being abnormal, is an essential part of all religion which is fully and deeply alive; it is the light which the mystics cast on the normal spiritual life, their disclosure of the landscape in which we really live, not their occasional excursions into an abnormal spiritual life, which gives them their great importance..." 

*- Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941), Anglo-Catholic mystic* 


_"...The story of the Catholic mystics is one of an all-consuming, passionate love affair between human beings and God. It speaks of the yearning, a burning desire for the contemplation and presence of the divine…This yearning is a candle lit by the fire of divine love itself, which moves the mystics in their search and leads him, often arduous journeys, to discover and proclaim the all-encompassing love of God for humankind..."_​ 
*- Ursula King, Catholic theologian*​


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 30, 2012)

Vouthon brother thanks for your post.  I have some personal comments as noted from my understanding of Sikhism and our Guru ji's teachings and life styles.





Vouthon said:


> .....  The goal of the mystic is direct experience of God leading to union with the divine and ultimately the loss of self.


_Sikhism does not each direct experience of God rather recognition oneself as part of all creation that is of th e creator._



Vouthon said:


> A mystic is a person who is not concerned with knowing merely the letter of the word, or with only outward religious dogmas, but rather with an intimate knowledge of the Spirit of the Word, of the heart of religion.


_Much to agree with here and in general it is the understanding of creation so that our actions and living are in consonance with all that is around._



Vouthon said:


> "...The surest and quickest way is to renounce oneself, forget oneself, abandon oneself, and to take no further thought of oneself except when this is required out of fidelity to God.


_From what I have learnt or understood Sikhism is not about renunciation but rather ever increasing development and understanding and living thereof._




Vouthon said:


> "...Mysticism, according to its historical and psychological definitions,is the direct intuition or experience of God; and a mystic is a person who has, to a greater or less degree, such an experience - ......"
> 
> *- Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941), Anglo-Catholic mystic*


_In Sikhism Guru ji did not pose as having experienced or having sought the same.  The ever increasing understanding sometimes makes one feel ever more as though one has. _


Vouthon said:


> _"...The story of the Catholic mystics is one of an all-consuming, passionate love affair between human beings and God._*- Ursula King, Catholic theologian*


_From what I understand I believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches to experience Creator through the creation 24/7 and nearest of near and hence the creator._

Just some thoughts to share.  Always great to dialog with you.

Regards.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 30, 2012)

Some very good thoughts.

Infact, I happened to stumble on this thread which was started a while back.

The real reason is that some time ago I was explaining to a gora why our gurbani  is not written in what we call a book. It was in this process of explaining similar to what I stated above in the post that I realised the 'magic like' strength that it had!!! 

It was something that I've just taken for granted like many of us, I mean no one in this day can start something to keep the same style and essence of literature going for 200yrs in so that it appears done by one person only!!!- This is exactly what I realised and the gora was also amazed and mentioned the magic and mysticism in what we have before our eyes!!!

I think we accept and know that in sikhism we don't have such mystiscism or magic in the teachings as such. BUT, to someone like the gora, they can accept and see the power, strength and mysticism in the making of the physically present Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji right before their very eyes!!! 

This again is something I had always taken for granted, like I say it actually defines and explains why the gurus were and are called gurus!

Waheguru


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## Archived_member15 (Sep 11, 2015)

My dear brother Ambarsaria kaurhug

Its great to see you posting again! :grinningkaur: 

As always I find brilliant wisdom in everything that you say which makes me challange my understanding of things and helps me progress on my spiritual journey. 



Ambarsaria said:


> Vouthon brother thanks for your post. I have some personal comments as noted from my understanding of Sikhism and our Guru ji's teachings and life styles.
> _Sikhism does not each direct experience of God rather recognition oneself as part of all creation that is of th e creator._
> 
> *Brother, could that not be seen as 'direct experience'? By the phrase 'direct experience' what I mean to say is, 'a direct conciousness of God in which we feel no separation' between himself and ourselves. I would feel that the very heart of such an 'experience' would be the realization of God's presence in all creation, which leads to us viewing humanity as part of a much bigger 'whole', inseparable from and dependant upon the rest of creation. Twentieth-century spiritual leader, Trappist and Catholic mystic Thomas Merton wrote, “God is everywhere, His truth and his love pervade all things as the light and the heat of the sun pervade our atmosphere. We are called to be mystics, each and every one of us.” That is Catholic mysticism in a nutshell. The experience of God in all things is true spiritual awakening and the very bedrock of the mystical experience/journey. That is what I mean by a intimate and direct experience of God, not in the sense of some kind of supernatural illumination. In fact Catholic mysticim discourages seeking such things. The following is true mysticism: *
> ...


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