# Is The Quom In A Coma?



## spnadmin (Nov 3, 2011)

ਦੇਖੋ ਸਿੱਖੋ ਤੁਹਾਡੀ ਪੱਗ ਰੋਲ ਦਿੱਤੀ, ਹੁਣ ਤੇ ਜਾਗ ਪਵੋ
Thursday, 03 November 2011 00:00
ਭਾਵੇਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਮੂਰਤੀਪੂਜਕ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਫੋਟੋ ਦੇ ਪੁਜਾਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ, ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਇਹ ਫੋਟੋ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਣਾਈ ਗਈ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਹਰ ਸਰੂਪ ਨੂੰ ਇੱਜਤ ਮਾਣ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਾਂ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦੀ ਇੱਜ਼ਤ ਨੂੰ ਹੱਥ ਪਾਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਉਸਦਾ ਕੀ ਹਾਲ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਇਹ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਵੀ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੱਥ ਹੈ। 
ਟਿੱਪਣੀ- ਸਿੱਖੋ ਦੇਖੋ ਇੱਕ ਸੌਦਾ ਸਾਧ ਹੋਰ ਆ ਗਿਆ...ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਕੋਲੋਂ ਇੱਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੁਣ ਇੱਕ ਹੋਰ ਆ ਗਿਆ...
ਇਕ ਨਾਟਕਬਾਜ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਸਾਧ ਰਾਮਦੇਵ ਜੋ ਜਨਾਨਾ ਕੱਪੜੇ ਪਾ ਕੇ ਰਾਮ ਲੀਲਾ ਮੈਦਾਨ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਭੱਜ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ ਦੀ ਇੰਨੀ ਜੁਰੱਅਤ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਕਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ।
ਲਾਲੇਆਣਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਾਟਕਬਾਜ ਰਾਮਦੇਵ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਮਾਗਮ ਦੌਰਾਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਕੋਲ ਰੱਖੀ ਅਤੇ ਆਪ ਮੰਚ ਤੇ ਬਿਰਾਜਮਾਨ ਰਿਹਾ । ਭਾਵੇਂ ਮੀਡੀਆ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਇਸਦਾ ਨੋਟਿਸ ਲਏ ਜਾਣ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਉਥੋਂ ਹਟਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ । ਪਰੰਤੂ ਪੰਥਕ ਹਲਕਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸਦਾ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਨੋਟਿਸ ਲਿਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਕੱਲ੍ਹ ਤੋਂ ਬਠਿੰਡਾ ਵਿਖੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਕੈਂਪ ਲਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। 
ਧੰਨਵਾਦ ਸਹਿਤ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਨਿਊਜ਼ ਆਨਲਾਈਨ ਅਤੇ ਰਾਣਜੀਤ ਰਾਜੂ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਫੋਟੋ ਖਿੱਚੀ ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਧ ਦੀ ਕਰਤੂਤ ਬਾਰੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਪੰਥ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣੂ ਕਰਾਇਆ

See video and images at this link http://punjabspectrum.com/main/inde...-11-03-18-14-14&catid=93:headlines&Itemid=101


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## spnadmin (Nov 3, 2011)

English synopsis by Gyani Jarnail Singh who forwarded the article.

Heres Bhai Ramdev seated high on stage with a PHOTO of Guru Gobind Singh ji at HIS FEET !!! (Talwandi sabo)....I beleive SIKH KAUM is in DEEP COMA !!! as this fellow who Ran away from ramlila Grounds wearing LADY CLOTHES...dares to come to Punjab and make fun of SIKHS....by stepping on their Dastaars...is still a BIG HERO to many Sikhs as is that other thuggh the BLIND one..annah the corruption fighter who is bhagwa to his toes..


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 3, 2011)

Looking from outside in it appears to be shaping up like this in India from Sikhism perspective:

*1.  BJP Block:*    RSS, BJP, Ram Dev, Anna Hazare (50%), Akalis

*2.  Congress:*    Congress, Anna Hazare (50%), Islamic Minority, Sikh (non-Akali)

Which is lesser of two Evils?  Fanatic Idiots on one side and double-crossing wolves in sheep's clothing on the other side.

Seem pretty even to me.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 4, 2011)

Ambarsariah Ji..SPOT ON.

The Blind leading the Blind ?? Or One eyed king in the land of the Blind ?? Hindu Annah..Turku Kanna...dohan te Sikh "Niyanna" !! Its such  a pity that India is being DRAGGED down by politics of the dirtiest order....its Now No. 1 for POPULATION....No. 1 for Most number of Poor people..No. 1 for Kala Dhan hoarding...what else ???Its a pity because India could be a GREAT NATION.....anytime it wishes to....but it continues its slide down the slope...with no one having the sense to stop the slide...


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 4, 2011)

If I am not mistaken, the picture of Guru Gobind Singh ji seems like a gift from some ignorant Sikh and is lying with other gifts that are piled up there. 

One can not expect any kind of respect to our Gurus from this charlatan who seems to be basking at the semi nude world gladly accepted by the Hindutva's parochial mind.

It is a shame that the ignorant Sikh Quom does not have the cajones (I forgot the word in Spanish), to boycott his arrival in Punjab.

Tejwant Singh


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## dilgeer (Nov 14, 2011)

Ambarsaria Ji..


            Khima bakshna but What you have written seems to be more fanatic. What you have to comment on Kiran Bedi, Arvind Kejriwal, Anna Hazare, Manish Sisodia from Anna Camp. Can u put any taint on them ? They have given this nation RTI which has enabled you to see the truth of Scams for BJP(Yediruppa), Congress, Akalis and all.

            I guess one must be emphasizing the fact now that Since Sikhs have already led the nation to change and to freedom then why this time so little contribution ?

            Sikhs are totally in oblivion to see what is happening around. If the courts dont give you justice for 84 riots or such events, you blame all the Hindus. Ramdev has been doing good in Yoga curing many people but since Politics is not his field of expertise, I am with you on that. But you must acknowledge that Sikhs, Muslims supoprt his cause although he has setback acting childish, even Girlish, in Ramlila Ground, that is probably lack of maturity but his motive is not bad. He talks of policies to strengthen Agriculture and removing Baniya as middleman. If Punjab Police takes turban of any Sikh, or outside Darbar Sahib, no issues. No Hindu or Muslim is getting justice here let alone Sikhs. Courts are owned by Powerful. Can u get your case against Badal, he is a Sikh ? No, he is powerful. In India, its Powerful against Powerless, NOT BAHAMANVAADI VS SIKHS. Why this does not happen in US bcoz Legal System is good and responds. What Anna Hazare or Ramdev or Ravi Shankar are doing is great and we must support them. This shall make Judicial system stronger, give you Right to recall these power hungry people and make your real servants. How are they BJP or RSS or Congress ? Was RTI a BJP Agenda ? If you believe it ,then I believe it not good for me comment any further.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 14, 2011)

Dilgeer Bhain ji sorry I am little confused with your post.  What or who is RTI?

I don't understand the following,



> What Anna Hazare or Ramdev or Ravi Shankar are doing is great and we must support them.


_What are the doing specifically for Sikhs?  I don't live in India so of course my comments need challenging and correction.

_Issues for Sikhs are either internal to Sikhism or external as to how the majority in India will absorb, allow Sikhs to co-exist, etc.  The shameful acts and sabotage continues unabated by the majority non-Sikhs towards Sikhs no matter what color or political affiliation they are.  Some do pro-actively and others do hideously through association.  If we want to make believe and assume that suddenly someone is going to help Sikhs save Sikhism or not passively or actively destroy it, then we are in La-La land.  History is a guide.  See how Punjab has been destroyed since Independence and it is foolish to think Sikhism could flourish without Sikh centric Punjab.  Unfortunately the time to save Punjab was in 1947.  So any separation and like thoughts right now are just plain not very effective so I am not that fanatic and I recognize that.No offense taken I am here to learn too.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## dilgeer (Nov 14, 2011)

Ambarsaria Ji,

Its Dilgeer Singh.

As I see it, you had put these people in BJP Block stating they are playing for BJP. Thus, my statement. You are outside india, thats fine. But ultimately, If any change this movement brings, that would affect Sikhs too. If you believe otherwise, Do tell me. I would request you to watch more on this movement, searching for Lokpal Bill, Arvind kejriwal , Anna Hazare on youtube.I hope you would be more clearer what this movement is demanding.



> Issues for Sikhs are either  internal to Sikhism or external as to how the majority in India will  absorb, allow Sikhs to co-exist, etc.  The shameful acts and sabotage  continues unabated by the majority non-Sikhs towards Sikhs no matter  what color or political affiliation they are.  Some do pro-actively and  others do hideously through association.


Singh Saab, Here we have to take direction from philosophy of GuruDev Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This World is grosser manifestation, full of imperfections. There would be difference within an individual, couple, family, Community, States, Nations. So, there would be competition. If we fail achieve what Kaum desires or injustice prevails, then we must see where we are lacking. The extent of history I have read, I see gross mistakes from our leaders, while Sikh youth paid with their lives. This loss pinches the psyche of the sikh, while a hindu witnessed their debacle. 1947 - Sikh leaders fell short of required vision, stayed selfish. People like Kartar Singh, tara Singh etc. 1966 further broke down Punjab. Akalis wanted to have state with more of Sikh population to form a government of there own. Punjabi Suba again took many sikh lives. 1984 akali and jarnail singh again not on same page. after 1984, Sikh Militant groups not on same agenda. This made it easy for intelligence agencies to infilterate these groups, while they could not identify the outsiders. Were they 'FOOLS' ? Declaration of khalistan.. again allowed forces to come into Golden temple. is there any maturity in Sikh leaders ? What was the need for punjabi suba ? Let Akalis Tell the Kaum, what they wanted to achieve by Punjabi Suba, and what have they achieved ? Haryana is progressing faster being nearer to Hub of Delhi. We isolated ourselves. We did not educate india through media about our contribution. We could not even stop Sikh jokes. We have failed miserably. No Hindu is responsible. They would try to take us down. It is survival of fittest among the Kaums. We have not been upto the fitness level. By using Words like "Gangu" "Bahmanvaadi" "Khalistan Homeland",  we are hiding our own failures. Dont we gangus within ourselves ? Why dont you talk about those ? THERE IS NO DANGER OF NON-SIKH HIDDEN AGENDAS TO OUR KAUM, THE DANGER IS WITHIN. THE FANATIC AND SEPARATIST VIEWS, ONCE THEY STRETCH THE IDEAS OF THE YOUTH, IT WONT RECOIL. We dont want to land up as another Pakistan. There too Mailks and Zamindars have taken over and exploiting. Nations based on such theory cannot survive, they build only frankensteins as has Pakistan. We have given our blood and sweat to this nation and we must fight staying within to claim our right. Again, who took it from us and who would give it ?

You said "Sabotage by majority Non-Sikhs to Sikhs". Badals, in case of Sirsa, What are they doing? Are they non-Sikh ? They are giving him security. No proper invetigation. Sir, I believe, This is Powerful vs Powerless, not Non-Sikhs Vs Sikhs. What has Panthic Sarkar(Akali) done in their tenure to solve the issue ? Would this be any better in KHALISTAN ? This is Power hunger. 1978 took place when Badal was CM. Non-Sikhs hurting Sikhs is ******** being preached to us. No youth is likely to admit this. we have educated and aware youth in our Punjab, contributing to the country in their way. Same is the Non-Sikh youth. They have unprejudiced, scientific approach towards the matter and they ask questions. There is huge paradox in the approach of sikh leaders and thus sikh youth have sidelined. Amritdharis(Not all) sitting in management in Darbar sahib are emerging out to be bahmanvaadis. They are no more Sevadaars.

Bhull Chukk Maaf.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 14, 2011)

Dilgeer Singh veer I used "Bhain" because the symbol showing next to your name means a female (the pink Symbol below..  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">*dilgeer*











 </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"> 
</td> <td width="100%"> </td></tr></tbody></table>
For men it is like below the blue circle with arrow,

*Gyani Jarnail Singh*









In terms of your post I have couple of comments,





dilgeer said:


> Ambarsaria Ji,
> 
> But ultimately, If any change this movement brings, that would affect Sikhs too.


_Of course I see that.  Now let us look at number.  There are probably 300 million people who have given bribery to someone during the course of their lives.  Yo get ahead in the line, get  a job, get a license, apply anywhere, and basically doing everything.__  I know I had to to do it many times in India._

_There is an equal class of people in 100-300 million who are the takers of bribes/corrupt money.

Now a law passed by central Government would do what?  Isn't there already law against corruption?

How would this system ever right itself.  I believe the massive violence rule of truthful and dedicated is the only way.  People are not scared of fines or jails.

Now look at Anan Hazare.  Perhaps a great man.  He is old.  He passes away, who will run this campaign?  There is no depth.

Seeing all that I made the comments I did.

_


> Singh Saab, Here we have to take direction from philosophy of GuruDev Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This World is grosser manifestation, full of imperfections. There would be difference within an individual, couple, family, Community, States, Nations. So, there would be competition. If we fail achieve what Kaum desires or injustice prevails, then we must see where we are lacking. The extent of history I have read, I see gross mistakes from our leaders, while Sikh youth paid with their lives. This loss pinches the psyche of the sikh, while a hindu witnessed their debacle. 1947 - Sikh leaders fell short of required vision, stayed selfish. People like Kartar Singh, tara Singh etc. 1966 further broke down Punjab. Akalis wanted to have state with more of Sikh population to form a government of there own. Punjabi Suba again took many sikh lives. 1984 akali and jarnail singh again not on same page. after 1984, Sikh Militant groups not on same agenda. This made it easy for intelligence agencies to infilterate these groups, while they could not identify the outsiders. Were they 'FOOLS' ?


_I agree with you and I have posted so in other threads._



> Declaration of khalistan.. again allowed forces to come into Golden temple. is there any maturity in Sikh leaders ?


_Attack on Golden Temple was to kill Sikh psyche once and for all.  Golden Temple complex is few City blocks.  Million plus army cannot keep it circcled to get people out?  Give me a break.  You have bought the line of the then Government and their propaganda.  It is no one's business what goes on in the Golden Temple other than the Sikhs._



> What was the need for punjabi suba ? Let Akalis Tell the Kaum, what they wanted to achieve by Punjabi Suba, and what have they achieved ? Haryana is progressing faster being nearer to Hub of Delhi. We isolated ourselves. We did not educate india through media about our contribution. We could not even stop Sikh jokes. We have failed miserably. No Hindu is responsible. They would try to take us down. It is survival of fittest among the Kaums. We have not been upto the fitness level. By using Words like "Gangu" "Bahmanvaadi" "Khalistan Homeland",  we are hiding our own failures. Dont we gangus within ourselves ? Why dont you talk about those ?


_Again I agree and I have commented so as needed._


> THERE IS NO DANGER OF NON-SIKH HIDDEN AGENDAS TO OUR KAUM, THE DANGER IS WITHIN.


_I totally disagree as you need to know check the history of some of the deras and sects sponsored by the Governments over the years and many decades._



> THE FANATIC AND SEPARATIST VIEWS, ONCE THEY STRETCH THE IDEAS OF THE YOUTH, IT WONT RECOIL.


_I do not believe the new generation to be stupid and I believe they can think wisely and the future of Sikhism is in their hands.

_


> You said "Sabotage by majority Non-Sikhs to Sikhs". Badals, in case of Sirsa, What are they doing? Are they non-Sikh ? They are giving him security. No proper invetigation. Sir, I believe, This is Powerful vs Powerless, not Non-Sikhs Vs Sikhs. What has Panthic Sarkar(Akali) done in their tenure to solve the issue ? Would this be any better in KHALISTAN ? This is Power hunger. 1978 took place when Badal was CM. Non-Sikhs hurting Sikhs is ******** being preached to us.


_If you read my comments I am not a fan of lot of the people that you also don't like.  That is why Akali and Congress have been included in the two eparate piles of mess in my post.
_


> No youth is likely to admit this. we have educated and aware youth in our Punjab, contributing to the country in their way. Same is the Non-Sikh youth. They have unprejudiced, scientific approach towards the matter and they ask questions. There is huge paradox in the approach of sikh leaders and thus sikh youth have sidelined. Amritdharis(Not all) sitting in management in Darbar sahib are emerging out to be bahmanvaadis. They are no more Sevadaars.


_I agree._

Do you still believe I am a fanatic mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 14, 2011)

Latets reports say Annah is FED UP of Kiran bedi  and the others mentioned as His TEAM..they are Manipulators says Annah...so what gives now ??? 
Just ONE drizzle washed OFF the Bhagwa Raang of Bhabee Ramdev....its taking a slight shower to wash off Annahs raang...what will happen when the MONSOON arrives....all will be WET and Naked...as they really are...


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## dilgeer (Nov 15, 2011)

SSA Ambarsaria Ji.



> <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style> Dilgeer Singh veer I used "Bhain" because the symbol showing next to your name means a female (the pink Symbol below..


I corrected in my CP. Thanks.



> <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style> _Of course I see that. Now let us look at number. There are probably 300 million people who have given bribery to someone during the course of their lives. Yo get ahead in the line, get a job, get a license, apply anywhere, and basically doing everything. I know I had to to do it many times in India._
> 
> _There is an equal class of people in 100-300 million who are the takers of bribes/corrupt money.
> _


So basically your view here is that we are stakeholders of corruption. Very True. So, If we, as people, want to formulate a law which curbs the practice and provides timely justice, then I think we are not doing anything unfruitful. What law would do and what current laws of corruption are doing like POCA, I shall post in next part of the reply. But why doesn't or lawmakers want to do it, bcoz they receive the cut. Our tasks like police verification of passport, Ration Depos items, Birth Certificate etc are deliberately delayed. What would you do in that case ? Can u scuffle with police ? No, we can ask for a law Like JanLokpal (Anna's Version, I hope you have read it), which has a citizen charter which demarcates the timeline within which timeline of tasks of each govt department would be given and if it exceeds, then after investigation of delay or demands of bribe, fine would be imposed in the officer involved within again 3 months time and fine shall be cut from the salary of the officer. Citizen charter is just a fragment of the whole bill. I guess you must have followed the news in August during Ramlila Maidan An-Shann, when Municipal Corp of Delhi implemented the Charter and people were getting there jobs done on the same day. Same way with Corp of Mumbai.



> _Now a law passed by central Government would do what? Isn't there already law against corruption?
> _


Yes, Laws are in place like Prevention of Corruption Act. Take Case of 2G. You cannot convict a MP without permission of the PM, which Manmohan Singh didnt give to Swamy ( Complainant in case of 2G). Eventually after 1.8 Years he had to go to court to pressurize PM to convict Raja. This too happened with Media Pressure. Same way for Any Govt Employee or Judiciary. If any officer sees his senior officer is involved in corruption, he would have to give proof and ask for his senior's permission to convict him for the activity, as per current law. Don't you think it has been made deliberately paradoxical or even life threatening ? Our MPs say, we have the law and we take their word without going into the detail. We should be more subjective about such things. 



> _How  would this system ever right itself._


System would never right itself. Reason being that System is bcoz we follow it. Constitution is bcoz we give the constitution the right to govern us. As the Constitution Says in the First line, "We the people of India give ourselves to the Constitution of India ". So, People are supreme. If people believe system is to change, then it must. How would people believe ? Media and campaign of hidden truths, which our rulers don't want us to know must be brought among the masses. Our education level would help us in this. There are people with clear conscious and desire to serve and pain of the current system serving as watchdogs like Anna, Bedi, Kejriwal to inform us of what is happening at higher levels and how it would affect us.



> _I believe the massive violence  rule of truthful and dedicated is the only way. People are not scared of  fines or jails.
> _


Why we Sikhs are fascinated by the voilent methods ? Its the most evil method. How would you know that you must kill someone ? If it comes out of despair or pain, I understand. If you are serious, then lets discuss it seriously. How you intend to carry this out ? By giving arms to all ? How would you make sure that A Gun in hands of a youth or even an Adult for that matter, untrained, immature, unaware of implications wont misuse it or be misguided. If Someone says, Sikh or Hindu doesnt hurt anyone. Its Bul*l-Shi*t. What we witnessed in Punjab or elsewhere during terrorism times tell the story ? Many lost the balance of the mind with Guns in their hands and whole agenda went misplaced. Again, If you take to arms, then your rivals, the govt, has means million times stronger than you, to eliminate you within days. Also, on grounds of morality, you would stand culprit as resorting to means otherwise avoidable. You have to be in context. Singh Saab, Realise one thing. If you have vote, you don't need Gun. We are democracy, not monarchy. We don't need Guns. Politicians greatest effort is to survive in the Power. Day when you make him believe he is about to be discarded, The Politician or the Party as a whole would change their decades long agenda to be in alignment with people. Such is the power vested in us.


> _Now look at Anan Hazare. Perhaps a great man. He is old. He passes away, who will run this campaign? There is no depth.
> _


Well, this is a pessimist approach. You are being sarcastic about future which has not unfolded yet. Its not Anna but millions of people and the Graded level of leadership leading this. You must have witnessed this when Anna went to Jail and people behaved themselves in absence of his guidance. Second level of leadership guided it. So, If Anna is Old, and perhaps he will pass, so it not wise to support such a cause whole-heartedly, bcoz we might be wasting our time, I guess this wont let us anywhere. Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, change the politics of Punjab within 4-5 years of his life as Mukhi of Taksal.



> <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style> _ It is no one's business what goes on in the Golden Temple other than the Sikhs._


This makes us appear arrogant and poses us as not offering us to the Law and Order of the Situation. How we manage our religion is our own business, but when Law and Order situation arises, we are subjects to the Law of the Land. We cannot isolate ourselves on that. How the Operation was conducted, It was deliberately designed to be so, although there were options. General Sunderji was deposed by Indira just bcoz so, as he insisted on alternate means, since he knew the casulties count and infrastructure loss would be high. He must be appreciated. Again, It is not Hinduwaadi agenda, Its Congress Agenda and particularly Indira Agenda to accede to power by exploiting Hindu sentiment, by first showing them as victims and then storming Darbar Sahib. There were many things that our Leaders did wrong that could have been done otherwise, but since they were split, why would anyone come to table with you knowing you are scattered, but would quickly engage you and eliminate you. Operation Bluestar was not possible without consent of Akalis. Indian Government is not responsible for this, as my strong opinion. We have to be subjective of this. Akalis and Punjab machinery was hand in glove with Congress. All Akali "Marjeeware" came out surrendered out of Darbar Sahib. Does that ring a bell ? We have to dissect this issue with the scalpel of Wisdom, truth and without any prejudice.




> <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style> _I totally disagree as you need to know check the history of some of the deras and sects sponsored by the Governments over the years and many decades._


Again, Let us use the Scalpel of our wisdom to dissect this. Tell me one Dera not suported by Akali Govt. Be it Sirsa, Noormahal, bhanirawala. Badal Family is regular visitor. So movement which used to fight against these has sided with them, so how would you expect these deras to go. People are obsessed with Akalis still and dont see the truth. So Danger is within. Day people realise the Nexus of Deras and Akalis, Rush in those deras would come down. In my humble opinion, We must not club all deras into one. Saints like Baba Nand Singh Ji, Baba Attar Singh Ji Mastuana Sahib are gems of the Kaum and Humanity and are living in Deras. Alongside demonstrations, Sikh leaders must do some investigative search into their lives instead of going to arms and bring it before people, People shall know the truth and would stop going to them. As is the Case with Asaaram Bapu. His following has reduced. He too is saved by Gujarat Govt, bcoz of his large following. Day govt realizes he is not being supported by people govt too would not like to get their hands dirty with Such Babas ? So, If our Jathebandis are not doing this, are they ignorant of any such thoughts of bloodless strategy or have any political ambition ?, I am not aware. Why get your turban displaced to stop satsangs of these Govt Backed Babas, Bring out the truth.



> <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style>
> _I do not believe the new generation to be stupid and I believe they can think wisely and the future of Sikhism is in their hands._



Wisdom is bounded by the information provided. If that info does not testify to actual set of events in right perspective, it would surely mislead, In material as well as spiritual life. If anarth of actual arth of one slok of Gurbani is done, I would not expect the seeker to know the true message of the our Master.



> <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style> Do you still believe I am a fanatic


Let me tell you about myself. I can be totally wayward on one issue which I dont know much about. But on another, I could discuss with confidence. So, I am not absolute. Neither a scholar or Dumb. On particular issue, I can be anything of the two. Same way I see the people. No one is absolute but relative. Same way, I guess we must see Kaums or Nations. Few of your statements made me say that statement to be fanatic. One would say so if he is convinced by the idea, unless other ideas gives his thoughts new dimensions. We must always be in dialogue to convince each other.

Bhull Chukk Muaff.


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## dalbirk (Nov 15, 2011)

Dilgeer Ji ,
        I find your analysis quite in line with my thoughts . What should be the way forward for quom in your opinion ? IMHO going with Congress should be the best way for now because Congress in its present form is in no way pandering to hardline Hindus which forms core of BJP votebank , barring protecting genocide culprits Congress ( Sonia )  has done not much wrong for Sikhs except in recent times not passing of Anand Marriage Act . The Sarna group is IMHO doing quite OK in Delhi despite the small population of Sikhs there . The third independent Sikh Platform in addition to  Badal(RSS) & Sarna ( Congress) seems quite far in present times . Captain Amarinder Singh is in my opinion guilty of restoring Khalistani groups like Dal Khalsa & many others during his previous tenure . The biggest challenge to Sikhs in present times is from dwindling nos of Sikhs , Uneducation , lack of jobs , lack of direction regarding motto of life ( no hard working ethics , alcohalism , drugs problem , no bigger aim in life than eating drinking & making merry ) , the increasing nos of Deras , Dilution of Sikhi principles like scrapping of Nanakshahi calendar . Badals on the other hand are doing nothing big to improve the lot of Punjabis , no big industry is coming , no improvement in literacy , no improvement in health . Add to it the presence of Congress Govt in Delhi is making big ticket changes difficult . Badals are running a private limited company with no bigger aim than collecting money through sand mafia , cable , transport & land grabbings . No motto for Panth , SGPC , Akal Takhat are all pandering to Badal's wishes . Today I heard LIVE Katha from Sri Darbar Sahib on PTC Punjabi by Giani Gurbachan Singh , Jathedar Akal Takhat Sahib . He was speaking on ONE POINT AGENDA , the atrocities of Congress & sacrifices & just rule of PANTHIC , PS BADAL at 7.45 AM to 8.30 AM . Such blatant MISUSE of stage like Darbar Sahib for political use is not any how acceptable . So Congress is a better option today instead of PS Badal . What is your opinion Dilgeer Ji ?


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## dilgeer (Nov 15, 2011)

Sat Sri Akal, Dalbirk Ji.

Let me tell you we have to come out of this groove of our mind to support one party or the other. No Party is panthic or anti-Panthic I believe. It all about what is popular among the masses becomes the issue. And after coming to Power, All do the same job of looting the public money. They are all the same. We have to realise our power of Vote. We shall keep our vote floating.  If we are convinced and have sufficient knowledge, we must convince others too. LET ME TELL YOU SINGH SAAB, WE DONT NEED BADALS OR AMRINDERS, OUR LEADER IS ETERNAL, WHO IS OUR MASTER. TO RUN OUR SYSTEM WE ONLY NEED SEVAKS. THAT SEWAK CAN BE BADAL, AMRINDER OR ANYONE.

I'll tell you what has happened when we think on lines of supporting one party or the another. We have given these parties chance alternate times based on the failures of previous ones. So, they have developed the idea and arrogance that they have the right to rule us. Mahipal Maderna's Wife was saying on camera to his party people to break Cameras of TV channels, "Inke Camere torho, inko pata chale". SUCH ARROGANCE. No link with reality. LETS GO BEYOND THE IMAGINATION OF THESE PEOPLE AND NOT VOTE FOR A PARTY every 15th year. OR Lets vote for independents. Some would say, those would in turn be bought by the bigger parties. Well, This would for certain make them change strategies. Within current system, this only is possible. If Anna succeeds with RIGHT TO RECALL, then we would have democracy in true terms. Then you have all the power. Be it any government, you can bring them to knees if they falter. We have to inform and educate all of our fellow men about this. If our people are Politically educated, then only we can be true masters of Democracy(VOTER), and we can make these chameleons as our Sewaks.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 15, 2011)

Here Dilgeer veer I agree with you and that was the purpose of original two piles I created,

*1.  BJP Block:*    RSS, BJP, Ram Dev, Anna Hazare (50%), Akalis

*2.  Congress:*    Congress, Anna Hazare (50%), Islamic Minority, Sikh (non-Akali)

We can reason and say we are going to  keep our vote floating.  You really believe that Congress and Akalis don't know you will vote for 1 or 2!  Remember that they only have to manipulate people once every 3 or 4 years.  It is not difficult and happens around the world and not just in Punjab, India, etc.

When I was 20, I had lot of thoughts like yourself, but the time has sprinkled lot of pragmatism into the meal.  I saw anti-corruption crusades during the times of Congress Rule in Punjab in the past.  People were put in jail and soon they will be back in jobs.  I am not pessimistic but try to be pragmatic.

Obviously I wish good will come to Punjab and India and Sikhs but how I don't know because of the embedded Akali and Congress institutions.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## dilgeer (Nov 15, 2011)

Veer Ambarsaria Ji.

My objection is including Anna in BJP Block. How come he is in that block ?
Yes, I am young and options are limited, and we have to make permutations in current system only. Then Why not vote for other than mainstream parties ? But still, kind of governance we desire, we cannot get, I admit, bcoz there is no check on these people's activities. Which Anti-corruption crusades you are talking about ?

Also, My humble query if you have read JanLokpal bill and how much you know about Arvind Kejriwal, Anna, Kiran Bedi in regard to this crusade. We have reached a point where parties are no more relevant but we need a system to check the working of these people. Till now, they have no accountability and rule for the common man and not them. To be more Hopeful, Please go through this link:

http://www.icac.org.hk/new_icac/eng/abou/history/main_1.html

This is what Janlokpal is based on.

and What convinces you that "Massive Voilence rule of truthful and dedicated" could bring a solution, which has invariably no example in world history as such. Bloody revolutions have only changed the aggressors, common man has always been on the receiving end.


Bhull Chukk Muaff.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 15, 2011)

Veer Dilgeer ji I included Anna Hazare as 50% in both given little that I read related to factions within his supporters from RSS and others.  May be 50/50 is not right, but it does not matter that much and 50/50 actually makes it appear he or movement is impartial but come voting time people vote 1 or 2 whether they believe Ana Hazare or not.

Reference to violence relates to totalitarian regimes like the "Cultural Revolution" in China which did lot of bad but created accountability at the barrel of a gun when there was no reasonable solution.  Never the best or even appropriate option but sometimes the consequences have to be pretty stark to change old ways.

I hope and I know you recognize that almost all national Judiciary is more or less appointed by Congress and so are most investigative and law enforcement Chiefs, Manager, etc.  Most of the DG, DIG, SSP, DSP, DCs, etc., positions being quite easily recognizable.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## dilgeer (Nov 15, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Latets reports say Annah is FED UP of Kiran bedi  and the others mentioned as His TEAM..they are Manipulators says Annah...so what gives now ???



and you believed it....

I guess you have already made up your mind.. Manish tiwari on 14th Aug said "Anna hazare tum kis muh se bhrashtaachaar ki baat karte ho... Sir se leke pair tak tum khud lipat ho"... Afterwards he said sorry and now he very little visible on television.. IAC which is leading this movement has done audit of its accounts twice in a year and put data on website.. During Ramlila Maidan, they refused any more chanda when 80 Lakhs were collected only after 3 days... Out of those they have reverted 42 lakhs of online transfers from unknown (Wihtout PAN) accoounts although they could keep 20% account by law and return remainder... Anna Hazare has given Maharashtra 8 strong Laws including Right to Information (RTI) and same version at center.. When govt tried to change the same law, he again sat on Annshann to stop it and it had to stay... Owing to RTI we are seeing these many scams...



> Just ONE drizzle washed OFF the Bhagwa Raang of Bhabee Ramdev....its  taking a slight shower to wash off Annahs raang...what will happen when  the MONSOON arrives....all will be WET and Naked...as they really are...



Will Discuss about Ramdev Later. He is immature and ill-advised andnot cut out for political affairs..

But What "Raang" of Anna ? Can u please elaborate where this man has faltered, any allegations ? Please educate...


Bhull Chukk Muaff.


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## dilgeer (Nov 15, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Veer Dilgeer ji I included Anna Hazare as 50% in both given little that I read related to factions within his supporters from RSS and others.  May be 50/50 is not right, but it does not matter that much and 50/50 actually makes it appear he or movement is impartial but come voting time people vote 1 or 2 whether they believe Ana Hazare or not.
> 
> Reference to violence relates to totalitarian regimes like the "Cultural Revolution" in China which did lot of bad but created accountability at the barrel of a gun when there was no reasonable solution.  Never the best or even appropriate option but sometimes the consequences have to be pretty stark to change old ways.
> 
> ...



Veer Ambarsaria Ji.


I am thankful that you are although to a little extent considering anna to be impartial.. Related to factions within RSS and BJP, Lokpal will hurt these people equally but they are trying to gain advantage by joining his stage. Mohan Bhagwat says he supports Anna, well its good. There were people from Pakistan lately who had come to meet anna for any tips for any such revolution in pakistan. Does that make it pakistan backed ? Rashid Alwi has said back in September that US is trying to fund these movements to destabilise India. What is this ? Dont be bothered. I guess you are victim of misinformation. Veerji, If you dont mind please make sure you take view of other faction too. What they have to say. While you give an opinion, it is kind of an judgement based on your information, you act as judge, so get both sides views as a Judge does. He doesnot give verdict until he has heard both. If you dont have indian Channels, Please watch youtube channels.

If you wish I can give you few links for better clarifications.

Talking about DGPs, DGs etc, Still there are good people around, not need to be pessimistic,  who are ready to face the Music like Sanjeev bhatt of Gujarat against Modi for his role in Riots.Court has given him justice by giving him bail. He was SP and has been dismissed and was in meeting when Modi said to not stop the rioters. Bhatt are Brahmins. There is no "Bahmanvaad" in this, as there are many sarcastic people here. many more examples but my fingers are hurting. Many Judges, CBI people, Election commision people, MPs.But only 10% who are tattuus of Politicians rule other 90%. Just wonder who is helping Subramanium Swamy in 2G case with out of blue Notes and files ?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 15, 2011)

dilgeer said:


> If you wish I can give you few links for better clarifications.


_Dilgeer veer feel free to post some good links.  It is not a great interest of mine as virtually no one from even our extended families lives in Punjab.  I watch virtually no TV and most is reading articles, etc., which I am sure are biased.
_
Thanks for your posts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## dilgeer (Nov 15, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Dilgeer veer feel free to post some good links.  It is not a great interest of mine as virtually no one from even our extended families lives in Punjab.  I watch virtually no TV and most is reading articles, etc., which I am sure are biased.
> _
> Thanks for your posts.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Dear Ambarsaria Ji.


Please watch these videos. These would give you insight into the whole matter and all allegations an their explanations are given including all videos.

Anna Hazare & Arvind Kejriwal In Aap Ki Adalat      - YouTube

This is fist part, you can find later parts easily.
Team Anna In Aap Ki Adalat - Part 1      - YouTube

Aravind Kejriwal's Interview with Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate      - YouTube

http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/k6-MvL5q-cY/default.jpg

Arvind Kejriwal Clarifying Controversies raised by Govt on Janlokpal      - YouTube


Importance of Jan Lokpal : Anna Hazare, Kiran Bedi & Arvind Kejriwal      - YouTube

few other videos, When this movement started in beginning of this year in Feb from Ramlila Ground where many leaders had gathered, including Ramdev, Anna, Subramanium Swamy(2G Complainant), Vishwa bandhu Gupta(Former IT Commissioner) and others.

Vishwa Bandhu Gupta War Against Corruption Rally Ramlilla Ground Delhi Jai Varun Giri      - YouTube

Myth of Manmohan Singh being Honest, busted by Former IT Commissioner (Adl)      - YouTube

Ram Jethmalani EXPOSING SONIA GANDHI 27/02/2011 Ram Leela Maidan      - YouTube

Arvind Kejriwal War Against Corruption Rally Ramlilla Ground Delhi Jai Varun Giri      - YouTube

27-02-2011-WAR-AGAINST-CORRUPTION-RALLY-RAMLILA-GROUND-DELHI (1).mp4      - YouTube

Bhull chukk muaff.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 15, 2011)

Dilgeer Ji..My Mind is never made up...i always make an attempt to see the other's viewpoint..and make corrections (if possible)...so I will listen to the videos...


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## dilgeer (Nov 16, 2011)

Satkaryog Gyani Ji,

Its great and infact, Human in real terms, when we keep our minds open to views around us. It is a trait which everyone can learn from you. Moreover, When we give our opinion, we are actually givingout a judgement based on the info available to us. We act as the judge. A Judge would never give his verdict unless hearing both sides. Since, our opinion induces seeds of thought and disposition in minds of those who look upto us or around us, we must be vigilant and reponsible about it. I had developed tremendous hatred about Hindus on issues like 1984 or afterwards or even before, but when I looked in totality the issue, from their standpoint, and from a third party view, I guess seeds of fault were planted by us and even watered to grow them into issues of the date. I take it as a competition between Kaums every round of which has been won by them, only due to Tukkar-Boch and short-sightedness (due to lack of knowledge of history and education) approach of oyur leaders. Hindus cannot dilute our religion, only we can and they too know this. They too acknowledge it and working through people within us. we are looking in wrong direction ( Bull** Sh&it like Khalistan ).. Well there is no stop to writing about this.. So, I rest my case here..


Bhull Chukk Muaff..


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 16, 2011)

Dilgeer veer there is a limit to introspection.  You are quite on the far side of balance in terms of 1984.  Otherwise all is good. mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## dilgeer (Nov 16, 2011)

Veer Ambarsaria Ji.

Do educate me on this. 

Regards.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 16, 2011)

dilgeer said:


> Veer Ambarsaria Ji.
> 
> Do educate me on this.
> 
> Regards.


No need.  It will be all heresay versus seeing.  One needed to experience before, during and after.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## dilgeer (Nov 16, 2011)

Veer Ambarsaria Ji.

                            I understand what you are saying and admit it. But how can we understand ? Yours is first hand account but there are multiple perspectives, as we analyse the great epics of history which have happened way before us. Same way we shall have to do it. If you are referring to unjust done to Sikh families, youth, I acknowledge that and I wont say I feel the pain bcoz I can't ( only those who have suffered the loss can and I respect that ). What I mean is that these are by-products or the effect, cause still lies somewhere unexposed. One more thing: Watching things too close always seem different. Talk to any politician personally. You would find him a decent person and a reasonable human being but when the same person goes about his usual routine, thats totally the opposite, even to the extent of Evil.

Bhull Chukk Muaff.


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