# Sikh Of The Guru



## Astroboy (Mar 18, 2009)

Page 725, Line 11
*ਆਇ ਮਿਲੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਆਇ ਮਿਲੁ ਤੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
आइ मिलु गुरसिख आइ मिलु तू मेरे गुरू के पिआरे ॥ रहाउ ॥
Ā▫e mil gursikẖ ā▫e mil ṯū mere gurū ke pi▫āre. Rahā▫o.
Come, join with me, O Sikh of the Guru, come and join with me. You are my Guru's Beloved. ||Pause||
Guru Ram Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Astroboy (Mar 19, 2009)

Page 286, Line 16
*ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਹੇ ॥*
गुर का सिखु वडभागी हे ॥
Gur kā sikẖ vadbẖāgī he.
The Sikh of the Guru is very fortunate.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 19, 2009)

Namjap ji

Guru Fateh.

Gurbani does show us who our Guru- Teacher is. The question is who is the Student- the learner- the seeker- The Sikh?

By putting this question here, I am not asking for Gurbani Shabads that refer to that but a question to each of us and all of us should respond as individuals about our state of being and hence becoming a Sikh.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Astroboy (Mar 19, 2009)

Good, let's discuss. Sadhu is welcomed too. So is PK70 and all members.


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## Astroboy (Mar 19, 2009)

Page 618, Line 5
*ਬਖਸਿ ਲੈਹੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪਨੇ ਲਾਖ ਖਤੇ ਕਰਿ ਫੇਰੋ ॥੧॥*
बखसि लैहु साहिब प्रभ अपने लाख खते करि फेरो ॥१॥
Bakẖas laihu sāhib parabẖ apne lākẖ kẖaṯe kar fero. ||1||
Please forgive me, O Lord God Master; I have committed thousands of sins and mistakes. ||1||
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 19, 2009)

namjap said:


> Page 725, Line 11
> *ਆਇ ਮਿਲੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਆਇ ਮਿਲੁ ਤੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
> आइ मिलु गुरसिख आइ मिलु तू मेरे गुरू के पिआरे ॥ रहाउ ॥
> Ā▫e mil gursikẖ ā▫e mil ṯū mere gurū ke pi▫āre. Rahā▫o.
> ...


 

*                                                  Sikh/ ਸਿੱਖ*

Sikh word has been used in Sabd Guru as student/pupil/teaching/or a tuft of hair or head -ਚੇਲਾ, ਵਿਦਆਰਥੀ, ਸ਼ਿਸ਼। ਸ਼ਿਸ਼/ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ/ਦਾ/ਨੂੰ। ਸਿੱਖਿਆ। ਸਿੱਖ/ਸਮਝ! ਬੋਦੀ, ਚੋਟੀ, ਸਿਰ।
A Sikh is the student of truth who understands and live the teachings contained in Sabd Guru in thought, word and spirit at each step of daily life. One must take these teachings until these take you. The mechanical recitation of Nitname and other rituals performed daily etc with out understanding are all superstitions with out any spiritual benefit or ਖੇਪ. It is the development of virtues which makes it a devotional worship says Guru Nanak in his Japji;

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

_viṇ guṇ kīṯė bẖagaṯ na ho¬ė._

Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.           -----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 4-16
Guru Nanak further advises on good and bad acts as the basis for Divine justice in Raag Ramkali;

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਸਿਖ ਸਹੀ ॥ਲੇਖਾ ਰਬੁ ਮੰਗੇਸੀਆ ਬੈਠਾ ਕਢਿ ਵਹੀ ॥

_Nānak ākẖai rė manā suṇī¬ai sikẖ sahī. Lėkẖā rab mangėsī¬ā baiṯẖā kadẖ vahī._

O mind, listen to the True Teachings, Says Nanak, that God will call you to account by opening the ledger.                                                    -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 953-13

ਮੂੰਡੁ ਮੁਡਾਇ ਜਟਾ ਸਿਖ ਬਾਧੀ ਮੋਨਿ ਰਹੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥ਮਨੂਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਤ ਆਤਮ ਗਿਆਨਾ ॥

_Mūnd mudā¬ė jatā sikẖ bāḏẖī mon rahai abẖimānā. Manū¬ā dolai ḏah ḏis ḏẖāvai bin raṯ āṯam gi¬ānā._

Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it. Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul.                                       
                                                                        -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1013-5

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਨਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਹੋਵੈ ਤ ਸਨਮੁਖੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਅਹੁ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਛਡਿ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੈ ਪਰਣੈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਏ ॥ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਨਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਏ ॥                                                                 
_Kahai Nānak suṇhu sanṯahu so sikẖ sanmukẖ ho¬ė.Jė ko sikẖ gurū sėṯī sanmukẖ hovai. Hovai ṯa sanmukẖ sikẖ ko¬ī jī¬ahu rahai gur nālė. Āp cẖẖad saḏā rahai parṇai gur bin avar na jāṇai ko¬ė._

If a Sikh turns to the Guru with sincere faith, as sunmukh - his soul abides with the Guru. Renouncing selfishness and conceit, he remains always on the side of the Guru; he does not know anyone except the Guru. Says Nanak, listen, O Saints: such a Sikh turns toward the Guru with sincere faith, and becomes sunmukh.                                
                                     -----Guru Amardas, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 919-18 & 19, & 920-21

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵੈ ॥ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਦੋਖ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵੈ ਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ਜੋ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥

_Gur saṯgur kā jo sikẖ akẖā¬ė so bẖalkė uṯẖ har nām ḏẖi¬āvai. Uḏam karė bẖalkė parbẖāṯī isnān karė amriṯ sar nāvai. Upḏės gurū har har jap jāpai sabẖ kilvikẖ pāp ḏokẖ leh jāvai. Fir cẖaṛai ḏivas gurbāṇī gāvai bahḏi¬ā uṯẖ¬ḏi¬ā har nām ḏẖi¬āvai. Jo sās girās ḏẖi¬ā¬ė mėrā har har so gursikẖ gurū man bẖāvai. Jis no ḏa¬i¬āl hovai mėrā su¬āmī ṯis gursikẖ gurū upḏės suṇāvai. Jan Nānak ḏẖūṛ mangai ṯis gursikẖ kī jo āp japai avrah nām japāvai._

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased. Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name. One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that Gur Sikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind. That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that Gur Sikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that Gur Sikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.                             -----Guru Ramdas, Gauri Ki Var, AGGS, Page, 305

 ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਮਹਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਖਾਈ ॥ਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਠਾ ਸਿਖ ਦੇਵੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥

Har har gur meh bẖagaṯ rakẖā¬ī. Gur ṯuṯẖā sikẖ ḏėvai mėrė bẖā¬ī.
The Lord has implanted His devotional worship in the Guru. When the Guru is pleased, He bestows it upon His Sikh, O my siblings of Destiny.                                                                                           
                                                                  -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 367-12

Conclusion;
He who believes in One creator, equality for all, with understanding and deliberation of the Gur Bani contained in AGGS with reflection on its teachings in daily life in thought, word, and deed is a Sikh. 

ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਫਲਾ ਸੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥

_Man bacẖ karam parabẖ ėk ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;ė. Sarab falā so&shy;ī jan pā&shy;ė._

One who meditates on the One God in thought, word and deed - that humble being receives the fruits of all rewards.                                          -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 760-6 

The practice of the Sikh faith at present is quite different than what is contained in AGGS on the subject as illustrated above. Of course Sikhs came out of Hindus and definitely did not drop from the sky as the selected ones. Sikh Gurus simplified the faith in One Creator for all and advised to get rid of empty superstitious rituals. Sikh faith is no religion IMHO, it is a set of principles if followed honestly and truthfully will make an individual a better human believing in human equality and finding God in him self.

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 19, 2009)

> A Sikh is the student of truth who understands and live the teachings contained in Sabd Guru in thought, word and spirit at each step of daily life. One must take these teachings until these take you. The mechanical recitation of Nitname and other rituals performed daily etc with out understanding are all superstitions with out any spiritual benefit or ਖੇਪ. It is the development of virtues which makes it a devotional worship says Guru Nanak in his Japji;


 
Sir,  Bani is a high frequency that elevates the soul even if the person is not understanding what he is reading the person gains from the recitation of Bani.  Listening to Gurbani when you have no clue what is said is still elevating the soul.  



> The practice of the Sikh faith at present is quite different than what is contained in AGGS on the subject as illustrated above. Of course Sikhs came out of Hindus and definitely did not drop from the sky as the selected ones. Sikh Gurus simplified the faith in One Creator for all and advised to get rid of empty superstitious rituals. Sikh faith is no religion IMHO, it is a set of principles if followed honestly and truthfully will make an individual a better human believing in human equality and finding God in him self.



Sir, can you elaborate on what you mean by of course Sikhs came out of Hindus.


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## sadhu (Mar 19, 2009)

*Sikh is the one who is ready to learn, and is also ready to unlearn. *


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 19, 2009)

Singh said:


> Sir, Bani is a high frequency that elevates the soul even if the person is not understanding what he is reading the person gains from the recitation of Bani. Listening to Gurbani when you have no clue what is said is still elevating the soul.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, can you elaborate on what you mean by of course Sikhs came out of Hindus.


 
My dear Sir,

Guru Nanak and 3 succeeding Gurus were born as Hindus later converted to Guru Nanak's Philosophy, which generally is called a Sikh/Disciple.

I partly agree with you regarding Gurbani & music combined can draw one's attention towards it but cannot acheive spiritual growth with out *acting* on the message in daily life with truthfullness and honesty IMHO. Following hymns of Sabd Guru Could help us;

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ਗਾਵਿਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀ ॥ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਤੀਰਥਿ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਜਿਨ ਜਨਹੁ ਜਾਨੀ ॥

_Sayvak Sikh PoojaN Sabh Aaveh Sabh Gaaveh Har Har Ootam Baanee, Gaave-aa SuNe-aa Tin Ka Har Thaa-ey Paavai Jin Sat Gur Ki Aage-aa Sat Sat Kar Maanee, Bolhu Bhaa-ee Har Keerat Har Bhavjal Tirath, Har Dar Tin Kee Ootam Baat Hai Santahu Har Kathaa Jin Janhu Jaanee._

All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Akal Purkh, The Master. Their singing and listening is approved by the Akal Purkh; they accept the Order of the True Guru as True, totally True. Chant the It's Praises, O Siblings of Destiny; the Akal Purkh is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage in the terrifying world-ocean. They alone are praised in Its Court, O Saints, who know and understand sermon.                             -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 669-14 & 15

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਗਲੀਈ ਢੂਢੀਐ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ॥ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

_Gi¬ān na galī¬ī dẖūdẖī¬ai kathnā karṛā sār. Karam milai ṯā pā¬ī¬ai hor hikmaṯ hukam kẖu¬ār._

Wisdom cannot be found through mere words. To explain it is as hard as iron. When the Akal Purkh bestows Its Grace, then alone it is received; other tricks and orders are useless.
                                                      -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-1

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਤਜਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਮਰਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੇਤਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥

_Satgur No Sabh Ko Vaykhda Jayta Jagat Sansaar, Dithai Mukat Na Hova-ee Jichar Sabd Na Karay Veechaar, Ha-umai Mail Na Chuk-ee Naam Na Lagai Pi-aar, Ik Aapay Bakhas Milaa-i-an DubiDhaa Taj Vikaar, Nanak Ik Darsan Daykh Mar Milay Satgur Hayt Pi-aar._

All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru. One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Sabd. The filth of ego is not removed, and he does not enshrine love for the Naam. The Akal Purkh forgives some, and unites them with It self; they forsake their duality and sinful ways. O Nanak, some behold the Blessed Vision of the True Guru's Darshan, with love and affection; conquering their ego, they meet with the Akal Purkh.                               
                                                    -----Guru Amardas, Raag Vadhans, AGGS, Page, 594-11

ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਹੋਈ ॥

_Āp bīcẖārė so gi¬ānī ho¬ī._ 

One who contemplates his own self is truly wise.                                                                                       
                                                               -----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 152-4

ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

_Nāvhu ḏẖovahu ṯilak cẖaṛāvahu sucẖ viṇ socẖ na ho¬ī._

You may bathe and wash, and apply a ritualistic tilak mark to your forehead, but without inner purity, there is no understanding.
                                                          -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 903-3

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਜੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥ਲੋਕ ਪਤੀਣੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਅਯਾਨਾ ॥ਪੂਜਹੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ 

_Anṯar mail jė ṯirath nāvai ṯis baikunṯẖ na jānāŉ. Lok paṯīṇė kacẖẖū na hovai nāhī rām ėānā. Pūjahu rām ėk hī ḏėvā. Sācẖā nāvaṇ gur kī sėvā._

With filth within the heart, even if one bathes at sacred places of pilgrimage, still, he shall not go to heaven. Nothing is gained by trying to please others - the God cannot be fooled. Worship the One Divine God. The true cleansing bath is service to the Guru.                        
                                                                  -----Kabir, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 484-14 &15

ਪਾਠੁ ਪੜੈ ਨਾ ਬੂਝਈ ਭੇਖੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਰਸਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਸਮਾਇ ॥

_Paath Parhai Naa Boojh-ee Bhaykhee Bharam Bhulaa-ay Gurmatee Har Sadaa Paa-i-aa Rasnaa Har Sas samaa-ay._

Akal Purkh cannot be understood by reading scriptures; the deceitful pretenders are deluded by doubt. It is always found following the Guru’s teachings, and the tongue is permeated with Its Sublime Essence.   
                                                  -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, ASGGS, Page, 66-18 & 19


You have full liberty to take it as you wish.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 21, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> My dear Sir,
> 
> Guru Nanak and 3 succeeding Gurus were born as Hindus later converted to Guru Nanak's Philosophy, which generally is called a Sikh/Disciple.


 
By this same reasoning sir, you would consider Prithi Chand a Sikh after he did not give Guru Ram Das ji all of Guru Arjun Dev jis letters. Also Prithi Chand tried to poison Guru Arjun Dev ji's son Guru Har Gobind Singh Sahib ji. Also he tried to harm and harass Guru Arjun Dev ji. None of these behaviors is of a Sikh. Just because you are born into a Sikh family does not mean you are a Sikh.

Also tell me how one converts to Sikhi?

At the age of nine Guru Nanak Dev ji rejected the sacred thread. Also here is a Shabad by Guru Nanak Dev ji.

I was a minstrel, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service. To sing His Praises day and night, He gave me His Order, right from the start. My Lord and Master has summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence. He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory. The Ambrosial Nectar of the True Name has become my food. Those who follow the Guru.s Teachings, who eat this food and are satisfied, find peace. His minstrel spreads His Glory, singing and vibrating the Word of His Shabad. O Nanak, praising the True Lord, I have obtained His Perfection. || 27 || ang 150​ 
Guru Nanak Dev ji was not a Hindu in any shape or form. If you believe so then present your case.​ 



> I partly agree with you regarding Gurbani & music combined can draw one's attention towards it but cannot acheive spiritual growth with out *acting* on the message in daily life with truthfullness and honesty IMHO. Following hymns of Sabd Guru Could help us;


 
Let the voice the shabad is sung in be the music and virtue. Concentration is Key



> ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ਗਾਵਿਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀ ॥ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਤੀਰਥਿ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਜਿਨ ਜਨਹੁ ਜਾਨੀ ॥
> 
> _Sayvak Sikh PoojaN Sabh Aaveh Sabh Gaaveh Har Har Ootam Baanee, Gaave-aa SuNe-aa Tin Ka Har Thaa-ey Paavai Jin Sat Gur Ki Aage-aa Sat Sat Kar Maanee, Bolhu Bhaa-ee Har Keerat Har Bhavjal Tirath, Har Dar Tin Kee Ootam Baat Hai Santahu Har Kathaa Jin Janhu Jaanee._
> 
> All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Akal Purkh, The Master. Their singing and listening is approved by the Akal Purkh; they accept the Order of the True Guru as True, totally True. Chant the It's Praises, O Siblings of Destiny; the Akal Purkh is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage in the terrifying world-ocean. They alone are praised in Its Court, O Saints, who know and understand sermon. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 669-14 & 15


 
Yes one ultimately should understand what Guru ji is saying, but believe it or not understanding is acheived by simply concentrating and repeating Waheguru.



> ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਗਲੀਈ ਢੂਢੀਐ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ॥ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
> 
> _Gi¬ān na galī¬ī dẖūdẖī¬ai kathnā karṛā sār. Karam milai ṯā pā¬ī¬ai hor hikmaṯ hukam kẖu¬ār._
> 
> ...


Shabad Guru is beyond mere words. Concentration is the Key



> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਤਜਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਮਰਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੇਤਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥
> 
> _Satgur No Sabh Ko Vaykhda Jayta Jagat Sansaar, Dithai Mukat Na Hova-ee Jichar Sabd Na Karay Veechaar, Ha-umai Mail Na Chuk-ee Naam Na Lagai Pi-aar, Ik Aapay Bakhas Milaa-i-an DubiDhaa Taj Vikaar, Nanak Ik Darsan Daykh Mar Milay Satgur Hayt Pi-aar._
> 
> ...


 
yes this shabad is speaking on progressing on the Sikhi path and tells one to comtemplate over Gurbani to understand. If today I dont understand when concentrating then maybe tomorrow with concentration i will understand, this does not mean the last days Bani was read like a ritual.



> ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਹੋਈ ॥
> 
> _Āp bīcẖārė so gi¬ānī ho¬ī._
> 
> ...


 
This shows that one is moving forward in there growth, but does not make the previous growth a superstition or a ritual by listening or reading when not understanding. For the previous recitation without understand brings one to this point.



> ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
> 
> _Nāvhu ḏẖovahu ṯilak cẖaṛāvahu sucẖ viṇ socẖ na ho¬ī._
> 
> ...


 
Inner purity can be acheived also by concentrating on Gurbani, its only understand will come later. Gurbani is beyond ritualistic practices. The vibration of reading Gurbani is a force that is unexplainable.



> ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਜੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥ਲੋਕ ਪਤੀਣੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਅਯਾਨਾ ॥ਪੂਜਹੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥
> 
> _Anṯar mail jė ṯirath nāvai ṯis baikunṯẖ na jānāŉ. Lok paṯīṇė kacẖẖū na hovai nāhī rām ėānā. Pūjahu rām ėk hī ḏėvā. Sācẖā nāvaṇ gur kī sėvā._
> 
> ...


 
The part in this shabad that has do to with what we are talking about has already been explained above. 


> ਪਾਠੁ ਪੜੈ ਨਾ ਬੂਝਈ ਭੇਖੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਰਸਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
> 
> _Paath Parhai Naa Boojh-ee Bhaykhee Bharam Bhulaa-ay Gurmatee Har Sadaa Paa-i-aa Rasnaa Har Sas samaa-ay._
> 
> ...


 
This is speaking to those who sit and have no concentration on what is being said. Even though you don't understand what Guru ji is saying while reading, concentration on the Shabad still can be there.

Concentration on Gurbani when you are reciting is the key to understanding. I can recite today with concentration, but not understand and still attain virtues from the recitations of Gurbani


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 21, 2009)

Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Bani is a high frequency that elevates the soul even if the person is not  understanding what he is reading the person gains from the recitation of Bani.  Listening to Gurbani when you have no clue what is said is still elevating the  soul.


Pardon my ignorance but I did not understand what you mean by the above. Can you please elaborate this in lay man's terms?

1.What kind of tool did you use to find out Gubani's high frequency?

2.Do you mean if Gurbani had/has low frequency it is bad?

3.What do you mean by elevate the soul? 

4.Can you please elaborate in simple language what soul is and why does it need to be elevated? Why don't you like its present level whatever the soul may be and its level?

5.If one does not understand anything how can one find connection to it? 




> Let the voice the shabad is sung in be the music and virtue.* Concentration* is Key
> Yes one ultimately should understand what Guru ji is saying, but believe it or not understanding is acheived by simply *concentrating* and repeating Waheguru.
> Shabad Guru is beyond mere words. *Concentration* is the Key
> yes this shabad is speaking on progressing on the Sikhi path and tells one to comtemplate over Gurbani to understand. If today I dont understand when *concentrating* then maybe tomorrow with *concentration* i will understand, this does not mean the last days Bani was read like a ritual.
> ...


In one of your other posts mentioned above, you have used the word,*" Concentration"* several times.

6.Would you be kind enough to elaborate on that? What do you mean by the word and in what context it is used in each sentence?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 21, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Let the voice the shabad is sung in be the music and virtue.* Concentration* is Key
Yes one ultimately should understand what Guru ji is saying, but believe it or not understanding is acheived by simply *concentrating* and repeating Waheguru.
Shabad Guru is beyond mere words. *Concentration* is the Key
yes this shabad is speaking on progressing on the Sikhi path and tells one to comtemplate over Gurbani to understand. If today I dont understand when *concentrating* then maybe tomorrow with *concentration* i will understand, this does not mean the last days Bani was read like a ritual.
Inner purity can be acheived also by *concentrating *on Gurbani, its only understand will come later. Gurbani is beyond ritualistic practices. The vibration of reading Gurbani is a force that is unexplainable.
This is speaking to those who sit and have no *concentration* on what is being said. Even though you don't understand what Guru ji is saying while reading, *concentration *on the Shabad still can be there.
*Concentration *on Gurbani when you are reciting is the key to understanding. I can recite today with *concentration*, but not understand and still attain virtues from the recitations of Gurbani 

Mind can only be controlled by the Guru/Akal Purkh’s Grace and cannot be concentrated by individual
Will power. If possible he becomes a self willed person/ਮਨਮੁਖ. The Grace is another subject to be posted later.
Guru Amardas questions and answers it in Raag Asa and Guru Arjan responds in Raag Gauri;

Q. ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਵਸਿ ਆਵੈ ॥   

_Ih Manoo-aa Ki-o Kar Vas Aavai._ 

How can this mind come under control? 

A.ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਠਾਕੀਐ ਗਿਆਨ ਮਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ ॥ 

_Gur Parsaadee Thaakee-ai Gi-aan Matee Ghar Aavai._

By Guru's Grace, it is held in check; instructed in spiritual wisdom, it returns to its home. 
                                                           -----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 426-11

A. ਮਨੁ ਬਸਿ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹੋਇ ॥   

_Man Bus Aavai Nanaka Jay Pooran Kirpa Hoey._

The mind comes to be controlled, O Nanak, if the God blesses with Its Perfect Grace.                                            
                                                       -----Guru Arjan, Thiti Gauri, AGGS, Page, 298-17
Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## spnadmin (Mar 21, 2009)

_Mind can only be controlled by the Guru/Akal Purkh’s Grace and cannot be concentrated by individual
Will power. If possible he becomes a self willed person/ਮਨਮੁਖ. The Grace is another subject to be posted later.

Guru Amardas questions and answers it in Raag Asa and Guru Arjan responds in Raag Gauri;
_
vsgrewal ji_,

_There above you are offering an idea that is easy sometimes to miss. Concentration itself is directed by Akaal and cannot be driven or directed by the will of the individual. This is something which leads to a kind of spiritual arrogance. I think you for reminding me of this important idea.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 21, 2009)

Thanks aad ji .

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 21, 2009)

Here is a Gem from none other than the very same humble "Professor" who gave us the SGGS Darpan...Sahib Singh.
Its on "Concentration"
He calls it IKAARGTAA...one mindedness...
He says..*BHOJAN* ( food for the Body ) and *BHAJAN* ( Food for the Mann/Mind/soul) BOTH need absolute Ikaargta...concentration..one mindedness.
NEVER sit down to EAT..IF your mind is troubled...you have something else to do... DO THAT FIRST..and then come back to eat...and eat in absolute CONCENTRATION..only then does the Food give us entire benefit.
Its the norm now a days..especially among the younger generation to eat before the TV...watching the Game...or doing other things....same lack of concentration applies to us when we do Nitnem/read Bani/do ardass etc...our MANN wanders off very easily..the "effects" of both wanderings can be seen on OUR BODIES and on our SPIRITS.
Food for  the Body is for sustenance...and Food for the Mann is also for sustenence. Both must be taken in IKAARGTA..for maximum benefit. BHAJAN...BHOJAN...any doubt then why DEG....Guru Ka Langgar..Loh tapdee raheh..etc etc references to BHOJAN - food for the Physical BODY is mentioned so much in our religion.....Because our GURUS recognised the importance of BOTH. The Shabad da Langgar in the Gurus presence requires the very same Ikaargta (concentration) that the Guru Ka Langgar in the Langgar hall requires when we feed our Body. Ponder on this....


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 21, 2009)

Food and Naam both have to be relished. To relish one has to know or understand what one is eating or meditating on as Guru Amardas and Guru Arjan ponder upon;

ਥਾਲੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਤੈ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ ਹਰਿ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਮਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅਲਭੁ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਲਭੈ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ਏਹ ਮੁਦਾਵਣੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਕਢੀਐ ਸਦਾ ਰਖੀਐ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ਏਹ ਮੁਦਾਵਣੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਲਧੀ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਸੁ ਬੁਝਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਘਾਲਿ ॥

_Thālai vicẖ ṯai vasṯū pa¬ī¬o har bẖojan amriṯ sār. Jiṯ kẖāḏẖai man ṯaripaṯ¬ī¬ai pā¬ī¬ai mokẖ ḏu¬ār. Ih bẖojan alabẖ hai sanṯahu labẖai gur vīcẖār. Ėh muḏāvaṇī ki¬o vicẖahu kadẖī¬ai saḏā rakẖī¬ai ur ḏẖār. Ėh muḏāvaṇī saṯgurū pā¬ī gursikẖā laḏẖī bẖāl. Nānak jis bujẖā¬ė so bujẖsī har pā¬i¬ā gurmukẖ gẖāl._ 

Upon the plate, three things have been placed; this is the sublime, ambrosial food of the God. Eating this, the mind is satisfied, and the Door of Salvation is found. It is so difficult to obtain this food, O Saints; it is obtained only by contemplating the Guru. Why should we cast this riddle out of our minds? We should keep it ever enshrined in our hearts. The True Guru has posed this riddle. The Guru's Sikhs have found its solution. O, Nanak, he alone understands this, which the God inspires to understand. The Guru willed work hard, and find the Akal Purkh.                                  
                                                                       ----Guru Amardas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 645

ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿੰਨਿ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ॥ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾ ਪਇਓ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਅਧਾਰੋ ॥ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥ਏਹ ਵਸਤੁ ਤਜੀ ਨਹ ਜਾਈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਰਖੁ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰੋ ॥ਤਮ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਚਰਨ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੋ ॥

_Thāl vicẖ ṯinn vasṯū pa¬ī¬o saṯ sanṯokẖ vīcẖāro. Amriṯ nām ṯẖākur kā pa¬i¬o jis kā sabẖas aḏẖāro. Jė ko kẖāvai jė ko bẖuncẖai ṯis kā ho¬ė uḏẖāro. Ėh vasaṯ ṯajī nah jā¬ī niṯ niṯ rakẖ ur ḏẖāro. Ŧam sansār cẖaran lag ṯarī¬ai sabẖ Nānak barahm pasāro._

Upon this Plate, three things have been placed: Truth, Contentment and Contemplation. The Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of our God and Master, has been placed upon it as well; it is the Support of all. One who eats it and enjoys it shall be saved. This thing can never be forsaken; keep this always and forever in your mind. The dark world-ocean is crossed over, by grasping the Feet of the Akal Purkh; O Nanak, it is all the extension of God.                      
                                                                           -----Guru Arjan, Mundavani, AGGS, Page, 1429
Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## Astroboy (Mar 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Singh*
> 
> 
> _Sir, can you elaborate on what you mean by of course Sikhs came out of Hindus._


Only their genes are Indian or perhaps Afghan and now, Americans and Africans. 
What Sri KabirJi said about genes and physical body is something we have to learn from, 
and unlearn from our misconceptions.

ਕਬੀਰ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਸੁਰੰਗ  ॥
कबीर गरबु न कीजीऐ देही देखि सुरंग ॥
Kabīr garab na kījī▫ai ḏehī ḏekẖ surang.
Kabeer, do not be so proud, looking at your beautiful body.

ਆਜੁ ਕਾਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਤਜਿ ਜਾਹੁਗੇ ਜਿਉ ਕਾਂਚੁਰੀ ਭੁਯੰਗ  ॥੪੦॥
आजु काल्हि तजि जाहुगे जिउ कांचुरी भुयंग ॥४०॥
Āj kāliĥ ṯaj jāhuge ji▫o kāŉcẖurī bẖuyang. ||40||
Today or tomorrow, you will have to leave it behind, like the snake shedding its skin. ||40|| 



> Originally Posted  by* Sadhu*
> *Sikh is the one who is ready to learn, and is also ready to unlearn. *


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## Astroboy (Mar 22, 2009)

> Bani is a high frequency that elevates the soul even if the person is not understanding what he is reading the person gains from the recitation of Bani. Listening to Gurbani when you have no clue what is said is still elevating the soul.



I find a similarity here with Sri Kabir Ji's selok as follows:-

ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨਉ ਕੀ ਕੂਕਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਸਾਕਤ ਕੀ ਬੁਰੀ ਮਾਇ  ॥
कबीर बैसनउ की कूकरि भली साकत की बुरी माइ ॥
Kabīr baisna▫o kī kūkar bẖalī sākaṯ kī burī mā▫e.
Kabeer, even the dog of a devotee is good, while the mother of the faithless cynic is bad.

ਓਹ ਨਿਤ ਸੁਨੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਸੁ ਉਹ ਪਾਪ ਬਿਸਾਹਨ ਜਾਇ  ॥੫੨॥
ओह नित सुनै हरि नाम जसु उह पाप बिसाहन जाइ ॥५२॥
Oh niṯ sunai har nām jas uh pāp bisāhan jā▫e. ||52||
The dog hears the Praises of the Lord's Name, while the other is engaged in sin. ||52||


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## Astroboy (Mar 22, 2009)

> Shabad Guru is beyond mere words.



ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ  ॥
बावन अछर लोक त्रै सभु कछु इन ही माहि ॥
Bāvan acẖẖar lok ṯarai sabẖ kacẖẖ in hī māhi.
Through these fifty-two letters, the three worlds and all things are described.

ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ  ॥੧॥
ए अखर खिरि जाहिगे ओइ अखर इन महि नाहि ॥१॥
Ė akẖar kẖir jāhige o▫e akẖar in mėh nāhi. ||1||
These letters shall perish; they cannot describe the Imperishable Lord. ||1||


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 22, 2009)

Dear Sir,

We are on diffrent threads. I already answered your question the first time. I can go back to multiple references from AGGS that we are made up of 5 elements. Which is defined as a substance composed of atoms having an identical number of protons in each nucleus. Elements cannot be reduced to simpler substances by normal chemical means.
The Gurmukhi words ਤਤ/ਤਤਿ/ਤਤੁ/ਤੱਤ cannot be translated in to the English word element.
Mahan Kosh describes these as;

ਤਤ-Tat- (1) ਤਤ੍ਵ, ਅਸਲੀਅਤ, ਸਾਰ ਵਸਤੂ (2) ਭੂਤ, ਅਨਾਸਰ ਸਾਧਾਰਣ ਮੂਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ (ਕੋਸ਼) (3) ਉਥੇ, ਉਧਰ ਤਤ੍ਰ (4) ਆਤਮ ਤਤ (5) ਤੁਰੰਤ, ਫੌਰਨ, ਤਤਕਾਲ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ (6) ਤਦ, ਤਦੋ (7) ਨਿਚੋੜ, ਸਾਰ (8) ਬ੍ਰਹਮ, ਹਰੀ
ਤਤਿ-Tati- (1) ਸਾਰ ਨਾਲ, ਤਤ ਨਾਲ, ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਨਾਲ (2) ਵੀਚਾਰ (3) ਤਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਹਰਿ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮ.
ਤਤੁ-Tatu-(1) ਮੂਲ ਭਾਵ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਹਰਿ, ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ (2) ਅਸਲੀਅਤ (3) ਤਤੁ (4) ਸਾਰ, ਨਿਚੋੜ (5) ਅਨਸਰ, ਭੂਤ, ਸਾਧਾਰਨ ਮੂਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ (6) ਮਖਣ (7) ਅਸਲੀ, ਸ਼ੁਧ, ਠੀਕ (8) ਤਤਕਾਲ, ਤੁਰੰਤ, ਝਟਪਟ (9) ਗਿਆਨ (10) ਜੋਤ 
ਤੱਤ- Tut- (1) ਦੇਖੋ, ਤਤੁ। (2) ਵਿ- ਤਤ (ਪੌਣ) ਰੂਪ. ਹਵਾ ਜੇਹਾ ਚਾਲਾਕ. "ਚੜ੍ਯੋ ਤੱਤ ਤਾਜੀ". (ਪਾਰਸਾਵ).
IMHO all these words mean the essence, which cannot be so many things. So the translations of the hymns what ever it may be cannot be translated in to elements.
Still no one has answered about the following hymn of Guru Nanak being translated in to 27 elements i.e. from 5 these become 27;
ਬੀਸ ਸਪਤਾਹਰੋ ਬਾਸਰੋ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਖੋੜਾ ਨਿਤ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਾਰੈ ॥
Bīs sapṯāhro bāsro sangrahai ṯīn kẖoṛā niṯ kāl sārai.
Bring the twenty-seven elements of the body under your control, and throughout the three stages of life, remember death. -----Guru Nanak, Sri Raag, AGGS, Page, 23-18
This debate is getting no where and I have nothing further to say. Thanks for your coments.
Virinder


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