# Paurees Suggest A Rather Abrahamic God-figure



## Ishna (Jan 5, 2013)

*squints at screen... not sure if Waheguru... or Allah!*

I was reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji just now and noticed an interesting set of paurhis which seem to describe Akal Purakh in Abrahamical terms, starting at ang 89. I was surprised by this.

The paurhis are separated by shaloks and I can't see how they relate.

Here's ang 89 at SriGranth: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=89 

Here's the entire section in English with the paurhis highlighted. I've left the Gurmukhi out as the post will become too cumbersome otherwise. I hope that's ok. I'm not sure which comes first, shalok or paurhi, so I've kept the shaloks at the very beginning of the section and at the very end in case they are relevant.

I always thought people reaped what they sowed. I never considered Guruji as the kind of creative force which actively chose sides, wielding justice in his hand, bashing the sinners and coddling the believers. That's how this reads, a bit. What do you think?

It also frightens me to think this sentiment can be used to displace responsibility, i.e. 'she suffered because she was a sinner, even if we didn't see it, God saw it, and delivered justice in the form of this suffering'.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.

SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord—take that body and burn it. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Forgetting the Primal Lord, O Nanak, people are born and die, over and over again. Mistaking it for musk, they have fallen into the stinking pit of filth. || 2 || *PAUREE: Meditate on that Name of the Lord, O my mind, whose Command rules over all. Chant that Name of the Lord, O my mind, which will save you at the very last moment. Chant that Name of the Lord, O my mind, which shall drive out all hunger and desire from your mind. Very fortunate and blessed is that Gurmukh who chants the Naam; it shall bring all slanderers and wicked enemies to fall at his feet. O Nanak, worship and adore the Naam, the Greatest Name of all, before which all come and bow.* || 15 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: She may wear good clothes, but the bride is ugly and rude; her mind is false and impure. She does not walk in harmony with the Will of her Husband Lord. Instead, she foolishly gives Him orders. But she who walks in harmony with the Guru’s Will, shall be spared all pain and suffering. That destiny which was pre-ordained by the Creator cannot be erased. She must dedicate her mind and body to her Husband Lord, and enshrine love for the Word of the Shabad. Without His Name, no one has found Him; see this and reflect upon it in your heart. O Nanak, she is beautiful and graceful; the Creator Lord ravishes and enjoys her. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Attachment to Maya is an ocean of darkness; neither this shore nor the one beyond can be seen. The ignorant, self-willed manmukhs suffer in terrible pain; they forget the Lord’s Name and drown. They arise in the morning and perform all sorts of rituals, but they are caught in the love of duality. Those who serve the True Guru cross over the terrifying world-ocean. O Nanak, the Gurmukhs keep the True Name enshrined in their hearts; they are absorbed into the True One. || 2 || *PAUREE: The Lord pervades and permeates the water, the land and the sky; there is no other at all. The Lord Himself sits upon His Throne and administers justice. He beats and drives out the false-hearted. The Lord bestows glorious greatness upon those who are truthful. He administers righteous justice. So praise the Lord, everybody; He protects the poor and the lost souls. He honors the righteous and punishes the sinners. || 16 ||* SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: The self-willed manmukh, the foolish bride, is a filthy, rude and evil wife. Forsaking her Husband Lord and leaving her own home, she gives her love to another. Her desires are never satisfied, and she burns and cries out in pain. O Nanak, without the Name, she is ugly and ungraceful. She is abandoned and left behind by her Husband Lord. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: The happy soul-bride is attuned to the Word of the Shabad; she is in love with the True Guru. She continually enjoys and ravishes her Beloved, with true love and affection. She is such a loveable, beautiful and noble woman. O Nanak, through the Naam, the happy soul-bride unites with the Lord of Union. || 2 || *PAUREE: Lord, everyone sings Your Praises. You have freed us from bondage. Lord, everyone bows in reverence to You. You have saved us from our sinful ways. Lord, You are the Honor of the dishonored. Lord, You are the Strongest of the strong. The Lord beats down the egocentrics and corrects the foolish, self-willed manmukhs. The Lord bestows glorious greatness on His devotees, the poor, and the lost souls. || 17 ||* SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: One who walks in harmony with the Will of the True Guru, obtains the greatest glory. The Exalted Name of the Lord abides in his mind, and no one can take it away. That person, upon whom the Lord bestows His Grace, receives His Mercy. O Nanak, creativity is under the control of the Creator; how rare are those who, as Gurmukh, realize this! || 1 || THIRD MEHL: O Nanak, those who worship and adore the Lord’s Name night and day, vibrate the String of the Lord’s Love. Maya, the maid-servant of our Lord and Master, serves them. The Perfect One has made them perfect; by the Hukam of His Command, they are embellished. By Guru’s Grace, they understand Him, and they find the gate of salvation. The self-willed manmukhs do not know the Lord’s Command; they are beaten down by the Messenger of Death. But the Gurmukhs, who worship and adore the Lord, cross over the terrifying world-ocean. All their demerits are erased, and replaced with merits. The Guru Himself is their Forgiver. || 2 || *PAUREE: The Lord’s devotees have faith in Him. The Lord knows everything. No one is as great a Knower as the Lord; the Lord administers righteous justice. Why should we feel any burning anxiety, since the Lord does not punish without just cause? True is the Master, and True is His Justice; only the sinners are defeated. O devotees, praise the Lord with your palms pressed together; the Lord saves His humble devotees. || 18 ||* SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: Oh, if only I could meet my Beloved, and keep Him enshrined deep within my heart! I praise that God forever and ever, through love and affection for the Guru. O Nanak, that one upon whom He bestows His Glance of Grace is united with Him; such a person is the true soul-bride of the Lord. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Serving the Guru, the Lord is obtained, when He bestows His Glance of Grace. They are transformed from humans into angels, meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They conquer their egotism and merge with the Lord; they are saved through the Word of the Guru’s Shabad. O Nanak, they merge imperceptibly into the Lord, who has bestowed His Favor upon them. || 2 || *PAUREE: The Lord Himself inspires us to worship Him; He reveals His Glorious Greatness. He Himself inspires us to place our faith in Him. **Thus He performs His Own Service. The Lord bestows bliss upon His devotees, and gives them a seat in the eternal home. He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell. The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. || 19 ||* SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: False-mindedness is the drummer-woman; cruelty is the butcheress; slander of others in one’s heart is the cleaning-woman, and deceitful anger is the outcast-woman. What good are the ceremonial lines drawn around your kitchen, when these four are seated there with you? Make Truth your self-discipline, and make good deeds the lines you draw; make chanting the Name your cleansing bath. O Nanak, those who do not walk in the ways of sin, shall be exalted in the world hereafter. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: Which is the swan, and which is the crane? It is only by His Glance of Grace. Whoever is pleasing to Him, O Nanak, is transformed from a crow into a swan. || 2 ||


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 5, 2013)

THE *translator* IS THE ONE GIVING THAT IMPRESSION JI...

PROF SAHIB SINGHS PUNJABI DARPAN..doesnt give that impression at all...!!!!

The "Head" that doesnt bow...to HIM...is WORTHLESS...(discard it ) THATS exactly what we all supposedly DO when we Matha TEK to SGGS...we supposedly "DISCARD" our HEAD (Manmatt) and Take back GURUMATT !!   The BODY that does not have the Creators GUNNAS..is WORTHLESS....rubbish...and we do routinely burn rubbish dont we ??

READ in the GURBANI and PUNJABI CONTEXT..the Tuks are perfectly in line with the rest of SGGS...but the way the TRANSLATOR...translated..they do seem "Abrahams vengeful god types.." sorry..WRONG GOD !!

BTW Sheikh farid Ji also says the same thing about the Unbowing head...cut it off and throw it away ( BUT this is a SELF ACTION....NOT an order for someone like the TALIBAN to do it on OTHERS HEADS !!! ABRAHAMS GOD doenst CUT his own head..He orders others heads cut..or other cities destroyed..The GOD of SGGS NEVER ORDERED any Bhai to SACRIFICE his SON...Guru Gobind Singh Ji sacrificed his 4 sons of his own FREE WILL...not because His God asked him to...as Abrahams God did....and UNLIKE Abrahams God...GGS God DID NOT then ask GGS to sacrifice a GOAT instead of the 4 sons...lots of differences..


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 5, 2013)

I have read translations that are written in the spirit of the Bible, including usage of similar words. I think sometimes the translators get carried away..........


----------



## Ishna (Jan 5, 2013)

Hmm, both translations at SriGranth give that impression. :S I give up with English translations then. There is nothing to be learned. Classical Punjabi it is then.


----------



## Luckysingh (Jan 5, 2013)

> always thought people reaped what they sowed. I never considered Guruji as the kind of creative force which actively chose sides, wielding justice in his hand, bashing the sinners and coddling the believers. That's how this reads, a bit. What do you think?


 
Sometimes it is easier to get the messages across in this style of translation.
I wouldn't treat it as a wrong translation, but I would rather simplify it to your own personal understanding.

Personally I have absolutely no problem when these kind of terms are used or even when there is talk of angels and similar which is on the other thread.
People not so educated, informed or wise find it easier to understand actions and consequences when these descriptions are used.

Maybe it's just my school bible upbringing that makes me more accomadating for abrahamic talk !!!!


----------



## Brother Onam (Jan 5, 2013)

I always find it funny when I see writers, translating punjabi in the 20th century, using ''thee" and "thou" terminology -17th century british-, because it sounds 'holy'.


----------



## Luckysingh (Jan 5, 2013)

thou shall read the words of the Lord and thy shall be done
winkingmunda


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 5, 2013)

Thats WHY we get all those...Maala wearing sehli topis cholas and stuff...in certain minds..THAT IS THE OFFICIAL UNIFORM of a HOLY MAN...so how could Guru nanak Ji be NOT having maals upon maaals..or sehli topi on hsi head..etc etc

Thats why we get entangled in Vedas and Puraans and Korans abd Bibles...How dare Guru nanak ji walk a DIFFERENT PATH..its not religious" at all....

Its Just not done..a Holy man has to wear Orange..White..Black..GREEN....a Holy Man has to act a certain way, dress a certain way..walk a certain way..talk a certain way...CONFORM !!!

GURU NANAK did NOT conform..He walked a new Path...used New techniques - GO TO where the Crowds are to preach...( not wait for people to gather around him)...DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE to teach and attract attention..GO to the CENTRAL HQ and catch the bull by its horns...Hardwaar, Sri lanka, Badrinath, Kanshi, Jaganath Puri..Mecca Medina Baghdad etc etc

THis is why anyone attempting to understand the GURBANI of Guru nanak must be  revolutionary minded...able to think out of the box..cut all ties to established paths and walk the new path..the unbeaten path..he must remove any  colored spectacles and see FRESH SKIES (that are NOT BLUE !!) Every one sees the BLUE SKY...*but those who dare to fly high enough will see that the SKY is actually BLACK !! That is how high one has to fly before one can see what actually GURU NANAK JI is saying.*..all those who are satisfied sitting at Ground level..CANNOT escape the* Blue sky*...


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 6, 2013)

Isi  Even Abrahams God is constrained in that he is God ,which then presupposes that he can do no wrong lest he no longer be rightly called God.


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 6, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Isi  Even Abrahams God is constrained in that he is God ,which then presupposes that he can do no wrong lest he no longer be rightly called God.



Allow me to quote the bible brother

 _The LORD is a jealous God,  filled with vengeance and wrath.  He takes revenge on all who oppose him and  furiously destroys his enemies!  The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is  great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished.  He displays his power in the  whirlwind and the storm.  The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet.   At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and  Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt.  In his presence the  mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are  destroyed.  Who can stand before his fierce anger?  Who can survive his burning  fury?  His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his  presence.  The LORD is good.  When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge.  And he  knows everyone who trusts in him.  But he sweeps away his enemies in an  overwhelming flood.  He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. _ (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

I do not recognise such a being as God, that is why this being is referred to as an Abrahamic God, and why I am a Sikh


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 6, 2013)

> I do not recognise such a being as God, that is why this being is referred to as an Abrahamic God, and why I am a Sikh



Veer Ji He cannot be Referred to easily ,nor can he be Labelled and in his Narrative he is both notional and relational.


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 6, 2013)

> Veer Ji He cannot be Referred to ,nor can he be Labelled



you just did, and constantly dolol



> and in his Narrative he is both notional and relational.



but which narrative? the Abrahamic God shows evidence of thieves being present, I prefer the narrative of the Sikh God


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 7, 2013)

Veer Ji don't presuppose they are different,I don't see why he can't be angry and not angry at the same time.


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 7, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji don't presuppose they are different,I don't see why he can't be angry and not angry at the same time.



Spji, 

I know your posts can be cryptic, but let us look at this statement in a bit more depth. 

The following is from the bible, 
_Lo, a day shall come for  the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst.  And I will gather all  the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses  plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of  the people shall not be removed from the city. _  (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

The fact is that whether he can be angry or not angry at the same time is irrelevent. The words as written above justify and encourage others to be angry, to plunder and rape women. Find me anything that comes close to this in the SGGS...

Do you know what the trouble with duality is? it is everything, but it is also nothing


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2013)

My impression was that Scarlet Pimpernel was illustrating how the Abrahamic god does demonstrate anger and no anger within the same space of time. In contrast to.... the Sikh vision of god who is without enmity and without fear/nirbhao and nirvair. He will of course correct me if I mistook his words, and yes I hope it is not too cryptic.


----------



## Harry Haller (Jan 7, 2013)

> My impression was that Scarlet Pimpernel was illustrating how the  Abrahamic god does demonstrate anger and no anger within the same space  of time


Those that do not possess the ability to differentiate such a difficult concept will see only anger, as the crusades demonstrated. 

If this was indeed SPji's illustration, perhaps I could be enlightened by him as to how one demonstrates anger and no anger within the same space of time, say raping and pillaging, but with medicines and bandages at the ready, or words of sympathy,  or is it just a concept that sounds good but is actually meaningless.

Actually this ties in quite nicely with those that rape and pillage in the name of God, but when caught, proclaim that they were merely carrying out Gods will.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 7, 2013)

Veer Ji Let us make things light,why is God not afraid?
Because he's not married!


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh no! Not again! The tree that fell in the Black Forest revisits the forum! Kind of like Jason in Friday the 13th?


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 7, 2013)

This is poor translations as has been stated in other posts.

Alway bear in mind the opening line of the Sikh prayer:

Ek Onkar Satnam

There is but one reality/constant/god, it's name is *truth*

Truth seems to have this effect on people. People fall infront of the truth. It drives away falsehood. It drives away selfwill. Once people realise this truth there is no room in them for superfulous the 5 thieves.

One could say the Abrahamic sense see's God firing bolts down etc, the Sikh concept is totally different from this. It is about within. Once you realise the truth within you, it drives out everything else.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 7, 2013)

Veer Ji I can't explain the question you posed about man as he and i can be in error ,but a God who makes errors is not God,I also think he might be an Insurance company as everyone calls him when they're in trouble and everyone keeps sending off their premiums religiously.


----------



## Ishna (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your replies.

If the problem is in the translation, perhaps you can help me get a different perspective with help of the original.

If it's ok, can we use this paurhee as an example?

ਹਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੇਖਾਲੀਅਨੁ ॥ 

हरि आपणी भगति कराइ वडिआई वेखालीअनु ॥ 

Har āpṇī bẖagaṯ karā▫e vadi▫ā▫ī vekẖāli▫an. 

The Lord Himself inspires us to worship Him; He reveals His Glorious Greatness. 


ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਘਾਲੀਅਨੁ ॥ 

आपणी आपि करे परतीति आपे सेव घालीअनु ॥ 

Āpṇī āp kare parṯīṯ āpe sev gẖālī▫an. 

He Himself inspires us to place our faith in Him. Thus He performs His Own Service. 

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਘਰੀ ਬਹਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ 

हरि भगता नो देइ अनंदु थिरु घरी बहालिअनु ॥ 

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e anand thir gẖarī bahāli▫an. 

*The Lord bestows bliss upon His devotees, and gives them a seat in the eternal home.* 


ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ 

पापीआ नो न देई थिरु रहणि चुणि नरक घोरि चालिअनु ॥ 

Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. 

*He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.* 


ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਅੰਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਅਨੁ ॥੧੯॥ 

हरि भगता नो देइ पिआरु करि अंगु निसतारिअनु ॥१९॥ 

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e pi▫ār kar ang nisṯāri▫an. ||19|| 

The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. ||19|| 

​Manmohan Singh's translation for comparison:

ਹਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੇਖਾਲੀਅਨੁ ॥ 

हरि आपणी भगति कराइ वडिआई वेखालीअनु ॥ 

Har āpṇī bẖagaṯ karā▫e vadi▫ā▫ī vekẖāli▫an. 

By putting man to his devotional service, God has manifested His glory.1 


ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਘਾਲੀਅਨੁ ॥ 

आपणी आपि करे परतीति आपे सेव घालीअनु ॥ 

Āpṇī āp kare parṯīṯ āpe sev gẖālī▫an. 

God causes the devotee to place faith in Him and through him performs His own service. 

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਘਰੀ ਬਹਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ 

हरि भगता नो देइ अनंदु थिरु घरी बहालिअनु ॥ 

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e anand thir gẖarī bahāli▫an. 

*God bestows bliss on His faithful adorers and seats them in the eternal home.* 


ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ 

पापीआ नो न देई थिरु रहणि चुणि नरक घोरि चालिअनु ॥ 

Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. 

*To the sinners He allows not stability. Picking them up, He consigns them to the terrible hell.* 


ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਅੰਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਅਨੁ ॥੧੯॥ 

हरि भगता नो देइ पिआरु करि अंगु निसतारिअनु ॥१९॥ 

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e pi▫ār kar ang nisṯāri▫an. ||19|| 

The Lord blesses His devotees, with His love and taking their side saves them. 
​The word-for-word translations seem to match the original words.  Is there something lost in the poetry or subtlety?

Do the words in fact mean what they mean in English, but Sikhs are expected to have more background knowledge to be able to read between the lines?

Thanks


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 7, 2013)

> The word-for-word translations seem to match the original words. Is there something lost in the poetry or subtlety?



Isi the problem lies in our own mind set.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2013)

Ishna ji

I don't understand your questions. Could you phrase them a different way? I don't understand what you are asking:



> Is there something lost in the poetry or subtlety?
> 
> ... Sikhs are expected to have more background knowledge to be able to read between the lines?



In all poetry there is always the matter of reading between the lines. Poetry is never a matter of literal meaning even when there are no translation issues. 

When poetry is translated, the translator has multiple jobs. 

At least one task is to give a reasonable translation so that the word meanings from the first language are conveyed as well as they can be. 
Another task is to capture the meaning in a way that makes sense in the second language. Direct translation from Punjabi to English can sound like gibberish in English. 
At least one other task calls for interpretation by the translator, so the reader gets the point of the poetry as the translator understands that point.

If the translator can interpret the meaning, and at the same time stay close to the original language, as you have shown, so much the better. That is what professional translators say they try to do. So I think I am missing the point of your questions.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2013)

Let me give a flat-footed example of what I am talking about. Many people object to the use of the word "He" in translations because Akaal is neither male nor female. Other people object to the use of the word "God" because it sounds too Judaeo-Christian, and misses the idea that Akaal is without form. Yet other people object to the use of "Lord." 

These objections make light of the translator's dilemma. The tuks actually say neither "He" nor "God' nor "Lord." They say "Har." A direct translation would require that a tuk say "Hari Himself (because Hari is masculine) moves us (inspires us)  to devotion (worship)....." The Hari connection however sounds like a Hindu slant on the tuk. To take it that way would also be a mistake because "Har" in the ancient scripture is not god in a literal sense, but a supreme being who takes away pain and suffering and delivers moksha.  

So we could translate Har āpṇī bẖagaṯ karā▫e as follows: "A supreme being (who takes away all pain and suffering) moves us to devotion."  At this point I wager the translator will lose his western audience, though Buddhists and Jains would probably get it. They would get it because it is part of their culture and history. How many non-Punjabi speakers would make the connection?

But that is the implication in the tuk. It is a supreme being who takes away pain and suffering who inspires us to worship. Where to go next? Would the average Sikh selected at random on the streets of Ludhiana understand what the tuk is saying given the word "Har?" I don't know. I think many would think the tuk was endorsing Hindu mythology. If the audience is western, the translator shifts gears and uses words like "Lord" or "God." Is that the ideal? Probably not. Then there is the question, Do we want only Punjabis to know of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or do we want to share Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with the world? That about wraps it up.


----------



## Ishna (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks Adminji.  I don't have time just now to read or reply properly but I will later.  Just to quickly clarify my question, what I'm trying to say is, the Punjabi in the original paurhee contain words like 'sinners', 'kill', 'hell', etc.  So my question is, how is the translation itself the problem?  How is the translation describing something other than a god-character who is rewarding the believers and punishing the sinners?

I promise I'll stop asking language-related questions after this!


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Thanks Adminji.  I don't have time just now to read or reply properly but I will later.  Just to quickly clarify my question, what I'm trying to say is, the Punjabi in the original paurhee contain words like 'sinners', 'kill', 'hell', etc.  So my question is, how is the translation itself the problem?  How is the translation describing something other than a god-character who is rewarding the believers and punishing the sinners?
> 
> I promise I'll stop asking language-related questions after this!



Well don't stop asking questions because it is good to push us to think Ishna ji. They are good quesitons.

Thanks for making your question clear by pointing to specific words. I had already checked some of that out. The words you list are not translations that stay close to the Punjabi, or to the meaning in Gurbani. The translation is the problem. The translator in all fairness probably did not know what else to say. Together responders on this thread can go back and discuss the translations to "sinners", "kill", and "hell" giving their understanding.

Tuks in question: ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell. 

and, ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. To the sinners He allows not stability. Picking them up, He consigns them to the terrible hell.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 7, 2013)

The trouble is our MINDSET...we take "kill..sin..sinners..hell heaven etc.." in the ABRAHAMIC CONTEXT !!.....whereas in the GURU NANAK CONTEXT..these words means something entirely DIFFERENT...

A. has a "father" who comes home drunk every night. beats up his wife and kids..swears continuously..watches hard core pron in the living room..has a dozen naked girls all over him...

B. has  a "Father" who comes home laden with presents for his wife and kids..kisses them..bathes them, takes them out for dinner treats movies etc etc..plays with the family dog..etc etc..reads form the bible/koran/sggs discusses and talks with his a famaily...

C comes along and asks them BOTH meaning of "FATHER"...will the TWO A and B give the same descriptions of FATHER ??

Guru Arjun Ji..in SGGS..describes His FATHER..." MITTH BOLLRRA JI HAR Saajn mera........Mein hambhal thakee ji..Kaddeh na bolleh kaurrah...  My father is my Friend..He ALWAYS so  full to overflowing with soft spoken sweetness...I tried all sorts of ways and means to make him angry..BUT he NEVER spoke an angry word or gesture

Compare that to the God of the Bible...He sends Hell fire and Brimstone on Soddom and Gomorrah because of a few Gays and Lesbians..He destroys entire cities including all livestock..he demands BURNT OFFERINGS sacrifices of MEAT and BLOOD..

The CREATOR of SGGS..is not God..He is not Lord..he is not an angry god..he is NOT wt all like other gods of other books...

The "HELL" of Sikhi is SEPARATION FROM OUR BELOVED..the anguish..the pain deep inside..the sleepless nights..the sweating and restlessness...and HEAVEN is the Bliss of being in His Loving ARMS...there are NO fires or boiling cauldrons..demons torturing..and neither are there rivers of milk and honey and angels dancing and beautiful houris pandering to HUMAN DESIRES !! milk..Honey..SEX with VIRGINS..etc etc are NOT the Sikh idea of "heaven" at all...

READ THIS JOKE..and you will see the difference !!! of how different people look at things...what the POPE "thinks" is NOT at all what the "Sikh" thinks..HA HA HA...
To a SIKH..an APPLE is a Fruit for LUNCH..to a catholic its the SIGN OF ORIGINAL SIN !!!

http://www.apunkaweb.com/text/jokes/608-sikhs-vs-pope.html


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 7, 2013)

HELL....whats the difference..?? arent all HELLs the same...No they arent...read on..

*NDIAN HELL

 A man dies and goes to hell. There he finds that there is a different hell for each country. 

 He goes to the German hell and asks, "What do they do here?" He told,  "First they put you in an electric chair for An hour. Then they lay you  on a bed of nails for another hour. Then The German devil comes in and  beats you for the rest of the day." 

 The man does not like the sound of that at all, so he moves on. He  checks out the USA hell as well as the Russian hell and many more. 

 He discovers that they are all more or less the same as the German hell. 

 Then he comes to the Indian hell and finds that there is a long line of people waiting to get in. 

 Amazed, he asks, "What do they do here?" 
 He told, "First they put you in an electric chair for an hour. Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour. 

 Then the Indian devil comes in and beats you for the rest of the day." 

 "But that is exactly the same as all the other hells - why are there so many people waiting to get in?" 

 "Because maintenance is so bad that 

 ·         the electric chair does not work, 

 ·         someone has stolen all the nails from the bed 

 ·         and the devil is a former Govt servant, so he comes in, signs the register and then goes to the canteen!!!!! !*


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 8, 2013)

> First they put you in an electric chair for an hour. Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour.


Gyani Ji 

How do you measure an hour in eternity ,and since they should have been cremated they won't be needing the chair or the bed !but what really puzzles me is why the Govt servant  didn't bring a packed lunch (achaar prontha)


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 8, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Gyani Ji
> 
> How do you measure an hour in eternity ,and since they should have been cremated they won't be needing the chair or the bed !but what really puzzles me is why the Govt servant  didn't bring a packed lunch (achaar prontha)




Good question Sp Ji..

I dont know the answers...and neither did anyone else...even Guru nanak ji sahib ...even though the  authors of Veds Katebs purans think they do...

Anyway..i heard that in "Eternity" an hour or a DAY is considerably DIFFERENT form our Hours/days on earth...you see in GENESIS..god worked for 6 days..and rested for an ENTIRE seventh day....wow..he really got tired out..he he...and that a "Day" of the gods is maybe centuries or millions or even billions of man years...who knows...

So an hour in the electric chair..may very well be a billion hours of earth time..after all whats the HURRY ?? he he its eternity  we are talking about..

And in case you didnt notice..in HELL its "hot...dry..desert conditions..lots of fires and boiling cauldrons etc..demons pulling out teeth (minus anasthetic for sure he he)...and demons cutting tongues..etc etc..and in Heaven its angels sitting around playing harps and flutes...ALL VERY VERY HUMAN things...and NOT "souly" at all !!! he he..perhaps this is becasue the HELL/Heaven is described so to scare the HELL out of HUMANS...and reward HUMANS..( who love honey milk and virgins)...and WHAT A SOUL fears or loves..NO ONE KNOWS/KNEW...????

So i beleive..all this is merely a human hiding behind a pillar and SHOUTING..BOOOOOOOOOOO!! to frighten those who get frightened easily....and Since a SIKH following the SGGS Gurmatt doesnt fear Death...such Hells and Heavens hold no thrill at all...sorry to disappoint the demons and the angels...i prefer the Creators abode..


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2013)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Good question Sp Ji..
> 
> So i beleive..all this is merely a human hiding behind a pillar and SHOUTING..BOOOOOOOOOOO!! to frighten those who get frightened easily....and Since a SIKH following the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmatt doesnt fear Death...such Hells and Heavens hold no thrill at all...sorry to disappoint the demons and the angels...i prefer the Creators abode..



It is a way for the enlightened few to control everyone else. Don't want any independent thinkers causing a disturbance on the rocky road through 84 lakh joon, when finally finally finally the pinacle is in sight, maybe. A few threats keep everyone's mind on the task at hand. Another question would be how does counting out all those joon fit with the concept of eternity? Why not 85 lakh? Baffling isn't it?


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 8, 2013)

> to frighten those who get frightened easily....and Since a SIKH following the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmatt doesnt fear


Gyani Ji 
A Sikh does not fear death but seems to fear just about everything else.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 8, 2013)

SP JI..

 IMHO....THE "sIKH" THAT FEARS EVERYTHING ELSE IS NOT A SIKH...
people point at "Sikhs" bowing in Hanuman Mandirs..putting tilaks..tying rakhrrees, holy threads to ward off eveil eye....matha tkeing at graves..etc etc..but all these are NOT SIKHS at all..because a SIKH doenst do all those..  These people all just look like sikhs.or think they are sikhs.....inside they are anything BUT SIKH.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 8, 2013)

Gyani Ji they are sleeping Sikhs,the Guru can awaken them by his grace, for is anyone fearless from his own doing.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 8, 2013)

Veer Ji Harry 

I have been pondering that question about pillaging and bandages,so far as I can see in the one applying bandages it is easy to see Godliness,in the one suffering hurt its hard to see any point,but what you are inside seems to generate whats playing outside.


----------



## Luckysingh (Jan 8, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Gyani Ji
> A Sikh does not fear death but seems to fear just about everything else.


 
YES, especially TAXES !!!!!!
I have yet to meet a sikh who has not exploited legal loopholes because of the fear of tax !!


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 9, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> YES, especially TAXES !!!!!!
> I have yet to meet a sikh who has not exploited legal loopholes because of the fear of tax !!


Veer Ji I'm not sure that is fear ,it may be greed or attachment.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 9, 2013)

Lucky ji..
I know many sikhs who fear their wives..


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 9, 2013)

In biblical times the way was through fear ,even fear has its uses. In Ardaas Sikhs even ask that they lose not their devotion, is that a fear or is it love of faith?Not much has changed since those times as were still writing on tablets!


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 9, 2013)

SP ji..Nice Image...Thanks.cheerleader


----------



## Luckysingh (Jan 10, 2013)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Lucky ji..
> I know many sikhs who fear their wives..


 
Could it be that they are only married for the 'married couples tax allowance' ??

But i'm sure that there are just as many unmarried sikh men that fear their mothers !!
Then, after marriage they start fearing their wives, hence the traditional troubles between 'nauh and sass' or mother in law and daughter in law !!
A personality clash of providing the fear factor arises between them.


----------



## Ishna (Jan 10, 2013)

> Tuks in question: ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.
> and, ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. To the sinners He allows not stability. Picking them up, He consigns them to the terrible hell.


 
Okay, for another twist, does the original Punjabi actually state that 'He' is the doer in these tuks? Does it say 'He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest' or does it say 'The sinners get no stability or place of rest'?

Perhaps that's where I'm getting stuck. I understand the whole Narak = distance from Guru, sinners getting no rest due to reaping what they sow ideas, but the tuks as they have been translated suggest 'God' is responsible for the results of our actions. That's what makes the tuks sound more Abrahamic I think.

Thanks


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2013)

ISHNA JI..
the STABILITY that a Guriksh wants comes form the MANN being at PEACE..and this comes form Being CONTENT...contentment..SANTOKH..MANN JEETEH...JAAG JEET...once the Mann is under control..the WORLD is at your feet...SABAR>>>>SANTOKH...
the living hell we all go through is the result of our OWN DOING..when we refuse to submit to HUKM..His will..and let our MANN do the dancing...i want THAT Girl..I want that BMW..I want that MILLION..I want that LAND..I want that BOAT...and when we DONT GET what we WANT..its HELL...or when we do get it..its "heaven" for a while until we LOSE IT..then its worse than HELL...we go through HELL when we see the neighbour getting that job we wanted..the neighbors son passing with flying colours and ours failing....the neighbour striking the lottery...gives us more PAIN in the *** than even being declared Bankrupt...

These are GHOR narak..the hells that apply in Gurmatt context...not the Abarahamic ones that Satan is President of.. Gurmatts Hells is suffered by the LIVING BODY..not the soul...


----------



## Luckysingh (Jan 10, 2013)

Very Good point and explanation Gyanji !

There is no hell that exists down below, it is all here and can be created at one's own will.
In the same way we can all become the 'Devil' at our own will or become 'Angels' if we try.
There are no devils or angels, we humans ourselves become these figures when we desire.

All parents are the guardian angels for their little kids and the ones that put the money under the pillow from the tooth fairy !


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 11, 2013)

Exactly my point Lucky ji...
i just watched a DEVIL of a policeman assaulting a lady whos carrying a young toddler on her hips..some rich woman accused her of stealing her Rs100...and thats it..everybody is judje jury and executioner..the police arrive and when the lady says she is too poor to have evn seen a RS 100 note and shows her tightly closed money knot at end of her saree which contains a few Rs 1 notes and some coins..thepoliceman asks her IF she ahs ever seen HIS MEMBER..and how would she like it shoved right inside of her right there on the road...and then slaps her left and right..shouting further obsenities..now IF thats NOT a DEVIL in human form..then i dont know the horned devil who floats about in hell ??


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2013)

I have to admit that I was not sure how to understand either the word "nakar" or the word "hell" in the translation. With just a little research, it came clear to me that the "hell" of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and even the ancient Persian religions, is not the "hell" mentioned in the tuk. It is true that "nakar" means hell, literally. However, "nakar" describes ideas of hell true in ancient India's cultures surrounding the bhagat movement and ultimately Guru Nanak. Nakar is not a place of torment after death. "Nakar" or "nakara" in Sanskrit is exactly how Gyani ji and Luckysingh ji describe it. In the here and now we attach ourselves to the torments of nakara through our passions, desire to get even, to shame others, to control others and amass power, all the while enshrining frenzy within ourselves.  We fear that we ourselves will shamed, controlled, humiliated, impoverished. And that was the hell of Guru Nanak's time when ordinary people were fixated on causing suffering to others, perhaps to make up for their own suffering at the hands of the unscrupulous and the powerful. It is still true today. Thanks Ishna ji for asking the question; otherwise I would have just glossed over what Guru Nanak meant. (We know there is no hell in Sikhi.) When we connect with our lesser nature, we find ourselves in "nakar," a world of inescapable  torment.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 11, 2013)

Beautifully said Spndamin Ji...couldnt have put it better myself.

You know in one shabad Guru Arjun ji describes How His Beloved came to him in his sleep..and it was such a pleasure that he wouldnt like to WAKE UP since it meant his beloved would go away...Then in the following tuks Guru Arjun Ji describes how sometimes his beloved comes in his wkaing hours..then Guru Ji wouldnt like to go to sleep since that would eman his beloved being separated form him...many people used to cite this shabad as CONTRADICTORY..that in one sentence Guru ji wnats to SLEEP and never wake up..and in the next he wants to stay awake and never sleep...BUT what they failed to see that it wasnt the Sleeping state or the waking state..it was the BELOVED Meeting Guru Ji that is the desire..and its CONSISTENT desire whether alive/dead/sleeping/awake whatever...These are Gurmatts concepts..and they are UNIQUE to Gurmatt ONLY..None other religions have them..in quite the same manner as Gurmatt.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 11, 2013)

Isi Abrahams God is not angry,as he has no enmity he's just annoyed with himself.


----------



## chazSingh (Jan 11, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Hmm, both translations at SriGranth give that impression. :S I give up with English translations then. There is nothing to be learned. Classical Punjabi it is then.


 
Ishan Ji,

only God exists, so He would be the the one who administers the punishment and the one who is taking the punishment 

Gurbani explains Naam as existing within all things, supporting all things. This Naam, shabad, vibration whatever you want to call it is everything.

In quantum physics they talk about the unified field...as we go deeper into matter, matter becomes non-matter and is seen as a wave function instead and is not the snooker bslls type matter/particles we were taught at school. Waves functions are the same as what thoughts are made up of, an intelligence..which exists as the root/core of all things. this common field is the intelligence which drives our whole existance. Our surface consciousness is only a small part of out complete being/ waves on the ocean...the totality of our consciousness includes this naam.

Our Ego had blocked us off from knowing our whole totality.
Simran allows us to connect back to our totality where we will understand we are all just One....one God.

I came across this short film which includes some powerful insights from a quantum physicist. When i watched the video, all i could think about is the hundreds of descriptions of naam/shabad/anhad shabad/ mentioned in gurbani 

It's Time To Wake Up - We Are All One - YouTube


Me, you, all the people on this forum, we're all One consciousness...theres only 1 consciousness at play here (God). Our Surface conciousness (ego) gives us our individuality...transcend that layer (ego) and we dip into our totality...

and when we emerge with our new found knowlege and experiece..who is there to hate, be angery with, fight with, compete with? when we are all one  and then we have peace...


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 11, 2013)

I may be wrong...



> only God exists, so He would be the the one who administers the punishment and the one who is taking the punishment
> Gurbani explains Naam as existing within all things, supporting all things. This Naam, shabad, vibration whatever you want to call it is everything.


 
We get punishment due to our own actions, in a way we are punishing our mind and body. God has given us the Free Will in that. God is not punishing us. E.g. we will go fat if we have too many chocolates. And it is true God has given us Naam, and according to Gurbani, any action without Naam brings us suffering.


----------



## chazSingh (Jan 11, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I may be wrong...
> 
> 
> 
> We get punishment due to our own actions, in a way we are punishing our mind and body. God has given us the Free Will in that. God is not punishing us. E.g. we will go fat if we have too many chocolates. And it is true God has given us Naam, and according to Gurbani, any action without Naam brings us suffering.


 
Yes, we will go fat if we eat too much chocolate...but where does the impulse come from? it comes from our state of mind...what our subconscious contains...the computer within us that has been gathering data all our lives...it send countless thoughts into our head, and we act upon some of them. How much free will do we really have then?

in my opinion and experience...we can only have true free will if we overcome our mind and vices....through simran and seva. until then we are grabbed by the hair and dragged in many directions due to the filth collected in our minds.

i used to drink a lot of alcohol...so many times i said "this is my last drink" from tomorow i will make an extra effort to not drink"...but then the following day i fall pray to my thoughts that "want to have a drink" even though i knew i shouldnt  how much free will was that?
We will continue to make the same mistakes over and over until the shabad within us cleans our subconsious mind of these habits and thoughts.

our only Sin is that we dont make effort to combat the vices through Amrit vela Simran and Seva...again our minds will make excuses for us (just like it does to me).

If we make this effort, we'll experience a freedom like no other...a true 100% free will. i'm sure of it.

God Bless.


----------



## Ishna (Jan 11, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I may be wrong...
> 
> 
> 
> We get punishment due to our own actions, in a way we are punishing our mind and body. God has given us the Free Will in that. God is not punishing us. E.g. we will go fat if we have too many chocolates. And it is true God has given us Naam, and according to Gurbani, any action without Naam brings us suffering.


 
Thanks again everyone for all your efforts and perseverence with my perseverating brain.

Kanwaljit ji, the translation of the tuks I posted earlier say God punishes the sinners.  Does the original Punjabi say that too?  If so, how can you say God doesn't punish us?

That's pretty much the crux of the issue for me.

Thanks


----------



## Luckysingh (Jan 11, 2013)

The real point for me is that God doesn't punish me !!
You see, I am such a low life that his sinned so much and got away with it, that somehow I slipped through the God-punishment net !
I deserve a lot of punishment from God for all my wrongs, but I have had it too easy.
I wish I could just be punished as I go along instead of feeling it in one blow sometime later!

Oh Lord, please amend my wrongs with the appropriate punishment so that I can continue with a clearer conscience towards being a gurmukh !


----------



## Ishna (Jan 11, 2013)

The torment of your weighted conscience IS your punishment.


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks Ishna ji for starting a thought provoking thread.  Many a great contributions by so many.  If I may share some of my understanding the way I see it.

  Ishna ji the Punjabi interpretation is generally verbatim translated into English by Dr. Sant Singh ji Khalsa based on Manmohan Singh ji's work.  Great and very commendable effort indeed by Dr. Khalsa.

  In general in trying to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and specific Gurbani segments I keep the following in focus always,


There      forever will be a different understanding of each word, pangti/line or      stanza in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as understood by anyone to their own level of experience      and personal intellect.
Sometimes       the best understanding probably is gotten by those who appear to be       addressed the most by Guru ji in the writing.
Each       word is addressed with some vision of a belief or people so believing in       Guru ji’s mind.

*IMPACT:*  If you already are in general agreement with what Guru ji states then it really was not addressed to you in particular.  Over time one may change and in divergence or convergence with Guru ji start to get better understanding so even one’s own understanding would change over time.​
Guru      ji have enormously used metaphorics, talked or referred to beliefs held by      people, and the like.  Guru ji use      this teaching technique to illustrate, to provide a landscape for learning.       You can see a single rose on a plant      in a garden, or you can see the plant and the rose as part of the garden      and so on.  The mosaic at times is      what Guru ji elude to versus the weeds and roses.  So at times in literal translations and      near so one gets caught in the weeds versus learning or in other ways, “not      seeing the forest from the trees”.
I       find it fundamental in understanding any paurees/segments or shabads that       one try to elicit the essence for one self of the composition segment as       a whole.

*IMPACT:*  From what I have come across, Prof. Sahib Singh ji is the only one who has taken or exercised this style even though structurally he does not do so in highlighting this element or writing it separately for each shabad.  But within his vyakhia/discoursing he pays much attention to key messaging of all shabads.​Ishna ji unfortunately without using Punjabi it will be quite difficult to mine this brilliance of his and a great gift to Sikhism that he has provided.​
I also      find it a great help that you pose in your mind sitting in front of the      Guru ji’s as they carry out a discourse or vyakhia of the poetic      composition you are trying to understand.   Act dumb and ask Guru ji questions in      make belief without preconception.  I find it a wonderful way to connect with      any part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that I try to understand.
*IMPACT:*  If you have experienced great teachers in your education and otherwise, you will find it easy to relate to.  True teachers excite and let you develop the understanding based on the teaching.  So it becomes dangerous when instead of taking Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a great teacher we start treating it as a simple text book of facts and figures.​The real impact is developing the understanding thereof and not memorizing the lines and dissecting these for literal meanings.

  I will attempt to take some of the translations eluded to by Ishna ji at the beginning of this thread and provide or share my understanding based on above approach in the near future.

  Sat Sri Akal.  mundahugkudihugkaurhug


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 14, 2013)

Here for comparison my understanding in part of what Ishna ji eluded to at thread start which is,


> SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord—take that body and burn it. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Forgetting the Primal Lord, O Nanak, people are born and die, over and over again. Mistaking it for musk, they have fallen into the stinking pit of filth. || 2 || *PAUREE: Meditate on that Name of the Lord, O my mind, whose Command rules over all. Chant that Name of the Lord, O my mind, which will save you at the very last moment. Chant that Name of the Lord, O my mind, which shall drive out all hunger and desire from your mind. Very fortunate and blessed is that Gurmukh who chants the Naam; it shall bring all slanderers and wicked enemies to fall at his feet. O Nanak, worship and adore the Naam, the Greatest Name of all, before which all come and bow.* || 15 ||


The above per Dr. Sant Singh ji Khalsa and the following my understanding of the Gurbani based on a review personally and taking cue from Prof. Sahib Singh ji,


> ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੨ ॥
> सलोक मः २ ॥
> Salok mėhlā 2.
> Shalok, Second Mehl:
> ...


 *ESSENCE:  *Guru Angad Dev ji state that the recognition of the creator by body and mind is essential as there being nothing of worth without it.


Next part, 



> ਮਃ੫
> मः ५ ॥
> Mėhlā 5.
> Fifth Mehl:
> ...


 *ESSENCE:  *Guruji state that the wandering in living continues as if in a mirage stuck in make believe to be something that one is not.

Next part,


> ਪਉੜੀ
> पउड़ी ॥
> Pa▫oṛī.
> Pauree:
> ...


 *ESSENCE:  *Guruji espouse the one creator and higher of all wisdom in knowing such.  Guruji state that that such seeking and understanding of one creator is core wisdom that surpasses all else for the fortunate that so look up to it. 

So my understanding from the above is that Guru ji impress upon the value to be linked in living to the wisdom of the creator.  Guru ji so strongly encourage us to be focused, seeking and understanding of the wisdom of the one creator so that our living (Gurmukh/one looking up towards the creator's wisdom) is all in consonance, fruitful and worthwhile.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:  *Happy birthday to Gyani Jarnail Singh ji.  May health and happiness prevail in force with every year to come.


----------

