# A Few Questions From Me



## Shanger (Oct 28, 2010)

I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.


1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything. 


2] Similarly, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). This again conflicts with the idea of god imo, if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy. 

3] If you want to believe that there is a god and he does show emotion, then why would he enable himself to feel emotion? Or create something which he has no control over that could affect his emotion? For example I wouldnt put my cat in a box with a dog because even tho its gully it might still get killed, there is a chance that cats and dogs get along but why would I take that chance? 

4] Sikhism involves the gurus, who were in INDIA. Therefore the msg of sikhism first came to a section of the world. What about the rest of the world? Are they just unlucky/have to wait till the next life?  If god really did want to make his message known, why not utilise some better form of communication where he could get his message across, after all he is god and the creator right? Does it not seem weird that god would make so little effort to become known  and have one universal religion, and in fact rely on human gurus to carry out the huge task of spreading the word of his existence?

5] Finally the hindu gods are mentioned, are sikhs expected to believe that the hindu gods existed, like a human with an elephant head etc? 

Please do not link me to articles from scholars and just reply to me yourself, and include granth quotes if necessary.

Thanks


----------



## Ishna (Oct 28, 2010)

Dear Shanger ji

Welcome to the board. I will attempt to answer your questions from my own point of view.

1. I don't think God wants us to sing Its praises because It likes to hear them, but because it elevates the human conscience by focusing it on totally awesome qualities, brings peace to your mind enabling you to live a higher Truth and be a better person. It help a person link themselves to God spiritually so they might merge with God once this physical life has passed.

2. Where have you got the idea that God is happy and rewards us for good deeds, and is angry and punishes us for our bad ones? We reward or punish ourselves with nearness or separatedness from God.

3. Where have you got the idea that God has emotions in the same way humans do? God is beyond human comprehension (even declaring It beyond comprehension falls short), and I don't think anyone can say whether It feels, or if It feels in the same way humans do.

4. I don't think the Sikh conception of God is necessarily an interfering force. It is not a deity in the same sense that Jehova (Christain God) is, or any other deity I've come across (including Allah). It is an energy, not a person with a human personality. Guru Nanak was enlightened, had realised God, his light was SO BRIGHT because his connection to God was so strong. If others in the world were able to achieve that state of mind then they would probably have come to similar conclusions. It just so happens that Guru Nanak in India figured it out first!

I don't think it's a fault of God "making so little effort to become known" but more humans making so little effort (by way of our own slow evolution) to realise God.

5. Hindu Gods are mentioned because Guru Nanak was speaking to Hindus. When he was speaking to Muslims he spoke of Allah. Whether or not these deities exist bears no significance for a Sikh because a Sikh is only concerned with the One Universal Creative Force. When you read about God being Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu, try reading it as "the destroying force, the creative force and the sustaining force" and you might get more of an idea of the totally all-encompassing, singular God-force.

I'm at work and can't supply quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (you might like to capitalise Granth please as you are addressing Sikhs who value their sacred scripture very highly and it would be a token of respect).

I hope I've been able to address your points. I am not far along the Sikh path and others may be able to answer more succinctly.

Ishna


----------



## Shanger (Oct 29, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Dear Shanger ji
> 
> Welcome to the board. I will attempt to answer your questions from my own point of view.


Thanks



Ishna said:


> 1. I don't think God wants us to sing Its praises because It likes to hear them, but because it elevates the human conscience by focusing it on totally awesome qualities, brings peace to your mind enabling you to live a higher Truth and be a better person. It help a person link themselves to God spiritually so they might merge with God once this physical life has passed.


I don't see how singing praise can elevate the human concious/enable you to be a better person any more than doing good deeds such as charity work, helping others etc. Wouldn't living a life with good morals be sufficient?



Ishna said:


> 2. Where have you got the idea that God is happy and rewards us for good deeds, and is angry and punishes us for our bad ones? We reward or punish ourselves with nearness or separatedness from God.


I could be wrong but I thought that sikhs beleive that if you live a good life you get reincarnated at a higher level (or reach salvation if you live a fairly perfect life), and if you live a bad life you carry on through the cycle possibly in a lower ranking form.



Ishna said:


> 3. Where have you got the idea that God has emotions in the same way humans do? God is beyond human comprehension (even declaring It beyond comprehension falls short), and I don't think anyone can say whether It feels, or if It feels in the same way humans do.


To react to actions of humans in such a way as I just described above does not seem beyond human comprehension.




Ishna said:


> 4. I don't think the Sikh conception of God is necessarily an interfering force. It is not a deity in the same sense that Jehova (Christain God) is, or any other deity I've come across (including Allah). It is an energy, not a person with a human personality. Guru Nanak was enlightened, had realised God, his light was SO BRIGHT because his connection to God was so strong. If others in the world were able to achieve that state of mind then they would probably have come to similar conclusions. It just so happens that Guru Nanak in India figured it out first!


I can't really respond to this as I do not know enough about Guru Nanak. How would you describe his state of mind though?




Ishna said:


> I'm at work and can't supply quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (you might like to capitalise Granth please as you are addressing Sikhs who value their sacred scripture very highly and it would be a token of respect).
> 
> I hope I've been able to address your points. I am not far along the Sikh path and others may be able to answer more succinctly.
> 
> Ishna



Ok I'll use caps, and thanks for the response.


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 29, 2010)

*No use of all caps please. If that is what you are talking about.  It is a breach of forum etiquette and looks like screaming. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is fine - upper and lower case.

Thanks, spnadmin*


----------



## findingmyway (Oct 29, 2010)

Dear Shanger Ji,
I'll give your questions a go though I think Ishna Ji captured the essence very well.



Shanger said:


> I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.
> 
> 
> 1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.



Good deeds and a moral life are most definitely important. If you are not a good person, all the hymns in the world won't help you. However, the purpose of prayer and singing kirtan is not for the benefit of God but for our own benefit. By focussing on the divine we are less easily seduced by influences trying to take us away from a good and spiritual path. By focussing on Waheguru, we are more likely to imbibe His good qualities, eg loving all, tolerance, standing up for the downtrodden. It also stops us wasting our time on useless pursuits that do not help us further ourselves. It also helps you learn the teachings as unless we understand our instructions how can we follow them to become good people and good Sikhs? Also by praying we realise that all is in God's will and that is very humbling so it stops you thinking above your station.



> 2] Similarly, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). This again conflicts with the idea of god imo, if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy.


The concept of God in Sikhism is all loving as God has created all and is in each and every one of us. If He hates us then He hates Himslef too. BTW God is not a person but humans are lacking language to express it any other way. Many Sikhs believe the reincarnation references are relating to within this lifetime. When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life. When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support. That is also how we create our own heaven and hell on Earth. It is humans who punish-others and ourselves (sometimes unfairly which accounts for all the bad things on Earth).



> 3] If you want to believe that there is a god and he does show emotion, then why would he enable himself to feel emotion? Or create something which he has no control over that could affect his emotion? For example I wouldnt put my cat in a box with a dog because even tho its gully it might still get killed, there is a chance that cats and dogs get along but why would I take that chance?


The only emotion belonging to God is love and compassion. We should endeavour to make these the primary emotions in ourselves too. God is not human so therefore human characteristics do not apply. We are a small portion of His creation and that is a very humbling thought.



> 4] Sikhism involves the gurus, who were in INDIA. Therefore the msg of sikhism first came to a section of the world. What about the rest of the world? Are they just unlucky/have to wait till the next life?  If god really did want to make his message known, why not utilise some better form of communication where he could get his message across, after all he is god and the creator right? Does it not seem weird that god would make so little effort to become known  and have one universal religion, and in fact rely on human gurus to carry out the huge task of spreading the word of his existence?


The Guru's travelled extensively so the message was never only in India. 
God is using a wonderful form of communication and Sikhi is spreading further now with the internet and media and many other tools at its disposal. There were other enlightened people too in the past but their messages got distorted over time by people. The Guru's were smart enough to know this happens so they wrote down their teachings firsthand so power crazy men couldn't distort their teachings. They also made sure that we don't have anymore living Guru's so the message would not be distorted for personal gain. Therefore, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is equivalent to a living Guru and is therefore much more than a holy book for us-it is our teacher and mentor, our leader and spiritual guide.



> 5] Finally the hindu gods are mentioned, are sikhs expected to believe that the hindu gods existed, like a human with an elephant head etc?
> 
> Please do not link me to articles from scholars and just reply to me yourself, and include granth quotes if necessary.
> 
> Thanks


They were used as examples to teach lessons so ordinary people could understand. Education at that time was not widespread so the Guru's used the mythological stories as a means of communication. It does not mean we believe in them. Equally the Guru's have also used examples from other faiths and cultures depending on where they were when those shabads (hymns) were written. Again it does not endorse all those beliefs but they are used as analogies/illustrations. You need to read the entire shabad to understand the context-never look at single lines.

Best wishes in your quest for knowledge. Any more questions please feel free to ask,
Jasleen :happykaur:


----------



## Ishna (Oct 29, 2010)

Hi Shanger ji, thanks for responding.  I hope I can clarify.  Findingmyway has already provided extrapolation so I'll (try to!) be brief.



Shanger said:


> I don't see how singing praise can elevate the human concious/enable you to be a better person any more than doing good deeds such as charity work, helping others etc. Wouldn't living a life with good morals be sufficient?



Living a moral life is very important.  Singing praise helps you feel inspired to live a moral life.  It gives you an idea how to live truthfully.  It helps put your own tiny existence into context, makes you feel part of something bigger, and gives you strength in the face of that which would challenge your truthful living endeavours.




Shanger said:


> I could be wrong but I thought that sikhs beleive that if you live a good life you get reincarnated at a higher level (or reach salvation if you live a fairly perfect life), and if you live a bad life you carry on through the cycle possibly in a lower ranking form.



This concept has nothing to do with God deciding "Ishna, you've been a baaaaaad babysitter ('scuse _Simpsons_ reference, hehehe!) and becuase of that I personally will see to it that you pay for it in your next life".  If you are bad person, you will pay for it by missing out on linking with the Divine.  If you subscribe to the concept of reincarnation in other lives (personally I do but I admit to not having researched this aspect thoroughly as I see it of little consequense to me personally as long as I'm trying my best to be a good person, whatever happens happens I figure) I still believe it is not God who personally decides your fate but the action of Karma which determines who/where/what you will be the next time around.  God is without fear and without hatred (see Mul Mantar).




Shanger said:


> I can't really respond to this as I do not know enough about Guru Nanak. How would you describe his state of mind though?



In the first instance, read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and read Guru Nanak's shabads.  You might also like to visit here and read a bit about Guru Nanak's life:  The Sikh Religion, Volume 1 by Max Arthur MacAuliffe .




Shanger said:


> Ok I'll use caps, and thanks for the response.



I meant to use sentance case to capitalise the 'G' in Granth.  Sorry I was not more specific.

Philosophy and spirituallity aren't things one can learn quickly.  I'm still full of questions and there are many things I don't understand.  I have researched Sikhi as much as I can over the years and it seems to me personally to be a reasonably logical and pure religion/spirituality.  The rest I will learn in time if I have to.

I hope I've helped clarify my points.

Ishna


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 29, 2010)

SINGING.........ah.......
taken to be mere "mouthing" accompanied by musical instruments..shiny attractive clothes, matching wajas, tablas, gatras, turbans and of course the ebst lighting and stage decor and satellite broadcasting...and what not....
ITS  NOT. This is a tiny tiny part of what "singing" means..

IN Gurbani..the Divine Message..meant to be SUNG...the word SINGING means PRACTISE...as in the English langauge METAPHORS..."sing the Obama Tune..Singh Obamas Praises..blah blah blah.." Its obvious that to sing the Obama Tune one is not required to have a waja and tabla or guitar....although it could be accomodated !! BUT the Practise and Active PROPOGATION of "OBAMA" (policies and all that stuff) is COMPULSORY.

IN GURBANI too..its the ACTIVE PARTICIPATION THROUGH REGULAR PERSONL PRACTISE..of the TEACHINGS OF GURBANI ...is whats meant to be..IS DUNIYA MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA !! I ma very very sure Guru Ji didnt mean that in the way of Satellite Broadcasting of Gurbani Kirtan Darbars and Mahaan Kirtan Samagams recorded LIVE on the best equipped stages, glittering lights, laser shows, shiny gold wajas and and all....................???? IS that HOW "Kirtan is Pardhaana..SUPREME " ??? Just yesterday i watched the Swami Ramanand Show (YOGA) on Satellite TV..He was dancing/Prancing on STAGE in front of a Live audience of YOGA practioners..and he was SINGING a SHABAD of Gurbani...while jumping up and down..and the Background showed pics of Guru nanak ji Guru gobind Singh Ji and lots of others Bhagwan Krishan Bhagwan Raam and even Mahatma Gandhi etc etc..To many that would also go as ..KIRTAN...SINGING the Praises of "god" and suppsoe that makes GOD so GLAD ???

IS JUGG MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA..means its the PRACTISE and FOLLOWING of the TEACHINGS of GURBANI that are PARDHAANA...that will CHANGE YOUR LIVES for the BETTER....SING "His Praises"..means FOLLOW in HIS FOOTSTEPS....which are for example...Treat all mankind as Brothers.... equals..worthy of all the love and respect..treat all Nature as YOUR OWN POSESSION..to be preserved..treasured for all...treat the poor and the downtrodden with Love and respect...SHARE and share alike with all..be HONEST...BE TRUTHFUL...BE KIND...1429  A3 Size Pages all FULL of "His Praises"..for us to follow...lets get the ingredients together..bake the Cake and EAT IT...THAAL WICH TEEN WASTOO PAIYEEO.....PRACTICAL WORK..not simply get a waja and tabla and SING the RECIPE !!! It will sound so musical..you may even go to sleep listening to the soothing sounds..BUT YOU WILL NEVER EAT THE CAKE..TASTE THE CAKE..BENEFIT FROM EATING THE CAKE...you will wake up HUNGRY !!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE !!! JIOS.....cheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleader


----------



## Shanger (Nov 1, 2010)

Appreciate the replies, I will go through them one by one. 



findingmyway said:


> Dear Shanger Ji,
> I'll give your questions a go though I think Ishna Ji captured the essence very well.
> 
> Thanks.
> ...


In my opinion the first part of what you have just said can translate to "we must pray to distract/keep ourselves busy so that we don't commit sins." Many people can successfully use their time constructively, and do not need to pray to help themselves become a better person. That time could be spent doing charity work or some other good deed, which would still be for our benefit in terms of being a better person.
I do agree that it is important to read the Granth as instructions are given, but why is there a need for such a large portion to be praises to god?



findingmyway said:


> The concept of God in Sikhism is all loving as God has created all and is in each and every one of us. If He hates us then He hates Himslef too. BTW God is not a person but humans are lacking language to express it any other way. Many Sikhs believe the reincarnation references are relating to within this lifetime. When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life. When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support. That is also how we create our own heaven and hell on Earth. It is humans who punish-others and ourselves (sometimes unfairly which accounts for all the bad things on Earth).


Well I said that it appears that God rewards and punishes certain actions, from what you said it still seems to me that
"When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life." = good deed which pleases god so REWARD.
"When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support." = bad deed which god does not like so punishment. 



findingmyway said:


> The only emotion belonging to God is love and compassion. We should endeavour to make these the primary emotions in ourselves too. God is not human so therefore human characteristics do not apply. We are a small portion of His creation and that is a very humbling thought.


You didn't really answer that question, if the only emotion belonging to god is love and compassion then why would he create an earth which would have so much evil in it? If god has love for his creations then again that is like me putting my cat in a box with a dog. Also if god is god then he would have known that the world would be this way surely. 



findingmyway said:


> The Guru's travelled extensively so the message was never only in India.
> God is using a wonderful form of communication and Sikhi is spreading further now with the internet and media and many other tools at its disposal. There were other enlightened people too in the past but their messages got distorted over time by people. The Guru's were smart enough to know this happens so they wrote down their teachings firsthand so power crazy men couldn't distort their teachings. They also made sure that we don't have anymore living Guru's so the message would not be distorted for personal gain. Therefore, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is equivalent to a living Guru and is therefore much more than a holy book for us-it is our teacher and mentor, our leader and spiritual guide.


This is a reasonable answer, as I am still learning, may I please ask what the Granth says will happen to people who die who during their life
1] were good people but do not follow any religion
2] were good people but follow a religion other than sikhism



findingmyway said:


> They were used as examples to teach lessons so ordinary people could understand. Education at that time was not widespread so the Guru's used the mythological stories as a means of communication. It does not mean we believe in them. Equally the Guru's have also used examples from other faiths and cultures depending on where they were when those shabads (hymns) were written. Again it does not endorse all those beliefs but they are used as analogies/illustrations. You need to read the entire shabad to understand the context-never look at single lines.
> Ok I will do.
> Best wishes in your quest for knowledge. Any more questions please feel free to ask,
> Jasleen :happykaur:




Big thanks for your reply brother.


----------



## Shanger (Nov 1, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Hi Shanger ji, thanks for responding.  I hope I can clarify.  Findingmyway has already provided extrapolation so I'll (try to!) be brief.
> 
> 
> 
> Living a moral life is very important.  Singing praise helps you feel inspired to live a moral life.  It gives you an idea how to live truthfully.  It helps put your own tiny existence into context, makes you feel part of something bigger, and gives you strength in the face of that which would challenge your truthful living endeavours.



But similarly just doing good deeds and living a live can make you feel inspired enough to live a moral life?




Ishna said:


> This concept has nothing to do with God deciding "Ishna, you've been a baaaaaad babysitter ('scuse _Simpsons_ reference, hehehe!) and becuase of that I personally will see to it that you pay for it in your next life".  If you are bad person, you will pay for it by missing out on linking with the Divine.  If you subscribe to the concept of reincarnation in other lives (personally I do but I admit to not having researched this aspect thoroughly as I see it of little consequense to me personally as long as I'm trying my best to be a good person, whatever happens happens I figure) I still believe it is not God who personally decides your fate but the action of Karma which determines who/where/what you will be the next time around.  God is without fear and without hatred (see Mul Mantar).


It seems to me that if you believe what you just wrote, you believe that karma is a body/law which can do things that either god can't do or can't prevent?




Ishna said:


> In the first instance, read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and read Guru Nanak's shabads.  You might also like to visit here and read a bit about Guru Nanak's life:  The Sikh Religion, Volume 1 by Max Arthur MacAuliffe .


Thank you I will read.



Ishna said:


> I meant to use sentance case to capitalise the 'G' in Granth.  Sorry I was not more specific.
> 
> Philosophy and spirituallity aren't things one can learn quickly.  I'm still full of questions and there are many things I don't understand.  I have researched Sikhi as much as I can over the years and it seems to me personally to be a reasonably logical and pure religion/spirituality.  The rest I will learn in time if I have to.
> 
> ...



I have follow up questions on your reply, thanks for the response brother.


----------



## Shanger (Nov 1, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> SINGING.........ah.......
> taken to be mere "mouthing" accompanied by musical instruments..shiny attractive clothes, matching wajas, tablas, gatras, turbans and of course the ebst lighting and stage decor and satellite broadcasting...and what not....
> ITS  NOT. This is a tiny tiny part of what "singing" means..
> 
> ...



So you're saying that the aim of praise is to use the singing as a method to practise the message of the Granth, so that the message can be passed on and better remembered/utilised?




Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> IS JUGG MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA..means its the PRACTISE and FOLLOWING of the TEACHINGS of GURBANI that are PARDHAANA...that will CHANGE YOUR LIVES for the BETTER....SING "His Praises"..means FOLLOW in HIS FOOTSTEPS....which are for example...Treat all mankind as Brothers.... equals..worthy of all the love and respect..treat all Nature as YOUR OWN POSESSION..to be preserved..treasured for all...treat the poor and the downtrodden with Love and respect...SHARE and share alike with all..be HONEST...BE TRUTHFUL...BE KIND...1429  A3 Size Pages all FULL of "His Praises"..for us to follow...lets get the ingredients together..bake the Cake and EAT IT...THAAL WICH TEEN WASTOO PAIYEEO.....PRACTICAL WORK..not simply get a waja and tabla and SING the RECIPE !!! It will sound so musical..you may even go to sleep listening to the soothing sounds..BUT YOU WILL NEVER EAT THE CAKE..TASTE THE CAKE..BENEFIT FROM EATING THE CAKE...you will wake up HUNGRY !!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE !!! JIOS.....cheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleader



So am I write in saying that the purpose of praise are to install the values such as equality, giving to charity etc into us humans?  

Thanks for your reply it was very informative.


----------



## findingmyway (Nov 1, 2010)

Shanger said:


> In my opinion the first part of what you have just said can translate to "we must pray to distract/keep ourselves busy so that we don't commit sins." Many people can successfully use their time constructively, and do not need to pray to help themselves become a better person. That time could be spent doing charity work or some other good deed, which would still be for our benefit in terms of being a better person.
> I do agree that it is important to read the Granth as instructions are given, but why is there a need for such a large portion to be praises to god?



Charity work is a type of praying as you are working to look after God's creation. One of the 3 pillars of Sikhi is seva-selfless service. As Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji said, kirtan is not just singing His praises but following advice in the Granth Sahib to become a better person. If someone stays on the right path without guidance, good for them! The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is guidance and instructive but is not prescriptive. The importance for a unique identity came from history and is a way of showing commitment and not running away from standing up for the downtrodden.



> Well I said that it appears that God rewards and punishes certain actions, from what you said it still seems to me that
> "When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life." = good deed which pleases god so REWARD.
> "When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support." = bad deed which god does not like so punishment.



NO! God does not punish/reward, you do that yourself. Imagine your wife. You love her and hate to be away from her. When you feel distanced from her then you hurt inside. Especially if this distnace is emotional, eg you have been tempted away for a few seconds in your mind you feel guilty or you have indulged in something she doesn't like. She does not punish you, likely she will forgive but you punish yourself!



> You didn't really answer that question, if the only emotion belonging to god is love and compassion then why would he create an earth which would have so much evil in it? If god has love for his creations then again that is like me putting my cat in a box with a dog. Also if god is god then he would have known that the world would be this way surely.



God gave us free will. It is us abusing that free will that causes so much misery in the world. People keep blaming God for their own actions. Equally with God's free will many help those who are suffering. People always seem to focus on the negative but there is also positive working to balancing that out. God is not a puppet master so we have to decide which way we are going to go and our Guru helps us do that-to harness our energy and ability for good.



> This is a reasonable answer, as I am still learning, may I please ask what the Granth says will happen to people who die who during their life
> 1] were good people but do not follow any religion
> 2] were good people but follow a religion other than sikhism



The Guru Granth Sahib Ji says we can never know what happens after death so lets focus on our life and make it count. The Guru's when alive always preached if you are a Hindu be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim be a good Muslim. Sikhi is the most tolerant religion in the world. It is the only religion that has had people die to defend others right to choose their own faith system. All of our history we have been fighting for freedom and that is the most amazing thing about Sikhi. The Guru's were imprisoned and martyred for Hindus-to stop them being converted to anything else against their will. We serve humanity, not just our own.



> Big thanks for your reply brother.



You most welcome but I think you mean sister


----------



## findingmyway (Nov 2, 2010)

Shanger Ji,
I would also like to add that Sikhi is a highly spiritual path. It is about realising the wonder of God and connecting to God. It is about becoming so strong and peaceful inside that you can face anything in life in a positive way. Our 5th Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji was tortured and martyred. During the torture he would have been in immense physical pain but it didn't affect him mentally. He said to God, whatever is your will is sweet for me. Sikhi is about developing the conviction of right and wrong that you can do anything for good of this world with a smile. Sikhi is about controlling your emotions so they don't cloud your judgment and Sikhi is about knowing/feeling that you are never alone as God is always with you.
kudihugkaurhugmundahug


----------



## Ishna (Nov 2, 2010)

Dear Shanger ji

Thank you for continuing the conversation.   When you ask questions like this is gives us a chance to examine our own beliefs and question if we actually do have it "right" in our own minds.



Shanger said:


> But similarly just doing good deeds and living a live can make you feel inspired enough to live a moral life?


 
I'm with findingmyway on this one:  if living morally and going good deeds is inspirational enough to you, then excellent.  But for many people, it isn't.  Personally, I would say I don't have many problems being a "good person, but sometimes there are areas I need help in -- controlling my anger, being polite to someone when they are rude to me, being tolerant and patient, being compassionate, and being inspired and humbled by reading/singing/praying about God helps me to be in the right mindset to overcome those challenges.



> It seems to me that if you believe what you just wrote, you believe that karma is a body/law which can do things that either god can't do or can't prevent?


 
My view here might be a bit contrary to other Sikhs, but I don't think God really cares about humans, and even less about humans one-to-one.  God doesn't look at me personally and judge or direct.  When I perceive myself connecting to the Divine, I'm filled with feelings of love and bliss and awe and wellbeing.  This is my experience, so I conclude this must be the stuff which God is made up of.  Or at least, what is generated by connecting to It.  

I view karma as a law like gravity or synchronisity or the way the wind blows.  I don't think God has a hand in those forces.  They are there and they do their thing as part of the wonderful myraid of creation.  I think karma is a part of that.



> This is a reasonable answer, as I am still learning, may I please ask what the Granth says will happen to people who die who during their life
> 1] were good people but do not follow any religion
> 2] were good people but follow a religion other than sikhism


 
This is an awesome question!  I don't know the answer, and look forward to other's responses.

On a strictly personal note, with the disclaimer that I am still relatively new to Sikhi, haven't read too much of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (I read what I can and try to understand but it is a slow process for me), my thoughts are that at the end of the day we're all humans (there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, there is no Sikh or Christian or Buddhist or Scientologist), and it is our truthful living (or not) which will direct our futures in the end.  You don't have to be a Sikh to attain enlightenment.  Sikhi is the toolkit you use to help you on your way to being a good person.  It gives you tips on what to do, strengthens your character, inspires you to be a good person and make good choices.  If someone can get all that out of a religion whose holy book (instead of being full of praise for the Creator) is a list of instructions on who is chosen and who is not, who should be punished or rewarded, who can be controlled, and justifies actions which aren't good, then good luck luck to that person, and they'll achieve the ultimate goal of unity with the Divine.

From what I've learned so far, Sikhi is the easiest toolkit to use.

I look forward to your replies and other frank and mind-opening questions, Shanger ji!  cheerleader

Ishna


----------



## davinderdhanjal (Nov 10, 2010)

Shanger said:


> I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.
> 
> 
> 1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.
> ...


Dear *Shanger*
I will try explaining the predicament in a way a simple mind like mine sees it.
   Mool Manter is a good description of god. Basically pointing you towards seeking 'truth'
I believe the deffinition of god as 'infinity' falls in that catagory. You may check it on the net but goes something like 'the whole is a part of itself'
   Assume the lord as 'infinite number of souls' - every person (all life in fact) has a part of this 'infinite' in them. So you are ' part of god' you have all the abilities that he has if you can find the truth. Guru Nanak tried to open the eyes of people to this and obviously succeeded as you are looking for it too.
   As the lord has created All and can do Anything - it now is in our control to follow a direction where we track a path which other millions of people are also treading but ensure that we do not hurt eachother. 
   Now imagine what is at stake - there are 6 billion people not to mention animals who are also a part of HIM and we should not hurt eachother!
   The LORD understands it and says I will help and sends people like Guru Nanak to show us the way. Even he did not have an easy time but at least he did his best as we know.
    Now the problem comes of how we interpret what he said - rather than make it very complicated and lose our way just do what he says - look for truth.
    If you spend all your time reading the Granth Sahib all your energy goes to understand it - by using HIS given ability you try to be 'true to youself and to god' - can you see how well you are bound and how little freedom you have to be BAD?
    Once this stage is reached there is a mine of all our Gurus' experiances in The Granth Sahib that would help if it is necessary.
     If anything above makes sense then you can see god does not need to be praised he will praise you for playing your part!
     Bhul chuck Maff Karni


----------



## Shanger (Nov 13, 2010)

Thanks for replies I am reading them now. 



findingmyway said:


> Charity work is a type of praying as you are working to look after God's creation. One of the 3 pillars of Sikhi is seva-selfless service. As Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji said, kirtan is not just singing His praises but following advice in the Granth Sahib to become a better person. If someone stays on the right path without guidance, good for them! The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is guidance and instructive but is not prescriptive. The importance for a unique identity came from history and is a way of showing commitment and not running away from standing up for the downtrodden.


Ok that makes sense and is fair enough. 


findingmyway said:


> NO! God does not punish/reward, you do that yourself. Imagine your wife. You love her and hate to be away from her. When you feel distanced from her then you hurt inside. Especially if this distnace is emotional, eg you have been tempted away for a few seconds in your mind you feel guilty or you have indulged in something she doesn't like. She does not punish you, likely she will forgive but you punish yourself!


I guess you're right in saying that since we choose our actions we choose our fate. 


findingmyway said:


> God gave us free will. It is us abusing that free will that causes so much misery in the world. People keep blaming God for their own actions. Equally with God's free will many help those who are suffering. People always seem to focus on the negative but there is also positive working to balancing that out. God is not a puppet master so we have to decide which way we are going to go and our Guru helps us do that-to harness our energy and ability for good.


But surely God being God will know EVERYTHING, meaning God knows everything that will happen since god created everything. So by allowing humans to have free-will god will have been aware of the evils that were inevitable. So why would he allow this?



The Guru Granth Sahib Ji says we can never know what happens after death so lets focus on our life and make it count. The Guru's when alive always preached if you are a Hindu be a* good *Hindu, if you are a Muslim be a *good* Muslim. Sikhi is the most tolerant religion in the world. It is the only religion that has had people die to defend others right to choose their own faith system. All of our history we have been fighting for freedom and that is the most amazing thing about Sikhi. The Guru's were imprisoned and martyred for Hindus-to stop them being converted to anything else against their will. We serve humanity, not just our own.



You most welcome but I think you mean sister [/QUOTE]

I see, that is very tolerant. But "good" to what standard? I'll try not to sway way off-topic but if there was a religion that encouraged hatred and killing of non-believers for example, the people who did all that would be good followers of their religion, but not good people according to our standards. How do we decide where to draw the line?
For example I know some peaceful muslims, yet they will have babies (who cannot consent to anything) circumsized etc. That is a form of harm but they believe they are doing it for a good cause, what is the sikh view on how such act will be judged by God?

Thanks for reply Sister


----------



## Shanger (Nov 13, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> Shanger Ji,
> I would also like to add that Sikhi is a highly spiritual path. It is about realising the wonder of God and connecting to God. It is about becoming so strong and peaceful inside that you can face anything in life in a positive way. Our 5th Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji was tortured and martyred. During the torture he would have been in immense physical pain but it didn't affect him mentally. He said to God, whatever is your will is sweet for me. Sikhi is about developing the conviction of right and wrong that you can do anything for good of this world with a smile. Sikhi is about controlling your emotions so they don't cloud your judgment and Sikhi is about knowing/feeling that you are never alone as God is always with you.
> kudihugkaurhugmundahug



That is very inspiring, but I have always been curious about the validity of such events. I don't doubt that the Gurus were fantastic men of great character and morals, but I wouldn't expect anyone to believe that humans could deal with torture like that without good proof. 

Also I'm not sure if this involved a Guru or a sikh warrior, but I saw/read something else about a sikh who carried on fighting after his head was cut off etc. Is that believed to be true?

Thanks


----------



## Shanger (Nov 13, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Dear Shanger ji
> 
> Thank you for continuing the conversation.   When you ask questions like this is gives us a chance to examine our own beliefs and question if we actually do have it "right" in our own minds.
> 
> ...


Thanks too.

Yeah that makes sense.


Ishna said:


> My view here might be a bit contrary to other Sikhs, but I don't think God really cares about humans, and even less about humans one-to-one.  God doesn't look at me personally and judge or direct.  When I perceive myself connecting to the Divine, I'm filled with feelings of love and bliss and awe and wellbeing.  This is my experience, so I conclude this must be the stuff which God is made up of.  Or at least, what is generated by connecting to It.
> 
> I view karma as a law like gravity or synchronisity or the way the wind blows.  I don't think God has a hand in those forces.  They are there and they do their thing as part of the wonderful myraid of creation.  I think karma is a part of that.



If God doesn't have an interest in humans then what else is there in this world for god to have an interest in? 
Also if God is the creator, then he would of created karma and/or any law in the universe as well don't you think?


Ishna said:


> This is an awesome question!  I don't know the answer, and look forward to other's responses.
> 
> On a strictly personal note, with the disclaimer that I am still relatively new to Sikhi, haven't read too much of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (I read what I can and try to understand but it is a slow process for me), my thoughts are that at the end of the day we're all humans (there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, there is no Sikh or Christian or Buddhist or Scientologist), and it is our truthful living (or not) which will direct our futures in the end.  You don't have to be a Sikh to attain enlightenment.  Sikhi is the toolkit you use to help you on your way to being a good person.  It gives you tips on what to do, strengthens your character, inspires you to be a good person and make good choices.  If someone can get all that out of a religion whose holy book (instead of being full of praise for the Creator) is a list of instructions on who is chosen and who is not, who should be punished or rewarded, who can be controlled, and justifies actions which aren't good, then good luck luck to that person, and they'll achieve the ultimate goal of unity with the Divine.
> 
> ...



I see, but I'm pretty sure nearly every other religious book is full of praise for the creator (if there is one) too. 

You made a similar point to findingmyway regarding people who are god but follow another religion so I will ask the same question for your view-


"But "good" to what standard? I'll try not to sway way off-topic but if there was a religion that encouraged hatred and killing of non-believers for example, the people who did all that would be good followers of their religion, but not good people according to our standards. How do we decide where to draw the line?
For example I know some peaceful muslims, yet they will have babies (who cannot consent to anything) circumsized etc. That is a form of harm but they believe they are doing it for a good cause, what is the sikh view on how such act will be judged by God?"

Thanks for response


----------



## Shanger (Nov 13, 2010)

davinderdhanjal said:


> Dear *Shanger*
> I will try explaining the predicament in a way a simple mind like mine sees it.
> Mool Manter is a good description of god. Basically pointing you towards seeking 'truth'
> I believe the deffinition of god as 'infinity' falls in that catagory. You may check it on the net but goes something like 'the whole is a part of itself'
> Assume the lord as 'infinite number of souls' - every person (all life in fact) has a part of this 'infinite' in them. So you are ' part of god' you have all the abilities that he has if you can find the truth.


Hello. 

Ok I can accept that a part of God is inside us since he created us but-

I would have to disagree that we have all the abilities god has if we find the truth, if God is the creator then he can do anything, from miracles to changing the laws of physics if he pleases etc. I don't think a human can do this. 



davinderdhanjal said:


> Guru Nanak tried to open the eyes of people to this and obviously succeeded as you are looking for it too.
> As the lord has created All and can do Anything - it now is in our control to follow a direction where we track a path which other millions of people are also treading but ensure that we do not hurt eachother.
> Now imagine what is at stake - there are 6 billion people not to mention animals who are also a part of HIM and we should not hurt eachother!


But why should we have to go on this journey? If God is god then he will know what will happen to us, whether we make it or not, whether we become corrupted along the way etc. It is not unreasonable in my opinion to expect God to predict the future since he created everything including concepts such as time. 
Or supposing for some reason god cannot predict the future, does that make human life a kind of movie or experiment?




davinderdhanjal said:


> Once this stage is reached there is a mine of all our Gurus' experiances in The Granth Sahib that would help if it is necessary.
> If anything above makes sense then you can see god does not need to be praised he will praise you for playing your part!
> Bhul chuck Maff Karni




Thanks for reply, look forward to response


----------



## findingmyway (Nov 14, 2010)

Shanger said:


> But surely God being God will know EVERYTHING, meaning God knows everything that will happen since god created everything. So by allowing humans to have free-will god will have been aware of the evils that were inevitable. So why would he allow this?



Who knows!! Without the bad we cannot appreciate the good. If there was no bad, there would be no free will. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want to live as a puppet! When bad happens, that is when true goodness also shines through, eg volunteers, aid workers.



> I see, that is very tolerant. But "good" to what standard? I'll try not to sway way off-topic but if there was a religion that encouraged hatred and killing of non-believers for example, the people who did all that would be good followers of their religion, but not good people according to our standards. How do we decide where to draw the line?
> For example I know some peaceful muslims, yet they will have babies (who cannot consent to anything) circumsized etc. That is a form of harm but they believe they are doing it for a good cause, what is the sikh view on how such act will be judged by God?
> Thanks for reply Sister



Good is when doing good for others and standing up against wrong. Religion is there to bring people together and provide internal peace/spiritual guidance. People who use religion to justify other things are often just using it as an excuse. I cant comment on circumcision as although I personally don't condone it, it does no longterm harm. Female genital mutilation as frequently carried out in Africa on the other hand, is painful lifelong as well as causing other damage. That is something I have campaigned against. God does not judge-God is not a person. People judge. People who do wrong things don't acheive the ultimate peace/spirituality that we aim for-they get sidetracked by distractions.

In response to your some of your other comments; when the laws were created by God, when the laws of physics are God, why should they change?!! God is not a person or entity but is present throughout creation. This is a difficult concept to get aaround if you are used to the personifcation of God in other religions. Again why predict the future. Even if God can predict the future (but God is the future) then why? What would it achieve? God is the wind in the leaves. God is the waterfall you admire. God is in everything!

I also suggest you do some reading about martyrdom in the Sikh history section. If you do a search for Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Baba Deep Singh or Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji you will get your answers. Bear in mind that our history is less than 600 years old so there are reliable eyewitness accounts -it is fact not mythology. If you still have questions, feel free to ask.
Jasleen.


----------



## Shanger (Nov 14, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> Who knows!! Without the bad we cannot appreciate the good. If there was no bad, there would be no free will. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want to live as a puppet! When bad happens, that is when true goodness also shines through, eg volunteers, aid workers.



Using "without the bad we cannot appreciate the good" cannot justify the fact that God allowed or created an environment mixing good and bad people in my view. Also that could be used as an excuse for many things, such as I could hurt someone physically so that when they heal they feel better and appreciate not being hurt any more. Also many people live such lives that they have no good to appreciate.



> Good is when doing good for others and standing up against wrong. Religion is there to bring people together and provide internal peace/spiritual guidance. People who use religion to justify other things are often just using it as an excuse. I cant comment on circumcision as although I personally don't condone it, it does no longterm harm. Female genital mutilation as frequently carried out in Africa on the other hand, is painful lifelong as well as causing other damage. That is something I have campaigned against. God does not judge-God is not a person. People judge. People who do wrong things don't acheive the ultimate peace/spirituality that we aim for-they get sidetracked by distractions.



If God does not judge then there is no point in religion. However my view of Sikhi suggests god does judge, as it is believed that you become closer to god by being a good person, and you beocme further away when you are bad, it's semantics really.





> In response to your some of your other comments; when the laws were created by God, when the laws of physics are God, why should they change?!! God is not a person or entity but is present throughout creation. This is a difficult concept to get aaround if you are used to the personifcation of God in other religions. Again why predict the future. Even if God can predict the future (but God is the future) then why? What would it achieve? God is the wind in the leaves. God is the waterfall you admire. God is in everything!



What I am saying is that, God being the creator of everything in this universe, can not be surprised as he has made everything if he is god. He will know what is going to happen, so is there even a point of having free-will? For example God puts me on the planet, he knows where I will end up. Or are you suggesting that if I went from a bad person to a good person God will change his plans/overall view of me? 



> I also suggest you do some reading about martyrdom in the Sikh history section. If you do a search for Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Baba Deep Singh or Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji you will get your answers. Bear in mind that our history is less than 600 years old so there are reliable eyewitness accounts -it is fact not mythology. If you still have questions, feel free to ask.
> Jasleen.



Ok will do, thanks.


----------



## findingmyway (Nov 14, 2010)

Shanger said:


> Using "without the bad we cannot appreciate the good" cannot justify the fact that God allowed or created an environment mixing good and bad people in my view. Also that could be used as an excuse for many things, such as I could hurt someone physically so that when they heal they feel better and appreciate not being hurt any more. Also many people live such lives that they have no good to appreciate.



If you hurt someone to use that excuse then you are defying God's will and doing as you please. Many people do this but it does not justify their actions. His Will is that we become good people of our own accord without being forced into it. That is where the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is useful as it provides guidance on how to follow a path to become a good person. You cannot compare your actions to God but can aspire to imbibe the good qualities more detailed in Mool Mantar. 



> If God does not judge then there is no point in religion. However my view of Sikhi suggests god does judge, as it is believed that you become closer to god by being a good person, and you beocme further away when you are bad, it's semantics really.



As I said its a pathway. Sikhi is not a religion in the traditional sense, more moral guidance and advice on becoming a spiritual being. Spirituality helps one achieve ultimate peace and happiness. Moving closer or further from realising God makes us happier/less satisfied, not God so it has nothing to do with God judging us. God is not a person that can judge.



> What I am saying is that, God being the creator of everything in this universe, can not be surprised as he has made everything if he is god. He will know what is going to happen, so is there even a point of having free-will? For example God puts me on the planet, he knows where I will end up. Or are you suggesting that if I went from a bad person to a good person God will change his plans/overall view of me?



We choose our own path according to our actions. Stop personifying Waheguru!! Let go of your preconceived notions from Christianity or whatever you have had experience with


----------



## davinderdhanjal (Nov 15, 2010)

Shanger said:


> I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.
> 
> 
> 1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.
> ...


Shanger ji,
              Thank you for your questions and clarifications on Sikhi. 
I will add my penny's worth.
Guru Granth Sahib is a guru - it has direction, support, pointers and examples to guide you through your journey of life. Being a guru in this form it caters for someone like me who knows nothing to say Phd who wants to research into origins of the world or god. When a child asks a question off a parent he would get the answer to the specfic question. Here you are expected to know or learn 'sikh' to find your answer by delving into the 'Book'. Because it covers innumerable aspects we need to know what to look - that is where we look to experts in that field. These experts we know have very different agendas. So we need to have a verification route i.e. we also be able to find the answer ourselves - again we learn and learn till we get there. However the simpler we keep it the better.
Praise
When we get the answer we may think I already know that and we do not thank people for that or if we learn something that is helpful we do. Our gurus knowing infinitly more than I do found from HIM information to help them and millions of us - why would they not praise him and also to tell us it is worth praising than say killing humanity.
Reward and Punishment
This is a matter of understanding and interpretation of the scriptures.
Assume you have to reach somewhere and there are no paths, you do not know if there will be food, water would it be free of danger, would there be shelter?
If you could look at your surroundings make use of the 'tools' available to you i.e. say sun, moon, stars - hills all - you may find an acceptable route and get there. However if you were blind your tools may be different and through the journey you may enjoy yourself in the sweet smelling meadows, feed birds and so on or you may get bogged in a swamp end up in cold inhospitable place and curse all - could this be reward punishment scenario. 
By doing 'good deeds that please god' you are orienting yourself to a pattern that you and HIM can understand and download 'tools' from the link all that helps you for free. (You can easily otherwise end up on a 'site' where you end up paying for something useless.) The link and pattern that you establish, if good, would also help countless others when they see your example of leading a smooth journey i.e 'good person' getting somewhere. (I liken this to driving on a road or motorway if you drive carefully - with courtesy, indicators and giving other bikes and cars the space - people behind you will do the same - try it out!)
Emotions
Lord is infinite in all senses of the word including love and hate. What you see as 'evil' is the path you have chosen, a Bush may blow up Bagdad or a surgeon may save life. (This path has to be cultivated as described above). Do not drop this in Lord's lap! You have two hands, feet and mind and they can be used.
Why did he send Gurus to India?
I think the Lord must be having a hard time of this!
After sending 10 gurus and countless slaps and up lifts - endless help - it has made no difference to the sikhs - all they can do is to manufature holes in a seamles sheet (say dasam granth). We have a saying 'natch na jane angen teda'.
To be serious a tree sheds its seeds close by where it knows the environment and climate is suitable. I think we may need to investigate this further in the Granth Sahib.
Hindu Idols
I am not completey with this - these beliefs are included to make us understand that even with untold wisdom at our doorstep there are people who find destruction better than construction. Right through the life journey of our gurus an element of this philosphy has interfered and infiltraed in Sikism to corupt it by attempts to produce parallel sakhis to satisfy their vanity, stood in the way of the gurus by obstructing their way to the Places of worship They Built for us! These people are here with us - may be not human with elephant's head but similar traits. This can only be combatted by TRUTH humilty and recognition of the sacrifies of of Gurus and their glorious followers who has made some of us proud to be Sikhs.


----------



## davinderdhanjal (Nov 15, 2010)

Shanger said:


> Hello.
> 
> Ok I can accept that a part of God is inside us since he created us but-
> 
> ...


Shanger Ji,
                 Not being familiar with blog yet I posted another reply before I saw further questions you posed.

                   The difference between an alive person and a dead  person is 'the god part' in the dead person goes back to GOD and becomes part of the INFINITY - that infinty can do anything! As our  gurus have said only by finding the truth you get out of the cycle of  birth and rebirth. That would take you to a stage where our gurus  were - and you know they could do a lot of things that god can but what was the  need? Please read Gurus' sakhis - they did leave a lot of examples to convince us that is  possible.


```
But why should we have to go on this journey? If God is god then he will  know what will happen to us, whether we make it or not, whether we  become corrupted along the way etc. It is not unreasonable in my opinion  to expect God to predict the future since he created everything  including concepts such as time. 
Or supposing for some reason god cannot predict the future, does that make human life a kind of movie or experiment?
```
       We  are here and now - I guess we cant just sit around and be lost sheep- HE has made us with  abilities and form to contribute to the humanity and the world. If we  are a part of him possibly to bring his message and help all we can  influence (at least our immediate family and friends etc.). This is the journey -  I do not know why but am pleased he chose us! For all you know we might have  done something to his liking the last time but not quite enough and now we have another chance to see if we can improve on that this time!!

Thanks and hoping that helps and please find the other reply elswhere.


----------



## Shanger (Nov 17, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> If you hurt someone to use that excuse then you are defying God's will and doing as you please. Many people do this but it does not justify their actions. His Will is that we become good people of our own accord without being forced into it. That is where the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is useful as it provides guidance on how to follow a path to become a good person. You cannot compare your actions to God but can aspire to imbibe the good qualities more detailed in Mool Mantar.



This comes back to my original point, if it is in Gods will for there to be goodness/peace everywhere, then why make a world where there is a mix of good and bad?

You're saying that gods will it that we do it of our own accord, many people will not, so why does God feel the need to put them on this earth?



> As I said its a pathway. Sikhi is not a religion in the traditional sense, more moral guidance and advice on becoming a spiritual being. Spirituality helps one achieve ultimate peace and happiness. Moving closer or further from realising God makes us happier/less satisfied, not God so it has nothing to do with God judging us. God is not a person that can judge.



We strive to break the reincarnation cycle right? By being as good as we possibly can be. 

Therefore God does judge us, it is basically from my understanding, act good and reach salvation or act bad and carry on reincarnating as plants/rocks etc. 

Saying that god does not judge us is like me saying that-
"you must sign a new contract for your job which gives you a paycut and demands harder work, you must sign if you want to stay.
therefore it is your choice whether you remain an employee"

i'm not saying that what God is askin of us is unreasonable (as sikhi promotes good morals etc), but that it does seem a threat, meaning god reacts to our actions and is unable to control us despite creating everything.



> We choose our own path according to our actions. Stop personifying Waheguru!! Let go of your preconceived notions from Christianity or whatever you have had experience with



No I am basing what I am saying on my understandings of sikhism. 

Yes we choose our own path* only* if we do what God tells us to, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). Conflicting with the idea of god in my opinion, as if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy to take such action as to promote/relegate us in the reincarnation cycle.

also thanks for the reply davinderdhanjal i will respond shortly


----------



## Shanger (Nov 17, 2010)

davinderdhanjal said:


> Shanger ji,
> Thank you for your questions and clarifications on Sikhi.
> I will add my penny's worth.


Thanks, hello. 



> Praise
> When we get the answer we may think I already know that and we do not thank people for that or if we learn something that is helpful we do. Our gurus knowing infinitly more than I do found from HIM information to help them and millions of us - why would they not praise him and also to tell us it is worth praising than say killing humanity.


My point is that, just because someone does not pray, does not mean they will do something evil instead. 

Also since God created everything is there a need to praise him? God cannot be insecure or a narcissist as that would conflict with the idea of god in my opinion. 




> Reward and Punishment
> This is a matter of understanding and interpretation of the scriptures.
> Assume you have to reach somewhere and there are no paths, you do not know if there will be food, water would it be free of danger, would there be shelter?
> 
> If you could look at your surroundings make use of the 'tools' available to you i.e. say sun, moon, stars - hills all - you may find an acceptable route and get there. However if you were blind your tools may be different and through the journey you may enjoy yourself in the sweet smelling meadows, feed birds and so on or you may get bogged in a swamp end up in cold inhospitable place and curse all - could this be reward punishment scenario.



I'm not sure I understand how the example you have just given fits in with the reward/punishment scenario. 

Are you saying that using the available tools on that path is the same as doing good deeds to get to your path to god?




> By doing 'good deeds that please god' you are orienting yourself to a pattern that you and HIM can understand and download 'tools' from the link all that helps you for free. (You can easily otherwise end up on a 'site' where you end up paying for something useless.) The link and pattern that you establish, if good, would also help countless others when they see your example of leading a smooth journey i.e 'good person' getting somewhere. (I liken this to driving on a road or motorway if you drive carefully - with courtesy, indicators and giving other bikes and cars the space - people behind you will do the same - try it out!)



I absolutely understand the benefit to humanity of doing good deeds. It is just that it gives god very human characteristics if he can become pleased/sad at our actions? Which makes me wonder why he would torture himself by creating this world as there is so much evil.


----------



## Shanger (Nov 17, 2010)

davinderdhanjal said:


> The difference between an alive person and a dead  person is 'the god part' in the dead person goes back to GOD and becomes part of the INFINITY - that infinty can do anything! As our  gurus have said only by finding the truth you get out of the cycle of  birth and rebirth. That would take you to a stage where our gurus  were - and you know they could do a lot of things that god can but what was the  need? Please read Gurus' sakhis - they did leave a lot of examples to convince us that is  possible.



Ok I will read. So you believe the Gurus could perform miracles?




> We  are here and now - I guess we cant just sit around and be lost sheep- HE has made us with  abilities and form to contribute to the humanity and the world. If we  are a part of him possibly to bring his message and help all we can  influence (at least our immediate family and friends etc.). This is the journey -  I do not know why but am pleased he chose us! For all you know we might have  done something to his liking the last time but not quite enough and now we have another chance to see if we can improve on that this time!!
> 
> Thanks and hoping that helps and please find the other reply elswhere.



But what you have just said makes it seem like God created us, and then sat back and HOPED that we would do good deeds? Objectively speaking can you say that you could understand that behaviour from the force responsible for creating the world?


----------



## findingmyway (Nov 18, 2010)

Shanger said:


> This comes back to my original point, if it is in Gods will for there to be goodness/peace everywhere, then why make a world where there is a mix of good and bad?
> 
> You're saying that gods will it that we do it of our own accord, many people will not, so why does God feel the need to put them on this earth?



That is the beauty of free will. Also as I have said time and gain the bad is due to people's actions, not God. We need to take responsibility for ouselves rather than passing the buck.



> We strive to break the reincarnation cycle right? By being as good as we possibly can be.
> 
> Therefore God does judge us, it is basically from my understanding, act good and reach salvation or act bad and carry on reincarnating as plants/rocks etc.



You have completely misunderstood reincarnation. Sikhi believes in rebirth not reincarnaton. They are very different so I suggest you do some reading! 



> i'm not saying that what God is askin of us is unreasonable (as sikhi promotes good morals etc), but that it does seem a threat, meaning god reacts to our actions and is unable to control us despite creating everything.



This is personifying God. Ik Oankar does not judge as Ik Oankar is part of everything on this planet and beyond. Ik Oankar does not have emotions as that would make him like animals. If God was a controlling person, what would be the point of life!



> Yes we choose our own path* only* if we do what God tells us to, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). Conflicting with the idea of god in my opinion, as if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy to take such action as to promote/relegate us in the reincarnation cycle.



We don't affect him, we affect ourselves. Again you are personaifying Ik Oankar. The only way to alleviate your lack of understanding is to start understanding the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and start reading around. There is a wealth of information on this site. Understanding takes time-that is why we are Sikhs, all of us are still learning! Understanding gurbani is a hige task and takes a lifetime. Asking a few questions will not clear your thoughts as you don't have the background knowledge to understand the answers. I suggest you first start looking at the mool mantar. Don't just rely on 1 English translation as they are often quite poor, try looking at several translations and also see what people have to say on this site and at your local Gurdwara. 
Best wishes,
Jasleen


----------



## Shanger (Nov 21, 2010)

Ok I will come back to this thread once I have read more so I can come back with knowledge/quotes if necessary to avoid us going in circles.

thanks


----------



## davinderdhanjal (Nov 22, 2010)

Shanger Ji,

_(But what you have just said makes it seem like God created us, and then  sat back and HOPED that we would do good deeds? Objectively speaking can  you say that you could understand that behaviour from the force  responsible for creating the world?)_

If this is what you understood from what I wrote then we have a slight problem or you are just wet around the ears!
Do you know there is a woman who does not have arms but she has a baby that she looks after like a two handed mother! She has not understood what you say about the Lord and I am sure she does not complain to him about her disability - she would not have had the child if she did. If she thought like you she would be begging in the streets.
I consider this as *an example* to the world of what the lord can do for those who want to help themselves. I would put her in the catagory *of saint*s.
Sometimes we have to move forward from thoughts to doing something practical to gain the Lord's help and direction as SHE has done.
YouTube        - Most amazing mother ever! No hands!
See and hear her!!
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZuKF3dxCY&NR=1


----------



## Shanger (Nov 22, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> You have completely misunderstood reincarnation. Sikhi believes in rebirth not reincarnaton. They are very different so I suggest you do some reading!


Oh yeah-

I don't understand, checked on wiki



> Reincarnation is believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, comes back to life in a newborn body.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation



> In Sikhism, it is thought that due to the commendable past actions and deeds (known as karma or kirat) that people obtain the chance of human birth, which is regarded in Sikhism as the highest possible opportunity on Earth and therefore should not be wasted. Only by continued good actions and the "Grace of the Almighty" can one obtain liberation from the continuous cycle of births and deaths of various bodily forms that the soul has been undergoing since the creation of the universe. The end of the cycle of transmigration of the soul is known as mukti. For Sikhs, the state of mukti can be achieved whilst still alive, known as "Jivan Mukat", literally "liberated whilst alive".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saṃsāra#Sa.E1.B9.85s.C4.81ra_in_Sikhism



> The soul will have lived through many lives and will have inhabited many different forms before eventually being born in a human body.


http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikh_Beliefs#Mukti_or_Salvation

rebirth doesn't sound much different from reincarnation at all?


----------



## Shanger (Nov 22, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> Charity work is a type of praying as you are working to look after God's creation. One of the 3 pillars of Sikhi is seva-selfless service. As Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji said, kirtan is not just singing His praises but following advice in the Granth Sahib to become a better person. *If someone stays on the right path without guidance, good for them!*




Also going back to this point, is it really possible to be a good person and find god without praying?

I ask this because I'm sure I remember reading a shabad that said one can only reach salvation by meditating on the name of naam? I could be mistaken

Also this



> || 1 || Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord - I do not even want to see them. || 1 || Pause || Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord, are nothing more than beasts. |


http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg112.htm

Is this a metaphor I do not understand? Or a message to atheists/agnostics etc? Or does the 2nd line suggest it is referring only to bad people who by being bad are not in harmony with the lord?


----------



## spnadmin (Nov 22, 2010)

Shanger ji

It is not possible to interpret the single verse outside of the context of the Shabad. Right now I would love to do that but do not have time. 



> || 1 || Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord - I do not even want to see them. || 1 || Pause || Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord, are nothing more than beasts. |
> 
> http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg112.htm
> 
> Is this a metaphor I do not understand? Or a message to atheists/agnostics etc? Or does the 2nd line suggest it is referring only to bad people who by being bad are not in harmony with the lord?



I am not going to blame the translation. Rather,  to do a proper analysis of this shabad, there are some things are needed for context. The shabad is a message to all of us. The message is: "Engage yourself in the deepest devotion."

The shabad is using Hindu imagery. The shabad is also composed by the Bhagat Nam Dev. Bhagat Nam Dev was a leading figure in the Bhakti movement of Northern India, which roughly occurred before and during the time of Guru Nanak. The Bhakti movement criticized the caste system, tended to see the Divine in the form of a single deity, understood the deity to be the "parabraham" or all pervading divine principle, and taught deep devotion rather than idolatry.

Therefore to understand what is referred in the verse and in the shabad, one needs to know the story of Nam Dev. And yes the language is employing metaphors and symbolism that are specific to the Vedantic system of philosophy (e.g., | Prays Naam Dayv, a man without a nose does not look handsome, even if he has the thirty-two beauty marks). And they should not be taken literally. Sorry to give you a rushed reply.  

Essentially the line you cite is a poetic rejection of ritualistic worship and idolatry. Nam Dev is saying that this is not true bhagati/devotion and the Lord does not want to see it or hear it. Actually will not give "darshan."

By exploring the development of the images in the shabad, and how one idea leads to the next, you get a better sense of that single line. When you read more about Nam Dev it becomes clearer too. I would encourage you - though some may be shocked - to read Hindu sources on Nam Dev, as well as Sikh sources, to get the full measure of his impact on the Bhakti movement. Life sketches/janamsakkhis of the bhagats often give a distorted view of their contributions to the Guru Granth. Nam Dev was an ardent believer in Krishna; however, he also rejected idol worship.


----------



## spnadmin (Nov 22, 2010)

Back now and here is what I make of the shabad in question in its entirety, Shanger ji.

All the elements of the Bhakti devotional tradition are found in the shabad. When you read through you can see these principles of Bhakti enunciated in the Gitas: 

(Verse. 3) “Those who search my imperishable, invisible, unmanifest, omnipresent, beyond the limits of imaginations and yet permanent and hidden form (Spirit or soul) are also my devotees”. (V-3). For such devotees Lord indicates a three point plan (formula or path) in verse N0. 4.

(Verse. 4) “Those who search me via search of self (Atman) and soul can also see me in following way: (1) They have to control 10 organs- 5 sense organs and 5 organs of actions, plus mind and intellect; (2) They have to develop an attitude of equality for all living beings, (namely all living human beings, animals and plants) (3) They have to ever remain active in benevolent deeds for the welfare of all beings and creations during their entire life. Then such devotees can see my infinite form”. (V-4).

So how do we find this in the shabad of Sant Namdev.

Stanzas 1 and 2 Namdev threatens    his tongue with physical harm. He is actually speaking to all of us. This is only figuratively a threat, of course. Taste is one of the senses and the tongue is the organ for taste, and ultimately over indulgence in food. He says to his tongue,  " Chant,"  do  immerse yourself, Tongue,  in devotion to sri govind, instead, because sri govind is the wondrous seed of the universe. Govind also stands for spiritual wisdom. 

ਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਕਰਉ ਸਤ ਖੰਡ ॥
rae jihabaa karo sath khandd ||
O my tongue, I will cut you into a hundred pieces,


ਜਾਮਿ ਨ ਉਚਰਸਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥੧॥
jaam n oucharas sree gobindh ||1||
if you do not chant the Name of the Lord. ||1||


Stanzas 3 and 4, Namdev says the tongue (all of us) should instead be "imbued" / drenched in the name of Hari, the Lord.  The rehao line makes more obvious that not only the tongue but all of our consciousness should be imbued with the "this most excellent color" /meaning dyed with the love of Haree.

ਰੰਗੀ ਲੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਨਾਇ ॥
rangee lae jihabaa har kai naae ||
O my tongue, be imbued with the Lord's Name.

ਸੁਰੰਗ ਰੰਗੀਲੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
surang rangeelae har har dhhiaae ||1|| rehaao ||
Meditate on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, and imbue yourself with this most excellent color. ||1||Pause||

Stanzas 5 and 6. Here again the tongue is used only as metaphor for all of our body and mind. We have a tendency to busy ourselves with the material world and our  false views of reality, Maya. If the tongue (we) were to recite the name of the One God Haree, then the tongue (we) would achieve consciousness of God, become Godly. It is only through this meditation, according to the bhagats of Nam Dev's time, that one achieves nirvana, or the "step" of nirvana which is the stage at which a devotee achieves realization of God. Everything else is false. 

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਅਵਰੇਂ ਕਾਮ ॥
mithhiaa jihabaa avaraen kaam ||
O my tongue, other occupations are false.


ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਇਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥
nirabaan padh eik har ko naam ||2||
The state of Nirvaanaa comes only through the Lord's Name. ||2||


Stanza 7 and 8. Bhagat Namdev teaches that all other forms of worship and "devotion" or pooja are nothing compared to total devotion and immersion in the Naamai Haree, God's name.

ਅਸੰਖ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੀ ॥
asankh kott an poojaa karee ||
The performance of countless millions of other devotions

ਏਕ ਨ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥
eaek n poojas naamai haree ||3||
is not equal to even one devotion to the Name of the Lord. ||3||

Stanzas 9. Namdev says this is his one and only blessed deed  or karanaa - to be a faithful devotee of God.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਇਹੁ ਕਰਣਾ ॥
pranavai naamadhaeo eihu karanaa ||
Prays Naam Dayv, this is my occupation.

Stanza 10 Namdev says God/Haree your forms are endless/naaraaeinaa.

ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥੪॥੧॥
ananth roop thaerae naaraaeinaa ||4||1||
O Lord, Your Forms are endless. ||4||1||

Stanza 11 and 12. He then gives the moral teaching consistent with the Bhakti philosophy. Those of us who give up greed and lust, those are the ones who are able to take refuge in Haree.

ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥
par dhhan par dhaaraa pareharee ||
One who stays away from others' wealth and others' spouses

ਤਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਨਰਹਰੀ ॥੧॥
thaa kai nikatt basai nareharee ||1||
- the Lord abides near that person. ||1||

Stanzas 13 and 14 Namdev speaks to those who do not "meditate and vibrate"/actually sing bhajans (bhajanthae). Bhajans are mantras in praise of a deity and are set to music and meant to be sung in sangat.  The verse in English says, "I do not want to see them." This means, however, to those people I will not give darshan (Namdev will only give darshan to those who are serious about their devotion.) This is a second rehao line and is therefore very important. It is important to remember that Namdev is writing this as if he is the one who is speaking it. However, he is actually stating that those who are not faithful and devout will not receive darshan of Haree. In the end, they will not achieve God Conciousness.

ਜੋ ਨ ਭਜੰਤੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥
jo n bhajanthae naaraaeinaa ||
Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord

ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਰਉ ਦਰਸਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thin kaa mai n karo dharasanaa ||1|| rehaao ||
- I do not even want to see them. ||1||Pause||

Stanza 15 and 16 He says that if someone cannot be in harmony, in tune, with the divine, that person then still possesses an animal nature. In other words, it is only through faith, devotion and consciousness of the divine that we become truly human.

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹੈ ਅੰਤਰਾ ॥
jin kai bheethar hai antharaa ||
Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord,



ਜੈਸੇ ਪਸੁ ਤੈਸੇ ਓਇ ਨਰਾ ॥੨॥
jaisae pas thaisae oue naraa ||2||
are nothing more than beasts. ||2||


Stanzas 17 and 18. This image  of the nose and the beauty marks is very much a powerful teaching of an important idea in the Bhakti movement. A man without a nose cannot breathe properly. The nose in this stanza is  the organ that brings in air, which is the pranayam, or spiritual energy. The 32 beauty marks refer to the 32 qualities that Hindus believed were evidence of a moral nature. A person could have only a few indicators of a moral life, or all 32. But Namdev is saying that even this is academic. Even a moral person must imbue the essence of Haree through devotion.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਨਾਕਹਿ ਬਿਨਾ ॥
pranavath naamadhaeo naakehi binaa ||
Prays Naam Dayv, a man without a nose


ਨਾ ਸੋਹੈ ਬਤੀਸ ਲਖਨਾ ॥੩॥੨॥
naa sohai bathees lakhanaa ||3||2||
does not look handsome, even if he has the thirty-two beauty marks. ||3||2||

*In one sentence, Bhagat Nam Dev is saying if you do not give up your indulgence in the material world of sensation, and drench yourself in devotion to the naam,  you never will achieve the state of god consciousness. Hope that helps with your question.*


----------



## findingmyway (May 15, 2019)

Do not use Sikiwiki as your source of information. It is very unreliable!


----------



## Sikhilove1 (Aug 13, 2019)

Shanger said:


> I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.
> 
> 
> 1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.
> ...



It seems that you haven’t read gurbani enough or bothered enough to understand its meaning properly.

Sit, read it, meditate on it. Gurbani askes you to practice Truth in action.. be a good soul, do good deeds.

You will discover the khel, it’s laws, who you really are, which is Truth. Do an ardas and go into deep meditation. Discover who you are. We are One, drop in the Ocean and Ocean in the drop.

God is everything because He is Truth. He created us out of Unconditional Love. We are also Truth. That’s what you need to realise instead of pointing at him like He’s a Narcissist. You need to understand True All pervading Unconditional Love. Karam works to the laws of the universe, God is not punishing you, we sow what we reap, even Jesus taught that Truth.


----------

