# Bad Translations And Interpretations-how Do They Affect Us?



## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2015)

I have two videos to illustrate a point, first one, Harry Potter, complete with translations






Secondly, The entire episode of red dwarf where Kryton the robot learns it is his last day, the relevant scene starts at around 6 minutes, hilarious


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2015)

I knew I posted this somewhere!


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## chazSingh (Jul 27, 2015)

that's the beauty of Gurbani...it tells us that even an uneducated person can realize God...

i would say, to 'love' one requires no degrees and intellect...love comes from a deeper place...

so if you get the main gist of Gurbani...put whatever you can into practice....God Will feel the Love...God is the Love...if ones intentions are real and selfless...God does the rest...any mis-translations will eventually be revealed and slowly it will all make sense...

just my humble opinion..

god bless ji.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 27, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> that's the beauty of Gurbani...it tells us that even an uneducated person can realize God..


 Can you enlighten me what is realizing of God and its link with uneducated?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 28, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> that's the beauty of Gurbani...it tells us that even an uneducated person can realize God...
> 
> i would say, to 'love' one requires no degrees and intellect...love comes from a deeper place...
> 
> ...



in that case why don't we just read the Koran?


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## chazSingh (Jul 28, 2015)

harry haller said:


> in that case why don't we just read the Koran?



harry ji,

in your own words you have stated you don;t read or have read much of Gurbani anyway...

therefore please go ahead and read the Koran...there is truth amongst many of the worlds religions...so i'm sure some positivity will come from reading the bible, koran, SGGS Ji and anything else that inspires you to think about what this shizzle we called creation is all about in the big scheme of things 

i think it is important to try to understand Gurbani and get the correct translations or as close to them as possible...especially to set the sail in the correct direction...

for example....gurbani states very clearly....Waheguru is within us...in the gurdwara we call the human body....so the sail can be set in this direction

the Wind however we cannot control...it will control many aspects of our journey...and that wind is Waheguru and it'll start taking us in the right direction anyway...it is ok not to know everything or not being a scholar in Gurbani....the love and intention of the seeker is the most important...

Just my humble opinion based on my own experiences thus far...i am indebted to the souls that have worked tirelessly to translate...even if they are not 100% correct, they pointed me in the right direction...and i can never thank them enough.

god bless ji


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## Original (Jul 28, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> harry ji,
> 
> in your own words you have stated you don;t read or have read much of Gurbani anyway...
> 
> ...



Hey Chaz

If you can....in this life, learn gurmukhi and then taste the sweet, soft, mournful melodies of Gurbani - blow your mind ! Reading it out aloud in its native marinated flavour, in raag form, resonance sounds that you could pitch high n low, self-adjust frequencies to harmonise inner rhythm, is what I call - a-ha moments. Having it spun-off any tava [translation through agency] loses "original" flavour, in my view.

Check out page 658 SGGSJ - this one is an all time fav "lovers rock" - to be sung on valentines day [14 Feb]. Guru Ravidas composed it thus: *ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ Translation: If thou art beautiful mountain O' lord then I'm pea{censored}.* Look at the metaphor and the simile used to express relationship.
*     LOVE
Analogy used:* Clouds clog-up near mountain and it rains, pea{censored} senses this in advance and displays the divine shape of Omkara [sound of divine love] when it spreads its feathers and dances
*
ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ* II *Translation: If thou art moon then I'm chokora [a bird said to be in love with the beauty of the moon and gaze constantly at it].*

Then Ravidas Ji goes on to say .....*ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ
Translation: thou art my true love with thee I'm attached; with thee attached I'm with the world detached.

Mera pyara veer* - just imagine for a mo if you were to soak it neat without dilution [translation] - would you be busy typing or skyping solo!

Love n leave - till another time.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 28, 2015)

Original said:


> Check out page 658 SGGSJ - this one is an all time fav "lovers rock" - to be sung on valentines day [14 Feb]. Guru Ravidas composed it thus: *ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ Translation: If thou art beautiful mountain O' lord then I'm pea{censored}.* Look at the metaphor and the simile used to express relationship.
> * LOVE
> Analogy used:* Clouds clog-up near mountain and it rains, pea{censored} senses this in advance and displays the divine shape of Omkara [sound of divine love] when it spreads its feathers and dances
> *
> ...


The question is, have understood what guru sahib is trying to say. While watching discovery channel, I noticed pea{censored} has got nothing to do with cloud, rain or mountain. Pea{censored} is not dancing happily because of the rain. It is false assumption. Pea{censored} think because of cloud or rain spread his wing to attract female pea{censored}. It means it is not sach preet but ahduri preet(false one sided) and is just taking advantage to attract morni -   infatuation - an act  female will be attracted. Pea{censored} has no love with cloud but with female pea{censored}. Similarly partridge has no link with moon. Partiridge think with the light of moon his chakori will come out.

Similarly the reason I raised question to chazji was that,  on one hand Guru sahib is stressing on 'khojat khojat ...searching and researching, karta purakh a creative and is it possible same Guru will discourage sikh to go for higher studies by saying whether you study or not, just utter waheguru. Can a doctor perform operation without understanding the technique. Similarly can we live truthful life by just uttering 'waheguru'. You go to any top brand raagi and see by yourself how egoistic is he. This pankti "Parhyiaa Unparhyia parm gatt pawei" [educated, uneducated; will be blessed] how conveniently has been used to distort the meaning of  gurbani. Let us see in which context it has be written by contemplating on the central ideaor the pivtol point, the rahao, ' bin navai jhutha dhan maal' the guru sahib is  referring to worldly wealth and assests' thus meaning of the pankti automatically becomes clear 'whether you make riches or not, it matters not so long as you 'LIVE TRUTHFUL life'.


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## chazSingh (Jul 28, 2015)

Original said:


> Hey Chaz
> 
> If you can....in this life, learn gurmukhi and then taste the sweet, soft, mournful melodies of Gurbani - blow your mind ! Reading it out aloud in its native marinated flavour, in raag form, resonance sounds that you could pitch high n low, self-adjust frequencies to harmonise inner rhythm, is what I call - a-ha moments. Having it spun-off any tava [translation through agency] loses "original" flavour, in my view.
> 
> ...




Hey Original Ji

hope you're well

thankfully when i was younger my mum sent me to punjabi school even though i hated going and didn't pay much attention...but i managed to learn how to read in Punjabi...i'm not the fastest reader...but i love reading japji in the morning...sometimes i will contemplate certain verses...anything i don;t understand i go by the english translation....and then an ardaas asking waheguru to make it clearer to me...

yes i agree...hearing the sounds of Gurbani as one reads it is quite something...and no translation does it justice...i didnt back then, but now i thank my mum a million times for making me go...


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## chazSingh (Jul 28, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> The question is, have understood what guru sahib is trying to say. While watching discovery channel, I noticed pea{censored} has got nothing to do with cloud, rain or mountain. Pea{censored} is not dancing happily because of the rain. It is false assumption. Pea{censored} think because of cloud or rain spread his wing to attract female pea{censored}. It means it is not sach preet but ahduri preet(false one sided) and is just taking advantage to attract morni -   infatuation - an act  female will be attracted. Pea{censored} has no love with cloud but with female pea{censored}. Similarly partridge has no link with moon. Partiridge think with the light of moon his chakori will come out.
> 
> Similarly the reason I raised question to chazji was that,  on one hand Guru sahib is stressing on 'khojat khojat ...searching and researching, karta purakh a creative and is it possible same Guru will discourage sikh to go for higher studies by saying whether you study or not, just utter waheguru. Can a doctor perform operation without understanding the technique. Similarly can we live truthful life by just uttering 'waheguru'. You go to any top brand raagi and see by yourself how egoistic is he. This pankti "Parhyiaa Unparhyia parm gatt pawei" [educated, uneducated; will be blessed] how conveniently has been used to distort the meaning of  gurbani. Let us see in which context it has be written by contemplating on the central ideaor the pivtol point, the rahao, ' bin navai jhutha dhan maal' the guru sahib is  referring to worldly wealth and assests' thus meaning of the pankti automatically becomes clear 'whether you make riches or not, it matters not so long as you 'LIVE TRUTHFUL life'.




JapjiSahib,

i understand what you are saying...and true translation and understanding the meaning of shabads is hugely important and helpful...

but there was a time when i didn't understand much at all...i was a lost soul...and opening SGGS Ji was exciting but overwhelming at the same time...so much to read, so many ideas, thoughts, words, directions etc etc...where to start...how to seek...??

but there were shabads that i could really understand straight away...shabads that for me at that stage in my life which rang a bell, which resonated with me...shabads of the Guru's ji's longing for waheguru, to seek His shelter, etc etc....i read them over and over and i thought this was my start...no one needs lessons in loving...no one needs lessons in longing...it is a feeling which radiates out from within...and it is this i could relate to..

there was too much going on in my life to be able to sit and contemplate my Guru...so i started waking up in the early hours...and i found my perfect time to pour my heart out...to calm my stressed and overworked mind...it was my sanctuary...

and my prayers were heard 

i have no issue with spending time on working out true meaning of shabads...it is because of the hard work of others that someone like me can come and just pick up the gems and decide what to do, where to begin.

when i came across shabads like Guru Nanak Dev ji saying "if you want to see the abode of waheguru, wake up in the ambrosial hours and take your cleansing bath" (rough translation)...i didnt care to research into what the ambrosial hours were...i took it as the morning hours and just 'did it'

when your heart is longing..reading a million opinions about a translation wasn't soothing my longing, it wasn;t quenching that thirst...i just did what i thought i understood at that time and 'Oh boy....did it work for me"

God Bless...and keep up the good work...i enjoy reading your posts...a helpful resource..


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## Original (Jul 28, 2015)

Dear Japjisahib Ji

Thank you !

Such a shame Guru Ravidas never got to watch discovery channel, for if he did, he may have made it a palatable dish on a table for 2 with lit candles. Perfect Valentine treat if you ask me, sits just right with the theme of the entire verse - true love.

Know the *word* to predate writing - the word was communicated from father to son before writing came to be.

I can't say I don't love you coz I do. You're the beautiful wise Heron who sits motionless on the edge of lake SPN, observing n sizing your next meal. As soon as, it appears on your radar, bosh comes the sting from that crouched position and dust n done till kingdom come is how it Ends. 


No my dear brother, we've humble beginnings, education, religion, arts n sciences were reserved for the rich n famous. We [Sikh] were the ordinary Jo Bloggs who believed pigs could fly and the my-buddi seated spinning the wheel on the moon and the rest were all true because we "believed" the stories and the story tellers, just like children do - beautiful human past. Our Banikars weren't aliens or super-humans who had enlarged brains to look into the "things in themselves", no, they were simple humanbeings who devoted much of their time in search of "truth". Our ancestors weren't fortuitously placed to embark on the runway cycle of biological and cultural development that led to modern and multitasking humans that we are today. No, we are evolving for better.

Here's a classic example to show how ignorant humans can be. For nearly 2000 years, educated people in Europe believed that bloodletting [deliberately causing a  sick person to lose blood] was the most effective treatment for a variety of illnesses. The "fact" [after watching discovery channel, ha] that bloodletting wasn't what it had been believed to be, didn't hit the headlines until 1800 - 1900's, and then some physicians argued against it and as a result it was stopped. The beauty in all this is Japjisahib, that knowledge grows from such differences of opinions. We move forward.

To read poetry and understand its meaning n significance one must reconstruct the past in which the Banikar lived, that is, social, cultural, environmental together with the Banikars personal status, qualifications, inclinations and so on. Then and only then will you be able to make sense n enjoy. For example, a car run on 4 wheels, if one of the wheel is punctured you won't get the fit for purpose signal flagged up and destination a far cry. Similarly, the Banikars must be subjected to their physical, spiritual, mental and emotional dimensions to realise what they were, why they were, who they were and then digest their experiences, thought processes in light of their human potential. The divine hand operating in the background is our "belief" but how that divinity is perceived and consequently conceived is what constitutes our "faith".

I love you n have a little chuckle every time you have a dig at the spiritualist camp.

Goodnight n Godbless


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## Ishna (Jul 28, 2015)

Original Ji, perhaps you could start a series here with information about reconstructing, as you said, "the past in which the Banikar lived, that is, social, cultural, environmental together with the Banikars personal status, qualifications, inclinations and so on."

When I started learning about Gurbani I became disillusioned/out of energy a few times because Gurbani itself is hard enough to comprehend, but when you're not from the Punjabi or even Indian culture, and you don't have the history and mythology in your psyche from growing up hearing about it, it seems like you need to learn all about those old cultures first before even getting to the Gurbani before even getting to the practice of Sikhi and developing connection to Naam.  Phew!

So if you could share you knowledge with the forum I think it would be very helpful.  

At the same time I think an outsider can sometimes spot the message in Gurbani more easily since they don't have the same degree of cultural baggage as some other people may have.

Gurfateh


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## chazSingh (Jul 29, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> The question is, have understood what guru sahib is trying to say. While watching discovery channel, I noticed pea{censored} has got nothing to do with cloud, rain or mountain. Pea{censored} is not dancing happily because of the rain. It is false assumption. Pea{censored} think because of cloud or rain spread his wing to attract female pea{censored}. It means it is not sach preet but ahduri preet(false one sided) and is just taking advantage to attract morni -   infatuation - an act  female will be attracted. Pea{censored} has no love with cloud but with female pea{censored}. Similarly partridge has no link with moon. Partiridge think with the light of moon his chakori will come out.
> 
> Similarly the reason I raised question to chazji was that,  on one hand Guru sahib is stressing on 'khojat khojat ...searching and researching, karta purakh a creative and is it possible same Guru will discourage sikh to go for higher studies by saying whether you study or not, just utter waheguru. Can a doctor perform operation without understanding the technique. Similarly can we live truthful life by just uttering 'waheguru'. You go to any top brand raagi and see by yourself how egoistic is he. This pankti "Parhyiaa Unparhyia parm gatt pawei" [educated, uneducated; will be blessed] how conveniently has been used to distort the meaning of  gurbani. Let us see in which context it has be written by contemplating on the central ideaor the pivtol point, the rahao, ' bin navai jhutha dhan maal' the guru sahib is  referring to worldly wealth and assests' thus meaning of the pankti automatically becomes clear 'whether you make riches or not, it matters not so long as you 'LIVE TRUTHFUL life'.




japji sahib ji,

whilst it is agreed that pea{censored}s spread their wings to mate....and i'm sure Guru Ji already knew this, i don;t think that is why guru ji has used the example...

so is guru ji trying to say?....'if god is the mountain then he is a horny pea{censored} waiting to mate with another pea{censored}?' 

obviously when a pea{censored} is seen spreading its wings in the rain, onlookers describe it as a joyous moment, where the pea{censored} opens its feathers and dances to the heavens that open up before him (rain)...as though the pea{censored} is bathing in the rain, soaking it all up, the love, the joy  ... the connection between the two..

so just like original ji has stated, it's an example that guru ji has used to portray deep love...*a theme, an imagery.*

*this is where literal translation or over thinking of the truth seeker loses the imagery that has been created by Guru Ji...
and as a result we are left with guru ji saying "if you are the mountain, then i'm the horny peaock ready to mate'  which i guess has no positive meaning or influence for a sikh*


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## Original (Jul 29, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> japji sahib ji,
> 
> whilst it is agreed that pea{censored}s spread their wings to mate....and i'm sure Guru Ji already knew this, i don;t think that is why guru ji has used the example...
> 
> ...



Easy meditator - you said it in 2 what I couldn't say in 3. Too good !

Love n Live where we come from !


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## Ishna (Jul 29, 2015)

If the soul bride is trying desperately to get her Husband to bed to ravish her, maybe Guru Ji *is* talking about a horny pea{censored}?  LOL!!!

But on a serious note, I agree with the poetic interpretation.


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## chazSingh (Jul 29, 2015)

Ishna said:


> If the soul bride is trying desperately to get her Husband to bed to ravish her, maybe Guru Ji *is* talking about a horny pea{censored}?  LOL!!!
> 
> But on a serious note, I agree with the poetic interpretation.




it could very well be ishna ji

*'when two become one'*...Love, longing and joy being the central theme


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## Original (Jul 29, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> it could very well be ishna ji
> 
> *'when two become one'*...Love, longing and joy being the central theme



Hey meditator - now you're talking ! decided to come into the world where we play [lila] the game of love - break a few, mend a few hearts then move on to true home [spiritual]. 

More later, lunchtime - maki di roti saroun da saag, home made yogurt - gate gourmet can't touch !

Be good !


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 29, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> whilst it is agreed that pea{censored}s spread their wings to mate....and i'm sure Guru Ji already knew this, i don;t think that is why guru ji has used the example...
> 
> so is guru ji trying to say?....'if god is the mountain then he is a horny pea{censored} waiting to mate with another pea{censored}?'
> 
> ...


 Off course Bhagatjee already knew. I think Originaljee misunderstood my take on this pankti.  Please check the sequences of shabds in this row and central idea of this pankti, 'ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS 658.17 Over here 'madhvai' is not God but is addressed to my manh. Oh my manh if you don't break me off from the attachment of superfluous activities then how will I connect with my innerselves.  The context or topic is attachment when it say 'tum seo tor kavan seo joroy'. Thus while keeping the pankti in mind, 'ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ - the topic is bondage to superfluous activities. To further understand the essence of the sabd, let us check the sabd prior to this and we find, ' ਜਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਂਧੇ ਮੋਹ ਫਾਸ ਹਮ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਬਧਨਿ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਧੇ ॥. Moreover, meaning of 'ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ' as quoted is mountain whereas at other places it is cloud. In the sabd all the symbols of cloud or pea{censored} for love used, are one sided  fake love.


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## chazSingh (Jul 29, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Off course Bhagatjee already knew. I think Originaljee misunderstood my take on this pankti.  Please check the sequences of shabds in this row and central idea of this pankti, 'ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS 658.17 Over here 'madhvai' is not God but is addressed to my manh. Oh my manh if you don't break me off from the attachment of superfluous activities then how will I connect with my innerselves.  The context or topic is attachment when it say 'tum seo tor kavan seo joroy'. Thus while keeping the pankti in mind, 'ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ - the topic is bondage to superfluous activities. To further understand the essence of the sabd, let us check the sabd prior to this and we find, ' ਜਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਂਧੇ ਮੋਹ ਫਾਸ ਹਮ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਬਧਨਿ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਧੇ ॥. Moreover, meaning of 'ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ' as quoted is mountain whereas at other places it is cloud. In the sabd all the symbols of cloud or pea{censored} for love used, are one sided  fake love.



i don;t understand ji...maybe i'm being silly here...

Guru ji says "if you are the mountain / cloud" .... "then i'm the pea{censored}"

in what way can that be describing a fake love?

guru ji being in love with the lord already....to what purpose would he be saying that he has a 'one sided fake love' with the lord

it doesn't make any sense ji...

says ravidaas 
if you are the lamp then i'm the wick...
if you are the moon then i'm the partridge in love with it...
_I am joined in true love with You, Lord.
I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others_

if i was imbued with that much love for the lord...then i would also be the dancing pea{censored} on the mountain when the heavens opened up and the rain poured down onto me! 

obviously that is only in the romantic imagery...the discovery channel would have already sussed me out and noticed i was really on the hunt for a sexy *looking peahen...curse those documentary producers!!*


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## Original (Jul 29, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> i don;t understand ji...maybe i'm being silly here...
> 
> Guru ji says "if you are the mountain / cloud" .... "then i'm the pea{censored}"
> 
> ...



Easy Grasshopper ! Japjisahib is what we're not - royal poetry !
Thanks be to god for he has you in a beautiful discussion - enjoy!


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## Original (Jul 29, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Original Ji, perhaps you could start a series here with information about reconstructing, as you said, "the past in which the Banikar lived, that is, social, cultural, environmental together with the Banikars personal status, qualifications, inclinations and so on."
> 
> When I started learning about Gurbani I became disillusioned/out of energy a few times because Gurbani itself is hard enough to comprehend, but when you're not from the Punjabi or even Indian culture, and you don't have the history and mythology in your psyche from growing up hearing about it, it seems like you need to learn all about those old cultures first before even getting to the Gurbani before even getting to the practice of Sikhi and developing connection to Naam.  Phew!
> 
> ...


The Ishna of today, how can she be known, say in 500 years ? One way is through photographs, memoirs, historical archives, etc etc, yes ! Other ways of knowing the 21st century girl from Australasia is through various disciplines of social sciences, notably, sociology. That is to say, the society in which she lived, the culture to which she belonged and the environment at the time. These are conditions which shaped Ishna the person, taken together with her genetic make can reproduce 21st century Ishna. What she wrote on SPN was the direct result of her biological constitution [genetic behaviour, hormonial shifts and molecular variations] culture [learned behaviour, ideas, habits, technigues]] and cognitive ability [psychological behaviour, mind set]. Similarly, if the Banikars bani is to be read and interpreted correctly, then the same must be studied.


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## Ishna (Jul 29, 2015)

In 2000 years, when 1500-1700s Punjabi culture has faded into the murky mists of time, will people still be required to do such study?

To me, the message in the Gurbani is timeless.  That is why it's so critically important now to pick out the philosophy from the culture-bound _religion_ so it is more portable throughout time.  This is my mission, and I know haters gonna hate that, but it is what it is.

The last thing I want to imagine is, in 2000 years, society looking at Sikhi like it does Christianity and Islam when they say today that those religions are for 2000 year old desert dwellers.

I totally agree that the first step is to understand the life and times of the contributors to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so we understand the messages they where trying to get across.

By the same token, the messages can largely stand on their own.  imho.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 30, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> harry ji,


Chazji..



chazSingh said:


> in your own words you have stated you don;t read or have read much of Gurbani anyway...


I have read enough to form an opinion.



chazSingh said:


> therefore please go ahead and read the Koran...



I have no wish to read the Koran, I have no interest in heaven, I do not wish to live in a palace,


chazSingh said:


> there is truth amongst many of the worlds religions...



there is some truth I guess, its the traditions, rituals, superstitions and general mumbo jumbo that puts me off.



chazSingh said:


> ...so i'm sure some positivity will come from reading the bible, koran, SGGS Ji and anything else that inspires you to think about what this shizzle we called creation is all about in the big scheme of things




I do not think about what this shizzle is, I have a fairly good idea that it is about energy and consonance, and I certainly do not think I would find anything of interest to me personally in the bible. The Abrahamic god is a jealous, angry god, it goes at odds with my own view that god goes way beyond the understanding of human emotion.



chazSingh said:


> i think it is important to try to understand Gurbani and get the correct translations or as close to them as possible...especially to set the sail in the correct direction...



as close as possible is not good enough, imagine if the word sugar was swapped for salt in a recipe, its a small mistake, but it changes everything.


chazSingh said:


> the Wind however we cannot control...it will control many aspects of our journey...and that wind is Waheguru and it'll start taking us in the right direction anyway...it is ok not to know everything or not being a scholar in Gurbani....the love and intention of the seeker is the most important...




you see, I do not see it this way, we are the wind, we blow this way and that depending on what thief is in control, on our health, our financial situation, we go in whatever direction we wish, in my opinion, Creator is the anchor. You say intention, I say agenda, may I ask what your ultimate agenda is with regards religion?



chazSingh said:


> Just my humble opinion based on my own experiences thus far...i am indebted to the souls that have worked tirelessly to translate...even if they are not 100% correct, they pointed me in the right direction...and i can never thank them enough.



speak for yourself, I am not indebted to them, they have created generations of Abrahamic Vedic Sikhs


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## Harry Haller (Jul 30, 2015)

Original said:


> Hey Chaz
> 
> If you can....in this life, learn gurmukhi and then taste the sweet, soft, mournful melodies of Gurbani - blow your mind ! Reading it out aloud in its native marinated flavour, in raag form, resonance sounds that you could pitch high n low, self-adjust frequencies to harmonise inner rhythm, is what I call - a-ha moments. Having it spun-off any tava [translation through agency] loses "original" flavour, in my view.
> 
> ...



Originalji,

I can see now where we differ, for you Sikhism is a reason to have a love affair with the world, with the whole of living, you rise high embracing creation whilst cosmic orchestras play the tunes of living on Saturn's rings, the universe is your playground and you play, and you play well, its warm, its cosy, its beautiful!

Whereas for me, it just helps stop the screaming


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## chazSingh (Jul 30, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Chazji..
> 
> 
> I have read enough to form an opinion.
> ...




keep doing what you're doing then harry ji.

if you're happy with it, then no one can tell you to change your thinking and direction.

i'm happy with my direction so i have no reason to change also...

God bless ji


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## Harry Haller (Jul 30, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> keep doing what you're doing then harry ji.
> 
> if you're happy with it, then no one can tell you to change your thinking and direction.
> 
> ...


I do not believe anyone has ever asked you to


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## chazSingh (Jul 30, 2015)

forgot to answer on of you question


"I say agenda, may I ask what your ultimate agenda is with regards religion?"

not sure how to describe this...cus its a strange feeling...

... to find out, to know, to seek what is causing this deep longing within me to know what this whole show is about...this feeling is making me question what it is i am doing in my life...i need to know where this is coming from...what it is....why is it that i am starting to question if what i see, hear, touch and breath and smell, is not the full story....? i need to know....and i don't want to wait until i die expecting to find out then....no no no...needs to be 'now'

not sure if that is an agenda...but that's the only way i can describe it...

God bless


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## Original (Jul 30, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Originalji,
> 
> I can see now where we differ, for you Sikhism is a reason to have a love affair with the world, with the whole of living, you rise high embracing creation whilst cosmic orchestras play the tunes of living on Saturn's rings, the universe is your playground and you play, and you play well, its warm, its cosy, its beautiful!



H - box-up the PC trade n move over to creative writing ! Too good ! How damn poetic, capturing me the way you did is awesome ! Mind you, I've had the rough n tumble of life, but all in all - life otherwise is beautiful.


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## Original (Jul 30, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I totally agree that the first step is to understand the life and times of the contributors to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so we understand the messages they where trying to get across.


Well said, sign of a good student [Sikh]. OK Ishna, with regard to the understanding and the interpretation of Gurbani, one must know something of the authors, social, environmental, cultural and biological background to ascertain their character, disposition and personality.

For example, let us assume that you, Ishna G [IG] is a judge presiding over a certain court of law and after a night of considerable incidents within a small town, you have to deal with several cases of serious domestic assaults. Most of these cases look straightforward, but two of them turned out to present particular difficulty. One involves a husband who tried to strangle his wife; the other a wife who went for her husband with a kitchen knife. Both assaults were deliberate, and neither was in self- defence. The court’s resident *psychologist* has uncovered interesting evidence, which seem to provide the basis of strong pleas in mitigation (less blameworthy). 

In the first case it turns out that the man was conscripted (compulsory) during a recent war and put through intensive training designed to *condition* him to attack on the slightest provocation. Before that time his character had been quite different, and violence had been completely alien to him. In the second case it turned out that the woman was at the time suffering [*condition*] from unusually severing pre-menstrual tension and that at other times of the month she is known to everyone as a model of calm and restraint. 

IG would accept the argument [because you yourself was a living example of hormonal imbalances ?] from the defendants counsel that such things as *conditioning* and *hormones* can influence character and behaviour?

Suppose now then, you having accepted that these two defendants were not responsible for their actions and therefore should not be punished and have now before you the counsel for the remaining eight. How might they argue for leniency on behalf of their clients? 

Well, one of the Solicitors might say to you “IG, if an action can be explained by environmental influences, such as military training, then the soldier is not blameworthy for his behaviour and likewise the woman did not choose her hormonal constitution and therefore is not at fault. It then flows from this argument that in the case of my client, Miss X who is charged with a violence offence, is a woman brought up in a violent family [*social*] where she was never taught to control her temper and, had she been brought up in a different family, she would have acted quite differently and would not have committed this crime. She obviously has to be let off for the same reason as the soldier and the woman. And in fact similar arguments apply to the rest of the cases of all the defendants. All my clients are the products of their *physical* make up (hormones and the likes) and their *environment*, and those factors all entirely beyond their control provide the explanation of all their actions”.

It seems then, that you face a difficult problem. On the one hand it does seem quite unfair to hold people responsible for actions that were caused by influences entirely beyond their control. And on the other hand, once we start to allow this kind of excuse to kick in there seems no reasonable point at which to stop.

The moral of it is, the *conditions* [social, environmental! cultural and biological] operating at the time of the Banikars lives plays a significant role in the way they behaved, thought and acted - and produced Gurbani. With this information, both the reader and the  interpreter are best placed to draw the right conclusions, inferences and correct interpretations.


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## chazSingh (Jul 31, 2015)

Original said:


> Well said, sign of a good student [Sikh]. OK Ishna, with regard to the understanding and the interpretation of Gurbani, one must know something of the authors, social, environmental, cultural and biological background to ascertain their character, disposition and personality.
> 
> For example, let us assume that you, Ishna G [IG] is a judge presiding over a certain court of law and after a night of considerable incidents within a small town, you have to deal with several cases of serious domestic assaults. Most of these cases look straightforward, but two of them turned out to present particular difficulty. One involves a husband who tried to strangle his wife; the other a wife who went for her husband with a kitchen knife. Both assaults were deliberate, and neither was in self- defence. The court’s resident *psychologist* has uncovered interesting evidence, which seem to provide the basis of strong pleas in mitigation (less blameworthy).
> 
> ...



Original Ji,

on the basis of your analysis then...

what is the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditioning that Waheguru would be under?

if as per the Guru Ji's own words...they wrote what came to them then are we to assume that what trickled down from sachkhand was then affected by the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditions that the Guru Ji's were under.

and therefore the complete message is its original form was not written?

i can't go by this explanation or reasoning...

for solutions to the world to be successful, the solution has to come from beyond the influences of Maya...from beyond any conditioning, to help us to rise above and make lasting and effective changes to the world around us...

yes, what Guru Ji Wrote as per Waheguru's will would have been geared towards the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditions of that time and for the future (as waheguru is beyond time) ... but the message surely could not have been affected by those conditions or the conditioning.

We also have to assume that as Ego was minimal in the Guru Ji's (enough to allow their human experience as individuals to occur), that they're un-consious, sub-consious and super-conscious domain would not have been affected by what was around them...

to thin otherwise, would mean...the Guru Ji's message would be different if they were born today. What does that say about the message? does the process with which a soul returns back home change over time? does the Word\Shabad that resonated within us change over time? what part should i dismiss as being conditioned by their time and what part of gurbani is timeless and unaffected by worldy conditions? As i truth seeker who is here in the present moment...i would really need to know this 

in my opinion, when it comes to Gurbani, we must forget time and place...
we must forget physicality of Guru Ji...the Word is the Word..
*everything that occurred on the physical plane (the guru ji's, the wars, the difficulties, the challenges, the storyline....all occurred to allow the path/tunnel for the timeless and unaffected Shabad to manifest in written form for us seekers*

just my thoughts, this is such an interesting topic


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## Original (Jul 31, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> on the basis of your analysis then...
> 
> ...


My dearest Chaz G

The rationale behind writing the environmental and genetic *conditioning* together with *social engineering *was to show how the human [we] when fully developed as a being is but a product of the above 3. Insofar, Waheguru a spiritual entity, it doesn't I'm afraid gets caught up within the 3 but remains independent of it, that is, God consciousness [chautha pad].

I was from an academic view point asserting the importance of researching the human past to interpret Gurbani in it's nativeness, that is to say, understanding the culture, the society, and the personal circumstances of the composers of Gurbani. However, the aesthetic and the mystical experiences expressed can only be realised through the grace of God, more commonly referred to as, "state of grace".

Spiritual science of the soul starts where the intellectual one stops. 

Hope I've been able to clarify ! More another time - till then - wkwf.

PS - Intersteller n gravity


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## chazSingh (Jul 31, 2015)

Original said:


> My dearest Chaz G
> 
> The rationale behind writing the environmental and genetic *conditioning* together with *social engineering *was to show how the human [we] when fully developed as a being is but a product of the above 3. Insofar, Waheguru a spiritual entity, it doesn't I'm afraid gets caught up within the 3 but remains independent of it, that is, God consciousness [chautha pad].
> 
> ...



thanks for the reply ji...always well received and very elegantly written unlike my posts 

whats on the lunch menu today? saag and makee de roti? gourmet excellence...i really need to learn how to make saag...

god bless ji.


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## Ishna (Jul 31, 2015)

Chaz Ji, thanks for asking a question I was pondering, as well.

I think it is enough to understand the audience the Guru was communicating with, really.  To understand their metaphors in the context of the times.  But the message itself needs to be focused upon rather than 500 year old Punjabi society.  imho.


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## chazSingh (Jul 31, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Chaz Ji, thanks for asking a question I was pondering, as well.
> 
> I think it is enough to understand the audience the Guru was communicating with, really.  To understand their metaphors in the context of the times.  But the message itself needs to be focused upon rather than 500 year old Punjabi society.  imho.



my current opinion on this...it might change..but i hope it doesn't 

the audience is* us*....only the *present* moment exists...Gurbani exists in this present moment..for us...not for anyone else...it's timeless...it has to be no other way...it can't be no other way

forget about anyone that ever existed...*we are the audience*...it is not something written by a human being, it is the timeless Word which was channeled through a physical body and written.

something constant had to be placed in a changing world...an anchor...SGGS ji is that anchor.

i don;t think i ever want to read it and add further complexities like possible social interferences...the Guru Ji's might have done this in their daily actions with regards to what they faaced and challenged etc etc...but the written word had to be something that in its *entirety *is potent no mater what time it is looked upon.

Just my feelings...

i think it would be interesting to know which shabads you think were intended solely for the past generations...and what metaphors you think were used solely for that time frame...that would make an interesting discussion


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2015)

I am with Chazji on this, the message is and always was timeless in my opinion. I think once you start taking into account local factors, the opportunity for further distortion can only increase.


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## Original (Aug 1, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> thanks for the reply ji...always well received and very elegantly written unlike my posts
> 
> whats on the lunch menu today? saag and makee de roti? gourmet excellence...i really need to learn how to make saag...
> 
> god bless ji.


Thank you Chaz Ji

There is an exception to the rule here, that is, it's  not always the prose, but the subject-matter which takes precedence. Some of your simple expressions from a range of complex ideas are beautifully worded, particularly the spiritual. Extracting from the intricate the essential elements is an art and you've got it. How ? Because of your consonance with the ultimate reality, namely, God. We at SPN are, I suppose, connected in some respect to the "word" of God and that in itself is evident of His grace upon us. How we present that to the rest of the community is in itself a true contribution albeit sugarcoated subjectively.

But yes, the elegance in writing touches the parts which ordinary writing don't. Consider the following: one beautifully sunny day, I'm on my way into central Lobdon via the underground for a business meeting. On the way out of the subway , I see a "homeless soul", towards which, I find myself involuntarily walking. Seated on the floor with a bowler hat placed before him for donations, sleeved hand written note on an A4 hung suspended around his neck, "BLIND PLEASE HELP". As I bent down to put some of my loose change into the hat, he touched my feet. Having placed the change into the hat, I removed the A4 paper from the plastic sleeve and wrote on the reverse what I felt the message should reflect. Neatly, I placed the paper back into the sleeve and headed to work. At the close of business several hours later, I headed home. To my surprise, the blind beggar was still there with his bowler hat dripping with loose change. I sighed a sign of relief n gratitude and felt momentarily "wow". I went and stood before him, he touched my feet, feeling them as it were, and said "what did you write?". 

"*It's a beautiful day, I can't see" *I replied and headed towards the platform.

The moral is, "how" you say it. Gur Ghar chose *Gurbani* to say it the way they felt it would best illustrate meaning n subject - poetically. 

More another time - I'm in Midlands tomorrow !


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2015)

I think it's important to understand the life and times of the contributors to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, because the poetry delivers its message by often referencing examples from the environment, culture and beliefs at the time.  Sometimes it's entirely possible to get the message from the example without having much knowledge about the background.  Indeed, sometimes it is even delivered better this way.

Grasping the message, which is timeless, is the important part, not dwelling too much on the packaging in which it was delivered.


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## chazSingh (Aug 1, 2015)

I see your point...but in this context an example would be useful. God bless


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> I see your point...but in this context an example would be useful. God bless



Who should provide the example, me or Original Ji?


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2015)

An example about inaccurate translation and how they can affect the Gurbani is in paurhi 38 of Japji Sahib.  Compare the second to last line.

Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa's translation
Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥
Bẖāŉdā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,

ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥
Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
*Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.*
*This is the daily routine of those on whom God casts His gracious glance.*

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||​
So which is it; a passive effect of karma, or our active actions here and now?  I feel that Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation is more likely to be accurate, but if you have only read the former, far more common translation, you may think it is up "karma".


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 2, 2015)

Ishna said:


> ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥ Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
> *Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.*
> *This is the daily routine of those on whom God casts His gracious glance.*


 First little question, is God biased that He chose His favorites and case His Glance of Grace upon them. Is this gurmat? Gurmat as per my understanding is,  'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥ whosoever place his faith in gurbani and blends with truth, he becomes  ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ - exclusive, as such each and everyone is qualified and could be exclusive.


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## Ishna (Aug 2, 2015)

Japjisahib ji, regardless of the deeper understanding, how can the line be translated to more appropriately reflect the meaning?

Regards the whole concept of Nadar, it is being discussed over in this thread, which you've already given your thoughts in: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/grace-of-the-god.24311/


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 2, 2015)

Ishna said:


> ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥


 Since the pankti is addressed to the manh who has urge to be sachiar thus over 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence(ਕਰਮੁ) of divine intellect (ਨਦਰਿ) and live accordingly completes his  ਕਾਰ' mission.


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## chazSingh (Aug 3, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> First little question, is God biased that He chose His favorites and case His Glance of Grace upon them. Is this gurmat? Gurmat as per my understanding is,  'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥ whosoever place his faith in gurbani and blends with truth, he becomes  ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ - exclusive, as such each and everyone is qualified and could be exclusive.



of course he doesn't have his favourites..

as you sow shall you reap...and as you said yourself...if we align according to gurmat values and actions...then we are on the right track

we are all under his hukam....he grants our wishes....if we want to be led astray under the 5 thieves, then that is what will happen...if we want to seek His shelter then that is also what will happen..

wherever one places His/Her Dyaan...that will manifest eventually

all by his power...

Aakhan jor, Chupai neh jor,

Jor na mangan dayn na jor

Jor na jeevan maran neh jor

Jor na raaj maal man sor

Jor na surtee giaan vechaar

Jor na jugatee chutai sansaar

Jis hath jor kar vekhai so-i

Nanak utam neech na ko-i


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## chazSingh (Aug 3, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Who should provide the example, me or Original Ji?



Hi ishan, sorry, yes was meant for you.

an example showing a shabad where the meaning would be geared towards the audience back then only..


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## Original (Aug 3, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> the audience is* us*....only the *present* moment exists...Gurbani exists in this present moment..for us...not for anyone else...it's timeless...it has to be no other way...it can't be no other way


Beautifully put ! Flowing from your statement above, we can convienently conclude that gurbani is "timeless" and is therfore an "objective" truth [sat].


chazSingh said:


> something constant had to be placed in a changing world...an anchor...SGGS ji is that anchor.


Too Good ! Bang-on ! Again, an "objective good"!


chazSingh said:


> Just my feelings...


This is you being subjective. Your decisions are based on principles n values, primary organ "operative" is your *heart* and not the mind [thinking as opposed to feeling], where God lives. Your perceptions n conceptions are based on feelings and extenuating circumstances.


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## Original (Aug 3, 2015)

Lady n Sirs
*Re pauri 38*

*Jin kauon*, literally meaning, whosoever
*nadar*=graceful observation or bestowment, in the instant case it is the former [God the observer, both within n without]
*karm*=both in deed and in thought [karm to be read as a doctrine of a system of belief  and not as an agent defining particular and general a verb of language]
*tin car*=those who by virtue of karm [by deed n thought] have reached a state of being

Essence of pauri 38 in its simplist form is more of a declaration than an affirmation, that is to say, humankind is intrinsically rational, full of virutes [jat] and like the goldsmith, if humankind was to work on "self" [like goldsmith works on gold] human condition could be purified, like gold is, when heated all impurites bubble-out, similarly, when virtuous traits become habits the innerself becomes pure to receive nectar. This, Nanak says happens at a stage when the adept has attained a state of being through karm, meaning, performed such acts in deed n thought of moral n spiritual excellence which in the eyes of the Omnipotent God is deserving of gur prasad [state of grace].

The understanding and interpretation of gurbani is particularly difficult where the text is composed in sutras. Sutras are highly compact phrases of meaning-packed flashes of language which avoid vast use of words for elucidation. Verses in the sutra style do not have any specifically expressed vebs, cases or prepositions, leaving a good deal to the imagination of the reader. What *Ravi*, the river couldn't say [phiosophic prose], *Kavi* the singer could [poet], hence, gurbani composed in raag.

Another translation issue is cultural and linguistic disparities between gurmukhi n english which precludes word for word translation, thereby resticting the capacity of mutual rendition.

Words at best have different meanings for each listener due to their own perspective and understanding. As we ourselves grow in understanding, so too does the depth and grandeur of gurbani becomes more n more apparent. The real journey of spiritual understanding lies not in reading but in our personal transformation through action n inaction [deed n thought].

*Opinion*

State of grace [gur prasad] is a discussion to be had, where gur ghar Sikhi is a proof in the the pudding for the "believer".


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## Sherdil (Aug 4, 2015)

Original said:


> *karm*=both in deed and in thought [karm to be read as a doctrine of a system of belief and not as an agent defining particular and general a verb of language]


Literally karm means action. It is employed in the theory of Samsara to denote the means by which the atma finds release.

In this case however, karm refers to the aforementioned actions listed in the previous lines. That is why the green translation provided by Ishna ji for comparison, describes it as a “daily routine”.



Original said:


> *tin car*=those who by virtue of karm [by deed n thought] have reached a state of being



Kar and karm share the same Sanskrit root word kri (to do, to make). Tin is the causative agent, in this case Nadar (not karma). It is Nadar that causes one to perform the aforementioned karm (action).

Sorry japjisahib ji. I think the Arab etymology for the word Nadar (look, glance) is a better fit. In this discussion of karm and tin kar, it is important to keep in mind who is karta (the doer). Karta Purakh.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 5, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> I think the Arab etymology for the word Nadar (look, glance) is a better fit. In this discussion of karm and tin kar, it is important to keep in mind who is karta (the doer). Karta Purakh.


God is all full of wisdom and inevitable laws of nature. To attain His wisdom and understand laws of nature is 'daat' or nadar.   Contrary to general belief and understanding that if God glance His grace then only one is blessed whereas Gurbani tells us, 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ those who clean and fill their vessels with nectar of love(divine intellect) only they are blessed with eternal peace and their pains are forgotten, thus granting SOS type grace to selected goes against laws of nature as gurbani says, 'ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ One thing we need to understand when I attain His intellect i.e. kirpa that no kirpa if vessels is upside down and manh is empty with divine intellect.

Now coming back to subject pankti and 'nadar' & 'tin kar', let us see who is karta purakh, what is nadar in this panki.  In first pauree of Japjisahib Manh enquires very passionately how to be sachiar and after travelling all the way through 38 pauree, has now reached in a state of sachiar.Thus in a state of sachiar, in this pankti 'ਜਿਨ' is without sihari and as such it is in plural form and over here 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence of gurmat(ਕਰਮੁ with aunkar is His virtues)  and (ਨਦਰਿ is His way of thinking - His paradigm) and live accordingly completes his ਕਾਰ' mission.Thus karta in this pankti is manh and not God.


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## Sherdil (Aug 5, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> God is all full of wisdom and inevitable laws of nature. To attain His wisdom and understand laws of nature is 'daat' or nadar.   Contrary to general belief and understanding that if God glance His grace then only one is blessed whereas Gurbani tells us, 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ those who clean and fill their vessels with nectar of love(divine intellect) only they are blessed with eternal peace and their pains are forgotten, thus granting SOS type grace to selected goes against laws of nature as gurbani says, 'ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ One thing we need to understand when I attain His intellect i.e. kirpa that no kirpa if vessels is upside down and manh is empty with divine intellect.
> 
> Now coming back to subject pankti and 'nadar' & 'tin kar', let us see who is karta purakh, what is nadar in this panki.  In first pauree of Japjisahib Manh enquires very passionately how to be sachiar and after travelling all the way through 38 pauree, has now reached in a state of sachiar.Thus in a state of sachiar, in this pankti 'ਜਿਨ' is without sihari and as such it is in plural form and over here 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence of gurmat(ਕਰਮੁ with aunkar is His virtues)  and (ਨਦਰਿ is His way of thinking - His paradigm) and live accordingly completes his ਕਾਰ' mission.Thus karta in this pankti is manh and not God.



The concept of Nadar is related to another Arabic word, Hukam. In Arabic, Hukam literally means order / command (not natural law).

With His Nadar (glance of grace), he inspires us to walk the path
With His Hukam (command), He causes us to walk the path

Karta is an adjective used in the present tense that describes someone who is in the act of doing. In the present moment the Divine is creating this play, just as a dancer creates a dance.

Purakh comes from the word Purusha. It denotes an all seeing, all knowing, all doing cosmic entity. In Gurbani, this is best illustrated with the analogy of a single actor playing the roles of all the different characters. The question of partiality doesn’t even arise, since all the characters are Him.


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## Original (Aug 6, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> God is all full of wisdom and inevitable laws of nature. To attain His wisdom and understand laws of nature is 'daat' or nadar.   Contrary to general belief and understanding that if God glance His grace then only one is blessed whereas Gurbani tells us, 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ those who clean and fill their vessels with nectar of love(divine intellect) only they are blessed with eternal peace and their pains are forgotten, thus granting SOS type grace to selected goes against laws of nature as gurbani says, 'ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ One thing we need to understand when I attain His intellect i.e. kirpa that no kirpa if vessels is upside down and manh is empty with divine intellect.
> 
> Now coming back to subject pankti and 'nadar' & 'tin kar', let us see who is karta purakh, what is nadar in this panki.  In first pauree of Japjisahib Manh enquires very passionately how to be sachiar and after travelling all the way through 38 pauree, has now reached in a state of sachiar.Thus in a state of sachiar, in this pankti 'ਜਿਨ' is without sihari and as such it is in plural form and over here 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence of gurmat(ਕਰਮੁ with aunkar is His virtues)  and (ਨਦਰਿ is His way of thinking - His paradigm) and live accordingly completes his ਕਾਰ' mission.Thus karta in this pankti is manh and not God.


Respected Japjisahib Ji

For a moment step back from the pages of SGGSJ and have a look at what Gur Nanak came to convey, and "who to" ?

Given that sizeable population was illiterate around Nanak's time, it would seem sensible and logical if Nanak had spoken in simple rather than complex language. Society at that time was Hindu-Islamic [c1500], the word nadar [arabic] in its literal interpretation is glance, which would've been frequently used in everyday conversation amongst both the contemporaries and the ordinary citizen.

According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadar meaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance ?

Sikh philosophy was constructed deliberately with effect, "keep it short n simple " [kiss]. Two dominant ideas in their simplistic form says it all, manmukh n gurmukh. Jap Ji Sahib read in its entirety starts with manmukh qualities moving slowly towards the spiritual, gurmukh qualities and capping pauri 38, as "hey human......all in good time by the grace [nadar] of God".

Sherdil's recent interpretation is beautifully worded because both intent n purpose satisfied.

Good day !


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 6, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> The concept of Nadar is related to another Arabic word, Hukam. In Arabic, Hukam literally means order / command (not natural law).
> 
> With His Nadar (glance of grace), he inspires us to walk the path
> With His Hukam (command), He causes us to walk the path


Appreciate your interest; No doubt He is inspiring us to walk the divine path but gurbani tells us, ' ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ but manh dai paradigm to pasand hi nahi then all this treasure of wisdom is useless.


Original said:


> Given that sizeable population was illiterate around Nanak's time, it would seem sensible and logical if Nanak had spoken in simple rather than complex language. Society at that time was Hindu-Islamic [c1500], the word nadar [arabic] in its literal interpretation is glance, which would've been frequently used in everyday conversation amongst both the contemporaries and the ordinary citizen.
> 
> According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadar meaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance ?
> 
> Sikh philosophy was constructed deliberately with effect, "keep it short n simple " [kiss]. Two dominant ideas in their simplistic form says it all, manmukh n gurmukh. Jap Ji Sahib read in its entirety starts with manmukh qualities moving slowly towards the spiritual, gurmukh qualities and capping pauri 38, as "hey human......all in good time by the grace [nadar] of God".


Original Jee,

I am wondering, when in simple word Nadhree is God then naturally all divine traits are Nadhar as God gifts are His divine intellect which is also called satguru. Since His grace is already available to anyone whosoever wishes to seek then why guru sahib single out and  says, 'ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥  if I take your meaning it means certain people are excluded from His grace. SGGS.2. Therefore logically meaning of this pankti will be whosoever does not live as per the paradigm of Nadhree (antar atma), he cannot explore the treasure within as such, his chaz achar will be of lowly and of guilty. 

Now coming to your remarks 'According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadarmeaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance', I ask you a simple question. In 3rd stanza guru sahib says, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥  what is He giving that we got weary of receiving and since this pankti is followed by juga jughantar kahaey so let us what we are eating from centuries? Therefore, let us check whether Pauri 3 is really referring to material items as when we look at pauree 1 which says, 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey - we are never tired of receiving but keep on demanding and further says, 'trishna virlai ki hi bhujhi re'. It means something is wrong in our understanding and interpretation. It needs research. I think ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ His divine intellect is, 'Jhimm jhimm varsai amritdhara is continuously raining' and whosoever seeks and attain it, he becomes stable and  "jugo jugantar khai khain" means is, once a mat is filled with "denda's dena, i.e. nadar, tat gyan, kirpa, the seeker becomes forever stable.' This bhojan of divine is remedy  if I eat then ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥ (1429-13. The rest is upto you.


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## Original (Aug 6, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> I am wondering, when in simple word Nadhree is God then naturally all divine traits are Nadhar as God gifts are His divine intellect which is also called satguru. Since His grace is already available to anyone whosoever wishes to seek then why guru sahib single out and says, 'ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ if I take your meaning it means certain people are excluded from His grace. SGGS.2. Therefore logically meaning of this pankti will be whosoever does not live as per the paradigm of Nadhree (antar atma), he cannot explore the treasure within as such, his chaz achar will be of lowly and of guilty.


I think what is missing from much of your "beautiful" thought process is the idea of "God", what it is, who it is, where it can be found, how it can be found, communicated, etc. And, once you've identified God you'll be best placed to dilute HIM/HER [God] with anything and anyone. In the instant case above, Nanak is very comfortable imagining God to be both sargun [individual] and nirgun [collective] and portrays nadar as emanating from the whole [nirgun] on to the part [sargun]. There isn't pick n choose or any bias on God's part, but left very much down to the individual to perform karm both in deed n thought [meaning action] and accordingly is entitled to consideration [glance].


japjisahib04 said:


> Now coming to your remarks 'According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadarmeaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance',


You didn't answer, never mind, but please ask yourself the question why would Nanak want to rock the boat amongst his children !


japjisahib04 said:


> In 3rd stanza guru sahib says, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ what is He giving that we got weary of receiving and since this pankti is followed by juga jughantar kahaey so let us what we are eating from centuries? Therefore, let us check whether Pauri 3 is really referring to material items as when we look at pauree 1 which says, 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey - we are never tired of receiving but keep on demanding and further says, 'trishna virlai ki hi bhujhi re'. It means something is wrong in our understanding and interpretation. It needs research. I think ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ His divine intellect is, 'Jhimm jhimm varsai amritdhara is continuously raining' and whosoever seeks and attain it, he becomes stable and "jugo jugantar khai khain" means is, once a mat is filled with "denda's dena, i.e. nadar, tat gyan, kirpa, the seeker becomes forever stable.' This bhojan of divine is remedy if I eat then ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥ (1429-13. The rest is upto you.



'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ is that the Giver [God] always keeps giving, but those receiving [jo public] do not last forever. Planet Earth has consumed Waheguru's gifts for yonks, but the Lord has no shortage - bring'em on He declares. In 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey' - the context in which it is applied is to show that the greed of the greedy cannot be extinguished or fulfilled.

More another time - sorry, lunch time !

Take care !

PS I'm touched by your proposal to research more - finding middle ground is always the way forward.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 6, 2015)

Original said:


> I think what is missing from much of your "beautiful" thought process is the idea of "God", what it is, who it is, where it can be found, how it can be found, communicated, etc. And, once you've identified God you'll be best placed to dilute HIM/HER [God] with anything and anyone. In the instant case above, Nanak is very comfortable imagining God to be both sargun [individual] and nirgun [collective] and portrays nadar as emanating from the whole [nirgun] on to the part [sargun]. There isn't pick n choose or any bias on God's part, but left very much down to the individual to perform karm both in deed n thought [meaning action] and accordingly is entitled to consideration [glance].


You mean to say nadar as emanating from the whole(nirgun) on to the part(sargun), in that case how will you translate 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥


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## Original (Aug 6, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> You mean to say nadar as emanating from the whole(nirgun) on to the part(sargun), in that case how will you translate 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥


*Correct !*

As regards 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥ Let us read the full shabd to construe accurately. What you've presented is pauri, which is the extended bit to what on the whole is a continuation of the demerits of both hindu n muslim practices.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥ ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥ ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥ ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥ ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਚਉਕਾ ਕਢੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ਵੇ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਅਸਾਡਾ ਫਿਟੈ ॥ ਤਨਿ ਫਿਟੈ ਫੇੜ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥ ਮਨਿ ਜੂਠੈ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰੇਨਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥ ਸੁਚਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 471-472}
The above shabd is self-explanatory, guru ji, here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how *"justice will be done"* by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to *"beware",* and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus *'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ *nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !

Japjisahib Ji I quite enjoyed this retreat! Mind you, I've only sailed through, touching but the surface I

Take care


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 6, 2015)

Original said:


> It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to *"beware",* and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus *'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ *nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !


The difference is clearly surfacing. By your interpretation you are presenting gurmat God as vengeful, jealous where as Guru Nanak God is 'bhakhiya bhao aapar - filled with infinite love, mitha bolda, mera gun avgun n chitrai etc.

Now you compare it with my understanding and then decide.  The pankti is, 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ॥
By closely looking at the pankti and *the context mentioned by you,* I have observed that pankti is not referring to God but to my manh as a first person that whosoever (upathi) ignores the paradigm of God (or does not change his vision as per divine) then sultana (is my demon manh without godly virtues) drags me into superfluous rituals (gha kraida -useless karma). And, 'ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ॥੧੬॥ When mind is involved in superfluous rituals throughout(pilgrimages, ginti minti, auscipious days), he has no time left *to request satguru and seek His intellect*, thus mind is not able to align with truth to stablize.Thus it depend upon me and my manh and not God either to go for godly virtues or remain manmukh.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 6, 2015)

Original said:


> ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ is that the Giver [God] always keeps giving, but those receiving [jo public] do not last forever. Planet Earth has consumed Waheguru's gifts for yonks, but the Lord has no shortage - bring'em on He declares. In 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey' - the context in which it is applied is to show that the greed of the greedy cannot be extinguished or fulfilled.


Here again, error is being committed, is His gift only eatable items that we are eating from centuries. what about other numerous gift like house, gold job, son etc. etc.  , Guru sahib says it is wrong even to think that appetite for hunger of status, greatness, commendation, money, and beauty could ever be quenched even by piling up loads of worldly riches of countless worlds or reaching to the level of Bill Gates, as hunger of mind is wealth and beauty which is limitless and is insatiable, and thus the desire of the hunger to experience God remains a dream. 

As per my understanding, when it comes to 'daat'- critical analysis indicates, it relates to 'matt vich rattan jawahar manak jai ik gur ki sikh suni - i.e. gems of divine wisdom and not worldly gifts which cannot make our mind stablized (thir ghar baiso har jan piyare satguru tumreh kaaj swareh - over here satguru is divine and not worldly items). Even otherwise mission of gurbani is how to be sachiar and not to collect worldly good.


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## Original (Aug 6, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> The difference is clearly surfacing. By your interpretation you are presenting gurmat God as vengeful, jealous where as Guru Nanak God is 'bhakhiya bhao aapar - filled with infinite love, mitha bolda, mera gun avgun n chitrai etc.
> 
> Now you compare it with my understanding and then decide.  The pankti is, 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ॥
> By closely looking at the pankti and *the context mentioned by you,* I have observed that pankti is not referring to God but to my manh as a first person that whosoever (upathi) ignores the paradigm of God (or does not change his vision as per divine) then sultana (is my demon manh without godly virtues) drags me into superfluous rituals (gha kraida -useless karma). And, 'ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ॥੧੬॥ When mind is involved in superfluous rituals throughout(pilgrimages, ginti minti, auscipious days), he has no time left *to request satguru and seek His intellect*, thus mind is not able to align with truth to stablize.Thus it depend upon me and my manh and not God either to go for godly virtues or remain manmukh.


Japjisahib Ji

I'm sorry, you've lost me, where have I said vengeful God ? And pls, relax with this manh imposter, for a kilogram of nerve cells [brain] is all a human really is !

Goodnight Sir


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## Sherdil (Aug 6, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ but manh dai paradigm to pasand hi nahi then all this treasure of wisdom is useless.



This line appears on page 2 GGS.

The pauree begins by describing various gunas (qualities, attributes, virtues): Long life, fame, followers and good reputation.

Sans Nadar (glance of grace), these qualities would be negated. Notice the contrast:

*ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ*
Without receiving His Nadar (glance of grace)

*ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ*
No one would even ask about you

*॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥*
(you would be) below a worm and even sinners would hold you in contempt

The pauree continues...

*ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ*
He turns nirgun (without qualities, virtue) into gun (with quality, virtues). He is the gunvantia (giver of virtues).

*ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ*
No one can give qualities / virtues unto Him, because no one is above Him.

Negation of Hankaar (pride) is the takeaway. Even worldly success is unattainable without His Nadar (glance of grace).

The full pauree:

ਜੇ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਆਰਜਾ ਹੋਰ ਦਸੂਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
जे जुग चारे आरजा होर दसूणी होइ ॥
Je jug cẖāre ārjā hor ḏasūṇī ho▫e.
Though a man's age be equal to four ages and grow even ten times more,

ਨਵਾ ਖੰਡਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
नवा खंडा विचि जाणीऐ नालि चलै सभु कोइ ॥
Navā kẖanda vicẖ jāṇī▫ai nāl cẖalai sabẖ ko▫e.
Even though he be known in the nine continents and all were to walk with him (or follow in his train),

ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥
चंगा नाउ रखाइ कै जसु कीरति जगि लेइ ॥
Cẖanga nā▫o rakẖā▫e kai jas kīraṯ jag le▫e.
and he were to assume good name and obtain praise and renown in the world.

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥
जे तिसु नदरि न आवई त वात न पुछै के ॥
Je ṯis naḏar na āvī ṯa vāṯ na pucẖẖai ke.
If God's gracious glance falls not one him, them, no one would care for him,

ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
कीटा अंदरि कीटु करि दोसी दोसु धरे ॥
Kītā anḏar kīt kar ḏosī ḏos ḏẖare.
he is accounted a vermin amongst worms and even the sinners impute accusations to him.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥
नानक निरगुणि गुणु करे गुणवंतिआ गुणु दे ॥
Nānak nirguṇ guṇ kare guṇvanṯi▫ā guṇ ḏe.
O Nanak! God grants virtue to the non-virtuous and bestows piety on the pious.

ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥੭॥
तेहा कोइ न सुझई जि तिसु गुणु कोइ करे ॥७॥
Ŧehā ko▫e na sujẖ▫ī jė ṯis guṇ ko▫e kare. ||7||
I can think of no such one who can show any goodness unto Him.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 7, 2015)

Original said:


> 'm sorry, you've lost me, where have I said vengeful God ? And pls, relax with this manh imposter, for a kilogram of nerve cells [brain] is all a human really is


 here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how *"justice will be done"* by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to *"beware",* and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus *'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ *nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !

Guru sahib have addressed God as Mother and Father (qu maat pita ham barek tairai), do the parents curse their children or call them wicked and *punish or deprive them of any facilities *irrespective of any wrong doing. If your interpretation is not presenting God as vengeful then I have nothing to add.


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## Original (Aug 7, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how *"justice will be done"* by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to *"beware",* and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus *'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ *nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !
> 
> Guru sahib have addressed God as Mother and Father (qu maat pita ham barek tairai), do the parents curse their children or call them wicked and *punish or deprive them of any facilities *irrespective of any wrong doing. If your interpretation is not presenting God as vengeful then I have nothing to add.



Japjisahib Ji
You've saved me doing a long exercise, thank you, the word "wicked" you construed is precisely within the genre, which it belongs. If you now look at the intent within which I framed, you should or I intended you to read it as such was "immoral". You see how you gave wicked its literal meaning - now read nadar within that framework.
Thank you !


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 7, 2015)

Original said:


> You've saved me doing a long exercise, thank you, the word "wicked" you construed is precisely within the genre, which it belongs. If you now look at the intent within which I framed, you should or I intended you to read it as such was "immoral". You see how you gave wicked its literal meaning - now read nadar within that framework


Original Jee

You are most welcome! Now I know why you place excessive reliance on repeating a word and believe Guru Tegh Bahadur sat in a bhora for several years doing bhagati waiting for God's mercy and grace when Guru Nanak himself is complaining to his manh to have mercy on him, 'ਏਤੀ ਮਾਰ ਪਈ ਕਰਲਾਣੇ ਤੈਂ ਕੀ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ by your action my body is totally shattered and eroded, have mercy on me and come to the sanctuary of guru's wisdom.SGGS.360

Guru sahib in 2nd pauree of japjisahib clearly tells us that there are two hukmi and, 'ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥ intellect of first hukmi keeps you in a state of ecstacy while other (intellect of manh) sends you wandering aimlessly forever. 

May God bless you


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 7, 2015)

S. Sherdil Jee

Welcome! Interpretation listed by you is literal and I would request you to kindly give your own interpretation as there neither are nine continents on this earth nor guru sahib would say that there is now such person who can show any goodness unto Him ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥੭॥ when actual meaning is there is no other way but inner journey and bheebekh budhi which can bestows virtues upon me


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## chazSingh (Aug 7, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how *"justice will be done"* by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to *"beware",* and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus *'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ *nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !
> 
> Guru sahib have addressed God as Mother and Father (qu maat pita ham barek tairai), do the parents curse their children or call them wicked and *punish or deprive them of any facilities *irrespective of any wrong doing. If your interpretation is not presenting God as vengeful then I have nothing to add.



Japji  ji

I cannot see how original is implying a vengeful god. If you put your dyaan on waheguru..then surely He takes notice and you get his full support

If your dyaan is elsewhere and you have no interest in waheguru or doing sat karams then what is waheguru to do other than to patiently wait until you do...For waheguru loves us all. Your desires are fulfilled either way...and we live with the rule as you sow shall you reap no matter which direction you take...

Surely a teacher can only help and support students whos dyaan is on succeeding on a course. On students that want to be helped...who are open to the teachers guidance. 

If a student wants to be elsewhere or is not interested then the teacher eventually has no choice but to respect the student and let them go in their own direction

But the teacher always remains open to support that student if they want to return

This is not vengeful...This is love...things are not as black and white as you are taking it.


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## Original (Aug 7, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Japji  ji
> 
> I cannot see how original is implying a vengeful god. If you put your dyaan on waheguru..then surely He takes notice and you get his full support
> 
> ...





japjisahib04 said:


> Original Jee
> 
> You are most welcome! Now I know why you place excessive reliance on repeating a word and believe Guru Tegh Bahadur sat in a bhora for several years doing bhagati waiting for God's mercy and grace when Guru Nanak himself is complaining to his manh to have mercy on him, 'ਏਤੀ ਮਾਰ ਪਈ ਕਰਲਾਣੇ ਤੈਂ ਕੀ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ by your action my body is totally shattered and eroded, have mercy on me and come to the sanctuary of guru's wisdom.SGGS.360
> 
> ...


....and, you Sir !


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## Ishna (Aug 8, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Hi ishan, sorry, yes was meant for you.
> 
> an example showing a shabad where the meaning would be geared towards the audience back then only..



Chaz Ji

I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims.  The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship.  It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.

And I didn't say it was geared towards the audience back then *only*.  The more one learns about Hindu religions, the more insight one can get from the examples Guru Sahib was giving.

Here is just one small example from Sohila, on panna 13:

*ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥*
_Rāg āsā mėhlā 1._
Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:

*ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥*
_Cẖẖi▫a gẖar cẖẖi▫a gur cẖẖi▫a upḏes._
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

*ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥*
_Gur gur eko ves anek. ||1||_
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||

*ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥*
_Bābā jai gẖar karṯe kīraṯ ho▫e._
O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung -

*ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
_So gẖar rākẖ vadā▫ī ṯo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o._
follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ||1||Pause||​
Obviously this is in reference to, quoting Wikipedia: "The mainstream Hindu philosophy includes six systems (_saddarsana_) – Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mīmāṃsā and Vedānta."

However, for other audiences, and particularly today's, you read that and acknowledge that there are dozens of philosophies from all around the world, and if worlds exist on other planets, then there are even more, not just six per Guru Nanak Sahib's above example.


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## Ishna (Aug 8, 2015)

Persian was the more common language at the time, not Arabic.

However, Arabic was used for science, theology and religion.  It was the more official language.

What language was Guru Nanak Sahib using?  Perhaps that will help guide us to the correct translation of 'nadar'.


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## Ishna (Aug 8, 2015)

I appreciate your comments, Original Ji.  I can't say I agree with all of it, but it was good to read.

An open mind is essential, as you said.  As humans, Guru Sahib teaches students how to use our lives in the best way we can, and shows us how to connect with Akaal Purakh and be good people.  There is no other way for us.  But to presume that nothing in the universe can have this connection is anthropocentric.  As humans, we might think the universe revolves around us, but does it?  Or are we just our own kind of voice amongst countless others trying to sing the song of the universe?


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## Original (Aug 8, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Chaz Ji
> 
> I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims.  The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship.  It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.
> 
> ...


*New*
↑
Chaz Ji

I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims. The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship. It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.

Absolutely ! Baba Nanak Ji gave a meaning to life and a direction to the attainment of the ultimate goal - Ikonkar [God]. This message was not new, scriptures n cultures of our ancestral past are littered with evidence, but because of the selfish interests of the ruling classes the real message had been lost over time. Young Nanak revived it in a manner that was both refreshing and emphatic, notably, that human life is not like animals, where birth, death, rebirth [referred to as reincarnation] is a never ending cycle. That indeed is not the purpose of human life, said Nanak. For out of the primordial soup of biological n chemical interaction in accordance with physical laws [life] it is given only to human species to find a way out of the recurring process of birth death as per the theory of reincarnation [doctrine of belief at the time]. There are 84 lakh joon [again, a doctrine at the time] forms going round n round in this vicious cycle, "hey you human" called out Nanak, "human form is the only exit out of the 84" [supported here by Guru Arjun on page 378 SGGSJ - bhai prapat manukh]. This one outlet is the human form to escape from the prison house of this world for humankind alone is endowed with the possibility of finding release from it*. Humankind in this respect is qualitatively superior to all other living species [page 1075 SGGSJ].

**Edit*] Although, Nanak advocated the celebration of life in its fullest, hence, his ideology of the three pillars of Sikhism, kirit kar, vand shuk, nam jap, *he was nevertheless*, conscientious of his audience, namely, Hindu, Muslims, Buddhist, Jainism whose outlook on life centred very much on suffering, afterlife paradise, morality, etc and it was to this end that the theory of reincarnation provided the perfect escape route to construe the true meaning n purpose of life, which is Sikhi [for believers].

Ishna Ji best way to learn is with an open mind, that is, what was yesterday will not be tomorrow, change is immanent, but because of our true identity as species accurate history is a must.


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## Original (Aug 8, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I appreciate your comments, Original Ji. I can't say I agree with all of it, but it was good to read.


thank you - they're not comments per se but rather interpretations of the historical literature found in and around the times of the Gurus and the Banikars [Indian society]. Please feel free to raise questions with what you find incompatible.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 9, 2015)

Original said:


> they're not comments per se but rather interpretations of the historical literature found in and around the times of the Gurus and the Banikars [Indian society]. Please feel free to raise questions with what you find incompatible.


 Original Jee
I didn't know that you are a lawyer, I am only a small tyre dealer. Though there is no comparison between you and me but I would like to ask you quoting history and banikars by our gurus, is not it our duty to see the essence behind and how it applies on me as a first person as it is meant for me to be sachiar, after all it is a brahmgian. What I can see with naked eyes that concept of God in gurbani is chardhikla, creative energy, virtues, then how could same God cast angry glance and reduce kings into blades of grass or send me into cycle of reincarnation because I am not focussing on one word and meditating and when it matters not 'vadha n hovai ghat n jaey' whether I pray or not. Why God didn't cast angry glance on those butchers who burnt alive innocent sikh in 1984 praying in gurdwara and were busy parroting waheguru. Why instead of reducing these butchersto blades of grass, they were promoted to cabinets minsters and other high post.    Why none of them are punished even after 31 years. The word veparwah for God has appeared in SGGS 64 times that mean he does not interfere as gurbani clearly tells us, 'jo kitch paeya so eka vaar- the divine intellect is given once for all whether we follow or not, is our choice' and jo brahmandai soei pindai.
,


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## Seeker2013 (Aug 9, 2015)

There is no bad translation ! there is no good translation

In words of Guru Gobind Singh ji, "Aap aapni buddh hai jeti, barnat bhinn bhinn tuhe teti" (O God, people describe you as much as  their own intellect allows them)


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## Harry Haller (Aug 9, 2015)

Seeker2013 said:


> There is no bad translation ! there is no good translation



Unless you are interested in material you are translating, then I guess you are correct. Parroting is parroting regardless of what you are saying.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 9, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> I am only a small tyre dealer



what do you do if someone wants a big tyre?


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## Harry Haller (Aug 9, 2015)

Original said:


> Absolutely ! Baba Nanak Ji gave a meaning to life and a direction to the attainment of the ultimate goal - Ikonkar [God].



I find it hard to recognise as the ultimate goal, simply the word Ikonkar, largely because it does not mean much, you could quite as easily say the ultimate goal is smurf. In plain English, and in my own view, the ultimate goal is to live in consonance with your surroundings, devoid of deity worship, supernatural events, ritual, ceremony, ego and pride.



Original said:


> This message was not new



On the other hand I think that it was new, completely new, not a mish mash of Hinduism and Islam, but something completely new, a religion that freed you from the shackles of giving a damn about the deity, that freed you from being scared of the deity, or obsessed with pleasing the deity, the message was quite simple, ask not what god can do for you, ask what you can do for god.



Original said:


> scriptures n cultures of our ancestral past are littered with evidence, but because of the selfish interests of the ruling classes the real message had been lost over time




It is not only the ruling classes that have selfish interests, and it is not only due to the ruling classes that the message has been lost over time,



Original said:


> Young Nanak revived it in a manner that was both refreshing and emphatic, notably, that human life is not like animals, where birth, death, rebirth [referred to as reincarnation] is a never ending cycle. That indeed is not the purpose of human life, said Nanak. For out of the primordial soup of biological n chemical interaction in accordance with physical laws [life] it is given only to human species to find a way out of the recurring process of birth death as per the theory of reincarnation [doctrine of belief at the time]




seems quite like the Hindu way of life, if he was going to laud this, why bother with something new, why not just start a new sect within Hinduism?



Original said:


> This one outlet is the human form to escape from the prison house of this world for humankind alone is endowed with the possibility of finding release from it*. Humankind in this respect is qualitatively superior to all other living species [page 1075 SGGSJ].



You make life sound like a punishment, Sikhism to me lauds life, it is precious, an opportunity to be part of the universe.


Original said:


> **Edit*] Although, Nanak advocated the celebration of life in its fullest, hence, his ideology of the three pillars of Sikhism, kirit kar, vand shuk, nam jap, *he was nevertheless*, conscientious of his audience, namely, Hindu, Muslims, Buddhist, Jainism whose outlook on life centred very much on suffering, afterlife paradise, morality, etc and it was to this end that the theory of reincarnation provided the perfect escape route to construe the true meaning n purpose of life, which is Sikhi [for believers].



this theory of reincarnation has been around for centuries before,


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## chazSingh (Aug 10, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Original Jee
> I didn't know that you are a lawyer, I am only a small tyre dealer. Though there is no comparison between you and me but I would like to ask you quoting history and banikars by our gurus, is not it our duty to see the essence behind and how it applies on me as a first person as it is meant for me to be sachiar, after all it is a brahmgian. What I can see with naked eyes that concept of God in gurbani is chardhikla, creative energy, virtues, then how could same God cast angry glance and reduce kings into blades of grass or send me into cycle of reincarnation because I am not focussing on one word and meditating and when it matters not 'vadha n hovai ghat n jaey' whether I pray or not. Why God didn't cast angry glance on those butchers who burnt alive innocent sikh in 1984 praying in gurdwara and were busy parroting waheguru. Why instead of reducing these butchersto blades of grass, they were promoted to cabinets minsters and other high post.    Why none of them are punished even after 31 years. The word veparwah for God has appeared in SGGS 64 times that mean he does not interfere as gurbani clearly tells us, 'jo kitch paeya so eka vaar- the divine intellect is given once for all whether we follow or not, is our choice' and jo brahmandai soei pindai.
> ,



Let's stop parroting about the parroting...

The rule of the whole show is...as you sow shall you reap... Nothing can be outside of this rule. 

Therefore if you have any faith in waheguru and his divine laws then understand that justice will always be served.

I will now return to my drug induced parroting...what shall I take today...The blue pill or the red pill?...hmmmm


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## chazSingh (Aug 10, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Unless you are interested in material you are translating, then I guess you are correct. Parroting is parroting regardless of what you are saying.



Whilst I agree that there are people who mindlessly parrot away..

There are others who are mindfully  focused on their creator...so much so that the universe that you so wish to be in consonance with opens up before their very eyes... (inner vision)

But then I guess the all knowing harry ji and Japji can see with their mighty surface vision and caste judgement 

God bless ya dudes!


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## chazSingh (Aug 10, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Chaz Ji
> 
> I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims.  The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship.  It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.
> 
> ...



Good example.

In it lies the timeless message...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Therefore if you have any faith in waheguru and his divine laws then understand that justice will always be served.



how do you square that with say Jimmy Saville?

is the whole 1984 issue outside of this justice diktat?

or are you going to tell me that I just don't understand?


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## Harry Haller (Aug 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> But then I guess the all knowing harry ji and Japji can see with their mighty surface vision and caste judgement



I don't think either of us can see much, speaking for myself, I am merely using my god given brain to understand and ask questions.

oh, please don't feel you have to keep putting in smileys or the 'god bless' in your replies to me, its just that I can see the gritted teeth


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## chazSingh (Aug 10, 2015)

harry haller said:


> how do you square that with say Jimmy Saville?
> 
> is the whole 1984 issue outside of this justice diktat?
> 
> or are you going to tell me that I just don't understand?




my point is none of us will ever understand until we can see the 'full' picture...god consciousness

i believe we 'can' know the full picture..the full picture is revealed if we seek it...

that is why we cannot get our heads around certain parts of Gurbani...that says there is no right, and there is no wrong  or who i bad and who is good...

it's because we don;t know he full picture...we cannot see from on top of the mountain, we only see whats before us on the street...

take away all the Drama...all the characters...all the costumes....and what is left is God, and nothing but God...a sea of unlimited possibilities...
will we ever really truely comprehend that? if everything is God\waheguru\ikongkar...who is right...and who is wrong ....

if everything is God\waheguru\ikongkar then who is good and who is bad 

i want to see the full picture...now...not when i die....i want to experience it all, god willing...whilst i am alive..
i believe Gurbani guides us to this realization...and from what has been revealed so far, i will not doubt any of it ever again..


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> There are others who are mindfully focused on their creator...so much so that the universe that you so wish to be in consonance with opens up before their very eyes... (inner vision)


Chaz Jee

If you can hear the inner voice or see the inner vision. Good luck to you. I was referring to gurbani only. Guru sahib clearly says the divine food the treasure is *'*nanak likhiya naal - it is recorded within you and it is discovered by, ' ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅਲਭੁ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਲਭੈ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਮਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ thus outrightly dismisses meditation.


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## chazSingh (Aug 10, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I don't think either of us can see much, speaking for myself, I am merely using my god given brain to understand and ask questions.
> 
> oh, please don't feel you have to keep putting in smileys or the 'god bless' in your replies to me, its just that I can see the gritted teeth



no gritted teeth my friend...

*but then only i would know that right? *everything else on your part is just guess work based on a TEXT message  (i am really smiling here)

just as only i would know if i am parroting, or if i am having a drug like nonsense of an experience through my simran..or if its something that is beyond all comprehension...as real as the world you see around you...and only you and others will label it as mere mindless parroting...based on very little knowledge on what i did and what happened...

but that is the way of the world...and there is no right or wrong here...

...because even gurbani says when you take this path the world will think you're nuts...hence..if you want to play this game of love...come to me (waheguru) with your head and take no notice of public opinion...this journey is very personal and myself nor anyone else can not prove any of it to each other.

so if you think i'm parroting, its cool...  
i'm loving unraveling gurbani...i hope you are also whilst being in consonance with your surrounding.

god bless...(i mean that).


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## chazSingh (Aug 10, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Chaz Jee
> 
> If you can hear the inner voice or see the inner vision. Good luck to you. I was referring to gurbani only. Guru sahib clearly says the divine food the treasure is *'*nanak likhiya naal - it is recorded within you and it is discovered by, ' ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅਲਭੁ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਲਭੈ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਮਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ thus outrightly dismisses meditation.




it is Gurbani that is taking me to where i am going  starting that summers day when i realized i have been going to the gurdwara mindlessly bowing my head to Guru Ji all my life, and i finally opened Guru Ji up and took a dive within...

A lot of that journey which continues today also, is to change my way of thinking into divine traits like you mention...
have you ever wondered why some people are just naturally nice...they don't try to be nice...they just are nice..
whereas others make effort to be nice...but lurking within them is the 5 thieves..

what is the difference? a difference i notice is that their Ego is less than others...and as Gurbani says, once Ego is dissolved, God manifests...waheguru's divine traits naturally come through...

so this is what i do...through thought and deed, changing the way i do things in life...as Harry Ji would say...try to live in consonance with my surroundings...

but to also spend a little time where i can use my God given Dyaan to focus IK Man, on my creator which Gurbani says is within me...to surrender to His power, His will and hope His Shabad guides me...so that His Divine traits come through as the Fog of my Ego dissolves

God Bless Ji


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## Original (Aug 10, 2015)

harry haller said:


> what do you do if someone wants a big tyre?


H - too good ! seated behind my desk I burst out in laughter - much obliged ! Now this is what I call "guru g di bani" - laugh n joke love n live !


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## Ishna (Aug 11, 2015)

The posts that where talking about God is All vs God is in All to a new thread: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threa...-all-the-cake-or-the-sugar-in-the-cake.46010/

Hope that's ok with everyone.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 11, 2015)

Great thread, great insights and observations shared by all.

Ishna ji has stated about religions of the day being a catalyst in Guru ji's writings and style thereof. The religions of the day were mostly Hinduism and Islam. If you see the writers (Guru ji and others), they were teachers who felt a need to share a wisdom that varied from the prevalent. In order to best connect and carry on this endeavor, they used the beliefs held by people or preached to the people as a subject of study. A logical reasoning then followed and the underlying wisdom either became self evident or was explicitly shared. If we understand such dichotomy of the person, the belief and the wisdom as it should be, then all of SGGS becomes quite wonderfully sticky to understand, enjoy and cherish.

How to approach SGGS ji then. If you have none of the beliefs or such background (mostly of Hinduism and its off shoots or Islam) then you can go straight to wisdom which by itself is timeless. The fun part is that where in SGGS reference is made to subjects related to Hinduism or Islam, you don't need to go back 500 or 600 years.If you are observant and want to experience you can do so today with some effort and focus through internet, etc., as not much has changed in this area.

A much more difficult part of SGGS is when the metaphor's of the environs of the time are used in a given shabad/stanza, pankti/line, etc. It will be all but impossible to experience poetic joy had you not either experienced or otherwise can relate to visuals of the writer's mind. Whether it is pea{censored}s looking for mates (there is no falsehood or cheating it is all good and per consonance  ) or somehow within ourselves get nadar/vision/trigger/catalyst that helps us rise so that we may understand the consonance and creation that surrounds us.

So for me that is how it is. I am not scholarly a study of Hindusim or Islam but can grossly relate and then see why SGGS talks about something and the wisdom that follows. It helps but many times if I want to learn and dig deeper I read Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Darpan which provides incredible background in such instances.

Let us put it into practice. If I may assume, Ishna ji is probably not colored by or deeply follows Hinduism or Islamic beliefs. So where ever in SGGS there is reference to these she can go straight to the wisdom rather than how wisdom is derived to justify why it be so. On the other hand, if a person is raised in a protected Western society much away from arts and crafts, when there is reference to cobbler's wheel and the rich soil they seek to shape earthenware. One may not relate to the essence or even miss out on the whole message.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (Aug 13, 2015)

Ambarsaria said:


> Great thread, great insights and observations shared by all.
> 
> Ishna ji has stated about religions of the day being a catalyst in Guru ji's writings and style thereof. The religions of the day were mostly Hinduism and Islam. If you see the writers (Guru ji and others), they were teachers who felt a need to share a wisdom that varied from the prevalent. In order to best connect and carry on this endeavor, they used the beliefs held by people or preached to the people as a subject of study. A logical reasoning then followed and the underlying wisdom either became self evident or was explicitly shared. If we understand such dichotomy of the person, the belief and the wisdom as it should be, then all of SGGS becomes quite wonderfully sticky to understand, enjoy and cherish.
> 
> ...



Ambarsaria ji,

it would be very useful to have an example or two to understand exactly what you are saying here..

if you get time, that would be great.

thanks ji


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 13, 2015)

Chazsingh ji here it goes. I have taken a short cut in that I have not created line by line my understanding. By quoting I am not necessarily agreeing with any one translation but I believe it helps illustrate the concept.


ਗੁਰੁ *ਈਸਰੁ *ਗੁਰੁ *ਗੋਰਖੁ* *ਬਰਮਾ* ਗੁਰੁ *ਪਾਰਬਤੀ* ਮਾਈ ॥ *(Hinduism Gods/figures, etc.)*

गुरुईसरुगुरुगोरखुबरमागुरुपारबतीमाई॥

Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.

The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਗੁਰੂਸ਼ਿਵਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂਹੀਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰਤੇਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਂ, ਗੁਰੂਹੀਸ਼ਿਵਦੀਪਤਨੀ-ਪਾਰਬਤੀ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰਦੀਪਤਨੀਲਖਸ਼ਮੀਅਤੇਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦੀਪਤਨੀ-ਸੁਰਸਵਤੀਹੈ।

ਈਸਰੁ = ਸ਼ਿਵ।ਬਰਮਾ = ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ।ਪਾਰਬਤੀਮਾਈ = ਮਾਈਪਾਰਬਤੀ।ਗੁਰੂਹੀ (ਸਾਡੇਲਈ) ਸ਼ਿਵਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂਹੀ (ਸਾਡੇਲਈ) ਗੋਰਖਤੇਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਹੈਅਤੇਗੁਰੂਹੀ (ਸਾਡੇਲਈ) ਮਾਈਪਾਰਬਤੀਹੈ।




> ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
> 
> जेहउजाणाआखानाहीकहणाकथनुनजाई॥
> 
> ...



*WISDOM:*

_ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥


सभनाजीआकाइकुदातासोमैविसरिनजाई॥५॥   


Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||5||   


there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||   


ਸਮੂਹਜੀਵਾਂਦਾਕੇਵਲਇਕਦਾਤਾਰਹੈ।ਉਹਮੈਨੂੰਕਦੇਭੀਨਾਂਭੁਲੇ।   


ਇਕੁਦਾਤਾ = ਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਇਕਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ।ਵਿਸਰਿਨਾਜਾਈ = ਭੁੱਲਨਾਜਾਏ। (ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਇਕ' ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ-ਲਿੰਗਹੈਤੇਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਬੁਝਾਈ' ਦਾਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣਹੈ।ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਇਕੁ' ਪੁਲਿੰਗਹੈਤੇਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਦਾਤਾ' ਦਾਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣਹੈ।ਦੋਹਾਂਲਫ਼ਜ਼ਾਂਦੇਜੋੜਾਂਦਾਫ਼ਰਕਚੇਤੇਰੱਖਣਾ)।ਕਿਜਿਹੜਾਸਭਨਾਂਜੀਵਾਂਨੂੰਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਇਕਰੱਬਹੈ, ਮੈਂਉਸਨੂੰਭੁਲਾਨਾਦਿਆਂ॥੫॥_

---------------------------------------------------
*Another example:*

*ਤੀਰਥਿ **ਨਾਵਾ* ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥ *(Hinduism rituals.)*

तीरथिनावाजेतिसुभावाविणुभाणेकिनाइकरी॥

Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e karī.

If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?

ਜੇਕਰਮੈਂਉਸਨੂੰਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਜਾਵਾਂਤਾਂਇਹੀਮੇਰਾਧਰਮਅਸਥਾਨਤੇਨ੍ਹਾਉਣਾਹੈ।ਉਸਨੂੰਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਣਦੇਬਿਨਾਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਦਾਕੀਲਾਭਹੈ?

ਤੀਰਥਿ = ਤੀਰਥਉੱਤੇ।ਨਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਾਂ।ਤਿਸੁ = ਉਸਰੱਬਨੂੰ।ਭਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਾਂ।ਵਿਣੁਭਾਣੇ = ਰੱਬਨੂੰਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਣਤੋਂਬਿਨਾ, ਜੇਰੱਬਦੀਨਜ਼ਰਵਿਚਕਬੂਲਨਾਹੋਇਆ।ਕਿਨਾਇਕਰੀ = ਨ੍ਹਾਇਕੇਮੈਂਕੀਹਕਰਾਂ?ਮੈਂਤੀਰਥਉੱਤੇਜਾਕੇਤਦਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਾਂਜੇਇਉਂਕਰਨਨਾਲਉਸਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਨੂੰਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਕਰਸਕਾਂ, ਪਰਜੇਇਸਤਰ੍ਹਾਂਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਨਹੀਂਹੁੰਦਾ, ਤਾਂਮੈਂ (ਤੀਰਥਉੱਤੇ) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਕੇਕੀਹਖੱਟਾਂਗਾ?




> ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥
> 
> जेतीसिरठिउपाईवेखाविणुकरमाकिमिलैलई॥
> 
> ...




*WISDOM*


ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥

सभनाजीआकाइकुदातासोमैविसरिनजाई॥६॥

Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||6||

there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||6||

ਸਮੂਹਜੀਵਾਂਦਾਕੇਵਲਇਕਦਾਤਾਰਹੈ।ਉਹਮੈਨੂੰਕਦੇਭੀਨਾਂਭੁੱਲੇ।

xxxਜਿਸਕਰਕੇਮੈਨੂੰਉਹਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਨਾਵਿਸਰਜਾਏ, ਜੋਸਾਰੇਜੀਵਾਂਨੂੰਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਹੈ॥੬॥


*Metaphoric Deductions: Message what is a worthwhile dependency!*

·  *Lions are non-vegetarian; so crave meat*

·  *Fighters like challenges of a fight; look for a fight*

·  *Misers love money; so hoard*

·  *The true seeker of knowledge; depends on knowledge of creator*


*ਸਿੰਘ* ਰੁਚੈ ਸਦ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਮਾਸ ॥

सिंघरुचैसदभोजनुमास॥

Singẖ rucẖai saḏ bẖojan mās.

The tiger always wants to eat meat.

ਸ਼ੇਰਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂਹੀਗੋਸ਼ਤਦਾਖਾਣਾਚਾਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ।

ਸਿੰਘ = ਸ਼ੇਰ।ਰੁਚੈ = ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ।ਸਦ = ਸਦਾ।ਮਾਸਦਾਭੋਜਨਮਿਲੇਤਾਂਸ਼ੇਰਸਦਾਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ,


*ਰਣੁ* ਦੇਖਿ ਸੂਰੇ ਚਿਤ ਉਲਾਸ ॥

रणुदेखिसूरेचितउलास॥

Raṇ ḏekẖ sūre cẖiṯ ulās.

Gazing upon the battlefield, the *warrior's* mind is exalted.

ਲੜਾਈਹੁੰਦੀਵੇਖਸੂਰਮੇਦਮਨਵਿੱਚਉਮੰਗਪੈਦਾਹੁੰਦੀਹੈ।

ਰਣੁ = ਜੁੱਧ।ਸੂਰ = ਸੂਰਮਾ।ਉਲਾਸ = ਹੁਲਾਰਾ, ਜੋਸ਼।ਜੁੱਧਵੇਖਕੇਸੂਰਮੇਦੇਚਿੱਤਨੂੰਜੋਸ਼ਆਉਂਦਾਹੈ,


*ਕਿਰਪਨ* ਕਉ ਅਤਿ ਧਨ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥

किरपनकउअतिधनपिआरु॥

Kirpan ka▫o aṯ ḏẖan pi▫ār.

The *miser* is totally in love with his wealth.

ਕੰਜੂਸਆਪਣੀਦੌਲਤਨੂੰਨਿਹਾਇਤਹੀਮੁਹੱਬਤਕਰਦਾਹੈ।

ਕਿਰਪਨ = ਕੰਜੂਸ, ਸ਼ੂਮ।ਸ਼ੂਮਨੂੰਧਨਦਾਬਹੁਤਲੋਭਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ।


*ਹਰਿ **ਜਨ* ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ *(Hopefully all knowledge seekers like you and others )*

हरिजनकउहरिहरिआधारु॥३॥

Har jan ka▫o har har āḏẖār. ||3||

The humble servant of the Lord leans on the Support of the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||

ਰੱਬਦੇਗੋਲੇਨੂੰਕੇਵਲਸਾਈਂਮਾਲਕਦਾਹੀਆਸਰਾਹੈ।   ਤਮਾਦੇਨਾਮਦਾਆਸਰਾਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ॥੩॥


*WISDOM:* The true one, craves for the knowledge of creator.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Original (Aug 13, 2015)

Dear All

Ambarsaria Ji's article is a pleasure to read - beautifully delivered ! I sincerely wish we can all adopt that very style, bar subjective arguments, which of course, can be fought on a neighbouring field - titled "my sikhi".

Couple of notable observations on my part; first, what are the essential tools for reading and understanding gurbani ? From a *scholarly* perspective, Sikh history is a must, studied in line with social n environmental conditions prevalent at the time of writing together with basic poetry reading skills, that is, what is the shabd about, what is the writer's mood, attitude, social, personal circumstances, what is going on, who is talking, to whom, under what circumstances, where, about what, why, etc. From a *religious* perspective, a holistic approach coupled with reverence n respect, which ought to hammer home meaning and intent in one sitting. Both however, must borne in mind not to water-down the facts so as to dilute the conveyance and rob its authenticity, classic case of which was evidenced by Japjisahib Ji above [more n chikor - verse 658].

The two kinds of compositions used in SGGSJ, were the literary type and second, the types which were recited in the folklore forms. It is the latter of the two which Guru Ravidas used when constructing the above shabd. The operative word or shall we say, "romantic" line used by Ravidas Ji was, "*sachi preet" *meaning *true love* and building it around the metaphors of mountain-pea{censored} and moon-chikor was to bring out the best punjabi folklore of the natives of Punjab. Alien interpretations not familiar with folklore are bound to miss the tune to the music of punjab no matter how intellectually aided. Now, this brings me to my second observation, notably, the nature of gurbani.

Although, the tools for construction used by authors of SGGSJ are the same as that of poetry, everything else is at variance. That is to say, the craft of gurbani is like that of poetry, but the subject matter and the tendency of its creators is pretty much their own. Where poetry is composed by the poet, bani is written by a banikar, the spiritual man. Poetry revolves largely around the visible world and human relationships, limiting its scope within time n space, Gurbani however, transcends time n space allowing the Banikars to express their divine experiences, which not only do they analyse but also present philosophically on the level of reality as could best be understood by the ordinary mind of the believer in God.

For both Ishna Ji n Chaz Ji, an example will best illustrate the art, craft, mood, subject matter, metaphor used by the writer in the following shabads:

*ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਕੁੰਭੇ ਬਧਾ ਜਲੁ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਬਧਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 469*} Here guru Nanak metaphorically uses an analogy to hammer home the importance of having a "guru". Simile used, *ਕੁੰਭੇ* [vessel to store liquids, which is made on potters wheel] is a typically used utensil within Indian households. Now, those of us who are familiar will immediately grasp Nanak's message from those who are not. And, the point of enjoyment is grounded in Nanak's skill to its best endeavours by connecting the ordinary [householder] to the extra-ordinary [guru] by the use of words.

*ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ .... ਮਿਠਤੁ ਨੀਵੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਤਤੁ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 470} *Now, here guru Nanak moves away from the hustle bustle of urbanisation and into the contemplative ambience of rural Punjab. Although, the message concealed is "*humility*" [*ਮਿਠਤੁ, sweet]* but the ideology is phenomenal. What Nanak used as a simile for sweetness is "*bay'rr*"[sweet fruit] and in his travels had seen many [inference on my part] which incidentally are quite unique to only sub-continent Indiana. The heavy ladened fruit tree [Bay'ree] which produces so sweet bay'rr, "hey ye human" says Nanak, "be thou art like the Bayree who is ever so low, touching ground and yet so sweet". In other words, become like the fruit tree, that is, the lower you are the sweeter you are.

The moral of it is, to get the best flavour of gurbani and appreciate its literary skill is to read it raw and to get wisdom to align your moral compass is another - depends which you so inclined.

Goodnight n Godbless

Pls make allowances for errors, shortfalls or wrongs unintentionally worded.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 14, 2015)

Original said:


> Pls make allowances for errors, shortfalls or wrongs unintentionally worded.



of course, but who is Guru Ravidas?


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## Original (Aug 14, 2015)

harry haller said:


> of course, but who is Guru Ravidas?



Good morning - H

As always, *hit'em where it hurts, *besides, 75% of philosophical investigation is solely dependent on the "question" - good question !

As per the contributors of gurmat stream within SGGSJ, we have the gurus, their relatives, minstrels, musicians, and saint poets [Bhagat's]. Although, Ravidas is considered a Bhagat per se, by virtue however, SGGSJ becoming the living Guru of the Sikh Panth and his writings forming thereof a part, renders him by logic, a guru.

Interesting observation on your part because I didn't know so much about India until I started visiting regularly. And, it was through my work within the disadvantaged communities I learnt that certain sects of Ravidas followings wanted his writings removed from SGGSJ for reasons of discrimination. In fact some may already have done that, but when that fell on my ears I took a stand to do something about it. And, fortunately to the best of my ability and endeavours to those whom I could reach out I did, reconciled and dismissed colour caste syndrome in light of Khalsa mat. I'm pleased to say that wisdom is "up in the air" amongst the ordinary, especially the young. Also, I took it on my head to educate the masses [disadvantaged] through religious excursions of various historical sites so as to include them within the main stream Sikh framework.

Hope I've succeeded in discharging an obligation with which you've burdened.

Much obliged - take care !


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 14, 2015)

Original ji, you deserve great compliments for your benevolent work.

On the same vein that you have suggested that we do not color as in your message few posts ago:



> Both however, must borne in mind not to water-down the facts so as to dilute the conveyance and rob its authenticity, classic case of which was evidenced by Japjisahib Ji above [more n chikor - verse 658].



We need to call things as these are. From getting the message, learning the wisdom or otherwise enjoy, I do not believe the authorship of a particular shabad holds any significance. These are all equal quality and integrity while dealing with various concepts conveyance.

Whether Guru Nanak is called just Nanak in the shabads or Farid is called Sheikh Farid and Ravi Das is called Bhagat Ravidas, it matters little. For the particular contribution all their qualities are at par in SGGS. So it is the wisdom that is significant in Sikhism and much less the persona. The following may not be accurate but look at the contributors to SGGS:



> Kabir
> Ravidas
> Namdev
> Bhagat Beni
> ...


For a specific contribution, again none is less or more than anyone else. However, we can of course observe the level of contributions varying from one or two shabads all the way to large collected works like Japji Sahib, Sukhmani Sahib, etc.

So the Guruship is external to writings in SGGS. It is limited to the ten Gurus and the final embodiment in SGGS as the 11th and final. So we cannot create other Gurus in Sikhism!

For me each and every Shabad deserves equal reverence, respect, love so that we can latch on to the wisdom therein.

Just some thoughts with respect.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (Aug 14, 2015)

you see, the way i see it....

if the author is Waheguru (which is is)...then the Guru's, the bhagats, the saints etc etc that were infused with waheguru were able to know instantly upon coming across shabads written by the hands of others as to their authenticity and where it came from.

they walked the earth...and from time to time, they came across shabad and thought "ahhhhh....that is Gurbani...bani from my sat guru *waheguru" ... it must be included in the SGGS ji"

i don;t think i have ever really looked very much into the physical author...i want to read SGGS Ji as the writing of waheguru...


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 14, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> you see, the way i see it....
> 
> if the author is Waheguru (which is is)...then the Guru's, the bhagats, the saints etc etc that were infused with waheguru were able to know instantly upon coming across shabads written by the hands of others as to their authenticity and where it came from.
> 
> ...


chazSingh ji thanks for your post.

It is dangerous to somehow equate SGGS to "God Speak" as in Bible or other religious scriptures. Guru ji or other contributors were always portraying and believing that they were just like you and me and did not have any special message from God to convey to others. They shared wisdom that does come to people so blessed in many ways who start to understand creator and creation. So Gurbani is about the "Gur/God-creator" but it is not by "Gur/God-creator".

Let us be very careful in this regard. If it was "God Speak" one would close the eyes and believe. Hardly the description of a Sikh, a learner. A true Sikh can see wisdom presented and deduced or illustrated in many ways rather than blind acceptance. SGGS of course being a wonderful source of such wisdom and a great treatise to learn from.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 14, 2015)

Original said:


> The operative word or shall we say, "romantic" line used by Ravidas Ji was, "*sachi preet" *meaning *true love* and building it around the metaphors of mountain-pea{censored} and moon-chikor was to bring out the best punjabi folklore of the natives of Punjab.


 Let us look back at the rahao which is the central idea of the sabd 'ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ - the misunderstanding comes when I link 'ਮਾਧਵੇ' with God - God is all love - inevitable laws of nature, thus prayer are not to the God but to my manh which needs to be sachiar, if you don’t help me to break this chain of shortcomings by walking on the laws of nature, then I cannot get away from my shortcomings. Reflecting the central idea on the entire sabd will show that bhagat Ravidas is trying to tell that sachi preet is only by surrendering and walking with laws of nature and all other preet of morni etc is kachi preet or infatuation. No doubt metaphors of mountain-pea{censored} and moon-chikor are punjabi folklore of the natives of Punjab but it is all one sided as ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪਰੀ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੰਗੁ ਛਾਡਿਤ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਆਵਤ ਨੇਰੈ ॥੧॥ SGGS.634


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## chazSingh (Aug 14, 2015)

Ambarsaria said:


> chazSingh ji thanks for your post.
> 
> It is dangerous to somehow equate SGGS to "God Speak" as in Bible or other religious scriptures. Guru ji or other contributors were always portraying and believing that they were just like you and me and did not have any special message from God to convey to others. They shared wisdom that does come to people so blessed in many ways who start to understand creator and creation. So Gurbani is about the "Gur/God-creator" but it is not by "Gur/God-creator".
> 
> ...


All is waheguru...only the ego think otherwise

God bless


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## Original (Aug 17, 2015)

Ambarsaria said:


> Original ji, you deserve great compliments for your benevolent work.
> 
> On the same vein that you have suggested that we do not color as in your message few posts ago:
> 
> ...



Respected Ambarsaria Ji - it's a pleasure to reciprocate on such divine executions.

Once again, credit where it's due, *saa'up b mar jaya par lathi b na tutta [*kill the snake without breaking the stick], I think you've managed to do that nicely, point taken, presented subtly and effectively, but not consistently in my view with teleological* view of the world. Guru Nanak's advent upon humanity was to *unite* humankind and not divide. *Guru* as a prefix to Ravidas is both legitimately and virtuously ordained for he was by definition a guru to many, including princess Meera, Maharaja Pipa, and so much more before Guru Nanak came on to the scene. Yes, within the Sikh diaspora that title is nul n void but not altogether inappropriate on the whole for Ravidas had a trendmendous following and still has.
To call him "guru" is an honour for us as Sikhs to show not only our respect but to concur with the proclamation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in conferring Guruship on SGGSJ to which he is part.

Let us as you rightly appropriated attach value to the permanence of being [God] rather then to why the being.

Much obliged !

* the view that everything has an ultimate end or purpose towards which it will inevitably develop [378 SGGSJ - God realisation].


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 17, 2015)

Original said:


> Guru Nanak's advent upon humanity was to *unite* humankind and not divide. *Guru* as a prefix to Ravidas is both legitimately and virtuously ordained for he was by definition a guru to many, including princess Meera, Maharaja Pipa, and so much more before Guru Nanak came on to the scene. Yes, within the Sikh diaspora that title is nul n void but not altogether inappropriate on the whole for Ravidas had a trendmendous following and still has.
> To call him "guru" is an honour for us as Sikhs to show not only our respect but to concur with the proclamation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in conferring Guruship on SGGSJ to which he is part


When  Guru sahib proclaimed SGGS as sabd guru for us it was to bring oneness and Sabd as guru, otherwise 'ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੀਆ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਜੀਆਂ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੬॥ we again tear apart and divide the message.SGGS.1191.4


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## chazSingh (Aug 17, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> When  Guru sahib proclaimed SGGS as sabd guru for us it was to bring oneness and Sabd as guru, otherwise 'ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੀਆ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਜੀਆਂ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੬॥ we again tear apart and divide the message.SGGS.1191.4



the divine light fully manifest within all the authors was 'guru' all else is dust. so yes, it is 'one' and the author is 'one'...the fuly manifest jyot...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 17, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> the divine light fully manifest within all the authors was 'guru' all else is dust. so yes, it is 'one' and the author is 'one'...the fuly manifest jyot...



<scratching head> so how many Gurus does that make


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 17, 2015)

Harry vir/brother, you need to give our brother/sister chazSingh a break. If chazSingh ji wants to call the creator, the truth that describes the creator as Guru, I don't have much qualms per se. He/she is madly in love with SGGS and all those who contributed to it; as well as the thing/light/jyot that drove them to such endeavor. There is nothing wrong with that. It may only invoke a different mode of understanding the SGGS. 

While I should not generalize there is a phrase that perhaps is appropriate. It goes "Love makes you blind!". As long as one understand a possible limitation that we impose through love and trade it against the benefits of love, one can appropriately handle, adjust and all can work good. Hope it is not cryptic .

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Original ji has done great posts in this thread and the thread is wonderful. Thank you for starting this thread.


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## chazSingh (Aug 18, 2015)

harry haller said:


> <scratching head> so how many Gurus does that make



p*aa*rabreham param*ae*sar sath*i*g*u*r ham b*aa*r*i*k th*u*mh p*i*th*aa* k*i*rap*aa*l ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
_O Supreme Lord God, Transcendent Lord, O True Guru, I am Your child, and You are my Merciful Father. ||1||Pause||_

m*o*h*i* n*i*rag*u*n g*u*n n*aa*h*ee* k*oee* pah*u*ch n s*aa*ko th*u*mhar*ee* gh*aa*l ||

_I am worthless; I have no virtues at all. I cannot understand Your actions._

th*u*mar*ee* gath m*i*th th*u*m h*ee* j*aa*nah*u* j*ee*o p*i*(n)dd sabh th*u*mar*o* m*aa*l ||1||

_You alone know Your state and extent. My soul, body and property are all Yours. ||1||_

a(n)tharaj*aa*m*ee* p*u*rakh s*uaa*m*ee* anab*o*lath h*ee* j*aa*nah*u* h*aa*l ||

_You are the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts, the Primal Lord and Master; You know even what is unspoken._

than man s*ee*thal h*o*e ham*aa*r*o* n*aa*nak prabh j*ee*o nadhar n*i*h*aa*l ||2||5||121||

_My body and mind are cooled and soothed, O Nanak, by God's Glance of Grace. ||2||5||121||_


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## chazSingh (Aug 18, 2015)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry vir/brother, you need to give our brother/sister chazSingh a break. If chazSingh ji wants to call the creator, the truth that describes the creator as Guru, I don't have much qualms per se. He/she is madly in love with SGGS and all those who contributed to it; as well as the thing/light/jyot that drove them to such endeavor. There is nothing wrong with that. It may only invoke a different mode of understanding the SGGS.
> 
> While I should not generalize there is a phrase that perhaps is appropriate. It goes "Love makes you blind!". As long as one understand a possible limitation that we impose through love and trade it against the benefits of love, one can appropriately handle, adjust and all can work good. Hope it is not cryptic .
> 
> ...




love is indeed blind my good friend 

but when the light shines in the courtyard of the mind...*one starts to see once again*...one can only but utter (mentally) ... Waheguru.... Wondrous Guru...oh my wondrous Guru

ch*aa*dhan*aa* ch*aa*dhan a*aa(n)*gan prabh j*ee*o a(n)thar ch*aa*dhan*aa* ||1||

_Moonlight, moonlight - in the courtyard of the mind, let the moonlight of God shine down. ||1||_

*aa*r*aa*dhhan*aa* ar*aa*dhhan n*ee*k*aa* har har n*aa*m ar*aa*dhhan*aa* ||2|| _Meditation, meditation - sublime is meditation on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||2||_

h*iaa*gan*aa* th*iaa*gan n*ee*k*aa* k*aa*m kr*o*dhh l*o*bh th*iaa*gan*aa* ||3||

_Renunciation, renunciation - noble is the renunciation of sexual desire, anger and greed. ||3||_

m*aa*gan*aa* m*aa*gan n*ee*k*aa* har jas g*u*r th*ae* m*aa*gan*aa* ||4||

_Begging, begging - it is noble to beg for the Lord's Praise from the Guru. ||4||_

j*aa*gan*aa* j*aa*gan n*ee*k*aa* har k*ee*rathan meh*i* j*aa*gan*aa* ||5||

_Vigils, vigils - sublime is the vigil spent singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises. ||5||_

_http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3731

_

l*aa*gan*aa* l*aa*gan n*ee*k*aa* g*u*r charan*ee* man l*aa*gan*aa* ||6||

_Attachment, attachment - sublime is the attachment of the mind to the Guru's Feet. ||6||_

e*i*h b*i*dhh th*i*seh*i* par*aa*path*ae* j*aa* k*ai* masathak bh*aa*gan*aa* ||7||

_He alone is blessed with this way of life, upon whose forehead such destiny is recorded. ||7||_

kah*u* n*aa*nak th*i*s sabh k*i*shh n*ee*k*aa* j*o* prabh k*ee* saran*aa*gan*aa* ||8||1||4||

_Says Nanak, everything is sublime and noble, for one who enters the Sanctuary of God. ||8||1||4||_


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## Ishna (Aug 18, 2015)

Chaz Ji, page numbers please.


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## Original (Aug 18, 2015)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry vir/brother, you need to give our brother/sister chazSingh a break. If chazSingh ji wants to call the creator, the truth that describes the creator as Guru, I don't have much qualms per se. He/she is madly in love with SGGS and all those who contributed to it; as well as the thing/light/jyot that drove them to such endeavor. There is nothing wrong with that. It may only invoke a different mode of understanding the SGGS.
> 
> While I should not generalize there is a phrase that perhaps is appropriate. It goes "Love makes you blind!". As long as one understand a possible limitation that we impose through love and trade it against the benefits of love, one can appropriately handle, adjust and all can work good. Hope it is not cryptic .
> 
> ...


Ambarsaria Ji,

Much obliged for your compliments, and if I may a add a word or two about the instigator  Harry Haller, done everyone a great service, particularly, Sikhi. He is like a mid-wife who helps with the delivery of the new born and likewise, Harry, helps with the truth in all to come out and that in itself is what Baba Nanak's Sikhi is all about - giving birth to the true insight from within - yes, thank you H.

As a Cyber Sikh Community [CSC] interacting on a range of topics, it is on our part an obligation to be as accurate, as scholarly, and as disciplined as possible. The authenticity of the scriptures must be preserved and not sidetracked simply because we have evolved and miagrated to richer and more fertile environments. Impact of western industrialised societies where everything is funcky must be calculated on the balance of the spiritual and the physical in conjunction with one's belief n value. It is fundamentally important to preserve this kind of historical perspective for the continuity and the progress of Sikh Society as a whole. 

Human evolution was a linear progression from small- brained tree climbers to bipedal big brained modern humans. Should we disregard the candle which helped us find the light bulb ? No ! Similarly, we mustn't forget how simple n humble our beginnings were as the ordinary folks moving out of Africa at the crack of human exodus. Our thought, culture, ideas, science n technology, art, social skills, system of belief and the rest was all primitive compared to those of the western societies, stop weighing our ancestors in the scales of the westernised civilisations for the comparison is inequal. We were simply less developed as social organisms.

Know who you are and be proud for there is "now" a poverty amongst the affluent and the well-to-do western civil socities, the poverty of the spirit. The search for the  "who am I" is on, fortunately for us, children of Baba Nanak - we're blessed, let us embrace the rest of humanity and show by "example" how to live a life of a Sikh and bring about universal consonance.

Once again, thank you !

Pls make an allowance for the content and the delivery of the text for it is not directed at any one in particular but on the whole a reflection of the natives who have brought us forth this far albeit in different parts of the world.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 18, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> he divine light fully manifest within all the authors was 'guru' all else is dust. so yes, it is 'one' and the author is 'one'...the fully manifest jyot..


What I meant was that Guru sahib wanted to bring true baani of different cult/deras under one umbrella. Though Bhagat Ravidas, Kabir Jee and Sheikh Farid, Peepa Jee etc were enlightened and had written granth but guru sahib only selected what was in par with gurbani. Meera's love like chaz jee was not approved thus he didn't gave any credence to her writing in SGGS.  In order to avoid, ''ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੀਆ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਜੀਆਂ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੬॥ he guided us not to fall into the hands of different deras and glorify them individually but Sabd Guru. Gurbani is logical and is for meaningful purpose. What I am noticing there are followers of Ravidassi cult and they prefer to glorify his whole baani.


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## chazSingh (Aug 18, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Chaz Ji, page numbers please.



the link is in the shabad...albeit not where i intended to cut and paste


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## chazSingh (Aug 18, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> What I meant was that Guru sahib wanted to bring true baani of different cult/deras under one umbrella. Though Bhagat Ravidas, Kabir Jee and Sheikh Farid, Peepa Jee etc were enlightened and had written granth but guru sahib only selected what was in par with gurbani. Meera's love like chaz jee was not approved thus he didn't gave any credence to her writing in SGGS.  In order to avoid, ''ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੀਆ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਜੀਆਂ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੬॥ he guided us not to fall into the hands of different deras and glorify them individually but Sabd Guru. Gurbani is logical and is for meaningful purpose. What I am noticing there are followers of Ravidassi cult and they prefer to glorify his whole baani.



Meera's love like chaz jee was not approved?? <scratching head...or turban>


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 18, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> the link is in the shabad...albeit not where i intended to cut and paste


 It is at page 828.12


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## Original (Nov 8, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> <scratching head...or turban>


......gurbani has different layers of construction, conveyance, direct n indirect sources, form, language manipulation, ideological exploitation, exploration, articulation and a host of other agencies operating at various levels, yet, the theme is one and the same as other faiths and ideologies - God. What sets a Sikh apart from the rest of creation is "how" he/she lives. There is pattern, regularity, continuity, conformity, gracefulness and symmetry, which gives it an atheistic look called beauty.

Baba Nanak collected literature of renowned spiritual saints because the substance was the one and the same. Sikhs have been bestowed [bar Japjisahib Ji, joke] with a good sense of discrimination between right n wrong [vivek daan] and not between interfaith. Meera's love for the lord was eternal just as Heer's was for Ranjha. Gur ghar's drive n direction were remedial and celebratory in nature because the meaning and purpose of life laid elsewhere. Devotional side however, was in par with Heer Ranjha n Meera Krishna genre.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 9, 2015)

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

Baṇī gurū gurū hai baṇī vicẖ baṇī amriṯ sāre.

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.


ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥

Gur baṇī kahai sevak jan mānai parṯakẖ gurū nisṯāre. ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||


ਸਭੁ ਹੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਖਾਵਾਰੇ ॥

Sabẖ hai barahm barahm hai pasri▫ā man bīji▫ā kẖāvāre.

All is God, and God is the whole expanse; man eats what he has planted.


Rest here:
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=982


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## Ishna (Nov 9, 2015)

Did I miss the context for the above quote, Harkiran Ji? Sorry! It just seems a bit random.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 10, 2015)

It was in reference to what Chaz Ji was saying... how Bani is the Guru and Guru is God.  (Bottom of previous page I think).


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## hpsp (Jan 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> that's the beauty of Gurbani...it tells us that even an uneducated person can realize God...
> 
> i would say, to 'love' one requires no degrees and intellect...love comes from a deeper place...
> 
> ...



What exactly is meant by "realize God..." Kindly illumine..


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## hpsp (Jun 24, 2016)

Translations of metaphors has always been a difficult task. It depends upon the individual's perceptions. But overall these translations, howsoever, lacunic, have brought us closer to gurbani. After all all the translations by single author/translator cannot be incorrect. There may be patches where these differ from the message conveyed. I am very thankful for the efforts made by all the translators esp. Sant Singh Khalsa and Man Mohan Singh.The efforts of others are equally praiseworthy.


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 3, 2017)

hpsp said:


> What exactly is meant by "realize God..." Kindly illumine.


To be imbibe divine virtues and live accordingly is 'realize God'


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