# A Sikh Without His Flowing Hair And Turban



## Admin (Oct 20, 2006)

Seems like people are really insecure about themselves! 

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp...28F%29&sid=  1






"A young Sikh boy gets his hair cut at the local barber in a village near Beas"


One is often told that a Sikh without his flowing hair and turban is like a king without a crown. 

But, across Punjab, and more so in the countryside, young members of the community are giving up the most visible religious symbol of Sikh identity—long hair and the turban. The trend, which has been growing in the last four to five years, has reached "epidemic" proportions and now has the Sikh religious leadership worried. So much so that desperate campaigns have been launched to revive the use of the turban.

When Outlook began examining this trend, Sikh organisations engaged in saving the turban estimated that about 80 per cent of the Sikh youth in rural Punjab have cut their hair and discarded their headgear. An exaggeration, one thought. But president of the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC), the highest decision-making body for the Sikhs, Avtar Singh Makkar, confirms this trend. 

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"With a turban on his head, a Sikh will feel guilty of breaching his faith. Its absence frees him from such qualms." Akal Takht Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti 

He told Outlook: "Yes, it's true that in many places about 80 per cent of Sikh youth have indeed cut their hair. Sadly the 'dastaar bandhi samaagam' (a turban-tying ceremony for young boys), too, has become rare in villages because very few boys of 13 or 14 years of age have long hair."

Does this mean that the day is not far when a Sikh village in Punjab won't have a single turbaned male to show? This is not just in the realm of possibility but an inescapable reality according to a dismayed and rather helpless Sikh leadership.

But why are Sikhs, otherwise very dedicated to their religion, saying goodbye to turbans and going in for haircuts? Scholars say it is a combination of various factors, both social and economic, at play. The most common reason cited is the convenience of not having to go through the elaborate rigmarole of maintaining a beard and tying a turban. Says Baldev Singh, the patriarch of a large family in Adliwal near Amritsar, "Except I and my two brothers, all our sons and grandsons have shorn their hair. 

It does pain me to see my family like this but no one listens to us nowadays." His daughter-in-law Roominder Kaur is quite happy with a clean-shaven son as she doesn't have to go through the tedium of combing and tying his hair each morning.






"The SGPC has given up its traditional role of preserving Sikh values and heritage and is more embroiled in politics." 

Everyone agrees that the turban problem is acute in the villages where the land-owning Jat peasantry resides. One reason, perhaps, is the rural Punjabi youth's overriding desire to go West. *Sikh scholars feel that in the aftermath of 9/11, when Sikhs are being mistaken for Muslims and attacked for sporting a beard and turban, there is a tendency among members of the community to adopt a more assimilative appearance so that they "look like others". It becomes easier to get past immigration.* What a crock of sh*t!!! 

If a person holds these dear to himself, then he will never shed them, but unfortunately there is no one nowadays to teach the youth all this. " 






Ironically, the trend of clean-shaven Sikhs has picked up in Punjab at a time when the community is engaged in an international campaign to create awareness about the Sikh identity and the importance of wearing religious symbols like the turban and kirpan. Following the ban on wearing turbans in French schools in 2004, and also several cases of hate crimes against Sikhs after 9/11, Sikh organisations began a drive to create awareness about the Sikh faith in Europe, US and Australia.

When the French ban was announced, Sikh organisations—political, social and religious—in India and abroad protested. On the urging of the SGPC, PM Manmohan Singh, too, took up the issue with the French government. But as Jaswinder Singh, an SGPC member and president of the Akal Purakh Ki Fauj (an organisation engaged in popularising turbans and long hair in Punjab), points out, "If the French government comes to know of the situation in Punjab now, it will be embarrassing for us. How can we fight for the right to wear long hair and turbans abroad when people are abandoning the same in the home of Sikhism?" 

Is a Sikh without his 'kesh' or long hair a lesser Sikh? In popular parlance, a clean-shaven Sikh is a 'patit' or an apostate. Says Professor Sher Singh of the Institute of Sikh Studies, "Of all the five Ks—'kesh, kada, kirpan, kangha and kachh'—which Guru Gobind Singh had made mandatory for all Sikhs to wear, the 'kesh' comes first and is foremost and indispensable to a Sikh's identity. Without the 'kesh', the other symbols are meaningless." 

In recent years, several organisations have sprung up in Punjab to revive the tradition of keeping long hair and wearing turbans. The 'Kesh Sambhal Prachaar Sanstha' is one such outfit which, among other things, runs two turban-tying schools in Jalandhar and Amritsar, where young Sikhs are taught how to tie a turban. Says the Sanstha secretary, Sukhdev Singh Sandhawalia, "The most common excuse boys give for cutting their hair is that they don't know how to tie a turban." 

Another organisation holds a popular competition to select 'Mr Singh International' which is open only for turbaned Sikhs. Among other things, the contestants have to participate in a round called 'Meri Dastaar, Meri Shaan, Meri Pehchaan' (My turban, my pride, my identity) where they are judged on how well their turbans are tied. The latest champion of the turban and long hair in Punjab is former cricketer and the BJP's Lok Sabha MP from Amritsar, Navjot Singh Sidhu, who held a procession in Amritsar to revive the use of turbans and instil a sense of pride in Punjabi youth in wearing one. Ironically, Sidhu is under flak for trimming his beard and allowing his son to cut his hair





"A typical rural scenario—the patriarch of a large family (in turban) with his sons and grandsons who got their hair cut in Adliwal village near Amritsar"

Why and how did things come to such a pass? Many feel the custodians of the Sikh heritage like the SGPC cannot escape criticism. Says G.S. Lamba, Sikh scholar and editor of Sant Sipahi, a popular Sikh community journal: "The SGPC has abandoned its traditional role of preserving Sikh values and heritage and is more embroiled in politics. When the Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) abdicated its role as a religious party and adopted a secular garb, the SGPC should have taken its religious duties seriously.

But unfortunately it's the other way around. The SGPC has become an organ of the SAD, and has neglected preaching in villages. It's also shameful that the two are projecting a 'patit' like Navjot Singh Sidhu as a role model for the Sikh youth for the coming elections." 

He points to the recent controversy over Harbhajan Singh appearing in an advertisement with his hair open as an example. "This shows the SGPC's double standards. They are picking on Harbhajan Singh just to get some good publicity with the Sikh masses. If they are serious about the issue, they should start by taking action against the families of the SGPC members who have shorn hair and also the clean-shaven cadres of the SAD."

Though Harbhajan Singh apologised to the Sikh clergy for the offending representation in the advertisement, his comment on the matter is telling. "I apologise if I have hurt the feelings of my people, but why should the SGPC compare me with Monty Panesar (English cricketer of Sikh origin who sports a turban and beard) and not Yuvraj Singh and singer Gurdas Mann both of whom have cut their hair?" 

Clearly, the situation has gone beyond hair-splitting as rural Punjab's tryst with the barber keeps growing. The land-owning Jat Sikhs have all but shed the turban, whereas the more conservative trading 'Khatri Sikhs' in urban areas are less inclined towards the new trend. One reason is that most of the Sikh gurus were 'Khatris' or from the trading community which is why this section of Sikhs are more staunch believers. 

But go to rural Punjab and there are some tell-tale indicators of change. Where earlier, the sole barber in a village had to supplement his income by selling sweetmeats, now, most villages have three to four barbers. The feisty land-owning Punjabi Jat farmer has always been known for his enterprise and desire to try new things. True to form, it is he who is leading the 'no turban' trend even though it makes him an apostate in the eyes of his religion.


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## triloruf@yahoo.com (Oct 21, 2006)

Its Disgusting To Hear. This Is A Big Discouragement To We Foreigner Who Embraced Sikhism. The Problem Of The Sikhs Are With The Sikhs Themselves
Here In Lagos Nigeria. Odenary Common Announcement One Hear The Sikhs Announcing It In Punjabi Language. There Is No Respect For Human Dignity As If God And The Masters Will Send A Curse If Simple English Is Spoken.

I Embraced Sikhism Twenty(20) Years Ago Out Of Simple Convictions, And I Keep My Hier And Turban.


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## TanuRani (Oct 22, 2006)

I believe there are various different reasons that are behind the shedding of hair in Sikhs. First and most important one is culture. Everywhere you look you would see men with haircuts...a necessity if one wants to be considered "normal" in public. When sikh (especially men) watch TV, movies, etc. there is no acceptance of long, unshaved hair being accepted and respected. A sikh feels like an "outsider". A lot of times this is the case for those living outside of India. 
In fact, if a sikh guy wants to date...even in india, his turban would make him look like "old fashioned", even though it's about religion, not fashion. And same could be true for a sikh girl...long hair seems boring b/c they are in braid...again "old fashion"...let alone a turban for a girl. 
So if a sikh has the self esteem to accept the "difference" in their appearance and actually show the "public" pride in the religion, then eventually a sikh un-cut hair would be accepted for their identity. Although muslims are discriminated and often related to terrorists(which I believe is entirely wrong...b/c judging one from their looks is wrong), they are still known to follow Islam from their appeareance. So what we want is a sikh who is proud of their un-cut hair because it is part of religion and not a "trend".
But mostly I think Sikhs do not have the confidence to appear like sikhs. Why?? I believe it is all because of the culture that we have been brought up in. I am entirely supporting the entry that Neutral Singh wrote on Jul 12, 2005 about how sikhs follow empty rituals...like getting married in gurdwara...and then partyin drunk...at the reception. 
It's a very challenging situation to handle...b/c keeping hair doesnt make one a sikh...there has to be the love for God...that's the central idea of sikhism...doing things with heart and honesty..and if one says they love God but cut their hair in sikhism....then that doesnt qualify them as sikh. and even if someone keeps their hair...but doesnt have the love for God to follow wat guru granth sahib says....then that is not a sikh either.
So i guess wat i trying to say is....that if one cuts their hair it should be b/c they want to and not cause they have to....(in order to be accepted)...and these days sikh youth are cutting their hair because of fashion and the fact that religion is not the basis of doing things...and when religion is not the most important thing in a household..then cutting hair is a very easy thing to do.


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## sukhz (Oct 22, 2006)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh 
Yes this a painfulll reality, people especially in india who are actually sikhs who are suppose to have kesh and turban are actullay the one who are ignoring the rehat maryada the real code of sikhi, they are cutting shaving hairs,  believe it or not the person who is forcing and showing them the evil way is nowdays residing in every home in india. The person is no body else but yes one and only Indias BOLLYWOOD which runs 24/7 throught india. yes thats true if you walk into a local village in punjab from teenagers to kids everyone is thinking themself amitabh,shrakuh,salman etc. They are not accepting the reality which is coming out from Guru granth sahib ji.


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## Jaspal Singh (Oct 22, 2006)

Problem is with the loose definition of Sikh.

Now a days every one call themself to be sikh whether mona, sharbi etc.

Sikh is who is trying to live as per teachings of Sikh Gurus anf in their image. Keeping of hair is essential part of it.

Any deviation from this leads to one being other than sikh


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## Gurcharan (Oct 24, 2006)

triloruf@yahoo.com said:


> Its Disgusting To Hear. This Is A Big Discouragement To We Foreigner Who Embraced Sikhism. The Problem Of The Sikhs Are With The Sikhs Themselves
> Here In Lagos Nigeria. Odenary Common Announcement One Hear The Sikhs Announcing It In Punjabi Language. There Is No Respect For Human Dignity As If God And The Masters Will Send A Curse If Simple English Is Spoken.
> 
> I Embraced Sikhism Twenty(20) Years Ago Out Of Simple Convictions, And I Keep My Hier And Turban.


Thank you brother. Someone once said, for every Sikh who has given up his turban, another from the West has taken it up. The problem with Sikhs is within the self. All Sikhs are at fault.


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## Gurcharan (Oct 24, 2006)

TanuRani said:


> I believe there are various different reasons that are behind the shedding of hair in Sikhs. First and most important one is culture. Everywhere you look you would see men with haircuts...a necessity if one wants to be considered "normal" in public. When sikh (especially men) watch TV, movies, etc. there is no acceptance of long, unshaved hair being accepted and respected. A sikh feels like an "outsider". A lot of times this is the case for those living outside of India.
> In fact, if a sikh guy wants to date...even in india, his turban would make him look like "old fashioned", even though it's about religion, not fashion. And same could be true for a sikh girl...long hair seems boring b/c they are in braid...again "old fashion"...let alone a turban for a girl.
> So if a sikh has the self esteem to accept the "difference" in their appearance and actually show the "public" pride in the religion, then eventually a sikh un-cut hair would be accepted for their identity. Although muslims are discriminated and often related to terrorists(which I believe is entirely wrong...b/c judging one from their looks is wrong), they are still known to follow Islam from their appeareance. So what we want is a sikh who is proud of their un-cut hair because it is part of religion and not a "trend".
> But mostly I think Sikhs do not have the confidence to appear like sikhs. Why?? I believe it is all because of the culture that we have been brought up in. I am entirely supporting the entry that Neutral Singh wrote on Jul 12, 2005 about how sikhs follow empty rituals...like getting married in gurdwara...and then partyin drunk...at the reception.
> ...


My dear sister, many sikhs have drowned in maya and illusion. The conviction to be a sikh is lost. We blame all, the world(s), 9/11, environment, bollywood, our brethen EXCEPT ourselves. Is something  very wrong with Sikhi or is it us only. It seems that it is easier to come up with excuses to walk down the wrong path than it is to find one simple truth, to tread on the correct path. To all those who tread the path of truth, remain strong. These are testing times for Sikhs and Sikhism.We will ride through this celestial storm and come out stronger. It is a real test for truth.


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## parvinder_s_99 (Oct 25, 2006)

SSA All

Sikhs without hair & turban...!!  

Looks so shameful.. . It is really so frustrating to see the "How entire generation of the punjab sikh youth" has driven away by media, drugs & sikh leaders (religious & political). 

It may be looks odd to some of you..., but we need to go back from where & how.it got started there.

I remember .., during the 1985-1995 period .., punjab sikh use to give excuses..

1) Police tortures  sikhs.., so i removed my hairs.
2) Need to settle in USA/Canada.., i need to be look like them.

So many reasons..

I know..they all were telling lie & till now only faces are changing there.., but the trend is continuing. of course with some new foolish reasons.

These Punjab sikhs ( refer to 1985-95 ) period.., they were referring to the police tortures  .., but we at outside of punjab ( my parents settled in lucknow - 700 Kms from Punjab, India) has really feel that trauma from police, socially boycotts from this dominant hindu society.., rejections at many places, i still remembers.., if i were any crowded place.., every eyes use to like screening me.., all those were always like putting sword in your heart after every now & then. I am sure during those days in punjab.., these guys were handling the militancy & state sponsored militancy., nothing else , but they really cash it & run away from sikh principles. 

Physical appearance & Sikh life
----------------------------------
It is a marriage between guru & sikh. Guru being our husband excepts us to be in that fashion.. which he likes ( same true with a normal husband also). Remember Sikh Life means "Be in normal materialistic life & follow his principles". Once you cut your haris & trim beard.., one shd not have guts to go in front of guru.., but you see.. these hair cut persons in gurudwars.., how shamelessly they comes there & co-relate them to sikhi.

We know that sikh youths are getting good education now, but parents are not educating them..., about our principles, culture, history & our proud place in history. There difficulties in tying turban..., no parents ar listening. Remember previously there were joint families in india & there were lot helping hands were available for teenagers to learn & tying turban. Now this culture is no more, parents are just busy & busy in career & money, so where these teens needs to go, certainly..they are finding it easy "Go to barber shop & finish it off". SO IT'S OUR ELDERS, OUR PARENTS are more responsible for all this.

How to help teens & make them comfortable
-------------------------------------------------

(a)While bringing up the kids.., give them the pride feeling .., when you put 
    your turban on your head. Make sure , parents are celebrating the 
    "Dastarbandhi" , once the teen reaches to 14-15.

(b)Educate them & convenience them .., why hairs & turban are necessary 
    for sikhs. Relate them to our history, let them know importance of hair & 
    turban in our history. Start giving them the books related to our religion 
    from 5-6 yrs. onwards. Remember "tree will be only strong, if the breed is 
    stronger enough. Make a compulsory & minimum rule to go "Gurudwars" on 
    every weekends , with family. If they sit with there our culture & 
    Community.., they will learn more about it.

(c)Make sure that you are teaching them "how to tying turban" . Understand
    "how much turban length" will be enough for him ( taking into 
     consideration his physical structure).

(d)Give him idea about turban colors.., teach him about the turban & other 
    cloths matching. Make sure .., he looks enough SAMRT .., when he put up 
    Turban on his head & goes out ( just need to ensure this 1st 10-15 
    times..., once they face the world with confidence.., then no worries for 
    future...). In this digital age ..there are even "Tuban tying videos" are 
    available on the net, take help of them. 

(e)Tell them the options available to keep the bread set , with the help of 
    gels & Fixsers. Educate them about the time bread need to set down.., 
    once we apply the gels. This will prepare them to understand .., how 
    much time they need to spend in bread setting & turban tying , so that 
    can plan accordingly. Remember in this global world planning for 
    everything is necessary. Once these teens understand, they need just 
    20-25 min extra from there earlier routines.., they will do that.  It is 
    always important.., parents keep on helping them in early stages of 
    turban tying & beard settings.

(f)Be a Role Model to them - There are many sikh personalities you found 
    around in media & daily life. Navjot Singh Sidhu ( the famous cricketer )..., 
    he is too good in tying turbans, looks very smart.., but he trims beard 
    & his own son hasn't keep the hairs. Now where did  he stands. We need 
    to ask him & the others leaders. Religion may be a private matter for 
    him.., but we need to understand..., "The outer world know about a sikh 
    from his physical appearance". If that is no more..., there is no visible 
    sikhy. Another cricketer "Harbhsjan Singh" .., till now.., i never seen him 
    even in a single snap of him in turban ( He is 26+ now ). he trim beards. 
    He has his "Saloon" in Chandigarh.., which has barbers also to cut hairs &
    shave. I don't know.., why he chosen to invest his money in this kind of 
    business. He also needs to be questioned "Guru always said.., hairs are 
    the symbol of human  & life" ( It's our fault ..we relate hair to sikhs.., 
    that's not true ). Just to mention some more .., almost 99% of these 
    punjabi pop singers ..either trim bread or already cut the hairs. You see.., 
    by seeing there video on channels.. youth are also inspired to be like that. 
    I am sure guru maharaj will question them..., once they finish there role in 
    this world.
(f) Engage in discussion with mature persons of other faith & specially with 
    foreigners. Tel them.., about sikh & sikhi. We need to remind ourselves
    Our religion is too young in comparisons of others.., and we all are 
    ambassadors of our religion. It’s or duty to protect it from external 
    damages &  simultaneously we need to spread it. If we don't talk to 
    other faith people & make them understand.., till then they will be always 
    suspicious about us.

I tried to be most polite .., while writing above.., but there are chances that my views may not be acceptable to some of the gursikhs in punjab .., but i am just referring to the "hair-cut waves" of punjab in general. I hope they will forgive me.

Let be always follow sikhi internally & externally & be a good ambassador to our religion.

Waheguru ji da Khalsa , Waheguru jee di fatah


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## max314 (Oct 30, 2006)

It's a lifestyle choice and, as long as it isn't harming anyone else, no-one has the right to ridicule or make snide remarks about people who make that choice.

I see a surprising amount of intolerance coming from a people who originally built their reputation on the back of tolerance and acceptance.

Have you ever thought that it is perhaps this exact kind of scolding and stuck-up attitude towards "how it should be" that is driving people away - if, of course, that _is_ the case.


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## truthseeker (Oct 30, 2006)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

Just this past January, a friend of mine went to india and was really shocked to see the amount of sikhs with cut hair. Upon returning he said that he and his family felt out of place while walking through the streets and being some of the very few with full kes. He thought that being in India, where our Guru's preached, and fought for justice, he would see many people proud to be Sikh, and take treasure in their Kakaars, but was very disappointed and hurt in what he saw and experienced.

Personally it makes me to upset that it has come to this. Bhai Taru Singh Ji would not let his hair be removed from his head, and so his scalp was removed with a chizel, and now we are purposely asking for our hair to be removed.

WHY TRY TO FIT IN WHEN YOU WERE ONLY BORN TO STAND OUT

Bhul chuk maaf karni

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 6, 2006)

there is a difference in sikhism and being Sikh

what it is...?

i leave all you to discover..

peace!!


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## max314 (Nov 6, 2006)

amarsanghera said:


> there is a difference in sikhism and being Sikh
> 
> what it is...?
> 
> ...





I think you're referring to the difference between being a Sikkh and being a Khalsa.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 9, 2006)

no max

i was refering to Religion called sikhism and being a sikh


peace !!


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## Gurcharan (Nov 9, 2006)

Dear Amar Ji,

Pse enlighten us. 
Thank you.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 13, 2006)

veerji

if a mortal could enlighten others..then today there would be all enlightened souls..

i am a seeker as you are..

look for the true essence...within your self...contemplate on the words of SGGS...the truth is inside you

bhul chuk maaf..peace


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## Gurcharan (Nov 14, 2006)

max314 said:


> It's a lifestyle choice and, as long as it isn't harming anyone else, no-one has the right to ridicule or make snide remarks about people who make that choice.
> 
> I see a surprising amount of intolerance coming from a people who originally built their reputation on the back of tolerance and acceptance.
> 
> Have you ever thought that it is perhaps this exact kind of scolding and stuck-up attitude towards "how it should be" that is driving people away - if, of course, that _is_ the case.


Sat Shri Akal Veerji,

You make it look so simplistic. What lifestyle choice are you talking about.
Are you saying that one is to accept and tolerate a wrong even if you know it to be wrong? So what have you learned Max Ji, that if we correct our Sikhs to "how it should be",. then it is wrong. Is that what Sikhi is all about?

God Bless.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 14, 2006)

<<Are you saying that one is to accept and tolerate a wrong even if you know it to be wrong?>>

how do you know it is wrong?

isn't it same like the brahmins defending the janeu ?


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## Gurcharan (Nov 14, 2006)

truthseeker said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> Just this past January, a friend of mine went to india and was really shocked to see the amount of sikhs with cut hair. Upon returning he said that he and his family felt out of place while walking through the streets and being some of the very few with full kes. He thought that being in India, where our Guru's preached, and fought for justice, he would see many people proud to be Sikh, and take treasure in their Kakaars, but was very disappointed and hurt in what he saw and experienced.
> 
> ...


Thank You Veerji Thruthseeker,

I enjoyed reading when you said,
"WHY TRY TO FIT IN WHEN YOU WERE BORN TO STAND OUT". 
Why then,  we still do this?
Are we suffering from an inferiority complex, or are we thinking that the only way to have fun and acceptance is by cutting our hair. We can put blame to many issues for this, but never ourselves.....I wonder why? Have we become weak and brainwashed. Has  trying to fit in become a model for acceptance. These are trying times...I believe in patience with contemplation will resolve this problem.

God Bless.


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## Gurcharan (Nov 14, 2006)

amarsanghera said:


> <<Are you saying that one is to accept and tolerate a wrong even if you know it to be wrong?>>
> 
> how do you know it is wrong?
> 
> isn't it same like the brahmins defending the janeu ?


Dear Veerji,

Contemplate within yourself. The truth is inside you, so is the essence.

God Bless


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 15, 2006)

yes veerji

after much contemplation 

i found this..

that is why asking a question in response to your statement


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## truthseeker (Nov 21, 2006)

Gurcharan said:


> Thank You Veerji Thruthseeker,
> 
> I enjoyed reading when you said,
> "WHY TRY TO FIT IN WHEN YOU WERE BORN TO STAND OUT".
> ...


 
Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

I find that in todays world trying to " fit in" is almost like second nature to us. And yes, maybe by cutting our hair we will be more excepted.. but what is the point? If we can not please our Guru what does it matter what we accomplish in this life time? 
But I dunno, sometimes i think that we should just leave it. If someone does not understand that this Kakaar, this Gift from Akal Purakh is important, then they should not be forced to keep it either right? They will not respect it in any way, shape or form. If hair is just another thing that you happen to have, and dont really see the point of it... then why should they have it. 
I know this may sound odd, coming from an amritdharee sikh, but we have to look at the fact that not all people are as blessed as we are to be as far along the path as others. Some people may not have this understanding.
I guess this is Maya in yet another form, trying to take over us mind, soul, and body. Once that have been overtaken, keeping kes, and following Guru Sahib's teachings will not even be problem, they will become like second nature to us. 
Bhul Chuk maaf karni

( P.S. Gurcharan ji.... im a Singhni :}: )


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 21, 2006)

it is simple

sikhism is a religion

and being sikh is a state of mind.... two totally different concept


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 22, 2006)

<If we can not please our Guru what does it matter what we accomplish in this life time?>

where the bani says so?


also i donot think God is bothered with my cutting hair.... i cut my toe nails also...they bloody keep growing so fast..... if God isn't bothered with that..they why with hair?


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## Gurcharan (Nov 23, 2006)

amarsanghera said:


> it is simple
> 
> sikhism is a religion
> 
> and being sikh is a state of mind.... two totally different concept


Dear Veerji,

What state of mind are you talking about???????

God Bless


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## Gurcharan (Nov 23, 2006)

amarsanghera said:


> <If we can not please our Guru what does it matter what we accomplish in this life time?>
> 
> where the bani says so?
> 
> ...


Dear Veerji,

So you are saying that being a sikh or following Khalsa way of life...keeping the 5 Ks is not important to a sikh? I wonder why then our 10th Guru ask us to keep them.
Your statement is a-typical..why blame yourself when you have the merciful God to blame on.

God Bless


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## Gurcharan (Nov 23, 2006)

truthseeker said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> I find that in todays world trying to " fit in" is almost like second nature to us. And yes, maybe by cutting our hair we will be more excepted.. but what is the point? If we can not please our Guru what does it matter what we accomplish in this life time?
> But I dunno, sometimes i think that we should just leave it. If someone does not understand that this Kakaar, this Gift from Akal Purakh is important, then they should not be forced to keep it either right? They will not respect it in any way, shape or form. If hair is just another thing that you happen to have, and dont really see the point of it... then why should they have it.
> ...


God Bless Thruthseeker,

Let me first apologise about the gender mix. No disrespect  intended. 

 I felt the sad and hands-up tone of your message. Dear Sister, life is full of surprises, don't be dismayed at what you see around. And do not think it is not impt as to what we accomplish in this lifetime.Let me just say that we may forget temporarily what our Guru Ji has said, but Guru Ji will never forsake us or stop loving us.
I bless the day I was born a Sikh.I shall remain a Sikh so long as time remains.I know of no other life than being my Guru Ji's Sikh. I shall remain a Sikh and not remain, if I am not.

God Bless.


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## Veeru (Nov 23, 2006)

I agree with achieving a state of mind. Taking Amrit should help us stay in discipline, which should further help achieve that state. However, even for that, one needs to have the right perception of taking Amrit, which most people appear not to have, the right perception, that it. 

Since I am not at that state of mind, I can't say for sure whether or not taking Amrit is the only way to help us achieve that state. But I am pretty sure Amrit is a way to achieve that state but we need to have the right perception, which appears to have been lost among most Sikhs today. This isn't gurus' fault, nor it is Amrit's fault.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 23, 2006)

<<What state of mind are you talking about???????>>

Guru Nanak has described it quite well in his bani...i am too small a person to try to translate it here... would recommend that you go to the source and find out...

<<So you are saying that being a sikh or following Khalsa way of life...keeping the 5 Ks is not important to a sikh? I wonder why then our 10th Guru ask us to keep them.>>

you are once again confusing between being a sikh and following the Khalsa way of life... two are different... one sets no boundaries to what to do or what not to do...
 other is a perfect example of a religious order...

its a view point really... more i read the bani, more i come to this conclusion... i try to understand from bani and am making my own way...

what is important is the end result dear Gurucharan ji... all paths lead to the same place...

good luck to you on your way...and wish me luck on mine...


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## singh_man (Nov 24, 2006)

I would agree with Veer Amarsanghera ji, following the Khalsa way of life and being a Sikh are 2 slightly different concepts. I am a mona, but I can honestly say that I am more educated, knowledgable, and spiritual with the words of Guru Nanak then some of my fellow kesh-keeping singh friends. Just because you may wear a turban does not give you the immediate status of being closer to God. Again, it's really whats inside that counts. How true, pure and at peace are you with yourself and the world we inhabit.

Great discussion. Peace.


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## Veeru (Nov 24, 2006)

Kabir mann nirmal bhayo, jaise ganga neer, paase laago har phire kahe kabir...

Well that's the state of mind we need to achieve. I agree that nobody really becomes closer to God just because of they follow a religion.

Religions generally make people believe that they are going to reside next to prophet after death if they convert into their religion. Well Sikhi is all about achieving the state of realizing God in this life, not waiting till after death.


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## roopsidhu (Nov 24, 2006)

Well said PCJS
We have to choose one from sikh religion and sikh qoum ( sikh cast)
we are treating the religion like cast . thats the real problem.


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## truthseeker (Nov 24, 2006)

"I agree with achieving a state of mind. Taking Amrit should help us stay in discipline, which should further help achieve that state. However, even for that, one needs to have the right perception of taking Amrit, which most people appear not to have, the right perception, that it."

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

This statement of your PCJS Ji is very true. Many people assume that once you recieve Amrit you instantly become a Sant or something... but thats not true. 

Umm SIngh_man Ji, sorry for my ignorance but i do not understand your statement "...following the Khalsa way of life and being a Sikh are 2 slightly different concepts..." I have always had the understanding that in order to be Sikh one had to follow the teachings of ones Guru, not just the onces that may be easy or convenient, but all of them. 
Just because you may be more knowledgeable, more spiritual than some of your kes dharee friends just shows that you have taking more initiative in making that conection with Guru Sahib, with Waheguru. They may just keep it for the sake of it. 

This brings me to another point, what about Singhs, or Singhnis who keep there hair but have no love for this Kakaar? Is it more right for them to have it and no respect it then not have it at all??

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 25, 2006)

it is  a misconception that..hair is not necessary to be a sikh...where does it say that to be a sikh one must cut hair ?? Bhagat Kabir says..Why go bald...when you have NOT shaved your Mann ( of evil thoughts and deeds)
Cut hair supporters will happily quote Kabir on..keeping long hair doesnt make one holy..BUT forget the above quote. Reality si GURBANI is agaisnt "RITUAL"..its TRUE one cannot be a SIKH just by keeping long hair..OR by Cutting IT..Sikhi is inside...and it is sure EASIER to let the Natural Hair GROW than keep cutting it..and there are way MORE traditions FOR keeping Long Hair (SRM and Rehitnamas)..where NOT even One source exits that says its OK to cut hair and remain a Sikh !!! Ponder over that.

SIKHS are under serious misconception again that removal of turban'hair makes them BLEND IN..they will always REMAIN "COLOURED" to the Goras...so like shaved donkeys they neither remain true donkeys but become mules..NOT a HORSE.
Thirdly I have yet to come across a GORA SIKH who cut his hair !! KUDOS to the CONVERTS..they are better SIKHS than the shaved donkeys trying to be horses..but turn into mules forever....sorry for hard talk..but FACTS are FACTS.
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## singh_man (Nov 25, 2006)

Dear Gyani ji -
Many of the DEVOTED Guru's followers under the Sikhi faith during the time of the Guru;s did NOT live under the rule of keeping hair. This only became a rule with Guru Gobind Singh Ji with the main purpose to maintain an unique identity in very uncertain and scary times of oppression and conversion amongst the Hindus and Muslims. The very loyal followers of Baba Nanak and the other Gurus worshipped the words the Guru's spoke and meditated on prayers and oneness with God. I'm sure hair was not an issue in those times - at least I have not read anything to the contrary.

As for your "misconception point" - I think many Sikhs are under the misconception that a turban wearing Sikh is more holy or spiritually pure than non-turban wearing Sikhs - what a load of crap! I have met many Sardar ji's drinking, eating meat, even those who keep their hair but trim their beards and their wives and daughters have the latest cut hairstyles. Again - look to the INSIDE people - not to the cosmetic EXTERIOR of a person to make your judgements.

As to the "Gora point" - Sikhism is open to ALL people - whatever color. And many of the Gora Sikh's are probably more pure and true to the Bani that apnay Khalsa Sikh's!

Just because you may be Punjabi and brown doesn't necessarily make you a better Sikh.

Respect.


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## Veeru (Nov 25, 2006)

Giyani Ji,

Kabir Sahib, while referring to yogis, also said that it was useless to grow hair. 

What we are talking about here is a spiritual Sikh. This is a fact that a spiritual Sikh can't be better than a spiritually perfected person. Now the question is: does a spiritually perfected person need to grow hair? We don't have the definite answer but it's probably true. 

Now another question: Does keeping hair make one a Sikh? How about characteristics of a Sikh? What characteristics a person must possess in order to be a spiritual Sikh or a spiritually perfected person? Does taking Amrit automatically induce those characterisitcs in a person?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 26, 2006)

a small note....before jumping on the Brahmin-Janeau bandwagon and saying that Janeau and Kakaars are the SAME THING...ponder this.
A Janeau of the Brahmin is CASTE BASED....no matter what "A" does ...IF he is BORN a RAVIDASSI CHAMAAR..he/she will get ONLY the Chamaar Janeau. He can become a Rocket Scientist..the worlds Bill gates..President of USA..to a Brahmin he is just a CHAMAAR. So to all the other "janeaus"..all caste based and obtained by BIRTH...ONLY for that particular caste...

The Kakaars on the other hand are CHOICE...Freedom of Choice...a BORN Chmaar and a Born Brahmin will BOTH get the SAME Punj Kakaars and get to drink from the Same Khande batte dee Pahul..and get the SAME name of SINGH/KAUR.

So a janeau and kakaars can NEVER be the SAME...not by a long long shot.
It is fashionable by thsoe who themselves DONT WANT the Kakars...and so by default try to compare them to Janeau..and say Guru nanak Ji "rejected" the Janeau..so why cant we "reject" the dastaar/kirpan etc. Guru nanak ji was "getting" the "Khatree janeau"....and Guru ji told the Brahmin to get him a janeau that wouldnt break, get dirty, get old etc. Guru gobind Singh ji gave ALL five different castes the Same panj kaakaars !!!..so kakaars are a symbol of what the KHALSA PRINCIPLES stand for..its your choice..to wear or NOT.
Secondly a Janeau was COMPULSORY...Kakars are NOT - you have to AGREE to become Amrtidharee..otherwise a "sikh" is NOT asked to wear them..unlike a janeau..
Thirdly a Janeau carries NO RESPONSIBILITY...its just a sign that the Brahmin has put it for you...whether you ask for it or not.....Kakaars carry a heavy responsibility

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 26, 2006)

This was a very sad article... but someone mentioned something about the 10th Guru asking to keep the 5ks... wouldn't one like to think this over and say the reason for that was that sikhs had no identity. They were mixed with the other religions and needed a different identity that set them apart.. and the 5ks did this. If you call sikhism a modern day religion... then keeping long hair/short hair should not make a difference. Sorry if I said anything wrong... but I do feel that the 5ks were to create a sikh identity because in that point of time it was important for sikhs to have their own identity since sikhism was a new religion and people needed to know the difference between sikhs, muslims and hindus.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 27, 2006)

<<Reality si GURBANI is agaisnt "RITUAL"..its TRUE one cannot be a SIKH just by keeping long hair..OR by Cutting IT..Sikhi is inside...and it is sure EASIER to let the Natural Hair GROW than keep cutting it..and there are way MORE traditions FOR keeping Long Hair (SRM and Rehitnamas)..where NOT even One source exits that says its OK to cut hair and remain a Sikh !!! Ponder over that.
>>

if you have done comparative religious analysis..u will observe...that what is done in say a catholic church is different from an anglican church and is aslo different from mormon church..

they all have different views about christ..

so if we talk abt the "religion" christianity...it is the all the churches and sects... but if we talk abt the "spiritual" message of christ..it never talks of any of the rituals done by either of the churches..

so if you look at the stuff in same way in sikhism...

many sects exist today..

yes..one of them is strongest...we all call it "Khalsa" or "Panth"...so it calls the rest of others a bad...i sense a hint of 16th century struggle between protestants and catholics...

yes it was annointed by 10th Guru himself...but then it has imposed many rehatnamas which are its own development...much like the catholic church...it has  asimilar structure like vatican..

but essence of Guru's message is way beyond each of the sects....it touches the "spiritual" plane..

so i say..

to be a "follower of thought process of Guru Nanak and his Jyot"  , whatever name you may give it...sikh or anything, you need not ascribe to any of the religious orders...read Khalsa, nirankaris, or whoever..
but those who do... Follow the "religious Order"

which in turn connects to the same philosophy..

so i say..

all paths illuminated by prophets lead to same source.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 27, 2006)

i hope i make clear the distinction between "being a sikh" and "following Sikhism as defined"


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 27, 2006)

<<SIKHS are under serious misconception again that removal of turban'hair makes them BLEND IN..they will always REMAIN "COLOURED" to the Goras...so like shaved donkeys they neither remain true donkeys but become mules..NOT a HORSE.>>

veerji..
it is important to rise above the question of becoming horses or mules..

we are here to become Human beings and achieve our spiritual potential...


this comparison of donkeys, mules, horses smacks of arrogance of being better...which is the first impact on of someone when he joins a "religious order" and starts a "religious spiritual quest" based on norms and rules.

the best impact of "religious order" is to give a sense of pride to its members..

its almost like the alpha phi beta brotherhoods...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 27, 2006)

"kakkars" as physical objects are nothing but outer distinction..

to me..they are as good as janneau.....pls note..i say"physical objects"

responsibility doesnot come with wearing "physical objects"

it comes with "self realization and contemplation"


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## singh_man (Nov 27, 2006)

Well said Veer Amarsanghera ji!


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 30, 2006)

How sad!  Haircuts.  Drugs.  Shall we also add thuggery?

If my husband and son had cut their hair and shaved their faces, they would likely have been able to survive Delhi '84.  We could have run and gotten away.  We chose not to, knowing full well what it meant.  This was a family decision; I was part of it.

This 'need'  to fit in seems to me to be sad, weak and disgusting.  Shall I now trade in my kara for a diamond tennis bracelet?  After all, some people I know think a kara is cheap and ugly.  I feel no need to explain to them the real cost and beauty.  

I was always taught that to be a Sikh meant a commitment to be strong and to stand up for what is right and to never, ever give in to injustice - even if that meant to die.

We should ask ourselves why our children are acting so cowardly - let's call it what it is - and do what we can to teach them to be the strong young men and women they should, and can, be.

Please excuse me for speaking in personal terms, but to me, 'I' carries more conviction than 'they.'


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## singh_man (Dec 1, 2006)

How can you equate haircuts with drugs and thuggery. I can point to a few of kesh-keeping singhs guilty of things like alcohol and in some cases even drugs!

I'm struggling to understand the need to "not fit in". You do NOT need to look physically different from the rest of society. You should focus your energies on being pure and in unison with God from the inside first! Seek the truth through your inner being. This enlightenment should heighten your confidence and enable you to do whatever you like in honest and righteous discord.

Distinghuish yourselve through your conviction, your thoughts, your spiritual energy, your intellect and your kindness. Wearing exterior, physical objects does not necessarily equate you to a more "holy" path - judge a person by not what they wear but by their actions and motivations.


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## truthseeker (Dec 1, 2006)

singh_man said:


> judge a person by not what they wear but by their actions and motivations.




Singh_man Ji,
And can you honestly say that you have never judged someone by their outer appearance?
as muich as we say  " do not judge to book by its cover" it is the cover that first grabs our attention is it not? 
Personally for me, wearing kakaars is not just a "physical thing", each and every kakaar reminds me of what it is i am hear to do in this world, whether it be fighting for justice or rememebering that i am the dust of your feet. 
I dont know about you... but manmukhs like me need on going reminders of these things and that is what my kakaars do for me.

bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## sikh78910 (Dec 7, 2006)

the gurus didnt cut their hair so there must be a reason behind not cutting hair- im thinking its to retain energy that u gain when you pray, my head always feels really hot when i do paath. i dont know if its to do with the aura or if its just power that you gain that is talked about in the guru granth sahib but i definitly feel it more as i pray more and more. i heard the kara is also to keep this energy and the wooden comb is to stop static. our religion really has alot to do with this divine energy and the unseen but not many people talk about it. does anyone feel it aswell? i also regularly see a beautiful blue light when i pray and think its probably a presence like a shaheed with me.


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## Lionchild (Dec 8, 2006)

A turbaned man or women who don't know or practise the sikhi way of life, is even worse than someone who doesnt wear it, because the purpose of the image is defeated if their is no substance to the persons spiritual mind.

We have all seen it, someone with a turban in our own community falling into caste, drinking, smoking, or other worse matters. Does that mean everyone who wears a turban is a sikh? Well...

One of the first things anyone new or old to sikhi should learn is that personal knowledge and meditation is first before image.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 10, 2006)

1. None of the GURUS..from Guru nanak ji to Guru Gobind Singh ji cut their Hair. Thats a FACT.
2.None of the other " Sikhs " cut hair...anyone is welcome to cite any reference from any janamsakhi/historical source to prove..say Bhai mardana..or Bhai manjh.or any other Bhai of Guru Ji's time CUT their Hair. It was VOLUNTARY...but everyone followed it !!! There must be a REASON guys ?? what was it ??  open question to hair cutters.
3.To cite long haired Singhs drinking and smoking etc is a totally shitty reasoning...dont we have thousands of "dirty cops"...is there any police dept anywhere that ahs decreed...too many dirty cops..NO MORE POLICE UNIFORMS from now on..all street clothes !!! Does the "responsibility" of a Law Officer coem with his UNIFORM..or from his "heart" ?? Why cant I just wear my STREET CLOTHES and be a GOOD COP ??  From Guru nanak ji to guur teg bahadur ji it was all VOLUNTARY..."home Guards"...Guru Gobind singh ji decided to UNIFORM the KHALSA. ( Any uniformed Khalsa not true to its ideals is a "dirty cop"..as easy as that...find fault elsewhere.
4. anybody know how the SIKHS of say Guru hargobind Ji were differentiated from the Mughal soldiers....how did the SIKHS of Guru gobind singh prior to 1699 differ from the Militia of muslims at Bhanganni, and other Battles ?? How did the two sides know each other at close range hand to hand combat ??
IMHO all SIKHS ahd LONG hair and dastaars..only after 1699 Guru gobind Singh ji made it MANDATORY and  henceforth the SIKHS...took that to mean Preserving their Hair PREFERABLE TO DEATH rather than cut hair. That is why NOT a SINGLE SIKH..man woman or even CHILD cut hair to save LIVES....i doubt every single one was an AMRITDHAREE...but they all were long haired...and preferred DEATH to cutting hair. Not a single account mentions REMOVAL of Kirpan/karra/kachera..etc etc...BUT REMOVAL of HAIR is preferred to DEATH in every case..so whats the "bread" ?? is it just EXTERNAL ?? i dont think so....after all if ti was just external.only a fool would DIE rather than cut hair temporarilya nd live to fight another day... we must be rather "high on self delusion/self hypnosis" to call ourselves "modern and intelligent"..and call those who died rather than cut their hair as "fools who died for EXTERNAL SHOW" ?? give me a break guys...go cut it if thats what you wnat..BUT please dont call it EXTERNAL SHOW !! NO WAY. "Internal contemplation blah blah blah" is a lot of bull as GURBANI gives Solid Proof that even the GREAT GODS like Shivji, Brahma, Ganesh, Krishan, Rishis and Sages and Emperors and Kings..ALL  FAILED agaisnt KAAM, KRODH, LOBH MOH Hnakaar etc....mere humans like you and me delude ourselves IF we claim that we have "conquered"..evils INTERNALLY..while the simple NATURAL ACT of growing hair causes us so much PAIN and SUFFERING !! take a break guys..get  a hold on yourself...SIKHI is Game of LOVE and DEMANDS YOUR HEAD ON YOUR PALM !! Sir dhar gali meri ayo...who can claim he can Give his head..But needs so badly to cut his hair..so "bloody hot man !! I cant stand it..BUT I can Sit on the Hot Plate just like Guru Arjun ?? easy man..my internal is COOL !!???  go kid soem oen else...no offen se to anyone..just my thoughts..
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 10, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das was told by his Punjabi Hindu cuson that he should be Sikh by heart and there is not need for 5Ks or Amritdhair thing.Das use to get rakhi tied from her and beheld her as sister as per Hindu faith.

Das asked her that can a person sleep with the lady physically and and yet with mind remain brother to her?

Gurmat says what is in mind should come on ground.If we are form of Ten Guru,then we should have physical proof.

That sister said that das should have been a lawyer.

Anyway agree to Darcy(lionchild) that people without knowldge of iota of Gurmat,fluting untied bearded,not eating meat,and harping about amrit and rituals realted to Maryada are even worse for Gurmat then those who drink etc. As they do wrong preaching of Gurmat.

May force un Sikh rituals of practicising Sikhs so that they(those who have been bullied) may get fed up of faith and leave it alotagather.

They are main culprit of Apostacy.

Das was fortunate that das ,when came into contact with such guys,had people to guide him correctly and das undid harm before it could have happend to the mind of Das.

On this site itself das got a good guidance from our respected Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji,S.Amarpal Singh Ji(in some thread das started with questions being asked and these tow Sikhs guided das correctly).Das will nenver forget the favor they did for das and will reamin indebted for them for whole life.Another guide who gided das is S. Surjeet Singh Ji of Delhi.

And Das was made libral from fanatic by team of Sanatan Sikhs of UK.

So we need good knowledgeable Sikhs and not the any tom {censored} and harry who is more a Brahmin in guise of Sikhs  .


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## sonykaur (Dec 14, 2006)

thought provoking


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## singh_man (Dec 14, 2006)

Excuse my ignorance as I am a seeker and learner like everyone else - but -  Gyani Ji - is there proof that none of the Guru's cut their hair? Are there specific reasons as to why the hair is not cut - besides identity and devotion?


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## HK_Fateh (Dec 14, 2006)

*The only stand these clean-shavens seem to take on the entire situation is whether or not the Sikhs in full (physical) form living up to the true 'sikhism' by being Sikhs internally too. Dear distanced sisters and brothers, please try and know that the Sikhs with a lot of vices calling for cure are not always called 'complete' sikhs either! But, Sikhsim is all about progressing and grdauating from one level to another. If you continue to cut your hair and shave off beards, you are not even eligible to enter Grade I of Sikhism, for every school (of thought) has a fixed uniform code. No matter if you are an outstanding pupil, if you don't don your assigned uniform, you will still not be liked or accepted by the school or its people. An ideal student needs to be complete in all senses, and only then will he be promoted to a higher level. pls. don't try to bend the school rules, just coz you want to look a part of today's society. This school was built up to produce students different from all, the ones who could lead! And of course, the leaders look different, coz they ARE different from the masses, yet they know how to take along the masses and teach them a thing or two for life!!!!!!! *


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## HK_Fateh (Dec 14, 2006)

> WHY TRY TO FIT IN WHEN YOU WERE ONLY BORN TO STAND OUT


beautiful sentence indeed!


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## Veeru (Dec 14, 2006)

H K Fateh Ji,

If keeping hair was the first grade, what grade of the School, you are talking about, are you in today?

What's the point of standing out? What is that a Sikh supposed to represent while standing out?


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## singh_man (Dec 14, 2006)

Sorry but the school example is a poor one. I can be a pure and honest person and recite the words of Gurbani and still feel complete and at peace with God - even with my shaved head! Understanding the philosophies and messages of our Guru's and respecting our fellow brethren adds more to my "completeness" than does me keeping my hair.


Bhul Chuk Maaf

Just want to explore all angles.


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## KS Singh (Dec 14, 2006)

There's no doubt that there are more sikh children and young men without flowing hair nowadays.  However I predict there will be a new trend where when a sikh male reaches a certain age he will keep uncut hair - this will be the norm.  So the heads/leaders of the males will more often than not have a beard and turban.  I have to say that materialistic people are afraid of growing and looking old however a senoir Amirtdhari Sikh male as the most regal and gracious look I have ever seen when you compare older males - anywhere in the world.

As for the younger Amirtdhari males... all us 'monays' always feel respect for them and know deep down inside that we should be following them.  They are Princes amongst boys and we do respect them, even though we don't always let it be known.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 15, 2006)

Gurfateh

Generaly monas think that being Amrtidhari is impracticle in present day life.It is not so as mnay amritdhairs,who tend to act ritualy do not know much about Gurmat.

Amritdhari is genraly termed as humble gyani type.But fact is that it is not the fault of Mona but those who have made ritualism for Amritdhari as big issue.

Being Amritdhari is only one stage to be Khalsa.And yes Amritdhari can live in any adverse condition and that include suruvival techniques in Amry,where we may have to drink the soup of crow as our meal.


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## HK_Fateh (Dec 15, 2006)

PCJS Ji


> If keeping hair was the first grade, what grade of the School, you are talking about, are you in today?
> 
> What's the point of standing out? What is that a Sikh supposed to represent while standing out?


 
I might not have reached a very high grade by keeping my form unaffected, but I am sure trying to get THERE. As for my grade, I would rather leave the judgement to the respectable and venerable elders of the school rather than me self-judging my level.

When I speak of standing out, I picture the following:
Being a part of today's society, yet having courage to your convitions that make you so 'different'... looking 'different' from them all, yet being the one people would love to get to know more... living by your beliefs with confidence, yet sending the vibes of friendliness and oneness, and most importantly, not feeling intimidated by what 'others' are doing and falling for it by calling it 'my life, my choice!' attitude...developing a persona that oozes confidence, and not shame for looking different.

It is very easy to flow with the current, but the real challange comes when you flow against it and yet come out a winner.




> Sorry but the school example is a poor one.


Sorry Singh Man, for a poor example, but I don't mind any of it as long as I have got my point across!


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## Veeru (Dec 15, 2006)

HK_Fateh said:


> PCJS Ji
> 
> 
> I might not have reached a very high grade by keeping my form unaffected, but I am sure trying to get THERE. As for my grade, I would rather leave the judgement to the respectable and venerable elders of the school rather than me self-judging my level.


 
- Why not leave everybody's judgement upto the highest judge of all? 

Since you claim to know for sure other people's grade in school, you must know what grade you belong in, don't you think? Does it really make sense to tell others that they failed when you have not idea about yourself?




HK_Fateh said:


> When I speak of standing out, I picture the following:
> Being a part of today's society, yet having courage to your convitions that make you so 'different'... looking 'different' from them all, yet being the one people would love to get to know more...


 
Why is it important to look different when you are part of the society? We are recognized by our character not by the look.



HK_Fateh said:


> living by your beliefs with confidence, yet sending the vibes of friendliness and oneness,


 
Why do you think someone with short hair doesn't do this? Maybe your assumption is people cut their for lack of beliefs. That might be true in some cases. But some people object to many things happening among Sikhs today. There are also people who believe that keeping hair has no spiritual value, when there are things like corruption, bigotry and superiority complex are attached. It also lacks logic as well when we say it's OK to kill animals to eat and yet it isn't OK to cut hair. 

So for me, keeping hair would only make sense if I became spiritual enough where I knew that cutting hair would affect me spiritually.



HK_Fateh said:


> and most importantly, not feeling intimidated by what 'others' are doing and falling for it by calling it 'my life, my choice!' attitude


 
Well do you think this is their life and their choice and why do you think they are out there to intimidate you?





HK_Fateh said:


> ...developing a persona that oozes confidence, and not shame for looking different.


 
Once again, there are people who cut hair not because of lack of confidence, instead due to certain beliefs.




HK_Fateh said:


> It is very easy to flow with the current, but the real challange comes when you flow against it and yet come out a winner.


 
That's the challenge we monas are feeling in Sikh community today. We could grow hair and not feel the resistance but who would remind them of what they are doing wrong?




HK_Fateh said:


> Sorry Singh Man, for a poor example, but I don't mind any of it as long as I have got my point across!


 
You may have gotten the point across but were you successful in getting the right point across? The only point crossed my mind is that you are judgemental of others and you don't know where you stand, thus this behaviour goes against spiritual wisdom.


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## HK_Fateh (Dec 17, 2006)

Dear PCJS Ji

fateh!

Well, to all that, let me say this spiritually unwise and overjudgemental in nature girl didn't want to blow her own trumpet, nor did she want to leave a message of 'either you live as a Sikh, or you don't live at all!'. I wait for a day when I become wise enough to convince the world of why all that Sikh's code and conduct say is not baseless or out-of-times. I seek Waheguru's blessings for that. 

For now, all I can say is 99% of those who cut their hair etc. do that due to lack of confidence in their looks (ur reason cud b different, as an exception), and then start digging out thousands other justifications for their doing. This is not only going against spiritual wisdom, but also against basic moral ethics that a person of any religion(or not) is expected to follow any which day.


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## Veeru (Dec 17, 2006)

HK_Fateh said:


> Dear PCJS Ji
> 
> fateh!
> 
> ...


 
Cutting hair is nothing compared to unethical behaviour of religious hardliners. If anything, cutting hair is simply between God and the individual. Even if cutting hair is wrong, at least the person who cuts his/her hair is doing it him/herself unlike religious fanatics who go around and do wrong to others. Cutting someone's own hair is nothing compared to religious fanatics' behaviour towards others. 

It's kinda ironic that the goal of a person following a religion is usually to realize God and yet nobody has ever realized God following a religion. That's because religion doesn't make anybody spiritual and one can realize God only by being spiritual, not religious. No spiritually wise person of any religion other Guru Gobind Singh Ji ever even mentioned cutting hair. So it couldn't be unethical, even as per other religions' guidelines...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 17, 2006)

<That's because religion doesn't make anybody spiritual and one can realize God only by being spiritual, not religious>

religion is the opium for masses..

it gives illusions of inclusivity and support...

for a spiritual person, there is no inclusion or exclusion

that is why sometimes i pause before filling the space for providing one's religion 

there is no option for "Humanitarian Spiritualism".. which is the essence of Sikh path.


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## muneet (Dec 21, 2006)

Why do I keep my hair/
Because when the tenth guru's dad was lying in Chandni Chowk, executed by Aurungzeb, mona/ sehajdari/ modern/ pseudo/ assimilated sikhs stood and saw but none had the courage to become the next. When Rangreta (Guru ka Beta) reached Anandpur Sahib with Guru TegBahadur's head hidden in the folds of his clothes and when Guru Gobind learnt of the disposal of the body (rest part) by the sikh trader Lakhi Shah Vanjaara, he decreed hereinafter a sikh will not be able to hide wherever he is - whether it is a good deed or a bad one he does- people will know a sikh has done it. He will not be able to hide his cowardice! So he gave this identity. The kara also reminds us of our enslavement to Guru's teachings. That is when Amrit Chhakna ceremony was carried out and sheep became lions -!!
Remember that shameful day in Delhi when no one stepped forward to speak up for the Ninth gurus dishonored remains. ( Needs self respect!)
Muneet


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## kaur-1 (Dec 29, 2006)

muneet said:


> Why do I keep my hair/
> Because when the tenth guru's dad was lying in Chandni Chowk, executed by Aurungzeb, mona/ sehajdari/ modern/ pseudo/ assimilated sikhs stood and saw but none had the courage to become the next. When Rangreta (Guru ka Beta) reached Anandpur Sahib with Guru TegBahadur's head hidden in the folds of his clothes and when Guru Gobind learnt of the disposal of the body (rest part) by the sikh trader Lakhi Shah Vanjaara, he decreed hereinafter a sikh will not be able to hide wherever he is - whether it is a good deed or a bad one he does- people will know a sikh has done it. He will not be able to hide his cowardice! So he gave this identity. The kara also reminds us of our enslavement to Guru's teachings. That is when Amrit Chhakna ceremony was carried out and sheep became lions -!!
> Remember that shameful day in Delhi when no one stepped forward to speak up for the Ninth gurus dishonored remains. ( Needs self respect!)
> Muneet



Waheguroo.


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## gurus_princess (Jan 22, 2007)

> Origionally posted by *truthseeker*
> 
> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> ...


 

I agree with 100%.

My family and I recently went to India and we were in the same situation.


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## gursikh (Jan 24, 2007)

Simple having hair and turban is not sikhism...
sikhism is following the words of sikh guru's...... all the 10 guru's explained time and again.. dont imitate us.. do what we tell u to do....

not keeoing hair or turban r not so big issues... bcz hairs can grow again... 
but the most imprtant thing is following the Gurubani and correct gurubani.. rather than becoming fanatics...


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## badmash (Jan 27, 2007)

I do not have kes.
But if anyone thinks that loss of kes by sikhs does not hurt sikhism, they are fools.
If all sikhs cut their hair, we are merely an absorbed subsect of Hinduism. While we are that anyway, the appearance of the sikh is what has stood him apart for many centuries. People should be free to do what they choose to do. Keeping hair is no easy thing in the climate of India and punjab. It is always easy to judge others too. But make no doubt, in the long run, people amalgamate with those who look like them. In the case of sikhs, we have only gone downhill. Since partition, our respect, dignity, place in Indian and world society, and indeed in our own eyes has seen significant deterioration. In my opinion, the vast cesspool of India has made us much like the rest of the gutter offal (inroads of modern TV, entertainment and migrant labor has made us weak, fat, stupid, ignorant, lazy and namak haram). One wonders if we would have fared better culturally (while less so economically) under a larger Pakistan. In latter scenario we probably would still be fielding olympians rather than selling our souls for money and emigration opportunity.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 4, 2007)

> His daughter-in-law Roominder Kaur is quite happy with a clean-shaven son as she doesn't have to go through the tedium of combing and tying his hair each morning.


 
I read this thread when it was first posted, but I haven't been able to get this statement out of my mind. 



> The *tedium* of combing and tying his hair each morning.


 
When my son was a little boy, this was my favourite time of day.  He would sit and tell me everything that was on his mind - and kids really do have a lot on their minds, anyone with a five-year old should take the time to listen.  I was really very sad when he didn't need this any more because it produced a real closeness and bonding between us.  Tedium?  I don't think so.


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## Soulful_Sardarni (Feb 19, 2007)

Sat Sri Akal,

I am really surprised to see how sikhs are getting ritualistic. Guru Nanak Dev ji preached to shed all our rituals and see what we are doing. We have not fully shed those rituals and on top of that we have adopted new rituals. Why so? I am not against kesh, I am against making it a ritual. It should be a personal choice and when we say that even non-sikhs can seek god or salvation then and there are no castes and creed then how can we call people of our community "patit" just because they had hair-cuts.

Please explain! I am confused with all these contradicting statements made by Sikhs all the time.

Regards.........


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## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 19, 2007)

<<when we say that even non-sikhs can seek god or salvation then and there are no castes and creed then how can we call people of our community "patit" just because they had hair-cuts>>

thank you sardarni ji

a very nice observation


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 19, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> <<when we say that even non-sikhs can seek god or salvation then and there are no castes and creed then how can we call people of our community "patit" just because they had hair-cuts>>
> 
> thank you sardarni ji
> 
> a very nice observation


 
Totally wrong.

Seeking god or salvation blah blah blah has NOTHING to do with PATITS.
A Hindu is NOT a PATIT..neither is a Chinese Buddhist, President Bush, or .... Osama Bin laden..or Kofi Annan.....ONLY an AMRITDHAREE who cuts his HAIR is a PATIT. ALL the SIX BILLION people of thsi world can cut their Hair...foreskins..and whatever else they wnat..and still SEEK " god/kalimata/jesus/etc etc etc etc....BUT nay AMRITDHAREE who cuts his/her hair..automatically becoems a PATIT..but he/she can still go on "seeking" GOD...whether he FINDS GOD or not...aha..thats the real question..and OBSERVATION Sardarni ji.  Anyone who doesnt want to be  aptit..has two choices..DONT take Amrti..or DONT cut your hair. No body is Forcing ether choice on YOU.

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 19, 2007)

can't agree more gyani ji

you have hit the nail right on the head..atleast for your initial part...

Khalsa is an exclusive brotherhood/sisterhood... respected...i have utmost respect for all who are members of the brotherhood/sisterhood..and believe that whosoever accepts a brotherhood/sisterhood must abide by rules laid down


<<Anyone who doesnt want to be aptit..has two choices..DONT take Amrti..or DONT cut your hair>>

so you also come back to same square saying that there are two options

take Amrit and follow rules of brotherhood - non patit
take amrit , not follow rules - patit

but there could be other cases -

could you explain please?

donot take amrit or follow rules of brotherhood, but follow principles of sikhi - ????

donot take amrit or follow rules, also donot follow principles of sikhi - ????

take amrit, follow rules of brotherhood, but donot follow principles of sikhi - ???


i would like to reiterate my understaning which i have made clear in my previous posts -

taking amrit is acceptance to the khalsa brother hood... it is NOT the ONLY path of Sikhi or the certificate of sikhi

sikhi or sikh philosophy is what is the message of SGGS


bhul chuk maaf and apologies for harsh words if any


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## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 19, 2007)

oh

and forgot to add further....

how does any one check if the other person is sikh ?


who can make the yardstick?

who can set standards?

is sikhi limited to some people?

-------

now repeat same questions for Khalsa

you will be able to answer all questions..

but not for Sikhi

why ???

its a million $ qn


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## kds1980 (Feb 19, 2007)

today in the afternoon i was just thinking that amarsanghera hasn't posted from many days
and today you are back on site.anyway good to see you back.


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## Hardas Singh (Feb 19, 2007)

I learned about Sikhism about 2 years ago when i met this Punjabi girl who is a proud Sikh and since then we have become the closest of friends, she has become my sister to me... I was raised in a strong christian family but i felt that christainity wasn't the right path so i searched and when i learned of Sikhism i thought it was cool, but it wasn't until 2 years later that i decided to become a Sikh, I have read a lot of stuff about Sikhism and studied the scrptures of the SGGS but i still consider myself very new to Sikhism since i converted recently... honestly i didn't understand how sad it is before i became a Sikh that Sikhs are cutting their hair, but now that i'm a Sikh i feel it is impossible to not feel a part of the Punjabi culture even though i'm not Punjabi, and plan to not cut my hair as soon as i leave home (my parents would never approve of me being a Sikh) even though i consider myself to be a Sikh and i believe you are still a Sikh whether or not you cut your hair as long as you believe the Gurus, but i believe it is still sad because you are blatantly disobeying God, how can kesh ever be old fashioned? some of the Gurus were martyrs... to say kesh is old fashioned is to say that God is old fashioned and no longer neccesary, and anyone who believes God to be unneccesary is an idiot... are there not any more Sikhs who would be willing to be martyred for their faith? and another thing is fashion eternal? no, of course notmaterial things are nice to have but they will become dust and go away, it's ok to have nice things but at what cost? are you so attached to your material possesions that you will disobey God and then expect hm to remember you? please correct me if i'm wrong for i am young in my understanding but when i decided to become a Sikh i was serious about my commitment, i'm willing to die and be persecuted for my faith, (i prasy God will give me the strength to do that bravely praising God with my last breath, leaving behind me not just blood and a body but a message of the true God) if Sikhs want fashion that is ok, they can still look fashionable while keeping kesh and turban... i believe we shouldn't force our children to be Sikhs but while they are young we must train them and teach them the right way, and take them to the gurdwara, and when they are old enough to make there own desicions they will not turn away from God...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 28, 2007)

> Totally wrong. Seeking god or salvation blah blah blah has NOTHING to do with PATITS. A Hindu is NOT a PATIT..neither is a Chinese Buddhist, President Bush, or .... Osama Bin laden..or Kofi Annan.....ONLY an AMRITDHAREE who cuts his HAIR is a PATIT. ALL the SIX BILLION people of thsi world can cut their Hair...foreskins..and whatever else they wnat..and still SEEK "god/kalimata/jesus/etc etc etc etc.... BUT nay AMRITDHAREE who cuts his/her hair..automatically becoems a PATIT..but he/she can still go on "seeking" GOD...whether he FINDS GOD or not...aha..thats the real question..and OBSERVATION Sardarni ji. Anyone who doesnt want to be aptit..has two choices..DONT take Amrti..or DONT cut your hair. No body is Forcing ether choice on YOU. ~Gyani jarnail Singh


*This is why the distinction between kes and keski as kakkar is so important*.


Because people mistake that kes is something you have to keep only if you are amrit chukk. All the kakkars are something worn on the body, they have a significance to the body. If you are amritdhari, they should not be removed. Yet, if I am replacing a kara, I take off my kara (mine is stuck on actually, but for example). *I can take off my kara, but I can't take off my hand.*

If I go to an airport, I must remove kirpan due to security or I can't travel. I can take off my kirpan, but I don't take off Guruji's kirpa of my right to defend against injustice. If I take off any kakkars, (while amritdhari shouldn't) this alone doesn't break my amrit. It may be a mistake, but it isn't bujjar kurehit. *If I remove keski to do isnaan, I am not taking off my hairs.*

*When someone born a Sikh removes kes, whether they are amritdhari or not, they break with Guruji*. How can it be, now after all these generations of Sikhi, and all these shaheeds died instead of renouncing Sikhi by giving up kes, that suddenly our kids can just go cutting?

What importance is the hair if you are uncut or if you cut? *If hair has only religious significance, why keep? These mistakes are why the youth think keeping kes is old-fashioned.* They know you can still be a nice person without kes. And they see hairs having no purpose other than appearance. So, it is merely fashion statement. To believe you can alter the body with circumcision, body modification piercings, tatooing, and shorn kes...only later to decide if you want to become amritdhari...it's never going to happen like that. 

*Cutting kes crosses a spiritual line for a Sikh*. What is the function and purpose of hair? In modern society, doctors and scientists say it is a useless appendage. Cut, style, bleach, dye, curl, whatever. Makes no difference. And young people think they are so modern, so sharp believing this. They wanna be like everybody else to fit in. But is society right? Is kes a useless appendage? If so, then it is only a religious decoration and doesn't matter if you cut.

Actually hair has an intimate relationship to the spine and brain as energetic spiritual centers of the body. On a subtle level, the hairs, particularly of the head are like an antenna which picks up electrical-magnetic current. *Hair can be charged.* This is why, in windy weather or with balloons, or near electric current, the hairs get charge and stand on end.












*If you are a Sikh, the first fundamental of being a Sikh is don't cut the hairs*. That distinguishes us from all others. *It is a bond between us and our Satguru.* The purpose of the hairs is, as Sikhs, we are meant to jap Naam. Japping Naam creates a vibration that has an electrical-magnetic current on a subtle level. *And we are supposed to charge our bodies with this current of Naam*, to lift our vibration as part of becoming Gurmukh, or jeevan-mukt. We raise ourselves energetically to receive the blessings of Guruji.

*Everything we are doing in Sikhi has a purpose*. We tie the kes in a jura. You can't tie a jura if you have cut off your kes. A sikh without a jura, a rishi knot is missing something fundamental to spiritual practice. *The jura covers the dasam duar, the tenth gate, the opening at the crown of the head*. It is an energetic center of the body. It is the practice of a Sikh to tie hair here, in this way. And the purpose is to put spiritual vibration of Shabad Gurbani and Naam into the hairs, and then wrap it over the spiritual opening to protect the thoughts of the mind and lift the whole atma to Waheguru. 

*This is why keski, instead of kes as a kakkar is so important.* *Because girls as well as boys have this same spiritual physiology.* Girls also have a dasam duar, a spiritual opening, and ability to reach high spiritual states and vibrational level. Yet, modernly, Sikh girls don't even wear a jura. It's a choice, like a fashion statement. Because they don't know the spiritual purpose of keeping kes is to be a sant-sipahi. *No soldier is ready for battle with long hairs trailing down which can be pulled. And no Sikh sant cuts off his spiritual-vibrational connection with his Guru.* So we have all these things. Sikh girls only keep hairs covered in Gurudwara. And boys are cutting and only wear kara for decoration. The religion has become symbolic only. The significance of Sikhi as an intense spiritual practice has been lost. Keski and dastaar is your crown. It insulates the spiritual Naam currents in the kes and uplifts your whole jeevan.

If you cut hairs, that's it. You've lost Sikhi. You are only name of Sikh. The biggest khanda and all the bhangra in the world won't bring it back. But if you want to be a Sikh, become a disciple of the Guru. Do ardas for Gursikhi, ask forgiveness of the sangat, and *stop cutting*. Then be a Sikh, say your nitenam, keep amrit vela, simran, do seva, give dasvandh. This life is passing away quickly. Why waste your precious time clinging to fake things that get you shipwrecked like a bhoot to maya? Cling to Guruji who loves you, who has the power to carry you safely across the ocean of suffering. 




*Bhai Taru Singh* chose shaheedi to keep his hairs because he was a Sikh of the Guru. His spiritual connection to Guruji was more important then losing life itself. Any enemy can physically crush this body, but only the Sikh has the choice to let go of his Guru. That is the same as losing his religion. 



> Hukamnama written by Sri Gobind Singh ji:
> "Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair; Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna Guru kee rahat rakhnee Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.
> Patshahi Dasvi Jeth 26, Samat 1756
> 
> ...


 

bhul chuk maaf karni ji


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 28, 2007)

One other thing about these popular hair cuts and new fashion statement.

Can anyone forget the impunity that transpired since 1984 as if it had no effect on the psyche of Punjab? For 20 years, in the name of combating militancy, India's criminal Police forces have brutalized Sikhs. Thousands with Sikh appearance were arrested, illegally detained, tortured, humiliated, killed, and anonymosly cremated on the merest suspicion of being a militant, a relative or remotest acquaintance of suspected militants. An entire generation of keshdhari youths has already been destroyed.

*The political amnesia and collective denial in India today hides a reason why Sikh appearance became so unpopular in the Punjab.*








*Photos from the Khalra collection.*



> *"Please give me a small part within human rights."*​~Shaheed Jaswant Singh Khalra​


<B>





> *"When we made this request [to the High Court], that we don't need anything, but just tell us which homes precious diamond you burned in which cremation ground and when."*​*
> 
> 
> ~Shaheed Jaswant Singh Khalra​</B>*



​


> Eleven years ago, on September 6, 1995, the Punjab police abducted, tortured, and murdered human rights defender Jaswant Singh Khalra because he exposed the disappearances and killings of thousands of Sikhs by the Punjab police. In his last speech made to a Canadian audience, released today with subtitles by Ensaaf, Jaswant Singh Khalra discusses his investigations into the disappearances and his readiness to die to expose the truth about these crimes.
> 
> Ensaaf | Khalra's Last International Speech Highlights Mass Crimes of KPS Gill


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## badmash (Mar 30, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> oh
> 
> and forgot to add further....
> 
> ...



I think:

a) be happy first that people claim to be Sikh
b) be surprised if they are proud to be sikh
c) be more surprised (in the west) if they are young and can speak punjabi
d) remember the more one questions the nitty gritty, the details, do not lose site of the larger looming question: ethnic and cultural identity loss and absorption by hinduism, a process actively pursued by all in India, on both sides.


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## badmash (Mar 30, 2007)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> One other thing about these popular hair cuts and new fashion statement.
> 
> Can anyone forget the impunity that transpired since 1984 as if it had no effect on the psyche of Punjab? For 20 years, in the name of combating militancy, India's criminal Police forces have brutalized Sikhs. Thousands with Sikh appearance were arrested, illegally detained, tortured, humiliated, killed, and anonymosly cremated on the merest suspicion of being a militant, a relative or remotest acquaintance of suspected militants. An entire generation of keshdhari youths has already been destroyed.



Absolutely. The plight of a secular, brave, hard working community against the antipathy of a billion strong majority is clear to see. And the numbers above are not thousands, they are hundreds of thousands. Just remember that on June 6, 1984 not only Amritsar but all major gurudwaras in Punjab were attacked. Over time, best and bravest sikhs were killed off, and the remainder have given in. Lakshmi, money, greed and prosperity along with our own lack of spiritual, religious and linguistic backbone has killed us. We have become like our overlords, the hindus, greedy, fat and corrupt. And sadly enough, this path has been greased by all our leaders and politicians, and no single man of virtue or integrity has stood up to really try to stop it. What could be achieved in 300 years, has been undone in 25 years. So be it. I say all of us without hair go back and call ourselves by our traditional names, like Gopi Chand, Mool Chand, and the like.


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## rooh (Apr 5, 2007)

I agree Max314. Amazing to read such carping remarks. The gurus did not judge on the basis of our physical appearance. They accepted everyone who came to them. Who are we to judge others and say that someone who cuts their hair is not sikh and someone who has a turban is a Sikh. In my mind, a true SiKh is one who does not judge but sees that divine spark in everyone and since many of us have not attained this insight, we should first take a good look at ourselves and question whether we are truly the Sikhs that we purport to be. Have we really imbibed the real essence of what it means to be Sikh? I think that many of us, will be found lacking. Most crucially, God's relationship with us is nothing to do with our physical state, but more to do with our inner state of being. But as we cannot ascendto the heights of the Gurus, we bring them down to our limited and constricted perspectives.


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## rooh (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Who are we to judge?*

I agree with Max314. Amazing to read such carping remarks. The gurus did not judge on the basis of our physical appearance. They accepted everyone who came to them. Who are we to judge others and say that someone who cuts their hair is not sikh and someone who has a turban is a Sikh. In my mind, a true SiKh is one who does not judge but sees that divine spark in everyone and since many of us have not attained this insight, we should first take a good look at ourselves and question whether we are truly the Sikhs that we purport to be. Have we really imbibed the real essence of what it means to be Sikh? I think that many of us, will be found lacking. Most crucially, God's relationship with us is nothing to do with our physical state, but more to do with our inner state of being. But as we cannot ascendto the heights of the Gurus, we bring them down to our limited and constricted perspectives.


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## rosethorne (Apr 9, 2007)

Dear Khalsa Ji, That is a real fact that If a student don't get good marks in class, the main cause willbe not understanding  the teacher's words. Like that we are defining the God's will as we want, the main cause we don't understand our Guru's words. God is not stopping us to do the bad or even ugly things but He is always there to punish on that doings. Every brain is in Man's own control, God has given independence to every person to think as he can, do as he can. When God has given us the birth in a Gursikh family then can anybody tell me that If we cut our hair is not a bad thing or God Himself comes to them to say it is Bad. God is not at my service or to anyother. But when we respect our God or Guru then we must remain in shape also.To meet god you need to be in shape. Thats Because God can't stop us He has gone down to your Employee. Your employee or your costomer is more important to you than God. Why we want to cut our hairs because for the good looks only, and as Rooh said God's relationship with us is nothing to do with our physical state, but more to do with our inner state of being. But what will you in your inner state of being when if you are ditching at your outer. God surely have the clue but the people don't have. To make ourself satified we make these kind of remarks. But surely Rooh knows about his/her own inner state of mind. I need not to say anything more.

God will help us all.


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## Lee (Apr 13, 2007)

rosethorne said:


> Dear Khalsa Ji, That is a real fact that If a student don't get good marks in class, the main cause willbe not understanding  the teacher's words. Like that we are defining the God's will as we want, the main cause we don't understand our Guru's words. God is not stopping us to do the bad or even ugly things but He is always there to punish on that doings. Every brain is in Man's own control, God has given independence to every person to think as he can, do as he can. When God has given us the birth in a Gursikh family then can anybody tell me that If we cut our hair is not a bad thing or God Himself comes to them to say it is Bad. God is not at my service or to anyother. But when we respect our God or Guru then we must remain in shape also.To meet god you need to be in shape. Thats Because God can't stop us He has gone down to your Employee. Your employee or your costomer is more important to you than God. Why we want to cut our hairs because for the good looks only, and as Rooh said God's relationship with us is nothing to do with our physical state, but more to do with our inner state of being. But what will you in your inner state of being when if you are ditching at your outer. God surely have the clue but the people don't have. To make ourself satified we make these kind of remarks. But surely Rooh knows about his/her own inner state of mind. I need not to say anything more.
> 
> God will help us all.





Rosethorn Ji,

I agree with you.  There are many arguments about hair, wether it is okay to cut, wether only the Khalsa need keep the 5 k's, etc...  In reality though these arguments come from the mouth of man.  The Sikhi ideal is to never forget God, and in doing this, God makes one aware of what one should and should not do.

In the first instance we should follow to the letter what our Guru Ji says, and in times where we cannot desirn what this is, or where differant interpretations are to found, then we must turn towards God, and take God's hukamen.

However we are all differant people, and in reality the way of a Sikh is a hard way and not many of us can see God, so we will get things wrong; in these case then it bodes us well to give each other the freedom to reach for God at our own pace.


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## BhagatSingh (May 25, 2007)

Someone mentioned about not being a fanatic...
Sikh fanatism is actually better than fanatism in any other religion. A sikh fanatic is probably a better sikh. 

Fateh


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## agampreet singh (May 25, 2007)

What Do You Want Follow Marayada, Gurus Denounced That God Cannot Be Found Theough Going To Jungles Or Leaving Up Everything In The Main By Following Rules. Why Do You Want Follow Rules , How Is The Discovery Of God If It Exists Depend On Whether You Have Hair Or Not, While It Certainly Had Nothing To Do With Finding God It Has Something To Do With Keeping The Sikh Tradtion Alive . Then Why Dont You Admit That That Is The Main Pupose Rather Than Finding Or Expriencing The Ultimate

Why Do You Think That God Is Something Up There Sitting On A Chair Who Is Control Freakand Punishes Us When We Do Bad Things. Why Are Trying To Categorise The Ultimate(there Is Nothing We Can Address That Being By) Into These Narrow Definitions Of Yours. What Is This Argument That Is A Child Is Born Into Sikh Family Cutting His Hair Is Bad. What Is Bad And What Is Right Is All Relative And Subjective So Dont Bring God Under This Denomination.

So Your Doing It Becouse Of What Happened And Becouse Of Guruji. It Means That Your Beliefs Second Hand , Nothing You Beliehf Or Do Is Yours ,

You Are Not Doing It Becousee It Is The Thing To Do , You Are Doing It For Someone's Sake That Makes It Impure Untill You Realise It Yourself There Is No Use


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 30, 2007)

< sRI vwihgurU jI kI Pqih ] 
sRi muKvwk pwiqswhI 1oooooo0 ]
inswin isKI eIN pMj hriP Asq kwP ]
hrigj nw bwsd eIN pMj muAwP ] 1]
kVw kwrdo k`C kMGy ibdW ]
iblw kys hyc Asq jumly insW ] 2]
hrP hkwieq Asq AjI pMj kwP]
ibdw nMd bwvr n goXm iKlwP ] 3]
hu`kw hjwmq hlwlo hrwm ]
bwrIsy ihnw krd rU isXw Pwm ] 4] 1]
(AsPokt sÍYXy, sRI dsm gRMQ)

The following five K's are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H's which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H's. Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly forbidden. (Sri Dasam Granth)
---------------------------------------------------------------

dwVHw muC isr kys bnweI ] hY ieh idRVH ijh pRBU rzweI ] myt rzweI ju sIs muMfwvY ] khu qy jg kYsy hir pwvY ]80]
dh*aa*rrh*aa* m*u*shh s*i*r k*ae*s ban*aa**ee* || h*ai* e*i*h dhr*i*rrh j*i*h prabh*oo* raz*aa**ee* || m*ae*tt raz*aa**ee* j s*ee*s m*u*(n)dd*aa*v*ai* || kah*u* th*ae* jag k*ai*s*ae* har p*aa*v*ai* ||80||
The hair moustache and beard are created within God's order. How can those who violate their natural form by cutting their hair ever be accepted by the Lord?.

Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh
--------------------------
sy dwVIAW scIAw ij gur crnI lgMin@ ] ....muK scy scu dwVIAw scu bolih scu kmwih ]
s*ae* dh*aa*rr*ee*a*aa(n)* sach*ee**aa* j g*u*r charan*ee* laga(n)n*i*h || aaaam*u*kh sach*ae* sach dh*aa*rr*ee**aa* sach b*o*leh*i* sach kam*aa*h*i* ||
Those beards are true, which brush the feet of the True Guru... True are the faces and true are the beards, of those who speak the Truth and live the Truth.

Page 1413 Guru Amar Daas Jee Salok
-----------------------------------
"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair; Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna Guru kee rahat rakhnee Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.
Patshahi Dasvi Jeth 26, Samat 1756


(To the entire sangat at Kabul. The Guru will protect the Sangat, I am pleased with you all. You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds. Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru, Accept the use of shorts and a sword. Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist, Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day. Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat, Do not use tobacco in any form, Have no connection with those who kill their daughters Or permit the cutting of their children's hair. Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults) Recite the Guru's hymns Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord", Follow the Sikh code of discipline I give the entire sangat my blessing)
Signature of 10th Guru Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami (23rd May 1699 A.D)

Guru Gobind Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## simpy (May 31, 2007)

agampreet singh said:


> What Do You Want Follow Marayada, Gurus Denounced That God Cannot Be Found Theough Going To Jungles Or Leaving Up Everything In The Main By Following Rules. Why Do You Want Follow Rules , How Is The Discovery Of God If It Exists Depend On Whether You Have Hair Or Not, While It Certainly Had Nothing To Do With Finding God It Has Something To Do With Keeping The Sikh Tradtion Alive . Then Why Dont You Admit That That Is The Main Pupose Rather Than Finding Or Expriencing The Ultimate
> 
> Why Do You Think That God Is Something Up There Sitting On A Chair Who Is Control Freakand Punishes Us When We Do Bad Things. Why Are Trying To Categorise The Ultimate(there Is Nothing We Can Address That Being By) Into These Narrow Definitions Of Yours. What Is This Argument That Is A Child Is Born Into Sikh Family Cutting His Hair Is Bad. What Is Bad And What Is Right Is All Relative And Subjective So Dont Bring God Under This Denomination.
> 
> ...


 
*Respected Agampreet Singh Ji,*

*Rules are not followed for the sake of following them- there is always something behind it- WHY DO YOU STOP AT THE RED LIGHT ON A CROSSING??????*
*try all the time driving on the road without following driving rules- and tell us how long you survive :hmm:*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## agampreet singh (May 31, 2007)

i think you didn't get me properly . by following rules you must inevitably lose the real purpose. you tell me what is the relation between self knowledge and following rules be it sikhi rules or shriah. and if the rules helped to reach us somewhere then why every religion ,section, sub-section and even individuals have their own se of rules.  rules only serve to save the particular religion and help it in keeping its identity distinct.these rules keep you clinging to your particular isolated section or religion. if a person is realy on the path to self knowledge or whatever it's called finding god or moksha or whatever, then why should he be bound by anything .


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## simpy (May 31, 2007)

*Respected Agampreet Singh Ji,*


*if you are so concerned about only ' finding god or moksha or whatever'.... then why are you bothered by Sikhs or others following rules or not????????? Brahmcharyaa from everything helps, i guess..... just wondering why a straight seeker is clinging to this aspect of dharma *


*forgive me please*


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## Soulful_Sardarni (Jun 1, 2007)

Respected Surinder Kaur Cheema ji,

The point you are making up is absolutely correct that rules are made for the benefit of all. But the rules are effective only when you understand its correct meaning. Following traffic signals is a very good example but we know why we have to follow that rules. These rules have meaning and they change with times.

New times teach us new things and a society and culture could thrive and grow only if its followers or leaders have the guts to understand the needs of the changing society and are willing to accept the new thinkings and ideologies. Obviously, its the duty of the leaders to seperate wheat from weeds. They should know what new things or ideologies have to accepted and what have to be kept to help people move with the new times and still hold them back to their roots.

Respected Agampreet ji........ Your point is absolutely valid, and all of us should sit back and think what are we looking out. Are we trying to seek GOD (Guru), ultimate truth or are we trying to keep our society rooted and are making our people followers of something we don't understand ourselves.

Another point that all of us are forgetting is love, the ultimate love towards all the living beings made by GOD. This is also a way to achieve the almighty. Let us all think about it.


With due regards to all who are seniors and elders and understand things better. I am just trying to understand the best way of life...........


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## kds1980 (Jun 1, 2007)

> New times teach us new things and a society and culture could thrive and grow only if its followers or leaders have the guts to understand the needs of the changing society and are willing to accept the new thinkings and ideologies. Obviously, its the duty of the leaders to seperate wheat from weeds. They should know what new things or ideologies have to accepted and what have to be kept to help people move with the new times and still hold them back to their roots.



dear soulful sardarni
you are right new times teach us new things but the sikhs that are cutting their hair
should have some solid reason to cut it.unfortunately majority of sikhs are cutting it to
look smarter and to attract opposite sex.with the reports from punjab of sikhs cutting their hairs their are also reports of youths of punjab taking drugs.so it means their is decline in 
spirituality among sikhs.do you want the new image of sikhs as sex crazy people madly chasing girls and taking drugs.if this is new time then we don't need this type of new time.

when we are children our parents make rules for us which we don' like and they don't even give reasons to us because we are too immature to understand the reason
when we grow up we realise that those rules were for our benefit.similarly when we grow
in spirituality then only can we realise that whether these rules are for our benefit or not


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## Soulful_Sardarni (Jun 2, 2007)

Dear Kds1980,

I fully agree with your point. But, probably my point is misunderstood. I just wanted to say that though the elders have right to lay down the rules, but at the same time its their duty to make kids understand the thought behind those rules in the way which is understandable to the kids.

This is true in all scenarios, otherwise we will though have rules but no followers because people who are made to follow it are either doing it blindly or are scraping it.

Its time now, that elders of our community should re-visit all the rules laid, understand its meaning themselves, lead by example and explain it to younger generations or else the thought behind all the rules will be lost and slowly and steadily we will lose all the blind followers, because its the age of asking questions and seeking answers, and for the benefit of all the answers have to be found...........

Regards,
Soulful_Sardarni


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jun 2, 2007)

agampreet singh:



> you tell me what is the relation between self knowledge and following rules be it sikhi rules or shriah.


That's an interesting slander to compare Sikh religion with Islamic Sharia. Well here's one significant difference. In Sikh religion there is no sharia law which advocates physical abuse of women. Sikhi has nothing to do with Sharia. Not even close.








> these rules keep you clinging to your particular isolated section or religion. if a person is realy on the path to self knowledge or whatever it's called finding god or moksha or whatever, then why should he be bound by anything .


Sikhs are clinging to Guruji as the path to mukti, that is the Sikh religion. If you don't want to be a Sikh, and follow Guruji's hukam for how to obtain liberation, why create all this argumentative mischief to derail the validity of Sikhi because you personally choose not to value it's teachings? 

Soulful_Sardarni:



> New times teach us new things and a society and culture could thrive and grow only if its followers or leaders have the guts to understand the needs of the changing society and are willing to accept the new thinkings and ideologies.


What new thinking and new ideologies should Sikhs have the guts to change and conform to? Western countries have wealth, primarily gained at the expense of countries like India. Should we then adopt the ideology of imperialist economic expansion and injustice? 

Western countries try to minimize children to maximize individual wealth. Should we then adopt this new thinking that birth control gives sexual freedom because in the West it's divorced from marriage and childbearing? Then we can give these devices to our daughters so they can "experiment?"

Maybe you're implying we should have the guts to understand that our kids feel like they're missing out when a young man wearing a joora can't attract an immoral, loose western girlfriend? And this would be some new ideology we should allow him to cut his joora off so he will be better accepted by the wrong kinds of people?

The point is, Sikh religion is a practice that will set you apart from worldly values and immorality. You won't be able to have the kinds of "fun" people are having in the West if you are wearing Kacchera, joora, no make-up...but you also won't be getting the record cases of venereal disease, unwanted pregnancies and insane levels of divorce and social abuse that goes with promiscuity. Gurbani says the whole world is crazy. And I believe Gurbani. But go running after the world if you want to. 

If Sikhi fails at providing a lifestyle that protects people from the evils of maaya, then it fails. At least people have to abandon Sikhi to do bad things. It would be evil and corrupt for Sikhi to abandon all of us in order to change to be popular in the kalyug. 

If a religion has no guts to stand up for what it stands for, then it wouldn't be worth keeping.


> pr Dn pr qn pr qI inMdw AKwiD Kwih hrkwieAw ] (402-15, Awsw, mÚ 5)
> par Dhan par tan par tee nindaa akhaaDh khaahi harkaa-i-aa.
> Others' wealth, others' wives and the slander of others - eating the uneatable, you have gone crazy.
> 
> ...


 
Society makes idols for teens and children. They are slickly polished, expensively promoted, financially rewarded by the dark forces. Sikh religion would destroy itself to keep up with these new ideologies and new thinking. And it would betray all our youth.
YouTube - HARD KAUR - SEXY BOY

Not everyone has the grace to be a Sikh/Sikhni. But the choice is always yours. Sikh religion has always been ahead of the times. It's about radical self-acceptance, and not conforming yourself to deluded standards which deny your modesty and your true beauty. Which kind of role model would you want to be the mother of your children? 
YouTube - Kaurageous

YouTube - Sant Ji Talking about Womens Role in Sikhi


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## Parma (Jun 2, 2007)

The turban is not the sole purpose to be a sikh. There are many SINGHS that do wrong aswell. You have to teach to be pure not just one aspect. Its about the whole collective way you live life. The sikh teachings are about ultimate purity. Purity of the mind, body and soul. Its a collective of all things a way of life. Not one way or the other. To be pure of the mind body and soul. SINGHS were made from sikhs. We are all sikhs learning. Just by doing one doesnt make you more better then another. It isnt about the next person anyway its about self. Reach within. Do not judge, who is more faithful. Only god can judge. There is only one god. Journeys different path to be pure. Same god to you and me.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jun 3, 2007)

> The turban is not the sole purpose to be a sikh.


We can all clearly see that the religion is not about wearing dastaar. But wearing dastaar is a part of the religion. 


> ਕੰਘਾ ਦੋਨੋ ਵਕਤ ਕਰ ਪਾਗ ਚੁਨੈ ਕਰ ਬਾਂਧਈ ॥
> ka(n)ghaa dhono vakath kar paag chunai kar baa(n)dhhee ||
> Comb your hair twice a daily and re-tie your dastaar (turban) each time your wear it.
> Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee





> There are many SINGHS that do wrong aswell. You have to teach to be pure not just one aspect. Its about the whole collective way you live life.


Every human being has imperfections. Singhs are human beings. Reciting Gurbani, singing kirtan, taking isnaan, keeping amrit vela, practicing Naam jap, doing seva, keeping sangat, giving daswandh, keeping rehitnamas, living by code of conduct and wearing panj kakkars of a Khalsa are the collective way to live your life as a Sikh. No one has said anything about Sikhism being about just one narrow thing, about judging others as less, or about being hypocritical. Sikhi is a way to live your life and every Sikh should be trying to conform more and more to Gursikhi. What is wrong with Sikhs trying to be good and keep these practices? Why is it all the people who want to tear down Sikh practices and articles of faith always criticize Sikhs?


> SINGHS were made from sikhs. We are all sikhs learning. Just by doing one doesnt make you more better then another.


People can become Sikhs but no one is inherently a Sikh. A Sikh means disciple of Guru Sahib Ji. To be a Sikh, you must be Guru's disciple, not just someone in general learning something. That's like saying someone studying accounting is a Sikh because he's a learner. Thats a linguistic misuse of the definition of Sikh shishya, since guru-shishya is a concept. There is no shishya without a guru. It is better to follow the hukam of Guruji if you are a Sikh, a chela. Someone who disregards the Guru's instruction by saying he is not better than someone else, is still disregarding Guru's instruction. So it is up to the individual to try to be good or not, or to compromise his practice.


> Do not judge, who is more faithful. Only god can judge. There is only one god. Journeys different path to be pure. Same god to you and me.


Do you say people are worshipping the One God through idols of many gods? Are Buddhists who shave their heads and don't believe in God, who worship many forms of Buddha and bodhisattvas following the same path as Gursikhi?

We are given the intelligence to discriminate between differences. We discriminate between hot and cold, truth and lies, good and evil. Not all paths are pure. Is an abusive cult which mistreats women and children a pure religious path equal to Gursikhi? Is a fake pakhandi baba who steals everybody's money or molests people's daughters and sons on the same spiritual journey? It is for us to use God-given intelligence to tell the difference. Because surely there are good and evil people in the world. All things are not the same. It is because we can judge good from evil actions which allows us to be protected from deceit and harm. And God has given us this dignity through discriminate use of our intelligence and intuition.


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## GuruPyaara (Jun 3, 2007)

iehu srIru sBu Drmu hY ijsu AMdir scy kI ivic joiq ] guhj rqn ivic luik rhy koeI gurmuiK syvku kFY Koiq ] sBu Awqm rwmu pCwixAw qW ieku rivAw ieko Eiq poiq ] ieku dyiKAw ieku mMinAw ieko suixAw sRvx sroiq ] jn nwnk nwmu slwih qU scu scy syvw qyrI hoiq ]


The body is so precious and pure, why not keep it the way it is made by Waheguru, Many saints from many other religions and faiths practice this after realizing this eternal truth. We sikhs  are blessed by our Gurus with this fact anyways.  Our Gurus, The Divine Jot is guiding us to the ultimate truth, through the ultimate truth not otherwise.

And I always look at myself in the mirror and praise God for making me like this, It is just marvelous creation of God, why not love, keep and respect it.


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## Parma (Jun 4, 2007)

In response to Harjas they all believe in the same god. Theres only one GOD. If someone wants to make a different practice in the way they do that then thats up to them. Although it is wrong. As Guru nanak has stated the way he has showed is the right way. The Moul manthar says enk on karr! There is only one god. Just different views on the same thing. Religions are many, thoughts are many. The only right path is through sikhism. You might say that if that's the case then, how can you call an hindu a hindu, or an christian a christian. They do that themselves. Like the caste system. Guru nanak didnt start the religion to make differences in it but to bring humanity closer together. In the end it falls down to understanding. You cant spoon feed thoughts of reality into no ones head. That is done through your own realisation of your life. Your journey is different to mine. Path is to be pure. Hope you find peace of mind. P.S. I aint trying to tear down any practices. Forgive me if i've misunderstood you. Maybe you were speaking in general. Otherwise I'd like to know were I've stated to tear down any sikhi practices.
Obviously if someone started to pray to a human and called them god, that would be there interpretation of god but would be wrong. Its a process of thought. Process thought on the right way to god through the gurbani.
Just the same as some people have sometimes stated Guru nanak to be god. Will my christian friends have, when it come to jesus. 
JUST INCASE: They believe in god, just they dont follow the right way to god. ONLY ONE GOD AS STATED IN THE GURBARNI ASWELL. O AND HARJAS I AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT BUT WHY ARE YOU WRITTING IT DOWN! You've quoted from me but havent added much extra to the debate. Its like trying to be picky? "YOU HAVENT SAID ANYTHING AGAINST MY QUOTES"> DID I SAY SOMETHING WRONG? CANT UNDERSTAND ARGUMENTATIVE! In the future I wont reply back to SILLY PEOPLE!! Waste of thought and energy. Wont lower myself to that breed of thought. NOT THAT IM SCARED OOOO! Maybe i've misinterprited you. SORRY AND PLEASE HUMBLEY FORGIVE ME, IF I HAVE!!!:}8-::advocate::whisling::shock:

SOMETHING I SAW IN SOMEONES POST THAT I LIKED!!!!! NICE 1 SEEKER 2
Encouraging words, smiles they bring
Words that hurt, feel the sting
Hurtful words, pierce like a spear
Promising words, we hold so dear
Words of hope, deliver good cheer
Words of despair, cause many tears
Complimentary words, spoken so gently
Word that bring heartache, voiced intently
Words of sadness, crush a spirit
Loving words, uplift souls
Words can be powerful, mouth them with more control
Kind-hearted words pass the love with thoughtfulness
Not so hard to utter, instead of words that digress.


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## truthseeker (Jun 4, 2007)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

Let me first say I'm sorry as i have not read the entire thread so i may be repeating something that someone has already posted.

I really do not understand why we bicker and agrue about these types of things. I hope everyone will agree with me if i were say that in order to be a sikh one must love their Guru.
May philosophers have stated that Love is a Verb(an action) and not merely a noun. So if one is to say they LOVE their Guru, they must do those actions in which love would be classified. This would include respecting, understanding and following Guru Sahib's Hukam. So if your Guru says jump you jump and if He says do not remove your hair, you do so. 
Im not saying that a singh who cuts his hair does not love his Guru, but maybe is love is not as strong.  Now im nobody to just, merely the dust of thy feet. But i think that this may give a little bit of an explanation for the reason why someone who calls himself a sikh may cut his hair.

Like someone else has already mentioned Sikhs are not the only ones to keep unshorn hair. Many enlightened people throughout history have kept unshorn hair once they where shown the ultimate truth or Waheguru. Being sikhs we have been blessed with a Guru who has given us the tools to attain mukti so easily. Without having to try different methods or go on different paths, we are given the most direct path to Waheguru, and keeping our hair is apart of that path.
Why do you think that its a bajjarkurehit when if we remove our hair and one must go infront of punj pyare, but if a kanga or kirpan is removed a simple ardas can just be done.  Our Gurus gave a very high position to hair, and i think that we should try to remember just how important it is. Not only physically, but mentally and most most importantly, Spritually>
bhul chuk maaf karni

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 5, 2007)

Aman Singh said:


> Seems like people are really insecure about themselves!
> 
> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp...28F%29&sid=  1
> 
> ...



Sat Shri Akal
my dear friend I appreciate ur concern over whatever is going on in punjab n else where.Sikhi has gone thru hard times n on;y strong evlove while others perish.Waheguru created a small religion despite of knowing that already two big religion r existing n god knew that they can easily absorb this small religion But Guru gave sikhs a way of life called sikhi n it is very difficult lifestyle as our history tells us very clearly.Guru Gobind Singh created new religion only for the toughest ones.He Asked for five heads(most difficult decision n task one can perform n most difficult to perform Hukum of Guru) n seeing them many agreed to follow this toughest lifestyle n so sikhs evolved.Guru joined them in their army n soft hands were handling weapons in the battle fields.they agreed to accept toughest Hukums of their guru.Those who refused guru didn't accept them as his sikhs.So my friend Sikhi is very very difficult both at physical n mentally.mentally a sikh must be very strong n free himself from shaky ground(worldly ****-example bollywood in India) n so Guru called them as Khalsa becoz they despite of living in meteristic world n worldly attraction never refused to Guru's Hukums(Orders) n strictly followed guru's way of being a Saint n a Soldier.

He made Sikhs a Saint becoz a saint can easily conquer his mind n follow guru's toughest hukums-Example getting up at 2 o'clock(time when golden temple door r opened for sikhs to come inside n so sikh must be present before doors open).tell me how many sikhs do this today.i think Number is less than 1%.

Also Sikh is Soldier n greatest part of a soldier is self disciple n mind management.Now-a-days sikhs have no time of getting up,no proper sleeping time,No eating timing(they eat whole day like pigs).They never exercise n have no exercise timing everyday,No weapon training,No proper respect n following of Guru gobind Singh Orders.
now tell me r these sikhs any different from other religions those who simply talk n praise their respective religion n NEVER FOLLOW(difficult part) becoz following is difficult.But Sikhi itself means difficult lifestyle n toughest only survive while others collapse or hide their identity n merge into others.Guru said no caste but jats said more caste system.they disobeyed Guru one Bachaan n so it was an easy way to disrespect guru n it is this disrespect n neglecting of guru 's bachaan that is making them very very weak day by day.Simple logic-Disobey one Hukum n one can disobey many many and if One stick hard to one Hukum He/she can stick to all.Logic is very Simple n it is the only strong driving force among sikhs of past.Guru said no hair-cutting n so sikhs sticked to it very very very firmly n it was the most most toughest Hukum of guru for sikhs n they obeyed it.Result they wiped out all mugals n totally perished their big Empire.

This theory holds true for all time.Now the question do jatts(who r No. 1 in hair cutting) in punjab stick to Guru's Bachaans.Answer is No.
So why Guru himself(who manages this entire world n entire universe at his will) should continue with this kind of sikhi.So Guru himself is helping such weak to be sucked by waves of this ocean world n finally perish skowly.
Only those r true n follow guru's Hukums will remain n emerge strong n very powerful they will be called Khalsas.Rulers will be only khlasas.Rest will perish.Says guru Granth SahibJi So why worry my friend.Noone can stop guru's Hukum.Can U?.
Have very firm faith in Guru n Immense trust in ur Lion-Saint Guru.Be like ur Guru n live his lifestyle.I know today's lifestyle is very different but a sikh should be very adaptable without sacrificing sikhi paths.U can still wake up at 2 or 4 o'clock to offer paath to Guru.Sikhs have accepted the modern lifestyle by giving up sikhi paths.They wake up very late n eat heavy 3 meals.Sikhs of the past ate little Karha-Prasad after paath n Kirtan that ended at 6 or 7 n stayed that way till 12 o'clock(conquering their minds) n ate only two meals whole day.Second meal after rehraas Sahib n Kirtan Sohilla after sunset.Do sikhs of today maintain this kind of discipline.Answer No.So Sikhi is vanishing n so the sikhs as they loose chardi kala that comes from guru by following this tough lifestyle.Believe me my friend.I practice all this everyday n so i truely know what is true feelings of Chardi kala.
Weak will be the first to feel insecure n start hiding themselves by getting hair cut n easily fall prey into this world ****,bollywood,alcohol,etc.They will vanish oneday.Patits will perish.Strong n toughest will continue.
My advise to U is that U focuss more on urself n ur nearest ones.U will never shake by the toughest storms of this world.
Listen Guru,See Guru's videos n movies n sikhi,talk Sikhi n guru's bachaans n Live Guru's toughest lifestyle n then see the wonder results all by urself.It is an experince n true strength that one gets by following at self level.noone else can help u to follow except U urself.

*So here r some wonder guidelines of guru Ji 's(though very tough):

1. wake up very early in the morning 2 0r 4 o'clock.

2.eat very little in the morning(Asa Di Vaar sung in the early morning to remind sikhs of important things n one of them is:Aan pani thora Khaya So Baksisi agla-means sikh should eat n drink very light early morning n so he will be able to focuss on Guru's words n keep them in mind throughout the day).Isn't this is mind conquering exercise of guruji's.

3.Eat heavy meal at 11:00 or 12:00 n exercise heavily afterwards.

4.Don't relax or sleep during day.very little is acceptable but it is a curse for a soldier when he is in war/battle n so prepare like a soldier.keep urself engaged in tough activites,games n sports,weapon training,etc to be a ALL-READY soldier.TAYAAR BAR TAYAAR KHALSA.

5.Eat second heavy meal after rehraas n again exercise.Sleep late n wake up early.nothing is more tough than this one.Says guru himself.Thora sonvey thora hee khavey.Sikh must sleep less n eat less meals.*

jatts in punjabs have poor lifestyle n so thier body is very weak n so they feel hot n cold very easily.:crazy:So they get rid of their hairs at earliest.Biharis work for them n they simply relax at home,eat,drink n no exercise.So is the result.Those who cannot change themselves will elope or vanish one day for sure.

Chardi Kala
Bole Sohnehal Sat Shri Akal.
Victory to Khalsa Alone


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 6, 2007)

FiveLovedOnes said:


> Sat Shri Akal
> my dear friend I appreciate ur concern over whatever is going on in punjab n else where.Sikhi has gone thru hard times n on;y strong evlove while others perish.Waheguru created a small religion despite of knowing that already two big religion r existing n god knew that they can easily absorb this small religion But Guru gave sikhs a way of life called sikhi n it is very difficult lifestyle as our history tells us very clearly.Guru Gobind Singh created new religion only for the toughest ones.He Asked for five heads(most difficult decision n task one can perform n most difficult to perform Hukum of Guru) n seeing them many agreed to follow this toughest lifestyle n so sikhs evolved.Guru joined them in their army n soft hands were handling weapons in the battle fields.they agreed to accept toughest Hukums of their guru.Those who refused guru didn't accept them as his sikhs.So my friend Sikhi is very very difficult both at physical n mentally.mentally a sikh must be very strong n free himself from shaky ground(worldly ****-example bollywood in India) n so Guru called them as Khalsa becoz they despite of living in meteristic world n worldly attraction never refused to Guru's Hukums(Orders) n strictly followed guru's way of being a Saint n a Soldier.
> 
> He made Sikhs a Saint becoz a saint can easily conquer his mind n follow guru's toughest hukums-Example getting up at 2 o'clock(time when golden temple door r opened for sikhs to come inside n so sikh must be present before doors open).tell me how many sikhs do this today.i think Number is less than 1%.
> ...


 
where are you getting all this from? 

sleeping late and waking early is not very healthy, eating less is even worse. on top of that you say that Khalsa must do heavy work during the day and not sleep at all. :hmm: if tayaar bar tayaar khalsa means that khalsa is deprived of sleep and nutrition then khalsa is not really tayaar


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 7, 2007)

BhagatSingh said:


> where are you getting all this from?
> 
> sleeping late and waking early is not very healthy, eating less is even worse. on top of that you say that Khalsa must do heavy work during the day and not sleep at all. :hmm: if tayaar bar tayaar khalsa means that khalsa is deprived of sleep and nutrition then khalsa is not really tayaar



*My dear friend u have very poor reading n grasping.Read my comments again n again what I have written.I have added Gurbani lines for evidence so why an ambiguity covers U.U don't have trust in ur Guru who created U.Follow either this world or Guru.Choice is Urs.
*


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 7, 2007)

*By eating less Guru meant not overloading every time u eat ur meal n eating only at times n not eating n drinking frequently anytime the way this world do now-a-days.Guru Said eat light only when u feel very hungry n not at other times.

U should start using ur own mind rather that than asking like kids.Noone is going to spoon feed U.Read Gurubani n understand urself or experiment on urself to find what is the best amount of meal n what timings r perfect whole day.Ur trust in guru will teach U the best.
U should remember that most of the problems humans r sufferring from now r coming from over-eating including colon cancer.:advocate:
*


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## SuburbanSikh (Jun 7, 2007)

I got to rate our Brothers in Espniola and California, they are a convert sikhs and the wonderful thing about them is that they don't have the friction of the Punjabi Culture to deal with.  Faith and Culture is not the same thing. 

I truley believe, Nowadays, Being Punjabi and a Sikh are not necassarily the same thing.

One is regional the other is faith..  This is prodomenantly where the confusion  lies.  

The convert sikhs are very much orthadox and they realise the value of their faith because they have learnt and adopted to it and truley belief it has substance and deep importance in their life ot atain a far greater level then just being human.

I think fundamentally, our culture and the perception some of piers are driving which limit and disinterest todasy youth from actually seeing the "Real GEM" hidden in the mist which is this world.

Modernisation is described as : _the condition that results from being modern._
The word modern is described as : _relating to people or things from modern times and not from some time in the past_

The ideas of faith, is one of belief - in any faith as tiem goes on the BELIEF does should not vary irrespective of the technologies, societies and communities.  

I think there are a lot of areas which add to the state of our Youth today.

No one person can know all history, know all sides of every argument ever conseived, know all people in the argument and their history adn relationship to the subject..  This is SIMPLY why the Tenth Master passed on  his Guru Gadhi to "Guru Granth Sahb jee"  true to when it was compiled, it will remains the same and it will remain the same..  

This is the unity which ties us all together - this is the reasons our faith exists..   

We seldom take time out to understand the knowledge, experience and awakening our guru offers us.

WJKKWJKF 

Gee


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 7, 2007)

SuburbanSikh said:


> I got to rate our Brothers in Espniola and California, they are a convert sikhs and the wonderful thing about them is that they don't have the friction of the Punjabi Culture to deal with.  Faith and Culture is not the same thing. *
> WHAT DO U MEAN BY FRICTION.ONCE U R IN SIKHI U R A FAMILY MEMBER OF SIKHS N SO WHY COMES THE CONCEPT OF FRICTION.IT IS UR OWN MIND CREATED CONCEPT MY FRIEND.THERE IS NO FRICTION IN SIKHS.SIKHS R MOST WONDERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WITH IMMENSE TOLERANCE N LOVE FOR ALL MANKIND BUT STILL HOLD STRONG FAITH IN GUR'S WORDS.*
> 
> I truley believe, Nowadays, Being Punjabi and a Sikh are not necassarily the same thing.
> ...



*SAT SHRI AKAL*


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 8, 2007)

FiveLovedOnes said:


> *My dear friend u have very poor reading n grasping.Read my comments again n again what I have written.I have added Gurbani lines for evidence so why an ambiguity covers U.U don't have trust in ur Guru who created U.Follow either this world or Guru.Choice is Urs.*


 
I may have poor reading and grasping but uhave not shown where u r getting that info from. U havent shown where in GGS it says that, page #, etc ,which is wut iasked for.:}:


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 8, 2007)

FiveLovedOnes said:


> *By eating less Guru meant not overloading every time u eat ur meal n eating only at times n not eating n drinking frequently anytime the way this world do now-a-days.Guru Said eat light only when u feel very hungry n not at other times.*
> 
> *U should start using ur own mind rather that than asking like kids.Noone is going to spoon feed U.Read Gurubani n understand urself or experiment on urself to find what is the best amount of meal n what timings r perfect whole day.Ur trust in guru will teach U the best.*
> *U should remember that most of the problems humans r sufferring from now r coming from over-eating including colon cancer.:advocate:*


well sorry for asking mate


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## harbansj24 (Jun 8, 2007)

Aman Singh said:


> Seems like people are really insecure about themselves!
> 
> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp...28F%29&sid=  1
> 
> ...


The main culprits for this are members of SGPC and DSGMC. Both are poor role models for Sikh youth. it is open secret that their family members are poor adherents of Sikh faith and that they too openly consume alchohol which was strictly prohibited by Guru Gobind Singh as much he banned the use of tobbacco. it is a shame that the Punjab government takes pride in the fact that liqour consumption is the highest in Punjab!


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## Neet84 (Jun 24, 2007)

In regards to what SuburbanSikh mentioned, I agree in the most part.  In addition I think the argument of differentiatingbetween what a Sikh is and what a Punjabi person is, is best seen by those who don't actually live in Punjab.  While the two are often in synergy of one another they do not equate to the same; in fact being a "typical Punjabi" (in terms of conforming to a drinking culture (often more proud to be a jatt than Sikh-think we all know some ppl that fit this definition))can often be the opposite of being a Sikh.  The reason why those of us who live outside Punjab can see this with greater clarity is because we live in a wider culture so can identify the differences of punjabi culture/ english culture/youth culture/british asian culture etc and Sikhi.    The friction between culture and religion occurs because of a variety of conflicting factors (peers, general uni life, family etc), although I think it is more of a youth issue.  

Fivelovedones-I can sort of see where you are coming from, although I feel that in order to re-connect with the so-called "lost Sikhs" there needs to be a greater understanding as to why people drifted from their faith and only then can we begin to change the current trend.


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## harbansj24 (Jun 25, 2007)

A Sikh has to be a Sikh both from his value systems and his external appearences to be true Sikh. 

We should have the confidence to be proud of our unique identity.

But what is the reality? Most well known "Sikhs", members of SGPC, DSGMC etc are poor role models. Members of their families are not adherants of true Sikhism. They openly indulge in consumption of alcohol and other intoxitants. In fact Punjab boasts of highest liquor consumption in the entire country!

The external appearences should be associated with a life full of moral purpose, of humility, piety and free from rapacious indulgence. As soon as anyone sees a Sikh he should be able to associate such noble qualities with him and a Sikh should not let him down.

Only when the young Sikhs see such sterling role models they will proudly adopt the external identity and defend it among his peers!

Raj karega Khalsa!


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## Borneo Sikha (Jul 30, 2007)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

I think sikhs who have cut off their long hair should be ashamed. i used to be a crop and truth be told i was so ashamed when i saw 3 westerners in amritsar 6 years ago who were Khalsas'. that made me think and 2 years ago i took the step to keep my hair and it has not been easy. non of my family members have long hair or a turban except for 2 uncles and my late grandfather. But i choose to keep my hair to embrace Sikhi and to maintain our identity and also my grandfathers good name and i hope by doing so ill see more of my family members doing so. i was encouraged by another friend who was a crop and who has long hair now. but i cant force anyone, but i will encourage them.  i feel we should encourage the younger ppl to do the right thing and let them choose. 
If it took one sikh's encouragement and a couple of years to sink in to my head, i know we can once again have more sikhs to keep their hair. So ppl try to encourage at least one sikh a year and u will find more ppl like me keeping their hair again. 

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## harbansj24 (Aug 1, 2007)

Dear Max,

It sure is a personal choice that anyone should keep his hair or not. And ofcourse nobody has a right to despise you if you do not keep it.
But my tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given the Sikhs a unique, distinct and Majestic identity that Sikhs have to have if they are to be called Sikhs.
So if you wish to be known as a Sikh then among other essential codes of conduct, you also have to keep kesh.
And we need not worry, people will not for ever be driven away from Sikhism . Most will return to its fold and the numbers shall grow. My gurus will ensure it for the good of mankind.

Harbans


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## TGill (Aug 13, 2007)

I am totally confused, please clarify:

Guruji himself said:
Kes dhare na mile har pyare : Akal ustat

As far as enlightened people and not cutting hair is concerned: Buddha was clean shaven, kabir ji in many pictures is shown as trimmed beard. 

Why such a hue and cry over cutting of hair !! 

Guruji said "Raheni rahe soi sikh mera, o sahib hao uska chera"
Seems more to me as if he is saying : The one who submits to the divine will is my true sikh !!


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## Sherab (Aug 13, 2007)

TGill said:


> I am totally confused, please clarify:
> 
> Guruji himself said:
> Kes dhare na mile har pyare : Akal ustat
> ...


The Buddha did have long hair.
However - one of the major 32 marks of a Buddha, as well as a wheel turning king, as defined in the Shravka Tripitaka is that "he has a head shaped like a turban".

He though to leave Maya you have to leave the world behind, so he cut off his hair and became an ascetic for the next 5+ years.

Also, according to Sikhism, because the Buddha rejected God as being real, or in the highest place of authority, he could bot carry out God's hukam so the veil of maya could not be torn away.

However, his method of questions greatly influences my logic.

 - Surinderjit


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## TGill (Aug 13, 2007)

The question is different !


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## FiveLovedOnes (Aug 13, 2007)

*Yes u r right my friend that one who submit to his Divine wish completely alone meets the Lord n to meet the Lord one needs a Guru to Guide one all along his journey of life.Right now our Guru is Gurubani himself n so we need not wander around for truth n enlightenment.
Budda never had any guru to guide him the proper way n without guru onone can ever meet the Guru.BTW Who knows if Budda met the lord.Without accepting a true guru noone can,says gurubani.(Only with Guru Prasad only one meets the Lord).Nowhere in Gurubani has any Guru stated about Budda who was from India although our guru mentioned all saints n sufis n others from India in Gurubani.That means he didn't met the Lord.Guru talked about krishna who came long before our gurus n only stated him as a simple man n no god(that foolish hindus consider as God avatar).Guru has mentioned all saints who were truely in tune with the Lords 's ways like Bhagat Kabir,Ravidas,etc.All have surrendered to the wishes n ways of the Waheguru n so they were all in the true form of the God with all complete hairs.If someone has made a picture of Bhagat Kabir as with no beard then that is one fool's creation.All saints who have been mentioned in Gurubani were all in complete form.So my dear friend leave all ambiguities n be in ur complete form n be complete in  actions the Guru stated.U need to be a Saint + a Soldier.

If Guruji has said that without Hairs Waheguru cannot be met then it really means that Guru cannot be found without complete surrender to his wishes.Have full trust in ur Guru beyond anything else or anyone else-photos n other stuff from foolish hindus n others.

KES DARE NA MILE HAR PYARE.


REHNI RAHE SOHE SIKH MERA
O SAHIB HOA USKA CHERA

SAT SIRI AKALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAA
*






TGill said:


> I am totally confused, please clarify:
> 
> Guruji himself said:
> Kes dhare na mile har pyare : Akal ustat
> ...


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## Sherab (Aug 13, 2007)

FiveLovedOnes said:


> * Budda never had any guru to guide him the proper way n without guru onone can ever meet the Guru.BTW Who knows if Budda met the lord.*


To clear things up, he had 2 human gurus as well as the lineages of tantra.

However, i think Sikhism remain very afraid if something has a true lineage - whether or not he had a guru does not make it correct.

I am a bit of a supporter of Buddhism, however as I think the "raised and born" sikhs can learn alot from th thinking and logic he used - but that's as far as it goes.


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## TGill (Aug 13, 2007)

Thanks for clarifying but confusion still remains -

U say guruji has said waheguru can't be met without having hair - I think that is completely wrong as Guruji has said:


_Kabir preet ik sio kiye aan dubida jaye. Bhanvein lambe kes kar bhave gharrar mudaey. - That is what guruji says

I was looking for some script where Guruji has actually said that you should keep hair, I haven't found any... Please tell me where is it written. That will be a great help.  

I don't wanna be a hypocrat, unless the doubt is gone how can I have a complete faith cos otherwise it will just be a blind faith, which is totally against Guru's teachings.
_


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## drkhalsa (Aug 13, 2007)

> am a bit of a supporter of Buddhism, however as I think the "raised and born" sikhs can learn alot from th thinking and logic he used - but that's as far as it goes




Agree with you my friend there is lot of stuff in there that just makes you present in the moment so kind of shock therapy as I call it .Also In past I was very keen in reading Taoism is also excellent tool

Anyway this is out of disscusion as far as this topic is concerned



what I have to say about hair thingee


I consider that Elightened being like our very beloved Guru ji spoke and wrote for everybody so are guide to all walks of life including monks and householders

But of course they lived their lives in particular way and that definately influenced people  around them or you can call then devout seekers .So they adapted to living style of our Sahibaans and that included keeping long hairs and living as householder .
This is np conpiracy that so many peoples in sikh history and till now keep long hairs obviously it is tradition from the time of our gurus 

Said all that even all this does not make it essential for any body to keep hair to realise the truth or GOD.
 If this makes somebody happy and at ease that they have  cut hair and still equal in eye of God then let it be


Jatinder Singh


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## drkhalsa (Aug 13, 2007)

> I was looking for some script where Guruji has actually said that you should keep hair, I haven't found any... Please tell me where is it written. That will be a great help.



if you really looking for that 
Its there in dasam granth ( probably closing part ) where Beloved Guruji warned his Sikhs against HAZAMAT along with other kurehats ( Exact location text I help find out if you r interested )

But Big question is that many of sikhs dont agree dasam granth to be Gururji Writings?!

_ I_


> don't wanna be a hypocrat, unless the doubt is gone how can I have a complete faith cos otherwise it will just be a blind faith, which is totally against Guru's teachings.





For me I dont have to worry about Blind thing...why?..because I am myself Blind so that leaves only option that the thing I put my faith in should not be blind 



Thanks 


Jatinder Singh
Thanks


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## TGill (Aug 13, 2007)

Thanks Jatinder Singh ji,

but how do you know that the thing u have faith in is not blind unless u have absolutely no doubt about it. !! 

What I'm trying to say is that at one end people have the logic to say that dasam granth is not guruji original composition, and on the other hand there is such a hue and cry about not cutting hair (the original source of which is Dasam granth itself). 

I don't know if Guruji actually wrote dasam granth but then at the same time I don't know if he really said to not cut your hair.

Please let me know if there is any script where it is written by Guruji not to cut one's hair. It will be an immense help !


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## Astroboy (Aug 14, 2007)

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/discourses-in-english/16516-kirtan-with-english-sub-titles-2.html

See the amazing kid doing keertan.


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## TGill (Aug 14, 2007)

Amazingly beautiful !! but is that the answer to my question ?


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## TGill (Aug 15, 2007)

Do I assume that there is no answer ??


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## Astroboy (Aug 15, 2007)

Your answer lies in the thread called Women in Sikhism. It is a pdf file. Read it and you'll find your answers. A true seeker leaves no stone unturned. I am not good in summarizing the contents into a few lines.


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## TGill (Aug 15, 2007)

SSA and thanks for the pdf.

I assume you are talking about the thread " Women in Sikh History"....


I have read the pdf, and I don't find any answer there. 

I asked, please let me know if there is any script where Guruji has said to keep one's hair. One is in Dasam Granth, is there any other place as well ?

I respect the stories in there but I'm still struggling with my question.

Thanks


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## Sherab (Aug 15, 2007)

TGill said:


> SSA and thanks for the pdf.
> 
> I assume you are talking about the thread " Women in Sikh History"....
> 
> ...



TGill-ji, here is your answer:

_   Guru Nanak started the tradition of keeping hair intact and covering the head   with a turban. The rest of the Nine Gurus encouraged their Sikhs to do the   same. The following quote from the Guru Granth Sahib (Adi Granth, the Sikh   Holy Book) clearly shows that long before Guru Gobind Singh made it   obligatory, the keeping of long hair and the wearing of a turban was actively   preached by all the Gurus.  _
_     "Let living in God's presence, With mind rid of impurities, Be your     discipline. 
    Keep the God-given form intact, With a turban donned on your head."
    GGS Page 1084, Line 12 
_



Please also see: Hair Power I



 - Surinderjit




​


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## rajinder singh saini (Aug 15, 2007)

I reside outside Punjab, in Uttarakhand. When I visit my relatives at Hoshiarpur I am shocked to see that none of their sons are kesadhari. We are also to blame. When some boys come to gurdwara with trimmed beards we oldies openly condemn them and they stop coming to Gurdwaras and one day they visit the barber. I am not in favour of trimming the beard but we must encourage these beard trimming or cleanshaven sikh boys to come to gurdwaras and proper frndy advise must be given. Our so called Sikh leaders are busy fighting each other and shamefully pulling each others beard and turban They dont have time for proper PRACHAR. In Nanakmatta Sahib we are unable to elect a committee due to infight and Uttarakhand Govt has been looking after it . SHAME


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## TGill (Aug 15, 2007)

Sherab Ji.. can't thank you much...!!

The line you mentioned is this:
Naapaak Paak kar hadoor hadisa sabat soorat dastar sira ||

This means, purify what is impure, and let lord's presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head.

which seems more of a mataphor and not what a person should physically appear as. Moreover, turban used to be an object of one's respectability during those times and hence the shabad. The context of the shabad is where Guruji explains who is a true Musalaman.  

Please let me know if I am wrong. Can you please tell me from where did you find that wearing of turban and keeping hair was actively preached by Guruji.


Thanks a bunch again


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## drkhalsa (Aug 15, 2007)

> I reside outside Punjab, in Uttarakhand. When I visit my relatives at Hoshiarpur I am shocked to see that none of their sons are kesadhari. We are also to blame. When some boys come to gurdwara with trimmed beards we oldies openly condemn them and they stop coming to Gurdwaras and one day they visit the barber. I am not in favour of trimming the beard but we must encourage these beard trimming or cleanshaven sikh boys to come to gurdwaras and proper frndy advise must be given. Our so called Sikh leaders are busy fighting each other and shamefully pulling each others beard and turban They dont have time for proper PRACHAR. In Nanakmatta Sahib we are unable to elect a committee due to infight and Uttarakhand Govt has been looking after it . SHAME




Dear Rajinder Singh

That was really valuable psot infact each and every word was useful !
You are very right in saying that by condenming th young people we have have pushed them further  away  and acceptance of the  Trimmers and monas  with open arms is the first step to the preaching and rest  follows surely . But we seems to take too uch in our own hand  and mess up everything 
While said all this I always tries to remind myself  the fact that all this i happening as Willed by God and so will the solution of this problem 





Jatinder Singh


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## drkhalsa (Aug 15, 2007)

> I asked, please let me know if there is any script where Guruji has said to keep one's hair. One is in Dasam Granth, is there any other place as well ?



Dear Friend 

Are you looking for some script within Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

well if Yes then i would say there is hardly any chance as  GUrbani there hardly deals with  Physical  issues  regarding eating , drinking , what to wear  what not  But more regarding the How to relate to physical world .

But If your answer is no  then there are other documents like Hukamnamas wher guruji called sikhs to Anadpur sahib and asked them to come there with Shastars and unshorn hairs 


Well one more thing I would like to make clearfor my sake here

Do you think that all our Beloved Guru Sahibans Didint keep unshorn hairs. I mean that  do you believe that there could be possibility that they cut there hair 

Well if not then why are you looking for text . Do everthing that is to be done has to be penned down in text otherwise it is useless .If all our gurus lived there life in way than that is good enough reason ( atleast for me )


Thanks 

Jatinder Singh


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## TGill (Aug 15, 2007)

Jatinder Singh Ji... 

I guessed it that Guru ji ( I mean Guru Granth sahib ji) won't talk about anything except the divine and physical appearance is way off ( and still such hue and cry on physical appearances which is ludicruous for me at least as of now).

Yes I was looking for the text like the hukamnama you mentioned. Can you please tell me where can I find the real text of this hukamnama ( I ask forgiveness for my naivety).

Well as far as all our Guruji keeping unshorn hair is concerned I'm not bothered at all. For physical appearance is not really a guru ( that is why no picture worshipping I assume  ).

What I am looking for or rather confused about is whether keeping hair is something which Guruji really made a rule cos then It will be really important for me.

Thanks


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## Sherab (Aug 15, 2007)

TGill said:


> Sherab Ji.. can't thank you much...!!
> 
> The line you mentioned is this:
> Naapaak Paak kar hadoor hadisa sabat soorat dastar sira ||
> ...


Dear TGill-ji,

I think we are getting to distracted by implied meanings - for some, a literal turban is a tool, a reminder to become pure, just like a simran mala. However, the gift of kesh from God is good enough for me to keep it. It makes me his Sikh.

Second, as soon as we discriminate - literal and un-literal, what else would we apply that too?

God, yeah, he's not literal, it's okay - or something similar can be taken out of contest, because according top SGGS, God has no form, yet has a thousand.

Does this mean because god is in all, god is in Brahma, therefore we should all get idols of Brahma in our homes?

I may be getting off topic, so to come back to the point at hand:

A. Literal or not, keeping a turban was mentioned by SGGS.

B. it is part of tradition, the 5 K's. Not everything needs to be written down for it to be true - there is still oral tradition. And for something as simple as not cutting one's hair, it's not like it's "controversial" or "life threatening" to keep your hair.

C. Turban may or may not be worn, but however - i do encourage you to keep your hair, whether you want a turban, or not - just do not cut it, and you're okay. However, if you take Amrit, it IS required to don the turban.

D. I would feel the need to be reminded of God as often as possible - what is better then a turban for that?

 - Surinderjit


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## TGill (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks Surinderjit ji ...

The divine will gave me hair, I will keep them and I will be in tune with the divine will, I can't agree more.... 
but then the same divine will gave me nails (earlier there was no need to cut them cos we worked a lot and they themselves got clipped) but now we need to clip cos we don't work that much physically, isn't that against divine will.
Divine will gave us skin and hair on the skin as well to protect the skin and so many other things, we still wear clothes and have no faith in divine protection, isn't this against the will...
Divine will gave us appendix to eat raw meat, we started cooking our food and started not to use the organ any more. Isn't that against divine will.

I'm not saying that keeping hair is life threatening but then it should be a part of personal freedom if it not that important to be a true sikh. Or otherwise it should be somewhere which tells me that it is really important to grow hair as per Guruji. I am so sorry I can't stop doubting the very basic thing of keeping one's hair...

I really can't thank you enough for your time and novel thoughts...


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## Sherab (Aug 15, 2007)

TGill said:


> Thanks Surinderjit ji ...
> 
> The divine will gave me hair, I will keep them and I will be in tune with the divine will, I can't agree more....
> but then the same divine will gave me nails (earlier there was no need to cut them cos we worked a lot and they themselves got clipped) but now we need to clip cos we don't work that much physically, isn't that against divine will.
> ...


Tgill-ji, however, the nails do break, and can harm your work - i too did not clip my nails when i did not work.

However, for heath reasons, you should cut your nails. It's not  a matter of divine will, all the time - there is cleanliness. and as for keeping kesh, it is kept clean by making sure we wear a turban, and comb our hair twice a day, and washing it at least twice a week, or more if your hair is shorter.

 - Surinderjit


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## TGill (Aug 15, 2007)

Or by cutting your hair so that you can wash them daily


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## Sherab (Aug 15, 2007)

TGill said:


> Or by cutting your hair so that you can wash them daily


Washing your hair daily actually hurts your hair - thats what the word on the street is now, after some testing was done.

 - Surinderjit

PS. if you really must cut your hair, go ahead and be like the 80%. But i assure you, if the Sikhs who were martyred just so we can keep long hair would alive, i do not want to see their expression of so called "Sikhs" who cut their hair.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 15, 2007)

> Yes I was looking for the text like the hukamnama you mentioned. Can you please tell me where can I find the real text of this hukamnama ( I ask forgiveness for my naivety).



I will try to find for you .( can take time ..bit busy nowdays)




> Well as far as all our Guruji keeping unshorn hair is concerned I'm not bothered at all. For physical appearance is not really a guru ( that is why no picture worshipping I assume
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If this how you feel : my advise dont stress yourself do whatever you like and be your own guru ( dont get me wrong here ) Its is alos valid path to be GUru to yourself but remember its difficult one for other its not possible to call somebody guru and then totally reject there physical form becuse this is where you have to start ( just cant fly straight away ) Offcourse Keeping hair dont make you spirtual but its not useless in  all the cases ( if you are interested i can recoomed a small read on this issue Say Sat sri akal - Live with Truth, achieve all Treasures and merge in Eternity there is link KES)

Dont look for any hard and fast rule .there are hardly any 

What you are expecting out of sikhism to do to your life?you want to achieve something ? or you want to be in good books of so called puran sikhs?
make it clear for yourself .as all thses require compulsary rules




> The divine will gave me hair, I will keep them and I will be in tune with the divine will, I can't agree more....
> but then the same divine will gave me nails (earlier there was no need to cut them cos we worked a lot and they themselves got clipped) but now we need to clip cos we don't work that much physically, isn't that against divine will.



One more thing brothet 
Everything is divine will even cuting somebody throat is not out of that 
In my understanding you can just be aware of DIVINE WILL and that it rest is done by it as always   there is no choice you just cant go against it you can just resist and create suffering tring oposing it 




> Or by cutting your hair so that you can wash them daily



if this is what gives you happinesscant try it and then remain aware of it and see did it really gave you what you were expecting 

I am sure results will be interesting as in my experience the things that we ususally think to give some fesh breath of happiness fail to do so if we really see it with awareness .

Rest assured no body can take you chance to meet Lord/Akal /or being enlightened even if you cut everything unecessary (   in medical field appendix , wisdom tooth were thought to be so ...but now there alos considewred essential .....he he  jsut Joking   )

Take care my friend 


Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 15, 2007)

<<if the Sikhs who were martyred just so we can keep long hair would alive, i do not want to see their expression of so called "Sikhs" who cut their hair.>>

i have a question


were the martyrs ready to give their lives for hair or their beliefs?

there is a thin line distinguishing both...so make a choice.


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## Sherab (Aug 15, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> <<if the Sikhs who were martyred just so we can keep long hair would alive, i do not want to see their expression of so called "Sikhs" who cut their hair.>>
> 
> i have a question
> 
> ...


Both.

Having the hair shows your willingness of taken Amrit that makes you a Sikh - which includes the beliefs.

So, again - it is both. However, if you had longer hair, but no beliefs for Sikhi, why fight against the Mughal's over Sikhi in the first place?


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## TGill (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks Jatinder ji,

I'll wait for your reply and the text. 

I said I'm not bothered about the way Guruji looked, who knows how they looked like, they said shabad is the Guru (sIdh Ghost) .. So I need not be my own Guru by not beleiving in Guru's physical apperance, cos shabad can still be my Guru.... isn't it ?

The thing I'm asking is really simple, my quest is to find out if Guruji really emphasized so much on keepin one's hair, cos otherwise we are just following a blind ritual without even knowing the truth. 

As for the logic given out by the people to keep hair to be sikh is very bogus.... and this very poor logic is what makes me confused.. !!


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 16, 2007)

one more question-

w2hat were Gurus opposing?

1. conversion to islam 

2. forcible conversion to islam

3. infringement of individual's right to follow and practise any religion


urge all to think abt this and reply...

this can help us build the discussion on "Sikh Beliefs" - "sikh rituals" and "Sikh tenants"

as it is very important to distinguish between the three...


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## TGill (Aug 18, 2007)

Jatinder Singh ji,

help ! waiting for the text? sorry for bothering you so much.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 22, 2007)

* < sRI vwihgurU jI kI Pqih ]
                    sRi muKvwk pwiqswhI 10 ]
                    inswin isKI eIN pMj hriP Asq kwP ]
                    hrigj nw bwsd eIN pMj muAwP ] 1]
                    kVw kwrdo k`C kMGy ibdW ]
                    iblw kys hyc Asq jumly insW ] 2]
                    hrP hkwieq Asq AjI pMj kwP]
                    ibdw nMd bwvr n goXm iKlwP ] 3]
                    hu`kw hjwmq hlwlo hrwm ]
                    bwrIsy ihnw krd rU isXw Pwm ] 4] 1]
                     (AsPokt sÍYXy, sRI dsm gRMQ)
The following five K’s are the                      mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body.                      Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of                      them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless.                      There are also four H’s which must be avoided. Understand                      this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking                      tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat,                      removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual                      relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H’s.                      Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the                      wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly                      forbidden. 
                     (Sri Dasam Granth)



Vijaydeep singh helped me find this from dasam Granth as I mentioned earlier
*


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## TGill (Aug 22, 2007)

Thanks Jatinder Singh ji,

You were talking about the hukamnama at anandpur sahib, any luck on that !!


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## drkhalsa (Aug 22, 2007)

Hmm Not sure !

But definately we can get something more in this regard but it will be more feasible after last week of Sept ( I am giving my exam )


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## kds1980 (Aug 22, 2007)

TGill said:


> Thanks Jatinder Singh ji,
> 
> You were talking about the hukamnama at anandpur sahib, any luck on that !!



 (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.): 

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga
Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai
Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena
Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;
Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna
SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna
Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna
Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha
Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana
Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe
Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso
Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna
Guru kee rahat rakhnee
Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.
Patshahi Dasvi
Jeth 26, Samat 1756


To the entire sangat at Kabul.
The Guru will protect the Sangat,
I am pleased with you all.
You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.
Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,
Accept the use of shorts and a sword.
Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,
Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.
Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,
Do not use tobacco in any form,
Have no connection with those who kill their daughters
Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.
Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)
Recite the Guru's hymns
Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",
Follow the Sikh code of discipline
I give the entire sangat my blessing)
Signature of 10th Guru 
Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami 23rd May 1699 A.D

i think this is the hukamnama


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## kds1980 (Aug 22, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> * < sRI vwihgurU jI kI Pqih ]
> sRi muKvwk pwiqswhI 10 ]
> inswin isKI eIN pMj hriP Asq kwP ]
> hrigj nw bwsd eIN pMj muAwP ] 1]
> ...


 If i am not wrong this shabad is not avaailable in the online version of dasam granth.
can anybody tell me the reason why.


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## harbansj24 (Aug 23, 2007)

There is nothing to get confused. Guru Gobind Singh ji on 13th April 1699 gave the Amritdhari Sikhs a very unique and majestic identiry which has been passed down through generations. So even non amritdhari Sikhs have adopted it by which a Sikh is easily identified. A Sabat Surat Sikh has to think twice before he does anything unethical because whenever such a person is involved in wrongdoing it will be said that a Sikh has done wrong. This is not so with any other community. It does not mean that a keshdhari Sikh does no wrong but whenever he does, the whole community gets identified so that it does make him that much more careful. Similarly whenever a Sikh does something good, he brings a good name to community.

Thanks to Dr. Manmohan Singh, the whole world is better informed about Sikhs now. 

Harbans


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

How many sikhs are there who keep their hair intact(not jus the turban) and have reached international fame? If there is any who are they (except harbhajan singh yogi, that is a different case) ? 

If there is no one, why is it so?


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## kds1980 (Aug 23, 2007)

TGill said:


> How many sikhs are there who keep their hair intact(not jus the turban) and have reached international fame? If there is any who are they (except harbhajan singh yogi, that is a different case) ?
> 
> If there is no one, why is it so?



What do you mean by international fame?.do you want to know names of sikh sportsmen,actors,politicians etc.


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

Yup, international fame means - a majority of people all over the world knew someone at some point in time e.g. Milkha Singh who by the way used to cut his beard.


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## kds1980 (Aug 23, 2007)

TGill said:


> Yup, international fame means - a majority of people all over the world knew someone at some point in time e.g. Milkha Singh who by the way used to cut his beard.



well at present monty panesar a bowler in english cricket team is very popular in all cricket playing nations.he keeps his hair and beard uncut.

Also manmohan singh the prime minister of india is famous politician.

also you should look at the over all population of sikhs in world .it is 25 million from which
70% do cut their hair or trim their beard.so how many sikhs are left just 7.5 million.now with 0.1 % sikhs with uncut beard and hair how many of them are going to become world famous.


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

Does Manmohan Singh not cut his beard . Even I'm not sure now.

Well, Monty Panesar - who knows if he doesn't. anyone else ?

On the contrary, the list of others (non-sikh - sikhs) is pretty long- what say ! 

By the way, why is the ratio so skewed 70% to 30%. 

My question is not about reaching that fame, my question is why keshdhari sikhs are found mostly in extremist surroundings and not liberal. Why are we not able to tell sikhs to keep their hair without giving some stories of which we oursleves are not sure of !! 

Why are we bothered more of nonessential than the essential. 

It is a question of what to keep the root or the tree ? If root is there tree can again grow, without root tree can only die.


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## kds1980 (Aug 23, 2007)

> My question is not about reaching that fame, my question is why keshdhari sikhs are found mostly in extremist surroundings and not liberal. Why are we not able to tell sikhs to keep their hair without giving some stories of which we oursleves are not sure of !!
> 
> Why are we bothered more of nonessential than the essential.
> 
> It is a question of what to keep the root or the tree ? If root is there tree can again grow, without root tree can only die.



well your conclusion that keshdhari sikhs are found in extremist environment is not true.
most of the urban sikhs in india are of khatri,arora etc caste they are not extremist but they are very much keshdhari.they are quite liberal they have many matrimonial alliance,s with hindu's.so you cannot say that keshdhari sikhs are extremists.

your second question has no answer.for many sikhs keeping hair is now very much emotional issue.They can't even imagine their sons without turban and beard.So it is matter of faith now if someone beleive that kesh is important then keep it or just do whatever you want.

Btw i agree with you. sikhism is giving too much importance to 5ks rather than developing spirituality and gurbani.


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## FiveLovedOnes (Aug 23, 2007)

*LIONS R NOT BORN BUT PRODUCED.

Guru made his sikhs Lions by putting them on extensive Exercises n weapons training n making their life most tough than ever.Guru Only motive was to convert ordinary weak people into Roaring lions  who once attack its enemy means he is all over n must run to find a place to save its life.He Taught his sikhs never to give up in battle against its enemy even if its enemy is much larger in no. than Khalsa Force n use all its might n power that he gained thru days n nights of exercises to crush the enemy.Lions Never hide n r always visible n unlike tiger that is always invisible.While Lions never Hide n attack its prey(enemy) who is many folds powerful in might but Lions never give up n bring it to its end.That 's kind of Lions Guru ji created.Let the enemy be any big n much stronger but Khalsa  never gives n must bring its enemy to kneels n make them run from the Battle field.A lion never runs from its field.All these things r clearly visible thru Guru 's Shabad.Now question is how big Hairs of Lions in Jungle interfere in their big force attacks n their life.
Those who give up their hairs will certainly lose their Lionship becoz this Lion-spirit come only by carefully listening to guru 's bachans n then following them without giving up thru extensive hardwork n hardship.

Khalsa sohe joh dust koh Galeeh(CRUSH THE ENEMY TO END N NEVER GIVE UP TILL HE WINS)

Khalsa sohe joh nit kare Jang(prepare for Real Battles against dusts/enemies everyday)

Koi Kishe ko Raaj Nah deh hain
Joh Lain Hain Nij bal peh Lain Hain(To produce BAL(MIGHT) one has to follow exact Guru's words n putting himself/herself on extesive exercises n weapons fighting  training everyday -DAY N NIGHT.SLEEP LESS.Remember Lions r not born but produced thru shear hard work everyday n every moment)
To get any raaj one has TO RISE N ATTACK ITS ENEMY WITH FORCE N MIGHT AND FIGHT ITS ENEMY TILL THEY EITHER RUN AWAY OR DEFEATED.No other way.

A sikh is one who once someone attacks him should shake his soul.One who sleeps even after many arrows hit him is a Jackal infact.Lions hit by one arrows come back n attack its enemy.
Jabbeh Baan Laghooh Tabeehah Roos Jagoohah -Guru Gobind Singh - My King Of Lions Force.

Two innocent sahabjadehes were martyred n Khalsa under the leader Banda Singh Bahadur attacked all Sarhind n crushed every force n every enemy there.They were real Lions of Guru who revenged innocent killing of two Shabjadees.They really felt the arrow hitting them n they raised back like lions.True Lions with full hairs n beard.Roaring Lions who really attack n crush their enemies.

 Today Indian Govt has prisoned more than 50,000 innocent sikhs in jails.During 1984 roits hindus killed hundreds of innocent sikhs n attacked our Golden temple n killed hundreds of our Innocent Pilgrims n sikhs of today r still lying sleeping as if no arrow hit them yet.One arrow should be enough to raise up the Lion.But Sikhs of today r like dead lions.They r wasting their time on foolish isssues while ur enemy is becoming stronger n stronger.

Today's sikhs r like dead trees who don't know anything about changing weather.Lions r produced by raising ur Sleeping lion by following toughship n thru extensive exercises n never giving up.
 
:advocate: If u think that u will become a Guru ka Lion by simply keeping hairs then u r badly wrong.Even  Sheeps have long hairs n males have long beard.But without weapons n hardships a sikh too is a sheep even if he grows his beard n moustaches.U can become guru ka Lion by following all his Hukum.Easy n most tough ones.:advocate:

Look at ur Past HISTORY.WHAT GURU TEACHES US ALL.Guru Ramdas was Ordered by Guru AngadDevJi to get water from River Viaas n give a bath to Guru at 2:00 in mid night.Guru Ramdas ji were nearly 70 years then n they never said to Guru Angad Dev ji that I am getting Old n so this is tough for me.

:advocate: This teaches every sikh that every sikh must must follow all hukums of guruji however tough they r.Guru Gobind Singh Handed over Swords n Thaals (shields) in the hands of people who were never had any experience of any such things n put them on very hardship n they never said NO to guru ji.Those who did Guru ji never accepted them.Only Those were crowned with Sikhi N Khlasa Medals those who accepted tough lifes n toughest exercises training n extensive Weapons Training DAYS N NIGHTS BY LESS SLEEP N SLEEPING ON HARD GROUNDS n SPEND THEIR NIGHTS TRAINING WITH MINIMUM SLEEP.Guru ji Made them sleep on Horse backs n made them live in Jungles n tough beds of rocks n tough ground.Only such people were crowned with lionship by guruji n not those who turned by saying NO to Guruji 's HUKUMS.
So understand urself first by noting down how much u obey ur Guru 's toughest orders EVERYDAY.How much u raise ur Lion within u EVERYDAY.How much u prepare for battle EVERYDAY n how many hours n how many times during DAY N NIGHT without loosing ur CHARDI KALA(The spirit that comes only thru tough lifestyle n extensive Exercises n Shear Hard Training).Ask urself all this questions n find out how much u r a Guru Ka Lion.Only worrying about ur Beard n Hairs will make u a incomplete Lion(SINGH) of Guru.Use Modern Technology to listen to Gurubani while Weapons Training n Extensive Body-Tearing Exercises.This is what Guru Gobind Singh Ji n Guru Hargobind Ji DID to convert common people into Lions ready all time to pounce on its enemy with greatest Force.

All r important.5 ks,Guru Shabad n Following,Preparing like Lions for Battles,n all other Baachans of Gurus.Remember it was guru Nanak who Picked up Sword in sixth Jama (Guru Hargobind - the most powerful man of the Earth born who could lift his enemy n throw his enemy on the hard ground right on his Head crushing him into pieces.It was Guru Hargobind who roared in Battle field while facing his own-trained Enemy(read History) n said to his Enemy that U don't know how to Use the Sword.Let me teach U how to.Guru Ji in one blow like a lion cut his Enemy Head teaching him how to use  Sword.Sikhs around in the battle field watched their King of Lions Guru watch all this.All praised his shear might n bowed their to their Mighty guru.That's the Power n Chardi Kala the Guru Hargobind Possessed.
He Made his force just like him.Every sikh in his force was like a powerful Lion who could stand before Hundreds n say come if u want to fight with me then stay or else run away right now.Such was CHARDI KALA of GURU HARGOBIND 's LIONS.THEY FIGHT TO BRING THEIR ENEMIES TO DEFEAT OR RUN AWAY FROM THE BATTLE FIELD.

SO BE A TRUE LION.TRUE LION OF GURU.TRUE IN OUTER FORM N INNER N PHYSICAL MIGHT.ALWAYS ROARING N READY TO ATTACK HIS ENEMY N RAISE UP WITH ONE ARROW STRIKE OF UR ENEMY.THAT'S WHAT MAKES U A SINGH OF GURU GOBIND SINGH N GURU NANAK.

IF U WANT TO BECOME GURU KA SHEER (LION) THEN ACCEPT ALL HIS ORDERS.PUT URSELF ON TOUGH PATHS N BODY-TEARING TRAINING EVERDAY.BE THE TOUGHEST N UNCONQUERABLE.ONLY THEN U WILL BE ACCEPTED BY GURU.IF U FACE THE GURU LIKE A LOSER N WITHOUT RAISING AGAINST UR ENEMY DESPITE HE CAUSED SO MUCH LOSS ON UR SIKHS N UR HOLY PLACES U WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED BY GURU EVEN IF U HAVE FULL HAIRS.GURU ONLY ACCEPTS LIONS N NOT SHEEPS.:advocate:.


SAT SIRI AKALAAA...................................................
 

*


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions. 

Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not ! 

Guru Rakha....


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 24, 2007)

TGill said:


> Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.
> 
> Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !
> 
> Guru Rakha....


 
There is this article on Search Sikhism Home Page called Hair or Hail Hair
read it if you haven't already.

-Bhagat


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## drkhalsa (Aug 24, 2007)

> Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.
> 
> Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !



Exactly No body is bothering about sheeps :}{}{}:
But we are bothering about real loins that Guru Gobind singh Ji made 

what do you say about loins..eh!

Anyway we can  see many sheeps sroling around even today ,may be they didint get chance to meet their guru.  I guess may be too much loins are no good to ecosystem as they will eat all sheeps so that could be the reason :rofl!!:

Sheeps are shaven to get wool out of there skin But no body dares to touch hair of Loin Mustache  (just joking plz dont mind )
I think you are caught in your own words:crazy:


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## FiveLovedOnes (Aug 24, 2007)

TGill said:


> Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.
> 
> Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !
> 
> Guru Rakha....



*:}{}{}:Ha ha................Kush Kita eeh mere Yaar.Bahoot Sunnee Gal Kitee Mere yaar.Sun Ke dil Kush ho Gaya.

But my friend when i said sheeps r not accepted by Guru I meant those people who don't want to go Guru 's Shelter/Saran or say no to Guru ji always remain sheep.Those who go will certaintly be changed to Lions.Guru 's words r powerful n one who listens very very carefully be transformed for sure.Condition is he/she listens n follows.Only then miracles happen or else sheep remains a sheep.Ha ha..........
Take care my friend n have lot of fun as well.


*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 24, 2007)

<<*Only then miracles happen or else sheep remains a sheep.Ha ha..........>>*

*do you really believe in miracles?*


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Khalsa ji,

I'm not caught in my own words. I think you mistook it for what I said.

Logic is simple:
1. Only sheeps are accepted by Guru not lions.... please comtemplate -))
2. When Guru accepts a sheep, it becomes a lion.... ( I mean from heart for there are many real lion species in jungle)
3. So why bother to make someone a lion with your efforts. If you think lion is someone who keeps his hair then if Guru accepts him he will become a lion.

Why are we worried in making people keep hair. Guru will take care of it if at all it is required..

So the big question now is, are you accepted by the Guru or have become lion on your own authority .. ?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 25, 2007)

i say again

charity begins at home


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## drkhalsa (Aug 25, 2007)

> So the big question now is, are you accepted by the Guru or have become lion on your own authority
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear TGill ji

I was joking and mincing words Plz dont mind and I ask for forgivness with Foded Hand if there I created some confusion It was just to lighten up the Mood


If you have asked the question above to me personally then answer is :

YES I was fortunate enough to taken in Refuge by Guru /AKAL It was one of the time of my life what I call very turbulent.I have been wandering here and there in search of support just like orphan .My councious spirtual journey started when I was in My Proffesional college and at the time I rejected all organised religion incuding Sikhism but I was kind of peace with all of them but as I was born in Sikh Family and aldo been provided for my needs by my parents I just kept on moving like dummy ( sheep in loins covering ) but inside I was blind to Sikhism 
Then after really long and painful journey I day It just become to much to be confudes and I really become helpless with loss of diection and for the first time I really asked God for the Dierction /Guru and I guess within next feew days I got m answer when I met one gursikh that opened my eyes to my Guru.All in All i Just believ that My Guru chose me .It is difficult to say such a thing in words but really I felt like writing it down .
And to clear again to avoid confusion The GURU that chose me was No body Else but the same GURU OF GURU NANAK DEV JI HIMSELF that is AKAL


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## FiveLovedOnes (Aug 25, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> <<*Only then miracles happen or else sheep remains a sheep.Ha ha..........>>*
> 
> *do you really believe in miracles?*



*Yes I do believe in miracles.Go to Guru 's Shelter n everything is possible*.

*Satgur mera maar Jivaaleey.( He can raise a dead being)

Pasu Preath Mukad ko Tarey.( He transforms big sinners into his beloved devotees)

Isn't all this miracles.Only guru can do this. 
Guru can do anything. 
A sikh just need to pass his test of immense love,devotion n seva n his blessings r ready.

Satnam Siri Waheguru.
*


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## FiveLovedOnes (Aug 25, 2007)

TGill said:


> Khalsa ji,
> 
> I'm not caught in my own words. I think you mistook it for what I said.
> 
> ...



It is a typing mistake.Please ignore.Instead it has to be like this.

Only Lions r accepted by Guru.means who go to Guru 's Saran/shelter n follow all his words dearly is changed from a sheep to a Lion.Such Lions r accepted by Guru forever.They r accepted by Guru n participate in Battles with Guru in their heart all time.


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Five loved one ji,

You have many many flaws in the logic you presented and I can totally refute that logic point by point just for discussion. 

But I won't say anything cos I think I have hurted Khalsa ji's feeling... 

*Khalsa ji,*

I ask for your forgiveness with folded hands too, for I asked you if you have become lion on your own authority... If possible please forgive me thinking of me as your younger brother who just talked loud... :{-

I'm too small before the Guru whose refuge you have taken... I'm not fortunate enough to have found that refuge yet....... I can only pray !!


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Andar khvaab vichoda hoya, khabar na paindi teri.
Sunni ban vich lutti saiyaan, chor shaang ne gheri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mullah qazi saahnu raah bataavan, dein dharam de pheri.
Eh taan thug ne jagg de jheevar, laavan jaal chuferi.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karam sharaan de dharam bataavan, sangal paavan pairi,
Zaat mazhab eh ishk na puchhda, ishk shara da vairi.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nadiyon paar mulak sajan da, lobh lehar ne gheri,
Satgur beddi phaddi khalote, taen kyun layi a deri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bulla shah shauh tennu milsi, dil nu deh dileri,
Preetam paas te tolna kisnu, bhulliyon sikhar dupehri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.[/FONT]


Khalsa ji chote vir di bhul chuk maaf !!


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## drkhalsa (Aug 25, 2007)

> *Khalsa ji,*
> 
> I ask for your forgiveness with folded hands too, for I asked you if you have become lion on your own authority... If possible please forgive me thinking of me as your younger brother who just talked loud...
> 
> ...


Dear Brother /Friend 

I just felt like saying all this but I am not upset at all ! believe me.I didint react to your comments 
You post post shows that you are senstive human being and that is the  blessing and  I think this is what God improved in me in past few years  making me more sensetive  So friend you are already blessed.

So no problem  keep writing !

Anyway thisa bulleh Shah Kafee is too nice !

Thanks for that

Jatinder singh


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## harbansj24 (Aug 27, 2007)

Dear all participants,

Guruji does not manifest himself by direct miracles but through series of very unlikely coincidences. When such incidents take place repeatedly, you do realise that there is a higher benign power that looks after you. When things do not go well, as human beings we do start doubting the existance of Guru. But we need to take one small step towards the Guru and then Guruji will take millions of steps to reach out to us. I am unable to quote this _tuk _verbatim.

Even Mother Teressa had doubted the existance of God on several occassions during the last 4 decades of her life. This has come out clearly during the discussions taking place in Vatican on her Cannonisation with evidence on record. But Vatican has decided to go ahead with the cannonisation saying that she was not God but just a human being and all human beings are subjected to such doubts several times during ther life in times of distress. 

_But when Guru ke pyare seek His intervention Guru definitely reaches out to His pyare _in ways that we can never decipher. This can be testified by innumrable Gursikhs.

Regards

Harbans


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## TGill (Aug 27, 2007)

harbans ji 
I think you posted on the wrong thread.

This thread is related to Sikh without flowing hair. So on those lines I asked my friends if there is substantial evidence that Guruji asked for keeping hair to his sikhs. I haven't found any compelling evidence, please contribute if you have any. Only evidence is Dasam Granth but people have doubt on Dasam Granth itself i.e. if this granth is Guruji's original composition or not. Nihangs believe in Dasam Granth ansd Sarab loh granth but these people have so many traditions like eating jhatka meat, drinking bhang and so on which no regular sikh will agree too these of being Guruji's advice. 

And there are many stupid things that people do in the name of five K's that it looks almost idiotic to normal mind e.g. Not flying by airplane cos you can't fly with kirpan....  These people then advocate khalistan so that then you have ur own airlines and sikhs can fly with kirpans... 

You are right harbans ji that when you move towards the Guru, Guru comes even faster towards you, but that is an inward journey. Then what about these stupidities of external look...
bhul chuk maaf...


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## D-Singh (Sep 11, 2007)

People have too idealistic notions of keeping hair. In my personal experience, it has been difficult. At 11 years of age, it caused traction alopecia..and my parents answer was to make me wear a turban.

The stress caused some alopecia areata, and I have bumps on my scalp called cutis verticis gyrata. All caused by ignorance by having my hair tied into a jura.

I am beyond the angry and depression stage, I just feel numb now. To the point where I see through the comfort of religion.

I thought I was the only one, until I met someone who also has traction alopecia caused by being a Sikh. 

I can of course, only speak from my experiences. I have grown up around other Sikh males who have disgusted me. Drinking, being racist toward other religions and thinking they are better...because they wear a turban.

I think the external appearance of a person is secondary to the internal appearance. And by being forced to wear a turban, it took away my freedom. 
To the point where I have been suicidal. I see so much ignorance, and I feel I have a right to voice my opinion because being a Sikh has caused so much pain. It is upto the individual to do whatever he or she wants. 

You can force people to be aware of God, by having external symbols. But bringing about a true awakening of God, lies within allowing yourself to search and understand the nature of the world.

Why can't we enjoy the external world? I have an understanding of life and the internal world, of consciousness...which is like a wave of energy surging throughout my body..this happens everytime I remember I am breathing. Its a humbling experience to just watch my breath.

I would never let this happen to my son, but then my parents were conditioned by their parents..and so on. I just hope that any other Sikh males who are suffering from traction alopecia to seek help.


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## drkhalsa (Sep 11, 2007)

Dear D Singh 

Welcome to the forum !

Thanks for your post

I feel really sorry to see your painful experience you have been put through as part of lofe and that too being a sikh 


I agree with your point That Traction alopacia is seen in Male Sikh adolesecent  and the main cause is faulty method of tying Hair KNOT( JURAA) . It  seems to be more prevalent in Punjabi Sikh families for their particular way of tying JURAA  and less in non Punjabi sikh cultures ( sikh from outside punjab including Western sikh )

I also personally feel thatthere should be awareness about the same aming sikhs and your post like this will help in creating more awareness.


About ALOPECIA AERATA ( it effects whole body hairs not just head ) AND CUTIS VERTICUS GYRATA : thereare many causes
Mainly : Gnetics/hereditary and Hormone Imbalance   and many others including depression as pointed by you .

ALOPECIA is in general quite common in males and in every race and religion 

You are right in Saying that most sikh use Turban as instrument of convinienec to boast about culture and such stuff but this is no  different from rest of society everybody just live life for the convienince 

One of my Friend 28 years old has gone almost bald due to androgen associate dalopecia which is kind of normal happening in many mailes ,Now is Tying Turban just hide his alopecia ( he has never tied turban in his lif e) now what is this its the same question of convinience 


> Why can't we enjoy the external world? I have an understanding of life and the internal world, of consciousness...which is like a wave of energy surging throughout my body..this happens everytime I remember I am breathing. Its a humbling experience to just watch my breath.


Not everybody is deviod of enjoying external world by just keeping hairs .Atleast I enjoy external world fully





> I would never let this happen to my son


I also think same about myself !



> I just hope that any other Sikh males who are suffering from traction alopecia to seek help.


Well for alopecia there is not medical treatment till date ( except  surgical implantation ) so I dont know what kind of help you are refering here 
well best option available is to hide the alopecia with CAP and may be Turban for sikh ( if he does not have an issue with it in particular!!)



here ia small reviw of this problem in medical journal

http://www.jabfm.org/cgi/content/full/20/5/497


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## BaljeetSingh (Oct 18, 2007)

Here are my two cents on this...

I live in United States and since my son is the only Sikh student in the elementary school, I and my wife go to our son's class every year and introduce ourselves to the students and the teacher and answer their questions about our "appearance".  So, at the beginning of thi school year, we went to our son's class and showed what was under his patka. We actually took off his patka (though we kept his head covered all the times with the open patka, but kids got a view of what was under the patka. The kids and their teacher were all very excited and had many questions. We answered all of them to the best of our knowledge. At the end came the dreaded question....The teacher asked....What if your son decides not to keep his long hair when he grows up....Though I was not prepared for this question, but the simple answer that came out of me instantly was as follows...

By definition "Sikh" means "student" who follows the teachings of his/her "Guru" or "teacher". If a student does not follow the teachings of guru, then he is no longer a student. Keeping long hair is one of the teachings of our guru. If a "Sikh" cuts his hair, then he is simply not a "student" or "Sikh". Period.


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## amar7979 (Oct 30, 2007)

*'SHAMEFUL' IS WHAT COMES TO MY MIND TO ALL THOSE WHO SHORN THEIR HAIR AND CALL THESELVES AS SIKHS !! *

*Very rightly quoted by 'truthseekar' : WHY TRY TO FIT IN WHEN YOU WERE ONLY BORN TO STAND OUT*

*The Importance of Hair in Sikh Philosophy and practice*

In Sikh philosophy and practice, the keeping of unshaven hair (Kesh) means that the Sikh lives in and resigns himself to the Will of God (Hukam). Again it is by the Will of God that man has been created the highest being in God's creation. This wonderful universe with its innumerable suns and planets came into being according to His command (Hukam). The whole of His creation and the laws that govern it and operate the highly complicated system of the universe, are in accordance with His Will. God's Will is supreme. Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh faith, writes about this supreme Will of the Creator in Japji: "By the Will of God all forms come into being. The working of that Will cannot be described. It is by His Will that the forms develop life in them and grow exalted; Some become good and others evil, And receive pain and pleasure accordingly. By that Will some are brought under grace; And the others are doomed forever. All the subject to the supreme Will, none is outside its pale, Nanak, if this be rightly understood, no one would assert himself. " 

It was thus quite apt that the form and appearance of the Guru's Sikh should essentially be that which God almighty has given him according to His Will (Hukam). A woman's beauty lies in her smooth skin and rounded face while a man's beard signifies his masculinity, strength and virility. In a debate at Mecca, Guru Nanak explained his viewpoint regarding the Kesh (unshaven hair) to Pir Bahauddin in the following words reported in the Janam Sakhi (Traditional Story) : 
Pir Bahauddin: Why have, you, O Baba Nanak, overlooked both the Hindu and Muslim traditions in their entirety? 
Baba Nanak: Listen Bahauddin, I tell you that both the Hindus and the Muslims have degraded themselves by shaving their hair. 
Pir Bahauddin: Without the Muslim law, no one can become pure. Without circumcision, a man cannot receive honour in God's court. 
Baba Nanak: The real circumcision is to live in God's Will. One should die with the hair intact; the hair with which one is born. He who keeps the hair as God's trust, is really a great man. The first circumcision is the hair and keeping it on the head is to live in His Will. He who keeps the hair intact, lives by honest labour, and shuns other's right, is honoured by God. Some undergo circumcision, others cut holes in their ears; it is only the dishonest who try to tamper with God's gift of completeness of human form. 
Finally Guru Nanak declared that with a turban on, the human form becomes complete in all respects and the unshaven hair is the symbol of the one universal religion, which we all inherit at birth. 
The sanctity of keeping uncut hair (Kesh) with Keski (Turban) on has been observed by all Sikh Gurus (From Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) and it was Guru Arjan who wrote in Raag Maru (page 1084 of the Sikh Holy Book.) "_Sabat Surat Dastar Sira_" which means 'Keep the God-given form intact with a turban donned on your head'. The tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, the founder of the Khalsa, gave the command that these symbols (5 K's) are a must. These are a mode of discipline signifying the wearer's belongingness to the Khalsa. The five K's are a test of a Sikh's firmness and strength of his faith. They foster Brotherhood and a sense of unity. They make a Sikh look like the Guru himself and inspire him to follow the Guru's command. Guru Gobind Singh wrote the following about his Khalsa: "The Khalsa is my own special form I always manifest in the Sikhs (Khalsa). The Khalsa is my body and soul".


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## TGill (Oct 30, 2007)

Please don't talk like Pir bahaudin - Muslims can get many references from Koran that circumcision is required to get grace in God's dargah. Similarly you have got that hair are necessary, please explain the difference. 

The same Guru also says that hair is not important to be spiritually great in the form of Kabir.

- People who cut hair may not be gurus sikh but people who just keep hair and say that they are Guru's sikh are not sikhs for sure. Their ego of being great make them fall from that stature.


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## amar7979 (Oct 30, 2007)

*Veerji,*

*Most humbly i would like to reply..*
*I would not comment on the Muslim viewpoint on the subject. Each and every religion has certain fundamental commandments. The Sikhism is no exception, too. God did not add anything, including hair, to human body which could be termed as superfluous. Thus, trimming the hair amounts not only declining the gift given by God but also disfiguring the shape given to man by Akalpurkh i.e. Lord God. In other words, it can also be taken to mean that by so doing man takes pleasure in finding faults in the blue print prepared by God and thus showing off himself as better qualified and more competent than the creator Lord. In sum, this amount to endeavor equaling Him and even excelling Him by trying to improve upon His work. Ironically, the creation is getting zealous to override the Creator, thereby allowing ungratefulness to predominate. These hairs are the gift, which God bestows upon him while sending him on to this earth. It is another matter that except Sikhs nobody else endeavors to learn and abide by this will of Almighty. They also do not seem to be in a mood to value this precious Divine gift as much as they ought to. Man considers himself highly cultured. A follower of the Sikh faith does realize that God has blessed him with the sacred hair from his very birth, and these remain with him till his death.*
*If we look from the point of view of the naturalists we see that they believe the existence of two ways to live life. One is to live in conformity with nature and the other is to live in conflict with it. The first is the way of harmony and the second is the way of a conqueror who wishes to subjugate and dominate leading to personal and public nuisances. The Gurmet or the Sikh way is one which accepts no dichotomy between man and nature as is enjoined upon Sikhs by Guru Nanak in Bara Maha and Guru Gobind Singh in Akal Ustat and both these Banis serve as the foundation of the Sikh oral and orational practices*

*Concludingly…*

*I do agree that wearing 5K’s does not automatically make a good Sikh and in addition to this, wearing the 5 K’s without understanding their purpose is silly. The 5 K’s are not meaningless symbols, instead they are blessings which aid us in living a life revolving around God and submission to His Will.*


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## TGill (Oct 30, 2007)

I understand your point now Amarpreet ji and you are right in a way.

But just one last question. Assume a person is amritdhari, can he leave his kirpan in his check in luggage while he is flying to a foreign country or is that wrong ?


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## amar7979 (Oct 31, 2007)

Gill Sahib,

Im glad my efforts qualified your viewpoints.

This question itself could be a new thread of discussion.
_Kirpan_ (_kirpa_: mercy and _aan_: honour) symbolises power and freedom of spirit, and is a *'reminder'* to Sikhs to fight injustice and oppression and not an instrument of violence. 

Personally expressing my views ….Since the Kirpan symbolizes a spirit to fight injustice and as long as this spirit prevails within us, I don’t feel there’s any harm in leaving his/her kirpan in Check in Luggage while boarding a plane. See - until the other co-passengers on board can feel safe (and we all know what 9/11 has done about safety in the air...), I think that the Khalsa has a moral responsibility to ensure that the human beings whom *they are supposed to protect* actually feel safe.


New flight regulations requires Passengers traveling on an airplanes to place their kirpans in checked baggage only (not in cabin hand bags). While this procedure may not be acceptable to all, airplanes present unique security concerns, that mandate this policy.

Many organizations are working with government(s) to protect the free exercise of religion and the right to bear arms through their constitutions, states and regulations. 
Lets be optimistic on that and keep up the good spirit. A day will come my friend when the whole world will understand the difference between a ‘dagger’ and ‘Kirpan’ and admire the Kirpan as an article of faith.


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## TGill (Oct 31, 2007)

> Since the Kirpan symbolizes a spirit to fight injustice and as long as this spirit prevails within us, I don’t feel there’s any harm in leaving his/her kirpan in Check in Luggage while boarding a plane


 
Thank God !!


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## Damo_Singh (Nov 2, 2007)

I do not have long hair as I have just begun my journey into Sikhism; however, I will not cut my hair or shave my beard ever again.  I do not wear a turban, but as soon as I buy one and learn how to place it on my head, I will wear it with pride. I have none of the 5 K's 
but I hope to obtain and carry them with respect.  

As an American I often here ignorant remarks made about Sikhs who are mistaken for Muslims. Most of the Sikhs in my small American town are respected doctors of medicine.

Most working class Americans are angry and fearful since what has become known as 9/11.  They are suspicious of that which they don't understand.

I had a Hindu friend for years on the internet who always spoke of Sikhs with the utmost respect.

Here in America there is an expression that the nail that stick out is struck with the hammer.  I am sorry to hear of these young people who have been born into such a beautiful religion forsaking its traditions for fear of being a nail that sticks out.

Perhaps, I should hold my tongue until after I have become a Sikh.  I do not mean to offend anyone.  I was a soldier in Vietnam and I studied martial arts for nearly forty years, but as I learn more each day about the wealth of knowledge contained in the Sikh literature, I am nearly brought to tears by God's love.


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## simarjeet kaur (Nov 19, 2007)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh its really sad that even parents are not making their children aware of sikhism .more awareness should be made by organising camps bySGPC.ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AREAS .groundreality is that people are not aware because of iiliteracy.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 19, 2007)

Damo Singh Ji,



> Perhaps, I should hold my tongue until after I have become a Sikh.


 
Please don't! :u): This is the place to discuss, ask questions, express opinions, etc.

The way to learn and grow is to jump in and start swimming!

Gurfateh and Chardi Kala!:ice:

Mai


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## drkhalsa (Nov 20, 2007)

> Perhaps, I should hold my tongue until after I have become a Sikh. I do not mean to offend anyone. I was a soldier in Vietnam and I studied martial arts for nearly forty years, but as I learn more each day about the wealth of knowledge contained in the Sikh literature, I am nearly brought to tears by God's love.



Dear Friend ,
Dont hold anything back , its the right place to say everything

I am very glad to know about your martial Art skills . I hope you already know this but so say again Martial Art has got a very special place in the Sikh religion so you got already something on hand to teach other Sikhs

take care 

Jatinder Singh

P.S Just one personal question if you dont mind ( you can relpy in Personal Message) in which town do you live in , my curosity is related to Sikh docs you mentioned 


t


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## jaskaransingh (Dec 2, 2007)

listen i am 14 i wear my pag with pride and so do most of the scottsih youth because because of khalsa camps the youth are taught about and sikhi and half come back next year with dastar the problem is that there are not enough of these sikhi camps in punjab however theere are now more and more sikhs keeping their hair in jalandhar district anyway we should ban khanda necklaces and sikhi t-shirts bcos the waerers of these shirts are all monay the new genration is now fast becoming khalsa sikhs so start more khalsa camps and we shall reap the rewards


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## Sherab (Dec 2, 2007)

jaskaransingh said:


> listen i am 14 i wear my pag with pride and so do most of the scottsih youth because because of khalsa camps the youth are taught about and sikhi and half come back next year with dastar the problem is that there are not enough of these sikhi camps in punjab however theere are now more and more sikhs keeping their hair in jalandhar district anyway we should ban khanda necklaces and sikhi t-shirts bcos the waerers of these shirts are all monay the new genration is now fast becoming khalsa sikhs so start more khalsa camps and we shall reap the rewards


i agree


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 2, 2007)

jaskaransingh said:


> listen i am 14 i wear my pag with pride and so do most of the scottsih youth because because of khalsa camps the youth are taught about and sikhi and half come back next year with dastar the problem is that there are not enough of these sikhi camps in punjab however theere are now more and more sikhs keeping their hair in jalandhar district anyway we should ban khanda necklaces and sikhi t-shirts bcos the waerers of these shirts are all monay the new genration is now fast becoming khalsa sikhs so start more khalsa camps and we shall reap the rewards


 
You cheer me up!

Please write lots of posts like this!


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## jaskaransingh (Dec 3, 2007)

thanks but the point is that now u can take this to ur Gurdwara comitee and persuade them too do a camp during the holidays


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 3, 2007)

jaskaransingh said:


> listen i am 14 i wear my pag with pride and so do most of the scottsih youth because because of khalsa camps the youth are taught about and sikhi and half come back next year with dastar the problem is that there are not enough of these sikhi camps in punjab however theere are now more and more sikhs keeping their hair in jalandhar district anyway we should ban khanda necklaces and sikhi t-shirts bcos the waerers of these shirts are all monay the new genration is now fast becoming khalsa sikhs so start more khalsa camps and we shall reap the rewards


 

this is great to hear.   i hear similar things from young sikhs in parts of the US and in Canada.  sikhi camps really seem to be a driving force among todays youth.  

i know that there are camps india, but they are very costly so only the wealthy kids can go...  and a lot of people go to the indian camps from the US, so obviously they're not aimed at the average indian citizen.  i agree with you, organizing more affordable and accesible camps for young sikhs in india would be a great way to promote sikhi.


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## manmeetmanmeet (Dec 18, 2007)

In the past few months, I have been in discussions with many Sikh Youth, both who have and have-not cut their hair. Here are some of their arguments on this topic which I have tried to argue, sometimes winning & sometimes losing : 

1)  I am a follower of the preaching’s of my Gurus which they, by the will of the true lord,  left by means of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Granth Sahib does not tell me to cut or not to cut my hair. It is silent. It does not say whether one should be a vegetarian or eat non vegetarian. It is silent. Its Silence probably means that it wanted to leave these decisions to its Sikhs? To each and every Sikh's own free will. 

2) It is a common known fact that the institution of growing one's hair was instituted at the founding ceremony of the Khalsa panth at Anandpur Sahib by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the year 1699. Before that day - since almost 2 centuries before (from the founding of the Sikh religion) to that day, there was no requirement for the Sikhs to grow their hair. The first 9 Gurus did not ask for it. So if I were to say that I believe in the teachings of the first 9 Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib, and for the moment do not practice the preachings of the Tenth Guru only relating to keeping Kesh - for I still need to study, understand and find whats true for myself – does that entitle me to be a legitimate Sikh who can cut his hair? Were the Sikhs from late 15 Century to 1699 any less Sikhs just because the institution of growing one’s hair was not mandated by the then Gurus?

   3) Consider this hypothetical situation: If you have three people in front of you – 


Converter: who was born into a Sikh family and for some strange reason has decided      to convert to some other religion out of own free will. Now he is      converted and has cut his hair as the new religion in which he converted      to does not require him to grow his hair
Cutter: who is born into a Sikh family and cut his hair and intends to      continue leading his life in the same way as a Sikh. 
Balwant:, who is a Sikh, has not cut his hair or beard and does not      intend to do it in future either.
   All these 3 people have done the same amount of good deeds and bad deeds in their life and therefore rank equal in the way they conduct themselves with the external world. 
    Now rank these people in terms of who is better and who is worse? Try and reason out why you rank them in the way you do. Hereunder are some of the answers of people who were a part of this discussion: 

   On a scale of good to worse: 

   Comment 1:
Balwant – Good
Cutter – Bad 
Converter – Worse

   Balwant is a true Sikh, he leads his life the way Guru’s described. For a person who leaves his religion even out of his own free will is a coward, a disgrace and therefore deserves to be termed the Worst of the lot. Therefore, Converter is Worse of all. Cutter is bad because he did cut his hair and that is not allowed in our religion.  

   Comment 2:

Cutter: Good
Balwant: Bad
Converter: Worse

   Cutter is good because he has the will to choose whether he wishes to grow his hair or not and has chosen to not keep his hair. To choose what you believe in and stand by it - that takes courage. I admire courage in people to stand up for what they want. That is what the message of our religion is – is to stand up for what you believe in. Cutter believed in something and had the courage to get it. Also, I mean lets be real, Cutter only cut his hair, he still goes to the Gurudwara every now and then, he was born into a Sikh family, he listens to path sometimes, do we really feel he is bad? I mean he is one of us, he does what we do, and we are full of such people these days. He could have been a lot worse, but he is not except for cutting his hair. Let’s admit it, it’s the end of 2007, it is normal to have such cutters in each Sikh family. I mean technically, its still not the best way to go, but the reality is we have come to accept such people as still Sikhs and very much part of our families. Converter is definitely the worst. I mean I respect that he is entitled to his own free will but by doing what he did, he showed the Sikh religion down over the other religion that he embraced. He indirectly gave the message that Sikhism as a religion was not worth it and the other religion he embraced was better. Now, it is a known fact that the central message of all the religions is the same – One God, hurt no one, stand up for your rights and all. So he left one religion for another – that too when both end up teaching the same thing, that definitely is an insult to the first religion as it implies it’s teachings are not worth enough for achieving the end goal and that the other religion teaches better. Now if Converter had not believed in religion at all, and would have denounced his religion and not embraced any new religion, I would have still respected him, for he was doing something that he believed in and was not hurting (in a criminal way) anyone else in the process. But he didn’t do that. Man, I would like to meet this Converter and give him a bit of what I feel for him. Balwant is bad because for one, positions of good and worse are already taken and two that he is a normal guy, an average, he was born in a way, he was made to believe that Sikhism was good, was engraved in him in his childhood and he ended up believing in it. Good for him. I mean nothing wrong with that. Perfectly fine, that’s the way 90% of this world lives. Its just Ordinary. And to me, the ordinary, though not wrong, is just less appealing than the Courageous.

   Comment 3:

Converter: Good
Cutter: Bad
Balwant: Worse

   Yeah, before you all start beating me up – listen me out. Look at this Converter guy. Leave him alone. He wanted to do something he did it. Its none of our business. Second, what is the way of embracing a religion: By believing in its teachings, by practicing them, by being true to the religion and its teachers? What is the point of forcing him into something that he is not comfortable with. If he can reach God through some other channel, what’s the problem? We should be happy for him that atleast he took out time to think on how he should reach God, he contemplated the means and found it! How many of the other ‘Sikhs’ do it these days? Just because the means is not the same as your or my means does not mean that the mean is not there or the other mean is wrong. Religion is a means to God and one should take whatever mean to reach God. If that is Sikhism, good, if that is some other religion, Good. Third, what’s the point of retaining somebody in something against his will. By forcing somebody into something against one’s will, many ills have been conceived in our society. What would you say about a husband forcing his wife in bed against her wishes? You’d say that’s a crime – married or unmarried. Marriage does not give the husband the right to force his way through. You know what – just because he was born into a religion, does not give us the right to enforce the religion on him. Would you rather have him as a ‘Sikh’ with hair not believing in it day in or day out, or would you try to do your best to make him understand his religion. And still if you don’t succeed in convincing him, is it not your responsibility to back out and tell him – ok, do it the way you feel like doing. You are your own boss, not me. You talk of Courage as one of your criteria’s for being a Sikh. Well this man had the Courage to denounce a religion and embrace a new religion - out of his own free will – and face the wrath of you and me. He definitely scores top marks on courage. You talk of him insulting the religion. If all religions teach the same and you – yourself are convinced of the solidarity of your religion – are you insecure to construe this act of his as a showing down of your religion? Do you think he or his act is even capable to show our religion down? Another point of view for you: my friend. If the act of leaving something you are born in makes you a disgrace, then what about you, you were born in India. You left your country, and shifted base to US. For what - some money, a better life-style, an opportunity to date a few firangis downtown? You converted your identity you were born into – into a different one. Does that make you any less-offender than Converter? Should India put you in jail for that? You might say Oh – you cant even compare this with religion. Oh yeah, tell me how can we compare the two? Let me explain it another way – You left your mother, your retired father back home. You’re the only son. Does your religion not teach you to take care of your family. Does your Dharma not haunt you day in or day out. If you can live with that and sleep peacefully every night, you are certainly not doing a good job following your Guru’s teachings. So tell me now, is Converter any better or are you any worse? As for Cutter and Balwant, I really don’t care. I just put them there to get your attention and to hot up a bit of emotions. They are all equal to me. I just wanted to make a point. Point being that any ‘dutiful’ Sikh - including me a couple of years back – would have ranked Converter in the Worse position. But did our Gurus really wanted to empower us for being able to pass negative judgments on people Did they fight that battle to make us a tiny bit Orthodox? Or were they fighting the Orthodoxy? Do you really think you have the capacity to Judge? The right to Judge? When God did not judge while creating its people, how can you Judge their actions?


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## Astroboy (Dec 18, 2007)

*" A sikh without his flowing hair is a Sehajdhari."* 

*To what extent would this statement hold as truth ?*


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## FiveLovedOnes (Dec 18, 2007)

*Sat Siri Akal
                    Hairs n turban only add to external appearance n one who thinks he/she is complete with all this alone is in utter mistake or illusion.Guru gave men appearance of a Lion n a women a lioness(both were made warriors for life) n so kesh covered with dastaar is important n dastaar must be covered with sharp rings so that no one(enemy or sikhs envy struck men) should not reach a sikh's crown.This dress is of a Lion a warrior but noone become a warrior alone by wearing dress of a lion.It will be then like a donkey wearing a Lion's skin declaring himself as Lion.To become a Lion warrior is the most hardest part that most sikhs r missing now-a-days.A sikh becomes a Lion warriors if he listens to mighty Lion's army king-Guru Gobind Singh-THE MIGHTIEST OF ALL.(Noone is most stronger than Nirankar's Lion) n SGGS Ji Maharaj n follows Guru thru Shaastar practice many hrs,running many miles,marching everyday many miles,play power games like Kushti(Wrestling),others,cutting down ur sleep n relaxation.Most Sikhs r missing the difficult part.Nothing is easy on Guru Gobind Singh Ji's path.Without doing extreme workout n exercise n weapons training everyday many many hrs noone turns a Lion.
Anyone who is born in sikh family becomes a sikh of guru Gobind Singh only when  he work hard n fight back his/her mind to become:

1. A SIKH  -    Always learning throughout the life n keep on following it even he/she is going opposite to the world's way.


2. A WARRIOR N LION  -  A name Lion is added to every sikh 's name just to remind them that thay have to practice weapons,wear weapons,exercise many hrs a day daily,always remain a ready-to-attack evil army n perish them without fear n full strength,March everyday instead of walking(lazy men walk while Lions March), everything else that transforms a Sikh-family-born men n women into Lions n Lionesses.


3.   A KHALSA    -    To become true roaring Warrior n saint one's mind must listen ONLY N ONLY Mighty Guru's words n must always tune to Guru's feet.Materialistic  attraction can easily turn one away from Guru n so one must fight back every moment everyday with his mind to turn himself/herself away from materialistic-lure n listen to mighty Guru n prepare as Lion so Khalsa part is most important of all.

A person who obeys all these three rules of Mighty Guru Gobind Singh(The Mighty King of Kings of Mighty Lions N Lionesses Army) alone is a true warrior Sikh-A Sikh-Khalsa-Lion Of Guru.Others r only donkeys who have put On Lion's Skin over their body.Nothing is achieved by talking n writing big easys on internet n watching millions of videos on youtube,sikhitube,etc.
All is achieved by doing,by perfoming ,by fulfilling Guru's words.That's the hardest part.Move ur body to limits n mind to limits to achieve what Guru wants his sikh to achieve.Without hard part nothing can be achieved.Guru has given u all the power n strength n so open it n use it n grow it.Push ,Push,Push urself to the Limits O mighty Lions of Guru Gobind Singh.

People who r weak alone loses their hairs,dastaar n Guru's mighty words never penetrate their mind.They r like foolish who never workout,never push their body to exercise n push it to limits n prepare to become mighty Lion-Warrior Of Guru Gobind Singh.Such people become easy prey to outside world.Girls of sikhs become easy prey to outsiders becoz they never work-out to become Guru's Lionesses n his army warriors n love mirror more than Guru's Mighty path.We feel pity on such easy prey cowards.

Read Guru Gobind Singh Said:

"Khatri ko put hon Bahaman ko nahi"-Guru Gobind Singh Ji-The mighty King of Lion's Army.

I accept only khatri (a warrior who prepares everyday thru exercises n weapon's practice) n fight for weak n protection of saints is alone my beloved.Those who fail to wear weapons,practice weapons everyday many hrs like in real war-field,never exercise,etc r not my sikhs.They r bahamins who turned back to Guru when called to joined Guru's army.
A soldier's external form n inner might BOTH make one a true saint-warrior n missing one render him/her a disobeyer of Guru Gobind Singh.
Hope all sikhs world around have understood what i mean.Guru is with u all n so prepare to be Lions-warriors.Also I will be delighted to correct me for my wrong n will be glad if more knowledge of Guru is added to my side.Bole Sonehal Sat Siri Akal.
*


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## amarjitmadan (Dec 23, 2007)

I would like to say that the lessons have to start at home without any lectures but by example. Darbar sahib da Parkash with a few minutes of   paath. Going to Gurdawara on a regular basis and doing sewa and from time to time telling children about history of the religion,helping the needy irrespective and Daswand.Often the excuse is lack of time  in the  morning,  all it means is to get up twenty minutes earlier by signing off 20minutes earlier at night.It is not a lost cause we are talking about.


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## FiveLovedOnes (Dec 23, 2007)

amarjitmadan said:


> I would like to say that the lessons have to start at home without any lectures but by example. Darbar sahib da Parkash with a few minutes of   paath. Going to Gurdawara on a regular basis and doing sewa and from time to time telling children about history of the religion,helping the needy irrespective and Daswand.Often the excuse is lack of time  in the  morning,  all it means is to get up twenty minutes earlier by signing off 20minutes earlier at night.It is not a lost cause we are talking about.



*Guru says Aath(Eight) Pahar Aradiah Puran Satgur Gyan.

So sleep should be too less.But it is too difficult to do this without ' Man Jitay Jag Jeeta' determination n lot lot of Exercise.
If one doesn't exercise a lot for many hrs a day he/she will sleep more n will go into deep sleep becoz without our body organs n hundreds of Enzymes not reaching their Peak performance level (possible only with exercise) our body turns night cycle more longer.This is not right for healthy body for longer period n one face lots of problems as one age.Bad results of excessive sleep n longer night cycle appears only after many years n we blame aging for this but this is not true.Sleep should be short n within very short time night cycle should be over n one should become fresh like in the morning(only for late waking -up people.Ha ha....) n So Guru Ji made us soldiers n gave us wonderful exercises like Gatka,Horse riding ,running,marching long distances n many others(That we lost already).But we can  add modern day exercises to Guru's Exercises like Gym,Wrestling,Kabbaddi,others n keep ourself busy exercising for many hours during day till we go to sleep.exercise can range from light to heavy.Even walking is also an exercise but too light.Marching like soldier is light category exercise while running is medium weight exercise.Gym, wrestling,Kabbadi n weight lifting come under the category of heavy-weight exercises.One must include all ranges of exercises in whole day.
We can remember Guru ji even while exercising.Right!:{;o:

Old sikhs sang praises of Guru ji even while fighting  with Mugal forces so why can't we.

Our day should go doing our work n exercising while after 12:00 at night our body becomes too dull for any exercise even walking exercise.So till u sleep keep doing some exercise including marching,walking n others.Go to sleep n wake up very early.It will be too easy then provided u did lot of exercise during daylight n sincerely.For beginner alarm clock will be required n will find difficult to rise that early.Body doesn't allow any change in itself easily.It takes few days to adjust to new lifestyle.

Now time for full-time naam simran begins after waking up.

Early time is all calm n atmosphere is perfect to join surat with Kartar.Do paath,sing n listen kirtan till morning sun shower its light on surroundings.
"Satgur ka jo sikhs akaveh palkey ud har naam diavey"

After sunrise time of remembering Guru is only in Gatka fields,exercising centres n while exercising,while working,walking n others.

Guru Ji made nothing easy btw.But tough sikhs were successful n so can u too.Just follow the formula" Man jita Jag Jeet" of Tan Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji N fight back laziness n body's resistance to accept change.

Life is not easy friends but those who follow tough lifestyle of Guru ji really enjoy it while other perish in Kam,Krodh,Lob,Moh N Ahankar.their minds r sucked by sexual desires,greed n all stupid things of the world around.

All evils r wiped immediately on listening Gurubani with powerful mind.Power of Guru Shabad n Guru's tough lifestyle & Discipline is great n beyond words.

If sikhs accept hardship of Naam Simran very early in the morning n then involving oneself in exercises for many hrs during long day time n accept tough lifestyle n discipline given by Guru Gobind Singh then mind will be in perfect state all time.Such mind can never do stupid acts of giving away hairs n turban n Guru's mighty words always keep nourishing their mind which we made strong by less sleep,Naam Simran,Paath,Kirtan n tremendrous amount of exercises during whole day.

 Simple in saying though but Guru's path is too difficult.Right! :advocate:  

jeh toh prem kelan ka chahoh sir dar tali gali moori avoo:advocate:

Clearly Guru's marg is to lead such tough life where mind must be nourished by lot of nutrients thru exercises n Guru Shabad.
That's why guru created Khalsa only when both saint n soldier form was to be infused in them  on the ocassion of Baisakhi.

Saint means Sikh minds infused with Shabad power n Soldier means Sikh minds infused with tough lifestyle,strict discipline ,exercises n battles.
Hope many will agree thou i tried to include both scientific reasoning n Guru's guidance to make all understand better who we r n how should we live our daily life n make our generations learn sikhi better so they can never deviate from Guru's tough Marg.

Bol Chuk mafi.

Sat Siri Akal to all.
*


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## robby_85 (Jan 22, 2008)

I'll tell u why they are cutting hair.....because thats what the girls want
Sikh girls of today prefer a clean shaven boy with no turban than a Sardar.
gurudwara's should teach these girls something about our religion.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 22, 2008)

robby_85 said:


> I'll tell u why they are cutting hair.....because thats what the girls want
> Sikh girls of today prefer a clean shaven boy with no turban than a Sardar.
> gurudwara's should teach these girls something about our religion.




i'm sick to death of hearing this.  i've asked many guys why they cut their hair and not a single one ever said they did it for girls.   they did it for work, because they're afraid of harassment, because they want to look "cool" and fashionable,  because they aren't religious and see no point in keeping it...  i've heard as many different reasons as there are guys, but i've never heard of anyone doing it for girls.

btw, all the girls i know are looking for gursikhs.  maybe you know the wrong girls. :hmm:


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## amarjitmadan (Jan 22, 2008)

robby_85 said:


> I'll tell u why they are cutting hair.....because thats what the girls want
> Sikh girls of today prefer a clean shaven boy with no turban than a Sardar.
> gurudwara's should teach these girls something about our religion.


There is no short cut or easy way to achieve it.
Gurdawaras will come into  picture when children have a habit of going with devotion and not just for social gathering.Values of life have to be taught by parents and shown by their own deeds when we leave India we leave behind all good points and adopt the negatives of Western culture.(not all most of us) that is the beginning.I am not sure where our community is headed to but still a very good one in most aspects of life.


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## Sherab (Jan 23, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> i'm sick to death of hearing this.  i've asked many guys why they cut their hair and not a single one ever said they did it for girls.   they did it for work, because they're afraid of harassment, because they want to look "cool" and fashionable,  because they aren't religious and see no point in keeping it...  i've heard as many different reasons as there are guys, but i've never heard of anyone doing it for girls.
> 
> btw, all the girls i know are looking for gursikhs.  maybe you know the wrong girls. :hmm:


Can i meet some of those girls? :wink::shy:

Jasleen ji, i'm joking.

However on the topic, my girlfriend (who got me into sikhi) prefer me without a patka, but doesn't mind if i keep kesh. To be a tad public about this, i just wish i *could* find a girl who prefer turbanned/patka'd men. :2:

I think part of it is, Jasleen, is that guys are unwilling to work for anything to make something else work. or they ASSUME (as i do) no one likes men with patka or turban/ I think maybe, it is because of a few insulting remarks by those that do not like turbanned men, we assume, all are the same.

It is simply loss of hope, and peer pressure.

However, those are not valid excuses, butto those whow ere never gursikhs in the first place.. it could be enough to cripple their sikhi.


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## kds1980 (Jan 23, 2008)

> However on the topic, my girlfriend (who got me into sikhi) prefer me without a patka, but doesn't mind if i keep kesh. To be a tad public about this, i just wish i *could* find a girl who prefer turbanned/patka'd men.



How could a sikh man keep his kesh without wearing patka or turban? just ask her


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 26, 2008)

tie a pony


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> tie a pony


gotta keep head covered though, ji


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 26, 2008)

why?


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## Sherab (Jan 26, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> why?


respect for god and hygenical reasons (keeps hair cleaner, assuming you also clean your head covering, etc


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 26, 2008)

does God feel offended?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 30, 2008)

> does God feel offended?


 
No.  Vaheguru is without anger.

The need to be respectful of God is our need, not hers/his/its.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 30, 2008)

thx mai ji

what happens when this need is fulfilled?


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## Sherab (Jan 30, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> thx mai ji
> 
> what happens when this need is fulfilled?


Bty living in accordance with waheguru, not only do we get anand, and meditation on the shabad, we also get the naam


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 30, 2008)

how do you know how Waheguru wants us to live?

as Mai ji said and is written in SGGS, God is above anger.


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## KulwantK (Jan 31, 2008)

Sat Nam, Ji
Excellent!-"Why try to fit in when you were only born to stand out"-how true!  Thank you!  In fact, you may have just written the key to getting Sikh men to keep their hair, beard and turban, and to encourage the Sikh women to keep hair and turban, too!  One of the reasons we are to keep these things is for us to not try to hide, but to be visible so people in need can come to us for help.  When I began keeping hair and turban, it started to happen, and continues- people are always asking for my help, and I am happy to give it.  If I can't directly, I get them to someone who can.  It's sewa, and that is one of the things we do for the community at large.  Perhaps that is one reason why there are those who do not wish to keep hair and turban- maybe they could be afraid of doing this sewa, perhaps?  If so, why would they be reluctant to take on this sewa?  A fear of responsibility, maybe?  Those who do not engage their responsibilities will lose their rights.  This could be a point to bring up to those who are thinking about not keeping hair, beard and turban.  Helping others no matter who they are is one of the big points of Sikhism.  Help others, and God and Guru shall help you, we could say to those who are thinking about not keeping hair, beard and turban.
Wahe Guru,
Kulwant


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## Sherab (Jan 31, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> how do you know how Waheguru wants us to live?
> 
> as Mai ji said and is written in SGGS, God is above anger.



I think you should study jap ji sahib for the meaning of thay, but i will get you started.

Renounce ego, and keep god in mind at all times, so you do not entertain your ego. that would be what the first or second verse implies, i forget which verse it is.

nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]2] (1-10, jpu, mÚ 1)
naanak hukmai jay bujhai ta ha-umai kahai na ko-ay. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jan 31, 2008)

Sherab said:


> respect for god and hygenical reasons (keeps hair cleaner, assuming you also clean your head covering, etc



*Sat Siri Akal

**Following sikhi n obeying Guru's words is difficult but by following Guru's every word one become super strong from mind n body.Kesh r blessings of guruji n must be held with great honor n respect.Glowing hairs r indication of great health while rough n broken hairs indicate bad health of inside system particularly digestive system n also an indication that one is not following Guruji 's another message as under:

"Thora Sonvey Thora he Khavey Gursikh sohey Sahaj Samavey."

A gursikh is one who sleeps less n eat just desired(little belly full n no overeating n with gap of next hunger call from within).Such gursikhs r always calm at mind n remain immersed in naam ras.Only such gursikhs r free of any health problems n possess glowing hairs.hairs r indicators that a gursikh is following guruji's rule of less eating (just desired) n less sleeping n beyond.

Following Guru is too important to overcome all health problems of today n to stay calm,relaxed n at peace all time.Great anand is experienced when following Guru's words.Mind is always under one's command n evils within never bother a sikh.So why wait to follow whatever guruji says.
Sat Siri Akal 




*


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## carolineislands (Apr 13, 2008)

I think that any man who would trade the commanding presence of a Sikh man in dastar for looking like anyone else out on the street is just crazy.  Check out these men!

House of Waris - Press Clippings | Main | 11 of 84
Meet Mr. Singhs 2007
http://www.sikhpoint.com/community/articles/images/MrSingh2.jpg
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20071121/aplus2.jpg
http://www.vothphoto.com/recent/india 2004/images/gallery_1/India-2004-442.jpg
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/hello/1328287/700/IMG_2201-2005.06.27-16.55.30.jpg
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/1/14/Sikh_flamethrower.jpg
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/7/76/Lakhmi_Chand_Singh_M.jpg
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/hello/1328287/700/IMG_8599-2005.06.14-17.22.37.jpg
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/uploaded_images/IMG_6502-748724.JPG
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/uploaded_images/DSCN0398-745848.JPG


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## FiveLovedOnes (Apr 13, 2008)

*True my friend.Has anyone seen a Lion hiding in jungle.It walks straight as the king of Jungle n fears nothing.Capable of killing world biggest land animals like elephants n giraffes it stands out as the most powerful king of the land....Guru made us lions n so we must stand-out like Lions.We should fear nothing...Eat good with ur belly TIGHT like lions do.Lions weight is nearly 200-250 kgs while it can eat 40 kgs of its diet at a time during a day i.e nearly 1/5 of its body weight n then fight back more than one lion who dare to enter the pride or caputre his territory....

Looking at the qualities in sikhs Guru honoured us with the crown of Lionship n we must retain it always...Be a lion,become a lion,......LIONS FEAR NOTHING..THEY FIGHT BACK THE BIG GOVTS N ERADICATE THE BIG EMPIRES...JUST LIKE WE ERASED THE ENTIRE MUGAL EMPIRE..FEW HUNDREDS VS THOUSANDS N STILL LIONS WERE THE WINNER....SO BE A GURU KA LION....KING N ONLY KING..ALWAYS...A SIKH WITHOUT HAIRS N TURBAN HOLDS NO CROWN OF A LION....
*


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## Astroboy (Apr 13, 2008)

KulwantK said:


> When I began keeping hair and turban, it started to happen, and continues- people are always asking for my help, and I am happy to give it. If I can't directly, I get them to someone who can. It's sewa, and that is one of the things we do for the community at large. Perhaps that is one reason why there are those who do not wish to keep hair and turban- maybe they could be afraid of doing this sewa, perhaps? If so, why would they be reluctant to take on this sewa? A fear of responsibility, maybe? Those who do not engage their responsibilities will lose their rights. This could be a point to bring up to those who are thinking about not keeping hair, beard and turban. Helping others no matter who they are is one of the big points of Sikhism. Help others, and God and Guru shall help you, we could say to those who are thinking about not keeping hair, beard and turban.
> Wahe Guru,
> Kulwant


 

ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਉਚ ਦੁਮਾਲੜਾ ॥
मै गुर मिलि उच दुमालड़ा ॥
Mai gur mil ucẖḏumālṛā.
I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.
*Guru Arjan Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

ਖੂਬੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਗਰੀ ਮੀਠੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਬੋਲ ॥
खूबु तेरी पगरी मीठे तेरे बोल ॥
Kẖūb ṯėrī pagrī mīṯẖė ṯėrė bol.
How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.
*Devotee Namdev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## Astroboy (Apr 13, 2008)

*Dasam Granth Sahib*

Page 380, Line 5
Their necklaces of gems glistened and their turbans looked graceful on the heads of both the warriors of the same age.

Page 650, Line 5
The forces of both sides moved for mutual union; all of them had tied red turbans and they looked very impressive filled with joy and gaiety;

Page 1048, Line 1
His turban was removed and tying his hands and feet, he was thrown in a well; no one advised for his release and contemplated to kill him.2056.


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## carolineislands (Apr 13, 2008)

Is it just me or is the dastar on the upswing here in the States?  Seems like I see more and more of them but I don't know if it's just because I notice them now or if they really are becoming more common.  It seems like Western Sikhs are so EXCITED about Sikhi!  Know what I mean?


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## svea00 (Apr 14, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I think that any man who would trade the commanding presence of a Sikh man in dastar for looking like anyone else out on the street is just crazy.  Check out these men!
> 
> House of Waris - Press Clippings | Main | 11 of 84
> Meet Mr. Singhs 2007
> ...



.... I see, I see. A lot of black power from your side :wink:.
Nice ones, anyway.


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## carolineislands (Apr 14, 2008)

svea00 said:


> .... I see, I see. A lot of black power from your side :wink:.
> Nice ones, anyway.


busted.  :whisling:

If I knew how to insert a photo in these posts I'd show you a picture of my husband (who so kindly allows me to practice tying dastar on him).  But you'd have to put on your sunglasses first, cuz he's so gorgeous he'd knock your eyes out.


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## svea00 (Apr 14, 2008)

you are sweet!


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 14, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I think that any man who would trade the commanding presence of a Sikh man in dastar for looking like anyone else out on the street is just crazy. Check out these men!


 

Young men complain that the young ladies insist on a man with a naked face and shorn head hairs. 

[Note aside: I don't use 'clean-shaven' as that implies having the facial hairs may be dirty.]

Especially after looking at all those extremely handsome. masculine-looking keshdhari men, :ice: I would amend your statement slightly, if I may.

I think that any_*woman* _who would trade the commanding presence of a Sikh man in dastar for one looking like everyone else out on the street is just crazy. :crazy:  Believe me, if the young women insist on unshorn hairs on their men, the men will soon enough quit this cutting.


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## carolineislands (Apr 14, 2008)

Mai said:


> ... I think that any_*woman* _who would trade the commanding presence of a Sikh man in dastar for one looking like everyone else out on the street is just crazy. :crazy:



I completely AGREE.  I can't imagine not seeing the beauty in a Sikh man with his turban, long hair and flowing beard.  Wow...  My husband thinks himself as a Christian but he has been reading SGGS with me and about 3 months ago he just up and quit cutting his hair and beard.  
I was like -- :{;o: Then he started letting me practice tying dastar on him.  I've noticed the past few weeks he's been asking me to tie a dastar on him because he says they just feel good.  I can't keep my eyes off him.






> Believe me, if the young women insist on unshorn hairs on their men, the men will soon enough quit this cutting.


That's so true.  Those girls are caught up in peer pressure I guess.  They're fighting a battle as well.   I know one young man whose girlfriend broke up with him when he stopped cutting hairs and put on a turban.  He was really hurt but he let her go and kept on following his Guru, even stepping it up a notch wearing 5 Ks and even the longs shirts (forgot what their called).  Eventually she realized what a dope she'd been and went back to him.  I was so impressed by his commitment that he would let the girl walk away even though he loved her... and at such a young age.  I think he's only 17 or 18.

Amazing, huh?  Girls need to get their heads on straight.  And sometimes a man who will let her go rather than compromise his faith will help a girl do that.  :wink:


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## pk70 (Apr 16, 2008)

*I am not sure if turban can make any one lion or more beautiful than others; however, if one is not in a Sikh attire( Turban and 5 Ks), he has to tell others who is  he, Hindu, CHritian, Muslim , Bhodhism etc contrary to that,  one who is in a Sikh attire needs not any introduction, that is the beauty I have been enjoying for a long time. :shy:
*


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 16, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I've noticed the past few weeks he's been asking me to tie a dastar on him because he says they just feel good. I can't keep my eyes off him.


 
This seems to be a well-kept secret. I had a major stroke about 2 years ago and have had a splitting headache ever since. I can't take most OTC painkillers and won't take intoxicants. I have found the only relief I can get is a well-tied dastar. The relief is complete! Not a bit of pain!

My first husband (my one true love and all that) wouldn't let me see him without his turban until our wedding night; even then he was a bit relunctant. But the wait was worth it.  His turban made his kesh very special, something for just the two of us to share.  I haven't heard this expressed publicly by other married women,  but I know others share my feelings. 

I was always so proud to be seen with him; his dignity was incredible. (All right, he was very handsome, too, but even if he hadn't been...)

Something happens to a Sikh man when he ties a turban. The pride, dignity, beauty just appear. The back is a little straighter, the whole attitude just a little stronger, more confident. A lot of the attraction toward a man in a turban comes from those. pk70 is so right about that. The same change comes about in a woman, as well. Of course! And I always feel good whenever I see a visible Sikh.

Can a turban make one lion more beautiful than another? Certainly, if that lion is _your _lion, the one you love!:shy:

But 'A Sikh without his flowing hair and turban,' to me, at least, is a sad lion.:8-


(Note to someone: Can we get some turbaned smilies, please?)


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## pk70 (Apr 16, 2008)

But 'A Sikh without his flowing hair and turban,' to me, at least, is a sad lion.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





*It is true but hilarious.*


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2008)

I say yes Mai to turbaned smilies. And the devil smiley is not working again. Drat!!!

What I want to share is this: no surprise that a turban relieves severe headaches. An old southern Italian folk remedy for all kinds of headaches is to tie a bandana tightly around the head at the level of the temples. This will get you through a migraine headache and won't upset your stomach the way medication does. Turbans work!


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## FiveLovedOnes (Apr 17, 2008)

pk70 said:


> But 'A Sikh without his flowing hair and turban,' to me, at least, is a sad lion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*A lion never hides.Lion is the king n never afraid of anyone.A sikh is a lion of Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj..The person who cuts his hairs n remove his turban is actually a coward trying to hide himself in some corner while a lion sikh walks with his head up n with his bold bright turban as his crown in the crowd..fearing nothing...:}{}{}:

Please refrain from using antagonistic language. 

A guru ka lion is capable of fighting hundreds without fear..Recent example is Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindrawale with his tiny force of hardly 200-300 true lions wiped out more than 200,000 sheep indian army.ha ha...........Chak teh phatte Sant Ji neh....Ha ha.....:}{}{}:
*


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## carolineislands (Apr 17, 2008)

Tying a bandana or scarf tightly around your head is also a migraine remedy in Haiti.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 17, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> I say yes Mai to turbaned smilies. And the devil smiley is not working again. Drat!!!
> 
> What I want to share is this: no surprise that a turban relieves severe headaches. An old southern Italian folk remedy for all kinds of headaches is to tie a bandana tightly around the head at the level of the temples. This will get you through a migraine headache and won't upset your stomach the way medication does. Turbans work!


I dont notice I  have a headache until I take off my turban..... :hmm:


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 17, 2008)

Mai said:


> But 'A Sikh without his flowing hair and turban,' to me, at least, is a sad lion.:8-
> 
> 
> (Note to someone: Can we get some turbaned smilies, please?)


Ya, I mean we gotta keep the smilies happy too you know. :roll:
:}{}{}: heehee, why not?


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> I dont notice I  have a headache until I take off my turban..... :hmm:



See - So more evidence! Why am I amazed?


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## Sikh Chela (Sep 12, 2008)

Sat Sri Akal to all, 

Stating that the reason for keeping long hair is 'because God gave you hair' is juvinille.  God also gave you many other body parts which you end up removing... as someone mentioned earlier your fingernails and toenails.  God gave you those didn't He?  Or was that some other entity?  Why then do you cut your nails?  Why do many people get their appendix removed?  How about wisdom teeth?  Is Sikhi against dentists then?  See how juvinille it gets?  I don't have anything against keeping long hair but please don't dumb it down to such a contradictory and low level.  There may be a scientific or credible reason for keeping long hair but I do not know of it, nor do I feel the need to justify it.  My belief is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji needed to create a distinct army in trying times.

Is Sikhi not actually declining?  Any statistics that I can find state that it is.  Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, followed by Christianity.  Why are these religions able to grow while Sikhi is not?  I believe that it may have something to do with the focus on the turban and keeping long hair.  The problem is that true Sikhi is not being progressed and propigated.  The true message of Nanak and the GGS is not being told to our own children, much less the rest of the world.  Rather, those in charge are worried about people cutting their hair.  

True Sikhi is much much deeper than long hair and a turban.  Not that I have a problem with long hair or turbans but these should not be the focus of our religion.  Keeping kesh and wearing a turban is a priviledge and shows utmost respect to all the Khalsa who have sacraficed for Sikhi.  But we must remember that these great martyrs sacraficed for the beliefs  and values of Sikhi, and not for simply the physical hair on their heads.

Sikhi's (recent) focus on the turban has has confused us and made many of us (especially non-amridharis and westerners) forget what Sikhi is really all about.  Some of us never really get a chance to learn because there is such a strong focus on hair that we are not given the opportunity to learn anything else.  It seems like a condition: "if you want to be a Sikh, grow your hair first... otherwise you are just a fake."   From reading the posts on this site it is obvious that most people that visit this site have some understanding of Sikh doctrines and most seem to have read at least parts of the GGS.  But how many, out of the four hundred thousand or so Sikhs born in North America actually have read the GGS?  I can guarantee they are few and far between.

In fact I resent the comments of some bloggers that those who do not have unshorn hair are not Sikhs!  *Well, I have my hair cut and I am a proud Sikh*, *and no one can stop me from claiming so.*  One post actually said that people without turbans shouldn't be allowed in Gurdhwaras!  Really?  Do these people even know how Sikhism came about?  It is a faith open to all: short, tall, dark, fair, bald, ugly, pretty, monay, etc.  Ideally there is absolutely no discrimination in Sikhi, whether upon physical apprearance, caste, creed, race, or otherwise.  Then how is it that our own are discriminating against us?   

A Sikh.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 12, 2008)

Sikh Chela said:


> Sat Sri Akal to all,
> 
> *Stating that the reason for keeping long hair is 'because God gave you hair' is juvinille.  God also gave you many other body parts which you end up removing... as someone mentioned earlier your fingernails and toenails.  God gave you those didn't He?  Or was that some other entity?  Why then do you cut your nails?  Why do many people get their appendix removed?  How about wisdom teeth?  Is Sikhi against dentists then?  See how juvinille it gets?*  I don't have anything against keeping long hair but please don't dumb it down to such a contradictory and low level.  There may be a scientific or credible reason for keeping long hair but I do not know of it, nor do I feel the need to justify it.  *My belief is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji needed to create a distinct army in trying times.*
> 
> ...



1. Its actually GURU JIS HUKM to keep the Five Kakaars. Since Guru Ji didnt say Dont cut toe nails/pull out defective teeth etc etc..its OK to cut nails, go to the dentist etc etc. But HE did say..KEEP YOUR HAIR INTACT...so I do. I dont think thats Juvenile.... no as a matter of fact its Maturity. Its not "juvenility" to Love and follow ones GURU...to the LETTER/SPIRIT.

2. Sikhs who were Martyred..were just given ONE CHOICE - CUT your Hair !! or DIE.
Best example is Bhai TARU SINGH....whose SCALP was REMOVED since he refused to cut his hair. Its totally FALSE to keep the HAIR out of this aspect of Sikh History. HAIR was and IS..100% Part and parcel. ONLY those Heads that had LONG HAIR INTACT were worth the 80 Rupee PRIZE MONEY !!! Many unscrupulous people cut off the HEADS of WOMEN and GIRLS....to claim the 80 rupee prize....claiming these are heads of YOUNG SIKHS !!!

3. GURBANI is proof that its so very very very EASY..to just keep hair....it GROWS without any effort !!! YES you are right that SIKHI is NOT EASY....its NOT just long hair and beards. GURBANI tells us....YOU HAVE SHAVED YOUR HEAD CLEAN........OH BUT YOU FAILED TO SHAVE YOUR MANN OF ITS EVIL DEEDS !!! Bhagat Kabir JI !!! meaning whats the point ?? ( in BOTH..that is "keeping" long hair or "Shaved head" BUT with NO SIKHI WITHIN.
SO IF I am going to have work so hard to CULTIVATE INNER SIKHI..clean my MANN of its evil....so I would RATHER follow the Bhagtas, the GURUS..the Sahibzadahs..the Hundreds of Thousands of Sikh Martyrs..who KEPT LONG HAIR..and work towards INNER SIKHI..rather than be a "shaved head"....doing the SAME THING ???? That way I wont have to do ANYTHING..my hair will keep growing naturally....but as  a shaved head..i will have to visit the BARBER...pay good money. to have him PAW my face and head all over......waste money on shaving blades etc etc !!! Keeping Hair is a better bargain ?? dotn you think ??
4.
Your beleif about Guru Gobind Singh Ji is wrong...GURU NANAK JI had long hair..Long flowing beard..and wore a Dastaar..so did ALL the following GURUS.
The ARMY began long before Guru Gobind Singh Ji.....its Bhagat KABIR JI who demans SIR DHAR GALI MERI AAO....come to me with head on palm..Gaggan Damama Bajio...WAR CRY of Dharma...the Khalsa war agaisnt tyranny began long long before 1469...and certainly long before 1699...0r 1708.... Were all the GURUS 'keeping" long hair etc just for the FUN of IT.... why didnt at least one..(just one out of 10) discard the long hair ??? Why not a single Sikh from Guru Times to the most trying times DISCARD hair to LIVE....Rememeber the HAIR/DASTAAR was the ONE and ONLY THING that could lead to Capture and CERTAIN DEATH - 1708- 1840 !!! Cut your hair..and no one knows who is Sikh/Hindu/Muslim !!!??? why not remain that way..and save so many lives ?? why indeed ?? WHY keep hair and court certain DEATH ??
5. Sikhi in "decline" ?? a widely held opinion..but WRONG. The KHALSA was NEVER in vast numbers..or Majority at any time...even in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs rule..Sikh KINGDOM..but SIKHS still in MINORITY.
A reversal of sorts is happening though.... for each PUNJABI sikh who shaves....another NEW SIKH emerges...one that is complete in Banna and Bani...look at the Western Sikhs....a growing number...and certainly more proud of their BANNA than any Punjabi sikhs i know..their SINGHANEES wear DASTAARS in much larger numbers than Punjabi FEMALES (sikhs). Goes to prove that Sikhi is UNIVERSAL..and not birthright of the punjabis..good riddance to punjabis who shave off. The Full Banna Sikh is in full RESURGANCE in canada UK..USA....welcome !!! just look at any picture of a Sikh Procession nagar kirtan in Vancouver..Surrey..New York...SEA of ..dastaars everywhere....compared to a Gurdass Mann concert in Punjab..a rag tag crowd of ghoneh monehs...Sikhi is NOT in Decline....in Punjab..yes..but not elsewhere...
6. I AGREE 100% with you that those "dastarees" calling names to "shavees" are plain inconsiderate. SIKHI is NOT their private domain. Its NOT the Private domain of ANYONE ( yes shavees too like to claim a lot of things..like I am a good sikh "inside"..ha ha ha..love that !!! They make it sound SO EASSSSSSYYYYYYY !! BUT GURBANI says the EXACT OPPOSITE...inisde sikhi is SO DIFFICULTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!! Raja and Emperors..Kings and SAGES..FAILED !!!!...so CONGRATS..( if you really think you have the stuff inside..keep it up....it should SHINE AUTOMATICALLY.... Kabir Ji says..it CANNOT BE HIDDEN !!!!.. I KNOW I am having  atough time cultivating "sikhi inside"... so i am taking the EASY way out by growing long hair instead...at least thats a start..beginning...may GURU JI bless me....

7. ALL are WELCOME IN ALL GURDWARAS. Its a different matter that NOW a days..the TYPICAL GURDWARA...is NOT the DOOR to GURU JI ..not anymore. The Typical gurdwara is a COMMERCIAL PLACE..where RITUALS are SOLD and BOUGHT.....You can BUY..paaths...ardasses...kirtan praises...good health...pass exams..grow your buisness...etc etc.....BUT SORRY..if you wanted to KNOW the GURU...or HIS WAYS..or learn His GURBANI....then the Typical everyday GURDWARA is NOT the place for you....so IF you get chased out of one by a dastaree just becasue you are a shavee...that is the best thing to happen to you...you are better off going to a genuine place to learn the GURU....the SPN is one such place !!!

Chardeekalla..no offense to anyone..just my thoughts...

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## kiram (Sep 12, 2008)

YouTube - Why Live the Sikh Lifestyle


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## Sikh Chela (Sep 12, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 1. Its actually GURU JIS HUKM to keep the Five Kakaars. Since Guru Ji didnt say Dont cut toe nails/pull out defective teeth etc etc..its OK to cut nails, go to the dentist etc etc. But HE did say..KEEP YOUR HAIR INTACT...so I do. I dont think thats Juvenile.... no as a matter of fact its Maturity. Its not "juvenility" to Love and follow ones GURU...to the LETTER/SPIRIT.


 
Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji, you have misunderstood my point.  My point is not that keeping your hair intact is juvenile.  Nor is my point that following ones Guru is juvenile.  My point is that claiming that the reason you should keep you hair intact is "because God gave you hair and cutting it would offend him", is juvenile.  If your belief is that you should keep your hair because it is Guru Ji's hukam then that is fine, no further justification should be needed for keeping your hair long.



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 2. Sikhs who were Martyred..were just given ONE CHOICE - CUT your Hair !! or DIE.
> Best example is Bhai TARU SINGH....whose SCALP was REMOVED since he refused to cut his hair. Its totally FALSE to keep the HAIR out of this aspect of Sikh History. HAIR was and IS..100% Part and parcel. ONLY those Heads that had LONG HAIR INTACT were worth the 80 Rupee PRIZE MONEY !!! Many unscrupulous people cut off the HEADS of WOMEN and GIRLS....to claim the 80 rupee prize....claiming these are heads of YOUNG SIKHS !!!.


 
Again, my point is not that we should ignore the part of hair in Sikhi or Sikh history.   The point that I was trying to make is that these great martyrs, Bhai Taru Singh inclusive, sacraficed themselves not for the hair on their heads but for what that hair stood for at the time.  It was an ideal inspired by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  It was a statement by these great people that those in power (the Mughals) could not rule them anymore.  It was a statement of oppression to tyranny.  And it (the hair) served as a symbol of sovereignty and freedom.



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 4.
> Your beleif about Guru Gobind Singh Ji is wrong...GURU NANAK JI had long hair..Long flowing beard..and wore a Dastaar..so did ALL the following GURUS.


 
Not that it matters, how do we know that all Gurus had long hair?  Are we just going to believe what artists have given us?



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 5. Sikhi in "decline" ?? a widely held opinion..but WRONG. The KHALSA was NEVER in vast numbers..or Majority at any time...even in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs rule..Sikh KINGDOM..but SIKHS still in MINORITY.
> A reversal of sorts is happening though.... for each PUNJABI sikh who shaves....another NEW SIKH emerges...one that is complete in Banna and Bani...look at the Western Sikhs....a growing number...and certainly more proud of their BANNA than any Punjabi sikhs i know..their SINGHANEES wear DASTAARS in much larger numbers than Punjabi FEMALES (sikhs). Goes to prove that Sikhi is UNIVERSAL..and not birthright of the punjabis..good riddance to punjabis who shave off. The Full Banna Sikh is in full RESURGANCE in canada UK..USA....welcome !!! just look at any picture of a Sikh Procession nagar kirtan in Vancouver..Surrey..New York...SEA of ..dastaars everywhere....compared to a Gurdass Mann concert in Punjab..a rag tag crowd of ghoneh monehs...Sikhi is NOT in Decline....in Punjab..yes..but not elsewhere....


 
I will try to get you some stats on this.  What I mean is that Sikhi is not increasing like Islam or Christianity.  Rather Sikhi is just keeping pace with the rise in world population.  I am from Canada and I can assure you that Sikhi is not increasing.  You may believe that for every Sikh that cuts his hair, another emerges but this is simply not true my friend.

Respectfully.





Gyani jarnail Singh[/quote]


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## pk70 (Sep 12, 2008)

Not that it matters, how do we know that all Gurus had long hair? Are we just going to believe what artists have given us? ( quate sikh chela  ji )
*Sikh chela ji*
*If Gurus are shown by artists with hair and long beard, thinking it was created by artists only, what should we believe in then? Your imagination? If any one who follows Guru Granth Sahib Ji but cuts hair, I have no problem with that person but why hair and beard of Guru are brought in to this discussion? Isn’t it enough to follow Guru’s teachings instead of dreaming how Guru looked like? Tenth Master gave five Kakaar, that includes hair, isn’t it enough proof that Guru kept them too:yes:. The thing that bothers me is to take defense from individual baseless imagination. I am of the opinion that Sehajdhari Sikhs are as good as amritdhari sikhs provided both follow Guru Granth Sahib from heart.*


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## kds1980 (Sep 12, 2008)

> Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, followed by Christianity.  Why are these religions able to grow while Sikhi is not



Dear sikh chela

Let me answer your this question .Islam is fastest growing religion because of its birth rate and not because people embracing it.Many muslim sites are misleading people that people are converting to islam.The fact is if people are converting to islam then they are leaving it too but they don't disclose
it.

As far as christianity is concerned yes it is growing because of converts.But there are 2 factors

1)christian missionaries approach poor people which sikh and other Indian missionaries don't do

2)they also use tactics to convert people.Do you want sikh missionaries do the same

Let me tell you one thing there is no good growth in any Indian religion .


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## Sikh Chela (Sep 12, 2008)

Yes I believe that the tenth Guru did have long hair and did sport the 5 kakaar but how come none of the other Gurus stressed the importance of unshorn hair in any way?  I do not refute that they may have had unshorn hair but if they did I don't believe it was for any 'Godly' reason... otherwise wouldn't they have said something about keeping your hair?  

Anyway, I agree with pk70 that following the GGS with dedication and an open mind is all that matters in the end.  In fact, that is precisely my point... the essence of the GGS does not tell us to grow our hair long but rather teaches us to follow basic qualities of: truth, humility, sharing, justice, learning, love, etc.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 12, 2008)

The question arise, How do we know all the Guru's kept there hair.

Guru ji has advised his Sikhs to keep hair and so the Gurus lead by example right from the first Guru, Guru Nanak Dev ji. The Gurus always lead by example and this was also shown when Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji took amrit from the Panj Pyare. Whatever the case the Gurus always lead by example. When Bab Budha ji passed away Guru Hargobind gave his shoulder to the bier showing the Humility that existed in the Gurus. Furthermore, when Guru Arjan Dev ji was put on the hot plate he also lead my example showing us how much love toward the Lord he had and we too should love and devote our lives for the Lord in the same way. God's will is what the Gurus lived by and they advised us in the same way to keep hair along with other teachings. Its well understood that hair is sacred in Sikhi and it should be kept as God has made it, otherwise Guru Gobind Sahib ji would have given the Khalsa Panth 4 Kakkar and his Hukam for the Sikh would have not included - Sikh must keep hair. Also hair has more to do than just identity because if it didn’t then Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji would have just said wear a pagg and the 4 Kakkar and still the Khalsa Panth will be distinctive and same goes for the Sikh they would just wear the pagg and look distinctive. But that is not the case he advised his Sikhs to keep hair because of identity and spirituality.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 12, 2008)

*Not that it matters, how do we know that all Gurus had long hair? Are we just going to believe what artists have given us?*

1. NO veer ji i dont base my beleifs on "artists impressions". In fact I am one of those who actively condemn the widespread "Guru pictures" as FAKES. Guru Ji joined us to GURBANI - SHABAD GURU...the AKAL PURAKH who has no form, no shape..no pictorial contents whatsoever. These assumed pictures are individual artists imaginations run wild and are counter to Shabad Guru Concept which is the basis of Sikhi/Gurmatt. These in fact lead us towards the wrong path/direction...towards IDOL WORSHIP.
2. I base ALL my writings on GURBANI in the SGGS and there are ample examples/References of LAMMRREH BAALA (LONG HAIR), Long BEARDS in Sacred Gurbani.
3. There is ample evidence in Gurbani that the 5 kakaars originate from GURU NANAK ji Sahib..and the link continues from Guru to Guru until Guru Gobind Singh Ji formally CODIFIED this as He was going to END the DEHDHAREE (human) Gurgadhee and pass it on to the SHABAD GURU from 1708. Since the Ten human Guurs from 1469-1708 were Visibly wearing Dastaars and having Long Beards etc and could show BY EXAMPLE....but SGGS as Shabad guru wont be having that aspect of "lead by example in physical form/viisblity....Guur Ji CODIFIED the REHAT in vasakhi 1699.( This is not to deny that Shabad guru has indeed "lead by example in the Gurbani" but many still insist on "seeing" a dastaar/long beard to beleive ( many so called sants are on record as having "seen" Guur nanak" when they should be "seeing" SGGS ONLY").
5. It is needless/useless to drag in the Guur's personal form into ones personal preference to shave.
I too fully support any individual's personal preferences - but be brave enough to just say so.." I prefer to shave" rather than try the futile game of saying" Show me where Guru nanak ji kept long hair/didnt shave..etc etc. Every person has the right to follow the chosen path at his own pace.

Regards and chardeekalla to all

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 12, 2008)

*Anyway, I agree with pk70 that following the GGS with dedication and an open mind is all that matters in the end. In fact, that is precisely my point... the essence of the GGS does not tell us to grow our hair long but rather teaches us to follow basic qualities of: truth, humility, sharing, justice, learning, love, etc*.

Growing Hair..long beards...etc etc is the EASY PART. Just let NATURE take its course....not an iota of effort needed. THUS this "essence" is only mentioned briefly in Gurbani.( BUT IT IS MENTIONED and quite CLEARLY TOO !!)

BUT....the rest of the "Essence" is an entirely different kettle of fish. LOve thy enemy..Love all..see god in ALL...control ones LUST..ANGER..KRODH..LOBH..HANKAAR...EGO..etc etc is NOT EASY. NO SIR JI....that has DEFEATED kings and Emperors,,devtas such as Shivji..Brahma..Sages and Brahmgianis......THAT IS WHY ALL THIS ESSENCE IS STRESSED HUNDREDS OF TIMES...THOUSANDS OF TIMES ...IN 1429 PAGES OF THE HUGE GRANTH SAHIB..OUR GURU.

Is it easier for me to "not shave"..or sit on the Hot Plate like Guru Arjun Ji and Declare..DOSH na kahoon dehon... I DONT BLAME ANYONE !!!..Tera Bhanna Meetha Laggeh..Oh How sweet your Will My Lord !!! ??????????????????????????????????????? A penny for the RIGHT ANSWER ?? Any WONDER then that Guru Arjun Ji would Write many many many hundreds of More SHABADS on TERA BHANNA..HIS HUKM...rather  than "long hair/Beard/Dastaar" ???? I am very very SURE that even Prithiyah ( Guru jis elder brother) had Long Beard and wore a Dastaar ( He wanted to be next GURU....so he would definitely not be "shavee"..and the LONG BEARD of Guru ramdass Ji and Guru Arjun Ji is LEGENDARY in Sikh literature as well )..BUT did Prithiya had what it takes to Sit on the HOT PLATE and declare the same ?? 11110% NO is my answer.

Regards...
Gyani jarnail singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 12, 2008)

*I will try to get you some stats on this. What I mean is that **Sikhi** is not increasing like Islam or Christianity. Rather **Sikhi** is just keeping pace with the rise in world population. I am from Canada and I can assure you that **Sikhi** is not increasing. You may believe that for every **Sikh** that cuts his hair, another emerges but this is simply not true my friend.
*
Maybe....or maybee not. It really doesnt matter because Sikhi never really "spreads" like the wildfire spread of Islam (through the sword earlier..and in much of todays world through compulsion..birthrates etc) and Christianity (missionary/economic forces working on poverty stricken families) ( in the recent Bosnia Conflict I heard a personal story from a Sikh Volunteer who served there as a UNO rep...the Bosnians were expecting the Sikhs to raise the "question..of conversion"..BUT were they SURPRISED when day after day..the Sikhs just kept on feeding Guru ka Lnaggar and other aid..and NEVER once brought up the subject of..SO when are you going to becoem a "sikh"...unlike the Christians and others..who laid down CONVERSION as a PRE-REQUISITE even before any food is provided) As  a matter of FACT..Sikhs only "preach" to SIKHS !! in Gurdwaras. There is NOT a single Sikh missionary effort based on Convert the TRIBALS..Convert the AFRICANS...etc etc anywhere in the world. Even the Yogi harbahjan effort known as the 3HO was NOT an effort for active "conversion" per se....it was just exposure of sikhi..and the people liked it..and converted on their own without any "incentives"....that si why they make better sikhs than "born" sikhs of Punajbi origin.
2. It is enough to keep pace with world population. (imho) we need not try and conver the entire 6 billions....even IF every living human becomes a SIKH...the "USA Sikh" will still try and kill the "Iraqi Sikh" ( For OIL !!)..I am just being realistic..ECONOMIC FACTORS are stronger than religious ties any day....thats why the Iraqi Muslims kill Arabic Muslims..or the Pakistani Muslims raped the Bengali Muslims way back in United Pakistan !!( same religion didnt help)
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 12, 2008)

1.And one final and irrefutable point. Our Daily ARDASS - not only gives honourable mention to ALL MARTYRS WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES...WEARING KESHAS/UNCUT HAIRS/Preserved the SANCTITY of KESHAS. Then we BEG Akal Purakh for the GIFT of KESHAS..KESH DAAN.
2. WE have KESHGARRH SAHIB - one of the FIVE TAKHATS....named after KESHAS...FORT OF KESHAS.
3. Gurbani of the Third Guru period..Baba sunder Ji mentions KESHO-GOPAL...the LORD with LONG HAIR.
Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## lionprinceuk (Sep 19, 2008)

Guru Nanak spread dharma, and sikhs should do the same. There is no conversion nonsense involved.

The best thing to preach someone is how to be a good human being, and what these christians and muslims teach is tribalism by preahing to join and follow their tribe.


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## Suntink (Nov 22, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*

Guru Nanak taught everyone is equal, regardless of their spirituality, race, gender, caste, previous good deeds, or past bad deeds. Guru Gobind Singh Ji told his Sikhs people to keep hair and a turban. From my perspective I think he said this is what you need to have the Sikh identity. In my opinion he did not mean this is what you need in order to receive blessings from God or go to heaven. This is the correct Sikh path and tradition. But remember during Guru Ram Das' time or before or up to Guru Tegh Bahadur’s time we have absolutely no evidence that people had to cover their heads to enter the Golden Temple. Also we know at that time there were Muslim followers of Guru Gobind Singh and before Hindu followers of Guru Nanak. 

It is really wonderful to be proud or your turban and hair and yes I agree this is the Sikh path and tradition. But to think that this makes you "higher" or more "spiritual" is wrong. As every human body has thousands of spiritaul gems inside of it. To think God will value you more, or Guru Will think you are "better" is wrong. When we tie our hair we tell ourselves this is my identity and traditional. And this is our crown and fills us with glorious pride. However, I do not think this makes better or worth more to God than clean shaven Sikhs or the rest of humanity or that Guru Ji would think I am better. I do not think that is the message of the Guru’s philosophy. That would be having an ego and it would be demeaning to my devotion.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 22, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



Suntink said:


> Guru Nanak taught everyone is equal, regardless of their spirituality, race, gender, caste, previous good deeds, or past bad deeds. Guru Gobind Singh Ji told his Sikhs people to keep hair and a turban. From my perspective I think he said this is what you need to have the Sikh identity. In my opinion he did not mean this is what you need in order to receive blessings from God or go to heaven. This is the correct Sikh path and tradition. But remember during Guru Ram Das' time or before or up to Guru Tegh Bahadur’s time we have absolutely no evidence that people had to cover their heads to enter the Golden Temple. Also we know at that time there were Muslim followers of Guru Gobind Singh and before Hindu followers of Guru Nanak.
> 
> It is really wonderful to be proud or your turban and hair and yes I agree this is the Sikh path and tradition. But to think that this makes you "higher" or more "spiritual" is wrong. As every human body has thousands of spiritaul gems inside of it. To think God will value you more, or Guru Will think you are "better" is wrong. When we tie our hair we tell ourselves this is my identity and traditional. And this is our crown and fills us with glorious pride. However, I do not think this makes better or worth more to God than clean shaven Sikhs or the rest of humanity or that Guru Ji would think I am better. I do not think that is the message of the Guru’s philosophy. That would be having an ego and it would be demeaning to my devotion.


 
Guru jis teaching are not like a menu at a restaurant.  I think I'll have this today, I feel like eating this today.  If you want to treat it like a menu then call it egotistical because you think, I don't need to keep my hair, what does hair mean, its nothing, all these Amritdharis that keep hair don't even know what there doing.  In other words you’re following your own minds desire.  People accept what they like and God only accepts the Gurmukhs.  Now some will come out and say, how do you know what God accepts.  It’s simple, there is no grey area here for a Sikh.  Its either you become one or fail.  Throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says become a Gurmukh.  It doesn't say become half a Gurmukh.  The Guru jis taught us to be 100% pure Sikhs and yet we sit here and talk about being 1/2 a Sikh, 1/4 a Sikh, 3/4 a Sikh.  When will we stop this nonsense and actually wake up to reality?  God helps the Gurmukhs when they are in need like he helped Prahlaad and killed Harnaakhash.  So did God favor someone here?  Lets see YES, he favored Prahlaad a Bhagat over Harnaakhash. 

Sangat ji, no clever tricks can fool the one.  We can fool people, but when that time comes all your clever tricks will come to an end and then you'll be able to see what Gods will is.

Take Amrit and become apart of the Khalsa Panth and fullfill your souls yearning of the one.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



Suntink said:


> . But remember during Guru Ram Das' time or before or up to Guru Tegh Bahadur’s time we have absolutely no evidence that people had to cover their heads to enter the Golden Temple. .



I would be interested to know where your source is for this?


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## spnadmin (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*

Randip ji

There is a source but I can't find it in my bookmarks. A Sikh scholar who did a very careful comparison of Gurbani, the lives of the Gurus, and historical documents. Book available at Amazon. As soon as I locate it, I will post. Disorganization always rules.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



Singh said:


> Take Amrit and become apart of the Khalsa Panth and fullfill your souls yearning of the one.


Where in the SGGS does it say to do that? Afterall, we must follow our Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's teachings.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



BhagatSingh said:


> Where in the SGGS does it say to do that? Afterall, we must follow our Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's teachings.


 
Where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the next Guru of the Sikhs??????


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



Singh said:


> Where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the next Guru of the Sikhs??????


I don't know, you tell me. But it doesn't say joining khalsa will "fullfill your souls yearning of the one."


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



BhagatSingh said:


> I don't know, you tell me. But it doesn't say joining khalsa will "fullfill your souls yearning of the one."


 
The answer to your question lies in my question to you.  So find that out then post back to this page if it does or not.  

A hint, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



Singh said:


> A hint, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji


Doesn't ring a bell... 

So where does he say "Take Amrit and become apart of the Khalsa Panth and *fullfill your souls yearning of the one.*"


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: A Sikh without his Flowing Hair and Turban My POV*



BhagatSingh said:


> Doesn't ring a bell...
> 
> So where does he say "Take Amrit and become apart of the Khalsa Panth and *fullfill your souls yearning of the one.*"


 

_Where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the next Guru of the Sikhs??????_

_Answer the question and you'll find the answer_

_For now I  have other important matters and when I get to this site, I'll be waiting for your answer_


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2008)

Keep avoiding the question, you are getting good at it.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Keep avoiding the question, you are getting good at it.


 
Bhagat Singh ji, I have not avoided the question. I have already given you an answer for the question. The answer is within another question and in this questions answer you will find your questions answer. So, if you want the answer then simply answer the question of mine to your question and you wouldn't feel like I am avoiding the question.

Here's the question again: 
_Where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the next Guru of the Sikhs??????_


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2008)

Just to clarify, by "where did he say", I mean "where is it written/ where did he write it".


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Just to clarify, by "where did he say", I mean "where is it written/ where did he write it".


 
whose "he" in your, where is it written/ where did he write it"  who is this he that you are refering too?


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## spnadmin (Nov 23, 2008)

Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji,
> 
> Here's the question again:
> _Where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the *next Guru of the Sikhs??????*_



*The next Guru of the Sikhs? *What are you asking? Sri Guru Granth Sahib is now the Guru of the Sikhs, and for 300 years past. There is no *next Guru of the Sikhs. *Gurus were not reading crystal ***** or casting horoscopes.

You are likely trying to get Bhagat ji to admit that Sri Guru Gobind Singh declared Adi Granth Sahib the everlasting Guru outside of the context of the Granth itself. At the point where he does so then you would, _if my hypothesis about your hypothesis is correct,_ tell him that he must also concede that the Sikhs were commanded to keep hair and wear turbans, again outside of the context of the Adi Granth itself. At that point, you believe you would have _caught him. _Perhaps he does not agree that Guru Gobind Singh was in fact commanding hair and turban to be Khalsa. Let's see what he has to say.

I have peeled away the mystery in this conversation.  Time to return to the topic of the thread. Thank you.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> *The next Guru of the Sikhs? *What are you asking? Sri Guru Granth Sahib is now the Guru of the Sikhs, and for 300 years past. There is no *next Guru of the Sikhs. *Gurus were not reading crystal ***** or casting horoscopes.
> 
> You are likely trying to get Bhagat ji to admit that Sri Guru Gobind Singh declared Adi Granth Sahib the everlasting Guru outside of the context of the Granth itself. At the point where he does so then you would, _if my hypothesis about your hypothesis is correct,_ tell him that he must also concede that the Sikhs were commanded to keep hair and wear turbans, again outside of the context of the Adi Granth itself. At that point, you believe you would have _caught him. _Perhaps he does not agree that Guru Gobind Singh was in fact commanding hair and turban to be Khalsa. Let's see what he has to say.
> 
> I have peeled away the mystery in this conversation.  Time to return to the topic of the thread. Thank you.


 
You got it wrong and it caused for your ranting about crystal *****.  Its *is the next *[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]*Guru*[/URL]* of the *[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikhs/"]*Sikhs*[/URL]*??????*

Also its no mystery so no peeling needed 

So we wait for Bhagat Singh jis reply


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## spnadmin (Nov 23, 2008)

Who is the Guru of the Sikhs right now? I thought it was Sri Guru Granth Sahib? :happy:


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 23, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Who is the Guru of the Sikhs right now? I thought it was Sri Guru Granth Sahib? :happy:


 
There was a hint in the question, i thought you would have picked it up, but it seems like you didn't get it.


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## spnadmin (Nov 24, 2008)

Singh ji

Another Granth Sahib? I guess I am stumped then.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 24, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> Another Granth Sahib? I guess I am stumped then.


 
Still not getting it! :rofl!!:We'll leave this one as a mystery then.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 25, 2008)

Singh said:


> whose "he" in your, where is it written/ where did he write it"  who is this he that you are refering too?


Singh ji when u gave me the hint and I replied "Doesn't ring a bell... "
I was being sarcastic. it was Guru Gobind Singh ji who gave gurugaddi to Guru Granth Sahib.That does not answer my question.

Now another question is posed.When a guru gives guru gaddi to a different "thing". Do we go back and listen to the previous guru or do we follow what the new one has to say?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 25, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> You are likely trying to get Bhagat ji to admit that Sri Guru Gobind Singh declared Adi Granth Sahib the everlasting Guru outside of the context of the Granth itself.


He is and I agree. My question: where it is written?  If written at all. Followed up by the question i posed earlier.



> At the point where he does so then you would, _if my hypothesis about your hypothesis is correct,_ tell him that he must also concede that the *Sikhs were commanded to keep hair and wear turbans, again outside of the context of the Adi Granth itself*. At that point, you believe you would have _caught him. _Perhaps he does not agree that Guru Gobind Singh was in fact commanding hair and turban to be Khalsa.


So if the *bold* is true (which it is), I am thinking that khalsa was a temporary thing. Since SGGS was meant to last forever. If khalsa was not added to SGGS means it was not there to last forever. It was not given much importance by Guru Gobind Singh ji, *BUT* he considered it to be important at the time* IF* he encouraged SIkh to take amrit. Either way since he did not preserve Khalsa discipline in SGGS, it is not important. this is the conclusion i am coming to, at the moment.



> Let's see what he has to say.


And that is what I had to say! :yes:


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## spnadmin (Nov 25, 2008)

Ok, Singh ji -- Here we go! To Leaders....


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 25, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> He is and I agree. My question: where it is written? If written at all. Followed up by the question i posed earlier.
> 
> So if the *bold* is true (which it is), I am thinking that khalsa was a temporary thing. Since SGGS was meant to last forever. If khalsa was not added to SGGS means it was not there to last forever. It was not given much importance by Guru Gobind Singh ji, *BUT* he considered it to be important at the time* IF* he encouraged SIkh to take amrit. Either way since he did not preserve Khalsa discipline in SGGS, it is not important. this is the conclusion i am coming to, at the moment.
> 
> And that is what I had to say! :yes:


 
If this is the conclusion you are coming to then here’s the other half you missed.  In the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it does not say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru of the Sikhs.  By your logic this would mean since Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji did not write it down, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has no important in today’s time and was not to last forever and was only a temporary thing and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji did not give much importance to it.

Both were said by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, if one is temporary then that makes the other temporary, etc.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 26, 2008)

Singh said:


> If this is the conclusion you are coming to then here’s the other half you missed.  In the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it does not say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru of the Sikhs.  By your logic this would mean since Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji did not write it down, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has no important in today’s time and was not to last forever and was only a temporary thing and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji did not give much importance to it.
> 
> Both were said by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, if one is temporary then that makes the other temporary, etc.


Try harder...
You've completely twisted what I had to say. 
You've missed half that story and therefore, your conclusion and logic is flawed.
I stick by what I had earlier.

What you are missing is:


> Now another question is posed.When a Guru gives Guru gaddi to a different "thing". Do we go back and listen to the previous Guru or do we follow what the new one has to say?


Since Guru Gobind Singh ji was the guru when he gave guru gaddi to SGGS, we listen to the Guru and accept SGGS as our guru. But now SGGS is our guru not Guru Gobind Singh, and since the Khalsa is nowhere to be found in SGGS, this leads to my conclusion...


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2008)

Singh ji, Bhagat ji

There is a lot of confusion in the discussion. The 5 k's were asked by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji in 1699, when he asked for 5 heads, gave amrit, took amrit -- and that is the date when keeping hair becomes one hallmark of the khalsa panth.

In 1708 one day before his death, he made Adi Granth the Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- the eternal Guru of the Sikhs.

On that same day he said that if the panth sought him after his death they need only look among themselves to find him. This statement (and we can post the exact quote if necessary) raises two questions which have been debated for a long time.

1. Did Guru Gobind Singh intend that the khalsa panth be considered Guru in the same sense as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharj? Or was he talking about something else?

2. Did Guru Gobind Singh imply that only the Khalsa (those who took amrit) were the khalsa panth? This is another question that occupies serious discussion of the question "Who are the Khalsa?"

Both questions have been discussed many times over several threads on SPN since the beginning of this forum. There are some interesting issues to consider. One example would be this question. At Gurdwara we all recite Rag Karega Khalsa! at the end of Ardaas. Some in the Darshan Sahib have taken amrit, and others have not. But everyone recites this. Is this to say that all in the Darshan Sahib are among the panth who are khalsa? Or is the panth only the amritdhari? Are they true panth? Are we chanting in praise for them alone?

The thread is about flowing hair and turbans. The bestowing of 5 K's took place in 1699. So why are we discussing events of 1708 unless there is a need to deal with the question of who are the khalsa as a kind of connected debate. And if that is so, then it should go to another thread. Apologies for speaking at length about this. 

Please let me also point out that Sikhs who keep hair do so with hair neatly tied and under their turbans. Sikhs with flowing hair is a jarring thought.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 26, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Try harder...
> You've completely twisted what I had to say.
> You've missed half that story and therefore, your conclusion and logic is flawed.
> I stick by what I had earlier.
> ...


 
I did not twist anything. Your logic has a flaw in it and i pointed it out. Lets put it in simple sense. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said A being Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru of the Sikhs and B being his Hukam of taking amrit. A and B are not in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. So if A is not important then B is not important. If B is not important then A is not important. Both of them go hand in hand. Also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave the Khalsa Panth the power of being called Guru Khalsa Panth. Also when five Khalsa are present they represent Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. So this further shows the importants of the Khalsa Panth and the importants of taking amrit. Also when he gave this order there was no confusion for who Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji was refering too as the Khalsa Panth. He was refering to the Amritdhari who obeyed his hukam and took amrit. As when Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present and a decision has to be made, then this decision is to be made by the Five beloved ones that will represent Guru ji. All of this clearly shows the importants given to the Khalsa Panth.

Your not getting the point Bhagat Singh how can you move on to say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru, when it does not say this in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Maybe someone else can make this clear for you because i have made this clear as day over and over again. I am gettin repititive here.

Also to speak on the thing you said i missed to answer. I did not answer this because it was disrespectful of you for calling Guru a thing and calling Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji new Guru. As you would know Guru ji is not a thing and there is no such thing as new Guru. Guru is Bani and Bani is Guru. There is no difference from Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. All the teaching and orders that were given by Guru Gobind Singh sahib ji are not in the Sri Guru Granth sahib ji as my above paragraphs show. Also elaborate on when you say Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji is not the Guru and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru. When there is no difference between the two, where is the distinguishth you are make?

To conclude your conclusion it has a flaw in it and it doesn't make sense. So revise what you have said and maybe a mod other than Aad ji or another member can come in and make this clear to you. Also if you listen to the Guru that would mean for you to listen to Guru Gobind Singh ji's Hukam.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 26, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji, Bhagat ji
> 
> There is a lot of confusion in the discussion. The 5 k's were asked by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji in 1699, when he asked for 5 heads, gave amrit, took amrit -- and that is the date when keeping hair becomes one hallmark of the khalsa panth.
> 
> ...


 
There is a clear distinction who is Khalsa and who is Sikh only and has not taken amrit. Here is a part of ardas that speaks to only the Khalsa Panth

First, there is supplication for all the Khalsa Panth. May the Lord bestow upon His Khalsa the gift of His remembrance, Vaheguru, Vaheguru,Vaheguru, and may the merit of this remembrance be happiness of all kinds. O God, wherever are the members of Khalsa, extend Your protection and mercy on them; let the Panth be ever victorious, let the sword be ever our protector. May the order of the Khalsa achieve ever-expanding progress and supremacy. Utter O Khalsa, Vaheguru!.

This next part speaks to the Sikhs( the part in this color) and then the rest of the congregation, there is two parts here combined as one

May God grant to the Sikhs, the gift of faith, the gift of uncut hair, the Keshas, the gift of discipline, the gift of spiritual discrimination,the gift of mutual trust, the gift of self confidence and the supreme gift of all the gifts, the communion with Vaheguru, the Name, and the gift of bathing in Amritsar, May the administrative centres, banners, the cantonments of Khalsa ever remain inviolate. May the cause of truth and justice prevail everywhere at all times, utter O Khalsa, Vaheguru!.

This part of ardas makes a clear indication that Sikh are the ones with uncut hair and have not accepted the discipline yet; as this would not apply to the Khalsa Panth they already obey to this Hukam, they follow the discipline, and already have faith in the Lord. Yes when it says utter o Khalsa, Vaheguru this is for the whole congregation as one, but they are on different levels of there spiritual journey; just being Sikh one level and beyond this level being a Khalsa and the last, the communion with Vaheguru.

Guru ji made this variation to show, yes we are all one congregation, but the Sikhs need to progress on there spiritual journey and Guru ji reminds them of this wherever ardas is done.


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2008)

Singh ji

Thank you for sharing your perspective with us.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

Singh said:


> I did not twist anything. Your logic has a flaw in it and i pointed it out. Lets put it in simple sense. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said A being Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru of the Sikhs and B being his Hukam of taking amrit.


EDIT: read post below, first! I forgot to submit it.
It wasn't in simple enough sense for you, before? Ok let us proceed then.
So what is the difference between A and B?
A = the Guru of Sikhs is going to change to SGGS
B = hukam of the previous guru
Question raised: Do we follow upcoming Guru or go back to the previous one?

B has not been mentioned in upcoming Guru, SGGS!
Level of importance has declined.



> A and B are not in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


Valid point. 
But A does not HAVE to be in SGGS. Do you understand that? It is the nature of A. *Don't read further if you do not understand what I am talking about here!!*



> So if A is not important then B is not important.


When A was put out, B became less important because it was not found in SGGS. You are giving A and B equal values but when A happens B becomes of less value/importance!



> If B is not important then A is not important.


WRONG! read above.



> Both of them go hand in hand.


Nope



> Also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave the Khalsa Panth the power of being called Guru Khalsa Panth. Also when five Khalsa are present they represent Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. So this further shows the importants of the Khalsa Panth and the importants of taking amrit.


Read my reply to Aad ji post just below.



> Also when he gave this order there was no confusion for who Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji was refering too as the Khalsa Panth. He was refering to the Amritdhari who obeyed his hukam and took amrit. As when Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present and a decision has to be made, then this decision is to be made by the Five beloved ones that will represent Guru ji. All of this clearly shows the importants given to the Khalsa Panth.


 NO it is not that simple. Is khalsa someone who is pure of heart or an amritdhari? 
Khalsa could definitely be both, but let's look at a case where Khalsa isnt both.
Person x has not taken amrit but is what GGS would consider Khalsa.
Person y has taken amrit but is GGS would not consider Khalsa.





> Your not getting the point Bhagat Singh how can you move on to say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru, when it does not say this in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


I am getting your point, don't worry.
Guru Gobind SIngh ji did not say he was guru. Am I correct? Yet we "moved on" to him. When SGGS was made guru it was time to "move on" to SGGS.



> Maybe someone else can make this clear for you because i have made this clear as day over and over again. I am gettin repititive here.


That is because you have not even considered the fact that maybe, just maybe SGGS is what we have to follow, and Khalsa was not given as much importance by GGS.
I am NOT saying agree with me!!



> Also to speak on the thing you said i missed to answer. I did not answer this because it was disrespectful of you for calling Guru a thing and calling Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji new Guru.


By thing I meant either person or object, no one is getting disrespected here, calm down. SGGS would be considered the new Guru since it was granted guruship by the old/previous one. I thought that would be obvious.



> As you would know Guru ji is not a thing and there is no such thing as new Guru.


What's a thing?? Please clarify what you mean by thing. Since you bringing it up again.



> Guru is Bani and Bani is Guru. There is no difference from Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


When we say they are the same, we don't mean physically the same. WE mean their teaching are the same. 



> All the teaching and orders that were given by Guru Gobind Singh sahib ji are not in the Sri Guru Granth sahib ji as my above paragraphs show.


Ya so since he did not preserve the orders, we simply ignore them. Of course, we study them and they are of importance but were only of importance when they were given out and in the context they were given out.


> Also elaborate on when you say Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji is not the Guru and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru. When there is no difference between the two, where is the distinguishth you are make?


Guru Gobind Singh ji was a man, SGGS is a book. There is a HUGE difference. GGS fought many wars, SGGS did not! Another HUGE difference. GGS could move on his own!! 

If you mean the teachings then of course!! Another similarity:
GGS was revolutionary, SGGS is GOING to be revolutionary!!! :happy:



> To conclude your conclusion it has a flaw in it and it doesn't make sense. So revise what you have said and maybe a mod other than Aad ji or another member can come in and make this clear to you. Also if you listen to the Guru that would mean for you to listen to Guru Gobind Singh ji's Hukam.


To conclude you didn't consider the part you missed in the conclusion.... again, so no.
Anyone else want to make is clear for me? Please don't hesitate. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just trying to bring up confusing parts of our history.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji, Bhagat ji
> 
> There is a lot of confusion in the discussion. The 5 k's were asked by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji in 1699, when he asked for 5 heads, gave amrit, took amrit -- and that is the date when keeping hair becomes one hallmark of the khalsa panth.


Yes you got that correct Aad Ji, I would not differ from that in anyway. 



> In 1708 one day before his death, he made Adi Granth the Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- the eternal Guru of the Sikhs.


Here is the crucial point, in my opinion, now do we start to follows SGGS or still follow Guru Gobind Singh? 



> On that same day he said that if the panth sought him after his death they need only* look among themselves *to find him. This statement (and we can post the exact quote if necessary) raises two questions which have been debated for a long time.
> 
> 1. Did Guru Gobind Singh intend that the khalsa panth be considered Guru in the same sense as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharj? Or was he talking about something else?
> 
> 2. Did Guru Gobind Singh imply that only the Khalsa (those who took amrit) were the khalsa panth? This is another question that occupies serious discussion of the question "Who are the Khalsa?"


How about something else in the case of 1?
He wanted us to be like him. He wanted us to raise a voice against in justice and oppression. In a sense that each one of us is Guru Gobind Singh ji when we take on leadership and guide people in the right direction! each one of us is Guru Gobind Singh ji when we raise a voice against injustice!! each one of us is Guru Gobind Singh ji when we start projects like Sarbloh Warriors, Sundri  etc!!

But I am probably wrong! :shutup:



> Both questions have been discussed many times over several threads on SPN since the beginning of this forum. There are some interesting issues to consider. One example would be this question. At Gurdwara we all recite Rag Karega Khalsa! at the end of Ardaas. Some in the Darshan Sahib have taken amrit, and others have not. But everyone recites this. Is this to say that all in the Darshan Sahib are among the panth who are khalsa? Or is the panth only the amritdhari? Are they true panth? Are we chanting in praise for them alone?


Beautiful questions Aad ji!
Or are we saying the "pure ones" will rise ? the ones with Naam in their heart. Accoridng to guru Nanak dev ji, if you have God in your heart then you are pure.
pure ones = khalsa, pure = khalis



> The thread is about flowing hair and turbans. The bestowing of 5 K's took place in 1699. So why are we discussing events of 1708 unless there is a need to deal with the question of who are the khalsa as a kind of connected debate. And if that is so, then it should go to another thread. Apologies for speaking at length about this.
> 
> *Please let me also point out that Sikhs who keep hair do so with hair neatly tied and under their turbans. Sikhs with flowing hair is a jarring thought.*


Haha, you just brought up an amzing point here!  How CAN you have flowing hair AND a turban that keeps them from flowing!


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 27, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> EDIT: read post below, first! I forgot to submit it.
> It wasn't in simple enough sense for you, before? Ok let us proceed then.
> So what is the difference between A and B?
> A = the Guru of Sikhs is going to change to SGGS
> ...


 
Woooooooooowwwwwwwwww, I don't even know where to begininng here.  I'm let someone else deal with your illogical posts.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

Singh said:


> I'm let someone else deal with your illogical posts.


:down: Don't call someone's post illogical just because you cannot see any logic in it. Read SGGS and bring humility in your heart.


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

Whilst young Sikhs in an attempt to integrate into what is a diverse and multi cultural populations have shed their traditional armour of what is a distinctive Godly appearance, as they age and grow older they invariably return to the distinctive appearance of Sardar that Punjabis are so proud of and are lent an austere God like demeanour with the donning. Such outwards mantles are not gotten easily, or are for the lacking in courage and independence of thought. Sheep like mentality, motivates the mob mostly towards conforming to any given standard mostly dictated by the highly dubious and questionable ethics of a volific media.

Shall we in defence our the Sikh faith of Warlords and Saintly men say it is only the highly honourable and courageous Lionhearts able to go against market trends and social fads and have the confidence to don this prestigious look. Maybe all that will remain is a league of the most beautiful devoutest, wise Sikh Sardars in full regalia carrying the faith and religion for lesser followers and adherents of Sikhism. 

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh ....


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## pk70 (Nov 30, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> , as they age and grow older they invariably return to the distinctive appearance of Sardar that Punjabis are so proud of and are lent an austere
> 
> 
> Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh ....



*jeetijohal ji
A humble request, please do not limit Sikh Sardari to Punjabis  only, it is for all Sikhs( if they keep appearance of a Sikh Sardar) regardless the place they live
*


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

PK70, The Punjab is the Motherland of all Sikhs regardless of where in the world they dwell and abide. It is not a matter of contention but of honouring the homeland.


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## lionprinceuk (Nov 30, 2008)

hmm ok this in reply to an earlier post iu can;t find lol:

maybe it is in the tat khalsa neo-seeq bible? 

if there is something in Sri Dasam Granth or Sri Sarbloh Granth, or even rehitnameh, then the gurdwaray are surely not even using these banis and texts to justify using lines of them.


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## lionprinceuk (Nov 30, 2008)

ok, and for khalsa all of Adi Guru Granth, dasam granth and sarbloh granth is guru, they r also seen as guru when amrit is taken


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

Lion_Prince_Jatinder said:


> ok, and for khalsa all of Adi Guru Granth, dasam granth and sarbloh granth is guru, they r also seen as guru when amrit is taken



Lion_PrinceJatinder ji,

Now you have posted something that truly reminds me of my ignorance. Please explain how all three granths are guru when amrit is taken. I am aware that prayers from Dasam Granth are recited along with the Bani in the Adi Granth during amrit ceremony. Would appreciate hearing from you as to how all three are guru.

Thanks


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## lionprinceuk (Nov 30, 2008)

Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth represent Guru Gobind Singh, and his banis. They also respresent bir ras, the warrior essence.

But most of all, this is how the nihang khalsa take amrit, and also this is how Adi Guru Granth Sahib is patkash, with sarbloh granth and dasam granth. This traditiona has been for centuries. 

Sinc eother sects sepaerated from them, they have forgotten about dasam fgranth for amrit due to british inluences. Also,  Sarbloh Granth was well kept by nihangs and so wouldn;t have become well known in outer circles such as teh british. 

For sehajdharis, I would say Adi Guru Granth Sahib is enough as Guru, unless warrior bani is required.

The nihang singhs respect the 3 Granth Sahib as Guru, and even use the terms adi guru darbar, dasam gur darabar, sarbloh gur darbar. I would say that is same as seeing the granths as guru as they are also used for amrit.


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## lionprinceuk (Nov 30, 2008)

i posted somethin, it didn;t post my broswe messed up lol

i will have to post again, but summary was that the dasam granth and sarbloh granth represent Guru Gobvind Singh and the bir rass, warrior essence. has been pratcised by nihangs for centuries, and has been forgotten as sects have broken off


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

Lion_Prince_Jatinder said:


> Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth represent Guru Gobind Singh, and his banis. They also respresent bir ras, the warrior essence.
> 
> But most of all, this is how the nihang khalsa take amrit, and also this is how Adi Guru Granth Sahib is patkash, with sarbloh granth and dasam granth. This traditiona has been for centuries.
> 
> ...



Lion_Prince_Jatinder ji,

Well I don't know what you posted that was lost. But the explanation above is very clear. Thanks very much for providing all these details. I had heard that Nihangs had a different amrit ceremony but did not know of the details. Got it!


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 7, 2009)

Ok,  I found out more knowledge today (from some other forum I think lol) So when Akali nihang Singhs and purataan sampradaiye do Akahand Paat, they have 4 birs, of which 3 are the 3 granth sahibs, and the other is japji sahib pothi. 

That is all...


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2009)

Lion_Prince_Jatinder said:


> Ok,  I found out more knowledge today (from some other forum I think lol) So when Akali nihang Singhs and purataan sampradaiye do Akahand Paat, they have 4 birs, of which 3 are the 3 granth sahibs, and the other is japji sahib pothi.
> 
> That is all...



Lion_Prince_Jatinder ji

Thanks once again. It seems that different sects within Sikhi consider various birs as Guru and this results from historical reasons that led to the formation of these sects in the first place.


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## ballym (Jan 19, 2009)

Jaspal Singh said:


> Problem is with the loose definition of Sikh.
> 
> Now a days every one call themself to be sikh whether mona, sharbi etc.
> 
> ...


 simple question to you... many may have asked earlier... was Guru Nanak Dev ji a sikh?
 How about panj kakkaars at that time of Guru  Nanak Devji . I know you will give a long winding explanation avoiding a direct yes /no answer... but your answer is not good enough for a common SIKH ..
 Give an answer which can be understood by all
To me, we all are sikh... hair or no hair..... kangha or no kangha... Guru Gobind singh Ji just made a sikh fauj of KHALSA with people required to protect hindus and all sikhs from muslim rulers... that is all... and it is LOGICAL.
 Guru Nanak dev ji asked all be logical... so practise this logic.... not what SGPC people want ... just to keep your money in their pocket.
 Please do not act like muslims by trying to muzzle this general logical line. Let me and those millions remain a sikh who regularly cut hairs 98% or 0.0004%.
 Do you keep all your hairs...
 I do not do any beadbi.... I just keep it manageable. You also manage them... I do it a little more.
 Why do u apply fixo. why do not you ask them to shut down fixo factory.... why plastik kanghi.... wooden one is required...
 Guru Nanak dev ji started his panth to take us all away from such faaltu points.. to prem and bhakti marg...
 Now do not say that.... I do not care , I will follow till my last breath.
 If your son/daughter does not follow it.. will you commit suicide?...      No... because Guru Nanak dev Ji never wanted us to forget logic in every act we do. No mere rituals please.
 No hard feelings... just let your religion grow... why do you waant to reduce your followers.
 Now a days many sikhs are going hindu ways... and other ways
 I can show you...
By the way.. you wote mona and sharabi  adjacent to each other... are these type of persons similar? are not you saying like a muslim saying that all non-muslims are kaafirs.


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## rooh (Aug 11, 2009)

People are not born with turbans on their heads.  This is cultural.  You are deviating from the real meaning of being a Sikh, which should be embodies in the way you conduct your life, not in what you wear. Are you telling us that people who don't cover their heads are not good sikhs.  How are any one us qualified to stand in judgment on others? That's for the lord himself to see.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 11, 2009)

rooh said:


> People are not born with turbans on their heads.  This is cultural.  You are deviating from the real meaning of being a Sikh, which should be embodies in the way you conduct your life, not in what you wear. Are you telling us that people who don't cover their heads are not good sikhs.  How are any one us qualified to stand in judgment on others? That's for the lord himself to see.



rooh ji...

well neither are babies born with razors or accompanied with barbers..he he.

Apart from that..I agree that we cannot judge other humans..especially as we cannot see well enough to make a good judgement.
The Keshadharees..the Amrtidharees have thier SRM..their rules and regulations to follow..and no one can FORCE anyone to JOIN.I have YET to see any one being dragged to an Amrit Sanchaar and FORCIBLY chhaked Pahul..but YES hundreds of thousands of such were DRAGGED to theri DEATHS - a simple act of Cutting their Hair would have SAVED their lives/bestowed Honours on them..BUT they REFUSED POINT BLANK to cut their KESH. Thats their CHOICE..we must all respect THAT CHOICE.
I am all for live and let live..let the amritdharees live their lives..let the cut hairs live their lives...both have a choice and they made it.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 11, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji said:



> YES hundreds of thousands of such were DRAGGED to theri DEATHS - a simple act of Cutting their Hair would have SAVED their lives/bestowed Honours on them..BUT they REFUSED POINT BLANK to cut their KESH. Thats their CHOICE..we must all respect THAT CHOICE.
> I am all for live and let live..let the amritdharees live their lives..let the cut hairs live their lives...both have a choice and they made it.



As one whose beloved family members made that choice and achieved shaheedi in 1984 and also in the years following - most were Amritdhari, some were not - I personally feel that every time I see a keshdhari Sikh, especially a turbaned one, male or female, their sacrifice is being honoured, they are being remembered in the way that would mean the most to them.  These Sikhs, in the uniform of the devout Sikh - Amritdhari or not - honour our Gurus, our shaheeds and - to me - what being a Sikh means.  I understand that it is socially difficult, even dangerous, and those who are not called upon to do this - we are all where we are on this path - might even be hypocritical to affect something they don't really embrace.

Still, I think those who do choose to adopt the Khalsa roop deserve a certain respect.  Beyond that, don't most of us just feel good when we see a Sikh in bana walking down the street?  I know I do.  :happy:

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 11, 2009)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Gyani Jarnail Singh ji said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mai Ji,
Gurfateh.

YES I do feel the Pride well up inside of me when i see a Full Banna wearing Khalsa..whether he is in a picture, on the telly, or on the street, or in the newspaper...
He/She reminds me of Bhai taru Singh, Bhai mani Singh, Bhai Shabaaz Singh, Bahi Subegh Singh, Bhai Jarnail Singh Bhinderawallah...Bhai Banda Singh, Bhai Zorawar Singh fateh Singh Ajit Singh Jhujhaar Singh..and a host of a FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND HEERAYS of the Glorious Panth..and force me to RETROSPECT on MY OWN FEELINGS..my INNER STRENGTH...will I BE able to EMULATE THEM..IF such a time comes on Me ?? Talk is cheap..but if push comes to shove..Can I take the HEAT ?? Can I stand the TEST of SIKHI ??
I write so much, Talk so much...made so many "enemies" (and friends) simply because of what I write/speak..BUT CAN I REALLY STAND BY and see my joint cut...scalp removed...and say Tera Bhanna Meetha laggeh ?? That is the 64 million dollar question..these Banna wearers awaken in me...
I have YET to answer myself convincingly...i plod along..hoping one day Guru Ji will provide the answer...:happy::happy::happy:


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 11, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh says:



> YES I do feel the Pride well up inside of me when i see a Full Banna wearing Khalsa..whether he is in a picture, on the telly, or on the street, or in the newspaper...
> He/She reminds me of Bhai taru Singh, Bhai mani Singh, Bhai Shabaaz Singh, Bahi Subegh Singh, Bhai Jarnail Singh Bhinderawallah...Bhai Banda Singh, Bhai Zorawar Singh fateh Singh Ajit Singh Jhujhaar Singh..and a host of a FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND HEERAYS of the Glorious Panth..and force me to RETROSPECT on MY OWN FEELINGS..my INNER STRENGTH...will I BE able to EMULATE THEM..IF such a time comes on Me ?? Talk is cheap..but if push comes to shove..Can I take the HEAT ?? Can I stand the TEST of SIKHI ??
> I write so much, Talk so much...made so many "enemies" (and friends) simply because of what I write/speak..BUT CAN I REALLY STAND BY and see my joint cut...scalp removed...and say Tera Bhanna Meetha laggeh ?? That is the 64 million dollar question..these Banna wearers awaken in me...
> I have YET to answer myself convincingly...i plod along..hoping one day Guru Ji will provide the answer...



How can any of us live up the the examples of our shaheeds?  They are a magnificent bunch! I am very honoured to have been the mother of one, the wife of another and the sister of two others.

I would advise you to be careful of what you ask for;  you may get it.  You cannot know until you are in the actual, physical situation.  

Twice in my life I have found myself in that sort of situation, first in the hands of the Punjab Police at the time of the Bluestar Massacre.  Guru Papa ji rescued me there, so I still don't know what might have happened.

The second was during the Delhi Pogrom where, frankly, my adrenaline level was so high that I probably would have exploded if I hadn't stood and fought.  Still I think all of us in our group acquitted ourselves well, but facing death is a lot easier than facing torture, so I still don't know.

And for what it's worth, I think I'll be happy to keep it that way.

Chardi kala!  :ice:  I really need that ice cream this time.

Mai


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## Archived_Member5 (Aug 12, 2009)

What is a true Sikh, one who has Sikhism ingrained into his genes and each pore and lives according to the doctrine passed down generation following generation of forefathers or what I call as yet ‘practising Sikhs’ those battling with the basic rules of conduct of coexistence and harmony, of morality and new fad modernism cunningly pecking away at traditional values and culture whilst licking at the boots of the church gates. 

Sikhism accords a pride and Nam to all who don its mantle and shield themselves in its apparel, blessed for being able to do so at a time Sikhs are shorn, abused, murdered, attacked and assaulted for their faith. The Blue star operation was tacitly permitted by the reluctance of any intervention by the media, as was the siege and destruction at Waco in the following decade. Many Hindu’s feel remorse for their leader’s actions against their Sikh neighbours yet we do not hear of any such sentiment let alone action from the western denizens of Sikhism in protest. 

Sikh ladies hold our elders, Menfolk and brothers with respect, a courtesy and strength considered a weakness in the west where women battle and compete, erode and denigrate mankind for their own self advancement and indulgence at the expense of men. In the home I was raised in women did not speak out in the company of men, and were deeply sensible and spiritually stronger for it. Silence is as Golden as the Temple Fortress. 

Sikhism affords the mantle of religiosity to those who seek it, some especially women who by the famous Corinthians Bible verse should really remain silent, use its prestigious armour to battle from within against the upholding pillars. Western women are loud and boorish and display a manner considered co{censored} and vulgar in Sikhi where women who are stronger in spirit for the silent resilience and dignity. We would not call them perfect but when compared to the new age damsels of feminism, they seem tame and compliant in comparison. The female moderators recent actions an indication of my worst suspicions being horrendously accurate. Whether white Sikhs will be a welcome addition of scar’s hyenas{The Lion King} barking at the feet of good men, time will soon reveal...

Blue Star is an operation where The Saint Sant Bhindranwalle was murdered whilst seeking shelter from a state army raiding and murdering all over Punjab searching to execute him and his men, a task they accomplished. Sikhs seek State independence and autonomy. This is the issue at stake, and not your personal boasting of what you have or have not lost. Punjab remains as it was prior to the 1984 tragedy. The ‘fireballs’ of this age speak verbosely of ‘’sacrifice’ and forbearance whilst the true martyr’s and shaheeds were brushed as dust under the headstones of their assassinated leader. The battle is an ongoing one and not a platform for personal self enhancement in the boasting of one’s part especially as the war and battle has to date remained futile given Americas media and states apparent reluctance in intervening for resolution of the events that occurred there. 

Regarding the matter of hair cutting, some are muune* and some adorn themselves in the traditional Sardar Sajje in appearance, it is a matter of one’s personal inclination than an issue to be derided, boasted or enforced. When the Sikhs heart turns to his Higher Soul the dupatta and turban is reached for and donned as a matter of pride and honour than a charade or enforced compliance, and should remain a privilege than boasted of by those who don the sacred shield of religious apparel. The elders speak wisdom and allow the younger Sikhs to live comfortably in foreign climes, mindful of their identity reassured they will find they way to orthodoxy should they be so called and inspired than demanding orthodoxy presumably to compensate for any lack or deficiency found in some who boats of their outward piety.

Maybe for the love of your men whom you profess to have lost you should tackle your government regarding State independence and an unresolved issue outstanding, maybe that would be the greatest role in this effort you could contribute...May sod spare us the sanctimonious ice-cream lickers...

YouTube - Sikhi and Women - Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale

**You are american women, drunk on your new found state given power, gained by the castigation and disembowelment of western men. Your attitude speaks volumes, I need say no more. I do not fight, nor allow battles within my home or life in general. The true warriorship is done by integrity and honour. You are feminists. I need not repeat my Guru's words as contained in the above video. As for ''high positions'' this is purely subjective to what can be construed as blatant abuse of power compensate for a lack of moral authority. Granted your creed hold me captive at this juncture, and laughable in their boasting of ''victory’s' in war, as for the moderator this attention seeking stance grows out of hand, I sense from links my Guru suffered a similar tale of a vile wench seeking endorsement itself battling to sustain its seat of corrupt power, I endeavour to desist from overly dramatising. Stay away from me, I am sure if my responses to your feeble attempts at distracting attention away from issues onto yourself can be handled by another senior, if the situation warrants such intervention.


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## spnadmin (Aug 12, 2009)

Jeeti johal ji

Know that I don't even like ice cream -- but in your words, _Maybe for the love of your men whom you profess to have lost you should tackle your government regarding State independence and an unresolved issue outstanding, maybe that would be the greatest role in this effort you could contribute...May sod spare us the sanctimonious ice-cream lickers...

_Would you please help me and others understand your  pattern of scorn and apparent deep contempt for other women, particularly if they are "modern" as per your opinion, particularly if they are western women, and particularly if they have positions of leadership in this forum. I am getting numerous messages in which forum members (mostly men)  are asking me to explain your anti-woman biases and I don't know what to tell them.  So far I have told them -- Oh well ! That is just the way jeeti ji is...but maybe you could assist with the explanation. :}{}{}:Thank you_
_


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Aug 12, 2009)

Narayanjot ji,

I would be the sanctimonious ice cream licker.  Yum, yum!  :ice:  And proud of it.  I believe it will now go after my name, right after Crazy Religious fanatic and The Nutter.

This whole post is an attack aimed at me. Perhaps I should just stand back and, keeping quiet womanly dignity, let it pass.  After all, I need not defend myself;  my life speaks for itself.  I stand or fall on that basis.

I am a Singhni, a Sardarni in the tradition of Mai Bhago.    I have fought in battle beside my men, fallen and gotten back up to fight some more.  Notice we fought together, not him protecting me as I hid, whimpering in some corner.  :8-  If I wanted to be a quiet little submissive Christian wife, I would be a quiet little submissive Christian wife.  I do not and I am not and I will not.NO@:

I am a Kaur who has stood proudly beside her Singh, his equal in peace and war.

Bhai Jeetijohal ji,
I believe I detect a note of a most unSikh sort of racism in your tirade starting with:


> What is a true Sikh, one who has Sikhism ingrained into his genes


and continuing with


> Whether white Sikhs will be a welcome addition of scar’s hyenas{The Lion King} barking at the feet of good men, time will soon reveal...




I suppose, with a Punjabi father and a (mostly) French mother, I would qualify as an off-white Sikh.

On a very serious note, while I have great respect for Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, I do not regard him as infallible.  He  is not Guru ji, he is not a Nanak.  He is a man, a Khalsa, a great warrior, an honoured shaheed.  I respect and honour that.  He was a great leader at a crucial time in our history.  

However, I strongly disagree with his views on women.  Perhaps I am loud, vulgar and prideful, even self-righteous and sanctimonious.  Nonetheless, I have every right to express my ideas and opinions.  I try to express myself politely, even when personally attacked.  

However, in the end, I subscribe to the old saw, "the art of being a woman is knowing when not to be a lady."  

Chardi kala!  :ice:

Mai, TINK, CRf, TN, SICL :rofl!!:


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## Archived_Member5 (Aug 13, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> What is a true Sikh, one who has Sikhism ingrained into his genes and each pore and lives according to the doctrine passed down generation following generation of forefathers or what I call as yet ‘practising Sikhs’ those battling with the basic rules of conduct of coexistence and harmony, of morality and new fad modernism cunningly pecking away at traditional values and culture whilst licking at the boots of the church gates.
> 
> Sikhism accords a pride and Nam to all who don its mantle and shield themselves in its apparel, blessed for being able to do so at a time Sikhs are shorn, abused, murdered, attacked and assaulted for their faith. The Blue star operation was tacitly permitted by the reluctance of any intervention by the media, as was the siege and destruction at Waco in the following decade. Many Hindu’s feel remorse for their leader’s actions against their Sikh neighbours yet we do not hear of any such sentiment let alone action from the western denizens of Sikhism in protest.
> 
> ...


 
WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WAheGuru Ji Ki Fateh...

YouTube - Sikhi and Women - Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale

It is noted each time an issue is discussed a troll immediately intervenes and diverts attention away from progressing, resolving or discussing onto its own personal need for attention. As for racial issues, Americans terrorising the world, forcing nations to defend themselves to opportune you of casting accusations of terrorism or racism is indeed, Laughable. Spare me your childish ranting and pathetic effort at political spin doctoring in transferring your own sin unto the victim. Os wenches of course you would deny the sanctity of all and any true Saint who did not submit to wenches. Sant Ji too was battling a frustrated widow hell bent on subjugation or destruction of any Saint, Messiah or Prophet, The Book of Bible Revelations goes on. Western men may have reverted to homosexuality, batcher hood or abstinence to escape these feminists I refuse to iron out what is a monstrosity spawned of their stupidity. We do not such problems of insolence and insatiable lust for power and limelight amongst native Punjabi and Eastern Ladies who are powerful and generous spirited enough to be able to honour their Men, fathers, Brothers, Sons and Spouses than compete and battle with them for a dominance thwarted by its own need.
 
I refuse to pander to your attention seeking, or embroil myself in needles rhetoric. In future kindly maintain a distance from Me. ...


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## amarpreet41 (Aug 13, 2009)

There are lot of efforts going on to save the turban and motivate sikh youth to keep hairs un shorn..

www.pagrihouse.com is one of the effort, making sikh turbans available to sikhs across the globe..


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## spnadmin (Aug 13, 2009)

jeeti ji

Here is what is mystifying about your reactions to western women 

**You are american women, drunk on your new found state given power, gained by the castigation and disembowelment of western men. 
If the state gives us power, then that same  state could order the castigation and disembowelment and western women would not have to get their hands dirty. And if the state gives us power, then that means we don't have any real power of our own. It all belongs to the state. So why blame western women or hold us accountable. All  blame for our wrongdoings belongs to the all-powerful state. 

Your attitude speaks volumes, I need say no more. I do not fight, nor allow battles within my home or life in general. 

I dont' battle either at home especially. My husband is a really nice guy and we don't usually fight. Not that I have castigated or disemboweled him, but if you want his word for it, it can be arranged. 

The true warriorship is done by integrity and honour. You are feminists.

What is a feminist?

 I need not repeat my Guru's words as contained in the above video.

Who is your Guru? That is a really important question if we want to understand you better, and we really do.

 As for ''high positions'' this is purely subjective to what can be construed as blatant abuse of power compensate for a lack of moral authority. 

The average forum reader would want to know how power was abused and by whom and against whom. How did Mai abuse her power? I already know that you think I abuse mine. When did I do that?

Granted your creed hold me captive at this juncture, 
What is my creed? What is Mai ji's creed? 

and laughable in their boasting of ''victory’s' in war, as for the moderator this attention seeking stance grows out of hand, 

Moderators can and do go public when they moderate. And they can also moderate from a Control Panel and no one knows they are doing it. When moderating from beind a control panel, there is no attention getting, because no one can see you. 

I sense from links my Guru suffered a similar tale of a vile wench seeking endorsement itself battling to sustain its seat of corrupt power, 

What links and what seat of power?

I endeavour to desist from overly dramatising. Stay away from me, 

Neither Mai nor I are very close  in fact we are thousands of miles away. So we are really not likely to cling to you. Why are you concerned about this?

I am sure if my responses to your feeble attempts at distracting attention away from issues onto yourself can be handled by another senior, if the situation warrants such intervention. 

A woman that is not a Lady is a wench

What is a lady in your own words? You say up above,  In the home I was raised in women did not speak out in the company of men, and were deeply sensible and spiritually stronger for it. But you are now in the company of men and are doing a lot of talking. So when and why did you change your mind? Talking and attention seeking can't be the reason for being a wench. It has to be some other unladylike thing.

So why do you find western women so obnoxious.


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## Archived_Member5 (Aug 13, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WAheGuru Ji Ki Fateh...Originally Posted by *jeetijohal*
> 
> 
> _What is a true Sikh, one who has Sikhism ingrained into his genes and each pore and lives according to the doctrine passed down generation following generation of forefathers or what I call as yet ‘practising Sikhs’ those battling with the basic rules of conduct of coexistence and harmony, of morality and new fad modernism cunningly pecking away at traditional values and culture whilst licking at the boots of the church gates. _
> ...


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## spnadmin (Aug 13, 2009)

jeeti ji

Here it is - another statement, a modified version of the first one. "**You are american women, drunk on your new found state given power, gained by the castigation and disembowelment of western men. Your attitude speaks volumes, I need say no more. I do not fight, nor allow battles within my home or life in general. The true warriorship is done by integrity and honour. You are feminists. I need not repeat my Guru's words as contained in the above video. As for ''high positions'' this is purely subjective to what can be construed as blatant abuse of power compensate for a lack of moral authority. Granted your creed hold me captive at this juncture, and laughable in their boasting of ''victory’s' in war, as for the moderator this attention seeking stance grows out of hand, I sense from links my Guru suffered a similar tale of a vile wench seeking endorsement itself battling to sustain its seat of corrupt power, I endeavour to desist from overly dramatising. Stay away from me, I am sure if my responses to your feeble attempts at distracting attention away from issues onto yourself can be handled by another senior, if the situation warrants such intervention. A woman that is not a Lady is a wench We also note you compare yourself to the beautiful, Noble and Great Spirit of Mother Bhago than your native equally brave Warrior Queen Boadicea in the knowledge that Boadicea’s adorers would laughingly pour scorn upon your audacity..."

Here is a similar version of the same, posted earlier in the thread. "
**You are american women, drunk on your new found state given power, gained by the castigation and disembowelment of western men. Your attitude speaks volumes, I need say no more. I do not fight, nor allow battles within my home or life in general. The true warriorship is done by integrity and honour. You are feminists. I need not repeat my Guru's words as contained in the above video. As for ''high positions'' this is purely subjective to what can be construed as blatant abuse of power compensate for a lack of moral authority. Granted your creed hold me captive at this juncture, and laughable in their boasting of ''victory’s' in war, as for the moderator this attention seeking stance grows out of hand, I sense from links my Guru suffered a similar tale of a vile wench seeking endorsement itself battling to sustain its seat of corrupt power, I endeavour to desist from overly dramatising. Stay away from me, I am sure if my responses to your feeble attempts at distracting attention away from issues onto yourself can be handled by another senior, if the situation warrants such intervention."

Needless to say you have the courage of your convictions. The choice to clear this up is* your* choice. Clear it up here at SPN and clear the air. You also have the choice to ignore my request. Either way the decision you make speaks volumes.


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## aman1234 (Sep 8, 2009)

mr max314 it first seems that u r not a sikh.
its very easy to say "let everyone choose their lifestyle." We r also not applying pressure on them.
its the gift of lord this sikhi. Those who r not following it are not in their right senses.
And to clear it soon, by sikh i mean a person (can be of any relegion ) who follows his guru or lord's path. he always follows the right path, the path of truth. 
those that first promise to be a sikh and then shy away from it are mistaken by maaya.
they should pray to god daily and ask for a good mind.


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## spnadmin (Sep 8, 2009)

aman1234 ji

Forum member Max314 may simply be presenting a different perspective for the sake of lively discussion. I think that was what he was doing, and was not trying to be controversial. however...

*Yes*, when someone is content to make up the rules as he/she goes along, and pick the rules he/she wants to follow -- that says a lot. Interestingly, in Sikhism a person can progress, or move in steps,  to the stage of keeping the 5 k's and may still profess to be an adherent of Sikhism. Other religions do *not* offer such a degree of latitude for the individual to evolve toward their religious ideal. It amazes me that those who have not proceeded that far claim to have the right, or even the obligation, to criticize and question the intentions of those who do. It is like "biting the hand that feeds you." What kind of Sikhism is it without panj pyare? Who are the panj pyare without the amritdhari?


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## Harry Haller (Oct 16, 2011)

max314 said:


> It's a lifestyle choice and, as long as it isn't harming anyone else, no-one has the right to ridicule or make snide remarks about people who make that choice.
> 
> I see a surprising amount of intolerance coming from a people who originally built their reputation on the back of tolerance and acceptance.
> 
> Have you ever thought that it is perhaps this exact kind of scolding and stuck-up attitude towards "how it should be" that is driving people away - if, of course, that _is_ the case.



welcomekaur I would be more interested in what you think personally hoform22xuji


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Oct 16, 2011)

Perhaps a slightly different approach might be useful.  

Why keep kesh?  Aside from the fact that it is beautiful, it may seem like a useless exercise when taken as an isolated aspect of being a Sikh.  

Think of a well written  computer programme.  It has everything necessary to run the programme with nothing that is unnecessary.  Along the way, the good programmer will embed notes that are not part of the programme so that those reading the code can understand what is being accomplished along the way.  If the programme is entered correctly into the computer, it will run exactly as it should and produce the desired outcome, assuming the computer itself has sufficient resources to run that particular programme.  

Sikhi, or rather the Guru Khalsa Panth, is somewhat like a perfectly written computer programme.  Everything is necessary for the programme to run as it is intended to.  Nothing is extraneous.  The 5 kakkars, the 4 kurahits, the 3 prayer times and all the other parts that may seem useless or even weird taken singularly, are each a vital part of the whole.  Take any out and the programme won't run properly, if at all.   Our Eternal Guru is the notes and explanations of the programmer, but is also much, much more.  It is the programmer speaking personally, individually to each of us, telling us what we need to know at that particular point in the programme.

That is not to say that some parts of the programme are not useful on their own.  There are as many subprogrammes and subroutines as there are situations in each of our lives.    These are useful on their own, certainly, but by themselves, they are not the whole programme and cannot possibly give the same results as the whole programme would.  This is not a judgment against anyone;  it is a simple, logical fact.  

So, if you wonder about some of the parts of Sikhi that seem meaningless to you personally, you have several choices.  You can leave entirely (please don't), you can follow those parts that make sense to you or you can do your best to run the whole programme.  I guarantee it won't run smoothly on  the first try unless you're a sant of some sort, but eventually, it will run and the results will be worth the effort.  

BTW, if you are a Sikh, you do have sufficient resources to run this programme, so please don't use that as an excuse.


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## dilgeer (Nov 14, 2011)

I feel the time is approaching When Turbaned Sikhs would be rarely seen in India and All those of us who take pride in saying "Sikhi is in heart" only would be visible. Same way as Buddhism originated in India but is hardly visible here but has flourished outside India.

As per my humble Opinion, Below are Major causes:

1. Senseless Slogans of Khalistan: I dont know why so much energy and money is being wasted in this agenda which shall not be in the interests of the people. It has taken away all the focus from the real current issues of illiteracy, casteism, Patit etc in Sikhi. If Khalistan is a piece of Land, then I dont wish it and infact am against it. If it is a concept, then you could accomplish the same through your system called SGPC. This concept is filling us with hatred and making us one-eyed.

2. Our obsession with SGPC: Panth was flourishing while SGPC was not in place. The Message of the Gurus was being spread to all corners of the world. On the contrary, SGPC has given chance to power hungry, self-centered, selfish people to lead sikh masses and people who have been serving in the real sense have been deliberately left out. Huge amounts of Sangat Maya is being looted and no budget is being allocated to strengthen the Prachaar system.

3. Lack of literature available to the masses: Christians distribute free books, CDs, Pictures to spread the message of the Christ. How much is being done by us. We are happy in building Gurudwaras, and not the real Gurudwara of human mind and body. We are yet to understand and acknowledge the concept.

4. Ego-Centredness and Corruption in almost all Sikh Jathebandis: Why this problem of Patit is being allowed to go unattended ? Bcoz our so-called leaders who are hungry for power are busy investing their brains to gain the throne of power. Every Jathebandi is saying Badal is Chor and is hurting panth, but they still cant come under one umbrella since their ego hurts. Senseless Leaders like Simranjit Mann are wayward as always chanting Khalistan every time they speak, which has no basis to support.

So the real issues like that of Patit are being resorted too. It would need people's movement to resurrect it. There are many good people at work who have been making change at micro level. We have to stop looking at SGPC bcoz I dare say "SGPC or AKAL TAKHT IS NOT ULTIMATE BUT SANGAT IS". If our Guru could refuse marriage proposal of Chandu on request or Hukam of Sangat, then So has to be done by Akal Takht if Sangat wishes it to be so. SikhSangat is the Supreme, not White Clad Masands.


Bhul Chukk Maaf.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (Mar 14, 2012)

The future of Sikhi is not just in India/Punjab...It is International.

The purpose of Sikhi is for one to become so Pure that there is no distinguishable property between us to our dear lord creator...because when we become that Pure, god lives and breathes through us literally because there are no more obstructions left in our minds (ego, attachment, anger, desire, greed).

The purer in Mind you become the more natural it becomes to not touch ones hair..you will feel more connected to ever cell in your body, the force that drives your body, the naam inside all of us...you then don't want or have the need ti disrupt the godly processes that are occuring inside your every living cell including your flowing hair.

Once we attain this, then our outer form Turban, long hair and other 5 k's stand us out from the croud....We become like LIGHTHOUSES...that shine the light to all around us that are in the dark...we help guide the MASSES across.


This is our purpose. there may only be a very very small percentage of Sikhs that become 100% Pure Khalsa Sikhs through which god shines...but when times hit critical point...people will turn to these enlightened souls to guide them.

Don't be dis-heartened at people cutting their hair, losing faith, wanting to be like others, having a fear to be different or being picked on...This is their SOUL JOURNEY...everything is Gods play...these souls all have to learn from their own destined path...We all have been learning on our path.

Please all watch this Tribute Video to Satnaam Yogi Bhajan Ji.
He kept Sikhi alive, took it to the western world...and single handedly managed to shine the light of Guru Ji in a foreign land where people are now embracing sikhi in such a glorius way.

Be the Lighthouse - Tribute to Yogi Bhajan      - YouTube


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## chazSingh (Mar 16, 2012)

kanwaljs said:


> Very good suggestions by Respected chazSingh ji. Although it is going on in the hukam of God Almighty but one should raise objections for this game of 'patitpuna' going on, as when blind is falling in the deep well, the normal person should have to warn once that there is a deep well in front of him. As in the sikh history 'Chali Mukte' later driven by their shame and rallied by Mai Bhago the 40 men, who had denied their Guru and left Anandpur, returned to seek out their Guru and beg his forgiveness. Mai Bhago and other wives of 39 men who raised strong objections against their husband's deed, lead to the path of Mukti for their husbands.
> 
> Kanwaljit Singh


 
Satnaam Kanwaljit Ji,

God bless you and the Sangat. We all feel the same things. When we object to something in-order to show the light...this is gods loving grace.
The other person is not listening to their inner self, they listen to their minds instead...and the mind always looks outwards...and hence Guru ji will use the breath and speach of another to show the other person the correct way.

But it is only truely Guru Ji's grace when our objections are not fueled by anger, being upset, hurt of our Ego. Only our own truthful actions will show the other person the light.

I have long hair. I'm now 32 years of age. During my Teenager years my mind also torchured me wanting to cut my hair...i resisted. But even with my outwardly sikh appearance, i was still fueled by Lust, ego, Desire, Anger and Greed. The hair was a hindrance to my actions and thoughts under the 5 thieves...hence why i wanted to remove my hair.

It was only from the age of around 26 onwards that i started to understand the realy true purpose of the hair. Before that i did it because i thought it was just an instruction from Guru Ji, or because my parents and family told me so.

Too many of our youth do not feel connected to their hair, nor do they know the really purpose of it, and the power of it when conducted with the universal infinte power of Simran. The root cause of cutting ones hair 
comes from the torture of the 5 thieves in ones mind.

Its the methods that are available to fight the* root cause* that should be tought to our kids. The gurdwaras should be filled with Children and parents doing Simran...explaining the power of Simran, the purpose of looking after our body including hair to Aid in our efforts to do Simran.

I now do Simran/mediation on a daily basis. i've experienced so much in such a short space of time that i'm never going to turn my back...and my hair is an integral part to my journey ahead 

God bless us all


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## Luckysingh (Mar 16, 2012)

There is so much power in simran and meditation that when one practices an automatic attachment to the keeping of hair is attained along with many other strengths and qualities.
I agree and understand that it is the power of the 5 thieves that are the root in someone parting with their khes. Thus, they forget the true meaning of khes as a result of this.

Waheguru


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 18, 2012)

Prabh Ka simran sabh te Ucha.........
*TRUTH is HIGH*...BUT HIGHER STILL IS *TRUTHFUL LIVING*...........stress on *LIVING..LIFE...our DAILY LIVES*..what we do daily..GURBANI is *JEEVAN JAACH*..the WAY to TRUTHFUL LIVING...PRACTICAL LIFE...

He is TRUTH...SATNAAM........and we all know how very very very extremely difficult it is to be TRUTH..24/7..  365 days...for 80++ YEARS... Just watch the extremely funny film LIAR LIAR....and IF that stage is so HIGH...what about TRUTHFUL LIVING ???

IF ALL Sikhs practiced THAT....no sikh would be a lawyer..or need a lawyer...the WORD would be written in stainless steel........BUT is IT for real ?? Just about every sikh i know..needs Lawyers because...???? life without LIES/LAWYERS is impossible...ha ha SIKHS go to Court and LIE...and pay lawyers to LIE..ha ha and DENY written Agreements..( forget about WORD given orally...ha ha )

BOTTOM LINE" TRUTHFUL LIVING is a 24/7 COMMITMENTjapposatnamwaheguru:.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanwalji ji,I hope I am not too far off base when I suggest that the Deity is never displeased.  At least that is how I read "nirbau, nirvair."


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## Harry Haller (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanwaljsji



> The birth as a human being is very difficult, before taking birth as a human one has to take birth in 84 lakhs ‘yonis’ according to one’s deeds



This is not a given, there are some of us that believe otherwise



> If someone percives birth as human being he/she has to find a good teacher (guru) to attain eternal happiness and peace in his/her own life. It requires MUCH LABOUR to find a 'poora guru' (complete and perfect teacher), who helps in one’s journey of mind and conduct to attain eternal happiness and peace



It does not require much labour at all, the complete and perfect teacher is there for all of us in the SGGS.



> We could have achieved more benefits from 'poora guru' and can proceed further, but not to WASTE our past hard labour of good deeds BY GOING AGAINST THE SIKH PRINCIPLES.



Sometimes I wonder whether Sikhism is a competition with the prize being enlightenment, rather than just a code of living



> HAIRS ON THE HUMAN BODY IS BY NATURE, AND GOING AGAINST THIS NATURE COULD ATTRACT HIS DISPLEAURE FOR A SIKH.



At the risk of offence, I think 'it' describes Creator better than 'his', We are not Christians, God did not make us in his image, Creator is formless, and I think Creator is beyond the very human feeling of displeasure, as Bhainji said above. 



> The God in his Will and wisdom has created the complete human being. To interfere with the God given body by circumcision, puffing a hole in the ear or nose and cutting or dyeing the hair are prohibited and treated as disobedience to God’s Will. A God fearing person can never prefer his will and wish to prevail over the God’s Will and can never make any alterations in the God gifted boon, which could attract His displeasure.



I do not fear God, I fear having no connection to Creator. The Abrahamic religions rule through fear, Sikhism is more about love, love for Creation, for Creator, any fear comes from not having that love, from being alone. 



> The 'bea-adabi of ‘keshas' is the 'ghor apmaan of our great gurus'. The punishment of such type of deed is written in gurbani as
> 
> 
> 'sant kea dukhan trigad jon kirmaye' (Sukhmani Sahib)-5th Guru Nanak, Ang 279 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> ...



Moving swiftly on to Vedicism, again more fear based rhetoric, this is the only life we get in my view, and I was not aware Creator punished. 



> So, it is fundamental rule for Sikhs not to cut their hairs.
> Today’s science is also saying that hairs are beneficial to human.
> 
> We (Sikhs) all are the sons and daughters of Great Guru Gobind Singh ji, we should accept the sikh traditions with courage and happiness as the children of lion and not to cut our hairs.



I disagree, I think it is a fundamental rule that Sikhs realise naam and through that realisation have no wish to cut hair and are happy with that concept. You seem to be jumping the gun, this is no more good advice than a corporal who wishes to become a General, merely thinking he can do so by donning a Generals uniform

Regards


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## kanwaljs (Apr 19, 2012)

Not to loose the True Guru’s Grace​ 
  The birth as a human being is very difficult, before taking birth as a human one has to take birth in 84 lakhs ‘yonis’ according to one’s deeds. If someone percives birth as human being he/she has to find a good teacher (guru) to attain eternal happiness and peace in his/her own life. It requires MUCH LABOUR to find a 'poora guru' (complete and perfect teacher), who helps in one’s journey of mind and conduct to attain eternal happiness and peace. In other words , IT IS VERY DIIFFICULT TO GET BIRTH AS A HUMAN BEING AND IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO GET BIRTH IN A SIKH FAMILY OR  ANYHOW NEARNESS TO ‘POORA GURU’. As we (Sikh) got the nearness  of ‘poora guru' (complete and perfect teacher) by our past good deeds, as baani says  
'purab likhat likhe gur paeiya'                                               -4<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 13 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

'Bhag hova gur sant milaya, 
  prabh abinasi ghar mean payiya'                                        -5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 97 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

We could have achieved more benefits from 'poora guru' and can proceed further,  but not to WASTE our past hard labour of good deeds BY GOING AGAINST THE SIKH PRINCIPLES.

It is easy to become a Doctor, an Engineer, a Pilot or any other good professionalist but it is very difficult to earn 'Dharma' by making good deeds in our life. So, one should not waste this type of labour by going against the sikh traditions.

The importance of ‘poora guru' is very great, as baani says

'poorea gur ka sun updesh, 
  parbrahm nikat kar pekh'                       (Sukhmani Sahib)-5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 295 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  Our great Guru directly connects us to the God Almighty and God is in His nature, as even 1<sup>st</sup> GURU NANAK’s baani says

  ‘balihari kudrat vasiya, tera ant na jayi lakhiya’-Guru Nanak, Ang 463 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  Japji Sahib’s 1<sup>st</sup> pauri says ‘Hukam rajai chalana Nanak likhiya naal’ ,as we have to follow His DIVINE WILL  and respect the NATURE.          -Guru Nanak, Ang 01 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  HAIRS ON THE HUMAN BODY IS BY NATURE, AND GOING AGAINST THIS NATURE COULD ATTRACT HIS DISPLEAURE  FOR A SIKH.
  The God in his Will and wisdom has created the complete human being. To interfere with the God given body by circumcision, puffing a hole in the ear or nose and cutting or dyeing the hair are prohibited and treated as disobedience to God’s Will. A God fearing person can never prefer his will and wish to prevail over the God’s Will and can never make any alterations in the God gifted boon, which could attract His displeasure. 

  Guru Nanak Sahib gives the highest place to ‘Nimarta’ (‘hirdey di garibi’) and saying that 
  ‘Naam beej santokh suhaga rakh garibi veas’                       -Guru Nanak, Ang 565 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  When a person becomes very humble (having ‘Nimarta’) he becomes prideless and he obeys God’s divine order or His will very happily.
  ‘Kudrat kare jhano, jot is bhave nanaka hukam soi parvano   -Guru Nanak, Ang 25 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  ‘Nanak hukme je bujhe ta huame kahe na koe’     -Guru Nanak(Japji Sahib), Ang 1 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  According to the principles of  Guru Nanak in Sri Guru Granth Sahib it is also written like that 
  ‘Sabat surat dastaar sira’                                                 -5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 1084 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  ‘Kar kirpa Apna daras dije jas gavao nis ar bhor,
  Kes sang das pag jharao ehoo manorath mor’                  -5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 500 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 

  One who loves God, who equally loves His creatures. Guru sahib praises the symbols of ‘sargun sarup’ of  Akalpurakh (God) in human being, then  says like that

  ‘Tere banke loen dant risaala, sohne nak jin lamde wala’     -Guru Nanak, Ang 567 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


In whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) on almost every Ang (page) there is written about 
  (i)                  ‘Kudrat’ (Nature)
  (ii)                 ‘Bhana’ (will of GOD)
  (iii)               ‘Hukam’ (divine order)
  (iv)              ‘Nimarta’ (humble and politeness) or prideless
  All of the above qualities very clearly implies that every sikh must be keshadhari. 
  All the sikh gurus respected the nature and were ‘keshadhari’ and so were their Sikhs. GURU GOBIND SINGHJI  MADE THE ‘REHAT’ FROM GURU NANAK’S PRINCIPLES. 

The 'bea-adabi of  ‘keshas' is the 'ghor apmaan of our great gurus'. The punishment of such type of deed is written in gurbani as


  'sant kea dukhan trigad jon kirmaye'    (Sukhmani Sahib)-5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 279 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 

Sikh who cuts his hairs is  called ‘patit sikh’. The 'patit sikh' even CAN NOT get birth as human being, but will get birth in the bad and lowest 'yonis'.

Many things does not change, God (nature) has grown hairs on the human body and still human babies beings born with hairs on their body and when they grown up, more hairs are grown on their body as beard and moustache. Our sikh gurus tried to directly connect us to the God and His nature.
                          ‘Pooja Akal ki’                                                              -Guru Gobind Singh
   ‘Khalsa Akal Purukh ki fauj’                                           -Guru Gobind Singh
  ‘balihari kudrat vasiya,
              tera ant na jayi lakhiya’-Guru Nanak, Ang 463 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji              ‘duyi kudrat saajiea kar aasan ditho chaoo’   -Guru Nanak, Ang 463 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
                          ‘sachchi teri kudrat sachhea paatshah’           -Guru Nanak, Ang 463 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  So, it is fundamental rule for Sikhs not to cut their hairs.
  Today’s science is also saying that hairs are beneficial to human.

  We (Sikhs) all are the sons and daughters of Great Guru Gobind Singh ji, we should accept the sikh traditions with courage and happiness as the children of lion and not to cut our hairs.​


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## Harry Haller (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanwaljsji, 

Do you have anything original to say rather than the the above which was copied from http://www.topix.com/forum/blogs/TPH9445VA3O25UH78/p76

and has now been posted on this forum on several threads?

Although its quite entertaining to see the same post again and again, you may wish to consider some original content of your own


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## chazSingh (Jun 8, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Kanwaljsji,
> 
> Do you have anything original to say rather than the the above which was copied from http://www.topix.com/forum/blogs/TPH9445VA3O25UH78/p76
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Ji,

This is the first time i have read the information by Kanwaljsji,
Sometimes valuable information and insight gets lost in old forums, extremely long forums, so please Kanwaljsji please keep posting if you feel the truth will get to NEW forum users or users who pass by from time to time.

We hear various paats over and over in the gurdwara, but even if one may have heard it so often that they can recite it themselves, we never say we want new material do we? because the next soul to walk through the doors may be in need of that shabad.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2012)

Chazji, 

Just so I can understand your logic, your suggesting Kanwaljsji carries on posting the same identical post on different topics without any new information or amendment?

Should we all then post our thoughts 10 or 20 times on various topics,   just so that we can ensure no one misses them?

Also there is the topic of plagiarism, google some of the text and it is patently obvious that Kanwaljsji did not write this, yet has not made any reference to the original author, which I believe is in violation of SPN TOS

namely

14. Plagiarism is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. If you copy posts from others and pass them as if they're yours, you will be severely punished.

Many thanks for a first class example of how you think you may be encouraging 'goodness' when in fact you are assisting in violation of the terms of this site

winkingmunda


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## chazSingh (Jun 8, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji,
> 
> Just so I can understand your logic, your suggesting Kanwaljsji carries on posting the same identical post on different topics without any new information or amendment?
> 
> ...


 
My point is only that information gets lost in posts, and users do not vist all threads and read through every reply posted on them. A new user, or someone that has just visited this thread, for them it may be 'New' information, some 'new' insight. So we shouldnt dis-courage him posting the information, especially if it contains some 'Truth' in it.

Yes, i agree that sometimes, coming across the same 'copy' and 'pasted' information over and over is tedious, but we don't all need to read it over and over  a quick click on the scroll down button, and we're to the next post. Meanwhile someone that hasnt read the post may find it useful.

Kanwalji, please try to put reference on your emails for the rules of this forum.


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## kanwaljs (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re:*

Respected Sir,
                      The above topic 'A Sikh Without His Flowing Hair and Turban' is not written by me. I had tried to answer through my lekh  'The Importance of Kesh for a sikh', so that I copied and pasted some portion from my lekh to some of other person's topics in the SPN. Actually, I do not know how to use SPN. Sorry, for the inconvenience.
Regards,
Kanwaljit Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 11, 2012)

kanwaljs said:


> Not to loose the True Guru’s Grace​
> The birth as a human being is very difficult, before taking birth as a human one has to take birth in 84 lakhs ‘yonis’ according to one’s deeds. If someone percives birth as human being he/she has to find a good teacher (guru) to attain eternal happiness and peace in his/her own life. It requires MUCH LABOUR to find a 'poora guru' (complete and perfect teacher), who helps in one’s journey of mind and conduct to attain eternal happiness and peace. In other words , IT IS VERY DIIFFICULT TO GET BIRTH AS A HUMAN BEING AND IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO GET BIRTH IN A SIKH FAMILY OR  ANYHOW NEARNESS TO ‘POORA GURU’.​



Are you sure, birth as a human being is very difficult. I think it takes hardly few minutes. Every year, every day millions of people are taking birth. We have now seven billion human being. As modern technology is able to produce billion and billions of chickens, same way who know tommorrows technology may contribute human population to 100 billion.

Gurbani tells us, these seven billion people infact are, 'pasu manas cham platai androh kaalia - animals wrapped in human skin. SGGS.1284.11.  Yes, once 'satgur kai janmai - then we are human and that is difficult. 

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## chazSingh (Jun 11, 2012)

japjisahib04 said:


> Are you sure, birth as a human being is very difficult. I think it takes hardly few minutes. Every year, every day millions of people are taking birth. We have now seven billion human being. As modern technology is able to produce billion and billions of chickens, same way who know tommorrows technology may contribute human population to 100 billion.
> 
> Gurbani tells us, these seven billion people infact are, 'pasu manas cham platai androh kaalia - animals wrapped in human skin. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.1284.11. Yes, once 'satgur kai janmai - then we are human and that is difficult.
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Mohinder Singh Ji,

I do not think he was talking about the actual physical birth process. He was talking about the difficulty in obtaining the human birth for a soul that is wandering through 8.4 million lifetimes. 

For an individual soul, to go through the 8.4 million lifecycles, the human birth is the most precious, and when we finally obtain this human life, we either reach god consciousness or we waste the life and no one but god knows when we will obtain another chance.

lakh cho*u*r*aa*s*ee*h bhramath*i**aa* dh*u*labh janam p*aa*e*i*oue ||
_Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this *rare and precious human life*. Siree Raag 50_


Also Ji, I hope humans continue to pupulate in as natural way as possible without similar technology as used for chickens  Over population will also not be good in the long run.


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## chazSingh (Jun 11, 2012)

japjisahib04 said:


> Are you sure, birth as a human being is very difficult. I think it takes hardly few minutes. Every year, every day millions of people are taking birth. We have now seven billion human being. As modern technology is able to produce billion and billions of chickens, same way who know tommorrows technology may contribute human population to 100 billion.
> 
> Gurbani tells us, these seven billion people infact are, 'pasu manas cham platai androh kaalia - animals wrapped in human skin. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.1284.11. Yes, once 'satgur kai janmai - then we are human and that is difficult.
> 
> ...


 
Also Mohinder Singh Ji Ji,

Please ask the many women who are giving birth if it is easy, and also if it takes only a couple of minutes


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 11, 2012)

S. Chaz Singh Ji

You are really intelligent. No need for me to check with any lady. There are several delivery  operation on You tube lasting not more than ten minutes.  But I was not referring to delivery but conceiving the baby. 

Further, I am surprised when gurbani tells us, laikha hoey ta likhiyee.. then how could you reach a fix number of reincarnation. In the sabd 'lakh chorasi' is only a saying and ego and duality is context of the sabd. Sabd is not referring to physical birth but transformation from 'Manh di matt' to 'guru ki matt' and that does not come automatically after 8.4 juenes but unless we surrender to guru ki matt. Gurabni tells us, 'satguru kai janmai gavan mittaiya - once satguru ki mat is relished your mission is accomplished and avan javan of pal pal marna ends. So start listening and contemplating to gurbani before the physical death.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## chazSingh (Jun 11, 2012)

japjisahib04 said:


> S. Chaz Singh Ji
> 
> You are really intelligent. No need for me to check with any lady. There are several delivery operation on You tube lasting not more than ten minutes. But I was not referring to delivery but conceiving the baby.
> 
> ...


 
God bless


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Jun 12, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> Also Mohinder Singh Ji,
> 
> Please ask the many women who are giving birth if it is easy, and also if it takes only a couple of minutes


It's called labour for a reason and it took me about 36 hours.  Oh, well...

Do any of you here understand what SGGS ji really is?

Among other things, it's a manual for how to win the Game of Life.


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## chazSingh (Jun 12, 2012)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> It's called labour for a reason and it took me about 36 hours. Oh, well...
> 
> Do any of you here understand what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji really is?
> 
> Among other things, it's a manual for how to win the Game of Life.


 
36 hours? definately not the 10 minutes mohinder ji referred to 

"manual for how to win the game of life" a beautiful way to see SGGS Ji like this.

there used to be a program on t.v called "this is your life", where they handed over a book to a celebrity detailing their whole lives, what they did, experiences, achievements etc.
i like to think of SGGS Ji as a "this is your life" guiding us through our spiritual development to god consciousness 

god bless you


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## kanwaljs (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji helps, directs and illumine us in our spiritual development towards God Conciousness. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has having every answer relating to our good life and all has written in it is true.
Satgur bless you,
Regards,
Kanwaljit Singh


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Jun 12, 2012)

kanwaljs said:


> Yes, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji helps, directs and illumine us in our spiritual development towards God Conciousness. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has having every answer relating to our good life and all has written in it is true.
> Satgur bless you,
> Regards,
> Kanwaljit Singh



Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji not only has all the answers; it has the Answer.

We so much take Guru ji for granted and rarely see it for the priceless treasure it really is.  I wish the Sikh Kaum would just wake up.  We seem to get sidetracked into all sorts of issues.  It is the number one most important anything of Sikhi.  We matha tek and all that, but how often do we sit back and just appreciate?


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## kanwaljs (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes, I agree with you that 'We matha tek and all that, but how often do we sit back and just appreciate?'  Sikhs are very rare who follows that 'Udham karo karao thakur pekhat sadhu sang', that one they have do and die spirit and 'shubh karman tea kabhon naa tarohon'.
With Satguru's blessings,
Regards,
Kanwaljit Singh


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## drpranavsingh (Jun 21, 2012)

Jaspal Singh said:


> Problem is with the loose definition of Sikh.
> 
> Now a days every one call themself to be sikh whether mona, sharbi etc.
> 
> ...



Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities. The smart ones have cut hair, have saved time and self torture and are happy.

The rate at which Punjab Sikh is cutting hair, turbaned Sikhs will become an endangered species in another 2-3 decades. The only place they will be seen will be isolated areas in north america. Sikh leaders have failed to dispel Guru's message and have repulsed the youth by their own egos.

Guru Nanak Dev ji gave up Janeu. Time for sikhs to give up the K's and recognize true religion of Guru Nanak Dev ji.


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## kanwaljs (Jun 22, 2012)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ansi-language:#0400; 	mso-fareast-language:#0400; 	mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">   <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/>  </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->Respected Sir,
The above topic 'A Sikh Without His Flowing Hair and Turban' is not written by me. I had tried to answer through my lekh 'The Importance of Kesh for a sikh', so that I copied and pasted some portion from my lekh to some of other person's topics in the SPN. Actually, I do not know how to use SPN. Sorry, for the inconvenience.


Regards,
Kanwaljit Sing:blueturban:[/FONT]


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## chazSingh (Jun 22, 2012)

drpranavsingh said:


> Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities. The smart ones have cut hair, have saved time and self torture and are happy.
> 
> The rate at which Punjab Sikh is cutting hair, turbaned Sikhs will become an endangered species in another 2-3 decades. The only place they will be seen will be isolated areas in north america. Sikh leaders have failed to dispel Guru's message and have repulsed the youth by their own egos.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev ji gave up Janeu. Time for sikhs to give up the K's and recognize true religion of Guru Nanak Dev ji.


 

Satnaam Ji,

This may seem like an unrelated question, but i promise you it has a meaning. and i'll explain in the end 

Do you wake up during Amrit vela (ambroisial hours) and do 2.5 hours of simran before your daily duties, every day of the week without fail?


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## Luckysingh (Jun 22, 2012)

After 3-5 days of waking up and sleeping at regular times then the person automatically gets up at amrit vela as the body clock knows it is to wake !
Sleep a few hours after and you experience long, joyful and energetic days!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 22, 2012)

drpranavsingh said:


> Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities. The smart ones have cut hair, have saved time and self torture and are happy.
> 
> *The rate at which Punjab Sikh is cutting hair, turbaned Sikhs will become an endangered species in another 2-3 decades. The only place they will be seen will be isolated areas in north america. Sikh leaders have failed to dispel Guru's message and have repulsed the youth by their own egos.
> *
> Guru Nanak Dev ji gave up Janeu. Time for sikhs to give up the K's and recognize true religion of Guru Nanak Dev ji.



Get a hold of The Sikh history written by Khushwnat Singh....He was even more DEFINITE that that statement in RED..He wrote.. *Within the Next 50 Years there will be NO SIKHS by 2000 !!*  Quote from a Blog below explains in detail....

When in 1953 the celebrated Sikh historian, Khushwant Singh, came to writing his seminal, and now classic,  _The Sikhs_*,*  he lamented ruefully in the Preface that, “[t]he chief reason for my  writing an account of my people is the melancholy thought that  contemporary with my labours are being written the last chapters of the  story of the Sikhs.  By the end of the century, the Sikhs themselves  will have passed into oblivion.  Before that happens, it is proper that  some estimate of their religion, traditions, political and cultural  achievements should be made…..”.  Yet, today, there are 20 million Sikhs  world-wide with twelve million in India alone – though the distinctive  history of the Sikhs, their religion, and their traditions, are not much  better known in the world today than they were then. However, although  they comprise two per cent of their country’s population, they are  hardly unnoticeable.  The Prime Minister of India, the world’s largest  democracy, is a Sikh of immense distinction accredited with being the  architect of modern India today. The Chief of Army Staff of the Indian  Army, was until recently a Sikh by the name of General Joginder Jaswant  Singh Marwaha, who was a consistent high-achiever.  And, Bollywood  recently brought out a film, “_Singh is Kinng_” which not only  opened to full houses in India, but remarkably shattered records in  Pakistan too.  Further afield few adherents of English cricket could  have failed to notice Monty Panesar<sup> </sup>assume  a cult status in the UK.  Sikhs proliferate in all walks of life,  including the professions.  In the words of Patwant Singh, a Delhi-based  writer of some considerable renown, Sikhs today, “have come to be known  for their commitment to education, their business acumen, and their  enterprising spirit..”  Indeed, for a religion that is only 500-years  old, Sikhism is now the fourth largest religion in the world.  It is all  the more remarkable then, that the Sikh faith is little known and  little understood by most people outside India.  Indeed, on 27<sup>th</sup> November 2008 the European Court of Human Rights dismissed a legal challenge by one _Shingara Singh_,  a 53-year old Parisian Sikh, to the French law requiring ID documents  photos of motorists to appear “bareheaded and facing forward” when he  argued that French law thereby imposed a ban on the wearing of turbans  by Sikhs.  Evidently, what Sikhism may have to generally contribute to  the world today is hardly a matter of any concern anywhere. Indeed,  half-a-century ago, Khushwant Singh’s laments about the Sikhs were not  unfounded.  The Sikh faith had indeed been struggling for survival.   Decades of persecution in the seventeenth century followed by a half  century of glorious sovereign rule under Maharajah Ranjit Singh was  followed by annexation, partition, exodus and balkanisation of their  territory in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth centuries<sup> </sup>so  that “Sikhism became virtually submerged in Hinduism.”  Yet, Sikhism  managed not only to survive.  It even flourished.  Today, as a faith it  is respected the world over for its principles of pragmatism,  rationalism, and service to humanity. It should be a matter of general  interest to Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike, therefore, as to why the Sikh  religion has flourished as much as it has in the last 50-years since  Khushwant Singh wrote his melancholy book about the Sikhs in the  immediate years after Indian independence.
 ...Lets see who has the LAST LAUGH Dr Sahib !! The HUGE TREE that Guru nanak ji planted has so much BLOOD in its ROOTS that SIKHI will OUTLAST even the coming 2102 Apocalypse...Everything on Earth may be destroyed..BUT a SIKH will be standing to WELCOME the Alien Spaceships !! Tongue in cheek..really !!! EMPERORS that RULED over Vast Empires..those that ruled the WORLD where the Sun Never set..Worlds largest democracy..etc etc have cherished deep seated INNER DESIRE to see the LAST SIKH Disappear before their EYES..alas this wish never came true..not for Jehangir, aurengzeb, Queens Victoria..Indira Gandhi...and it WONT EVER happen...some "trees" just NEVER DIE/DRY UP..:interestedsingh::interestedsingh::interestedsingh::interestedsingh::interestedsingh:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 23, 2012)

And where did this..SAVE TIME???  idea and the statement saying... of ALL Turbanned Sikhs having inner secret desires to cut their hair and "Save time"  emerge from ?? Ha Ha ha..save time ?? Vast Majority of those are the ones who get up at 2am and do several HOURS of Naam japp...imho its *ALL* the Ghona_Mona (LISA) types who harbor secret inherent *INFERIORITY COMPLEXES* because they cant face the world as PROUD SAVA LAKH KHALSA types who fought iN Anandpur, Muktsar, Saragarrhii, WW I and WW II etc...and live lives hiding among the MAJORITY around them...
anyway..SAVING TIME ?? for what ?? bhangra parties in Pubs ?? hanging around girls college gates..hang out with drug taking buddies, sherab khannas, desi sherab stores? Those *SAVING Time types* are mostly Ghona_Mona Lisas...that I agree with 110%. Most Dastar wearing khalsa AVOID  such :time saving" places..at least the ones i know do...they rather spend time at the Gurdawra doing paath/sewa/or nitnem....


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jun 23, 2012)

drpranavsingh,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion abut kakkars, but please speak only for yourself.  IMNSHO, you are way out of line making generalisations about keshdhari Sikhs.  In the first place, grooming doesn't really take much time, as you would know if you had ever kept kesh.  And, I always enjoy combing my own and my son's.  My husband, when he was alive, was very proud, even vain about his beautiful hair.  In fact, he was so proud of it, he chose to die rather than cut it.  I find it very offensive that you would dare to insult him and others like him who love their kesh and find keeping it meaningful.  

What you believe for yourself is your business.  Just please don't extrapolate your opinions to the rest of us.  Some of us actually enjoy being kakkardhari (is there such a word?) Sikhs.  To me it is part of the experience of being a Sikh.  It is deeply meaningful to me.

And, at the risk of offending some, there is no other man as attractive and strongly masculine as a Khalsa Singh, one worthy of being called Sardarji.  A strong man, confident of who and what he is, is an asset not only to the Panth, but also an asset to the world.  Part of the purpose of being a visible Sikh is to build strength and courage.  Ditch the 5Ks? I think not!  You can, but me, never!  Being a Khalsa makes me what I am and I like that.

In short, please speak for yourself only.  Do not pretend to speak for the rest of us.  OK?  

 japposatnamwaheguru: japposatnamwaheguru: japposatnamwaheguru: 

:grinningkaur:


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 23, 2012)

I know when I used to live in Punjab there were very few sikhs who dare to shave their beard and hair. They were full of sikhi. I missed those golden days.   Whosoever were shaving used to be called Pattit. And I know it used to take months to come out from this shame. But now as the figures are coming up around 80% who have forsaken their sikhi swroop, this terms seems derogatory to them. As such they have now started predicting end of sikhi swroop, our guru gifted us even with price of their children. 

Shame on you

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 23, 2012)

During the Famous Aklai MORCHAS of the 1920-19235's which brought the Britihs Govt to its KNEES and racist bigots like the Mahatma Gandhi also forced to acknowledge and send telegram to Baba Kharrak Singh ref: First Battle of Indian Independence WON " _ The Sikhs DIDNT know "politics"..thats why when India won Independence..another such Gandhi chela Nehru wrote to Master Tara Singh.."Times have CHANGED"...(meaning you are now slaves of US rather than the British ). Anyway there was this ONE MORCHA Called KIRPAN MORCHA..whereby the British govt tried to LIMIT the size of the Kirpan...and FAILED against the onslaught of the Sikh kaum...and the British Govt was wise enough and instead of saying.."Times have changed"..they Conferred the Award of *KIRPAN BAHADUR* of the Morcha Dictator who won this battle of Sikh and INDIAN INDEPENCE.  

http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/the-british-and-sikhs-1849-1947/kirpan-morcha


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## justosh (Jun 24, 2012)

drpranavsingh said:


> Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities. The smart ones have cut hair, have saved time and self torture and are happy.
> 
> The rate at which Punjab Sikh is cutting hair, turbaned Sikhs will become an endangered species in another 2-3 decades. The only place they will be seen will be isolated areas in north america. Sikh leaders have failed to dispel Guru's message and have repulsed the youth by their own egos.
> 
> *Guru Nanak Dev ji gave up Janeu. Time for sikhs to give up the K's and recognize true religion of Guru Nanak Dev ji*.



im sorry but what did you mean by the text in red.... as in literal or sarcasm?


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## chazSingh (Jun 25, 2012)

drpranavsingh said:


> Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair
> I do not cut my hair and i wear a turban, yes in the past i have had thoughts about my hair, possibly cutting it...for a sikh this is to battle of the 5 thieves, the mind makes a million excuses to 'be like everyone else' 'life will be easier' 'i wont get looked at by others' etc etc. when a sikh becomes a Pure Khalsa, then his/her outer dress lights him/her up like a lighthouse so he stands out in the crowd and he/she helps ferry the population across the terrifying world ocean.
> 
> save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities. The smart ones have cut hair, have saved time and self torture and are happy.
> ...


 
God bless all.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

drpranavsingh said:


> Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities. The smart ones have cut hair, have saved time and self torture and are happy.
> 
> The rate at which Punjab Sikh is cutting hair, turbaned Sikhs will become an endangered species in another 2-3 decades. The only place they will be seen will be isolated areas in north america. Sikh leaders have failed to dispel Guru's message and have repulsed the youth by their own egos.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev ji gave up Janeu. Time for sikhs to give up the K's and recognize true religion of Guru Nanak Dev ji.




OK lets say for 1 second your comment is right:

This would mean:

1) We ignore all Bani in the Guru Granth Sahib ji written by other Guru's because we ONLY listen to that Bani of Nanak

2) We ignore the fact that Nanak passed on the GUruship to Guru Angad.

3) We ignore the fact there appears to be no change in message between the 1st Nanak to the 10th.


shall I go on?


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## buddhushah (Apr 19, 2013)

triloruf@yahoo.com said:


> Its Disgusting To Hear. This Is A Big Discouragement To We Foreigner Who Embraced Sikhism. The Problem Of The Sikhs Are With The Sikhs Themselves
> Here In Lagos Nigeria. Odenary Common Announcement One Hear The Sikhs Announcing It In Punjabi Language. There Is No Respect For Human Dignity As If God And The Masters Will Send A Curse If Simple English Is Spoken.
> 
> I Embraced Sikhism Twenty(20) Years Ago Out Of Simple Convictions, And I Keep My Hier And Turban.



a sikh was born to look ,live and die DIFFERENT.so no excuse is acceptable,what so ever.[KHALSA AKAL PURAKH KI FAUJ,soldiers alwaysare different from common.]lets be happy that chaff is getting separated from grain.sikhism is not everybodys cup of tea.[KHANEO TIKHI WALLO NIKKI ET MARAG JANA,3rd master/anand sahib]let us not dilute the standards set by the masters .my congratulations to triloruf ji,may the almighty bless us all to be worthy of his fauj.


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## drpranavsingh (Apr 19, 2013)

Randip Singh said:


> OK lets say for 1 second your comment is right:
> 
> This would mean:
> 
> ...


 You can go on till you start making any sense. Read everything again and tell me how in present context, Turban is different from Janeu?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Apr 19, 2013)

> Turban is different from Janeu?



Turban is not for high castes but all humans!
Turban is not a privilege but a promise to Guru!


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 20, 2013)

drpranavsingh said:


> You can go on till you start making any sense. Read everything again and tell me how in present context, *Turban is different from Janeu?*



drpranavsingh ji,

Guru Fateh,

Before we delve further into this interesting conversation, allow me to ask you the question.

Do you wear this 'Janeu' yourself or not?

If yes, why and if no, why not?

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 20, 2013)

Guru Nanak ji..just didnt enter a "jnaeu shop" and leave without it ( as "modern" sikhs do in barber shops)..GURU NANAK JI SAHIB has given many proper and valid reasons WHY the Janeau is not required. These reasons DONT apply even remotely to the 5 K/s.
None of the GURUS wore a janeau..BUT they ALL wore Kesh and dastaars.
GURU NANAK -GURU GOBIND SINGH -GURU GRANTH SAHIB Ji is ONE JYOT, ONE CENTRAL PHILOSOPHY ONE THEME
So many solid reasons and people just compare a simple janeau to ALL THAT ?? its like comparing a "string" to the ANCHOR CHAIN or Massive Rope used to tie ships to docks....is not a child walking.. he is a marathon SIKH...same way the 5Ks are not a child learning to take his first steps...:japosatnamwaheguru:


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## aristotle (Apr 20, 2013)

> drpranavsingh Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities.


Brother,
I would rather think it is you who is insecure because you are doing exactly the same thing, writing a long post without a single fact and beating around the bush. Isn't that so...?


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## Brother Onam (Apr 20, 2013)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> Are you looking for some script within Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
> 
> ...


 
I agree. The Guru Granth Sahib also has very little to say about sexting and internet porn. But we know the 10 Nanaks were among the most admirable men in human history; we ought to_ want_ to obey and emulate them fully, even without the Guru specifically mandating unshorn hair.


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## kanwaljs (Apr 26, 2013)

Quote:
    			 				drpranavsingh Very good thought indeed. I want to say except those  blinded by faith, and those compelled by their profession, almost all  turbaned Sikhs have an inner secret desire to cut hair and save time  from hours of grooming every day. Most of them are in denial and write  long posts on these forums trying to hide insecurities.

I feel very painful to read the above quote.
*NOT A SINGLE GURMUKH* TURBANED PERSON HAVE  AN INNER SECRET DESIRE TO CUT HAIR AND SAVE TIME FROM HOURS OF GROOING EVERYDAY. BUT MANMUKH PERSONS HAVING THOUGHTS LIKE THE ABOVE QUOTE.
GURBANI SAYS 'Sakat har ras saad na janiya, tin antar haumey kanda hai,
                      Jyon Jyon chale chubhey dukh pavey jam kaal sahe sir danda hai.'

If a sikh feels it is a Crown (pagri) then it is not a burden. If anybody feels that in a particular sewa (service) he will get may benefits then he will not feel any burden for that sewa. God has created nature and many natural things are beneficial to human beings. Today science has also agreed to this fact and stressing to upkeep the natural things as much as we can. When we becomes adult, one has to make the arrangements for our hairs, then we should do the best as our Gurus guided us for the benefit of entire mankind, and to please our Guru and to make happy ourselves.
If we travel by air, in flight in_flammables are not allowed. We happily accept that fact, then why we can not accept our Guru's advise.

 Sikh religion is not based on any blind faith.  Guru Nanak ji's bani says many things about the upkeep of Kesh.


Our great Guru directly connects us to the God Almighty and God is in His nature, as even 1<sup>st</sup> GURU NANAK’s baani says

 ‘balihari kudrat vasiya, tera ant na jayi lakhiya’ 	        -Guru Nanak, Ang 463 SGGS	


 Japji Sahib’s 1<sup>st</sup> pauri says ‘Hukam rajai chalana Nanak likhiya naal’ ,as we have to follow His DIVINE WILL  and respect the NATURE.          -Guru Nanak, Ang 01 SGGS


HAIRS ON THE HUMAN BODY IS BY NATURE, AND GOING AGAINST THIS NATURE *C**OULD* *ATTRACT HIS DISPLEAURE*  FOR A SIKH.
 The God in his Will and wisdom has created the complete human being. To interfere with the God given body by circumcision, puffing a hole in the ear or nose and cutting or dyeing the hair are prohibited and treated as disobedience to God’s Will. A God fearing person can never prefer his will and wish to prevail over the God’s Will and can never make any alterations in the God gifted boon, which could attract His displeasure.  


 Guru Nanak Sahib gives the highest place to ‘Nimarta’ (‘hirdey di garibi’) and saying that  
 ‘Naam beej santokh suhaga rakh garibi veas’                       -Guru Nanak, Ang 565 SGGS

 When a person becomes very humble (having ‘Nimarta’) he becomes prideless and he obeys God’s divine order or His will very happily.
 ‘Kudrat kare jhano, jot is bhave nanaka hukam soi parvano   -Guru Nanak, Ang 25 SGGS

 ‘Nanak hukme je bujhe ta huame kahe na koe’     -Guru Nanak(Japji Sahib), Ang 1 SGGS


 According to the principles of  Guru Nanak in Sri Guru Granth Sahib it is also written like that  
 ‘Sabat surat dastaar sira’                                                 -5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 1084 SGGS


 ‘Kar kirpa Apna daras dije jas gavao nis ar bhor,
 Kes sang das pag jharao ehoo manorath mor’                  -5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 500 SGGS  


 One who loves God, who equally loves His creatures. Guru sahib praises the symbols of ‘sargun sarup’ of  Akalpurakh (God) in human being, then  says like that


 ‘Tere banke loen dant risaala, sohne nak jin lamde wala’     -Guru Nanak, Ang 567 SGGS


In whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji (SGGS) on almost every Ang (page) there is written about  


‘Kudrat’ 	(Nature)
 	‘Bhana’ (will of GOD)
‘Hukam’ 	(divine order)
‘Nimarta’ 	(humble and politeness) or prideless
 All of the above qualities very clearly implies that every sikh must be keshadhari.  
 All the sikh gurus respected the nature and were ‘keshadhari’ and so were their Sikhs. GURU GOBIND SINGHJI  MADE THE ‘REHAT’ FROM GURU NANAK’S PRINCIPLES. 

The 'bea-adabi of  ‘keshas' is the 'ghor apmaan of our great gurus'. The punishment of such type of deed is written in gurbani as


 'sant kea dukhan trigad jon kirmaye'    (Sukhmani Sahib)-5<sup>th</sup> Guru Nanak, Ang 279 SGGS 

Sikh who cuts his hairs is  called ‘patit sikh’. The 'patit sikh' even CAN NOT get birth as human being, but will get birth in the bad and lowest 'yonis'.

Many things does not change, God (nature) has grown hairs on the human body and still human babies beings born with hairs on their body and when they grown up, more hairs are grown on their body as beard and moustache. Our sikh gurus tried to directly connect us to the God and His nature.
                         ‘Pooja Akal ki’                                                              -Guru Gobind Singh
   ‘Khalsa Akal Purukh ki fauj’				   -Guru Gobind Singh
  ‘balihari kudrat vasiya,
   	tera ant na jayi lakhiya’   		        -Guru Nanak, Ang 463 SGGS
		‘duyi kudrat saajiea kar aasan ditho chaoo’   -Guru Nanak, Ang 463 SGGS
 		‘sachchi teri kudrat sachhea paatshah’           -Guru Nanak, Ang 463 SGGS

 So, it is fundamental rule for Sikhs not to cut their hairs.
 Today’s science is also saying that hairs are beneficial to human.


 We (Sikhs) all are the sons and daughters of Great Guru Gobind Singh ji, we should accept the sikh traditions with courage and happiness as the children of lion and not to cut our hairs.
Kanwaljit Singh


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## Harry Haller (Apr 27, 2013)

> HAIRS ON THE HUMAN BODY IS BY NATURE, AND GOING AGAINST THIS NATURE *C**OULD* *ATTRACT HIS DISPLEAURE*  FOR A SIKH.


Oh really? what does 'he' do when 'he' finds out? cessation of chocolate rations? 40 days of darkness? cats and dogs living together? 



> The God in his Will and wisdom has created the complete human being. To  interfere with the God given body by circumcision, puffing a hole in the  ear or nose and cutting or dyeing the hair are prohibited and treated  as disobedience to God’s Will. A God fearing person can never prefer his  will and wish to prevail over the God’s Will and can never make any  alterations in the God gifted boon, which could attract His displeasure.


Excellent, so we follow the teachings of Guru Nanak, and attempt to emulate his look, not to further ourselves, or to attempt to carry on the good works of the Gurus, or to have found enlightenment or knowledge, but because we are scared. Is it perhaps an Islamic or Christian forum you were looking for? 



> In whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) on almost every Ang (page) there is written about
> 
> 
> ‘Kudrat’     (Nature)
> ...


yup seems clear to me, all roads end in hair, right?



> All the sikh gurus respected the nature and were ‘keshadhari’ and so  were their Sikhs. GURU GOBIND SINGHJI  MADE THE ‘REHAT’ FROM GURU  NANAK’S PRINCIPLES.
> 
> The 'bea-adabi of  ‘keshas' is the 'ghor apmaan of our great gurus'. The  punishment of such type of deed is written in gurbani as
> 
> ...


Ok, so let me get this right, if I keep my hair, I will be ok, but if I cut it, then when I get reborn, it will be the baddest and lowest 'yonis', phew, I better keep my hair then, thats me sold. 



> So, it is fundamental rule for Sikhs not to cut their hairs.


absolutely! let us all go whoring, drugging and drinking to our hearts content, let us abort female girls, let us make the lives of our daughters in laws a misery, let us have lavish and pointless weddings, let every Gurudwara in the land be a focus point for German engineered cars at their best, but do not cut your hair!

:kaurkhalsaflagblue:


To clarify, I pity anyone who keeps their hair out of fear, this is not the essence and spirit of Sikhism that I understand, to keep hair is a wonderful thing, and I respect anyone who attempts to heighten their connection with uncut hair, When I read my Veerji Lucky's posts about his hair, and his absolute pleasure and joy in watching it grow, I feel a sense of pride, a sense of expectation, it is heart warming. 

To meet someone with a full head of hair because of the fear of being reborn as a frog, does not incite the same feelings within me................


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## spnadmin (Apr 27, 2013)

harry haller ji

It is so harsh when creator, nature, bana, hukam and nimrata are thought to be punishments. They instead might be awesome gifts freely chosen.

Hair often becomes the great moral cover-up, doesn't it. Pardon the bad pun. The great cover-up for avoidance, an excuse, for not taking stock of our deeds.

Of good reasons to keep hair, the quoted post hardly gives those reasons, for all the reasons you mention. On someone's list there always has to be at least one bogey-man to keep us on the straight and narrow road. Usually it is 'god' in combination with the 4 tonics, bottled ahead of time for easy consumption, of nature, god's command, hukam, and nimrata  Which of course leads to the rest of what you say. Let's be good because 'god' will get even. Is that scary or is it just lazy?

I am always perplexed why so few mention we might keep hair to align with our inner nature and our inner quest for nature, bana, hukam and nimrata. Much less scary too!


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## buddhushah (Apr 27, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Oh really? what does 'he' do when 'he' finds out? cessation of chocolate rations? 40 days of darkness? cats and dogs living together?
> 
> Excellent, so we follow the teachings of Guru Nanak, and attempt to emulate his look, not to further ourselves, or to attempt to carry on the good works of the Gurus, or to have found enlightenment or knowledge, but because we are scared. Is it perhaps an Islamic or Christian forum you were looking for?
> 
> ...



rightly said harry,sikhism was never pillored by mercenary thoughts or barter trade.if it is a path or a way, all paths/roads/routes either on land ,high seas ,or open air and even space ,they have some rules to follow;if we take it as a fauj, then every fauj carries a distinct identity of it self.we should love it to live itand hope fully die it.


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## Serjinder Singh (Apr 27, 2013)

As an amritdhari Sikh I wouldn't bother about what others do or don't do to their 'Kes'. i would judge them if I am forced to by their love for the 'one' God who is present in every body. Thus,

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ 
॥ ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ SGGS page 1365

Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## itsmaneet (Apr 27, 2013)

I wonder how such topics are discussed so long ..... _about KES, our GuruJi ordered not to disrespect hair ... isn't tht enough for a SIKH ??_ 

There are many who'll very foolishly argue on this but SIKH is a SIKH only if he respects Guru's orders...


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## spnadmin (Apr 27, 2013)

itsmaneet said:


> I wonder how such topics are discussed so long ..... _about KES, our GuruJi ordered not to disrespect hair ... isn't tht enough for a SIKH ??_
> 
> There are many who'll very foolishly argue on this but SIKH is a SIKH only if he respects Guru's orders...



itsmaneetj i

Personally I stay away from threads about kes for a reason. Over time the discussion goes in circles with the same thoughts coming forward again and again. This time I break my rule.

How can anyone sit on the throne of judgement and decide who is a Sikh and who is not a Sikh based on "respect for Guru's orders." There are too many self-appointed panchayats of the Internet deciding on the question of who is a Sikh. The question of kes in particular misses the point our Gurus were making. In their time, kes was permitted only to the rich and powerful. When the Gurus taught (not ordered) there is no high and there is no low, rejoice in your beautiful hair, they were teaching (not ordering) that kes declares the equality of all humankind. When Guru Gobind Singh taught equality of all within the khalsa, he also taught (not ordered) that Sikhi is about brotherhood and sisterhood. Sikhi is about "choosing" with eyes wide open. Sikhi is not about following orders, eyes tightly shut, with some Sikhs deciding who is allowed into the "club" of "true Sikhs" and who is a shame to the rest. 

The reason btw the thread goes on so long is that people often come to the forum for the first time years after a thread has been started.They want to be part of the discussion. It is brand new for them, if not for others. 

Guru Gobind Singh's words in Khalsa Mehima are the words of a brother - so beautiful - they embrace and do not judge. 

Khaalsaa mero roop hai khaas |
Khalsa is my image of my own nobility.


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## itsmaneet (Apr 27, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> When the Gurus taught (not ordered) there is no high and there is no low, rejoice in your beautiful hair, they were teaching (not ordering) that kes declares the equality of all humankind. When Guru Gobind Singh taught equality of all within the khalsa, he also taught (not ordered) that Sikhi is about brotherhood and sisterhood


 
_There are many SIKHS who will consider Guru's teachings as ORDERS. Bhai Lehna Ji wud never have become Guru Angad Dev Ji had he questioned Guru Nanak Ji on being asked to eat a dead body. A Guru's Sikh wud always take Guru's Teachings as 'Hukums' .... thts wht I feel others may differ on this._

_Gurfateh !!_


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## spnadmin (Apr 27, 2013)

itsmaneet said:


> _There are many SIKHS who will consider Guru's teachings as ORDERS. Bhai Lehna Ji wud never have become Guru Angad Dev Ji had he questioned Guru Nanak Ji on being asked to eat a dead body. A Guru's Sikh wud always take Guru's Teachings as 'Hukums' .... thts wht I feel others may differ on this._
> 
> _Gurfateh !!_



itsmaneet ji

Yes there are others who would differ. Especially those who doubt the authenticity of many stories counting in the janamsakhi of Guru Nanak, especially the one about ordering Lehna ji to eat a corpse. Why would the same Guru who descried in Gurbani the habit of Jains to inspect their own bowel movements turn around and ask a loyal chella to eat a corpse? 

That is the common sense argument against what you are saying. A careful study of janamsakhis belongs to a different thread. 

There also seems to be some misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "hukam."  Sikhi is not a video game, as in follow my orders or  :realangrymunda: Hukam has more than one meaning.


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## spnadmin (Apr 27, 2013)

Apologies ... More thoughts on the matter of ordering Bhai Lehna/Guru Angaad ji to eat a corpse.

1. How many who claim that Sikhs are vegetarians also believe that Guru Angaad followed orders and ate a corpse? 

2. The sakhi makes an Aghori yogi of Guru Angaad ji. The Aghori are known for many rituals including cannibalism, feeding on corpses. Why would all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teach against the egotism of outlandish yogic rituals, only to have Guru Nanak give an order that Guru Angaad or anyone else eat a corpse? 

Janamsakhi need to be read with caution. If the life sketch of Guru Nanak is not consistent with Gurbani it should be questioned.

p/s Attached are some interesting observations from KS Kanga in his analysis of the literary janamsakhis by Sujan Singh.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 28, 2013)

itsmaneet said:


> _There are many SIKHS who will consider Guru's teachings as ORDERS. Bhai Lehna Ji wud never have become Guru Angad Dev Ji had he questioned Guru Nanak Ji on being asked to eat a dead body. A Guru's Sikh wud always take Guru's Teachings as 'Hukums' .... thts wht I feel others may differ on this._
> 
> _Gurfateh !!_



This account by J Grover sheds some more light, I did not realise that choosing the next Guru was so much like Pop Idol...., I had a fancy that two men of the highest learning connected through spiritual discourse, it is interesting to note which of the above views is considered heresy, and which one completely normal. 

_Lahna Ji Meets Guru Nanak

As he slept that night, he had a strange dream. He saw that Vaishno Devi  was sweeping the floor of Guru Nanak. When he asked Devi the reason for  doing so She replied, "The source of all my powers is Guru Nanak. All  that I distribute among my followers is a prize of sweeping His floors."  The dream had an imposing effect. Lahna Ji thought that if Nanak is the  ultimate giver, and even the Devis bow to Him, He should be his real  Guru. So he urged his group to continue their journey without him. The  group made him repeated requests to accompany them, but Lahna Ji had  made up his mind to spend the rest of his life serving Guru Nanak.

Lahna Ji's Tests of Patience and Devotion
Lahna Ji started spending all of his time in serving Guru Nanak or  reciting His hymns. He was completely dedicated to divine service. Guru  Nanak was to reward him for all this but not without a series of twelve  tests.

In the first test Nanak ordered several of His Sikhs, including Lahna  Ji, to fetch fresh grass for the cattle during a heavy downpour. While  all others cut corners Lahna Ji abided by Guru Nanak's words, and  brought back a bundle of green grass on his head with water oozing out  to spoil his clothes. Guru Nanak laughed, but out of joy of Lahna Ji  passing his first test. On another rainy day Guru Nanak went for a bath  in the river, accompanied by five of His sikhs Baba Buddha, Bhagirath,  Saadaaran, Ajita and Lahna Ji. While Guru Nanak took a dip in the river,  He asked His men to stay on the banks. A chilling breeze of air and  rain storm made everyone but Lahna Ji leave the place. Lahna Ji had  successfully completed the second one. 

The third one was very bizarre. As Guru Nanak was crossing a forest with  His Sikhs and His own sons they came across a dead body. Guru Nanak  ordered all of them to eat the body. Everyone was apprehensive and none  had the courage to come forward and taste blood. Lahna Ji had tremendous  faith in Guru Nanak, and without a hitch he proceeded to lift the cloth  of sheet over the body. To everybody's bewilderment there was 'Karah  Parshad' (holy food) underneath. Lahna Ji enjoyed the meal and all  others were left ashamed.

One night while it was raining cats and dogs a wall fell. Guru Nanak  ordered His Sikhs to wake up and reconstruct the wall. Some did not  bother to even leave their bed as they believed that it was impossible  to construct the wall in such severe rain; but as soon as Guru Nanak  directed Lahna Ji to do the task he started off in a flash and spent  rest of the night in erecting the wall. 
Sangat (religious gathering) had conglomerated and Guru Nanak  intentionally did not have 'Karah Parshad' to be distributed among them.  He asked his own sons to shake an acacia tree and remove 'Parshad' from  it, but they found it absurd and refused to proceed. It was again  Lahna, the one with absolute faith in Guru Nanak's utterances, who shook  the acacia, and 'Parshad' did fall to leave everyone astonished.

Guru Nanak once called on every one in the middle of the night and asked  them to wash clothes on the river bank. Sri Chand and Lakhmi Das, Guru  Nanak's own sons, found it below their dignity to wash the clothes  themselves. While most of the other Sikhs made excuse of the dead of the  night, Lahna Ji unphased by any outside uncomfortable conditions, went  to the river and came back with washed clothes.

Guru Nanak once took the form of a gigantic monster with deep red eyes, a  huge knife tied to His waist, and started behaving in a strange scary  manner. He set off for the forests, the Sikhs followed Him to some  distance but everybody gave up, feeling too scared. But Lahna matched  Guru Nanak step to step. He tried all sorts of tricks to scare Lahna Ji  but could not shake his faith. _

http://www.1888articles.com/lahna-ji-guru-angad-dev-ji-meets-guru-nanak-093011.html


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## spnadmin (Apr 28, 2013)

harry ji

*Is the article a joke? Is the author a comedian?*

Three things that are really disconcerting.

1. The Grover sakhi is openly accessible on the Internet. No questions asked and little likelihood that a critical evaluation of the article or the web site will be undertaken by the reader passing through.

2. It is laden with the thrill of the supernatural. Who would not prefer that to a modest account of a Guru who like to spend his day tending his field and his cattle?

3. The article sells books for a prominent publisher listed at the bottom of the page. It says "The author [that is Grover] has started building the Largest Online Bookstore with followed by the url. The PROFIT motive is involved, money not learning.

1888articles is the domain name for the article. We have no way of knowing whether there is any screening at all of the quality of the site content. 

I am hesitant to check out the other publications of the author because my blood pressure is normally low and I like it that way.

The lesson learned? There are many who reject all the Janamsakhis and one can see why.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 29, 2013)

itsmaneet said:


> _There are many SIKHS who will consider Guru's teachings as ORDERS. Bhai Lehna Ji wud never have become Guru Angad Dev Ji had he questioned Guru Nanak Ji on being asked to eat a dead body. A Guru's Sikh wud always take Guru's Teachings as 'Hukums' .... thts wht I feel others may differ on this._
> 
> _Gurfateh !!_




The very mention of the word 'order' brings to mind possible consequences if the 'order' is not carried out, in this case, it may well have denied the second Master from being Bhai Lehna ji. You have posted this story on a thread about keeping hair, thus, I would conclude that keeping hair is therefore an order, similar to eating a Corpse. 

The Sikhism that I understand actively discourages blind faith, and encourages understanding and enlightenment. If I may quote a story to support, as I know you like stories, when Guru Nanak refused to wear the Hindu thread, he must have realised he was setting a precedent in the very way of life he was advocating, ie, from that day on, how could he ever possibly encourage people to blindly follow without thinking first, and secondly, not to follow an order for the sake of following an order. 

If this story is true, I can see another gem of wisdom that is more relevant than blindly doing what your told, just to get a gold star, and that would be that firstly, not everything appears to be what it is, the things that may seem repulsive, may in fact be gems of wisdom, or even food, but more importantly, the things that seem attractive, that draw you in, the offer you the promise of 'a good time', more often than not, are the corpse, the decaying rotting corpse, that offers a short term pleasure, but where the consequences of such, are huge, and permanent.


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## buddhushah (Apr 30, 2013)

harry haller said:


> The very mention of the word 'order' brings to mind possible consequences if the 'order' is not carried out, in this case, it may well have denied the second Master from being Bhai Lehna ji. You have posted this story on a thread about keeping hair, thus, I would conclude that keeping hair is therefore an order, similar to eating a Corpse.
> 
> The Sikhism that I understand actively discourages blind faith, and encourages understanding and enlightenment. If I may quote a story to support, as I know you like stories, when Guru Nanak refused to wear the Hindu thread, he must have realised he was setting a precedent in the very way of life he was advocating, ie, from that day on, how could he ever possibly encourage people to blindly follow without thinking first, and secondly, not to follow an order for the sake of following an order.
> 
> If this story is true, I can see another gem of wisdom that is more relevant than blindly doing what your told, just to get a gold star, and that would be that firstly, not everything appears to be what it is, the things that may seem repulsive, may in fact be gems of wisdom, or even food, but more importantly, the things that seem attractive, that draw you in, the offer you the promise of 'a good time', more often than not, are the corpse, the decaying rotting corpse, that offers a short term pleasure, but where the consequences of such, are huge, and permanent.


this topic  and conversation, only shows our shallow minds and shallower faith.the master is the head of this flock,and he has all the right to its identity.we may like it or not ,he has niether made any concessions for jioning it ,nor showed us the demons for other wise.yes ,one thing he made it clear[-sir thar tali, gali mori aao].rest of the stories are marketed by highly enlightened of our brethern,who wanted to market their own enter prises.let us all stand up to do the job that the master wants us to do rather than wasting our energies in measuring the ocean with glass in hand.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 30, 2013)

.





> let us all stand up to do the job that the master wants us to do



To your mind, what is that job?


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## buddhushah (May 1, 2013)

harry haller said:


> .
> 
> To your mind, what is that job?


with due respects to all=
[hath pav te kam kar chit niranjan naal];[kar har karam  sarvan har katha  har dargah nanak ujwal matha];[jat pahara dheeraj suniaar, ahran mat ved hathiyaar ,bhau khala agan tap tau,  bhanda bhau amrit *** dhaal, ghariye shabad sachi taksaal, jin kau nadar karam tin kaar, nanak nadri nadar nihaal] simply saying/as per my mind -read,try to under stand,analyse , try to put into practise-[hukam rajayee chalna nanak likhya naal][karam karat hove nih karam tis baishno ka nirmal dharam]and i am still in the process of taking tiny baby steps.


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## japjisahib04 (May 10, 2013)

buddhushah said:


> with due respects to all=
> [hath pav te kam kar chit niranjan naal];[kar har karam  sarvan har katha  har dargah nanak ujwal matha];[jat pahara dheeraj suniaar, ahran mat ved hathiyaar ,bhau khala agan tap tau,  bhanda bhau amrit *** dhaal, ghariye shabad sachi taksaal, jin kau nadar karam tin kaar, nanak nadri nadar nihaal] simply saying/as per my mind -read,try to under stand,analyse , try to put into practise-[hukam rajayee chalna nanak likhya naal][karam karat hove nih karam tis baishno ka nirmal dharam]and i am still in the process of taking tiny baby steps.



During my last interaction with a so called learned doctor, the discussion ended with the sabd, 'bhavey lambay kesh kar bhavey ghardh mundhai - sikhi is all from within thus either keep long hair or shave them off, it does not matter and I noticed most of the time he uses this sabd and feels relax. I started wondering when sikhi is all about surrendering to hukam and Hairs are part of that Hukam, then why would gurbani suggest us to either discard them or keep, it does not matter. Thus I started contemplating on this sabd and the one earlier sabd and was wondering about the context of the sabd.

First thing, I noticed the word, 'bhavey' does it contain a 'bindi' that we are interpreting it as 'either' or does it mean 'to appreciate - bhavey' or whosoever likes to merge in divine wisdom. Similarly we need to see what does bhagat kabeer means by 'kesh' through his other sabds. Like when he says, 'manh mundia nahi kesh mundhai kaheh - without listening the divine message how can one make his thought process pious. So it is grooming of mind that bhagat jee is referring and not shaving the body hair. Thus with this understanding I started decoding the meaning of  'lambai kesh and ghard mundai' - grooming thought process as pious by listening to divine wisdom, if we really want to eliminate the demon thought process.      

best regards
sahni


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 10, 2013)

Sahni Ji..
I agree.
But what these proponents of "KESHREMOVAL" trying to prove in that Bhagat kabir Ji Shabad is totally OUT of context.

The CONTEXT is as follows.

In Hinduism there are TWO ways to exhibit "religiousness" "piety".
1. is by Keeping LONG HAIR...these types of religious/pious SADHUS with Long matted hair beards can be seen at any hindu Festival..esp the Kumbh mela .

2. There is another group who DONT KEEP Long hair..quite the opposite they PULL OUT HAIRS BY THE ROOTS..and RUB ASHES to KILL the hair roots. (GHARRARR MUNDAI)

These are also mentioned by GURU NANAK JI in His bani as USELESS and WORTHLESS "sons" who are of no use to their families..fathers..Mothers.. (needed to set the cremation pyre alight at death but since they have left home this is not done)..and also Worthless to SOCIETY as they wander around begging and not doing any social responsibility earning etc. They think solely GHARARR MUNDAI they are pious.

THESE TWO GROUPS are being REJECTED BY KABIR JI ( also by Gurus sahibs esp Guru nanak ji )..as they do the actions _keep matted hair or kill hair by the roots _ in order to EXHIBIT PIETY. Kabir ji says the MANN and NOT the Body is the one that needs to be PIOUS.

3. The SIKH context of Keeping Long Hair - CLEAN  and washed, OILED regularly, COMBED twice daily, tied neatly in joorra, covered respectfully by DASTAAR etc is part and aprcel fo the MARYADA...DISCIPLINE of the KHALSA. Its NOT to exhibit PIETY..or any such thing.
So the Kabir Gurbani DOESNT APPLY HERE. GURBANI now here states that merely keeping kesh automatically showers piety on one...this is just and simply an exercise in OBEYING HUKM...HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA....first step.


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## japjisahib04 (May 10, 2013)

Giani Ji

I understand your point, but my understanding is based on gurbani. I could be wrong also. 

Let us take another pankti of Bhagat kabir Jee and also from Guru Arjan jee, ''ਹਾਡ ਜਲੇ ਜੈਸੇ ਲਕਰੀ ਕਾ ਤੂਲਾ ॥ due to my strong fire of desire, the structure of my body built with strong bones erodes and is burning like wood and 'ਕੇਸ ਜਲੇ ਜੈਸੇ ਘਾਸ ਕਾ ਪੂਲਾ ॥੨॥ and ‘kesh’  - my intelligence is wanning out like grass day by day making me almost hypocrate or criminal. As you know in gurbani 'kesh' is a symbol of intelligence, 'ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਕੇਸ ਸੰਗਿ ਝਾਰੇ ॥੧ SGGS.387.12. 

Best regards
sahni


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## kanwaljs (May 13, 2013)

japjisahib04 said:


> During my last interaction with a so called learned doctor, the discussion ended with the sabd, 'bhavey lambay kesh kar bhavey ghardh mundhai - sikhi is all from within thus either keep long hair or shave them off, it does not matter and I noticed most of the time he uses this sabd and feels relax. I started wondering when sikhi is all about surrendering to hukam and Hairs are part of that Hukam, then why would gurbani suggest us to either discard them or keep, it does not matter. Thus I started contemplating on this sabd and the one earlier sabd and was wondering about the context of the sabd.
> 
> First thing, I noticed the word, 'bhavey' does it contain a 'bindi' that we are interpreting it as 'either' or does it mean 'to appreciate - bhavey' or whosoever likes to merge in divine wisdom. Similarly we need to see what does bhagat kabeer means by 'kesh' through his other sabds. Like when he says, 'manh mundia nahi kesh mundhai kaheh - without listening the divine message how can one make his thought process pious. So it is grooming of mind that bhagat jee is referring and not shaving the body hair. Thus with this understanding I started decoding the meaning of  'lambai kesh and ghard mundai' - grooming thought process as pious by listening to divine wisdom, if we really want to eliminate the demon thought process.
> 
> ...


'bhavey lambay kesh kar bhavey ghardh mundha'   Here the meaning of 'Lambey Kesh kar means, don't increase your kesh just like 'jataieny', as some Yogies do.  Keep the hairs in natural ways and keep them clean. Guru Nanak says, 'Balihari kudrat vasiya, Tera ant na jayi lakhiya'. Kesh kudrat ney hi grow kitey han, kesh jitni baar katto utni bar fer aa jandey han, es da matlab key Rabb di pakki marzi hai key ensaan keshadhari hovey. Pakki marzi wali gall vi Guru Nanak Sahib ess tarah keh rahey han, key 'Akalpurukh da Bhana man na chahida hai', atey 'Akalpurukh da hukam vi man na chahida hai'.


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## palaingtha (May 14, 2013)

max314 said:


> It's a lifestyle choice and, as long as it isn't harming anyone else, no-one has the right to ridicule or make snide remarks about people who make that choice.
> 
> I see a surprising amount of intolerance coming from a people who originally built their reputation on the back of tolerance and acceptance.
> 
> Have you ever thought that it is perhaps this exact kind of scolding and stuck-up attitude towards "how it should be" that is driving people away - if, of course, that _is_ the case.




I do not agree with you.
Let us take the case of members of associations like, professionals, Doctors, Accountants, Lawyers or political parties. Every association has its rules and regulation. Its members have to abide by the ethics prescribed by the concerned association. If any member breaches it he has to apologize and amend his future actions and if his action could not be condoned he is expelled from that association.
Likewise when a Sikh cuts his hair he is declared a PATIT and excommunicated from the Panth. If he trims or shaves partially he is asked by his elders or near and dears to abide by Sikh Maryada.
It is not any type scolding which drives one to shaving off his hair. Either he has fallen in bad company or he has seen some one shaving off and nobody criticized him or he had to face any sort of hardships like snide remarks or ridiculed by others and, thus he got encouraged. In Sikh households it should be made clear to the children that the family is not going to tolerate anything like what so and so has done(shaved off hair) and that person shall be denounced whenever his name crops up in discussions. 
In a few lines I will tell my story. In Burma, where I lived, during end of II World War one Sikh, a Government official, said that times are changing fast. We used to greet each other with salutation "Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh", but now people greet each other by salutation with a finger. Times are changing, before we used to travel on foot, cart or cycles. Now by cars and air planes. By the time we say "Wahe Guru Ji........." the man greeted is far out of hearing. Sikhs will shed their hairs and there will be no Sikh by end of the century.
Hearing this I pledged that in such a situation I would be the last Sikh living in my Sikhi form. My son some day heard this episode when he was about 7-8 years and he now says he will be the last Sikh living should this impossible situation arises.


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## kds1980 (May 15, 2013)

palaingtha said:


> I do not agree with you.
> 
> Likewise when a Sikh cuts his hair he is declared a PATIT and excommunicated from the Panth. If he trims or shaves partially he is asked by his elders or near and dears to abide by Sikh Maryada.
> It is not any type scolding which drives one to shaving off his hair. Either he has fallen in bad company or he has seen some one shaving off and nobody criticized him or he had to face any sort of hardships like snide remarks or ridiculed by others and, thus he got encouraged. In Sikh households it should be made clear to the children that the family is not going to tolerate anything like what so and so has done(shaved off hair) and that person shall be denounced whenever his name crops up in discussions.



In other words you are suggesting that sikhs should threaten or blackmail their children  to keep their hair.And on this very same site we hear how sikhi is by choice , and it modern , liberal religion


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## buddhushah (May 15, 2013)

palaingtha said:


> I do not agree with you.
> Let us take the case of members of associations like, professionals, Doctors, Accountants, Lawyers or political parties. Every association has its rules and regulation. Its members have to abide by the ethics prescribed by the concerned association. If any member breaches it he has to apologize and amend his future actions and if his action could not be condoned he is expelled from that association.
> Likewise when a Sikh cuts his hair he is declared a PATIT and excommunicated from the Panth. If he trims or shaves partially he is asked by his elders or near and dears to abide by Sikh Maryada.
> It is not any type scolding which drives one to shaving off his hair. Either he has fallen in bad company or he has seen some one shaving off and nobody criticized him or he had to face any sort of hardships like snide remarks or ridiculed by others and, thus he got encouraged. In Sikh households it should be made clear to the children that the family is not going to tolerate anything like what so and so has done(shaved off hair) and that person shall be denounced whenever his name crops up in discussions.
> ...



Respectfull sir,sikhi is to be lived and died for,out of sheer love,that is sincere ,humble and honest.please do not trade it on pledges,etc.[it was never supposed to be,]     Dear max,identities are important .let aside their idealogical values/basis.a chef without his cap,a judge without his,police officer in tees,a man in forces without his colours etc . here it is a case of AKAL PURAKH KI FAUJ.when you enter a fold,you abide by its rules ,you may like some .  Palaingtha ji,your zeal ,discipline ,sincerity,enthusiasm at this age is adorable and praiseworthy .my humble respects to you.and respectable.


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## palaingtha (May 15, 2013)

aristotle said:


> Brother,
> I would rather think it is you who is insecure because you are doing exactly the same thing, writing a long post without a single fact and beating around the bush. Isn't that so...?



A jaundiced eye sees only yellow all around.


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## palaingtha (May 15, 2013)

buddhushah said:


> Respectfull sir,sikhi is to be lived and died for,out of sheer love,that is sincere ,humble and honest.please do not trade it on pledges,etc.[it was never supposed to be,]



What you have posted is meaningless. One has to be committed, determined to live a life of Sikh come what may. That amounts to pledge. It is a well ingrained decision. What is wrong in that. Don't find faults if you have nothing to say better.
If all the Sikhs who have cut their hair make a determined commitment and pledge that they would return to Sikh fold what a happy day for the Panth that would be.


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## Harry Haller (May 15, 2013)

> If all the Sikhs who have cut their hair make a determined commitment and pledge that they would return to Sikh fold what a happy day for the Panth that would be.


 
but surely you would then have a panth consisting of people that looked like Sikhs but did not behave like Sikhs or even think like Sikhs. 

Personally I think it quite dangerous to have people running loose who think they are Sikhs, who look like Sikhs, but behave with little or no grace.


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