# Nihang Niddar Singh - What Is The Controversy?



## Randip Singh (Jan 25, 2009)

So what is the controversy surrounding this fellow?


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## spnadmin (Jan 25, 2009)

Randip ji

As I said in another thread, this is all emerging in crumbs here and there. I though that you would know more since you are in the UK. The controversies are not about Niddar ji. I have only a theory at this point: Niddar ji got caught up in a wave of controversies and when the book was published he was swamped by a climate of controversy, because he said some things that are not strictly according to rehat. People with "purist" agendas seized the moment to take issue with him publicly. That is my thinking at this time


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## dalsingh (Jan 26, 2009)

I would say the controversy lies in his sanatanist viewing of Sikhism which portrays it as a string off the main Hindu ball. It is no big secret that many people calling themselves Sikh have no problem with this assertion but it is also plainly evident that many people who call themselves Sikh vehemently object to this interpretation, and have been doing so for over a century at least. 

My own personal view is that he may represent a minority view from the panth of old. This view is very different to what mainline Sikhs believe today. There lies the controversy.


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2009)

dalsingh ji

If the people demanding the apology were themselves mainstream then I would agree with you. Correct my errors of thinking -- but I believe that they are as Randip ji stated in another thread members of sects with themselves distinctive points of view.

Also why is the correction of Niddar associated with his book if it is his practice of Sikhism that is faulty? The book should stand on its scholarly merits not the orientation of the author.

As I said ji-- I am open to correction. This is mystifying.


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2009)

There is a related discussion at this link Dalsingh ji

http://www.sikhism.us/questions-and-answers/23860-hazur-sahib-tilak-question.html


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## dalsingh (Jan 26, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> dalsingh ji
> 
> If the people demanding the apology were themselves mainstream then I would agree with you. Correct my errors of thinking -- but I believe that they are as Randip ji stated in another thread members of sects with themselves distinctive points of view.
> 
> ...


 
One thing that I believe often gets overlooked by Sikhs is the evolution factor. For instance we know that Dasmesh Pita gave out one set of rehat in 1699, but subsequently different jathas, separated from each other under seriously hostile conditions, expanded these. This may well explain why we get variations in rehat marayadas that claim to be from old (such as DDT and nihungs). The other point is that the nihungs from Hazuur Sahib have had a very patchy relationship with their Panjabi brothers and sisters and therefore my have developed their own strain of maryada. Another alternative view is that they actually represent older practices which have since died out in the Panjab. 

What we can probably guess is that some Singhs stayed their (Hazuur Sahib) after Guru ji's passing and I think many Singhs went there immediately after the Anglo-Sikh wars as they were being hunted down by the British and their Sikh supporters in the Panjab. 



> Also why is the correction of Niddar associated with his book if it is his practice of Sikhism that is faulty? The book should stand on its scholarly merits not the orientation of the author


 
Some people are uncomfortable with any scholarly actvity that challenges established wisdom, this could be a justified objection or otherwise.


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## kds1980 (Jan 26, 2009)

What I know about him is That He is not a good guy and He is 7 feet tall


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> What I know about him is That He is not a good guy and He is 7 feet tall



kds ji 

It is too early for me in the morning to be laughing as hard as I am.


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## Archived_member7 (Jan 26, 2009)

The people to oppose him are from Akhand Kirtani Jatha ...we all know this 'sect' in itself is a mess..playing with the rehit is their favorite past time ...i like their founder Bhai Randhirsinghji ..but not the way things are going at their end ...

The Nihangs follow Puratan Sikhi...and the AKJ has hijacked their baana..trying to be the modern 'nihangs' ...

The main prob is the islam like mentality of such sects who just find fault with other sects..


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## Randip Singh (Jan 26, 2009)

Ok, let us post some links here here and some articles for and against and make some sense of it.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 26, 2009)

So far I find the comments pretty funny. How can a Singh be pushed to apologize, its hard to understand the support behind this. Singhs are suppose to stand up to oppression doesn't matter where it is coming from and here people are saying Bhai Niddar Singh gave in. Hes a Gatka instructor and a *Nihang Singh* a man like him knows how to defend his stand physically and mentally. Reminds me of the Sakhi of Taru Singh. Taught us to stand up in what we believe in don't give into oppresion. 

Here you have Bhia Niddar Singh ji apologizing not because of oppression, but for his mistakes.

I think some take this as the opportunity to get there nicely polished rods that have been sitting in the corner wait for the right moment and do some jatha bashing. Get all that built up anger out the right way!


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> The people to oppose him are from Akhand Kirtani Jatha ...we all know this 'sect' in itself is a mess..playing with the rehit is their favorite past time ...i like their founder Bhai Randhirsinghji ..but not the way things are going at their end ...
> 
> The Nihangs follow Puratan Sikhi...and the AKJ has hijacked their baana..trying to be the modern 'nihangs' ...
> 
> The main prob is the islam like mentality of such sects who just find fault with other sects..


''

rajkhalsa ji

This is what I see shaping up too. But how to be certain? It is confusing because it almost seems as new and special definitions are being formed that had not up until now existed. For example, why would Nihangs ask another Nihang to apologize for having "purutan" inclinations. That makes no sense at all. And yes, to me it was looking like AKJ and made took up  the controversy with Niddar ji. But you can see how bewildered I am.


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## kds1980 (Jan 26, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Ok, let us post some links here here and some articles for and against and make some sense of it.



Some days back I posted comments of bahadur singh/javanmard/bahadur ali , an ex - sikh convert.Much of his anger was directed towards niddar singh and his nihangs,that guy really had bad experiance with him.I even talked with vijaydeep singh on niddar some days back and he told me that niddar has some goon type mentality.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 26, 2009)

Duplicated


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 26, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> ''
> 
> rajkhalsa ji
> 
> This is what I see shaping up too. But how to be certain? It is confusing because it almost seems as new and special definitions are being formed that had not up until now existed. For example, why would Nihangs ask another Nihang to apologize for having "purutan" inclinations. That makes no sense at all. And yes, to me it was looking like AKJ and made took up the controversy with Niddar ji. But you can see how bewildered I am.


 
niddar singh - Google Video=#

Here's which jatha was there and asked for the apology by Niddar Singh

Nang Niddar Singh Apologising for his mistakes made in his book 'In The Masters Presence' and for misleading the sikh sangat. This was carried out in front of Singh Sahib Kulawant Singh, representatives of Buddha Dal, Tarna Dal, Hazoor Sahib Singhs, Damdami Taksal and other Jathebandiya - this is following a number of run ins with Nihungs Singhs from the various Dals who challenged Niddar on his views on Sikh Women cutting their Kes and Sikhs being Hindus etc. As per the video Niddar was unable to justify his stance and views. All present Nihang Dals condemn Niddar and his views. «

Well according to some now the Puratan Sikhi that Nihangs follow let women cut their hair and Sikhs are Hindus. Some have been smoking the good old Sukha for to long. Last time I heard the youngster these days were going puff puff pass.


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## dalsingh (Jan 26, 2009)

You can see Niddar in a little gatka clash here. He's the bigger guy. Although I probably wouldn't find his Sikhi views very agreeable he looks like the type that may be good to have around in a brawl...lol

YouTube - Nidar Nihang VS. Ustad Uptej Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> Some days back I posted comments of bahadur singh/javanmard/bahadur ali , an ex - sikh convert.Much of his anger was directed towards niddar singh and his nihangs,that guy really had bad experiance with him.I even talked with vijaydeep singh on niddar some days back and he told me that niddar has some goon type mentality.



kds ji

Since vijaydeep ji is always balanced and objective his perception carries weight as far as I am concerned.  I am not sure about the ex-sikh convert though.

Also can you explain why his views on kes would have any bearing on the book In the Master's Presence -- which is about the history of Hazoor Sahib and not about kes? Any help along those lines would be most appreciated.


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## Kuls1980 (Jan 27, 2009)

Hello everyone.

I have just joined this forum and the first subject I stumble upon, is about Niddhar Singh. Every Sikh forum you go to, there are more topics on him rather than any thing else. We have given him a lot of publicity. Good or Bad.

On a personal note Niddhar Singh is a good man, he has great knowledge that he wants to share with rest of the Sikh community. Then it's entirely up to the individual if they want to take this information or throw it in the bin. 
I think the AKJ, have seriously been hurt by this man, thats why they have such a strong opinion on him. AKJ and other sects are looking for an escape goat to blame for their downfall. 

I apologies if I have offended any one, but this solely my point of view.

Gurfetha


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## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2009)

Singh said:


> niddar singh - Google Video=#
> 
> Here's which jatha was there and asked for the apology by Niddar Singh
> 
> ...



Ermm Nihangs don't smoke. Where did you get such misinformation. Sukka is consumed in a liquid form. It was administered to Sikhs before battle. It is something commmonly used by Kshatriya class in the Indian subcontinent.

I think that apology was made under duress and some people stirred the situation up against Niddar.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> You can see Niddar in a little gatka clash here. He's the bigger guy. Although I probably wouldn't find his Sikhi views very agreeable he looks like the type that may be good to have around in a brawl...lol
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zictTAHybqQ



He seems pretty handy by the looks of things. Looks very skilled.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> Some days back I posted comments of bahadur singh/javanmard/bahadur ali , an ex - sikh convert.Much of his anger was directed towards niddar singh and his nihangs,that guy really had bad experiance with him.I even talked with vijaydeep singh on niddar some days back and he told me that niddar has some goon type mentality.



I have watched a few more videos of him. My opinion of Niddar:



He seems well educated
Physically very fit
Speaks very respectfully
He has had death threats to him allegedly by AKJ
His family have had death threats allegedly by the AKJ
A disabled family member actually beaten by identified AKJ members
He's written a book with Parmjit Singh
He teaches kids martial arts and how to defend themselves
I think given if I had death threats, a disabled family member beaten, I may too have goons around me.

My concern is why people seem so threatened by him when all neutral accounts of him show him to be a decent fellow?


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 27, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Ermm Nihangs don't smoke. Where did you get such misinformation. Sukka is consumed in a liquid form. It was administered to Sikhs before battle. It is something commmonly used by Kshatriya class in the Indian subcontinent.
> 
> I think that apology was made under duress and some people stirred the situation up against Niddar.


 
LOL, Randip ji i was just making a joke about the Sukha part. That joke had nothing to do with the Nihang Singhs and there intake of Sukha.

Some members had mentioned that Nihangs follow the puratan Sikhi and then I just said that would mean that they believe that Sikhs are Hindus and Kaurs can cut there hair. Because that is what Niddar Singh ji apologized for stating in his book.

Nihang Singhs also challenged Niddar Singh ji on the same issues. Its just now he apologized infront of the various jatha that were listed in my last post.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 27, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I have watched a few more videos of him. My opinion of Niddar:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This whole thing is being taken out of porportion.  Niddar Singh ji apoloigized for his mistakes and that should be the end of it.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 28, 2009)

Singh said:


> LOL, Randip ji i was just making a joke about the Sukha part. That joke had nothing to do with the Nihang Singhs and there intake of Sukha.
> 
> Some members had mentioned that Nihangs follow the puratan Sikhi and then I just said that would mean that they believe that Sikhs are Hindus and Kaurs can cut there hair. Because that is what Niddar Singh ji apologized for stating in his book.
> 
> Nihang Singhs also challenged Niddar Singh ji on the same issues. Its just now he apologized infront of the various jatha that were listed in my last post.




LOL...I see.

Saying that, I have heard from other historical sources that because all the Panj Pyarey were men, the 5k's is optional for women. So it may be a serious point he has made. In anycase, just because we don't agree, it does not mean those people should silence him.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 28, 2009)

randip singh said:


> LOL...I see.
> 
> Saying that, I have heard from other historical sources that because all the Panj Pyarey were men, the 5k's is optional for women. So it may be a serious point he has made. In anycase, just because we don't agree, it does not mean those people should silence him.


 
Interesting veer ji can these hsitorical sources be presented for the rest of the sangat to see.  It would be interest to see who wrote these historical sources and where they come from.

Back to Niddar Singh ji, well if he had the proof veer ji then he wouldn't have apologized for his mistakes.  Niddar Singh ji would have presented the historical sources and if he did they must not be valid support.  Like i said in my last post Niddar SIngh jis views were challenged, meaning he was given the opportunity to present his case and even doing so he apologized for his wrong doings; he was proven wrong.


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## Kuls1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

This so called apology, who was it to? Sikhs? But it still did not change anything, Niddhar's book still got published and that’s what he ultimately wanted. I have to give it to this guy, he has some serious courage, to make the apology and then release the book. That seems to me a big slap on people who are using this as downfall of Niddhar. 

Why are we so against him? He has his opinion and if people wanted to follow him then let them. If AKJ and other sects cant keep hold of their young sangat, then that’s an issue they should try to resolve in the jatha.

The question is why so many Educated and the young are following his philosophy, that is the true question then these Jatha's may find the answer. 

I apologies if I have offended any one.

Gurufetha


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 28, 2009)

Kuls1980 said:


> This so called apology, who was it to? Sikhs? But it still did not change anything, Niddhar's book still got published and that’s what he ultimately wanted. I have to give it to this guy, he has some serious courage, to make the apology and then release the book. That seems to me a big slap on people who are using this as downfall of Niddhar.
> 
> Why are we so against him? He has his opinion and if people wanted to follow him then let them. If AKJ and other sects cant keep hold of their young sangat, then that’s an issue they should try to resolve in the jatha.
> 
> ...


 
It was not an opinion, his statements according to him were in line with Sikhi and for that his statements got challenged and he could not support them.  Niddar Singh ji was and is misleading the sangat on a global level with his book and this does become a issue for all Sikhs. It's only a natural response for a Sikh to stand up for what is right.  Something our Guru taugh/teaches us on this journey to the Lord.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 28, 2009)

Singh said:


> Interesting veer ji can these hsitorical sources be presented for the rest of the sangat to see.  It would be interest to see who wrote these historical sources and where they come from.



I will have a look but you are missing the point. The point is he is entitled to his view. We may not agree with his view but he is entitled to it. 




Singh said:


> Back to Niddar Singh ji, well if he had the proof veer ji then he wouldn't have apologized for his mistakes.  Niddar Singh ji would have presented the historical sources and if he did they must not be valid support.  Like i said in my last post Niddar SIngh jis views were challenged, meaning he was given the opportunity to present his case and even doing so he apologized for his wrong doings; he was proven wrong.



Not at all. 

Do you think those loony tunes would have had a reasoned conversation with him? 

I have seen the youtube video and it seemed to be a mob rather than a reasoned debate. 

I think it shows great humility on his part to *apologise even when he has done nothing wrong but present a view point.*

And Sikh apologise all the time....ever heard the phrase Bul Chak Maff?


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## Randip Singh (Jan 28, 2009)

Duplicate


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## Randip Singh (Jan 28, 2009)

Singh said:


> It was not an opinion, his statements according to him were in line with Sikhi and for that his statements got challenged and he could not support them.



This is not true. I have watched his apology. He does not say this.



Singh said:


> Niddar Singh ji was and is misleading the sangat on a global level with his book and this does become a issue for all Sikhs.



How is he misleading Sangat? Have you read his book?



Singh said:


> It's only a natural response for a Sikh to stand up for what is right.  Something our Guru taugh/teaches us on this journey to the Lord.



It's right to stand up for what's right, but not to act like a bunch of jackals baying for blood like the you tube video. This fellow seems to do more good than bad.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 28, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I will have a look but you are missing the point. The point is he is entitled to his view. We may not agree with his view but he is entitled to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Bhia Sahib watch the video more closely.  At the beginning a Singh says look at this, at first there were only 4 to 5 singhs so why all this chaos now. (Same thing said a little later on in the video by another Singh and Niddar Singh ji is nodding his head giving the indication he agrees with what is being said directly to him.)  Then afterwards a Singh states some of these Singh are Baba ji (Niddar Singh jis) Singhs and Niddar Singh ji did not deny is Singh were there.  They treat Niddar Singh ji with respect and gave him the chance to explain himself.  Niddar Singh ji had no response when asked to explain his views.  To call these guys goons or loony tunes is a shortcoming on your part.  Even his own Singhs did not speak out for him on his views that were present during the apology video.

The apology is a documented account and video account of Bhai Niddar Singh ji apologizing for his mistakes made in the book he wrote.  The video shows the seriousness of the apology that is being asked from Niddar Singh ji. Not the way you state it as just Bul chak maff.  You say he has done nothing wrong, but yet Niddar Sigh ji is apologizing himself for making mistakes in his book and it is documented and videoed.  

To state: I have not taken no sides to this whole thing neither am I saying someone stated I did, just looking at the facts and presenting what happened.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 28, 2009)

randip singh said:


> This is not true. I have watched his apology. He does not say this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Bhai Sahib ji, Niddar Singh ji apologizes for the many mistakes he has made in his book and on misleading the Sikhi community in the video.  I don't know how someone can up out and say he did not mislead the Sikhi community when he directly says he did do it himself, but staying in context.

Veer ji I am not saying he is a bad guy or a good guy just sticking to what is at hand and repeating what was said inthe video by Niddar Singh ji.  Niddar Singh ji could be doing more good then bad, but in this case he apologizes for his wrong doings.  In this case it is relevant to say he was wrong.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 28, 2009)

Singh said:


> Bhai Sahib ji, Niddar Singh ji apologizes for the many mistakes he has made in his book and on misleading the Sikhi community in the video.  I don't know how someone can up out and say he did not mislead the Sikhi community when he directly says he did do it himself, but staying in context.
> 
> Veer ji I am not saying he is a bad guy or a good guy just sticking to what is at hand and repeating what was said inthe video by Niddar Singh ji.  Niddar Singh ji could be doing more good then bad, but in this case he apologizes for his wrong doings.  In this case it is relevant to say he was wrong.



Look Brother,

I am going to make my mind up when I have read his book.

I am sceptical whether his apology was made just to keep the peace or whether he actually apologised for content in his book.

As a general note I am very worried about sites being set up just to slander someone. Here are some examples I found just now:

YouTube - Niddar The Giddar  <<< what exactly is he doing wrong here apart from teaching kids self defence? They say he RSS, how and where? Where is he telling peopleto drink alcohol?

Nang Niddar Exposed - DiscoverSikhi.Com  <<< More bacwaas posted by the notorious idiot Banda Singh who runs a very dodgy Sikh website that misforms Sikhs about Sikh History.

Nang Niddar Exposed - DiscoverSikhi.Com  <<<< more nindya from that fanatical tapoban site.

Niddar 'Singh'   <<<< a blog spot set up by a Nindak to slander Niddar Singh? How is this person still a Sikh after slandering someone like this?

Panthic Weekly: Sanatanist Nihang Niddar Apologizes on newly released Hazur Sahib Video  <<<< here we have the biggest nindiya platform in the world, Panthic Weekly, slandering him.

Now Singh ji even you have to admit what kind of cowardly "Sikhs" put up such slandering garbage on the internet? 

I always thought Sikhs were fearless and if they had a problem they confronted them likewise. 

If Niddar Singh has published a book with references then why don't the Nindaks publish a researched book to counter him rather than spreading hate and garbage on the net?

Can you see where I am coming from? No man deserves such slandering.


Here are some of my views:



There have always been Sehajdhari Sikhs - monays have been included in this. Remember the monay Brar Jats?
Alcohol can be used medicinally by Sikhs as can other drugs. The idea is not to get off your head. There are accounts of this from eyewitness's.
People get all excited because the Baba's and Bhai's he seems to have criticised he is saying are not perfect.Well he's entitled to his view. I have strongly criticised Bhai Randhir Singh in the past about his writings.
If he believes in a Sanatan version of Sikhi, he is entitled to, jsut as AKJ, GNSSJ, DDT, 3HO etc believe in a heavily Vaishnavised version of Sikhi....even though the latter groups won't admit it.
Now does this make me bad?

PS Excuse some of my language, but this Nindiya has got me riled up.


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## Kuls1980 (Jan 29, 2009)

randip singh, I agree 100% with you. You have made some very good points. I'm coming from a neutral point of view and these points are valid. AKJ and other jathas need to realise what’s out there and not fight it but logically rectify the issue, if it is an issue. 

Niddhar's support has been increasing over the last few years and its continuing to grow. The reason, he has used his brain to deal with the issues not just use brut force. One thing I have discovered with Discoversikhi forum, if you have a separate point of view on a subject, they label you as an RSS agent. For Gods sake it a discussion forum, that’s the whole point of it to discuss these matters.

I apologies if I have offended any one.

Gurfethay


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## Randip Singh (Jan 29, 2009)

Kuls1980 said:


> randip singh, I agree 100% with you. You have made some very good points. I'm coming from a neutral point of view and these points are valid. AKJ and other jathas need to realisewhat’s out there and not fight it but logically rectify the issue, if it is an issue.



When these sites put out materail defaming Nihang Niddar Singh, who is the loser? Sikhism

When they call him an RSS Agent, who is the loser? Sikhism

When they say only their Jatha view point is right and no else has a view point, who is the loser? Sikhism



Kuls1980 said:


> Niddhar's support has been increasing over the last few years and its continuing to grow. The reason, he has used his brain to deal with the issues not just use brut force. One thing I have discovered with Discoversikhi forum, if you have a separate point of view on a subject, they label you as an RSS agent. For Gods sake it a discussion forum, that’s the whole point of it to discuss these matters.
> 
> I apologies if I have offended any one.
> 
> Gurfethay




I have been reading a lot of stuff over the last few days and you are correct, Niddars base is steadily increasing. Why?

1) He listens to other viewpoints
2) He is not Hindu-phobic like many DDT, AKJ and other groups
3) He tries to look at subjects in an analytical and rational way
4) He seems educated and well spoken.
5) There does not seem to be any elements of fanaticism in his views. 

What I want to know is is there a rivalry between Ustad Uptej Singh and Nihang Niddar Singh?


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## spnadmin (Jan 29, 2009)

Kuls1980 said:


> randip singh, I agree 100% with you. You have made some very good points. I'm coming from a neutral point of view and these points are valid. AKJ and other jathas need to realisewhat’s out there and not fight it but logically rectify the issue, if it is an issue.
> 
> Niddhar's support has been increasing over the last few years and its continuing to grow. The reason, he has used his brain to deal with the issues not just use brut force. One thing I have discovered with Discoversikhi forum, if you have a separate point of view on a subject, they label you as an RSS agent. For Gods sake it a discussion forum, that’s the whole point of it to discuss these matters.
> 
> ...



You are not exaggerating. A friend of mine had the experience on a very popular forum of being called "shady" because she expressed a view about the 5 k's: That their power lay in the spiritual strength they gave, rather than "magical" protection of Waheguru. It was unbelievable how blatantly mean-spirited the responses were.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 29, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> You are not exaggerating. A friend of mine had the experience on a very popular forum of being called "shady" because she expressed a view about the 5 k's: That their power lay in the spiritual strength they gave, rather than "magical" protection of Waheguru. It was unbelievable how blatantly mean-spirited the responses were.




*Shakes Head*

When will Sikhs get out of the Semetic concept of magic, miracles and freak shows.

Is it so hard for people to accept that is Spirtual Power rather than magic tricks that gave/gives Sikhs power?


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## Kuls1980 (Jan 30, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> You are not exaggerating. A friend of mine had the experience on a very popular forum of being called "shady" because she expressed a view about the 5 k's: That their power lay in the spiritual strength they gave, rather than "magical" protection of Waheguru. It was unbelievable how blatantly mean-spirited the responses were.


 
aad0002 ji, thank you for agreeing with me. Many times I have been on the Discoversikh forum and many of my posts never get posted. So I have finally given up these people. Sikhs have to understand the true spiritual concept not like some magic powers (mentioned my randip singh ji). Sikhs have to get out of this thinking and bring some practicality into it.

I apologies if I have offended any one

Gurufetha & God Bless


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## Kuls1980 (Jan 30, 2009)

randip singh said:


> What I want to know is is there a rivalry between Ustad Uptej Singh and Nihang Niddar Singh?


 
randip Singh,

There is no rivalry between Ustad Uptej Singh and Nihang Niddar Singh. It had started of as nothing that has been turned into a forest fire. People who been fueling this fire are the AKJ, I think not even his students say there is a rivalry. If you speak to Niddhar Singh on this issue he will say "I have no issue with him but it's been misled by many Jathas who are against me". 
I hope this has made it a bit clearer.

Gurufetha


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## spnadmin (Jan 30, 2009)

Kuls1980 said:


> aad0002 ji, thank you for agreeing with me. Many times I have been on the Discoversikh forum and many of my posts never get posted. So I have finally given up these people. Sikhs have to understand the true spiritual concept not like some magic powers (mentioned my randip singh ji). Sikhs have to get out of this thinking and bring some practicality into it.
> 
> I apologies if I have offended any one
> 
> Gurufetha & God Bless



Well Kuls1980 -- You are welcome. I hardly ever post there, and use a different screen name anyway. But I do once a week read some of the discussions. And I just shake my head.  And many of the other forums have similar discussions.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 30, 2009)

This forum, thanks to Aman ji broad-mindedness is the most free Sikh forums out there where opinions are allowed and freedom isn't suppressed.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Jan 30, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Look Brother,
> 
> I am going to make my mind up when I have read his book.
> 
> ...


 


> As a general note I am very worried about sites being set up just to slander someone. Here are some examples I found just now:
> 
> YouTube - Niddar The Giddar <<< what exactly is he doing wrong here apart from teaching kids self defence? They say he RSS, how and where? Where is he telling peopleto drink alcohol?
> 
> ...


 
Bhai Sahib none of these people speak for the video where Niddar Singh ji apologises.  This information is irrelevant as me saying when Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was called maya and lifeless by a poster, these views are of this site; Sikh Philosophy Network.

Alot of people put garbage on the internet and it happens on every discussion site.  Some are just moorakh people and after being warned they still do it.  What can you do about it.

Bhai Sahib, Niddar SIngh ji was confronted about his views in a respectful manner and he apologized for his mistakes.  Bhai Niddar SIngh ji did not apology just to keep peace, if he did then the very kirpan he wears is only for show.  

If some jathas are oppressors then the time of the video was Niddar Singh ji time to show who they really are, he would have exposed them.  But this was not the case.  Some are forgeting the very foundations Sikhi stands on and for this I am really concerned.  Where is Sikhi headed if the very foundations are being overlooked.



> Here are some of my views:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
There is no such thing as Sehajdari Sikh.  Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was for all Sikhs, there was no exceptions made.



> If he believes in a Sanatan version of Sikhi, he is entitled to, jsut as AKJ, GNSSJ, DDT, 3HO etc believe in a heavily Vaishnavised version of Sikhi....even though the latter groups won't admit it.


 
Bhai Sahib ji, you are missing the point.  He apologized for his views infront of his own Singhs, which also don't agree with him.  He wrote a book that can be available globally and misguide the Sikh community and others.  About the alcohol part if you watch the video again they are saying, you said Singh can drink sharaab meaning consume alcohol as alcohol, not as medicine.  And if he did not mean it that way then he would have spoken up and said you are misintrepriting what I have said or one of his SInghs would have done it.  Same with the haircutting comment.  It comes clear what is at question and what Nddar Singh ji apologizes for in the Video.  I had to watch it a couple of times to get what was being said.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Jan 30, 2009)

Kuls1980 said:


> randip singh, I agree 100% with you. You have made some very good points. I'm coming from a neutral point of view and these points are valid. AKJ and other jathas need to realisewhat’s out there and not fight it but logically rectify the issue, if it is an issue.
> 
> Niddhar's support has been increasing over the last few years and its continuing to grow. The reason, he has used his brain to deal with the issues not just use brut force. One thing I have discovered with Discoversikhi forum, if you have a separate point of view on a subject, they label you as an RSS agent. For Gods sake it a discussion forum, that’s the whole point of it to discuss these matters.
> 
> ...


 
Kuds ji you say it was resolved illogically, but the very video shows otherwise.  Also saying Niddar SIngh jis support increasing is overlooking why it is increasing.  Many factor could have contributed here.  His views could have just appealed to the youth and not gone with Sikhi.  We see alot of this, people agree with what fits to their lifestyle and not going with Sikhi.  The thing these days that is being spread is that we Sikhs need to get with the moderate world.  This would mean to go against Guru ji and go with what people accept in society.  Just because the masses agree to it does not mean it is right.



> One thing I have discovered with Discoversikhi forum, if you have a separate point of view on a subject, they label you as an RSS agent. For Gods sake it a discussion forum, that’s the whole point of it to discuss these matters.


 
Its not Discoversikhi forum that label people as RSS, its the people that discuss in those sites.  Just like in this site our views are not of Sikh Philosophy Network the same applies at other sites.


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## spnadmin (Jan 30, 2009)

Khalsa ji

Here is the link to the table of contents 

Amazon.co.uk: Books: In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib: 1

Here is the link to the index
Amazon.co.uk: Books: In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib: 1

Here is the link to an excerpt in the book

Amazon.co.uk: Books: In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib: 1

This is all about the history of Hazoor Sahib. Not about misleading the youth of Sikhi. If there are errors, the legitimate critics will be other historians -- don't you think?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Jan 30, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Khalsa ji
> 
> Here is the link to the table of contents
> 
> ...


 
This doesn't prove anything Aad ji.  Presenting the index, table of content, and so on doesn't mean anything.  You're making a big assumption and don't even have much support.  Please watch the video, its solid proof of what took place and what Bhai Niddar Singh ji apologized for.  To repeat myself for the 100th time he apologised for making mistakes in the book In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib:1and if you listen carefully he says for misleading the Sikh community.  I believe that includes the Sikh youth.  

After 5 pages of discussion, I'm glad they made the video.  Now its clear whose right and whose wrong.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 30, 2009)

Singh ji

I did watch the video -- many posts back.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 31, 2009)

Singh said:


> This doesn't prove anything Aad ji.  Presenting the index, table of content, and so on doesn't mean anything.  You're making a big assumption and don't even have much support.  Please watch the video, its solid proof of what took place and what Bhai Niddar Singh ji apologized for.  To repeat myself for the 100th time he apologised for making mistakes in the book In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib:1and if you listen carefully he says for misleading the Sikh community.  I believe that includes the Sikh youth.
> 
> After 5 pages of discussion, I'm glad they made the video.  Now its clear whose right and whose wrong.



1 Question:

Have you read his book?

Because that alleged apology really means nothing.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 31, 2009)

Singh said:


> Bhai Sahib none of these people speak for the video where Niddar Singh ji apologises. This information is irrelevant as me saying when Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was called maya and lifeless by a poster, these views are of this site; Sikh Philosophy Network.



No. these are my views not the views of this site. My view is that AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ etc sites spewed out garbage that has led people to post abuse about Niddar Singh.



Singh said:


> Alot of people put garbage on the internet and it happens on every discussion site. Some are just moorakh people and after being warned they still do it. What can you do about it.



You can stop AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ sites from allowing garbage to be posted on their sites that fuels this.



Singh said:


> Bhai Sahib, Niddar SIngh ji was confronted about his views in a respectful manner and he apologized for his mistakes.



Were you there?

How do you know someone wasn't holding agun behind the camera? How do you know that there were not mutitudes there to get him?



Singh said:


> Bhai Niddar SIngh ji did not apology just to keep peace, if he did then the very kirpan he wears is only for show.



If this is what you think then you do not under stand the code of the SantSipahi. Ever heard of the term "discretion is the better part of valour?" He used discretion to shut up a baying mob, kudos to him.



Singh said:


> If some jathas are oppressors then the time of the video was Niddar Singh ji time to show who they really are, he would have exposed them. But this was not the case. Some are forgeting the very foundations Sikhi stands on and for this I am really concerned. Where is Sikhi headed if the very foundations are being overlooked.



Come on. Is that what you really think? That is pretty naive.

This video has been used to ridicule him. Those jathas should hang their heads in shame.




Singh said:


> There is no such thing as Sehajdari Sikh.  Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was for all Sikhs, there was no exceptions made.



I beg to difffer. Read some history and find out who was looking after Sikh shrines when othodox Sikhs were in hiding in the jungles.




Singh said:


> Bhai Sahib ji, you are missing the point. He apologized for his views infront of his own Singhs, which also don't agree with him. He wrote a book that can be available globally and misguide the Sikh community and others.



STOP.

Have you read the book. If you haven't then you cannot make that comment. You should withdraw it.



Singh said:


> About the alcohol part if you watch the video again they are saying, you said Singh can drink sharaab meaning consume alcohol as alcohol, not as medicine. And if he did not mean it that way then he would have spoken up and said you are misintrepriting what I have said or one of his SInghs would have done it. Same with the haircutting comment. It comes clear what is at question and what Nddar Singh ji apologizes for in the Video. I had to watch it a couple of times to get what was being said.



You cannot reason with bayiong mobs or uneducated people in my experience. Niddar did the right thing and told them what they wanted to hear, and apologised.

The educated  people can make up their own mind by buying the book and reading it.....my copy is coming soon and I look forward to reading it.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Feb 1, 2009)

randip singh said:


> 1 Question:
> 
> Have you read his book?
> 
> Because that alleged apology really means nothing.


 
OOO man do i need to read the book.  For Gods sake the guy apologized for the Book.  Randip singh ji, you have a baised view here.  You hate AKJ and are in favor of Niddar Singh ji.  You are not looking at the facts ( the video and written apology) but only at your baised view.  Not being rude, but your opinion of a jatha or a man don't mean anything especially when they are one sided.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Feb 1, 2009)

randip singh said:


> No. these are my views not the views of this site. My view is that AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ etc sites spewed out garbage that has led people to post abuse about Niddar Singh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> No. these are my views not the views of this site. My view is that AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ etc sites spewed out garbage that has led people to post abuse about Niddar Singh.


I never said these views are of the site. Re-read that part again.



> You can stop AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ sites from allowing garbage to be posted on their sites that fuels this.


This view is biased as it gets. Don't be looking in a 90 degree angle. Do a turn 360 degrees then write on this.



> Were you there?
> 
> How do you know someone wasn't holding agun behind the camera? How do you know that there were not mutitudes there to get him?


 
Don't need to be there, the video shows it all.

You didn't take it to the extreme should have said how do you know if someone wasn't holding a sniper rifle through the window and a grenade launcher in the corner. Really childish stuff Bhai Sahib.



> If this is what you think then you do not under stand the code of the SantSipahi. Ever heard of the term "discretion is the better part of valour?" He used discretion to shut up a baying mob, kudos to him.


 
Prove that there was a mob there. Maybe the mafia was there. Flew in from Italy and New York. Then the New jersey crew came in there nicley tailored suits and forced Niddar Singh ji to apologize.



> Come on. Is that what you really think? That is pretty naive.
> 
> This video has been used to ridicule him. Those jathas should hang their heads in shame.


 
Naive about what? His own Singhs that questioned his view should hold there head in shame for questioning his views and then proven him wrong! What are you getting at.



> I beg to difffer. Read some history and find out who was looking after Sikh shrines when othodox Sikhs were in hiding in the jungles.


 
Start a new discussion topic about if Sehjadhari Sikhs exist. All these political names have no place in Sikhi.



> STOP.
> 
> Have you read the book. If you haven't then you cannot make that comment. You should withdraw it.


 
Bhai Sahib you are not making any sense. 



> You cannot reason with bayiong mobs or uneducated people in my experience. Niddar did the right thing and told them what they wanted to hear, and apologised.
> 
> The educated people can make up their own mind by buying the book and reading it.....my copy is coming soon and I look forward to reading it.


 
Too bad this isn't a trial, Randip Singh ji you would be a terrible lawyer. Overlooking every fact and sticking to personal views. Thank God this stuff does not work in court rooms and in Gods court.


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Interesting video:

YouTube - 'In the Master's Presence' Book Launch


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Singh said:


> I never said these views are of the site. Re-read that part again.
> 
> 
> This view is biased as it gets. Don't be looking in a 90 degree angle. Do a turn 360 degrees then write on this.
> ...




Cutting through the personal remarks.

Have you read his book?

Yes or No?


----------



## Kuls1980 (Feb 2, 2009)

Singh, My brother,

Have you met Niddhar Singh? In my personal opinion, you have not met him. You have been listening to many of your friends. The other thing, you have your ways and you are stuck with them, so Veer ji i really do feel sorry for you. 

Discoversikhi.com, is a forum which is based on AKJ set views and YES very one faced views. Brother, everyone has different views and if you are not going to discuss these, you sound like someone from islam. With many of the Jathas, its their way or no way to sikhi. So carry on and i think if you don't like the comments being posted on this forum, you should not post on this forum.

Forgive me if i have offended anyone.

Gurufetha


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Interesting video:
> 
> YouTube - 'In the Master's Presence' Book Launch




Haha,


"If you meet a fool, just agree with him"

Seems like people who had a hand in the destruction of those houses incited those "drugged up individuals".


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Kuls1980 said:


> Singh, My brother,
> 
> Have you met Niddhar Singh? In my personal opinion, you have not met him. You have been listening to many of your friends. The other thing, you have your ways and you are stuck with them, so Veer ji i really do feel sorry for you.
> 
> ...


 

What does meeting with Niddar Singh ji got to do with anything? Did I need to meet with Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji to know his views?

Your little friend remark. I am not in no jatha. Or got a circle of friends that drill poision down my ears. Or got some kind of agenda to ruin a persons name. But for some this is the other way around. I don't have my ways, i go with gurmat, not with no jathas or Gurdwara committees or whatever else is out there. If you feel sorry for me for following Gurmat then stay in your blissful state.



> Brother, everyone has different views and if you are not going to discuss these, you sound like someone from islam. With many of the Jathas, its their way or no way to sikhi. So carry on and i think if you don't like the comments being posted on this forum, you should not post on this forum.


 
Some people just can't accept the truth even when its so blantly presented to you. Randip Singh j has his views, but he trys to twist things in the video to change the video from what it actually shows. Randip Singh ji pretty much tried everything to twist the video and it didn't work. Now hes gone to the point of just sayin stop and then adding comments about 'sehjadahris' people to divert the discussion away from the main discussion. Also the little comment about some historiacal data that shows somethings. When asked to present it, he forgot all about it. Funny how that happens.

I give a unbaised view and if that hurts who you are. Then you have alot more self work to do. Anyone that is following Gurmat is classified as a fanatic or Islamic fanatic. I am not surprised that I heard it from you. It's an easy escape for some people, just call the other a fanatic and end of discusion. Usually comes out of the people that haven't taken amrit and/or on certain days decide to follow Sikhi. The whole pick and choose some Sikhs like to call Sikhi.



> So carry on and i think if you don't like the comments being posted on this forum, you should not post on this forum.


 
Then you shouldn't post on this forum. You didn't like my views on this forum so I think you should not post on this forum. ITs not fun when the same sentence gets turned, is it?



> Forgive me if i have offended anyone.


 
Then you should start apologising to the Islam community for using there name to insult someone.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Feb 2, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Cutting through the personal remarks.
> 
> Have you read his book?
> 
> Yes or No?


 
Why does it only have to be a yes or no question.  There are many other factors that need to be looked by you Bhai Sahib.  Niddar Singh ji apologized for the many mistakes he has made in the book.  After watching the video and how speachless he was on his views, I don't think I'll buy the book.  Books about Sikhi with mistakes in them seem to dilute peoples minds and call Gurmat follow Sikhs fanatics and so on.


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 2, 2009)

Dear kuls

I agree with singh ji on this point that meeting or not meeting Niddar has nothing to do with
making opinion on him.We have to hear or read his views then only we can make opinion


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Feb 2, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Interesting video:
> 
> YouTube - 'In the Master's Presence' Book Launch


 
Bhai Sahib ji, you didn't present the unbaised view right. Here I'll present the two videos side by side. Then the sangat can decide.

YouTube - Nang Niddar Singh Apology - Hazoor Sahib 2008


YouTube - 'In the Master's Presence' Book Launch

After watching the two videos there is some political agendas that go against gurmat at play.  Niddar Singh jis views are on shaky foundations after his two head colliding confessions.  If you decide to read this book written by Niddar Singh ji then read it with a telescope.  In fact I think and not making a joke here, a telescope should come with the book.


----------



## Kuls1980 (Feb 2, 2009)

Singh Ji

What are you trying to prove by posting these videos? What do you want to prove? If people want make their minds up about Niddhar Singh, then it's a personal thing. My brother, you are very good at writing long posts to explain what you trying to say, but you sound like a brain washer.   
"Some people just can't accept the truth even when its so blantly presented to you."
What truth? Do you know the ultimate truth? These videos are pointless mate, the book has been released so read it. Singh,  What point are you trying to prove? Niddhar Singh is a bad name? He has made an apology? But to who?

Have a good day, to much anger will kill you.

I'm not apologizing to any one, because I have not made any mistakes.

Gurufeath


----------



## Singhstah (Feb 2, 2009)

At the end of the day Mr. Niddar's views are that Sikhs are part of the Hindu Samaj, Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj prayed to devi devte, as should sikhs, Bhang to be consumed on a regular basis (ie. not only battle) and stated that some of the greatest Gursikhs would take this even before their morning nitnem! Insulted some of the greatest shaheeds of our time, eg. Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh Ji, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranvale, stated mukhis of taksal are all liars in stating that Damdami Taksal was *not* started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, insulted great Gursikhs such as Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, insulted and lied about the various respected jathas of the Khalsa Panth, etc. etc.
He states that women do not need to wear dastars, keep kesh apart from on the head, and much more twisting up of rehit.
All of this can be seen on his websites.

It is not a matter of a single jatha rejecting him, but of all those who disagree with him on these fundamental issues.


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Singh said:


> Why does it only have to be a yes or no question.  There are many other factors that need to be looked by you Bhai Sahib.  Niddar Singh ji apologized for the many mistakes he has made in the book.  After watching the video and how speachless he was on his views, I don't think I'll buy the book.  Books about Sikhi with mistakes in them seem to dilute peoples minds and call Gurmat follow Sikhs fanatics and so on.



Have you read the book?

If you haven't you are in no position to make any criticism.


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Singhstah said:


> At the end of the day Mr. Niddar's views are that Sikhs are part of the Hindu Samaj, Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj prayed to devi devte, as should sikhs, Bhang to be consumed on a regular basis (ie. not only battle) and stated that some of the greatest Gursikhs would take this even before their morning nitnem! Insulted some of the greatest shaheeds of our time, eg. Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh Ji, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranvale, stated mukhis of taksal are all liars in stating that Damdami Taksal was *not* started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, insulted great Gursikhs such as Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, insulted and lied about the various respected jathas of the Khalsa Panth, etc. etc.
> He states that women do not need to wear dastars, keep kesh apart from on the head, and much more twisting up of rehit.
> All of this can be seen on his websites.
> 
> It is not a matter of a single jatha rejecting him, but of all those who disagree with him on these fundamental issues.



I don't rate DDT or AKJ, I think their are many things they say are wrong on. There you go.

I am traitor too.

I would say disagreeing with the AKJ and DDT version of Sikhism is a good thing. Same as disagreeing with Namdhari, and Radhaswami versions.

Have you read the book?


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> Dear kuls
> 
> I agree with singh ji on this point that meeting or not meeting Niddar has nothing to do with
> making opinion on him.We have to hear or read his views then only we can make opinion



Is forming an opinion on his book right without reading it as Singh has?

From what I can understand is that some people were upset that Niddar named and shamed some people who destroyed Architectural heritage of the Sikhs. Watch the video and see.

In anycase I will form my opinion once I have read the book.


----------



## Singhstah (Feb 2, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I don't rate DDT or AKJ, I think their are many things they say are wrong on. There you go.
> 
> I am traitor too.
> 
> Have you read the book?




Hey, I didn't say that anyone who is not a fan of AKJ or DDT is automatically bad, thats absolutely fine if people disagree with them, heck people would label me as AKJ and even I am not to sure about some things happening nowadays. But the point is that the way Mr. N's points are made regarding the two Jathebandis who have carried out and continue to carry out undeniably MAHA SEVA for the Panth, are completely hate filled, full of mischievious misinformation and completely disregard any of the good they have done/do. Even if someone has disagreements with a fellow sikh/ sikh group, they should talk to them with love and the respect that they are due. For an example of this I would point to the relationships between the Jathedars of Taksal and those of AKJ, both with ideological differences, but the pyar portrayed would make it seem there were no differences at all.

No, I haven't read the book and I don't see the problem with that considering that I made no comment regarding it which I certainly would not do without having read it. I just spoke about why he is not liked by the majority of Sikhs and what anti-sikh views he has put forward.  Though, on the book what I will say is that the credibility of its contents is in part slightly lowered considering the response recieved by the Singhs at Hazoor Sahib and Jathedar Kulwant Singh Ji, considering that the book is about something which I don't think anyone one Earth would know more about than these Singhs. Thats all I will say as I agree with you that it would be wrong to comment without having read it.


----------



## Randip Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Singhstah said:


> Hey, I didn't say that anyone who is not a fan of AKJ or DDT is automatically bad, thats absolutely fine if people disagree with them, heck people would label me as AKJ and even I am not to sure about some things happening nowadays. But the point is that the way Mr. N's points are made regarding the two Jathebandis who have carried out and continue to carry out undeniably MAHA SEVA for the Panth, are completely hate filled, full of mischievious misinformation and completely disregard any of the good they have done/do. Even if someone has disagreements with a fellow sikh/ sikh group, they should talk to them with love and the respect that they are due. For an example of this I would point to the relationships between the Jathedars of Taksal and those of AKJ, both with ideological differences, but the pyar portrayed would make it seem there were no differences at all.
> 
> No, I haven't read the book and I don't see the problem with that considering that I made no comment regarding it which I certainly would not do without having read it. I just spoke about why he is not liked by the majority of Sikhs and what anti-sikh views he has put forward.  Though, on the book what I will say is that the credibility of its contents is in part slightly lowered considering the response recieved by the Singhs at Hazoor Sahib and Jathedar Kulwant Singh Ji, considering that the book is about something which I don't think anyone one Earth would know more about than these Singhs. Thats all I will say as I agree with you that it would be wrong to comment without having read it.



Well I don't know the people he criticised, but maybe his criticism were warranted. Remember they were just men at the end of the day, and as men imperfect. Criticing people does not make people bad.

For example I read something about Bandha Bahadhur, that criticised his policies and caused divisions in the Paanth. I don't think the person who made the criticism was a bad person. Just putting his view forward.

We really should look at such things with rationaility. I am coming from the point of view that such diatribe about him on youtube and other sites just looks SIKH per se look bad. If he has made criticisms then post replies answering him, not stuff like "Nang Niddar Singh". I don't agree with that.


----------



## spnadmin (Feb 3, 2009)

Singhstah ji

You are the first person in the discussion to provide us with a list of specifics, rather than two brief examples of Niddar's short-comings (that women do not have to keep hair, and his sanatan leanings). This alone advances the discussion. And you have separated a critique of the book from a critique of his understanding of core Sikh values.

Even though I would like to discuss with you his position on bhang, women and dastar, Hindu Samaj, and other points you have raised -- I won't -- because the thread  still has not come to terms with whether OR not there are problems of fact or scholarship with the book. 





Singhstah said:


> At the end of the day Mr. Niddar's views are that Sikhs are part of the Hindu Samaj, Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj prayed to devi devte, as should sikhs, Bhang to be consumed on a regular basis (ie. not only battle) and stated that some of the greatest Gursikhs would take this even before their morning nitnem! Insulted some of the greatest shaheeds of our time, eg. Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh Ji, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranvale, stated mukhis of taksal are all liars in stating that Damdami Taksal was *not* started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, insulted great Gursikhs such as Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, insulted and lied about the various respected jathas of the Khalsa Panth, etc. etc.
> He states that women do not need to wear dastars, keep kesh apart from on the head, and much more twisting up of rehit.
> All of this can be seen on his websites.
> 
> It is not a matter of a single jatha rejecting him, but of all those who disagree with him on these fundamental issues.


----------



## spnadmin (Feb 3, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Well I don't know the people he criticised, but maybe his criticism were warranted. Remember they were just men at the end of the day, and as men imperfect. Criticing people does not make people bad.
> 
> For example I read something about Bandha Bahadhur, that criticised his policies and caused divisions in the Paanth. I don't think the person who made the criticism was a bad person. Just putting his view forward.
> 
> We really should look at such things with rationaility. I am coming from the point of view that such diatribe about him on youtube and other sites just looks SIKH per se look bad. If he has made criticisms then post replies answering him, not stuff like "Nang Niddar Singh". I don't agree with that.



Randip ji

One grave concern I have as I look at blogs and sites on the net is the extent to which a statement is made -- Niddar said this - Niddar apologized -- Niddar though X, Y and Z -- but there is no evidence to go along with the claims. Only many bold accusations. Then person after person writes angrily about this "devil" as if the claims were true. The net result -- the reality of Niddar Singh is being created by way of group-think and crowd-mentality.  And he remains a mystery.

So in the end -- I wish I could talk to this guy and find out just what he did say, think and do -- with my own eyes and ears. Isn't that ironic? 

The bad PR  spinning around him is making him a celebrity.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 3, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Randip ji
> 
> One grave concern I have as I look at blogs and sites on the net is the extent to which a statement is made -- Niddar said this - Niddar apologized -- Niddar though X, Y and Z -- but there is no evidence to go along with the claims. Only many bold accusations. Then person after person writes angrily about this "devil" as if the claims were true. The net result -- the reality of Niddar Singh is being created by way of group-think and crowd-mentality.  And he remains a mystery.
> 
> ...



Indeed.

If one watches the book launch video and listens to Niddar himself, the incident in Hazoor Sahib seems to be about something totally different.

I agree totally though with the 2+2=5 mentality.

I have a feeling this is about some person (s) EGO. My suspicion is this Niddar Singh fellow may have dented someone's pride by either:
1) Beating them up
2) Challenging them intellectually and beating them in a debate.
3) Both 1 and 2.

Just my theory.

Anyway about to tuck into my east west dinner>>>parontay with baked beans (toorkha style) = yum yum


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## spnadmin (Feb 3, 2009)

randip ji

Pack it in -- I will look up the recipe.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 4, 2009)

I have just received my copy of this book and I would highly recommend it.

It is very well put together, and very well researched, with some beautiful illustration and well sourced and research.

The controversial bit is the section on the current Jathedhar of Hazoor Sahib Kulwant Singh who seems to be a real light weight and complicit in the destruction of Sikh Architecture. There are shocking pictures of demolition of the Ramgarhia Bunga at night time under the cover of darkness. I think Kulwant Singh (who seems pro AKJ or DDT) is/was complicit in this descration of Sikh Architecture. Who needs the GOI to bomb Sikh temples when we have Jathedar Kulwant Singh doing it.

No wonder there is such venom coming from (AKJ/DDT) quarters against Niddar Singh. I say good on Niddar Singh for exposing this and good on him for showing things as they are. Pictures don't lie and the demolition pictures are there for all to see.

On another note Jathedar Kulwant Singh seems to have abandoned the Martial tradition of the Hazoori Sikhs which was kept up by the previous Jathedar Joginder Singh Moni. He seems like an all round wimp, spineless and a corrupt to boot. Sorry for the strong words but what I am reading and the pictures make me really angry.

Nihang Niddar Singh and Paramjit Singh should be praised for exposing this.


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## spnadmin (Feb 4, 2009)

Randip ji

Good for you! :yes: That's what I say!:happy: Your description above also explains why one of those videos (the one about Hazoor Sahib apology) says that Niddar apologized in the presence of Jathedar Kulwant Singh. I now understand the video a little better. He was not apologizing but basically accepting the reality of the situation. Of important note is that the "More info..." link on the video taken at Hazoor Sahib completely misrepresented what was happening in that video. This seems to be a trend on the Internet right now. Someone starts a blog or a rant in a forum making statements that cannot be backed up with facts. Next thing you know there is a long conversation among angry people who are acting as if the story is real, when it is totally cooked up.

Thanks!


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## Randip Singh (Feb 5, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Randip ji
> 
> Good for you! :yes: That's what I say!:happy: Your description above also explains why one of those videos (the one about Hazoor Sahib apology) says that Niddar apologized in the presence of Jathedar Kulwant Singh. I now understand the video a little better. He was not apologizing but basically accepting the reality of the situation. Of important note is that the "More info..." link on the video taken at Hazoor Sahib completely misrepresented what was happening in that video. This seems to be a trend on the Internet right now. Someone starts a blog or a rant in a forum making statements that cannot be backed up with facts. Next thing you know there is a long conversation among angry people who are acting as if the story is real, when it is totally cooked up.
> 
> Thanks!



Yes . Exactly.

Kulwant Singh is the villain of the piece here and he tried to use goons to shut Niddar Singh up. I think certain people who have contributed to this thread and jumped to conclusions should take this as a lesson for the future and not go along with people who would hope to spread gossip (which is easily done), but be independently minded enough to say, wait , hold on, what is this all about?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 6, 2009)

BHEDD CHAAL....is the word.....Randip Ji....
Looks like many Sikhs today are so fast on the jump....jumping on the bandwagon is about the only exercise they do...
we got to be more....into SEHAJ...STOP !! and consider the Whys, the Whos, the Whats...and more before we JUMP to concluisons..
I agree with your analysis and the end result....Identity of  the Villain...
Reading between the lines is an art....now we have to "look between the frames...as well to fully understand You tube and internet videos...looks can be decieving as the written word is....superficial looks and reads wont do..:happy:


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## Randip Singh (Feb 6, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> BHEDD CHAAL....is the word.....Randip Ji....
> Looks like many Sikhs today are so fast on the jump....jumping on the bandwagon is about the only exercise they do...
> we got to be more....into SEHAJ...STOP !! and consider the Whys, the Whos, the Whats...and more before we JUMP to concluisons..
> I agree with your analysis and the end result....Identity of  the Villain...
> Reading between the lines is an art....now we have to "look between the frames...as well to fully understand You tube and internet videos...looks can be decieving as the written word is....superficial looks and reads wont do..:happy:


I also recommend to get the book yourself and decide for yourself to see whether I am being fair.:yes:


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## Boota (Feb 10, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Khalsa ji
> 
> Here is the link to an excerpt in the book
> 
> ...



Not quite.

I decided to read some extracts to see what the fuss is about.

I saw this, here;
Amazon.co.uk: Books: In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib: 1

Guru Gobind is quoted (in the book) to have said (paraphrased) to Jait Ram


_'you are clean shaven and eat pulses with millet....... We keep our hair, keep weapons, hunt and eat' 
_
What exactly is being implied here?

Perhaps yet another apology is in order?


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## spnadmin (Feb 10, 2009)

No apology is in order Boota ji

The controversy is as follows: Why is there a controversy about the book *In the Master's Presence*? You have just demonstrated with your quote that Niddar Singh quoted Guru Gobind Singh's words. Saying that, Niddar Singh got it right as far as the history of Hazoor Sahib is concerned.

His views on kes and the other issues for which he has been faulted were connected to the book at the time of the release of the book. This tactic is called "argumentum ad hominem."  His views on kes should have nothing to do with the scholarly merit of the book. So far no one has addressed the scholarly merit of the book.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 10, 2009)

Boota said:


> Not quite.
> 
> I decided to read some extracts to see what the fuss is about.
> 
> ...



Apology for what?:crazy:


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## spnadmin (Feb 12, 2009)

A balanced perspective at this news source In The Master's Presence | SikhNet


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 13, 2009)

Apology ?? what apology ??
Apology for NOT discussing the "Academic Merits" of the book.... but simply beating about the bush..dhoorr wich tattoo....muddying the waters...or paanee wich madhannii

THATS what the *anti Niddar group* shoudl apologise for...I thought Railroading/shotgunning or kangroo courts went out with the American west/Cowboy justice...seems i am mistaken..it is well and alive in so called nihungs ( and they too ride horses just like the cowboys of the wild west....any coincidence ??)


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## spnadmin (Feb 13, 2009)

Gyani ji

My comment is slightly off topic. But you used a term "kangaroo courts" in your reply and there is something about that expression that puts me literally ROFL.  It makes me forget completely what I was thinking or going to say. Why is that such a funny expression?  Thanks for starting my day with a big big peal of laughter.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 8, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> A balanced perspective at this news source In The Master's Presence | SikhNet




A nice link.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 8, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Apology ?? what apology ??
> Apology for NOT discussing the "Academic Merits" of the book.... but simply beating about the bush..dhoorr wich tattoo....muddying the waters...or paanee wich madhannii
> 
> THATS what the *anti Niddar group* shoudl apologise for...I thought Railroading/shotgunning or kangroo courts went out with the American west/Cowboy justice...seems i am mistaken..it is well and alive in so called nihungs ( and they too ride horses just like the cowboys of the wild west....any coincidence ??)



Gyani ji,

What makes me laugh is that groups like AKJ (who are vehement critics of Niddar Singh) are themselves only 60 years old, and they are criticising groups that have been in existence for over 300 years?


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## zor (Sep 24, 2012)

Unfortunately most human beings concentrate their attention on the outside and keep avoiding inner sight.. Much more easy is to have a sect of those that are in agreement with your ideas and do not post threats to them,then to examine without mercy our own selfs...we should practice without effort the art of daily demolition of ignorance without accumulating any form of pride for doing so...


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## taran0 (Oct 12, 2012)

Nidar claims authenticity mainyl through his connection with nihangs and ancent origins yet they reject him as a fake and excommunicate him.

If you want to see his twisting of gurbani then go to this article 

http://www.shastervidiya.org/the-lies-and-mistruths/

and if you want to see how he falsley claimed that guru gobind singh ji created teh khalsa in the roop of shiva with the blessing of Kalika devi then go here

http://www.shastervidiya.org/nidar-says-khalsa-created-with-blessings-of-kalika-devi/

he is clearly pushign an RSS agenda

and the nihang singhs have rejected him and his views see his excommuncation letter here.







The nihangs say he is a pekhi nihang "fake nihang" and causing confusion within the sikh sangat.

The fol*low*ing is a trans*la*tion of the letterTo the Esteemed Jathedar of the Akaal Takht,
 We feel com*pelled to bring to your atten*tion that Nid*dar Singh aka Surjit Singh bains of Wol*ver*hamp*ton UK  is involved in anti Sikh con*sipir*acies by doing anti-Sikh parchaar on  his web*sites and dilut*ing the sikh philo*sophy by teach*ing that  Sikhs are a part of Hinduism. With his hein*ous teachings(koorr parchar)  he is mis*lead*ing the Sikh sangat.
 He keeps chan*ging the name of his akhara on his web*site to include  names such as “Hindu Santan Shiv Akhara” and is falsely using the name  of Jathedar Akali Baba Dar*bara Singh to legit*im*ise himself.
 Nid*dar Singh is stat*ing that the Khalsa was born from Shiv Ji and  not guru Gobind Singh ji. He also pro*claims falsely that the “Farla” of  Nihang Singhs is sprouted from the ganges river and that blue bana is  from the col*our of Shiva. He is also say*ing that the chakar that  Nihang Singhs wear on their dumalla is a sign of Shivji.
 He is say*ing that the Sikh dharam emerged from hinduism and that  Sikhi is just another sam*parda of the Hindu dharam and is also  teach*ing that Sikh Shastar Vidiya and Gatka is a branch of the Hindu  Dharam.
 Nid*dar Singhs activ*it*ies in the uk are upset*ting and divid*ing  Sikhs there. Guru Gobind Singh ji made the Khalsa unique. This fake  Nihang is spread*ing doubts, con*fu*sion and slander within the sikh  sangat.
 On the 300th cel*eb*ra*tion of Guru Granth Ji’s Gur*gaddi the sangat  of  Hazur Sahib kicked him out due to his nefar*i*ous activ*it*ies and  anti Sikh parchaar.
 By put*ting the con*cerns of the panth first we recomend that this  indi*vidual is brought before the Akal Takht to answer for his crimes  and receive pun*ish*ment accord*ingly and the sikh sangat be freed of  this confusion.​signed by
 Baba Joginder Singh — Jathedar of Budha Dal
Baba Avatar Singh — Jathedar of Bidhi Chand Dal
Baba Nihal Singh — Jathedar of Haria Vela Dal
Baba Gaj*jan Singh — Jathedar Tarana Dal (Baba Bakala)
Baba Harnam Singh — Jathedar Dam*d*ami Tak*sal  &  Sant Samaaj


AKAAAALLLLLL


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 12, 2012)

Hmm, his students will not stop following his misgivings!


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 12, 2012)

But what about the real Sikh martial art =(? I still think it is Shastar Vidya, and not Gatka, which seems to be a decendant of the whole thing? I don´t agree with hsi views about Shiva and stuff, but I am more interested in the real Sikh Martial art, that the british and all others were afraid of. Where you can learn this ancient  Martial art? I don´t know.. In punjab i just always see people doing Gatka and stuff. I mean the one you do with Naam raas and Bir raas. Are the still real masters out there? I think this martial art is dying among us Sikhs... And somehow Niddar Singh is doinga good job, while teaching it. Maybe his views on Sikhi are different, but this doesnt changes the art?


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## taran0 (Oct 12, 2012)

a lot of what nidar teaches is made up from other martial arts mixed with chatka gatka of nihangs - he has learnt other styles and mixed them in.

Nidar Singh makes many fake claims to being the final expo*nent of  Shastar*vidy*a but in one of his inter*views in Mar*tial Arts Magazine he  states:KG: Are there many mas*ters of this art?
NS: As guns became more pop*u*lar the emphasis  on this art decreased in the itini*er*ant Akali Nihang armies. Today  there are not many mas*ters of this art alive. The ones I know, if still  alive, are Nihang Baba Ram Singh in UP, India  and Bhai Ranjit Singh of Patiala who has par*tial know*ledge of this  art. There are no doubt oth*ers in Budha Dal (old*est Sikh mar*tial  order estab*lished in 1606) but they being itin*er*ant men*dic*ants of  secret*ive nature, are not easy to track down.
 Frank Levin, Mar*tials Arts Magazine, USA.​*Baba Giana Singh — Shastar*vidiya — Diwali 2005*




 Baba Ji is about 98 years old, he reads a Panj  Granthi and Das Granthi every*day at amritvela fol*lowed by prac*tice of  Shastar*vidiya, he was a stu*dent of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh  Bhinder*awale. He has trained 17 Singhs into skilled teach*ers of  Shastar*vidiya. May Maha*raj allow Baba Ji to keep inspir*ing us, and  the best of health. This photo was taken at Akali Phoola Singh Burj,  Diwali, 2005. Baba Ji is an expo*nant of Jhatka Gatka, or Jang vidiya.  (ripped from http://akalinihang.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/baba-giana-singh-shastarvidiya.html)
  <hr>  In a meet*ing with Baba Joginder Singh, Jathedar of Budha Dal, who is cur*rently on a visit to the UK.  He also con*firmed that there are many gupt teach*ers of the old  Mar*tial Arts within the Budha Dal. But the main fight these days is  within our*self against Kalyug that we need to place our efforts on.

The thing is can you learn from somone who blatantly tells lies and twists History Gurbani to suit his own hindutva agenda. Can you really trust such a person?  your choice....


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 13, 2012)

Wow! Thanks taran, can you please post more of these links and stuff!! Would be very grateful!!! Didn´t know about that!

As I read further, I come to one point where someone said that Giana Singh just teaches the Basics of this Vidiya, are there any teachers out there besides "Nihang Singh Niddar", who teach Shastar Vidiya? I mean the full one..? Not just Basics and Ghatka? I mean the real deal.. It is just very interesting!


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## zor (Oct 15, 2012)

Sat sri akal
thankyou for your most kind explanation..
If you permit me so,i wish to make a comment on this topic.

The problem if we can say so it is not a matter regarding the mentioned mr 'niddar singh in controversy' but our eyes and specialy our memory are quite at stake..
So i would like to put out a few historical facts that may help us all in understanding better the presented controversy...

We must not forget a few facts like...our great guru nanak was originated in a hindu brahmin family..and as bhai kabir ji,they where devoted to truth,breaking common folk believes and other forms of human mental-spiritual limitations..so we all know that they studied very well the original hindu texts from seers like vasishta,ashtavakra etc and understood that their perception was too advanced for most of the people as today...so it was clear that historical mistakes like calling 'hindu' the 'bharats' was one of those errors that helped leading in to more ignorance unless they are unveil which is our duty..to see and to understand..not just believe and follow automaticaly what was given to us all. In the same way,thousands do not know that afghanistan once was india...many read history without reflecting..and this can cause more confusion...so not to make this topic too long,a few reflections i share with all my brothers...martial arts in india were all but one..a single system composed of 64 skills that embraced abilities that today seem almost impossible to full fill...exple. Riding chariots.controlling animals.ground  wrestling,standing wrestling,knowledge of medicine,missile weapons,concealed weapons use etc etc among these the marvelous use of the chakram..from which many say our kada is derived...but the secret of all was the pondering mind..to perceive by intuition and instinct...so its understandable that many people would love to recover such knowledges,but most of the time the fall in to 'egocentric' activity and dance with their thoughts..resulting in a drunk state of mind...


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## Alan491 (Oct 16, 2012)




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## taran0 (Nov 6, 2012)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>   <o:AllowPNG/>  </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->  Nidar likes to think that he has the FULL vidiya, but really he just learnt the basic as well and propped up the rest with reading literature and amalgamating other arts.

This is evident from those who have seen the progression over the last 15 years, what is now even in name is different to what it is was then.

To say it is ancient and full is a complete long shot, I mean they can't even make wootz steel like the old days.

As time goes on our weapons have advanced and moved onto archery, cannons, guns and explosives so the old arts have naturally dies away.

Regardless of this there is one aspect of Sikh Martial tradition that was unique and it was the fighting spirit of the Khalsa, most of Guru Gobind Singh ji's followers were simple farmers, tanners, carpenters, traders etc.


the 'shastarvidiya' as Nidar states was there before the Sikhs as well, but they were getting panned by the invading forces from Persia, Europe and Uzbekistan (where the Mughals originate from) they had powerful composite bows on horseback (which had been honed and perfected over generations since Genghis khans time) which could decimate Indian shastarvidiya armies before they even got half way through the battlefield, they wore armour which Indians were unaccustomed to. So all this talk of Marams(pressure points) that Nidar teaches his students wouldn’t have been used in battles. The Mughals also introduced the use of gunpowder that would not only damage but disorientate the enemy horses and elephants. Thus Shastarvidiya was defeated and defunct by the superior invading forces

"They brought with them techniques and instruments of warfare that were hitherto unheard of in the sub-continent. The soldiers were completely protected from any possibility of physical attack by means of a complete shield of armour from head to foot, their daggers and swords were made of superior alloys and they brought with them the use of gunfire in warfare. That is why, despite the courage and valour of the Indian armies a small group of warriors was able to overtake them and lay the foundation for one of the grandest Empires in Indian history, the Mughal Empire." 

From the Art Of Mughal Warfare

so what was different between Guru Gobind Singh ji's soldiers, well
what he instilled in them was a fearless attitude and led by example by sacrificing the world but not his beliefs and truth and justice, this gave wake to a new kind of warrior, a Khalsa who fought with honour and had already given their head at baptism. It was the pure audacity and the way in which the Sikhs so readily gave their lives with great happiness that shook the foundations of the Mughal Empire.

The idea that it was a certain STYLE of fighting that enabled the Sikhs to not only win battles but win the hearts of the people to create the Khalsa raj, is in my eyes a bit of a Jackie Chan Kung Fu tale, where the snake style beats the eagle style.

Without spirit and zeal and spiritual strength any army or style of fighting is useless. Similarly for Khalsa without the guru gurbani and naam simran there is no point.

The Sikhs fought in the Second World War not with shastarvidiya but with guns and bayonets, using European modern style of fighting and they were hailed as having great courage and bravery - just read the history of the battle of Saraghari.

So don't be duped by dazzling displays or martial arts showmanship, or claims of ancient complete hidden techniques that have survived thousands of years, which can in no way be corroborated or proven.

When Nidar first came to the UK he used to claim that he never knew the name of his master who taught him, he was anonymous and lived hidden.[/FONT]
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## Vanguard (Nov 8, 2012)

Taran I put this question to you....you claim Nidar Singh accepts balbir singh as the jathedar(according to your article) correct? 

what about your soo called jathedar who turned his back on baba surjeet singh and accepted balbir as the head of dal panth?

http://www.budhadal.com/pictures2.htm

http://www.budhadal.com/images/press/DSC_0026.JPG

joginder isn't the head of budha dal as you claim, hes just a feem addict who is a coward and has let the TRUE head of budha dal Baba Surjeet singh rot in jail


How about you've sided with navjeet(apparently head of budha dal UK)who nearly had a rape case against him last year...any memory of that or will you just brush that under the carpet like a complete fudu that you are. 

Secret undercover footage of Baba Surjeet Singh in Patiala Jail on Vimeo


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## taran0 (Nov 8, 2012)

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The reason for the sulla(peace) with balbiro was because many singhs were getting hurt(shot, etc), so he decided to calm things down a bit, I can understand his reasoning, but i dont see Nidar making any objections either when he tied the dastaar on 

as for him being a feem addict, i will relay on the message to India, as all I saw when I went to see him was him doing paath and encouraging the youngsters to do Naam Bani.

I am not a Nihang Singh - and it seems things are pretty messed up with the whole jail/balbiro sgpc thing. I just hope that Baba Surjit Singh gets out of jail soon and the Nihangs can sort their mess out.

as for this navjeet singh, i don't know who he is, when i went to see Baba Joginder Singh there were many singhs there. where have I sided with him?
where on my website do I support him? proof of this ?



Vanguard said:


> How about you've sided with navjeet(apparently head of budha dal UK)who nearly had a rape case against him last year...any memory of that or will you just brush that under the carpet like a complete fudu that you are.



..and also calling me names is no way to conduct an conversation. I know that you are getting upset and heated because a person that you respect and love is getting proven wrong, but this is no way to talk to people. NIdar started this by posting the information in the image below, and by supporting enemies of the sikhs liek the Nakli NIrankaris.

on nidars website http://www.shastarvidiya.org/introduction.jsp
he clearly says that if anyone can refute then they should do so.



> To such individuals we ask them to refute, if they can, what has been revealed here with clear objective scriptural, historical, rational and logical evidence. If the information presented here is proven to be in any way incorrect/mistaken/inaccurate then it will be revaluated accordingly.


so why are you getting vexed when i am trying to do exactly what nidar has asked of us to do.

my website has a response message board by which people can respond and send messages and i have accepted and published many of nidars students comments, the ones that have not been abusive or threatening.

None of nidars websites have an open forum for discussion so even when it is refuted the website has not been changed over the last 10 years.

i have been accused of being hateful, slanderous by trying to argue the points on his website, which he has clearly given everyone the freedom to do.......

and this idea of calling me hateful, and me being a slanderer first please read your own website and tell me is the following quotes taken from sarbloh.info not hateful and slanderous..
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## Chaan Pardesi (Nov 10, 2012)

who are all these "babas" who accept and reject as if they owned Sikhi.These are minions trying to hijack sikhi and project their own self egos.The problem is most Sikhs are not as educated as they think they are.Otherwise they would not fall into the traps of these faith hijackers with egos...I would line them all up one by one and shoot them.There would be less problems and disagreements in sikhi and it can flourish as a proper faith.With such goons around, duping and ruining it with their personal likes and dislikes Sikhi is being ruined.It appears these people are building their own sikhi on false lies, pretensions and claims!Shoot them ...out of the way, Sikhi would do well simply with Guru Granth Sahib and no other goon policing the rest of the panth with their weirdo ideas.


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## TigerStyleZ (Dec 6, 2012)

http://www.shastervidiya.org/university-sikh-societies-joint-statement-about-nidar-in-2004/

http://niddar.blogspot.de/2007/02/waheguroo-ji-ka-khalsa-waheguroo-ji-ki.html

Very INTERSTING Links!


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2012)

Chaan Pardesi said:


> who are all these "babas" who accept and reject as if they owned Sikhi.These are minions trying to hijack sikhi and project their own self egos.The problem is most Sikhs are not as educated as they think they are.Otherwise they would not fall into the traps of these faith hijackers with egos...I would line them all up one by one and shoot them.There would be less problems and disagreements in sikhi and it can flourish as a proper faith.With such goons around, duping and ruining it with their personal likes and dislikes Sikhi is being ruined.It appears these people are building their own sikhi on false lies, pretensions and claims!Shoot them ...out of the way, Sikhi would do well simply with Guru Granth Sahib and no other goon policing the rest of the panth with their weirdo ideas.



I would press the Like button for this, except the idea of "shooting" kept me from doing it. I agree that there are babas hijacking the faith. Shooting them will just make people like me in the the category as goondas who break up gurdwara services, punch Kaurs, grab the shastars, pull turbans off Singhs, just because they do not like the ragi or the katha.


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2012)

Here is one of the articles attached to the first link given by TigerStyleZ.  It is important to have it for the record on this thread to understand the depth of controversy.



> University Sikh Societies joint statement about Nidar in 2004
> Posted on November 20, 2012
> 
> Below you will see that Nidar is no stranger to controversy, in 2004 he cleverly mis-used Sikhs society names to hold seminars in London universities as part of a lecture series. Please read the joint statement from the Sikh Societies below once they realised the nature of Nidars seminars.
> ...


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2012)

TigerStyleZ said:


> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-...here are no problems with eating meat per se.


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## TigerStyleZ (Dec 6, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Just wondering, because I cannot locate it in the articles, where Niddar says that meat can be eaten from anywhere. The only thing the Maryada says is that meat killed in the halal way may not be eaten. There are no problems with eating meat per se.



Admin ji, I jost quoted what was said in the second article ( the one with the (bad) photos)


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2012)

TigerStyle Z

Oh yes, I realize that. In fact the two links were very interesting. Thanks for posting it because it really contributes to the thread. Sorry if i sounded critical. Did not mean it that way.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 6, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Just wondering, because I cannot locate it in the articles, where Niddar says that meat can be eaten from anywhere. The only thing the Maryada says is that meat killed in the halal way may not be eaten. There are no problems with eating meat per se.


 
spnadminji, I think you are getting confused here and thinking off track.
I will try and explain a little-

The Nihang maryada stresses the importance of 'Jhatka'.
_It also makes it clear that it is a sin to have meat for pleasure of the tongue_.

Therefore, the historical value of jhatka comes first and the meat is eaten secondary. This is the case in the goat or any animal.
 But with the goat, after the primary jhatka, then secondary, is  
   - use of the blood to annoint weapons, 
   - to conume the meat for mahaprashad.
   - use the skin to make tablas or drums..etc..

Since it is considered sinful to just be doing jhatka for pleasure of the tongue, it is also forbidden to purchase or eat meat from shops and restaurants etc.. 
This meat from other sources is called 'KHULLAH MAAS' and it is forbidden to consume this, therfore a nihang should only consume if he has personally participated or was in the group when jhatka was performed.

Basically no participation in jhatka then no meat consumption.
(In effect means no big macs or KFC..etc.)

But Mr Niddar was tryiing to say that it is OK to eat khullah maas and eat meat from other sources- which is clearly wrong once you understand the real significance of jhatka.


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2012)

Duh?  I don't think I am confused at all. I was asking where in the articles the comment was made by Mr. Niddar. TigerStyleZ ji told me where to find it. The rest of your post I already know.  SPN members and readers may also want to look at other posts about jhakha in the forum.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 6, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Duh? I don't think I am confused at all. I was asking where in the articles the comment was made by Mr. Niddar. TigerStyleZ ji told me where to find it. The rest of your post I already know.  SPN members and readers may also want to look at other posts about jhakha in the forum.


 
I apologise for wasting your time.
My bad, because I intervened inbetween your conversation with Tigerstylez ji, by trying to help!
You may delete the worthless post above by all means.

Sorry!


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2012)

LuckySingh ji

It might be good to leave your post because some readers may not know of the Nihang Maryada regarding Jhatka in detail. So I will leave it.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 7, 2012)

In the world of Sikh plurality, everyone wants recognition. Everyone will have their own interpretation of things, their own philosophy etc. We have to take what Guru gives us, Gurprasad. As long as we are in Darbar of Guru, we will be gifted with things which we can't find on our own in this world. That way, with new gifts of Guru, we will never go old.

ਗੂਜਰੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਜੀਉ ਕਾ ਪਦਾ ਘਰੁ ੪
Goojaree, Padas Of Jai Dayv Jee, Fourth House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਰਮਾਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਮਨੋਪਿਮੰ ਸਤਿ ਆਦਿ ਭਾਵ ਰਤੰ ॥
In the very beginning, was the Primal Lord, unrivalled, the Lover of Truth and other virtues.

ਪਰਮਦਭੁਤੰ ਪਰਕ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪਰੰ ਜਦਿਚਿੰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਗਤੰ ॥੧॥
He is absolutely wonderful, transcending creation; remembering Him, all are emancipated. ||1||

ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਮਨੋਰਮੰ ॥
Dwell only upon the beauteous Name of the Lord,

ਬਦਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤਤ ਮਇਅੰ ॥
the embodiment of ambrosial nectar and reality.

ਨ ਦਨੋਤਿ ਜਸਮਰਣੇਨ ਜਨਮ ਜਰਾਧਿ ਮਰਣ ਭਇਅੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Remembering Him in meditation, the fear of birth, old age and death will not trouble you. ||1||Pause||

ਇਛਸਿ ਜਮਾਦਿ ਪਰਾਭਯੰ ਜਸੁ ਸ੍ਵਸਤਿ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਤੰ ॥
If you desire to escape the fear of the Messenger of Death, then praise the Lord joyfully, and do good deeds.

ਭਵ ਭੂਤ ਭਾਵ ਸਮਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਅੰ ਪਰਮੰ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਮਿਦੰ ॥੨॥
In the past, present and future, He is always the same; He is the embodiment of supreme bliss. ||2||

ਲੋਭਾਦਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਪਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੰ ਜਦਿਬਿਧਿ ਆਚਰਣੰ ॥
If you seek the path of good conduct, forsake greed, and do not look upon other men's property and women.

ਤਜਿ ਸਕਲ ਦੁਹਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਦੁਰਮਤੀ ਭਜੁ ਚਕ੍ਰਧਰ ਸਰਣੰ ॥੩॥
Renounce all evil actions and evil inclinations, and hurry to the Sanctuary of the Lord. ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤ ਨਿਜ ਨਿਹਕੇਵਲਾ ਰਿਦ ਕਰਮਣਾ ਬਚਸਾ ॥
Worship the immaculate Lord, in thought, word and deed.

ਜੋਗੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਜਗੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਦਾਨੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਤਪਸਾ ॥੪॥
What is the good of practicing Yoga, giving feasts and charity, and practicing penance? ||4||

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇਤਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਧਿ ਪਦੰ ॥
Meditate on the Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the Universe, O man; He is the source of all the spiritual powers of the Siddhas.

ਜੈਦੇਵ ਆਇਉ ਤਸ ਸਫੁਟੰ ਭਵ ਭੂਤ ਸਰਬ ਗਤੰ ॥੫॥੧॥
Jai Dayv has openly come to Him; He is the salvation of all, in the past, present and future.


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## TigerStyleZ (Dec 7, 2012)

TigerStyleZ making Problems again 0just kidding, no spnadmin ji i am Not offended, luckyji was just trying to defend me,  because sometimes i am an Idiot, i guess mundahug 
Everything is fine and double thanks to Lucky ji for that Post, because i now learnt nihang marayada in abit more detail.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 8, 2012)

Referring to a post saying that Nidar Singh ran sarbloh.info

On the website itself it says:


> *www.sarbloh.info
> 
> This website has been privately created, funded, and maintained                  by Nihang Teja Singh*


How do we know Nidar Singh runs it?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 8, 2012)

Please check this page-
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_kartar.html


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 8, 2012)

Interesting. Hmm... will read the rest of it too.


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks Kanwaljit ji. Thanks because I already posted the link to sarbloh a few posts back. It was dismissed as the work of Niddar Singh. I said nothing at the time . However,  I want to see what the reaction is now that you have posted it. Maybe there will be more. There is more to say than "Oh! That site is maintained by Niddar Singh." Actually it is not Let's see how the conversation goes before I chime in again.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 8, 2012)

Hehe I had to search this page of course! I had previously explored on the link between Niddar Singh and this website. You can never be sure. Thanks to Bhagat Singh ji for making me update my references.

He has managed to polarized the youth in eastern Canada to some extent. He even visited Ottawa, I wanted to go and meet him or observe him. Didn't get a chance.


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## Chaan Pardesi (Dec 9, 2012)

Bhai Randhir Singh is NOT the founder of the Akhand Kirtani jatha.The jatha was founded by his worshippers after his death, in 1943, and propogated thereon,like the Bhindra mehta jatha that now claims ancestry to damdama.since 1977.

The Nihangs are NOT necessarily followers of "Puratan" Sikhi.Bhang consumption was NOT dictated by Guru Gobind Singh.They consume bhang as their main vein food.

The different tribes and groups of Nihangs all claim different ownership of so called purantan pratices, many of which have already been diluted depending where these  nihangs lived and originated from and under what babas!


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