# The Tenth Gate, The Dasam Dwaar



## gillgk

Has anybody experienced the opening of the Dasam Dwaar? What happens when it opens? Can you relate your experiences or it is all hush hush lest you incur Guru's wrath?

Can the Dasam Dwaar open without the opening of the other chakra's through His Grace?


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## BhagatSingh

> Has anybody experienced the opening of the Dasam Dwaar?


Yes.



> What happens  when it opens?


Nothing significant from the perpective of someone whose Dasam Duar has not opened. 



> Can you relate your experiences or it is all hush hush  lest you incur Guru's wrath?


Opening of the Dasam Duar is like the fish seeing the water. I only share the details of my experiences in person to someone who is receptive to it.

Yeah then there is Wrath. He's a total bro, just watching out for you.



> Can the Dasam Dwaar open without the opening of the other chakra's through His Grace?


What the hell are chakras?

But yeah the Dasam Duar only opens with His grace. You can do things to make it more likely to open but it opens on it own. All you can really do is provide an environment for it where it is likely to bloom.

Listen to Dr. Banner's secret in the movie Avengers, very,  very closely.
The Avengers - Hulk - "I`m always angry" [HD] - YouTube


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## Archived_Member16

*As a matter of interest:*

*Dasam Duar – The Tenth Gate*

By Rawel Singh and Guruka Singh  


 ਭਨਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਰਮ ਪਟ ਖੂਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਸਾਚੀ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਹੈ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥੧॥੯॥  ੩  ੬੬੬.
 With the Guru’s grace the mask of delusion lifts and one is able to know about God; following the Guru’s instructions facilitates being absorbed in Him within the mind (M: 3, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 666).  

This verse of the third Guru refers to the delusion caused by preoccupation with oneself and one’s desires resulting in the feeling that the human soul is separate from the Creator.  The verse advises how the veil thus created can be lifted with the Guru’s help. This lifting of the veil or mask enables one to see reality by by opening a hidden gate within.

The human body has nine physical openings. These comprise of two eyes, two nostrils, two ears, mouth, **** and the genital opening. There is also an unseen opening called the tenth gate, Dasam Duar which remains closed and needs to be opened for spiritual experience.

*What is Dasam Duar? *

ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਘਾਟੀ ॥ ਊਪਰਿ ਹਾਟੁ ਹਾਟ ਪਰਿ ਆਲਾ ਆਲੇ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਥਾਤੀ ॥੪॥  ਬੇਣੀ  ੯੭੪

Dasam Duar is the abode of the inaccessible, Infinite Supreme Being; in the body there is a niche where He abides (Beni, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 974).


ਨਉ ਘਰ ਥਾਪੇ ਥਾਪਣਹਾਰੈ ॥ ਦਸਵੈ ਵਾਸਾ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰੈ ॥ ੧  ੧੦੩੬ 

The creator established nine gates (for the body); the unfathomable Lord resides in the tenth (M: 1, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 1036).


ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਪੇਖਤ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰੇ ॥ ੫  ੧੨੬੯ 

The Master of the universe abides in the mind and body (M: 5, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 1269). 


Thus the Dasam Duar is the gate that, when opened, enables vision of the Creator in the consciousness.

*What is the consciousness?*

The consciousness is not a physical entity and therefore cannot be seen. It has two supporting components, one physical and the other spiritual.  The physical component is the brain with its function of getting information, processing and converting it into intelligence. A portion of this information exists as thoughts within the mind.  But there is much, much more than the what we normally think of as the “mind.” In Gurbani, the word ਮਨਿ (man) means more than just the “thinking” mind. It means all the levels of the consciousness – superconscious, conscious, subconscious and unconscious. 

We sometimes call the spiritual essence of consciousness the Supreme Soul, part of which gives life to the body through the pranas, and which we call our own soul. While the Supreme Soul does not get involved with the body, each soul is the body’s master. Based on the intelligence received from the brain, the soul directs all actions of the body and is therefore responsible for them.  

The human body interacts with the environment through the nine openings. They have the specific functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting/speaking, excretion and procreation. The first four and the skin are also the sensory organs. The hands and feet are meant to do physical work. 

The sensory organs are subjected to pulls from the environment all the time and they are constantly charmed and seduced by them. The mind acts according to the information they provide. They influence the mind both positively and negatively according to its predisposition.

When they produce a negative influence the soul feels lonely and cut off from the Supreme Soul; a sort of obstacle grows between the two (which are in essence, one.) This obstacle is sometimes called “the wall of falsehood” or “the veil of illusion.”

Guru Nanak refers to this wall and how to demolish it. He asks a question and answers it thus: 

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥   ੧    ੧

How can the wall of falsehood be demolished to reach the Truth? 

Live in God’s will (hukam) (M: 1, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 1).

The Creator has no form so how do we know where He resides? The answer: His presence is experienced spiritually in the sound and design of the creation. There is a celestial music that no one plays but is heard by the subtle body. It is not a function of time; it is there all the time.  There is a common primal design to all things that becomes visible to the inner eye. This state of bliss is experienced by one whose sensory organs (which are part of the nine physical gates) are not constantly distracted. This allows the Dasam Duar to open. So the tenth gate is an experience, not a physical phenomenon: 

ਨਉ ਦਰ ਠਾਕੇ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਾਏ  ॥ ਦਸਵੈ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਓਥੈ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਵਜਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥  ੬॥ ੩  ੧੨੪

One, who controls the nine organs, gets to enter the tenth, the abode of the Creator; there the unstruck celestial music continues day and night; it is heard through the Guru’s word (M: 3, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 124).

The experience of Dasam Duar is made possible with the help of the Guru who helps the disciple to look beyond the physical organs: 

ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਗੁਫਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਵਾਜਾ ਪਵਣੁ ਵਜਾਇਆ ॥ ਵਜਾਇਆ ਵਾਜਾ ਪਉਣ ਨਉ ਦੁਆਰੇ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਕੀਏ ਦਸਵਾ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਰਖਾਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰੈ ਲਾਇ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਇਕਨਾ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥  ੩  ੯੨੨

The Creator put the soul in the body and gave it life; the body has nine manifest openings and a tenth is concealed; the tenth gate is shown to those who approach the Guru with devotion (M: 3, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 922).  

 ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਤਨ ਕੋਠੜੀ ਗੜ ਮੰਦਰਿ ਏਕ ਲੁਕਾਨੀ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਖੋਜੀਐ ਮਿਲਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਨੀ ॥੧॥  ੪  ੧੧੭੮
 The jewel of  God’s Naam remains concealed in a chamber in the body- fortress; when we find a true Guru we are motivated to search for it; once it is found the soul merges in Him (M: 4, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 1178).

The experience of the opening of the Dasam Duar is accompanied by an indescribable feeling of total awe, utter joy and deep humility.

*So where is the Dasam Duar located in the body?*

Not to be confused with the Ajna or third-eye-point, which is located at the pituitary gland between the eyebrows, the tenth gate is experienced at the top of the skull at the same location  as the soft spot one can feel on top of the head of an infant.

Ultimately, the experience of the opening of the tenth gate comes by Guru Ji’s kirpa. It is a state of grace. 

The store of potential energy which lies coiled at the base of the spine unfolds and travels up the subtle channels of the body piercing through the six chakras and emerging at the top of the head thus opening the Dasam Duar. 

The practice of Raj Yoga or Kundalini Yoga may help to release this dormant energy, but it is not a requirement for the experience.

Gurbani mentions the ten gates a number of times and describes the opening of the tenth gate as the blossoming of a many-petaled lotus flower bringing the vision of the Supreme Soul, the Creator abiding within. 

In Sukhmani Sahib the fifth Guru describes how the wall of falsehood is built by the sensory organs:

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਪਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਸੁਨਹਿ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਹਸਤ ਪਰ ਦਰਬ ਕਉ ਹਿਰਹਿ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਪੇਖਤ ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪਾਦ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਰਸਨਾ ਭੋਜਨ ਅਨ ਸ੍ਵਾਦ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਚਰਨ ਪਰ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਮਨ ਪਰ ਲੋਭ ਲੁਭਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਤਨ ਨਹੀ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਬਾਸੁ ਲੇਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸਭ ਭਏ ॥ ਸਫਲ ਦੇਹ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਲਏ ॥੫॥  ੫  ੨੬੮-੬੯

The falsehood is when the ears listen to others’ slander,
 the hands steal others’ wealth,
 the eyes look viciously at others’ beauty,
 the tongue is obsessed with taste of food and other cravings,
 the feet walk to do evil to others, 
the mind is possessed by greed, 
the body does not work for the good of others, 
the nose is enticed by vicious fragrance.
 All those who do not understand this, act in falsehood. 
Human birth is successful if one remembers God’s virtues and Divine commands (M: 5, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 288-89). 

One gets stoned or drunk with intoxicants that provide a kick but also leave a let-down or a hangover. Similarly the sensory organs are enchanted by the external environment and forget their original function which is to experience God. This ultimately results in the human soul forgetting the purpose for which it was sent — to give life to the body and merge back into the One. In other words the soul feels cut off from Hukam (God’s will) and becomes lost, forgetting its true identity.

Then one acts according to the ego which manifests behavior according to the three gunas, or energies, namely Tamas (ignorance, inertia), Rajas (passion, ego) and Satvas (calmness and purity.) In order to be able to experience the tenth gate one must become consciously aware of everything that passes in or out of the other nine gates, i.e. they must be controlled. 

The Guru helps his Sikh by making him aware of the distractions and how to overcome them. When distractions are overcome the tenth gate can open: 
ਨਗਰੀ ਏਕੈ ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਬਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਈ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੂਟੈ ਦਸਵਾ ਦਰੁ ਖੂਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਖੀਵਾ ਭਾਈ ॥੩॥ ਕ ੧੧੨੩

The body has nine gates, they should be constrained from wandering; 
when one comes out of the grip of the three gunas, the tenth gate opens, one gets the Vision and the mind becomes ecstatic (Kabir, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 1123). 


The Guru’s prescription for overcoming distractions is remembrance of Naam which means remembering one’s True Identity and then letting go of attachments and living each moment in God’s will. This provides peace of mind and contentment. The sensory organs are now able to overcome temptations:

ਦਸਮੀ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੇ ॥ ਮਨਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿ ਲੀਨੇ ॥ ਕਰਨੀ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਜਸੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥ ਨੈਨੀ ਪੇਖਤ ਸਾਧ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ ਰਸਨਾ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ਬੇਅੰਤ ॥ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਿਤਵੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਭਗਵੰਤ ॥ ਹਸਤ ਚਰਨ ਸੰਤ ਟਹਲ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧੦॥ ੫  ੨੯੮-੯੯
 Remembering Naam gives contentment;  
 with the ears one listens to the Creator’s praises, 
with the eyes sees the compassionate Guru; 
with the tongue praises the Infinite Lord, 
in the mind thinks of the perfect beloved Master; 
serves the Guru using hands and feet. 
All this is possible only with Divine grace, 
which when received opens the tenth gate, the Dasam Duar (M: 5, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 298-99).


A closed gate needs a code or key to open it. This key is with the Guru. The Second Guru says:

ਗੁਰੁ ਕੁੰਜੀ ਪਾਹੂ ਨਿਵਲੁ ਮਨੁ ਕੋਠਾ ਤਨੁ ਛਤਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਤਾਕੁ ਨ ਉਘੜੈ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਕੁੰਜੀ ਹਥਿ ॥੧॥  ੨  ੧੨੩੭
 The body is the cover for the chamber that contains the consciousness which is locked up beyond worldly attachments; the Guru is the key to the lock; the door of the consciousness cannot be opened except by the Guru since none else has the key (M: 2, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 1237). 


ਦਸਵੈ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਕੁੰਚੀ ਜਬ ਦੀਜੈ ॥ ਤਉ ਦਇਆਲ ਕੋ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੪॥  ਕ  ੩੪੧

 When the key is applied to the Tenth gate, one is able to have vision of the compassionate Lord (Kabir, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, p 341). 

The experience of opening the tenth gate is that of experiencing the Infinite within oneself and within all of creation. This may be achieved by overcoming the distractions and temptations that are the causes of selfish thoughts and deeds. The Guru makes this possible.
* 
source: *http://www.sikhnet.com/inspiration/dasam-duar-tenth-gate 

_____________________________________________________________
*PERSONAL NOTE:*

*“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” - Stuart Chase *

One of the unwritten "requirements" of spirituality is  that while WALKING the spiritual life path , a person can share their  spiritual academic knowledge, BUT NOT HIS / HER PERSONAL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE!  For, the more one "with holds" the personal experience within, the more one gets. The more one shares this personal spiritual experience, the LESS one gets!

With Divine Love & Blessings of Waheguru Ji,

Harbhajan S. Sangha


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## Luckysingh

Gillgkji, 
I think Bhagatji has answered that very well.

I still don't know what all these chakras and their sequences are.
The opening is like being able to see, interpret and perceive the world and everything around you in a different manner. 
It makes you realise ''why didn't i ever see or acknowledge that before ??'

It happens in it's own time and with it's own will. There is no hocus pocus exercises or breathing technques to help undo the combination lock for the gate. You just need to believe that as you proceed with your inward journey, then many new openings will occur. 
If you have this simple faith with your innerself, then that's all you need with some dedication and love for the truth. 
NOTE- the Love for the Truth is very important, some get confused like, that simran and meditation requires love for the 'self' only!!!

I don't pay attention to all these yoga books, chakras and all that. Especially after I did try and start reading some books that were showing the way, I soon realised that I didn't need most of that stuff, as my so called kundalini and gates were already open.

Of course, there will be more of these to come as I progress, but I try not to get attached to their so called names and descriptions, as I can be easily distracted!!
You shouldn't expect anything and should just let it happen and unfold.

Certain techniques to help you detach and focus a little can certainly help, but everyone is responsive in different ways.
Some people find it easier to focus on some sort of guide to help them move forward or Inward. Most find that a mental image of some sort or just a gurmantar like ''waheguru'' helps them achieve this. You can have a mental image of Guru Nanak or Guru granth sahib ji, or some gurbani even. The guide is not worshipped or anything, it is respected and used simpy as a 'guide'.
The rest just follows accordingly to everyone and at different stages.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

This is a 110% TRUE INCIDENT....no matter how difficult most of you will find to believe it...  
IN 2005 on my very First visit to a Remote Village in Nepal, I was confronted by an extremely old man ( maybe 100++) who asked me in broken Hindi..You are the person they call Gyani ?? Is that a religious person ? I said yes..but just how religious i cant say..his second question was..you came here on that small bird i see in the sky ? what they call havai jahaaz..bimaan ?? made of iron and flies ? I said Yes..You are a Liar and not at all religious he replied...how can a full grown man travel on that small bird ?? Lots and Lots of people said the same thing..that they also came in that bird..I was thinking that at least YOU being a Religious person..a gyani will tell me the TRUTH and not lie. Its Kalyug..everybody lies...he walked away shaking his head..Later I was told he is one of the oldest men here and has never left his house or walked till the end of his vlllage...not even to the next village..
Just as I failed to convince that old man that I had indeed traveled across 6000 km in an iron bird large enough to carry me and ten VILLAGES like his own..its very difficult to explain Dasam duar - open or closed..to many:singhsippingcoffee:


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## Rory

I love this board.


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## itsmaneet

I have not experienced the Dasam Dwar & i personally feel it's in the hand of Waheguru whom to honour this situation.

But i feel, any who experiences this can't tell it's conditions so confidently as been told by Bhagat Singh Ji above.

Sant Ravidas Ji Says - "Jab Hum Hote Tab Tu Nahi ... Ab Tuhi Mein Nahi". It's a very powerful thing said by Sant Ji. Before the opening of Dasam Dwar it's all me...me...and me ... but post opening it's allll YOU ..... YOU & YOU ...


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## Harry Haller

> But i feel, any who experiences this can't tell it's conditions so confidently as been told by Bhagat Singh Ji above.



thats the first thing youve said that has made any sense

lol lol lol


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## itsmaneet

harry haller said:


> thats the first thing youve said that has made any sense
> 
> lol lol lol


in other words, accordingly to you uptill now i have been talking non-sense ... that's what you think & feel amusing..it's shear ego ... isn't it ! ... 

but it's fine till am convinced with what am being talking about coz am not here to impress any including you 

Gurfateh !


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## dalbirk

IMHO opening of Dasham Dwar specifically means feeling the presence of God felt in your conciousness 24 hours a day . The sight of God in every human being & Hukam of God ( Waheguru ) in every happening good or bad accepting it in totality . This has nothing to do with Kundalini or Yogic postures as 3HO people wrongly propagate , or even a place just above your eyes behind your forehead as radhasoamis or almost tens of thousands Deras in India claim . Not a physical place but a state of conciousness , mental not physical .


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## Harry Haller

itsmaneet said:


> in other words, accordingly to you uptill now i have been talking non-sense ... that's what you think & feel amusing..it's shear ego ... isn't it ! ...
> 
> but it's fine till am convinced with what am being talking about coz am not here to impress any including you
> 
> Gurfateh !



apologies, its just my sense of humour, in the past I have written of the gems in your posts, and even thanked a few

Your posts always make me laugh a bit because you end them with 'isnt it' which is a very welsh saying in the UK (wife being welsh), lets have a hugmundahug


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## Archived_Member16

*Kundalini Surjhee Satsangat - Giani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen *

http://youtu.be/PDbGZSZ6myw


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## itsmaneet

harry haller said:


> apologies, its just my sense of humour, in the past I have written of the gems in your posts, and even thanked a few
> 
> Your posts always make me laugh a bit because you end them with 'isnt it' which is a very welsh saying in the UK (wife being welsh), lets have a hugmundahug


fine  mundahug


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## BhagatSingh

Lucky Singh ji 
Awesome post, I think you have done a better job talking about it than I. Please do share your experience of Dasam Duar if you can.


Maneet ji,


itsmaneet said:


> I have not experienced the Dasam Dwar & i personally feel it's in the hand of Waheguru whom to honour this situation.
> 
> But i feel, any who experiences this can't tell it's conditions so confidently as been told by Bhagat Singh Ji above.
> 
> Sant Ravidas Ji Says - "Jab Hum Hote Tab Tu Nahi ... Ab Tuhi Mein Nahi". It's a very powerful thing said by Sant Ji. Before the opening of Dasam Dwar it's all me...me...and me ... but post opening it's allll YOU ..... YOU & YOU ...


Did he say that confidently? :sippingcoffeemunda:

There's something in you that can understand Ravidas ji's words, there's a force that pulls you towards his teachings, they ring true to you, and when you contemplate them you can feel the joy of knowing his teachings and having come across them.


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## Luckysingh

BhagatSingh said:


> Lucky Singh ji
> Awesome post, I think you have done a better job talking about it than I. Please do share your experience of Dasam Duar if you can.


 
What I have learned is that it is the Guru's message that should be shared among us.
With regards to experiences and awakenings, I feel one get's the inclination to keep the personal message 'personal', as the scale for improvement for me in every aspect is huge.
 Maybe, when one is more enlightened or even Gurmukh, then it doesn't seem so personal!!


From the descriptions of lifting our tangling delusions as stated by 3rd-Nanak and being able to see more clearly through the 'wall of falsehood' as described by 5th Nanak in sukhmani,(as referenced in Soul Jyot's above post), I think this gives enough information that an enquirer needs.


As I mentioned I don't actually pay attention to feelings in the specified chakras or anything, it's just the love for the lord that remains the primary focus.
I do infact have a problem with my sensory perception due to an extensively damaged nervous system, so I probably wouldn't even feel where the chakras and openings were meant to be.

Besides, the dwaar is a metaphorical term that can't be located on the human body map!- But the mind and soul are also not to be located as such, however the mind (mann) is influenced largely by the brain. We are AWARE that it exists!!! 


The actual experience is no secret as such, but it is very personal and I think it affects us all differently to what and who we really are. What is important is that when it may happen to someone due to the Guru's grace, then one realises it is like a gate that get's permanently opened and you begin to feel humility and immense love for all that is around you.-I can't explain it much better... me personally. i always had thousands of question marks going around in my head, now there are very few of them. I wouldn't say I have more answers but I can definitely see the whole picture more clearly and less criticially.


I'm just a sinner who feels like he has been shown the way.
It is ALL in the hands of Waheguru when this realisation occurs, we should just make the effort to move forward or inward... and then let it be and let the Lord be.

That's why I think it is more important to share the Lord's message and the message of the Shabad Guru.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Its maneet Ji....
dont be so touchy veer..we are all Family here..harry Ji and myself are the resident stand up ( or sit down at laptop)  comedians here...its all in good fun only..not effensive by nay means...as you stay longer you will know SPN Family better..and then you will laugh along with us...


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## Astroboy

Daswan Dwar is a four-dimensional world where the Lord dwells. In that world a great, great great diva (light) is experienced. Before entering the city of Dasam Dwar, at its gates is the sky of the mind, a distillery which evaporates the true essence leaving behind the corrupted gross material. From the distillery the Amrit trickles down into droplets and fills into a huge well from which you are able to drink and quench your inner thirst, while the Anhad Shabad reverberates (Vajio) in the intuitive consciousness. Here the unseen Lord reveals Himself. Physical death is seen as a simple transition. 

There is no proof of this narration. So it is up to you whether to believe it or not.


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## BhagatSingh

Talking about Dasam Duar within the context of science.

Jonathan Haidt: Religion, evolution, and the ecstasy of self-transcendence - YouTube


----------



## jsteji1

Just read Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji with submission and reflection in Gurumukhi. 

Your objectiveness to reach a level of of Dasam Duar should not not be goal but in the understanding and application of Gurbani and this results in the blessing of devine understanding.


Guru Rakha!!


----------



## Luckysingh

When one can 'hear' that special sound of the shabad, then you know that dasam duar is there !!


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Luckysingh said:


> When one can 'hear' that special sound of the shabad, then you know that dasam duar is there !!



Long live, Jimmy Hendrix!!!


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Dasam Duar is the practice and experience of the individual and of the individual only. It manifests itself through one's deeds, not through any words/essays/lectures.

Living  like a  Grihasti- as discussed here  in another thread-  only happens through the Dasam Duar in my opinion. The rest is all nonsensical babble full of Me-ism. 

Tejwant Singh


----------



## findingmyway

The dasam dwar is not mystical but refers to the brain. The brain is the site of consciousness, integrating physical and emotional information and controlling how we behave both physically, morally and spiritually. Therefore the brain is the door to our consciousness. The Guru's always tried to make everything accessible to all regardless of their background so it doesn't make sense that such an important door should be so mysterious. Without a brain, spirituality cannot be accessed so we all have a dasam dwar. However, the choice is whether to open it to spirituality and a Sikh way of life.


----------



## Luckysingh

Tejwant Singh said:


> Long live, Jimmy Hendrix!!!


 
I'm glad that you noticed the humour in my comment !!!
Findingmyway has pointed in the right way to associate it with the 'brain' as well !!

From what I can gather, this is some part of us that is associated with neurochemical processes of the brain.
When you can align this with your God focused consciousness, only then can you experience the true essence!
This is what the religious scholars are actually referring to.
As one can still have dasam duar (activation) and be totally self absorbed atheist,agnostic..etc...

There are many people who have experienced these neurochemical processes without any association with God-consciousness.-YES, the example of Hendrix, Lennon..etc. using recreational drugs to get this.

FACT(I have gathered after researching many different sources)
- the same mystical sounds you can hear via dasam duar, can also be heard when you are on a trip of pure acid or LSD !!
Also note, that purer forms of LSD are rarely experienced with users after the late 80's. So the one's used in the hippy days were the ultimate experience. Therefore, there is no point in our younger readers to try and bother experimenting with nowaday street acid(lsd) !

Infact, this was one of the reasons why Lennon was interested in yoga and meditation, since he was realising that one should be able to tap into these same areas of the brain without any drugs !

Have you ever wondered what the ringing of bells and drums is all about in the white hippy hari krishna movements ?

All the recognition that your consciousness experiences is associated with memory and conditioning that comes via the brain !
I do also believe that your consciousness can be an entity on it's own and can exist completey away from the brain, but all it's experiences are still associated with memory!!
This is one important aspect that no one can actually define properly!


The mistake a lot of us sikhs make is understanding what gurbani and gurus talked about when discussing dasam duar.
We have to remember the 10th gate term was already coined by the siddhs and yogis, but the gurus took it to a different level.
There is no point in doing just physical yoga or taking acid trips to activate dasam duar if there is no God consciousness within one's self.
-This is where most of us don't seem to get the message !!
Alot of the heavy meditators know that their 10th gate is open from colours/sounds/visions..etc.. but if they don't have any 'DHIAN" on God, then there is NO Gurmat Gyan either.
Since a person that meditates very deeply doesn't mean that they are a God or waheguru bhagti. 
Because meditation does not mean simran.
Simran= Meditation with Waheguru 'DHIAN'

It really is that simple !!


----------



## Harry Haller

Luckysingh said:


> I'm glad that you noticed the humour in my comment !!!
> Findingmyway has pointed in the right way to associate it with the 'brain' as well !!
> 
> From what I can gather, this is some part of us that is associated with neurochemical processes of the brain.
> When you can align this with your God focused consciousness, only then can you experience the true essence!
> This is what the religious scholars are actually referring to.
> As one can still have dasam duar (activation) and be totally self absorbed atheist,agnostic..etc...
> 
> There are many people who have experienced these neurochemical processes without any association with God-consciousness.-YES, the example of Hendrix, Lennon..etc. using recreational drugs to get this.
> 
> FACT(I have gathered after researching many different sources)
> - the same mystical sounds you can hear via dasam duar, can also be heard when you are on a trip of pure acid or LSD !!
> Also note, that purer forms of LSD are rarely experienced with users after the late 80's. So the one's used in the hippy days were the ultimate experience. Therefore, there is no point in our younger readers to try and bother experimenting with nowaday street acid(lsd) !
> 
> Infact, this was one of the reasons why Lennon was interested in yoga and meditation, since he was realising that one should be able to tap into these same areas of the brain without any drugs !
> 
> Have you ever wondered what the ringing of bells and drums is all about in the white hippy hari krishna movements ?
> 
> All the recognition that your consciousness experiences is associated with memory and conditioning that comes via the brain !
> I do also believe that your consciousness can be an entity on it's own and can exist completey away from the brain, but all it's experiences are still associated with memory!!
> This is one important aspect that no one can actually define properly!
> 
> 
> The mistake a lot of us sikhs make is understanding what gurbani and gurus talked about when discussing dasam duar.
> We have to remember the 10th gate term was already coined by the siddhs and yogis, but the gurus took it to a different level.
> There is no point in doing just physical yoga or taking acid trips to activate dasam duar if there is no God consciousness within one's self.
> -This is where most of us don't seem to get the message !!
> Alot of the heavy meditators know that their 10th gate is open from colours/sounds/visions..etc.. but if they don't have any 'DHIAN" on God, then there is NO Gurmat Gyan either.
> Since a person that meditates very deeply doesn't mean that they are a God or waheguru bhagti.
> Because meditation does not mean simran.
> Simran= Meditation with Waheguru 'DHIAN'
> 
> It really is that simple !!



yes my dear northern brother, it is


----------



## chazSingh

itsmaneet said:


> I have not experienced the Dasam Dwar & i personally feel it's in the hand of Waheguru whom to honour this situation.
> 
> But i feel, any who experiences this can't tell it's conditions so confidently as been told by Bhagat Singh Ji above.
> 
> Sant Ravidas Ji Says - "Jab Hum Hote Tab Tu Nahi ... Ab Tuhi Mein Nahi". It's a very powerful thing said by Sant Ji. Before the opening of Dasam Dwar it's all me...me...and me ... but post opening it's allll YOU ..... YOU & YOU ...


 
"Jab Hum Hote Tab Tu Nahi ... Ab Tuhi Mein Nahi". It's a very powerful thing said by Sant Ji. Before the opening of Dasam Dwar it's all me...me...and me ... but post opening it's allll YOU ..... YOU & YOU ..

Beautiful, and from my own experiences very true.

I cannot be certain that dassam duar is open in me...because dassam duar is just a term in this physical world that is being used to describe this state of being...which we can probably never describe in language anyway

but many say that throughout the day or during Simran you will feel pressure, pins and needles like trickles on the top of your head..
others say you will see parkash - light of your soul, and hear the sounds of the shabad within you like drums, flutes, bells during meditation/simran

have i experienced some of these? yes daily in my simran/mediation, am i certain that dassam duar is open...nope.....do i care? no  i am merely a witness to things...nothing is in my control..all is in His control though 

But like the above...the sense of me me me starts to dissapear, and the feeling of all you you you (God) starts to manifest and all the petty argumensts you have in your life start to feel silly, having your sole aim of getting the best car or biggest house starts to drop down the list 

problem is when you have a wife that wants to argue with everyone, and your feeling the exact opposite...challenging indeed, but all part of our spiritual progression i would imagine

God bless ji


----------



## Luckysingh

Your whole attitude and perspective on life changes.
There is also a lot of confusion and overlapping with the terms of 3rd eye/dasam duar and kundalini. 

My own interpretation is that firstly the 3rd eye is the beginning and awareness stage.
Then I see kundalini as the ''knot'' between Maya and Mind, when you undo this knot then you begin to 'disassociate' with maya.
(NOTE- Kundalini is also represented as a serpent in many texts and important is the serpent in Adam and Eve mythology, which is about the awakening of this maya-mind knot!!!)


Then the dasam duar is the real goal/doorway to open by his grace!

My own interpretation from my own experience !!


----------



## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> Your whole attitude and perspective on life changes.
> There is also a lot of confusion and overlapping with the terms of 3rd eye/dasam duar and kundalini.
> 
> My own interpretation is that firstly the 3rd eye is the beginning and awareness stage.
> Then I see kundalini as the ''knot'' between Maya and Mind, when you undo this knot then you begin to 'disassociate' with maya.
> (NOTE- Kundalini is also represented as a serpent in many texts and important is the serpent in Adam and Eve mythology, which is about the awakening of this maya-mind knot!!!)
> 
> 
> Then the dasam duar is the real goal/doorway to open by his grace!
> 
> My own interpretation from my own experience !!


 
seems to be occuring in this order for me also 

do you feel the kundalini energy as well? for me (if it is kundalini) it's felt like subtle rushed of energy waves passing through me from the bottom of my spine upwards...
one one occasion though it was overwhelming and i couldnt move, but not scary 
note for other seekers... remove all expectation of experiences, go with the flow...sit in the boat of the guru, and let the will of God guide you...just be witness to it all and nothing more...be greatful if any experience occurs and greatful if nothing seems to occur...remove ego, and surrender it all to God.

God bless.


god bless.


----------



## Luckysingh

chazSingh said:


> seems to be occuring in this order for me also
> 
> note for other seekers... remove all expectation of experiences, go with the flow...sit in the boat of the guru, and let the will of God guide you...just be witness to it all and nothing more...be greatful if any experience occurs and greatful if nothing seems to occur...remove ego, and surrender it all to God.
> 
> God bless.
> 
> 
> god bless.


 
It is very important that one focuses on the actual waheguru simran and NOT the distractions of meditation.

There is the manmat approach on meditation which involves just trying to achieve intuition, control, riddi siddian, chakra activations, clairvoyancy skills...etc... and all that other crap that you can read about.
But for a sikh of the guru, the DHIAN must be on waheguru and the simran should NOT be about gain in any sense but PURE DEVOTION !!

We know of gursikhs that do their daily banis like clockwork and according to the clock- they think to themselves...''.Now,I will do rehras,kirtan sohila..etc... all in 25 minutes today'' and then they get going with their speed read!!!!!!!!!!!!
..WHERE THE HELL IS THERE ANY GURMAT DEVOTION IN THAT??????

Isn't it better to devote just a few minutes with no clock, no time issue, no timing, no counting of saying ''WAHEGURU' with NO OTHER THOUGHTS at all in your head and just pure devotion to the dhuni or sound of 'waheguru' vibrating within you ??

To me it makes more sense and more spiritually uplifiting to give just the word 'waheguru' some dhian instead of speed reading nitnem.

With regards to kundalini,- No I don't feel the rush of energies as such but that may be because I have nearly two dozen smashed vertebrae in my spine.!!!
Infact,I was one of those few who had the kundalini knot unfold mainly through injury.
When I first started meditation I was looking into Kundalini yoga stuff as that is all you can find when you first start. After a while, I realised that I had already had this awakening or rising without any self effort!!
I don't want to go off topic here, since we shouldn't mix and overlap them with gurmat simran.
However, I am enrolled to start kundalini yoga classes after next month to see what it is all really about.
I want to see and experience for myself what the truth is in this 3HO linked controversy.
...I will let you know what I encounter!!!


----------



## Luckysingh

An easier way in my personal opinion to put kundalini and dasam duar is that-

-Kunadilini is the breaking away from the knot between Maya-and-Mind.

A person becomes disassociated with the worldly entanglements quite easily.
Your aspects and view on life change and turn around completely.
Getting stuck at traffic lights or behind a trailer no longer increase your heart rate!
When your kids play up, you no longer get annoyed.
You don't get peed off when you just paid 300 bucks for a new tire and it blows out after a week!!!

This is just one of the stages in avastha and how it plays practically in every day life.

I'm pretty certain that Chazji has attained this as well.
The worrying thing is that everyone around you can begin to worry that something is wrong with you!!!
They feel that you have lost it a little since losing your wallet with your weeks wage worth doesn't get you so annoyed or frustrated !!
BUT- you have never felt better and in more control!
Infact, you look back and think how lost you really were before.

This is all what I feel the effects are of this so called kundalini awakening or early stages of avastha.


Then with Dasam Duar, which is the next level of avastha- it is simply a doorway!
BUT- the realisation coming through the door way is not what you think you see, but what sees you as well ???

-I would like to think of it as an early step of many further steps to ''God-Realisation''

This is when the ''I'' and ''ME'' begins to disappear.
The biggest realisation is that you begin to see that you are part of HIM and that it is ALL HIM.
It was Never you as you thought, but it was always HIM.

There is NO 'you','me','them' 'I'..etc.. it is ALL HIM.
*
THEN- the next stage where you really realise that it is a doorway opened by only HIM,- is when you REALISE that all the time you 'thought' you were searching to find and be with HIM. He was Actually LOOKING for YOU, thus NOW he has opened the door and found YOU!*
The SEARCH was HIS not yours.


----------



## chazSingh

> This is just one of the stages in avastha and how it plays practically in every day life.
> 
> I'm pretty certain that Chazji has attained this as well.
> The worrying thing is that everyone around you can begin to worry that something is wrong with you!!!
> They feel that you have lost it a little since losing your wallet with your weeks wage worth doesn't get you so annoyed or frustrated !!
> BUT- you have never felt better and in more control!
> Infact, you look back and think how lost you really were before.


 
glad you bought this up...my wife has a very short fuse...recently she lost herself to anger and hurled abuse at me for about 2 hours...what a beautiful test god puts before me to witness my own ego....and for the first time i felt no hurt, anger towards her, the need to argue back to prove my point...i just smiled back.

you could see her programmed mind of thought patterns having a little technical glitch...she didnt know how to react...she said "you're not arguing back...shall i swear even more...?" i said "yes, as much as you want to...let it all out" and smiled.

pretty soon after she calmed down...her mind had to re-evaluate everything...her ego wasn't getting the usual response back that it needed to continue arguing. her ego wasnt being fed...

Is a pretty cool feeling when you see this happen and see the ego as a seperate entity to 'Self'. 



> It was Never you as you thought, but it was always HIM.
> 
> There is NO 'you','me','them' 'I'..etc.. it is ALL HIM.


 
If He is all that truely exists...he obviously felt He needed to experience complete seperateness to himself via the Ego, in order to realise himself.

like being born in light, and then being sent to live in darkness, so that you can appreciate, understand, learn more and be aware more of the light.

we return home, knowing more about God, appreciation, understanding, awareness and oneness with Him...than we could ever have experienced if we didnt come into this experience of duality.

Just some thoughts i had recently 

God bless


----------



## satt

i dont think it happens a lot maybe to 1 or 2 blessed ones out of  billions over centuries, thats my view, just jap naam and leave it to guru ji, he knows whats best for us.

WJKK WJKF


----------



## Harry Haller

satt said:


> i dont think it happens a lot maybe to 1 or 2 blessed ones out of  billions over centuries, thats my view, just jap naam and leave it to guru ji, he knows whats best for us.
> 
> WJKK WJKF



I do not buy into what either Chazji or Luckyji describe, but that is more my failing than a reflection on them, however, I think we can take it that at least 2 people are well on the way, and that is just on this forum, so I think you possibly may be mistaken. 

As for naam japping and leaving it to Guru ji, this is not the essence of Sikhism, Sikhism is a proactive religion, we make the changes ourselves, we follow Hukam and we live the life that was intended for us to live. This requires discipline, intelligence, understanding. Simply hiding away and mumbling words and hoping for the best is not what Sikhism is about.


----------



## satt

harry haller said:


> I do not buy into what either Chazji or Luckyji describe, but that is more my failing than a reflection on them, however, I think we can take it that at least 2 people are well on the way, and that is just on this forum, so I think you possibly may be mistaken.
> 
> As for naam japping and leaving it to Guru ji, this is not the essence of Sikhism, Sikhism is a proactive religion, we make the changes ourselves, we follow Hukam and we live the life that was intended for us to live. This requires discipline, intelligence, understanding. Simply hiding away and mumbling words and hoping for the best is not what Sikhism is about.



Ok well i havent met the two individuals you refer to or any so far, but as far as mumbling words is concerned, if you call waheguru jaap mumblimg words then thats up to you and leaving it to Guru ji well he is the final judge or have you become that too! The essence/ hukam of sikhi is pyar,nimarta ,nishkam sewa and accepting gods will, not looking for rewards or judging others. the Dasam dwaar opens when he wills not us, your absolutely right being a Gursikh does require understanding discipline etc, but humility, love ,respect tolerance are also key to being a Gursikh, The Sant and sipahi concept not just sipahi!

I like many others do my best and do not judge!! but your comments sounds like you are judging people you have never met with comments like Simply hiding away and mumbling words and hoping for the best.

WJKK WJKF


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## Harry Haller

I have not posted on this thread as I have no interest in the tenth gate. 

God, in my view, is not sitting up in heaven making notes and judging all of us, this is not a test, we will not die and be judged, there is no judgement day, these are all Abrahamic concepts. Creation judges us, and Creation has more respect for actions than word repetition.


----------



## satt

harry haller said:


> I have not posted on this thread as I have no interest in the tenth gate.
> 
> God, in my view, is not sitting up in heaven making notes and judging all of us, this is not a test, we will not die and be judged, there is no judgement day, these are all Abrahamic concepts. Creation judges us, and Creation has more respect for actions than word repetition.



I dont agree with you on this, but you are entitled to your views, just like the rest of us. as far as God making notes LOL.

WJKK WJKF


----------



## Tejwant Singh

> satt;180876]but as far as mumbling words is concerned, if you call waheguru jaap mumblimg words then thats up to you and leaving it to Guru ji well he is the final judge or have you become that too!



Satt ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please elaborate what* "Waheguru Jaap"* means? Please use Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru as your guide.

When you say,*"he is the final judge "*, who is HE and this sounds like a deity which Sikhi does not have? Please elaborate  this as well with the help of Gurbani.

Is parroting words for hours part of Sikhi? 

If it is, then many other people from different religions also parrot, a mechanical ritual of repetition and use different words. Are they all wrong?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Luckysingh

> If He is all that truely exists...he obviously felt He needed to experience complete seperateness to himself via the Ego, in order to realise himself.
> like being born in light, and then being sent to live in darkness, so that you can appreciate, understand, learn more and be aware more of the light.
> we return home, knowing more about God, appreciation, understanding, awareness and oneness with Him...than we could ever have experienced if we didnt come into this experience of duality.


 
SPOT ON !!!
(I haven't said that for years- it's a little of my Manchester twang back in UK !):happysingh:
This 'Duality' is a huge part of the life equation.
I mentioned this somewhere else before about how we have to accept and acknowledge duality.
Like you say, you don't know what the LIGHT is if you don't experience DARKNESS !
But we have to remember and understand that darkness exists because firstly there was light.
First was GOD or the Whole Supreme GOD-consciousness.
Then came the rest of creation, which is still part of HIM.
In this manner, we and the whole of creation are NOT us, but we are HIM, the Creator.

With the Dualities of this world, we have to experience the Maya Illusion.
Gurbani often mentions 'crossing the world ocean'' which in effect is the World/Maya ocean, since this has to be crossed and swam through to reach the PURE TRUTH.

There are some that kind of reject all of this world/life/maya since it is a kind of illusion!
But, that is NOT why the Lord put us here is it ?
He didn't put us here to reject it because it is false and not real !
We have to REALISE that we exist within these dualities which we can only rise above if we actually recognize and accept them.
Once you recognize and realise their existence, only then can you start to chip away on the dividing line.
The idea is to be 'advait' and have no duality by conquering it and not by denying it.
For eg.. the Nirgun/Sargun aspects are there to accept.
-A Gurmukh accepts and sees no difference in Dukh or Sukh.
-A Gurmukh doesn't become 'NUMB' to these effects of dukh/sukh, but the Gurmukh   accepts them both on an EQUAL scale as part of his HUKAM.
-A Gurmukh has the same affect from suffering as from joy.
-A Gurmukh accepts creation and creator as ALL one.
-A Gurmukh rises above the maya illusion or world ocean to cross it, thus the Gurmukh rises above the dividing duality line to get across.
..........
................. I think you get the idea !!


----------



## Luckysingh

satt said:


> i dont think it happens a lot maybe to 1 or 2 blessed ones out of billions over centuries, thats my view, just jap naam and leave it to guru ji, he knows whats best for us.
> 
> WJKK WJKF


 
That's like taking your driving test without any lessons !
Just go and do it and then see what happens !!

SIKHISM is NOT about naam japping or wearing your 5k's if your conduct is NOT gurmat !
Sikhism is NOT a religion as such, since you don't have to be sikh to live according to Gurbani.
Sikhism is a WAY OF LIFE.

Life is NOT a game where you just give it your best shot and see what the judge decides.
LIFE is a GIFT!!

The funny thing is naam japping means something completely different to most other people.
I mentioned earlier somewhere that most people don't even have any devotion when they do nitnem!
The only devotion is their time allocation to sit and do some speed reading.
As for naam japping, most of these do the same-they don't have an ounce of heartly devotion, they are just devoting their tongue without any vibration of naam within and without any dhian or focus.

You have to understand exactly what you do and why you do it in sikhism.
If you have the attitude of ''just do it and see what the Lord decides'' then you are not living the sikh way of life.

In sikhsim you have to focus on your actions and conduct yourself according to gurmat and gurbani.
This focusing is 'DHIAN'
Then with this DHIAN comes and follows the GHIAN (knowledge).

That's a little of what I think of sikhism, in addition to what Harryji kindly mentioned.


A sikh doesn't have to practice manual simran and meditation to become gurmukh. But these tools are there to help you 'focus' if you need.
Some of us are strong enough to carry out gurmat conduct in our actions with the guide of Guruji and shabad, whereas some of us need something practical to help us focus which in turn can reflect in our conduct.
This is where you can use real naam jap simran or meditation.
But the naam jap simran is not going to get you sikhi brownie points, it's just going to help you focus in your day to day conduct.


----------



## satt

Tejwant Singh said:


> Satt ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Can you please elaborate what* "Waheguru Jaap"* means? Please use Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru as your guide.
> 
> When you say,*"he is the final judge "*, who is HE and this sounds like a deity which Sikhi does not have? Please elaborate  this as well with the help of Gurbani.
> 
> Is parroting words for hours part of Sikhi?
> 
> If it is, then many other people from different religions also parrot, a mechanical ritual of repetition and use different words. Are they all wrong?
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh



Did you not see the word Guru ji in front of he, who said anything about parroting, waheguru jaap ,naam simram, naam abhias, if u dont know what this is then stop lecturing us !!, also stop twisting people words to look good in front of your friends harry and lucky.


----------



## Tejwant Singh

satt said:


> Did you not see the word Guru ji in front of he, who said anything about parroting, waheguru jaap ,naam simram, naam abhias, if u dont know what this is then stop lecturing us !!, also stop twisting people words to look good in front of your friends harry and lucky.



Satt ji,

Guru Fateh.

Wow!

Why so much anger? Is this the result  of your Waheguru Jaap? 

Please explain all the terms you are using with the help of Gurbani so we call can learn from your wisdom and do it a bit calmly. Anger and wrath are not a Sikh maketh.

You are mistaken, perhaps because of your ire and anger rather than Sehaj. Asking question is not lecturing. Sikhi is based on questioning. 1429 pages of SGGS, our only Guru are filled with them. Make an effort to  understand them.



I hope to learn a lot from you. So, please respond in an honest manner without anger. One who seeks Nirbhau and Nirvair lives one's life sans anger and loathing. Hence, a Sikh has no one but friends and he/she always looks good among them.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## satt

Tejwant Singh said:


> Satt ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Wow!
> 
> Why so much anger? Is this the result  of your Waheguru Jaap?
> 
> Please explain all the terms you are using with the help of Gurbani so we call can learn from your wisdom and do it a bit calmly. Anger and wrath are not a Sikh maketh.
> 
> You are mistaken, perhaps because of your ire and anger rather than Sehaj. Asking question is not lecturing. Sikhi is based on questioning. 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru are filled with them. Make an effort to  understand them.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope to learn a lot from you. So, please respond in an honest manner without anger. One who seeks Nirbhau and Nirvair lives one's life sans anger and loathing. Hence, a Sikh has no one but friends and he/she always looks good among them.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh


 i AM NOT ANGRY , BUT IT SUITS YOU TO SAY THAT BECAUSE TWISTING PEOPLE WORDS IS WHAT YOU DO , YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING FROM ME BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU ARE VERY CHATTAR, LEARN TO THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK BECAUSE HURTING PEOPLES FEELINGS WILL NEVER MAKE YOU A GUSIKH , NO MATTER HOW MANY ARTICLES YOU READ OR WRITE, MAY WAHEGURU GIVE YOU MAT


----------



## Tejwant Singh

satt said:


> i AM NOT ANGRY , BUT IT SUITS YOU TO SAY THAT BECAUSE TWISTING PEOPLE WORDS IS WHAT YOU DO , YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING FROM ME BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU ARE VERY CHATTAR, LEARN TO THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK BECAUSE HURTING PEOPLES FEELINGS WILL NEVER MAKE YOU A GUSIKH , NO MATTER HOW MANY ARTICLES YOU READ OR WRITE,* MAY WAHEGURU GIVE YOU MAT *



Satt ji,

Guru Fateh.



> *YOU THINK YOU ARE VERY CHATTAR, LEARN TO THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK BECAUSE HURTING PEOPLES FEELINGS WILL NEVER MAKE YOU A GUSIKH , NO MATTER HOW MANY ARTICLES YOU READ OR WRITE, MAY WAHEGURU GIVE YOU MA*T





Who is lecturing whom but trust me, I am not offended by it.. I just find your anger hillarious and worrisome for your own sake at the same time.

Writing in *CAPS* shows nothing but *ANGER* on your part which is not the Sikhi way. I have no idea what is the reason of your anger and this hateful attitude.

Sikhi is all about interaction and conversation which also includes disagreements as part of the Sikhi marg of learning. So, please answer my questions in a Sikhi manner with Sehaj and thoughtfulness, not with anger and hatred both of which are against our Guru's teaching in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Let's start the conversation.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Admin

satt said:


> i AM NOT ANGRY , BUT IT SUITS YOU TO SAY THAT BECAUSE TWISTING PEOPLE WORDS IS WHAT YOU DO , YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING FROM ME BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU ARE VERY CHATTAR, LEARN TO THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK BECAUSE HURTING PEOPLES FEELINGS WILL NEVER MAKE YOU A GUSIKH , NO MATTER HOW MANY ARTICLES YOU READ OR WRITE, MAY WAHEGURU GIVE YOU MAT


*Admin Note: Please avoid using all CAPITAL letters in an internet forum post. This amounts to SHOUTING in anger! 

Thank you so much for your understanding. 
*


----------



## satt

Aman Singh said:


> *Admin Note: Please avoid using all CAPITAL letters in an internet forum post. This amounts to SHOUTING in anger!
> 
> Thank you so much for your understanding.
> *


Please forgive me as i had the cap locks on and did not realise until, i had posted 

WJKK WJKF


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh

> did not realise until, i had posted



You might have seen what you are typing  and we give the option to re-edit the post 

And so ends your Day 2 on SPN Mr. Satt. More later...


----------



## Harry Haller

@BhagatSingh  I know that BhagatSinghji talked about reaching this in a post once, a description would be capital, purely to learn from, not debate, you cannot debate a personal experience, 

If anyone else can shed light on this state, and what it means to them, I would be interested to read it


----------



## chazSingh

I for one won't be trying to describe such states of being...
Because...I struggle to comprehend myself ... never mind put into language some of the stuff simran has revealed...hence why I say it's mind blowing ..

I.ve often sat on the sofa for hours trying to understand what just took place...

And I don't even know if dassam duar is open...revealed or whatever...

There's a reason why Sri guru nanak Dev ji said we'd be stupid to even try describing this stuff...because it's impossible...

So I.m out  other than to say...this stuff is mind blowing...only words I find suitable lol


----------



## Original

chazSingh said:


> I for one won't be trying to describe such states of being...
> Because...I struggle to comprehend myself ... never mind put into language some of the stuff simran has revealed...hence why I say it's mind blowing ..
> 
> I.ve often sat on the sofa for hours trying to understand what just took place...
> 
> And I don't even know if dassam duar is open...revealed or whatever...
> 
> There's a reason why Sri guru nanak Dev ji said we'd be stupid to even try describing this stuff...because it's impossible...
> 
> So I.m out  other than to say...this stuff is mind blowing...only words I find suitable lol


....you're not the only *ONE* Chz, all those who experience are left with an awareness of "something" beyond the trivial material world. They express a feeling of having come into contact with a benevolent and divine "something". Their response to this is one of self surrender. Moreover, they experience a change in the emphasis in their life. They move towards a more spiritual, charitable and morally-aware state of being, characterised by a sense of awe and wonder at the "something". 

Nanak called it "divine love" ! That is, *anhad* [unstruck] *shabd* [sound] resounding indefinitely beyond the realms of the dasam dwar.

Enjoy the day -


----------



## Harry Haller

my question would then be how do you marry up certain words with feelings that cannot be described, how do you know you are in a state of Naam, or you are in the realm of the Dasam Duar? Surely one word should be sufficient to describe these states, as these states all seem similar


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## chazSingh

Harry Haller said:


> my question would then be how do you marry up certain words with feelings that cannot be described, how do you know you are in a state of Naam, or you are in the realm of the Dasam Duar? Surely one word should be sufficient to describe these states, as these states all seem similar



in all honesty...even if me and Original Ji use the same words...there's no way to know if i'm experiencing the same as Him...
We could sit on the same rollercoaster at alton towers, yet have complete opposite of experience...lol

The problem i have is there is a limited set of words...to communicate to the rest of you..i have to use them...and when i use those words...they don;t portray what occurs during simran...not even to me...

so....what do i do...other than, keep enjoying the ride...and inspiring others to enjoy also....and then sit in silence and smile at the marvel of the personal discoveries...

even reading over this doesn't make much sense....GRrrrr

Theres no door that says "Dassam Duar" on it as you pass through...or at least i don;t think so lol...
And Naam doesn't say "i am Naam" to you during Simran lol

But sometimes, you sit there and you just 'know' something really cool just took place...and it feel cool, and right, and just what you needed at that time...and there is no real need to name it or define it...it just is..
other times i'm in a state of "{censored}" - wife comes down in the morning, and i'm wandering around acting strange...wife asking if i'm ok, as i'm acting strange...and inside i'm thinking "what the shizzle was that all about (simran) .... just wander struck...

other times, i fall asleeep, drool all down my face, neck hurting... - no Simran or states of 'rememberance taking place there!

nothing in my Control.....can only surrender...

again that doesn't really make sense....sorry...


----------



## Original

Harry Haller said:


> my question would then be how do you marry up certain words with feelings that cannot be described, how do you know you are in a state of Naam, or you are in the realm of the Dasam Duar? Surely one word should be sufficient to describe these states, as these states all seem similar


..sorry for the delayed response, been really busy yesterday !




Harry Haller said:


> my question would then be how do you marry up certain words with feelings


..you can't ! mystical experience is qualitatively and radically different from our everyday conscious experiences. It's devoid of any sensations, concepts or thoughts as such and as a result, cannot be described or analysed in terms of having any of the elements of the ordinary consciousness. Thus, "ineffable".

Any attempts to describe or analyse would fail because our knowledge cannot transcend the categories which we employ in thinking about this experience. Our intellect and reason cannot penetrate. What distinctive vocabulary can the human mind conjure up if something is beyond its scope ? All the words and letters of all the alphabets in all the languages are the products of our sensory-intellectual consciousnes. At best perhaps, they can take us up to the 10th gate but not beyond because thereafter is timeless, spaceless and ineffable.

Chaz attempted to speak of the same and ended-up laughing out loud ! It baffles telling. The teller is left scrapping the barrel for the appropriate vocabulary to retell the event, which he can't because every effort made will be in vain. Why ? Because it is "metaphysical", meaning, beyond the physical world. 

What is beyond the physical world is the enterprise with which theology and indeed secular science is charged. And, that is why convention has classified certain categories of unknowable yet experiencable phenomena as "religious", precipitating as it were, the human consciousness to that end for its not knowledge but faith of the individual that determines existence of the "actual" experience. Sikhi, structures and captures the encounter of the inner experience with that grandeur, and choreography of the spiritual moment we call "mystical". 

The answers to the questions of the wandering mind are to be sought from our only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I'm like you H, have the knowledge but not the answers. Seek n yee shall find -

Love n live brother -


----------



## Kully

Harry Haller said:


> my question would then be how do you marry up certain words with feelings that cannot be described, how do you know you are in a state of Naam, or you are in the realm of the Dasam Duar? Surely one word should be sufficient to describe these states, as these states all seem similar



Bhagat Kabir says that asking people about this is like asking a mute person to describe something so sweet. They are unable to because of their physical handicap. But the meaning is clear, that people of exalted spirituality are unable to describe it. 

It may be that it is just as much a struggle to describe it, as it is to reach it.


----------



## Harry Haller

Gentlemen, I am not asking you to validate or explain a certain experience, read the question carefully, why do we have so many different names for so many different states, when they would appear to be all the same, ie, a personal, mystical spiritual experience. 

Thus the words naam, dassam duar, kundalini, etc etc make no sense as they appear to give the impression that the experience of naam is different to the experience of dassam duar, is different to experiencing your kundalini rise. 

When actually, these words seem to describe any experience out of the normal, which then begs the question, why are there so many of them? Clearly a spiritual experience cannot be categorised under these names, it is just that, a spiritual experience. 

It also begs the question for those that say they have opened the tenth gate, how do you know? how do you know your not at the peak of naam? how do you know its not the kundalini rising?


----------



## Original

H - for a self-confessed non-Sikh you're not doing bad ! definitely en route to becoming an amrithari King Singh next life, hey !


Harry Haller said:


> why do we have so many different names for so many different states,


...because they are different. It's that simple !


Harry Haller said:


> when they would appear to be all the same


..they may appear to be, but in truth are not the same !


Harry Haller said:


> ie, a personal, mystical spiritual experience.


..technically yes, definitionally no ! let me explain:
Take the *one* moon and its *countless* reflections in mutilpe water holes dotted around the planet. Whilst the reality is the "one" moon projecting as it were, countless images as truthful reflections, their existence cannot be ignored. Similarly, personal, mystical and spiritual are truthful reflections of the one ultimate reality, their existence is true, in that, they are unique and independent experiences.


Harry Haller said:


> Thus the words naam, dassam duar, kundalini, etc etc make no sense


..they are not suppose to make sense when using mindset of formal logic in the absence of spiritual maturity !


Harry Haller said:


> as they appear to give the impression that the experience of naam is different to the experience of dassam duar, is different to experiencing your kundalini rise.


...nam is different, dasam dwar is different and so is kundalini different. They are lexicons of a non-cognitive language, that is, they cannot be proved to be true or false through knowledge.


Harry Haller said:


> When actually, these words seem to describe any experience out of the normal, which then begs the question, why are there so many of them? Clearly a spiritual experience cannot be categorised under these names, it is just that, a spiritual experience.


..see above


Harry Haller said:


> It also begs the question for those that say they have opened the tenth gate


..consider the 10th gate as the stargate to the infinite, the world beyond. This is spiritual language based on a system of belief and not on intellgentsia. Again, the language used is non coginitive and seves little purpose for the speculative mind.


Harry Haller said:


> It also begs the question for those that say they have opened the tenth gate, how do you know?


..just as we cannot prove whtat our conscience tells us, but we know it nevertheless, so does the opening of the 10th gate occasioned by the adept when all is in accord with the cosmic spirit.


Harry Haller said:


> how do you know your not at the peak of naam?


...nam is the source and is infinite. It is dimensionless, timeless, shapeless - no property, quality nor quantity can be ascribed to it. It is an "existence" and has its being in creation.



Harry Haller said:


> how do you know its not the kundalini rising?


...the rose is called by many different names, has loads of different shades of colour, but its fragrance is uniquely one of pleasentness. And, so is the case with spiritual excursions albeit, in different disguises, but divine.

Goodnight !


----------



## Harry Haller

Original said:


> H - for a self-confessed non-Sikh you're not doing bad ! definitely en route to becoming an amrithari King Singh next life, hey !



I do not recall saying I was a non Sikh, I may have said I am not the same Sikh that you are, but I consider myself very much a Sikh. 



Original said:


> ...because they are different. It's that simple !



hmm different to the individual maybe, but it would appear your state of naam could be another's tenth gate. 



Original said:


> ..they may appear to be, but in truth are not the same !



unless there is a definitive state that we can refer to, they are just words. Three states that cannot be described, largely due to the fact that they are personal, do not deserve three different words. 



Original said:


> .technically yes, definitionally no ! let me explain:
> Take the *one* moon and its *countless* reflections in mutilpe water holes dotted around the planet. Whilst the reality is the "one" moon projecting as it were, countless images as truthful reflections, their existence cannot be ignored. Similarly, personal, mystical and spiritual are truthful reflections of the one ultimate reality, their existence is true, in that, they are unique and independent experiences.



Ok, lets run with the analogy, but remember it is yours not mine. 

The one moon, I assume is the tenth gate, the reflections are the many different ways that people perceive it. However the reflections may be distorted, incomplete and not a true likeness, a mirror image at best, but still an image. So if I ask about the tenth gate, if I ask you about what the moon looks like, you will tell me, and when I compare it to the moon in the sky, I see your description is completely wrong, the craters that you describe as being on the left, are actually on the right, everything you are describing is actually reversed on the true image. Therefore what weight can I give your description? and how can I learn about the tenth gate from more than one person, each description will be different, if I were to describe the moon without looking at it, and rely on say a dozen descriptions based on mirror incomplete images, I may well be surprised when I see the true moon. Perhaps if folks stopped pretending to know what naam, the tenth gate and rising kundalini is, and merely described their own image instead, it might make the situation clearer. 


Original said:


> .they are not suppose to make sense when using mindset of formal logic in the absence of spiritual maturity !



but they are words, so they are in the formal logic domain, two people who claim  to have opened the tenth gate could well be having two very different experiences, so the words 'tenth gate' mean nothing in the formal logic domain. 


Original said:


> ...nam is different, dasam dwar is different and so is kundalini different. They are lexicons of a non-cognitive language, that is, they cannot be proved to be true or false through knowledge.



well hang on a minute, your definitions of the above is different, and so is everyone else's, which rather renders the words as pointless. 



Original said:


> ..consider the 10th gate as the stargate to the infinite, the world beyond. This is spiritual language based on a system of belief and not on intellgentsia. Again, the language used is non coginitive and seves little purpose for the speculative mind.



I have no problem with this, although I like your choice of words, stargate to the infinitive.... 

What you are saying is that those in the know, will understand, what I am saying is that they won't, they will just understand their own personal experience, to be honest, your supporting my argument, to have one word that correctly describes a deeply personal spiritual experience seems pointless, unless of course the tenth gate is not a deeply personal experience, unless the tenth gate is a definitive description of something, but then what is this definitive description, so which is it Originalji, is it a standard experience or a deeply personal one?


Original said:


> .just as we cannot prove whtat our conscience tells us, but we know it nevertheless, so does the opening of the 10th gate occasioned by the adept when all is in accord with the cosmic spirit.



you mean when one is in consonance? According to bani, how does one open the tenth gate? How does bani describe the tenth gate? 


Original said:


> .nam is the source and is infinite. It is dimensionless, timeless, shapeless - no property, quality nor quantity can be ascribed to it. It is an "existence" and has its being in creation.



What then is a state of Naam?


Original said:


> ..the rose is called by many different names, has loads of different shades of colour, but its fragrance is uniquely one of pleasentness. And, so is the case with spiritual excursions albeit, in different disguises, but divine.



I will repeat my question, how can one tell the difference? May I ask you personally, have you opened the tenth gate, have you risen your kundalini, and have you experienced the state of naam?



Original said:


> Goodnight !


Good Morning,


----------



## Original

Harry Haller said:


> I do not recall saying I was a non Sikh, I may have said I am not the same Sikh that you are, but I consider myself very much a Sikh.
> 
> 
> 
> hmm different to the individual maybe, but it would appear your state of naam could be another's tenth gate.
> 
> 
> 
> unless there is a definitive state that we can refer to, they are just words. Three states that cannot be described, largely due to the fact that they are personal, do not deserve three different words.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, lets run with the analogy, but remember it is yours not mine.
> 
> The one moon, I assume is the tenth gate, the reflections are the many different ways that people perceive it. However the reflections may be distorted, incomplete and not a true likeness, a mirror image at best, but still an image. So if I ask about the tenth gate, if I ask you about what the moon looks like, you will tell me, and when I compare it to the moon in the sky, I see your description is completely wrong, the craters that you describe as being on the left, are actually on the right, everything you are describing is actually reversed on the true image. Therefore what weight can I give your description? and how can I learn about the tenth gate from more than one person, each description will be different, if I were to describe the moon without looking at it, and rely on say a dozen descriptions based on mirror incomplete images, I may well be surprised when I see the true moon. Perhaps if folks stopped pretending to know what naam, the tenth gate and rising kundalini is, and merely described their own image instead, it might make the situation clearer.
> 
> 
> but they are words, so they are in the formal logic domain, two people who claim  to have opened the tenth gate could well be having two very different experiences, so the words 'tenth gate' mean nothing in the formal logic domain.
> 
> 
> well hang on a minute, your definitions of the above is different, and so is everyone else's, which rather renders the words as pointless.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problem with this, although I like your choice of words, stargate to the infinitive....
> 
> What you are saying is that those in the know, will understand, what I am saying is that they won't, they will just understand their own personal experience, to be honest, your supporting my argument, to have one word that correctly describes a deeply personal spiritual experience seems pointless, unless of course the tenth gate is not a deeply personal experience, unless the tenth gate is a definitive description of something, but then what is this definitive description, so which is it Originalji, is it a standard experience or a deeply personal one?
> 
> 
> you mean when one is in consonance? According to bani, how does one open the tenth gate? How does bani describe the tenth gate?
> 
> 
> What then is a state of Naam?
> 
> 
> I will repeat my question, how can one tell the difference? May I ask you personally, have you opened the tenth gate, have you risen your kundalini, and have you experienced the state of naam?
> 
> 
> Good Morning,


Good morning H - I have early engagements today and will try n beef up discussion with little time available. In the mean time be good and take care - love you !

Original


----------



## jsteji1

Harry Haller said:


> @BhagatSingh  I know that BhagatSinghji talked about reaching this in a post once, a description would be capital, purely to learn from, not debate, you cannot debate a personal experience,
> 
> If anyone else can shed light on this state, and what it means to them, I would be interested to read it


Received this on 7/5/2016 
Dasam Duar. Difficult state to describe. If it is described it is false.  Just read Gurbani, meditate on it and then act and it is the ultimate state of being. But nothing to brag about or look down on others. Only thing, in my limited understanding, it is a state of ultimate humbleness and calmness in human form that cannot be disturbed by any magnitude of any kind of stimuli. It is not that a powerful state is achieved but in fact it the most powerless state. Such that a greatest degree of Virtues of Naam is understood.

This is not a goal oriented journey to Dasam Duar, journey is to be Guru oriented and a rare person is bestowed this blessing.

Guru Fateh!


----------



## Original

Dearest Harry - sorry for the long delay, been busy !


Harry Haller said:


> I do not recall saying I was a non Sikh


..you didn't ! you said something like, 'I don't think I'm even a Sikh'. This was said a while back when fists were flying, doors slammed and poor HKJ was at the receiving end !


Harry Haller said:


> I may have said I am not the same Sikh that you are


..yeah, I concede ! you're the modified and the latest edition. I'm out and you're in, thank God !


Harry Haller said:


> but I consider myself very much a Sikh.


*..wow *! if you consider yourself to be a Sikh then I'm the little red ridding hood dressed up as the big bad wolf enroute to meet grandma ! come on H -  it's not the subjective sense of the self that defines who we are, it's what we do that determines our *true being*. What is it that you do that defines the Sikh you ? Surely, not the human characterstics of compassion, empathy and the do good be good generics of the everyday jo blogg, for that'll be human nature and everyone is a  champion. No, it has to be something more fundamental and a specific measure of the word "Sikh" with which you can identify and acclaim being a Sikh, mere lip service is insufficent. That's like wearing Manchester United's T-Shirt and acclaiming to be a football player !


Harry Haller said:


> hmm different to the individual maybe, but it would appear your state of naam could be another's tenth gate.


..naam n tenth gate are two different terms. Where the former a "source" of all known/unknown phenomena [say God], the latter is a spiritual numerical coordinate on the human body, located between the eye brows around the front cortex of the brain and succeeding as it were, the nine known physical cooordinates, namely, ears, nostrils...and so forth. The world of nam is an existence which is "live" in the *physical *world, as well as, in the *metaphysical* world. Sikh spiritual is to an end where the "live" connection can be had in the metaphysical world [anhad shabd] by the adept in the physical world [here n now] by the grace of God [Gur Prasad]. Whereas, the tenth gate is considered to be the "stargate" to the metaphysical world, a coordinating point of entry to the unknown worlds of the soul. The spiritual travellers of the ancient past have named it "dasam dwar". In other words, a spiritual sign post saying, "welcome to spiritual excursions - hereinafter is the realm of the soul, the permanent home".


Harry Haller said:


> unless there is a definitive state that we can refer to, they are just words. Three states that cannot be described, largely due to the fact that they are personal, do not deserve three different words.


..tell me, what's north of the North Pole?


Harry Haller said:


> Ok, lets run with the analogy, but remember it is yours not mine.


Honestly speaking, it wasn't reasoning from parallel case [analogy] but more of a descriptive account, which is different from but analogous to the point in question, namely, personal, mystical n spiritual and why each must qualify in their own domain as independent of one another.


Harry Haller said:


> The one moon, I assume is the tenth gate, the reflections are the many different ways that people perceive it. However the reflections may be distorted, incomplete and not a true likeness, a mirror image at best, but still an image. So if I ask about the tenth gate, if I ask you about what the moon looks like, you will tell me, and when I compare it to the moon in the sky, I see your description is completely wrong, the craters that you describe as being on the left, are actually on the right, everything you are describing is actually reversed on the true image. Therefore what weight can I give your description? and how can I learn about the tenth gate from more than one person, each description will be different, if I were to describe the moon without looking at it, and rely on say a dozen descriptions based on mirror incomplete images, I may well be surprised when I see the true moon. Perhaps if folks stopped pretending to know what naam, the tenth gate and rising kundalini is, and merely described their own image instead, it might make the situation clearer.


..this was on my part a metaphor to show how "reality n truth" differ. That is to say, the moon in the sky at night is real but the reflections in numerious water holes on surface Earth are not real by the same measure of the word real. However, it is insufficenet to dismiss them as having non existence on account being mere reflections. Similarly, personal, mystical and spiritual, also qualify to be treated and studied as having independent existence. It was to this end a metaphor, I used.


Harry Haller said:


> but they are words, so they are in the formal logic domain, two people who claim to have opened the tenth gate could well be having two very different experiences, so the words 'tenth gate' mean nothing in the formal logic domain.


..can you draw me a round square or, find me a marriedbachlor; they are words aren't they ? What I meant was that the use of formal logic [linear cause n effect] is likely to create a paradox beacuse its intrinsically designed that way. For example, philosophers have argued, why create something [mystical experiences] and not provide language to express it ? Fair point ! And since, there is no short n curly answer but a conclusion that, since the organic relationship [expressing experience] exists in a dialectical setting, giving rise to as it were, 'this caused that...' one is likely to come stuck at a point in time where all sorts of reasoning collapes for not having a solid foundation in the first place, which by virute and defintion is a must for any logical calculations. That is to say, if one's starting point is something unknown [God], and one's conclusion and intermediate steps are made of the unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become knowledge ?


Harry Haller said:


> well hang on a minute, your definitions of the above is different, and so is everyone else's, which rather renders the words as pointless.


..no two observers of the one phenomena will have ditto results, why ? Because of their vantage point and since God is ineffable, all attempts to capture with words will be in vain.


Harry Haller said:


> What you are saying is that those in the know, will understand, what I am saying is that they won't, they will just understand their own personal experience, to be honest, your supporting my argument, to have one word that correctly describes a deeply personal spiritual experience seems pointless, unless of course the tenth gate is not a deeply personal experience, unless the tenth gate is a definitive description of something, but then what is this definitive description, so which is it Originalji, is it a standard experience or a deeply personal one?


The spiritual science of the soul has its own language just as grammer and science of letters have their own. And, just as you would learn grammer n science of letters from basics, so would you learn the language of the spiritual science as you progress and mature. And just as you can feel the breeze by sitting close to the sea and warmth by sitting close to a fire, so can you feel the spiritual vibes when sitting close to Sri Guru Granth Sahib - try it !


Harry Haller said:


> you mean when one is in consonance? According to bani, how does one open the tenth gate? How does bani describe the tenth gate?


..bani is spiritual ! and spiritual is something that cannot be found over the internet or in external observances, but within - Sikhism suggests various mechanisims - starting with basic human characterestics such as, compassion, empathy, etc and then preparing the mind to "listen" to the "guru". Thereafter, Guru Ji moves in and the mind is silenced forever, how ? The mind is but a spark of the big flame God and merges, ceases to be independent but becomes the enjoyer of the bliss that God is. Bani is music to the ears, light to the eyes, food for the soul and abode of Akal Purakh.


Harry Haller said:


> What then is a state of Naam?


..what is not a state of nam ?


Harry Haller said:


> I will repeat my question, how can one tell the difference? May I ask you personally, have you opened the tenth gate, have you risen your kundalini, and have you experienced the state of naam?


..you're a beautiful individual trying to make sense of it all. So did I once. I don't know kundalini and wish not to, I don't know the tenth gate but believe it so, I don't know a great deal others profess to know, but I'm happy not knowing. I am my Guru Ji's Sikh, that I do know and that is all I want to know. What I know today is what my mother taught me from day dot, "waheguru satnam" and that is what I have passed on to my children, no more no less.

As regards spiritual excursions, they are beyond explanation. What I experience and go through in life can only be found in SGGSJ. The only way to sum it up is like Bhagat Kabir Ji said, "even if the seven seas were my ink, all the trees were my pens and the entire planet my paper, even then I can only express an iota of your being my lord".

Have a good day ! Until then be good -

Ciao


----------



## Harry Haller

Original said:


> Dearest Harry - sorry for the long delay, been busy !


no problem



Original said:


> ..you didn't ! you said something like, 'I don't think I'm even a Sikh'. This was said a while back when fists were flying, doors slammed and poor HKJ was at the receiving end !



I am not a traditional Sikh, I do not believe in reincarnation, superstition and cosmic intervention, I am not a fan of meditation nor much of what you call spirituality, rather than argue that my beliefs are correct and yours are wrong, I would rather hold my beliefs and learn more about yours. I am however extremely interested in learning more about the role of the above in Sikhism, not for the purposes of rubbishing or arguing, but more for my own understanding. 



Original said:


> ..yeah, I concede ! you're the modified and the latest edition. I'm out and you're in, thank God !



not at all, I am a special edition, they only made one, I do not think they plan to make me in bulk, or perhaps I am one of the returns, one of those cute babies that speaks a mouthful of abuse due to a software error, I am happy to reassure you that you are still in, I, of course will never be in, as soon as your on the way out, do not worry, I will join you as the underdog. 



Original said:


> *..wow *! if you consider yourself to be a Sikh then I'm the little red ridding hood dressed up as the big bad wolf enroute to meet grandma ! come on H - it's not the subjective sense of the self that defines who we are, it's what we do that determines our *true being*. What is it that you do that defines the Sikh you ? Surely, not the human characterstics of compassion, empathy and the do good be good generics of the everyday jo blogg, for that'll be human nature and everyone is a champion. No, it has to be something more fundamental and a specific measure of the word "Sikh" with which you can identify and acclaim being a Sikh, mere lip service is insufficent. That's like wearing Manchester United's T-Shirt and acclaiming to be a football player !



I have rejected compassion, empathy and doing good, in my belief there is too much of the self tied up in such, in my belief, there is no compassion, no empathy, and no doing good, there is just the consonance with life, what is required of us is submission to the universe, to god, once done, our actions merely reflect our thinking in line with Creation and ultimately Creator. Experience has taught me that actions born out of far thinking, farsight prove better in the long run than short term actions encouraged by a sense of compassion and empathy. If you see a beggar crying in the cold and homeless, appeasing your own guilt by a short term action is pointless, get social services involved, take him to a homeless center, put yourself out and achieve a result, easier said than done, for sure, buying a Mcdonalds is far easier. I consider myself to be a Sikh because I am learning, and I am proud to consider myself as such. 


Original said:


> .naam n tenth gate are two different terms. Where the former a "source" of all known/unknown phenomena [say God], the latter is a spiritual numerical coordinate on the human body, located between the eye brows around the front cortex of the brain and succeeding as it were, the nine known physical cooordinates, namely, ears, nostrils...and so forth. The world of nam is an existence which is "live" in the *physical *world, as well as, in the *metaphysical* world. Sikh spiritual is to an end where the "live" connection can be had in the metaphysical world [anhad shabd] by the adept in the physical world [here n now] by the grace of God [Gur Prasad]. Whereas, the tenth gate is considered to be the "stargate" to the metaphysical world, a coordinating point of entry to the unknown worlds of the soul. The spiritual travellers of the ancient past have named it "dasam dwar". In other words, a spiritual sign post saying, "welcome to spiritual excursions - hereinafter is the realm of the soul, the permanent home".



thank you, you have explained it very well



Original said:


> .tell me, what's north of the North Pole?


the rest of the universe?



Original said:


> .this was on my part a metaphor to show how "reality n truth" differ. That is to say, the moon in the sky at night is real but the reflections in numerious water holes on surface Earth are not real by the same measure of the word real. However, it is insufficenet to dismiss them as having non existence on account being mere reflections. Similarly, personal, mystical and spiritual, also qualify to be treated and studied as having independent existence. It was to this end a metaphor, I used.



I can understand that personal, mystical and spiritual experiences are like reflections, without sounding twee, beautiful and real, but dependent on where you are standing. 



Original said:


> can you draw me a round square or, find me a marriedbachlor; they are words aren't they ? What I meant was that the use of formal logic [linear cause n effect] is likely to create a paradox beacuse its intrinsically designed that way. For example, philosophers have argued, why create something [mystical experiences] and not provide language to express it ? Fair point ! And since, there is no short n curly answer but a conclusion that, since the organic relationship [expressing experience] exists in a dialectical setting, giving rise to as it were, 'this caused that...' one is likely to come stuck at a point in time where all sorts of reasoning collapes for not having a solid foundation in the first place, which by virute and defintion is a must for any logical calculations. That is to say, if one's starting point is something unknown [God], and one's conclusion and intermediate steps are made of the unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become knowledge ?



is it possible such experiences were never mean't to be shared, like a personal view of the moons reflection, it is impossible to convey, it only seems to cause confusion. 



Original said:


> .no two observers of the one phenomena will have ditto results, why ? Because of their vantage point and since God is ineffable, all attempts to capture with words will be in vain.



absolutely



Original said:


> The spiritual science of the soul has its own language just as grammer and science of letters have their own. And, just as you would learn grammer n science of letters from basics, so would you learn the language of the spiritual science as you progress and mature. And just as you can feel the breeze by sitting close to the sea and warmth by sitting close to a fire, so can you feel the spiritual vibes when sitting close to Sri Guru Granth Sahib - try it !



I do not think the spiritual science of the soul has a language, it would seem it cannot be communicated.,surely what you are feeling is love?



Original said:


> ..bani is spiritual ! and spiritual is something that cannot be found over the internet or in external observances, but within - Sikhism suggests various mechanisims - starting with basic human characterestics such as, compassion, empathy, etc and then preparing the mind to "listen" to the "guru". Thereafter, Guru Ji moves in and the mind is silenced forever, how ? The mind is but a spark of the big flame God and merges, ceases to be independent but becomes the enjoyer of the bliss that God is. Bani is music to the ears, light to the eyes, food for the soul and abode of Akal Purakh.



From a pragmatic point of view, I favour 'do the right thing' which is not always what it would appear to be. I do however accept your argument as our Gurus had compassion and empathy, I think they had intelligent and far sighted compassion and empathy. 



Original said:


> you're a beautiful individual trying to make sense of it all.



No, I have given up on making sense of it, everyday I learn a bit more, every day something falls into place, but the goal is not as important as the journey. 



Original said:


> I don't know kundalini and wish not to,


pity  I have heard interesting things about it!



Original said:


> I don't know the tenth gate but believe it so, I don't know a great deal others profess to know, but I'm happy not knowing. I am my Guru Ji's Sikh, that I do know and that is all I want to know. What I know today is what my mother taught me from day dot, "waheguru satnam" and that is what I have passed on to my children, no more no less.



and you cannot fault that.


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