# Caste And Banda Singh Bahadur



## dalsingh (Sep 5, 2006)

_This is from a manuscript completed in 1734 by Mohammad Shafi Warid._


After the death and defeat of Wazir Khan (who oversaw the execution of the two younger sahibzaaday) and the sack of Sirhind. Sirhind became the seat of that evil sect, they sent forces to the surrounding tracts and destroyed the families of those who had not bent their heads in obedience to them from older times.


Whether Muslim or Hindu, everyone who was not enrolled amongst his followers was put to the sword by those cruel men. Since the cruelty of that man (Banda) has been mentioned by this truthful pen, it is meet some lines are written about his habits and manners...*After the slaying of Wazir Khan he laid down that of Hindu or Muslims, whoever became enrolled amongst his Sikhs, should be of one body and take their meal together so that the distinction in honour between the lowly and well-born was entirely removed and all achieved mutual unison, acting together. A sweeper of spittle sat with a raja of great status, and they felt no hostility to each other.* He (Banda) thus initiated numerous innovations and strange practices and put them to effect..

WJKK
WJKF


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## learner (Oct 10, 2006)

Thank you DalSingh


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## dalsingh (Oct 10, 2006)

My pleasure Learner,

It was nice for me to find that despite lots of noise to the contrary from Sikhs today, our ancestors DID disregard caste for a time at least.


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## Randip Singh (Oct 11, 2006)

Hi Dal Singh,

Thanks for your inciteful and always welcome contributions.

I take it you are quoting from "Sikh History From Persian Sources"?

It is an excellent read, and gives a good viewpoint from people who were indifferent to Sikhs and had nothing to gain or lose in what they were saying.

It is also true that under Bandha, many Mazbhai's (Churah's and Chamaars) were elevated to positions of authority and govenership. Alas, they were all executed...........the make of who held lands and power in Punjab may have been very different if Bandha had survived.

Later on Kalal's, Jatt's and Tarkhan's became dominant and held Sikh power......under Ranjit Singh.


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## dalsingh (Oct 11, 2006)

Thanks Randip.

For me one of the most embarrassing element of being Sikh is living with the blatant hypocrisy of caste. I get tired of explaining it to people who ask.

I note how some people are now trying to twist facts to make their caste an "ethnic" origin, so desperate they are to cling onto it. I huess having a label that denotes your families ancestral trade isn't anything bad but the hatred by some to others is disgusting.

I wonder what the next few generations in the U.K. are going to make of it? I also notice how some of the younger lot are even more caste obsessed than their parents! I had one young guy ask me "so what caste are you" 2 minutes into a conversation in Gravesend.........

But we remain in chardhi kala, our people will learn...sooner or later.....I just hope I can see it before my time here is over...


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## Randip Singh (Oct 12, 2006)

dalsingh said:


> Thanks Randip.
> 
> For me one of the most embarrassing element of being Sikh is living with the blatant hypocrisy of caste. I get tired of explaining it to people who ask.


 
Yes I knw exactly what you mean.



dalsingh said:


> I note how some people are now trying to twist facts to make their caste an "ethnic" origin, so desperate they are to cling onto it. I huess having a label that denotes your families ancestral trade isn't anything bad but the hatred by some to others is disgusting..


 
I have noticed particularly Jatts, Tarkhans and Kalal's claiming high caste origins. Other castes alike Labana's, Bhatra's, Chamar's nd Churaah's etc are getting in on the act. All these are low castes...........the reason why they joined Sikhism was social upliftement.

People who espouse such views are usually ignorant of history.



dalsingh said:


> I wonder what the next few generations in the U.K. are going to make of it? I also notice how some of the younger lot are even more caste obsessed than their parents! I had one young guy ask me "so what caste are you" 2 minutes into a conversation in Gravesend.........


 
Next few generation's don't give a dam. They are not bothered....and what you find is especially the Mona's are not bothered......now what does that say about Sikhism?



dalsingh said:


> But we remain in chardhi kala, our people will learn...sooner or later.....I just hope I can see it before my time here is over...


 
True


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## dalsingh (Oct 12, 2006)

"Next few generation's don't give a dam. They are not bothered....and what you find is especially the Mona's are not bothered......now what does that say about Sikhism?"

I think for a Sikh male at least, having read your history and the fundamentals of the faith of your ancestors is a big, rich, rewarding and inspiring experience, whatever your background or position - unless you are seriously brainwashed by western society which seems increasingly to be the case these days.

You never know Randip, later generations may feel a spiritual gap in their lives and I'm pretty confident that when they research their roots they will be moved intensely. 

To know your ancestors, who generally came from the simplist of backgrounds, helped develop and defend a beautiful philosophy like Sikhism against all odds is something I feel all can be proud of (not in the negative fashion of course). Yes their are some awkward questions when we research our roots openly, but nothing that we can't survive.

It is the job of the Sikh intelligensia to produce and present their history in a manner befitting these modern times. Progress has been made but we need to go ALOT further. If God wills it, it will happen. When our scholars match the quality of publications produced by McLeod and others of his ilk in terms of language, and be open and truthful about negative aspects of our history we will be well on our way. 

Don't be so harsh on monay, some of the ones I know (all over 26 years of age) are deeply knowledgable of their roots and have a genuine love for it, even if they are kutcha billay (i.e. lax on rahit).


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## Randip Singh (Oct 12, 2006)

dalsingh said:


> "Next few generation's don't give a dam. They are not bothered....and what you find is especially the Mona's are not bothered......now what does that say about Sikhism?"
> 
> I think for a Sikh male at least, having read your history and the fundamentals of the faith of your ancestors is a big, rich, rewarding and inspiring experience, whatever your background or position - unless you are seriously brainwashed by western society which seems increasingly to be the case these days.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't mean to put down monay....quite the opposite......the most knowlegable Sikhs I know are Monay ............and some of the most ignorant have turbans and beards........usually at GnnSJ


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## dalsingh (Oct 12, 2006)

GnnSJ

Is this that place on Soho Road in Birmingham?


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## Randip Singh (Oct 13, 2006)

dalsingh said:


> GnnSJ
> 
> Is this that place on Soho Road in Birmingham?


 
Yes the very one.


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## dalsingh (Oct 13, 2006)

Saying that, some of the most coolest Sikhs I've met come from Birmingham. They are mad up there, some of them. Right up for it......lol

Mind you that was a good few years ago, don't know what it is like now.


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## Randip Singh (Oct 13, 2006)

dalsingh said:


> Saying that, some of the most coolest Sikhs I've met come from Birmingham. They are mad up there, some of them. Right up for it......lol
> 
> Mind you that was a good few years ago, don't know what it is like now.


 
Most Sikhs are cool and Gurudwara shoul be an enjoyable experience....unfortunately it is not enjoyable in that place namely because of the attitude of people at that place.


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## dalsingh (Oct 13, 2006)

I've never been in that Gurdwara, I must say. Met a few guys from Birmingham though.

I have heard that they have a very narrow minded view of Sikhi. This was from someone whode father was affiliated to the place.

I think it may be heavily influenced by African Tarkhan mentality. I'm just against those people who promote their version of Sikhi which totally plays down any militancy and warriorship which is a BIG part of our heritage and was critical to our survival. I'm pretty sure it will be again in this shakey world of ours....lol


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## Randip Singh (Oct 17, 2006)

dalsingh said:


> I've never been in that Gurdwara, I must say. Met a few guys from Birmingham though.
> 
> I have heard that they have a very narrow minded view of Sikhi. This was from someone whode father was affiliated to the place.


 

They don't treat Monay very well...on one occaision there I witnessed:

1) People shouting at Mona's who had had the ordasity to start helping distributing langaar. These guys basically started saying they were impure.

2) Man shouting at poor young girl becaue her Chunni had slipped off her head in the Langaar hall.

3) Picture of their Baba in the hallway, and yet they refuse to have pictures of the Guru's. Note that I am against having any pictures of Guru's or Baba's in Gurudwara's, bar in areas such as libraries in the Gurudwara for educational purposes.



dalsingh said:


> I think it may be heavily influenced by African Tarkhan mentality.


 
I wouldn't say that either. I have met Jatts, Khatri's, Chimba's etc from Kenya and they exactly the same mentality.....so I don't think its an exclusive Tarkhan thing.



dalsingh said:


> I'm just against those people who promote their version of Sikhi which totally plays down any militancy and warriorship which is a BIG part of our heritage and was critical to our survival. I'm pretty sure it will be again in this shakey world of ours....lol


 
My mother is from Kenya and their side of the family from Kenya is pretty militant. I have met Kenyan Tarkhan's here in the UK who are very nice guys..........and pretty darn tough. A chap I know, his dad was from Kenya, and he was the first Sikh soldier in the RAF Regiment (back in the 70's)....surname Sehmi, I think.

I think these guys at this place are just messed up,........their Baba.....Mr Dhanjal, saw decedance around him in Kenya, since the Kenyan Sikh's aquired wealth fast. While our people in India were travelling by Horse and Cart, Kenyan Sikh's were driving a Mercedes. Many of these guys drank........Mr Dhanjal apparently indulged in such activities (I maybe mistaken).......but saw the error of his ways and his reaction was extreme. He banned meat which he associated with alcohol. Ordered a strict code of conduct. It was probably what they (the Kenyan Sikh's needed at that time).

He also saw the Guruwara's splitting...fight's between Jatt's and Tarkhan's caused a seperate Rangarhia Gurudwara to form, excluding all caste's bar Tarkhan's (Lohar's etc). Mr Dhanjal probably thought he could unite these factions under a Sant/Baba following. He succeeded to an extent.

They are however, far too strict and dogmatic in their approach. A debate with a chap called HarjiSingh (Main Page) and some other fellows, which I witnessed revealed to me the fanaticism of such people. It is not healthy.


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## dalsingh (Oct 23, 2006)

Don't get me wrong Randip, one of THE toughest blokes I know is one from an African Tarkhan background. It is something else to see him knocking out guys twice his size, two at a time..... lol

But even he says the same thing that in general there is an excessive conservativeness in this section of Sikh society compared to others. I'm not saying that there aren't strong guys there but these are relative exceptions. 

You can tell when you sometimes go to a "Ramgarhia" Gurdwara and then a "Jat" one (yeah I know it shouldn't be but its reality right now). The latter usually have pictures of fighters on the wall and regular rousing dhadhi whilst the latter most often doesn't at all.

Plus I really wish I knew what happened in Africa to turn Jats and Tarkhans against each other so much, they REALLY hate each other from there! I don't feel the animosity is as strong between those people direct from the Panjab.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 25, 2006)

all this has nothing to do with SIKHI...I have more Monay friends..minus KESH/DASTAAR..BUT with Dhillon/Sidhu/SidhuBrar/Gill etc FIRMLY GLUED as last name....How much of a SIKH was Kimveer GILL...who made headlines by gunning down students in a school in canada recently..all this is a PUNJABIAT THING...and as long as we have PUNJABIAT we will never lose this...just looka t the GORAY SIKHS..ever seen anyone with Gill dhillon etc in his/her name ?? Thats becasue they are just SIKHS without the Punjabiat baggage..

Gyani Jarnail Singh


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## dalsingh (Oct 25, 2006)

Giani Ji,

I hate caste too but some aspects of Punjabiat also provides the quam with warriors. When such blood isn't managed properly with Sikhi, it often goes on to do stupid stuff, hence Kimveer and all the other dumbass violent drug dealing Punjabi thugs out their in Canada and UK.


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## dalsingh (Oct 26, 2006)

YouTube - Sikh Equality


I thought this link was slightly funny. Sort of relates to what we were talking about earlier.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 27, 2006)

Gurfateh

Had Punjabiat or Bihariat had anything to do with Warrier concept of Panth.Then why always Punjab regimanets of Pakistan is full deserters?

why Hindu Punjabi tends to stay away in living remotest corner of India,if there is least of compatriot and area is secluded.Sikhs have no such traits.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 10, 2006)

Vijaydeep singh ji,
funny you should bring this up..the Punjab lands in Pakistan are the BEST...when SIKHS cultivated them..Gold was coming out..now Pak Punjab is way behind indian Punjab ( whose lands are third rate when compared to the ones in pak Punjab )... Sikh Punjabis in the Indian Army gave such a crushing defeat to the Pak Punjabis in 1965, and 1971 wars...in all these cass PUNJABIAT is there..But one major difference..RELIGION.

2. Before Guru nanak ji-Guru Gobind Singh ji came on the scene..the very same Punjabiat...were "MOK MAARDEH" at the mere sight  of the Mughals...they didnt even know how or dared to cary a kitchen knife...then they not only carried swords, but rode horses to defeat the mughal armies and welded shut the Darrah Khyber...what did Guru sahibs CHANGE ?? ONLY RELIGION..all the other Punjabiat remained solidly the same...

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## dalsingh (Nov 10, 2006)

I take back what I said. 

It is right that it was Sikhi that caused some people of the Panjab to climb lofty heights. 

Maybe that section of Panjabis who were open minded, brave and inspired converted in higher numbers to Sikhi causing the difference between Sikh Panjabis and nonSikh Panjabis that is being mentioned.

I was alluding to the fact that many Panjabis from Sikh backgrounds are a fiery lot.


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