# Philosopher's Stone



## Original (Jun 26, 2015)

_[Edit] Some of the wording used in the write up below may not be my own, can't remember how I stitched it together, sorry. Treat it author anonymous. It's not produced as an authoritative document per se, but more of a contemporary society artefact at a time when Sikhism was in its cradle. Because it has a profound meaning, I thought it worthy to share._




 

It must have been 40  years or so when I first came across the term philosopher's stone. I remember reading an article about the philosopher's stone in a newspaper, somewhere in France. I was excited and eager to learn more. The information was mind blowing, and left me bewildered. Looking back now, it all makes sense why.

The article to the best of my recollection was something along the lines...a young spinster woman met a handsome young man at a gathering, who was unknown or unseen before, a complete stranger. Other then the magical chemistry across a crowed room, there was something else, something more bizarre and unexplainable. She was drawn to this man like flux to a magnet. Nothing came of their meeting other than an informal silence breaking social chit chat before they went their separate ways at the end of the gathering. That's not all, claimed the girl, she met the same stranger at a dinner n dance some decades later when she nearly fainted. Why ? Because he hadn't aged a day since they last met and she, albeit the same woman, aged, frail and gracefully greyed. And, he, the young n handsome who took her fancy remained ever so green.

The man, it said possessed the philosopher's stone.

For me it was this yearning, this quest to find out what the philosopher's stone was and whether it could be found for real.

The philosopher's stone is an ancient symbol of the perfected and evergreen man whose divine nature shines through a chain of purified and unfolding events. As the rough diamond is dull and lifeless when first removed from the earth's crust, so is the spiritual nature of man in its fallen state reveal, little if any, its inherent luminosity. Just as in the hand of the skilful gem cutter is the shapeless stone transformed into a sparkling gem, so too is the soul of man upon the lathe of the divine being grounded and polished until it reflects the glory of its creator.

The perfecting of the diamond soul through philosophical and alchemical art was the Great Works of the ancient past. The philosopher's stone is a legendary substance, supposedly capable of turning inexpensive metals into gold, the alchemist. It was sometimes believed to be an elixir of life, useful for rejuvenation and possibly for achieving immortality. For a long time, it was the most sought-after goal in western alchemy. To the mystic, the philosopher's stone is perfect love, which transmutes the ordinary into extra-ordinary and resurrects the dead from the brink of extinction.

In philosophy, the stone of the wise man is to find the absolute in the infinite, the never changing, the never ageing, the never dying and the ever-lasting secret of life. Some speak of the Holy Grail as being the Philosopher's stone, for it is all spiritual, the wisdom of the saints, sages and philosophers. He who possesses the philosopher's stone possesses "truth" [satnam], the greatest of all the treasures, and is therefore rich beyond the calculation of man. He is immortal because reason takes no account of death and is healed of ignorance. The philosopher's stone is divine power, which all seek but few find.

In this manner of speaking, the philosopher's stone is spiritual, which will impart it's true nature and perfection to all it comes in contact with. Guru Arjun Dev Ji describes it as ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਮਰ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ॥੪॥ 1407 SGGSJ [translation: Guru Nanak passed it to Angad, Angad to Amardas, Amardas to Ramdas and Ramdas to Arjun - touching their feet, I Arjun, have become like them, the philosopher's stone]. In succession thereafter, it remained with the final master, Guru Gobind Singh, who before his departure from the physical plane, bestowed all of the majesty and wonder of the philosopher's stone unto Guru Granth Sahib.

The Sikh devotees begin the day early in the morning with the inauguration of Guru Granth Sahib in the palanquin, where they anoint it with perfume, put to bed in the evening, spread canopy over it and cover it with beautiful rumallas and shower flowers on it. This process has transformed Guru Granth Sahib into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji [SGGSJ]. Such love, devotion, and precious facts have transformed the Bani into Guru, the philosopher's stone.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 27, 2015)

Originalji

interesting writing, I have some comments if I may



Original said:


> It must have been 40 years or so when I first came across the term philosopher's stone. I remember reading an article about the philosopher's stone in a newspaper, somewhere in France. I was excited and eager to learn more. The information was mind blowing, and left me bewildered. Looking back now, it all makes sense why.
> 
> The article to the best of my recollection was something along the lines...a young spinster woman met a handsome young man at a gathering, who was unknown or unseen before, a complete stranger. Other then the magical chemistry across a crowed room, there was something else, something more bizarre and unexplainable. She was drawn to this man like flux to a magnet. Nothing came of their meeting other than an informal silence breaking social chit chat before they went their separate ways at the end of the gathering. That's not all, claimed the girl, she met the same stranger at a dinner n dance some decades later when she nearly fainted. Why ? Because he hadn't aged a day since they last met and she, albeit the same woman, aged, frail and gracefully greyed. And, he, the young n handsome who took her fancy remained ever so green.
> 
> The man, it said possessed the philosopher's stone.



if the analogy is that the philosopher's stone represents enlightenment, are we take it that the end product of enlightenment is that you stay young and handsome?



Original said:


> For me it was this yearning, this quest to find out what the philosopher's stone was and whether it could be found for real.



I guess being young and handsome is some carrot!



Original said:


> The philosopher's stone is an ancient symbol of the perfected and evergreen man whose divine nature shines through a chain of purified and unfolding events


 and you get to be young and handsome!



Original said:


> The perfecting of the diamond soul through philosophical and alchemical art was the Great Works of the ancient past. The philosopher's stone is a legendary substance, supposedly capable of turning inexpensive metals into gold,



I don't wear any gold myself, I don't even think I own any, not actually sure what I would do with it, look at it, I suppose,



Original said:


> It was sometimes believed to be an elixir of life, useful for rejuvenation and possibly for achieving immortality.



a bit like a good dose of amphetamine!



Original said:


> For a long time, it was the most sought-after goal in western alchemy. To the mystic, the philosopher's stone is perfect love, which transmutes the ordinary into extra-ordinary and resurrects the dead from the brink of extinction.



I guess that would turn the whole survival of the fittest thing upside down


Original said:


> In philosophy, the stone of the wise man is to find the absolute in the infinite, the never changing, the never ageing, the never dying and the ever-lasting secret of life. Some speak of the Holy Grail as being the Philosopher's stone, for it is all spiritual, the wisdom of the saints, sages and philosophers. He who possesses the philosopher's stone possesses "truth" [satnam], the greatest of all the treasures, and is therefore rich beyond the calculation of man. He is immortal because reason takes no account of death and is healed of ignorance. The philosopher's stone is divine power, which all seek but few find.



Is there something wrong with me that I do not wish any of these things?



Original said:


> The Sikh devotees begin the day early in the morning with the inauguration of Guru Granth Sahib in the palanquin, where they anoint it with perfume, put to bed in the evening, spread canopy over it and cover it with beautiful rumallas and shower flowers on it. This process has transformed Guru Granth Sahib into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji [SGGSJ]. Such love, devotion, and precious facts have transformed the Bani into Guru, the philosopher's stone.



Originalji, I find this hard to understand. I am really struggling with this.

In my warped heretical head, the philosophers stone seems to stand for the self, the power, to have it, and as such, does not seem a particularly spiritual goal, so to compare the SGGS to it, seems strange to me.

Also you have written that some rituals and ceremonies have "transformed the Bani into Guru, the philosopher's stone", surely reading and understanding it is where that transformation comes from, rather than the perfume, canopies and flowers.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 27, 2015)

Original ji,

Guru Fateh,

Very interesting thought to say the least.

Would you be kind enough to post *the Philosopher's Stone *in its original and share with us your modus operandi how you were able to compare *the Philosopher's Stone *to Gurmat values?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Original (Jun 29, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Originalji
> 
> interesting writing, I have some comments if I may
> 
> ...



Let's have a look at what Baba Nanak Ji said about the likes of you n me [theologians, ideologists, scholars] -

....pundits know not of creation, puranas [books] throw no light on the subject, Qazi too cannot provide proof from Quran, yogis try endlessly, but to no avail. He alone knows the "beautiful moment " when He made this world and everything in it.

The maker is beyond human intellect, speech, praise and description. He is nam [word]. Whatever He wills comes to pass.....

....we mortals, all we can do is lose ourselves in His worship and adoration. We need not attempt to fathom the unfathomable. Let us merge with the infinite, just as rivers and rivulets form a stream which flows out to the sea, not knowing nor caring but flowing in harmony with the song of creation and becoming the ocean of love from whence we came.


harry haller said:


> Originalji
> 
> interesting writing, I have some comments if I may
> 
> ...





harry haller said:


> f the analogy is that the philosopher's stone represents enlightenment, are we take it that the end product of enlightenment is that you stay young and handsome?


Enlightment is knowledge, this is not knowledge but a system of belief constituted by faith. Faith is to believe what you don't see and the reward of this faith is too see what you believe. For example, the fire in the wood sit hidden inside until the wood is set alight.


harry haller said:


> I guess that would turn the whole survival of the fittest thing upside down


Not at all for evolution is part and parcel of Sikh thought.


harry haller said:


> Is there something wrong with me that I do not wish any of these things?


Nothing wrong with that, in fact everything right if you ask me. It's time to philosophise, that is to say, if you do not believe in something construct your own theory of belief. Majority of the riders n runners visiting or residing at SPN are believers of Gur Nanak's way of life. As I said above, it is all about "believeing". To see the fire in the wood one has to set it light, to see the blood underneath the skin one has to break the skin, similarly, to see Nanak one has to start believeing in Him.


harry haller said:


> In my warped heretical head, the philosophers stone seems to stand for the self, the power, to have it, and as such, does not seem a particularly spiritual goal, so to compare the SGGS to it, seems strange to me.


In a nutshell, the philosopher's stone is a "word" - gur har has called it "gurmanter" which is Waheguru for you and me. Like your grandfather was a Gyani, so too was my Phuffar Ji. He enrolled me at a Gursikhi School here in England - bless him, I live in the word 24/7.


harry haller said:


> Also you have written that some rituals and ceremonies have "transformed the Bani into Guru, the philosopher's stone", surely reading and understanding it is where that transformation comes from, rather than the perfume, canopies and flowers.


A mother blinded by the love of her offspring is oblivious to all else, similarly, it is the love and devotion that transforms the physical into the spiritual. History stands testamont to the fact that our ancestors were simple simons, education was an exclusive territory reserved for the few. Despite their illiteracy they carried the candle of "faith"as a "matter" of love n devotion.


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## Original (Jun 29, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh

I was touched by the use of your hi-tech vocab, modus operandi. Definitely an appropriate term to use in the prescribed context, I must confess of reading it first time. I've got the gist of it from the latin element but I had to look up for the precise meaning - thank you !

As regards the subject matter, philosopher's stone, Gur Gobind Singh Ji encapsulated all of its majesty, wisdom and splendour in a "shabd" [word], when they said "khoj shabd main lay" [ardas]. For Sikhs Gur Ghar has called it "Waheguru". The repetition [jap] of which becomes nam simran. Good example is afforded by Bhulla Shah Ji:

...ranjha ranjha kardi ni main apay ranjha hoi
sado ni main deedio ranjha heer na akhay koi.

From a spiritual perspective uttering waheguru waheguru you become waheguru - beautiful !


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2015)

Original said:


> Let's have a look at what Baba Nanak Ji said about the likes of you n me [theologians, ideologists, scholars] -



I still don't know my left from my right! (its true I get them mixed up all the time)



Original said:


> ....pundits know not of creation, puranas [books] throw no light on the subject, Qazi too cannot provide proof from Quran, yogis try endlessly, but to no avail. He alone knows the "beautiful moment " when He made this world and everything in it.
> 
> The maker is beyond human intellect, speech, praise and description. He is nam [word]. Whatever He wills comes to pass.....
> 
> ....we mortals, all we can do is lose ourselves in His worship and adoration. We need not attempt to fathom the unfathomable. Let us merge with the infinite, just as rivers and rivulets form a stream which flows out to the sea, not knowing nor caring but flowing in harmony with the song of creation and becoming the ocean of love from whence we came.



Personally, I say clear of personalisation of Creator, mainly because it is then tempting to bestow Creator with human traits and qualities. Now Originalji, may I say that I hold you in the highest esteem, however, this sort of flowery writing does nothing for me, may I please dissect to illustrate my point.

....we mortals, all we can do is lose ourselves in His worship and adoration

Does Creator wish to be worshiped or adored? This seems a very Abrahamic thought, to me Creator merely wishes the laws of Creation (which in my mind is Hukam), to be respected and noted.

Let us merge with the infinite

again in my mind we were born merged, its not just semantics, not that I am anti semantic (ok I will never ever use that one again , promise), I feel Creator most definitely to be a part of me, I do not need to indulge in strange ceremonies, or adopt weird postures, or make note of some special time when goddy switches his phone on, and then call it Amrit Vela.

just as rivers and rivulets form a stream which flows out to the sea, not knowing nor caring but flowing in harmony with the song of creation and becoming the ocean of love from whence we came

??????




Original said:


> Enlightment is knowledge, this is not knowledge but a system of belief constituted by faith. Faith is to believe what you don't see and the reward of this faith is too see what you believe



I do not share this definition of enlightenment, to me it is more about discovering the ultimate truth, and the nature of truth is that it needs no faith.



Original said:


> For example, the fire in the wood sit hidden inside until the wood is set alight.



again to my eye, the fire is not hidden, it exists as potential.



Original said:


> To see the fire in the wood one has to set it light, to see the blood underneath the skin one has to break the skin, similarly, to see Nanak one has to start believeing in Him.



I believe in the word of Nanak, I do not believe I can see Nanak, and where does Creator fit into all this?




Original said:


> In a nutshell, the philosopher's stone is a "word"




I was afraid you were going to say that,



Original said:


> gur har has called it "gurmanter" which is Waheguru for you and me



errr I don't use gurmanters,so no philosophers stone for me!



Original said:


> I live in the word 24/7.



I guess I must live outside of it then, 24/7!



Original said:


> it is the love and devotion that transforms the physical into the spiritual



Personally I feel that blowing smoke up someone's bottom can be insincere, how does one show love and devotion to Creator?



Original said:


> History stands testamont to the fact that our ancestors were simple simons, education was an exclusive territory reserved for the few. Despite their illiteracy they carried the candle of "faith"as a "matter" of love n devotion.



or maybe, given that the our ancestors were so simple, they just made the message really simple too


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## LSD (Jun 30, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> 
> ...




Mr Tejwant >>there is no <Routine of Operation>>>modus operandi>> method to COMPARE gurmat value to use of philosopher stone

READ gurbani please>>>>PARAS=philosophers stone
myth that can turn LOHA(iron) to GOLD

Why cannot you identify that PARAS is GURU>>PARAS is GURBANI>>>PARAS is SHABD
SHABAD can Transform one's MIND from filth to SUNDAR/beautiful

gurbani says somewhere ""eh mann sundar apna,,,har naam majitay rang"

ONLY by Japp of Har har naam>>>Mnd can become sundarh

PLEASE TELL ME??>>>>>>>Can you make your MIND sundarh and beautiful in Wahguru's eyes by>>decorating it??? applying make up/cosmetics>>>attaching expensive jewels>rubies ??

ONLY ONE way MInd can be beautiful for GOD>>that is jap har har naam
------>>>this leads to YOU getting TRANSFORMED from the dirty LOHA to KANCHAN(GOLD)>>>>same thing what philosophers stone/Paras does


Gurbani says

ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚੇ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਹਮ ਚੇ ਲੋਹਾ ਸੰਗੇ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਭੈਇਲਾ ॥
*Ŧumĥ cẖe pāras ham cẖe lohā sange kancẖan bẖai▫ilā.*
You O Lord are the Philosopher's Stone and I am iron; associating with You I am *transformed into gold*.

and>>
ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਹਮ ਲੋਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
*Gur pāras ham loh mil kancẖan ho▫i▫ā rām.*
The Guru is the Philosopher's Stone; by His touch iron is transformed into gold.


When I say SHABAD>>>>this mean ANHAD shabd>>>one you listen to after GAVIYEH...SUNIYE ...MANN .RAKHIYE...
THIS SHABAD is the GURU>>this transforms the abiyasee on naam simran path.
>>Then you will come to know what the GOLD is inside you.



EXCELLENT topic by ORiginal.

PARAS is wonderfully described in gurbani>>just like the beauty of Amrit>> and UNStruck celestial shabad
>>>these are ALL essential before process of joti jot<light in light> can merge....gurbani also says>..

* ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਹਮ ਲੋਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Gur pāras ham loh mil kancẖan ho▫i▫ā rām. 
The Guru is the Philosopher's Stone; by His touch iron is transformed into gold.* 

* ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਕਾਇਆ ਗੜੁ ਸੋਹਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Joṯī joṯ milā▫e kā▫i▫ā gaṛ sohi▫ā rām. 
My light merges into the Light and my body-fortress is so beautiful.*



.


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## Original (Jun 30, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I still don't know my left from my right! (its true I get them mixed up all the time)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





harry haller said:


> Personally, I say clear of personalisation of Creator, mainly because it is then tempting to bestow Creator with human traits and qualities. Now Originalji, may I say that I hold you in the highest esteem, however, this sort of flowery writing does nothing for me, may I please dissect to illustrate my point.


Creator is both subjective and objective - sargun nirgun, respectively.


harry haller said:


> Does Creator wish to be worshiped or adored? This seems a very Abrahamic thought, to me Creator merely wishes the laws of Creation (which in my mind is Hukam), to be respected and noted.


No, creator does not wish to be worshiped. Thought, whether Abrahamic or ET has a beginning and an end. Different geographical locations founded by human civilisation impacted by environment, culture and human genetics shape human evolution - God [sat] remains clears of this. Roses are known by different names and have different colours, yet they all omit fragrance. Nanak's Satnam is that fragrance. 


Hukam is universal law, mean to an end, but not an end in itself. Nanak says, all is to be found through compliance of Hukam, but real purpose of human birth is to meet the maker, that is, anhad shabd.


harry haller said:


> again in my mind we were born merged, its not just semantics, not that I am anti semantic (ok I will never ever use that one again , promise), I feel Creator most definitely to be a part of me, I do not need to indulge in strange ceremonies, or adopt weird postures, or make note of some special time when goddy switches his phone on, and then call it Amrit Vela.


He is part of you, He the milk you the curd. There are those who through coagulation realise and there are those who by His grace. 


harry haller said:


> I do not share this definition of enlightenment, to me it is more about discovering the ultimate truth, and the nature of truth is that it needs no faith.


I said this in reference to knowledge claims and experience claims. Nanak said I've just had a 121 with God. Science said prove it, Nanak said, OK, put theses shades [Sikhi] on. That is like saying, Avtar the movie with 3D Gogs will give you the sensational "experience" which the ordinary eye won't. Nanak's emphasis on sargun [subjective] is an important observation in the realisation of the "reality" beyond. In philosophy [enlightenment] we have accepted, ok, we can know the world through 5 senses and rational analysis as it appears to our faculties, but we cannot know how the world really is in itself. That is to say, Harry the man can be studied, but Harry the person cannot be experienced, alone Harry himself can experience. In the field of infinite possibilities, as per pure potential, Harry exists on all of these levels simultaneously, but at the level of experience, Harry exist in only one.

The truth is you, Harry the "word" - Guru Gobind has blessed us with "Singh Kaur". Dig deep, you'll experience what I'm saying. Consider the following: The 7 blind men and the Elephant - asked to describe the animal, each one's perspective varied, based on which feature was close at hand, the slender rope like tail, the mighty tree-like legs, the twisting snake-like trunk, and so forth. Each man's version was wrong, but each one of the men possessed an element of the more comples elephantine truth.



harry haller said:


> again to my eye, the fire is not hidden, it exists as potential.


Yes, it is that potential towards which Nanak points. He is saying, "Harry, you have the potential to become "actual"". In otherwords, light the match to see the fire. But of course, Nanak's house is generous and makes it not mandatory but complimentary for the seekers delight.


harry haller said:


> Personally I feel that blowing smoke up someone's bottom can be insincere, how does one show love and devotion to Creator?


This you do all the time - through your interaction everyday, social, business, personal etc..The emotional you is the spiritual you, we are in truth spiritual beings having a human experience.


harry haller said:


> or maybe, given that the our ancestors were so simple, they just made the message really simple too


Our ancestors were cool n deadly for they toiled endlessly on account their invisible Waheguru will hear them. Waheguru has - placed them in a society where their dignity and being is respected and rewarded.


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## chazSingh (Jun 30, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I do not share this definition of enlightenment, to me it is more about discovering the ultimate truth, and the nature of truth is that it needs no faith.
> 
> 
> 
> again to my eye, the fire is not hidden, it exists as potential.



you come across very confused harry ji...

for anyone anywhere to seek anything if they are unaware of something....requires some level of faith or belief that it exists...otherwise you would not make any effort to seek it in the first place...

fire is not hidden...it exists in potential....what does this mean? lol  can you see fire in the wood...with your sight, touch, smell, taste and hearing?
no...it is hidden to you....you have to do something to make it appear....so it is hidden...it exists in potential...you spark it up...it appears...

but before you knew fire existed...you either had faith the wood contained something more...and so you started 'seeking' into ways of finding out what is hidden...

or you sparked it up accidentally....and then marvelled at the sight of it..


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## chazSingh (Jun 30, 2015)

harry Ji, you wrote:
*
....we mortals, all we can do is lose ourselves in His worship and adoration

Does Creator wish to be worshiped or adored? This seems a very Abrahamic thought, to me Creator merely wishes the laws of Creation (which in my mind is Hukam), to be respected and noted.*

in all these years of communicating with you...all the messages...shared with so many people...you ask so many questions and it just highlights that you don't actually spend much time reading and contemplating gurbani...but you just want members of this forum to answer your questions instead...

*you see it doesn't matter what the creator wants or not...*

Gurbani says this is a game of Love...

if you've ever been in love...regardless of what the other person wants...from your heart you want to be with them..share life with them...hug them...care for them...without attachment...you want them to be happy....a feeling you can't explain..it just grown within you...

you say to your partner...."i love you", she asks you "why?"...you say "i don't know...i just do...i cant explain it"

this is all that it is..

but you would know this already if you read and contemplated gurbani...wouldn;t you? and you wouldn't use the phrase..."this seems a very abrahamic thought' for everything that sounds a little nutty or spiritual...

you say you want to seek the truth....why do you want to seek it? why bother? whats prodding you to seek it? have you ever asked why that thought arises in your mind amongst all the other waves after waves of pointless thoughts...


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## Original (Jun 30, 2015)

LSD said:


> Mr Tejwant >>there is no <Routine of Operation>>>modus operandi>> method to COMPARE gurmat value to use of philosopher stone
> 
> READ gurbani please>>>>PARAS=philosophers stone
> myth that can turn LOHA(iron) to GOLD
> ...



 Thank you LSD -

To corroborate with Gurbani excerpts, adds value and gives it spiritual flavour- too good ! 

Statement in passing

Given this is a Sikh forum, it carries with it certain roles and responsibilities of respect and dignity for all participators, particularly when debate and discussion is centre staged. Accordingly, I'm obliged to express a view, which, on the balance of probability is likely to be entertained, that, discussions be fruitful and executed in soft tone rather than an overtone with spiteful connotations. Let us enjoy Guru Ji's word and spread it all over the world. Thank you !


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## Harry Haller (Jun 30, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> you come across very confused harry ji...



that will be the multiple personalities, sorry



chazSingh said:


> for anyone anywhere to seek anything if they are unaware of something....requires some level of faith or belief that it exists...otherwise you would not make any effort to seek it in the first place...



what do you seek Chazji? I have to confess to not really seeking anything, however, I find getting closer to the truth is an appropriate 'meaning of life'



chazSingh said:


> fire is not hidden...it exists in potential....what does this mean? lol can you see fire in the wood...with your sight, touch, smell, taste and hearing?



absolutely yes, everything I look at , I take into account its potential, be it a person, an animal, a car a computer, everything has the potential to be something different. If I were in need of fire, the first thing I would start to look out for would be wood,  can you not see fire in petrol as potential?





chazSingh said:


> but before you knew fire existed...you either had faith the wood contained something more...and so you started 'seeking' into ways of finding out what is hidden...



no, I just know wood is flammable, its called an education......



chazSingh said:


> in all these years of communicating with you...all the messages...shared with so many people...you ask so many questions and it just highlights that you don't actually spend much time reading and contemplating gurbani...but you just want members of this forum to answer your questions instead...



Chazji, you have actually hit the nail on the head, you are absolutely correct. I always said it was , for me anyway, a waste of time to get past Mool Mantra, unless you really understood and made some effort to live it, when I have achieved such, in rare moments, I have found that reading and understanding Gurbani was a lot easier. Unfortunately, my moments of living as per Mool Mantra are not as common as I would like, so yes, I probably do not spend much time reading and contemplating Gurbani, as say your goodself!

I am no scholar, everything I know has been burned in me through the flesh, I always thought I made that clear.



chazSingh said:


> if you've ever been in love...regardless of what the other person wants...from your heart you want to be with them..share life with them...hug them...care for them...without attachment...you want them to be happy....a feeling you can't explain..it just grown within you...





that's not love, that is a desire to be loved and needed, true love takes into account what the other person wants, your love takes into account only your own needs, desires and agenda, regardless of what the other person wants.



chazSingh said:


> but you would know this already if you read and contemplated gurbani...wouldn;t you?



know what? how to love someone that does not wish to be loved? because you have decided its best for both of you?


chazSingh said:


> and you wouldn't use the phrase..."this seems a very abrahamic thought' for everything that sounds a little nutty or spiritual...



or Abrahamic?



chazSingh said:


> you say you want to seek the truth....why do you want to seek it? why bother? whats prodding you to seek it? have you ever asked why that thought arises in your mind amongst all the other waves after waves of pointless thoughts...



you cannot live a life of truth if you do not know what the truth is, what better reason to seek it?

maybe I am not as hungry for it as you, its just something I try and get a little closer to every day whilst I live.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 30, 2015)

Original said:


> No, creator does not wish to be worshiped. Thought, whether Abrahamic or ET has a beginning and an end. Different geographical locations founded by human civilisation impacted by environment, culture and human genetics shape human evolution - God [sat] remains clears of this. Roses are known by different names and have different colours, yet they all omit fragrance. Nanak's Satnam is that fragrance.



I am sorry but I am one of those that do not buy the whole 'all roads lead to rome' thing, the Abrahamics get to goto heaven, the Hindus get nirvana, I, a Sikh, get death. Sikhism for me, stands alone, not a branch of some universal movement to gain enlightenment, more simply as a code of living.



Original said:


> Hukam is universal law, mean to an end, but not an end in itself. Nanak says, all is to be found through compliance of Hukam, but real purpose of human birth is to meet the maker, that is, anhad shabd.



but I have already met my maker, I meet him in the morning when he is standing in front of me in the newsagents, normally in a leather mini skirt and heels, I then meet him again, when he lets me out in heavy traffic, and then again, when he licks my face as I give him a doggy biscuit, and then again, later when he comes into my shop to get his laptop fixed.

I have to go now, my maker has now decided to do his toilet in the park opposite, I better go get a poo bag.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2015)

Original ji,

Guru Fateh.



> I was touched by the use of your hi-tech vocab, modus operandi. Definitely an appropriate term to use in the prescribed context, I must confess of reading it first time. I've got the gist of it from the latin element but I had to look up for the precise meaning - thank you !



Modus Operandi is a very commonly used phrase in all fields. There is nothing hi-tech about it. As I know Latin and am fluent in Portuguese and Spanish, I tend to use common Latin terminology. In fact I wrote a little article named "Vox Populi" here on SPN.



> As regards the subject matter, philosopher's stone, Gur Gobind Singh Ji encapsulated all of its majesty, wisdom and splendour in a "shabd" [word], when they said "khoj shabd main lay" [ardas].



Pardon my ignorance, but I am still confused about the insertion of Philosopher's Stone which LSDji rightly said Paras, as used in Gurbani as a metaphor. Perhaps it takes me longer to grasp things then it does to others.

Regarding* "Gur Gobind Singh Ji encapsulated all of its majesty, wisdom and splendour in a "shabd" [word], when they said "khoj shabd main lay [ardas]", *to be honest,I have no idea who wrote that and in fact no one has the evidence unlike  what is in SGGS, our only Guru. I have written many times here about Ardaas.  I have urged the participants to educate me about what kind of Ardaas  our Gurus used. I have not found the answer yet from anyone. Gurbani is not about hearsay which would be heresy but it is all encapsulated in SGGS by our visionary Gurus and it is done in such a scientific way that nothing can be added or taken out. This is the reason I question what is on page 1430, an odd addition by someone, an ugly knot as I call it in this beautifully woven tapestry which is our only Guru.

Our 10th Guru turned the Adi Granth into Guru Granth by adding his dad's Gurbani but he never added a single word from his own poetry. History shows us that our 10th Guru was a great poet, a polyglot and had poets with him at Paonta Sahib which I had the honour to visit twice in my younger years.

I do not question why our 10th Guru did not add anything of his own. How dare I?  I just accept his decision rather than undermining him.

Coming back to our present day Ardaas that we recite all the times, as you will find in many threads here, I have not only questioned it but showed how it goes against the grain of Gurmat ideals/values given to us through SGGS. Sikhi is based on questioning as Guru Nanak taught us by asking the significance of Janieu at a tender age of 8. So, everything that is outside SGGS and if it contradicts the values enshrined in it, I take it with a sack of salt.



> For Sikhs Gur Ghar has called it "Waheguru". The repetition [jap] of which becomes nam simran. Good example is afforded by Bhulla Shah Ji:
> 
> ...ranjha ranjha kardi ni main apay ranjha hoi
> sado ni main deedio ranjha heer na akhay koi.
> ...



You and I understand the word Jap in different ways it seems. The interesting part is that *ਜਪੁ *comes 96 times in the SGGS whereas *ਜਪਿ *comes 487 times according to http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y.

I would like you to share your Sikhi wisdom with us so we can understand the difference between *ਜਪੁ and * *ਜਪਿ *because in English both are translated as chanting/meditation.

According to Prof. Sahib Singh:
॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
Jap.
Chant And Meditate:

ਜਪੁ = ਇਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ 'ਜਪੁ' ਹੈ।
ਜਪੁ' ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੈ।

For me Jap is not just chanting but it is a multi step dance which Guru Nanak explains it quite nitidly in Jap.

ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o.

Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.
ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿੱਚ। ਰਖੀਐ = ਟਿਕਾਈਏ। ਭਾਉ = ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਪਿਆਰ।
(ਆਓ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ) ਗਾਵੀਏ ਤੇ ਸੁਣੀਏ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਉਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਟਿਕਾਈਏ।

For me the true meaning of Jap is in the above. In other words, Singing is the first step as most of the people who followed Guru Nanak were not well educated and some were not educated at all because education was only allowed to the chosen few. You have also mentioned the same in a post of yours. Singing is easy to chant, and can be memorised by anyone. This is the reason our visionary Gurus wrote the whole Gurbani in poetry which is sung in Raags. Singing makes us dance from the within but Guru ji says above only singing/chanting is not enough. Those are the baby steps in a Sikh's life. After Singing, one has to Listen to the message in order to Understand it. After Understanding, one has to Practice it in one's life. Hence,the sum of whole is what Jap and Simran are to me because Simran is also translated as ਜਪੁ in other parts by Prof. Sahib Singh.

And, what do we get in return? The following says, through trials and tribulations that life offers us, we, as a boat, rise with the rising tide along with others. The sacrifices by our 5th Guru, our 9th Guru and other brave Sikhs that followed them who also sacrificed their lives are our proofs of that.

ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e.
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.

ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ = ਦੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਕੇ। ਘਰਿ = ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿੱਚ। ਲੈ ਜਾਇ = ਲੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਖੱਟ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।
(ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਆਹਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ) ਆਪਣਾ ਦੁੱਖ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਸੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਵਸਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

I personally would not compare Bulleh Shah's poetry with our beautiful Gurbani. In the verses by the great Sufi poet you posted, it is nothing but romanticizing the love in a beautiful manner by Heer towards her  lover Ranja.

Gurbani goes a lot farther than that in the same thought process as mentioned above.

Lastly, I would like to say that I enjoy interacting with you because you have great treasures within that you share here with us. Every time I interact with you, I feel enrichened.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 1, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Chazji, you have actually hit the nail on the head, you are absolutely correct. I always said it was , for me anyway, a waste of time to get past Mool Mantra, unless you really understood and made some effort to live it, when I have achieved such, in rare moments, I have found that reading and understanding Gurbani was a lot easier. Unfortunately, my moments of living as per Mool Mantra are not as common as I would like, so yes, I probably do not spend much time reading and contemplating Gurbani, as say your goodself!
> 
> I am no scholar, everything I know has been burned in me through the flesh, I always thought I made that clear.



then seriously...your opinions will help you more as a person if all the questions you ask other members repeatedly were asked to SGGS Ji..and you opened its pages and start reading it...delving into it..

look at what is referenced over and over...why? by whom? in what way? what emotions are involved...what sounds vedic? and why...but why is it referenced...
why does Guru nanak dev ji say we can see the abode of waheguru if we do the following? oh wait...that sounds loony...is it loony?...shall i try it...
who has tried it...lets speak with them...is there anything that the true follower is saying that correlated to Gurbani...could it be true..who else has had a similar experience...and doing what...was it amrit vela...was it seva..

this is the journey to find out the real sikhi...

i've been communicating with you for a few years now on this forum...you're still asking the same questions or making exactly the same responses...all without not actually doing the above..

whats the point...why waste your energy...


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## Harry Haller (Jul 1, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> hen seriously...your opinions will help you more as a person



whoaaa there Chazji, my opinions are for others not me, I already know what my opinions are, today anyway.



chazSingh said:


> if all the questions you ask other members repeatedly were asked to SGGS Ji..and you opened its pages and start reading it...delving into it..



I ask questions to provoke thinking and debate.



chazSingh said:


> look at what is referenced over and over...why? by whom? in what way? what emotions are involved...what sounds vedic? and why...but why is it referenced...
> why does Guru nanak dev ji say we can see the abode of waheguru if we do the following? oh wait...that sounds loony...is it loony?...shall i try it...
> who has tried it...lets speak with them...is there anything that the true follower is saying that correlated to Gurbani...could it be true..who else has had a similar experience...and doing what...was it amrit vela...was it seva..
> 
> this is the journey to find out the real sikhi...



Your Sikhi is through meditation, mine is through pragmatism, I fail to see the problem and I fail to see, with oodles of respect, why it should bother you?



chazSingh said:


> this is the journey to find out the real sikhi...



ahhh you see, there you have it, there I am quite happily reading an old copy of viz, eating this delicious goat curry with rice and peas, and watching 'the warriors', and suddenly 'this is the journey to find out the real sikhi', is it? can you be that definitive? should you not allow others the freedom to explore themselves, I have brought you into threads many times because you are our resident meditation person, along with Luckyji, you guys are straight guys, good Sikhs, I know you meditate, but I also know that you are straight men, not for you guys the stooping low of subterfuge or underhand dealings, or playing silly games, No,  the one thing I really like about you guys is that you stand up for what you believe in, you guys are happy to stand up in your own name and be yourselves, I bow to you for that. But that comment, without the aid of an 'in my opinion' makes you sound egoistical and arrogant, how could you possibly know?



chazSingh said:


> i've been communicating with you for a few years now on this forum...you're still asking the same questions or making exactly the same responses...all without not actually doing the above..



I consider myself a fruitful work in progress, how you could possibly make such a statement without knowing me is amazing!



chazSingh said:


> whats the point...why waste your energy...



there is a saying, we hate in others, what we hate in ourselves, are you asking me, or yourself?


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## Original (Jul 1, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> harry Ji, you wrote:
> *
> ....we mortals, all we can do is lose ourselves in His worship and adoration
> 
> ...





chazSingh said:


> Gurbani says this is a game of Love...
> 
> if you've ever been in love...regardless of what the other person wants...from your heart you want to be with them..share life with them...hug them...care for them...without attachment...you want them to be happy....a feeling you can't explain..it just grown within you...
> 
> you say to your partner...."i love you", she asks you "why?"...you say "i don't know...i just do...i cant explain it"



Chaz

God is love - *jin prem kiyo tin he prabh payo* - Guru Gobind Singh, Dasam Granth. And, yes you're right in bringing it on board, for the mystic, the philosopher's stone is true love - Bhagat Ravidas weaves it beautifully, *sachi preet hum tum sa'hon jori, tum sa'hon jor avar sangi tori* [page 658 SGGSJ, "my true love is you O Lord, with you I attach, with the world I detach"].

For those who've been down lovers lane, know God in truth, they search not - God searches for them.

Goodnight !


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## Original (Jul 2, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh - good morning [06:53 UK]

Interesting way to look at things, especially the dance n the dancer. Those who know the dance n the dancer to be the one and the same albeit framed as an adjective n noun respectively, know surely, Nanak's nirgun n sargun.

As regards philosopher's stone LSD has done a wonderful job in providing excerpts from SGGSJ, which is self-explanatory. 

ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਹਮ ਲੋਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Gur pāras ham loh mil kancẖan ho▫i▫ā rām. 
The Guru is the Philosopher's Stone; by His touch iron is transformed into gold.

ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਕਾਇਆ ਗੜੁ ਸੋਹਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Joṯī joṯ milā▫e kā▫i▫ā gaṛ sohi▫ā rām. 
My light merges into the Light and my body-fortress is so beautiful.

Taking it literally to mean that the Guru was the philosopher's stone and all the properties of the philosopher's stone [paras] were in the Guru, that is, able to "change" or "transform" the aspiring soul from human to spiritual. The paras or the magic to change and transform one from human to spiritual is vested in the shabd, word form, referred to as "sat saroop". 

The Cornerstone of Sikh theology merges beautifully in parlance with "guru manao granth and panth". That is to say, for a 21st century Sikh, guru is both "Granth n Panth". Sikhi n Sikh Society must go hand in hand, that is, Bani Bana. This in truth is what " popular" Sikh thought is. The rightness n wrongness is never a moot point because this is a system of "belief". For me Guru Granth Sahib, with 1430 or 1429 pages wouldn't make a difference because I believe in the "word" and the word is "Waheguru". And, since beliefs vary, I'm aware of the diversity therein, regardless, I continue to honour both temporal and spiritual Sikh. That is not to say, I don't have reservations, I do indeed, but the drift of my text is, I accept Sikhi in its entirety without qualifications because that is how it was passed on to me. I want to preserve the naivety, the innocence, the grandeur, the beauty, the majesty of the social, cultural, traditional {censored}tail within which it evolved. Ardas in that respect for me is gospel and I believe in it cent percent. Who wrote it, where it was written etc. are academic arguments and accordingly must by convention be revisited for determination. 

From both academic and conventional perspespectives, citing sources is a must, otherwise written word is of little substance. I've said to you in the past, if there'd be disagreements or misrepresentations within any of the Sikh literature then please provide references so that I'm able to explore. That way an academic research based project could be launched. 

Moving on to Jap - I'll quickly brush over it, have a meeting to attend shortly.
Guru Nanak, after realising God had to let the world know of his new find, so, he chose to express it through, initially mool mantar followed by Japji Sahib. The form he used is indeed poetic, but in question n answer mode. So first of all, he makes a statement [preamble], declaring his God, form, characteristics, etc. Within his opening statement he also offers how his God is met or realised [gur prasad]. Following Gur prasad is Jap. What he is saying, in answer form is, " hey, soul chant repeat n keep repeating, mindset" - do jap and keep doing it [keep chanting keep repeating n meditate].

Then his 1st pauri starts with a question, ok, I've understood the mool mantar, but what do I meditate on ? Then he answers, "..ad sach, jug ad sach" that is, meditate on sat [satnam].

The word ‘Jap’ means to ‘recite’/‘to ‘chant’/'to stay focused onto'. Derived from Sanskrit "Japa" - subtle utterance. Throughout Gurbani its significance is attached to "nam" or shabd jap - hey manmukh recite the name of the Lord.

From a philosophical perspective [metaphysics] Nanak sealed, signed n delivered the whole of everything in his mool mantar. The entire SGGSJ is an explanation thereafter, literally speaking.

Enjoy the day !

Waheguru


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## chazSingh (Jul 3, 2015)

Original said:


> Chaz
> 
> God is love - *jin prem kiyo tin he prabh payo* - Guru Gobind Singh, Dasam Granth. And, yes you're right in bringing it on board, for the mystic, the philosopher's stone is true love - Bhagat Ravidas weaves it beautifully, *sachi preet hum tum sa'hon jori, tum sa'hon jor avar sangi tori* [page 658 SGGSJ, "my true love is you O Lord, with you I attach, with the world I detach"].
> 
> ...



Very well said ji...

those quotes just put me in a deep state of longing..

god bless


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 5, 2015)

Original ji,

Guru Fateh



> Interesting way to look at things, especially the dance n the dancer. Those who know the dance n the dancer to be the one and the same albeit framed as an adjective n noun respectively, know surely, Nanak's nirgun n sargun.



Pardon my ignorance, but would you be kind enough to elaborate it please what you mean by the above?
I was talking about the trance of the musical Gurbani on people/dancers. We are all dancers and we dance according to the strings within that Gurbani plays in us as individuals. These inner strings are one's own  way one hears the musical Gurbani and dances accordingly. It is the inner dance.



> As regards philosopher's stone LSD has done a wonderful job in providing excerpts from SGGSJ, which is self-explanatory.
> 
> ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਹਮ ਲੋਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
> Gur pāras ham loh mil kancẖan ho▫i▫ā rām.
> ...



Original ji, you must have noticed that this Shabad by our 4th Guru Ram Das starts on page 1113, *ਤੁਖਾਰੀ ਛੰਤ ਮਹਲਾ ੪.* It is complied in 4 stanzas of Sestets-6 line poems. The important thing to notice in this shabad is what it says in the beginning which is: *ਛੰਤ. *Let's focus on this word. *ਛੰਤ* which means *to praise- ਵਡਿਆਈ*. Most of the times in the SGGS, *ਛੰਤ * is used in the beginning of the Shabad with the name of the Raag to explain what the Shabad is about like in the above which is sung in *Raag* *ਤੁਖਾਰੀ* but Guru Sahib has also used it in Gurbani as well. Here is one from page 254:
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ਛਾਤੀ ਸੀਤਲ ਮਨੁ ਸੁਖੀ *ਛੰਤ* ਗੋਬਿਦ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ॥
Cẖẖāṯī sīṯal man sukẖī cẖẖanṯ gobiḏ gun gā▫e.
The heart is cooled and soothed, and the mind is at peace, chanting and singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe.
ਸੀਤਲ = ਠੰਡੀ। ਛੰਤ = ਛੰਦ, ਗੀਤ। ਗਾਇ = ਗਾ ਕੇ।
ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਗਾ ਕੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਠੰਡ ਪੈ ਜਾਏ, ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ,

ਐਸੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਦਸਾਇ ॥੧॥
Aisī kirpā karahu parabẖ Nānak ḏās ḏasā▫e. ||1||
Show such Mercy, O God, that Nanak may become the slave of Your slaves. ||1||
ਦਾਸ ਦਸਾਇ = ਦਾਸਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਾਸ ॥੧॥
ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਮੇਰੇ ਤੇ ਅਜੇਹੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰ। ਨਾਨਾਕ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਦਾਸਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਾਸ ਹਾਂ ॥੧

So, Paras is just one word in the one line of a sestet above from the 24 line Shabad and it is just one more metaphor used by Guru Sahib to sing praises of Ik Ong Kaar and it does not do any justice when we pick and choose one word from this long beautiful Shabad which uses many metaphors to express the awe and wow factors with praises.This is like plucking a petal of a flower and calling it a flower which seems quite unjust in my opinion.



> The Cornerstone of Sikh theology merges beautifully in parlance with "guru manao granth and panth". That is to say, for a 21st century Sikh, guru is both "Granth n Panth". Sikhi n Sikh Society must go hand in hand, that is, Bani Bana. This in truth is what " popular" Sikh thought is.



Forgive me for taking liberty by using your own words from the other thread regarding my presentation of Sikhi to HLS. I would like you to explain the above for the following reasons given by you. Where did you get the above from?

Your words: 





> The rationale behind the questions is to know whether the information provided in your presentation is "consistent" with that of the authoritative body of Sikhism, that is, SGPC and Sikh Theology, or is it your own version ? It is because I don't know that is why I am asking.
> It is in the interest of the house of Nanak that accurate information is found through out the world regardless of what one's "personal" take on the matter may be. Of course, many a time I think of "reformation" of Sikhi in line with evolution, but in as much that a desire, I am equally reminded to preserve its original "thought" process together with social and cultural variations of the Banikars; so as to do justice in its entirety.



You write:



> The rightness n wrongness is never a moot point because this is a system of "belief".



For me Sikhi is not a belief which consists of blind faith, hence can not be questioned whereas Sikhi is based on questioning. The dogmatic religions are based on beliefs unlike Sikhi which is pragmatic.



> For me Guru Granth Sahib, with 1430 or 1429 pages wouldn't make a difference because I believe in the "word" and the word is "Waheguru".



For me the "word" is  *ੴ *not "Waheguru" which is *ਛੰਤ *as explained above like "Wowguru"!



> And, since beliefs vary, I'm aware of the diversity therein, regardless, I continue to honour both temporal and spiritual Sikh.



Miri Piri is the  way of life of a Sikh in a very tangible manner. Sorry to say it has nothing to do with any beliefs which vary according to you and I agree with that part.



> That is not to say, I don't have reservations, I do indeed, but the drift of my text is, I accept Sikhi in its entirety without qualifications because that is how it was passed on to me. I want to preserve the naivety, the innocence, the grandeur, the beauty, the majesty of the social, cultural, traditional {censored}tail within which it evolved.



Please allow me again to use your words to yourself. Please provide what you claim above according to your words in bold below.

*



			From both academic and conventional perspespectives, citing sources is a must, otherwise written word is of little substance. I've said to you in the past, if there'd be disagreements or misrepresentations within any of the Sikh literature then please provide references so that I'm able to explore. That way an academic research based project could be launched.
		
Click to expand...

*


> Ardas in that respect for me is *gospel* and I believe in it cent percent. Who wrote it, where it was written etc. are academic arguments and accordingly must by convention be revisited for determination.



Is *gospel* the word you used  for your westernised version of Sikhi?  Pun intended. 

Having said that, I am sorry to say I have no idea what you mean by above and it does not answer any of my questions about Ardaas as I have posted in my post. These are not academic arguments but questions based on Gurmat values given to us by our Gurus in SGGS, our only Guru.



> Moving on to Jap - I'll quickly brush over it, have a meeting to attend shortly.
> Guru Nanak, after realising God had to let the world know of his new find, so, he chose to express it through, initially mool mantar followed by Japji Sahib. The form he used is indeed poetic, but in question n answer mode. So first of all, he makes a statement [preamble], declaring his God, form, characteristics, etc. Within his opening statement he also offers how his God is met or realised [gur prasad]. Following Gur prasad is Jap. What he is saying, in answer form is, " hey, soul chant repeat n keep repeating, mindset" - do jap and keep doing it [keep chanting keep repeating n meditate].
> 
> Then his 1st pauri starts with a question, ok, I've understood the mool mantar, but what do I meditate on ? Then he answers, "..ad sach, jug ad sach" that is, meditate on sat [satnam].



Firstly, the word "meditate" has nothing to do with Sikhi. It is a distortion from the Hindutva to poorly translated Gurbani into English by the Christian missionaries who had no inkling about Sikhi's essence and were influenced by their Christian background by no fault of their own. Secondly please elaborate what you understand  by* "..ad sach, jug ad sach"?*
Is the above:
1. Objective Truth?
2. Subjective Truth?
3. Absolute Truth as is Abrahamic religions?

I have a thread on SPN regarding *Mool Mantar* which you may find of interest.



> The word ‘Jap’ means to ‘recite’/‘to ‘chant’/'to stay focused onto'. Derived from Sanskrit "Japa" - subtle utterance. Throughout Gurbani its significance is attached to "nam" or shabd jap - hey manmukh recite the name of the Lord.



You and I understand Jap in a different manner which is fine with me. I am still waiting for your explanation about the difference between ਜਪੁ and ਜਪਿ.

If I take your understanding of "Jap", then how would you understand what we recite daily in 'So Dhar' -Rehraas ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ॥ on page 12?

Lord is also a poor translation of Gurbani which does not do any justice because Lord is a deity in Christianity and Sikhi does not have any deity. To replace Ik Ong Kaar; the formless, sans enmity and sans fear as mentioned in Mool Mantar with Lord is quite demeaning. In fact I wrote an article  regarding it here on SPN- Lord as Ik Ong Kaar?

I am very well aware that language and its usage is as important to you as it is to me.



> From a philosophical perspective [metaphysics] Nanak sealed, signed n delivered the whole of everything in his mool mantar. The entire SGGSJ is an explanation thereafter, literally speaking.



I agree.

Thanks for the great interaction. To be contd.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 6, 2015)

Original said:


> Tejwant Singh - good morning [06:53 UK]
> 
> Interesting way to look at things, especially the dance n the dancer. Those who know the dance n the dancer to be the one and the same albeit framed as an adjective n noun respectively, know surely, Nanak's nirgun n sargun.
> 
> ...




Original Ji,

Just out of interest so that i know and understand you better...you probably gather from my posts that God Willing i do regular Amrit Vela, Simran, meditation etc...is this something that you also do? if so it would be good to have some discussions, maybe a new thread on this amazing journey that begins to manifest within us through this wonderful Seva of Simran.

God Bless


Thank you ji.


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## Original (Jul 6, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> Just out of interest so that i know and understand you better...you probably gather from my posts that God Willing i do regular Amrit Vela, Simran, meditation etc...is this something that you also do? if so it would be good to have some discussions, maybe a new thread on this amazing journey that begins to manifest within us through this wonderful Seva of Simran.
> 
> ...



Dearest Chaz

I'm all that yo say about yourself, but there is more. I understand you more than anyone else because, I am you. Our mother n father are "one" - satnam waheguru. Alone, God knows how many janam's Ive been meditating [to think, search, call out, believe in] but yes, *jeevat marya bhav jal taryia* [the art of dying], I'm blessed. Chaz, best I could describe the nature and the understanding of human life is like the casting of a pebble into the stillness of the lake and then watch the ripple-effect pan out further n further away. We're all in some respects, moving closer or further away, but essentially, moving. Meditation; reading a book is meditation, falling in love and thinking about her is meditation - our meditation is sitting in the lap of "shabd" - the only freedom there is in this deterministic universe.

You're a beautiful soul and have lot to offer - Bhagat Kabir's shabd on p1368 is a good way to start:

If I make the seven oceans my ink,
make the entire population of trees my pen,
make the flatness of the earth my paper,
even then I cannot fully praise thee O' God.

Take care -


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## chazSingh (Jul 6, 2015)

Original said:


> Dearest Chaz
> 
> I'm all that yo say about yourself, but there is more. I understand you more than anyone else because, I am you. Our mother n father are "one" - satnam waheguru. Alone, God knows how many janam's Ive been meditating [to think, search, call out, believe in] but yes, *jeevat marya bhav jal taryia* [the art of dying], I'm blessed. Chaz, best I could describe the nature and the understanding of human life is like the casting of a pebble into the stillness of the lake and then watch the ripple-effect pan out further n further away. We're all in some respects, moving closer or further away, but essentially, moving. Meditation; reading a book is meditation, falling in love and thinking about her is meditation - our meditation is sitting in the lap of "shabd" - the only freedom there is in this deterministic universe.
> 
> ...



love the analogy of the ripple...

god bless


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## Original (Jul 6, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> love the analogy of the ripple...
> 
> god bless



 ...the ripples represent the levels of our consciousness relative to the pebble [shabd] in the middle.The proximity defines our spiritual prowess. It's when we surrender to the submerging sound of the pebble and let its sweet, soft, mournful strains be funnelled into our soul through physical vents, the effect leaves an everlasting smile of the Buddha.


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## Original (Jul 6, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but would you be kind enough to elaborate it please what you mean by the above?
> I was talking about the trance of the musical Gurbani on people/dancers. We are all dancers and we dance according to the strings within that Gurbani plays in us as individuals. These inner strings are one's own way one hears the musical Gurbani and dances accordingly. It is the inner dance.


 Tejwant Singh, from a physicist perspective, the human body is a field of invisible vibrations [interaction between waves n particles] and "Teji" is a musical note on a violin string [metaphor]. That is to say, Tejwant is both the dance [adjective] and the dancer [noun] moved by energy [Ik ong kar].


Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji, you must have noticed that this Shabad by our 4th Guru Ram Das starts on page 1113, *ਤੁਖਾਰੀ ਛੰਤ ਮਹਲਾ ੪.* It is complied in 4 stanzas of Sestets-6 line poems. The important thing to notice in this shabad is what it says in the beginning which is: *ਛੰਤ. *Let's focus on this word. *ਛੰਤ* which means *to praise- ਵਡਿਆਈ*. Most of the times in the SGGS, *ਛੰਤ * is used in the beginning of the Shabad with the name of the Raag to explain what the Shabad is about like in the above which is sung in *Raag* *ਤੁਖਾਰੀ* but Guru Sahib has also used it in Gurbani as well. Here is one from page 254:


Paras is synonymous with the Alchemist of the west. Gur Ghar is absolutely clear -

ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਹਮ ਲੋਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
Gur pāras ham loh mil kancẖan ho▫i▫ā rām.

The Guru is the Philosopher's Stone; by His touch iron [human] is transformed into gold [spiritual]. Doesn't need interpretation, gur paras [guru is philosopher stone] hum loha [I'm iron].

Literal interpretation means to give words their ordinary signification. For example, "Neil Armstrong landed on the moon in 1969", this is a statement of fact accepted throughout the modern world. The same statement read in 1000 years time when much of our solar system will be colonised by humankind cannot be read to mean the moon of Saturn.


Tejwant Singh said:


> Forgive me for taking liberty by using your own words from the other thread regarding my presentation of Sikhi to HLS. I would like you to explain the above for the following reasons given by you. Where did you get the above from?


After Guru Teg BahadhurJi it was Guru Gobind - Guru of Sikh. Guru Gobind conferred guruship on SGGSJ,[granth] and panj pyara [panth]. This meant the state [panth] was greater than the Guru. Guru Ji was visionary - knew what he was doing, weren't gonna leave us to be shepherd around by "one" man rule.


Tejwant Singh said:


> For me the "word" is *ੴ *not "Waheguru" which is *ਛੰਤ *as explained above like "Wowguru"!


My allegiance is to my faith, Sikh. Whatever word is used to mean whatever, I'll accept it with an open heart, without qualification.



Tejwant Singh said:


> Is *gospel* the word you used for your westernised version of Sikhi? Pun intended.
> 
> Having said that, I am sorry to say I have no idea what you mean by above and it does not answer any of my questions about Ardaas as I have posted in my post. These are not academic arguments but questions based on Gurmat values given to us by our Gurus in SGGS, our only Guru.



Gospel is a figure of speech for me [UK] meaning "honestly". Ardas for me is "chardi kala" - who wrote it doesn't matter to me, in fact how universal and humanitarian sarbat da bhalla is.



Tejwant Singh said:


> I agree.


 Tej, your contribution as a Sikh is beyond measure - I wish you the very best. With me, I'm old wine in a new bottle and want to hold on to what I've inherited from my ancestors, Waheguru Satnam.

Thank you and Godbless !


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