# One Drink Too Many? A Discussion Of Alcohol And Sikhi



## Ambarsaria (Jul 6, 2011)

*This thread consists of comments moved from their original thread at http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/35694-should-we-serve-alcohol-guru-ka.html Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar 
Thanks/spnadmin*




Sinner said:


> Dear Spners and findingmywaay Ji
> 
> What is wrong with the occasional *apéritifswordfight*
> In the last two weeks ,I have noticed we have a hardcore of prolific posters here ,very good they are too! but where are all those online readers ,400 or so ,please join in Good Sikhs. I'm new too, so jump in ,test the water you might actually like it.
> This is a call to action .( admin said they want to see responses) so let us all reason out these issues, the more views there are on a topic,the less influence our personal prejudices can impact upon it!welcomemundain advance!


Let anyone who has no alcohol in their blood stand up and be counted or hold their peace  (no swordfight  :swordfight-kudiyan:  ),

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> http://www.allergy.org.au/aer/infobulletins/Alcohol_Allergy.htm
> 
> The human body constantly produces small amounts of alcohol itself. Normal levels of 0.01 to 0.03 mg of alcohol/100 ml are contained in the blood. By contrast, a blood alcohol limit for driving of 0.05 per cent is equal to around 50 mg of alcohol/100 ml of blood. Since the human body produces alcohol itself, the reasons why some individuals develop allergic reactions when they drink alcohol is curious. Allergy tests using alcohol are usually negative, but are sometimes positive to breakdown products of ethanol such as acetaldehyde or acetic acid (vinegar).


Watch out for bubbly Orange Juice if you are concerned about alcohol,


> http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen06/gen06354.htm*Orange Juice Alcohol
> 
> Question: Is there alcohol in orange juice? Has anyone ever tested  exactly how much? Is there alcohol in other non-alcoholic foods or drinks? If so, does anyone have a list?
> 
> There isn't alcohol in OJ.  But all food has some bacteria in it, and even  in the refrigerator these bacteria will start acting on the sugar in the OJ  and using it for food.  Most bacteria are fermenters.  The process of  fermentation takes glucose (sugar) and through a multi-step process turns it  into carbon dioxide and alcohol.  The OJ will taste "bubbly" or "carbonated"  and there will be alcohol present as well.  There probably wouldn't be enough  alcohol to make one feel its effects though.   Refrigeration doesn't kill bacteria, it just slows its metabolism.  If you were  to leave the OJ out on the counter for a day, this process would happen a lot  faster.*


Some breads have alcohol too, Oh my God!



> *What is the role of alcoholic fermentation by yeast in bread making?*
> 
> Yeast use alcoholic fermentation to breakdown sugar(glucose) in the  bread dough for energy.
> 
> ...


In hindsight, I am very concerned about blood donations that I have done 24 times in case it was used for a teetotaler and the extra pious  winkingmunda  peacesign

It also kind of answers the question for me where the mosquitoes get the buzz from specially after biting me  :interestedmunda:

Guru ji's and Gurbani gives us the capability to think big.  We can ignore all that and think small, as there is a choice for each one of us!  To each their own.

Sinner ji great posts and thanks for supporting SPN.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Jul 6, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

Ambarsaria ji, forgive me for this question if I have misunderstood you as sometimes I struggle to tell when you are being humorous and when serious! The body makes trace amounts of alcohol so are you using that as justification for consuming alcoholic beverages? The body also makes steroids. Does that make it acceptable to ingest steroids for bodybuilding?!

An additional point is that when OJ makes alcohol it is considered to have gone off and is very unpleasant to drink. The type of yeast used in bread is different to the yeast used in alcohol production. Fermentation in bread making is only for a very short time so you can never get drunk from it. The same cannot be said for 1 glass of an alcoholic drink!


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 6, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

findingmyway ji I hardly condone drinking but neither do I put myself on a higher ground because of it.

I have seen many a people lose their lives and families to alcoholism, some friends lost to alcoholism, made a fool of myself couple of times during my younger days.  I just do not believe in so called purity of oneself just because one does not drink, does not eat meat, does not eat eggs, etc.  I have also seen many a people die from eating high fat vegetarian diets, ghee, homo milk, sweets, etc.  There comes a time where one stops preaching and starts accepting people for what they are.  Sure we care and want everyone to be their best but the danger is too many dictums and none are taken seriously.

I challenge anyone to show themselves, their spouse and children as a family unit to claim they are not tankhayieh according to SRM.  I will regard them higher than my parents whether such are young or old.

I continue to believe that biggest time consumers are the small things that matter little.  Why is it wrong for Sinner ji to refer to an apertif or Harry Haller ji to take a mickey or two.  Whether they do or not they from their writings are as close to God spiritually as any of the other spner's that I can think of.  I also don't believe that I am conversing with proverbial people on the bottle at spn either.

It goes without saying that moderation of habits pays great dividends in what you put into your body's factory to keep you healthy and functional.  Many a substances beyond alcohol and tobacco are harmful when excessively consumed and conversely many a substances consumed in minute quantities or moderation are helpful.  I tended to a close relative in final stages of Cancer that he succumbed at a younger age.  Opiates made his exit from his body comfortable.  Many a people have been saved in the battlefield in olden days through the septic prevention use of alcohol or to numb pain.  Many a lungs have been saved through cough suppressants.

So in closing people not taking medicine if it has some alcohol in it, not using perfume because it has alcohol in it, etc.  Such people will lead to bigger and bigger circles of emptiness based on exclusivities and sense of superior living and piety.  The bodies that we are in are a miracle with much ability to tell each one individually what is suitable and what works.  The object is to keep listening to your bodies.  You may not eat meat, may not drink who knows what your other habits are and if you ignore listening to your body you will pay.

Let me cite some real examples,


With Ramdev craze the following happened,
A lady was having health issues and start drinking gourd (Karela) juice.  She got E-coli infection that no one could figure out and virtually died.  Reason the Indian Karelas had E-coli.
So what happened, thinking was blinded and habit of cleaniless was lacking.

People have been drinking gourd juice (Ghia Kaduh) is another craze
One wonders how many of those are in trouble


A gentleman close to us almost died.  He went to India and had some minor diabetic issues.  In India he was given some concoction made out of pure powdered pearls.  He was fleeced and put near death due to lack of what his body was telling him.  He does not drink and does not eat sweets.
Such stories are endless and they will most of the time will be based on not listening to your body, excessive use of some substances, vegetables, meats which are perfectly legal without any alcohol involved.
We are guilty of hijacking this thread a bit, but occasional drink in moderation does not a devil make!

In terms of the subject of the thread I do not support the serving of Alcohol in any way related to Gurdwaras.

Some of the well respected including Professor ragi, leaders at DSGMC are known to like occasional drinks.

Let us focus on our Gurus Gurbani and live with and open heart and open mind.  Sikhism will continue to evolve and so will the Sikhs.  I wish the best for both.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 7, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

I do not think any of us here, including my dear brothers sinnerji and ambersariaji, are advocating and encouraging drinking, and certainly not in the house of god, however, if we are to assume that every action takes us either closer or further away from god, and you manage to, on a weekly basis, get closer and closer, than I think those that, over a course of time, get closer will eventually merge into the light and live life, in all its facets, on a higher plane. 

Until then, all we can do is , in our own individual way, come to peace with ourselves and our vices, and balance the bliss of god, with the reality of living. Not drinking is not an automatic entry to Waheguru, in my youth, when I too drank too much, I was reasonably happy and productive, I worked hard, I played hard, but on occasion, I would give up drinking and end up doing nothing at all, I was smug that I had conquered drink, but instead of living, I became an empty vessel, nor did I become more spiritual, just more smug and judgemental. 

However, I personally think that if you are amritdhari, baptised, then you should not. I think that before you get amrit, you should consider very carefully whether you can uphold and follow the way, but for the rest of us, the odd drink is no more relevant than feelings of lust, pride, ego etc


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## findingmyway (Jul 7, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

I feel I am constantly misunderstood on this issue. Harry ji, your earlier post nailed it on the head! Abstaining is nothing to do with a holier than thou attitude nor will you ever hear me say you must give up. On the other hand if we normalise alcohol by saying oh well there is no harm in 1 drink then that takes the incentive to stop away. Abstaining from alcohol is for an individual's benefit-to allow them always to be closer to Waheguru. Change should come from inside but it can only do so when people understand the reasons for an action. If you choose to drink, that is your personal choice but it should be made with the eyes wide open and with consciousness of why Guruji felt it was not advisable. We all do things that we know Guruji advised against as none of us are perfect (least of all me) but we do these regardless of this knowledge. Let alcohol be included in that rather than trying to always insist there's no harm in 1 drink! Informed decision making gingerteakaur



> the odd drink is no more relevant than feelings of lust, pride, ego etc


True but pride, lust etc are accepted as traits that need to be tackled during our lifetime and as far as I see things, so should alcohol be. Not all will overcome lust or pride or ego and not all will overcome alcohol but that does not mean we say oh well all these things are ok for everyone, no need to try!

I feel this issue is now going round in circles. I'm sorry if I sound preachy, I just felt I should clarify. I am not looking down on anyone as almost all of my friends drink but anything in life should be an informed choice.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 7, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

Bhenji, 

I have made my peace with drink, it does not own me, it does not sing to me (anymore), I could quite happily go without it, my biggest problem is lust, that seems to me to be the final thing I need to conquer before considering the next step. When I use the word 'lust' I do not mean I am a gibbering monster undressing women in my head, I mean I enjoy pleasure, be it food or  intimacy with my wife, and that is it, the two facets of lust I have a problem with. 

We are all on our individual path, we all do the best we can, I would hate to not drink because of a 'rule' even though I really wanted to, what has that achieved?. In the same way, when I now feel lustful, I play one of IshnaBhenji's Shabads she kindly sent me, or I ring my mother!

To just blot out those thoughts will not get me anywhere, I need to understand who I am, and also what I need, to what end?

To the end that ultimately I can be at peace, not in denial, and then I believe I am in the best place at that point to take Amrit, and then follow that path to the letter. 

Sat Sri Akal


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## Ishna (Jul 7, 2011)

*One Too Many? A Discussion of Alcohol*

I have a confession.  The last time I had a drink, I got drunk, I came on here and had a tantrum (which had to be moderated) in a thread too close to my raw nerve.

Since then, and since my young colleague died unexpectedly of a liver infection, I haven't had one drop of alcohol.  I have half a bottle in the cupboard, and sometimes I get stressed and just want to drink it.  It's horrible and I don't think anyone should be encouraged to drink in the first place as it just leads on to more drinking.  One glass often leads to more glasses.  And one glass to take the edge off today turns into one glass to take the edge off tomorrow and before long one glass just doesn't cut it any more.

I had my first drink well after the legal drinking age in Australia (18).  I have always been a fairly responsible drinker, I've never drunk so much I've spewed but I've lost chunks of my memory (of time when I've been drunk).

The hardest part for me is that when I drink, I think of God, and feel closer, and talk about Waheguru and Guru Sahibs to my disinterested husband, and feel terribly guilty for it.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 7, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

Thanks Ambarsaria Ji for your defense of my posts ,you are a brave Soul.
Your confession is heard Isna Ji & Thanks for the objections too thats what discourse is.

Self control is hard for example we live a gresti life, as opposed to the life of chastity , so we must limit ourselves to one women, so why can't we be trusted to limit ourself in other things.
Many people are 'drunk' with money ,or withthemselves in general . 

What matters is where your attention is and your intention. The attention must be on not doing harm to oneself or others and the intention should be not to lose ones mind.
I am against it of course in the Langar but I feel the person who started the thread is more against alcohol and has added that context to provoke a reaction perhaps? 
When I say call to action that is not to defend alcohol ,but engage more people in dialectic reasoning, to find the truth on these matters ,I see all these views ,yet only a few posters will offer their opinion?
We know alcohol is no cure for lifes problems, nor is it 'healthy' or immoral in itself ,perhaps it is amoral. 

I feel the Gurmat precept is more against getting drunk than absolute abstinence !but that is only my personal interpretation ,I realise another interpretation would be total abstinence.
If you see me in Hell, you know I got it wrong lol


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## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

Range Rover Service Manual 4.2 V9 1994
Using GM 4.2 V8 engine on alcohol​
Thank you for your purchase of the classic Range Rover 1994 V8 Petrol 4.2, this car has a lifetime warranty from Land Rover PLC provided it is serviced regularly, and the engine is run on petrol. Please note that in the event that alcohol is used (15% gasoline 85% ethanol), although the engine will run more powerfully, you will note that the fuel economy is lower, also you will invalidate the lifetime warranty for this car, as it has not been run in accordance with this service manual.The car CAN run on an ethanol mix, but has been designed to run on petrol. Running on ethanol will eventually take some years of the life of your car, please bear that in mind when filling up with fuel, this car should provide you with a lifetime of service, and although, in the short term, the performance can be hugely increased, the long term wear and tear is also hugely increased. 

Please note that our guaranteed part exchange system will not apply if the engine shows signs of constant alcohol use, but if minor occasional use, will be at the discretion of the Manager.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

Ambarsariah ji..
In my experience...if we place ourselves on too high a pedestal (moral high ground) then when we fall off...its very painful and embarassing to say the least...ha ha
Thus I never condone calling myself...holier than thou..simply because..my beard may be whiter..longer...my kesh may be having no dandruff compared to another..my kirpan longer..sharper..my gurbani paath faster..louder...or i dont drink..or dance..or play hockey or do all those things...we just DO IT...and let the JUDGE do the judging is my guiding principle in life...we just dont have the sixth sense in abundance/Third Eye to be able to "judge" others..and the 2 eyes we have are good enough only for the outside physical seeing...not the inner mann of others..

have a Nice enjoyable weekend Ji...Chardeekalla always. Sat sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 8, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*



harry haller said:


> Range Rover Service Manual 4.2 V9 1994
> Using GM 4.2 V8 engine on alcohol​
> Thank you for your purchase of the classic Range Rover 1994 V8 Petrol 4.2, this car has a lifetime warranty from Land Rover PLC provided it is serviced regularly, and the engine is run on petrol. Please note that in the event that alcohol is used (15% gasoline 85% ethanol), although the engine will run more powerfully, you will note that the fuel economy is lower, also you will invalidate the lifetime warranty for this car, as it has not been run in accordance with this service manual.The car CAN run on an ethanol mix, but has been designed to run on petrol. Running on ethanol will eventually take some years of the life of your car, please bear that in mind when filling up with fuel, this car should provide you with a lifetime of service, and although, in the short term, the performance can be hugely increased, the long term wear and tear is also hugely increased.
> 
> Please note that our guaranteed part exchange system will not apply if the engine shows signs of constant alcohol use, but if minor occasional use, will be at the discretion of the Manager.


Harry Haller ji as a Manager (pretend) I will authorize servicing of your Engine all the time  peacesign.

I do also want to note for people scared or teetotaler of Alcohol that while fueling up with Gas containing Alcohol (specially when 10% to 15% Alcohol content which is as high as 2 to 3 times the Alcohol content in Beer) they should wear a mask to ensure the integrity of their Alcohol free body.  It will also serve a double purpose of keeping their lungs free of Gasoline/Alcohol fumes naturally permeating at most Petrol/Gas stations.   I am feeling woozy just writing about it .

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Jul 8, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*



Sinner said:


> Self control is hard for example we live a gresti life, as opposed to the life of chastity , so we must limit ourselves to one women, so why can't we be trusted to limit ourself in other things.
> Many people are 'drunk' with money ,or withthemselves in general .


 


> What matters is where your attention is and your intention. The attention must be on not doing harm to oneself or others and the intention should be not to lose ones mind.



That intention is not possible with any amount of alcohol due to the physiological effects of alcohol on the central nervous system.



> I feel the Gurmat precept is more against getting drunk than absolute abstinence !but that is only my personal interpretation ,I realise another interpretation would be total abstinence.



The main issue with the 'only drunk is bad' theory is that this is a very very grey area due to the physiological effects of alcohol. Even a tiny amount affects neurological processes as shown on the link below. The effect is also not consistent as it is affected by body type, food, mood, fatigue, medication and rate of consumption. So that means it is possible to be drunk with 1 drink only in some cases. The lowering of inhibitions (and increasing social pressure) also means it is harder to restrict to 1 drink than it is to restrict with other things such as money. Name me even 1 person that has never lost their senses while drinking during their entire lifetime? Not possible, there are always times when people cross the line into drunk. Perhaps it would be wise to also think where you draw the line for being drunk-at total loss of control or some loss of control (which is not always understood at the time due to the way alcohol alters perception)?

Money etc and alcohol cannot be compared as money only has a psychological impact on us so the control of it comes from the mind only. Alcohol also has a well documented physiological effect and that is why Guruji advised against it as that makes it harder to not be influenced by it. Willpower alone is not always enough when the central nervous system is affected so trust has nothing to do with it. The link below details this further. Money has some positive imapcts as it is necessary to function in the world and can be used for good. Name me one positive effect of alcohol?
http://www.intox.com/t-Physiology.aspx


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## Ishna (Jul 8, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

I can get quite tipsy on just a splash if liquor in a glass of coke! It's even easier to get tipsy when you're not used to drinking. And once you're tipsy you tend to lose the will to stop drinking. Why not? You're already under the influence, the bottle is just there, you won't let yourself get tipsy next time and hey, damage already done so why beat yourself up now by denying yourself more?

Alcohol should be avoided, it's not about being "holier than thou" and "I am so much more devout because I don't drink", it's about encouraging other humans to leave the poison alone. Standing by your convictions that drinking is a bad idea doesn't make you a bad person trying to impose your views on others, it's a seva which will hopefully give strength to others to leave that crazy pi$$ alone.


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## Ishna (Jul 8, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

And if you happen to be a person who can have the occasional drink, not get tipsy, not feel the NEED to drink when you've had a bad day or you're feeling tense, and you can stop at just one, then you can do what you want, it's your life.

But those people are the exception not the rule, and by not standing against alcohol consumption is like being fine with someone handing out loaded guns to people with the intention that a handful of those people will be really super shots and they might not even know it! But the vast majority will end up hurting themselves, or others, or have trouble keeping their hands off the gun.

I don't think it's worth taking the risk, personally, and I wish I'd had more personal conviction to not have got into alcohol to start with. But I come from a culture which revolves around social drinking, where drinking in your youth is a rite of passage, and I had no Sikhi and no other sangat to encourage me not to.


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 9, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*

All,

I have been away, and this is likely to only be a short visit.

The danger in alcohol consumption in the context of religious teachings is that it leads to heedlessness. Instead of moral shame and restraint possibly arising, it is time for shamelessness and immorality to have their way. This means that the person who thinks to refrain from drinking alcohol, must first see the wrongness of lying, stealing, killing, illicit sex, harsh speech, divisive speech and so on. But even this is not enough, because if this is to at least be maintained, then he must also develop wisdom. 

If someone thinks that the act of refraining from taking alcohol is itself a moral act, this is wrong understanding and a dangerous one. This is because the person’s attention is then taken away from what must be considered, namely such things as restraint from lying, stealing etc. to what in itself is only an object of attachment. People drink beer not because they want to act badly, but because they enjoy it, which makes this then, no different from drinking coffee. But of course, this enjoyment is related to the fact of getting to experience a state of mind different from normal and which coffee can’t do. But still, no one thinks to do wrong, only that it does happen.

On the other hand if the aim is restraint from immoral acts, then drinking tea or drinking whiskey, the focus is on this. Only then will refraining from alcohol consumption becomes relevant, because we know about the effect of alcohol. So if a person avoids alcohol but does not otherwise think about growing in morality, this is like holding a poisonous snake by the wrong end. Being that not only does morality not grow, in mistaking what is not morality for morality, one moves further away from the real thing. Indeed some even become self-righteous and judgmental towards other people, and this is like pointing a finger at others and not seeing the three that is pointed at oneself.

However even if one did not feel righteous about not drinking and do see the need to have morality, there is danger even then, in what in Buddhism is called Silabattamaramasa or attachment to mere rules and rituals. If one does not have any wisdom, refraining from acting wrongly may be more than just a restraint, and then even here, mischief will happen. 

The ‘attachment to self’ and consequent desire for results gives rise to courses of conduct involving the suppression of certain tendencies but invariably encouraging other kinds of unwholesome state. Suppression is not understanding, but not realizing this, one is attached to apparent results. Furthermore, failing to act morally can sometimes lead to feeling guilt, which is a form of aversion but often mistaken for good.

This is why in Buddhism; the five precepts are to be seen as ‘training rules’ rather than a kind of commandment. Given the extent of defilements, it is to be expected that evil through body, speech and mind will continue to arise. Therefore not only should we not be disturbed by any chance transgression of the precepts, the attachment and aversion which arises in the course of our daily lives, should not be made into a problem. And we should not go so far as to for example, decline from taking a sip of alcohol when everyone else present is doing it in a toast. 

In conclusion, the development of understanding must come first. From this then comes a true basis for morality. And when this happens, no need to ask anyone, what is right and what is wrong, because you’d know, and in the end, it is for each person to guard his own mind.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 9, 2011)

*Re: Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar?*



findingmyway said:


> That intention is not possible with any amount of alcohol due to the physiological effects of alcohol on the central nervous system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Findingmywayji, 

Just so my posting is not misconstrued, my position as always, is that the drinking of alcohol will hinder your progress through sikhi. 

Although bhenji, you raise some absolutely valid points, I do not think we need to justify, medically, why sikhs should not drink, the good book says so, and that is enough for me, and should be enough for anyone else. 

However, and speaking only for myself here, when I have been overcome with lust, I have been more out of control than having a drink, when pride has taken over me, I have acted in a way that shames me now, as for anger, I am not an angry person, but when I do get angry, I very rarely express it, I just get very very quiet, reason being, If I say something, I will end up saying something I will regret, So I never ever say anything in anger, and I just end up getting sad, and very negative. 

The point being that this is getting quite unfair with all the attention being on drink, its very simple, should we drink, no, we should not, any  more than we should be in control of the five thieves, which can have a much more negative effect on our lives than a drink. In my experience, all the people I know that became alcoholics were addicts, if they had not discovered alcohol, it would have been something else, there were deep underlying problems with each and every one of them. I am not sure I know of anyone who drank for the sake of drink and then ended up on the scrapheap. 

When we as a society come down equally as hard on all the vices we are supposed to stay away from, and see the effect of the liberation from such, believe me, it will make the giving up alcohol argument seem very petty. 

I will tell you why there is such a problem with alcohol,its visual. I can honestly say my heart breaks when I see a Sirdar with a turban having a beer in a pub. It just looks wrong, and as much as my argument may seem in favor of the odd drink, it is not, I am not in any way advocating the odd whisky, but we have to be realistic and fair, and it bothers me hugely that if you get people to concentrate on giving up the odd drink, which they may enjoy, to find greater spiritual fulfillment, they are going to be very disappointed when they find out that they would have been better off spending their energy becoming less angry, less proud, less lustful, all of which could contribute to a better and more peaceful mind all around

apologies if i have offended anyone


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 9, 2011)

Dear Harry Ji 

Do not judge the sardar in the pub it might be one light beer he is consuming after a week of heavy work ,there is no shame in him having a beer (aslong as he does not pinch someone elses!)

Dear Isna Ji and Way Ji

I understand that we should not encourage anyone ,as three members of my extended family are alcoholic I understand what a waste of a life it can be.

I did not mean to say the mind is unaffected by the effects of alcohol,I said apperitif originally ,(means with your meal), so personally I feel no effect of a single drink.
The 'attention' in this context was wrong ,I'm reading a chapter about attention on my kindle computor application.I should not mix that into this issue.That is for another thread , 'the cultivation of higher attention.'
Might take me twenty years to post it though lol


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## Harry Haller (Jul 10, 2011)

Sinnerji, 

I would never judge anyone brother, and I agree there is absolutely no shame in having a beer, although I say  again, on the whole, it will take you further not closer to the creator, but that is a choice we all live with, including myself.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 10, 2011)

Veera 
Sometimes we judge without actually thinking about it,everyone sees only the visual, perhaps it was even a nonalcoholic beer!
May I pose a question in the Socratic style?
If a man drinks the odd beer but otherwise lives in Gods fear in his innerself and has charity in his heart and his attention hardly ever strays from the infinite,and another lives on softdrinks but has no real fear, lives not the innerlife and his attention is not on the essence of life,then who would you say was closer to the Lord.
Discontentment is the poison in our minds,alcohol abuse is a symptom of the emptyness we feel when Maya wears us down, some feel it is an antidote for the poison.
Even if some take it further to feel it's intoxication,it does not last long ,and usually they are more depressed than before trying to get drunk.
The one effect that is 'good' is that when tipsy we start to get honest with our selves and others and we stop projecting an image of what we want to be and see ourselves as we are.(some won't like what they see though!)

The social person cares more the company or than the occasion than the beverage consumed, if thats not the case then you may have an issue with it.
ਤੇਰੈ ਭਰੋਸੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮੈ ਲਾਡ ਲਡਾਇਆ ॥

Confused Ji

That excellent post did not seem to come from someone who is confused?


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## Archived_Member16 (Jul 10, 2011)

July 10, 2011

*Intoxicants and Pleasure*



YouTube        - ‪Intoxicants and Pleasure‬&rlm;


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 10, 2011)

Sinner ji,




> That excellent post did not seem to come from someone who is confused?



It seems like that because you got to experience only the product of those rare moments when there is some inspiration. But of course I didnâ€™t need to tell you that. ;-) On another list I go by the name of â€œIgnorantâ€ and if I join a new one, I think it will be â€œDeliriousâ€. 0
But thanks for your compliments Sinner ji.

Iâ€™d now like to comment on this part of your post:




> The one effect that is 'good' is that when tipsy we start to get honest with our selves and others and we stop projecting an image of what we want to be and see ourselves as we are.(some won't like what they see though!)



When I was still drinking, there were times when under the influence of alcohol, Iâ€™d be inspired to talk about religion. At those times like you, I would think that the drink created a positive effect. But now I donâ€™t think so, because as I said, I believe that alcohol intake conditions heedlessness. It doesnâ€™t sound right to me that a little of it creates positive conditions and when more has been consumed, suddenly the positive becomes negative. 

I think what happens is that we become uninhibited in what weâ€™d like to express, and this doesnâ€™t come from any good intention. Perhaps also, that it is a matter of attachment coming in the place of what otherwise would have been aversion which we happen to see the fault in, but not in the attachment that is now. If we have a tendency to talk about women, weâ€™d talk about the topic more freely and if we like to talk about religion, we do this even more. This I believe is all centred on â€œselfâ€ and what self likes to do. 

And as I said also, that shamelessness increases. So what comes across as honesty when drunk may actually be an act of exposing oneself. At times that we are not drunk, thereâ€™d be some holding back due to moral shame, which is what is lacking when under the influence of alcohol. We reveal secrets when drunk to almost anyone, and this is clear sign that it comes from an unwholesome state of mind. And not only this, but we can see that we also talk freely about other people, present or not, and this again shows lack of concern for the other.

What do you think Sinner ji?


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 10, 2011)

Confused ji isn't the real truth one that is stated without intention.  I am not condoning, encouraging or shareholder in a brewery.

I take particular note of the following in your post,



> I think what happens is that we become uninhibited in what weâ€™d like  to express, and this doesnâ€™t come from any good *intention*. Perhaps  also, that it is a matter of attachment coming in the place of what  otherwise would have been aversion which we happen to see the fault in,  but not in the attachment that is now. If we have a tendency to talk  about women, weâ€™d talk about the topic more freely and if we like to  talk about religion, we do this even more. This I believe is all centred  on â€œselfâ€ and what self likes to do.


I have known people who were womanizers, cheaters, etc., and would refuse to drink.  This they did to avoid having loose lips.  As the saying goes, "Loose lips sink a thousand ships".

Had they started drinking, would it not have resulted in them being exposed early to recognize their bad ways versus continuing the same in the name of, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!".

I think drinking cuts in many directions and it ain't all bad otherwise we will have to call far too much good humanity bad including the power of some people to do extreme evil which they don't in spite of drinking.



> When I got him out he was near froze solid and shivering. He was shaking  so hard that I wasted half a glass of whiskey trying to aim it for his  mouth. Must have got enough of it into him, though, since it did seem to  bring him back to life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Confused ji I do enjoy your posts.  You have much wisdom and a different perspective from us in Sikhism and it is great for mutual learning, or at least for me.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 11, 2011)

'Confused' Ji

I understand what you are saying ,but like after drinking a truth serum we only expose how well adjusted we are,I also like my Veera do not condone it , I just feel it has nothing much to do with Sikhi, as that is a spiritual journey ,so what would a 'spirit 'you consume have to do with it! 
I feel that we should not seek an experience from a beverage,I feel those who do not feel the 'experience' of faith might try to do so.
To me abstinence is not a 'categorical imperative' ,it is has merit though, I see however more merit in those who drink the essence of the Guru's Word.


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 11, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,


Good to be conversing with you again. 0



> Confused ji isn't the real truth one that is stated without intention.  I am not condoning, encouraging or shareholder in a brewery.
> 
> I take particular note of the following in your post,
> 
> ...



Intention is there in each moment of experience, in other words, there is no moment when intention does not arise. It can however be good, bad or neither depending on the particular type of consciousness which it accompanies. 

When one decides to drink alcohol, this is desire, and when under its influence, again it must be desire most of the time. Good exists during moments such as generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, understanding, respect and so on, and these can arise at any time at all. When under the influence of alcohol however, if good does arise, this will be *in spite of* having taken the alcohol. So we must be very careful not to come to a conclusion that perhaps it is because of the alcohol that good arose, since this would most definitely be a wrong understanding. 

What no doubt does arise are much ignorance and much attachment. And it is due to the influence of wrong understanding that certain manifestations of these are sometimes mistaken for good. This gets worse when like this man named Gurdjieff, because of the kind of misperception and wrong understanding, one starts to believe that it may be good to take alcohol within limits and controlled. And the consequence of this is enslavement of a heavy kind.   



> I have known people who were womanizers, cheaters, etc., and would refuse to drink. This they did to avoid having loose lips. As the saying goes, "Loose lips sink a thousand ships".
> 
> Had they started drinking, would it not have resulted in them being exposed early to recognize their bad ways versus continuing the same in the name of, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!".



Good and evil comes down not to outward action, but the state of mind. In the example you give, had the person drunk and got exposed, this may or may not have resulted in a decision to stop cheating or womanizing. What however is clear is that if he does end up stopping these things, but not as a result of understanding nor due to moral shame, but instead due to fear, nothing good comes out of this. Perhaps in the eyes of â€˜societyâ€™ and those around him who have their own interest in mind, he is seen as good, but this is not the criterion to consider such kind of thing. After all this would be exactly the same as the praise heâ€™d get for not drinking as in what you state, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!" Because in reality, the ignorance continues, and attachment and aversion simply changes objects and manifests in other forms. Perhaps even in the decision to pray and go to the Gurdwara regularly, which I think youâ€™d agree is something none of us should be fooled by. 



> I think drinking cuts in many directions and it ain't all bad otherwise we will have to call far too much good humanity bad including the power of some people to do extreme evil which they don't in spite of drinking.



That could be due to the tendency for restraint which as I said above, would arise in spite of the drinking. And remember, that it is never *the person* that good or evil is. Good and bad refer to states of mind. Drinking alcohol is motivated by attachment, and refraining from drinking is a training rule. So none of this involves pointing a finger at others. Indeed we should not judge people; however neither should we make the mistake of judging an evil act as being good. 

Why should one have a problem with the idea that ignorance, attachment and aversion thrives and good is extremely rare by comparison in the world today? Do you not see evidence of this every day? That so many people drink is not unexpected. Pointing a finger at them is not going to help. On the other hand however, it must be worse if we actually condone drinking to any degree. 



> > Quote:When I got him out he was near froze solid and shivering. He was shaking so hard that I wasted half a glass of whiskey trying to aim it for his mouth. Must have got enough of it into him, though, since it did seem to bring him back to life.
> >
> >
> > Abraham Lincoln, on what it took to save his dog after pulling him from a river where he went through thin ice



Alcohol as medicine is another matter, although I question the claim that it helps the body get warm, but this is another topic. Drinking as medicine (and only a little would be required in this case) is not the same as drinking to experience pleasure. 



> Confused ji I do enjoy your posts. You have much wisdom and a different perspective from us in Sikhism and it is great for mutual learning, or at least for me.



Thank you for saying it Ambarsaria ji.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Gurfateh

As this is turning into a bit of a one sided debate, I would like to ask two questions:-

1. How many people would like to see drinking in moderation included in the Rehat Maryada.
2. At what point in your life do you do your best to comply with the present Rehat Maryada.

I know I have compared drinking to lust/ego and the rest of the five thieves, however one small matter escaped me, when you feel lust, or pride, more often than not, its a feeling in your belly you have no control over, ie, you cannot help yourself, it is in your head but to have a drink, you have to make an effort to pour out a glass, and drink it, so maybe they are not the same, maybe its a lack of discipline coupled with a desire to do what we want and fit it in with sikhi. 

For the record, my answers would be

1., NO
2. After Amrit Chakia, all time spent before should be in getting ready for your new life as khalsa, make your mistakes, learn, conquer your demons, and when you are ready, kneel down and offer the Guru your head

comments please dear sangat


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> As this is turning into a bit of a one sided debate, I would like to ask two questions:-
> 
> ...


Harry Haller ji people drafting the SRM at times were wiser than some of the people manipulating SRM.  Alcohol is of course against Gurmit but it is a minor discretion like any indiscretion against what is written in SRM.  See the quoted below,

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> gurimq dI rihxI​ (Living in light of Guru’s teachings)​
> 
> 
> k)  hr iek kMm krn qoN pihlW vwihgurU A`gy Ardws kry[
> ...


In the above you will notice that the onus is on you if you consider you have done a Rehat (not Kurehat) indiscretion.  In a very flexible way, SRM provides you support for being a Tankhayia if you want to bring it to Sangat (congregation's attention).  If you can handle it within yourself, it is up to you.

Now going to Gurdwara, I have not seen huge line ups of people wanting to admit their "Tankhayia" status like,


Users of Alcohol
With Ears or nose pierced
Having bought a Lottery ticket (Gambling)
......  list to be a Tankhayia is very long
......  I hazard a guess that everyone at SPN is at a minimum a Tankhayia
......  There are many at SPN who done Kurehats,
Let us make sure we don't confuse "Kurehat" with rehats as Kurehats are,
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​


> 1)      kysW dI by-AdbI
> Desecration of hair.
> 
> 2) ku`Tw Kwxw[
> ...


  There is nothing more and nothing less.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> As this is turning into a bit of a one sided debate, I would like to ask two questions:-
> 
> ...



Harry ji

First thanks for all  of your provocative and thoughtful comments. 

It is difficult to define "moderation" without opening the door to an infinite number of takes on the word "moderation." What is moderate drinking? Do you think that anyone who has an answer will be defining "moderate" in terms of a number? Or in terms of the effect one or more drinks has on his/her life? Either way their answers  in turn open the door to a lot of rationalization: _e.g., 3 drinks is too many because I lose my cool and get paranoid, so that means that 2 drinks is OK._ I do not drink, and would be baffled to know what to say. At one time I did drink occasionally and was one of those individuals who could have one martini and that would be that... to the marvel of every one else who could not stop at 2. All of that makes me a poor choice of people to answer the question, like most non-drinkers, which Sikhs are supposed to be.

The question runs askew of what the SRM is getting at. Alcohol has no significant benefits and many demerits. It is a destroyer of life and moral fabric at its worse. The SRM is merely repeating the message of Gurbani --- _'don't do this to yourself, don't drink. '_ 

My personal opinion: there is no genuinely clean and logical way to ponder where to draw the line, or even know if a line can even be drawn.  So I would say even 1 drink is 1 drink too many... only my interpretation. 

The second question is hard to understand, unless you are asking: When do you comply and when do you ignore parts of the SRM?  Or are you asking at what moment in your life did you begin to comply with the SRM?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Ambersariaji, please excuse my ignorance, but are you saying the drinking alcohol would not require re baptism for an amritdhari sikh?

SPNadminji, I suppose I am asking at what point do you embrace fully the SRM and not just pick the bits out of it you feel you can cope with, for example, logically, if you were able to fulfill 50% of the SRM, personally I would see it as pointless taking baptism, maybe 80% but, if you can only do say, 30% then you would be better off waiting, does that make sense?


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

Harry Haller ji some comment below,


harry haller said:


> Ambersariaji, please excuse my ignorance, but are you saying the drinking alcohol would not require re baptism for an amritdhari sikh?
> 
> _That is correct.  Only Kurehats require re-baptization._
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Ambersariaji, 

It is quite interesting to note that the use of  alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, are forbidden, but it is the addiction to them that is the Tankhayia. 

Of course this means having to use your brain instead of following blindly

Im going to have to concede that Guru gave as free will,  to encourage us to find our own peace within his guidelines, thank you again for your clarification, btw thats two thank you's in 5 mins, I must have gone up a decimal point


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

I had a long chat with my wife about this, my own conclusion is that there is nothing with the odd drink, as long as it is  in moderation, and it does not own you, so, no I do not feel that the odd drink is going to stand in your way to finding the creator, and in finding the creator, you will find that your desire for the odd drink is diminished to nothing, at which point you are completely in consonance, but not out of fear, or duty, or respect, but out of sheer choice, however this begs another question, what do we do about our youth, how do you explain to a 19 year old turbanned sikh, who is looking to you for guidance about drink, that he needs to make his own peace with it, and I think that is the key issue here.

 we are, mostly  that have contributed to this posting for moderation, grown men, who have seen life and gone through the curious phase, how do we guide our kids??


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## findingmyway (Jul 17, 2011)

It  is not about addiction but about controlling your mind. addiction is  only 1 form of losing control. Even 1 drink causes you to lose control as  even 1 drink will lower inhibitions somewhat whether you realise this or  not. Even 1 drink is not allowed as per sikhi. Alcohol  affects the mind more than tobacco but it is more socially acceptable which  is why it is defended more often. If you are ashamed to drink in  Gurdwara then you should not be drinking at home. If its  not about the effect on your mind and the way it makes you feel then why  not just have fruit juice or something else in your cup?





Sinner said:


> Dear Harry Ji
> Do not judge the sardar in the pub it might be one light beer he is  consuming after a week of heavy work ,there is no shame in him having a  beer (aslong as he does not pinch someone elses!)


I am not judging but I do not understand why the bottle or glass has to contain a beer rather than a soft drink? Please explain.




> Dear Isna Ji and Way Ji
> I understand that we should not encourage anyone ,as three members of my  extended family are alcoholic I understand what a waste of a life it  can be.


By saying to drink is ok, you are encouraging.




> Had they started drinking, would it not have resulted in them being  exposed early to recognize their bad ways versus continuing the same in  the name of, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!".


Not if anyone around them was also drunk!




harry haller said:


> I had a long chat with my wife about this, my  own conclusion is that there is nothing with the odd drink, as long as  it is  in moderation,


That's the point! Moderation is not possible all the time.


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## findingmyway (Jul 17, 2011)

> I think drinking cuts in many directions and it ain't all bad


I've asked several times but still no-one has told me a good point of drinking.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 17, 2011)

Findingmyway ji,
The point of drinking, like all other things, is to run after a pleasant experience or to run away from an unpleasant experience. 

Lol that sounds funny (and sad and pathetic), since we are usually doing that most of the time.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 17, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> I've asked several times but still no-one has told me a good point of drinking.


findingmyway ji it is fun, comaradarie, way to chill out physically and the way people choose to do so.  To achieve the same ends you cannot keep suggesting that you keep stuck to spirituality or do this instead of that.  People have their ways.

Not that people drinking lose spirituality by default or always.  It is part of creation giving each and everyone to their own ways and flexibility as a wholesome package with some goods, some bad and some in-betweens.

The sooner people accept how others are and not how they want them to be, the sooner possible communication happens in a positive atmosphere and then one has a way to suggest better ways.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Jul 17, 2011)

The drinkers on the thread seem to enjoy wilfully misunderstanding me ot perhaps it is my fault for not expressing myself as well as I should. I do not project my expectations of others but simply state what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says. Most of my family and friends are drinkers and I have never told them to stop. However, I have respect for my family members who drink as they are honest and courageous enough to admit that drinking is not allowed in Sikhi but they want to do it anyway. They do not try and rationalise it. There are a lot of things I do wrong too but I can also admit I am in the wrong according to Gurbani without forcing others to approve of me and what I do.

It is not about dictating do this and do that but about taking responsibility for one's own actions and being honest to yourself. It is about understanding Gurbani and not changing the meaning to make oneself feel better.

I personally see alcohol as a bigger hindrance than not keeping kesh. However, as I said earlier I have more respect for someone who is honest about what they are doing, why and how it fits in with what we are taught by our Guru's.

I never said that a person loses spirituality by default from drinking. However, due to the physiological effect of alcohol and other drugs, it can act as a hindrance to spirituality, at least while partaking in consuming the substance. Yes lots of other things also act as a hindrance but that doesn't mean we can ignore any of them. What a person does with that information is up to them. *However, on a Sikh discussion forum I will keep stating what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on this issue in a non-judgemental way.*

Comraderie and chilling out can be achieved with the same people, same atmosphere with a soft drink in the glass. No-one is staying teetollalers have to be complete stick in the muds! If you can't even conceive giving up anything then that is an addiction!

I repeat, I am not saying you must give up alcohol. However, I am saying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is clear on this issue so the choice is yours. Knowing and following are 2 different things.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 17, 2011)

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findingmyway said:


> The drinkers on the thread seem to enjoy wilfully (I don't willfully) misunderstanding me ot perhaps it is my fault for not expressing myself as well as I should. I do not project my expectations of others but simply state what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says (Let us say what Sikh Rehat Maryada says). Most of my family and friends are drinkers and I have never told them to stop. However, I have respect for my family members who drink as they are honest and courageous enough to admit that drinking is not allowed in Sikhi but they want to do it anyway (I believe that is what so called drinkers or like who do not take it as seriously are stating.  These are not Alcoholics trying to find a drink at the first instance that they can find it.). They do not try and rationalise it. (I did not rationalize but stated what I feel) There are a lot of things I do wrong too but I can also admit I am in the wrong according to Gurbani without forcing others to approve of me and what I do.
> 
> It is not about dictating do this and do that but about taking responsibility for one's own actions and being honest to yourself. (People taking an occasional drink cannot be classified dis-honest just for that action.  When someone drinks they are not calling it Orange juice
> 
> ...


  The above is in the essence of a dialog, not to justify drinking or encouraging, and neither to classify people as though if you drink you are bad and if you don’t drink you are good.  Good and bad is lot deeper than such.

  Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 17, 2011)

Dear Veera

Sorry you had to debate against the mighty 'Way' yourself,I was a bit busy with my CV.

I myself think it is not good or bad as a substance,the abuse of it is wrong.
Just as the love of money is the root of all evil and not money.

I drink not because it is good but because I prefer to drink a little wine with my bread.
I don't like soft drinks full of sugar or artificial sweetner but I do like Ginger beer .
Any way who cares what we drink, you know what it all ends up as !winkingmunda


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## findingmyway (Jul 17, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,
I  have never said people who drink are good or bad but the act of  drinking is destructive and to date no-one has given me a positive of it  that cannot be achieved by other ways. You keep insisting I am calling  drinkers bad and that is wilfully misunderstanding me. It is the  substance that is bad due to its effects on the body and mind (even in small doses).

  Gurbani is eternal, the SRM can change. Gurbani states alcohol and other  intoxicants cannot be consumed. I have delved into this extensively  previously so please go back and check the other threads. Having said  that even the SRM states alcohol should not be consumed, as you have  stated in a previous post.

 Using what happens in society is  muddying the waters as a way of getting acceptance for drink. Guru Nanak  Ji did not do this but used philosophy to determine beliefs. Alcohol  affects the brain and this is the rationale for it being mentioned in  Gurbani along wioth other drugs. In the modern wrold, alcohol has been  legalised so most people don't (or won't) realise it is a drug, an  intoxicant even in small amounts.

 I do not understand the  comment about soft drink. By definition a soft drink is one which does  not contain alcohol so your comment makes no sense. I still do not  understand why the insistence on accepting alcohol? Maybe we should all stick to plain old water!

I am currently working 7days/wk so won't be logging in for some time so you have plenty of opportunities to twist my words and paint me as judgmental even though that is not what I am saying.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 17, 2011)

findingmywayji I have no plans to respond to your posts on this subject further.

I respect your many other contributions and one difference is not worth wasting all that for.  I generally greatly appreciate and like your write-ups. 

Sat Sri Akal.


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## texassikhstudent (Jul 17, 2011)

As a twenty year old college student, I have witnessed all kinds of drinking habits. The problem with alcohol is acknowledging your limitations. Most college students drink for the sole purpose of getting drunk. Others drink to fit in. These students often become so intoxicated that they perform unwise actions. Some are so held by the drink that it becomes a major deterrent from school work, and leads to dropping out of college. I have seen close friends fall into this trap. I have on the other hand, met college students who drink for the "'drinks sake." These students are more akin to cheese connoisseurs, and drink very little, very infrequently, and only for flavors. I think that removing all alcoholic beverages is important for most people, who are easily led to intoxication. In small amounts alcohol has as little of an effect as the caffeine in a soda has. Perhaps it is OK for someone to drink in small amounts, if the have the fortitude to drink very little. 

I drank occasionally over the last two years, usually with 2-4 month breaks between a single drink. I haven't drank in about six months and don't really have a need for it in the future. I can see myself living without alcohol as I come closer to taking Amrit, but I hope my experiences in modern college culture prove insightful for all!


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## Harry Haller (Jul 19, 2011)

Having read back a few pages, and absorbed all arguments, it is clear that everyone has a valid point. 

Should we as sikhs drink? well, no, according to the SGGS, we should not. 
Is there anything wrong with a sikh drinking? now that is the million dollar question, in the eyes of the guru, yes, but the guru gave us free will, although in the past I have put drinking on a par with lust/anger, I think it is more related to body piercing in terms of deviation from Gurmukh, I think the answer is between us as individuals and the guru. 

Should we play down the huge culture of drinking in sikhism and try and educate our young to stay away from it, possibly, but that would make some of us hypocrites. we could all agree publicly that drinking is a bad thing, for the sake of the kids, and carry on in private. 

I would be most interested to know if the SGGS makes any comment about the addictive natures of alcohol, or is it just the intoxicating effects. I am aware that SGGS mentions addictions, but I am talking about alcohol addiction in particular, as it is the addiction that seems to be the biggest concern among our community.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 19, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Having read back a few pages, and absorbed all arguments, it is clear that everyone has a valid point.
> 
> Should we as sikhs drink? well, no, according to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we should not.
> Is there anything wrong with a sikh drinking? now that is the million dollar question, in the eyes of the guru, yes, but the guru gave us free will, although in the past I have put drinking on a par with lust/anger, I think it is more related to body piercing in terms of deviation from Gurmukh, I think the answer is between us as individuals and the guru.
> ...


Harry Haller ji I did search for Alcohol but there are lot of symbolic references to effects of wine or to drink the nectar of understanding rather than be imbued by wine. 

So put the word wine in the following and search,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=english

There is generic reference to addiction my belief is it has lot more to do with opium.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1180&english=t&id=50854#l50854

It is only in SRM as "violation of a rehat" in reference to addiction.

I was shocked that for a document like SRM there is reference to "Cocaine" addiction!  Still as "rehat violations" and not "Kurehaets".

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2011)

Maybe what we should be debating are the people that encourage others to drink by the copious amounts of alcohol on display at most sikh weddings. That is what we are known for, above anything, 'boy can you guys drink'. But isnt it strange that where you have a wedding with no drink, its not just the drink that is absent, its also the huge luxury cars, the ostentatious dress, the need to have everyone saying balleh balleh, the langar is simpler but much more tasty, and everyone realises that they are there for a ceremony to celebrate something, as opposed to a non ending pea{censored} parade. 

I think we should focus on the image of drinkers that sikhs have ,before we start pointing the finger at those whose energies would be best spent finding the creator, rather than trying to control a social pleasure that does not terminate in intoxication.


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