# Do Sikhs Need Another Guru?



## Archived_member2 (Apr 14, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Do Sikhs need another Guru than the true Sabad Guru? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also suggests the same Sabad Guru.
What are your views? Please express it.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2008)

Balbir ji

A good question because it should motivate responses from those seeking spiritual identity beyond and outside of the Shabad Guru. Interesting who they might be or if they might respond.


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## carolineislands (Apr 14, 2008)

I can only speak for myself and I will say that I find it is better for me spiritually to stick to SGGS.  There are so many opposing factions out there and, not only do I not want to waste time, I don't want to pick up any more negativity along the way because it hinders my spiritual progress.  I've been asking questions about some of the different groups in Sikhism and I think I have a general idea of the major groups and their fundamental differences but beyond that I don't see any point in trying to judge who is right or wrong, when the SGGS offers me more wisdom than I could ever conceive of even if I were to read it every waking moment for the rest of my life.  I figure I can't really go wrong by sticking to SGGS and listening to the voice of my Husband Lord -- all those other roads have too many potholes for me.


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## pk70 (Apr 14, 2008)

Carolineislands Ji

Well said. That is what a Sikh needs to think.


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## Astroboy (Apr 14, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Balbir ji
> 
> A good question because it should motivate responses from those seeking spiritual identity beyond and outside of the Shabad Guru. Interesting who they might be or if they might respond.


 

A bold comment, Aad Ji. It is often misunderstood what Shabad Guru is. Some say shabad are the written words. So here's an extract of Bhai Nand Lal Rehit Nama to understand what is Shabad Guru.

*Rehatnama Bhai Nand Lal 


[Prashan-uttar *(Q&A)* Attributed to Nand Lal]

Nand Lal speaks: 

Doha 
'You say that we should behold your presence, O Master. Tell me where we are to find you.' (5) 

the Guru speaks: 

Doha 

'Listen attentively, Nand (Lal). I am manifested in Three ways : the formless or invisible (nirgun), the material or visible (sargun), and the divine Word (gur-shabad). This I shall explain to you. (6) 

Chaupai 

'The first of these transcends all that is material . It is the neti neti of the Vedas, the spirit which dwells in every heart as light permeates the water held in a vessel.' (7) 
'The second is the sacred scripture. This you must accept as part of me , treating its letters as the hairs of my body , This truly is so,' 8 
'Sikhs who wish to see the Guru will do so when they come to the Granth. He who is wise will bathe at dawn and then will walk thrice around (the sacred Granth). (9) 

Dohara 

Come with reverence and sit in my presence. Humbly bow and hear the words of the Guru Granth. 

Chaupai 

Hear the Word with devout affection for the Guru. Hear the Guru's Word of wisdom and read it that others may also hear. 
The person who wishes to converse with me should read the granth and reflect on what it says. (10) 
The person who wishes to hear my words should devoutly hear and reflect on the Granth. Acknowledge the Granth as my visible presence , rejecting the notion that it is other than me. (11) 
The third form is my Sikh, that Sikh who day and night is immersed in the words of sacred scripture (gurabani). The Sikh who loves and trusts the Word of the Guru is an ever-present manifestation of the Guru, (12) 
Such a Sikh is the one who hears the Guru's words of wisdom and reads them so that others may hear. Attentively he reads both Japuji and Jap, visiting places sanctified by the Gurus (guradavaran) and strictly avoiding adulterous liaisons. (13) 
The Gursikh who is faithful in service will find himself cleansed from all sense of self-dependence. He who is scrupulous in performing these obligations is the Sikh in whom I am made manifest. (14) 

Dohara 
Worthy is the Sikh who serves with devotion, expressing his obedience to me in the generous offerings, which he makes. (15) 
Such is the service which I receive from a Gursikh. Hear me , Nand (Lal). 
Giving himself he finds the deliverance which carries him to Paradise (baikunthe) (16) 

Nand Lal speaks : 

You have told me of three forms, Master: the invisible, the visble, and the Guru's Word . The invisible form we cannot see, and the visble is the obedient Sikh. (17) 

Chaupai 
How can we comprehend the infinity of your invisible form? The universe is your form, you whom we call Master , and your presence mystically pervades every heart . (How then can we perceive you ?) 18 

The Guru Speaks : 

You are a devout Sikh , Nand Lal . Hear this divine message which I impart to you. See the Guru as visible presence in his Sikhs and first you must serve me by diligently serving them (19) 
Next you must serve me by singing the divine Word , accepting it as truly a sign . He who accepts the scriture as the (Guru's) Word shall come to an understanding of (his) infinite being . (20) 
And so I conclude this homily , Brother. He who reads or hears it and pays careful heed to it will find himself the object of much admiration, his spirit mystically blended in Mine . 
This message of comfort and joy was delivered on the ninth day of the waxing moon in the month of Maghar, S. 1752 (4 December 1695 CE ) . Let the Guru's praises be eveywhere sung declares Nand Lal . (22)


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2008)

NamJapji

*A bold comment, Aad Ji. It is often misunderstood what Shabad Guru is. Some say shabad are the written words. So here's an extract of Bhai Nand Lal Rehit Nama to understand what is Shabad Guru.

*What is so bold about what I said? Shabad Guru is the medium, the message, and the messenger. His words, His treasure, and His voice. His words are the medium and His treasure is  the message*. *He speaks in His voice. 

                  ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੈ ਮਿਲੈ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਸਦੁ ਸੁਣੇ ॥੨॥
                   naanak so prabh mai milai ho jeevaa sadh sunae ||2||
                   O Nanak, meeting with that God, I live, hearing His Voice. ||2||

 Pretty basic stuff. 
Now I will read what you posted below. Had to get those thoughts out of my system :roll:


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## Astroboy (Apr 14, 2008)

As Caroline Ji puts it, *all those other roads have too many potholes for me -* this also applies to me. SGGS alone has ( while other means have lasted only a while)  given me the inner peace and the contentment I have been yeaning for all my seeking life. 

During my attendance for a children's programme on Vaisakhi  in Seremban, I found uplifting estacy within myself and realized that going to every satsang should have been such an experience.


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## spnadmin (Apr 14, 2008)

ਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
  mai aapanaa gur pooshh dhaekhiaa avar naahee thhaao ||1|l
  I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all.


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Apr 15, 2008)

sabh sikhon kau hukam hai guru manyeo GRATNH !!!y do we need another guru...wen all da answers lies in da gurugranth sahib jiii !!


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## singhbj (Apr 15, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Shabad Guru includes Gurbani of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Guru Gobind Singh ji ordered the SINGHS to do Nitnem of following Bani's

1. Jap ji Sahib
2. Jaap Sahib
3. Tav Prasad Swaiye
4. Chaupai Sahib
5. Anand Sahib

6. Rehras Sahib

7. Kirtan Sohila

8. Ardaas (Vaar Sri Bhagauti ji ki Patshahi 10)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Astroboy (Apr 15, 2008)

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
आसा महला ५ ॥
Āsā mehlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਆਤਮ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
सदा सदा आतम परगासु ॥
Saḏā saḏā āṯam pargās.
Forever and ever, the soul is illumined;
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
साधसंगति हरि चरण निवासु ॥१॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ har cẖaraṇ nivās. ||1||
in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, it dwells at the Feet of the Lord. ||1||
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਤਿ ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ॥
राम नाम निति जपि मन मेरे ॥
Rām nām niṯ jap man mėrė.
Chant the Lord's Name each and every day, O my mind.
ਸੀਤਲ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਜਾਹਿ ਸਭੇ ਮਨ ਤੇਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सीतल सांति सदा सुख पावहि किलविख जाहि सभे मन तेरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sīṯal sāŉṯ saḏā sukẖ pāvahi kilvikẖ jāhi sabẖė man ṯėrė. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
You shall find lasting peace, contentment and tranquility, and all your sins shall depart. ||1||Pause||
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਮ ॥
कहु नानक जा के पूरन करम ॥
Kaho Nānak jā kė pūran karam.
Says Nanak, one who is blessed with perfect good karma,
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੨॥੩੪॥
सतिगुर भेटे पूरन पारब्रहम ॥२॥३४॥
Saṯgur bẖėtė pūran pārbarahm. ||2||34||
meets the True Guru, and obtains the Perfect Supreme Lord God. ||2||34||


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Anonymous_Kaur Jee!

Quote "sabh sikhon kau hukam hai guru manyeo GRATNH !!!y do we need another guru...wen all da answers lies in da gurugranth sahib jiii !!"
I do not know which Guru has said so. Is he your Guru who has said so? I have not found this Vaak in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is suggesting all to receive Sabad Guru. Should we follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's suggestion or we should read it daily? Is it enough?


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Apr 15, 2008)

Sri Guru Granth sahib ji is the eternal Guru of sikhs or do you have some doubt about this Balbir ji. Please let us know as to the reason of posting this question. It may harm some new comers.


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## Astroboy (Apr 15, 2008)

Bhai Jaswinder Singh - Guru Guru Gur Kar Man Mor


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## Sikh80 (Apr 15, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is suggesting all to receive Sabad Guru.
> Balbir Singh



I have not come across this type of vaak in Granth sahib wherein it is suggested that you have stated.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the present Guru of Sikhs. Should Sikhs follow their present Guru or fake Baabaas and preachers who are teaching Sikhs from other writers?
Please clear your stand first.

Also, watch this video and find out why this Baabaa Jee is injecting listeners with so many things else than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Katha_06-09-2007_-_Tarik_Mantar_Hai_Waheguru.mpg

In the last minute of this Video he tries to convince the audience to remember something else than Naaraayan to get Muktee. Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee is suggesting doing Simran of Naaraayan though.

AMiq kwil nwrwiexu ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]
ANiq kwil nwrwexu ismrY EysI icNqw mih jy mrY ]
anti kaali naaraa-inu simrai aisee chintaa mahi jay marai.
End time remembers Naaraayan, dies in such thoughts,

bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMbru vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]
bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMb{ vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]
badati tilochanu tay nar muktaa peetambaru vaa kay ridai basai. ||5||2|| SGGS Ang 526-10
Speaks Tilochan, that Nar is liberated. Peetaamber resides in his heart.

My curiosity is to know why these preachers are leading Sikhs away from their Sabad Guru, suggested by the true Gurus innumerable times.

**************

Quote from Balbir Singh "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is suggesting all to receive Sabad Guru."
Reaction from Sikh 80 Jee "I have not come across this type of vaak in Granth sahib wherein it is suggested that you have stated."

Please listen. Guru Naanak Jee is singing.

eyk sbd iek iBiKAw mwgY ]
Ek sbd ek iBiKAw mwgY ]
ayk sabad ik bhikhi-aa maagai.
One Sabad, ask for one begging.

igAwnu iDAwnu jugiq scu jwgY ]4]
igAwnu iDAwnu jugiq scu jwgY ]4]
gi-aan Dhi-aan jugat sach jaagai. SGGS 223-12


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Apr 15, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Sri Guru Granth sahib ji is the eternal Guru of sikhs or do you have some doubt about this Balbir ji. Please let us know as to the reason of posting this question. It may harm some new comers.



You may like to reply to this as well so that things become clear.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "Sri Guru Granth sahib ji is the eternal Guru of sikhs or do you have some doubt about this Balbir ji."
Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee is the present Guru of Sikhs guiding them to receive true Sabad Guru or Naam.
Their message has convinced me with this truth.
Hear any lecture of a Baabaa or a Sikh preacher. Does he invite one to receive the wisdom of truth, Naam Sabad? Do the seekers get true Naam Sabad, as suggested by the reverend Gurus, through any one of them? How long they teach all wait for God's Grace? Did the true Guru ever ask seekers to wait?

Quote "Please let us know as to the reason of posting this question."
This may incite the thirst to seek the Sabad Guru. This is also to aware the readers of fake Baabaas and preachers who have nothing to offer when it comes to the wisdom of true Sabad Guru.

Quote "It may harm some new comers."
It may harm the business of many fake Baabaas.
New comers want to know Truth.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Apr 15, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> Do Sikhs need another Guru than the true Sabad Guru? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also suggests the same Sabad Guru.
> What are your views? Please express it.
> Balbir Singh



THis is the first post of the thread.It does not give any reference to any baba or fake baba. 
In any case sikhs do not accept the Human Gurus. Granth sahib is the guru. Yes, you may refer to that fake babas are not wanted as preachers. In that case there cannot be any disagreement.
Thanks!:u):


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## mkm (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Anonymous_Kaur Jee!

Quote "sabh sikhon kau hukam hai guru manyeo GRATNH !!!y do we need another guru...wen all da answers lies in da gurugranth sahib jiii !!"
I do not know which Guru has said so. Is he your Guru who has said so? I have not found this Vaak in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Are you suggesting that since"Guru manyo Granth" is not in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhs should not believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Shabad Guru?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is suggesting all to receive Sabad Guru. Should we follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's suggestion or we should read it daily? Is it enough?

Here you are saying now that Shri Guru Granth Sahib is suggesting to receive Shabad Guru, it is contradiction. There is a sect Naamdhari, they dont believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Guru since they have made a living Guru but Sikhs have a Shabad Guru  known as Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji, A Sikh should not make such a disgraceful statement towards Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


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## carolineislands (Apr 15, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> ਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> mai aapanaa gur pooshh dhaekhiaa avar naahee thhaao ||1|l
> I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all.


 
And it really is just that simple.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 15, 2008)

This is ridiculous, Sikhs are debating about if we need another Guru.  I humbly say to you stop this nonsense we have one Guru and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib.  Humbly bow down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib for Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our living Guru.


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## spnadmin (Apr 15, 2008)

Singh

So far there is no debate. No one has disagreed. Everyone is in agreement. 


What you are reading is each person saying that there is one and only guru. Only they are affirming one another and saying this using their own way of speaking, their own words. So it is a discussion, and not a debate, as of yet.

I am still waiting to see if someone says something different.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Mkm Jee!

Quote "Are you suggesting that since"Guru manyo Granth" is not in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhs should not believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Shabad Guru?"
Sikhs are tamed to believe that the message 'Guru manyo Granth' is from Guru Gobind Singh Jee. This is a false information and misleading. 
Truthful Sikhs deserve truth.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the present Guru of Sikhs giving true messages from the Gurus. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is suggesting repeatedly to seek the Sabad Guru.
Not even once the true Gurus asked people to hang on them or their recorded messages and feel that they have reached the Sabad Guru.

Quote "Here you are saying now that Shri Guru Granth Sahib is suggesting to receive Shabad Guru, it is contradiction. There is a sect Naamdhari, they dont believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Guru since they have made a living Guru but Sikhs have a Shabad Guru known as Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji, A Sikh should not make such a disgraceful statement towards Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji."
I am not asking anyone to seek and meet a fake Baabaa whom Gurdwaaraa committees are inviting for misleading Parchaars. I am trying to aware the readers to seek and receive the true Sabad Guru.

**************

Quote from Singh Jee "This is ridiculous, Sikhs are debating about if we need another Guru."
Ridiculous is to seek any other Guru than the Sabad Guru, the true Naam.

Quote "I humbly say to you stop this nonsense we have one Guru and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib."
It is perfectly all right. Please have it. May I ask? When will people follow the true Guru?

Quote "Humbly bow down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib for Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our living Guru."
Please do not let someone cheat your soul listening, the living Baabaa sitting beside the true Guru.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 15, 2008)

Balbir ji

If there is no need to discuss this then why did you start the thread in the first place? This is the thread starter post.

If you think that there is nothing more to say, then should one of the mods close the thread? Let us know.





Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Do Sikhs need another Guru than the true Sabad Guru? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also suggests the same Sabad Guru.
> ...


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## pk70 (Apr 15, 2008)

singhbj ji

Are you suggesting that besides Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru ji asked to accept second Guru ? I mean bani of Dasam Granth  to be  as econd Guru of Sikhs? Please clarify it.


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## Astroboy (Apr 15, 2008)

There is a "cerita dongeng" and the story goes: Pak Kadok was given money to buy a buffalo from a nearby town. His wife knew that he did not know what a buffalo looks like so she gave him a few pointers on what to look for. What he brought back was a mechanical grass cutter instead of a buffalo. He explained to his wife that this is what a salesman (preacher) suggested to him when he presented the pointers like sharp horns for cutter blade, making a loud noise for engine starting, four feet for four wheels, and what not.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "If there is no need to discuss this then why did you start the thread in the first place?"
Many Baabaas on stages in front of the Sikh audience are preaching that it is enough to have the printed message of the Gurus. God's Grace will fall on its possessors automatically.
God's Grace falls on a person when he receives true Naam Sabad and comes to know its Simran.
This is the difference. All the Gurus say that the Sabad Guru and God are the same.
The fake Baabaas but say that God and the printed material bounded are the same.

This is another question why these preachers are not able to transfer the wisdom of true Sabad.

This topic has just started and may develop in a great way.

Does anyone know a Baabaa who can share the Godly wisdom of Naam or true Sabad with seekers?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2008)

Balbir ji

I will try again.

NamJap ji -- Wonderful!

*There is a "cerita dongeng" and the story goes: Pak Kadok was given money to buy a buffalo from a nearby town. His wife knew that he did not know what a buffalo looks like so she gave him a few pointers on what to look for. What he brought back was a mechanical grass cutter instead of a buffalo. He explained to his wife that this is what a salesman (preacher) suggested to him when he presented the pointers like sharp horns for cutter blade, making a loud noise for engine starting, four feet for four wheels, and what not.

LOL :ice:
*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2008)

Shabad GURU is one and ONLY...SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE.
Agiyaa bhaiyee AKAL ki..SABH SIKHAN KO HUKM HAI..
GURU MANIYO GRANTH.

Point to ponder over..SGGS only mentions "AKAAL"....from Mool Mantar..AKAAL MOORAT onwards..while OUTSIDE SGGS there is numerous mentions of KAAL...as in Kaal kantak mariah. AKAAL is WAHEGURU as ONLY Waheguru is BEYOND TIME and Birth/death etc... and AKAAL never DIES. IS "Kaal" the same as AKAAL.. can this be so ?? Why is Kaal Kantak MARIAH ??

OUTSIDE SGGS we have numerous other banis we can read/vichaar do kirtan katha of... the Nitnem banis (Rehat of Khalsa), Bhai Gurdass Jis Vaars, Kabits, Swaiyaas, Bhai Nanad Laall Jis Kavitas....Katha of Bhai Santokhs Singh jsi Suraj Parkash etc etc...ALL these are NOT "Gurbani" as Guru Ji never included any of them in SGGS. Lets not try and SECOND GUESS GURU JI and doubt His actions or try and "IMPROVE" on Him.
Regards
Gyani Jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!
> 
> Does anyone know a Baabaa who can share the Godly wisdom of Naam or true Sabad with seekers?
> ...



YES Balbir Ji...

The Baaba is "BABA NANAK" and we can all read what He has to say in the SGGS....from Panna 1 - 1429....

And yes there are a Lot of "FAKE BABAS" who make USE of the SGGS of Baba nanak Ji to.."sell" their own versions of naam and true shabad..Radha Soamis, Nirankaris,Namdharerees, Sacha Sauda , Noormehliah, Asutosh etc all come to mind as these Fakes... None of them has his own "granth"...only plagirised versions of SGGS..

Gyani Jarnail Singh


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Apr 16, 2008)

Singh said:


> This is ridiculous, Sikhs are debating about if we need another Guru. I humbly say to you stop this nonsense we have one Guru and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Humbly bow down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib for Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our living Guru.


 

oh..thankyou pajji !!!

i totalliii agree !!!


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee!

Quote "OUTSIDE SGGS we have numerous other banis we can read/vichaar do kirtan katha of... the Nitnem banis (Rehat of Khalsa), Bhai Gurdass Jis Vaars, Kabits, Swaiyaas, Bhai Nanad Laall Jis Kavitas....Katha of Bhai Santokhs Singh jsi Suraj Parkash etc etc...ALL these are NOT "Gurbani" as Guru Ji never included any of them in SGGS."
Surely one can read and do vichaar on the world literature of his choice. Why do they but establish this business in Gurdwaaraas besides Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee? Why they divert Sikhs to other directions than the true Guru? Have they become spiritually so poor that topics from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee are completed? Is the beant (infinite) Keertan of Hari Sabad over? Has it begun at all in a so-called Sikh of the present time?

Quote "Lets not try and SECOND GUESS GURU JI and doubt His actions or try and "IMPROVE" on Him."
The impulse is to improve true spiritual growth with right practices of an individual, not the Guru.
Preachers have always been worried about their business.
God sends true Gurus on earth to create true Sikhs (learners of true Naam).

Quote from Balbir Singh "Does anyone know a Baabaa who can share the Godly wisdom of Naam or true Sabad with seekers?"
Gyani Jee' response "YES Balbir Ji...The Baaba is "BABA NANAK" and we can all read what He has to say in the SGGS....from Panna 1 - 1429...."
Some Baabaas claim to have met Guru Naanak Jee.
May I ask if someone has met Baabaa Guru Granth Saahib Jee and received the wisdom of true Naam Sabad?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib's translators and their communicators have proven that they have not.

**************

The reverend Guru's first message is JAP. Today Sikhs have learnt everything else than what true Guru suggests, from whom?

Please come to know true Naam Sabad. No one may need to read anymore Balbir Singh's posts.


Balbir Singh


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## singhbj (Apr 16, 2008)

pk70 said:


> singhbj ji
> 
> Are you suggesting that besides Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru ji asked to accept second Guru ? I mean bani of Dasam Granth to be as econd Guru of Sikhs? Please clarify it.


 
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

One cannot be a SINGH unless one takes Amrit (Khande di pahul). Moreso one who doesnot take Amrit and follow Rehit Maryada (Code of conduct) is not a SIKH of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

rehinee rehai soee sikh maeraa || 
ouh t(h)aakur mai ous kaa chaeraa ||
rehith binaa(n) nehi sikh kehaavai || 
rehith binaa(n) dhar chottaa(n) khaavai || 
rehith binaa(n) sukh kabahu(n) n lehae ||
thaa(n) thae rehith s dhrirr kar rehai || 
khhaalasaa khhaas kehaavai soee jaa(n) kae hiradhae bharam n hoee || 
bharam bhaekh thae rehai niaaraa so khhaalas sathiguroo hamaaraa ||

Source: Rehat Nama in Amrit Keertan-1014

Now if you believe in Ardaas, which was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. 
The begining of Chandi di Var forms the begining of the Ardas:
"Sri Bhagauti ji Sahai, Var Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki, Patshah Dasveen, Pritham Bhagauti Simar ke, Guru Nanak Layee Dihaea....................................
Tegh Bahadur simriye ghar nau nidh aaveh dhae sabh thain hoye sahae."

The addition of Guru Gobind Singh ji's name and Guru Granth Sahib jeeo name was added by Khalsa Panth along with the rest of the Ardaas.

Now question arises if you don't recognise & follow Guru Gobind Singh ji's teachings and Code of conduct. Than i don't see how one's Ardaas will ever get acceptance ! 

For one to become a Khalsa (pure) "Saint+Soldier", Gurbani of pargat Guru's and following Rehit is a must. It is mandatory that a SINGH should read Nitnem which includes Guru Gobind Singh ji's Bani's.

Unless one obey's Guru Gobind Singh ji's Hukum one is a fake or paper Lion !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## pk70 (Apr 16, 2008)

singhbj said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> One cannot be a SINGH unless one takes Amrit (Khande di pahul). Moreso one who doesnot take Amrit and follow Rehit Maryada (Code of conduct) is not a SIKH of Guru Gobind Singh ji.
> ...



*Singhbj ji

Humbly I have to say that your declaration about a Sikh needs to be debated.
In that context, here are a few examples with a record in History.
Bhai Nand Lal ji whose writings are revered by Sikhs never became amritdhari Sikh. Why Dasmesh Pita honored him as a Sikh with  a sword of pen? How todays Sikhs can forgot that historical truth?
Bhai Ghannyaa was also applauded by our Reverend Guru, Why was he not made Ghanyeea  Singh? You know Guru ji loved him as a true sikh!
Only these two instances put a doubt on your declaration about being Sikhs.
Why followers of a Guru with ocean like heart show so small hearts?
I am amritdhari Sikh; however,being amritdhari  makes me more open about being A Sikh. All people who strictly believe in Guru Granth Sahib ji only and live according to its teachings are  also SIKHS. 

Second, question was " Are you are suggesting that a second Guru should be bani of Dasam Granth?" You started a different subject. Please answer it fairly.
rgds
*


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## mkm (Apr 16, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Mkm Jee!
> 
> Quote "Are you suggesting that since"Guru manyo Granth" is not in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhs should not believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Shabad Guru?"
> ...


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Mkm Jee!

Your name may be another mask belonging to the person of the same group as pk70.

Quote "O.K, If that is not from Guru Gobind Singh, whom Guru ji appointed GURU?"
The right question is 'O.K., If that is not from Guru Gobind Singh, from whom it is?'
The sentence 'Guru maanyo Granth' is from Bhai Prahlaad Jee.

This is the answer of your question 'whom Guru ji appointed GURU?'
Guru Jee has written that true Guru is the Sabad Guru. God appointed it so.

Quote "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the present Guru of Sikhs giving true messages from the Gurus
O.K, if above statement is right, who told the Sikhs that Shri Guru Granth is Guru if Guru Gobind Singh ji didnt as per your above statement ?( You say "Guru Mannyo Granth" didnt came from Guru Gobind Singh) "

Guru Gobind Singh Jee under His vigilance compiled Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and got it written in His presence. The true Gurus wanted people to receive first and ever Guidance from Him. That is why Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee is the present Guru.
The same Guru writes that by reading a Granth one does not receive true Naam Sabad.

Quote "O.K, seek shabad Guru is a suggestion from Shri Guru Granth Sahib, seek shabad Guru from whom?"
One receives true Naam Sabad from the true Guru, SaaDhoo or the true Saint. I have heard Gurdev singing this many hundred times.

Quote "I am not as knowledgeable as you are, but Sikhs dont hang on to Gurus only, they love kirtan, naam simran, why are you saying that?"
What Sikhs know are all wall hangings, in my observation.
True Sabad Guru and its Gur (Wisdom) are above all what Sikhs have learnt as rituals.

Quote "Here you are saying now that Shri Guru Granth Sahib is suggesting to receive Shabad Guru, it is contradiction."
For me it is clear like crystal. Please come to know true Naam Sabad. Contradictions have no place there.

Quote "There is a sect Naamdhari, they dont believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Guru since they have made a living Guru . . ."
Sorry. I do not know anyone from them.

Quote " . . . but Sikhs have a Shabad Guru known as Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji, A Sikh should not make such a disgraceful statement towards Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji."
*Sabad Guru is not the printed matter. This is where Sick Baabaas and preachers have mislead Sikhs.*
Once a person receives the true Sabad he realizes what is Grace and respect of even the written statements from the Gurus.

Quote "Sir ji, babaas and preachers are not what here is being discussed, bringing them here unnecessary will create confusion."
I tried to bring this in limelight because all Baabaas and preachers I met, up to now consented that they were searching for the true Naam Sabad also. They never dared to say this on stages though.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Apr 17, 2008)

Dear Balibir Singh ji 

Satsrikal!

I want to thanks you for bringing up yet another very good post.

Its difficult for me to speak about others in a sense what they think about SGGS or True Guru  But I can say about myself and few of my friends with whom I intereact  that we understand that the TRUE GURU that can put to end this evergoing search for truth to end is indeed Shabad Guru

But the trouble does not end here Infact it starts here!. I have lived in various places and mostly in Punjab so the moment you utter the word GURU and NAAM  there pop up dozen of people who will say we have true Guru and you can try taking NAAM from him . I am just stating how I come acroos things here in punjab not being funny or sarcistic  but even the understanding that you need true Shabad Guru /NAAM  has not been enough for me and many like me ! Infact there are so many shops that promose the NAAM in punjab ( both realted to SIKH , HINDU AND MISc. sectors) that if I start going to each one of then to try all of them to find a real one their is preety good chance that this serach will outlast my life time ( I am 28 yrs and going by avg. male age in India Approx 30 yrs max lest!!)

So yes I admit that this is painful to be in such state for many and I sincerely wish exactly what you have written





> Please come to know true Naam Sabad. No one may need to read anymore Balbir Singh's posts.



As I have been raeding your post and do find them very stimulating for a cause .I wish this search is competed .


AlsO I want to mention that I have understood this fact clearly that PREACHER and BABA that we see in Pandals and Meetings in Gurdwara have hardly anything to offer but the confusion!!!  BUT...... I also think that what you are saying about seeking and begging NAAM from Sadhoos /TRue Saint  will be equally confusing as there are literally Hundereds of them in Punjab Only. May be I am wrong here but this is what I felt so I wrote it 

Thanks again for your posts that make such a stir in my counciousness  that I have to write again on this forum  which I am not doing from sometime !


Jatinder Singh


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## singhbj (Apr 17, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Singhbj ji*
> 
> *Humbly I have to say that your declaration about a Sikh needs to be debated.*
> *In that context, here are a few examples with a record in History.*
> ...


 
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

*Bhai Nand Singh Ji*


Before meeting Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Bhai Sahib was known as Naib Subedar of Multan, and also as Mir Munshi of Aurangzeb's heir to the throne, Bhadur Shah.. To Sikhs he has been popularly known as Bhai Nand Lal Ji (Goya). Born in 1633 at Ghazni, Bhai Sahib became a great Persian poet and was strongly influenced by Rumi and Hafiz, whom he frequently quotes. In 1682, after his journey from Multan to Amritsar, he stopped over in Anandpur Sahib to have the Blessed Darshan of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. . He immediately received "Gurdikhya" (Charn-Amrit), and became one of Guru Sahib's most devoted disciples and a Poet Laureate of His Darbar. In 1699, Bhai Sahib along with thousands of others took Khanday-Ki-Pahul (Baptism of the Double-Edged Sword), which had replaced the Charan-Amrit Ceremony. From then on he was known as *Bhai Nand Singh Ji.* Bhai Sahib left this world in 1705. Bhai Sahib Ji was well rehe{censored}d in Arabic and Farsi. His writings are given the utmost respect by the Khalsa Panth.. Bhai Sahib's exemplary writings include : (1) Zindagi-Namah (2) TousiFaushnah (3) GanjNamah (4) Joti-Vikash (5) Divan-Goa-h (6) Insha Datoor (7) Arzul-Ilfaaz (8) Khatt-Mah .

Source: THE UNIQUE SPIRIT OF SIKHSIM

Guru Gobind Singh ji asked for volunteer's who would give their head for Guru.
Only the Punj Piyaras (beloved ones) loved Guru Sahib more than life itself obeyed Hukum. This clearly shows out of the hundred thousand congregation
present at Anandpur Sahib on Vaisakhi of year 1699 only Five became Piyaras, the bravest & most devoted.

After administring baptism, the Guru stood before these five beloved ones and requested them to baptise him in the same manner. They pleaded their unfitness for such a performance. The Guru replied that he was not superior to his devoted disciples. The Guru said "The Khalsa is the Guru and the Guru is the Khalsa. There is no difference between me and you." They baptised him, everyone of the five giving one palmful of nectar and sprinkling it on his head and face turn by turn. He added Singh to his own name in place of Rai and henceforth came to be called Gobind Singh. 

Now if Guru Gobind Singh ji recognised the need of taking Khande di pahul then there are no doubts !

"live according to *it's* teaching are Sikhs" - pk70
This shows how much respect you have for living Guru Granth Sahib jeeo .

Without respect there is no blessing !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## mkm (Apr 17, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Mkm Jee!
> 
> Your name may be another mask belonging to the person of the same group as pk70.
> ...


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

Balbir ji and correspondents in this thread

Later tonight I am going to make a complete list of all of respected Balbir's statements in this thread so that, Balibir ji, we can take a close look at what your central arguments appear to be. I will post all of this. Maybe we can see what you are saying more clearly.

We have been going around in circles. Some members are becoming frustrated by this because no one can figure out why you say what you say. When they try to get clarification, your message appears to turn against them.

mkm ji

Please do not get worked up. Your frustration is understandable. However in the end you are the one who will end up feeling cheated.  You know what I am talking about. Some times forum discussions have this effect. I have been there.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 17, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Mkm Jee!

Quote "I asked you questions and you have attached my name with PR70. I read PK70 posts but am told by you only that there is PK70 group."
It does not matter how many masks a person wears. One recognizes the pudding head by his actions.
Quote "Here is an other simple question judge ji, does after seeking Naam from your shabad guru one starts attacking others personally if they ask any question?"
Spiritually Orphanage children have been trying it since long to receive Naam or, in other words, The True Sabad from your preachers and Baabaas.
One does not receive Naam from your Sabad Guru either. Naam is Sabad Guru.
Your question proves how lost the so-called Sikh seekers are? Thanks to your Baabaas.

Quote "So Sikhs believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, why to even bother debate the vaak" Guru mannyo Granth"?"
Every true Sikh deserves Truth. True seekers want to know this also. Why nobody talks truth at Gurdwaaraa stages?
Wisdom of Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee is to enliven, not to believe.

Balbir Singh "Guru Jee has written that true Guru is the Sabad Guru. God appointed it so."
Mkm "Kindly explain us where it is written by Guru Gobind Singh Jee and said it is appointed by God, I will be thankful."
These are not my words and thoughts. From where one learns such things?

Balbir Singh "The same Guru writes that by reading a Granth one does not receive true Naam Sabad."
Mkm "Kindly give a quote where Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote that by reading Shri Guru Granth Sahib jee one does not receive true Naam Shabad."
Please do not change my statements.
The true Guru wrote, for example  pwTu pVY nw bUJeI ByKI Brim Bulwie ] SGGS 66-18.

This is another example.

Ktu krmw Aru Awsxu DoqI ]  BwgiT igRih pVY inq poQI ] 
mwlw PyrY mMgY ibBUq ]  ieh ibiD koie n qirE mIq ]3]  SGGS 888-3

Quote "You should give valid quotes who are those saad or saint if Sikhs cannot receive Naam from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee?"
Please throw away the chaff (preachers) from mind and read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee again.

Balbir Singh "What Sikhs know are all wall hangings, in my observation."
Mkm "Only your observation is not enough to judge the whole community."
Rarely someone comes to the right place and receives the wisdom of Naam. Most of the Sansaarees spend life observing wall hangings. Preachers provide them extra assistance.

Quote "I was thinking we are discussing Guru , Shabad Guru not the rituals?"
The true Sikh is one who has received true Naam Sabad. Bhaysdhaaree Sikhs are busy with empty rituals.

Quote "You are saying please" come to know true Naam Shabad" but never explain it. Explain it please if you know, now I doubt you know.
Please do not live in doubts further.

Mkm "There is a sect Naamdhari, they dont believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a Guru since they have made a living Guru . . ."
Balbir Singh "Sorry. I do not know anyone from them." 
Mkm "I didnt say that you knew them, what I meant that they do not believe in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee as Guru but rather worship a human."
What have those achieved who only believe in Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee?
Better follow Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and receive true Naam Sabad.

Quote "How dare you call Shri Guru Granth Sahib jee a printed matter?"
How do fanatics know Him otherwise?

Quote "Calling others Sick babas but statements you make are sickening."
God has preplanned full support including medicine for all Jeevs. Please feel better.

Quote "Sikhs experience all ten Gurus presence in Guru Granth Sahib jee and revere it high."
I realize God in these messages.

Quote "Nations fight over a flag. Because Flag represents a nation, they dont call it a piece of cloth. Shri Guru Granth Sahib jee represents all Gurus and all wisdom Sikhs needs to have."
Why millions of Sikhs are seeking and searching Sabad Guru still?

Quote "What do you have? A habit of making low class derogatory statements about Guru of Sikhs."
Please do not play dirty politics here. My critic is of fake Baabaas, Preachers and Translators.
For my reverend Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee I have highest regards and respect.

Quote "After reading above statement about Shri Guru Granth Sahib jee, I doubt there is any truth in your statements."
Some are never able to feel good luck.

Quote "Why couldnt you enlighten them ?"
All is happening in God's Will.

**************

*The prime message from the true Gurus is JAP of Naam, the true Sabad.*


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

Balbir ji, Please take a look at what you are doing and saying. Then we can ask ourselves why some members are frustrated and why some are more than frustrated.



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Mkm Jee!
> 
> Quote "I asked you questions and you have attached my name with PR70. I read PK70 posts but am told by you only that there is PK70 group."
> ...


*
My comments are as a participant. I recuse myself as a moderator. But another moderator has already requested that you and others turn down the heat. 
*


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 17, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Perhaps moderating suits, your nature better.

My statements are not personal. Those are general as I have observed. An individual should not take it personally either.
Surely one has the right to disagree but when a participant writes something totally opposite of Guru's statement, we should discuss it. 
I may try this with softer words.

Quote "If this is your message then why are you posting in forums? That is why I asked you before, Why did you start a thread about Sikhs and Guru and then turn around and tell us not to discuss these points because all we should be doing is jap? Since everything we read and hear is false, we should jap. Some of us jap, some discuss, and some of us jap and discuss. What are you trying to say?"

Should participants stop discussing and referring the true Gurus because they have already written everything important? 
Perhaps some may prefer to discuss other writers like many preachers are doing in Gurdwaaraas.

**************

Can someone please refer one Vaak from the true Gurus that explains?  One receives True Sabad or Naam through a Granth?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

Balbir ji

When you started the thread this is the question you posed. 

_ Do Sikhs need another Guru than the true Sabad Guru? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also suggests the same Sabad Guru.
What are your views? Please express it._

To me this sounds as if you were interested in what people thought and had to say. It sounded as if you were interested in a discussion. 

Nine posts followed in which every single individual said that Sri Guru Granth Sahib was Guru and there was no need for another Guru. 

But did you really want to have a discussion? You have either directly stated, or you have implied, that various individuals are following gurus, preachers, baabaas, recordings, and written copies of SGGS. Because of this they are being misled by these same gurus, preachers, baabaas, recordings and written copies of SGGS. We cannot tell who exactly is being mislead. And we cannot tell who exactly is misleading them. It is as you say very "general." 

Balbir ji, you have said that your main message is *jap. *But this is what you have had to say more than anything else in the thread.
_
Post 12

I do not know which Guru has said so. Is he your Guru who has said so? I have not found this Vaak in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Post 29

God's Grace falls on a person when he receives true Naam Sabad and comes to know its Simran.
This is the difference. All the Gurus say that the Sabad Guru and God are the same.
The fake Baabaas but say that God and the printed material bounded are the same.

This is another question why these preachers are not able to transfer the wisdom of true Sabad.

Does anyone know a Baabaa who can share the Godly wisdom of Naam or true Sabad with seekers?

Sikhs are tamed to believe that the message 'Guru manyo Granth' is from Guru Gobind Singh Jee. This is a false information and misleading.
Truthful Sikhs deserve truth.

Not even once the true Gurus asked people to hang on them or their recorded messages and feel that they have reached the Sabad Guru.

I am not asking anyone to seek and meet a fake Baabaa whom Gurdwaaraa committees are inviting for misleading Parchaars. I am trying to aware the readers to seek and receive the true Sabad Guru.

Please do not let someone cheat your soul listening, the living Baabaa sitting beside the true Guru.

post 33

Surely one can read and do vichaar on the world literature of his choice. Why do they but establish this business in Gurdwaaraas besides Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee? Why they divert Sikhs to other directions than the true Guru? Have they become spiritually so poor that topics from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee are completed? Is the beant (infinite) Keertan of Hari Sabad over? Has it begun at all in a so-called Sikh of the present time?

The impulse is to improve true spiritual growth with right practices of an individual, not the Guru.
Preachers have always been worried about their business.
God sends true Gurus on earth to create true Sikhs (learners of true Naam).

Some Baabaas claim to have met Guru Naanak Jee.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the present Guru of Sikhs. Should Sikhs follow their present Guru or fake Baabaas and preachers who are teaching Sikhs from other writers?
Please clear your stand first. (post 18)
May I ask if someone has met Baabaa Guru Granth Saahib Jee and received the wisdom of true Naam Sabad?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib's translators and their communicators have proven that they have not.

My curiosity is to know why these preachers are leading Sikhs away from their Sabad Guru, suggested by the true Gurus innumerable times. (also post 18)

The reverend Guru's first message is JAP. Today Sikhs have learnt everything else than what true Guru suggests, from whom?

Post 37

Sabad Guru is not the printed matter. This is where Sick Baabaas and preachers have mislead Sikhs.
Once a person receives the true Sabad he realizes what is Grace and respect of even the written statements from the Gurus.

I tried to bring this in limelight because all Baabaas and preachers I met, up to now consented that they were searching for the true Naam Sabad also. They never dared to say this on stages though.

Post 39

Spiritually Orphanage children have been trying it since long to receive Naam or, in other words, The True Sabad from your preachers and Baabaas.
One does not receive Naam from your Sabad Guru either. Naam is Sabad Guru.
Your question proves how lost the so-called Sikh seekers are? Thanks to your Baabaas.

Every true Sikh deserves Truth. True seekers want to know this also. Why nobody talks truth at Gurdwaaraa stages?
Wisdom of Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee is to enliven, not to believe.

Please throw away the chaff (preachers) from mind and read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee again.

Please do not play dirty politics here. My critic is of fake Baabaas, Preachers and Translators.
For my reverend Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee I have highest regards and respect.

Post 44

__ Perhaps some may prefer to discuss other writers like many preachers are doing in Gurdwaaraas.
_ 
As I said earlier, we do not know exactly who the gurus, preachers, baabaas are. They are out there it appears in large numbers. Whoever they are; they are fakes; they are unable to transfer the wisdom of the true shabad; they give out false information; they are asking people to hang on recorded messages; they are cheating souls; they are diverting people and they are spiritually poor; they are unable to share wisdom; they are concerned about business; they have people reading other writings (which ones you don’t tell us); they are teaching everything except what they should be teaching; and they are sick. 

You keep saying this over and over. Here and elsewhere in the forum. Some would say these are scare tactics. Others might say that you are doing a public service by alerting us. At what point do we begin the discussion?

If you want to have a discussion, as you say you do, then others have to have a voice, and not wait to be told they are victims of false baabaas, and so forth. 

If listening to recordings is a misleading thing, why do you have recordings on your web site?

You want us to hear Guruji singing. That is fine. But it won’t happen on the Internet. 

Maybe you are making a theological point--- that SGGS is not Guru, rather the Shabad is Guru.  This argument has been and is taking place in several places on SPN.

But most important – no one in this thread has said they are a follower of a Baabaa etc.  So why are you speaking as if we are being mislead by individuals who are poor,  sick and diverting us from jap?* IMHO *This is not what is diverting us from jap.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 18, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee is regularly giving the message to receive Naam Sabad and its Simran or Jap.
I have traveled in many countries. I visited the Gurdwaaraas there and did not come to know one Sikh who did not complain. Those thirsty souls are increasing in number every day. They miss the wisdom of true Naam Sabad. They get frustrated when they meet the next preacher who again suggests them a Paath (reading) of Hymns from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee. The unsatisfied seekers try every technique these Baabaas teach them but nothing works. I am talking about People who visit Gurdwaaraas.

I was in Delhi few days back. A group of people told me that a Baabaa came to their house and gave them a technique. He asked them to speak 'Waah' while inhaling and 'Guru' while exhaling. They were doing this for some months till someone raised a question who stopped doing this suddenly. He said he was no more interested inhaling 'Waah' (praise) but throwing 'Guru' out from him. He wanted that he could breathe in the true Guru who resides for always in him.

Some others told me they were happy to visit Gurdwaaraa on Sundays where they were having some social gathering and cultural programmes.

Who does not know this situation among Sikhs? My strong wish is to see the old, new and coming generation progressing in spiritual as well in worldly matters. It is just not possible with the ways they are preparing preachers, in my observation.

My questions are not to tease anybody.

**************

These are few words on this topic.

The true Guru is HE,  whom Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and all the Gurus call 'True Guru' and that is Sabad Guru.
True Guru is not that whom one can print, read and he starts working. If this would work then the labor, working on the printing machine or the tape recorder, would get Muktee first.

Preachers are anyway working hard to teach techniques. Does that really work? Where is the wisdom of the Sabad Guru? Please do not try to convince me that they print it in a book to receive. I only have to imagine it, believe it, own it, read it and respect it and the Book transfers it.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Apr 18, 2008)

Dear Balbir Singh Ji 

Satsriakal!


I had written post after reading your post on this topic .
I presume you might have missed it in this busy forum so thought of reminding you in case you missed it .



http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/21064-do-sikhs-need-another-guru.html#post77587

If you have read it already than I apologise for interupting you 



Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## mkm (Apr 18, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Mkm Jee!
> 
> 
> ...


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## mkm (Apr 18, 2008)

Respected aad ji

Your work is appreciable, you have put all Balbir singh's statements together so that can all can understand what he is up to. Unlike him, it was done with a respectful behaviour.
You have shown the mirror, a few try to analyze self after seeing the mirror.
By the way I am a female, living in Chandigarh


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## Astroboy (Apr 18, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Can someone please refer one Vaak from the true Gurus that explains? One receives True Sabad or Naam through a Granth?
> 
> Balbir Singh


 
Let me give you an analogy Balbir Singh Ji.

Kauda Rakshash fell on Guru Nanak's feet. Why ? Was it because he saw Guru Nanak's swaroop (Physical body) and instantly recognised him ? The answer is No. 
He asked for Guru Ji's forgiveness when he heard Guru Ji's wisdom. This same wisdom of all the Guru Jees are in SGGS. Do Sikhs need another Guru ? Answer is No.

Balbir Singh Ji, in the past you have started many threads with funny titles e.g. Who's the Mother of Waheguru. I won't say that you haven't changed because you have. I might have to close this thread because you are found wanting by spreading negativity under the guise of helping the readers.
*Give me an authentic reason why I shouldn't close this thread and allow it to be continued.* 




~ namjap ~


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 18, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Mkm Jee!

Such a long post but not one word is in this for the true Sabad Guru.
Please forget Balbir Singh and say something about your experience with the Sabad Guru. God and Sabad Guru are the same. Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and all the true Gurus also have full praise for the Sabad Guru. The blessed ones receive the Sabad Guru in present life. They do not need another Guru anymore.

I have seen lost creatures carrying a copy of the printed book and searching for the Sabad Guru.

Sabad Guru is the first and ultimate Guru. 

**************

Namjap Jee!
Truth is not easy to swallow, specially for those whose mouth is full of lies.

I have hopes that someone from Sikhs would participate and confirm the Godly message from the Gurus. Perhaps no one of your Baabaas knows what is the Sabad Guru. 
Some posters have tried their best to divert the topic vainly. Can they really hide ignorance? 

Ignorance is an attribute of Mayic Sansaar. That is why Sansaar is visible.
God is invisible. God is Wisdom.

Have the moderators given up the hopes that a participant may say something about the true Naam Sabad? They may close the thread.

I love waiting for the Guru to say something more about the Sabad Guru.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Apr 19, 2008)

Dear Balbir Singh ji 


Satsriakal!



> I have hopes that someone from Sikhs would participate and confirm the Godly message from the Gurus. Perhaps no one of your Baabaas knows what is the Sabad Guru.
> Some posters have tried their best to divert the topic vainly. Can they really hide ignorance


?


It seesm You are too busy to notice anything else beside messages of MKM ,PK70 


Infact I have written twice reagarding your post and raised queries reagrding you suggestions 




http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...html#post77587 (Do Sikhs need another Guru?)


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/21064-do-sikhs-need-another-guru-2.html#post77656
BUT I fail to attract your attraction to those . 

Is something sansaric also playing here that dont let you cant notice anything else but the posts by  MKM and PK70??



Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 19, 2008)

mkm said:


> Respected aad ji
> 
> By the way I am a female, living in Chandigarh



Most respected mkm ji, 

I am honored to meet you. You are very knowledgeable about  Gurbani and Gurmat, someone to learn from. And from Chandigarh  Very cool! I have never visited Chandigarh, but everything I read says that you are in a place thriving with spiritual and intellectual pursuits. This is my pleasrue.  Back to you.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Jatinder Singh Jee!

The corner you have given me in your heart is a palace for me. Right now I am trying to decorate it for the right ceremony.
Thanks.

Balbir Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 20, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Jatinder Singh Jee!
> 
> The corner you have given me in your heart is a palace for me. Right now I am trying to decorate it for the right ceremony.
> ...



A true Sadhu/Gurmukh would have responded here as " ....do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss the heavenly glory". Why does not a Sadhu/Gurmukh not want to meet every "Tom, **** and Harry" it is simply because he does not have the time to waste. Wasted time is like a living hell because it detracts the spiritualist from his beloved Lord. He is not interested in creating personal relationships or be in a company where praises are showered at him. It is only the "bhekhey" that seek audiences.

Guru Amardas ji, in Anand Sahib tells us "Anghron jin ka moh tutta TIN KA SHABAD sachey sawaria". It is renunciation both inwards and outwards that is the KEY to spirituality. This is what leads one to the living death. This is the path of Guru Nanak and Sikhism.

In answer to the foolish question in the thread "You are not even listening to the Gurus you have, what would a new Guru do for you that the previous have not done". 
"Guru bechara kya karey, jab sikhon mein chook". It is the student that is at fault and not the Guru. Dr Khalsa ji, Read and understand * Anand  Sahib*.  It contains is the philosophy of a sachiara. All that, that is said by others is false. That  includes  myself. Why?  Because  what you will discover within yourself will be the TRUTH.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Apr 20, 2008)

> n answer to the foolish question in the thread "You are not even listening to the Gurus you have, what would a new Guru do for you that the previous have not done".
> "Guru bechara kya karey, jab sikhon mein chook". It is the student that is at fault and not the Guru. Dr Khalsa ji, Read and understand * Anand  Sahib*. It contains is the philosophy of a sachiara. All that, that is said by others is false. That includes myself. Why? Because what you will discover within yourself will be the TRUTH.
> 
> ekmusafir_ajnabi



Thanks for pointing out!


i will definately keen your words in mind and will conc on Anand sahib for help.

also this statement of yours I will always keepin mind



> Because  what you will discover within yourself will be the TRUTH.



Thanks for your concern


Jatinder SIngh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 20, 2008)

Sau hath rassa sireh teh ganddh - one hundred yards of string..and right at its end is the knot !!!
The "printed matter" is just the MEDIUM. Today the same Divine Message can be had thru the internet sites via download/realplayer audios.CDs/DVD/BluRay/hard diks/floppies..flash cards..memory sticks.. From 1469-1708 we had this same Divine Message thru the Living Human dehs of the Ten Gurus ( who collected the same message from various sants like bhagat kabir Ji, ravidass ji,Ramandand Ji, Namdev Ji, Sheikh farid Ji..bhatts, and many others and put it together in one place in the SGGS ).
Would Bhai Gurdass Ji have even dreamt about todays MEDIUMS when he was scribing the AAD Granth in front of Guru arjun Ji in 1660's ? Can anyone among us say with certainty what will be the MEDIUM in the next 1000 Years... Paper might even go out of Fashion real soon as we cut down forests and finish off all our timber - but will that mean that the DIVINE MESSAGE will be out of fashion ?? Simply becasue its not "printed matter" ?? No of course NOT.
The SHABAD GURU..the WORD has always been and will always BE..we are humans and of necessity this "Shabd Guru" has to be channeld to us thru a MEDIUM we can understand and comprehend...language/vocabulary/grammar rules/semantics/sounds/metaphors/scripts ALL "have their limitations" BUT our GURUS managed to fit it all into a medium we can understand and comprehend..of course being of this EARTH..its Not PERFECT as SHABAD GURU IS..BUT all importantly this"imperfection" only goes so far as the MEDIUM...it doesnt extend to the DIVINE MESSAGE. Thus the "paper..for example can get wet and break down..can get old and discoloured...can tear or be burnt in a fire...BUT NOT THE DIVINE MESSAGE !!
From this it is naturally to be followed that the REAL SATKAAR of the Divine Message is to READ..VICHAAR...and Live our lives accordingly...Mould our own lives to GURBANI is truly respecting the GURU. There is no need for anyone else..baba/priest/jathedar/gyani/granthi/living guru whispering in your ear..we are to Discover within ourselves our MOOL..the ROOT and meet the SAADH, the Brahmgyani..the Gyani..the GURMUKH...the SANT that is ALREADY DEEP WITHIN US.  The GRANTH ( referred to as mere "printed matter" by some ) is the Master Architectural-Plan so to speak on which we are to base/build/construct our palace..any questions and we can ask the Master Architect already living within us...can anything be simpler than that ??
Love and respect towards all..Sarbatt da Bhalla..

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Astroboy (Apr 20, 2008)

Gyani Ji,

Your comments have hit the strings of the heart within. Appreciate your free flow of gian.
YouTube - The Life of Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Part 2.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 20, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee!

Quote "The "printed matter" is just the MEDIUM. Today the same Divine Message can be had thru the internet sites via download/realplayer audios.CDs/DVD/BluRay/hard diks/floppies..flash cards..memory sticks.. From 1469-1708 we had this same Divine Message thru the Living Human dehs of the Ten Gurus ( who collected the same message from various sants like bhagat kabir Ji, ravidass ji,Ramandand Ji, Namdev Ji, Sheikh farid Ji..bhatts, and many others and put it together in one place in the SGGS )."
It is sounding great that some have understood it.

Quote "Can anyone among us say with certainty what will be the MEDIUM in the next 1000 Years... Paper might even go out of Fashion real soon as we cut down forests and finish off all our timber - but will that mean that the DIVINE MESSAGE will be out of fashion ?? Simply becasue its not "printed matter" ?? No of course NOT."
Hopes and desires give a Jeev rebirth, not only up to one thousand years.
Better come to know Truth of Naam Sabad in this life, if possible right now.

Quote "The SHABAD GURU..the WORD has always been and will always BE..we are humans and of necessity this "Shabd Guru" has to be channeld to us thru a MEDIUM . . ."
This medium is not mind, understanding, language, vocabulary or grammar.
This medium is the true Guroo, SaaDhoo or the true Saint.

Quote "From this it is naturally to be followed that the REAL SATKAAR of the Divine Message is to READ..VICHAAR...and Live our lives accordingly...Mould our own lives to GURBANI is truly respecting the GURU."
Please do not talk like a teacher. How can one follow GURBAANEE when the translations in Punjaabee are not correct even?

Quote "we are to Discover within ourselves our MOOL..the ROOT and meet the SAADH, the Brahmgyani..the Gyani..the GURMUKH...the SANT that is ALREADY DEEP WITHIN US."
That is interesting. May I ask why the Sabad Guru is still outside?

Quote "The GRANTH ( referred to as mere "printed matter" by some ) is the Master Architectural-Plan so to speak on which we are to base/build/construct our palace..any questions and we can ask the Master Architect already living within us."
Why people are not asking the Master what is the true Sabad?

Quote "can anything be simpler than that ??"
You have tried it best.


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (Apr 20, 2008)

Quote "we are to Discover within ourselves our MOOL..the ROOT and meet the SAADH, the Brahmgyani..the Gyani..the GURMUKH...the SANT that is ALREADY DEEP WITHIN US."
That is interesting. May I ask *why the Sabad Guru is still outside?*

Balbir Singh Ji,

This is something even I want to know - why are we saying that Shabad Guru is on the outside when SGGS says it is in the inside.

ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अनहता सबद वाजंत भेरी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Anhaṯā sabaḏ vājanṯ bẖėrī. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
The Unstruck Sound-current of the *Shabad* is the vibration of the temple drums. ||1||Pause||
*Guru Nanak Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
अनहद सबदि सुहावणे पाईऐ गुर वीचारि ॥२॥
Anhaḏ sabaḏ suhāvaṇė pā&shy;ī&shy;ai gur vīcẖār. ||2||
The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the *Shabad* is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## spnadmin (Apr 20, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Mould our own lives to GURBANI is truly respecting the GURU. There is no need for anyone else..baba/priest/jathedar/gyani/granthi/living guru whispering in your ear..we are to Discover within ourselves our MOOL..the ROOT and meet the SAADH, the Brahmgyani..the Gyani..the GURMUKH...the SANT that is ALREADY DEEP WITHIN US.  The GRANTH ( referred to as mere "printed matter" by some ) is the Master Architectural-Plan so to speak on which we are to base/build/construct our palace..any questions and we can ask the Master Architect already living within us...can anything be simpler than that ??
> Love and respect towards all..Sarbatt da Bhalla..
> 
> Gyani jarnail Singh



This is why we should not worry about anything. This is what we need to remember. And this is what is hard. But we try.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 20, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Namjap Jee!

Wisdom (Gur) Prasaad is Jap. The state described by Guru Naanak Dev Jee Anhqw sbd vwjMq ByrI ]1] rhwau ] is the result of true Jap.
Gurdev has never said that one has already Jap within. Why the need of Sabad when Jap is already inside?

This wonderful Vaak also explains the same.
Anhd sbid suhwvxy pweIAY gur vIcwir ]

These are the attributes of Sabad. Sabad is pleasent. Sabad is boundryless. How to contemplate on it? This wisdom (Gur) is received first.

**************

Come to know true Sabad. All questions about Sabad disappear then.


Balbir Singh


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## mkm (Apr 20, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Most respected mkm ji,
> 
> I am honored to meet you. You are very knowledgeable about  Gurbani and Gurmat, someone to learn from. And from Chandigarh  Very cool! I have never visited Chandigarh, but everything I read says that you are in a place thriving with spiritual and intellectual pursuits. This is my pleasrue.  Back to you.



Very Respected aad0002 Ji,

Kindly accept  my thanks for such a compliment though deep down I feel I am not that much worth. Every day I take a Shabad along with Dr Sahib Singh's jian's interpretation and try to understand Guru message. I am working very hard to improve myself. I am learner from every one. My husband says" Go out and see, GOD  has made others for us to learn some thing so that we can turn back to HIM."  That statement helps me a lot when every day I walk out.
Chandigarh is nice city, cleaner, safer than other cities and  governed nicely, there are Gurudawaras to visit to have Hukmnama for the day. Thanks


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 21, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

This is a memoir from my childhood. 

In the neighborhood Mrs. Singh arranged a Keertan Party. Raagee Jee started singing 'Guru Naanak mayray Saa-iN-aa'. Chattering among ladies but went on without a pause. Raagee Jee continued singing the next line 'asee raolaa paavan aa-iN-aa'.
The ladies went on singing the chorus line till someone started laughing louder.

I just remembered this while reading the post from Mkm Jee. 

Who is seeking the Sabad Guru? Who is enjoying information on Sabad Guru?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 21, 2008)

Balbir ji


I have disagreed with your ideas -- sometimes I disagree. But that doesn't mean that I don't see the person that you are. Your story had me laughing -- sometimes the sound of ladies chattering is so loud  in the back of gurdwara that is sounds like the deafening chirps of frogs in the thousands on a sand dune near the ocean at night. But it is all his play. This is all His creation.

So forgive the chatter.  I thank you for the opportunity to have a discussion.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 21, 2008)

Balbir Jis childhood memoir is 110% correct. in my teens ( when i regularly attended Akhand paaths as pathi..but didnt have much "gyan"... I once foolishly made a bet with a fellow student that I could say the words..TARZAN HAS COME..TARZAN and JANE HAVE COME..waaah waah woooh... FIVE times durign my Raol to a Full House Gurdwara sangat on the PA System and NOT a single soul would notice. He was to pay me Singapore Dollars250 if no oen protested and i would pay him $500 and would of course get pesh before the Panj/even get  a beating for disrespect of holy akhand paath. I WON THE BET. The Raol was about Maru Sohilay...8 pm and FULL HOUSE in Sri guru Singh Sabha Gurdawra Singapore 1970.and i managed to add in the "tarzan lines five times without losing a beat....and not  a peep out of any "listeners"...shows who really listens at akhand paaths !!! I have done so many ardasses to Guru Ji to beg forgiveness..both for ME and for the Listeners....am much wiser now and Stopped going for PAID Paaths...only do Sangat paaths simply because the sangat requests and i get my favourite 2am-4am raols where i am ALONE with My GURU JI ALL the time. There shoudl be a LAW that at least FIVE listeners at every akhand paath at all times !!! All this has become empty rituals...FOKEH SIKHS do FOKEH RITUALS...
With Sorrow and regret
Gyani jarnail Singh


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