# Why Desire To End Reincarnation?



## Ozarks (Aug 31, 2009)

Is it for a union with the Creator or a desire to free yourself from the Creation?


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## lalihayer (Aug 31, 2009)

ਕਬੀਰ  ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ  ਇਕ  ਸਿਉ  ਕੀਏ  ਆਨ  ਦੁਬਿਧਾ  ਜਾਇ  ॥

Edited with translaiton. See below.

Please forgive me Lallihayer ji, but forum rules require the English as well as the Gurmukhi. Ozarks ji did not provide the translation either. however, the verse is in his signature line. Your point nonetheless is profound in the context of any discussion about reincarnation. Hope forum members will think about it. Narayanjot Kaur

 ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
  kabeer preeth eik sio keeeae aan dhubidhhaa jaae ||
  Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.


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## Hardip Singh (Sep 1, 2009)

Offcourse Ozark jeo, our only & only aim is to unite with HIM, the Creator and nothing else. Creator is always greator than HIS Creation.


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## kiram (Sep 1, 2009)

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Baarah Maah, Raag Maajh, Ghar Chautha :

*ਮੰਘਿਰਿ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਸੋਹੰਦੀਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਿਰ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਬੈਠੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਤਿਨ  ਕੀ  ਸੋਭਾ  ਕਿਆ  ਗਣੀ  ਜਿ  ਸਾਹਿਬਿ  ਮੇਲੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੁ  ਮਉਲਿਆ  ਰਾਮ  ਸਿਉ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਸਾਧ  ਸਹੇਲੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਸਾਧ  ਜਨਾ  ਤੇ  ਬਾਹਰੀ  ਸੇ  ਰਹਨਿ  ਇਕੇਲੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਤਿਨ  ਦੁਖੁ  ਨ  ਕਬਹੂ  ਉਤਰੈ  ਸੇ  ਜਮ  ਕੈ  ਵਸਿ  ਪੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਜਿਨੀ  ਰਾਵਿਆ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਆਪਣਾ  ਸੇ  ਦਿਸਨਿ  ਨਿਤ  ਖੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਰਤਨ  ਜਵੇਹਰ  ਲਾਲ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੰਠਿ  ਤਿਨਾ  ਜੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਨਾਨਕ  ਬਾਂਛੈ  ਧੂੜਿ  ਤਿਨ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਸਰਣੀ  ਦਰਿ  ਪੜੀਆਹ  ॥ ਮੰਘਿਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਆਰਾਧਣਾ  ਬਹੁੜਿ  ਨ  ਜਨਮੜੀਆਹ  ॥੧੦॥ *


Mangẖir māhi sohanḏī▫ā har pir sang baiṯẖ▫ṛī▫āh. Ŧin kī sobẖā ki▫ā gaṇī jė sāhib melṛī▫āh. Ŧan man ma▫oli▫ā rām si▫o sang sāḏẖ sahelṛī▫āh. Sāḏẖ janā ṯe bāhrī se rahan ikelaṛī▫āh. Ŧin ḏukẖ na kabhū uṯrai se jam kai vas paṛī▫āh. Jinī rāvi▫ā parabẖ āpṇā se ḏisan niṯ kẖaṛī▫āh. Raṯan javehar lāl har kanṯẖ ṯinā jaṛī▫āh. Nānak bāŉcẖẖai ḏẖūṛ ṯin parabẖ sarṇī ḏar paṛī▫āh. Mangẖir parabẖ ārāḏẖaṇā bahuṛ na janamṛī▫āh. ||10|| 


In Maghar beautiful are they who sit with their Beloved God. How can their glory be measured whom the Lord blends with Himself? The body and mind of those who have the companionship of saints bloom with the Pervading God. They, who are without the society of the pious persons, dwell all alone. Their pain never departs and they fall under the clutches of the death's minister. They, who have enjoyed their Lord, are ever seen standing in His service. Their neck is set with the jewels, emeralds and rubies of God's Name. Nanak desires the dust of the feet of those who fall for shelter at the Lord's door. They, who meditate on the Master in the month of Maghar are not born again. 


ਮੰਘਿਰਿ = ਮੰਘਰ ਵਿਚ। ਮਾਹਿ = ਮਹੀਨੇ ਵਿਚ। ਪਿਰ ਸੰਗਿ = ਪਤੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ। ਕਿਆ ਗਣੀ = ਮੈਂ ਕੀਹ ਦੱਸਾਂ? ਬਿਆਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਜਿ = ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ। ਸਾਹਿਬਿ = ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ। ਰਾਮ ਸਿਉ = ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨਾਲ। ਸਾਧ ਸਹੇਲੜੀਆਹ ਸੰਗਿ = ਸਤ ਸੰਗੀਆਂ ਨਾਲ। ਬਾਹਰੀ = ਬਿਨਾ। ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਦਿਸਹਿ = ਦਿੱਸਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਖੜੀਆਹ = ਸਾਵਧਾਨ, ਸੁਚੇਤ। ਕੰਠਿ = ਗਲ ਵਿਚ (ਭਾਵ, ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ)। ਬਾਂਛੈ = ਮੰਗਦਾ ਹੈ। ਦਰਿ = ਦਰ ਉਤੇ। ਬਹੁੜਿ = ਮੁੜ, ਫਿਰ।੧੦।

ਮੱਘਰ (ਦੇ ਠੰਢੇ-ਮਿੱਠੇ) ਮਹੀਨੇ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਸੋਹਣੀਆਂ ਲੱਗਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਜੋ ਹਰੀ-ਪਤੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਬੈਠੀਆਂ ਹੁੰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਾ ਲਿਆ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬਿਆਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਸਤ-ਸੰਗੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ (ਚਿੱਤ ਜੋੜ ਕੇ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਸਦਾ ਖਿੜਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਜੇਹੜੀਆਂ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਸਤਸੰਗੀਆਂ (ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ) ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੀਆਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਇਕੱਲੀਆਂ (ਛੁੱਟੜ) ਹੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ (ਜਿਵੇਂ ਸੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਤਿਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਬੂਟਾ ਪੈਲੀ ਵਿਚ ਨਿਖਸਮਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਕੱਲੀ ਨਿਖਸਮੀ ਜਿੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕ ਕਈ ਵੈਰੀ ਆ ਕੇ ਘੇਰ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤੇ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਉਪਜਿਆ) ਦੁੱਖ ਕਦੇ ਲਹਿੰਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ, ਉਹ ਜਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਪਈਆਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਪਤੀ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਸਾਥ ਮਾਣਿਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੱਲੇ ਵਲੋਂ) ਸਦਾ ਸੁਚੇਤ ਦਿੱਸਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ (ਵਿਕਾਰ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਚੋਟ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਨੁਵਾਦ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰੋਤੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਹੀਰੇ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਤੇ ਲਾਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਗਲ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਨਾਨਕ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਸਤਸੰਗੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਧੂੜ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ ਪਏ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮੱਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਵਾਪਰਦਾ।੧੦। 

Ang. 135


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks Kiram ji..for yet another flight into sheer Bliss...among all the mundane argumentative posts...:happy:


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## harbansj24 (Sep 1, 2009)

Bhai Vir Singh ji says that natural aim of any soul is to unite with the Infinite Creator.  But only a pure soul bereft of any dark spots can submerge into the Infinite.

   Naam Simran is the process of cleansing the soul. As the soul gets cleansed, a strange sense of pure joy or Chardi Kalan starts enveloping the person. Of co{censored} we being ordinary mortals do tend to slide back but Naam again puts one back on the track. It is a case of two steps forward and one step backward. It is a continuos process which ends only when the soul is completely cleansed. When the soul is completely cleansed, the persom becomes "Jeevan Mukat" or he has merged himself with the Supreme Being in his life time. _It is not necessary to die to attain the merger._

We do not have to know, bother or worry about our past Karams or Births because we will not be able to know or understand it. Our aim in the present birth is only attain unity with Him by cleansing the soul completely.
There is no such thing as being punished or rewarded for the past karams in another janam. _The aim is only to attain purity of soul._

       I am unable to replicate here the wondrous process as described by Bhai Vir Singh ji. This has to be read and savoured or listened from a blessed person to have an impact.


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## Ozarks (Sep 1, 2009)

harbansj24 said:


> Naam Simran is the process of cleansing the soul. As the soul gets cleansed, a strange sense of pure joy or Chardi Kalan starts enveloping the person.
> [/FONT]


Harbansj24 Ji,
I find this portion of your reply quite interesting. Last week there was a day that I felt, well for lack of better words; ridiculously joyful/happy. I say "ridiculous" because there was not clear reason for the mood/feeling. A desire to smile, a true contentment and peace. Very much not like me most days, especially on a Monday/work day. The feeling was still there the next day, but perhaps a little subdued and then a little more so the next until "back to normal". The only thing I could think of to "blame it on" was a realization I had that weekend about the infinite compassion and patience of the Creator. It was very nice and fairly uncharacteristic. A co-worker even commented. 
I just thought I'd share.


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## kiram (Sep 2, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Thanks Kiram ji..for yet another flight into sheer Bliss...among all the mundane argumentative posts...:happy:


Fateh Gyani Ji, there is so much Guru Maharaj has blessed us all with through every Shabad ji.. Here is another beautiful Shabad ji that am very fond of : 

Guru Ram Das Ji in Raag Gujree :

 *ਰਾਗੁ  ਗੂਜਰੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੪  ॥ ਹਰਿ  ਕੇ  ਜਨ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਤਪੁਰਖਾ  ਬਿਨਉ  ਕਰਉ  ਗੁਰ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥ ਹਮ  ਕੀਰੇ  ਕਿਰਮ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਰਣਾਈ  ਕਰਿ  ਦਇਆ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥੧॥ *


Rāg gūjrī mėhlā 4. Har ke jan saṯgur saṯpurkẖā bina▫o kara▫o gur pās. Ham kīre kiram saṯgur sarṇā▫ī kar ḏa▫i▫ā nām pargās. ||1|| 


Gujri Measure, Fourth Guru. O my Great Sat Guru, the accepted one of the Lord and the True Person, I make a supplication before Thee. I, an insect and a worm, have sought Thy shelter, mercifully bestow on me the light of God's Name, O True Guru!


ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਜਨ = ਹੇ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕ! ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ = ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ! ਸਤ ਪੁਰਖਾ = ਹੇ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਗੁਰੂ! ਬਿਨਉ = {विनय} ਬੇਨਤੀ। ਕਰਉ = ਕਰਉਂ, ਮੈਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ = ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ! ਤੇਰੇ ਪਾਸ। ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ = ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ! ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਨ। ਕੀਰੇ ਕਿਰਮ = ਨਿਮਾਣੇ ਦੀਨ ਜੀਵ। ਪਰਗਾਸਿ = ਪਰਗਟ ਕਰ, ਚਾਨਣ ਕਰ।੧।

ਹੇ ਮਹਾਪੁਰਖ ਗੁਰੂ! ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਮੈਂ, ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ! ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ-ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਮੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਚਾਨਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ। ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਮੈਂ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਨ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ।੧। 

 *ਮੇਰੇ  ਮੀਤ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਮੋ  ਕਉ  ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਪ੍ਰਾਨ  ਸਖਾਈ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੀਰਤਿ  ਹਮਰੀ  ਰਹਰਾਸਿ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ *


Mere mīṯ gurḏev mo ka▫o rām nām pargās. Gurmaṯ nām merā parān sakẖā▫ī har kīraṯ hamrī rahrās. ||1|| rahā▫o. 


O My friend, the bright Guru! Illumine me with the Name of the Omnipresent Lord. The Name revealed to me by Guru's instruction is the friend of my very life and God's praise is my life's vocation. Pause.


ਮੋ ਕਉ = ਮੈਨੂੰ, ਮੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ। ਮੀਤ = ਹੇ ਮਿੱਤਰ! ਗੁਰਮਤਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ (ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ)। ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਸਖਾਈ = ਜਿੰਦ ਦਾ ਸਾਥੀ। ਕੀਰਤਿ = ਸੋਭਾ, ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ। ਰਹਰਾਸਿ = ਰਾਹ ਦੀ ਰਾਸਿ, ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਸਫ਼ਰ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਖ਼ਰਚੀ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਿੱਤਰ ਗੁਰੂ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਚਾਨਣ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼। ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦ ਦਾ ਸਾਥੀ (ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹੇ), ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੇਰੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਸਫ਼ਰ ਲਈ ਰਾਸਿ-ਪੂੰਜੀ ਬਣੀ ਰਹੇ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ। 

 *ਹਰਿ  ਜਨ  ਕੇ  ਵਡ  ਭਾਗ  ਵਡੇਰੇ  ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਸਰਧਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਿਆਸ  ॥ ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸਹਿ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਗੁਣ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥੨॥ *


Har jan ke vad bẖāg vadere jin har har sarḏẖā har pi▫ās. Har har nām milai ṯaripṯāsahi mil sangaṯ guṇ pargās. ||2|| 


The greatest good fortune is of the people of God who have faith in the Lord Master and thirst for God. By obtaining the Name of the Lord God they are satiated and by meeting the society of saints their virtues shine forth.


ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸਹਿ = ਰੱਜ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮਿਲਿ = ਮਿਲ ਕੇ।੨।

ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਬੜੇ ਉੱਚੇ ਭਾਗ ਹਨ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਹੈ, ਖਿੱਚ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਵਲੋਂ) ਰੱਜ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਭਲੇ) ਗੁਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ।੨। 

 *ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਤੇ  ਭਾਗਹੀਣ  ਜਮ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥ ਜੋ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਰਣਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਨਹੀ  ਆਏ  ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ  ਜੀਵੇ  ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ  ਜੀਵਾਸਿ  ॥੩॥ *


Jin har har har ras nām na pā▫i▫ā ṯe bẖāghīṇ jam pās. Jo saṯgur saraṇ sangaṯ nahī ā▫e ḏẖarig jīve ḏẖarig jīvās. ||3|| 


They who have not gained God, God's elixir and God's Name are unfortunate and are near (handed over to) the minister of death. Fie on the life and accursed the hope of living of those who have not sought the society and protection of the Sat Guru.


ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵੇ = ਲਾਹਨਤ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵੇ ਨੂੰ।੩।

ਪਰ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਇਆ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਿਆ, ਉਹ ਬਦ-ਕਿਸਮਤ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਜਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ (ਪਏ ਹੋਏ ਸਮਝੋ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ)। ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੇ, ਜੋ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੈਠਦੇ, ਲਾਹਨਤ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਊਣ ਨੂੰ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਜੀਊਣਾ ਫਿਟਕਾਰ-ਜੋਗ ਹੈ।੩। 

 *ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਨ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਪਾਈ  ਤਿਨ  ਧੁਰਿ  ਮਸਤਕਿ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਲਿਖਾਸਿ  ॥ ਧਨੁ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥੪॥੪॥ *


Jin har jan saṯgur sangaṯ pā▫ī ṯin ḏẖur masṯak likẖi▫ā likẖās. Ḏẖan ḏẖan saṯsangaṯ jiṯ har ras pā▫i▫ā mil jan Nānak nām pargās. ||4||4|| 


The men of God, who have obtained the society of the True Guru, they have, on their fore-heads the pro-ordained writ. Blest, blest is the saints congregation from where God's elixir is procured. By meeting God's own, O Nanak! manifest becomes Lord's Name. 


ਧੁਰਿ = ਧੁਰ ਤੋਂ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵਲੋਂ। ਮਸਤਕਿ = ਮੱਥੇ ਉੱਤੇ। ਲਿਖਾਸਿ = ਲੇਖ {ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਜੀਵਾਸਿ' ਅਤੇ 'ਲਿਖਾਸਿ' ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਜੀਵੇ' ਅਤੇ 'ਲੇਖ' ਤੋਂ ਬਦਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ ਤੁਕਾਂਤ ਪੂਰਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ}। ਜਿਤੁ = ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ, ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਮਿਲਿ ਜਨ = ਜਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ।੪।

ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠਣਾ ਨਸੀਬ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ, (ਸਮਝੋ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਧੁਰੋਂ ਹੀ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੇਖ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਸਤਸੰਗ! ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਸਤਸੰਗ! ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ (ਬੈਠਿਆਂ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਆਨੰਦ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਥੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਿਆਂ (ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ) ਨਾਮ ਆ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ।੪।੪। 


Ang. 10


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2009)

To me, this says it all

*ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਤੇ  ਭਾਗਹੀਣ  ਜਮ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥ਜੋ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਰਣਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਨਹੀ  ਆਏ  ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ  ਜੀਵੇ  ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ  ਜੀਵਾਸਿ  ॥੩॥*


Jin har har har ras nām na pā▫i▫ā ṯe bẖāghīṇ jam pās.Jo saṯgur saraṇ sangaṯ nahī ā▫e ḏẖarig jīve ḏẖarig jīvās. ||3||


They who have not gained God, God's elixir and God's Name are unfortunate and are near (handed over to) the minister of death.Fie on the life and accursed the hope of living of those who have not sought the society and protection of the Sat Guru.


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## Satyaban (Sep 2, 2009)

Kiram ji:
Can you help me understand the following passage.
"In Maghar beautiful are they who sit with their Beloved God.How can their glory be measured whom the Lord blends with Himself?The body and mind of those who have the companionship of saints bloom with the Pervading God.They, who are without the society of the pious persons, dwell all alone.Their pain never departs and they fall under the clutches of the death's minister.They, who have enjoyed their Lord, are ever seen standing in His service.Their neck is set with the jewels, emeralds and rubies of God's Name.Nanak desires the dust of the feet of those who fall for shelter at the Lord's door.They, who meditate on the Master in the month of Maghar are not born again."

It begins describing a person who is pious ( have the companionship of saints ) and has long served God ( are ever seen standing in His service ). Is it then after this spiritual journey that he is then freed from rebirth?
Is that last sentence a metaphor for the final stage of life? Finally is this portion ( Their pain never departs and they fall under the clutches of the death's minister ) to mean they are to be reborn?

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 2, 2009)

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I want to thank Kiram ji for posting the excellent Shabad that we chant everyday while doing Rehraas. I also want to thank her to add the interpretation in Punjabi and also the literal translation in English. However, it is sad to notice how the English literal translation has distorted the true message our 4th Guru is trying to give us.

Allow me to share my thoughts regarding this.


Guru Ram Das Ji in Raag Gujree :

 *ਰਾਗੁ  ਗੂਜਰੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੪  ॥ਹਰਿ  ਕੇ  ਜਨ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਤਪੁਰਖਾ  ਬਿਨਉ  ਕਰਉ  ਗੁਰ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥ਹਮ  ਕੀਰੇ  ਕਿਰਮ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਰਣਾਈ  ਕਰਿ  ਦਇਆ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥੧॥ *


Rāg gūjrī mėhlā 4.Har ke jan saṯgur saṯpurkẖā bina▫o kara▫o gur pās.Ham kīre kiram saṯgur sarṇā▫ī kar ḏa▫i▫ā nām pargās. ||1||


Literal translation:
Gujri Measure, Fourth Guru.O my Great Sat Guru, the accepted one of the Lord and the True Person, I make a supplication before Thee.I, an insect and a worm, have sought Thy shelter, mercifully bestow on me the light of God's Name, O True Guru!

Interpretation:
I plead to you my Satguru, please allow me to find connection with you, in me. Please take away the darkness that has set within. Please light my unlit amber.

I am like the lowest of the low worm, I have come to you, my Ik Ong Kaar to request you to bestow me with your grace so that I can grow from the within, with your blessing.

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਜਨ = ਹੇ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕ! ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ = ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ! ਸਤ ਪੁਰਖਾ = ਹੇ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਗੁਰੂ! ਬਿਨਉ = {विनय} ਬੇਨਤੀ। ਕਰਉ = ਕਰਉਂ, ਮੈਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ = ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ! ਤੇਰੇ ਪਾਸ। ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ = ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ! ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਨ। ਕੀਰੇ ਕਿਰਮ = ਨਿਮਾਣੇ ਦੀਨ ਜੀਵ। ਪਰਗਾਸਿ = ਪਰਗਟ ਕਰ, ਚਾਨਣ ਕਰ।੧।

ਹੇ ਮਹਾਪੁਰਖ ਗੁਰੂ! ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਮੈਂ, ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ! ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ-ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਮੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਚਾਨਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ। ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਮੈਂ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਨ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ।੧। 

 *ਮੇਰੇ  ਮੀਤ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਮੋ  ਕਉ  ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥ਗੁਰਮਤਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਪ੍ਰਾਨ  ਸਖਾਈ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੀਰਤਿ  ਹਮਰੀ  ਰਹਰਾਸਿ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥*


Mere mīṯ gurḏev mo ka▫o rām nām pargās.Gurmaṯ nām merā parān sakẖā▫ī har kīraṯ hamrī rahrās. ||1|| rahā▫o.


Literal Translation: 
O My friend, the bright Guru! Illumine me with the Name of the Omnipresent Lord.The Name revealed to me by Guru's instruction is the friend of my very life and God's praise is my life's vocation. Pause.

Interpretation:
Oh, my mate, my friend, please give me the tools which I can use to breed goodness within so that I can share that with others. Make these tools my life partners. Bestow this inner GPS to me Ik Ong Kaar, so that I can lead my life in the right direction with your guidance- Rahao.


ਮੋ ਕਉ = ਮੈਨੂੰ, ਮੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ। ਮੀਤ = ਹੇ ਮਿੱਤਰ! ਗੁਰਮਤਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ (ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ)। ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਸਖਾਈ = ਜਿੰਦ ਦਾ ਸਾਥੀ। ਕੀਰਤਿ = ਸੋਭਾ, ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ। ਰਹਰਾਸਿ = ਰਾਹ ਦੀ ਰਾਸਿ, ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਸਫ਼ਰ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਖ਼ਰਚੀ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਿੱਤਰ ਗੁਰੂ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਚਾਨਣ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼। ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦ ਦਾ ਸਾਥੀ (ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹੇ), ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੇਰੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਸਫ਼ਰ ਲਈ ਰਾਸਿ-ਪੂੰਜੀ ਬਣੀ ਰਹੇ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ। 

 *ਹਰਿ  ਜਨ  ਕੇ  ਵਡ  ਭਾਗ  ਵਡੇਰੇ  ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਸਰਧਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਿਆਸ  ॥ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸਹਿ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਗੁਣ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥੨॥*


Har jan ke vad bẖāg vadere jin har har sarḏẖā har pi▫ās.Har har nām milai ṯaripṯāsahi mil sangaṯ guṇ pargās. ||2||


Literal Translation: 
The greatest good fortune is of the people of God who have faith in the Lord Master and thirst for God.By obtaining the Name of the Lord God they are satiated and by meeting the society of saints their virtues shine forth.

Interpretation:
Lucky and fortunate are those who are in love with Ik Ong Kaar,who are attracted towards The Source like iron towards The Magnet.

When they have found connection with The One through Sadh Sangat, then all their hunger is taken care of and their inner thirst is quenched. All their desires are fulfilled.


ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸਹਿ = ਰੱਜ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮਿਲਿ = ਮਿਲ ਕੇ।੨।

ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਬੜੇ ਉੱਚੇ ਭਾਗ ਹਨ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਹੈ, ਖਿੱਚ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਵਲੋਂ) ਰੱਜ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਭਲੇ) ਗੁਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ।੨। 

 *ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਤੇ  ਭਾਗਹੀਣ  ਜਮ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥ਜੋ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਰਣਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਨਹੀ  ਆਏ  ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ  ਜੀਵੇ  ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ  ਜੀਵਾਸਿ  ॥੩॥*


Jin har har har ras nām na pā▫i▫ā ṯe bẖāghīṇ jam pās.Jo saṯgur saraṇ sangaṯ nahī ā▫e ḏẖarig jīve ḏẖarig jīvās. ||3||


Literal translation:
They who have not gained God, God's elixir and God's Name are unfortunate and are near (handed over to) the minister of death.Fie on the life and accursed the hope of living of those who have not sought the society and protection of the Sat Guru.

Interpretation:
They are the unfortunate ones, who have failed to find the connection with Ik Ong Kaar and are the dead men walking. They are lost within themselves, are directionless and have created their own Hell on this Earth by ignoring the company of those- Sadh Sangat- who have found their inner GPS by loving Ik Ong Kaar.


ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵੇ = ਲਾਹਨਤ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵੇ ਨੂੰ।੩।

ਪਰ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਇਆ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਿਆ, ਉਹ ਬਦ-ਕਿਸਮਤ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਜਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ (ਪਏ ਹੋਏ ਸਮਝੋ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ)। ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੇ, ਜੋ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੈਠਦੇ, ਲਾਹਨਤ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਊਣ ਨੂੰ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਜੀਊਣਾ ਫਿਟਕਾਰ-ਜੋਗ ਹੈ।੩। 

 *ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਨ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਪਾਈ  ਤਿਨ  ਧੁਰਿ  ਮਸਤਕਿ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਲਿਖਾਸਿ  ॥ਧਨੁ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਿ  ॥੪॥੪॥*


Jin har jan saṯgur sangaṯ pā▫ī ṯin ḏẖur masṯak likẖi▫ā likẖās.Ḏẖan ḏẖan saṯsangaṯ jiṯ har ras pā▫i▫ā mil jan Nānak nām pargās. ||4||4||


Literal translation:
The men of God, who have obtained the society of the True Guru, they have, on their fore-heads the pro-ordained writ.Blest, blest is the saints congregation from where God's elixir is procured. By meeting God's own, O Nanak! manifest becomes Lord's Name.

Interpretation:
And those who have discovered the company of the fortunate lovers of Ik Ong Kaar, can be found with a unique glow on their faces as if their good fortune is written on their foreheads for all to see.

Hey Nanak, that Sangat is blessed with His grace through whom one can find The One within.


ਧੁਰਿ = ਧੁਰ ਤੋਂ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵਲੋਂ। ਮਸਤਕਿ = ਮੱਥੇ ਉੱਤੇ। ਲਿਖਾਸਿ = ਲੇਖ {ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਜੀਵਾਸਿ' ਅਤੇ 'ਲਿਖਾਸਿ' ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਜੀਵੇ' ਅਤੇ 'ਲੇਖ' ਤੋਂ ਬਦਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ ਤੁਕਾਂਤ ਪੂਰਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ}। ਜਿਤੁ = ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ, ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਮਿਲਿ ਜਨ = ਜਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ।੪।

ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠਣਾ ਨਸੀਬ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ, (ਸਮਝੋ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਧੁਰੋਂ ਹੀ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੇਖ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਸਤਸੰਗ! ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਸਤਸੰਗ! ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ (ਬੈਠਿਆਂ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਆਨੰਦ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਥੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਿਆਂ (ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ) ਨਾਮ ਆ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ।੪।੪। 


Ang. 10


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## kiram (Sep 3, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Karim ji:
> Can you help me understand the following passage.
> "In Maghar beautiful are they who sit with their Beloved God.How can their glory be measured whom the Lord blends with Himself?The body and mind of those who have the companionship of saints bloom with the Pervading God.They, who are without the society of the pious persons, dwell all alone.Their pain never departs and they fall under the clutches of the death's minister.They, who have enjoyed their Lord, are ever seen standing in His service.Their neck is set with the jewels, emeralds and rubies of God's Name.Nanak desires the dust of the feet of those who fall for shelter at the Lord's door.They, who meditate on the Master in the month of Maghar are not born again."
> 
> ...




Satyaban ji, with due respect ji and with my "limited understanding" i have tried to explain the above Shabad in my own words ji.. I do believe as Guru Maharaj has repeatedly stated that in the company of the "Sadh", one is freed from the cycle of birth and death Ji.. Here is my understanding of the paawan Shabad of Manghar... Kindly correct me wherever i have misinterpreted or failed Ji :

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maanjh :
In the month of Manghar, those soul brides look beautiful, happy who are 
united with their husband Lord.. who have Him beside them.. 
Those soul brides whom the Lord unites with Him; their beauty cannot be 
spoken about or expressed.. 

In the company of sadh sangat, while their minds are imbued in the praise 
and love for the Akaalpurakh, their body and minds are always rejoicing and 
happy.. However, those soul brides who are without the sangat of the sadh, they are alone .. In such a situation those without their husband Lord are surrouded by the five evil forces, and their pain never leaves them as they are drowned in the clutches of death.. 

However those soul brides who have been blessed with the company of the 
husband Lord, they are free from the five evil forces as they are so imbued in the praise of the Akaalpurakh.. The name of the Akaalpurakh is the jewel that these soul brides are bedecked with... 

Guru Nanak Dev Ji asks for the  dust of such sadh sangat's feet, who are 
always imbued in the Name of the Lord... who's minds are forever at the feet of the Akaalpurakh... In the month of Manghar, those who remember [who's minds are imbued in the love of the] Lord, they do not have to come and go as in re-incarnation... They are freed from the cycle of birth and death...


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## Randip Singh (Sep 3, 2009)

This is my view:

When we are in animal form we are obsessed with Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar. It is possible to be human but still act like an animal when we are like this.

Union and realisation of Waheguru free's us from the pain that these 5 thieves begin.

If you want, I want to free myself from this pain.

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Page 2

ਫੇਰਿ  ਕਿ  ਅਗੈ  ਰਖੀਐ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਦਿਸੈ  ਦਰਬਾਰੁ  ॥ 
फेरि कि अगै रखीऐ जितु दिसै दरबारु ॥ 
Fer kė agai rakẖī▫ai jiṯ ḏisai ḏarbār. 
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court? 

ਮੁਹੌ  ਕਿ  ਬੋਲਣੁ  ਬੋਲੀਐ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਸੁਣਿ  ਧਰੇ  ਪਿਆਰੁ  ॥ 
मुहौ कि बोलणु बोलीऐ जितु सुणि धरे पिआरु ॥ 
Muhou kė bolaṇ bolī▫ai jiṯ suṇ ḏẖare pi▫ār. 
What words can we speak to evoke His Love? 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਵੇਲਾ  ਸਚੁ  ਨਾਉ  ਵਡਿਆਈ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
अम्रित वेला सचु नाउ वडिआई वीचारु ॥ 
Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār. 
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness. 

ਕਰਮੀ  ਆਵੈ  ਕਪੜਾ  ਨਦਰੀ  ਮੋਖੁ  ਦੁਆਰੁ  ॥ 
करमी आवै कपड़ा नदरी मोखु दुआरु ॥ 
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār. 
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਏਵੈ  ਜਾਣੀਐ  ਸਭੁ  ਆਪੇ  ਸਚਿਆਰੁ  ॥੪॥ 
नानक एवै जाणीऐ सभु आपे सचिआरु ॥४॥ 
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai sabẖ āpe sacẖiār. ||4|| 
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4|| 

ਥਾਪਿਆ  ਨ  ਜਾਇ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਨ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
थापिआ न जाइ कीता न होइ ॥ 
Thāpi▫ā na jā▫e kīṯā na ho▫e. 
He cannot be established, He cannot be created. 

ਆਪੇ  ਆਪਿ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
आपे आपि निरंजनु सोइ ॥ 
Āpe āp niranjan so▫e. 
He Himself is Immaculate and Pure. 

ਜਿਨਿ  ਸੇਵਿਆ  ਤਿਨਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਮਾਨੁ  ॥ 
जिनि सेविआ तिनि पाइआ मानु ॥ 
Jin sevi▫ā ṯin pā▫i▫ā mān. 
Those who serve Him are honored. 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਗਾਵੀਐ  ਗੁਣੀ  ਨਿਧਾਨੁ  ॥ 
नानक गावीऐ गुणी निधानु ॥ 
Nānak gāvī▫ai guṇī niḏẖān. 
O Nanak, sing of the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence. 

ਗਾਵੀਐ  ਸੁਣੀਐ  ਮਨਿ  ਰਖੀਐ  ਭਾਉ  ॥ 
गावीऐ सुणीऐ मनि रखीऐ भाउ ॥ 
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o. 
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love. 

ਦੁਖੁ  ਪਰਹਰਿ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਘਰਿ  ਲੈ  ਜਾਇ  ॥ 
दुखु परहरि सुखु घरि लै जाइ ॥ 
Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e. 
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.


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## Astroboy (Sep 4, 2009)

ਜੋਰੁ  ਨ  ਜੁਗਤੀ  ਛੁਟੈ  ਸੰਸਾਰੁ  ॥ 
जोरु न जुगती छुटै संसारु ॥ 
Jor na jugṯī cẖẖutai sansār. 
No power to find the way to escape from the world. 

Ang 7

ਜਿਸੁ  ਹਥਿ  ਜੋਰੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਵੇਖੈ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
जिसु हथि जोरु करि वेखै सोइ ॥ 
Jis hath jor kar vekẖai so▫e. 
He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all. 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਉਤਮੁ  ਨੀਚੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਇ  ॥੩੩॥ 
नानक उतमु नीचु न कोइ ॥३३॥ 
Nānak uṯam nīcẖ na ko▫e. ||33|| 
O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33|| 

ਰਾਤੀ  ਰੁਤੀ  ਥਿਤੀ  ਵਾਰ  ॥ 
राती रुती थिती वार ॥ 
Rāṯī ruṯī thiṯī vār. 
Nights, days, weeks and seasons; 

ਪਵਣ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਅਗਨੀ  ਪਾਤਾਲ  ॥ 
पवण पाणी अगनी पाताल ॥ 
Pavaṇ pāṇī agnī pāṯāl. 
wind, water, fire and the nether regions - 

ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਧਰਤੀ  ਥਾਪਿ  ਰਖੀ  ਧਰਮ  ਸਾਲ  ॥ 
तिसु विचि धरती थापि रखी धरम साल ॥ 
Ŧis vicẖ ḏẖarṯī thāp rakẖī ḏẖaram sāl. 
in the midst of these, He established the earth as a home for Dharma. 

ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਜੀਅ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ਕੇ  ਰੰਗ  ॥ 
तिसु विचि जीअ जुगति के रंग ॥ 
Ŧis vicẖ jī▫a jugaṯ ke rang. 
Upon it, He placed the various species of beings. 

ਤਿਨ  ਕੇ  ਨਾਮ  ਅਨੇਕ  ਅਨੰਤ  ॥ 
तिन के नाम अनेक अनंत ॥ 
Ŧin ke nām anek ananṯ. 
Their names are uncounted and endless. 

ਕਰਮੀ  ਕਰਮੀ  ਹੋਇ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
करमी करमी होइ वीचारु ॥ 
Karmī karmī ho▫e vīcẖār. 
By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged. 

ਸਚਾ  ਆਪਿ  ਸਚਾ  ਦਰਬਾਰੁ  ॥ 
सचा आपि सचा दरबारु ॥ 
Sacẖā āp sacẖā ḏarbār. 
God Himself is True, and True is His Court. 

ਤਿਥੈ  ਸੋਹਨਿ  ਪੰਚ  ਪਰਵਾਣੁ  ॥ 
तिथै सोहनि पंच परवाणु ॥ 
Ŧithai sohan pancẖ parvāṇ. 
There, in perfect grace and ease, sit the self-elect, the self-realized Saints.


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## Satyaban (Sep 4, 2009)

Kiram ji

That you very much for providing for your understanding of the shabad as I requested while proving mine quite wrong. Since I make no claim of knowledge of scripture that is not my own I doubly in your debt.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Embers (Sep 4, 2009)

I feel the answer is satisfied in the response by Harbans24 Ji. If Harbans24 Ji could point me to the name of the work by Bhai Vir Singh ji which elaborates on the process, I would be grateful to read further, my searches have not been useful.

Here is a very simple overview of action and reincarnation. No doubt in so few words this leads to further questions and could be elaborated on in more depth, but I would like to offer it here should it be of interest to others, who like me, are coming to understand more each day:


Action
1) All actions (karma) have an effect or consequence
2) We have the ability to act, but rarely the ability to determine the outcome of our actions. The analogy of an arrow leaving the bow is useful as one cannot stop the arrow of desire once it leaves our bow nor insure it hits the right target. 
3) Ego and/or identification with our bodies and mind is the cause for most self interested desires e.g. more wealth, property, rewards from helping others.
4) Actions based on desire have a consequence which we must bear, for better or for worse. 
5) To avoid the consequences of our actions we must overcome ego and self-centred desires. Uniting with God (moksha) is the solution. Once we are One with God our apparent actions become spontaneous based on love with God and hence do not bear consequences.
6) A beneficial desire is a desire to break the cycle, as this desire can help lead us to God and freedom.

Reincarnation
1) If we accept everything is one, then everything is recycled in the One-ness of the Creator. Actions are no different; the effects of our actions exist beyond the body because they exist beyond our mortal deaths. Some say our souls are reunited with our karma (consequence of past life actions).
2) Likewise our souls continue to exist and gain a new body/mind on rebirth. 
3) Karma can account for why our bodies/minds are in the situation in which we find ourselves i.e. rich or poor, healthy or sick etc
4) To break the cycle and return to the creator, we must unite and become one with God (moksha).

Kind regards, Ambers.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 4, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Kiram ji
> 
> That you very much for providing for your understanding of the shabad as I requested while proving mine quite wrong. Since I make no claim of knowledge of scripture *that is not my own* I doubly in your debt.
> 
> ...



Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

As mentioned before in my posts to you, SGGS is not any one's private or monopolised scripture unlike the Hindu scriptures which were not allowed to be read by anyone else but the Brahmins. SGGS is for all to savour.  Goodness is like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions sans bias. So when you say it is not your scripture, you are misleading yourself. As said before, knowledge is everyone's friend. It is a personal choice of the individual to become open minded or remain parochial and the latter is what breeds bias and preconcieved superficial notions.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Ps: I am still waiting for your response about the questions I posed you about your religion. Who wrote Lord Shiva's story and when and why was it written and what kind of documentation is there to back the story up?


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## Astroboy (Sep 5, 2009)

*Is there a Lord Shiva on Mars?*

What would you see if you could fly over Mars in a plane and look out the window?     
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





                                          Victoria Crater as seen by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. The crater is about half a mile in diameter.

 It must be something like the thousands of curious, intriguing and spectacular images taken by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera mounted on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.
 The University of Arizona, Tucson, which operates HiRISE, has just released a new batch of these photos taken in the last several months. 
   You can check out the full set here.
 They reveal an alien landscape of craters, valleys, ridges, channels, weird surface patterns and other features in incredible detail.
   Take the stunning image on the left, which shows the muffin-cup-like Victoria Crater, a site once explored by the Mars rover Opportunity.


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## spnadmin (Sep 5, 2009)

I don't get the connection to Shiva... At some point did Ek Oankaar give out specific zones of influence to Shiva and the others - Mars for example. Or are you saying that Shiva can be sighted on Mars  Very confusing.

You know I am one of those slow learners who cannot wrap her mind around the possibility that Shiva is/was a manifestation of the Sat Guru. So more details would be needed. (and hee hee, not more backchannel emails).


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2009)

Namaste

I as some others are a bit confused so I will allow myself to wander a bit.

Namjap ji: I have said before that "???? ?????* is all things seen and unseen and the spaces inbetween

* insert whatever name for The Creator you wish.:yes:

Tejwant ji:

I don't know why you repeat your question when I am sure you know the answer. Are you a lawyer? Your question had no place in our discussions that I could see. I have also been through this drill with Muslims as well.

"Ps: I am still waiting for your response about the questions I posed you about your religion. Who wrote Lord Shiva's story and when and why was it written and what kind of documentation is there to back the story up?"

Also you said:

"As mentioned before in my posts to you, SGGS is not any one's private or monopolised scripture unlike the Hindu scriptures which were not allowed to be read by anyone else but the Brahmins. SGGS is for all to savour. Goodness is like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions sans bias. So when you say it is not your scripture, you are misleading yourself. As said before, knowledge is everyone's friend. It is a personal choice of the individual to become open minded or remain parochial and the latter is what breeds bias and preconcieved superficial notions."

The first sentence of the above quote raises the question what century are you living in? More importantly it reveals a contempt for my faith that you have been trying to hide and frankly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Your tactics are not new all being done with a smile on your face and the mantra "this is how we learn." Your "This is how we learn" is really let me tell you.
 What's more I don't want to be converted.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I don't get the connection to Shiva... At some point did Ek Oankaar give out specific zones of influence to Shiva and the others - Mars for example. Or are you saying that Shiva can be sighted on Mars  Very confusing.
> 
> You know I am one of those slow learners who cannot wrap her mind around the possibility that Shiva is/was a manifestation of the Sat Guru. So more details would be needed. (and hee hee, not more backchannel emails).


 
NK ji

I think namjap ji was just having fun and wanted to show that beautiful picture.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 5, 2009)

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:




> Tejwant ji:
> 
> I don't know why you repeat your question when I am sure you know the answer. Are you a lawyer? Your question had no place in our discussions that I could see. I have also been through this drill with Muslims as well.


Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I do not know either, why you are reluctant to responding and teaching us about your religion. If I had known the answers, there would have been no reason for me to ask you the questions. False assumptions by you once again and you claim to be a private investigator which is interesting to say the least.

What does Islam have to do with Sikhi and what kind of drill are you talking about? Stop with your riddles and be direct and honest about things. Your false assumptions make no sense.

You seem angry and I thought any religion one adheres to, should give the follower the tools to get rid of anger and also teach to give the benefit of the doubt. My bad. It seems that whatever faith you belong to does not do that. Or atleast you have shown your contempt when asked directly about your own faith.

The only reason for me to repeat my question is to learn from you about your religion. As you have asked things that you did not know about Sikhi in this forum, so, I do not know why this insecurity of responding about your own faith and why show this acerbic nature when asked a direct question?

As mentioned before, you always claim to know more about others than about yourself.

So let me ask you again:
Who wrote Lord Shiva's story and when and why was it written and what kind of documentation is there to back the story up?



> Also you said:
> 
> "As mentioned before in my posts to you, SGGS is not any one's private or monopolised scripture unlike the Hindu scriptures which were not allowed to be read by anyone else but the Brahmins. SGGS is for all to savour. Goodness is like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions sans bias. So when you say it is not your scripture, you are misleading yourself. As said before, knowledge is everyone's friend. It is a personal choice of the individual to become open minded or remain parochial and the latter is what breeds bias and preconcieved superficial notions."





> The first sentence of the above quote raises the question what century are you living in?


What does time have to do with my question? Can you please elaborate that? Your claim makes no sense to me. So, I need your help in understanding it.



> More importantly it reveals a contempt for my faith that you have been trying to hide and frankly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Once again you have claimed as your habit has shown in the past, to know more about others than about yourself, which is a shame. You mean stating the facts is a wrong thing? 

Sorry to know that the truth about caste system and that only the Brahmins could read the Hindu scriptures leaves a bad taste in your mouth and rightfully so, it should. Caste system is the worst kind of Apartheid and it is a shame that you want to hold on to it despite being a convert to Hinduism. 

The fact is that Bhagat Ravidas, whose writings are in SGGS was not allowed to enter any temple because of his low caste. 

Your comments show that you are not bothered by that but rather ok with it which is a sad thing to notice.

Now, which century you said we were living in? 



> Your tactics are not new all being done with a smile on your face and the mantra "this is how we learn." Your "This is how we learn" is really let me tell you.


How else do we learn if not by asking questions and expecting honest answers? Please share your wisdom about it. You seem to assume too much and one can see that. 

That is why you call yourself a private investigator where assumptions are the norms or the exceptions?




> What's more I don't want to be converted.


Thanks for showing once again your insecurity about yourself and your faith again. No one is converting anyone. Sikhi is not about converting anyone. Let me repeat it, your preconceived wrong notions about Sikhi say something and show more about you, and the superficiality that you practice. 

It is you who have repeatedly talked about your faith in this forum. One can blame you for actually trying to convert others here to your Shivling ( Shiva's Phallus) fantasies, but as Sikhs we are open minded and let people express themselves about their faiths in this forum. Your posts would indicate that.

Now, relax, take it easy and start practicing what you preach. Faith is not about being a private investigator and jumping to conclusions without any basis.

Faith is about being honest with yourself and giving the benefit of the doubt to others.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ozarks (Sep 5, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I don't get the connection to Shiva... At some point did Ek Oankaar give out specific zones of influence to Shiva and the others - Mars for example.



He must have. I went through a little town onetime and there was a sign by the road that said "Jesus is Lord over (town name) and surrounding area." I saw that town... I thought Jesus got the short end of the stick.


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2009)

Ozarks ji

It looks like those Christian folks should pull their missionaries back from India, South American and everywhere else to "save" that town and its environs.:roll: OMG that town wasn't Las Vegas was it?:rofl!!:

Peace
Satyaban


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2009)

What has happened to the topic??!!??

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Sep 5, 2009)

ozarks said:


> he must have. I went through a little town onetime and there was a sign by the road that said "jesus is lord over (town name) and surrounding area." i saw that town... I thought jesus got the short end of the stick.



rofl


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## Satyaban (Sep 5, 2009)

I think this topic is spent so I am bowing out.

Peace
Satyaban


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## kiram (Sep 6, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Kiram ji
> 
> That you very much for providing for your understanding of the shabad as I requested while proving mine quite wrong. Since I make no claim of knowledge of scripture that is not my own I doubly in your debt.
> 
> ...



Satyaban ji,

Am glad to do so but everyone comes out with a deeper and more beautiful meaning, as we read the Shabad again and again... i had absolutely no intentions of proving you wrong.. 

And i have no knowledge myself..  and i must admit that was my first attempt at explaining a Shabad ji!! and i was apprehensive about doing it, since i have never translated any Shabad.. We all get together as a sangat to learn from each other, all that He has blessed us with through Gurbani.... and we are so fortunate, that Guru Sahib Ji has blessed us with so much through every word, every Shabad in Guru Granth Sahib Ji..... 

Enjoy every moment of this journey...


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## Satyaban (Sep 6, 2009)

kiram said:


> Satyaban ji,
> 
> Am glad to do so but everyone comes out with a deeper and more beautiful meaning, as we read the Shabad again and again... i had absolutely no intentions of proving you wrong..
> 
> ...


 
Kiram ji:

There was no problem. I am not a Sikh and know nothing about your scripture. I had it wrong and you corrected me. Proving me wrong doesn't even enter our conversation.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

kiram ji

Usually I am thanking you for posting beautiful shabads. Now let me thank you for your wisdom.


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

Satyaban ji

The thread may seem adrift, but as I go back over past comments, it looks different to me. This thread is like a 2 lane highway. One lane seems to be about what is almost a theological response to the question "Why desire to end reincarnation?" That lane has very little traffic in it right now. The other lane seems to be about our personal experiences relating to the question. The traffic is in that lane at the moment. And there is always some droll chatter on every thread from time to time. So feel free to open up a new lane, or pull over to the shoulder. But don't exit.


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## Embers (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks Narayanjot Ji 
I wonder if someone on this busy highway would be able to give me directions to the work by Bhai Vir Singh ji which describes the process (I assume of moksha) which Harbansj24 ji references above, please?


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## harbansj24 (Sep 6, 2009)

Ambers ji,

Bhai Vir Singh ji has discussed it in detail in Guru Nanak  Chamatkar. I am unable to scan it immediately and put my finger on the exact chapters. But I vaguely remember it was in dialogues with Sidhs, Barthar Jogi, Bhagat Jans etc. 

_Anyway reading both the volumes is guaranteed to be _a _rewarding experience and will give the reader an enchanting annotation of Sikh Philosophy._


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## Embers (Sep 6, 2009)

Thank you Harbansj24 ji, that is certainly enough to head me in the right direction. I appreciate it.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 6, 2009)

Bhai Vir Singh ji-

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

Harbans ji is right about the intellect, depth and  love for Ik Ong Kaar in Bhai Vir Singh ji. 

In the fear of sounding arrogant and dwelling in me-ism, I would like to share some anecdotes about him the way I was told by my family.

He was a very good friend of my Grand dad's Dr. Balwant Singh Malik although he was much older. My Grand dad was born in Jan 1889 and Bhai Sahib was born some years earlier in December, 1872.

Bhai Sahib, Sobha Singh ji- the famous painter, Prof. Puran Singh who was my Grand dad's cousin ( his bhua's son) were buddies and they used to get together at my ancestral's home in Ferozepore and also in Kasoli, a hill station.

The anecdote I would like to share is that the day I was born, at home of course, Bhai Vir Singh was there and he gave me the Gurti- a ritual in Punjab where someone puts a touch of honey in the newborn's mouth in hopes that the new born may emulate the person who has given it to him/her.

I must confess that I have been incapable of doing that.

Tejwant Singh


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## ik-jivan (Aug 29, 2010)

Ozark ji,
I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the SGGS ji, we must also believe in reincarnation. Yet, we should also see that Nanak Dev ji returned as a realized being, a jivan mukta, which should raise questions about a rather subtle principle of reincarnation. The Buddhists call one who returns as a jivan mukta a ‘Boddhisattva’. They return to aid the souls of other beings toward realization.

That said, ‘Is it for a union with the Creator or a desire to free yourself from the Creation’ that one desires to merge with Ik Onkar? I think the desire is something of a spiritual instinct, or natural law, much like a droplet of water will always migrate toward a larger droplet of water when in proximity to it. The desire seems to be born out of aversion to pain and suffering, as well as the urge of prana to live. It moves consciousness from animal to realized man. You might say that union is intrinsic to being. Yet, if consciously pursued, the objective of merger become less a personal goal and yields to the Universal Divine Will. So, the jivan mukta could merge or they could be returned, like Nanak Dev ji, depending upon whether there is a hukam for that particular soul to fulfil.

It seems to me that the fruit of spiritual evolution is the beginning of Anhad Shabad, Ajpa Jaap and the opening of Dasam Duar, which are mentioned all throughout SGGS ji and expounded upon in Japji Sahib. These are the manifestations of the realized man, the jivan mukta. The pineal gland is activated and begins to excrete Amrit Rass, or in scientific parlance, DMT, ATP and other chemicals that expand consciousness and strengthen body.

So, I gave ‘Other’ as the reason for ending reincarnation. The ‘other’ is what Nanak Dev ji pointed out:

hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]
h*u*kam raj*aaee* chalan*aa* n*aa*nak l*i*kh*iaa* n*aa*l ||1||
_O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||_
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=0001

The desire is built-in to creation and is inevitable, but the option to return remains so long as any single soul isn’t ready to return.

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 30, 2010)

Ik Jivan ji,

Guru fateh.

First of all. please forgive me to be barging into the conversation between you and Ozark ji but your comments in your first paragraph caught my eyes. We can discuss the rest of your post later.

You write:

*



			I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must also believe in reincarnation.
		
Click to expand...

*
I am a bit puzzled by your above assertion or perhaps I could not grasp the meaning of reincarnation from your view point.

We all know that Gurgadhis were given to the following Gurus by the Gurus that preceded them. In other words the Gurgadhi was transferred when  the Guru was alive. So, this can not be reincarnation. Reincarnation occurs when the person dies and then the third person somehow gets the information via conning because we all know that our Divine Guru will not let us astray, and then this third person decides about the Gurgadhi which naturally holds his own interests.

So, would you be kind enough to elaborate what your really meant?


Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ik-jivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji,
Oh, there is no need to ask for forgiveness for asking for clarification. I appreciate the opportunity to expand on the statement and perhaps gather more insight from yourself and others. Here is the basis for stating ‘I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must also believe in reincarnation.‘

. . . Hmmmm. Perhaps ‘returned’ is a misleading word, for Nanak Dev ji never actually left. Anyhow, here are my references. . .

SikhiWiki: The succession of 'the light'
This awareness of one light acting through the successive Gurus was so permeating among the Sikhs that Mobid Zulfiqar Ardastani (d. 1670) wrote in his Persian work Dabistan-i-Mazahib, "The Sikhs say that when Nanak left his body, he absorbed himself in Guru Angad who was his most devoted disciple, and that Guru Angad was Nanak himself. 

After that, at the time of his death, Guru Angad entered into the body of Guru Amar Das. He in the same manner occupied a place in the body of Guru Ram Das who in the same way got united with Guru Arjan. 

They say that whoever does not acknowledge Guru Arjan to be the very self of Baba Nanak becomes a nonbeliever." 

Guru Gobind Singh, last of the Gurus, himself wrote in his poetical autobiography called Bachitra Natak, "Nanak assumed the body of Angad. . . . 

Afterwards, Nanak was called Amar Das, as one lamp is lit from another. . . The holy Nanak was revered as Angad, Angad was recognized as Amar Das. And Amar Das became Ram Das. . . 

When Ram Das was blended with the Divine, he gave the Guruship to Arjan. Arjan appointed Hargobind in his place and Hargobind gave his seat to Har Rai. Har Krishan, his son, then became Guru. After him came Tegh Bahadur." 

*Source:* http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru#Guruship_-_the_one_candle_lights_the_next

Bachitra Natak - Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji, page 130 
ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਗਦ ਕੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਇਹ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਕਰਾ ॥
नानक अंगद को बपु धरा ॥ धरम प्रचुर इह जग मो करा ॥
Nanak transformed himself to Angad and spread Dharma in the world.

ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਪੁਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਤੇ ਦੀਪ ਜਗਾਯੋ ॥੭॥
अमरदास पुनि नामु कहायो ॥ जनु दीपक ते दीप जगायो ॥७॥
He was called Amar Das in the next transformation, a lamp was lit from the lamp.

Source: http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=130&english=t&id=68206

The point I intended to make was that if the soul and spirit of Nanak Dev ji is thought to have transferred, along with the guruship, then the movement of soul from one body to another, (regardless of whether the first has perished ahead of the birth of the successive soul), must also be a valid concept. I suppose this is a stretch of inference on my part.

Does that clear up the questions you had?  Do you feel I have I misunderstood?

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## findingmyway (Aug 30, 2010)

Ik-jivan ji,
Fascinating concept. However, with reference to the Guru's I don't know if transferance of soul is the correct concept as what was present before each received the guruship and what happened to that? The way they led their lives before receiving the guruship determined suitability to become the next Guru so surely we can't discount the soul previously present? I understand more that it was the jyot that transferred. That to me is the understanding of the truth, the unwavering dedication to Waheguru and ability to inspire others to follow the true path - this is so much more than soul and something very unique.
Please correct me if i am wrong : )
Jasleen


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

It is my understanding that transference of the jyote is not the same thing as reincarnation or transfer of the soul.

Each of the first 4 of our Gurus transferred the jyote while he was still alive. Following that Guru Arjan Dev 5th Nanak was nonetheless followed by his son Guru Hargobind who was living when his father died. This being the case as well with each of the Gurus to follow. Guru Har Rai chose his young son Guru Harkrishan. Even Guru Harkrishan was still living, though breathing his last breaths, when he gave directions to find the next Guru Teg Bahadur:

_Shortly before his death, realizing the gravity of the situation, Guru  Har Krishan called his mother and told her that his end was drawing  near. When asked to name his successor, he merely exclaimed 'Baba Bakala'.  Learning of his pronouncement many would style themselves as the next  Sikh Guru at the village of  Bakala. However, at the time  the future  (Guru) Teg Bahadur Sahib, was residing at village Bakala near river Beas in Punjab province. _http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Har_Krishan

Apologies for not going through the entire succession of Gurus.


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## ik-jivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Narayana Kaur ji and Findingmyway ji,
You realise that everything written below ‘. . . Hmmmm’ and above ‘The point’ are not my opinions, but quotes, right?

When I read, ‘After that, at the time of his death, *Guru Angad* entered into the body of Guru Amar Das. *He* in the same manner *occupied a place in the body of Guru Ram Das* *who* in the same way *got united with Guru Arjan*. ’ I get the impression that the person-soul, (identified as ‘he’ and not ‘it’) and not merely the joyte, light, knowledge, wisdom or mission was transferred and merged at the time of death.

What are your views on the quotes I’ve provided? Are these sources reliable, in your opinion? Can you point out how I might be misinterpreting them? Where can we go for further clarification on this matter?

Thanks for what I’m sure will be a really thought-provoking discussion! 

Chardi Kala!
t


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 30, 2010)

ik-jivan said:


> Tejwant Singh ji,
> Oh, there is no need to ask for forgiveness for asking for clarification. I appreciate the opportunity to expand on the statement and perhaps gather more insight from yourself and others. Here is the basis for stating ‘I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must also believe in reincarnation.‘
> 
> . . . Hmmmm. Perhaps ‘returned’ is a misleading word, for Nanak Dev ji never actually left. Anyhow, here are my references. . .
> ...



Ik-Jivan ji, ( btw I love your name which challenges the subject of reincarnation itself)

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. Pardon my ignorance but I dod not understand at all what the above means. It seems very confusing for a moorkh praani like my self. 

Do you believe in what you have read in Sikhwiki which you have copied and pasted above?

Have you done any other research regarding the subject or just by reading it you came to the conclusion that this is it?

Please do not take me wrong. I am not here to doubt your honesty and sincerity but I am sorry to say that the above is not convincing at all.

What do you think? Please share your personal opinions about it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 31, 2010)

ik jivan ji

In a small voice - because I have gone on too often about Bachittar Natak - what makes it a reliable source?

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022005/bachittar.htm


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## findingmyway (Aug 31, 2010)

There are many many sources against the bachittar natak and much written in there is against the teachings of the Granth Sahib, so it is beyond me why people still quote it. After reading the bachittar natak myself, I was shocked that it has a following!

I remember reading on another thread on this network that sikiwiki is no longer a reliable source due to the way it can be modified by anyone without verification.


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## jasbirkaleka (Aug 31, 2010)

Hardip Singh said:


> Offcourse Ozark jeo, our only & only aim is to unite with HIM, the Creator and nothing else. Creator is always greator than HIS Creation.


:happysingh:Guru Fateh,
I am happy as I am without any ambition to reconcile with HIM.
With all due raspects why did HE saprate me from HIM in the first place?
Pls could someone enlighten an ignorant nincompoop like me?swordfight


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## ik-jivan (Aug 31, 2010)

Narayana Kaur ji and Findingmyway ji,
So then, it looks like you both are sceptical about the reliability of the sources I quoted. The controversy over its veracity isn’t something I was even aware of. I did find, as a starting point of discovery, this : http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sitemap/f-227.html. I’ve been planning to read the Dasam Granth, but haven’t found the time yet, so I really can’t say much for or against it at this point.
 
What I can say, is that liking or not liking a fact isn’t necessary for me to accept it as a truth, if evidence exists to prove it. For instance, I don’t like violence, but that doesn’t prevent me from acknowledging it.

In reading the link you provided: http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022005/bachittar.htm, I noted a statement that really confuses me and that is, ‘Nanakian philosophy rejects the concept of reincarnation.’ What?! SGGS ji is replete with advice on ending the cycle of birth and death and discusses frequently transmigration through the 84 lakhs of species. What am I missing here? 
 
Are you’re being coy, Narayana Kaur ji? Will you give me just a few hints, in that small voice, please? _/ \_

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## spnadmin (Aug 31, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

I am not being coy. Just trying to be less vocal about Bachittar Natak.



> What?! Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is replete with advice on ending the  cycle of birth and death and discusses frequently transmigration through  the 84 lakhs of species. What am I missing here?


You will find that the issue of reincarnation has been debated by Sikhs, and is being right now hotly debated here at SPN So you might want to check those threads.

If however you leave all reference to reincarnation out of the article by Dr. Baldev Singh on Bachittar Natak, you are still left with some amazing verses that cause one to question the ability of Guru Gobnd Singh to recall who his parents were, or whether his ancestry really was from Sita in a quite literal way. 

The amazing claims made in Bachittar Natak, if taken seriously mean the Guru Gobind Singh had a bad memory, or was not the son of Guru Teg Bahadur, among other far-fetched possibilities

Here is another article, attached, this one by Dr. Devinder Singh Sekhon, Ph.D.  This article is longer, but gives a detailed and blow by blow account of problems found in Bachittar Natak.

I can upload another article also if necessary


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## findingmyway (Aug 31, 2010)

ik-jivan said:


> Narayana Kaur ji and Findingmyway ji,
> 
> What I can say, is that liking or not liking a fact isn’t necessary for me to accept it as a truth, if evidence exists to prove it. For instance, I don’t like violence, but that doesn’t prevent me from acknowledging it.



Dear Ik-jivan ji,
Unfortunately in this case it is not a matter of opinion. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our yardstick for whether we accept other texts. In the case of the bachittar natak, the evidence proving the book goes against Sikhi's fundamental principles is overwhelming so liking or not liking does not come into it. As GGSJ is our only Guru, we can only accept other sources of information if they agree with the principles and concepts in the Guru Granth Sahib. Anything that does not cannot be used to argue points of gurmat!! Sorry if I sound harsh. If you have any doubts I urge you to read it for yourself 

YouTube- Reality of Bachittar Natak(Dasm Granth) Part 1


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## ik-jivan (Aug 31, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji,
You and I really do see things from opposite sides of the spectrum . . . this is good. . . we can learn a lot from each other’s perspectives.

I actually see ‘ik-jivan’, or ‘one life’ as a continuum. We move from one place-time to another, we change our form constantly . . . you know, how the cells of our bodies are completely replaced every 7 years, et cetera . . . and yet, the witnessing consciousness remains. . . wiser for the learning, but still reasonably intact throughout the journey.

Truly, I spent almost my entire life ‘feeling’ like I would not be returning after this lifetime, so thought my intuition was telling me that reincarnation is simply not a relevant issue. Last year, though, I did give it some thought and I stitched together the facts of my own life, with the various accountings of seeming past-life recollections and regression therapy research, and so on.

What I conclude is that there is only one shared consciousness. This idea is not my own, but has been theorized by C. G. Jung as the ‘collective unconscious’ and as the ‘noosphere’ by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. I also find the _Kabbalistic_ concept of there being just one created soul agreeable.

With regard to reincarnation, I am inclined to think of the unique and distinct consciousness we each possess as compositions . . . like a literary work or musical composition . . . like a Shabad. So, while the Shabad is a unique composition of words, the words are not unique to the composition. Souls and the bodies they accompany are arrangements of qualities and characteristic that are unique to the space-time they occupy, but the substance of a soul is universal. Passing from one life into another, one may or may not retain the memories of previous lives. It all depends upon the cohesive strength of the soul-substance in that form and whether there is a need for that particular arrangement to be repeated.

In the case of Guru Nanak Dev ji, there was a need for the arrangement to be repeated, seamlessly, without intermittence, as is the usual case with reincarnation. I have in front of me a book titled ‘God as viewed through Gurbani & Science’, written by Subedar Dharam Singh Sujjon. Page 49 reads:

_"We have discussed that the Formless Being appeared in the Form of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s spirit changed into ten different bodies, to keep the sway of Sat-Naam going. Though the bodies changed, yet the technique of Sat-Naam (WAHEGURU) bestowing remained unchanged."_

And from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, page 966

sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
seh*i* tt*i*k*aa* dh*i*th*o*s j*ee*vadh*ai* ||1||
_The King, while still alive, applied the ceremonial mark to his forehead. ||_
lhxy dI PyrweIAY nwnkw dohI KtIAY ]
lehan*ae* dh*ee* f*ae*r*aaeeai* n*aa*nak*aa* dh*o*h*ee* khatt*eeai* ||
_Nanak proclaimed Lehna's succession - he earned it._
joiq Ehw jugiq swie sih kwieAw Pyir pltIAY ]
j*o*th ouh*aa* j*u*gath s*aa*e seh*i* k*aa*e*iaa* f*ae*r palatt*eeai* ||
_They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body._

Source: http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=0966

Lehna is Guru Angad Dev ji. I don’t know, but that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji statement sure seems to be saying the same thing that SikiWiki, Dasam Granth and Subedar Dharam Singh Sujjon are saying.

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## findingmyway (Aug 31, 2010)

The shabad states that the jyot was transferred. So the next question-are jyot and soul the same thing?


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## ik-jivan (Aug 31, 2010)

But it also said, '_the King just changed His body_'. . . the King, a person, changed his body.  I would expect that the Light or Joyt would not be referred to as a King, nor given use of 'His' a personal pronoun.  'IT' is light.  'HE' is light.

Maybe we should research to see if the Joyt has ever been referred to with personal pronouns, rather than the neuter 'it'.  Maybe it has.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 31, 2010)

jasbirkaleka said:


> :happysingh:Guru Fateh,
> I am happy as I am without any ambition to reconcile with HIM.
> With all due raspects why did HE saprate me from HIM in the first place?
> Pls could someone enlighten an ignorant nincompoop like me?swordfight



Jasbir ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let's check the meaning of Reconcile first.

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)_v._ *rec·on·ciled*, *rec·on·cil·ing*, *rec·on·ciles* 
_v.__tr._*1. * To reestablish a close relationship between.
*2. * To settle or resolve.

What kind of dispute did you have with Ik Ong Kaar, which is not a deity, in order for it to be reconciled?

For me, merging with Ik Ong Kaar is here and now and only in this life I am aware of. I can make mends when I make mistakes in this life. I can reconcile with the people I have disputes with etc etc and Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru gives us the tool to get better.

I was merged with the Source when I was conceived in a biological manner. But as we know that miscarriages happen and what happens then? What Karams should be blamed on a lump which had the potential to be a human? Who is the culprit here?

Our language is very limited to define anything about Ik Ong Kaar. We always fail in these futile efforts of ours.

It is hard to meet the Creator of the Universe and beyond, our Divine Master. IK ONG KAAR's form is immeasurable, inaccessible and unfathomable. IK ONG KAAR is all-pervading everywhere. 

IK ONG KAAR is above all formless and indescribable, so sublime as to be totally beyond human powers of recognition, description, or conception. 

 Hence it is called AJUNI- SEHBHUNG- THE CREATIVE ENERGY.

Religions  are just the schools of thoughts for us to  learn how to breed goodness  within.That's all,if they teach divisiveness, then they should be  discarded because IK ONK KAAR is in ALL,irrespective of their hue,creed or 
faith.

Normally, I am not into Gurbani quotes to express myself but as you are a rationalist like myself, I feel compelled to share the rationalisation that Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru offers us. 

Guru Arjan talks about the dogmatic religions which claimed the exclusive direct line to some deity-being that is called god by them in their own ways. 
 
Of all religions,This is the best:Not one of rituals,Not one of words,But the Path of Deeds -Serving the truly pious. GGS, M5, 1182:14.

In the following, Bhagat Kabir talks about the reconciliation with the self, about the merger which can not be separated. If it would then the purpose of the omnipresence of The Source becomes self defeating prophecy.

I scoured the world Looking for the One ...Then, opened the doors of my heart,And found the Timeless One within. GGS, Kabir, 341:3.

Sheikh Farid ji goes further about what happens after we have discovered The One within. When we have reconciled ourselves with us, then only the merger with Ik Ong Kaar  appears in the way of inner Aurorae whose sheen is shone in our body language.

Godly is the one who ...Shares with others,Even when he has nothing.Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Farid, 1384:17

I am a seeker and every seeker is a rationalist per se. Someone once wrote: Seek the company of those who seek truth. Fear the company of those who have found it.

This is worth repeating. So, for me the merger with Ik Ong Kaar happens in this very life that I know of and I am solely responsible for my actions. I can not pass the buck, nor can I give excuses  and justifications of my shortcomings due do my past lives that I am not aware of. For me that is a cop out and we all know a Seeker, a learner, a student, a Sikh is never a cop out.Otherwise he is not a Sikh.

Let me end this by quoting Peter E. Hendrickson.
 
"When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either [forthrightly] ceases to be mistaken, or ceases to be honest." — Peter E. Hendrickson

Isn't Sikhi  all about that?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Both replies of ik-jivan and findingmyway, respected forum members, raise a key point. And I asked a related question on a different thread - the Reincarnation Thread. What is meant by the soul in Sikhism? How is it uniquely defined? I don't see the impasse as to whether a soul is transferred or the jyote is transferred from Guru to Guru without having a sense of what is meant by the soul? AND is it consciousness?


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## ik-jivan (Sep 1, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji,
I am researching Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji references to ‘soul’. To me, it seems that the soul is a living being created by the Supreme Soul, while the Light represents the Divine qualities that define the condition of a being, such as knowledge, love, wisdom, fearlessness imparted by and from the One Light. While Supreme Soul and One Light are synonomous, it is due to the homogenous 'Allness' nature of the Divine. Yet, a created soul can be without light, which are qualities of the Divine.

This isn’t yet a definitive concept of either soul or Light . . . I will do more research and return to this . . .

sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
seh*i* tt*i*k*aa* dh*i*th*o*s j*ee*vadh*ai* ||1||
_The King, while still alive, applied the ceremonial mark to his forehead. ||_

lhxy dI PyrweIAY nwnkw dohI KtIAY ]
lehan*ae* dh*ee* f*ae*r*aaeeai* n*aa*nak*aa* dh*o*h*ee* khatt*eeai* ||
_Nanak proclaimed Lehna's succession - he earned it._

joiq Ehw jugiq swie sih kwieAw Pyir pltIAY ]
j*o*th ouh*aa* j*u*gath s*aa*e seh*i* k*aa*e*iaa* f*ae*r palatt*eeai* ||
_They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body._

Source: http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.as...=G&PageNo=0966

Also, the quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji says the One Light was *shared*, but does not mention if it was *transferred*. As a set of qualities that condition the soul, this is understandable. . . e.g. we share a common quality of character, virtue or *way* of being. The quote uses the statement, '_the same way_', to expand the meaning of _One Light_.

I am tending to interpret that the pre-condition of sharing the One Light is what made it possible for the King, Nanak Dev ji, to 'just change His body'.

The statement, '_the King just changed His body_' has caught my attention, as I wonder at how Nanak Dev ji is being referred to as the 'King' and how that fits in with the King of Kings appellation used to refer to God within Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Chardi Kala!
t


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## spnadmin (Sep 1, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

Thanks for starting the discussion regarding "soul" in Sikhi. But it has always been my understanding that Sikhism has never rejected common sense. That is why there is a wonderful story where Guru Nanak teaches the brahmins that if they can throw water toward the sun and expect the water toreach their ancestors, he can throw water toward his farmlands and expect it to reach his cattle. This is a facetious way of rejecting the impossible and asking us to keep our feet planted firmly on the ground. 

Common sense dictates that Guru Nanak could not transform or share his his body with another person while he and Guru Angad were still alive. I am not sure how this idea crept into currency. 

The pangatee does describe how spiritual consciouness is shared.

Another thing I am wondering about is whether the idea of "taking refuge" is manifesting in our conversation. Taking refuge is a Buddhist idea (as far as my limited understanding understands it). A student or chela takes refuge in the teacher or guru. Or anyone of  in the dharmic tradition can take refuge in the Buddha. Here the idea is that one gives over ones consciousness to the best one can do given one's personal level of spiritual progress. However it is the less developed soul who takes refuge in the more spiritually developed soul when taking refuge in the Buddhist sense.

So even here - if we tried to apply this by analogy - Guru Nanak would not be taking refuge in Lehna -- given that Lehna became Guru Angad when Guru Nanak saw in him a very high level of spiritual consciousness. Coming back to a Sikh understanding, as opposed to Buddhist, why would Guru Nanak change into anything or anyone other than he was?

We also need to take a deeper look at the pangatee that you have quoted by looking at the entire shabad. This is important so that the pangatee is not misunderstood. Please post the entire shabad so we can discuss it. I think there may be a misunderstanding as to who "the King" is as described by Nanak 5 in the lines you have quoted above. And how the words "changed his body" fit into the story being told in the dhabad.


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## ik-jivan (Sep 1, 2010)

<DL><DT>Narayjot Kaur ji,</DT></DL>You wrote, ‘Common sense dictates that Guru Nanak could not transform or share his his body with another person while he and Guru Angad were still alive. I am not sure how this idea crept into currency.’ 

Is that idea prevalent somewhere outside this thread? This is what I am thinking:

In the Shabad, there is no indication of two people sharing the same body while both are alive. But the Light, if interpreted to be a way - qualities and conditions - of thinking and being, or even simply as ‘intelligence’ as it is commonly interpreted, can be shared by any number of people.

The selection of Guru Angad ji as successor was made by Guru Nanak ji, while Guru Nanak ji was alive, at which time both Guru Angad ji and Guru Nanak ji were two separate individual beings. 
To me, those are two rational, well-grounded statements.

The peculiar idea is within the statement, ‘_the King just changed His body_’. As you requested, the rest of the lines relating to the matter are added below. From them, we see, ‘_Nanak established the kingdom_’ and – at this point – could be the King referred to, or he could be an emissary, acting on behalf of the King. This question is cleared up below. Guru Nanak Dev ji goes on to initiate Lehna with royal canopy, chanting and Amrit. Reference to royal canopy, suggests Lehna’s status is raised.

In the two lines that follow, I am not at all sure if ‘Guru’ is God or Guru Nanak Dev ji:
_The Guru implanted the almighty sword of the Teachings to illuminate his soul._
_The Guru bowed down to His disciple, while Nanak was still alive._​However, ‘_Teachings to illuminate his soul_’ are suggestive of intelligence being the Light. And the second line does fit the sequence of events with Guru Nanak Dev ji handing over the kingship, while still alive, to Guru Angad ji, so the ‘Guru’ here is likely also in reference to Guru Nanak Dev ji, who _'bowed down to His disciple_', Guru Angad ji.

The statement, ‘_The King, while still alive . . ._’ is confirmation that Guru Nanak Dev ji is to be understood as being the King referred to throughout and the forehead that received the ‘_ceremonial mark_’ most likely belonged to Guru Angad ji. This initiation process seems to have been followed up with proclamation of succession to the kingly throne and Guru’s shop.

I don’t interpret the next line, ‘_They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body_’ to mean that immediately upon proclamation of succession Guru Nanak Dev ji changed His body while both he and Guru Angad ji were still alive. 

So, we’ve addressed:

the sharing of the Light, interpreting it as intelligent qualities and conditions of being held in common by Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Angad ji while both were alive.
the transfer of guruship, performed ceremoniously and with the imparting of teachings by Guru Nanak Dev ji upon Guru Angad ji
What remains mystical and defies common sense is the phrase ‘_the King just changed His body_’. Yet we are dealing with the subject matter of spirituality, so certainty of facts, is impossible for us. All we can really do in this exercise is try to understand what the Shabad recounts. As for how each of us understands spiritual reality, it’s an internal matter. All I can do is tell you what I have resolved to through my contemplation . . . to my way of thinking, it would need to be a soul merger. If we can believe that human souls merge with the Supreme Soul and a man and a woman become one soul in two bodies through Anand Karaj, is it so preposterous that ten men, sharing the same Light would merge into one soul? Of course, none of this meets with our understanding of the laws of nature, but we are not talking about natural phenomenon. We are examining and hoping to derive understanding of supernatural phenomenon.

Maybe you can derive more from the Gurmukhi than is clear from the English translation. The part of the Shabad relating this event is below. If you need the earlier slokas, the link is provided too.

<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sath*i*g*u*r pras*aa*dh ||
_One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:_

nwau krqw kwdru kry ikau bolu hovY joKIvdY ]
n*aa*o karath*aa* k*aa*dhar kar*ae* k*i*o b*o*l h*o*v*ai* j*o*kh*ee*vadh*ai* ||
_One who chants the Name of the Almighty Creator - how can his words be judged?_

dy gunw siq BYx Brwv hY pwrMgiq dwnu pVIvdY ]
dh*ae* g*u*n*aa* sath bh*ai*n bhar*aa*v h*ai* p*aa*ra(n)gath dh*aa*n parr*ee*vadh*ai* ||
_His divine virtues are the true sisters and brothers; through them, the gift of supreme status is obtained._

nwnik rwju clwieAw scu kotu sqwxI nIv dY ]
n*aa*nak r*aa*j chal*aa*e*iaa* sach k*o*tt sath*aa*n*ee* n*ee*v dh*ai* ||
_Nanak established the kingdom; He built the true fortress on the strongest foundations._

lhxy DirEnu Cqu isir kir isPqI AMimRqu pIvdY ]
lehan*ae* dhhar*i*oun shhath s*i*r kar s*i*fath*ee* a(n)mr*i*th p*ee*vadh*ai* ||
_He installed the royal canopy over Lehna's head; chanting the Lord's Praises, He drank in the Ambrosial Nectar._

miq gur Awqm dyv dI KVig joir prwkuie jIA dY ]
math g*u*r *aa*tham dh*ae*v dh*ee* kharrag j*o*r par*aa*k*u*e j*ee*a dh*ai* ||
_The Guru implanted the almighty sword of the Teachings to illuminate his soul._

guir cyly rhrwis kIeI nwnik slwmiq QIvdY ]
g*u*r ch*ae*l*ae* rehar*aa*s k*eeee* n*aa*nak sal*aa*math thh*ee*vadh*ai* ||
_The Guru bowed down to His disciple, while Nanak was still alive._

sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
seh*i* tt*i*k*aa* dh*i*th*o*s j*ee*vadh*ai* ||1||
_The King, while still alive, applied the ceremonial mark to his forehead. ||1||_

lhxy dI PyrweIAY nwnkw dohI KtIAY ]
lehan*ae* dh*ee* f*ae*r*aaeeai* n*aa*nak*aa* dh*o*h*ee* khatt*eeai* ||
_Nanak proclaimed Lehna's succession - he earned it._

joiq Ehw jugiq swie sih kwieAw Pyir pltIAY ]
j*o*th ouh*aa* j*u*gath s*aa*e seh*i* k*aa*e*iaa* f*ae*r palatt*eeai* ||
_They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body._

JulY su Cqu inrMjnI mil qKqu bYTw gur htIAY ]
jh*u*l*ai* s shhath n*i*ra(n)jan*ee* mal thakhath b*ai*t(h)*aa* g*u*r hatt*eeai* ||
_The immaculate canopy waves over Him, and He sits on the throne in the Guru's shop._

krih ij gur PurmwieAw isl jogu AlUxI ctIAY ]
kareh*i* j g*u*r f*u*ram*aa*e*iaa* s*i*l j*o*g al*oo*n*ee* chatt*eeai* ||
_He does as the Guru commands; He tasted the tasteless stone of Yoga._
 
Source: http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=0966


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## findingmyway (Sep 1, 2010)

I find that English translations often lead me astray as moving between languages often causes problems so I've taken the liberty of pasting the shabad and Prof Sahib Singh's translation with my understanding in English underneath. I wish I had a Panjabi-English dictionary!! If anyone knows where to source a decent one I will be very grateful motherlylove

ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
xxx

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਇੱਕ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। 

ਨਾਉ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਕਾਦਰੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਕਿਉ  ਬੋਲੁ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਜੋਖੀਵਦੈ  ॥ ਦੇ  ਗੁਨਾ  ਸਤਿ  ਭੈਣ  ਭਰਾਵ  ਹੈ  ਪਾਰੰਗਤਿ  ਦਾਨੁ  ਪੜੀਵਦੈ  ॥ ਨਾਨਕਿ  ਰਾਜੁ  ਚਲਾਇਆ  ਸਚੁ  ਕੋਟੁ  ਸਤਾਣੀ  ਨੀਵ  ਦੈ  ॥ 


(ਕਿਸੇ  ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ) ਜੋ ਨਾਮਣਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ (ਉੱਚਾ) ਕਰੇ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਤੋਲਣ ਲਈ (ਕਿਸੇ ਪਾਸੋਂ)  ਕੋਈ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ (ਭਾਵ, ਮੈਂ ਬਲਵੰਡ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ਕੌਣ ਹਾਂ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਉੱਚੇ  ਮਰਤਬੇ ਨੂੰ ਬਿਆਨ ਕਰ ਸਕਾਂ?) ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘਾ ਸਕਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਆਤਮ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੀ  ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਜੋ ਸਤਿ ਆਦਿਕ ਰੱਬੀ ਗੁਣ (ਲੋਕ ਬੜੇ ਜਤਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪੈਦਾ  ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਗੁਣ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਤਾਂ) ਭੈਣ ਭਰਾਵ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਤਾਂ  ਸੁਭਾਵਿਕ ਹੀ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹਨ। (ਇਸ ਉੱਚੇ ਨਾਮਣੇ ਵਾਲੇ ਗੁਰੂ) ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਸੱਚ-ਰੂਪ  ਕਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਪੱਕੀ ਨੀਂਹ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ (ਧਰਮ ਦਾ) ਰਾਜ ਚਲਾਇਆ ਹੈ। 

One who praises the lord-his words cannot be weighed (they are priceless). To obtain the mercy of the lord who can help you cross oceans, seek those people (mentioned before) as those brothers and sisters have the lord within them. Nanak (who praises the lord in the highest of terms) has built a fortress from the truth with strong foundations of faith to begin his rule.

ਲਹਣੇ  ਧਰਿਓਨੁ  ਛਤੁ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਸਿਫਤੀ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਪੀਵਦੈ  ॥ ਮਤਿ  ਗੁਰ  ਆਤਮ  ਦੇਵ  ਦੀ  ਖੜਗਿ  ਜੋਰਿ  ਪਰਾਕੁਇ  ਜੀਅ  ਦੈ  ॥ 


ਗੁਰੂ  ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ (ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀ ਹੋਈ) ਮਤਿ-ਰੂਪ ਤਲਵਾਰ ਨਾਲ, ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਅਤੇ ਬਲ ਨਾਲ (ਅੰਦਰੋਂ  ਪਹਿਲਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਕੱਢ ਕੇ) ਆਤਮਕ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਕੇ, (ਬਾਬਾ) ਲਹਿਣਾ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ, ਜੋ  ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਾਮ-ਜਲ ਪੀ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ, ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ  ਨੇ (ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦਾ) ਛਤਰ ਧਰਿਆ। 

Guru Nanak used the teaching sword bestowed by Akal Purakh, to bestow on Lehna a spiritual life. Lehna's previous life (meaning as a devi worshipper) was completely removed and Nanak showed Lehna the umbrella of a spiritual life. Lehna, who drank the ambrosial name, was given Gurgaddi by Nanak

ਗੁਰਿ  ਚੇਲੇ  ਰਹਰਾਸਿ  ਕੀਈ  ਨਾਨਕਿ  ਸਲਾਮਤਿ  ਥੀਵਦੈ  ॥ ਸਹਿ  ਟਿਕਾ  ਦਿਤੋਸੁ  ਜੀਵਦੈ  ॥੧॥ 

(ਹੁਣ)  ਆਪਣੀ ਸਲਾਮਤੀ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਿੱਖ (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ) ਅੱਗੇ  ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕਿਆ, ਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਜਿਊਂਦਿਆਂ ਹੀ (ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦਾ) ਤਿਲਕ (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ  ਨੂੰ) ਦੇ ਦਿੱਤਾ।੧। 

While Guru Nanak was still alive and well, he bowed down before his disciple Lehna and gave hime the mark of the gurgaddi

ਲਹਣੇ  ਦੀ  ਫੇਰਾਈਐ  ਨਾਨਕਾ  ਦੋਹੀ  ਖਟੀਐ  ॥ ਜੋਤਿ  ਓਹਾ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ਸਾਇ  ਸਹਿ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਫੇਰਿ  ਪਲਟੀਐ  ॥ 

(ਜਦੋਂ  ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦਾ ਤਿਲਕ ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਦਿੱਤਾ, ਤਾਂ) ਗੁਰੂ  ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਧੁੰਮ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ, ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਧੁੰਮ  ਪੈ ਗਈ; ਕਿਉਂਕਿ, (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਉਹੀ (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਾਲੀ) ਜੋਤਿ  ਸੀ, ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਢੰਗ ਭੀ ਉਹੀ (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਾਲਾ) ਸੀ, ਗੁਰੂ (ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ) ਨੇ  (ਕੇਵਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਹੀ) ਮੁੜ ਵਟਾਇਆ ਸੀ। 

When Guru Nanak marked Lehna with the mark of the gurgaddi and declared him successor, with the goodness of Guru Nanak, bhai Lehna's goodness was also recognised because Lehna contained the same jyot that was inside Guru Nanak. He also had the same way of living, just the bodies were different.

ਝੁਲੈ  ਸੁ  ਛਤੁ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨੀ  ਮਲਿ  ਤਖਤੁ  ਬੈਠਾ  ਗੁਰ  ਹਟੀਐ  ॥ ਕਰਹਿ  ਜਿ  ਗੁਰ  ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ  ਸਿਲ  ਜੋਗੁ  ਅਲੂਣੀ  ਚਟੀਐ  ॥ 

(ਬਾਬਾ  ਲਹਣਾ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ) ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੱਬੀ ਛਤਰ ਝੁੱਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਹੱਟੀ  ਵਿਚ (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ) (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਪਾਸੋਂ 'ਨਾਮ' ਪਦਾਰਥ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਵੰਡਣ ਲਈ) ਗੱਦੀ  ਮੱਲ ਕੇ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ। (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ) ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਫੁਰਮਾਏ ਹੋਏ ਹੁਕਮ ਨੂੰ  ਪਾਲ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ-ਇਹ "ਹੁਕਮ ਪਾਲਣ"-ਰੂਪ ਜੋਗ ਦੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਅਲੂਣੀ ਸਿਲ ਚੱਟਣ (ਵਾਂਗ ਬੜੀ ਕਰੜੀ  ਕਾਰ) ਹੈ।

Baba Lehna sits under the canopy (of learning given by Akal Purakh if we continue from above). He takes the seat of Guru Nanak and becomes the 2nd Nanak, always following the orders and example of the 1st Nanak. The work is not easy (like a tasteless stone) but he adheres to his role as the one to follow orders (I think!)

 ਲੰਗਰੁ  ਚਲੈ  ਗੁਰ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਤੋਟਿ  ਨ  ਆਵੀ  ਖਟੀਐ  ॥ ਖਰਚੇ  ਦਿਤਿ  ਖਸੰਮ  ਦੀ  ਆਪ  ਖਹਦੀ  ਖੈਰਿ  ਦਬਟੀਐ  ॥ 

(ਬਾਬਾ  ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਨਾਮ-ਦਾਤਿ ਵੰਡ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ (ਭੀ) ਵਰਤਦੇ ਹਨ  ਤੇ (ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਭੀ) ਦਬਾ-ਦਬ ਦਾਨ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ, (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀ ਹੱਟੀ ਵਿਚ) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ  ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ (ਨਾਮ ਦਾ) ਲੰਗਰ ਚੱਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, (ਪਰ ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ) ਨਾਮ-ਕਮਾਈ  ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਘਾਟਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ।


Baba Lehna Ji shares his gift of enlightenment from Akal Purakh. He uses the knowledge of naam himself and also shares with others quickly. He starts the Guru's langar in Guru Nanak's abode but he never lets knowledge about the naam (shabad) run short.



ਹੋਵੈ  ਸਿਫਤਿ  ਖਸੰਮ  ਦੀ  ਨੂਰੁ  ਅਰਸਹੁ  ਕੁਰਸਹੁ  ਝਟੀਐ  ॥ ਤੁਧੁ  ਡਿਠੇ  ਸਚੇ  ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ  ਮਲੁ  ਜਨਮ  ਜਨਮ  ਦੀ  ਕਟੀਐ  ॥ 

(ਗੁਰੂ  ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਵਿਚ) ਮਾਲਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ,  ਰੂਹਾਨੀ ਦੇਸਾਂ ਤੋਂ (ਉਸ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ) ਨੂਰ ਝੜ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਸੱਚੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ (ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ  ਜੀ)! ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਦਾਰ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਕਈ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਦੀ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ) ਮੈਲ ਕੱਟੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ।


In Guru Angad's diwans, god praises were being sung. The diwan was illuminated by divine knowledge. Serving the true king (here meaning Guru Angad as he was chosen by Akal Purakh and appointed by Guru Nanak) the dirt from past lives is rubbed away (remember earlier that the past life of Guru Angad was his devi worshipping days rather than another lifetime).
 

ਸਚੁ  ਜਿ  ਗੁਰਿ  ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ  ਕਿਉ  ਏਦੂ  ਬੋਲਹੁ  ਹਟੀਐ  ॥ ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ  ਕਉਲੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਲਿਓ  ਕਰਿ  ਪੀਰਹੁ  ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਮੁਰਟੀਐ  ॥ 

(ਹੇ  ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ!) ਗੁਰੂ (ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨੇ ਜੋ ਭੀ ਹੁਕਮ ਕੀਤਾ, ਆਪ ਨੇ ਸੱਚ  (ਕਰਕੇ ਮੰਨਿਆ, ਅਤੇ ਆਪ ਨੇ) ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮੰਨਣ ਤੋਂ ਨਾਂਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤੀ; (ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੇ)  ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਨੇ ਬਚਨ ਨ ਮੰਨਿਆ, ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਲ ਪਿੱਠ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਹੀ (ਹੁਕਮ) ਮੋੜਦੇ ਰਹੇ।


Guru Angad did whatever Guru Nanak commanded, he made it true and never said no. Guru Nanak's sons turned their back on the guru to rebel.
 

ਦਿਲਿ  ਖੋਟੈ  ਆਕੀ  ਫਿਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ  ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ  ਭਾਰੁ  ਉਚਾਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ  ਛਟੀਐ  ॥ ਜਿਨਿ  ਆਖੀ  ਸੋਈ  ਕਰੇ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਕੀਤੀ  ਤਿਨੈ  ਥਟੀਐ  ॥ ਕਉਣੁ  ਹਾਰੇ  ਕਿਨਿ  ਉਵਟੀਐ  ॥੨॥ 

ਜੋ  ਲੋਕ ਖੋਟਾ ਦਿਲ ਹੋਣ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ (ਗੁਰੂ ਵੱਲੋਂ) ਆਕੀ ਹੋਏ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਲੋਕ (ਦੁਨੀਆ  ਦੇ ਧੰਧਿਆਂ ਦੀ) ਛੱਟ ਦਾ ਭਾਰ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਚੁੱਕੀ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ। (ਪਰ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੀਹ ਵੱਸ  ਹੈ? ਆਪਣੀ ਸਮਰੱਥਾ ਦੇ ਆਸਰੇ, ਇਸ ਹੁਕਮ-ਖੇਡ ਵਿਚ) ਨ ਕੋਈ ਹਾਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਨ ਕੋਈ  ਜਿੱਤਣ-ਜੋਗਾ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਰਜ਼ਾ-ਮੰਨਣ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ, ਉਹ ਆਪ ਹੀ  ਕਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਇਹ (ਹੁਕਮ-ਖੇਡ) ਰਚੀ, ਉਸ ਨੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ  ਹੁਕਮ ਮੰਨਣ ਦੇ) ਸਮਰੱਥ ਬਣਾਇਆ।੨।


The ones who rebelled by disobeying the Guru with a hard heart, they get lost in worldly affairs and carry a load of bad deeds with them. Akal Purakh himself chose Lehna to be the enlightened one, he chose him to obey Guru Nanak's command (which he created). In Akal Purakh's will no-one is a winner and no-one is a loser. 
 

ਜਿਨਿ  ਕੀਤੀ  ਸੋ  ਮੰਨਣਾ  ਕੋ  ਸਾਲੁ  ਜਿਵਾਹੇ  ਸਾਲੀ  ॥ ਧਰਮ  ਰਾਇ  ਹੈ  ਦੇਵਤਾ  ਲੈ  ਗਲਾ  ਕਰੇ  ਦਲਾਲੀ  ॥ 

ਜਿਸ  (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ) ਨੇ (ਨਿਮ੍ਰਤਾ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਮੰਨਣ ਦੀ  ਘਾਲ-ਕਮਾਈ) ਕੀਤੀ, ਉਹ ਮੰਨਣ-ਜੋਗ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ। (ਦੋਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਕੌਣ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ? ਜਿਵਾਂਹ  ਕਿ ਮੁੰਜੀ? (ਮੁੰਜੀ ਹੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਨੀਵੇਂ ਥਾਂ ਪਲਦੀ ਹੈ। ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਜੋ ਨੀਵਾਂ  ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਆਦਰ ਪਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ)। ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਧਰਮ ਦਾ ਰਾਜਾ ਹੋ  ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਧਰਮ ਦਾ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਰਜ਼ੋਈਆਂ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨਾਲ  ਜੋੜਨ ਦਾ ਵਿਚੋਲਾ-ਪਨ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ।


The one who remained humble and listened to Satgur's hukam (Guru Angad), became accepted. Which of the 2 was better? (comparing to Guru Nanak's son). The one who stays humble and follows orders is better. Guru Angad was king of faith but remained humble and remained steadfast in joining others with God.
 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਆਖੈ  ਸਚਾ  ਕਰੇ  ਸਾ  ਬਾਤ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਦਰਹਾਲੀ  ॥ ਗੁਰ  ਅੰਗਦ  ਦੀ  ਦੋਹੀ  ਫਿਰੀ  ਸਚੁ  ਕਰਤੈ  ਬੰਧਿ  ਬਹਾਲੀ  ॥ 

(ਹੁਣ)  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ (ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ) ਜੋ ਬਚਨ ਬੋਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਹੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹੀ ਗੱਲ ਤੁਰਤ  ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ (ਜੀ) ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਧੁੰਮ ਪੈ ਗਈ ਹੈ, ਸੱਚੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨੇ  ਪੱਕੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਕਾਇਮ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੈ।


Now whatever the true guru (Guru Angad) says, Akal Purakh does. Guru Angad was given the greatness/knowledge and this was confirmed/cemented by the almighty.
 

ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਪਲਟੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਮਲਿ  ਤਖਤੁ  ਬੈਠਾ  ਸੈ  ਡਾਲੀ  ॥ ਦਰੁ  ਸੇਵੇ  ਉਮਤਿ  ਖੜੀ  ਮਸਕਲੈ  ਹੋਇ  ਜੰਗਾਲੀ  ॥ ਦਰਿ  ਦਰਵੇਸੁ  ਖਸੰਮ  ਦੈ  ਨਾਇ  ਸਚੈ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਲਾਲੀ  ॥ 

ਸੈਂਕੜੇ  ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਵਾਲਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰੀਰ ਵਟਾ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਵਿਚ)  ਗੱਦੀ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕੇ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ  ਵਾਲੀ ਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ, ਕੇਵਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਪਲਟਿਆ ਹੈ)। ਸੰਗਤਿ (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦਾ) ਦਰ  (ਮੱਲ ਕੇ) ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਨਾਲ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਕਰ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ,  ਜਿਵੇਂ) ਜੰਗਾਲੀ ਹੋਈ ਧਾਤ ਮਸਕਲੇ ਨਾਲ (ਸਾਫ਼) ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ) ਦਰ ਤੇ  (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ) ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਦਾਤਿ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਲੀ ਹੈ। ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਸੱਚਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੀ  ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਉਤੇ) ਲਾਲੀ ਬਣੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ।


The jyot from Guru Nanak changed bodies (entered the body of Guru Angad), but Nanak continued to look after the people from his throne. The sangat serve him from love and make their souls cleaner. At Guru Nanak's door, the name of the saint Guru Angad is taken. Guru Angad loves the true name of Akal Purakh and his bani.
 

ਬਲਵੰਡ  ਖੀਵੀ  ਨੇਕ  ਜਨ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਬਹੁਤੀ  ਛਾਉ  ਪਤ੍ਰਾਲੀ  ॥ ਲੰਗਰਿ  ਦਉਲਤਿ  ਵੰਡੀਐ  ਰਸੁ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਖੀਰਿ  ਘਿਆਲੀ  ॥ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ  ਕੇ  ਮੁਖ  ਉਜਲੇ  ਮਨਮੁਖ  ਥੀਏ  ਪਰਾਲੀ  ॥ 

ਹੇ  ਬਲਵੰਡ! (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪਤਨੀ) (ਮਾਤਾ) ਖੀਵੀ ਜੀ (ਭੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਤੀ ਵਾਂਗ) ਬੜੇ  ਭਲੇ ਹਨ, ਮਾਤਾ ਖੀਵੀ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਛਾਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਪੱਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ (ਸੰਘਣੀ) ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਤਾ  ਖੀਵੀ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਪਾਸ ਬੈਠਿਆਂ ਭੀ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ-ਠੰਢ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ)। (ਜਿਵੇਂ ਗੁਰੂ  ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਤਸੰਗ-ਰੂਪ) ਲੰਗਰ ਵਿਚ (ਨਾਮ ਦੀ) ਦੌਲਤ ਵੰਡੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, ਆਤਮਕ  ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਾਮ-ਰਸ ਵੰਡਿਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ (ਤਿਵੇਂ ਮਾਤਾ ਖੀਵੀ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਦਕਾ  ਲੰਗਰ ਵਿਚ ਸਭ ਨੂੰ) ਘਿਉ ਵਾਲੀ ਖੀਰ ਵੰਡੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ। (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ  ਆ ਕੇ) ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਤਾਂ ਖਿੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਲੋਂ ਬੇਮੁਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ  (ਈਰਖਾ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ) ਪੀਲੇ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ।


Balwand says that Mata Khivi (Guru Angad's wife) is also a noble person like her husband. When close, she is very soothing. In the langar, Guru Angad serves the wealth of the naam. Likewise Mata Khivi serves the sangat the sweetness of kheer. When coming to the door, the faces of Gursikhs are radiant, but the faces of manmukhs are very pale.
 

ਪਏ  ਕਬੂਲੁ  ਖਸੰਮ  ਨਾਲਿ  ਜਾਂ  ਘਾਲ  ਮਰਦੀ  ਘਾਲੀ  ॥ ਮਾਤਾ  ਖੀਵੀ  ਸਹੁ  ਸੋਇ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਗੋਇ  ਉਠਾਲੀ  ॥੩॥ 

ਮਾਤਾ  ਖੀਵੀ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਉਹ ਪਤੀ (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਐਸਾ ਸੀ) ਜਿਸ ਨੇ (ਸਾਰੀ) ਧਰਤੀ (ਦਾ ਭਾਰ)  ਚੁੱਕ ਲਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਸੀ। ਜਦੋਂ (ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ) ਮਰਦਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਘਾਲ ਘਾਲੀ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ  ਆਪਣੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ) ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੋਏ।੩।


Mata Khivi's husband lifted the load of the world. He worked hard for humanity. The lord approved.
 

ਹੋਰਿਂਓ  ਗੰਗ  ਵਹਾਈਐ  ਦੁਨਿਆਈ  ਆਖੈ  ਕਿ  ਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ ਨਾਨਕ  ਈਸਰਿ  ਜਗਨਾਥਿ  ਉਚਹਦੀ  ਵੈਣੁ  ਵਿਰਿਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ 

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਆਖਦੀ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਨਾਥ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਨੇ ਹੱਦ ਦਾ ਉੱਚਾ ਬਚਨ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਹੋਰ ਪਾਸੇ ਵਲੋਂ ਹੀ ਗੰਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਕੀਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ?


The world wondered what Guru Nanak (and therefore all the gurus) did as he turned the world upside down with his thinking, as if he had reverted the course of the ganges
 

ਮਾਧਾਣਾ  ਪਰਬਤੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਨੇਤ੍ਰਿ  ਬਾਸਕੁ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਰਿੜਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ ਚਉਦਹ  ਰਤਨ  ਨਿਕਾਲਿਅਨੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਆਵਾ  ਗਉਣੁ  ਚਿਲਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ 

ਉਸ  (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ) ਨੇ ਉੱਚੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਨੂੰ ਮਧਾਣੀ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ, (ਮਨ-ਰੂਪ) ਬਾਸਕ ਨਾਗ ਨੂੰ  ਨੇਤ੍ਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਕਾਬੂ ਕਰ ਕੇ) 'ਸ਼ਬਦ' ਵਿਚ ਰੇੜਕਾ ਪਾਇਆ (ਭਾਵ,  'ਸ਼ਬਦ' ਨੂੰ ਵਿਚਾਰਿਆ; ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਉਸ (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ) ਨੇ (ਇਸ 'ਸ਼ਬਦ'-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚੋਂ  'ਰੱਬੀ ਗੁਣ'-ਰੂਪ) ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ (ਜਿਵੇਂ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਕੱਢੇ  ਸਨ) ਕੱਢੇ ਤੇ (ਇਹ ਉੱਦਮ ਕਰ ਕੇ) ਸੰਸਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਬਣਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ।


By bringing the mind under control and spreading the shabads, he found the jewels and therefore made the world a wonderful place.
 

ਕੁਦਰਤਿ  ਅਹਿ  ਵੇਖਾਲੀਅਨੁ  ਜਿਣਿ  ਐਵਡ  ਪਿਡ  ਠਿਣਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ ਲਹਣੇ  ਧਰਿਓਨੁ  ਛਤ੍ਰੁ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਅਸਮਾਨਿ  ਕਿਆੜਾ  ਛਿਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ 

ਉਸ  (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ) ਨੇ ਐਸੀ ਸਮਰੱਥਾ ਵਿਖਾਈ ਕਿ (ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਮਨ) ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ  ਇਤਨੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਖਿਆ, (ਫਿਰ) ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ (ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦਾ) ਛਤਰ  ਧਰਿਆ ਤੇ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ) ਸੋਭਾ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤਕ ਅਪੜਾਈ।


Guru Nanak showed such greatness and power, he 1st touched and helped Baba Lehna's mind. He spread the royal canopy over him (metaphorically) and raised him to the sky.
 

ਜੋਤਿ  ਸਮਾਣੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਆਪੁ  ਆਪੈ  ਸੇਤੀ  ਮਿਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ ਸਿਖਾਂ  ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾਂ  ਘੋਖਿ  ਕੈ  ਸਭ  ਉਮਤਿ  ਵੇਖਹੁ  ਜਿ  ਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥ ਜਾਂ  ਸੁਧੋਸੁ  ਤਾਂ  ਲਹਣਾ  ਟਿਕਿਓਨੁ  ॥੪॥ 

(ਗੁਰੂ  ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ) ਆਤਮਾ (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ) ਆਤਮਾ ਵਿਚ ਇਉਂ ਮਿਲ ਗਈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ  ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ 'ਆਪੇ' (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ) ਨਾਲ ਸਾਂਵਾਂ ਕਰ ਲਿਆ। ਹੇ ਸਾਰੀ  ਸੰਗਤਿ! ਵੇਖੋ, ਜੋ ਉਸ (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ) ਨੇ ਕੀਤਾ, ਆਪਣੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਤੇ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਖ  ਕੇ ਜਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਸੁਧਾਈ ਕੀਤੀ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ (ਆਪਣੇ ਥਾਂ ਲਈ ਬਾਬਾ) ਲਹਣਾ (ਜੀ ਨੂੰ)  ਚੁਣਿਆ।੪।


The jyot of Guru Nanak combined with the jyot of Guru Angad so Guru Angad became indistinguishable from Guru Nanak. Look what Guru Nanak did! He tested his sons and his Sikhs and then chose Lehna as his successor.


A king is a leader. So the Guru's are spiritual leaders and therefore kings. Their kingdom is dharam (faith). This passage seems to be about how all the Guru's have one jyot as they have the same enlightenment and same lifestyle. Although Guru Nanak appointed Guru Angad as successor in his lifetime, he did not physically switch bodies. The jyot however was shared between the bodies and therefore the bodies are counted as one.


If I have gone wrong anywhere in my translations, I would be very grateful if you could please tell me! I am still a novice!


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## spnadmin (Sep 1, 2010)

findingmyway ji/jasleen

In all the years Professor Sahib Singh's translation has been cited here as the gold standard of translations, no one before you has gifted the forum with a long and sturdy demonstration of how his understanding is applied to a problem before us.

I am so thankful to you. wahkaurwahkaur

And ik-jivan ji ...thanks for moving us beyond the idea of Guru Nanak and Guru Angad merging like shapeshifters  (  ) The idea of souls merging makes more sense. With a bit more energy we may even tackle the idea of the soul in Sikhism to the max. wahkaur wahkaur The thread will glow.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 1, 2010)

Findingtheway ji,

Guru Fateh.

I can not add anything more to what Narayanjot ji has already mentioned. You have done a fantastic job because most of the literal translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib are quite misleading. This has been my drum beat in many of my posts since I joined this wonderful forum in 2004. The literal translation does not do any justice to this beautiful poetry. This is the reason I urge all to express the Shabads in  their own words and share what kind of message they get from the Shabad. You have done justice to the Shabad,

The reason of my saying is in what you have expressed in English and what Ik Jivan ji has copied and pasted without giving a second thought if the literal translation matches what the Gurbani is talking about.

Many people claim the Tilak used in the below pangtee as the Hindu ritual of putting Tilak on the forehead which is not the case here. Tilak is not a Sikhi ritual nor its tradition.

Tilak exactly means the way you have expressed,"*he bowed down before his disciple Lehna and gave him the mark of the gurgaddi".*

In other words, Tilak means here passing the Gurgaddi to Guru Angad, as you have appropriately said.

Sahib Singh ji has also explained it in the right way. It is not Tilak Layah    (which would mean putting Tilak on the forehead). It is Tilak ditah.



> (ਹੁਣ)   ਆਪਣੀ ਸਲਾਮਤੀ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਿੱਖ (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ) ਅੱਗੇ   ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕਿਆ, ਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਜਿਊਂਦਿਆਂ ਹੀ (ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦਾ) ਤਿਲਕ (ਬਾਬਾ ਲਹਣਾ ਜੀ   ਨੂੰ) ਦੇ ਦਿੱਤਾ।੧।
> 
> While Guru Nanak was still alive and well, *he bowed down before his disciple Lehna and gave him the mark of the gurgaddi*


Following is what Ik Jivan ji wrote which shows the Hindu ritual  of putting the tilak on the forehead and hence is incorrect.



> sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
> seh*i* tt*i*k*aa* dh*i*th*o*s j*ee*vadh*ai* ||1||
> _*T**he King, while still alive, applied the ceremonial mark to his forehead. *||1||_



Thanks again for your great contribution.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ik-jivan (Sep 2, 2010)

Findingmyway ji,
You wrote, ‘When Guru Nanak marked Lehna with the mark of the gurgaddi and declared him successor, with the goodness of Guru Nanak, bhai Lehna's goodness was also recognised because Lehna contained the same jyot that was inside Guru Nanak. He also had the same way of living, just the bodies were different.’

Still, ‘just the bodies were different’, is a peculiar statement in this context. 

Here is an online English/Punjabi translator: http://www.ijunoon.net/. Merriam-Webster puts out a reasonable dictionary. . . lent mine to a Punjabi friend and I don’t think he’ll be giving it back. : (
------------------------------------------------------------
Narayanjot Kaur ji,
You wrote, ‘And ik-jivan ji ...thanks for moving us beyond the idea of Guru Nanak and Guru Angad merging like shapeshifters ( ) The idea of souls merging makes more sense. With a bit more energy we may even tackle the idea of the soul in Sikhism to the max. The thread will glow. ‘

Where does that ‘shapeshifter’ idea come from? Is that the meaning you thought I was conveying in part of my comments?


I’ll get back to the soul reference research, but I hope I can count on Findingmyway ji and others to examine the Gurmukhi to supplement whatever I can get out of the English. 
------------------------------------------------------------
Tejwant Singh ji,
You wrote, ‘’Following is what Ik Jivan ji wrote which shows the Hindu ritual of putting the tilak on the forehead and hence is incorrect.

Quote:
sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
sehi ttikaa dhithos jeevadhai ||1||
The King, while still alive, applied the ceremonial mark to his forehead. ||1|| ‘ 

I would be more inclined to interpret the ‘mark to his forehead’ to mean a change in his state of consciousness and capacity of understanding, in line with the concept of God writing His Naam upon ones mind and heart.  

The *Daily Hukamnama* refers to 'Hearing the Guru's Teachings, I obey them; this is the pre-ordained destiny written upon my forehead.'
------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all.

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## findingmyway (Sep 2, 2010)

Dear Narayanjot Bhenji and Tejwant Veerji,
Thank you for your kind words. It is with the help of this wonderful forum and its members that we can all move forward in our understanding. Without Guru's grace and the Guru's sadhsangat we are nothing! I am glad to have the opportunity to develop with the help of the sangat here.

Dear ik-jivan ji,
Thanks for the info about dictionaries 



ik-jivan said:


> Findingmyway ji,
> You wrote, ‘When Guru Nanak marked Lehna with the mark of the gurgaddi and declared him successor, with the goodness of Guru Nanak, bhai Lehna's goodness was also recognised because Lehna contained the same jyot that was inside Guru Nanak. He also had the same way of living, just the bodies were different.’
> 
> Still, ‘just the bodies were different’, is a peculiar statement in this context.
> ...



I think with the reference to 2 separate bodies, its emphasising that the Guru Nanak and Guru Angad were 2 separate people. However, Guru Nanak so inspired Bhai Lehna that his thinking and lifestyle changed and he became perfectly in tune with the way Guru Nanak thinks and therefore the jyot transferred. I think it's a way of stopping anyone getting the idea that Guru Nanak became Guru Angad as they existed at the same time but more that what's inside is what was shared. Sikhi doesn't place any emphasis on the body per se-it's how we use it that matters and I think its for that concept that it's mentioned. Any thoughts?


I watched the movie Avatar yesterday. There was 1 concept in there that was very interesting. It talked about how we are given energy which is borrowed and must be returned at the end of the lifetime. That is what sustains life on Pandora. Could we equate soul to a spiritual energy from Akal Purakh that is given to us for the duration of our life. We have to use it responsibly as we must then return this spiritual energy at the end of our lives? Any thoughts?

Ik-jivan ji, I'm looking forward to your work on souls kudihug

Jasleen.


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

Yes at one point in the conversation it did seem you were suggesting that Guru Nanak changed into Guru Angad/Lehna, while Guru Nanak was still alive. And that his soul reincarnated as Guru Angad's soul while Guru Nanak was still alive. That you might have been focusing instead  on shared consciousness or shared enlightenment was not immediately obvious, and only became obvious with some dialog. Your impressions honestly are still not clear to me, but becoming clearer. And I don't think I was the only person who had this impression.


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## ik-jivan (Sep 2, 2010)

Findingmyway ji,
You wrote, ‘I think it's a way of stopping anyone getting the idea that Guru Nanak became Guru Angad as they existed at the same time but more that what's inside is what was shared. Sikhi doesn't place any emphasis on the body per se-it's how we use it that matters and I think its for that concept that it's mentioned. Any thoughts?’

In that case, I have to wonder if it was prevalent for people to get ‘the idea that Guru Nanak became Guru Angad’ during that period of time (sometime between 1469 and 1552). To justify the addition of such a disclaimer, it would have had to have been a problematic concept with a rather widespread following. People didn’t believe in ‘shapeshifting’ or anything like that back then, did they? I don’t even think that the Vedic concept of avatars supported this kind of body transition-merging idea. Can you think of a reason why there would have been a need to add this statement, to what would have been a regular transference of guruship and teachings?

You wrote, ‘Could we equate soul to a spiritual energy. . .’

According to Einstein’s equation, everything material (with mass) can be equated to energy. But can we say that soul IS energy or HAS energy? Energy is not, as far as I can tell, conscious. Is it the soul within us that is conscious, or is it some other component of our being, such as mind? Well then, we might as well ask, is mind a part of soul or is soul a part of mind???

I think the latter (although perhaps a materialist would think the former, assuming soul to be a figment of imagination), where prana/life-energy is what sustains and animates the soul and mind is the consciousness of soul. I consider body to be the apparatus or tool for manifesting the mind-consciousness of soul within the material world. Soul, to me, is the living being sustained and animated by prana/life-energy. It possesses consciousness so it can be aware of its being alive. It possesses body so it can exercise will of consciousness and have a wide variety of experiences while being alive.

Here’s an interesting quote from SGGS ji:
jIau pRwx mnu qnu hry swcw eyhu suAwau ]
j*ee*o pr*aa*n man than har*ae* s*aa*ch*aa* e*ae*h*u* s*uaa*o ||
_Your soul, breath of life, mind and body shall blossom forth in lush profusion; this is the true purpose of life.
__Guru Arjan Dev Ji 
Siree Raag 
47
_ 
Still sifting through all the references to soul in the SGGS ji. Lot’s but very few that define what a soul is.

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## findingmyway (Sep 2, 2010)

ik-jivan said:


> Findingmyway ji,
> You wrote, ‘I think it's a way of stopping anyone getting the idea that Guru Nanak became Guru Angad as they existed at the same time but more that what's inside is what was shared. Sikhi doesn't place any emphasis on the body per se-it's how we use it that matters and I think its for that concept that it's mentioned. Any thoughts?’
> 
> In that case, I have to wonder if it was prevalent for people to get ‘the idea that Guru Nanak became Guru Angad’ during that period of time (sometime between 1469 and 1552). To justify the addition of such a disclaimer, it would have had to have been a problematic concept with a rather widespread following. People didn’t believe in ‘shapeshifting’ or anything like that back then, did they? I don’t even think that the Vedic concept of avatars supported this kind of body transition-merging idea. Can you think of a reason why there would have been a need to add this statement, to what would have been a regular transference of guruship and teachings?



I think the Guru's were far sighted enough to know that things can become distorted with time and therefore the clarification from the start! That is my personal opinion-perhaps someone more learned can add to this?

Interesting take on souls. Am still dwelling on that!


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## ik-jivan (Sep 2, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur,
Thanks for that. The lack of clarity is likely due to my philosophies about form. We keep shape and form of body only relatively and are constantly, but subtly, changing form. But radically transforming – shapeshifting – is just not a concept I had even considered. I mentioned the subtle form changes to illustrate the illusion of static solidity of the body, to emphasize the greater reality of spirit. 

Weird stuff does happen . . . not often, but it has happened that the usual laws of nature have been intercepted. Likewise, with soul, while we might presume the ‘normal’ birth-life-death(-rebirth) sequence, there are a few accounts of soul merger. Another that I am aware of is that of Elijah and his apprentice Elisha, who received the ‘mantle’ of his master (Elijah).

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 2, 2010)

Ik-Jivan ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

 



> Tejwant Singh ji,
> You wrote, ‘’Following is what Ik Jivan ji wrote which shows the Hindu ritual of putting the tilak on the forehead and hence is incorrect.
> 
> sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
> ...


 
Ik-Jivan ji,

I am sorry to say that the facts do not change no matter how subjective your interpretation can become to prove your point. It rather loses the objectivity of what we are talking about.

Your literal translation does say ,"*applied the* *ceremonial mark to his forehead", *which is contrary to your personal interpretation after it was pointed out. The above has nothing to do with conciousness but with the Hindu ceremony of tilak which is ceremonial. It is not your fault that the literal translation is incorrect. We all have the duty as Sikhs to point it out.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ik-jivan (Sep 2, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji,
I wasn’t trying to prove a point. I wasn’t sure of the relevance of tilaks to a discussion of soul and reincarnation. I was commenting on your comment regarding the quote I provided, because I thought I should respond, just to be politely conversant. 

My recount of personal interpretation was intended to assuage any concern you might have had that I interpreted the line to mean the Hindu custom. Yet the interpretation isn’t any more relevant to a discussion of soul and reincarnation than I think the comment I was responding to is.

Was there a point that you wanted to prove by making the statement, ’Following is what Ik Jivan ji wrote which shows the Hindu ritual of putting the tilak on the forehead and hence is incorrect’? Did you mean to indicate how flawed the English translation of SGGS ji is? 

Now you have me wondering. . .Would you mind interpreting the line from Gurmukhi to English, please? 

Here it is again:
sih itkw idqosu jIvdY ]1]
seh*i* tt*i*k*aa* dh*i*th*o*s j*ee*vadh*ai* ||1||

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

I re-read your comments on your earliest memories in infancy and childhood and now think I understand a little better the thoughts that you are bringing to the discussion in this thread. I can see now how "changing form" (Guru Nanak becomes Guru Angad) makes sense to you, whereas it did not to me, but seemed as if they were sharing a body as well as a jyote. 

Tell me if I have it right. Your personal experience of consciousness shared by you and "the Other" was so great that you felt it in a very physical way. So much so that the sense that there was an Other was overcome. It was more than a soul or a consciousness or a jyote shared in two bodies, but a sense of complete oneness. In that same way you may then understand the connection between Nanak and Angad to be similar. It suddenly hit me that this might be how you understand/experienced the oneness of soul or consciousness. If so, your comments then seem logical to me. The absence of duality on every plane of being.

I am not sure 100 percent if that is how the shabad being discussed should be understood. But this is very much like the idea of taking refuge.


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## ik-jivan (Sep 3, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji,
It’s my awareness of particle physics that informs my understanding of the subtle, but constant, changing of form. 

The main reason physical objects don’t coalesce like water with water is resistive electric charge at the atomic level. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge
Fortunately, most objects are neutral in charge, so attraction and repulsion is equal. 

However, we get electrostatic shocks when we or the objects we come in contact with are not neutral, but positively or negatively charged. This is an indication of anion and cation ‘mobility’.

In Quantum Physics it has been observed that electrons vanish, not to be found anywhere in our dimension. They also appear from nowhere. This happens constantly. 
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

In addition to the cellular regeneration I mentioned, there is an elemental transmutation of matter (food) into energy, as well as other cellular compounds and structures that become our bodies. Then at the least complex level – the atomic level – we have electrons coming and going from our bodies all the time. That we keep the shape and form that we do is a matter of balanced positive/negative energy exchange. There are a number of ways to change the polarity of charge.

All this science goes to say that solidity and constancy of form is an illusion. Not an unimportant matter, but certainly not a reliable measure of reality. To my way of thinking, ‘I’ am not a body. Instead, ‘I’ have a body, which can be taken away by death in an instance. In early childhood, I experienced of illness that kept me in bed and sleeping most of the time for 3 months. My body was weak and near death, but my consciousness was not diminished at all. However, spending 3 months in an unconscious and semi-conscious state has a way of altering your sense of reality, as does near death experience.

We share consciousness all the time. We are doing it right now with an exchange of written words – symbolic expressions of conscious thoughts and ideas. We do it more subtly, with glances and demeanor, as well as touch and simple sounds. The closer our thoughts and ways harmonize, the more subtle our communication and mutual understanding can be. We see this ‘pod’ mentality within families, but it isn’t the familiarity that gives rise to the seeming ‘sixth sense’, for we often ‘just don’t understand’ certain family members. It is the harmonization of characteristics and thinking . . . the sharing of the joyt, at whatever luminosity we hold in common.
Again, I don’t think the bodies of Guru Nanak and Guru Angad changed forms or merged or shapeshifted, or anything like that. What I am saying is that the bodies involved are not barriers to soul merger. What I am saying is that Guru Nanak and Guru Angad in their lifetimes were harmonised in thinking and being, which allowed for a soul merger once Guru Nanak left his body behind.

But yes, I do feel the ‘Other’ in a physical way – Anhad Shabad/Ajpa Jaap. .Yet the sense of Oneness is with everything, physically at least and I think we are all working on Oneness of consciousness. . . that’s what all this is for, isn’t it? : )

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

Many inspiring thoughts in your comments. I just want to repeat this part because it is you speaking so clearly.



> But yes, I do feel the ‘Other’ in a physical way – Anhad Shabad/Ajpa  Jaap. .Yet the sense of Oneness is with everything, physically at least  and I think we are all working on Oneness of consciousness. . . that’s  what all this is for, isn’t it? : )


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## findingmyway (Sep 3, 2010)

I think another part of soul is conscience. Some people listen more to conscience and some less, hence the different level of connection with God. Conscience also gives us the incentive to do good around us. Any thoughts?


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2010)

The question of coming to an understanding of the "soul" per gurmat is cresting in this thread. We have referred to the "soul" on several occasions to explain or elaborate views of reincarnation. However, it would be interesting to see what gurbani tells us about the soul specifically, in life and in death. 

If some of you would post a few ideas, then I will move them to a separate thread. It could be very interesting.

welcomekaur


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## ik-jivan (Sep 3, 2010)

Findingmyway ji,
For sure, I have thoughts about conscience: the sense of what is right and wrong that governs somebody's thoughts and actions, urging him or her to do right rather than wrong.

To me, conscience is where our hukam orders from Waheguru come from. I’m not talking about dramatic, world changing Divine Commands, although Waheguru certainly does select His devotees for those too. I mean the ‘learning hukams’ that ordinary people get. Every day, we make small decisions about seemingly insignificant and mundane things . . . like choosing to give up a seat on the bus to and elder, but these small matters of choosing to act selflessly add up over a lifetime. We become what we practice. 

Here’s a Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sloka how we transform our soul through actions:
kir kir krxw iliK lY jwhu ]
kar kar karan*aa* l*i*kh l*ai* j*aa*h*u* ||
_actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul._
_Guru Nanak Dev Ji _
_Jap 4_
Source: http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=4

All in all, I think the conscience is the study guide for learning how to live peacefully with self and others. We seem to have a built-in teacher of life-lessons and to me His Name is Waheguru. What’s more is that if you take the training course seriously and apply your conscious will to every test question, you feel – by the presence of absence of peace in your heart – whether you did the right thing and even whether there is more to do to complete the lesson.

To me, the conscience is the Other, the Presence, the Satguru who is patient, but persistent in encouraging and guiding us to become a better people. I suppose I feel the ‘otherness’ of the conscience, because – despite being very good at rationalizing self-interest – I just can’t find peace within myself if I do something even just a little selfish. 

Here’s an example. . . let’s say I’m packing lunches and one portion is just a little bigger than the other. I will either have to make the portions equal or give the bigger one to someone else. The other person won’t know the difference and they’re still getting enough, so why can’t I take the bigger one for myself? I’m doing the lunches. I deserve it. My rational thinking mind says, ‘Hey! It’s OK. I can do it. Who cares, anyway?’ But my conscience sneaks up on me and whispers, ‘But that would be selfish, regardless of whether anyone knows or is unaffected.’ So there, I want to do one thing, but my conscience tells me to ‘do the right thing’. Where does this secondary attitude about the situation come from? It’s just a completely harmless act. So what’s the big deal? Why would I debate with myself to take care of myself first? 

What is the conscience to you? Do you think it’s just self-talk? What’s your opinion about the cause and effect of insignificant little internal debates, like the example above? Where do the sentiments of guilt and remorse come from?

I’ve focused on selfishness vs. selflessness, but we could just as readily look at deceitfulness vs. truthfulness, or cowardice vs. courage, or any of the many vice-virtue pairs to see what kind of consequences result from either obeying or ignoring the conscience. . . maybe we could set out some objectives for what we want to learn from this discussion. So far, I have described the behavior of ‘my’ conscience and gave my perspective on what it is to me. 

What are your views? How does the conscience behave in you? In your opinion and through your experiences, does it seem like a natural or supernatural (spiritual) phenomenon?

Chardi Kala!
t


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## ik-jivan (Sep 3, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur,
OK. . . OK. . . I'll get back to pulling references from the SGGS ji.  But how could I resist Findingmyway's questions about conscience? : )

The way I see it, conscience is one of those things that make humans 'freaks of nature'. . . that and incessant thinking and the creative urges.

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2010)

ik-jivan ji

I hope you don't think I was being critical. I was not. My question was for some additional content in order to get another thread started on a very interesting topic.


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## ik-jivan (Sep 3, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji,
No. No. I understood you fine. It’s just that you echoed exactly what my conscience has been nagging me to do all week – research references to the soul. I actually got caught up about organising slokas by theme. . .

I have a strategy. I want to sort ALL of the references I find in the SGGS ji and then we can summarise the conclusions for each theme. E.g. origin, purpose, nature, et cetera. However, there are a lot of references. Is there some place to put pages and pages of reference, so that they can be reviewed, like an index, but not have them clutter the discussion? Is there any way to use them for footnotes, but keep them out of the main discussion?

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2010)

Usually all of the major search engines make it possible for you to post a link to the verse or pangatee, so you see one small part of the shabad with the reference, and then above it the link to the Ang and the entire shabad.

I am not aware of a way to set this up like a table or chart with columns for page, origin, purpose, etc. because the forum software does not support tables. So the best you could manage would be an outline standard for each entry. If that makes sense? 

We have some learned readers and writers here who know the shabads and  the significance of each. They might want to debate your schema for  organizing things based on their personal understanding. And that would  then mean there would be many digressions about how things should be  organized, and away from the topic of the thread. Frustrating.

Whenever I have uploaded a chart it was actually a jpeg file after it was taken as a page grab from a larger file or document.

A table or chart is a good way to marshall a lot of information. At the same time a table or chart can lead to some heated discussion because an entire shabad often leads one to a completely different conclusion from a single line. The entire shabad gives the total message intended by the Gurus, whereas single lines tend to sound/look like kernels of wisdom that one might find on a greeting card. So here I recommend caution.

Why not go with a standard way of presenting the basic information for one entry, followed by a complete shabad, and then your personal interpretation. Keep your table at hand so you can pick up with the next entry and be organized. But we generally do not like it when the shabad is omitted.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 3, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> I think another part of soul is conscience. Some people listen more to conscience and some less, hence the different level of connection with God. Conscience also gives us the incentive to do good around us. Any thoughts?



Findingmyway ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting take on conscience. I have a question or two about it. 

How about intuition and subconscious?

Are these  three things co-related and do they intermingle with each other without any conflicts?

Ik Jivan ji,

I would also urge you to pitch in.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 3, 2010)

Ik-Jivan ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have quoted 1/3 of the whole verse which is on page 47 of SGGS, in search for the word soul.

Can you please enlighten us which word in the following partial verse means soul.



> Here’s an interesting quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji:
> jIau pRwx mnu qnu hry swcw eyhu suAwau ]
> j*ee*o pr*aa*n man than har*ae* s*aa*ch*aa* e*ae*h*u* s*uaa*o ||
> _Your soul, breath of life, mind and body shall blossom forth in lush profusion; this is the true purpose of life.
> ...



Can you also please give your personal take on this?

We also know that the shabad that has the verse of RAHAO in it shows us  the central idea/message of the whole shabad. Does your take compliment that verse?

Thanks and I must say, I quite enjoy your posts.

Regrads

Tejwant Singh


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## ik-jivan (Sep 3, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji,
There's a solution. I've attached an incomplete 'draft only' of a structured PDF file. . . 

OK, now I know how to upload a PDF.  I'm removing the draft.  It's incomplete.


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2010)

I can guess it is taking a long time. This kind of work - the model for organizing information that you have proposed - could be the framework for a master's thesis for a university program in religious studies. But once you have a draft, you will have something that will take you a long way into the future because you will be able to add to it and develop it.


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## ik-jivan (Sep 3, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji,
You: ‘You have quoted 1/3 of the whole verse which is on page 47 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, in search for the word soul.’
Me: Yes. A LOT of use of the word soul throughout.

You: ’ Can you please enlighten us which word in the following partial verse means soul.’
jIau pRwx mnu qnu hry swcw eyhu suAwau ]
j*ee*o pr*aa*n man than har*ae* s*aa*ch*aa* e*ae*h*u* s*uaa*o ||
_Your soul, breath of life, mind and body shall blossom forth in lush profusion; this is the true purpose of life.
__Guru Arjan Dev Ji 
Siree Raag 47_
_ 
_Me: Truthfully, I am not seeing a ‘meaning’ or definition for soul yet from SGGS ji. Lots of descriptions, but not definitions. 

You: ‘Can you also please give your personal take on this?’
Me: From the RAHAO on down to the quoted line, this is what I glean from the English . . . Note that I am giving a personally relevant understanding, paying more attention to the sentiments and thoughts that arise in me. There’s little point in attempting a ‘scholarly analysis’ of the translation and I can’t read Gurmukhi. As you, yourself point out, the English translations are not so trustworthy. An intuitive interpretation is the best I can do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Surround yourself with devotees of the Beloved and do not let your consciousness stray from humble devotion to that Presence you can perceive. They whose minds are graced by the Guru to adore the True Name know the high value of such a predisposition. Through practice at the highest degree of dedication and devotion one is capable of, one will certainly find fulfilment. The five thieves will be eradicated from within, uncertainty and ignorance will be removed and ones potential in this lifetime will be achieved. There will not be cause to return to this world. Find the Company of the Holy to purify yourself inwardly and outwardly. Upon joining the True Congregation, your entire being will become robust and enlivened, because this is what you were born to do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You: ‘We also know that the shabad that has the verse of RAHAO in it shows us the central idea/message of the whole shabad.’
Me: I did not know that. Thank you for that very useful tip. I will definitely use that from now on.

You: Does your take compliment that verse?’
Me: If I just took the one line, ‘_Your soul, breath of life, mind and body shall blossom forth in lush profusion; this is the true purpose of life._’ I would have concluded that a life of dedicated devotional practice would result is the blossoming and is the purpose of life. I wouldn’t have put such a strong emphasis on the Company of the Holy, yet congregation and community interaction are objectives that I – increasingly – feel must accompany individual spiritual development . . . we’re all in this together. . . If Waheguru wouldn’t forsake a single soul, neither should any one of us.

Here’s a question for you: If you (your soul and conscious awareness) had to return to this world to serve the Will of God and aid the soul-journey of other beings, would you have a genuine desire to do so?

Sat Sri Akal, 
t


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## ik-jivan (Sep 4, 2010)

Findingmyway ji, Tejwant Singh ji, and Narayanjot Kaur ji,
Could you interpret the Gurmukhi in the following sloka, please?  The English seems to explain what Light (Joyt) is in relation to soul.  Can you refute or do you accept this translation?  I don't see the word joyt in the RG.

Awqm dyau pUjIAY ibnu siqgur bUJ n pwie ]
*aa*tham dh*ae*o p*oo*j*ee**ai* b*i*n sath*i*g*u*r b*oo*jh n p*aa*e ||
_So worship the Lord, the Light of the soul; without the True Guru, understanding is not obtained.__
__Guru Amar Daas Ji 
Siree Raag 
88_ 
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=88

If this is an accurate translation, it indicates that:

The Light is the Lord God
The Lord God is the Light of a soul
The presence of the Lord God / Light is known by the understanding possessed by the soul.
Thank you all.

Sat Sri Akal,
t


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## findingmyway (Sep 4, 2010)

Ik-jivan ji,
My understanding from reading the whole shabad is that Waheguru is the one that shows the soul the light, ie enlightens us. The shabad is not saying that the soul is a light but that the soul gets shown the right way.:idea:

It would be interesting to get BhagatSingh's take on these ideas too.....


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## ik-jivan (Sep 5, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I can guess it is taking a long time. This kind of work - the model for organizing information that you have proposed - could be the framework for a master's thesis for a university program in religious studies. But once you have a draft, you will have something that will take you a long way into the future because you will be able to add to it and develop it.



This project is also good for developing greater familiarity with SGGS ji too.  In the end, I will know what it says explicitly and what it implies.  Plus, as I go along, I am learning a little Gurmukhi and noticing that a number of Gurmukhi words are translated into the same English word.

There are 1,000 references to 'soul' in SGGS ji.  I have sorted 320 so far.  AND, I think I actually just found one that is a definition of what a soul is, as opposed what it does. . .

<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 50px" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>pMc BU Awqmw hir nwm ris poKY ]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>pa(n)ch bh*oo* *aa*tham*aa* har n*aa*m ras p*o*kh*ai* ||</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>_The soul, *the subtle essence of the five elements*, cherishes the Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord._

 
Maybe Findingmyway ji can re-interpret.  What is 'bhoo'? . . . OK, got to get back to work

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## findingmyway (Sep 6, 2010)

When translating it's not just the meaning of the words that's important but also the grammar. I was told that every addition of an adhikk or sihari etc has a meaning in gurbani but unfortunately I'm not yet clever enough to interpret this properly. Please give page number for shabads as it makes it easier to find them. Above shabad is on p299. To be honest I'm struggling with the translation of this shabad and would appreciate help from someone more learned please..........welcomekaur


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## ik-jivan (Sep 6, 2010)

Oops.  Sorry about not adding the page number.  I guess I was a little too excited about finding a line that seems to say 'soul IS. . .'

Here are a few similar slokas including pMc BU or derivative words.  Not sure if this will help you get a better feel for the unfamiliar words and terms.  Hope so. : )

pMc BU Awqmw vis krih qw qIrQ krih invwsu ]2]
pa(n)ch bh*oo* *aa*tham*aa* vas kareh*i* th*aa* th*ee*rathh kareh*i* n*i*v*aa*s ||2||
_If your soul overcomes the five elements, then you shall come to have a home at the true place of pilgrimage. ||2||
__Guru Amar Daas Ji 
Raag Gujri 491_ 
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=491

gurmuiK pMc BUAwqmw swDsMgiq imil swD suhwxw]
g*u*ram*u*kh pa(n)ch bh*ooaa*tham*aa* s*aa*dhhasa(n)gath m*i*l s*aa*dhh s*u*h*aa*n*aa*||
_Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by Gurmukh in the Holy Congregation.
__Bhai Gurdaas Ji 
Vaars Bhai Gurdaas 7_ 
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=B&PageNo=7
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5696

dUK BUK imtY qyro shsw suK pwvih qUM suKmin nwrI ]1] rhwau ]
dh*oo*kh bh*oo*kh m*i*tt*ai* th*ae*r*o* sehas*aa* s*u*kh p*aa*veh*i* th*oo*(n) s*u*khaman n*aa*r*ee* ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
_Your pain, hunger and doubt shall vanish, and you shall obtain peace, O happy soul-bride. ||1||Pause||_
_Guru Arjan Dev Ji 
Raag Aasaa 377_ 
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=377

nau Gr dyiK ju kwmin BUlI bsqu AnUp n pweI ]
no ghar dh*ae*kh j k*aa*man bh*oo*l*ee* basath an*oo*p n p*aaee* ||
_Seeing the nine openings of the body, the soul-bride is led astray; she does not obtain that incomparable thing.
__Bhagat Kabeer Ji 
Raag Gauree 339_ 
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=339


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## findingmyway (Sep 6, 2010)

pMc BU is 5 elements. It's more the grammar that's confusing me and Prof Sahib Singh's translation is not easy to understand



:a100posts:


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## spnadmin (Sep 7, 2010)

jasleen ji

I have attached two documents that you may find helpful on the subject of Gurbani grammar. 

The field of "Gurbani linguistics" was spearheaded by Principal Teja Singh of Khalsa College Bombay, and Professor Sahib Singh. Professor's Compilation of the Granth Sahib is attached. A Bibliography of Guru Granth Sahib by Anoop Singh is also attached. This originally came from a panthic.org website but is no longer available there to my knowledge. The bibliography will direct you to some other valuable references, including the work of Teja Singh ji. The 3rd reference I would recommend is a book by Charles Shackle, The Sacred Language of the Sikhs. Charles Shackle has also written scholarly articles on this subject, which you may be able to find on the Google search engine. Yes -- there are some serious Gurmukhi scholars in the West. His work is considered of high merit in the community of Sikh academics.


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