# Fasting: Penance, Blessing, Hypocrisy Or Me-ism?



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 23, 2013)

*Fasting: Penance, Blessing, Hypocrisy or Me-ism.*


Fasting is very common among many religions except in Sikhi. Guru Nanak talks about it in the second Pauri of Jap where he criticises these kinds of nonsensical, mindless and useless rituals which bring to naught.

For Guru Nanak, it is all about living in Ik Ong Kaar’s Hukam in all aspects of life.

This kind of self-inflicted suffering cannot be food for a thought-Mann- but to the contrary.

We offer Langar instead, the most humanitarian thing to do.

There are many studies that show that Muslims gain weight during Ramadan because of the food binging before and after.

The Catholics, during Lent after Easter only eat fish for a month and we see all the fast food restaurants offering the deep fried mercury laden fish to the pious ones which is very unhealthy.

Fasting is also used as a sign of protest. Gandhi used it. Mastar Tara Singh did the same and so did Sant Fateh Singh, the head of Akaali Dal many years ago. During the fasting, people drank salt water only in order not to get dehydrated.

My family has been Akaalis from the very beginning. In fact, Pita ji, my granddad who was a Doctor and a Lawyer at that time, which was a great feat on its own, left his practices to go to the prison in order to get the keys of the Gurdwaras from the Mahants.

Once Sant Fateh Singh went on a hunger strike and I may have been 6 or 7 did the same. I was very hungry all day long but in my own little way did it for the panth as a protest and felt very proud. Mind you, I also was part of the Punjabi Soobha protest march during the same time and was behind bars for 10 minutes which made me feel happy for some reason.

My mum used to keep Karva Choth fast (a Hindu ritual) once a year but the best part of  that was what we as kids used to love it were the goodies being gorged both before the sunrise and after the sunset and we were part of the goodies all day long

Many prisoners at Gitmo who have never been charged of any crimes have been on hunger strikes for many months but are force fed by our government.

Let’s start a conversation:

1.	Do you fast for any reason? Please express why.
2.	Is fasting for religious purposes a good or bad thing?
3.	What does fasting mean in people’s lives?
4.	Does fasting make them live in an honest manner after taking part in this ritual?
5.	Is force feeding the prisoners at Gitmo  right or wrong? Please explain your reasons.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 23, 2013)

*Re: Fasting- Hypocricy,Penance,Blessing or Me-ism.*

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/02/Fasting-Chart.aspx


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 23, 2013)

Parents up in arms against Sungai Buloh school

BY TRINNA LEONG, KIMBERLY YEO AND DIYANA IBRAHIM


"There must be a better way of doing this. Even if it is the fasting month, there is no harm in allowing non-Muslim children from eating at the canteen."

This was the view of a parent, Mastura Abdullah Sani, 22, who expressed shock after learning that non-Muslim pupils of SK Seri Pristina in Sungai Buloh were ordered to have their meals in the school shower room.

Parents who turned up to collect their children from the school this evening were puzzled why the school authorities had resorted to such a measure.

There were also others who turned up at the school gates this evening just to see what was happening after word spread that non-Muslims pupils of the school were ordered to spend the recess, eating in the shower room.

"This is wrong," said another parent who wanted to be identified only as Zarimah.

"I know for a fact that earlier, the children were allowed to use the canteen, but suddenly the canteen was shut.

"They could have used one of the classrooms instead of the shower room," she said.

Several parents claimed that the canteen was out-of-bounds after the operator closed shop for the fasting month. The school authorities tied a red tape around the premises to stop children from using the place.

The case of schoolchildren dining in a shower room during recess would not have seen light if not for a concerned parent who did her own investigations.

The woman, who has a daughter studying there, was skeptical when told about this last Saturday by a school van driver.

The mother, identifying herself only as Guneswari, visited the school on Monday and what she saw shocked her.

"The non-Muslim students were put in the shower room, which is adjacent to the toilet.

"The doors to the shower room were closed, there was no ventilation. The smell from the toilet was so strong," she told The Malaysian Insider.

Incensed that her daughter was treated in a such a manner, Guneswari demanded an explanation from the school authorities. She met the school's afternoon supervisor.

But when there was no response forthcoming, Guneswari decided to expose what was going on in the school.

Her posting on Facebook has now gone viral. It has garnered more than 3,000 shares.

Guneswari also dismissed reports earlier today that the canteen was allegedly closed for renovations.

“You can see it on my Facebook page. There is nothing going on in the canteen," she said.

After the Facebook posting became viral, Education Ministry officials showed up at the school this afternoon where they inspected the shower room and canteen. They also spoke to the school administration.

Deputy Education Minister P. Kamalanathan later said that they have ordered the school to stop asking the non-Muslims pupils to have their meals at the shower room.

A police report over the incident was also lodged at the Sungai Buloh police station this evening. - July 23, 2013.






http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/parents-up-in-arms-against-sungai-buloh-school


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 23, 2013)

*TSA Ramadan Guidelines Spark Controversy*

The TSA has released an advisory to travelers about what they might witness from Muslims observing Ramadan, leading to a debate about whether the release puts an unfair spotlight on the Muslim community.

During a discussion about the issue on HuffPost Live, Muslim Public Affairs Council Director Haris Tarin argued the TSA advisory makes Muslims seem "quite alien."

"Although well intentioned, it unfortunately brings out the sense that muslims become this fifth column or this completely different group of people for the month of Ramadan," Tarin said.

Another voice against the TSA's guidelines is Melody Moezzi, a UN global expert who said the TSA has not taken similar measures for other religious holidays.

"Have they done this for Ash Wednesday, just to tell everybody that people may have ash on their foreheads, or people may be genuflecting more when it's Lent or things like that?" Moezzi said.

HuffPost Live's Marc Lamont Hill pointed out that the TSA has released guidelines for Jewish holidays, particularly "ones that are less understood."'

One can watch the video below:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...delines-controversy_n_3641020.html?ref=topbar


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2013)

Attached are the TSA guidelines that are subject of controversy in the video. Muslim spokesmen are very concerned.

Some brief statements. "Muslims become a 5th column, go into full spiritual molt, it is probably well-intended, ............................spiritual practices become "securitized," definitely insulting, treating us differently, criminalization of culture in the name of security..........to assume that travelers don't know about it!"

The Muslim advocates seem to go with training flight personnel, but reject publication of guidelines of any kind. Toward the very end there is some support for the use of video.

So how are we different? 

Sikhs have done hand-stands to educate the TSA, and the public, about the turban and kirpan. We have struggled to gain accommodations to avoid turban searches, to arrive at other ways to conduct turban searches, and to carry kirpan on airlines. We do this through training sessions with TSA operatives and pilots and fight attendants, meetings with Homeland Security and TSA leadership, TSA web site notices, pdf downloads of Sikh beliefs and practices, press releases, public meetings, television appearances and YouTube. And our organizations - Sikh Coalition and SALDEF - have been eminently successful.

A flight attendant who spoke made the very good point that the goal of the advisory is not so much to educate the public but to educate the personnel at the checkpoints who are quick to draw the wrong conclusions and then violate the personal dignity of Muslims. Listen to the flight attendant, because he makes many practical points that are based in reality not ideology. 

So why do we advocate for education and Muslims are offended by this small attempt to educate? What am I missing?


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## angrisha (Jul 24, 2013)

I think fasting does have a place with in religious practices, it is  something that has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years.  Practices of sitting in meditation could mean that individuals could go  days or longer without food or water. There are theories in this world,  that there are people who can become so in touch with the divine that  they can essentially subsist on air. Might seem impossible, but I think  we know that you really cant rule anything out. 

I think many  religions use fasting as a means of discipline for the body. It takes an  immense amount of self control to fast for 30+days straight, and that  type discipline can carry forward into your everyday life and how you  remember god on a daily basis. Its the same thing as wearing an  religious artifact to symbolize something, the reason you wear it is to  remind you on a min by min bases to maintain that connection with god. 

The   interesting thing becomes when ppl use fasting (of anything really  doesn't have to be food) to get something for themselves. Like,  abstaining from food as a bargaining tool to receive what you want. Its  interesting because God has never asked anyone to give up anything,  other than the preconceived notions which we keep in our minds about  him. So, I do wonder when ppl who fast for a purpose beyond connection,  what happens when they don't receive it.... or even if they do? 


Meaning  of fasting, will vary to each individual depending on your mindset as to  why your partaking in that practice. Same with the honesty, you can  fast all you want and never be an honest person. Anand sahib summaries  this very nicely:

Jī▫ahu maile bāhrahu nirmal, Bāhrahu nirmal jī▫ahu ṯa maile ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā.

The Gitmo issue is something that can ethically be considered on both  sides, IMO either way they're getting their point across... weather  they dont eat or being forced to eat it brings recognition  to the issue  at hand... and wasnt that the point to begin with?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2013)

Every minute spent fasting is a minute spent in the self.

It is unnatural and completely pointless and more importantly, benefits no one. Instead of fasting for 8 hours, spend an hour feeding beggars, you get to eat instead of being hungry, you get to help someone and you  save 7 hours!


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## akiva (Jul 24, 2013)

Is Guru Ji's objection to *fasting*, or *mindless, meaningless* fasting?

How can mindful, meaningful fasting be worse than mindless, meaningless Langar?

(Specifically asking as a personal spiritual discipline, *not* in terms of service to others)

Akiva


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Jul 24, 2013)

spirituality in sikhism means when our true self starts manifesting..anything related to mind and body are not considered spirituality..sins in sikhism understanding are only washed thru love to god, the rest all including rituals are just flattering our ego or haumai... all types of practices applying pain n suffering to mind n body are rejected because it can lead to pride...only practices that leads to humality are well approved in sikhism.. food for our soul are names of god not anything else.. with names it rises.


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## akiva (Jul 24, 2013)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> all types of practices applying pain n suffering to mind n body are rejected because it can lead to pride...only practices that leads to humality are well approved in sikhism..



*Anything* can lead to pride - by your standard the Turban Pride movement of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj should be forbidden as well.


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## akiva (Jul 24, 2013)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> spirituality in sikhism means when our true self starts manifesting



But one's true self can't truly manifest while being mastered by the body/lusts - and while one is attached to the material world.

Simran/meditation can help develop control/discipline of one's physical attachments.

So can meaningful fasting.

So can exercise.

Everyone has to find their own way.

FWIW, limited Fasting (one day a week) has been medically documented to be beneficial to health and longevity.


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2013)

akiva said:


> Is Guru Ji's objection to *fasting*, or *mindless, meaningless* fasting?
> 
> How can mindful, meaningful fasting be worse than mindless, meaningless Langar?
> 
> ...



akiva ji


Mindful fasting would not be any better or worse than mindful langar; and mindless, meaningless fasting also would not be any better or any worse than mindless, meaningless langar.

To the subject of fasting: Many shabads liken fasting to a practice that enables pride of self to be disguised as humility, and arrogance to be disguised as self-deprivation. Shabad Guru is not wagging a finger at langar or Turban Day or Turban Pride. Shabad Guru is calling us to consider whether we are deluding ourselves when we fast. 

And of course we can delude ourselves in langar and in Turban Day. Langar practices in recent times have been similarly criticized when they are shows of personal wealth and keeping up with the 'jones'es' which can be the case in congregations that have rotating langar seva. But your question goes off the topic of fasting and puts focus onto the mindless and meaningless aspect of any and many an activity in which we take pride. It is like changing the subject line on an email message from "Fasting" to "Pride and the False Self." 

Are there any  forms of fasting that do not of themselves lead to fake humility and false pride in a false self? That question underlies Guru Nanak's objections to fasting.  

I think fasting before a medical procedure does have a mindful purpose and would not of itself lead to pride. Are there others?

Of course there are people who can turn anything, including fasting before a medical procedure, into an opportunity to gild themselves with religious merit.

What do you mean by "meaningful" fasting?


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2013)

akiva said:


> *Anything* can lead to pride - by your standard the Turban Pride movement of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj should be forbidden as well.



Akiva ji Yes, "Everyone has to find his own way." However that is a kind of red herring. The Sikh way - Sikh maarg is guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The thread is an opportunity to find out how other religions see value in fasting, which does not in any way nullify the objections to fasting voiced by Guru Nanak.

I am not familiar with the Turban Pride movement of the "Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj" per se, though I am familiar with Turban Days at gurdwaras. Turban Days are intended to teach the meaning of the turban as part of Sikh identity to children. From that children (and we hope adults) learn how the turban was central to overcoming pride of caste and class consciousness in the social history of Sikhi.  It is also supposed to give them the courage they need to contend with humiliation. Being humble and being OK with humiliation are not interchangeable notions. Being prideful and being proud of the turban are also not interchangeable concepts.


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## akiva (Jul 24, 2013)

spnadmin Ji



spnadmin said:


> Are there any  forms of fasting that do not of themselves lead to fake humility and false pride in a false self? That question underlies Guru Nanak's objections to fasting.



Of course. Religious fasting doesn't have to lead to fake humility and false pride -- that depends on the individual.

It's a *tool*.

but fake humility and false pride can sneak into *any* action -- that doesn't in itself invalidate the action.



spnadmin said:


> What do you mean by "meaningful" fasting?



Anyone fasting *just* because it's expected socially/religiously is *not* being meaningful.

Someone fasting with a specific reason/goal -- and *aware* of that reason.

(I'm using "aware" in the"spiritual" usage -- more than just "knowing" -- it implies a deeper integrated knowing.)

As such there has to be a "honesty" about the reason for fasting.

For some fasting is a way of mortifying the flesh; for some a way of sharing, if just for a short while, the hunger of those without in order to increase their sensitivity to the other's plight; for some it's a discipline -- to train the body to eat when the *mind* chooses to eat, not when *desire* wants to. To realize that food is not a "given"

And the fact is that fasting does change one's state of consciousness -- due in part to the lower blood sugar and fluid levels -- enabling the person fasting to think/perceive in a different way.

if one learns/grows from it then it's meaningful. if it's an empty ritual then it's not.


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## SaintSoldier1699 (Jul 24, 2013)

1.	Do you fast for any reason? Please express why.

I think when we call it fasting it adds much more than is really required sometimes.  I started to experiment with fasting over a year ago just to understand what real hunger is.  We have come to think that we need 3-6 meals a day etc and most is habit when in reality I have a desk job, I do not require that much sustenance during the day as I originally thought so go without till the evening, benefits I can claim are better focus, cost/time saving!

2.	Is fasting for religious purposes a good or bad thing?

When religion gets combined with fasting, the original lesson is long lost later on down the line.  It then turns into a, your good if you fast and bad if you don't, people getting paranoid if they break a fast, guilt, get gifts from "god" for keeping it, binging which defies the whole point etc.


3.	What does fasting mean in people’s lives?

For me it's just a change in my relationship with food, amount, timings what works best for me.  For the majority religious fasts I think its more a trade with "God" for bounties!

4.	Does fasting make them live in an honest manner after taking part in this ritual?

Maybe a very small percentage.  As most feel if they behave for the duration of the fast is most important and resume to normal behavior afterwards thus, in reality a sham, similar to thinking taking a bath in sacred rivers will purify yourself only to have a clean slate to fill again!

5.	Is force feeding the prisoners at Gitmo right or wrong? Please explain your reasons. 

I think everyone has a choice in what to eat, when to eat and if some choose not to for whatever reasons so, this is oppressing those rights?  But flipside is the prison has a responsibility to keep the prisoners safe?  It's a difficult one that I would need to ponder over.


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## angrisha (Jul 24, 2013)

The purpose of intention plays a big role in why anything is ever done. If you perform Seva for praise then are you really showing humility or feeding your ego? But there is also the point that no one gets there over night, and you have to take steps even if your intention might not be pure, with the goal in mind that one day you will reach that point where it is. So everyone has to start somewhere, just going through the motions to start, cultivating the idea of proper intention before we can fully engage in it with 'meaning'. 

The concept of meaning is also relevant... whats meaningful to me to be in service to god might not be the same to someone else. So, the purpose then becomes, which allows you to live at your highest and best self... which is always changing. 



spnadmin said:


> Turban Days are intended to teach the meaning of the turban as part of Sikh identity to children.



Heres a question about relating to a religious identity, if you start associating what you do 'religiously' to a culture arent we breeding more unconsciousness? In the sense that 'turban days' might make it okay for insecurities some children have of being different (especially in areas with few punjabi ppl), but do we then start to associate the turban as a cultural tool rather than one that can be used to facilitate a connection?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2013)

angrisha ji,

Guru fateh.

Before I get into the intricacies of the thread, I have noticed that you have used the word *God *often in your posts:



> There are theories in this world, that there are people who can become so in touch with *the divine* that they can essentially subsist on air.





> I think many religions use fasting as a means of discipline for the body. It takes an immense amount of self control to fast for 30+days straight, and that type discipline can carry forward into your everyday life and *how you remember god on a daily basis.
> *





> Its the same thing as wearing an religious artifact to symbolize something, *the reason you wear it is to remind you on a min by min bases to maintain that connection with god. *





> *Its interesting because God has never asked anyone to give up anything, other than the preconceived notions which we keep in our minds about him.*





> *The concept of meaning is also relevant... whats meaningful to me to be in service to god might not be the same to someone else. So, the purpose then becomes, which allows you to live at your highest and best self... which is always changing.*



Would you be kind enough to describe what you consider is *God* in your own words, so I can understand better where you are coming from?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## SaintSoldier1699 (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm glad you brought this up Tejwant veer ji.

"God" - use of speech marks is deliberate as in 99% of cases its used as an external entity, something out there somewhere that we look towards, picture, want to pursue, worship.

The more I contemplate the divine nature (Kudrat) the more I realise I need to go through a process of reverse engineering to get this "God" thinking out of my mind!  But years of brain washing by elders, friends, religions, movies, pictures, songs etc etc I figure its one of the biggest barrier to understanding what the truth really is.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2013)

> 1.    Do you gorge for any reason? Please express why.


yes, it fills me up



> 2.    Is gorging for religious purposes a good or bad thing?


I thought the act of gorging was the religion..



> 3.    What does gorging mean in people’s lives?


it gives them meaning and a false sense of inner satisfaction



> 4.    Does gorging make them live in an honest manner after taking part in this ritual?


no of course not, it makes them feel full, smug and self satisfied



> 5.    Is force feeding the prisoners at Gitmo  right or wrong? Please explain your reasons.



now that Tejwantji, is a thread on its own


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2013)

Harry ji,

And you have no idea how much I appreciate it. A bit of garam masala never hurts in any kind of gorging.

About the latter one, it is a serious talk. Please go ahead and start a thread.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## angrisha (Jul 24, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> angrisha ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



I think for me I use the God, because it's an more generic reference while writing. God for me, is something I have difficulty fully describing and the meaning has constantly evolved thorough my life. God currently for me implies the universal energy which ties everything together, in it's vastness its hard to put into words... But it is the force and intelligence which everything is connected to... It is ever present and never changing.
I think that's the best articulation I can put into words right now.[/quote]


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2013)

`
angrisha ji

This part of your earlier comment was addressed to me. I will do my best in reply because it is a powerful insight into a complex set of issues.



angrisha said:


> Heres a question about relating to a religious identity, if you start associating what you do 'religiously' to a culture arent we breeding more unconsciousness? In the sense that 'turban days' might make it okay for insecurities some children have of being different (especially in areas with few punjabi ppl), but do we then start to associate the turban as a cultural tool rather than one that can be used to facilitate a connection?




To start I am not altogether certain what "connection" you mean in the last sentence. Without knowing that I can only rely on my own inference about it. The "tool" other than a "cultural tool"... what would that be? What tool that is better than Turban Day?

Leaving Turban Day aside for the moment, let me talk about the connection that I believe needs to be made for those who tie dastar and those who do not, Sikh and non-Sikh alike. Going back to the time of Guru Nanak, wearing a turban, keeping a beard and riding a horse were privileges reserved for the wealthy. Turban then symbolized affluence and status; it was itself a cultural tool for preserving consciousness of who was high and who was low in a very status conscious society. Then our Gurus uttered several of their many subversive suggestions which ultimately had the effect of undermining time-hardened adherence to caste and rank, and general kowtowing to it. 

Today the turban symbolizes, according to those who know, spirituality, humility and respect for hair. How turban comes to stand for these qualities is an open question. The Sikh Rehat Maryada requires it for men as a way to protect the hair. If anyone wants to argue that these are arbitrary meanings, poorly explained, dependent on folklore and mindless following of tradition, I won't argue. As a symbol of culture, it even endows its wearer with social respectability. At one time among Sikhs of rural Punjab, a man who kept hair but did not wear a turban was considered perhaps a bandit of some kind, a "badmash." Back then we turn the clock -- first forbidden to most, dastar creeps back into imagination a "must" for the pious Sikh.

That is not the connection that needs to be made at Turban Day, and it is not the connection that comes with turban as part of Akaal Purak ki Fauj. How many did Guru Arjan Dev shock into awareness of the emptiness of the turban when he said in the context of a shabad which questions the hypocrisy of the Qazi 

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧

੨॥
Nāpāk pāk kar haḏūr haḏīsā sābaṯ sūraṯ ḏasṯār sirā. ||12||
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||

Or 


ਹਉ ਗੋਸਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਵਾਨੜਾ ॥
Ha▫o gosā▫ī ḏā pahilvānṛā.
I am a wrestler; I belong to the Lord of the World.

॥
Mai gur mil ucẖ ḏumālṛā.
I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ਛਿੰਝ ਇਕਠੀਆ ਦਯੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੭॥
Sabẖ ho▫ī cẖẖinjẖ ikṯẖī▫ā ḏa▫yu baiṯẖā vekẖai āp jī▫o. ||17||
All have gathered to watch the wrestling match, and the Merciful Lord Himself is seated to behold it.

 "I" is everyone. Everyone can freely choose to be a wrestler; everyone can tie that tall, plumed turban. There is no high and there is no low and the turban comes to symbolize a state of mind that does not bend to illegitimate power and represents the joyous way in we ourselves  ਆਪਿ  can chose to sit with the that one who is most worthy of our respect ਜੀਉ 

OK! So now to Turban Days. If kids are being taught the dastar is a way to be humble and protect kesh, fine and good. It is not fine and good if kids are not being taught that dastar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji symbolizes the end of inequality. Everyone is invited to sit in the bleachers at the wrestling match with the Guru. If Turban Day is a cultural tool, that is a good thing too. In the US over 60 percent of all reported incidents of school-bullying are of Sikh boys who keep hair and wear the pagri. The majority of revenge assaults and homicides following 9/11 were of Sikh men mistaken for Muslims. These attacks continue. If we ask our children to live as Sikhs in a risky world then the least we can do is provide a rational reason for doing so. Akaal Purkh di Fauj (in so many words the army of the timeless god) stands behind having a choice, stands against the capriciousness of power and class, stands for connecting with the Sat because when all wear that tall, plumed turban of awareness, then all are equal. That kind of thinking is what made our Gurus subversives in the eyes of Brahmins and Qazis. Tying dastar can be an irritating but culturally important morning ritual. To the religious rebel (we forget that is who we are), tying dastar is about making the free choice to connect, be aware, have a care for social justice. 

I see no reason why a cultural tool cannot pry open a window on religious identity.

Now I have taken a lot of time thinking what to write. I would like to see others join me by writing responses to Tejwant ji's questions about fasting. If there are deep messages, what are they?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2013)

angrisha ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> I think for me I use the God, because it's an more generic reference while writing. God for me, is something I have difficulty fully describing and the meaning has constantly evolved thorough my life. *God currently for me implies the universal energy which ties everything together, in it's vastness its hard to put into words... But it is the force and intelligence which everything is connected to... It is ever present and never changing. *
> 
> 
> I think that's the best articulation I can put into words right now.



I happen to agree with you, but then looking at your posts the way you have used god in your posts seems quite misplaced. I do not happen to agree with the intelligence part though. You may have to elaborate that for me. I have posted another thread "Evolution and God" where we discuss about it.

Am I missing something? 

And as Spnadmin ji mentioned, let's also have a conversation in a deeper manner about the questions asked.

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2013)

There seems to be a lot of rhetoric. The only thing missing is substance in my opinion.

Akiva ji writes:



> Is Guru Ji's objection to fasting, or mindless, meaningless fasting?
> How can mindful, meaningful fasting be worse than mindless, meaningless Langar?
> (Specifically asking as a personal spiritual discipline, not in terms of service to others)
> 
> Akiva



What is meaningless Langar in your opinion? Is serving 70,000 meals a day at Darbar Sahib 24/7 meaningless? If yes, in what way? And how about thousands of Langars served everyday all around the world?



> Anything can lead to pride - by your standard the Turban Pride movement of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj should be forbidden as well.



What is Turban Pride movement of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj? Please explain it and why should it be banned if there is such a movement? 

What do you understand by the significance of turban as being a non-Sikh?

Lastly, what does that have to do with the topic being discussed?



> But one's true self can't truly manifest while being mastered by the body/lusts - and while one is attached to the material world.



Sikhi is based on the concept of Miri/Piri, the balancing act between the temporal and the spiritual what I call- The Gurmat Fulcrum. Hence your above comment has nothing to do with Sikhi.



> Simran/meditation can help develop control/discipline of one's physical attachments.
> So can meaningful fasting.



Please elaborate what you mean by Simran/Meditation and what is meaningful fasting?



> Everyone has to find their own way.



Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is the tool box which leads us to the ways of truthful living. 



> FWIW, limited Fasting (one day a week) has been medically documented to be beneficial to health and longevity.



Please supply us with documentation with peer review about your above claim.




> Originally Posted by spnadmin View Post
> Are there any forms of fasting that do not of themselves lead to fake humility and false pride in a false self? That question underlies Guru Nanak's objections to fasting.





> Akiva ji's response
> Of course. Religious fasting doesn't have to lead to fake humility and false pride -- that depends on the individual.



If it is religious then, the "fruit/end"  to the means of religious fasting should be the same to all the people belonging to the religion, otherwise the religion itself becomes meaningless.
It is nothing but fake humility and false pride laced with me-ism.



> It's a tool.



What kind of tool? What is the purpose of this tool? Does this kind of fasting feed the hungry or chip in the society in any other manner or is it just self serving exercise?



> but fake humility and false pride can sneak into any action -- that doesn't in itself invalidate the action.



Agreed but we are talking about religious fasting. Let's stick to the topic.



> Anyone fasting just because it's expected socially/religiously is not being meaningful.



Well, sorry to disappoint you, but that is the whole idea behind socially/religiously fasting.



> Someone fasting with a specific reason/goal -- and aware of that reason.
> (I'm using "aware" in the"spiritual" usage -- more than just "knowing" -- it implies a deeper integrated knowing.)



Please explain the specific reason and goal----and aware of that reason from the religious/spiritual point of view.



> As such there has to be a "honesty" about the reason for fasting.



Can you please elaborate it? What kind of "honesty" about the reason of fasting one requires?



> For some fasting is a way of mortifying the flesh;



What good does this bring to one or to others? After all any religion is supposed to help others.



> for some a way of sharing, if just for a short while, the hunger of those without in order to increase their sensitivity to the other's plight; for some it's a discipline -- to train the body to eat when the mind chooses to eat, not when desire wants to. To realize that food is not a "given"



What is the end objective/goal of the above? How can keeping yourself hungry for a day or two is able to fill the tummies that have been empty for a long time?



> And the fact is that fasting does change one's state of consciousness -- due in part to the lower blood sugar and fluid levels -- enabling the person fasting to think/perceive in a different way.



Please supply with some documentation as far as the original weight, blood sugar level and other data to back your claim.



> if one learns/grows from it then it's meaningful. if it's an empty ritual then it's not.



What is there to learn or grow in it? Or is it mere a rhetorical statement if not backed by some facts?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## angrisha (Jul 25, 2013)

SPN Admin:


Thank you for your thoughtful post, just for clarification I wasn't specifically looking into the turban days but more so the idea behind it. 



> I see no reason why a cultural tool cannot pry open a window on religious identity


.


I do agree with this statement, but when I take it into the context of fasting like we have been discussing. Some people may simply fast as to be included into a cultural group, and to have that acceptance of community. So, in this sense the fasting which may be seen is as a cultural tool, will become more of an egoic idea to be attached to the group. 

I think the whole thing of fasting boils down too necessity, in terms of is it something that is necessary to aid in spiritual enlightenment? Does it help us reduce our ego? The truth is, there are many different paths which can facilitate someone to grow religiously or spiritually. We can look at vegetarianism as fast, in the sense that you are consciously choosing not to eat something. 

There are Buddhist traditions which focus on diet and how it facilitates connections to either our body or our spiritual self. Some, Buddhists believe that vegetarian diets allows one to be lighter and facilitates growth on the spiritual side, while as adding meat to your died aids the body and maintains a more of a world connection with those around us. There are monks, who subsist only on what is given to them in their begging bowl. 

Whatever one partakes in, if you can be clear with your intention as to why your choosing to do it then it can be very beneficial. 



Tejwant Singh Ji:

I will find my way over to the thread that you suggested, and I will try to articulate myself better if my writing has lead to any confusion. But, I can assure you that at this moment that is my intention in using the word 'God' in posts. I can see how in writing it might not be conveyed in such a manner... but I think its the context in which I am expressing it. I will be more mindful, in the future thanks.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2013)

angrisha ji

Thank you in turn for your thoughtful post too! The clarification was very helpful. I will not know if fasting can be or is more than a "cultural tool" that brings spiritual awareness and enlightenment unless someone explains how that works. I need more than a statement that is does, and so far I have not read how it does that.

In interests of being completely honest about my own perspective on fasting I will say this. There are many occasions when brief fasting contributes to my feeling of well-being. Not complete abstinence, but abstinence from certain kinds of food. Abstinence from fried foods, salty foods would be examples of foods that over time make me feel not well. On the religious and spiritual side I have yet to see where the benefits of fasting lie. By now we have all seen the sad picture of children wasting from famine. That reality makes my heart and spirit sick. If I fast I have done nothing that helps them. Fasting only adds that many more hungry people to the pot, and only those who are starving from no choice of their own are experiencing the hard facts of hunger. If I really want spiritual growth then feeding the hungry is the only choice I can make. Fasting too feed the spirit on my end is a delusion.

An open mind is a good thing. Let's hear how fasting contributes to spiritual well-being. How does that work?  So far all one hears is that it does. Maybe some one will explain the process to me and I will be convince.


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## akiva (Jul 25, 2013)

spnadmin Ji

Someone who has never been hungry can not relate personally with those who are. (In the same way that a white person, no matter how much they think they understand the plight of minorities, can not really know what it means to be a minority in a white society)

Intellectually, yes. Even feel, to one degree (i.e. "those poor children") -- but even that is based on an intellectual "imagining" of what it must be like. Not on personal experience.

The fasting gives us a small taste of what it's like to be hungry, day in and day out -- and that makes it easier for us to relate to them. And the more we can relate to them the more we will want to help them.

For most of us in the west, feeding the hungry is more an attempt to remove guilt.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2013)

akiva said:


> spnadmin Ji
> 
> The fasting gives us a small taste of what it's like to be hungry, day in and day out -- and that makes it easier for us to relate to them. And the more we can relate to them the more we will want to help them.
> 
> For most of us in the west, feeding the hungry is more an attempt to remove guilt.



akiva ji

1. Even if I or anyone else has a "small taste of what it is like to be hungry" sitting around relating to those who are really hungry is happening only in my mind. How does it alleviate starvation?

2. Even if most in the west feed the hungry to remove guilt, the hungry have been fed.

Maybe guilt is a motivator, if not the best motivator. Maybe if there were more guilt, there would be less starvation. 

There is another reality in addition to pure altruism and mundane guilt to explain starvation. Many in the west feel neither guilt nor the urge to take action ... they blame the victim. Here the thinking is like so. If you are starving stay out of my sight, don't show up on my TV screen, don't send your NRO's to my door bothering me for contributions. You would not be in this predicament if you had played your cards right. Don't try to make me feel guilty. Such is your destiny. 

Would those children advise that I fast  or meditate on my guilt --- or contribute my time, energy and money?


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## angrisha (Jul 25, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> angrisha ji
> 
> Thank you in turn for your thoughtful post too! The clarification was very helpful. I will not know if fasting can be or is more than a "cultural tool" that brings spiritual awareness and enlightenment unless someone explains how that works. I need more than a statement that is does, and so far I have not read how it does that.
> 
> ...



SPNADMIN, 

Personally I dont believe in fasting either, so this is just theory and speculation not based on any real application on my part.

However, when you equate famine to fasting it is a misconception. When someone is suffering from hunger due to a lack of resources, it is not by choice but by your life situation. Meaning, it is beyond your control why there is in-accessibility to nourishment. Fasting on the other hand is a choice that someone makes. Meaning, it is not a situation that one is forced into, its a situation that one chooses to place themselves in. 

The idea when I think of fasting is such that, you consciously choose to limit something. There are many types of fasts, not all of them deprive you of total nourishment. Fasting then can be a tool to show you that when you consciously choose to do something, with an intention and a commitment that it is possible (if not difficult).. it can give you a sense of accomplishment at the end, that you are capable of something which seems very hard... it allows you to translate that confidence into other areas of your life

If you can take that physical act and translate into your practice of reducing your ego. For example, grievances we have on a day to day basis... if you take a day and really pay attention to how many times you might feel upset, even slightly it can be amazing (i.e. someone cuts you off in traffic, the cashier is moving to slow etc). If you can phyiscally be comitted to eating only 2 meals a day at certian times then maybe you can train your mind in the same way to start to let some of these basic things that keep us traped in ego go as well... the later requires even more awarness than phyiscally abstaining from food. So thus, maybe fasting can be that tool to open that door?

Again, this is speculation....


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## akiva (Jul 25, 2013)

spnadmin ji

someone who is already motivated to feed the poor is *not* the person we are talking about.

We're talking about the person who isn't.

The following story might help:

In a town lived a very rich miser. Every time the local rabbi came to his door to collect funds for the poor, the miser would invite the rabbi in, offer the rabbi a glass of tea and talk about his business. When the rabbi started talking about the plight of the poor people in winter, the miser would brush him off and tell him that poor people like to complain--it wasn't all as bad as the rabbi thought. In any case, he had no cash in the house at the moment, and couldn't give anything right now. Could the rabbi come back another time? The miser would then escort the rabbi to the door, go back to his warm and comfortable room and settle down in his favorite chair near the fireplace, very pleased with himself.

But the rabbi was not pleased. The poor had no money for food or for wood for their stoves and they were cold and hungry.

One evening, the rabbi knocked on the rich miser's door. It was a cold and miserable night, snow and sleet blew through the deserted streets. The miser asked the rabbi in, as usual. But the rabbi refused. "'No," he said, "I won't be long." And then he inquired after the miser's health, and after the health of his family, and asked him about his business, and spoke about affairs of the community for a long time. The miser could not send the rabbi away, of course; he had opened the door for him himself. But he was getting quite uncomfortable. He had come to the door in his slippers and skullcap, dressed in a thin shirt and his house pants. The rabbi, wearing a warm coat with a fur lining, his biggest shtraymel covering his ears and heavy winter boots encasing his feet and legs, talked on and on. No, he didn't want to come in. No, really, he was on his way. The miser's toes became ice and stone.

Suddenly the miser understood. "Oh, Rabbi!" he cried. "Those poor people with no warm clothes or firewood for winter... I never knew. I never imagined it could be like this. This is miserable. It is horrible. I never knew, honestly! Something must be done!" He went into the house and returned with a purse full of gold coins. He wanted to go back to his fireplace as soon as he could. He needed hot tea. The rabbi thanked him and took the money. He, too, was cold after that long talk, but he didn't mind. The poor people would have a good winter this year.

The miser changed his ways that night. He became a regular contributor to the rabbi's funds for the poor, for poor brides, for poor students, for Passover money and for many other causes. He had learned a good lesson that night.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2013)

It is sad to notice some more rhetoric without substance from Akiva ji.

What a shame and a total waste of time rather than discussing the real subject how fasting can help people spiritually and how it can feed the hungry.

The worst is that he can not even back up his own claims and when questioned about his false claims about unmeaningful langars, he keeps mum as usual when challenged.

No matter what religion or no religion one belongs to, false claims about others' way of life show dishonesty in the one, to put it mildly. 

One does not need a religion to live a truthful living, just honesty would suffice.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2013)

angrisha said:


> SPNADMIN,
> 
> Personally I dont believe in fasting either, so this is just theory and speculation not based on any real application on my part.
> 
> ...



angrisha ji

I so agree with you. I am still waiting for someone to explain the process, the route from a to z, that describes how fasting contributes to greater spiritual awareness. How does it work?

Although you begin and end by stating that you are speculating, you have come closer than anyone here or anywhere else in my experience. 

I must however add that there are many things that are hard to do, other than fasting, and that can be chosen freely, that would end up with a reduction in selfishness and ego, and a greater sense of being an ethical self. 

Hypocrisy abounds in telling others to use their personal suffering to understand the suffering of others, in order to be a more compassionate person. I do not read that in your comments.

Later I will tell my own story of prolonged food deprivation and its complete lack of a spiritual result. All it led to was misery.

 Will hold off on that for the time being.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2013)

> I so agree with you. I am still waiting for someone to explain the  process, the route from a to z, that describes how fasting contributes  to greater spiritual awareness. How does it work?



Anything that messes with the chemical balance of the body, be it drug induced, sleep deprivation, asphyxiation, results in the discussion and contemplation of much rubbish.The wow moments are all induced, and instead of pointing towards enlightenment, merely laud the most pointless and mundane of concepts, although at the time they seem unique insights into life. However, amazing the idea may seem at the time, the sad fact is that mouse wheel power technology for pc's is not the brilliant idea it may have seemed at the time,


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## akiva (Jul 25, 2013)

spnadmon ji



spnadmin said:


> Hypocrisy abounds in telling others to use their personal suffering to understand the suffering of others, in order to be a more compassionate person.



How is it hypocrisy? IT would only be hypocritical if the person saying it doesn't do it him/herself...


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2013)

angrisha ji,

Guru fateh,

Please allow me to barge in.



> SPNADMIN,
> Personally I dont believe in fasting either, so this is just theory and speculation not based on any real application on my part.



I am glad you do not. Guru Nanak does not believe it in either, SGGS, is my only tool box that I use to tighten my lossened bolts.



> However, when you equate famine to fasting it is a misconception. When someone is suffering from hunger due to a lack of resources, it is not by choice but by your life situation. Meaning, it is beyond your control why there is in-accessibility to nourishment. Fasting on the other hand is a choice that someone makes. Meaning, it is not a situation that one is forced into, its a situation that one chooses to place themselves in.



I beg to differ with you in a way. No one is equating it but linking it. What good is one’s fasting in any manner if it cannot help the one with an empty tummy? And I am just talking about one who could be next door or on lying in a fetal position on the next corner. What kind of sensible choice it is one should ask oneself then if one chooses not to eat but leave the hungry even hungrier? Why would one put one is this situation if it not for me-ism?



> The idea when I think of fasting is such that, you consciously choose to limit something. There are many types of fasts, not all of them deprive you of total nourishment. Fasting then can be a tool to show you that when you consciously choose to do something, with an intention and a commitment that it is possible (if not difficult).. it can give you a sense of accomplishment at the end, that you are capable of something which seems very hard... it allows you to translate that confidence into other areas of your life. If you can take that physical act and translate into your practice of reducing your ego. For example, grievances we have on a day to day basis... if you take a day and really pay attention to how many times you might feel upset, even slightly it can be amazing (i.e. someone cuts you off in traffic, the cashier is moving to slow etc).



So, in the above, it seems you are not talking about fasting as far as refusing to take food is concerned. Please correct me if I am wrong. The way I understand is that not drinking and driving is kind of fasting. Not getting angry is another kind. Rather than buying a hamburger when you are not even hungry but offering it to someone else who needs it. Not putting off “Honey do’s” etc. etc. Am I getting it right here?



> If you can phyiscally be comitted to eating only 2 meals a day at certian times then maybe you can train your mind in the same way to start to let some of these basic things that keep us traped in ego go as well... the later requires even more awarness than phyiscally abstaining from food. So thus, maybe fasting can be that tool to open that door?



Well, let me be honest with you, I have been eating only 2 meals for many years now because night meals left me sleepless. No, in reality it was not abstaining per se but just for the sake of good zeees and I do not consider this a fasting of any kind. Now, I do not even feel hungry so I am not fasting in any sense of the word. Two meals are sufficed for me to function normally. This is not a deprivation exercise nor any conscious effort to be mindful about.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2013)

akiva said:


> spnadmon ji
> 
> 
> 
> How is it hypocrisy? IT would only be hypocritical if the person saying it doesn't do it him/herself...



akiva ji

I will explain my point of view on this later. It is valid question and one that I would like to answer.

added later: There is going to be a delay on this and the other comment I promised because there have been some demands on my time tonight. Will get back to you.


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Tejwant Ji



Tejwant Singh said:


> It is sad to notice some more rhetoric without substance from Akiva ji.
> 
> What a shame and a total waste of time rather than discussing the real subject how fasting can help people spiritually and how it can feed the hungry.
> 
> ...



Are you accusing me of being dishonest? If so, then we have nothing to discuss. I have been nothing but respectful to you -- I expect the same in return.

Furthermore -- your comments show you haven't read and understood what I wrote -- please read my posts *again* without looking for something to argue about.

Akiva


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

akiva said:


> Tejwant Ji
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

One can see you have the habit of underestimating others' views. Commonsense would dictate that I have dissected each of your claims that your posts showed and asked you some questions which you seem reluctant to answer for the reasons known to yourself. 

Does that show that I have not read your posts? You are funny to say the least. 

You should learn to read the posts yourself.  I challenged you about your false claims about the langars being meaningless  and I asked you about the 70,000 langars served at Darbar Sahib along with many other questions but you kept mum. I  am respectful to everyone. My posts show that.

We are here to discuss things, interact and learn from each other and the false claims from either should be called out which is the most respectful thing to do because we are here as truthseekers.

False, unfounded claims about somethings  do not make one a dishonest character. Ignorance plays part in them and some are not ready to admit the latter much less learn from them.

Now show your bravura as you have shown in your post above and respond to my questions in an honest manner. If you do not understand things about Sikhi, then please do not hesitate to ask and lastly, let's stick to the topic and the questions of the thread. If you wish you may respond them  with solid evidence as requested by me about your claims many of which are blatantly false that require some solid data to back them up, not mere rhetoric.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

I never said langars are meaningless. Look at what I ACTUALLY wrote (and see spnadmin's reply to my comment -- which you didn't comment on, for some reason).


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

akiva said:


> I never said langars are meaningless. Look at what I ACTUALLY wrote (and see spnadmin's reply to my comment -- which you didn't comment on, for some reason).



Yes you did and I pointed that out in my earlier post. My questions were based on this very post which you failed to comment on when asked. Here are you own words.



> Akiva ji says:
> 
> Is Guru Ji's objection to fasting, or mindless, meaningless fasting?
> 
> ...



Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Tejwant Ji

1) I never said all Langar is meaningless -- I was talking about the *person* giving langar -- and their motivation.

2) Turban Pride movement: see http://apkf.net/turbanpridemovement-new.html

3) A poster objected to fasting because it leads to pride. I pointed out that by that standard -- that things leading to pride are bad -- then Turban Pride Day should be rejected as well.

4) Sri Guru Ganth Sahib Ji is the "toolbox" *for Sikhs*.  Unless you hold that Sikhi is the only valid path for everyone, and every other religion is wrong for everyone, sikh and non-sikh?

5) You know what Simran is.

6) My usage of "meaningful" is a very zen-based usage -- along with "mindful". It relates to the motives and awareness of the person. Doing an act with intention and meaning as opposed to doing it without any intention or awareness.

7) Miri/Piri requires a balance -- if either side is too strong/in control that balance is lost. There are many ways to achieve that balance. For some people fasting is one of those ways. (We're talking non-sikhs -- since you started this thread by bringing non-sikh fasting practices I assume that it's acceptable to continue discussing non-sikh practices here)

8) Re benefits of fasting -- 30 seconds on google will find you all the sources you need.

9) Religion means different things to different members of that religion -- and they practice it differently and experience it differently.

10) It's very easy (and borders on arrogance) to accuse people you don't know of false pride and fake humility and me-ism -- without knowing their motives. 

11) fasting and feeding the hungry are two different things. No one claims that fasting somehow feeds the hungry -- the only connection (possibly) is that fasting can lead to greater sensitivity and spiritual awareness -- and such a person will be more motivated to feed the hungry. (Or protest against injustice/help the homeless/etc)

Akiva



Tejwant Singh said:


> There seems to be a lot of rhetoric. The only thing missing is substance in my opinion.
> 
> Akiva ji writes:
> 
> ...


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Tejwant Ji



Tejwant Singh said:


> Yes you did and I pointed that out in my earlier post. My questions were based on this very post which you failed to comment on when asked. Here are you own words.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh



You misunderstood what I wrote. I did not claim all langar is mindless/meaningless.

LIke spnadmin noted, the act of giving langar can be mindful or mindless -- the motive can be to feed others or to impress others.

(I specified in my original post that I was talking about the spiritual practice -- and the person -- not the act itself)

the key phrase:

*(Specifically asking as a personal spiritual discipline, not in terms of service to others)*

In both cases people are fed -- but one case there can be spiritual growth, in the other not.

Akiva


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all let's be open and honest in our interaction. Let's not try to twist things later on when the original posts show the things themselves.



> 1) I never said all Langar is meaningless -- I was talking about the *person* giving langar -- and their motivation.



Which person in you opinion is giving langar to 70,000 people in Darbar Sahib or any other Gurdwaras around the world? Can you name any? You can not because it is a community service, the part you fail to grasp. Many people donate money for it, many do seva in the kitchen and langar halls. Hence your claim is totally false and meaningless and rather insulting to the practice that demonstrates equality  among all, irrespective of their hue, creed or faith. Your being an Ex Catholic,as you claimed in one of your earlier posts should know better that a non Catholic or even a divorced Catholic is not even allowed a communion. 



> 2) Turban Pride movement: see http://apkf.net/turbanpridemovement-new.html



What is that to do with the thread? And I asked you if you understood the meaning of Turban for a Sikh. Mixing apples and oranges is totally irrelevant to the thread and you know that. One wonders who is trying to argue here!



> 3) A poster objected to fasting because it leads to pride. I pointed out that by that standard -- that things leading to pride are bad -- then Turban Pride Day should be rejected as well.



First, Guru Nanak objects to any kind of  religious fasting. For a Sikh all kinds of religious fasting is meaningless no matter what the intent of a person  may be and he proved that why. And again what does wearing a turban a Sikh's crown which was borne out of defiance has to do with fasting? How does one make the connection unless one wants to start a meaningless argument.



> 4) Sri Guru Ganth Sahib Ji is the "toolbox" *for Sikhs*.  Unless you hold that Sikhi is the only valid path for everyone, and every other religion is wrong for everyone, sikh and non-sikh?



This shows how little you know about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the word Sikh. Please try to learn about them and then if you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask. I never said Sikhi is the only way,neither does the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I wish you knew that. For Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, everyone is a Sikh, a learner, a student, a seeker unless one refuses to learn.

Are you trying to imply that truthful living is not meaningful for all humankind?Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says it is and that it what I said in my post. 



> 5) You know what Simran is.



Some terms have a different meaning for some. I asked you a question. What do you understand by Simran. It may differ from what I understand. So, if you do not want to answer, it is OK with me but please do not imply that I can read your mind.



> 6) My usage of "meaningful" is a very zen-based usage -- along with "mindful". It relates to the motives and awareness of the person. Doing an act with intention and meaning as opposed to doing it without any intention or awareness.



This is the exactly what I meant in #5, the part you ignored. Here you are telling me what you understand by the usage of the words "meaningful" and "mindful". Why would that be different for #5?

Having said that, there is nothing zen about these two words for me. They are self explanatory in any usage. So what you said is what they mean in the real sense of the words. Hence, meaniningless langar means what you said above in your zen manner. Langar is the end product that is being served to feed the hungry as part of the seva by many not by just one as you mentioned above.  It is served, not thrown at people. Being mindful, and meaningful is only an individual endeavour whereas Langar is a collective one where many partake. Fasting is an individual endeavour unlike Langar.



> 7) Miri/Piri requires a balance -- if either side is too strong/in control that balance is lost. There are many ways to achieve that balance. For some people fasting is one of those ways. (We're talking non-sikhs -- since you started this thread by bringing non-sikh fasting practices I assume that it's acceptable to continue discussing non-sikh practices here)



Your above claim shows that it is you who have not read what I wrote. 



> You said:
> 
> Quote:
> But one's true self can't truly manifest while being mastered by the body/lusts - and while one is attached to the material world.



I responded:
Sikhi is based on the concept of Miri/Piri, the balancing act between the temporal and the spiritual what I call- The Gurmat Fulcrum. Hence your above comment has nothing to do with Sikhi.

Allow me to put in a different way. Are you implying that your parents were not true to themselves when they sowed the seed to conceive you with the help of two bodies and their lust?

The balancing act between the temporal and spiritual is for all to balance whether one is a Sikh or not if one wants to pitch in the society one lives in a fruitful manner. And yes, I am questioning the practices of fasting as a balancing act. You have not given me any solid reason but just feelings.



> 8) Re benefits of fasting -- 30 seconds on google will find you all the sources you need.



So, you mean Google is your encyclopedia? If it is, please share what you claim to have found as asked earlier.



> 9) Religion means different things to different members of that religion -- and they practice it differently and experience it differently.



I beg to differ. One religion means the same to all, otherwise one would not adhere to that particular religion. It has its own laws for everyone to follow.



> 10) It's very easy (and borders on arrogance) to accuse people you don't know of false pride and fake humility and me-ism -- without knowing their motives.



Here we go again. You love to distort what has been said and then one wonders who is being arrogant here!

This is what I said:

If it is religious then, the "fruit/end" to the means of religious fasting should be the same to all the people belonging to the religion, otherwise the religion itself becomes meaningless.
It is nothing but fake humility and false pride laced with me-ism.

Please do not pick and choose some words from the whole thought expressed. Be mindful and meaningful in your Zen way to give yourself a chance to grasp the whole meaning. I wonder why you missed the beginning of the statement which starts with "If"



> 11) fasting and feeding the hungry are two different things. No one claims that fasting somehow feeds the hungry -- the only connection (possibly) is that fasting can lead to greater sensitivity and spiritual awareness -- and such a person will be more motivated to feed the hungry. (Or protest against injustice/help the homeless/etc)



Still no solid proof of the latter as requested by Spnadmin ji and myself. It is just rhetoric. Any data to back your claim as asked before?

Good interaction. I thank you for that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

akiva said:


> Tejwant Ji
> 
> You misunderstood what I wrote. I did not claim all langar is mindless/meaningless.
> 
> ...



Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please see my detailed answer in the other post. I understood you very well. You did not use "NOT ALL LANGARS" in your original post unlike here and I explained you it is not an individual endeavour as fasting is, hence no connection, just argumentative.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Tejwant Ji

spnadmin wrote:

And of course we can delude ourselves in langar and in Turban Day. *Langar practices in recent times have been similarly criticized when they are shows of personal wealth and keeping up with the 'jones'es' which can be the case in congregations that have rotating langar seva*. But your question goes off the topic of fasting and puts focus onto the mindless and meaningless aspect of any and many an activity in which we take pride. It is like changing the subject line on an email message from "Fasting" to "Pride and the False Self.

There was no request from spnadmin to bring evidence -- in fact, spnadmin ji brought the negative trend in recent times.

Akiva


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

akiva said:


> Tejwant Ji
> 
> spnadmin wrote:
> 
> ...



Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea why we are running in circles here. It will also help you to read the whole post, especially the lines you did not highlight.

Here is what Spnadmin ji said in another post. It seems you missed it.



> An open mind is a good thing. Let's hear how fasting contributes to spiritual well-being. How does that work? So far all one hears is that it does. Maybe some one will explain the process to me and I will be convince.



http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/188313-post26.html

But that is not even the point. Spnadmin ji and I may differ/disagree in many ways about the same thing. This is the beauty of Sikhi. A Sikh learns,unlearns and relearns daily.

The interaction is between yourself and myself and both of us know the subject we are talking about.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Tejwant Ji

Let's start over (to avoid the off-topic subjects)

We both agree that Guru Nanak Ji was opposed to mindless/meaningless religious fasting

It's understood in Sikhi that Guru Nanak Ji also was opposed to mindful/meaningful religious fasting. (My original question was on that point - I've seen the question raised elsewhere that Guru Ji's objection was only to mindless/ritualistic fasting, and asked about that)

We agree that Sikhi is *A* religious path.

Do we agree that other religious paths and practices are valid *for their followers*?

Regards
Akiva


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## spnadmin (Jul 26, 2013)

Did Guru Nanak oppose fasting – emphasis on the word oppose? When I think back to the shabads that speak of fasting, written by Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev and the bhagats, I get a different impression. Guru Nanak is speaking to sadhus and devotees and asking them to reconsider fasting. Is fasting a path to spiritual awareness. More so, is it a path to finding the jyote that will enable us to change our moral stance toward humankind and all of creation? This moral question pervades Gurbani.

Guru Nanak was open-minded; he poses problems and asks questions. He rarely opposes. He considers and reconsiders many spiritual practices. He invites us to do the same.

Hypocrisy: One definition describes hypocrisy as the practice of  claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one does not in reality conform. That is the narrow meaning of the word. The sadhus and devotees practiced what they preached. They preached the spiritual benefits of fasting and they fasted. Surely Guru Nanak noted that. Guru Nanak takes the larger meaning of hypocrisy to be moral pretense or pretentiousness. He questions whether in fasting any change moral stance occurs. Has fasting changed the actions of the sadhus and devotees toward fellow humans? Or are their sadhanas full of pretense, chasing after a jyote that will always elude them when concern for their own spiritual development is not coupled with concern for those around them? Could that be the message for us when we reconsider the meaning of fasting?

To me talk of Guru Nanak's opposing fasting, mindful or meaningless fasting, mindful or mindless people who fast, and whether Sikhi is only A path – all red herrings. The thread question puts out a moral question too! In so many words, do we fast as a matter of ego, or is a greater good served?


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

spnadmin Ji

If I become a better, more aware and caring person (through whatever means) then the greater good is served. 

Not directly, but indirectly.

There is a saying: Give a man a fish, and he eats today. TEACH a man to fish and he eats every day.

I think that's relevant here.

For example, Bono or Bill Gates could just give someone food, today -- and that person will still need food tomorrow. Instead, they focus their energy and efforts on improving health care, education, distribution of resources -- with the goal of improving the quality of living to a point were that person doesn't need handouts because they can support themselves.

INitially it looks like the person giving food is doing more -- but in the long run the person working to improve society helps more people.


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## spnadmin (Jul 26, 2013)

akiva said:


> spnadmin Ji
> 
> If I become a better, more aware and caring person (through whatever means) then the greater good is served.
> 
> ...



If you can say that from the heart then you are blessed. For me it is internet banter. 

By what spiritual processes does one get from fasting to the greater good? I won't elaborate at this point because earlier I did explain my frustration at length. How are we blessed? What good comes from the penance? Are we deluding ourselves? Is it egotism to think that by fasting some greater good is served because we feel better in our innards?

Guru Nanak does not state that fasting serves a greater good if only we be mindful of why we fast. Guru Nanak is asking why do it at all? Reconsider!!! Question !!! Re-evaluate !!! this ancient tradition of depriving yourself to serve the interests of personal spiritual awareness. What good is it if you feel better about yourself, and thousands are suffering from hunger around you?


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

I don't think that there's a direct "fasting serves the greater good" -- I think it's more "Fasting makes me a better person -- and my being a better person serves the greater good"

"Fasting" can be replaced by many other actions -- meditation, prayer, etc.

The key factor is that it make you a better person.


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> In so many words, do we fast as a matter of ego, or is a greater good served?



There's no one answer -- each person has to look inside, honestly challenge their motives, and decide for themselves.

Just to clarify my *personal* position: I don't fast anymore. (I have in the past -- over the decades I've fasted within several different religious systems, so I'm familiar with their methods and goals.)


Akiva


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## spnadmin (Jul 26, 2013)

akiva said:


> I don't think that there's a direct "fasting serves the greater good" -- I think it's more "Fasting makes me a better person -- and my being a better person serves the greater good"
> 
> "Fasting" can be replaced by many other actions -- meditation, prayer, etc.
> 
> The key factor is that it make you a better person.



Is that true for you? Or do you see that as a general proposition, true for most? Is it something you would recommend to others thinking they too would become better people if they fast?

Are religions that espouse fasting operating on the same principle: You will be a better person for it and directly or indirectly you will serve the greater good?

 Discussions of meditation, prayer, etc. are off topic and will be deleted:whatzpointkudi:


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Personally? I found Ramadan fasting interesting in that I was definitely in a calmer, more peaceful and aware state of consciousness during the second half of the month. (That's because it's more a lifestyle pattern shift, which psychologically breaks old patterns of behaviour. That's usually good for people to do occasionally)

Most short term fasts are too short term to make any change in behaviour or awareness - quite often their intention is either "penance" or "motivation"

The Native American multi-day fast is intended to cause extreme shifts in consciousness (hallucinations, etc)-- possibly useful for some.

Do I think Fasting makes you a better person? I've met people for whom it is true -- that their fasting made them better people -- but I don't think it's a universal truth.

That's why I said the person has to take a honest look at themselves. 

(I'll answer the second part later)


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## akiva (Jul 26, 2013)

Religions espouse fasting either for self-discipline, self-purification, or individual or communal atonement.

Different religions make different connections re fasting and others -- for example, there is a direct call to think about and feed the hungry and poor during Ramadan. That's a direct connection. (Plus the fact that 1/3 of the sacrifice at the end of Ramadan should be given to the poor)

But does it really change the person? will they remember the ramadan lesson 6 months later? Most won't. A few will. There's no way of knowing who those few will be. So the idea is everyone does it -- 99% fall back to old behaviours -- but that 1% that grows is the important thing.

Likewise in other religions. They usually acknowledge that most people don't gain by fasting -- but a few do. And since there's no way of knowing who will grow -- and when -- they teach it for everyone.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2013)

one could also say

Likewise in other religions. They usually acknowledge that most people  don't gain by selfish pointless ritual  -- but a few do. And since there's no way of  knowing who will grow -- and when -- they teach it for everyone.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Let's start over (to avoid the off-topic subjects)



I am in total agreement with you.



> We both agree that Guru Nanak Ji was opposed to mindless/meaningless religious fasting



Guru Nanak was against religious fasting because he saw them as mindless/meaningless. For him it was a practice of Me-ism, nothing to do with the One that we all seek.



> It's understood in Sikhi that Guru Nanak Ji also was opposed to mindful/meaningful religious fasting. (My original question was on that point - I've seen the question raised elsewhere that Guru Ji's objection was only to mindless/ritualistic fasting, and asked about that)



If Guru Nanak had thought fasting was mindful/meaningful, he would have said so, but he did say to the contrary instead. So, pardon my ignorance, I have no idea what you are trying to say by this post.



> We agree that Sikhi is *A* religious path.



No we do not, because Sikhi is not a religion which requires a deity,dogmas, clergy who dictates do's and don'ts to the followers and  force them into meaningless rituals like Hajj, fasting, bathing in holy waters, pilgrimages and many more things. Sikhi has neither of them. 

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of verses about it. Please read and watch "Why Religion?", posted here which was part of the Interfaith forums. You will get a better idea why Sikhi is not a religion, nor a belief system or a faith. All these 3 require blind faith where Sikhi helps people open their eyes to the stark reality. There is no Hell or Heaven, No Adam and Eve. Sikh doctors recommend eating an apple a day to keep oneself healthy which is known as the forbidden fruit in the Abrahamic religions. One can go on and on.



> Do we agree that other religious paths and practices are valid *for their followers*?


 
I am afraid I do not. It is for the followers of the respective religions to decide and they should be ready for the challenges when others can prove that these paths and practices lead to naught except to me-ism. Like throwing water to the Sun and many other things.

In fact I posted a Shabad here from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji not too long ago, which shows a Muslim how to be a true Muslim with the help of good deeds rather than performing meaningless rituals daily.

Sikhi is a pragmatic way of life. Gurbani shows us why these rituals are meaningless with reasoning not with mere feelings because someone thinks so.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

Akiva Ji,

Guru Fateh.


> akiva;188394]Personally? I found Ramadan fasting interesting in that I was definitely in a calmer, more peaceful and aware state of consciousness during the second half of the month. (That's because it's more a lifestyle pattern shift, which psychologically breaks old patterns of behaviour. That's usually good for people to do occasionally)



*A population based study of Ramadan fasting and acute coronary syndromes.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768280/

Here is one more for you.

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/11/1/69

The fact is that Muslims with diabetes and other ailments have lots of problems during Ramadam fasting, the one you claim to prefer. So I have no idea what is mindful and meaningful about it.



> Most short term fasts are too short term to make any change in behaviour or awareness - quite often their intention is either "penance" or "motivation"



How can it be either, the two opposite poles? Please elaborate because it makes no sense to me.



> The Native American multi-day fast is intended to cause extreme shifts in consciousness (hallucinations, etc)-- possibly useful for some.



Akiva ji, it seems you gauge the so called facts with your gut feelings rather than the facts. Here are some facts about the above. It is not useful but deadly for some.

*Angel Valley Resort Sweat Lodge Incident: 2 Die, 19 Overcome At Arizona Retreat*

*Sweat lodges, like that held on the final day of the Angel Valley retreat, are commonly used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events. The structure used Thursday was crudely built and covered with tarps and blankets.*

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/09/angel-valley-resort-sweat_n_316137.html



> Do I think Fasting makes you a better person? I've met people for whom it is true -- that their fasting made them better people -- but I don't think it's a universal truth.



What was your gauging instrument for your above claim?



> That's why I said the person has to take a honest look at themselves.



Again what gauging instrument did you use to check his/her honesty?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2013)

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> akiva;188395]Religions *espouse* fasting either for self-discipline, self-purification, or individual or communal atonement.



Espouse is the most important word. The verb espouse is used to describe the actions of someone who lives according to specific beliefs. It also means to marry  in thick and thin- benefits or shortfalls.



> Different religions make different connections re fasting and others -- for example, there is a direct call to think about and feed the hungry and poor during Ramadan. That's a direct connection. (Plus the fact that 1/3 of the sacrifice at the end of Ramadan should be given to the poor)



It is a wonderful gesture if it is true.Please post any story preferably with a video to prove your claim. There are one billion Muslims in the world. 1/3 of the food from them can feed all of Africa for a month because the fasting Muslims over eat during Ramadan. How many Muslim refugees are being fed in this month by their Muslim brethren?



> But does it really change the person? will they remember the ramadan lesson 6 months later? Most won't. A few will. There's no way of knowing who those few will be. So the idea is everyone does it -- 99% fall back to old behaviours -- but that 1% that grows is the important thing.



Do you have anything to back your claim with?



> Likewise in other religions. They usually acknowledge that most people don't gain by fasting -- but a few do. And since there's no way of knowing who will grow -- and when -- they teach it for everyone.



Again please provide concrete proofs about the claim above.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## findingmyway (Jul 27, 2013)

This is such a fascinating topic!



akiva said:


> I don't think that there's a direct "fasting serves the greater good" -- I think it's more "Fasting makes me a better person -- and my being a better person serves the greater good".





> The fasting gives us a small taste of what it's like to be hungry, day  in and day out -- and that makes it easier for us to relate to them. And  the more we can relate to them the more we will want to help them.



The concepts here are great in theory but don't bear out in practice. I would love to see statitics that prove me wrong, i.e. people that fast give more to charity (money and time), but this doesn't happen. Even people carrying out a sponsored fast are no more likely to sustain that behaviour once the fast is over and sponsor money collected.




akiva said:


> Personally? I found Ramadan fasting interesting in  that I was definitely in a calmer, more peaceful and aware state of  consciousness during the second half of the month. (That's because it's  more a lifestyle pattern shift, which psychologically breaks old  patterns of behaviour. That's usually good for people to do  occasionally)



Then why not continue if it had such a positive impact? This shows the transitory nature of the effects.



akiva said:


> spnadmin Ji
> 
> If I become a better, more aware and caring person (through whatever means) then the greater good is served.
> 
> ...



How is this relevant? Are people who fast more likely to feed, do community work or do nothing? I don't think there is any relationship in reality.



> Likewise in other religions. They usually acknowledge that most people  don't gain by fasting -- but a few do. And since there's no way of  knowing who will grow -- and when -- they teach it for everyone.



This logic can also be reversed. Due to fasting, I have observed some people (of any faith) develop a superiority complex and look down on others around them. This leads to negative behaviour. It is not possible to predict how many and who will have this reaction so should fasting be taught at all?



> And the fact is that fasting does change one's state of consciousness --  due in part to the lower blood sugar and fluid levels -- enabling the  person fasting to think/perceive in a different way.



This change is not necessarily a positive one. If I miss a meal, I become faint and I can't think straight. That's quite a common reaction, esp in people who are at the lower end of the weight scale! Fasting for them should be avoided, as well as in people with health problems. A Muslim friend of mine wanted to continue fasting when she was pregnant due to notion that it makes her a better person. She came very close to permanently harming her child.



akiva said:


> Is Guru Ji's objection to *fasting*, or *mindless, meaningless* fasting?
> 
> How can mindful, meaningful fasting be worse than mindless, meaningless Langar?
> 
> ...



Spiritual discipline and service to other cannot and must not be separated for a Sikh. It is not possible to progress spirituality without serving others, otherwise it is merely a selfish act. Even if the reasons for funding langar are selfish, many benefit. Even in the UK, many homeless students and pthers (including non Sikhs) are fed by Gurwara langars. Fasting can never achieve such outcomes so the 2 things can never be compared.



> 3) A poster objected to fasting because it leads to pride. I pointed out  that by that standard -- that things leading to pride are bad -- then  Turban Pride Day should be rejected as well.



It is important to differentiate between pride in self and pride in identity. Ego is pride in self and can lead to negative behaviours. Pride in turban is encouraging adherence to a set of values which encourages community living and serving others.


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## findingmyway (Jul 27, 2013)

I would love to see a different kind of fast, that can be kept permanently. That is a fast from excess material possessions. We have become such a consumer society and we are destroying the planet. If everyone pledged to only buy what was needed, that would be a true fast!!:japosatnamwaheguru:


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