# Are We Making Lame Excuses?



## tony (Oct 14, 2009)

Harbansj24 ji
In responce to your answer to why girls are dropping the name Kaur and not wanting men with turbans. From the few that i know their reasons are not for what you have said it is because they associate the title and turban as symbols of opression. They fear that the majority of Sikh men are stuck in the indian culture of oppressing females and see the shaven man as having a more westernised view of females. The few that i know where brought up in a traditional Sikh household and watched there brothers going out at night, engouraged to do well at school going on to higher education, allowed to borrow daddies big car to flash at the girls, allowed designer clothes, and they think if bro can then why cant they. As to my own wife her reasons are the same as above, she was supposed to marry a Sikh man who is now an extremely successful business man, Doing far better than myself, yet she says her life is far richer for the freedom she has, the women who did marry him never seems to smile even though they have all the money and comforts a women could wish for. She is suffering from depression and is in a high risk catorgary of suicide, as reported to her doctor where my wife works. My wife also thinks that Sikh men do look very Grand with a turban on just wishes they would treat there princess's like princess. 
Tony 
P.S.  a note to all there is no need to refer to shaven men as clean or dirty, just shaven will do, that way know one is offended, Thank you.


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## harbansj24 (Oct 14, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

Tony ji,

I think there is a vast cultural difference in the Desis and the diaspora. So I sometimes find it difficult to connect. Here in India we have all sorts. It is difficult to label.


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## harbansj24 (Oct 14, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

Good thoughts Simpy ji. Of co{censored} you are Sikh by choice and not birth. But if you proclaim yourself to be Sikh then IMHO you have to act as our Gurus intended us to. Otherwise one is absolutely free to choose his/her way of life.

As I have said in my post yes we should counsel but if a person is not impressed then we let him be and that does not mean we discard or disown.


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## kds1980 (Oct 14, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



tony said:


> Harbansj24 ji
> In responce to your answer to why girls are dropping the name Kaur and not wanting men with turbans. From the few that i know their reasons are not for what you have said it is because they associate the title and turban as symbols of opression. They fear that the majority of Sikh men are stuck in the indian culture of oppressing females and see the shaven man as having a more westernised view of females. The few that i know where brought up in a traditional Sikh household and watched there brothers going out at night, engouraged to do well at school going on to higher education, allowed to borrow daddies big car to flash at the girls, allowed designer clothes, and they think if bro can then why cant they. As to my own wife her reasons are the same as above, she was supposed to marry a Sikh man who is now an extremely successful business man, Doing far better than myself, yet she says her life is far richer for the freedom she has, the women who did marry him never seems to smile even though they have all the money and comforts a women could wish for. She is suffering from depression and is in a high risk catorgary of suicide, as reported to her doctor where my wife works. My wife also thinks that Sikh men do look very Grand with a turban on just wishes they would treat there princess's like princess.
> Tony
> P.S.  a note to all there is no need to refer to shaven men as clean or dirty, just shaven will do, that way know one is offended, Thank you.




Dear tony

Its funny How you are painting turbanned sikhs with same brush.By ur assumptions all sikhs are rich and have big cars and they give to their boys.
I am from family where women were always respected and infact in both side's of my family they have quite dominant position.My Cousin sister was loved more than by her brother but Does that mean She is religous or find turbanned sikh men attractive The answer is no.Infact once privately she told me that she hardly found turbanned sikh attractive.

Also i am sorry to say but many times you go by the personnal experiances of Your wife's side.Let me tell you that in sikhism there many communities Like jatts.tarkhan khatri's etc and even between them you will find many things which are very different.Also within communtties people are different.
And don't think that all Indian females are oppressed.their are many women who keep their husbands under their thumb.

Btw You have written one case now let me write one.When I was living in south delhi in the house where i have grown up.We had  Punjabi hindu neighbours which were quarrelsome and not at all good people.One of their younger son who was becoming doctor had a love marriage with beautiful sikh Girl who was also a doctor.I still remember that once that guy had an accident and my grandmother went to visit her and was impressed how nice that girl was.But still Their marriage lasted for just 10 years because the guy was a womaniser and we too had  heard cases about him.even still I hear that
from my relatives which are living their that he bring call girls.

So does that mean that all clean shaven guys are like this or punjabi hindu's are like this the answer is no.In your case You have written that the wife of some turbanned sikh guy is depressed .Again I am sorry to say but Its their personal matter there are many reasons for depression It does not mean
that turbanned guy is bad


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## tony (Oct 15, 2009)

Karwandeep ji 
I wasnt trying to paint all Turbaned Sikhs with the same brush, Just stating the reasons given to me by the Kaurs that I know, Reasons why they have chosen shaven men. Traditional dress to them means traditional behaviour. I know many good turbaned Sikhs in fact all of the Sikhs I know are good decent men who treat their wifes with much respect, but this doesnt change the fact why those Kaurs who chose shaven men did so. Its their reason. As for the one with depression, her reason stated was neglect and bullying, She darent leave him because of the shame it would bring on her family. Honour is hardly a reason to suffer a life of abuse is it, At least if your family are behind you, you have a way out, some one to turn too for help, but unfortunately if she decided to leave him she would be disowned and all alone with no help. You can tell as many flip stories as you like but it wont help these people male or female, it wont change any ones life or end their suffering. Change is wants needed not justification
Sorry if I offend anyone just personal experiences being told
Tony


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## kds1980 (Oct 15, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



tony said:


> Karwandeep ji
> I wasnt trying to paint all Turbaned Sikhs with the same brush, Just stating the reasons given to me by the Kaurs that I know, Reasons why they have chosen shaven men. Traditional dress to them means traditional behaviour. I know many good turbaned Sikhs in fact all of the Sikhs I know are good decent men who treat their wifes with much respect, but this doesnt change the fact why those Kaurs who chose shaven men did so. Its their reason. As for the one with depression, her reason stated was neglect and bullying, She darent leave him because of the shame it would bring on her family. Honour is hardly a reason to suffer a life of abuse is it, At least if your family are behind you, you have a way out, some one to turn too for help, but unfortunately if she decided to leave him she would be disowned and all alone with no help. You can tell as many flip stories as you like but it wont help these people male or female, it wont change any ones life or end their suffering. Change is wants needed not justification
> Sorry if I offend anyone just personal experiences being told
> Tony




Again I am sorry to say but kaurs that are saying this are giving lame excuse.
many  times we justify our actions by giving excuses and there are not 1 but million excuses available when we don't want to do anything.Keeping Turban and beard also show committment to faith infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.


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## harbansj24 (Oct 15, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



> infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.


Kanwardeep ji,

I wouldn't that this is true all the time; but yes it is true most of the time.


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## kds1980 (Oct 15, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



harbansj24 said:


> Kanwardeep ji,
> 
> I wouldn't that this is true all the time; but yes it is true most of the time.



I agree with you That it is true not all the time .after reading tony ji's post I was surprised ,sad and even angry at women who spread these Type of rumours Just to justify their action.I don't think there is even 1% of truth in that Turbanned sikhs treat their wives worse than clean shaven sikh men or vice versa.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Oct 15, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

I think there is an unfortunate, but perhaps unavoidable, tendency to generalise.  

Mani was most definitely a turbaned  Sikh, and I couldn't have asked for a better husband, partner, friend.  I really can't say about others.  I rather imagine that Sikh husbands, turbaned or not, conform to Mai's Law:  10% are really good, 10% are really bad, and the others are in between just doing the best they know how.   (The same would be true, of course, about Sikh wives.) 

Most of us, myself included,  really do kind of muddle through life, handling things as best we can when they come up.  Taking a Hukamnama is really helpful with this.  I'd like to think we Sikhs do better than the average - after all, we have Naam and Guru ji and all the rest - but I don't think we do.  Sorry.

:ice:


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## tony (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

Kanwardeep ji
They arent just lame excuses. Just because they chose to try to make something of their lives doesnt mean they turned their backs on Sikhism, Its the other way round its the Sikh families and the Sikh community that turn their backs on the Girls/Boys. Because they see turbans as cultural and associate culture with restriction it must have some grounding somewhere. They dont just wake up and decide its not for me. Some thing over a long period of time sets these people against there own culture. And just because its the norm doesnt make it right. Sikh women all over the world are suffering in loveless marriages, Being told its their duty to make them work or the shame it will bring on their families. How much Shame did Guru Nanak ji bring on his Family when he refused that thread, Did he care what any one thought of him, The founder of Sikhism, the founder of true equality, The founder of freedom of choice and still we Sikhs havent got the message. The SHAME it bring on Sikhism. Sorry but the culture has no place in Sikhi.
May be if the traditional Sikhs where more tolerant and display an image of equality and freedom then more of our children would keep the sikh faith, more boys wearing turbans, less Girls cutting their hair. Let the turban become a symbol of freedom not restriction. 
Tony


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## kds1980 (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



> Kanwardeep ji
> They arent just lame excuses. Just because they chose to try to make something of their lives doesnt mean they turned their backs on Sikhism, Its the other way round its the Sikh families and the Sikh community that turn their backs on the Girls/Boys



How can you say that these are not lame excuses.I was born and raised in Punjabi family and I very well know nature of punjabi people.To justify their actions people can say anything and blame anything.Show me the proof that turbanned sikh husbands are worse than clean shaven or ask women who spread these rumours.



> Because they see turbans as cultural and associate culture with restriction it must have some grounding somewhere. They dont just wake up and decide its not for me. Some thing over a long period of time sets these people against there own culture. And just because its the norm doesnt make it right. Sikh women all over the world are suffering in loveless marriages, Being told its their duty to make them work or the shame it will bring on their families. How much Shame did Guru Nanak ji bring on his Family when he refused that thread,



Tony ji I am sorry but I think you don't understand Human nature.Minorities always have strong desire to fit in.When a sikh girl grow up she see's in bollywood,hollywood serials etc heroes as clean shaven youths obviously this impact lots on her mentality so like their non sikh friends some of them too could desire to have marriage with clean shaven man.And to justify this they can easily say this excuse that turbaned sikh husbands do not treat their wives well.

Also is it not true that majority of women of world irrespective of religion do not like facial hair on men?



> How much Shame did Guru Nanak ji bring on his Family when he refused that thread, Did he care what any one thought of him, The founder of Sikhism, the founder of true equality, The founder of freedom of choice and still we Sikhs havent got the message. The SHAME it bring on Sikhism. Sorry but the culture has no place in Sikhi.



Please do not bring Guru's into discussion anyone can justify his /her actions by bringing lives of guru's


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## harbansj24 (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

Yes, Where is the comparison? Guru Nanak ji sacrificed  for mankind.
What good are these so called "rebels" doing for any group or cause save their own selfish interests?
And yes, anybody is free to walk away from Sikhi, but if one chooses to call himself/herself a Sikh, then obviously he has to follow some accepted norms of being a Sikh.


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## tony (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

Kanwardeep ji
No one has said they are worse than others, they just want the right to choose their live partners, nor have i said the majority of ladies dont like facial hair, but if you want prove that abuse is rife in asian cultures including Sikhi then have a look at the threads breaking the silence around punjabi women and womens empowerment on this forum. On the womens empowerment one take a look at the list of agencies just in the U.S of support, if it wasnt rife why are they so busy. Sikhs are supposed to be better than the rest, not adopt an attitude of well were no worse. What was the point of saving our females from the muslims if your just going to enslave them as they would.
harbansj24 ji 
An example of what one of these so called rebels is doing for any group would be Jasvinder Sanghera, Helping to save women who are being abused by men and vice versa, What have you done to help others on that scale, Who said these girls have turned there back on Sikhi think you will find its the other way round ,Sikhs turned their backs on these girls. Accepted norms whose accepted norms, none written for any one to see in our religious scriptures. in the eyes of god were all equal with or without turban exterior doesnt matter, thats written. Where does it say that an arrange marriage is the norm where does it say its ok to abuse your partner, where does it say you cant have a love marriage, tell where have these girls or men gone wrong in the SGGS, Whos to say that the hair cutters arent the ones following the right path. To please God follow the SGGS thats whats required of a Sikh, The rest is just show and why should they prove what they are doing is right when you cant prove what your doing is right.
Why not use Guru jis lives as examples I thought thats why they behaved that way, to set an example.
Defending the abuse is what your doing in a thread to promote Kaur power. The majority of Sikhs in England are realising that women have the right to choose and granting it. their daughters are still marrying other Sikhs but for love not because they are forced to for Honour
Tony


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## harbansj24 (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*

Tony ji,

What I am or I am not doing is not necessary to elaborate here. Neither has anybody asked you what you are doing. Neither is it  anybody's contention that it is the sole monopoly of Keshdharis only to do good or that Keshdharis do not abuse women. You know and I know that such statements are absurd. For every Jasvinder that you cite, you know and I know several Kaur or Singh examples can be given

The whole thing started with the title Kaur Power. As the title implies, Kaur implies women who retain the name Kaur. Otherwise the title could as well have been women power, then all these questions would not have arisen.

Now coming to the point that where is it written that Sikhs need to keep kesh? Are you suggesting that one fine morning without any rhyme or reason some Sikhs got together and decided to keep kesh and imposed their will on unwilling people?

You must be knowing that Punjab and Haryana High Court had ruled a few months back that as far as the Govt work is concerned only Keshdharis are considered as Sikhs. The Supreme Court did not find any cause to interfere with the judgment.

I repeat, it is not a question that if you do not have kesh you cannot do good. The question is that if you do not keep kesh are you entitled to be called a Sikh.

Lets put it this way, that if you want to do good and you also want to be called a Sikh, then why not keep Kesh? What are the barriers? what forces you not to keep kesh especially when the highest legal authority has given a ruling?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



harbansj24 said:


> Good thoughts Simpy ji. Of co{censored} you are Sikh by choice and not birth. But if you proclaim yourself to be Sikh then IMHO you have to act as our Gurus intended us to. Otherwise one is absolutely free to choose his/her way of life.
> 
> As I have said in my post yes we should counsel but if a person is not impressed then we let him be and that does not mean we discard or disown.




I feel the need to point out that no one is really Sikh "by birth."  If we are Sikh, it is by choice.  Some of us were blessed to be born in Sikh families and some Guru ji called from other communities, but in any case, it is a choice.

:ice:


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Oct 16, 2009)

As for keeping kesh or not keeping kesh, that is a personal decision.  

I have noticed, however, that I rarely make excuses for actions I feel good about.  Excuses are usually made when I feel guilty or defensive.  

When I do something I feel good about, I don't much care what others think. 

But maybe that's just me.

:ice:


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## Astroboy (Oct 16, 2009)

> Karwandeep ji
> I wasnt trying to paint all Turbaned Sikhs with the same brush, Just stating the reasons given to me by the Kaurs that I know, Reasons why they have chosen shaven men. Traditional dress to them means traditional behaviour.


Tony Ji,

From what I understand women, the way a man dresses is not top priority. So long as he is neat, tidy and well groomed, he is fine. Women don't have a problem with his attire. What women find attractive in a man (regardless of race) is his confidence. I have had success with women of all races because I have learnt how to be a confident dude. 
If you need more info, check out Alpha Male Personality.


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## kds1980 (Oct 16, 2009)

> Kanwardeep ji
> No one has said they are worse than others, they just want the right to choose their live partners, nor have i said the majority of ladies dont like facial hair, but if you want prove that abuse is rife in asian cultures including Sikhi then have a look at the threads breaking the silence around punjabi women and womens empowerment on this forum. On the womens empowerment one take a look at the list of agencies just in the U.S of support, if it wasnt rife why are they so busy. Sikhs are supposed to be better than the rest, not adopt an attitude of well were no worse. What was the point of saving our females from the muslims if your just going to enslave them as they would.



Tony ji

All this discussion between you and me started with point that some women are saying that Clean shaven sikh men give more freedom to wives than turbaned sikhs which is lame excuse.

There is no discussion about whether there is abuse of women or not in sikh community
There is abuse and it is wrong and not at all justified whetehr you are turbaned or not.
The proof i have demanded is that is their any study or anything that prove this point that turbaned sikh men are worse husbands than clean shaven sikh men.

Btw in UK there are cases of sikh girls marrying to muslims and converting to islam now are you going to say that islam gives more freedom to women


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 16, 2009)

Guru Nanak ji refusing to wear the Janeau..and a Kaur refusing to use her name or refusing to marry a dastar dharee sikh are Galaxies apart.

I have no idea how the dastaar is a sign of repression...maybe i am in a world of my own.It was the Indians who were repressed for a thousand years...no turbans,( a nanga head/uncovered head is a sign of slavery/sadness/bad news etc...in the olden days if anyone came home with head unocvered everyone knew it was bad news..some death or soemthing)..no weapons..no horses..not even a donkey...and Guru Gobind Singh made it mandatory for His SIKHS to wear dastaar, ride a horse, have weapons. NONE of the Indians amde any moves to "fight" this oppression..1000 years of slavery..it had to wait for GURU NANAK and his refusal to wear the JANEAU to sound the horn for FREEDOM.

A Lame Excuse remains a lame excuse even if couched in flowery language. The truth is there is FREEDOM to choose. Some choose to wear dastaars and wear the Honour of Kaur/Singh proudly..others DONT. OK. whats the problem ?? Just click on to WHY I CHOSE SIKHISM dot com..and read all about those who wear dastars and wear Kaurs proudly....perhaps the others need to have a website..WHY I DONT CHOSE SIKHISM...and dont wear dastaar/Kaur in my name...


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## tony (Oct 19, 2009)

Kanwardeep ji 
I gave you the reasons why those kaurs chose clean shaven men. Seems its hard for you to understand, I'll explain it other way. If when you are growing up a dog of a particular breed is aggressive towards you and bites you, when you are old enough to get your own would you go out and buy a dog of that breed or would you get yourself a dog of what appears to be a less aggressive breed. Doesnt mean that the dog of your choose isnt going to bite you. These girls grew up in a traditional family enviroment and their experiences where they were treated less favourably to there brothers, none where subject to physical abuse but all where subject to mental abuse, pressure was put on them to conform to the old ways of the girl doing her duties. threats of disownment, not being allowed out of the house without a brother with them. they watched there older sisters in loveless marriages being disrespected, they chose not to follow them and because of their choice they where disowned. they didnt disown their families it was the families that disowned them, they didnt disown Sikhi, It was the Sikhs who disowned the girls, name calling, old friends not being allowed to talk to them, sisters not even acknowledging them in the streets. darent go to the Gudwara because of the gossiping about them. They didnt do anything anti-Sikh, Yet Sikhs refuse to acknowledge them. 
Gyani ji
quite agree it was Guru Nanak ji who souned the horn of freedom, but has it been another 500 years and still women arent treated as full equals in Sikhi, Explain where the pride in wearing a turban/Singh/ Kaur is in that please, I chose Sikhi as an individual spiritual journey, not to look good, not because I had a identity crisis or needed to belong to a particular group, My journey is purely for spiritual reasons, My appearance has nothing to do with my spirituallity. Appearances are deceptive. When I chose Sikhi it was to learn how to conduct my life in accordance with Gods will. When  I read the SGGS it mentioned nothing of a certain type of attire in fact quite the opposite it clearly states that it has nothing to do with spirituallity. Through the SGGS I have learnt to treat all as equals, reguardless of caste, race, sex or appearance, Turban wearers or not all are the same in the eyes of God, Yet since joining this forum and in the big wide world out side of it, it has become apparent that I'm judged along with all the other haircutters as less of a Sikh than the hair growers, It is assumed that I'm further back along the trail than others because my hair is short and my head is with out a turban. I'm honourless, my appearance is lacking identity, no knows what i am, what religion I follow. No one that is except God, He knows if I'm pure of heart and thought, He and only he matters when it comes to judging me, I only care what he thinks of me. Why dont I have hair/ wear turban/ have Singh as my name its probably because of the fear of becoming like yourself and others like you, Judgmental, I'd probably become so proud of my appearance that I would forget why I was a Sikh and start insulting others who havent got long hair, I'd become like the Singh at the shop and not want to speak to myself, 
The reasons for my lack of hair and the reasons given for the girls are valid provable reasons for our choices that we have made, Mine is sustainable and stated in the SGGS, appearance not required for spirituallity, theirs is proven in the fact that they are disowned. So whats your LAME EXCUSE for why you judge us for not having the same appearance as yourself, for saying we have no Honour or pride, Whats the LAME EXCUSE for the girls families disowning them for not wanting to be in a loveless marriage, for the honourable Sikhs who gossip about them at the Gudwara. Whos got the LAME unprovable EXCUSES, Who really wears the label of SHAME. I eagerly await your responces as lame as they might be 
Tony


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## Sikh royalist (Oct 19, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



Kanwardeep Singh said:


> .
> Keeping Turban and beard also show committment to faith infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.


 
dear brother kanwardeep singh,

well this is a common thinking which people have developed over time i know a lot of people coming from amritdhari families who are sardars but they smoke(some of them),drink and love visiting courtesan's which i don't understand. they are good bcz they are sardars and we clean shaven who read and listen gurbani are "patit" they are the gem of community and we are the bad face by which law i will never understand.


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2009)

> Kanwardeep ji
> I gave you the reasons why those kaurs chose clean shaven men. Seems its hard for you to understand, I'll explain it other way. If when you are growing up a dog of a particular breed is aggressive towards you and bites you, when you are old enough to get your own would you go out and buy a dog of that breed or would you get yourself a dog of what appears to be a less aggressive breed. Doesnt mean that the dog of your choose isnt going to bite you. These girls grew up in a traditional family enviroment and their experiences where they were treated less favourably to there brothers, none where subject to physical abuse but all where subject to mental abuse, pressure was put on them to conform to the old ways of the girl doing her duties. threats of disownment, not being allowed out of the house without a brother with them. they watched there older sisters in loveless marriages being disrespected, they chose not to follow them and because of their choice they where disowned. they didnt disown their families it was the families that disowned them, they didnt disown Sikhi, It was the Sikhs who disowned the girls, name calling, old friends not being allowed to talk to them, sisters not even acknowledging them in the streets. darent go to the Gudwara because of the gossiping about them. They didnt do anything anti-Sikh, Yet Sikhs refuse to acknowledge them.



Tony ji

I do understand your point.The large number of sikh families in US,UK and canada are clean shaven and whatever oppression you have written happen in their families so if a sikh girl irrespective of whether wearing turban or not refuses to marry a punjabi sikh boy then I can understand but how could it be justified that a girl that is oppressed in clean shaven sikh family refuse's to marry a turbaned sikh boy but not clean shaven  punjabi sikh boy.


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2009)

*Re: Kaur Power*



Sikh royalist said:


> dear brother kanwardeep singh,
> 
> well this is a common thinking which people have developed over time i know a lot of people coming from amritdhari families who are sardars but they smoke(some of them),drink and love visiting courtesan's which i don't understand. they are good bcz they are sardars and we clean shaven who read and listen gurbani are "patit" they are the gem of community and we are the bad face by which law i will never understand.



No one is saying that those sardars are gem .In many families the social pressure on sikh boys to wear turban is killing so they can't discard their turbans.One need to be extremely rebelious in these type of families to discard it.


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## tony (Oct 19, 2009)

Kanwardeep ji
will answer very quickly for now as got to leave for work. simply put they didnt marry clean shaven panjabi boy , they went for white boys, 
Tony


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2009)

tony said:


> Kanwardeep ji
> will answer very quickly for now as got to leave for work. simply put they didnt marry clean shaven panjabi boy , they went for white boys,
> Tony



Well I heard this that many asian girls marry white boys for this reason and if the reason is genuine then Its ok but the discussion is about rejection of turbaned sikh boys for sole reason because they wear turban by  some sikh girls.


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2009)

Btw tony ji here is the one thought provoking ariticle

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly...opinion/opedcolumnists/melting_not_159550.htm

MELTING NOT 

By RAAKHEE MIRCHANDANI 


March 14, 2009 -- 

Growing up, the man in my dreams was a mystery; he was white, he was tall, he was dark, he was slick. He was always handsome. In my fantasy it didn't matter if he was Catholic or Muslim, European or African, if he ate pigs or worshipped monkeys. It didn't matter if he understood that I came from a rich tradition of Indian Hindus who were strict vegetarians, quietly conservative, obsessively dedicated to family and maniacal in their love for cheesy song-and-dance movies with mediocre acting and music.

And so when we met, freshman year at Boston University - the street smart Eastern European with a gorgeous smile, big heart and wicked sense of humor and the artsy Indian girl with a penchant for big hair, Bollywood and Biggie -it seemed like the perfect cross-continental match.

But somewhere along our six years together, the Indian girl from Jersey, who had naively promised him Catholic children, steak dinners and consistently defended his refusal to hang with my family as a simple difference in opinion, had a change of heart. And he did, too.

I remember him looking at me on an evening not far from our last and saying, "It's like all of a sudden you became Indian." In a way so quiet I didn't even realize it was happening, the brown from my skin must have seeped in and colored my heart.

*Surprisingly, I'm not the only one. While the rate of intermarriage among races increased over the past half-century, the last decade has seen a reversal - particularly among Asians and Latinos. According to a Ohio State University study, from 1990-2000 the number of Hispanics marrying outside their race fell from 27% to 20%, while Asian intermarriage dropped from 42% to 33%.*

After brushing it off for so long, many of my relatives and friends are listening to that nagging voice in our collective heads. You know, the one that sounds like a hybrid of your mom/dad/grandparent/aunt/uncle/neighbor-in-the-old-country telling you in heavily accented English, "Have you found anyone yet, dahling? Can we introduce you to Mr. Kapoor's son? He is doctor. Ven vill you finally give us good news?" Despite my better efforts to buck the traditional Indian girl inside me - glossy black locks turned to bleached blond in a weak moment of teen angst; pre-med was never an undergraduate option and much to my parents chagrin; I have always favored copious amounts of worthless costume jewels over precious museum-grade family heirlooms - I discovered that I'm not really that much of a rebel after all.

During the Obama campaign, commentators asked if younger people were growing up in a colorblind society. I certainly hope it's a more tolerant one - but not blind. Living in harmony doesn't mean camouflaging our differences, or denying that we have any. And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship - love in whatever way it comes is flawless - I know that I could never do it again.

Relationships are hard enough, no matter who you love. Maintaining and sustaining them requires a combination of courage, compromise and dedication. But there's a comfort in building a solid foundation with someone who comes from a similar place. I don't want to have to explain the minutia of my complex culture, hoping for both understanding and approval. I want to begin on equal footing, roots already firmly planted in a common garden.

I'm the kind of girl who is as comfortable worshipping multi-armed deities as she is worshipping at Chanel. The kind who can easily wrap herself in to a 5-yard sari in a public bathroom but much prefers Uggs and leggings. Certainly the kind who washes down a spicy curry with a glass of Johnny on the rocks. That makes me Indian and American, and the truth is, it's easier when someone understands the first part of that as much as the latter.

So now I've taken the UPS approach to dating: What can brown do for me?

More than I ever thought.

My current boyfriend, Agan, is the kind of Punjabi prince dreams are made of. He held me last year when Bombay burned and I broke. He high-fived me when "Slumdog" took home eight golden trophies and I squealed. He rolls his eyes when I talk about Yankee Stadium like it's The Bronx version of the Golden Temple. He's from the left (wrong) coast, you see; not everything can be Disney fairytales.

But he understands without questioning that I will live at home with my parents until I get married. That family obligations trump any evening plans we may have made. Without my suggesting it, he mentioned that when we grew up and had a house of our own, there would be room for both sets of parents, his and mine. I was enamored.

In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.

In less than a year he has earned his way into my parents' hearts, fielding near daily text messages and e-mails from my mother, approving but curious glances from my father and even joining my brother in a weekly basketball league. It's as if they already knew each other. And in a way they did.

Despite the countries we share, we are still different. His family is Sikh. He wears a turban. Mine are Hindu and we don't accessorize. But the fundamentals are the same; family first and everything else next.

As usual my parents were right, bless their darling immigrant hearts. It turns out I am both New Delhi and New Jersey, and the man in my dreams finally has a face to reflect that.

Raakhee Mirchandani is a features reporter for The Post.







Rakhee with her Boyfriend


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 20, 2009)

Tony Ji..
The topic has been covered umpteen times by your good self and Grewal sahib.
There are almost NO "threads" or posters who say or Quote Gurbani One liners to justify keeping KESH..quite on the opposite side some have made it a Life time Cross to bear..they write and keep on writing abstracts after abstracts of ONE LINERS to somehow justify their own lack of Kesh.( BTW Sikhi has no Crosses to carry.But soem go out of their way to find one..in this case how to justify that Guru nanak- and His successors..and all the Bhagats, Sheikhs etc in SGGS... ji didnt keep long hair and never wore dastaar ...and they spend a life time looking for "one liner Gurbani Tuks" to twist them around...sooner than later people find the truth...)
The SGGS DOESNT SAY no kesh required for spirituality..thats a GRoss Misrepresentation/twisting of Gurbani. One can  bring in the HAIR/KESH question under different threads..its still the same Lame Blame Game....no one is forcing anyone to keep kesh..or kaur..or singh..or being called anything...its ones own self "trying" to justify to others..or ones self..The SGGS you are reading must be made up of one liners quoted in the Abstracts...becasue the one I know and read daily has no such thing.
So essentially we are comparing Apples with Oranges..so there is no contest. You are perfectly welcome to whatever "sutainable" reasons you have.Period.
Regards:happykaur:


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 20, 2009)

Tony ji,

Guru Fateh.

I hope you remember that you and I have had the same discussions on our many PM's exchanges and in your last PM to me regarding the subject, you said you understood what I meant and the importance of Kesh.

It seems, you have forgotten our interaction. 

Let me repeat the saying again which I have done several times before in this forum as it deserves repeating," Good actions need no reasons where as bad actions require a lot of justifications".

No one has told you not to read the SGGS, our ONLY GURU till you keep hair. No one has told you not to go to the Gurdwara and enjoy the Keertan and Langer because you do not keep hair. No one has asked you to give up your Sikh wife because of the same reason. 

So, please STOP keep on justifying about why you do not keep hair and find reasons within what the true meaning of love is.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## tony (Oct 20, 2009)

Tejwant ji
I have forgotten nothing, Ive only reiterated my own personal reason for not havng hair, My own children both keep their hair, its their choice, I didnt even bring it up nor was my original post anything to do with hair, it was in Kaur power and I was giving examples of why certain girls have chosen to go against their family wish of an arranged marriage, I was speaking out against the cruelty they suffered as a result, I'm then told that they are just lame excuses when in actual fact they are real problems within the Sikh community. I havent said that abuse doesnt happen in England in other communities, it does, Difference being that over here we are trying to do something about it, its only recently that women are being treated more as equals, thing is Sikhs should have had an extra 400 yrs or so head start on us, but they choice to follow panjabi cultural ways. Sorry if it offends but these girls need no justification for their actions, if they see Sikhism as the root of the problem then its because traditional Sikhs have treated them this way. The justification or lame excuse for this treatment is from the Sikhs who believe in IZZAT. 
As for you Gyani ji please show me where I have used gurbani oneliners in my defence for no hair, I think if you look back it is your self who has twisted gurbani and used one liners in support of your Kesh, and IF SGGS does state the need for Kesh then why havent you given me the page that its on. PERIOD.
Kanwardeep ji
I'm very pleased to see the Sikh boy with the hindu girl, Ive seen several sikh men at the Gudwara with white women, there doesnt seem to be a problem that way round. Yet my wife is an outcast for marrying a white man., a shaven one at that. At the panjabi school there was alot of gossiping , when at home and her friend left to be with a white boy she says that her parents, family and the rest of the community where insulting her left right and centre. So your choice of example has only high lighted the inequality there is, Sorry if this has offended you Kanwardeep ji but there is a need to high light any inequality. 
Tony


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## harbansj24 (Oct 21, 2009)

Tony ji,

IMHO your anger is uncalled for. It happens everywhere not just among the Sikhs. If a person chooses to marry against the wishes of the parents or the community, he/she has to face a period of hostility(and has to be prepared for it) which may or not subside with time depending on the circumstances.

Unfortunately the debate on Kaur power got diverted to whether Sikhs keeping hair or cutting it  (either way) are good, bad or ugly! And who should marry or not marry them!

Just once more:


In a discussion on "Kaur power", is the surname Kaur necessary or not?
We have heard umpteen times that how lousy Sikhs wearing turban and keeping kesh can be. But we are still to get an answer on what are the barriers for a person who wants to be known as  "a good Sikh" for keeping Kesh?
:happysingh::happykaur:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 21, 2009)

Look at all the Brave Kaurs and Singhs..on....Why I chose Sikhism...they give reasonable and entilely plausible "excuses" for chosing to be Singhs/Kaurs..

A Mother Theresa..id just that..MT..she doesnt have to give "excuses..lame or otherwise...
BUT thousands of Wannabe Mother Theresas who "FAILED" will have lamest of lame excuses on why they Failed to be MT's...

Similalry the Singhs and Kaurs who follow Sikhism as it is in the SGGS faithfully and proudly hardly have to give any "excuse"a s to WHY they wear dastaar..do nitnem..have singh/kaur in their name.wear the Kirpan, Karra Kacherra...etc etc...BUT thsoe who "CANNOT or DONT WANT to..do this soemhow feel .."bad..lower..less singhly/kaurly...whatever..and these people have to Constantly manufacture "excuses"..as to why..i dont have dastaar..i dotn have singh/kaur in my name..why i have a Caste title as my tail...why i dont cary the Kirpan..why i dont wear the karra..why i dont have a kacherra..etc etc...No body asks them..BUt they still feel obliged to give their side of the story..somehow so they can unload the guilt..whatever they feel..

Just like the Mother Theresa are few and far between.so are Singhs and Kaurs who do the needful...the MINORITY is the KHALSA..the MAJORITY never was...out of thousands five stood up..out of 80,000 only 20K took Pahul that day...20 out of 80 is just 25% !! Most probably it were the remaining 75% who were busy giving lame excuses...to explain why they DIDNT take Pahul...NOT the other way around...it was always like that....NO BIG DEAL.

2. Secondly we must avopid over geenralsiation...we cannot paint all with the same brush.....all "dastaree sardars" are evil//oppress their women etc etc is just as bad as saying all shavens are Angels who carry their women on their heads....Faulty Logic..and based on thin air...i have seen plenty of shaven heads beat their wives. murder their duaghters for daring to marry outside their HUKM..alcoholics, drunks, layabouts..whatever...the "lack of facial/head hair" is no Guarantee of an angel.:happykaur:


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## Astroboy (Oct 21, 2009)

> Tony Ji,
> 
> From what I understand women, the way a man dresses is not top priority. So long as he is neat, tidy and well groomed, he is fine. Women don't have a problem with his attire. What women find attractive in a man (regardless of race) is his confidence. I have had success with women of all races because I have learnt how to be a confident dude.
> If you need more info, check out Alpha Male Personality.


Here are a few interesting links that will tell you, that women need not be the decision maker but we guys can. 
Most of the time, guys willingly give their powers away to a woman and a woman doesn't appreciate that. 
It's because from a woman's point of view, you come too easy without a challenge, and she'll dump you like the previous guy. 
What women want is a challenge, what women want is a man they can't control because that's where your rating will be high. 
So have some backbone guys and keep your turbans on wherever you go.

How to Become an Alpha Male

How to Build Unstoppable Confidence When Talking to Women


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## spnadmin (Oct 21, 2009)

:roll:


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2009)

> Kanwardeep ji
> I'm very pleased to see the Sikh boy with the hindu girl, Ive seen several sikh men at the Gudwara with white women, there doesnt seem to be a problem that way round. Yet my wife is an outcast for marrying a white man., a shaven one at that. At the panjabi school there was alot of gossiping , when at home and her friend left to be with a white boy she says that her parents, family and the rest of the community where insulting her left right and centre. So your choice of example has only high lighted the inequality there is, Sorry if this has offended you Kanwardeep ji but there is a need to high light any inequality.
> Tony



Tony ji let me explain to you point by point as this discussion is diverted

No.1 

All this discussion started when harbans ji said that there are some, sikh girls are giving advertisment of clean shaven sikh men and dropping kaur surname.The girls that do these Things do get married in punjabi sikh families with clean shaven sikh boys and they don't have problem with patriarchal culture.They only have problem with turbans and beards and that's why they specifically mention this in their matrimonial advertisement.If any girl say that she married a clean shaven sikh punjabi boy because the oppression they have seen in their family then she is making a lame excuse because their is nothing that supports this theory that clean shaven sikh punjabi boys are better husbands than turbaned punjabi sikhs
The sikh girls that get married to white men due to oppression they have seen is other issue

Point no.2

The example i have posted is to show that intermarriage in ASians have dropped and to show you that all Indian girls don't feel comfortable with white boys as It was mentioned in 
article that how she felt more comfortable with Indian guy than her previous white B/F
coincidently that boy is turbaned sikh.You are a good husband but that does not mean
all white boys are model husbands and all punjabi men are bad.

Point no.3
I am sorry for your wife is insulted by her relatives.You can say this a drawback of Indian family system.


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## tony (Oct 21, 2009)

Kanwardeep ji
I personally havent accused all Turbaned men of abuse, in my post I stated that it was their own reasons for there choice, niether have I said that all white boys are perfect husbands. All my posts in Kaur power had nothing to do with hair only the treatment these girls have recieve by there families, None of the girls have actually dropped the name Kaur my wife included. She was born a Kaur and will die a Kaur. My part in the original thread was to protest at the inequalities that still exist in Sikhism and state that it has no part in Sikhism, As for the other issues I apologise for being brought into another stupid argument over hair, I care nothing for it nor ever will, its a personal choice based I believe on your own upbringing and perception of whats required to be a good Sikh. thank you most sincerely for point 3, it means alot when someone accepts that its unfair,
take care Kanwardeep ji and may God bless you and your family
Tony
P.S. Just for Gyani ji have alook at the may june issue of the Sikh Bulleton and read the articles the significance of kes in the sikh religion and the following article defining a Sikh. Please post your views I'm very interested in them


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## Astroboy (Oct 21, 2009)

:crazy::roll::shutup::shock: For your eyes only


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## Astroboy (Oct 23, 2009)

*What do Sikh Men Look for in a Woman?*



> What women want is a challenge, what women want is a man they can't control because that's where your rating will be high.
> So have some backbone guys and keep your turbans on wherever you go.
> 
> How to Become an Alpha Male
> ...


I almost feel I'm talking to the wind because no guy is owning up that he lacks the confidence. Believe me guys, I've been there. I assumed alot of things because during my time, it was arranged marriage. So I didn't have to learn all these things. So I guess your folks didn't teach you these things either.

But that does not mean, you're NOT facing the problem by ignoring it. See, we Sardars (with Turbans) have everything going for us, but we don't value it - why ? Because we do not know we're sitting on a goldmine. Instead, we are giving up our royal rights for a can of beer and women with a life style. 

Yogi Bhajan dealt with women with life styles and transformed them to Khalsa. Question to ask - why did they give up their life style ? Wasn't it full of fun and glamour? 

It would be great to know!!


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## spnadmin (Oct 23, 2009)

I think you are right about confidence in short supply, NamJap ji. And the idea of a new thread is A1.

But why didn't you start it yourself? OK - I will do the needful. You may lack ?  :idea:


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Oct 23, 2009)

Namjap ji says



> It would be great to know (this could go to a new thread with heading) *What do Sikh men look for in a woman?  *



Would it ever!  I think this is a great idea.

I do have a slight amending suggestion.  Sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander and all that, might we include the opposite and ask,  What do Sikhs look for in a spouse?  Or would that give are good sardars too much wiggle room?

:ice:


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## Sikh royalist (Oct 25, 2009)

kanwar,
i feel that long hairs have become a good mask for some to hide behind their sinful deeds i do not intend to raise my finger at all the sardars and i am sorry if I'm insulting Sikhism but what is there in having long hairs does that makes us look like Sikh? no the Guru wanted to give us a different identity so that we may look apart in thousands and if by our personality and actions we can make ourselves look apart from millions i don't think we need to have hairs.


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## kds1980 (Oct 25, 2009)

Sikh royalist said:


> kanwar,
> i feel that long hairs have become a good mask for some to hide behind their sinful deeds i do not intend to raise my finger at all the sardars and i am sorry if I'm insulting Sikhism but what is there in having long hairs does that makes us look like Sikh? no the Guru wanted to give us a different identity so that we may look apart in thousands and if by our personality and actions we can make ourselves look apart from millions i don't think we need to have hairs.



You have a point that many people do hide.But all the sects and scholars of sikhism who have studied it deeply agree with the point that a practising sikh should keep uncut hair.So Its Your personal opinion and I don't have any problem with it.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 25, 2009)

Its not raising fingers or insulting sikhs/sardars at all...the TRUTH is always the TRUTH.
I Lament all the time about the KESHADHAREE "HINDUS"....among us..the Radhasomais, the Dera Sauda Premis, the DERAWALLAHS who wear the Full Bannas and carry three foot kirpans BUT are followers of the Particular SANT JI/Waddeh baba Ji/Maharaj Ji/Satguru Ji...Dhadrianwalleh Ji...Rarewalleh Ji...Barru sahib walleh ji..etc etc..or the NEO-BRAHMINS ....so many hiidng behind long hair and banna but NOT Following the GURBANI in Spirit and Intention..only as a Ritualised behaviour.:happysingh:
BUT Dont Blame "long hair/Kesh/Banna/Gurbani/kakaars./nitnem banis/amrit/khandey dee pahul..etc etc..or LACK of Hair/no beard/shaved muchhan..no banis..no nitnem etc etc..all these are INDIVIDUAL BASED...Its the INDIVIDUAL whos at fault.OMG:{;o::advocate:


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Oct 25, 2009)

When a Sikh asks me why I keep kesh, I usually just reply, "Because my Guru asks it of me."

When the non-keshdhari - I've never been asked that question by a keshdhari Sikh - comes back defensively, "You think I should keep kesh, too, don't you?"  my usual response is, "I don't know who your Guru is and what he asks of you, so I have no opinion."  That usually ends the conversation.

When a non-Sikh asks me about uncut hair on head and elsewhere, I am, of course, much more forthcoming.  I do, however, always end with, "The most important reason is that my Guru asks it of me."

Sorry if I'm sanctimonious.  (But only a little bit sorry.):whisling::rofl!!:

:ice:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 26, 2009)

Mai Ji..GOOD ANSWER.
A perosn who knows nothing about his GURU or what the GURU asks of him..is NO SIKH..hiowever much he may attempt to "force himself" on SGGS and say I am SGGS sikh...and quote one liners tuks from SGGS...NO WAY cna anyone FORCE the SGGS to accept him without bothering to listen to SGGS.


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## Sikh royalist (Oct 31, 2009)

well i think kanwar is above all 
what i have observed is that half of these sardar guys are willing to cut their hairs i intend to share something, i had a friend at college he was a tall smart sardar his turban was the best one can imagine he looked cool but he didn't had a girl friend all my mates had the kind of impression that i had so many girl Friends ( don't know the reason why they thought so but its not true, i prefer to stay at a distance of minimum 100 meters from a girl) he once sat with me for sometime and i told him that if he gets his hair cut he will look smarter :}8-: he didn't come to college for some days and when he came :whisling:he was without a turban(he was beaten black and blue by his father,mother,uncles,elder brothers) 

so what sardars need is commitment more than anything else.


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## Astroboy (Dec 17, 2009)

> well i think kanwar is above all


 Yes, well focused. Like a compass needle.


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