# Who Is This Creator Who Cares For Us In Such Grand Fashion?



## Harry Haller (Feb 28, 2016)

This is a line from another thread, but its a good question, my own feeling is that this Creator is the sum of Creation, although I would probably dispute the caring bit, slightly Abrahamic, slightly Vedic, Creator cared by giving us a brain, what else is there to do? I do not believe Creator is going to bend the laws of physics or chemistry because of this 'care' but I do believe this 'care' resulted in a brain, and the ability to be self aware.

So, assuming the Creator does not care, and taken that the meaning of life, to me anyway, is to see Creator in everything, then Sikhism is a life of service, not ritual, not hiding away in contemplation, but service, without fear, without desire, want, need, just getting out there and doing what needs to be done, always in chardi kala, do we need anyone to care for us? Is the essence of Creator a big caring cloud of love that loves us? or is the essence of Creator to constantly learn, absorb knowledge, share this learning, encourage others, lift people up, in which case, my question would be, 'who is this Creator who drives us in such a grand fashion'


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 28, 2016)

I'll jump in and give everyone a chance to crucify me or, if more Sassenach-inclined, to hang, draw, and quarter me. This Creator is difficult to talk about and I don't pretend to fathom It. I am panentheistic, that is I believe the Creator is all-pervading and bigger than Its Creation. It has an existence apart from, outside of Its Creation, outside the Multiverse or Multiverses. I'm not sure what that means, exactly, but I think that's what I believe most of the time.

I believe this Creator, One Creator, designed the Universe we inhabit to run according to principles that we call Natural Law. When we attempt to understand how these Natural Laws work, we call it science, which I think is pretty cool. I define "Miracles" as the intervention of the One into the Universe, temporarily suspending Natural Law for its own purposes. This seems like cheating and I believe that while the One may play dice with the Universe, It doesn't cheat, hence, no miracles in the sense that I define them.

So what has this Creator to do with me personally? Hmmm, let me think. It gave me a little piece of Itself, a wee bit of Its light - which I call my soul -  from whence springs my consciousness. I know I am skimming lightly over the top of some very deep theological stuff here, but I am, after all, merely an aging, slightly hippie (but not New Age), garden variety SRM following Sikh woman who maintains a certain level of chardi kala (in spite of not believing in miracles). And, oh, yeah, The One, The Creator, Waheguru, has gifted me with a sense of humor that may well get me killed someday, but in the meantime, makes life livable. What more could I possibly ask for?

This is the really easy stuff. Beware, next time I may start quoting Gurbani and then things will get really deep.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 28, 2016)

I think if we adopted the attitude of Creator, as outlined in Mool mantra, things would make a lot more sense than they do,


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 28, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I think if we adopted the attitude of Creator, as outlined in Mool mantra, things would make a lot more sense than they do,


Without a doubt.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Feb 28, 2016)

Here is how I understand things:

There really only is ONE thing in existence... Creator.
All of what we perceive as solid and real, really isn't. It's just energy vibrating slow enough to manifest. If you look deep enough into the makeup of everything you will see that the 'particles' that make up everything (including our brains) seemingly disappear into nothingness at random.
The driving force of the above seems to be consciousness. A mere conscious observer determines whether or not the particle behaves as a solid particle of matter - or merely a wave (waves are not substance themselves). This truth has been proven many times over by Quantum Physics and can be re-created.
So when we remove all this matter (because EVERY ATOM contains these basic particles which require a conscious observer to exist as something solid) then what do we have? Consciousness is the only 'real' thing.
Now I am not talking about 'wakefulness' in a physical sense. Because that's how some on here have tried to equate consciousness before. Instead I am talking about the observer - the experiencer behind every physical being. (and within everything).  It's not the act of being physically awake that affected the experiments but the act of observation / knowing. One can be asleep, or unconscious but still observing (some other realm). 
So the universe is not the solid reality we think it is, and the only REAL thing we can latch on to is the 'observer'. 
This Observer IS THE CREATOR.  And is INSIDE everyone and everything. 
Remove the Ego, and the false identity you have gained through this life as the character you are now playing. What remains - that consciousness - IS the Creator.

A way to understand this: 
Tonight I dream I am a doctor trying to save a patients life. Inside the dream, my consciousness is the Doctor right? But I have no idea I exist as anything different than the doctor. It's a character I am playing. If I never woke up I would never realize I was Harkiran Kaur. But when I wake up in the morning, I realize not only was the doctor just a character I was playing, but so was that patient!!! They were BOTH characters WITHIN me! My own mind / dream / controlled the actions of BOTH even though I was only focused on the doctor character at the time.  This world has been likened to a dream in Gurbani. And each of us characters that the ONE Creator is playing. We have all forgotten our true identities, becoming too immersed in the characters. 

There is only ONE of us here.... there only ever was ONE.  (read shabad on Ang 736 likening it to a play where Creator is both director of the play AND all the characters.)


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## broken (Feb 28, 2016)

Personally, I think he's a bit of a show-off. If it wasn't such a "Grand Fashion" would there be such silliness in nature? Would there be such attention to detail? 

Let's get over ourselves.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 29, 2016)

Most definitely Creator ji has a raucous sense of humor and an incredible sense of the ridiculous...


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## Harry Haller (Feb 29, 2016)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> Most definitely Creator ji has a raucous sense of humor and an incredible sense of the ridiculous...



of course he has, someone has to explain my ex wife


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 29, 2016)

harry haller said:


> of course he has, someone has to explain my ex wife


Harry, you are feeling hurt and bleeding and it gets better, it really does (if you let it). I was married to an alcoholic for 22 years and when he at last succeeded in drinking himself to death, my reaction was total relief to be rid of him. Nonetheless his ghost hung around until I changed my residence. It has now been nearly 5 years and I rarely think of him until someone brings up their ex. 

Yes, Creator ji has a sense of humor and, no, I don't always get the joke. Remember the Robert Frost poem.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 29, 2016)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> Harry, you are feeling hurt and bleeding and it gets better, it really does



naaah, I am feeling liberated and free! I feel like Braveheart! FREEEEDOM!!

err sorry back to topic


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 29, 2016)

Creator creates self caring everything and as part of that it enables the ability to live in consonance, not live in consonance and be swatted like a fly (eventually and it may take generations or a moment) at the time of not your choosing or ignore all that and let it be as there really is no difference of us as part of one and one being part of us and it all being one.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (Mar 1, 2016)

harry haller said:


> This is a line from another thread, but its a good question, my own feeling is that this Creator is the sum of Creation, although I would probably dispute the caring bit, slightly Abrahamic, slightly Vedic, Creator cared by giving us a brain, what else is there to do? I do not believe Creator is going to bend the laws of physics or chemistry because of this 'care' but I do believe this 'care' resulted in a brain, and the ability to be self aware.
> 
> So, assuming the Creator does not care, and taken that the meaning of life, to me anyway, is to see Creator in everything, then Sikhism is a life of service, not ritual, not hiding away in contemplation, but service, without fear, without desire, want, need, just getting out there and doing what needs to be done, always in chardi kala, do we need anyone to care for us? Is the essence of Creator a big caring cloud of love that loves us? or is the essence of Creator to constantly learn, absorb knowledge, share this learning, encourage others, lift people up, in which case, my question would be, 'who is this Creator who drives us in such a grand fashion'



if, as you say, the creator wants you to see the creator in everything...then just by your definition, he cares quite a bit then....don't you think?


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## Harry Haller (Mar 1, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> if, as you say, the creator wants you to see the creator in everything...then just by your definition, he cares quite a bit then....don't you think?



I never said any such thing, in my view Creator wants for nothing, wanting is a human facet, as is anger, jealousy, disappointment, pleasure et al, Creator, in my view, is beyond such feelings.

What I said was that Creator is the sum of Creation, and no, he does not care, not even a bit. Creator is truth, be truthful, be part of Creator, live in consonance with the truth, its all we have got. 

However, if it suits your purpose to have Creator as one big care bear, all concerned and playing around with creation to suit a million different agendas, and to show the world what a great caring guy he is, knock yourself out!


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Mar 1, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I never said any such thing, in my view Creator wants for nothing, wanting is a human facet, as is anger, jealousy, disappointment, pleasure et al, Creator, in my view, is beyond such feelings.
> 
> What I said was that Creator is the sum of Creation, and no, he does not care, not even a bit. Creator is truth, be truthful, be part of Creator, live in consonance with the truth, its all we have got.



I think on the evidence of what you are saying here, you might well be a deist. This is neither agreement nor disagreement with your beliefs, just an observation.



> deism,_ noun_
> 1.
> belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ).
> 2.
> ...



You would be in pretty good company. 
This is a partial list of a partial list from Wikipedia of people who have been categorized as deists, the belief in a deity based on natural religion only, or belief in religious truths discovered by people through a process of reasoning, independent of any revelation through scripture or prophets.

Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln, Adam Smith, George Washington, Alexander Pope, Leonardo da Vinci, and Voltaire. I personally might add Gautama Siddhartha to the list, although he is more often listed as an atheist.

By the way, Freeeedoooom is a wonderful thing, but don't forget poor William Wallace was hung, drawn and quartered which isn't an easy way to go, even with your face half painted blue. The Scottish History website calls this death "humiliating." I might call it the sort of thing the Moghuls would have visited upon the Sikhs, if they had thought of it. There is something in Sikhi that inspires its adherents to persist in spite of such treatment. What that is might bear investigation (I personally think it might have something to do with the way Sikhs envision the Creator.)


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't think he is Deist:


"Deism is actually a form of monotheism, but distinct enough in character and development to warrant its own section. In addition to adopting general monotheism, deists also accept the specific ideas that the single existing god is personal in nature and transcendent from the created universe.
However, they reject the idea that this this god is immanent, which is to say presently active in the created universe."

I think he fits more with Pantheism:

"The term pantheism is built upon the Greek roots _pan_, which means all, and _theos_, which mens god; thus, pantheism is either the belief that the universe is God and worthy of worship, or that *God is the sum total of all there is* and that the combined substances, forces, and natural laws which we see around us are but manifestations of God."

The above would fit or an unconscious Universe and seeing the Universe as not being an entity that is aware etc. and transcends the Universe. ie: calling the sum of the Universe God even if you don't believe in a conscious aware entity that created everything. 

However Sikhi is most definitely Panentheistic (even though all the websites say it's Monotheistic):

"The term panentheism is Greek for all-in-God, _pan-en-theos_. A panentheistic belief system is one which posits a god that interpenetrates every part of nature, but is nevertheless fully distinct from nature.
So this god is part of nature, but *still retains an independent identity*."


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## broken (Mar 2, 2016)

You can call Harry anything you want.

I will call him "friend".


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Mar 2, 2016)

broken said:


> You can call Harry anything you want.
> 
> I will call him "friend".


Of course, he is friend, but that's sort of a conversation stopper- and anyway, he - like all of us - has many different facets and, if I know harry, all of this is greatly amusing to him. 

Whatever. I'll ask him directly...

Harry or harry.

Are we amusing you? Which label, if any, do you prefer: deist, pantheist, or panentheist? Or do you prefer to trade off on all or any of them. (I know labels are a drag, but they do keep the conversation going, eh?)

And beware, I shall soon be quoting the Mul Mantar, which is, after all, the Sikh answer to your question.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 2, 2016)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> I think on the evidence of what you are saying here, you might well be a deist.



I thought I was labelled an atheist, but deist sounds just as good!



Inderjeet Kaur said:


> By the way, Freeeedoooom is a wonderful thing, but don't forget poor William Wallace was hung, drawn and quartered which isn't an easy way to go, even with your face half painted blue.



pah, an amateur, he would not have lasted 5 mins with my ex. 



Harkiran Kaur said:


> I don't think he is Deist:


I thought I was deist when I finished reading the post!



Harkiran Kaur said:


> I think he fits more with Pantheism:


Nope, I agree having read this, I am a pantherist. 



broken said:


> You can call Harry anything you want.
> 
> I will call him "friend".



why thank you, would that be an atheistic, deistic or pantheristic friend!!



Inderjeet Kaur said:


> if I know harry, all of this is greatly amusing to him.



it is making me chuckle as I sit here eating this cornish pasty, and reading yesterdays sun. 



Inderjeet Kaur said:


> Are we amusing you? Which label, if any, do you prefer: deist, pantheist, or panentheist? Or do you prefer to trade off on all or any of them. (I know labels are a drag, but they do keep the conversation going, eh?)
> 
> And beware, I shall soon be quoting the Mul Mantar, which is, after all, the Sikh answer to your question.



The question is who is this creator who cares for us, I say, who cares? I think if you focus all your attention on a single entity then that is your focus, its pointing at something that possibly only exists in your head, but if you focus all your attention on everything, then everything is Creator, and that is who Creator is, everything. I think that going through life trying to please an imaginary friend sounds like an awful way to live, I have come to the conclusion that it is not how you conduct yourself or how you behave, or what boxes you tick, it is the effect you have on other people that defines who you are, is it a cop out? yes, in a way, I am suggesting that it really does not matter how much you donate to charity, or what great acts of philanthropy you have carried out, it is your interaction with Creation on a daily basis that defines you, effectively, what you do that others do not see. Somethings I guess should be taken seriously, I am still not sure what they are, but the rest, well its all a big joke is it not, or material for the next big joke! As people we seem obsessed with being seen to be 'good', whilst masking or hiding our 'badness', and if we can succeed in fooling others and ourselves, then we are 'good'. I am not good, I have a bad streak in me, not towards others, more towards myself, but I believe that if my actions, and the consequences of my actions, can have a positive effect, then I am 'worshiping god'. However, my opinion is that if I think of god, or even consider god, then I am looking to appease a deity rather than live, learn and grow.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 2, 2016)

harry haller said:


> However, my opinion is that if I think of god, or even consider god, then I am looking to appease a deity rather than live, learn and grow.



But... doesn't Gurbani tell us to see and serve the Divine Light (God) inside everyone? And that God is ultimate reality (ONEness) which means everyone that exists are really part of that ONE God. So look at it from the opposite direction.... by serving others and helping humanity you ARE thinking / serving God! 

Not for any appeasement - remember that ultimate reality is ONEness! How can one of your blood cells appease you? It's PART of you!!


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## Harry Haller (Mar 2, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> But... doesn't Gurbani tell us to see and serve the Divine Light (God) inside everyone? And that God is ultimate reality (ONEness) which means everyone that exists are really part of that ONE God. So look at it from the opposite direction.... by serving others and helping humanity you ARE thinking / serving God!
> 
> Not for any appeasement - remember that ultimate reality is ONEness! How can one of your blood cells appease you? It's PART of you!!



Well, not quite, you see for me the whole 'god' thing has quite nasty connotations, and although it looks like we are arguing over semantics, it is much more than that. As a child, I was terrified of making god angry, and as I grew up into a young adult, having a taste for the unusual, I was aware that I was probably constantly making god angry, which then mean't I had to carry out actions that I assumed would make him happy, of course, you end up in your local Gurdwara seeking spiritual guidance, but the things that I was told that would make god happy did not make any sense to me. 

I think to see 'god' in everyone and then attempt to please 'god' in everyone is a mistake, it makes you wish to appease people, to please people, to overlook their faults, to make excuses for them, when what you should be doing is lifting people, and that is not always pleasant, nor as much fun as pleasing 'god'. 

To be a Sikh, and to see Ek Onkar in everything, I think is different to say, being a Christian and seeing the personality of 'god' in everything. I hope that makes sense


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 2, 2016)

Actually it IS semantics... and pls note I didnt say 'please' everyone. I said see / serve the divine light in everyone. Pleasing them or God didn't come into it.  As I said, God is ONEness and everything is a part of that one. So there really is no 'pleasing' in that scenario! It's more 'realizing'.
When Christians say they see personality of God in someone they don't literally mean God is part of them. They mean someone is acting as God would have them act (as dictated by the Bible) in a Godly manner... but they very much see God as entirely separate from Creation. Sikhi however tells us God is WITHIN everything - but also exists independently of everything in *it/he/she*'s on right (use whatever you want there because God has no gender and is formless).  All this form, us, the planets sun etc are ALL illusion and temporary. However, the 'seer' behind every set of eyes is one and the same. THAT'S what we need to recognize in each other. Not to PLEASE anyonee, but for our own realization and other's realization so that someday we might experience that ONEness


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## Harry Haller (Mar 2, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Actually it IS semantics... and pls note I didnt say 'please' everyone. I said see / serve the divine light in everyone. Pleasing them or God didn't come into it. As I said, God is ONEness and everything is a part of that one. So there really is no 'pleasing' in that scenario! It's more 'realizing'.



Please tell me how one serves the divine light in everyone?



Harkiran Kaur said:


> However, the 'seer' behind every set of eyes is one and the same. THAT'S what we need to recognize in each other. Not to PLEASE anyonee, but for our own realization and other's realization so that someday we might experience that ONEness



I see, the problem is I don't care a fig for my own realization, and I could not care less about ONEness..


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 2, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Please tell me how one serves the divine light in everyone?



Selfless service and it can be many different ways depending on the need of the person.  Just remember its not THEM you are serving.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 2, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Just remember its not THEM you are serving.



strange comment, why?


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## broken (Mar 2, 2016)

harry haller said:


> why thank you, would that be an atheistic, deistic or pantheristic friend!!



The batteries are dead in my label maker. Consider yourself Generic ... or better, multi-purpose, like a Swiss knife.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 2, 2016)

I used to have a fancy label, but we don't talk about that anymore. Generic works for me!


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 2, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I see, the problem is I don't care a fig for my own realization, and I could not care less about ONEness..



Self-realization, self-actualization, oneness, seeing "God" in all...sounds like a bunch of positive-thinky new-age hooey.  What's the point?


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## Seeker2013 (Mar 2, 2016)

How can we describe the creator when Guru Nanak dev ji himself admitted that he has failed in doing so , in Japji sahib "Je hau jaana aakha nahi, kehna kathan na jaai" (Even if I know I can't say, because it cannot be described )

God is both what you described and what you think is not !
He's both the evolver of our brains and the big cloud of love that is constantly watching and listening. 
Sometimes when you're stuck with a problem and all of a sudden a solution comes in your mind, that is god ! the faint whisper of answers in your heart when a question arises, that is god speaking ! 

God is the grandiose creation, but a the same time is very subtle . God is total of all that exists and yet is independent of its creation and transcends it ! 
Like a thread that passes piercing through all the beads to make a rosary , it is (god) present in all of its creation

"Sagal samagree tumre sutar dhaari, tum teh hoye so aagyakari"
(The whole ingredients (substances making the universe) are passing through your thread.
They are obedient to you)


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## Harry Haller (Mar 3, 2016)

Seeker2013 said:


> How can we describe the creator when Guru Nanak dev ji himself admitted that he has failed in doing so , in Japji sahib "Je hau jaana aakha nahi, kehna kathan na jaai" (Even if I know I can't say, because it cannot be described )



your right, we are going down a pointless path, the most intelligent answer to the question posed by this thread is quite simple. 

I DON'T KNOW!

is it ego that is stopping us from just plain admitting, we don't know, we can't know, and if we do know, then that is only proof of our own foolishness!


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## Harry Haller (Mar 3, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Self-realization, self-actualization, oneness, seeing "God" in all...sounds like a bunch of positive-thinky new-age hooey.  What's the point?


*Just remember its not THEM you are serving.*

well, I agree with you other than seeing god in all, I think that is not hooey, for the simple reason that I think that is the very cornerstone of Sikhism, but not in a way that suggests lip service, and certainly not in a way that you brand the world some sort of play with only one actor, if that works for you, brilliant, but it does not work for me, people are real, animals are real, feelings are real, hurt is real, and compassion for your fellow inhabitants can be real. 

I feel others pain, acutely, its what prompts me more than anything to action, I cannot feel others happiness so much, but pain, suffering, despair, depression, I feel these things from complete strangers, it can make it very difficult not to do things for people, animals, maybe I do it to ease my own suffering, I am not sure, but having given the matter some thought, it is them I do it for, not god.


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## chazSingh (Mar 3, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Self-realization, self-actualization, oneness, seeing "God" in all...sounds like a bunch of positive-thinky new-age hooey.  What's the point?



funny that...

the SGGS Ji inspires people to do just that new age hooey...self actualization, realization, seeing god in all, etc etc...maybe i should just look at guru ji next time i matha tek, and say...whats the point...lol

actually i can just say it now..."guru ji, quit with the new age crap...i dont want to see you in all...i dont really want to know who\what i really am....i dont give a crap about knowing what life really is, where it came from, how it formed...how i formed..why death is, why birth is...quite your nonsense and leave me alone..."

there...i let it out 

thankfully...i dont really mean it...because the seeing god in all, the self realization, the seeking...is just too damn amazing..wondrous...crazy...

god bless


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## Harry Haller (Mar 3, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> "guru ji, quit with the new age crap..



Well that's how I feel actually, one can even see where it ends up, 3HO is quite a good example. 



chazSingh said:


> i dont want to see you in all.



Now let us apply some logic, we don't know what god is, we don't know what he looks like, or indeed, anything, other than his facets, so to see god in all is impossible, maybe all one can do is extend god's facets, as known, to all, as all is god. Now that is practical, because I keep reading about seeing god in all, but I do not see the required grace, nor the required love, so it all becomes semantics. 


chazSingh said:


> i dont give a crap about knowing what life really is


I don't..



chazSingh said:


> ..i dont really want to know who\what i really am.


I do, but that is down to me...



chazSingh said:


> i dont give a crap about knowing what life really is, where it came from, how it formed...how i formed..why death is, why birth is..



its true, I don't

I just want to embrace truthful living as best I can and I do not need a deity for that


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 3, 2016)

harry haller said:


> feelings are real, hurt is real, and compassion for your fellow inhabitants can be real.
> 
> I feel others pain, acutely, its what prompts me more than anything to action, I cannot feel others happiness so much, but pain, suffering, despair, depression, I feel these things from complete strangers, it can make it very difficult not to do things for people, animals



It's just a biochemical change in your body, a temporary reaction in your nervous system.  Emotions and feelings are no more "real" than a drug-induced high.

It's all transitory, anyway.  Even the most hurtful (or blissful) feeling will eventually pass.  Then what are you left with?  Memories of your compassion and/or pain?

[AoG]


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## chazSingh (Mar 3, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> It's just a biochemical change in your body, a temporary reaction in your nervous system.  Emotions and feelings are no more "real" than a drug-induced high.
> 
> It's all transitory, anyway.  Even the most hurtful (or blissful) feeling will eventually pass.  Then what are you left with?  Memories of your compassion and/or pain?
> 
> [AoG]



oh you have no idea...no idea at all... but thats ok...because i used to think the same thing..

one day you will though...its just a matter of time ...it'll spring up on you...and you'll think...wah...wahe...waheguru!.....because thats what it is truely wondrous..

god bless


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## chazSingh (Mar 3, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Well that's how I feel actually, one can even see where it ends up, 3HO is quite a good example.



why like 3HO...don;t you have your own brain...why do you need to end up like anyone else...or any group...seriously dude...that's just an excuse...make you own path...you can think like that and end up how you want to be...



> Now let us apply some logic, we don't know what god is, we don't know what he looks like, or indeed, anything, other than his facets, so to see god in all is impossible, maybe all one can do is extend god's facets, as known, to all, as all is god. Now that is practical, because I keep reading about seeing god in all, but I do not see the required grace, nor the required love, so it all becomes semantics.



ahh man...we can't do this..we can't do that....so many barriers...
maybe i should just give up...oh wait...i realized it was true...like han solo said "the jedi, the force, the dark side...its all true...all of it"... 

so thankfully, your negativity does nothing but prove to me and others that we are indeed on our own path...in the end we end up with the realization, and you will too...but maybe not just yet...or maybe you will  who knows...



> I don't..



ok, so you dont give a crap about knowing what life really is...cool



> I do, but that is down to me...



but you want to know who or what you are.....don;t confuse yourself...same thing dude...you want to know what you or who you are...that's a huuuge part of wanting to know what life really is...don;t you think?




> I just want to embrace truthful living as best I can and I do not need a deity for that



neither do i need a deity...thank diety-less God we agree on something 
one day you'll see the light of Waheguru...shining brightly within you...and because you saw it in yourself...you'll know it exists within everyone and everything else also...
you'll feel it, sometimes commune with it, you'll know you have been blocking the love that it holds because once you feel it, oh man...its overwhelming...you'll feel like you're going to pop...

but you won;'t..because you're part of it..


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 3, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> oh you have no idea...no idea at all... but thats ok...because i used to think the same thing..
> 
> one day you will though...its just a matter of time ...it'll spring up on you...and you'll think...wah...wahe...waheguru!.....because thats what it is truely wondrous..



I'm so glad that you're here to tell me how ignorant I am.  Really, I'm touched.

[AoG]


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 3, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> I'm so glad that you're here to tell me how ignorant I am.  Really, I'm touched.
> 
> [AoG]



And I.M touched that you think what myself and others experience is just a temporary chang in our nervous system...

Is this something you studied...read somewhere...what experience has led you to know what it is that I talk of or what guru ji describes?


----------



## broken (Mar 3, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Self-realization, self-actualization, oneness, seeing "God" in all...sounds like a bunch of positive-thinky new-age hooey.  What's the point?



I thought of this question today as I puttered around the new garden project I am working on. I'm pulling out wasteful plants and replacing with desert native plants. I like natives.

First I thought of King Solomon. He said there is nothing new under the sun (I think he was correct, even though there are smartphones now). So I chucked a little at the New Age reference. That same label makes me chuckle when I'm at Barnes & Noble also.

Here's the thing. When the local forest went ablaze in wildfire back in 2003 a few days later it looked like a moonscape. This troubled me because I was evacuated during the fire, and I never went back home afterwards, and this was difficult to see. But now, years later we are seeing the transition from the Pioneer Plants to the next level of the forest's natural restoration process. Watching this is joyful.

When I look at nature, it is looking at god, because there are no limits, no holding back. Nature is full on out there .... those burned pines exploded during the fire and sent seeds all over to hopefully take the place of the lost pine tree. Thousands of seeds, only one needed to succeed but nature knows the odds and plays to win.

There is nothing more self wasteful than nature. Zillions of pollen pods blow in the wind, seeds helicopter out trees by the millions and the hydrological cycle moves through the motions without hesitation. Inside the leaves CO2 is turned into oxygen, nitrogen is processed by the plants and hungry little whatevers eat the grasses and flowers with glee. Never thinking there will not be enough.

God is ... I know this. I touched him today. I work with him in the gardens and together we produce a wonderful seasonal bounty of vegetables to eat, flowers to encourage the bees and some ganja to fight my disability.

New age. Nope. Nothing new. God was, is and will be there .... close enough to put your hands on, yet far enough away to see the big picture of it all.

Fun fact: All the trees in the Sequoia National Park ..... have the same DNA. All those big beautiful trees are all related and sharing roots.

Amazing. Wonder. Beautiful. Ginormous. You betcha ... I wanna plug into that.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 3, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> And I.M touched that you think what myself and others experience is just a temporary chang in our nervous system...



Emotions and feelings are by nature temporary, they will not last.  To rely on them is pure folly.

Don't rely on your five senses either -- they will deceive you again and again.

I know it's not what you want to hear.  But it is what it is.



chazSingh said:


> Is this something you studied...read somewhere...



This is based on my experience.  The human body, the human senses, thoughts, feelings, emotions, ALL of it is fickle and unreliable.  The human heart is unreliable and fickle.



chazSingh said:


> what experience has led you to know what it is that I talk of or what guru ji describes?



I don't understand the question, kindly rephrase it please?

[AoG]


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> It's just a biochemical change in your body, a temporary reaction in your nervous system.  Emotions and feelings are no more "real" than a drug-induced high.
> 
> It's all transitory, anyway.  Even the most hurtful (or blissful) feeling will eventually pass.  Then what are you left with?  Memories of your compassion and/or pain?
> 
> [AoG]



Let me put it another way, one thing I haven noticed about perception is that your ability to feel the pain and pleasure in others is heightened, as it would be. If this gives one the ability to to tune into those that need a leg up, that need a lift, then it is very real, and very useful indeed. 



ActsOfGod said:


> It's all transitory, anyway. Even the most hurtful (or blissful) feeling will eventually pass. Then what are you left with? Memories of your compassion and/or pain?



I have some very good memories, sometimes that is all I have


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> why like 3HO...don;t you have your own brain...why do you need to end up like anyone else...or any group...seriously dude...that's just an excuse...make you own path...you can think like that and end up how you want to be...



I have made my own path, I am telling you where yours leads. 


chazSingh said:


> ahh man...we can't do this..we can't do that....so many barriers...
> maybe i should just give up...oh wait...i realized it was true...like han solo said "the jedi, the force, the dark side...its all true...all of it"...



so many barriers? what do you want? a free for all where we accept that all religions are ultimately the same and god is universally the same for all religions?



chazSingh said:


> so thankfully, your negativity



you mean my opinion.



chazSingh said:


> does nothing but prove to me and others that we are indeed on our own path.



do you need proof?



chazSingh said:


> in the end we end up with the realization



keep it, your welcome to it. 



chazSingh said:


> and you will too...but maybe not just yet...



I am honoured to be in such excellent company of wisdom o wise sage. 



chazSingh said:


> ok, so you dont give a crap about knowing what life really is...cool



A pointless and time consuming question. I have given it my best shot, my answer would be to know who you are, on to the next question. I am more concerned with actually living. 



chazSingh said:


> but you want to know who or what you are.


I have a fairly good idea who I am. 


chazSingh said:


> don;t confuse yourself...same thing dude...you want to know what you or who you are...that's a huuuge part of wanting to know what life really is...don;t you think?



Life is about knowing yourself, about acceptance, about seeing that all have something in them that I also have, and connecting with that something. I know there is a school of thought that talks about seeing god in all, but if you truly saw god in all, your actions would reflect this, as would your writings, your thoughts, I attempt to connect with something, with varying degrees of success, but to truly see god in all, any such person would stand out like a sore thumb. I do not see very many sore thumbs. 



chazSingh said:


> one day you'll see the light of Waheguru...shining brightly within you...and because you saw it in yourself...you'll know it exists within everyone and everything else also...
> you'll feel it, sometimes commune with it, you'll know you have been blocking the love that it holds because once you feel it, oh man...its overwhelming...you'll feel like you're going to pop...
> 
> but you won;'t..because you're part of it..



words, just words, easy to write are they not?
I wonder sometimes if you write about it so much because it eludes you?


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

broken said:


> I thought of this question today as I puttered around the new garden project I am working on. I'm pulling out wasteful plants and replacing with desert native plants. I like natives.
> 
> First I thought of King Solomon. He said there is nothing new under the sun (I think he was correct, even though there are smartphones now). So I chucked a little at the New Age reference. That same label makes me chuckle when I'm at Barnes & Noble also.
> 
> ...



no amazing revelations, no criticism, no grand orders, no telling everyone else they are wrong, just a sharing of experience and emotions and the self, you really need to brush up on your post writing techniques if you are going to fit in here.


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> The human heart is unreliable and fickle.



yeah but its all we got, so lets make the most of it!


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I have some very good memories, sometimes that is all I have



If that's all we've got to look forward to, then life is a crap-shoot indeed...


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

harry haller said:


> yeah but its all we got, so lets make the most of it!



You're barking up the wrong tree here ...


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> one day you'll see the light of Waheguru...shining brightly within you...and because you saw it in yourself...you'll know it exists within everyone and everything else also...
> you'll feel it, sometimes commune with it, you'll know you have been blocking the love that it holds because once you feel it, oh man...its overwhelming...you'll feel like you're going to pop...



So what are we going to do, just sit around and bliss out all day?  Is that really the Sikh way?


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> You're barking up the wrong tree here ...



I love this, a three way argument, ok, what is the right tree then?


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 4, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I have made my own path, I am telling you where yours leads.



you think i will end up like 3HO...? i dont know every individual who belongs to 3HO, so i really can;t determine this...

if there are some very compassionate members of 3Ho...selfless members...then i dont mind ending up like them...

in every group there are good or bad people...good sikhs bad sikhs, good plumbers, bad plumbers...generalization is no good for anyone...its why sikhs get attacked for looking like terrorists


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> So what are we going to do, just sit around and bliss out all day?  Is that really the Sikh way?



you have absolutely no idea what i experience..
so i dont know what you mean by sitting around in 'bliss' all day...

how do you know i sit around in 'bliss' all day...what is 'bliss'..what does it mean...it could mean and it could describe a million things...explain what you mean lol ...

i could be in bliss whilst drinking tea in my garden...in bliss whilst sat on a roller coaster...in bliss when i pass my exams...in bliss when i finally sit on a seat after standing up all day..in bliss when i give a homeless person a sandwich...in bliss when i hug my wife...in bliss when i see my mum after a long time...in bliss when my nephew says something really cool...in bliss when i fix I.T related issues that have bugged me at work for many hours...in bliss when the blister on my finger finally heals...in bliss when i achieve something that helps others...in bliss when i see a war end on T. V....

what are you trying to say


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> ...its why sikhs get attacked for looking like terrorists



WHOA there Nelly!!  You're saying that Sikhs look like terrorists!?!?!

Talk about preconceptions!  Wow!

To be clear, just because a person is wearing a turban and has a beard, doesn't mean they "look like a terrorist".  There is no way you can equate that to the "look" of a terrorist.

Enlighten me, please.  What exactly does a terrorist "look" like?

Was Tim McVeigh a terrorist?  How about Ted Kaczynski?  Dylann Roof?  Wade Michael Page?  Shall i go on?

What a shallow, prejudiced way of thinking.

Do a little historical research.  Learn how the image of a turbaned Sikh was a symbol for justice, hope and peace for people.  The title 'Sardar' was not bestowed, it was earned through sacrifice and blood.

And before you say, "yea but in the West it's the image of the terrorist", you should really point the finger at the media and to the {censored}s who sit in front of the TV all day instead of going out and actually learning something about the world we live in.

[AoG]


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I love this, a three way argument, ok, what is the right tree then?



Heck if I know....I'm in this mess right here with y'all....


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> WHOA there Nelly!!  You're saying that Sikhs look like terrorists!?!?!
> 
> Talk about preconceptions!  Wow!
> 
> ...





i'm not saying they look like terrorists...lol the fact that you are suggesting that i;m implying that clearly shows you are not reading what i am typing lol...

please re-read and re-read again and again, and try to understand the point that i am trying to make about the dangers of generalization...

seriously dude...

admin ji....if you read this message, i'm from the U.K..not sure where the above flag has come from..


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> what are you trying to say



Here's what I'm saying:  I think your experiences are all sensory illusions and you have gotten stuck in them (because they're so pleasurable) thinking that you're actually "experiencing God" and all that "wow man" stuff.  To be honest, it seems like you just transferred all your hippy talk and applied it to Sikhi.

I'm not bashing you or your experiences, really I'm not (so please don't get upset).  I respect your experience and your right to it.  It just seems to me that something is a bit off.

I don't know anything about experiencing God, of course.  No one really does.  But I do have a few clues after decades of searching.  I know, for example, that it's not at all easy.  In fact, it's one of the most rare and difficult things.  Kabir Ji spent something like thirty years searching and practicing before he had the experiences of enlightenment.  The other clue I have is that the few rare ones who do have this experience, don't really _talk_ about it.  The manifestation of their experience is through actions which are exhibited in their lives.

And then here come people like you.  You spend some few short years and then all of a sudden you're blissing out all the time because "wow man!  I can see it all now!  the sum total of creation!"

Here's what I think is really happening.  It's a process, a journey.  There are many stages (or steps), and along the way, amazing things happen.  Riddhia siddhia, etc.  So many of us are so wowed by these things that we think we've "arrived" and we just stop and get stuck.  Gurbani warns of this.

Let's do a little experiment.  If you see "God in all", then by your definition, you must see God in me.  Right?  So if you see God in me, why are you now having all these emotions that are other than Love?  Please do explain ... 

[AoG]


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> i'm not saying they look like terrorists...lol the fact that you are suggesting that i;m implying that clearly shows you are not reading what i am typing lol...
> 
> please re-read and re-read again and again, and try to understand the point that i am trying to make about the dangers of generalization...
> 
> seriously dude...



No dude.  Seriously.  You have a blind spot about this.  You did say that Sikhs looks like terrorists.  Right here:



> ...its why sikhs get attacked for looking like terrorists



It's english, man!


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

Here's a little fun fact:

http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html


----------



## Inderjeet Kaur (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Heck if I know....I'm in this mess right here with y'all....





> Harry haller said: ↑
> I love this, a three way argument, OK, what is the right tree then?



Druids worshiped all trees especially the yew and the oak, but I'd vote for the baobab, looking like it's upside down with its roots in the air.







> Not only is the Universe queerer than we understand, it's queerer than we _can _understand
> JSB Haldane, Scottish mathematician


----------



## broken (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> You're saying that Sikhs look like terrorists!?!?!
> 
> Talk about preconceptions!
> 
> ...





ActsOfGod said:


> To be honest, it seems like you just transferred all your hippy talk and applied it to Sikhi.
> 
> I'm not bashing you or your experiences, really I'm not ...
> 
> ...





ActsOfGod said:


> You have a blind spot about this.



You sure do a whole bunch of telling. 

As for God in you ..... yes, I see him .... it appears he would like to get out.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

broken said:


> You sure do a whole bunch of telling.
> 
> As for God in you ..... yes, I see him .... it appears he would like to get out.



So profound.  Gee, thanks.


----------



## broken (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> So profound.  Gee, thanks.



I thought so. Because when God gets out of us, we stop telling. We start hearing. We start to understand that which is unspoken. Revelation. Heart songs. It's amazing what happens to us when we let god out.

I kept God in for quite a long time. Different faith then. I knew a bunch. I was right often. I told people what they should do. I spoke in definitives. I was really ugly then. 

I'm glad I let him out. He wasn't very happy all bunched in like that.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

broken said:


> I thought so. Because when God gets out of us, we stop telling. We start hearing. We start to understand that which is unspoken. Revelation. Heart songs. It's amazing what happens to us when we let god out.
> 
> I kept God in for quite a long time. Different faith then. I knew a bunch. I was right often. I told people what they should do. I spoke in definitives. I was really ugly then.
> 
> I'm glad I let him out. He wasn't very happy all bunched in like that.



With all due respect, you're not talking about "God" at all.

You're talking about belief systems, paradigms, and models of the world (worldview).  How people think about things, framework of thought, etc.

It's all mental gymnastics, though.  All in the field of Psychology.

Please don't label such stuff as "God", it's misleading.

I'm glad it all worked out for you, though.

[AoG]


----------



## broken (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> With all due respect, you're not talking about "God" at all.
> 
> You're talking about belief systems, paradigms, and models of the world (worldview).  How people think about things, framework of thought, etc.
> 
> ...



You are so funny. Thank you. You have brightened my otherwise unhappy day.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

broken said:


> You are so funny. Thank you. You have brightened my otherwise unhappy day.



Glad to be of service.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> i could be in bliss whilst drinking tea in my garden...in bliss whilst sat on a roller coaster...in bliss when i pass my exams...in bliss when i finally sit on a seat after standing up all day..in bliss when i give a homeless person a sandwich...in bliss when i hug my wife...in bliss when i see my mum after a long time...in bliss when my nephew says something really cool...in bliss when i fix I.T related issues that have bugged me at work for many hours...in bliss when the blister on my finger finally heals...in bliss when i achieve something that helps others...in bliss when i see a war end on T. V....



All of this stuff you're describing is typical materialistic worldly stuff.  All of your emotional rewards are rooted in the five senses and in the meanings you've attached to your earthly existence (family relationships, sense of self-worth, physical healing, etc.)

If this is all that "God experience" is to you (and there's nothing wrong with that), then more power to you buddy.  Carry on, Captain!


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> With all due respect, you're not talking about "God" at all.
> 
> You're talking about belief systems, paradigms, and models of the world (worldview). How people think about things, framework of thought, etc.
> 
> ...



why not, that's what 99% of folk think god is


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

harry haller said:


> why not, that's what 99% of folk think god is



It's not, though, is it?  So this only illustrates that it's more elusive than the typical person cares to admit.


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> It's not, though, is it?  So this only illustrates that it's more elusive than the typical person cares to admit.



I disagree, the typical person has a view of god which is quite Abrahamic, old bloke, gets angry easily, beard, sandals, smug spiritual look, most would not care to admit it could be something else


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 4, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I disagree, the typical person has a view of god which is quite Abrahamic, old bloke, gets angry easily, beard, sandals, smug spiritual look, most would not care to admit it could be something else



What are you disagreeing with, that's it's more elusive than people realize, or that "Goddy" is not what 99% of people think it is?


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2016)

both


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 6, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Here's what I'm saying:  I think your experiences are all sensory illusions and you have gotten stuck in them (because they're so pleasurable) thinking that you're actually "experiencing God" and all that "wow man" stuff.  To be honest, it seems like you just transferred all your hippy talk and applied it to Sikhi.
> 
> I'm not bashing you or your experiences, really I'm not (so please don't get upset).  I respect your experience and your right to it.  It just seems to me that something is a bit off.
> 
> ...



In many of my posts I have stated I feel I am just skimming the surface...

So if you could please give me one example where I have said I have experienced it all...

You won't be able to...

Only reason I am here is to provide a little balance...from people who say 'you can't do this n that...' or 'its just 'sensory illusion'...I mean seriously...what experimentation have you conducted to determine this...

Have you followed guru jis guidelines of seva...truthful living...and Naam simran to determine for yourself? 

Whole point of sangat is to inspire share and talk to each other...yes you don't have to share all your experiences...but I can still try to inspire as others have inspired me.

From the very little I have experienced I know 100% there is something truly amazing to this...that's not me saying I've experienced it all...that's you thinking that way..or assuming that.

Also what other emotions other than love do you think I'm experiencing....please tell me..lol. and then tell me how you are coming to those conclusions.

These are just words...there is no way for you to determine how I.M feeling when I write them. I.M giving you no hints other than when I put down lol or a


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 6, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> All of this stuff you're describing is typical materialistic worldly stuff.  All of your emotional rewards are rooted in the five senses and in the meanings you've attached to your earthly existence (family relationships, sense of self-worth, physical healing, etc.)
> 
> If this is all that "God experience" is to you (and there's nothing wrong with that), then more power to you buddy.  Carry on, Captain!



No no no

You're doing it again lol...m8ssung the point again lol

You mentioned I. M just sat around all day in bliss...and I.Ve asked you 'what do mean by bliss' lol...

And then I described a handful of an infinite numver of things that could be deemed blissful. ..and then asked you to clarify what you mean by me sitting around in blisa all day lol

I haven't tried to explain an experience of waheguru...

God bless you...
I will start to exchange messages with you when you start reading mine properly.
Until then we're just creating clutter on a forum


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 6, 2016)

God becomes easily understood once you know your own place in the grand scheme of things. I found it but cannot share. It is a secret that is no secret if you simply look below, in front and above in no particular order and can visualize the grandness and all connected and as one at the same time.

Very hard to describe though  I get intoxicated by it all.

Sat Sri Akal


----------



## Inderjeet Kaur (Mar 6, 2016)

I remember a poem from my school days about a Sufi saint, named Ibrahim ibn Adham (c.730 - c.782 CE) from what is now  Afghanistan, written by an English Christian poet, Leigh Hunt (1784-1959), that seems to fit well into this Sikh discussion.

Abou Ben Adhem
By Leigh Hunt

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?"—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.


----------



## Parma (Mar 6, 2016)

If creation cheapens a persons merchandise then realistically there is no real progress of the merchant or value or principle of what that individual stands on.  The unique universe is such a grand subject design, that it makes me wonder who is who and how does the idea of the creator and creation combine. It's very fashionable being moralistic especially when the grand finialy is never in sight forevermore the creator keeps on creating the show and supremacy of love. Funny how when it comes to anything associated with progress that love is the only key issue that they all forget to apply knowledge on as progress of any rewards financial or otherwise are always built upon a purpose which can never be lost or destroyed which is love. What is fashion itself but pointless.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 7, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> No no no
> 
> You're doing it again lol...m8ssung the point again lol
> 
> ...



Aw come on, don't stop playing now ... we were just getting to the fun part...


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 7, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> God becomes easily understood once you know your own place in the grand scheme of things.



Really?  Oh yippee please show me how I can understand my place in this grand scheme.  Can't wait ...


----------



## Parma (Mar 7, 2016)

Fashion and individuals nothing has value not even the earth if there it has no purpose. Sikhism teaches a unique lesson on purpose that is why people listen to it but it doesn't teach a unique lesson on God I guess as that would make all of creation invalid and make Guru Nanaks message of equality totally wrong. That is the product of the Guru on a purpose not the appearance of a show but the purpose of where the journey is taking you individually. Your own death it is always easy and ever near from the Guidance of what we receive, guru nanak stated that there is no Hindu or Muslim from the opening lines of the Guru Granth Sahib ji it states Ek Onkar so to combine that message Sikhism has a purpose disidents of human rights should always combine together the design and development or as you put it a fashion of creations own point and purpose. What is civilization or development of Sikhism; if what we are learning about is unable to fully fulfil a wholesome family life. I guess that families that are able to live totally psychologically blissful family lives are very lucky and the encouragement of that and development of that is the value or measure of the world we live in. Do we want to progress to a twisted world that keeps on with games or a blissful awakening of the soul. The world spins and the sun and moon watch it grow. Plus as individual's if we are not treated or valued to an acknowledgement of perception then we'll we really need to ask ourselves a simple question why would anyone want to live in a haunted sculpture of a dying forest. What some imbeciles feel honoured to call home or earth full of no love. To be honest to the idiots that feel that they own a piece of the world it is this a wise message wise up the world is borderless when it comes to payment sorry but you own didly squat if payment of the up keep of ideals is borderless then so is the world's future and we should accept that sometimes well we just need get out and be able to appreciate gods temples before we begin to visualise and understand places of worship. Nice little island of the United Kingdom isn't it. Gur fathe!


----------



## broken (Mar 7, 2016)

The closer this thread swings towards absurdity the more realistic it becomes.


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 7, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> God becomes easily understood once you know your own place in the grand scheme of things. I found it but cannot share. It is a secret that is no secret if you simply look below, in front and above in no particular order and can visualize the grandness and all connected and as one at the same time.
> 
> Very hard to describe though  I get intoxicated by it all.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal



Like the way you put that. God bless ji


----------



## ActsOfGod (Mar 8, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> i'm not saying they look like terrorists...lol the fact that you are suggesting that i;m implying that clearly shows you are not reading what i am typing lol...
> 
> please re-read and re-read again and again, and try to understand the point that i am trying to make about the dangers of generalization...
> 
> seriously dude...



You have a blind spot, a scotoma.  Instead of condescending to me telling me "re-read and re-read again and again" (what am I, a freaking third grader?), try to understand what I'm saying, take a look at what you wrote, and try to understand the hidden biases in your language and your thinking.

The construction of the sentence gives it away, regardless of your claims otherwise.

When you have enough respect and humility to examine your own hidden bias and psychological conditioning, come back and let's have a chat.  Until then, remain in your privileged world where you get to play and have fun and throw around dangerous and damaging phrases like "it's why sikhs get attacked for looking like terrorists"


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## chazSingh (Mar 8, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> You have a blind spot, a scotoma.  Instead of condescending to me telling me "re-read and re-read again and again" (what am I, a freaking third grader?), try to understand what I'm saying, take a look at what you wrote, and try to understand the hidden biases in your language and your thinking.
> 
> The construction of the sentence gives it away, regardless of your claims otherwise.
> 
> When you have enough respect and humility to examine your own hidden bias and psychological conditioning, come back and let's have a chat.  Until then, remain in your privileged world where you get to play and have fun and throw around dangerous and damaging phrases like "it's why sikhs get attacked for looking like terrorists"



hello ji...

google sikhs getting attacked terrorists..

and you will come across many stories of sikhs getting attacked because the attackers in ignorance think they are terrorists...due to the turban and beard (associated with osama bin ladin)

now...before you state that 'I' am being dangerous by saying sikhs get attacked for looking like terrorists...

please understand, that is not what i'm saying...i don;t think myself (turban wearing) or any other sikh looks like a terrorist...i'm saying others have thought that, which is dangerous because they 'generalize' when an image of a terrorist is put before them in the media.

i would love to converse with you...but even after i have explained this in a past message you still slam me for apparently suggesting that sikhs look like terrorists..

serious dude...i like talking to you, but its like going round in circles 

god bless

and..there wasn't one bit of anger, hate, oe any other negative feeling in me when writing this..just in case you somehow decide to think there was...


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## broken (Mar 8, 2016)

Respect all faiths. Respect all paths. Respect all others. Respect opposing views.

Unlike others I know that due to my health I have a finite number of days before I enter the realm of obscurity. For this reason I attempt to live conflict free, including within my thought life.

I encourage you, my friends, to strive for peace and love. Accept each other for the weirdo we all are. For the struggle we all face. For the fear we all possess. For the love we all seek.

Our Creator, reveals to us, each, in a fashion that we understand. So let's not argue (or any other term that represents whatever you think is happening here other than argue) about our independent thoughts, considerations and revelations of this Creator who cares for us in such a grand fashion.

There is enough hate, fear, confusion and ignorance of the path we walk along together. There's enough of that outside, let's not allow that within.


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 8, 2016)

broken said:


> Unlike others I know that due to my health I have a finite number of days before I enter the realm of obscurity. For this reason I attempt to live conflict free, including within my thought life.



It may seem like a good idea at first, but you of all people should have realized by now that there is no such thing as a conflict-free life.  As long as you are dealing with other human beings, you will encounter some level of conflict.  And if you avoid all contact with all humans, you might still be conflicted within yourself.



broken said:


> I encourage you, my friends, to strive for peace and love. Accept each other for the weirdo we all are. For the struggle we all face. For the fear we all possess. For the love we all seek.



What you're really saying is that you want to avoid the unpleasant emotions associated with conflict.  Is it not possible for you to accept and love someone with whom you are in conflict with?  Then what of all this talk about how enlightened you've become and how you've "let God out" and all that stuff?  If it won't even let you love and accept someone until they agree with you, it's quite a narrow minded view after all.



broken said:


> Our Creator, reveals to us, each, in a fashion that we understand. So let's not argue (or any other term that represents whatever you think is happening here other than argue) about our independent thoughts, considerations and revelations of this Creator who cares for us in such a grand fashion.



What's so wrong or bad about arguing?  Why does it offend your Creator so much when we argue?  Aren't the most meaningful and long-lasting lessons learned after an argument?  How would you propose that differences are resolved, that unity is created, and then understanding and learning is achieved?  By everyone sitting around and singing _kumbaya_ and having a group hug?  Is this Creator of yours all sunshine and rainbows?  Then where does the hurricane, the tornado, the black clouds, all the dark energy, where does that all come from?  Is it not from the same Creator?  Or are you disavowing yourself of all that because it's uncomfortable, unpleasant and unknown and scary?



broken said:


> There is enough hate, fear, confusion and ignorance of the path we walk along together. There's enough of that outside, let's not allow that within.



There's too much ignorance, probably 99% ignorance .  It all begins as you know _inside_.  Everyone here is trying to work on themselves.  Where have you come up with this idea that we're all pristine and pure on the inside, and all the hate, fear, confusion is on the outside?  Everything is on the inside!  Nothing is outside.

Perhaps you feel more fragile now than you did before.  Perhaps you realize there is more to life than you ever stopped to consider before.  And that's a wonderful realization.  But please have the decency not to assume that everyone is a brainless idiot who hasn't done any sort of soul-searching.  Have enough respect for others to understand that their path may be different than yours has been.

Cheerio,
[AoG]


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## broken (Mar 8, 2016)

AoG, you never let me down. You are truly the funniest person I have ever been in contact with. 

Thank you,


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 8, 2016)

broken said:


> AoG, you never let me down. You are truly the funniest person I have ever been in contact with.



So if you don't have anything useful to say, you resort to belittling and putting other people down?  That's rich coming from someone who is supposedly pining for peace and love.

Be the change you wish to see in the world!

[AoG]

p.s. try a little humility, a little respect, and little understanding.  Your holier than thou attitude combined with insulting those who don't agree with you is really off-putting.  In other words, don't be a jerk.


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## broken (Mar 8, 2016)

Wow. I am so sorry. I never meant for you to take insult to what I say.

I truly found a great deal of humor in your response. If you meant it another way then I accept responsibility for not being aware.

I apologize. Truly.


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## Ishna (Mar 8, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Please tell me how one serves the divine light in everyone?



Sorry for just jumping in - I haven't had time to keep up with this thread.

To me, there is no one except Guruji.  Our individuality is just our temporary ego.  Take the ego away, and only Guruji has the steering wheel.

When someone disrespects you, it's their ego doing it.  Sikhs know the ego is just fluff, and know that underneath that, is just Guruji.  THAT is what we serve.  THAT is how we can be compassionate to people.  THAT is what we want to try to wake people up to, so they don't act so mean in ego, and find peace and productivity by seeing the Light in all (including themselves).


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## Ishna (Mar 8, 2016)

I need to have a look at this thread in more detail, but for now, just a kind reminder to everyone of our new Code of Forum Etiquette:

_Discussions about religion, philosophy, faith, ways of life / lifestyles, and traditions are often held very close to the heart and differences of opinion will always exist. It’s best to disagree with the issue, and not the poster. Remember, there is a real person on the other side of the screen, who has an opinion due to their experiences, education and understanding. Be respectful of your fellow SPN’ers and treat others as you’d like to be treated._​


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## Parma (Mar 10, 2016)

How are £1 Billion mouths going to look with out dental floss though and they say that I'm not good enough to be a fashion show model lol. Now that's a new type of clothing range. Like the old great plastic MJ said; it's black it's white; yeah yeah yeah yah yah yah Jokers. And so the philosophy on Grey being a sensible colour makes sense. To all sat sanatorium sangat. Bite lol


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## Ishna (Mar 10, 2016)

Parma said:


> How are £1 Billion mouths going to look with out dental floss though and they say that I'm not good enough to be a fashion show model lol. Now that's a new type of clothing range. Like the old great plastic MJ said; it's black it's white; yeah yeah yeah yah yah yah Jokers. And so the philosophy on Grey being a sensible colour makes sense. To all sat sanatorium sangat. Bite lol


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