# Lack Of Female  Participation In Discussion



## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

I am member of almost all sikh sites and i have seen that participation of punjabi sikh women in discussions is very low.On the other hand participation of western converted sikh women is quite good compared to their population.

Is there something in sikhism that punjabi sikh women are not interested in sikhism while western women are attracted to it.

comments appreciated


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## Sherab (Oct 30, 2007)

It seems to me around my area that sikh women do not spend time discussing sikh dharma, but rather are practicing it.


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## Astroboy (Oct 30, 2007)

I thought women were more towards wanting to be heard than men.


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## spnadmin (Oct 30, 2007)

kds ji

This is a good question, and I have myself wondered. There seems to be more than one reason. Both cultural. 

Think about the responsibilities of Sikh woman at every level of society in almost any country, except those who are highly educated and who do not have careers of some kind because they do not have to work. The time and energy for forum participation is not there for most. Particularly after they go onto school or marry and start families or both. All of the Sikh women that I know personally are up at the crack of dawn, taking care of family and are then off to their jobs -- most of which are professional in nature so they take work home with them. Then back at home they have more family issues (supervising homework, cooking, planning the next day). On weekends - shopping, participating in Gurdwara activities. They never never never rest. Until they are older. 

The older women probably do have more time, but they are also products of cultural expectations that women should slip in and out of situations silently like shadows. This is not about Sikhism but about culture.

Anyway, the next time I see a Sikh woman shepherding a bunch of kids into an SUV and driving off anywhere on a Saturday morning I will remember that she was cleaning up after breakfast, tying hair and padkas, keeping everyone on task, and the Internet was the last thing on her mind.

After the bull who holds up the world, there are Sikh women holding up everything else.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> I am member of almost all sikh sites and i have seen that participation of punjabi sikh women in discussions is very low.On the other hand participation of western converted sikh women is quite good compared to their population.
> 
> Is there something in sikhism that punjabi sikh women are not interested in sikhism while western women are attracted to it.
> 
> comments appreciated


 

i don't think it has anything to do with sikhism, rather culture.  in general indian women are not really encouraged to speak their mind openly among strangers, or to disagree with strange men in the same way that is acceptable in the west.

this is only a generalization, yes, there are many exceptions.

i do see a lot of young western born punjabi sikh women speaking out lately, which leads me to this conclusion that it's more cultural than religious or ethnic.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 30, 2007)

> After the bull who holds up the world, there are Sikh women holding up everything else.



nice way to put it 

and yes I tend to agree with you and Kelly Kaur !


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> kds ji
> 
> This is a good question, and I have myself wondered. There seems to be more than one reason. Both cultural.
> 
> ...



Dear antonia ji

What you said is absolutely true for many sikh women but not for all.On punjabi cultural sikh sites the partcipation of sikh girls is quite high in useless talks.But in the religion and community section it is again boys that mainly induldge in discussions


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Dear antonia ji
> 
> What you said is absolutely true for many sikh women but not for all.On punjabi cultural sikh sites the partcipation of sikh girls is quite high in useless talks.But in the religion and community section it is again boys that mainly induldge in discussions


 

what or who determines what is "useless talks"?  isn't this discussion itself somewhat useless?


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## drkhalsa (Oct 30, 2007)

OOPS ! Useless was the wrong word and seems to be too much judgemental

I think no religious /non spirtual talk was the wrod KDS might want to use 

Yes One thing is for sure that on culture oriented sites and also networking sites like ORKUT ,H15  There are considerable number of girls speaking out their mind on every possible topics right from Sidney Sheldon , Shakeapear to Stock Market. This also makes me wonder why not spirtual sites 

May be Girls are too afrais to of Religious Male  Bullies they find at there local gurdwara and communities so they just decided stay away from this thing even on net 

may be 


Jatinder Singh


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## Astroboy (Oct 30, 2007)

What are women looking for in a forum ?

I don't see why Yahoo Answers can have so many women participants but not SPN. We have a general discussion section - does not need to be spiritual philosophy.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> what or who determines what is "useless talks"?  isn't this discussion itself somewhat useless?



i wanted to use word bakvaas .but i thought non punjabi participant are unable to understand it.actually some sites do have section called bakvaas.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> OOPS ! Useless was the wrong word and seems to be too much judgemental
> 
> I think no religious /non spirtual talk was the wrod KDS might want to use
> 
> ...



I wanted to use word bakvaas,gup shup,idhar udhar ki baatein .Please give me a translation of these words


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## spnadmin (Oct 30, 2007)

kds ji

I agree and disagree. You are correct. Participation of younger women "girls" is high. I like "women" better -- but anyway.  

What happens when the same go to college, graduate school, professions, careers, marriage, children, older parents who are sick, and all of these at once?  No time for the Internet then.

Bullies, as DrKhalsa says, are an issue. Women, and this not  about culture, will walk away from a fight most of the time, unless the problem is very important.

Good conversation.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> i don't think it has anything to do with sikhism, rather culture.  in general indian women are not really encouraged to speak their mind openly among strangers, or to disagree with strange men in the same way that is acceptable in the west.
> 
> this is only a generalization, yes, there are many exceptions.
> 
> i do see a lot of young western born punjabi sikh women speaking out lately, which leads me to this conclusion that it's more cultural than religious or ethnic.



Kelly ji 

PLease don't think that all indian women are so oppressed.condition of indian women is different
in different families.I myself grew up in joint family where women were quite influential even more then men.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> kds ji
> 
> I agree and disagree. You are correct. Participation of younger women "girls" is high. I like "women" better -- but anyway.
> 
> ...



You are right but there are still who could participate.In india one of the biggest advantage
we have over developed countries is that a person with decent income could  afford very good quality servants.so unlike developed countries where people have to all the work themselves, majority of middle class and above have part or full time servants and sikhs
generally have decent income.so you can find plenty of sikh women in india who have time to participate.


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## spnadmin (Oct 30, 2007)

kds ji

Thanks for pointing this out -- having servants. In the US if you can afford help just one day a week, it costs a lot, and we serve the servants.  They call the shots.

So now there must be other reasons, some of which have been mentioned. I will have to think about this more. And I am wondering, as Kelly Kaur and also Begum have mentioned -- there are sites where younger women participate. So why not SPN. Wasn't female participation a strategic goal for the forum a few months ago?

Regards!


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## drkhalsa (Oct 30, 2007)

kds ji

I understood what you meant to say by useless
I just interviened to remove the confusion word useless was creating .I apologise for appearing rude I never intended to do so 

the word we usually can use is Gossip , Chit chat 
But what ever you used was OK with me 

And about servant thing you have VALID point I never thought about it 
and remember our healthy ( or over healthy)females from survey thing in other post  so I can already appreciate your poit about the servant thing

thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 30, 2007)

DrKhalsa,

You are really funny sometimes - "over healthy femaie thing" -- well you don't loose weight typing on the computer as I know from personal experience.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 30, 2007)

> there are sites where younger women participate. So why not SPN. Wasn't female participation a strategic goal for the forum a few months ago?


yes Dear Friend 

we also had  two very energetic Ladies to say the least on our spn in the recent past .
But sometiing just drove them away within days of each other , Honestly I still dont have the clue what happened there .although I tried to find it out.
any idea ? 
can also PM me if needed



Jatinder Singh


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## drkhalsa (Oct 30, 2007)

> You are really funny sometimes - "over healthy femaie thing" -- well you don't loose weight typing on the computer as I know from personal experience.



yes add ji ,
I was just trying to funny ( and also worried as I am single so still to find one for m e!) , but the point that I was trying to make is that servants in home give them plenty of time to do something on net and also they can loose wait by reading some nice tips from varpus health sites and thats a bonus


Jatinder Singh


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## Astroboy (Oct 30, 2007)

Here are some headings that can be used as in Yahoo Answers. 
Forums can discuss topics in greater depth than Yahoo Answers.

Arts & Humanities 
Beauty & Style 
Business & Finance 
Cars & Transportation 
Computers & Internet 
Consumer Electronics 
Dining Out 
Education & Reference 
Entertainment & Music 
Environment 
Family & Relationships 
Food & Drink 
Games & Recreation 
Health 
Home & Garden 
Local Businesses 
News & Events 
Pets 
Politics & Government 
Pregnancy & Parenting 
Science & Mathematics 
Social Science 
Society & Culture 
Sports 
Travel


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Kelly ji
> 
> PLease don't think that all indian women are so oppressed.condition of indian women is different
> in different families.I myself grew up in joint family where women were quite influential even more then men.


 

you seem to have missed a very important sentence in my post.  i'll repost it, maybe this time it will have more meaning. 

"this is only a generalization, yes, there are many exceptions."


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> Bullies, as DrKhalsa says, are an issue. Women, and this not about culture, will walk away from a fight most of the time, unless the problem is very important.


 

agree, bullies are certainly an issue i've run into online...  being female and also being non-punjabi means i get a double dose from them.   i think those women who know how to walk away are probably more intelligent than i am.  i have the bad habit of fighting for things that are not worth it.


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## deepsingh87 (Oct 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> agree, bullies are certainly an issue i've run into online...  being female and also being non-punjabi means i get a double dose from them.   i think those women who know how to walk away are probably more intelligent than i am.  i have the bad habit of fighting for things that are not worth it.




LOL, online bullies.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

deepsingh87 said:


> LOL, online bullies.


 
yes, it seems quite silly...  until someone takes your pictures and manipulates them, posts your home phone number, address, etc, along with disturbing false allegations, in an attempt to get you to leave a site.    
(i have a cyber-stalker who is hell bent on making my life miserable...  all for the crime of being a white sikh)

at that point, one usually stops laughing.

there are some sick and disturbed people out there in "cyberspace", and they usually prey on women rather than men for some reason.  a lot of women fear this type of retaliatory behavior and do not get involved in online discussions.

unfortunately, i'm not as smart as they are.


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## Sherab (Oct 30, 2007)

I (male) would enjoy a beauty and style.. i love looking at, and buying and selling bangles... 

PS. i do not wear them, i  give them to friends who are girls that might enjoy them.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 30, 2007)

> yes, it seems quite silly... until someone takes your pictures and manipulates them, posts your home phone number, address, etc, along with disturbing false allegations, in an attempt to get you to leave a site.
> (i have a cyber-stalker who is hell bent on making my life miserable...  all for the crime of being a white sikh)


Its a kind of news to me !

I never imagined that Sikh disscusion group can also attract such Psychoes

Dear Kelly Kaur ji I dont know if it gives you some comfort but I would like to share that being doctor in traning I have worked with Such Psycho personalties and most of them are themselves suffering and ill and seriouly are in need of treatment so any thing they do cant be taken personally and there had been many incidents where such Psycho have follwed there Doctor home with a gun !
so dont take them personally they just represent unhealthy part of our society 

Jatinder Singh


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> kds ji
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out -- having servants. In the US if you can afford help just one day a week, it costs a lot, and we serve the servants.  They call the shots.
> 
> ...



Once i read on muslim forum that a muslim was saying that how foolish western women are, they do jobs outside and they also cook,clean and look after home and kids.and they call it liberation and we have defined laws where a man brings home income and a woman look after home.

Anyway as other forums are concerned ,i regularly read comments on sikhnet and the situatiion is very much similar majority is punjabi men and 2-3 western sikh women.i have even remembered the names of those western sikh women as they are quite regular who give very useful advice to others.but on the hand very few and not so regular punjabi sikh women.actually this topic was disscused on sikhnet earlier but took a bitter turn later.
That's why i thought why not start this topic on spn.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> yes, it seems quite silly...  until someone takes your pictures and manipulates them, posts your home phone number, address, etc, along with disturbing false allegations, in an attempt to get you to leave a site.
> (i have a cyber-stalker who is hell bent on making my life miserable...  all for the crime of being a white sikh)
> 
> at that point, one usually stops laughing.
> ...



Is that cyber stalker is a so called sikh?


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Is that cyber stalker is a so called sikh?


 
yes.  emphasis on the "so-called".


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

thank you doctor ji for confirming my suspicions. 

i try not to respond to the attacks except with gurbani.   what else can one do? 

the point wasn't to focus on my incident though.   i only meant to show that many women often feel more vulnerable to such attacks and so are more careful who they talk to about what online.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> yes.  emphasis on the "so-called".



I am really sorry but for this our media and proper understanding of western countries is responsible.Indian men just think that  western women are very cheap.You can just use them for sex as free sex is not taboo for them.and after that just dump them and marry a decent indian girl.There are many so many sikh girls who have their  on
punjabi sites but they never complained about this problem.


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## deepsingh87 (Oct 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> yes, it seems quite silly...  until someone takes your pictures and manipulates them, posts your home phone number, address, etc, along with disturbing false allegations, in an attempt to get you to leave a site.
> (i have a cyber-stalker who is hell bent on making my life miserable...  all for the crime of being a white sikh)
> 
> at that point, one usually stops laughing.
> ...



Why would you give your personal info to some stranger online, it doesn't matter if he or she is a sikh.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 30, 2007)

deepsingh87 said:


> Why would you give your personal info to some stranger online, it doesn't matter if he or she is a sikh.


 
i wouldn't, but thanks for the advice. 

information like phone numbers and addresses are readily available over the internet for free.  even more info (criminal records, marriage and divorce records, social security numbers, etc) can be had for a small fee.

i suppose i could avoid using my name at all online, but then i'd feel like i was trying to hide something, and i have nothing to hide.


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## spnadmin (Oct 30, 2007)

DrKhalsa ji

You should never have told us you were single. Now I have this obsession -- to play Cupid.  It is embarrassing but I cannot help myself. Now my eagle eye will be quietly scanning everyone I know to see what can be done about your situation. Cannot mind my own business. You can reprimand me. I deserve it. Marriage is a very good thing.


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## spnadmin (Oct 30, 2007)

kds ji, 

Back to the topic. Sorry. Your observation, 
Anyway as other forums are concerned ,i regularly read comments on sikhnet and the situatiion is very much similar majority is punjabi men and 2-3 western sikh women.i have even remembered the names of those western sikh women as they are quite regular who give very useful advice to others.but on the hand very few and not so regular punjabi sikh women.actually this topic was disscused on sikhnet earlier but took a bitter turn later.

An idea, just an experiment. In another discussion group which I belong to there are several Sikh women in the Punjab and also of Punjabi descent but in other countries. I will ask them what they think rather than come up with my own theories. It might be interesting also to do a poll on SPN, but the problem would be -- How to restrict answers to female members only. Maybe forum members could come up with a few ideas about this. 

Another thing that just came to mind -- at my gurdwara -- people in general, men and women, are kind of suspicious of the Internet. Hard to put into words, but that could be another factor. As in, Why would anyone spend time on the Internet? Nothing better to do? Which is a good question.


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## kds1980 (Oct 30, 2007)

> Another thing that just came to mind -- at my gurdwara -- people in general, men and women, are kind of suspicious of the Internet. Hard to put into words, but that could be another factor. As in, Why would anyone spend time on the Internet? Nothing better to do? Which is a good question.



As far as time arguement is concerned i think we should leave it to just  indivisuals.On site like ffi.org i have seen people writing 20 -30 big posts in single day and they have doing it for years.so many people do spend much time on internet.


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## Astroboy (Oct 31, 2007)

I don't know why, but I have a feeling that women's communicative assertions is viewed suspiciously by men. Men's tendency to rule and have the final say, increases women's vunerability to attacks thus driving them away. 

Men cannot (no way) treat women like boys. They are a part of us, without them we cannot survive but we have neglected to keep ourselves informed about how to treat a woman. Equality is another thing. 

Most of us here don't even know how to talk to a woman. Look at the remarks you guys leave behind. It's like a bitter pill to swallow.

Sorry boys, this time, I am siding the women. Bring the women in, let them have their own threads, and don't go messing up their small haven with an outpour of 'powerful words'. There's nothing powerful about such words. Instead they only reflect the state of our mind.

Kds Ji,

Thanks for bring up this topic, I'm sure we're all learning to allow our minds to open up a bit.


~ Santokh ~


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## Astroboy (Oct 31, 2007)

Aad Ji,

this is for you:
YouTube - Fiddler on the roof - Matchmaker ( with subtitles )

~ begum ~


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## drkhalsa (Oct 31, 2007)

> ou should never have told us you were single. Now I have this obsession -- to play Cupid. It is embarrassing but I cannot help myself. Now my eagle eye will be quietly scanning everyone I know to see what can be done about your situation. Cannot mind my own business. You can reprimand me. I deserve it. Marriage is a very good thing.


 		  		 		 		 		 		 		 			 				__________________

There is no question of Reprimanding you . Infact where I would find such  learned Sikh Matchmaker. I feeling lucky instead 
thanks for you r concern


Jatinder Singh


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## Randip Singh (Oct 31, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> I am member of almost all sikh sites and i have seen that participation of punjabi sikh women in discussions is very low.On the other hand participation of western converted sikh women is quite good compared to their population.
> 
> Is there something in sikhism that punjabi sikh women are not interested in sikhism while western women are attracted to it.
> 
> comments appreciated


 
Strange really considering that women have played a Central and key role in Sikhism......from Bebe Nanaki to Mai Bhago women have alwys been the vanguar of Sikhism......


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

begum said:


> I don't know why, but I have a feeling that women's communicative assertions is viewed suspiciously by men. Men's tendency to rule and have the final say, increases women's vunerability to attacks thus driving them away.
> 
> Men cannot (no way) treat women like boys. They are a part of us, without them we cannot survive but we have neglected to keep ourselves informed about how to treat a woman. Equality is another thing.
> 
> ...



Dear begum ji

could you please tell what remarks are written in this thread against women.In fact i have never seeen anybody insulting women on SPN.


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

randip singh said:


> Strange really considering that women have played a Central and key role in Sikhism......from Bebe Nanaki to Mai Bhago women have alwys been the vanguar of Sikhism......



I agree with you women always played a key role in sikhism.Infact women are backbone
of any religion.But at present it is not a hidden fact that punjabi sikh women are not much in religion.


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## Astroboy (Oct 31, 2007)

Some things are better left unsaid because women and men view the same conversation differently. 
I'll leave it to the women to voice themselves. 

Why am I playing arbitrator ? I did so because it was 2 women against 8 men. There has to be some kind of fairness. Being a male, my instincts might interfere in the fairness. 

kds Ji,

Here's a link :Men and Women Communicate Differently


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 31, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> But at present it is not a hidden fact that punjabi sikh women are not much in religion.


 
why do you say this?  when i was in india, i was happy to see that women outnumbered men in most of the gurdwaras i visited.  everywhere i went i saw men with short hair and shaved faces, and women with hair that had obviously never been touched with scissors.  it's women who RAISE the men, how would it be possible for the women to be less religious than the boys they bring up?

i'm sorry, but i find this comment insulting.


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> why do you say this?  when i was in india, i was happy to see that women outnumbered men in most of the gurdwaras i visited.  everywhere i went i saw men with short hair and shaved faces, and women with hair that had obviously never been touched with scissors.  it's women who RAISE the men, how would it be possible for the women to be less religious than the boys they bring up?
> 
> i'm sorry, but i find this comment insulting.



Kelly ji 

please don't get angry.i advise you to go through following blogspot and read articles and comments.You will get glimpse of what is happening

http://findingawife.blogspot.com/


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

begum said:


> Some things are better left unsaid because women and men view the same conversation differently.
> I'll leave it to the women to voice themselves.
> 
> Why am I playing arbitrator ? I did so because it was 2 women against 8 men. There has to be some kind of fairness. Being a male, my instincts might interfere in the fairness.
> ...



Dear begum ji

8 vs 2, no competetion is going on here .just a disscusion is taking place.Infact 2 women here are western one i already appreciated them for their good and valuable participation in sikh forums.


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## TGill (Oct 31, 2007)

> it's women who RAISE the men, how would it be possible for the women to be less religious than the boys they bring up?


 
I think this is what pretty much sums up the whole point, women can't be less religious than men in any which way.

As far as participation of women on online portals is concerned, I think women are much more evolved in their sensitivity that they know the fact that this boisterous fighting of men ego on net is actually a useless exercise in nutshell.

And whereever they are really required to make a point they make it with much more lucidity.:idea:


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## TGill (Oct 31, 2007)

Dera KDS ji
The blogI think just represents one persons experience and does not represent a trend.
I have seen a hindu women marrying a Khalsa guy and they have 3 children who are proper sikhs in outer appearance, but that does not mean a trend.


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

TGill said:


> Dera KDS ji
> The blogI think just represents one persons experience and does not represent a trend.
> I have seen a hindu women marrying a Khalsa guy and they have 3 children who are proper sikhs in outer appearance, but that does not mean a trend.



Dear tgill

you are quite impatient i just said that read all articles and COMMENTS with cool mind.It will take much time and then reply


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## TGill (Oct 31, 2007)

oops, Oh ok 

You actually got me there, need to work on it. Though my mind was not hot at all. Even now it is thinking in a very weird way:

- Even if we think for just a min that this trend in women exist, now as men more or less try to win over women's love and that is a natural instinct (talking about 80% of lesser mortals), so in order to do so and be acceptable to women more and more men will fall prey to this trend and ultimately the number of religious men will be lesser than women. So women win in any case over men.

Kelly ji please don't mind at any point, I am just trying to enunciate a hypothesis.

Thank KDS ji, Impatience !! got to knock it out


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 31, 2007)

interesting blog, but to me, rather than showing any lack of gursikh women, it only solidifies what i have known for some time now...  there exists a dangerous double standard in our community when it comes to men looking for wives.  

if he only wanted a gursikh wife, i'm sure he could meet someone through the gurdwara or through his family.  but he's also looking for love and attraction and the perfect housewife.  and as shown by the most recent post (the guy who goes all the way to california to meet with a patit girl only to be shocked that she would want her kids to have cut hair too...), guys want girls who look good, who their parents accept (very likely on caste basis), etc, then are angry when said women who are NOT chosen for their love for sikhi are not as religious as the guy.

here's the deal:  gursikh women do not look like bollywood starlets.  we're not necessarily of the right "caste" or even the right nationality for your parents to like us.  we don't have perfectly groomed eyebrows and lots of makeup.  we have hair on our legs and arms and even our faces.  we aren't found in bars or nightclubs.  

if men truely want gursikh girls, they need to start looking for the right traits in the right places.  if they want bollywood knockouts who cook and clean and iron and make babies...  they need to be ready to accept that these girls aren't necessarily going to meet the religious requirements.

guys need to decide which is more important to them and stop whining about how a girl with cut hair wants to cut the hair of the kids, well of course she does, why should anyone be surprised at this?


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

> if he only wanted a gursikh wife, i'm sure he could meet someone through the gurdwara or through his family. but he's also looking for love and attraction and the perfect housewife. and as shown by the most recent post (the guy who goes all the way to california to meet with a patit girl only to be shocked that she would want her kids to have cut hair too...), guys want girls who look good, who their parents accept (very likely on caste basis), etc, then are angry when said women who are NOT chosen for their love for sikhi are not as religious as the guy.



Kelly ji it looked like you too read that blog imapatiently.The guy who started the blog
is now engaged his most recent post is about his friend.and the most interesting thing about that blog is comments of different sikhs from different countries.Anyway the problem that blog mentioned is not limited to blogs .This problem is being discussed in many many sikh sites sometimes it looks to me that it is now a central issue of sikh sites.



> here's the deal: gursikh women do not look like bollywood starlets. we're not necessarily of the right "caste" or even the right nationality for your parents to like us. we don't have perfectly groomed eyebrows and lots of makeup. we have hair on our legs and arms and even our faces. we aren't found in bars or nightclubs.



Agreed if a gursikh male reject sikh women because she does not do waxing ,or trims her hair then he has no right to complain.But the fact is that gursikh women are not creating these types of blogs.I can show you several topics  about this problem on sikh sites that were discussed.but gursikh women or their brother or fathers are not starting these types
of topics on sikh sites
In past 20 years marriage of sikh women with hindu men is very common 
The worst thing is that these women just give up sikhi after marriage and raise their children as hindu's.when i started doing internet i was shocked to read about sikh girls running with muslim boys  and converting to islam in uk problem.i even search muslim , hindu sites but i have never seen these types of topics there then why only this problem is disscussed in sikh religion
Please remember without fire there is no smoke


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 31, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Kelly ji it looked like you too read that blog imapatiently.The guy who started the blog
> is now engaged his most recent post is about his friend.and the most interesting thing about that blog is comments of different sikhs from different countries.Anyway the problem that blog mentioned is not limited to blogs .This problem is being discussed in many many sikh sites sometimes it looks to me that it is now a central issue of sikh sites.
> 
> 
> ...


 

yes i read about his engagement, that's great, i'm glad his search is finally over.  one less blog for guys to hold up as a beacon to "prove" that there are no good sikh women out there. 

your post only proves to me that sikh women probably have better things to do than discuss their marriage problems in online forums.   it doesn't mean they don't face the same issues, trust me.

in real life, i've seen more sikh women having trouble finding proper turbaned sikh men to marry than the other way around.  in fact, i often see men with turban and full beard with wives/fiances who trim their hair and do their eyebrows, etc.  a female friend of mine was told by the elders of her gurdwara that she should wait until after marriage to take amrit, or she'd never find a husband.  men don't want to marry amritdhari women.  thankfully she is a strong girl and ignored their advice...  but yes, she finds that there are not many men who are interested in gursikh girls out there.  

there's a definite double standard with regards to men's expectation of beauty, etc.  sikhi tells us that god created us in a beautiful way, that we don't need to go in for these "beauty" treatments, we don't wear excessive jewlery, we don't pierce our ears, we don't remove our hair...  but society tells us that we MUST do these things to be beautiful, and the majority of so-called sikh men expect us to follow this false standard of beauty.  then they complain when we're not religious enough?  how is that fair?

and where are all of these gursikh guys coming from?  don't you think they must have religious mothers?  if they were raised right, shouldn't they also have religious sisters and cousins?  how is it possible there are so many more "religious" guys than girls?

ok, maybe the 750 girls to every 1000 guys in punjab and delhi due to female foetacide and infantacide is a major contributor to the problem...   but i think that's another topic altogether.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 31, 2007)

oh, and i think you don't see hindus or muslim complaining about this because there are so many more of them...  they simply have more choices out of sheer numbers.


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## spnadmin (Oct 31, 2007)

This thread is so wonderful to read in the middle of a kind of hard day. Thought about a lot of things. Laughed a lot too.


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

> your post only proves to me that sikh women probably have better things to do than discuss their marriage problems in online forums. it doesn't mean they don't face the same issues, trust me.



Trust me kelly ji i am really fed up this issue on sikh sites.as i finished writing my earlier post
and opened another forum a sikh woman's marriage with muslim i was discussed.And it is not only sites i do have discussion with my elders on religious issue's and they also agree that majority of young sikh girls are not  much in religion.



> in real life, i've seen more sikh women having trouble finding proper turbaned sikh men to marry than the other way around. in fact, i often see men with turban and full beard with wives/fiances who trim their hair and do their eyebrows, etc. a female friend of mine was told by the elders of her gurdwara that she should wait until after marriage to take amrit, or she'd never find a husband. men don't want to marry amritdhari women. thankfully she is a strong girl and ignored their advice... but yes, she finds that there are not many men who are interested in gursikh girls out there.
> 
> there's a definite double standard with regards to men's expectation of beauty, etc. sikhi tells us that god created us in a beautiful way, that we don't need to go in for these "beauty" treatments, we don't wear excessive jewlery, we don't pierce our ears, we don't remove our hair... but society tells us that we MUST do these things to be beautiful, and the majority of so-called sikh men expect us to follow this false standard of beauty. then they complain when we're not religious enough? how is that fair?



No debate totally agree with you double standard do exists



> and where are all of these gursikh guys coming from? don't you think they must have religious mothers? if they were raised right, shouldn't they also have religious sisters and cousins? how is it possible there are so many more "religious" guys than girls?



mothers ,aunties, grandmothers are religious.but present younger generation of sikh girls not much in religion and present generation of sikh men are also not very religious.but still you will find many turbaned sikh men in cities.


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## deepsingh87 (Oct 31, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> This thread is so wonderful to read in the middle of a kind of hard day. Thought about a lot of things. Laughed a lot too.




Some parts of this thread are quite amusing. I never really met a women who liked to talk about religious topics but once I met a white lady who said "the bible" in the same sentence 8 times.  For some reason I think Indian women are the least interested in religion.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 31, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> mothers ,aunties, grandmothers are religious.but present younger generation of sikh girls not much in religion and present generation of sikh men are also not very religious.but still you will find many turbaned sikh men in cities.


 

makes me wonder if these young turbaned sikh men are also not very religious, but just wearing turban for cultural identity?  i know this is not uncommon in india.  

in the US, i'd say only religious sikhs keep their turbans.  maybe that's better, at least we can find them easily.


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## Sherab (Oct 31, 2007)

Sorry, under-age non married white sikh here, as you all know.

It's interesting to add that, because i am religious, it gets my girlfriend (and her family) re-interested in their religion. I think they are to sued to seeing other indian sikhs, that they think its a common thing, and not to many really investigate because of the culture. But as soon as a white sikh walks in, suddenly they think "whats going on here?" and investigate.

Anyways, i think most sikh girls think it is a culture thing their PARENTS do, that they are FORCED to go to Gurdwara, etc. But i think letting them know some one other then indians are going to Gurdwaras, and practicing sikhi.

I think Sikhism needs this "new breath" of a young-white sikh generation, to let them know that they do not need to be american-ized and that america really DOES in general, appreciate diversity.

Maybe they just don't see that yet?


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> makes me wonder if these young turbaned sikh men are also not very religious, but just wearing turban for cultural identity?  i know this is not uncommon in india.
> 
> in the US, i'd say only religious sikhs keep their turbans.  maybe that's better, at least we can find them easily.



It depends how strict your family is.The urban sikhs are of mainly khatri,arora ,ramgarhia caste and many of them are very strict about boys wearing turban and not cutting their hair.beleive me they can forgive anything but not their boys cutting hairs.That's why many boys do wear turban the other hand the majority of punjab rural population which is jatt is now clean shaven.AS dr.khalsa ji was mentioning  some days back that out of 12,000 sikh men he was unable to found a fully turbanned and bearded sardar in rural punjab in the age bracked of 18 to 25 so a lot depends on family and social presure.


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## kds1980 (Oct 31, 2007)

Also kelly ji you said that amritdhari women are unable to find turbaned husbands
as far as i know an amritdhari can marry only amrit dhari.and according to some orthodox your amrit is broken if you have relationship with non amritdhari. so if they are orthodox could they marry non amritdhari turbaned husbands.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 31, 2007)

Really Nice disscusion going just love to read it !

what I have observed

I have been living in diffrenet places of India and Abroad in past 5 years and what I have observed is that No of religious Guys and Girls just go hand in hand in almost all the places 
but the expresion is between bit different 


there is lot of difference in Expression of religious intent by a girl as compared to boy .

there is basic difference in Psyche of Females that they are more grounded in thinking which mean to say they are more bent toward Dedication than the intellectual disscusion of Sikhism this is more common in eastern world due to their role in society.

Sikh teenage Girls and Boys feels little bit of extra pressure in India due to Bollywood and TV Industry just dont represent them enough or may be worse in bad shape so there is general trend that appears to be non Sikh but still spirtual .

I have met many Girls who wants to talk about spirtuality but not sikhism why? becasue they kind of carry too much assumptions about being a skh and how difficult it is 

No matter ho wmuch trendy or otherwise any young man or woman is but deep down everybody want to be Spirtual as its our original Nature so most of the times I have found that many people who appears to quite un sikh are very spirtual just down there skin you just need to look little bit deeper and all this Fashion thing is very superficial


there were just too many random thougts coming by my mind but jsut have little time at the moment will write again 

Thanks for the disscusion


Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 31, 2007)

DrKhalsa ji

Not random thoughts. There is in each sentence a lot to ponder. One thing that you said we should all take note of. Dedication is an expression of spirituality. And it is an expression of sikhi. Selfless dedication to the responsibilities of life, to family and society -- that is one thing that is unique about Sikhism. Everyone believes in this but Sikhism makes a point of openly embracing it in every story of the Gurus, in prayer, in Bani. You pointed this out when you described the spirituality of Sikh women.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 31, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Also kelly ji you said that amritdhari women are unable to find turbaned husbands
> as far as i know an amritdhari can marry only amrit dhari.and according to some orthodox your amrit is broken if you have relationship with non amritdhari. so if they are orthodox could they marry non amritdhari turbaned husbands.


 

can you show me where this is written?  because i know of several families with one amritdhari parent/spouse...


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## kds1980 (Nov 1, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> can you show me where this is written?  because i know of several families with one amritdhari parent/spouse...



http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/anand-sanskar.asp
q. Amritdhari Sikh ought to get his wife also Amritdhari

I have read many debates on this issue the most recent one is this

http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/disc...A02B5C7720FF03E087257331003FBE2A!OpenDocument

So marrying a non amritdhari is controversial.Also at present the difference's  in rehat of many amritdhari's could contradict the life style's of other.so its much better if an amritdhari marry an amritdhari of its own instituion,jatha etc.


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## Astroboy (Nov 1, 2007)

But after all that has been said so far, I still don't understand WHY THERE IS 
a lack of female participation in discussion.


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## drkhalsa (Nov 1, 2007)

> But after all that has been said so far, I still don't understand WHY THERE IS
> a lack of female participation in discussion.
> 
> 
> ...



We are slowly Getting there ! 
that was nice way to say it


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## drkhalsa (Nov 1, 2007)

> DrKhalsa ji
> 
> Not random thoughts. There is in each sentence a lot to ponder. One thing that you said we should all take note of. Dedication is an expression of spirituality. And it is an expression of sikhi. Selfless dedication to the responsibilities of life, to family and society -- that is one thing that is unique about Sikhism. Everyone believes in this but Sikhism makes a point of openly embracing it in every story of the Gurus, in prayer, in Bani. You pointed this out when you described the spirituality of Sikh women.



Dear Aad ji

you are very good Psychologist , you just read my thoughts . I just  wanted to say  exactly this .

as I remember form my own experience  , I cant remember a single day when I was young and my mother used to tie my hair Knot and patka that she might have shown any reluntance to do so , although she suffered from severe allergic Rhinitis .

why I am saying this is becuase I had very long Hair when I was young and now a days the number one reason young boys give to cut there hair is that it is too hard to maintain it . Even some mothers gives this reason to why there Children has Short hair

So it is kind of Silent dedication of women that she express her Spirtuality 

Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## Astroboy (Nov 1, 2007)

*God teach me patience, but please hurry.*


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## bade_ustaad (Nov 1, 2007)

Here is one reason why?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1665053.cms
*NRI girls turn criminals for money, boyfriends *
20 Jun 2006, 2348 hrs IST , Gur Kirpal Singh Ashk , TNN

PATIALA: They are teenage girls of Indian origin, born and brought up in Canada. And, they are increasingly turning to a life of crime, peddling drugs for easy money and to be able to boast of toughie boyfriends on their arms. 

This new generation of Indo-Canadian girls has set off alarm bells in the Canadian police force. So much so that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) has launched initiatives like weekend camps and after-school games to keep the young women off the streets. 

While doing a special story on South Asian gangs, Canadian Broadcast Corporation (CBC) quoted Rosie Thakar, diversity coordinator for RCMP, Surrey (British Columbia), as saying that more and more Indian origin teenage girls are turning to prostitution and ending up as drug-runners for these gangs. 

"Our younger girls are getting used in this process, whether it is for easy money or to get gangster boyfriends." 

What has the RCMP worried is the fact that the number of Indo-Canadian teenage girls joining such gangs is increasing. 

A 15-year-old girl taking part in Thakar’s programme said South Asian girls see this as a way to get rich fast. 

"Girls just want money. They like to go shopping," the girl said. "They just need more money, so they sell drugs." 

A worried RCMP has launched a new female-only programme to help teenage girls build self-esteem in Surrey. But the problem is not limited to that region. 

Baltej Pannu, an NRI broadcaster who has lived in Canada for 19 years, told _TOI _: "The problem of South Asian gangs is very serious in all of Canada. Besides British Columbia, these gangs are also a huge headache for police of Ontario province, which also has a dense population of Punjabis."


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 1, 2007)

interesting article, but thank God i don't see this as common place. 

actually, most of the young amritdhari girls i know are canadian. they wear dastaar, they get up at amrit vela, they practice kirtan before school and attend smagams on their holidays.  they're hardly this "life of crime" sort, thank God.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 1, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Indian Sikh Traditions, Sikh Marriage Ceremony, Sikh Wedding Conventions, Matrimonial Ceremony of Sikhs, India
> q. Amritdhari Sikh ought to get his wife also Amritdhari
> 
> I have read many debates on this issue the most recent one is this
> ...


 
hmm, i guess i see it more as a recomendation (and for good reason) than an injunction.  also, it specifically mentions men...  i wonder why?  i do know several families with an amritdhari mother but not father.  or even if she's not amritdhari, in most families i know it's the mother who wakes up at amrit vela to do her bani every day, the mother who attends gurdwara every day, the mother who does seva as often as possible, the mother who keeps her children's hair maintained...  

honestly, i don't think i'll ever be able to swallow the idea that men are somehow more religious.  it just doesn't mesh with what i've seen in my every day life.  

(note:  all of my sikh friends are indian born or of indian origin, i don't know any white sikhs, but from what i've read, among white sikhs women are even MORE religious...  heading gurdwaras and participating in committies in larger numbers than men, etc).


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## spnadmin (Nov 3, 2007)

Members 

As promised, I polled the women who are members of a Sikh discussion network where discussions of Gurbani and Gurmat take place.
Those responding so far (ages 25 and older) are wives, mothers and career women, all at once. Their view is that they have very little time left in their day to spend on the net-- and the time they have to themselves is time when they would rather meditate and read Gurbani rather than discuss it. When more respond, I will  give an update.


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## Astroboy (Nov 3, 2007)

In Malaysia, the women generally internalise sikhi more than outwardly. Almost every sikh sehajdhari woman follows and keeps herself well informed about gurdwara programmes. There's hardly any sikh mother who doesn't know how to do paath. There are sikh families who can be termed "too westernised" and their very short hair is becoming a trend amongst most teenagers. Eventhough, they themselves are not following sikhi they do make their children adopt proper sikh discipline unlike themselves. 

Currently, there is no proper sikh preacher who is able to lead them starting from their view point. This can cause the rift to widen even more. But surprisingly, they do not see amritdharis as fanatics anymore but seek to learn from them. Intermingling is very common. Amritdharis are not stressing nor imposing the sikh conduct upon the sehajdhari sikhs. They just accept them as part of the community. 

Of course, there is this general tendency of sehajdharis to take the back seat in religious activities while the amritdharis are always at the fore-front and leading all gurdwara activities. 
90% of teenage girls cut their hair and want to 'keep up' with the world. 
There is no sikh preacher to keep them within the fold of core sikhi (without dogma). Hence, many are influenced by other religions like christianity.

There seem to be an increase in sikhs attending church mass but the overall numbers are negligible in percentage.


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## kds1980 (Nov 3, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> Members
> 
> As promised, I polled the women who are members of a Sikh discussion network where discussions of Gurbani and Gurmat take place.
> Those responding so far (ages 25 and older) are wives, mothers and career women, all at once. Their view is that they have very little time left in their day to spend on the net-- and the time they have to themselves is time when they would rather meditate and read Gurbani rather than discuss it. When more respond, I will  give an update.



Antonia ji i agree with it,not only women but participation of married men is much less than single men on diffrent forums.


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## kds1980 (Nov 3, 2007)

> Of course, there is this general tendency of sehajdharis to take the back seat in religious activities while the amritdharis are always at the fore-front and leading all gurdwara activities.
> 90% of teenage girls cut their hair and want to 'keep up' with the world.



What about boys? how many keep their hair and wear turban in malayasia


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## Astroboy (Nov 4, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> What about boys? how many keep their hair and wear turban in malayasia


Those who wear dastars,70% of all teenage sikh boys shave their beards . Even they do not participate actively in community service but rather are seen hanging around in small groups chit chatting amongst themselves. They are least interested in what's going on in the darbar sahib. With mona sikh teenagers, sky is the limit. What to say about them ?

Girls are more disciplined where gurdwara programmes are concerned.

But there are isolated groups of teenage girls who regularly visit discos and what not. They do not believe in religion. The kind of things they do could be tongue piercing, permanent tattoos, looking like a punk, weed smoking, alcohol and cigarettes, car racing, etc. This is a phase they go through and the lucky ones come out of it.


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## kds1980 (Nov 4, 2007)

It means that 70% boys shave their beards while 90% girls cut their hair.so number of keshdhari boys is three time than girls

am i right?


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## TGill (Nov 4, 2007)

30 % boys may be less than 10% girls if total population of boys is lesser than girls.

3 times !!  ... That is not necesary


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## kds1980 (Nov 4, 2007)

TGill said:


> 30 % boys may be less than 10% girls if total population of boys is lesser than girls.
> 
> 3 times !!  ... That is not necesary




Yes it could be . but in a society ratio of boys and girls is almost equal


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## sher_jatt_iqbal (Dec 18, 2007)

<<<<<<<<<<<  deleted  >>>>>>>>>>>


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