# Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia



## Ishna

What is fate?

What is destiny?

What is pre-ordained?

What is meant by references in Gurbani to things being written in our destiny?

Example:

ਭੁਗਤਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਦਇਆ  ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਵਾਜਹਿ  ਨਾਦ  ॥
Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.
Let  spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The  Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.
ਆਪਿ  ਨਾਥੁ  ਨਾਥੀ  ਸਭ  ਜਾ  ਕੀ  ਰਿਧਿ  ਸਿਧਿ  ਅਵਰਾ  ਸਾਦ  ॥
Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ.
He  Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual  powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads  on a string.
ਸੰਜੋਗੁ  ਵਿਜੋਗੁ  ਦੁਇ  ਕਾਰ  ਚਲਾਵਹਿ  ਲੇਖੇ  ਆਵਹਿ  ਭਾਗ  ॥
Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg.
*Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.*
ਆਦੇਸੁ  ਤਿਸੈ  ਆਦੇਸੁ  ॥
Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.
I bow to Him, I humbly bow.
ਆਦਿ  ਅਨੀਲੁ  ਅਨਾਦਿ  ਅਨਾਹਤਿ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਵੇਸੁ  ॥੨੯॥
Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||29||
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||


​I am curious of the sangat's understanding as I have none of my own and recent discussion about hukam has got me wondering where these concepts fit in Sikhi.


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## Embers

Ishna said:


> What is fate?
> 
> What is destiny?
> 
> What is pre-ordained?
> 
> What is meant by references in Gurbani to things being written in our destiny?
> 
> 
> I am curious of the sangat's understanding as I have none of my own and recent discussion about hukam has got me wondering where these concepts fit in Sikhi.



Hello Ishna Ji, Sat Siri Akaal.
I can offer an answer based on my personal view to get the ball rolling. I think this is perhaps one of the most challenging questions.

For me, destiny, fate and anything which is pre-ordained is equivalent in meaning to Hukam; the Lord's command.

How would you feel if you knew that every action, every word was already pre-ordained by a God without hate ( nirbẖao nirvair)? Would there be need for concern?

My reasoning is that if I consider that what ever happens to me will be pre-ordained then I feel a sense of acceptance. It is important to note that with acceptance there is still a place for chardi kala, there is still action and choices to make, some easy some hard. However there is a sense that what ever happens my Lord will see me through. There is nothing I need to crave or avoid, come what may. :sippingcoffeemunda:

This acceptance is the acceptance of Hukam. To an outsider, they will see me act just as before, however I know that in my heart I have completely accepted Waheguru and with it peace will fill my mind. Ego, fear, sloth and hatred will diminish as infinite love fills my being.

Here is some quotes from Gurbani which I hope emphasise my points above;

Page 9, Line 1
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ ॥
गावनि तुधनो जती सती संतोखी गावनि तुधनो वीर करारे ॥
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvan ṯuḏẖno vīr karāre.
The celibates, the fanatics, and the *peacefully accepting* sing of You; *the fearless* warriors sing of You.
Guru Nanak Dev 

Page 209, Line 10
ਮਾਨਿ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਏ ਦੂਖਹ ਠਾਉ ਗਵਾਇਓ ॥
मानि आगिआ सरब सुख पाए दूखह ठाउ गवाइओ ॥
Mān āgi▫ā sarab sukẖ pā▫e ḏūkẖah ṯẖā▫o gavā▫i▫o.
*Accepting the Command of the Lord's Will, I have found total peace*; the home of suffering has been destroyed.
Guru Arjan Dev 

Page 896, Line 4
ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਨੇ ਰਲਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਖੇਹ ॥
बिनु माने रलि होवहि खेह ॥
Bin māne ral hovėh kẖeh.
*Without accepting*, you shall mingle with dust.
Guru Arjan Dev

Page 948, Line 7
ਸਭੁ ਇਕੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥
सभु इको हुकमु वरतदा मंनिऐ सुखु पाई ॥३॥
Sabẖ iko hukam varaṯḏā mani▫ai sukẖ pā▫ī. ||3||
The Hukam, the Command of the One Lord is * all-pervasive; accepting it, peace is found. *||3||
Guru Amar Das

Page 1085, Line 9
ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਾਸ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥
रंगि रते तेरै दास अपारे ॥
Rang raṯe ṯerai ḏās apāre.
*Your slaves are imbued with Your Infinite Love.*
Guru Arjan Dev 

Others will disagree, as before, the perception of free will and Hukam has to be considered personally, in reflection to one's own actions and hence not everyone will agree with me. Meditation on this is key. The fact that everyone will not agree, is in my opinion, ultimately hukam, although it may mascaraed as choice. Consequently His slaves can be carefree and leave the results to the Beloved Lord mundahug .


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## Harry Haller

> Others will disagree, as before, the perception of free will and Hukam has to be considered personally, in reflection to one's own actions and hence not everyone will agree with me. Meditation on this is key. The fact that everyone will not agree, is in my opinion, ultimately hukam, although it may mascaraed as choice. Consequently His slaves can be carefree and leave the results to the Beloved Lord  .



Meditation or contemplation?


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## Embers

harry haller said:


> Meditation or contemplation?



Can I go for both?icecreamkaur 
I like to have my cake and eat it too lol


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

When you have COME...your EXIT is already predetermined...Sanjog...VIJOG...One follows the Other. Thats WHY nothing ever BORN..can ever deny DEATH....its already WRITTEN !! Logical Order of HUKM one cna see daily all over...even in the stars and galaxies..new stars BORN..older ones becoming dwarfs and disappearing into Black Holes..CONTINOUS PRODUCTION LINE..ONGOING...conveyer belt endless....it never STOPS..Nothing ever GETS OFF...


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## Ishna

Thank you Embersji and Gyaniji

I will reply in more detail later, however my first thought on the back of Gyaniji's message is that hukam / predetermination is clearly seen on the large scale, but what about the day to day small-scale?

The fact that someone cuts me off in traffic and I toot my horn at them - is that predetermined?  The fact that you're reading this message - is that written in your destiny, or is it God's will?


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## Luckysingh

Ishna said:


> Thank you Embersji and Gyaniji
> 
> I will reply in more detail later, however my first thought on the back of Gyaniji's message is that hukam / predetermination is clearly seen on the large scale, but what about the day to day small-scale?
> 
> The fact that someone cuts me off in traffic and I toot my horn at them - is that predetermined? The fact that you're reading this message - is that written in your destiny, or is it God's will?


 
OK, good example here. Firstly, this is where in another post we are bringing hukam and karma into a similar equation. Therefore to understand the answer there has to be some kind of understanding there.

For me, personally I would have to say that someone cutting you up in traffic is Hukam or pre-determined but how you are to react to this is what will affect your karmic part. You could on one hand start cursing, swearing at the person- this is a very negative interaction.
OR, you could just say ''never mind, I will let them do that as I've probably done it myself without realising''', or something along those lines,- this is a positive karmic interaction.

About the fact that I am reading the message is because I've been exposed to it as I never set out looking for this subject or issue but it just cropped up, -In my opinion this again would be pre-determined and an act of hukam or pre-determined, as it came upto to me according to time and place.
Once again, the karmic influence will be how I interact and learn positivey from it or learn negatively. This is how this act of simple hukam could affect me in the future.

As mentioned above by Gyanji, pre-ordained is things like death etc that are set to happen in the future.
Whereas fate and destiny can be changed according to how we interact to certain situations.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Ishna Ji..
That someone could have chosen NOT to cut in..and you could have chosen not to hoot..how this is predetermined..its a choice...you can cut back IN and get a hoot back..so on..until a crash happens.....

I NEVER HOOT..no matter how close the cut..and my better half seated in the passenger seat never agrees...HOOT HOOT HOOT she will scream at me..that idiot that gadha just cut IN..and you never hooted..you coward...( ha ha..and IF I ever do HOOT..and the other guy gives me the middle finger and  glares at me..then my BH simply gets busy putting some lipstick ON...its YOUR HOOT..YOU GO OUT and FIGHT that gadha !!  so thats How i AVOID any "*PREDETERMINED*" bashing ups !! he he ...NO ROAD RAGE for me..pre determined or post determined..he he


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## Amarpal

*Ishna Ji,

[/FONT]*As I understand:

Our deeds, during present and past births, create what is referred to as 'Linga Sarira' in the ancient scripture of the land.

We are reborn to exhaust our past bad deeds and to evolve spiritually and to serve the creation of the 'Sat'. 

To the above effect our mission of life is created. This has important milestones. The 'Sat' creates the environment which is conducive to our realising the Milestones fixed for us in our Mission of Life. 'Sat' is always with us to help us achieve the mission of life.

Achieving a Milestone and moving on the other milestone is by our own efforts. If we go astray, 'Sat' puts additional difficulties in our path, in a way to make us redirected our efforts and come back to the path needed.

If we are not equal to the task 'Sat' make us pass through testing time where we learn and achieve the level needed to achieve the objectives of our mission's milestone.

While passing through this life time, we create additional Karmas which may be good or bad or both. Depend on this inventory of Karmas, we may come out as a more evolved being compare to with what we had ended our last life or more degraded one. This all gets recorded in our 'Linga Sarira'. 

When we accumulate good Karmas, our 'Linga Sarira' starts dissolving and a stage reaches, when we lose our I-ness; we become puneet and no karma can then get attached to us, because all our acts become selfless in the service of the 'Sat'. We become pure instrument of ‘Sat’; all that we do become an act of 'Sat'. With the result the 'Linga Sarira' gets dissolved fully and what is left is us is pure Atman which is nothing but Parmatma i.e. the 'Sat". At this stage, the person becomes 'Jeewan Mukta' i.e. liberated while living. When such person leaves this earthly body it merges with the 'Sat'. 

When the 'Linga Sarira' is terribly degraded, reaching the pinnacle of spirituality may not be possible in one lifetime and thus reaching that milestone is not incorporated in mission of life. As a result one does not reach that level of spirituality, no matter how much it tries. Then we say it is not *'Preordained'*.

If there is milestone incorporate in the mission of life (harsh or pleasant) and one reaches that it is referred to *'Preordained'*

The mission of life has to be accomplished in specific environment, may be in difficult situation in Ethiopia, or in a effluent materialistic society like in USA, or in pious environment of a really good ashram in Himalaya, to be in such environment is *'Preordained'.*

Guru Sahib has repeatedly asked us to ponder over Sabad; what I have said in this post is the result of such effort. In this way it is my understanding.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## Embers

Ishna said:


> Thank you Embersji and Gyaniji
> 
> I will reply in more detail later, however my first thought on the back of Gyaniji's message is that hukam / predetermination is clearly seen on the large scale, but what about the day to day small-scale?
> 
> The fact that someone cuts me off in traffic and I toot my horn at them - is that predetermined?  The fact that you're reading this message - is that written in your destiny, or is it God's will?



Sat siri akaal Ishna Ji and all,
On the micro, small-scale, there is thought, emotions and a fairly continuous flow of sense data. These started the day we were born and will continue until the body dies.

For each of us there is great degree of change going on in our thoughts, emotions, sense data, and the world around us. For example, whilst reading a child screams and my attention is distracted to the noise outside away from the book.

If someone were to ask me, "Why did you stop reading?"  I might reply:

1) I was reading, then I heard the child scream and so I stopped reading to listen.
or 
2) There was a child's scream and my attention moved to the noise.

In number 1) There is a sense of self-willed choice or ego e.g. "I stopped". It isn't a nasty evil ego, but rather there is a strong sensation of doership i.e. "_I stopped_ reading...".

In number 2) There is only movement and change based on attention and environment; both within us and outside of us. There is no ego or self-willed movement because all change simply happens. 


Number 1 is based on duality. There is a "me" (ego) and things go on around "me". Some things I like some I hate and I try to change what I hate and have the things I like. 

Number 2 is no duality, merged in the Lord. There is just change in and outside of the idea of "me", all change is His will, His Hukam. I accept all, even the feeling of like and the feeling of hate and all that appears to provoke those feelings. All is change and will come and go.

When you toot the car, it is a reaction. What made you think of tooting the horn? Earlier thoughts and ideas, some so remote or subtle that they were learnt and came naturally (like driving itself years after passing the test). Whilst there is the sensation that it is "me tooting" and that "I learnt to toot" then there will be duality and there may be a sense of separation from Sat (God).

This is my personal opinion as it stands today, but I welcome opposite views. I am not here to convince anyone of this view as it is not necessarily a comfortable view. The idea that we are not in control can cause discomfort.

_On a foot note_, I do not like the term "pre-determined", if I spoke Punjabi I would even look at the translations of Punjabi to English because I doubt that pre-determined or fate, are the best choice of meaning from the Punjabi words? They don't occur often in English either. Is someone able advise if there are other meanings, please e.g. 

Page 135, Line 7
ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗ ॥
कीता किछू न होवई लिखिआ धुरि संजोग ॥
Kīṯā kicẖẖū na hova▫ī likẖi▫ā ḏẖur sanjog.
By one's own actions, nothing can be done; *destiny was pre-determined* from the very beginning.
Guru Arjan Dev  

Page 280, Line 13
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
The *fate *of the slanderer is *pre-ordained* from the very beginning of time.
Guru Arjan Dev


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## Embers

Quick question, what is Likhia by the way? I did a quick search but couldn't see it.
Thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Likhiyah is .."whats written..apparently on our Forehead...in Opposite image..as in a Mirror..or like what we see on a STAMP ( Rubber stamp..the words appear upside down but when inked and pressed to paper..they become readable)


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## Ishna

As a point of interest the word 'likhia' appears in the first Paurhi of Japji Sahib on Ang (page) 1 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

ਸੋਚੈ  ਸੋਚਿ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਸੋਚੀ  ਲਖ  ਵਾਰ  ॥ 
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār. 
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times. ​ ਚੁਪੈ  ਚੁਪ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਲਾਇ  ਰਹਾ  ਲਿਵ  ਤਾਰ  ॥ 
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār. 
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within. ​ ਭੁਖਿਆ  ਭੁਖ  ਨ  ਉਤਰੀ  ਜੇ  ਬੰਨਾ  ਪੁਰੀਆ  ਭਾਰ  ॥ 
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār. 
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods. ​ ਸਹਸ  ਸਿਆਣਪਾ  ਲਖ  ਹੋਹਿ  ਤ  ਇਕ  ਨ  ਚਲੈ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥ 
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl. 
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end. ​ ਕਿਵ  ਸਚਿਆਰਾ  ਹੋਈਐ  ਕਿਵ  ਕੂੜੈ  ਤੁਟੈ  ਪਾਲਿ  ॥ 
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl. 
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? ​ ਹੁਕਮਿ  ਰਜਾਈ  ਚਲਣਾ  ਨਾਨਕ *ਲਿਖਿਆ*  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥੧॥ 
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak *likẖi▫ā* nāl. ||1|| 
O Nanak, it is *written *that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||​


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## Ishna

Thank you everyone for your replies thus far.  This will take some pondering.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

HUKM Razauii challnna...likhiyah....HUKM..the Laws of creation..Physics..gravity..speed of light etc etc HAVE to be followed...its WRITTEN...whats BORN MUST DIE...its written..its HUKM...if we jump off a building..we descend...its written..its HUKM of Gravity..rivers flow downwards..water turns to steam and forms clouds and rains back...all this is HUKM and we have to follow..chhallanna accordingly...the day we are BORN..the LAWS are there in Place...we follow...and if we ACCEPT we are Happy...if we Fight back..we are SORRY...


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## Harvir007

Nothing can actually be pre-ordained. One can't look in to the future, and I highly doubt that a celestial dictator can as well. Obviously certainties like death are bound to happen, but that can't be down to what's written in your 'destiny'. In my eyes, you make your own path, you're not put on one nor should you be told to follow one. Everything in life that occurs is down to what you do right now. To be told that there is a fate and destiny is evil in my eyes. You give people who cannot afford the luxury of faith something to cling on to which in the end may well be very futile. But hey-ho, just how I see it. :


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## Embers

Harvir007 said:


> Nothing can actually be pre-ordained. One can't look in to the future, and I highly doubt that a celestial dictator can as well. Obviously certainties like death are bound to happen, but that can't be down to what's written in your 'destiny'. In my eyes, you make your own path, you're not put on one nor should you be told to follow one. Everything in life that occurs is down to what you do right now. To be told that there is a fate and destiny is evil in my eyes. You give people who cannot afford the luxury of faith something to cling on to which in the end may well be very futile. But hey-ho, just how I see it. :



Hi Harvir Ji
I agree, really things are happening and we are doing things about it (or not as the case might be). To think of the future is to miss the present. For me 'God' dwells in the present and I wouldn't want to miss Him by worrying about the future (or the past). So yes, I agree, "rejoice in life!" wouldbe my reply to your ideas and "do good things!".


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## Harvir007

Embers said:


> Hi Harvir Ji
> I agree, really things are happening and we are doing things about it (or not as the case might be). To think of the future is to miss the present. For me 'God' dwells in the present and I wouldn't want to miss Him by worrying about the future (or the past). So yes, I agree, "rejoice in life!" wouldbe my reply to your ideas and "do good things!".



But see, as an Apatheist, I just can't grasp how you feel the need to not miss god. I fervently believe that regardless of whether or not there is a celestial dictator, my life just would not change in any amicable sense. So it is from this point that I conclude that I've just gotta keep moving forward and doing my thing. However I do appreciate your belief as you seem rather sincere. :


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## Harry Haller

> but see, as an Apatheist, I just can't grasp how you feel the need to not miss god. I fervently believe that regardless of whether or not there is a celestial dictator, my life just would not change in any amicable sense. So it is from this point that I conclude that I've just gotta keep moving forward and doing my thing. However I do appreciate your belief as you seem rather sincere.



As Sikhism does not, in my view, regard God as a celestial dictator, more of an invisible energy, a force, an order. And as I view God as completely non interventionist, and beyond requesting assistance, I am sorry to disappoint you but I find your writings completely within the realm of Sikhism as I understand it.


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## Harvir007

harry haller said:


> As Sikhism does not, in my view, regard God as a celestial dictator, more of an invisible energy, a force, an order. And as I view God as completely non interventionist, and beyond requesting assistance, I am sorry to disappoint you but I find your writings completely within the realm of Sikhism as I understand it.



Well Sikhism perceives god as a creator, we agree on this yes? Hmm, you may find my writings within the realm of Sikhism, but this is simply a matter of how you perceive the religion itself.


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## Ishna

If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the bhanna (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their action becomes hukam for someone else? Is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?

I asked my Christian friend what she thought about fate/destiny.  Her answer was that she doesn't use those terms, she uses 'God's plan'.  God has a plan for her in life, but it is up to her whether she follows it or not.  If she follows it, she fulfills her destiny.  But she has a choice not to follow it and reap the consequenses.

I said, what if it's your destiny NOT to follow the plan?  And with that, the discussion died.

It appears the whole 'pre-determined' translation arises from trying to convey the sense that 'if you do X, they Y will happen'.  For instance, taking the tuk Embersji cited:

Page 280, Line 13
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
The *fate *of the slanderer is *pre-ordained* from the very beginning of time.
Guru Arjan Dev ​I think, from my very small knowledge of Gurbani, that it shouldn't say 'from the beginning of time' because that is confusing.

If the faithless slanderer gets around being faithless and nasty, then he's setting himself up for failure.  If you set the pot of water on the heat, it is the FATE of the water to boil.  If you refuse to do good deeds, it is your FATE right from the beginning of your endeavour, to miss out on Realisation.  It is not pre-ordained by God since the dawn of time that there would exist Sam the Slanderer and he would slander and be nasty and die in loneliness.  It is the natural course of events from the beginning of Sam slandering that he dies in loneliness.

I think the translations are the problem.  gingerteakaur


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## Luckysingh

Harvir007 said:


> Well Sikhism perceives god as a creator, we agree on this yes? Hmm, you may find my writings within the realm of Sikhism, but this is simply a matter of how you perceive the religion itself.


 
In sikhism, the core is ek onkaar, there IS  the One, and there always was and will be.
Harvirji, I believe that you consider your life to be totally unaffected whether there is or isn't a god. I believe an apatheist does NOT deny such existence if any but denies that such a god can be or not be as it won't make any difference to them.

Therefore,I don't think that being an apatheist is in the realm of sikhism as in sikhism, knowing and having faith in the ONE is the core root of the religion.

I believe Harryji is thinking more on the lines that God is not a man in robes or a supreme being. He is a physical entity of some sort that is the source of all creation. When I say physical entity- it does not mean that he is composed of molecules like the rest of the universe, 
but he is the sourceof every single atom or molecule as such.

Sikhi doesn't define any descriptions of god, but then you can imagine him
as you wish. The only thing that is clear is that when one may be less attached and more closer to him, then they Know and feel his presence much closer.

We can't follow sikhi teachings if we assume that there is No God and there is only us and what we can see.


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## Harvir007

Luckysingh said:


> In sikhism, the core is ek onkaar, there IS  the One, and there always was and will be.
> Harvirji, I believe that you consider your life to be totally unaffected whether there is or isn't a god. I believe an apatheist does NOT deny such existence if any but denies that such a god can be or not be as it won't make any difference to them.
> 
> Therefore,I don't think that being an apatheist is in the realm of sikhism as in sikhism, knowing and having faith in the ONE is the core root of the religion.
> 
> I believe Harryji is thinking more on the lines that God is not a man in robes or a supreme being. He is a physical entity of some sort that is the source of all creation. When I say physical entity- it does not mean that he is composed of molecules like the rest of the universe,
> but he is the sourceof every single atom or molecule as such.
> 
> Sikhi doesn't define any descriptions of god, but then you can imagine him
> as you wish. The only thing that is clear is that when one may be less attached and more closer to him, then they Know and feel his presence much closer.
> 
> We can't follow sikhi teachings if we assume that there is No God and there is only us and what we can see.


Precisely what I'm saying, I don't believe in a benevolent power so I myself don't see myself in the 'realm' of Sikhism. Well no, I don't deny because it's unwise to do so. I can't say with 100% conviction that I deny there is a flying spaghetti monster either.


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## Ishna

> flying spaghetti monster


 
I've seen this reference many times.  Where is it from?


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## Harvir007

Ishna said:


> I've seen this reference many times.  Where is it from?


Probably Richard Dawkins.


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## Ishna

Thanks.

I've been watching a series on TV where Richard and his team dissect animals looking for clues to their evolution, like how the whale has redundant thigh bones from when it used to be a land mammal and how the giraffe has metres of nerve cord because it's neck didn't used to be so long so even though the nerve just has to go from one part of the heart to another it got caught up with a bundle of nerves so now the signal has to go all the way up the neck just to come all the way back down again, haha.

There is one moment in an episode (can't remember which one) where Richard actually says something like, 'what a strange design' or 'what a brilliant design' and his team start laughing at him because he said it without thinking, hehehe!

Oh look, I'm even taking my own threads off-topic now.  Go me! cheerleader


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## Luckysingh

Ishna said:


> If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?
> 
> Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the banana (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.
> 
> Also, how can anyone have a choice if their actin becomes someone else's hukam?is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?
> 
> I guess that would be true if there was an 'other' to be a puppet but no, it's all Creator in the soup. More later


 
There is the natural order of creation, that is what comes first after the initial creation- meaning after the order of God that created creation.
Now, this natural order is such that it can continue for eternity without any disturbances. Such as,. we have life cycles of every species and plant that can ALL be linked to one another. If these cycles had continued without interuption of man into this natural order then there would have been stable continuation forever, with life cycles simply cycling everywhere.

But, we don't have stability due to man interrupting this natural order.. I mean, we don't know when the next natural disaster will be and how many lfe cycles of species have been completely removed because of our behaviour.
This is only known and commanded under the Hukam, this hukam has had to change along with time from the intial creation. It changes to counteract the changes to the WHOLE creation.
Meaning that when we had creation at first there was the natural world order that was commanded by the initial hukam. When this natural order is upset and tampered wth, then the initial hukam has to change in order to keep the continuation.

I know so many people will not agree with this, because so many millions of lives are lost due to acts of God or nature.
-TRUE.. but I think we have to think of the whole universe in terms of molecular levels as that is what ALL of creation is composed of.

I'm pretty sure if someone has the chance to ask the Lord of how so many innocent lives are justified by a tsunami for eg. ..-Then I'm sure he could show you the balance sheets clarifying the whole molecular balance, it's interruptions and corrections.

NOTE- *This type of metaphor concerning balance, give and take, accounts..etc...etc.. is very important in understanding the whole creation.*
_Guru Nanak Ji used the same metaphor when mentioning Chitr, Gupt and Dharamraj..etc. to explain to us that good deeds and bad are all accounted for with regards to the whole creation. There is a knock on effect with all these doings. _
_It doesn't mean that we face the Lord and then he reads the account given by Daramraj that was compiled by chitr and gupt. BUT, it is ALL about understanding the Universal concept and not anything about the ''staff'' in the Lord's office!!!- _As there is no such office or staff from what I gather.
He is capable of ''*playing*'' all these roles as ONE.


Ishnaji, what you mentioned in the beginnig of your post about there being more than hukam such as the interactions by us..etc..
--YES, - you are correct and on the right track from what I think.
It is this change in order of hukam that comes after the changes caused by us in the Natural World Order.

If you understand what I mean by this, then you should also understand that ''karma'' does exist. This ''karma''  is regulated by our very interactions and actions that can in turn affect the Lord's Hukam. How he does it, which way he does it, is entirely upto him.

NOTE- my interpretaton of Karma has been mentioned elsewhere. It is NOT about setting yourself for your next incarnation or anything else vedic.
It is simply about the results from all your good and bad actions throughout time and how they affect others. Good karma does not been that i will be reborn as a maharaja. 
But it may mean that if I am in a car with 4 others and we crash, then my injuries may be less because of good karma or my outcome may be better than if I had too much bad karma. Of course, this is will all be regulated under hukam, especially if none of us die. 
But, the karma can affect the way we hande certain situations and outcomes.

  ...Above are only a fraction of examples, so if not clear, I will try to give more.


Sat Kartar


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## Embers

Ishna said:


> If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?
> 
> Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the bhanna (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, *but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.*


Thought provoking post, Ishna Ji.
I think for some Science has become their religion.
In my opinion man is a part of nature, it is Maya which makes man think he is separate from God and nature.



Ishna said:


> Also, how can anyone have a choice if their action becomes hukam for someone else? Is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?
> 
> I asked my Christian friend what she thought about fate/destiny.  Her answer was that she doesn't use those terms, she uses 'God's plan'.  God has a plan for her in life, but it is up to her whether she follows it or not.  If she follows it, she fulfills her destiny.  But she has a choice not to follow it and reap the consequenses.
> 
> I said, what if it's your destiny NOT to follow the plan?  And with that, the discussion died


.

Could it be that it is also God's plan that we think we have choice?
In Indian philosophy there is an example of a goat, tied by a rope to post in the ground, the goat thinks it is free to roam but in reality it is always bound to the post (God's will).



Ishna said:


> It appears the whole 'pre-determined' translation arises from trying to convey the sense that 'if you do X, they Y will happen'.  For instance, taking the tuk Embersji cited:
> 
> Page 280, Line 13
> ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
> किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
> Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
> The *fate *of the slanderer is *pre-ordained* from the very beginning of time.
> Guru Arjan Dev ​I think, from my very small knowledge of Gurbani, that it shouldn't say 'from the beginning of time' because that is confusing.
> 
> If the faithless slanderer gets around being faithless and nasty, then he's setting himself up for failure.  If you set the pot of water on the heat, it is the FATE of the water to boil.  If you refuse to do good deeds, it is your FATE right from the beginning of your endeavour, to miss out on Realisation.  It is not pre-ordained by God since the dawn of time that there would exist Sam the Slanderer and he would slander and be nasty and die in loneliness.  It is the natural course of events from the beginning of Sam slandering that he dies in loneliness.
> 
> I think the translations are the problem.  gingerteakaur


I took this verse more lightly to mean that "if you continue to slander you will always suffer". So rather than a person being a Slanderer for ever it may mean that the fate of slandering will always be suffering and this has been pre-ordained from the beginning of time. Really a person may not always be a slanderer through their many lives, I feel God is merciful and people will change even their bad ways.

Best wishes.


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## Harry Haller

> Could it be that it is also God's plan that we think we have choice?
> In Indian philosophy there is an example of a goat, tied by a rope to post in the ground, the goat thinks it is free to roam but in reality it is always bound to the post (God's will).



The SGGS makes many points about the benefit of following God's will as opposed to your own. I think we have full choice, and my body bears the scars of the consequences of that choice. 

The reality is that our fate is in our own hands, the end result is known only to Creator. In that sense, it is fated, but only in the sense that each action has its outcome already known, rather than being limited to a written single action/outcome. 

We are free to choose whatever action we wish, be it our ego writing cheques that our bodies cannot cash, which results in moral bankruptcy and distance from Creator, to concentrating on love, compassion, understanding, contentment, which brings us closer to Creator. 

The closer we get, the happier we are, the further away, the more we have to chase the dragon. 

It is our choice, we make our own fate, the wise amongst us knows the outcome of each action, and plant seeds accordingly, the stupid, myself included, also know the outcome, but plant seeds for today, not tommorow

my opinion only


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## Embers

I like your view Harry Ji, you made an impression on me in an earlier post too.
Your joke above on the circles made me laugh!

I think that a person's view, where ever it falls on the scale between 'complete free will to complete determinism', is the right view for that person at that time in their life. And I am happy with that.


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## Embers

I am sorry that you deleted your post, Ishna Ji. Although I am sure you know best. 0

I thought your post was excellent and I read it but didn't have time to reply earlier. I will try to contribute something further to this topic in the comings days, as I think there is still a few things to cover, if no one minds (I am happy to be corrected).


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## Embers

We will always have choice.
I think there is a sensation that Hukam implies we will loose our choice, or that because we have choices to make then Hukam doesn’t apply to everything.

I would like to share my understanding and learn from others based on that.

There seems to be a contradiction. The contradiction is between two types of verse in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Really there is not a contradiction but two views used interchangeably.

The two types of verses might be summarised as: 1) That everyting is Hukam and 2) that there is a choice to make which leads to be Gurmukh or Manmukh.

The contradiction is eliminated or becomes clearer in my opinion, if we tackle the two views of Indian philosophy then look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in light of those views with a few examples. We can then come back to Hukam and choice. The two views are:

1) The Absolute view, that of God being everything.
2) The Relative view, that of humans and our interaction

In my humble opinion the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji moves between both views, continuously painting a picture, forcing us to open our eyes:

Here is the Absolute view, from how God must see it:

Page 11, Line 12
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūŉ āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.
Guru Ram Das

Here is the Relative view of how we see it, it tends to imply action and choice:

Page 23, Line 15
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.
Guru Nanak Dev

Here is an Absolute view followed by a Relative view in bold:

Page 35, Line 1
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सभ किछु आपे आपि है हउमै विचि कहनु न जाइ ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ha▫umai vicẖ kahan na jā▫e.
God Himself is everything; *those who are in their ego cannot even speak of this.*
Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


If we recognise that we can start to see these two views: Absolute and Relative and how they mix or appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we can start to see that there is not a contradiction but rather two ways of seeing things. This has the advantage that we can live life from either view (Absolute or Relative or both). We can make choices on the Relative view knowing that really everyting is God so really all we are doing is just as God permits based on the Absolute view. It is so because if everything is God then how would anything not be done under His command (Absolute view)?

I will post again on choice and how these two views explain Hukam and choice.


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## Harry Haller

Embers said:


> We will always have choice.
> I think there is a sensation that Hukam implies we will loose our choice, or that because we have choices to make then Hukam doesn’t apply to everything.
> 
> I would like to share my understanding and learn from others based on that.
> 
> There seems to be a contradiction. The contradiction is between two types of verse in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Really there is not a contradiction but two views used interchangeably.
> 
> The two types of verses might be summarised as: 1) That everyting is Hukam and 2) that there is a choice to make which leads to be Gurmukh or Manmukh.
> 
> The contradiction is eliminated or becomes clearer in my opinion, if we tackle the two views of Indian philosophy then look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in light of those views with a few examples. We can then come back to Hukam and choice. The two views are:
> 
> 1) The Absolute view, that of God being everything.
> 2) The Relative view, that of humans and our interaction
> 
> In my humble opinion the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji moves between both views, continuously painting a picture, forcing us to open our eyes:
> 
> Here is the Absolute view, from how God must see it:
> 
> Page 11, Line 12
> ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
> तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
> Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūŉ āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
> Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.
> Guru Ram Das
> 
> Here is the Relative view of how we see it, it tends to imply action and choice:
> 
> Page 23, Line 15
> ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
> इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
> Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
> Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.
> Guru Nanak Dev
> 
> Here is an Absolute view followed by a Relative view in bold:
> 
> Page 35, Line 1
> ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
> सभ किछु आपे आपि है हउमै विचि कहनु न जाइ ॥
> Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ha▫umai vicẖ kahan na jā▫e.
> God Himself is everything; *those who are in their ego cannot even speak of this.*
> Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
> 
> 
> If we recognise that we can start to see these two views: Absolute and Relative and how they mix or appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we can start to see that there is not a contradiction but rather two ways of seeing things. This has the advantage that we can live life from either view (Absolute or Relative or both). We can make choices on the Relative view knowing that really everyting is God so really all we are doing is just as God permits based on the Absolute view. It is so because if everything is God then how would anything not be done under His command (Absolute view)?
> 
> I will post again on choice and how these two views explain Hukam and choice.



wahkaur

My thoughts are similar, I think when you try and understand Creators thinking, you are always going to come unstuck, which is maybe why we have to rationalise our thinking and accept that we will only ever see the human point of view


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## Ishna

Embersji, your eloquence is astounding.  Thank you for taking the time from your studies to help a noob like me grasp at some understanding.  kaurhug


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## Luckysingh

We have discussed Hukam, Destiny and Free-Will, with some great and informative posts by Embersji, Ishnaji and Harryji. 

There is an angle that has been touched slightly, but not gone in too deep!
That is '' How do we put Hukam, destiny and free-will, ALL occuring simultaneously together ?'' or ''How can they co-exist together if Free-Will can be controlled by us and Hukam is the divine order ?''

In practical life, when is something ALL under Hukam and when is something completely self controlled or done by self-will for shaping and deviating the directions of our future ?
We try and think that favourable consequences and actions have been controlled by self-will. However, when we can't explain or understand something, then we blame others or we blame the Lord's Hukam (oh, it was the Lord's will and order that such a tragedy happened!!)


Gurbani teaches us the essence and how to live in a gurmat manner. It can help shape our mode of thinking and evaluating into a gurmat mode, providing we can feel the essence and feel the frequency of vibrations that the ShabadGuru speaks in.
In this manner, we may come to strong conclusions or understanding of such questions as in the above. 
We can't always get answers or explanations from specific pages, but we can try and conclude from what is given throughout. 
In our minds, we have vast information and teachings all scrambled that have come from the bani....ie.-a little from different pages throughout that have made their imprints in our brains all scattered around.

Saying this, I can't just put 2 and 2 together to give a straight direct answer to the above, but I can try and enhance our understanding of the matter.

So, here goes-

- We know from many references that we are under the stranglehold of Maya or the illusion of maya. *This Maya that fuels our Ego and is itself fuelled by Ego, makes the huge obstacle in connecting with the Lord.*

_All the attachments, desires and love for worldly things help enhance our EGO, the me, me, me, me, me...........*This EGO is what thrives in the ILLUSION.*_

This Ego also convinces us that we can do this, do that, like this, like that...........it does a fantastic job giving us the Self-Will.
*All this Self-Will is only existent under the Illusion of Maya*.

Along with other factors, this is what defines us as Manmukh.

_*If we could conquer and eradicate our very own Ego, then the Illusion of Maya would disappear, thus we would be* *free from our misleading self-will, and be Gurmukh.*_

When Gurmukh, you have no will or desire to be planning and shaping for an illusion, you are in the Now and Eternity simultaneously all under the Divine Hukam.This hukam was always present but not always evident.

To become Gurmukh by completely removing Ego and experience of Maya is not easy, but the total of 1430 pages all direct us this way. Therefore, if we start trying to define how to get there, our message won't even scratch the surface that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji breaks through.

There are many references in bani that quote *''The Self-Willed Manmukhs.''*
This self-will is exactly what it is and says, it's all for the interests of SELF.
This self is perceived ONLY under the illusion, Once a Gurmukh, there is NO MORE Self.

....*ALL is HIS...jo kich hai so therah..*

Page 1081
Guru Arjan Dev Ji
ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ 

Mārū solhe mėhlā 5 

Maaroo, Solhas, Fifth Mehl: 


ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 

Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 


ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਕੀਤਾ ॥ 

Ŧū sāhib ha▫o sevak kīṯā. 

You are my Lord and Master; You have made me Your servant. 


ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਤਾ ॥ 

Jī▫o pind sabẖ ṯerā ḏīṯā. 

My soul and body are all gifts from You. 


ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਸਭੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਸਾੜਾ ॥੧॥ 

Karan karāvan sabẖ ṯūhai ṯūhai hai nāhī kicẖẖ asāṛā. ||1|| 

You are the Creator, the Cause of causes; nothing belongs to me. ||1|| 


ਤੁਮਹਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਤਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ ॥ 

Ŧumėh paṯẖā▫e ṯā jag mėh ā▫e. 

When You sent me, I came into the world. 


ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ ॥ 

Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāṇā se karam kamā▫e. 

Whatever is pleasing to Your Will, I do. 


ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਤਾ ਭੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ॥੨॥ 

Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kicẖẖū na ho▫ā ṯā bẖī nāhī kicẖẖ kāṛā. ||2|| 

Without You, nothing is done, so I am not anxious at all. ||2|| 


ਊਹਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥ 

Ūhā hukam ṯumārā suṇī▫ai. 

In the world hereafter, the Hukam of Your Command is heard. 


ਈਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਣੀਐ ॥ 

Īhā har jas ṯerā bẖaṇī▫ai. 

In this world, I chant Your Praises, Lord. 


ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥ 

Āpe lekẖ alekẖai āpe ṯum si▫o nāhī kicẖẖ jẖāṛā. ||3|| 

You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3|| 


ਤੂ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਥਾਰੇ ॥ 

Ŧū piṯā sabẖ bārik thāre. 

You are our father; we are all Your children. 


ਜਿਉ ਖੇਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਖੇਲਣਹਾਰੇ ॥ 

Ji▫o kẖelāvėh ṯi▫o kẖelaṇhāre. 

We play as You cause us to play. 


ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥ 

Ujẖaṛ mārag sabẖ ṯum hī kīnā cẖalai nāhī ko vepāṛā. ||4|| 

The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4|| 


ਇਕਿ ਬੈਸਾਇ ਰਖੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਅੰਤਰਿ ॥ 

Ik baisā▫e rakẖe garih anṯar. 

Some remain seated within their homes. 


ਇਕਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ॥ 

Ik paṯẖā▫e ḏes disanṯar. 

Some wander across the country and through foreign lands. 


ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਘਾਸੁ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜਾ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕੂੜਾ ॥੫॥ 

Ik hī ka▫o gẖās ik hī ka▫o rājā in mėh kahī▫ai ki▫ā kūṛā. ||5|| 

Some are grass-cutters, and some are kings. Who among these can be called false? ||5|| 


ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਨਰਕਾ ॥ 

Kavan so mukṯī kavan so narkā. 

Who is liberated, and who will land in hell? 


ਕਵਨੁ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਭਗਤਾ ॥ 

Kavan saisārī kavan so bẖagṯā. 

Who is worldly, and who is a devotee? 


ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਹੋਛਾ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਜੜਾ ॥੬॥ 

Kavan so ḏānā kavan so hocẖẖā kavan so surṯā kavan jaṛā. ||6|| 

Who is wise, and who is shallow? Who is aware, and who is ignorant? ||6|| 


ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ ॥ 

Hukme mukṯī hukme narkā. 

By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell. 


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ ॥ 

Hukam saisārī hukme bẖagṯā. 

By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee. 


ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਛਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਧੜਾ ॥੭॥ 

Hukme hocẖẖā hukme ḏānā ḏūjā nāhī avar ḏẖaṛā. ||7|| 

By His Hukam, one is shallow, and by His Hukam, one is wise. There is no other side except His. ||7|| 


ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਅਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਰਾ ॥ 

Sāgar kīnā aṯ ṯum bẖārā. 

You made the ocean vast and huge. 


ਇਕਿ ਖੜੇ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥ 

Ik kẖaṛe rasāṯal kar manmukẖ gāvārā. 

You made some into foolish self-willed manmukhs, and dragged them into hell. 


ਇਕਨਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਬੇੜਾ ॥੮॥ 

Iknā pār langẖāvėh āpe saṯgur jin kā sacẖ beṛā. ||8|| 

Some are carried across, in the ship of Truth of the True Guru. ||8|| 


ਕਉਤਕੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ॥ 

Ka▫uṯak kāl ih hukam paṯẖā▫i▫ā. 

You issue Your Command for this amazing thing, death. 


ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਓਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 

Jī▫a janṯ opā▫e samā▫i▫ā. 

You create all beings and creatures, and absorb them back into Yourself. 


ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਸਭਿ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਆਖਾੜਾ ॥੯॥ 

vekẖai vigsai sabẖ rang māṇe racẖan kīnā ik ākẖāṛā. ||9|| 

You gaze in delight upon the one arena of the world, and enjoy all the pleasures. ||9|| 


ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ॥ 

vadā sāhib vadī nā▫ī. 

Great is the Lord and Master, and Great is His Name. 


ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਵਡੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਾਈ ॥ 

vad ḏāṯār vadī jis jā▫ī. 

He is the Great Giver; Great is His place. 


ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਤੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਾੜਾ ॥੧੦॥ 

Agam agocẖar be▫anṯ aṯolā hai nāhī kicẖẖ āhāṛā. ||10|| 

He is inaccessible and unfathomable, infinite and unweighable. He cannot be measured. ||10|| 


ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥ 

Kīmaṯ ko▫e na jāṇai ḏūjā. 

No one else knows His value. 


ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ 

Āpe āp niranjan pūjā. 

Only You Yourself, O Immaculate Lord, are equal to Yourself. 


ਆਪਿ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਤਵੰਤਾ ਅਤਿ ਗਾੜਾ ॥੧੧॥ 

Āp so gi▫ānī āp ḏẖi▫ānī āp saṯvanṯā aṯ gāṛā. ||11|| 

You Yourself are the spiritual teacher, You Yourself are the One who meditates. You Yourself are the great and immense Being of Truth. ||11|| 


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin gupaṯ kahā▫i▫ā. 

For so many days, You remained invisible. 


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin sunn samā▫i▫ā. 

For so many days, You were absorbed in silent absorption. 


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਰਗਟੜਾ ॥੧੨॥ 

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin ḏẖunḏẖūkārā āpe karṯā pargatṛā. ||12|| 

For so many days, there was only pitch darkness, and then the Creator revealed Himself. ||12|| 


ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤੀ ਸਬਲੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 

Āpe sakṯī sabal kahā▫i▫ā. 

You Yourself are called the God of Supreme Power. 

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥ 

Āpe sūrā amar cẖalā▫i▫ā. 

You Yourself are the hero, exerting Your regal power. 


ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਵਰਤਾਈਅਨੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਠਾਰੁ ਗੜਾ ॥੧੩॥ 

Āpe siv varṯā▫ī▫an anṯar āpe sīṯal ṯẖār gaṛā. ||13|| 

You Yourself spread peace within; You are cool and icy calm. ||13|| 


ਜਿਸਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਜੇ ॥ 

Jisahi nivāje gurmukẖ sāje. 

One whom You bless and make Gurmukh - 


ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥ 

Nām vasai ṯis anhaḏ vāje. 

the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him. 


ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਾ ॥੧੪॥ 

Ŧis hī sukẖ ṯis hī ṯẖakurā▫ī ṯisėh na āvai jam neṛā. ||14|| 

He is peaceful, and he is the master of all; the Messenger of Death does not even approach him. ||14|| 


ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ 

Kīmaṯ kāgaḏ kahī na jā▫ī. 

His value cannot be described on paper. 


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥ 

Kaho Nānak be▫anṯ gusā▫ī. 

Says Nanak, the Lord of the world is infinite. 


ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਥਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੈ ਨੇਬੇੜਾ ॥੧੫॥ 

Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ parabẖ so▫ī hāth ṯisai kai nebeṛā. ||15|| 

In the beginning, in the middle and in the end, God exists. judgment is in His Hands alone. ||15|| 


ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਕੋਈ ॥ 

Ŧisėh sarīk nāhī re ko▫ī. 

No one is equal to Him. 


ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਬੁਤੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ 

Kis hī buṯai jabāb na ho▫ī. 

No one can stand up against Him by any means. 


ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਚੋਜ ਖੜਾ ॥੧੬॥੧॥੧੦॥ 

Nānak kā parabẖ āpe āpe kar kar vekẖai cẖoj kẖaṛā. ||16||1||10|| 

Nanak's God is Himself all-in-all. He creates and stages and watches His wondrous plays. ||16||1||10|| 



I think the above should give a better understanding to the questions I and many others do question from time to time.

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Luckysingh

Hukam is also the ultimate master and governer at the very top of the chart.
Destiny, fate and free-will are ALL situated beneath this on the chart and are all part of the governing divine hukam.


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## Embers

What super posts, LuckySingh Ji!
I agree with you, there is something blocking us from putting 2 and 2 together. Every person is struggling or has struggled with this because that which hampers you and it also hampers each person. I see that which hampers us as Maya (ego is a part of Maya).

My view is that Maya and the ego are the creation of Sat or God. I am using Sat to try to avoid the perception of an overlord. We seem to have accepted that Sat is everything. So whilst someone is under Maya's sway they are blind to Sat. They think life is about pleasure or aversion and they think they must act to get what they want or avoid what they do not want. Consequently, like it or not, they are moved by their self-will. There is no peace of mind because they cannot see a way out other than to act in their best interest (self-will). Because Maya and ego are creation of Sat, we can then say that it is Sat's will that some are blinded and some see. For it is also Sat's will that Maya and ego can be overcome.

When a person recognises that everything is the Sat, then there is no reason to seek pleasure or avoid aversion (based on a sense of self will), both come as they are both inherent in Sat. Everything is happening including the choices they make. They no longer need to fear as everything is happening to Sat, in Sat by Sat. Even choices can be seen as Sat’s choices being made through body and mind. The body and mind is also Sat (Created by Sat). 

So how does this work practically?

In my view a Gursikh goes about his or her day just as before, but the Gursikh knows that everything is Sat. Their body is Sat and can be compared to Sat's tool. Their choices are Sat, and can be compared to making choices for Sat. There can be a sensation of "I act" but it is known intuitvely that there is action and choices; some difficult, some easy, as Sat. 

There is another way we can see this. When you are reading this you will hear your inner voice, similar to how you hear your voice when speaking to others aloud. That inner voice is really just memory or sound. Deluded by Maya we say "That is me thinking" when we hear the voice. Really that is thinking, and there is no me as such behind it. That doesn't imply nihilism or anatta but rather the ego is not doing the talking.

This is a very tricky topic and I hope my ideas don't complicate it further. If they do I am happy to readdress them with you all.  Of course I would like to read your own views.


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## Luckysingh

Sat sri akaal Embersji,
 Thanks for your kind response, it is a very tricky topic indeed.
I think you have got the idea quite well !!

It makes you realise how easy it is for us manmukhs to misguide ourselves. If we try and look into other gurbani bearing this in mind, it all begins to open newer doorways !!

For Eg... just a look at '' Mann jithey jagjeet''
        and you immediately realise that you can't just conquer your mind in a few steps, but it is an even more difficult process than you previously imagined. We have the whole illusion to deal with as well!!

The maya and ego are all created by the sat, as you mentioned, and they are also what makes our characters. However, this whole character and illusion gets left behind completely when one becomes gurmukh and merges with the sat. 

It seems like it is all created to make us what we are or become whilst in the creation.
A little like how in bani, it mentions all the world being a huge stage of a play that is directed and under the command of Sat or Lord. The ego and maya props give all the actors their specific roles.

Even the laws of karma and physics are there to keep the illusion running. 
It is such that we actors should realise where we came from and with who we were, before we merge back there for eternity. As once you do realise and become gurmukh, there is no other desire than to be back to the origin or mool.


It's been a very good and informative discussion for me.

Waheguru


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## Embers

Luckysingh said:


> ...
> 
> Even the laws of karma and physics are there to keep the illusion running.
> It is such that we actors should realise where we came from and with who we were, before we merge back there for eternity. As once you do realise and become gurmukh, there is no other desire than to be back to the origin or mool.
> 
> 
> It's been a very good and informative discussion for me.
> 
> Waheguru



Sat Siri Akaal LuckySingh Ji
This is good, I haven't considered Karma to be a part of the illusion explicitly but you are right. If we accept that Karma exists then the Gursikh is living out his past karma which is still yielding results. In other words he or she will still have a body which will need to be looked after until it dies naturally.

Whilst there is a body there is still interaction with the world, or the stage. To the onlooker, the Gursikh will continue to have a personality with preferences, choices etc, but in reality the Gursikh will know that it is karma ripening. This in turn adds to the illusion and, from the Manmukh view specifically, it will appear that there is no one who is different to themselves i.e. everyone will appear to be self-willed.

It is a kind of double bind, the poor manmukh sees only self-will. This helps us to understand one view on why some manmukh do awful things to innocent people, or get irritated and angry.

This thread has been very useful for me too and has answered some of my earlier questions. Thank you.


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## Taranjeet singh

The following shabad of Guru Nanak sahib expresses the helplessness of Human beings as He does everything. Man may bum around every where But only that thing will come to pass as is pleasing to Lord. What is pre-ordained comes to pass as His Command is Supreme.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
The created being acts as he is made to act; what can be said to him, O Siblings of Destiny?

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੋ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥੧॥
Whatever the Lord is to do, He is doing; what cleverness could be used to affect Him? ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਭਲਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ 
The Order of Your Will is so sweet, O Lord; this is pleasing to You.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O Nanak, he alone is honored with greatness, who is absorbed in the True Name. ||1||Pause||

ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
The deeds are done according to pre-ordained destiny; no one can turn back this Order.

ਜੈਸਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੈਸਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
As it is written, so it comes to pass; no one can erase it. ||2||

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਦਰਗਹ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾਉ ਪਵੈ ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ॥
He who talks on and on in the Lord's Court is known as a joker.

ਸਤਰੰਜ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਕੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਚੀ ਆਵੈ ਸਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
He is not successful in the game of chess, and his chessmen do not reach their goal. ||3||

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਪੜਿਆ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬੀਨਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੰਦਾ ॥
By himself, no one is literate, learned or wise; no one is ignorant or evil.

ਬੰਦੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹੀਐ ਬੰਦਾ ॥੪॥੨॥੩੬॥
 When, as a slave, one praises the Lord, only then is he known as a human being. ||4||2||36|


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## Embers

Thank you for the contribution, Taranjeet Singh Ji


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## Ishna

Bump.

As we discuss reincarnation and transmigration the concept of pre-determination is surfacing again and I thought we might try re-looking at this topic, if anyone is keen (not mentioning any names in particular Sherdil Ji... lol).


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## Sherdil

Ishna said:


> Bump.
> 
> As we discuss reincarnation and transmigration the concept of pre-determination is surfacing again and I thought we might try re-looking at this topic in depth, if anyone is keen (not mentioning any names in particular Sherdil Ji...  lol).



Oh wow! History repeats itself, doesn't it? 

Thank you for resurrecting this thread. I have enjoyed reading everyone's post.


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## Parma

Preordained and free will?
 Can you laugh when something is not funny? 
How can you fall out of love, without going through emotional changes with someone that you love?
Can you change your mind when a loved one dies from absolute sadness to absolute happiness, in an instant?
Free Will, how much do you have? How far can the mind go? Free to a degree conditioned to what you know, limited to what you understand, that is as free as we are. Emotional understanding beyond comprehension! It is a feeling that we understand, a feeling that we call free, to be able to express feelings freely to us feels like free will! When something is created it is caused and has an effect! What is creations cause, what is creations effect? Only the Guru Granth Sahib ji gives the guidance that makes sense to me! Waheguru the amazing teacher!!


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## angrisha

I a little confused with the question being asked as the thread as changed from page 1. (I did skip page 2 o be hoenst)

If the question is density and per-ordanided from what I understand of both neither one of thoese are set in stone. Just because something is set into motion doesnt mean its going to stay in the direct motion the whole time (I might have been watching to many super hero movies lately so probably am missing how people are defining destiny) 

To me there is no moment to momen planing of anyones life, we have free will but because we live in a very connected world the temporal order of the world pretty much compels you to be where your at an no when else. i.e 5 mins early or late your always exactly where you need to be. 

Hukam again to me is a general governance, its more than just simple destiny or pre-ordanided will. We have 100's of opportunities to fall in and obey hukam.... its not a demanding voice or a clear cut line to follow but to me it is that inner sipirt (anterjami) that you surrender to... you can also choose not to listen to it at all, but in my experience that way has alot more difficulties.


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## Luckysingh

Karma is not just a straightforward task, where everyone tries to justify a reason of who's responsible for what.


_*KARMA is from your lekha*, *which in turns molds and shapes your destiny.*_

However, this destiny is *ONLY* applicable if you maintain at the _SAME current state of consciousness._

_If you develop and evolve your soul/consciousness towards the higher states, then you, yourself change your own destiny !_

For eg.. Kauda raksh, if he carried on and refused to realise God or refused to let his soul evolve higher, then his actions and pas karmic imprints would have led him to the appropriate lower destination of destiny. HOWEVER, he made the effort to listen, learn and realise, that made him ask for forgiveness
Thus, he was freed from all his destined bounds and shackles, and became ONE with supreme God conscious.


In short, your own destiny will hold strong according to your karmic actions/imprints/influences at any given state of TIME !
But, you can move out of this destined graph line, if you *LEARN* to evolve.
*This is the REAL Learning of what SIKH actually means !!*

You have to try and understand the differences between *karma,destiny, lekha* and *free-will*.
ALL of these come under the bigger umbrella of *HUKAM.*
One can ONLY be in complete HUKAM when one learns to come out of theses shackles and weights of destiny and karma.
Gurbani tells you how to free yourself from these starting with naam simran.


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## Harry Haller

Luckysingh said:


> Karma is not just a straightforward task, where everyone tries to justify a reason of who's responsible for what.
> 
> 
> _*KARMA is from your lekha*, *which in turns molds and shapes your destiny.*_
> 
> However, this destiny is *ONLY* applicable if you maintain at the _SAME current state of consciousness._
> 
> _If you develop and evolve your soul/consciousness towards the higher states, then you, yourself change your own destiny !_
> 
> For eg.. Kauda raksh, if he carried on and refused to realise God or refused to let his soul evolve higher, then his actions and pas karmic imprints would have led him to the appropriate lower destination of destiny. HOWEVER, he made the effort to listen, learn and realise, that made him ask for forgiveness
> Thus, he was freed from all his destined bounds and shackles, and became ONE with supreme God conscious.
> 
> 
> In short, your own destiny will hold strong according to your karmic actions/imprints/influences at any given state of TIME !
> But, you can move out of this destined graph line, if you *LEARN* to evolve.
> *This is the REAL Learning of what SIKH actually means !!*
> 
> You have to try and understand the differences between *karma,destiny, lekha* and *free-will*.
> ALL of these come under the bigger umbrella of *HUKAM.*
> One can ONLY be in complete HUKAM when one learns to come out of theses shackles and weights of destiny and karma.
> Gurbani tells you how to free yourself from these starting with naam simran.



go for the audi Q7, lots of headroom


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## Luckysingh

harry haller said:


> go for the audi Q7, lots of headroom


 
No thanks, I am just going to have to stick with whatever motor is pre-ordained and destined along with what I deserve according to my written lekha.
And then whatever happens with whatever car I have, shall all be under his Hukam.
Hukam could be I get struck by lightning, have a critical crash, end up in coma for a month again, get stuck in the car wash in the middle of an earthquake, or even worse... run someone over.
It's ALL his hukam, played via the games and tactics of karma and lekha.
I'm in the game, but he runs the show and rolls the dice.

BTW- the previous post was not a 'know it all' attitude to anyone
It was trying to explain the thread of the title as I understand it. There were numerous posts going off tangent and going around in circles.
_But did they change anything ?_
_For that matter, did I change anything ?_


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## Harry Haller

Luckysingh said:


> No thanks, I am just going to have to stick with whatever motor is pre-ordained and destined along with what I deserve according to my written lekha.



what car do you drive? I have a 1999 E240 estate with every panel covered in rust, actually, I will post a photo. So can you divulge which car you are having to stick with that has been preordained according to your written lekha? and honesty please Luckyji, you are after all a Sikh!


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