# Claims In The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Are False



## sikhimylife (Oct 4, 2011)

http://www.bayanimills.com/2011/10/01/divine-insight-does-nasa-consult-the-guru-granth-sahib/

*These are not my opinions but of a publisher by the name of Bayani Mills, I actually think the publisher is taking what Guru Ji is saying out of context and would to get more speculation from Sikhs of how they perceive what the Guru is saying. Then I'll just let my mind contemplate the replies *

The SGGS makes many vague and subjective statements, many of which are simple musings, interpreted to mean various things, and much if the rest can be derived from general observations.

Claims in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib are false
Many Sikh maintain the SGGS is “100% true”, so I’ll present some of the blatantly false statements made in the GGS about the cosmos.

Guru Granth Sahib states:
“From this primal void, came the moon, the sun and the earth.”
SGGS p1037

This is wrong.

We know that the Earth, Moon, and the Sun need particular elements to form them – they is not pop in to existence, nor were they instantaneously created.

Big Bang nucleosynthesis refers to the production of nuclei other than those of H-1. Big Bang nucleosynthesis begins about three minutes after the Big Bang, when the universe has cooled down sufficiently to form stable protons and neutrons, after baryogenesis.

Big Bang nucleosynthesis produced no elements heavier than beryllium, due to a bottleneck: the absence of a stable nucleus with 8 or 5 nucleons. In stars, the bottleneck is passed by triple collisions of helium-4 nuclei, producing carbon (the triple-alpha process). However, this process is very slow, taking tens of thousands of years to convert a significant amount of helium to carbon in stars, and therefore it made a negligible contribution in the minutes following the Big Bang.

The formation of the elements that made our solar system took billions of years to come together to eventually form the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon.


Guru Granth Sahib states:
“From this primal void, came the four sources of creation, and the power of speech.”
SGGS p1037

Language has emerged out of the social nature of primates that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years – it was not created.


Guru Granth Sahib states:
“You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word! Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.”
SGGS p3

This is wrong for the same reasons as stated earlier about Big Bang nucleosynthesis.

Water requires hydrogen and oxygen, not available at the beginning of the universe. Oxygen had to be created through the formation of stars. There is no way “rivers” started to flow.


Guru Granth Sahib states:
“The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits.”
SGGS p5

This is wrong.

We CAN perceive these expanding limits, in fact we have, and we know that The Universe is 13.7 billion years old with an increasing rate of accuracy.


Guru Granth Sahib states:
“Creating the sun and the moon, He infused His Light into them. He created the night and the day; Wondrous are His miraculous plays.”
SGGS p1279

This is wrong.

The moon does not emit light, it reflects the light from the sun. We can even demonstrate how it happens.


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## spnadmin (Oct 4, 2011)

*Re: "Claims in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib are false"*



> These are not my opinions but of a publisher by the name of Bayani Mills, I actually think the publisher is taking what Guru Ji is saying out of context and would to get more speculation from Sikhs of how they perceive what the Guru is saying. Then I'll just let my mind contemplate the replies



sikhmylife ji,

I agree with you. The copy of the article could with reflection on the part of all be a very interesting discussion.

But.... something about the arguments against SGGS claims seem almost childish. As if the scientist could not help being so literal. I found myself laughing. Wondering now if others share my reaction. And wondering what their reasons are.


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## Ishna (Oct 4, 2011)

*Re: "Claims in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib are false"*

I just shake my head and shrug.  It is all very literal, and if you read the Gurbani and get swept into the rhythm of it (even in poxy ol' English) it makes beautiful sense all in context and all as an awesome song of WOW.

The author seems to be focusing on only those tuks which mention creation.  The author neglects that the Big Bang Theory is still a Theory (as well as a TV show... come on, you knew I'd slip TV in there, hehe).  And as any good scientist should know, you can't take your theory as proven until it's proven and the only way I can imagine humans can prove it is by reproducing it.  Gurbani makes no claims to talk about the how or when the universe was created, it is not the subject matter of the text! (I say 'text' with all due respect to SGGS _/\_ ).

I think the aim of these tuks is to expand the mind of the reader and bring it to it's metaphorical knees with awe that we are so tinsie tinie and the Creative Force is so totally immense and wonderous.

At Gurbani class on Sunday, I really enjoyed it when Uncle Ji got all excited with moustaches bristling, eyes gleaming, giggling, almost jumping out of his chair telling us how our earth, in our galaxy, if you look at it in the context of the UNIVERSE, would be like a grain of sand on the end of your fingertip.  And we are in there with our arrogance and our pride - we are so small!

Back to the proper subject of the thread however...  The author seems to confuse SGGS with other religious scriptures which indeed claim to be scientific thesis.  SGGS is not like that.  SGGS is the thesis of the poetry of the soul and needs to be read with the right side of the brain, not the left.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 4, 2011)

I can take lines/tuks from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, use some imagination in interpreting with a taint of convenience and prove what I want!  So what is the issue.

I take complete shabads, gurbani compositions and whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and it all falls by the wayside. 

You need imagination to understand or create non-sense, I suppose some choose the latter.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 4, 2011)

I think that the person making interpretation of the quote pp1037,he has confused himself with the proper meaning of the word "Sunnum" in the given quote. Here the meaning of the word Sunnum is being considered as "Void" so he feels that the claims in SGGS ji are false.
We can look at the actual meaning of the word 'Sunnum" as reference for the Non Active State of the matter of the Universe then the meanings of the quote would become more clear and true.
Therefore knowing the reference meaning of particular word is very impotant before any conlusion is given on any claims to be true or false in SGGS ji.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Randip Singh (Oct 4, 2011)

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a scientific journal. It uses metaphors and symbolism to illustrate points.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 4, 2011)

> “From this primal void, came the moon, the sun and the earth.”
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1037
> 
> This is wrong.




There was nothing, then something happened (Big Bang) and today we see lots of things including the Sun, Moon and Earth. It does not require a lot of imagination to interpret in this way



> We know that the Earth, Moon, and the Sun need particular elements to form them – they is not pop in to existence, nor were they instantaneously created.



Irrelevant including all the waffle afterwards about Big Bang nucleosynthesis as I would not interpret the above in this way





> “From this primal void, came the four sources of creation, and the power of speech.”
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1037
> 
> Language has emerged out of the social nature of primates that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years – it was not created.



Ok




> Guru Granth Sahib states:
> “You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word! Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.”






> This is wrong for the same reasons as stated earlier about Big Bang nucleosynthesis.



More waffle and a complete waste of time. Why even attempt to reconcile religion and science? Science may recognise Word as a Word and not a reference to a creative power. And when the World was in place, rivers did flow as they do today




> Guru Granth Sahib states:
> “The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits.”
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p5
> 
> ...



This measure is from the point of singularity that is called the Big Bang. It does not account for what may have existed prior to that point

In terms of Onkar, there are no scientific metrics 




> Guru Granth Sahib states:
> “Creating the sun and the moon, He infused His Light into them. He created the night and the day; Wondrous are His miraculous plays.”
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1279
> 
> ...


. 


Yes but I wonder how much is lost in translation

As  a whole I found the essay pointless and the pompous analysis amusing

Thanks


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## Seeker9 (Oct 4, 2011)

Re my lost in translation point I have just noticed this fine thread:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/37124-guru-granth-sahib-converted.html


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 5, 2011)

spnadmin ji this thread Title is in violation of the spn TOS.  When you click on the link the title is totally different.

Couple other things to note,


A kid/young man is trying to look for sensationalism for his belief as stated in the article, http://www.bayanimills.com/the-author/) and he seemed to be looking for straws and some mis-interpreted story about Nasa was manouvered (Bayani Mills was the challenger to the possibly mis-guided Sikh)
The other stuff is he said/she said with plug for United Punjab website and Giani Sohan Singh Seetal, I don't know much about him personally
The revised article at the quoted URL and it already debunks in the same blog that "literals" are wrong (a view restated by Bayani Mills later in this thread, thanks to Bayani Mills) to be used for Sri Guru Granth Sahib.,




> *Divine Insight: Does NASA consult the Guru Granth Sahib?*
> 
> _                                     On October 1, 2011,                                      in Other,                                      by Bayani Mills                                                                         _
> 
> ...


Note also in reference to the stupidity of escalating hearsay,



> if nasa has guru granth saheb and no other religious book,then it is  important but if they have all other religious books along with guru  granth saheb then it may be their policy.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 5, 2011)

HIS LIGHT....is interpreted as "Moon-light" ???  Guru Ji says that the Creator infused "His Light" into his creation..and the writer jumped to claim that the moon reflects sun-light and so Guru ji is wrong ????

Well He also infused "His Light' in ME....but I DONT give out any "light"...reflected or otherwise...(BUT will do so when my dead body is cremated !!)..so is the Guru wrong again about His Light in US...??? I wonder...

"RIVERS"....again the writer only seems to know about earthly "rivers" of water...Scientists are talking about "rivers" of matter..rivers of planets and suns flowing in the galaxies...the MILKY WAY....( is that Cow's milk or Buffalo milk ?? dried powdered milk ?? )

Normally i just IGNORE such drivel...thats why i waited until a few SPNers have written some very well written psots..to add this small post...sheer nonsense...with no substance.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 5, 2011)

We are required to prepare ourselvs to face the challenges of the new era of technology.We should acquire a more clear and logical understanding of the messges of SGGS .
There is no doubt about this that the knowledge within SGGS is superb  ,complete and capable of providing appropriate answer to all possible questions in reation to Creator and Creation of the universe.
Every one should appreciate a fact that this is the only scripture in the world revered as GURU.Some people would always remain in confusion how it is so.?
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 5, 2011)

Prakash S. Bagga ji think again please or answer my question below with specifics,


> There is no doubt about this that the knowledge within Sri Guru Granth  Sahib Ji is superb  ,complete and capable of providing appropriate  answer to all possible questions in reation to Creator and Creation of  the universe.
> 
> _Please forecast the first snowfall in Toronto Canada for this winter and the amount of snow during this event.  I need to know so that I can put snow/winter tires on my car._
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Bayani (Oct 5, 2011)

Hello everyone!

Given I'm the author of the post, I feel I need to clarify some assumptions made by some of the commentators flaming me.

These are NOT my beliefs about the SGGS; it was a Sikh who strongly asserted that NASA consults the SGGS to answer questions about the Universe. The post seeks to demonstrate that the claim about NASA and the SGGS is wrong.

The post looks at how the myth began - by who, how it was spread, and that even if it were true, any serious consultation of the SGGS in a literal manner would result in information that is contrary to what is observed about the Universe.

The translations are NOT my own; they are copy and pasted from the Sikh websites that are cited in the post. So, to reiterate - the interpretation of the SGGS is NOT mine.

As a result, and as was noted earlier, I have updated the initial post due to the criticisms from this forum to clarify my position. Overall, it seems you are all in agreement. The SGGS is not to be taken literally.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 5, 2011)

Bayani ji thanks for the clarification.  I went to your blog and saw your writing to be on the correct side versus how the thread was started by whomever.  You clearly state and may be interested in also participating here if you wish as there are other sections as we can use all the young blood, new ideas and challenging ideas to keep straight and assessing our thinking.

Literals and lines are the traps for fools young and old and specially when one is looking at musical and poetic compositions which our Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is.

Take care.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 5, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I have an humble suggestion for you .You should not get disturbed if you actually feel  connected with SGGS .We should understand how to respect the views instead  loosing our temper just for nothing.Let us behave like a Sikh.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> I have an humble suggestion for you .You should not get disturbed if you actually feel  connected with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .We should understand how to respect the views instead  loosing our temper just for nothing.Let us behave like a Sikh.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


Prakash S. Bagga ji I am very interested in specific answer to my question.  It could be revolutionary.

I am not disturbed but aghast to see such posts from a learned man of your caliber.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 5, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,Since your specfic question does not fall in the purview of Gurbani so it can not be answered However .From Gurbani we can know that Sikhs should not be concerened with the mathematics of forecastings as any such exercise will always result in confusion.So why to be in confusion  ? Nothing beyond this.
Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

Dear Ambarsaria Ji

I can understand where you are coming from. However, my take on what Prakash Ji said was that SGGS will contain all the answers to your 
spiritual questions

If I thought it had the answer to everything regardless, then I would be quick to ascertain the next set of winning lottery numbers so I can finally give up work and devote more time to worthy spiritual pursuits!!


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## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

Dear Bayani Ji

Thanks for taking this opportunity to stand up for yourself and clarify your position

With regard to what you regard as "literal" meaning, I would offer the following:

There is a good wiki article on literal meaning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language
and the first paragraph states:

"Literal and figurative language is a distinction in traditional systems for analyzing language. Literal language refers to words that do not deviate from their defined meaning. Figurative language refers to words, and groups of words, that exaggerate or alter the usual meanings of the component words. This distinction is important as misunderstanding these terms will literally make your head explode. Figurative language may involve analogy to similar concepts or other contexts, and may involve exaggerations. These alterations result in figures of speech."

The language of SGGS is very much in the figurative category so attempting to put a rigid literal construct on it is not helpful

When you have figurative language then you have to interpret, understand and derive meaning. This can be challenging at the best of times but even more so when it is translated into another language...I'm sure we all understand the concept of "lost in translation"

So you may pick up on the literal meaning of "Word" and "Light" whereas the figurative meanings, i.e referring to a Creative power, are completely different

So in that sense, it is entirely feasible to accept what is written as Truth - In the beginning there was nothing and then something happened now we can see stuff around us etc

Another example...I could say "I made a cheese Sandwich for Lunch"

Let's look at that literally shall we?

On one level, yes I did butter the bread and grate the cheese and so assemble the sandwich. So I am true

On another level however, well I didn't make the bread did I? I didn't make the cheese did I? So really, how can I say then that I made a cheese sandwich? So, I am false

This is a simple illustration of what happens when you try to put a literal/scientific construct on everything. Something about square pegs and round holes comes to mind...

Ultimately, it is the age old debate about Science VS Religion. The former boasts validity via empirical evidence whereas the latter is a question of faith. And any attempt to reconcile the two is a complete waste of time!

But thanks again for stimulating discussion


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 5, 2011)

Can we deny that there are no answers in SGGS regarding the creation of the Universe.
I think that for most of us the answer would be "No".
Any one can try to know this .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 5, 2011)

A shallow reading of Gurbani would make anyone see things the way they wish to see.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 5, 2011)

Seeker9 ji some comments,





Seeker9 said:


> Dear Ambarsaria Ji
> 
> I can understand where you are coming from. However, my take on what Prakash Ji said was that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji _will contain all the answers to your spiritual questions_
> _Seeker9 ji the answer to your assertion and clarification is unfortunately also no._ mundahug
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

> Seeker9 ji the answer to your assertion and clarification is unfortunately also no.



Okay although to be entirely honest, I am not in a position that I have sufficient knowledge of the entire Scripture to comment on where it is lacking

As I continue to learn more I will see if that changes

I suppose it could be said then that it will equip you with the tools and techniques to answer questions (note I am avoiding the use of "all") if not directly from the Scripture itself then from within when you meditate and reflect inwards?


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 5, 2011)

Seeker9 said:


> Okay although to be entirely honest, I am not in a position that I have sufficient knowledge of the entire Scripture to comment on where it is lacking
> 
> As I continue to learn more I will see if that changes
> 
> I suppose it could be said then that it will equip you with the tools and techniques to answer questions (note I am avoiding the use of "all") if not directly from the Scripture itself then from within when you meditate and reflect inwards?


seeker9 ji you are a smart man.  The lunacy of this thread is so self evident as we see the title,



> *Claims in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib are false*
> 
> 
> *Fact:*  Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does not claim nor do our Guru jis.  It presents without requesting belief in any that is stated there.  It teaches you and allows you to develop understanding so that you may determine.


Claiming goes like this as an example of a person(s) in another religion I know of,


Scriptures talk about elephants circling the earth, so they knew the science of satellites or geo-stationary orbiting
Another one, our book determined the speed of light in year 700 AD
Scriptures tell about travel from one place to another through the air, so they knew Aeronautics
Such are claims and sometime over zealot Sikhs want to compete and start flagging or acting the same
Does not make it right for anyone

Sat Sri Akal.


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## xlnc (Aug 8, 2012)

*“From this primal void, came the moon, the sun and the earth.”*

''This is wrong - We know that the Earth, Moon, and the Sun need particular elements to form them – they is not pop in to existence, nor were they instantaneously''

_What is the primal void? How would you define it? Lets consult a basic dictionary for this. Primal  ''Relating to an early stage in evolutionary development''
''Void'' - A completely empty space. So, primal void = ''An empty space in early stage of development''. 
This sentence doesn't take into consideration the time frame in which the moon, the sun, and earth were created
There is no such mention that the three were ''instantly created'' as you suggested. 
In merely states they were created in what was an empty space._

*From this primal void, came the four sources of creation, and the power of speech.”*

''Language has emerged out of the social nature of primates that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years – it was not create''_

What are the four sources of creation? You'd be stumped. Let me tell you, Andaj (egg born), Jeraj (womb/placenta), setaj (sweat born), Outbhuj (earth born)
NO mention is made that the language is ''created'' as you have suggested. ''The four sources of creation'' are indepedant from the ''power of speech'' mentioned here (theres a comma presenting them as two separate entities in one sentence) This sentence just tells that speech bettered (''power of'') from once again, what was an empty space. _

*You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word! Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.”*

''Water requires hydrogen and oxygen, not available at the beginning of the universe. Oxygen had to be created through the formation of stars. There is no way “rivers” started to flow'' 
_
What you're doing is muddling science with what is a core belief. You know, giving how powerful and almightly the lord is, it can be  said that ''one word'' was suffice to offset the ''hydrogen and oxygen'' interplay you're taking about to cause the rivers to flow. Sadly, neither of us can really comment on that except the lord himself. 
_ 
*
“The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits.”*

''We CAN perceive these expanding limits, in fact we have, and we know that The Universe is 13.7 billion years old with an increasing rate of accuracy''

The following is taken from sri GURU Granth sahib ji:

''kavan so vaylaa vakhat kavan kavan thit kavan vaar.
What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

kavan se rutee maahu kavan jit ho-aa aakaar.
What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

vayl na paa-ee-aa pandtee je hovai laykh puraan.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

vakhat na paa-i-o kaadee-aa je likhan laykh kuraan.
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

thit vaar naa jogee jaanai rut maahu naa ko-ee.
The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

jaa kartaa sirthee ka-o saajay aapay jaanai so-ee.
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.''

_No one really knows when the world was created except the one created it. No dating provides definate evidence as to when the world was created and how old it really is. You haven't been living 13.7 billions years to formiddably support that claim. You cannot ascertain the limits with accuracy. Period_
*

“Creating the sun and the moon, He infused His Light into them. He created the night and the day; Wondrous are His miraculous plays.”*

''The moon does not emit light, it reflects the light from the sun. We can even demonstrate how it happens''_

Once again, no mention is made here that the moon emits light. You're just deluded. Learn to read_. 

Conclusion: You're just a pipsqueak who likes to take potshots at things you don't have a clue about.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 8, 2012)

I think claims that Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a science manual is false as well. We have plenty of nutcases amongst the Sikh community who make wild claims about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

I had some lunatic come to my house who said I should not put the four volumes of the Granth Sahib (mine is the Pritam Singh CHahil translated version) together as they will start to give off some sort of power which will be fatal. lol

Now the author above is just refuting such loony's, not the Granth itself.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 8, 2012)

_In  SGGS ji one can get the feel that Gurbanee is basically Science of THE WORD_
_GuROO and Mathematics of GuR JOTi presented in terms words as GuRu-GuR._

_It should be interseting to know that what scientists today claim to have found a GOD PARTICLE which is an indivisible element SOURCE and CAUSE of creation of every thing of the universe.The same concept already exists in Gurbanee._
_Can anyone imagine how an  entuty is being refered in SGGS ji as THE SINGLE WORD _
_GuROO itsef.? In fact in SGGS ji the reference of the word GuROO is for an indivisble _
_Element only.This is given as SABADu GuROO._
_Thus there is conspicuous  similarity between GOD PARTICLE and the concept of SABADu GuROO_
_The concept ofGuR JOTi is creation from this WORd GuROO  as GuRu-GuR.This GuRu -GuR is a compositeEntity as EKANKAAR-OANKAAR (GuR) as CREATOR of the Universe._

Therefore one should try to comprehend the Scientific and Mathematical charateristics of this WORD GuROO then one may have very different views about How SGGS ji is THE GREATEST SCIENTIST OFTHE UNIVERSE THE only SOURCE AND CAUSE for the
creation of the universe.

I am sure many would not agree to what is being presented here.Since this is an era where there exists the best opportunity to understand the messages of SGGS ji
in a different way which may have been overlooked so far.

These views are based on my understanding from the observation of some visible 
concepts.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Searching (Aug 8, 2012)

> “From this primal void, came the moon, the sun and the earth.”



If on reads the whole shabad you will come across many such verses. It is simply stating that God created the universe and  stars and moons planets were formed in what use to be primal void. Even if taken literally it is not wrong.




> “The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits.”
> This is wrong.
> 
> We CAN perceive these expanding limits, in fact we have, and we know that The Universe is 13.7 billion years old with an increasing rate of accuracy.



Seriously? Because you know the universe is 13.7 billion years old you know the limit of universe? 
What is the area of universe please? How many planets, suns, moons, comets, asteroids are there? Please tell me the limits of the universe?




> “Creating the sun and the moon, He infused His Light into them. He created the night and the day; Wondrous are His miraculous plays.”



This is the tricky one. Well Sikhs believe that every thing in the universe has one light or God's light in it. It is the source of everything that there is. So this quote can be taken in that sense that sun and moon have that light in them.

You see how one can use his imagination to approve or disprove various verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
As mentioned before in this thread you should have read the whole shabad and the verses in context, it would have more sense.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 8, 2012)

If one can grasp the WAVE CONCEPT OF DIVINE WORDS in Gurbanee then I think one can have  ,better,and different understanding about the CREATOR and CTREATIONS 
of the universe.
From Gurbanee one can learn that ultimately The Universe and its creations are 
some INVISIBLE, SUPER ACTIVE WAVES only.

Thus every thing of the Univese is nothing but A WAVE Only.

Gurbanee messages are ETERNAL and CENT PERSCENT TRUE  but every one may not be able to understand this without the grace of SATiGuRu.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Astroboy (Aug 8, 2012)

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written in poetry form
has used expressions in various ways
starting with the phrase: FROM THIS PRIMAL VOID....
For example,

ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਸੁੰਨੈ ਤੇ ਸਾਜੇ ॥
पउणु पाणी सुंनै ते साजे ॥
Pa▫uṇ pāṇī sunnai ṯe sāje.
*From this Primal Void*, He fashioned air and water.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 12

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
सुंनहु ब्रहमा बिसनु महेसु उपाए ॥
Sunnahu barahmā bisan mahes upā▫e.
*From this Primal Void*, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 14

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਸਪਤ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਥਾਪੇ ॥
सुंनहु सपत सरोवर थापे ॥
Sunnahu sapaṯ sarovar thāpe.
*From this Primal Void*, the seven seas were established.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 15

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਗੈਣਾਰੇ ॥
सुंनहु चंदु सूरजु गैणारे ॥
Sunnahu cẖanḏ sūraj gaiṇāre.
*From this Primal Void*, came the moon, the sun and the earth.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 16

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
सुंनहु धरति अकासु उपाए ॥
Sunnahu ḏẖaraṯ akās upā▫e.
*From this Primal Void*, the earth and the Akaashic Ethers were created.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 17

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਖਾਣੀ ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
सुंनहु खाणी सुंनहु बाणी ॥
Sunnahu kẖāṇī sunnahu baṇī.
*From this Primal Void*, came the four sources of creation, and the power of speech.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 19

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਦੁਇ ਕੀਏ ॥
सुंनहु राति दिनसु दुइ कीए ॥
Sunnahu rāṯ ḏinas ḏu▫e kī▫e.
*From this Primal Void*, He made both night and day;
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

*Further references about Primal Void are in the following shabads:*

ਖੰਡੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡੀ ਪਾਤਾਲੀ ਪੁਰੀਈ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੦॥
खंडी ब्रहमंडी पाताली पुरीई त्रिभवण ताड़ी लाई हे ॥१०॥
Kẖandī barahmandī pāṯālī purī▫ī ṯaribẖavaṇ ṯāṛī lā▫ī he. ||10||
In the galaxies and solar systems, nether regions, celestial realms and the three worlds, the Lord is *in the primal void* of deep absorption. ||10||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1023, Line 10

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੬॥੩॥
नानक नामि रते बैरागी निज घरि ताड़ी लाई हे ॥१६॥३॥
Nānak nām raṯe bairāgī nij gẖar ṯāṛī lā▫ī he. ||16||3||
O Nanak, imbued with the Naam, I am detached; in the home of my own self deep within, I am absorbed *in the primal void* of deep meditation. ||16||3||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1023, Line 12

ਸਾਚੇ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਸਾਚੇ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧॥
साचे जोग जुगति वीचारी साचे ताड़ी लाई हे ॥१॥
Sācẖe jog jugaṯ vīcẖārī sācẖe ṯāṛī lā▫ī he. ||1||
I contemplate the Way of Yoga, the Way of Union with the True Lord. I am truly absorbed *in the primal void* of deep meditation. ||1||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1023, Line 13

ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ॥
ताड़ी लाई सिरजणहारै ॥
Ŧāṛī lā▫ī sirjaṇhārai.
the Creator Lord was absorbed *in the primal void*.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1026, Line 14

ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰੈ ॥
ताड़ी लाई अपर अपारै ॥
Ŧāṛī lā▫ī apar apārai.
the infinite, endless Lord was absorbed *in the primal void*.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 10

ਸੁੰਨ ਕਲਾ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
सुंन कला अपर्मपरि धारी ॥
Sunn kalā aprampar ḏẖārī.
*In the Primal Void*, the Infinite Lord assumed His Power.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1037, Line 12

ਅਗਨਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੁੰਨੇ ਕਲਾ ਰਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥
अगनि पाणी जीउ जोति तुमारी सुंने कला रहाइदा ॥२॥
Agan pāṇī jī▫o joṯ ṯumārī sunne kalā rahā▫iḏā. ||2||
Your Light pervades fire, water and souls; Your Power rests *in the Primal Void*. ||2||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1141, Line 8

ਚੀਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਤਾਂ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
चीति आवै तां सुंनि समाइआ ॥
Cẖīṯ āvai ṯāŉ sunn samā▫i▫ā.
When He comes to mind, I am absorbed *in the Primal Void* of God.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Luckysingh (Aug 8, 2012)

The Primal Void is actually the space containing everything.
Similar to how the ''nothingness' is in fact ''everything''

Only to us, can this be described as a void, because infact it is NOT an empty Void, this is what we see or don't see!!!

Wherever there is a void, it is indeed NOT that, that is just what we think we see or don't see !!


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## Astroboy (Aug 10, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> The Primal Void is actually the space containing everything.


Here's a video I'd like to share that will explain further.
This simulations follows the formation of a galaxy like our own. It  assumes a Cold Dark Matter Universe. The movie shows the distribution of  gas ...
The Formation of  a Milky Way like Galaxy      - YouTube


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 11, 2012)

Matter...anti-Matter..Void..?? imho there more "Void" than matter in the Universe..are those vast "empty" spaces between stars, galaxies really empty ?? in empty as we know empty ??
Is  black hole Empty ?? Primal Void..is a English Word...translated word...Sunn is the Original...There was even a Black Hole of calcutta and it wasnt empty !! Lots of assumptions..and Lots of "primal Void" ADDED even wheres NONE mentioned in the Original. Guru nanak Ji didnt have the U-Tube and Modern Camera/photoshop/Nasa super computers to churn out VIDEOS like we can...Guru Ji only had WORDS.....to create the PICTURE in our MINDS that HE wanted us to SEE....and just as each person sees the Nasa Videos simulation videos on Utube differently...so does each reader of the words...there is NO UNIVERSAL EXACT SAME WORD PICTURE that everyone sees the same way...The One and ONLY BOTTOMLINE IS..as our Knowledge develops..grows..we UNDERSTAND GURBANI BETTER..we IMAGINE better..we "SEE" more and more what GURU NANAK ji saw and attempts to show us...a simple matter like explaining Quantum Physiscs to an aboriginal fresh out of the Amazon Jungle in sign language and gestures....is what GURU NANAK Ji faced...thats WHY Guru ji even DISCARDED all the known SCRIPTS,Vocabulary, language use, CONCEPTS etc ...simply because THOSE FAILED to address ADEQUATELY what He wanted to put across to US...but working BACKWARDS..with all the Computers and Nasa Pictures simulations etc we NOW have....we can RECONCILE the WORDS of Gurbani...and we see that they FIT PERFECTLY !!!...and we exclaim..HEY..what the computer simulations shows about Galaxies formations black holes is part of what Guru nanak ji was talking about 550 years ago....using ONLY WORDS and PAPER.


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## Ishna (Aug 11, 2012)

Waheguru!


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## pargat singh (Nov 24, 2015)

If you believe that if big bang was not done by god then who did the big bang and on which part the big bang was occured. Who created that thing which was splitted into planets and stars? ?????


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 24, 2015)

Guru Granth Sahib states: <cut single tuk per Terms of Service-Ishna>
SGGS p1037

Regarding the above... the OP is refuting it.  But it's scientifically proven.

First of all the primal void is not simply outer space.  Outer space contains *stuff* therefore it is NOT a void at all. The Primal Void is that which existed prior to creation.  Formless NIRGUN - from which space AND time manifested in SARGUN form.  Space, or spatiality, indicates form (x axis, y axis... 3 dimensional) therefore it is NOT the void being spoken of.

Out of the primal Void... ie: Nirgun (formlessness) in which everything is ONE - Akal Purakh, everything was manifested as Sargun reflection of the Nirgun formless Akal. 

Now to the science. ALL things are made of particles, made of atoms, which are 99.9999% empty space. And what's left are electrons and a nucleus of protons and neutrons. These all break down into quarks then gluons etc.  So essentially electrons and quarks (which are the smallest directly observable particles but may break down further). Through experiments they have shown that these basic subatomic particles, pop into and out of existence... seemingly randomly. They are non local.  They are never hard wired into existence.  Electrons can behave either as a wave (which itself is not a *thing* but instead energy travelling through something else) or a particle, depending on whether or not there is a conscious observer. The simple act of having an observer directed the outcome, and it was reproducable EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Why is this important?  The Sun, the moon, the earth, the stars are all made of the same *stuff*.  And they all reduce to the same basic subatomic particles. 

So it's truth. From the primal void (Nirgun formless state - as we seen with the electrons above) manifests Sargun, form which makes up the planets, the sun, the moon etc.


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## Ishna (Nov 25, 2015)

Harkiran Ji, per your understanding, does the Nirgun permeate the Sargun, or are they entirely separate?

Apologies if I haven't understood your post properly.


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## Ishna (Nov 25, 2015)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Nirgun (formlessness) in which everything is ONE -



Also, can you clarify when you say that everything was one in Nirgun, as a "thing" would be Sargun, wouldn't it? Genuinely curious, thank you.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 25, 2015)

Well, it's more a lack for vocabulary because every way we can try to explain something we must use terms which give us physical references... 

Think of Nirgun as formless (no space, no time, unchanging, everything is ONE) Not One as in a 'thing' but ONEness.  We are told in Gurbani that this is the nature of Akal Purakh... ONEness. No separation.  As soon as you have anything separate from this ONE, you have Sargun - Form.  

But ONEness does not mean it is nothing.  It's just formless... its like a computer game sitting on a disc. All of the information is there, all at once, unchanging.  (not the physical disc but the information... again I am trying to use reference points we can at least grasp the concept)  while Sargun is within the game world.  

And yes Gurbani says, Creation was born of the light, and the light is in the creation. 

If Nirgun Akal is the Light, and Nirgun = formless, ONEness, then consciousness can be used to explain it. At least as a reference point for us from this vantage point.  Our own consciousness can never be quantified as taking up 'space' It's the subjective internal experience it has not form... but yet, within our dreams we can create form.  Hence why I tried to use the comparison to a dream in the post about Maya. 

So, the conscious creative energy which is formless, and exists beyond Sargun / form, also pervades all of Creation.... consciousness is not merely an emergent property (as shown by the double slit experiment, a conscious observer is required for matter to even manifest at all - scary as that sounds) so if it were merely an emergent property, then what consciousness existed to observe our own bodies / brains into existence?? 

I  really only need a few lines of the following shabad but following rules... I am not sure where the shabad actually ends lol. So I just copied the whole page... and its too much to go through I usually take the second lines out but it is too much work to do with this much text. Anyway... this is why I don't like posintg this much material at once because I can't really refer to the part I wanted to...

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


ਗਉੜੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

गउड़ी बावन अखरी महला ५ ॥

Ga▫oṛī bāvan akẖrī mėhlā 5.

Gauree, Baavan Akhree ~ The 52 Letters, Fifth Mehl:


ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

सलोकु ॥

Salok.

Shalok:


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव माता गुरदेव पिता गुरदेव सुआमी परमेसुरा ॥

Gurḏev māṯā gurḏev piṯā gurḏev su▫āmī parmesurā.

The Divine Guru is my mother, the Divine Guru is my father; the Divine Guru is my Transcendent Lord and Master.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਖਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਬੰਧਿਪ ਸਹੋਦਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव सखा अगिआन भंजनु गुरदेव बंधिप सहोदरा ॥

Gurḏev sakẖā agi▫ān bẖanjan gurḏev banḏẖip sahoḏarā.

The Divine Guru is my companion, the Destroyer of ignorance; the Divine Guru is my relative and brother.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਨਿਰੋਧਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव दाता हरि नामु उपदेसै गुरदेव मंतु निरोधरा ॥

Gurḏev ḏāṯā har nām upḏesai gurḏev manṯ niroḏẖarā.

The Divine Guru is the Giver, the Teacher of the Lord's Name. The Divine Guru is the Mantra which never fails.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਾਰਸ ਪਰਸ ਪਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव सांति सति बुधि मूरति गुरदेव पारस परस परा ॥

Gurḏev sāŉṯ saṯ buḏẖ mūraṯ gurḏev pāras paras parā.

The Divine Guru is the Image of peace, truth and wisdom. The Divine Guru is the Philosopher's Stone - touching it, one is transformed.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੋਵਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਮਜਨੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव तीरथु अम्रित सरोवरु गुर गिआन मजनु अपर्मपरा ॥

Gurḏev ṯirath amriṯ sarovar gur gi▫ān majan apramparā.

The Divine Guru is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage, and the pool of divine ambrosia; bathing in the Guru's wisdom, one experiences the Infinite.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਪ ਹਰਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਵਿਤ ਕਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव करता सभि पाप हरता गुरदेव पतित पवित करा ॥

Gurḏev karṯā sabẖ pāp harṯā gurḏev paṯiṯ paviṯ karā.

The Divine Guru is the Creator, and the Destroyer of all sins; the Divine Guru is the Purifier of sinners.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਉਧਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव आदि जुगादि जुगु जुगु गुरदेव मंतु हरि जपि उधरा ॥

Gurḏev āḏ jugāḏ jug jug gurḏev manṯ har jap uḏẖrā.

The Divine Guru existed at the primal beginning, throughout the ages, in each and every age. The Divine Guru is the Mantra of the Lord's Name; chanting it, one is saved.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹਮ ਮੂੜ ਪਾਪੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰਾ ॥

गुरदेव संगति प्रभ मेलि करि किरपा हम मूड़ पापी जितु लगि तरा ॥

Gurḏev sangaṯ parabẖ mel kar kirpā ham mūṛ pāpī jiṯ lag ṯarā.

O God, please be merciful to me, that I may be with the Divine Guru; I am a foolish sinner, but holding onto Him, I am carried across.


ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਰਾ ॥੧॥

गुरदेव सतिगुरु पारब्रहमु परमेसरु गुरदेव नानक हरि नमसकरा ॥१॥

Gurḏev saṯgur pārbarahm parmesar gurḏev Nānak har namaskarā. ||1||

The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru. ||1||


ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

सलोकु ॥

Salok.

Shalok:


ਆਪਹਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਆਪਹਿ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥

आपहि कीआ कराइआ आपहि करनै जोगु ॥

Āpėh kī▫ā karā▫i▫ā āpėh karnai jog.

He Himself acts, and causes others to act; He Himself can do everything.


ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਸਰ ਹੋਆ ਨ ਹੋਗੁ ॥੧॥

नानक एको रवि रहिआ दूसर होआ न होगु ॥१॥

Nānak eko rav rahi▫ā ḏūsar ho▫ā na hog. ||1||

O Nanak, the One Lord is pervading everywhere; there has never been any other, and there never shall be. ||1||


ਪਉੜੀ ॥

पउड़ी ॥

Pa▫oṛī.

Pauree:


ਓਅੰ ਸਾਧ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ ॥

ओअं साध सतिगुर नमसकारं ॥

O▫aŉ sāḏẖ saṯgur namaskāraŉ.

ONG: I humbly bow in reverence to the One Universal Creator, to the Holy True Guru.


ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੰ ॥

आदि मधि अंति निरंकारं ॥

Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ niraŉkāraŉ.

In the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, He is the Formless Lord.


ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਖ ਆਸਨ ॥

आपहि सुंन आपहि सुख आसन ॥

Āpėh sunn āpėh sukẖ āsan.

He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of peace.


ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਸਨ ॥

आपहि सुनत आप ही जासन ॥

Āpėh sunaṯ āp hī jāsan.

He Himself listens to His Own Praises.


ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥

आपन आपु आपहि उपाइओ ॥

Āpan āp āpėh upā▫i▫o.

He Himself created Himself.


ਆਪਹਿ ਬਾਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਓ ॥

आपहि बाप आप ही माइओ ॥

Āpėh bāp āp hī mā▫i▫o.

He is His Own Father, He is His Own Mother.


ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥

आपहि सूखम आपहि असथूला ॥

Āpėh sūkẖam āpėh asthūlā.

He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious.


ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਲਾ ॥੧॥

लखी न जाई नानक लीला ॥१॥

Lakẖī na jā▫ī Nānak līlā. ||1||

O Nanak, His wondrous play cannot be understood. ||1||


ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥

करि किरपा प्रभ दीन दइआला ॥

Kar kirpā parabẖ ḏīn ḏa▫i▫ālā.

O God, Merciful to the meek, please be kind to me,


ਤੇਰੇ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਰਵਾਲਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

तेरे संतन की मनु होइ रवाला ॥ रहाउ ॥

Ŧere sanṯan kī man ho▫e ravālā. Rahā▫o.

that my mind might become the dust of the feet of Your Saints. ||Pause||


ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

सलोकु ॥

Salok.

Shalok:


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥

निरंकार आकार आपि निरगुन सरगुन एक ॥

Nirankār ākār āp nirgun sargun ek.

He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.


ਏਕਹਿ ਏਕ ਬਖਾਨਨੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥

एकहि एक बखाननो नानक एक अनेक ॥१॥

Ėkėh ek bakẖānano Nānak ek anek. ||1||

Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1||


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 25, 2015)

I ran out of characters! It only allows 3000 max!




ਪਉੜੀ ॥

पउड़ी ॥

Pa▫oṛī.

Pauree:



ਓਅੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਓ ਅਕਾਰਾ ॥

ओअं गुरमुखि कीओ अकारा ॥

O▫aŉ gurmukẖ kī▫o akārā.

ONG: The One Universal Creator created the Creation through the Word of the Primal Guru.



ਏਕਹਿ ਸੂਤਿ ਪਰੋਵਨਹਾਰਾ ॥

एकहि सूति परोवनहारा ॥

Ėkėh sūṯ parovanhārā.

He strung it upon His one thread.



ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੰ ॥

भिंन भिंन त्रै गुण बिसथारं ॥

Bẖinn bẖinn ṯarai guṇ bisthāraŉ.

He created the diverse expanse of the three qualities.



ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ ॥

निरगुन ते सरगुन द्रिसटारं ॥

Nirgun ṯe sargun ḏaristāraŉ.

From formless, He appeared as form.



ਸਗਲ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥

सगल भाति करि करहि उपाइओ ॥

Sagal bẖāṯ kar karahi upā▫i▫o.

The Creator has created the creation of all sorts.



ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਮਨ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਢਾਇਓ ॥

जनम मरन मन मोहु बढाइओ ॥

Janam maran man moh badẖā▫i▫o.

The attachment of the mind has led to birth and death.



ਦੁਹੂ ਭਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ ॥

दुहू भाति ते आपि निरारा ॥

Ḏuhū bẖāṯ ṯe āp nirārā.

He Himself is above both, untouched and unaffected.



ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਾ ॥੨॥

नानक अंतु न पारावारा ॥२॥

Nānak anṯ na pārāvārā. ||2||

O Nanak, He has no end or limitation. ||2||



ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

सलोकु ॥

Salok.

Shalok:



ਸੇਈ ਸਾਹ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਸੇ ਸਚੁ ਸੰਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਸਿ ॥

सेई साह भगवंत से सचु स्मपै हरि रासि ॥

Se▫ī sāh bẖagvanṯ se sacẖ sampai har rās.

Those who gather Truth, and the riches of the Lord's Name, are rich and very fortunate.



ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਚਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਿਹ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੧॥

नानक सचु सुचि पाईऐ तिह संतन कै पासि ॥१॥

Nānak sacẖ sucẖ pā▫ī▫ai ṯih sanṯan kai pās. ||1||

O Nanak, truthfulness and purity are obtained from Saints such as these. ||1||



ਪਵੜੀ ॥

पवड़ी ॥

Pavṛī.

Pauree:



ਸਸਾ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਸੋਊ ॥

ससा सति सति सति सोऊ ॥

Sasā saṯ saṯ saṯ so▫ū.

SASSA: True, True, True is that Lord.



ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥

सति पुरख ते भिंन न कोऊ ॥

Saṯ purakẖ ṯe bẖinn na ko▫ū.

No one is separate from the True Primal Lord.



ਸੋਊ ਸਰਨਿ ਪਰੈ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਯੰ ॥

सोऊ सरनि परै जिह पायं ॥

So▫ū saran parai jih pā▫yaŉ.

They alone enter the Lord's Sanctuary, whom the Lord inspires to enter.



ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ਸੁਨਾਯੰ ॥

सिमरि सिमरि गुन गाइ सुनायं ॥

Simar simar gun gā▫e sunā▫yaŉ.

Meditating, meditating in remembrance, they sing and preach the Glorious Praises of the Lord.



ਸੰਸੈ ਭਰਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥

संसै भरमु नही कछु बिआपत ॥

Sansai bẖaram nahī kacẖẖ bi▫āpaṯ.

Doubt and skepticism do not affect them at all.



ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਤਾਹੂ ਕੋ ਜਾਪਤ ॥

प्रगट प्रतापु ताहू को जापत ॥

Pargat parṯāp ṯāhū ko jāpaṯ.

They behold the manifest glory of the Lord.



ਸੋ ਸਾਧੂ ਇਹ ਪਹੁਚਨਹਾਰਾ ॥

सो साधू इह पहुचनहारा ॥

So sāḏẖū ih pahucẖanhārā.

They are the Holy Saints - they reach this destination.



ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਾ ॥੩॥

नानक ता कै सद बलिहारा ॥३॥

Nānak ṯā kai saḏ balihārā. ||3||

Nanak is forever a sacrifice to them. ||3||


If there is more to the shabad on the next page let me know and Ill post more... I'm not really sure how to tell where it ends...


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## Ishna (Nov 25, 2015)

At a minimum the full verse/stanza can be quoted. Preferably the whole shabad, but this one is very long. You can tell where a shabad and a verse start and end by looking at the numbering system.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 25, 2015)

Is it where the next 1 starts again?  Because there are several in the above... but it seems like still the same subject. I just kind of looked where the subject changed.  I don't really know the numbering system.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 26, 2015)

I think it is better to open the Ang or Shabad on srigranth.org and paste link here.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 26, 2015)

Its a rule to post the full shabad on here...  but I agree it makes it difficult to contiue the discussion...

Anyway back to the question from Ishna Ji, Nargun / Sargun are not separate *things* they are in fact both Creator.  Akal Purakh is Nirgun - Formless state where everything is One.  And Sargun Form is expression of that ONE - Gurbani likens it to a dream which is why I compared it to one as well... not that it's literally a dream but that it gives us a reference so we can at least comprehend the point... As a dream is inward consciously created reality, where in a very real sense we create form (our dream) from formless (our own consciousness) and the dream is every bit as real as this world when we are immersed within it. There is space in the dream, three dimensions, a time line, things feel tangible to us while in the dream. And the dream is not something separate from our consciousness.  The dream is as much us, as the waking consciousness is.  They are not two *separate* things, but instead they are just different aspects of the same ONE thing.
And our consciousness pervades every aspect of the dream. You could say our own dream is the sargun form of our nirgun formless consciousness... and it gives a kind of understanding to us in human terms though not saying reality is literally a dream.


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## Ishna (Nov 27, 2015)

Sadly for me the dream analogy does not compute. That is my failing. I can't get away from the idea that a dream is still entirely false, yet this is all literally real.

Would you say 'imagination' is the same as 'dream', in your analogy?

Happily, Gurbani provides other analogies as well, like bubble/wave in ocean, which is more the language of my small mind.

It is mind-boggling and awe-inspiring that our "God" is at the same time the Nothing and the Something. Nothing else can exist that isn't of It; there is no other place because this is all within It. What a perfect basis for a complete ethical system encompassing human, animal, environmental and even alien and other-worldly or even other-dimensional life or creation. Even if we were sucked into a trans-dimensional portal like the old TV show "Sliders" and existed in the same 'time and space' as our other-dimensional counterparts, we would *still* be within Akaal Purakh. We *are* Akaal Purakh, like you say. There is no-one else. Wow!

Our distinctiveness shouldn't come between the essence of our relationship though, bhainji. We are both still Sikh and both still essentially have full faith in Ik Onkar - One Universal Creative Force.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 27, 2015)

Ishna Ji, have you read the article posted in articles section about illusion and matter?  It might help you understand why I use the dream analogy better.  Basically it comes down to the only thing being 'real' IS thought!! All this is NOT real. At least in a physical sense. Matter is just energy vibrating slowly...

Quoted from that article "One minute we are holding a physical object in our hand, like a coin, and then the next minute we realize that if we were to focus in on the coins material substance with an atomic microscope, we would see that we are actually holding nothing."

Thought is the only real thing.  If this is so... as quantum physics suggests (because even our brains are made up of 'nothing' when you focus in on the brain's matter with the same atomic microscope) then thought can be the only real thing.  Observance by a consciousness is what allows this reality to exist.  Same as in a dream.  So yes thought / dreams are the same thing.  Well, dreams are created BY thought.  Once you understand that matter really is not physical at all, then is it much of a stretch to think this world too is a dream of sorts?? Or one big thought?? 

Remember these theories are coming from scientists... physicists... majority of whom are not even Sikh.  What do we do when scientists are the ones telling us that the physicality of matter is an illusion, that reality 'disappears' when you zoom in to the sub atomic level and all that's left are vortices of energy which are invisible and essentially when you zoom in on anything that you think is real in this world, you will see it is in fact, nothingness.  The metaphor of the dream fits, because it's as if the dreamer awakens inside the dream, when he/she realizes that the dream elements are not true.  The dream IS true in the sense that it IS a creation... inside YOU.  But it's not physical.  We are starting through since to see this world is also not physical!

So why do you think something needs to be physical to be considered real anyway??


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## Ishna (Nov 27, 2015)

Scientifically, I understand what you're saying about the essential 'nothingness' of matter.  What I struggle with is how that relates to our human experience and Sikhi.  Regardless of the science behind everything, we find ourselves right here, right now, experiencing this condition of physicality.  We are limited in our understanding and knowledge by our human senses.

For example, when you talk about hearing the anhat shabad with your ears in silence, you may only be hearing one section of that sound, because our ears can only hear one range of sound.  And if you want to get philosophical about it, you could argue that our perception of sound is as unique to each of us as our perception of colour and taste could be - there is no way to know whether what you see as 'red' is the same as what I see as 'red'.

On the plane last night, I was looking out the window.  Having just read the other article you posted quoting Niels Bohr, I found myself pondering the infinite reductability of things.  Then, from being so high up in the plane, I wondered if we'd reach the same conclusion by looking into the core of things, as we would if we looked at the totality of things.  Perhaps this is all contained in a marble being played with by giants.



> So why do you think something needs to be physical to be considered real anyway??



You would need to define 'real' for me to answer this question. I could flip it back to you and ask why it needs to be non-physical to be considered "real"?  Just because the Creator manipulates energy into matter, who are we to say that It's Creation is unreal?  It's just ephemeral, that's all.


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## Brother Onam (Nov 28, 2015)

ਕੀਤਾ  ਪਸਾਉ  ਏਕੋ  ਕਵਾਉ  ॥
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!

ਤਿਸ  ਤੇ  ਹੋਏ  ਲਖ  ਦਰੀਆਉ  ॥
Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.

I think it's funny the writer drew on this passage; I think it is one of the key teachings of Guru Granth Sahib. If we contemplate what all is contained in the concept of 'Word', there really is no controversy. 
Science has long ago begun acknowledging that our universe is not indeed 'matter' but rather vibrations in various visible and invisible frequencies. 'Word' is creative vibration. There's no reason this must be at odds with science.
I think it's a bit haughty and silly to cite the current stance of scientific theory as 'the truth', as the writer does, as if we've finally got this whole thing figured out. 
As the Guru says, 

*ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥
Pāṯālā pāṯāl lakẖ āgāsā āgās.
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.*

ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥
ओड़क ओड़क भालि थके वेद कहनि इक वात ॥
Oṛak oṛak bẖāl thake veḏ kahan ik vāṯ.
The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary.

ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥
सहस अठारह कहनि कतेबा असुलू इकु धातु ॥
Sahas aṯẖārah kahan kaṯebā asulū ik ḏẖāṯ.
The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe.

ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥
लेखा होइ त लिखीऐ लेखै होइ विणासु ॥
Lekẖā ho▫e ṯa likī▫ai lekẖai ho▫e viṇās.
If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੨੨॥
नानक वडा आखीऐ आपे जाणै आपु ॥२२॥
Nānak vadā ākẖī▫ai āpe jāṇai āp. ||22||
O Nanak, call Him Great! He Himself knows Himself. ||22||

Panna 5

*Please please please post full shabads or full paurhis/stanzas as I have done above. -Ishna*


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 28, 2015)

Ishna said:


> You would need to define 'real' for me to answer this question. I could flip it back to you and ask why it needs to be non-physical to be considered "real"?  Just because the Creator manipulates energy into matter, who are we to say that It's Creation is unreal?  It's just ephemeral, that's all.



For me, it doesn't... I consider BOTH physical and non-physical to be the same thing!  Physical is just the non-physical in a slowed state of vibration!  Just like I consider my dreams to be real as well!  Try telling me while I am in the dream world that it isn't real!! While in there, I am operating through a physical body, much like this one!  There are trees, rocks, a sky etc.  And they all appear just as real! If I pick a rock up in my dream, it feels the same to me in the dream as picking a rock up here does! 

In reality however, there is no rock!  There is no hand etc.  (much like this world!!) It's all electrical signals being processed by my consciousness.  In fact what you 'see' is not actually what's out there either... received signals, are sent as electrical waves to your brain where it's processed in the back of your head (occipital region) which sits forever in complete darkness!! The light entering your eyes, never makes it to the back of your head... so where is the light you 'see' actually coming from?? It's an illusion.  Everything you 'see' is actually inside your mind!!  So who is to say that a dream is any less real?  It's just happening in some different place!  If our consciousness can affect and even create the physical world around us (as proven by quantum physics) then why can't we also create on another level? The dream world could be very much as real as this one, only taking place on some different level of existence.  Layers upon layers, worlds upon worlds...

Look at the quote Brother Onam posted above:
ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.

How it affects us?  We are obviously here for a reason... we CHOSE this separation for a reason... there is something that only through duality can we realize...


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## Ishna (Nov 28, 2015)

Forgive me...



> I consider BOTH physical and non-physical to be the same thing!



Are they both unreal illusions?

I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying, actually.  This was the key sentence for me:



> In fact what you 'see' is not actually what's out there either... received signals, are sent as electrical waves to your brain where it's processed in the back of your head (occipital region) which sits forever in complete darkness!!



I alluded to this in an earlier post, whilst comparing sound to colour, and that we can never really know if what I perceive as 'red' is what you perceive as 'red'.  I completely agree with you that what we 'see' is not what is actually out there - we see what and how we have evolved to see.



> Everything you 'see' is actually inside your mind!! So who is to say that a dream is any less real?



Because what we 'see' is how our brains process external stimuli.  We can use other instruments to verify the existence of light as a form of radiation.  We can even tell where the frequency of the light places its 'colour' on the spectrum.  Dreams are generated within the mind, not from external stimuli - that's what makes them less 'real'.



> How it affects us? We are obviously here for a reason... we CHOSE this separation for a reason... there is something that only through duality can we realize...



We didn't choose - Akaal Purakh did 

You're answered this already - we are here so Akaal Purakh can experience Itself.

It is only duality if your perspective is compartmentalizing everything.  Ultimately, any kind of divisions - scientific or social - are irrelevant because whether this is all an 'illusion' or not, it is *all* within Akaal Purakh, it is all make out of Akaal Purakh, because there can be no other place, and there is no other.



> ਪਉੜੀ ॥
> Pa▫oṛī.
> Pauri.
> 
> ...



Panna 475


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 28, 2015)

> Because what we 'see' is how our brains process external stimuli. We can use other instruments to verify the existence of light as a form of radiation. We can even tell where the frequency of the light places its 'colour' on the spectrum. Dreams are generated within the mind, not from external stimuli - that's what makes them less 'real'.



Ahhh but since ALL is frequency... which we have already proven, and dreams are but another frequency, are they really any less real?? Brainwaves are measurable by EEG as frequency.  Light, radiation, sound, heat, electromagnetism, and even thought... are all frequency.  All just vibration.  Take the lowest slowest vibrations, which is sound... and simply by visualizing different frequencies, you can actually see more and more complex forms arising - complex shapes which have emerged throughout history in the form of sacred geometry... As the frequency increases, so does the complexity of the geometry.  Dreams/ thought are no less real than a coin you hold in your hand. The coin, when you focus to subatomic level, is really just energy vortices... invisible, and vibrating at their own frequency.
Thought and matter are not two separate things!  Therefore, our dreams are just as real!

Guess what... your brain too.... disappears when you focus into that level! Just invisible vibrating energy.  Your thoughts, and your brain, and your dreams, and the coin are all the exact same thing.  Energy.  Conscious energy.



> Dreams are generated within the mind, not from external stimuli - that's what makes them less 'real'.



Ahhh but there really is no 'external stimuli' all that external stimuli is just energy vibrating slowly and you are tuned into it.  There is no internal vs external... there only 'is'

*“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” - Albert Einstein 

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”  - Nikola Tesla*


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## jsingh77 (Aug 31, 2016)

Scientists (ones who are trying to find limits from the smaller and bigger perspective) are seeking so as the religious person. But former seeks to say 'I did it' (seeking would never be complete) and later seeks to say 'Everything is nothing but him' (that is the goal). 
Author says 'We CAN perceive these expanding limits, in fact we have, and we know that The Universe is 13.7 billion years old with an increasing rate of accuracy.'
'expanding limits' implies universe is inside something else, perhaps another universe, this is called self similar composition, also called 'FRACTALS'. (Search on you tube to be amazed about Creators creation).
 Scientists don't even know anything what 95% of observable universe is made of (they named it dark matter).


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 31, 2016)

jsingh77 said:


> 'expanding limits' implies universe is inside something else, perhaps another universe, this is called self similar composition, also called 'FRACTALS'. (Search on you tube to be amazed about Creators creation).
> Scientists don't even know anything what 95% of observable universe is made of (they named it dark matter).



Actually there IS a way which something can expand and still not be within something else (in the sense of space anyway).

If the Universe is really manifest out of thought (as suggested by the double slit experiment, which shows us that as an electron can behave as either a wave or a particle, but the mere act of conscious observation, is what collapses the wave function, essentially turning the electron from something intangible - a wave has no substance of itself, but is just energy travelling through a medium -  to something tangible in the form of a particle of matter). This suggests that consciousness IS the base of the Universe and exists outside of the constructs of space / time in a quantum state.

Now lets imagine the world is like a dream (and Gurbani uses the comparison as well) When you dream at night, how can you quantify how 'large' that dream world is? You can't measure it as tangible space from outside of it, and from within it, the only way you can see how far it goes, is to look further. Well, since the dream is essentially created AS YOU DREAM IT, that means the mere act of LOOKING further, causes more dreamworld to be created! It has been suggested the Universe is similar. So maybe our (collective) consciousness peering further and further, actually creates the reality that shows us more.  In other words maybe 13.7 billion light years is as far as we can look (or have looked so far). Maybe the next milestone will be when we discover what lies beyond that.... And maybe that is not yet created by our collective (ONE Universal) Consciousness?

I want to include a somewhat creepy claymation from Adventures of Mark Twain. I saw this years ago but never noticed the final words of the 'Satan' character. Listen to the whole thing as it speaks about the futility of our greed, war, etc. and even how dispoable 'we' (as characters) are. But his final words about the nature of reality gave me goosebumps when I had seen this again recently....
(I know the video is not Sikh related but the same concept is there... just goes to show that science - quantum physics, philosophy, Gurbani, other spiritual paths... all seem to be pointing to this truth about reality - and then there is this children's claymation that I don't think anyone really ever analyzed closely before)






@Brother Onam 
@Original 
Just wondering what your input is on that video? Do you think they were trying to get the same message across about the nature of the Universe being vibration / thought?


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## jsingh77 (Sep 2, 2016)

I agree with you. I agree with Mark that we are only a thought because evolution (Waheguru is one who modeled and initiated this process) has instilled in us panj vikar and one of them (hau-mainn) creates this thought ('me' which give rise to illusion of relations of a person to others persons and things).
But he also said its all emptiness (contrary to sikhism) but in fact according to gurbani we are 'akaal purkh's' jot and this creation is also true because he is true.
Suhi Mahalla 5
Satgur paas benantya mile naam aadhara!! Tutha sacha patshah taap gaya sansara!! Bhagta ki tek tu santa ki ot tu sacha sirjanhara!! Rahao!! 
Sach teri samagri sach tera darbara!! 
Sach tere khajinia sach tera pasara!! Tera roop agam hai anup tera darsara!! Hao kurbane tere sewka jin har naam pyara!! Sabe iicha purya ja paya agam apara!! Guru Nanak milya parbrahm terya charna ko balihara!!
 Our knowledge (not observation) is what is creating the unobserved universe, this just not only imply that space and matter is created but also the unrecorded history is rewritten to establish the causality according to our objective knowledge. Have a look at the thought experiment at the end of video and at 9:00, 



.
I think about it like this, like a creator of game or a movie, akaal purkh (being "Trikale") can edit the causality of unrecorded or unknown knowledge by changing factors in the past and similarly shape our future.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Sep 2, 2016)

Thanks for the input yes I have seen that video before as well! All of these show that matter and space/time are only constructs. All is actually thought. It also begs the question, are we really in control of our own decisions and actions? Gurbani says that all is Waheguru we do nothing and these experiments seem to suggest that. In studies of the brain, where a decision is made they discovered that the brain already had the answer long before the person thought they actually came to the decision. Sometimes by up to 7 seconds. So was the person making the decision or only under the illusion that they made it?




jsingh77 said:


> I agree with you. I agree with Mark that we are only a thought because evolution (Waheguru is one who modeled and initiated this process) has instilled in us panj vikar and one of them (hau-mainn) creates this thought ('me' which give rise to illusion of relations of a person to others persons and things).
> But he also said its all emptiness (contrary to sikhism) but in fact according to gurbani we are 'akaal purkh's' jot and this creation is also true because he is true.
> Suhi Mahalla 5
> Satgur paas benantya mile naam aadhara!! Tutha sacha patshah taap gaya sansara!! Bhagta ki tek tu santa ki ot tu sacha sirjanhara!! Rahao!!
> ...


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## jsingh77 (Sep 3, 2016)

I think our mind or 'mat' is influenced by 'Guns/Auguns' which stereotypes particular facts in memory or even stereotypes our perception to create particular thoughts. This stereotyping affects our impulsive reaction generated by our unconscious mind.  
*
BHARIYE MAT PAAPAA KAE SANG OH DHOPAE NAAVAE KAE RANG*
When the mind becomes polluted by evil thoughts and deeds, it is cleaned by meditating on God’s Name with love and devotion.



*TITHAE GHARIAE SURAT MAT MAN BUDH,*
There (in this stage of spiritual hard work), a person molds his conscience, mind, soul, and intellect

On the other hand, our intellect ('budh') can reason on those thoughts if we are conscious enough ('Bibek budh') about our actions (karams) and tell us (to our 'mann') to follow those thoughts. If we have knowledge about gurbani (because we did good karam before) or gur'mat' i.e. to create good thoughts, then our intellect will also try to consider that while making decision for our 'mann'. Depending on how much devotion ( we have towards following the gurbani and how much nirmal (self-deprecation) is our mann) our mann will then decide on particular action (karam). 

*AHRAN MAT VED HATHIAAR*
Let your mind be the anvil, knowledge your hammer (awaken your mind by sharpening it with spiritual knowledge).
 If we blindly follows the bad thoughts created by our 'mann' we can say that our 'atma' or 'zameer' is dead or we are manmukh. 


Have a look at determinism vs free will (philosophy) on you tube, where they argue we do not have free will. All our actions are result of our beliefs (knowledge of ourself and others), desire and temptations.

Gurbani tells us how to how to get rid of this karam chakar  or deterministic nature of our mind

*Mann jeete jag jeet

Karam karat hovai nihkaram* 
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.
*tis baisno kaa nirmal Dharam* 
 Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

*so pandit jo man parboDhai*
 He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.
*raam naam aatam meh soDhai*. 
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

*jap jan sadaa sadaa din rainee*. 
Meditate on Him forever and ever, day and night. 
*sabh tay ooch "nirmal" ih karnee*. 
This way of life is exalted and immaculate. 

When we do "nirmal" or "nihkaram", our mind will not be influenced by either the pride ("hau-main") that we did something good (so we deserve something).


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## swarn bains (Sep 5, 2016)

SGGs is a poetry book. The meanings reflect what the state of the mind of the reader is. Mr bayan does not know punjabi or the spiritual poetry. he read someone else's translation and then put his scientific results. First he should concentrate in his mind and then read sggs find his own meanings and then comment. It is easy to blame others on hear say but hard to do on your own and with your own mind. I would not mind discussing it with mr bayan or any other critic. God did not defuse light in all the planets as some say sun abides in the moon. To me it says that sun gives light to moon but mr Bayan or the other critics do not know the meanings but write what they hear or read some one else's writing who in the first place did not know how to interpret or find the meanings.


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