# Q&A With Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal



## sunsingh (Jul 28, 2008)

1. Avtarvaad tai gurmat naal ki sanbhand?
2. According to vikayaran, some people claim that sant word is either only used for vahiguroo or guru sahiban or sadhsangat, but its not used for one personality other than guru sahib.?
3.veechar on parkash of sri dasm granth side by side with sri guru granth sahib ji.
4. importance of nagar kirtan in the panth.
5. importance of five takths in the panth and authority of five jathedars of five takhts in the panth.
6. Veechar on satguru phrase in gurbani? is it only used for guru sahiban or bhagat's guru as well? are krishan maharaj ram chandar maharaj referred to satguru within in their own jugs in gurbani/bhai gurdas ji varan?
7. veechar on nanakshahi calender
8. According to Bhagat Bani Ithihaas , giani ditt singh claim that all the bhagats took gurmat naam from sri guru nanak dev ji and were mukht by sri guru nanak dev ji instead of their own gurdev's ?
9. Gurmat vich avtara da ki vichar hai- krishan maharaj, ram chandar ji? ehna di gatti ki ha?
10. Which form is shud roop when we do vikhaiya of gurbani? vikayaran/uthanka/adayamic arth?
11. Ki Panj baniyas is enough to get mukhti?
12. what is shariat? what is tariqat? what is marfat? what is hikakat in gurmat?
13. If someone works until night time, can one sleep after doing patt at amritvela?
14. Word "amrit" in gurbani ? does it have multiple meanings? charan amrit? khanda da amrit? naam amrit? puratan samoparda's like- udasi, sevapanthis they take charan amrit, are they not sikhs?

right click on the link below and save target as:


http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwarene...answers session with baba jagjit singh ji.mp3

2nd segement on spirituality/adhyatam coming shortly!!.. stay tuned.

The person who uploaded this (N30 from www.sikhawareness.com :: Index, said that the VAS system of the voice recorder cut out parts of the answers, and he will re-ask the questions).


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## sunsingh (Jul 28, 2008)

2nd discussion:
Veechar on satguru phrase in gurbani? is it only used for guru sahiban or bhagat's guru as well? 

- According to Bhagat Bani Ithihaas , giani ditt singh claim that all the bhagats took gurmat naam from sri guru nanak dev ji and were mukht by sri guru nanak dev ji instead of their own gurdev's ? 

- Gurmat vich avtara da ki vichar hai- krishan maharaj, ram chandar ji? ehna di gatti ki ha? 

- Word "amrit" in gurbani ? does it have multiple meanings? does it refers to naam amrit or gyan amrit? charan amrit? khanda da amrit? naam amrit? puratan samoparda's like- udasi, sevapanthis they take charan amrit, are they not sikhs? 




atamik questions: 

- Panj koshas da gurbani vichaie jikar? 
- how does guru maharaj bachan in gurbani- Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchan relates to manmey kosh (sheat) of this being? 
- deep vichar on man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchan 
- deep vichar on 21th asatapadi of sukhmani sahib which starts with - sargun nirgun nirankar sun samadhi aap.. 
- deep vichar on full 8th asatpadi on bhramgyani. 
- vichar on bhramgyani sada sam drishti || bhramgyani di drisht amrit barsi ||. which amrit guru ji talking about? naam or gyan amrit? 
- Veechar on Nuo Nidh Amrit Prab Ka Naam Dehi Mein Iska Bisram || ? 
- Satnam mantar is it visheshan of vahiguroo(according to vikayaran) or mantar in itself? 
- Sat bhumika us baraie vichar. 

Here is the answer for above questions, 2nd part of this audio discussion with sant jagjit singh ji:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/discussion with sant jagjit singh ji part 2.mp3


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## sunsingh (Jul 30, 2008)

3rd part:

3rd part of discussion with sant jagjit singh ji...here are the questions:

- Vikayaran arth for satguru, sant.
-Samparda of sikh panth and their history
- sehaj avastha and nirvkalap samadhi
- is there yog kriya to stop kam vashna?
-Gristh marg ucha ja behingum marg
-Sehaj samadh and nirvakalp smadh.
Sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth sahib ji, sri sarbloh granth da tat nichor gyan.
-sri akal ustat/gyan probdh..questions and answers in sri akaal ustat and sri gyan probdh.
- gurbani existed before 1469...? Mira bhai rachna in kartarpur bir?
- updesh to new generation who are going towards katarvaad and shariavaad

right click, save target as:


http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/discussion with sant jagjit singh ji part 3.mp3


btw, Baba ji has arrived in Surrey, BC today. He will probably do katha at Gurdwara Amrit Prakash in Surrey in the evening


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## sunsingh (Aug 1, 2008)

Here you go part 4:

-How should one do analysis or vichaar on rehitnamas? There are some contents in rehitnamas which are not gurmat for example in prem sumarg granth. Turk can only initiate into khalsa when he/she eats soor(pork).

- There is a big division between monay veers and amritdhari sikhs? some amritdhari sikhs doesnt even interact with monay because they think they get their bibek broken or some amritdhari sikhs in camp use guilt trips(bhandi parchar) on monay to get them into the panth. Please share your views on this?

- is gyan(bodh)marg necessary to merge with vahiguroo or one can also merge with vahiguroo by doing nishkam seva and simran.

- some people who prefer vikayaran to translate gurbani beleive that if we don't interpret bani ie satguru pad arth, sant being guru sahib into one meaning then we are open to attacks of anti sikh forces using gurbani.

- some people divide sant pad in gurbani in two parts..they beleive sant pad upma in sukhmani sahib is referred to sri guru ram das ji...sant is avastha in gurbani ref to human but cannot be praised. True sant never let others bow down..they give example of baba karak singh having stick and sant jarnail singh didnt let others to matha taik?

- when gurbani gives updesh, its usually believed and its given to three types of people. Please share those three categories.

- What actually is maryada for darbar sahib before singh sabha lehar?

- In darbar before sgpc.. muslims rababi were allowed to do kirtan? How come they were removed? Also on that note, can non amritdhari can do kirtan in takth sahiban darbar? can non amritdhari can do kirtan in regular gurdwara sahib?

- What is status of baba sri chand maharaj in gurmat..difference between udasi marg and gurmat.

- Some people call arti arta at hazoor sahib an bhamanvaad/bhoot pooja an hindu ritual? whats your views on that?

- How come female bhramgyanis in the panth are not as transparent as male bhramgyanis?

- Please shed some light on birth of guru avtar an bhramgyanis?

- Please shed some light on theory of karam aligns with hakum rajie chalna?

- Can one merge with parbhram only after pralabdh karam ?

- Difference between atam anand, yog anand, dasam dvara anand?

Here are the answers:

Right click and save target as:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/discussion with sant jagjit singh ji part 4.mp3


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## sunsingh (Aug 1, 2008)

Sant Jagjit Singh ji does katha at Gurdwara Amrit Prakash in Surrey at 8 pm. He'll be in BC until the 11th when he leaves for Toronto. Baba ji will do kirpa in Toronto until the 16th.

If you wish to download the kathas just go to www.sikhawareness.com :: Index and download from the questions for baba jagjit singh ji thread.


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## sunsingh (Aug 2, 2008)

Here is the 5th part:

- is atamanand partibimbh(reflection) of atma?

- is bhramgyani mahapursh is always in atamgyan avastha even when they talking to regular people?

- There are three types of mahapursh. Daane, divane, mastane..are their internal avastha is same? Some premis criticize mastane mahapursh for not keeping 5 kakari rehit. Please shed some light on this.

- Bachan of maharaj: raj karega khalsa akai rahe no koi ,in this bachan is khalsa referred to one and only amritdhari khalsa, or khalsa as in bhramgyani regardless of any dharam ?

- all the bhagats which were included in sri guru granth sahib..were they all upasak of sargun saroop of vahiguroo ie- ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj or nirgun shabad upasak?

- What is the status/avastha of shaheed singh?, are they equivalent to christian version of angels or hindu version of devi devtas?

- In gurbani shabad mantar ie - gurmantar/mool mantar are they nirgun form or sargun form of vahiguru?

- is gurmat turiya avastha higher buddhist nirvana pad ?

- In gurbani, is there more upma of nirgun or sargun?

Answers:

right click and save target as:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/discussion with sant jagjit singh ji part 5.mp3


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## sunsingh (Aug 13, 2008)

6th part

- is there any difference between advait vedant and gurmat? some people say advait vedant is against prema bhagti towards vahiguroo because its upasana of one atma. Is Aham Bhramasami maha vak according to gurmat? any gurbani reference support this school of thought?

- If other dharamis, person can get to bedah mukht avastha or get to sachkhand, what was point of sri guru nanak dev ji bringing gursikhi and forming khalsa panth tisra panth?

- Various avtars existed before in pichale yugs ie- vasudev, ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj, sri guru nanak dev ji was pargat in kalyug. If gurbani accepts all the previous avtars and their panth being valid, therefore any premi who follows their mat fully can get mukhti doesnt this make sikhi snatan dharam like shaivism instead of tisra panth? what is it mean when sri guru gobind singh ji himself said in bachitar natak. Sri Akaal Purkh sent me to this world to create the panth?

- Gurbani existed before Guru Nanak, that means Gurmukhs existed before Guru Nanak, they are not his creation. Does that mean Sikhi gurmat marg is another samparda like Shaivism? and continuation of Sanathan Dharama (Eternal law from beginning)?

- Usually in sakhiya there is a sakhi of baba sri chand maharaj/Lakhmi Chand did not listen to sri guru nanak dev ji patsah hakums? and still got bhramgyan, does that mean bhramgyan is attainable outside sri guru nanak dev ji sikhi marg?

- When this jev get darshan of sargun guru maharaj saroop, after the darshan does that mean they get bedah mukht avastha?

- - can sikhs listen to sufi qwali which are sung in memory of allah or murshids?

- - The benefit (or not) of Akhand Paath culture - where 99% of those who pay for them to be done, turn up to to the start and the bhog, and think they will in someway be blessed. Does baba Ji feel that Sehaj Paath or Sudhaaran Paath is more beneifical to the parvaar and sangat as they can actually sit down and listen to it all?

- Can we do sargun dhiyan of sri guru nanak dev ji saroop? some people call this as baut pooja? 

Here are the answers:

Right click and save target as:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/discussion with sant jagjit singh ji part 6.mp3


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## pk70 (Aug 13, 2008)

*Sunsingh ji,
ONE QUESTION For Your revered Sant ji,
Kindly ask him as you are blessed to be close to him*
*Who was/is the love of Guru Nanak?
When one contemplates only at Guru Nanak, I see no difference between him/her or those who contemplate on other Devtas or Prophets. When one contemplates on HIM, one can see Guru Nanak too, Guru Nanak turned crazy( baora -SGGS 877)) for Him. That Nirgana Sroop worship is asential for Sikhs as per Gurbani. The state of mind where all difference of lightened ones and Him evaporates is learned through revering Guru ji through living his teachings( repeatedly teachings say" contemplate on His NAAM"), still His grace is vital, never forget that !*


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## sunsingh (Aug 14, 2008)

Sorry but unfortunately Baba ji has already left Canada.


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## sunsingh (Aug 14, 2008)

Here is the last part of discussions with sant jagjit singh ji..

questions:

- some people think when this jev get bedah mukht avastha or merge with
vahiguroo even then atma of this jev have some kind of paichaan?

- in gurbani there are bachans of how this sansar is mithiya but also
there are bachans of bhram eveywhere in this sansar.

- many sant bhramgyanis in past realse their body via smadhi, some
extreme pain or agony...can we distinguish them saying one had parlabdh
karam and another didnt had pralabdh karam?

-how does four khands related to avastha of this jev?

- concept of dasvand?

- Deep vichaar on haumai, it's relationship with mun (inc panj chor)
and atma, methods to reduce it etc...


- To do vichaar on Raagmala.

- In japji sahib there is bachan of maharaj that there are countless
khaniya but sri dasam granth sahib talks about four types of khaaniya?

- vichar on ik ongkar?

Here are the answers:

Right click and save target as:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/discussion with sant jagjit singh ji last part.mp3

Message to Sikh youths

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/message to sikh youths.mp3


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 15, 2008)

Gurfateh


pk70 said:


> *Sunsingh ji,*
> *ONE QUESTION For Your revered Sant ji,*
> *Kindly ask him as you are blessed to be close to him*
> *Who was/is the love of Guru Nanak?*
> *When one contemplates only at Guru Nanak, I see no difference between him/her or those who contemplate on other Devtas or Prophets. When one contemplates on HIM, one can see Guru Nanak too, Guru Nanak turned crazy( baora -SGGS 877)) for Him. That Nirgana Sroop worship is asential for Sikhs as per Gurbani. The state of mind where all difference of lightened ones and Him evaporates is learned through revering Guru ji through living his teachings( repeatedly teachings say" contemplate on His NAAM"), still His grace is vital, never forget that !*


 
Non of our Guru told us to worship body or persinality of the Guru nor does Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us to worship Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Akal is only God.And could not be tied with wills of man or text.


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## sunsingh (Aug 15, 2008)

Here are questions asked by this premi singh in BC:

- Is it a requirement to do simran with rasna (japping naam with tongue) at first stage?

- Diff. btw dhib dhrishti and dasam dwar? What happens when dasam dwar
opens?

- what is partakh darshan?

- what is naam dhan?

- how to reach stage of ajaapa jaap (when simran occurs automatically)?

- what is sukh nindra, samedhi? How to overcome obstacle of sukh nindra?

- what does it mean to be dead while still alive?

- how can we best absorb gurmat and put into practice?

- is it ok to do ardass to soul b/c soul is one with god?

- what are seven stages of gian?

- is it ok to eat from sehajdhari sikhs, or only gursikhs ok?

- how can we avoid loss of naam kamai?

- vichaar on shabad "sant ki marag dharm ki pauri"?

- If some sort of praapti is not written for us in our karms, can we still obtain this praapti in this janam?

- Do we still need shastar vidya, as in modern times we have modern weaponry such as guns?

- Baba Attar Singh ji Mastauna did bhagti for one year without eating, how is this possible?

- Must we have bhramgian to be free from taking rebirth (jivanmukti) ?

- Did Baba Nand Singh ji really say that one gets greater Naam kamai when staying awake the whole night before pooranmashi doing Abhyaas?

- Do shaheeds get mukti?

- Are there such paaps that cannot be erased?

- How big a paap is suicide?

- If we do ardass for someone's rakhya, to help someone deal with illness etc., does it put the weight on our heads? Does it eat up our Naam kamai?


Here are the answers:

Right click and save target as:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwarenes... in bc.mp3


I hope everyone enjoy listening to baba jagjit singh vichar on these questions, these audio files have no copyright, any premis who wishes to put them on their site, surely can. As Gurbani say- bhramgyani di drisht amrit barsi || similiarly these veechar is one form of rain of amrit reaches out to everyone with no dvaish.

Personally speaking for me it has been extreme pleasure talking to sant jagjit singh ji, their bachans surely calm my heart/mind from all this burning irkha/dvaish bhavna... it has been pure anandmangal...!

-www.sikhawareness.com


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## sunsingh (Aug 15, 2008)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> 
> Non of our Guru told us to worship body or persinality of the Guru nor does Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us to worship Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Akal is only God.And could not be tied with wills of man or text.



Nirgun worship is the highest form. However, like a child learning how to ride a bike using training wheels, sargun worship is sometimes a must for some people starting out on this path as nirgun worship is simply beyond them. nirgun worship should be the goal and mode for sikhs. According to Gurbani, there is no difference between God and Guru, therefore for people to not only see the Guru as divine and do sargun worship is only natural, although it is a temporary stage moving to a higher stage.


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## pk70 (Aug 16, 2008)

Nirgun worship is the highest form. However, like a child learning how to ride a bike using training wheels, sargun worship is sometimes a must for some people starting out on this path as nirgun worship is simply beyond them. nirgun worship should be the goal and mode for sikhs. According to Gurbani, there is no difference between God and Guru, therefore for people to not only see the Guru as divine and do sargun worship is only natural, although it is a temporary stage moving to a higher stage. ( quote sunsingh ji)

*I am just wondering if Guru ji asks Sikhs to go for first Sargun Sroop, after some time, then go for Nirgan sroop?  Our Guru Granth sahib ji starts with Nirgun Sroop, through  out Jap Ji Sahib, Guru ji advises us to contemplate only on HIM through Guru, only longing for Him is advocated. Should we follow that or those Guru Shabad where due to enlightenment obtained by Guru ji with His grace, sargun Sroop Guru is addressed as of His part. Should we stop there ignoring HIM? I have never read so loud cry- prayer for Nirgun Sroop in any religious scripture including the ancient ones( Vedas etc).* *I checked them recently, like  running in a cycle they come back to Sargun sroop only. It is only Sree Guru Granth Sahib  ji that advocates only His worship, for this, Guru we take our solely support. Vijaydeep Singh seems pretty much right here as per Gurbani.* *Guru Seva and Guru pooja is living Guru's teachings strictly.*


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## Astroboy (Aug 16, 2008)

Nirgun niroop hai, sundar swaroop hai, bhupan ke bhoop hai, data maha daan hai,
Praan ke devaiya, dhoodh poot ke devaiya


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 17, 2008)

Gurfateh

One humble question from das.

As Gurmat is to worship formless as being in all form.He are purly khalsa who recogansie Nakashis ie purely God.Then why to emulate Hinduism in us ie by worshipping Guru's persionlity or say worshipping Guru Granth Sahib Ji,beholding Akal bounded by the text.Is is not OK for worshpper of formed one to revert to worship lord Rama or Lord Krishna.

Did not Tenth Master said,"whoso ever call me God will be lake of hell".

Did not in Chaubees Avatar of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib has the fact that Akal puts blame to all avtaras and stay behind.Why not worship that one.
(that is not the Mahakal realted to god shiva as in Shiv Purana,we have Shiva taking an incarnation of Mahakal at ujjain.While over here in Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji,we have that on order of Akal Mahakal ,who is formless,never born,Vishnu takes the Avtar of Rudra/Shiva,this Shiv further takes some other incanrations.Mahakal is incarantion of this shiva and not mentioned in Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji but in Shiv Purana,term in Vammarg or Tantircs is Mahakal Bhairav with wife as Bhairavi).

So kio Simro Nanaka Jame Te Mar Jaye.Eko Simaro nanaka Jo Jal Thal Reah Samai.(Sorry for spelling or verbal mistakes).


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## sunsingh (Aug 17, 2008)

Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib ji = Guru = God. To recognize this does not in any way limit worship or understanding of God to sargun only.  God is both nirgun and sargun. Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that worship of the sargun aspect of waheguru is wrong. Nirgun is the highest and that is what is emphasized. However, it is beyond some people's buddhi to understand nirgun and for them it is perfectly acceptable to start out with sargun.


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## sunsingh (Aug 17, 2008)

please provide even the slightest shred of proof from Gurbani backing up your assertion. Gurbani states that God exists in sargun as well as nirgun, see japji sahib for the examples, or numerous other shabads. Nowhere is sargun remembrance considered wrong. 
Baba Jagjit Singh ji, a student of bhramgyani Baba Jawala Singh ji, after stuying Gurmat his whole life certainly understands this better than people who criticise but are unable to provide statements from Gurbani to back themselves up. 

Naturally there will be many statements in Gurbani supporting nirgun pooja, as this is superior and Guru's preferred way, nowhere in the katha is this contradicted, in fact it is stated as well. But support for nirgun pooja does not equal criticism of sargun. God exists in both.


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## pk70 (Aug 17, 2008)

*There is no criticism of any one you talk about, no Baba ji or Sant ji is questioned, what I posted above is from Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji, nothing is mine, If some Sikhs have guts to ignore Guru ji, so it be, I just couldnt.where it is stated in Japji that worship Sargun Sroop first? What  does Guru say? Guru gives His NAAM, Guru wants from us to contemplate on HIM, should I follow Guru ji or others? Here is what Guru wants from his SIKHS, this is Guru  teaching( UPDESH), Therefore Guru is my Braham -Gyani, Guru is my refuge, my journey ends at Guru Ji*,* Tenth Nanak says" if any one calls me God, hell to Him" How dare I disobey Guru's Hukam. All enlightened ones become like HIM eventually( Mehla-1), should we worship all enlightened ones as God too*? *Sargun Sroop worshiping was already prevailing before Guru ji coming, Guru ji put a stop to it. I havent come cross a Vaak that states, start with Sargun Sroop any where in Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, HERE IS GURU UPDESH*,* any doubt left by Guru ji? NONE*.
ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ 
Gur saṯgur kā jo sikẖ akẖā*ė so bẖalkė uṯẖ har nām ḏẖi*āvai. 
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. 
ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰਿਨਾਵੈ ॥ 
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. (  OF NAME)
ਉਪਦੇਸਿਗੁਰੂਹਰਿਹਰਿਜਪੁਜਾਪੈਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਦੋਖ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ 
Upḏės gurū har har jap jāpai sabẖ kilvikẖ pāp ḏokẖ leh jāvai. 
Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased. 
ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀਗਾਵੈਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਵੈ॥ 
Fir cẖaṛai ḏivas gurbāṇī gāvai bahḏi*ā uṯẖ*ḏi*ā har nām ḏẖi*āvai. 
Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name. 
ਜੋ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਏਮੇਰਾਹਰਿਹਰਿਸੋਗੁਰਸਿਖੁਗੁਰੂਮਨਿਭਾਵੈ॥ 
Jo sās girās ḏẖi*ā*ė mėrā har har so gursikẖ gurū man bẖāvai. 
One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.(SGGS 305)


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## sunsingh (Aug 17, 2008)

All of the Gurbani you have qouted does not condemn or even mention sargun worship. Absence of discussion on sargun worship does not equal condemnation. God exists in both sargun and nirgun forms. Worship of God in sargun or nirgun is allowed, but nirgun is emphasized as it is superior. Sargun was never stopped by the Guru, please provide direct evidence of this from Gurbani if you disagree, although I assure you, there is none. 

I have never said sargun worship is required. Just that if can be used, and is helpful for those unable to concentrate on nirgun form of God. What are we going to do for those people who are unable to focus on nirgun???  Do we just leave them behind and will help only be provided for those who can do nirgun bhagti? No - that is not in line with sarbat da bhalla, Guru ji helps all, including those who lack the abiilty to do nirgun bhagti. 

btw, Gurbani call Guru ji God himself in numerous places. There is no difference. Guru ji is God as Gurbani cannot contradict itself. Guru Nanak Dev ji himself is sargun saroop of Waheguru. IF I go to hell for speaking the truth about my Guru ji it's worth it.


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## Astroboy (Aug 18, 2008)

> Gurbani is spiritually alive, and therefore has multidimensional and multiple meanings while never in contradiction. It speaks to EVERY heart. I find the people who think they have the "one true way" usually are the most hard, and the most lost. The Truth is One. But the ways to reaching truth are multiple.
> 
> Why does Gurbani so many times say niragun saragun? Clearly because they are aspects of the One totality. One is not over the other. One is hidden, and one is perceived.


:happy:

The way I perceive it, sargun is nature of the three lower worlds - the realm of maya from which springs the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. They are not beyond the regions of time and space. That's why they keep on re-incarnating because they cannot get mukti. Anybody following them cannot cross the borders into the lights of Sat Lok. 

Guru Nanak says, 
Jay sao chanda ughvai,
Sooraj Charray Hajjar,
Eitay Channan Hundiya,
Gur Bin Ghor Andhar.

Only Guru (who is beyond the clutches of Maya,) can take souls out of the cycle of trans-migration. The realm of Brahma - mind region is so bright that its brilliancy exceeds a thousand suns and moons. But this brilliance is nothing (darkness) in comparison to Sach Khand. Without a guru, Brahma's region is mesmerizing enough to trap soul for eons, making one think that this is the final destination which we call home. Do you remember the story of the eagle raised in the chicken pen ?


Brahm in Sikhism should not be confused with the Hindu notion of Brahman, the Absolute or Highest Reality. Brahm here refers to the lord which has jurisdiction only over the phenomenal world. Moreover, the Guru's conception of the Transcendent God is not equivalent with Brahman. The five realms in Japji Sahib are comparable to the gnostic notion of a Transcendent God. 

In _The Gospel of the Egyptians _reference to the _five seals _appears at leastsix times. The writer announces:
     The five seals...the Father brought forth from his bosom, and she [the soul] passed [through] all the aeons ... They who are worthy of (the) invocation, the renounciations of the five seals ... these will know their receivers as they are instructed about them. and the will know them (or: be known) by them. These will be no means taste death. 

    The "mysteries of the Kingdom" (i.e., the names of the heavenly powers, etc.) are revealed, according to the Gnostics, by the _Son, _who has descended the inner realms and taken human form to explain these divine secrets. The adherents or initiates are named _Sons of Light _and alone are taught the path of light and sound and the "imperishable names." As one Gnostic puts it:
   The Son who is perfect in every respect--that is, the Word who originated through that Voice...who was within him the Name; who is Light--he [the Son] revealed the everlasting things and all the unknowns were known. And those things difficult to interpret and secret, he revealed, and as for those who dwell in Silence...he preached to them. And he revealed himself to those who dwell in darkness, and he showed himself to those who dwell in the abyss, and to those who dwell in the hidden treasuries he told ineffable mysteries, and he taught unrepeatable doctrines to all those who became Sons of the Light.

_The Apocryphon of John, _the writer proclaims:   He [God] is [illimitable] since there is no one [prior to him] to set limits to him. He is unsearchable [since there] exists no one prior to him to [examine him. He is] immeasurable since there [was] no one [prior to him to measure,] him. [He is invisible since no] one saw [him. He is eternal] since he [exists] eternally. He is [ineffable since] no one was able to comprehend him to speak [about him]. He is unnamable since [there is no one prior to him] to give [him] a name ... He is ineffable...He is neither large [nor] small. [Mere is no] way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What [is his quality?'], for no one can [know him].

Tulsi Das elucidates:   From Sat Nam [the Highest Being] has emanated Brahm ... Not knowing the reality, people have thus described Brahm: The one without attributes, formless and infinite; Also, the dispenser of justice and free from delusion. These qualities the ignorant attribute to Brahm. And him the world worships with all devotion. The ten incarnations come from Brahm, the world looks Upon him as Nirgun. 
He, in turn, has created the worlds physical and astral. Thus the world hails Brahm as the Supreme Lord. It recognizes not the path leading to the Ultimate.     

For the Gnostics there are two versions of the salvation scheme: 1) the "elect" alone will be saved, and 2) all souls _eventually _will return to the "Realm of Light."     There is yet another version to the Gnostic elect theme. Instead of asuperior class "saved by nature" versus those whose fate is doomed from the start, all souls will eventually be saved. Souls who possess knowledge _(gnosis) _can immediately return to God and those who do not will be sent "back again into the world according to _the form of the sins _that it may have committed," 

    The doctrine of reincarnation is found throughout Gnostic literature. For instance, in _The Apocryphon of John _the Gnostic (in the voice of John) "plains that if souls at the time of death "have not known to whom they belong" these souls will be cast down into the prison house of creation, overpowered again with "forgetfulness...until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if it becomes perfect*, *it is saved."

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/gnostic4.html


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 18, 2008)

Gurfateh


sunsingh said:


> Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib ji = Guru = God. To recognize this does not in any way limit worship or understanding of God to sargun only. God is both nirgun and sargun. Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that worship of the sargun aspect of waheguru is wrong. Nirgun is the highest and that is what is emphasized. However, it is beyond some people's buddhi to understand nirgun and for them it is perfectly acceptable to start out with sargun.


 Bro kindly refer to Charitro Pakhyan 266 of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji.

Also first Chapter of Vachitar Natak and First Part of Akal Ustat.Likewise when poet gives linage of holy people coming before him.

There should be no doubt that people worshipping saguna will get salvation as it is in the hand of Akal only and Akal only makes them worship Saguna.

But term Sargun is not Saguna.Sargun is dervied from Sarv Guna(plural) ie all qualities
so Nirguna ie no single qulity(as all qulties rest as Akal is in all).Sa(with) guna(one or more guna) applies for things taking birth or visible demigods. 

Das hopes that Sants should read Shri Dasham Guru Darbar and Shri Sarbloh Guru Darbar. Das agrees that with only following Guru Granth Sahib Ji,there will be a scope to going after Saguna god or living Guru.What das writes,writes as per tredtion of Nihung Singhs.We tolrate saguna worshiping Nirmalas or Udasis.We respect them.We have Bhagat Dhanna in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

But in Charitropakhyan 266 we are told.How could be a stone trapped in vagina ie Shiva could eb God or how could one turned into stone by curse of female demon(tulsi) be God ie Vishnu.One Charitropakhyan is dedicated to lady fooling Brhama.

Then Gyan Prabodh has Laxmi,PArvati and Sarswati worshipping limitless.In Akal ustat we are told that there are many demigodess and half virgins(Adi Kuari).

In Krishna Avtar we have been told that I do not cajole Ganesha first.

Then at a place we are told(das forgets the part of Shri Dasham Guru Darbar) that sun is only the witness and fools worshp that.

In old Puranic faith we have 5 sects and five are told not for Khalsa.
Vaishnav(Vishnu worshippers),Shaiv(Shiva worshippers),Shakt(demigodess worshipper)Ganpatya(Ganesha worshiper) and Saura(sun worshiiper).

Ancestors of Sants like Tara Singh Nirotam did not agree that Shri Sarbloh Guru Darbar is work of Tenth Master(reason he gace was Roop deep Bhkha Pingle text being mentjoned in this which was made after 18 years of Gurus going to Sachkhand,but das says that if it was completed within 20 years so Guru could know about it). 

Mahant Mula Singh was one who removed the Prakash of Shri Dasham Guru Darbar form Shri Akal Takhat Sahib,Right side of weapans await to go to origeon position.

Akal Bless.


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## sunsingh (Aug 18, 2008)

vir ji, Baba Jagjit Singh ji is actually considered one of the most learned scholars in the panth, and has extensive knowledge of Dasam Bani and Sarbloh Bani. He does not promote sargun worship, but heavily promotes nirgun worship. He merely stated that  worship by placing dhyain on sargun  is allowed. In context of sikh dharm, people use techniques such as focusing on a portrait of the Guru, focusing on the star painted on his feet, these are concentration techniques only. Others, such as nanaksaris, worship (i have heard) by putting dhian on Guru Granth Sahib ji. 

Since there is considerable confusion on this point, I recommend people re-listen to his answers to the questions. Questions regarding sargun are asked a few times over the course of the recordings.

Here is one of his answers to a question someone asked about sargun last year:

sargun dhyaan is just an way to stop your mind wandering around, and to make your mind subtle attuned to meditation. Ultimately, dhyaan should merge in nirgun. Sargun upasana/dhyaan is also one of the way to get mukhti. Sant ji said, first mind have to make sakar(akar) dhyaan then nirakar avastha comes, then one have to take dhyaan out from sakar(akar/form) and then attach it towards nirakar. It takes time, Why not in beginning to save time have the dhyaan towards niraakar via shabad?

Hope that clarifies things.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 18, 2008)

Gurfateh

Peace and surender brother from das's side.

In Sants das respect if they try to have Dhayana(meditation) by Sagun roop but there are ways to have Dhyan to formless also.

Date Daat Rakhi Hath Apnai Jis Bhve Tis Deye.Nanak Naam Rate Sukh Paya Dargreh Jape Seyee.

So both ways are from Akal.


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## Jaspreet08 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks for the mp3 posts, Sunsinghji. Very helpful.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 19, 2008)

Gurfateh

Can we deem Panth Khalsa as Saguba Saroop of Akal.Das finds proof of it in Sarbloh Guru Darbar.

Why not serve the universe in which Akal lives,is this not the worship of Akal?why not serve PAnth Khalsa is this not worship of Akal?


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2008)

*Warning to participants. This topic can be discussed without judging the individuals making arguments on various sides of the issue. Closing threads is not an ideal solution when a topic is a rich with information and vichaar as this thread has been.  In addition, each and every mention of the nirgun form of the Satguru does not have to entail a detailed examination of the role of Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, and other members of the Hindu pantheon. When this happens it derails the discussion. So let's stick to the thread topic. A second warning will be accompanied by measures that may include but are not limited to temporary closing of the thread, moving individual comments to a more relevant location, etc.

Some posts on this thread have been either deleted or moved. 

Thank you*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 21, 2008)

> _In addition, each and every mention of the nirgun form of the Satguru does not have to entail a detailed examination of the role of Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, and other members of the Hindu pantheon. _


As the sant was discussing these topics in his taped vichaar, it was highly relevant to the discussion, and remains as always, a point of absolute and utter intolerance among mainstream Sikhs.  For example, every thread of my contribution has been moved with new warning issued, and the last post deleted.  This is real intellectual cowardice, and most particularly glaring since I was not the one judging individuals and making personal insults as to character.  Yet I am the one moved, accused of derailing, and deleted, as always.

FYI, thosands of times Gurbani discusses the devas.  Therefore, they cannot be "Hindu," and must necessarily be an essential part of Gurmat teaching.  Further, since Gurbani itself is highlighting the nature of sarguna, and this is the topic point under contention, your accusations of derailment are unsustained and simply false smokescreen to delete and punish an unwelcome viewpoint.  How can SIKHS ever understand the nature of sarguna if we are not allowed to freely talk about it by analyzing the many varied interpretations of the Gurbani which discuss it?  Do you have some delusion that Gurbani of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is better discussed on Hindu forums?  Because what we are discussing is many tuuks and pauris of GURBANI.

So why be afraid of it?  Why moderate, penalize, delete, insult, attack all the time?  Why can't people just accept there are, and have been DIFFERENT traditions within Sikhi?  Because that is the absolute truth.




> _So let's stick to the thread topic. A second warning will be accompanied by measures that may include but are not limited to temporary closing of the thread, moving individual comments to a more relevant location, etc.
> 
> Some posts on this thread have been either deleted or moved._


So when I am personally insulted on a thread, discussing relevant issues of controversy within the topic, I get deleted and warned, but not the person who makes the personal attacks.

You really need a mirror to analyze your extreme bias and fear of alternate viewpoints.  Because that kind of censorship is really a bad reflection on the generosity and richness of Gurbani.


Or are you proposing a discussion about sanatan issues by a sant are somehow derailed by discussing the very topic issues mentioned by his vichaar?  Are you proposing that discussion of the Gurbani itself is somehow anti-Sikh?  Are you suggesting that it would be better to delete all references to the Gurbani which does not suit the Singh Sabha censorship and thus intend to remove the thousandsw of references to devas from Gurmat?



> _Some posts on this thread have been either deleted or moved._


Thank you yet again for silencing what you can't handle.  Strange behavior for a chela of the Guru who wrote what you delete.


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji

Thank you for your clarification. The topic of the thread is about conversations with Sant Jagit Singh ji Harkhowal.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 21, 2008)

> _The topic of the thread is about conversations with Sant Jagit Singh ji Harkhowal._


The topic of the thread is broader than one persons discussions but surely includes the posted commentary which the sant discussed.


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