# Was He The Greatest  ?



## rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in (Oct 31, 2008)

*The great Last sikh guru Guru Gobind Singh perhaps could easily be considered the greatest human to have ever taken birth on this planet Earth.*
He, is an unparalleled hero not in the history of India but in the world history too. A brave man of firm convictions he stood for the secularism, democratic principles and pleaded for man's rights. He lived and worked for the upliftment of poor, needy, and down-trodden people of our country irrespective of their caste, religion or sect. Apart from being a great virtuous and pious man, Guru Govind Singh Ji Maharaj was a well-read person too. He was a linguist and well-versed in Indian classical languages and Persian, Puranic literature, Hindi poetics, Arabic, Punjabi and other martial arts. His Jaap Sahib (written by him at 19 ) a morning prayer is considered a masterpiece by many scholars and intellectuals of different religion .Besides, shooting and hunting, the writing of verses was also a passion of young Gobind. He realized that it is the cultural and heroic outlook which can make a nation strong. He learned Sri Guru Granth Sahib by heart. Guru Govind Singh was a great warrior also. He was an outstanding general and an excellant administrator.He fought many battles against tyranny, suppression, oppression and in-tolerance. He did not fight for any territory or worldly power, nor did he fight against any religion or sect or for his personal gains. His war was mainly against oppression,inequality and tyranny. He was a fine blend of a saint, soldier and a scholar whose mission was to eradicate evil and spread good. There were innumerable people who were greatly influenced by his personality, his philosphy of religion and his sense of sacrifice.

*The Great Yogi allah yaar* khan wrote as follows abt Guru gobind singh ji while comparing his greatness to some other famous personalities
*Dandak main phire ram to sita thi bagal main,
*(when ram was given exile his wife sita was with her)
*woh fakhre jahan hind ki mata thi bagal main,
*(Hindustan or hindus or ism which claims to be the oldest civilazation in this world, her mother sita was with him, well the poet actually is saying that what was this exile if compared to the king of kings Guru gobind singh ji’s life, the tenth master cared for humanity not his family, friends or peers, his whole life was an exile starting from the age of 9 when he himself sacrificed his father by saying that who else can save hindu or ism, )
*Lachman(Laxman) sa biradar bhaye takhsine jigar tha,
*(brother like laxman was with him, here the poet is referring to the tenth master Guru gobind singh ji,in machiwara where he was all by himself after sacrificing his sons,while the poet points that ram(lord rama or god) wept when laxman lost consciousness and regained consciousness after hanuman brought sanjiwani butti, while my satguru the tenth master in machiwara when he lost everything : his anandpur,his family including his 4 sons(sahebzadaas), his mother mata gujri ji, his army, and barefooted rendered friendless and helpless he never lost courage. In the jungles of Machhiwara, barefoot and hungry, he remained firm and sang a merry song: he is not even complaining but saying:
_"O give Him this news of me, 
Without You O Lord, the luxury of soft beds is full of pain and discomfort, 
Pleasures of palaces are like living among snakes, 
The thorns that ***** my feet are now my flask for drink. 
The dagger that is pursuing me is my cup, O Lord. 
Without Thy grace O Lord, comforts are nothing but a butcher's knife. 
The bed on the ground is heaven to me, Lord, if Thou art with me, 
Burnt be the rich dwellings. they are hell to me if I forget Thee."
_*Sach kehta hoon gobind ka rutba hi digar ha,
*(I swear that the status of Guru gobind singh ji is unique, here the poet is referring to the greatness of Guru gobind singh ji, he says that no prophet has appeared in this world who made his disiciples sit on throne , here the poet refers from Guru gobind singh ji’s words
_"Khalsa mero roop hai khaas. 
The Khalsa is my complete image 
Khalse maih hau karo nivaas. 
I dwell in the khalsa 
Khalsa mero mukh hai ang-aa. 
Khalsa is my chief organ 
Khalse ke hau sadh sadh sang-aa. 
I am always with the khalsa 
Khalsa mero mitr sakhaa-ee 
Khalsa is my closest friend 
Khalsa maat pitaa sukhdaa-ee 
Khalsa is my mother, father & source of all comforts. 
Khalsa meri jaat ar pat. 
Khalsa is my caste & creed. 
Khalsa sau maa kau utapat. 
My creation is through the khalsa 
Khalsa mero bhavan bhand-aa-raa. 
I dwell in the khalsa who is a storehouse of all my requirements. 
Khalse kar mero satk-aa-raa. 
I am honoured because of the khalsa. 
Khalsa mero pind par-aan. 
Khalsa is my body & breath.
Khalsa meri jaan ki jaan. 
Khalsa is my life & soul 
Khalsa mera satgur poor-aa 
Khalsa is my full-fledged __Guru__. 
Khalsa mera sajan soor-aa. 
Khalsa is my brave friend. 
Khalsa mero budh ar giaan. 
Khalsa is my wisdom & knowledge. 
Khalse ka hau dhar-au dhiaan. 
I always contemplate the khalsa prayerfully 
Upmaa khalsae jaath na kahi 
Eulogy of the khalsa is beyond me. 
Jihv-aa ek paar nah lahi. 
I cannot fathom full praise of the khalsa with one tongue. 
Ya mai ranch na mithe-aa bhaakh-ee. 
I certify that I have not mis-stated anything in the foregoing. 
Paarbrahm gur Nanak saak-ee. 
God & __Guru Nanak__ are my witnesses to endorse the foregoing truth
_*Katwa diye sheesh shaam ne geeta ko suna kar,
*(hindu god krishan made brothers fight with brothers, i.e kaurava and pandavas by giving updesh(discourse) of geeta quote from geeta which poet quotes _"yada yada hi dharmasya galani bharvati bharata, abhyuthanam adharamsaya tada tanam srija mahayam","whenever there is a decay of righteousness,O Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness, then I manifest myself in every age"
_while Guru gobind singh ji said _"main hoon param purakh ko dasa dekhan aayo jagat tamasha" , "mau ko parmeswar jo uchare te sab narak kund main jaaye"
"Those who call me God, will fall into the deep pit of hell. 
Regard me as one of his slaves and have no doubt whatever about it. 
I am a servant of the Supreme Being; 
and have come to behold the wonderful drama of life."
_He led by example, sacrificed his father(hind ki chadar Guru tegh bahadur saheb ji), his four sons, his anandpur, everything he had)
*Rooh phuk di gobind ne aulaad katakar
*(Guru gobind singh ji immolated his soul by sacrificing his sons but still lived for khalsa and complained to none)

*Bulleh Shah* is classed with Kabir and is said to belong to the Saint tradition of the SufisHe hailed Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru, as a protector of Hinduism:
​

_*"Na kahun abh kee,
 na kahun tab kee, 
agar na hote Guru Gobind Singh, 
to sunnat hoti sab kee."*_ _*- Baba Bulle Shah* _​

 I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow;
I talk about today.
Had Gobind Singh not been there,
They would all be under Islamic sway. 
_- Baba Bulle Shah_​

 
*Bhai Nand Lal*  Ji, the person who stayed with Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji so closely and he understood his personality too deeply than any body else. Bhai Nand Lal (Singh) Ji wrote a book in the praise of Dasam Guru named "Ganjnama" or "The Book of Treasures". 
He describes Guru Gobind Singh Ji as:- 


_SAD HAZAARAAN SULS-O SUDS KHIDMAT GUZEEN_ 
_V SAD HAZAARAAN RUBEH-O TISYA KHAAK NASHIN_ 
Lacs of gods and shastras have chosen to serve him; lacs of Vedas and heavens are under his command. 

_SAD HAZAARAAN ASHR-O SULS-O SULSOON SITA-INDEH-E BARGAAHASH_ 
_SAD HAZAARAAN EESHAR-O BRAHMAA V ARSH-O KURSI KHAHIND-EH-E PANAAHASH_ 
*Lacs of gods and angels praise the splendor of his palace; lacs of gods like Shiv and Brahama are wishing to be near his throne for protection.* ​​*Rabindra Nath Tagore a great admirer of Sikhism was so much influenced by Guru Gobind Singh that he kept a long beard and was often visiting Darbaar Sahib*.
*Daulat Rai an Hindu Arya Samajist in his book "Sahib e Kamaal Guru Gobind Singh"(a must read) has clearly stated that considering  guru gobind singh's life and his sacrifices no other prophet can be compared to him although Guru never considered himself to be a prophet but a mere servant of the almighty.*


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 31, 2008)

Gurfateh

What did humble Guru Said for us ?

ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੇ ਸਜੇ ਹਮ ਹੈਂ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਸੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਰੇ ॥੨॥
इन ही की क्रिपा के सजे हम हैं नही मोसो गरीब करोर परे ॥२॥

by their kindness I have been greatly adorned, otherwise there kindness I have been greatly adorned, otherwise there are crores of humble person like me.2.


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## deepsingh87 (Aug 22, 2009)

ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੇ ਸਜੇ ਹਮ ਹੈਂ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਸੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਰੇ ॥੨॥


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## harbansj24 (Aug 23, 2009)

Unfortunately in India he is not unanimously considered as a National Hero. Many blame him for "Needlessly institutionalising Sikh Religion". I remember having read somewhere that Mahatma Gandhi referred to him as "misguided Patriot"!
The Sangh parivar firmly believes that Guru Gubind Singh Ji led campaigns specifically against Muslims! And that makes him a National Hero!
And the latest, is to compare him with his contemporary Shivaji and then condescendingly say that Guru Gobind Singh ji is better since he was also a spiritual person! Many people have not even heard about him.

I do not remember to have come across any reference to him by Nehru in his extensive writings.

Only Rahul Gandhi has openly expressed his admiration for Guruji. He is the only person who does not seem to have any resevations on this and does not see through tinted glasses.

Another notable exception is Shiela Dixit. But it may be because she is a daughter of a Sikh.

People seem to forget that without Guru Gobind Singh, there would have been no Manmohan Singh, no INA, no Gen Harbaksh Singh, no Gen JS Arora, no Flg Officer Sekhon etc etc. and 1965 and 1971 wars would not have been won.


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## spnadmin (Aug 23, 2009)

I respectfully and humbly submit that Sri Guru Gobind Singh was not the greatest born on the planet, because he was one of 10. BUT he was among the few who were truly great.  And for me the list is not endless. I do have difficulty coming up with numbers 15 through x.


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## AusDesi (Sep 1, 2009)

Saying someone was 'greatest human ever' is a bit of an offense to human kind. Greatest ever in his era maybe but to say greatest ever means you're basically assuming no one greater will ever be born. 

Having said that he was a great person.


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## spnadmin (Sep 1, 2009)

Aus Desi ji

I don't think so. If someone says Guru Gobind Singh *was *the greatest, the verb was is in the past tense. It doesn't not foreclose on the future. And if we disagree with the opinion of another and become insulted, well then, one chooses to be insulted. It would be like saying that X is the "greatest" ____ and then everyone who prefers Z becomes insulted. It is kind of silly.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 2, 2009)

Guru Gobind Singh Ji accomplished os much in his short life of about 42 years...sacrificing his Father at age 9 and taking on the huge responsibility of  the Gurgadee of Nanak on His young shoulders..BUT then as Narayanjot kaur ji has rightly observed...He had the JYOT of the Previous NINE Nanaks who prepared the ground for His Greatest achievements...239 Years of Hard work from 1469-1708 in Ten Jaamas...
Guur nanak ji made the Master Plan...laid the Foun dation of Gurmatt...placed the Guiding Principles of Gurmatt...Guru Angad ji and then the Succeeding Guru Sahibs made their own contributions..the Biggest in the First five Gurus would eb the Building of Harmandar Sahib and the Compilation of the  aad Granth....then Miri Piri and settinf up of the Akal Takhat by Guru hargobind Ji..further developments along the smae lines and strengthenign the Miri-Piri concept stronger through Guru Har Rai Ji, Guru Harkishan Ji...and Finally the parchaar tours of Guru Teg babhdur ji..whereby He touched BASE with ALL the places earlier Visited by GURU NANAK JI sahib 180 years before to RENEW THOSE TIES ( This si the REASON we had Panj Piayars who came from as far away as ORRISSA !! a place originally visited by Guru nanak ji..) and awakened the Populace further ..so that Guru Gobind Singh ji could COMPLETE the MISSION OF GURU NANAK JI...and how magnificently He did that..is well known....Guru Gobind Singh Ji ..is Part of a TEAM !! One of the BEST and GREATEST TEAMS ever to be on this Earth !!:happy::happy::welcome::welcome:


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## AusDesi (Sep 2, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Aus Desi ji
> 
> I don't think so. If someone says Guru Gobind Singh *was *the greatest, the verb was is in the past tense. It doesn't not foreclose on the future. And if we disagree with the opinion of another and become insulted, well then, one chooses to be insulted. It would be like saying that X is the "greatest" ____ and then everyone who prefers Z becomes insulted. It is kind of silly.


Well im not really insulted because in my view W and X are both not the greatest ever. Most likely there will be a Y who will be better. Z will be better than Y and so on. 

No different to cricket players or Soccer players. 

However, this is not only for Guru Gobind Singh. People of all religions seem to think that their religious figure was/is the greatest.


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## AusDesi (Sep 2, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Gobind Singh Ji accomplished os much in his short life of about 42 years...sacrificing his Father at age 9 and taking on the huge responsibility of  the Gurgadee of Nanak on His young shoulders..BUT then as Narayanjot kaur ji has rightly observed...He had the JYOT of the Previous NINE Nanaks who prepared the ground for His Greatest achievements...239 Years of Hard work from 1469-1708 in Ten Jaamas...
> Guur nanak ji made the Master Plan...laid the Foun dation of Gurmatt...placed the Guiding Principles of Gurmatt...Guru Angad ji and then the Succeeding Guru Sahibs made their own contributions..the Biggest in the First five Gurus would eb the Building of Harmandar Sahib and the Compilation of the  aad Granth....then Miri Piri and settinf up of the Akal Takhat by Guru hargobind Ji..further developments along the smae lines and strengthenign the Miri-Piri concept stronger through Guru Har Rai Ji, Guru Harkishan Ji...and Finally the parchaar tours of Guru Teg babhdur ji..whereby He touched BASE with ALL the places earlier Visited by GURU NANAK JI sahib 180 years before to RENEW THOSE TIES ( This si the REASON we had Panj Piayars who came from as far away as ORRISSA !! a place originally visited by Guru nanak ji..) and awakened the Populace further ..so that Guru Gobind Singh ji could COMPLETE the MISSION OF GURU NANAK JI...and how magnificently He did that..is well known....Guru Gobind Singh Ji ..is Part of a TEAM !! One of the BEST and GREATEST TEAMS ever to be on this Earth !!:happy::happy::welcome::welcome:



I agree with the team part. So far they are probably the best religious team as a core of a religion. However, It could be repeated who knows.


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

The best what i feel about Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobindsinghji Maharaj is he awoke India from the ashes. The people were so downtrodden and that he made them singhs, can u imagine making soldiers out of barbers and potters and other such professionals who did not even have that respect to sit and eat in common !

In not making Guruji a national hero is somewhere our clerics have contributed, they dont want him to be shown here and there however we need to tell India and the world that maybe you might not follow the Khalsa but you will someday recognize our Guruji as your saviour.

I remember some lines from a book written by Swami Vivekanand where it was mentioned that Guru Gobindsinghji was a forgotten hero. Let me try to get the lines for you since i found it to be so well said


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

I finally found the lines 

Swami Vivekananda said, ''The Guru lived and died for Dharma to preserve the values of his motherland and protect the honour of his countrymen''. It is said that when Swamiji narrated the tales of valour and nobility of Guru Gobind Singh to his disciples tears would well up in his eyes while the listeners were fired by the Guru's heroic deeds. In the Zafarnama the Guru addressed Aurangzeb thus: ''A religious man never breaks his promise. You are faithless and unreligious. You know neither God nor Prophet Mohammad...What if my four sons have been killed? It is no heroism to extinguish a few sparks''.


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

another set of lines i found : 

Swami Vivekananda was greatly impacted by the personality and teaching Guru Gobind Singh. He recognized Gobind Singh as one of the most glory heroes of our race. Towards the end same lecture, referring to the conception of religion as realization, whose fruit is universal love and compassion and eulogizing grandeur of the tenth Guru for his universal love and broad vision, said:


Mark me, then and then alone you are a Hindu when the very name sends through you a galvanic shock of strength. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when every man who bears name from any country, speaking your language or any other language, becomes at once the nearest and the dearest to you. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when the distress of anyone bearing that name comes to your heart and makes you fell as if your own son were in distress. *Then and then alone you a Hindu when you will be ready to give up everything for them, like the great example… of Guru Govind Singh… *You might see thousands of defects in your countrymen, but mark their Hindu blood. They are the first Gods you will have to worship even if they do everything to hurt you, even if everyone of them send out a curse to you, you send out to them words of love


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

this is what i was exactly looking for 

Mark me, then and then alone you are a Hindu when the very name sends through you a galvanic shock of strength. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when every man who bears the name, from any country, speaking our language or any other language, becomes at once the nearest and the dearest to you. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when the distress of anyone bearing that name comes to your heart and makes you fell as if your own son were in distress. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when you will be ready to bear everything for them, like the great example I have quoted at the beginning of this lecture, of your great Guru Govind Singh. Driven out from this country, fighting against its oppressors, after having shed his own blood for the defence of the Hindu religion, after having seen his children killed on the battlefield- ay, this example of the great Guru, left even by those for whose sake he was shedding his blood and the blood of his own nearest and dearest-he, the wounded lion, retired from the field calmly to die in the South, but not a word of curse escaped his lips against those who had ungratefully forsaken him! *Mark me; every one of you will have to be a Govind Singh, if you want to do good to your country*. You may see thousands of defects in your countrymen, but mark their Hindu blood. They are the first Gods you will have to worship even if they do everything to hurt you, even if everyone of them send out a curse to you, you send out to them words of love. If they drive you out, retire to die in silence like that mighty lion, Govind Singh. Such a man is worthy of the name of Hindu; such an ideal ought to be before us always. All our hatches let us bury; send out this grand current of love all around”.


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

Volume 6 Page 166 of Complete Works chapter Historical Evolution of India

One great prophet, however, arose in the north, Govind Singh, the last Guru of the Sikhs, with creative genius; and the result of his spiritual work was followed by the well-known political organization of the Sikhs. We have seen throughout the history of India, a spiritual upheaval is almost always succeeded by a political unity extending over more or less area of the continent, which in its turn helps to strengthen the spiritual aspiration that brings it to being. But the spiritual aspiration that preceded the rise of the Mahratta or the Sikh empire was entirely reactionary. We seek in vain to find in the court of Poona or Lahore even a ray of reflection of that intellectual glory which surrounded the courts of the Muguls, much less the brilliance of Malava or Vidyanagara. It was intellectually the darkest period of Indian history; and both these meteoric empires, representing the upheaval of mass-fanaticism and hating culture with all their hearts lost all their motive power as soon as they had succeeded in destroying the rule of the hated Mohammedans.
3. Volume 6 Page 513 of Complete Works chapter Conversations & Dialogues. 
[Place: Balaram Babu’s residence, Calcutta. Year: 1898.]

Swamiji had been staying during the last two days at Balaram Babu’s residence at Baghbazar. He was taking a short stroll on the roof of the house, and the disciple with four or five others was in attendance. While walking to and fro, Swamiji took up the story of Guru Govind Singh and with his great eloquence touched upon the various points in his life - *how the revival of the Sikh sect was brought about by his great renunciation, austerities, fortitude, and life-consecrating labors-how by his initiation he re-Hinduised Mohammedan converts* and took them back into the Sikh community-and how on the banks of the Narmada he brought his wonderful life to a close. Speaking of the great power that used to be infused in those days into the initiates of Guru Govind, Swamiji recited a popular Doha (couplet) of the Sikhs:

The meaning is: “*When Guru Govind gives the Name, i.e. the initiation, a single man becomes strong enough to triumph over a lakh and quarter of his foes.*” Each disciple, deriving from his inspiration a real spiritual devotion had his soul filled with such wonderful heroism! While holding forth thus on the glories of religion, Swamiji’s eyes dilating with enthusiasm seemed to be emitting fire, and his hearers, dumb-stricken and looking at his face, kept watching the wonderful sight.

After a while the disciple said: “Sir, it was very remarkable that Guru Govind could unite both Hindus and Mussulamans within the fold of his religion and lead them both towards the same end. In Indian history, no other example of this can be found.”

Swamiji: Men can never be united unless there is a bond of common interest. You can never unite people merely by getting up meetings, societies, and lectures if their interests be not one and the same. Guru Govind made it understood everywhere that the men of his age, be they Hindus or Mussulmans, were living under a regime of profound injustice and oppression. He did not create any common interest; he only pointed it out to the masses. And so both Hindus and Mussulmans followed him. *He was a great worshipper of Shakti. Yet, in Indian history, such an example is indeed very rare.*


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2009)

faujasingh ji

Let us stipulate that Sri Guru Gobind Singh was *not* a Hindu. I am deeply affected by the grace with which Swami acknowledges the greatness of our Tenth Master. However, I believe that I have myself read a treatise only a few days ago by him in which Guru Gobind Singh is claimed, as is the Sikh religion, to be Hindu.

In this part of the text Swami Vivekenanda comes very close to making that claim:_ Mark me, then and then alone you are a Hindu when the very name sends through you a galvanic shock of strength. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when every man who bears the name, from any country, speaking our language or any other language, becomes at once the nearest and the dearest to you. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when the distress of anyone bearing that name comes to your heart and makes you fell as if your own son were in distress. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when you will be ready to bear everything for them, like the great example I have quoted at the beginning of this lecture, of your great Guru Govind Singh. Driven out from this country, fighting against its oppressors, after having shed his own blood for the defence of the Hindu religion, after having seen his children killed on the battlefield- ay, this example of the great Guru, left even by those for whose sake he was shedding his blood and the blood of his own nearest and dearest-he, the wounded lion, retired from the field calmly to die in the South, but not a word of curse escaped his lips against those who had ungratefully forsaken him! *Mark me; every one of you will have to be a Govind Singh, if you want to do good to your country*. You may see thousands of defects in your countrymen, but mark their Hindu blood. They are the first Gods you will have to worship even if they do everything to hurt you, even if everyone of them send out a curse to you, you send out to them words of love. If they drive you out, retire to die in silence like that mighty lion, Govind Singh. Such a man is worthy of the name of Hindu; such an ideal ought to be before us always. All our hatches let us bury; send out this grand current of love all around”._

In the earlier sections it seems that he was leading up to it. Adherents of Sikhism find this alarming.


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

i dont say that he was hindu, the thing is when swami ji has given the speech at that time such issues were not there perhaps that could be reason that there was no fuss when he said this during his visits to punjab. 

Now none of us sikhs would want to claim we are hindus, those times were different .


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

When i do Paath of Sukhmani Sahib there is so much in the saloks which might sound hindu or pro hindu but that doesnt mean i take that directly since now what is being said and taken is different than what the purpose was at that times. 

I wouldnt want to get into all that political ****, to tell you the truth i am a happy man away from religious bigotory. There are more people fighting over following Dharam rather than following it themselves. Unfortunately i am not one of them. I appreciated the Swami's message and i know that he was not of those types to end my identity and the situation then was so different than what it is now. We dint have kirpans rattling over chairs and tables during Langar. We were simpletons and much better than what we are now.


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## faujasingh (Sep 2, 2009)

i am very upset with the fact that everything here is taken in a political sense, rather than understanding the love for someone we revere by a person who was not of the same path we follow, we are trying to take out meanings what suit the political garbage  in our mindset. Sorry folks but this is not something i was loking towards here.


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## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2009)

faujasingh ji

I apologize if my remarks have upset you. It was only my remarks. No one else has said anything about the concern I raised. So be upset with me. Other members are not to blame.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 2, 2009)

ALTHOUGH..we ARE A TEAM !! and we take collective responsibility ( at least I DO )...individual opinions are just that..individual opinion..nothing more nothing less...SPN gives everyone a right to that opinion and to propogate it..as long as the spn guidelines are followed. No need to paint everyone with the same brush...certainly NOT SPN.

2. I too raise the SAME CONCERNS. Even TODAY the RSS, and several Hindu Arya Samajist organsiations activley continue to claim that Sikhs are Hindus, the Sikh gurus are Hindu devtas awtaars of Vishnu etc, the SGGS is derived from the Vedas, the Harmandir is Temple fo Vishnu...etc etc..these same concerns led to the writing of the book HUM HINDU NAHIN by Kahn Singh Nabha which was taken to court to be banned by the Hindu Arya samajists.but the British defended it as the Sikh Reply. The Hindu marriage Act is enforced on Sikhs and the Anand Marriage Act passed in 1925 is IGNORED. ( this Act is legal in Pakistan ) the Sikhs are considered Hindus in various Govt Acts..under the Property Act too SIKH property is divided accordign to hindu Rights/customs..so THERE are VALID CONCERNS...and they have to be properly settled before we can go around being politically "offended".


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## faujasingh (Sep 3, 2009)

I fail to understand why any discussion would have some other elements into picture. The other sites similiarly have such agenda. To hell with that rss thing, are we here as a sikh forum or a anti rss etc forum. 

I fail to realise where out of the blue all this comes into the discussion. I posted some view and praise of our Guruji by a saint. All i get out of reading those views from those days is that such political mire as of today did not exist. 

Please forgive me, I did not come here for some political discussions. Nobody needs to apologise, its my fault since unfortunately I am not into bashing anyone or any community. I came here for spiritual reasons and since I have a strong feeling in me to do parchaar in a positive manner. There was so much of knowledge I found, going through the website. Unfortunately even spirituality discussions are leading to arya samaj and this and that. 

The other day I walked into a book shop. I asked for religious literature and found a book promoted by some 'shahbaaz khalsa'  showing how bad the radha soami and someone called noormala was.

For heaven sake cant we mind our own business. I am now coming to realise that since we are not concentrating on Naam Simran and the message of our Gurus we are getting jelous over the gains of these so called deras and sampardas.

Are we going to just gain followers by spitting on others ?? When will we get up to realise our shortcomings ?? We teach others when we ourselves are suppose to be 'students' in this world ?? 

Did the Khalsa get established in this way ? Did Guru Maharaj call everyone saying 'Look the guru you follow is nuts he teaches shiiiiit ??? Guru Maharaj asked for their heads.

Book shops with Sikh literature has more of those hatred filled book than the gutkas and banis.

Heaven knows whom are we following. I sometimes feel there will be a day when they will even alter the mool mantar and instead of praising the Karta Purakh , there will be saloks cursing arya samaj and rss and noor mahal.

I am sorry guys. I feel i am too simple to understand what is being preached here.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 3, 2009)

I am sorry guys. I feel i am too simple to understand what is being preached here...
NOTHING is being "PREACHED"...its your personal perception...
About the only things not allowed on SPN are denigrating the Sikh Gurus, SGGS, Gurmatt principles, 5 kakars, khalsa panth, SRM..... and using bad language.
Other than this every individual view is granted enough space...on any subject under the sun and moon and stars..as long as he/she keeps within civilised limits...
So you do "know" about the Shahbaz Khalsa and the RSS etc...thats INDORE for you...thats too is freedom of thought...my personal two cents..ACCEPT what you like..and REJECT what displeases YOU....while remembering that One man's meat is another man's poison.....each has choice...
Warm Regards..enjoy your stay at spn...


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## faujasingh (Sep 3, 2009)

Thanks Gyani ji, I understand your view however try understanding my too. We are not going to reach anywhere by cursing and pin pointing people. I do know a dozen names such as shabaz khalsa and rss and arya samaj.However i know one thing that I am not going to reach the goal with people who keep 'enlightening' others. I dont judge wrong and right in what they do. 

All i feel is we need to spend more time and spread the positiveness of Sikhi rather than those showing faults about other people.

Gyani ji just give it a thought, why are those people going there ? There is something we are missing to give people. We need to improve our standards rather than spend time on criticism


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2009)

faujasingh ji 
*Raj*karega*Khalsa!*

If you run into my friend Raj Khalsa ji also of Indore, give him my regards. :yes:


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## faujasingh (Sep 3, 2009)

Lets hope we run into him some day ! Good to know you have another friend here ! by the way where did he go ?


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2009)

faujasinghji

I am sure you know!:happy:


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## faujasingh (Sep 3, 2009)

You might be ! however presumptions and assumptions are decieving at times !


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2009)

might be what.....?


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## faujasingh (Sep 3, 2009)

you might be sure is what i said however presumptions and assumptions are decieiving


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## arshi (Sep 7, 2009)

Each day we live and learn – at least I do.

Life changes each day and before we know it, it has changed a lot from what it was say ten, twenty years ago, i.e. in my own lifetime (I am in my late sixties) I have seen considerable change in values and things I took for granted – imagine the shift in thinking from what it was hundreds of years ago.

The biggest, age old, problem is that we often entrench ourselves (me included) in our comfortable positions and defend that position come what may. 

Here I can see both sides of the argument, spirituality and politicisation of issues. When we make a statement such as *“Guru Gobind Singh is the greatest” *we will attract some political reaction. However, if we expound on a particular aspect of Gurbani, it will, generally, stay within a discussion focussing on spirituality. 

Let us take the first statement“Guru Gobind Singh is the greatest”. Often when we say it we are not making a political statement. To me, personally, he has been the greatest and there will be no one like him again in Kalyug. That is my belief as is the fact that were it not for Guru Nanak there would be no Gobind Singh and vice versa. The point is Guru Gobind Singh was the Tenth Nanak and all forms of Nanak, for me, were pre-ordained and were the greatest. The extensive tours of Guru Nanak, the sewa, dedication and unflinching loyalty of Guru Angad Dev Ji, the humility of Guru Amar Das Ji, the ingenuity and _ghalna_ of Guru Ram Das Ji, the serenity and supreme sacrifice of Guru Arjan Dev Ji, I could go on…. 

There are occasions when I hear the name of Nanak and it sends a sensation through my body, mind and soul, hard to describe. The name of Nanak does not represent only the first _jama_ but also his nine successors and Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sikhi as a whole – what Sikhi has done for the underdog, the down trodden - the supreme sacrifices of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and his valiant Sikhs must not be overlooked.

There is no doubt that Indians have not truly appreciated the contribution of the Sikh Gurus, in particular those of Guru Teg Bahadur ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji, and we Sikhs often feel the hurt. Therefore, this fact is at the back of our minds (and it makes us sensitive) and hence sometimes when we hear back-handed compliments, it makes our blood boil. But how should we go about it? Mudslinging, in my opinion, is not the answer, we must argue from a position of strength and for that we must, first, put our own house in order. We must not let splinter groups upset us - they were always there, even in the times of our Gurus (see how Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji was revealed by Makhan Shah Lubhana) and they will always be there in the future. But the good thing is they will come and go provided we stay firm and steadfast in our beliefs.

Now coming to spirituality, I notice there is less interest in this and more in argument and debate. *There is nothing wrong in healthy debate but often it becomes the end and not the means*. Some of us get obsessed by this activity and spend more time on it then on meditating and understanding Gurbani. I feel I am lucky to have grown up in the pre-internet era and to have experienced a much simpler mode of life. These days there is a tendency to skip the ‘meditation hour’ and instead spend it flicking through the pages on the internet.

There are only twenty four hours in the day and for most of us these run in a regular pattern: 

(1)
Get up in the morning, say our prayers, have breakfast;
(2)
work between, say, 9 am to 5 pm; 
(3)
Eat, socialise, pray, read or watch TV between 6.00 pm to 11 pm. 
(4)
Sleep.

For most of us, we have no or little control on *(2)* above and the remembrance of the Lord will depend a lot on how we discipline ourselves in *(1)* and *(3)*. We generally, in speak terms, refer to *(1)* as _amrit vela_ and *(3)* as _rehras da vela _I have no intention of going into theinterpretation of these termshere as these will require separate threads_ – _suffice to say, for now, that the words do change their meaning according to the context in which they are used.Discipline is important in any field and it is even more important in respect of our spirituality, since the time to practice this is very limited. If you are a professional athlete, for example, then you have most times of the day at your disposal. However, in the case of our faith, the time is limited. Unfortunately the mornings and the evenings, whilst more under our control than *(2)* above, do have other claims on them and most of us end up spending little time on meditation, interpretation of Gurbani and history. Some believe they can do so at other times of the day and that there are no specific times of the day earmarked for meditation. True, but how many of us are able to do so. For most, I am afraid this becomes an excuse more than justifiable reason. I must add that from mediation point of view this can be done at any time of the day – here we are discussing the practicality of the issue.

It is also curious to find that *‘Spiritual Articles’*, on the SPN format is the last sub-heading under the last heading, although I do admit there are other headings where matters of spirituality can be discussed – but it is not always easy to make the correct selection. Perhaps the format needs to be simplified, which I understand is already in hand. 

I apolgise for the long post and any sentiments I may have, unintentionally, treaded upon.

Humbly

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## spnadmin (Sep 7, 2009)

Many thanks for the suggestion arshi ji - as we don't have a good understanding of how the organization of the forum sections really works for the reader/members unless they tell us. The home page is continually being revamped and we will take your suggestion to heart. It may take some time before we make progress on this point.


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