# Greedy Jathedars And Their Political Motivations



## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

*THE CORRUPTION OF JATHEDARS- do they have right to judge* 
I would like to bring up an interesting point and see what your views were on the subject. As you know, recently there have been a lot of summonings by the Jatherdar's of our panth. I think that they have no right to judge the likes of Darshan Singh Ragi or Kala Aghana when they themselves are thugs. They visit dera's such as this Baba's. He was caught in a motel with a woman other than his wife. Swore on the Guru Granth Sahib and lied. He is now involved in Human Smuggling. And just as recent as Nov 8th, JathedarGiani Gurbachan Singh (Akal Takhat) and Jathedar Iqbal Singh (Sri Patna Sahib) were at his dera. How can they justify this and then go and say they have the knowledge to decide if others are committing anti-sikh activities. I know the family at whose house these Jathedars stayed at and they told me that they heard they heard them talking on the phone and saying that they only come to the U.S. to get Lafaafe (bags full of money). I mean how can someone who associates readily with anti-sikhs such as chicago Baba, be allowed to judge Ragi and Dilgeer. Not they aren't wrong, but a criminal has no right to judge a criminal.

*A TRUE CASE THAT PROVES MY POINT:*

Apparently our greedy Jathedars who are puppets for politicians can not be put under public scrutiny. They are just as anti-panthic as Kala Afgana. Perhaps even more because they are in a position that affects millions and they misuse their power. They visit the deras of self proclaimes "sant babas" like the one in chicago. The very same baba who takes drugs, whos granthis smoke and drink, who married although he has a wife and a child in india, the very baba who wamanizes. These jathedars visit his dera, they go on stage and say they are in the U.S. with his "bidaulat". 
*AND NOW I WILL REVEAL THEIR TRUE COLORS!! *This Chicago Baba is involved in a feud with another member of the Gurdwara who he incorrectly removed because the member did not agree with the babas womanizing ways. He barred the whole family from coming to the gurdwara. Their children did kirtan and he told them to get off the stage while they were performing shabad. He threatened the children and called the police on them when they said that gurdwara is guru's house and everyone is allowed. The member has now brought a civil suit against the Baba for illegaly removing him as member for the gurdwara and kicking his family out. The baba went around making up lies that the member came to the gurdwara drunk and caused disruption along with other lies. When these Jathedars (Akal Takhat and Patna Sahib) were at his dera, he sent them to the families house to convince them to drop the case and that the Baba was ready to apologize and let them back in(why would he do this is he was not wrong?). The famiyl said no and that the baba had to be stopped and they would not let him off easy. When they questioned the jathedars about the Baba's womanizing and anti-sikh deeds (human smuggling, drug taking, etc.), the jathedars said that this is not the problem at hand and that they should take the case back or the family will be summoned to the Akal Takhat. THe family explained that the case is not against the gurdwara but against the Baba and that the jathedars have no jurisdiction in the matter. What kind of jathedars are these? Is this all they have left to do? We have millions of problems in our panth and they are doing the bidding of this Baba because he will most likely pay them an extra thousand or two? They ignore the Baba's womanizing and the use of a gurdwara as front for human smuggling and oppress a Sikh trying to stop this Baba and have his children be let back into a gurdwara? I spit on any one who supports this jathedar and conspires against a true sikh, even if it is a jathedar.


*BASIC POINTS-*

1) Do these Jathedars have any right to judge others when they stay at deras of baba's such as the one stated above? They are greedy and have political motivations.

2) These jathedars think the can summon anyone to the Akal Takhat, as shown in the second paragraph. Since when is that right?

3) Any time someone tried to judge these "leaders" on forums, people call them anti-panthic. Since when are these leaders above public scrutiny? I only bow to Waheguru, everyone else is common man.​


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## Archived_Member16 (Nov 26, 2009)

_*With due apologies to all:*_

They have set themselves up as the "Dharamraj" of the Sikhs ! When in fact they are the "MAHA CHAMCHAS" of Badals i.e. personal puppets for Akali leaders /politicians ! 

Divide & rule is in their blood now, for total control & dictatorship. Their motto: "Do what we say, and not what we do !"

They are the main cause of universal decline of Sikhism! They only worship "votes & notes".

In my books they are totally irrelevant and impotent to the vast majority of the Sikhs in this day & age.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

Soul_jyot said:


> _*With due apologies to all:*_
> 
> They have set themselves up as the "Dharamraj" of the Sikhs ! When in fact they are the "MAHA CHAMCHAS" of Badals i.e. personal puppets for Akali leaders /politicians !
> 
> ...



I will be completely honest with you, I AGREE. In my opinion, Jaginder Singh Vedanti, the last jathedar of Akal Takhat was a very good person. He stayed at our house when he would come to the U.S. and as far as a person, he was very knowledgeable and overall a good person. There was political pressure on him and he did try to keep politics out of it but on certain decisions he did fold. Jathedar of Takhat Sri Kesgarh Sahib, Giani Tarlochan Singh, is also a very nice person, very knowledgeable, and keeps politics out of his decisions.. Giani Iqbal Singh (Takhat Sri Patna Sahib) and Giani Gurbachan Singh (Sri Akal Takhat Sahib) on the other hand are thieves. I do not know much about the other Jathedars (from Takhat Sri Hazoor Sahib and Takhat Sri Damdama Sahib) but Iqbal Singh and Gurbachan Singh are without a doubt greedy and politically motivated.


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2009)

Soul Jyot ji

One thing that occurs to me -- this is something that has been played out again and again, maybe from 1902, the same scripts and only the individual bodies have shifted into the same actor's roles.

There is also more to this than meets the eye from news coverage. What the simple and plain motivation might be for Badal to care so much or for Lamba to work so diligently has not yet surfaced in clear view yet.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

I think it all has to do with votes. Large population of people in Punjab are Sikhs. We are a very religious people and if you control those that run SGPC or heads of Takhats, you have entry to all public events. You get to make speeches. It is all about networking and these politicians control all these religious people. This is the biggest problem in India as a whole, the connection between religion and Politics. I know that there will always be a connection but in India it is huge You have whole parties based off of religion, or who have strong ties into religion. I believe this is incorrect and only hurts both the political aspect and religious aspect. In the end, it is about money, votes, and power. Like i stated, these Jathedars visited this mans house and told him to drop the case. When he said no they said they would summon him to Akal Takhat. What job do they have in this matter? A person is suing a Pakhandi Baba in a civil suit in the United States and these Jathedars are interferring? Why? Because the Baba gave them money, that is why. WHen questioned about the Sadhs misdeeds, they said it is not the matter at hand. What kind of jathedars are these?


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2009)

So the life, martyrdom, sacrifices, legacy and holiness of Sri Guru Gobind Singh have become their football? That for me -- not a citizen of India -- is where my feelings of sorrow reside. In that realization.

That is my only reason for participating in these discussion.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

That is the biggest problem. They do not really care about any of that. THey may have knowledge of history or Shabads but they do not apply it to their lives. Everyone knows that Chicago Baba *deleted *not wake up at amrit vela, or even do paath. But he has memorized lines from Guru Granth Sahib and knows Saakhis and he tries to act like he is a Sant. These Jathedars act like they are true sikhs but their deeds are not pure. I know kids in U.S. who have not taken amrit, eat meat, and cut their hair but atleast they try to apply lessons of Guru's into their lives. In my mind, they are more Sikh than these fakes.

You have to be careful ji about some statements.  narayanjot kaur


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## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

vikram9274 said:


> That is the biggest problem. They do not really care about any of that. THey may have knowledge of history or Shabads but they do not apply it to their lives. Everyone knows that Chicago Baba *deleted *not wake up at amrit vela, or even do paath. But he has memorized lines from Guru Granth Sahib and knows Saakhis and he tries to act like he is a Sant. These Jathedars act like they are true sikhs but their deeds are not pure. I know kids in U.S. who have not taken amrit, eat meat, and cut their hair but atleast they try to apply lessons of Guru's into their lives. In my mind, they are more Sikh than these fakes.
> 
> You have to be careful ji about some statements.  narayanjot kaur




Ma'am, it is common knowledge in Chicago that the "Baba" himself  *deleted *Many of the giani's at his gurdwara also smoke cigarettes and drink. I go to his gurdwara from time to time and have seen Harjant Singh, who does kirtan and is a granthi at the gurdwara, smoking cigarettes out in the parking lot and drinking.


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## kds1980 (Nov 26, 2009)

What is the condition of Punjabi sikh community,we cannot expect any better leaders.
Female foeticide,dowry, illegal immigration,drugs etc. Just name the problem and we have
it in our community.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

Kanwardeep Ji, I understand that. But our RELIGIOUS leaders should be just that, religious. Instead, they have poltiical aspirations of their own or are politically motivated. They do the bidding of those who give them the most money. They themselves do not follow even the most basic of religious principles, yet we expect them to lead the religion or make decisions? They think they have the right to judge or punish anti-panthic forces when they themselves commit the most anti-panthic deeds.


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2009)

But SPN cannot be a platform for a potential law suit Vikram ji. Even if it is true, we can be sued. You are making an accusation of a Class 3 felony. Please don't.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 26, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> But SPN cannot be a platform for a potential law suit Vikram ji. Even if it is true, we can be sued. You are making an accusation of a Class 3 felony. Please don't.



I apologize.


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## spnadmin (Nov 26, 2009)

No problems. Sometimes I feel that I have to protect our members and also SPN from possible troubles down the line. :happykaur:


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## harbansj24 (Nov 27, 2009)

I think that there should be rule that the party in power in Punjab cannot be the party in control of SGPC! That is the only way to ensure that the Jathedars do not dance to the tune of the chief minister. Ask in confidence any ragi on the panel of Harmandir Sahib and he will tell you that he has to be on the beck and call of the VIPs meaning Badal family.

This was never the case upto mid sixties when the party incharge of Punjab was always Congress and the part in charge of SGPC was always Akali Dal. Until then we had the sterling personality of Master Tara Singh at the helm and Jathedar of Akal Takht was a highly regarded person of the panth. We had ragis of the caliber of Bhai Gopal Singh, Bhai Surjan Singh, Bhai Sudh Singh - Pradhan Singh etc.

Degeneration and corruption started when Akali Dal took charge both of the State and SGPC. Brief intervening periods of Congress rule did not help much. Amarinder Singh and Zail Singh only got into competetive politics. 

So to my mind the only way would be to institutionalise the system and that if the same party that is charge of SGPC comes to power in the state then SGPC automatically dissolves and fersh elections are held and the party in power in the state is barred from contesting. Maybe then the independenc of AT and SGPC can be restored!

A crazy idea but worth a look, I think!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 27, 2009)

People get the leaders they DESERVE. Period.
SIKHS too deserve the Jathedars they have.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> People get the leaders they DESERVE. Period.
> SIKHS too deserve the Jathedars they have.




This is where you are WRONG! We do not get to elect our jathedars or the head of the SGPC. Those decisions are made in a room by people behind closed doors. We do elect our political leaders but we do not get to elect the Jathedars or the heads of Gurdwara Committees.


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## spnadmin (Nov 27, 2009)

You know the political situation with the SGPC, the jathedars, as pertaining to Professor Darshan Singh has now made a strange turn in a "strange drama." Everything has moved about 10 degrees off from the start. It is very subtle. It is very tricky. You have to really think about it to get it. And it is ALL about political manipulations. Pure and simple. Unless the political system is altered, this will continue indefinitely. :idea:


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## vikram9274 (Nov 27, 2009)

An interesting Questions is that why the sudden change in Darshan Singhs opinion? He did kirtan from bani of Dasam Granth less than 10 years ago. Praised it, did katha from it. And one night all of a sudden it became fake? As for the politicians involvement, once again we need to change the way the jathedars are elected or the head of SGPC is elected. It is all political. And the Jathedars are nothing but puppets. Iqbal Singh has two wifes, is just a bad person in general. From what I saw of Gurbachan Singh and stated in the second paragraph of the first post, he too is greedy and politically motivated.


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## spnadmin (Nov 27, 2009)

vikram ji

I do not know why Professor Darshan Singh changed his mind. This is an historical question, and it is possible that he is not inclined to discuss it either. Let's see what we can find out.


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## vikram9274 (Nov 27, 2009)

well that is the biggest problem. They are taking certain writing and converting them to make sense of their *******ed arguments. They should be sat down on national television against scholars who have studied Dasam Granth and should debate. Bring up the parts of the dasam granth and how they go along with their interpretations. This way, they can not take certain parts and contort them to agree with their interpretations. Plus, this will educate the sikh population of the Dasam Granth. Truth is that most of the Sikh population hasn't even read the whole SGGS, much less the Dasam Granth. Rather than calling him and making him sit behind closed doors, they should also have this debate. People argue that this will just give him a stage to make his distorted claims, but if we have it well organized and have scholars there that can show that his points are wrong, then his whole argument will be destroyed. If we know for a fact that the Dasam Granth is written by Guru Ji and is Legit then why should we be scared of him and his views?


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## spnadmin (Nov 27, 2009)

I am not sure if this answers your questions. 

Here are 3 audio files. The Download option does not work, so you will have to use the player.

<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290"><embed swliveconnect="default" src="http://www.ggsacademy.com/modules/swftools/shared/1pixelout/player.swf" wmode="transparent" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" scale="showall" quality="autohigh" loop="false" menu="false" play="true" name="" base="http://www.ggswebacademy.com/" allowfullscreen="true" salign="tl" flashvars="autostart=no&loop=no&soundFile=http://www.mediafire.com/file/y0ymdlmwnyn/guru-granth-or-guru-panth.mp3" allowscriptaccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="24" width="290"> </object>  
*Guru Granth / Guru Panth & Takht's*

   <object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290"></object><object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290">

 <embed swliveconnect="default" src="http://www.ggsacademy.com/modules/swftools/shared/1pixelout/player.swf" wmode="transparent" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" scale="showall" quality="autohigh" loop="false" menu="false" play="true" name="" base="http://www.ggswebacademy.com/" allowfullscreen="true" salign="tl" flashvars="autostart=no&loop=no&soundFile=http://www.mediafire.com/file/myk1nm12nzz/correct-your-mistake.mp3" allowscriptaccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="24" width="290"> </object>

*Why did kirtan from 'DG' before?* 

<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290">  

 </object><object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290"></object>

*Why not touch this issue during Akal Takht seva?*
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290"><embed swliveconnect="default" src="http://www.ggsacademy.com/modules/swftools/shared/1pixelout/player.swf" wmode="transparent" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" scale="showall" quality="autohigh" loop="false" menu="false" play="true" name="" base="http://www.ggswebacademy.com/" allowfullscreen="true" salign="tl" flashvars="autostart=no&loop=no&soundFile=http://www.mediafire.com/file/n2hjykmrtqt/dg-issue-during-seva.mp3" allowscriptaccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="24" width="290"> </object>  

<table style="border: medium none ; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="600"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td class="tdClass">
</td><td class="tdClass">   
</td></tr></tbody></table><table style="border: medium none ; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="600"><tbody><tr><td class="tdClass">
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Source is Dasam Granth | Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) Web Academy
 </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## vikram9274 (Dec 2, 2009)

RAGI REJECTS NITNEM AND AMRIT SANCHAR BANEES & ARDAAS
                    PANTHIC.ORG
                    Published on December 1, 2009

                                          Sri Amritsar Sahib - After the heretic Darshan Singh was summoned to Sri Akal Takht Sahib, further audio and video evidence has surfaced corroborating the complaints filed by Panthic organizations that the Ragi has been openly attacking fundamental Sikh concepts and practices such as the sacred Nitnem, Amrit Sanchar ceremony, and the Sikh Ardaas.
 Panthic organizations have requested the Apex Sikh Takht to take strict action against the blasphemous ragi for violating Panthic edicts, challenging age-old Panthic traditions, and hurting Sikh sentiments. The Ragi has been ordered to appear at Sri Akal Takht Sahib at noontime on December 5th, 2009.
 For the benefit of Panthic.org readers, below are a small collection of audio and video clips evidencing the Ragi’s offensive remarks.

 <object data="http://www.youtube.com/v/pQWKxDZ3m8M&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="344" width="425"> 




 </object> </p> _"ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ…ਜਦੋਂ… ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੀਆਂ ਕੁਝ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀਆਂ ਰਚਨਾਵਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੀਆਂ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਸ਼ਾਮਿਲ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਗਈਆਂ ਉਹ ਰਵਨਾਵਾਂ ਉਹ ਵੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਵਕਤ…ਨਹੀਂ, ਮੈ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਕਰ ਦਿਆਂ – ਗੁਰੂ ਦਸਮ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹ ਦੀਆਂ ਰਚਨਾਵਾਂ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦਾ ਅੱਜ ਜਿਹੜਾ ਅੱਜ ਰੂਪ ਅਸੀਂ ਵੇਖਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਇਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਸਮ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹ ਦੇ ਵਕਤ ਦੇ ਫ਼ੈਸਲੇ ਨਹੀਂ"  
_- Ragi Darshan Singh 
​


The true motives of the Ragi and his avid supporters, the Spokesman-Kala-Afghani combine, are rapidly becoming clear. Their goal seems to be the open invalidation of the Khalsa identity and culture. This is being done by repeatedly rejecting the sacred Khanday-ki-Pahul ceremony, the five kakkars and the concept of the Panth Piaray by simply labeling them as Brahman or RSS baggage.
 Below is an excerpt of an article written by a pro-KalaAfghani naastic that was recently published on their naastic mouthpiece "Sikh Marg." It sums up the true intentions of the Ragi and his cohorts:
_"ਅਸੀਂ ਹੁਣ ਪੂਰਨ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ਼ ਨਾਲ ਕਹ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਨੇ ਪਹਿਲੀਆਂ ਨੋਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੁੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮਾਂ ਵਿਰੁਧ ਕੋਈ ਨਵੀਂ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਨਾਈ।

ਖੰਡੇ ਦੀ ਪਹੁਲ, ਕਕਾਰ, ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰੇ, ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਰੂਪ ਜਾਨ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਨਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਥੇ ਟੇਕਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬਸਤਰ ਅਸਤਰ ਦੇ ਨਿਵਾਜਨਾਂ ਇਸ ਝੂਠੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਨੀ ਇਤਹਾਸ ਦੀ ਦੇਨ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਸਭ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਵਿਰੁਧ ਕਮ ਅਜ ਸਿਖ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਕੀ ਇਸ ਕੂੜੇ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਦੀ ਅਸਲ਼ੀਅਤ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਸਮਝਨਗੇ?"
- Dr. Gurmukh Singh, Delhi (SikhMarg) _​ The Sikh community needs to be vigilant against continuous onslaught on the sacred Sikh traditions, and reject the message being spread by the heretical Ragi and his band of atheist riffraffs.






here is the complete link- Panthic.org




I have heard that Ragi has said that all these cd's and audio tapes are doctored and edited and that he has originals. What if his tapes are edited and these are originals? I think they should be tested by professionals to see if they have been doctored (whether the Ragis are "originals" or Lambas "doctored" are truly edited). This would a big offense since it will an open attempt to mislead the Akal Takhat, whether committed by ragi or lamba.


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2009)

I can't help wondering why the solution comes from a focus on Professor Darshan Singh and not on the venal corruption of the gurmatta process itself. The focus in my opinion should be on Shiromani Akali Dal where the paralysis of mind heart and soul begins. Until that happens, this is never going to end.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 2, 2009)

ma'am this is not a special incident. This happens time and time again. When once goes against the flow or the common belief he is persecuted (galileo, greek philosophers, etc). I am not saying I agree with Ragi or am against him. My problem is with the way this is all being played out by both partied as well as by the media. I personally bleieve that we should professionals look at both the videos that Ragi will provide as well as Lamba and find out which one is doctored. If Lamba has in fact doctored the videos or the audio evidence, then he is in the wrong and should be punished for an attempt to deceive the Sikh Population as well as the Akal Takhat. The way the Jathedars have handled not only the Ragi debacle but also Kala-afgana, Chicago Baba,  those in the Haryana Gurdwara Prabandakh Committee situation, and many others, is despicable and outrageously stupid. Every other day there ar new media releases and in the end, either something stupid and injust will be done when Ragi is presented at the Akal Takhat or nothing will be done at all and only another date will set to meet.


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2009)

vikram9274 said:


> ma'am this is not a special incident. This happens time and time again. When once goes against the flow or the common belief he is persecuted (galileo, greek philosophers, etc). I am not saying I agree with Ragi or am against him. My problem is with the way this is all being played out by both partied as well as by the media. I personally bleieve that we should professionals look at both the videos that Ragi will provide as well as Lamba and find out which one is doctored. If Lamba has in fact doctored the videos or the audio evidence, then he is in the wrong and should be punished for an attempt to deceive the Sikh Population as well as the Akal Takhat. The way the Jathedars have handled not only the Ragi debacle but also Kala-afgana, Chicago Baba,  those in the Haryana Gurdwara Prabandakh Committee situation, and many others, is despicable and outrageously stupid. Every other day there ar new media releases and in the end, either something stupid and injust will be done when Ragi is presented at the Akal Takhat or nothing will be done at all and only another date will set to meet.




Thanks for once again in yet another thread misunderstanding the complexities of this issue which has been raging since 1902, and which has reached a crescendo in the past year or so.

Mis-steps by individual Jathedars and their chameleon-like natures have left many of the rest of us wondering what will happen to our core belief that Guru Gobind Singh sealed the Adi Granth  and declared it Guru.


Here is something to think about. Professor Darshan Ragi is not the one who is going against the flow of common belief -- i.e., that Guru Granth is our only Guru. That "Dasam Granth" is not Guru. But Professor Darshan Singh is the one we should compare to the persecuted philosophers. Certainly the Jathedars are not among the persecuted. Can you see the contradictions in your own depiction? The one who is a champion for a core belief of Sikhism is the one who is being persecuted. The persecutors are hardly proponents of this core Sikh belief. Or shall I say they have let it be hi-jacked?


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2009)

BTW, How is the weather in Chicago?


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## vikram9274 (Dec 2, 2009)

ma'am you have misinterpreted my comment once again.  My point was that Ragi is the one being persecuted. I was comparing Ragi to Gailileo who was persecuted for his views that the earth revolved around the sun. My point was that when one goes against the views of "leaders" or those who are at top, attempts are made to shut him up. Ragi is making it so these Leaders views are being challenged and more work is being created for them, which they do not like. I was criticizing the jathedars and their mishandling of the issue just like you stated. I don't particularly care much for Ragi's views or of those who oppose him, just the way this whole thing has been mishandled and become a debacle.



> The way the Jathedars have handled not only the Ragi debacle but also Kala-afgana, Chicago Baba, those in the Haryana Gurdwara Prabandakh Committee situation, and many others, is despicable and outrageously stupid.


The weather is okay. It's getting pretty cold. We're expecting to see the first snow of the season either by the end of this week or sometime next week.


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2009)

Thank you for your clarification...


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## vikram9274 (Dec 2, 2009)

ofcourse ma'am. See, my belief is that we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves. We are in the top ten religions of the world as far as followers go. I jsut believe that rather than spending our time arguing and bickering amongst ourselves, we should expand our religion and deal with the 100's of problems eating at it. The truth is that the youth in punjab have started taking drugs and cutting their hair. And abroad, it is the same. 

1) We need to do parchar of Sikhi and I believe that corruption in the religion and negativity (corruption, scandals, Fake Baba's, greedy leaders) just make the youth want to run from Sikhi.

2) After 9/11, we have a chance to differentiate ourselves from other religions and educate and spread information about our religion. We need to capitalize on this.

3) The Jathedars need to stop making trips abroad and take care of business. They just sit around all day and visit functions or go abroad. Just to get together, they make dates months from when complaints are filed. This is their job, their duty. I think they should be taking care of panthic matters daily and in a swift manner. I see laziness on their part and an inconsistency on policy. 

4) A movement to separate politics from Religion. A movement towards making sure that no one in a position of authority has any ties to any certain sect or political party. This is perhaps the most important issue but at the same time, the hardest to fix. Political ties, fake Sants and sects provide money and greed is at the heart of these leaders.

5) These jathedars have so much infighting amongst themselves that it is incomprehensible to expect them to sort out panthic issues. We need to make it clear that they represent the religion first and that they should make decisions that are best for the panth and the religion as a whole rather than themselves or their respective Takhats.

These are just some core issues among many others, but I think these are at the heart of the problems in our religion. I believe that we need to clean from the inside out. Clean the leadership, instruct the youth, educate people about our religion. We spend so much time fighting among ourselves and pointing fingers at particular organizations that we have left our panth in ruins. We must construct a strong base and build on that. Then we can deal with all the other issues. This is easier said than done, and I understand that. But we must attempt to make progress, even if it is in baby steps


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## harbansj24 (Dec 2, 2009)

vikram9274 ji,

What you have said, I think is in complete alignment with many others in the forum have been passionately being saying for some time .


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## vikram9274 (Dec 2, 2009)

I just don't understand why no change is made. If the Sikh people have been saying these things, then changes should be made. Media should push these changes as well but instead they just fuel the controversy and say that they sell good, panthic news. I will go out on a limb and say that if things continue the way they are, we will see our panth fall. There will always be Sikhs but corruption, greed, phony leaders, fake babas, and political influences will ruin the future generations belief in Sikhi. I myself have seen this happen time and time again. I used to visit the Chicago Babas dera every now and then and have seen children doing kirtan their and when his negativity and womanizing was revealed and he became a psycho and started stopping people from coming to the gurdwara, they stopped doing kirtan and cut their hair. When I myself confronted him about why he is stopping people from coming to the gurdwara, he told me to stop coming (which I did). These children question our leaders and phony sants.  This is already happening not only abroad but in Punjab. There are already so many kids who are going astray, and all this will only push them away ****her. I'm just apalled that ourl eaders spend time going abroad and attending functions instead of addressing the thousands of issues eating away at our panth. But then again, it shouldn't surprise me, this has been going on in our religion for a long time now and it will be our downfall.


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2009)

*There are already 2 threads about the Chicagowale Baba. Please do not divert the thread and stay on topic. Future comments about the Chicago baba should be posted on the appropriate threads, or a new thread should be started. Thank you, Narayanjot Kaur
*


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