# Religion - A Shroud For Evil



## makkanz (Oct 9, 2007)

Is religion a shroud for people to commit evil or immoral acts but then use their faith (and the fact that they actively exercise their faith) to comfort themselves in believing it is ok?

I would like to ask this question. This applies to all religions. Here are some examples:

1) A suicide bomber blows up themselves and a number of people e.g. Iraq, Israel, pakistan

2) A person who prays on a regular basis but is happy to claim the unemployment benefit while having a regular income (e.g. Taxi etc)

3) A father who marries off his daughter when they find out there might be someone else. 

I ask the last question because it is relevant to me. If you look at my other thread you will see why i am asking this question. How is number 3 different from people selling off slaves in sexual slavery? Is it not also something against a person's will? How can someone use their faith and their beliefs to justify an evil act such as this? This happens everywhere i know, especially in Islam but i would like to pose this question here as well and I would like some honest answers.


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2007)

makkanz ji, No one has responded to your comment yet.

Your remarks refer to 2 very important questions. Are religions a cover or shroud for evil? Can we rightly use religion to deprive other humans of their basic rights? You know that the answers cannot be simple. My humble opinions, and only opinions.

1. It is important to separate religion from the people who profess to members of a religious path. There are now, and throughout history there have been, individuals who used religion to justify great wickedness. But this is too simplistic an answer because there are also religions that give humans the right to commit violence against others in the name of God. Sometimes these religions even *require* violence in the name of God.

2. Sikhism does not condone taking fundamental rights from others in the Name of God. All of Sikh history is the story of fighting to preserve the rights of the downtrodden. We do not own our children, or our women, or slaves, etc. When children are born, their souls seek the couple who parent them biologically and choose parents who will create the stage for their souls' karma to be worked out.

So parents are entrusted with a huge responsibility and do not have moral authority over the souls of children. But some Sikhs do terrible things -- as you have mentioned. it is the Sikh not Sikhism that is at fault. 

Why? We know why.. just like the oppressive rulers of Persia, the Crusaders, or those who stone women and those who keep quiet about it, so the parents who force a daughter into marriage are consumed by Pride and at bottom Despair. Guruji is not real for them. 

Do you think this will end? The important thing is to use your head and not despair yourself.


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## makkanz (Oct 10, 2007)

I am moved and humbled by the quality of your response. Thank You


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## makkanz (Oct 10, 2007)

You do realise i am muslim right? Quite secular but muslim by birth.


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## kds1980 (Oct 10, 2007)

Dear makkanz

how are you?

In the traditional society where religion,culture, and tradition are important for family ,parents regularly marry their daughters to others inspite if they are seeing others.It is a matter of families position and respect.It is easy for daughter to marry outside religion.
But it is very difficuilt for parents to face their society.The respect they earn in decades
is lost forever.

Also many girls make blunderous decision while marrying a person.they are plenty of cases in world where girls run away with their boyfriends only to find out that they are already
married,or just satisfying their sexual desires with them.

As far as your community is concerned i am sorry but majority of muslims are not at  all trustworthy for marrying their daughters.recently i  saw a blogspot by muslim where pictures of sikh girls were displayed to insults sikhs.i am not saying that there are no good and tolerant muslims.but they also has to suffer because of what majority is doing.


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## makkanz (Oct 10, 2007)

Hello kds1980,

I am ok. Thank you for asking. I cannot disagree with you at all. I am disgusted by the muslim society and how a majority of them have gone so far away from what logic would suggest is right or wrong. Just blind to what they are doing to others and to each other as well.

It is very unfortunate.

Regards,
Makkanz


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## makkanz (Oct 10, 2007)

But i think there is hope. There are people there from all cultures and religions who do look at things in a balanced way. Who retain the good parts from our faiths and combine them with the good parts from the western culture to form a balanced and well adjusted outlook on life. I am one, and so is my true love. And i think there are a lot more out there who are just like us.

You know when i was younger, my father told me that it was a good thing to break the statues that hindus pray to (his words). I always wondered why it would be a good thing to do that to something so important to someone else. I could never reconcile that with everything else my parents taught me about right and wrong.

So there is hope for us all. I think more and more of the newer generation are forging a new future where we say no to the fear, xenophobia, hatred that has been cultivated in the past by unfortunate and unforgivable acts by our ancestors. And we are moving on and reforging the strong bonds we should have with everyone but especially muslims, sikhs and hindus because we are but one race.


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2007)

Maklanz ji

I did not know you were Muslim, and knowing that would not have changed what I have said. Bothersome to me is the fact that there is a resurgence everywhere in religious fundamentalism. Muslims do not speak as loudly as they should. But others do not either. A woman who is married off by force is the victim of rape, only the rape is legitimated by the religion. The acquiescence of all parties to this shows how easy it is for the mind to be seduced.

 But we also read of Sikh women who are tricked into going on vacation, only to be married by force. Or they are simply told, today we go to Gurdwara and you are getting married. These women are also victims of terror. We read of honor killings. And we read of ghastly acts of violence, as you point out, against others, all justified by religion. No one religious group is stainless in this regard.

The worst part is what you have said -- a basic right has been violated, a basic freedom.

You are a Muslim. You spoke out. You may not be as secular as you think  you are. I should stop right here and say that you have earned your place as a spirit minded person, who is asking the tough questions, trying to be better than that, and you are someone who added something good to my world.

Stay in Chardi Kala


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## clarkejoey (Oct 10, 2007)

Sat Sri Akal.

First, i agree with what has been said thus far. Just to expand a bit... it's unfortunate that people who plan/do wicked things use religion - our great gift - to excuse their wickedness. Some use politics for the same thing: invading countries, imprisonment without trial, etc etc etc... when folk want to be cruel, they will be cruel, and they will excuse themselves with whatever works.

Makkanz, i understand how sad it must be when your religion is being misused in this way; i was a Catholic when the child-abuse business flared up, and it was heartbreaking to me that sick men were able to hide in their robes to avoid the law.

On the bright side - in your case and the Catholic one - the evildoers are (i hope and pray) the exception rather than the rule. Most muslims i have met - and indeed, most Christians -  are just regular folk trying to do the best they can. Pity that the unpleasant ones attract the most attention.

More important is that we don't let awful people blind us to the admirable ones. Also, we need to resist the temptaion to say: "since there are evil people of faith X, faith X is a bad thing."


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2007)

clarkejoey ji,
_
I am using your response to build a little on past remarks by me and others_

* First, i agree with what has been said thus far. Just to expand a bit... it's unfortunate that people who plan/do wicked things use religion - our great gift - to excuse their wickedness. Some use politics for the same thing: invading countries, imprisonment without trial, etc etc etc... when folk want to be cruel, they will be cruel, and they will excuse themselves with whatever works.*

_ There is no question that this happens. It happens because Pride, Lust, Greed win out over truly God-centered thinking. We must not forget that "religion" is commonly re-invented as a social institution by its  followers, and this has been true from the beginning of civilization. Part of the purpose of religions is to  shape people, especially children, to instill fear of consequences here and beyond death, when social norms are violated. None of this has anything to do with God, but all that happens is his hukam. In the end we can't know what God wills. _

* Makkanz, i understand how sad it must be when your religion is being misused in this way; i was a Catholic when the child-abuse business flared up, and it was heartbreaking to me that sick men were able to hide in their robes to avoid the law.

*_I do not know how so many suffering people remain standng, remain patient and kind Penance and asking for forgiveness will cleanse pain and relieve the desire for revenge. But in the end each individual has to find the value in No-hatred No-enmity for himself/herself. 

_ * On the bright side - in your case and the Catholic one - the evildoers are (i hope and pray) the exception rather than the rule. Most muslims i have met - and indeed, most Christians -  are just regular folk trying to do the best they can. Pity that the unpleasant ones attract the most attention.*

_It is more difficult to understand and then move away when talking of the above. True most muslims, catholics, protestants, and others are doing the best they can. But there are segments of Islam that are dedicated to the destruction of other ways of life. There are even some Sufi mystics who choose silence rather than challenging injustice, for religious reasons. So many deeply embedded Sikh values are continually challenged by the words of the prophet Mohamed and his followers. __When Sikh parents learn of a daughter or a son who plans to marry a muslim, can one not understand the feelings of panic they must experience? __But of course forced marriages only deepen the effects of hatred and enmity. These emotions become stronger and weigh more heavily in the universe each time. Then we are all trapped in negative realities more and more._

* More important is that we don't let awful people blind us to the admirable ones. Also, we need to resist the temptation to say: "since there are evil people of faith X, faith X is a bad thing."[/quote]

*_In the end each individual has to find No-hatred No-enmity in himself/herself. _


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## clarkejoey (Oct 10, 2007)

(Taking off rose-coloured glasses)

It's true, too true. There are those who systematically - and with scriptural (written) authority - oppose other faiths. There are Christians in my neck of the wood who eagerly attend "Missioning Classes" whose only end is to teach people the folly of their Non-Christian faith. And that's not even as frightening as those who don't want to debate, just to destroy.

Thanks for reminding us of the difference between "religion" and spirituality; "religion" being the public, structured doctrinal translation of spirituality, which is the wordless, ineffable experience of God in one's own life/self/soul.


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## makkanz (Oct 15, 2007)

Thank you for your support and comments everyone. My initial email with regards to parents might have been a bit strong however i believe it is a abhorrent practice in any day and age .. especially this one.


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## Astroboy (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote by Clarkjoey, *"Most muslims i have met - and indeed, most Christians - are just regular folk trying to do the best they can."*

I like what you said here. It is in harmony with my intentions in this forum to establish a harmonious base for all to be simple and loving community.

Thanks.


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## makkanz (Jan 11, 2008)

'Honour killing' casts medieval shadow over India | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited

what was the final outcome of this?

The case of a mother and daughter

She probably committed suicide after all that has happened. In any case, this is very shameful. This has nothing to with religion ... just our human frailties. People like this, will feel the wrath of god when it is their time. I dont know how they can live with themselves.


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## kds1980 (Jan 11, 2008)

makkanz said:


> 'Honour killing' casts medieval shadow over India | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited
> 
> what was the final outcome of this?
> 
> ...



Here is the latest case of a brahman person his Daughter,son in law and grandson because his son in law was from lower caste.

Details emerge in deadly Oak Forest arson case :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Metro & Tri-State


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 11, 2008)

makkanz said:


> Is religion a shroud for people to commit evil or immoral acts but then use their faith (and the fact that they actively exercise their faith) to comfort themselves in believing it is ok?
> 
> I would like to ask this question. This applies to all religions. Here are some examples:
> 
> ...


None of those are related to SIKHISM but the second two are realted to Punjabi culture. 
I can see how the first one might relate to islam, but none of those prove how religion is a shroud of evil!!??


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## makkanz (Jan 12, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> None of those are related to SIKHISM but the second two are realted to Punjabi culture.
> I can see how the first one might relate to islam, but none of those prove how religion is a shroud of evil!!??


 
People in these situations find comfort in their religion but at the same time somehow justify actions that would be unjustifiable in any religion. To me, religions are a guide to how one should their life, a documented list of things one shouldnt do, which either have a scientific or moral reason behind it. How one can justify the termination of a life (possibly two in this case) and still consider themselves a religious figure and a leader in that religion is hard to fathom. Religion is not a counterweight to be used to balance out unforgivable tasks. Many people consider it to be general ledger of some sort. Do enough good and when you do some bad things, the good will outweigh the bad. To me that is a shroud, one uses within their own mind to balance unforgivable actions. examples ..

1) Muslim molwi runing prayers etc in a mosque, and yet a ruthless business person in their private life ripping off people left right and centre. Well known to the community (ripped off my family as well)

2) Medievil wars in europe. A large number of rich widows left (as the knights had been murdered), the church created the concept of "witches" to burn a number of rich widows as witches in order to confiscate their posessions

3) Jews etc .. in how they treat the palestinians for example .. people who have are outgunned, outnumbered and virtually no money. Hardliners murdering their own leader when their leader gives agreeing to terms that would bring peace

4) Palestinians, recruiting innocent young children and women to blow themselves up ... i dont see any of the leaders putting on a bomb vest and blowing themselves up.

All i am saying here, is that people who have a strong and clear set of religious guidelines and practice and study the religion .. how can they commit such atrocities... Thats why religion is a shroud. It, somehow, allows them to live with themselves, to put a cover over their evil acts, and somehow justify to themselves ...

Its very easy to say that culture and religion are two different things, but religions shape our cultures. So, the question is ... is religion responsible for us doing these evil things .. does it make it easier to do it .. when one can find comfort in their religion while committing evil acts, whether it be suicide bombers or honour killings.

I am sorry, but i am starting to loose faith in religion .. not GOD .... religion. I am ashamed of being muslim and even more ashamed of people who commit these evil acts in the name of Islam. They misinterpret, or interpret in a manner that suits them and then blindly, without question, follow what they hear and see and commit evil acts.

Do you understand what i am saying? Turning, the lens back onto sikhs (this is a sikh forum) .. i think the punjabi culture as it has developed under the superiority complex i have seen in a number of sikhs. 

Please correct me if i am wrong, but I see a large of sikhs believing their beliefs are superior to other people of different faiths. They feel more spiritual and walk with heads high. Believing they are closer to GOD than other people of inferior faiths.

That is the impression i get. All i can do is shake my head and feel sad. People are people. We are all equals. And we are capable of evil. And it seems more easily when one is more religious or considers themselves closer to god. Very sad.

Now do you understand why i think religion is a shroud for evil?


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 12, 2008)

makkanz said:


> People in these situations find comfort in their religion but at the same time somehow justify actions that would be unjustifiable in any religion. To me, religions are a guide to how one should their life, a documented list of things one shouldnt do, which either have a scientific or moral reason behind it. How one can justify the termination of a life (possibly two in this case) and still consider themselves a religious figure and a leader in that religion is hard to fathom. Religion is not a counterweight to be used to balance out unforgivable tasks. Many people consider it to be general ledger of some sort. Do enough good and when you do some bad things, the good will outweigh the bad. To me that is a shroud, one uses within their own mind to balance unforgivable actions. examples ..
> 
> 1) Muslim molwi runing prayers etc in a mosque, and yet a ruthless business person in their private life ripping off people left right and centre. Well known to the community (ripped off my family as well)
> 
> ...


First of all, the Sikhism is actually better that the other religions. This is a fact!
Firstly, other religions have a lot of scientific errors. Sikhism does not. 
Other religions do not promote equality of man and woman and all races. Sikhism does. This is the main reason that religion in general are a shroud of evil. IF you say that these religions(Islam, Christianity, Hinduism etc) DO promote equality of Men, WOmen and humanity, then you need to study them :hmm: because they don't.

So the fact that large number of Sikhs think their beliefs are superior, are not wrong.
But if they believe they are superior to other people, then that goes against the very basic Sikh principles of equality.


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## makkanz (Jan 12, 2008)

what i was raised to believe in my muslim family .. is that everyone is equal, men, women from all faiths and that we will be judged according to our beliefs and our actions. Noone ever told me that Islam is superior to other faiths. Simply that it suggests a way to live your life. Talking about women and especially mothers, they are placed as the head of the family ... and funnily enough .. in our family ... my mother is the boss !!!!

I find your religious arrogance insulting. I dont believe any faith can tell us that ours is better than yours. 

From all i have read, the sikh faith says to focus on the meaning and spirituality of your beliefs and dont get lost in the mechanics. Hence, you will feel closer to god than those who simply practice their faith.

Nowhere, does it say that it is superior. It is *people* who come to that conclusion and in doing so, i believe they have taken a *step away* from god. 

Reading your comments, it seems like you agree with my initial point about religion being a shroud for evil?

and women being equal in your faith .... maybe in your faith ... but not in your testostorone fuelled punjabi culture .. especially daughters ...

Tell me, do you treat the daughters the same way as your sons? From what i have seen, there are 2 set of rules and yet you all insist that women are equal ... or is it only once you have married them off with the boy of your choice?

Do you see the hyporcisy? Again, your beliefs then become a shroud for your actions ... as proven by your female leader ... to the point where she probably murdered an unborn child (27 weeks - fully formed) and quite possibly her own daughter ...

Tell me, where was her faith then? If your beliefs are so much superior, why didnt they stop her from doing such evil acts . and why didnt the sikhs get up and hold her accountable ...

or is this behaviour acceptable in your faith in this situation .. and you can all turn a blind eye?


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## kds1980 (Jan 13, 2008)

> what i was raised to believe in my muslim family .. is that everyone is equal, men, women from all faiths and that we will be judged according to our beliefs and our actions. Noone ever told me that Islam is superior to other faiths. Simply that it suggests a way to live your life. Talking about women and especially mothers, they are placed as the head of the family ... and funnily enough .. in our family ... my mother is the boss !!!!



In one of your earlier post you said that your father told you that hindu idols should be broken and now you are saying that you were told that all faiths are equal.Is breaking the idols of hindu god's mean's equality to you.



> Reading your comments, it seems like you agree with my initial point about religion being a shroud for evil?
> 
> and women being equal in your faith .... maybe in your faith ... but not in your testostorone fuelled punjabi culture .. especially daughters ...
> 
> Tell me, do you treat the daughters the same way as your sons? From what i have seen, there are 2 set of rules and yet you all insist that women are equal ... or is it only once you have married them off with the boy of your choice?



O.K. please tell me how many muslim families are ready to accept if their daughter's marry hindu's,sikhs or christian's.



> Do you see the hyporcisy? Again, your beliefs then become a shroud for your actions ... as proven by your female leader ... to the point where she probably murdered an unborn child (27 weeks - fully formed) and quite possibly her own daughter ...



Why are you blaming the action of jagir kaur on sikhism.If i start posting crime's of muslims then it will be consisdered as spamming as the numbers are so high.

Maakanz here is small example for you

BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Marriage fear teenager 'murdered'

Marriage fear teenager 'murdered'


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## makkanz (Jan 13, 2008)

_In one of your earlier post you said that your father told you that hindu idols should be broken and now you are saying that you were told that all faiths are equal.Is breaking the idols of hindu god's mean's equality to you._

The overriding beliefs instilled in me say that all faiths and religions are equal. As i said before, my mother is the leader in my household and has primarily been responsible for our upbringing.

_O.K. please tell me how many muslim families are ready to accept if their daughter's marry hindu's,sikhs or christian's._

pbbly even fewer. That i belive is culture rather than religion. Islam (and i am not an active practiser) from what i understand, says that the person you marry should believe in a greater power. I believe sikhs share that belief in a greater power.

_Why are you blaming the action of jagir kaur on sikhism.If i start posting crime's of muslims then it will be consisdered as spamming as the numbers are so high._

I am not. I think you need to read my post carefully and understand what i am saying rather take a soundbite and respond to it. In theory Religion --> Framework for living --> A set of values. So if that is the case, why do people (of all faiths) carry out such atrocities. To me, they carry them out and use their beliefs as something to reassure them that overall they are good people. They hide behind them .. hence a shroud .. do you get it?

_Maakanz here is small example for you_

_BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Marriage fear teenager 'murdered'_

There are many examples of this, and given the sheer numbers of muslims in this world and overall the level of poverty and hardship amongst them ... i wouldnt be at all surprised that % of these things is higher. You are missing the point .... What i am saying is here ultimately, beyond my initial point, is that religion is a great divider of people and the trigger/shroud for much evil in this world. We are all guilty.


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## spnadmin (Jan 13, 2008)

Makkans ji,

You know that if you took most world religions, maybe there are some exceptions like Tibetan Buddhism, and studied their social history in detail, you would have a list of many brutal acts against humanity.

There are times in history when a world religion has called individuals to arms in order to brutalize other peoples. However, Sikhism has a clean record in this department. When Sikhs have been called to arms it has been to defend themselves "after all other means have been exhausted." 

The actions of individuals are reflections on them as individuals -- most of the time. Spiritual ignorance takes over. Anger, greed, envy, lust, and ego take over.


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## kds1980 (Jan 14, 2008)

> I am not. I think you need to read my post carefully and understand what i am saying rather take a soundbite and respond to it. In theory Religion --> Framework for living --> A set of values. So if that is the case, why do people (of all faiths) carry out such atrocities. To me, they carry them out and use their beliefs as something to reassure them that overall they are good people. They hide behind them .. hence a shroud .. do you get it?



Maakanz here are my points

First of all stop painting all religions with same color.Religions and their sects are different
some are orthodox while others are quite liberal some are also voilent

Secondly we human beings are social animals and we live in groups.This group could be of nationality,religion,caste ,race etc Now your question is why people do it? The simple answer is that each person has some respect in his group.for example a person who is not a good sikh at heart will try to show others that he is good sikh because he does not want to loose his respect in his society.The biggest insult to asian subcontinental society for a family is if a their daughter decide's to marry outside religion This is also applicable if
the family has caste mentality and their daughter decide's to marry outside caste.Its easy for a girl to marry outside religion but its nearly impossible for parents to face society.
They just become object of fun and gossip among relative's and friends.so its not surprising if some parent's choose to kill their daughters because of social respect.For some people respect in their society is biggest thing even bigger than their childre's.


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## makkanz (Jan 20, 2008)

so .. i guess then Sikhishm, along with islam, christianity and judaism is not that much different .. poisoned by the people who practise it. 

Funny .. because the fundamentals of the sikh beliefs from what i hear are designed to address exactly just these failings in other religions .. and hence the claims to superiority ... ill founded claims from all i have read, heard, seen and experienced.

Thank you .. this has been very educational.


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## kds1980 (Jan 20, 2008)

makkanz said:


> so .. i guess then Sikhishm, along with islam, christianity and judaism is not that much different .. poisoned by the people who practise it.
> 
> Funny .. because the fundamentals of the sikh beliefs from what i hear are designed to address exactly just these failings in other religions .. and hence the claims to superiority ... ill founded claims from all i have read, heard, seen and experienced.
> 
> Thank you .. this has been very educational.



I think you very well know that it is written in sikh code of conduct that a sikh should marry sikh


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## makkanz (Jan 20, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> I think you very well know that it is written in sikh code of conduct that a sikh should marry sikh


 
yes i do ... is not also written that a sikh must not drink alcohol? From what i have seen ... a majority of sikhs do ...

The point i am making is that people pick and choose the bits they like and dont like from a faith ..

The basic problem with your statement ... "a sikh must marry a sikh" ... it is the denial of personal freedom. And when it is acceptable beviour to turn a blind eye to these moral crimes .. it means that society as a whole has failed to live up to what it stands for in general ...

I find it amazing how easily people can forget, when blinded by their faith, that we are all human and one race ... tell me ... these boundaries that religions place between people ... how are they different from apartheid in South Africa ... or the tribal wars between the tutsi's and hutus ...

as you made the point .. we are a society with social groups ... I will make a point to you that takes a slightly broader view ...

1) Look at how current societies have formed over the years ... if you look at how people spread throughout this planet ... e.g. the lapita's as they colonised the south pacific .. becoming ... tongans, samoans, maoris, aboriginies etc ... 

2) How the religions have developed ... if i am not mistaken .. judaism was the first religion ? .. Islam, christianity, sikhism followed ... most of the older religions (and their sects) have similar prophets etc ... I know you will make a claim sikhism is different etc .. but no one faith has quantifiable facts to prove theirs is correct .. not one ...

3) How social groups are a combination of their faiths and their social practices ... within a certain set of people .. there are the followers .. usually 90-95% .. who will follow whatever the group does and find it unacceptable to step outside the social norms .. and then there are the leaders. The followers also practice their religion/faith as prescribed (e.g. sikh must marry a sikh). Tell me where the sikh faith would be if your first guru was a follower ???? you would not exist. Only a very small percentage of people are independant thinkers ...

4) The other problem is that most faiths are written in a old or barely spoken language or detail that a majority of the followers either donot understand the language properly and donot have the time to read it thoroughly ... so what happens ... we listen to what our elders tell us ... people who might have read a bit more ....

5) we are people .. We are conditioned to interpret things in a certain way ... as we are influenced by what we have learnt and experienced while growing up .... so a statement we may read .. automatically as adults, we try to relate it to what we know .. and if we cant link it to something we have trouble understanding it ... so taking your example of "a sikh must marry a sikh" ... there are some basic fundamental problems with that literal interpretation ... outside the obvious one of personal freedom ... Let me try to help you relate to it another way ...

it is common practice in the muslim world .. especially in pakistan where i come from .. to marry within the family ... the basic reasons are (and as like everyone else .. it is my interpretaion) .. firstly people from a similar group have similar values .. they generally have a smiliar level of education .. similar wealth .. similar outlook on life .. and hence when you marry someone in your family .. u have a lot in common .... so less likely to have conflict ...

Now, obviously .. through science and genetics .. we know why it is genetically a bad idea to marry in your own family .... so when you say .. a sikh must marry as sikh ... what you are really recanting is more a literal translation and interpretation of a set of issues that this part of the faith is designed to address . Now taking a much wider view ... try to relate it to the fundamental flaw in the practice of marrying in your own family ... and then relate it back to some of problems sikhs & muslims (especially the hardcore ones) are having integrating into non-indian/sikh/muslim society.

Religious and societal blindness is a common problem throughout the world. A cause for a majority of wars around the world, much of the organised crimes against humanity has been committed in the name of religion ... 

We all need to open your eyes ... take these shutters off .. the fog that is blinding us from the simple truth ... 

Religion has been used as a divider of people ... well known fact throughout the history of our kind .. and yet the simple fact remains that we have the same ancestors ... unless you are saying that sikhs were directly created by god?

We are all people .. homosapiens ... we have 2 eyes, a nose, 2 ears, 2 arms, a couple of legs .... we are the same ... at one point we were in a much smaller group that was all together ... since then, we have spread out across our world ... but we have the same origins .. you only need to look in the mirror. If your skin is a bit darker .. its pbbly because your ancestors were from an area with a lot of sun or didnt wear head coverings .. and as per nature ... the human body adapted and produces more melanin .. or if you are fat .. its because when the human race went through an iceage .. it adapted to storing a large amount of fat to combat starvation ... an ability we no longer need but still have .... 

I am a strong believer in god. There is but only one God. We were created all as equals and are all equal in God's eyes and should treat each other as equals and with the respect they deserve ... and yes that would include our daughters who might want to marry someone outside the cultural norm ...


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## Sinister (Jan 21, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Makkans ji,





aad0002 said:


> You know that if you took most world religions, maybe there are some exceptions like Tibetan Buddhism, and studied their social history in detail, you would have a list of many brutal acts against humanity.
> 
> There are times in history when a world religion has called individuals to arms in order to brutalize other peoples. *However, Sikhism has a clean record in this department. When Sikhs have been called to arms it has been to defend themselves "after all other means have been exhausted*."
> 
> *The actions of individuals are reflections on them as individuals* -- most of the time. Spiritual ignorance takes over. Anger, greed, envy, lust, and ego take over.




 sorry aad ji im going to have to give you the two thumbs down for this post:

i guess all peace initiatives with the passengers of Air India Flight 182 were exhausted before some ‘clean record’ sikhs blew them into tiny peaces?  

or Bhindranwale's 'calls to arm' were entirely defensive measures and not provocative in any nature.

and I suppose Raja Ranjit Singh marched to Kabul with 100,000 men for a peace initiative? The same man who shrouded a temple in amritsar with a thick armour of gold...now i wonder where all that wealth came from??? i wonder i wonder? I wonder why it's still there? I wonder how this is the holiest place for sikhs?  (a temple whose gold is bound with wine, blood, lust, greed, tears, sweat and ambition)
*here is a fact that is denied by no individual...but unexamined and pushed to the back of the head by all 'Sikhs'. Religious philosophy itself, innately, has the capacity to organize (the sangat) ... thus you cannot treat it as individuals performing actions. Religion is a political entity as much as a spiritual one...and that is what Makkanz is referring to. Religion allows for group action/initiative and under this banner they persist in violent and reprehensible behaviour, sometimes even claimed to be sanctified by god himself. (bhindaranwale). The bottom line; MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY LOOKS FOR, AND PROMOTES HIERARCHAL STRUCTURE…and that is its primary sin. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.   *

the same is true for any other school of thought...the stalinist's, the nazi's…they did not do what they did, on the basis of being individuals but they received the courage to commit their atrocities on the basis of group solidarity and strong hierarchal ties. 

We can draw the rosy picture that these handful of people are lost sheep amongst a diverse crowd and not truthful products of the Sikh faith? or perhaps all these men/women were misdirected in their practice of sikhi? (the entitlement defense is legitimate, but not sane, a little mischievous if you ask me)

what Makkanz is saying, is not new to philosophy and to objective viewers of theistic religion (I agree with much of what he relays in this thread)

When examined closely religion forms a complex network of internal tensions. When a religion enters service it contains the usual representation of human behaviour and feeling; yet it also absorbs into its stream of movement the hard and perhaps insoluble pellets of flawless ideology. The conflict is inescapable: Religion tries to confront experience in its immediacy and closeness, while its ideology is by its nature exclusive. 

Religion is deeply divisive, psychologically demanding, and demeaning. It is, by its nature, an assault on humanism…an entity that frowns upon most natural emotions and impulses as negative. 
And Makkanz’s post is a prime example of how everyone united under the banner of sikhi to challenge his message and protect that which is dyer to not only you but also the person next to you. Some of you are not acting as individuals at this instant, and in this unity of message lies the group cohesion that you claim does not play a pivotal role in determining the outcome of behaviour (both negative behaviour and positive as an outcome).

Even the sikh war cry: 'Jo Bole So Nihaal, Sat Sri Akaal'. Roughly means, "He/She Be Blessed Who says Truth is God". There is significance in this war cry…can anyone connect the dots?

ALLAH HU AKBAR? (God is great) 
Notice the reference to god in both war cries. 

christian armies used similiar rallying cries: "God, wills it" (a common one)

Here is another quote and the assault on humanism continues:
_In the end each individual has to find No-hatred No-enmity in himself/herself. _

The extent in which ‘Flawless ideology’ can stretch our minds to these levels is further proof of the insoluble pellets of religion. It is nothing short of insulting reason and a state of continuous manufactured fiction, Utopia (ie; A lie or a wash).

To Makkanz:
PS: Islam is the most dangerous religious institution constructed by men…because it is one of the most divisive and highly motivated religions I have come across ...sikhi does not even hold candle to its atrocities on human rights, free speech, and most importantly sanity. My respect for Sikhism far exceeds my respect for Islam (that is if you believe, I had any respect for these faiths to begin with).


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## kds1980 (Jan 21, 2008)

Makkanz



> yes i do ... is not also written that a sikh must not drink alcohol? From what i have seen ... a majority of sikhs do ...
> 
> The point i am making is that people pick and choose the bits they like and dont like from a faith ..
> 
> The basic problem with your statement ... "a sikh must marry a sikh" ... it is the denial of personal freedom. And when it is acceptable beviour to turn a blind eye to these moral crimes .. it means that society as a whole has failed to live up to what it stands for in general ...



You cannot accept 100% sikhs to be religious and practising.only a tiny minority actually pracatice religion.others are just part of social sikh community.I already explained to you that marrying outside religion is much more social issue but it looks like you don't want to understand



> I find it amazing how easily people can forget, when blinded by their faith, that we are all human and one race ... tell me ... these boundaries that religions place between people ... how are they different from apartheid in South Africa ... or the tribal wars between the tutsi's and hutus ...



Yes we are a human race then why do we have different countries.Are all the countries
created on the basis of religion.I am sure the if you ask people of developed countries who blame religion for divison to allow millions of jobless people of asia to work their they will immidiately take u-turn on this issue.so stop blaming religion for division there are plenty of causes for division among humans.Even there are plenty of division in religion itself.


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## Astroboy (Jan 21, 2008)

Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all.


I have learned two lessons in my life: first, there are no sufficient literary, psychological, or historical answers to human tragedy, only moral ones. Second, just as despair can come to one another only from other human beings, hope, too, can be given to one only by other human beings.


If you lose hope, somehow you lose the vitality that keeps life moving, you lose that courage to be, that quality that helps you go on in spite of it all. And so today I still have a dream. The Trumpet of Conscience​


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