# Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain



## kds1980 (Feb 15, 2009)

I read somewhere that following quote is written by Guru Gobind singh ji

"Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain"

Does anybody has Idea In which granth this quote is written?


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## japjisahib04 (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain*

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not the author of these lines, neither is this from SGGS.
Best regards
Mohinder Sahni


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## spnadmin (Feb 18, 2009)

*Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain*

Mohinder ji

You know it is all over the Internet that these words are by Nanak X. Mostly in youth forums. But read this below. It seems that the verse is very controversial 

*            Sikh Museum to have portrait of Balkar  
         Vedanti, Mann lock horns over hymn
          Gurbaxpuri            *​ Jamarai (Tarn Taran), July 6
Source http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080707/punjab1.htm

 An unsavoury situation occurred during a gathering organised to pay tributes to Balkar Singh, who was shot dead by guards of Dera Sacha Sauda chief in Mumbai, here today when jathedar of Akal Takht Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti and SAD (Amritsar) president Simranjit Singh Mann entered into a verbal duel. 



*The cause of the verbal duel between them was a hymn “Raj bina nahi dharm chale hai...,” which, Mann said, was part of Gurbani. Vedanti contradicted it, accusing Mann of misleading the Sikh community by relating it to Gurbani.*
*
*
During their arguments, the gathering raised slogans of “Khalistan” zindabad and brandished their swords. Jathedar Vedanti stopped his address midway and left the venue. 



Meanwhile, president of the SGPC Avtar Singh declared that the portrait of Balkar Singh would be installed at Central Sikh Museum at the Golden Temple in Amritsar. He gave Rs 1 lakh to the deceased’s mother and announced that a family member, who fulfilled the conditions, would be provided a job with the SGPC. 



Minister for rural development and panchayat Ranjit Singh Brahmpura expressed sympathy with the family. 



In a resolution passed on the occasion, Akal Takht and other organisations called upon the Sikh masses not to be misled by living gurus.


So where did it come from? Very weird... A writer on one blog says it comes from Guru Nanak. Most believe that it was stated by Guru Gobind Singh. But I searched and it is not in either Bani.


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## dalsingh (Feb 18, 2009)

*Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain*

I vaguely recall that it was from a manuscript copy of Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakaash that has since been lost. Could be wrong though.


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## pk70 (Feb 18, 2009)

*Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain*



dalsingh said:


> I vaguely recall that it was from a manuscript copy of Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakaash that has since been lost. Could be wrong though.




*Regardless who penned it down it, it reveals the truth History verifies  it and we witness everyday*


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 18, 2009)

Dear Gyani Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have a personal request to make. 

Can you please interpret this in lay man's terms and also shed some light how this is  related to the Miri-Piri life of Sikhi?

Thanks and Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## sadhu (Apr 5, 2009)

vaheguru seekr ji



> "Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain"



So, who wrote these lines?
Because i want to know if guru gobind singh wrote these lines.


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## Hardip Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

No exact proof of the writer exists. But one thing is certainly their that it tally's with the basic concept and teachings of Guru Gobind singh jee. Could be a verse from many of his poems or one written by his 52 great poets.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Dear Tejwant Ji,
Gurfateh.

Imho..this is  one of those sayings....that put theory into practise.
My understanding of thsi is that RAAJ......POLITICAL POWER is very necessary ingredient to speed up the rapid spread of a "religion....or any other ideology"
1. Christianity began its rapid spread once the RAAJA..the KINGS were converted....thus Europe turned Christian soon after...then came the Christian Roman Empire...Crusades...etc etc..
2. Christianity spread worldwide..due to the " Christain Whiteman" grabbing political power and COLONISING the world.
3. Islam came on the scene..and spread rapidly only after it began to use the SWORD...conquer...and take over political power...the Caliphates..the Mughal Empire...
4. Today Isalm is the power behind the govts of more than 40 Govts - remove that power and bring in democracy..freedom of religion..and islam will rapidly decline....

The Difference in this Phrase is the QUALIFYING....*DHARAM BINA SABH DALLEH MALLEH HAIN.*
The Writer says that although RELIGION cannot spread rapidly without POLITICAL POWER. HE *INSISTS* .that POLITICAL POWER MUST be *SUBSERVIENT TO DHARAM* !! IF DHARAM is neglected..then  ABSOLUTE POWER will be CORRUPTED ABSOLUTELY..as is happening worldwide in many countries and so called Religious Countries !! Chaos results...

That is my understanding in layman terms..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

and if i may add..this is also true for political ideologies like Communism..Marxism. These would have just remained theories on paper..if not successful in grabbing and keeping a stranglehold on political power in USSR Eastern Europe, China Vietnamese etc. When this power was absolute and in the hands of afew...it fell as in the fall of the USSR.Eastern Europe...and may be slowly happening in China.. IF these Leaders had some "goodness" like Dharam backing their actions..they would have succeeded a little longer..but they became dictators Stalin, Lenin, Khrsuhchev...with no morality of good actions.....

2. KHALSA increased rapidly during the time of Mahraja ranjit Singh - political power....and the numbers declined just as rapidly when the Empire Collpased within 50 years....State Patronage helped a whole lot...but most were merely opportunists...converting to sikhism to earn favours- with not much DHARAM...so became dallaeh malleh soon...


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

You write:



> The Difference in this Phrase is the QUALIFYING....*DHARAM BINA SABH DALLEH MALLEH HAIN.*
> The Writer says that although RELIGION cannot spread rapidly without POLITICAL POWER. HE *INSISTS* .that POLITICAL POWER MUST be *SUBSERVIENT TO DHARAM* !! IF DHARAM is neglected..then ABSOLUTE POWER will be CORRUPTED ABSOLUTELY..as is happening worldwide in many countries and so called Religious Countries !! Chaos results...


 
So the  answer lies in having a true democracy with the concept of Miri-Piri, then all religons will be able to breed harmony amongst them.

Then they say I am a dreamer....

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2009)

Tejwant ji

I don't think you are a dreamer. What you propose may sound like dreaming, but only by people are either unable or unwilling to overcome their cynicism -- which is often a justification for not thinking and trying harder.


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## ManinderSingh69 (Dec 29, 2012)

The views of Guru Gobind Singh on temporal sovereignty are given in his writing Krishan Avtar.

1)	Deg, Tegh Jag mein dohon chalen, 
Rakh lo moi aap, awar na dalen
meaning both my economic power and strength of arms should prevail in the world. Under your protection, none be able to trample me.24

2)	Koi kisi ko Raj na de hae 
Jo lai hai nij bal sit lai hae
meaning, no body gives self rule as a gift to another, 
it is to be seized through their own strength.25

3)	Raj bina neh Dharam chale hain 
Dharam bina sab dale male hain
meaning, that without political power Dharam does not prosper and without Dharam the society remains admixture of hoch poch.26

source:http://sikhinstitute.org/akaltakht06/13-surindersingh.html


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## spnadmin (Dec 29, 2012)

Nanak X was a brilliant man. From your same link 





> The creation of the Khalsa in 1699 was the most dynamic master stroke in converting ordinary Sikhs from lower strata of society into Sant Sipahis where the saint aspect guided them to be pious in nature and at the same time valiant soldiers in the field. It seems to be an admixture in Miri and Piri for every soldier to a limited extent. The integration of the temporal and spiritual aspects has been the most significant contribution of the Sikh Gurus’ to the totality of the Sikh way of life.



He also understood it takes a Gurmukh to balance "Raj bina neh Dharam chale hain 
Dharam bina sab dale male hain." Otherwise, these are only words. Nothing comes of it. It takes constant moral accounting, continual reflection on the consequences of  one's motives and actions.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 31, 2012)

Has anyone looked for this line in the Sarbloh Granth?


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## spnadmin (Dec 31, 2012)

If one follows up the link to Institute of Sikh Studies, the hymn is credited to Krishan Avtar.



> The views of Guru Gobind Singh on temporal sovereignty are given in his writing Krishan Avtar.
> 
> 3) Raj bina neh Dharam chale hain
> Dharam bina sab dale male hain
> ...



However, after earlier searching reported in this thread, and current searching, the couplet is not found in Krishan Avtar. Another theory is that it can be found in Surag Parkash. 

Does it appear in Sarbloh? For that again there does not seem to be a source.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 2, 2013)

ManinderSingh69 said:


> The views of Guru Gobind Singh on temporal sovereignty are given in his writing Krishan Avtar.
> 
> 1)	Deg, Tegh Jag mein dohon chalen,
> Rakh lo moi aap, awar na dalen
> ...




Maninder  Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let's be honest. We have no idea if the above verses are from Guru Gobind Singh ji, how inspiring they may be.

Let's not try to play Guru Gobind Singh ji. If he wanted those verses to be His, he would have added them to the SGGS, our only Guru, as he added his dad's; Guru Teg Bahadur's Gurbani, not only at the end but in between the SGGS where the context made sense.

It would be sheer arrogance on our part to think otherwise.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 11, 2013)

I asked about source of Raj Bina Nahi Dharam lines on Sikhnet and got this reply:



> In gurbilas patshai dasvi,Written by bhai sukha Singh JI.
> The pankti in question was said by Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur after concurring SIRHAND.


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I asked about source of Raj Bina Nahi Dharam lines on Sikhnet and got this reply:



Kanwaljit ji

Thanks for following up. Here is the problem. Can we actually find this in Gurbilas Patshai Dasvi, as a verbatim quote? If we can find it, then there is the problem of authentic quoting. The writings of Sukha Singh, particularly Gurbilas Patshai were written many years after the the life and death ofBaba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur, and are based on family stories, anecdotes and personal notes than cannot be verified. There are scholars that argue that accounts by Sukha Singh are infused with 19th Century theories about Guru Gobind Singh,  and regarding a past-era of Sikh history, biased toward sectarian viewpoints. Problematic!


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 11, 2013)

At least it is better to say that it 'could have' been said by Banda Singh Bahadur rather than Guru Gobind Singh.


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> At least it is better to say that it 'could have' been said by Banda Singh Bahadur rather than Guru Gobind Singh.





Yes, I would agree with you on that. And it sounds more like something that Banda Singh would have said. Actually I like the quote no matter who said it. This however is always the problem with "what Guru Gobind said."  I am not quarreling with you, just noting the difficulty of pinning down authenticity for anything related to Dasam Patshah. It is troublesome.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 11, 2013)

There is so much "kachi bani" floating around...ever since the time of GURU AMARDASS JI....that we have to be careful and use the litmus test of SGGS for each tuk...
IF it passes..it can be used..if it fails..discard it..
This is why Guru Amardass ji warned us in Anand Sahib.."Satgur Bina hor kachee bani..kehndeh kacche sundeh kaccheh kachhee aakh vikhanne.."  the *SATGUR* ingredient is a MUST.
Now with the IT..Internet etc..single tuks ( even form SGGS) taken OUT OF CONTEXT..spreading like wild fire to spread MISINFORMATION is getting so common..
Various jingles..like Sarson ki Mala..Naam khumaree Nnaka etc etc all are NOT Gurbani or Guru's words..but man made assertions seeking to be gurbani/guru sayings..

2. Problem with SIKHS..our historicla literature esp the post Guru Gobind Singh Ji one is in ARCHAIC BRIJ BHASHA..sant bhasha thats very difficult to understand or PINPOINT. Which SIKH has Sarb Loh granth Panth parksah etc etc at his finger tips ?? The Language etc is typical BIPPAR trick to MONOPOLISE the same way he did before the SGGS was written in COMMON Mans langauge to CIRCUMVENT this strangelhold on knowledge..same thing now happening to these so called Sikh granths...all huge..out of print..in difficult langauge etc make them inaccessible to the common SIKH..

3. SIKHS TRADITIONALLY BELIEVE anything..thats why for last hundred years they have been swalloing hook line and sinker whatever RUBBISH the sants brahmgyanis said...fake sakhis fairy tales with no basis day in and day out..even respected Sikh institutions simply make claims..its written in so and so granth etc..knowing very well NO BODY WILL CHECK...!!!


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 13, 2013)

Hehe for me this line is an inaccurate representation of Sikhi.

We need morality to run the politics. We don't need political control to run morals.

In the long run, a Sikh doesn't care for state, land, politics etc. Sikh survives anywhere he goes on Simran. That is the greatest strength. They can take away everything from us. Hang us upside down and even cut our hair. But they can never take Simran away from us while we breathe.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 13, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> At least it is better to say that it 'could have' been said by Banda Singh Bahadur rather than Guru Gobind Singh.




It also sounds more "GRAND" if MUKHWAAK Patshai dasveen..than plain old Banda singh said it...!!!  There is NOT a Single Mukhwaak pat 10 in the Original DG..just think about it..


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## singhbj (Jan 14, 2013)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

I think we should only look into Gurbani for True guidance as _"Satguru bina hor kachi he bani"_

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥
जोरु न राजि मालि मनि सोरु ॥  
Jor na rāj māl man sor.  
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.  
ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ = ਰਾਜ ਮਾਲ ਵਿਚ, ਰਾਜ ਮਾਲ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਿਚ। ਸੋਰੁ = ਰੌਲਾ, ਫੂੰ-ਫਾਂ।
ਇਸ ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਮਾਲ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਸਾਡਾ ਕੋਈ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਚੱਲਦਾ (ਜਿਸ ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਮਾਲ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਸਾਡੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਫੂੰ-ਫਾਂ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ।

For better understanding kindly read the Pauri at 

Source - http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=7&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=1

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## jatinderpal singh (Jul 5, 2020)

Dharam bina na raaj chale hai, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain" this is correct......line.


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## ManSinha (Jul 5, 2020)

The issue is this: When the Sikh Raaj is established - Raaj Karega Khalsa - will there be any proselytizing? Personally I think not - that is not our way - also there may be many willing to adopt Sikhi vs formally becoming Khalsa - so where is the line drawn? Both Islam and Christianity were partially spread at the point of the sword - Sikhs will not do that - while the quote makes sense - it would appear to be less applicable in the context of a Sikh Raaj

Personally I think the Guru ji created the image of the Khalsa _precisely for that reason__ - it simply cannot be forced on anyone - it needs to come from the heart _


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## ravneet_sb (Jul 6, 2020)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Dharam is an individual spiritual process, and politics is a collective spiritual way.

If the individual spiritual process, doesnot make the way of collective spiritual way that is politics, the level of individuals is not attained, and there will be no dharma ie individual sustenance also.
And there will be CHAOS or confusion prevailing.

ONE can easily reflect upon physical situations and mental states.  

And the correlation can be realised of meta physical reality.

Collective spirituality or ONENESS of spiritual persons shall come with understanding.

Only that will make it sustainable as dharma and for protection there is politics and policy making.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Admin (Jul 7, 2020)

Quote from: https://www.facebook.com

"Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain"

Ek Sampardaa Dey Veer Kehindey Ki Eh Guru Gobind Singh Ji Ney Keha Hoya Dasam Granth Vich. Par Asal Vich Eh Pangtiaa Ehna Cho Kisi Vi Granth Ch Nahi Han 1) Sri Dasam Granth; 2) Sarbloh Granth; 3) Bhai Gurdas Vaaran; 4)Bhai Nand Lal Gazala. Oh Veer Isnu Eh Keh Kay Parcharday Han Ki Guru Sahib Khalistan Banaun Day Chaahvaan han.
Par Asal Ch Eh Panktiaa Bhai Sukha Singh Nay *Gurvilas Patshahi 10vi* Vich Likhea Han. Eh Kitaab Ek History Book Hai Atay Eh Pankti Baba Banda Bahadur Dey Sirhand Fateh Dey Baad Di Halaat Bian Karday Hoye Kavi Nay Kavita Dey Style Ch Likhi Hai.
So Jo Veer Iss Poem/Kavita Nu Gurbani Kehinday Han; Oh Rabb Kolo Daran.
Jhooth Na Bolo, Gumrah Na Karo Ji........


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## ravneet_sb (Jul 8, 2020)

Kanwaljit.Singh said:


> Hehe for me this line is an inaccurate representation of Sikhi.
> 
> We need morality to run the politics. We don't need political control to run morals.
> 
> In the long run, a Sikh doesn't care for state, land, politics etc. Sikh survives anywhere he goes on Simran. That is the greatest strength. They can take away everything from us. Hang us upside down and even cut our hair. But they can never take Simran away from us while we breathe.


Sat Sri Akaal,

TRULY written and well said. we need *MORALITY TO RUN THE POLITICS,*

Are we running, are citizens having frame work for running politics,.

Are citizens who are seeking morality, are coming forward to decide on MORALITY of 

POLITICIANS and POLICE and policy makers.

or POLITICIANS are rules over TAX PAYERS, they can alter any rule for convenience.

For Eg

The new rule to reduce the public offence and teach them morality, challan  is made 50 times.

This was a very effective step, challans were reduced, people were carefull and morality was introduced by this WAY. But what about IMMORAL police implementing and exploiting common people. THERE SHALL  BE PROOF OF OFFENCE MANDATORY FOR CHALLANING. Do government has facility before imposing such NORM are they not aware of there practices.

And when Political Person do Corruption, than challan shall be seizing there wealth, which they have hoarded while ruling, and that will improve POLITICS.

Can citizen frame laws for LEADERSHIP to be ethical, than only political people will understand its not ruling but HIGHER MORAL SERVICE of humanity.

WORDS and PRACTICE of ESSENCE of WORD brings transformation in WORLD.

We are far way from practice, thought is GOOD, but better if implemented in REALITY and bring in PRACTICE.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Jul 13, 2020)

Sikhs can win but not retain. Why have we not claimed Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Khalsa kingdom from the British? Both Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and Maharaja Ranjit Singh established Khalsa Raj and not their own kingdoms; hence the right inheritor is the Khalsa for which it should fight.


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