# How Important Is Matha Tekking?



## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

Gurfatehji

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh

I do try my best to avoid talking about Sikhism to other Sikhs, I find it a pointless and stressful exercise, I rarely see eye to eye, and I dislike arguing about religion, however, I found myself being drawn into an argument, I tried my hardest to tactfully concede my point of view, but in the end, I was accused of behaving in a complete unSikh like manner, 

The subject is how important is it to Matha Tek in front of Babaji when you visit someones house. I will be honest, I find it irrelevant, to read Babaji is a different matter, I do not think you can read enough, as long as it is actually reading and understanding, rather than just whizzing through for the sake of it, but Matha Tekking, I find living and understanding Baniof much more importance than paying lip service by Matha Tekking. Access to Bani for me is more through my computer these days, I do not Matha Tek my computer, I just read the Bani and try and learn and practice it in life, to elevate the act of Matha Tekking above this seems ludicrous to me. 

However, I am now told that it is also good practice to Matha Tek a picture of Ek Onkar, but this just seems like more superstition to me, in the end I had to concede that I clearly was not a Sikh, which was upsetting for me to say, but    rather than argue a point which was clearly causing friction, seemed the easiest thing to do, 


Comments please, thank you


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

With YOU 110%. Lip service/peer pressure/mummy daddy told me so/what will others think/everyone does it......are the Major reasons why sikhs matha tek...its just a mere Formality..nothing more. I see no reason to join these...so if I feel like just going in and sitting down..i do that..or if i dont feel worthwhile even going upstairs..i dont..the ONLY Time I DO FEEL like Matha Tekking..is before i sit down for my RAOL..in an akhand paath/sehaj paath...then i feel i have to Connect and offer my apologies ofr any inadvertant mistakes or errors and to ask Guru ji for His Kirpa and understanding to bless my 2 hours communication with HIM.....
You see Guur Ji says..Tudh bin mannggeha sir dukheh dukh...and bin bolian sabh kich jaanda...To ASK for anything besides HIM/His Kirpa..is jst asking for trouble...and He KNOWS our needs without being asked..YET we have Granthis making lists to read in ardass...and all the "needs" are NOT his Kirpa.naam but worldy goods...so called sukh..a direct violation of Gurbani..i feel that very offenisve and hypocritical..hence my avoidance of such ardasses and matha tekking sessions..


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## simranbir (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> With YOU 110%. Lip service/peer pressure/mummy daddy told me so/what will others think/everyone does it......are the Major reasons why sikhs matha tek...its just a mere Formality..nothing more. I see no reason to join these...so if I feel like just going in and sitting down..i do that..



waheguru g ka khalsa 
waheguru g ki fateh

me also with u 70% for lip servce as its not that important but not its not a mere formality....... its the emotions of sangat to kiss the dust of guru's feet.

but yes matha tekana is really really very important for every sikh or non sikh while going guruduwara sahid otherwise it would make us and babaji at the same level which we are definitly not.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Veer Ji 

Confucius used to bow to his employer before he even entered the grounds ,he must have been a Sikh lol


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## simranbir (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji
> 
> Confucius used to bow to his employer before he even entered the grounds ,he must have been a Sikh lol


a sikh never bend his/ her sees before any other person/ material other than guru granth sahib veerji


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



> a sikh never bend his/ her sees before any other person/ material other than guru granth sahib


Veerni Don't you bow to mother and father ?


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

I see no problem with bowing before anyone I fully respect, such may be my parents, or elderly relatives, or learned people with wisdom. I bow out of pure respect and also humility, did not Guruji wipe Sri Chand's feet with his own beard, such actions destroy the ego, and make a mockery of the whole game of pride and status, I find such humble behaviour makes you stronger, as it means you cease playing the game that we all play called life. 

I do not play games with Guruji, if I were to see him, of course I would bow to him as I bow to my mother or father, but to elevate this act to the point of importance, to say it there is a point to it, to even suggest it is Sikhi, in my view is wrong, there is nothing Sikhi about bowing, it is pure respect and an expression of heartfelt love. 

However in the world we live in, where more are concerned with the bowing over the content, I believe such discussion can only further the pearls of wisdom that must be first absorbed, and then lived, that is the SGGS.  

I am sorry to say that I find the more elaborate the Matha Tek, the more shallow the individual, I would be most interested from anyones opinion that feels the opposite


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## Ishna (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



> I am sorry to say that I find the more elaborate the Matha Tek, the more  shallow the individual, I would be most interested from anyones opinion  that feels the opposite



Harry ji

I want to give you the example of when I first started going to Gurdwara Sahib, and I was so nervous I would get to darbar sahib very early so no one would see me.  One morning, before anyone else was in there, a Singh came in and did the most elabourate matha tek I've ever seen to date - he didn't just bow, he layed down on his stomach!  I would like to say it was a genuine matha tek, but I recall he had a friend with him at the time.  So even that may have just been for the friend's benefit.  But who am I to judge?


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Sis, 

my personal feeling? it does not even have to be for anyone else's benefit, I think some people kid themselves that the more elaborate the Matha Tek, the more operatic the recitation, the more Path, the bigger the turban, the more parshad butter they can wipe on their beards all add up to being a better Sikh, when in my view, the best Sikh is the anonymous bloke, or lady, at the back who quietly comes in, does some seva, listens to the kirtan, learns something, validates his thinking maybe, and then leaves and carries on being a Sikh, on the way home, when he gets home, when he wakes up, when he goes to work, 

I think people can fool themselves as well as trying to fool others


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## Ekampreet Kaur (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh jio to everyone..!!

I agree with harry haller.Plus Matha tekna means....apna app guru nu sompana means apne Mat guru nu sompne te guru to Mat laine....


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## simranbir (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veerni Don't you bow to mother and father ?


hanji asi apne mamma papa agge shish chukane han galat nahi  hai par ohna nu parmatma mann ke nahi aur eho mera matalabc g
edda respect taa assi kayian di karde han par kise v murti agge shish chukande.

aur agar pakke sikh ho ta waheguru g ki fateh bulaya karo apne mum dad nu

i mean say fateh to mum dad instead of bowing


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## simranbir (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veerni Don't you bow to mother and father ?



yes it is true that i never bow to my parents because they taught me to say fateh

your shish is really very valuable and should only be bowed to guru granth sahib ji

otherwise a sikh should always say fateh thats what guru govind singh ji taught us and our four sahibjade ji

please coment if you dont agree with me


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Creator is everywhere, and in everyone and everything, this is the exact reason I do not feel Matha Tekking is a huge deal, it is no different to what Guru Nanakji preached against in Mecca, but by the same token I see no harm in bowing to Creator within other forms that deserve such respect, ultimately it is all Creator


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## Archived_member15 (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



harry haller said:


> Creator is everywhere, and in everyone and everything, this is the exact reason I do not feel Matha Tekking is a huge deal, it is no different to what Guru Nanakji preached against in Mecca, but by the same token I see no harm in bowing to Creator within other forms that deserve such respect, ultimately it is all Creator


 
I agree with you Harry, although this issue of _Matha Tekking _(bowing) is common through all religions, some especially elaborate ie in Islam and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. 

In Orthodox Christianity - that is Eastern Catholicism - these Catholics are REALLY into this. They call it *Zemnoy poklon ("great bow" literally ground bow) *and here is an illustration of the Six different kind of Zemnoy Poklon: 







These different bows are done at different times during the Eastern Catholic liturgy, especially at the mention of the Name. 

In the West, Roman Catholics do not do the full _Zemnoy Poklon _but rather we do _Poyasny_ ("little bow", literally belt bow) which is the first bow of only the head that you see in the image, and we also _*genuflect* (bending at least one knee to the ground along with little bow of head as in above picture 1) _whenever we enter or leave a Church before the Altar, that is the Tabernacle, where the Blessed Sacrament is kept, as in this picture: 















I - rebel that I am lol - don't genuflect when I enter or leave the Church. My parents are always angry with me since they think that it looks "lazy" or is disrespectful towards the Altar and the Blessed Sacrament, however I honestly see no point in doing it because I think that it is "automated" and not necessary to my spiritual growth. 

The custom of bowing the head at the mention of His Name was formally written into law at the Second Council of Lyons, A.D. 1274, convened by Pope Gregory X: "_*Those who assemble in church should extol with an act of special reverence that Name which is above every Name, than which no other under Heaven has been given to people, in which believers must be saved, the Name...Each should fulfil in himself that which is written for all, that at the Name every knee should bow; whenever that glorious Name is recalled, especially during the sacred Mysteries of the Mass, everyone should bow the knees of his heart, which he can do even by a bow of his head*_". 

I don't do it lol lol Does that make a bad Catholic???????? In fact since the 60's most Catholics don't do it. Its kind of been phazed out, and the Church doesn't bother. However everyone is still expected to _genuflect _or at least still does genuflect, but i don't. 

Nevertheless I agree with you that I would be happy to bow before any person that I respect, as Blessed Pope John XXIII did with the Islamic mystic Rumi: 


*“In the name of the Catholic World, I bow with respect before the memory of Rumi.”*

_- Pope John XXIII, Message to Turkey, 1958_


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



> yes it is true that i never bow to my parents because they taught me to say fateh
> your shish is really very valuable and should only be bowed to guru granth sahib ji
> otherwise a sikh should always say fateh thats what guru govind singh ji taught us and our four sahibjade ji
> please coment if you dont agree with me


 
Veerni

Bow is physical extension of Self-Submission if done for right reason,if done for the wrong reason it's no longer bowing ,its just bending over.


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Vouthonji

Many thanks for your post, I cannot believe how similar our religions are, although I feel the external signs of devotion are more prevalent in Sikhism. Matha Tekking, like hair, is a wonderful gesture of humility and devotion as part of a whole and complete acceptance of the Hukam of Creator, however without a complete acceptance and submission to will of Creator, they remain gestures only


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veerni
> 
> Bow is physical extension of Self-Submission if done for right reason,if done for the wrong reason it's no longer bowing ,its just bending over.



Spji, 

I find your posts of late brimming with just the right balance of wisdom, wit and enlightenment, to the point that at time I am envious that I had not thought of some of your comments myself mundahug


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## Archived_member15 (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



harry haller said:


> Vouthonji
> 
> Many thanks for your post, I cannot believe how similar our religions are, although I feel the external signs of devotion are more prevalent in Sikhism. Matha Tekking, like hair, is a wonderful gesture of humility and devotion as part of a whole and complete acceptance of the Hukam of Creator, however without a complete acceptance and submission to will of Creator, they remain gestures only


 

I agree brother Harry ji gingerteakaur

I agree that Matha tekking/Zemnoy poklon/genuflection is indeed a beautiful gesture of self-abegnation and self-surrender/abandonment to the divine providence. However I do feel that a lot of people just do it because they've been brought up doing it, they see everyone else doing it and its just kind of automatic without any true understanding of the Joy of Full Surrender to the Will of God. If done without this, then these actions are hollow. Our inner should be one with our outer; our inner state of mind should manifest itself in outward action - however some people seem to get caught up in doing the physical actions without the inner state of mind, if you know what I mean.

Indeed I feel that if done with the wrong mind set, it is really better not to do it at all.


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## Ambarsaria (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



harry haller said:


> Sis,
> 
> my personal feeling? it does not even have to be for anyone else's benefit, I think some people kid themselves that the more elaborate the Matha Tek, the more operatic the recitation, the more Path, the bigger the turban, the more parshad butter they can wipe on their beards all add up to being a better Sikh, when in my view, the best Sikh is the anonymous bloke, or lady, at the back who quietly comes in, does some seva, listens to the kirtan, learns something, validates his thinking maybe, and then leaves and carries on being a Sikh, on the way home, when he gets home, when he wakes up, when he goes to work,
> 
> I think people can fool themselves as well as trying to fool others


Harry Haller ji I told you to not share what I do when going to a Gurdwara and SGGS being in presence   lol  lol.

As part of an associated behavior, I would normally not put my back towards SGGS at one time.  Many people you perhaps see these days walking backwards after "Matha Tek".  It came up as a point of note with one of my friends.  He simply stated most elegantly,



> Once you have offered your head in "Matha Tek" to SGGS, what else is needed.​


Hence this habit of mine got abandoned.

In terms of bowing before SGGS.  I treat the wisdom thereof and love of that wisdom as a person.  Matha Tek is simply an expression of this and while on the ground prostate, I do talk to myself.  No demands just reminders to self of being good, being better, being caring, wishing well, etc.  So I find it functionally OK and unique time.  But again to each their own.

Fundamentally if your heart has no respect, 100,000+ "Matha Teks" are not going to make it any better.  Choice is for each one of us to show or not overtly show respect.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member15 (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

BTW in the West, Catholics used to do the full ground bows - the "full whammie" so to speak - until 1502, when genuflection became standardized. Also in Eastern Catholic Churches there are no seats but just a floor where everyone stands and of course bows at the appropriate times, whereas in western Catholic Churches there are seats - called pews - which is why we stopped doing the full one and instead brought in genuflection when entering Church, just before you sit down on the seat, and when leaving, always facing the altar. 

We also still kneel down in our seats, putting our legs onto a kind of comfy cushion in front of us during the Eucharistic part of the mass, so we do bowing that way as well, and our head is of course bowed. I DO bow during this part - so I'm not a complete rebel lol 

It kind of became difficult to do all that bowing in Churches along with seats which is why we had the change in 1502 :grinningkaur: But as I say in Eastern Catholic Churches they still do the full thing, much like Sikhs. 

Eastern Catholics and Western Catholics share the exact same faith, we differ only in our cultural diversity, in customs etc. We are the same Church though.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Matha tek to show love for Guru is just show off. Math tek which comes with love for Guru, without thinking is true respect.


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## Luckysingh (May 21, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Quote from above
Once you have offered your head in "Matha Tek" to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, what else is needed

Ambarsariaji, I have to agree with your friends quote. 
Although, many times I feel it disrespectful if I just matha tek and walk straight out without turning around, so if I haven't for some reason sat down after, then I will try to make the effort to turn around or it just makes me feel guilty for not sitting !  even if I  have a valid reason for not sitting.

Now, here in Vancouver I have noticed that there seems to be this tradition with a lot of the sangat to first matha tek, then get up and circle around the Guru Granth Sahib one time and then sit down. This often involves them going on to the so called stage and then back down. It is something that I don't remember encountering much in UK. I think there were very small numbers that did this back there, but here the numbers are huge.

In all honesty I have never done this, my personal reason I shall give-

When I was new here, I had my aunty with me and one time I offered a 'rumalla' to the gurdwara with my matha tek. Now, my aunty told me that I should matha tek, make the offering and then walk or circle around the Guru Granth Sahib. - I strongly refused to do this as deeply I felt this to be the offering of my head. As I am not amrithdhari, I felt that I haven't offered my head to the amrit baptism then it is wrong for me to falsely offer it here. 
This is just my own understanding but I strongly felt this way inclined.

I do still feel sometimes that it should only be done by those willing to offer the head. Although, no one has ever stated this, but It's just my assumption.

When I'm sitiing there and I see others taking this circle route around the Guru Granth Sahib, I know I shouldn't say or feel this,- But, I can't help thinking that 'is this person really prepared to offer their head ?', especially if they are not amritdhari.
I know this is probably a biased and wrong thought, but in all honesty I can't help it.
I sometimes get a little annoyed if I feel an unsuitable person is taking the circle,or if I feel that they haven't washed and got up at amritvela -I know that's bad, but  I'm being honest about a weakness here. Just because someone's amritdhari doesn't mean they are more prepared than the non-amritdhair to offer their head, I know and understand.

Perhaps someone may make this act after matha tek a little clearer.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 22, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Lucky singh ji..From where did you get the idea that the GURU only wants "amritdharee heads" and NOT the non-s..." The GURU is for *ALL*..not exclusively for amrtidharees..or nons....SGGS makes this clear...its UNIVERSAL GURBANI form the Creator..and we are Kudrat ke sabh bandeh...Ek noor te sabh jag upjiyah..


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 22, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



> GURU only wants "amritdharee heads"


 
Our Guru has no want.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 22, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Our Guru has no want.



well in  a matter of speaking..maybe..BUT Guru Gobind Singh ji did stand up on stage and demanded a Head five times..and He got them. I am not sure he "wanted" the heads ???/ Guru nanak ji also wrote..je ko prem khelan ka chao..sir dhar gali meri ao.....again.."want" or "need"..or what ?? icecreammunda


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 22, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



> maybe..


 
Maybe he asked for what which he knew we needed.


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## Taranjeet singh (May 22, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Responding to original Post, here are some of the thoughts:

*Even if one is unable to extend onself to take Babaji in embrace, one should do it;

Even if one is not able to snap off ego boundaries , one should do it;

Even if one does not like it, one should do it, *

His grace comes to us through Baba ji through our 'unconscious' wisdom-self or 'conscious' self. Submission of self ensures its receipt. Let one become a part that smoothens the flow of this Grace that one may always reject afterward but Let that one should become so that divine purpose be achieved.

So do it so that there is no Hindrance in the Divine flow of Grace. What and why others do be not thy concern.Let it be so if it is so.

I am reminded of a line of Japu ji Sahib...


Lakh sianapa..hovey ta ek na chalay naal
Kiv sachiara hoveea kiv kurre Tute paal.

_plus_
While in Rome do as the Romans do..
_And_
Some keertanayes sing and recite the following before taking up the shabad.
*Dandaut  Vandan  Anik Baar Sarab Kala Samrath;
Dolan te Rakhu Prabhu         Nanak de kar  hath....*


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## Kamala (May 22, 2012)

It's showing respect, if you cannot do that then you obviously don't care.


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## Luckysingh (May 22, 2012)

Kamala said:


> It's showing respect, if you cannot do that then you obviously don't care.


 
Care, about what ?

Just joking!!!peacesignkauricecreammunda

Actually it's a good point about the 'care'.  As I'm sure that there are many that just do it not because they particularly feel like it. But because they 'care' about what others will think.
Just because others may sigh, comment or be offended if they see someone eliminating the matha tek, they then feel obliged to do it all because of what others 'care' or feel.
This is 'false' and all for 'show',

This is similar to what I was saying about circulating or going around the Granth Sahib after matha tek. Do they really mean it, or do they really feel that they are offering their head ?

As I said, this is what it means to me, not wether you are amritdhari or not, but if you are prepared to offer your head. I personally feel that this honour of going around means exactly that to me, it's not official or anything but my personal opinion.
A little like saying 'chakkar varna granth davaalay like sir varn nu tyar, guru laye'

Is there anyone on here who regularly does this as an extension of their 'matha tek' ?- If so, why do you really do it ?

Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

The question is not whether to Matha Tek or not, that would be stupid question.....

The question is how important is it in relation to reading, absorbing and living the SGGS. 

As I have said earlier, Matha Tekking is like keeping hair, it is an outward physical expression of love and connection with Creator and Guruji.However, like hair, some may concentrate on the physical aspects more than the inner, it is easier to keep hair and Matha Tek, than it is to live by Bani. It is easier to wear a doctors white jacket than it is to spend years at medical school, hope that clarifies


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

> It's showing respect, if you cannot do that then you obviously don't care.



I think there is a tendency to focus on the respect/ritual part more than the learning part, but then, Hinduism is more about ceremony and ritual than Sikhism so your comment is understandable


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## SaintSoldier1699 (May 23, 2012)

Great discussion.

Personally I feel its more important to understand/read/vichaar Gurbani.  The relationship we have with Guru ji is personal and develops over time depending on our own journeys.

I see many different types of matha tekh's but inevitably everyone has their own way of showing respect for our Guru which no one can really restrict unless it's so strange it causes problems!  

A significant influence on Sikh's is the "guilt" factor.  As another member mentioned this before about feeling guilty for not sitting etc etc.  Sikhs have fallen prey to the guilt that it prohibits them from understanding the faith and further development.  Everyone is very knowledgeable about these ritualistic do's and don't's when this effort should be used to further their knowledge of Gurbani and lessons it teaches us to live in practice.


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## Taranjeet singh (May 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> The question is not whether to Matha Tek or not, that would be stupid question.....
> 
> The question is how important is it in relation to reading, absorbing and living the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



Harry ji,

An intelligent question by intelligent people! 

I am your first class fan for reasons and one of those is that you express your self in a crystal clear manner. You must have invested a lot of time in building your vocabulary and I must congratulate you for this fine effort. What may take pages for me to state that is required to be expressed is stated eloquently by you in just a small paragraphs. I have stopped moaning about my poor English as there is no short cuts to improve on language skills. Till then I shall have the company of your excellent posts.

Friend, you have put me in dilemma to suggest as to which is better-matha tekking _vis a vis_ gurbani practice and living the same. Let us first make a check as to why we do Bani practice. IMHO it is to decipher the message of Guru Sahibaan and then understand it and then execute it in life for our spiritual growth.

By doing Bani we can learn everything that is contained in Nit Nems as well barring few Banis Like Jaap sahib etc., But in essence the knowledge that is contained in Granth sahib is available to one who reads the Granth that is very well documented and the meanings of various metaphors can  readily be cross referenced as many translations are available.

We all seek grace of God by repeating small shabads, doing Nitnems, listening to katha and keertan in Local Gurudwaras as and when the discourse is so organized. In essence we do almost all the things at different points of time. The time spent on each activity may be allocated by the aspirant as per his/her convenience.

All of us must draw some time table to divide our time in these activities. A lazy person like me who visits Gurudwara only once or twice a month is not benefited of presence of sangat as a regular visitor is blessed with as GurBani gives due weightage to doing simran and Ardas in sangat. It is also stated that Gur Sahibs would Give Naam in sangat or through sangat. [I stand corrected where I have erred] A visit to Gurudwara will automatically lead me to pay my utmost respect to  Gur sahibs  by bowing my self or simply stated indulging in Matha tekking. It is inevitable for me. It comes automatically and no extra effort is required.. People generally do not get involved as to what is being done by others as I am concerned with my spiritual growth and mental evolution to the extent it is possible. If Mr. X spends more time in Bani and less time in matha- tekking or visiting Gurudwara , it should be his/her out look. I need not comment upon this. All that is believed is that a rational mix of all the ingredients, stated above, is to be adhered to. Yes, some may like to devote more time on Simran than Bani. It is , as I believe, should be alright till it furthers individuals growth.

It is not necessary that we get  grace when we ask for. 'Budha' asked for it for about two decades.It eluded him all the time and finally he Got it when he did not desire it and He obtained Nirvana.Let us wait for our turns...we keep on receiving it in small packets..

Kindly keep on forgiving me as younger brother as my style of writing is crude and raw. I even do not know as to how to post in a disciplined manner. Wishing you all the Luck in this Journey of Life


My other friends should also send their responses.

Regards


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

Taranjeetji, 

Although english is my first language, and I thank you for your kind compliments, I would give anything to be able to fluently read punjabi as well as you do, given that our life revolves around information written in punjabi, I feel you are in a better place and better suited to glean the information from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji than I am, so out of the two of us, you are the luckier one mundahug

I do not think it is about what is better, I suppose I am having a moan about empty practices, about Matha Tekking, doing path, growing hair, in fact all of the things that a true sikh loves to do, but that are done for the sake of doing only, empty rituals. 

I have to confess that although I consider myself a Sikh of only a year, I am only on the lowest rung of the ladder, I am still attempting to practice Mool Mantra on a daily basis, and have got no further than that, although I feel that this encapsulates the spirit and essence of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

I find that the grace and hukam of God is a lot about my interaction with other people, it is a code of conduct for living, helping, being helped, for not judging (my biggest failing), accepting, and acting in a way that does not provoke anger or conflict, although as a last resort, one must be prepared to fight, and fight hard. 

I wish I had your love, your passion, adoration for the beauty of Bani, but here is where my lack of language skills let me down, I am not prepared to accept anothers english translation, so I have to make do with my own fumbled ones, and my life experience to get the essence, as I said, out of the two of us, I think you have the better deal


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2012)

Harry ji, I understand how it is to not be able to read and understand punjabi text.
It's never too late to learn, believe me. 
I am like you, born and raised british with all things english. Infact, I was one of the very few that was already a generation ahead in the 70's as my father was even born there in UK back in 50.

I have somehow managed to learn how to read punjabi. This has all been self taught although as a youngster I did go to punjabi school but as you know none of us really learnt anything useful in those times.

It's still tough at times, but I keep trying. 
I actually learnt a lot of my gurmukhi from Japji sahib!!!
 You see, at first I would listen to it repeatedly, listen,listen and listen. When listening, I actually paid a great deal of attention to the words and pronunciation. Then eventually, I became very familiar with it, say in about a year.

Then I started to read it from the gutka and it became alot easier, as I would be familiar with a lot of words. All this helped me learn to read punjabi and gurmukhi. With only knowledge of simple alphabet and kiddie vocab!!!

I am still learniing, and enjoy doing the sukhmuni sahib translations line for line and word for word. I do still get a blank when I see huge pieces of text to read in punjabi but it is best done word for word.

If you keep at it, it will become easier. Practice,practice,practice...
Although I am able to read it, sometimes a little slow, I can't write it!!
I wouldn't know where to put Prakash ji's siharis and biharis when it came to it.

But, I find it''s the reading that is easier and more of what I need. I have never come across a moment where I desperately need to be able to write it.

This is just my own method of how I came to learn to read it. When I tell others, especially ones that read and write punjabi very well, they are always shocked that I have sussed the language in this backward way!!

Believe me, it's not rocket science or difficult but involves patience and time.
You do the mool mantar, I would say try memorising a couple of pauris a time. When you know them a lot better, then start trying to read them.
It does sound a little backward, because I learnt the words 1st, then applied them to the text to understand the text, BUT it has worked for the little that I do know.

I do wish though that the small punjabi school classes we had as 'fun' and 'messing about' were better taught and a little more serious. I mean nearly all the muslim kids there learn the arabic and koran from a young age. The punjabi needs to be taught with better methods.

Keep trying, don't give up, it's not as hard as you think.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

Luckyji

thank you brother for your kind words, I will certainly try your method!, I can read, and write, but I cannot seem to get the essence of the words, my mother, when she reads Bani, cries sometimes with the emotion, and I just cannot seem to feel it, same with shabads, the genuine love that sometimes you can feel when reading your posts, or others, evades me, 

I am not in any way concerned about this, Hukam is Hukam, true love takes time, understanding, patience, and faith. I have always been wary of the type that gets down on  his knees to exclaim, 'yes, I have found God, its beautiful, I am saved', after such a beautiful moment, surely its all downhill from there, because you are putting your faith in the moment, and at that time, at that moment, you feel it, some days, like today, I feel a deep connection, and it makes me content, I feel sublime, above things that would normally bother me, able to handle any situation, its my foundation, maybe one day I will experience the bliss of crying while reading Bani, I do not know, it does not seem important, what seems more important is behaving, thinking and acting like a Sikh to the best of my ability and in line with what Bani I know, Mool Mantra. 

Thank you for your encouraging post, I will never give up, it just might take a bit of time, but you know, firm foundations and all that


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## jasbirkaleka (May 23, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*

Majority of the Sikhs have obliterated the thin line between showing respect to SGGS and idol-worship.


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



jasbirkaleka said:


> Majority of the Sikhs have obliterated the thin line between showing respect to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and idol-worship.


 
Do you mean that majority think of it is a ritual like idol worship. So, if you don't do you won't get heard ?
Do some really think like that ?


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## jasbirkaleka (May 23, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Luckysingh said:


> Do you mean that majority think of it is a ritual like idol worship. So, if you don't do you won't get heard ?
> Do some really think like that ?



I firmly believe that majority  Sikhs have become idol worshipers. Taking ritual baths in sarovers, drinking its water to cure diseases, washing gurdwaras with milk and Godavari waters, as for example at Sri Hazur Sahib, the elaborate ceremony of Parkaash and Sakhashan at Harmander Sahib and there  are many other rituals that smack of idol worship.
This all goes against the very basics of teachings of our great Guru, Guru Nanak Dev ji.


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2012)

Thank you for the reply. 
We don't get too much exposure over here to some things you mention.
I know, those things sound a little crazy and far fetched.
If only they just trace and look back at the very beginning of sikhism, at the simple teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they should see all the crazyness that they are committing to!!!

It's funny because I was physically unable to bend down for some time due to a very broken back. I asked a respected elder to take me to the gurdwara, he said that I can't go because I'm unable to matha tek!
When I asked if he was serious, he said that he would have to ask someone at the gurdwara and find out!!!
Anyway, I went and didn't wait for his reply at all, ...that's crazy, I thought and clearly knew that although he was much elder, he was wrong and misinformed.


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## Harry Haller (May 24, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



Luckysingh said:


> Do you mean that majority think of it is a ritual like idol worship. So, if you don't do you won't get heard ?
> Do some really think like that ?



 Luckyji,

It is the nature of people to want, that is why our Islamic friends do so well, they give people what they want, as do the Babas and Deras, people do not mind doing good, provided there is a payback, if the only payback is that the reward is to have more chances to do that good, as per Sikhi, it soon becomes boring to many, no one wants to cultivate their mind, no one wants to explore the philosophy, we live in a quick fix world, you want it, you can have it, you can pay people to do the work for you, you can pray to god for a better life, rather than use Bani to give your brain a workout so you can figure it out for yourself, its not about what you know anymore, its about how religious you are, how in favour with God you are, understanding, study and implementation remain a quaint path, the requests in the Ardass just get more and more


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## chazSingh (May 24, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



simranbir said:


> waheguru g ka khalsa
> waheguru g ki fateh
> 
> me also with u 70% for lip servce as its not that important but not its not a mere formality....... its the emotions of sangat to kiss the dust of guru's feet.
> ...


 
Lovely post 

There is also something mentioned in Gurbani called Dandauth Bandhna. To lie chest against the floor, arms spread out and holding the feet of your guru. I have only seen one person in a gurdwara do this and it struck me deep in my heart.

Matha tek, dandauth bandna, cleaning the shoes of the sangat are all there to show love for god and his creation (which is god also), and to BURN our EGO.

If we can do these things without caring for what others think, we are killing our ego and letting gods love blossom forth.

I can do matha tek quite easily, everyone does it...no embarassment there. Can i do dandauth bandna? can i go into the gurdwara on a busy sunday and start cleaning people shoes? the mind instantly starts to think of excuses, the ego starts holding you back....I need to confront this Ego, understand that it gets in the way of godly love, and do ardaas asking for god to help me overcome it 

God bless you


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## chazSingh (May 24, 2012)

*Re: How important is Matha Tekking*



harry haller said:


> Luckyji,
> 
> It is the nature of people to want, that is why our Islamic friends do so well, they give people what they want, as do the Babas and Deras, people do not mind doing good, provided there is a payback, if the only payback is that the reward is to have more chances to do that good, as per Sikhi, it soon becomes boring to many, no one wants to cultivate their mind, no one wants to explore the philosophy, we live in a quick fix world, you want it, you can have it, you can pay people to do the work for you, you can pray to god for a better life, rather than use Bani to give your brain a workout so you can figure it out for yourself, its not about what you know anymore, its about how religious you are, how in favour with God you are, understanding, study and implementation remain a quaint path, the requests in the Ardass just get more and more


 

Satnaam Harry Ji,

I used to pray a lot, asking for things, help with things, help for my family, a loved on that has health issues. I then realised these were all selfish things...why do i pray for my family, when i can't even pray for a stranger on the street. how can i be so selfless.

Now i do only one ardaas before i do my seva or Simran.

I kindly ask Guru Ji, all saints, bhagats, enlightened souls to come sit with me and meditate...I summon them 
Then i ask god to show me how i can serve him and remember his name (satnaam)...I summon god (he is the only doer, so i ask him to show me)
And then I ask that no matter what happens in my life, no matter if the world is burning all around me, that i may never ever forget his naam.

Does God hear this prayer? i can say with 100% certainty that he does.
Can i explain to you how i can be so certain? probably not, but can we all have this experience....ofcourse we can 

God bless you.


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## Kamala (May 24, 2012)

But bowing down is not a ritual, it's a sign of respect, like when you get ashirvaad.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 24, 2012)

Kamala ji I remember in some other thread you had different views


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## Harry Haller (May 25, 2012)

It all depends whether she has her Sikh or Hindu hat on 

lol lol lol


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## navneetk (May 25, 2012)

interesting thread! Harry ji..in your opinion sikhs shoulod not pray at all. You  should not be surprised to make a note that Ardas is only a formal way of making a prayer but real prayer happens automatically when we do Nitnem of our five banis or for that mattter  entire Granth sahib contains eulogization of God and is a prayer in implicit form wherein you will find Gurus in all humility praying to God for whatever they wanted to receive. I hope you would do better if you really understand the meaning of prayer by integrating bani and it can be really achieved if you realize that for God everything is possible.

The fact that you started this thread is an ample proof that yoiu prayed siliently for the well being of your father, having done this you wanted a validation of the act that you did not do i.e. not getting a formal ardas in Gurudwara. I understand your predicament that you do not want to visit Gurudwara. It is not posssible for a son who loves his parents to not to make a paryer whenh they need it. You are wise enough to know that it is our humble duty to obey our parents. You must have obeyed your mother. No offence meant.

If conclusion arrived at is absurd there should be something wrong with the reasoning or logic and you would do a great service to do a small analysis as to 'where is the lacuna'  in yoiur reasoning.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 25, 2012)

And Now lets move on....
Next question....

How "Important" is listening to kirtan..standing up in ardass..listening to Hukmnama..and MOST IMPORTANT of all...

How "IMPORTANT" is Taking/eating Karrah Parshaad ????
and
How "Important" is walking Backwards out of Darbar sahib...!!japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Kamala (May 25, 2012)

Things change ;p mind sharing my other views?


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## Harry Haller (May 26, 2012)

> interesting thread! Harry ji..in your opinion sikhs shoulod not pray at all. You should not be surprised to make a note that Ardas is only a formal way of making a prayer but real prayer happens automatically when we do Nitnem of our five banis or for that mattter entire Granth sahib contains eulogization of God and is a prayer in implicit form wherein you will find Gurus in all humility praying to God for whatever they wanted to receive. I hope you would do better if you really understand the meaning of prayer by integrating bani and it can be really achieved if you realize that for God everything is possible.



In my view real prayer happens when you implement Bani in your waking life, if you can touch people with Bani, that is the only prayer I am interested in.  I do not believe our Gurus prayed to God for what they wanted to receive, I believe they accepted the will of God completely and without question, why would I go against that?



> The fact that you started this thread is an ample proof that yoiu prayed siliently for the well being of your father, having done this you wanted a validation of the act that you did not do i.e. not getting a formal ardas in Gurudwara. I understand your predicament that you do not want to visit Gurudwara. It is not posssible for a son who loves his parents to not to make a paryer whenh they need it. You are wise enough to know that it is our humble duty to obey our parents. You must have obeyed your mother. No offence meant.



No offence taken, but I would not go into a career in the judicial system if I were you, your definition of ample proof leaves a lot to be desired lol. No, I did not pray silently for my father, the thought never occurred to me, as for feeling guilty that I did not go to Gurudwara, that is the most absurd thing I have ever read, I would not insult my fathers name by including it in the long list of driving students, medical students, people moving house, people starting businesses, people asking for baby boys, etc and also having to pay for it, you seem to have turned Ardas into a magic spell that one pays for, show me a Gurudwara where they have no rituals, no operatic recitations, no air of serious holiness, where the Ardas is a sincere passionate request for nothing other than the strength and wisdom to completely accept the will of God, rather than a bored monotone of names and financial amounts, and I will happily goto that Gurudwara every week..It is our humble duty to obey Creator, it is our humble duty to love and care for our parents as guided my Bani.  

i





> f conclusion arrived at is absurd there should be something wrong with the reasoning or logic and you would do a great service to do a small analysis as to 'where is the lacuna' in yoiur reasoning.



My reasoning comes from what I believe Bani is telling me. And that reasoning is telling me that no amount of rituals and paid for prayers is going to change the course of the future, no amount of Matha Tekking, listening to Kirtan, standing up, sitting down, bending over, is going to help anyone, sure, do it because the joy of sharing with Creator is a wonderful feeling, but if you class yourself as religious because you observe all these things, and nothing more, than you have lost, in my view, the true essence of Sikhism.


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## Ishna (May 26, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> And Now lets move on....
> Next question....
> 
> and MOST IMPORTANT of all...
> ...



Are you nuts??!!  It's like, the MOST IMPORTANT THING, no question about it!!!  icecreamkaur

But seriously...


Question:  People who have Babaji in their homes, do they have a golak as well??


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## Ishna (May 26, 2012)

harry haller said:


> And that reasoning is telling me that no amount of rituals and paid for prayers is going to change the course of the future, no amount of Matha Tekking, listening to Kirtan, standing up, sitting down, bending over, is going to help anyone, sure, do it because the joy of sharing with Creator is a wonderful feeling, but if you class yourself as religious because you observe all these things, and nothing more, than you have lost, in my view, the true essence of Sikhism.



Nailed it brother.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 26, 2012)

Because SIKHS believe in HUKM....and HUKM doesnt change....HE makes all HUKM.Period.
Even when a SIKH has the ability to see into the Future..HUKM still holds firm...In Guru Arjun jis time there was a sikh who wanted to learn about HUKM..Guru ji sent him to Bhai ferus house..on arrival he found preparations going on for a wedding...on asking about the whereabouts of Bhai feru ji..he was told he was in a room...and upon entering the room he was shocked to discover that Bahi feru was preparing a Kaffan. For who is that ? OH its for my son who's getting married tomorrow and who will then die returning home form his wedding...and what are you doing to alter that ?? NOTHING..I ma preparing to follow HUKM. and it came to pass that exactly that happened..first Bhai feru attended the wedding of his only son..was happy along with everyone else...and then coming back home the son died suddenly...and Bhai feru used the kaffan he had already prepared..he wasnt unduly happy or unduly sad..as its all in HIS HUKM.

Should Bhai feru had "prayed" for his sons life to be extended ?? For a long happy married life ?? upset the HUKM ?? A SIKH always lives life in SHUKRANNA..thanksgiving ONLY.....following HUKM all the way...Worldly prayers for riches..beautiful wives or 72 virgins after death..heavens, or avoiding hells..etc etc..have no place in TRUE GURMATT because HE PROVIDES the BEST always...ALWAYS...!! Bin bollian sabh kich jaanta..He KNOWS !! ALWAYS whats BEST....the Begging prayer is superflous...SHUKRANNA always.


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## Archived_member15 (May 26, 2012)

My dear brother Harry Haller ji peacesignkaur

On another forum, a Christian forum, a few years ago I read a short post by a fellow Catholic which I think was very powerful and had a really impact on my spiritual formation. In it, he also quoted the writings of a Catholic mystic - John Ruysbroeck - to back up what he was saying, and he said precisely what you have just said brother, here is his post: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To my mind, and that of my dying mother, there is more to prayer than supplication. For some, prayer is training the mind to be receptive to grace and to God. My mother's cancer will not be prayed away, but she can draw closer to God through prayer while she is still alive. As I say, for some prayer is about the union with God in our inner lives, not begging a Big Santa for favours or presents. My mother's faith has increased since being diagnosed as terminal - and she knows the cancer isn't going away, miraculously or otherwise.


"...There we will abide—unified, empty, and imageless—raised up through love to the open bareness of our mind, for when we transcend all things in love and die to all rational observations in a dark state of unknowing, we become transformed through the working of the eternal Word, who is an image of the Father. In the empty being of our spirit we receive an incomprehensible resplendence which envelops and pervades us in the same way that the air is pervaded by the light of the sun. This resplendence is nothing other than an act of gazing and seeing which has no ground: What we are is what we see, and what we see is what we are, for our mind, our life, and our very being are raised up in a state of oneness and united with the truth that is God himself. In this simple act of seeing we are therefore one life and one spirit with God. This is what I call a contemplative life. When we cleave to God in love we are practicing what is called the better part, but when we gaze at our superessential being in the way just described we possess God whole and entire...."

_*- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1294-1381)* __– The Sparkling Stone quoted from The Spiritual Espousals and other works [Paulist Press, Wiseman, James A. trans. p 171]_


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 26, 2012)

yes Brother Vouthon Ji..you have got it right...Prayer is to draw us CLOSER to HIM..not attempts at "solving" our own man made problems...like wanting badly to excel when spent all time discoing and clubbing..ha ha..or lounging on the sofa watching tv and wanting to posses a mansion and a Ferrari..he he...or wishing for six-ab body but drinking like a fish 24/7...he he....prayers dont bring Feraris or cure cancers..GURBANI makes this amply clear (but there are many who have eyes but dont want to see..have ears but dont want to hear..have TONGUES...BUT DONT WANT TO KEEP SILENT !!!! ). None of the Gurus have ever mentioned that such and such a shabad can cure cancer..make an amputated foot grow back..BUT ALL the shabads do talk about the Longing to MEET Him..meet the Beloved..Union with the Creator..the Bride/groom shabads..the Laavann are all essentially about the longing to be closer to Him....
Sikhism also has its share of fake Snake Oil merchants..the Babas and derawadees..who market certain shabads as cure-all...and make tons of money off gullible fools who buy their fake advertising gimmicks..


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## BhagatSingh (May 26, 2012)

Harry ji, 



> I do not play games with Guruji, if I were to see him, of course I would bow to him as I bow to my mother or father, but to elevate this act to the point of importance, to say it there is a point to it, to even suggest it is Sikhi, in my view is wrong, there is nothing Sikhi about bowing, it is pure respect and an expression of heartfelt love.



The tradition of bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji comes from Guru Gobind Singh ji. Who bowed down to it after placing before it a few Paise. Therefore, it is quite "Sikhi" to bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Speaking about bowing.
 First there is bowing. Most people never get past this stage, they just don't see the value of exploring further. They are too concerned with their material possessions and worldly things to care about the content. 

Next there is attention to content, a few who got past the first stage end up here. Great! but most get stuck here. They don't realize this is just a stage in development. The content is just a sophisticated material and worldly thing. They see further than the previous group of people but not far enough. Only a few see further and move forward. 

Finally we find bowing again, and only bowing, nothing else, no content, there maybe some but not much, kind of like the first stage but different in an unexplainable way, the mind does a 360. A few get to this, and then they bow and bow and bow...

Cheers

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਬੰਦਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਮਰਥ ॥
डंडउति बंदन अनिक बार सरब कला समरथ ॥
Dand▫uṯ banḏan anik bār sarab kalā samrath.
I bow down, and fall to the ground in humble adoration, countless times, to the All-powerful Lord, who possesses all powers.

ਡੋਲਨ ਤੇ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ ਕਰਿ ਹਥ ॥੧॥
डोलन ते राखहु प्रभू नानक दे करि हथ ॥१॥
Dolan ṯe rākẖo parabẖū Nānak ḏe kar hath. ||1||
Please protect me, and save me from wandering, God. Reach out and give Nanak Your Hand. ||1||
256

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
रागु गउड़ी पूरबी महला ४ ॥
Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4.
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Fourth Mehl:

ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari▫ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda he.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥
पूरबि लिखत लिखे गुरु पाइआ मनि हरि लिव मंडल मंडा हे ॥१॥
Pūrab likẖaṯ likẖe gur pā▫i▫ā man har liv mandal mandā he. ||1||
By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. ||1||

ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
करि साधू अंजुली पुनु वडा हे ॥
Kar sāḏẖū anjulī pun vadā he.
Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit.

ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡਉਤ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
करि डंडउत पुनु वडा हे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kar dand▫uṯ pun vadā he. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Bow down before Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. ||1||Pause||
page 13



Ishna said:


> Harry ji
> 
> I want to give you the example of when I first started going to Gurdwara Sahib, and I was so nervous I would get to darbar sahib very early so no one would see me.  One morning, before anyone else was in there, a Singh came in and did the most elabourate matha tek I've ever seen to date - he didn't just bow, he layed down on his stomach!  I would like to say it was a genuine matha tek, but I recall he had a friend with him at the time.  So even that may have just been for the friend's benefit.  But who am I to judge?



Called a dandaut ਡੰਡਉਤ 0 Full submission. Try it, it floors your ego. pun intended


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## Harry Haller (May 27, 2012)

BhagatSinghji

I should fully submit my mind first, so my body expresses this submission surely, rather than concentrate on the physical expression alone, what is the point of physical submission?

To those who have submitted mind and body, I have only the fullest admiration.


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## Ishna (May 27, 2012)

Brother, you could liken Matha Tekna to daily Nitnem.  I think you can apply this shabad exactly to your predicament:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37828-nitnaym-the-daily-grind-2.html#post158929 

Like a student who wants to be a concert pianist wondering why he should bother learning his scales when he would rather be learning Mozart.

On the one hand Sikhs need to be mindful of Guru Nanak's essential teaching against superstition and ritualism, but does that mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

If we know the deeper meaning and value of a ritual act, and use it to further our devotion and connection to Guru, and can recognise when a ritual behaviour becomes the *end* instead of the *means*, then why not go for it?


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## Ishna (May 27, 2012)

Matha tekna is a physical expression of this sort sentiment:

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਸਲੋਕੁ  ॥ 
Salok. 
Shalok: 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਡੰਡਉਤਿ  ਬੰਦਨ  ਅਨਿਕ  ਬਾਰ  ਸਰਬ  ਕਲਾ  ਸਮਰਥ  ॥ 
Dand▫uṯ banḏan anik bār sarab kalā samrath. 
I bow down, and fall to the ground in humble adoration, countless times, to the All-powerful Lord, who possesses all powers. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਡੋਲਨ  ਤੇ  ਰਾਖਹੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਦੇ  ਕਰਿ  ਹਥ  ॥੧॥ 
Dolan ṯe rākẖo parabẖū Nānak ḏe kar hath. ||1|| 
Please protect me, and save me from wandering, God. Reach out and give Nanak Your Hand. ||1|| 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## BhagatSingh (May 27, 2012)

> BhagatSinghji
> 
> I should fully submit my mind first, so my body expresses this submission surely, rather than concentrate on the physical expression alone, what is the point of physical submission?
> 
> ...


Yes Harry ji, the mind and body are quite related. I can hug someone and feel more love for them than if I sat back and contemplated love for them. Both work and together they are even more powerful. Look for yourself, you will see how they both work. Try it, go hug a stranger or two if that's too much of a ritual to ask for  

Hahah you know this is all very amusing to me. If guru sahib had said back in 15th century, "Ok guys today we'll all go out and hug people. This will allow us to see manas ki jaat sabhaai ekai pehchanbo". Then today, you would find Sikhs saying "well Guru Nanak rejected rituals, and I don't have to hug, I can just hug them in my mind. Some people hug and they still hate bla bla bla". Now you could do that but you have been gifted two machines, two tools. The mind and the body. Using both is better than using one or the other.

Wait! Isn't doing things in the mind a ritual? or is that somehow more special because it happens to be in the mind?

*Recognize the mind and body to be one.* As you do your daily ritual, do it as if your mind and body were one. I know it does not feel that way but that is just limited perception that we are all gifted with. Do report back with your experiences if you try it for at least a few months.

You learn to paint by painting. The painting is the means to an end but the end is what? The end is more painting. But through this process something has changed, yes? Rembrant was painting when he was say 8 (ignorant), and was still painting in the old age (wise). It's the same with ritual. If you want to be a Sikh stick to the traditional Sikh rituals and just do them. Now of course, you don't have to do them but then if you reject those rituals then expect to be called a non-Sikh or even an atheist, that's just how it is (traditionally in India only the atheist philosophical schools in Hinduism rejected religious rituals hence why some Sikhs will just call you an atheist; Sikhs did NOT btw). 

You don't have to do a particular ritual, you can certainly have your own ritual. Last summer I would either wake up at 6 or more often stay up until 6-7 am and go out in the balcony and feel the cold, hard wood with my bare feet. and I looked at cats around my house, trying to hunt birds and squirrels. Listened to the birds and that was it, that was the ritual.

Through too much contemplation you lose touch with the body, when you recognize that, it's time to go back and get in touch.

PS the point of physical submission is physical submission.


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## Harry Haller (May 28, 2012)

Bhagat Singhji

I just wrote you a fantastic reply with just the right amount of wit, sarcasm and fact, but unfortunately I just lost it, so you will have to make do with this condensed one. 

Personal rituals I have lots of, I cannot eat unless I am reading, I always Matha Tek my parents if I have not seen them for longer than a month, I would never own a front wheel drive car, I eat cheesy poofs with a spoon, my dad and brother have to sit either side of me and pin me down come parshad time, due to my aversion to getting buttery hands, as I tend to make a run for it, so rituals, I am not averse to a few rituals of my own. 

However we are talking about religious rituals, and they are very dangerous, it is religious rituals that have turned the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji into a magical cure all, to be blessed by such magic is the name of the game, we play the game because on the whole, we want something, and we believe showing respect or love will assist us in obtaining such. When we respect or love without any wish of gain, that is true love and respect and to experience that is beautiful, just as religion without ritual is beautiful, but let ritual seep into religion, and people cannot see the difference between parroting Bani and understanding and living it, and that is the problem we have in Sikhism today, made worse by people  lauding all the practices that Guru Nanakji tried so hard to show to be the empty practices that they are kudihug

P.S. I am a big hairy bear of a man, I hug everyone whether they wish to be hugged or not,


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 28, 2012)

> I just wrote you a fantastic reply with just the right amount of wit, sarcasm and fact


 
So did I but I forgot to put computor on,so this will have to do.


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## Harry Haller (May 28, 2012)

you need to brush up on your rituals spji lol lol lol


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## Taranjeet singh (May 28, 2012)

Harry ji,

I tend to agree with you that, till one has love of Guru and fear of Lord/Akaal, bowing before the Guru Granth sahib is merely a ritual and may be avoided as no useful purpose would be served without having this sort of feeling or emotional attachment.

*We are also told that*:

1. *Bani Nirankaar hai* and
2. *Pothi Parmeshwar ka Thaan.*[ang 1226-3]

Both these statements indicate that Guru Granth Sahib is manifestation of Akaal itself. Even if one has not yet developed the love of Guru/Lord and respect for the same, it would still make some sense in Matha Tekking. However, the decision to do or not to do is always subjective and may be governed by hosts of other factors. 

Hope you agree with this.


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## Harry Haller (May 28, 2012)

Taranjeetji

I think Matha Tekking has many many benefits, showing of respect, surrendering ego, I find the concept of going to see Babaji, Matha Tekking, and then going immediately downstairs pointless, that is how this argument actually started. 



> Both these statements indicate that Guru Granth Sahib is manifestation of Akaal itself.



I have always thought the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the pathway to Akaal, rather than a manifestation. As a manifestation it can be physically worshipped, which in my view is against the spirit of Sikhism, no Gurus were ever worshipped, and no Guru claimed to be a manifestation of Akaal, so why would the eleventh be any different,  kaurhug


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## Taranjeet singh (May 28, 2012)

Harry ji,

Since Bani[Granth] tells , instructs, guides us to Akaal and it and the seat of Lord as stated above, it means that we are bowing to Akaal Purukh . Matha Tekking is to Akaal as well. If one has a love for Guru that is stated it to be too essential for spiritual progress dual purpose is served. If I do not bow in front of Akaal -who is left before whom I should bow.?

I would not bow before any one.

In any case It would again a subjective decision. Guru never asked for any matha tekking but I presume, it must have continued even during their life times as well. Same tradition is in flow right now as well. It is hard to break traditions especially when only some benefits is to flow out of it or ,at least, there is no harm

[PS...It is time for lunch here] I take a break.


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## Harry Haller (May 28, 2012)

Taranjitji

We are now, I believe,  getting to the actual crux of the problem. Firstly, I will state again, I am not averse to Matha Tekking, when I first wrote this post, what vexed me was that my host sincerely believed I had shown disrespect by not going upstairs and having a quick Matha Tek, and could not understand why I would not just take a few minutes to rush upstairs for 'Babajis blessing', however, do I believe I will be any more blessed by Matha Tekking, No , I do not, and I stated that to go upstairs just for what amounts to no more than protocol, was wrong. Let us say that my grandfather was upstairs, that would be different, I would do so to make my parents and my grandfather happy, as such would indeed make them happy, but the personalisation of the written Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has affected people so greatly, they are more concerned with the happiness of the bound volume over the happiness of themselves if they would only read it and stop concentrating on the 'living Guru' facet. side by side they compliment each other, if Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is viewed as a living Guru seated in front of you and explaining life to you, then that , in my view, is the message. If however you sit in front of Guruji and try and show him how religious you are and basically suck up to him, then that is the wrong message, again in my view. 

There is a line between respect and worship, I bow before anyone worthy, I worship only Creator


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## sabnakeerenka (Aug 27, 2012)

I know I'm delayed, but this might help:

Katha By Bhai Sukha Singh jee On Matha Ttekna      - YouTube


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## Harry Haller (Aug 28, 2012)

very very good, mundahug


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## itsmaneet (Aug 28, 2012)

When anyone bows his head towards the GURU that means surrendering to the GURU .... both physically & mentally.


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## Archived_Member16 (Aug 28, 2012)

*To me "Matha Tekna" to Guru Ji means you are surrendering your body, mind & soul to the Guru Ji ( with total FAITH & devotion ) for HIS  protection, blessings, unconditional love & direction and are willing to accept  and live within HIS WILL.*


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## jasbirkaleka (Jun 10, 2019)

Soul_jyot said:


> *To me "Matha Tekna" to Guru Ji means you are surrendering your body, mind & soul to the Guru Ji ( with total FAITH & devotion ) for HIS  protection, blessings, unconditional love & direction and are willing to accept  and live within HIS WILL.*



Majority of the people go through this ritual of "Matha Tekna" because of fear psychosis or to get their wishes fulfilled.


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## Amahajan (Jun 21, 2019)

It is a human gesture to show respect to someone. It is natural to matha tek in front of Baba ji of we respect him. It's like making your mind beleive that be in your limits and follow Baba hi.
But there is no point in teking matha if one disrespect Baba ji!

Even if one does not follow his teachings but do respect the feelings of others or respect Baba ji, he would naturally Tek his matha.


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