# Kirpan During Air Travel



## jasbirsingh (Sep 3, 2006)

i need ur help ,
i m an amrit dhari .residing in india.next month i m on company tour & the mode of travel is by air.so can any body tell me wether i can carry my shri sahib(kirpan) along with me during the flight .please help me as if i m not allowed to keep shri sahib along with me,i think should go by train or withdraw my name.
Jasbir singh


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## drkhalsa (Sep 3, 2006)

*Re: kirpan during airtravel*

Dear Jasbir Singh


I appreciate your feelings abouot the Kakaars .

But in practicle there is no problem parting with kakaars for a valis reason and all peopel do this even SGPC cheifs do so for their air Travel and It is absolutely Alright 

I wish you best of luck for your business venture !


Jatinder Singh


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## DragonKhanda (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: kirpan during airtravel*

You have to do an Ardaas first; Whenever you have such a question no one can answer, There is no one between the Amritdhari and God. Ask God for his forgiveness that you are doing this to him when you swore in your oaths. Set out rules and stick by them, like you will so much paat of this  a day. Like 5 malas of Mool Mantr a day. If you could just take them off, what was the point of taking an oath not to?

Just bacause someone else does it does not give you right. You dont know if they did an Ardaas or what! Understand the whole story before you go displaying opinions.

Sat sri Akal


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## drkhalsa (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: kirpan during airtravel*

Dear Friend 


Sorry if my opinion offeneded you 
Unfortunately this forum is about giving your opiniion according to understanding given to you by Akal so in my case surely i can be less than yours so forgive me 


Now about Kakkars I still Believ that the physical parting with Kakkars for temprrary practicle reason does not matter at allas it is not Jnaeu .

We should all try to make it possible for all Amritdhari to have this previlage of keeping all kakars all the time , this fight should go on but till this happen one should miss on practicle issues of life and which parting with kakaars is not targeted to oprees you in any manner 

About Bibi Jagir Kaur ji she more colorful issues in her stride like criminal case for killing her pregnant daughter . and we have one respected Sikh MLA who refused to part with Kirpan and remained outside Parliament all the term, sacrifising the basic interest of his post .


So when airlines tell you part with Kirpan then they are acting mughals to opress you or degrade your religion . they are just making it sure that every body feel and is safe.




Thnx


Jatinder Singh

thnks


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## MKAUR1981 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: kirpan during airtravel*

WJKK WJKF.  Jasbir, I'm not an Amritdhari, but my mother-in-law who is was asked to remove her Kirpan at Delhi airport.  (London Heathrow were fine and let her wear the Kirpan).  By the time we reached London, the airline had lost it.  However, my mother-in-law had already decided that she would go back to the Gurdwara and presented herself to the Panj Pyare and took Amrit again.


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## kds1980 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: kirpan during airtravel*



			
				drkhalsa said:
			
		

> Dear Friend
> 
> 
> Sorry if my opinion offeneded you
> ...



i agree with dr khalsa .temporary removel of kakkars for practical reason is o.k.if amritdhari people cannot
even travel by air then how could we expect more sikhs to become amritdhari


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## jasbirsingh (Sep 4, 2006)

thanx freinds for ur veiws,please think into the matter again.at this time i think i should spent  afew more hours in train rather than making myself rest less inside.

i m sure i will get some better option .thanks again for ur concern.


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## Arvind (Sep 5, 2006)

jasbirsingh veer,

What about an international travel, where this rule is enforced. 

Regards.


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## HannahBanana (Sep 14, 2006)

What about school? We are not allowed to bring so called "weapons" to school.


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## MKAUR1981 (Sep 15, 2006)

HannahBanana said:
			
		

> What about school? We are not allowed to bring so called "weapons" to school.


 
1) Firstly, please do not call the Shri Sahib/Kirpan "so-called" weapon.  

2) Secondly, it depends on what school you go.  Certain schools allow them and have restrictions e.g have a small Kirpan.


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## Arvind (Sep 15, 2006)

HannahBanana said:
			
		

> What about school? We are not allowed to bring so called "weapons" to school.


 Many schools, offices, governments allow sikhs to go with 5Ks. Wherever it is not allowed, sikhs are fighting their ways out. You may like to look at court verdicts in which school parents/teachers objected, but court favoured towards sikh rights.


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## CaliforniaSeeker (Sep 15, 2006)

MKAUR1981 said:
			
		

> 1) Firstly, please do not call the Shri Sahib/Kirpan "so-called" weapon.


I think what HannahBanana Ji meant is that they are not allowed to have anything that the school authorities consider a "weapon". Unfortunately, many people who don't know about Sikhi see a kirpan and think "dagger" or "knife" or "weapon". Over the past few years, I've seen many reports from SALDEF (the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund) about similar cases. As I remember, in most of them, SALDEF has been able to educate the local authorities and come to agreements that allow Sikhs to carry their kirpans without compromising the authorities' concerns about safety.

HannahBanana Ji -- from the reading I've done on the subject, my understanding is that kirpans come in a range of sizes, from quite large to very small. Some Sikhs choose to wear kirpans that are so small they're almost purely symbolic (I can't imagine using a 1-inch-long kirpan to defend anyone). In most of the discussions I've read, the participants eventually agreed that it's an individual decision.


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## kds1980 (Sep 15, 2006)

to all

HB is just a 14 year old girl who is embracing sikhism.she also said that her mother is not supporting her.i don't think she can convince school authorities about kirpan.


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## HannahBanana (Sep 15, 2006)

California Seeker, thank you, that is what I meant. I do not see it as a weapon. When I said "so called" I meant it as others might react. 

And kds, true, which is why I am having trouble with this.


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## HannahBanana (Sep 17, 2006)

Anyway, would it be possible for me to wear a small kirpan necklace?


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## kds1980 (Sep 17, 2006)

HannahBanana said:
			
		

> Anyway, would it be possible for me to wear a small kirpan necklace?



yes you can wear 1 inch kirpan as necklace.


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## HannahBanana (Sep 17, 2006)

Great! Thanks!


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## BaljeetSingh (Sep 24, 2006)

I always wondered about this sensitive question. I travel by air every week within USA and I do not carry kirpan of any size when I travel. I have never been able to find a convincing answer to this question.

Kirpan size does not matter (anymore). It used to be 3 feet long and then British minatuarized it to 6 inches...and now in USA, kirpan of 2-3 inches is allowed in schools. Carrying 1 inch kirpan as necklace is common. That day is not too far when people will just tattoo kirpan on their body and claim to be complete Sikh.


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## thecoopes (Sep 28, 2006)

MKAUR1981 said:


> 1) Firstly, please do not call the Shri Sahib/Kirpan "so-called" weapon.
> 
> 2) Secondly, it depends on what school you go. Certain schools allow them and have restrictions e.g have a small Kirpan.


 
Good morning all lovers of peace.

Can someone please explain in simple straightforward terms how this Kirpan came to hold such importance to the Sikh faith?
Did Sikh always have this weapon?
When was it incorporated into the spirit of the Sikh tenets as an article of faith?

Also for the mind of a cynical Westerner who sees religion as an all pervasive means of control, do you not think that all religions could dig into their beliefs and come up with unacceptable practises that would be offensive or dangerous to other non believers?

For example, here in Britain we appear to hear nothing but the complaints of Muslims who demand the right to do things we find offensive and yet we cannot refuse there demands as these are part of their beliefs!


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## Arvind (Sep 28, 2006)

Dear John,

Sikhi arrived when forcible conversions were on, and there was little freedom of religion.

Sikh Gurus raised the voice against the social injustices in various forms. Finally, Guru Gobind Singh brought Khalsa forward with a msg like - when all peaceful means fail, it is ok to raise a sword. First importance is ALWAYS to peace, but when all means to bring brain back to head fail, it is ok to do the needful.

I tried my best, may be other members could explain better.

Thanks for asking.

Regards, Arvind.


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## thecoopes (Sep 28, 2006)

Arvind said:


> Dear John,
> 
> Sikhi arrived when forcible conversions were on, and there was little freedom of religion.
> 
> ...


 

Thanks Arvind I understand a little better.
Now I know Sikh do not believe like Muslim that they must convert infidel by word or sword, so for me having Sikh with Knife is no problem.

However with all the problems we now have and the very real fear that someone with a knife who went mad could bring down a plane, is it not possible for dear Sikh friends to put their knife in the hold? 
Why would this compromise Sikh faith?:wink:


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## kds1980 (Sep 28, 2006)

dear coopes the problem is that some sects of sikhism is aggressively promoting that 5ks should not be separated from the body for even a single minute which i disagree.you are right some fake guys could hijack plane pretending to be a sikh.those sects should understand this.


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## thecoopes (Sep 29, 2006)

kds1980 said:


> dear coopes the problem is that some sects of sikhism is aggressively promoting that 5ks should not be separated from the body for even a single minute which i disagree.you are right some fake guys could hijack plane pretending to be a sikh.those sects should understand this.


 
Do you think that this could ever be resolved so that Sikh does not feel that they have compromised their beliefs and the rest of us don’t have to worry whether the person who just boarded the plane is true Sikh and not some deranged terrorist who is pretending to be Sikh? 
Also what if Sikh was overpowered by deranged lunatic and that lunatic got hold of Kirpan and proceeded to jihad on fellow passengers?
I have every sympathy with Sikh’s but feel that this is a non negotiable law.

Plane + Kirpan = danger


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## kds1980 (Sep 29, 2006)

thecoopes said:


> Do you think that this could ever be resolved so that Sikh does not feel that they have compromised their beliefs and the rest of us don’t have to worry whether the person who just boarded the plane is true Sikh and not some deranged terrorist who is pretending to be Sikh?
> Also what if Sikh was overpowered by deranged lunatic and that lunatic got hold of Kirpan and proceeded to jihad on fellow passengers?
> I have every sympathy with Sikh’s but feel that this is a non negotiable law.
> 
> Plane + Kirpan = danger



dear coopes

   what do you mean by resolved?majority of sikhs are non amritdhari they don't even wear kirpan.akal
takhat the highest body of sikhs has never said anything that sikhs should not remove kirpan.as i earlier said some sects are aggressively promoting
this so if you want that they should be satisfied then
i don't think it is possible.i agree with you that this is non negotiable law.those orthodox sikhs should understand this or they should not travel by air.
i don't want any tragedy to  happen involing a sikh
or a fake.


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## thecoopes (Sep 30, 2006)

kds1980 said:


> dear coopes
> 
> what do you mean by resolved?majority of sikhs are non amritdhari they don't even wear kirpan.akal
> takhat the highest body of sikhs has never said anything that sikhs should not remove kirpan.as i earlier said some sects are aggressively promoting
> ...


 
O, sorry. I thought Kirpan was becoming an issue with Sikh’s. We had at Manchester airport an issue with a Sikh and Kirpan  earlier this year.:{- 

Regards

John c


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## BaljeetSingh (Oct 2, 2006)

Dear John - I live in USA and recently made a presentation about Sikhs to local Police Cheif. The police cheif was very cooperative and asked me similar question about removing kirpan from a Sikh's person when searching a (Sikh) suspect stopped on a highway for any reason. I did not have a simple yes or no answer to that question without provoking an angry response from one section of Sikhs.

I travel by air with USA on a weekly basis and have decided to travel without a kirpan. I feel like I have left a portion of myself at home. The reason being that we as Sikhs pray in our daily prayers..."Jaha Jaha Khalsa Taha Taha Racchaiya Rihayat" meaning...wherever there is Khalsa, there is protection to weak. A Sikh is duty bound to help. A Sikh can be identified in a crowd of hundreds with his turban. So, I am not sure if there is a need to help, will I be able to protect (without my kirpaan).

As regards it is a non-negotiable law....Well....laws are changed every day in all countries. The term is called Constitution Amendment. What we as Sikhs need to do is lobby the law makers and come up with a reasonable solution to this "issue" and amend the law as necessary. What that reasonable solution is something I do not have a clear answer (yet).

Regards


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## jasbirsingh (Oct 13, 2006)

guru fateh every body,read the discussion ..
dont laugh but i m serious,
today v need our own air lines AIR-KHALSA to stop making fun of commitment s made before guru roop panj pyares.v need some l n mittals.& few bill gates in our community.. b,cos without good money & power nothing is possible.
guru fateh


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## manmitchera (Oct 13, 2006)

nothing wrong with it


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## manjeet007 (Oct 17, 2006)

hi,
 i really appreciate ur feeling towards the shri saheb

personnally i feel there is no problem keeping the shri saheb away for some time, it is ur feeling, ur attachment towards the shri saheb that matters unless u abides the teachings of the akal purakh it's all right


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## kaur-1 (Oct 17, 2006)

jasbirsingh said:


> guru fateh every body,read the discussion ..
> dont laugh but i m serious,
> today v need our own air lines AIR-KHALSA to stop making fun of commitment s made before guru roop panj pyares.v need some l n mittals.& few bill gates in our community.. b,cos without good money & power nothing is possible.
> guru fateh



You are correct. Lets all do sincere Ardaas for this.


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## khoobkhalsa (Oct 21, 2006)

I beleive that in real life the practice of temporarily parting with kakaars for a valid reason should be fine.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 22, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das uses smaller version of Kirpan on air.In UK, India,Russia and UAE,it is fine.

Das has worked with the securty agency.As per law in India,we can have Kirpan on all domestic flights but shoulkd be less then 6' and blade not more the 2.5'.And some time this law could be suspended after 9/11 and in past Pro Khalistan guys did highjacked Indian plane with Kirpans.

But at present planes are such that,that they can be highjacked but soon,we will have a sort of plane taking half hour from London to newYork and to open the {censored}pit,it may take 45 mintutes.

Only way that could be left would be crash the plane due to de comprression as that plane will be not in air but more in 'space' or outer ost fringe of atomsphere.

So we can have knife proof windows in which first iron grill needs to be broken before glass can be broken.Or in emergeny an iron grill can cover glaass.

We some time have to think like a terrorist before we actuly make way to conter them.

So some one can take our guise and can highjack if large Kirpan is there.

But if we have locks of speacial types provided by air authorities,then can surrong our Kirpan during flights and can be opened after flight is over.Therre could be some practialce problems in that but we can over come that.Sky Marshalls can be trained to over come knife attacks also.


Lastly,it is fact that to be Singh,we have to get baptised.And after that we have to have Kirpan or Kirpa Pan or Hand of mercy by Akal.

But as we are told to use Kirpan to protect and not to kill,but someone not among us but posing like us can create problems.But this situation will change one day.

Even after wearing small Kirpan during air trevel,das use to go to Gurudwara,to seek pardoning for adjusting to present circumstances,not our fult nor the fault of authorities but due to evil Jehadis.


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## jasbirsingh (Nov 14, 2006)

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA,WAHEGURu JI KI FATEH,
thanks --thanks a lot.NOW I FEEL GOOD .

thanx  jasbir


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## adeep646 (Nov 26, 2006)

WjiK WjiF
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not say anything about the "amrit" (sweet water) that people drink from 5 impure persons and call themselves cleansed amrit dahri's. The 5 Pyare were Sants who gave the Satguru everything. and Ona 5 Sach de Darshan Karai ate Sach vich Samagge.you should first become a Sant before you become Sant-Sipahi. The Sukhmani Sahib describes who is a true Sant. Those that have been blessed to know the Akath Katha and to spread this knowledge. The Guru Granth SAhib JI  describes, explains the road to MILAP. you must wash the mind, by washing the body you do not become pure.


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