# Caste System In Sikhism: Why?



## jasi (May 29, 2009)

CAST SYSTEM IN SIKHISM IF IT IS ACCEPETED OR ALLOWED.


WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA AND WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

With all the respect to all SPN members and management as a whole.

Das just wish to know if there is more threads and discussion on cast system which has creeped among us to separate us from each others . Disbelief of cast system is a foundation initiated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji that we all come from one light an we all are equal.

This awareness will is urgently needed which make one cast superior than the others and place of worships are named by certain people who belongs to different cast .Cast was first disease which was eradicated.

Our teachings are none to match in the world yet we are all divided in different branches like Radhswamis,Nirankari,Kukke, and what not.

I humbly suggest this where SPN philosophy should be all about to spread our faith for our growing youths that we are who believes in Sikhism with considering where he has come from as long as he is a human being.



Jaspi


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 29, 2009)

Caste is Brahminical Hinduism.
NO other religious system has any such thing.
When a SIKH is Given the Gift of Khandeh batte dee Pahul and becomes a SINGH/KHALSA, He/she is given a BANNA, the 5 kakaars, His/Her Name is changed, place of Birth is spiritually changed to Anandpur Sahib and Parents changed to Guur Gobind Singh ji and Mata Sahib kaur Ji. He/she pledges to DISCARD ALL PREVIOUS habits, beleifs, superstitions etc etc and have Complete Faitha dn Beleif in ONLY the Ten Guurs and SGGS.
As such a SIKH ahs no more connection with hsi previous...caste/beleifs etc...
BUT PUNJABIS find it so difficult to DISCARD all this RUBBISH. The moment we return home...we RUSH to the DUSTBIN..to RETRIEVE..our "caste/gotra/superstitions/bharams/etc etc etc that we PLEDGED to THROW AWAY FOREVER. We DROP the SINGH/KAUR and restore back the GILL, the Dhillon etc etc.
There is a cure for everything..BUT for a FOOL there is no cure. Sikhs who attach caste are FOOLS and BEMUKHS as they broke the PLEDGE to GURU JI.. NO Apologies.


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## Manisha (May 29, 2009)

Hinduism originated earlier on than other religions, so I guess it's safe to believe it started from there.. But it did spread to _Islam_ and _Sikhism_ - As far as I know, there are still caste systems in the muslim society/islamic culture but obviously, for Sikhism this was until the point at where Guru Ji banished it and where your above point(s) is obviously correct, that Punjabis are just very narrow-minded / uneducated in a sense, and it's their loss anyway for not having an understanding of the principle that ANY religion is purely God-related/based and something as small as caste has no effect on our lives - but only segregates us from one another - so why would anyone encourage this?

I think it's just pride really - Caste system originated in India and apparently it's still used there JUST to identify people as what job they do - that's the ONLY reason it was introduced and obviously along with that, the _status of someone is revealed_ through caste and this is where people NOWADAYS probably take the caste system to a further extent - as it's no longer what job status your ancestors (ect) were - it's about pride, enemies and therefore segregation, identity of status that's not job-related but wealth-related or just simply the stupidity thinking of "I'm better than you" - if you catch my drift..


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## jasi (May 29, 2009)

Thanks for you comments on cast system by these fools but our so called priest and even in Parbhandhak Committee we have some serving with this tail of cast  attached to their names.

Why not publicly  criticized this practice which divid us all by our leaders. There are other things which all are driven from ego or leadership, changing Ardas is a priority than changing all the sikh to be unit under one umberella which was preached bu Shri Guru Nanal Dev Ji , that we all come from one light. Shri Guru Gobind Singh created Khalsa on same ground what was vreated by our first Guru.
Jaspi. 





Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Caste is Brahminical Hinduism.
> NO other religious system has any such thing.
> When a SIKH is Given the Gift of Khandeh batte dee Pahul and becomes a SINGH/KHALSA, He/she is given a BANNA, the 5 kakaars, His/Her Name is changed, place of Birth is spiritually changed to Anandpur Sahib and Parents changed to Guur Gobind Singh ji and Mata Sahib kaur Ji. He/she pledges to DISCARD ALL PREVIOUS habits, beleifs, superstitions etc etc and have Complete Faitha dn Beleif in ONLY the Ten Guurs and SGGS.
> As such a SIKH ahs no more connection with hsi previous...caste/beleifs etc...
> ...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 30, 2009)

NATURE and EVOLUTION....made us "drop" our "TAILS"...so that we can progress ABOVE (monkeys/donkeys...etc)
But i GUESS some of US...do miss our tails....so we re-attach them...and WAVE them about so happily !!!
Sometimes we Go so far as to..LET our TAILS WAG US !!! ( Dog wagging its tail is acceptable...the Tail wagging the dog is WEIRD ..BUT it does happen never the less...Same with SIKHS with TAILS.


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## Hardip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Caste is Brahminical Hinduism.
> NO other religious system has any such thing.
> When a SIKH is Given the Gift of Khandeh batte dee Pahul and becomes a SINGH/KHALSA, He/she is given a BANNA, the 5 kakaars, His/Her Name is changed, place of Birth is spiritually changed to Anandpur Sahib and Parents changed to Guur Gobind Singh ji and Mata Sahib kaur Ji. He/she pledges to DISCARD ALL PREVIOUS habits, beleifs, superstitions etc etc and have Complete Faitha dn Beleif in ONLY the Ten Guurs and SGGS.
> As such a SIKH ahs no more connection with hsi previous...caste/beleifs etc...
> ...


 
Gyanni jee,
What you are saying is perfactly right as far as our Sikh principals are concerned. One should not attach his or her so called caste against one's name. I , myself till 2001, never put the cast to my name Hardip Singh. But then, in 2001, I needed to migrate to Canda. When I submitted my paper for the VISA, it was refused on the ground that the Canadian Govt. has made it mandatery to put your caste / family name / surname after the usual Singh or Kaur. Reason given was that here every Sikh is either Singh or Kaur and it has become realy difficult for them track each and every case or to identify easily the real individuals. This too led me to add my family name of Vohra to my origional name of Hardip Singh and I became to known as Hardip Singh Vohra. 
Sir, pl advice me ; where is my fault in this.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 30, 2009)

Hardeep Ji,
Gurafteh.

NO FAULT JI.... I am NOT the Taliban Sikh type.
I myself have to resort to telling some who persist..so whats you Family LINE..ancestors...and that is DHILLON Jattas of Tallewal Village in Bhatinda...
so per se that is just "info"..nothing less nothing more.. as long as...I dotn go around imagining myself as somehow HIGHER than say a...Ravidassi/Mazhbi/Balmiki from Tallewal village Bhatinda...and expect him to bow to me or lick my feet or something...THAT IS THE "FAULT" and its  avery HUGE ONE..HAUMAII...superiority complex...Ucha Naak Hnakaar..Hankerr...ALL THE BAD COMBIMNATIONS possible...
Somehow..all this ingrained "inferiority Complex" so strong...wehn i visited the Punajb Villages...perfectly GOOD GURSIKHS...who came to do the "safaii...clean the vehrras, take care of the Goha Koorra etc in the VILLAGE HOUSES...were treated as...LOW CLASS..and they ACCEPTED IT.
I was flabbergasted....to say the least...BUt that is REALITY I saw in EACH HOUSE....the cleaning lady/labourer/diharredaar...stood at the Gate..far away..took the food offered while keeping a distance....sat on the floor....and when i protested..the House owner would say..Gyani Ji..tuhanu patta nahin..eh choorreh hah..isteraan hee hah...
THAT IS A FAULT..and BAD. Sikhi failed to STOP THIS....and the Babas with their separate langgars and amrit sansakaars have been spreading it further...

And whats worse..people have "elephant memories..they never forget...
Three "tallewallians"..migrated from tallewal in the early 1940's. One was my Dad Dhillon Jatt ( with just 30 killas to his name in Punjab and just 2500 SQ FOOT in Malaysia (the House we stay in), another was a Banniah who became a Singh to gain entrance to t he malaysian police, and the third was a Chmaar who became a Doctor. 60-7- years later..we are still Dhillon jatts although we have no land and never farmed....the Banniah is still LALA JI...even though he and his garndson also wear dastaar and are 5 kakree sikhs....and the Chmaar is still CHmaar..even though he reached the height of his Medical Profession...if he goes back to Tallewaal..he will be in the Mazhbi Bastee/Quarter...BUT we are still "lords" even though our 30 killas became fragmented..and my relations have to survive by taking other peoples land on Theka...while the Chmaar has many commercial buildings, nearly a thousand acres of valuable land and millions in his bank account........He is still the chmmar from tallewaal.....SIGH...

2. On the Mandatory THIRD Name...imho the Canadians have DENIED having any such ruling. It was the Travcel Agents or Punjabis ON THEIR OWN who created this Bhed Chaal...thats why we have people who are known as...Ruby Dhalla....Majeet SAHOTA...etc wehn it could very well be  Ruby KAUR..Manjeet SINGH... ALL this Surname being common is pure BS... ALL the SINGHS combined in the entire WORLD cannot Match the number of LEES from China....leave out the TANS..the CHANS..etc etc. IF the Chinese have no problems with having so many LEES in a LIST..why should SINGHS have this "problem" ??? At last count there are about 180 Million LEES...Total Singhs are not even close

3. Enterprising SINGHS have come out with a solution...to the MIDDLE NAME/INITIAL problem...
why NOT BREAK UP your anme into THREE parts....Jar Nail Singh is a bit out BUT..Tej Parkash Singh...Rann Inder Singh...etc etc are perfect. IN that way you get to retain SINGH as last anme/Surname and also have a Middle Initial.


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## Hardip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Hardeep Ji,
> Gurafteh.
> 
> NO FAULT JI.... I am NOT the Taliban Sikh type.
> ...


 
Gyanni jee,
Thanks a lot for the advice. At present I have nothing to do with Canada or their policy. With HIS grace I am happily settelled in Delhi. From Today onward, it will be Hardip Singh once again. Thanks for correcting me. I am highly obliged. I am starting today from this forum itself by changing my profile at SPN.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 30, 2009)

Hardip Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

Thank YOU. I really appreciate this gesture. and I am humbled.
May GURU JI always have His Benign Hands over YOU and your family and bestow the Kirpa of Gurparsaad.
I am GLAD that Guru Jis Teachings are followed. Its worth it..every inch of the way. We step forward ONE STEP..and Mera satgur..comes forward 40 MILES to meet us.
Keep in Chardeekalla always....:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## Manisha (May 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> And whats worse..people have "elephant memories..they never forget...
> Three "tallewallians"..migrated from tallewal in the early 1940's. One was my Dad Dhillon Jatt ( with just 30 killas to his name in Punjab and just 2500 SQ FOOT in Malaysia (the House we stay in), another was a Banniah who became a Singh to gain entrance to t he malaysian police, and the third was a Chmaar who became a Doctor. 60-7- years later..we are still Dhillon jatts although we have no land and never farmed....the Banniah is still LALA JI...even though he and his garndson also wear dastaar and are 5 kakree sikhs....and the Chmaar is still CHmaar..even though he reached the height of his Medical Profession...if he goes back to Tallewaal..he will be in the Mazhbi Bastee/Quarter...BUT we are still "lords" even though our 30 killas became fragmented..and my relations have to survive by taking other peoples land on Theka...while the Chmaar has many commercial buildings, nearly a thousand acres of valuable land and millions in his bank account........He is still the chmmar from tallewaal.....SIGH...


 
After reading this part, I was shocked BUT _*not*_ surprised, I admit.. This simply tells us that because caste system originated in India.. It will remain its *place* in India.. Especially if *people like that* remain in there! Like you said, the house owner called him a chor ect despite him achieving a goal to help people and it's _*these*_ elder people of pinds/villages who act as influences upon each village to *remain *caste to *always* be there..

I used to think it was only due to *western culture *that influenced one another and made caste this *"big priority" *as such, but I find it absolutely ridiculous as now it seems as though the elderly are mainly responsible for this influence.. Even the elderly people of my family (who are from India) are in-depthly involved with caste because their/my previous ancestors were - and it's my very famiily (older ones) that _*had*_ encourage the caste system upon myself and my brothers/sisters (the youths of this age) However, that was a long time ago, we've grown up and understood that its.. "" (nothing)

Anyway, my point is, it's the "grown-ups"'s responsibility to ensure that caste isn't spread out.. Which isn't really happening - the amount of debates that I've had (along with brother and sister) with my older family have no effect on them!


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## dalsingh (May 30, 2009)

On a positive note, I have noticed a welcome trend of cross caste marriages in the west. A few have taken place in my family. I also hear some relatives from back home have done the same.....so......


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

Mishi ji

Great words by you, words of honor. Based on my own experiences with times when mis-shapened values from the past and older generations seem to make the world worse and not better, I just want to say this. We have to forgive our parents and grandparents even when they promote negative ideals. They are in some ways helpless in the face of the traditions that raised them. The responsibility to change lies with the children, with you and with me. We can move away from the ideas that keep us in bondage once we become aware that is what is happening. We can keep a different ideal alive.


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## Manisha (May 30, 2009)

Antonia Ji 

They sure do make the world worse.. But yeah, I totally understand that.. And I do forgive them, but I forgive them because they are too old to change - But I'm only speaking about my family in this sense, because they are *VERY* stubborn; they listen to my points and they* know *what I'm saying makes sense and to some extent indirectly agree with me by nodding, but they insist on repeating *false *beliefs.. But I don't mind now, because I can't force them to change this "belief" of theirs (mainly because I tried and failed!) and as long as (like your saying) *we* know what to believe ect, then we're alright.. 

And also, about my continuous point of encouraging others not to "spread" this caste message across, I find it really _*weird*_.

Because me and my friends (sometimes randomers join in) always have discussions about this very issue.. And they're the sort of people who "brag" about caste *this* and *that..* _*BUT*_ then when they're having these sort of in-depth discussions with me - they portray themselves completely differently.. It's as if they *know* it's wrong to believe in it (especially as they're brought up as Sikhs) and even tell *me *that Guru Ji banished it, they know it's stupid, they argue that it doesn't mean anything.. But then they go back to their old ways.. 

*Very* strange..


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

Mishi ji

In the US we don't have caste, but we do have discrimination by race. People of color have been tormented by law and by social codes for centuries. Things changed slowly. Now we have a president who is a person of color. Yet, the hatred continues in all generations, the oldest to the young. IMHO this depth of hatred is learned, and it comes from fear which is senseless but also learned. If one were to play the part of an anthropologist and ask the question, "what do you think would happen if ..... were suddenly eliminated?" the answers would reveal how little connection there is between logic or facts and the reasons for the hatred. I think the change is made one person at a time whenever the awareness, the viveka, is attained and hatred is discovered to be something that destroys life.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

Caste system and other heirarchies in Indian culture goes hand in hand. Like a daughter when she marries has to matha tek to her in laws and jeth and jethani ( older brother in law and his wife)and all other elders where as she does not have to do no such thing  to her parents' relatives. It used to be lableled as respect but one can see it a form of subordination- a soft slavery.

I do not allow anyone to Math tek me although due to old traditions ingrained in my psyche, I do matha tek to my elders. My son Trimaan, 13, on his own hates the same. He tells his elders that, " I will matha tek only if it makes you feel superior". Many of my relatives have stopped expecting that from him, although with a frown. I will not force him to do it.

So, once we take this out and delve more in Gurbani, we will be able to eliminate the caste system too. In order to do that we should emulate our Gurus in naming the Gurdwaras rather than naming after castes or people.

Tejwant Singh


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## Manisha (May 30, 2009)

You are, as always, *spot on* Antonia Ji..


And Tejwant Singh Ji:

Matha tekh is old tradition, like you say.. So it's likely.. It will always be done! As it is done to express *respect* I thought? Mind you, I've heard many stories of inlaws themselves *not* being the kindest of people to daughter in laws *scared* So it could well be "soft slavery"

And Mr Singh Ji, you should know by now, this is what many Indians* love* doing - Frowning! :whisling:

Well that's good, he may be a child but older generations shouldn't force this upon him, and that's a very good reply he gives them! 

And of course your last point is true by all means..


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Caste is Brahminical Hinduism.
> NO other religious system has any such thing.
> When a SIKH is Given the Gift of Khandeh batte dee Pahul and becomes a SINGH/KHALSA, He/she is given a BANNA, the 5 kakaars, His/Her Name is changed, place of Birth is spiritually changed to Anandpur Sahib and Parents changed to Guur Gobind Singh ji and Mata Sahib kaur Ji. He/she pledges to DISCARD ALL PREVIOUS habits, beleifs, superstitions etc etc and have Complete Faitha dn Beleif in ONLY the Ten Guurs and SGGS.
> As such a SIKH ahs no more connection with hsi previous...caste/beleifs etc...
> ...



Interesting that the Caste system works because we are born a certain status because of something we may have done wrong in another life.

Yet we Sikhs do not believe in caste. Does this mean we do not believe that we do bad acts in previous lives? This brings into question the whole concept of Karma.

I strongly believe that the Sikh belief in Karma is not that of the Bramanical type. Our Karma's here and now in this life is what we suffer for and pay for, and therefore being born into a caste has no meaning.

Our concept of reincarnation I believe is more akin to matter cannot be created or destroyed but merely changes form. We are not doomed from birth, because as Sikhi states, if we become God realised (Gurmukh) caste, Jaat Paat has no meaning.


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## Manisha (May 30, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Interesting that the Caste system works because we are born a certain status because of something we may have done wrong in another life.


 
Hmm.. I didn't know that.. But now that I do, I agree with what you're saying.. :yes:


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## kds1980 (May 30, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Caste system and other heirarchies in Indian culture goes hand in hand. Like a daughter when she marries has to matha tek to her in laws and jeth and jethani ( older brother in law and his wife)and all other elders where as she does not have to do no such thing  to her parents' relatives. It used to be lableled as respect but one can see it a form of subordination- a soft slavery.
> 
> I do not allow anyone to Math tek me although due to old traditions ingrained in my psyche, I do matha tek to my elders. My son Trimaan, 13, on his own hates the same. He tells his elders that, " I will matha tek only if it makes you feel superior". Many of my relatives have stopped expecting that from him, although with a frown. I will not force him to do it.
> 
> ...



I had a big problem on this issue.My fathers family do not have any concept of matha tekna and my mothers side all use to do matha tekna.as a child I never did that to my mothers side relatives and my parents never forced me but I always saw that my cousins from mothers side doing it to my parents.Later on I changed my thinking and Started doing this whenever I meet relatives on mothers side.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 30, 2009)

Mishi said:


> After reading this part, I was shocked BUT _*not*_ surprised, I admit.. This simply tells us that because caste system originated in India.. It will remain its *place* in India.. Especially if *people like that* remain in there! Like you said, the house owner called him a chor ect despite him achieving a goal to help people and it's _*these*_ elder people of pinds/villages who act as influences upon each village to *remain *caste to *always* be there..
> 
> I used to think it was only due to *western culture *that influenced one another and made caste this *"big priority" *as such, but I find it absolutely ridiculous as now it seems as though the elderly are mainly responsible for this influence.. Even the elderly people of my family (who are from India) are in-depthly involved with caste because their/my previous ancestors were - and it's my very famiily (older ones) that _*had*_ encourage the caste system upon myself and my brothers/sisters (the youths of this age) However, that was a long time ago, we've grown up and understood that its.. "" (nothing)
> 
> Anyway, my point is, it's the "grown-ups"'s responsibility to ensure that caste isn't spread out.. Which isn't really happening - the amount of debates that I've had (along with brother and sister) with my older family have no effect on them!



Mishi Ji,
Gurfateh.

YES you have hit the nail on its head. Long ago my late Dad used to say...Son when all these "buddeh khundh"...oldies...die off..your GENERATION will be free of all this caste neevahn uchah rubbish...what a surprise...NOW I am past 60..and I am telling my son the same thing...BUT unlike my dads time when we were in cocoons ( our own areas mostly with soem newspapers and radio only..) I live in the IT Age of the Internet..and I see "caste BHOOT" terrifying far and wide...its tentacles are spread so far and deep..so I am no more in ILLUSION that the "caste rubbish" will die with my generation (now the buddeh khundh..oldies)..BUT may continue..Until such a time as and when a GREAT REFORMER or strong broom wallah will come along and sweep it away.... 
IN MALAYSIA we had less of this "caste" thingy..becsue almost everyoen was Jatt and only a sprinkling of cheembas, kambojs and mazhbis etc..too small to really count...BUT we had an even bigger MONSTER tearign us apart..IT was the MAJHA-MALWA-DOABA-MAINDOAB DIVIDE. OUR Gurdwaras were set up on REGIONAL BASIS...Malwaiyan da Gurdwara..Mjhailaan da Gurdwara and Doabian da Gurdawra....and Constitutions stipulated who and from what Zillah could be "memeber" of this and that Gurdwara. FOR THIS REASON.."caste" per se took a backstand...since it was vital for..say Majhails to capture a Gurdwara Parbandh...it didnt matter if you were a cheemba/mazhbi or Jatt..as long as you belonged to a particular Zillah and was their "comrade..pind wallah yaar....
I am GLAD to see that with the coming of the new Generations..INTER MARIAGES between the REGIONS are taking place...and since "Caste" was traditionally on back burner anyway...the new generation sikhs dont care much for that too...BUT UNDER the New Influece of the INTERNET...and all the Instant News about the GILLS and the Dhaliwaals and the Ruby Dalls ..the Manjeet Sahotas in canada Germany UK etc..the Ramgarriahs..the Ahluwalliahs etc etc...Local Youngsters are also going around trying to figure out..WHAT AM I ?? AM I a dahliwaal ?? or ramgharriah ?? These are the questions i get asked daily..So Gyani Ji..what is a cheemba..who are the RAVIDASSIS is the Hot Topic due to Vieanna..How DO YOU actually "recognise" a Ravidassi..a chheemba..a chumaar..???? So HOW do I answer that ??..Next thing i know..a student comes back beaming..I am a Dhillon Gyani Ji.....my grand father told me so...OK here is my NEW ID..Kulwant kaur Dhillon !! SO Back to the FUTURE ?? Back to SQUARE ONE ?? I am LOST....and MORE LOST when  the same KK Dhillon comes back another day and tells me...Gyani ji..you remeber those GHUMIARS that migrated to Canada a few years ago from here...they went there and changed to GILLS....what CHEATERS !! So who told you that ?? my Grandfather..he knows them from the village...These Holidays when we go to Canada I am going to ask their daughter....where she got the GILL name from ?? ..SIGH...SIGH...and more SIGH..this MONSTER is a thousand headed HYDRA..cut off one head..and a hundred grow in that place....sigh...

MY CONCLUSION: ONLY WE CAN kill this. IF we ourselves consciopulsy DECIDE to CUT its HEAD. We can KILL caste..we can KILL DOWRY..we can KILL "suicides" and we can STOP KILLING Daughters...the DECISION IS OURS.


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## dalsingh (May 31, 2009)

Personally I think the caste thing can best be attacked at a family level. I know some people will probably always want to make an issue if their caste but my feeling is that when enough (i..e. the vast majority) of panth does not want jaat, the minority will become powerless. 

That is is what we have to work towards.


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## Manisha (May 31, 2009)

*Gurfateh Gyani Ji..*

*Now when this student said:*
*



			I am a Dhillon Gyani Ji.....my grand father told me so
		
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* 
*We’re referring back to what we said 1 of our main problem is – elders’ influence on youths.. Perfect example.. Do you know the student’s family? As, you said yourself you are an elder – but far from what these illusioned elders are; so I wondered what exactly your reply was..? Forgive me if I’m in wrong, but I would’ve corrected this young girl on everything she said..*


*Firstly when saying:*
*



			I am a Dhillon Gyani Ji.....my grand father told me so
		
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**She should’ve been told that surname is just a name.. It doesn’t define how “high and mighty, wealthy” you are – because all this is earned in life.. ALTHOUGH, the purpose of human life on earth is not this point.. She’s born with the surname but IT does NOT define her in any means!..*


*Also:*
*



			OK here is my NEW ID..Kulwant kaur Dhillon !!
		
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**You don’t become Kaur just like that.. Just because your parents have named you this.. You EARN this beautiful name – along with Singh – by becoming a true follower in the steps of Guru Ji..*


*



			These Holidays when we go to Canada I am going to ask their daughter....where she got the GILL name from ??
		
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**Do indeed ask.. May I predict the answer to be along the lines of “My father/grandfather gave me this name.. I was born with this name.. This is who I am”?*


*Secondly:*
*



			changed to GILLS....what CHEATERS
		
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**Again, I believe the grandfather has influenced the child’s thought to this.. But before I comment further on this, how did they change it if they* *did at all?*


*Thirdly:*
*



			who are the RAVIDASSIS
		
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**Well youths DO in fact become very influenced due to internet resources, so look it up! It’s as if she’s expecting the reply of “You know, those sort of people” *Sigh indeed**


*And Fourthly/Finally:*
*



			How DO YOU actually "recognise" a Ravidassi..a chheemba..a chumaar..???? So HOW do I answer that ??
		
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**Now THAT! Question has totally gobsmacked* *me! *

*BUT, well, Gyani Ji, you simply say the ONLY answer for that:*
*“How did our own Guru Ji’s identify a Ravidassi, Chamar (same thing), Jatt, Tharkan ect? Well, They identified each and every one as………… EQUAL! (Duh)” *

*I guess the best way to answer all the “foolish” questions by people of this age (and before), is: To simply refer to Gurbani (Word of God and Guru Ji’s from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) to teach them FACTS NOT OPINIONS/FALSE INFO!*


*Gyani Ji..*
*



			OUR Gurdwaras were set up on REGIONAL BASIS… FOR THIS REASON.."caste" per se took a backstand
		
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**I’m not sure how you mean.. Our Gurdwaras are not like that :-S.. There are symbols inside and outside of the Gurdwara – to define what religion/(caste I think too) one is.. It may sound stupid, but because I do not mind which Gurdwara I go to (because at the end of the day, so to speak, I matha tekh to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and sit listening to stories of Guru Ji’s, shabads, kirtans, ect – after all that is the point!) I never saw this difference – the way in which Gurdwaras are “allocated” – this was until I went to an Akhand Paath where my cousin said “did you know this is a so and so Gurdwara because of that symbol?” Hmm.. Well I don’t care *




> *and since "Caste" was traditionally on back burner anyway...the new generation **Sikhs** dont care much for that too*


*I think to a certain extent this modern age is slowly but surely allowing/encouraging inter-faith/”caste” (even) marriages – I guess indeed they must be the sort of people who don’t care much for this..*


*



			WHAT AM I ??
		
Click to expand...

**Nobody can tell anyone what they “are” or even force anyone to be someone they’re not.. Like I said my family tried to segregate myself from others by forcing the caste system upon me and trying to engrave this into my mind.. Into me.. Didn’t want me to make friends with certain castes even! But it didn’t work  Because I make the decisions concerning me and the way I want to and should live my life..*

*I’ll be truthful however, like when I mentioned when I was younger – we’re going back 5 years perhaps, I did “brag” I guess – but what only influenced me however, was the fact that all the higher castes had formed this “CLAN”**and I thought well why can’t we do this too..? But then (thankfully) I gave this up because I always knew in my heart it was wrong but thought that was the best way to retaliate.. I do hope Guru Ji forgives me; and also because of the “CLANS” that just seem to be irritatingly, stubbornly, never-ending! Lol.. Atleast I can say I can change for good purposes..*

*Anyway.. An answer to:*
*



			WHAT AM I ??
		
Click to expand...

* 
*It doesn’t matter WHAT you are in terms of whether your name’s this and that.. It’s nothing and you can refer back to my 4th point about the girl..*

*However, WHO you are is much more important! For example, what you are could mean you’re wealthy BUT who you are is another thing altogether – it could be HOW you use WHAT you are.. – My example, when we die, Waheguru’s not going to care about the materialism things of this world i.e. money – but if somebody contributed this wealth to help people in need – then that’s one of the things that Waheguru will care about.. That’s not the whole thing, but a mere example..*


*



			MY CONCLUSION: ONLY WE CAN kill this. IF we ourselves consciopulsy DECIDE to CUT its HEAD. We can KILL caste..we can KILL DOWRY..we can KILL "suicides" and we can STOP KILLING Daughters...the DECISION IS OURS.
		
Click to expand...

**:yes: On a final note, Gyani Ji, I completely agree.. But how do we KILL this? And I do feel the need to state, that because your thinking is completely right and because you are older than lets say me, isn’t it so, you’re more likely to be heard than me? I’m sure you already are but do continue to encourage this ji.. *

*Hope I haven’t said anything out of line.. WJKK WJKF*


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## Randip Singh (May 31, 2009)

Mishi said:


> Hmm.. I didn't know that.. But now that I do, I agree with what you're saying.. :yes:



I maybe wrong Mishi, are there are other views on this?


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## Manisha (May 31, 2009)

Well, Randip Ji,

This can be a subjective subject as to why the caste sytem evolved (if that's what you're asking).. Like you've said, you may be wrong.. Only I know of others interpretations.. So I don't really know myself..

However when you said this:


> Interesting that the Caste system works because we are born a certain status because of something we may have done wrong in another life.


 
I believe it to be interesting.. Because although, my family haven't taught me Sikhi and certain/all aspects of Sikhism directly in a sense, due to me obviously being born into a family of Ravidassia followers.. I've always had an in-depth interest and sometimes I believe it to be passion for Sikhi.. Since, a youngER age than what I am now.. I can't explain what I mean properly.. I've always had this interest, always felt overwhelmed as I learn more and more.. Felt like I could relate to it although I haven't taken what I believe to be a *true step* towards Sikhi.. (As I plan in future to *do* each step purely).. And this is from a young age, continued to now.. And I don't mean it in a bad way, because it's great for me to feel this way, however, I'm not sure how / when / why I began this.. I hadn't really started researching into this more up until recently either..

My point is, it could well be due to something we or I may have done wrong in previous life like you said - which could explain why I feel like this, and want to start again, make things right? Maybe not, maybe so..


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## dalsingh (May 31, 2009)

I find the notion of caste pre-destiny in occupation as ridiculous as a white bricklayer telling me..."It's what I have to do guv, it's cos of me past life..." 

"If I build really straight and neat walls, then maybe I can can come back as a middle class Interior Designer in my next life."

We also have to ask why other societies around the globe haven't place such a deterministic value on hereditary occupations. I mean could you imagine the following conversation between two Englishmen?

Bloke 1: What is you name?
Bloke 2: Smith, and yours?

Bloke 1: Archer. Do you know you descend from blacksmiths man!
Bloke 2: Yes.

Bloke 1: I descend from archers in the army, a higher social position that your lowly blacksmith. You are an inherently low species of human being man! God himself has punished you with this birth!
Bloke 2: Damn!

Bloke 1: So what do you do?
Bloke 2: I am an a engineer. What do you do?

Bloke 1: I am an accountant. But I am still better than you.
Bloke 2: Errr?


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## Manisha (May 31, 2009)

Lol.. I get you too.. Dalsingh.. But like I said this subject is subjective.. I understand all views.. Yet I'm not in any position to say which is which.. i.e. Which is correct/false..


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## BhagatSingh (May 31, 2009)

> I find the notion of caste pre-destiny in occupation as ridiculous as a white bricklayer telling me..."It's what I have to do guv, it's cos of me past life..."





> "If I build really straight and neat walls, then maybe I can can come back as a middle class Interior Designer in my next life."
> We also have to ask why other societies around the globe haven't place such a deterministic value on hereditary occupations. I mean could you imagine the following conversation between two Englishmen?
> 
> Bloke 1: What is you name?
> ...


 
This not what caste is. This is just idiots thinking that they are better than others! 
*Caste does not mean that you are better because of your occupation. *​ 

*Castes* are systems of occupation, endogamy, social culture, social class, and political power, the assignment of individuals to places in the social hierarchy is determined by social group and cultural heritage. Although India is often now associated with the word "caste", it was first used by the Portuguese to describe inherited class status in their own European society.​ 
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste​


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## dalsingh (May 31, 2009)

Ok Bhagat, Let's do this.




> This not what caste is. This is just idiots thinking that they are better than others!





> *Caste does not mean that you are better because of your occupation. *​


 

Underneath the whole concept of the Hindu caste system and its deritives (i.e. the Panjabi one), is the notion of punishment in the forms of low birth. Ranking which clearly denotes superiority and the opposite. Whatever you might imagine it to be in your head, the end result is that it has simply led to people think they are better than others and hatred. Full stop. 

If, theoretically, it wasn't originally designed for this, then it should be scrapped as a failure anyway.​ 




> *Castes are systems of occupation, endogamy, social culture, social class, and political power, the assignment of individuals to places in the social hierarchy is determined by social group and cultural heritage. Although India is often now associated with the word "caste", it was first used by the Portuguese to describe inherited class status in their own European society.*​


 
Thing is, the European version isn't conspicuous for the ingrained, deep set hatred that characterises the Indian version. It essentially amounts to social segregation. I'm sure you know, but the Indian system is called 'varna' which means 'colour'. Many people believe the original form was also a racially separating system.​


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

IMHO..the Caste system was specifically designed and executed by those in "authority" to maintain their rule and superiority. Thus the Low caste Shudras could be perpetually kept down as slaves..without question...and when the "god/punishment" equation was brought in..that made it infinletly easier..these downtrodden masses wouldl just accept it as heavenly orders...AND THEY HAVE DONE SO.
When i went visiting Punjab...the sweeper, the daily labourer, the diharreedaar...happily sat on the floor and touched my feet...and I saw the Bahiyas being given food far away like we do to our DOGS !!
Even my DOG is allowed to approach the dining table/Kitchen.. to look for scraops...BUT the sweeper in Punajb has to take his food at the DOOR...so as not to BHITT the Jatt house !! I NEVER imagined i would see thsi as this si the 21st Century..and having stayed in Malaysia for my entire life and never having practised all this i was so EMBARRASSED. Wonder of Wonders..when i Visited those supposedly Low Caste Bastees.....the INHABITANTS themsleves "acknolwledged" that I was HIGH CLASS and they were LOW CLASS and they rushed to BUY me NEW BHANDDEH to eat in ( although I ahd NEVER met them before..i didnt know them and never exhibited that i was high or low class..BUT they INSISTED that I must use the NEW Bhnannddeh to drink in as..we are neevehn sardar ji...I was invariably given a manjah while they sat on the ground...etc. IN Malaysia even a Beggar will take a seat on any avilable chair while we go look for some food/clothes etc to give him alms...and IF he is invited in as a labourer/plumber.sweeper etc...there is no question of him sitting on the floor etc..he/she will sit on  The same sofa we have guests sit on...
The ENTIRE COUNTRY of INDIA needs a PARADIGM SHIFT...uts not any individual religion/kaums/ problem...

MISHI JI..thansk for your refreshing missive..my sentiments exactly...keep in chardeekalla jios..


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 1, 2009)

DalSingh ji,
I am talking about Caste in general. I know teh Indian Caste System is and most others are ***** beep **** beep******* beep****  beep*******beep **** beep****** beep**** beep****** *********** . 
lol do I make myself clear? 
I am going to bed now, so if you give me few more hours after I wake up, I could write you a small essay on how *a* caste system can be useful in a society.  ... and then you may proceed with your onslaught. :happy:


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## dalsingh (Jun 1, 2009)

> Gyani Ji: The ENTIRE COUNTRY of INDIA needs a PARADIGM SHIFT...uts not any individual religion/kaums/ problem...


 
If anyone should be leading from the front it is Sikhs!! Especially Amritdhari Singhs! Our thing was actually designed to do this but have become like the others. How **** is that. Are we no different?




> Bhagat Singh: I am going to bed now, so if you give me few more hours after I wake up, I could write you a small essay on how *a* caste system can be useful in a society. ... and then you may proceed with your onslaught.


 
Don't be sloppy mundeya. I want you to tell me how having a caste system can be beneficial to Sikh society okay! Bring it on!


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 1, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> Don't be sloppy mundeya. I want you to tell me how having a caste system can be beneficial to Sikh society okay! Bring it on!


Alright! :}{}{}: have patience my friend, have patience.... while you're at it, read up on Darwinian Evolution, you'll need it for the essay.


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## dalsingh (Jun 1, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Alright! :}{}{}: have patience my friend, have patience.... while you're at it, read up on Darwinian Evolution, you'll need it for the essay.


 

You'd better come up with something better than 

_"We can use it to selectively breed the best farmers, tanners, sweepers and carpenters for our society! And make super-farmers, super-tanners , super-sweepers etc etc......"_ 

 lol


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 1, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> You'd better come up with something better than
> 
> _"We can use it to selectively breed the best farmers, tanners, sweepers and carpenters for our society! And make super-farmers, super-tanners , super-sweepers etc etc......"_
> 
> lol


Oh ok you gave me the wrong impression earlier. I thought there were some Singhs who were fed up with the Indian caste system so much that they could never see any good come out of castes.
But lol, you proved me wrong. Thanks

Your comment puts out a valid point. I dont know why you are putting LOL after it. I didnt think of taht actually but its certainly something that can be done in the absense of technology; its something that can improve human societies. But its not so effective, since humans reproduce quite slowly. I dont mean the actual process of reproduction.  Thats lightning fast compared to what I am talking about. LOL Anyways, because we reproduce slowly, we also evolve slowly. So what humans have done is they have started developing technologies with the help of scientific research to fill in where they lack and to improve where they can.

but that phenonmenon of breeding super-whatever can be seen to small degree in the black population in the US. Why do you think black men are generally more muscular than other races? Two reasons, their upbringing, and evolution. The blacks were used to be slaves in the US, and they had originally come from hunter-gatherer communities in Africa (hunter-gatherer e.g of caste system). both require muscle power, therefore...???... you've guessed it... more muscular youth in newer generations.

This could have happened with Sikhs as well because of our history (over a long period oftime). And was probably true for Spartans who were bred (artificial selection as opposed to natural selection in Blacks) for strength.


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## spnadmin (Jun 1, 2009)

Bhagat ji

In the context of breeding anything that is bigger, better and stronger, it is important to make a clear distinction between three ideas: Natural selection (Darwin); inheritance of acquired characteristics (Lamarck); and survival of the fittest (Malthus).

Inheritance of acquired characteristics has been intellectually discredited. Survival of the fittest is a concept from economics not biology -- though it is constantly used incorrectly as if that is what Darwin was explaining. He was not. Natural selection - which claims that certain characteristics are favored by the environment at certain points in time - does not argue that features should be selectively bred out of a species. Rather a wide variety of characteristics are necessary within a species so that, when the environment changes, f*eatures that were not selected earlier* are still available to help a species adapt under new environmental conditions. Thus biological diversity is requisite to species survival. 

The idea that black men are more muscular in and of itself can't be documented scientifically. The notion supports a stereotype that most African-Americans find offensive. And the survival of any "race" (no such thing actually, another 19 th Century European fiction) depends on its genetic diversity.

I doubt that we "breed" farmers, technicians, etc. Rather we probably create political and economic conditions that are favorable for the cultivation and encouragement of individual talent -- unless we live in socially engineered societies that are usually dictatorships, and usually go down the tubes in time. For reasons stated aboe.


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## spnadmin (Jun 1, 2009)

P/S The caste system was probably one of the greatest impediments to economic development in India after liberation. It may have supported social sttability and economic adaptation in India during the Brahminical period and through the raj. But by keeping people locked in homogeneous levels of society prevented diversity of talent and motivation to provide those very variants that promote growth and development under new and challenging environmental conditions. 

Another feather in the turban of Guru Nanak.


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## Manisha (Jun 1, 2009)

*First of all, my pleasure and thank you Gyani Ji..*

*Now..* 



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> and I saw the Bahiyas being given food far away like we do to our DOGS !!


 


> I NEVER imagined i would see thsi as this si the 21st Century..and having stayed in Malaysia for my entire life and never having practised all this i was so EMBARRASSED.


 


> IN Malaysia even a Beggar will take a seat on any avilable chair while we go look for some food/clothes etc to give him alms...and IF he is invited in as a labourer/plumber.sweeper etc...there is no question of him sitting on the floor etc..he/she will sit on The same sofa we have guests sit on...


 
*Like you said, you never imagined to see this type of treatment in 21st Century.. However, I think this doesn't happen in Western countries but without a doubt these LEDC (less economically developed/poor) countries have not changed!*

*Also, I'd like to share a very brief incident regarding this awful treatment in 21st Century.. Not long ago, sometime last year.. I was talking to a friend where he said he didn't really care about caste ect ect.. And as we were discussing this, he began to say something about what his mum had told him and suddenly his face dropped - like he'd been in trouble.. I asked what was wrong and he said he didn't want to tell me because it was wrong/bad and that I might feel offended - because if someone said that to him, he would.. I insisted he tell me - as nothing surprises me those/these days.. And he said that his mum had told him not to make friends with certain (lower) castes.. I understood what he meant based on what my family insisted too BUT she continued on to say that: She would never let a chamar into her house PERIOD.. She said that if there was a chamar lying half-dead outside her house, she wouldn't bring him/her in, may give water/food perhaps but not even touch him..  I was absolutely gobsmacked yet again.. *




> The ENTIRE COUNTRY of INDIA needs a PARADIGM SHIFT...uts not any individual religion/kaums/ problem...


 
*This is like what I was saying before, and as Dalsingh Ji's saying too.. About Amridhari's should be leading this front.. It's elder people who have the correct knowledge, "people in charge" if you like, members of Gurdwaras, Amritdhari's, people of higher authority - in terms of Sikhism; who people WILL listen to - because they're spreading (or should be) the right message.. The messages of the Guru Ji's..*


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## dalsingh (Jun 1, 2009)

Bhagat jio!



> you gave me the wrong impression earlier. I thought there were some Singhs who were fed up with the Indian caste system so much that they could never see any good come out of castes.


 
No this was the right impression! I am one such person. 

Regarding why I don't think caste is a good thing. I think Aad ji made most of the points I was going to. I would just like to underscore the lack of flexibility point more. Just because we come from a line of farmers, blacksmiths, cobblers it doesn't mean that this is what we are best for! Diversity has been built into humans and instead of stifling ability we should have freedom in a society to pursue our abilities.

Imagine, you were not allowed to pursue your art because you had to adhere to your caste duties...would that suck?

Ultimately, the caste thing in India was a very manipulative attempt at rigid social engineering by Brahmins of old. Our quoms diasporic experience, clearly provides evidence (if it were ever needed), that people who are from all types of backgrounds (including so called low ones) can attain high achievements in diverse fields given the opportunity. 

Caste sucks and is not a good idea, period! Let people's talents guide their profession. Let their actions define their status.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 2, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> The idea that black men are more muscular in and of itself can't be documented scientifically.


Why not? We can collect random samples from black communities, and see if inferences can be made about the population. ... Probability and Statistics.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Truth is wherever you live, you are living in a caste system.
Castes have evolved to present day classes: Upper Class, Middle Class and Lower Class.
Although, you have the freedom to go from one to the other, it‘s quite difficult. Each class has its professions, some overlap. “Interclass” marriages are uncommon. There is obviously some level of discrimination.

If you believe in reincarnation, you should have no trouble with the caste system. I mean at one point you are higher caste and another, you are lower caste.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Here's something interesting:
Reforms in Hindu Caste System by J. Ajith Kumar


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## dalbirk (Jun 2, 2009)

Bhagat Singh Ji ,
I've gone through this article & the writer seems to be a eternal RSS Chamcha persisting with something which should not have been there in the first place . This caste system is solely responsible for all ills of Indian society & also thousands years of slavery in past 2000 years .If caste system is such an integral part of Hinduism  then WHY NOT DO AWAY WITH HINDUISM ALTOGETHER & preach the religion of NEW AGE ie. Sikhism in whole of India .


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## spnadmin (Jun 2, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Why not? We can collect random samples from black communities, and see if inferences can be made about the population. ... Probability and Statistics.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Truth is wherever you live, you are living in a caste system.
> Castes have evolved to present day classes: Upper Class, Middle Class and Lower Class.
> ...



Bhagat ji - This is simply incorrect, factually incorrect. Class is not permanent. It may be difficult to break the class barrier in highly stratified societies, but it happens every day. In the caste system (more accurately the varna system) a person was born and died within the varna. The caste system was instituted with the Law of Manu thousands of years ago. Individuals were born and reborn into the SAME caste until all their karma was washed. Only then did they progress to the next stage.

What happened? Those who broke the caste barrier were punished severely. Read or chant the vedas if you were a Chudra -- and you were punished with death. Happen to walk in the shadow of a Brahmin, and the Brahmin had to take a ritual bath. Both high and low were trapped in a depersonalizing social system that paralyzed society. And it is still going on. A 2-year old Dalit girl gang raped because her father supported a local dera. When he sought justice his arms and one leg were cut off. If you and your betrothed want to marry (you are a Jain or a Sikh or Buddhist) you still have to pay a Brahmin for the ritual of walking around Agni.

So things sound hamrless, irrelevant, or maybe even unimportant  in theory -- but in fact a entirely different picture unfolds. Forgive me. I am speaking in a sharp voice. Please dig a little deeper when you make arguments like these.


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## spnadmin (Jun 2, 2009)

Hindu Marriabe Act
http://www.sudhirlaw.com/HMA55.htm

Sex drimes against Dalit women are justified in the minds of many from upper castes. Read on: 

http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd[157]=x-157-560023

Caste difference contributes to violence against Dalit women – Central India  Women News Network – WNN

This is a far cry from our Guru and sants risking their own lives to rescue the daughters of Brahmins from mughal hordes, only to be "busted" later by same.

Anyway, this is a digression. The topic is Caste and Sikhs.  Thanks, aad0002


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## jasi (Jun 2, 2009)

SAT SRI AKAL jI.
Please read the history first who created the divisions of the society. It was invading Aryan who conquered the people in Indus valley so called Tamil in today's India.
Manu set up this system to rule the society his political ways which became one of the worst degrading system to isolate and divide each community to communicate .Chanykia used it to the fullest as authority to rule being home minister to guide the present kings. .
The worst things not to mentioned here were done to lower cast during many centuries..Please wake up. There is new law exist now since last three years  if you call these so call low cast people by their names ,you can go for 6 month jail without any bail.You are still commenting about what good can bring the cast system. 
OUR GURUS REMOVED THE CAST SYSTEM ONCE FOR ALL SAYING WE ALL COME FROM ONE LIGHT.
The system served nothing but divisions and hatred and you are talking about benefits of cast system and comparing to the slavery of Innocent people by the western society.They rounded up them these uneducated human being (slaves )and make a trainagular tradi by selling them to different countries.

It is so shameful to mention such a inhuman treatments done to them and justify bu y Darwin theory or what . Where one should feel proud of GURUS who shun all these practices.
They took the maximum of our uneducated society and ruled us more than 200 years by dividing us all and you are supporting the cast system. Look at the Sikhism it self is in many groups  today .If you acll aany person who looks like a sikh BHAI SAHIB . he will ask you in return if you know him. We forgoten that all sikhs are  brothers to each others. Is it not enough to teach us this lesson to be one and practice the truth what is written in GUR GRANTh SAHEB JI and it is accessible to all human beings regardless of any tail attached.
BHUL CHUK MAF.
Jaspi 


This is just for all the people's attention  who are sharing this forum.



aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> In the context of breeding anything that is bigger, better and stronger, it is important to make a clear distinction between three ideas: Natural selection (Darwin); inheritance of acquired characteristics (Lamarck); and survival of the fittest (Malthus).
> 
> ...


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## spnadmin (Jun 2, 2009)

Jaspi,

You are "tops" in my book for this comment. :happy:

Antonia


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 2, 2009)

GURU JI didnt "breed" any stronger..tougher..sikhs...

Guru Ji took whatever Human resource He had..and moulded that into the Best Fighting Force that gave the Fully trained Mughals professional soldiers a run for their money...
When Guru Ji first wanted his sikhs to fight..they told Guru Ji....Guru Ji..we are merely halwais, farmers, ordinary folks..we havent held a knife much less wield a sword..all we have held are ploughs and karrchhes to stir halwa and barfee..

Guru Hargobind Ji fought and WON all four battles foisted on Him and the Sikhs...Guru Jis son..Teg Bahadur wieded the sword so bravely in one of these....
Later these same SIKHS fought the Million Man army of Aurengzeb most successfully...defeating larger armies..until Sawa lakh se Ek larraon became REALITY. Baba Bnada Singhs armies were small..and so were all the SIKH armies that finally won over the entire Punjab up to ladakh Kasmir Afghanistan Borders....these same Siksh fought the British so well...they began to call sikhs a Martial RACE !! BUT this Martial Race was the very SAME Human Resource already existing BUT SLAVES under the Msulims for a THOUSAND YEARS !!!
 TODAY..the very same RACE..same food, same build, same language etc etc....BUT DIFFERENT RELIGION, RELIGIOUS ETHOS....DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEM...exists in BOTH PUNJABS..one Lahore and the other Chandigarh...but compare the two and see the vast difference...in economics, crop yields, etc etc..the SIKH Farmer, the SIKH Soldier, the SIKH Warrior.the SIKH MIgrant..is invariably the BETTER of the two....WHAT is the SECRET INGREDIENT ?? GURSIKHI...GURMATT...GURBANI of SGGS and the GURUS is what is different.

Now we are falling BACKwards..into the PIT the Gurus took us OUT OF..we are adopting the BIPRAN REETS..the Value sytem of the Bippar..Brahmin...the Pitfalls of the Bippar...rakhis, lohrees, diwalis, rakshabandans, fasts, karva chauths, and holis and all sangrands pooransmashis good days bad days..shubh days marrey din..astrology, jantars mantars,,holy babas mahapurshses curses and asherwaads of vehlarr babas yogis....masaans and graveyards we pooj..we pooj and chrra chadars at muslim graves...we do one and thousand useless rituals..and FORGET FORSAKE GURBANI..that MADE US LIONS out of MICE !!

WE NEED to URGENTLY GO BACK TO GURBANI and our ROOTS..or we are dead....buried in the deep ocean of the Bippar....floating like loaths..dead bodies...:}--}::shy::}--}::shy::}--}::shy::idea::idea:


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## dalsingh (Jun 2, 2009)

> GURU JI didnt "breed" any stronger..tougher..Sikhs...
> 
> Guru Ji took whatever Human resource He had..and moulded that into the Best Fighting Force that gave the Fully trained Mughals professional soldiers a run for their money...


 
So true.


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## roopsidhu (May 16, 2010)

SSA
Caste system in sikhism: why ?
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE ANSWER IS :-
There is no caste system in the sikhism. The one we are living with having caste system is not sikhism. The sacred idealogy of the sikhism has been hijacked by opportunists. Anyone having belief in caste system can be a True Sikh.
Do not loose heart there are lot of sikhs like you who do not believe in caste system. They are the real sikhs and there are a lot.
Roopsidhu


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## BhagatSingh (May 16, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Bhagat ji - _This is simply incorrect, factually incorrect. Class is not permanent. It may be difficult to break the class barrier in highly stratified societies, but it happens every day. In the caste system (more accurately the varna system) a person was born and died within the varna._ The caste system was instituted with the Law of Manu thousands of years ago. Individuals were born and reborn into the SAME caste until all their karma was washed. Only then did they progress to the next stage.
> 
> What happened? Those who broke the caste barrier were punished severely. Read or chant the vedas if you were a Chudra -- and you were punished with death. Happen to walk in the shadow of a Brahmin, and the Brahmin had to take a ritual bath. Both high and low were trapped in a depersonalizing social system that paralyzed society. And it is still going on. A 2-year old Dalit girl gang raped because her father supported a local dera. When he sought justice his arms and one leg were cut off. If you and your betrothed want to marry (you are a Jain or a Sikh or Buddhist) you still have to pay a Brahmin for the ritual of walking around Agni.
> 
> So things sound hamrless, irrelevant, or maybe even unimportant in theory -- but in fact a entirely different picture unfolds. Forgive me. I am speaking in a sharp voice. Please dig a little deeper when you make arguments like these.


Naryanjot Kaur ji, nowhere in my response have I given faulty information, the kind that you are refuting here (I put it in Italics). In fact, I said the same thing. 

However, there is (was) one problem with our conversation. You are specifically talking about the Hindu Caste System, which is horrific I agree, while I am talking about the idea of caste or class.


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## spnadmin (May 16, 2010)

Bhagat ji

This is what you said, "Truth is wherever you live, you are living in a caste system.
Castes have evolved to present day classes: Upper Class, Middle Class  and Lower Class.
Although, you have the freedom to go from one to the other, it‘s quite  difficult. Each class has its professions, some overlap. “Interclass”  marriages are uncommon. There is obviously some level of discrimination." 
 
It is wrong. Social class is not an evolved form of caste. Social class has existed in societies where there is no history of caste whatsoever, with caste being in the case of India historically wound up in thousands of years of religious belief, with ethical, economic connections. For example, the craft guilds of Medieval Europe were for their time a "class" in the social organization of European societies. They were even hereditary, with sons born into a craft. But they were nothing like caste where there are mythic, ethical, religious or divine association. Example, the case between Brahmin and shudra. There were no instructions that a shudra be killed if caught reciting the vedas.  Class and caste are two different things. They are similar in that they are both forms of social organization and hierarchy. That is what they have in common. I think  you have taken a kernel of similarity, a shared feature, and have overgeneralized from it.


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## BhagatSingh (May 16, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji
A
Let me say this again:


> However, there is (was) one problem with our conversation. *You are specifically talking about the Hindu Caste System, which is horrific I agree, while I am talking about the idea of caste or class.*


 
I am referring to 1a while you are referring to 2. Obviously I am not picking small similarities and overgeneralizing.
Caste and Class mean pretty much the same thing, except that class is used for objects as well. When talking about Hinduism then of course, Caste is attached to a historical baggage.
This is the definition of Caste from Dictionary.com



> 1.
> _Sociology_. a. *an endogamous and hereditary social group limited to persons of the same rank, occupation, economic position, etc., and having mores distinguishing it from other such groups.*
> 
> b. any rigid system of social distinctions.
> ...


 
Here's the def for class:


> 1.
> a number of persons or things regarded as forming a group by reason of common attributes, characteristics, qualities, or traits; kind; sort: _a class of objects used in daily living. _
> 2. a group of students meeting regularly to study a subject under the guidance of a teacher: _The class had arrived on time for the lecture. _
> 
> ...


----------------continued-----------------------------


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## spnadmin (May 16, 2010)

Bhagat ji

If your reply to me is not a perfect example of over-generalization, then Nohting I can say will convince you.

Let us add the image of a pool table where all the points above are like ***** banging the rails, and nothing sinks in a pocket. Sorry to be this blunt.


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## BhagatSingh (May 16, 2010)

Before I continue, Narayanjot Kaur ji, 
you once mentioned "Socratic.." in our previous discussion. Coincidentally, I had at the time enrolled in a course on him, which I am now studying in, this month. It seems my way of conversing is very similar to that of Socrates.

Anyways,
--------------------------------
B
My point was that Castes are here to stay, whether they persist in the form of "Hindu Caste" or what you call "Class". The Hindu Caste system obviously had built-in discrimination. The present day Castes don't but there is still discrimination. In the west, there might not be discrimination but prejudices still exist. 

The comment containing Darwinian Evolution has been distorted beyond repair so I won't even try to explain that.
----------------------------------------
C
Solution:
One can't rid of the whole Hindu caste system but one can slowly change the system towards betterment. Hindu Caste system is tied to religion and religion is tied to people's most deepest feelings. 

In Sikhism, there is a place for caste (class) but merely as labels. We've discussed previously that Guru Sahibs didn't reject class (castes) but the Hindu caste system which carries the horrific ideas you mentioned, Narayanjot ji. 

With that said, there exists those individuals who are Sikh (orthodox or not) that do discriminate people based on castes, and there are individuals who are Hindu (orthodox or not) that do the same. So clearly religion is not the answer, referring to Dalbirk ji's post.

Yet, there exists those individuals who are Sikh (orthodox or not) yet do reject the Caste System, and there are individuals who are Hindu (orthodox or not) that do the same.
How can individuals following the same religion to the same degrees differ like that? If we could find out what makes them different, we could use that to fight the Hindu Caste System.

I propose the difference is actually a move away from religion, where the orthodox (because they are attached to their particular religion) justify their values by interpreting verses with a secular (unconcerned with any particular religion) mode of thought and educated background. Those without that secular mode of thought and educated background, read the same verses and see something different.
Thus the solution is secular thought (critical thinking) with education, from childhood, not a change in religion or following religion more closely or even giving up religion.


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## BhagatSingh (May 16, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> If your reply to me is not a perfect example of over-generalization, then Nohting I can say will convince you.
> 
> Let us add the image of a pool table where all the points above are like ***** banging the rails, and nothing sinks in a pocket. Sorry to be this blunt.


Maybe I lack the ability to understand or you lack the ability to convince or both, but I don't see it as over-generalization. I see it as using two different definitions.

EDIT: Referring to previous comment, I made several arguments, I think if we kept them separate, the discussion will be much cleaner and you might not have to use a "sharp voice".


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## Seeker9 (May 16, 2010)

An interesting read!

I would like to offer a few thoughts:

1) Whilst the origins of this problem are in religion, it's manifestation now has gone beyond religion and sunk it's tentacles deep into the culture and psyche of the population. So I would suggest religion alone is not the answer and not everyone may be that religious anyway to be affected in the way you suggest. Generally, I suspect older generation people in higher castes are keen to maintain their status and will continue to do so by instilling the same bigoted behaviours and norms with their children

2) Evoluton??? Must confess this is not a link I have come across before in similar discussions. As I think Narayanjot Ji correctly noted earlier, the caste system also focusses on colour. I would suggest there is no evolutionary driver 
for someone in a village to be higher caste and fair skinned as opposed to someone else in the same village of a lower caste who is darker skinned. So, may I suggest we don't confuse evolutionary processes that occur over epochs of time with genetics and the long-term impact of marriages and births within specific geographical areas.

3) In my humble opinion the only way to tackle this issue is in the same way as racism; through confronting it head on and education and hopefully over successive generations, we may eventually be rid off this once and for all...not in my lifetime though!


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## BhagatSingh (May 17, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> An interesting read!
> 
> I would like to offer a few thoughts:
> 
> ...


Ah, its great that you agree with me! Now two questions arise:
1) What does it mean to have "good" education?
2) How can we bring education to those who don't receive it?

I reckon that since the second one is economic, I won't do justice to it if I attempt to answer it. But the first one is philosophical in nature. What does good education mean?
It should be clear that many of the people who still believe in the caste system are educated to some degree. How can we improve the education so that it provides them with the right tools to fight things like caste system and racism?


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## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

SSA,
The good education here is not degrees of different diciplines. I like to put it in a way that that instead of good education there is a flow of bad education ( specially from different religious cheats, cults, deras or so called babas). They are the one who do not want the caste system to vanish because they are playing with the sentiments of the masses on the names of castes and running there businesses.
I have personally noticed that many so called educated people with PG degrees or higher are so impressed by Thagg babas that they only listen to these babas.
Unless these babas are corrected, unless babas try to end the caste system, it will remain as it is.
Lets hope that waheguru will give some good education (summat) to these thaggs.
Roopsidhu


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## BhagatSingh (May 18, 2010)

roopsidhu said:


> SSA,
> The good education here is not degrees of different diciplines. I like to put it in a way that that instead of good education there is a flow of bad education ( specially from different religious cheats, cults, deras or so called babas). They are the one who do not want the caste system to vanish because they are playing with the sentiments of the masses on the names of castes and running there businesses.
> I have personally noticed that many so called educated people with PG degrees or higher are so impressed by Thagg babas that they only listen to these babas.
> Unless these babas are corrected, unless babas try to end the caste system, it will remain as it is.
> ...


Roop ji
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that good education is just getting rid of bad education. But you aren't using bad education to mean education, are you? Because what the Babas are telling people isn't education but knowledge that isn't factual, which is taken to be factual by people. In reality its nonsense. So getting rid of the source of the nonsense is your solution to the problem?
Have you heard the saying: _You can kill a man but not his ideas_... or something to this effect?
You obviously aren't proposing to kill anybody! (THough I must acknowledge a Sikh militant might be inclined to do so...) But getting rid of the person somehow won't rid you of the idea.
I believe the saying is true because ideas aren't killed by "killing" or "ridding of" or correcting their source. They are killed through argumentation. Formulating counter-arguments to counter and undermine the undesirable ideas.


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## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

SSA,
Bhagatsingh ji from where  you brought the idea of killing some one. I have clearly written " Unless these babas are corrected, unless babas try to end the caste system.
Correcting does not mean killing. Why I brought these babas into discussion is because maximum of our uneducated people have blind faith in babas and they obey babas blindly. So if babas ( if they really wish) will start preaching against the cast system, it will be much more effective in case of masses because most of the people are addicted to the orders of babas blindly. So this blind faith can be used against caste system.
And please permit me to say that nowadays the socalled educated people are worsely struck in caste system than ordinary masses.


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## BhagatSingh (May 18, 2010)

Roop ji,
I request you to read my reply again. Each and every word. I feel you didn't understand what I actually said.



> And please permit me to say that nowadays the socalled educated people are worsely struck in caste system than ordinary masses.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


I disagree with the last sentence but you have my permission to say it. Lol no you don't need anyone's permission. If you can provide reasons for why you think so then I can put it under scrutiny.
With education we are trying to free people from Babas altogether, which in itself is an issue.


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## spnadmin (May 18, 2010)

BhagatSingh said:


> Roop ji,
> If you can provide reasons for why you think so then I can put it under scrutiny.



That is the choice of roopsidhu ji..whether he wishes to elaborate and whether he wishes to be placed under scrutiny. Narayanjot Kaur


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## Seeker9 (May 18, 2010)

It is harder to change behaviours in adults. It is easier to mould behaviours in the young.
Re the education question then, I suppose this could be tackled in India if it was made part of the curriculum from Year One all the way through to the end of High School

Outside India, such an approach is unlikely to ever occur and we need to rely on each other to spread the word be that face-to-face or through excellent fora such as SPN

It is very difficult to be completely rid off people who want to cultivate and take advantage of the caste system in the same way you will never quite get rid off all racists on the planet...to err is human and humans are full of prejudices

But that's no reason not to make the effort and make some progress!


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## BhagatSingh (May 18, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> That is the choice of roopsidhu ji..whether he wishes to elaborate and whether he wishes to be placed under scrutiny. Narayanjot Kaur


Yes of course! why mention this lol?


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## BhagatSingh (May 18, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> It is harder to change behaviours in adults. It is easier to mould behaviours in the young.
> Re the education question then, I suppose this could be tackled in India if it was made part of the curriculum from Year One all the way through to the end of High School
> 
> Outside India, such an approach is unlikely to ever occur and we need to rely on each other to spread the word be that face-to-face or through excellent fora such as SPN
> ...


Well Seeker ji,
If you read my response to Roop ji, I am against getting rid of people. Whether its by killing, or by removing them from society with other methods or even by correcting their views. Reason why is that the idea of Caste system will still lurke around, unless the idea itself is targetted.

There are parts of India where there is no education. There are parts where there is. Caste system is everywhere. I think that it has not been targetted through the education process so far. People aren't given the skills they need to "rip" apart these barriers. 
One thing that immediately comes to mind is that societal norms are challenged in Canadian schools while they are not in India. The teachers here put some doubt on those norms. They challenge them, once you start thinking they stop and move on. I think this on its own (as simple as it is) is quite effective as the child won't take those norms as rigid set of laws as he/she grows up.


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## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

SSA
Originally quoted by bhagat sing ji
If you can provide reasons for why you think so then I can put it under scrutiny.
First of I think that the babas and deras are contributing in keeping the cast system intact. Its the fact that babas has followers educated as wel as uneducated. In the educated catagory I have seen professors, lawers, judges etc also.
Uneducated masses following babas is very bad thing but educated lot having blindfaith in babas is the worst thing because we do not expect it from the educated lot. Thats why I say that the "so called educated people are worsely struck in caste system".
Bhagat ji.. all the writers in these threads are expressing their views. Some one may agree with these views and others may not, Thats how discussions starts. My english language may not be as good as of yours but still I think that all the writers shouls respect each other. I have never requested to keep my views under scrutiny then the question of If and then does not arise. May be I should not have been written so straight-forward but think we all should watch our attitute while commenting.
Hope you will not mind.
bhul chuk maaf
roopsidhu


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## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

Quoted by bhagat singh ji
If you read my response to Roop ji, I am against getting rid of people. Whether its by killing, or by removing them from society with other methods or even by correcting their views. Reason why is that the idea of Caste system will still lurke around, unless the idea itself is targetted
Bhagat ji show me where I have written that we have to get rid of people by killing or removing them from society. Please keep the discussion clean based on the written replies not on the assumptions. 
Roopsidhu


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## BhagatSingh (May 18, 2010)

OK it seems as if we have two misunderstandings. No worries though, this is a discussion, as you said. Let's clear them up and get the discussion moving forward. 
1. You never said but I did. and I acknowledged that you didn't because I saw this coming: 





> You obviously *aren't* proposing to kill anybody! (THough I must acknowledge a Sikh militant might be inclined to do so...)


 This is why I said to go back and read my reply again. I had it in there. 
But my point is that even if the source isn't there, the idea will stay. Any method used to get rid of the source, whether one corrects it (like you suggested Roop ji) or whether one kills the source (you didn't suggest this but it happens e.g. taliban), will not get rid of the idea. Becaseu you can't get rid of the idea like that, targetting the source is a bad strategy. 

2. You didn't request to have your views under scrutiny but I said I will examine them closely if you can provide reasons that support what you said.
Scrutiny: (examination) the act of examining something closely
------------------------------
Ok I hope that clears things up. Now to examine your reasons,thanks for providing them :


> First of I think that the babas and deras are contributing in keeping the cast system intact. Its the fact that babas has followers educated as wel as uneducated. In the educated catagory I have seen professors, lawers, judges etc also.
> Uneducated masses following babas is very bad thing but educated lot having blindfaith in babas is the worst thing because we do not expect it from the educated lot. Thats why I say that the "so called educated people are worsely struck in caste system".


I agree!! I addressed this in my response to Seeker ji.
Ok waiting for reply now.

by the way, my english isn't very good either, I am trying to improve it


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## roopsidhu (May 19, 2010)

SSA
Bhagat ji, I told you that my english in not that good. But I am sure we are not in the thread to examin others. I think examining and discussing are two entirely different aspects. Any how I am participating the threads being student ( learner ) not being the examiner.
Thanks for everything.
Roopsidhu


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## Seeker9 (May 19, 2010)

May I also add my apologies for incorrect use of language if I suggested violence towards others ....although I believe this concern has now been addressed ;0)

Roopsidhu Ji - well said Sir!

BhagatSingh Ji - are you still waiting on clarification from me on anything as I don't have much to add to my last post

Thanks


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## spnadmin (May 19, 2010)

Everyone's English is just fine, and for that matter it is better than the written English of more than half of the graduates from US secondary schools. So apologies are not necessary.


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## BhagatSingh (May 19, 2010)

roopsidhu said:


> SSA
> Bhagat ji, I told you that my english in not that good. But I am sure we are not in the thread to examin others. I think examining and discussing are two entirely different aspects. Any how I am participating the threads being student ( learner ) not being the examiner.
> Thanks for everything.
> Roopsidhu


Roop ji,
I am not sure exactly why this is a problem. I feel like having to defend myself unnecessarily on this issue.
Examining is part of discussion. Once I examine what your views (and their reasons) are, I can discuss them.


> Examine: (analyze) consider in detail and subject to an analysis *in order to discover essential features or meaning*


--------------------------------------
Narayanjot ji,
I think we are witnessing how problems can arise on the thread if terms aren't defined beforehand. I understand now what you told me a while back!


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## BhagatSingh (May 20, 2010)

Seeker ji, 
No one suggested violence to others as a solution so far on this thread. I was merely addressing this ,without attributing it to anyone on the thread. I felt I had to add it in my comments because of what's happening recently, with militants going around killing those people whose ideas the militants want to suppress.

You clarification is not required but I responded to your comment and waiting for a response from you now.


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## spnadmin (May 20, 2010)

BhagatSingh said:


> Narayanjot ji,
> I think we are witnessing how problems can arise on the thread if terms aren't defined beforehand. I understand now what you told me a while back!



Well it is easy to get back into alignment. Here are the opening statements of jaspi ji who began this thread:



> CAST SYSTEM IN SIKHISM IF IT IS ACCEPETED  OR ALLOWED.
> 
> 
> WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA AND WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.
> ...




So now for purposes of finding common ground, shared meanings, one has only to review all one has said on this thread. Then, ask - Are my comments relevant to the problem as Jaspi ji framed the problem?  

If there are places where the meanings of words are unclear, then ask for clarification and more detail.


The last paragraph strikes me as an area that has not been addressed yet. If there is agreement that Sikhism and Sikh are serous about the evils of caste, then have we done enough of the right things to guide our young according to Guru Nanak's understanding of dharma?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


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## roopsidhu (May 20, 2010)

Bhagat singh ji quoted
I am not sure exactly why this is a problem. I feel like having to defend myself unnecessarily on this issue.
Examining is part of discussion. Once I examine what your views (and their reasons) are, I can discuss them.
Bhagat ji,
I have read,gone through or studied (not examined) your reply and reached to the following conclusion :-
Let's move on to the topic of the thread because that is more important than these things. All of us here are trying to participate in constructive discussions for the betterment of our society. let's spare our time, energy and vocabulary for the real purpose.
Roopsidhu


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## BhagatSingh (May 20, 2010)

Roop ji
Upon further examination  I agree with your words.

Ok let's keep going.
---------------
Narayanjot Kaur ji
You said the following has not been addressed.


> I humbly suggest this where SPN philosophy should be all about to spread our faith for our growing youths that we are who believes in Sikhism with considering where he has come from as long as he is a human being.


I touched on this somewhat in the second part of my two part reply to you here:http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25184-caste-system-in-sikhism-why-6.html#post126713
I said there that religions won't help the situation but that can be contested. If we say that Sikhism will help Sikhs break free from the caste system, meaning that a particular religion DOES help... then there are still some limitations of "religion alone" approach.
Let me explain:
I said that education is the solution. To this religion can be added to supplement. The ONLY religion that is really going to supplement is Sikhism because of its stance against the caste system. But why is spreading Sikhism by itself, limited? It is limited because it doesn't have a reach beyond Sikh circles. I don't think you agree that we should convert everyone who believes in the caste system to Sikhism in order to cure this disease. So in order to do _sarbat da bhala, _education is going to be a valuable weapon in this fight against caste system. and you are right Sikhs have done their part here, at least in the West but in the East we might need to do more.

And from here we were discussing what contitutes a good education because there are those people who are educated to a certain degree but aren't able to fight the caste system.
I said in addition to the normal education that is going on in India if teachers could create doubt among students about social norms, that might help break down the rigidity of the caste system. Let's continue on from here then?


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## Seeker9 (May 20, 2010)

I agree Education is key but like I said earlier, it would ideally be a sustained process from a young age throughout all years of the school curriculum

As for adults, they've already fully developed their views and beliefs so it will be much harder

We have to challenge those views and keep on spreading the word in any way we can including through fora like these which are enjoying a growing membership​


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## roopsidhu (May 20, 2010)

quoted by bhagat singh
Upon further examination  I agree with your words
To become examiner one must have been a good student first.This will be my last reply to your posts unless the right attitute is shown anf if you can not, then please let's stop refering our posts to each other, there are lots of other constructive points and people on the threads than just wasting our time like this.
bhul chuk maaf
roopsidhu


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## gursikhi.jeevan (May 30, 2010)

There is no caste system in sikhism.


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## roopsidhu (May 30, 2010)

SSA,
Yes there is no caste system in sikhism but its very disturbing to accept that "the caste system exists in many sikhs.
But forums lke this may play very important role to eradicate the caste system.
Roopsidhu


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