# Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani



## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 17, 2014)

I put this in the Hard Talk section for a reason... there seems to be a great divide in what should be a basic tenet of Sikhi.  That being the interpretation of Gurbani with regards to a spiritual existence, God, and reincarnation (for lack of a better word).

There seem to be two main groups:


Group 1:
Sikhs who interpret Gurbani to be nothing more than a poetic description of nature and science. There is no God, there is no spiritual existence, what we see is what we get. One life, only the physical universe and scientific rules.  Any interpretation of anything 'spiritual' is simply metaphor describing the acceptance of only the physical reality and nature and how to interact with it. In essence, they are pure athiest in belief. We are born once, die and when we die everything we were, also dies. There is no spiritual aspect of us and nothing survives physical death.

Group 2:
Sikhs who interpret Gurbani to be describing a creator who is aware of creation. The Universe, akin to a 'dream' of the creator where everything within that creation posseses the same divine essence. Basically, everything IS the Creator and the Creator IS creation. This group also believes this one life is not enough time to attain union with the creator, hence belief in muliple lives (call it reincarnation for lack of a better word or perhaps better called transmigration or spiritual progress). Further within this group, some believe all life, all matter etc are all really different expressions of the one Creator God (also for lack of a better word... we are not referring to a bearded man sitting on a cloud but the formless - but definitely aware - Creator) and that the truth to the Universe is oneness... where everything is really merged (even the physical Universe prior to Big bang was in union) Separation and duality are illusions of perception of this physical existence which is only transitory. Hence, this group believes deeply in the spiritual aspect of existence beyond this physical one. 

Most (if not all) websites with information about Sikhi online, fall into Group 2 with regards to teaching on reincarnation, spirituality, and a conscious and aware Creator:  

http://realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1248308791&ucat=7
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Reincarnation
http://www.sikh.co.uk/reincarnation/index.html
http://death.findyourfate.com/life-after-death/sikhism.html
http://www.religionfacts.com/sikhism/beliefs.htm

In opposition, the ONLY place I have seen those who fall into Group 1 are on this website (Tejwant Ji, Harry Ji, even spndamin Ji etc.) and whenever I see posts from them, they are adamant that their interpretation is correct and that everyone else's interpretations are wrong. 

This is not meant to stir up any controversy, but I assume it will at least a bit (unavoidably so) and hence why I put it in this section.  I am not looking to start an argument over who is right, but just to try and understand the thoughts of those in group 1. 

Because I just can't grasp why there is such a divide among Sikhs when it comes to what should be a very basic aspect of Sikhi! I personally fall into group 2 as do seemingly the MAJORITY of Sikhs as per the links I provided above, and there are MANY more (I only grabbed a few to illustrate the point) In contrast, I can not find even one single site that describes Gurbani as just a metaphor for science and nature, suggesting that there is no spiritual side to existence.

To Me.... This life can not be 'it'. I can't see how over the period of 200 years Sikhi would evolve to be just a metaphorically rich poetic way to write a science book. Why not just come out and say in plain langauge then... that there is no creator, and when you die that's it, everything you were is gone and your 'experience' goes black and that's it...We are accidents of nature and nothing more... Where is the purpose in life then? Or is that your reasoning, that there is no purpose and that we should just accept that fact? 

How would life have any meaning - since if group 1 is correct, in the end none of it would matter since we'd all meet our permanent demise in very short time anyway (comparison to age of the Universe vs human life) and all would then be permanently forgotten anyway??

Please everyone keep it civilized...


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 17, 2014)

Akasha said:


> http://realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1248308791&ucat=7
> http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Reincarnation
> http://www.sikh.co.uk/reincarnation/index.html
> http://death.findyourfate.com/life-after-death/sikhism.html
> ...



You missed my name. You perhaps missed gurbani tuk, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਜਿਹ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਗਏ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਰੀ ਬਹੀਰ ॥ Kabeer, the crowds follow the path which the Pandits, the religious scholars, have taken. but we at SPN, 'ਇਕ ਅਵਘਟ ਘਾਟੀ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਹ ਚੜਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੧੬੫॥ There is a difficult and treacherous cliff on that path to the Lord; Kabeer is climbing that cliff leaving crowd behind ||165||

Gurbani is for all time to be worth living, creative - ghari ghari ka laikha mangai. It is not to waste precious time sitting, parroting in a cave. Meditation is one of the means to waste precious moments. We might suppress our miseries momentarily by drugging our mind with meditation but when , ' ਮਾਇਆ ਗਈ ਤਬ ਰੋਵਨੁ ਲਗਤੁ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ where did the impact of meditation or smadhi goes at that time. Let us be practical.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 17, 2014)

Akasha ji,

Guru fateh.

Firstly, thanks for the great thread. I will respond to you in details about it later on but I am urged to say something very important.

No one is dissing "Spirituality" in this forum. Spirituality  is part and parcel of Sikhi. Living one's life with the concept of Miri-Piri (Temporal-Spiritual) is a life of a Sikh.

Perhaps, we all understand the Piri part differently depending on our personal experiences and there is nothing wrong with that. It is rather a must because after all we are all individuals from different upbringings, backgrounds etc.etc.

Sikhi is not an external imposition as most of the religions are but an internal manifestation which being a Sikh, a learner, a seeker is all about.

Will talk about it in detail later.

Thanks again for this food for thought. 

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Sherdil (Jul 17, 2014)

Akasha said:
			
		

> Because I just can't grasp why there is such a divide among Sikhs when  it comes to what should be a very basic aspect of Sikhi! I personally  fall into group 2 as do seemingly the MAJORITY of Sikhs as per the links  I provided above, and there are MANY more (I only grabbed a few to  illustrate the point) In contrast, I can not find even one single site  that describes Gurbani as just a metaphor for science and nature,  suggesting that there is no spiritual side to existence.



To be fair Akasha ji, this depends entirely on your definition of spirituality. If I understand your post correctly, you are defining spirituality as that which cannot be explained by science. I do not not agree with this as I believe there is only one reality which science and philosophy interpret in their own way. If the views of science and philosophy do not match then it is due to misinterpretation of either one. This is especially true regarding Sikhi, since it is not encumbered by fairy tales or hocus pocus. Sikhi has no qualms with science, nor does science have any qualms with Sikhi. 



			
				Akasha said:
			
		

> Sikhs who interpret Gurbani to be describing a creator who is aware of  creation. The Universe, akin to a 'dream' of the creator where  everything within that creation posseses the same divine essence.  Basically, everything IS the Creator and the Creator IS creation. This  group also believes this one life is not enough time to attain union  with the creator, hence belief in muliple lives (call it reincarnation  for lack of a better word or perhaps better called transmigration or  spiritual progress).



When gurbani says that the creator is aware of creation and contemplates over the creation, is it not describing us? We are all pieces of the creator. When we think and contemplate, it is the creator who is thinking and contemplating. 

The belief that multiple lives are required to attain union with the creator doesn't hold water. Sikhi teaches that an elevated level of consciousness is required to realize your oneness with everything. However through reincarnation, the consciousness has no recollection of past lives. The slate is wiped clean with every reincarnation. There is no spiritual progression. 

Some people believe in heaven and hell. Some people believe in multiple births and deaths. But everyone agrees that what we do in this life determines what will happen in the after-life. Sikhi even appeals to those who do not believe in an after-life, as the focus is on becoming one with everything while alive. We don't have to wait for death.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 17, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> To be fair Akasha ji, this depends entirely on your definition of spirituality. If I understand your post correctly, you are defining spirituality as that which cannot be explained by science. I do not not agree with this as I believe there is only one reality which science and philosophy interpret in their own way. If the views of science and philosophy do not match then it is due to misinterpretation of either one. This is especially true regarding Sikhi, since it is not encumbered by fairy tales or hocus pocus. Sikhi has no qualms with science, nor does science have any qualms with Sikhi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

And doesn't your interpreation work if the BASE OF REALITY is really ONE Universal consciousness (pure energy without form) rather than matter???

I guess my interpretation of spirituality is kind of different from others too in that I believe there really is only one thing in existence and that is one formless energy which is conscious. And yes it is US... as we collectively are the creator... but the Creator is also more than us. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji "HE IS ME" I cant remember the page) and also (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p 736 Creator is the director of this play we call life and ALL of the characters but when the costumes are removed there is only one) So I guess my interpretation is that reality is really spiritual in nature not physical. Indtead of the opposite who believe matter is the base of everything and there is no 'spiritual' or that spiritual is just our mind or thoughts or something. My interpretation also agrees with reincarnation, but not in a traditional sense of the word... yes our 'essence' our consciousness survives and evolves through progression, but not as a separate entity playing hoscotch with bodies. But because there really is only one consciousness and when we die physically, I believe its like the actor (p 736 again) removing the costume and remembering they were in fact the actor the entire time. But each character played adds something to the overall experience of the one consciousness.

This interpretation also agrees with science... as in Universal field theory... also we can already see the breakdown of the physical by peering into the subatomic.  There really is one field / energy at the base of everything.


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## Sherdil (Jul 17, 2014)

I agree with everything you wrote, up until here:


			
				Akasha said:
			
		

> My interpretation also agrees with reincarnation, but not in a  traditional sense of the word... yes our 'essence' our consciousness  survives and evolves through progression, but not as a separate entity  playing hoscotch with bodies. But because there really is only one  consciousness and when we die physically, I believe its like the actor  (p 736 again) removing the costume and remembering they were in fact the  actor the entire time. But each character played adds something to the  overall experience of the one consciousness.



My interpretation is that the Universal Consciousness is like the ocean. Our own consciousness is like a piece of that ocean trapped in a glass. The glass is not real, yet we are confined by it. The goal is to realize that we are the ocean, and not the glass. When we die, the glass breaks and its contents return to the ocean. The ocean continues to fill new glasses, but not necessarily with the same droplets. 

So in essence, I don't believe the play has to end for the actor to realize he is just playing a role. 



			
				Akasha said:
			
		

> This interpretation also agrees with science... as in Universal field  theory... also we can already see the breakdown of the physical by  peering into the subatomic.  There really is one field / energy at the  base of everything.


I agree. This is why I stated that Sikhi has no qualms with science. If there is a discord between the two, then it is due to a misinterpretation of either one.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 17, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I agree with everything you wrote, up until here:
> 
> 
> My interpretation is that the Universal Consciousness is like the ocean. Our own consciousness is like a piece of that ocean trapped in a glass. The glass is not real, yet we are confined by it. The goal is to realize that we are the ocean, and not the glass. When we die, the glass breaks and its contents return to the ocean. The ocean continues to fill new glasses, but not necessarily with the same droplets.
> ...



You and I think ALIKE 

It's those who don't believe consciousness is anything more than some sort of reaction between neurons that disappears when the physical body dies.  Those are the ones I can't comprehend how they think... though as I said, the intention of this post was not to debate who is right but just why people think they way they do.



> To be fair Akasha ji, this depends entirely on your definition of spirituality. If I understand your post correctly, you are defining spirituality as that which cannot be explained by science.



Nope you misunderstood my concept of spirituality... since I believe that consciousness (formless, energy, aware) is the basis of the Universe and not matter... I believe matter arises out of consciousness... then my concept of spirituality does agree with science.  In that the double slit experiment for example shows that a conscious observer does in fact affect the outcome of the experiment, and the electron behaves differently (either as a wave or a particle depending on whether or not it is observed) this shows us a definite connection between consciousness and matter at a base level - since electrons are basic components of every atom in existence!


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## Sherdil (Jul 17, 2014)

Akasha said:
			
		

> In that the double slit experiment for example shows that a conscious  observer does in fact affect the outcome of the experiment, and the  electron behaves differently (either as a wave or a particle depending  on whether or not it is observed) this shows us a definite connection  between consciousness and matter at a base level - since electrons are  basic components of every atom in existence!



I'm familiar with that experiment. Doesn't this give credence to the notion of Maya, in that what we interpret with our senses is not the fundamental reality? The Naam is the sound which our senses interpret as different notes. These different notes make up the musical composition of existence, known as the Shabadh. 

I think this goes back to the idea of "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" If no one existed to behold the Universe, would it exist in its present form, or would it simply be a wave of potential energy? So in essence, we are the Universe beholding itself, contemplating itself, and manifesting itself. This fits nicely with what gurbani describes the essence of reality to be.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 17, 2014)

Akasha  ji,

Guru Fateh.

We are all here to interact, discuss and learn from each other. I have mentioned many times before that disagreements are part and parcel of Sikhi and its learning process.

It is OK if you do not comprehend others’ viewpoints regarding this subject and let's be open in our disagreements and I hope we can remain like that with civility during our interaction and hence learn from all participants.

Kudos to you and Sherdil for the great educating interaction.

Now coming back to the subject at hand, the three words you have often used to express your point of view with are * Spiritual, Spirituality, Consciousness and Creator.*

Let's try to decipher these from the English dictionary first.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spiritual

spir·i·tu·al  (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. 
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. *Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural*.

Religious, spiritual, or ecclesiastical matters. Often used in the plural.

Modern spirituality is centered on the "deepest values and meanings by which people live." It embraces the idea of an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality. It envisions an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being.

Spirituality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

Here is a snippet from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/spirituality

Spirituality means something different to everyone. For some, it's about participating in organized religion: going to church, synagogue, a mosque, etc. For others, it's more personal: Some people get in touch with their spiritual side through private prayer, yoga, meditation, quiet reflection, or even long walks. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirituality
noun, plural spiritualities.

1.the quality or fact of being spiritual.
2.incorporeal or immaterial nature.
3.predominantly spiritual character as shown in thought, life, etc.; spiritualtendency or tone.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consciousness
con•scious•ness
  [kon-shuh  s-nis]  Show IPA
noun
1.the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings,etc.
2.the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual or of an aggregate of people: the moralconsciousness of a nation.
3.full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life: to regain consciousness after fainting.
4.awareness of something for what it is; internal knowledge: consciousness of wrongdoing.
5.concern, interest, or acute awareness: class consciousness.

The following is from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It is just a snippet I chose. You can read the rest to form your own understanding.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/consciou/

The problem of consciousness is arguably the most central issue in current philosophy of mind and is also importantly related to major traditional topics in metaphysics, such as the possibility of immortality and the belief in free will.

Here is one more. Again this is just a snippet:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

Consciousness

First published Fri Jun 18, 2004; substantive revision Tue Jan 14, 2014

Perhaps no aspect of mind is more familiar or more puzzling than consciousness and our conscious experience of self and world. The problem of consciousness is arguably the central issue in current theorizing about the mind. Despite the lack of any agreed upon theory of consciousness, there is a widespread, if less than universal, consensus that an adequate account of mind requires a clear understanding of it and its place in nature. We need to understand both what consciousness is and how it relates to other, nonconscious, aspects of reality.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/creator
creator
cre•a•tor
  [kree-ey-ter]  Show IPA
noun
a person or thing that creates.
the Creator, God.
So according to the dictionary, Creator means a deity which Sikhi does not have.

Now, let’s look at all 3 in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y

1.     *Spiritual* is used 666 times in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji pertaining to different words with different meanings.

2.	*Spirituality* is used only 6 times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with all 6 different words which mean different things.

3..	*Consciousness* is used 447 times for different words with different meanings contextually speaking.

4..	*Creator* is used 1365 times for the same reasons given above.

As English is the language we use to express our thoughts according to Gurbani, it is important to put each word in the context of the whole Shabad so we can grasp what our Gurus mean by this.

In order to further this discussion, I would like you to define these three words from your own viewpoint based on Gurbani so we can learn from all of us. You may quote Gurbani to clarify yourself.

Lastly, you write:



> In opposition, the ONLY place I have seen those who fall into Group 1 are on this website (Tejwant Ji, Harry Ji, even spndamin Ji etc.) and whenever I see posts from them, *they are adamant that their interpretation is correct and that everyone else's interpretations are wrong. *



Would you be kind enough to elaborate the above in *Bold*? As far I know, I never imposed my thoughts onto anyone else but always expressed my views and asked questions about others'. I never claimed that "my way or the highway" nor did I ever claim that my interpretation is the only correct one.

 I am a bit puzzled by your above claim.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 18, 2014)

this story from real Sikhism



> Revival of Manak Chand
> 
> Guru Amar Das Ji, the third Guru of Sikhs purchased some land in Goindwal and laid the foundation of a Bawli (a well with descending steps) in 1559. All Sikhs joined in the work of digging the Bawli. There was great activity throughout the construction of the Bawli. After digging very deep, they found large stones which hindered the progress. The underwater reserve was just below the stones. The Guru asked the Sikhs if there was any one who would be courageous to drive a peg into the base to remove the obstruction. He, however, warned that the operation had great danger because if the person could not avert the gush of water, he might drown. All Sikhs remained silent and no one came forward to take such a risk. At last, Manak Chand of Vairowal, who was married to a niece of Guru Ji, offered his services.
> 
> ...



Hmmmmmm
now Sikhiwikki



> Parents :	Guru Tegh Bahadur & Mata Gujri
> Brother/Sisters :	 -N.A-
> Spouse :	Mata Jeeto, Mata Sundri, and Mata Sahib Kaur.
> Children :	Zorawar Singh, Ajit Singh, Jujha Singh, Fateh Singh



I see, according to Sikhiwikki, the tenth master had 3 wives, so much for equality of the sexes. 


Sikh.co.uk



> Duality
> 
> In Western thought, duality exists between mind and matter. In Sankhya-yoga, duality exists between Consciousness and Prakriti, where mind is assigned to matter as is its complex of thought, intellect, memory and ego.
> 
> Purusa is held to exist in complete independence of the material realm. So the basic dualism in Sankhya-yoga metaphysics is between purusa and prakriti, between Consciousness and matter. (Schweizer). However, this dualism of reality is transcended in Sikh thought by addressing the identity, difference and relation problem by describing the Absolute as the numeral ‘1’ as its first term, 1 Consciousness both immanent and transcendental.



In my view, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written for the common man, the above is a nicely Vedicised  interpretation of Sikhism, as is most of the site. 

deathfindyourfate.com


> Sikhism teaches that the soul reincarnates when the body dies. Sikhs believe that good, or bad actions, determine the life form into which a soul takes rebirth. At the time of death, demonic, ego centered souls may be destined to suffer great agonies, and pain, in the dark underworld of Narak



I dont even know where narak is...

religionfacts



> Due to its religious context, Sikhism has elements of Hinduism and Islam in its beliefs, practices, and traditions. Some of its doctrines, such as certain aspects of its teaching on God, reflect Islam more than Hinduism, while other doctrines, such as karma, reflect Hinduism more than Islam. These characteristics result in a distinct religion, but one which has been heavily influenced by other faiths.



So, if we are lauding these websites as some sort of authority, then surely weight must be given to all content, which equates to Sikhism being some sort of mish mash between Islam and Hinduism, where our Gurus bring people back to life and have multiple wives, where there is a hell, and where the vedic type of meditation is supreme. 

I put it to you that given the enormous variety of thoughts on Sikhism, the safest position, to me anyway, is to embrace what you know as fact, reject what you know as rubbish, and go from there. 

A Sikh website that I find appealing is http://www.sikhspectrum.com




> whenever I see posts from them, they are adamant that their interpretation is correct and that everyone else's interpretations are wrong.



I actually make every effort to ensure that my opinions are put across as my opinions and nothing more


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 18, 2014)

In contrary to the summary of Japjisahib, where a beautiful simile of goldsmith portrayed by Guru Nanak in a very simple manner narrates that once impurities in the gold are removed under furance, gold settles down (in melting pot)for preparing ornaments of gold, in similar manner (with guru dai gian dai tap) by imbibing divine knowledge, chattering of manh can be stablized and as such our sufferings end, it is pity interpretation of most of the pankties that alludes reincarnation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ends in something like this (paraphrasing): "Remember the Naam, the name of the Lord, to end the cycle of births and deaths." 

I think what Guru Ji is trying to say here is that by imbibing and practically living the divine virtues, the 5 evils will be eliminated. If they are gone, you will no longer fluctuate between different personalities, you will no longer be a greedy snake one day and a lustful elephant the next, you will have effectively broken the cycle, no more reincarnations for you, and as a result, be living a Gurmukh lifestyle. Guru sahib throughout gurbani is concerned of our present life but our interpretation mostly is based on after death. 

It all depends how we understand and interpret gurbani. Like, 'ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥ as per my understanding to 8.4 millions habits, guru sahib is saying like zillion in common English and (rizak diya) provide them for their elevation the godly virtrues, thus all animal instincts within me gets transformed and not as is assumed material bhojan for sustenance.

Similarly when guru sahib says, 'ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਸੁਖੀਏ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਹਿ ਮੇਲੇ ॥੪॥ once we closely look at the pankties, we will realize over here parlok stands for my thought process which determines my 'lok' my bodies action. And if my thought process is imbibed with divine wisdom then my present is at peace. When we read lok gaeyo parlok gvaeyo - once thought process is corrupted our bodily actions are affected accordingly.


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## kggr001 (Jul 18, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I dont even know where narak is...



I believe that narak is here and its nowhere, it's the people who interpret situation they don't like as narak, for the one that has the lord in his heart there is no narak no matter in what situation that person is, he will see it as Lords Hukam.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 18, 2014)

A very revolutionary sabd where Guru sahib talks of animal in the gurbani like, 'ਫੀਲੁ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਬਲਦੁ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਕਊਆ ਤਾਲ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਚੋਲਨਾ ਗਦਹਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਭੈਸਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ SGGS.477 - Guru Sahib is not telling us the story of animals and or their language but are explaining that these animals in fact are sitting within us and are also teaching us a technique how to channelize them, 'ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ਸਿਆਹੁ ॥ dirt of pashu and pankhi birti had accumulated to the extent that no amount of logic realizes the presence of these animals and teachs us a techique to remove the filth. SGGS 651. (over janam janam is not different reincarnation but our shortcoming over short comings.

Coming back to the sabd 'ਫੀਲੁ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਬਲਦੁ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਕਊਆ ਤਾਲ ਬਜਾਵੈ  - Now elephant does not play the rabbab neither Ox or crow play the 'taal'. I estimate there must be about 20 shabads like these where a literal reading leaves us flabbergasted and one wonders what our Gurus or Bhagat intended to convey. Surely there is a deeper meaning to the revelations in Gurbani besides the literal. To understand shabads like these, it is necessary to keep in mind a few pointers. Firstly, the overall teachings of Gurbani must be kept in mind, like, Naam, Satsang, Guru, God, Truth, etc. Then , aid must be taken from other shabads which have used for example the animal imagery. Guru sahib is picturizing the animal instincts within me in this sabd.  The elephant is a (symbol of lust -) once we are able to manoveor the lust, then it start playing guitar player (contemplation on His sifat salah) without renouncing sex. Similarly, the ox (who is symbol of wild nature, anger, taunting nature) after chanelling anger, now is beating the drummer (celestial sound music of truth), and the crow (symbol of vishta (eating manure) – slandering, backstabbing) plays the cymbals (by manouvering them, my life is become a poetry). Then only we will able to come out of ajooni.


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## chazSingh (Jul 18, 2014)

We interact with God in the sargun form (creation)

question is can we interact with God in the Nirgun? (formless state, that which existed before the Sargun)...the source that will always be here

Gurbani says the Nirgun can be experienced within your very own being...because the sargun form (that includes us) came from the nirgun...we have that connection already there...*but dyaan is far too much on the Sargun...very little balance*

So really it is a question of whether people believe the interaction with Sargun is enough? Seva, compassion towards all, working with community...being a useful human being.

and whether people believe that the Nirgun can actually be experienced...and how it can be experienced...and whether being conscious of the Nirgun is purposful to our existance as a human being

Quite simple...Gurbani says this is our unique opportunity to experience the Nirgun...we have all the tools in our very being...

what do we have in the Sargun form that came from the Nirgun...? the shabad..the gurbani...in Sri Guru Granth

attach your consciousness to it, and let it guide you inwards..

create a balance between your outer sargun interaction, and the nirgun connection...

Simran, meditation, contemplation to reflect inwards with the aid of gurbani...is priceless...and absolutely 100% guides us towards the SOURCE...i have not a single doubt in this..

just my humble opinion....feel free to disect it 

God Bless


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## arshi (Jul 18, 2014)

Excellent post Chaz ji.....couldn't have put it better myself. The more you research Gurbani the more you realise how little we know. This is why Guru Nanak repeatedly reminds us to nurture humility, above all.

Bless you.

Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 18, 2014)

Tejwant Ji,

I was not referring to you specifically, but in general, those who have claimed things like "There is no God" or "There is nothing beyond the physical" etc. have not usually tagged "In my opinion..." to it. But instead have stated "according to Sikhi". The problem is, everyone interprets things differently, and we can never know if one another are correct or not so none of us should claim our thoery is the correct one. And in fact, I actually believe that Gurbani can be interpreted on several levels... and I think it was on purpose... so that there IS a message for both the physical life we are living, and the nonphysical or spiritual. Why can't both messages be contained within the same words at the same time? It would certainly be a testimate to the awe and power of Gurbani!!! 

As I can not access Sri Granth very well here, I will put my views on those words for now... and paraphrase where I can from memory... and will over the weekend start assmebling some quotes.

1. Spiritual / Spirituality - to me, it referrs to that part of us which exists beyond the physical. The fundamental part of us that makes us who we are... the 'I AM' - the 'Experiencer' the 'Doer'..... I suppose my definition is slightly different than others because I actually believe that the phsyical (sargun) is the illusion which arises out of the nonphysical (nirgun) and not the other way round. I believe the non-physical or spiritual IS the base reality. Also that they are one in the same... (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji forget the page: Creation is born of the light and the light is within the creation). 'Ik Onkar' is both creator AND creation at the same time. Spiritual refers to that part of us associated with the base reality... beyond the physical.

2. Creator - I believe that the Universe was created... I don't believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is just all metaphor to describe a physical Universe and science that governs it that just happened by accident. (Even Stephen Hawking can not account for how everything was initiated - there must have been an initiator prior to the big bang since everything has a reaction to action - things can not happen otherwise and this is basic science.) There are plenty of references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where it describes the Creator as 'watching over' or 'knowing' creation. That implies 'Ik Onkar' has awareness of creation in the very least. - Like others in this thread, I do not belive 'Creator' is as a diety described in religions - like some grey bearded old guy sitting on a cloud - but my understanding is more along the lines that there is really only one thing in existence - consciousness... or pure conscious / creative potential as one base energy field underlying everything. Since consciousness itself can not be measured and is formless it certainly fits. It also agrees with science (universal field theory) In fact consciousness is the ONLY thing you can ever know to actually exist and that is not an illusion or merely perception. Everyone knows their consciousness is real and its the only thing you can ever know for sure since everything else depends on measuring using devices within the 'illusion' or perception which is merely electrical signals sent to your brain. Essentially everything we experience is internal when you think about it. - Plus Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has many references to this world being as a dream / illusion. Some say that is some poetic metaphor for how fast life passes etc... I believe there is more to it and also agrees with science. Though I am not saying they are completely wrong either... but I believe there is more than one level of knowledge contained within gGrbani. I believe it can be applied to BOTH the physical and the nonphysical/spiritual and that is what is so awesome about it. 

3. Consciousness - Awareness, Sentience, the ability to experience. I do not belive it is merely a potential or product of the material world. I belive that the material is actually the product of or potential of consciousness (since I believe consciousness IS the base reality - nirgun, formless creative potential). Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does mention the interaction between consciousness and matter... P 21 I believe paraphrased - Everywhere I look I see the Lord pervading in the union of shiva and shakti, of consciousness and matter - now again, I am not interpreting Lord as a guy sitting on a cloud, but instead the base Universal consciousness of which everything arises. Shiva and Shakti are using known references at the time to 'creation' and 'destruction' it is not refering to actual dieties (which I am sure you also agree with Tejwant Ji) but moreso the idea of creation and destruction that they represent. So even pulling apart the metaphor, it is still saying there is a consciousness or awareness that is interacting with matter on a very base level that pervades everything ('everywhere I look' - even down to the subatomic). This certainly agrees with science and the double slit experiment I already mentioned. 

To sum up my belief / understanding : We are the ONE creator (Universal Consciousness) subjectively experiencing itself through its own creation. (agrees with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 736 actor staging the play and playing all the characters, but that there is really only ONE actor) Because the part of us which is the experiencer or doer, is the real us... and not the character engaged within this life, this is why EGO needs to be removed. We the character are the transient illusion... we are all caught up in the parts we are playing right now, and have forgot who we really are (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji forget page but its part of Japji I think... where it says once we realize that 'HE IS ME' what more is there left to do. Also many references to divine light within everyone. So basically how can it say 'He is me' and since its a message to everyone not just one person, then everyone collectively must be 'he' - just basic reasoning here - and that we need to shed ego to realize that 'He is Me' - as in the Universal ONE consciousness and my consciousness are one in the same... Creator IS creation...) Of course again, I am not meaning a 'he' as in some old guy sitting on a cloud... but the formless universal consciousness - awareness) There is also another spot forget the page again (sorry) where it says "Oh my mind you are the embodiment of the divine light, recogzie your own origin." So this journey of life / purpose and merging to me have much to do with shedding EGO and this temporary identiy of individuality and recognizing my TRUE identity which is ONEness... which speaks to me more of realization that 'I AM' - in other words... I am not temporary... I will not cease to exist when this physical identity / character dies. 

Which brings me to one last quote... again paraphrased where it says to arrive at our true home when we die, we must conquer death while still alive. How better to conquer death than to realize it's an illusion and not the true reality??!

Again, sorry I could not use actual quotes as I cant access the site while at work to post quotes... and if I messed up any of them when referring to them, I appologize, pls remember it was all from memory.


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## arshi (Jul 18, 2014)

Akasha ji, a great thread, quite aptly placed under ‘hard talk’.

<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





nis din bhajai’</STRONG> </I>M:9 Slok 29 – Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1427-19). This is also repeated in Slok 43 _(*jeh ghat simran*)._

Akasha ji, I have gone through your post quickly, which reverberates a number of my own feelings on the topic. The world/creation, as we see it and know, is itinerant and *nirgun, *in my humble opinion, is permanent and the reality – we can also view this in the form of _sooksham_ (subtle) and _asthool_ (physical) entities of the human body. I am, like all, a humble student and aim to constantly learn from Gurbani and from other enlightened minds. In no way do I assert my own interpretation to be the correct one. 

Again, I very much like what I have read in your posts.

Humbly

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 18, 2014)

Akasha ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the great post.

When I say, "In Sikhi there is No God", it is obviously my opinion based on my understanding of Gurbani and what God means in the world all over. God in any dictionary or in all religions is a deity where Sikhi has none. This is also the reason I never use words like God, Lord, Almighty, Creator. The reason being, none of these words describe Ik Ong Kaar which is the only term  I ever use. I also usually ask people who come in the fold of Sikhi or/and who belong to other religions attend SPN  to describe God with their own understanding.

I do not lump Sikhi with other religions but compare it with them when the need arises. I never impose unto others about my views. The beauty of Sikhi is that anyone and everyone can dispute my understanding of Sikhi with theirs and educate me about it. Like any other Sikh I am open to learning. This is the only way we can learn from each other which Gurmat mandates.

We all know that Gurbani is full of metaphors and it depends on the individual how to understand/interpret them.  We also know that Sikhi is all about poetry. This is the way our visionary Gurus penned it and wanted us to feel it  in our gut first before even understanding it.

I am sure you know quite well that music moves us from inside out. Its birth is borne from the within and I am also certain that  you are aware of how each poem in any subject  written by anyone can be interpreted in many different  ways .Some understand  it literally and insist on that claiming that theirs only is the true interpretation and others think differently.

Shabad Keertan moves many people who are not even Sikhs. My brasilian brother David listens to Asa de Var every day and other Keertan. He is an agnostic. I sent my van for a repair to my next door neighbor’s business and the person who picked it up is from Argentina. Bhai Harjinder Singh’s Cd was playing. Raul loved it and he wanted me to make a copy of it. I gave him about 10 cd’s of Keetan and he never stops thanking me. There are many others like these two who enjoy Keertan without understanding any word. This is the beauty of music which literally put all of us on this speck of sand called the Earth as one sans any demarcations. 

These ‘Good Vibrations’ that people feel  while listening to Keertan can be named Spiritual, Emotional Connection or just “ Because I am Happy” feeling.

This is the reason we all have different experiences while we listen to it and our understanding of the same varies.

I have read with great interest how you understand the words Spiritual, Spirituality, Consciousness and Creator. As I do not use these words in my expressions of Gurbani, I can respect the meanings of the words which are meaningful to you. Perhaps, I may use different words to express the same.

I do not think it is a good idea for anyone to divide Sikhs into groups and other Sikhs endorsing these kinds grouping. By doing this, we are no worse than the many Sikh sects like AKJ, GNNSJ from Birmingham, UK, and many others.

Many Sikhs speculate answers about the future which I do not. I simply say, "I do not know" because Gurbani teaches me that.

Disagreements in Sikhi do not create divisions but they make people closer by interacting more about the subject and hence learning through this experience. This is one more beauty of Sikhi. It expands our horizons of the understanding of humankind provided we do not become its mechanical parrots.

I have gone through all the sites of your (group 2) and  I am sorry to disappoint you, for me there is nothing Sikhi about them. They are filled with Hindutva as far as Kaama, reincarnation and other things are concerned. You can point out things that I may have missed in them.

http://realsikhism.com/index.php?sub...8308791&ucat=7
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Reincarnation
http://www.sikh.co.uk/reincarnation/index.html
http://death.findyourfate.com/life-a...h/sikhism.html
http://www.religionfacts.com/sikhism/beliefs.htm

I have an idea so we can all interact together whether being on the same page or not.

I would like you to choose any Shabads from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which include the words Spiritual, Spirituality, Consciousness and Creator. Please express your understanding of the particular Shabad and let others pitch in with theirs. This would be a great exercise for all of us to understand and then practice Gurbani.

What do you think?

As mentioned before, this is a great thread but its title is a bit judgmental which is fine with me. Let’s irrigate this Gurmat tree together and reap its fruits so that we can share them with others.

Thanks & regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 19, 2014)

There are in reality many other sites that mirror SPN....www.Sikhmarg.com is an excellent site....The Sikh Bullettin published at http://sikhbulletin.com/ is another one..Dr Devinder Singhs Understanding Sikhism is another...The Books published by the Sikh Institute of Chandigarh also good material, Sikh Missionary College at Ludhiana...

Compared to the "crowds" and the Bheerr...Discerning Sikhs..are always few and far between....just go to any DERA in Punjab to see the CROWDS...but enter a LIBRARY..and count the number of Sikhs ??  Those who "IN" the SPN crowd..are almost always found in Libraries rather than at DERAS..

I really love the postings of Sahni Ji (Japjisahib04)..he has hit  the nail right on its tiny square head  so well...and Tejwant Ji, Harry Ji, and the Late Narayanjyot Kaur ji..are the pillars of SPN....and pillars are always LESS then the BRICKS.....so dont count the numbers..weigh the substance..


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## arshi (Jul 19, 2014)

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=2>Akasha ji<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



You wrote:



> _Again, sorry I could not use actual quotes as I cant access the site while at work to post quotes... and if I messed up any of them when referring to them, I appologize, pls remember it was all from memory._


<o> </o>
I mentioned in my earlier post (#15) that, although I went through you post rather hurriedly, I found it interesting. Fortunately, I am enjoying the break between university semesters (the lull before the storm) and had the time and the pleasure to go over your post a number of times and what I said earlier was an understatement – *it is awesome - there is so much food for thought. *The fact that you have stringed along so many concepts from memory makes it even more exceptional. My first reaction was to dissect some of your thoughts and add my own understanding and interpretation of them, *mostly backing what you said* – this would take many pages and many _parmans _illustrations from Gurbani and distract from your intended post over the weekend.

Translations vary between individuals. We learn from each other, but the most effective learning, in my opinion, is by continually reading, interpreting and contemplating Gurbani. Over time we learn to converse with Guru Ji – Bani begins to talk to us and translation is no longer an issue. Immersion in Guru’s message will translate into actions and the negative traits will gradually begin to wane and transform into positive attributes. I have written several articles on these negative traits and how to overcome them, with Guru’s blessings, mostly for my own benefit. I need to revisit and revise these in the light of further insight gained from continually being attached to Gurbani. We can never do justice in translating and interpreting Gurbani. Only Guru Ji is perfect. 



> _As I can not access Sri Granth very well here, I will put my views on those words for now... and paraphrase where I can from memory... and will over the weekend start assmebling some quotes._


<o> </o>
I think the pankti you quoted from Ang 21 is:
_jah daykhaa tah rav rahay siv saktee kaa mayl. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 21–4 M:1)_

Another pankti, I assume, might interest you is from Anand Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 920-12 M:3):
_siv sakat aap upaa-ay kai kartaa aapay hukam vartaa-ay. _
_hukam vartaa-ay aap vaykhai gurmukh kisai bujhaa-ay._

I really look forward to your next post. 

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 20, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> There are in reality many other sites that mirror SPN....www.Sikhmarg.com is an excellent site....The Sikh Bullettin published at http://sikhbulletin.com/ is another one..Dr Devinder Singhs Understanding Sikhism is another...The Books published by the Sikh Institute of Chandigarh also good material, Sikh Missionary College at Ludhiana...
> 
> Compared to the "crowds" and the Bheerr...Discerning Sikhs..are always few and far between....just go to any DERA in Punjab to see the CROWDS...but enter a LIBRARY..and count the number of Sikhs ??  Those who "IN" the SPN crowd..are almost always found in Libraries rather than at DERAS..
> 
> I really love the postings of Sahni Ji (Japjisahib04)..he has hit  the nail right on its tiny square head  so well...and Tejwant Ji, Harry Ji, and the Late Narayanjyot Kaur ji..are the pillars of SPN....and pillars are always LESS then the BRICKS.....so dont count the numbers..weigh the substance..



This is my point... you have basically just outright said those who follow an atheistic interpretation of Gurbani have 'hit the nail on the head' while not coming out and directly saying it, implying that those of us who interpret it spiritually are wrong and are not 'pillars' and even suggested that we are not in the books and reading...

In fact I do read Gurbani every single day.... though I do have to rely on english translations, I never use just one version.  And my vocabulary is becoming better with time so I recognize more and more words without needing to translate them.

And no matter how hard I try to dismiss a spiritual nonphysical aspect to existence and dismiss a conscious creator - I just can't.  Life would seem so hopeless and meaningless if we were just accidents with no purpose.  And further to that, I just don't get that meaning coming to me in Gurbani at all.  I feel it... deeply inside every time I listen that there is MUCH MUCH more to existence... that we are spiritual beings... not merely physical.  That there is more to life than just this puny physical existence (puny in the sense compared to the Universe we are merely a tiny speck - at least our physical shell).  

I am not dismissing that there can be interpretation that can apply to physical life... but I believe that the miracle of Gurbani is that it can contain in the same words, messages for both physical life AND spiritual!  So if someone is only looking to see a physical material world meaning then that is all they will see and it will be there for them... but those looking for a deeper spiritual meaning pertaining to life beyond the physical, that will also be there and they will see it.... two messages contained in the same exact verses.  And that's what I believe is so awe inspiring!  So I am not dismissing the purely physical, material...nonspiritual interpretations at all... but I do wish that those who only go looking for meaning pertaining to the physical material world, would also have a teeny bit of an open mind and also consider the possibility that it also contains meaning on the spiritual level too.


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## Ishna (Jul 20, 2014)

I thought Gyani Ji was pointing out the difference between the crowds vs the discerning people.

The Gurdwara I go to is full of people, so many that people have to wait in the foyer and can't all fit into Darshan Sahib.  The langar is always bustling, the kitchen with many volunteers.

But the Gurbani class has a total of 3 regular attendees.  When the Gurdwara committee wanted to install an air conditioner into the sukhasan room, it was Gurbani class teacher who stood up and asked them why, when Guru Sahib's wisdom doesn't even feel the heat.

The air conditioner got installed anyway.  I guess the crowds were right.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 21, 2014)

Ishna Ji has got me right. and Akasha Ji..apologies..you have got me totally wrong.

A few other observations ....

Pillars of SPN is not the same as Pillars of Sikhi !!! And certainly no one on SPN has ever or  are  advocating that it all happened by accident, and that there is no CREATOR....Anyone who has even the tiniest knowledge of Gurbani and undertands it has to have total beleif in the CREATOR...simple as that.

What many here myself included..Dont beleive in reincarnation..joons..heaven , hell, pilgtrimages,paaps, punns, daans to Brahmins, feeding Panj Holies in order to Courier that food to dead and long gone ancestors.. holy waters, holy baths, sarovars, baolis, numbers of jaaps paaths etc for wish fulfillment etc etc etc.. we also dont beleive in Bhoots, prets, ghosts, evil spirits, good spirits, angels, satan, prophets, avtaars, God born as Human, his son, his daughter, past lives and future lives, renunciations, Yogas, siddhs, assans, Aquarius ages etc etc. In regards to these Gurbani is METAPHORICAL...many of the same words used are NOT meant to be taken as the older meanings but by the meanings formed from understanding and gathering INTERNAL EVIDENCE from Gurbani itself.

Man has no understanding of JOONS at all...and if we continue to take the 84 lakh figure as REAL FACTUAL TRUTH..then we are going to soon realsie our folly..just as the Church had to when Galileo proved that the earth was round..that the SUN was the centre of the soalr system..that the earth circumnavigated the Suna nd not vice versa..and that the SUN couldnt have STOPPED for the Walls fo Jericho to fall..becasue IF the Sun stops...Gravity ceases to exist and the Soalr system collapses immediately..BUT to an ignorant MAN..the SUN risinga nd setting sems possible to STOP IT right there and set at a convenient time becasue HE cannot see beyond the rising/setting phenomenon...OUR GURUS seee far deeper than just numbers...and what JOONS does the Ordinary MAN "know"...about as many as the Artists who draw Illustrated Bibles...just have a look at Noah's Ark...and what do you see....a Lion..and Elephant..a Tiger..a cow..a leapord..a dog..a monkey..etc etc...because thats about the sum total of Mans knowledge.....Sikhs who beleive in JOONS also have this limited knowledge..as such people become dogs..cows..etc..I havent yet come across abook/story hwere someone became a Virus..a bacteria..because thats just not "thought about"..this is also where the idea and reasoning behind..Killing a Cow is worse than killing a Mosquito...simply becasue a cow is supposedly higher joon..but GURBANI says LIFE is LIFE...what is saag, what is gannah, what is meat..only HE KNOWS !! and its the correct position vis vis Gurbani.  ALL the so called reincarnated souls that the Gurus supposedly saved..were snakes..rabbits..etc...NONE was a Virus or a bacteria..?? WHY..maybe becasue its pointless showing the GURU shooting an ARROW to kill a Virus !!! Who wants to see that..The Guru Killing a Snake to save the long lost soul of a sikh..is much more entertaining...so A Sikh who lied to Guru nanak ji became a SNAKE..whose soul was then released by Guru Gobind Singh ji with an arrow !! Wow thats entertaining..to many but not to me..apologies if this is called.."only I am Right  and all others are wrong"..behaviour ?? Should EACH statement be parenthised in brackets as ( MY OPINION ONLY)..??? if this is not done..then it becomes like I am right  and you  are wrong ??..I dont think so ji....Its a foregone conclusion that ALL "interpretations" of Gurbani are personal ...NONE .....except the Original is Gurmatt. Only the Guru has Gurmatt..we ALL 100% are Manmatt holders..some more than others..but manmatt still...The MORE GURMATT we imbibe...the more Gurmatt COLOUR we exhibit...thats all..

regards


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## Luckysingh (Jul 21, 2014)

Akasha said:


> And no matter how hard I try to dismiss a spiritual nonphysical aspect to existence and dismiss a conscious creator - I just can't. Life would seem so hopeless and meaningless if we were just accidents with no purpose. And further to that, I just don't get that meaning coming to me in Gurbani at all. I feel it... deeply inside every time I listen that there is MUCH MUCH more to existence... that we are spiritual beings... not merely physical. That there is more to life than just this puny physical existence (puny in the sense compared to the Universe we are merely a tiny speck - at least our physical shell).
> 
> I am not dismissing that there can be interpretation that can apply to physical life... but I believe that the miracle of Gurbani is that it can contain in the same words, messages for both physical life AND spiritual! So if someone is only looking to see a physical material world meaning then that is all they will see and it will be there for them... but those looking for a deeper spiritual meaning pertaining to life beyond the physical, that will also be there and they will see it.... two messages contained in the same exact verses. And that's what I believe is so awe inspiring! So I am not dismissing the purely physical, material...nonspiritual interpretations at all... but I do wish that those who only go looking for meaning pertaining to the physical material world, would also have a teeny bit of an open mind and also consider the possibility that it also contains meaning on the spiritual level too.


 
Absolutely!
Firstly, we are just a small puny 10%, if that, of the whole existence.
Our brains are only ever using 10% of the capacity.

I have said it many times before,... that* gurbani is agam,agad,bodh (ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਬੋਧਿ)- A treasure of immeasurable depth and limits. It is Unlimited,Infinite and All powerful...*

The strength and understanding gets deeper and deeper as you become more spiritual.

However, the ones that just look and understand the literal, surface meanings as the be all and end all, are also the ones that love to stand on the wall and shout at the spiritual seekers.
I wouldn't let any person or wall come in between the way of your deeper self and waheguru. 
The seekers will continue seeking and the knower's can remain on the walls...

Saas saas simro gobind.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 21, 2014)

Another MYTH bites the dust...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ime-nerves-cells-involved-thought-active.html

:grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 21, 2014)

The other myths..are not tangible...so a bit more difficult to grasp...while standing on  a wall..

and i always thought that the ones actually taking the Gurbani literally, on the surface as be all and end all were the ones that are "spiritual"...ones..not the ones who go DEEP into the metaphors and scan the ocean floor for the pearls instead of being satisfied with admiring the bubbles on the surface. By "spiritual: i mean the naamjappers number crunchers maala ferrers and mutterers of countless jaaps etc and NOT the Genuinely Spiritual ones like Bhagat kabir Ji, Bahgat ravidass Ji, bahgat namdev Ji, bahgat Dhanna Ji etc who wouldnt be caught dead near a maala or sitting down endlessly muttering under guise of meditation....but busy weaving clothes, mending shoes and curing leather or farming to earn a meagre income to feed themselves and their families via Kirt...


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The other myths..are not tangible...so a bit more difficult to grasp...while standing on  a wall..
> 
> and i always thought that the ones actually taking the Gurbani literally, on the surface as be all and end all were the ones that are "spiritual"...ones..not the ones who go DEEP into the metaphors and scan the ocean floor for the pearls instead of being satisfied with admiring the bubbles on the surface. By "spiritual: i mean the naamjappers number crunchers maala ferrers and mutterers of countless jaaps etc and NOT the Genuinely Spiritual ones like Bhagat kabir Ji, Bahgat ravidass Ji, bhagat namdev Ji, bahgat Dhanna Ji etc who wouldnt be caught dead near a maala or sitting down endlessly muttering under guise of meditation....but busy weaving clothes, mending shoes and curing leather or farming to earn a meagre income to feed themselves and their families via Kirt...


Gyani Jee

You have beautifully put it all. After all it is the gian and able to listen the voice of conscience and implement is all what gurbani is telling and not simply muttering and even knowing the meaning.  On the other side what makes us genuinely remember God from the core of our heart. It is again gian.


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## Sherdil (Jul 21, 2014)

I came across this wonderful video, which I believe beautifully renders  Sikh teachings about the self and the universe. It encompasses exactly  what we were discussing before. 

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5FELdBsixGg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 21, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I came across this wonderful video, which I believe beautifully renders  Sikh teachings about the self and the universe. It encompasses exactly  what we were discussing before.
> 
> <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5FELdBsixGg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>



Beautifully put! And is exactly my thinking! Also have a look at the holographic universe videos... 

However you do know some on here will call this quantum woo or supernatural nonsense or something...


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## Harry Haller (Jul 22, 2014)

this is all quantum woo or supernatural nonsense, or something


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 22, 2014)

Heres a rewording of Akashas groups of sikhs....

Yes there are Sikhs who lean heavily on marxist platform who are ATHESTS and who do not believe in God, Creator and or the Gurus as anything more than Better Men than most. Famous writers like the Late Founder Editor of Preetlari which was banned Communist publication during British Rule Gurbaksh Singh had in his writings called Guru Gobind Singh ji a MAN Better than Most. Gurbaksh Singh and his co-marxists DONT beleive in God or anything spiritual. He preached the Gurus as mere Humanists, social reformers, good economic leaders, as they fought against caste and slave albour etc and wnated equality for all - these are features of reform that Marxism shares with Sikhism. BUT no one at SPN - esp those named by Akasha Ji are Marxists as we all have a firm beleif in the Creator and His creation.

There is NONE of these here at SPN.  This "Athesit" label also sometimes called the Kala Afghana Label, Rozana Spokesman Label, Anti-Akal takhat Label, is the Favourite way to "tar and feather" those Sikhs who refuse to beleive in miracles and so called spiritual powers of brahmgyanis, Babs and holy waters, holy places of past lives hemkunt etc holy books holy banis of this and that Guru that are NOT in the SGGS.

In the early days of the Internet...there was a good helathy mixture of websites promoting the DG Sikhs point of view and the Not DG sikhs point of views. Slowly the DG point of view Sikhs have taken over/bought over/ ...and closed down the Anti DG Sikhs point of view sites even for Kirtan etc. Now this Onslaught is in full swing on INTERNET RADIO and Radio sites...Famous and well known Radio Presenters have not only been physically attacked, they have been sacked/forced out when their Employers get into hugs with the "cash cows". One most famous name is Jasbir Singh....who used to be a presenter at Punjab radio..He was firstly physically attacked at a Gurmatt camp, badly beaten and then sacked when His Boss changed sides.... Fortunately Internet radio is quite cheap to run and operate..so in their place new ones spring up..radio Virsa NZ, Radio Spokesman, Radio Naad etc etc which carry on vigorously to spread the so called "missionary" Sikhism. Its obvious the DERAWADEE babas have huge monetary resources, and so has the DG Lobby which is backed by the Authorities to the hilt...and thus its normal to see sites on the web that mirror this sikhism...

YET...each and every Attack on Sikhism - be it by the RSS backed Swamis like DyaaNands or the Communists schoalrs, or the MCLeods of the western World...each and every such "attack" was countered NOT by the Babas and Brahmgyanis..BUT by the Missionaries and their allied SCHOLARS. Not a single Baba or dera has written any book defending Sikhsim agains the Mc Leods or the Marxists in our Universities and Media.  The Foremost defender of Sikhism is The Institute of Sikh Studies Chandigarh which through its authors Daljit Singh and Kharak Singh etc written many books to expose the MC leods Pashauras and Marxists who attack Sikhism.

Regards


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 22, 2014)

My way or highway only leads us to the cul-de-sacs of our lives.


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## chazSingh (Jul 22, 2014)

I posted this on another thread...something i came across and i think Gurbani portrays creation in a similar way... thought i'd post it here as well.

In the beginning, there was the Self. There was the One Self, and nothing but the Self.
The Self was All One. The Self was all-one. The self was al-one.
In its aloneness the Self considered itself. There was nothing else to consider, since the Self was all there was.

The One Self looked at itself and, in the looking, became two: that which was looked at, and that which was doing the looking.

In looking, there was here and there, and there was movement between the  here and the there. In movement, there was vibration, there was energy;  and where there was energy there were limitless possibilities.

And the voice of the One Self sang out the One Song, the One Verse, the  Uni-Verse, and an infinite richness of light and heat and sound vibrated  into being. 

Within this great sea of potential, each tiny note trembled and sped,  emerged and dissolved and united with others in great patterns and  harmonies to give rise to suns and stones and butterfly wings and the  concepts of space and time. 

And the Onesong, in all its glory, was still One, and the Self was still  the One Self, and all things were simply aspects of that One Self.

But being is not the same as experiencing; in order to experience  anything, it is necessary to express it. For example, creativity is only  experienced when it is expressed through the act of creating something.

Although the Self could never divide itself or become anything other  than Self, the infinite shifting patterns within itself created  opportunities to express its ideas and to experience them by shifting  the position through which it observed the whole.


It could observe from the perspective of a galaxy or a garden snail. It  could experience the totality of its whole being, or reflect upon the  qualities of a rose through the senses and mental processes of a child.

And, being a child, it could imagine that those senses and mental  processes were all it was, and forget its totality for a while. 

It could believe itself to be limited and small within an infinite  playground, and be awed by the presence of something vast and seemingly  other than itself.

It could do that for a whole lifetime or for many lifetimes; or perhaps  forever. But there was a sadness in that, because a tiny being within a  limitless universe could feel helpless and small and insignificant and  thereby lose its sense of meaning and purpose in life.


So, like a traveler in a strange land leaving signs on the road so that  he could always find his way back home, it left clues to remind itself  of its true identity and in each lifetime it played out the Great Game,  the solving of the mystery of "What Am I?"


And the game itself provided meaning and purpose and enjoyment; and when  the mystery was solved within a lifetime, that embodiment lived out its  remaining years in full awareness of its identity as both a small,  separate being and as its whole, universal Self, and this state of  awareness became known among human beings as "Enlightenment."


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 22, 2014)

Chaz Ji, excellently put! It also echoes my belief about creation!! 

I have always said this is my belief about the Universe / reality: 

"We are the act of the ONE Creator, experiencing itself subjectively through it's own creation; Wherein that creation has evolved to the point of asking the very questions 'Who am I, and Why am I here?' in contemplation of itself."

Simply put:
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P.599


> ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਸੋਹੰ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥
> Ŧaṯ niranjan joṯ sabā▫ī sohaŉ bẖeḏ na ko▫ī jī▫o.
> The essence, the immaculate Lord, the Light of all - I am He and He is me - there is no difference between us.


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## chazSingh (Jul 23, 2014)

harry haller said:


> this is all quantum woo or supernatural nonsense, or something



if that's the case then Gurbani is just some sort of 'quantum woo' or 'supernatural nonsense'...because it describes pretty much the same thing...

the beauty is, if you have the will, determination, open mind...then you have all the tools to unravel this for yourself...


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## Harry Haller (Jul 23, 2014)

ok..

so I have been  put in the non spiritual camp, and this thread is about non spiritual vs spiritual, 

you spiritual guys have a hunger, a need, your empty, you want something, something to take that dark horrible abyss away, something to fill it, so you are all whole, complete, at peace. 

I am also empty, I also know about the horrible abyss, the difference is that I put myself completely in the hands of Creator and Creation to fill that hole, all I have to do is keep giving, keep being pragmatic, keep believing that I actually have a responsibility to my fellow human beings, and that my role is nothing more than enabling the comfort of such to the  best of my means, whilst also trying to provide for my family. 

If any enlightenment comes my way, it comes by way of Gurparsad, I do not seek it, nor do I can I learn it, however, I will confess that when I do dig deep, very very deep, and find something that confirms something I have learned through Gurparsad, it makes me both happy and humble.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 23, 2014)

harry haller said:


> ok..
> If any enlightenment comes my way, it comes by way of Gurparsad, I do not seek it, nor do I can I learn it, however, I will confess that when I do dig deep, very very deep, and find something that confirms something I have learned through Gurparsad, it makes me both happy and humble.


 
This to me acknowledges that you do believe in the spiritual... just that you are not looking for proof of it / you don't actively look for it, but you do acknowledge that it exists.

Those of us who are seekers, seek only because it's his will I guess.... there is an inner drive within me all my life to find truth.  But that doesn't mean those who do not actively seek for it, can not find it... because they do.  Up until I was in my teens I didn't search for anything..... it was because I was given what can only be classified as a spiritual expeirence where I experienced first hand what ONEness is, that I started to actively seek... in an almost insatiable way.  I believe that thirst for that deeper knowledge was given to me on purpose, just as much as the answer was.  

The fact that you do not seek actively for the answers, but openly say that if you experience it, you acknowledge that it exists, and by who's grace you would have received it... shows that you are not in fact, in the 'athiestic' belief group, as those would have said instead there is no creator, and therefore, there is no higher knowledge to seek or higher truth... I think actually this is more agnostic belief?  Acknowledgement of a higher power or creator, but that it is not possible to know the nature of, or experience it?? Or do I have athiestic / agnostic backwards?? (I always get them mixed up)


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## chazSingh (Jul 23, 2014)

harry haller said:


> ok..
> 
> so I have been  put in the non spiritual camp, and this thread is about non spiritual vs spiritual,
> 
> ...



not sure it's something missing, or a something i need to fill...

i would describe it as just having a hunch that 'all' is not what it seems or what i believed or was told/taught it to be...

...and a constant 'nudge' within me to go find out more...whatever that more is...

i guess that would pretty much describe us all in some way shape or form 

the problem is, there are a million things in the world that can soften the feeling of that 'nudge to seek', that can draw your attention away from the 'nudge' ... throughout my life i've felt that 'nudge' many times, but my attention was drawn to worldy dreams, adevntures, women, intoxicants, money, happiness in a worldy sense...

if you feel the nudge, never let it go...it's often a wake up call.

God Bless ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 23, 2014)

Chaz Ji..Ekannah SUTTIHN de jagai....and Let Sleeping Dogs Lie...its GURPARSAAD thats the KEY. IF HE wills it..we can get the Wake Up call...any time..and IF HE wills it..we NEVER get it...period.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 23, 2014)

I have no idea why do we feel the need to label someone about their path as a Sikh, a seeker?

Does it help us in our own Gurmat journey? I do not think so, but it may hinder us if we keep on peeping in someone else's room through their key hole.

Let's let everyone seek their own path, dance with their own drum beat rather than turning up the volume of our own 'boom box' towards them.

This attitude does not do anyone any good but it seems to be  harmful and it is also an invasion into one's personal space and journey.

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2014)

I do not see enlightenment as a spiritual experience, I would describe a spiritual experience as something that cannot be explained by science. 

The best I wish for is a deep connection to the supreme, in simple english, this does not mean walking around with a sublime smile on my face, but rather acting and thinking in the way of Creator, if I do this, I do feel a sense of connection, a sense that I am walking the right way, I find my perception increases, my ability to ready situations, people, I am less judgemental, kinder, happier, more loving, less sexual, I become a father, husband, son, brother, dog owner, friend and engineer par excellence, I move through these roles with confidence and pleasure, giving becomes a pleasure, I feel part and parcel of the world, I feel happy. 

To me this state can only come about through giving, I am unable to recreate this state through any other means, not listening to shabads, not meditation, no sitting in a Gurdwara. 

Yes we are all different, and I think we all respect each other, and I think if we were all  to stop our own methods and use anothers we would be unconnected, there is no 'your doing this wrong' I think as long as your intentions and aspirations are pure, then live, learn, progress. 

I wouldn't wish to belong to a club that would have me as a member anyway!


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 24, 2014)

Tejwant Ji I wasn't labelling anyone else when I used the word seeker... I was simply describing my own inner drive to search for Truth, it's a strong inner drive - like something / someone guiding me to actively seek it.  

I wasn't trying to call anyone else a seeker or not...  I was describing my own inner feelings in response to Harry Jis description of 'emptiness' that needs to be filled.

I don't feel empty... at all.  I am not trying to fill some empty space.  It's more a feeling like the truth is only slightly obscured, just around the corner, or only veiled by a very thin barrier.  And that I am close to it.  I actually 'feel' there is more to the world than the physical and I can't explain it... like I feel connected to what's beyond, or just out of sight.  

I also said basically the same as Gyani Ji... that inner drive I have - it's HIS will... the feeling that I feel connected to something beyond the physical I believe is  HIS will.  

So yes, I feel I can label myself as a seeker... it's the best word I can use for myself!

:grinningkaur:


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## chazSingh (Jul 24, 2014)

Akasha said:


> Tejwant Ji I wasn't labelling anyone else when I used the word seeker... I was simply describing my own inner drive to search for Truth, it's a strong inner drive - like something / someone guiding me to actively seek it.
> 
> I wasn't trying to call anyone else a seeker or not...  I was describing my own inner feelings in response to Harry Jis description of 'emptiness' that needs to be filled.
> 
> ...



seeking is a great word 

if someone doesn't have knowledge or experience of something, they go and 'seek' it

that's why if you get that 'nudge' inside of you to 'seek' then go with it...flow with it...it will take you where you need to go..


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## chazSingh (Jul 24, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I have no idea why do we feel the need to label someone about their path as a Sikh, a seeker?
> 
> Does it help us in our own Gurmat journey? I do not think so, but it may hinder us if we keep on peeping in someone else's room through their key hole.
> 
> ...




Why label a sikh as a 'seeker'?

there are constant references in Gurbani of a sikh 'seeking' the truth...the only time you stop seeking is if you know the complete truth, and first hand experience of God is obtained in this life...

until then, as Gurbani describes, we are seekers...


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## Sherdil (Jul 24, 2014)

I don't see why everyone is getting so sentimental. Everything we are discussing is written in gurbani. All you have to do is read it and you will find it, even if you weren't actively seeking it. It's just a matter of putting the puzzle together. The more pieces you figure out, the more the picture makes sense. That's been my experience anyway.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2014)

Akasha ji and Chaz ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is nothing to get upset about. You are expressing your views, myself and others are theirs'. 

Pardon my bluntness but both of you do try to 'nudge' others with subliminal taunts in your posts because their journey may be different than yours and that they are not on the right path according to you. The fault may lie on both Groups as we have been divided by one of you on the offset.

One Group may lack skills to express their path and  the Second Group may not want to give the benefit of the doubt to the other in order to further this discussion on a fruitful learning path.

Gyani ji's post to Chaz ji about Gurprasad was right spot on, and so are Harry ji's posts

As I said in the very beginning about this thread that it is a great thread, but the division started with the title and has carried on. No one can deny that.

Let's agree to disagree on our individual paths. I may be an Atheist to many, and  I do not mind that label at all because I know who I am and what kind of Seeker I want to be. 

For me Sikhi is not a religion, nor a belief system or any kind of faith because it is based on pragmatism and reasoning. Gurbani is filled with the verses that say that. It has no higher power, there is no supernatural in Sikhi, no silly mechanical rituals like Hajjs, fasting, taking dips in the holy waters, Hell or Heaven, Reincarnation and parroting for hours mindlessly. One can use any word for the latter and feel good about it. Many other religions do the same. Anyone can feel the high by using any word repeatedly irrespective of any hue, creed, faith or no faith.

Allow me to repeat. Please do not take my word for the above. Just Seek Gurbani and you shall find the answers.

I may understand Gurbani in a different way than others but that is its beauty. We all interpret any poetry in our own ways.

At this time, I am having a very healthy interaction about my thought  process regarding Gurbani and about the "Biblical Pollen" which is spread all over the translation into English.

It is between Ek Ong Kaar  Khalsa  and myself as she is on a great endeavour of translating Anand on Sikhnet.com. It is a very healthy discussion. We have become friends on FB and interact via Pms. She has not found anything wrong in my questioning her way of translating, rather thanked me in a great way  through a PM about making her see from the angle she would never have.

You should all check this out: http://www.sikhnet.com/news/anand-sahib-spiritual-maturity-first-pauree.

Their translations of Gurbani are mainly catered to one kind of people who are of non- Punjabi descent, which is fine with me but it creates many potholes at the same time. For me Translation of Gurbani should be as universal as its message, otherwise, the effort put into it becomes futile.

I would like to do the same here on SPN  but with the participation from all of you. Therefore, I seek your help in this collective project. We had planned it many times before but sadly, for many reasons, it did not come to fruition. 

We will do one Pauri at a time and would urge you all to pitch in with your own interpretation, especially when you disagree so we can refine it for ourselves with everyone's help.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 24, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Pardon my bluntness but both of you do try to 'nudge' others with subliminal taunts in your posts because their journey may be different than yours and that they are not on the right path according to you. The fault may lie on both Groups as we have been divided by one of you on the offset.



I don't think we nudge anymore than you or Gyani Ji or Harry Ji do... (and no offence meant at all)



> Just Seek Gurbani and you shall find the answers.



I do!! And have!! And also through my own experiences.... how could I ever apply Gurbani in a completely physical only way, when I have actually experienced that there is more?  It's like a kid who learns there is no Santa... you just can't go back after that! I know that my experiences are personal and I can not show others... they must experience it themselves... and I know some people would suggest I hallucinated, but I can assure you I did not.  So when you have been shown something that profound... you just can't go back to accepting a purely atheistic view of life / purpose, because you know in your inner being that the physical is not all there is. 

So I can accept that Gurbani CAN contain messages with how to live while in the physical (along with messages about the spiritual) However I just can't accept that the physical is all there is... 



> I may understand Gurbani in a different way than others but that is its beauty. We all interpret any poetry in our own ways.



Exactly!  I agree!  And that's why I said I am sure it was written the way it was on purpose,... so that meaning becomes apparent for both groups when they look for it!  Why can't two messages be superimposed on the same words?  One meaning pertaining purely to physical material life, and the other to nonphysical (spiritual) life - both messages contained in the same poetic words...


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2014)

Akasha Ji,

Guru Fateh.

Firstly, I would like to have a civilised interaction so that all of us can learn from each other's experiences. I am not interested in any *** for tat because it does not make us learn anything and hence it is futile.

You write:



> I don't think* we* nudge anymore than you or Gyani Ji or Harry Ji do... (and no offence meant at all)



Are you speaking for yourself or also for Chaz Singh? I am a bit confused here. Please clarify because I am speaking only for myself and always do. I know everyone is capable of speaking for themselves. They do not need me as their spokesperson.

I asked you to specify about your claim in this post where you claimed the same thing :



> Akasha ji writes:
> In opposition, the ONLY place I have seen those who fall into Group 1 are on this website (Tejwant Ji, Harry Ji, even spndamin Ji etc.) and whenever I see posts from them, they are adamant that their interpretation is correct and that everyone else's interpretations are wrong.





> My query:
> Would you be kind enough to elaborate the above in Bold? As far I know, I never imposed my thoughts onto anyone else but always expressed my views and asked questions about others'. I never claimed that "my way or the highway" nor did I ever claim that my interpretation is the only correct one.
> 
> I am a bit puzzled by your above claim.



And your response was this:



> Tejwant Ji,
> 
> I was not referring to you specifically, but in general, those who have claimed things like "There is no God" or "There is nothing beyond the physical" etc.



There is nothing specific about any nudging  from me, whereas you can check your own posts in this very thread where you repeatedly did the nudging.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that your claim about me is true which it is not, then if I made  a mistake, did 'my mistake' make you make a mistake on your part  too? 

Do two wrongs make anything right?



> Just Seek Gurbani and you shall find the answers.



Akasha ji,

Please do not take one part of my whole thought as a weapon but use the whole to prove your counter point. 

Here is my whole thought.



> For me Sikhi is not a religion, nor a belief system or any kind of faith because it is based on pragmatism and reasoning. Gurbani is filled with the verses that say that. It has no higher power, there is no supernatural in Sikhi, no silly mechanical rituals like Hajjs, fasting, taking dips in the holy waters, Hell or Heaven, Reincarnation and parroting for hours mindlessly. One can use any word for the latter and feel good about it. Many other religions do the same. Anyone can feel the high by using any word repeatedly irrespective of any hue, creed, faith or no faith.
> 
> Allow me to repeat. Please do not take my word for the above. *Just Seek Gurbani and you shall find the answers.*



After reading the whole thought, you will notice it has nothing to do with your response below where you are assuming/presuming lots of things about others which I have no idea where your got that from.



> I do!! And have!! And also through my own experiences.... how could I ever apply Gurbani in a completely physical only way, when I have actually experienced that there is more? It'slike a kid who learns there is no Santa... you just can't go back after that! I know that my experiences are personal and I can not show others... they must experience it themselves... and I know some people would suggest I hallucinated, but I can assure you I did not. So when you have been shown something that profound... you just can't go back to accepting a purely atheistic view of life / purpose, because you know in your inner being that the physical is not all there is.



You continue:


> So I can accept that Gurbani CAN contain messages with how to live while in the physical (along with messages about the spiritual) However I just can't accept that the physical is all there is...



No one is asking you to do that. I respect your journey and I would like you to respect mine.



> Exactly! I agree! And that's why I said I am sure it was written the way it was on purpose,... so that meaning becomes apparent for both groups when they look for it! Why can't two messages be superimposed on the same words? One meaning pertaining purely to physical material life, and the other to nonphysical (spiritual) life - both messages contained in the same poetic words...



I am sorry to say that I have no idea what you mean by the above. You have to elaborate that for me. As said before no one is criticizing anyone’s personal experiences. 

How can they? 

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 25, 2014)

SSA Tejwant ji ,
i was reading your conversation with Ek Ong Kaar Kaur ji at Sikhnet , and felt your atheistic interpretation of Gurbani can have negative impact bful art work she is doing . 

you said there
"As per my limited knowledge of Gurbani, there is no word in Gurmukhi that can be translated into 'Soul' in any context."

you have never heard "AATMA"/ਆਤਮਾ ?

its used several times in Gurbani for example on Ang 

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥  
Ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 1. 
Dhanaasaree, First Mehl:

ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾਇ 
Naḏar kare ṯā simri▫ā jā▫e.
If the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace, then one remembers Him in meditation.

ਆਤਮਾ ਦ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ 
Āṯmā ḏarvai rahai liv lā▫e. 
The soul is softened, and he remains absorbed in the Lord's Love.

ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ ॥ 
Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai. 
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥ 
Anṯar kī ḏubiḏẖā anṯar marai. ||1||
 The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||






> I would like to do the same here on SPN



its good idea ,than complaining or diverting others 

thanks


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2014)

I find myself in a state of near panic this morning, apparently there is a thousand headed serpent on the loose, I mean I know I am Sikh and should not believe in such silly things, but then my mum said that it is mentioned in the SGGS many times, so it must exist right?

Page 1322, Line 2
ਜੋਗ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਸੇਖਨਾਗੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਪਹਿ ਤਰੰਗੀ ॥
जोग गिआन धिआन सेखनागै सगल जपहि तरंगी ॥
Jog gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān sekẖnāgai sagal jāpėh ṯarangī.
Yogis, spiritual teachers, meditators and the thousand-headed serpent all meditate on the Waves of God.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

forgive me for not printing the full shabad, I just dont think I can take any more proof of thousand headed serpents!


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 25, 2014)

Harry Ji,

Your reference to serpent is different than his reference to Aatma...

I recognize that to make the point sometimes metaphor is used... but in the case of the quote he used, if it were only talking about 'mind' or 'brain' when mentioning aatma, then it would have used the same word that it used in the last line for mind would it not?  Why use several words for the same thing when you are trying to get a point across?  It just confuses it.   (I assume you mean that aatma is meaning brain or just individual thoughts?) 

Also, it's talking about duality... since in our physical world, there is no way to merge your thoughts with someone else's since its entirely your internal experience.  Why would it even make mention of merging your brain with someone elses?  It must be talking about something nonphysical...

The thing is, science already shows us that the nature of the universe is nonphsyical.... not physical.  Unless you ignore what has been discovered at the subatmic level completely.  Therefore, the nature of consciousness, is nonphysical... it's beyond the brain.  The brain is not the seat of who we are.  Why?  Because it's made up of the very same atoms, which are made up of the very same quarks and electrons (protons and nutrons break down to quarks).  They break down further to.... something which can either behave as a wave (having no substance of its own travelling thru a medium, and also as a particle. In the particle form, it seemingly disappears and reappears at random... even more, two electrons can interact at vast distances from each other and mirror their behaviour - called 'quantum entanglement'.)  

So for me, aatma is easy to understand because the very basis of the universe is nonphysical... therefore we are nonphysical in reality.  The physical is the illusion.  We are 99.9999% empty space!  And what's left randomly pops into and out of existence or behaves as a wave in one medium.  This is science... I just look beyond the marco world into the subatomic to see it.  Therefore aatma - what makes us 'us' - the 'experiencer' that is you... that is nonphysical and can merge with the one.  It's not talking about a physical brain, or even just your thoughts.  

...and I am not even going beyond what science knows! It's not science-fiction!  

So if that message DOES fit with what Gurbani is saying... why can't it be the truth?  At the same time, it can also have some physical meaning too but I doubt that it means to merge two people's brains physically.  It's talking about THE one... and merging with it.  But this is only my understanding... and I acknowledge that many people only refernce reality in the 'macro' world. And that's ok... 

Tejwant Ji,  I meant that the same shabad using metaphor can contain (obviously) meaning that pertains to interacting in the physical world... as most of you agree... and that it also in the same words can be interpreted in a spiritual or nonphysical sense.  And I only meant that it could very well have been on purpose so that everyone can find meaning in it.  Otherwise why even use metaphors that many would not be able to interpret at all?

Also, I was only saying that I am not trying to nudge anyone to my thinking, only that I want to show that my understanding of Gurbani is tangible!  I took your statement to mean that you were accusing me of trying to sway people to my understanding... and I was just pointing out that both sides of the debate do the very same thing... or appear to.  (Just look at Harry Ji's last post about the serpent... he is clearly trying to bring Harmanpreet down a few pegs by very overtly suggesting that his interpretation of Aatma is wrong.).
as a side note:  aatma is used as a term for soul in many places.  It's a widely understood term used for that part of us which is nonphysical and is our 'essence' or the 'I AM' within us. 

---

Guys this is why I put this post in this section.... both sides are very passionate about their understanding.  I just want to say that I totally respect ALL OF YOU though I may disagree with your interpretations... and consider ALL OF YOU friends!  (Just wanted to say that since this seems to be getting a bit heated) We can all agree to disagree on things... when I mentioned names in the beginning of this, it was not to accuse anyone of anything, but just to point out that there are some known members here who fall on the side of purely physical interpretation of Gurbani.  I wasn't faulting anyone for it... I just wanted to understand why they think that way.  Sorry if I took some of the comments wrong and as a personal attack (ie nudging)... if you didnt mean it that way then I appologize. I took it to mean you were accusing me of trying to sway everyone to my thinking... which I am not... I am only explaining why I interpret it the way I do...and that my interpretation is unlikely to ever change unless I somehow forget what I have experienced (and quantum physics is proven false.)


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2014)

Harmanpreet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> SSA Tejwant ji ,
> i was reading your conversation with Ek Ong Kaar Kaur ji at Sikhnet , and felt *your atheistic interpretation of Gurbani can have negative impact bful art work she is doing . *



Pardon my ignorance, but I need your help in what you said

1. What do you mean by "your atheistic interpretation of Gurbani"?

2. What kind of "negative impact" you have concluded with your own thought process it may have? 

Please elaborate this without having an inkling of the personal PM's about this subject  between Ik Ong Kaar Khalsa and myself



> you said there
> "As per my limited knowledge of Gurbani, there is no word in Gurmukhi that can be translated into 'Soul' in any context."



Yes I did.



> you have never heard "AATMA"/ਆਤਮਾ ?
> 
> its used several times in Gurbani for example on Ang



The Ang is missing but I know the Shabad quite well. It is on Ang 661.

I am glad you brought this up. You are proving exactly my point about the “Biblical Pollen” sprinkled all over the translation in English of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Now let's go to your main point:

Yes, I have seen,read and studied the word"AATMA"/ਆਤਮਾ.

Do you know how many times the word"AATMA"/ਆਤਮਾ  is used in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?

Only 12 times.

If according to you,"its used several times in Gurbani", then it is fine with me, if several means only 12 times in 1429 Angs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. 

Do you how many times the word Soul is used in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

1315 times.

How many "several times" is the word Soul used in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then according to you?

According to your reasoning, these two words mean the same. If they do mean the same and according to you they do, then why is there this discrepancy in huge numbers between the two in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Please explain that.




> ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
> Ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 1.
> Dhanaasaree, First Mehl:
> 
> ...



All the above translation you have posted is what my very fruitful interaction has been about with Ik Ong Kaar Khalsa. Please read her last post on Sikhnet addressed to me and make your own conclusion of the "Negative Impact". 

Sadly, my last post to which she responded to disappeared in the ether and I do not have another copy of it.

I would like to know what your own understanding of the whole Shabad is without any "Biblical Pollen" and more importantly, the meaning of ਆਤਮਾ according to your knowledge of Gurbani.

Lastly, coming back to *Anand*, the main point of interaction between Ik Ong Kaar Khalsa and myself, please tell me *what is ਆਤਮਾ in the First Pauri of Anand according to her,* the real subject in discussion?



> its good idea ,than complaining or diverting others



I am sorry to say I am a bit puzzled by your above claim. Please elaborate it if you do not mind.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2014)

Akasha ji,

Guru Fateh.

I will only take the last paragraph of your post and say a thing or two about what is in *bold*.



> Guys this is why I put this post in this section.... both sides are very passionate about their understanding. I just want to say that I totally respect ALL OF YOU though I may disagree with your interpretations... and consider ALL OF YOU friends! (Just wanted to say that since this seems to be getting a bit heated) We can all agree to disagree on things... *when I mentioned names in the beginning of this, it was not to accuse anyone of anything, but just to point out that there are some known members here who fall on the side of purely physical interpretation of Gurbani.* I wasn't faulting anyone for it... I just wanted to understand why they think that way. Sorry if I took some of the comments wrong and as a personal attack (ie nudging)... if you didnt mean it that way then I appologize. I took it to mean you were accusing me of trying to sway everyone to my thinking... which I am not... I am only explaining why I interpret it the way I do...and that my interpretation is unlikely to ever change unless I somehow forget what I have experienced (and quantum physics is proven false.)



Akasha ji,

How do you know that,*"some known members here who fall on the side of purely physical interpretation of Gurbani"*?

As it is a personal experience, none of us can ever find out about anyone else's, what is "only physical or only Spiritual or both hopscotching in one's mind". This is the beauty of Sikhi. As long as we follow Gurbani according to our own understanding and breed goodness within to share with others, we have achieved the same goal/end irrespective of the means and how we understand Gurbani.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: I love Quantum Physics and I wrote something about it in connection with Gurbani many years ago. I will try to find it and post it here.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 25, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Akasha ji,
> How do you know that,*"some known members here who fall on the side of purely physical interpretation of Gurbani"*?
> 
> PS: I love Quantum Physics and I wrote something about it in connection with Gurbani many years ago. I will try to find it and post it here.



Tejwant Ji, I was only going by what people post... and have said outright at points over the last few years I have been here.  (pls don't ask me to dig them all out of past posts lol it would be tedious) but yes, at times people have actually stated they do not believe in more than what their 5 senses allow them to experience.  A few have said outright they are atheist... a few other agnostic.  etc.  

I guess the difference between my interpretation and some others, is that my understanding of 'spirit' etc. are not supernatural at all (though I can see how others might think so without knowing the science behind it)... but in my mind this is the natural state of things - and yes I rely heavily on quantum physics... to me the physical is what is baffling!! To me, it's amazing we don't fall right through a chair when we sit down since we are nearly all empty space - and so is the chair!  It's the fields that are holding us together and interacting with other fields... so when I look at a physical object, in my mind I see all the empty space, and the electromagnetic fields, and the vibrations...  I see these more than I see the solid object.  I have started to actually view the entire world in this way!  As something intrinsically nonphysical.  To me 'physical' is only a perception.  There's nothing supernatural or magical about my views.  Its just that the world is strange and awesome when we peer at the tiniest of levels where everything comes together! 



I also read an excellent pdf that someone wrote awhile back linking many ideas found in Gurbani with quantum physics theories and observations.  It was REALLY interesting!  I will try to find it again and also post it as well! And I am interested in your paper as well!


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2014)

taken from the link supplied by Tejwantji



> Yet there is a problem here. How realistic is it for mothers to see their sons or daughters in this light? Especially if no one ever saw these mothers in that light to begin with? In the Kaliyug, it is quite difficult. What are the circumstances of the pregnancy? What is the experience of birth? Is the woman in secure and graceful environments? What was the emotional and mental state of the mother during pregnancy and birth? For many people, the mother was not in a position to vibrate these key lessons towards the newly born soul, even though that is what the soul actually needed.
> 
> However, the gift of the Anand Sahib is that is can allow us to rewrite the lessons that we did not get along the way. If your relationship with your mother is damaged, if she could not simply behold you as a soul with a destiny of your own, with a purpose to become learned and grow, it is all right. By meditating on this first Pauree of the Anand Sahib, the imprint can come. By reciting it a minimum of 11 times a day, it has the capacity to rewrite your relationship with your first teacher, your mother, and realign the foundation of your life.



I do not find anything in the above consistent with either the message of Sikhism or the spirit of Sikhism, 

I think all it does is invent problems for people so that invented solutions can be implemented. 

we are not Hindus, we do not blame our past lives for our problems, no, we blame our mothers!

but its ok!

just mumble this 11 times a day and everything will be ok!


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2014)

harry haller said:


> taken from the link supplied by Tejwantji
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said.

You should check on Sikhnet on Anand page, where there is a made up Sakhi about how Anand got started which I did not even want to touch because we all know that 3HO is a cult and their lingo about translating Gurbani is to steer people towards "Meditation and Kundalini Yoga". This is their business model that rakes millions of dollars and creates self employed people under this umbrella for the same lot. So, Sikhi and their Baana are the "window decorations" to attract people into their "store" for the financial gain.

Sadly, my last detailed comment got deleted somehow when she put the response where she called me a ''Scholar of my own right" which is personally offencive to me and I told her the same via PM. I am just a Sikh who loves Gurbani and thinks aloud. She was full of compliments because as it is my habit, to respond by each paragraph or sentence which conveys my thought.

3HO's  "Sikhi mindset" is like a sieve and they need people like her to pour some "Sikhi Potion" into the sieve so that it can be "injected" right in the right parts of the brain. In fact, she has become a great friend of mine, so to speak after reading many of my past articles which she must have googled, hence out relationship has more respect. As my name is Teji Malik on FB and all these sites are connected to it now, which I do not like, she addressed me as Tejinder in her first post but It was OK for me. I did not take that as an offence. In my response I gave her the right name.

Perhaps, she sees me a different kind of Punjabi than her imagery about us.

I am planning to spend sometime to rewrite what I wrote in my now missing post and send it to her so that she can post her response which she deleted after seeing my post missing. It is quite strange because I got a notification about 45 minutes after I had posted my response that she had done the same but there was nothing to be found and I asked her via PM about it. She gave me something like that and I am paraphrasing it, "May be the Universe wanted me to rewrite the post and I will rewrite it later today". Well, when she eventually posted it the next day, it had the same time stamped on it as my initial notification. This disappearance is all that baffling because she is the Coordinator of Sikhnet. I even asked her to ask Gurumustuk who is known as Mr. Sikhnet and has done a great job on the site to retrieve my post. There was no response but she deleted her own which was the response to mine too,which is understable.

I have the inkling that these Sikhnet people of the newer "breed" know my family and me very well and how "close" Yogi Bhajan, his wife and my family were and at times I personally saved him acting as a mediator from lots of not so savoury moments along with my brothers from Canada and in Los Angeles. He used to come to my brother's house in LA very often but used to call him before knocking at his door and also myself so I could be there whenever he was in trouble which was not rare.

I used to write on Sikhnet but I do not anymore. This particular endeavour caught my eye which is a wonderful effort I must add.

It will be an interesting dialogue because I do not want them to "pimp" Sikhi via Gurbani as their business model to get more recruits for this pyramid scheme of theirs.

As I said earlier, let's do the  Anand's interpretation here from our own Gurmat thought process as a comparative endeavour. 

For this great project, I would like Sahni Sahib to take the helm and we will all be the rowers of this Sikhi Ship.

So Sahni Sahib, I urge you to give this project a jump start by sharing your understanding about the first Pauri of Anand and then we will all pitch in and refine it collectively. 

In order to do that, I would request Aman ji to create a special section for all those interested in it by PMing him so that he can add us to the list. This will be only our section before we are ready to post the finished product on SPN for all. I would urge as many people as we can to volunteer for this project because as we can never fill the void left by our sister/mentor Narayanjot ji, the least we can do is to follow on her foot steps. She has left us a great treasure trove for that and let's take the best out of it for our own personal journeys. This will the first one with many others to come.

I would also urge "all groups" to join in where we can marry both Physical and Spiritual- Miri- Piri concept into the interpretation.

This is our immediate SPN project. Let's all dive into this pool of nectar together.

I apologise for the long post.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 26, 2014)

Tejwant Ji

You make a start on anand sahib and I will contribute my undertanding


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2014)

Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

I can do that. Let's wait for the participants and create a special section which I am sure Aman ji would not mind, so that we can sort out the disagreements there before posting the finished product here.

All those who want to pitch in, please let us know in this thread. The more the merrier because we are all here to learn from each other.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2014)

Im in


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 27, 2014)

There was this guy, a scientist from Surat named Vasu Bhardwaj who was diagnsoed with Bone Marrow Cancer and having failed to cure himself he came to Darbar sahib Amrtisar to lsiten to a specially arranged Akhand Paath arrnaged by the Late sant Singh maskeen. Shortly afetr this man declared he was CURED by Gurbani..Overnight Gurbani recitation camps called Sarb Rog ka Aukhad Naam (Naam CURES ALL) sprang up to entice seriously ill patients to SHUN medicine and recite Gurbani isntead..Maskeen gave his weight to this campaign....

When Vasu DIED from the Cancer as he was sure to....it was kept QUIET. Every effort even by maskeen was on keepingt he MYTH of Gurbani recitations to CURE physical diseases...INDEED had Vasu cheated DEATh and remained ALIVE..The Gurmatt principles of Guru nanak Ji would ahve FAILED..but vasu DIED..and HUKM RAZAII Challnna rings true...Gurbani recitation CANNOT regrow the severed foot of a diabetic...it cannot restore the eyes gouged out...it cannot cure CANCER..or TB..or Cholera..Or diarrheoa..or Plague..all those NEED Medicines and emdical care..What Gurbani Can indeed CURE is LOBH, hankaar, Haumai, Maann, Kaam Krodh, Lust, Greed, bad HABITS of the MANN....the Physical Body is in the realm of PHYSICS...Gurbani is NOT for the BODY..its Food of the MIND...Mann....People like MASKEEN ji can be seen FALLING for thsi fake nonsense..so be aware..and beware...

*ਰਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਾੜ - ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦਵਾਜ*






ਕਹਿੰਦੇ  ਨੇ ਝੂਠ ਦੇ ਪੈਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦੇ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਝੂਠ ਕੋਈ ਲੂਲ੍ਹਾ  ਲੰਗੜਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ  ਹੈ। ਝੂਠ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਪਹੀਏ ਤੇ  ਮੋਢਿਆਂ ਉਪਰ  ਖੰਭ ਜੋੜੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਫਿਰ ਝੂਠ ਦੀ ਕੀ ਮਜਾਲ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਕਿਤੇ ਰੁਕ ਜਾਵੇ,  ਜੰਗਲ ਦੀ ਅੱਗ  ਵਾਂਗੂ ਫੈਲਦਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਕ ਸਮੱਸਿਆ ਹੋਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਝੂਠ  ਮਾਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ  ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਬਣਾ ਸੰਵਾਰ ਕੇ ਪੇਸ਼ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਅਕਸਰ ਲੋਕ ਭੁਲੇਖਾ ਖਾ  ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।

ਗਿਆਨੀ  ਸੰਤ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਸਕੀਨ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦਾ। ਉਹਨੇ ਨੇ ਥਾਂ  ਥਾਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ  ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਸਮਝਾਏ। ਪਰ ਜਿਹੜੀ ਗ਼ਲਤੀ  ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ  ਦੇ ਕੇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੀਤੀ ਉਹ ਨਾ ਭੁੱਲਣਯੋਗ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਨੇ ਆਮ ਜਨ  ਸਾਧਾਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ  ਅਸਲ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਤੋਂ ਦੂਰ ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ। ਸਿਆਣੇ ਸਿਆਣੇ ਲੋਕ  ਟੱਪਲਾ ਖਾ ਗਏ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ  ਅਸਲ ਸਮਝਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹ ਤੋਂ ਭਟਕ ਗਏ। ਅੱਜ ਸਿਖ  ਸਾਈਟਾਂ ਉਪਰ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਦਾ  ਨਾਂ ਆਮ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਅਸਲ  ਵਿੱਚ ਸਾਰੀ  ਕਹਾਣੀ ਸਿੱਧੇ ਸਾਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਹੈ। ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਨਾਂ  ਦਾ ਇਕ  ਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਪਤਰਿਕਾ ਦਾ ਸੰਪਾਦਕ ਸੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਅਚਾਨਕ ਪਤਾ ਲਗਿਆ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਇਕ ਕੈਂਸਰ  ਵਰਗੀ  ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਮਲਟੀਪਲ ਮਾਈਲੋਮਾ ਨਾਲ ਪੀੜਤ ਹੈ। ਟੈਸਟ ਹੋਏ, ਇਲਾਜ ਹੋਏ ਤੇ ਤਕਰੀਬਨ ਲਾ  ਇਲਾਜ  ਹੋਣ ਦੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹ ਸੱਜਣ ਸੰਗੀਆਂ ਸਨੇਹੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਸਲਾਹ ਨਾਲ ਸੂਰਤ ਤੋਂ  ਸ਼੍ਰੀ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰ ਆ ਗਏ, ਇਸ ਉਮੀਦ ਨਾਲ ਕਿ ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਕਿਸੇ ਧਾਰਮਕ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਨਾਲ ਇਹ ਰੋਗ  ਮੁਕਤ ਹੋ  ਜਾਣ।

ਉਹ  ਆਪਣੀ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਪ ਦਸਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਖਾਸ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਉਪਰ  ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਤਖਤ ਦੇ  ਨੇੜੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਕਮਰੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਟਰੈਚਰ ਉਪਰ ਲੇਟੇ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ ਪਾਠ ਸੁਣਿਆ।  ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ  ਹੋਇਆ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਪਾਠ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਦਿੱਖ ਜੋਤ ਨਾਲ ਛੋਹ ਗਏ ਹਨ  ਤੇ ਸਿਹਤਮੰਦ ਹੋ ਗਏ  ਹਨ। ਪਾਠ ਖਤਮ ਹੁੰਦਿਆਂ ਹੁੰਦਿਆਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਅਰੋਗ  ਘੋਸ਼ਿਤ ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ  ਤੇ ਫੇਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਇਸ ਅਨੋਖੇ ਅਨੁਭਵ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਖ ਸਟੇਜਾਂ ਉਪਰ ਐਲਾਨੀਆ ਸੁਣਾ  ਕੇ ਸੰਗਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਵਾਇਆ। ਇਸ ਸਾਰੇ ਵਕਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਸ. ਸੰਤ ਸਿੰਘ  ਮਸਕੀਨ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ  ਨਾਲ ਰਹੇ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਤਕਰੀਬਨ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਥਾਂਵਾਂ ਉਪਰ  ਕੀਤਾ। ਇਹ ਸਾਲ  2002 ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ।

ਸਿੱਖਾਂ  ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ ਘਟਨਾ ਨਾਲ ਇਕ ਕ੍ਰਾਂਤੀ  ਹੀ ਆ ਗਈ। ਸਰਬ ਰੋਗ ਕਾ ਅਉਖਦ ਨਾਮ ਕਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ  ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਚੁਕਿਆ ਤੇ  ਸੰਗਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਗਿਆਨਕ – ਮੈਡੀਕਲ ਇਲਾਜ ਤੋਂ  ਹਟਾ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਕੈਂਪਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ  ਲਿਆ ਕੇ ਬਿਠਾ ਦਿਤਾ। ਸੰਤਾਂ ਬਾਬਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵੀ  ਚੜ੍ਹਾਈ ਹੋ ਗਈ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ  ਵੈਬਸਾਈਟਾਂ ਉਪਰ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਦਾ ਮੀਂਹ  ਵਰ੍ਹਾ ਦਿਤਾ। ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਦੀ  ਸਰਚ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ  ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਯੂ ਟਿਊਬ ਉਪਰ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਵੀਡੀਓ ਵੀ  ਦੇਖਣ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਵੇਗੀ। ਸੱਭ ਥਾਂ ਇਹ  ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਕੈਂਸਰ ਵਰਗੇ ਨਾਮੁਰਾਦ ਰੋਗ  ਤੋਂ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਨਾਲ ਅਰੋਗ  ਹੋ ਗਿਆ।

ਵਿਗਿਆਨ  ਪਿਛੇ ਰਹਿ ਗਿਆ।  ਕੁਦਰਤ ਵੀ ਪਾਸੇ ਹੋ ਗਈ। ਤੇ ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ। ਅੰਧ  ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਨਾਂ ਕਿਤਾਬ  ਵਿੱਚ ਰਾਬਰਟ ਇੰਗਰਸੋਲ ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਆਖਦੇ  ਹਨ – ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਵਿਅਕਤੀ  ਅਜਿਹਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਚਕਰ ਬਣਾ ਲਵੇ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਵਿਆਸ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਘੇਰੇ ਨਾਲੋਂ  ਅੱਧਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ  ਰੇਖਾ ਗਣਿਤ ਦੀ ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ। ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹਾਈਡਰੋਜਨ, ਨਾਈਟਰੋਜਨ  ਤੇ ਆਕਸੀਜਨ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਾ  ਕੇ ਸ਼ੁੱਧ ਸੋਨਾ ਬਣਾ ਦੇਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਰਸਾਇਣ ਸ਼ਾਸ਼ਤਰ ਵਿੱਚ  ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ। ਚਨੁਕਰੀ  ਤਿਕੋਣ ਬਣਾਉਣਾ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਹੈਰਾਨੀਜਨਕ ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ।

ਹਰ ਉਹ  ਵਿਅਕਤੀ  ਅੰਧ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਮੂਲ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਤੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ  ਦੀ ਪਰਵਾਹ  ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ। ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਮੂਲ ਨਿਯਮ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੇ ਹੋਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਏ ਹਨ। ਹਰ ਘਟਨਾ  ਦੇ ਪਿਛੇ ਇਕ  ਕਾਰਨ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਹਰ ਕਾਰਨ ਦੇ ਪਿਛੇ ਇਕ ਘਟਨਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹੋ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ  ਚਲਦਾ ਆ ਰਿਹਾ  ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਤੱਕ ਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਦੀ ਗੁੱਥੀ ਪੁਰੀ ਤਰਹਾਂ ਸੁਲਝਾ ਨਹੀਂ  ਲੈਂਦਾ ਉਦੋਂ  ਤੱਕ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਜਿਹੀ ਗੱਲ ਉਪਰ ਯਕੀਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਜੋ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਦੇ  ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਅਨੁਕੂਲ  ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ, ਅੰਧ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਹੈ।
 ਅੱਜ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਕਿਥੇ ਹਨ।  ਸਾਲ 2002-03 ਤੋਂ  ਬਾਅਦ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਉਲੇਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ। ਉਹ ਅੱਜ ਕਲ੍ਹ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਦਾ  ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਿਉਂ ਨਹੀਂ  ਕਰ ਰਹੇ? ਇਸ ਸਵਾਲ ਦਾ ਜਵਾਬ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਖੁਦ ਜਾਣਨ ਲਈ ਮੈਂ  ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਉਸ ਨੰਬਰ ਉਪਰ  ਫੋਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਿਹੜਾ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿਖ ਵੈਬਸਾਇਟ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ  ਮਿਲਿਆ।

§  (Mr Vasu Bhardwaj, Journalist, Science Writer, Corporate Analyst
 §  Address: 701-Chinmaya Apartment, Anand Mahal Road, Behind Bhulka Bhavan, Adajan, Surat, Gujarat-395009
 §  Tel: 0261 – 2690033, 0261 - 224 00 99 Mobile: 09825113636 E-mail vasuamerica@yahoo.com)

ਮੈਂ ਉਸ  ਦੇ ਮੋਬਾਇਲ ਨੰਬਰ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਕੀਤੀ। ਫੋਨ ਸੂਰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੂਜੇ ਵਿਅਕਤੀ  ਨੇ  ਚੁੱਕਿਆ। ਫੋਨ ਸੁਣਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੇ ਦਸਿਆ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਫੋਨ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਦਾ ਸੀ ਪਰ   ਹੁਣ ਇਹ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਲਾਟ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਮੈਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਬਾਰੇ   ਪੁਛਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਸਿਆ ਕਿ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਹੁਣ ਇਸ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਨ।  ਮੈਂ   ਉਹਨਾਂ ਬਾਰੇ ਹੋਰ ਜਾਣਨਾ ਚਾਹਿਆ। ਇੰਟਰਨੈਟ ਉਪਰ ਹੀ ਮੋਜੂਦ ਇਕ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਸਰੋਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ   ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਪਤਾ ਲਗਿਆ ਕਿ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ 2006 ਵਿੱਚ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਸੀ ਤੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ   ਕਰਨ ਵੀ ਉਹੋ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਸੀ ਜਿਸ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਪੀੜਤ ਸਨ ਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਉਹ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਸਨ ਕਿ   ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣਨ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਅਰੋਗ ਹੋ ਗਏ ਹਨ।

ਆਖਰ ਇਸ  ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਨਾਂ  ਹੈ? ਇਸ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਲਟੀਪਲ ਮਾਈਲੋਮਾ (MULTIPLE MYELOMA)  ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ  ਵਿੱਚ ਹੱਡੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਮੋਜੂਦ ਬੋਨ ਮੈਰੋ (bone marrow) ਵਿੱਚ ਖੂਨ  ਬਣਨ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਕ੍ਰਿਆ  ਵਿੱਚ ਦੋਸ਼ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕੈਂਸਰ ਬਾਰੇ ਲੋਕ ਬਹੁਤ ਘੱਟ ਜਾਣਦੇ  ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਅਸਲ ਵਿੱਚ  ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਮੂਲ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਕਾਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਵਿਗਾੜ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਵਿਗਾੜ ਦਾ ਜੇ  ਪਹਿਲੇ ਪਤਾ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ  ਤਾਂ ਰੇਡਿਓ ਥੈਰਾਪੀ ਨਾਲ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਸ਼ਟ ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ  ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਜਦੋਂ ਪਤਾ ਲਗਦਾ  ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਦੇਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਸਰਿਰ ਦੇ ਹਰ ਅੰਗ ਵਿੱਚ  ਇਸ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਵੱਖ ਵੱਖ  ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਿਤੇ ਇਹ ਸੈਲ ਵਿਭਾਜਨ ਬਹੁਤ ਤੇਜ਼ੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੁੰਦਾ  ਹੈ ਪਰ ਕਈ ਥਾਂਵਾਂ ਤੇ ਇਸ  ਦੀ ਰਫਤਾਰ ਬਹੁਤ ਮੰਦ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਅਜਿਹੇ ਕੇਸਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ  ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਲੰਮੀ ਉਮਰ ਤਕ ਚਲਦੀ ਹੈ।  ਇਹ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦਾ ਨਿਯਮ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਰੋਕਣਾ ਅਸਭੰਵ  ਹੈ। ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਜਦੋਂ ਤੱਕ  ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਮੋਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਖਤਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ  ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਪਰ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਖਤਮ  ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਵਿਗਿਆਨਕ ਵਿਧੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਇਲਾਜ ਕਰਨਾ  ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਅੱਜ  ਵਿਗਿਆਨ  ਨੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਕਾਰਗਰ ਤਰੀਕੇ ਨਾਲ ਬੀਮਾਰੀਆਂ ਬਾਰੇ ਜਾਣ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨਾਂ  ਦੀ  ਪੁਣਛਾਣ ਤੇ ਪੜਤਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਆਦਤ ਪਾ ਲਈ ਹੈ। ਦਵਾਈਆਂ ਵੀ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ  ਹੀ  ਦਿਤੀਆ ਜਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਮੈਡੀਕਲ ਸਾਇੰਸ ਦੀ ਬਦੌਲਤ ਬੀਮਾਰੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਲੱਭ ਕੇ  ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ  ਰੋਕ ਥਾਮ ਵੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਸੱਭ ਕੁਝ ਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਨੇ ਸੰਭਵ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ,  ਕਿਸੇ ਧਰਮ  ਜਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਦੇਣ  ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਪਿਛੇ ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਲੰਮੀ ਘਾਲਨਾ  ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ  ਫਲ ਅੱਜ ਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਮਨੁੱਖਤਾ ਤੱਕ ਪੁਚਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ  ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਜਾਂ  ਬਾਣੀ ਜਾਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ। ਵਸੂ  ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਦਾ ਕੇਸ ਸਿਖ  ਸਟੇਜਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਸਰਬ ਰੋਗ ਕੋ ਅਉਖੁਦ ਨਾਲ, ਨਾਮ  ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਅਭਿਆਸ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ  ਕਰਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਚਾਂਦੀ ਹੋ ਗਈ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਜਗ੍ਹਾ ਜਗ੍ਹਾ  ਵੱਡੇ ਵਡੇ ਕੈਂਪ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ  ਨੂੰ ਰੋਗ ਮੁਕਤ ਹੋਣ ਦਾ ਲਾਲਚ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਆਡੰਬਰ ਰਚੇ। ਇਸ  ਵਿੱਚ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸੰਤ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਸਕੀਨ  ਨੇ ਵੀ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡਾ ਰੋਲ ਅਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ। ਉਸ ਨੇ ਵਸੂ  ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਨੂੰ ਸਟੇਜਾਂ ਉਪਰ ਇਕ ਸਬੂਤ  ਵੱਜੋਂ ਪੇਸ਼ ਕੀਤਾ। ਇਸ ਨਾਲ ਭੋਲੇ ਭਾਲੇ ਲੋਕ  ਵਰਗਲਾਏ ਗਏ ਤੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਮਾਂ, ਸਾਧਨ  ਤੇ ਧਨ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਾਧੂ ਨਿਰਾਰਥਕ ਕੰਮਾਂ  ਵਿੱਚ ਖਰਚ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ। ਕੁਝ ਥਾਂਵਾਂ ਤੇ  ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਵੀ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਲਈ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਨਾ ਦਾ  ਸੋਮਾ ਬਣਿਆ।

ਮੇਰੇ  ਇਕ ਹੋਰ ਮਿਤਰ  ਹਨ ਉਹ ਰੇਕੀ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਵੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਪੈਥੀ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਕਾਰਗਰ  ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ। ਉਹਨਾਂ  ਨੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕਿਹਾ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਇਕ ਅੰਗਰੇਜ਼ੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਰਥਨਾ ਵਰਗੀ  ਕਵਿਤਾ ਦਾ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ  ਅਨੁਵਾਦ ਕਰ ਦਿਆਂ। ਮੈਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਗਿਆਨਕ ਵਿਧੀ ਵੱਲ ਲੈ ਜਾਣ  ਦੀ ਬੜੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼  ਕੀਤੀ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਸਮਝਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਯਤਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਪਰ ਉਹ  ਆਪਣੀ ਥਾਂ ਤੇ ਅੜੇ  ਰਹੇ। ਉਹ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਕਿ ਅਸੀਂ ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਾਰਥਨਾ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ  ਤੇ ਵਰਤਣ ਦੀ  ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਯਤਨ ਬਹੁਤ ਅਸਰਦਾਇਕ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ। ਅਜਿਹੇ ਬਹੁਤ  ਸਾਰੇ ਪਾਠਕਾਂ ਦੀ  ਜਾਣਕਾਰੀ ਹਿਤ ਮੈਂ ਦਸਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੋੜ  ਤੋਂ ਬਣੇ ਹੋਏ)  ਸਿਰਫ ਅਵਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਕ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਈ ਅਰਥ ਨਹੀਂ  ਰੱਖਦੇ ਜਿੰਨਾ ਚਿਰ  ਉਹ ਕਿਸੇ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਨਾਲ ਨਾ ਜੁੜੇ ਹੋਣ। ਈਂਘਮਨੋਂਗਾ ਇਕ ਅਜਿਹਾ ਹੀ  ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ  ਅਰਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਨਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਜੁੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ, ਜੇ ਕੋਈ  ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੂੰ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ  ਜਾਂ ਇਕ ਵਾਰ ਪੜ੍ਹੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ  ਮਹੱਤਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।

ਸ਼ਬਦ,  ਅਵਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਸਮਝਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਇਹ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਉਂਦੇ  ਹਨ।  ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਮੰਤਰ ਗੁਰਮੰਤਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ। ਜਿਹੜੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ  ਸਮਝ  ਨਾ ਆਵੇ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਅਰਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ। ਜਿਹੜੇ ਲੋਕ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਮੰਤਰ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ   ਉਹ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਭੋਲੇਪਨ ਦਾ ਫਾਇਦਾ ਲੈ ਰਹੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਮੂਰਖ ਬਣਾ ਰਹੇ   ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਸੰਚਾਰ ਦੇ ਸਾਧਨ ਵਜੋਂ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਜੋ   ਅਵਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਕ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਬਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਕਿਸੇ ਸੰਕਲਪ   ਨਾਲ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ ਅਰਥ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਅੱਖਰ ਜਾਂ ਅਵਾਜ਼ ਮੰਤਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣਦਾ ਤੇ ਉਸ   ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਆ ਸਕਦੀ। ਖੀਰ ਦੇ ਖ ਤੇ ਰ ਨੂੰ ਜਪਣ ਨਾਲ ਖੀਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣ ਸਕਦੀ   ਤੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਿਠਾਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਆ ਸਕਦੀ। ਖੀਰ ਦਾ ਸਵਾਦ ਲੈਣ ਲਈ ਖੀਰ ਖਾਣੀ ਹੀ ਪਵੇਗੀ।  ਸੋ  ਇਸ ਚੀਜ਼ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਲੈਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਭਲਾਈ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ  ਦੇ  ਅਰਥਾਂ ਦੀ ਸਮਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਗਲ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਉਪਰ ਅਸਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ  ਸਕਦੀ।  ਧਿਆਨ ਦੇਣ ਯੋਗ ਗਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਤੇ ਖਾਸ ਕਰ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ  ਦੇ ਕਿਸੇ  ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਸਮਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਸੋ ਬਿਨਾਂ ਸਮਝ ਤੋਂ ਉਸ ਉਪਰ ਕੋਈ ਅਸਰ ਹੋਣਾ  ਅਣਕਿਆਸੀ  ਗੱਲ ਹੈ।
 ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਦਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ  ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਦੀ ਹੀ  ਗੱਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਦਾ ਆਧੁਨਿਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ  ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ  ਬਹੁਤ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਇਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ ਮਹੱਤਵ ਰੱਖਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਕਿਉਂ  ਕਿ ਇਸ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ  ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਂਡ ਤੇ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇ ਲੁਕਾਈ  ਨੂੰ ਸਿਧਾ ਸਾਦਾ ਤੇ  ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੀਣ ਦਾ ਰਾਹ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ। ਇਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਦੀ ਕ੍ਰਾਂਤੀ  ਸੀ। ਇਸ ਦਾ ਲਾਭ  ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਤੇ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਸੀ ਨਾ ਕਿ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ।  ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ  ਸੁਣਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਅਪਣਾਉਣਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਕਿਹਾ  ਗਿਆ ਹੈ।  ਸਪਸ਼ਟ  ਹੈ ਕਿ ਪੈਰਾਸੀਟਾਮੋਲ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਜਾਂ ਜਪ ਕੇ ਬੁਖਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ  ਘਟਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ।  ਬੁਖਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਰਾਹਤ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਦਵਾਈ ਕਾਣੀ ਹੀ ਪੈਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ  ਦੇ ਕੇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਹ  ਪੈਰਾਸੀਟਾਮੋਲ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਰਾਜ਼ੀ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ।

ਹਰ ਉਸ  ਵਿਅਕਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀ  ਆਖਣਾ ਸਰਾਸਰ ਮੂਰਖਤਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਹੋਣੀ ਨਿਯਮ ਉਪਰ ਨਹੀਂ  ਚਲਦਾ। ਉਹ ਅੰਧ  ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀ ਨਹੀਂ। ਵਸੂ ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀ  ਨਹੀ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾ  ਸਕਦਾ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਅੰਧ ਵਿਸਵਾਸ ਲਈ ਕੋਈ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ। ਅੰਧ  ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸੀ ਲਈ ਵੀ। ਉਹ  ਸਾਰੇ ਲੋਕ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਉਪਰ ਤੋਤਾ ਰਟਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਉਹ ਵੀ  ਵਸੂ ਦੀ ਹੀ ਸ਼੍ਰੇਣੀ ਦੇ  ਭਾਈਵਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ। ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਵਿੱਚ  ਕਦੇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ,  ਸਿਮਰਨ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਨ, ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਹੀ  ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ  ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣਨ ਲਈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ।

ਦੂਜੀ  ਗੱਲ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਨੂੰ  ਨਾ ਤਾਂ ਬਦਲਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਉਸ ਤੋਂ ਉਲਟ ਜਾਇਆ  ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਲੱਤ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਤੇ  ਬਾਂਹ ਤੇ ਬਾਂਹ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਸਿਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਗਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ।  ਅਜਿਹਾ ਸੋਚਣਾ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ  ਤੋਂ ਉਲਟ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ। ਬਿਨਾਂ ਦਵਾਈ ਤੋਂ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ  ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ। ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਕਿਸੇ  ਮੰਤਰ ਨਾਲ ਦੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ। ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਦਾ ਉਪਚਾਰ  ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਬਹੁਤ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ  ਬੀਮਾਰੀਆਂ ਇਕ ਦਮ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਜਾਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੱਢ  ਦੇਂਦੀਆਂ, ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਈ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ  ਸੰਭਾਵਨਾਵਾਂ ਮੋਜੂਦ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਕੈਂਸਰ ਵੀ ਹੌਲੀ  ਹੌਲੀ ਘਾਤਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਹੁੰਚਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਵਸੂ  ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਉਸੇ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਤੋਂ ਹੋਈ ਜਿਸ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਪੀੜਤ ਸੀ? ਕੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ  ਦਾ  ਚਮਤਕਾਰ ਰੁਕ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ? ਕੀ ਉਸ ਚਮਤਕਾਰ ਨੇ, ਜਿਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਵਧਾ ਚੜ੍ਹਾ ਕੇ ਦੱਸਿਆ   ਗਿਆ, ਬੰਦ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ? ਕੀ 2002 ਤੋਂ ਬਾਦ ਚਮਤਕਾਰ ਹੋਣੇ ਬੰਦ ਹੋ ਗਏ ਹਨ? ਇਹ ਕੁਝ   ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ ਹਨ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਜਵਾਬ ਹਰ ਅੰਧ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸੀ ਨੂੰ ਲੱਭ ਕੇ ਦੇਣਾ ਪਵੇਗਾ।

ਮੈਨੂੰ  ਜਦੋਂ ਇਹ ਸੱਭ ਕੁਝ ਪਤਾ ਲਗਿਆ, ਤਕਰੀਬਨ ਤਿੰਨ ਸਾਲ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ, ਇਸੇ ਫੇਸ ਬੁੱਕ ਉਪਰ  ਇਕ  ਬਹੁਤ ਬਹਿਸ ਹੋਈ ਤੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਇਕ ਟਿਪਣੀ ਬਹੁਤ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵਸ਼ਾਲੀ ਸੀ। ‘ ਜੇ ਵਸੂ  ਭਾਰਦ੍ਵਾਜ  ਜੀਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਫੇਲ੍ਹ ਹੋ ਜਾਣਾ ਸੀ। ਉਸ ਦੀ  ਮੌਤ ਨਾਲ  ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮ ਵਾਲਾ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ‘ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜ ਆਪੁ ਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ’ ਬਚ  ਗਿਆ।
 Posted 3rd August 2012 by Gurdip Singh Bhamra


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 27, 2014)

Akasha ji thanks for your thread and good posts even though yours and others are challenging at times in this thread.





Akasha said:


> .. To me, it's amazing we don't fall right through a chair when we sit down since we are nearly all empty space - and so is the chair!..


I think I know the answer to your chair dilemma. The parts of the chair that don't let you fall through are packed differently in space versus your body. It is only when your space can move or reshape another space that you can move or fall through. Like falling in a parachute drop in the air, etc. It is not possible to do so with the chair but with water and air we can.

On more topic of the thread, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the title of your query! How would you broadly classify Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a piece of writing? Spiritual or fiction or prose or science. I believe it is spiritual and to treat a work spiritual in ways others does not appear logical to me.

I marvel at your levels of learning Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as your efforts in posting here. Never be dis-heartened with other lions and lionesses being in the den 

Just some thoughts I will try to interact more later.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Admin (Jul 27, 2014)

Quote:
                             <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""><tbody><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              As I said earlier, let's do the  Anand's interpretation here from  our own Gurmat thought process as a comparative endeavour. 

For this great project, I would like Sahni Sahib to take the helm and we will all be the rowers of this Sikhi Ship.

So Sahni Sahib, I urge you to give this project a jump start by sharing   your understanding about the first Pauri of Anand and then we will all   pitch in and refine it collectively.                      </td></tr></tbody></table> 
*** Edited and made some additions**
*
Gurfateh ji

*This is a great initiative! 
*
Since inception, it has been SPN's endeavor to create a definitive  reference resource on Gurbani interpretations. We already have a section  which is dedicated to Gurbani interpretations by members in the  following forum:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-darpan/

and there in we have the following section:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/anand-sahib/

So, what we can do is create a special thread in Anand Sahib forum,  which will always remain at the top of the section and which can be  edited and re-edited based on a consensus, as the members would  deliberate in the same thread. OR eventually we can merge all other  threads under an individual pauri, so that there are only that much  threads, as are the Pauris in the interpreted Bani...

Thanks again for taking another initiative. Once we migrate to a newer   platform, hopefuly we will have special section made for these  interpretations... _Right now i am keeping it simple so as not to duplicate our efforts, once we migrate._

Please let me know if i am following the discussion...

Looking forward to hear from you all!

Gurfateh!


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## chazSingh (Jul 28, 2014)

Ambarsaria said:


> Akasha ji thanks for your thread and good posts even though yours and others are challenging at times in this thread.I think I know the answer to your chair dilemma. The parts of the chair that don't let you fall through are packed differently in space versus your body. It is only when your space can move or reshape another space that you can move or fall through. Like falling in a parachute drop in the air, etc. It is not possible to do so with the chair but with water and air we can.
> 
> On more topic of the thread, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the title of your query! How would you broadly classify Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a piece of writing? Spiritual or fiction or prose or science. I believe it is spiritual and to treat a work spiritual in ways others does not appear logical to me.
> 
> ...



i also believe it is spiritual  when one realizes they are more than the physical body, the domain of the spirit opens up...Waheguru


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 28, 2014)

Ambarsaria said:


> On more topic of the thread, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the title of your query! How would you broadly classify Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a piece of writing? Spiritual or fiction or prose or science. I believe it is spiritual and to treat a work spiritual in ways others does not appear logical to me.


 
Thanks Ji!  

And I totally agree... in fact, it is not the physical pages that we marvel at, nor the binding, or even the writing itself.  What makes SGGS special is the message it contains.  So when people mention cases where a Gurdwara was vandalized or even if people have Gurbani tattooed or put on a kara etc.  I don't see how anything can 'tarnish' it because its not the physical letters or the writing etc.  Gurbani surpasses what is physical... it's the message that is contained within it and that can not ever be tarnished.  And that message to me is spiritual.  

There are many people however who only extract meaning from it that pertains to the physical world, and interpret merging with the creator to mean more as merging with creation... or just simply living in harmony with nature and all the rest of humankind etc. And interpret 'joons' etc as different aspects of human psyche, and reincarnation as just reliving bad experiences in this one phsyical life etc.  

I am not saying that their interpretation is wrong... just that I think it contains multiple levels of meaning that pertain to BOTH this physical life AND that also pertain to the spiritual. Hence, it contains aspects of both miri and piri.  Itself is the embodiment of both nirgun and sargun... having physical form and containing a message (nonphysical) The message itself also echoes of both - a meaning that can be applied to the (physical) life to live in harmony with nature etc. and also a spiritual message in the same words, describing how to overcome the cycle of (physical) births and merge back with the creator (nonphysical). 

I know there are some here who only see one or the other though... and that's what this thread was about...  and I am not solely on either side of the coin as you can see... I'm actually on both.


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## chazSingh (Jul 28, 2014)

Akasha said:


> Thanks Ji!
> 
> And I totally agree... in fact, it is not the physical pages that we marvel at, nor the binding, or even the writing itself.  What makes Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji special is the message it contains.  So when people mention cases where a Gurdwara was vandalized or even if people have Gurbani tattooed or put on a kara etc.  I don't see how anything can 'tarnish' it because its not the physical letters or the writing etc.  Gurbani surpasses what is physical... it's the message that is contained within it and that can not ever be tarnished.  And that message to me is spiritual.
> 
> ...



exactly...

there are so many verses that guided me when my focus was primarily on creation, or on the physical...

as my attention grew towards the spiritual, and looking within oneself...those same verses also gave me insight into this 'layer'

that's why i always re-read over and over because the jewels keep manifesting...


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 28, 2014)

Guru Fateh to All.

I have responded to Ek Ong Kaar Khalsa on Sikhnet. It turned out to be a much longer,3 part response than I had initially thought.

Those interested, please check it out on Sikhnet and do not be afraid to pitch in here about it:

http://www.sikhnet.com/news/anand-sahib-spiritual-maturity-first-pauree

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 28, 2014)

Guru Fateh to all.

I was checking the old posts in this thread and found my own which was not meant to be written like that. 



> I have no idea why do we feel the need to label someone about their path as a Sikh, a seeker?



It should have said,"I have no idea why do we feel the need to label someone about their path  because all Sikhs are seekers in their own ways"?

My apologies.

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 29, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Guru Fateh to All.
> 
> I have responded to Ek Ong Kaar Khalsa on Sikhnet. It turned out to be a much longer,3 part response than I had initially thought.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Jee 

I have gone through interpretation of S. Amar Pal Singh and Ek Ong Kaar Khalsa on first pauree of Anand Sahib and your subsequent response to Ek Ong Kaar Khalsa. I am a little fish in between the great scholars but was not happy on understanding meaning of 'meri maey' as my mother and 'pariah' as 'heavenly entities' though gurbani clearly points out 'mata matt' , thus 'meri maey' means mine intellect and not guru's intellect and 'raag rattan pariah parvaar' on page 351 further elobarates 'parivar pariah' carries the divine message from nijhghar  'parivar' body organs through 'pariah' to breed goodness i.e. through almost invisible tiny veins, cavalries in their whims. You will notice gurbani has even given us meaning of 'parivar' through this pankti, 'ja tis bhana ta jamia parivar bhala paeya  when one accepts the divine intellect then he gives birth to a body of manh, which becomes his family. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 921.3, otherwise we know birth of Sri Chand in guru's house.

I am further not able to pick up, 'By meditating on this first Pauree of the Anand Sahib, the imprint can come. By reciting it a minimum of 11 times a day, it has the capacity to rewrite your relationship with your first teacher, your mother, and realign the foundation of your life.' Are we reducing the gurbani to mantra.


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## Luckysingh (Jul 29, 2014)

ਰਾਗ ਰਤਨ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਪਰੀਆ ਸਬਦ ਗਾਵਣ ਆਈਆ ॥
Rāg raṯan parvār parī▫ā sabaḏ gāvaṇ ā▫ī▫ā

paria= beautiful lady singers singing in praise (Non-spiritual)
paria= heavenly angels from the divine singing the praises (Spiritual)

some of us may have heard the songs from both realms !!eacesign:


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2014)

> And I totally agree... in fact, it is not the physical pages that we marvel at, nor the binding, or even the writing itself. What makes Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji special is the message it contains. So when people mention cases where a Gurdwara was vandalized or even if people have Gurbani tattooed or put on a kara etc. I don't see how anything can 'tarnish' it because its not the physical letters or the writing etc. Gurbani surpasses what is physical... it's the message that is contained within it and that can not ever be tarnished. And that message to me is spiritual.





> There are many people however who only extract meaning from it that pertains to the physical world, and interpret merging with the creator to mean more as merging with creation... or just simply living in harmony with nature and all the rest of humankind etc. And interpret 'joons' etc as different aspects of human psyche, and reincarnation as just reliving bad experiences in this one phsyical life etc.




I do believe in everything you have written above, I also think we are getting bogged down in words, clearly I have an aversion to the word spiritual. 

To me spiritual conjures up images of folks with their eyes closed, a blissful look on face, lost in some deep world, maybe lost in some deep connection. Now for anyone that struggles with this type of connection, (like me), that connection can only come from interaction with Creation, at no point have I lauded this as the only and correct way to connect, far from it, in every aspect of my life, from attitude, dress, social interaction, I seem to shy away from the herd, to want to do it in my own way, a heretic, an oddball, however it does bring to light the very (in my opinion) nucleus of Sikhism, truthful living. For me this manifests itself by way of giving, my time, my money, my energy, and at times, possibly my very life, although I am still here!

We are all products of our environment, of our past, of our living, I have spent too many periods of my life doped out, existing in a haze of maya, that for me, interaction with Creation, full on, with no thought of the self, the consequences, is the only way, I would actually concede that my complete lack of spirituality, is also on a complete par with my attitude to life in general, I give the same attention that I give to the health of my mind (spirituality), to my appearance, my physical health, my death, I exist only to serve Creator and Creation, thats it, end. It is quite a lop sided existence, but suitable for a madman. SPNadmin once wrote to me and warmly said that if I wished to live my life with one arm tied to one leg, that was my choice, but one day, I would see the sense in untying myself. I suppose what I am attempting to put across is that the way I live is for me only, I would never ever advocate it for another. 



> just that I think it contains multiple levels of meaning that pertain to BOTH this physical life AND that also pertain to the spiritual.



I absolutely agree



> I am not saying that their interpretation is wrong.



well if your talking about me, I would not say my interpretation is absolute or spot on, it works for me, given where I am at present, but I am denying myself huge tracts of spirituality possibly due to aversion. 



> just that I think it contains multiple levels of meaning that pertain to BOTH this physical life AND that also pertain to the spiritual



I think on reflection your probably correct



> Hence, it contains aspects of both miri and piri. Itself is the embodiment of both nirgun and sargun... having physical form and containing a message (nonphysical) The message itself also echoes of both - a meaning that can be applied to the (physical) life to live in harmony with nature etc. and also a spiritual message in the same words, describing how to overcome the cycle of (physical) births and merge back with the creator (nonphysical).



Now this just bores me, but that is my issue and my fault, while I was reading it, some chap walked in and has lost his facebook log in, I find myself reluctantly helping, I don't want to help, I have got a million things to do today, but it gets booked in, for a nominal charge, he leaves happy and relieved, I just look at the mountain of laptops that have all come in for favours, the people that wander in and want to chat, have a cup of tea, talk about problems, it is in fact, for me anyway, payback time, I spent years raping Creation, taking everything from it, abusing it, and now its time to set the balance straight, I have many many years left of restoring that balance, of putting enough back in that I can move on again, you guys, you are the free, all options are open to you, I on the other hand am in self imposed slavery to Creator and Creation, its possibly the only thing that keeps me sane. I am simply not ready for self improvement or enlightenment, for the moment anyway. 



> I know there are some here who only see one or the other though... and that's what this thread was about... and I am not solely on either side of the coin as you can see... I'm actually on both.



I wished to make my position clear, I think spirituality is a huge part of Sikhism, it is a workout for the brain, but it ( i feel) should be carried out very carefully, and with the warnings of our Gurus ringing in our ears, and in a manner that is in line with Sikh thinking and philosophy. Or you could be just like me and not bother at all!

What I do believe in is Gurparsad, when the time is right for me to shake of these shackles, then yes, by the grace of Creator, I will be able to embrace your thoughts and line of thinking, till then, I am going to munch on another doughnut, down a large energy drink, and try and give back today a small part of what I have had from Creation over the years. It really is the only thing that keeps me sane, giving, being truthful, attempting to keep my mind clean, trying to do the right thing, trying not to ignore when Creation asks for you to stand up and help, its a beautiful day here, the sugar is kicking in, the thieves are silent, after being so many things, a drunk, druggie, womaniser, etc etc, its nice to be a Sikh in the only way that I can., to make a difference, and to hope that one day, I get the connection from both angles, miri and piri. 

I hope that explains my stand


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 29, 2014)

Sat sri akaal to All 0 ,

i was travelling  ,so unable to post  my reply .


Tejwant ji 
"_Soul is also Biblical Pollen that in my opinion we should get rid of. Many people define Soul/Spirit in Gurmukhi as "AATMA"/ਆਤਮਾ and the interesting part is that it is only used 12 times in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that too twice in two Shabads, which means it is used only in 10 Shabads in the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji of 1429 pages_"


First of all "Soul"  predates Bible and one can find its mentioned in Pre Historic eastern  Scripture .

and Tejwant ji  why are so obsessed  with ginti-minti  ? even if its mentioned once in one shabad  that  does n't makes it less important . in your initial post you denied its nowhere mentioned in Gurbani . 


and i really liked the response of Ek ong Kaar Kaur  Khalsa ji to you ! i wanna share that  
_*This is a journey that I take every day - learning and growing. I respect that people see Gurbani in very different lights, and I would never say one way is right and one way is wrong. I truly believe that everyone finds what they need in the Guru Granth Sahib. That is part of what makes the Guru Granth Sahib a True Guru. Not a book, or a scripture, but a Living Teacher. Everyone finds there what they need.

For whatever reason, this is what I have found
*_


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## chazSingh (Jul 29, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Sat sri akaal to All 0 ,
> 
> i was travelling  ,so unable to post  my reply .
> 
> ...




I agree whole-heartedly,

when we start to reduce the significance of certain words just because they haven't been used that often in Gurbani, then we have started to pick and chose what we like\agree with within Gurbani..

either we accept it as the complete truth or we don't..if i find reference to something only once in Gurbani, then Guru Ji found it to be significant...therefore i must also...


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2014)

I do however sincerely believe that continued intrusion from other religions that encourage practices our Gurus frowned on, is possibly the worst insult  to them and to Sikhism. 

To that end I have little time for the writings of anyone who feels that it is acceptable to dress Sikhism up as a cure for all, depending on the time you get up or the mantra that you chant.

More power to Tejwantji for having the time and energy to debate with such people...


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 29, 2014)

Contrary to the belief of almost all religions that once baby is conceived, within four or six weeks, God injects the atma and upon death the atma leaves the body, gurbani is only concerned about spiritual death and birth. It does not talk what is un-important for us to live truthful life. On the contrary it tells us, 'ਮਤੁ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵਦਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮੁਇਆਸੁ ॥  don't think by taking biological birth we have taken birth and are alive, we are dead, we are still animal wrapped in human skin, 'ਪਸੂ ਮਾਣਸ ਚੰਮਿ ਪਲੇਟੇ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਕਾਲਿਆ ॥. Our real birth is, ' ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਜਨਮੇ ਗਵਨੁ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ॥ when we accept and wear robe of divine wisdom and as such stop negative and evil deeds.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 29, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Contrary to the belief of almost all religions that once baby is conceived, within four or six weeks, God injects the atma and upon death the atma leaves the body, gurbani is only concerned about spiritual death and birth. It does not talk what is un-important for us to live truthful life. On the contrary it tells us, 'ਮਤੁ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵਦਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮੁਇਆਸੁ ॥ don't think by taking biological birth we have taken birth and are alive, we are dead, we are still animal wrapped in human skin, 'ਪਸੂ ਮਾਣਸ ਚੰਮਿ ਪਲੇਟੇ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਕਾਲਿਆ ॥. Our real birth is, ' ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਜਨਮੇ ਗਵਨੁ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ॥ when we accept and wear robe of divine wisdom and as such stop negative and evil deeds.


 

I totally agree with you here... just look what we as humans have been doing to each other, to the planet, to animals... we are actually WORSE than animals, who at least act purely on instinct.  We do these things by will... 

And I am not perfect... I have hurt others in my life... I was not always vegetarian etc.  I now try my best to help others, I do not condone any harsh treatment to animals, I do not eat meat because it is not necessary (but if it were to survive, then as long as the animal was not needlessly made to suffer), I volunteer as a medical responder at local events helping people at their worst sometimes (usually that means drunk at concerts etc, but a person who is inbjured or ill is the same - regardless of their poor choice to beocme inebriated)  As a result I have been bleed on, puked on, swung at by drunks, yelled at, and I still volunteer to do this because a few times it actually mattered (a heart attack one time and a diabetic with dangerously low BG level and close to coma). My heart actually hurts when I see animals mistreated, and I have cried at seeing images from war torn conflict areas.  

Yes I believe in the spiritual aspect of Gurbani, but I never disregard the physical aspect of it either.  I try to balance them.  I do meditate - naam simran... because it helps me deal with all the above.  

And even though I see all the ugliness that we have caused in the world through our separation from the creator and duality, when I see images of absolute pristine beauty in a snow capped mountain with a blue green lake below and rainbows, and lush green forests... places largely untouched by humans, I can see the embodiment of the divine light.  

I can also see it in the lady who volunteers at the hospital to rock premature babies, or knit them bonnets, or in the guy who collects used coats and hats / mittens and hands them out to the homeless in colder weather.  I can see it in the soldier who risks his own life to pull an injured person off the field and out of danger.  I can see it in the random acts of kindness that people do every day without even realizing... paying for a coffee for the person behind them, offering to help an elder across the street, bringing water to a city worker who is workign through near 40C heat, helping a child find their parents in a crowded amusement park when they got lost etc. 

The divine light is shining everywhere if we just stop and look.  And it is said that one small candle is all it takes to destroy darkness... we are all potential candles...


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 29, 2014)

Akasha ji thanks for a great post above. I realize you are scientifically inclined and so am I.

Let us hypothesize what Atma-Parmatma; Jyot-the Super Jyot; etc., can be considered as in practical terms.

1. Universe, the all encompassing of all with life, non-life and transformations from and to life..


Remembering Earth cannot survive without the Universe which includes stars like our sun.
2. How it happened or happens to be, I will call it the eternal truth, the creator.
3. Coming down to Earth what we observe is Creation.
4. If we were to assign atma to the living then given our limited knowledge we can call it the gene pool. 

I will go even as far as to say it is "Parmatma" but it is not limited to the earth but is rather part of the Universe as one truth "Parmatma".
5. How we get our atma becomes obvious.


It is the gene pool truths and spark that let us come to be.
6. Our atma grows, moves sideways, up and down in interactions with all other atmas and creation. We become part of a functioning parmatma constellation.
7. In living we impinge upon other atmas as well as the parmatma plus all the transformational between life to non-life and vice versa.
8. Even we are all from one large pool or sarovar we are all small droplets with our own defining moments or characteristics. 
9. Atmas continue, change, improve, degrade and everything else.
10. Even changed atmas may one day create the same spark or create similar seed atma (the spark) that perhaps existed many generations or centuries ago.
11. This is not re-incarnation in terms of identical but a seed that may be quite similar between two bodies.
12. New forms of life will continuously create as parmatma is a work in progress and will always be as long as there is life in the universe.
13. As you have mentioned in your post and I have also stated same in many posts and so have others that as soon as you start seeing the you in others (3HO slogan), or you part of all that is around you whether life or non-life, you have realized parmatma.
14. In terms of the creator, since we know so little and are capable of only knowing so little, less we say the better.
15. We can definitely observe, as our Guru ji have stated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, some from what we know in human terms. Say the "mool mantar" is a classic and stark illustration of that.
16. We also need to recognize the wisdom of  our Guru ji  in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, where they continuously warn us against endeavoring to know all as it just is not possible being humans of limitations.

Any comments or corrections I always welcome.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS: *Close your eyes and listen, open your eyes and see the following is not Gurbani but just another recording of atama and parmatma in action 

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kYFjg-canyM?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 29, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Tejwant Jee
> 
> I have gone through interpretation of S. Amar Pal Singh and Ek Ong Kaar Khalsa on first pauree of Anand Sahib and your subsequent response to Ek Ong Kaar Khalsa. I am a little fish in between the great scholars but was not happy on understanding meaning of 'meri maey' as my mother and 'pariah' as 'heavenly entities' though gurbani clearly points out 'mata matt' , thus 'meri maey' means mine intellect and not guru's intellect and 'raag rattan pariah parvaar' on page 351 further elobarates 'parivar pariah' carries the divine message from nijhghar  'parivar' body organs through 'pariah' to breed goodness i.e. through almost invisible tiny veins, cavalries in their whims. You will notice gurbani has even given us meaning of 'parivar' through this pankti, 'ja tis bhana ta jamia parivar bhala paeya  when one accepts the divine intellect then he gives birth to a body of manh, which becomes his family. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 921.3, otherwise we know birth of Sri Chand in guru's house.
> 
> I am further not able to pick up, 'By meditating on this first Pauree of the Anand Sahib, the imprint can come. By reciting it a minimum of 11 times a day, it has the capacity to rewrite your relationship with your first teacher, your mother, and realign the foundation of your life.' Are we reducing the gurbani to mantra.




Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

If you had read her response, you would have noticed that between her and our only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, she has a demigod called Yogi Bhajan whose shenanigans I am quite familiar with but this is not the place nor the the time about them. I have no inclination to respond to her because it is not worth it.

My whole idea of interacting with her was not to challenge her interpretation but about her mindset and she fell right into it, while talking about her "Broker" to Ik Ong Kaar, Yogi Bhajan. 

Once I asked Yogi about the mistranslation of Soch-Su_ch in the the second Pauri of Jap  that he claimed as "Thinking" rather than as "Purity" as in the Hindu mindset by taking dips- Teeraths which in the 6th Pauri Guru Nanak also rejected. He told me that I was right but as he had been saying "Thinking" to these goreis and gorieans for so many years, it is impossible for him to say anything else but "thinking". So, this is the way Yogi approached the business model of 3HO which btw is a very successful entity. Its security branch called Akal Security has gotten billions of dollars in US government contracts. The people who were responsible for his very successful cereal business based in Oregon became monas immediately after his death and took over the company which went to the court and eventually got sold to another company. 

Bibi ji, Yogi's wife was trying to get trademark for "Yogi Tea", the spring board of all his businesses for herself because Yogi had left everything to the trust. She was successful in it and has lent the name to a multinational.

For me, 3HO is a business model where they use Sikhi Baana as a bait to attract people in their pyramid scheme of  self employed start ups like Herballife and others but they have one leg up on others. They sell all those Haldi-Turmeric-capsules and other things after they have trained people to parrot in order to set up shops for "Kundalini Yoga & Meditation" as the integral parts of Sikhi and with their Baana. This is the saddest part of all this is that it is all done as part of Sikhi which is not only false but also very misleading. But, they are making use of Sikhi and raking millions as many derababas in India and in other countries.

3HO is like the Mormon church. Both are business models and both have demigods that people worship and both of these demigods were famous for their lecherous habits.

Neither of them have anything to do with breeding goodness within.

Thanks for taking the time to read on Sikhnet.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 29, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Sahni ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Tejwant ji 


Your idea of  starting  Anand sahib interpretation was more  constructive than above rant .


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 29, 2014)

Ambarsaria Ji,

I don't think atma is simply our genes... unless our genes are the 'I AM' that exists within us.  

Within every human being (and likely all the animals and even plants to a much lesser degree... animals are certainly aware but do not think in the way we do about where we came from, which is why SGGS says this is our chance to meet the creator...only in human form do we possess high enough consciousness to do so) Anyway within us there is an experiencer... the nonphysical bit of us that is the one who is actually experiencing, thinking, reflecting, contemplating and posing the question "who am I and why am I here?".  It's not the genes as genes can be replicated in a pitre dish and I highly doubt they are aware.  Similarly, it's not the brain either, as neuroscientists have searched for the seat of consciousness since the inception of neuroscience, and have yet to find it. Sure the brain assists with calculation, perception, association etc. but there still needs to 'someone' who initiates those processes. Strange is the fact that every 7 years or so, you have an entirely new brain due to cell death and regeneration.  Yet, you continue to be the same 'I AM'.  That part of us exists somewhere outside of the phsyical... 

I think of genes as blueprints, the body as the building (temple) and the soul is the one dwelling within the temple and who is aware. 

atma (being) can reflect on both the spiritual level as that part of you which is you... the soul or the essence... the 'I AM' for lack of a better word... and also in the physical. 

Similarly, paramatma is both... since God is both Creator AND Creation, formless and with thousands of forms, separate and yet pervading everything.... then paramatma would be the formless all encompasing Unity of the Creator, and also the total sum of everything in form as well in both the spiritual 'soul or nonphysical' sense AND the physical (as in prior to the Big Bang when everything was condensed into ONE). 

But the physical level is not all there is... true, we can never know or understand the wonders of the Creator, but we can experience on a small level the spirituality... we can glimpse into that state.  Just because we don't understand something does not mean we should ignore it.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 29, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> 
> Your idea of  starting  Anand sahib interpretation was more  constructive than above rant .



Harmanpreet,

I am not at all appalled at your rudeness but my question is why are you so rude? Where does this rudeness in you sprout from?

We always have disagreements here but there are ways to express them in a constructive manner.

Please give it a go the next time.

Regarding Anand's interpretation, I am a bit busy this week so I would request you to start the first Pauri and we will all pitch in with your help.

Your contribution would be highly appreciated. Will be eagerly waiting for it because it is a collective endeavour from all of us here at SPN.

What do you think?

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Sherdil (Jul 29, 2014)

Ambarsaria said:
			
		

> 4. If we were to assign atma to the living then given our limited knowledge we can call it the gene pool.
> 
> I  will go even as far as to say it is "Parmatma" but it is not limited to  the earth but is rather part of the Universe as one truth "Parmatma".
> 5. How we get our atma becomes obvious.
> ...


Genes determine the phenotype (the physical you), which is merely the kapra. This kapra is made out of the same fabric that makes up the earth and stars (carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.).  


 Who you are goes beyond your genes. If we were to clone someone, chances are that the clone would not have the same personality, likes or dislikes as the original person.  


 Therefore, the aatma goes beyond our genes.  It is that thing which is thinking. It is aware of itself and the world around it. It has a sense of haumai (I am).  


 The French Philosopher, Rene Descartes summed it up in “I think, therefore I am”.


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 29, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harmanpreet,
> 
> I am not at all appalled at your rudeness but my question is why are you so rude? Where does this rudeness in you sprout from?
> 
> ...



I m sorry ,i had no such  intentions  , but  Tejwant ji that lady Ek Onkaar  Kaur answered your questions with such politeness ,even accepted that she may be wrong but thats her View , and you are  saying that she has a " Broker " and blah blah ... even when she said her only Guru is Guru Granth Sahib ji 

_"This is a journey that I take every day - learning and growing. I respect that people see Gurbani in very different lights, and I would never say one way is right and one way is wrong. I truly believe that everyone finds what they need in the Guru Granth Sahib. That is part of what makes the Guru Granth Sahib a True Guru. Not a book, or a scripture, but a Living Teacher. Everyone finds there what they need.

For whatever reason, this is what I have found"_


let us all get back to topic


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## chazSingh (Jul 29, 2014)

Akasha said:


> atma (being) can reflect on both the spiritual level as that part of you which is you... the soul or the essence... the 'I AM' for lack of a better word... and also in the physical.



you've got me thinking quite a bit...
i see the Atma as a molicule of the whole...an illusory molicule of the whole that seems to be there due to the Ego...
in reality, beyond the Ego that gives us the sense of 'I' 'Me' 'You' only the paramatma exists...



> Similarly, paramatma is both... since God is both Creator AND Creation, formless and with thousands of forms, separate and yet pervading everything.... then paramatma would be the formless all encompasing Unity of the Creator, and also the total sum of everything in form as well in both the spiritual 'soul or nonphysical' sense AND the physical (as in prior to the Big Bang when everything was condensed into ONE).



i like your description...all is paramatma... 



> But the physical level is not all there is... true, we can never know or understand the wonders of the Creator, but we can experience on a small level the spirituality... we can glimpse into that state.  Just because we don't understand something does not mean we should ignore it



We can definately glimpse into that state  all within our very being...it's pretty mind blowing, one is sat on the sofa doing Simran and all of a sudden the impossible manifests...
i sense from your writings you experience this also


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 29, 2014)

I think we are starting to diverge into two topics here.... can we start a new thread for the anand sahib translation and keep this one on discussion of physical vs nonphysical?? Other than that I am loving the conversations we are having!  And we have managed to keep it (mostly) tame.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 29, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> you've got me thinking quite a bit...
> i see the Atma as a molicule of the whole...an illusory molicule of the whole that seems to be there due to the Ego...
> in reality, beyond the Ego that gives us the sense of 'I' 'Me' 'You' only the paramatma exists...


 
When I say the 'I AM' I am not talking about Akaska or Chazsingh... as that is EGO.  These parts we play are only characters in the play and these physical bodies are just costumes.  The 'I AM' I am referring to is THE 'I AM'  the actor who is playing the characters.   And who is the actor?  Pg 736 SGGS tells us that the one who stages the play is also ALL of the characters.  

There is a reson I keep using the quote about when one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his 'OWN SELF' and that 'HE IS ME' what more is there to do or to know?  (That was paraphrased obviously).  :kaurkhalsaflagblue:


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## chazSingh (Jul 29, 2014)

Akasha said:


> When I say the 'I AM' I am not talking about Akaska or Chazsingh... as that is EGO.  These parts we play are only characters in the play and these physical bodies are just costumes.  The 'I AM' I am referring to is THE 'I AM'  the actor who is playing the characters.   And who is the actor?  Pg 736 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us that the one who stages the play is also ALL of the characters.
> 
> There is a reson I keep using the quote about when one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his 'OWN SELF' and that 'HE IS ME' what more is there to do or to know?  (That was paraphrased obviously).  :kaurkhalsaflagblue:



i see what you mean...if all is god then the 'I AM' is the paramatma...the only 'I AM' that there is, and the only 'I AM there will ever be...

All other 'I AM's are the illusory dualistic nature created by the Ego, that makes us think we are a unique entity Seperate to God...

As described so beautifully in the shabad below, taken from the shabad that was listed in earlier posts...
the one who seeks, realises he was seeking himself 

hope the above makes sense...my descriptive vocabulary suffers from time to time 

Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai. 
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥ 
Anṯar kī ḏubiḏẖā anṯar marai. ||1||
 The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 29, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> i see what you mean...if all is god then the 'I AM' is the paramatma...the only 'I AM' that there is, and the only 'I AM there will ever be...
> 
> All other 'I AM's are the illusory dualistic nature created by the Ego, that makes us think we are a unique entity Seperate to God...
> 
> ...


 

yup!  At least in my thoughts! 

And usually when people contemplate the death of the EGO they think that means all goes black and we cease to exist.  However, if you were an actor in a play, when the play is over and you remove the costume, was all memory of the time you were the character erased?  Did it just go black and you cease to exist? Nope... so the death of the EGO is not the loss of yourself... but more waking up from amnesia and realizing and remembering ALL selves! Hence... death is an illusion.  

In order to reach the true home of your soul when you die, you must conquer death while still alive... how better than to realize that it is an illusion?!


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## kggr001 (Jul 29, 2014)

Akasha said:


> yup!  At least in my thoughts!
> 
> And usually when people contemplate the death of the EGO they think that means all goes black and we cease to exist.  However, if you were an actor in a play, when the play is over and you remove the costume, was all memory of the time you were the character erased?  Did it just go black and you cease to exist? Nope... so the death of the EGO is not the loss of yourself... but more waking up from amnesia and realizing and remembering ALL selves! Hence... death is an illusion.
> 
> In order to reach the true home of your soul when you die, you must conquer death while still alive... how better than to realize that it is an illusion?!



Your post reminded me of a shabad I read few month's ago on Sikhwiki, while I was reading about Bhagat Sheikh Farid ji's life.



> SGGS Page 1377
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 29, 2014)

Akasha ji it is perhaps time to count the piles of beans on spiritual vs. non-spiritiual aspects of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

*A. In observational or non-spiritual as to be classified as wisdom/observational science:*


100,000s of skies and much discovered in the latest but no end ("Lakh agasa agass ..)
All is one element ("Ek noor teh sub jug upjia...)
The more one discovers the more to be found (examples of vedas, koran, etc.)
All is transformational all the time
*Spiritual: *Spirirual teacher through metaphors for the different levels of experiences, folklore and beliefs of the days as held by religious slaves or religious doctrines


End objective an unshackled spiritual Sikh without blind faiths, illogicals
Of course I stand corrected but that is what I have seen so far in translating Sidh Gosht, Sukhmani Sahib, Salok Sheikh Farid ji, parts of Assa di Vaar, draft Japji Sahib, Kirtan Sohila, and some other shabads and parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. All this more for my lay understanding and not pretending to be a scholar or the authority.


Sat Sri Akal.eacesign:


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## Ishna (Jul 29, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> i see what you mean...if all is god then the 'I AM' is the paramatma...the only 'I AM' that there is, and the only 'I AM there will ever be...
> 
> All other 'I AM's are the illusory dualistic nature created by the Ego, that makes us think we are a unique entity Seperate to God...
> 
> ...



Chazji, can you please reference?

Many thanks.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 29, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Page 1377
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> ...


Surface meaning of above sabd reveals bhagat farid is narrating pessimistic state of mind but little efforts in understanding will show it is in fact of chardhi kala and of celebration and not death


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 30, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Sahni ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Jee

Yes. Though she claims her Guru is Guru Granth Sahib but follows Yogi Bhajan's advice on simran, meditation, kundalini and even understanding of gurbani. I had noticed Yogi Bhajan really had a God gift chrisma to mobilize and convert thousands but instead of connecting people with sabd guru, he could have done wonders but become victim of his own mahima and result is in front of us. Guru truely advise us, ' ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥ with God gift chrisma, resources, without divine wisdom, there remains pitch of darkness.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 30, 2014)

> Surface meaning of above sabd reveals bhagat farid is narrating pessimistic state of mind but little efforts in understanding will show it is in fact of chardhi kala and of celebration and not death


 
How did you get that out that!??

To me it is saying that since we can never know the day we will leave this physical life, we should not squander this chance we have. It's saying that death can not be avoided... as in we all eventually die (physically) and that if we do not use this chance the 'soul' will experience regret, so it's telling him to be careful not to be robbed of the time that he has been given by engaging in useless pursuits. This human form is special and rare, and we have been given this chance to meet the creator, so we shouldn't waste it.

To me it's just a reminder... not a celebration


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 30, 2014)

Akasha said:


> How did you get that out that!??
> 
> To me it is saying that since we can never know the day we will leave this physical life, we should not squander this chance we have. It's saying that death can not be avoided... as in we all eventually die (physically) and that if we do not use this chance the 'soul' will experience regret, so it's telling him to be careful not to be robbed of the time that he has been given by engaging in useless pursuits. This human form is special and rare, and we have been given this chance to meet the creator, so we shouldn't waste it.
> 
> To me it's just a reminder... not a celebration


Akasha ji I agree with you on this. japjisahib04 ji has different take on it. The message if listened to can be positive for going forward or negative if one tries to use it as a test of how bad we have been. If one lives into the future then it is positive and if one keeps looking into the past it is negative.

For me strict message is one of reflection as you stated. If the reflection leads you to believe that you already pass the litmus test of the reflection then it is that you are already in a good state, "Chardi Kala" but otherwise you need to pay heed to be in "Chardi Kala".

A wonderful rendition of this shabad is in my understanding posts in the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bani-sheikh-farid/38330-salok-sheikh-farid-ji-1-12-a.html

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 30, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Tejwant Jee
> 
> Yes. Though she claims her Guru is Guru Granth Sahib but follows Yogi Bhajan's advice on simran, meditation, kundalini and even understanding of gurbani. I had noticed Yogi Bhajan really had a God gift chrisma to mobilize and convert thousands but instead of connecting people with sabd guru, he could have done wonders but become victim of his own mahima and result is in front of us. Guru truely advise us, ' ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥ with God gift chrisma, resources, without divine wisdom, there remains pitch of darkness.



Sahni Sahib,

Guru Fateh.

You hit the nail right on the head. Yogi Bhajan is their demigod. When he was weak and unwell after a kidney transplant in India where it was bought because he could not get it quick enough in the US, his chair was next to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where he sat. After people doing Matha tek to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they did the same to Yogi Bhajan. In their "Ardaas", his name has been added for a long time.

Yogi Bhajan was a very charismatic person. He also did a lot of good things when he arrived here in the late 60's. He took many people off the drugs during the Hippy era and brought them to his fold with yoga as his calling card. He admitted himself to my family that he had no idea about yoga because he was just a Government worker. So he made up a story of some Guru who had taught him Kundalini to put the icing on the business model of his.

There is no doubt, that he did a lot of good at that time unlike OSHO's Rajneesh where free open sex, abortions and drugs were common in Oregon. Rajneesh also translated Jap, I am sure you must be aware of. I know lots of people in Latin America and Europe who still flock towards OSHO and go to Pune to his Ashram without having an inkling that he and his chelas tried to poison the water of a city in Oregon to get some permits approved. They also do not know that Rajneesh was deported from here rather than facing jail, the deal that was struck but his chelas, among them his lady secretary faced jail time. The most interesting part of Rajneesh is that this was not even his real name. He was a Jaini, born as Chandra Mohan Jain and later on called himself  Bhagwan Rajneesh. And you know the Jaini theology quite well.

The same kind of route Yogi Bhajan took but in a much better way. Unlike Rajneesh who used his charisma and snake oil, Yogi Bhajan made those drug addicts self-sufficient by creating boiler rooms all over the west coast to sell Copy machines', Fax machines' and other kinds of toners 10 times the retail price. He created a sales pitch where his salespeople only talked to the secretaries and enticed them with gifts. His go to man was an American Sikh named HarJiwan Singh Khalsa who managed all these boiler rooms. They made millions but eventually, things got caught up and the whole operation was closed down after the raids by the government and HarJiwan ended up spendig some time behind bars. One of his other chelas was involved in smuggling Marijuana and spent some time in the prison too. And there are many worse things about Yogi's life that are not worth discussing.

The reason, I have mentioned the above is to agree with you that it is a business model where “fairy tale spirituality” is sold under the guise of Sikhi as the main intangible ingredient, with the tangible business plans which consist of “Mantras, Meditation and Kundalini Yoga stores” as the Boiler Room business was closed down forcefully and  one more important thing to mention  here is that 3HO works with the changing times. 3HO was the first one to establish Call Centres in India and then spread them to other countries.

Kudos to Ambarsaria ji in his post to Akasha ji to decipher "Spiritual and non- Spiritual" from the Sikhi viewpoint with the quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is what we all have to do because Sikhi is not just about "me feel good" thingie but "me do good in order to feel good" way of life.

Now, the most dangerous part is that they are translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, under the same mindset which has nothing to do with Gurbani as you must have noticed, but they have a captive audience among themselves around the world to generate funds and keep on doing the same.

This is the reason, the Sikh honchos like the SGPC and others who have given their stamp of approval to the English Translation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Sant Singh Khalsa who is a Gora Sikh (and his translation is the most misleading)  make things more dangerous. They should rather invest on Sikh Scholars like IJ Singh and others in the diaspora who are fluent in multiple languages to translate the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to stop this very dangerous and non Sikhi incursion into Sikhi. 

The case in point is my interaction with EK Ong Kaar Kaur. She posted a picture of a Chinese Sikh and a Hispanic Sikh who translated her Jap in English to those languages on her FB page. I offered her to do the same in Portuguese for which she was very happy about it and here is part of her message,*” Have you read the translation of Japji a Sahib that Yogiji guided me to do? If you do not have a copy, please send me your mailing address and I will be grateful to send it to you. You can read it for yourself and decide whether you think it is an appropriate translation. Then, if you do like it and you would like to use it as a base to do a translation in Portuguese, it would be an honor to have you do so”.* 

The reason I am posting this is to show you that all the so called Sikhi mindset has been constipatedly coming out of Yogi Bhajan’s mind. She is sending me the book.

Finally, you are absolutely  right. “ Guru truely advise us, ' ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥ with God gift charisma, resources, without divine wisdom, there remains pitch of darkness”.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 30, 2014)

Akasha Ji

It all depend upon state of mind, to either dig and search divine gems or look otherwise. Unlike the surface meanings, 'the day of birth, time and date of death is also written.  On that day, the Messenger of Death, of whom she had only heard, comes and shows its face.  It breaks the bones of the body and pulls the helpless soul out. That pre-ordained time of marriage cannot be avoided. Explain this to your soul.' How sad and pessimistic sabd looks like? Plus there is no truth in it as with advance medical technologies now life span has been increased. Otherwise what is spiritual or anything to learn for us, in this sabd?

Whereas bhagat farid is not trying to frighten us through this sabd but is telling us 'ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਹਾੜੈ ਧਨ' the day 'dhan' my intellect wears the robe of honor - the 'vari' the spiritual wisdom, that day is auspicious and he sure short attains oneness with God. This is called saha sanjog(auspicious marriage) marrying with God.

ਮਲਕੁ ਜਿ ਕੰਨੀ ਸੁਣੀਦਾ - now ਮਲਕੁ is not messenger of death but King. Fareed in a ramaz is telling that the most compassionate, graceful Satguru, I had heard   ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਖਾਲੇ ਆਇ ॥ the day of my acquintance is finally come. And ਜਿੰਦੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਕਢੀਐ after wearing robe of divine wisdom my egoistic ਜਿੰਦੁ is now turned ਨਿਮਾਣੀ humble.  And ਹਡਾ ਕੂ ਕੜਕਾਇ - the deep rooted mind set (within my bone) is now elevated.

You see yourselves it is not the physical death, but celebration of merger with God while living.


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## kggr001 (Jul 30, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Plus there is no truth in it as with advance medical technologies now life has span has been increased. Otherwise what is spiritual or anything to learn for us, in this sabd?



Everything happens according to lords will. If one gets medically saved then that is destined to happen. However everyone dies at some point and that for me is the pre-ordained time. 

I agree with you that Bhagat Farid ji is not trying to frighten us, I see this message more as a reminder. When I'm reading through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I find alot of similar messages, the Guru's and Bhagats do warn us about the same thing over and over. 

This all, beside the lord is nothing more then an illusion, realize the illusion and be Mukht.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 30, 2014)

Folks I am personally little saddened by the unnecessary talk about Yogi Bhajan in this thread. If people have beefs they should contact the sites that are part of his legacy and provide insights. Would what they want to say be published I have no idea. Here it almost reeks of unnecessary inert jealousy and from what I have known is demeaning to the spirit of SPN.

Jealousy, bad mouthing dead people no matter how bad. Here we don't do much justice. If needed, some more separate focused threads with objective discussions on merits and outcomes perhaps may be appropriate. Even then perhaps it will be energy wasted and not very Sikhi centric. I have fallen in this trap at times and regretted it later and tried to pull myself out of it. If people are so caring for Sikhi and want to address all bad done by all, they don't need to even leave Punjab as there is much fodder to keep us busy beyond disgust. Techniques of Sikhi "bana"/dress-persona hiding lot of bad actions is nothing peculiar and it continues on scales unheard of in Punjab today all the way from the leadership of Sikhs both religious and political. Let us focus on the root of Sikhi before we complain about grafts imperfect on the Sikhi tree.

Akasha ji has kept up with the very wise and the learned in this thread and let us give her credit and support her learning as we learn as well.

Sorry it is little off topic but I don't feel good about sentiments and approach and hijacking in some posts in this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 30, 2014)

kggr001 ji thanks for your post.





kggr001 said:


> Everything happens _*according to lords will*_. If one gets medically saved then that _*is destined to happen*_. However everyone dies at some point and that for me is the _*pre-ordained time*_.
> 
> ........
> 
> This all, beside the lord is nothing more then an illusion, realize the illusion and be Mukht.


_I want to suggest another dimension to your highlighted expressions._ _Even mool mantar guides us away from time by stating that the creator is time unaffected. Is it time that is pre-ordained based on our definitions as humans of days, nights, weeks, months and years or is it a system that has some interactions that may be time independent? If you take the dimension of time out you will see most is much better explained and so is life itself. The events like birth and death and their timing becomes irrelevant.

Creation is a system with parameters in play that control transformations slow or fast or very slow and very fast. We are part of an intertwined system with set of perhaps eternal rules that we hardly understand. Possibly the reason we spend all our life through surprises. Creator did not define lifespans but perhaps it is the interactions of life forms with all non life and life within and without that determines a lot.

So for me time is one of the blinders that we put upon us and it limits us and does not free us. A simple tree may live for hundreds of years while many life forms may be in an accelerated cycle of living, reproduction and dying as we may measure in time.

The I or me in us is so powerfully embedded with time that it overdrives much like,
_

_Let us quickly do this_
_Let us find a short cut for this or that_
_Let us merge with God/creator before we die_
_Whole bunch of other nonsense which perhaps in creation or the universe has little to no meaning_
_Could we really prepare for when the life ends on the earth like the dinosaurs as a wayward asteroid or a bigger body or wave pulse royally destroys life as we know it_
_"Akal moorat" and "ajuni" are lot more than timeless as measured in days or years or generations_
_That is what we are in the middle of as a collective_
 
_When one recognizes all rather than parts lot of things like life, death, vegetarian (killing plant life) or non-vegetarian (additionally killing animal life) become no different_
_As we eat we get eaten and that is part of the collective that we are integral to_
 
_Transformation is the only constant and time is superfluous
_
_Rate of transformation of different differently will always exist and to pinpoint all to 100% accuracy in human terms is simply futile_
 
Thus if we unshackle ourselves from the weeds we will start seeing the bigger picture where there is no others but we all but one. If one starts seeing this I believe the search for mukti or union with the ultimate becomes irrelevant. However some may want to classify such a state as mukti and I am cool with that :cheerleaders:.
What our Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji guides us with is to think big and we continue to refuse and get bogged down in triviality.

Think not the small, think only the big and make our Guru ji proud. Call it spiritual or non-spiritual and it will hardly matter other than to one self by self limiting in needless hair splitting. Holistic or spiritual understanding rarely, if ever, comes from splitting, it comes mostly from joining. Don't create boxes of understanding but be aware of one big box and try to see. The big box has lot of handles on it if you look and there is hardly a need to compartmentalize it or break it into pieces.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS: *What will be the future of space travel. Not a person but self sufficient eco-systems from the smallest family units to communities which may or may not come back in anyone's life time but may do so thousands and thousands years later only to find no one left on earth :yellingsardarni:. Where is everyone  Galaxy of Understandables :whistlingkudi::whislingmunda:

I just like this amateur video recording and composition of collages as it shows sounds coming from within regardless of the "bana"/dress or Sikh with hair or cut-hair on his head.
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/pPBnGpkR4Z0?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 31, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I agree with you that Bhagat Farid ji is not trying to frighten us, I see this message more as a reminder. When I'm reading through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I find alot of similar messages, the Guru's and Bhagats do warn us about the same thing over and over.
> 
> This all, beside the lord is nothing more then an illusion, realize the illusion and be Mukht.


Here I disagree with you. All the sabd in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are written in a state of chardhi kala but due to lack of understanding, we are translating them in negative sense and as such pessimistic state.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2014)

According to the litmus test, Sikhism is a way of life centred around optimism and potential rather than fear and regret..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 31, 2014)

Every sentence of 1429 SGGS is in Chardeekallah and High Spirits...its our mediocre thinking that we categorise certain shabads as Kushi de shabad..Gamee de shabad..dhendikala de shabad.dukh bhanjan shabad..sukh deaan valleh shabad..marg de shabad..viah de shabad..etc etc etc.....and from this attutude stems the compalints..OH HO..Marg da Bhog see..Granthi neh Lakh Khsuhian patshaiahn da shabad hukm lay liyah...  saddeh mundeh da jan din da smagam see..Bhai neh Allahnniah vichon Marg da shabd hukmnamah lay dittah...etc etc type of utterly stupid comments and way of thinking.

ALL these Dukh Banjab sukhbhanjan etc etc COLLECTIONS of shabds in GUTKAS are collections by INDIVIDUALS....this bad habit has been going on for a long time...Someone arbitrarily decided to ADD "SIRLEKHS" meaning TITLES to their own shabads and call them REHRASS...KIRTAN SOHILA...DUKHBHANJANNI shabad..NITNEM...AARTEE de Shabad...etc etc etc...all of which TITLES DONT EXIST in the SGGS...and one most LUDICROUS one is the one by Bahgat Namdev about AARTA....which means BEGGAR...and this shabad is added to the AARTEE shabad collection simply due tot he superficial word AARTA in it....when in fact AARTA is as far away from AARTEE as is the Sun from the Moon...!!!!!!  Bhagwaan TERA aarta is Namdev addressing The Creator..Here I am Bhagwaan Ji.....YOUR BIGGEST 
BEGGAR....!!!  This shabad has got nothing to do with the so called Aartee...

When  will we Sikhs open our eyes and see the REAL GURBANI for what it is...


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2014)

> Surface meaning of above sabd reveals bhagat farid is narrating pessimistic state of mind but little efforts in understanding will show it is in fact of chardhi kala and of celebration and not death






> How did you get that out that!??
> 
> To me it is saying that since we can never know the day we will leave this physical life, we should not squander this chance we have. It's saying that death can not be avoided... as in we all eventually die (physically) and that if we do not use this chance the 'soul' will experience regret, so it's telling him to be careful not to be robbed of the time that he has been given by engaging in useless pursuits. This human form is special and rare, and we have been given this chance to meet the creator, so we shouldn't waste it.
> 
> To me it's just a reminder... not a celebration



sorry, maybe I am just being stupid, but I cannot see much difference between the two


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## Sherdil (Jul 31, 2014)

Why does death have to be viewed with pessimism? Those who don't value  death, take this life for granted. We are so busy in worldly pursuits  that we often don't take a moment to smell the roses and appreciate the  miracle of being alive. 

Bhagat Farid ji is reminding us that this life won't last forever, therefore it is important to make the most of each moment. 

Here is the remainder of the Shabadh, which appears on page 1377 of GGS:



> ਫਰੀਦਾ  ਦਰ  ਦਰਵੇਸੀ  ਗਾਖੜੀ  ਚਲਾਂ  ਦੁਨੀਆਂ  ਭਤਿ  ॥
> फरीदा दर दरवेसी गाखड़ी चलां दुनीआं भति ॥
> Farīḏā ḏar ḏarvesī gākẖ▫ṛī cẖalāŉ ḏunī▫āŉ bẖaṯ.
> Fareed, it is so difficult to become a humble Saint at the Lord's Door.
> ...


Bhagat Farid ji is lamenting his time spent in this world  as a youth. He is saying he should have realized what is important in  life, and he should have fell in love with his Husband Lord sooner. He  only realizes his mistake in old age, when death is knocking at his door.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 31, 2014)

Guys, when I say it's a warning I don't mean in a nagative sense... unless of course someone DOES squander away their life. More like.... a friendly reminder?? Like hey... you know you have this chance as a human life to meet the creator and actually KNOW and realize that you are much much more than your physical shell?? What could be greater an experience than that??!!! Are you REALLY sure you want to spend this time drinking and gambling instead?? 

Yes, it's positive that we do in fact HAVE this chance to meet the creator while in this life... I would hazard a guess that nobody has reached that high of a spiritual state in a long time however.  And it's not reserved for only Sikhs either... And I fail to see how only focusing on only the physical and not remembering the creator and our spiritual side will ever get us there... Mata Bhag Kaur Ji, was one who was known to have reached this state.  By her example we can see that this is a state beyond the physical (ie its not simply getting along with your neighbours) because she attained the state of param hans and lost touch alsmost completely with the physical that she had not even noticed that her clothes had become tattered and she was almost naked (that`s also an account in the favour of women donning dastaars because she was ordered by Guru Ji to put clothes on and also a dastaar).  Other accounts are the state that the Gurus were able to attain in order to withstand torture... do you think that ANYONE could ever possibly attain such a state without fear, if they believed that this life was all they had to look forward to? No way! Everyone would automatically be scared because they would fear losing their only life and ceasing to exist!  The Gurus however not just believed but KNEW that they were much more than their physical shell... and that physical death was not the end! So they endured the torture knowing confidently that they will continue on. 

Certainly giving selflessly,helps and is neceaasry as we are all really ONE, but there needs to be a balance.  A person can give and give and give - give away all their possesions and money, and even volunteer every spare minute of their time to help others, but if they have no rembrance of the creator, if they don`t realize that they are much more than the physical, they will not find the creator - or the divine light of the creator within them.  

So their needs to be both... selfless service, and living in harmony with creation on a physical level, but also reflection on the spiritual, rembrance of the creator, inward reflection, learning and realization that there is WAY more to existence than only this physical life... that this physical life is not what we are confined to... that we go on and do not cease to exist!

"We not human beings seeking a spiritual experience; In fact we are spiritual beings having a human experience."

(Ambarsaria Ji: insert whatever word you want to you use for spiritual... I am using spiritual not to try and define that specific 'word' as having a specific definition but it is the word I closest associate with the state I am trying to convey... does that make sense?  --- Let's not get focused on semantics of the actual word. You know that I mean..... the nonphysical part of us that trancsends the physical... that bit of us which is the 'I AM' the 'Doer' the 'Experiencer' - the bit that is actually us, our essence... not the flesh, nor the cells that make it up, nor the proteins that make them up, or the molecules, or atoms, or electrons, quarks etc... I mean the bit of us that exists beyond all of that! The conscious, the aware part (and dont start with the definition of consciousness too lol same thing!! the bit that experiences haha) That's what I mean when I say 'spiritual'  I don't care about different definitions of the actual word. I just don't know what else to call it because no matter what word I try to use, you will try to define it into some limited sense of definition. Yet I know exactly what it is I am trying to describe, the state, the 'being' that I am trying to convey...) *ok....breathe Akasha.... LOL*  Did that make sense???


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## Sherdil (Jul 31, 2014)

Akasha said:
			
		

> Other accounts are the state that the Gurus were able to attain in  order to withstand torture... do you think that ANYONE could ever  possibly attain such a state without fear, if they believed that this  life was all they had to look forward to? No way! Everyone would  automatically be scared because they would fear losing their only life  and ceasing to exist!  The Gurus however not just believed but KNEW that  they were much more than their physical shell... and that physical  death was not the end! So they endured the torture knowing confidently  that they will continue on.



This reminds me of Buddhist  monks immolating themselves in peaceful protest. It's amazing that  they can sit so serenely while being burned alive. 







I don't think this is the measuring stick of anyone's mukti, but mukti in itself can be viewed as freedom from suffering. The whole idea of Samsara is merely a synonym for suffering. Recognition that you are the cause of your own suffering is the first step (aapeh beejh, aapeh hee khaho). This, along with control over the 5 thieves, can lead one to happiness and contentment. 

IMO eacesign:


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2014)

warning (ˈwɔːnɪŋ)
n
1. a hint, intimation, threat, etc, of harm or danger
2. advice to beware or desist
3. an archaic word for notice6
adj
4. (prenominal) intended or serving to warn: a warning look.
5. (Biology) (of the coloration of certain distasteful or poisonous animals) having conspicuous markings, which predators recognize and learn to avoid; aposematic

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/warning



> Guys, when I say it's a warning I don't mean in a nagative sense...



I do not think it could be taken in any other way than a negative one lol 



> Like hey... you know you have this chance as a human life to meet the creator and actually KNOW and realize that you are much much more than your physical shell??



I am too busy living to meet anyone, any realisation that I am much more than my physical shell would probably impede my current lifestyle. 



> What could be greater an experience than that??!!!



I have no idea, could you describe what this experience feels like? 



> Are you REALLY sure you want to spend this time drinking and gambling instead??



most drunks and gamblers are very sure indeed about what they want to do, this is all sounding very carrot and stick to me. 



> Yes, it's positive that we do in fact HAVE this chance to meet the creator while in this life...



like as a prize? in a gameshow? will they film it? will there be appropriate music? maybe backstage videos of the Creator all apprehensive for the big meet?



> I would hazard a guess that nobody has reached that high of a spiritual state in a long time however



since when has Sikhism been all about aspiring for something that nobody has achieved in a long time? Thats a way of life for the common person! Be a Sikh and meet the Creator (advertising disclaimer-no one has achieved this in a long time), whatever happened to just working, contemplating, giving and living?



> And I fail to see how only focusing on only the physical and not remembering the creator and our spiritual side will ever get us there...



I do not think you can perform as a Sikh physically and not be spiritual. 



> Mata Bhag Kaur Ji, was one who was known to have reached this state.



was she now



> . Mata Bhag Kaur Ji, was one who was known to have reached this state. By her example we can see that this is a state beyond the physical (ie its not simply getting along with your neighbours) because she attained the state of param hans and lost touch alsmost completely with the physical that she had not even noticed that her clothes had become tattered and she was almost naked (that`s also an account in the favour of women donning dastaars because she was ordered by Guru Ji to put clothes on and also a dastaar).



I found this http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/sikh-women-turban-dastaar/



> The renowned Panthic writer Kavi Santokh Singh Jee in his Granth, Gur Pratap Sooraj mentions the Hukam Sri Guru Gobind Singh gave to Mata Bhaag Kaur. Mata Jee had reached a very high spiritual state and had stopped wearing clothes. The Singhs complained to Dasmesh Pitha Jee, who summoned Mata Bhaag Kaur. Kavi Santokh Singh records the Hukam Guru Sahib gave to Mata Jee:
> ਗਰੁਵੀ ਸਾਂਗ ਹਾਥ ਮਹਿ ਧਰੈ,
> ਸਦਾ ਆਨੰਦ ਏਕ ਰੱਸ ਥਿਰੈ।
> ਕੇਤਕ ਮਾਸ ਨਗਨ ਜਬ ਰਹੀ,
> ...



This is all based on a 'Granth' written by the above panthic writer, which confirms that Mataji walked around naked because of this state. I do not think this is fitting behaviour for a Sikh woman, regardless of their spiritual state...., I do not think it is fitting behaviour for any woman,.



> Other accounts are the state that the Gurus were able to attain in order to withstand torture... do you think that ANYONE could ever possibly attain such a state without fear, if they believed that this life was all they had to look forward to? No way! Everyone would automatically be scared because they would fear losing their only life and ceasing to exist!



you mean they cheated? they did not really die to show us that the truth was more important than death? they died because they knew they would be ok? I find this tarnishes them somewhat, I have always had this view that they went into the unknown, brave, truthful people, that went into the unknown, and they did it because that was less important than the truth.



> So they endured the torture knowing confidently that they will continue on.



can torture be endured confidently? I always thought it was more about acceptance of Hukam, I thought that was the lesson, not some get of jail card.



> Certainly giving selflessly,helps and is neceaasry as we are all really ONE, but there needs to be a balance. A person can give and give and give - give away all their possesions and money, and even volunteer every spare minute of their time to help others, but if they have no rembrance of the creator, if they don`t realize that they are much more than the physical, they will not find the creator - or the divine light of the creator within them.



If it means I, and those round me, are spared me walking round naked, I think I will pass, I mean it sounds like great fun, hankering for something that no one has had for  ' a long time' and then finding out all it does is make you want to strip off, Im out. 



> Did that make sense???



errr no


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 31, 2014)

harry Ji..BEST said.  I wonder how Sikhs can treat our Gurus sacrifices like a "Game"..Some say they had power..some say they used magic..others say they knew whats on the other end..blah blah blah..SGGS clearly tells us NO One had/has come back..No one knows. period...but we continue to play our little games and second guess the Gurus..wah wah.  HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNAH is the very First Page of our Gurus Life and Instruction..nothing more.:japosatnamwaheguru::kaurkhalsaflagred:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 31, 2014)

Mai Bhaag Kaur Sikhism's very first and own Naked sadhu..wow...that was perhaps the only missing link..ha ha and now we have it..a Sikh can reach that spiritual a height that he/she discards clothes too...Now I KNOW why the SGPC paid for Guru ka Langgar at Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013 to feed the thousands of Naked sadhus...because the SGPC NOW is in the able "hands" of the SPIRITUAL ONES ....and they are trying to re-establish that missing link with  the Saffron coloured Bhagwans and all.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 31, 2014)

I give up... I guess if Sikhi is what you guys say then I am not Sikh because I believe (know) inside that I am more than my physical shell. 

According to you I must be athiest if in belief to be 'correct' Sikh even though vast majority of Sikhs believe in and strive for the spiritual that I am having a hard time to explain to you... But that I know exists.  

So since I can't not believe in something that I have glimpsed myself, and I could never be athiest and to you guys the physical is all there is to Sikhi... It's all about getting along with the neighbours so to speak.... So in light of that revelation I have decided to not take Amrit in Sept.

I guess I am not Sikh in belief according to you so I should not become Khalsa if what I believe is not 'true' Sikhi.

And to me if it's all just about living a swell physical life with others and then ceasing to exist, I can't follow that belief... So I guess I will once again embark upon a journey to find where I belong. But this idea of Sikhi without spirituality is not for me.  I am not and never was an athiest. And I guess I should no longer consider myself Sikh either.

I'll leave my account open for a day or so to check IMs from a few ppl I talk to on here and then I'll make my way somewhere else.

Regards...


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

Sat sri akaal Akasha ji ,

This forum should be named as "Atheistphilosophy.net"    

and its always spiritually uplifting to stay away from  here  It really sucks to argue with Someone Spiritually Dead .




all i wanna say is summed up by Kabir ji ,


ਰਾਮ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਗਾਂਠਿ ਨ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹ ॥ राम पदारथु पाइ कै कबीरा गांठि न खोल्ह ॥ Rām paḏārath pā▫e kai kabīrā gāŉṯẖ na kẖolĥ.
The Treasure of the Lord is obtained, O Kabeer, but do not undo its knot.

ਨਹੀ ਪਟਣੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਰਖੂ ਨਹੀ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਲੁ ॥੨੩॥ नही पटणु नही पारखू नही गाहकु नही मोलु ॥२३॥ Nahī pataṇ nahī pārkẖū nahī gāhak nahī mol. ||23|| 
There is no market to sell it, no appraiser, no customer, and no price. ||23||


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2014)

Akasha said:


> (Ambarsaria Ji: insert whatever word you want to you use for spiritual... I am using spiritual not to try and define that specific 'word' as having a specific definition but it is the word I closest associate with the state I am trying to convey... does that make sense?  --- Let's not get focused on semantics of the actual word. You know that I mean..... the nonphysical part of us that trancsends the physical... that bit of us which is the 'I AM' the 'Doer' the 'Experiencer' - the bit that is actually us, our essence... not the flesh, nor the cells that make it up, nor the proteins that make them up, or the molecules, or atoms, or electrons, quarks etc... I mean the bit of us that exists beyond all of that! The conscious, the aware part (and dont start with the definition of consciousness too lol same thing!! the bit that experiences haha) That's what I mean when I say 'spiritual'  I don't care about different definitions of the actual word. I just don't know what else to call it because no matter what word I try to use, you will try to define it into some limited sense of definition. Yet I know exactly what it is I am trying to describe, the state, the 'being' that I am trying to convey...) *ok....breathe Akasha.... LOL*  Did that make sense???


_Akasha ji thanks for your post. I could not find a post that I did a bit ago. It related to how beyond physical we continue at spiritual level from the past and do so in the future. So I do not know where I am being put into in terms of Camp 1 or Camp 2 as at the start of the thread.  I believe I conveyed that a soul as a wanderer that just juxtaposes from past monkey , to present human and future snake as a whole is not in line with my understanding through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We are part of many in the past and continuing present and we will leave ourselves in many present and into the future via not only humans but all else that we interact with. This is what spirituality means to me and beyond immediate genetics of siblings and stuff, it is all non-physical.

I hope that clarifies for you where I come from as some times posts and words seem to be taken as positions versus explanations at times not well expressed or understood.

Hope it helps you and Sikhism is not abrupt about now I am a Sikh and now I am not, so we all need to make and understand our own relationship to guidance or teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I strongly disagree with all who call it this is it and we either achieve union/mukti/enlightenment, etc., or we are dead meat forever. For me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is just not that. It teaches you to avail you of the opportunity but it certainly i snot be all and end all from a lifespan perspective as many a people postulate here or other places.

Sat Sri Akal and appreciate your effort and posts.

_*PS: *Akasha ji be rest assured that I am not here to oppose for opposition sake or win an argument. I simply feel blessed that I can share and if only it could be of some positive use to someone, specially much younger than me. No acknowledgment required or expected. Nothing more and nothing less.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 1, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Mai Bhaag Kaur Sikhism's very first and own Naked sadhu..wow...that was perhaps the only missing link..ha ha and now we have it..a Sikh can reach that spiritual a height that he/she discards clothes too...Now I KNOW why the SGPC paid for Guru ka Langgar at Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013 to feed the thousands of Naked sadhus...because the SGPC NOW is in the able "hands" of the SPIRITUAL ONES ....and they are trying to re-establish that missing link with  the Saffron coloured Bhagwans and all.


Strange, I am trying to decipher who is 'eka mai' and which jugat she married (is guru sahib teaching us marketing) and gave birth to three sons, and who are these ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ approved in His court - is guru sahib referring to three physical sons who are approved in His court or referring to ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ godly virtues which dominates.

Akasha Jee it is the 'surat' which listens and guide and not our physical body


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

Akasha ji, You shouldn't regard what anyone on here says to help you decide your sikhi.

ALL you have to do is READ the gurbani.
and IF the gurbani speaks to you and you can relate to it spiritually,then you know where to go.

You will not learn more than a few ounces of spirituality from anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter.
*Spirituality ALL comes 'antarghat' and from within you.*

When you meditate and jap naam with your *MIND* (not your tongue as most of them on here think! ), then you will experience the REAL shabad, akath katha(unspoken word), amrit and much much more that gurbani talks about. 
It has to be experienced to be understood.
You will even identify exactly where your Consciousness sits in your body, where your soul's spiritual heart is, where the jyot and dasam duar manifest.....etc..

and No matter what anyone says on here,.. MAYA consists of 3 attributes or 3 gunas (satogun,rajogun,tamogun)
and the *ONLY way to go beyond these is Spiritually..........period!*


whatever you choose, the choice is yours, at the end of the day.
I participate in some deep spiritual talks elsewhere with other gurmukhs. I can let you know via pm if you need more details.....just let me know !


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> and No matter what anyone says on here,.. MAYA consists of 3 attributes or 3 gunas (satogun,rajogun,tamogun)



Isn't that a statement in itself?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Sat sri akaal Akasha ji ,
> 
> This forum should be named as "Atheistphilosophy.net"
> 
> and its always spiritually uplifting to stay away from  here .



...and yet you are here


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Isn't that a statement in itself?


 
Yes, I believe it is.
Do you understand MAYA to consist of some other attributes ??
Maybe I missed something ?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Well, I think the discussion has strayed far beyond its meaning. 
In my belief, being spiritual does not necessarily mean you have to believe in miracles or magic. Spirituality as a word is implicated in a wide number of ways, the word represents different things to different people. IMO Vedic or Dharmic terms (in the sense in which they are commonly used) do not do full justice to Sikh spirituality, and nor does the Abrahamic theology, for that matter. Perhaps we read too much into the metaphors of Gurbani and miss the miss the real meaning, or we want to interpret Gurbani in the mindset we have been raised on, a porridge of faiths, which it is not.


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Yes, I believe it is.
> Do you understand MAYA to consist of some other attributes ??
> Maybe I missed something ?



If that is what you believe, I do not want to argue on that. 
But from what I understand, the Rajo/Tamo/Sato Guna philosophy of Maya is an inherently Hindu concept (nothing wrong in that though), the Sikh concept of Maya is a little different.
If the Hindu concept is to 'avoid the pond', the Sikh way is to 'blossom forth from the pond like a Lotus does, unattached to the mud inside the pond'. That is how I think, at least.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Well, I think the discussion has strayed far beyond its meaning.
> In my belief, being spiritual does not necessarily mean you have to believe in miracles or magic. Spirituality as a word is implicated in a wide number of ways, the word represents different things to different people. IMO Vedic or Dharmic terms (in the sense in which they are commonly used) do not do full justice to Sikh spirituality, and nor does the Abrahamic theology, for that matter. Perhaps we read too much into the metaphors of Gurbani and miss the miss the real meaning, or we want to interpret Gurbani in the mindset we have been raised on, a porridge of faiths, which it is not.


 
The above is just your way of saying_ ''I don't know what spirituality is and it can't apply to me''_

Do you think that gurus and sikhi condemned all ancient scriptures or was it the practices being performed by the so called translators and readers ?


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> ...and yet you are here



you can check the ratio of my  total posts to time here .


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> The above is just your way of saying_ ''I don't know what spirituality is and it can't apply to me''_
> 
> Do you think that gurus and sikhi condemned all ancient scriptures or was it the practices being performed by the so called translators and readers ?



So, you are saying that philosophy of the Gurus was practically an extension of the philosophy of Ancient Hindu Scriptures?

PS- Sir, I was a student of Hindu and Buddhist theology, I have read a 'large' part of those scriptures, my knowledge about the Hindu scriptures does not come from hearsay.


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> you can check the ratio of my  total posts to time here .



The time you spend here is entirely your choice brother, but if are going to call everyone who does not agree with your interpretation of Sikhi an atheist, that's not quite right, is it?


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> But from what I understand, the Rajo/Tamo/Sato Guna philosophy of Maya is an inherently Hindu concept (nothing wrong in that though), the Sikh concept of Maya is a little different.


 
I don't think or understand the  sikh concept of maya no different to that or any different to what Neo and co. show us in ''The Matrix".
I can't understand how you see it as ''a little different''.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> So, you are saying that philosophy of the Gurus was practically an extension of the philosophy of Ancient Hindu Scriptures?
> 
> PS- Sir, I was a student of Hindu and Buddhist theology, I have read a 'large' part of those scriptures, my knowledge about the Hindu scriptures does not come from hearsay.


 
I never said anything about sikhi being an extension or the missing gaps.
I asked your opinion on whether they condemned the scriptures themselves or the practices being performed.(bearing in mind that all the practices in every faith are never directly in accordance with scriptures)


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> I don't think or understand the  sikh concept of maya no different to that or any different to what Neo and co. show us in ''The Matrix".
> I can't understand how you see it as ''a little different''.



Well, if you accept the Tri Gunas philosophy of Maya, then probably you accept the Devis/Devtas as the inacarnations of the Hindu Cosmic Shakti too. It is a part of the same concept written in the same scripture, explained by the same theology.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> The time you spend here is entirely your choice brother, but if are going to call everyone who does not agree with your interpretation of Sikhi an atheist, that's not quite right, is it?



and anyone who disagree with your interpretation of Sikhi , becomes Hindu or Abrahmic ?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> I asked your opinion on whether they condemned the scriptures themselves or the practices being performed.(bearing in mind that all the practices in every faith are never directly in accordance with scriptures)



They didn't condemn, but they certainly rejected the existing Hindu theology. Vedas, Smritis, Upnishads ARE the Hindu theology, Gurus clearly state in Gurbani they didn't think in accordance to these scriptures.


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> and anyone who disagree with your interpretation of Sikhi , becomes Hindu or Abrahmic ?



Lol...Is pointing out a Dharmic or Abrahamic argument a crime? Isnt that a part of the discussion? I do not condemn any faith. If someone is a Hindu or Budhhist, I'll still respect his faith, but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of other faiths?


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of other faiths?



but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of Atheism ?


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2014)

> I give up... I guess if Sikhi is what you guys say then I am not Sikh because I believe (know) inside that I am more than my physical shell.



I do not think anyone has caste doubts on your Sikhi, I personally believe you to be more of a Sikh than myself, I got used to being a heretic long ago.



> According to you I must be athiest if in belief to be 'correct' Sikh even though vast majority of Sikhs believe in and strive for the spiritual that I am having a hard time to explain to you... But that I know exists.



Again, no one has said this, in fact you are inferring I am an atheist, which I am not, and I actually take issue with, I have no problem with the spiritual at all, the boys (chaz/Luckyji) have influenced me to the point where, yes I can see what it is all about, yes I respect it, No, its not for me. 



> So since I can't not believe in something that I have glimpsed myself, and I could never be athiest and to you guys the physical is all there is to Sikhi... It's all about getting along with the neighbours so to speak.... So in light of that revelation I have decided to not take Amrit in Sept.



I am not an atheist, no one on this forum is, We are all Sikhs, why do you have to get on or keep anyone happy, if you know in your heart you are on your path, then you have to go for it, that is what this is all about, not trying to placate people, or be popular, I know what is in my heart, that is what I write about, I am sorry I appear to have offended you, but you could never live my life and I could never live yours, so why should our methods of connection be the same? Why should we even be able to understand each others methods? it really does not matter.



> I guess I am not Sikh in belief according to you so I should not become Khalsa if what I believe is not 'true' Sikhi.



Again no one has said anything like this



> And I guess I should no longer consider myself Sikh either.



I have re read my post again, I will sum up the argument if you wish, spirituality has nothing to do with stripping off, Suraj Prakash, miracles or meeting god. 

Spirituality, in my opinion, has everything to do with an attitude to life, connection to Creator, and Creation and being in consonance with all, to that end, I aspire for spirituality.


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of Atheism ?



How exactly am I an atheist? Because I don't believe in miracles, that's why?


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Well, if you accept the Tri Gunas philosophy of *Maya*, then probably you accept the *Devis/Devtas* as the inacrnations of the Hindu Cosmic Shakti. It is a part of the same concept written in the same scripture, explained by the same theology.


 
Look, quite simply if you accept Maya, then you accept the understanding of tri-gunas and the illusion.... and I do understand and accept.

Likewise, if you accept Devi/devtas and hindu cosmos, then you accept the understanding or what you think you understand..... and quite frankly I don't accept or find any reason to blend them with the Maya, illusion, chauthapadh, going beyond...etc... that gurbani speaks about.

This is the same kind of problem where reincarnation and caste system keep getting shadowed under the same umbrella.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> How exactly am I an atheist? Because I don't believe in miracles, that's why?



How believe in  " Conscious Creator " and  "Soul" appear Non Sikhi to you ?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Look, quite simply if you accept Maya, then you accept the understanding of tri-gunas and the illusion.... and I do understand and accept.
> 
> Likewise, if you accept Devi/devtas and hindu cosmos, then you accept the understanding or what you think you understand..... and quite frankly I don't accept or find any reason to blend them with the Maya, illusion, chauthapadh, going beyond...etc... that gurbani speaks about.
> 
> This is the same kind of problem where reincarnation and caste system keep getting shadowed under the same umbrella.



As far as my knowledge goes, Gurbani has many mentions of the word Maya, but nowhere are the Three Gunas named (thoug they are referred to as the three attrubutes at many places). Gurbani does not endorse the concept the same way as the Hindu scriptures do. Hindu philosophy says the Maya is a product of the प्रारबद्ध कर्म, a product of the Cosmic Shakti which also brings forth the त्रिदेव Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesha.

On the other hand, Gurbani does say that the theology of Vedas, Smrities, Puranas is nbot the road to freedom. This does not equal rejection of the concept of Maya, or condemnation of those scriptures, but simply that it has its own view of Maya.



> Sri Rag, Third Guru.
> 
> ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
> In the three temperaments is the attachment of wealth. The Guru-beloved attains to the fourth state of celestial beatitude.
> ...



Simply beacuse Gurbani illustrates its point using the concept does not automatically mean it endorses the whole theology this word represents. 

Baba Farid also uses the Islamic concept of the death angel (ਮਲਕੁ or Malikul-maut) and this Shabad is included in the Gurbani does not mean Gurbani endorses the Islamic concept of death. Hope you see my point.


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> How believe in Non Physical "Soul" and "Creator "  appear Non Sikhi to you ?



Please don't twist the argument like this. No one has denied the 'Creator', it is just the Vedic and Abrahamic concept of Creator which I deny.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Please don't twist the argument like this. No one has denied the 'Creator', it is just the Vedic and Abrahamic concept of Creator which I deny.



dear i used " atheist"  only for those who deny "Conscious Creator " and " Soul" and there are many here  . and i respect atheists and their logic but to me thats not Sikhi  .


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> dear i used " atheist"  only for those who deny "Conscious Creator " and " Soul" and there are many here  . and i respect atheists and their logic but to me thats not Sikhi  .



Then you agree that bringing Hindu concepts into Sikhi is not Sikhi either?


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Then you agree that bringing Hindu concepts into Sikhi is not Sikhi either?




you mean "Creator" and "Soul " is a Hindu concept ?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> you mean "Creator" and "Soul " is a Hindu concept ?



I am talking about Triguna, Mukti, chanting Gurbani like Sikh Mantras, transmigration, heaven/hell...


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> I am talking about Triguna, Mukti, chanting Gurbani like Sikh Mantras, transmigration, heaven/hell...



these can be discussed

Mukti to me means " Oneness" of our Soul(AAtma ) with  Supereme Soul (Parmatma) and its very much present in Sikhi .


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> these can be discussed
> 
> Mukti to me means " Oneness" of our Soul(AAtma ) with  Supereme Soul (Parmatma) .



Sikhi believes in 'Jeewan-Mukat', Hindu concept of Mukti is a lot different. Its not just Hindu rhetoric.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Sikhi believes in 'Jeewan-Mukat', Hindu concept of Mukti is a lot different. Its not just Hindu rhetoric.




Are you sure "Jeewan-Mukat"  is exclusive Sikh and not a Dharmic Concept  that predates Sikhi ?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Are you sure "Jeewan-Mukat"  is exclusive Sikh and not a Dharmic Concept  that predates Sikhi ?



I am sure it was never used before in a way it is presented in Gurbani. In other philosophies, it equals renunciation and a hermit-like life. I would like to go into the details, but I don't think it will do justice to the topic of this thread.


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

One more thing before I take leave from this discussion. I urge all forum members to maintain decorum and refrain on name-calling other forum members. Simply because someone does not think like you do does not make him/her an atheist. Religious arrogance is not good.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> I am sure it was never used before in a way it is presented in Gurbani. In other philosophies, it equals renunciation and a hermit-like life. I would like to go into the details, but I don't think it will do justice to the topic of this thread.



dear "Jeewan Mukta" is core / fundamental Dharmic  concept that  is present there from Pre Historic Times .  and it has nothing to do with hermite -like life . 


*Jivanmukta* (derived from the word, Jivanmukti, a combination of Sanskrit words jiva and mukti) is someone who, in the Advaita philosophy of Hinduism, has gained dradh nishthaa, *firmly assimilated knowledge of the Self- and is liberated while living in a human body, free from rebirth*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jivanmukta


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> dear "Jeewan Mukta" is core / fundamental Dharmic  concept that  is present there from Pre Historic Times .  and it has nothing to do with hermite -like life .
> 
> 
> *Jivanmukta* (derived from the word, Jivanmukti, a combination of Sanskrit words jiva and mukti) is someone who, in the Advaita philosophy of Hinduism, has gained dradh nishthaa, *firmly assimilated knowledge of the Self- and is liberated while living in a human body, free from rebirth*
> ...



Advaita Hinduism is a huge votary of renunciation. If your primary source of knowledge about Hinduism is Wikipedia, I seriously would not want to argue then. Thanks.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> If your primary source of knowledge about Hinduism is Wikipedia, I seriously would not want to argue then. Thanks.



Sir Authenticity of your source of knowledge was evident when  you said 

" Sikhi believes in 'Jeewan-Mukat', Hindu concept of Mukti is a lot different. Its not just Hindu rhetoric", 

you just wanna dissociate good from others and critisize them  and that s not the way our Guru Sahib shown us .Thanks


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## kggr001 (Aug 1, 2014)

Sikhi is in noway atheistic.



> Sikhi does believe in reincarnation.
> Sikhi believes in Ek Onkaar.
> Sikhi does warn us everytime to find the lord before it's to late.
> Sikhi believes this world is a dream. (Doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything worldy related).
> ...



Also none here need to tell me that I'm not seeing jewels in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, for me a warning is a jewel itself, it tells me what I'm doing wrong it kinda motivates me on my journey. 

Like there is a hole in the ground, they put a warning sign next to it. 
So the warning is about something negative however if you follow it will be positive for you.

Also we were talking about why Guru's didn't care to sacrifice themselfs for others.
I do believe it is cause the Guru's had obtained everything in this world. The same did not apply for other people. What Guru's want from us is to be in the same state they were in.

Bhagat Farid Ji even said "Those who recognize the True Lord - I kiss their feet".


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Sir Authenticity of your source of knowledge was evident when  you said
> 
> " Sikhi believes in 'Jeewan-Mukat', Hindu concept of Mukti is a lot different. Its not just Hindu rhetoric", you just wanna dissociate good from others and critisize them  and that s not the way our Guru Sahib shown us .Thanks



Perhaps you don't know what criticism means. Anyways, I have better things to do than justify my knowledge or Sikhi before a person who would call me an Atheist if I don't agree with him.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2014)

aristotle said:


> They didn't condemn, but they certainly rejected the existing Hindu theology. Vedas, Smritis, Upnishads ARE the Hindu theology, Gurus clearly state in Gurbani they didn't think in accordance to these scriptures.


 
You can kindly show me in another thread if you wish, where they directly rejected theology.  
Remember that only the brahmins were funded by kings and leaders of the land to study and to teach/preach. And they surely abused these positions by charging monies, making up hocus pocus and diversion of true messages at their own leisure.
This resulted in massive blind following practices, false promises, completely blind rituals, misleading and self gaining schemes for brahmins and pandits able to take liberties.



aristotle said:


> As far as my knowledge goes, Gurbani has many mentions of the word Maya, *but nowhere are the Three Gunas named* (thou*g they are referred to as the three attrubutes *at many places). Gurbani does not endorse the concept the same way as the Hindu scriptures do. Hindu philosophy says the Maya is a product of the प्रारबद्ध कर्म, a product of the Cosmic Shakti which also brings forth the त्रिदेव Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesha.


 
Is Guna not attributes ?

3 gunas mentioned clearly in many places and below is just 3 examples

 ang 1123
ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
Raj guṇ ṯam guṇ saṯ guṇ kahī▫ai ih ṯerī sabẖ mā▫i▫ā. Raajas, the quality of energy and activity; Taamas, the quality of darkness and inertia; and Satvas, the quality of purity and light, are all called the creations of Maya, Your illusion.  
ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
Cẖa▫uthe paḏ ka▫o jo nar cẖīnĥai ṯinĥ hī param paḏ pā▫i▫ā. ||2||
That man who realizes the fourth state - he alone obtains the supreme state. ||2||  

ang 1038
ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥
Raj ṯam saṯ kal ṯerī cẖẖā▫i▫ā.
Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva.

ang840
ਚਉਦਸਿ ਚਉਥੇ ਥਾਵਹਿ ਲਹਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
Cẖa▫uḏas cẖa▫uthe thāvėh lėh pāvai. 
The Fourteenth Day: One who enters into the fourth state,  
ਰਾਜਸ ਤਾਮਸ ਸਤ ਕਾਲ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥
Rājas ṯāmas saṯ kāl samāvai. 
overcomes time, and the three qualities of raajas, taamas and satva.  



> On the other hand, Gurbani does say that the theology of Vedas, Smrities, Puranas is nbot the road to freedom. This does not equal rejection of the concept of Maya, or condemnation of those scriptures, but simply that it has its own view of Maya.
> 
> Simply beacuse Gurbani illustrates its point using the concept does not automatically mean it endorses the whole theology this word represents.
> 
> Baba Farid also uses the Islamic concept of the death angel (ਮਲਕੁ or Malikul-maut) and this Shabad is included in the Gurbani does not mean Gurbani endorses the Islamic concept of death. Hope you see my point.


 
I have no idea what illustration you are referring to.

Again, look..... Gurbani makes references to Janak, Prahlaad, Dhroo, Bidar, Naraad...etc   and many many other characters.
In these cases we don't need to read the vedas but the people of that day had basic understanding to contexts of the shabads quoted with such references. Unfortunately, we don't have that same awareness. 
Therefore, just a basic _''look thru their spectacles'' _is required to understand the context of the shabads in question isn't it ??

For example, Dhroo is clearly mentioned in a number of places in Gurbani as the 5 yr old that went beyond 3 gunas and met the Lord.
_ਧ੍ਰੂ ਕਉ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਸੰਗ ॥੧॥
Ḏẖarū ka▫o mili▫ā har nisang. ||1||
The Lord definitely met Dhroo. ||1||_

Therefore, I cannot understand why you seem to imply that to look thru vedic specs to understand context of shabad, one has to be in hindu vicinity or in a mandir ???........This is nonsense!


When one becomes more spiritual, you begin to see and acknowledge the layers under the surface and see _''Sabh Gobind hai, Gobind binh na koi''_
........... Yes again, that is a statement I am making and I stand strongly by it.

If you understand all faiths as different people looking at whole mankind thru _their own specs_, then their is no difference between you seeing the rest of the prejudice in the world as a norm thru your own tints.

If you segregate the way a Hindu see's thru his specs compared to your specs, when you don't even know what he sees, then you will also see caste segregation in Jatt attitude to life Vs Chamar attitude, lohar vs kumar..etc..
.....What in Christ's name is gurmat about that ?


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## aristotle (Aug 1, 2014)

Lucky Ji,
You believe that simply because a term appears in the Gurbani, it means Guru Sahib endorsed it. Gurbani is beautiful poetry, if you translate poetry into black and blue, it is not going to lead you to the spirit of that poetry. I hope you understand that.
Consider this Shabad by Baba Farid Ji,


> Shaloks Of Shaykh Fareed Jee:
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> ...



Baba Farid Ji clearly refers to the MIslamic messenger of death Malikul-Maut. But the meaning implied here is not the messenger of  death, but the coming of death over a person. By your theory, Malikil-Maut should also exist, robbing people of their lives as decreed by Allah.



> Again, look..... Gurbani makes references to Janak, Prahlaad, Dhroo, Bidar, Naraad...etc and many many other characters.
> In these cases we don't need to read the vedas but the people of that day had basic understanding to contexts of the shabads quoted with such references. Unfortunately, we don't have that same awareness.



That was basically my point. Gurus preached in the language of the people, using metaphors and examples which the people of their time could understand. Because Dhruv, Prahlad, Janak and other characters of Hindu mythology are referred to in the Gurbani does not necessarily mean they existed, it just means Guru Sahib used their examples to
drive home their own message. The same is the case with the then widely used terms like _Mukti, Maya, Brahm _etc. The most important thing is the big picture, not the linguists or mythology.



> For example, Dhroo is clearly mentioned in a number of places in Gurbani as the 5 yr old that went beyond 3 gunas and met the Lord.
> ਧ੍ਰੂ ਕਉ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਸੰਗ ॥੧॥
> Ḏẖarū ka▫o mili▫ā har nisang. ||1||
> The Lord definitely met Dhroo. ||1||
> ...



By looking through 'Vedic specs' I mean distorting the meaning of Shabads such as these to suit one's own needs. This Shabad can very well be used by an arguer to prove that Dhruv existed in flesh and blood sometime in history, and that Hindu God Vishnu appeared before him and granted him _Dhruvapada_. There is no justification against such an argument, but you see, it just misses the big picture.



> If you segregate the way a Hindu see's thru his specs compared to your specs, when you don't even know what he sees, then you will also see caste segregation in Jatt attitude to life Vs Chamar attitude, lohar vs kumar..etc..
> .....What in Christ's name is gurmat about that ?



I am not looking to segregate anyone, perhaps you just assumed that, and you should not. A Hindu is perfectly justified in believing in the Hindu mythology, as is a Christian if he believes in his Bible. But how is looking for the central meaning of a Shabad, and stating that we should give importance to the big picture rather than the metaphors, become an attack on Hinduism? I strongly stand by my point that Gurbani was not intended for the elite, it was written in metaphors the commonfolk could understand; if the Gurus had preached somewhere in the Mid-East they would probably have predominantly used Abrahamic examples instead of Vedic terms, because, you see, it is not the terms or words that are important, it is the central meaning that is. I don't understand why this thing is too hard to accept for some people.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 1, 2014)

harmanpreet singh said:


> dear "Jeewan Mukta" is core / fundamental Dharmic  concept that  is present there from Pre Historic Times .  and it has nothing to do with hermite -like life .
> 
> 
> *Jivanmukta* (derived from the word, Jivanmukti, a combination of Sanskrit words jiva and mukti) is someone who, in the Advaita philosophy of Hinduism, has gained dradh nishthaa, *firmly assimilated knowledge of the Self- and is liberated while living in a human body, free from rebirth*
> ...


Let me sum it up with quote from gurbani once for all. Gurbani jivan mukta is  ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ ਮਰਹੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ over here it is referring to 'no rebirth of evil deeds, destructive thoughts' whereas as I can see in advaita philosophy it is rebirth of physical body. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.1103. As gurbani tells, ' ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਬ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਕਤ ਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ p.302 once I am in bliss now my mind does not think of superfluous deeds.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2014)

kggr01 ji thanks for your post and being specific in describing your understanding. I am not a judge but if I were to think aloud I believe vast number of Sikhs will agree with what you have stated as Sikhi. Again, I am not a judge and I am quite sure that most participate here to extend their understanding beyond simply what others tell or do. I have three questions about your points as the rest are generally congruent with my own understanding too.





kggr001 said:


> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>   <o:AllowPNG/>  </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->  Sikhi does believe in reincarnation.
> 
> 
> _What will happen to me when I die? Does my soul  immediately lock stock and barrel enter another life form body?_
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2014)

I did not call anyone an athiest. Rather I said that a non-spiritual interpretation of Sikhi is athiestic in belief.  If you look at the definition of an athiest they acknowledge that they can never know whether there is a [God] or not, or if there is anything past physical existence or not, which equates to most as there being no [God] and being no existence beyond the physical (it can't be proven so therefore it must not exist OR it's worthless to even think about it)  There ARE those of you who fall into that category... only focusing on the physical life and that's it.  All interpretation of Gurbani pertains to some 'state of mind' or 'animalistic behaviour' or 'death of evil deeds' etc and not an interpretation in the sense of an actual [Conscious Creator] (notice in previous posts I am not describing the Christian concept of God etc. or existence outside of the physical or transmigration (notice my take is not the same as the traditional body hopping version of reincarnation but more spiritual progress of the ONE universal consciousness).

When I read Gurbani I fail to see how someone would go to such lengths to confuse people into believing outward metaphors that speak of [spirituality] only to have hidden some meaning that is so far removed from the words they have written that only a very few even come up with that meaning... (case in point, I still fail to see how japji gets some of the ideas he does out of the shabads he posted... as there is nothing made obvious at all to the meaning he is deducing).

To me, in Gurbani I see a wonderous message that we are not merely this physical body.  That we exist on a much higher level... and in fact the Creator and Us are one in the same - just that we are an inward reflection thereof, only a small part while the Creator is the whole.  To me, I see a wonderous message that we can surpass this lowly physical state and realize who we truly are.  I don't see inward realization of [God] as somehow cheating (as was suggested by Harry Ji). Attaining that state is no easy feat. But the good message is we ALL have the potential to!  Guru Nanak Dev Ji told us this... when he stated he is just a man... he was saying we can ALL attain this state of realization.  

I have also acknowledged that maybe BOTH messages can be written in the same words... but those who have interpreted it as physical meaning, have not ackniowledged that there is any meaning in there that pertains to anything more than simply telling you how to have a swell physical life. 

To me what I see that some of you have reduced that message to, is simply a manual on how to get along with your neighbours, live out this puny physical life in 'harmony' with the earth and nature... and die and cease to exist with no message of hope that there is anything more. The Creator has been reduced to just a metaphor for the physical universe and science, and any message of existence beyond the physical has been reduced to changing states of mind only.  


I simply to refuse to believe that!  And if that is the 'true' meaning of Sikhi... I mean japji and gyani ji have both stated their interpretations as fact and harry ji pretty much stated that there is no need for anything more... if this is all true, then I should not take Amrit. It wouldn't be right for me take Amrit - because I would aldready break the very first chapter and first paragraph where it states definition of a Sikh and v. states that they do not owe allegiance to any other religion. Since I DO believe in more than the physical (and more than belive, I know with my full being that there is) and I see the message clearly written in Gurbani, then I must not be Sikh in my beliefs and hence I would not fit the definition as laid out in the SRM. That is why I have decided to not take Amrit.

My beliefs and what I know deep inside have not changed one iota... it's just that I always thought that my beliefs and knowledge aligned with Sikhi and if what you write is true, then they do not... and hence I am not a Sikh.  I am something else...

Now what to do about the fact that I started tying dastaar... etc.  And how to explain to to my sangat here who all believe the same in line with me... maybe we should all call ourselves something else then as we are not the 'discerning Sikhs' that some of you have termed are the gems..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 1, 2014)

You can take a horse to the poolside..thats all...and its a FACT...but it cant be forced to drink..and Thats a Fact too...and I can write anything.( My opinion)...:green-pargi:.and someone/anyone cna coem along and call it "fact" (even when I havent )..thats a fact too...:green-pargi:fcats are facts..folks..make the Horsie DRINK !!! even if it dies from it..


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2014)

Ambarsari Ji... I put my answeres to your questions in red... as I understand it, and Gurbani to me supports it completely.


Originally Posted by *kggr001* 

 

_Sikhi does believe in reincarnation.

What will happen to me when I die? Does my soul immediately lock stock and barrel enter another life form body?

IRRELEVANT - There is only ONE - the Creator.  We are merely different costumes, different characters played by the ONE. There is only ONE all pervading Universal Consciousness, out of which everything in known physical existence emenates. (this agrees with quantum physics) So even though that ONE Consciousness continues on as other characters, and some fragments of memory from past characters played may still remain and resurface, there is in effect only ONE actor and there was only ever ONE actor. 'Ambarsaria' or 'Akasha' is EGO - they are just characters being played. The YOU that is experiencing and is conscious is NOT Ambarsaria. Remember who you are.
Sikhi believes in Ek Onkaar._

_Sikhi does warn us everytime to find the lord before it's to late.

It does warn us against complacency and wastage of time for sure. For me find the lord/creator is knowing as much as we possibly can as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji also tells that we are not capable of knowing all. What is your level or target to declare that you found the lord because I think I already have?

Finding is the realization that this world is as a dream and you are not merely your physical shell. Realize that 'HE IS ME' - YOU and the ONE Universal Consciousness are ONE in the same.  Therefore, finding is the realization of this fact and is why EGO needs to be shed. We need to stop thinking as 'Ambarsaria' or 'Akasha' and find that bit of us inside that is the divine light... stop thinking as the character and wake up as the actor. Since this takes inward reflection and realization that ALL IS ONE, it takes time. It also takes the level of consciousness as a human to contemplate.  Therefore we are told that this life is precious and is our chance to realize this. And the time we have to do so is limited, or this chance as this character has been wasted.

Sikhi believes this world is a dream. (Doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything worldy related)._


_Sikhi tells use you can Merge with the lord on this planet and here after. (For me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is proof for this.)

We are already part of creator and creation the only part Sikhi for me teaches us is to understand this and in practical terms. For me merging is understanding what is your definition of merging?


IRRELLEVANT - there is only ONE.  There is no merging... only the realization that we have always been merged.  Separation is an illusion. There is only ONE Universal Consciousness. Therefore, merging simply means regaining awareness of that fact... awakening to the fact that 'HE IS ME'. 
 
_


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2014)

Akasha ji thanks for your post.





Akasha said:


> Rather I said that a non-spiritual interpretation of Sikhi is athiestic in belief._
> I don't think it is possible to be non-spiritual if you read and keep interest in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is spirituality in itself. Many don't think alike and that is normal._
> 
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2014)

> harry ji pretty much stated that there is no need for anything more...



since when did I transform from class clown/heretic/fat bald idiot/comic relief to some sort of authority figure?

Akashaji, I have my opinions, you have yours, we debate them, I may not agree with you, you may not agree with me, I concede I can be sarcastic and possibly even seem to be aggressive, its all comic relief, its just gallows humour, I am sorry if you found it offensive, the thought that it may influence your amrit is terrible, 

I do not pray, I have not been to a Gurdwara in years, all I know is what I feel, just like you, I am no expert, What I feel is for madmen only. 

just to clarify


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 1, 2014)

Ambarsaria said:


> When I read Gurbani I fail to see how someone would go to such lengths to confuse people into believing outward metaphors that speak of [spirituality] only to have hidden some meaning that is so far removed from the words they have written that only a very few even come up with that meaning... (case in point, I still fail to see how japji gets some of the ideas he does out of the shabads he posted... as there is nothing made obvious at all to the meaning he is deducing)


 Akashji Jee
would be obliged if you can cite where my interpretation sounds out of context. I will try to re-write and explain.

I very eagerly am looking for S.Tejwant Singh jee. Hope you are not upset. please come back.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2014)

harry haller said:


> since when did I transform from class clown/heretic/fat bald idiot/comic relief to some sort of authority figure?
> 
> Akashaji, I have my opinions, you have yours, we debate them, I may not agree with you, you may not agree with me, I concede I can be sarcastic and possibly even seem to be aggressive, its all comic relief, its just gallows humour, I am sorry if you found it offensive, the thought that it may influence your amrit is terrible,
> 
> ...


Harry brother, sorry to be off-topic but I could not resist the following that just occurred to me as phraseology,

*



Arrows released out of a bow don't come back, next time try a boomerang.  

Click to expand...

*loleacesign:​
Sat Sri Akal.


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## kggr001 (Aug 1, 2014)

Ambarsaria said:


> What will happen to me when I die? Does my soul immediately lock stock and barrel enter another life form body?



I've no answer to the question, I personally don't really care how the process works, Sikhi doesn't believe that this is it and when we die we are dust and thats all.



Ambarsaria said:


> It does warn us against complacency and wastage of time for sure. For me find the lord/creator is knowing as much as we possibly can as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji also tells that we are not capable of knowing all. What is your level or target to declare that you found the lord because I think I already have?



I can only say whatever I found the lord or not, if I would compare myself with Guru's and Bhagats states described through whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It's a state where you see the lord in each and everything. A state where you are one with the lord, A state where one can't tell difference between that person and lord. I'm no where close to attaining that state. A state where you see/make no difference in iron and gold.



Ambarsaria said:


> We are already part of creator and creation the only part Sikhi for me teaches us is to understand this and in practical terms. For me merging is understanding what is your definition of merging?



For me the definition of merging is being one with the lord, I know that we are already part of the creation which means we are already in a way  merged with the lord. However we should immerse our mind in lord, like the fish in the water. The lord is already in us, the question we need to ask ourselfs is that if our mind also immersed in god like how god is merged in us.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2014)

kggr001 ji we are too close for comfort on many understandings :sippingcoffeemunda:





kggr001 said:


> I've no answer to the question, I personally don't really care how the process works, Sikhi doesn't believe that this is it and when we die we are dust and thats all.


Regarding the above comment nothing reminds me of us before birth or after death like when I consider the following question,

*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is Guru Nanak Dev ji dead or alive today
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*


> My answer is he is more alive than dead. If we gather all parts of him in all Sikhs or others that he impacted and put these together, it would be Guru Nanak magnificently multiplied in so many souls.
> 
> For me this is re-incarnation as you spiritually (your spirits, your soul or parts of ) forever live in many as many live in you. By the way it is not limited to human to human as if you looked in the eyes of a bird, a dog or a cat, you will soon see your soul connecting to other forms.



 So for Sikhs the challenge out of all the teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to try to emulate the principles therein, recognize the lives of those who wrote and be like them or take leaves out of their lives so that after we leave the physical body our soul continues to grow in dimension through others.


Sat Sri Akal and good interacting with you.​


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## kggr001 (Aug 1, 2014)

Wonderfull post Ambarsaria ji,

Thats one way of seeing reincarnation, what I meant in the previous post was the other reincarnation the one that we die and get born again till one ends the cycle. 

I do believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about it and accepts it.

The reincarnation you are talking about is in my eyes just more like "Leaving Wisdom/knowledge" behind, The same thing also applies to person who invented Algebra he is also pretty much alive and same goes for Albert Einstein/Newton/etc.. You can call it reincarnation since in a way it is.


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## Sherdil (Aug 1, 2014)

For some reason, under the "Active Discussions" tab, a thread featuring our late Narayanjot Kaur popped up. It said that she had made a post yesterday. Perplexed, I clicked it and was shown that the last post was made several years ago. I ventured onto her blog and found this poem. Talk about having a spiritual experience! Lol. It's relevant to this heated discussion. 



> Through endless ages, the mind has never changed
> It has not lived or died, come or gone, gained or lost.
> It isn’t pure or tainted, good or bad, past or future.
> true or false, male or female. It isn’t reserved for
> ...


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## Admin (Aug 1, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> For some reason, under the "Active Discussions" tab, a thread featuring our late Narayanjot Kaur popped up. It said that she had made a post yesterday. Perplexed, I clicked it and was shown that the last post was made several years ago. I ventured onto her blog and found this poem. Talk about having a spiritual experience! Lol. It's relevant to this heated discussion.


It was an old discussion on Shaheed Udham Singh, bumped, to mark the day his hanging on July 31, 1940.


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## mandemeet (Aug 2, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Let me sum it up with quote from gurbani once for all. Gurbani jivan mukta is  ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ ਮਰਹੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ over here it is referring to 'no rebirth of evil deeds, destructive thoughts' whereas as I can see in advaita philosophy it is rebirth of physical body. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.1103. As gurbani tells, ' ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਬ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਕਤ ਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ p.302 once I am in bliss now my mind does not think of superfluous deeds.



Japjisahib004ji, 

Have you read on 503 this verse?

ਮਨਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਕਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ 
Man bīcẖār ek liv lāgī punrap janam na kālā. ||4||

Now with ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ  there is another word ਨ ਕਾਲਾ ( no death) that cannot be attached to destructive thought, can it be? How long you can keep distorting a fact well expressed in the Gurbani and claim to fix it once for all?

if ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ is rebirth of destructive thoughts, what we will do with ਗਰਭ /garbh/mother’s womb?  Add to it, ਗਰਭ has come with ਫਿਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁੜਿ, which means again. Also the words like ਜੋਨਿ ਦੁਖ/ Why Garbhjoon is called ਦੁਖ pain? Don’t you think it is celebrated by the  entire world? 

Then ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਲੇਟਿਆ/ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਗਰਭੈ ਪਰਨਾ cannot be distorted. Here are a few examples especially the last verse conclusive on rebirth

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਰਭ ਹਿਰਿ ਖਰਿਆ ॥ 
Ka▫ī janam garabẖ hir kẖari▫ā.(176)

ਢੇਰੀ ਜਾਮੈ ਜਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
Dẖerī jāmai jam marai garabẖ jon ḏukẖ pā▫e.(256)

ਸੋ ਨਰੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥੪॥ 
So nar garabẖ jon nahī āvai. ||4|| (414)

ਪਾਇਆ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਥਾਨੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਲੇਟਿਆ ॥ 
Pā▫i▫ā nihcẖal thān fir garabẖ na leti▫ā.(520)

ਬਿਗਸੈ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਗਰਭੈ ਪਰਨਾ ॥੧॥
Bigsai man hovai pargāsā bahur na garbẖai parnā. ||1||(531)

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਗਰਭ ਮਝਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
Saṯgur banḏẖan ṯoṛ nirāre bahuṛ na garabẖ majẖārī jī▫o.(598)

ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣੁ ਸਿਰ ਊਪਰਿ ਊਭਉ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ 
Jamaṇ maraṇ sir ūpar ūbẖa▫o garabẖ jon ḏukẖ pā▫e. ||2||(604)

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥ 
Nānak saran gahī sukẖ sāgar janam maran fir garabẖ na ḏẖukẖ. ||2||10||29||(717)

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਰਚਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਲਾਹਿਓ ਤਹ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਹ ਆਵੈ ॥੪॥੧॥
 Kaho Nānak morcẖā gur lāhi▫o ṯah garabẖ jon kah āvai. ||4||1||(978)

ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੈ ਦੇਖੈ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਜੋਨੀ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੪॥ 
Akath kathai ḏekẖai aprampar fun garabẖ na jonī jā▫i▫ā. ||4||(1040)

I can keep posting  the Gurbani verses about it, because “rebirth is overwhelmingly referred in the Gurbani. It is silly to come up with one’s own thoughts by ignoring so clear-cut expressions in the name of metaphors. What it has to do with “advaita philosophy” anyway gentleman?  It is that simple, read it, see the context and the meaning of the words in that context. Then we don’t need to attach the clear words to destructive thoughts etc, because if we do, we will find the same idea expressed in other way.The Truth is never new or old. It was there before Guru Nanak and it is still today, but Guru Nanak has shared “Truth” with the common people contrary to those who couldn't share so openly with the common masses; consequently, some started making trade out of it by writing their own thoughts in a selective language, because they missed the fact that the Truth cannot be hidden. Today, they may claim that they found the truth first ( so called Vedanta philosophy), but how will they get rid of that stuff that belittle the human beings expressed in detail in their scriptures? Guru Granth Sahib stands against that filth. How can the Truth and Simiritis-filth can be promoted together? The Gurbani is written for all, for a layman and the intellectuals by honoring them to be part of that Truth (no one is high and no one is low) and to become able to become one with them. It was a revolution of freedom from bonds of rituals and rites. A bond-mind cannot realize “Truth”. In the Gurbani, repeatedly the seeker is advised to follow only that one (the Guru), who has realized the Truth/ Satt/Ekankaar/ the Creator and to avoid embracing cleverish and haughty knowledge as in the case of Brahmins. Advaita guys who claim to introduce truth first are ignorant. The Gurbani clearly says that search such a Guru who has realized the truth (30) not the talker, who talks about “ I Am that” but never let the seekers to go free from rituals and rites.

Akasha Bhainji! 

You were doing fine. What you are saying is said in Sri Guru Granth Sahib repeatedly. Unfortunately some Sikhs are stuck with Miri only and do not realize that without Piri, Miri is useless; nonetheless, a few gentlemen on this site grasped exactly the way you have. Don’t you see the entire world is into physical aspect? The Gurbani perfectly leads to Spirituality. You walked on a path that will lead you to your goal if you remain determined; some are trying, some are struggling and a few are enjoying that bliss. Table talk is based on one’s thoughts influenced by others but the Gurbani is based on pure, personal, and original experience. Guru Nanak concludes on 1412


ਸਭਨੀ ਘਟੀ ਸਹੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਘਟੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
Sabẖnī gẖatī saho vasai sah bin gẖat na ko▫e.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੯॥
 Nānak ṯe sohāgaṇī jinĥā gurmukẖ pargat ho▫e. ||19||

The Master abides in all bodies; there is none without the Master. Oh Nanak!  Only those are fortunate brides within whom the Master becomes manifest through the Guru.

Every Sikh is supposed to realize the Guru’s given fact. Physical aspect is being lived by all regardless their religions; it is the Sikhi only that stresses more on Peeri than on Meeri so that the seeker can learn to be one with the Truth. Please keep your journey without letting anyone influence you but the Gurbani.

My special thanks to Chaz Singh, Lucky Singh, kggr001, Harmanpreet Singh and Akashaji for letting the SPNERs know that truth in the Gurbani is not hidden in metaphors only. My regards to all those who may be in disagreement with me on this site; I will not question your stand. If you feel what you are because of the Gurbani, I respect that. If you ever think, you may be influenced by others more than the Gurbani, please try to see the Gurbani in that prospect. Just sharing that I also respect the views of those who totally don’t believe in the Creator as I do very passionately.
Sincerely
mandemmet


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## Luckysingh (Aug 2, 2014)

aristotle said:


> Lucky Ji,
> You believe that simply because a term appears in the Gurbani, it means Guru Sahib endorsed it. Gurbani is beautiful poetry, if you translate poetry into black and blue, it is not going to lead you to the spirit of that poetry. I hope you understand that.


 
Guru Sahib endorses GURMAT only. If there was some gurmat in some mythological tale, then this message of gurmat is endorsed.
But you are arguing, that if we pay attention to understand some myth, tale, persons.. then we are immediately wearing vedic specs.!!!!!
The bhagats bani is used in same way where message of gurmat is present... What is your Farid argument about ?



> ........ By your theory, Malikil-Maut should also exist, robbing people of their lives as decreed by Allah.......................
> ...............drive hometheir own message. The same is the case with the then widely used terms like _*Mukti, Maya, Brahm* _etc. The most important thing is the big picture, not the linguists or mythology


 
By your theory, if any reference is made in some context, then you immediately class it is as NOT SIKHI. 
Such that ANYTHING mentioned in other scriptures that may also be in gurbani.. like reincarnation, mukti, maya, brahma and brahm clarification, soul, after-life, realms, lok, yugas..etc... is immediately rejected, simply because it is in other text.

Doesn't this make you atheist ?



> By looking through 'Vedic specs' *I mean distorting the meaning of Shabads such as these to suit one's own needs.*
> I am not looking to segregate anyone, perhaps you just assumed that, and you should not.


 
Show me how the distortion happens by understanding history and relevance ?
 You seem to be the one distorting it as proof of non-sikhi...

It's to suit your own ''be all and end all'' version of sikhi created by missionary mindset.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 2, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Let me sum it up with quote from gurbani once for all. Gurbani jivan mukta is ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ ਮਰਹੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ over here it is referring to 'no rebirth of evil deeds, destructive thoughts' whereas as I can see in advaita philosophy it is rebirth of physical body. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.1103. As gurbani tells, ' ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਬ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਕਤ ਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ p.302 once I am in bliss now my mind does not think of superfluous deeds.


 
A polite response to your above post would be ..._Absolute Nonsense!_


You have absolutely disregarded the fact that Kabirji in above reference is talking about ''to die in the shabad'' This dying is repeated and repeated....it's a death where you are NOT reborn...
Obviously, you have no idea of how one can achieve this.......


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## Harry Haller (Aug 2, 2014)

I have now realised the difference between us all, some of us need a carrot!


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 2, 2014)

mandemeet said:


> Japjisahib004ji,
> 
> Have you read on 503 this verse?
> 
> ...


Sardar Sahib

My humble request kindly read the rahao which is the central idea of the sabd, before you criticize or waste other's time in questioning.

What is gharab? Gurbani tells us, 'ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਾ ਤਿਹ ਤਜਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥  and what is 'maya'? 'ਏਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ what distance us (manmat)from God is maya and this is gharab juene.

When guru sahib says, 'ਏਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਦੀਨੋ ਤਾ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਨ ਮੁਆ ॥  which rebirth gurbani is telling,- mandai kama wala? Guru sahib is not telling that since you have given me birth, now I will do something(through rituals or dying in sabd) that you will not be able to make blunder again to give me rebirth. Why anything wrong with this birth? It is all about manh.

Permit me to put it up from another angle, despite all our efforts, if, 'ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਊਭਿ ਚੜਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ when manh is 24 hour hyper and not getting stable, this sorrow and disturbed state of mind is called aavan javan, this state of mind is called jamna marna but, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥ guru nanak has tied/imbued his manh with a home where there is no death/birth and no old age, means when there is no rebirth naturally he will not die again. As gurbani says, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ so long as I eye on others wealth, others fight, beauty and slandering, cycle of this disturbed state of mind (pal pal janma marna will never end). Once I understand this laws of nature and implement, I will never get disturbed.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 2, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I have now realised the difference between us all, some of us need a carrot!



The thing is... Some of us HAVE been given the carrot! And the more we look to the spiritual, the closer the carrot gets!


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## kggr001 (Aug 2, 2014)

First of all I want to thank japjisahib04 ji for sharing his wonderfull understanding of reincarnation. The way you interpret reincarnation is wonderfull. I tried to compare some verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about reincarnation with your understanding. for me it was more usefull to use reincarnation to the way you described then using it as physical death and physical birth.

I believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does talk about two kind of reincarnations, one about reincarnation of the mind, other is about physical birth, death.

The first one in my opinion should help one more in the journey to find lord, the second one is there more as reminder that we shouldn't waste time since it's limited.

The shabad below can be interpretted in two ways, for me it comes more over as they are talking about reincarnation in the way that you get born again.



> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1238
> 
> ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ महला १ ॥
> Mėhlā 1.
> ...


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 2, 2014)

kggr01 ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> The first one in my opinion should help one more in *the journey to find lord,* the second one is there more as reminder that we shouldn't waste time since it's limited.



Does the lord you 'worship' MIA that you have to find him/her /it? I am a bit puzzled by that.

Is your lord a deity of some sort because only the deities play hide n seek?

Would you be kind enough to elaborate that?

According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent and hence can never be missing.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 2, 2014)

Mandemeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

One request to all.

Please do not copy and paste one liners which can be misleading without the whole shabad and hence, one liners become weapons to prove one's point rather than interacting for learning through Sadh Sangat which is our main goal here.

So, I would request you to start a new thread under the following thread with your personal understanding, not just the literal translation which is on the net, so we can all share our own and learn from each other.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/

Please start one Shabad at a time. You may start the first one on page 503 whose one verse from the middle you used in your discussion with JapJi. Also, please share us what  your understanding of the Rahao verse is in the Shabad and also in general.

You write:



> Have you read on 503 this verse?
> 
> ਮਨਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਕਾਲਾ ॥੪॥
> Man bīcẖār ek liv lāgī punrap janam na kālā. ||4||
> ...



No one is distorting Gurbani here. We all disagree with our interpretation and of the other members' all the times. Disagreements are part of the learning process, which I am sure you must be aware of. Sikhi is all about learning, unlearning and relearning with every breath we take. This is the unique beauty of Sikhi thanks to our visionary Gurus who did not give us the interpretation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on a platter.

Let's be civil to each other so we can create the learning process among the cyber sangat.

I am looking forward to learning from your understanding of the Shabad on page 503 of which you just posted a verse of, and then we can carry on with the others.


Thanks & regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 2, 2014)

Knowing there was at times heated discussion in this thread. It should occur to us how we should conduct. One of the best reflections of Guru Nanak Dev ji's mindset in dealing with debate is given brilliantly in Sidh Gosht. I extract a bit below where Italics blue is my understanding,http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=੧


> [URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%80"]ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਸਿਧ [/URL]ਗੋਸਟਿ
> Rāmkalī mėhlā 1 siḏẖ gosat
> _Raag Ramkali, Guru Nanak Dev ji Sidh Gosht_
> 
> ...


It puts me to shame many times in reflection. Does it do so to anyone else!

Thanks,

Sat Sri Akal.


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## kggr001 (Aug 2, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> kggr01 ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



I do believe the lord resides already in me. However I fail to reconize him. I fail to see god in each and everything. I fail to see what guru's and bhagats saw.

So yes the lord is missing for me even though he is already there. I fail to reconize him.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 2, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> kggr01 ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




THIS!!!!  We agree on... 

The reason Waheguru Ji is always present is because in reality all there is is the ONE 

By 'finding' it simply means to remember that fact... Not a deity as a bearded guy sitting on a cloud but ONE universal CONSCIOUSNESS without form but through which ALL forms manifest.  

...when one becomes Gurmukh and realizes HE IS ME what more is there to know? (Paraphrased because I'm on my iPhone) and ones intuitive consciousness merges with the Intuitive consciousness... Merging simply means remembering that there is only ONE and will ever only be ONE even though we have locked ourselves into this physical form and have forgotten that fact.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 2, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I do believe the lord resides already in me. However I fail to reconize him. I fail to see god in each and everything. I fail to see what guru's and bhagats saw.
> 
> So yes the lord is missing for me even though he is already there. I fail to reconize him.


Recognition of what you have stated that you have not fully recognized is Mukti/rapture/union/merging for me.

Once one recognizes one loses fear of dying, loses animosity, loses jealousy, and so on and gains tranquility and peace that you cannot buy for a billion dollars or euros or 60 billion rupees lol

For Sikhs and other who reach out to SGGS, the Guru ji give free/no-charge/gratis practical coaching and guidance that so many could not buy with money.

Let the rich of the world suffer and the tranquil man in torn canopy cover living by the Ganges enjoy.

kggr001 ji in the following Shabad Guru Amardas Ji are talking to your quest,


> Mėhlā 3.
> 
> Third Mehl:
> 
> ...


Realizing all one within within and seeing all one without is a key message and then birth/death and all reincarnation, merging, mukti, joon-free (incarnations or transformations) stops being of need or applicability.

Sat Sri Akal. eacesign:

*PS: *Whereas I have simply copied the above from srigranth.org, I will try to deliberate and provide my own understanding later on if possible.


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## mandemeet (Aug 2, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Mandemeet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Tejwant Singh ji

Sat Sree Akaal ji!

I usually don’t respond to any biased reaction, but just for the record, here are my views in context of your reaction to my post. 

I responded to Japjisahib004’s one-liner Gurbani quotes. Haven’t  you noticed before Japjisahib004  has been using one-liner quotes on this thread for a while? Didn’t you feel that his one liner quotes could mislead the cyber sangat? When he posts one-liner, it is ok, but when someone, who is in disagreement with your views, posts one-liners, then the all posters must be advised and counseled to post the entire shabd. I have given pages with my one liners so that if anyone wants, one can look at that and explore further but  Japjisahib004 even didn’t give pages like in post number 24 or 96 and you appreciated him, didn’t you? Where is fairness? Such uncalled-for intervention is enough for me.

Now I wonder how I have lost civility by questioning his interpretation!

Thanks.
Regards
mandemeet


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## mandemeet (Aug 2, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Sardar Sahib
> 
> My humble request kindly read the rahao which is the central idea of the sabd, before you criticize or waste other's time in questioning.
> 
> ...


 



Japjisahib ji,

My responses to your quotes are in color

“My humble request kindly read the rahao which is the central idea of the shabd, before you criticize or waste other's time in questioning….
What is gharab? Gurbani tells us, 'ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਾ ਤਿਹ ਤਜਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥ and what is 'maya'? 'ਏਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ what distance us (manmat) from God is maya and this is gharab juene.” quote

Please don’t define ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ /garbh jon as Maya. You are simply using your assumption again. Here I will give you just one example

ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਕਰਤਾ ॥ ਤਉ ਜਠਰ ਅਗਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤਾ ॥੨॥ Garabẖ jon mėh uraḏẖ ṯap karṯā. Ŧa▫o jaṯẖar agan mėh rahṯā. ||2|| (337) 

Clearly “ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ /garbh jon” is not taken as Maya in these verses; see the entire shabd, you will understand what I am talking about. If we accept what you say, we will not be able to make sense of many verses of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as in the case of above quote.

Let me give you another example how you give a new meaning to the Gurbani, which is questionable:

Here is your quote:11
“It all depends how we understand and interpret gurbani. Like, 'ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥ as per my understanding to 8.4 millions habits, guru sahib is saying like zillion in common English and (rizak diya) provide them for their elevation the godly virtrues, thus all animal instincts within me gets transformed and not as is assumed material bhojan for sustenance.”

According to you as state above, again the meaning is changed though this estimation ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ is always used for the lives not for Maya as you claim.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jī▫a upā▫e. Jis no naḏar kare ṯis gurū milā▫e.

ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਕਾਟਿ ਸਦਾ ਜਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਦਰਿ ਸਚੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥ 
Kilbikẖ kāt saḏā jan nirmal ḏar sacẖai nām suhāvaṇi▫ā. ||6|

Let us for a moment, we accept 84 lakhs are habits, as you claim, what we will do with the words ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਏ (the lives are created)? 

Then according to you, the habits means lives and habits are given food. Clearly the layman has to go to you to understand it. You assume and decide “once for all”, but repeatedly it is all the times used for the lives as this estimated number generally talked in the old times in India, nothing more than that. Even if you go through the entire shabd, the meaning remains the same. We just cannot say that “garbh jon” means Maya.

Your quote
When guru sahib says, 'ਏਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਦੀਨੋ ਤਾ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਨ ਮੁਆ ॥ which rebirth gurbani is telling,- mandai kama wala? Guru sahib is not telling that since you have given me birth, now I will do something (through rituals or dying in sabd) that you will not be able to make blunder again to give me rebirth. Why anything wrong with this birth? It is all about manh.

I couldn’t make anything out of it. What it has to do with what we are discussing?

Your quote: 
Permit me to put it up from another angle, despite all our efforts, if, 'ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅਡ਼ਾ ਊਭਿ ਚਡ਼ਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ when manh is 24 hour hyper and not getting stable, this sorrow and disturbed state of mind is called aavan javan, this state of mind is called jamna marna but, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥

I have done my best to explain you not to generalize “janam marn” usage. This is the way you tear apart often the message in the Gurbani. The verse at the end of your quote is on 44. In that shabd, procuring His Naam is promoted that is deemed as more important than dominions and in that shabd, there is one other verse ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਰਾਪਤੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਥਿ ॥੧॥ The word ਮਹਲੁ is not a state of mind; it is that word that is linked to the last verse ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥੪॥੬॥੭੬॥ Here also don’t forget the word ਜਰਾ which means old age. Through these all efforts, the Guru conveys a message of “sehj awastha: by procuring Naam. Wherever you see “janm and maran” you cannot relate it to ups and down of life in every context. In other words, no generalization of this usage. My respond to your post was because of your misinterpretation of “Puner janam” and I brought to your notice how “Punerjanam” is expressed through Garbh jon”( which you have named “Maya” now) 

Your quote:

As gurbani says, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ so long as I eye on others wealth, others fight, beauty and slandering, cycle of this disturbed state of mind (pal pal janma marna will never end). Once I understand this laws of nature and implement, I will never get disturbed.

Now you are defining ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ that can also be refuted. I request you to stay on one usage. You bring one line from here and there and keep jumping like a ball. Remember in my post I remain focused only at “garbhjoon” to refute your point. What you are trying to do is to give new meaning by bringing new words ignoring the contexts about which I just discussed above. How you ignore the context, I have already pointed out your brand new meaning of “eighty-four lakh joon” in your quote number 11

Japjisahib004 ji, .Going into circles will not help anyone. You should not always take “janam maran” only for a plight of one’s mind. The words change in contexts. I believe intellectual like you are aware of this. I have done my best to explain you why generalization is dangerous especially in context of the Gurbani. One last example I can give is about a word to show you how it conveys different meaning in different contexts. Examples
1 issue = I have received the july issue of science discoveries.
2. Issue = What is the issue that stops you going to their meeting?
3. Issue = Do you have any issue (child)? 

Thanks 
Regards
mandemeet


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 2, 2014)

In anand sahib guru sahib cautions us, 'ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥ once attachment of grudge, biased is eradicated, their speach becomes so sweet that they never lose civility.

Let us learn from each other


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 2, 2014)

mandemeet said:


> Tejwant Singh ji
> 
> Sat Sree Akaal ji!
> 
> ...



Mandemeet ji

Guru Fateh.

Please read  the very first line in my post which I think you missed it some how. I wrote *ALL* and I am sure you understand what that means. What do you mean by biased reaction? Please elaborate. I am bit puzzled by your claim.

Civility is how one interacts. One has every right to disagree but not being disagreeable because all of us are here to learn from each other.

I will wait for the whole shabad of your one liner with your own understanding  in the Gurmat Vichar section and then we will go from there. Please read my previous post so we can interact.

Let's stick to the subject of this very thread please. Akasha ji has put great effort in it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Luckysingh (Aug 3, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> In anand sahib guru sahib cautions us,
> 
> 'ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
> ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
> ...


 
The bold is your interpretation.(Non-Spiritual... as per thread title)

The below is mine, underneath srigranth's (Spiritual and to my inner/sukham understanding)

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
Kar kirpā kilvikẖ kate gi▫ān anjan sāri▫ā. 
_Granting His Grace, He cuts away our sins;_
_He blesses us with the healing ointment of spiritual wisdom._ 

With his grace, our wrongdoings/wrong ways are ''_saria'_'-arranged or put in order... The above mention of_ healing ointment _(not literal)implies the unformity in his arrangement..such that on a direct cut from a thorn on the skin, an ointment is applied uniformly to the same site. ..ie at the point of wrongful/painful action.
Therefore, for all our wrong attempts or ways as per quantity/size, he blesses the same amount of equalizing/eradicating spiritual gyan.
The size of a blemish that you may put on yourself, will be wiped and removed with the equal amount of gyan required to make it dissapear.

ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
Anḏrahu jin kā moh ṯutā ṯin kā sabaḏ sacẖai savāri▫ā.
Those who eradicate attachment from within themselves, are adorned with the Shabad, the Word of the True Lord. 

*Where does this gyan come from ??*
It is via the shabad that comes from waheguru himself.
This _shabad is not uttered with our voices_ in sweetness as you have mentioned above. This shabad is only *HEARD *within in your consciousness to those that seek antarghat. 
It is the AKATH KATHA-unspoken word.
You could call it Waheguru's voice, but me and you cannot be uttering or be the point of origin of this shabad/voice of Waheguru.

*How is this attachment eradicated within ?*
This is only by love, effort and subduing your mind, thoughts, intentions...etc.. again _totally inner/sukham/spiritual approaches_.
The way you mentioned above about speaking sweetly with tongue is more of an attachment itself to your own Ego. 
Remember that joy/sorrow, sukh/dukh..etc.. is ONLY felt by your EGO.
So speaking in sweet voices is not going to take you away from ego.. it is just orderly conduct. There is no use speaking sweetly when your inner Mind may be cursing..!


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 3, 2014)

Lucky Singh Jee

Thanks for presenting interpretation in spiritual and to inner/sukham understanding.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 3, 2014)

S. Mandemeet Jee

I don't know how old are you. My suggestion first learn how to interact and get clarification. No one is your servant.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 3, 2014)

My Guru is so sweet,  'ਮਿਠ ਬੋਲੜਾ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ ਹਉ ਸੰਮਲਿ ਥਕੀ ਜੀ ਓਹੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਕਉਰਾ ॥ that I have grown weary of testing Him, but still, am not able to find single time harsh words. And pity we are talking of punishment and consigning to 8.4 juenes, when He does not even consider my short comings, 'ਅਉਗਣੁ ਕੋ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥. 

I have noticed that most of the shaloks that allude to reincarnation in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji usually end in something like this (paraphrasing): "In order to end your sufferings 'guna naal sannjh karo'. Once we imbibe divine virtues, we will no longer fluctuate between different personalities, you will no longer be a greedy snake one day and a lustful elephant the next, you will have effectively broken the cycle, no more reincarnations for you in this life, and as a result, be living a Gurmukh lifestyle. 

There is another pankti popularly which linked with previous life, 'ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਤਬ ਇਹ ਮਾਨਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1159. Now first question is, if I was a dog, cat or any other bird in previous life, in that juene could I perform guru dee seva. Have we have seen a dog and or cat performing kirtan in gurdwara. Then who is 'manas dyhi' and what is seva and or bhagti that kabir is referring in this pankti.  

Firstly let us not get confused that we are human being. Why? because until we listened the inner message (saabat vasat)and practice, we remained an animal, kartook pashu kee manas jaat or pasu manas cham platai Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 1284. 

Thus as per gurbani, satguru kai janmai gavan mitaiya by emulating the divine virtues, we obtained the manas dehi which have been referred at several places as 'durlabh manukh deh'also, thus this seva is not linked with previous life but with present life by inculcating the divine virtues and bhagati is introspection - paving way for manh to enter into nijhghar and not parroting,fasting, pilgrimage or aarti.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 3, 2014)

The Gurus and the Bahgats who are in the SGGS  were BORN HUMAN...they lived HUMAN LIVES..they wrote GURBANI using HUMAN language paper ink etc etc.  There is NO ANIMAL< bacteria, virus, tree vanaspathee life etc etc INVOLVED.  GURBANI is for HUMAN EYES HUMAN EARS..by Humans for Humans OF Humans...no dogs cows donkeys, birds snakes jackals elephants buffaloes involved.

GURU dee SEVA...DARSHAN..HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA, hukm mannanh, etc etc are HUMAN things..only HUMANS can do.  BHAGTEE is human task..accomplished only by humans..Bhagtee Marg is Human, Naam simran is Human..SGGS is FOR HUMANS...to LIVE by and CHANGE our HUMAN LIVES...

Unless someone can show me a Dog doing bhagtee, naam simran, guru dee seva etc so as to be reincarnated as a HUMAN ( and NO gaurantee then that that DOG human will do what the SGGS says a Human should do...). YES..certian FAKE BHARAM-AGYANIS will tell tall tales...example..A rarewallah Saadh sayingt eh Queen Victoria was a ***** in his Waddeh babajis DERA..she ate one piece of JOOTHEE roti the baba ji threw at her..and she was Blessed with the BRITISH EMPIRE !!! or a certain butcher was chaisng his ruan away cow..and someone pointed it out..then he was REBORN with a MISSING HAND...blah blah blah..all pure BS and entertainment....Picchhleh janam vich heeereh motee daan karo..es janam vich BRAHMIN janamo..But Bahgat Kabir jia sks the Brahmin..why you sued the same old way to come to this world as myself..or the Lowest castes also use (Womans womb)..ANY HIGHLY SPIRITUAL HUMAN ever came to this world by ANY OTHER WAY ???..OUR GURUS showed us the way..we still hanker after the "spiritually evolved" ones offering us the British Empire...just eat their babajis JOOTH !!! and you will be surprised how many Sikhs HANKER after this JOOTH of so called spiritually higher beings..BS..The RS Beas guy spits into the parshaad..making it spiritually PURE !!! many other highly spiritual fellows do that too...its a blessing to eat that ????

ALL the CHANGES, the reincarnations, the REBIRTHS happen RIGHT HERE and NOW..in HUMAN FORM...the LIGHT DAWNS NOW..Heereh jaisah janam hai...kaudee de bhao gavaii...raat gavaii soi keh..din gvaiahyah khai...what a waste of the 100 YEARS we get...(most lucky ones only..others die early).


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 3, 2014)

Mandemeet ji

Guru Fateh.

As you must have noticed that we are starting the project to interpret Anand in a collective manner here at SPN.

I would like you to be our torchbearer in this very important project. Therefore, I request you to give it a start by translating the First Pauri of Anand with your own understanding and we will all pitch in with ours. Hence in a collective way, we can  make it easier for many people to understand Gurbani in this way rather than the current ones which are sprinkled with 'Biblical Pollen' which was not done in a deliberate fashion but happened organically as the earlier translators were all Christian missionaries.

When you read through the thread, you will notice that Aman ji has created a special section for this great project.

When do you think you will be able to post the first Pauri of Anand with your understanding? 

I am certain that a well articulated and a knowledgeable person of Gurbani like you would love to be the major part of this project as a Sikh because we want and urge you to be. Sikhi demands this from all of us, especially from Gurbani scholars like you.

Your help with your wisdom and knowledge of Gurbani will be a gold mine for this project and we need you to be the first baton bearer for this Sikhi relay race for the sake of Sikhi.

I want to thank you in advance for that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 3, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> The bold is your interpretation.(Non-Spiritual... as per thread title)
> 
> The below is mine, underneath srigranth's (Spiritual and to my inner/sukham understanding)
> 
> ...



Guru Fateh to all.

I would request JapJi (Sahni Sahib) and Lucky ji to please post the whole Shabad with your understandings. It would be a good idea to also look at the preceding and the following pauris to enhance your understanding. You may post on the place which Aman ji has separated for us for this great endeavour.

Please, let's not hijack this wonderful thread and interaction that Akasha ji started.

I would leave it to the Moderators' discretion  to move the unrelated  posts in this thread to wherever they find it appropriate.

This request once again goes to *ALL* who post one liners in any thread, otherwise the Moderators will be forced to delete the whole post which would make some great thoughts disappear in vain.

Your cooperation would be much appreciated to streamline the interaction.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 3, 2014)

Gyani Ji,

Yes SGGS was written for humans to read and understand... because humans are the only ones with developed enough consciousness to understand and 'contemplate' Gurbani.  We are told numerous times that this is our chance... because THIS life is special. And that is why.  It doesn't mean that none of the other animals do not posses ANY consciousness at all.  Very many animals can and do act on more than pure instinct. When we realize that ALL is ONE then we can start to see that we as humans are really not so different from the rest of the animals... btw we are still animals.  And other animals posses consciousness on higher levels as well... dolphins for one, elephants, and many others have been proven to recognize their own 'self' in a mirror, a test often used to prove self awareness. 

I'm sure you already read my take on reincarnation being irrelevant so I won't repeat it... but I also don't believe that every reference in Gurbani is simply a metaphor for something else and that everything is just referring to states of mind etc.  There really IS much more to this Universe than this one physical life - you can see it if you open your mind... SGGS is not just a book on psychology.  It surpasses the physical in meaning as well.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 3, 2014)

Akasha ji just a thought if it helps in this thread.

Let us ask ourselves who was the audience for Guru ji when they tackled beliefs. These were predominantly Hindus of one belief version or another.

What these people possibly believed in  at that time, and many believe till today and so it continues is the following,


A hierarchy of Gods and subordinates;
To reach to the Gods for favors, to be saved from being born as a worm or a snake as part of the 8.4 million life forms (reincarnation), good luck, asking for disease to remedied, the possible birth of a son, to get the Gods to provide rain, save from floods thereafter,  were and still are,
The Brahmins;
That is where the hierarchy upward to wards God, the understanding thereof starts;
 
The Guru ji audience was not the Brahmins as this hierarchy created their livelihood and they were not so eager to leave their place at the top of the humanity heap;
So Guru ji approached the oppressed, the misled, the misguided, and such directly bypassing the Brahmins;
Guru ji had to talk the talk of the audience to ensure their message, their teachings, and guidance found traction;
As part of this methodology Guru ji talked about re-incarnation and the like and guided people away from these myths;
If Guru ji state in a shabad that if you understand this way or relate to the creator that way, then you will break the reincarnation cycle;
It is wrong to conjecture from this that since they said if you do, you will break the cycle of joons/rebirths, that they some how implied that otherwise you will go through the 8.4 million cycle of life forms;
 
The same applies to other stuff like eating meat, believing in karma in that when something bad happens you are paying for wrongs done by your forefathers and the Brahmin can talk to God and do things that will right such issues, and so on;
Guru ji's teaching is for the indoctrinated and myth believers. I don't think Guru ji felt that they needed so much teaching for the open minded and with reasonable logic thought processes and cognition.
This is the meaning of "contextual" when we read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and try to understand or declare it is like this or that and "I am right"/"You are wrong" and vice versa. For the right minded perhaps there are few areas to refresh one's understandings through challenge and thought while for the heavily indoctrinated with beliefs trumped in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the challenge is substantial. For some the challenge may be insurmountable if they are also continuously bombarded by misdirecting people that they are influenced by.

Even when one should not generalize, it is so easy to see who is coming from which camp through their posts.

Let the shared learning continue.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 3, 2014)

Abarsariah Ji,
Well said.
The "Context" of Gurbani is vital in understanding its message.

TODAY, the PUJAREE CLASS..the half baked Granthis, Bhai Jis, Ragis, kathawachaks, etc etc and at the APEX the so called JATHEDARS or the self appointed THEKEDAARS or CUSTODIANS have assumed the position of the Brahmin/Mullah referenced to in Gurbani and being BYPASSED by the Gurus and Bhagats in their attempt to reach  the Masses.

There was nothing "spiritual" about the Brahmin and there is nothing "spiritual" about the granthis and bhai jis or Jathedars...BUT they ahve assumed the exact same status in Gurmatt as the Brahmin..so today you have Bhai Jis in Groups of FIVE .."FEEDING OFF or Parasiting" on the Hard earned labour of Sikhs who think that by feeding these parasites their ancestors or dearly departed will be FED....clothing them will clothe them..giving them gold and gifts like IPhones will enable their dead to have Means of Wifi Connection in the AFTERLIFE !!!  The CHINESE take this to a entirely differnet level..These days its the festival of teh Dead..and the Chinese are busy sedning off Mercedes, and BMWs and Boeing jets etc etc to their DEAD ( via burning exact replicas made of paper)....Some years back..a "brahmin" declared that one of the dead had visited him in a dream and complained that the Hundreds of thousands of Mercedes BMW and Jaguars Rolls Royces sent earlier were lying unused in Heaven because the Chinese had Neglected to send GAS STATIONS/Petrol Pumps over....and so now many send competed replicas of Caltex, Mobil, BP Gas Stations complete with Mini Market, food stalls, MCDonalds and KFCs. The Latest trend is to send these dead LUXURY CONDOS..fully furnished.. and having MAIDS, gardeners, Guards, Butlers etc THIS is a MULTI BILLION DOLLAR business..employing thousands, and a means of lucrative income to many thousands more...Never Mind the AIR Pollution caused by the mass burnings of luxury condos, mercedes Boeings and petrol stations and hyper markets.

Luckily (keep fingers crossed) this  FRENZY to send good and services OVER the BORDER...hasnt yet reached US..we are content with FEEDING the FIVE parasites, donating some bhandeh and clothes bistrah etc only...BUT some are do getting there..Gurdwaras are being presented Rice Cookers, Microwaves, Fridges, Water coolers...as SIKHS have more welath to spend..and just the simple thalee and Drinking Glass look a bit too cheap for a Sikh who drove a mercedes while alive..Gurdwaras are being forced to put these "extras" in storage and may soon reach the stage of the RUMALLAH SITUATION !!! (Everyone is painfully aware fot eh overflowing rumallahs in all Gurdwaras).....and Gold Domes, Gold Palkis, Next will be Gold Stairs, Gold Bhandehs for karrah parshaad??? Maybe Gold Fans, Gold Airconditioners in Sukhasan Rooms ?? list is endless..  This is CAMOUFLAGED as "for teh GURU SGGS.." but its a Thinly VEILED effort to Courier these to the dead over the border as GURU NANAK JI saw at Kumbh Mela throwing water to the Sun...and In Asa Ki vaar Guru ji ahs already explained in Vaddihahyeh haath delal ke..pitreen siyaan their goods etc....THIS CANNOT be Taken as GURU JI ENDORSING the "goods reaching" there can it ??  Guru Ji is giving us an EXAMPLE.NOT ENDORSING the courier agents deeds....delaals and all...BUT those doing a "spiritual" interpretation might very well take this as Guru Ji endorsing the sending over of goods..but just sending the halaal ones...not stolen goods !!!(This is because the Spiritual ones are slyly EXPECTING the faithful to Hand over these Goods to THEM in this LIFETIME to enjoy...while "making empty promises" that they will deliver them over there !!! THATS how DERAS and the Bharamgyanis stock their deras with imported cars and gold beds and fly in private jets...

The GURUS came to DISPELL the DHUNDDH..the darkness surrounding RELIGION..and ensure the Sun Sooraj of Gyaan Knowledge shine through...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 3, 2014)

The couriering of "Akahnd paaths and sehaj paaths"..Parrhhee bani da Phall vichhrree ROOH nu Deanna is mentioned in Ardass and is proof of the pudding we make daily thousnads of times the world over..and this provides a Lucarative source of income to many Hundreds of thosuands of Granthis and Pujarees - who mostly DONT DO any paath at all but simply take the FULL PAYMENT..and they are certianly not afraid of Vaddheyeha haath delal keh that Guru ji warns in asa Ki vaar !!  Today GURBANI is multi billion dollar industry...Gurbani is being sold and milked for its commercial use..and the BASIS of this FRAUD is the "spiritual" interpreters/Group. Unknowingly or otherwise this group is helping to perpetuate this Fraud on unsuspecting Sikhs or Sikhs looking for an easy short cut !!!

GURBANI is for THIS LIFE TIME..for the LIVING to READ, Understand and imbibe...its fraudalent to say that Gurbani BENEFITS the DEAD..or thsoe who have crossed over and are EXPECTING the living to read it, pay for it to be read..so that they cna benefit form it when while LIVING they neglected it... Bhagt Kabir ji is directly alluding to this commercila venture when he questions ..HOW will you read Gurbani when you have two horns and are forced to plough the fields and eat grass ??..The Answer is SIMPLE - ask the Spiritually enlightened..and He will say..JUST PAY ME..and I will do an Entire 1429 page Akahnd Paath or sehaj paath and your departed BUFFALO DADDY will get the BENEFITS..GUARANTEED.  Guru Nanak ji alluded to this too in the SHARAADH Shabads/Sakhi....where the person was FEEDING the Brahmins hoping for his departed daddy reborn as wolf to be fed via the Brahmins babbar !!

All these reincarnations and all the rest jingle bells...teeraths bbaths, sarovars ishnaans, and yatras, fasts, etc etc are smoke screens to keep the GYAAN covered....and SECRET from the MASSES as a way of control of their mindfs which the GURUS spent 250 years FREEING...


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## mandemeet (Aug 3, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Mandemeet ji
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh ji
Sat Sree Akaal ji

Thanks for your kind words, rather exceptional compliments, which I truly don’t deserve. Clearly it is an example of your having a big heart. Aman Singh ji’s and your idea is excellent, but unfortunately I will not be available. Very rarely, I come on this site or go on other Sikh sites. When I go, I avoid involving in discussions. My routine doesn’t allow me to go on internet for significant time, but the Gurbani discussion needs that. In the morning and before going to bed, I reflect on the Gurbani myself. It helps me. I felt to comment on Japjisahib ji’s one-liner preaching with his personal approach; unfortunately, it didn’t go well. Sometime the purpose of intersecting with people having different mind-sets doesn’t result in beneficial effect for spiritual objectives. No hard feelings. I feel Lucky Singh ji, Chaz Singh ji, Harmanpreet Singh ji, Ambersaya ji, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Japjisahib004 ji, you and many more can contribute good presentation for the project. I entreat forgiveness for my opting out. Thanks for the invitation.

Sincerely
mandemeet


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 3, 2014)

Lighthearted fun...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQvIP8tWUDY


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 4, 2014)

Tejwant Jee

I suggest we start from first pauree so as to remain in sequence and present contextual meaning. 
best regards
sahni


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 4, 2014)

a long time ago Amarpal ji also used to post here...his understandings and translations..but havent heard from him for quite some time..it would be good if he could join us again..


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 4, 2014)

Gyani Jee

I have gone through his interpretation. We will try to reach to the depth of the sabd, if some wise person don't hijack this wonderful thread and will permit us to maintain the decoram. What is the use of that gian, if it even didn't  change your charactger 'ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਨੁ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥  I don't think we need this type of intervention on this form. Though I quote sometime one liner but I have never interpreted gurbani without reflecting rahao or its context.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 5, 2014)

Sahni Ji,

There are One Liners and there are one liners...


When a One-Liner reflects the entire SHABAD..its different....
BUT whats mostly always the case..one-liners are taken OUT OF CONTEXT to push a point through and when the RAHAO or the entire Shabad is referenced..the SUBTERFUGE is caught.   THAT was the Original intention of BANNING/DISCOURAGING the one-liners being posted...because 99.9% of those one liners were subterfuge agenda backed and sans the Central theme Rahao tuk or essence of full shabad...Hence FULL SHABAD was requested to DETER this type of fraud upon our readers.

To be very frank, your ONE LINERS have never been found wanting when the full shabad or Rahao tuk is referenced. I have never found any fault there.

Regards

jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 5, 2014)

There have always been "two or three or more" Groups...the Faridkotee Teeka was representative of one Group who would label themselves the "Spiritual interpreters"...the Baba Group, derawadee group, takslais sanatanists vedantists etc etc..then along came Bhai Vir Singh whose teeka (incomplete) was a slight deviation from the faridkotees..Bhai kahn Singh nabah shoe Gurmatt maartand, Mahan Kosh etc works widened the distance between the two groups...Then Manmohan Singh completed his tteka of 8 volumes and the chasm widened further....then came  Prof SAHIB SINGH whose monumental SGGS Darpan took the Sikh World by Storm...he was vehemently OPPOSED by the Derawadee sanatinst vedantic fareedkotee teeka sikhs...His GRAMMAR was ridiculed as trying to BIND Gurbani..limit Gurbani etc etc..
BUT the Real Litmus Test came when the INTERNET opened the floodgates.....and the Dsm Granth authenticity, Bhai Gurdass jis 41st vaar, Gurbilas Patshai chhevin, Gurbials Pat dasvein, Bhai mani Singh letters, Hukmanmahs etc etc Bhai Bala janam Sakhi etc etc began to be put to the Gurbani LITMUS TEST and many faults, wantiings, shortcomings came to the fore..

Akal Takhat, Badal Govt Power, Money from SGPC Golucks,Derawadee Golucks, Taksals, etc etc etc etc were pitted against "the other side"...Battle Lines were drawn..and the battle began in earnest..rest is HISTORY...Kala Afghana, Prof darshan Singh, Prof sarabjit Singh Dhundah..whoever was seen as a THREAT to the Vedantic/sanatanist/Fareedkotee version of Sikhs was censored and if adamant then was EXCOMMUNICATED in attempts to SILENCE and destroy....Obviously all these attempts failed miserably..yet the Battle continues...More "politically motivated excommunications have occurred in last two DECADES than in the entire History of Sikhs....
20 Years ago those who ridiculed the Grammar assertions of prof sahib Singh and would pronounce the Aunkarrs and siharees etc EXTRA LOUD..have turned around and began admitting that these are Grammar markers and not to be Pronounced...Sir Shaha ke SHAHOOOOOOOOO is utterly meaningless as the extra loud ooooooo aunkaar under SHAH(u) has  a MEANING and is not a SOUND. Taksali studnets too began to QUESTION..whats the menaing of SHAHOOOOOOOOO !! and being unable to answer..these taksali babas began to silently admit Prof sahib Singh Ji ii RIGHT..a GRUDGING admission but an admission no doubt...Those who doubt can buy the Book Gurbani paath darshan by Taksalli Baba and compare it with Prof Sahib Singh to see one is Sun the other is Candle - depending on which "group" one belongs to..the "spiritual" one or the "atheist kala afghana group"..
The Advent of  t he Internet and the Information Tsunami has done a lot to spread the LIGHT of Gurbani..dispersed most of the dhunddh intentionally spread by vested interests to safeguard "spirituality" assertions and claims and dismiss the atheists and non beleivers, kafirs communists comrades etc....in actual fact..the real atheists and comrades types are about  a s many  a s Atteh vich loonn..salt in Flour....


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 5, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> There have always been "two or three or more" Groups...the Faridkotee Teeka was representative of one Group who would label themselves the "Spiritual interpreters"...the Baba Group, derawadee group, takslais sanatanists vedantists etc etc..then along came Bhai Vir Singh whose teeka (incomplete) was a slight deviation from the faridkotees.



And the so-called spiritual interpreters! I wonder do they know what is spirituality. To turn ordinary into extra ordinary is spirituality. To see God in all is spirituality. To take along, all with you is spiritulity. As Guru sahib in japjisahib says, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥ to uplift deprived and make them worthy is spiritulity. Gurbani is a universal truth, THUS TO INTERPRET EACH AND EVERY PANTIEES IN WAY THAT IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE IRRESPECTIVE OF GENDER, CASTE AND OR AGE IS SPIRITULITY. Gurbani clearly tells us, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਏਹਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਏਹਾ ਕਰਮਾਤਿ ॥੨॥ to see God in all is spirituality. 

I was reading a pankti in the morning, ' ਤੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਮੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਖੋਇ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ almost every available teeka, who interpreted this pankties relates this with youth age. And by translating 'ਜੋਬਨੁ ਖੋਇ' - 'losing young age' I don't see any spirituality. I noticed we listen half, understand quarter, think zero and react double thus misses the essence. I came to conclusion guru sahib is referring 'ਜੋਬਨੁ ਖੋਇ' as priority of this life which is emulating the inner voice but our priority is only gathering dollars and pulling the legs. The last line of the sabd also supports of priority, 'ਉਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੈ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਸਵੇਰਾ ॥੪॥੧॥ O Shaykh Fareed, think of that priority of emulating divine wisdom, as early as possible to make your life 'amritvela'. The moment we are awaken that velya is prabhat.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 5, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> And the so-called spiritual interpreters! I wonder do they know what is spirituality. To turn ordinary into extra ordinary is spirituality. To see God in all is spirituality. To take along, all with you is spiritulity. As Guru sahib in japjisahib says, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥ to uplift deprived and make them worthy is spiritulity. Gurbani is a universal truth, THUS TO INTERPRET EACH AND EVERY PANTIEES IN WAY THAT IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE IRRESPECTIVE OF GENDER, CASTE AND OR AGE IS SPIRITULITY. Gurbani clearly tells us, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਏਹਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਏਹਾ ਕਰਮਾਤਿ ॥੨॥ to see God in all is spirituality.
> 
> I was reading a pankti in the morning, ' ਤੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਮੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਖੋਇ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ almost every who interpreted this pankties relates this with youth age. And by translating 'ਜੋਬਨੁ ਖੋਇ' - 'losing young age' I don't see any spirituality. I noticed we listen half, understand quarter, think zero and react double thus misses the essence. I came to conclusion guru sahib is referring to priority of this life which is emulating the inner voice but our priority is only gathering dollars.


 



I have come to the conclusion, those who don't believe in anything beyond the physical will never believe it until they experience it for themselves. Until then, they will only believe what their physical eyes can see, and they will interpret everything in that sense. 

Those of us who interpret it as having spiritual meaning beyond the physical, usually already HAVE experienced it... or at least glimpsed it to varying degrees through personal experiences. 

Neither one of us will change our views... the skeptic can't see until he is shown, and those who have been shown can not 'unsee'.

Because of my own personal experiences (I am not interpreting anything on blind belief) I interpret Gurbani to have meaning that far surpasses the physical.  I don't believe SGGS is merely a psychology book written in cryptic poetry that only a few can understand. There is FAR more to existence than we experience in this physical life and this physical life is not all there is - you don't just cease to exist.  So if SGGS accurately describes experiences that some of us have had, that can only be counted as [spiritual] then that is a huge coincidence no?? Unless it was MEANT to!   

If it was written as many of you state, for the 'common man' then the meaning should not be so difficult to asertain... but yet the meanings some of you are attributing to things, to me is a far stretch when the [spiritual] meaning to me pops right out in the wording as is....no need to decipher any hidden meaning in metaphors upon metaphors that most would not understand... I mean, ESPECIALLY since those metaphors used are dealing with concepts that people at the time knew, why would it be thought that they could easily substitue some state of mind or psychology for a concept that they knew so well all their lives that was verymuch not simply a state of mind? There would need to be some sort of codex saying that reincarnation = bipolar, this=that etc. I would think... And if you substitue one state of mind for one [spiritual] concept in one shabad... it doesn't seem to work in another shabad. Yet the original concept presented does work in both if you look at it in a spiritual sense... how can you explain that?

How can you explain that those of us who have actually HAD REAL [spiritual] experiences, can easily see them described in SGGS accurately??  It can't be just coincidence... and if you experienced it yourself, you would KNOW what I mean, and you would KNOW that there is more to the world than the physical... without any doubts.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 5, 2014)

Akasha said:


> And if you substitue one state of mind for one [spiritual] concept in one shabad... it doesn't seem to work in another shabad. Yet the original concept presented does work in both if you look at it in a spiritual sense... how can you explain that?
> 
> How can you explain that those of us who have actually HAD REAL [spiritual] experiences, can easily see them described in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji accurately??  It can't be just coincidence... and if you experienced it yourself, you would KNOW what I mean, and you would KNOW that there is more to the world than the physical... without any doubts.


 As earlier stated that gurbani is not written to freighten us and in negative sense but in a state of chardhi kala. Thus guru sahib are not referring to wrinkle, grey hair,feeble body but is telling us how to eliminate our miseries. 

Further I would be obliged if you can cite any example where as claimed by you that original concept presented does work in both if we look at it in a spirital sense by your thought process.

best regards


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 5, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> As earlier stated that gurbani is not written to freighten us and in negative sense but in a state of chardhi kala. Thus guru sahib are not referring to wrinkle, grey hair but is telling us how to eliminate our miseries.
> 
> Further I would be obliged if you can cite any example where as claimed by you that original concept presented does work in both if we look at it in a spirital sense by your thought process.
> 
> best regards


 

Can you please show me where it states that references in SGGS to 'grey hair' instead mean 'miseries'? Is there a 'key' or 'codex' somewhere within SGGS that says we are to take references to 'grey hair' and 'aging' to mean instead 'miseries'? Or is that just your personal view and interpretation?  

Because in the context of the shabad he posted, it clearly is talking about taking life for granted and only realizing that fact when one is too old. That in itself is using metaphor... and you have somehow pulled even more metaphor out of it that is in no way related to the words... Aging and grey hair have no integral meaning to 'miseries' in any sense of the word... even metaphorical.  The metaphorical meaning would be 'regret about wasted time' which is still the meaning as worded... in no way can I find to interpret aging and time passing by to mean simply 'miseries' or a state of mind that causes miseries.

And talking of regret over wasted time, is not to instill fear... It's a positive message - because it's saying that it is NEVER too late.  You may be old and grey now, but death has NOT knocked at your door yet, so use what time you have wisely... no matter what age you are.  So I do not see it as a message to instill fear at all. But instead it's a celebration of the time we have now, in this human form, while also being made aware that it will someday end, so its telling us to use it wisely... and find [Waheguru Ji] while we have the chance. It's not negative at all!! However, misleading people that they can find [God] when they really just mean a way to not feel miserable.  That to me is negative... and its like holding the carrot and then pulling it away with some hidden meaning that is common snese and really doesn't need over 1400 pages for people to know.

The statement about spiritual context working in multiple shabads, was a generalization... but I can find some examples give me a few days... but just as one example... the reference to 'celestial sound currents' 'celestial vibrations' etc. There are those of us who either through meditation or a deeply transformative spiritual experience that happened spontaneously or a traumatic event etc., have eactually HEARD these sounds... in a very real sense...not metaphorically.  They are not simply a code word for some working of the mind or some state of mind or harmony with your neighbours. They are very real... And in every instance where they are mentioned, it mentions 'hearing' them or 'listening' to them.  It's not referring to a metaphor for a state of mind... everywhere mentioned, the context is that one can HEAR them and LISTEN to them when you contemplate inward. When you are in deep meditation some can actually FEEL these vibrations as well... These vibrations, and sounds, I surmise (and is just my opinion) are related to the fact that the entire workings of the universe are vibrational in nature... right down to the energy that vibrates matter into existence.  Some of us have actually heard it by contemplating on the Guru - as instructed in SGGS.  So my point is, that when those of us who HAVE experienced the [spiritual] aspect of existence can so easily relate to what is written - as worded, and we have actually had these REAL experiences, then it can not be mere coincidence.  And surely you can see how when our eyes have been opened, we can not simply close them and look at SGGS as a psychology book with no deeper meaning...


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 5, 2014)

Akasha said:


> Can you please show me where it states that references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to 'grey hair' instead mean 'miseries'? Is there a 'key' or 'codex' somewhere within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that says we are to take references to 'grey hair' and 'aging' to mean instead 'miseries'? Or is that just your personal view and interpretation?
> 
> Because in the context of the shabad he posted, it clearly is talking about taking life for granted and only realizing that fact when one is too old. That in itself is using metaphor... and you have somehow pulled even more metaphor out of it that is in no way related to the words... Aging and grey hair have no integral meaning to 'miseries' in any sense of the


 Akasha Jee

Blessing to you for raising these points. 

Let me represent again

ਤੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਮੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਖੋਇ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 


Don't you think literal interpretation of 'joban khoey' is a state where the energy is lost with wrinkle on face, feeble body and grey hair. And realizing 'joban khoey' is a state of guilt, that it is too late to repent and regret (aab pachtai kya hot jabh chidiya chug gayee khait) in medical term a state of depression.

Since gurbani is universal truth, thus we need to find universal meaning of it, so that it applies to all ages of people, and not categories gurbani's pankties for old people and young people separately. Thus while looking at the last line of the sabd, ' 'ਉਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੈ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਸਵੇਰਾ ॥੪॥੧॥ O Shaykh Fareed, think of that priority of emulating divine wisdom, as early as possible to make your life 'amritvela'. The moment manh is awaken that velya is worth - prabhat, thus meaning of 'joban khoey' is clear now that since my intellect is not able to differentiate between spiritual and material priorties,  I am suffering. 

Rest I will answer you upon submission of pankties. In the meantime I am enjoying interacting with you, feel free to raise any doubt.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 5, 2014)

> Can you please show me where it states that references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to 'grey hair' instead mean 'miseries'? Is there a 'key' or 'codex' somewhere within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that says we are to take references to 'grey hair' and 'aging' to mean instead 'miseries'? Or is that just your personal view and interpretation?



I have always thought it was his personal view, surely only a {censored} would state anything as fact where EK Onkar is concerned.



> Because in the context of the shabad he posted, it clearly is talking about taking life for granted and only realizing that fact when one is too old. That in itself is using metaphor... and you have somehow pulled even more metaphor out of it that is in no way related to the words... Aging and grey hair have no integral meaning to 'miseries' in any sense of the word... even metaphorical. The metaphorical meaning would be 'regret about wasted time' which is still the meaning as worded... in no way can I find to interpret aging and time passing by to mean simply 'miseries' or a state of mind that causes miseries.



I have to confess not reading the original post, however, most people have misery in their life, in some way, and at some time, grey hair often denotes wisdom in the Indian culture, most wisdom comes through suffering, through misery, it would not be impossible to lump misery with grey hair, the older someone is, the more chances they have been miserable.



> And talking of regret over wasted time, is not to instill fear... It's a positive message



yes, its a bit like a parent beating a child for its own benefit, the positive message is hard to see at the time, it just feels like fear



> because it's saying that it is NEVER too late.



to what? get baptised? meet god? feel his power? I am genuinely curious, what is this feeling that has so many of you by the short and curlies? Is it a feeling, or a state of mind? does it need to be kept up? or once you get it, you have it forever?



> But instead it's a celebration of the time we have now, in this human form, while also being made aware that it will someday end, so its telling us to use it wisely... and find [Waheguru Ji] while we have the chance.



again, I am genuinely curious, what does it feel like to find Waheguruji?



> The statement about spiritual context working in multiple shabads, was a generalization... but I can find some examples give me a few days... but just as one example... the reference to 'celestial sound currents' 'celestial vibrations' etc. There are those of us who either through meditation or a deeply transformative spiritual experience that happened spontaneously or a traumatic event etc., have eactually HEARD these sounds... in a very real sense...not metaphorically. They are not simply a code word for some working of the mind or some state of mind or harmony with your neighbours. They are very real... And in every instance where they are mentioned, it mentions 'hearing' them or 'listening' to them. It's not referring to a metaphor for a state of mind... everywhere mentioned, the context is that one can HEAR them and LISTEN to them when you contemplate inward. When you are in deep meditation some can actually FEEL these vibrations as well... These vibrations, and sounds, I surmise (and is just my opinion) are related to the fact that the entire workings of the universe are vibrational in nature... right down to the energy that vibrates matter into existence. Some of us have actually heard it by contemplating on the Guru - as instructed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So my point is, that when those of us who HAVE experienced the [spiritual] aspect of existence can so easily relate to what is written - as worded, and we have actually had these REAL experiences, then it can not be mere coincidence. And surely you can see how when our eyes have been opened, we can not simply close them and look at Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a psychology book with no deeper meaning...



and there are those of us that just go about quietly with our life, trying to make a difference, by seeing god in each and everything, I have said it before and I will say it again, this seems all a bit me me me, does a starving child care about the celestial vibrations? Can a starving child learn something from the sggs? can a starving child change their future through actions in line with Creation?


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## Sherdil (Aug 5, 2014)

I'd like to know, what is the end result of feeling these vibrations and listening to the celestial music? Does it give you special powers? Can one see the Matrix (if you get the movie reference)? Or does one conquer the self, thus creating harmony with the world around you? I think the latter is the epitome of destroying Haumai and blending with the Shabadh. To go against the Hukam is to try to change the outside world to suit your inner desires. Sikhi looks at it from the opposite perspective. Change the inner self, to better flow with your surroundings, while maintaining divine focus. 

On the concept of chardi kala, I think this varies from person to person. Some are able to go through war and remain in chardi kala. Others wither away at the sight of rain clouds. Therefore, I don't think we should interpret gurbani according our standard of chardi kala. I don't see why that Baba Farid shabadh, with death as the central focus, cannot be viewed in chardi kala. Isn't that the whole point of "Hukam raazi chalna"? Accept what life throws at you, and push forward. 

As a final note, I would like to see all members adhere to the rule of posting the entire shabadh with page number. I'm not a mod and cannot enforce this rule, but I think it helps others to benefit from your wisdom. I think that is why we are all here; to learn from each other.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 5, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I'd like to know, what is the end result of feeling these vibrations and listening to the celestial music? Does it give you special powers? Can one see the Matrix (if you get the movie reference)?



Not unless you consider realization that there is much more than the physical, and that you are much more than your physical shell a special power?  I don't... however that realization certainly IS powerful!


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## Sherdil (Aug 5, 2014)

Akasha said:


> Not unless you consider realization that there is much more than the physical, and that you are much more than your physical shell a special power?  I don't... however that realization certainly IS powerful!



Okay. What happens after you realize that?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 5, 2014)

A Christian neighbour of mine ( reborn/Born AGAIN.. Christian - i mean REBORN in this Life time..not from some other joon/lifetime.. or whatever..and also NOT Born-Again in the sense that he emerged from his mothers womb a second time..sheesh..hard to explain...its simply Born_Again/reborn Christian and his age body etc is the exact same)...REALIZED....and now he BLEEDS from his palms and Ribs as he beleives Jesus was nailed to the Cross by huge nails in his palms..and a Roman Soldier pushed a spear into his rib to check if he was still alive or gone...and He tells me..YES..The REALISATION is POWERFUL....how else could i bleed exactly as Jesus did 2000++ years ago..

Sadly I have yet to come across a SIKH..who can say he is REALIZED..and feel "split apart" as Bhai Mati Dass Ji was...or feel boiled all over like Bhai Dyala Ji was..or scorched all over as Guru Arjun Ji was on the Hot Plate..or Get grilled all voer like Bhai Sati dass was..or Feel his Joints cut like Bhai Mani Singh was...HOWEVER..Sikh History ahs HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of real life Bhai matidasses, satiDasses, Mani Singhs and Bhai Dyalas....who suffered REAL LIFE and Martyred in REAL TIME..just like the real mati dasses and Mani Singhs....

THERE must be a difference...REALISATION...POWERFUL REALISATION..and VIRTUAL "bleeding"...Virtual Martyrdom..verses the REAL LIFE and Real Time Martyrdom of say..Bhai jarnail Singh bhinderawallah..Gen Subegh Singh etc of 1984...and certain Sikhs who were BOILED ALIVE like Bhai Dyala ji...Burned alive..had acid poured into their orifices etc etc....but by Punjab Police and indeed they DIED in Real Life/Real Time...leaving the "Virtual Powerful realisations" to those who enjoy this sort.."high"...but continue to live in real time exactly as they did before the powerful realsiations...I wonder what the USE of that ???  IN local Malay Language this is called "Syok sendiri"..self gratification (spiritual)???? 

A SIKH is a Cog in the wheel of CHANGE...whatever he realities..whether powerful or powerless..has to CHANGE himself..and the Samaaj...Society around him.  If the realisation is "secret" then its self defeating "GURMATT":japosatnamwaheguru::japosatnamwaheguru::japosatnamwaheguru:..somewhat like..I love the WAJA..have 4 different types in my Music room..BUT also realised I ma tune deaf..muisc deaf..tone deaf..and totally ILLETERATE in this filed..But it doesnt stope me from sealing shut my Music Room (sound proofed)..and sitting at my vajas and pumping away..and hitting my Tabla setc..dholkee..saranda..etc etc..I Just have to make sure my "realisation of Music" is kept secret.....its too powerful....birds flying overhead may die from hearing my vaja !!!:japosatnamwaheguru::japosatnamwaheguru::japosatnamwaheguru:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 5, 2014)

Isher Singh ( or the other one..Nand Singh ) is said to have "powerful realisation" so strong that he could make GURU NANAK emerge from the SGGS and EAT the food placed before IT. ( or HIM if it makes you comfortable).

Imho..I place much more value on the "powerful spiritual realisation" of Bhagat Pooran Singh Pingalwarra vallah..who peddled his bicycle for miles, sold scrap paper and out of the meagre resources...FED a FEW street children found abandoned.

The GURU (Nanak - Guru Gobind Singh) in SGGS has NO NEED of any Food/Water/Warm Blankets etc etc.....BUT the NEEDY ONES in the Pingallwarra do NEED all the food, allt he water..all the warm blankets etc etc to SURVIVE !!!  I go with the Powerful realisations of Bhagat Pooran Singh naytime rather than be AWED by the Powerful Spiritual Realisation of Ishar/nand of Nanaksar in having force fed Guru Nanak via their Haath/japp/Tapp/ Whatever !!!

2. Those FED by Pooran Singh are still living today..and the FEEDING at Pingallwarra continues...not so at Nanaksar..where they fight and shoot at each other over the GOLUCKS...Guru Nanak Must be ?????


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## Luckysingh (Aug 6, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I'd like to know, what is the end result of feeling these vibrations and listening to the celestial music?


 
Do you really want to know or just poking fun ?
If you really wanted to experience, then you wouldn't ask



> Does it give you special powers? Can one see the Matrix (if you get the movie reference)? Or does one conquer the self ?


 
what is a special power ?......all these powers are special to your ego.
In the inner kingdom of waheguru, there is no ego, so how could a special power be...
...Oh yes, BTW I am very frightened and fearful of kryptonite!..lol



> thus creating harmony with the world around you? I think the latter is the epitome of destroying Haumai and blending with the Shabadh.


Blending with the shabad, is when you hear it, focusing your consciousness on it and then letting your mind die in it.



> To go against the Hukam is to try to change the outside world to suit your inner desires. Sikhi looks at it from the opposite perspective. ,*Change the inner self* to better flow with your surroundings, while maintaining divine focus.


That's an agreeable statement, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Firstly, if your inner desire is to be with ONE and experience Waheguru, then you can NOT possibly be going against HUKAM.
When someone is merged with waheguru, then they are in complete hukam.
Hukam cannot be changed but your freewill can drives and command your ego.

 I don't understand how you would *''change your inner self'' *without being spiritual.


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## Sherdil (Aug 6, 2014)

Luckysingh said:
			
		

> Do you really want to know or just poking fun ?
> If you really wanted to experience, then you wouldn't ask


I really want to know. What is the end result of hearing this celestial music? What happens?

Why can't I ask this question?


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 6, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I really want to know. What is the end result of hearing this celestial music? What happens?



end result  ....A feeling :it should not  have ended , my fault ,must have hide something from Friend ,then bigger thirst .


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## Luckysingh (Aug 6, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I really want to know. What is the end result of hearing this celestial music? What happens?
> 
> Why can't I ask this question?


 
What does an apple taste like ?
I really want to know.

Oh yes, what does velvet and fur feel like to stroke ? ....and how would you distinguish ??


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 6, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I really want to know. What is the end result of hearing this celestial music? What happens?
> 
> Why can't I ask this question?



How do you know when you are in love?  Describe it...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 6, 2014)

Akasha said:


> How do you know when you are in love?  Describe it...



your doing  this wrong, your supposed to be selling this to us...


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 6, 2014)

harry haller said:


> your doing  this wrong, your supposed to be selling this to us...



I am done selling...  I was never a good sales person.  

I have come to the conclusion, that some people live in a box. They don't know anything outside of that box, so to them, the box is all there is, and they are perfectly happy living in the box and never wondering what's beyond the lid, no matter what others might say to try to explain to them that there is much more to existence than the box.  Others, like myself, have noticed a crack in the lid, and have seen outside the box. We have seen what lies beyond the box...and we can never forget what we saw when peeping through the crack in the lid, and so we can never go back to just living in a box.  

See the dilemma??


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 6, 2014)

Akasha said:


> I am done selling...  I was never a good sales person.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion, that some people live in a box. They don't know anything outside of that box, so to them, the box is all there is, and they are perfectly happy living in the box and never wondering what's beyond the lid, no matter what others might say to try to explain to them that there is much more to existence than the box.  Others, like myself, have noticed a crack in the lid, and have seen outside the box. We have seen what lies beyond the box...and we can never forget what we saw when peeping through the crack in the lid, and so we can never go back to just living in a box.
> 
> See the dilemma??



Akasha ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is interesting to notice that you call others living in a box except you. You have been judging others all over this thread and when asked for the specifics several times by me about your accusations where you posted the names of some of us, you have denied anything of that sort.

Come to think of it, according to your own definition earlier, the " two groups" are living in a box. I am sorry to say, it is a bit arrogant on your part to put others in a box. It shows you have some kind of complex. You decide which one. I have been quietly watching this go on  and this is leading  nowhere. You continue  with subtle jabs and name callings. Is this what you call is your Spiritual path?

Regarding your question about being in love, please read my very first post in this thread when you started it. It is a personal thing.Everyone has a different meaning/feeling of/for love and the same goes for the path of Sikhi. You are the one who is putting yourself in the "Love Box" in which you have admitted you are in, yet you accuse others of being in some kind of other box.

 A Hatred Box?

Which is it Akasha ji?  

You may call your path Spiritual and no one is accusing you of anything which is contrary in your case because you have labelled others including myself but I myself have no problem with it. And please do not degrade others who use a different terminology which you have coined for them as only the Physical one quite often.

It is demeaning to whichever path you are seeking.

It is a dilemma indeed for you, not for anyone else. This is the reason why you have declared not to take Amrit and leave the Sikhi Path. No one has forced you to be on this path and no one is pushing you out of it except yourself and please be brave enough to admit it rather than pointing fingers at others.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Sherdil (Aug 6, 2014)

Luckysingh said:
			
		

> What does an apple taste like ?
> I really want to know.
> 
> Oh yes, what does velvet and fur feel like to stroke ? ....and how would you distinguish ??



Apples taste sweet. Sometimes they taste sour if they get too ripe. 

Velvet is soft to the touch. It feels fuzzy and smooth. Fur feels like hair, but the consistency depends on the animal. 



			
				Akasha said:
			
		

> How do you know when you are in love?  Describe it...



Love feels like you are addicted to the person. 



			
				Akasha said:
			
		

> We have seen what lies beyond the box...and we can never forget what we  saw when peeping through the crack in the lid, and so we can never go  back to just living in a box.
> 
> See the dilemma??



Not really. Just tell us what you saw. 

You  guys are getting offended because you are reading too much into my  question. I have nothing up my sleeve. There are no hidden traps.  Imagine if a non-Sikh asked you this question. What would you say to  them?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 6, 2014)

Tejwant Ji,  I posted that because frankly its what it feels like... how else can I describe that I have had powerful spiritual experiences, only to have people question them and tell me they were only states of mind and not real.  It's frustrating because I feel so in awe and wish I could share it, but I can't... because yes it feels like some people don't want to see beyond the physical (what I called the 'box' in the last post)  I am not accusing anyone of anything... I am only frustrated because how can both groups ever meet in the middle?  

I have been the only one who has said that possibly Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written so that BOTH groups could find meaning in the same verses.  But then have others come on and say no it was written only for the physical and only for this life... basically equating it to a psychology book. 

That's why I said... I have given up selling... nothing I say can convince others of the experiences I have had, unless they have had the same experiences.  So unless / until they do... they can only see what they have.  

Maybe I am the one who is lowly then... if Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only written as an instruction manual o how to get along with others and be happy in this physical life, then maybe I am focusing too much on the spiritual and I should try to forget what I have experienced and live only for the physical.  The problem is... I can't forget... you know what if someone could make me forget that feeling of oneness and the awe and realization and HOPE that there is more than the physical... if anyone knows then tell me and I will.  It would make things so much easier. 

It wasn't meant to demean anyone as you have accused Tejwant Ji... it was meant to show my frustration in that how do you even begin to find common ground??  Every time I have presented a theory on how spiritual can actually agree with science, and that Gurbani agrees with it... I have been shot down in favour of it meaning simply a state of mind or getting along with others or not being miserable.  I have been the only one who suggested that maybe it was written so that both paths would get understanding from it, and that it was written like that on purpose... but again was shot down and attacked by Harry Ji, Japjisahib Ji, etc.  mocked by Sherdil, and accused by you.  I have not once accused anyone of anything, or mocked anyone, etc.  

Admin Ji pls delete this thread... it is going nowhere.


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## linzer (Aug 6, 2014)

I've been watching from the sidline and I think Guru ji covered this already.Pauris 12-15  of the Japji describe both sides of this topic perfectly so don't get your Kacheras in a bunch
 mMny kI giq khI n jwie ] <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:fficeffice" />
mannay kee gat kahee na jaa-ay.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
 jy ko khY ipCY pCuqwie ] 
jay ko kahai pichhai pachhutaa-ay.
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.
 kwgid klm n ilKxhwru ] 
kaagad kalam na likhanhaar.
No paper, no pen, no scribe
 mMny kw bih krin vIcwru ] 
mannay kaa bahi karan veechaar.
can record the state of the faithful.
 AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ] 
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
 jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]12] 
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||
 mMnY suriq hovY min buiD ] 
mannai surat hovai man buDh.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
 mMnY sgl Bvx kI suiD ] 
mannai sagal bhavan kee suDh.
The faithful know about all worlds and realms.
 mMnY muih cotw nw Kwie ] 
mannai muhi chotaa naa khaa-ay.
The faithful shall never be struck across the face.
 mMnY jm kY swiQ n jwie ] 
mannai jam kai saath na jaa-ay.
The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death.
 AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ] 
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
 jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]13] 
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||13||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||13||
 mMnY mwrig Twk n pwie ] 
mannai maarag thaak na paa-ay.
The path of the faithful shall never be blocked.
 mMnY piq isau prgtu jwie ] 
mannai pat si-o pargat jaa-ay.
The faithful shall depart with honor and fame.
 mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ] 
mannai mag na chalai panth.
The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.
 mMnY Drm syqI snbMDu ] 
mannai Dharam saytee san-banDh.
The faithful are firmly bound to the Dharma.
 AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ] 
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
 jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]14] 
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||14||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||14||
 mMnY pwvih moKu duAwru ] 
mannai paavahi mokh du-aar.
The faithful find the Door of Liberation.
 mMnY prvwrY swDwru ] 
mannai parvaarai saaDhaar.
The faithful uplift and redeem their family and relations.
 mMnY qrY qwry guru isK ] 
mannai tarai taaray gur sikh.
The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru.
 mMnY nwnk Bvih n iBK ] 
mannai naanak bhavahi na bhikh.
The faithful, O Nanak, do not wander around begging.
 AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ] 
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
 jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]15] 
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||15||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||15||
<o>Best wishes to all</o>
<o>Linzer</o>


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## Harry Haller (Aug 7, 2014)

I consider myself spiritual, however, to me spiritual means something different to tripping the light fantastic.


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 7, 2014)

Akasha Jee

I humbly tell you that I have no idea how to experience my beloved (or have any knowledge of that such powerful spiritual messages as seen by you which validate the experiences of those of you who have seen beyond the box) and in that state of mind, like my guru I request you to kindly tell me how to experience, 'ਕਿਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ॥ p.204 but guru sahib at the same time is requesting,  'ਕੋਈ ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤੁ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ' the invalueable technique of attaining ਸਹਜ by living with  ਸੰਤੁ divine traits, which shows me the path, 'ਮੋਹਿ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਦੇਇ ਬਤਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  so that I may be able to see beyond box as claimed by you Akasha jee, though guru sahib ends destination by achieving SEHJ.  But it seems the spiritual power you are referring is to break the 'sehj' and not attain the sehj. As living with divine traits, sehj subhai mera manh mania without any efforts.  

In the end of the sabd, guru sahib is telling since both my 'manh and traits of nijghar are able to see face to face, I am in a state of sachkhand and ' ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਠਾ' in an instant virus of that beyond box dilemma runs away.   

Akasha jee, when I live and share 'saabat bast' - undiluted inner message' with all of you I really experience the divine within me and realizes I am in love.


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## Sherdil (Aug 7, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I consider myself spiritual, however, to me  spiritual means something different to tripping the light  fantastic.



Exactly. When people use words like  "spiritual" or "I have seen something that cannot be unseen" or "I can't  describe it", then that gets me worried. I have no idea if they are  referring to what is written in gurbani or something else. For all I  know, they could be talking about having conversations with ghosts,  astral projection, recollecting past lives, etc. These all fall under  the category of "spiritual" and they all go beyond the "physical world".  I don't believe that they can't elaborate on their experiences. GGS  contains 1430 pages describing this state of divine bliss and love. If  that is what they are referring to, then there are so many shabadhs they  can reference to drive home their point, like the one Linzer pulled. 

I  was actually hoping someone would pull the few shabadhs that appear  before that. They end in "Nanak bhagta sada vigaas. Sunieh dukh paap ka  naas". Nanak, the devotees forever remain in bliss. Listening, the pain  of their sins is washed away. 

Here is one of them for reference. It appears on page 2 of GGS



> ਸੁਣਿਐ  ਸਿਧ  ਪੀਰ  ਸੁਰਿ  ਨਾਥ  ॥
> सुणिऐ सिध पीर सुरि नाथ ॥
> Suṇi▫ai siḏẖ pīr sur nāth.
> Listening-the Siddhas, the spiritual teachers, the heroic warriors, the yogic masters.
> ...


This  is my whole point of asking the question. Listening to the "celestial  music" brings peace of mind. The devotees remain in bliss. Their guilt  and sorrows are erased. One can even say it is therapeutic, therefore  within the realm of psychology. What else is the realization of  "oneness" with everything supposed to achieve? 

No offense is intended


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 7, 2014)

Fellow spners I think we need to take stock of some basics  as we are all the same, as well as different and at different levels of understanding and other things in life.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji messages connect to us differently and at times dramatically differently. So no one is wrong in describing what they experience momentarily or on a life long basis. That is their relationship. What is wrong about it or right about it none of us arm chair psycho-analysts are equipped to comment upon or pass judgment on.

Perhaps the title of this thread is misleading. I have seen no posts so far that do not think the message in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as foundational spiritual and for many also ways of practical living and myth busting. Could the title be: "Describe how and if you experienced hallucinations, something you swear felt real, etc., that was out of this world. Basically along the lines of extreme love, the raag or rendition of the shabad that made you feel in momentary or everlasting ecstacy". We may all give it different names but many of us have pretty visual personalities and such experiences are not uncommon.

Can we insist based on our experiences visual or other that everyone should have them? Can we insist that visual experiences are essential to Sikhi or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Is it worth the effort to dwell on the subject to teach others or convince others that such experiences are fundamental to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Sikhi? Does all this prove one understands better than the other or has the right way and the others have wrong ways?

The answer for me to all above is   *"**NO"*.

Over time perhaps millions have experienced it like Akasha ji, Luckysing ji, Harry Haller ji, Japjisahib04 ji and so on. So let us move on in a helping, sharing and learning mode rather than insisting mode.

May you experience Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji like no one else before and be able to share.

Sat Sri Akal


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## Admin (Aug 7, 2014)

*This thread is now closed. If you have something on-topic to say, then please start a new thread by quoting this thread, page or post number in first message itself. 

Gurfateh!
*


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