# A Marriage Question



## ExEc (Feb 23, 2010)

Both of my parents are really nice people and understand most of the  things. My mother and father are open minded, but my father is strict  with one thing, religion. If he gets angry at something he shows his  action with irritation, and then denies it that he ever said something  like that. He has made some racist comments and he believes that only  sikhi people should be allowed into our home.

What i'm trying to get at is this: My father is very religious and he  says that if I marry someone not from our religion, he will leave us.
Is there in any way I can show to him that he is wrong? Something from  Guru Granth Sahib? I know that Sikhism doesn't allow outside marriage,  but if I can point out to him that it Sikhi doesn't agree or point out  that we only have to be bound to our religion. Maybe I can convince him.

I don't believe in religion at all but I've seen all of the people in  the world as humans. I'm not any better than them and they aren't any  better than me. I don't see anyone by their religion or force my  thoughts upon anyone. I still don't want my dad to be unhappy if I ever  get married and it's a woman outside from Sikhi religion. I really care  about him, I want to help him because I respect him a lot, but I don't  want to be forced into selecting someone in sikhism.

If someone can help me I would be grateful. Also, if you can try to give  me the page of Guru Granth Sahib and what it says.

I can understand it's not exactly right to come to a Sikh forum for to  ask help about getting married outside of religion. But please, try to  see it in my perspective. I don't want him to leave or me being forced.


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## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *ExEc*
> 
> 
> _Both  of my parents are really nice people and understand most of the things.  My mother and father are open minded, but my father is strict with one  thing, religion. If he gets angry at something he shows his action with  irritation, and then denies it that he ever said something like that. He  has made some racist comments and he believes that only sikhi people  should be allowed into our home.
> ...



ExEc ji

I have highlighted in bold and color the places where I see some  mis-alignment.

You and your father have views regarding religion that are very  different. 
He says he will leave the family if you marry outside your religion.  There are other situations where the child is disowned if this happens.

I am not going to give you advice, other than to say it sounds like you  have the opportunity to communicate with your parents -- you say they  are intelligent and kind. 

Last but not least. You are not going to find advice in Sri Guru Granth  Sahib Maharaj either. Unlike many other scriptures, SGGS is not a  rule-book and was never intended to be a rule-book. The core idea of  marriage in Sikhism is that bride and bridegroom become one soul. Both  are encouraged to be the Soul Bride or spouse of the Beloved,  who is  Waheguru. 

ਮ: ੩ ॥  mehlaa 3.  Third Mehl: 
ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
Dhan pir ayhi na aakhee-an bahan ikthay ho-ay. 
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. 

ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ 
ayk jot du-ay moortee Dhan pir kahee-ai so-ay. ((3))  
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two   bodies. 

Ang  788 

Your father's values are derived directly from the Sikh Rehat Maryada  which is a code of conduct for Sikhs in their personal and corporate  lives.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Chapter  11, Article XVIII k. Persons                      professing faiths  other than the Sikh faith cannot  be joined                      in  wedlock by the Anand                      Karaj ceremony. [/FONT]
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct  & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

He apparently takes this very seriously. Many would say he deserves  respect for doing so. And if you read the information at the link above  it becomes very clear that the SRM's perspective and the understanding  of one light in two bodies as the Soul Bride are difficult to separate.

Try to find a solution that serves both your need and his, a common  ground.


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## ExEc (Feb 23, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *Narayanjot Kaur*
> 
> 
> _ExEc  ji
> ...


Yes he deserves respect for what he believes in. I'm not trying to take  anything away from him. The thing is, I just don't believe in any  religion. I don't want to have arguments or fights over religion with my  future wife. Me and my dad have been fighting about Sikhism for a long  time.
He wants me to attend Sikh camp and he dislikes all of my friends that  aren't Sikhs.
At the moment I'm in a relationship, me and my girlfriend have been  together for nearly 7 years. We haven't had any big problems with our  relationship.

So, I should respect my fathers views and leave my girlfriend. Get  married to Indian girl that has Sikhism for religion so he can be happy?


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## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2010)

ExEC ji

That is the question I do not want to answer because you have to search  your heart and consider all the consequences that come from either  choice you make. No one in an Internet forum can do that for you, or  should give you advice. Who can walk in your shoes? On the Internet  responses are projections of the person who replies. I would be very  reflective about that.


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## Caspian (Feb 24, 2010)

Simple Answer: Do what makes you happy :happy:

If you love this girl (and she is not of your religion) marry her. Its all about your happiness anyways. As a Sikh in a Sikh Family I can say, without a doubt, that sometimes your parents/family are more concerned about their image then your happiness. 

Keep in mind that, your happiness comes with a cost. (Like your father "leaving the family"). But I say, "call his bluff" and go for it, you'll probably be better off in the long run if you opt to make your decisions based on what makes you happy.


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## ExEc (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks Narayanjot Kaur. You're right, I'll have to try things better on my own.

Haha! That's a real nice answer Caspian, I've considering calling my fathers bluff before. I think he would still like to us to stay as a  family.
What you wrote about being happy in the long run, how did that EVER skip my mind?
I've been so caught up with thinking about my father and what would my relatives would think, that I  forgot to tell myself that it'll make me happy.

Thank you so much!


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## Randip Singh (Feb 24, 2010)

ExEc said:


> Both of my parents are really nice people and understand most of the things. My mother and father are open minded, but my father is strict with one thing, religion. If he gets angry at something he shows his action with irritation, and then denies it that he ever said something like that. He has made some racist comments and he believes that only sikhi people should be allowed into our home.<?"urn:fficeffice" />





ExEc said:


> What i'm trying to get at is this: My father is very religious and he says that if I marry someone not from our religion, he will leave us.
> Is there in any way I can show to him that he is wrong? Something from Guru Granth Sahib? I know that Sikhism doesn't allow outside marriage, but if I can point out to him that it Sikhi doesn't agree or point out that we only have to be bound to our religion. Maybe I can convince him.
> 
> I don't believe in religion at all but I've seen all of the people in the world as humans. I'm not any better than them and they aren't any better than me. I don't see anyone by their religion or force my thoughts upon anyone. I still don't want my dad to be unhappy if I ever get married and it's a woman outside from Sikhi religion. I really care about him, I want to help him because I respect him a lot, but I don't want to be forced into selecting someone in sikhism.
> ...




*Point 1*
<o> </o>
Your father should not be blackmailing you like this.
<o> </o>
*Point 2*
<o> </o>
You too should respect your father’s wishes.
<o> </o>
*Point 3*
<o> </o>
Sikhs come in all races and colours. There are white Sikhs, Black Sikhs, Chinese Sikhs, Punjabi Sikhs etc etc, so be clear whether you mean outside Sikh or outside Punjabi.
<o> </o>
*Point 4*
<o> </o>
Guru Gobind Singh ji has stated “Maanas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano”. Recognise the Human Race as One!
<o> </o>
A true Sikh is never racist.
<o> </o>
*Point 5*
<o> </o>
Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?
<o> </o>
*Point 6*
<o> </o>
Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?


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## ExEc (Feb 24, 2010)

*Point 1*
 <o> </o>
 Your father should not be blackmailing you like this.

It doesn't stop him. I actually told him that he was blackmailing me, he denies it. He says it's not blackmailing.
<o> </o>
*Point 2*
 <o> </o>
 You too should respect your father’s wishes.

I don't interfere whatever he believes in on what he does. I don't question but rather help if he needs me or if he doesn't, i'll be always there for him.
<o> </o>
*Point 3*
 <o> </o>
 Sikhs come in all races and colours. There are white Sikhs, Black Sikhs, Chinese Sikhs, Punjabi Sikhs etc etc, so be clear whether you mean outside Sikh or outside Punjabi.

Outside of both.
<o> </o>
*Point 4*
 <o> </o>
 Guru Gobind Singh ji has stated “Maanas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano”. Recognise the Human Race as One!
 <o> </o>
 A true Sikh is never racist.

His beliefs are that everyone else are lesser and Sikhism is the best. I don't speculate on it or anything because I'm more than sure of it.
<o> </o>
*Point 5*
 <o> </o>
 Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?

I've questioned my father and people from Gurdwara when they tried to slightly force religion on me. They tell me to believe in whatever they want because they can't answer. My father calls me stupid if he says something and I question him on it. Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindu people have their to question me and forced me in one way or another.

I don't  tell people what to believe in or question their beliefs.
If Sikhism considers everyone equal, it shouldn't matter whatever they believe in, as long as they are a good person. It's the beliefs and thoughts that differs every human being. If we can't marry someone that we love or think that we should only marry people from our own religion, that question defeats the whole "equality" argument.
It's not like I'm a bad person or that I don't care for anyone. I care for everyone in this world, I just believe that I should be a good person.

Sikh people that I've met from Gurdrawa always question me and don't look too friendly when I question them back. If they are able to tell what they think is the most right, I should be able to tell my side.
They attend and follow everything that is written in Guru Granth Sahib. One of the families I know, their is mother divorced. Yet they talk about not marrying outside of the religion just because of soul bonding. That's just one example out of many others. They think of other people are less intelligent than them. There have been some times where they made some really unfriendly remarks toward other religions.

Now I know not all of the people are like that, and you might say that I've had bad encounters because that's not how Sikhs should be. I've seen and been in bad situations all my life, since birth. Mostly because of religion and I denied that it was because of religion. Later on, I just had to accept it after the age of 23. It wasn't just because of Sikhism but other religions as well. 

My father thinks if i marry someone outside of our religion, i'll leave them and won't care for them. The reality is that wherever I am, I'm not going to let go of them or stop caring for them. They are the most precious thing to me. At weekends my father watches the religious program on tv, I sit down and just listen because it makes him happy. He tends to tell me that I should sit with him and listen, I do that. It's not that I want to say that whatever they are saying on TV is completely wrong or anything. It's just to make him happy.
And yes, he does get annoyed if I don't sit and watch it with him.
<o> </o>
*Point 6*
 <o> </o>
 Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?

Yes, I've explored them. The only things I've heard so far are -Our culture needs to be preserved- or -When Sikhs marry they truly belong to each other and help each other out in every situation.-

If I ask them -What culture?- they can't give me a straight answer. Or simply -So only we have a culture that is better than others? We are all still humans so what does it matter-

When Sikhs marry they belong to each other, well I've seen marriages that are broken, unhappy and quite weird Sikh families. Also Aren't we all equal?
So far, they haven't been able to answer me with a straight answer rather go through a lot of stuff that doesn't even matter in marriage.
I guess he wants the best for me, and he think the best way I can get happiness with marriage is if I marry someone in our own religion. I can see that point but he doesn't even want to meet my girlfriend or give her a chance. He tells me that no girl should be allowed in our house unless they are from our own religion.


Please, I hope this whole subject doesn't turn into why I don't believe in any religion. I'm here as a human, a human that needs help.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 24, 2010)

ExEc said:


> *Point 1*
> <o> </o>
> 
> *Point 5*
> ...



One thing for sure at SPN, no one will force any religion on you.

On Point 5 and 6, you haven't answered it.

Just because you see something from another's point of view it does not mean you necessarily believe in it.

I study Sufism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and other faiths. Does not mean I believe in their traditions, culture and way of doing things, but I understand EXACTLY why they do them. I this way I try not to judge them.

From what you are saying, you seem to have covered all bases, considered all possibilities, and basically pre-judged every scenario, based on what I can see .

May I ask what books you have read on Sikhism, because it will give me a clearer understanding of YOUR understanding.


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## Caspian (Feb 24, 2010)

In his defense I would like to answer Point 5 and 6

Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?<o>

A deeper understanding of the Sikh faith would only run contrary to his fathers point of view: That Sikhs are superior and marriage should be strictly within the Sikh religion. There is an inherit gap between theory and practice in the Sikh community. In theory we should be open-minded, non judgemental and understanding. In practice, the lot of us are anything but (like his father, and my father for that matter: its either the sikh-way or the high-way ). But the question could be reworded and asked to the father as well: "Have you ever tried to explore your Son's ideas, rather then dismissing them?" 

</o>Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?

I value most (if not all) of these cultures and traditions except for the culturally ingrained tradition of "endogamy"  This is really a moot question. If the answer is "No" (which it most likely is) then nothing is stopping him from marrying the girl he wants (which is the case) the only thing is "Can I get my father to understand eventually?". If the answer is "yes" then their is no point to asking the questions because Endogamy itself is cultural and traditional value that one would want to preserve through Endogamy yet it is that same value of Endogamy that is in his way (therefore, the answer becomes a No).


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 24, 2010)

ExEc,

Guru Fateh.

Welcome to the forum. What I gather from your posts is the communication problems between yourself and your father.

First and foremost Sikhi is not a religion. It is based on pragmatism. Hence the name Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker. By being a student one becomes open minded. So, what I  can see from your posts is that you are against Sikhi not any other religion because you did not mention that your girl friend is an atheist or belongs to any other religion. The reason could be the spat, the inner disdain for your Dad but the outer " respect" which is nothing but a facade.

As you have said several times that your dad gets angry at you which shows that he has not studied Gurbani which gives us the tools to improve our behaviour. It helps us to breed goodness within. So, if you give yourself a chance to study what Gurbani says rather than rejecting it by justifying that it is another dogmatic religion, you will see how it changes your life. Don't we all want to become better people irrespective of our faith, hue or creed?

So, just give yourself a chance to breed goodness within which you can also share with your girl friend rather than rejecting some thing that you have not even tried. 

Knowledge is our friend, not our enemy. I let my kids study all kinds of religions.

Following is the essay that my son wrote for his 9th grade English class.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational-stories/28767-unfair-discrimination.html

Take care and do not let your inner windows close on you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ExEc (Feb 24, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> One thing for sure at SPN, no one will force any religion on you.
> 
> On Point 5 and 6, you haven't answered it.
> 
> ...




I think Caspian actually gave a really good answer for that. That's somewhat I would've written. He is old, so I don't expect him to see things from my point of view. Also, i'm not trying to make myself comfortable with marriage outside of religion. I'm trying to satisfy my parents and trying to make sure that which ever girl I marry has a warm welcome to our family. My mother knows that we should marry a person that we are truly sure about and can trust. She was brought up in very strict and very religious family (Not Sikhism). She feels sorry that I can't bring my girlfriend into our home, because she would really like to meet my girlfriend.

I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them. And please don't tell me to read any, if I took everyones opinion on what to read I think my life would pass by quite quickly. Through out the history there have been many religions and I don't really feel like exploring each and every one of them. If people want to have beliefs then go ahead. I'm not going to judge them any better or any less than myself.



Tejwant Singh said:


> ExEc,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Yes, my girlfriend is Atheist and so am I. I'm sorry but when you say "chance to breed goodness", do you even know me? You can't tell me if I'm a good or a bad person. Even the "do not let your inner windows close on you" is something  a preacher would write. Yep, all the people that believe in something else have closed their inner windows and stopped "breeding goodness".

Please, can you stop trying to convince me to read through Sikhism? What if I still don't agree? What if I have even more questions than answers?

Yes, I can get everything I wrote the opposite. That what if i started to agree? What if I got all of the answers I needed? Well...through peoples behavior and the way they do things, I'm leaning towards not agreeing or getting any answers.

Knowledge is my friends, yes that's true. That's why I've picked up science.

It's good that your kid is learning about religion, because that's how people can't deny God at all. Even if they try to think there is no god, their personal belief system would strike back. A lot of self-anger and conflicting thoughts...yep, I've been there.

Alright, It looks like I just assumed something. I'm just guessing that you don't teach your kid that.

If my kids would want to believe in God then be it. If they didn't then be that. I won't tell them anything, except that being a good person always brings happiness. Both to other peoples lives and their own. Goodness can over come everything, it's up to you what's good and what's bad. I'll always be there to give my advice that makes sense to you and I'll always love you.

Why? Because my mother did this, she is like a goddess for me. I've always been open to her about everything. Just because I respect her so much and has always been there for me. I'm not going to go into details of what she has done. I don't want to share too much personal information.


I'm sorry if I sound harsh but, please can we just leave this subject? If you ask me questions like that, i'll just ask you even more questions about your belief.

Like I said, I want help as a human being. I don't want people to give me their opinions on religions. Please don't tell me Sikhism isn't a religion, I've heard that one before and you can think of me as an arrogant person. But I just don't want to argue if it's a religion or not. I want help from a person, not someone who wishes to ask me how much I know about their religion. That just gives me the impression of you trying to do what every other religion has done so far.

PS: I don't want to attack Sikhism or question it here. So that's why I just don't want to talk about how much I know of Sikhism.


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 24, 2010)

ExEc said:


> I think Caspian actually gave a really good answer for that. That's somewhat I would've written. He is old, so I don't expect him to see things from my point of view. Also, i'm not trying to make myself comfortable with marriage outside of religion. I'm trying to satisfy my parents and trying to make sure that which ever girl I marry has a warm welcome to our family. My mother knows that we should marry a person that we are truly sure about and can trust. She was brought up in very strict and very religious family (Not Sikhism). She feels sorry that I can't bring my girlfriend into our home, because she would really like to meet my girlfriend.
> 
> I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them. And please don't tell me to read any, if I took everyones opinion on what to read I think my life would pass by quite quickly. Through out the history there have been many religions and I don't really feel like exploring each and every one of them. If people want to have beliefs then go ahead. I'm not going to judge them any better or any less than myself.
> 
> ...



Exec,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what is the connection between what I wrote and your response.  I am not a preacher nor do I pretend or intend to be. I am a Sikh, a student, a learner, a seeker like anyone else in this world irrespective of his/her creed, hue or faith.

You feel offended. I do apologise for that. It was not the intention. It is you who talked about your relationship with your father and other things in your posts. I have no idea what your gripe is. It would help a bit if you explained it.

We are here to interact and it is OK to disagree. No one is trying to impose anything on anyone here. As you have your opinions and are free to express them here, so do others including myself.

Only you know why you are reluctant to sharing about your knowledge of Sikhi. Atheism itself is an ism. There are some threads in this forum about your ism too. Please read them and share your opinion with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 25, 2010)

ExEc,

Do what makes you happy.


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## roab1 (Feb 25, 2010)

Love makes you fickle minded. How would science define love? If God doesnt exist neither does love. You would feel no remorse if your girlfriend was to die 2morrow unless you believed in something. 



> Knowledge is my friends, yes that's true. That's why I've picked up science.



Love for a beautiful woman caused downfall of many a great man. _thats knowledge_

There is no such thing as love. _thats science_

sorry for going of topic. 

And by the way, pick up any religious scripture and its all about LOVE for GOD.


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## Caspian (Feb 25, 2010)

*Love makes you fickle minded. How would science define love? If God doesnt exist neither does love. You would feel no remorse if your girlfriend was to die 2morrow unless you believed in something.

*Philosophically speaking (from a scientific perspective, im a major in cognitive systems). Love is a "qualia." Qualia are concepts that cannot be explained but must be experienced. So when your asking for a scientific definition of love—I cant give you one. Moreover, I wouldnt even be able to give you a spiritual or religious definition of love—you would still have to experience love first hand. 

For example, another "Qualia" is the color "red." No matter how hard I try to describe it to you (I can call it "warm," a lightwave of 700 micrometers in wavelength or w/e) you will never understand "red" until you experience red. 

Now... for us to say something like "If God doesnt exist neither does *red*" would be kind of ridiculous. We would either have to concede the possibility that 

1) God's existance is not a neccesary requirment for qulia such as Love or "Red"
2) God's existance is a neccesary requirment for the existance of everything and not just Love

And if its the latter case. There was no point asking for a scientific definition to begin with—you'd be quite happy with the "God did it" definition. 

Thats an answer from the "Computational Theory of Mind" scientific and philosophical approaches  Its more commonly used to argue against the possibility of programming a "AI System" that can feel love or see red in the same sense that Humans do.  (Personally, I believe that love and red are programmable, we just havent figured out how  but even then I dunt think God's existance is a neccessary pre req for the existance of love).


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## Randip Singh (Feb 25, 2010)

ExEc said:


> I think Caspian actually gave a really good answer for that. That's somewhat I would've written. He is old, so I don't expect him to see things from my point of view. Also, i'm not trying to make myself comfortable with marriage outside of religion. I'm trying to satisfy my parents and trying to make sure that which ever girl I marry has a warm welcome to our family. My mother knows that we should marry a person that we are truly sure about and can trust. She was brought up in very strict and very religious family (Not Sikhism). She feels sorry that I can't bring my girlfriend into our home, because she would really like to meet my girlfriend.
> 
> I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them. And please don't tell me to read any, if I took everyones opinion on what to read I think my life would pass by quite quickly. Through out the history there have been many religions and I don't really feel like exploring each and every one of them. If people want to have beliefs then go ahead. I'm not going to judge them any better or any less than myself.
> 
> .


 

No offense, but I am more interested in your level of knowledge. There are some massive statements you have made, and I am keen to learn what is the basis for those statments.

From what I gather you have limited knowledge on Sikhism. Your judgements seemed to be informed by your fathers narrow view and some biggoted people you have met (yes there are biggoted Sikhs).

I do not think you are in any position to make a judgement or persuade your father on anything yet because your own knowledge is incomplete.

How can I challenge an Accountant when I do know how to count?

I say this not only about knowledge about Sikhism, but knowledge about life.

Your actions seems to be guided by what YOU want. Your wants and needs.Mun. Amongst the Sikhs (and Philosophers), self will.

You have not explored outwardly enough to make judgements, and yet you have asked us to make a jusgement on your relationship here.

You need to go and contemplate about what your actions are in this, not other peoples. Are you being guided by Egotism? Are you being guided by lust? What are your true motives? Are looking for justification for those motives?


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## Caspian (Feb 25, 2010)

*Please could you tell me what books you have read on Sikhism?* - Randip

In the passage you quoted. He said: "I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them."

*EDIT
*No Problem, was just helping you out  will not "butt-in" any further.
Thought you might have missed the quote, thats all.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 25, 2010)

Caspian said:


> *Please could you tell me what books you have read on Sikhism?* - Randip
> 
> In the passage you quoted. He said: "I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them."


 

No offense but can you not but in when I aam asking him questions.

also note the change to my post.


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## ExEc (Feb 25, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Exec,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Tejwant Singh-ji. No need to apologize, I'm sorry for over reactive. It was late yesterday and there had been an argument between me and my father. I'm really sorry about that.

Yea, The ism thing. I'm sure you can put ism behind nearly anything. hmm, let me put it in a simpler way. I don't believe in God and nor do I see any need for one. Even if I have small thoughts about there being a God, It can be any type of god from any type of religion. All i believe in is, if you're a good person and there might be a God. As long as I'm a good person, it wouldn't matter if I follow any religion or not.




> Caspian


Wow Caspian! The things you write are nearly as same as my thoughts. Thank you, for some reason it feels like you understand me quite well. Hmm, have you gone through the same situation?




> Love makes you fickle minded. How would science define love? If God doesnt exist neither does love. You would feel no remorse if your girlfriend was to die 2morrow unless you believed in something.
> 
> Love for a beautiful woman caused downfall of many a great man. _thats knowledge_
> 
> ...



Umm, You do know, downfall of science has been religion right? Science actually has an answer for that, they can't directly explain what love is. I don't think religion can explain love either. Like science it just HITS at what love is. On the other hand science evolves and some day it might be able to explain love.

Also, yes I am in love but it's not like i'm completely blinded by something. I actually don't even need to care about my father, me and my girlfriend would be living together. So why does it matter that I'm actually trying to find things out and make sure that he isn't disappointed of me. Also, my cousin had to merry someone from their own religion. His parents forced him into it (yea, it sounds like old times) now he doesn't care about his wife or his child. Because he doesn't get along with his wife. What good was that?
Can I say, that religion has been the downfall of humanity as much as love has?

I think even a scientist would disagree that we won't feel any remorse. Even animals feel remorse. Everything living has feelings. Evolution can actually explain why but not fully, and the way they explain it makes sense.
You should be happy if your whole family dies. They are going to god, of course you will miss them but you'll die soon too. So be happy about dying, you'll be getting to a better place! Why do we cry instead of celebrating a persons departure to a better place. It makes as much sense as crying.


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## ExEc (Feb 25, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> No offense, but I am more interested in your level of knowledge. There are some massive statements you have made, and I am keen to learn what is the basis for those statments.
> 
> From what I gather you have limited knowledge on Sikhism. Your judgements seemed to be informed by your fathers narrow view and some biggoted people you have met (yes there are biggoted Sikhs).
> 
> ...




Yep, but knowledge is incomplete. So is yours, maybe you're going the wrong way all together. Stop pointing out knowledge will you? It will just go against yourself and against my dads views.

Ofcourse, I'm not saying I have only met bad Sikhs. I've met a lot of good hearted Sikhs too. That goes for every other religion.

Ok, if you want to take up the path of making examples out of things like the "How can I challenge an Accountant when I do know how to count?"
How do you know that Sikhism is correct or why do you even believe in it, through out the human history there have been sooooo many religions.

Alright, I can simply say this. All of what you're saying is Satans work. Prove me wrong. Yes that is totally ridiculous but it makes sense. Whatever you say, I can simply say "Satan does it."

Look, he doesn't want to see things in my way. I've already asked many questions about Sikhism. As far as I know, I'm not going to gain any thing too important. I might as well read philosophy because all of the religions think that they are asking the deepest questions and have been given the best answers.

[SARCASM]What's driving me? Well, i'm driven by lust! I'm driven by selfishness! Because, you know I don't want to have a common ground for me and my father to stand on. All I want is things for myself, nope I don't care about my father at all. I won't be living with him anyway, why should I care? My girlfriend will never get to meet my parents and how lovely they are or vice-versa and that makes me happy! So yes, i'm real selfish.[/SARCASM]

Really Randip Singh ji...the only thing my father can come up with is "I don't want our religion to end" that's about it. Nothing more at all, I haven't had many girlfriends, well to be precise. I haven't been together with anyone else and both me and my girlfriend shared our bodies for the first time...with each other and no one else . I want to merry her, I want to her to meet my mother and my father. I want both of my parents to know that i've chosen the right one. Actually my mother believes in me...she is the only one.
He is willing to stand on his ground without even giving my girlfriend a chance...

I'm sorry but do you see where this is leading? Pull back and take a look, more than half of the comments have been about me trying to read about Sikhism.I've searched answers for my questions about Sikhism. And as far as I can tell, it's not going to help me in any way. Not many of them have been about my father.


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## Caspian (Feb 25, 2010)

*Wow Caspian! The things you write are nearly as same as my thoughts. Thank you, for some reason it feels like you understand me quite well. Hmm, have you gone through the same situation?

*I haven't "_gone"_ through the same situation but I'm actually "_going" _through the same situation rite now lol . So yeah, I'm sure we understand one another quite well. If you plan on sticking around this group, feel free to update me with how it turns out for you . I plan to stay around so I can atleast provide an understanding voice for people like us.


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## ExEc (Feb 25, 2010)

Caspian said:


> *Wow Caspian! The things you write are nearly as same as my thoughts. Thank you, for some reason it feels like you understand me quite well. Hmm, have you gone through the same situation?
> 
> *I haven't "_gone"_ through the same situation but I'm actually "_going" _through the same situation rite now lol . So yeah, I'm sure we understand one another quite well. If you plan on sticking around this group, feel free to update me with how it turns out for you . I plan to stay around so I can atleast provide an understanding voice for people like us.



Oh, I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope it resolves itself and you, your partner and both families can be happy.
I'll be sure to update you on it. My mother can understand so I've got a person in my family that understands both my and my fathers situation. Hopefully, you have one as well.
I'll talk with my mother and I think she can find a way to help both me and my father. If she comes up with anything, i'll let you know.

I'm just trying to take everything slowly, it's quite unfair for everyone if I take hasty decisions. So i'll give my father some space to think and some for myself. So one day he'll maybe understand that he isn't losing anything. I've still got all of his teaching and i'll pass them on to my children in the future.

It feels good to know that someone can understand me. At the same time it feels horrible that someone has to go through the same situation. I would never wish anyone going through this kind of situation...or any other bad situation.

I think I've gotten everything I can get at the moment. Thank you everyone for helping me. Thank you for your time and replies, I appreciate all of them.


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2010)

Sorry to seem unsympathetic, ExEc ji, but do we want to share* your *intimate moments with a potential Internet audience of millions on a Sikh forum?


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## Randip Singh (Feb 25, 2010)

Caspian said:


> *Please could you tell me what books you have read on Sikhism?* - Randip
> 
> In the passage you quoted. He said: "I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them."
> 
> ...



Sorry mate, I was a bit rude above.

Apologies. I didn't mean to be, but I was trying to be funny I think, but when I re-read, it was rude.

Sorry


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## Randip Singh (Feb 25, 2010)

ExEc said:


> Yep, but knowledge is incomplete. So is yours, maybe you're going the wrong way all together. Stop pointing out knowledge will you? It will just go against yourself and against my dads views.



Wow Hold on.

You have a real nerve.

You come to this forum, basically for approval for YOUR actions and when your own shortcomings are pointed out you try and turn it?

That is not good behaviour and you certainly are not doing yourself any favours.

I do have issues with my father.
I do not have issues with Sikh beliefs.
I do not have issues with God.
I do not have issues with having an Atheist Girlfriend.



ExEc said:


> Ofcourse, I'm not saying I have only met bad Sikhs. I've met a lot of good hearted Sikhs too. That goes for every other religion.
> 
> Ok, if you want to take up the path of making examples out of things like the "How can I challenge an Accountant when I do know how to count?"
> How do you know that Sikhism is correct or why do you even believe in it, through out the human history there have been sooooo many religions.



If I do not know how to count then how can I challenge it?

Here is news for you. Not only do I know how to count, I know how to do it to postgrad and beyond, in other words I have a deep understanding on many faiths, and a lot more than you from your own admission.

I do not know what religion is right, but I know what suits me because I have studied the major ones.

Wheras YOU (by your own admission) have studied none.

That puts me in a far better position than you.



ExEc said:


> Alright, I can simply say this. All of what you're saying is Satans work. Prove me wrong. Yes that is totally ridiculous but it makes sense. Whatever you say, I can simply say "Satan does it."



Err no.

Sikhism has no concept of Satan, and I do not believe in Satan. Satan in Sikhism, is used as a metaphor.

It is used as a metaphor to describe those that dwell in self.




ExEc said:


> Look, he doesn't want to see things in my way. I've already asked many questions about Sikhism. As far as I know, I'm not going to gain any thing too important. I might as well read philosophy because all of the religions think that they are asking the deepest questions and have been given the best answers.



Why should your father see things your way? What have YOU done in YOUR life for him to think...."aahh yes I should listen to my wise son?"




ExEc said:


> What's driving me? Well, i'm driven by lust! I'm driven by selfishness! Because, you know I don't want to have a common ground for me and my father to stand on. All I want is things for myself, nope I don't care about my father at all. I won't be living with him anyway, why should I care? My girlfriend will never get to meet my parents and how lovely they are or vice-versa and that makes me happy! So yes, i'm real selfish.



I don't do sarcasm, as it is the lowest form of humour. You are letting yourself down, no one else.



ExEc said:


> Really Randip Singh ji...the only thing my father can come up with is "I don't want our religion to end" that's about it. Nothing more at all, I haven't had many girlfriends, well to be precise. I haven't been together with anyone else and both me and my girlfriend shared our bodies for the first time...with each other and no one else . I want to merry her, I want to her to meet my mother and my father. I want both of my parents to know that i've chosen the right one. Actually my mother believes in me...she is the only one.
> He is willing to stand on his ground without even giving my girlfriend a chance...



An interesting story my father told me. A mother is such a creature that if her child asked her, mother, will you cut off your arm for me, she will do it. The father is the one who will be there to tell her, stop!!!

Sounds as if you are manipulating your mothers love for you.



ExEc said:


> I'm sorry but do you see where this is leading? Pull back and take a look, more than half of the comments have been about me trying to read about Sikhism.I've searched answers for my questions about Sikhism. And as far as I can tell, it's not going to help me in any way. Not many of them have been about my father.



I do not really care whether you read about Sikhism or not, but I am trying to gain an insight into you as a human being, and all I am hearing is:

- *I* want this.
- he won't listen to *ME*
-what about *MY* feelings.
-only Caspian understands *ME*.
-My mother understands *ME*.

Your father hasn't come on this forum, so why should I judge him? Also how can you judge me, you have absolutely no knowledge about me, whereas other forums members here know me very well.

If you are seeking approval, then show us your mettle, and show us what you are made of. 

Tell us why you deserve this woman? 
Tell us why your father (or anyone else ) should listen to you? 
Tell us what you gives an insight into people like me? 
Tell us what you know about life and relationships? 
Tell us what you know about psychology, love and the super ego?
Tell us what you define as a "good" person?

This is not a childs forum (like sikhsangat etc), but a forum who's mods are academics, thinkers and philosophers first and foremost, and Sikhs second.:welcome:


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 25, 2010)

Dear Everyone ji,

I ask your forgiveness in advance;  I feel the need to say this, though.



> EXEC says:Really Randip Singh ji...the only thing my father can come up with is "I don't want our religion to end" that's about it. Nothing more at all, I haven't had many girlfriends, well to be precise. I haven't been together with anyone else and both me and my girlfriend shared our bodies for the first time...with each other and no one else . I want to merry her, I want to her to meet my mother and my father. I want both of my parents to know that i've chosen the right one.



It seems you have already made merry with the young lady.  Might I suggest that you are trying to say that you want to _marry _her??


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## ExEc (Feb 25, 2010)

> Wow Hold on.
> 
> You have a real nerve.
> 
> ...



I came here to talk ask about how I can make him happy. If there is anything in the religion that points out that if we feel happy with a person then it shouldn't matter the religion. I'm not here to be told that I have lower knowledge just because I don't study the religion my father believes in.
Did I ever write that I have problems with my fathers knowledge? No, also he doesn't even care if I've got knowledge on a subject more than him. I'm not going to out do my father knowledge. Basically because he won't listen to me even if I have a point.
If you think religion is knowledge then so be it. That's why it gets on my nerves so much. Let's stop talking about it, I've got more problems as it is and I don't want to spend my time arguing over internet. And, no I don't need any self esteem boost. That's not what I want at the moment.



> If I do not know how to count then how can I challenge it?
> 
> Here is news for you. Not only do I know how to count, I know how to do it to postgrad and beyond, in other words I have a deep understanding on many faiths, and a lot more than you from your own admission.
> 
> ...



On the subject of religions, yes it does put you in better position. I have studied the major religions as well but not fully because half way through they made no sense and went completly against them self on their own sayings.
Yes, It actually does put you in a better position if you want to talk deeper about a religion.  That's why I actually didn't want to continue talking about it, because I don't know much about Sikhism. That's why I'm not criticizing Sikhism at any point.

Knowledge about religion is only going to put you in better position if we're talking about religion, nothing more. I was asking if I can help my dad accepting the marriage in some way so it doesn't make him feel that I completely ignore his views. Not comparing how much any of us knew about religion. If you want to think you're better at religions than me then be it. I don't really care about that at all, it's none of my business. You don't have to tell me to study Sikhism because that's not going to do any good for me.

By the way, Good that Sikhism suits you best. The only down side is that God doesn't seem to make up his mind on which religion is totally correct. So you're out of luck if you reach "heaven" and it turns out you should have chosen Christianity and not follow any other religion . In other words, you don't know if God agrees with your choice. So it's a good thing you can "count" and "beyond" in this life time.

You seem like a really nice person and I don't want to go into this subject deeper.

I'm just going to leave this one alone now.



> Err no.
> 
> Sikhism has no concept of Satan, and I do not believe in Satan. Satan in Sikhism, is used as a metaphor.
> 
> It is used as a metaphor to describe those that dwell in self.



If you know Christianity (as you've already stated that you've studied major religions) well Sikhism is the work of Satan. That was the answer to your "knowledge" sentence.






> Why should your father see things your way? What have YOU done in YOUR life for him to think...."aahh yes I should listen to my wise son?"



I don't expect him to see things my way. Like I wrote before, I only wanted him to be happy in some way so he doesn't feel like i'm completely ignoring his views.
If I wanted him to see things my way, I would tell him to stop talking about religion whenever he tells me how some things are "unexplainable". I could simply say stop to him and answer him. But I don't do that. I don't want him to think I'm ignoring everything he says, I don't disrespect my father like that.



> I don't do sarcasm, as it is the lowest form of humour. You are letting yourself down, no one else.



It's mostly because the "what drives you" sounded very low to me. I can understand when you say I should look into that carefully but did you ever ask me about my relationship with my girlfriend and why we are in love? It looked like you were judging without asking. So I answered it in a humorous way.





> An interesting story my father told me. A mother is such a creature that if her child asked her, mother, will you cut off your arm for me, she will do it. The father is the one who will be there to tell her, stop!!!
> 
> Sounds as if you are manipulating your mothers love for you.
> 
> ...



I like stories, mostly because they love to point out something that will make kids happy. I hope we're a happy kid when you heard it. I can tell you a story.

Once upon a time in Africa people found a unicorn that they rode around the world.

So remember, unicorns will be always there for you.

What i'm trying to say is, why would you want to tell me a story that points out that father will save you? There are stories about how much a mother loves their children and would do anything for them.

- *I* want this. <-- because I would like to marry a person I've loved and been with for a long time.

- he won't listen to *ME* <-- Yes he doesn't but I still like to listen to him. I don't know if it's fair or not but I haven't talked with him a lot about this subject because he always tells me that i'm stupid.

-what about *MY* feelings. <-- Yes, I care about his feelings why should he care about mine?

-only Caspian understands *ME*. <-- Yes, because he is going through the same thing as I am. His words spoke to me directly, he didn't even write that much and I had so many thoughts resolved. Do I even need to write anymore?

-My mother understands *ME*. <-- If you ONLY knew what she has done you wouldn't even include this one. You would personally want to pay her your respect if you knew what she has went through.

Yes, I can't judge you. That's what i'm not doing, but when you include that religion is knowledge, I just find it hard to accept that. Good that everyone knows you, but I don't see the point why you're telling me that. umm..congratulations? I have no clue what I should write here.

Tell us why you deserve this woman? <-- I'm not going to go into that, it involves a lot of personal things. I'd rather not share that.

Tell us why your father (or anyone else ) should listen to you?  <-- So he can at least give a human being a chance (my girlfriend). For the "everyone else" it's basically up to anyone if they want to listen or not.

Tell us what you gives an insight into people like me? <-- Well...I'm not judging you in any way. I don't know you and I don't have any insights about you. What exactly do you mean by "people like me"?

Tell us what you know about life and relationships? <-- There are a lot of personal details I need to go into. I don't really want to go into that.

Tell us what you know about psychology, love and the super ego? <-- hmm, Well the word "love" is for anyone to experience. In evolutionary terms it's different and in psychology it's different. If you want an Essay about love in psychological term, I can write one. Yes, I do know about super ego. The thing is, I don't totally agree with psychology. Some of the things in psychology are based around weak structures. Short and simple. And please don't make this discussion longer and more out of point than it already is, by asking me more about psychology.

Tell us what you define as a "good" person? <-- Good person? I can't, people take actions differently. Sometimes it might be good for you and bad for others or the other way around. If you're going for "so what makes you think that God would think you're a good person?" well, that's up to God.
Easiest example is Christianity, If you don't follow that religion or haven't been baptized you're going to hell. If God wants to do that then be it. I don't really mind God taking decisions after my death. I'll try to be a good person here on earth and make sure everyone are happy. Which leads me to the question I originally asked before we went off subject. I want my father happy and I want my girlfriend happy. If my father isn't happy, my mother isn't happy and nor am I. My girlfriend doesn't share much thoughts on this subject, she feels bad and thinks I might have to leave her. All she wants is for me to stay with her and so do I. I want to care for both...my father and my girlfriend. No, i'm not comparing them in any way.

Please, can we just stop? I don't really feel like arguing over internet and specially about how much I know about Sikhism, because like i stated before I don't know anything. That's why I asked if there is anything stated in the Guru Granth Sahib that might help me and my father resolve this.  All the teachings i've gotten of Sikhism is through when religious channel read the guru granth sahib. I don't really call that "understanding" unless I understand and comprehend every single word. Yes, I do understand what they are talking about in guru granth sahib but I don't agree with all of the things it states.

That's all the info and reply I can give you. Yes, I know i'm being a arrogant with my replies. I just don't want to continue writing about religion anymore. And no, that's not how I talk with my dad. I would never do that. It just gets on my nerves whenever people try to say that religion is knowledge...no one knows for sure if it is or not. It's up to them to decide, but don't ask me that question please. I'm asking you this as kindly as possible. Please don't continue on that subject.


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## ExEc (Feb 25, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Dear Everyone ji,
> 
> I ask your forgiveness in advance;  I feel the need to say this, though.
> 
> ...



No need to ask for forgiveness, that just makes me like i'm an idiot. There's no need to say sorry about anything. But I do need to thank you for asking me something that is related to the subject.

No, I haven't married her yet, but i want to marry her.

Please don't ask for forgiveness at any point, there's no need for that. You haven't done anything, just a simple question that you asked/error you pointed out.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 25, 2010)

ExEc, 

open your mind if you want some real growth and resolution.


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## Caspian (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm curious now (Putting ExEc's situation aside) can a sikh (man or women) marry a person from a different faith (or no faith) without forced conversion on either side? Cuz I dont think that question has been addressed in this thread. I'm aware that the Guru Granth Sahib is not a rule book, but is the above situation justifiable in Sikhism? Or is it against the general principles of Sikhism? (if the question has been addressed anywhere else in a different thread, feel free to link me to it ).


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 26, 2010)

Caspian Ji,
There is no forced conversion in gurmatt.
Guru Teg Bahadur Ji gave his life to defend that principle.
An aspirant to Khandey Batte dee Pahul has to be of "age of consent - maturity) and decide for himself/herself.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 26, 2010)

ExEc said:


> I came here to talk ask about how I can make him happy. *If there is anything in the religion that points out that if we feel happy with a person then it shouldn't matter the religion*. I'm not here to be told that I have lower knowledge just because I don't study the religion my father believes in.




But you said this:



> "Knowledge about religion is only going to put you in better position if we're talking about religion, nothing more"



Your mind is closed.




ExEc said:


> Did I ever write that I have problems with my fathers knowledge? No, also he doesn't even care if I've got knowledge on a subject more than him. I'm not going to out do my father knowledge. Basically because he won't listen to me even if I have a point.



Why should he listen to you? You keep dodging the question?




ExEc said:


> If you think religion is knowledge then so be it. That's why it gets on my nerves so much. Let's stop talking about it, I've got more problems as it is and I don't want to spend my time arguing over internet. And, no I don't need any self esteem boost. That's not what I want at the moment..



I don't think anything.

You came here looking for something in Sikhism, to basically help you with your dilemma.

You have not found what you were looking for instead people are asking you to look at yourself. From what you are writing you do not like that.




ExEc said:


> On the subject of religions, yes it does put you in better position. I have studied the major religions as well but not fully because half way through they made no sense and went completly against them self on their own sayings.



What books have you read?

What authors?  What made you come to this conclusion?

Do not dodge the question as you keep doing.



ExEc said:


> Yes, It actually does put you in a better position if you want to talk deeper about a religion.  That's why I actually didn't want to continue talking about it, because I don't know much about Sikhism. That's why I'm not criticizing Sikhism at any point.



To coin my nephews phrase "You Fail". You have comletely missed what Tejinder Singh posted above.




ExEc said:


> *Knowledge about religion is only going to put you in better position if we're talking about religion, nothing more.*



Again. "You Fail".:yes:





ExEc said:


> I was asking if I can help my dad accepting the marriage in some way so it doesn't make him feel that I completely ignore his views. Not comparing how much any of us knew about religion. If you want to think you're better at religions than me then be it. I don't really care about that at all, it's none of my business. You don't have to tell me to study Sikhism because that's not going to do any good for me.



How can you you on  the one hand say you do not want to ignore his view when you have made zero attempt to understand it?




ExEc said:


> By the way, Good that Sikhism suits you best. The only down side is that God doesn't seem to make up his mind on which religion is totally correct. So you're out of luck if you reach "heaven" and it turns out you should have chosen Christianity and not follow any other religion . In other words, you don't know if God agrees with your choice. So it's a good thing you can "count" and "beyond" in this life time..



No. Sikhism says all paths are fine.



ExEc said:


> You seem like a really nice person and I don't want to go into this subject deeper.



You do not know me and you won't when you read on.




ExEc said:


> If you know Christianity (as you've already stated that you've studied major religions) well Sikhism is the work of Satan. That was the answer to your "knowledge" sentence.



Thats a matter of opinion. There are many branches of Chtistianity and there are many theological views. This is a very simplistic view and shows your lack of understanding of other faiths too.




ExEc said:


> I don't expect him to see things my way. Like I wrote before, I only wanted him to be happy in some way so he doesn't feel like i'm completely ignoring his views.



You want him to be be happy, or you wish to ease YOUR conscience?



ExEc said:


> If I wanted him to see things my way, I would tell him to stop talking about religion whenever he tells me how some things are "unexplainable". I could simply say stop to him and answer him. But I don't do that. I don't want him to think I'm ignoring everything he says, I don't disrespect my father like that.



No offence but YOUR views make absolutely no sense because you yourself do not know what you want, so why should he see things YOUR way?




ExEc said:


> It's mostly because the "what drives you" sounded very low to me. I can understand when you say I should look into that carefully but did you ever ask me about my relationship with my girlfriend and why we are in love? It looked like you were judging without asking. So I answered it in a humorous way.



Are you in Love? What do you know about Love?




ExEc said:


> I like stories, mostly because they love to point out something that will make kids happy. I hope we're a happy kid when you heard it. I can tell you a story.
> 
> Once upon a time in Africa people found a unicorn that they rode around the world.
> 
> ...



OK STOP!

Do not try to be CUTE or clever with me on this forum.




ExEc said:


> - *I* want this. <-- because I would like to marry a person I've loved and been with for a long time.
> 
> - he won't listen to *ME* <-- Yes he doesn't but I still like to listen to him. I don't know if it's fair or not but I haven't talked with him a lot about this subject because he always tells me that i'm stupid.
> 
> ...



Err those were not questions to be answered.

They were points that *ALL* you do is focus on *YOU.*

You are very self centred.



ExEc said:


> Yes, I can't judge you. That's what i'm not doing, but when you include that religion is knowledge, I just find it hard to accept that. Good that everyone knows you, but I don't see the point why you're telling me that. umm..congratulations? I have no clue what I should write here.



Ok, let me spell this out. Don't try and be clever or sarcastic with me.

You have aired your dirty linen here for all to see, and yet you seem to think you can form  and opinion on people here, you can't.




ExEc said:


> Tell us why you deserve this woman? <-- I'm not going to go into that, it involves a lot of personal things. I'd rather not share that.



Classic question dodge, considering you have told us you lost your visginity to her. The question is about YOU. Not her.



ExEc said:


> Tell us why your father (or anyone else ) should listen to you?  <-- So he can at least give a human being a chance (my girlfriend). For the "everyone else" it's basically up to anyone if they want to listen or not.



There are billions of the humans on this planet. Why should he listen to you?




ExEc said:


> Tell us what you gives an insight into people like me? <-- Well...I'm not judging you in any way. I don't know you and I don't have any insights about you. What exactly do you mean by "people like me"?



All you posts are highly judgemental.



ExEc said:


> Tell us what you know about life and relationships? <-- There are a lot of personal details I need to go into. I don't really want to go into that.



In other words nothing. You know the physical side. Have you ever read Twelfth Night?



ExEc said:


> Tell us what you know about psychology, love and the super ego? <-- hmm, Well the word "love" is for anyone to experience. In evolutionary terms it's different and in psychology it's different. If you want an Essay about love in psychological term, I can write one. Yes, I do know about super ego. The thing is, I don't totally agree with psychology. Some of the things in psychology are based around weak structures. Short and simple. And please don't make this discussion longer and more out of point than it already is, by asking me more about psychology..



Don't DODGE the question. Tell me what you know. You have told me nothing but pure waffle.





ExEc said:


> Tell us what you define as a "good" person? <-- Good person? I can't, people take actions differently. Sometimes it might be good for you and bad for others or the other way around. If you're going for "so what makes you think that God would think you're a good person?" well, that's up to God.
> Easiest example is Christianity, If you don't follow that religion or haven't been baptized you're going to hell. If God wants to do that then be it. I don't really mind God taking decisions after my death. I'll try to be a good person here on earth and make sure everyone are happy. Which leads me to the question I originally asked before we went off subject. I want my father happy and I want my girlfriend happy. If my father isn't happy, my mother isn't happy and nor am I. My girlfriend doesn't share much thoughts on this subject, she feels bad and thinks I might have to leave her. All she wants is for me to stay with her and so do I. I want to care for both...my father and my girlfriend. No, i'm not comparing them in any way.



Thats not what I asked. I didn't aske about religion but what makes YOU think YOU are a good person, because tto me a self centered person (which you are), is pretty evil.




ExEc said:


> Please, can we just stop? I don't really feel like arguing over internet and specially about how much I know about Sikhism, because like i stated before I don't know anything. That's why I asked if there is anything stated in the Guru Granth Sahib that might help me and my father resolve this.  All the teachings i've gotten of Sikhism is through when religious channel read the guru granth sahib. I don't really call that "understanding" unless I understand and comprehend every single word. Yes, I do understand what they are talking about in guru granth sahib but I don't agree with all of the things it states.



WE are going round in circles. Guru Granth Sahib, isn't an a la carte menu you just dip into and choose something you like. You must understand it and live it.

"Higher than Truth is Truthful Living"



ExEc said:


> That's all the info and reply I can give you. Yes, I know i'm being a arrogant with my replies. I just don't want to continue writing about religion anymore. And no, that's not how I talk with my dad. I would never do that. It just gets on my nerves whenever people try to say that religion is knowledge...no one knows for sure if it is or not. It's up to them to decide, but don't ask me that question please. I'm asking you this as kindly as possible. Please don't continue on that subject.



Well you can leave the form, the choice is yours.

If you continue to write such self centred, self indulgent, "what about me me me" posts then you will be questioned.

You suffer from a malady that people have suffered since the time of evolution. "Me-ism". The solution is in the mirror.


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## Lee (Feb 26, 2010)

Exex ji,

What a sticky one.  Narayan jot ji, is correct when she says that it is hard to advise you.
I feel I must first remind you that I'm a white English man and so my cultural identity is not Indian nor Punjabi and my views stem from such, in the interest of fairness and discloser I tell you this.

I would ask you to consider this.  At what age should a person be free of the identity of their parents and responsible for making their own choices?

I don't know your dad, so you'll be the only one able to answer this.  What is his likely response if you disobey him in this?  How long is he likely to keep such a response up?

My wife was 17 when she movedd out of her perantial home and moved in with me, two years later we where married.  Niether her mother nor her father liked that very much at all, and it took alomst two years for her mum to start to talk to her again(her dad moved out of the country so his opinion mattered not to my wife).

Now we celebrate 20 years of marrige come this summer, and her mother can see for herself that all of the fears she initialy had about me, and her daughter moving in with me and ultimatly marriing me where unfounded.

In short, time heals, but only you can ascertian whether this is worth the risk for you.  As you have asked, and as one human to another I hope this helps you in your desicion.  Good luck my freind.


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## ExEc (Feb 26, 2010)

Lee said:


> Exex ji,
> 
> What a sticky one.  Narayan jot ji, is correct when she says that it is hard to advise you.
> I feel I must first remind you that I'm a white English man and so my cultural identity is not Indian nor Punjabi and my views stem from such, in the interest of fairness and discloser I tell you this.
> ...



Thank you Lee, That's a really warm answer. Good thing everything worked out for you and your wife. The thing is, I'm first and foremost looking for a way that both me and my dad would agree upon. That's why I came here. Even thought my father asks me for help in a lot of things. He still says i'm not old enough to make my own decisions...specially big ones. My mother knows that i'm old enough, but my father doesn't think so. He says that I don't have a lot of life experience. In my view, even a child can have a lot more life experience. As long as the child has been in a lot of situations and has the understanding and grasp over them. Everyone looks things in different way.

Yet, his way of thinking isn't like that. I'm sure he has a good reason to think that way, but I haven't seen any so far. Neither has my mother. Even if my mother has same thinking as my dad. She understands because she understands people. He is more of a closed inside person and my mother is more of a know everyone person. My father can't see outside of the box all the time, while my mother looks outside of the box more often. She even surprises me with her answers. That's the information i've gathered so far.

His response is "If you do that, i'll do this". I respect his opinion but that's just forcing things on to me and everyone else(mother and  girlfriend). He is a really peaceful person. That's why I don't want to make a move that will upset him. He is old, I don't want to cause any damage to his mental health. It will also cause damage to his body.

Thank you for your answer Lee. I appreciate it a lot. If time heals everything, I think my mother might be able to help me out. She can hopefully take care of my father. Even thought she has some issues with me marrying my girlfriend, my mother understands. She has been forced into things before that didn't turnout all that good. That's why she understands my choice. 


*Undue negativity directed at another forum member. Deleted by Narayanjot Kaur*



Randip Singh said:


> Your mind is closed.
> 
> 
> Why should he listen to you? You keep dodging the question?
> ...





> Your mind is closed.


Thanks, Now I know that. Now I know all of the problems and how to solve them THANK YOU SO MUCH! oh wait, you don't know me and i refuse to answer your questions. So that means you don't know me. Even those I answer, i answer with sarcasm and don't take you seriously at all. 




> Why should he listen to you? You keep dodging the question?


Can you read? I wrote several times, I don't expect him to listen to me because he hasn't ever done that. If I can find something in Guru Granth Sahib that actually helps me AND him come to a better conclusion, than "I'll leave" then I we can finally understand each other on the subject of marriage. How many times should I write it? Yes, I keep dodging your questions because I can see how you're "helping" at the moment.
To me it just looks like you're trying to find problems in me, which I accept I have but you don't know which ones and maybe not even me.
You're not doing anything to make the situation any better. I won't ever answer your questions.



> I don't think anything.
> 
> You came here looking for something in Sikhism, to basically help you with your dilemma.
> 
> You have not found what you were looking for instead people are asking you to look at yourself. From what you are writing you do not like that.


Umm, you've been talking about knowledge through religion and you're the only one that is actually telling me to look at myself. Yes, I don't like it because I don't totally agree with a lot of the things in Sikhism. I'm not going to conclude my judgment because I don't know enough about it.  Also I use a lot of examples that relate to other religions while you stick with Sikhism as only example. I don't mind but you're just forcing me even more and more into Sikhism. Stop doing that, I'm not going to listen to you.



> What books have you read?
> 
> What authors?  What made you come to this conclusion?
> 
> Do not dodge the question as you keep doing.


Oh yes I will dodge the question. You can't do anything about it, so just let it go. What books? Mostly through school. Most of them translated into English, old testament, new testament, Qur'an, Ramayana and some other Hinduism books and a little about Buddhism. I think you can figure out the authors for yourself. I'm going to let this one alone. I'm not going to go back to this one even if you ask me ever again.



> To coin my nephews phrase "You Fail". You have comletely missed what Tejinder Singh posted above.


Nice one, now let your nephew teach you how to read sentences more carefully.



> Again. "You Fail".


I wish I knew how it feels like to say you fail...hmm oh wait you actually do fail.  I'm trying to talk as a human. As in, no religion. Only thing I'm asking is if me and my father can actually come to a common stand, even thought we have different views. How many times have I written that? 




> How can you you on  the one hand say you do not want to ignore his view when you have made zero attempt to understand it?


He usually tends to raise his voice and starts to shout at me. So I don't get any chances to finish up. So yes, I have made attempts but I don't do that because I don't want him to get angry.



> No. Sikhism says all paths are fine.


I know that, but Christianity says their path is the only true path. Any other are work of the devil. Do you see the conflict there?
I'll just stop talking about this one too.



> Quote:
> <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;">                      Originally Posted by *ExEc*
> 
> 
> ...


Nice judgment. I thought you didn't judge? I still think you're a nice person. You can't change my views unless you do something drastic. I haven't seen anything like that so, no, I'm not changing my views.
Btw, you wrote fail twice. If I use those two words, this whole post would be nothing more than "You fail"s.



> Thats a matter of opinion. There are many branches of Chtistianity and there are many theological views. This is a very simplistic view and shows your lack of understanding of other faiths too.


OH no! How could you? How did you find out I lack understanding of other faiths? ahh! I can't hide anymore. I better run for it! Oh...just a minute, what's this?
"Exodus 20:3 - Thou shalt have no other gods before me." 
"Jesus - No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6, NIV)"
"Exodus 34:14, God says, "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

In other words, Jesus is only in Christianity and the real "God" is only in Bible. There are a few other quotes that I can't find from Bible. They say that every other religion is work of the devil. If you've got logic then it says you're wrong.
Who has the lack of understand of other faiths?
Christianity is too easy to pick on, I can pick others but am I here to argue with you over my knowledge of religions? No.
Stop asking me of this. You've been going out of subject so many times It's so unbelievable! Why can't you just stay on the subject and leave the whole religion thing behind?
I'm not going to answer you on this anymore.



> You want him to be be happy, or you wish to ease YOUR conscience?


Here's logic for you. If I ease his thoughts then I ease mine, my mothers and my girlfriends. Stop asking me this, you've just shown me you don't know me at all. I've written so many times and yet you still don't understand any of my words.
I'm going to stop answering your questions. You just go ahead and believe whatever you want if it makes you happy.



> No offence but YOUR views make absolutely no sense because you yourself do not know what you want, so why should he see things YOUR way?


Nope, I have absolutely no clue what I want. Wait, never mind, I do know what I want. That's why people who understand me give a reasonable answer unlike you. I'm not going to discuss any more with you. It looks like you have no understanding about my situation. Even if you did, you don't show any. So i'm taking a wild guess that you haven't been in this situation. And now, i'm only going to give you  sarcastic answers.



> Are you in Love? What do you know about Love?


Please teacher, I don't know anything about Love. Tell me more what Love is. You're the only person in this whole world that knows what love is. Hopefully you can write about Love with words because a lot of people have tried and not succeeded.



> OK STOP!
> 
> Do not try to be CUTE or clever with me on this forum.


OK STOP EVERYONE! No one should be clever on this forum! Throw your brains out of window! Don't ever try to be cute! This guy has some awesome knowledge which he can use to easily judge you! Run away!



> Err those were not questions to be answered.
> 
> They were points that *ALL* you do is focus on *YOU.*
> 
> You are very self centred.


Oh look! Just because I used the word ME it makes me self centered! Maybe we should remove the word ME from English and it will magically make everyone care for each other. It will definitely remove the word "self centered" too!
If I use a word, doesn't mean you can judge me. Maybe your nephew can teach you about that too. If I pointed out how many comments that you've written judge me, all of this message would be filled with "You f...never mind.



> Ok, let me spell this out. Don't try and be clever or sarcastic with me.
> 
> You have aired your dirty linen here for all to see, and yet you seem to think you can form and opinion on people here, you can't.


STOP BEING CLEVER PEOPLE! How many times should I write it out? This guy doesn't want anyone else being smarter! Don't try any jokes either, because if he doesn't get your jokes that have meaning behind them, it makes him feel he is being left out!

Umm, teacher? I think dirty line would be if I put in swear words in my sentences.

Opinion on people? Teacher look! Some people do actually understand me! Wait, I should say that because I don't have the freedom of choice. Choice to form an opinion. Don't take that away teacher please! I beg you!



> Classic question dodge, considering you have told us you lost your visginity to her. The question is about YOU. Not her.


Oh please teacher! I don't want to get into personal details, because it's none of your business. AND it doesn't seem like you're going to use them in the right way. Oh, you're going to force me to answer that? Well, yes I did lose my virginity but is that all? No, Here's how it is. IIIII'll tell you what I want, what i really really want. I wanna, uh, I wanna. Seriously, I'm not going to answer you.



> There are billions of the humans on this planet. Why should he listen to you?


Sorry what? I need a hearing aid. I think I have hard time LISTENING TO YOU.



> All you posts are highly judgemental.


No, yours are. Please don't tell me to point each and every one of them out for you. Teacher, can you do some homework yourself please?



> In other words nothing. You know the physical side. Have you ever read Twelfth Night?


Oh teacher, I was reading this book called Twilight. It was about vampires and It's awesome! It tells you that you should treat your girlfriend like a broom! Use it and ignore it! Oh, you been reading The game? It's awesome! It tells you about women! No? They seem completely useless to you to form an opinion on the outside world? Why? Oh, no one in the whole world are the same? They think differently? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
Btw, I didn't continue reading those books. I couldn't stand them.



> Don't DODGE the question. Tell me what you know. You have told me nothing but pure waffle.


I like waffles, do you like waffles? I would love to meet up and eat some waffles! How about 12 o clock on Monday?



> Thats not what I asked. I didn't aske about religion but what makes YOU think YOU are a good person, because tto me a self centered person (which you are), is pretty evil.


Yes! Finally someone figured me out! I AM a self centered person! I mean really! I've been asking how to damage my father beliefs! Not how to help us both! This guy judges me perfectly! Teacher said he doesn't judge and also told me that I can't have an opinion on people while HE DOES IT HIMSELF!
Oh teacher, When you will learn :8-



> WE are going round in circles. Guru Granth Sahib, isn't an a la carte menu you just dip into and choose something you like. You must understand it and live it.
> 
> "Higher than Truth is Truthful Living"


Did you just dip in and take out a quote? That just went against yourself? Oh wait, maybe you didn't jump in and take out a line. You can't be THAT...err...what's the word...stup....hmm nah never mind you simply couldn't have done that.
Oh teacher, did you just tell me I shouldn't judge it while I wrote, I'm not finalizing my judgment on Sikhism? I didn't do that teacher! Really! But why are you suggesting that I should understand it?(read) and Live it (live as a sikh). Didn't I already tell you I'm not going to do that teacher? Oh sorry forgive me! I'm not going to be smart!



> Well you can leave the form, the choice is yours.
> 
> If you continue to write such self centred, self indulgent, "what about me me me" posts then you will be questioned.
> 
> You suffer from a malady that people have suffered since the time of evolution. "Me-ism". The solution is in the mirror.


Oh teacher, Why would I leave without replying to your questions that don't help me at all? Wait, maybe that is a good idea. Here is a thing we can all agree upon. You leave this thread, stop asking me questions and stop answering my replies.

Yes, I do suffer from "Me-ism" because oh...I don't know...this thread is about ME and MY father. What you suffer from is something i've found out while reading your posts. The "You-ism".
OH teacher! How can you only form questions with YOU in them? You've written so many of them! While others comments like Caspian and Lee are about them selfs as well as me? Oh teacher, please you're not helping at all.

Why don't you leave this thread? I don't see how you can help me while you haven't done that with any post so far.

Btw, you've lowered yourself to my level when i'm like this with the "you fail". Very nicely done! I'll truly get help from a guy that can actually lower them selfs to others.

If you're willing to just stop writing, i'll stop replying you with sarcastic answers. It's easy to think that way isn't it? Hope you have a good day/night sir.

"knowledge is your friend" I hope you take your own advise and stop "wasting" your "knowledge" here. It's not going to help.

Bye, bye!


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## spnadmin (Feb 27, 2010)

Quoted from ExEc ji

"Oh teacher, Why would I leave without replying to your questions that  don't help me at all? Wait, maybe that is a good idea. Here is a thing  we can all agree upon. You leave this thread, stop asking me questions  and stop answering my replies."

ExEc ji

As we say in the US, Those are the breaks! Sometimes in life we are greeted with warmth and sometimes someone gives us a cold shower. When you share personal information on any Internet forum you have to be prepared for the results. You are not the only person this has ever happened to here at SPN, and you will not be the last either. There is simply no way to stop anyone, Randip ji or anyone else, from asking questions or reacting to your replies. If that were possible, this wouldn't be a forum, and you would be conducting a monologue, talking only to yourself. Keeping personal issues and questions private is the only sure-fire way I know of to avoid the  "unpleasant" response. And that is true in the workplace, at social gatherings, among sangat, around the dinner table in the heart of the family. That's life. You are just going to have to tough it out.


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## ExEc (Feb 27, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Quoted from ExEc ji
> 
> "Oh teacher, Why would I leave without replying to your questions that  don't help me at all? Wait, maybe that is a good idea. Here is a thing  we can all agree upon. You leave this thread, stop asking me questions  and stop answering my replies."
> 
> ...



Narayanjot Kaur-ji

Thank you for your reply.

It's quite late here and i'm really exhausted. Are you're telling me I should share personal information or are you suggesting I shouldn't share personal information? I'm sorry, I just didn't understand some of the things you wrote. And i'm sorry that I can't share my personal information. There are a lot of details and unpleasant things that I feel uncomfortable writing about. I had a hard time explaining things for my girlfriend, it took a long time.
I hope you can understand- It's understandable that people would have hard time helping me without any information. But if someone has experienced something similar, they would share what they did in this type of situation. Like Lee and Caspian.

Thank you again, and i'm sorry if I seem like a complete idiot to you. I just behave that way towards people that start with things that are completely unrelated and mocking someones knowledge without knowing what the other person knows.

I hope I didn't offend anyone except the person I replied to before.


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## spnadmin (Feb 27, 2010)

ExEc 

No, I am saying you should only share personal information if you are ready for the consequences that follow for doing it. Why did you post your story to begin with? What did you think would  happen?

When you wrote about your relationship with your father, that was sharing personal information. Same regarding your girlfriend, or even your mother. There is no way to predict how other people will react, and you will not like everything you are going to hear/read on an Internet forum. That is the nature of Internet forums. That is life!

So what are your choices? (1) Don't share personal information such as your dilemma with your father;  or  (2) Share all of that information,  your feelings, emotions and experiences, but understand that not everyone will feel they must provide a sympathetic reply.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 27, 2010)

ExEc said:


> Thank you Lee, That's a really warm answer. Good thing everything worked out for you and your wife. The thing is, I'm first and foremost looking for a way that both me and my dad would agree upon. That's why I came here. Even thought my father asks me for help in a lot of things. He still says i'm not old enough to make my own decisions...specially big ones. My mother knows that i'm old enough, but my father doesn't think so. He says that I don't have a lot of life experience. In my view, even a child can have a lot more life experience. As long as the child has been in a lot of situations and has the understanding and grasp over them. Everyone looks things in different way.
> 
> Yet, his way of thinking isn't like that. I'm sure he has a good reason to think that way, but I haven't seen any so far. Neither has my mother. Even if my mother has same thinking as my dad. She understands because she understands people. He is more of a closed inside person and my mother is more of a know everyone person. My father can't see outside of the box all the time, while my mother looks outside of the box more often. She even surprises me with her answers. That's the information i've gathered so far.
> 
> ...



Ok It's quite clear from the gibberish posted above, not ONLY are you self centred egotistical and only care about YOU! You are quite immature, and not as clever as you think you are. No wonder your father does not wish to speak to you.

To summarise,  your points have been:



You have had sex with your girlfriend (we don't care)
You are in Love with the idea of being in Love rather than being in love, hence why I quote Twelfth Nigh (but you knew that right? ), and you came. back with Twilight 
You wish to manipulate SGGSji so you demonstrate to your father, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar are virtues.
You know nothing about any religion, philosophy, psychology.
You have half read some books but didn't understand them.
When faced with a serious question, you reply with sarcasm.
When sarcasm is used back at you ("you fail"), you reply with more sarcasm, heaped with insults.
you came here looking for approval and justification. You will find to a man and a woman here Sikhs do not seek approval or justification, we live by "Higher than Truth is truthful Living".
 
If you continue this tone, its simple, you will be blocked and you will be on your merry way.

Good Bye.

PS

BTW Jesus didn't write the Bible, but you know that right?

PPS, I am not powerful, but this forum, is for mature people who wish to Discuss Share Evolve Learn. Not Cry, Moan, Dismiss, Insult and De-evolve.


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## Admin (Feb 27, 2010)

*The thread seems to have explored all the possibilities... is now Closed!
*


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