# What Is Wrong



## gogi (Jun 13, 2007)

*Was It Pre destined?*

A question that has been my constant companion for quite some time is “ As to why do we do wrong or commit something that is branded as wrong as per sikhi”. 

I have been asking this from many persons but all of them laughed at and never answered. The search is on. It has been stated that everything is as per destiny and most rather all of things are preordained. Let us have a look as to how Gurbani tells us.

From the Word, comes destiny that is written on one's forehead[1]. More so, even the union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.[2] Those who have not sought the Sanctuary of the True Guru and the Sangat, the Holy Congregation-cursed are their lives, and cursed are their hopes of life[3] but those humble servants of the Lord who have attained the Company of the True Guru, have pre-ordained destiny inscribed on their foreheads[4]. By destiny, I shall meet with the Guru. Those who have such destiny come to meet the True Guru[5]. I repeat that it is by perfect good fortune, one meets the True Guru when one's destiny shows this.[6] Even same can be said to be meeting the Sangat or the holy congregation.

We also enter into the realm of the Lord's Love if that is pre ordained[7]. The Flower and the Fruit of the Lord's Love are obtained by destiny only.[8] We all act according to the pre-ordained destiny that no one can erase[9].
No one shall be absorbed in His love unless it is pre-ordained. Even those Gurmukhs who pre-ordained destiny written on their foreheads will remain absorbed in the Lord's Love[10]. 
Everything seems to be pre-destined. Right from the meeting of the Guru and remembering Him and finally getting out of the mess of Maya. It all seems to be under the wider game plan of the nature. Thus our all actions towards religion and spirituality are pre destined. We do not seem to possess any free will. All that we can do is to act per the Gurmat and expect nothing or hope for nothing. 

However, doing anything that may not be approved by Gurmat will also fall with in the Zone of something pre destined. In that case why should one believe that 
one can get out of the re-incarnation cycle out Of turn. He must have planned something for us in any case as to when we shall be out of these incarnations. I shall be grateful If some one can give a take of SGGS ji as to how to bring destiny in our favor so that we also get something as early as possible. Is there anything in Gurmat that suggests that one can get something out Of turn. 

The question thus boils down as to whether I have the capacity to go out of my powers and do something that is not pre- destined. If not, then what ever I do shall be as per Destiny. Even If it is wrong it will be as per destiny. Thus the future Lives will also get decided on the basis of the present actions that were completely pre-destined. Where is the role of poor intellect to improve upon? 

I hope even that I write to you is also predestined. If so what is the worth of mankind to act as per that is not pre-destioned. Life shall continue as per pre decided pattern and shall take me as per that is pre destined and the same shall be applicable to most of us or rather all of us.

The basic question that remains to be answered is that we act 'wrong' because it is pre destined. How can we say that all goods are pre destined and all bads are our doing. ?

Would like to be guided.






[1]AKrw isir sMjogu vKwix(4-8, jpu, mÚ 1)

[2] sMjogu ivjogu duie kwr clwvihlyKy Awvih Bwg ] (6-19, jpu, mÚ 1)

[3] jo siqgur srix sMgiq nhI Awey iDRgu jIvy iDRgu jIvwis ]3] (10-6, gUjrI, mÚ 4)

[4] ijn hir jn siqgur sMgiq pweI iqn Duir msqik iliKAw ilKwis ] (10-7, gUjrI, mÚ 4)

[5] ijn kau pUrib iliKAw iqn sqguru imilAw Awie ]4] (27-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[6] pUrY Bwig sqguru imlY jw BwgY kw audau hoie ] (31-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[7]pUrib ilKq ilKy guru pwieAw min hir ilv mMfl mMfw hy ]1] (13-9, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 

[8]Pulu Bwau Plu iliKAw pwie ] (25-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

[9] pUrib iliKAw kmwvxw koie n mytxhwru ]3] (27-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[10] Duir msqik ijn kau iliKAw sy gurmuiK rhy ilv lwie ]1] rhwau ] (27-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)


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## roopk (Jun 13, 2007)

As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.
I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.
O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord INCARNATED Himself.

Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||(ang 1409)

I think the quote at ang 1409 should give some kind Of an answer. Many learned will also opine.


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## simpy (Jun 13, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*




			
				gogi said:
			
		

> “ As to why do we do wrong or commit something that is branded as wrong as per sikhi”.


 
*answer to this is -ONE IS NOT FOLLOWING GURU JI's WORD- NOT LIVING IN HUKAM........*




*paapi punni aakhan naahi kar kar karna likh le jah aapey beej aapey hi khah.............*

*munda santokh saram pat jholi dhyaan ki kareh bhibhoot*
*khintha kaal kuaari kayaa jugat dandaa parteet.............*

*(japuji sahib, we read it everyday)*

*and many many more Guru Ji's WORD.............*

*Eh tan dharti beej karma karo salil apaaoo sarangpani*
*Man kirsaan riday jamaai le…………………*

*Amal kar dharti beej sabdo kare…………………..*


*this is what me neech thinks, Dhan Dhan Guru JI answers every possible question..................*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Parma (Jun 13, 2007)

Life is a progression. Your destiny is that you will die, but you dont know how you will die this is progression. If I study hard Im destined to learn, but will i be able to teach what I have learned that would be progression. Simply when it comes to other faiths aswell. Jesus was destined to be born, but they also say he was tempted. Now had he followed his temptations he would have progressed to sin and not be destined to be a savour. Its a balance, i'd say of pregression then of the fruits you receive you are destined. Just like if I train and workout, I'll have a good body, its the progression of the training that has led me to have the good body destined. No doubt if you play with fire your bound to get burned. If it makes sense sound, if not fine!!! Will please let me know if the gurbarni comes out with the same answer please!! Common sense when you look at it this way? ainit??:advocate::rofl!!:


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## roopk (Jun 14, 2007)

I think the best way of this would be to see if 'Gurbani' offers any 'free- will' to human being . If the answere is yes, one can state that the man had his choice to do the thing in the best manner to his spritual advantage. If the answer is other wise , it can be stated that there is no chouce except to do as per gurmat and and leave everything to the Almighty. It is also fairly well known that Our theory Of Karma is not well defined and pointed.

Destiny cannot be changed. It has been stated more than 100 places and more than 10 places have already been quoted in the question. Surinder ji, ,if it is convenient to her, may kindly like to point if there is some element Of free will in human actions as pewr 'Gurbani'.


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## Parma (Jun 14, 2007)

There must be some free will. Think about it, if there is no free will then there cant be any religion faith or anything. Whats the point of the gurus teaching anything for we cant change as we are destined. The will of god. So to change your ideas to think the way they have taught you to think would also be against the will of god as well, wouldnt it, as you are breaking the mould of who you are and changing your ways. Breaking your destiny and then gods will! Whats the point in working! Whats the point in anything!! All stops as we are waiting for destiny. To furfill a destiny you must have some free will otherwise i guess you would stay seated wherever you are! I dont know I hope gurbarni has some answers otherwise its all over isnt it!!!


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## simpy (Jun 14, 2007)

*Respected and Righteous Roopk Ji,*

*What me neech can tell you, you know all.... Today's Hukamnaama says it all OUTLOUD anyways........................*

*after reading your post in this thread and after reading respected hukamnaama, me neech thinks that it all depends on what is your definition of FREEWILL.*


*forgive me please*


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## simpy (Jun 14, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*Guru Sahib has said this many times- jo jo beejay so luney, in different ways.**In Japji Sahib Guru Sahib Ji tells us how to live our life. And the same is repeated again and again all the way in Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. If someone still have questions, then we neech can only pray for them. Very sorry if it hurts anybody in any manner. Satguru Di agyaa da paalan- Living His Will**and His Will is described starting the very First Panna of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.**If after being a true Sikh, a person doesn't follow that, what can somebody do???????*

*like:*




			
				gogi said:
			
		

> _“ A__s to why do we do wrong or commit something that is branded as wrong as per sikhi__”. _*I have been asking this from many persons but all of them laughed*_ at and never answered._


*karna ta aap hi paina hai, mannana ta aap hi paina hai, kise ne ta aa ke nahee karnaa .......**sahmne pakki pakaaee pai hai, chak ke khaani ta aap hi paini hai.....*

*ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]**hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw** nwi**l ]*
*hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]**nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY kh**Y n koie** ]*

*kQnw kQI n AwvY qoit ]**kiQ kiQ kQI kotI koit koit ]**dydw dy lYdy Qik pwih ]**jugw jugMqir KwhI Kwih ]**hukmI hukmu clwey rwhu ]**nwnk ivgsY vyprvwhu ]**swcw swihbu swcu nwie BwiKAw Bwau Apwru ]**AwKih mMgih dyih dyih dwiq kry dwqwru ]**Pyir ik AgY rKIAY ijqu idsY drbwru ]**muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ]**AMimRq vylw scu nwau vifAweI vIcwru ]**krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ]**nwnk eyvY jwxIAY sBu Awpy sicAwru ]*

*Awpy Awip in**rMjnu soie ]**ijin syivAw iqin pwieAw mwnu ]**nwnk gwvIAY guxI inDwnu ]**gwvIAY suxIAY min rKIAY Bwau** ]*

*j**yqI isriT aupweI vyKw ivxu krmw ik imlY leI ]**miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy iek gur kI is**K suxI**]*

*jy iqsu ndir n AwveI q vwq n puCY ky ]**kItw AMdir kItu kir dosI dosu Dry ]**nwnk inrguix guxu kry guxvMiqAw guxu dy ]**qyhw koie n suJeI ij iqsu guxu koie kry ]..*


*.......................**If after reading all this a Sikh does not understand what Guru Ji is talking about, then me neech can only remember Guru Ji's words:*

*kbIr swcw siqguru ikAw krY jau isKw mih cUk ]*
*AMDy eyk n lwgeI ijau bWsu bjweIA**Y PU**k**]*


*h**umbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*



*rwj lIlw qyrY nwim bnweI ]**jogu binAw qyrw kIrqnu gweI ]1]**srb suKw bny qyrY El@Y ]**BRm ky prdy siqgur Kol@y ]**1] rhwau ]**hukmu bUiJ rMg rs mwxy ]**siqgur syvw mhw inrbwxy ]3]**ijin qUM jwqw so igrsq audwsI prvwxu ]**nwim rqw soeI inrbwxu ]2]**jw kau imilE nwmu inDwnw ]**Bniq nwnk qw kw pUr Kjwnw ]4]*

__________________


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## simpy (Jun 14, 2007)

*another one of Guru Ji's word that is telling what to do for us moors:*

*gauVI cyqI mhlw 1 ] AauKD mMqR mUlu mn eykY jy kir idRVu icqu kIjY ry ] jnm jnm ky pwp krm ky kwtnhwrw lIjY ry ]1] mn eyko swihbu BweI ry ] qyry qIin guxw sMswir smwvih AlKu n lKxw jweI ry ]1] rhwau ] skr KMfu mwieAw qin mITI hm qau pMf aucweI ry ] rwiq AnyrI sUJis nwhI lju tUkis mUsw BweI ry ]2] mnmuiK krih qyqw duKu lwgY gurmuiK imlY vfweI ry ] jo iqin kIAw soeI hoAw ikrqu n myitAw jweI ry ]3] suBr Bry n hovih aUxy jo rwqy rMgu lweI ry ] iqn kI pMk hovY jy nwnku qau mUVw ikCu pweI ry ]4]*

*gauVI cyqI mhlw 1 ] AauKD mMqR mUlu mn eykY jy kir idRVu icqu kIjY ry ] jnm jnm ky pwp krm ky kwtnhwrw lIjY ry ]1] mn eyko swihbu BweI ry ] qyry qIin guxw sMswir smwvih AlKu n lKxw jweI ry ]1] rhwau ] skr KMfu mwieAw qin mITI hm qau pMf aucweI ry ] rwiq AnyrI sUJis nwhI lju tUkis mUsw BweI ry ]2] mnmuiK krih qyqw duKu lwgY gurmuiK imlY vfweI ry ] jo iqin kIAw soeI hoAw ikrqu n myitAw jweI ry ]3] suBr Bry n hovih aUxy jo rwqy rMgu lweI ry ] iqn kI pMk hovY jy nwnku qau mUVw ikCu pweI ry ]4]*

*Gurmukhi Translations(Bhai Sahib Bhai Sahib Singh Ji):*



> *ArQ :—hy BweI ! jy qµU jnmW jnmWqrW dy kIqy mMdy krmW dy sMskwrW ƒ k`tx vwly prmwqmw dw nwm lYNdw rhyN, jy qUµ (aus nwm dy ismrn ivc) Awpxy ic`q ƒ p`kw kr leyN, qW (qYƒ XkIn Aw jwiegw ik) mn dy rog dUr krn vwlI sB qoN vDIAw dvweI pRBU dw nwm hI hY, mn ƒ v`s ivc krn vwlw sB qoN vDIAw mMqR prmwqmw dw nwm hI hY [1[*
> *hy BweI ! (ivkwrW vloN bcw skx vwlw) mn dw rwKw iek pRBU-nwm hI hY (aus dy gux pCwx), pr ijqnw icr qyry iqRguxI ieMdRy sMswr (dy moh) ivc ru`Jy hoey hn, aus Al`K prmwqmw ƒ smiJAw nhIN jw skdw [1[rhwau[*
> *hy BweI ! AsW jIvW ny qW mwieAw dI pMf (hr vyly isr auqy) cukI hoeI hY, swƒ qW Awpxy AMdr mwieAw S`kr KMf vrgI im`TI l`g rhI hY, (swfy Bw dI qW mwieAw dy moh dI) hnyrI rwq peI hoeI hY, (ijs ivc swƒ kuJ id`sdw hI nhIN, qy (auDroN) jm-cUhw swfI aumr dI l`j tu`kdw jw irhw hY (aumr GtdI jw rhI hY) [2[*
> *hy BweI ! Awpxy mn dy ip`Cy qur ky mnu`K ijqnw BI au~dm krdy hn, auqnw hI du`K vwprdw hY [ (lok prlok ivc) soBw auhnW ƒ imldI hY jo gurU dy snmuK rihMdy hn [ jo (inXm) aus prmwqmw ny bxw id`qw hY auhI vrqdw hY (aus inXm Anuswr) jnmW jnmWqrW dy kIqy krmW dy sMskwrW dw smUh (jo swfy mn ivc itikAw ipAw hY, Awpxy hI mn dy ip`Cy quirAW) imtwieAw nhIN jw skdw [3[*
> *nwnk (AwKdw hY) jo mnu`K pRBU dy crnW ivc pRIq joV ky aus dy pRym ivc rµgy rihMdy hn, auhnW dy mn pRym-rs nwl sdw nkw-nk Bry rihMdy hn, auh (pRym qoN) ^wlI nhIN huMdy [ jy (swfw) mUrK (mn) auhnW dy crnW dI DUV bxy, qW ies ƒ BI kuJ pRwpqI ho jwey [4[4[16[*




*English Translations(SikhiToTHeMax): *


> *Gauree Chaytee, First Mehl:*
> *O mind, there is only the One medicine, mantra and healing herb - center your consciousness firmly on the One Lord.*
> *Take to the Lord, the Destroyer of the sins and karma of past incarnations. ||1||*
> *The One Lord and Master is pleasing to my mind.*
> ...




*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Parma (Jun 14, 2007)

Surinder ji, I like what you've written. Any chance you would be so kind to translate it all into english for sikhs who are learning, but it doesnt make the idea of destiny and Free-will any clearer. 
If we are all pre-ordained then whats the point of progress? Seems like nothing I will ever do will be good enough to leave the process of life and birth, as it may not be in my destiny. Whats the point in changing and believing anymore still going to hell!!! HOPE IS LOST BY THIS PROCESS OF THOUGHT!! I Thought you could acheive mukthi via sikhism> looks like no matter how hard i try, even if I give it my all!! It wont happen if its not meant to be!! Saying that if I still dont understand then you will pray for me is no good, because I need to understand. In other words the sikh community gives up and thats why it wont increase no one is willing to explain. To promote or develop. Otherwise all people, not just me, will turn somewhere else for there answers Other religions maybe. In the end when people have stopped gaining answers things dont grow and in the end the knowledge is not passed on and the knowledge of what all the gurus did to gain and distribute is lost forever!! Please be clearer on this subject for this humble minded soul. Thanking you in abundance!!!


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## roopk (Jun 15, 2007)

Originally Posted by *gogi* 
_“ As to why do we do wrong or commit something that is branded as wrong as per sikhi”. *I have been asking this from many persons but all of them laughed* at and never answered._



_Surinder ji,_

_I think the question asked is simple. The question is _
_" as to why anyone comits wrong.'" _
_Is it destined to be so as nothing can happen unless He wills it to be so. _

_I am sure that ,with your knowledge Of sikhism , you may like to check as to why the first wrong happens in the first place ,may be, million years ago or may be more. _

_Can I meet HIM today._
_Probably not as HE has not destined it like this._

_ But I can do my prayers as HE has destined . _

_If I fall sick , I may miss prayers . _

_Thus I have committed a wrong by not prayoing even though I would have wished it other wise. _
_He wanted me to fall sick and the consequences follows natuirally._

_You have a wonderful memory and can quote something that may say that I had some free will  still to do my prayers._
_It is just an example that I have cited. There may be much more oppurunities where I may do something that is not as per Sikhi values._
_I am in agreemet with Mr. Parma when he_  says that we must have some element of free will so that we can be held responsible for that we do.


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## simpy (Jun 15, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*Guru's Word must be precious for a Sikh..................*

*and Guru Ji says:*

*Sevak Sikh Poojan Sabh aavey Sab gaavey Har Har Uttam Bani Gaaveyaa Suneyaa tin ka thaaey pavey jin Satguru Ki aagyaa Sat Sat Kar Maani.......*

*Gurmukh And Manmukh, both terms have been mentioned By Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib very many times...........*

*and as a Sikh, this is our duty to follow Guru Ji's instructions faithfully........*

*Suneyaa Manneyaa Man Keeta bhao...........*

*Bharam Ke Parde Satguru kholey.....................*

*A Sikh's Destiny is Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji............*

*If a nonSikh has thoughts of judging Guru Ji's word, we can only pray for them........*

*If a Sikh has thoughts of judging Guru Ji's word, Guru Ji says about them: slaam jabaab dovay karey mundho ghuthaa jaaey..............Saacha Satgur Keyaa Karey jo Sikha mein chook.............. and again we can only pray for them.......*

*humbly asking for eveybody's forgiveness*


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## roopk (Jun 15, 2007)

Dear Parma ji,

I do not think that we are proceeding at any concrete point. If you refer to gurbani, please refer to it. I shall also refer to and shall repond back if I come across 'free-will' in SGGS ji. 

However, as per my little know of the things there may not be anything like free will as the concept of Karma and the Incarnations etc,.. are not developed in sikhism. We shall have to borrow from the conventional hinduism or Vaishnavism. It shall be a subject of long research.There is no point harping on the same thing time and again.

You may try to put the question at some other forum where there is wider participation. Here we are just three Of us.

Regards


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## GuruPyaara (Jun 15, 2007)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
indeed


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## simpy (Jun 15, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji, *

*one another thought me neech like to share:*

*there is no way a religion or Guru Ji's word is finished or goes down the drain if a few or many people don't like it........Guru Ji always says: it is virlaa/only a few/ who are able to recognize the Truth..........*

*Guru is not limited, Word is THE TRUTH, that never dies...... doesn't matter if many don't recognize it.............*

*There are lots of people who dont listen to Guru Ji faithfully, it doesn't effect the faith of the faithful............. it simply cannot...........*

*Guru Ji is COMPLETE, Guru Ji is God, Guru Ji is everywhere- one need to clear one's sight to recognize Guru Ji............*

*that's all for now........*


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## roopk (Jun 15, 2007)

good knowledge of gurbani but put to improper use.,


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## GuruPyaara (Jun 15, 2007)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Saadh Sangat Ji, *
> 
> *one another thought me neech like to share:*
> 
> ...


 
no doubts surinder ji. Guru te beitbaari means manmukhta.


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## kaur-1 (Jun 15, 2007)

Rook, you might not or might already know this. But try this link to help your understanding. 

Hukam - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


There's also been similar question and discussion carried out in this forum. Try the search facility for the various threads as there are several. Some where started in 2004.


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## Parma (Jun 15, 2007)

From me understanding the gurubarni. The concept of destiny we have limited to will (The same as thoughts) but gods will is not just thought like me and you!! Does not just exsist in thought out of thought and beyond from my understanding. If everything is done by gods will, then gods will is god. Meaning that god is apart of us all in the way of our destiny. You can do wright, You can do wrong. God is still with you. You cannot describe god. So you may do wrong. You may do wright. God still exsists in all exsists everywhere. In realising this we realise that god's will is destiny as no matter what you do god is still there, its his will. God is within you around you, countless. Even if I think on me, think on you, think on anything, god exsists in that. Like all things pure cannot become something, that, or nothing. No description. Guru nanak is sent to teach on how to worship god as this purity is so great. We worship god for the simple fact that god is great!! Guru nanak came to teach how great god is. How to keep our thoughts mind, body and soul. Must be pure. The destiny will always be there. Will it get better or worse, doesnt matter god is still their. It is a process of thought on god. You cannot change gods will he is in will's. By abidding to guru nanak's teachings, is to keep on light to act and perform in my life regardless for gods will, will always be there. Mukthi or not. That is within god, god is will. God cannot be parted from god's will. There is only one god. Not god and god's will not a difference. Through god you become one with destiny life eternity. Through god all is obtained. To act to get closer to the ultimate source Guru nanak gave the way. To get closer to self realization and after you realize yourself, You realize you was never really here or you was but never really seen! Are you the young child you were born or the old man you will become. What are you? Example; Bad or good, good men can do bad, bad men can do good. Whatever you do god is still there will of god. What are you, just a will of god. Act on the gurbarni to acheive realization of gods will. Which is stated in the gurbarni to be a sikh. To be PURE!! So do you have free will yes, as god is beyond that. He is the will, yet not just the will. Cannot be described by just your will. Like the world, we are apart of the world, yet me or you alone are not the world. Me or you alone are not the whole will of god. For gods will is god. We are Progression of will!! IF THIS IS WRONG PLEASE ADVISE ME>


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## Parma (Jun 17, 2007)

Anyone want to add??


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2007)

Parma

This topic is a very complicated issue. All religions and moral philosophy in both western and eastern traditions have grappled with it for thousands of years. My suspicion is that you will get some responses but people need time to think. A breezy response doesn't do the topic justice. Good of you to keep it going.

Perhaps I will say more once I think more carefully.

 For now consider this. When you assume there is a free will you must also assume that there is an independent person, a rational agent (a doer who acts according to choices before him). This means the "doer" is acting according to his/her personal understanding "self" or "personal identity". Without a personal construction of MY SELF there is no one to make choices or moral decisions.

So what happens when you say this? There no personal MY SELF. Self is a mental contruction (EGO). And furthermore, the personal construction of self inteferes with making a connection with the Divine.

Then what happens when you say this? On making a connection with the Divine, the personal construction of self ends because it is not real any longer. At this point, free will no longer makes sense.

Then ask this. When MYSELF ends because of MY connection with Waheguru, do I continue to be a moral being making moral choices? 

_(Folks I am not talking about the person of antoniaji. Please do not send me advice.)_

That gives you an idea of how complicated this topic is. Understanding free will is not a simple matter of choosing between karma and enlightenment, or between saying that all behavior is determined by God's will versus all behavior is freely chosen.

A working example from Guru Angad (on sikiwiki)

Sewa

Guru Angad believed in the service and well-being of all mankind and not just of his own followers. He laid stress on character building rather than observance of rituals and formalities. The path which Guru Angad pointed out to his Sikhs for achieving enlightenment was through service and good actions and devotion and worship of one God. He asked his followers to win Divine grace by prayer, singing His praises, cultivating humility, a spirit of service and submitting at all time to His will. Paying a fine under pressure, does not bring either merit or goodness. That alone is a good deed, O Nanak, which is done by one’s own free will. Sewa has to be done selflessly.

Eliminate your conceit and then perform service to humanity, Only then you will get honor - Guru Angad Dev


Not easy is it? Some personal choice is defnitely at work here. Some work by Waheguru is also at work here.

People will respond. It just takes some time.


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## Parma (Jun 26, 2007)

When all other avenues of thought fail. Common sense must prevail! Otherwise the world has no distinction, between sense and non-sense.


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## simpy (Jun 26, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*let us start with the mind-*

*Guru Ji says-*


AMg 415​ang 415​Page 415​​Awsw mhlw 1 ]​aasaa mehulaa 1 ​Aasaa, First Mehl:​​mnu mYglu swkqu dyvwnw ]​mun maigul saakuth dhaevaanaa​The mind of the faithless cynic is like a crazy elephant.​​bn KMif mwieAw moih hYrwnw ]​bun khundd maaeiaa mohi hairaanaa​It wanders around the forest, distracted by attachment to Maya.​​ieq auq jwih kwl ky cwpy ]​eith outh jaahi kaal kae chaapae​It goes here and there, hounded by death.​​gurmuiK Koij lhY Gru Awpy ]1]​gurumukh khoj lehai ghur aapae​The Gurmukh seeks, and finds his own home. ||1||​​ibnu gur sbdY mnu nhI Taurw ]​bin gur subudhai mun nehee thouraa​Without the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind finds no place of rest.​​ismrhu rwm nwmu Aiq inrmlu Avr iqAwghu haumY kaurw ]1] rhwau ]​simuruhu raam naam ath nirumul avur thiaaguhu houmai kouraa​Remember in meditation the Lord's Name, the most pure and sublime; renounce your bitter egotism. ||1||Pause||​​iehu mnu mugDu khhu ikau rhsI ]​eihu mun mugudh kehuhu kio rehusee​Tell me, how can this stupid mind be rescued?​​ibnu smJy jm kw duKu shsI ]​bin sumujhae jum kaa dhukh sehusee​Without understanding, it shall suffer the pains of death.​​Awpy bKsy siqguru mylY ]​aapae bukhusae sathigur maelai​The Lord Himself forgives us, and unites us with the True Guru.​​kwlu kMtku mwry scu pylY ]2]​kaal kunttuk maarae such paelai​The True Lord conquers and overcomes the tortures of death. ||2||​​iehu mnu krmw iehu mnu Drmw ]​eihu mun kurumaa eihu mun dhurumaa​This mind commits its deeds of karma, and this mind follows the Dharma.​​iehu mnu pMc qqu qy jnmw ]​eihu mun punch thuth thae junumaa​This mind is born of the five elements.​​swkqu loBI iehu mnu mUVw ]​saakuth lobhee eihu mun moorraa​This foolish mind is per-ver-ted and greedy.​​gurmuiK nwmu jpY mnu rUVw ]3]​gurumukh naam jupai mun roorraa​Chanting the Naam, the mind of the Gurmukh becomes beautiful. ||3||​​gurmuiK mnu AsQwny soeI ]​gurumukh mun asuthaanae soee​The mind of the Gurmukh finds the Lord's home.​​gurmuiK iqRBvix soJI hoeI ]​gurumukh thribhuvan sojhee hoee​The Gurmukh comes to know the three worlds.​​iehu mnu jogI BogI qpu qwpY ]​eihu mun jogee bhogee thup thaapai​This mind is a Yogi, an enjoyer, a practicer of austerities.​​gurmuiK cInY@ hir pRBu AwpY ]4]​gurumukh cheenai har prubh aapai​The Gurmukh understands the Lord God Himself. ||4||​​mnu bYrwgI haumY iqAwgI ]​mun bairaagee houmai thiaagee​This mind is a detached renunciate, forsaking egotism.​​Git Git mnsw duibDw lwgI ]​ghatt ghatt munusaa dhubidhaa laagee​Desire and duality afflict each and every heart.​​rwm rswiexu gurmuiK cwKY ]​raam rusaaein gurumukh chaakhai​The Gurmukh drinks in the Lord's sublime essence;​​dir Gir mhlI hir piq rwKY ]5]​dhar ghar mehulee har path raakhai​at His Door, in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, He preserves his honor. ||5||​​iehu mnu rwjw sUr sMgRwim ]​eihu mun raajaa soor sungraam ​This mind is the king, the hero of cosmic battles.​​iehu mnu inrBau gurmuiK nwim ]​eihu mun nirubho gurumukh naam ​The mind of the Gurmukh becomes fearless through the Naam.​​mwry pMc ApunY vis kIey ]​maarae punch apunai vas keeeae​Overpowering and subduing the five passions,​​haumY gRwis iekqu Qwie kIey ]6]​houmai graas eikuth thaae keeeae​holding ego in its grip, it confines them to one place. ||6||​​gurmuiK rwg suAwd An iqAwgy ]​gurumukh raag suaadh an thiaagae​The Gurmukh renounces other songs and tastes.​​gurmuiK iehu mnu BgqI jwgy ]​gurumukh eihu mun bhuguthee jaagae​The mind of the Gurmukh is awakened to devotion.​​Anhd suix mwinAw sbdu vIcwrI ]​anehudh sun maaniaa subudh veechaaree​Hearing the unstruck music of the sound current, this mind contemplates the Shabad, and accepts it.​​Awqmu cIin@ Bey inrMkwrI ]7]​aathum cheen ibheae nirunkaaree​Understanding itself, this soul becomes attuned to the Formless Lord. ||7||​​iehu mnu inrmlu dir Gir soeI ]​eihu mun nirumul dhar ghar soee​This mind becomes immaculately pure, in the Court and the Home of the Lord.​​gurmuiK Bgiq Bwau Duin hoeI ]​gurumukh bhugath bhaao dhun hoee​The Gurmukh shows his love through loving devotional worship.​​Aihinis hir jsu gur prswid ]​ahinis har jus gur purusaadh ​Night and day, by Guru's Grace, sing the Lord's Praises.​​Git Git so pRBu Awid jugwid ]8]​ghatt ghatt so prubh aadh jugaadh ​God dwells in each and every heart, since the very beginning of time, and throughout the ages. ||8||​​rwm rswieix iehu mnu mwqw ]​raam rusaaein eihu mun maathaa​This mind is intoxicated with the sublime essence of the Lord;​​srb rswiexu gurmuiK jwqw ]​surub rusaaein gurumukh jaathaa​The Gurmukh realizes the essence of totality.​​Bgiq hyqu gur crx invwsw ]​bhugath haeth gur churun nivaasaa​For the sake of devotional worship, he dwells at the Guru's Feet.​​nwnk hir jn ky dwsin dwsw ]9]8]​naanuk har jun kae dhaasan dhaasaa​Nanak is the humble servant of the slave of the Lord's slaves. ||9||8||
*will continue*​
*forgive me please*


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