# Sikhism: Monotheistic Or Pantheistic?



## kds1980 (Aug 2, 2007)

I want to know whether sikhism is pantheistic or monotheistic.i tried to search this on googlle but found some people support that sikhism is monotheistic while some others say that it is pantheistic


----------



## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2007)

kds ji

While back when another thread was raging, I did days of research on this point. Not because I lacked an answer, but more because I wanted a systematic way to compare religions to see who was saying what. The majority, maybe ALL theologians, Sikh and of other faiths, will answer monotheistic. There are some subtleties in Sikhism that might lead to the inference that it is pantheistic -- the all pervading aspect of Waheguru leads to this thought. But this theory has been soundly refuted by established Sikh religious scholars and scholars in all the major religions. The two threads of thought when this is contradicted seem to be as follows: Hindus with a political agenda (who are not serious students of Vedantic thinking); and some members of the scientific community who are looking for a fusion of Science and Faith. I am noticing this last group speaking with a stronger voice these days on the net. I have actually had an ongoing dialog of over a month on another forum about this. We can talk about it if you want. 

The scholar that I depend on the most is Daljeet Singh. With Professor Singh you will not read a canned lecture. You will read his thoughtful evaluation of competing points of view on the question you ask, and his considered conclusion. Monotheistic.

This link has embedded links to blockbuster articles by very some serious people covering many of the more difficult concepts of Sikhism  Articles

When you scroll down you get to an article by Dr. Daljeet Singh, The Concept of God in Sikhism. Very good reading. Will also look into uploading a longer book by the professor.


----------



## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2007)

This would be the Concept of God in Sikhism - Daljeet Singh - shorter article.


----------



## kds1980 (Aug 2, 2007)

THank you aad0002 ji for this valuable information.


----------



## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 17, 2009)

Dear All,

Sikhism is monotheistic but respects all other religions when followed truthfully and honestly as written in their respective scriptures but with out empty rituals and superstition. God is one and has created the creation but all religions are created and institutionalized by man to control the followers.

ਏਕੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਬਾਝੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਰਿ ਗਗਨੁ ਧਰੀਆ ॥ 

_Ėko karṯā jin jag kī▫ā. Bājẖ kalā ḏẖar gagan ḏẖarī▫ā._ 

There is only One Creator, who created the world. Without any pillars, It supports the earth and the sky. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1188-13

ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਬਰੁ ਧਰਤਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿ ਚੰਦੋਆ ਤਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗਗਨੁ ਰਹਾਇ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਚੰਦੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਕੀਏ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨੰਤੁ ਚੋਜ ਵਿਡਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਧਰਮ ਵੀਚਾਰ ਨਾਵਣ ਪੁਰਬਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਰਿ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ਕਿ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣਿਆ॥ ਸਚੈ ਤਖਤਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਹੋਰ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਿਆ ॥

_Āpīnĥai āp sāj āp pacẖẖāṇi▫ā. Ambar ḏẖaraṯ vicẖẖoṛ cẖanḏo▫ā ṯāṇi▫ā. viṇ thamĥā gagan rahā▫e sabaḏ nīsāṇi▫ā. Sūraj cẖanḏ upā▫e joṯ samāṇi▫ā. Kī▫e rāṯ ḏinanṯ cẖoj vidāṇi▫ā. Ŧirath ḏẖaram vīcẖār nāvaṇ purbāṇi▫ā. Ŧuḏẖ sar avar na ko▫e kė ākẖ vakẖāṇi▫ā. Sacẖai ṯakẖaṯ nivās hor āvaṇ jāṇi▫ā._ 

Akal Purkh created It self, and understands It self. Separating the sky and the earth, It has spread out Its canopy. Without any pillars, It supports the sky, through the insignia of Its Sabd. Creating the sun and the moon, It infused Its Light into them. It created the night and the day; wondrous are Its miraculous plays. It created the sacred shrines of pilgrimage, where people contemplate righteousness, and take cleansing baths on special occasions. There is no other equal to You; how can we speak and describe you? You are seated on the throne of Truth; all others come and go. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1279

ਆਪੇ ਸਚੁ ਕੀਆ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ॥ਅੰਡਜ ਫੋੜਿ ਜੋੜਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿ ॥ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਕੀਏ ਬੈਸਣ ਕਉ ਥਾਉ ॥ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨੰਤੁ ਕੀਏ ਭਉ ਭਾਉ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖਣਹਾਰਾ ॥ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰਾ ॥

_Āpė sacẖ kī¬ā kar joṛ. Andaj foṛ joṛ vicẖẖoṛ. Ḏẖaraṯ akās kī¬ė baisaṇ ka¬o thā¬o. Rāṯ ḏinanṯ kī¬ė bẖa¬o bẖā¬o. Jin kī¬ė kar vėkẖaṇhārā. Avar na ḏūjā sirjaṇhārā._

Akal Purkh Itself created the universe, joining the elements together. Breaking the cosmic egg, It united, and separated. Then made the earth and the sky into places to live, and created day and night, fear and love. The One, who created the Creation, also watches over it. There is no other Creator than Akal Purkh. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 839

*Conclusion:*

ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥

_Cẖẖi▫a gẖar cẖẖi▫a gur cẖẖi▫a upḏes. Gur gur eko ves anek._

There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings. But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 12-16 & 353-7

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


----------



## spnadmin (Jul 17, 2009)

Concept of God in Sikhism by Dr. Daljeet Singh is attached.


----------



## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 17, 2009)

*THEOLOGICAL GOD/ਧਾਰਮਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ*​ 
ABSTRACT​ 
Theological God is rather an elusive conception and it becomes difficult in discussing this question, to know what one is discussing? It is an Absolute Principle and It applies to every thing (Sargun) and some thing in terms of itself cannot be defined (Nirgun). One must set aside personal prejudices or bias and keep an open mind to understand the Principle. God and spirit are both out side the limitations of time and space. Prejudiced individuals see only what fits those prejudices.

Q. Do you believe in God?

A. It depends what you mean by the term.

One must keep an open mind and be receptive despite what issues arise?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The absolute Principle (God) is not a, thing, sound or vibration, not divisible, not diluted or augmented, has no partner or complement, has no form or qualities;

ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ 

_Baran cẖihan nāhī mukẖ na māsārā._ 

Akal Purkh has no color, no sign, no mouth and no beard -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-10 

Akal Purkh is every where(ਨਿਰੰਤਰ) all the time (Immanent & Transcendent) and forever with out any relation to time and space. 

ਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਉਦਾਸਾਏ ॥ ਦੰਡਧਾਰ ਜਟਧਾਰੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਵਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਤੀਰਥਾਏ ॥ ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਮਨ ਮਾਏਂ ॥ ਊਭ ਪਇਆਲ ਸਰਬ ਮਹਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਰਸਿ ਮੰਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਏ ॥ ਜੋਗ ਭੇਖ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ਕਾਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਤਪੀ ਤਪੀਸੁਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਨਟ ਨਾਟਿਕ ਨਿਰਤਾਏ ॥ ਚਹੁ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਖਟ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਦਸ ਅਸਟੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਏ ॥ ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਨਹਿ ਤਉ ਕਿਸ ਤੇ ਕਹਉ ਦੁਰਾਏ ॥ ਅਗਹ ਅਗਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਨਹ ਕੀਮ ਕੀਮ ਕੀਮਾਏ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਜਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਟੀਆਏ ॥

_Ban mėh pekẖi▫o ṯariṇ mėh pekẖi▫o garihi pekẖi▫o uḏāsā▫e. Ḏandḏẖār jatḏẖārai pekẖi▫o varaṯ nem ṯīrthā▫e. Saṯsang pekẖi▫o man mā▫eŉ. Ūbẖ pa▫i▫āl sarab mėh pūran ras mangal guṇ gā▫e. Jog bẖekẖ sanni▫āsai pekẖi▫o jaṯ jangam kāpṛā▫e. Ŧapī ṯapīsur mun mėh pekẖi▫o nat nātik nirṯā▫e. Cẖahu mėh pekẖi▫o kẖat mėh pekẖi▫o ḏas astī simmriṯā▫e. Sabẖ mil eko ek vakẖānėh ṯa▫o kis ṯe kaha▫o ḏurā▫e. Agah agah be▫anṯ su▫āmī nah kīm kīm kīmā▫e. Jan Nānak ṯin kai bal bal jā▫ī▫ai jih gẖat pargatī▫ā▫e._ 

I have seen Akal Purkh in the woods, in the fields, in the household, and in renunciation. I have seen It as a Yogi carrying His staff, with matted hair, fasting, making vows, and visiting sacred shrines of pilgrimage. I have seen It in the Society of the Saints, within my own mind, in the sky, in the nether regions of the underworld, pervading and permeating in everything. With love and joy, I sing Its Glorious Praises. I have seen It among the hermits, the ascetics, the celibates, the wandering hermits and the wearers of patched coats. I have seen It among the men of severe self-discipline, the silent sages, the actors, dramas and dances. I have seen It in the four Vedas, in the six Shaastras, in the eighteen Puraanas and the Simritees as well. All together, they declare that there is only One Akal Purkh. So tell me, from whom is It hidden? Unfathomable and Inaccessible, It is our Infinite Akal Purkh and Master; Its Value is beyond valuation. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those, within whose heart It is revealed. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1139

ਅਦਿਸਟੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਤਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥

_Aḏisat ḏisai ṯā kahi¬ā jā¬ė._

If the Unseen Akal Purkh could be seen, then It could be described.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri Guarary, AGGS, Page, 22-12

It is One and unity, determines every thing, comes before every thing, and is the law of every thing being blind but Its justice is evenhanded. The ancient pagan Greek philosopher Plato said that the highest power was the Good Itself, that transcendent principle by whose light we could tell the difference between good and bad, right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate. The Primary Good is good, pure and simple, not by virtue of connection with some thing else, because there is nothing else above it. All things are below It, and receives good from It. It is further more, an agent, through Its action is intellect, life, and the self, and every thing in which there is life and intelligence. The Primary Good, therefore, is that which has no opposite. God is, (Truth Itself and formless), which is why people can't get it until they get honest with themselves.

ਬੋਲੈ ਭਰਥਰਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ॥ਪਰਮ ਤੰਤ ਮਹਿ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਰੂਪੁ ॥

_Bolai bẖarthar saṯ sarūp. Param ṯanṯ meh rėkẖ na rūp._

Says Bhart'har (ਗੋਰਖ ਦਾ ਚੇਲਾ, ਇਕ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਿਆ) God is the embodiment of Truth; the supreme essence of reality has no shape or form. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 953-3

Sikhism rejects the idea of a personal God or an extra-cosmic anthropomorphic God. The God of theology is a bundle of contradictions and a logical impossibility as It is Absolute (Avgat-ਅਵਿਗਤ) and Infinite (Apaar-ਅਪਾਰ). Guru Nanak elucidates God with an open Oorhaa (ਓ), and describes the word in Raag Asa;

ਊੜੈ ਉਪਮਾ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਜੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

_Ūṛai upmā ṯā kī kījai jā kā anṯ na pā&shy;i&shy;ā._

Ooraa: Sing the Praises of the One whose limit cannot be found.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 432-12

Sikhism believes in a Divine Principle, Universal in nature and the root (ਮੂਲ) of all, from which all proceeds and with in which all is absorbed at the end of the great cycle of Being as expressed by Guru Ramdas in Raag Asa;

ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਉਪਾਈ ਜੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸਭ ਗੋਈ ॥ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੇ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਸਭਸੈ ਕਾ ਜਾਣੋਈ ॥ 

_Ŧuḏẖ āpė sarisat sabẖ upā¬ī jī ṯuḏẖ āpė siraj sabẖ go¬ī. Jan Nānak guṇ gāvai karṯė kė jī jo sabẖsai kā jāṇo¬ī._

You Yourself created the entire universe, and having fashioned it, You Yourself shall destroy it all. Servant Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Dear Creator, the Knower of all. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 11-13

Creation is a process, which is unfolding according to the Absolute Divine Principle. It is of utmost importance to have a correct intellectual conception by the individual of the “Supreme Akal Purkh”, for illogical and erroneous conception are capable of misleading and keeping in dark people who otherwise by their intuitions would be on the right track. An individual is entitled to define his Higher Power of his own understanding but on the other hand a false conception of God is responsible for spiritual ignorance.

ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥

_Asaŉkẖ mūrakẖ anḏẖ gẖor._

Countless fools are blinded by ignorance. -----Japji, AGGS, Page, 4

ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਮਾਨੁਖੁ ਭਇਆ ਜੋ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੋ ਲੋਰੈ ॥ ਰੈਣਿ ਅੰਧਾਰੀ ਕਾਰੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਭੋਰੈ ॥

_Agi¬ānī mānukẖ bẖa¬i¬ā jo nāhī so lorai. Raiṇ anḏẖārī kārī¬ā kavan jugaṯ jiṯ bẖorai._

Humanity is in spiritual ignorance; people see things that do not exist. The night is dark and gloomy; how will the morning dawn? -----Guru Arjan, AGGS, Page, 212-11

Thus the Universe itself is unfolding out of its own essence beyond the reach of our limited senses. It is a waste of time in arguing with people who do not want to be convinced or ridicule every thing, which is new to their limited outlook regarding God/Higher Power. The message is for those---- who want to know and are seeking something that will solve their doubts (duality) and remove their difficulties. Guru Arjan prays in humility for Lord’ in Raag Asa;

ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਮਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਥੋਰੀ ॥ ਬਿਨਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਓਟ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੋਰੀ ॥

_Kicẖẖū na jānā maṯ mėrī thorī. Binvaṯ Nānak ot parabẖ ṯorī._

I know nothing, and my intellect is inadequate. Prays Nanak, O God, You are my only Support. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 388-3

He, who sees the Eternal existing alike in imperishable and perishable things, sees indeed. So God is every where, in every atom of the visible and invisible Cosmos as a Power of evolution and involution as expressed by Guru Arjan in Raag Gauri and Farid Slokes and Kabir in Raag Parbhati; 

ਸੂਖਮ ਅਸਥੂਲ ਸਗਲ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥

_Sūkẖam asthūl sagal bẖagvān._

God exists in all subtle and gross matter (ਨਿਰਗੁਣ & ਸਰਗੁਣ).-----Guru Arjan, Thiti Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 299-17

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

_Farīḏā kẖālak kẖalak meh kẖalak vasai rab māhi._

Farid, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.-----Guru Arjan, Sloke Farid, AGGS, Page, 1381-17

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥ 

_Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā¬ī. Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak meh kẖālik pūr rahi¬o sarab ṯẖāŉ¬ī._

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. -----Kabir, Raag Parbhati Bhibhas, AGGS, Page 1350-1 

The Eternal is the source of everlasting life, power, and wisdom through its manifestations in the world. Some call him hypothetical personal Creator-- to whom they petition—for the fulfillment of personal questionable desires. This Eternal power teaches that right action is the truest supplication for the benefit desired. Aristotle said that there is Something above the substance of the firmament, nothing is greater than It and there is no way to quantify or measure It. It is beyond change in any manner or mode. There is no limit to Its power. Therefore It performs Its acts outside of time, being by nature effective and thus always in action, with out Its actions affecting It. Nothing comes from It in a state of potential, rather things come from It in action, while Its potential always pervades the universe.The present age is learning to apply scientific method to find that truth about the Eternal Wisdom.
There is no absolute scientific proof of the presence of The Absolute Principle or the Infinite God; henceforth the It’s subtle essence cannot be obtained by any one. Religion and science will always clash due to perceived insults to the research and rationality by fundamentalists and non progressive individuals. Spirituality was the domain of the faith but lately science has developed with close alignment. Science ends, when reason fails and then spirituality takes over. God cannot be completely contained with in nature and therefore God’s existence is out side the science’s ability to weigh in. Scientists are not blind believers but make a critical analysis of the evidence, quite opposite to the religious approach based on blind faith and belief. On the other hand because something is vastly improbable, we need a God to explain it. Since we are profoundly ignorant about certain things we need to work on them like understanding the physiology of conscience to reduce human suffering of pain and depression. 

ਹਾਹਾ ਹੋਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ਜਬ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਤਬਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥ਹੈ ਤਉ ਸਹੀ ਲਖੈ ਜਉ ਕੋਈ ॥ਤਬ ਓਹੀ ਉਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

_Hāhā hoṯ ho¬ė nahī jānā, Jab hī ho¬ė ṯabeh man mānā, Hai ṯa¬o sahī lakẖai ja¬o ko¬ī, Ŧab ohī uho ėhu na ho¬ī._

HAHA: God exists, but also is not known to exist. When God is known to exist, then the mind is pleased and appeased. Of course the God exists, if one could only understand It. Then, alone It exists, and not this mortal being.-----Kabir, Gauri Bawan Akhari, AGGS, Page, 342-16 & 17

The Primary Good (God) does exist as It is the cause of causes and It does not cease to exist. The secondary good is what the Primary Good has created, which is intellect. The tertiary good is the self with its arrangement winding up in bodies.

The forces and qualities of Mother Nature are not blind and unintelligent they may appear so when viewed by our physical senses but in the depth of the thought they are alive and conscious. It is not irreverent to say that God acts through some form of energy (heat/electricity/magnetic/some form of waves). In history at one time people were persecuted for making scientific discoveries.
God is a sum of forces of physical nature higher than the real Self. The Higher Self is far higher than ordinary conception of God, which is limited by the imperfections of mind that imagines and fathoms It. When man’s nature becomes so sublimated that he can rise beyond thought to a higher and fuller state of consciousness and becomes enlightened with the Divine knowledge, it is then that he may stultify the nature of that “Higher Power”.
The energy/force/conscience source of life in an individual is a part of the same. 

ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ॥

_Jinī āṯam cẖīni&shy;ā parmāṯam so&shy;ī Ėko amriṯ birakẖ hai fal amriṯ ho&shy;ī._

Those who understand their own Higher Self are themselves the Supreme Akal Purkh. The One Akal Purkh is the tree of ambrosial nectar, which bears the ambrosial fruit. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 421-16

*Conclusion:*

God cannot be defined because It applies to every thing and can not be measured, Atula, Atolak (ਅਤੁਲ, ਅਤੋਲਕ.). The words such as Agochar Ached (ਅਛੇਦ), Agaadh (ਅਗਾਧ), Adisatt/Alakh(ਅਦਿਸਟ/ਅਲਖ), Agocher (ਅਗੋਚਰ), Agum (ਅਗਮੁ), Ajooni (ਆਜੋਨੀ/ਅਜੋਨੀ), Akal Moorat (ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤ), Akhut (ਅਖੁਟ), Alipaari/Alpana-(ਅਲਪਾਰੀ/ਅਲਪਨਾ), Anaath (ਅਨਾਥ), Apaah (ਅਪਾਹ), Alpat (ਅਲਿਪਤੁ/ਅਲੇਪ), Apaar (ਅਪਾਰ), Aprasa (ਅਪਰਸ), Athaha (ਅਥਾਹ), Itthrha (ਇਠੜਾ), Karta Purkh (ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ), Nirbhau (ਨਿਰਭਉ), Nirvair (ਨਿਰਵੈਰ), Niranjan (ਨਿਰੰਜਨ), Nirankar (ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ), and Saibhung (ਸੈਭੰ) have been used in Gurbani to express Its Unfathomable nature. Those who fathom It cannot behold God and those who behold God do not fathom It. God is incomprehensible and cannot be anthropomorphized since It is Infinite and hence cannot be squeezed into a finite human body. 

ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਊ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਕਵਨੁ ਭਤਾ ॥ਸਿਵ ਬਿਰੰਚਿ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਮੋਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਹਿ ਗਤਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਕਥਾ ॥ਸੁਨੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਅਵਰ ਬਿਧਿ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਬਕਨ ਕਥਨ ਰਹਤਾ ॥ਆਪੇ ਭਗਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਹੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤ੍ਰ ਕਤਾ ॥ 

_Hai nāhī ko¬ū būjẖanhāro jānai kavan bẖaṯā. Siv birancẖ ar sagal mon jan geh na sakāhi gaṯā. Parabẖ kī agam agāḏẖ kathā. Sunī¬ai avar avar biḏẖ bujẖī¬ai bakan kathan rahṯā. Āpė bẖagṯā āp su¬āmī āpan sang raṯā. Nānak ko parabẖ pūr rahi¬o hai pėkẖi¬o jaṯar kaṯā._ 

No one understands the Akal Purkh, who can understand God’s plans? Shiva, Brahma and all the silent sages could not understand the state of the Higher Power. God's sermon is profound and unfathomable. God is heard to be one thing, but is understood to be something else again; God is beyond description and explanation. God Itself is the devotee, Supreme and Master; is imbued with Itself. Nanak's God is pervading and permeating everywhere; wherever one looks he finds him there. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gujri, AGGS, Page, 498

Every individual has the liberty to understand his/her Higher Power according to his/her understanding and contact It in any way he/she likes IMHO.

Virinder


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 18, 2009)

I have seen Akal Purkh in the woods, in the fields, in the household, and in renunciation. I have seen It as a Yogi carrying His staff, with matted hair, fasting, making vows, and visiting sacred shrines of pilgrimage. I have seen It in the Society of the Saints, within my own mind, in the sky, in the nether regions of the underworld, pervading and permeating in everything. With love and joy, I sing Its Glorious Praises. I have seen It among the hermits, the ascetics, the celibates, the wandering hermits and the wearers of patched coats. I have seen It among the men of severe self-discipline, the silent sages, the actors, dramas and dances. I have seen It in the four Vedas, in the six Shaastras, in the eighteen Puraanas and the Simritees as well. All together, they declare that there is only One Akal Purkh. So tell me, from whom is It hidden? Unfathomable and Inaccessible, It is our Infinite Akal Purkh and Master; Its Value is beyond valuation. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those, within whose heart It is revealed. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1139

This sounds like monotheism to me and I like it.

Thank you vsgrewal48895

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 18, 2009)

Dear Satyaban Ji,

God is Nirgun and Sargun in Sikh Monotheistic Thought 

The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature). God has said to possess no qualities when It has drawn the world within Itself. It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation. Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity. Sikh philosophy explains the metaphysical force/ God’sWill responsible for the creation and its overall justifiable cause and action in a responsible and justified manner. It further explains that Guru and Gnosis are required to purify the conscience of the man to fit it for the companionship of the Eternal with in and thus leading to transcendental uplift.

AGGS explains the situations clearly that an individual does not have to live in a land of fantasy. Moral life cannot be lived in aloofness. Tranquility that comes through understanding and intellectual grasp of Truth is mental. God as such is indefinable but the best way it could be described is in the Mool Manter of Japji of Guru Nanak. He describes in Sidh Gost that God assumed immaculate form from formless in Mother Nature with attributes. Guru Arjan describes it beautifully in Ragas Asa and Gauri;

ਆਪੇ ਪੇਡੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਸਾਖ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਖੇਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਰਾਖ ॥੧॥ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਪੇਖਉ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੋਈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਸੋਈ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਸਰਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਥਾਪੈ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਦੁਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੈ ਕੀਨੋ ਠਾਉ ॥੩॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਖੋਇਆ ॥ ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਨੈਨ ਅਲੋਇਆ ॥੪॥੧੭॥੬੮॥

_Āpe ped bisthārī sākẖ. Apnī kẖeṯī āpe rākẖ. ||1|| Jaṯ kaṯ pekẖa▫o ekai ohī. Gẖat gẖat anṯar āpe so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. Āpe sūr kiraṇ bisthār. So▫ī gupaṯ so▫ī ākār. ||2|| Sarguṇ nirguṇ thāpai nā▫o. Ḏuh mil ekai kīno ṯẖā▫o. ||3|| Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram bẖa▫o kẖo▫i▫ā. Anaḏ rūp sabẖ nain alo▫i▫ā. ||4||17||68||_

Akal Purkh Itself is the tree, and the branches extending out, and preserves Its own crop. ||1|| wherever I look, I see that One Akal Purkh alone. Deep within each and every heart, It Itself is contained. ||1||Pause|| It Itself is the sun, and the rays emanating from it. It is concealed and revealed too. ||2|| It is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes. Both converge onto Its single point. ||3|| Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt and fear. With my eyes, I perceive the Akal Purkh, the embodiment of bliss, to be everywhere. ||4||17||68|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 387-18

ਬਾਰਨੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਨੈ ਲਖ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ ਨਾਮੋ ਹੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਏਕ ॥ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਟੇਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਬਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੂੰ ਧਨੀ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੂੰ ਸਰਗੁਨੀ ॥੨॥ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਤੁਮ ਰਖੇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਕੋ ਲਖੇ ॥੩॥ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੁਜਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਕੀਆ ਤੁਹੀ ਤਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੫॥੧੪੩॥

_Bārnai balihārnai lakẖ barī▫ā. Nāmo ho nām sāhib ko parān aḏẖrī▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Karan __karāvan ṯuhī ek. Jī▫a janṯ kī ṯuhī tek. ||1|| Rāj joban parabẖ ṯūŉ ḏẖanī. Ŧūŉ nirgun ṯūŉ __sargunī. ||2|| Īhā ūhā ṯum rakẖe. Gur kirpā ṯe ko lakẖe. ||3|| Anṯarjāmī parabẖ sujān. _
_Nānak ṯakī▫ā ṯuhī ṯāṇ. ||4||5||143||_

I am a sacrifice, dedicated hundreds of thousands of times, to my Akal Purkh and Master.Its Name alone, is the Support of the breath of life. ||1||Pause||You alone are the Doer, the Cause of causes.You are the Support of all beings and creatures. ||1|| O God, You are my power, authority and youth.You are absolute, without attributes, and also related, with the most sublime attributes. ||2|| Here and hereafter, You are my Savior and Protector. By Guru's Grace, some understand You. ||3|| God is All-knowing, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.You are Nanak's strength and support. ||4||5||143|| 
-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page 211-7

Sikhs strictly believe that there is One God, who is Nirgun (transcendent) and Sargun (immanent), and pervades in Its creation, It is omnipresent, but can never be incarnate. The principal Sikh belief puts stress upon one's actions rather than people's religious labels. While being absolute and beyond human comprehension, God can be realized and experienced through contemplation, deliberation, reflection, and service. The object of a Sikh way of life is to develop God consciousness and ultimately make him/her a candidate to receive God’s grace. Human life presents the opportunity to do so through truthful living and selfless service in the context of a house holder’s life.

Bibliography;

1. Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali Sidh Gost, AGGS, Page, 940-14
2. Guru Arjan, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 98-2
3. Guru Arjan, Gauri Sukhmani, AGGS, Page, 287-11
4. Guru Arjan, Raag Gond, AGGS, Page, 862-6
5. Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 827-16
6. Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 803-12
7. Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-4
8. Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 291-3
9. Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 250-11&13
10. Guru Arjan, Gauri Sukhmani, AGGS, Page, 290-16
11. Bhagat Kabir, Raag Gauri Bairagan, AGGS, Page, 333-6
12. Bhagat Ravidas, Raag Gauri Bairagan, AGGS, Page, 346-17


Cordially,

Virinder S.Grewal


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 19, 2009)

vsgrewal48895

Are any of your post your own words or extemporaneous?

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 19, 2009)

Dear Satyaban Ji,

Most of these are extracted from my blog Spiritualism-A Sikh Perspective on Google. There are over 142 aerticles in it. References are from AGGS, where page and line are given to go to the full Sabd.

Cordially,

Virinder


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 23, 2009)

I can't say what Sikhs are but allow me to offer two definitions from a different perspective.

Panentheism: "All-in-God doctrine." The view that the universe is part of the being of God, as distinguished from pantheism (all-is-God doctrine"). which identifies God with the total reality. In contrast, panentheism holds that god pervades the world, but is also beyond it. He is immanent and transcendent, relative and Absolute. This embracing of opposites is called dipolar. For the panentheist, God is in all and all is in God. Panentheism is the technical term for monistic theism.

Pantheism "all-is-God doctrine." A term applied to a variety of philosophical positions in which God and the world are identical. To the pantheist, God is not a Personal Lord, nor a transcendent  or formless Being, but is the totality of all existence, including universal laws, movement, matter, etc.

Definitions from "Dancing with Shiva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2009)

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to pitch in with my 2 cents.

Monotheism, Pantheism, Polytheism, Atheism and all other kinds of _isms_ one may be able to add to the above list are definitions/descriptions of belief systems which people use to believe in a deity, personified being God, except Atheism whose belief system is not to believe in such a deity. 

One must also remember that beliefs can change anytime because they are based on subjective reality- Dogmas( Hell & Heaven are just 2 examples) of each belief system, hence can not be the gateways to the ultimate Truth as they propagate to be. Absence of objective truth which is based on pragmatism makes them vulnerable to face and hence live in the realities of life called Miri- Piri in Sikhi. To compensate for this black hole, all these belief systems create mechanical rituals which have multifold advantages.

1. It makes people do something together which in result creates unity of the group performing the rituals.

2. By performing the same ritual, it gives them the sense of belongingness.

3. Places of pilgrimages are created/invented/concocted to solidify this sense of belongingness.

4. Larger the group becomes, the more power it has, hence is able to wield it onto others to lasso them, most of the times with coercion, into their respective folds.

5. Hierarchy is created with the rituals and some take advantage of that by stepping on others' feet to go up the ladder which generates power.

6. Last but not the least, no thought process is needed for all the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment, hence self improvement take backseat although are used as great facades to lasso others.

So, one can see that all the above schools of thought do not really help in developing any thought process. To the contrary, because, mechanical rituals are not meant for that.

All these people are called believers by their belief systems.

Sikhi is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality.

Guru Nanak shows us this pragmatic objective reality long before any other astronomer, scientist could ever do even with the help of the instruments.

Guru Nanak says in Japji: Patalaan pataal lakh, agassan agaas.

There are in numerous planets and many more milky ways.

We all know what the Catholic Church did to Galileo when he said that the Earth revolves around the Sun not the other way around as was the claim of Christianity then. The Catholic church modified its claim towards the objective reality only in 1992.

Some of you may ask why Sikhi is not a belief sytem? The reason is that there is no Deity- personified GOD in Sikhi.

Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity, hence Ik Ong Kaar is NOT a belief but Ik Ong kaar *IS*.

It is hard to meet the Source of the Universe and beyond, our Divine Master. Ik Ong Kaar's form is immeasurable, inaccessible and unfathomable. 

Ik Ong Kaar is above all formless and indescribable, so sublime as to be totally beyond human powers of recognition, description, or conception. 

Ik Ong Kaar according to Mool Manter is Ajuni Sahibung which means Creative Energy which is both in the organic and in inorganic, thus making Ik Ong Kaar omnipresent.

In other words,Ik Ong Kaar is all-pervading everywhere. 

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 24, 2009)

Tejwant ji:

"Monotheism, Pantheism, Polytheism, Atheism and all other kinds of _isms_ one may be able to add to the above list are definitions/descriptions of belief systems which people use to believe in a deity, personified being God, except Atheism whose belief system is not to believe in such a deity." 

That would work if the belief in a deity did not precede the "systems". However the definitions precede what is being defined can it? What I am saying is that it is not logical to create a definition and later the noun it applies to.

"To compensate for this black hole, all these belief systems create mechanical rituals which has multifold advantages."

Sikhism has not doctrine, dogma or rituals? If this is so why have a temple?

"1. It makes people do something together which in result creates unity of the group performing the rituals.

2. By performing the same ritual, it gives them the sense of belongingness."

There is nothing wrong with this is there? What goes on in a Sikh temple or mandir? It is not a cacophony of noise is it or is there some order to it? For instance do you remove your shoes before entry?

"6. Last but not the least, no thought process is needed for all the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment, hence self improvement take backseat although are used as great facades to lasso others.

I think that is up to the individual and I have stated my position on proselytizing elsewhere.

"So, one can see that all the above schools of thought do not really help in developing any thought process. To the contrary because mechanical rituals are not meant for that."

I guess it is obvious that this member can not see that.



"Sikhi is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality."

What exactly is this "objective reality" that others don't have?



"Guru Nanak shows us this pragmatic objective reality long before any other astronomer, scientist could ever do even with the help of instruments.

Guru Nanak says in Japji: Patalaan pataal lakh, agassan agaas.

There are in numerous planets and many more milky ways."

Are you sure about your time line and weren't his observations based on the Vedas? I prefer to get my science from scientists and rely on rishis, great saints and other holy men and women.

"Some of you may ask why Sikhi is not a belief sytem? The reason is that there is no Deity- personified GOD in Sikhi.

Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity, hence Ik Ong Kaar is NOT a belief but Ik Ong kaar *IS*.

It is hard to meet the Source of the Universe and beyond, our Divine Master. Ik Ong Kaar's form is immeasurable, inaccessible and unfathomable. 

Ik Ong Kaar is above all formless and indescribable, so sublime as to be totally beyond human powers of recognition, description, or conception." 

No personalized God, so does this include no transcendent intimacy during samadhi or there is no samadhi at all during meditation? I think I am misunderstanding your concept. It is my belief and prayer that God is accessible, you have said it is hard. Hence do you believe God is accessible but it is hard or that God is not accessible.

Nearing conclusion are you implying that Sikhism is the only purveyor of 
truth?

*How do Saivites regard other faiths*
* Sloka 12*
Religious beliefs are manifold and different. Saivites understanding the strength of this diversity, wholeheartedly respect and encourage all who believe in God. They honor the fact that the Truth is one, paths are many. Aum. "Dancing with Shiva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2009)

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. It gave me the impression that you did not get what I am trying to convey. It could be due to many reasons. Let's us try to see what I said and what you thought I meant.

Blue= My initial post.
Black= Satyaban's response.
Purple= My response

"Monotheism, Pantheism, Polytheism, Atheism and all other kinds of _isms_ one may be able to add to the above list are definitions/descriptions of belief systems which people use to believe in a deity, personified being God, except Atheism whose belief system is not to believe in such a deity." 



> That would work if the belief in a deity did not precede the "systems". However the definitions precede what is being defined can it? What I am saying is that it is not logical to create a definition and later the noun it applies to.


I have no idea what you are talking about.You can define your belief system anyway you like. I have no objection to that. "Systems' are created by the groups,cults,sects and religions. One has the privilege and the right to accept them or discard them if they do not jive with one's thought process.

"To compensate for this black hole, all these belief systems create mechanical rituals which have multifold advantages."



> Sikhism has not doctrine, dogma or rituals? If this is so why have a temple?


Once again your questioning is confusing and a bit suspect because it has distorted what I said. I said MECHANICAL rituals. Of course there are many meaningful rituals in life. By temple, I think you mean Gurdwara. I have no idea whether you know the concept behind Harmandir Sahib, known as the Golden Temple in Amritsar. Allow me to elaborate it a bit for you.

This is the only Gurdwara- a Place of Solace ( because Sikhs do not worship), in which one has to climb down the stairs contrary to all other religious places where one has to climb up. It is a sign of humility. 

Secondly, this is the only place where anyone from any hue,faith or creed can come and find peace within. There are many Hindu temples, Muslim Mosques and also Chruches and Synogogues where this is not possible. 

Thirdly and the most important thing about Harmandir Sahib is that it has four doors to invite all humanity.

Unlike in the Hindu Temples, nothing is worshipped in the Gurdwara. Only Gurbani from SGGS is sung for the praise of the ONE.

One more important thing which is only unique to Sikhi is the concept of Langar and Pangat which proves that equality of all humanity is not only preached with mere words but also practiced with deeds.

Hindus tried and copied the model of Harmandir Sahib and built a Hindu Temple exactly in the same form in Amritsar.

Please read the defintion of doctrine and dogma and express yourself in a comparative fashion so we can discuss that in our next post.

"1. It makes people do something together which in result creates unity of the group performing the rituals.

2. By performing the same ritual, it gives them the sense of belongingness."



> There is nothing wrong with this is there? What goes on in a Sikh temple or mandir? It is not a cacophony of noise is it or is there some order to it? For instance do you remove your shoes before entry?


Satyaban, once again you are trying to find faults with parochial thinking where there are none. I never said there is anything wrong with it. I am not criticising anything, just expressing things the way I see them. Express yourself with examples once again so we can talk about your observations or objections in our next post. One liners have more echoes in them than substance. 

"6. Last but not the least, no thought process is needed for all the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment, hence self improvement take backseat although are used as great facades to lasso others.





> I think that is up to the individual and I have stated my position on proselytizing elsewhere.


Once again, your comment to my above partial post is confusing to say the least. Please elaborate it with examples.

"So, one can see that all the above schools of thought do not really help in developing any thought process. To the contrary because mechanical rituals are not meant for that."



> I guess it is obvious that this member can not see that.


I have no idea what you can not see till you elaborate yourself with concrete examples. Sorry about that.

"Sikhi is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality."



> What exactly is this "objective reality" that others don't have?


The answer to your question is in the following verse from Jap ji by Guru Nanak. One quick example of Objective reality is that it has no Hell or Heaven which are based on subjective truth.


"Guru Nanak shows us this pragmatic objective reality long before any other astronomer, scientist could ever do even with the help of instruments.

Guru Nanak says in Japji: Patalaan pataal lakh, agassan agaas.

There are innumerous planets and many more milky ways."



> Are you sure about your time line and weren't his observations based on the Vedas? I prefer to get my science from scientists and rely on rishis, great saints and other holy men and women.


Once again, if you know something different to add to what I have already said, then please share it with us, Sikhi is all about sharing. I can only quote what Guru Nanak said and mention what happened to Galileo around the same time.

"Some of you may ask why Sikhi is not a belief sytem? The reason is that there is no Deity- personified GOD in Sikhi.

Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity, hence Ik Ong Kaar is NOT a belief but Ik Ong kaar *IS*.

It is hard to meet the Source of the Universe and beyond, our Divine Master. Ik Ong Kaar's form is immeasurable, inaccessible and unfathomable. 

Ik Ong Kaar is above all formless and indescribable, so sublime as to be totally beyond human powers of recognition, description, or conception." 



> No personalized God, so does this include no transcendent intimacy during samadhi or there is no samadhi at all during meditation? I think I am misunderstanding your concept. It is my belief and prayer that God is accessible, you have said it is hard. Hence do you believe God is accessible but it is hard or that God is not accessible.


Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Please elaborate yourself with concrete examples.



> Nearing conclusion are you implying that Sikhism is the only purveyor of
> truth?


Once again you have jumped to some conclusion, basis of which is not located anywhere in my post.


> *How do Saivites regard other faiths*
> *Sloka 12*
> Religious beliefs are manifold and different. Saivites understanding the strength of this diversity, wholeheartedly respect and encourage all who believe in God. They honor the fact that the Truth is one, paths are many. Aum. "Dancing with Shiva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami


Good for them. But the fact is that Shiva is based on mythology like many other belief systems are. I have no problem with the belief systems which are based on mythical and imaginary things and Hinduism is not the only one in this catagory.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2009)

Tejwant ji

In my opinion, you have worked out a kind of ladder for thinking about Sikhism that does highlight or profile where its distinctive features are. This makes a good schema for continued discussion. Particularly some of the points you have made do seem to be able to do that. For example, Ik Oan Kaar is not a belief. Ik Oan Kaar *IS*  --  that statement is simple and yet full of meaning.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> In my opinion, you have worked out a kind of ladder for thinking about Sikhism that does highlight or profile where its distinctive features are. This makes a good schema for continued discussion. Particularly some of the points you have made do seem to be able to do that. For example, Ik Oan Kaar is not a belief. Ik Oan Kaar *IS* -- that statement is simple and yet full of meaning.


 
Narayanjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks. The main idea of SPN is to interact and learn from each other no matter what faith or creed one many belong to. Only by sharing our ideas we can enrichen ourselves and hopefully make a difference in the world that it so badly needs.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 26, 2009)

Dear Teji Ji,

I concur with you and here are few references to confirm as to what you are saying;

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਲੇਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇਵੈ ॥ 

_Gur kī sikẖ ko virlā lėvai, Nānak jis āp vadi¬ā¬ī ḏėvai._

How rare are those who receive the Guru's Teachings. O Nanak, he alone 
receives it, whom the Akal Purkh It self blesses with glorious greatness. -----Guru Amardas, Gujri Ki Vaar, AGGS, Page, 509-13

ਵਿਰਲਾ ਕੋ ਚੀਨਸਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥

_virlaa ko cheenas gur sabad milaa-ay._

How rare are those who realize the Word of the Guru's Sabd and merge with It. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1188-12

ਕਥਨ ਕਹਨ ਤੇ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੋਈ ਵਿਰਲਾ ॥

_kathan kahan tay muktaa gurmukh ko-ee virlaa._


But rare indeed is the Guru willed, who is above this mere talk. -----Guru Arjan, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 51-15

ਸਦਾ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥

_sadaa alipat jee-aa kaa daataa ko virlaa aap pachhaanai jee-o._

He is always detached; He is the Giver of souls. How rare is that person who understands his own self.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 106-16

_ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਤ ਭੇਖੀ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥_

Ha-umai Karat Bhaykhee Nahee Jaani-aa, Gurmukh Bhagat Virlay Man Maani-aa.

Acting in egotism, the Lord is not known, even by wearing religious robes. How rare is that Gurmukh, who surrenders his mind in devotional worship. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 226-14

ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ ॥

_Gur Samjhaavai Sojhee Ho-ee, Gurmukh Virlaa Boojhai Koee._

When the Guru instructs, understanding is obtained. How rare is that Gurmukh who understands. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 224-8

ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਸਚਾ ਸੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥

_Is jug meh virlė barāhmaṇ barahm binḏeh cẖiṯ lā¬ė. Nānak jinĥ ka¬o naḏar karė har sacẖā sė nām rahė liv lā¬ė._

How rare are those Brahmins who, in this age, come to know God, by lovingly focusing their consciousness on It. O, Nanak, those who are blessed by the It's Glance of Grace, remain lovingly attuned to the Name of the True Akal Purkh. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 850-3


Cordially,

Virinder


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 27, 2009)

Friends:

My modem got fried in a thunderstorm so I will be very restricted for a week. I will try to keep up my time is no longer unlimied because I have to use machines at the library.


Peace
Satyaban


----------



## spnadmin (Jul 27, 2009)

GRRRRRRRRR! Sorry to hear that happened to you.   We had a bad thunderstorm last night also, and one the night before too. :down:


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 27, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> GRRRRRRRRR! Sorry to hear that happened to you.  We had a bad thunderstorm last night also, and one the night before too. :down:


 
Yeah this happened Saturday night and I live to the south of you, I can't say I know where Chester is but all of Pa. is north of me. I will just have to muddle through until Monday.

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## spnadmin (Jul 27, 2009)

Satyaban ji

That storm did travel from south to north. You are right about that.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 27, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Friends:
> 
> My modem got fried in a thunderstorm so I will be very restricted for a week. I will try to keep up my time is no longer unlimied because I have to use machines at the library.
> 
> ...


 
Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sorry to know that. I hope things get to normal quickly.


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 28, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Satyaban ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Sorry to know that. I hope things get to normal quickly.


 
I'll be back to normal on Monday I think. I have my machine to where it fits me well, well as possible I guess with Vista, so using public machines is a bit awkward.

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 29, 2009)

Tejwant ji
Sorry for the delay.

1. When you remarked about the "ism" you said these systems were used to "believe in a deity. My response is that the belief in a deity came first. The rituals followed as I mentioned when talking about "cultural monads"

2. You later said "no thought process is needed for all of the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment" etc. My response, which I don't think was confusing but will restate, is that how people respond and use rituals is up to the individual.

When you said "Siki is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality." do you mean it is based only on empiracal evidence? There is no faith involvved, no other states of consciousness or metaphysics?

I will have to finish later.

Peace
Satyaban


----------



## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 29, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> vsgrewal48895
> 
> Are any of your post your own words or extemporaneous?
> 
> ...


 
Dear Satyaban Ji,

Most are extemporaneous but some references are from my blog Spiritualism,-A Sikh Perspective.

Cordially,

Virinder


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 29, 2009)

Satayban ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am glad your modem is back and running.

You write:



> 1. When you remarked about the "ism" you said these systems were used to "believe in a deity. My response is that the belief in a deity came first. The rituals followed as I mentioned when talking about "cultural monads"


That may or may not be true.  Ritual in Hinduism about throwing water to the Sun has nothing to do with any personified deity. Guru Nanak showed how these rituals were meaningless. The incidence happened in Haridwar where Hindu worshippers were throwing water in the East in the morning towards the Sun.He started throwing the water to the East and when asked what he was doing it, he said that he was irrigating his fields in Punjab.They asked how could the water get that far? Guru Nanak replied that if their throwing of water could get to the Sun then why not his doing the same would reach his fields which were much closer. The Incas were also Sun worshippers. 



> 2. You later said "no thought process is needed for all of the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment" etc. My response, which I don't think was confusing but will restate, is that how people respond and use rituals is up to the individual.


I beg to differ with you. Rituals do not depend on the individual. They are part and parcel of any religion and some religions demand that from its followers, like offering food to the idols, pilgramges etc etc.



> When you said "Sikhi is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality." do you mean it is based only on empiracal evidence? There is no faith involvved, no other states of consciousness or metaphysics?


Please specify what proof or empirical evidence are you looking for? Pragmatism is a practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.



> I will have to finish later.


Will be waiting to interact. This is the only way to learn, hence the name Sikh.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Satyaban (Jul 30, 2009)

Tejwant ji:

Quote:
2. You later said "no thought process is needed for all of the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment" etc. My response, which I don't think was confusing but will restate, is that how people respond and use rituals is up to the individual. 
I beg to differ with you. Rituals do not depend on the individual. They are part and parcel of any religion and some religions demand that from its followers, like offering food to the idols, pilgramges etc etc.

What these rituals mean to an individual are up to the individual. I guess you don't see symbolism and imagry in some rituals.


Quote:
When you said "Sikhi is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality." do you mean it is based only on empiracal evidence? There is no faith involvved, no other states of consciousness or metaphysics? 
Please specify what proof or empirical evidence are you looking for? Pragmatism is a practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.

I am not looking for empirical evidence because there is none, but I thought you would endeavor to present some in keeping with being pragmatic. Spiritualism is believing in the unseen by its most fundamental definition and I would not call that pragmatic. So if you only accept that which is tangible where does that leave "The Creator" in Sikhism. Ideas are not tangible, neither are thoughts or "That One" I guess which you say Sikhism doesn't have.

I think you are redefining some words such as "deity" when I understand you to say Sikhi doesn't have one and p{censored}ing others so you don't understand what I am saying.


Quote:
I will have to finish later. 
Will be waiting to interact. This is the only way to learn, hence the name Sikh.

BTW my machine will not be operational until Monday.

As always peace to you and yours,
Satyaban


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 30, 2009)

Satyaban ji

Guru Fateh
Your Quote:


> 2. You later said "no thought process is needed for all of the above which shows that self discovery or self betterment" etc. My response, which I don't think was confusing but will restate, is that how people respond and use rituals is up to the individual.



My response:

*"I beg to differ with you. Rituals do not depend on the individual. They are part and parcel of any religion and some religions demand that from its followers, like offering food to the idols, pilgrimages etc etc.*"

You said:



> What these rituals mean to an individual are up to the individual. I guess you don't see symbolism and imagry in some rituals.



You accused me of jumping to conclusions in the other post and here it is you  doing that. You are jumping to conclusion and distorting what I said as you have done it before in the other post. One wonders why!

The question about symbolism and imagery is no where in my statement. You concocted it yourself. As asked before present your own arguments so one can interact not in any angry manner or nit picking things and coming to false conclusions.


Your Quote:


> When you said "Sikhi is not a belief system because it is based on pragmatism not on dogmas. As it is a pragmatic approach to life, it is based on objective reality." do you mean it is based only on empiracal evidence? There is no faith involvved, no other states of consciousness or metaphysics?



My response:
*
"Please specify what proof or empirical evidence are you looking for? Pragmatism is a practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems*."

Your quote



> I am not looking for empirical evidence because there is none, but I thought you would endeavor to present some in keeping with being pragmatic.



I did and I quoted Guru Nanak from Jap ji. Please read again




> Spiritualism is believing in the unseen by its most fundamental definition and I would not call that pragmatic.


 

Please elaborate yourself with examples what you  disagree with.




> So if you only accept that which is tangible where does that leave "The Creator" in Sikhism. Ideas are not tangible, neither are thoughts or "That One" I guess which you say Sikhism doesn't have.



I never said the above. I have no idea where you picked that conclusion from.




> I think you are redefining some words such as "deity" when I understand you to say Sikhi doesn't have one and p{censored}ing others so you don't understand what I am saying.



Once again, please elaborate what you are talking about. Your posts show that you see things that are not said. 


Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------

