# Existence Of Abrahamic God



## Ishna (Jul 15, 2011)

This recent thread got me thinking. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/34683-does-sikhism-confirm-existence-hindu-gods.html

1. Are YHVH (Jewish God), the Trinity (Christian God) and Allah (Muslim God-no prizes for guessing!) the same God? I've always thought so since they all share common history, mythology and trace their roots to Abraham.

2. If you subscribe to the idea that gods and goddesses like Shiva and Durga are (or have been) part of creation, do you think the Abrahamic God is on the same level as all other gods and goddesses?  Or do you think there is something special about this particular god?

Thanks
Ish


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 15, 2011)

With Waheguru's Grace, the Almighty, The One and Many...

Ishna ji realize that all Forms come from the Formless. In this sense, all these Gods can be called demi-Gods. They are not the complete story. Shiva, Rama, Hari, Krishna, Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, Allah. All these Gods that we conjure up, even Waheguru, are demi-gods (don't hit me yet). Because none of them are that One God. They point towards God. And because they do so, they *are* the One God, Waheguru. So in a sense, none of the Gods that any of us imagines is the real deal... and yet it *is* the real deal. Through those forms the One God is realized. This realization is infinite, never-ending realization. However, at any point if we stop and claim we have found God then realize that we only have a "demi-God" in our hands... (meditate on this)

There is an analogy with handicapped people and an elephant. We are all handicapped in a sense so this analogy works. So the handicapped people are all in a room with this elephant.

The deaf one listens to the elephant and says he is quiet. The blind one sees the elephant and says there is nothing there. The mute one talks to the elephant and says there is no response... wait... 

That's not the analogy.  I had it backwards.

Ok *takes a big breath* handicapped and the elephant in the room. 

They are all just blind now. 

One feels the elephant's tail and says I have got a tail. Another feels the elephant's trunk and says I feel a trunk. Another feels the elephant's underside and says "I know it wasn't raining but if it rains, I am good to go guys." Another finds himself on top of the elephant and says what a bigas* m*********er! wait...

wait!

No no no 

That doesn't seem right.

Ishna ji, you and I can see! So what is the need for analogies with handicapped people?

We can both see. That's how we made it to the forum. So now we *know* that we can see. 

Right? Yes of course.

Ok I grab the trunk and say it's a trunk. You grab the tail and say that you have his tail...

Hold on... that can't be right either.

How did this elephant get through the door? 

Ok forget the elephant, there was a snake in the room... 


and everyone left the room. 

ਟੋਡੀ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਭਗਤਾਂ  ਕੀ
टोडी बाणी भगतां की
Todī baṇī bẖagṯāŉ kī
Todee, The Word Of The Devotees:
ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਕੋਈ  ਬੋਲੈ  ਨਿਰਵਾ  ਕੋਈ  ਬੋਲੈ  ਦੂਰਿ  ॥
कोई बोलै निरवा कोई बोलै दूरि ॥
Ko▫ī bolai nirvā ko▫ī bolai ḏūr.
Some say that He is near, and others say that He is far away.
ਜਲ  ਕੀ  ਮਾਛੁਲੀ  ਚਰੈ  ਖਜੂਰਿ  ॥੧॥
जल की माछुली चरै खजूरि ॥१॥
Jal kī mācẖẖulī cẖarai kẖajūr. ||1||
We might just as well say that the fish climbs out of the water and up the tree. ||1||
ਕਾਂਇ  ਰੇ  ਬਕਬਾਦੁ  ਲਾਇਓ  ॥
कांइ रे बकबादु लाइओ ॥
Kāŉ▫e re bakbāḏ lā▫i▫o.
Why do you speak such nonsense?
ਜਿਨਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਇਓ  ਤਿਨਹਿ  ਛਪਾਇਓ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||
ਪੰਡਿਤੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਕੈ  ਬੇਦੁ  ਬਖਾਨੈ  ॥
पंडितु होइ कै बेदु बखानै ॥
Pandiṯ ho▫e kai beḏ bakẖānai.
Those who become Pandits, religious scholars, recite the Vedas,
ਮੂਰਖੁ  ਨਾਮਦੇਉ  ਰਾਮਹਿ  ਜਾਨੈ  ॥੨॥੧॥
मूरखु नामदेउ रामहि जानै ॥२॥१॥
Mūrakẖ nāmḏe▫o rāmėh jānai. ||2||1||
but foolish Naam Dayv knows only the Lord. ||2||1||

(Ok now hit me. Go on, just beat me up for not listening to Bhagat Namdev ji.)


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 15, 2011)

WOW...Ishna and myslef just thanked Bhagat ji simultaneously !! Gods work ha ha


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## Ishna (Jul 15, 2011)

Lol !! Great post Bhagat bhaji, thanks for taking the time! It wasn't entirely what I wanted to hear (the part about Waheguru, just me looking for the easy way out) but you hit the nail on the head. This is the second time you've managed to point out what I know from Gurbani but haven't applied to my everyday mind. Like when I've read thr gurbani I understand but it doesn't stay in my mind, and when someone (ie you) point it out it's like du'h, I already knew that! *facepalm*


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## Annie (Jul 15, 2011)

Ishna ji,

I don't know much about Islam so I can't comment on that, other than the fact that Muslims sometimes call Jews and Christians "people of the Book" which makes me think they identify with them in some way.

As for Christianity and Judaism, the main holy book of the Jews (the Torah) is the same as the first five chapters of the Christian holy book (the Bible). Yes, the two deities are one and the same. Both religions understand it in similar but not completely identical ways.

Christians and Jews believe that their deity is the creator of everything, not just a part of nature. They do not believe in the existence of demi-gods.

My personal opinion, if all these religions worship the one creator of the universe, then by definition that can only be one entity - the creator of the universe is the creator of the universe, no matter what name you wish to call it.

Adding to Bhagat Singh's analogy, God is like a vast stained glass window, so big that a person can only see one little part of it at a time. One group might say the window is blue. Another group might say it is red or yellow or green... but it is all part of the same window.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 15, 2011)

Ishnabhenji, 


when I read the bible many many years ago, I was struck by how angry god is. The abrahamic god seems to be at odds with the creator that we call god. I personally have never believed that all religions end up at the same place. And even if they did, I would want to learn through understanding and love, not fear. My father used to say to me, he never understood the term god-fearing, as he wanted to love god, not fear him. 

A lot of religions place emphasis on doing things without question, with the consequences of not doing, being retribution, and to be in fear of that, as a way of life. 

I cannot agree with anything other than a relationship with the creator based on love, respect and gratitude. The creator I know is a patient father, happy to give advice, but equally happy for his children to find their own way, he never gets angry,  and he never burns bridges.

The creator I believe in, has risen above a lot of the personality traits that the abrahamic god seems to have, I find the abrahamic god quite 'human' in terms of feelings and actions, but thats just me , and I am always happy to be corrected swordfight


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 15, 2011)

If we can understand the CREATOR as envisaged in Gurbani then we can have better 
views for God and Goddesses.
We should carefully give a deep thinking to the aspect of CREATOR in Gurbani. We can find that the CREATOR in Gurbani is not FORMLESS as we take it. The CREATOR in Gurbani has a FORM which is invisible and specific.
The above fact of Gurbani is one of the reasons to understand that There is no concept of GOD in Gurbani.{There are other reasons too}
Thus from Gurbani we understand that the whole Universe is Creation from a CREATOR of definite FORM. 
We can discuss this as we proceed ahead.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 15, 2011)

Harry ji, 
Meditate on your words of wisdom for some time, there is much more there that you are missing out on.  Do this now before continuing. Just go off into another room and contemplate your own words.

When you come back. Wait you have not left. GO NOW

Some say he is loving. Some say he gets angry.
Some say he is a creator. Some say he is a destroyer.
Some say he is. Some say he is not.
Some say he is Formless. Some say he is a Form but invisible and specific.

Happy meditating.:sippingcoffeemunda:

...

Keep meditating...



> The creator I know is a patient father, happy to give advice, but  equally happy for his children to find their own way, he never gets  angry,  and he never burns bridges.


You are absolutely right. The Abrahamic God sounds too human to be true. On the other hand, what you say does not sound like a human at all. Father? what is a father? 

I think I should just leave the forum or I am going to have way too many people hitting me. lol


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## aristotle (Jul 15, 2011)

The Abrahamic God, (though common to Muslim, Christians, Jews i.e. Abrahamic religions) is metaphysically different in descriptions in each of them.
-In Jewish faith, the God is like a mighty Lord sitting on the heavenly throne seven layers above the living space. The fundamental quality of the Jewish God (YHWH or Yahweh) is his(?) hostility towards the Gentiles(non jews) and the recognition of Jews as the chosen race(Even up to the extent when the Jews massacre the Gentiles, the YHWH doesn't seem to mind at all!), that's why every Prophet (even Jesus!) came from this race. The only way the Gentiles can be appealing to the Lord is by submission to the Jews.

-In Christianity the same God(YHWH) is expanded to form a Trinity. He too, considers Jews as his chosen race and they automatically enter the heaven on the judement day though the Gentiles too can enter the heaven after being baptised in the name of Jesus who forms a part of the Trinity and is said to have paid the ransom for our sins in advance. The God, in Christianity is much more calm and good tempered and punishes less often, even allows the Antichrist to kill Christians during the Tribulation (period before the judgment, is said to be yet to come) and keeps the punishment part suspended till the judgment day.

-In Islam, The concept of YHWH is totally rejected and replaced by Allah. A lofty and mighty, bad tempered God, who punishes the qaafirs(non Muslims, literally False men), at even the slightest provocation. He sends earthquakes and calamities on the Earth because he is angry with the residents of the Earth on not accepting Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad. Considers only Muslims as men and the rest as lower animals, not even worthy of praying before him.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 16, 2011)

Bhgat Singh Ji,
Some may say Creator is FORMless but we should understand what are the messages of GuRU from Gurbani regarding the form of Creator.

We can verify that the CREATOR in Gurbani is  "GuR JOTi"  refered as GuRU-GuR and to be known as EKANKAARu.

There are several quotes in Gurbani which tell about this FORM of CREATOR.In Gurbani the FORM of CREATOR is also being refered as SAT SAROOP.

So Dear Bhagat Singh singh ji Some may say so much but What our GuRU says that should be important for us.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Randip Singh (Jul 16, 2011)

I subscribe to the concept of Onkaar, that does not mean God as  the word God is in itself is an Abrahamic concept. 

Onkaar meaning Constant. We say Ek Onkaar i.e. One constant , Sat Naam i.e. Truth is its name.

There is but one constant, truth is its name!!


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 16, 2011)

Prakash Singh ji,

You are absolutely right. 

Guru's message is very important for us. We should meditate on the words of Gurbani, on his words.

Words can only describe a form. As they themselves are a form.

You say the words _sat saroop_, _ek ongkar, gur jot, _gur are being used. Also the words _ram, hari, vishnu, parbrahm, parm atma, allah, khuda, kareem, raheem_ ... in fact, every word in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is being used. (Meditate)

What are they all referring to? That can only be known through meditation, through dwelling on the words, reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, singing it, repeating it, memorizing it, analyzing it etc whatever else you can think of. Once _that_ is known, _that_... some call it _form_ and some _formless_. Some call it with the words above, and some with the words that will arrive below.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 16, 2011)

It would be very intersting to understand the reference meanings of the following two words in Gurbaani
1.......The word EKANKAARu

2.......The word OANKAARu

We can find both words have different meanings.
In Gurbani we do not find the word OANKAARu being refered as CREATOR but definitely you can see that it EKANKAARu{GuR JOti} being refered as CREATOR.
It is thus clear that the word OANKAARu is not the reference for GuR JOTi so it should not be taken as CREATOR.

You are right that all the words |Except the word Vishanu ....There is no word like Param atma in SGGS }refer to CREATOR only.So it is utmost important to understand the complete knowledge}FORM as well as its MOORATi from SGGS .

You will appreciate that the knowledge of CREATOR by GURU in SGGs is perfect and compete so we should first grasp this.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Annie (Jul 16, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I find the abrahamic god quite 'human' in terms of feelings and actions, but thats just me , and I am always happy to be corrected swordfight


I agree with you, Harry ji. I'm actually in the middle of re-reading the Bible/Torah right now. I'm just shocked at how violent and petty the Abrahamic God seems to be. It really makes me wonder.

There are several layers of understanding to the Bible and Torah. On one end of the spectrum, rules and consequences are what is taught to the people who can't or don't want to learn more. I think the religious authority figures, especially the Christian ones, are quite guilty of using the holy books to control the ignorant masses.

On the other end of the spectrum of understanding is mysticism - called Kabballah in Judaism. It takes the holy books much less literally and looks for deeper or hidden meanings. In that school of thought, the Abrahamic God is both masculine and feminine, and has a more complex and benevolent personality. In fact, it is much less human. One really has to be careful with mysticism though because for every person who is on the right path, there are a hundred crazies and manipulators.

In the end, we are all (at least the people who are serious about religion) just doing our best to understand the incomprehensible, and trying to do the right thing.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2011)

Annieji, 

Herman Hesse, the writer of the book steppenwolf, from which I took my name here, wrote that an artist is someone of enormous creativity that is able to use that gift to create something magical, music, paintings, etc.He describes a mystic as the same, but without the ability to translate that gift. I am not sure how that helps in understanding mysticism!

I would like to think, and I may be wrong, that incomprehensible, is fully comprehensible, provided we allow ourselves to be guided by the creator, as outlined in the SGGS. 

I have been trying to do the right thing all my life, its amazing how many times you think you are doing the right thing, even by other people, and in fact you are doing the wrong thing, what appears to be the right thing from one perspective can look completely wrong in a different light. To that end, I hope to fine tune my ability to see the creators perspective, which will hopefully enable me to see where the light shines, and what is illuminated, and what is in darkness

who said doing the right thing was easy !


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 16, 2011)

Annie ji, what a coincidence. I am also in the process of reading the Bible. 

... maybe not a coincidence then. Since I'm also trying to read (at turtle's pace): the Quran, Bhagwad Gita, Tao Te Ching, Yoga Sutra of Patanjali along with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, of course.



> I'm just shocked at how violent and petty the Abrahamic God seems to be. It really makes me wonder.


Yes, and what stuck out to me was:
In Genesis, God creates everything then says "it is good".
God created man in his own [rather violent] image.

Clearly a contradiction. Man is both good and violent?


My enlightened friend Narayanjot Kaur ji (she's on this forum) once made  a remark somewhat akin to "Life is about contradictions" I think she  also said we should learn to accept and live with these contradictions.  Ever since, this has been ringing in my ears. Anywhere I am, in any  situation, in a thread, in a park, looking at nature, reading spiritual  texts...

I find contradictions at the core of our world, and so all religions. The Tao Te Ching and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes especially good use of contradictions in many places. God-willing I will someday post stuff from Tao Te Ching. From Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I presented a shabad by Bhagat Namdev ji in the beginning of the thread. After I read it and understood it, I fell in love with this shabad. The use of contradiction to highlight the Eternal Truth in his shabad is done very creatively. I had a good laugh after I read it and realized what was going on... then laughed some more.

Pretty deep stuff, all of it.



> In the end, we are all (at least the people who are serious about  religion) just doing our best to understand the incomprehensible, and  trying to do the right thing.


Could not have said it better. I would add even those who aren't serious about religion are doing the same.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 16, 2011)

I feel we have different understanding about the meanings of the words
NIRANKAAR and the word NIRAAKAAR.

Correct understanding of the meaning of composite words can be derived by proper Disection of the word. This disection should be done as per rules of disection of the words.
Considering the rule of disection of some of the words we can get the clue for its correct meaning.For example 

The WORD NIRANJAN....tobe disected as NIR plus ANJAN means free from ANJAN

THE word NIRANKAAR....to be disected as NIR plus OANKAAR Means free from OANKAAR

The word NIRAAKAAR,,,to be disected as NIR plus AAKAAR means free from AAKAAR

We can find in Gurbani that the word NIAKAAR is always reference for EKANKAAR
whereas the word NRAAKAAR is reference for OANKAAR.

This consideration should make us clear that 
It is OANKAAR which is SAAKAAR or NRAAKAAR but EKANKAAR is always NIRANKAAR.

These are only personal views for considetration although the views are based on certain facts only.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 16, 2011)

Prakash ji and the relationship between Nirgun Niraakar and Nirankar is?

Also the relatioship between Oankar Saakar and Sargun is?


What is the relationship between those two sets? They appear to be opposite forces.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 16, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,
We can find that the words SARGUN and NIRGUN have been used for NIRANKAAR only.
I have yet to see the use of words SARGUN and NIRGUN  being used for OANKAAR.
If you have any quote from Gurbani for this pl post this for me.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 16, 2011)

Prakash Singh ji,

My knowledge of Gurbani is not as great as yours. But what I do know is that Gurbani starts off from Ek Onkar then goes onto elaborate on Ek Onkar.

Everything in Gurbani is talking about Onkar: Every word, every sentence, every shabad, every bani, every author...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 17, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,
In the present era of Computor Age No one can have knowledge more than anyone else..So my knowledge is the same as yours.We may differ in our levels of acceptance  of the knowledge.
I have accepted what I get from within SGGS.If any one accepts what is not in SGGS then it is his choice only.
You feed the words IK ONKAAR in computor you will not get this in SGGS .But if you feed  IK EKANKAAR you must get this in SGGS .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 17, 2011)

ਗਉੜੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥
गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
ਸੰਤ  ਕੀ  ਧੂਰਿ  ਮਿਟੇ  ਅਘ  ਕੋਟ  ॥
संत की धूरि मिटे अघ कोट ॥
Sanṯ kī ḏẖūr mite agẖ kot.
Millions of sins are wiped away by the dust of the feet of the Saints.
ਸੰਤ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ਜਨਮ  ਮਰਣ  ਤੇ  ਛੋਟ  ॥੧॥
संत प्रसादि जनम मरण ते छोट ॥१॥
Sanṯ parsāḏ janam maraṇ ṯe cẖẖot. ||1||
By the Grace of the Saints, one is released from birth and death. ||1||
ਸੰਤ  ਕਾ  ਦਰਸੁ  ਪੂਰਨ  ਇਸਨਾਨੁ  ॥
संत का दरसु पूरन इसनानु ॥
Sanṯ kā ḏaras pūran isnān.
The Blessed Vision of the Saints is the perfect cleansing bath.
ਸੰਤ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਤੇ  ਜਪੀਐ  ਨਾਮੁ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
संत क्रिपा ते जपीऐ नामु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sanṯ kirpā ṯe japī▫ai nām. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By the Grace of the Saints, one comes to chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||
ਸੰਤ  ਕੈ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਮਿਟਿਆ  ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ  ॥
संत कै संगि मिटिआ अहंकारु ॥
Sanṯ kai sang miti▫ā ahaŉkār.
In the Society of the Saints, egotism is shed,
ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ  ਆਵੈ  ਸਭੁ  *ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ*  ॥੨॥
द्रिसटि आवै सभु *एकंकारु* ॥२॥
Ḏarisat āvai sabẖ *ekankār*. ||2||
and the *One Lord* is seen everywhere. ||2||
ਸੰਤ  ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ  ਆਏ  ਵਸਿ  ਪੰਚਾ  ॥
संत सुप्रसंन आए वसि पंचा ॥
Sanṯ suparsan ā▫e vas pancẖā.
By the pleasure of the Saints, the five passions are overpowered,
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਰਿਦੈ  ਲੈ  ਸੰਚਾ  ॥੩॥
अम्रितु नामु रिदै लै संचा ॥३॥
Amriṯ nām riḏai lai sancẖā. ||3||
and the heart is irrigated with the Ambrosial Naam. ||3||
ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਜਾ  ਕਾ  ਪੂਰਾ  ਕਰਮ  ॥
कहु नानक जा का पूरा करम ॥
Kaho Nānak jā kā pūrā karam.
Says Nanak, one whose karma is perfect,
ਤਿਸੁ  ਭੇਟੇ  ਸਾਧੂ  ਕੇ  ਚਰਨ  ॥੪॥੪੬॥੧੧੫॥
तिसु भेटे साधू के चरन ॥४॥४६॥११५॥
Ŧis bẖete sāḏẖū ke cẖaran. ||4||46||115||
touches the feet of the Holy. ||4||46||115||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 17, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Many Many ...............Thanks

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 17, 2011)

icecreammunda

Thank you Prakash ji for making me read through many shabads with Ekankar. It was awesome.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 17, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,
The real meaning of this word EKANKAARu is still more awesome.This wod does mean ONE LORD/GOD as we think.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 17, 2011)

Indeed!

Shinzen Young (an enlightened Zen Buddhist) - (paraphrasing him) If he had a choice between:
 one day with knowing what he knows (after which he was perhaps killed) 

and 

a whole lifetime with no chance of knowing what he knows

He would choose that one day. This is how awesome it is.

Cheers


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2011)

Prakashji

you mentioned earlier that there is no concept of god in gurbani, could you expand on that

thank you


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 17, 2011)

Harry Hallar Ji,

We refer GOD as CREATOR. We also refer GOD as being FORMLESS.That means we refer CREATOR as FORMLESS.
Whereas in Gurbani the CREATOR is being refered as having FORM.
In view of above considerations where we can find the concept of GOD in Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 18, 2011)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,

There are several reasons to indicate as to why the word GOD is not an appropriate for Use in Gurbani reference.These are

1......The word GOD itself is not a content of Gurbani vocabulary.Since Bani is complete by itself it does not require the use of any extra word for its interpretation.
2......The grammer of the word GOD does not meet grammatical requirement of Gurbani words.The word GOD is gramamtically SINGULAR..NOUN...MASCULINEGENDER.
The word GOD is used as reference for the CREATOR.
Since the CREATOR in Gurbani is already being refered as GuR which is PLURAL.
3......In Gurbani the CREATOR is a pair of two opposite characters whereas the word GOD being Singular can not be used to represent a pair.

There are 1008 Noun words in our literature that refer to CREATOR.In Gurbani only nearly 300 find the use .All others can also be used but it is important to use any extra word as per pattern of Gurbani grammer otherwise its use would result in incorrect interpretation of Gurbani.
I hope I have expanded the reason you may be looking for.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ishna (Jul 18, 2011)

Prakash ji

I thought the plural form was used in Punjabi language to show respect to someone, in this case the Creator?

Also, can you please expand on your comment that the Creator in Gurbani (I'm assuming you are referring to what we might call Waheguru) is a pair of opposite characters?

My understanding of Sikhi so far has been strict monotheism and a quest to eliminate duality and separation from the mind.

Are you saying the two opposite characters are FORM and FORMLESS?

Thanks
Ishna :interestedkudi:


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2011)

Ishna ji

A very incisive question.  welcomekaur The first time I read I was befuddled and did not know what to say. 



> Also, can you please expand on your comment that the Creator in Gurbani (I'm assuming you are referring to what we might call Waheguru) is a pair of opposite characters?




Can there be more than one ikonkaar?  Did not know how to put my thoughts into words.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 19, 2011)

ISHANA Ji,

The answer you are looking for lies in the understanding of the intrisic meanings of the words GuRU -GuRu and GuR.Try to know the grammer of these words and establish the interrelationship of these three words. 
Once you can do this you are going to get the answer to all your questions.
I can give you a Hint that the Word GuRu is Single word but this is also written as GuRu.GuRu .These two words together represent a Single word GuRU.
This understanding of the word GuRU as GuRu.GuRu would give you the required answer.

Hint....The word GuRU  the  Capital  U is for Dulakad Matra under the letter R of the 
          word GuR

         The word GuRu the small  u is for Aukad Matra under the letter R of the word 
          GuR
Always refer to Gurmukhi script to verify the above pattern of words.

The concept of Gurbani about Creator is certainly of Monothiest as the CREATOR is being represented by a SINGLE Word GuR which is Plural means this word represents infinite as ONE.

By opposite character I mean one chacter represents POSITIVE and Masculine aspect of the FORM and second character represents NEGATIVE and Feminine aspect of the same FORM.

I hope this may help you to get answer to your questions.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2011)

Prakash.S. Baggu ji

I do not speak for Ishna ji, however, your answer befuddles me, especially this part. 





> By opposite character I mean one chacter represents POSITIVE and Masculine aspect of the FORM and second character represents NEGATIVE and Feminine aspect of the same FORM.
> 
> I hope this may help you to get answer to your questions.



It does not help. I am aware that in Islam it is believed that Allah has a hidden feminine nature. Where in SGGS does this notion emerge for Akaal?  Unless you have a secret, hidden key to understanding, the face value of your comment almost contradicts SGGS.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 19, 2011)

Let us give a thought to some of the quotes from Gurbani as

1.......Tum Mat Pita Hum  Barak Tere

2......HARi Ji Mata,HARi Ji Pita HAR Ji Pratipalak

3.....MeRa Mat Pita HARi Raaiyaa

We can see that the use of words Mata and PITA in Gurbani and these words are the references for some Masculine and Fiminie Character of the CREATOR.
Is it not So.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 19, 2011)

The creator is infinite

infinite-a number that has an infinite, uncountable numerical value

by that, surely we can take what Prakashji has stated as being correct, the creator is mother, father, lover, wife, husband, maybe the dual nature spoken of could be better defined as infinite nature?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 19, 2011)

Thank you  HARRY HALLER ji 

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 19, 2011)

The fingers which wrote this, they dance on the keyboard... to the beat of the mind-made words or to the clicks of the pressed keys? Meditate on this.

One is the trunk of the elephant and the other it's tail. How can the elephant be seen if you stick to one (most likely your own) perspective?


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## Ishna (Jul 19, 2011)

Harry ji, I can understand your comment more than I can understand Prakash ji's comment regarding mother and father.

Prakash ji:  thanks for expanding on the GuRu GURU GuR stuff and I'm still learning about Punjabi grammar particularly as it applies in SGGS.



> By opposite character I mean one chacter represents POSITIVE and Masculine aspect of the FORM and second character represents NEGATIVE and Feminine aspect of the same FORM.



I can't say I'm comprehending the 'Creator as FORM' posts -- I just don't understand them at this point in time.  However, the positive masuline / negative feminine is something I'm very familiar with from my Neopagan days.

Part of what drew me to Sikhi in the first place is the concept of One Universal Creative Force.  Period.  I don't see the need to analyse and divide it into pieces, especially not male/female as that is such a human-specific mode of interpretation.  An androgenous snail probably doesn't think the creative force is made up of the male/female duality.

My interpretation has been that the Creator in Sikhi is yet still above the positive/negative creative process.  The Creator created the creative process -- if that involves positive/negative polarity, that's great, but what consequence is it to me?

I don't think Sikhi is designed to be complicated.  Like Bhagat ji said recently, it's pointing out the obvious.  If we could just let go of the human need to disect and over-analyse we could instead sit back and enjoy the Truth just as it is.  This could be just be my lack of understanding, but it's what I feel and understand at this particular point on my path.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 19, 2011)

ISHNA Ji,
I appreciate the intrisic sense of your views and your being candid on the subject.
You seem to have the potential of acquiring Holistic knowledge of Gurbani.Having information only does not constitute Knowledge.One is required to peep deep into 
the authenticity of informative knowledge and this can be provided by GuRU only.
I wish May HARi ji be your guide.
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 19, 2011)

Ishna Bhenji, 

You are an inspiration to us all!

I cannot speak for Prakashji, but since arriving on this forum, it seems clear that every sikh has his/her own way of relating to the creator. I see him in my wife, stepson, mother, father, dogs, and the creator keeps popping up in more and more places, I suppose ultimately I will see the creator in everything. The last time we walked the dogs, my wife commented on how beautiful dog dirt was. I expected some sort of explanation, so i remained quiet, to us, its just dog dirt, but inside that dog dirt, is a whole world full of organisms and micro organisms, all playing their role in life, if you could examine that order in a microscope, it would look beautiful, she said, 

So, if one can see god in dog dirt, and if god is in everything, both good and evil, then god is also in the negative and the positive. 

You are correct, the creator is a single universal force, it just happens to be everywhere at the same time!

I think we as human beings find it hardest to define our own interpretation of the creator in words, which is where these observations can cause confusion. I personally think as long as your interpretation of the creator has its definitions in the SGGS, you cannot go far wrong, but I also think each of us takes a different way to feel the creator and what it means to us, although, all within the boundaries of sikh thinking.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 19, 2011)

We should have a very clear concept regarding the meaning of the reference of DUALITY
In Gurbani the reference is for the DUALITY of Thoughts.This is related to living with DUAL THOUGHTS Of CREATOR. 
Nowhere Gurbani negates the Dual Character of SINGLE CREATOR.
Let us understand what actually  Duality of thoughts is.?

Living with concept of GuRU and GOD is Duality of thoughts Our thought is required to
be the word GuRU only .How one can think of GuRU {WITHFORM}and GOD{WithoutFORM} together.

Like thinking of any figure other than EKANKAAR is Duality as per Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2011)

parkash.s.bagga ji

Thanks for adding your clarification.



> Let us give a thought to some of the quotes from Gurbani as
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No it is not so. Because in the shabad with the memorable words Tu meera pita, Tu meera mata, on Ang 103, Guru says:

ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤਾ ॥ 
तूं मेरा पिता तूंहै मेरा माता ॥ 
Ŧūŉ merā piṯā ṯūŉhai merā māṯā. 
You are my Father, and You are my Mother. 

But Guruji also says in the next line, 



> ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਭ੍ਰਾਤਾ ॥
> तूं मेरा बंधपु तूं मेरा भ्राता ॥
> Ŧūŉ merā banḏẖap ṯūŉ merā bẖarāṯā.
> You are my Relative, and You are my Brother.
> ...



You left a lot out. And by your logic, as below: 


> 3......In Gurbani the CREATOR is a pair of two opposite characters whereas the word GOD being Singular can not be used to represent a pair.



given the shabad on Ang 45,  Akaal has a 5 in one nature which is starting to sound very Vedantic to me. But that is what happens when tuks are quoted out of context of a whole shabad. On Ang 131, Guruji likens Akaal to a mountain, which is true. 

Alas you did not post the full shabad. Please do so in the future. 

But to make a stronger point, let's look at a similar and related shabad where the point is made clear by Guruji. Akaal does not have 2 parts or 3 parts or 5 parts or 1000 parts, but rather There is only One. When we say He is pura/poora/puraan/pooran we mean not only perfect, but perfect in the sense of whole, complete, unbroken. There is no breakout into parts. Tuks that seem relevant to this discussion are in bold font. 




> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
> Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
> 
> ...



Everything is contained in *ONE.*


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 19, 2011)

Prakash ji, Spnadmin ji, Harry ji, and Ishna ji.

I think together you have all laid out the Oneness of Multiplicity. He is not only the mother, father, guru, and other associations. But also One. It is in the Nature of one to appear as separate. And it's in the nature of the separate to appear as one. 

Now a physical example of what this points to cannot be given in the language of One. We use the language of Multiplicity to provide examples. 

I am meditating on Harry ji's comment about Infinite nature of One. (Harry ji, It could also be stated that the dual nature is contained within the infinite nature and the infinite nature is contained within the one and the dual.)

Like how a flame dances through many appearances.
Like how the ocean throws wave after wave.
Like how one member writes so many posts.
The one forum contains all those members.
The one earth is a host for such forums.
The one universe churns up such earths.
Even the universe has been said to arise from a single point.
Multiplicity has then essentially arisen from One.
Both are true, and both are to be meditatd upon.

Can one reject the dual nature? Can one reject the many dances, waves, members, posts?
Similarly, one cannot reject the flame that dances, the ocean that waves, the member that posts.

Acceptance is key.

Realize that the play of One and Many is what we see. When we give attention to this play. Then we experience "Sab gobind hai sab gobind hai gobind bin nahi koi" and we further realize: "Some call him Ram, Some call him Khuda"


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## Ishna (Jul 20, 2011)

Some call him Ram, some call him Khuda...  Which brings up back to the initial thread topic I guess...

But aren't they speaking only of a PART?  Ram, Khuda-- they do not encapsulate the all-encompassing and infinite nature of the creative force...  Can we humans ever relate to the ONE?  By looking at any created God by any name, we're pointing at the trunk of the elephant and saying "look!  there is the infinite creator!".

Even when we speak of Waheguru, someone said recently you're still only able to encapsulate a little bit...

How can we possibly reflect on the ONE when it can't be seen for the MANY?

ie. The creative force is the forest but all we can see are the trees!

Is it possible?  Is the way to do it just to give up trying?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2011)

Bhenji, 

I think with greater knowledge comes greater understanding. As long as you keep asking the questions, as do we all, at some point some conception of this huge infinite creative force that resides in everything will come to you and it will sit with you comfortably for the rest of your life as a foundation to base your ultimate understanding on. I envy you, you have the spirit, determination and the questions to see this through, however, when you find it, it will be your individual conception that will be personal to you, just like Prakashji's conception may be individual to him, I know how hard it is to express something like this in words, which is why we are all having so much difficulty!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 20, 2011)

HARRY HALLER ji,
You have given a wonderful description about the way any ones conception can become part of his  life long thinking.This is exactly so.
I remember how a single line of grammer understanding mentioned in grammer book of Prof Sahb Singh ji drmatically  changed my overall view of Gurbani understanding.I just caught that overlooked line and personaaly verified from within SGGS  and the outcome is most surprising.
Therfore understanding is a continuous process .What you think right today may prove to be wrong at other point of time or vise versa.But a real Holisitic knowledge comes from the understandind provided by GuRU .So we should keep deliberating on the way GuRU wants us  to understand.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 20, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,
You have rightly understood the concept of ONE.I greatly appreciate the way you have enunciated the basic essence of the whole of Gurbani understanding.You are so close to the Basic concept of Gurbani.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2011)

> The creative force is the forest but all we can see are the trees


Lol what do you mean* all *you can see are the trees? What is a forest if not trees?

What is Waheguru if not this life, this moment... the screen which you are staring at?

This is why I used the word Obvious. *facepalm* is good analogy for enlightenment. Now you just stated the obvious in your post but it may not have appeared to be obvious to you.

As soon as the obvious is put into words, it ceases to be obvious. That is, the words may be obvious to some and not so obvious for others. But what is obvious to some and not obvious to others is there, is Waheguru. But when you try and describe it, again it is obvious to some and not obvious to others. "That's it!" Realize that Waheguru must be seen outside the realm of words, if he is not already being seen in the words. 

I think this would be a good time to quote Tao Te Ching. Seeing it from another language might help you out.



> *1*
> 
> *The tao that can be told
> is not the eternal Tao
> ...


Read further: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html#20
I just bolded some stuff, etc but each line should be meditated upon. 

Take several minutes to just dwell on those words.
.
.
.

I warn you to not turn the above into a belief. Realize that most of us live _in_ beliefs... not _with_ them. This is a dead end. 

One needs to step out of beliefs, which are essentially thoughts you take to be true (how can Truth be realize if you take thoughts to be Truth?). One does initially starts from a particular set of beliefs. These must be transcended and seen to be only one small part of Waheguru. This is why I quoted another spiritual text.

You are right. At any given time you are only seeing one small part of Waheguru. Do you realize this when you are in a situation where you are in a fight with someone? Perhaps they said something offensive to you.

Do you realize that when you are with your parents and they keep lecturing about the obvious stuff you know about? Are you annoyed at that or seeing it as part of Waheguru's Hukam? If you are already annoyed... are you no seeing your own annoyed-ness as Hukam?

Bottomline: Are you observing and then accepting the Hukam as it arises?

It's not a question of belief. It's about being ready to live in it.

Recall Pauri One from Jap ji Sahib. Guru Nanak says that by accepting and dwelling in the Hukam, the Truth is realized. 



> Your hunger will not be satisfied no matter how much you feed it.
> Your intelligence (thoughts, analysis, etc) will not help you in the end.
> How can this illusion be torn apart and the truth be realized?
> Nanak says truth is realized when one lives in harmony with the Hukam. (japji sahib)


Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/36035-why-so-much-talk-about-enemies-3.html#post148670


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## Ishna (Jul 20, 2011)

Fantastic post Bhagat bhaji, thank you. I am fond of the small sections of Tao Te Ching I've read for their striking similarity to Gurbani (a clear trunk/tail example). In fact I was given a copy last Christmas-I should try reading it more.

The "can't see the forest for the trees" comment is a common saying where I live which means you're looking too close at something and can't get the bigger picture. The trees all together make up the forest but you just look and see each tree by itself and so can't see that put together, seen in their entirety, they make a forest.

I have enjoyed this thread and will be reading it for a while! Thank you everyone for your thoughts!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 20, 2011)

To understand How that ONE is a pair this would require the understanding of Gurbani in terms of waves of Divine word GuRU,
Unless we rcognise the WAVE STRUCTURE of Gurbani it is not possible to grasp the concept of ONE being refered as Pair.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga ji

You are far adrift by at least 3 posts from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 21, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji
> 
> You are far adrift by at least 3 posts from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


spnadmin ji, we all get trapped sometimes.  I am sure I have done that with Babey/Sant stuff.

It feels like a paddle boat with rudder stuck.  One keeps going in circles whereas with same effort you could understand so much more.  One might as well be in a backyard pool versus the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ocean of wisdom.  Same for understanding Gurbani.  You get stuck (say Gur Guru, waves, etc.), you ain't coming unstuck and learn anything further unless you get your rudder unstuck.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written to make spiritually accessible to the masses, and to rid us of enslavement to sants and babbeys, who were needed to bridge the gap between the abstractions of the vedas and the ignorant fools who wished salvation. In other words, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was compiled to make spirituality accessible. And I am still wondering why the impulse persists to make its study a murky proposition at best.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 21, 2011)

spnadmin ji, it is Business opportunities (for Babeys/Sants to live the styles of kings and queens like Brahmins used to do in large numbers and many still do) to make tons of money by claiming enlightenment (Sants/Babeys, etc.) and declaring darkness in masses.   There is much information and wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that there is no limit on how many people can take even small pieces of wisdom/concepts and use such for exploitation of the gullible or vulnerable.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 21, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji,
I like what all you say  because I understand the limitations of everyone  sharing the views.You always have exclusive right to reject anything you want to.
But I know What I am saying.Nothing is in the air.At this time perhaps only GuRU knows.

I am greatly thankful  to your suggestions all the times I have been receiving from you tme to time.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 21, 2011)

Ishna said:


> This recent thread got me thinking. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/34683-does-sikhism-confirm-existence-hindu-gods.html
> 
> 1. Are YHVH (Jewish God), the Trinity (Christian God) and Allah (Muslim God-no prizes for guessing!) the same God? I've always thought so since they all share common history, mythology and trace their roots to Abraham.
> 
> ...


Ishnaji it is very interesting to note that Sikhism does not believe in a personal God which some may have claimed or been assigned being Prophet (Islam), wise man (I am not sure but Judaism), son of God (Christianity), messenger of God ( many smaller religions/faiths), conduit to God or God's Executives (Hiduism).  This pretty much depicts the total humanity mosaic other than atheism.

Other than atheism, Sikhism puts everyone in the same category of part of creation where none is different from anyone.  Each may have a different level of understanding as the only difference.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 21, 2011)

Sikhisim is not a path to GOD via GuRU.

Sikhisim is a path to GuRU via GuR as envisaged in Gurbani.

This is  important to understand for all of us

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 21, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Sikhisim is not a path to GOD via GuRU.
> 
> Sikhisim is a path to GuRU via GuR as envisaged in Gurbani.
> 
> ...


Sorry prakash.s.bagga ji the way you are writing the combinations of letters (g, u, r, u) with capitals/lower case in all combinations makes little sense to me.  At timest it becomes confusing and at worst mis-leading.  Perhaps you can use the actual words from Gurbani in Punjabi (cut and paste) and then use English phonetic of lower and upper case letter combos as you please.  Then perhaps I can follow.  

On a side note, are you a follower of a Guru (sant, baba, babey, etc.) other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji right now?  You don't need to answer this if you believe it is personal or otherwise none of my business to know.  I may be totally wrong but I see hints written or otherwise of the same every once in a while.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 22, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Since you have asked a very personal question so I feel I should respond  so that 
you dont remain confused.

I appreciate your expertise in making the judgements about the personal character of me without knowing my antecidents.

Well for your information I am follower of SABADu GuRU JOTi {GuR-JOTi or GuRU-GuR}

I am,Gursikh and exclusively follow SGGS .I read only Gurmukhi script .Although I know 

and understand English but I find that English version of SGGS eraatic in words with 

respect to matras Which I consider most significant

I hope that this introduction should satisfy your goodself if not then I am helpless.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 22, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga ji I get lost with your English Phonetics writings and the use of lower and upper case letters.  I seek help to understand if you can use Punjabi words along with the English words you are using from Gurbani.

I am sorry it is not my job to judge and in my frustration I may be not right.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 22, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,,
For your help I can suggest you a book .The Book is

SACRED SUJHMANI  by Harbans Singh Doabia
                           Ex Adl Advocate Gen PUNJAB.

This book is avaiable from Singh Bros,AMRITSAR  e mail  singhbro@vsnl.com

I n this book you will find how English Phonetics have been used in Roman script and the words in Roman script in English language are as as in Gurmukhi script.
I follow this pattern of Gurbani words in English.

I dont know how much you will be convined with this author but certainly this is a book worth considering as a   ref book.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 22, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Ishna Bhenji,
> 
> You are an inspiration to us all!
> 
> ...


harry haller ji that is the only way I have looked at creator all my life, i.e. in all and everywhere.

What is your hangup, brother?  Come on over to the other side and fast peacesign  :grinningsingh:

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 22, 2011)

It is not  that important how every sikh should have his own way of relating  or for that matter interprating the Creator.

The most important is to know what is the view of GuRU regarding Creator.
Any oneshould be interested in this only.

So there is no scope of any personal view regarding Creator other than what is being refered in Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 22, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Sikhisim is not a path to GOD via GuRU.
> 
> Sikhisim is a path to GuRU via GuR as envisaged in Gurbani.
> 
> ...


Prakash.s.bagga ji your use of capital and lower case (u, U) to create phonetic equivalents is not a go for me.  This is utterly confusing so I have given trying to encourage you to write Punjabi (in addition to English phonetics).  Otherwise I am lost with your logic.

Example:
If we pronounce the following two words tell me how the letter U differs in sound between the uppercase and lower case as it does not sound different according to my learning,


*U*nder
Bl*u*nder
I don't like riddle talk.  For example,


> Sikhisim is not a path to GOD via GuRU.
> 
> Sikhisim is a path to GuRU via GuR as envisaged in Gurbani.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jul 22, 2011)

This might help from Prakash ji's post #32:



> Hint....The word GuRU  the  Capital  U is for Dulakad Matra under the letter R of the
> word GuR
> 
> The word GuRu the small  u is for Aukad Matra under the letter R of the word
> ...



*shrug smiley*


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## Harry Haller (Jul 23, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> harry haller ji that is the only way I have looked at creator all my life, i.e. in all and everywhere.
> 
> What is your hangup, brother?  Come on over to the other side and fast peacesign  :grinningsingh:
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



The other side is khalsa, for me the defination of khalsa is the where harry the clown, harry the wolf and harry the man all merge into one complete whole, 

my hangup? I am like a baby in the womb that has adjusted to its environment and is loathe to come out,kicking and screaming into the world. 

this is probably a good time to ask a question, The abrahamic god is feared, and good men are known as god fearing, should we fear the creator?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 23, 2011)

HARRY HALLER Ji,

There is no need of getting feared from the CREATOR.The Creator is always with you in all situations when all wordly relations run away.This is the unique quality of Creator being refered in Gurbani.
You are  required to recognise the CREATOR as Friend  and Guide and then see what Creator {GuR JOTi} does for you.You would become fearless as well as free from any animosity. You would start acquiring the qualities of the Creator to make you a wonderful person as GurSikh in the world.
Perhaps we are feared in recognising GuR JOTi as the CREATOR.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 23, 2011)

Prakashji, 

I have scoured the internet for references to GuR JOTI with little luck, in fact the only references on google were previous postings of yours!

Might I suggest a new thread,  where we can all debate and discuss GuR JOTI and whether we are able to recognise it as creator?

From what I can decipher from your posts, you do not follow a baba as such,more a particular translation. 

I can also find no reference on google to Sabadu, none that point towards sikhism anyway. 

I feel you are making this very hard work for us all!


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## Ishna (Jul 23, 2011)

Harry bhaji, I just found this which you might find interesting on the topic of Fear. http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart289.htm I'm going to read it now myself.

And thanks for voicing what someone like me is too meek to say!


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## Harry Haller (Jul 23, 2011)

So all along, god fearing meant fear of not being close to god, rather being scared of god, this is enormously different from the abrahamic god fearing. 

Amazing isnt it, that two words 'god fearing' can have such different meanings depending on what faith you follow

What we need is a super thanks tab for moments of life changing clarity, thank you Bhenji 

Do not confuse meekness with politeness Bhenji,


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## Ishna (Jul 23, 2011)

*falls over* How'd you get that great insight (fear of separation) from that article?! Well done! That article has gone right over my head so thanks for boiling it down. Unless you have another, secret source! :grinningkudi:


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2011)

Dear all, I respect the suggestion to start a separate thread, However, this matter of phonetic mysticism has been going on for months now. For a brief time I was able to bring it to a halt. Not long enough. Now admin and mods are going to have to be much more consistent about deleting such comments. This was indeed the stated consequence if it did not stop.

My humble suggestion on the GUR Jyoti  matter is to simply substitute the words "Guru's jyoti" mentally, read on, and do not comment because that only prolongs things. In time the novelty will wear off. Thanks.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 23, 2011)

On the subject of jyot to cool off,

‪Jyot Se Jyot Jagate Chalo - Sant Gyaneshwar 1964‬&rlm;      - YouTube

Enjoy,

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 23, 2011)

Sangat Ji,
With all due respect.
I think what Prakash Singh ji is trying to say or imply is that the meaning of "Guru Jyot" cannot be discussed. It must be made into a personal study done in solitude, where one dwells on the words of Gurbani and comes to understand the meaning on their own. 
Now if you want Prakash Singh ji's views on "Guru jyot" then that may lead to agreement and disagreement but will not lead to the understanding that he is talking about. Hence this route is counter productive for him.

Just correct me if I am wrong Prakash ji.


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2011)

Prakash S. Bagga,

Please feel free to respond to Bhagat Singh ji without anymore reference to the intricate phonics you have been promoting. Thank you.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 23, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Sangat Ji,
> With all due respect.
> I think what Prakash Singh ji is trying to say or imply is that the meaning of "Guru Jyot" cannot be discussed.
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 24, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,
There are many quotes in SGGS  with the word 'JOT/GuR JOT.If you go thru the nessages of these quotes I am sure you will getWhat I have been mentioning in all my posts.

My dear freind the word in Gurbani in Gurmukhi script is JOTi but in English you will find as JOT.{Small  i  is to indicate Sihari Mtara with the word JOT}

The word JOT or GuR JOT are the proper words of Gurbani .I am surprised at the views 
of those who think that I am trying to establish  something in my own ways.This is  gross misconception in respect of my postings.
There can be nothing out of Gurbani in my posts , anyone should verify first himself before makng any conclusion.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 24, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
If you have decided to delete the posts with the words the way these are written in Gurmukhi script of Gurbani then I have no scope of sharing my wiews in the Forum as I bekieve in making use of Gurbani words as given in SGGS with proper matras .

A couplet for sharing

:Wo Afsaanaa Jise Anjaam Tak Laanaa na ho Mumkin
 Use Ik Khoobsoorat Md Dekar Chodanaa Achaa"
Many many thanks for their cooperation to all.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2011)

<peering round nervously>

uhmm ok well, going back to abrahamic god, I would just like to share my experiences of the word 'god'. I think by default, the word god can only refer to the abrahamic god. I increasingly find myself using the word god to my wife, or customers, and it really is a killer. This morning, I mentioned to my wife about god fearing, and how in sikhism, god fearing must mean the fear of being without god. She made a face, as she always does when I mention god, if i use words like creator, order of consonance, eternal lifeforce or any number of words other than 'god', my wife is completely receptive to the concept. However, and this has happened to me with others, I can explain theories and philosophies whilst using the words creator, but as soon as I mention the word god, peoples face fall, oh, its god, I thought it was something different, something special, but its just that god thing again. The problem with the abrahamic god, is it is nothing like Waheguru. One is an angry personification, that in the old testament has a voice, a body, can walk, can get angry, plays mind games with people, the other is nothing but truth. 

I have stopped using the word 'god' in conversations as I feel it does not encapsulate the full beauty of Waheguru. It muddies the crystal clear waters not only to others but sometimes to myself. As a focus, when I think of Waheguru, I think of Ek Onkar, and the entire solar system, universe all revolving round a huge Ek Onkar!


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 24, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> If you have decided to delete the posts with the words the way these are written in Gurmukhi script of Gurbani then I have no scope of sharing my wiews in the Forum as I bekieve in making use of Gurbani words as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with proper matras .
> 
> A couplet for sharing
> ...


Prakash.s.bagga ji I don't delete your post(s), I am not a moderator here.

I do support the moderators here though and their actions.  They are more learned than I and more fairer than most.

Playing in riddles was not a technique that our Gurus supported, condoned or propagated.  They encouraged straight up understanding and communications.  They encouraged learning through fierce but respectful direct dialog.  I want to be challenged and I will respectfully try to respond in detail.  I am sure I have failed in this sometimes and have been reminded of such.  I take these as opportunities to get better.  My general expectations of others I dialog with are the same.

Below the song prakash.s.bagga ji did not fully provide against spn TOS lol  mundahug
‪Gumrah (1963) - Chalo Ek Baar Phir Se‬‏      - YouTube

I believe most dialog at spn is like the following instead,

‪GUMRAH - Tujhko Mera Pyar Pukare (Duet)‬&rlm;      - YouTube

To each their own and enjoy.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 24, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

A good gesture of display.I liked this. 

Thank you,

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2011)

This is a sidetrack,but years ago, my father, had bought his first video camera, and after dinner, made us all sit in the front room and sing a song. My late Uncle, me and my brother sang a pop song, my Auntie sang Simon and garfunkel, my dad sang Tom Jones, my mother, an indian song that escapes me, and my late grandfather, a man much ahead of his time, sang an indian song that also escaped me, but was mellow, haunting and beautiful to listen to, it was chalo ek Bar phir se,


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2011)

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭ

ਰਾਗੁ  ਧਨਾਸਰੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
रागु धनासरी महला १ ॥
Rāg ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 1.
Raag Dhanaasree, First Mehl:
ਗਗਨ  ਮੈ  ਥਾਲੁ  ਰਵਿ  ਚੰਦੁ  ਦੀਪਕ  ਬਨੇ  ਤਾਰਿਕਾ  ਮੰਡਲ  ਜਨਕ  ਮੋਤੀ  ॥
गगन मै थालु रवि चंदु दीपक बने तारिका मंडल जनक मोती ॥
Gagan mai thāl rav cẖanḏ ḏīpak bane ṯārikā mandal janak moṯī.
Upon that cosmic plate of the sky, the sun and the moon are the lamps. The stars and their orbs are the studded pearls.
ਧੂਪੁ  ਮਲਆਨਲੋ  ਪਵਣੁ  ਚਵਰੋ  ਕਰੇ  ਸਗਲ  ਬਨਰਾਇ  ਫੂਲੰਤ  ਜੋਤੀ  ॥੧॥
धूपु मलआनलो पवणु चवरो करे सगल बनराइ फूलंत जोती ॥१॥
Ḏẖūp mal▫ānlo pavaṇ cẖavro kare sagal banrā▫e fūlanṯ joṯī. ||1||
The  fragrance of sandalwood in the air is the temple incense, and the wind  is the fan. All the plants of the world are the altar flowers in  offering to You, O Luminous Lord. ||1||
ਕੈਸੀ  ਆਰਤੀ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
कैसी आरती होइ ॥
Kaisī ārṯī ho▫e.
What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is!
ਭਵ  ਖੰਡਨਾ  ਤੇਰੀ  ਆਰਤੀ  ॥
भव खंडना तेरी आरती ॥
Bẖav kẖandnā ṯerī ārṯī.
O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light.
ਅਨਹਤਾ  ਸਬਦ  ਵਾਜੰਤ  ਭੇਰੀ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
अनहता सबद वाजंत भेरी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Anhaṯā sabaḏ vājanṯ bẖerī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad is the vibration of the temple drums. ||1||Pause||
ਸਹਸ  ਤਵ  ਨੈਨ  ਨਨ  ਨੈਨ  ਹਹਿ  ਤੋਹਿ  ਕਉ  ਸਹਸ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਨਨਾ  ਏਕ  ਤਹੀ  ॥
सहस तव नैन नन नैन हहि तोहि कउ सहस मूरति नना एक तोही ॥
Sahas ṯav nain nan nain hėh ṯohi ka▫o sahas mūraṯ nanā ek ṯohī.
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.
ਸਹਸ  ਪਦ  ਬਿਮਲ  ਨਨ  ਏਕ  ਪਦ  ਗੰਧ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਸਹਸ  ਤਵ  ਗੰਧ  ਇਵ  ਚਲਤ  ਮੋਹੀ  ॥੨॥
सहस पद बिमल नन एक पद गंध बिनु सहस तव गंध इव चलत मोही ॥२॥
Sahas paḏ bimal nan ek paḏ ganḏẖ bin sahas ṯav ganḏẖ iv cẖalaṯ mohī. ||2||
You  have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot.  You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours  entrances me. ||2||


ਸਭ  ਮਹਿ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਹੈ  ਸੋਇ  ॥
सभ महि जोति जोति है सोइ ॥
Sabẖ mėh joṯ joṯ hai so▫e.
Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.
ਤਿਸ  ਦੈ  ਚਾਨਣਿ  ਸਭ  ਮਹਿ  ਚਾਨਣੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
तिस दै चानणि सभ महि चानणु होइ ॥
Ŧis ḏai cẖānaṇ sabẖ mėh cẖānaṇ ho▫e.
By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all.
*ਗੁਰ*  ਸਾਖੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਪਰਗਟੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
गुर साखी जोति परगटु होइ ॥
*Gur* sākẖī joṯ pargat ho▫e.
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.
ਜੋ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਸੁ  ਆਰਤੀ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੩॥
जो तिसु भावै सु आरती होइ ॥३॥
Jo ṯis bẖāvai so ārṯī ho▫e. ||3||
That which is pleasing to Him is the lamp-lit worship service. ||3||
ਹਰਿ  ਚਰਣ  ਕਵਲ  ਮਕਰੰਦ  ਲੋਭਿਤ  ਮਨੋ  ਅਨਦਿਨ  ਮੋਹਿ  ਆਹੀ  ਪਿਆਸਾ  ॥
हरि चरण कवल मकरंद लोभित मनो अनदिनो मोहि आही पिआसा ॥
Har cẖaraṇ kaval makranḏ lobẖiṯ mano anḏino mohi āhī pi▫āsā.
My mind is enticed by the honey-sweet Lotus Feet of the Lord. Day and night, I thirst for them.
ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਜਲੁ  ਦੇਹਿ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਾਰਿੰਗ  ਕਉ  ਹੋਇ  ਜਾ  ਤੇ  ਤੇਰੈ  ਨਾਇ  ਵਾਸਾ  ॥੪॥੩॥
क्रिपा जलु देहि नानक सारिंग कउ होइ जा ते तेरै नाइ वासा ॥४॥३॥
Kirpā jal ḏėh Nānak sāring ka▫o ho▫e jā ṯe ṯerai nā▫e vāsā. ||4||3||
Bestow the Water of Your Mercy upon Nanak, the thirsty song-bird, so that he may come to dwell in Your Name. ||4||3||

‪Aarti Sahib - guru nanak dev ji - sikh prayer‬&rlm;      - YouTube 


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
ਇਕੁ  ਤਿਲੁ  ਪਿਆਰਾ  ਵੀਸਰੈ  ਰੋਗੁ  ਵਡਾ  ਮਨ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥
इकु तिलु पिआरा वीसरै रोगु वडा मन माहि ॥
Ik ṯil pi▫ārā vīsrai rog vadā man māhi.
Forgetting the Beloved, even for a moment, the mind is afflicted with terrible diseases.
ਕਿਉ  ਦਰਗਹ  ਪਤਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਜਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਨ  ਵਸੈ  ਮਨ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥
किउ दरगह पति पाईऐ जा हरि न वसै मन माहि ॥
Ki▫o ḏargėh paṯ pā▫ī▫ai jā har na vasai man māhi.
How can honor be attained in His Court, if the Lord does not dwell in the mind?
*ਗੁਰਿ*  ਮਿਲਿਐ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਅਗਨਿ  ਮਰੈ  ਗੁਣ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥੧॥
गुरि मिलिऐ सुखु पाईऐ अगनि मरै गुण माहि ॥१॥
*Gur *mili▫ai sukẖ pā▫ī▫ai agan marai guṇ māhi. ||1||
Meeting with the Guru, peace is found. The fire is extinguished in His Glorious Praises. ||1||
ਮਨ  ਰੇ  ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਗੁਣ  ਸਾਰਿ  ॥
मन रे अहिनिसि हरि गुण सारि ॥
Man re ahinis har guṇ sār.
O mind, enshrine the Praises of the Lord, day and night.
ਜਿਨ  ਖਿਨੁ  ਪਲੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਨ  ਵੀਸਰੈ  ਤੇ  ਜਨ  ਵਿਰਲੇ  ਸੰਸਾਰਿ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
जिन खिनु पलु नामु न वीसरै ते जन विरले संसारि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jin kẖin pal nām na vīsrai ṯe jan virle sansār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
One who does not forget the Naam, for a moment or even an instant-how rare is such a person in this world! ||1||Pause||
*ਜੋਤੀ * *ਜੋਤਿ*  ਮਿਲਾਈਐ  ਸੁਰਤੀ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਸੰਜੋਗੁ  ॥
जोती जोति मिलाईऐ सुरती सुरति संजोगु ॥
*Joṯī joṯ* milā▫ī▫ai surṯī suraṯ sanjog.
When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness,
ਹਿੰਸਾ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਗਤੁ  ਗਏ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਸਹਸਾ  ਸੋਗੁ  ॥
हिंसा हउमै गतु गए नाही सहसा सोगु ॥
Hinsā ha▫umai gaṯ ga▫e nāhī sahsā sog.
then one's cruel and violent instincts and egotism depart, and skepticism and sorrow are taken away.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਮਨਿ  ਵਸੈ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਮੇਲੇ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਸੰਜੋਗੁ  ॥੨॥
गुरमुखि जिसु हरि मनि वसै तिसु मेले गुरु संजोगु ॥२॥
Gurmukẖ jis har man vasai ṯis mele gur sanjog. ||2||
The Lord abides within the mind of the Gurmukh, who merges in the Lord's Union, through the Guru. ||2||
ਕਾਇਆ  ਕਾਮਣਿ  ਜੇ  ਕਰੀ  ਭੋਗੇ  ਭੋਗਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥
काइआ कामणि जे करी भोगे भोगणहारु ॥
Kā▫i▫ā kāmaṇ je karī bẖoge bẖogaṇhār.
If I surrender my body like a bride, the Enjoyer will enjoy me.
ਤਿਸੁ  ਸਿਉ  ਨੇਹੁ  ਨ  ਕੀਜਈ  ਜੋ  ਦੀਸੈ  ਚਲਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥
तिसु सिउ नेहु न कीजई जो दीसै चलणहारु ॥
Ŧis si▫o nehu na kīj▫ī jo ḏīsai cẖalaṇhār.
Do not make love with one who is just a passing show.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਰਵਹਿ  ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ  ਸੋ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਸੇਜ  ਭਤਾਰੁ  ॥੩॥
गुरमुखि रवहि सोहागणी सो प्रभु सेज भतारु ॥३॥
Gurmukẖ ravėh sohāgaṇī so parabẖ sej bẖaṯār. ||3||
The Gurmukh is ravished like the pure and happy bride on the Bed of God, her Husband. ||3||
ਚਾਰੇ  ਅਗਨਿ  ਨਿਵਾਰਿ  ਮਰੁ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਲੁ  ਪਾਇ  ॥
चारे अगनि निवारि मरु गुरमुखि हरि जलु पाइ ॥
Cẖāre agan nivār mar gurmukẖ har jal pā▫e.
The Gurmukh puts out the four fires, with the Water of the Lord's Name.
ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਕਮਲੁ  ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਿਆ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਭਰਿਆ  ਅਘਾਇ  ॥
अंतरि कमलु प्रगासिआ अम्रितु भरिआ अघाइ ॥
Anṯar kamal pargāsi▫ā amriṯ bẖari▫ā agẖā▫e.
The lotus blossoms deep within the heart, and filled with Ambrosial Nectar, one is satisfied.
ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਤਗੁਰੁ  ਮੀਤੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਸਚੁ  ਪਾਵਹਿ  ਦਰਗਹ  ਜਾਇ  ॥੪॥੨੦॥
नानक सतगुरु मीतु करि सचु पावहि दरगह जाइ ॥४॥२०॥
Nānak saṯgur mīṯ kar sacẖ pāvahi ḏargėh jā▫e. ||4||20||
O Nanak, make the True Guru your friend; going to His Court, you shall obtain the True Lord. ||4||20|| [SIZE=-2]Guru Granth Sahib Page 21[/SIZE]


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2011)

Prakash Singh ji, perhaps you should start a thread like this. Post the shabads and perhaps do a small viakhya of them.
I think that would be helpful for everyone here.


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## Ishna (Jul 24, 2011)

Harry bhaji

Thank you for summarising what you believe to be differences between Abrahamic God and Waheguru.

The all-encompassing creative force, the Ek Oankar, was a massive attraction for me when I was first learning about Sikhi.  One of my favourite private moments now is when I jap Mul Mantar and put massive concentration into "Aad such, jugaad such, hai bhi such, Nanak hosi bhi such" and realise how eternal and all-pervading this power is in its totallity, my mind nearly explodes with rapture.

However, I'm constantly having to remind myself that Waheguru is more than just another god or version of Abrahamic God... it is comforting for me as a human to want to reach out to a personified God who loves me, who hates my enemies, who listens attentively to my prayers and petitions for help with whatever my problem might be, and keeps score of my good actions to reward me when I die.

This doesn't seem to be the truth when it comes to Sikhism.  I'm hearing that Waheguru, being a creative force waaaaay beyond any human comprehension, you realise that It doesn't love you the way your ego wants to be loved... It doesn't hate my enemies because It doesn't detect any enemies... It doesn't listen to my words saying "please help me on this path" because It is so far beyond that (I'm asking myself for the help), or "please help so-and-so with their problem"... It doesn't keep score, my actions take me closer to that divine frequency (or further away) as it is meant to happen.  The only thing between me and liberation is when I get so close that the creative force reabsorbes me into It... or am I already absorbed and liberation is when I realise that... hmm...

At least, that's where my mind is at right now.

And I'm really struggling within myself these days to keep myself motivated that this ultimate Truth is enough to satisfy me spiritually, since the allure of the Abrahamic God with his love and loyalty to "his people" sure can be tempting sometimes.  Someone who will listen to my prayers.  Someone to take the burden of responsibility off me, since Sikhi puts the responsibility squarely on the individual, it can get a bit heavy sometimes I think.

Phew, feels better to get that mess out of my brain at last, been mulling over it for a couple of weeks now.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2011)

Ishna Bhenji

Please ask yourself why the abrahamic god is so easy to sound so tempting, and why waheguru seems to offer so little in comparison, one sounds so much easier to sell!! Sikhs have never gone on crusades, it is not our way to try and convert the world, our message does not need to sound attractive to pull in the masses, that is what the baba's are there for.

I share your need to be loved, to be listened to, to have a score of my good deeds, waheguru may be unable to do that, but the sangat and the creation of waheguru can, I love you, I listen to you, through your writings I can get a measure of how good you can be, We all love you! When you feed a dog, and see the love in its eyes, it is Waheguru, the whole world is filled with life, and every now and then one of those forms will look at you, and you will see Waheguru. 

Again the personification you speak of is, I believe in the sangat, not any individual, but the whole, that is the validation, the love, its in your family, your husband, your step children. 

Ishnabhenji, I sense the mood of the ascetic, the one who is willing to bet the house on spiritual satisfaction, I have been there many times myself, please don't bet the house, that is not what sikhism is about, first and foremost you are an individual with your own life, the love of your husband, family and friends, we are not for caves and mountain tops, we are for using the gift of spiritual knowledge to live in the real world, with all its problems and challenges, if its any consolation, its harder than the mountain tops, and anyone who finds themselves winning, as indeed you are, and no one could doubt that, is a million times better than any ascetic who finds salvation on a mountain top


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## Ishna (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks for your support, brother. Your insight is amazing, I think you're a lot more full of light than you think you are! You're spot on, the mountain tops sound darn fine today! Thanks for the reminder.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2011)

Ishna ji the same goes for you: 





> I think you're a lot more full of light than you think you are!


Spiritual satisfaction can be obtained right here, right now, while being with family. One need not even go in the next room, let alone mountain tops and caves.



> At least, that's where my *mind* is at right now.


Sometimes it's with the Abrahamic God, sometimes it isn't. Next thing you know it will be elsewhere.

Ek Oankar is all-encompassing, yet the mind still makes space to leave something out it, in this case, Abrahamic God. Or is still stuck in the stage or bigger-smaller.

Drop all notions if only for a moment. All-encompassing can only come to dwell as all-encompassing when the mind is emptied of concepts, thoughts, etc. (The underlying meaning of 'concept' is "This is separate from that.")

Drop the above notions, as what I or Harry ji has said can instantly become a belief.

Just drop mental activity for a second or two when you are in your family. Just look at them as if you all have just arrived on Planet Earth. You have the power to do so and you are ready to do it now. Do share how that moment goes.


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2011)

Items removed from this thread for the following reasons:

1. There is no logical or gurmat based reason to continue discussing alternative English transliterations of words in Gurbani as if they had more significance than they have in the original Gurmukhi. Poster has been *warned over and over to cease and desist. * For example, GuRU is a transliteration and there is no special importance that cannot be found in the original text.

2. The dictionary by Professor Surinder Singh Kohli in no way supports discovery of these alternative transliterations as suggested in a recent post now deleted. I have resorted to that dictionary every day for 2 years, *and believe it or not,* I know what I am talking about. 

3. The thread has gone off topic once too often.

4. A new thread on the subject of How Sweet is Waheguru! What Waheguru Can Do and How One Can Comprehend has been graciously started by forum member Ambarsaria ji. Please direct related comments to that thread.  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...et-wahiguru-what-wahiguru-can.html#post150127

So this is about an Abrahamic God. Thanks.


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## Ishna (Jul 25, 2011)

Well i've been working on my perspective today as suggested by Bhagat ji, I've had a couple of moments where I've felt some simple peace, i say simple because when I try to settle my mental activity the peace comes without effort. But only for a moment. I have a long way to go and not feeling particularly connected currently. Will bounce back soon and know exactly what I need-to read Gurbani instead of reading forums!!

Thanks again for the discussion... We'll see how I go with this recent fascination with Abrahamic God!

Waheguru ji ki fateh...

Ish


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2011)

and what we fail to see is also this..
GOD/YAHWEH/ALLAH are Proper NOUNS..names of God/s....God is the Christian GOD.period. Allah is the God of Koran..and Yahweh is God of the Old Testament.

WE CANNOT and shoudlnt "translate" NOUNS....so EK-Oankar is NOT to be translated as God is One !! How could we make such  a huge mistake..Apart form the fact that the Christian GOD is NOT one but a Trinity...we have completley set aside the MOOL MANTAR description of Akal Purakh and transplanted GOD over it and then gone ahaead and add..God is One !! which EKOankar definitely is not saying that..in fact God is not at all in the Mool mantar...
Simialrly we simply accpeted when people told us..OH SGGS.."sikh Bible " ?? and we said YES..Sikh Bible..and why not Sikh KORAN...SIKH GITA...SIKH RAMAYAN ???
Gurdwara is "SIKH TEMPLE..why not SIKH Mosque..Sikh mandir..Sikh Church..Sikh Vihara...???/
Kesh..oh thats LONG HAIR ???  Is that so...Beard is long hair...arm-pits is long hair..???  Dastaar is "turban/puggh/headgear" oh really ?? whats so great about dastaar then ?? if hat cna go off and cap can go ON..why NOT dastaar ?? whats the big deal..
Kirpan..oh thats  a dagger..Sikh dagger.....and so on...Ardass is Sikh 'prayer"..even without simple look at the Vast Difference between PRAYER and SIKH ARDASS !! which Prayer asks for Sarbatt da Bhalla ?? How could the Ardass is prayer that is performed in church..mosque..mandir...are those praying there asking exactly what the ARDASS is addressing ?? The ARDASS is miles away from those "prayers"...yet we dont see the difference..

On the other side we BLINDLY accept that the raam and the Krishan, the Gopal the Narayan of SGGS is the EXACT SAME ones in Gita Vedas, Puranas...if we understand Gurbani even 10%...we will know they are vastly different from the ones in GURBANI..in Gurbani they are ALL ONE !! the Akal Purakh..the Creator..while in the vedas Gita etc they are different gods/demigods.men/kings etc living in different ages...


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2011)

> On the other side we BLINDLY accept that the raam and the Krishan, the Gopal the Narayan of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the EXACT SAME ones in Gita Vedas, Puranas...if we understand Gurbani even 10%...we will know they are vastly different from the ones in GURBANI..in Gurbani they are ALL ONE !! the Akal Purakh..the Creator..while in the vedas Gita etc they are different gods/demigods.men/kings etc living in different ages...



Why is this such a difficult concept to accept?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 25, 2011)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,

That is exactly I was expecting from a person of your calibre since I start postings.
Wonderful and fearless acceptance of the real fact of Gurbani .
I still expect more from your goodself from time to time.

I hope you are still required to come up with the correct pronunciation and meaning of thevery first SYMBOL in SGGS .This can dramatically change our understanding of the whole of Gurbani.
What is the real significance of numerical number ONE  of the SYMBOL it is utmost important to clarify.
I am sure you are going to take up this in your own style of presentation of the views more acceptable and considerate for many.

With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2011)

Over here in Malaysia...if I need to get my drains cleaned..i call the local council complaints office..then the supervisor..then the Dept Head..then maybe the Councillor in charge of my street...and then maybe the Council Excutive and finally the Council President..IF the drains are still the way i dont want them to be...I DONT call the  the Housing and Local developement MINISTER.....or the PM or the KING...and I certainly dont call the US President or the UNO Secretary in NY or the World law Court of Justice in Geneva......
The LOCAL "SANGAT/PANGAT" is at local level to hold my hand on small problems...if i need  a loan to buy a car i go to the nearest local bank branch..not the National Reserve bank or the World Bank..although ULTIMATELY in some remote Round about way..the WORLD BANK/National Reserve bank are INVOLVED in the loan I took to buy the car !!
The Hindus have these Ganeshas, the mai Ji..mata Ji, shivji, raam ji krishan ji statues in their Mandirrs where they "talk" to them...tell them their personal problems..pass along wish lists..EACH PERSON in HIS OWN SMALL WORLD....the Christian goes to Church and talks to the Christ on the Cross hanging on the walls..or to the St mary..or ST Francis whatever seated along the walls on shelves...again EACH is in his own small world..each asking/begging/his/her own special "I want this..i wish i had that..type of prayer...win the case for me..make my enemy lose..keep me form jail..etc etc..

WAHEGURU......is all those and yet not them at all....He has Billions of Eyes and yet has NONE...billions of Feet ..yet none...Waheguru is "PERSONAL" as far as we take it..and He is not "personal" as far as we take it...my take....Guru Arjun Ji feels He is so near..that He SPEAKS softly and sweetly...Mitth Bollrra ji Har SAJAN MERA...how come we CANNOT feel Him this way or feel He is SO FAR AWAY ?? Why do we feel the "need" to have a personification..in the form of a statue/picture/person....tree/cow/building/book/whatever to feel WAHEGURU is near and our FRIEND ?? Its a matter of learning how..to a kindergarten kid..its A for APPLE..and He has to be shown a PICTURE of a shiny RED APPLE....but then it becomes A...for "ABSTRACT"....what "picture" will we need for that ?? Imho its our CHOICE if we want and feel the need for the shiny red apple picture always..or we go forward to Abstract and still see the A for what it is...too BIG for simple apples and oranges...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
> 
> That is exactly I was expecting from a person of your calibre since I start postings.
> Wonderful and fearless acceptance of the real fact of Gurbani .
> ...



Parkash Ji..I am working on it..Thanks for the encouragement Jios
Regards


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