# Whom Are The Gurus Calling Shiv In Gurbaanee?



## Archived_member2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
I want to know why Sikhs are so confused.


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 7, 2007)

Guru ji is calling Shiv to Shiv only.. Who is confused ??


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 7, 2007)

krx plwh krih isv dyv ]    
 [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial]_  karan palaah karahi siv dayv.    
_[/FONT]  [FONT=Georgia,Tahoma,Arial]_  Shiva and the gods lament and moan,_[/FONT] 

iqlu nhI bUJih AlK AByv ]     
 [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial]_  til nahee boojheh alakh abhayv.    
_[/FONT]  [FONT=Georgia,Tahoma,Arial]_  but they do not understand even a tiny bit of the unseen and unknown Lord._[/FONT] 

pRym Bgiq ijsu Awpy dyie ]     
 [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial]_  paraym bhagat jis aapay day-ay.    
_[/FONT]  [FONT=Georgia,Tahoma,Arial]_  One whom the Lord Himself blesses with loving devotional worship,_[/FONT] 

jg mih ivrly kyeI kyie ]3]     
 [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial]_  jag meh virlay kay-ee kay-ay. ||3||    
_[/FONT]  [FONT=Georgia,Tahoma,Arial]_  is very rare in this world. ||3||_[/FONT]


Guru Arjun Devji in the Gond raag on Ang 867 of Siri Guru Granth Sahibji.


----------



## TGill (Oct 7, 2007)

*by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 291*

jb inrgun pRB shj suBwie ]jab n*i*rag*u*n prabh sehaj s*u*bh*aa*e ||qb isv skiq khhu ikqu Twie ]thab s*i*v sakath kehah*u* k*i*th t(h)*aa*e ||


----------



## Sherab (Oct 7, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
> ...




Shiva is Akal Purakh in heart, just like the ant to the elephant as mentioned in Benti Chaupai (I believe) by 10th guru Gobind Singh-ji.

Shiva relatively is Shiva.

Please understand 2 truths of absolute (Waheguru) and relative (our understanding and ou form).

WGJKK-WGJKF


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Quote from TGill Jee "Guru ji is calling Shiv to Shiv only.. Who is confused ??"
Thanks for the straight answer. May I ask why your statement has two question marks at the end?
By the way I am missing your smiling round face with your smart answer this time.
Knowing this is pleasant that Shiv is Shiv. Please share your wisdom of Shiv with all.

**************

Aad0002 Jee, I thank you for the wonderful reference from Guru Arjan Dev Jee on Ang 867-10.
 krx plwh krih isv dyv ]
karan palaah karahi siv dayv.
Shiva and the gods lament and moan, 

Please explain. Who is Shiv here, the Guru is mentioning? Is Shiv Akaal Purakh, Hindu Shiv or this word has dual meaning?

**************

TGill Jee, I am grateful for the Vaaks referred from Ang 291-3 from Guru Arjan Dev Jee.
jb inrgun pRB shj suBwie ]
qb isv skiq khhu ikqu Twie ]
When Nirgun Prabh sahaj suits then Shiv Sakat somewhere settle.
I thought when Nirgun Prabh sahaj suits then HE reveals Himself.
May I request for the guidance further.

**************

Quote from Sherab Jee "Shiva is Akal Purakh in heart, just like the ant to the elephant as mentioned in Benti Chaupai."
Please expand your explanation and oblige.

Quote "Shiva relatively is Shiva."
Is Shiv not absolutely Shiv?

Quote "Please understand 2 truths of absolute (Waheguru) and relative (our understanding and ou form)."
Many live with two truths (duality).

**************

In my observation, The true Gurus have used the word Shiv always in the same context.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Sherab (Oct 7, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> **************
> 
> Quote from Sherab Jee "Shiva is Akal Purakh in heart, just like the ant to the elephant as mentioned in Benti Chaupai."
> Please expand your explanation and oblige.
> ...



Balbir-ji,

God is present in all. Both in the small and large.

By "absolute" i refer to EVERY beings nature as God.

Relatively speaking, however, we appear different due to OUR duality, which is why we come and go in reincarnation.

Therefore, Shiva is God at heart (just as you and I) yet we are still human, due to our dualistic mind.

and by two truths i am referring to sue of RELATIVE truth, and inner truth of us as God.


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 7, 2007)

Balbir ji

Well, I always thought that most of the Adi Granth was pretty clear and straightforward. So my questions to you would be as follows:

Why would Guru Arjan Dev ji talk about Shiva in the Shabd, rather than to him, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh? Why would the blessed Guru describe Shiva as lamenting and  moaning like a distressed schoolboy who has not learnt his lessons, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh? And why would blesed Arjan Dev ji explain that Shiva had indeed not learnt his lessons and remains in persistent ignorance? Ignorance of the unseen and unkown Lord. Akaal Purakh would be All Knowing, not unknowing. So I guess Shiva has to be a Hindu god. 

As far as a double meaning is concerned:- Shiva is mentioned 122 times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, so it would take a few days to see what all the meanings might be. So that choice is too ambiguous to be the correct answer as posed in your question.

You only gave 3 choices, so I pick "b" a Hindu God.

Just my understanding of the Verses in question.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 8, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sherab Jee!

Thanks for your post.
Quote "God is present in all. Both in the small and large."
God is present in all. May I ask why one limits HIM after knowing Truth in the duality of small and large?

Quote "Therefore, Shiva is God at heart (just as you and I) yet we are still human, due to our dualistic mind."
Have I understood it correctly? God is Shiv at heart because He has no duality in mind.

Quote "and by two truths i am referring to sue of RELATIVE truth, and inner truth of us as God."
With how many truths one is living normally?

**************

Quote from Aad0002 Jee "Well, I always thought that most of the Adi Granth was pretty clear and straightforward."
Many people think that one needs to look like a Sikh and he comes to know the Adi Granth straight.

quote "Why would Guru Arjan Dev ji talk about Shiva in the Shabd, rather than to him, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh?"
I feel Gurdev is talking about Siv singing this Vaak. Gurdev is just watching the activities of Siv and describing those.

Quote "Why would the blessed Guru describe Shiva as lamenting and moaning like a distressed schoolboy who has not learnt his lessons, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh?"
The reverend Guru is not describing Siv as lamenting and moaning. This is the translator.

Quote "And why would blesed Arjan Dev ji explain that Shiva had indeed not learnt his lessons and remains in persistent ignorance? Ignorance of the unseen and unkown Lord."
In my view, the problem is reading the translations from people who need to know true Naam Simran. The best would be to enliven growing conscious mind with Naam.

This is that I have understood Gurdev singing.

krx plwh krih isv dyv ] 
karan palaah karahi siv dayv. 
Actions, results, does Shiv Dayv. 

iqlu nhI bUJih AlK AByv ] 
til nahee boojheh alakh abhayv. 
One does not resolve a tiny bit of the unseen and unknown.

Quote "Akaal Purakh would be All Knowing, not unknowing. So I guess Shiva has to be a Hindu god."
I feel in your sentence the word Hindu is superfluous.
God is in all Himself. God is the mother too. God is never a Hindu mother. Calling God a Hindu mother is the result of false preaching and lust to live in hate for others with ego.

**************

The Gurus transform human beings into true Sikhs. They come to realize God and all HIS activities. They may be Shiv, Vishnu, Brahm or any other.
Ignorant preachers who convert true God to Hindu in order to convert a human being to a Sikh mar the possibility of a human-being.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Sherab (Oct 8, 2007)

> Dear all and Sherab Jee!
> 
> Thanks for your post.
> Quote "God is present in all. Both in the small and large."
> ...


Balbir-ji, replies in bold.

PS. balbir-ji, please stop asking questions just to get them answered then debase someone's answer. It is rude, as you have done to Aad-ji.

I will be quite clear on this, you asked if we think Shiva is Akal Purakh or a Hindu god.

he answers that he thinks Shiva is a hindu god.

Your reply is that:

"_ I feel in your sentence the word Hindu is superfluous.
God is in all Himself. God is the mother too. God is never a Hindu mother. Calling God a Hindu mother is the result of false preaching and lust to live in hate for others with ego._"

Then why even ask if you had an answer to the view of Shiva as a hindu god?

All i see now here are games of circles so you can prove your own point. I will be leaving this thread.

Accha-ji, and many blessings on your path,
Surinderjit


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 8, 2007)

Sherab ji

Worry not. Of all the rudenesses I have met in life, Balbir's responses have never been rude-- just obscure. Now _______  is rude. But your compassion touches me and speaks well of you. Good you are a Sikh!

Balbir ji,

We  have many times, in many discussions, hearing from many people, worried over many translations by this one or that one. The problem never goes away. Why?

The bottom line. We are in something like log jam in the river of  verses by the Gurus. Most of the time you remark that every translation that we have encountered is wrong or probably will encounter will be wrong, and therefore no one knows what he/she is talking about. The only way to break out is to stop reading, writing and talking.

Now sometimes I think that is a good idea, actually! The cosmos is so noisy.

 But on the other hand, why bother to join a forum or start threads on a forum?  if most of it is nonsense then there have to be better things to do-- like meditate. 

Listen to God or Ask Questions? Talk to God or Answer Questions?

Just a little humor. Just defects of my munn speaking here.


----------



## TGill (Oct 8, 2007)

Balbir ji

Quote Balbir ji: Thanks for the straight answer. May I ask why your statement has two question marks at the end? By the way I am missing your smiling round face with your smart answer this time. Knowing this is pleasant that Shiv is Shiv. Please share your wisdom of Shiv with all.

- Why so perturbed balbir ji, don't like smiling faces these days. What happened to conjugal bliss? 
Thanks for thinking that my answers are smart. However I sometimes smile on foolish question and I forgot to do that this time.

- If you want to mock Gurbanee and Guru with these poor translations, its your wish... Sorry for three periods, just a typo

- Guru is calling Shiv to shiv only. I don't know why some need explanations


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 8, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sherab Jee!

Quote "All i see now here are games of circles so you can prove your own point. I will be leaving this thread.
Accha-ji, and many blessings on your path,
Surinderjit"

Please open the knot of love first. It is so fast. It is pulling me along with.

Quote "he answers that he thinks Shiva is a hindu god."
I feel that when God reveals HIM as the world or each part of it they know him as Brahma. As long as this world or each part of it exists, HE reveals HIM as the Sustainer, Vishnu. God allocates work to the whole world or each molecule of it and decides the results, giving births to Mukti. Then HE reveals HIM as Siv.

This is that Gurdev is expressing truth while singing.

krx plwh krih isv dyv ] 
karan palaah karahi siv dayv. 
Action, results, does Shiv Dayv.

**************

Quote from Sherab Jee "But on the other hand, why bother to join a forum or start threads on a forum? if most of it is nonsense then there have to be better things to do-- like meditate."
Great, someone has realized it.

**************

Quote from TGill Jee "Why so perturbed balbir ji, don't like smiling faces these days. What happened to conjugal bliss?"
I remember someone wrote that he does not have a begum. God may accompany him, heading toward HIS SayJ. This is my request to all the readers. Please pray for TGill Jee. 

Quote "If you want to mock Gurbanee and Guru with these poor translations, its your wish... Sorry for three periods, just a typo."
Please do not envy others. 
One may discard this awareness when God wants to bless him also. That is many are doing since eighty lakh joonies.

Quote: Guru is calling Shiv to shiv only. I don't know why some need explanations
Seeing your Smily smiling again is pleasant.  

Love.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 10, 2007)

it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God...

from japji sahib:

*gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

guraa ik dahi bujhaa-ee.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:

sabhnaa jee-aa kaa ik daataa so mai visar na jaa-ee. ||5||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||
* 
doesn't this say shiva is the same as guru?  and guru is god, right?  or is that a different discussion? 

or how about this?

Āpė siv sankar mahėsā āpė gurmukẖ akath kahāṇī. 
He Himself is Shiva, Shankara and Mahaysh; He Himself is the Gurmukh, who speaks the Unspoken Speech. 

Āpė jogī āpė bẖogī āpė sani&shy;āsī firai bibāṇī. 
He Himself is the Yogi, He Himself is the Sensual Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Sannyaasee, wandering through the wilderness. 
Āpai nāl gosat āp upḏėsai āpė sugẖaṛ sarūp si&shy;āṇī. 
He discusses with Himself, and He teaches Himself; He Himself is discrete, graceful and wise. 
Āpṇā cẖoj kar vėkẖai āpė āpė sabẖnā jī&shy;ā kā hai jāṇī. ||12|| 
Staging His own play, He Himself watches it; He Himself is the Knower of all beings. ||12|| 


God is unknowable, he can be anything.  he can be shiva, guru, the air we breathe...

i think it's pretty clear that gurbani uses shiva as both the hindu diety and as god.

at least that's how i understand it. 

gurfateh!


----------



## Astroboy (Oct 10, 2007)

Listening.*Shiva*, Brahma
and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

The Gopis and Krishna speak. *Shiva* speaks, the Siddhas speak. The many created Buddhas speak. The demons speak, the​demi-gods speak.

This is righteous living in the realm of Dharma. And now we speak of the realm of spiritual wisdom. So many winds,
waters and fires; so many Krishnas and *Shiva*s. So many Brahmas, fashioning forms of great beauty, adorned and dressed in
many colors. So many worlds and lands for working out karma. So very many lessons to be learned! So many Indras, so many
moons and suns, so many worlds and lands. So many Siddhas and Buddhas, so many Yogic masters. So many goddesses of
various kinds. So many demi-gods and demons, so many silent sages. So many oceans of jewels. So many ways of life, so​
many languages.

*Shiva*, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever
adorned by You, sing of You. Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door. The Siddhas in​
Samaadhi sing of You; the Saadhus sing of You in contemplation.

GAUREE, FIFTH
MEHL: Who can please You, except You Yourself? Gazing upon Your Beauteous Form, all are entranced. || 1 || Pause || In
the heavenly paradise, in the nether regions of the underworld, on the planet earth and throughout the galaxies, the One Lord
is pervading everywhere. Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, .*Shiva, Shiva..* O Merciful Lord​
and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. || 1 ||


GAUREE, FIFTH MEHL: First, they come forth from the womb. They
become attached to their children, spouses and families. The foods of various sorts and appearances will surely pass away, O
wretched mortal! || 1 || What is that place which never perishes? What is that Word by which the dirt of the mind is
removed? || 1 || Pause || In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain. The Realm of Brahma shall not remain
permanent. The Realm of *Shiva *shall also perish. The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. || 2 || The
mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars; the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire; day and night, fasting days
and their determination; the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. || 3 || The sacred shrines of
pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books; rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and
the performers of burnt offerings; wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods . all these, and
all people, shall pass away. || 4 || Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus; beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings
and creatures; the entire world and the visible universe . all forms of existence shall pass away. || 5 || Through the Praises
of the Lord, devotional worship, spiritual wisdom and the essence of reality, eternal bliss and the imperishable true place are
obtained. There, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Lord.s Glorious Praises are sung with love. There, in the
city of fearlessness, He dwells forever. || 6 || There is no fear, doubt, suffering or anxiety there; there is no coming or going,
and no death there. There is eternal bliss, and the unstruck celestial music there. The devotees dwell there, with the Kirtan of
the Lord.s Praises as their support. || 7 || There is no end or limitation to the Supreme Lord God. Who can enbrace His
contemplation? Says Nanak, when the Lord showers His Mercy, the imperishable home is obtained; in the Saadh Sangat, you​
shall be saved. || 8 || 4 || _(SGGS 237)_


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 11, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Kelly_kaur Jee!

Quote "it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God..."
Please provide one reference where the reverend Gurus have written once 'Hindu God', 'Hindu Gods' or 'Hindu Shiv'. I will be grateful.

Balbir Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 11, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Please provide one reference where the reverend Gurus have written once 'Hindu God', 'Hindu Gods' or 'Hindu Shiv'. I will be grateful.
> 
> Balbir Singh


 

sorry, i don't get your point...  guru sahib mentions shiva as one of many gods multiple times, these shabads have been quoted by others in this thread.  why is the word "hindu" so important to you?  you know very well that in guru sahib's time the only local religion that involved many gods was what we commonly call hinduism (or sanatan dharma, or whatever you want to call it).

if you take exception to my choice of words, just say so, please don't play games asking for quotes you know do not exist.

i'm sorry if i've said something to offend you.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 11, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Kelly_kaur Jee!

The true Gurus never use the words like 'Hindu God', 'Hindu Gods' or 'Hindu Shiv'.
May I ask why did you write "it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God..."
Also, the reverend Gurus never use a word that has dual meaning. 

Quote "guru sahib mentions shiva as one of many gods multiple times,"
The Gurus also do not write that Shiv is one of many Gods. At least I have not found it once.

Quote "please don't play games asking for quotes you know do not exist."
Please do not add the word 'Hindu' before God. The Gurus have also never done it.
Only the preachers seem to have the permission from their teachers to do so.

Quote "i'm sorry if i've said something to offend you."
You have not done it.

**************

This is Kalijug. People visit Gurudwara to listen. They find preachers speaking there. When will they listen, the true Guru?


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 12, 2007)

bin bhagan satsang na labhe...
How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?

It's better not to explain shiv. The name is not important, the manifestation is ! And it is all God's manifestations but whoever comes to know this fact only he knows shiv.

So its better to know who shiv is than to ask others what they think of it ! 

Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 12, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?"
I have heard that meeting with God is possible only through the true Guru. Since when meeting with the true Guru is possible through a preacher?

Quote "It's better not to explain shiv."
Knowing why the Gurus are singing Shiv would be interesting.

Quote "The name is not important, the manifestation is !"
To realize the importance of the name one must experience it through the true Guru. Borrowed information does not help.
The manifestation is important for the worshipers of sculptures.

Quote "And it is all God's manifestations but whoever comes to know this fact only he knows shiv."
It may take many eighty four-lakh joonies to know all or one comes to know truth of One Naam in this life.

Quote "So its better to know who shiv is than to ask others what they think of it !"
Better get straight with your mind. Should one come to know all God's manifestations first and realize Shiv. Or he should come to know Shiv first to realize all God's manifestations.

Quote "Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach."
Please ask God. Why His Show is running?


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 12, 2007)

Hi Balbir ji

My Quote: "Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach."
Your Quote: Please ask God. Why His Show is running?

- What is the correlation? By the way, God is not running the show, he is playing it !! One comes to know it when the time comes, otherwise he preaches like you and me.


My Quote: "So its better to know who shiv is than to ask others what they think of it !"
Your Quote: Better get straight with your mind. Should one come to know all God's manifestations first and realize Shiv. Or he should come to know Shiv first to realize all God's manifestations.

- Again whats the relation between my quote and yours . I said come to know shiv, it is better than asking others, right! 
However, what is the difference in your statements. Both will happen simultaneously, isn't it? 


My quote: "And it is all God's manifestations but whoever comes to know this fact only he knows shiv."
Your quote: It may take many eighty four-lakh joonies to know all or one comes to know truth of One Naam in this life.

- True, but depending upon what, us or his grace ?


My quote: "It's better not to explain shiv."
Your quote: Knowing why the Gurus are singing Shiv would be interesting.

- Whom do you think Guruji is explaining shiv to by singing?


My Quote: "The name is not important, the manifestation is !"
Your Wuote: To realize the importance of the name one must experience it through the true Guru. Borrowed information does not help.
The manifestation is important for the worshipers of sculptures.

- Right, so lets come to know it, borrowed info doesn't work.


My Quote: "How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?"
I have heard that meeting with God is possible only through the true Guru. Since when meeting with the true Guru is possible through a preacher?

- Exactly my point. So lets stop preaching


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 12, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> May I ask why did you write "it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God..."
> Also, the reverend Gurus never use a word that has dual meaning.
> 
> Quote "guru sahib mentions shiva as one of many gods multiple times,"
> The Gurus also do not write that Shiv is one of many Gods. At least I have not found it once.


 
here we have shiva as guru.

Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā&shy;ī.
The Guru is *Shiv*a, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

but here we see shiva is affected by maya, which means he is clearly NOT guru.

Barahmā bisan mahės ṯarai guṇ sir ḏẖanḏẖai lā&shy;i&shy;ā.
Brahma, Vishnu and *Shiv*a, under the influence of the three dispositions, were put to their tasks.

also note that here we have shiva as a created being, and clearly part of the "hindu" trinity.  (no guru did not say hindu, i did.)  again, in this line shiva is clearly NOT guru.

Pavaṇ pāṇī agan ṯin kī&shy;ā barahmā bisan mahės akār.
He created air, water and fire, Brahma, Vishnu and *Shiv*a - the whole creation.

here we see that those who follow shiva are on the wrong path.  how can that be true if the guru and shiva are the same?  unless guru sahib is using the name shiva in different context, in different meanings?

Īsar barahmā sėvḏė anṯ ṯinĥī na lahī&shy;ā.
Those who serve *Shiv*a and Brahma do not find the limits of the Lord.

please enlighten me.  i have always thought that gurbani was full of allegory and referred to the current mythology in order to be more easily understood by the people.  it seems i'm wrong?  i'd love to learn more.

thanks,
kelly


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 12, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

I like your Smily. These are two of your sentences where the Smily is smiling for you.

Quote "However, what is the difference in your statements. Both will happen simultaneously, isn't it?"
Is someone waiting for the future to happen?

Strange, those who are waiting for the future write "It's better not to explain shiv."
Those who have realized Shiv are singing.

ਭਾਉ ਨ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਾ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ॥ 
भाउ न भगती ना सिव सकती ॥
"bhaa-o na bhagtee naa siv saktee." SGGS Ang 1036-4

ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
सिव सकती घरि वासा पाइआ ॥
"siv saktee ghar vaasaa paa-i-aa." SGGS Ang 1027-1


Your Quote is "How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?"
My Query is "I have heard that meeting with God is possible only through the true Guru. Since when meeting with the true Guru is possible through a preacher?"
Your Answer is "Exactly my point. So lets stop preaching."
My Observation is "Some go on suggesting others. Please wear a pullover. I am feeling cold."


Balbir Singh


----------



## Astroboy (Oct 12, 2007)

Quoted by Kelly, 
"Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā&shy;ī.
The Guru is *Shiv*a, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi."

There is another English translation on this line:

Guru replaces Ishvar, Vishnu Brahma and Mai Parbati.

In other words, Guru becomes everything in devotion.

Quoted by Kelly,
"Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach."

Quoted by TGill,
So lets stop preaching 

I fully agree with both Kelly and TGill.

No one of above another in SPN. We should all act in sincerity. No one likes to be cornered and faced with twisted questioning. 
If true Guru is necessary, then come straight to the point - discuss what is true guru.

begum


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 12, 2007)

recheck my post, i never said anything about preaching.

thanks.


----------



## Astroboy (Oct 12, 2007)

*correction*, that was TGill's quote. Sorry for the mix up.

begum


----------



## drkhalsa (Oct 12, 2007)

Thanks Balbir Singh Ji and others for the disscusion and posts 

It helps give my mind a stir and that for good


What I think is GOD is not something Objective or object in any sense so in other words cant be described in direct sense 

So the other way is the using the attributes of GOD to describe or talk about it 

Shiv is in similar fashion Attribute of God that described in simple language denotes the return of Manifested to unmenifested or destruction/death something like that 

So in real sense cant be HINDU or SIKH god , although we use such statement in language and writing based on historical use of the term SHIV


Thanks


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 12, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Kelly_kaur Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful references from Guru Naanak Dev Jee.
Gurdev is explaining me this way.

Reference from Gurdev is "gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee." SGGS Ang 2-9
Guru is Eesar. The guru is Gorakh, Barmaa. The guru is the Paarbatee mother.

Sikh preachers plead. Naanak is the Guru.
Guru Naanak Jee is confirming that the Guru is Eesar, Gorakh, Barmaa and Mother Paarbatee.
God blesses one. He meets, listens and understands Gurdev.

**************

Quote "but here we see shiva is affected by maya, which means he is clearly NOT guru."

Reference from Gurdev is "barahmaa bisan mahays tarai gun sir DhanDhai laa-i-aa." SGGS Ang 509-10
Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh three Attributes are assigned in the row.

I do not know which words here are saying that Shiv is affected by Maya, which means he is clearly not the guru.

**************

Quote "also note that here we have shiva as a created being, and clearly part of the "hindu" trinity. (no guru did not say hindu, i did.) again, in this line shiva is clearly NOT guru."

Reference from Gurdev is "pavan paanee agan tin kee-aa barahmaa bisan mahays akaar." SGGS Ang 504-1
Air, Water, Fire HE did Brahmaa, Vishnu, Mahesh and Forms.

This holy Vaak from Gurdev is also not saying that Shiv is Hindu or he is clearly not the guru.

**************

Quote "here we see that those who follow shiva are on the wrong path. how can that be true if the guru and shiva are the same? unless guru sahib is using the name shiva in different context, in different meanings?"

Reference from Gurdev is "eesar barahmaa sayvday ant tinHee na lahee-aa." SGGS Ang 516-15
Eesar and Brahmaa serve. They also did not find the end.

The reverend Gurus often sing. Nobody has found HIS End including the Gurus.

**************

Quote "please enlighten me. i have always thought that gurbani was full of allegory and referred to the current mythology in order to be more easily understood by the people. it seems i'm wrong? i'd love to learn more."
Gurbaanee is Truth to enliven. It is possible only with the growth of consciousness through True Naam Simran.
Nobody can enliven Gurbaanee by analyzing Guru's words.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 12, 2007)

apparently the english translations i have read are incorrect.  thank you for sharing your translations with me.

gurfateh.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 12, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Thanks Balbir Singh Ji and others for the disscusion and posts
> 
> It helps give my mind a stir and that for good
> 
> ...


 
yes, i agree completely.  i don't think i have been able to articulate this clearly.   agreed, we use known attributes to describe God who is unknowable.  that's all i was trying to say.


----------



## seeking truth (Oct 13, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
> ...


sat sri akaal to everyone,
guru jee clearly says in Chaupayee Sahib the (mahandev ko kehat sada shiv nirankar kaa cheenat neh bhen) means people are saying mahandev as shiva but guru jee's are clearly saying shiva to almighty waheguru not to hindu's shiva(mahandev)


----------



## Sikh80 (Oct 14, 2007)

Dear Sir,
It has also been stated in SGGS ji that even Shiva cannot attain Naam/God. It is obvious that shiv is not God  as per gurbani


----------



## Randip Singh (Oct 14, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
> ...



My understanding is that the word Shiv is used in two context in Dasam Granth.

In one respect describing another word for God (that a Hindu audience would understand).

In another it is directlt refring yto Shiv and a Hindu God.

PS Note Guruji states that Shiv ji becomes a victim of "Kaal".


----------



## dilpuri (Oct 14, 2007)

Gur Fateh Ji,
        I want to clear that Shiv, Ram and Murari and many more are the names of Akal Purkah. What I feel I can call god by any name, only thing involved is the sense where the word is used.
Shiv,Ram and Murari etc might has used in both ways some times for for shiv ji, Ram Chander Ji and for Krishan Ji.
These powers were go great that there was no difference in Akal Purkh and these people. Like in Tuk
Har Harjan Doi Ek hein Vibh Vichar kichu naihen.
Like in Tu deho shiva bar Mohe Ihe.
Here it refered to Akal Purkah where in above tuk _karan palaah karahi siv dayv _
_It is clear that shiv world is for Shiv Ji._
_We have to look for the sense_


----------



## dilpuri (Oct 14, 2007)

dilpuri said:


> Gur Fateh Ji,
> I want to clear that Shiv, Ram and Murari and many more are the names of Akal Purkah. What I feel I can call god by any name, only thing involved is the sense where the word is used.
> Shiv,Ram and Murari etc might has used in both ways some times for for shiv ji, Ram Chander Ji and for Krishan Ji.
> These powers were go great that there was no difference in Akal Purkh and these people. Like in Tuk
> ...


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

All is God. We are HIS Sarguna Saroop. God's Sarguna Saroop comes into existence with HIS Will. It sustains and merges again in God.
The shiv is God's Attribute that comes into existence to fulfill HIS Will in a certain way. It also takes birth at first and merges into God at the end. Nothing remains after whole existence merges into God back.
Only God remains.

Contemplating this one may read any Vaak from Gurbaanee. He may understand it that Shiv is the same always. 
To realize Shiv, one needs to grow at conscious mind by true Naam Simran.


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 15, 2007)

Hi Balbir ji
I'm sorry but I have few questions if you don't mind. I'm not being sarcastic unlike I usually am. 

- What is the meaning of Sarguna.. Heard this word a lot but whenever I hear it I doze off. I promise this time I won't.
- What attribute of God does Shiva represent ?


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "Hi Balbir ji"
Hi Hi TG ill Jee

Quote "I'm sorry but I have few questions if you don't mind."
Why should someone else mind it when you have questions and feel sorry?

Quote "I'm not being sarcastic unlike I usually am."
Some Jeevs claim they can change colors.

Question "What is the meaning of Sarguna."
'Sa' means 'sah' with. For example sahpaathee means a classmate.
'R' means active energy. 
'Guna' means quality, characteristic, property, worth, distinction, talent etc.
Sarguna means with active Gunas.

Quote "What attribute of God does Shiva represent ?"
God's Attributes as Shiv are unaccountable.
One is not only living every moment. One is dying every moment too while continuing with every moment. One is also separating from every moment.
Perhaps you wish to find out what is Shiv behind those.
Please come to know true Simran.


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 15, 2007)

Hey thanks Balbir ji... that was a pretty creative salutation.. you can use it whenever you feel angry. Might be helpful ! 

Quote: Perhaps you wish to find out what is Shiv behind those. Please come to know true simran.

- Thats what I said earlier, better not explain shiv, you won't be able to explain it ! Lets come to know true simran.
- Everyone said the same thing that you said now, I can't find a single difference.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "Hey thanks Balbir ji... that was a pretty creative salutation.. you can use it whenever you feel angry. Might be helpful !"
I overlooked your salutation in one previous post where you used the non Sikh style of greeting too.
So I feel quit to greet you also twice with 'Hi'. I hope you do not feel ignored now.

They should learn from the Guru's mouth Gurmukhi first who want to forget saying Satsriakaal later.

Quote "Thats what I said earlier, better not explain shiv, you won't be able to explain it !"
Thank God. Truth is the same, unexplainable.
Perhaps some may agree that the true Gurus are singing HIM still.

Quote "Lets come to know true simran."
I wish you and your world much luck.

Quote "Everyone said the same thing that you said now, I can't find a single difference."
Some live truth. Others live comparing and prejudicing.
You understood it. I hope it remains.


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 15, 2007)

hi Balbir ji ...

would like to say this in your style only cos some people get stereotyped.

- Where has the true guru told us to use satsriakaal as salution. Yet some keep on saying it without even knowing what they are saying... Please provide one reference where true guru has told us to use this salutation. I will be grateful.


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "hi Balbir ji ..."
Hey hi TG ill Jee

Quote "would like to say this in your style only cos some people get stereotyped."
Why do you want to say it in my style?

Quote "Where has the true guru told us to use satsriakaal as salution."
God greets the Gurus with HIS Wisdom. The Gurus begin to say 'Sat', 'Sri' and 'Akaal' as salutation merging in HIM.
I salute my Gurus who are passing on this Wisdom and say 'SatSriAkaal'.
Have you any problem with it? It may not be your life though.

Quote "Yet some keep on saying it without even knowing what they are saying."
Better send complaints to your Dad, the Knower of all.

Quote "Please provide one reference where true guru has told us to use this salutation. I will be grateful."
Please listen. Continuously HE is saying Sat Sri Akaal.
Have you still not heard HIM saying Sat Sri Akaal?


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 15, 2007)

May akaal bless you !! Have fun...


----------



## TGill (Oct 15, 2007)

I hope your Gurus haven't told you to say this "Better send complaints to your Dad, the Knower of all" to a person not even half your age. 

Let's come to know true simran first Balbir Singh ji... Don't get your blood pressure all shooting up... it kills !!


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Has the distant diagnostician anything to say about the topic "Whom are the Gurus calling Shiv in Gurbaanee?"


Balbir Singh


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 15, 2007)

what is "true" simran?

what are its "properties"

how is it different from "false" simran?

who knows difference in "truth" and "false"?

who can judge if someone claiming knowledge of "true" and "flase" is correct or not?

what is the "the truth"?

what is "relative truth"?

what is the "reference point" ?

these are some of the questions popping in my mind right now.


----------



## TGill (Oct 16, 2007)

Hey welcome back Amar ji. Really nice to see your post again....

I don't think anyone can ever explain the answers to these questions though some preacher keep on trying to do it !! ... 

- Balbir ji - going to mom and dad is easy, knowing truth of shiv is hard... I am happy you are atleast good at doing the easy part...


----------



## Archived_member2 (Oct 16, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "I hope your Gurus haven't told you to say this 'Better send complaints to your Dad, the Knower of all' to a person not even half your age."
My Guru tells wisdom does not care about age but Wisdom cares God's Hukam. It does not penetrate in half minded state (Ardh Chetan Avasthaa). 

Quote "I don't think anyone can ever explain the answers to these questions though some preacher keep on trying to do it !!"
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee goes on singing the truth of Simran, how to receive it and its properties.
Strange, many feel they do not grasp the Guru's words.
Please listen. The Guru is singing in ecstasy, not preaching.

I have heard that God created the world from the mud in ears.
God reveals when true Naam removes this mud from ears.

Quote "Balbir ji - going to mom and dad is easy, knowing truth of shiv is hard... I am happy you are atleast good at doing the easy part..."
This is the Great Grand Dad's Grace. HE sings songs of Shiv through all. Still some say knowing truth of Shiv is hard, going to mom and dad is easy.


Balbir Singh


----------



## TGill (Oct 16, 2007)

Quite ludicrous.. You wrote to me or your own self. Please read your post again !


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 16, 2007)

TGill ji

Actually, I may for the first time understand what Balbir ji is saying. For once. Cannot be certain 

Balbir ji, it seems as if you were cut out to talk in poetic form -- sounds cryptic and not cryptic at the same time. Keep on going. I will be in touch.


----------

