# Understanding The Journey Of The Devotees Of The Lord



## pk70 (Jan 4, 2009)

*Understanding Journey of the Devotees of the Lord*

*Gurvinder janu Ji* has posted a Shabad(discussed in detail below)  on a separate thread “What Is Your New Year Resolution”, it addresses half of the Sikhi principles. If attention is paid, one can realize that Fifth Nanak is stressing on Lord’s Ordinance according to which we are bound regardless our claims about our intellectual force. In JapJi Sahib, it is made clear that only through knowing His Hukam one can sculpture oneself to be free of that force exists within that leads to nothing but unending miseries in different forms. Now let’s reread Guru Shabad to understand the Guru Message and its broad application.
*॥ **ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਹੋਵਣਾ **॥  (SGGS 523)*
*Ji▫o ji▫o ṯerā hukam ṯivai ṯi▫o hovṇā*
*As, as is Thy command, so, so does it happen *
*ਜਹ ਜਹ ਰਖਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਹ ਜਾਇ ਖੜੋਵਣਾ **॥*
*. **Jah jah rakẖėh āp ṯah jā▫e kẖaṛovaṇā. *
*Wheresoever Thou Thyself keepst me, there I go and stand.( means we are where you keep as per your Ordinance) *

   In Jap Ji, Guru ji says
*ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ **॥**੨**॥ **Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko▫e. **Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2|| *
*All are subject to His fiat and none is exempt from His fiat. **O Nanak! if man were to understand Lord's fiat, then no one would take pride (speak in ego). * 
   All are subjected to His Ordinance, so to understand His hukam is very vital, that is why Guru ji says, if His ordinance is understood, “ego force” ceases to exist. In this very Shabad also Guru ji points at the same vital point
*॥ **ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਪਛਾਤਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਰੋਵਣਾ **॥*
*Jinĥī pacẖẖāṯā hukam ṯinĥ kaḏe na rovṇā*
*They, who recognize(means understand) Lord's will, weep not ever.*
  The origin of most of the problems lies in the ego; actually it is the ego that keeps us separated from Him. Game of ego is all about pleasing our own “self”, the moment one stops pleasing it, world looks different. As long as we keep indulged in satisfying it, many things are done. Many times we feed others ego to feed our own ego. No wonder Guru ji stresses on taking all good and bad equally as His Will. When individual ego is gone, who is left?  Isn’t it the Lord only? Let’s see how this fact is shared by the real devotees of the Lord
*ਜਬ**ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ**ਤਬ ਤੁਮ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੁਮ ਹਹੁ ਹਮ ਨਾਹੀ **॥(SGGS 339)
**Jab ham ho**ṯ**e **ṯ**ab **ṯ**um nāhī ab **ṯ**um hahu ham nāhī.
**When I was, then You were not; now that You are, I am not.
**ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ*
*More of it*
*ਜਬ**ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ**ਤਬ ਤੂ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੂਹੀ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ **॥(SGGS  657)
**Jab ham ho**ṯ**e **ṯ**ab **ṯ**ū nāhī ab **ṯ**ūhī mai nāhī.
**When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.
**ਭਗਤ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ*
So the cries are caused by the ego. When His ordinance is understood, ego is annulled.
Let’s go back to the Shabad. In next Guru Vaak, hint is to take mind to the Master whose Ordinance binds us. When ego is negated, meditating on His name becomes a coating of the soul that protects from Maya filth. It washes what was there due to ego and keeps it clean forever. Why? The real culprit ego is gone.
॥ ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੈ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਧੋਵਣਾ ॥ ਜਪਿ ਜਪਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਖੋਵਣਾ 
Nām ṯerai kai rang ḏurmaṯ ḏẖovṇā. Jap jap ṯuḏẖ nirankār bẖaram bẖa▫o kẖovṇā
. With the love of Thy Name, I wash off my evil intellect. By continuously meditating on Thee, O formless Lord, my doubt and dread are dispelled
There are illusions created by ego, under its influence, there is duality created by intellectual force, by understanding His Ordinance, ego is voided, then the intellect serves in positive way instead of creating illusions and duality. There is none but Him in the picture. The soul is attracted by the gravity of His love because all other elements that could hinder are gone. This is the second stage Guru ji pointing out.
We go through existences because we are separated from Him and remain a part of His creation, when we merge with Him, this cycle ends, soul stills within Him. Please read on:
ਜੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਜੋਵਣਾ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਨੈਣ ਅਲੋਵਣਾ ॥
. Jo ṯerai rang raṯe se jon na jovṇā. Anṯar bāhar ik naiṇ alovaṇā.
. They, who are imbued with Thine affection are not yoked to  existences. Within and without(means out side), they see the one Lord with their eyes.
 When ego is annuled, intellect becomes helpful. what has been remained to see after that? Answer is” the all pervading Lord” There is no conflict in reality; it is created by us in all cases. The conflict creating force ceases to exist, the true devotees see Him in good as well as bad. The ones, who are exposed to duality and ego, may laugh at it but they will never understand what they are missing.
Aim is clear, mind is set on it
*॥ **ਨਾਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਰੋਵਣਾ **॥**੧੮**॥ *
*Nā▫o Nānak bakẖsīs man māhi parovaṇā. ||18|| *
*Nanak, they attain the Name's gift, which they string into their mind.*
  We waste life in conflicts by creating them and in efforts to win them, contrary to this, the real devotees of the Lord, are progressed so advance, they enjoy being in love with the Lord. There is nothing that blossom in their hearts but love for Him. Of course Lord’s grace completes the journey. By understanding His Ordinance, as ego disappears, miracle happens within.




G Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2009)

*Re: Understanding Journey of the Devotees of the Lord*

pk70 ji

A great topic with your usual way to tease the deeper meaning from the words. From the wonderful puzzle-poetry of Sant Kabir comes the idea that the journey is not subject to the rules of "ordinary reality." The journey runs along a path that contradicts our experiences in ego and intellect. The journey is taken without travelling and the only map that works to find the path is given by the True Guru. 

ਜਾਗਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਬਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ॥ 
jaagath sovath bahu prakaar ||
There are many ways of being awake, and sleeping.
  
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਗੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
guramukh jaagai soee saar ||
To be awake as Gurmukh is the most excellent way.
  
 ਇਸੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਕੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਕਾਮ ॥ 
eis dhaehee kae adhhik kaam ||
The most sublime of all the actions of this body,
  
 ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਜਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ॥੩॥੨॥ 
kehi kabeer bhaj raam naam ||3||2||
says Kabeer, is to meditate and vibrate on the Lord's Name. ||3||2||
  
 ਜੋਇ ਖਸਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ 
joe khasam hai jaaeiaa ||
The wife gives birth to her husband.
  
 ਪੂਤਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਖੇਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
pooth baap khaelaaeiaa ||
The son leads his father in play.
  
 ਬਿਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਵਣਾ ਖੀਰੁ ਪਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ 
bin sravanaa kheer pilaaeiaa ||1||
Without breasts, the mother nurses her baby. ||1||
  
 ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਗਾ ਕਲਿ ਕੋ ਭਾਉ ॥ 
dhaekhahu logaa kal ko bhaao ||
Behold, people! This is how it is in the Dark Age of Kali Yuga.
  
 ਸੁਤਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਈ ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
suth mukalaaee apanee maao ||1|| rehaao ||
The son marries his mother. ||1||Pause||
  
 ਪਗਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਹੁਰੀਆ ਮਾਰਤਾ ॥ 
pagaa bin hureeaa maarathaa ||
Without feet, the mortal jumps.
  
 ਬਦਨੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਖਿਰ ਖਿਰ ਹਾਸਤਾ ॥ 
badhanai bin khir khir haasathaa ||
Without a mouth, he bursts into laughter.
  
 ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਰੁ ਪੈ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ 
nidhraa bin nar pai sovai ||
Without feeling sleepy, he lays down and sleeps.
  
 ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
bin baasan kheer bilovai ||2||
Without a churn, the milk is churned. ||2||
  
 ਬਿਨੁ ਅਸਥਨ ਗਊ ਲਵੇਰੀ ॥ 
bin asathhan goo lavaeree ||
Without udders, the cow gives milk.
  
ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥ 
paiddae bin baatt ghanaeree ||
Without travelling, a long journey is made.
  
 ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
bin sathigur baatt n paaee ||
Without the True Guru, the path is not found.
  
 ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥ 
kahu kabeer samajhaaee ||3||3||
Says Kabeer, see this, and understand. ||3||3||

Sant Kabir
Ang 1194


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2009)

pk70 ji 

This shabad was posted a long time ago by forum member Soul_Jyot on a thread by a different name. It is a wonderful expression by the 5th Guru of another truth of the journey. We see that the only sustenance is the Lord. And we also see that the reality is not of ego's making for it is a journey "where no one knows you." It is a journey where mind and intellect eventually must admit defeat for it is a journey in total darkness where the only light to the path is the light of the Lord's Name. It is a path of terrible heat and blazing sunshine which drives the ego, parched by thirst, to cry out......

 ijh mwrg ky gny jwih n kosw ]
  jih maarag kae ganae jaahi n kosaa ||
_On that path where the miles cannot be counted,_

hir kw nwmu aUhw sMig qosw ]
  har kaa naam oohaa sa(n)g thosaa ||
_there, the Name of the Lord shall be your sustenance._

ijh pYfY mhw AMD gubwrw ]
  jih paiddai mehaa a(n)dhh gubaaraa ||
_On that journey of total, pitch-black darkness,_

hir kw nwmu sMig aujIAwrw ]
  har kaa naam sa(n)g oujeeaaraa ||
_the Name of the Lord shall be the Light with you._

jhw pMiQ qyrw ko n is\wnU ]
  jehaa pa(n)thh thaeraa ko n sin(j)aanoo ||
_On that journey where no one knows you,_

hir kw nwmu qh nwil pCwnU ]
  har kaa naam theh naal pashhaanoo ||
_with the Name of the Lord, you shall be recognized._

jh mhw BieAwn qpiq bhu Gwm ]
  jeh mehaa bhaeiaan thapath bahu ghaam ||
_Where there is awesome and terrible heat and blazing sunshine,_

qh hir ky nwm kI qum aUpir Cwm ]
  theh har kae naam kee thum oopar shhaam ||
_there, the Name of the Lord will give you shade._

jhw iqRKw mn quJu AwkrKY ]
  jehaa thrikhaa man thujh aakarakhai ||
_Where thirst, O my mind, torments you to cry out,_

qh nwnk hir hir AMimRqu brKY ]4]
  theh naanak har har a(n)mrith barakhai ||4||
_there, O Nanak, the Ambrosial Name, Har, Har, shall rain down upon you. ||4||

_Guru Arjan Dev Ji 
Raag Gauree 
Ang 264


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## Astroboy (Jan 4, 2009)

I have a question :

Is an understanding of how Laws of Nature work, part of understanding His Hukam ?


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## pk70 (Jan 5, 2009)

namjap said:


> I have a question :
> 
> Is an understanding of how Laws of Nature work, part of understanding His Hukam ?



*I have a question for you too namjap jio*
*How laws of nature can be different from His Ordinance since every thing is bound to His Ordinance?*


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## Astroboy (Jan 5, 2009)

PK70 Ji,

Yes I agree that Laws of Nature are all part of His Hukam. My specific query is while we are treading the Journey towards God, what is the right way to understand His Hukam. 

If giving our mind, body and wealth to the true Guru is the only way, then aren't we also already belonging to Him in principle ? Tuks of gurbani also mention how can we offer anything to God when everything belongs to Him 

But in this journey, we have a physical body. And this body is subject to physical laws., some of which have been understood. With our limited understanding of His Hukam, there is also a whole 'new' but already existing non-physical laws that can be termed higher laws which in turn govern and mould the lower laws. 

Please throw some light on the matter.


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## pk70 (Jan 5, 2009)

namjap said:


> PK70 Ji,
> 
> Yes I agree that Laws of Nature are all part of His Hukam. My specific query is while we are treading the Journey towards God, what is the right way to understand His Hukam.(quote namjap jio)
> *We cannot obey His Hukam as long as we, consciously or unconsciously, keep pleasing our minds, we cannot understand or tread on a path towards the Lord if our minds remain influenced of Maya. Even if we say” Yes all is His Hukam” we still defy it as we are led by the intellect of us that dances to the tunes of our ego. Guru ji stresses*
> ...


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## pk70 (Jan 5, 2009)

*The following Shabad was quoted by Soul-jyot ji and referred by aad jio above.*
*It is beautiful expression in context of being in His refuge.
*
*In the following Guru Shabad, Fifth Nanak takes life not a journey filled with harmonious moments but a tasteless experience and advises the followers to seek Lord’s Name that can make it easy and harmonious. The first Guru Vaak expresses a long life having abyss but Lord’s name is only useful in it*
ijh mwrg ky gny jwih n kosw ]
jih maarag kae ganae jaahi n kosaa ||
_On that path where the miles cannot be counted,_
hir kw nwmu aUhw sMig qosw ]
har kaa naam oohaa sa(n)g thosaa ||
_there, the Name of the Lord shall be your sustenance._

*In the following, the life though shined with Maya influences, still it is filled with darkness due to lack of divine knowledge. However, Lord’s Name lightens it up to dispel darkness created by Maya*
ijh pYfY mhw AMD gubwrw ]
jih paiddai mehaa a(n)dhh gubaaraa ||
_On that journey of total, pitch-black darkness,_
hir kw nwmu sMig aujIAwrw ]
har kaa naam sa(n)g oujeeaaraa ||
_the Name of the Lord shall be the Light with you._

*Devotees differ from the worldly attached people, they behave different way which may not be liked by “Sansaari”; it doesn’t matter to the devotees because with them is Lord’s Name, a kind of ultimate support, why to bother about temporary support?
*jhw pMiQ qyrw ko n is\wnU ]
jehaa pa(n)thh thaeraa ko n sin(j)aanoo ||
_On that journey where no one knows you,_
hir kw nwmu qh nwil pCwnU ]
har kaa naam theh naal pashhaanoo ||
_with the Name of the Lord, you shall be recognized._

*Life becomes terrible as one goes through ups and downs, Guru ji applauds the seeker not to worry as the Lord’s support is enough to pass through it, after all, the Lord is there.
*jh mhw BieAwn qpiq bhu Gwm ]
jeh mehaa bhaeiaan thapath bahu ghaam ||
_Where there is awesome and terrible heat and blazing sunshine,_
qh hir ky nwm kI qum aUpir Cwm ]
theh har kae naam kee thum oopar shhaam ||
_there, the Name of the Lord will give you shade._

*As mind get tormented due to many reasons in this Maya dominated world, Guru ji is encouraging the soul to remain in Lord’s refuge, love for the Lord will void all miseries and eventually, peace will blossom within the heart*
jhw iqRKw mn quJu AwkrKY ]
jehaa thrikhaa man thujh aakarakhai ||
_Where thirst, O my mind, torments you to cry out,_
qh nwnk hir hir AMimRqu brKY ]4]( *Guru Arjan Dev Ji 
Raag Gauree 
Ang 264)*


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## Astroboy (Jan 5, 2009)

*



			In this world, there are two ways, one is to be pleased and to please others, the second one is to be in love with the Lord and paying no attention to what the world says in pursuit of the Creator. There are some who want to do the both, they are stuck, there are those who just care and love for the Lord, they progress to the highest spiritual level.
		
Click to expand...


*ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

ਰਾਗੁ  ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲਾ  ਪਹਿਲਾ  ੧  ਘਰੁ  ੧  ॥ 
रागु सिरीरागु महला पहिला १ घरु १ ॥ 
Rāg sirīrāg mėhlā pahilā 1 gẖar 1. 
Raag Siree Raag, First Mehl, First House: 

ਮੋਤੀ  ਤ  ਮੰਦਰ  ਊਸਰਹਿ  ਰਤਨੀ  ਤ  ਹੋਹਿ  ਜੜਾਉ  ॥ 
मोती त मंदर ऊसरहि रतनी त होहि जड़ाउ ॥ 
Moṯī ṯa manḏar ūsrėh raṯnī ṯa hohi jaṛā▫o. 
If I had a palace made of pearls, inlaid with jewels, 

ਕਸਤੂਰਿ  ਕੁੰਗੂ  ਅਗਰਿ  ਚੰਦਨਿ  ਲੀਪਿ  ਆਵੈ  ਚਾਉ  ॥ 
कसतूरि कुंगू अगरि चंदनि लीपि आवै चाउ ॥ 
Kasṯūr kungū agar cẖanḏan līp āvai cẖā▫o. 
scented with musk, saffron and sandalwood, a sheer delight to behold - 

ਮਤੁ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਭੂਲਾ  ਵੀਸਰੈ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਚਿਤਿ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੧॥ 
मतु देखि भूला वीसरै तेरा चिति न आवै नाउ ॥१॥ 
Maṯ ḏekẖ bẖūlā vīsrai ṯerā cẖiṯ na āvai nā▫o. ||1|| 
seeing this, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||1|| 

ਹਰਿ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਜੀਉ  ਜਲਿ  ਬਲਿ  ਜਾਉ  ॥ 
हरि बिनु जीउ जलि बलि जाउ ॥ 
Har bin jī▫o jal bal jā▫o. 
Without the Lord, my soul is scorched and burnt. 

ਮੈ  ਆਪਣਾ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੂਛਿ  ਦੇਖਿਆ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਥਾਉ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
मै आपणा गुरु पूछि देखिआ अवरु नाही थाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Mai āpṇā gur pūcẖẖ ḏekẖi▫ā avar nāhī thā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all. ||1||Pause|| 

ਧਰਤੀ  ਤ  ਹੀਰੇ  ਲਾਲ  ਜੜਤੀ  ਪਲਘਿ  ਲਾਲ  ਜੜਾਉ  ॥ 
धरती त हीरे लाल जड़ती पलघि लाल जड़ाउ ॥ 
Ḏẖarṯī ṯa hīre lāl jaṛ▫ṯī palagẖ lāl jaṛā▫o. 
If the floor of this palace was a mosaic of diamonds and rubies, and if my bed was encased with rubies, 

ਮੋਹਣੀ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਮਣੀ  ਸੋਹੈ  ਕਰੇ  ਰੰਗਿ  ਪਸਾਉ  ॥ 
मोहणी मुखि मणी सोहै करे रंगि पसाउ ॥ 
Mohṇī mukẖ maṇī sohai kare rang pasā▫o. 
and if heavenly beauties, their faces adorned with emeralds, tried to entice me with sensual gestures of love - 

ਮਤੁ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਭੂਲਾ  ਵੀਸਰੈ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਚਿਤਿ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੨॥ 
मतु देखि भूला वीसरै तेरा चिति न आवै नाउ ॥२॥ 
Maṯ ḏekẖ bẖūlā vīsrai ṯerā cẖiṯ na āvai nā▫o. ||2|| 
seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||2|| 

ਸਿਧੁ  ਹੋਵਾ  ਸਿਧਿ  ਲਾਈ  ਰਿਧਿ  ਆਖਾ  ਆਉ  ॥ 
सिधु होवा सिधि लाई रिधि आखा आउ ॥ 
Siḏẖ hovā siḏẖ lā▫ī riḏẖ ākẖā ā▫o. 
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth 

ਗੁਪਤੁ  ਪਰਗਟੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਬੈਸਾ  ਲੋਕੁ  ਰਾਖੈ  ਭਾਉ  ॥ 
गुपतु परगटु होइ बैसा लोकु राखै भाउ ॥ 
Gupaṯ pargat ho▫e baisā lok rākẖai bẖā▫o. 
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe - 

ਮਤੁ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਭੂਲਾ  ਵੀਸਰੈ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਚਿਤਿ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੩॥ 
मतु देखि भूला वीसरै तेरा चिति न आवै नाउ ॥३॥ 
Maṯ ḏekẖ bẖūlā vīsrai ṯerā cẖiṯ na āvai nā▫o. ||3|| 
seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3|| 

ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ  ਹੋਵਾ  ਮੇਲਿ  ਲਸਕਰ  ਤਖਤਿ  ਰਾਖਾ  ਪਾਉ  ॥ 
सुलतानु होवा मेलि लसकर तखति राखा पाउ ॥ 
Sulṯān hovā mel laskar ṯakẖaṯ rākẖā pā▫o. 
If I were to become an emperor and raise a huge army, and sit on a throne, 

ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਹਾਸਲੁ  ਕਰੀ  ਬੈਠਾ  ਨਾਨਕਾ  ਸਭ  ਵਾਉ  ॥ 
हुकमु हासलु करी बैठा नानका सभ वाउ ॥ 
Hukam hāsal karī baiṯẖā nānkā sabẖ vā▫o. 
issuing commands and collecting taxes-O Nanak, all of this could pass away like a puff of wind. 

ਮਤੁ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਭੂਲਾ  ਵੀਸਰੈ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਚਿਤਿ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੪॥੧॥ 
मतु देखि भूला वीसरै तेरा चिति न आवै नाउ ॥४॥१॥ 
Maṯ ḏekẖ bẖūlā vīsrai ṯerā cẖiṯ na āvai nā▫o. ||4||1|| 
Seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||4||1||


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2009)

So then,

ਤੂੰ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਸਭ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
  thoon dhareeaao sabh thujh hee maahi ||
  You are the River of Life; all are within You.

If we are drawn to Him, and our Love for Him is first of all our loves, and as pk70 ji says, "*the second one is to be in love with the Lord and paying no attention to what the world says in pursuit of the Creator," *does it not follow that we will love others as well.
_
Two quatrains from the Shabad by Guru Ram Das in raag Aasaa, on Ang 11 (and continues on Ang _12)

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ 
aasaa mehalaa 4 ||
Aasaa, Fourth Mehl:
  

 ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ਮੈਡਾ ਸਾਂਈ ॥ 
thoon karathaa sachiaar maiddaa saanee ||
You are the True Creator, my Lord and Master.
  

 ਜੋ ਤਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਥੀਸੀ ਜੋ ਤੂੰ ਦੇਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਹਉ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jo tho bhaavai soee thheesee jo thoon dhaehi soee ho paaee ||1|| rehaao ||
Whatever pleases You comes to pass. As You give, so do we receive. ||1||Pause||
  

 ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ 
sabh thaeree thoon sabhanee dhhiaaeiaa ||
All belong to You, all meditate on you.
  

 ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਤਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
jis no kirapaa karehi thin naam rathan paaeiaa ||
Those who are blessed with Your Mercy obtain the Jewel of the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
  

 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਧਾ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ 
guramukh laadhhaa manamukh gavaaeiaa ||
The Gurmukhs obtain it, and the self-willed manmukhs lose it.
  

 ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ 
thudhh aap vishhorriaa aap milaaeiaa ||1||
You Yourself separate them from Yourself, and You Yourself reunite with them again. ||1||
  

 ਤੂੰ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਸਭ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
thoon dhareeaao sabh thujh hee maahi ||
You are the River of Life; all are within You.
  

ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ 
thujh bin dhoojaa koee naahi ||
There is no one except You.
  
​


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## pk70 (Jan 5, 2009)

*the second one is to be in love with the Lord and paying no attention to what the world says in pursuit of the Creator," *does it not follow that we will love others as well.(quote aad0002Ji)


*aad Jio, very good question, lets not draw a line between the two as there is none.*
*We must understand that falling in love with the Lord, doesn’t mean hating His creation or His own part (Sargun Sroop).*
*Any one, who falls in love with the Lord, certainly will love His creation as well. If a person doesn’t love His creation, how to love Him is possible? Loving and getting lost only in His creation is the problem. The devotees do not involve too much in His creation to forget Him. There is a difference between falling in love with His creation and living in His love. When a real devotee falls in love with the Lord, he/she stops feeding ego and remains detached to His loving Creation, which is a contrary to what the world believes in. So“sansaarees” judge him/her by calling “pagal/crazy” but the devotees doesn’t pay attention to their judgment because they just do not know what they do. The real lover of the Lord doesn’t see the Lord separate from His creation but his hunger for the union with the Lord is satisfied only when he/she abandons that part of him/her that hinders the union, also known as ego and influence of Maya. When that happens, loving His creation doesn’t become chain in the spiritual progress. If that love for the creation tries to chain the soul to it, the real devotees wouldn’t let it do it. As per Gurbani, the Lord Himself created His Creation and settled it in Maya. **ਬਾਬਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਚਨਾ ਧੋਹੁ **॥ **ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ *
*Bābā mā▫i▫ā racẖnā ḏẖohu. **Anḏẖai nām visāri▫ā nā ṯis eh na oh. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*O Father! deceitful is the splendor of worldly object. **The (spiritually) blind man has forgotten God's Name. He neither abides in peace in this world nor in the next. Pause.*


*Warning is against blind attachment towards His creation not loving it as His part, Guru ji also calls it a pill of intoxication.*
*ਅਮਲੁ ਗਲੋਲਾ ਕੂੜ ਕਾ ਦਿਤਾ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰਿ **॥ **ਮਤੀ ਮਰਣੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਖੁਸੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰਿ **॥ **ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਫੀਆ ਰਾਖਣ ਕਉ ਦਰਵਾਰੁ **॥**੧**॥ *
*Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. **Amal galolā kūṛ kā ḏiṯā ḏevaṇhār. **Maṯī maraṇ visāri▫ā kẖusī kīṯī ḏin cẖār. **Sacẖ mili▫ā ṯin sofī▫ā rākẖaṇ ka▫o ḏarvār. ||1|| *
*Sri Rag, First Guru. **The Giver has given man intoxicating pill of falsehood. **Having been intoxicated therewith he has forgotten death and makes merry for four days. **The mortals, who are the nonusers of intoxicants, obtain truthfulness to keep them in God's Court. *

*True Love of the Lord, hates none but doesn’t allow either the creation or the Maya to hinder His union with the Origin, the Lord.*


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2009)

pk70 ji

You have written so beautifully about love of the Creator and His Creation.


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## gurvinder_janu (Jan 5, 2009)

*{*The real lover of the Lord doesn’t see the Lord separate from His creation but his hunger for the union with the Lord is satisfied only when he/she abandons that part of him/her that hinders the union, also known as ego and influence of Maya. When that happens, loving His creation doesn’t become *chain in the spiritual progress*. If that love for the creation tries to chain the soul to it, the real devotees wouldn’t let it do it. As per Gurbani, the Lord Himself created His Creation and settled it in Maya.* } (Quote respected pk70 Ji)*

*Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh*
*Respected pk70 Ji *

*Thanx for starting this beautiful thread.*

*Please elaborate.(chain in the spiritual progress)*.

*Regards*
*Bhul chuk lai maafi ji*


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## Astroboy (Jan 6, 2009)

*



			It is not offering where Guru asks you to give, it is your “attention” Guru wants. The “Self” that is influenced by Maya, Guru wants to mold it. If that is not given, what Guru can do?
		
Click to expand...

*http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1372&english=t&id=58582#l58582
ਕਬੀਰ  ਸਾਚਾ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਕਿਆ  ਕਰੈ  ਜਉ  ਸਿਖਾ  ਮਹਿ  ਚੂਕ  ॥ 
कबीर साचा सतिगुरु किआ करै जउ सिखा महि चूक ॥ 
Kabīr sācẖā saṯgur ki▫ā karai ja▫o sikẖā mėh cẖūk. 
Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? 

ਅੰਧੇ  ਏਕ  ਨ  ਲਾਗਈ  ਜਿਉ  ਬਾਂਸੁ  ਬਜਾਈਐ  ਫੂਕ  ॥੧੫੮॥ 
अंधे एक न लागई जिउ बांसु बजाईऐ फूक ॥१५८॥ 
Anḏẖe ek na lāg▫ī ji▫o bāŉs bajā▫ī▫ai fūk. ||158|| 
The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158|| 

Ang 1372


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## Astroboy (Jan 6, 2009)

Ang 1373

ਕਬੀਰ  ਕੋਠੀ  ਕਾਠ  ਕੀ  ਦਹ  ਦਿਸਿ  ਲਾਗੀ  ਆਗਿ  ॥ 
कबीर कोठी काठ की दह दिसि लागी आगि ॥ 
Kabīr koṯẖī kāṯẖ kī ḏah ḏis lāgī āg. 
Kabeer, the wooden house is burning on all sides. 

ਪੰਡਿਤ  ਪੰਡਿਤ  ਜਲਿ  ਮੂਏ  ਮੂਰਖ  ਉਬਰੇ  ਭਾਗਿ  ॥੧੭੨॥ 
पंडित पंडित जलि मूए मूरख उबरे भागि ॥१७२॥ 
Pandiṯ pandiṯ jal mū▫e mūrakẖ ubre bẖāg. ||172|| 
The Pandits, the religious scholars, have been burnt to death, while the illiterate ones run to safety. ||172|| 

ਕਬੀਰ  ਸੰਸਾ  ਦੂਰਿ  ਕਰੁ  ਕਾਗਦ  ਦੇਹ  ਬਿਹਾਇ  ॥ 
कबीर संसा दूरि करु कागद देह बिहाइ ॥ 
Kabīr sansā ḏūr kar kāgaḏ ḏeh bihā▫e. 
Kabeer, give up your skepticism; let your papers float away. 

ਬਾਵਨ  ਅਖਰ  ਸੋਧਿ  ਕੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਚਰਨੀ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਲਾਇ  ॥੧੭੩॥ 
बावन अखर सोधि कै हरि चरनी चितु लाइ ॥१७३॥ 
Bāvan akẖar soḏẖ kai har cẖarnī cẖiṯ lā▫e. ||173|| 
Find the essence of the letters of the alphabet, and focus your consciousness on the Lord. ||173||


Is this an unlearning process, PK70 Ji, Aad Ji, Kiram Ji, Gurvinder Ji ?


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## Astroboy (Jan 6, 2009)

> Loving and getting lost only in His creation is the problem. The devotees do not involve too much in His creation to forget Him.


Page 676, Line 10
*ਦਾਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਵਿਸਰਿਆ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥*
दाति पिआरी विसरिआ दातारा ॥
Ḏāṯ pi▫ārī visri▫ā ḏāṯārā.
*He loves gifts, but he forgets the Giver.*
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## pk70 (Jan 6, 2009)

namjap said:


> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਬੀਰ *ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ **॥
> **कबीर साचा सतिगुरु किआ करै जउ सिखा महि चूक ॥
> Kabīr sāc**ẖā sa**ṯgur ki▫ā karai ja▫o sik**ẖā mėh c**ẖūk.
> Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault?
> ...


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## pk70 (Jan 6, 2009)

gurvinder_janu said:


> *{*The real lover of the Lord doesn’t see the Lord separate from His creation but his hunger for the union with the Lord is satisfied only when he/she abandons that part of him/her that hinders the union, also known as ego and influence of Maya. When that happens, loving His creation doesn’t become *chain in the spiritual progress*. If that love for the creation tries to chain the soul to it, the real devotees wouldn’t let it do it. As per Gurbani, the Lord Himself created His Creation and settled it in Maya.* } (Quote respected pk70 Ji)*
> 
> *Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh*
> *Respected pk70 Ji *
> ...




*Gurvinder janu ji*
*Thanks for liking the thread. I shall do my best to elaborate the clause I used in support of many Guru Vakas.*
* Guru ji unlike other sectarian thinking, accepts His creation as a real one. Lets see that first Guru Vaak in this context*
*ਸਚੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਸਚੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ **॥ 
**Sacẖe ṯere kẖand sacẖe barahmand. 
**True are Your worlds, True are Your solar Systems. 
**ਸਚੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਲੋਅ ਸਚੇ ਆਕਾਰ **॥ (SGGS 463)
**Sacẖe ṯere lo▫a sacẖe ākār. 
**True are Your realms, True is Your creation*

*Above Guru ji expresses that all His creation is actually a reality.*
*Now let’s see another Guru Vaak that states all is false*
*ਕੂੜੁ* *ਰਾਜਾ* *ਕੂੜੁ ਪਰਜਾ ਕੂੜੁ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ **॥**(SGGS 468)
**Kū**ṛ** rājā kū**ṛ** parjā kū**ṛ** sab**ẖ** sansār.*
*False is the king, false are the subjects; false is the whole world. ||1||*

*Here His creation is called false in context of the eternity of the Lord; compared to Him, all is perishable, for more clarity, please read on*
*ਬਿਨੁ ਸਚੇ ਸਭ* *ਕੂੜ**ੁ ਹੈ ਅੰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ **॥**੧**॥ **ਰਹਾਉ **॥**(SGGS 49)
**Bin sac**ẖ**e sab**ẖ** kū**ṛ** hai an**ṯ**e ho▫e binās. ||1|| rahā▫o.  *
*Without the True One, everything is false; in the end, all shall perish. ||1||Pause*


*So in this regard, only Truth is the Lord, rest is false as it is perishable unlike the Lord*
*Gurbani advocates family life and assures the followers to realize the Lord by living right in His created World*
*ਹਸੰਦਿਆ* *ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ **॥**੨**॥**(SGGS 522)
**Hasan**ḏ**i▫ā k**ẖ**elan**ḏ**i▫ā painan**ḏ**i▫ā k**ẖ**āvan**ḏ**i▫ā vic**ẖ**e hovai muka**ṯ**. ||2||
**While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||*
*So now question is how all this can be a chain. Lets go back to the clause “** chains in the spiritual progress” All that come into the way of uniting with the Lord, are chains, it can be a relation, deeds, desires/urges, ego , anger or deep attachment. While living in a society with so many relatives and friends, soul alone treads on the journey towards the Lord. All responsibilities, all the care and passion shown are natural; however, when for any reason (due to a relation, ego, anger, greed etc), soul falls for Maya influence, loses virtues, it is literally a chain in spiritual progress. Here is Guru ji pointing out all relations “chains” if they hinder souls progress towards uniting with the Lord. If because of them, soul doesn’t become aware of its relation with Lord and its purpose, certainly they are its chains.
**ਬੰਧਨ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ **॥ **ਬੰਧਨ ਸੁਤ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਨਾਰਿ **॥**੨**॥ *
*Banḏẖan māṯ piṯā sansār. **Banḏẖan suṯ kanniā ar nār. ||2|| *
*Entanglements are mother, father and the world. **Entanglement are *
*So in a net shell, as long as they act as a blockage to the spiritual progression, they are chains, if they detour from the spiritual goal, they are chains. True devotees never let them be chains.*


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## gurvinder_janu (Jan 6, 2009)

*Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Respected pk70 Ji *

*Thanx for descriptive reply.*

*Regards*
*Bhul chuk lai maafi ji*


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## Astroboy (Jan 8, 2009)

namjap said:


> Ang 1373
> 
> ਕਬੀਰ  ਕੋਠੀ  ਕਾਠ  ਕੀ  ਦਹ  ਦਿਸਿ  ਲਾਗੀ  ਆਗਿ  ॥
> कबीर कोठी काठ की दह दिसि लागी आगि ॥
> ...




Here's a response I received via email from an old friend, and with his consent, I am posting the response here :-


The meaning of  this shabad hinges upon the meaning of "what is the essence."  The  house is burning because it is caught in time/kala, therefore it is destructible  and temporary and is of the nature of suffering things which pass  away.  Anything which is of the sansaar, such as ordinary learning, respect  of others, egotism and pride of accomplishments will be reduced to this  kind of burning/destruction.  When people try to make this outward show  their spirituality, they too, even religious scholars and respected spiritual  people are reduced to ash.  It is worthless knowledge, vain and empty  show.  It can save no one.  And Kabir Ji is also using himself as  example, by saying even the authentically spiritual banis he is writing might as  well float away, this means he has non-attachment, and also that the physical  banis (papers, ink, etc). will be reduced to ash.

But the "essence of the letters" is the  same meaning as "mantra ras," or put it properly, the vibrational reality of the  higher consciousness which cannot burn and doesn't pass away contained within  the banis, focus your mind on that, because THAT vibrational Presence is the  everlasting Lord.  And also by way of reversing the meaning, the essence of  the Lord's Presence which will uplift your consciousness, is also going to burn  away the worthless house you falsely cherish.  So the bani is speaking of  divestment of ego and withdrawal from worldly attainment in name of spiritual  teaching, because the essence of spiritual teaching is radical cleansing away of  all that is not God, until all that is left is that which is not  caught in time/kala, ie., only God will be ultimately left.  That is the  essence and spiritual attainment to focus your consciousness on.  So it is  not specifically an "unlearning" but rather a refocusing and interior divestment  of any show of spirituality, even reading of banis.  In other words, take  your knowledge of God's shabad to the next level and abandon yourself to His  Presence in the vibrational essence which is the authentic meaning of Shabad  Naam.  To be illiterate is fine, because it is humility and surrender to  the God that you don't know enough to obstruct His light with your material  misunderstanding.  Even the illiterate can cling to the mantras hidden in  the essence of the letters, and that is all the Shabad-Jyot you need.  The  rest is superficial and worthless.  So we see here a very profound teaching  by Bhagat Kabir Ji.

- Anonymous -


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## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2009)

NamJap ji

To me this is the key sentence in the response of your friend.

To be illiterate is fine, because it is humility and surrender to the God that you don't know enough to obstruct His light with your material misunderstanding.

Kabir intends us to grasp that whatever intellect tells us to expect contradicts knowledge of the Divine. As your friend is saying, material understanding is "material misunderstanding" when seeking God.  Kabir also says....

ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
bin baasan kheer bilovai ||2||
Without a churn, the milk is churned. ||2||

and later in the same shabad

http://www.searchgurbani.com/bhagats/bhagatkabir.htm ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥ 
paiddae bin baatt ghanaeree ||
Without travelling, a long journey is made.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
bin sathigur baatt n paaee ||
Without the True Guru, the path is not found.
  

 ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥ 
kahu kabeer samajhaaee ||3||3||
Says Kabeer, see this, and understand. ||3||3||

The intellect  interprets cause and effect or describes material reality, making predictions, finding patterns, creating concepts and theories. But in the world of spirit one's journey does not involve travel in our familiar dimensions of material knowledge. The spirit is churned without a churn. These contradictions are deliberate. As you can see in the shabad that you quoted 

ਕਬੀਰ  ਸੰਸਾ  ਦੂਰਿ  ਕਰੁ  ਕਾਗਦ  ਦੇਹ  ਬਿਹਾਇ  ॥ 
कबीर संसा दूरि करु कागद देह बिहाइ ॥ 
Kabīr sansā ḏūr kar kāgaḏ ḏeh bihā▫e. 
Kabeer, give up your skepticism; let your papers float away. 

All the products of intellect have to give way in surrender. Your friend writes in a very poetic way.

Thankx.


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## pk70 (Jan 9, 2009)

*First of all, namjap ji, these are Kabir ji’s Slokas not shabad therefore different ideas are conveyed in Slokas unlike in a Shabad. Let’s try to understand them first

ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋਠੀ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਆਗਿ **॥ 
**कबीर कोठी काठ की दह दिसि लागी आगि ॥ 
Kabīr ko**ṯẖī kā**ṯẖ kī **ḏah **ḏis lāgī āg. 
Kabeer, the wooden house is burning on all sides. 
Imagine this body a house of wood with fire set on it, so in the body, the fire of desires, ego, deep attachment etc has been set on, the body is being consumed every bit of time by this fire. Now read the next Vaak that states who are saved and who are not from this fire
ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜਲਿ ਮੂਏ ਮੂਰਖ ਉਬਰੇ ਭਾਗਿ **॥**੧੭੨**॥ 
**पंडित पंडित जलि मूए मूरख उबरे भागि ॥१७२॥ 
Pandi**ṯ pandi**ṯ jal mū▫e mūrak**ẖ ubre b**ẖāg. ||172|| 
The Pandits, the religious scholars, have been burnt to death, while the illiterate ones run to safety. ||172|| *
*The intellectuals/scholars have a problem of ego etc, they have a problem to surrender ego by being having pride in it. Illiterate ones do not have that problem and are quickly eager to give up all that causing the fire and are saved. The intellectuals remained stick to ego and consequently are burnt by it. The next sloka is very relevant to this one.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਸਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਹਾਇ **॥ 
**कबीर संसा दूरि करु कागद देह बिहाइ ॥ 
Kabīr sansā **ḏūr kar kāga**ḏ **ḏeh bihā▫e. 
Kabeer, give up your skepticism; let your papers float away. *
*Ego creates doubts, doubts create duality. Ego also inspires to be righteous as described above, so it blocks freedom from all that. Directly Kabir ji is advising to give up this “paper” means the knowledge acquired by the intellect guided by ego, as it won’t helpful in obtaining the Lord. So it is advisable to abandon it and to surrender it to the Lord. Remember where Kab[/FONT]* *ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰ ਸੋਧਿ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ **॥**੧੭੩**॥ 
**बावन अखर सोधि कै हरि चरनी चितु लाइ ॥१७३॥ 
Bāvan ak**ẖar so**ḏẖ kai har c**ẖarnī c**ẖi**ṯ lā▫e. ||173|| 
Find the essence of the letters of the alphabet, and focus your consciousness on the Lord. ||173||*
*Bawan Akhri is used for knowledge- obtaining- medium. It means ponder over obtained knowledge of scriptures and meditate on the Lord. *

*Burning of the body should not be related to time as per your friend’s statement because time is fixed for all, commoners or enlightened ones, it is the ego that sets fire along with other negative forces for which we remain determined to please them.*
*I agree with your friend where he/she states about getting above praise or criticism and pleasing business. The spiritual goal is not gained as long as we are into pleasing our “self” and others. Bani written in the praise of the Lord goes beyond papers.  To feel Presence of the Lord is just impossible as long as we are torn apart between this worldly right and wrong affair and pursuit to seek Him. That is another reason, in Gurbani, it is repeatedly said “a few in million will realize Him” Both slokas of Kabir ji hint at ego and knowledge related to ego as hindrance in union with the Lord. In the Sloka number 173, Kabir ji is directly advising us to get rid of ego related knowledge but to ponder over the divine knowledge acquired through learning religious scriptures and to meditate on the Lord.  These are my humble views on it.
[/FONT]*[/FONT]*

 [/FONT]*


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## Astroboy (Jan 9, 2009)

What does one do when his marriage/spouse becomes a hindrance to spiritual attainment ?
I will spare you the details as they are commonly known by all.


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2009)

NamJap ji -- Marriage, spouse, children, in-laws, relatives in need, hostile neighbors and co-workers, job responsibilities and all the things faced by householder get in the way in one sense. Sant Kabir was part of the Bhakti movement of northern Indian. Guru Nanak had a somewhat different perspective. There is a good explanation of the difference at this link http://www.sikhnet.com/news/bhakti-movement-800-ad-1700-ad 

Our liberation may come from the fact that Guru Nanak looked at things in a fresh way. 

I do not have answers obviously -- but we have the possibility of working surrender to the Shabad into each nook and cranny of our day in spite of everyone else by working dhyann into the corners of our lives and consciousness where the rest of the world cannot reach us. I think the dhyann comes first and then the realization -- after that detachment becomes a truth in our lives. Kabir may or may not have known Guru Nanak, and he speaks about giving up intellect,  and then finding God. I think Nanak was saying surrender intellect to the Shabad, and you will find God --- and then mann will be silenced. In my humble opinion -- they are a little different.


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## Astroboy (Jan 9, 2009)

Here's a portion of a shabad touching on family entanglements :-
ਜਾ  ਕਉ  ਚਿੰਤਾ  ਬਹੁਤੁ  ਬਹੁਤੁ  ਦੇਹੀ  ਵਿਆਪੈ  ਰੋਗੁ  ॥ 
जा कउ चिंता बहुतु बहुतु देही विआपै रोगु ॥ 
Jā ka▫o cẖinṯā bahuṯ bahuṯ ḏehī vi▫āpai rog. 
When you are plagued by great and excessive anxiety, and diseases of the body; 

ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ  ਕੁਟੰਬਿ  ਪਲੇਟਿਆ  ਕਦੇ  ਹਰਖੁ  ਕਦੇ  ਸੋਗੁ  ॥ 
ग्रिसति कुट्मबि पलेटिआ कदे हरखु कदे सोगु ॥ 
Garisaṯ kutamb paleti▫ā kaḏe harakẖ kaḏe sog. 
when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow; 

ਗਉਣੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਚਹੁ  ਕੁੰਟ  ਕਾ  ਘੜੀ  ਨ  ਬੈਸਣੁ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
गउणु करे चहु कुंट का घड़ी न बैसणु सोइ ॥ 
Ga▫oṇ kare cẖahu kunt kā gẖaṛī na baisaṇ so▫e. 
when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment - 

ਚਿਤਿ  ਆਵੈ  ਓਸੁ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੁ  ਸੀਤਲੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੩॥ 
चिति आवै ओसु पारब्रहमु तनु मनु सीतलु होइ ॥३॥ 
Cẖiṯ āvai os pārbarahm ṯan man sīṯal ho▫e. ||3|| 
if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3|| 

For full shabad :  			#*22* (*permalink*)


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## pk70 (Jan 9, 2009)

namjap said:


> What does one do when his marriage/spouse becomes a hindrance to spiritual attainment ?
> I will spare you the details as they are commonly known by all.



*Namjap ji*
*Personally only those people ask such questions who have very strong desire to pursue the Lord but are torn apart with the both, the Lord and the world. I do not consider myself qualified to advise you on it but I would  like to share how I look at it while being in your shoes.*
*As Gurbani says (quoted before too)** ਹਸੰਦਿਆ**ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ* *॥**੨**॥**(SGGS 522)
Hasan**ḏi▫ā k**ẖelan**ḏi▫ā painan**ḏi▫ā k**ẖāvan**ḏi▫ā vic**ẖe hovai muka**ṯ. ||2||
While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||*

*How is this possible? As per my understanding, keep dealing with all, do hard work to perform responsibilities being a married man towards the family and the society but never follow those who become hindrance in your journey. Keep struggling to go above pleasing each other business, stop acknowledging those thoughts that stop you progressing on your path. I encountered a humble and spiritually advanced person. People came and praised him, he responded “ Use all this praise for the Lord, you would be better off, you are praising the dust of the Lord and forgetting the Lord, please praise Him, it will put smiles on my face” If you notice, even in wishing others, the Lord is kept dominant” Sat Sree Akaal, Waheguru ji ki fateh  etc” It is an effort to focus on Him. There is no abandonment of the family in this journey but to keep focusing on your pursuit with high priority. For whom we fall will not be helpful in our pursuit. Spiritually enlightened ones say “ the soul eventually finds its goal as it harbors nothing but Him within, at that point no effort is needed, and all actions come out of focus on Him and the state of mind goes to this level described by Guru ji*
*ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ **॥ **ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਲੋਗਾ ਰੀਤਿ **॥ **ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨੇ **॥ **ਤੁਰੀਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਪਛਾਨੇ **॥**੨**॥ *
*Parathme ṯi▫āgī ha▫umai parīṯ. **Ḏuṯī▫ā ṯi▫āgī logā rīṯ. **Ŧarai guṇ ṯi▫āg ḏurjan mīṯ samāne. **Ŧurī▫ā guṇ mil sāḏẖ pacẖẖāne. ||2|| **Firstly, I have given up the love of pride. **Secondly, I have renounced the customs of others. **Abandoning the three qualities, I deem an evil person and a friend the same (alike). **Meeting the saintly Guru I have realized the excellences of the fourth (highest) state of mind. *
*So far this is what I have understood and am struggling to walk on it, obviously when I fall, I feel it in a big way.* *When ever I fall, the cause is the same we struggle against. Some times I feel while discussing an issue, I am falling. Many times I think of getting out of it but the mission I have to share Guru Message with others keeps me in it. I am literally on cross roads in this context. Guru ji speaks directly in this context, please ponder over*
*SGGS Ji 384*
*ਸਾਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ **॥ 
**Sācẖ nām merā man lāgā. 
**My mind is attached to the True Name. 
**ਲੋਗਨ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਰਾ **ਠਾਠਾ **ਬਾਗਾ **॥**੧**॥ 
**Logan si▫o merā ṯẖāṯẖā bāgā. ||1|| 
**My dealings with other people are only **superficial.** ||1|| 
**ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੂਤੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਉ **ਮਉਲਾ **॥ 
**Bāhar sūṯ sagal si▫o ma▫ulā. 
**Outwardly, I am on good terms with all; 

**ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਰਹਉ ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ **ਕਉਲਾ **॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ 
**Alipaṯ raha▫o jaise jal mėh ka▫ulā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
**but I remain **detached**, like **the lotus** upon the water. ||1||Pause|| 
** ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਉ ਕਰਤਾ **॥  
**Mukẖ kī bāṯ sagal si▫o karṯā. 
**By word of mouth, I talk with everyone; 
**ਜੀਅ ਸੰਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਪੁਨਾ ਧਰਤਾ **॥**੨*
*Jī▫a sang parabẖ apunā ḏẖarṯā. ||2|| 
**but I keep God clasped to my heart. ||2|| 
**ਦੀਸਿ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ **ਭੀਹਾਲਾ **॥ 
**Ḏīs āvaṯ hai bahuṯ bẖīhālā. 
**I may appear **utterly terrible**, 
**ਸਗਲ ਚਰਨ ਕੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ **ਰਾਲਾ **॥**੩**॥
**Sagal cẖaran kī ih man rālā. ||3|| 
**but my mind is the **dust **of all men's feet. 
**ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ **॥ 
**Nānak jan gur pūrā pā▫i▫ā. 
**Servant Nanak has found the Perfect Guru.*
*ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ **॥**੪**॥**੩**॥**੫੪**॥ 
**Anṯar bāhar ek ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. ||4||3||54|| 
**Inwardly and outwardly, He has shown me the One Lord. ||4||3||54||*
* There is a lot of Guru Advice on SGGS 297.*


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2009)

namjap said:


> Here's a portion of a shabad touching on family entanglements :-
> ਜਾ  ਕਉ  ਚਿੰਤਾ  ਬਹੁਤੁ  ਬਹੁਤੁ  ਦੇਹੀ  ਵਿਆਪੈ  ਰੋਗੁ  ॥
> जा कउ चिंता बहुतु बहुतु देही विआपै रोगु ॥
> Jā ka▫o cẖinṯā bahuṯ bahuṯ ḏehī vi▫āpai rog.
> ...



Nam Jap ji -- Thanks for the Shabad. It is a perfect example of what I was trying to say. Guru Nanak understood the difficulties of a householder and did not shame people into a way of life where they would feel guilt because of the realities of their lives. This is what is so remarkable and unique about Guruji's message. Nowhere else do you find it.

One path is the path of renunciation. On that path the devotee leaves everything and everyone behind in search of personal mukhti. In a way that person does nothing to raise others up; whereas, Guru Nanak says that we rescue ourselves and others when we tie ourselves to the raft of his Shabad. Guru Nanak teaches us how to give as well as how to receive. I become very emotional about this. 

One has to ask where the moral core exists in a path that does not link compassion to liberation. 

ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ  ਕੁਟੰਬਿ  ਪਲੇਟਿਆ  ਕਦੇ  ਹਰਖੁ  ਕਦੇ  ਸੋਗੁ  ॥ 
ग्रिसति कुट्मबि पलेटिआ कदे हरखु कदे सोगु ॥ 
Garisaṯ kutamb paleti▫ā kaḏe harakẖ kaḏe sog. 
when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow; 

ਗਉਣੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਚਹੁ  ਕੁੰਟ  ਕਾ  ਘੜੀ  ਨ  ਬੈਸਣੁ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
गउणु करे चहु कुंट का घड़ी न बैसणु सोइ ॥ 
Ga▫oṇ kare cẖahu kunt kā gẖaṛī na baisaṇ so▫e. 
when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment - 

ਚਿਤਿ  ਆਵੈ  ਓਸੁ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੁ  ਸੀਤਲੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੩॥ 
चिति आवै ओसु पारब्रहमु तनु मनु सीतलु होइ ॥३॥ 
Cẖiṯ āvai os pārbarahm ṯan man sīṯal ho▫e. ||3|| 
if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3||


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## Astroboy (Jan 9, 2009)

*



			So far this is what I have understood and am struggling to walk on it, obviously when I fall, I feel it in a big way.
		
Click to expand...

*


> *When ever I fall, the cause is the same we struggle against. Some times I feel while discussing an issue, I am falling. Many times I think of getting out of it but the mission I have to share Guru Message with others keeps me in it. I am literally on cross roads in this context. Guru ji speaks directly in this context, please ponder over*
> *SGGS Ji 384*
> *ਸਾਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ **॥
> **Sācẖ nām merā man lāgā.
> ...


*

PK70 Ji,

As hungry a soul I am right now, this video clip was brought to my attention recently.
It's about who we really are ?  Or close to it. 

YouTube - How it feels to have a stroke

*


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## pk70 (Jan 10, 2009)

*namjap ji
*
*It is very informatory video about brains and to understand effects of disabled part of brains. Dr. Tailor has presented it exceptionally interesting way. Thanks for sharing it with SPN members and guests.*

*I would like to add here my expressions in relevant to our earlier discussion. The enlightened ones become able to disable that part of brains that keeps us on the fire. By having stroke as Dr. Tailor had, one can experience that. Surprisingly the society shows sympathy and passion for the victim of the stroke but in the case enlightened one, it rarely does as it fails to understand the state of mind. Those who hinder the seeker to progress spiritually actually are not aware of that act by being very ignorant about it. All said in above quoted Guru shabad are instructions of disabling that function of the brains that drags us to the fire when it is not needed. Unlike in the stroke-state,we can go to the past or imagine the future but when that function is disabled, no effect materializes in any way. Thanks.*


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## spnadmin (Jan 10, 2009)

pk70 ji

Thank you for being able to put this into words. It was impossible for me to figure out how to say this:

*The enlightened ones become able to disable that part of brains that keeps us on the fire.

*This is important -- otherwise enlightenment would be a simple case of brain-wave activation with no particular spiritual significance attached to it. You could get the same result with electrodes. Sat Nam.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jan 12, 2009)

‘’Conquering one’s mind avails not, nor family friends and well wishers, when the tyrannical one has cast you into hell.  Should I play the victim my Lord will be accused as my tormentor, therefore I sully my superficial demeanour with ubiquitous ambiguity. I Am, and yet I am not, wheretofore I roam my soul doth find and expose me. I will not bow or submit and he proffers forth not his hand. Is it the Lords will or is my defeat the defeat of him also.  The head ache’s and tormented remains, I dispense of my thoughts and in confusion remain. Where shall I run for not of this world am I, yet I remain.  ‘’man gur mil ke kaaj savare’’  . I bleed and the world bleeds with me, in my despair I am and I am not to shield me from the enemies of my Lord in whose capture I remain. ‘’Aap hath deh mohe bachavo’’. I will not run to another or seek assistance, only your mercy can save me, am I wrong, should I run, and if so to where would I go.  Should I enquire of silent remain. She dwells in her abode, whilst the five loot and pillage of her good fortune, the five are unseen demagogues neither friend nor family. Unseen and unknown. To win again the Love of the Lord is to gain grace from ones Patti Ji. I am bound and the enemy greater than he and I. I could not cast a shadow of danger upon he who gave me nothing but shelter and peace. Behinds me lies the ruins of my father house, and my in laws home. There are demons spewn forth from this being my Lord has denied his grace to confer. I have lost my way, and yet I look and find little lights flickering in my darkness, leading my way back unto the right path. It is not I who roam, nor of any sin have I committed. The witnesses bleed with my tortured soul, and death comes not to take me. What to do ... ‘’ Anon.


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