# The Five K's, Why



## tony (Apr 8, 2009)

Dear all 
I have been on the forum for several years now and joined to find answers, Alot have been aswered but the one that still remains unanswered is the five K's. When I've seen threads on this topic Ive read them with interest but still no one has ever answered it, Many have tried but still no real answer. the hair one seems to always be that its a Hukam but no one says why Guru Gobing Singh ji gave it and the same with the rest of them. Nine Guru ji's didnt say we needed them, one did, Its not in the SGGS ji, Ive been told that untill I accept them it will be a stumbling block to my spirituality, But why. I'm told that I cant be a full Sikh till I have them, Why. Could some one please tell me what each one is for and why Guru Gobing Singh ji thought that we needed them and to what purpose they serve to day please.
Tony


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## bawaj (Apr 8, 2009)

There is no place where Guru Gobind Singh ji has explained comprehensively why the 5ks. It's something I have contemplated as well. There is a very good explanation in Kushwant Singh's book History of Sikhs Vol.1. Here is the jist:

Kesh: leave your body untouched as it was created; holy people would keep long hair during those times and the Guru's idea was to have saintly soldiers (Pius, just...etc). 
Kanga: to keep yourself neat and clean. Living in the jungle you cant carry a cosmetic set with you so the best solution is the have a comb in you turban. 
Kada: the kada in Guru's time were much larger and they serve two purposes: as a protecive armour for you right (i.e) your sword wielding hand; And when you do take out the kirpan the kada acts as a reminder to always be just in your action. 
Kachera: Shorts... makes it easy during war... i.e you can quiclkly get on the horse. 
Kirpan: a sikh should protect against injustice. 

These are convential definitions that have been explained by sikh scholars but you are right to point out its absense in the guru granth sahib. But then again there is very little written by guru gobind singh in the adi granth. His contributions lie in the zafarnamas and the dasam granth.


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## Sat Nam (Apr 9, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear all
> I have been on the forum for several years now and joined to find answers, Alot have been aswered but the one that still remains unanswered is the five K's. When I've seen threads on this topic Ive read them with interest but still no one has ever answered it, Many have tried but still no real answer. the hair one seems to always be that its a Hukam but no one says why Guru Gobing Singh ji gave it and the same with the rest of them. Nine Guru ji's didnt say we needed them, one did, Its not in the SGGS ji, Ive been told that untill I accept them it will be a stumbling block to my spirituality, But why. I'm told that I cant be a full Sikh till I have them, Why. Could some one please tell me what each one is for and why Guru Gobing Singh ji thought that we needed them and to what purpose they serve to day please.
> Tony


 
The reason for the 5 K's is as follows: 
we keep our hair because it gives us energy & strength. Hair will only grow so far and then stop - your body requires nutrients to regrow hair should you cut it. 
It's hard to understand the 5 K's without an element of humility and desire to surrender- and how to  get that is a whole other matter. 
I hope this helps. Sat Nam


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

I have discussed this sensitive subject in my post of Sikh Symbols but the minority has no bibliographic evidence and the silent majority is just the observer as in any political or religious situation. I will be posting a article on this silent majority. There are 8115 members of this forum. On the discussion side there are only 15 or so members who discuss and debate and spinning the thread taking it from discussion of meat to clean shavers etc. Now you can calculate the silent majority. They think that 5 K's is the end of the means as far as spirituality is concerned. You talk of internal filth or virtues they go on to hairs. You talk of hairs they go on to Amrit. You talk of Amrit they go on to turban. You talk of turban they go on to sword. I have posted all these one by one and each thread as per AGGS is nothing but virtue. Most of the debaters have 5 K's and two of us are with out Bana.
It is true that those who make a living by reading AGGS have more knowledge of it. I have read AGGS from all 1430 pages 60 + times over a period of 62 years. How many debaters have read AGGS and how many times?
Spirituality has nothing to do with any religion. It is to find Akal Purkh and mental poise in Higher Self by lifting the veil of Lower instincts-one of these is ego/Houmai. The later does not let the discussion any where;

First Swaeeya, DG, Page, 712

ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ *ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ **ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ **॥* 
_Jaagat Joat Japai Nis Basar Ayk Bina Man Naik Na Aanai.Pooran Prem Partit Sajai Barat Gor Marhi Matt Bhool Na Manai.Ttheerathh Daan Dayaa Tap Sanjam Ayk Binaa Neh Ayk Pashhaanai.Pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khaalas thaahi nakhaalas jaanai._

He, who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind, and practices his vow with whole hearted affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, Hindu monuments and monasteries; and does not recognize anyone else except One God, not even the bestowal of charities, performance of merciful acts, austerities and restraint on pilgrim-stations; the perfect light of the God illuminates his heart, then one comes to know immaculate*Pure from impure.* 

Cordially,

Virinder


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## pk70 (Apr 9, 2009)

*Respected VSGREWAL Ji*
*With all due respect, I have to disagree with you due to wrong assumptions you are making about others. You have read SGGS even hundred times; it will not change your mind-set. In my post I asked you very simple question if Guru asked his followers “ First clean your mind and then join then Amrit ceremony ?” or he let all to have it who were willing to?’ Your over 60 times reading of SGGS ji couldn’t make you enough honest to answer the question. What kind of boasting is this?  You are unnecessarily attaching “Turban, Sword etc “with spirituality” and trying to define them through SGGS. All those who contributed in to SGGS didn’t establish “Khalsa” it was tenth Master who did, how come you are defining these fives  out of SGGS where in fact they are used in a metaphoric expression. Reading or reciting Gurbani with own mind-set, and not listening actually what the real Message is conveyed through Gurbani, is nothing but a academic muscles or mind pleasing. There are people out there for whom 5 Kakars are very dear and after having it they are struggling with five primal forces as you  and many  others are doing; let them do it, don’t try to tell them that this will insult amrit because Tenth Nanak when gave Amrit he didn’t put any condition, on what ground you are saying so. Surprisingly none of the debaters ever said that only through 5 kakars, spiritually comes. Sikhism is all about battling within to keep love for our beloved Master-the Creator. All are struggling at their own levels and capacities as per His ordinance. Don’t be judge of others in this regard. No Sikh wearing 5 kakars should disrespect those who are not wearing 5 kakars because Guru didn’t do that, it is that simple, same way, who love 5 Kakars, don’t lecture them with your own mind-set about 5 kakars either.*
*Forgive me if I said any thing that really affects your spiritual progression, I didn’t have any intention to do so save for your boasting of reading SGGS many times in comparison to others who question your distortion. All I am saying is that as you are right to clean within is important, they are also right to have 5 Kakars to walk on the same Guru path you are claiming to tread on. Only truly achieving those virtues will decide who in real sense have followed Guru not these lame lectures or my commentries. Thanks*
*Regards*
*G Singh*


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## tony (Apr 9, 2009)

If anyone has personal issue with a posting please can they do it via a personal message to the person concerned, My intention with this subject is to find out the reasons for the need to carry the five K's and to see how they can help me and others to become better people (Sikhs). It is not my intention to start an argument as this helps nobody.
Now I would like to address the answers so far 
Bawaj ji
your reasons for kesh is to keep as God intented/ made us. this falls short when one cuts nails /removes appendix and so on, All including kesh are remnents of our past, all became obsolete when man started walking upright, I have heard hair is used for the making of vitamin D2 which is correct but only when the skin is completly covered and sunlight can not touch the skin i.e. animals with fur. So if we are to stay as God made us then we must keep our nails, To look saintly I suppose is a reasonable reason, but looking isnt always enough. I understand the need for the Kanga if one has hair no need to go on with this one. I always wonder about the kara and this is the nicest explanation I heard would love to know if this is right and if it is why has it been reduced in size. the kachera seems pretty logical but are they neccassery now days, how many Sikhs ride horses. The kirpan a means to protect is very out dated. one if you used it in self defence in England and the other person wasnt armed you would have a job proving that it wasnt excessive force, Most people who have claimed it was in selfdefence have failed and are doing time, also if you pull a knife out your quite likely to get shot these days and these also the fact that if one carries a weapon the other will get a bigger/ better weapon hence the nuclear arms race. thank you for your posting but still it hasnt shed any light on the need for them,
Satnam ji 
Hair cannot give you strength or energy, it is dead from the moment it leaves the folical it cannot repair its self nor does it require any more nutrients after being cut than if it is left uncut. It grows at the same rate reguardless, I have a great degree of humility and am willing to surrender myself to God. I do my best each day to follow the teaching of the Guru jis as per SGGS ji, Looking at my actions each night and promising to do better the next day (not always achieving it but trying anyway) Still I cannot see the need of the five K's or how they can help any one to be a better person (Sikh). Thank you for trying any way the reminder of being humble and the need to surrender are always of help.
Virinder ji
thank you for taking the time to reply to my question your opion always means alot. I have followed your threads with great interest and must agree that many change the subject quite quickly. Superstition being the lastest one I've read and that changed direction within the first page. When i first read the SGGS ji it seemed so simple say your prayers, think of God at all times, treat all as equals and help others selflessly. The finding of the inner self being the hardest part, i.e. the losing of the ego, believing all are better, but even thats getting easier, Its the need to carry items which I can only see as a means of obtaining an identity, the need to have hair, carrying a kirpan and the wearing of a Turban just so that others know that I'm a Sikh, It actually seems to be an Ego thing as opposed to an aid to losing ones ego. My days of trying to stand out in the crowd for the way I look are well and truly over. So as yet I see no real reason why I need any of the five K's to say that I'm Sikh. Thank you for your comments and I look forward to your next thread
Tony


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear G Singh Ji,

In short I will take Amrit when I have cleaned my inside. In my own judgement of my self, so for I have not made my self fit to take, Amrit. I do not think it is just a ritual/joke and a means to an end. My mind roaming around in 10 directions. I am making an honest effort to subjugate my lower instincts and to develop virtues. When I become fit I may be blessed by Akal Purkh's Grace and Amrit will automatically be showered.

Respectfully submitted with regards..

Virinder


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## tony (Apr 9, 2009)

Cant agree more Virinder ji, It is better to make the effort first then receive the honour than to receive the honour and forget to make the effort 
Tony


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

I have been trying to say this since long but it is twisted, spinned etc. I have written my personal experience in one of my posts that Manjit (My wife) reminded me that I could not live the Truth for 15 minutes. To me it is better not to have, rather than insulting the 5 K's later on as we read it every day in the media. Thanks for your thoughts.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 9, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear all
> 
> Alot have been aswered but the one that still remains unanswered is the five K's.


 
It has been answered, just got to look for it more carefully.



> When I've seen threads on this topic Ive read them with interest but still no one has ever answered it,


 
Same here read with interest, but it has been answered.



> Many have tried but still no real answer.


 
tony ji which site you on



> the hair one seems to always be that its a Hukam but no one says why Guru Gobing Singh ji gave it and the same with the rest of them


 

There are many reasons why the Tenth Nanak made it a Hukam. Go through other threads. 



> Nine Guru ji's didnt say we needed them,


 
Are you 100% certain on this? 



> Its not in the SGGS ji,


 
Read more carefully God is described with long flowing beautful hair. It also says to do as the Guru says 





> Ive been told that untill I accept them it will be a stumbling block to my spirituality, But why.


 
How can one say I am the Guru's Sikh without accepting his teachings. The only way one is to be a Sikh is if mind is elimanted and you are the Guru's slave.



> I'm told that I cant be a full Sikh till I have them, Why


.

Define full Sikh and you'll have your answer.



> Could some one please tell me what each one is for and why Guru Gobing Singh ji thought that we needed them and to what purpose they serve to day please.
> Tony


 
Why did the tenth Nanak say we needed them, because it creates an identity and they help on this spiritual journey. Each one promotes spiritualality and is a quick reminder to who you are and what is the mission in life. The more Gurbani you read with attentive hears the reason for each kakkar is given. The Shabad Guru speaks to us, we just have to decide if we want to listen or not. The choice is of the reader. Go in with saying 'I know nothing' and the learning begins. Go in with 'I know' and the learning has stopped.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear Sadh Sangat,

I need your help in finding the answers to the following:

1.Are all 25 millions Sikhs Keshsdhari or does this number also include Sehajdharis, meaning  people who do not keep unshorn hair?

2.If all 25 millions are Keshadhari Sikhs, then how many have taken Kandei De pahul?

3.How many Sehajdhari Sikhs are there?

4. Does SGPC keep any stats to find out the above?

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 9, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Tony Ji,
> 
> I have discussed this sensitive subject in my post of Sikh Symbols but the minority has no bibliographic evidence and the silent majority is just the observer as in any political or religious situation.


 
Virinder ji,

The biblographic evidence is the living Khalsa of todays time that serve the Lord in full devotion. These same Khalsas were named Baba Deep Singh ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji. These Khalsas carry the evidence you need.







> I will be posting a article on this silent majority. There are 8115 members of this forum. On the discussion side there are only 15 or so members who discuss and debate and spinning the thread taking it from discussion of meat to clean shavers etc.


 

If some don't feel to discuss then thats fine, A person learns from doing both. And some probably feel that there views are being expressed, but just another person is doing it. 





> Now you can calculate the silent majority.


 
Some people here have an account, but rarely or never come back. Sometimes they only needed one question answered and once they get their answer, off they go never to return.




> They think that 5 K's is the end of the means as far as spirituality is concerned.


 
Sorry to say but this is your judging.




> You talk of internal filth or virtues they go on to hairs. You talk of hairs they go on to Amrit. You talk of Amrit they go on to turban. You talk of turban they go on to sword. I have posted all these one by one and each thread as per AGGS is nothing but virtue.


 
Are you speaking about someone specific here. It would be nice to know who, so this can be cleared up. I am pretty sure the person will have an answer for you if he/she is on this site




> Most of the debaters have 5 K's and two of us are with out Bana.


 
Seriously, never knew this




> It is true that those who make a living by reading AGGS have more knowledge of it.


 
Judgemental



> I have read AGGS from all 1430 pages 60 + times over a period of 62 years. How many debaters have read AGGS and how many times?


 
Reading is not the key, listening is. Waheguru Simran is so wonderful. Love it





> First Swaeeya, DG, Page, 712
> 
> ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ *ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ **ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ **॥*
> _Jaagat Joat Japai Nis Basar Ayk Bina Man Naik Na Aanai.Pooran Prem Partit Sajai Barat Gor Marhi Matt Bhool Na Manai.Ttheerathh Daan Dayaa Tap Sanjam Ayk Binaa Neh Ayk Pashhaanai.Pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khaalas thaahi nakhaalas jaanai._
> ...


 
Which Ang Sung is this shabad on? Nevermind I found my answer.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 9, 2009)

Tony Ji,
Bhagat Kabir Ji says..
Keso Keso KOOKEAYEAH...na soeayeh asaar
Keso is the "Lord with Beautiful FLOWING hair...
and Kookeayeah means SHOUT at the top of ones voice...( SIMRAN)
why the need to describe his LORD as the one with long flowing beautiful hair..and why the need to use the word KOOK (Shout) about it...
SGGS has thousands of references to ALL the Five Ks..but in symbolic ways because the TEN GURUS are ONE JYOT and not one will BREAK OFF and do something that the other NINE rejected/disagreed with/didnt want/discouraged it/thought it irrelevant. NO WAY..or we are injecting our own MANMATT into it and trying to find excuses and divide the TEN GURUS. I dotn mean any offense but this is my opinion of those who reject the TENTH NANAK as someone who did things not "sanctioned" by the NINE NANAKS as per THEIR MISREADING/MISUNDERSTANDING of the SGGS. Once we have made up our mind.its difficult to drop it...thats why "HAIR" is the Main stumbling BLOCK...to many clean shaven sikhs. The other Five Ks are inconsequential....KESHGARH is the name of the Takhat that saw the First Panj Pyara Ceremony in 1699 and the very name is solid enough proof that its HAIR that is the Central Base of the Khalsa Banna.

2. The point about the "SILENT MAJORITY" is applicable to ALL - whether Nations, families or whatever.
Another Large Forum has nearly 10,000 members but whenever a Online POLL takes place..the people taking part are NEVER MORE THAN FIVE..... =.0000how many zeros ?? And we are talking about NOT about WRITING an essay/para/one liner reply..BUT JUST CLICKING the OPTIONS and SUBMIT. That also more than FIVE persons DONT want to DO. WHY ??  a silent majority ?? Lazy Majority ?? Couldnt care less majority ?? no idea....just thats the way it is..we all live with it...

IMHO SPN has MORE posters writing large articles than any other Sikh forum. In my Gurbani class of over 34/38.... I am the One and Only Member on SPN.....but the 34 READ daily the SPN and give me comments...and I write for them...that may very well be the case with many more..IF a question has been answered already..no point in makhee te makhee marnee..swat the same fly repeatedly just to send your reply. I can Register the 34 members but since they ALL use my one Internet Network Wireless Connection..it will produce multiple ID problems...so we all read separately but since its my account..only i answer...thats how sometimes my name appears on 15 different threads within seconds- but of course I am responsible and "pass"/screen.. all the writings.

3. I have read the SGGS since I was about 5 years old..and I have taught Gurbani to hundreds...did many hundreds of Paaths/sehaj paaths/Akhand paaths...and DONT DO THIS AS A LIVING or make money out of it. I dotn know who else makes money out of reading the SGGS..but imho....those who read to make money..ususally DONT have much understanding - because the two are mutually exclusive IF one READS for MONEY..then its got to be FAST...Finish as fast as possible and collect the payment and proceed to the next paath. On the other hand i am aware that there are many who READ the SGGS to look for "loopholes"/arguments to back up their viewpoints etc. I meet such every few weeks when they meet me excitedly at having found the "perfect Tuk.......and  I demolish their arguments..and they then return to their copy of SGGs to "read" once again..This is also good as we BOTH LEARN. These "readers" have other Occupations..and earn their living not from SGGS...but read sggs for their own reasons...i am in no position to judge anyone...and never will. But this much i know..Gurbani read with UNDERSTANDING/VICHAAR demolishes our Manmatt very effectivley - IF we do it sincerely. Swaal Jwaab Dovehn Kareh Moolun khuthah jaiyeh...IF we try to be smart and Double Guess the GURU..we expose our own weaknesses.

4. The "jumping" about from Hair..to Amrit..to Kirpan..to Superstition..to Meat..to Devil worship ??
 I can answer ONLY for myself. My way of teaching..and illustration of Gurbani is MULTI FACETED.
NO one subject is in ISOLATION as far as i am concerned. IF someone asks me about Managing Finances..I will jump from banking to Stocks to Insurance reinsurrance assurance to Dividends cash deposits..cash inflows..etc etc. HOw does INSURANCE WORK ?..the answer will have to touch on DEPOSITS in the Current account..Savings Account..!!! and  WHY money under the Mattress is NOT "insurance"...savings for a rainy Day ???..rainly day..will talk about UMBRELLAS..financial umbrellas..and ordinary ones.... snow storms..hailstones....my brain just works this way..I am not an isolationist !! Same way about SIKHI/Gurmatt/Gurbani....they are all INTER-RELATED..and Multi Faceted..I admit i do get carried away sometimes...so much DEEPER than the original poster never thought to go..but its still OK..because this spins off more questions..and then answers...after all thats what SPN is all about..as many questions answered as much by all of us...SIKHI si LIFE LONG LEARNING..it never stops...

Cheers to all


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 10, 2009)

tony said:


> I have heard hair is used for the making of vitamin D2 which is correct *but only when the skin is completly covered and sunlight can not touch the skin i.e. animals with fur.*


Where are you getting this from?
Skin produces some types of vitamin D if I am not mistaken.
People keep asking why do we keep our hair long? 
What?!? Why shouldn't we? Did we not evolve with long hair? Are long hair not a signature distinction of man from animals? 

Do scientists understand why humans have long hair? Nope
Theories include, sexual selection - we are able to tell how healthy someon is by looking at their hair, so selection of a mate
Its a vestigial trait - long hair did not hinder our survival so we did not lose it, like our appendix
Functional - babies have strong grip. Why? So they can latch on to something... picture a koala with baby... replace mother koala with a human... replace baby koala with a human child clung to the hair of the parent, as the human parent works away.

See nails need to keep growing thats why there is a need to cut them because our environment is different from what it was before. Now we cannot naturally keep our nails short. 

What are the reasons for cutting hair? Well, cutting of hairs was done to show control. Along with circumcision, which came later when haircuts were common. What's next??

Why were Sikhs told to keep long hair? because of the conversion process of Mughals. There seems to be no other solid reason.



> I always wonder about the kara and this is the nicest explanation I heard would love to know if this is right and if it is why has it been reduced in size.


The kara shows commitment, only little bits of the metal go through your skin. IN fact the hair on my right arm are slightly healthier, more shiny than teh hair on my left arm. I assume this is because of my kara. You can use a big one in self defense but other than that its pretty pointless. 



> the kachera seems pretty logical but are they neccassery now days, how many Sikhs ride horses.


Have you ever worn a kachera? Its the most comfortable thing ever!!




> The kirpan a means to protect is very out dated. one if you used it in self defence in England and the other person wasnt armed you would have a job proving that it wasnt excessive force, Most people who have claimed it was in selfdefence have failed and are doing time, also if you pull a knife out your quite likely to get shot these days and these also the fact that if one carries a weapon the other will get a bigger/ better weapon hence the nuclear arms race. thank you for your posting but still it hasnt shed any light on the need for them,


Kirpan is useless and outdates like you said. A kara works better for self defense anyways. About it being a sumbol for protection of the weak... Who does that?? And even if you didn't have a kirpan, oyu would be able to help someone.
If nothing else a kirpan looks cool. REMOVED by poster




> Hair cannot give you strength or energy, it is dead from the moment it leaves the folical it cannot repair its self nor does it require any more nutrients after being cut than if it is left uncut. It grows at the same rate reguardless,


No sir. You will consume more materials to try and build cut hair than if your hair are uncut. Because once a hair grows to a certain length it stops. If you cut it it has to keep growing. WE assume in both cases the shedding rate is the same.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 10, 2009)

ਬੰਕੇ ਬਾਲ ਪਾਗ ਸਿਰਿ ਡੇਰੀ ॥
बंके बाल पाग सिरि डेरी ॥
Banke bāl pāg sir derī.
You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਭਸਮ ਕੀ ਢੇਰੀ ॥੩॥
इहु तनु होइगो भसम की ढेरी ॥३॥
Ih ṯan ho▫igo bẖasam kī dẖerī. ||3||
But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||
Page 659, Line 5

ਮੂੰਡੁ ਮੁਡਾਇ ਜਟਾ ਸਿਖ ਬਾਧੀ ਮੋਨਿ ਰਹੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
मूंडु मुडाइ जटा सिख बाधी मोनि रहै अभिमाना ॥
Mūnd mudā▫e jatā sikẖ bāḏẖī mon rahai abẖimānā.
Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it in braids, while some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride. [I would add any other type of hairstyle, it seems to make sense to do so; long hair, short hair, everything!]
ਮਨੂਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਤ ਆਤਮ ਗਿਆਨਾ ॥
मनूआ डोलै दह दिस धावै बिनु रत आतम गिआना ॥
Manū▫ā dolai ḏah ḏis ḏẖāvai bin raṯ āṯam gi▫ānā.
Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ॥
अम्रितु छोडि महा बिखु पीवै माइआ का देवाना ॥
Amriṯ cẖẖod mahā bikẖ pīvai mā▫i▫ā kā ḏevānā.
They abandon the Ambrosial Nectar, and drink the deadly poison, driven mad by Maya.
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਪਸੂਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੫॥
किरतु न मिटई हुकमु न बूझै पसूआ माहि समाना ॥५॥
Kiraṯ na mit▫ī hukam na būjẖai pasū▫ā māhi samānā. ||5||
Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord's Command, they become beasts. ||5||
Page 1013, Line 5'



ਨਾਮਾ ਕਹੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਕੇਸਵ ਅਜਹੂੰ ਬਲਿ ਕੇ ਦੁਆਰ ਖਰੋ ॥੪॥੧॥
नामा कहै भगति बसि केसव अजहूं बलि के दुआर खरो ॥४॥१॥
Nāmā kahai bẖagaṯ bas kesav ajahūŉ bal ke ḏu▫ār kẖaro. ||4||1||
Says Naam Dayv, the beautiful-haired Lord is in the power of His devotees; He is standing at Balraja's door, even now! ||4||1||
Page 1105, Line 13
Here NamDev ji is talking about the incarnations of Vishnu (God). These guys all had long hair. (referring to Jarnail Singh ji's post)
ਕਬੀਰ ਕੇਸੋ ਕੇਸੋ ਕੂਕੀਐ ਨ ਸੋਈਐ ਅਸਾਰ ॥
कबीर केसो केसो कूकीऐ न सोईऐ असार ॥
Kabīr keso keso kūkī▫ai na so▫ī▫ai asār.
Kabeer, chant the Name of the Beautifully-haired Lord; do not sleep unaware.
ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਵਸ ਕੇ ਕੂਕਨੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਕੇ ਸੁਨੈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥੨੨੩॥
राति दिवस के कूकने कबहू के सुनै पुकार ॥२२३॥
Rāṯ ḏivas ke kūkne kabhū ke sunai pukār. ||223||
Chanting His Name night and day, the Lord will eventually hear your call. ||223||
Page 1376. Kabeer is talking about Ram here. Ram is shown to have long hair. All one has to do is look at how he starts the shabad off. 
Here: ਕਬੀਰ *ਰਾਮੁ* ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਫਿਰਿਆ ਲਾਲਚ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
कबीर *रामु* न चेतिओ फिरिआ लालच माहि ॥ 
Kabīr *rām* na cẖeṯi▫o firi▫ā lālacẖ māhi. 
Kabeer, the mortal does not remember the *Lord*; he wanders around, engrossed in greed. 



ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
कबीर प्रीति इक सिउ कीए आन दुबिधा जाइ ॥
Kabīr parīṯ ik si▫o kī▫e ān ḏubiḏẖā jā▫e.
Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥
भावै लांबे केस करु भावै घररि मुडाइ ॥२५॥
Bẖāvai lāŉbe kes kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā▫e. ||25||
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
kabir Ji Clearly says when you realize God it does not matter if you keep long hair or not. Reading the pargraph below or above is not changing the meaning here.

*Conclusion: hair = neutral in Sikhism, they do not add to your good deeds nor your spirituality. keep them if you wish, otherwise, cut, whatever. noone gives a hoot!*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 10, 2009)

Dear All,

Thanks for the participation in this discussion and came to know this is all the members we have on this forum.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## tony (Apr 10, 2009)

Dear Bhagat Singh ji
How can one describe God with long flowing hair when God is beyond description. Has the Hukam ever been verified and who by, If I dont ask questions how can I find answers. And I do try to follow the Gurus teachings as per SGGS ji. Btw you seem to have all the answers a little bit of I know may be. and I thought it was supposed to be Gods servant not the Gurus slave. you have made your choice please allow me to make mine based on the truth. An identity creates ego, leave it with you to think about
Tony


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## spnadmin (Apr 10, 2009)

tony ji

I have been following the discussion and cannot help but feel how frustrated you are. May I offer an answer from a different angle.

The reasons for the 5 K's may not be found in answers stemming from another's "truth." This seems to be what you are looking for: reasoning and experiences that will convince you even as they have worked for someone else. That could be why you keep posing the same question in different ways. 

My two cents on this. You will be convinced to keep  Kara   Kesh Kanga Kachera Kirpan by reasons that come from within you yourself. If the time comes then the reasons will be clear to you. No one else will convince you. If I am wrong and you are not feeling frustrated, then please forgive me.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 10, 2009)

tony said:


> two very strong statements to ignore your post in future no moral content just ego,


Tony Ji please reconsider my post.


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## spnadmin (Apr 10, 2009)

*Thank you Bhagat ji

The offending remark has been removed. I am now going to remove all of the recent conversation out of the thread to clean it up and get back to the main topic.

Antonia*


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## tony (Apr 10, 2009)

Thank you Antonia ji sorry for the mistake.
 I will clarify the vitamin D2 subject. the skin produces D2 in contact with sun light (Uvb). if the skin is completly covered by hair/ fur then the sunlight (uvb) is transmitted to the skin by the hair/ fur. Hair/ fur transmitts light like optical fibres. They are only of any use if the skin is completly covered. obsolete in humans as it only takes a small area of skin to be in contact with sunlight to produce enough d2 for the absorbtion of calcium. Hair in a healthy human doesnt stop growing its length is determined by the rate at which it falls out or how long a folicle keeps it.
Dear Bhagat ji i have reread your posts and see now you have put both sides of the agruement over and very well. I accept that the reason was to show none conversion to the muslim faith and see this as the most possible reason. As for the Kacheera, no I havent tried them but they look like tracky bottoms and do look comfortable. The reason I started this though was to find out from others how they help one to become better, what they are actually for, the reason why guru ji said there was a need for them. The best Ive heard is Guru ji said, so thats enough, but no one knows why Guru ji said, What was his reason, All here are happy to discus and disect the SGGS ji, questioning the meanings, Interpritating each and every line, some to help, some to twist, but none ever question nor seem to know why Guru Gobing Singh ji said why they where needed or where I can find this Hukam, Most are happy to just accept without asking, If some could say why or even give examples of how they help, other than they act as a quick reminder of how to act then that would be of more help. 
thanks to all for your answers so far, all that have been on the subject have been helpful please continue
Tony


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 10, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

Sikh Symbols and there value IMHO;

Spiritually speaking all Sikh symbols (turban/patka) are more of a deterrent to misconduct or bad deeds (ਦੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ) rather than progress in spirituality. Since a Sikh is recognized as a distinct individual by symbols, which helps in his identification, thus deterring the individual Sikh to stay away from the sleazy joints and acts? Indirectly this way symbols help one becoming a better human, if intentions are good. 

*Sabd Guru translates symbols of any religion in to virtues and good deeds (ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ).*

*Other explanations;*

*Hairs*- for identity.

*Comb-* Hygienic value for hairs.

*Kachha*- Horse riding or deterring sexual activity.

*Kirpan*- Defensive weapon.

*Karha*- To remind when doing an immoral act with right hand or when thick to protect the wrist during a fight.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## pk70 (Apr 11, 2009)

*None of the 5 Kakaar is out dated as some claim due to having inability to understand their importance.
Remember, Khalsa was created when the society was ruled with tyranny, it was literally a lawless society. Kirpan has been a symbol of power even today its considered a symbol of power. Guru ji didn't add " spear" in five Kakars though  that was more effective from distance. So obviously "kirpan(Sword) represents sybol, of power, it should be kept. Guru Sahib' Hukamname indicate " Guru ji was more interested in arming Sikhs" Today, Sikhs must have arms that are suitable to today's time. No one can be safe any where, genocide can happen anywhere, if concept of being armed is taken in right meaning, it is very useful. Mocking at "kirpan" is nothing but childish mockery. Its should be taken as a symbol and inspiration for self defence and protection of the weak as Guru ji offered. Today  if some one has a problem in wearing them, its fine. Questioning others who wear unnecessarily is not right thing to do. Dr Bhai Sahib Bhai Harbans Lal Ji is a Sehajdhari Gursikh who has contributed a lot in context of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he never attacked 5 Kakars. This example shows how to be Sikh without beating drums of one's one MONMATT.
You have choice, whatever you have made, it is fine but please respect what others like.
Thanks.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 11, 2009)

PK 70 Ji,
You are absolutely right. DR Harbans lal ji has never kept the 5 K's and never criticised them or tried to show through Gurbani quotes from SGGs as ....irrelevant....or just ordained by Guru Gobind Singh ji simply for his time/and thus not relevant TODAY.
Theres is total freedom of speech/thought in Sikhi...no one is forced to be anythning he/she doesnt want to be - he can be keshless or he can keep kesh - personal choice sanctioned by Sikh society and the SGGS. I see no reason to go to extra ordinary lengths to "search" Gurbani to find tuks that seemingly sanction the "useless/needless/not necessary/out of date etc etc " of the 5 Kakaars....in other words misuse Gurbani to support their own personal decison NOT to use/wear the 5 Kakars as "SANCTIONED BY SGGS"...and thus seek to persuade others to follow their chosen path. Variosu self guessed population statistics, populatioon figures etc are also freqeuntly cited to support  the notion that "practically EVERYBODY has abandoned the 5 kakars"...only a tiny fringe minority are making an issue/raisng  a fuss about all these 5 kakaars..dastaars etc etc.
Its rather surprising that this "tiny fringe minority" are daily WINNING BATTLES all round the world to the RIGHT to Dastaar..Kirpan..and the 80-90% MAJORITY who dont have dastaars/kirpans are still quite hot under their collars..over this...why ??
It would be better for all of us to write articles and discuss how to control lust..krodh..hankaar..lobh..maya....perform Honest labour..Waand chhakna.. Nam simran etc etc by quoting GURBANI from SGGS.... Lets make an effort to be good sikhs..then good khalsa..or the other way around..personal choice...BOTH are good. The SGGS CANNOT be separated from GURU GOBIND SINGH JI and his Commands because whatever Guru Gobind Singh ji ordained for the Khalsa in 1699 is BASED ON SGGS as it was HE that Commanded that SGGS is our GURU. How can He then ordain his Khalsa to follow something that is agaisnt/not in the SGGS.:happy:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 11, 2009)

Dear All,

Here again the thread is being twisted by members and spinned out of proportion. Tony Ji asked a question and I tried to answer it with the best of my ability. If the members differ so be it. I have written and posted the articles on 5 lower instincts and 5 virtues. There was hardly any debate over them.
I have lived and known Bhai Harbans Lal for 30 years. It is not prudent to bring his name here. One of the examples I gave some where in my threads came from him about 5 K's but I did not name him nor I will bring the subject again.
The answers I gave about 5 K's are written on a board out side a Gurudwara in New Delhi, where Guru Tegh Bahadur's body was cremated.

Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder


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## dalbirk (Apr 11, 2009)

Tony Ji ,
IMHO 5Ks r necessary to underline the following characteristics :
1. HAIR - Hair represent Sikhs' unique identity . Sikhs r made to be distinct ( unique ) from Hindus , so that Sikhism may flourish & prosper avoiding ill-effects of Brahminism ( Hinduism ) , not merged back into Hinduism as all of the previous faiths like Buddhism , Jainism , Bhakti Movement , Yogism were done in by the alkaline sea of Brahminism & no trace of them is left in the world today . Another reason is that Hair is treated as a gift of God & we live by the Hukm ( ordinance ) of God . Hair have living current in them known as Prakash (light ) , which is why a face with a flowing beard is more radiant than a clean-shaven one . A lady with a clean shaven head is often thought to less graceful & less beautiful than a lady with long hair . Hair change colour with age , stops growing after attaining a certain length , which shows it is an inseparable part of human identity but keeps on growing if we continue to cut it . On other hand human nails have two parts , dead & alive .The part of nails we cut is the DEAD PART . Nails don't stop growing even after we don't cut them . Dastaar though not apart of 5Ks comes along . Dastaar was made mandatory when Mughals prohibted any natives ( Mainly Hindus ) from wearing turbans as it was the sign of royality & only noble Muslims were allowed this luxury .
2. Kangha - A sign of cleaniness to maintain cleaniness of Hair as well as whole body .
3. Kirpaan - For self defence & also of the weak against any tyranny .
4. Kachera - A reminder of chastity & high moral character a Sikh is required to maintain .Even today a Sikh co-habiting with a person other than his/her own spouse is considered APOSTATE ( Sikh Rehat Maryada )
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India
5. Kara - A reminder to Sikh that anything he is doing with his ( right ) hand should be as per the order of the Guru . Nothing which is prohibted by the Guru should be done . Another arguement some times comes is that a round Kara is a reminder of the infinite God who has no beginning & no end . This is what I have made of 5Ks with whatever little understanding I have .
One more thing is that for Sikhs it should be a open & shut case regarding 5Ks because our TENTH MASTER made it mandatory . We have to stop trying being SUPER GURUS & just feel proud to be Sikh ( the one who learns by following the Guru ) .
Regards,
Dalbir Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 11, 2009)

Dear Dalbir Ji,

Thanks for clarifying the 5 K's.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 11, 2009)

Pk70 ji writes:



> Dr Bhai Sahib Bhai Harbans Lal Ji is a *Sehajdhari Gursikh* who has contributed a lot in context of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he never attacked 5 Kakars.


 
I need some clarification from the Sadh sangat.

1. What is a Sehajdhari Sikh?

2. What is a Sehajdhari Gursikh and any difference in the two? If there is, please elaborate for my understanding.

And following is the post #11 in this same thread I am reposting because there was no response to it:

Dear Sadh Sangat,

I need your help in finding the answers to the following:

1.Are all 25 millions Sikhs Keshsdhari or does this number also include Sehajdharis, meaning people who do not keep unshorn hair?

2.If all 25 millions are Keshadhari Sikhs, then how many have taken Kandei De pahul?​ 
3.How many Sehajdhari Sikhs are there?​ 
4. Does SGPC keep any stats to find out the above?​ 
Thanks​ 
Tejwant Singh​


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## spnadmin (Apr 11, 2009)

Tejwant ji

In a moment of humor (and no one was there to hear but myself) I wondered -- what about someone like me who is semi-keshdhari? Of course there is no such thing. But the idea of sehajdhari is of a progression, with different people at different milestones marking their progress. Alas, there are times when I am not sure whether we have decided what we are progressing toward. I would still say that taking any one or two or three or more of he K's has to be a very personal thing. No one else can tell you in the end why you should do it. You do it because it makes sense to you because of your own reasons that lie deep within. There is a saying -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Who would give a horse a lecture saying -- Look I brought you all the way over here to this pond and now you are stalling and taking your time! You are thristy and here is the pond. Take a drink! You have to do that! When the horse is ready it will drink.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 11, 2009)

Dear Aad Ji,

I totally agree with you-it is not the 5 K's but the spirituality/faith or what ever is personal and private. No one has any right in judging or telling any one but one's own self says Guru Angad in Raag Majh;

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਖੇ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤਾ ਪਾਰਖੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਰੋਗੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਦੋਵੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਤਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

_Nānak parkẖė āp ka¬o ṯā pārakẖ jāṇ. Rog ḏārū ḏovai bujẖai ṯā vaiḏ sujāṇ._

O Nanak, if someone judges himself, only then is he known as a real judge. If someone understands both the disease and the medicine, only then is he a wise physician.
                                                                -----Guru Angad Dev, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 148-8
Guru Nanak in Raag Asa;

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਟਿ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ॥ਪਤਿ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੋਲਿਆ ਜਾਪੈ ॥

_Sabh Ko Poora Aapay Hovai Ghat Na Ko-ee Aakhai, pat parvaanaa pichhai paa-ee-ai taa naanak toli-aa jaapai.  
_ 
Every one deems himself perfect, and none calls himself imperfect. If the weight of honor is placed on the scale, then, O Nanak, one sees his true weight.
                                                                          -----Guru Nanak, Asa Di Var, AGGS, Page, 469-4
Thanks for your comments.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 11, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> In a moment of humor (and no one was there to hear but myself) I wondered -- what about someone like me who is semi-keshdhari? Of course there is no such thing. But the idea of sehajdhari is of a progression, with different people at different milestones marking their progress. Alas, there are times when I am not sure whether we have decided what we are progressing toward. I would still say that taking any one or two or three or more of he K's has to be a very personal thing. No one else can tell you in the end why you should do it. You do it because it makes sense to you because of your own reasons that lie deep within. There is a saying -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Who would give a horse a lecture saying -- Look I brought you all the way over here to this pond and now you are stalling and taking your time! You are thristy and here is the pond. Take a drink! You have to do that! When the horse is ready it will drink.


 
Aad ji,

Guru Fateh.

When I was writing this post, you were on my mind and I must confess that your quest demonstrates through your posts how close you feel yourself to Ik Ong Kaar no matter what kind of 'Dhari' you are in my opinion. The fact is that Sikhi glows in your posts.

Keep up the good work and keep on teaching us about Sikhi from your facet.

Thanks for your contributions and insights.

Tejwant Singh


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## tony (Apr 11, 2009)

Dear All
Thank you Virinder ji and Dalbirk ji for telling me what they are intended to do, Dalbirk ji your explanation of hair is the best I've heard and makes a lot of sense. Not sure that a face with a flowing beard looks more radiant though but I'll leave that to personal opion and not dispute it. You mentioned co-habitating with some one other than your spouse being an Apostate, what is an Apostate please.
Pk70 ji 
No one is critising or mocking those who carry them, I'm only asking why so that I and others can get a better understanding of them, If one doesnt ask why then one wears them in blind faith. If Guru Nanak ji didnt question others believes he would have had a thread round is neck and Sikhism wouldnt excist. I am asking so as to learn. You stated the Kirpan is a symbol of power is that appropriate to Sikhism. May I also take it that with your statement that Sikhs should have arms suitable to todays times that you think Sikhs should swop there Kirpan for a Magnum. I have no problem in wearing the five K's just want to no why they are there.
Gyani ji 
You have stated that many use Gurbani and twist it to justify the need not to wear them, however I have noticed that on the subject of hair it is the other way round, many quotes are twisted to say that you must have them, constant one liners to show hair is mentioned but they are taken out of context, many have gone to extraordinary lenghts to show this. I accept it is a personal choice to wear/ not to wear them and havent witnessed any one trying to persuade any one to follow any chosen path either way. I am very happy to see anyone win the right to wear them as this is a victory for freedom. As the SGGS doesnt mention them, How else is a person supposed to find out why we have them. I have only asked for someone to point me in the right direction to where the Hukam is that states it, Yet as to date no one has all I get is that its from the tenth Nanak ji but no one can or has said where I might find it. Your are right and I do not disagree that Guru ji said that the SGGS was to be the final Guru ji and that all a Sikh needs to know is in it, As this hukam isnt then the question must arise as to why. I'm not having ago at any body just asking thats all, not hot under the collar just a simple question that no one has answered yet.
Antonia ji
I agree with you that its something you do when your ready and hopefully this thread might help me towards doing it, The thing is that when I first started reading about Sikhism ten years ago, I read that the five items that Guru ji gave the Panj pyar wheren't the five K's as is today, it said that they where five different types of weapons, a short dagger, the kirpan, a spear, a bow and arrow and a rifle, which if you where making an army would make more sense, and that the Khalsa where told not to cut their hair at that time as it would have been seen as a sign of convertion to islam, just a rebel thing to show the mogul rulers that they wouldnt conform. The reason it was never added to the SGGS was that it was thought that the moguls would not be in India for ever, so therefore the need to rebel would come to an end and so would the need for arms. Whether there will ever be peace amonst all men and the need for arms will be lost is up to mankind, but while ever one side carries them the other side will always strive to get bigger/ better arms. this is why I ask is there still a need for hair and a Kirpan.
I am still open to reasons for them and would still love for some one to show me where I can find this Hukam. 
Tony


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 11, 2009)

Tony Ji,
Guru nanak ji is the BEST.
On Page 595...He says.Man Hali Kirsanee karnee...
Read the whole shabd in Raag Sorath...
The Metaphor used is of the Farmer...in his fields...
WE are that FARMER..and the Filed is our Mann..the Mind.
First  a Farmer tills the field..ploughs it..
Then he Sows the seeds..
Then he Levels it..called SUHAGA PHERNA..a sort of heavy log is dragged all over the field levelling it.
Then he waters it and takes care of the crops.
The Mann is the Field..the Naam is the seed... the Levelling log is SANTOKH..contentment and taking care is through HUMILITY.
Here TIME is of the essence..Tilling/seeding/etc OUT OF SEASON/TIME is utterly uselss.
The Leveller log (SANTOKH - CONTMENT) is to HIDE the seeds from the BIRDS of HAUMAII !!
There is a time and place for everything...Time and tide wait for no Man.
Just like just about everyone is running madly after RICHES...very few attain real riches..a large percentage are Middle Income...and huge percentage are Below the Povert line.
Similarly in the Religious/Spiritual filed..also MOST are Middle Income..Vast majority are Below the Povery Line..ONLY a FEW are "really rich". Everyone has a chance to GROW..but very few really DO.
Next Guru nanak ji goes for the Metaphor of the Shopkeepr..
Haann hatt kar aarja..Page 595 raag sorath.
What does a Shopkeepr do ? He stocks a variety of goods..and a good shopkeepr knows EXACTLY what is where ? When a customer requests ...say sugar..the shopkeeper gives him sugar and NOT salt. Thus the customer is happy..the buisness grows. What IF the shopkeepr always gives out salt when sugar si requested ? Or cant find the stuff ?? Or die to sloppy storage..the salt is mixed with sugar ??
WE are that SLOPPY SHOPKEEPER. We DONT KNOW WHERE TO KEEP a valuable thing as NAAM !! How high and valuable Naam is..In which Bhnada..vessel to keep it ? A good shopkeepr keeps OIL in earthenware/glass container...not a basket.
First of all VERY FEW really know what NAAM is. Some find out..and dont know how to USE IT...others begin to HAWK IT..rather than USE it.
Guru nanak ji teaches us how to LIVE LIFE...Jeewan Jaach...He says..Farming is good..the Jatt is good, the shopkeepr is Good..sales is good..business is good...everything and everyone is GOOD..provided the RIGHT WAY and RIGHT METHOD is used/applied.
Guur Ji uses the Buisness Metaphor next..Sunn sasat saudagree Page 595 Sorath..
The RIGHT Merchandise, must be transported in the RIGHT manner, on the RIGHT Transport, and sent to the RIGHT PLACE at the RIGHT TIME and sold at the RIGHT PRICE and used in the RIGHT manner. Only then cna hte business PROSPER and not go bankrupt.
But what do we do..We CHEAT in buisness..sell shoddy goods...use the cheapest materials..high prices..out of date methods etc and still want SUCCESS. Sure..we becoem RICH..collect large properties..think we have RESPECT..actually we are LOSING even the "Capital" we were born with.
Then Guru Ji talsk about the WORKING CLASS..the Naukars..the "salary earning class".. One may be a clerk,,a Doctor..a Headmaster..a Govt Officer..a Trainer..a Teacher...IF one doesnt do ones work with HONESTY as expected of hsi "job description/duty" then ones not doing whats expected. A Doctor who paints a nasty picture to hsi patient just so that hecan frighten him into more surgeries/vitamins etc so he can buy that New Merc/Boat he wants for his retirement..or the Teacher who is lazy and relies on last years exam questions only...Corruption, dishonesty..are all at its peak. NO one talks about FARZ..DUTY..everyone is screaming about "AUTHORITY"..I am the SENIOR..I KNOW MORE..I am the EXPERT...the BEST..How dare you twist my words..are you "sincere " ?? 
GURU NANAK ji Prepared the FIELDS... Each of the following GURUS..planted the seeds..and the Final CROP is GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. It is totally wrong to say that One GURU is dIFFERENT...says different..talks different....No way the "seed" that Guru nanak ji planted looks like the Ripe Crop that Guru Gobind Singh ji has for us.
Guru nanak broke all TRADITIONS..he chose Guru Angad based solely on GUNN...no preferences..no blood relationships.. and NONE of the other GURUS differed in any way from the FOUNDATIONS set by Guru nanak ji. The SIKH GURUS are developing the SIKH....from SEED to FULL SROOP...through TEN Generations. IF it was just and simply INTERNAL GUNNS..then ONLY GURU NANAK JI is ENOUGH..Guru nanak ji has already SAID and written ENOUGH on this subject..IN FACT all the other Gurus are REPEATING and RESTRESSING/EXPANDING on GURU NANAK JI. It is clear the EXTERNAL is being DEVELOPED through the NINE Following GURUS...while STRENGTHENING THE INTERNAL goes on as a Continous process from 1469- 1699.

AT KESHGARH SAHIB...GURU GOBIND SINGH DREW  a PHYSICAL NAKED SWORD...and demanded a HEAD.
He DID NOT "unsheath the GYAAN KHARRAG" !! Couldnt He have just "demanded" a head WITHOUT SHOWING THE NAKED PHYSICAL SWORD ?? I have just two questions. WHY Name this place "KESHGARH" and WHY draw a naked SWORD ? The GYAAN KHARRAGG had been used/REINFORCED for the past 200 years..in SGGS....and SIKHS had been GIVING thier HEADS..in the FOUR Battles of Guru hargobind JI.....why the NEED to unsheath the Physical Sword and ask for heads once again ?? Is this just DRAMA ??

2. Guur Gobind Singh Ji gave 5 TEERS - personal arrows tipped with gold tip  to Banda Singh bahadur when he was given PAHUL, RE-Named banda SINGH from banda Bairagi (sadhu) as  aMark of AUTHORITY wehn Banda Singh was despatched to PUNJAB. Panj Piayaras and Five weapons. NO. Could be a writing by a maverick..as NO reputable historian mentions any such 5 weapons - Again the DECIDING FACTOR- *KESHGARH SAHIB* where the 5 Piayaras were chosen and HONOURED.

3. Read the 1984 annals of recent History in India...the very first thing the MOBS would do to a KESHADHAREE SIKH was to CUT his hair and BEARD "BEFORE" placing a tyre around him and dousing him with petrol. Kerosene was poured into the KESH and set on fire. It is OBVIOUS..the KESH sets the hearts of all ABLAZE..the "css" among sikhs as well as the enemies of Sikhs outside. The KESH is the greatest HURDLE these cannot surmount....and to hide this..they search for arguments to attack the other four Kakars. NONE of the SIKHS in 1984 were earmarked for "CONVERSION"...the mobs were not interested in CONVERTING THEM...just for killing. Thus is totally demolished the spurious argument that the MUGHALS were "converting" and thus into cutting hair...just for that. Then and NOW..its the KESH that count...MOST. I am not in possession of any statistics...BUT i am sure ONLY KESHADHAREE SIKHS" weere targettd by the MOBS in 1984 simply because thats the easiest way to IDENTIFY a SIKH. A CSS is a "HINDU" for them... - as nobody can "see" his clean insides...and thus conclude he is really a sikh.
So much for ..living in the PAST..etc etc..THIS is 21st century TODAY...no one is living in the past....except maybe those still stuck to interpreting the SGGS in terms of pre-1699 only. I am living in the POST 1708 period...

3. You are free to do as you wish....thats called FREEDOM OF CHOICE..Be a GOOD sikh..slow and sure..all yours..matey... and I will never acuse you of twisting or turning my words...not my style at all.
HAPPY SIKHI..all the WAY..:happy:


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## pk70 (Apr 11, 2009)

Response to TonyPk70 ji 
No one is critising or mocking those who carry them, I'm only asking why so that I and others can get a better understanding of them, If one doesnt ask why then one wears them in blind faith. If Guru Nanak ji didnt question others believes he would have had a thread round is neck and Sikhism wouldnt excist. I am asking so as to learn. You stated the Kirpan is a symbol of power is that appropriate to Sikhism. May I also take it that with your statement that Sikhs should have arms suitable to todays times that you think Sikhs should swop there Kirpan for a Magnum. I have no problem in wearing the five K's just want to no why they are there.
Toni ji(*quote Toni Ji)*
*Tony Ji*
*Guru Nanak dint question whatever a true Guru told people to do, he questioned whatever was set up by religious so called exploiters, 5 Kakaars were given by Satguru Gobind Singh Ji, so that kind of questioning doesn’t align with Guru Nanak’s questioning.*
* Well if you are asking just due to being curious, other posters have already answered that. Five Kakars are different than thread wearing around the neck; it was answered by Respected Gyani Ji. Let me just concentrate on what I said. Toni ji, I don’t know about you, there are some Sikhs who do not like to wear them. It is O.K Toni ji, no one is criticizing them for not wearing them, if any one does, fails to understand Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Problem comes when they start quoting Gurbani to fortify their manmatt to preach others against 5 Kakaars by saying they are out dated.  I am amritdhari, I feel, if they cannot,  it’s alright  but they do not need to beat drums of their own opinion against 5 kakaars by saying they do not bring spirituality. That is laughable.  In over 20 years in US, due to turban, I lost financially and faced very derogatory comments. Nothing could change me, I am doing fine. Is this what I wear brings spirituality, no, it is actually battle within with five primal forces that makes the difference. *
*Sword is still a symbol though we have laser-guided weapon. That was another reason Guru chose this over spear which could be better weapon from distance. My opinion is that sword can be worn as symbol but other weapons must be achieved legally, as Guru’s insight, we must have to defend ourselves and to protect in case the weak is in danger. Had Sikhs in Delhi had new weapons, they couldn’t have butchered so easily. Even Amritdhari Sikhs should obtain new kinds of weapons for protection. In U.S, bear to arms is a right, people exercise it legally and diligently.*


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 12, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Tony Ji,
> Guru nanak ji is the BEST.
> On Page 595...He says.Man Hali Kirsanee karnee...
> Read the whole shabd in Raag Sorath...
> ...


*In stanza 32-33 Guru Nanak explains that the means to meet God is not simple and straight but abrupt and steep and one shall have to climb up the stairs of spirituality not by merely reciting His Name continuously but with His grace. Now are we entitled to get His grace by merely lifting the veil of Lower instincts-one of these is ego/Houmai. The answer lies in the pankti ‘karmi aavai kapda’ which as per my understanding is by lifting the veil of lower instincts we only get rebirth but nadri mokh duar. Bhagat Kabir defines about this path in this manner, “kbIr ijh mwrig pMifq gey pwCY prI bhIr ] iek AvGt GwtI rwm kI iqh ciV rihE kbIr ] - the crowds follow the path which the clergies, have laid down (which Mr.Grewel most of the time boost as majority). He says path to God has difficult and treacherous cliff and unlike joining the crowd, Kabeer is following alone that distinct path to the Divine of piercing through the GurShabad.” - Guru Granth ang.1373.7. Since it is not a trade-in or bargaining deal but a private affair of union, it cannot be achieved by the labor of other people, thus Guru Nanak eliminated the intermediatary. Though we know milk contains butter but mere churning will not produce butter, it has to be churn with a method. Same way we know God resides within us but mere mechanical repetition as imposter will not help us to realize God. It needs Gods grace. Can we get the grace by throwing our Husbands most revered and beautifully addressed hairs? Can we think of clean ourselves by disobeying His gifts? Can we think of stopping our mind roaming by disfiguring ourselves? Further, remember path to Him is not that easy that you pay the money to bhaiji with long hairs and he does prayer for you. It is, “KMinAhu iqKI vwlhu inkI eyqu mwrig jwxw ] - sharper than the edge of a double-edged sword and finer than a hair, thus to pass this corridor with other’s labor is out of question.” - Guru Granth p-918.19. Thus everyone must be saint and sipahi.*
*Best regards *
*Sahni Mohinder*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 12, 2009)

*“kbIr ijh mwrig pMifq gey pwCY prI bhIr ]**iek AvGt GwtI rwm kI iqh ciV rihE kbIr ]  

*
Kudos to kabir Ji..again. For calling  a psade a spade...

MAJORITIES ??  Bahiir...is a large unending stream of "mindless" followers.....reminds one of the sheep going to slaughter...the huge crowds that Guru nanak Ji, Guru Amardass Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji saw and met at HARDWAAR/Kurkshetar MELA, at the Famous Mandirs of Jagn-nathpuri, ( JUGGERNAUT word comes from here)  at Mecca...constitute the MAJORITIES.
BUT the KHALSA of Guru nanak ji Sahib is NEVER - not then and Not Now and Not in the Future..ever a "Majority". We are advised to be "AAkllein Sahib Seveaah...Follow with the use of the God Given intellect and not blindly....thus of necessity the KHALSA will always be the FEW..( Not CHOSEN ONES..but those who CHOSE to..) because the paath chosen is as Saini ji illustrates..thinner than the sharpest blade of the KHANDA which is used to prepare the PAHUL - the Real Steel stuff ..not Gyaan da Khanda whcich no one can "see*"...*SYMBOLISM of Gyan da khanda revealed for all to see !! This difficult path is  a personal choice - voluntary and made with conviction after reaching of age of maturity is open to all SIKHS and Non-SIKHS alike and none is admitted by birth/privilege/social standing/..in fact all previous connections are decimated..Janam nash, Kul Naash, Dharam Naash..life begins anew..fresh and radiant...the perfect conclusion..TRANSFORMATION of a SAINT into a SIPAHI as well.
Tyrranny, injustice,bad rulers, corrupt leaders, etc etc  are not a thing of the past..never will. These will always exist - thus the Sant-Sipahi will always be "Need of the Times" and not "outdated" or "dated to 17th Century. Only a 'visible" named, Card Carying citizen willing to be COUNTED will matter..others will blend in with the nameless "majorities" that prefer to remain "anonymous". Perfectly all right..and acceptable. !! Absolutley NO PROBLEM accepting that choice - its the RIGHT of the PERSON.

2. Sehajdharees as originally were the utmost humble members who preferred to stay in the background and do seva..serve almost anonymously. I have had the pleasure to deal many Sindhi Sehajdharees...they were happy to do kirtan, seva, and assemble alongside the Khalsa . They knew the Paath the SGGS intimately. never wanted anythign to do with Elections/managemnt etc...

Its the "modern SIKH BORN..mostly "JATT Caste" Sikhs that refuse/chose not to/dont want the Pahul/Khalsa Brotherhood BUT demand as a matter of RIGHT the positions of Pardhaans/Skattars and Management of Gurdwaras as "equals" of the SANT-SIPAHIS (  while laying claim only to the "SANTS" part ( absolutley difficult to cultivate and prove)  and refusing the SIPAHI part as totally irrelvant/useless) that is the crux of the problem. Their claim is "MAJORITY"..we are the MAJORITY...GIVE us CONTROL. the age old war over "territory". Interestingly the Western Sikhs who are ALL SANT-SIPAHIS (and genuinely Sehajdharees only for a short while) face no such battles for control in their Gurdwaras..this is the way of the Khalsa. It is mostly a PUNJABI problem..mainly a JATT problem !! Even more interestingly..those Jatt Born progeny who have left the Gurdwaras alltogether..are into "territorial wars" of another kind as well..the GANGSTER WARS of Canada..for the very first time in Sikh history we have so many  "SIKH" GANGS and killings and MAJORITY of these are not Keshadharee and they are jatt born.*.. *and this is result of a lot of factors, one of which is missing religion. First generation ONLY grad-dad has Dastaar...Son has some gurbani/punjabi knowledge....but..no KESH..next generation..timbuktoo !!no punjabi knolwedge..no gurbani..nothing...blended into majority.*
*This is a MAJOR problem..i dont have any statistics ( neither have the others ) and the SIKH Communiity will have to face and solve somehow .....but certainly the problem cannot go away by selective chocie of Tuks from SGGS to reinforce the "MAJORITY IS RIGHT"..and that SGGS sanctions the SANT ONLY part of the equation. This is a totally false premise that cannot stand scrutiny. The Tenth nanak did NOT break with the other Nine to go about His own way - He gave Gurgadee to SGGs and He followed to the letter the WAY of the Nine nanaks preceeding Him. Those who beleive in this may be a "MINORITY"..but this minority will NEVER go away/disappear/vanish/relinquish the SANT-SIPAHI tradition of GURU NANAK JYOT.
All "assumptions" mine and mine alone..NO Offense to anyone and none taken. my own opinions.:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 12, 2009)

Here is an inspirational story from the USA
                       SPIRITUALITY                 
                                                                       TheStar.com | GTA | White by birth, Sikh by choice             
             White by birth, Sikh by choice






  					 						RICHARD LAUTENS/TORONTO STAR 					
 					 						Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa — formerly Gordon Grossman — attracts many covert but curious glances. He says he is "past the stage of (caring about) people staring." 					








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                                                                                                         	                            		  		 			Quest for enlightenment led from United Church to yoga and ashrams

                     		                                                     Apr 11, 2009 04:30 AM             
TheStar.com | GTA | White by birth, Sikh by choice

 		         Raheel Raza             
                                                                             SPECIAL TO THE STAR

When a few thousand Sikhs take to the streets on April 26 to celebrate Vaisakhi, a man who was one of the _Punj Piaray _(the beloved and revered group of five) to lead the parade in 1997 and 1998 is likely to be walking along, inconspicuously this time. 
But isolated from the crowd, Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa is a sight to behold. In multicultural Canada, his traditional Sikh outfit of "Bana" (flowing shirt and pants), turban and beard should perhaps not be at odds with his white skin and green eyes. And yet, they are. He attracts covert but curious glances. 
"I'm past the stage of (caring about) people staring," he says with a hearty laugh over a green tea in a coffee shop downtown. 
When we meet next, it is on the third floor of a beautifully restored home in the heart of Little Italy. This is the Guru Ram Das Ashram, where Singh _Sahib_ (or Singh Sir) – as he insists on being called – is speaking to his yoga students about self-esteem. A few minutes later, they start breathing exercises and yoga. One of his students, 29-year-old Jaya Smith, calls him a powerful teacher. "The yoga charges my inner energies," she says, "and his lectures before yoga are spiritual and inspiring." 
Singh is no ordinary teacher. He combines spiritual teachings, music, chanting and yoga in his classes, inspiring students with his sense of humour and ready laughter.
He is comfortable with his identity and his attire, although he was born to neither.
Born Gordon Grossman to a United Church family in Thunder Bay, Ont., he grew up in Kingston during the era of the Vietnam War and Kent State, and anti-war demonstrations were rife. "At 8, I realized that as people grow older, they don't necessarily get happier. I didn't want to grow up like them, following just one trend of thought like sheep." He had ethical and moral questions about war, but found "adults were no good at answering these."
 He embarked on his own search for answers, reading Marx, Nietzsche and every philosophy book he could find. 
"I guess there was activism in me from childhood and I knew that everyone can make some difference. So at 14, I became a vegetarian and decided not to cut my hair because it's a natural growth." Out comes that hearty, booming laugh again as he adds: "That didn't sit too well with my mother."
At 16, he left home in search of a teacher. This led him to Vancouver, where he found Swami Janardan Paramahansaand and learned meditation. He also began the practice of Hatha Yoga with students of Swami Satchidananda.
"I had only one criterion at that time: my teacher must have long hair," Singh recalls. "And this one did, so I became a student."
But the thirst for wisdom remained. It was this search for enlightenment that led him to Sikhism. In 1972, he moved into a Sikh ashram in Toronto. Here, at last, he began to feel at home. 
"I found the Sikh tradition to be disciplined and open, and I related well to this," he says.
He found a teacher in Yogi Bhajan, a charismatic spiritual leader. And that's when Gordon Grossman became Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa. 
It is also when he "learned the concept of _Satnam_ – be true to yourself," he says, a concept that empowered his activism regarding issues of truth and justice."
*In 1976, Singh launched a successful case with the Canadian Human Rights Commission for his right as a Sikh to join the armed forces while wearing his turban and beard. He launched another case in 1979 to be allowed to drive a taxicab as an observant Sikh. *
Singh was married, but he divorced in 1995. His ex-wife moved to the U.S., although they both remained involved in the upbringing of their son, Himmat Singh. 
Himmat, now 21, graduated from Miri Piri Academy, a Sikh School near Amritsar, India, and now studies at a community college in Eugene, Ore. 
*Himmat, who is an observant turban-wearing Sikh, says, "I'm not as comfortable as my dad with my physical appearance but I'm very much like him." *
*He attributes his learning to his father. "Although I was born in a Sikh family, like other kids I questioned why I am Sikh," Himmat says. "Especially between the ages of 8 and 11, when other kids used to call me names like 'towel head.' " 
*

Over the years, he says, "I found I like the lifestyle and values and I was luckier than my Dad to have close friends who are Sikh."


:welcome:THIS is the attitude we all welcome....no compulsion..voluntary choice. Jarnail Singh.:happy:


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## tony (Apr 12, 2009)

Dear Gyani ji 
Thank you for your comments they are much appreciated and please believe me when i say that i am in no way against the five ks nor will i ever disrespect those who wear them, I'm not a jaat nor anyone else who is after taking control of the Gurdwaras I have enough problems with running my own life. Now you have asked me two questions

1. why was it called Keshgarh.
My answer is no idea as i dont speak panjabi, I have tried to look it up but could omly find the kesh/ kes, meaning unshorn/ untrimmed, could not find the word garh attached to kesh or unattached.

2. why did Guru Gobing Singh ji draw the naked sword
That seems pretty obvious, he wanted someone who would truly offer their head, look how long it took for each to decide to offer theirs and how few actually did, then look at how many and how quickly the rest did once they new he wasnt going to kill them, so may be not for drama but definetly to get only those who truly would sacrifise themselfs.
You dismissed the idea of 5 weapons quite quickly, why ?.
I will give you 5 with the letter K
1. Kirpaan
2. Khandha
3. Kaman (bow)
4. Katar
5. Karpa bharchla (a Spear)
only a thought 
You have mentioned 1984 and how the Sikhs had their hair cut before tyres where put round their neck and set alight. the reason for cutting their hair, again is simple what is the most precious thing for a Sikh after God. A good way for a muslim to humiliate a Sikh before death. One can deny that hair is not precious to a Sikh but look at the threads on hair.
In your second post you say that the perfect conclusion is the transformation of a saint into a sepahi what does this mean please. you also say that the card carrying ones willing to be counted are the ones that matter, I take it you mean the Amritdhari Sikhs. You seem to for get that it was the Sehajdhari Sikhs who risked their lifes daily to keep the Gurdwaras whilst the Amritdhari where in the jungles, Both sides risked their lives for Sikhism both sides deserve praise. I havent said nor attempted to separate the Guru jis and if others have then ask Antonia ji to remove that section of their post please.
Pk70 ji 
I have read your post and understand your view point, please understand that I'm not against the five K's ,I'm trying to get a proper prospective of them. I was of the uderstanding that Sikh = learner, how does one learn the truth without asking questions. You mentioned your situation in the U.S and how you suffered for your believes, I have suffered just as much during my life not for the same thing but still suffered. From the age of 5 till I was 15 I was bullied every day at school, the names they called me was normally based on the fact that I have dark skin for a white guy, so possible the same sort of names, also at the age of 9 because I had alapechia due to the stress of bullying I grew my hair to hide the bold spots. this only gave the bullies something to grab hold of, still wouldnt cut it. At 15 I struck back at the bullies, all 6 in the space of a week, and for my reprisals I got 3 mths from the courts in a youth detention center. in there they forcefully cut my hair. When i got out I grew it back and kept it till I was 19, and have been shaven in some form or other( many Punk styles ) all a form of none conformaty. Gyani ji says it is the card holders who count, but I would like to ask when was the last time any of us stood up in front of 50+ drunken yobs to protect an innocent, How many have scars on their face and body defending total strangers, how many have had bottles thrown at them for helping an outsider. how many really put their lifes on the line for something they believe in. I no one, one who worked a long side a Amritdhari who when it came to the crunch left his side to fight on his own on more than one occassion. How many of the Amritdhari Sikhs at a bhangra night helped when the trouble started.
Some Sehajdhari Sikhs are just as willing to tread that path of the sharp sword without the need to carry the five K's. just have a believe in the right thing to do at the right time forgetting the possibility of personal injury. Who knows it may have been a Sehajdhari who was one of the first to stand up and offer his head. I know that amonst the Sikhs Ive worked with which is always the first. Now enough of knocking each side the question was about the five K's and why . I have asked if someone could point me in the right direction so that I can read this Hukam for my self, but instead of following the Sikhi way of the truth and saying outright I dont know where it is or even that its not written any where, its just been passed down by word of mouth, there are now four pages of posts accusing one side of putting the other down. Please is it written or not, if not and you would like to put a case for or against please feel free to do so. but there is no need to attack or accuse the other side because they disagree as Pk70 ji  said to Virinder ji if you state your opinion others dont have to agree. 
 Respectfully to all 
Tony 
Ps pk70 ji my name is spelt with a Y not an I (male, female thing)


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## tony (Apr 12, 2009)

Dear Tejwant ji 
I sorry but I cant help you with how many of each there are but may be if we had a poll here on SPN it would help. Might not be a true cross section of society but its a start. Something along the lines of the one How many married out of caste. with the option to say why they chose their path and no one can disagree. Might even be a better way of finding out what I want to know. Would start it myself but havent got a clue how.
just a thought 
Respectfully 
Tony


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## pk70 (Apr 12, 2009)

tony said:


> Pk70 ji
> I have read your post and understand your view point, please understand that I'm not against the five K's ,I'm trying to get a proper prospective of them. I was of the uderstanding that Sikh = learner, how does one learn the truth without asking questions. You mentioned your situation in the U.S and how you suffered for your believes, I have suffered just as much during my life not for the same thing but still suffered. From the age of 5 till I was 15 I was bullied every day at school, the names they called me was normally based on the fact that I have dark skin for a white guy, so possible the same sort of names, also at the age of 9 because I had alapechia due to the stress of bullying I grew my hair to hide the bold spots. this only gave the bullies something to grab hold of, still wouldnt cut it. At 15 I struck back at the bullies, all 6 in the space of a week, and for my reprisals I got 3 mths from the courts in a youth detention center. in there they forcefully cut my hair. When i got out I grew it back and kept it till I was 19, and have been shaven in some form or other( many Punk styles ) all a form of none conformaty. Gyani ji says it is the card holders who count, but I would like to ask when was the last time any of us stood up in front of 50+ drunken yobs to protect an innocent, How many have scars on their face and body defending total strangers, how many have had bottles thrown at them for helping an outsider. how many really put their lifes on the line for something they believe in. I no one, one who worked a long side a Amritdhari who when it came to the crunch left his side to fight on his own on more than one occassion. How many of the Amritdhari Sikhs at a bhangra night helped when the trouble started.
> Some Sehajdhari Sikhs are just as willing to tread that path of the sharp sword without the need to carry the five K's. just have a believe in the right thing to do at the right time forgetting the possibility of personal injury. Who knows it may have been a Sehajdhari who was one of the first to stand up and offer his head. I know that amonst the Sikhs Ive worked with which is always the first. Now enough of knocking each side the question was about the five K's and why . I have asked if someone could point me in the right direction so that I can read this Hukam for my self, but instead of following the Sikhi way of the truth and saying outright I dont know where it is or even that its not written any where, its just been passed down by word of mouth, there are now four pages of posts accusing one side of putting the other down. Please is it written or not, if not and you would like to put a case for or against please feel free to do so. but there is no need to attack or accuse the other side because they disagree as Pk70 ji  said to Virinder ji if you state your opinion others dont have to agree.
> Respectfully to all
> ...



*Tony Ji*
*Please forgive me for misspelling  your name.*
*There is  a Bani “ Dakhni Onkaar” by Guru Nanak where he talks about false deeds and right deeds in context of realizing the Creator, Guru Gobind Singh ji purposefully asked the Sikh to follow SGGS Ji but his own gifts have their own importance. A famous actor late Balraj Sahni ji who was a serious student of philosophy expressed his views about Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In essence he called him “All in one”, to defend ourselves and the weaker is coming from him.*
*To defend ourselves and the weaker is what he infused in the Sikhs, If you have witnessed Sikhs including Amritdhari not to come out to help, they have fallen low in Guru’s eyes but Tony ji  it doesn’t mean what Guru ji preached was faulty.( I am not saying that you think that way, just trying to say that some one’s failure has nothing to do with importance of a  Guru given Virtue ) Contrry to your experience, in Amritsar, a few years ago, alone Sikh with Kirpan saved a helpless girl from a gang. He alone represented Guru-preached virtue. So don’t learn anything from them who failed to represent Guru even in Bana or not in bana.*
*I would recommend you that work on your inner self, when you feel to commit to Guru, go for it and never let the world teach you how to live. All is in your hands.*


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## tony (Apr 12, 2009)

Dear Pk70 ji 
The Sikhs who didn't help in no way have changed my opinion of the Khalsa nor do I think what they did says anything about what the Guru ji said it was there choice, I'm pretty sure that for each one who didn't help there are thousands who would if they had been there, I was just trying to show that not all are what they're supposed to be and that its not only Amrit Sikhs that try to follow the right way. Please believe me that I'm not trying to put the Five K's down I'm just trying to get the right perspective of them and trying to dispel what Ive heard from other sources, the best way to find the truth is to ask questions and to put alternative points of view across that way if some one comes along later and asks me why, I can say this is why and if they come up with the same questions I have, then I'll have the answers. The other reason for suggesting the weapons theory is that in Kesgarh their are some relics of the Guru ji, three weapons that start with the letter K, His Kirpaan isn't there or isn't mentioned it may be one that the British stole and have only recently returned but this would make four weapons with the letter K. So not an unreasonable theory. Any way still no one will say if the Hukam is written or not. the truth would stop me asking the same question over and over again. thank you for taking the time to reply it is much appreciated, each post is teaching me something, even if its only to look inside myself for the answer. 
Much Respect 
Tony


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## spnadmin (Apr 12, 2009)

Gyani ji

The story you posted is really informative. It demonstrates why we should honor the asking of questions. Here is someone who asked questions from the age of 14. And he ended up in a place of spirituality where he is completely at one with himself and with his Guru.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 13, 2009)

AAd Ji,
Its GURU NANAK JI Himself who commands us to ASK..ask..and ask yet more questions...and THEN..LISTEN as well. Kichh Kaheah ..Kich SUNNEAH nanak.
Most times we are ever ready to just "ask"..and then DONT listen...
WE ask..and the GURU answers..then we listen. IDEAL situation.
Guur Angad Ji warns...SWAAL JWAAB DOVEHN KAREH..mudhon ghtuthah jayeh..
IF we ASK..and ANSWER...ourselves ( self question/self provide answers)..be the Master and servant at same time...than its a dangerous game we play....that way we will lose all footing and fall.
I am Glad that you are at this stage of your spiritual journey...but remember..many miles to go and many promises to keep...

Have a HAPPY KHALSA DAY..April 14th.:happy:


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## kiram (Apr 13, 2009)

"WE ask..and the GURU answers..then we listen. IDEAL situation." -Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji

Absolutely Ji


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## lalihayer (Apr 13, 2009)

I bet, this 'why?' would have flashed in mind of most of Sangat on Vaisakhi of 1699. Some must have found readymade excuses in mind not to offer head to Satguru (e.g. I have small kids or I have old mother to take care of).
Or duing Amrit ceremony, some smarts in Sangat must be thinking," what is there to show in outside appearance? I am Sikh from inside."
Simple question is "*Are you ready*?"
Kesh are simply most visible symbol for Sikhs ( called Guru Ki Mohar ). If you can keep it uncut, very good. If you can't ( due to your girlfriend's pressure or convenience ), that is OK. Do it when you are ready. But dont' try to compile list of goods and bads of keeping hair (same can be done with almost everything in world).


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 13, 2009)

Let's change it up and say why do you cut your hair?  What are/is the valid reason(s) behind cutting hair?

Here I'll start it off, get a better looking girlfriend:ice:, better date to prom, look cool, get more winks from gurls/guys, whatever you prefer, well that's what I came up with.


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## dalbirk (Apr 13, 2009)

Tony Ji ,
One more & the most compelling ( & selfish ) reason I find myself following the 5Ks is that as a parent , if I'm living my life according to the teachings of the Guru , my sons & daughters would also follow me willingly/unwillingly . Somewhere down the line they may also be exposed to the fragrance of Gurbani & if Guru's Grace is there then also they may understand Gurbani's true meaning , message & Sikh way of life . We may be avoided the exposure to ( some other ) self-defeating ideologies , exploiting & greedy Deras , Baabas, Saadhs , superstitions , Intoxicants , drugs & polygamy . If we try it by ourselves , we may not be successful because we'll be doing it with a hidden motive something this very-very smart generation will find out easily . But if Guru is asking his Sikhs to follow these directions or do anything , then there is no other way out they will have to fall in line . We may be 100% sure that Guru is going to lead them to right path they will never falter in their lives even if we may or may not live to see that day .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 13, 2009)

LAZINESS DHILLARRPUNNA.....no discipline necessary..can easily blend in with the majority....become JOE..the ordinary...


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## tony (Apr 13, 2009)

Dear Dalbirk Ji 
Thank you for posting your personal reasons for keeping the five K's. they arent selfish in my mind and I hope it works, anything that helps another to tread the right path isnt selfish at all and if I thought it would help my children I would gladly grow my hair. Thank you again and goodluck.
Lalihayer ji 
Thank you for your post, I quite agree with you, It is about when your ready and that is why I ask, If I know what they are for and how they help then when i am ready I should know how to use them and what purpose they serve. Dalbirk jis responce is a very good reason and was hoping for more like that, No one can disagree with a personal reason.
Gyani ji 
I dont know if youve noticed but I am listening to the answers that are given, I have tried to respond to every post, If a post has answered with a personal reason then theres no problem, How ever if a post is just another Quote from the SGGS then it answers nothing as we both know it isnt answered in here as the last entries came prior to the Hukam. I have asked the question is it written any where and still no one has answered it, You also have this habit of changing the thread direction and accuse others of hiding in the majority. If a student asks a teacher a question it would be nice if the teacher answered it truthfully without beating about the bush making claims theyre hiding. No one is hiding just asking questions and listening to the answers. Thank you
Dear Singh ji
Why do I cut my hair, well its not for any of the reasons you have mentioned, Already married and not interested in taking another (one is enough for any man No disrespect to the ladies ), To old to be worrying about prom dates, same for looking cool, Not sure how many men wink at me but have had a few offers from gay men and most ladies at my age are beyond winking at men, I have used my hair to make many statements of identity, Long hair as a youngster to not conform to the norm, Many different styles as a Punk ( some quite good ones, very colourful), and now I shave my head, Originally as a thug BNP NF movement, but now just because I have very little to show,  When it grows it irritates me so another reason why. Hope that as answered your question fully, but the thread is about the FIVE K's, Not just hair. so why do you keep them and how do you use them in your daily life
Thank you all for your posts and sorry if Ive not answered any body.
Respectfully 
Tony


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 13, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

IMHO Sikhism is Universal faith. Take your time to understand the principles and do according to your own understanding. May Akal Purkh bless you with Bibayk Budhi (Discerning Intellect) to progress in spirituality.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 13, 2009)

lalihayer said:


> I bet, this 'why?' would have flashed in mind of most of Sangat on Vaisakhi of 1699. Some must have found readymade excuses in mind not to offer head to Satguru (e.g. I have small kids or I have old mother to take care of).


Those are not excuses but valid reasons. 


> Or duing Amrit ceremony, some smarts in Sangat must be thinking," what is there to show in outside appearance? I am Sikh from inside."


The poinjt was not to show from the outside, the point was to take on the tyranny of Mughals. You are simplifying the first amrit ceremony and the situation way to much.



> Simple question is "*Are you ready*?"


See, those who understand "Why?" will be asking this question. Those who don't know why, will be asking "Why?".
Back then people knew Guru Sahib was a great general and they knew he was planning to take on the Mughals. This is the "Why?", so when Guru Sahib asked for a head, it was then "Are you ready?".
But if we say that we keep hair because it went against the mughal conversion code. Then the "why" is answered, but in this case, "are you ready" doesn't follow the "why". Do you get what I am saying? 
There is no "are you ready?" in today's time.
Who cares, the tyranny is over, now we have to tackle new problems and we need new ways of doing so. The same solution will not work for every problem. 



> Kesh are simply most visible symbol for Sikhs ( called Guru Ki Mohar ). If you can keep it uncut, very good. If you can't ( due to your girlfriend's pressure or convenience ), that is OK. Do it when you are ready.
> But dont' try to compile list of goods and bads of keeping hair (same can be done with almost everything in world).


Why not compile a good and bad list? I think we should. I will take this thread and summarize everyone's points into good and bad, and then we'll weigh out the options, see what we get. 
If such a process leads to an undesirable outcome, then what's wrong with that? We are humans, hair are not our only identity, reasoning is as well. So if we go against all reasons to keep hair then we don't understand the meaning behind hair, (like you said) identity. I believe reasoning is more important than hair.



lalihayer said:


> I bet, this 'why?' would have flashed in mind of most of Sangat on Vaisakhi of 1699. Some must have found readymade excuses in mind not to offer head to Satguru (e.g. I have small kids or I have old mother to take care of).


Coming back to this. Those Singhs who got up probably listed the good and bad of the situation.
Were their kids and mothers more important than their freedom?
If you weigh it out, freedom has alot more weight to it just because if you have freedom, you can take care of your kids and mothers properly. Their current state was bad and were hoping to improve it.
So, do you still think we should not list the goods and bads?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 13, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear Dalbirk Ji
> Dear Singh ji
> Why do I cut my hair, well its not for any of the reasons you have mentioned, Already married and not interested in taking another (one is enough for any man No disrespect to the ladies ), To old to be worrying about prom dates, same for looking cool, Not sure how many men wink at me but have had a few offers from gay men and most ladies at my age are beyond winking at men, I have used my hair to make many statements of identity, Long hair as a youngster to not conform to the norm, Many different styles as a Punk ( some quite good ones, very colourful), and now I shave my head, Originally as a thug BNP NF movement, but now just because I have very little to show, When it grows it irritates me so another reason why. Hope that as answered your question fully, but the thread is about the FIVE K's, Not just hair. so why do you keep them and how do you use them in your daily life
> Thank you all for your posts and sorry if Ive not answered any body.
> ...


 
Thanks Tony for sharing your reasons.  Your reasons speak about individuality, ego.  As in Sikhi keeping of the hair is not about this.  We keep hair for identity and accept the hair God has given us.  Keeping of the hair is a way to show we accept your(God) will.  For me and many many other Sikhs the Hukam by Guru Sahib is the only reason needed to let the hair grow.    

Let's see what *valid* reason's people can come up with for cutting hair.


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## spnadmin (Apr 13, 2009)

*Re: Sikh Youth Pull Away from Tradition*

Let's try to think of the 5 K's as* Bana *rather than symbols. 

Sometimes we forget that there was a progression of ideas from one Guru to the next regarding hair. Among the early Gurus Sikhs were encouraged to keep hair as part of the social message of Sikhism regarding the *equality* of humans of all levels of society. Only the rich kept hair and wore turbans through the time of Gurus Nanak, Angad ji and Amar Das ji. Lower castes cut hair and wore a more modest form of turban or head wrap. This kept the difference between rich and poor, aristocrat and laborer, high and low, and powerful and powerless clear and visible. In keeping hair and wearing a turban a message of *social reform* was broadcast. In time hair and dastar became distinctive features of a Sikh male. By the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji hair and dastar carried a strong, *value-added *message of religious* freedom, political reform and social justice*. This message had already become a theme by the time of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev. Finally Guru Gobind Singh made hair and dastar more than symbols, they became *Bana* -- the attire of one who i*nwardly and outwardly *identified with the message of all the Gurus. These were/are the khalsa. They were/are saying* Hear This!
Hair and dastar are not meaningless symbols.* As part of Bana they are *statements for the rest of the world to "get" about freedom and justice.* And that is why restrictions on *Bana* are experienced so deeply by Sikhs as painful and with outrage. My opinion is that sejhadhari should not be marginalized from the panth or made to feel as if they are not complete as Sikhs. At the same time endless quibbling about* Bana *(all 5 k's are Bana) is unhelpful and distracts everyone by getting the focus on symbols and away from the importance of *Bana. *


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## lalihayer (Apr 14, 2009)

aadji,
You are right. Hair is not a meaningless symbol. How it could be? Thousands gave their lives in Delhi because they have symbol of hair to identify them. 
Yet thousands were watching ninth Master sacrificing  His head, yet nobody knew they were Sikhs ( no hair!). And people still need a reason to grow hair as a symbol of being a Sikh of Guru.


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 14, 2009)

lalihayer said:


> aadji,
> You are right. Hair is not a meaningless symbol. How it could be? Thousands gave their lives in Delhi because they have symbol of hair to identify them.
> Yet thousands were watching ninth Master sacrificing His head, yet nobody knew they were Sikhs ( no hair!). And people still need a reason to grow hair as a symbol of being a Sikh of Guru.


It is a shame that we still need a reason to grow hair instead why do we cut. If you want to cut it go ahead, this is your pesonal choice no body stops you. Anyone in any shape is welcome to our Gurdwara and to pray. The problem only comes when you justify use of one line gurbani tuk to suit your agenda in order to hide your guilt and want to take over and deprive the privileges of running gurdwara and other availed by the minorities and wants to destroy the whole institution. Naaleh chor teh naaleh chatar.
Sahni Mohinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 14, 2009)

Bhagt ji,
You wrote..<<<Who cares, the tyranny is over, now we have to tackle new problems and we need new ways of doing so. The same solution will not work for every problem. >>>

are you really sure..Tyranny is OVER ??
1947.....India pakistan Border..
1984...Amrtisar..more than 60 Gurdwaras all over Punjab..streets of Delhi..Kanpur..Pune..etc etc etc..SIKHS ( identified by long hair and dastaar) were burning on the streets with long hair streaming behind them..and tyres around their bodies...

..TYRANNY is OVER ?? really ?? Tyranny is NEVER over..not then..not now..not in the future...human greed, overlorship desires, primal instincts etc etc will never let it be over...

Tyranny exists even in the USA..if a Single SIKH is discriminated agaisnt..shot to death..simply for his kesh/dastaar....its tyrranny!!!
The KHALSA is FOREVER...created to Fight injustice and tyranny.


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## dalbirk (Apr 14, 2009)

Tony Ji ,
This is in addition to my earlier reply .I have practically seen & come to this conclusion , it may be applied as a thumb rule . Whosoever has cared a good deal about Bana (5ks ) , his family life was fine , his/her children consistently grew up to be good humans , good siblings , good spouses , good family persons , sucessful economically whereas who were a bit lax on 5Ks or made fun of 5Ks had their children grew up into Eat , Drink & Make Merry types . They were almost a complete disaster when we compare them on Eastern Values' parameter like family , jobs & high on alcohal , drugs etc . They remind me of these words of the TENTH MASTER " Jab Tak Khalsa Rahe Nyara , Tab Tak Tej Deon Main Saara ; Jab Gahe Eh Bipran Ki Reet , Mein Na Karoon In Ki Parteet " . Ringing 100% true in my ears , after all how could our DASHMESH PITA Ji  declare anything which may not come out to be true ultimately .
Regarding Hair being an inseparable part of our body is that Human hair take birth , after living their due age they die out & they r removed when we comb our hair . Wearing a turban was a similar order of defiance by Guru Gobind Singh Ji like not eating Muslim Halal Meat which is another of the four Bajar Kurehits as per Sikh Rehit Maryada . Apostate is I suppose being PATIT , not being a Sikh anymore . Regarding the radiance of a face with beard , I can only say it ' Beauty lies in the eyes of the Beholder .'


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## tony (Apr 14, 2009)

Dear Singh JI
Thank you for your post but you seem to think that I'm only asking about hair, I'd also like to know why about the rest, Why you keep them and how they help you in every day life please. You say that I cut my hair for individuality ego reasons but the reasons are  no different to yours, Both are about identity yours and mine that is, A sikh uses hair to say an individual is a Sikh, As a punk uses his hair. A skin head uses his or lack of hair, all are a statement of what they are, all are to say that the individual doesn't conform to the norm, to the socially acceptable. So as you are a Sikh and Sikhism is about the truth please state where you have seen this Hukam. Thank you again for taking the time to post
Thank you Antonia ji for your positive input, I can see what your saying with the message of religious freedom, but Using your hair or any other outward sign to send a message to others is a for of egotism, it as you stated says hey look at me I'm a whatever, When i was growing up there where many in England who used their hair to send this message to identify what group they belong to, it is away to separate people. People use an individuals look to put them in groups to classify them, This also works in religion. Take away a persons outward image and no knows what group/ religion they are, No identity, No class, No race, No ego, No more look at me look what I am, Basically No more separation. Why is there a need to state who you are in Sikhism, It only puts up another divide is there any reason to say I'm on a journey to seek the truth. If no one thought or cared about how we look then no one can persicute them for it. Just my thoughts.
Lalihayer ji 
I can understand your thoughts on those who have gave their lives to fight for religious freedom, but fights only start when we identify and challenge others with it, Sikhism is a personal journey towards the truth is their any need to shout about it the look at me syndrome. Let them have the world the earthly riches, I would rather find peace when its all gone all left here for some other fool to gather. If you want to show outward signs of faith do it with actions not identity, its identity/ ego that causes fights. Does it really matter if some one knows who you are. Sorry just my thoughts on how to make the world a better place.
Japjisahib ji 
I no all are welcome, But as yet I not seen any of the Sehajdharis use one liners to justify the cutting of hair, its the other way round, people twisting the SGGS to say we shouldn't cut hair, when there is clearly no mentioning of the need to grow hair, if there was then My hair would already be on its way to shoulder length (well whats left anyway).There is no mention of the other four K's either, that's why I' asking why and how do others use them to help in every day live, but every one seems to think this thread is just about hair, Its not its about the FIVE K's and to help others get a better understanding, I'm looking for positive reason from both sides please. Thank you for your comments. 

Gyani ji looks as if your getting heated up. You seem to be only answering those that ask nothing of you. I have asked you many questions, but as yet you have only misquoted gurbani and never answered any of my questions, You mentioned Kesgarh, so here's A question for you. there are many artifacts there belonging to Guru ji, all the ones that are mentioned are weapons that belonged to him, If the five K's are that important and the weapons aren't, then where is his. where is is kara, kecheera, his kanga, surely if they where his Hukam they would have the pride of place, They may be there but on all the Sikh websites there is no mention of them, Why ?.
If no body had an identity then no one would die for it, Identity creates ego, creates division.
Dalbirk ji
just seen your last post, and unfortunately must disagree, My partners father was strict Sikh, five Ks as is my friends father and a few other Sikhs that I know, none of their children follow Sikhism, none go to the gurdwara, My partner isn't that interested in our children following Sikhism, so unfortunately it doesn't work in all cases, and the opposite side of the coin is that I wasn't brought up in a Sikh house hold yet I'm doing my best to follow and also to get my children interested not only in Sikhism but the language of panjabi as well, I will say though that while you idea may work outside the Uk, Here there are far to many distractions for the young and the strict panjabi/ Sikh culture puts them off.They seem to prefer the designer wear and flash cars to the Five K's. I must also disagree with you on those who live together out side of marriage. Just because some one doesn't think that a big showy wedding is for them or that they need a piece of paper to say I love you or I will be with you for ever,does make them a sinner nor does it make them anti Sikh, I no many people who have been together for long than myself and my partner, they live good honest family life's and bring their children up to do what is right, a piece of paper and flashy wedding say nothing, many have big showy weddings spending many thousands of pounds with much food going to waste just to say look at me, Anti Sikh behaviour if ever I saw it. many men still cheat on there wife's even after this, I could name at least ten Sikhs three of which are amritdhari Sikhs who have cheated on their wife's. So wedding and all its big flashy statements are meaning less and originally they where only for saying I possess you now you belong to me. Sorry for disagreeing these are just my views based on what I see in the UK and of the people I've met.
Once again thank you to all for your comments, but please try to remember this thread is not just about the hair, Its more about how you use the five K's to help you in every day life and if you Know where I can find the Hukam I would be most grateful. 
Tony


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## dalbirk (Apr 14, 2009)

Daer Tony Ji ,
I have sahred with u my experiences , my observation of countless families here in India , not very fimiliar with the situation in UK or diaspora . One thing I like to add is that though the earlier generation was adherent to 5Ks but maybe they were not quite fimiliar with the real message of Gurbani or SGGS , practical benifits of which which their children could not see in daily life . Also some exceptions r always there , whole Amritdarees cannot be painted with the same brush due to actions of a few . Guru is not asking them to do so , there is no contradiction in Gurbani's message nor in 5Ks . Just like a doctor taking oath on gratuation to serve humanity but takes the way of fleecing the public but due to action of a few doctors whole medical profession cannot be scrapped , banned or hated .Or a woman taking marriage vows but goes on having affair with all & sundry , the action of that woman cannot be the baisis of condemning the institution of marriage . 
Regarding the lavish marriages , if u see Sikh Rehat Maryada , these type of LAVISH PUNJABI MARRIAGES r banned in SRM & r considered anti-Gurmat .
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India
It is due to the ill-effects of culture or Hindu norms which encourage such marriages . Dowry is prohibted , minimum Baaratis r allowed , Liquor , Mujras ( Orchestra , DJs ) r prohibted , Anand Karaj is to be held in a Gurudwara . Recently DSGPC has made it mandatory for whole marriage ceremony , Baarat's reception to be held in Gurudwaras only with minimum expenses even for super-rich Delhi Sikhs . I'm living in Ludhiana , in Sarabha Nagar Gurudwara at least one marriage takes place every Sunday ( average marriages r four )in which about 50-70 Baaratis come directly to Gurudwara have breakfast , after that Anand Karaj happens , Guests have lunch & doli goes directly from the Gurudwara to groom's house . The entire expenses comes to about 50-60,000/ ( 1000 -1200 USD ) . Both the sides r usually very well-off . This is in Sarabha Nagar perhaps the most posh residential area in whole of Punjab where land price is around 70,000-80,000/ per sq. yard . In Model Town Extn . also another posh area where I live at least 2-3 such marriages take place in a month . So many positive changes r happening in the society , due to more communication ,more awareness people r realising Sikh traditions & ways ( different from Punjabi cultural traditions ) .
                 Regarding children's interest in flashy cars etc , it is the tendency of human mortals to get attracted to Maya but once Gur-Parsad ( Guru's grace ) is there a human strives to have higher stage , the Naam of God is all he thinks about , Gurbani directs him/her all the way to success ( God ) , all- round well-being in life .


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 14, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

I read your response to others as the true perception of Sikhi. One is known by his/her actions and association. A book cover does not tell what is in the book. 

It reminds me the story of Kabir when he was being treated by Brahmins as a low, menial class weaver as to how he can come up to the status of Brahmin. Kabir replied to the Brahmin in Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 324;

ਗਰਭ ਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ ॥ਕਹੁ ਰੇ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਬਾਮਨ ਕਬ ਕੇ ਹੋਏ ॥ਬਾਮਨ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਤ ਖੋਏ ॥ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ ॥ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥ 

_Garabẖ vās meh kul nahī jāṯī. Barahm binḏ ṯė sabẖ uṯpāṯī. Kaho rė pandiṯ bāman kab kė ho¬ė. Bāman kahi kahi janam maṯ kẖo¬ė. Jou ṯūŉ barāhmaṇ barahmaṇī jā¬i¬ā. Ŧa¬o ān bāt kāhė nahī ā¬i¬ā. Ŧum kaṯ barāhmaṇ ham kaṯ sūḏ. Ham kaṯ lohū ṯum kaṯ ḏūḏẖ. Kaho Kabīr jo barahm bīcẖārai. So barāhmaṇ kahī¬aṯ hai hamārai._

In the dwelling of the womb, there is no ancestry or social status. All have been created from the Seed of God. O, Pundit and religious scholar, tell me since when have you been a Brahmin? Don't waste your life by continually claiming to be a Brahmin. If you are indeed a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin mother, then why didn't you come by other special way than the common way? How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status? Is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? Says Kabir, one who contemplates God, is said to be a Brahmin among us. 

Cordially,

Virinder

The full shabad:

ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥ 
gourree kabeer jee ||
Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

 ਗਰਭ ਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ 
garabh vaas mehi kul nehee jaathee ||
In the dwelling of the womb, there is no ancestry or social status.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ ॥੧॥ 
breham bindh thae sabh outhapaathee ||1||
All have originated from the Seed of God. ||1||

ਕਹੁ ਰੇ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਬਾਮਨ ਕਬ ਕੇ ਹੋਏ ॥ 
kahu rae panddith baaman kab kae hoeae ||
Tell me, O Pandit, O religious scholar: since when have you been a Brahmin?

ਬਾਮਨ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਤ ਖੋਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
baaman kehi kehi janam math khoeae ||1|| rehaao ||
Don't waste your life by continually claiming to be a Brahmin. ||1||Pause||

ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ 
ja thoon braahaman brehamanee jaaeiaa ||
If you are indeed a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin mother,

 ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
tho aan baatt kaahae nehee aaeiaa ||2||
then why didn't you come by some other way? ||2||

 ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥ 
thum kath braahaman ham kath soodh ||
How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status?

ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥੩॥ 
ham kath lohoo thum kath dhoodhh ||3||
How is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? ||3||
 
 ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ 
kahu kabeer jo breham beechaarai ||
Says Kabeer, one who contemplates God,

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੭॥ 
so braahaman keheeath hai hamaarai ||4||7||
is said to be a Brahmin among us. ||4||7||

edited by aad0002


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Tony Ji,
> 
> I read your response to others as the true perception of Sikhi. One is known by his/her actions and association. A book cover does not tell what is in the book.
> 
> ...




Virinder ji

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you. However, the shabad has nothing to do with the 5 K's. The shabad pertains to a more spiritual path to God.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 14, 2009)

Dear Aad Ji,

It might not have any thing to do with 5 K's but it is the attitude of the Sikhs with BaNa towards Non BaNa Sikhs. Negative and positive attitude has lot to do with life and other fellow humans.

Thanks.

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2009)

Virinder ji

So how does this shabad illustrate the attitude of Bana versus non-Bana Sikhs? I don't see it. This shabad is for everyone to think about and apply. 

False piety is found in every religion. It just so happens that at the time the Shabad was written the main problem was the corruption of Brahmins and their disregard of the suffering of others. 

Bana Sikhs come in all stripes in terms of their level of spiritual development. So do non-Bana Sikhs. Is it OK to use Gurbani to generalize against any group?  When the tables are turned and Gurbani is used against non-Bana Sikhs, there are many voices here who protest when they do it. So why apply the shabad against Bana Sikhs in general?

It is always wrong to condemn another person in the name of God no matter who does it or who is being condemned. Don't you agree?


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## mystique_void (Apr 14, 2009)

"It might not have any thing to do with 5 K's but it is the attitude of 
the Sikhs with BaNa towards Non BaNa Sikhs. Negative and 
positive attitude has lot to do with life and other fellow humans."

In the province of British Columbia, more than hundred thousand 
people gathered for Nagar Kirtans to celebrate Vaisakhi.  There 
were countless scenes of Bana and Non Bana individuals 
(including Caucasians, Muslims, Hindus) hugging each other, 
serving each other and eating together.  They even came on 
the same cars because they are part of the same family.  

When facts are in contradiction with ideology, malice, cunning. 
dirty politics, destructive mindset, negative attitude - sensible 
and intelligent people let the facts triumph.


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 14, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Virinder ji
> 
> So how does this shabad illustrate the attitude of Bana versus non-Bana Sikhs? I don't see it. This shabad is for everyone to think about and apply.
> 
> ...


Antonji
You take any of his article you will find malice toward bana sikh. I wonder if this should be permitted on sikh form.
regards\Sahni Mohinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2009)

japjisahib04 said:


> Antonji
> You take any of his article you will find malice toward bana sikh. I wonder if this should be permitted on sikh form.
> regards\Sahni Mohinder



Sahni Mohinderji

We can be working on the problem of malice, and working on it in a way that moves beyond arguments of the past.  At least I hope so. 

The best thing we can do is refresh our vichaar with the entire shabad, provide a complete understanding, and frame our disagreement accordingly. That way we are discussing an issue per Gurmat and not dealing in personalities. If we don't move in that direction -- well, all we get is a firestorm of accusations. Guru's kirpa -- and this firestorm will be reversed soon. Thanks for your kindness. You have been exceptionally generous with your insights.

Forum rules do forbid *undermining of Sikhism,* but that is not the same thing as disagreement about the requirement of Bana. What is not permitted is any suggestion that one side or the other has failed as a Sikh. If we stick to the Shabad we won't have time or energy to sock it to our adversaries. Please be patient with our moderation team. 

Antonia


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 14, 2009)

Dear Aad Ji,

Tony's response and mystique voids response illustrate what I meant.

Regards.

Virinder


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## mystique_void (Apr 14, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Aad Ji,
> 
> Tony's response and mystique voids response illustrate what I meant.
> 
> ...



Sir, 

What are you talking about?  You have not addressed what Aad ji 
mentioned.  Looks like your response was created not by 
a person but by a random word-generator.

Regards,


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 14, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Sahni Mohinderji
> 
> We can be working on the problem of malice, and working on it in a way that moves beyond arguments of the past.  At least I hope so.
> 
> ...


 
Aad ji, everytime a member ask for Virinders side he backs away, but continues to write his abstracts against the 5 k's.  He's not willing to discuss this openly.  He says its his opinion and trys to end the discussion this way.  I have told him before and I'll tell him again there is not a shabad or tuk that speaks out against 5 k's and yet he still trys to manipulate a tuk and produces as it does.

Virinder ji, this is the third time I am asking you, present the shabds that rejects form (5k's).  If you're not willing to do so then and I mean this in the most respectful way.  Your opinion is nothing and it stands for nothing.  You have nothing, but your willing to continue on with this rant of yours.

We are trying to understand where you are coming from, but you don't even provide anything for us, to let this happen.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 14, 2009)

Tony Ji,
you asked why Guru Gobind Singh Jis Kachaera, etc are NOT DISPLAYED along with his many weapons etc at Keshgarh and Hazoor Sahib.
Answer: The 5 Kakaars are a very PERSONAL GIFT. Theya re usually cremated together with the owner.
The weapons that Guur Ji used were many in number...and most are displayed.

2. The KANGHA of Guur Gobind Singh Ji complete with some strands of His Kesh is preserved by the Descendants of Pir BUDHU SHAH a Muslim Saint.
This was the Pir of SADHAURA who was an ardent follower of Guur Gobind Singh Ji.  At one instance about 1000 Mughal soldiers came to him for help as they had been sacked by the local mughal Governor as redundant. The Pir being a kind man broght them along to Guur Ji and requested Guru Ji to employ them in hsi army. Guur Ji complied. This was just before the Battle of Bhanganni ( and its very possible that these soldiers were  sent in as traitors  but thats assumption.) Anyway at the height of Battle..these EX- mughals oldiers deserted enmasse. When the news reached the Pir...he assembled his four sons and about 700 of his murids and rushed to the Guru Jis aid...The Pir lost his FOUR SONS in the Battle fo Bhnaganni as well as a few hundred of hsi murids fighting on the Gurus side.
After the Battle wehn the Pir went to Guur Ji's tent to meet him, Guur Ji was combing his hair. Guur Ji asked the Pir....Friend..you have done me a great favour.. The Pir repleid..No My Friend...I had to do thsi as I was ashamed of the traitors i brought in. No said Guru Ji..you have still done a great favour..ask of me anything your heart desires...and after a few moments of thought..Pir Budhau Shah replied..I desire nothing..but if you are in the mood of giving..then PLEASE GIFT ME YOUR KANGHA that you are holding in your hand...and dont remove the Blessed KESH. Guru Ji GIFTED him the KANGHA and the KESH stuck in it.
In 1965 I had the good fortune to have Darshan of this kangha that was brought to Malaysia by the Queen of Patiala Royal House.

From where and how did you get the misconceptiuon..that I am "getting heated up" ?? You must be confusing ME with someone else....because I read and re-read all my missives five times to avoid any "heat" even though I know I am never hot...never angry....just ask any of my students as SOME have already tried in the past..no such thing.

I have QUOTED the Single Line  KESO KESO KOOKEAH...by Kabir Ji...as this Tuk genuinely stands alone...as the meaning is crystal clear... KESO is the LORD with Long Flowing KESH..and KOOKEAH means SHOUT out at the top of ones voice so thats heard all over. I am naturally curious that NONE of the GURUS, BHAGATS have DESCRIBED their BELOVED as "BALDY....shining Domed...chilkdah khoparr...Lord with the receeding forehead...Lord with the Horsetaill..punky hair..etc.etc. NOT ONE such "description"....i mean at least one should have mentioned...the LORD as such..( Never mins what message/etc behind the tuk/description...Lots of Brahmins at that time went BALD or had punky hair styles !! In fact many JOKES exist about these Brahmins and their POOCH on TOP !! No offense meant towards baldies punkys etc.

Hace a happy Khalsa day...even if its belated !!:happy::happy::happy:


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2009)

Gyani ji

This is a tangential question. So you can answer in a private message not to distract the others. But how are you using the term "tuk" and what do you mean when you say it "stands alone." Just asking you to clear up some fogginess on my part. Thanks.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 14, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Aad Ji,
> 
> It might not have any thing to do with 5 K's but it is the attitude of the Sikhs with BaNa towards Non BaNa Sikhs. Negative and positive attitude has lot to do with life and other fellow humans.
> 
> ...



The Brahmin..was Brahmin from BIRTH. Just as  a Shudar was shudar from Birth and NOTHING can change that status. The Born Brahmin..remaisn a "Brahmin" No matter what his true actions....this is defended in Mannus Laws.

Similarly  a  Shudar could NEVER be "good"..no matter what !! and just to make sure...it was LAW that No Shudar could even hear the vedas..and if one was found doing that..he/she shoudl be amde an example of by POURING MOLTEN LEAD IN HIS EARS..r MOUTH if he was caught repeating the Vedas...and his eyes plucked out if he was caught reading the scriptures.

THIS is the Scenario that Kabir ji's above shabd is written in. The Sporotual message comes later.

Contarst with the BaNNa that this is stretched to comparison.
The Banna is Voluntary....and Gifted to ANYONE. Birth is of no consequence.
A Banna doesnt make the wearer IMMUNE BY LAW.
NON Banna doesnt make the person GUILTY BY LAW.
The Banna accords EQUALITY...brotherhood..etc etc.
Spiritual development comes later and is NOT dependant either on Banna or NO Banna.

2. Just like the BORN BRAHMINS condemned by Kabir Ji..its the "BORN SIKH" especially JATT Families..that demand "our rights by LAW"....claim "inner spirituality" by LAW/sheer non-compliance. In reality the "born Sikh" is a MYTH just like the Born Brahmin..born shudar etc of Mannu Laes. No one can be a Born Sikh..has to be BY CHOICE.


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## pk70 (Apr 14, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The Brahmin..was Brahmin from BIRTH. Just as  a Shudar was shudar from Birth and NOTHING can change that status. The Born Brahmin..remaisn a "Brahmin" No matter what his true actions....this is defended in Mannus Laws.
> 
> Similarly  a  Shudar could NEVER be "good"..no matter what !! and just to make sure...it was LAW that No Shudar could even hear the vedas..and if one was found doing that..he/she shoudl be amde an example of by POURING MOLTEN LEAD IN HIS EARS..r MOUTH if he was caught repeating the Vedas...and his eyes plucked out if he was caught reading the scriptures.
> 
> ...




*Respected Gyani Jio*
*Thanks for nice views*

*Let me share an example that proves that Guru Nanak wore  bana( dress)  obviously he  doesn’t criticize bana but hypocrisy of people hidden behind bana  ( Those Guru Vaakas that criticize hypocrisy  are  often ignorantly used against Sikh-bana by some  Sikhs who are against  it). I would support it with an example*
*Read Sidh gosht very seriously not for a count, you will find crystal clear Guru Nanak's admission that  once with a reason  he wore a Hermit- bana ;  When first time Guru ji met yogi, he was wearing that Bana but when they met him in Batala( Punjab), Guru ji was in a family- man- dress. So Yogi asks Guru Nanak by reminding him of his hermit- bana, here it is*
*SGGS 939*
*“ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਗ੍ਰਿਹੁਤਜਿਓਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਇਹੁਭੇਖੁਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī.[/FONT]Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]
* *In Essence: For what reason did you forsake home to become hermit? For what reason did you adopt that dress[/FONT]?[/FONT]

Guru Ji answers those questions[/FONT]
ਗਰਮੁਖਿਖੋਜਤਭਏਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]ਦਰਸਨਕੈਤਾਈਭੇਖਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]
Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī.[/FONT]Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]* 
* In Essence: In search of Gurmukhas I became hermit, to see them (meet personally) I adopted that dress (of Hermit)”[/FONT]*
* No wonder Tenth Master has given Bana to the Sikhs for a reason because there is nothing wrong with Bana who cannot wear it, its fine but  they should refrain from criticizing  it or those who can  wear it (and do) by saying it doesn’t bring spirituality and to support their ignorance, they shouldn’t distort Gurbani.[/FONT]*
*Thanks.[/FONT]*
*Regards[/FONT]*
*G Singh[/FONT]*


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2009)

Here is the complete shabad. Ang 939

 ਕਿਸੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਤਜਿਓ ਉਦਾਸੀ ॥ 
kis kaaran grihu thajiou oudhaasee ||
"Why have you left your house and become a wandering Udaasee?

 ਕਿਸੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਇਹੁ ਭੇਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
kis kaaran eihu bhaekh nivaasee ||
Why have you adopted these religious robes?

 ਕਿਸੁ ਵਖਰ ਕੇ ਤੁਮ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥ 
kis vakhar kae thum vanajaarae ||
What merchandise do you trade?

 ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਥੁ ਲੰਘਾਵਹੁ ਪਾਰੇ ॥੧੭॥ 
kio kar saathh langhaavahu paarae ||17||
How will you carry others across with you?""||17||

 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਤ ਭਏ ਉਦਾਸੀ ॥ 
guramukh khojath bheae oudhaasee ||
I became a wandering Udaasee, searching for the Gurmukhs.

 ਦਰਸਨ ਕੈ ਤਾਈ ਭੇਖ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
dharasan kai thaaee bhaekh nivaasee ||
I have adopted these robes seeking the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan.

 ਸਾਚ ਵਖਰ ਕੇ ਹਮ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥ 
saach vakhar kae ham vanajaarae ||
I trade in the merchandise of Truth.

 ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰੇ ॥੧੮॥ 
naanak guramukh outharas paarae ||18||
O Nanak, as Gurmukh, I carry others across. ||18||


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## pk70 (Apr 14, 2009)

*Aad Jio*
* I wonder how translator says that “to see Lord’s vision he adopted that dress.” Guru Nanak doesn’t support that theory ( to see him any one needs any dress, did other Gurus wear Udaasi dress to see HIM?), in the first Vaak,  Guru ji mentions why he became  udasee( in search of Gurmukhas) , now suddenly the translator is relating “dress” to see His vision?  Actually the second Vaak  is also about Gurmukhas not about “Lord’s vision” as translator says. First idea goes through the next, “vision of Lord” is an assumption*
*Sorry to interrupt, I couldn’t accept the translation. Thanks for posting whole Shabada.*


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## lalihayer (Apr 15, 2009)

As per Bhai Sahib Singh teeka,
ਅਸਾਂ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨਾਂ ਲਈ (ਉਦਾਸੀ-) ਭੇਖ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਸੀ।
meaning I have adopted these robes to meet Gurmukhs.


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## spnadmin (Apr 15, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *Aad Jio*
> * I wonder how translator says that “to see Lord’s vision he adopted that dress.” Guru Nanak doesn’t support that theory ( to see him any one needs any dress, did other Gurus wear Udaasi dress to see HIM?), in the first Vaak,  Guru ji mentions why he became  udasee( in search of Gurmukhas) , now suddenly the translator is relating “dress” to see His vision?  Actually the second Vaak  is also about Gurmukhas not about “Lord’s vision” as translator says. First idea goes through the next, “vision of Lord” is an assumption*
> *Sorry to interrupt, I couldn’t accept the translation. Thanks for posting whole Shabada.*




pk70 ji

We have to post the entire shabad so there it is. You are welcome. It would be a good idea to go back to the exact lines where the problems are cropping up. What different translation would you give for the places where the translator got it wrong. I am not trying to play the school teacher and give a homework assignment. Here is why I am asking.

The translation actually seems to contradict the point of the Shabad as a whole. So the translation must be flawed. Why not go in there and do some surgery on it. Pull out the broken pieces of wrong thinking.

Thanks


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## pk70 (Apr 15, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> We have to post the entire shabad so there it is. You are welcome. It would be a good idea to go back to the exact lines where the problems are cropping up. What different translation would you give for the places where the translator got it wrong. I am not trying to play the school teacher and give a homework assignment. Here is why I am asking.
> 
> ...



*Many thanks *

*Regards*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 15, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> This is a tangential question. So you can answer in a private message not to distract the others. But how are you using the term "tuk" and what do you mean when you say it "stands alone." Just asking you to clear up some fogginess on my part. Thanks.



AAd Ji,
what I mean is that its  simple "instruction"..no other meaning...

kbIr kyso kyso kUkIAY n soeIAY Aswr  ]
kab*ee*r k*ae*s*o* k*ae*s*o* k*oo*k*ee**ai* n s*o**ee**ai* as*aa*r ||
_Kabeer, chant the Name of the  Beautifully-haired Lord; do not sleep unaware._
The second line Completes the idea...
rwiq idvs ky kUkny  kbhU ky sunY pukwr ]223]
 r*aa*th dh*i*vas k*ae* k*oo*kan*ae* kabeh*oo* k*ae*  s*u*n*ai* p*u*k*aa*r  ||223||
 _Chanting His Name night and day, the  Lord will eventually hear your call. ||223||_
 
   My point is the "Name" given to the Creator by Kabir Ji is DESCRIPTIVE....KESO means that with Long Flowing Beautiful Hair..nothing more nothing less.

ANd ALL OTHER Guurs/bhagats always mention their Creator/Beloved/Lord...as the One with Long..FLOWING..BEAUTIFUL HAIR.
So this is not a case of the "TUK" being isolated and taken out of CONTEXT because the following tuks/shabd prove otherwise. Here there is NO such out of context/twist/misinterperting.....just plain simple and clear INSTRUCTION from kabeer JI.
This is why NO ONE quotes this TUK...it doesnt serve their purpose of NEGATING HAIR .

Thanks...


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## tony (Apr 15, 2009)

Dear Dalbirk ji
Thank you very much for your response, I accept that their is a big difference between the Sikhs that I used as examples here in the UK and the Sikhs that you use in India, It shows though that there is good and bad like you have said in all types. The point I was making was that here in the Uk possible the same in India is that the Five K's doesnt work for every one, and agree whole heartedly with you that the majority shouldnt be judged (if thats the right word to use) by the minority. May I thank you also for the insight in to how marriages are conducted in your country and say that this may also be the case here in the UK, It was the ones that I have witnessed in the course of my work and these may also be a minority, Very sorry if I gave the impression that it was the majority and was painting a bad picture of Sikhs as a whole in the UK, I Can assure you that the majority of Sikhs conduct themselfs in a proper and fitting manner, Although I would like to point out that the interest in flashy car, designer labels isnt only restricted to the young or the Sehajdharis its also the older Sikhs who have the big S class Mercs and most of the Amritdharis also, Many of the Amritdharis abandoning the traditional dress for designer suits, Both sides have the same problems. Thank you again for taking the time to state your opinions in a non argumentative manner, many can learn from this approach.
Dear Virinder ji
Thank you for your response and may I say I agree with you that one should not judge a book by its cover. I understand the message you where saying in quoting the story, its a statement that of equality and in no way does it attempt to put down either side just states all are equal in the eyes of god which I think is relavant to this discussion, I am not attempting to lower the significance of the Five K's for those who choose to wear them, and also feel that it is those who choose not to wear them for whatever reasons that are being judged. 
The next few posts are the very arguments that I didnt want to attract, please if you have a point of veiw put it over, if you disagree with anothers please try to say it without personal attacks, Lets try to keep it clean, I would like to say that in my opinion there is no need to use any part of the SGGS in this discussion as there is no mention of the five K's in any way, either for or against, If you think other wise and feel the need to quote, then please give your personal interpritation as to how it refers to the five K's. Thank you
 Dear Gyani ji 
Thank you and sorry if I have got it  wrong in saying you are getting heated, It was the use of bold capital lettering that suggested this to me and the emphasising of certain words my appologies. I have read the story you told about his Kangha and would like to ask if you are sure that the Kesh is blessed,  who blessed it. You also say that the five K's are a very personal gift and that they are cremated with the person, This is in contrast to what I understood about wordly items, nothing goes with you after death and seems to be an attachment to Maya. Also the fire would have to be extremely hot to melt cast iron so surely it wouldnt have been distroyed, Also I have studied many of the early portrait/ paintings of the Guru ji and notice that the Kara is only shown on those Dated after the 1800's, around the time the first copies of the Dasam granth where seen, You have also quoted the line Keso Keso Kookeah and say it describes the lord with long flowing hair, How do you know that God has long flowing kesh, It states in the SGGS  that the lord is undescribable and that those who try to describe him will burn, so I think this might be one of those times that the line is mistranslated, also I read in another thread that the true translation doesnt refer to hair at all, It just relates to God being wonderful and beautiful and if this is the case could the name Kesgarh have been slightly changed from Kesogarh, and as for he's never been described as punky or boldy or he with the receeding for head how do you know he isnt and what will you say when your time comes to meet him and you stand before him, he with the bold head, punky mohawk , receeding forehead,, God is indescribable so please please refrain from trying, no one knows what he looks like, although he can be seen in every thing including bold, punky, receeding men. Sorry just an opinion.

btw the word Bana translates to dress and doesnt mean or have anything to do with the five K's in the SGGS, so again please stop quoting/ misquoting. It is misleading to new comers and also takes up a lot of time when I have to keep checking translation and I also believe that it is a forum rule that all panjabi have the correct English translation, many are just using panjabi words with no English translation to accompany them. Thank you.
Sorry Gyani ji I just read your last post and I'm wondering if you could explain which of the words in the two lines you have quoted actually mean Hair and which ones mean God. as this again goes against the do not describe God, GOD is undescribable please please stop trying its wrong to attempt to and its wrong to use Gurbani to support your argument, It doesnt attempt to describe God any where in the in the SGGS as a human form so how can he have long flowing hair. I would rather hear your personal reasons for having the five K's and how you use them, 
Still No one will tell me is the Hukam written or not, or are we relying on 300 yrs of hearsay, 
So far only a few have answered with their personal reasons for wearing them and these are much appreciated and are the ones I'm looking for, No need for quotes of Gurbani as these quotes dont help, they only open the thread up for arguments, not what I'm after
Many Thanks to all for the answers so far
Tony


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## Amarpal (Apr 15, 2009)

Tony Ji,

I explain to you why we Sikhs beep Kesh and Beard. The reason and rational of doing it has many two layers – First needed for spirituality and second needed for survival - collectively they form the basis for having Kesh 

(i) Needed for spirituality: As I have said in many of my earlier posts, humans are not worldly beings trying to be spiritual, but are spiritual beings lost under the dust of worldly pleasures. When the person is spiritual, she or he lives in harmony with nature. Kesh and Beard is a natural growth. All spiritual and divine humans, we know of, had Kesh and the men among them had Beard too. 

The question comes why to ask people to keep Kesh and Beard when they have not yet spiritually evolved. The question is right, it must be answered. 

In my earlier posts I have stated that imitation is the first stage of assimilation. It is by this way we learnt to speak our mother’s language and learnt to walk. This tells me that even if try to imitate living in harmony with nature, over a period of time it will become natural to us, a respect for nature will dawn and that will enhance spirituality in us.

Guru Sahib knew all this and hence he asked us to keep Kesh and Beard. 

(ii) Need for survival:  The new philosophy enunciated by Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and implemented by his nine successors was affecting those who were already established in the old system. The new Philosophy was under threat; all its followers were being subject to duress, hurdles being put in the functioning of their institutions. Physical repression of its followers was not yet started. Hence Guru Sahibans resisted it through peaceful means.

This repression over a period of time became physical, Sikhs were not secure. To kill the upcoming Sikhi the Sikhs were being killed. At this stage Guru Gobind Singh devised ways to provide the needed protection. He felt the need to tie all the Sikhs in one bond as number gives strength. He designed the Khalsa Panth with Sikhi as its Philosophy. 

This was necessary. Guru Sahib knew that the relations between individuals get governed by etiquettes and ethics and the relations between groups are regulated through politics – individual cannot stand to the pressure of a group; that was the conditions of the Sikhs. By that time Sikhs were a virtual group by themselves but need physical realization. Design of Khalsa Panth was the solution given by Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji to face the challenges posed by the social order. 

This Panth and its philosophy (Sikhi) needed to be protected against brutal repression – ‘History of Sikhs’ will tell you all that our earlier generations faced and news will tell you how we are enduring it even today; a feeling of security had to be given to the followers. 

How do you do that? When the entity is fixed and not mobile then one puts a fence around it to ward off the intruders (here the ideas from other philosophies). When the entity is mobile you design a uniform for them to be identified as done for armies and teams. Siri Guru Gobind Singh gave his Sikhs a uniform. It was necessary to compensate for the lack of numbers of Sikhs as compared to other prevailing social orders. Guru Sahib knew that if the uniform for Sikh is very conspicuous it has the potential to give a feeling of strength in numbers and thus some what compensate for the lack of numbers. This conspicuous identity will also help Sikhs to identify each other and thus collect to function as a group when under duress.

Kesh, which were kept by all our Guru Sahibans, now became part of all the Sikhs. Thus the Kesh became identity of ‘The Sikhs’

I have Kesh and I advise all the Sikh to do so.

I also want Sikh institutions (please do not depend on SGPC) to fund research and development of ‘Hair Fixer’ which will help the Beard to set in say ten minutes and will not dissolve unless warm water is not used for this purpose. This is to ensure that the Beard remains set and is not affected by perspiration or rain. I know most of the Sikhs who trim their beard initially do not cut their hair. Those who trim do so to reduce time to get ready. It is same reason for which working women in the western world cut their short.

With this I close the post.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 15, 2009)

Guru Piayare Amarpal Singh Ji,

THANK you for an absolutely brilliant post ( as usual --!in the context of the Sukhmani posts series!!).
May Guru Ji keep you in the best of Health Ji. 
I have been using the Sukhmani sahib series as the jumping board for past few months...and your love for Gurbani/Gurmatt seeps through in torrents.

Chardeekalla
:happy::welcome:


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## Amarpal (Apr 15, 2009)

Nice of you Gyani Ji,

My 'The Sat' bless you

With love and respect

Amarpal Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 15, 2009)

Amarpal said:


> Nice of you Gyani Ji,
> 
> My 'The Sat' bless you
> 
> ...


 S. Amar Pal Singh

If I am not mistaken you were not dressing yourself with Turban and beard. May God bless you for this beautiful presentation.
Best regards
Sahni  Mohinder


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## Amarpal (Apr 15, 2009)

Dear Mohinder Sahni Ji,

You are mistaken.

I was alway dressed in turban with Kesh and beard ever since it was given to me by nature and age. This is going to be with me till 'The Sat' calls me.

I am the same Amarpal Singh with whom you had interacted when I was sharing my understanding on Japji Sahib.

With love and respect

Amarpal Singh


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## tony (Apr 15, 2009)

Dear Armapal j
Thank you very much for your post, I agree with you entirely on the reason Guru ji Formed the Kalsa panth and also in the fact that a uniform was needed for them, Hence the need for Kesh, How ever if I may ask, Did Guru ji expect every Sikh irrespective of their individual abilities to Fight wear a uniform, One must take into account not only physical ability but also their mental ability, not all have the ability to defend themselfs even when armed. If a person puts on a uniform he then automatically becomes a target, no ability to fight = needless loss of life and thats contrary to Gurus teaching. So do you believe thats what Guru ji wanted, Sikhs to die needlessly, some people serve an army in other ways better and in those cases there is no need for a uniform. I personally cant imagine Guru ji saying that those who cant fight arent worthy to be Sikhs especially after his father Died for those who couldnt/ wouldnt fight. So to say that those who refuse to wear the Kalsa uniform arent real/ Proper Sikhs is unfair. In my own opinion Khalsa = Sikh army, Sikhism = journey towards enlightenment/ spirituality, or Khalsa/ army = the need for a uniform, Sikhism/ spiritual journey = no requirement for outward identity, Both can reach the same end but they tread slightly different paths to reach it. A simple way to look at it would be to say those that dont wear the uniform of the Indian army arent accepted as Real/ proper/ full Indians. the first part of your post says that Humans are spiritual beings lost under a dust of wordly pleasures, Agreed. and that spiritual beings live in harmony with nature, Agreed. the problem is that in england the majority do not work towards living in harmony with nature quite the opposite, The vast majority work hard get money buy big car big house and help to destroy the world with excessive carbon emissions, No person Sikh or other wise can justify the use of a big car when one only one person is in it, no person can justify heating and lighting a house for four when only two live in it, I could go on with many more examples but I think that we get the picture.  May be instead of urgeing the development of beard fixers which arent in any way natural, may be the Sikhi institutions should be explaining and teaching Sikhs of the damage they are contributing towards the destruction of this planet with this open show of wealth. 
Btw before anyone shouts jealousy I have a 3 bedroom house which is sufficient for my family and also have 3 cars, 1 large for the whole family and 2 small low emission cars for single person use ie travelling two and from work. if the need arises to travel to town we use public transport. 
The bit about Sikhs who trim there beard to speed up getting ready not sure if you agree or not, please clarify.
And still the question of where is it written not answered. 
Any way thank you for your post it has been very helpful in showing your personal view and in no way really puts down others. I hope my response has helped you understand mine. 
Respectfully 
Tony


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## singhbj (Apr 15, 2009)

These videos were posted by Singhbj on a separate thread. Each one of them has relevance to parts of this discussion. You can also view them on the original thread. Thank you Singhbj ji


Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Please see these video's

YouTube - TAKE AMRIT BAPTISIM- SIKH RELIGION


YouTube - BANA - Talk in Punjabi with Sadasat Simran Singh


YouTube - The Purpose of Hair


History and Significance of 'Sikh Rehat Maryada': JusPunjabi Interviews GS Lamba

Thanks

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 15, 2009)

What about that quote that everyone throws around, attributing to Guru Gobind Singh?
Rehit pyari mujhko Sikh pyara nahin
I like the rehit more than I like Sikhs. 

This is meant to indicate the importance of rehit to Sikhs. Rehit would include the 5 Ks, etc.
OK fair enough but let's look at it with a different perspective.
Assuming Guru Sahib said that. If the rehit was really THAT important to him, why did he not write it down on paper?
He had all this time writing down the long stories in Dasam Granth. I mean Guru Nanak lived to an older age and was practically into this "business", even he did not write as much as Guru Gobind Singh did in Dasam Granth. SGGS is what like 1400 pages and includes banis of like 40 people. Dasam Granth written by one person, is longer....

This person who could write this huge granth with endless stories, could NOT write the rehit down??? (and perhaps its imporatance)
It seems a bit fishy to me...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 15, 2009)

> I have QUOTED the Single Line KESO KESO KOOKEAH...by Kabir Ji...as this Tuk genuinely stands alone...as the meaning is crystal clear... KESO is the LORD with Long Flowing KESH..and KOOKEAH means SHOUT out at the top of ones voice so thats heard all over. I am naturally curious that NONE of the GURUS, BHAGATS have DESCRIBED their BELOVED as "BALDY....shining Domed...chilkdah khoparr...Lord with the receeding forehead...Lord with the Horsetaill..punky hair..etc.etc. NOT ONE such "description"....i mean at least one should have mentioned...the LORD as such..( Never mins what message/etc behind the tuk/description...Lots of Brahmins at that time went BALD or had punky hair styles !! In fact many JOKES exist about these Brahmins and their POOCH on TOP !! No offense meant towards baldies punkys etc.


I thought I had answered that.
Anyways here is that answer again: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98163 
scroll down a bit if you dont see it straightaway


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## Amarpal (Apr 15, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

All honest questions must be answered truthfully. I will attempt to do the same here. 

(i) *Your question:* “Did Guru Ji expected every Sikh irrespective of their individual abilities to fight wear a uniform?”

*My response**:* Even Doctors in Army wear uniform though they do not fight nor the enemy knowingly attacks them.

*Elaboration**: *When the fight is on, all available resources are used. Injured and elderly are assigned works within their capabilities to further the cause of for which one is fighting. All do not have to go to the front; there are many other works to be done, including cooking meals for those who are at the front, taking care of the injured. Yet all wear uniforms. No one will ever say if you are not fighting or to strong enough to fight you are not a solider, there are even clerks in army wearing uniform.

During Guru Ka Baag agitation, during British rule, it was men who went in and faced the sticks of police, when these men fell, it was the women who removed them and gave them first aid and helped their movement to hospital. An American press reporter who was witness to what was happening sent a telephonic dispatch which said ‘I am feeling that Jesus is being crucified. These men have swords on their person but they are not using them even to defend themselves, such is their conviction to the cause of non-violent agitation. This is shown in the film Gandhi you can see it. Later British relented and handed over the possession of Baag to Sikhs. Gandhi alive at that time sent a telegram ‘The first battle of freedom has been won, congratulations’. In this there event men and women of all age groups participated. It was a battle, yes, British used weapons (Lathis i.e. sticks) but the Sikhs did not use and type of force, yet the Sikhs won, because of the conviction that their faith gave them. These were men and women with Beard and Kesh with turbans. This is what we learned from the lives of our Guru Sahibans.

Sikhs are not escapists - they do not shed away from taking responsibilities. The conspicuous identity is given to prevent it from happening. We are not trouble makers but defenders of human rights of all irrespective of others religion. Remember we are, what we are, is because of the sacrifice made by people with conviction of past generations. If they were escapists then no one would have been there to elevate the sagging spirit of people of India. To face odds with conviction is the way of great who change the world. 

I will not be judgmental or say what is fair and what is not. I do not do it.

(ii) *Your opinion:* In my own opinion Khalsa = Sikh army, Sikhism = journey towards enlightenment/ spirituality, or Khalsa/ army = the need for a uniform, Sikhism/ spiritual journey = no requirement for outward identity, Both can reach the same end but they tread slightly different paths to reach it.

*My response**: *In a democratic society like ours one is free to an opinion. However, I wish to say that I do not agree with your opinion.

*Elaboration**:* Please ponder over the dual concept that Khalsa Panth has i.e. the concept of Miri and the concept of Piri. Khalsa Panth and its values and ways provide for both. Just spiritual elevation is not the intent of Sikh religion. Please keep in mind Sikh religion is life affirming religion. It is unlike most of the other religions which are life negating. As I understand, it will be extremely difficult for individuals to understand Sikhi who see Sikh religion through the prism of some other religion or who is a Sikh without convictions in the faith.

(iii) *Problem in **England**:* “the problem is that in England --------“

*My response**:* Tony Ji, this problem of more, bigger. Better; I, my and mine; is the dust of materialistic living. It is not the problem of people in England alone; it is here in India and in Punjab too. 

It is the ways of Sikhi that tells us the way to come out of it; live a full life of house holder; contribute handsomely to the society and yet evolve spiritually. 

In my opinion you are on the correct path. Only in an active mind questions will arise. Continue this them never conclude that you have got the ultimate answer. As to progress in life, learning from experience and scripture, you will get enriched. Things will look differently to you as the learnig intensifies. This is the way to evolve.

With this I close the post.

I think we have discussed enough.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 15, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AAd Ji,
> what I mean is that its simple "instruction"..no other meaning...
> 
> kbIr kyso kyso kUkIAY n soeIAY Aswr ]
> ...


 
Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let me offer my 2 cent worth. The facts of our Gurus lives stand on their own. Turbans were only used by the nobles and our Gurus defied that. Long hair was mainly linked with the sages and wise men. Our Gurus defied that too and ofcourse the followers must have followed the same to emulate our Gurus.

Now, regarding Kabir ji's salok and other tuks in Gurbani about Ik Ong Kaar having long hair is part of the poetic imagery and allegory by the writers in their beautiful poetry. The reason they used this imagery  in their  beautiful poetry was because all the Hindu Gods had long hair and so did Jesus and Moses if one comes to think of it. Nothing more. 

The Moolmanter describes Ik Ong Kaar as formless, gendelress, timeless Creative Energy. Nothing hairy about that.

No offense intended.

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 15, 2009)

Tewant Singh ji

Kabir is talking about Ram who is always shown with long hair. Just look at how he starts that shabad.
Scroll up on the previous page and I have a link to some quotes like these, with a sentence explaining why  it is like that...


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 15, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Gyani ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 Tejwant Ji,

So as per your 2 cent understanding, we must make correction in His perfection and shave off as muslim make circumcision. But as many times you cut the hair, it grows again. On the contrary the one which does not grow again, i.e. circumcision Guru sahib warns, 'saabat soorat dastar sira'. Please read the whole sabd and judge by yourselves.

Best regards
Sahni Mohinder 

Mohinder sahni


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 15, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *Respected Gyani Jio*
> *Thanks for nice views*
> 
> *Let me share an example that proves that Guru Nanak wore bana( dress) obviously he doesn’t criticize bana but hypocrisy of people hidden behind bana ( Those Guru Vaakas that criticize hypocrisy are often ignorantly used against Sikh-bana by some Sikhs who are against it). I would support it with an example*
> ...


 
Pk70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for  choosing 2 partial verses ( half of each verse)  to express your viewpoint from the Shabad which has total of 73. Would you be kind enough to share the RAHAO verse of this post? We all know that RAHAO is the nectar of the whole Shabad and it gives us the main idea what this Shabad is all about. The rest of the verses of any Shabad compliment RAHAO. As urged by Gyani ji and many others, that all of us who express our viewpoints with the help of Gurbani, must give the complete Shabad and especially share the meaning of RAHAO.

So , my request to you with your vast Gurmat knowledge is to shine some Gurmat light on the RAHAO and share with us the true message of our Guru in this Shabad. As the Shabad is very long it can also be divided into diferent posts. Just a suggestion.

Thanks and waiting for your Gurmat enlightenment.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 15, 2009)

japjisahib04 said:


> Tejwant Ji,
> 
> So as per your 2 cent understanding, we must make correction in His perfection and shave off as muslim make circumcision. But as many times you cut the hair, it grows again. On the contrary the one which does not grow again, i.e. circumcision Guru sahib warns, 'saabat soorat dastar sira'. Please read the whole sabd and judge by yourselves.
> 
> ...


 
Mohinder Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please do not distort what I said. I did not say nor implied anything what you are talking about. I have no idea where you got the above from except from your own fertile mind. Please read my post again.I did not mention any Shabad in my post but talked about the poetic imagery and allegory of this beautiful Gurbani. Nothing more.

Please let me know if you disagree with the description mentioned in Mool manter of Ik Ong Kaar. 

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 15, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear Singh JI
> Thank you for your post but you seem to think that I'm only asking about hair, I'd also like to know why about the rest, Why you keep them and how they help you in every day life please.


 
One at a time Tony.  




> You say that I cut my hair for individuality ego reasons but the reasons are no different to yours, Both are about identity yours and mine that is, A sikh uses hair to say an individual is a Sikh, As a punk uses his hair. A skin head uses his or lack of hair, all are a statement of what they are, all are to say that the individual doesn't conform to the norm, to the socially acceptable.


 
This would be true, but for one thing you are missing.  This one thing is so obvious, so I don't uderstand how someone can miss it.  I FOLLOW the Guru.  THE  Tenth Master.  And what do you FOLLOW, your mind; ego, individuality, Manmat.

Guru Sahib said keep hair uncut and I do it.

The day I start cutting it, which will be never, but just for example sake, the day I start cutting it like you do then I would be a manmat (self-willed)

Thanks for writing Tony ji.


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## tony (Apr 15, 2009)

Dear Amarpal ji 
Thank you for your post and the kind comments at the end. said in the true spirit of Sikhism. My journey is still in the infant stage comparable with that of the average 10 yr old brought up in a Sikhi house old or probaly not that advanced, still at the but why stage, it is with the likes of yourself here on SPN that I'm learning (no father/ mother to ask). Thank you for your patience. 
Thank you Singhbj ji two of the videos wherent much use to myself as i dont speak panjabi, the first said what i already know to take amrit when ready. the third says that hair is part of the body and you need to be in touch with your body, Agree entirely. Problem, Guru jis and that all of them say to look after the body and keep it in good condition, How am I supposed to take note of someone talking of being in tune with his body when he clearly doesnt look after his , Obviously not it touch with his own body. Case of man preaching what he cant practise, the classic Turban and five K's is enough, a lazy approach to Sikhism and an obvious over indulger. Just a personal opinion as a personal trainer. No offence meant to yourself and if the Gentleman in the video would like advice on his physical condition I would be glad to offer it free of charge, Go's for any one on the forum.
Thank you Tejwant ji your two cents worth often adds up to a lot more. 
Respect for all 
Tony


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## pk70 (Apr 15, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Pk70 ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




*I beg to differ with your theory of “Rahao” here.  Some time I wonder what do you think when you  ask such questions. Any one even the one who is just a beginner can understand that the quotes I have given are questions and answers. A question is asked and an answer is provided. The Rahao gave in this bani has nothing to do with the process of questioning in particular. My post is limited to that question asked in context of Bana and Guru ji’s admission obviously proves that Guru ji wore that Bana, if he did why would he speak against Bana?  The truth remains about that intact. Rahao inserts Guru ji’s own views about Him in Sidhgost( that’s why it’s one time only in the beginning). What I have given are not a partial verses as per your theory riddled with your own assumption that points at me. These two Guru Vaakas stand alone due to the contest of the question and given answer. Just for information that is why there is no “Rahao”  in process of questioning and answering. *
*The Rahao comes only one time in the beginning of Sidhgost, here it is*
*ਕਿਆ ਭਵੀਐ ਸਚਿ ਸੂਚਾ ਹੋਇ [/FONT]**॥[/FONT] **ਸਾਚ ਸਬਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT]**॥[/FONT] *
*Ki▫ā bẖavī▫ai sacẖ sūcẖā ho▫e.[/FONT]   **Sācẖ sabaḏ bin mukaṯ na ko▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT]   *
*What is the good of wandering about? it is through the True Name, that the man is rendered pure.[/FONT] **Without the True Name, No one is emancipated[/FONT]*.[/FONT] (*Tr by S Mamohan Singh Ji)  *

* These Guru Vakas have nothing to do with the question Yogi asks Guru ji and the answer Guru ji gives in context of Bana. Both question and answer indicate about History.( That’s why Dr Sahib Singh too mentions the history  while interpreting this part)*
*Thanks *
*Regards*


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## tony (Apr 15, 2009)

Dear Singh ji
You say you follow the tenth Guru ji . two questions when did he tell you this, where did you see his Hukam. I have asked this many times but as yet you still havent answered honestly. I do as my mind tells me and that is also how I came to choose Sikhism, So as to your logic to choose to be a Sikh is manmat, this means that only those who are Sikh from birth can ever truly be a Sikh, It would also be my own choice as all on the forum have said as to when the time is right for me to take Amrit, Again this would be a manmat decision. I might follow my own mind but it is better than blindly following without knowledge of why. The SGGS clearly states that your body and hair do not follow you and to keep an attachment to them is in my mind an attachment to Maya, will serve you no purpose when you die so why keep them now. You have also made a judgement of me based on your own perception of what I wrote, is that Manmat. Do I really cut my hair for ego, in what way. I've already stated thats its not for any of the reasons you mentions before. so just because at this moment in time i have made a choice not to keep kesh and you appear to think that you are following Guru jis alledged Hukam you percieve yourself better than I, True Sikhi spirit if ever there was, As I have failed to follow something that as yet I dont understand (the five K's), you have also failed in the fact that you judge others and fail to understand the concept of equality. so if your willing to share how they help you it would be a start to redeeming yourself and also a start for me to understand better and hopefully one day redeem myself from my manmat state of mind. (true Sikhi, helping each other)
Tony


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 15, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear Singh ji
> You say you follow the tenth Guru ji . two questions when did he tell you this, where did you see his Hukam. I have asked this many times but as yet you still havent answered honestly.


 
Tony ji, this has been answered, I gave the answer to Virinder, when he said there is no biblographic evidence. Here it is again.

*The biblographic evidence is the living Khalsa of todays time that serve the Lord in full devotion. These same Khalsas were named Baba Deep Singh ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji. These Khalsas carry the evidence you need.*

Also these same Khalsas I speak of above, are the one's that told me about the Hukam. The Hukam from the Tenth Nanak lies with these Khalsas. 

_To the entire sangat at Kabul._
_The Guru will protect the Sangat,_
_I am pleased with you all._
_You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds._
_Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,_
_Accept the use of shorts and a sword._
_Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,_
_Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day._
Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,
_Do not use tobacco in any form,_
_Have no connection with those who kill their daughters_
_Or permit the cutting of their children's hair._
_Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)_
_Recite the Guru's hymns_
_Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",_
_Follow the Sikh code of discipline_
_I give the entire sangat my blessing)_
Signature of 10th Guru 
Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami 23rd May 1699 A.D 
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html 



> I do as my mind tells me and that is also how I came to choose Sikhism, So as to your logic to choose to be a Sikh is manmat, this means that only those who are Sikh from birth can ever truly be a Sikh, It would also be my own choice as all on the forum have said as to when the time is right for me to take Amrit, Again this would be a manmat decision.


 
By YOUR *mind* YOU 'choose' Sikhism. You have every right to believe what you want to believe and express your opinion.

As a Sikh, Sikh of the Guru and by Guru Sahib teaching, das was blessed *to be put on this path*. I can't do anything. if I could do something then "me" would be on the materialistic path.





> I might follow my own mind but it is better than blindly following without knowledge of why.


 
I have complete trust in Guru Sahibs word and the knowledge of why is attained when I live the word. For a Sikh the why is answered when the word is put into action. A quick reminder of Bhai Lehna ji and Bhai Jetha ji as I told you in a different thread is needed.



> The SGGS clearly states that your body and hair do not follow you and to keep an attachment to them is in my mind an attachment to Maya, will serve you no purpose when you die so why keep them now.


 
The 5 k's are a gift from the Tenth Master. These gifts should be held dear to a Sikh. The 5 k's help a person progress on the path of Sikhi. Maya is something that takes you away from Sikhi.



> will serve you no purpose when you die so why keep them now


 
By this notion, Tony ji you should stop eating. Eating will serve you no purpose when you die so why eat now.

The hint to the question I know you will ask me once you read this will come in a essay I will post right after I respond to this post of your's.



> You have also made a judgement of me based on your own perception of what I wrote, is that Manmat.


 
There was no judgement made, I wrote on what you gave me.



> Do I really cut my hair for ego, in what way.


 
I told you because you want your individuality. You follow the mind and do as you please. As recently you say it irritates you and once again this would be called manmat (self-willed).





> I've already stated thats its not for any of the reasons you mentions before. so just because at this moment in time i have made a choice not to keep kesh and you appear to think that you are following Guru jis alledged Hukam you percieve yourself better than I,


 
No one said anyone is better, I just told you what you are doing. You made a choice to cut your hair and this goes against Guru Sahibs Hukam and your choice to do it is defined as Manmat. What is wrong is wrong. There is no need to apply sugar to make something look better because ultimately the sugar will dissolve. 



> True Sikhi spirit if ever there was, As I have failed to follow something that as yet I dont understand (the five K's), you have also failed in the fact that you judge others and fail to understand the concept of equality.


 
Your lashing out at me and making false accusations will not help you at all. 



> so if your willing to share how they help you it would be a start to redeeming yourself and also a start for me to understand better and hopefully one day redeem myself from my manmat state of mind. (true Sikhi, helping each other)
> Tony


 
Tony ji, there are some people that just say they want to be helped and then there are the one who say it and mean it. i am not here to impress or gain browny points, so there is no need for me to 'redeem' myself. If you don't like my straight forward answers then click the lil 'x' in the corner.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 15, 2009)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*These Are Not Symbols*[/FONT]
*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Harcharan Singh[/FONT]*






[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The following is a lettter from a father to his son in response to the son’s crisis of faith. The son wrote to his father that he did not feel that the five symbols had any significance or relavance in today’s modern society and was considering abandoning them. In response the father wrote a letter to his son about the priceless value of the 5K’s which is easily forgotten in the modern material world.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dearest Jaskirat,[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sat Sri Akal. I must thank you for the deep confidence and the love you have for me. It has always been a joy to read through your letter as they manifest, the sensity of the seeker of truth. I am very happy that you had the courage and conviction to express so openly the things that seem to have been distressing your heart. I somehow felt all this brewing up in you, for the last two years, but had never allowed myself to face it directly, till you wrote the present letter. It is a pleasure to hear it all so plainly stated and I hope, I shall understand and clam your mental anguish.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When you leave the university and face the world it seems to me that what is crucial in life is not to succumb, not to bow your head to various pressures, but to know and feel them as they are, in a gentle spirit, with a great inward strength, so that these pressures will not create conflict in your life. You may question what is given to you or what many of your age assert is being forced on you - but this also means that you must question yourself. You must not merely question, what you call the significance, the need, the value of your own life. It is only with such an integrated total approach that you will understand not only the Kirpan, the Kara, the Kanga, the Kesh and the Kachha, but also appreciate the agonies, the joys, the pain, the pleasure, the vanities and hope of living.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In your letter, the one word which has overpowered you , the one emotion which drives you on, is significance. Over and over again, you want to know what is the significance of the 5 K’s? The word certainly is not out of place in our materialistic and individualistic existence. In our efforts to be practical individuals, we want to imbibe only what is of utility and significance, the rest we want to discard. The search for significance in everything is a curse for the present century. It is a form of self-enclosure, self- killing and therefore it breeds the fear of living. The whole world, all your friends, your relations, everyone is struggling for significant and useful things. But what might be significant for you might not be so for your friends.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you go to a man who has ill-health, he will undoubtedly say, what is significant is good health. If you go to a man who has not had enough wealth in all his life, he will say what is significant in life is money. If you go to a mother she will say the significant thing is to have a son. This is the reason to find an intricate web of explanations, for the significance 5 K’s. Every one views it from his own angle of significance.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first step in your questioning of the 5 K’s should be to be free of this yoke of significance. It is this illusionary search for significance, which has made many young ones and their seniors, discard their Kesh, because they see no value in them. It is a pity that we want to reduce Sahib Guru Gobind Singhji, to our own mundane level of thinking and view all his actions in light of practical animal utility. If he was in search of merely objects of practical utility, he could have made a truce with Aurangzeb, when the latter made the offer. Shivaji did so at one stage, because his search was different, his life was different. If the rider of the dark blue steed, wanted the 5 K’s to be reflections of practical use values, he could have very well added not only more weapons, but instead of a sword, he would have given us a gun, as guns did exist at that time. A gun would have been more efficient and better suited for self-defense and for war too. But he was not inspired out of a hunt for weapons of self-defense or practical value, as we would make it out, reflecting our own thinking backwards in history. The Guru Sahib was not a novice in the ways of arms, if he only wanted his Sikhs to be armed for war, through these 5 K’s he would have rather equipped them the way he did Banda Bahadur at Nanader, when he gave him 5 arrows and a bow. The sword, anyway, in the battlefield would have been useless without a shield. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Kanga, the Kesh, the Kara, the Kirpan and the Kachha were all delicate gifts of love and beauty to the Khalsa from his Master who desired nothing for himself, but everything for the Khalsa. These gifts were from a Guru who grabbed not the gifts of his disciples but instead totally surrendered everything for the cause and love of the Khalsa. A way of total love which was to be unique for the Khalsa; “Jau tau prem khelan ka chao sir dhar tali gali meri ao.” (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) “If thou art zealous of playing the game of love, then enter upon my path with thy head on they palm,” It was out of such love that these gifts were presented to the Khalsa and not out of any attempt to carve our soldiers. When there is total love there is action, there is sacrifice. Is it not so? The love of Guru for the Khalsa was not the result of mental vibrations, and there was in his life no gap between love and action, as there is between our thinking and action. It is only we who want to be one sided in our love and make claims of loving the Guru in our ideals, in our heart and consequently we reason out that we don’t have to express our love for Him in action, in the Desh, but can there be love without total commitment and action? No the total love of Kalgidhar Guru Gobind Singh Ji for the Khalsa becomes apparent in the book titled Surbloh, where, he becomes one with the Khalsa and portrays the Khalsa as his highest love:[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is the breath of my body,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is the very soul of my life,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my real pride and glory,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my own personal self,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my life’s sustainer,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my body and breath,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my creed and karma,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my conscience keeper,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my perfect satguru,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my brave friend,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa gives me intellect and wisdom,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa is my object of meditation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The mind that loves the Sikh ways of life is a religious mind because it is the movement of living, of action, of truth, of God and it is only such a mind that can know what is the beauty of gifts that Guru gave to us. The 5 ornaments that we wear are the gifts, from a Guru, whose two younger sons, seven and nine years old faced martyrdom in Sirhind in a manner which is unequaled in the long annals of human history. These two innocent children were walled alive because they refused to bow before the sword of hatred. The Guru’s mother merged into the Supreme Being at Sirhind during persecution. The two elder sons of the Guru counted martyrdom fighting in action for us. Guru Sahib himself had been attacked with dagger by two cowardly Pathans at Nanded in Deccan, causing serious injury.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Could such a Benevolent Being whose whole family was destroyed for the total love of the Khalsa, be looking for practical utilities of an animal existence? He was not the person to endow us with gifts of mere practical value, but gifts of love, which knew no questioning, no bartering, no deals and no betraying. His was a total sacrifice and a total love in both thought and action, for the happiness of the Khalsa and these gifts had their pangs of birth in a sea of human blood. It was not out of any practical benefit that the evil genius of the Mughal government announced awards for the hair of Sikhs. It was because they knew that without these gifts, without these embodiments of the Guru’s love, the Khalsa would disintegrate.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All the children of the Khalsa are to always wear a sword, in now way their own private possession or property. The Kirpan is a gift from Guru Gobind Singh Ji to the Khalsa. It is not to be judged and measured as a weapon of war or peace, it is a gift activated by the love of the Guru. Even a whole army of bodyguards of the best police state in the worlds cannot make it redundant. It shall always remain attached to me, the bodyguards cannot make it obsolescent. The sword is the love wherein the Guru resides. A Guru who in his love saw no difference between human beings and fused all of us in one creed of devotion, service and sacrifice, in an age when common men were hanged for even drawing water from the same well, as that of the higher castes. The lower castes were beaten to death if they as such touched the kitchen utensils of a Brahmin.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Kalal - a wine distiller, once came for the Guru’s darshan and stood at a distance, for the caste of the Kalal was considered low in the social hierarchy. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji, saw him he said, “Come in and sit with all of us in the tent.” The man quivered, hesitated and said, “How can I, the lowest of the low, sit in the assembly of the gods? Guru Ji, I am a kalal whose mere sight pollutes.” On hearing this, Guru Sahib instructed His musicians and bards, to welcome the man with music and songs and coming down from his couch to bless him. He said, “You are not a kalal, but a ‘Guru ka-Lal’, ‘a Ruby of the Guru.’ Who has such love for us? The sword which we have, is an ornament for all of us, the rich and the poor, you , me and the whole humanity. To wear a sword which was once a privilege of the few high born, under the dictates of the Mughal aristocracy, with the Guru’s blessings became a gift which any one could carry, without fear of being prosecuted, because now it was in love from the Guru to the Khalsa “dan dio iniko bhalo avaranko dan na lagat niko.” (Guru Gobind Singh). “To bestow gifts on them alone is worthy, to make gifts to others is not kind”.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When his hands stroked our hair, washed them, combed them, dressed, knotted them and placed in them the invaluable Kanga, how can we, his sons and daughters, bear our hair to be cut? The Guru Sahib saturated our hair with Amrita. He left the imprint of his blessings and joy in our hair. Our hair are like the untouched pearl in the deep oceans not yet disfigured by the fortune hunters. You say it is inconvenient, frustrating, impractical to grow our hair long. But more frustrating is an existence of no inspiration, no effort. Our superficial hollow life is no way less discouraging. The day to day fragmentary living, the everyday struggle for food, the daily pain, suffering, distress, torments and headaches are in no way less discomforting. But inspite of all this do we cease to exist? No, on the contrary we strive all the more and struggle for pleasure, gratification, comforts and joy. If we can reconcile ourselves to such an empty living, can we not grow our hair long which is so inspiring, creative, fulfilling and above all a gift from our Guru, a gift whose rejection would be a rejection of our existence, the negation of the very purpose of our life.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the West, the children love so much the gifts made to them on Christmas by the mythical Santa Claus, they hungrily search their stockings for the gifts placed in them by their parents and after receiving their gifts feel so elated and we so ungrateful, that we fight, throw away, kick at the gifts of our loving father, who kept nothing for the future of his House and gifted to us everything he possessed - physical, spiritual and material.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The elegant kachha we wear every day is the very same as the one worn by Guru Ji himself, by his disciples and by his lovers. Clad in it, we are one with him. The exotic wooden comb he tucked in our hair, also combed, danced and swung in his hair. The kanga, is the new born baby, playing in the lap of the loving mother, whom we so brutally want to strangle. It was these very same presents, for which tens and thousands of my brothers laid down their lives. Have you watched the tears in eyes of a sheep while she is being sheared? And many of us so happy without our hair. we for sure have traveled a long way from the animal.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The kara has to be received by us as a present from our Guru, which is not comparable to our wealth, our intelligence, our achievements. It comes to us as a manifestation of His love and benefaction. It is strange behavior indeed that we constantly argue about it. He put on our wrist the kara, from that day it was for ever ours, no one could separate it from a Sikh, and we still advance reasons for it. He loved me. He made me his own. He elevated me from the darkness of ignorance to light of spiritual consciousness. Can I not even make his gifts my own? We his children, have to wear these gifts, carved out of infinite love. One with these gifts, we blossom, separated from them we wither. The decay in the Khalsa is apparent.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Each one of us wears the hair and beard of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, exactly as he wore them. We are created in his majestic image. Jab lag rahe khalsa niara, tab lag tej dio mai sara, jab eh gahain bipran ki ritl, mai na karo in ki partit” (Guru Gobind Singh) “So long as the Khalsa retains identity, I will bestow to them full glory; but the moment they adopt Brahmanical ways, I will not protect them.” Our significance is in Him, and not anywhere without Him and his gifts. In these gifts we are reminded of his Omniscence, Omnipotence and Omnipresence.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jaskirat, do not make our presents into dead symbols, they are the gorgeous ornaments of the living. We are the “Wedded Women” of the God. They are the wedding gifts from our Bridegroom. He gave all of them to use and they are God-sent - imperishable, indispensable and indestructible, superstitious and fatalistic. But the waves of pure love always have their own logic, rationality and fatalism. I love the Guru’s irrationality - if you want to call it so “sev kari inhiman bhavat, aur ki sev suhat na jiko.” (Guru Gobind Singh) “To serve them pleaseth me, service of any other is not dear to me.” I don’t have the courage to reject such devotion.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Does a would-be-wife question the intrinsic value of the engagement ring, she is gifted by her husband? No, never, even if it is made of copper or a shell. Today, you want to discard these gifts, because gold has more value. Yes, iron was poor in worldly goods. A wealthy merchant, Hargopal once grudgingly brought for Guru Gobind Singh, two gold bracelets studded with precious jewels, not because he loved the Guru, but because he felt that in doing so, he would please his own father, who was a devotee of the Guru Sahib. One of these expensive bracelets accidentally fell into the Jamna river from the hands of Guru Ji. At this, Hargopal was very displeased and when his attempt to recover the bracelet proved futile, he asked Guruji to point at the exact place where he had dropped the bracelet, so that he could take it out. To indicate the place in the river, where the bracelet had fallen, Guru Gobind Singh Ji took out the other gold bracelet from his wrist and throwing it in the river he told Hargopal, “It is there.”[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You want to question the utility of the iron bangle of the Guru, but not of the gold bangle which is so much in vogue at Sikh engagement ceremonies today. You are ready to discard the Guru’s bangle for the yellow metal. But do not forget your first marriage, out of whose womb you stand today, aspiring for these worldly gifts. The body can be made the basis of either animal inconsistency or a divine temple. The choice is yours, the solitude of separation is yours. These gifts are not to be stored in the darkness of the cellars; think deep into them, if you want to live in spiritual grandeur.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The head of a Sikh, the kesh of a Sikh, having been once offered and accepted, become forever of the Guru. It is an unceasing trust with Him. It is therefore imperative for a Sikh to carry his head high and not to bow it before a mortal barber. It shall only bend and bow before the Guru. Once a new musket was brought as a present for Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He said, to test the love of his disciples, that he wanted to try the aim of the musket on someones forehead. He looked around and asked if any of his Singhs would offer himself for the trial. Quick come up-scores of unflinching Sikhs, each pushing the other one away, regarding it as a boon to meet death at the Guru’s hand, and we today so uninspired, sleeping beauties that except for empty words, have no deeds worthy of our name.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Everyday we recite in our prayer, “Nanak das sada Kurbani.” “Nanak thy servant is ever a sacrifice to Thee.” But what is that we sacrifice everyday? Guru Gobind Singh was the purest sacrifice. We may never reach his height, but some sacrifice we can do. But instead we sacrifice our 5 K’s. Shocking is our spirit of sacrifice. If the Khalsa today is hollow, it is because we forget our tradition of sacrifices, it is because we forget the love of a sacrificer, it is because we regard his gifts as mere symbols. “Balhari gur apne diohadi sadvar.” (Guru Nanak) “I am a sacrifice to my Guru Hundred times a day.” Are we the worthy inheritors of this heritage? After drawing on his blood, now we want to stab him in the back![/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jaskirat, one kilometer, from the Lahore railway station stands a gurdwara, sacred to the Sikhs in the loving memory of Bhai Taru Singh Ji. It bears the name of Shahid Ganj, the Abode of Martyrs. Bhai Sahib was resident of village Poola where he had a small piece of land. The wheat and the maize that he produced and the humble mud hut he had, he happily shared with all the weary travelers who passed through the village and needed a shelter to sleep for the night. He belonged wholly to the Guru’s hymns and early in the morning under the stars, while on the plough, with a white turban and a blue chola, a poor toiler of the earth, he recited the Japji. The Japji which has in it the inimitable cosmicness of life in nature. The villagers loved Taru Singh for his fellow feeling harmlessness and spiritual purity.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But being a Sikh, Taru Singh was not destined to live any longer, his life of love, free from the hatred of caste colour and religion. The authoritarian Mughal government of medieval India was not willing to appreciate the way of life of the Sikhs, which drew no dividing line between man and man, between Hindus and Muslims, between Brahims and Sardars “manas ki jat sab ik hi pahchanho”. (Guru Gobind Singh) “All men are the same”, it was a creed which cut at the very rood of Mughal establishment based on human distinctions. To extinguish this smithy of love, the government offered to its subjects numerous monetary awards for the heads of the Sikhs and they were declared outlaws. The greed for gold tempted Bhagat Nirangi to lodge a complaint against Bhai Taru Singh, with the Subedar (governor) of Lahore, stating that he gave shelter, to dacoits, the Sikhs, and the property of Muslim and Hindu subjects of His Gracious Majority, was unsafe. Such a complaint was unnecessary for the very living of a Sikh was a reason enough for the state armed forces, to go and imprison Bhai Taru Singh, who was bound in ropes and brought before the Subedar.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the Subedar, saw this young man of 23, he was overwhelmed and shaken by his presence. He felt himself transposed to another world. There was a radiance around him which made the Nawab exclaim: “Khaunda! What a divine Noor (glory) on his face. I pray that he should be a Musalman!” Addressing Taru Singh, the Nawab said, “O, graceful Sikh, I feel sorry for you and I wish to give you a new lease of life." Taru Singh with tears in his eyes, responded: “Reward me with a new lease of life? Why stain me with such dishonour while my brothers and sisters are being martyred here before me, every day, every hour? The Subedar said, you presence is resplended with a heavenly light. Somehow my heart does not permit me to have you killed, but you must cut and present me your tress-knot.”[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Taru Singh replied, “The Sikh and his hair are one. I will be pleased to give you more than you ask me, my head with my tress-knot”. These hair are the eternal gift of love, of immeasurable beauty to the Khalsa by our Guru, they cannot be separated from a Singh’s head, without separating his head. The one who just looks at them can never understand them. It is like looking into a mirror, but you are not one with the mirror. The observer is only capable of experiencing, he is never mirror, the experience, the state itself. These hair are the fountain of joy, the spring of life for us.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Subedar still confident of bribing him then said: “Taru Singh, you are too young. You have not yet experienced the beauty and joy of life. I will make arrangements for your marriage with a woman of your choice. You will be awarded with high mansob (office) in the Mughal army. You will be endowed with a hereditary jagir, I promise you all sorts of luxuries but you must part with your way of life and accept the Muslim religion.”[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Guru ka Sikh can never be tamed and now his tears mingling with a smile of joy, Taru Singh replied, “Having been sent by Him they come (into the world) and recalled by Him they go back”, said Guru Nanak. “It is the right and privilege of the brave to die”, says He, “For a Sikh, life has beginning and no end - it is both death and life. Neither my life nor my hair are for bargaining in your court which views beauty, life and religion in weights of gold. The value and beauty of our hair cannot be measured in terms of luxuries and jagirs. Your thinking is materialistic and is therefore negligible, but an integrated living is always spiritual”.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Subedar could no longer bear this song of truth as he cried out, “Stop him, for he disturbs the law and order of our province. Kill him, for he disturbs the law and order of our province. Kill him at once, but cut his hair before.” The Mughal soldiers caught hold of Bhai Sahib’s head and chin, but the barber found it impossible to bring his hand near his head. With a stroke of his head he would push back his captors and make them whirl on the ground. A cobbler was then sent for, to try his skill with his tools and scrape off Taru Singh’s hair, but his attempt too proved abortive. At last the help of a carpenter was asked for the foul deed with a stroke of his age, he cut off Bhai Taru Singh’s head (1743 A.D.) but failed to cut his tress-knot.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thakur Rabindranath Tagore, a great mystic poet of Bengal has beautifully sung of this episode:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Parathona Atit Dan - “More than asked For”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For a Sikh to cut his tress-knots[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Amounts to discarding his dharma[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Pathans brought, bound hand and foot, the Sikh prisoners,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Shahid Ganj earth turned red with their blood The Nawab addressing Taru Singh,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]said unto him:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]‘I wish to spare thy life’.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Taru Singh retorted: Spare my life![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why thou dishonors me?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Said the Nawab: Thou art bravest of the brave?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]‘I don’t wish to wreak my anger on thee,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Taru Singh replied: ‘O Nawab they request with my heart I comply and liberally grant thee more than what thou begest of me:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]‘My head with my tress-knot’,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jaskirat, if Bhai Taru Singh had looked for practical utility, significance and relevance wouldn’t he have exchanged his hair for a Jagir, for beautiful women and the power he was offered? But all these he regarded as worthless when he weighted them with his way of life. If the hair were mere symbols for him, would he have staked his life for them. The term symbols can never express the depth of these gifts. You will never find even a most dutiful policeman leaping to death, to uphold a short circuited burning traffic light signal, because it is a sheer symbol for the cars and lorries on the road, it is an external factor to his life. But our 5K’s are much deeper and profound than symbols and this is the reason we find not only Bhai Taru Singh, but a whole galaxy of martyrs in our History - Bhai Mati Das, Dyal Chand, Bhai Mani Singh and Subeg Singh - all playing with their lives, which appears to us so irrational and fatalistic.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Son, you merely read about the 5 symbols in isolation, meditate on them as links with lives of your ancestors, it is only then that their meaning will be apparent to you. In themselves the 5K’s might appear to be mere symbols, show windows but it is only when they are knit with our lives, woven in our existence, painted with our daily sorrow and joys that their value, justification and significance emerges. They are inseparable from our life and if you perceive of them as separate, it is not surprising that they appear to be frivolous, justified and a burden of the past. If you are wounded and in agony it is because you want to separate, from yourself, what is vital for existence.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately, you visualized only a part in segregation from the whole. You are looking out of a small window set in the wall, from which the outside may appear to be attractive and convincing for sometimes, but it does not allow you to view the beauty of life. Without linking these ornaments of love, with your daily existence, you can never have perception of the whole, therefore you will always be sad and when the end comes, you will still be grouping in the darkness of your cell; you will have had nothing but hallucinations and a lot of empty words. But if you fall in love, now with these unique gifts, if you love your Kesh not, the Kirpan you wear, then son as you grow up, you will not remain in your dungeon with its dark windows, but will leave it and love the whole way of life. If you don’t constantly have a passionate love for those presents of the Guru, then you are like a flower without fragrance, withered and lying in the dust, being crushed and kicked by every pedestrian. Only he can have love for God, who abandons his ego, forgets himself completely and thereby brings the state of creative consciousness. The “me” and “I” from its very birth is constantly building a barrier of knowledge around itself, around its actions and ultimately leads to isolation and despair. A life of the dead.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Knowledge is only a minor part of life, not the totality and when it thus assumes all consuming significance, as it is now then your life becomes artificial, an empty cut, from which man tries to escape, through superficial escapes with disastrous results. Knowledge is like a kerosene lame on a dark night, but it can illuminate only so long as it has fuel. Life is much vaster and deeper, it cannot be lived with the aid of an extinguishable lamp. Knowledge is essential to everyday existence, as money is to but your food, but it cannon grasp the reality of love, of God, of living. Love is not to be hooky in the net of intelligence; if you use knowledge to grasp love, it will die as one fish dies out of water. Knowledge must be left behind for love to be. Burdened with mechanical learning you will never understand what is beauty, what is measurable. The light of knowledge is a covering under which lies a realm of truth, which knowledge cannot penetrate. The worship of knowledge is a ritualistic pilgrimage, which can never dissolve the contradictions and miseries of life. Mere knowledge, however earnestly learnt and cleverly assembled, will never resolve the meaning of the 5 K’s to assume that it will, is to invite frustration and misery. You may know all about the working of the earth and the functioning of the skies and still not be free from sorrow, envy and pain.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To know these gifts, to value truth, to be one with God, you must have claims, to beliefs, no speculations “Sochia soch na hovai je sochai lakhvar” (Guru Nanak) “Mortal cannot comprehend Him by thought.” If you have gathered the knowledge of living, the knowledge itself becomes more important, not your living. If you want to understand these gifts, everything will come right. Live in them and there is understanding, “hukmai andarsabh ko bahr hnkam na koe. Nanak hukmi je bujhai ta haumai kahe na koe.” (Guru Nanak) “Nothing at all outside His will, abiding O Nanak, he who is aware of the supermen will never in his selfhood utterest the boast: It is I”. The Supreme Will was to live in the glory of these embellishments of our land so shall it be.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These gifts of ours are not symbols of a religion, or compulsory rites of a religion. The Sikh way of life is not to live on any set of rituals, formalism, talismans, penances, austerities, pilgrimages or symbols. The Sikhs were rebels against all this and more. The gurbani abounds, in hymns against ritualism and symbols. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said in on of his compositions “Yoga lies not in wearing patched garments, nor in carrying a staff, nor in smearing one’s body with ashes, nor does it lie in wearing earrings, not in cutting one’s hear, not in playing on a singi.” (Suhi I). Could anyone have said something more against the irrelevance of symbols. How strongly he felt against empty symbols may be gauged from these lines, “With tikka (the sacred mark) on their foreheads and dhoti wrapped around their loins and legs, they look pious, but in fact they are the world’s butchers carrying daggers in their hands.” (Asa-da-var) The shallowness of ritualism and symbols was exposed thoroughly by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the Akal Ustati:[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some worship but stocks and stones, while others suspend the lingum from their necks.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some look for the God in the East, other in the West,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some worship but idols, some are unwise enough to worship the dead;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All these are involved in a false show, and they find the Mystery, that is God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After the victory of the battle of Bhangani, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed Pir Budhu Shah, with no treasures and no elephants, for his service, as was the custom of that time, but a Kirpan and comb with some broken hair of his. These gifts are still preserved as sacred relics in the former princely state of Nabha. This very jewelry, he presented to all of us, inspite of the fact that our lives were not wrought in the furnace of sacrifice - a jeweler which no craftsman, no intellectual, no jeweler is capable of imitating. These gifts of ours are the constellation of superconsiousness, the very essence of breath of God in us, of which our tress-knots are the spiritual crown of humanity.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jaskirat, ask not from me the significance, the value, the power of our tress-knots, for I am incapable of describing it. In the meadows, dales and mountains of our tress-knots, the bliss of perennial joy flows, in the beautitude of our tress-knots, the flowers are fired. In our mystical tress-knots, the insipid mankind is inspired in the holiness of our pristine pure tress-knots, the sun chariot rides high in eternity; in the infinity of our tress-knots; the melting snow caps of the mountain peaks, wash away all sorrows; in our august tress-knots, the frenzied rain torrents pour; in the creativity of our transcendental tress-knots, his nakedness is robed anew in the effulgence of these gifts.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Live in the eternal joy of your tress-knots and you will know what it is, to be. Men collect the ashes of the departed soul and pray for him in the church and the temples and you want to discard, this living soul, this living temple! People build monuments for the dead, you want to uproot the living monument the Guru gave to you. If you want it to disintegrate you may, but you shall forever be buried under it.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The love shall still come your way because you are one of the descendants of the ancient lore, you will still flex your muscles when the song is of your forefathers, but you would have converted the garden of the living into the weeds of the dead. The gardener will shed his tears but no more will you grow. Soon, even his tears will dry as he tends new gardens. A time comes when no one knows, of the long ruined monument. It passes back into the womb of agony and is possessed by the serpents, jackals and chameleons.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jaskirat our 5 K’s are beyond the realm of rituals and symbols, they are the timeless ones. Can you and me enclose with our intellects what is not measurable? Can you and me enclose with out intellects what is not time? Can our constant hatred, anger, ugliness, lead us to the unknown? Do we have an instrument to gauge what has not beginning and no end? Can the truth of these gifts be trapped in the cage of logic? What we may capture by our mechanical knowledge and logic, is superficial, never the cosmicness of these presents. Many of us spiritedly respond to tranquilizers but living in love, needs no tranquilizers.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The beautiful, the loved can never be dissected and summed up. For these gifts, we can reach no conclusions, no morals and no judgments because they are not symbols, but pieces of art. What would the cuckoo’s song mean to you, if you want to take down its notation and analyze them? What would your mother be for you if you want to know her by analysis? Only a biological skeleton for procreation. You have so much trapped yourself in a net of words, of speculations that the feeling itself, which is the only thing that is deep and vital in us in lost. The significance or the insignificance of these gifts is not important. The highest art in life is to be beautiful. And these gifts are the force that creates the beautiful, the artistic in us. It is one in a million, who has the beauty of these ornaments.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The kesh, the kachha, the kara, the kanga and the kirpan are the gifts, chiseled out for the Khalsa, by the divine artist. These are gifts, endowed to us forever by the Divine Bridegroom, on the day of our marriage to him, on Baisakhi, in 1699 at Anandpur Sahib (The City of Bliss). They are true embodiments of art and anyone looking at them, can have his bosom full of meanings, ecstasy, inspiration, love, joy and what more can we wish? In them we have the treasure, mines, in them is the beauty and we are so ignorant of it. We the cosmic brides will carry his gifts of love, in honour, purity and splendour glory and our love will blossom in all climates, in all times and in all continents.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]May the blessing of Waheguru Ji be with you forever.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Your loving father[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Harchand Singh.[/FONT]

The Sikhism Home Page


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 15, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Gyani ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Ji,
Gurfateh.

No offence taken Ji..surely you know me well enough by now.

 1. YES I agree thta EK Oangkaar is Formless, and all the other Lesses combined...
BUT you must be aware of what Guru nanak ji in Sohila... says about Him having NO EYES..yet billions of eys...etc etc...No feet and yet billions of feet etc  He is IN HIS CREATION.
And The Sikh Gurus, the Bhagats, who loved LONG HAIR are also in His Creation. The Sikh Guurs,a nd the Bhagats..every SINGLE one of them LOVES the Creator..in His Long beautiful flowing Hair IMAGERY...so do we ( who keep kesh sacred ). It doesnt mean that we "think" that He has long flowing Hair...although even the Bible and related scriptures do declare that MAN is created in the IMAGE of the Creator....and the "IMAGE" of the Creator that Kabir Ji is so ecstatic about in the above quote is the IMAGE that the KHALSA love to keep. We all can choose " what IMage" we want..its as simple as that..the Gurus in GURBANI chose the Long flowing Kesh type..and we as Sikhs..follow suit...anyone who doesnt want to follow is also welcome to do so...its his/her choice.

And YES it IS definitley  NOTHING MORE than just the URGE to FOLLOW the GURU/look like the Guru/ Emulate the Guru..Honour the Guru...etc etc. Thats the EASY PART..the difficult part comes AFTER Pahul....when we try and MOULD our daily LIFE according to His TEACHINGS.

Chardeekalla Ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2009)

Here si something related that I came across in a Malaysian Islamic Forum...written by a Muslim Girl on her experiences wearing Hijaab..

*[FONT=verdana,Arial]I was not able to see that I was oppressed until I stepped out of the darkness of this oppressive society into the light of Islam ..[/FONT]* *By: Sharrifa Carlo
IslamiCity* -*

​ *



*   [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,arial]As a non-Muslim living in Western society, the idea of modesty was not exactly foremost in my mind. Like all other women of my generation and mind-set, I thought such ideas were antiquated and excessive. I felt pity for the poor Muslim woman who had to “wear all that junk,” or “walk around in bed - sheets” as I used to call it [/FONT][/FONT]
 [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,arial]I was a modern woman, educated and liberated. Little did I know the awful truth. I was more oppressed than any Muslim woman in the most culturally oppressive village in the Muslim world. I was oppressed not by an inability to choose my clothing or to choose my life-style, I was oppressed by an inability to see my society for what it really was. I was oppressed by the idea that a woman’s beauty was public, and that lustful admiration was equal to respect. [/FONT][/FONT]
 [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,arial]It was when Allah guided me to Islam, and I put on the hijab, that I was finally able to step out of the society in which I lived and see it for what it really is. I could see how the highest paid women were those who exposed themselves to public display, like actresses, models and even strip-tease dancers. I was able to see that the relationship between men and women was unfairly stacked in the man’s direction. I knew I used o dress to attract men. I tried to fool myself by saying I did it to please myself, but the painful reality was that what pleased me was when I was admired by a man I considered attractive. [/FONT][/FONT]
 [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,arial]I was not able to see that I was oppressed until I stepped out of the darkness of this oppressive society into the light of Islam. With the light shinning on the truth, I was finally able to see the shadows that had been so obscured by my Western outlook. It is not oppression to protect yourself and society; it is oppression to voluntarily throw yourself into an unclean social quagmire while thinking that it is the best way of life. [/FONT][/FONT]
 [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,arial]I am grateful to Allah that He allowed me to recognize that when I covered my head, I was taking away from people any means for judging me other than my mind, my soul and my heart. When I covered my head, I took away the incentive for exploitation based on beauty. When I covered my head, I made people respect me because they saw that I respected myself, and when I covered my head, I finally opened my mind to the truth. [/FONT][/FONT]
 [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,arial]One of the factors which attracted me to this great deen of ours was the fact that so much of it can be understood based on logic and reason.  Islam is a great religion that satisfies all of our basic intellectual and emotional needs; it does this simply because it is the truth, and the truth is always easy to understand and defend. 
[/FONT][/FONT]


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2009)

Tejwant Ji,
Gurfateh.

Continuing the idea of Kabir Jis "Imagery..poetic beauty language etc.." in the Tuk Keso Keso kookeah..na soveh asaar !!

Historical Accounts tell us that the Pir of Sadahura..Pir Budhu Shah was a great admirer of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. and he was MUSLIM PIR with thousands of followers in his own right.

1.The Muslim PIR together with his 700 or so murids fought agaisnt the MUGHAL MUSLIM armies, on the side of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and His Sikhs.

2. The Pir lost his FOUR SONS in the Battle of Bhnagganni. He also lost more than few hundred of his murids. As far as the Sikhs are concerned these too are all SHAHEEDS on par with all the others and the SIKHS who died fighting for Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

3. Now is the interesting part...Guru Ji informs the Pir that He is Greatly pleased and thankful for his help and he can ask anything hsi heart desires. Now the PIR can ask for WEALTH...GOLD..Horses..weapons...BUT WHAT DOES HE ASK of the GURU in utter HUMILITY ??
The PIR humbly requests the GURU GIFT him the KANGHA and also the Few strands of His KESH that are stuck in the Kangha.

4. Now the 2 cent question here is...the Pir who just martyred four flesh and blood SONS...and several hundred followers... would want with a "wooden kangha and a few broken hairs" ?? He is a MUSLIM...a PIR of high standing...and NOT in any way "attached to KESH/KANGHA" in any way whatsoever !! He could ahve had virtually "ANYTHING"....BUT all he wants is the KANGHA/KESH as a NISHANEE/GIFT form his BELOVED !! 

5. What Beautiful IMAGERY....the Guru combing his long flowing beautiful HAIRS....taking the Kangha through and through....and the Muslim Pir standing before the GURU with folded hands BEGGING...for the KANGHA/KESH....What wouldnt MILLIONS of His KHALSA do TODAY iF faced with the SAME ?? The EXACT same thing they always did....NO WAY are we Doing away with KESH. Was this the Gurus way of leaving behind his KANGHA/KESH..for POSTERITY....otherwise we wouldnt have His nishanee and its IMPORTANCE...in the world of Imagination..imagery..flowery language..etc etc.

Some ideas herein contributed by my brilliant co-researcher: Jasbir Kaur Thind. Acknowledged gratefully.

Cordially and Respectfully

Jarnail Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 16, 2009)

Jarnail Singh ji 
Kabir is talking about Ram in that shabad. This is clear when you read how he starts it off.
Ram has always been shown to have long hair so its sort of obvious why Kabir would mention such a thing.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Jarnail Singh ji
> Kabir is talking about Ram in that shabad. This is clear when you read how he starts it off.
> Ram has always been shown to have long hair so its sort of obvious why Kabir would mention such a thing.



Bhagat Singh Ji,

Yes he is talking about Ram...BUT we all know that the RAAM he actually want us to follow is the CREATOR and NOT the Son of Dasarth. The Son of dasrath is the Raam that cried when he was separated from Sita...as Guru teg bahadur Ji states in his sloks..while the KESO RAAM the Creator si beyond such...


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 16, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Mohinder Sahni ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Ji, Since you were referring to Kabir Ji salok wherein kabir ji is depicting the beauty and or one of the virtue of God. My take is that peotic imagery is not related with Hindu god’s but His liking and our effort to please Him accordingly in that form. As Gurbani tells us, ‘*ey mn jYsw syvih qYsw hovih qyhy krm kmwie ]*Prof. Sahib interpretes this pankti like this ,’ hy (myry) mn! qUM ijho ijhy dI syvw-BgqI kryNgw, auho ijhy krm kmw ky auho bx jwieˆgw [ (pRBU dI rzw ivc ieh inXm hY ik jIv ny ies krm-BUmI srIr ivc) Awp bIj ky Awp hI (aus dw) Pl Kwxw huMdw hY [ ies dI aulMGxw nhIN kIqI jw skdI

Rest of part Giani Ji has elborated.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 16, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh Ji,
> 
> Yes he is talking about Ram...BUT we all know that the RAAM he actually want us to follow is the CREATOR and NOT the Son of Dasarth. The Son of dasrath is the Raam that cried when he was separated from Sita...as Guru teg bahadur Ji states in his sloks..while the KESO RAAM the Creator si beyond such...


OK
Ram, the son of dashrath is percieved to be the embodiment of God by Hindus.
Ram, the son of dasrath is shown with long hair. 
Kabir is talking to Hindus i.e. he is addressing a certain issue or whatever... to Hindus.
Kabir is essentially refferring to the embodiment of God whom is percieved with long hair.

Now Kabir's shabad with this perpestive has been taken out of that social context and has been placed in SGGS.
In SGGS, we say that God is essentially, abstract, without form. 
So when Kabir's words are placed in this context; the description of this embodiment of God, loses its meaning. The phrase "long-haired Lord" is meaningless in the context of SGGS. 

Another scenario.
Suppose Kabir imagines this God with long hair. And he simply states that to a general audience. 
But SGGS teaches us that God has all attributes and no attributes. So God could have long hair and could also have no hair. 
That implies that Kabir has his own perspective of God. God is how Kabir describes him and he isn't how kabir describes him. Whatever Kabir says is what he thinks of God.
The phrase long-haired is ambiguous because it begs the question: How long?
If I had a shaved head, a hair that is one centimeter in length is long to me. 
But if I have a head full of hair that are more than a meter long. A head full of one centimeter long hair is next to a shaved head. 
So now must we look at how long Kabirs hair were to try to understand what he means by long hair.
Also, he says LONG hair not uncut hair, which are completely different things. Uncut hair could possible be long but long hair don't have to be uncut. 

You see this type of discussion is not going to lead to answering the unknown (the question about hairs) because it simply replaces one thing that is not known by something else that is equally not known.
You've said that we should see the importance of such a descriptions when you state:


> why the need to describe his LORD as the one with long flowing beautiful hair..and why the need to use the word KOOK (Shout) about it...


Why should we look at one description when there are countless other "descriptions" saying you cannot describe him. Is this a contradiction? If not then it clearly shows that the way God is described with a form DOES NOT matter! Sikh Gurus did not give a hoot about how Kabir described God, what they did give a hoot about is *what he taught and what values he brought into society!*
What matter are the improvements in society and self, that is what SGGS teaches and focuses on.

So now lets get back to the issue of hair without making references to descriptions of God. 


Tony Ji to you I must apologise. In trying to answer what Jarnail Singh ji keeps bringing up, I went back to his and my posts and realized that you were questioning what you think are my set of beliefs without realizing that I don't hold those beliefs.


> Dear Bhagat Singh ji
> How can one describe God with long flowing hair when God is beyond description. Has the Hukam ever been verified and who by, If I dont ask questions how can I find answers. And I do try to follow the Gurus teachings as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji. Btw you seem to have all the answers a little bit of I know may be. and I thought it was supposed to be Gods servant not the Gurus slave. you have made your choice please allow me to make mine based on the truth. An identity creates ego, leave it with you to think about
> Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24540
> Tony


I believe I have both answered your question and clarified my beliefs.
But please reconsider those posts as I have not changed my argument. I believe you HAVE missed vital details in my post. I believe my post with the passages is bit confusing as my views are sort of jumbled in with the passages. That is, they don't stand out and one's eye may skip right through them. I cannot edit my post now but try to read this thoroughly http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98163.
Then report back immediately with any concerns you may have. 


Again, I state that let's continue with the discussion and Q&A, without bringing in different descriptions of God.


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## tony (Apr 16, 2009)

Dear Singh ji 
I have read the above essay and thank you so much. I believe it has answered all of my questions. 
It has told why we where given them, it has also told how we should think of them, and also the importance of them in today's modern society. You see Singh ji when some one informs with answers the questions stop, when some one just says because I said the answer why will keep coming. So i have learnt a lot from the essay, may be you have learnt how to answer the question without being to authoritative, Any way I now have all the answers i need, Thank you so kindly Singh ji 
Thank you to all who have tried to help me. All have help in some way
Respect to all 
Tony


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2009)

GOOD..NOW WE FINALLY REACH THE END OF THE ROAD ?? QUESTIONS ANSWERED.
NOW TO FOLLOW AND STOP CUTTING HAIR....OR ?? A ROAD WELL TRAVELLED...LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL....WE CAN MOVE ON.....SPN COMMUNITY HAS TRIUMPHED !! CONGRATS TO ALL.

BHAGAT SINGH JI..YOU ARE WELCOME TO YOUR CONVULSIONS..I SURRENDER. SO PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I DONT REPLY AS I SEE NO SENSE IN DIVERETING MY ENERGIES IN THAT DIRECTION. TO ME CREATOR IS BOTH BALD AND WITH LONG FLOWING HAIR..I WANT HIM WITH LONG FLOWING HAIR NEATLY TIED IN A DASTAAR.:welcome:HAVE A NICE DAY.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 16, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Tejwant Ji,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> Continuing the idea of Kabir Jis "Imagery..poetic beauty language etc.." in the Tuk Keso Keso kookeah..na soveh asaar !!
> ...


 
Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am sorry if I was not able to express myself better in my post. I did not talk about not keeping hair in the post. I just talked about how Kabir ji imagines God with long hair and the fact is that imagery comes from Hindu Gods who all had long hair. 

And also the fact is that Ik Ong Kaar is described as formless,genderless, timeless Creative Energy as described by Guru Nanak in Mool Manter. 

I also said that our Gurus kept long hair and wore turbans in many of my posts and the followers must have emulated them to do the same. 

Thanks for the beautiful Sakhi. People showed their love towards our Gurus in all different kinds of ways because our Gurus practiced what they preached i.e. as the Gurbani says, " I see no stranger, I feel no enmity". I hope we, as Sikhs can cultivate the same trait in us. It is our duty to do so. Gurbani demands that from us.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear Singh ji
> I have read the above essay and thank you so much. I believe it has answered all of my questions.
> It has told why we where given them, it has also told how we should think of them, and also the importance of them in today's modern society. You see Singh ji when some one informs with answers the questions stop, when some one just says because I said the answer why will keep coming. So i have learnt a lot from the essay, may be you have learnt how to answer the question without being to authoritative, Any way I now have all the answers i need, Thank you so kindly Singh ji
> Thank you to all who have tried to help me. All have help in some way
> ...


 
Take care Tony, there is no point on beating the dead horse.  The word of Guru Sahib is enough for me.


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## tony (Apr 16, 2009)

Dear Gyani ji
You speak of triump, But to triump has a need to fight in the first place, I wasnt fighting just asking, My need to know was to stop me from just wearing something that I knew nothing about, there are many who do wear the Five K's and have absolutely no knowledge of why or what theyre for, is that what you would prefer me to do. There are also many who wear these just as a fashion statement. many who think they are the be all and end all of Sikhism. I have no wish to be one of these Sikhs. My intial question when I started the thread was what they were for, why did Guru ji give us them and how where they used in every day life. the answers given where along the linesof Guru ji gave us them. some explain what they where for, but many tried to use the SGGS to justify them, many tried to describe God as having long hair, not of these sort of answers meant anything, So I  expanded to how do individual members use them, only a very few answered with there own personal reasons, No one can dispute a personal reason and the essay that Singh ji finally posted gave all the answers, What they are for, why they where given and how they should be thought of today, No foolish notion that God had long hair, No just saying that Guru ji gave us them, no quoting Gurbani and no just saying to aid spirituality. So if you wish to talk of triump who did triump, SPN community, Or the seeker of the truth. I claim no victory just that I have found out the answer to my questions and hopefully help others by asking the question. The stumbling block that many have said I have is gone, The one I thought least likely to remove it, Did it. I have no wish to be rude but no one can learn from misquoted/ Twisted use of Gurbani, False descriptions of God. only the truth will answer questions if you dont want the same question to keep coming back. Had Id just accepted these sort of answers I would not know the truth when my children ask why, and what sort of fool would I look when they discovered why. I have much respect for you Gyani ji knowing your knowledge of Gurbani is a thousand times mine, I ask that you use it wisely and remember to quote it in the context it is meant. Remember if a student finds the truth elsewhere his respect for you falls.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear Gyani ji
> You speak of triump, But to triump has a need to fight in the first place, I wasnt fighting just asking, My need to know was to stop me from just wearing something that I knew nothing about, there are many who do wear the Five K's and have absolutely no knowledge of why or what theyre for, is that what you would prefer me to do. There are also many who wear these just as a fashion statement. many who think they are the be all and end all of Sikhism. I have no wish to be one of these Sikhs. My intial question when I started the thread was what they were for, why did Guru ji give us them and how where they used in every day life. the answers given where along the linesof Guru ji gave us them. some explain what they where for, but many tried to use the SGGS to justify them, many tried to describe God as having long hair, not of these sort of answers meant anything, So I expanded to how do individual members use them, only a very few answered with there own personal reasons, No one can dispute a personal reason and the essay that Singh ji finally posted gave all the answers, What they are for, why they where given and how they should be thought of today, No foolish notion that God had long hair, No just saying that Guru ji gave us them, no quoting Gurbani and no just saying to aid spirituality. So if you wish to talk of triump who did triump, SPN community, Or the seeker of the truth. I claim no victory just that I have found out the answer to my questions and hopefully help others by asking the question. The stumbling block that many have said I have is gone, The one I thought least likely to remove it, Did it. I have no wish to be rude but no one can learn from misquoted/ Twisted use of Gurbani, False descriptions of God. only the truth will answer questions if you dont want the same question to keep coming back. Had Id just accepted these sort of answers I would not know the truth when my children ask why, and what sort of fool would I look when they discovered why. I have much respect for you Gyani ji knowing your knowledge of Gurbani is a thousand times mine, I ask that you use it wisely and remember to quote it in the context it is meant. Remember if a student finds the truth elsewhere his respect for you falls.


 
All these hidden messages and on top of it disrespecting a respected member shows that you learned nothing from this discussion.  This foolish post by you is a new low.  Your on the outside trying to look in.  This is no way to learn Sikhi.

The reasons that were given were valid for Gursikhs that were martyred in 84 and in the 17 and 18 century.  They understood it was Guru Sahib Hukam and PERIOD!


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2009)

Singh ji

 An important statement.


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## tony (Apr 16, 2009)

Singh ji
No where have I insulted Gyani ji, I have asked that he along with others dont mislead with the use of gurbani. The SGGS has nothing in it to support nor disprove the use of Five K's nor does it describe God it the context it has been used in this thread. You are as always out to insult, you call me an outsider because I express an opinion yet you are allowed to express yours.  all you ever wish to do is argue and insult. Grow up and if Gyani thinks what i have said insults him, let him speak for him self. Hidden messages = twisted Gurbani PERIOD
TONY
Ps just seen your message Antonia ji what was the important message, it relates to no more than an insult. it ok on this forum for amritdharis to insult. its the only message I get. Image me telling my children that I keep kesh cause God had it, at the age of nine my son would laugh at me. Nine yrs old and even he born of an outsider knows God has no form, whos insulting who. BIG FAT PERIOD END OF.


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2009)

tony ji

The thinking behind my remark. Were you insulting Singh ji? At times your sarcasm is barely disguised. Who exactly has answered your questions to your satisfaction? Why should an explanation for the 5 K's be correct only if it suits you? Members of a faith do not have to satisfy in this regard. Why do orthodox Jews wear head-coverings? Why do Roman Catholics wear ashes on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday? They have answers. But their answers do not have to meet with the approval of another party in order to be deemed acceptable by that person. Think it through.:welcome:


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## Admin (Apr 16, 2009)

Singh Ji, please learn to speak up for your own self. Gyaniji will judge for himself whether he was insulted or not. and he can deal with this aptly. Thank you.

Tony Ji, i thought you were grown up. Stop ranting that this forum is not fair. Hardly anything has been edited/deleted of what you have said so far. If this isn't fair then i am sorry, this is all SPN can offer to you. Its not a matter of somebody being a Amritdhari or not? If your conscience allows you to insult others then you can do it as well. Start insulting others to press upon your point.  We can not spoofed everybody to behave in matured manner... can we? Everytime a member insults fellow member, he is undermining his own credibility and not the other way around.

A simple analogy:

Do we consider Adi Granth Sahib ji as the eternal Guru of Sikhs? if yes, then we follow what Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked us do.

Do we consider Guru Gobind Singh ji as Sikh Guru? if yes, then we follow Him/His Orders/His commandment or we not? 

Do we consider 5Ks as the Order of Guru Gobind Singh ji? if not, then we do not consider Guru Gobind Singh Ji as own Guru/Master.

If we do not consider Guru Gobind Singh ji as our Guru? if yes, then we do not consider Guru Granth Sahib ji as our Guru.

Can we be pick and choosy?


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## G. SINGH (Apr 16, 2009)

there is definatly a purpose behind keeping your hair, it first of all helps with your spirtuality meditation and thats why its has been widely recognised even by great bhagats like raam ji, even pictures of jesus show him with long hair.. i suppose there are many arguments against and for keeping your hair, Guru nanak dev ji maharaj said to bhai mardana that there were 3 conditions he would have to keep if he wanted to acompany him with his travels, 1. was to keep his hair 2. was to tie a paag and not a hat 3. was to wake up at amrit vela and do naam simran...but ulitimatly it comes down to pure faith. our gurus did all the hard work for us unlike many other religions, all we have to do is follow them and we will see and feel the benefits. you can try and read bani do naam simran and everything else with your hair cut and it will not have the same effect as if you keep your hair...the only real way you will know is if you try it.. i hope i havent offended any one i have limited knowledge as i havent been a singh for long.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> Singh Ji, please learn to speak up for your own self. Gyaniji will judge for himself whether he was insulted or not. and he can deal with this aptly. Thank you.
> 
> Tony Ji, i thought you were grown up. Stop ranting that this forum is not fair. Hardly anything has been edited/deleted of what you have said so far. If this isn't fair then i am sorry, this is all SPN can offer to you. Its not a matter of somebody being a Amritdhari or not? If your conscience allows you to insult others then you can do it as well. Start insulting others to press upon your point.  We can not spoofed everybody to behave in matured manner... can we? Everytime a member insults fellow member, he is undermining his own credibility and not the other way around.
> 
> ...


 
Okay Aman Singh ji, I'll learn how to stand up for myself.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2009)

G. SINGH said:


> there is definatly a purpose behind keeping your hair, it first of all helps with your spirtuality meditation and thats why its has been widely recognised even by great bhagats like raam ji, even pictures of jesus show him with long hair.. i suppose there are many arguments against and for keeping your hair, Guru nanak dev ji maharaj said to bhai mardana that there were 3 conditions he would have to keep if he wanted to acompany him with his travels, 1. was to keep his hair 2. was to tie a paag and not a hat 3. was to wake up at amrit vela and do naam simran...but ulitimatly it comes down to pure faith. our gurus did all the hard work for us unlike many other religions, all we have to do is follow them and we will see and feel the benefits. you can try and read bani do naam simran and everything else with your hair cut and it will not have the same effect as if you keep your hair...the only real way you will know is if you try it.. i hope i havent offended any one i have limited knowledge as i havent been a singh for long.


 
Welcome to the forum G Singh.

You haven't offended anyone.  Some just find speaking the Truth insulting. They'll be like this :}--}:, but just be like this


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

Tony,

Guru Fateh.

As you always value my 2 cent worth more that it is for which I do appreciate, please bare with me here for one more 2 cent worth from my side.

I am sure you believe in SGGS and its teachings, that is why you call yourself a Sikh, a learner, a seeker, a student. So I would like you to pick any Shabad of your own choice and share with us its message. Let us interact on that. Then you can share other Shabads of your liking with us. Once we start that together then you will see how much more  you have to offer as a Sikh through Gurbani and Gurmat ideals, hence all of us will get enriched.

Waiting for  your expression and elaboration of a Shabad/s from SGGS from you because we all know you have a lot to offer to us  and educate us from your viewpoint about Sikhi.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

Pk70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

Your write:



> *I beg to differ with your theory of “Rahao” here.*


 
You mean RAHAO has no factual significance in SGGS? Why did our Gurus add RAHAO in almost all the Shabads in your opinion if it is only a theory? Can you please shine some Gurmat light about your claiming that RAHAO being a thoery. I did not claim that. I said the following about RAHAO in my post,

_"We all know that RAHAO is the nectar of the whole Shabad and it gives us the main idea what this Shabad is all about. The rest of the verses of any Shabad compliment RAHAO. As urged by Gyani ji and many others, that all of us who express our viewpoints with the help of Gurbani, must give the complete Shabad and especially share the meaning of RAHAO."_

So as you can see, I presented no theory just an understanding about it. You can also check the post that Gyani ji wrote about the importance of RAHAO he mentioned in it for your own clarifications. But if you claim it is only a theory, I would love to hear that from your Gurmat wisdom
It is ok to differ. As you have a theory about RAHAO, I thought you would express your theory. As you did not, let me ask you.

What is your theory of RAHAO based on SGGS. Please enlighten us with your Gurmat knowledge. 



> *Any one even the one who is just a beginner can understand that the quotes I have given are questions and answers*


. 

You are right. I am not as learned about Gurmat as you admit you are. That is the reason I ask you questions like these about your posts so that I may be able to catch a spark or 2 from the Gurmat knowledge that sparkles through you and your posts. Let me also confess one more thing that once I reach that beginners' stage that according to you, I have not yet, I would love to remain a beginner for the rest of my life. I do not want this learning process to end ever. I apologise for not understanding the questions and answers which in my viewpoint have nothing to do with your not giving the whole Shabad as requested by Antonia ji and Gyani Ji and others including myself, which is only fair thing to ask especially to a person like you who is drenched with Gurmat knowledge.



> *The Rahao gave in this bani has nothing to do with the process of questioning in particular.*


 
If Rahao has nothing to do with the Shabad whose part you are talking about then, please share your Gurmat wisdom, why is it there?



> *Rahao inserts Guru ji’s own views about Him in Sidhgost( that’s why it’s one time only in the beginning). *


 
Your above statement seems a bit confusing. Can you elaborate what do you mean by the above? Only when you explain your theory about RAHAO in a Shabad, perhaps it may help. So I am waiting for that so even a beginner like me can understand the depth of your comment.

Normally there is only one RAHAO in the Shabad. When there is more than one which is true in some cases, then it is written as RAHAO Duja ( Second Rahao).

I am sure you are aware that Sukhmani Sahib also has one RAHAO.

ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
Sukẖmanī sukẖ amriṯ parabẖ nām. 
Sukhmani: Peace of Mind, the Nectar of the Name of God. 

ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bẖagaṯ janā kai man bisrām. Rahā▫o. 
The minds of the devotees abide in a joyful peace. ||Pause|| 



> *What I have given are not a partial verses as per your theory riddled with your own assumption that points at me. These two Guru Vaakas stand alone due to the contest of the question and given answer*.


 
Well, I am sorry to say you are incorrect here. You did give the partial verses and what is this theory you keep on talking about? Can you elaborate on it in a practical way?

Following are the full verses, the literal translations by Bhai Manmohan Singh and then by Sant Singh Khlasa. You have used the word *Hermit* like Bhai Manmohan Singh used. Can you also elaborate on the word in context with the Shabad. According to the Dictionary Hermit means a recluse not a wanderer.


Following are the full verses, the literal translations by Bhai Manmohan Singh and then by Sant Singh Khlasa. You have used the word Hermit like Bhai Manmohan Singh used.

*Bhai Manmohan Singh *


_*Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī. *_
_*(Ask the Yogis) Q. 23: What is the reason that forsaking thy home thou hast become a hermit? *_

_*Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī. *_
_*Q. 24: What is the reason that thou hast adopted this dress? *_

*Your partial Verse stops here.*

_Kis vakẖar ke ṯum vaṇjāre. _
_Q. 25: Of what merchandise art thou the customer? _

_Ki▫o kar sāth langẖāvahu pāre. ||17|| _
_Q. 26: How shalt thou ferry across thy sect? _

*Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī. *
*(Answers the Guru) A. 23: In search of the saints I have become a hermit. *

*Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī. *
*A. 24: For the sake of the Lord's vision, I have adopted this costume. *

*Your partial Verse stops here.*

_Sācẖ vakẖar ke ham vaṇjāre. _
_A. 25: I am the trader of the true merchandise. _

_Nānak gurmukẖ uṯras pāre. ||18|| _
_A. 26: Nanak, through the Guru's grace I shall ferry across_

So now you can check for yourself  and also the Sadh Sangat can do the same that both verses 17 & 18 are incomplete verses posted by you, the point Antonia ji also made when she posted the complete verses in her post.

*Sant Singh Khalsa*

_Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī. _
_Why have you left your house and become a wandering Udaasee? _

_Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī. _
_Why have you adopted these religious robes? _

_Kis vakẖar ke ṯum vaṇjāre. _
_What merchandise do you trade? _

_Ki▫o kar sāth langẖāvahu pāre. ||17|| _
_How will you carry others across with you?" ||17|| _

_Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī. _
_I became a wandering Udaasee, searching for the Gurmukhs. _

_Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī. _
_I have adopted these robes seeking the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan. _

_Sācẖ vakẖar ke ham vaṇjāre. _
_I trade in the merchandise of Truth. _

_Nānak gurmukẖ uṯras pāre. ||18|| _
_O Nanak, as Gurmukh, I carry others across. ||18|| _



> *That’s why Dr Sahib Singh too mentions the history while interpreting this part.*


 
Well, He may have mentioned the History while interpreting it but he did not reject the RAHAO verse of this Shabad. Infact he explained it quite well.

This is what he said about RAHAO of this very Shabad:

Prof. Sahib Singh's words translated into English..

Rahao: Pause, Meaning- The main meaning- nectar of this LONG BAANI- SHABAD is in these 2 lines. 

ਕਿਆ ਭਵੀਐ ਸਚਿ ਸੂਚਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਸਾਚ ਸਬਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 938}

PK70 ji, Do you disagree with Prof. Sahib Singh?

Following is the URL where Prof. Sahib says that.

PAGE 938 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan). 


PK70 ji,

We are all here to learn. That is why Guru Sahibs gave us the name Sikhs. I hope to learn a lot from your Gurmat knowledge. So please bear with me and with my questions. As you said, I am not even at the beginners stage yet but with your help, I will get there one day.

So I am waiting for the meaning in your own words of the whole 73 verses of this Shabad so I can learn from your Gurmat knoweldge.

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

“*I beg to differ with your theory of “Rahao” here.( quotePk70)*
You mean RAHAO has no factual significance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Why did our Gurus add RAHAO in almost all the Shabads in your opinion if it is only a theory? Can you please shine some Gurmat light about your claiming that RAHAO being a thoery. I did not claim that. I said the following about RAHAO in my post(Quote Vaheguru Seekr)
*Respected Vaheguru Seekr Ji*
*I can debate with anyone but with people who have no patience to read and comprehend what is said and drag the issue uncalled for by ignoring given facts for personal pleasure. You have been noticed dragging the issue, and that displays you intentions,( I am going to prove it)forgive me I feel it is  not worth  wasting time with you.  Reread my statement**, it says I differ with your theory of Rahao “HERE” it doesn’t say anything  about “Rahao” in context of  whole Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji but you have dragged that in the context of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji anyway. Call me an arrogant or whatever pleases you,  I am not going to take bait you throw to troll any more. Why? I have proved that you ignored the word “Here” and look what you are writing all through your post because of that.*_

"We all know that RAHAO is the nectar of the whole Shabad and it gives us the main idea what this Shabad is all about. The rest of the verses of any Shabad compliment RAHAO. As urged by Gyani ji and many others, that all of us who express our viewpoints with the help of Gurbani, must give the complete Shabad and especially share the meaning of RAHAO."_
*Again you are talking in context of Rahao in context of whole SGGS Ji, and I didn’t say anything about it, my statement was about Rahao only in context of questioning and answering process, and I stated  “the Rahoo used in Sidhgost doesn’t stand with all question and answer-process”.  Remember the word I used in my statement “Here”! That restricts the application of my statement about Rahao but you have dragged it anyway.

*So as you can see, I presented no theory just an understanding about it. You can also check the post that Gyani ji wrote about the importance of RAHAO he mentioned in it for your own clarifications. But if you claim it is only a theory, I would love to hear that from your Gurmat wisdom
*I don’t follow Respected Gyani ji or any scholar with my eyes closed, so  I stress and stand by my statement, in this case the Rahao in Sidhgost doesn’t contribute something particular to each and every question asked and answered. Its just an essence of this Bani in search of Lord.*It is ok and to differ. As you have a theory about RAHAO, I thought you would express your theory. As you did not, let me ask you.
*I differ with your theory of Raho bringing in where it is not applicable here(the context I quoted Guru Verses). I didn’t discuss Sidhgost- Essence but particular questioning* *and answering in context of Historical context.*

What is your theory of RAHAO based on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Please enlighten us with your Gurmat knowledge.
*I don’t have any Rahao theory, in some complete Banis, if it’s used once, it means the essence of the bani lies in there but that doesn’t mean all other ideas  discussed do not go beyond Rahao-essence, I hope you have gone  through JapJi,  Guru ji never used Rahao in it , what will we do there without Rahao? *
*Any one even the one who is just a   beginner can understand that the quotes I have given are questions and   answers[/FONT]* (quote PK70)[/FONT]
        . 

You are right. I am not as learned about Gurmat as you admit you are. That is the reason I ask you questions like these about your posts so that I may be able to catch a spark or 2 from the Gurmat knowledge that sparkles through you and your posts.[/FONT]
*I wish these were your true intentions but unfortunately they are not, just take an example from my statement, I said something about Rahao in context of a particular context but you have dragged it to different way, intentions are crystal clear[/FONT]*
   Let me also confess one more thing that once I reach that beginners' stage that according to you, I have not yet, I would love to remain a beginner for the rest of my life. I do not want this learning process to end ever. I apologise for not understanding the questions and answers which in my viewpoint have nothing to do with your not giving the whole Shabad as requested by Antonia ji and Gyani Ji and others including myself, which is only fair thing to ask especially to a person like you who is drenched with Gurmat knowledge.[/FONT]
*Please don’t try to flatter me, I don’t believe in it at all. And don’t mention contexts which are totally not applicable in my post. What I quoted, for that, not even next Vaak is needed to be quoted. There is a historical question and a factual answer, period.[/FONT]*
  Quote:[/FONT]
*The Rahao gave in this bani has   nothing to do with the process of questioning in particular(quote pk70).[/FONT]*
        If Rahao has nothing to so with the Shabad whose part you are talking about then, please share your Gurmat wisdom, why is it there?[/FONT]
*The part I quoted doesn’t need that Rahao given in the beginning to justify anything.[/FONT]*
  Quote:[/FONT]
*Rahao inserts Guru ji’s own views   about Him in Sidhgost( that’s why it’s one time only in the beginning).(quote   pk70) [/FONT]*
        Your above statement seems a bit confusing. Can you elaborate what do you mean by the above? [/FONT]
* Let me help you here if I can:  Rahao= a word you are talking about. Guru Ji inserts’ own view= Guru ji expresses his personal views in essence, about Him= About the Lord, in Sidhgost= name of a Bani( That’s why it’s one time only in the beginning= What Guru ji wants to say in context of Sidhgost in essence, he said in Rahaoo but doesn't use it another time because answers and questions  cover other things too ) I hope(not sure) now you will understand it.[/FONT]*
  Only when you explain your theory about RAHAO in a Shabad, perhaps it may help. So I am waiting for that so even a beginner like me can understand the depth of your comment.[/FONT]
*You have a theory, you think all questioning and answering in Sidhgost revolves around Rahoo which is incorrect( That is obvious reason of bringing Rahao repeatedly by you), another reason I don’t have such peculiar theory about Rahao. [/FONT]*

Normally there is only one RAHAO in the Shabad. When there is more than one which is in some cases, then it is written as RAHAO Duja ( Second Rahao).[/FONT]
*  You should know This complete Sidhgost is not like an individual Shabad, its “ a complete process of questions and answers” occurred between Guru ji and Yogis. So your comparing it to an individual Shabad proves that you just don’t know what you are talking about
[/FONT]*
I am sure you are aware that Sukhmani Sahib also has one RAHAO.

[/FONT]ਸੁਖਮਨੀਸੁਖਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਪ੍ਰਭਨਾਮੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
[/FONT]Sukẖmanī sukẖ amriṯ parabẖ nām.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]Sukhmani: Peace of Mind, the Nectar of the Name of God.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਭਗਤਜਨਾਕੈਮਨਿਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ॥[/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
[/FONT]Bẖagaṯ janā kai man bisrām. Rahā▫o.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]The minds of the devotees abide in a joyful peace. ||Pause||[/FONT]
*Again, as in above quotes in Sukhmani, this is the essence of Bani but in Sukhmani Guru ji also defines who is Brahamgyani, Who is Sant and those definitions have nothing to do with this Rahao –essence. I just wonder what is going in your mind![/FONT]*
  Quote:[/FONT]
*What I have given are not a   partial verses as per your theory riddled with your own assumption that   points at me. These two Guru Vaakas stand alone due to the contest of the   question and given answer[/FONT]*. (pk70)[/FONT]
        Well, I am sorry to say you are incorrect here. You did give the partial verses.[/FONT]
  Following are the full verses, the literal translations by Bhai Manmohan Singh and then by Sant Singh Khlasa. You have used the word *Hermit* like Bhai Manmohan Singh used. Can you also elaborate on the word in context with the Shabad. According to the Dictionary Hermit means a recluse not a wanderer.
Following are the full verses, the literal translations by Bhai Manmohan Singh and then by Sant Singh Khlasa. You have used the word Hermit like Bhai Manmohan Singh used.
*Bhai Manmohan Singh *
*Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī. *
*(Ask the Yogis) Q. 23: What is the reason that forsaking thy home thou hast become a hermit? *

*Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī. *
*Q. 24: What is the reason that thou hast adopted this dress? *

Your partial Verse stops here.

_Kis vakẖar ke ṯum vaṇjāre. _
_Q. 25: Of what merchandise art thou the customer? _

_Ki▫o kar sāth langẖāvahu pāre. ||17|| _
_Q. 26: How shalt thou ferry across thy sect? _[/FONT]
*Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī. [/FONT]*
*(Answers the Guru) A. 23: In search of the saints I have become a hermit. *

*Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī. *
*A. 24: For the sake of the Lord's vision, I have adopted this costume. *

Your partial Verse stops here.

_Sācẖ vakẖar ke ham vaṇjāre. _
_A. 25: I am the trader of the true merchandise. _

_Nānak gurmukẖ uṯras pāre. ||18|| _
_A. 26: Nanak, through the Guru's grace I shall ferry across(quoteVaheguru seekr Ji)_[/FONT]
*Again, I haven’t quoted partial verses because no next Vaak has anything to do with this question and answer[/FONT]*_.[/FONT]_* These verses stand alone[/FONT]**I don’t need to check its you who are totally confused with “Rahao and complete Shabad” concept. Here is what I posted, lets look at them again[/FONT]*
*“ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਗ੍ਰਿਹੁਤਜਿਓਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਇਹੁਭੇਖੁਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī.Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]*
*In Essence: For what reason did you forsake home to become hermit? For what reason did you adopt that dress?[/FONT]*

*Guru Ji answers those questions[/FONT]*
*ਗਰਮੁਖਿਖੋਜਤਭਏਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**ਦਰਸਨਕੈਤਾਈਭੇਖਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]*
*Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī.Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]* 
*In Essence: In search of Gurmukhas I became hermit, to see them (meet personally) I adopted that dress (of Hermit)[/FONT]*
*“ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਗ੍ਰਿਹੁਤਜਿਓਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਇਹੁਭੇਖੁਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī.Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]*
*In Essence: For what reason did you forsake home to become hermit? For what reason did you adopt that dress?[/FONT]*

*Guru Ji answers those questions[/FONT]*
*ਗਰਮੁਖਿਖੋਜਤਭਏਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**ਦਰਸਨਕੈਤਾਈਭੇਖਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]*
*Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī.Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]* 
*In Essence: In search of Gurmukhas I became hermit, to see them (meet personally) I adopted that dress (of Hermit)”(quote PK70)[/FONT]*
*
Hermit is a kind of sadhu or Faqir in the eyes of general people, you want to call him wanderer, its fine but it doesn’t affect in any way my point posted in context of “Bana”[/FONT]*
*The quotes I have given above carry a question about the dress and an answer of Guru ji with a reason of why he wore it. The next verses you are quoting above carry different question and answer, don’t you see this answer in your quote ( Sach Vakhar ke ham vanjare) has nothing to do with  the dress. In previous Vaak, the question was historical and was answered, a new question about what Guru Ji believes in and what he does for that, expressed in your given quotes. How my quotes are partial then? Are Yogis asking same question in the next Vakaas I left in different words? And does Guru ji answer against the dress in the next one?   Also why we need Rahao to decipher meaning here?[/FONT]*

 [/FONT]
  Quote:[/FONT]
*That’s why Dr Sahib Singh too   mentions the history while interpreting this part.[/FONT]*
        Well, He may have mentioned the History while interpreting it but he did not reject the RAHAO verse of this Shabad. Infact he explained it quite well.[/FONT]
*I have no inkling what you are thinking here again. The reason I mentioned Dr Sahib Singh jI’s mentioning History was to tell you that the verses I quoted contained Historical question, it has nothing to do with Rahao. 
[/FONT]*
This is what he said about RAHAO of this very Shabad:

Prof. Sahib Singh's words translated into English..

Rahao: Pause, Meaning- The main meaning- nectar of this LONG BAANI- SHABAD is in these 2 lines. 
[/FONT]ਕਿਆਭਵੀਐਸਚਿਸੂਚਾਹੋਇ॥[/FONT]ਸਾਚਸਬਦਬਿਨੁਮੁਕਤਿਨਕੋਇ॥[/FONT]੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥[/FONT] {[/FONT]ਪੰਨਾ 938}[/FONT]
*Yes, he says in context of essence of whole Bani, in no way this essence can answer anything related with a Historical question and answer. You are just confused about application of Rahoo, totally.
[/FONT]*
PK70 ji, Do you disagree with Prof. Sahib Singh?[/FONT]
*I wrote before, I agree with him but it’s you who have failed badly to understand him because he doesn’t apply “Rahao” meaning while interpreting Historical question and answer. If you look at Rahao Verses, there is no mention of the dress  Guru Ji wore that Bana historically,  in Rahao actually it’s against those who wander around like Yogis in search of God  because Guru Ji was not concerned with a dress in this context but with his own views in context of searching Lord.
 [/FONT]*

PK70 ji,

We are all here to learn.[/FONT]
*I disagree; there are some who just are here to troll. Why? When they ignore given facts and keep dragging the issue, there is no intention to learn, obviously.[/FONT]*
   That is why Guru Sahibs gave us the name Sikhs. [/FONT]
*Yes but it doesn’t mean all of us measure up to that standard.[/FONT]*
  I hope to learn a lot from your Gurmat wisdom.[/FONT]
*As I stated earlier, Gurmat is not what people say but you differ with me and all you think or others say become Gurmat for you, thats fine.  For me,  strictly what Gurbani teaches, is Gurmat, period. So again I disagree with your statement[/FONT]*.[/FONT]
   So please bear with me with my questions. As you said, I am not even at the beginners stage yet but with your hlp, I will get there one day.[/FONT]
*I didn’t call you a beginner I gave you an example of a beginner[/FONT]**(obviously it pinched you), Sorry if it really did.[/FONT]**.
[/FONT]*
So I am waiting for the meaning in your own words of the whole 73 verses of this Shabad so I can learn fro your Gurmat knoweldge.[/FONT]
*Sorry, I have already interpreted and explained what was important, the interpretation of whole 73 verses is not child’s play that I should do it on your request, when my beloved Master inspires me, I would do it and put on SPN.
[/FONT]*
Thanks & Regards[/FONT]
*Thanks regards[/FONT]*
*PK70[/FONT]*


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

Pk 70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. The facts speak for themselves. You can deny whatever you want as you did in your posts and be argumentative as usual. Your tone in your response does not bewilder me anymore.

I said:

"You are right. I am not as learned about Gurmat as you admit you are. That is the reason I ask you questions like these about your posts so that I may be able to catch a spark or 2 from the Gurmat knowledge that sparkles through you and your posts."




> *I wish these were your true intentions but unfortunately they are not, just take an example from my statement, I said something about Rahao in context of a particular context but you have dragged it to different way, intentions are crystal clear[/FONT]*
> 
> [/FONT]


 
You have tried to play God earlier in your posts as well and you are doing the same now. One wonders why you feel this desperate need to play Ik Ong Kaar!

PK70 ji, FYI Only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at and what their true intentions are. You will never find that out, no matter how much to try to pretend to play HIM.

I said:

"This is what he said about RAHAO of this very Shabad:

Prof. Sahib Singh's words translated into English..

Rahao: Pause, Meaning- The main meaning- nectar of this LONG BAANI- SHABAD is in these 2 lines. 
ਕਿਆਭਵੀਐਸਚਿਸੂਚਾਹੋਇ॥[/FONT]ਸਾਚਸਬਦਬਿਨੁਮੁਕਤਿਨਕੋਇ॥[/FONT]੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥[/FONT] {[/FONT]ਪੰਨਾ 938}"[/FONT]
*



Yes, he says in context of essence of whole Bani, in no way this essence can answer anything related with a Historical question and answer. You are just confused about application of Rahoo, totally.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]* 
Once again, let me explain what Prof. Sahib Singh said. He is talking about this very Shabad whose partial tuks you tried to explain. The URL is given in my post.

I said:

"So please bear with me with my questions. As you said, I am not even at the beginners stage yet but with your hlp, I will get there one day."

*



I didn’t call you a beginner I gave you an example of a beginner[/FONT](obviously it pinched you), Sorry if it really did.[/FONT].[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*[/FONT]

Once again you feel the need to play God. You above statement shows that. No, you did not pinch me. I am not offended by these petty remarks. It shows more about a person who is making them. But your own attitude when questioned shows the whole different story. 

*



Any one even the one who is just a beginner can understand that the quotes I have given are questions and answers (quote PK70)[/FONT]
		
Click to expand...

* 
So who is asking these questions stating that I did not understand what you are talking about? It is me.

As I said, the facts about giving half tuks and your denying what Prof. Sahib Singh wrote about the RAHAO of this very Shabad say a lot.

Thanks once again for the elaborate response.

I do appreciate that.

Tejwant Singh

[/FONT]


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Pk 70 ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




*Waheguru Seekr Jio

 NO, thanks for the bait as I promised I shall not take it, thanks for the try though.*

*Regards
pk70
*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

Some people here just like picking fights for no reason.:whisling::whisling::whisling:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

Guur Piayario Jios,

For what its worth...there are Tuks and panktees that DO STAND ALONE. The ones based on Question/Answer for example in Sidh Ghost are examples.
RAHAO is used where Guru Ji discusses contemporary thoughts/theories/popularly accepted myths etc and the GURU MATT VIEW is reinforced in the RAHAO tuks.
This is where Leaving out the RAHAO ( GURU MATT) is widely practised because then that leaves the OPPOSITE views..the myths/the theories/popular beleifs etc to be misrepesentingly presented as *GURBANI SANCTIONED*..."by just being there" *SEE GURBANI SAYS SO* !!!..while what GURU MATT actually REFUTES THEM in THE RAHAO TUKS... is conveneintly left oUT. That is the rationale behind the *COMPLETE SHABAD INCLUDING RAHAO* to get the complete picture and NOT a distorted one.
I havent found any attempt at distortion/misrepresentation in these posts above.


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

Guur Piayario Jios,

For what its worth...there are Tuks and panktees that DO STAND ALONE. The ones based on Question/Answer for example in Sidh Ghost are examples.
RAHAO is used where Guru Ji discusses contemporary thoughts/theories/popularly accepted myths etc and the GURU MATT VIEW is reinforced in the RAHAO tuks.(quotes Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji)*

Thanks  Respected Gyani ji for grasping "standing alone"  tuks in that context, and in fact understanding the concept of  Rahao and its application so quickly*, *I admire such understanding.*.

*Regards 
G Singh*


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guur Piayario Jios,
> 
> For what its worth...there are Tuks and panktees that DO STAND ALONE. The ones based on Question/Answer for example in Sidh Ghost are examples.
> RAHAO is used where Guru Ji discusses contemporary thoughts/theories/popularly accepted myths etc and the GURU MATT VIEW is reinforced in the RAHAO tuks.
> ...


 
Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let us agree to disagree. I agree with Prof Sahib Singh regarding the significance of RAHAO of this particular  Shabad as mentioned by him. 

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 18, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guur Piayario Jios,
> 
> For what its worth...there are Tuks and panktees that DO STAND ALONE. The ones based on Question/Answer for example in Sidh Ghost are examples.
> RAHAO is used where Guru Ji discusses contemporary thoughts/theories/popularly accepted myths etc and the GURU MATT VIEW is reinforced in the RAHAO tuks.
> ...


 
Gyani ji,

Guru fateh.

One more thing I forgot to mention that if the partial tuks mentioned above STOOD ALONE, as you mentioned above, then there would be 146 tuks rather than the original 73. So I trust our Guru Nanak's vision and reasoning for writing them the way he did and I respect his decision to number them as he did. Now a person can think anyway to justify one's point of view. Guru Nanak knew better when he numbered the tuks and what he meant by that, and what significance he gave when added RAHAO - the nectar of the shabad-to this long SHABAD. 

I am in no way to question his wisdom. We all know the way SGGS is written and numbered so it can not be altered at will, but as I mentioned before, lets agree to disagree. Gurbani speaks for itself.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 18, 2009)

The entire shabad must be posted, Gurmukhi and English, with Ang numbes. Exceptions to this rule will be determined by the moderation team.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 18, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Aad Ji; I am posting it second time and hope it meets the criteria;
> 
> ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਰਬ ਸੇਤੀ ਦੇਖਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ਰੰਗਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਚੁਪ ਭੀ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ਪਰਵਾਹ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਾਝੁ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਹ ॥ਦਰਿ ਵਾਟ ਉਪਰਿ ਖਰਚੁ ਮੰਗਾ ਜਬੈ ਦੇਇ ਤ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਦੀਬਾਨੁ ਏਕੋ ਕਲਮ ਏਕਾ ਹਮਾ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ਦਰਿ ਲਏ ਲੇਖਾ ਪੀੜਿ ਛੁਟੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਉ ਤੇਲੁ ॥੨॥
> 
> ...


 
Just a note this shabad above is not saying the 5 k's are useless or anything along these lines.  Guru Sahib is speaking about duality and outward show here and how people fall victim to it by not purifying within.

If you are looking for a shabad that speaks on the 5 k's/ Khalsa then read Anand Sahib where Guru Sahib speaks about inwardly pure and outwardly pure.

Thanks 
Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 18, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear all
> I have been on the forum for several years now and joined to find answers, Alot have been aswered but the one that still remains unanswered is the five K's. When I've seen threads on this topic Ive read them with interest but still no one has ever answered it, Many have tried but still no real answer. the hair one seems to always be that its a Hukam but no one says why Guru Gobing Singh ji gave it and the same with the rest of them. Nine Guru ji's didnt say we needed them, one did, Its not in the SGGS ji, Ive been told that untill I accept them it will be a stumbling block to my spirituality, But why. I'm told that I cant be a full Sikh till I have them, Why. Could some one please tell me what each one is for and why Guru Gobing Singh ji thought that we needed them and to what purpose they serve to day please.
> Tony


 



Dear Tony Ji,

I was going through the thread and saw that no one has answered your valid question. Reason being the answer you want is not there.

Let me try it as Sikh symbols stand for;

1. Sikh History.
2. Identity.
3. Sikh Politics.
4. Sikh Faith.

There will always be some tension between those committed to finding the truth about 5 K’s in a reasonably understanding way in the present and those with inherited understanding, who wants to preserve their blind religious way. This challenge has to be dealt with human maturity in a constructive and creative way with the younger generation in Diaspora, who will not blindly accept any thing presented to them.

ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਸਿ ਰਹੇ ॥ ਭੇਖੁ ਭਵਨੀ ਹਠੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਗਹਿ ਰਹੇ ॥
_Mai avar gi&shy;ān na __ḏẖi&shy;ān pūjā har nām an__ṯar vas rahė. B__ẖėk__ẖ b__ẖavnī ha__ṯẖ na jānā nānkā sac__ẖ geh rahė. _

I have no other spiritual wisdom, meditation or worship; the Name of the Akal Purkh alone dwells deep within me. I know nothing about religious robes, pilgrimages or stubborn fanaticism; O Nanak, I hold tight to the Truth. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 844-1

I am still arrogant, self-righteous, with no humility, even phony at times, but trying to make an honest attempt to become a better person and help my fellow men. I may be one person in the world, but whom I help; I may be the world for him/her. Sikh Faith instills humility in us to serve a greater cause than ourselves. It reminds us of our common humanity and our essentials of equality in it and sees us through life’s trials.

It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help. ~Author Unknown.

Guess, what I will never be a saint, but what ever I am I believe in accepting to humbly live under the Will of God considering myself lowest of the low. 

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਨੀਚੁ ਆਤਮ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਉ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਇਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਧਾਰਉ ॥
_Sab__ẖ__ṯė nīc__ẖ ā__ṯam kar mān¬o man meh ih suk__ẖ__ḏẖāra¬o. _

I judge myself to be the lowest of all; in this way, I instill peace within my mind. -----Guru Arjan Dev, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 532-2

*ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਹਉ ਨਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਿ ਨ ਮੋਰਾ**॥** ਅਉਸਰ ਲਜਾ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਧਨਾ ਜਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ**॥*
_Mai Naahi Kuch How Nahee Kich Aah Na Mora, Aousar Lajaa Raakh Layh Sadhna Jan Tora._

I am nothing, I have nothing, and nothing belongs to me. Now, protect my honor; Sadhana is Your humble servant.-----Bhagat Sadhana, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 858-17

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 18, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> 
> I am saying myself that I am not clean from inside-what more you want.
> 
> ...


 
Virinder, what does wanting have to do here, we are discussing.  There is no need to get upset.  You misunderstood my post and I explained it to you.  Don't shot the messenger.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 18, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Tony Ji,
> 
> I was going through the thread and saw that no one has answered your valid question. Reason being the answer you want is not there.
> 
> ...


 


> I was going through the thread and saw that no one has answered your valid question.


Virinder, what valid question would this be? Because we have tony saying that das has answered his question about 5 k's. 

Sangat ji
here is the whole shabd which starts on ang sung 843 and to ang sung 844. The way Virinder has only given tuks, it will mislead and is taken out of context to what the shabad is actually saying.

*BILAAVAL, FIRST MEHL: My mind is filled with such a great joy; I have blossomed forth in Truth. I am enticed by the love of my Husband Lord, the Eternal, Imperishable Lord God. The Lord is everlasting, the Master of masters. Whatever He wills, happens. O Great Giver, You are always kind and compassionate. ang 843*​ 
*You infuse life into all living beings. I have no other spiritual wisdom, meditation or worship; the Name of the Lord alone dwells deep within me. I know nothing about religious robes, pilgrimages or stubborn fanaticism; O Nanak, I hold tight to the Truth. **|| 1 || The night is beautiful, drenched with dew, and the day is delightful, when her Husband Lord wakes the sleeping soulbride, in the home of the self. The young bride has awakened to the Word of the Shabad; she is pleasing to her Husband Lord. So renounce falsehood, fraud, love of duality and working for people. The Name of the Lord is my necklace, and I am anointed with the True Shabad. With his palms pressed together, Nanak begs for the gift of the True Name; please, bless me with Your Grace, through the pleasure of Your Will. || 2 || Awake, O bride of splendored eyes, and chant the Word of the Guru.s Bani. Listen, and place your faith in the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. The Unspoken Speech, the state of Nirvaanaa . how rare is the Gurmukh who understands this. Merging in the Word of the Shabad, self-conceit is eradicated, and the three worlds are revealed to her understanding. Remaining detached, with infinity infusing, the true mind cherishes the virtues of the Lord. He is fully pervading and permeating all places; Nanak has enshrined Him within his heart. || 3 || The Lord is calling you to the Mansion of His Presence; O soul-bride, He is the Lover of His devotees. Following the Guru.s Teachings, your mind shall be delighted, and your body shall be fulfilled. Conquer and subdue your mind, and love the Word of the Shabad; reform yourself, and realize the Lord of the three worlds. Her mind shall not waver or wander anywhere else, when she comes to know her Husband Lord. You are my only Support, You are my Lord and Master. You are my strength and anchor. She is forever truthful and pure, O Nanak; through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, conflicts are resolved. || 4 || 2 || ang 844*​

:welcome:


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## pk70 (Apr 18, 2009)

*Respected VSGREWAL JI*
*I humbly request you not to misquote Gurbani to support your thinking.*
* If we misunderstand Gurbani correctly, we can pass it on correctly.  If we don’t, we do disservice to Guru just as if we write something different and others imply it in wrong way, in Gurbani, one should keep all respect for Guru in mind. I have nothing against you to teach Tony Ji and convince him whatever you think is right, problem occurs when you use Gurbani in wrong context. .Now let’s look at the complete Verses as given by Singh Ji, here it is*
  “Sangat ji
here is the whole shabd which starts on ang sung 843 and to ang sung 844. The way Virinder has only given tuks, it will mislead and is taken out of context to what the shabad is actually saying.[/FONT]
*BILAAVAL, FIRST MEHL: My mind is filled with such a great joy; I have blossomed forth in Truth. I am enticed by the love of my Husband Lord, the Eternal, Imperishable Lord God. The Lord is everlasting, the Master of masters. Whatever He wills, happens. O Great Giver, You are always kind and compassionate. ang 843[/FONT]*

*You infuse life into all living beings. I have no other spiritual wisdom, meditation or worship; the Name of the Lord alone dwells deep within me. I know nothing about religious robes, pilgrimages or stubborn fanaticism; O Nanak, I hold tight to the Truth. || 1 || The night is beautiful, drenched with dew, and the day is delightful, when her Husband Lord wakes the sleeping soulbride, in the home of the self. The young bride has awakened to the Word of the Shabad; she is pleasing to her Husband Lord. So renounce falsehood, fraud, love of duality and working for people. The Name of the Lord is my necklace, and I am anointed with the True Shabad. With his palms pressed together, Nanak begs for the gift of the True Name; please, bless me with Your Grace, through the pleasure of Your Will. || 2 || Awake, O bride of splendored eyes, and chant the Word of the Guru.s Bani. Listen, and place your faith in the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. The Unspoken Speech, the state of Nirvaanaa . how rare is the Gurmukh who understands this. Merging in the Word of the Shabad, self-conceit is eradicated, and the three worlds are revealed to her understanding. Remaining detached, with infinity infusing, the true mind cherishes the virtues of the Lord. He is fully pervading and permeating all places; Nanak has enshrined Him within his heart. || 3 || The Lord is calling you to the Mansion of His Presence; O soul-bride, He is the Lover of His devotees. Following the Guru.s Teachings, your mind shall be delighted, and your body shall be fulfilled. Conquer and subdue your mind, and love the Word of the Shabad; reform yourself, and realize the Lord of the three worlds. Her mind shall not waver or wander anywhere else, when she comes to know her Husband Lord. You are my only Support, You are my Lord and Master. You are my strength and anchor. She is forever truthful and pure, O Nanak; through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, conflicts are resolved. || 4 || 2 || ang 844( quote Singh Ji)[/FONT]* 

* In a nutshell, when you reach to that state of mind, all like religious pilgrimage, religious robes, religious worship and tough ways to please Akaalpurakh become insignificant as per Guru Experience.  You imply it on Sikh Bana which is not a religious robe, anyone, who wears is not considered as a religious seer as it is in case of robes of Kazi, Pundit and Sadhu, Hermit etc. Bhekh in Guru Shabad is about those who  wear a special religious robe and appear to be religious when they wear that robe.  How you can keep implying it in case of Sikh Bana, which is beyond my comprehension. You must question Guru Gobind Singh Ji openly who asked Sikhs to wear Bana.  Did Guru ji declare it a religious robe without which no one can realize HIM? If not then why are you quoting Gurbani targeting “religious robes" to dismiss Sikh Bana? Did Tenth Nanak not understand Guru Nanak as you have done or you are just implying your own thinking in context of Sikh Bana,?  You bet respected vsgrewal Ji, you are implying your own thinking. Remember, Tony Ji is asking in context of 5 Kakaars. Isnt it your answer in that context? I went through this thread, not a single person has stated that without this Bana, one cannot realize Akaalpurakh, it’s your attempt to negate of 5 Kakars that are questioned repeatedly but you are bent on your agenda and keep misquoting Gurbani, I wonder why? I never did and will never question those Sikhs who do not wear 5 Kakars unlike your practice of negating 5 Kakars. Respected VSGREWAL JI, if you want to teach something to Tony Ji, tell why Guru Gobind Singh ji offered 5 Kakaars to Sikhs or you prove Guru ji didn’t but Sikhs themselves chose them. If you agree Guru ji gave, then tell Tony Ji’s their importance at your own. Gurbani literally doesn’t address 5 Kakaars. Thanks.*
*Regards*
*G Singh*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 18, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

I am not upset. I want to call my self lowest of the low. Please accept my gratitude from the core of my heart for your suggestions and comments.

Regards.

Virinder


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 18, 2009)

Dear G Singh Ji,

Thanks for your constructive thoughts. We all are on the same page and sending the same message with different words.

I end this debate on 5K's from my side.

Regards.

Cordially,

Virinder

At this point -- approximately 200 hours at -5 GMT anything unrelated to the topic posted in the last day has been removed. Please debate issues not personalities. Next infractions will be issued. Please post entire shabads. If not your post will be edited for you. Thank you.


----------



## j_uk (Apr 18, 2009)

tony said:


> Dear all
> I have been on the forum for several years now and joined to find answers, Alot have been aswered but the one that still remains unanswered is the five K's. When I've seen threads on this topic Ive read them with interest but still no one has ever answered it, Many have tried but still no real answer. the hair one seems to always be that its a Hukam but no one says why Guru Gobing Singh ji gave it and the same with the rest of them. Nine Guru ji's didnt say we needed them, one did, Its not in the SGGS ji, Ive been told that untill I accept them it will be a stumbling block to my spirituality, But why. I'm told that I cant be a full Sikh till I have them, Why. Could some one please tell me what each one is for and why Guru Gobing Singh ji thought that we needed them and to what purpose they serve to day please.
> Tony


 Wahe guru ji ka khalsa
i belive that you are born in sikh family its doesnt mean that you are a sikh becuase a sikh would never question whats guru ji had said if you have got are not sure that dont call the guru but if you are sure then dont question guruji
as i dont belive that anybody should give reason to any other sikh regarding what any guru had said if sikh are not sure then dont call yourself a sikh


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## j_uk (Apr 18, 2009)

j_uk said:


> Wahe guru ji ka khalsa
> i belive that you are born in sikh family its doesnt mean that you are a sikh becuase a sikh would never question whats guru ji had said if you have got are not sure that dont call the guru but if you are sure then dont question guruji
> as i dont belive that anybody should give reason to any other sikh regarding what any guru had said if sikh are not sure then dont call yourself a sikh


Wahe guru ji ki fateh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 18, 2009)

j_uk said:


> Wahe guru ji ka khalsa
> i belive that you are born in sikh family its doesnt mean that you are a sikh becuase a sikh would never question whats guru ji had said if you have got are not sure that dont call the guru but if you are sure then dont question guruji


WJKK WJKF
I doubt that Sikhs DID not question the Gurus. I bet they did. 

I think that most Sikhs think that if you question Guru ji you are BAD or EVIL. Well, I cant be too sure but I used to think this way. We know that Brahmins questioned Guru ji. I automatically assumed all Brahmins were bad, and related that to questioning and thought that quesioning was bad as well. However not all brahmins were bad or had evil intentions, some just had to break out of their nutshell and see the world with a new perspective. Others just could not make sense of what Guru Sahibs told them, so they probably questioned. 

J Uk ji, If a teacher does not permit questioning in his class, then I certainly wouldn't want to be in such class. Such a rule would limit the amount that students can learn. It would handicap their potential to explore different areas of the lesson. What do you think?



> as i dont belive that anybody should give reason to any other sikh regarding what any guru had said if sikh are not sure then dont call yourself a sikh


This is forum though, we should be sharing our reasons, especially if that's what the discussions demands. but we shouldn't leave it at that. We should be exploring other possibilities and other forms of reasoning. We should also be exploring other perspectives. This something I always do and I think other should do as well.

WJKK WJKF


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 19, 2009)

oh DEAR..oh DEAR...
i CERTAINLY GAVE TOO MUCH CREDIT TO THOSE WHO are Punjabi - born and bred.
Gurbani..and the teachings and the Philosophy of Gurmatt that we discuss on SPN has got absolutely nothing to do with "worldly riches..the cold hard cash and bank accounts/shares/properties"
Its always got to do with SPIRITUAL RICHES..SPIRITUAL BANKRUPTSY..SPIRITUAL RECESSION..losses !!!

The First Generation Punjabi Born SIKHS....who arrived in MALAYA ( I ALWAYS speak/write from PERSONAL INTERACTION?EXPERIENCES - never hear say/assumptions) arrived here having Little or NO Literacy...most couldnt even write a single OOrra. BUT they had immesne FAITH in Guur Ji. They Gave ..and they gave..and they Gave..until they had established GURDWARAS..KHALSA PUNJABI SCHOOLS...
To them "Giving" 10 cents a month was HUGE becasue that daswandh was much more than 10%..it amounted to around 50% even.....These people were "RICH" in their TOTAL FAITH and BELIEF in what GURU JIS HUKM was.
The Second Generation..became educated in English...became Professionals, doctors...etc but they STILL RETAINED their Total FAITH in the Gurus HUKM..hence DASTAARS...their "contributions" to the Gurdwaras/Khalsa Schools still remained substantial...This generation was still RICH...
Then came the Third Generation...this is the one that lost its total Faith in Guru Jis HUKM....became PAUPERS in terms of Spirituality..threw the dastaar into the dustbin...earned huge amounts as doctors and engineers..BUT couldnt "afford" to give so much....GURDWARAS now had to turn to BANKS to "borrow money..take out LOANS...fro renovations etc..the ""Financiually RICH" sikhs had lots of responsibilities..credit cards..car loans, house loans,,etc and not much left for Gurdwaras...
Compared to the EARLY settlers..who among them had a LIMITED NUMBER of SGGS birs..even Gurdwaras had to depend on "borrowing a SGGS bir"...this "finacially rich" generation had SGGS Birs Parkash in their homes...each son had his own copy...they didint ned to even go to teh Gurdawra to get a copy during a sehaj paath etc...BUT their "appearance showed" they were Spiritually BANKRUPT. They read the SGGS a lot..BUT..Questioned ?? and then SELF ANSWERED the questions based on SELECTIVE TUKS picked up to reinforce their own predecided "Manmatt disguised as Gurmatt"
SWAAL JAWAB DOVEHN KAREHMudhon khuthah jaiyeh....in Aasa dee Varar.
They have since learnt the error of their ways..many among them...want and insist that their GRAND CHILDREN enroll for Punjabi Classes, Gurbani classes, keep KESH and wear Dastaars and chhak Amrit.
These are the Once RICH....but NOW claiming they are.."lutteh gayeh..haar gayeh..."...NO PUNJABI language..NO Sikhi..NO Punjabi culture....their childfren speak foreign languages. mix with other races..abuse drugs drink in pubs..smoke..and are abusive to parents.... who want the way back to the GURU..through their grandchildren. I see such examples daily....as I said i write based SOLELY on MY OWN personal experiences. 
And now a Malaysian Home grown Wise saying... Those who eat Hot Pepeprs..feel the burning sensation....The others have already seen through the smokescreen of blame...it remains in place for some..Still I say SORRY if my posts "seem to imply" what I never intended. I KNOW what I wrote..what i intended and what i meant...ALWAYS GURUs HUKM is SUPREME. I dotn throw stones ..they are counter productive....but people who live in glass houses..will always live in fear no matter how humble..appradhee doona niveh ?? MY sincerest apologies to all.


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## bairaagi (Oct 23, 2012)

I also had lot of doubts in my minds which were never cleared to 100% by my parents or Gyaniji in Gurudwara.
So I though a lot and here are my observations regarding five Kakars :

*Note : These are my personal interpretation and may not be 100 % correct. *

*Social condition at the time :*

 Before Guru Govind Singh the sikh panth was not formalized . Most of the followers were Hindus and also follow the teachings of Gurus. Our country was ruled by Moughals which were followers of Islam and wanted to convert everyone to Islam . The morale of people was at lowest level. No one was able to show courage to oppose conversion. Guruji wanted people to stand up against the oppression and wake up their inner strength.


*Significance of each 5 K at the time of Guru Govind Singh :*

Guru Govind singh wanted each of his follower to be Sant-Sipahi (Saint+Warrior) who can serve mankind and at the same time defend the belief .

*Kesh *: This is first mandatory kakar . There were multiple reasons for mandading uncut hair for khalsa.

(i) The saints in India have been keeping kesh,beard and moustaches since long. To surrender against the will of God. 

(ii) The kesh,beard and mustaches were considered royal in India since long and only royal people were allowed to keep long hair. The same is true about turbons as well . This was another reason to boost up the morale of people by making them "Sardaar" and give them pride and self confidence.

(iii) Unique identity was given to the sikhs. Khalsa and his actions will be recognized among thousand people. This also make all the look almost same. One sikhs should recognige other by appearance only and help if required (Brotherhood) . The same stands good for other people as well they should identify sikh and seek his help if needed.

*Kangha *: To comb and clean the long hair daily. Without combing long hair becomes "jata" like sadhus.

*Kripan *: The weapon given to defend . To be used only if individual/other is in trouble. For increasing self pride in sikhs giving them a tool for "aan ki raksha". Let us accept that it was tough time and people were killed  brutally if they don't convert.    

*Kachhera *: I can think of two reasons :
(i) Symbol of self control. Reminds of guruji's teaching if one is about to get involved in unjustified sexual relashionship.
(ii) Better then dhotis people use to wear that time. Ease of horse riding and during wars.

*Kara *: To remind of Guruji in every action as Right hand is generally involved in your actions. For example if someone pulls his kirpan then it will remind it is not to oppress anyone.


*Surname SINGH :* To make everyone aware of their inner strength by announcing them fearless Singh (Lions). This was also to suppress the cast system in society . 

Guru ji made people from Jackal to Lions , the people who were oppressed from centuries were made warriors and saints same time.

*Edit :* The turbon,beard and kara also use to protect  (at least few percent) from swords during wars.

* Significance of each 5 K in 2012 *:  To be continued ..... in next post.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 23, 2012)

Few thoughts Bairagi ji


> (iii) Unique identity was given to the sikhs. Khalsa and his actions will be recognized among thousand people. This also make all the look almost same. One sikhs should recognige other by appearance only and help if required (Brotherhood) . The same stands good for other people as well they should identify sikh and seek his help if needed.


This is preached a lot today but it wasn't the case back then. Points i and ii are the reality IMO. Also Rajput and kshatriya, and even Shaiv Panthis started filling up the Khalsa ranksin huge numbers. Being, warriors these communities thought it was their duty to fight in a Dharam Yudh announced by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Most of the warriors during his time were warrior caste. To them Guru ji himself emphasizes his warrior caste, and fighter nature saying I am the son of a Kshatriya, not a Brahmin, (read: I am someone who will fight in battle than someone who studies battle) when announcing himself as the head of this yudh in northern India.

Apparently only 3 kakkars were mandatory then. Kes, Kara and Kurd or Kes Kachha and Kurd.  Though I can't remember which 3 exactly, since it has been a long time since I read material on the early rehitnamas.

Kara symbolized commitment to the dharam yudh.

Kachhera is exactly like a dhoti. One is wrapped the other is tied. But there is one advantage to Kachhera and that is that it can have threaded bottoms that can be tied to secure it around the knees to prevent insects from crawling up. This cannot be done with dhoti nor loin cloth.

Singh is the warrior (specifically the Rajput community) last name. He was making his sikhs into warriors so he gave them a name to match. Also because most of the warriors in his army would have been Rajput. It's not like one day he said everyone is a warrior, and everyone knew how to fight. No, first those who already fought, came in then others adopted the name. Guru Sahib adopted it himself as well. The name was associated with rulers and warriors of India (Rajputs) who had defended it over centuries. It was only natural to give this powerful name to soldiers in his own army. Even so, he commanded a larger mercenary Muslim, Pathan force (Pathan is another one of these powerful warrior figures alongside Rajputs).

I think you'll be interested in this lecture on Sikh arms and armour: In Praise of Steel Nihang History -Davinder Singh Toor - YouTube


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 23, 2012)

Pamela498 said:


> Cant agree more Virinder ji, It is better to make the effort first then receive the honour than to receive the honour and forget to make the effort




IF every CHILD did it that way..the SCHOOLS would be EMPTY.
Every CHILD has to GET ENROLLED...wear the UNIFORM..adhere to the DISCIPLINE..listen to what the TEACHERS SAY..do the Homework..etc etc etc....and when EXAMINATION day arrives..the HONOUR is SHOWN as EARNED.

But what I do agree with you is that YES..many among us..do get enrolled..etc but make no effort...Fail miserably ...get EXPELLED even....others proudly *STAY AWAY*..and declare..I am doing PRIVATE studies at HOME"..ha ha...in ACTUAL FACT..the MAJORITY of those "private" students are those who *FAILED at SCHOOL/Got EXPELLED*...and save FACE by saying..I am studying privately..after all what is "education"..just study..anybody cna do that..blah blah blah...

NO one can be a "DOCTOR" by simply being a "private student"..staying at home with his medical books..BUT some so called DOCS do advocate that any one can be a SIKH just by being at home..???  Isnt it amazing..that I cannot go around treating "bodies"...but I can go around claiming i am a Good SIKH "inisde"...the "outside" doesnt matter..tricky subject..same values apply..


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

I think the school of spritual knowledge can not be equated with the school of wordly knowledge. 
I appreciate the example given by Giyani Jarnail Singh ji .But is this really a way for the spritual  knowledge?
It would be better to look into how great sriritual people acquired this knowledge.
In which school they got enrolled .
Sritual knowledge is purely thru grace of GuRu.This knowledge can struck to any one
anywhere.This knowledge does not require any attempts .This knowledge can be acquired even by illiterate one..How?

just my views

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

Our body is the place school for spritual Knowledge.
Within this body sitting GuRu is the teacher.
One is already enrolled.
it is all self control descipline.
GuRu itself is doing assessment 
GuRu itself honours the one who has been graced

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Prakash ji,
What is the role of a human guru in this scenario?


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## Harry Haller (Oct 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> What is the role of a human guru in this scenario?



unemployment

lol lol lol lol


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> What is the role of a human guru in this scenario?


 
Sikh is no different from GuROO.One can understand like this the role ..

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Sikh is no different from Guru. So there is nothing Guru Nanak Dev ji can teach you and me?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Sikh is no different from Guru. So there is nothing Guru Nanak Dev ji can teach you and me?


 
Pl look at a quote from Gurbanee as
"GuROO Sikhu Sikhu GuROO Eko GuR Updes Chalae" pp440

Such is the relationship beteween Sikh and GuROO

You have perhaps misunderstood the reference meaning of the word GuROO.
It is the teaching of NANAK DEV Ji as GuROO which every sikh is required to live with
The context of Sikh being as GuROO is related to this reference only.

GuROO-Sikh relation - ship is very unique in understanding. This is important to realise.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

In that case we are off topic. We both know what your post above is all about but my question is not about that.
Also no discussion could really take place about the kind of teaching you are talking about. It is that source by which you and I are here. It explains explanations. How can you talk about something, in which all ways of talking about things, dissolve and disintegrate. It is a fire that burns everything. Before we begin to speak about it, it has burned it to ashes. Thousands and thousands of books, scrolls, articles, posts, have had their words burned by this fire. The words on the page are mere ashes, not the fire itself.



> Our body is the place school for spritual Knowledge.
> Within this body sitting GuRu is the teacher.
> One is already enrolled.
> it is all self control descipline.
> ...


I agree with the above. There's a word for this, Antaryami, the Hari within (read: GuRu). I would call this the relationship between the Antaryami and Sikh. I keep Guru a term strictly to refer to people like Guru Nanak Dev ji. Yes they are Hari (read GuRu) and only by our human perception we view them as people but I want to discuss the human aspect when I say human guru.

1. Now what is the role of a human guru in your view? What is the role of *Guru *Nanak? 

2. Imagine if he was here today and you could speak to him for 2 hours a day. What would that look like?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

One should know from Gurbanee the role of NANAK in Human Form.
In human form Nanak has refered himself as Das of Hari or Simply as Jun.
Nanak as GuROO/GuRu is being refered to the JOTi Form of the Creator.

Try to understand this aspect of Gurbanee messages in context of Nanak as Human /and as GuRoo.
As JOTi Form the Creator NANAK DEV ji is ever before us as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Guru Nanak is the guide for akal purakh. A little like the tour guides we get before we embark on the destination.
As a human, I prefer to use the term Guru for him and the other 9 Guru's. The 'Guru' term can also be used for akal purakh, but most feel comfortable using it as stated and for the Nanak jyot as mentioned present in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
That's where my definiton for 'Guru' actually ends, as there is no more guru jyot after this, except for 'antaryami' within.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Prakash ji,
Guru Nanak being the sevak, das of Hari is fine. That's who he is in his personal relationship with Hari.
I ask you again. 
1. what is his role in relation to other people?

2. In relation to you?

Lucky Singh ji,
Go in depth. How is a Guru supposed to guide the sikhs?


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## Luckysingh (Oct 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Lucky Singh ji,
> Go in depth. How is a Guru supposed to guide the sikhs?


 
I think it's suffice to say that the word of the guru or the shabad is to be the eternal guide.
On another note , that you should understand is that most non -sikhs, when they meditate have some sort of a guide to aid them.
In my case, I usually prefer to picture an image of Guru Nanak when I start meditating. I see it as my personal guide to aid me on my journey and I'm sure most others have something similar.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Lucky Singh ji,


> In my case, I usually prefer to picture an image of Guru Nanak when I  start meditating. I see it as my personal guide to aid me on my journey  and I'm sure most others have something similar.


There's a shabad on that exactly.
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
गुर का सबदु राखु मन माहि ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ rākẖ man māhi.
Keep the Word of the Guru's Shabad in your mind.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਸਭ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
नामु सिमरि चिंता सभ जाहि ॥१॥
Nām simar cẖinṯā sabẖ jāhi. ||1||
Meditating in remembrance on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, all anxiety is removed. ||1||

ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
बिनु भगवंत नाही अन कोइ ॥
Bin bẖagvanṯ nāhī an ko▫e.
Without the Lord God, there is no one else at all.

ਮਾਰੈ ਰਾਖੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मारै राखै एको सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Mārai rākẖai eko so▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He alone preserves and destroys. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਰਿਦੈ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥
गुर के चरण रिदै उरि धारि ॥
Gur ke cẖaraṇ riḏai ur ḏẖār.
Enshrine the Guru's Feet in your heart.

ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਜਪਿ ਉਤਰਹਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
अगनि सागरु जपि उतरहि पारि ॥२॥
Agan sāgar jap uṯrėh pār. ||2||
Meditate on Him and cross over the ocean of fire. ||2||

*ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਇ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥*
गुर मूरति सिउ लाइ धिआनु ॥
Gur mūraṯ si▫o lā▫e ḏẖi▫ān.
Focus your meditation on the Guru's Murti.

ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
ईहा ऊहा पावहि मानु ॥३॥
Īhā ūhā pāvahi mān. ||3||
Here and hereafter, you shall be honored. ||3||

ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣੀ ਆਇਆ ॥
सगल तिआगि गुर सरणी आइआ ॥
Sagal ṯi▫āg gur sarṇī ā▫i▫ā.
Renouncing everything, I have come to the Guru's Sanctuary.

ਮਿਟੇ ਅੰਦੇਸੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੬੧॥੧੩੦॥
मिटे अंदेसे नानक सुखु पाइआ ॥४॥६१॥१३०॥
Mite anḏese Nānak sukẖ pā▫i▫ā. ||4||61||130||
My anxieties are over - O Nanak, I have found peace. ||4||61||130|| 

Page 192


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## Luckysingh (Oct 24, 2012)

'Bin bhagwaan nahi an koi'
'Marai rakhai ekhee so-e'

It's a beautiful shabad that goes in line very well.
Who said there were no instructions for us from the guru to meditate ??


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

True



> Who said there were no instructions for us from the guru to meditate ??


Lol you already know who said that!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji,
The problem lies in correct understanding of this 

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
गुर का सबदु राखु मन माहि ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ rākẖ man māhi.
Keep the Word of the Guru's Shabad in your mind.

Here one should look at the words ...Gur Ka Sabadu

The clear meaning for this is that THE WORD OF GuR but  the meaning is being 
considered as Gurs Shabad.

As I have understood GuR does not mean Guru. Unless this is understood 
clearly how it is possible to understand what is the role of NANAK as Gur Nanak.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> I think it's suffice to say that the word of the guru or the shabad is to be the eternal guide.
> On another note , that you should understand is that most non -sikhs, when they meditate have some sort of a guide to aid them.
> In my case, I usually prefer to picture an image of Guru Nanak when I start meditating. I see it as my personal guide to aid me on my journey and I'm sure most others have something similar.


 
What is the true picture as image of Guru Nanak?

If one carefully understands the essence of Gurbanee then one finds the
true image of Gur Nanak is that of the JOTi image of the CREATOR itself.

So try to know the true image of the CREATOR.

But I am sorry to say we dont believe that there is some image of the CREATOR ( Every one says there is no image of the CREATOR)

Once the image of the CREATOR is known it would be very easy to see Gur Nanak before you.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 24, 2012)

One of the "*K*'s that MOST Sikhs as well as non-sikhs most love today is *KORRUPTION*.lol


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