# Some Questions About 5Ks



## Ishna (Jan 10, 2011)

_Preface: I have some random questions: 1. Where does an amritdhari woman who doesn't wear a dastaar keep her kangha? 2. Do regular boxer shorts count as kacchera?  Must they have a draw-string?  What is the purpose and history of kacchera?
_ 

Greetings, 

I have some random questions: 

1. Where does an amritdhari woman who doesn't wear a dastaar keep her kangha? 

2. Do regular boxer shorts count as kacchera?  Must they have a draw-string?  What is the purpose and history of kacchera?

3. What is the sangat's view of showering in kacchera and taking one leg out of wet kacchera and putting it into dry kacchera so as to always be wearing them?  How on earth is this supposed to work for women... like... all of the time... you know...?

Random questions which have been floating around in my head for a while.

Ishna


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 10, 2011)

1. They usually do a bun on the back of their head. Stick the kangha in from the top and tie the string around the bun.(You could tie the string around the kangha, parallel to its teeth)

I'd won't answer the other two. All I will say is that the 5K's were for practical reasons and were meant to create a sense of duty, a sense of duty you get from wearing a uniform.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Well I WILL answer the remaining 2 .

1. The Traditional Kachhera is of a special DESIGN that makes it virtually impossible to show any "immodesty" no matter what the position. IF correctly sewed and design is followed, the ring around the thigh fits so well the leg can be carried as high as possible but nothing will show ( that which shouldnt be shown). Even UPSIDE DOWN !! And the multiple folds keep everything under cover. In the olden days 9 my prents)..the kachera or the salwaar..would need an entire length of DRYING STRING all by themsleves. Once my dad's kachera flew over the fence due to a strong wind and the neighbour brought it back to our doorstep..saying..Your dad's MOTOR CYCLE COVER fell into my compound !! Thats how BIG those kacheras used to be...but then those days men didnt wear pants to office..and a large bulge of folded cloth inside a tight jeans can be pretty difficult to accomodate...so modern kacheras are also lighter..and less bulky !!

2. The Naala..draw string..is optional ( the Lazy man/woman's rubber band..etc can be used IF one cannot/doesnt wnat to//learn the KNOT tying or is always in a HURRY !! Nothing offends Maryada here..(IMHO anyway )...

3. The Third...one leg in and one leg in.."maryada" stems from being ALWAYS PREPARED !!....even in the BATHROOM. Battle Stations 24/7. Something like what the Firemen do when the Alarm rings...they have special metal poles they use to shinny down form the upper floors...same thing here...a SIKH with a WET Kachera is VUNERABLE....and one who has Completely REMOVED a wet one and hasnt yet changed to a dry one is asking for trouble IF the ALARM SOUNDS !!! RIGHT ?? Hnece the rule..One leg in..one leg OUT !! MINIMUM EXPOSURE to being UNPREPARED to EXIT the Bath at a split seconds notice.
Some diehards to this rule..even have a SPARE  Kachera strapped to a DEAD SIKH inside the Kaffan Wrapping before the body is cremated ( presemuably so he wont be caught with a wet kachera in that place ??..How the kacheras reach that place..dont ask me..i havent been there yet ......all those I saw..burned right at the cremation ground together with the body, kirpan and all).

So its your choice...how far you can go....or want to go...its up to YOU.


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## Ishna (Jan 11, 2011)

Why do you need to cover your head while changing underpants?

Also, if the emphasis is on being prepared all the time, how does one get a chance to even wash their hair then?  Your home could be invaded at the moment you get the shampoo in!

And I think it would take me longer to take one leg out of wet kacchera, put in dry kacchera, take other leg out of wet kacchera and put on dry kacchera instead of just taking wet ones off and putting dry ones on.  I'm not sure I'll get far running down the street with one leg in a wet pair and one leg in a dry pair either.  Maybe it's something to do with tying them?  They don't sound like any kind of garment I'm familiar with so maybe I just don't understand because I can't picture it in my mind.

I understand the concept of being always prepared, but I'm not sure I see the logical application of the wet/dry kacchera.

And why don't any women who wear kacchera reply about these topics?  I've asked it on other forums and received similar responses thus far... no females!

Ishna


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Why do you need to cover your head while changing underpants?
> 
> Also, if the emphasis is on being prepared all the time, how does one get a chance to even wash their hair then?  Your home could be invaded at the moment you get the shampoo in!
> 
> ...



Ishna ji

Before we go on with your questions, forgive me, could we wait for Bahadur S ji to respond to my question, as a forum management matter. I also ask the indulgence of forum members, leaders and mentors to hold off with their replies for a time. Only because it would create something of a circus and  be a waste of intellect to spend time discussing a matter that might be a trolling operation. 


Thanks.

Bahadur S ji, what is the source of your information? The SRM has no provision about head covering when changing any garments, kechera included. Thanks for your reply.


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2011)

Well there was no reply to my request for a source or reference to this question 


> In respect to question number 3 it is also necessary to cover your head while changing your Kachera



So I suppose we can go ahead with the discussion. Thanks all for your patience.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 11, 2011)

Ishna ji I will provide my input for your perusal based on my understanding.

Why do you need to cover your head while changing underpants?  
   >>> Already addressed by a male member (not required per Sikh Rehat Maryada).
   >>> I know my hair were silky long grinningkudi: ) and after washing I used to loosely tie these in a knot before doing the rest of Ishnan.  However, needs confirmation from female.

Also, if the emphasis is on being prepared all the time, how does one get a chance to even wash their hair then? Your home could be invaded at the moment you get the shampoo in!
   >>> You are allowed to wash your hair and you will fight even with the unlucky chance of partially rinsed hair.  Highly unlikely but we are talking attacks and self-preservation, do or die.swordfight

And I think it would take me longer to take one leg out of wet kacchera, put in dry kacchera, take other leg out of wet kacchera and put on dry kacchera instead of just taking wet ones off and putting dry ones on. I'm not sure I'll get far running down the street with one leg in a wet pair and one leg in a dry pair either. Maybe it's something to do with tying them? They don't sound like any kind of garment I'm familiar with so maybe I just don't understand because I can't picture it in my mind.
   >>> Ishna ji the contexts I remember that applied to both males and females were as follows and these are from at least 45 years ago so I stand corrected if I make a mistake
   >>> 1.  Tiar bar Tiar  .... Ready as you can be
   >>> 2.  Singh's and Kaur's don't run away, they fight.swordfight
   >>> 3.  If it so happens that you die, your modesty will be protected and the scenarios mentioned were dead bodies floating in the rivers, and the dress will ensure as much modesty and respect for the living and deceased as much as possible

I understand the concept of being always prepared, but I'm not sure I see the logical application of the wet/dry kacchera.  (see above)

And why don't any women who wear kacchera reply about these topics? I've asked it on other forums and received similar responses thus far... no females!
     >>> I sincerely wish they would.

Hope it is of some value and its only my understanding.  There are perhaps lot more experienced males and females at SPN.

I saw your post on Australian rains/floods and it looked pretty bad out there.  Wishing things will get better without much further destruction.

Sat Sri Akal.peacesign

PS:  Mai Harinder Kaur ji if you please create a smiley of Kaur's fighting and Singh's and Kaur's fighting possible enemies.  Only if you can.  You seem so blessed with the talent.


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## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2011)

Ishna ji

The coast seems to be clear now, and so let me make a wild guess in reply to your question that seems to go unanswered.



> And why don't any women who wear kacchera reply about these topics? I've asked it on other forums and received similar responses thus far... no females!



The times "they are a-changing" ... but, most people, men and women, are reluctant to discuss their undergarments on the Internet where the potential audience is the size of the Internet audience itself. It is a matter of personal boundaries and privacy. And we already have evidence right on this thread of how even the most tempered explanations can be greeted with lame attempts at humor. The effect is somewhat toxic. Why endure it?

This is in part a generational difference. It is my own personal policy never to discuss kesh or kechera here except in the most general terms.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 12, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Greetings
> 
> I have some random questions:
> 
> ...


Ishna ji I had some additional thoughts if these help.

I thought and I asked myself that I used to have such questions in my early sikhi life too.  One of the lines of thought being transgressions from Sikh Rehat Maryada and personal and panthic consequences.

I actually thought of something that I want to share in terms of differences between "Rehats" and "Kurehats" in the order of 5 K's and the 4 taboos.  

(see your post, http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gener...g-sikhi-becoming-sikh-what-am.html#post140262)

What I remember clearly was that for any indiscretions the following was the path taken,

*Rehats (5 K's):  *

For any indiscretion you are basically on your own.  You may want to address the issue with genuine honesty between yourself and your conscience.  It is not really a Sangat or panthic matter but rather of personal nature.

Hence the word "should" is used versus "shall" or "must".

Hence you are as capable of the correct practical answer keeping in light the Sikh Rehat Maryada as the Gold Standard, so to say.

There is absolutely no issue about asking others for their thoughts though but it should not lead to practical hangups for you.

*Kurehats (4 taboos) in your post:   *

The issue is one of breaking clear vows or oath you take during baptization in front of witnessing panj pyaree and hence the loss of this trust and oath requires renewal and addressing.

_Sikhism in a nutshell is quite practical and flexible but there are lot of nutty people around to drive others nuts if you let them._ 

Hope it is of some value.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jan 13, 2011)

Dear Isha Ji,

wjkk,wjkf.

I appreciate your floating questions about Kangha and Kachhera.  S. Bhagat Singh jI has answered your first question on women not wearng dastrar and keeping Kangha in our Keshas tying a thread around bun parallel to the teeth of Kangha.  

For the Kachera, the boxer's shorts are not kachhera.  You see the strings are necessary for it to be called as Kachhera, because the real purpose of Kachiera is to be symbol strong character.  The boxer's short while worn can  be revealing and when the kachhera is designed with breaches ( special design which narrow down the lower portion  and is more protective of our private parts when worn even without a pyjama or pants.   The discipline of 5 Ks is universal and applicable at all places, countries and times.


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## Ishna (Jan 13, 2011)

Thank you to everyone for your responses.

Thanks Bhagat Singh ji for addressing my kangha curiosity, Gyani ji and Tejinder Singh ji for explaining to me the importance of kacchera in protecting modesty, and Ambarsaria ji and spnadmin ji for the reality checks!!!

I know they seem like silly questions, I don't know why I'm so curious about the nit-picky details.  A method of procrastination perhaps.

Ishna


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## gurbanicd (Jan 15, 2011)

Ishna said:


> _Preface: I have some random questions: 1. Where does an amritdhari woman who doesn't wear a dastaar keep her kangha? 2. Do regular boxer shorts count as kacchera?  Must they have a draw-string?  What is the purpose and history of kacchera?
> _
> 
> Greetings,
> ...



I appreciate and thank your floating questions about Kangha and Kachhera. 

The kesas kra,kacchera.kangha kirpan.

The bun, left and right. dry and wet, all these are equivalent to JANEO <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->jnyau 
Put a good dress in whatever way it is simply not going to solve the problem of our character and habits.

But  in all this we forget the core point of NAAM.Are we becoming a better  person and going near to almighty. Are we becoming a person with less  vices to be useful to ourselves and society as a whole.

what is happening  is that we will always keep concentrating on this left and right, wet and dry sometime even not possible to handle.

It is a topic which need to be discussed by the people in dharm parchar removing all the confusions, so that many people because of this hesitate to fully involved in the sikhism

.these things are only part of sikhism and if need arises can be discussed by the dharm parchar people according to the needs. This is my personal view point.

Giving a uniform of police man to anon deserving person brings more problem than solution.

Dress as well as required criteria both are important.

we are so strict that we prefer to move with full hair fixer on the rainy days which as per my experience is almost impossible to handle without a personal vehicle.

Kirpan size in planes is also one topic.


the discussion is great.I would request for more advise on above


bhulan chukan di khima 
bhula chukan di khima


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 15, 2011)

gurbanicd said:


> But  in all this we forget the core point of NAAM.Are we becoming a better  person and going near to almighty. Are we becoming a person with less  vices to be useful to ourselves and society as a whole.
> [/COLOR]



 My point exactly. I wonder if following any of these rules has anything at all to do with God. Any rules that are followed must have a strong symbolic and logical basis otherwise they are just empty and meaningless. 

It is easy to dress a certain way but constantly trying to better oneself and establish a stronger relationship with the truth are much more important. 

Wjkk wjkf


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