# 5 Kakars Questions



## Lionchild (Feb 23, 2006)

*5 Kakars Questions*
By Bindy Bains

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, 
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Hello SPN members… my first post in a long time, and after a rather turbulent 2005 I am proud to be “back” in sikhi and learning something new everyday.

Today I was at a sikhi related site (allaboutsikhs.com) and I read that the 5 Kakars being the Kara, kirpan, kachara, kangha and Kesh should be worn and maintained at all times. It says in our SGGS that our 5 k’s must not depart our body. The problem is how do you keep some of these Kakars clean and tidy in certain events and situations.

I have very specific questions in mind, and I’m sure that a few of us need a re-freshener, so I would like to ask the following…

1) How do you keep kirpan, kangha, Kesh (and head covering?) clean and dry during a shower? I have shower every morning, and this is important.
2) When going to bathroom and other sometimes, unclean areas, how do you protect your k’s?
3) when sleeping, how do you keep 5 k’s on during sleeping (I have tendency to move in my sleep )?

Other question I had regarding our articles of dedication is the kirpan – I read that it is used for defending other sikh and other people (I already knew this BTW), however when I looked at my kirpan, it was not sharp! How can I defend anyone when my sword is dull and not even really big enough? Just a thought, anyone else have this question?

Thanks SPN,

-Bindy Bains
(Formerly, Khalsa Starr)


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## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2006)

waheguru  ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh

   i am very happy khalsa starr ji that you are back in sikhism.what you have read on allabout sikhs.com is just fanatism.no where it is written in guru granth sahib to do this.guru gobind singh ji gave us five kakkars for a purpose not for wearing them as rituals


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## vijaydeep Singh (Feb 24, 2006)

Gurfateh

It is not Sikhism but Jattism or Brahmnaism to let all Five Ks be attached to us all the time.

Say for HAIRS OR KESHA others can be removed from time to time.In fact to trevel overseas these guys of allaboutsikhism also could be putting thier Kirpan in luggage and not taking on borads of Aircrafts.

So kds Ji are correct.We must not bother much about code before having Faith factor over Akal.

Das also removes some of Ks which are detachable in some situations.Like while taking bath or while sleeping or say while learning martial Arts class.

Do not bother about it.


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## Lionchild (Feb 24, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> It is not Sikhism but Jattism or Brahmnaism to let all Five Ks be attached to us all the time.
> 
> Say for HAIRS OR KESHA others can be removed from time to time.In fact to trevel overseas these guys of allaboutsikhism also could be putting thier Kirpan in luggage and not taking on borads of Aircrafts.



:{-  Ok, so i shouldn't have to wear them during shower time, howerver it isgood to keepp them on as much as possible.

Can anyone quote a part of the Guru granth sahib ji about this?


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## S|kH (Feb 24, 2006)

There's no direct quote from SGGS, but simple logic will tell you they can be removed at certain situations.


Not to be blunt, but how are you supposed to have sex with your kachara still on?..or are both partners kachara's supposed to be dangling by their feet, kind of absurd if you ask me. Our gurus had children too, so at one point in time, they did perform the same act, and hence had to remove their kachara.


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## Lionchild (Feb 24, 2006)

S|kH said:
			
		

> ...Not to be blunt, but how are you supposed to have sex with your kachara still on?...



Good point, never really thought of that question. So it is ok to take them off sometimes, i guess you should keep them on as much as possible.

THanks.


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## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2006)

Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> :{-  Ok, so i shouldn't have to wear them during shower time, howerver it isgood to keepp them on as much as possible.
> Can anyone quote a part of the Guru granth sahib ji about this?



5 kakars are not even mentioned in guru granth sahib


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## Lionchild (Feb 24, 2006)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> 5 kakars are not even mentioned in guru granth sahib



Really? I have always been told that it was in the holy scriptures - now i'm confused.

I know that Guru Gobind Singh Ji started the requirment of use of the 5 kakars, how did he know to use them?


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## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2006)

Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> Really? I have always been told that it was in the holy scriptures - now i'm confused.
> I know that Guru Gobind Singh Ji started the requirment of use of the 5 kakars, how did he know to use them?



ther is no bani of guru gobind singh ji in guru granth sahib .the bani of guru gobind singh is in dasam granth and in sarlobh granth and i don,t know whether 5ks they are mentioned in them or not.
the main source of 5ks are different rehatnamas
that is why there are several types of different rehat maryadas


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## vijaydeep Singh (Feb 25, 2006)

Gurfateh

At end of Dasham Granth there is code givne by Tenth Master.

Das will put main point of them here.

Five Ks are mentioned and without Kes(hairs) other four are useless.
This is writtan as per old tradition(Guru agrees that in past also it exisited).
Huqqah(Samoking) ,Shaving and Halal(meat as per Islamic rites) are forbiddan.
Using Hina on beard is like blackening the face.
(end)
In Sarbloh Granth we have mention of Treya Mudra ie Kachh Kes Kirpan.

By History of Ten Gurus and archelogical evidance we  can conclude that previous Gurus had Trai Mudra and 5 Kes were made more clearer since the time of Tenth Master.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji are for mankind like Massiah Jesus.

Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth are for Sikhs only like Bible.


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## kds1980 (Feb 25, 2006)

vijaydeep singh ji can you tell me the page no.of dasam granth in which 5ks are mentioned


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## Archived_member2 (Feb 25, 2006)

Satsriakal to all and Sikh Ji!

You wrote "Not to be blunt, but how are you supposed to have sex with your kachara still on?..or are both partners kachara's supposed to be dangling by their feet, kind of absurd if you ask me. Our gurus had children too, so at one point in time, they did perform the same act, and hence had to remove their kachara."

One should not forget the sanctity of Kachhara and other Kakaars in any situation.

In my view, it is better to give up the hypocritical values of Kakaars. For example, I know a person who made holes in his Kachhara to avoid any mistake.
This person keeps on wearing the wet Kachhara after the bath on one leg until he has not put another dried one on the other leg.

He is convinced that he is not separated from the Guru and God for a moment this way.

Persons, who can respect and sanctify Kachhara and other Kakaars, should preferably wear those.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2006)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> 5 kakars are not even mentioned in guru granth sahib


 
OH YES they are..but in "different" terms...they Precede even the GUrus..even the Bhagats mention them..

Give me a few days and i will get you the relevant quotes..

Jarnail Singh Gyani


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## hardeep23 (Feb 26, 2006)

Respected members

The importance of five K is not stressed anywhere in gurbani. I do not see any reference to five K in any skh history expect articles on rehat maryada. I hope i may be wrong and there must be someone who is able to explain using reference from gurbani. For every explanation GURU GOBIND SINGH JI has asked us to take guidance from GURU GRANTH SAHIB.
The main issue is penetration of some self interested people who are misguiding sikhs to get involved in such petty things and keep us away from the roost cause of promoting sikhism. Sikhism is one of the modern religion where every thing is valued on logic and then agreed to. But gurani is the ultimate. We should follow the teaching of Gurbani.
Hardeep Singh Badhesha


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## kulmahal (Feb 26, 2006)

Hello Everyone,
Waheguru jee kaa khalsa 
waheguru jee kee fateh.


This 5 K's issue requires intellectual’s debate whether Guru Gobind Singh Jee has ever said about wearing 5 K's. 

There are all kind of stories that at the SAJNA of Punj Piarias, Guru Jee had naked kirpaan soaked with blood for more heads,....... but even this story does not mention about 5-kakaars.
Story goes on saying that on very next day, tens of thousands of Sangat took Khande-De-Pahul. The question is how these many Kacheras and kirpaan were arranged??



One thing is for sure:

·    Guru Gobind Singh Jee had given Guuraiee to Siri Guru Granth jee.
·    Guru Granth Sahib Jee prohibit wearing external symbols like Janaoo

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karne Jee


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## vijaydeep Singh (Feb 26, 2006)

Gurfateh

For Bro Bindy Bains,

Best thing for you ios to take help of sikhmarg.com and they will give you more good adivce to come out of ritualism.

Dear KDS Ji,

On  the last page of sgpce version of Dasham Granth which is not online as yet.It is on last page of Dasham Granth.

Dear Balber Singh JI,

das knows some of our people who put pne leg in Kacheera while sleeping with wives but that is more ritualism.

Dear Kulmahal Ji,

Each faith has some code,

Islam has circusenstioans and Hindus Janeu.

If Sikhism is not a ism like comunism but Religeon it has to have some code.

When we say that only Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib Ji then you can not prove it by Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it is not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji themselve.

But Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib Ji was beofore Guru Gobind Singh Ji also in the form of Sabad Guru.

In Sarbloh Granth,Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib and Kachchh Kes Kirpan both are mentioned.


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## Lionchild (Feb 27, 2006)

so really, i should not make a big fuss over it and wear them when it feels comfortable?

ok, thanks.


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## Archived_member2 (Feb 28, 2006)

Satsriakal to all!

There are people who always feel blessed and comfortable with true Sikhi and its visibility.

Balbir Singh


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## Lionchild (Feb 28, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Satsriakal to all!
> There are people who always feel blessed and comfortable with true Sikhi and its visibility.
> Balbir Singh



:hmm: 

????????? What you mean bro?


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## Archived_member2 (Feb 28, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear Bindy Bains Ji!

Guru Nanak Ji spoke "naanak tay mukh ujlay kaytee chhutee naal" SGGS Ang 8 - Japu Ji Sahib 

A true Sikh is one who is blessed with True Naam. His Aura becomes radiant. There is no way to hide it.

The first true symbol of a true Sikh becomes visible this way.

The true Sikh does not wear symbols for photographers.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 1, 2006)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

A lot of readers of this Forum ( and also all over the Sikh World) have been misled into beleiving that the 5 Kakaars...are an "invention"..."imposition"..etc by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....and have nothing to do with the previous NINE GURUS. This is shown by their statements..There is NOTHING about the Five Ks in Gurbani..where is it written in Guru Granth Ji..etc etc etc..????

What a HUGE MISCONCEPTION.... The Five Kakaars are the GIFT of GURU NANAK...they are ALL inside the Gurbani of GURU GRANTH JI....

This is a huge subject and i will tackle it bit by bit..but please bear with me... as we go along.

The FIRST thing to note about GURMATT/SIKHI/...is that this is GURU NANAK JIs GIFT to this World. Nothing about Sikhi and Gurmatt can even be discussed without referring to Gurbani and Directions of Guru nanak ji Sahib...He is the FOUNTAIN HEAD of Gurmatt.....and even IF Water out of aFountain does flow Downstream....and change a bit or alter its course...IT STILL BEGINS its journey from the Fountain Head.

The Second thing to note here is that WHATEVER Direction Guur nanak ji Sahib gave us...Its ALL written down in Black and White for us for eternity in the GURU GRANTH JI SAHIB. No need to go looking elsewhere...Dasam granth...or other Granths..etc.

Guru nanak ji began the MANSION/PALACE of Gurmatt/Sikhi....the NAAM NIranjan is the MAIN THEME..and SHABAD SURT is the FOUNDATION of this Mansion. 

TO continue this Central Theme if NAAM further Guru ANGAD JI SAHIB declares..Naanak AMRIT EK HAI..Dooja AMRIT NAHIN... OH Nanak..there is ONLY ONE AMRIT..no other..

Does Guru Amardass Ji differ from this central theme in any way..NO SIREE..Guru Amardass Ji declares..Shabad MAROh fir jeevoh sadhee tan fir maran na hoi...IF one DIES (Submerges) into SHABAD..the He LIVES for Life EVERLASTING..and NEVER DIES AGAIN... Shabad is for ETERNITY..Shabad is AMRIT for Eternal Life everlasting..
fDo we find any change in this line of thought when Guru Amardass Ji takes over...NO. Guru Ramdass Ji declares...Jin Har arth sreer lagaiyah..Gur SHABAD GURU..GUR KE...Guru ramdass Ji loves the Dust of GURU SHABAD

What happens when Guru arjun Ji comes into Guruhood...any changes ?? NO. Guru Arjun compiles the Shabad into a Granth...and GIVES HIS DIVINE LIFE for its SANCTITY...and Greatness be preserved...This Central Theme is preserved in Guru Granth Ji as "philosophical thought"..and in Harmandir Sahib Darbar sahib's Foundation stone beign laid by a MUSLIM Peer Sain Main Mir in PRACTICAL FORM to show the New Universal Thought is  really and truly UNIVERSAL and breaks all Barriers of caste, rich poor, religion, etc etc etc.

Then Guru Hargobind Ji arrives on the SCENE... we see the Twin Swords of MIRI and PIRI in his Gatra and the Double Edged KHANDA in His hands....and we begin to TREMBLE.... some begin to "see" a "departure" from GURU Nanak Ji..others begin to say..OH Guru hargobind Ji has CHANGED the Peaceful religion of the Previous Five GURUS.....But wait a MINUTE..folks... HAR NAAM KHAG ( The NAAM of HAR is SWORD ) is put into GURBANI by GURU ARJUN JI HIMSELF. DHARAM is JUSTICE....so declare Guru nanak Ji, Guur Angad Ji, guru Amardass Ji, Guru ramdass Ji and Guru arjun Ji....so when we look at AKAL TAKHAT..its wrong for us to say Guru Hargobind ji has "changed" the Direction of Sikhi/Gurmatt ..change of thought. change of Theme..?/ NO.
IF we care to look at Guru Naanak Ji ..carefully enough we can see clearly thet He is Holding the SACH KI KATEE sword in His Hnads..Kamar Katara bunkarra is clearly visible. Defence of DHARAM/JUSTICE sometimes NEEDS the SWORD...hence Guru Gobind Singh later declared this fact..but He takes his lead from GURU NANAK ji

Bhai Gurdass Ji, Bhai buddah Ji..were the Eye wittnesses to the Construction of the Akal takaht..they were the First Voluntary Labour to join hands with Guru hargobind Ji...Bhai gurdass Ji writes; Chalee peerrehee SODHIANROOP DIKHAVAN vareh varee... the Lineage of SODHIS have begun..they change Roop in turn ( but Philosophy remains the same )

Guru Arjun Ji declares..
Hargobind RAKHIYOH Parmesar Aapnee kirpa Dhaar
Mitee biadh sarb sukh hoeyehhar gunn sada bichaar
Angeekaar keeo mere karteeh gur pooreh kee vadaiyee
ABCHAL NEEV DHAREE GUR NANAK Nit nit charreh swaeeh..Gujri Mh 5 Page 500.

This is the Eternal Foundations of Shabd Surt...that upholds the Sikh mansion of Gurmatt Philosophy.

When GURU TEG BAHADUR ( the name was originally TEG MALL...and was changed to TEG BAHADUR when this Sahibzadah of Guru hargobind Ji showed such Incredible Swordsmanship in the Battles of Guru Ji...and we can see clearly that GURU TEG BAHADUR JI is also carrying a SWORD and wielding it..)
So did Guru HAR RAI JI..who had a Company of over 2000 Expert Swordsmen and Horse Riders at His Command 24/7...Gurmatt is NOT Changing and neither is the GURU nanak Philosophy...

Guru Teg Bahadur Ji BANNED the use of Tobacco.....as it was fast gaining popularity among the indian populace.

In my Next installment i will go on to Guru Gobind Singh ji...

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## kds1980 (Mar 1, 2006)

gyani ji there is not even single sakhi in my suraj praksh before guru gobind singh ji in which
previous gurus made 5 kakars mandatory.there is not even a single shabad in guru granth sahib which says that 5 kakars are mandatory for sikhs.
if 5 kakars are so important then why our gurus didn't wrote a single shabad in which 5 kakars are mentioned.

   how can we say that janeu is useless but kara is useful.guru nanak
dev ji refused to wear janeu because guru ji said that janue around body
is useless and janau should be around soul

sloku mÚ 1 ] (471-2)
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

dieAw kpwh sMqoKu sUqu jqu gMFI squ vtu ] (471-2, Awsw, mÚ 1)
da-i-aa kapaah santokh soot jat gandhee sat vat.
Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.

eyhu jnyaU jIA kw heI q pwfy Gqu ] (471-2, Awsw, mÚ 1)
ayhu janay-oo jee-a kaa ha-ee ta paaday ghat.
This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me.

nw eyhu qutY nw mlu lgY nw eyhu jlY n jwie ] (471-3, Awsw, mÚ 1)
naa ayhu tutai naa mal lagai naa ayhu jalai na jaa-ay.
It does not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost.

DMnu su mwxs nwnkw jo gil cly pwie ] (471-3, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Dhan so maanas naankaa jo gal chalay paa-ay.
Blessed are those mortal beings, O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks.

caukiV muil AxwieAw bih caukY pwieAw ] (471-4, Awsw, mÚ 1)
cha-ukarh mul anaa-i-aa bahi cha-ukai paa-i-aa.
You buy the thread for a few shells, and seated in your enclosure, you put it on.


gyani ji i am unable to understand because both these things are contradictory.how can we say janau is useless but kara is useful


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 1, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das wants to add that Miri Peeri concept is not there in Guru Granth Sahib ji ie as Two swrod of Sixth Master.


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## S|kH (Mar 2, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> When we say that only Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib Ji then you can not prove it by Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it is not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji themselve.
> 
> ...



I must say single-handedly this is hands-down the best response I have ever seen.

People love to make the claim that Guru Gobind never wrote about the 5 K's in SGGS, or we don't need the 5 K's because its not mentioned in the SGGS.

But, yet thye always remain with the statement that "Guru Granth Sahib is the 11th Guru" and Guru Gobind told us to follow the book for all explanations.

How do they believe that statement? One must result to other maryadas and written statements.

NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here."

Props to vijaydeep, I am definetly using this argument later on.


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 2, 2006)

Satsriakal to all and SIKH JI!

You wrote <NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here.">

Who is preaching Sikhs since ages that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru, the Gurus have never said it though?

Why Sikhs need to search the true Guru out of the Guru's Baanee, i.e., Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Ji?


Balbir Singh


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## S|kH (Mar 2, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Satsriakal to all and SIKH JI!
> You wrote <NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here.">
> Who is preaching Sikhs since ages that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru, the Gurus have never said it though?
> Why Sikhs need to search the true Guru out of the Guru's Baanee, i.e., Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Ji?
> Balbir Singh




English is such a tough language..:: 

Do not take my phrase literally, I was using it as an example , because it the 5 kakkars are never spoken about in SGGS....I was correlating that to how the current leadership of Sikhs isn't stated in SGGS either.


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## kds1980 (Mar 2, 2006)

the very basic concept of sikhism is that bani is the guru
and it is clearly written in guru granth sahib

wxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ] (982-10, nt, mÚ 4)
banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray.
The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5] (982-11, nt, mÚ 4)
gur banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5||
If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 2, 2006)

Satsriakal to all and kds1980 Ji!

Please explore what 'Baanee' is?

I will be grateful.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 2, 2006)

Dear All...

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

There are two "concepts" in play here.  First concept "Spiritual concept" is written clearly in SGGS time and again... the second concept is the physical concept and CODIFIED by guru Gobind Singh ji in the form of the Panj kakaars.

The Use of the SWORD for JUSTICE is fundamental....a "weak" person CANNOT even defgedn himself let alone the one on whom injustice is being done..Listen to Bhagat kabir Ji.. SOORA so pechaniyaeha  jo larre dene ke het PURJA PURJA KATT mareh...kabhon na chhaddeh khet.... and Guru gobind Singh ji.. .Shubh karmon te kaboohn na daroon. nischey kar aapnee JEET karoon..When all else fails.it is right to Draw the sword...

Listen to Guru naanak Ji...Rajeh sheehn mukaddam KUTTEH....Prem khelan ka chao..SIR dhar tali gale meree aoo...can a "coward" say this..can a coward cut his head and put it on his palm ??

Thus it is clear that the "Spiritual concepts" behind the 5 Kakaars are there enshrined in the Gurbani of the Bhagats, the Gurus in Guru Garanth ji...only in the way of Gurbani..we "NEED" different set of EYES to see GURBANI..and the 5 kakaars..BUt they are the SAME thing.

2. A lot of people always question the JANEAU and KIRPAN.  They fail to see the fundamental DIFFERENCES between the two.  First of all WHAT is the Janeau for ??  do you know that there are DIFFERENT Janeaus for the Different CASTES ?? Do we follow the same rules for Kirapan..is there a different Kirpan for different people ?? Is the Kirpan there to signify Caste.  The JANEAU was COMPULSORY for ALL..no two ways about it... the Kirpan is VOLUNTARY (to Amrtidharees ONLY) Guru Nanak ji REFUSED to wear the JANEAU. Did Guru Hargobind Ji, Guru Har rai Ji, Guru Teg bahdur Ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji REFUSE to CARRY and USE the KIRPAN ??  Did any Guru ji write Gurbani questiong why kirpan ? and describe a "kirpan" of another type as there is Gurbani about the "real janeau" ( asa dee vaar)

Jarnail Singh Gyani


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 3, 2006)

Satsriakal to all!

Guru's Baanee says igAwnu jnyaU iDAwnu kuspwqI ]
"gi-aan janay-oo Dhi-aan kuspaatee." SGGS Ang 355-2
Gian is Janay-oo. Dhi-aan is kuspaatee.

Can somebody please explain it to me? Why people discard Janay-oo but they wish to possess Gian, when Gian is Janay-oo?

Guru Nanak Ji asked Pandits to provide the true Janay-oo if they can? But he has nowhere rejected or discarded Janay-oo, in my view.

I will be thankful if someone provides me a reference where Guru Nanak Ji has discarded Janay-oo.

You may ask me to do the search myself. But I am unable to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with awareness of rejecting Janay-oo in the background.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 3, 2006)

IF someone offers you "rice" and you reply..
Give me Roti.... that goes without saying that you DONT WANT rice

Guru nanak ji Sahib in Asa Di Vaar asks the Pandit to "give me the TRUE Janeau....and then goes on to DESCRIBE what such a Janeau should be.... Daya kapah....

Obviously the PANDIT DOESNT have such a TRUTH Janeau.... so can anyone just assume that since GURU NANAK JI didnt say it straight out I REJECT YOUR FALSE JANEAU....and DEMANDED the TRUTH JANEAU..that Guru Ji would then go ahead and wear the False one made of Thread which He has already REJECTED because it.....GETS DIRTY, GETS BROKEN..and has to be worn again..etc etc

 But GURU NANAK DOES HAVE such  a True Janeau and it is...TRUTHFUL LIVING....and He gave this to US Sikhs


Looking for everything in a "YES - NO format is a bit too much naiveity.  Refer to Bhai Lalo sakhi. Guru Ji ATE bhai lalao's Roti...and this obviously means thet He DID NOT eat Malik Bhago's roti..but there is no direct NO quote anywhere saying I DONT WANT TO EAT your roti malik ji.

Jarnail Singh Gyani


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 4, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Satsriakal to all and SIKH JI!
> 
> You wrote <NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here.">
> 
> ...


 

Gurfateh

Well Dasham Granth is compilation of more then one book.
In past there was contrversay between Singhs weather to let some books by Tenth Master be compiled into one or let them remain separate.
Bhai Sukha Singh made them as one.

At that time also there was no doubt that Guru wrote these verses.

But there was another Book(Sarbloh Granth) still kept separate as it was writtan in time between Gurus leaving Anandpur Sahib and till Hajur Sahib's visit and sachkhand going.

There Guru Granth Sahib Ji are mentioned as Guru.Other forms are Guru Panth and Ten Gurus and all need to be one with Gurubar Akal.

This book was never lost.origeonal version is also in Hajur Sahib.


So Tenth Master did agree that Guru Granth Sahib are Guru and hence your answers.


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 4, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Veer Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!

The Guru sings "sagal samagree tumrai sutir Dhaaree." SGGS Ang 268
All your Totality wears thread.

Don't we reject God unconsciously by rejecting thread? Were the Gurus ever wanted us to spend precious human life discarding threads?

You also wrote "But GURU NANAK DOES HAVE such a True Janeau and it is...TRUTHFUL LIVING....and He gave this to US Sikhs"

Are you sure that God gave it to US Sikhs alone? And what is about Malaysian Sikhs?

In my view, the Gurus suggested us how to get this true Janay-oo. I don't think it is available in a shop along the streets of the city Amritsar.

It is surprising to observe the present values. 

Sikhs are trained to reject many things which the Gurus never asked for.

At the same time Sikhs are disciplined to adopt many rituals which the Gurus never suggested.

**************

Veer Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

I have heard Some historians are working hard to discover old books to prove when and where their ignorance started.

**************

Those, who are blessed with the true Naam Simran, alone are awarded with God's Truth.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 4, 2006)

Waheguru ji ka kahlasa waheguru ji ki fateh.

Veer Ji balbir Singh Ji,

Imho you are taking the "sutr" to mean a "physical Thread".. i think Here the Panktee means MARYADA...HUKM..meaning thet EVERYTHING is Following Waheguru's HUKM or Maryada and NONE is above that or out of LINE ( Mala beads strung on a thread ALWAYS remain IN LINE..unless they break free of the thread.... the Central "thread" holding this entire brahmand together is HUJM..as Guur Ji has already declared in the beginning..Hukme andar sabh ko..bahar hukm na koi....so THISis MARYADA - HUKM about which no one has any alternative except to Follow  Hukme andar SABH KO..BAHAR HUKM NA KOI..No one is OUTSIDE this Hukm.

Jarnail singh gyani


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 5, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Gurdev often sings about thread (sootar).

All are beads and strung in the necklace (Maalaa) of the same thread.

Why do some people try to throw few beads out of this Maalaa? Are they not trying to destroy the Maalaa unconsciously? 

It is wonder how we get diverted from the thread and spend the precious life in sorting out beads.

Strange is to feel concerned with the thread worn by others but forgetting the thread we are strung on.

Do we get a moment to spend in awareness also?

Balbir Singh


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## agape (Mar 13, 2006)

Hukme andar sabh ko..bahar hukm na koi.

sat shri akaal
humbly apologies. could someone please clarify the above stanza.

i was under the impression that this stanza was about following the divine light and hukm we all have inside, instead of looking outside for external symbols or guidance

hukm is inside us all. no hukum outside of us. 
it is a call to develop own relationship with god rather than being a sheep to autority. as we clear our minds of trival thoughts and vibrations the truth reveals itself to us. the truth is all there - just different ways of getting there.


what gyani says here that no one is outside hukm is clearly explianed in the first line of the mool manter 'ek onkar satnaam'

please clarify
begging forgivesness for any misinteruptation


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 13, 2006)

Gurfateh

In fact these verse did attract das for Gurmat.

Akal Tells First Master.

In Control of God everthing exist and nothing outside the control,who so ever understands the control gets out of ego(as our deeds are not ours but of God and deeds of all also).


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## Lionchild (Mar 13, 2006)

:hmm: 

A little confused...
So should I take them off sometimes, or try to weat them at "all times"

I was wondering, if the mini kirpans ppl weat on around their necks is good enough.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 14, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das discuuused this issue in Gurudwara Sahib on last Sunday.Not to be placed with us like ritual and sometime to respect law and securty of others we can temporaryly remove Kirpan.

Kes or uncut hairs are the main thing and other four without Kes are useless/unpardanable(Tenth Master).


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## Lionchild (Apr 21, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> Das discuuused this issue in Gurudwara Sahib on last Sunday.Not to be placed with us like ritual and sometime to respect law and securty of others we can temporaryly remove Kirpan.
> 
> Kes or uncut hairs are the main thing and other four without Kes are useless/unpardanable(Tenth Master).



Well thanks for reply's.. i'm sure this will help everyone on the path of enlightment.


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## simpy (Apr 21, 2006)

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji de Bachan-

kbIr pRIiq iek isau kIey Awn duibDw jwie ]
*BwvY lWby kys kru BwvY Grir mufwie ]25]*

Dhan Dhan Bhagat Kabeer Ji says-when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
Does not matter, you may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. 

mÚ 3 ]
lokw vy hau sUhvI sUhw vysu krI ]
*vysI shu n pweIAY kir kir vys rhI ]*
nwnk iqnI shu pwieAw ijnI gur kI isK suxI ]
jo iqsu BwvY so QIAY ien ibiD kMq imlI ]2]

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji says- outer appearance does not help in obtaining the Lord. It is obtained by only those who listen to the Guru's teaching.


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## International Akaali (Apr 21, 2006)

It is written in the 52 hukams of guru gobind singh ji to keep 5 kakkar kes, khanga, kirpan kachera, kara


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## drkhalsa (Apr 21, 2006)

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji de Bachan-

kbIr pRIiq iek isau kIey Awn duibDw jwie ]
*BwvY lWby kys kru BwvY Grir mufwie ]25]*

Dhan Dhan Bhagat Kabeer Ji says-when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
Does not matter, you may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. 

This is beautiful quote 
It has been written by Kabir ji keeping in Mind the tradition prevelant at the time where people were made to shave heads( signifying detachment from from wordly love/things) at the time of induction into a particular spirtual tradition as it marks the reference point in the life of person when he commited to follow that particular path .In the same line people were made to grow hair in other tradition to mark their commitment to the particular path 

What I mean to say is that the time Kabir ji worte this bani , going bald or keeping long hair marked and signified the following of the particular tradition by the various people of that time.

Now we will try to understand that what Bhagat Kabir want to convey in this Vaak 

The duality/love for worldly things depart only when you start loving the one ( Akal)
whether you keep long hair or make your head bald it does not matter.


So Kabir ji says that which ever spirtual path you are following the way to get rid of worldly love is loving the one ,nothing else is going to help 

For a sikh who is keeping long hair in line with teaching of his Guru ,the way to get rid of duality is loving the one akal not jsut keeping long hair


This is what i undersood according to understanding given to me by Akal


Jatinder Singh


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## simpy (Apr 25, 2006)

Respected Sadhsangat Ji,

So many people are thinking that by just wearing the five Kakkaars, they have recieved a lisence to Salvation. With due respect, this is Guru Ji's Seal, YES. But you have to do a LOT MORE. Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji De Bachan

Ray man eh bidh jog kamaa-o
_Oh my mind, practice Yoga in this way:_

Singee saach akapat kanthalaa
_Let Truth be your horn, sincerity your necklace,_ 


Dhi-aan Bibhoot charaa-o 
_and meditation the ashes you apply on your body._


Taatee geho aatam bas kar kee 
_Catch your burning soul (self) and stop the flames._


Bhicchhaa naam adhaarang
_Let the soul (self) be the alms bowl in which you collect the sweet Naam and this will be the only support you will ever need._


Baajay param taar tat har ko 
_The Universe plays its divine music. The sound of reality is shrill, but this is where God is._


Upajai raag rasaarang 
_When you listen to the reality from this place of awareness the sweet essence of Raag arises._


Ughatai taan tarang rang 
_Waves of melodies, emotions, and passions arise and flow through you._


Gi-aan geet bandhaanang 
_Bind yourself with the song of God. _


Chak chak rehay dayv daanav mun 
_The Universe spins like a potter’s wheel and from it fly demons and angels._


Chhak chhak bayom bivaanang 
_The sage listens to this and instead of getting caught in either one, the sage drinks the nectar of the heavens and is carried to the heavens in a divine chariot._


Aatam upadays bhays sanjam ko 
_Instruct and clothe yourself with self control. Meditate unto infinity_


Jaap so ajapaa jaapai 
_until you are meditating without meditating._

Sadaa rehai kanchan see kaayaa 
_In this way, your body shall remain forever golden,_


Kaal na kabahoo bayaapai 
_and death shall never approach you._


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