# Why Are So Many Gods And Demons Listed In This Shabad?



## Ishna (Oct 2, 2013)

Do you think there's a reason why Guru Sahib went to such lengths to name so many gods, demons, personalities, etc. in this shabad which starts on ang 224?

I haven't pasted the shabad here because it's 12 verses long.

Obviously the central theme of the shabad is clear, that those beings are nothing compared to Akaal Purakh, and that haughty ego and Maya get you nowhere in the end and it doesn't matter who you think you are, but is there another message here?

Thanks


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## spnadmin (Oct 2, 2013)

It is time for this forum to recognize and appreciate the dozens of times you have brought us back to a nose in the page relationship with Gurbani. Without you it would be a random event for many of us to read in concentration and focus -- trying to dive unto the depths and come back with the pearls.

Later in the day I will post the shabad for you, and we can all have moments of pure delight.

Some hints:

1. The shabad immediately preceding gives important insight into this shabad. Here are a few verses from the preceding shabad 



> ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਰਖਵਾਲੇ ॥
> Kar kirpā rākẖo rakẖvāle.
> Show Your Mercy, and save me, O Savior Lord!
> 
> ...


2. The shabad is referring to historico-mythical content in Hindu belief systems.
3. The last line is probably the most cryptic of all, and the turn-key to the rest of it. It has at first blush a contradiction built into it, which is not a contradiction, and resolves the whole hymn.


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## spnadmin (Oct 2, 2013)

From Ang 224, translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, M.D.

I would start with the rehao line and work backward and forward from that. Also keep in mind that Brahma is not the same as the Braham, and that some references here may have some historical background that over time became mythologized (not in a negative sense, but in the sense that a religious truth had emerged for worshipers by Guru Nanak's time.)


ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1. 
Gauree, First Mehl: 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਕੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Barahmai garab kī▫ā nahī jāni▫ā. 
Brahma acted in pride, and did not understand. 

ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪੜੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Beḏ kī bipaṯ paṛī pacẖẖuṯāni▫ā. 
Only when he was faced with the downfall of the Vedas did he repent. 

ਜਹ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਤਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
Jah parabẖ simre ṯahī man māni▫ā. ||1|| 
Remembering God in meditation, the mind is conciliated. ||1|| 

ਐਸਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੈ ॥ 
Aisā garab burā sansārai. 
Such is the horrible pride of the world. 
*
ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Jis gur milai ṯis garab nivārai. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
The Guru eliminates the pride of those who meet Him. ||1||Pause|| *

ਬਲਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
Bal rājā mā▫i▫ā ahaŉkārī. 
Bal the King, in Maya and egotism, 

ਜਗਨ ਕਰੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਰ ਅਫਾਰੀ ॥ 
Jagan karai baho bẖār afārī. 
held his ceremonial feasts, but he was puffed up with pride. 

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛੇ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਰੀ ॥੨॥ 
Bin gur pūcẖẖe jā▫e pa▫i▫ārī. ||2|| 
Without the Guru's advice, he had to go to the underworld. ||2|| 

ਹਰੀਚੰਦੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਜਸੁ ਲੇਵੈ ॥ 
Harīcẖanḏ ḏān karai jas levai. 
Hari Chand gave in charity, and earned public praise. 

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇ ਅਭੇਵੈ ॥ 
Bin gur anṯ na pā▫e abẖevai. 
But without the Guru, he did not find the limits of the Mysterious Lord. 

ਆਪਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ਆਪੇ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਵੈ ॥੩॥ 
Āp bẖulā▫e āpe maṯ ḏevai. ||3|| 
The Lord Himself misleads people, and He Himself imparts understanding. ||3|| 

ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਦੁਰਾਚਾਰੀ ॥ 
Ḏurmaṯ harṇākẖas ḏurācẖārī. 
The evil-minded Harnaakhash committed evil deeds. 

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਗਰਬ ਪ੍ਰਹਾਰੀ ॥ 
Parabẖ nārā▫iṇ garab par▫hārī. 
God, the Lord of all, is the Destroyer of pride. 

ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ॥੪॥ 
Parahlāḏ uḏẖāre kirpā ḏẖārī. ||4|| 
He bestowed His Mercy, and saved Prahlaad. ||4|| 

ਭੂਲੋ ਰਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਅਚੇਤਿ ॥ 
Bẖūlo rāvaṇ mugaḏẖ acẖeṯ. 
Raawan was deluded, foolish and unwise. 

ਲੂਟੀ ਲੰਕਾ ਸੀਸ ਸਮੇਤਿ ॥ 
Lūtī lankā sīs sameṯ. 
Sri Lanka was plundered, and he lost his head. 

ਗਰਬਿ ਗਇਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੇਤਿ ॥੫॥ 
Garab ga▫i▫ā bin saṯgur heṯ. ||5|| 
He indulged in ego, and lacked the love of the True Guru. ||5|| 

ਸਹਸਬਾਹੁ ਮਧੁ ਕੀਟ ਮਹਿਖਾਸਾ ॥ 
Sahasbāhu maḏẖ kīt mahikẖāsā. 
The Lord killed the thousand-armed Arjun, and the demons Madhu-keetab and Meh-khaasaa. 

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਲੇ ਨਖਹੁ ਬਿਧਾਸਾ ॥ 
Harṇākẖas le nakẖahu biḏẖāsā. 
He seized Harnaakhash and tore him apart with his nails. 

ਦੈਤ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਅਭਿਆਸਾ ॥੬॥ 
Ḏaiṯ sangẖāre bin bẖagaṯ abẖi▫āsā. ||6|| 
The demons were slain; they did not practice devotional worship. ||6|| 

ਜਰਾਸੰਧਿ ਕਾਲਜਮੁਨ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ 
Jarāsanḏẖ kālajmun sangẖāre. 
The demons Jaraa-sandh and Kaal-jamun were destroyed. 

ਰਕਤਬੀਜੁ ਕਾਲੁਨੇਮੁ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥ 
Rakaṯbīj kālunem biḏāre. 
Rakat-beej and Kaal-naym were annihilated. 

ਦੈਤ ਸੰਘਾਰਿ ਸੰਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੭॥ 
Ḏaiṯ sangẖār sanṯ nisṯāre. ||7|| 
Slaying the demons, the Lord saved His Saints. ||7|| 

*
ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
Āpe saṯgur sabaḏ bīcẖāre.
He Himself, as the True Guru, contemplates the Shabad.*


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## Ishna (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks so much for providing the shabad!  Off topic for a moment but what's your technique for copy/pasting Gurbani? I tried to go via notepad earlier but still the spacing between the lines was still all over the place. Yours is so neat - what's the secret? Going via Word?


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## spnadmin (Oct 2, 2013)

I only use srigranth for this purpose. Copy the lines. Paste to a Word Document (or Notepad). The Gurmukhi looks like little squares but it comes up right again on the SPN comment window. 

Then I copy from the Word Document to the SPN Comment window. Go back and insert lines between the last line of English and the first line of Gurmukhi, until all are done. Then Save. 

I never use Select All, before Copy from the Word Document (or Notepad) because it captures and then transfers a lot of bothersome background code. Rather, I highlight the lines as needed, then copy, and then paste.


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 2, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> From Ang 224, translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, M.D.
> 
> I would start with the rehao line and work backward and forward from that. Also keep in mind that Brahma is not the same as the Braham, and that some references here may have some historical background that over time became mythologized (not in a negative sense, but in the sense that a religious truth had emerged for worshipers by Guru Nanak's time.)
> 
> ...


 Above is the surface meaning of the sabd. When I look at gurbani, I find at some place guru sahib says there are endless Brahmas and also there is no Brahma, then which brahma is referred above and also tells me different meaning of 'garab' . In addition literal meaning also tells that, 'The Lord Himself misleads people, and He Himself imparts understanding' when He never misleads anyone and He never kills anyone as claimed in above sabd that He seized Harnaakhash and tore him apart with his nails. There are so many contradiction and I am wondering whether Guru sahib is explaining history and what is the message by listing so many demons in this sabd.

I would be obliged if someone could explain how I apply this sabd on myself to be sachiar.

best regards
sahni


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## spnadmin (Oct 2, 2013)

sahni ji

I do not dispute what you are saying. However, I am heavily influenced by the approach of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana. The historical backdrop of a shabad givens understanding to the message that Guru Sahib was imparting to the people of his day. That is more than superficial. Before we jump to the "sachiar" of our lives today, it is helpful to understand the immediate impact of the shabad on the ears of the very first people who heard it. Application is the next step.

Later I am going to start a thread on how jarring it is and how unfair to leap from the words we see before our eyes to an personal application. What happens between the two? Often a question, such as Ishna ji's question, never gets answered when we leap. Someone sees before his/her very eyes the name Rakat beej and wonders, "What is Guru Sahib talking about? Why did he even bring that up? Why did he mention Rakat beej in the first place, instead of some other character? " Even if Guru Sahib is moving in the direction of problems of ego here, one needs to make the connection, or the question that was asked goes unanswered. Taking the meaning for your life or for my life ignores the need that another person has placed before us. Once we get more specific then they can see it better.

Specific, immediate, historical, none of that is superficial. It is responsive. It is helpful. It turns vichaar into a deliberate and conscious process. It helps us understand whether a translation is good or not good enough. Otherwise, we are asking someone else to take our intuitive wink at face value and deprive them of the opportunity to dig deeper.


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## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2013)

ishna ji

Not all of the characters mentioned are 'gods." Some of them are demi-gods and others are mythological demons while others are personages from history who over time became epic characters. Guru Sahib refers to more than one scenario, from the Bhagata Veda, Mahabhrata (?) and the Ramayana. Without checking each personage mentioned, I can't tell if any other textual source has been included. These are also shabads that record Guru Sahib's udassi, in which he preached to the masses at various shrines and places sacred to the Hindu faith. 

The point however is that each tale referenced in the shabad has in the background a moral struggle between good and evil, as told in the epic Hindu scriptures. They are morality tales. Sometimes evil is destroyed; and other times an essentially good person fails to recognize the influence of divine goodness and goes spiritually adrift.

I don't have time to go through each one of the background stories in detail. Prahalad appears throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as iconic of simple and unwavering devotion to the divine. On ang 1154, this description also clears up who Harniskash was (also known as Harianakasipu).

The story of Prahalad http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...ures_and_discourses/the_story_of_prahlada.htm

Prahalad is mentioned many times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pointing to his symbolic importance as the measure of goodness humans could aspire to in the Hindu world. Guru Sahib makes use of the familiarity of the people with the story of Prahalad to emphasize his point. 




> Prahlaad was placed in a cell, and the door was locked. The fearless child was not afraid at all. He said, "Within my being, is the Guru, the Lord of the World. The created being tried to compete with his Creator, but he assumed this name in vain. That which was predestined for him has come to pass; he started an argument with the Lord's humble servant. ||7|| The father raised the club to strike down Prahlaad, saying, Where is your God, the Lord of the Universe, now? He replied, "The Life of the World, the Great Giver, is my Help and Support in the end. Wherever I look, I see Him permeating and prevailing."||8|| Tearing down the pillars, the Lord Himself appeared. The egotistical demon was killed and destroyed. The minds of the devotees were filled with bliss, and congratulations poured in. He blessed His servant with glorious greatness. ||9|| (Guru Granth Sahib , page no: 1154)




Another story familiar to those who heard the preaching of Guru Sahib is that of Hari Chand. The story includes reference to a frank moment in history, which over time takes on the glow of legend as many historical events do.

My source for this is http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/philosophy/mythological-references/harichand


> The king Harish Chandra (generally known as Hari Chand) was the twenty-eighth king of the solar dynasty; and son of Trishanku. _(my note: this story would also be known in detail by the common people, and passed down through oral tradition)_
> 
> His capital was Patna. He was famous for his generosity and truthfulness. He had to face great odds because of his righteousness and remaining steadfast to his words. Once his preceptor Vishwamitra got angry with him and in his absence completed the ceremonies of his sacrificial feast through another Brahmin. Because of this, Vishwamitra wanted to punish him.
> 
> ...



The story of Rawan comes from the Ramayana. 

In each story one or more major characters is lost in delusion/maya, or is corrupted by blind rage, unharnessed cruelty, envy, lust and most importantly ego. Guru Sahib gives a brief account in a voice of total neutrality. Yet these stories, in which morally corrupt beings come to a dismal end (punished by Vishnu), are framed by references to the alternative conception of Divine Truth and Goodness. These stories set the stage; however, the teaching of Guru Nanak takes matters into another dimension. I think you can take it from there. What is the relevance of these images to the shabad itself, the rehao and concluding verses, or to the shabad that precedes this one that sums up Guruji's understanding of an all-powerful divine presence?


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## angrisha (Oct 3, 2013)

Im going to have to read this shaabad in greater detail in the morning but I did have a couple quick thoughts on the opening few lines



> ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
> Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
> Gauree, First Mehl:
> 
> ...


Im not sure with the last repent part, but if we take this with hindu mythology... there is a story (I will have to look up the exact wording), about Bharma at some point lieing to mahadev about something for which Mahadev proceeded to cut off one of his heads. If that is what is being refereed to, then I think to understand we would have to familiarize ourselves with that story.... I will try and find it somewhere if I can to post. 

IMO, Gurbani is very rarely fully literal or historical. Personally, I think the references like SPN JI said are to facilitate greater understanding. 

Sometimes I wonder if it its necessary to read up further on some of these references to fully understand what the content is....


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 3, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
> Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
> Gauree, First Mehl:
> 
> ...


Though there are thousands of Name of God mentioned in Gurbani but distinction is clearly given by stating, “Word RAM, I am uttering is not the son of Dasrath but the one which means that ‘Entity’, which pervades in each and every heart.” - Guru Granth ang.1374.15. Likewise distinction between Shiva and Shakti is given by stating - mind and matter - has been destroyed, and the darkness has been dispelled. SGGS.163.8. I can cite dozens of other pankties where clarification is given. 

Literal interpretation of above pankti expressing arrogance/egotism of Brahma, reveals that Gurbani is trying to demean the Brahma who is considered as God by millions. Whereas same Brahma in japjisahib is glorified by stating, 'ਕੇਤੇ ਬਰਮੇ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਅਹਿ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਕੇ ਵੇਸ ॥ infinite creation of divine virtues are called Brahmeh.  I think it is high time to contemplate the message in between the line and understand why Guru sahib have used these mythological name. That will really enhance our understanding of guru's message.

best regards
sahni


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## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2013)

japjisahibji

The question of the thread is "Why are there so many gods and demons listed in this shabad?" So the answer would be to explain why there are so many gods and demons in the shabad. Otherwise a different question is being answered.

In the Hindu version of this story, Brahma is punished. There is nothing superficial or literal about that. It is just the way it is and that is what Guru Nanak referred to. And your remark is a little unfair. 



> Literal interpretation of above pankti expressing arrogance/egotism of Brahma, reveals that Gurbani is trying to demean the Brahma who is considered as God by millions. Whereas same Brahma in japjisahib is glorified by stating, 'ਕੇਤੇ ਬਰਮੇ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਅਹਿ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਕੇ ਵੇਸ ॥ infinite creation of divine virtues are called Brahmeh. I think it is high time to contemplate the message in between the line and understand why Guru sahib have used these mythological name. That will really enhance our understanding of guru's message.



No one so far has left the interpretation of the pankti at the literal level or failed in the search for a deeper meaning. This is how my post on the gods and demons ended. It is clear that Guru Nanak goes on to correct our perceptions. 



> In each story one or more major characters is lost in delusion/maya, or is corrupted by blind rage, unharnessed cruelty, envy, lust and most importantly ego. Guru Sahib gives a brief account in a voice of total neutrality. Yet these stories, in which morally corrupt beings come to a dismal end (punished by Vishnu), are framed by references to the alternative conception of Divine Truth and Goodness. These stories set the stage; however, the teaching of Guru Nanak takes matters into another dimension. I think you can take it from there. What is the relevance of these images to the shabad itself, the rehao and concluding verses, or to the shabad that precedes this one that sums up Guruji's understanding of an all-powerful divine presence?



I don't understand the reason for your reaction, and I am saddened by it. There is a multi-layered story in this shabad and each layer deserves attention. Otherwise, as I suggested earlier, it is like reading the answer to a problem, and having no idea how someone reasoned to the answer. Why should the answer be taken at face value without the background that gets us there. Then one conclusion is a good as the next.


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 3, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> japjisahibji
> 
> The question of the thread is "Why are there so many gods and demons listed in this shabad?" So the answer would be to explain why there are so many gods and demons in the shabad. Otherwise a different question is being answered.
> 
> In the Hindu version of this story, Brahma is punished. There is nothing superficial or literal about that. It is just the way it is and that is what Guru Nanak referred to. And your remark is a little unfair. No one so far has left the interpretation of the pankti at the literal level or failed in the search for a deeper meaning. This is how my post on the gods and demons ended. It is clear that Guru Nanak goes on to correct our perceptions.


Spnadmin Jee

My intention is not to sadden you but to learn further from you. My concern is whether guru sahib is really trying to tell us tale of Brahma that he is punished and if punished then why guru sahib is glorifying this name on other pankties. Let us take another pankti, ' ਪੰਚਾਲੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜ ਸਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਧਿ ਆਈ ॥ Now 'panchali' is the one who married with five men - dropadi - the princesses of panchshala. Now when Panchali is linked with Mahabarta or Pandava - if that is true then why would Panchali became conscious/awared about RAM. As per episodes it should be Krishan and not Ram. Therefore gurmat panchali would be 'panch - whose antar atma is married with five vices asha, trishna etc and Ram Naam is oneness with God.

I wanted to discuss all the episodes step by step but you are really discourging me.

best regards
sahni


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## arshi (Oct 3, 2013)

*Angrisha ji*

*With respect to Brahma’s head this account is closest to the one I have heard several times in discourses by Sikh parcharaks.*

*http://wiki.phalkefactory.net/index.php?title=The_fifth_head_of_Brahma*

*The fifth head of Brahma*

*From PhalkeFactory*

_It is a story repeated in various Puranas, and across the internet: _
_"The acquiring of Brahma's heads makes for an interesting legend. When Brahma was creating the universe, he made a female deity known as Shatarupa (one with a hundred beautiful forms). Brahma was immediately infatuated. Shatarupa moved in various directions to avoid the gaze of Brahma. But wherever she went, Brahma developed a head. Thus, Brahma developed five heads, one on each side and one above the others. In order to control Brahma, Shiva cut off the top head. Also, Shiva felt that Shatarupa was Brahma's daughter, being created by him. Therefore, Shiva determined, it was wrong for Brahma to become obsessed with her. He directed that there be no proper worship in India for the "unholy" Brahma. Thus, only Vishnu and Shiva continue to be worshipped, while Brahma is almost totally ignored. Ever since the incident, Brahma has been reciting the four Vedas in his attempt at repentance." _

Spnadmin ji has very nicely summarised the backgrounds of some of the characters mentioned in the shabad. I distinctly remember my mother narrating the accounts of Dhruv and Prahlad when I was only five or six years old. I found them very interesting and educational. Some of these accounts underline important themes to enable us to understand relationships, and our main goal in life, better. This in turn enhances our understanding of Gurbani. 

However, I agree with you that it is not always essential to dig further into all of the characters mentioned for detailed accounts, to appreciate the main message. I personally love to go behind the characters whenever time affords it. The main theme here, in my opinion, is to tone down our egos; self-appraisal is more important than judging others. Humility is the hardest quality to nurture as egotism appears to be the driving force to succeed in this materialistic world. This can only achieved by the grace of Guru. For a Sikh, of course, there can no other than Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2013)

japjisahib04 said:


> Spnadmin Jee
> 
> My intention is not to sadden you but to learn further from you. My concern is whether guru sahib is really trying to tell us tale of Brahma that he is punished and if punished then why guru sahib is glorifying this name on other pankties.
> 
> ...



sahni ji

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਕੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Barahmai garab kī▫ā nahī jāni▫ā. 
Brahma acted in pride, and did not understand. 

ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪੜੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Beḏ kī bipaṯ paṛī pacẖẖuṯāni▫ā. 
Only when he was faced with the downfall of the Vedas did he repent. 


So who is the Brahma who acted in pride and was faced with the downfall of the Vedas? In Hindu philosophy it is rather the destruction of dharma, which refers to downfall of the “cosmic order.” Arshi ji has given us part of the explanation. Brahama/Prajapati, lord of all creatures, created all the beings of the world through incestuous relations with his sister. She tried to escape his advances by changing into various animals, and he would change into the male of the pair and mate with her. In that way all the creatures were created. The creation story then is one of unrepentant trickery and lust. But that is not the only story where the wiles of Brahma threaten dharma. Brahma also entered into a conspiracy with Vishnu as part of an argument with Shiva regarding who of the Trimurti was the most powerful. Shiva created a lingam of immeasurable length. Brahma convinced Vishu to change into a swan, while he Brahma changed into a boar, and both set off in opposite directions to find the beginning and end of  Shiva’s fulsome manhood. Vishnu conceded defeat eventually and confessed the trick to Shiva; but Brahma refused to confess or admit defeat. Both stories end with Sarasvati  and Shiva placing a curse on Brahma because of his egotism and boundless lust. 

So how could Guru Nanak be critical of Brahma in one story and glorifying Brahma in Japjisahib ji. The question can be resolved this way. He is doing neither. He is not criticizing nor is he glorifying! 

In    * ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਕੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Barahmai garab kī▫ā nahī jāni▫ā. 
Brahma acted in pride, and did not understand. 

ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪੜੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Beḏ kī bipaṯ paṛī pacẖẖuṯāni▫ā. 
Only when he was faced with the downfall of the Vedas did he repent. 
*
 Guru Nanak is merely holding a mirror to a belief system and acknowledging that this is what his audience worshiped: Brahma who threatened the cosmic order by egotism, trickery and lust. In his wake, humans also defile the cosmic order through pride and depravity.  However, the horrible, destructive pride of the world can  be resolved.
*
ਜਹ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਤਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
Jah parabẖ simre ṯahī man māni▫ā. ||1|| 
Remembering God in meditation, the mind is conciliated. ||1|| 

ਐਸਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੈ ॥ 
Aisā garab burā sansārai. 
Such is the horrible pride of the world.
*
Now Gur Nanak has made the analogy between the all-too-human Brahma and humans themselves. We destroy dharma with our cleverness, and it is all grounded in ego. Yet our reconciliation is possible: 
*
ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Jis gur milai ṯis garab nivārai. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
The Guru eliminates the pride of those who meet Him. ||1||Pause|| *

None of this contradicts  the tuk which you quoted  from Japji Sahib - Pauri 35 
*
ਕੇਤੇ ਬਰਮੇ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਅਹਿ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਕੇ ਵੇਸ ॥ 
Keṯe barme gẖāṛaṯ gẖaṛī▫ahi rūp rang ke ves.* … There is no contradiction because this is not one Brahma. It is not the Brahma/ Prajapati, but many "so many Brahmas"   ਬਰਮੇ  Barme is the plural of Brahma. What does so many Brahmas tell us?  The tuk is part of the pauree of Gian khand where the so-many Brahmas are the whole of creation that swirls in buzzing confusion, along-side the Indras, Krishnas and Shivas, winds, fires, and waters, moons and suns, Sidhs and yogis, dem-gods and demons, rulers and languages, The pauree ends:

*ਕੇਤੀਆ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇਤੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਅੰਤੁ ॥੩੫॥ 
Keṯī▫ā surṯī sevak keṯe Nānak anṯ na anṯ. ||35|l 

*His creation has no limit, he is without limit. It is Waheguru who is glorified, not Brahma, and it is for  Gian or wisdom to sort through in order to achieve the spiritual wisdom that reigns supreme.


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## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2013)

Now we can discuss Panchalli and Ram, but only if it is relevant to this thread. This thread has to stay on track.


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## aristotle (Oct 4, 2013)

angrisha said:


> Im going to have to read this shaabad in greater detail in the morning but I did have a couple quick thoughts on the opening few lines
> 
> ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਕੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
> Barahmai garab kī▫ā nahī jāni▫ā.
> ...



The line 'ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪੜੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਿਆ ॥' has been translated differently by Manmohan Singh (and similarly by Prof. Sahib Singh and Faridkot Teeka) as:



> Faced with the calamity of the* loss of Vedas*, he did repent.



If it is so, this instance most probably refers to the mythological story of the Vedas being stolen from _Brahma_ by _Madhu-Kaitabha_ demons, which were later recovered and restored by _Vishnu's_ incarnation _Hayagriva_ 
(See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayagriva)


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## arshi (Oct 4, 2013)

Spadmin ji

Great post (# 14) taking the discussion to a new level! I had to read it a few times to appreciate it.

At my current level of awareness I tend to agree with you in that Guru Nanak neither criticizes nor glorifies Brahma. He is merely informing us, guiding us, showing us the pitfalls of our ego and arrogance by giving illustrations from the past. He is telling us Waheguru’s creation is infinite – that it has no limits _(Nanak ant na ant). _

Who wants mokash? One can and should never stop learning. I could sit at the feet of Nanak this lifetime and lifetimes to come to keep learning from him. This is where the real joy (ecstacy) lies and not in reaching the destination. May I stay glued to the feet of jagdi jyot Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

An Urdu shere comes to mind:

_Satgur bhi yehi baba bhi yehi, rehbar bhi yehi mera pir yehi_
_yarab ho yahan mein sabh ka bhala bus yeh hain duaa-ain Nanak ki_

In brief: for me Guru Nanak is the master of masters, one who seeks the well-being of the entire world/universe.

Would like to add more but running out of time – duty calls.

Best wishes and chardi kala ji.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## spnadmin (Oct 4, 2013)

aristotle ji

Your observation cements it for me. 

"Only faced with the loss of the Vedas, he did repent."

It took that much for Brahma to wake-up in a manner of speaking. The story of the theft of the Vedas fits better because in the end Vishnu comes to the rescue. The rescue by Vishnu as an analogy to Akaal is not unheard in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is quite consistent an analogy for Guruji to use.


arshi ji This is how I myself have felt many times. 





> Who wants mokash? One can and should never stop learning. I could sit at the feet of Nanak this lifetime and lifetimes to come to keep learning from him. This is where the real joy (ecstacy) lies and not in reaching the destination.


 A constant craving !


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## aristotle (Oct 4, 2013)

True spnadmin Ji,
Here we must keep in mind that though referring to the so-called beginning of creation (as envisaged in Hindu mythology), this episode occurs in Bhagvata Purana (a product of the Vaishnava school of thought) and not in the Vedas, and so it is natural Vishnu alongwith his incarnations is depicted as the God himself in most of the stories, over and above the rest two components of Trideva.

But Guru Sahib makes two points here. 


> Barahmai garab kī▫ā nahī jāni▫ā.
> Brahma acted in pride, *and did not
> understand.*



and



> Jah parabẖ simre ṯahī man māni▫ā. ||1||
> *Remembering God in meditation, the mind is
> conciliated. ||1||*
> Aisā garab burā sansārai.
> ...



Which God is even Brahma, the Hindu 'God' for creation is obliged to remember?
What is the relation of 'Gur'(probably the accent mark 'u' from Gur-u has dissapeared because of its pairing with action word 'milai') wrt to Brahma?

Even when _Prabhu_ may be used in Vaishnava circles for Vishnu, the use of _Prabhu_ and _ Gur(Gur-u)_ concurrently makes it clear beyond doubt that the 'higher' diety referred to here is not Vishnu but the Akal Purakh.

Brahma immersing in pride, loss of Vedas, the Haigrava-demons battle, all occur in Hukam of the Akal Purakh, the single timeless Lord of all.

These are the little bits I have to offer.


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## spnadmin (Oct 4, 2013)

aristotle ji

Before Vishnu were Inder and Agni, and several other pre-Vedic divinities. The Trimurti evolved from a much earlier understanding of divine interactions with human beings, as the vedic scriptures evolved from earlier texts. 

The "little bits" you have to offer are in my opinion very important. The analogies that Guru Sahib uses are to make a point clear by using information that was in the minds and consciousness of the people of his day. These stories made sense to them, more than they do to us. But are they not always the platform for moving to the next level? All of the devas, Brahma, Vishnu etc. were beset with human traits, thus human shortcomings. So even if Vishnu exemplifies divine qualities, we still have the vedic record (and as you point out pre-vedic record) of gamesmanship . Guru Sahib is explaining that Waheguru, Parabh, or the Sat by any other name, transcends and is dependable, trustworthy and not given to sudden shifts in loyalty or expectations. That is what I get from all the shabads in which Hindu gods are discussed. They are not the Sat.


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## spnadmin (Oct 8, 2013)

sangat ji

Some of the other devtas were ignored or given little explanation in this thread. 

Today's Rozana Spokesman also (see above) has a feature article in Punjabi regarding the festival of Dussehra, which culminates a week from today, commemorating Ravan. The author of the first article, Giani Harbans Singh, related the connections between the legendary events and another section of SGGS in raag Aasa. I will look it up and post in minutes. Later we can get a general translation of the article too.

I found the following article at Sikh Chic and see that it answers some questions raised here that we left behind. It seems the SPN thread was posted just days before the Hindu feast of Dussehra. Interesting geographical differences between north an south India are also explained in considering the figure of Rawan (Ravan, Rawana). The story of Ram and Sita is part of the unfolding story. Timeline issues are also considered. Very good background to understand the mix of beliefs in the time of Guru Sahib ji.

The article is by GIRISH K.N. YADAV

http://www.sikhchic.com/1984/president_pranab_mukherjees_message_to_the_nation_india_on_dussehra



> The religious festival of Dussehra is being celebrated by the Hindus of Northern India this week, with its grand annual finale on Monday, October 14, 2013.
> 
> It is one of the most important Hindu festivals, and involves celebrations over the course of ten days, recalling the tragic abduction of Sita, the wife of Ram, the king of Ayodhya, by Ravan, the “Maha Brahmin” ruler of Sri Lanka who was also a great devotee of Lord Shiva.
> 
> ...


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## spnadmin (Oct 8, 2013)

The 2 shabads referenced to the Dusserha Mela or festival in Aasa ki Vaar, and explained by Giani Harbans Singh below.


ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਲੰਕਾ ਸਾ ਕੋਟੁ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਸੀ ਖਾਈ ॥
Lankā sā kot samunḏ sī kẖā▫ī.
A fortress like that of Sri Lanka, with the ocean as a moat around it -

ਤਿਹ ਰਾਵਨ ਘਰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
Ŧih rāvan gẖar kẖabar na pā▫ī. ||1||
there is no news about that house of Raavan. ||1||

ਕਿਆ ਮਾਗਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਈ ॥
Ki▫ā māga▫o kicẖẖ thir na rahā▫ī.
What shall I ask for? Nothing is permanent.

ਦੇਖਤ ਨੈਨ ਚਲਿਓ ਜਗੁ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ḏekẖaṯ nain cẖali▫o jag jā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I see with my eyes that the world is passing away. ||1||Pause||

ਇਕੁ ਲਖੁ ਪੂਤ ਸਵਾ ਲਖੁ ਨਾਤੀ ॥
Ik lakẖ pūṯ savā lakẖ nāṯī.
Thousands of sons and thousands of grandsons -

ਤਿਹ ਰਾਵਨ ਘਰ ਦੀਆ ਨ ਬਾਤੀ ॥੨॥
Ŧih rāvan gẖar ḏī▫ā na bāṯī. ||2||
but in that house of Raavan, the lamps and wicks have gone out. ||2||

ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਤਪਤ ਰਸੋਈ ॥
Cẖanḏ sūraj jā ke ṯapaṯ raso▫ī.
The moon and the sun cooked his food.

ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਕਪਰੇ ਧੋਈ ॥੩॥
Baisanṯar jā ke kapre ḏẖo▫ī. ||3||
The fire washed his clothes. ||3||

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਬਸਾਈ ॥
Gurmaṯ rāmai nām basā▫ī.
Under Guru's Instructions, one whose mind is filled with the Lord's Name,

ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਜਾਈ ॥੪॥
Asthir rahai na kaṯahūŉ jā▫ī. ||4||
becomes permanent, and does not go anywhere. ||4||

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਲੋਈ ॥
Kahaṯ Kabīr sunhu re lo▫ī.
Says Kabeer, listen, people:

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੫॥੮॥੨੧॥
Rām nām bin mukaṯ na ho▫ī. ||5||8||21||
without the Lord's Name, no one is liberated. ||5||8||21||

ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪੂਤੁ ਪਿਛੈਰੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
Pahilā pūṯ picẖẖairī mā▫ī.
First, the son was born, and then, his mother.

ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗੋ ਚੇਲੇ ਕੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
Gur lāgo cẖele kī pā▫ī. ||1||
The guru falls at the feet of the disciple. ||1||

ਏਕੁ ਅਚੰਭਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭਾਈ ॥
Ėk acẖambẖa▫o sunhu ṯumĥ bẖā▫ī.
Listen to this wonderful thing, O Siblings of Destiny!

ਦੇਖਤ ਸਿੰਘੁ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਗਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ḏekẖaṯ singẖ cẖarāvaṯ gā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I saw the lion herding the cows. ||1||Pause||

ਜਲ ਕੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਤਰਵਰਿ ਬਿਆਈ ॥
Jal kī macẖẖulī ṯarvar bi▫ā▫ī.
The fish of the water gives birth upon a tree.

ਦੇਖਤ ਕੁਤਰਾ ਲੈ ਗਈ ਬਿਲਾਈ ॥੨॥
Ḏekẖaṯ kuṯrā lai ga▫ī bilā▫ī. ||2||
I saw a cat carrying away a dog. ||2||

ਤਲੈ ਰੇ ਬੈਸਾ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੂਲਾ ॥
Ŧalai re baisā ūpar sūlā.
The branches are below, and the roots are above.

ਤਿਸ ਕੈ ਪੇਡਿ ਲਗੇ ਫਲ ਫੂਲਾ ॥੩॥
Ŧis kai ped lage fal fūlā. ||3||
The trunk of that tree bears fruits and flowers. ||3||

ਘੋਰੈ ਚਰਿ ਭੈਸ ਚਰਾਵਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Gẖorai cẖar bẖais cẖarāvan jā▫ī.
Riding a horse, the buffalo takes him out to graze.

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਬੈਲੁ ਗੋਨਿ ਘਰਿ ਆਈ ॥੪॥
Bāhar bail gon gẖar ā▫ī. ||4||
The bull is away, while his load has come home. ||4||

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੁ ਇਸ ਪਦ ਬੂਝੈ ॥
Kahaṯ Kabīr jo is paḏ būjẖai.
Says Kabeer, one who understands this hymn,

ਰਾਮ ਰਮਤ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ॥੫॥੯॥੨੨॥ ਬਾਈਸ ਚਉਪਦੇ ਤਥਾ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ
Rām ramaṯ ṯis sabẖ kicẖẖ sūjẖai. ||5||9||22||
and chants the Lord's Name, comes to understand everything. ||5||9||22|| 22 Chau-Padas And Panch-Padas.

ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੇ ਤਿਪਦੇ ੮ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ੭ ਇਕਤੁਕਾ ੧
Bā▫īs cẖa▫upḏe ṯathā pancẖpaḏe āsā sarī Kabīr jī▫o ke ṯipḏe 8 ḏuṯuke 7 ikṯukā 1
Aasaa Of Kabeer Jee, 8 Tri-Padas, 7 Du-Tukas, 1 Ik-Tuka:


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