# Literal Meaning Of Gurbani



## Daanveer

*Literal Meaning of Gurbani*​ 


*Gurbani is dear to many. Some read Gurbani every day, some as a rehat, some read it occassionaly. *​ 
*I have noticed some people question the acceptance of the literal meaning of Gurbani. I am surprised to see that happening even under 'GURMAT VICHAAR' Section.*​ 
*If we say that literal meaning is wrong: Isn't that imply that we are saying-GURU IS LYING.*​ 
*CAN A TRUE GURU LIE TO HIS FOLLOWERS?*​ 
*In my neechan neech budhi- GURU IS RIGHT IN LITERAL SENSE.*​ 
*If anybody is telling me a meaning that does't go in line with the literal meaning of that Gurbani Line- CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS GURMAT.*​ 
*For Example:*​ 
_ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
_गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
_Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
_Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_​ 
*Any* *person who knows Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, khari boli will tell you that it tells us- Guru Nanak is God Himself*. *So Guru is telling us- GURU NANAK IS LORD HIMSELF.*

*If somebody comes to us and tells us, No it is the literal meaning, He cant be God.*

*Should I listen to him/her or My Guru?*

*Obviously my Guru: GURU KNOWS BETTER THAN US AND HIM/HER.*

*LITERAL MEANING IS ALWAYS RIGHT- INTERPRETATION HAS TO GO IN LINE WITH THE LITERAL MEANING.*


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## carolineislands

Daanveer said:


> *Literal Meaning of Gurbani*​
> 
> 
> *Gurbani is dear to many. Some read Gurbani every day, some as a rehat, some read it occassionaly. *​
> *I have noticed some people question the acceptance of the literal meaning of Gurbani. I am surprised to see that happening even under 'GURMAT VICHAAR' Section.*​
> *If we say that literal meaning is wrong: Isn't that imply that we are saying-GURU IS LYING.*​
> *CAN A TRUE GURU LIE TO HIS FOLLOWERS?*​
> *In my neechan neech budhi- GURU IS RIGHT IN LITERAL SENSE.*​
> *If anybody is telling me a meaning that does't go in line with the literal meaning of that Gurbani Line- CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS GURMAT.*​
> *For Example:*​
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so*ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_​
> *Any* *person who knows Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, khari boli will tell you that it tells us- Guru Nanak is God Himself*. *So Guru is telling us- GURU NANAK IS LORD HIMSELF.*
> 
> *If somebody comes to us and tells us, No it is the literal meaning, He cant be God.*
> 
> *Should I listen to him/her or My Guru?*
> 
> *Obviously my Guru: GURU KNOWS BETTER THAN US AND HIM/HER.*
> 
> *LITERAL MEANING IS ALWAYS RIGHT- INTERPRETATION HAS TO GO IN LINE WITH THE LITERAL MEANING.*



I am new to Sikhi and it seems from the largest percentage of posts on this topic that most of the people (at least on this board) believe that Guru IS God and that there is no difference.  That says to me that Sikhs actually DO believe that Guru Nanak was God incarnate.  Which logically would prove that Sikhs (at least some Sikhs) actually DO worship the Guru as God.  In which case, new people coming in who ask this question should be told the truth about it.  When I first came in I asked if Sikhs worship Guru and see Guru as God and was told no, they do not.  Now I'm thinking, but they DO.

So my suggestion is that when new people come in asking if you worship Guru as God and believe there is no difference between Guru and God, you should tell them yes.  You believe Guru IS God.  In which case the general perception that Sikhi is the most pure monotheism might not actually be accurate.

I mean no disrespect, so I apologize if anyone is offended by this.


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## spnadmin

Caroline ji

These two comments back and forth then raise another question 

Who is Guru -- of course also answered on several other threads.

When new people are told that Guru is God will they know what "Guru" refers to? Or is it better for new people to go  through an evolving process to understand the idea of "Guru? The process of discussion, reflection, re-thinking, and questioning may be a way to make a complicated idea in the end something that one understands in all of its complexity.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

Daanveer said:


> *Literal Meaning of Gurbani*​
> 
> 
> 
> *Gurbani is dear to many. Some read Gurbani every day, some as a rehat, some read it occassionaly. *​
> *I have noticed some people question the acceptance of the literal meaning of Gurbani. I am surprised to see that happening even under 'GURMAT VICHAAR' Section.*​
> *If we say that literal meaning is wrong: Isn't that imply that we are saying-GURU IS LYING.*​
> *CAN A TRUE GURU LIE TO HIS FOLLOWERS?*​
> *In my neechan neech budhi- GURU IS RIGHT IN LITERAL SENSE.*​
> *If anybody is telling me a meaning that does't go in line with the literal meaning of that Gurbani Line- CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS GURMAT.*​
> *For Example:*​
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_​
> *Any* *person who knows Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, khari boli will tell you that it tells us- Guru Nanak is God Himself*. *So Guru is telling us- GURU NANAK IS LORD HIMSELF.*
> 
> *If somebody comes to us and tells us, No it is the literal meaning, He cant be God.*
> 
> *Should I listen to him/her or My Guru?*
> 
> *Obviously my Guru: GURU KNOWS BETTER THAN US AND HIM/HER.*
> 
> *LITERAL MEANING IS ALWAYS RIGHT- INTERPRETATION HAS TO GO IN LINE WITH THE LITERAL MEANING.*


 
Danveer ji,

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
_गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
_Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
_Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_

_If you care to give the tuk another glance you my have a different experience. The ending word is  _ਸੋਇ and NOT ਸੋਈ. 

_If it were the latter then I would have whole heartedly agreed with you. Many who along with you think that during the presence of Guru Nanak Dev ji on this Earth that He was God, I can categorically say this that you are all wrong. Once the soul mearges with God then it becomes God and cannot be seperated. Then there is no Guru Nanak but God Himself. The translation should be as follows:_
_ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ = Nanak the Guru _
_ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __ = Nanak also belongs to the Lord. (He is also of the Hari hence __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __. if it were written as __ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ _ਸੋਈ t_hen one would have translated as "He is the HAR". None of the Gurus have laid claims that they were God. It is a grave misunderstanding of Sikhs. I can sympathise with those whose mother tongue is not Punjabi  but  those whose mother tongue is Punjabi they need to brush-up thier knowledge before making these statements._

_Ekmusafir_ajnabi_


​


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## Daanveer

*Caroline Ji,*
*I haven't said that there are multiple Gods. *

*Monothism: meaning Believe in One God. Guru tells us the same thing. Guru Ji explains very clearly this over and over again. Calling 'Guru is God', doesn’t lead me neechan neech to think that there are more than one God. If it's leading you to believe that- Waheguru help you.*

*Truth is truth, remain the same: Guru Nanak is God Himself.*

*Here is another one in the same context:*
*"Jot Roop **HAR**Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"*
SGGS, *Ang (1408)*

*"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"*

*Ek Ji,*

*Guru is not limited to a body made of flesh and blood Ek Ji. *
*BRAHMGYANI AAP PARMESAR.*

*EK JI – I NEVER SAID IT IS Soei with Bari EE Di Matraa=Bihaari. It seems like you are teaching some new grammer rules- when were they made?*
*Or is this Punjabi some different language, and Punjab somewhere else: other than northern India?*

*And my mother tongue is Punjabi(spoken in PUNJAB-INDIA). And I am in that Punjab 50% of the time, speaking and teaching SHUDH PUNJABI, nowadays. Before I was in the same Punjab solely for 61 years. *

*SABH GOBIND HAI SABH GOBIND HAI*


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## carolineislands

With all due respect, the misunderstanding could be because of language differences.  I do not speak Punjabi and am a native English speaker with only English and Caribbean French languages at my command.  I do see that many of the concepts in Sikhi are UNwestern enough that it takes a little effort on the part of those of us who aren't raised in Sikhi to grasp them.  I also am coming from a background in which a religion that claims to be monotheistic has taken their founder (Jesus) and elevated him to the level of God, calling him God in the flesh.  It seems that Jesus never really meant to be thought of as God from his teachings and yet people have elevated him to actually be one and the same with God.  Therefore they have created a concept very similar to the one I am reading here about Guru and God as one.

And yet there are some very learned Sikhs who do not agree that Guru IS God.  Many believe that God is in Guru and God is in us but neither Guru Nanak OR any other human IS actually God.

This Sikhs don't agree on this topic, obviously.  Which is just a part of being human and understanding things in different ways.

Now, from what little I have learned so far about the message of Guru Nanak, he taught that each person should question and seek for understanding and praise and worship only God and that human beings, even though we have part of God IN us, are all fallible and lowly.  That we are powerless without God.  I also understand Guru Nanak's message to be very inclusive and non-judgemental in that no one person is to be declaring what is true and correct to another, but that each person comes to truth in their own way, thus the concept of all religions belonging to God even though they have so many different (and seemingly conflicting) ways of understanding God and practicing their faith.

But I am a native English speaker and I'm sure there is much about Gurbani that I will never fully understand.  What is important to me is that God is not limited in the message of the Guru, and the limitless God is adored and sought after with all the heart.  And I also love the inclusiveness of Sikhi.  

I will always be a little sceptical of concepts that elevate human beings to the level of God.  I personally don't believe that Guru Nanak meant to be elevated in that way as his writings seem very humble and always point to the singularity of Waheguru and the lowliness of humanity.

Ekmusafir's post seems to have evidence that Guru Nanak did NOT mean to be elevated to the level of God.


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## Pyramid

Daanveer said:


> *Literal Meaning of Gurbani*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gurbani is dear to many. Some read Gurbani every day, some as a rehat, some read it occassionaly. *​
> *I have noticed some people question the acceptance of the literal meaning of Gurbani. I am surprised to see that happening even under 'GURMAT VICHAAR' Section.*​
> *If we say that literal meaning is wrong: Isn't that imply that we are saying-GURU IS LYING.*​
> *CAN A TRUE GURU LIE TO HIS FOLLOWERS?*​
> *In my neechan neech budhi- GURU IS RIGHT IN LITERAL SENSE.*​
> *If anybody is telling me a meaning that does't go in line with the literal meaning of that Gurbani Line- CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS GURMAT.*​
> *For Example:*​
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_​
> *Any* *person who knows Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, khari boli will tell you that it tells us- Guru Nanak is God Himself*. *So Guru is telling us- GURU NANAK IS LORD HIMSELF.*
> 
> *If somebody comes to us and tells us, No it is the literal meaning, He cant be God.*
> 
> *Should I listen to him/her or My Guru?*
> 
> *Obviously my Guru: GURU KNOWS BETTER THAN US AND HIM/HER.*
> 
> *LITERAL MEANING IS ALWAYS RIGHT- INTERPRETATION HAS TO GO IN LINE WITH THE LITERAL MEANING.*


 
Very Well Said.

There will always be people who wont read Gurbani themselves to find the truth. 
Like the example you have given: I cant even count times Guru Ji says that Guru/God Oriented/Saint/Brahmgyani is God Himself. There is no distinction at all between Guru and God. Guru Ji has confirmed this in many different ways.
About this question in general:'Is Guru God?': Guru Ji answers every question of a seeker in very plain words. He has said this many many times and many many ways that Guru is God, No difference between God Oriented and God. 
Many Many times words 'Guru' and 'God' is used interchangebly: A PRACTICAL DISPLAY OF THE TRUTH-no distiction between Guru and God.

HE NEVER SAYS EVEN A SINGLE TIME: There is a difference between Guru and God.

Literal Meaning cant change- like this one is:
Hum Kookar Tere Darbaar, Bhonkay aagay badan pasaar.
Can the explanation change what is being said-No.

Who can change Guru's Word- No one.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Pyramid

The same concept is repeated several different ways. So there cant be a chance of error at all. 

Danveer Ji,

Even regarding the translations in english and Punjabi, I see that you get the idea - the essence- what is being said by Guru Ji.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Pyramid

Daanveer said:


> *Here is another one in the same context:*
> *"Jot Roop **HAR**Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"*
> SGGS, *Ang (1408)*
> 
> *"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"*
> 
> *SABH GOBIND HAI SABH GOBIND HAI*


 
This is another one goes with the first example.
Good.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

Daanveer said:


> *Here is another one in the same context:*
> *"Jot Roop **HAR**Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"*
> SGGS, *Ang (1408)*
> 
> *"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"*
> 
> *Ek Ji,*
> 
> *Guru is not limited to a body made of flesh and blood Ek Ji. *
> *BRAHMGYANI AAP PARMESAR.*
> 
> *EK JI – I NEVER SAID IT IS Soei with Bari EE Di Matraa=Bihaari. It seems like you are teaching some new grammer rules- when were they made?*
> *Or is this Punjabi some different language, and Punjab somewhere else: other than northern India?*
> 
> *And my mother tongue is Punjabi(spoken in PUNJAB-INDIA). And I am in that Punjab 50% of the time, speaking and teaching SHUDH PUNJABI, nowadays. Before I was in the same Punjab solely for 61 years. *
> 
> *SABH GOBIND HAI SABH GOBIND HAI*




*Daanveer ji,

Here is another one in the same context:*
*"Jot Roop **HAR**Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"*
SGGS, *Ang (1408)

Being in Punjab does not necessarily mean that you will understand SGGS. What you have quoted above is a verse from the *Page1408  Line 10  Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Arjan Dev:by  Mathura

Swaeyea's are a part of SGGS that is a contribution by enlightened people in praise of our Gurus. These are the heart felt expressions of those individuals. Just  as you are adamant at calling Guru Nanak Dev ji God. That is fine as long as you declare it to be your expression. It is an expression of your love. Perhaps if every one say things your way we would have not arguments. But that is not to say that what you say is the truth. You have based on the quote above expressing your view that Guru Nanak is God. I would go a step further a say we are all gods. Why? Because we are all part of the same light, The Jyot that we will all merge back into. They only difference is that Guru Nanak is a realised soul and we are not but are progressing towards that state. Now you may take offense at this statement. Just as if you decide to name West as East, the Sun is not going to change directions for you.

So please be rational in your discussion and keep your emotions abay.  If  we all start calling Guru Nanak Dev ji as God .  Then  what is the problem in accepting "Ram" as God  or "Krishna" as God and so on. It is all about ones state of mind.

Spirituality is a progression and is based on "poorav janam" past lives. SGGS is a vast Ocean where the deeper you go the more precious the Jewels you are likely to find. Ones understanding becomes more mature. Where you currently see things from, will change in the future only if you keep an open mind. Conversely you can create a niche Well for you self and live a life of pretense. I respect your views, this is how you see things and you have the right to express them as you wish.

Now at this point,  I may say to you

"Gur parmesar eko jaan". I am not saying it is equal  (that would be "Gur parmesar eko mann" - there is a difference ) but  "assume it to be" or "accept it" or "Let it be so" and move forward rather than halting your progress.

My sincere apollogies if any of the above causes you any offense.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Pyramid

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Now at this point, I may say to you
> 
> "Gur parmesar eko jaan". I am not saying it is equal (that would be "Gur parmesar eko mann" - there is a difference ) but "assume it to be" or "accept it" or "Let it be so" and move forward rather than halting your progress.
> 
> My sincere apollogies if any of the above causes you any offense.
> 
> Ekmusafir_ajnabi


 
Ekmusafir_ajnabi Ji,

Good Explanation.

In the end it did sum up to- Let it be so- "God and Guru is ONE"

=, let it be so, accept it, assume it to be so, equal: ALL POINT TO "IS"

Thankyou very much.



It makes sense.

Dont change the truth, let it be so, God and Guru is same, No Distinction.
Antar Guru Aradhanaa, Jehba Jap Gur Naao, Netree Satguru Pekhna Swarnee Sunanaa Gur Nao Satguru Seitee Rataayaa Dargeh Paaiai Thaon.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## pk70

carolineislands said:


> I am new to Sikhi and it seems from the largest percentage of posts on this topic that most of the people (at least on this board) believe that Guru IS God and that there is no difference. That says to me that Sikhs actually DO believe that Guru Nanak was God incarnate. Which logically would prove that Sikhs (at least some Sikhs) actually DO worship the Guru as God. In which case, new people coming in who ask this question should be told the truth about it. When I first came in I asked if Sikhs worship Guru and see Guru as God and was told no, they do not. Now I'm thinking, but they DO.
> 
> So my suggestion is that when new people come in asking if you worship Guru as God and believe there is no difference between Guru and God, you should tell them yes. You believe Guru IS God. In which case the general perception that Sikhi is the most pure monotheism might not actually be accurate.
> 
> I mean no disrespect, so I apologize if anyone is offended by this.


 
Caroline Islands Ji

With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God. Remember, Gurbani is written in poetic form, it should not be read just like prose in which we most of the time make statements. Gurbani is loaded with metaphors. All the quotes they give are compliments. Gurbani doesnt and cannot contradict its basic principle, that is "GOD IS BEYOND BIRTH AND DEATH", this strong statement was specially supported by Fifth Nanak in context of incarnation. What proof do you need more, I can give you. All the Gurbani  quotes these people have been giving are merely praise and strong emotional compliments for Guru as in India some Moms in emotional way calls their  sons   Kings. 
You can judge from this that when they are asked not to take literal meaning of Gurbani since its form is poetry, they have started saying that some people( Like many of us ) are calling Satguru Sahiban liars. How people can stoop so low. They have no rational proof to go against Sikh religion's basic principle. There are always some people  in every society who just worship every thing related to their Guru, prophet, messanger and forget The Creator. If you believe only these people, you also will realize that then there is no difference between Hinduism and Sikhism. That  conclusion totally destroys the Sikhism as it was advocated by its founder. The mool mantra clearly states that Sikhism doesnt believe that God does incarnate. I request you not to hear some people or a member on board to go to any conclusion. As a new member, my answer is very simple, SIKHISM REJECTS INCARNATION OF GOD. PROOF MOOL MANTRA WHICH IS SUPPORTED BY FIFTH GURU HIMSELF. PERIOD. Since its written in a hurry sorry for the mistakes if occured. GOD bless you!


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

Pyramid said:


> Ekmusafir_ajnabi Ji,
> 
> Good Explanation.
> 
> In the end it did sum up to- Let it be so- "God and Guru is ONE"
> 
> =, let it be so, accept it, assume it to be so, equal: ALL POINT TO "IS"
> 
> Thankyou very much.
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense.
> 
> Dont change the truth, let it be so, God and Guru is same, No Distinction.
> Antar Guru Aradhanaa, Jehba Jap Gur Naao, Netree Satguru Pekhna Swarnee Sunanaa Gur Nao Satguru Seitee Rataayaa Dargeh Paaiai Thaon.
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj



This is the same problem that even our beloved Gurus faced in their times. One message cannot be expected to be understood universally. Some understand it through metaphors others through examples and some have no problem in what is being said.

Although we all have the same goal but our progression is at a different rate. 
"Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now Yograj is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. 

The tuk "Gur Parmeshar eko Jaan". We all accept that Parmeshar is the truth. Guru also is telling about the same truth. So Guru is also the truth. It then becomes reasonable to say Guru is Parmeshar, If fact what the tuk is trying to tell us is that the Guru is telling us the truth. This does not equal the Guru as a being to Parmeshar. I am sure some will now split hairs here to get another meaning out of what is being said. 

So it is ones own problem in understanding that is the cause of the problem and not the message being delivered.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Randip Singh

Daanveer said:


> *Literal Meaning of Gurbani*​
> 
> 
> 
> *Gurbani is dear to many. Some read Gurbani every day, some as a rehat, some read it occassionaly. *​
> *I have noticed some people question the acceptance of the literal meaning of Gurbani. I am surprised to see that happening even under 'GURMAT VICHAAR' Section.*​
> *If we say that literal meaning is wrong: Isn't that imply that we are saying-GURU IS LYING.*​
> *CAN A TRUE GURU LIE TO HIS FOLLOWERS?*​
> *In my neechan neech budhi- GURU IS RIGHT IN LITERAL SENSE.*​
> *If anybody is telling me a meaning that does't go in line with the literal meaning of that Gurbani Line- CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS GURMAT.*​
> *For Example:*​
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so*ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_​
> *Any* *person who knows Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, khari boli will tell you that it tells us- Guru Nanak is God Himself*. *So Guru is telling us- GURU NANAK IS LORD HIMSELF.*
> 
> *If somebody comes to us and tells us, No it is the literal meaning, He cant be God.*
> 
> *Should I listen to him/her or My Guru?*
> 
> *Obviously my Guru: GURU KNOWS BETTER THAN US AND HIM/HER.*
> 
> *LITERAL MEANING IS ALWAYS RIGHT- INTERPRETATION HAS TO GO IN LINE WITH THE LITERAL MEANING.*


 
Do you understand what metaphors are? Do you agree the Guru's used metaphor's? If the the Guru's used metaphor's how then can things be taken literally?


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## Sikh80

*I*t is always good to take the literal meaning as the plain text means. However, if some anomaly and absurdity appears one should see the full text/shabad in which the meaning of the ‘tuk’ is to be assigned. Further if the contextual approach does not lead to any relevant or satisfactory meaning where it is to fit in, one should read the entire Granth sahib ‘as a whole’ to establish the intent of the Guru sahib i.e. the entire Sikh philosophy. If one cannot find the intent of the Gurus one should be guided by the prevailing meaning as already assigned by the expert commentators in their ‘Teekas’ as we are not experts in the syntax and the semantics/Grammar of Gurbani. 

*I*n such cases, it is the best course to not to speculate the meaning of the ‘tuk’ in isolation and one should always seek guidance from some other source. 

*K*indly be guided by your interpretations if you feel satisfied the way you are interpreting. *I*nterpreting Gurbani is always a complex subject as we do not know the Grammar of Language/Punjabi/Gurmukhi as employed in Granth sahib ji even though we know the language. We also do not have many external aids to interpret the ‘tuks’ in the context of which these have been authored. 

*Y*our question is primarily related to the adoption of Literal approach uniformly all over the text of Granth Sahib. It shall not be advisable to do so. 

*B*ut one may do if the conscience so permits. Mr. Randip has already stated the views indirectly and some other will also express theirs.

Bhul Chuk Mauf


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## dalsingh

*What about Guru Nanak referring to himself as a simple dhadhi in Gurbani. Should we ignore that? What would be the implications if we took this literally?*

Page 148, Line 4
ਖਾਲਕ ਕਉ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਢਾਢੀ ਗਾਵਣਾ ॥खालक कउ आदेसु ढाढी गावणा ॥Kẖālak ka*o āḏės dẖādẖī gāvṇā.I humbly bow to the Creator Lord; I am a *minstrel* singing His Praises.

Page 150, Line 16
ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਵੇਕਾਰੁ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥हउ ढाढी वेकारु कारै लाइआ ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī vėkār kārai lā*i*ā.I was a *minstrel*, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service.
*Again from Guru Ram Das:*

Page 91, Line 14
ਹਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸੁਣੀ ਪੂਕਾਰ ਢਾਢੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥हरि अंदरि सुणी पूकार ढाढी मुखि लाइआ ॥Har anḏar suṇī pūkār dẖādẖī mukẖ lā*i*ā.The Lord has heard my sad cries from within; He has called me, His *minstrel*, into His Presence.

*Also:*
Page 91, Line 13
ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਦਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥हउ ढाढी हरि प्रभ खसम का हरि कै दरि आइआ ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī har parabẖ kẖasam kā har kai ḏar ā*i*ā.I am a *minstrel* of the Lord God, my Lord and Master; I have come to the Lord's Door.
*Guru Arjan Dev ji also referred to himself in a similar fashion.*

ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਦਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਦਾ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ॥हउ ढाढी दरि गुण गावदा जे हरि प्रभ भावै ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī ḏar guṇ gāvḏā jė har parabẖ bẖāvai.I am a *minstrel* at His Door, singing His Glorious Praises, to please to my Lord God.*
Also Guru Gobind Singh explicitly saying those who consider him God will go to hell in Bachitar Natak. *

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥जो हम को परमेसर उचरि हैं ॥ ते सभ नरकि कुंड महि परिहैं ॥
Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

DG pg 137

*We should consider the context of the following too:*



ਕਹਾ ਲਗੈ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਟ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਤੋਰਿ ਤੁਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨੈ ॥कहा लगै इहु कीट बखानै ॥ महिमा तोरि तुही प्रभ जानै ॥
Upto what limit this insect can depict (Thy Praises)? Thou mayst Thyself improve Thy Greatness.

ਪਿਤਾ ਜਨਮ ਜਿਮ ਪੂਤ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਭੇਦ ਬਤਾਵੈ ॥੪॥पिता जनम जिम पूत न पावै ॥ कहा तवन का भेद बतावै ॥४॥
Just as the son cannot say anything about the birth of his father, then how can one unfold Thy mystery.4.

ਤੁਮਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਤੁਮੈ ਬਿਨ ਆਈ ॥ ਅਉਰਨ ਤੇ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤ ਬਤਾਈ ॥तुमरी प्रभा तुमै बिन आई ॥ अउरन ते नही जात बताई ॥
Thy Greatness is Only Thine, it cannot be described by others.

DG pg 133

*The above quote by Guru Gobind Singh relay a relationship between God and Guru. They are two different things. The quote below iillustrates Guru Gobind's belief that Gurus fully merged back into the lord after their earthly existence.. Again a difference between God and Guru is implied. *

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲ ਗਏ ॥ ਗੁਰਤਾ ਦੇਤ ਅਰਜਨਿਹ ਭਏ ॥रामदास हरि सो मिल गए ॥ गुरता देत अरजनिह भए ॥
When Ramdas merged in the Lord, the Guruship was bestowed upon Arjan.

DG pg 130

*
The quote beloiw related to Guru Tegh Bahadur's sacrifice. Note the use of the terms prabh logan (God folk). He never refers to the ninth Guru as God.*

ਨਾਟਕ ਚੇਟਕ ਕੀਏ ਕੁਕਾਜਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਲੋਗਨ ਕਹ ਆਵਤ ਲਾਜਾ ॥੧੪॥नाटक चेटक कीए कुकाजा ॥ प्रभ लोगन कह आवत लाजा ॥१४॥
The saints of the Lord abhor the performance of miracles and malpractices. 14.


*The above seems to fly in the face of arguments that the Gurus are to be considered God like is being suggested by some. 

Are difficulties people are having with finding deeper meaning in Gurbani making them* *take the easy route (i.**e. literal interpretations). What should we conclude from this?
*


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## spnadmin

dalsing ji

What a teacher you are! Your questions stop me dead. This is the best way for me to learn, speaking only personally. To have questions to ponder that address puzzles. Thank you for the mind and soul food.


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## pk70

dalsingh ji,

Your post proves that there are many Sikhs out there who read and understand Gurbani in its totality. Your way of expressing is Very simple  and extremely beautiful ! Randip Singh ji  and Ekmasifir_Ajnabi have also expressed their concerns about misunderstanding Gurbani. Facts remain cristal and clear When Gurbani is read in totality. There is no contradiction in GGS Ji at all. Our religion is  based on logic grounds; amazingly beautiful. It has no place for mist at all. So thanks to you, Randip Singh and Ekmasafir_ajnabi !
Waheguru bless you !


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## dalsingh

Thanks for the kind words but believe you me I am no authority on Gurbani.


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## spnadmin

dalsingh ji

You are opening up a new path of discussion that is worth having. You are offering perspectives that some of us would like to hear.

That promotes a healthy atsmosphere for discussion. That works for me.


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## BhagatSingh

dalsingh said:


> *What about Guru Nanak referring to himself as a simple dhadhi in Gurbani. Should we ignore that? What would be the implications if we took this literally?*
> 
> Page 148, Line 4
> ਖਾਲਕ ਕਉ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਢਾਢੀ ਗਾਵਣਾ ॥खालक कउ आदेसु ढाढी गावणा ॥Kẖālak ka*o āḏės dẖādẖī gāvṇā.I humbly bow to the Creator Lord; I am a *minstrel* singing His Praises.
> 
> Page 150, Line 16
> ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਵੇਕਾਰੁ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥हउ ढाढी वेकारु कारै लाइआ ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī vėkār kārai lā*i*ā.I was a *minstrel*, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service.
> *Again from Guru Ram Das:*
> 
> Page 91, Line 14
> ਹਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸੁਣੀ ਪੂਕਾਰ ਢਾਢੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥हरि अंदरि सुणी पूकार ढाढी मुखि लाइआ ॥Har anḏar suṇī pūkār dẖādẖī mukẖ lā*i*ā.The Lord has heard my sad cries from within; He has called me, His *minstrel*, into His Presence.
> 
> *Also:*
> Page 91, Line 13
> ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਦਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥हउ ढाढी हरि प्रभ खसम का हरि कै दरि आइआ ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī har parabẖ kẖasam kā har kai ḏar ā*i*ā.I am a *minstrel* of the Lord God, my Lord and Master; I have come to the Lord's Door.
> *Guru Arjan Dev ji also referred to himself in a similar fashion.*
> 
> ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਦਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਦਾ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ॥हउ ढाढी दरि गुण गावदा जे हरि प्रभ भावै ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī ḏar guṇ gāvḏā jė har parabẖ bẖāvai.I am a *minstrel* at His Door, singing His Glorious Praises, to please to my Lord God.*
> Also Guru Gobind Singh explicitly saying those who consider him God will go to hell in Bachitar Natak. *
> 
> ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥जो हम को परमेसर उचरि हैं ॥ ते सभ नरकि कुंड महि परिहैं ॥
> Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.
> 
> DG pg 137
> 
> *We should consider the context of the following too:*
> 
> 
> 
> ਕਹਾ ਲਗੈ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਟ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਤੋਰਿ ਤੁਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨੈ ॥कहा लगै इहु कीट बखानै ॥ महिमा तोरि तुही प्रभ जानै ॥
> Upto what limit this insect can depict (Thy Praises)? Thou mayst Thyself improve Thy Greatness.
> 
> ਪਿਤਾ ਜਨਮ ਜਿਮ ਪੂਤ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਭੇਦ ਬਤਾਵੈ ॥੪॥पिता जनम जिम पूत न पावै ॥ कहा तवन का भेद बतावै ॥४॥
> Just as the son cannot say anything about the birth of his father, then how can one unfold Thy mystery.4.
> 
> ਤੁਮਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਤੁਮੈ ਬਿਨ ਆਈ ॥ ਅਉਰਨ ਤੇ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤ ਬਤਾਈ ॥तुमरी प्रभा तुमै बिन आई ॥ अउरन ते नही जात बताई ॥
> Thy Greatness is Only Thine, it cannot be described by others.
> 
> DG pg 133
> 
> *The above quote by Guru Gobind Singh relay a relationship between God and Guru. They are two different things. The quote below iillustrates Guru Gobind's belief that Gurus fully merged back into the lord after their earthly existence.. Again a difference between God and Guru is implied. *
> 
> ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲ ਗਏ ॥ ਗੁਰਤਾ ਦੇਤ ਅਰਜਨਿਹ ਭਏ ॥रामदास हरि सो मिल गए ॥ गुरता देत अरजनिह भए ॥
> When Ramdas merged in the Lord, the Guruship was bestowed upon Arjan.
> 
> DG pg 130
> 
> *
> The quote beloiw related to Guru Tegh Bahadur's sacrifice. Note the use of the terms prabh logan (God folk). He never refers to the ninth Guru as God.*
> 
> ਨਾਟਕ ਚੇਟਕ ਕੀਏ ਕੁਕਾਜਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਲੋਗਨ ਕਹ ਆਵਤ ਲਾਜਾ ॥੧੪॥नाटक चेटक कीए कुकाजा ॥ प्रभ लोगन कह आवत लाजा ॥१४॥
> The saints of the Lord abhor the performance of miracles and malpractices. 14.
> 
> 
> *The above seems to fly in the face of arguments that the Gurus are to be considered God like is being suggested by some.
> 
> Are difficulties people are having with finding deeper meaning in Gurbani making them* *take the easy route (i.**e. literal interpretations). What should we conclude from this?
> *


Noone can beat that! Good job Singh.


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## Archived_Member1

randip singh said:


> Do you understand what metaphors are? Do you agree the Guru's used metaphor's? If the the Guru's used metaphor's how then can things be taken literally?




is ever word of gurbani metaphor?  is none to be taken literally?  how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion).  is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?

just curious.  i've never understood how people decide what they want to believe and what they want to throw out the window as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation".


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## Archived_Member1

carolineislands said:


> I am new to Sikhi and it seems from the largest percentage of posts on this topic that most of the people (at least on this board) believe that Guru IS God and that there is no difference.  That says to me that Sikhs actually DO believe that Guru Nanak was God incarnate.  Which logically would prove that Sikhs (at least some Sikhs) actually DO worship the Guru as God.  In which case, new people coming in who ask this question should be told the truth about it.  When I first came in I asked if Sikhs worship Guru and see Guru as God and was told no, they do not.  Now I'm thinking, but they DO.
> 
> So my suggestion is that when new people come in asking if you worship Guru as God and believe there is no difference between Guru and God, you should tell them yes.  You believe Guru IS God.  In which case the general perception that Sikhi is the most pure monotheism might not actually be accurate.
> 
> I mean no disrespect, so I apologize if anyone is offended by this.




people understand gurbani as per their own personal developmental level.  Sukhmani Sahib discusses the levels of understanding one can achieve...  plus it's a beautiful read.  i recommend it.

look at it this way...  if sikhi were an education (which it is, in a way), then you can imagine that those of us in elementary school understand things very differently than those in university.    think about it...  if you give a class full of young children a book to read and then ask them what they think it means...  how will they respond?  all in different ways, probably.  
so of course you will see a lot of variance in opinions, especially on issues people think are important or controversial.

as we grow as sikhs, we will understand the Guru's words more and more, we'll see the deeper levels, we'll get the subtle essence that we may miss as children.  

the trick is not to be led astray by people who claim to be post-graduates when in reality they're high school dropouts looking to pad their egos.  

so read it for yourself, think about it in your heart, and see what it feels like to you.
don't worry too much about what others say it means, or what the "majority" thinks.  worry about what YOU feel.


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## Sikh80

carolineislands said:


> I am new to Sikhi and it seems from the largest percentage of posts on this topic that most of the people (at least on this board) believe that Guru IS God and that there is no difference.  That says to me that Sikhs actually DO believe that Guru Nanak was God incarnate.  Which logically would prove that Sikhs (at least some Sikhs) actually DO worship the Guru as God.  In which case, new people coming in who ask this question should be told the truth about it.  When I first came in I asked if Sikhs worship Guru and see Guru as God and was told no, they do not.  Now I'm thinking, but they DO.
> 
> I mean no disrespect, so I apologize if anyone is offended by this.



Dear carol ji,

I shall answer few of your doubts:

1. Sikhs believe in single God.
2. Sikhism is against the very concept of Incarnation of GOD.
3. Sikhs always worship the One, Akaal Purukh.
4. Few may have strong love for Gurus for various reasons.
5. HE is the Guru Of All.

Kindly interpret the Mool Mantra your self and many things would be clear to you yourself. One of the important things that I have learnt here is to believe as to what you think is correct. Be guided by your interpretation of the things.

In case of doubt, please start a thread. Many would love to answer you. Pk70 ji has stated the things with clarity. You may try to have someone who can discuss things with you in more explicit manner as it is not possible to state on this forum all that one likes.

I really wish to help you out the way I was helped by many ever since I joined this forum.


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## Sikh80

jasleen_kaur said:


> is ever word of gurbani metaphor?  is none to be taken literally?  how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion).  is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?



I am also very new to sikhi.

I have very many reasons to believe that what Mr. Randip has stated/meant looks  to be correct.  It is true if one reads Gurmukhi script.  

One can ,with experience/practice, come  to know as to which line requires  to be  treated as  to mean  the things in literal form and which would require slight alignment  in the meaning.

There is nothing wrong in this and Mr. Randip has stated is based on this kind of justification.


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## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> is ever word of gurbani metaphor? is none to be taken literally? how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion). is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?
> 
> just curious. i've never understood how people decide what they want to believe and what they want to throw out the window as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation".


The key is to not take anything out of conext and to look at everything as a whole. That usually helps with the metaphor thing. 

What do you mean throw out the window as metaphor? Nonsense. 

Gurbani is poetry, if you throw out the metaphors, you have nothing left.


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## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> The key is to not take anything out of conext and to look at everything as a whole. That usually helps with the metaphor thing.
> 
> What do you mean throw out the window as metaphor? Nonsense.
> 
> Gurbani is poetry, if you throw out the metaphors, you have nothing left.



i agree that we must look at gurbani in context.  reading the full shabad is always key.  however, i believe that we are all at different spiritual levels, so what may make sense literally for one person may make more sense as metaphor for another.  and it may make sense as a totally different metaphor to yet another person.

as you said, gurbani is poetry.  and as with all poetry, i believe that there is no single "right" way to interpret it.


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## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> i agree that we must look at gurbani in context. reading the full shabad is always key. however, i believe that we are all at different spiritual levels, so what may make sense literally for one person may make more sense as metaphor for another. and it may make sense as a totally different metaphor to yet another person.
> 
> as you said, gurbani is poetry. and as with all poetry, i believe that there is no single "right" way to interpret it.


Yes I did.:}{}{}: Agreed.


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## carolineislands

So many wonderful replies and comments!  Thank you sp70, Dalsingh, Jasleen, et al -- Your posts and references confirm my thinking in many ways.  I can already see the SGGS is so full of wisdom and beauty that I could read it all day every day for the rest of my life and still not understand it all.  It reminds me of the part where Nanak is saying that even if he lived millions of years without sleeping or eating just trying to comprehend the value of God, he would never be able to describe the Greatness of God's Name!  Only by the Grace of the Guru, can we ever even begin to know God -- right?  

I don't think that we can know God unless God decides to gift us with that understanding.  I don't think that any amount of fancy thinking is going to allow us to even get close to knowing God.  I think that the only way any of us can ever know God, the wonderful, unfathomable Lord -- is if he decides to open our understanding.  And, personally, I don't think that is likely to happen without humility.

That's for me, anyhow... my understanding.

I do especially appreciate your comments, sp70.  This issue is very important to me because I honestly don't think I could ever fully embrace a belief system that espoused that human beings were on the same level with God.  And so this is a really important topic for me.  

Thanks all...  It's 1am here in Kansas so I'm signing off for the night !  

PS:  My harmonium arrived yesterday!!!  I love it!  (sorry that's off topic but I'm so excited I had to tell!).


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## carolineislands

> ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਗੁ ਧਾਰੇ ॥੫॥
> houmai maar milae pag dhhaarae ||5||
> Subduing ego, one meets the Lord, and places his feet on the Path. ||5||​



.


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## Randip Singh

jasleen_kaur said:


> is ever word of gurbani metaphor? is none to be taken literally? how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion). is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?
> just curious. i've never understood how people decide what they want to believe and what they want to throw out the window as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation".


What you have stated is the 64 million dollar question. What constitutes a metaphor and what is to be taken literally.

A way of training ones mind into what is a metaphor in Bani are Bhai Gurdas's Vars eg:​

_Just as one has to tie pail`s neck while taking out water​_,​_Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed​_
_Just as to get Kasturi from deer`s neck, deer is to be killed_ 
_Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed_ 
_To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken_ 
_Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up._​​*Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13​*​


Bhai Gurdas's Vars are called the key for a reason to Bani. They trains one's mind into the metaphor mindset.

Guru Nanak had many conversation's with Sufi's and Saints and their method of communication was metaphor too. Eg "Tie two Birds together even they have four wings they cannot fly" (Jalaludin Rumi) . PS I am not saying Guru Nanak met Rumi..

Lets analyse a Tukh from Bani:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji​
_mehlaa 1.​_​_vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.​_
_khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay._ 
_ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay._ 
_bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay._ 
_naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay._​_
_
_First Mehl:_ 
_Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,_ 
_and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed._ 
_What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out._ 
_And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below._ 
_Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!_​​*Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​*​


Now does cane have feet? Does it groan?

On one level this is an illustration and reminder that a plant like a cane is a breathing, living thing. On another level the cane is a metaphor. Read it and see what you think. Is it a metaphor for how good people are treated?

In my mind in order to understand Bani, one must understand 1) History (eg ivasion of Babur)of the times it was written. 2) The Sociological (eg Caste system) context in which it was written and 3) The Economic (eg Zamindari System) climate in which it was written.

The problem of literality lies not only in the fact that Bani is written in metaphor but also that many do not understand the context it was written. Although the message is Universal all of the above helps.

In essence what I am saying is being a Sikh means learning and understanding what is or not a metaphor is part of this process.​


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## Sardara123

Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:

*



( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):

Click to expand...

*


> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]*
> *lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]*
> *gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]*
> 
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.*
> *Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.*
> English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax


 
In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all, 'no second love'( no duality). 

We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God and Dear Guru as two seperate Entities- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.



WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.
SECOND LOVE - DUALITY- DUJA BHAO.


REASON OF THIS POST IS- THIS IS THE ISSUE -"'GURU IS GOD'-no difference" CAUSING ALL THESE QUESTIONS.

my two cents.

This Morning, I decided to visit SPN, one last time before leaving for my long trip. Found the same discussions on the topic of- 'God and Guru' are two seperate things- No they are not. There is ONE AND ONLY ONE. 

Me murakh understand: 

We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God and Dear Guru as seperate Entities- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.

WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.

'MORE THAN ONE LOVE' OR 'DUALITY' OR 'SECOND LOVE' OR 'LOVE OF MAYA' ie 
'*DOOJA BHAO'* IS NOT ALLOWED BY GURU JI. 

English Translation:

Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within.
You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. ||1||
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||
Everything under the influence of the three qualities shall perish; the love of duality is corrupting.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read the scriptures, but they are trapped in the bondage of emotional attachment. In love with evil, they do not understand.
Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and in the fourth state, the Door of Liberation is attained. ||2||
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.
If one dies through the Shabad, then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.
By Guru's Grace, one remains blended with the True Name of the Creator. ||3||
This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it just by trying.
In the love of duality, people suffer in pain, condemned to terrible punishment.
O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished. ||4||18||51||
English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax

Punjabi Translation: 
ArQ:- hy myry mn! (myrI g`l) sux, siqgurU dI srn pau [ (mwieAw dy pRBwv qoN) gurU dI ikrpw nwl hI bcIdw hY, ieh zhr-(BirAw) sMswr-smuMdr gurU dy Sbd dI rwhIN (hI) qr skIdw hY [1[rhwau[
mnu`K srIr nUµ (Bwv, igAwn-ieMidRAW nUµ) Awpxy v`s ivc r`Kx dy jqn krdw hY, pu`Tw ltk ky qp krdw hY, (pr ies qrHW) AMdroN haumY dUr nhIN huMdI [ jy mnu`K Awqmk au~nqI sMbMDI (Ajyhy im`Qy hoey Dwrimk) kMm krdw rhy, qW kdy BI auh prmwqmw dw nwm pRwpq nhIN kr skdw [ jyhVw mnu`K gurU dy Sbd dI shYqw nwl dunIAw dI ikrq-kwr krdw hoieAw hI ivkwrW vloN bcdw hY, aus dy mn ivc pRBU dw nwm Aw v`sdw hY [1[
iqMn guxW dy ADIn rih ky kMm krny—ieh swrw mwieAw dw hI pRBwv hY, qy mwieAw dw ipAwr (mn ivc) ivkwr (hI) pYdw krdw hY [ mwieAw dy bMDnW ivc mwieAw dy moh dw b`Jw hoieAw pMifq (Drm-pusqk) pVHdw hY, pr mwieAw dy ipAwr ivc (PisAw rihx krky auh jIvn dw shI rsqw) nhIN smJ skdw [ jy siqgurU iml pey qW (mwieAw-moh dy kwrn pYdw hoeI AMdrlI) iK`J dUr ho jWdI hY, mwieAw dy iqMn guxW qoN auqly Awqmk drjy ivc (phuMicAW) (mwieAw dy moh qoN) ^lwsI dw drvwzw l`B pYNdw hY [2[
gurU pwsoN jIvn dw shI rsqw l`B pYNdw hY (mn ivcoN) moh (dw) hnyrw dUr ho jWdw hY [ jy mnu`K gurU dy Sbd ivc juV ky mwieAw dy moh vloN mr jwey qW (sMswr-smuMdr ivc fu`bxoN) bc jWdw hY, qy ivkwrW qoN ^lwsI dw drvwzw l`B lYNdw hY [ gurU dI ikrpw nwl hI mnu`K (pRBU-crnW ivc) juiVAw rih skdw hY, qy pRBU dw sdw-iQr nwm pRwpq kr skdw hY [3[
(nhIN qW) ieh mn (qW) bVw blvwn hY (gurU dI srn qoN ibnw hor) iksy BI hIly nwl ieh (kurwhy pwxoN) C`fdw nhIN [ mwieAw dy ipAwr ivc Psw ky (mnu`K nUµ) du`K cMboV dyNdw hY, qy bVI szw dyNdw hY [
hy nwnk! jyhVy mnu`K gurU dy Sbd dI rwhIN haumY dUr kr ky prmwqmw dy nwm ivc juVdy hn auh (ies dy pMjy qoN) bcdy hn [4[18[51[
source: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0033.html

Guru Shabad:
isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ]
kWieAw swDY aurD qpu krY ivchu haumY n jwie ]
AiDAwqm krm jy kry nwmu n kb hI pwie ]
gur kY sbid jIvqu mrY hir nwmu vsY min Awie ]1]
suix mn myry Bju sqgur srxw ]
gur prswdI CutIAY ibKu Bvjlu sbid gur qrxw ]1] rhwau ]
qRY gux sBw Dwqu hY dUjw Bwau ivkwru ]
pMifqu pVY bMDn moh bwDw nh bUJY ibiKAw ipAwir ]
sqguir imilAY iqRkutI CUtY cauQY pid mukiq duAwru ]2]
gur qy mwrgu pweIAY cUkY mohu gubwru ]
sbid mrY qw auDrY pwey moK duAwru ]
gur prswdI imil rhY scu nwmu krqwru ]3]
iehu mnUAw Aiq sbl hY Cfy n ikqY aupwie ]
dUjY Bwie duKu lwiedw bhuqI dyie sjwie ]
nwnk nwim lgy sy aubry haumY sbid gvwie ]4]18]51]


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## Pyramid

Sardara,

Believe me now get ready for the lesson on -

Duja bhao is a metaphor- Sardara dont know anything. Just joking . My daughter-in-law is telling me- 'Bapu Ji, stop posting on SPN, People are going to start telling you- Burra bahattar Gaya(Old man gone crazy, he is over 72). He doesn't know anything'.

Anyways back to topic:

Bhai Gurdas Ji's composition is excellent. Somethings are hard to digest for some, due to a big cultural difference. Time changes fast. I have always experienced that one need to have a very healthy digestive track to swallow down his compositions. If one pass that test, it is very easy to understand Gurbani. That's why it is called- Key to Gurbani :}{}{}:. (please dont take it that I am saying- One need to learn his composition first>>>> That was my mataphor only.)

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Randip Singh

Sardara123 said:


> Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:
> 
> 
> 
> In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
> In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all, 'no second love'( no duality).
> 
> We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
> We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
> If we are loving Lord God and Dear Guru as two seperate Entities- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.
> SECOND LOVE - DUALITY- DUJA BHAO.
> 
> 
> REASON OF THIS POST IS- THIS IS THE ISSUE -"'GURU IS GOD'-no difference" CAUSING ALL THESE QUESTIONS.
> 
> my two cents.


 
Point 1

You must show the English translations are accurate.

Point 2 

You must show that the word Guru is being used to describe God in this context and not a physical Guru. There are many instance in Bani where God is refered to as Guru. Therefore God can be a Teacher (i.e. Guru), but a Teacher is not necessarily God.


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## Sardara123

randip singh said:


> Point 1
> 
> You must show the English translations are accurate.
> 
> Point 2
> 
> You must show that the word Guru is being used to describe God in this context and not a physical Guru. There are many instance in Bani where God is refered to as Guru. Therefore God can be a Teacher (i.e. Guru), but a Teacher is not necessarily God.


 
Point 1-

Those are provided for non punjabi readers. To me as much justice one can do while doing a translation- Translator has done it. 

I have provided the Punjabi exact version. So you can get it translated from others as well. I am not concerned, I am talking after understanding it in from my MENTAL LANGUAGE. 

Point 2- IN SIKHI THERE IS NO PHYSICAL GURU- PHYSICAL IS TRIGUN- MAYA. MAYA DA PYAAR- DUJA BHAO. 

Thankyou for making it clear that Guru is some Physical entity for you.  Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou

Thanks.


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## Sardara123

Pyramid said:


> Sardara,
> 
> Believe me now get ready for the lesson on -
> 
> Duja bhao is a metaphor- Sardara dont know anything. Just joking . My daughter-in-law is telling me- 'Bapu Ji, stop posting on SPN, People are going to start telling you- Burra bahattar Gaya(Old man gone crazy, he is over 72). He doesn't know anything'.
> 
> Anyways back to topic:
> 
> Bhai Gurdas Ji's composition is excellent. Somethings are hard to digest for some, due to a big cultural difference. Time changes fast. I have always experienced that one need to have a very healthy digestive track to swallow down his compositions. If one pass that test, it is very easy to understand Gurbani. That's why it is called- Key to Gurbani :}{}{}:. (please dont take it that I am saying- One need to learn his composition first>>>> That was my mataphor only.)
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


 
You are making me laugh. 

Any lesson is Good for me. Guru is teaching in HIS WAY. I know my post will be a piece of joke for many. Everytime it happens, it brings out many good points. I have learned so much reading all that. I want it, that's why I Share. All these points make me ask questions to Guru Ji and He answers. There is nothing that Guru doesn't answer. Infact, being laughed at or being abused always make it easy to get my doubts clear:}{}{}:.

Thanks


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## Randip Singh

Sardara123 said:


> Point 1-
> 
> Those are provided for non punjabi readers. To me as much justice one can do while doing a translation- Translator has done it.
> 
> I have provided the Punjabi exact version. So you can get it translated from others as well. I am not concerned, I am talking after understanding it in from my MENTAL LANGUAGE.
> 
> Point 2- IN SIKHI THERE IS NO PHYSICAL GURU- PHYSICAL IS TRIGUN- MAYA. MAYA DA PYAAR- DUJA BHAO.
> 
> Thankyou for making it clear that Guru is some Physical entity for you. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou
> 
> Thanks.


 
I think we are talking at cross puposes.

On Point 1

I cannot see or view your Punjabi translation and there is no link. Infact the translation is from Sikh to the Max from contributors. Before posting here I suggest you verifiy your sorces.

Pont 2

Do not try to insinuate what I have said or not said without reading the entire debate.

Guru is not a physical entity for me . Guru can mean God. Guru can mean physical person. In Bani Guru is described as aboat, a shrine etc etc.

Example page 17 SGGSji

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Siree Raag, First Mehl: 

. 
The virtuous wife exudes virtue; the unvirtuous suffer in misery. 

If you long for your Husband Lord, O soul-bride, you must know that He is not met by falsehood. 

No boat or raft can take you to Him. Your Husband Lord is far away. ||1|| 

My Lord and Master is Perfect; His Throne is Eternal and Immovable. 

One who attains perfection as Gurmukh, obtains the Immeasurable True Lord. ||1||Pause|| 

The Palace of the Lord God is beautiful. Within it are flawless diamonds, 

gems, rubies and pearls. A fortress of gold surrounds this Source of Nectar. 

How can I climb up to the Fortress without a ladder? By meditating on the Lord, through the Guru, I am blessed and exalted. ||2|| 

*The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name.* 

*The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River.* 

If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure. ||3|| 

He looks so Beautiful in His Perfect Place. He fulfills the hopes of the hopeless. 

O Nanak, if one obtains the Perfect Lord, how can his virtues decrease? ||4||9||

As I have stated time and time again, a point that seems to have eluded you, the word Guru must be read in context.


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## Sardara123

Guru is All - for this moorakh, Randip Ji.
All is God. 

Guru has told me that and I believe it.
I am sorry that I said any thing to you. You can disscuss it with yourself and others about it as long as you want. 

No body can match GURU WORD. Bhai Gurdas is just an interpretation of Guru Word, same as SikhiToTheMax is. 

GURU WORD IS WRITTEN IN HEART, LOVE IS THE LANGUAGE- ONE LOVE.

*GOOD LUCK.*


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## Randip Singh

Sardara123 said:


> Guru is All - for this moorakh, Randip Ji.
> All is God.
> 
> Guru has told me that and I believe it.
> I am sorry that I said any thing to you. You can disscuss it with yourself and others about it as long as you want.
> 
> No body can match GURU WORD. Bhai Gurdas is just an interpretation of Guru Word, same as SikhiToTheMax is.
> 
> GURU WORD IS WRITTEN IN HEART, LOVE IS THE LANGUAGE- ONE LOVE.
> 
> *GOOD LUCK.*


 
So somebody like Guru Nanak is God for you? Is that what you are saying?

PS some pointers for you in order to avoid a confused debate:

1) Stick to posting on one thread.

2) Get verifiable translations.

3) Post linkts to the translations so we can verify.

4) Don't make perosonal remarks on insinuations.

5) Try and write precisely and concisely in English your points.

Thanks


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## Sardara123

randip singh said:


> So somebody like Guru Nanak is God for you? Is that what you are saying?
> 
> PS some pointers for you in order to avoid a confused debate:
> 
> 1) Stick to posting on one thread.
> 
> 2) Get verifiable translations.
> 
> 3) Post linkts to the translations so we can verify.
> 
> 4) Don't make perosonal remarks on insinuations.
> 
> 5) Try and write precisely and concisely in English your points.
> 
> Thanks


 
Guru Nanak is NOT SOMEBODY.

HE IS JOT.

Thanks for clarifying that Guru Nanak is- somebody for you.

I am not debating on translations, I am sharing. And I have mentioned the source as well, please check. 



SIKHS dont debate GURU SHABAD. THEY SHARE.

thanks  and

GOOD LUCK FOR DEBATES


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## Randip Singh

Sardara123 said:


> Guru Nanak is NOT SOMEBODY.
> 
> HE IS JOT.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that Guru Nanak is- somebody for you.
> 
> I am not debating on translations, I am sharing. And I have mentioned the source as well, please check.
> 
> 
> 
> SIKHS dont debate GURU SHABAD. THEY SHARE.
> 
> thanks


 

Guru Nanak was an actual physical person. He may have carried a Jyot, but he was a physical person, and yes he was somebody. Not some God, not somedemi-god, not someflame(Jyot), but a physical breathing, eating, reproducing , human body.

Actually one of the side issues of this thread is whether the English *translation* is accurate. If you do not wish to debate the translation I suggest you do not participate.

PS This is the final time I will say this. *Keep personal remarks out of this. Debate the issue and not the person.*


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## Sardara123

Daanveer said:


> *Literal Meaning of Gurbani*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gurbani is dear to many. Some read Gurbani every day, some as a rehat, some read it occassionaly. *​
> *I have noticed some people question the acceptance of the literal meaning of Gurbani. I am surprised to see that happening even under 'GURMAT VICHAAR' Section.*​
> *If we say that literal meaning is wrong: Isn't that imply that we are saying-GURU IS LYING.*​
> *CAN A TRUE GURU LIE TO HIS FOLLOWERS?*​
> *In my neechan neech budhi- GURU IS RIGHT IN LITERAL SENSE.*​
> *If anybody is telling me a meaning that does't go in line with the literal meaning of that Gurbani Line- CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS GURMAT.*​
> *For Example:*​
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_​
> *Any* *person who knows Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, khari boli will tell you that it tells us- Guru Nanak is God Himself*. *So Guru is telling us- GURU NANAK IS LORD HIMSELF.*
> 
> *If somebody comes to us and tells us, No it is the literal meaning, He cant be God.*
> 
> *Should I listen to him/her or My Guru?*
> 
> *Obviously my Guru: GURU KNOWS BETTER THAN US AND HIM/HER.*
> 
> *LITERAL MEANING IS ALWAYS RIGHT- INTERPRETATION HAS TO GO IN LINE WITH THE LITERAL MEANING.*


 
Daanveer Ji,

I listen to Guru, and it is PEACE in listening to Him. He tears away all the falsehood one after another. As we disscussed before, all these questions raised by different members, help learn everyday. 

Guru answers


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## pk70

Randip Singh ji

sardara 123 ji took one line out of the stanza ( in translation)he quoted which is very important. it says:
"lobali(WaHAGURU) dargeh vich maan nimana maan nimanai 11 There is no translation is given of that line.
In this war as per Guru Nanak panth, Gur parmeshar stands for The Almighty. Why because hint is towards duality,:dooja bhao". Guru ji always warns us not to have love for any one but Waheguru
 Third line about tolerrance if some one does bad and the Sikh avoids revenge( in Gurbani its also known as ajarr jarna). The next line is about not to speak harshly or do slandering. then next one is about take a loss if it is good for humanity( aap gavai). Then it is about doing good for the humanity and enjoy it not try to boast about it.. Then comes line which is omitted in English translation, it says in God's court being humble getting honour by God because of good deeds done as stated above. The last. This is the right way to understand Guru teachings. 
All above listed good deeds are praised because these are honoured by Waheguru and taught by Guru Ji. 
I think, the transltor sardara 123 ji quoted just translated without giving a thought in what context  Bhai Gurdaas ji is praising people.


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