# What Responsibility Do We Have To Keep Sikhi As Guruji Intended, And Who Can Definitively Say What T



## Harry Haller (Feb 23, 2012)

My behaviour over the last few weeks is vexing me, it is causing me concern. 

I did not join this forum to correct others, or impose my view of Sikhism on another, I did not join to discover answers to my own questions and then force others to accept my answers, yet I increasingly find my posts becoming quite forceful, sarcastic, to those whose views I do not agree with. In particular I am finding myself more and more frustrated by the growing Hinduism within Sikhism, and I find myself getting quite irritated by views that I feel are misplaced and misguided, I am getting to the point where I just want to get along with everyone and respect the individuality of all, and the views of all, but how can I do this when such views, I feel are tainting the opinions of people coming into Sikhi, looking for answers, and who am I to set a standard, or even uphold a standard, when there is so much difference of opinion. 

Is it Sikh like to defend what I feel is right, even though they remain my own personal opinions, or is it Sikh like to police opinion so that it is in line with what I believe in

Thoughts please


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 23, 2012)

Harry Haller veer ji great question.

I believe in a simpler version of what it is that we stand for or a Sikh stands for?  



> Recognizing wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and using it to develop ways for living among rest of creation in consonance.


We need to recognize that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a recipe book and lot of the issues come when people treat it so.  People see name of a Hindu God, a reference to Hell or Heaven, a reference to many or 8,400,000 life forms.  Right away it starts to go tangential.  The logic being if if it is mentioned then it creates confirmation of such existence.  When one does not relate to wisdom but to words and in generally out of context, lot of bad things happen and it is basically a way to diminish the wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and slowly sow seeds for its marginalization.

As Sikhs I do not believe it is for us to diminish or undermine other religions.  In the same token, if Guru ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have clarified misconceptions whether religious or not, we cannot simply ignore these either to be politically correct.  This specially applies in discourse, posting, expressions in different media.  Sikhism is like Salmon in pool full of huge sharks or traditional religions.  Sikhism maneuvers around these sharks who are bent on destroying it in a meal.  Even when the sharks recognize the beauty of Salmon because they believe in their arrogance of bigness, it matters not.  People are not blind of thought, they choose not to see or accept.  It is OK for such people at personal level.  However if they are going to show up as pious of the pious and bad and you can see right through it, such need to be called.

Sikhs, Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji stands for something.  If we are thankful for the blessing we have received from Guru ji and in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it behooves upon us to be at least minimally thankful so that it does not go by the wayside.  Being thankful is declaring your learning, lsitening to criticism and defending as appropriate.  Sikhism is not a passive or submissive state of mind although with the practices and injections of exterior influences large number of people are moving towards the easy way out and forgetting what it means to be a Sikh.

Bit of rambling but let me know and be free to comment as always.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 23, 2012)

Harry Ji,

I think its really important foremost to acknowledge our own incompleteness, our own flaws first. Everyone has them, as people. And imo, thats what you should look at when looking at another; the person, the intent of their heart, not just what they're screaming at the top of their lungs. You screaming back does nothing but take YOU out of your conviction. And that conviction should not be so prone to emotion, so insecure that just anybody can set it off, your not a puppet. Second, Sikhi itself is a greater force than any individual person can claim, rely on that rather than thinking or attempting to defend or carry the ideology on your own. 

and you know what they say, let bygones be bygones.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 23, 2012)

lol two very different replies, both of which I completely agree with! which in essence is the root of the problem!


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 23, 2012)

Navdeep88 ji I greatly dislike this one line not because you post it but it is a general line used in many Kathas and by many Kathavachiks.  So please nothing personal with you.



> I think its really important foremost to acknowledge our own incompleteness, our own flaws first.


_This line creates a mental picture of disgrace, I seen young people listening just turn into passive blobs, this is the most damaging trend supported by the passivity is Sikhism approach.  Sikhism is uplifting.  It does not need to hanker on or belittle Sikhs of a focus on finding own faults and about how bad they really are.__  Sikhs need to take pride in how well off they are and how blessed and relatively better off they are in spirituality thanks due to Guru ji and SGGS._

Such situations bother me a lot and I feel helpless and I usually get up and leave.

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> lol two very different replies, both of which I completely agree with! which in essence is the root of the problem!


Harry veer are you shy on CPU or Storage.  Both are free and we are already equipped to increase either at our whim.  No need for lobotomy.peacesign

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 23, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Navdeep88 ji I greatly dislike this one line not because you post it but it is a general line used in many Kathas and by many Kathavachiks.  So please nothing personal with you.
> 
> _This line creates a mental picture of disgrace, I seen young people listening just turn into passive blobs, this is the most damaging trend supported by the passivity is Sikhism approach.  Sikhism is uplifting.  It does not need to hanker on or belittle Sikhs of a focus on finding own faults and about how bad they really are.__  Sikhs need to take pride in how well off they are and how blessed and relatively better off they are in spirituality thanks due to Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji._
> 
> ...




Oh really, I feel its not about feeling bad about who you are, but about humility. you however are free to take it as you like, not my problem. i wrote what i wrote from my heart, if that somehow irks you or makes you uncomfortable, you're free to ignore it. 

like i said let bygones be bygones, i have no issue being a bygone for you. chao.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 23, 2012)

Navdeep88 ji I generally find Sikhs as an ocean of humility bar some of course.  At perhaps on par with Buddhism pacifists.  So I honestly believe that the focus on good and great in Silks is missive and that is what bothers me.  This is not make others feel bad but to make self in a state of mind that creates positive energy to do much positive.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 23, 2012)

"Such situations bother me a lot and I feel helpless and I usually get up and leave."

I'm about to say something that may come off as hurtful so apologies in advance. maybe you feel that way b/c you're afraid of your emotions.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 23, 2012)

Navdeep88 said:


> "Such situations bother me a lot and I feel helpless and I usually get up and leave."
> 
> I'm about to say something that may come off as hurtful so apologies in advance. _maybe you feel that way b/c you're afraid of your emotions._


Not at all. My feelings are genuine and did not develop in one visit but over very many years.  I can put such elements of Katha aside but feel for others.  May be I should not and they may be doing what I do. I am not an Amritdhari Sikh whose interjections would be much appreciated if I spoke up at such times.  That is my handicap.  That is all.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 23, 2012)

Cool then, you got yours and I got mine. nice meeting you, and good luck.


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## Luckysingh (Feb 23, 2012)

Reading both Navdeep's and Ambarsaria's views I think I can understand both points.
In your own sense, you are both correct.
I believe it has a lot to do with PERSONALITY. We all have different personalities, strengths and weaknesses. If we didn't, life could be pretty boring.

It is these differences in personalities that play a huge role in how we get along with one another. We have to make room for each other, a little give and take along the way.

I mean, if me and my wife had the exact same personalities, let's say we both liked same colours, food, music, cars, art, I mean we both had the exact same habits. We would eventually find it difficult to get along. Our life would become quite boring, there would be no give and take.

Just like in the above posts, we mention _humility_
Now to many of us, certainly me, being humble and conquering my EGO becomes easier if I keep reminding myself 'I'm no good, everyone else is better' etc......etc..... However, some (Ambarsaria ji) don't like to think this way..They can be humble and conquer their own ego's in a different manner.. THIS IS GOOD. 
As this positive attitude keeps you in a good mental and physical shape. Staying well away from neagtivies. It brings confidence and keeps you away from your own fears(negativity). I say fears, as I think our personal fears have another huge role, conquering your fears also brings positive, success and generally the best out of your own personality
.
Navdeep mentions '_being afraid of your emotions'_- This is correct, it's very similar to, being afraid of your fears, and we overcome this by A) not allowing them to dominate or come into the limelight, by staying in the opposite more positive direction (Ambarsaria's comment) or B) facing them, accepting them and then convincing ourselves that the FEAR is JUST A PERCEPTION, that we have self created. Thus by lowering self esteem, trying to be humble, convincing one-self that I am not as worthy as those around me etc.. etc ....-then eventually the person overcomes this perception of fear.

Humilty,ego and fear all go hand in hand. There is no right or wrong way of conquering your ego and fears.

This is just my personal view, it is not learned and may well be wrong.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
Read SGGS as many times as you can and only try to listen what GuRu is saying.
I am sure you will come out of this confusion of your own.Since this will be your own conviction thru GuRu.You will never feel diturbed at all.
P.S..If possible read Gurmukhi version of SGGS .

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## navneetk (Feb 24, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLAR Ji,
> Read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as many times as you can and only try to listen what GuRu is saying.
> I am sure you will come out of this confusion of your own.Since this will be your own conviction thru GuRu.You will never feel diturbed at all.
> P.S..If possible read Gurmukhi version of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> ...



I endorse and second the views of Prakash singh ji.


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## BaljinderS (Feb 24, 2012)

Ambarsaria/Harry veer ji,

I know exactly where you are coming from.  I have read all your posts.  I agree with 99.9 of what you say.  Again efforts are made by others divert and distract you because you speak the truth.  Keep up the good work, its really appreciated :blueturban:


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

BaljinderS said:


> Ambarsaria/Harry veer ji,
> 
> I know exactly where you are coming from.  I have read all your posts.  I agree with 99.9 of what you say.  Again efforts are made by others divert and distract you because you speak the truth.  Keep up the good work, its really appreciated :blueturban:


BaljinderS veer thanks.  People do treat us as babies sometimes, which is unfortunate for them.  

Another line of distraction is "just read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and do nothing".  You can see its application by Prakash.S.Bagga ji often.  While inherently obviously not wrong statement.  It puts all actions of practical nature into oblivion and perpetuates the mess for eternity and waits for the perfect moment when everyone would have read and understood Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and problems will go away by itself.  I think another name I can give to it is "live in Hell and wait for  Utopia".

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

I hope the persons contributing their views for sharing in the Forum are well educated in their respective fields.It is certainly expected that such pesons should be sharing their views to present the views of GuRu as envisaged in SGGS.
When it is felt that people start evaluating what GuRu is saying is like this or not.What authority we have to evaluate the thinking of our GuRu.We should rather respect what GuRu is saying.
And for this reason it is important for every one on this Forum to be well conversant with the views of GuRu. as envisaged  in SGGS.
Well ,I do not find whatever is presented is well supported  from SGGS .It is all wordly interaction of views which do not meet the GuRmati requirements.
No one should feel offended  only make self retrospection in this regard.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I hope the persons contributing their views for sharing in the Forum are well educated in their respective fields.It is certainly expected that such pesons should be sharing their views to present the views of GuRu as envisaged in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> When it is felt that people start evaluating what GuRu is saying is like this or not.What authority we have to evaluate the thinking of our GuRu.We should rather respect what GuRu is saying.
> And for this reason it is important for every one on this Forum to be well conversant with the views of GuRu. as envisaged  in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> Well ,I do not find whatever is presented is well supported  from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .It is all wordly interaction of views which do not meet the GuRmati requirements.
> ...


Prakash.S.Bagga ji in a sister thread destruction of Sikhi is flagged.  You said the following,



> Unless we are absolute clear about Basic concepts as given in Sri Guru  Granth Sahib Ji .No change can take place.There seems to be no Locus  Standi  in real understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> 
> 
> Sikh philosophy is trapped by Hindu Philosophy in India whereas Abroad ithe philosophy is trapped by the concept of Abraham GOD.
> ...


Dear veer tell me how these in any practical fashion help solve specifically each of the issues like from other thread as,


> 1.Leaders-With makker  sarna badal who needs enimes.  Almost all are big  leaders have been found to be corrupt and misusing Gurdwara funds.
> 
> 2.Granthis- Not prepared with enough education to teach.  Most granthes  arent teaching the young Sikhs punjabi Gurbani and katha keertan.
> 
> ...


Veer you used six months to a year repeating ad nauseum "Gur GURU, Guroo".  Now you have picked another phrase to throw around,



> Well ,I do not find whatever is presented is well supported  from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .


You don't provide details just paint with a brush.  It is very tiring on eyes.  I know you can can contribute, so please contribute with specifics and not generalizations.  I saw you quoting Geeta the other day, so you definitely have studied much.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 24, 2012)

I mentioned this to my wife, What should the response be to those that try and inflict their views on us, why cannot there be discussion that leads to greater understanding, Why is it that a Hindu and a Sikh cannot just share what is in common and embrace the common points,. 

My dear wife whilst taking a urine sample from Alfie and without looking up said the following

"would you post your list of meat recipes on a vegetarian forum and expect to be lauded?"

errr no

"What about writing an article on Range Rovers on a cyclist forum?"

errr no

"Maybe an article about the benefits of Whaling on a Greenpeace forum"

ok ok ok ok 

"and if you were a member of a Greenpeace forum, and you saw a post about the benefits of Whaling, would you not be quick to defend the stance of the forum?"

Yes

"So what exactly are you bleating about?"

to be fair, Alfie had just managed to get quite a bit of urine on my wife's head, and I was supposed to be holding him, not reading the PC screen, so I guess I deserved the last line


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I think you are going to chalk out an action plan for tackling the various issues.
Let your action plan come in the forum I may contribute a little to justify what I have said.
These issues are not that easy as easily presented.You also know this quite well.
Nevertheless we should not leave the hope. I assure you I would be doing my best for these issues if asked for.
Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> I think you are going to chalk out an action plan for tackling the various issues.
> Let your action plan come in the forum I may contribute a little to justify what I have said.


prakash.s.bagga veer why is it that Ambarsaria has to be deputized for all such.  You are more than capable of doing an action plan and perhaps can do it ten times better than me.  Why don't you brother!  It will be much appreciated.  mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> prakash.s.bagga veer why is it that Ambarsaria has to be deputized for all such. You are more than capable of doing an action plan and perhaps can do it ten times better than me. Why don't you brother! It will be much appreciated. mundahug
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Thanks for your such a consideration for me. I know your presentaions are very strong and convincing and you are in a much better position to do any thing .I know my limitation s of elaboration that I admit is poor.
I may be clear in my concept but without help of someone I dont fit for that.
I am always there to share any thing you would like to.In fact you have perhaps not understood my nature and sometimes we seem to be different.Otherwise we are ONE and Connected to ONE ONly.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kamala (Feb 25, 2012)

Not really our responsibility, more like the Gurdwara's (unless you are a granthy).. but the more help the better I guess, but negative influences are of no use when you do not understand it yourself.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 25, 2012)

Kamala said:


> Not really our responsibility, more like the Gurdwara's (unless you are a granthy).. but the more help the better I guess, but negative influences are of no use when you do not understand it yourself.




It is up the individual to make a difference and stand up for what he/she believes in, I know what I believe in, do you?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 25, 2012)

> What responsibility do we have to keep Sikhi as Guruji intended, and who can definitively say what that is?


 
Veer Ji 

Perhaps our Guru intended for us to keep changing within 'Sikhi',ofcourse the Truth remains same as before .

In your language a new body styling but with the same engine under the bonnet and the same drive system (5 wheel drive).


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## Harry Haller (Feb 25, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji
> 
> Perhaps our Guru intended for us to keep changing within 'Sikhi',ofcourse the Truth remains same as before .
> 
> In your language a new body styling but with the same engine under the bonnet and the same drive system (5 wheel drive).



Veerji, every thought every action takes us further or closer to the truth, the truth is the only constant in this world

kindly explain what 5 wheel drive is :singhsippingcoffee:


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Veerji, every thought every action takes us further or closer to the truth, the truth is the only constant in this world
> 
> kindly explain what 5 wheel drive is :singhsippingcoffee:


Harry Haller veer ji I think we need an emergency meeting of Musketeers :interestedmunda:, sp ji's is going too deep and at times to close for comfort with others.  Can you imagine Kamala ji liking my posts winkingmunda
<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/296E57CxNw4?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/296E57CxNw4?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 25, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry Haller veer ji I think we need an emergency meeting of Musketeers :interestedmunda:, sp ji's is going too deep and at times to close for comfort with others.  Can you imagine Kamala ji liking my posts winkingmunda
> <object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/296E57CxNw4?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/296E57CxNw4?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



I think our Udasi Muskateer has led him astray, he has been spending too much time on mountain tops. peacesignkaur

I think Kamalaji would like your posts if you posted something she liked lol


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 25, 2012)

> kindly explain what 5 wheel drive is


 
Veer Ji What I mean is the 5k's but you could also say we have a fifth wheel ,(the steering wheel),we are a part of Sikhi,it does not exist in isolation, we are an integral part of our own faith.

In your language ,the driver steers but the designer of the vehicle is God.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I think our Udasi Muskateer has led him astray, he has been spending too much time on mountain tops. peacesignkaur
> 
> _*I think Kamalaji would like your posts if you posted something she liked *_lol


How about the following,<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px">


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<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8rbczNySddo?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="360" width="640"></object>

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x7TXKD1fRc4?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="360" width="640"></object>
<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jBShK_g3RDE?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="360" width="640"></object>


> *Mr. M.K.Gandhi
> (a) My belief about the Sikh Gurus is that they were all Hindus. I do   not regard Sikhism as a religion distinct from Hinduism.  (Young India   1.10.1925)
> (b) The Granth Sahib of the Sikhs is actually based on the Hindu scriptures. (Collected works of M.K.Gandhi page 284)*


It is ironic as to people who speak bad and act bad from the heart about Sikhs seem to die in unnatural circumstances.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  May be Prakash S. Bagga ji can be the intermediary to get Kamala ji to thank me or like my post.  Veer ji definitely have influence with Kamala ji!


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## Taranjeet singh (Feb 25, 2012)

Dear harry ji,
Just take a break for a day or two and come back. It shall have soothing effect. Instinctive response.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Dear harry ji,
> Just take a break for a day or two and come back. It shall have soothing effect. Instinctive response.


Taranjeet Singh ji any help for me brother.

I am feeling washed out!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 25, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Dear harry ji,
> Just take a break for a day or two and come back. It shall have soothing effect. Instinctive response.



for you or for me ? lol

I have given the matter some thought, the Mool Mantra is pretty definitive and not open to personal interpretation. It is written in stone, and the most important aspect is the fact that there is only one Creator/God/Lord/Energy, and that is without form, death or birth, these are the building blocks of Sikhi. 

Reincarnation is a matter of opinion, although I , and many others could put up a good argument against, and debating such is always interesting, Meat, likewise, but just because a Sikh holds vegetarianism close to their heart, and/or reincarnation (although strangely they seem to go hand in hand), that does not make them any less Sikhs in my view. Such debate can only enrich and enlighten others, and is a good thing, provided there is no effort to convert. 

However, I and others should stand up and be counted on Mool Mantra, it is impossible for a Sikh to believe in deities, physical manifestations of God, or Gods that are reborn. God does not take a physical form, is not recognised as a physical form, and recognition of such puts you outside of Sikhism. Opposition to such should be made politely and firmly, as there is nothing ambiguous about Mool Mantra, the very foundations of our religion.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 25, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Taranjeet Singh ji any help for me brother.
> 
> I am feeling washed out!
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



find SPji on his mountain top, maybe you need to meditate lol lol lol


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

harry haller said:


> find SPji on his mountain top, maybe you need to meditate lol lol lol


I can actually visualize him coming down from the mountain top complete with his five wheeler and riding a five wheeler.

As for other doing what they do personally, I have no business in anyone's life.  If their is mis-direction of SGGS, I try to comment.  Pretty simple actually.

Rest of the stuff is just filler.

Sat Sri Akal.:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Harry Haller (Feb 25, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> I can actually visualize him coming down from the mountain top complete with his five wheeler and riding a five wheeler.
> 
> As for other doing what they do personally, I have no business in anyone's life.  If their is mis-direction of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I try to comment.  Pretty simple actually.
> 
> ...



I agree Veerji, however, I do feel strongly that opinions that contradict Mool Mantra are exposed for what they are, lest they influence those searching for the truth. I have no ruck with what anyone believes in, until they begin to preach, in that circumstance, it becomes an issue. 

Although I like to think SPji meditates on a mountain in a lionskin, in reality, I think it is a pink jumpsuit in his bedroom.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I agree Veerji, however, I do feel strongly that opinions that contradict Mool Mantra are exposed for what they are, lest they influence those searching for the truth. I have no ruck with what anyone believes in, until they begin to preach, in that circumstance, it becomes an issue.
> 
> Although I like to think SPji meditates on a mountain in a lionskin, in reality, _I think it is a pink jumpsuit in his bedroom._


Between you and me and don't tell anyone,  it is perhaps better than my leopard leotards.  peacesign

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 25, 2012)

[quoteGod does not take a physical form, is not recognised as a physical form, and recognition of such puts you outside of Sikhism. Opposition to such should be made politely and firmly][/quote]

Veer Ji The only thing that can put you outside Sikhism is you,our Guru's did not oppose the physical form Gods they incorporated them,our Guru introduced the Supreme Commander, but he did not tell his soldiers to disrespect their superiors.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> [quoteGod does not take a physical form, is not recognised as a physical form, and recognition of such puts you outside of Sikhism. Opposition to such should be made politely and firmly]


 
Veer Ji The only thing that can put you outside Sikhism is you,our Guru's did not oppose the physical form Gods they incorporated them,our Guru introduced the Supreme Commander, but he did not tell his soldiers to disrespect their superiors.[/QUOTE]

In fact it is important to understand that even in Hindu philosophy in basic principles does not believe in the physical form of God/Goddes.
The phsical forms of GoD/Goddes have been created to symbolise a particular GOD/GODDes for a particular and specific job assigned to that GOD or GODDEs.That is why Hinu Philosophy is usaually refered as Mythology.These Mythologies have certain difnite logic which we are not familiar with.
Therefore ,I agree to your point we should present our Gurmat view about that Mythology insteed of outrightly rejecting it.This should be the way of sharing the views.The problem will definitely come when we adopt total negative attitude towards Hindu philosophy.
Even we can learn from Gurbanee that We should first listen to others and then give our opinion on that.But in actual practice we do not follow this.
This approach can be very conducive for maintaining the harmony of two 
communities.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> [quoteGod does not take a physical form, is not recognised as a physical form, and recognition of such puts you outside of Sikhism. Opposition to such should be made politely and firmly]
> 
> Veer Ji The only thing that can put you outside Sikhism is you,our _Guru's did not oppose the physical form Gods they incorporated them_,our Guru introduced the Supreme Commander, but he did not tell his soldiers to disrespect their superiors.


Veer Bhagat Singh/sp ji interestedmunda:lol) that is false.  Infinite can not be form.  Read mool mantar again.

Please quote a complete shabad with your own interpretation.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 25, 2012)

> that is false. Infinite can not be form.


Veer Ji What is form,all that is created has been created from the formless,the formless one pervades it,the formless one contains it,so in what way is it form,infinite can be anything and everything at once.

This is my personalised view, having been informed in the general aspects of the infinite by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

Here is the real problem.We do not understand the significance of INFINITE.Whereas Gurbanee is giving the perfect and complete knowledge of this INFINITE .ULTIMATE LORD.
We should basically understand what is INFINITE.?
Probably whatever is not approachable or realised can be considered as Infinity.Gurbanee is telling about ULTIMATE or SUPREME LORD as infinite but this does not mean that the SUPREME LORD can not be realised or appreheded. or seen by Human.
And this makes clear that the reference of ULTIMATE LORD as very first SYMBOL in SGGS is not Formless.
There are two kinds of visions
1...Vision thru knowledge.
2...thru simple sensual capabilities.

Gurbanee makes use of both the visions to know the ULTIMATE LORD as infinite  in terms of Divine Word GuRoo.
Since our senses are self regulatory and can see The INFINITE with blessings of DIVINEonly.
Truth is reaveled only in the heart of  surrendered soul to the ULTIMATE LORD.
That is why ABNASEE PRABHu can be realised thru the grace of GuR only..This is the most important message one should note from Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji What is form ?

















Please also don't answer a question with question!  Asking of you to support your assertion through a Shabad in SGGS.

Sat Sri Akal peacesign


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Here is the real problem.We do not understand the significance of INFINITE.Whereas Gurbanee is giving the perfect and complete knowledge of this INFINITE .ULTIMATE LORD.
> _Sorry PSB ji this is false.  Please quote how infinite can be defined in 1430 pages and specially when Guru ji stated creator to be infinite.  I do believe they understood the definition of infinity._
> 
> We should basically understand what is INFINITE.?
> ...


Sorry to state the differences as clearly as I could.

I am open to comments and corrections.

With due respect brother, you appear very lost in some wisdom non Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Sorry to state the differences as clearly as I could.
> 
> I am open to comments and corrections.
> 
> ...


 
In the present situation there is no scope of correction.Our approach seems to be diamatically opposite.So there can be no further interaction on this.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> In the present situation there is no scope of correction.Our approach seems to be diamatically opposite.So there can be no further interaction on this.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Veer prakash.s.bagga ji I was not expecting nor would I wait.  This is normal approach by your good self many times over.  As rarely have you written more than a paragraph without making gross errors while pretending to know it all.  When challenged or commented upon you raise some kind of superlative technicality, etc., to set yourself aside.  

Please next time you give one liners as guidance to everyone in words (Gur GURu Guroo, Ekankar etc. etc.) and other contortions as to be some kind of centric to understanding, ensure that you are capable of sharing yourself or willing to contribute in return.  

It is so sad.  I don't pretend to know it all or know more than others but I share what I understand.

You go your ways and I go mine.  So before challenging next time think what will you contribute as party of interest other than a set aside.  Utter shame for all involved I experience in such interactions.

Sat Sri Akal.  

*PS:*  It is not the approach at issue, it is the content.  You as an Engineer are trying to put infinity into a Prabhu Box, it ain't going to work brother as long as I am on this forum and capable to respond based on SGGS where time and again the futility of so doing is stated.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It is all approach that ultimately matters.
What is refered in Gurbanee as INFINITE I undertand this as REAL and EVER EXISTING.
Even in science I think we all know that infinite is a REAL Number .not something imaginary.
If you consider the INFINITE in Gurbanee as something IMAGINATIONonly, I can probably agree to what you say without any ifs and buts..
So our GuRu is telling about this REAL and EXisting INFINITE that is to be known thru the word GuRoo.If one does not agree then no solution to that.
That is why one is required to read SGGS again and again to get to know the gist of what GuRu is actually saying.
I can simply put my own observations.Not necesarily to be accepted as I may be wrong too.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 26, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> It is all approach that ultimately matters.
> What is refered in Gurbanee as INFINITE I undertand this as REAL and EVER EXISTING.
> _Even in science I think we all know that infinite is a REAL Number .not something imaginary_.Prakash.S.Bagga


_Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji once you complete writing the Infinite number (not the infinity symbol), let me know and I will kiss your feet and forever shut up.

Let me help you,

Say Infinity = 1/0 = 99999999999999999999999999 ............................ sorry I am tired cannot write anymore as this will never end  ___, please _contibnue and let me know when you are finished, and I promise to add more and prove you could not possibly have finished, and so on

_

> *So creator infinite dimensional and infinite in each dimension is not possible to be written down or described*


You can try, pretend and believe but it will all be incomplete hence false.

This interpretation of infinity and creator is part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  

So just as you riddle me, I want you, with great respect and belief (I believe you have read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji more than once) to do all a favor.  Please tfor spn members and post couple of sabads on couple of possible of the infinite virtues of the creator illustrated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and show how such places state that the virtue under consideration can not be fully defined other than as a class, like in words of Mool Mantar.​
Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 26, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji once you complete writing the Infinite number (not the infinity symbol), let me know and I will kiss your feet and forever shut up._
> 
> _Let me help you,_
> 
> ...


 
One is not required to write infinite.One is required to understand infinite.
How infinite can be understood this is important. Any infinite can be understood thru its finite dimension only.
This is a matter of approach.One believes in writing of infinite and other may believe in understanding of finite.I think latter is more important.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 26, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> One is not required to write infinite.One is required to understand infinite.
> How infinite can be understood this is important. Any infinite can be understood thru its finite dimension only.
> This is a matter of approach.One believes in writing of infinite and other may believe in understanding of finite.I think latter is more important.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash S.Bagga ji just baloney.  You don't understand what infinity stands for in any concept of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  There are incredibly large and consistent references to the essence of "it cannot be ascribed or fully understood or defined".  

Sorry to be in your face.  Study and then come back and please don't just mis-lead.  Perhaps get rid of the Geeta, Veda cluttered information in your head first.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 26, 2012)

1/0 is technically undefined  because anything multiplied with zero will give zero. Some hypothetical number multiplied by zero giving one as answer is impossible. Either that or the notion of zero is actually impossible.

Infinity is something never ending. Another concept in Math.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 26, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> 1/0 is technically undefined  because anything multiplied with zero will give zero. Some hypothetical number multiplied by zero giving one as answer is impossible. Either that or the notion of zero is actually impossible.
> 
> Infinity is something never ending. Another concept in Math.


Kanwaljit Singh veer ji I understand the concept of Infinity and it is referenced a lot in SGGS as to the virtues and qualities of the creator.  Prakash.S.Bagga ji somehow tries against what is stated in SGGS and make things definitive in a box form, and call it as of form, fully describable and definable Prabhu or such.  That is basically denying what SGGS and Guru ji's say.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Feb 26, 2012)

Doesn't Japji Sahib establish at the outset that mortals cannot comprehend Ik Onkar through purely intellectual means no matter how hard they try??


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 26, 2012)

Seeker9 said:


> Doesn't Japji Sahib establish at the outset that mortals cannot comprehend Ik Onkar through purely intellectual means no matter how hard they try??


Veer it is in so many places that it is incredible that such people claim not to see.  I don't want to judge, but this is a frontal attack on SGGS and I try to respond as much as I can.  Lot of these people are up to no good from Sikhism perspective.  Sorry to be so blunt.

Our educational institutions, katha vachiks, raagis shift with the winds of the times.  We all know which way those winds are blowing right now.  Put people in Dehras, towards Babeys, etc., and away from SGGS.

The leadership has reached a very high level of incompetence and deviance.  If Sikhism has deep roots, such will get their day in court sooner or later.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 26, 2012)

Recognize Form and Formless to be one and the same.


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## Luckysingh (Feb 26, 2012)

Seeker9 said:


> Doesn't Japji Sahib establish at the outset that mortals cannot comprehend Ik Onkar through purely intellectual means no matter how hard they try??


 
We need say no more:

Ek Onkar is what the complete Guru Granth Sahib is based on. Sikhism,existence, truth, eternity, infinity, All beyond is all Ek Onkar.


Even before the universe, before the planets, before any man, any creation.
The truth was Ek Onkar.
Before, Now, After..... Will ALWAYS be Ek Onkar.

The answer to infintiy's boundaries can only be Ek Onkar. Infact all answers come from Ek Onkar.


Ek Onkar Satnaam
Lucky Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Recognize Form and Formless to be one and the same.


Sorry Bhagat Singh veer, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Try it lol.

It did not work with the cheese cake piece (form) I had today. Once the form was gone, there was nothing left (formless) to eat! Tomorrow morning another form will come out from behind and I wish it was formless so I did not have to clean the place where sun don't shine. May be I need to be on diet to experince what you are saying!

Let us not play on words as then there is nothing to understand or learn other tha to close the eyes and look for dasam dwar in the darkness.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Ambarsaria Veerji,
I bought a cake, ate it, then had it for a while, then excreted poop. The form was never gone it was placed in my digestive tract only to be transformed. Anyways, you do not get to formless by taking away form. You get to the formless by seeing the form in its entirety in the deepest way with full alertness (ਧਿਆਨ). The distinction between form and formless is an illusion. When the mind sees that distinction it is operating in duality. If only for a second, step out of the field of duality, and see/know form and formless to be one thing.

Page 163, Line 8
ਸਿਵਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਮਿਟਾਈਆ ਚੂਕਾ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ ॥
सिवि सकति मिटाईआ चूका अंधिआरा ॥
Siv sakaṯ mitā▫ī▫ā cẖūkā anḏẖi▫ārā.
The distinction between Shiva and Shakti - mind (observer/formless) and matter (object/form)- has been destroyed, and the darkness has been dispelled.
Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

My own two penth

Creator is Infinite and can never be measured or understood, all we have is the tiny essence, the tiny droplet in our heads to get an idea of Creator,. All we have is 1/0, and that can be useful in calculations, to get to the answers, but if the answer is ever ∞, then we will never be able to fully realise what this means, in maths, in life, 

To say Creator has form, is to say that essence of Creator has form, is to say that you can get an idea of what exists in the Oceans, the fish, the sharks, the life, the whales, from one tiny drop in a test tube


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## Luckysingh (Feb 27, 2012)

It depends how you look at it, form and formless can be the same in a certain way AND not the same in another way.

Lets say a man goes salmon fishing (very popular here in Vancouver). Let's just consider a single fish, that swims around freely, living with the constant _*need*_ for water.

When the man catches it, the fish still has this _*need for water*_. But, due to the consequences of the man's actions keeping it out of the water, the fish struggles,flapping away,distraught, as it has this urgent _*need* _for water.
Soon, it's life is over and it is dead.

Now, the man takes it home, washes it, then cuts it up carefully into small pieces ready to cook.
The fish is now formless as it is dead and cut up into dozens of pieces.
It is cooked and served on a plate for his evening meal.

He consumes it all and enjoys the meal. As he goes fishing and eats fish often, he knows what will happen in the night during sleep.

He will be woken up thirsty with a *need for water........ *Even though the fish was all cut up, still in its formless state inside the man, it still urges the NEED for WATER!!

Form and formless can be seen as the same in this sense.



Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> It depends how you look at it, form and formless can be the same in a certain way AND not the same in another way.
> 
> Lets say a man goes salmon fishing (very popular here in Vancouver). Let's just consider a single fish, that swims around freely, living with the constant _*need*_ for water.
> 
> ...



Luckyji

The fish may be lifeless, but it is certainly not formless, I am not sure how someone as intelligent as your good self has got this confused. 

The fish is dead, it has no urge for water, this is more a Vedic philosophy, there is no grounding in Sikhi for this concept of dead fish needing water 

Sikhi advocates intelligence, discretion, logic, and a respect for the laws of Creation, I find none of this in the above post, please explain so I may understand your reasoning brother


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## BaljinderS (Feb 27, 2012)

Interesting and some what puzzling posts?!?  

My question is, why do we have so many different view points?  What are we missing here?  Siri Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru?  Anything outside of this, is not for Sikhs to focus or worry about.  Anything we say should be backed with reference to gurbani.  We are nothing without Gurbani.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Lets say a man goes salmon fishing (very popular here in Vancouver). Let's just consider a single fish, that swims around freely, living with the constant _*need*_ for water.
> 
> When the man catches it, the fish still has this _*need for water*_. But, due to the consequences of the man's actions keeping it out of the water, the fish struggles,flapping away,distraught, as it has this urgent _*need* _for water.
> Soon, it's life is over and it is dead.
> ...


Luckysingh ji you have great imagination.

If you are the man in the story I would love to try the fish you cook.  _The __spices you use must be very good as these will force me to get up at night feeling thirsty_. lol Actually if you had alcohol with the fish, very common then you must also realize that Alcohol is a diuretic.  Implying it dehydrates hence the extra desire for water.  If you had too much beer, then the extra desire to wake up and relieve!lol

Now you tell me brother what this has to do with the "form formless" of our veer Bhagat Singh ji!

Life is short let us guide as much as we can with wisdom and the teacher that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is.  Let us not allow all these tangents to justify behaviors versus thought per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

harry haller said:


> _The fish is dead, it has no urge for water, this is more a Vedic philosophy, there is no grounding in Sikhi for this concept of dead fish needing water _
> 
> Sikhi advocates intelligence, discretion, logic, and a respect for the laws of Creation, I find none of this in the above post, please explain so I may understand your reasoning brother


_harry haller ji do you realize brother the vastness that is impinging on Sikh adherents to take them away from the beauty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and lead into such theories, cults, practices._ 

Now funny thing is Lucky Singh, Bhagat Singh, Amarjit Singh Bamrah, etc., carry a pretty sharp intellect on their shoulders.  Imagine people who are less so inclined!  Can you see Radhaswami, Nirankari, Sacha Sauda and like Dehras filling up for the early morning dissemination of concepts anti-Sikh and anti Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without people even recognizing it to be so.  I do.

To sustain true values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is an uphill and sideways battle and it is not a given all Sikhs realize what this battle is and why!  Many will profess that there is no issue! welcomemunda

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Feb 27, 2012)

BaljinderS said:


> Interesting and some what puzzling posts?!?
> 
> My question is, why do we have so many different view points?  What are we missing here?  Siri Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru?  Anything outside of this, is not for Sikhs to focus or worry about.  Anything we say should be backed with reference to gurbani.  We are nothing without Gurbani.




Very well said
I too am confused by some of the creative viewpoints that have been expressed


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## Awakeand Singh (Feb 27, 2012)

Seeker9 said:


> Very well said
> I too am confused by some of the creative viewpoints that have been expressed



So am I. Is there anyone who speaks with real authority for principles of Sikhi? Or, has anti-hierarchy completely dissolved into anarchy? 
Nothing, other than the Guru Granth seems to be sacrosanct ... and I doubt that you'll find any two Sikhs who would agree on just what its message is.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

Awakeand Singh said:


> So am I. Is there anyone who speaks with real authority for principles of Sikhi? Or, has anti-hierarchy completely dissolved into anarchy?
> Nothing, other than the Guru Granth seems to be sacrosanct ... and I doubt that you'll find any two Sikhs who would agree on just what its message is.



Oh this is just play, for example, I hold Bhagatsinghji in the most highest esteem, and Luckyji is a most enlightened soul, however my views can be a million miles from theirs, but always on the most pointless and amusing topics. 

If you believe in one Creator without birth and death who is formless, ie, not a deity, not a living person, if you wish to be fearless, if you wish to progress as a person, you are a Sikh, and I will embrace you all day as a Sikh, everything else is just nitty gritty, just pointless debate to hone our senses, get the juices running, we could debate all day and get nowhere, but as long as we all agree on the foundations, we are all brothers and sisters on the same side


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## Awakeand Singh (Feb 27, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Oh this is just play, for example, I hold Bhagatsinghji in the most highest esteem, and Luckyji is a most enlightened soul, however my views can be a million miles from theirs, but always on the most pointless and amusing topics.
> 
> If you believe in one Creator without birth and death who is formless, ie, not a deity, not a living person, if you wish to be fearless, if you wish to progress as a person, you are a Sikh, and I will embrace you all day as a Sikh, everything else is just nitty gritty, just pointless debate to hone our senses, get the juices running, we could debate all day and get nowhere, but as long as we all agree on the foundations, we are all brothers and sisters on the same side



That definition is also the starting point for being a Jew or a Muslim ...


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

but unfortunately not Hindus, the irony being it is the Vedicism that is constantly trying to assimilate Sikhism, rather than Muslims and Jews, ironic because I don't feel any issue with Islamic/Sikh, or Judaism/Sikh, as we all pretty much believe in one Creator, formless, without birth or death, its an important foundation, the only foundation, we all know whose house is probably going to get blown down, uhm actually that probably is not the best fairy story to quote for obvious reasons, but its the brick one,


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

Awakeand Singh said:


> That definition is also the starting point for being a Jew or a Muslim ...


_Awakeand Singh ji thanks for your post.  I don't know the reference off hand_.

_It goes like that Sikhism believes Islam to be blind in one eye.  
_

_The non-blind eye represents the one creator part without deities, stones, statues, etc.  
_
_The blindness is the son/messenger of or sent by God and a person different than others._
_Also that Hinduism is blind in both eyes as,
_

_One blind eye represents the non-belief in one God/creator
_
_The second blind eye represents the channels to their God through Hierarchy of Brahmins, deities, junior Gods and Senior Gods, and so on and God as a person different than others including all intermediaries (so called Board of Directors or Management team)._
Now Sikhs in numbers started out of Hinduism  So imagine the task to operate on two eyes and getting such to see light and wisdom.  This has been a challenge in history of Sikhism as people squint, wink, and blink at the right moment so as to conveniently ignore the Sikhism total and do partial acceptance.

Hope above provides some clarity for dialog.

Sat Sri Akal/Shalom mundahug


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## Randip Singh (Feb 27, 2012)

harry haller said:


> My behaviour over the last few weeks is vexing me, it is causing me concern.
> 
> I did not join this forum to correct others, or impose my view of Sikhism on another, I did not join to discover answers to my own questions and then force others to accept my answers, yet I increasingly find my posts becoming quite forceful, sarcastic, to those whose views I do not agree with. In particular I am finding myself more and more frustrated by the growing Hinduism within Sikhism, and I find myself getting quite irritated by views that I feel are misplaced and misguided, I am getting to the point where I just want to get along with everyone and respect the individuality of all, and the views of all, but how can I do this when such views, I feel are tainting the opinions of people coming into Sikhi, looking for answers, and who am I to set a standard, or even uphold a standard, when there is so much difference of opinion.
> 
> ...



Don't ask me I'm still learning.....................but then again I suppose sikh means to learn


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## Awakeand Singh (Feb 27, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Awakeand Singh ji thanks for your post.  I don't know the reference off hand_.
> 
> _It goes like that Sikhism believes Islam to be blind in one eye.
> _
> ...


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Lucky Singh ji,
I have no idea what you are talking about with that "fish needs water" thing. I am not sure if that's a good example of what I'm talking about.

Harry ji,


> To say Creator has form, is to say that essence of Creator has form, is to say that you can get an idea of what exists in the Oceans, the fish, the sharks, the life, the whales, from one tiny drop in a test tube


No
Let us understand what Form and Formless are first. 

Sangat ji,
Form is everything you see, smell, touch, hear, taste and think. Form is physical objects, as well as conceptual ones in the form of thought or information. To know form, you need to go out in the world and look at things, smell them, feel their texture and temperature, taste them and contemplate them.

Formless is that one who is aware of seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. Form has all qualities while the Formless has none. To know formless is to ask yourself at any given time e.g. in you happen to be discussing with yourself "Who is aware of these internal discussions I am having? Who is listening to my internal discursive dialogue?"

So you the Observer is Formless (_Shiv_) and what you observe is Form (_Shakti_).  Makes sense? If this is not clear simply do this experiment until it is clear that two such things exist. Grab an object, any object, and look at it, feel it, etc. Notice that there is an object and there is someone observing the object. There is someone aware of the object.
If you find yourself thinking about it. Notice how there is a thought and there is someone who is aware of that thought, who hears it or sees images. Get familiarized with Form and Formless through such means. Get to know both of them separately.

The more you do that experiment the better. Even if you already get it, do the experiment anyway.

Let's not even talk about the creator until we have understood these things in ourselves first. Why pose the bigger problem first? Let's understand Form and Formless first. It is not hard. *You need first-hand experience of Form and Formless if you are going to get any closer to understanding the Creator* (this cannot be stressed enough). So do this now and share your experiences.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSinghji, 

A bit round the houses for a concept so simple, I understand completely, however I do not think you have understood what I said so completely.

You say tomato............


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Avoid looking for understanding, avoid attempts to understand, just do it. You know spirituality is all about actions, so do the experiment. And do it as often as you can. The more you do it the more you will understand Form and Formless and how they operate. The more you do look at them the more you will understand about their nature.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

Ok Veerji, I have an open mind, and my wife has an even more open mind, We will do it together after dinner, although it was more tempting to write something funny, I will update you after pudding!peacesignkaur


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Hahah :grinningsingh:


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## Seeker9 (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Avoid looking for understanding, avoid attempts to understand, just do it. You know spirituality is all about actions, so do the experiment. And do it as often as you can. The more you do it the more you will understand Form and Formless and how they operate. The more you do look at them the more you will understand about their nature.



Dear Bhagat Singh Ji

I appreciate you are trying to convey your understanding

Form, formless, tangible, intangible, Sargun, Nirgun all aspects of Ik Onkar

Infinite is another aspect of Ik Onkar

In terms of the earlier discussion around intellectual comprehension of that infinite nature, I'm afraid I don't see how your point relates to that

Re the observer who is observing, there is a physical act of observation and a mental act of observation. We could then go down the road of discussing the Soul, sentience, the human psyche, separating the dancer from the dance etc but I feel it would be off track

Apologies if I have picked you up wrong


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahah :grinningsingh:


 

haha yourself, ok, very funny, ok, we tried it, perhaps you have another trial for us to carry out, maybe we should smear dogpoo under our noses to prove it smells, or maybe holding our breath to prove we need air

Next on mastermind, Bhagatji, specialist subject, the bleeding obvious, 

ok first question, what colour is red?


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## Luckysingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Sat sri akal

It's amusing how we have all caused each other further confusion, causing each other to scratch our heads on something that we have to understand ourselves.

I know why my fish story started to make everything look more than fishy!
The message I was trying to give was that form and formless can be the same.
You may see this if you imagine the story as a little movie, with the light and focus being on the fish. So everything happening is to and around the fish.
After it is chopped up etc,,, and you could say it's formless, although it still demands water!!

I know this is a cartoon angle to look at. But, it came to me as I had used this cartoon theory to explain to my young kids! They had questioned after a fish meal, why their mother told them to take bottled water to their bedrooms. I wasn't going to explain the absorption of water in the small intestine stimulated by certain food/drink to a  7yr old.
But with kids, its easier to give them a simplified explanation that makes sense!!!

This is why and how I thought I'd mention it in terms of form and formless.

Sorry for cracking at your brain cells with cartoon theories.

This is exactly what happens when we all go off in tangents trying to solve or explain something. **It's still good, in a sense**

BUT, at times like this we should just revert back to the gurbani and basics. This is something we know we can ALL do, as this is what makes us Sikhs.
So, focus on the real elements.
Ek onkar, satnaam.


Lucky Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Seeker9 said:


> Dear Bhagat Singh Ji
> I appreciate you are trying to convey your understanding
> Form, formless, tangible, intangible, Sargun, Nirgun all aspects of Ik Onkar
> Infinite is another aspect of Ik Onkar


Seeker9 ji, We are trying to find out how Sargun and Nirgun are one and the same. We are trying to find out this one who is described as Infinite. 

To say "EkOankar is Form, formless, tangible, intangible, Sargun, Nirgun, Infinite, etc" implies that we already knows EkOankar. Do we?
We are trying to find out what EkOankar is so we can know whether he is Inifinite, the way in which he is infinite, for example. There are things we can know about EkOankar. There is only one way to know them and that is to know them first-hand.



> In terms of the earlier discussion around intellectual comprehension of that infinite nature, I'm afraid I don't see how your point relates to that


You are right here. The intellect cannot comprehend that which we call Infinite. The intellect operates in the field of duality, hence it cannot comprehend Oneness, Ekoankar. There are other ways though that we can explore.


> Re the observer who is observing, there is a physical act of observation and a mental act of observation. We could then go down the road of discussing the Soul, sentience, the human psyche, separating the dancer from the dance etc but I feel it would be off track
> 
> Apologies if I have picked you up wrong


What is "physical act of observation" and "mental act of observation"?


Harry ji,


> haha yourself, ok, very funny, ok, we tried it, perhaps you have another trial for us to carry out, maybe we should smear dogpoo under our noses to prove it smells, or maybe holding our breath to prove we need air
> 
> Next on mastermind, Bhagatji, specialist subject, the bleeding obvious,
> 
> ok first question, what colour is red?


lol
I think we should. Ok guys this evening go to the park and... or if you already own one then grab some...
It's one thing to know.  It is another to *really* know.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> I know why my fish story started to make everything look more than fishy!


Luckysingh veer ji thanks for your clarification.  I don't believe you.  Itrust my sixth sense which tells me you either fish or buy fish, prepare it nice, marinate it nice, cook it nice and enjoy with relish.

I was just salivating reading your story.  Here in Mississauga, Mughal Mahal makes one of the best tasty fish.  They have fried and Tanddori.  I like fried even thogh it is slightly less healthy.  They used to use Boston Bluefish but have been trying othrt types lately.

I am holding my hopes so please say I am right that your fish story was more gourmet than a dream or fantassy. icecreammunda

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Feb 27, 2012)

> What is "physical act of observation" and "mental act of observation"?



The eyes see and the mind interprets. For example looking at a work of art. Brings in additional formless factors into play


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> We are trying to find out what EkOankar is so we can know _whether he is Inifinite (just look up at the night sky and say Wahegur tusin Beant ho/Creator you are infinite) , it is not rocket science a_, the way in which he is infinite, for example.
> _Furthermore you try to put statements in other people's mouths, check first if they are asking you to feed them first. _
> 
> _Veer Bhagat Singh ji this general statement and many other of your postulations you cannot attach to others. I have no difficulty in this regard and perhaps many others don't while you may._
> ...


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Seeker9 ji,
When you look at the keyboard under your nose, what do you see? What thoughts come up? What does it feel like? Smell it. Have you ever smelled your keyboard? What does it smell like? Type something. What does it sound like?

(I am not going to ask you to taste it but you can if you want to Lol)


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## Seeker9 (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Seeker9 ji,
> When you look at the keyboard under your nose, what do you see? What thoughts come up? What does it feel like? Smell it. Have you ever smelled your keyboard? What does it smell like? Type something. What does it sound like?
> 
> (I am not going to ask you to taste it but you can if you want to Lol)



Generally I tend to think more about what I am typing as opposed to what I am typing on. If I wanted to get philosophical about the keyboard and my interaction with it, I guess I could consider Quantum Physics and what is actually there when I am not looking at the keyboard....


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Haha, you are complicating the matter. You are too much in your head. It is really quite simple, not philosophical or scientific. Just be yourself. Use your 5 senses on the keyboard (or another object), and pay attention. What do you notice? Take note of it in our head. Describe it to yourself.
Repeat 4-5 times. 

What do you notice about your experience?


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## Seeker9 (Feb 27, 2012)

I'll give it a whirl......just for you!



> Take note of it in our head



Will we be channelling together?


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Hahah! No psychic powers here. Just waiting for any experiences you share.


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