# Has Www.sikhsangat.com Been Infested By Intolerant Neo-fascists?



## Randip Singh (Oct 19, 2007)

.....by intolerant neo-fascists?

The reason why I asked is because Ilinked the following essay:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

....and I was threatened with a ban by that site?

What is going on?


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## Sherab (Oct 19, 2007)

Probably Yogi Bhajan supporters feeling offended about their cult leader who tell them to practice Kundalini yoga, not to eat meat, to wear all white, and practice his made up White Tantric Yoga.

I don;t mean to offend anyone, but anyone with the name "[SIZE=-1]_Siri_ _Singh Sahib_ Habhajan Singh _Khalsa Yogiji_" arouses suspicion in my mind...
[/SIZE]


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## Randip Singh (Oct 19, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Probably Yogi Bhajan supporters feeling offended about their cult leader who tell them to practice Kundalini yoga, not to eat meat, to wear all white, and practice his made up White Tantric Yoga.
> 
> I don;t mean to offend anyone, but anyone with the name "[SIZE=-1]_Siri_ _Singh Sahib_ Habhajan Singh _Khalsa Yogiji_" arouses suspicion in my mind...
> [/SIZE]




It's not about meat....it's about the general attitude and intolerance there......and 3 main groups seem to espouse intolerance there 1) AKJ, 2) 3HO and 3) GNNSJ.

I have noticed it change over time.....it doesn't represent the spirit of Sikhi anymore!


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2007)

randip singh said:


> .....by intolerant neo-fascists?
> 
> The reason why I asked is because Ilinked the following essay:
> 
> ...



Honestly speaking sikhsangat is quite an intolerant site with lot of fanatics.I have seen many people visit sikhsangat for seeking advice like they want to marry their sikh girlfriend
and they were immidiately attacked by members for having a girlfriend and how is it not allowed in sikhism to have girlfriend.

due to intolerance of members i now rarely post on that site.


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Probably Yogi Bhajan supporters feeling offended about their cult leader who tell them to practice Kundalini yoga, not to eat meat, to wear all white, and practice his made up White Tantric Yoga.
> 
> I don;t mean to offend anyone, but anyone with the name "[SIZE=-1]_Siri_ _Singh Sahib_ Habhajan Singh _Khalsa Yogiji_" arouses suspicion in my mind...
> [/SIZE]



sherab you are confusing sikhnet with sikhsangat.sikhnet.com is controlled by 3ho
while sikhsangat is mainly concerned with khalistan.i don't think that any of sikhs on sikhsangat are 3ho


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## Randip Singh (Oct 19, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Honestly speaking sikhsangat is quite an intolerant site with lot of fanatics.I have seen many people visit sikhsangat for seeking advice like they want to marry their sikh girlfriend
> and they were immidiately attacked by members for having a girlfriend and how is it not allowed in sikhism to have girlfriend.
> 
> due to intolerance of members i now rarely post on that site.



I have noticed that.

There was a time when it was a very mature site.......I am saddened that sites that our Sikh youth look to for answers have been taken over by such people....

....there are good people there I think like Balait Da Sher etc but I think they have been surpased by people from some groups like GNNSJ who seem to have a cult like influence in the UK and the AKJ which seems to have lost its way totally!


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## Sherab (Oct 19, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> sherab you are confusing sikhnet with sikhsangat.sikhnet.com is controlled by 3ho
> while sikhsangat is mainly concerned with khalistan.i don't think that any of sikhs on sikhsangat are 3ho


I am aware - Yogi Bhajan has helped som ppl get rlly interested in Sikhism, but i do not like him... I am more of a Khalistan supporter, however - but not to the extent of sikhsangat.com, I like to think I combine both views, really.


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2007)

randip singh said:


> I have noticed that.
> 
> There was a time when it was a very mature site.......I am saddened that sites that our Sikh youth look to for answers have been taken over by such people....
> 
> ....there are good people there I think like Balait Da Sher etc but I think they have been surpased by people from some groups like GNNSJ who seem to have a cult like influence in the UK and the AKJ which seems to have lost its way totally!



If i am not wrong due to dispute sikhsangat was divided and another forum which looks like carbon copy of sikhsangat www.forums.waheguroo.com was created.these 2 sites looks carbon copy of each other.


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## Randip Singh (Oct 19, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> If i am not wrong due to dispute sikhsangat was divided and another forum which looks like carbon copy of sikhsangat DiscoverSikhi.Com (Powered by Invision Power Board) was created.these 2 sites looks carbon copy of each other.




alas....I think they will divide further.....this sums up the very worrying trend of Sikhs splitting.....


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2007)

Veers ji

Help needed in order to follow discussion. I know who 3HO are. Who are AKJ and GNNSJ? and a little (not a lot) about their history.

Thank you


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 20, 2007)

Sehrab veerji,

apologies for asking your personal opinions...but if i am not wrong, you are not a punjabi sikh...why do you support Khalistan?

apologies if i have overstepped my limits


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## kds1980 (Oct 20, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> Veers ji
> 
> Help needed in order to follow discussion. I know who 3HO are. Who are AKJ and GNNSJ? and a little (not a lot) about their history.
> 
> Thank you



AKJ means akhand kirtani jatha means jatha 
AKj is a sikh sect which has one of very strictest of rehat.They strcitly impose vegetarianism and turban for women.their rehat clearly says that meat is one of the four cardinal sin.they also beleive that amritdhari are the only sikhs and some them even beleive that amrit available from them is only true amrit.quite  frankly thay are very orthodox sikhs.

here is their website from where you can gain information about them.
http://www.tapoban.org/

GNNSJ is also sikh sect.i don't have much knowledge about them
but here is the link where you can get information about them.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_Nishkam_Sewak_Jatha


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## Randip Singh (Oct 20, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> AKJ means akhand kirtani jatha means jatha
> AKj is a sikh sect which has one of very strictest of rehat.They strcitly impose vegetarianism and turban for women.their rehat clearly says that meat is one of the four cardinal sin.they also beleive that amritdhari are the only sikhs and some them even beleive that amrit available from them is only true amrit.quite  frankly thay are very orthodox sikhs.
> 
> here is their website from where you can gain information about them.
> ...



Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha started off by one Mr Dhanjal in Kenya I think. I think he experienced alcoholism in his family first hand and this was a reaction to it.


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## Randip Singh (Oct 20, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> Sehrab veerji,
> 
> apologies for asking your personal opinions...but if i am not wrong, you are not a punjabi sikh...why do you support Khalistan?
> 
> apologies if i have overstepped my limits



Hi Amar.....I got a lot of English friends who support Palestine.......is that not similar?


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## kds1980 (Oct 20, 2007)

randip singh said:


> Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha started off by one Mr Dhanjal in Kenya I think. I think he experienced alcoholism in his family first hand and this was a reaction to it.



do GNNSJ has its own maryada or they follow maryada of akal takhat?
Are they also fanatic vegetarians?


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## spnadmin (Oct 20, 2007)

Kds ji and Randip ji

Thank you for the information -- just the right amount so I can figure out the thread of conversation. Thanks for the links -- which I will  follow up.


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## Randip Singh (Oct 20, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> do GNNSJ has its own maryada or they follow maryada of akal takhat?
> Are they also fanatic vegetarians?



I think they have Vaishnavite links...they don't follow the Akal Takht Maryada......they keep close links with many Hindu Vashnavite groups and do get fanatical about vegetarianism.

The colours they use are also saffron and white and not the saffron and blue.......although they ban pictures of the Guru's from their temples, they have pictures of the Sant Mr Dhanjal............they were responsible for the Golden Temple guilding fiasco a few years ago where they ruined buildings and treasure  hundreds of years old..........


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## Sherab (Oct 20, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> Sehrab veerji,
> 
> apologies for asking your personal opinions...but if i am not wrong, you are not a punjabi sikh...why do you support Khalistan?
> 
> apologies if i have overstepped my limits


It does not take me to be Punjabi to support human rights.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 20, 2007)

> think they have Vaishnavite links...they don't follow the Akal Takht Maryada......they keep close links with many Hindu Vashnavite groups and do get fanatical about vegetarianism.
> 
> The colours they use are also saffron and white and not the saffron and blue.......although they ban pictures of the Guru's from their temples, they have pictures of the Sant Mr Dhanjal............they were responsible for the Golden Temple guilding fiasco a few years ago where they ruined buildings and treasure hundreds of years old..........



Intersting information...I never new that 

In recent past when Yoga Teacher Swami RamDev visted UK they assisted this guy to oraganise camp for Yoga ( which I think is oreety good thing keeping view sheer Health benefits of Yoga)
BUT the thing is AKJ and many other groups quite opposed thie move to support this Guy Ram dev ( just out of BrahminoPhobia!!!)


Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 21, 2007)

Randip veerji,

you cannot equate palestine with punjab.
though i understand wy people get involved with issues unrelated to them.
(though Palestine is part of bigger terrorism plot)

anyways, Sehrab ji, mine was just out of curiosity and not intended to intrude or demean your personal opinions.

I am amazed at the penetration of media achieved by pro khalistan supporters, which suprisingly find no currency with people "living in" punjab


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## dalsingh (Oct 21, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> I am amazed at the penetration of media achieved by pro khalistan supporters, which suprisingly find no currency with people "living in" punjab



That may be because many of those who did support such views in the Panjab "vanished" into thin air with the help of the Punjab Police. The rest are probably too terrified to openly express their views as a result.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 21, 2007)

> That may be because many of those who did support such views in the Panjab "vanished" into thin air with the help of the Punjab Police. *The rest are probably too terrified to openly express their views as a result.*




I can realte to later part of your statement. And dont thinkthis is concsious terror. this something that is at subconcious level of people as after all this turnmiol and bloodshed people just dont want to even visit this issue even in there thought s and just ignore this totally .

The mainm issue in India is about human right sand everybody is suffering and not just one community


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 21, 2007)

Dr Khalsa ji

i agree India doesnot have a great record for human rights, but everything is comparative right?

Dal veerji,

i know there were excesses done by Police and the legal system has been slow, but this does not mean that there is persecution of one community


 and terror is not of police, terror is of losing one's brother/sister to terrorists, who bombed in public places, shot openly, intruded people's house at night, even forcibly taking money at gun point( they called it Kar Seva ... LOL )


I know i am going to get the reason of Black Cats, and yadda yadda, religiousness of Khalistanis....

but thank you, if believing in India as my country and its constitution is a delusion, i am happy doing so


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 21, 2007)

all liberal minded sikhs must counter the fanatics.most sites are ONEMAN operated but carry grandiose titles like "PANTHIC"..KHALSA..etc as if the one man represents all sikhs or khalsas. What they promote must be taken with a ton of salt...best is to PROMOTE ACTIVELY sites such as this one SPN..One of the BEST if i may say so..
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2007)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> all liberal minded sikhs must counter the fanatics.most sites are ONEMAN operated but carry grandiose titles like "PANTHIC"..KHALSA..etc as if the one man represents all sikhs or khalsas. What they promote must be taken with a ton of salt...best is to PROMOTE ACTIVELY sites such as this one SPN..One of the BEST if i may say so..
> Gyani jarnail Singh



I agree with you gyani ji that SPN is the best.but the people who visit and contribuite on this site are quite small compare  to sikhsangat.On sikhsangat you have around atleast 30 to 40 posts per day but here the actual number of contribuiters are quite small.i don't what is the reason behind it.


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## Sherab (Oct 21, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> I agree with you gyani ji that SPN is the best.but the people who visit and contribuite on this site are quite small compare  to sikhsangat.On sikhsangat you have around atleast 30 to 40 posts per day but here the actual number of contribuiters are quite small.i don't what is the reason behind it.


Quality, not quanity...


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Quality, not quanity...



Because of this logic sikhism is going to die.you need both quality as well as quantity
quality emerges from quantity .without quantity there will be no quality.

let me give you give an example out of 100 so called sikh there is 1 true gursikh.if there are 1000 sikhs then chances are there will be 10 true gursikhs.but if only 10 so called sikhs left then there is chance that there will be no gursikh.so quantity is very important.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 21, 2007)

"harvesting" the souls?


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## Sherab (Oct 21, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Because of this logic sikhism is going to die.you need both quality as well as quantity
> quality emerges from quantity .without quantity there will be no quality.
> 
> let me give you give an example out of 100 so called sikh there is 1 true gursikh.if there are 1000 sikhs then chances are there will be 10 true gursikhs.but if only 10 so called sikhs left then there is chance that there will be no gursikh.so quantity is very important.


i was reffering too the number of psots, not sikhs, bhai-ji...


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> "harvesting" the souls?



there are 2 sides of religion miri and piri means political and spiritual.for ploitical side harvesting of souls is necessary


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2007)

Sherab said:


> i was reffering too the number of psots, not sikhs, bhai-ji...



but that logic is also applicable to posts.


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## Sherab (Oct 21, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> but that logic is also applicable to posts.


Of course, but do you really think we need alot of sikhs making posts?

While it helps, i'm sure, we need more sikhs, not more posts. Who cares if we get one new sikh that makes 20 posts - Why not 20 sikhs making one quality post?

I agree with what you're saying, but do you think ALOT of lower quality sikhs will truly help sikhism in the long run?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 21, 2007)

Lower Quality" sikhs..

wow!!

who decides?


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## kds1980 (Oct 22, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Of course, but do you really think we need alot of sikhs making posts?
> 
> While it helps, i'm sure, we need more sikhs, not more posts. Who cares if we get one new sikh that makes 20 posts - Why not 20 sikhs making one quality post?
> 
> I agree with what you're saying, but do you think ALOT of lower quality sikhs will truly help sikhism in the long run?



Just like in a school you cannot expect only toppers to study similarly on a site   we should not expect only posters who make top quality posts.We need all types of sikhs here.
After all who knows some of the the sikhs which you are calling lower quality could become great sikhs in future.


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## TGill (Oct 22, 2007)

Diamonds are always rare, otherwise they are not called diamonds. Whether they are sikh or hindu according to any definition doesn't matter. The rarity makes them diamond. Only diamonds matter not coal and they remain so whether they are called hindu or sikh.

Increasing base is an egoistical process. It only fans fanaticism !
Quality is always better than quantity. Look at sikh history. 

Sikhs lives for others not for themselves, others are not sikhs.. So how can non sikhs who would want to increase sikhism (or non sikhism) cos of their own interests make sikhs. Or otherwise tell me a person who has the power to make sikh out of a person like Guru Ji did. If not then it is better to start charity at home and be sikhs ourselves first.


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## kds1980 (Oct 22, 2007)

> Increasing base is an egoistical process. It only fans fanaticism !
> Quality is always better than quantity. Look at sikh history.



Even guru's send masand to spread the gurmat and that's why many people came into the fold of sikhism.do you think we are sikhs today because our ancestors went to guru's.NO it is because someone was spreading gurmat and our ancestors liked it and they embraced sikhism.

i said it earlier and i am saying it again that quality cannot emerge without quantity


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## TGill (Oct 22, 2007)

That is what I am saying the guru sent true masands then, who has the power now to send Masands, who can do that... Without guru's physical presence even masand's were corrupt.

Quality is not dependent on quantity, that is the property of quality.

Ok, for once lets assume all hindus become so called sikhs ( not the sikhs). What is that going to change except a few laws here and there. But yes it will poison the whole environment for sure.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 22, 2007)

randip singh said:


> alas....I think they will divide further.....this sums up the very worrying trend of Sikhs splitting.....


Carbon Copy ?? That is not "Dividing" per se...its called proliferating like bacteria do...or amoeba division...
These all are actually just "OMS"..One Man Show operating woth grandiose names like "Panthic".."Khalsa" etc to put up a false front as if they represent the entire Sikh kaum....FUNDING is no problem...although genuine sikh forums like SPN are alwsy cash strapped and asking for donations just to survive ?? Ring any bells ?? Take their advice with a ton of salt..especially twisted gurbani logic on meat and other issues..so many good sikh sites like SikhFM that offered Gurbani Kiratan fell victim to these "EKTA ONE" types which now ONLY sell Baba and Sants Kirtan and dhaarnas along with genuine Kirtan..the way unethical manufacturers bundle a useless "toy" with a good product...bad for Sikhi Parchaar...but lets not despair..continue to support the liberal genuinely sikhi sites like SPN...my favourite

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Randip Singh (Oct 22, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> I agree with you gyani ji that SPN is the best.but the people who visit and contribuite on this site are quite small compare to sikhsangat.On sikhsangat you have around atleast 30 to 40 posts per day but here the actual number of contribuiters are quite small.i don't what is the reason behind it.


 
SPN is by far the most maturest discussion forums on Sikh's and Sikhism.......sikh-history.com used to be good but seems to be very quiet.

What you find with Sikh Sangat is that one or two people are prolific posters there. The average age of people there is about 13, and many of them actually know each other in real life. So what they are in effect doing is publicising converstaions they may have privately on the internet......

Many people here are mature adults and do not have hours and hours to spend posting messages on the internet like 13 year olds....


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## kds1980 (Oct 22, 2007)

TGill said:


> That is what I am saying the guru sent true masands then, who has the power now to send Masands, who can do that... Without guru's physical presence even masand's were corrupt.
> 
> Quality is not dependent on quantity, that is the property of quality.
> 
> Ok, for once lets assume all hindus become so called sikhs ( not the sikhs). What is that going to change except a few laws here and there. But yes it will poison the whole environment for sure.



First of all  masands were created by guru amardas ji and masands became corrupted later.
also not all masands were corrupt.many spread gurmat

now to your second question that if all hindu's become sikhs.then spreading of gurmat will be much easier.chances are many true gursikhs will emerge from them.

now let us assume if population of sikhs will declined to 20,000 then according to indian constituition sikhism will cease to exist.to recognise as religion,caste,clan you should 
have atleast population of 30,000.The special rights that  given to sikhs like wearing turban at government services would be over.

I am really sorry to say but in this political world to keep your spitual path alive you desperately need quantity.


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## kds1980 (Oct 22, 2007)

randip singh said:


> SPN is by far the most maturest discussion forums on Sikh's and Sikhism.......sikh-history.com used to be good but seems to be very quiet.
> 
> What you find with Sikh Sangat is that one or two people are prolific posters there. The average age of people there is about 13, and many of them actually know each other in real life. So what they are in effect doing is publicising converstaions they may have privately on the internet......
> 
> Many people here are mature adults and do not have hours and hours to spend posting messages on the internet like 13 year olds....



In order to keep a forum alive new members should join and contribuite to forum from time to time.i have seen many sikhi forums which are dead but had good discussions earliar

Also i don't think that average age is 13 on sikhsangat.its too small to have mature discussion.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 22, 2007)

Discusion is going nice !

about the quantity and qualty I like the arguments fronm the sides and I have reached a conclusion thta both are required . either of them will not do 

I n my experience both can be achieved just by  removing the barriers we have been creating that prevented many spityual seekers from coming in cont\ct with Core of sikhism so  being more open and receptive will do I think so rather than appearing too much radicle and fundamentalist. its just my opinion so just take it lightly .


*
ONE IMPORTANT THING AND ADVICE : I THINK WE HAVE DISSCUSED OTHER FORUMS HERE ENOUGH AND MORE WE DO SO IS JUST INVITING TROUBLE AND  ALSO DOES NOT SEEMS NICE AS SPN IS ALSO FORUM AND FORUM BASHING JUST DOES NOT SEEMS RIGHT TO ME ANYWAYS WE HAVE ALREADY GOT THE POINT EVERYBODY WS TRYING TO MAKE . IHOPE YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS*


Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## kds1980 (Oct 22, 2007)

> about the quantity and qualty I like the arguments fronm the sides and I have reached a conclusion thta both are required . either of them will not do



I totally agree with you on this.


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## TGill (Oct 22, 2007)

Converting others to sikhism was never even done at Guru's time and should not be done now as well. My point is not when masands got corrupted (which happened during Guruji's time only) my point is that they did get corrupted even before Guru Granth ji bacame guru. Plus there is no one who can send true masands now.

I don't know why we underestimate hinduism as religion. 


> now to your second question that if all hindu's become sikhs.then spreading of gurmat will be much easier.chances are many true gursikhs will emerge from them.


The quality people even in hinduism are nothing but sikhs !

Secondly, why do we think Hindus won't think themselves superior the way we are thinking ourselves here. The result will be just pure poison.


- Well the message of the Gurus is misinterpreted I think. They wanted people to rise spiritually, they did not want to make empires of sikhs.



> I am really sorry to say but in this political world to keep your spitual path alive you desperately need quantity


 
Spiritual path has no religion first of all. Who can add qualitative quantity I'm not sure but yes just adding quantity without bringing quality will only kill this path for future generations. Look at christianity, look at islam.. Do you think they were so fanatic from the very beginning when Jesus was alive or when prophet was in his physical form.

Other thing is diamond itself attracts not coal. Be diamond then people will follow as simple as that.


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## TGill (Oct 22, 2007)

> about the quantity and qualty I like the arguments fronm the sides and I have reached a conclusion thta both are required . either of them will not do


 
Khalsa veer ji, you are right both are required but which path is taken to reach there is what matters. 

Path1 : Be so like our Guruji have told us to be that people see us and think that we want to be like them. This is what happened at Guruji's time.
Path2: Add more and more people in the name of one religion and attcahed politics that it breed pure poison and fanaticism, killing this path for future generations.


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## Randip Singh (Oct 22, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> *
> ONE IMPORTANT THING AND ADVICE : I THINK WE HAVE DISSCUSED OTHER FORUMS HERE ENOUGH AND MORE WE DO SO IS JUST INVITING TROUBLE AND  ALSO DOES NOT SEEMS NICE AS SPN IS ALSO FORUM AND FORUM BASHING JUST DOES NOT SEEMS RIGHT TO ME ANYWAYS WE HAVE ALREADY GOT THE POINT EVERYBODY WS TRYING TO MAKE . IHOPE YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS*



Sorry my fault........Iwas trying to find out if things had changed there........sorry for bashing!


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## kds1980 (Oct 22, 2007)

> Converting others to sikhism was never even done at Guru's time and should not be done now as well. My point is not when masands got corrupted (which happened during Guruji's time only) my point is that they did get corrupted even before Guru Granth ji bacame guru. Plus there is no one who can send true masands now.



I am not saying that people should be forcibily converted to sikhism.but its a fact that people embraced sikhism at the time of guru's.guru's send preachers to spread gurmat
gurmat was spread by guru's



> I don't know why we underestimate hinduism as religion.



its a big controversial topic.hinduism is not a religion like sikhism ,islam or christianity.it has thousands of different path in it.




> Spiritual path has no religion first of all. Who can add qualitative quantity I'm not sure but yes just adding quantity without bringing quality will only kill this path for future generations. Look at christianity, look at islam.. Do you think they were so fanatic from the very beginning when Jesus was alive or when prophet was in his physical form.



you are wrongly interpretting my message i am just saying that both quality and quantity are necessary.as far as islam is concerned again a controversial topic.anti islamic scholars like Ali sina claim that islam was fanatic from begining.



> Other thing is diamond itself attracts not coal. Be diamond then people will follow as simple as that.



sorry it happens in theory or in films not in real world.today christianity and islam control
more than 100 countries while religions like hinduism,buddhism,parsis lost their countries to them.if your logic is true then christianity and islam are diamonds while hinduism,budhdhism,parsi religion are coal


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## drkhalsa (Oct 22, 2007)

Randip Singh ji 

That was just reminder to everybody nothin specific ..but yes I know how we some time have to dissucss such things which are ususally essential but contraversial.. .. thanks for your post.



Kds and Gill ji

Nice disscusion going on but still you both seems to disagree on opinion  and its ok in discusion

One more thing I have observed in Punjab is rise of Christian missionary 
recent visist to Dist Moga ( Punjab) I found a very big Church  and big School attached and many locals told me that Christian are doing very agressive preaching and also in the teaching classes of preacher thy are mostly taught how to undermine other prevalent religion indirectly by pointing out their deficiencies . Similar preaching centres have come up all over punjab in Kapurthala, jallandhar .

Also very good point baout the christian missionary is that in my Home town Amritsar many top rated schools are christian school and any sensible parents would want to send there kid to one of them although there is very  good sikh school also ( SGHPS  where I studied with many branches)  so basically I mean to say theu are doing preety well on  the preaching front .

About Numbers of sikhs in my understanding yes for sikhs it should be worrying thing as can become limiting factor for the sikh culture to exist .

I agree that we should not be worried about number and always on the toes to make it number one just like Christianty and islam is trying to do But sikhs number is already to less and more over its on downward trend . many reason .

1. Family control program has been too much sucessful here in this part of India which  has further decreased the fertility of punjabis as whole ( and 80 % of sikh population in India  )

2. Keeping with modern culture many of our kids and friends are finding difficult to cope with Sikh Rehit maryada so they are slowly drifting away 

3 other preaching factions like Christianity , Dear sacha soda , dera Beas and many other have done much to rip off the sikh culture away from amny of us .

You just keeping in view such Things I tend to belive that as we are alreday small in number and still relatively decreasing in number so Number should worry us . well Still I dont knoe what is right thing ..


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## TGill (Oct 23, 2007)

> I am not saying that people should be forcibily converted to sikhism.but its a fact that people embraced sikhism at the time of guru's.guru's send preachers to spread gurmat
> gurmat was spread by guru's.



People embraced sikhism, it is a fact I agree but again they were lead by example and not by hollow preaching. So coming back to same point, who can lead by example now. We need to drastically change ourselves to lead by example. A change always start from few, and once started quality people will then embrace sikhism for sure. On the other hand if hollow preachers will start spreading gurmat and will try to convert people to sikhism by luring innocents, well thats what mughals did in history. Do we really want to tread mugals path or rather our guru's path afterall a sikh is one who learn from his guru.



> sorry it happens in theory or in films not in real world.today christianity and islam control
> more than 100 countries while religions like hinduism,buddhism,parsis lost their countries to them.if your logic is true then christianity and islam are diamonds while hinduism,budhdhism,parsi religion are coal


Christianity and islam control more than 100 countries, I think this number is even more but my point is not that. The point is what are these countries doing. Most of them are controlled by fanatics, people don't even have basic freedom. The ones which are progressive most of the people in those countries are not religious at all but are highly materialistic. Whatever I'm saying is not a fairy tale, I think it is totally practical. It is natural tendency to follow the light in darkness so lets begin the charity at home be the light the true gurus wanted us to be. To convert others and gain quantity and then move on sikh path is ridiculous concept as far as my understanding goes.


As far as coming of sikh missionaries is concerned, the fault lies in us. The deteorating quality is the reason. When sikh leadership is so poor who can show the true path to the common people. I truly think that the need of the hour is to get up and follow what Gurus have taught us. 
It is not a fairy tale but very much practical. It can start at the grassroot level of each village and town. We just need to be more progressive at personal levels.


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## kds1980 (Oct 23, 2007)

> People embraced sikhism, it is a fact I agree but again they were lead by example and not by hollow preaching.



People embraced sikhism by example and by preaching.All types of sikhs existed .please do not think that all sikhs were true gursikhs at the time of guru.



> We need to drastically change ourselves to lead by example. A change always start from few, and once started quality people will then embrace sikhism for sure.



Agreed with it that we need to change ourself first.but for political side quantity is also necessary.Let us assume if 1000 gursikhs are leading  life as an example in pakistan
and after watching them 10,000 muslims wants to embrace sikhism then would the muslim pakistani government allow them to leave islam and join sikhism.The answer is no.This world is political and without political side of your spiritual will also die.



> well thats what mughals did in history. Do we really want to tread mugals path or rather our guru's path afterall a sikh is one who learn from his guru.



Mughals forcibly converted people I am not at all saying that we should forcibly convert people to sikhism again you are wrongly interpretting my post.



> Christianity and islam control more than 100 countries, I think this number is even more but my point is not that. The point is what are these countries doing. Most of them are controlled by fanatics, people don't even have basic freedom



If we don't care about our quantity then these will also take over us and then preaching and embracing sikhism is also going to be banned.The biggest example of religion that never cared about quantity is the parsi religion.In terms of material wealth parsis are richest religion on earth but there religion is going to be extinct.At the start of century
there were 120000 parsis were living in india while now there are approximately only 70,000 are living in india.while other religion incraesed 4 to 5 times there population actualy declined.



> To convert others and gain quantity and then move on sikh path is ridiculous concept as far as my understanding goes.
> 
> 
> As far as coming of sikh missionaries is concerned, the fault lies in us. The deteorating quality is the reason. When sikh leadership is so poor who can show the true path to the common people.



agreed quality should be improved but do not underestimate the power of quantity
without quantity quality cannot survive.


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## TGill (Oct 23, 2007)

> People embraced sikhism by example and by preaching.All types of sikhs existed .please do not think that all sikhs were true gursikhs at the time of guru.


 
No one embraces other religion by preaching, any person need incentive to change and it is a simple law of human psychology. Only true gursikhs told people the true way of life (now called sikhi) which people embraced cos they could see the advantage (incentive) through the example which these gursikhs presented.




> after watching them 10,000 muslims wants to embrace sikhism then would the muslim pakistani government allow them to leave islam and join sikhism


 
They won't allow in any case even if we use political stunts. But if we lead by pure example these 1000 muslims will know a right path internally if not externally.




> Mughals forcibly converted people I am not at all saying that we should forcibly convert people to sikhism again you are wrongly interpretting my post.


 
Forcible convertion is just a single side. They converted others by luring others using money, lands and women as well. Will sikh start converting others using such tactics or by misguiding innocents cos if one doesn't know truth himself he can only misguide.




> At the start of century
> there were 120000 parsis were living in india while now there are approximately only 70,000 are living in india.while other religion incraesed 4 to 5 times there population actualy declined.


 
I think you are presenting numbers in wrong way. This is not an example of non-preaching but a perfect example of quality deterioration. The only need of the hour is lead by example the quantity will follow for sure. Incentive for change is the biggest truth about human nature.


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## kds1980 (Oct 23, 2007)

> No one embraces other religion by preaching, any person need incentive to change and it is a simple law of human psychology. Only true gursikhs told people the true way of life (now called sikhi) which people embraced cos they could see the advantage (incentive) through the example which these gursikhs presented.



You are right preaching was not the only reason for people to embrace sikhism.there were
several reasons for which people joined sikhism.some joined sikhism to enhance there caste status,while others joined sikhism because muslims were quite hostile towards hinduism and for protection they joined sikhism.so please don't think that the only reason people joined reason was because they saw quality people.Preaching,quality people,fear of muslims,caste, place in sikh army etc were factors behind embracing sikhism.



> They won't allow in any case even if we use political stunts. But if we lead by pure example these 1000 muslims will know a right path internally if not externally.



pakistan was just an example to show you power of quantity.its a lost case now.
people cannot embrace sikhi where guru nanak dev ji was born.Tommorow if fanatic hindu's ,muslims,or christian will take over punjab then the same thing is also going to happen.



> I think you are presenting numbers in wrong way. This is not an example of non-preaching but a perfect example of quality deterioration. The only need of the hour is lead by example the quantity will follow for sure. Incentive for change is the biggest truth about human nature.



It is an example of non preaching.Quality wise you cannot say that parsis are bad.infact 
there are no fanatics in parsis.they never came  in conflict with other religions.may be they are not as much spiritual.

as far incentives are concerned you are right but many people do get attracted to religion
because of its simple teachings.


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## dalsingh (Oct 25, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> Dal veerji,
> 
> i know there were excesses done by Police and the legal system has been slow, but this does not mean that there is persecution of one community
> 
> ...



I personally feel you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs about India. I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads. 

I don't condone any killing of innocent people for the record, by whatever side. Those claiming to be doing so in the name of the SIkh cause are significantly worse than those on the sarkaar side. A Singh should damn well know better. But as you know Amar, it is difficult to determine how much of the random killings were done by Black Cats and how many by genuine Khalistanis.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 25, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> I personally feel you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs about India. I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads.
> 
> I don't condone any killing of innocent people for the record, by whatever side. Those claiming to be doing so in the name of the SIkh cause are significantly worse than those on the sarkaar side. A Singh should damn well know better. But as you know Amar, it is difficult to determine how much of the random killings were done by Black Cats and how many by genuine Khalistanis.


 

Correct Dal veer ji

so finally we see each other's view point correctly.

without having correct numbers/details we must no blindly accpt the propoganda machines, of any type.


but on your point <<I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads. >>

i feel that a person living "in" India must abide by its laws and respect the country's sovereignity.

Else getting a passport and immigrating is very easy nowadays.


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## dalsingh (Oct 25, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> Correct Dal veer ji
> 
> so finally we see each other's view point correctly.
> 
> ...



Sikh sovereignty is also a  real concept that was earned through sacrifice and blood and then lost. I'm not surprised people yearn for it. I am one of them.  That doesn't make me people like me a terrorist, the world (including India) needs to understand that.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 26, 2007)

yes

you are entitled to yearn fr sikh soverignity.

But if it undermines sovereignity of India, every indian is entitled to consider the person an enemy of the nation, and the act, an act of sedation.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 26, 2007)

Dear Dalsingh ji

Its not me who has closed the thread But May be AMAN ( administrator) due to obvious reason2

1.The discussion you want to do was not related to topic 

2.The topic itself was not appropiate about disscusing oyher forum 

 well you can continue the disscusion in the new thread you have started  and we can name it  appropiately as currently it says AMAR SANGHERA

Plz Suggest a name and we can change it 

Thanks


Jatinder Singh


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## drkhalsa (Oct 26, 2007)

Dear Dalsingh ji

Its not me who has closed the thread But May be AMAN ( administrator) due to obvious reason2

1.The discussion you want to do was not related to topic 

2.The topic itself was not appropiate about disscusing oyher forum 

 well you can continue the disscusion in the new thread you have started and we can name it appropiately as currently it says AMAR SANGHERA

Plz Suggest a name and we can change it 

Thanks


Jatinder Singh


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