# What Does Salvation/Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ) Mean To You As A Sikh?



## Ambarsaria (Jan 21, 2012)

Salvation is much cherished goal sought by many in various religions.  Throughout many threads people have expressed great desire to reach a state of salvation.  This is based on the assumption or belief that we are higher life form born as humans and it is our duty and goall as well as only chance to do so.

  There are many words and phrases that are used to describe the aspects of  ਮੁਕਤੀ/salvation.  Following are some examples,

 

Freedom      from cycle of birth and death
Escape       from the 8,400,000 varieties of life forms and being born again into one
 
Killing of five thieves
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਹੰਕਾਰ ।        /  Lust, Anger, Greed,       Attachment, Ego
Control       of Five thieves
 
Merging      with Akal Purakh/ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ/ Timeless Creator
Our ਜੋਤ/Light       with the creator’s ਜੋਤ/Light (sometimes referred to as ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੋਤ/ Creator’s light)
 
Other
 
What you think and what is the one that you believe in?  Participate in the poll and if you believe in more than one choice do multiple choices as it is allowed in the poll.  mundahug

   Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*

Just to indicate my understanding.  I believe that once one lives in unison with the inner self and outer self, lives in consonance with creation all around and achieves the best one can with the capabilities so blessed with, one has gotten salvation.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Sian Haller (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*

Ambarsaria Veerji

I am not yet a Sikh, but this is my thought on the matter.
These definitions of salvation imply that they are a one off achievement, and once attained are permanent states regardless of future behaviour.I feel salvation is something you achieve on a daily basis through your actions and behaviour and state of mind.Each day your actions affect whether you achieve salvation, to achieve a permanent state of salvation, this behaviour would have to be second nature and carried out without even thought.I believe this would remain an ongoing process and it must be carried out without any question of reward. I would go as far as to say, that true salvation is achieved by not thinking about it, and concentrating on such action becoming second nature. 

I am not enlightened enough to contemplate salvation through freedom of life and death, as I feel this is the only life I will get. 

I feel that in living truly and treating people with respect and consideration is an automatic barrier to the five thieves, to kill them is not enough, they will die through your actions, but to concentrate on decimation is treating the symptom, not the illness

I feel that you only become light on death, and that light burns brighter depending on your daily level of salvation, I think that meditation can certainly bring this merging, but it would take a lot of energy and removal from life, and would only seem to benefit the meditator.However I feel meditation has much use if it is directed at life, rather than escaping life.

These are my own thoughts as a non Sikh, I hope they help.


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## Sian Haller (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*



Ambarsaria said:


> Just to indicate my understanding. I believe that once one lives in unison with the inner self and outer self, lives in consonance with creation all around and achieves the best one can with the capabilities so blessed with, one has gotten salvation.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Veerji,

You have eloquently managed to put across what I was attempting to say in my clumsy mannermundahug


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*



Sian Haller said:


> Ambarsaria Veerji
> 
> I am not yet a Sikh, but this is my thought on the matter.
> These definitions of salvation imply that they are a one off achievement, and once attained are permanent states regardless of future behaviour.I feel salvation is something you achieve on a daily basis through your actions and behaviour and state of mind.....


Sian Haller ji I agree 110% with you.  I did not want to create much bias but let people think and contribute.  I will be ecstatic if we end up to the point described in your post by helping even one person positively, specially the younger ones.

Sat Sri Akal. mundahug

*PS:*  I spot nothing clumsy about your post.  Mine is too dry as a matter of fact.  lol


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## Seeker9 (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*

Dear Ambarsaria Ji, Sian Ji

Fine posts

I would summarise it one word - contentment

I think both of you cited examples that align with this

Basically, there are so many things going on all the time, in your life, in the lives of people close to you, in the lives of people further away from you. And as Sian Ji noted these are daily occurrences

If you can live with all this turbulence around you, acknowledge it, accept it, accept what you are, what you have etc and remain truly contented, then that is a remarkable achievement indeed

Perhaps I should look more into Buddhism....
:singhsippingcoffee:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*

To me MUKTEE is Merging with the Akal Purakh WHILE ALIVE,,so His Gunns..His Attributes Shine through ME..MY Body. Just like when we visit a house ..we cna literally judge form the condition of the house the personality of the house owner..etc..subtle or not so subtle ways...my body is His Harmandar..and my Body should reflect the OWNER/RESIDENT...my ACTIONS..should reflect the Owner resident...the more i reflect HIM..the more "mukt" I am..

The Mother feels so happy and FULL upon seeing her child be happy and eat food...I feel happy and full seeing my dogs eat the BEST foods.......I am sure HE feels happy to see ME eating the Best foods that this earth can provide !...I am just a visible physical "extension" of HIM...and I get more and more MUKT by the passing hour...


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*

Ambarsaria Ji,

I dont know about how many lifetimes, or about my five thieves... nor have I really... all I know is that I was taught to serve, that is someone really needs help, you must help them. You must be of service to others, you must help others. That's it. 

I don't know what will come to be, but at the moment, I hope it is somewhat sufficient for Him, as He watches over me... I hope He is somewhat proud of what I've done with this life so far, I know my shortcomings are immense... I'm stubborn, sometimes stupid... but I hope He will redeem me, guide me with love to become a more understanding being... to live the life He's planned for me in the best way. 

("He" refers to Guru Ji.) 

yes yes I cut my hair, I'm a horrible person, but I still believe I have a relationship with my Guru... and plan to always. The course of my "Sikhi" is in Waheguru's hands.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*

Ambarsariaji, 

I am more with Gyaniji, tuning into essence of Creator, Creator being the only voice in your head, I would call it Sachkhand, where the thieves fade away, but to concentrate on eradication of the thieves is pointless, speaking personally, my thieves are extremely strong, they have led me to addiction to almost every pleasure, and now they must pull me to Sachkhand, to me, Sachkhand is a state of mind of contentment that allows one to achieve salvation through pure actions and thoughts, achieved only through finding that frequency from which the voice of Creator booms loud and clear


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## Taranjeet singh (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: What does  salvation / Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ)  mean to you as a Sikh?*



Ambarsaria said:


> Salvation is much cherished goal sought by many in various religions.  Throughout many threads people have expressed great desire to reach a state of salvation.  This is based on the assumption or belief that we are higher life form born as humans and it is our duty and goall as well as only chance to do so.
> 
> There are many words and phrases that are used to describe the aspects of  ਮੁਕਤੀ/salvation.  Following are some examples,
> 
> ...



A great question Ambarsaria ji,

Mukti and liberation means different to all of us. It may have shades of colors as nicely summed up by you in your posts. It requires no reiteration. Liberation , to me , has some specific connotations. It is believed that Mukti is the state when one is dead when alive and has no Haume and has overcome lower passions and has developed higher virtues with His grace. It may be life time practice culminating into that we may ordinarily call 'Salvation'. One lives for others and has little interest in self welfare as one has left oneself to be taken care of by the Almighty. It may be high sounding, but it is the way I feel and try to practice. In sense I am with you, Gyani ji and Harry ji and others like navdeep88 ji.

I am also aware that salvation is also to be obtained by 'Simran' as well that is the only mode available to keep 'self- connect'. 'Simran' is also a life time affair. It is with great efforts and patience that one attains this. It is why I call _'Akhan Aukha Sacha nao'. _It shall come to one who really feels the need of it. One may not  carve out the need. I was not bothered about this about 2 years back. But now it has become an integral part of my life. 

One need not be bothered about the results. It is a means of progression in life culminating into self perfection and finally absorption with the super consciousness. It is my idea of Mukti or liberation. 

But does it really matter? 
If my living is truthful and I do that is to be done I am not bothered at the end. Rest is His grace and Nadar. It is upto Him. It is not my business and I do not do any Ardas of any kind ; He knows everything... 

With Regards


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 24, 2012)

Mukhti to me is a release from the wrath from senile, hateful old men... who feel they're in a position to put you in this box or that...who shamelessly insult others, with the intent of hurting their heart... pffft, thats right Ambarsaria, I'm talking to you.


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 24, 2012)

The following may be of some use to you, coincidently it just came out today...

From Judgement to Compassion (à¨ªà©°à¨œà¨¾à¨¬à©€ à¨µà¨¿à©±à¨š)      - YouTube


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 24, 2012)

Navdeep88 said:


> Mukhti to me is a release from the wrath from senile, hateful old men... who feel they're in a position to put you in this box or that...who shamelessly insult others, with the intent of hurting their heart... pffft, thats right Ambarsaria, I'm talking to you.


Sorry Navdeep88 ji if it hurt you but a dead child lying in front of parents just is not a place to say it happens everywhere.  At least that is how I feel.  Such passion in such situations is my weakness and it perhaps has little chance of remedying itself.

Your insulting is OK if it makes you feel better, I am happy for you.  I will not respond in kind no more perhaps it was a mistake when I originally did.  Let us part where we disagree as the world is not about you or me going back and forth.peacesign

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 24, 2012)

I have seen LOTS of "sikhs" who do lots of simran...of NIRBHAU....but on their wrists they tie RED strings ( they are AFRAID of certain shaktees/powers/bad spirits/evil ??? didnt quite become NIRBHAU !!)...then again many do simran of NIRVAIR..but will BITE OFF THE HEAD of anyone doing tiny bit of "criticism"...like Dhadrianwallh exploded at Babbu mann for singing Ek baba nanak See...so didnt quite become NIRVAIR either...this is parrotting..not simran if it ahs no effect on you..Kabir calls this Rirrking Water to get GHEE....ha ha no amount of rirrking water will get ghee or even GREASE lol..........


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## Admin (Jan 24, 2012)

*Admin Warning: Dear All, if you do not have anything to add to the discussion, then simply refrain from posting at all... Thank you!*

Gurfateh!


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 24, 2012)

Aman Singh Ji,

This man personally and volatiley insulted me, thats not OK! He went way off the issue... all with some stupid assumption about how I was apathetic, when all He needed to do was scroll up and SEE my original response to that picture, it wasnt exactly apathetic. 

But I suppose that totally ok, some people can speak to others however they want, take a jab at them however shamelessly, and it will be tolerated? really? I had no idea this was what this forum was about? I didn't know it was an accepted practice here to STOMP on others... that's anti-Sikh. you're not supposed to go around pillaging others under any circumstance... 

Goodday!

I think the folowing should be added to forum rules:
Some members can speak to others hatefully, can insult them in every way possible all with the assumption that they know who they are... and that is tolerated. accepted practice...


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 25, 2012)

Actually I've decided that all of what Ambarsaria Ji said in the other posts, I will discard it b/c according to him I was written off for life, useless, heartless... all this without ever having met me, without knowing me personally. lol 

with every hurt, every loss, this heart's gonna get stronger. thank you for my most recent hurt.kudihug


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 25, 2012)

mundahug That's the spirit Navdeep ji. Give others some space for their behaviour whether desirable or undesirable. When negative emotions arise give them space to be. Speak out but with that space. Mukti is this space when it encapsulates everything that arises. You become this space, grow as this space. In this space all births and deaths are dissolved, all thieves are dissolved, one becomes the all-encapsulating space that is God.


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 25, 2012)

thank you for that reflection bhagat singh ji!


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## Harry Haller (Jan 25, 2012)

Navdeepji, 

You must remember as we get older, we get more used to our heart being hurt, when I was your age, I was in a constant state of hurt, everybody hurt me, my parents, my girlfriend, my friends, looking back, I cannot even remember what it feels like to be hurt anymore, age has numbed the ability to be hurt. However it is easy for us older members to forget how sensitive we all were when we were younger. I have no idea what posts you are referring to, or what was said, but clearly your feelings have been hurt, and surely part of salvation is to recognise when we have hurt others and try and put it right, please also try and recognise the difference between inflamed passion and downright cruelty, I do feel it was the former, and if you can tell the difference at a young age, you will go far, as you will find your strings being less pulled as you mature and grow. 

Bhagat Singhji, Your post describes death as far as I am concerned, salvation is an understanding and requires discipline and effort, not aloofness and detachment, through this understanding, we grow, till we are enlightened and wise, rather than unfeeling and floating, we are after all meant to be householders and I think sometimes you forget that

Ambersariaji, What Navdeepji has stated is water off a ducks back to you, but what you have stated has clearly caused much upset, I think as we get older the saying treat others as you wish to be treated should read, treat others as you would wish to be treated if they were you at that stage in life

mundahugpeacesign


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 25, 2012)

Harry Ji,

I'm sorry to say this, but its water off this duck's back too. I've been severly depressed, have been in a state where I was completely defeated and suffering... couldn't muster enough to get out of my room at months at a time... I've been through that, so when someone tries to hurt me... I don't hold onto it for too long. 


And Ambarsaria Ji, 

I'm so sorry for what you experienced/witnessed. But you twisted and turned my comment... one only needs to look at... oh, i dont know... something called the HOLOCAUST to recognize that this kind of suffering and injustice IS everywhere. Even in Canada, looking back to Reservation schools for First Nations by the Canadian government (they make up a very large part of the prison population here as a consequence of those oppressive experiences)... to recognize that this sort of oppression is universal. Now maybe I feel this way b/c I've grown up in a multicultural society... but I feel the suffering of Sikhs, is EQUAL to the suffering of other groups of people... everybody's equally human, and these human rights violation, occuring anywhere in the world are just as bad. 

Now where you got this idea that I was somehow apathetic or oblivious to the story at hand... I have no idea. 

And as a result of your assumption, you flamed me pretty bad. But that's alright, over it. 

Time to move onto other things in life! good luck and good bye.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 25, 2012)

I must be getting senile...because I never seem to see when the "swords" come out...until the SPN ADMIN issues  anotice in RED..oh my..i miss so much...or are those swords imaginary ones...?? god knows..why we are so ultra sensitive..and get offended so fast..SEHAJ is the most difficult trait to cultivate guys..but its the BEST...
Please be always in Sehaj...I LOVE each one...i cnat see anyone get hurt or feel hurt here..spn is our family..we all sink or swim together...Bhul Chuk maaf Jios..Gurparsaad to wards all...


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 25, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji it will be instructive to read the thread when it is brought out again (I believe it is off line right now) and see if you can help at least me.  I want to manage what I wrote and the degree to which you think I was out of line.  I don't ask for this to prove anything or prove me right just as a sounding board beyond the parties directly impacted.  To ensure it does not re-escalate you can post your stuff privately.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 25, 2012)

Sincerest and very heavy apologies for any hurt feelings caused.... now or in the course of me having been here. I know at times I can be a little much... 

now its time to head to life and take care of things... as they desperately need it... thank you and I love you all. take care.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 25, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Bhagat Singhji, Your post describes death as far as I am concerned, salvation is an understanding and requires discipline and effort, not aloofness and detachment, through this understanding, we grow, till we are enlightened and wise, rather than unfeeling and floating, we are after all meant to be householders and I think sometimes you forget that


Harry ji,
You are on the right track. Death of the mind made self is what we are looking for. This is mukti. We are looking to dissolve the mind made sense of self that is separate from the environment. It is called _Haumai_ in Eastern Philosophy. Death of _haumai_ is a very beautiful event for the individual.it is the best thing that can happen to them. It liberates them. When this happens the individual becomes _Jivan mukt_. (I think we talked about this last summer)

The understanding comes from dissolving this false sense of self. It requires discipline and effort. A discipline and effort which leads to detachment to false notions of self. Through this understanding, we grow, continue to gain enlightenment and wisdom. We become more sensitive but at the same time we are not as bothered by the experiences as a consequence of that sensitivity, namely heightened empathy and emotions. This heightened empathy is what lead Guru Arjan Dev ji to treat lepers and Guru Nanak Dev ji to hug an untouchable. The feeling of not being bothered by experiences can be witnessed in Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyrdom. In addition, two of the Guru Sahibs have known to have gone off to meditate in solitude - Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur ji. (haha shameless attempt to get you to meditate)

Nothing is more useful in a household than this death of mind made sense of self. In fact, it is more useful when you live with others than it is for someone who lives by themselves. It comes down to the space I was talking about with Navdeep ji.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 25, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> The understanding comes from dissolving this false sense of self. It requires discipline and effort. A discipline and effort which leads to detachment to false notions of self. Through this understanding, we grow, continue to gain enlightenment and wisdom. We become more sensitive but at the same time we are not as bothered by the experiences as a consequence of that sensitivity, namely heightened empathy and emotions.


BhagatSingh veer thanks for your post.  Some very interesting thoughts indeed.

One thing I have been thinking is who will know the salvation/mukti state?  Is it the person who is in it or the persons that interacts with such person.  As they say it is pretty hard to be "Judge and Jury".   

So with the assumption that one cannot be a judge of such in oneself, when you talk or write about it how you conclude definitively what it is?  It appears like Catch-22 to me!  There is also an implicit danger in declaring someone to be "Mukt/receiving salvation" by others.  Isn't this part of the fallacy in creation of Babeys, Sants and some Pakhandis.

Now since there is no measurable standard, one having achieved is not going to be talking about the Mukti/Salvation state.  How could those who never got to Mukti/salvation so describe?   For example you are describing and I was wondering if you are reading and reporting or experiencing and reporting?

This kind of Catch-22 always very well described by the often referred Monty Python's skit as follows,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 25, 2012)

Yes Ambarsaria ji,
It is only an assumption you have made, and a false one. One can judge one's progress like one can judge their progress in sports, for example. What we are talking about is no different. It is moral athleticism (coined by Sam Harris). Tiger Woods of morality will know his skill in morality as the Tiger Woods of golf knows his skill in golf. We learn and grow and we can see we are growing. It's the same with morality (and liberation).

The fallacy is in placing all Babeys and Sants in the same box and naively simplifying the whole issue into a black and white thing (thinking one is either a _mukt_ or not). Indeed not all coaches will be able to teach you basketball equally well and not all coaches maybe good players but there are good coaches out there. Only by learning from them and measuring one's progress can one know if they are good coaches or not. This reminds me of a conversation we have previously had. Here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ferent-to-reading-horoscope-5.html#post156920

_Mukti_ is like basketball. One might shoot and miss but if all factors for getting the ball in to the net are in place (eg. proper form, angle, force, etc) then the ball will go into the net. A player-in-training is trying to perfect each of those factors, so he can miss less often and get the ball into the net more often. _Mukti_ appears to me to be like that. A skilled _Mukt_ remains in the state of _mukti_ *more often* than an unskilled one. His attempts to ground himself in tough situations (similar to the attempts of Michael Jordan shooting the ball) are successful more often. Meditation is one of these factors like form, angle or force. It is not the only factor but certainly an important one. One must also listen to spiritual wisdom, contemplate spiritual texts, develop a daily discipline of waking up early and training for a Sikh specifically (like a basketball player does), get out there and do good deeds, develop certain virtues like compassion, truthfulness, etc.

Of course, grounding oneself is not the only thing a Michael Jordan of morality does. A basket ball player moves around the court dribbling the ball and dodging incoming players. Michael Jordan of morality also does other things, see the other Ashtpadees on Brahm Gyanis in Sukhmani Sahib.




> For example you are describing and I was wondering if you are reading and reporting or experiencing and reporting?


Both. They are complementary.

These states of _mukti_ are described very well in spiritual texts. They describe Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods of morality. Only one who is liberated can understand them fully but for those of us who are not at that level, we can see what we should be aiming for. 

E.g. in Sukhmani Sahib this state is described. (I attest with some experience)
ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥
असटपदी ॥
Asatpaḏī.
Ashtapadee:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरलेप ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirlep.
The God-conscious being is *always unattached*,

ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲ ਅਲੇਪ ॥
जैसे जल महि कमल अलेप ॥
Jaise jal mėh kamal alep.
as the lotus in the water remains detached.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਦੋਖ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरदोख ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirḏokẖ.
The God-conscious being *is always unstained*,

ਜੈਸੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕਉ ਸੋਖ ॥
जैसे सूरु सरब कउ सोख ॥
Jaise sūr sarab ka▫o sokẖ.
like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी कै द्रिसटि समानि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏarisat samān.
The God-conscious being *looks upon all alike*,

ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਜ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੁਲਿ ਪਵਾਨ ॥
जैसे राज रंक कउ लागै तुलि पवान ॥
Jaise rāj rank ka▫o lāgai ṯul pavān.
like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਏਕ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी कै धीरजु एक ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏẖīraj ek.
The God-conscious being has a *steady patience*,

ਜਿਉ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕੋਊ ਖੋਦੈ ਕੋਊ ਚੰਦਨ ਲੇਪ ॥
जिउ बसुधा कोऊ खोदै कोऊ चंदन लेप ॥
Ji▫o basuḏẖā ko▫ū kẖoḏai ko▫ū cẖanḏan lep.
like the earth, which is dug up by one, and anointed with sandal paste by another.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਇਹੈ ਗੁਨਾਉ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी का इहै गुनाउ ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā ihai gunā▫o.
This is the quality of the God-conscious being:

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਵਕ ਕਾ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਉ ॥੧॥
नानक जिउ पावक का सहज सुभाउ ॥१॥
Nānak ji▫o pāvak kā sahj subẖā▫o. ||1||
O Nanak, his inherent nature is like a warming fire. ||1||

You won't know what is means to be unattached, have a steady patience or what it means to look at everyone alike until you meditate and lose your sense of self if only for a minute.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 25, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Yes Ambarsaria ji,
> It is only an assumption you have made, and a false one. _One can judge one's progress_ like one can judge their progress in sports, for example. What we are talking about is no different.


Veer BhagatSingh ji thanks for the response.

The progress part I can totally agree with you.  It is the end point that I was not sure of as to what and how such end point is definable and by whom!  If it is simply a state of being then it becomes wrong to seek mukti as if it is forever undefinable then its state has infinite variations.  What is infinite in Sikhism, one creator!  

So it comes around to the core message in SGGS of trying to understand the creator as much as you can and live accordingly without the definition or seeking of an end point.  First line says creator is infinite and nothing in SGGS tries to put it in a box or makes it bounded in limits.

Any thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 25, 2012)

The end point is death defined by those who died. :sippingcoffeemunda: Now based on how much the Gurus have died they can extrapolate to what it would look like if you died completely. E.g a completely dead person is the most patient of all.

You are right to say to not seek an end point. To seek a goal then takes one away from meditation. But then again Bhagat Kabeer used to meditate in cremation grounds.



> If it is simply a state of being then it becomes wrong to seek mukti as if it is forever undefinable then its state has infinite variations. What is infinite in Sikhism, one creator!


Please clarify this point.



> without the definition or seeking of an end point.


The definition sheds light on the phenomenon for those who have no experience with it. Humans need definitions to show them the way, otherwise there would be no need of Gurus or Granths. The definition is not the reality however it is only pointing to it.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> If  it is simply a state of being then it becomes wrong to seek mukti as if  it is forever undefinable then its state has infinite variations. What  is infinite in Sikhism, one creator!
> 
> _Please clarify this point._


_Veer BhagatSingh by your description one is always progressing in Mukti/Salvation.  To me that is the same as understanding if not the complementary duality of it.  You are  zeroing out while understanding is maxing out without actually becoming zero or infinite.

For me Mukti is much like an achievement almost to the point that the given Gene pool has created the best example of one for time immemorial.  How many such happen.  Very few so the rest continue till the bloom of best again happens.  In a perverse way I find like Einestein Mukt in a positive way in spite of the bomb!  Many of the other greater people so too.  The negative Mukts will be like Hitler, hopefully he was mukt so we don't see more like him.
_ 
What you think!  For sure little extreme ramblings.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 26, 2012)

Gurfatehji

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am beginning to get an inkling of how this concept can be integrated in my life, I believe we live a lifetime in a day.....

I do not want to die, I like being me, I really am not keen on losing everything I have built up over the years to enter into a deathlike state, I am not sure this was the ultimate message of our Gurus. However if we take each day, and if for certain periods during the day, I die, and become nothing, I would have no objection to that, if during this period, I could behave as Bhagatji described above, then, again, I would not find that objectionable in the least. 

Today is all we have Jios, and we can find Mukti today, through whatever means we can, through meditation, through Seva, through our connection with God/Creator, interaction with Creation, to love Creation, care about Creation as if it were bonded with us, as if the whole universe was in tune with us, and we could play in the Milky Way, run naked on Mars, skate round the rings of Saturn, every day we get the chance to love, and not hurt, to help, not hinder, to support, not oppose. However we are human, this state if it lasted forever, would be death for me, but to wish to achieve this state on a daily basis, as well as enjoy life, and the joys that life bring, the pleasures that exist in Creation, whether it be smelling a rose, eating a pizza, or ahem other things, enjoy them, embrace them, live every day as if it were your last, as if tomorrow did not exist, attain the balance between Mukti and Life, no I do not find this concept objectionable at all


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes Ambarsaria ji, that sounds right.

Hmm no Hitler is not considered a Mukt by Sikh reasoning. As per his actions he will be trapped in reincarnation through many _joons_ until he gets to the human _joon_ in which he will have a chance again at liberation. He was a horrible moral athlete. Einstein is not a good moral athlete either though not as bad as Hitler. He had many affairs while he was married. An example of a good moral athlete would be someone like Mother Teresa who was a mother to millions. She treated the sick. I think her modern equivalent would be Amma from South India, who goes around hugging random people in their thousands and relieves their suffering. She is a huge open space.

Mukti *is* life. Harry ji, wonderful post but I want to clarify this point. Like how some folks are good at art, some are great scientists, there exists a group of people who are great at living a good life. In the west we don't value them as much but in the east, such people were treated with such respect that people would bow down in their presence (I'm talking about Gurus and Sants). They found out ways to live life to the fullest and found ways to create an environment for others to live it to their fullest. The concept of mukti fits into this framework. It is not opposed to life. Far from it. It is life itself when lived as good as life can be lived.

One who lives life in such a way is a good moral athlete. He rids himself of his own unnecessary suffering (which is most suffering out there) and becomes a cold fire for others and burns their suffering (See the examples in above post). This is one of the roles of a Guru or a Sant. In the west, they say "Jesus died for your sins". He did.

As you may have now figured, these moral athletes tend to have crazy fans. Lol


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 27, 2012)

Bhgat singh ji..Have you read the books that expose Mother Theresa as friend of people like the Doc of haiti who ate humans...and much more  with documented evidence...


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## Harry Haller (Jan 27, 2012)

I think all babas and mother Theresa's start off with best intentions, they just cannot deal with the fact that people see God through them and end up full of ego and pride

From what I know Mother Theresa had quite a harsh regime, yet had did not quite embrace it herself


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## Archived_member15 (May 5, 2012)

My dear brother Ambarsaria ji peacesignkaur

This is a fantastic idea for a thread and I am sorry that I wasn't yet an SPN'er when you created it! 

In the poll, I selected: "_Merging with Akal Purakh/ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ/ Timeless Creator". _

_I regard this as essentially the goal of the seeker in every rich spiritual tradition of note. We must aim to come to a state where we crucify our ego, die to ourselves and become one with the Will of God - live in the Divine Will. _

_Union of wills, union of spirit, union of love, union of Being - we become God by grace, just as he is by nature. At the same time, we become aware that our substance, the human spirit, the ground of our soul is a Divine Spark which is always at one with Creator, even when our sensuality - our lower self - wanders away from God and becomes absorbed in ego. _


The best description though, that I have personally seen of salvation comes from Meister Eckhart (who else?): 


"...This, then, is salvation, when we marvel at the beauty of created things and praise the beautiful providence of the Creator or when we purchase heavenly goods by our compassion for the works of creation...This path of which I have spoken is beautiful and pleasant and joyful and familiar. Let whoever has found this way seek no other and you shall find that God who is whole and entire will possess you whole and entire..." 


_- Meister Eckhart __(1260-1328) (Sermon 30), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest_ 



Its a very simple, earth-honouring, creation-centered view of salvation without any of the complex thinking I have just provided on Union with God - and for me that's what makes it so meaningful, profound and ultimately _true_.


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## Archived_member15 (May 5, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Bhgat singh ji..Have you read the books that expose Mother Theresa as friend of people like the Doc of haiti who ate humans...and much more with documented evidence...


 
My dear brother Gyani :sippingcoffeemunda:

Blessed Mother Theresa, in my own opinion, was a very beautiful soul, a devout and godly woman. There is a statue of her in the centre of the state of Punjab, I do believe holding her up as an exemplar of _seva. _

I would be wary of rumours made to discredit people. I do know that some tried to defame her by bringing up the kinds disreputable types such as the Duvalier gang in Haiti whom she "reportedly" - if you believe journalists and the late atheist thinker Christopher Hitchens - was kind too or even took donations from to feed the poor, but who are they too judge? They aren't the ones out in the streets helping starving Indians and there isn't conclusive proof of these allegations. And yet even if it were true - and I personally believe it isn't - nobody is without fault, but it certainly doesn't descredit all of the great good she did for her fellow human beings which is far more than the average person could ever achieve in a lifetime. 

I will always defend the purity of that Blessed woman.


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## Ambarsaria (May 5, 2012)

Vouthon brother thanks for the post.

Meister Eckhart one wonderful soul and much of likeness to Sikhism in his quotes that you share.

How wonderful and I re-quote from your post,



> "...This, then, is salvation, when we marvel at the  beauty of created things and praise the beautiful providence of the  Creator or when we purchase heavenly goods by our compassion for the  works of creation...This path of which I have spoken is beautiful and  pleasant and joyful and familiar. Let whoever has found this way seek no  other and you shall find that God who is whole and entire will possess  you whole and entire..."



Regards._  mundahug
_


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