# Tragic Earthquake In Japan. Is It Fate? Is It Karma? Is It Living With "the Truth/God That Is Everyw



## Ambarsaria (Mar 12, 2011)

It is *no question*,



a very heart breaking incident
deserving of everyone's support,
to help morally
talk to people who have been directly impacted and provide words and deeds of support that they are not alone
volunteer, write, talk and communicate supportivily
 
to help rebuild
to provide resources that one can spare to help the injured and impacted re-build and find ways to continue through difficulties
monetary
physically
resouces
 
 
to show oneness with the people in this tragic circumstance
to indicate it is not God's vengeance or a result of any bad deeds and not be crass
 
 
I *also* believe that with this tragic situation fresh in our senses perhaps it is worth reflecting on how your faith relates to such situations.

Me being a Sikh will submit the following most humbly with others to correct me for any wrong (I apologize ahead!) or add as appropriate,



> ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> 
> *ArQ:- *Akwl   purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB   ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY,   (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS   Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> God (the understanding of truth) everywhere   is one  and is known as the one truth, is the creator of all, present   everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided   by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own   (Guru/God) blessing.



Comments on relationship to the tragic Japan 2011 Earthquake:


It is the same truth/God that is functioning _in all as one_,
the people who passed away, the injured, the not injured and all of the non-physically injured (relatives of injured, spiritually, morally or other ways impacted by the event) whether they are in Japan or anywhere else
We are with them and they are with us
We are all one with everything around us and are part of it
 
The greater truth that prevails in the whole Universe _acts without fear__,_


The cruel as it may seem to us mortals, the greater truth that is the creator and purveyor of the Universe continues to proceed in creation and subsistence without fear and per the higher truth that in such times is very hard for us mortals to understand as it is,
 
Very painful
It is belief shaking
How can a fair God do such to innocent men, women, children and life!
 
However the fearless one being the creator of all that are impacted and of all many more that were not impacted, cannot be classified to be good or bad
 
 


The greater truth that prevails in the whole Universe _acts without animosity__,_
The one creator present in one and all is,


not vengeful
friend of one (who survived) and enemy of another (injured or who died)
did not kill/injure through animosity,
so called "bad"
so called "ones with bad Karma"
So called bad who may be classified by some (not per Sikhism) to have done "bad in previous incarnations" or curse
so called bad who did bad deeds and reaping fruit
 
 
 


The greater truth that prevails in the whole Universe _being timeless__,_
As part of the understanding that one may have Sikhism projects that the one truth _is not_,
completely describable
is beyond complete understanding
,and is, limitless.
 
Hence for us as in our alive stage as humans,
We may not fully understand,
Reasons for such (tragic) events
The timing of such (tragic) events
The relationship of such (tragic) events to the universe as one
As the transformation of one is for ever continuing in a timeless fashion
 
 
 
 
*Bottomline for Sikhism*:


Without regard to race, religion or creed,



Hard as it is, one has to accept
We all being one need to feel the pain of others
We all being one need to do what we can to help
 
In the above spirit I submit my humble prayers, as a minimum, as a Sikh.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## jhelmick (Mar 13, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

Very well put.  Reading your post, well, brought more tears.  We have been following the events in Japan very closely.  It's a tragic loss.  Thank you for your tribute to all involved in this tragedy.  I really could not have said it better than that.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 13, 2011)

To be clear on this issue and others one has to undeerstand the Sikh notion of Karma.

It's not about bad deeds or good deeds. We have to accept the laws of nature, and it is up to us to be able to help ourselves within the constraints of these laws and the "Ultimate Reality" "Onkar" gives us the ability to work within these contraints and help our selves within them.

This could have been worse if people had not been rescued, Buildings were not earthquake proofed etc, all abilities bestowed to us through "Onkar"


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## spnadmin (Mar 13, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

I believe I share the same bottom line with you. It is important to know about the suffering of the people of Japan, so that as Sikhs we are spurred to help  alleviate that suffering, however we are able to do so.

Thanks


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## Astroboy (Mar 13, 2011)

Natural catastrophes lead us to seek answers regarding Karma. So it is good to understand your roots which are spiritual in nature. The human body and the physical world is a temporary world. What doesn't change is our Soul which is seated within the physical body. The body is one day going to perish anyway, whether it is caused by natural disasters, road accidents, or diseases. We just have to understand that permanent nature of ourselves. In Gauri Sukhmani M.5 that's all we can say:-
The One Lord Himself destroys and also preserves (marai rakhai eko aap)
Nothing at all is in the hands of mortal beings (manukh kai kich nahi haath)


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## jasbirkaleka (Mar 13, 2011)

randip singh said:


> to be clear on this issue and others one has to undeerstand the sikh notion of karma.
> 
> It's not about bad deeds or good deeds. We have to accept the laws of nature, and it is up to us to be able to help ourselves within the constraints of these laws and the "ultimate reality" "onkar" gives us the ability to work within these contraints and help our selves within them.
> 
> This could have been worse if people had not been rescued, buildings were not earthquake proofed etc, all abilities bestowed to us through "onkar"



Why did "Onkar" not create a more perfect universe, devoid of all these earth-quacks and other such disasters?
The answer that "we cannot understand His leela" does not seem much convincing.
Can any one give a simple answer, without play of words,  that a common person can understand.


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## spnadmin (Mar 13, 2011)

namjap said:


> Natural catastrophes lead us to seek answers regarding Karma. So it is good to understand your roots which are spiritual in nature. The human body and the physical world is a temporary world. What doesn't change is our Soul which is seated within the physical body. The body is one day going to perish anyway, whether it is caused by natural disasters, road accidents, or diseases. We just have to understand that permanent nature of ourselves. In Gauri Sukhmani M.5 that's all we can say:-
> The One Lord Himself destroys and also preserves (marai rakhai eko aap)
> Nothing at all is in the hands of mortal beings (manukh kai kich nahi haath)



I agree with Randip ji who has said, 





> and it is up to us to be able to help ourselves within the constraints of these laws and the "Ultimate Reality" "Onkar" gives us the ability to work within these contraints and help our selves within them.



But I also think that today we see in stark terms what is in metaphor "the terrible world ocean." We are very small. We think we are much greater and more important than we are. We are part of the creation which is always being created, destroyed and re-created. I also agree with NamJap on this point "understand your roots which are spiritual in nature." That is what gives us the advantage of a permanent and indestructible consciousness, and provides deliverance from being victims, only victims, of natural forces. It is not to say that there will be no suffering. The mind suffers, the body suffers. Spirit does not have to suffer.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੈ ਕਾ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
Sathigur Bhai Kaa Bohithhaa Nadharee Paar Outhaar ||4||
The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4||


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 13, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> It's not about bad deeds or good deeds. We have to accept the laws of  nature, and it is up to us to be able to help ourselves within the  constraints of these laws and the "Ultimate Reality" "Onkar" gives us  the ability to work within these constraints and help our selves within  them.
> 
> This could have been worse if people had not been rescued, Buildings  were not earthquake proofed etc, all abilities bestowed to us through  "Onkar"


Randip Singh ji I thank you for an excellent point posted so  succinctly.  _As my normal self_, I want to add some comments probably not  as succinct but in terms of dialog.

   Whereas Sikhism teaches us about the single (oneness) truth/ocean (nature, God) that we reside in, there are no limits placed on our thinking or wherewithals to live healthier, more safely or more happily within it in consonance with everything in the Universe.  Can we perceive everything, Can we predict everything, Can we recognize everything, ….!  The answer probably is we cannot.  Are we getting better at it?  The answer probably is yes?  Are we getting better at it through understanding spirituality (say Sikhism) and Science (science is not a conflict for Sikhism)?  My answer would be, yes we are, on both counts.

Reasons why I believe like Randip Singh ji in the positive evolution of oneness (_consistent with Sikhism principles as Sikhism is not benign towards Science but supports us to use all the gifts we have towards betterment_),


Plagues used to kill millions, where are we now!
Cholera used to kill millions more, where are we now!
Infections used to kill millions, antibiotics and care where are we now!
Smallpox used to infect, disfigure and make people extremely sick, where are we now!
As Randip Singh ji stated specific to Earthquakes, such and  earth quake in old days on a cold night in an Indian village with  mud-houses (say the great earthquake in Quetta, Pakistan early last  century) would have killed nearly 100% of the villages, where are we  now!
 So is God/oneness/nature/"the truth" that Sikhism espouses going to give you a  perfect world on a platter, the answer is no.  But the same has given us  the wisdom to understand and work towards one.

Any comments!

Regards to all.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 13, 2011)

namjap said:


> Natural catastrophes lead us to seek answers regarding Karma. So it is good to understand your roots which are spiritual in nature. The human body and the physical world is a temporary world. What doesn't change is our Soul which is seated within the physical body. The body is one day going to perish anyway, whether it is caused by natural disasters, road accidents, or diseases. We just have to understand that permanent nature of ourselves. In Gauri Sukhmani M.5 that's all we can say:-
> The One Lord Himself destroys and also preserves (marai rakhai eko aap)
> Nothing at all is in the hands of mortal beings (manukh kai kich nahi haath)


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  Being true to myself and saying what I think, I find the following in your post as hocus-pocus as you write,

“We just have to understand that permanent nature of ourselves.”​ 
  Neither the physical nor the spiritual as one entity “me”, “you” is indestructible or permanent.  My understanding is that both are “transformational”.


*Physically*      we will merge back into the elements or “transform” back into where we      came from in a long series of transformations of many other animate and      in-animate elements
We       become dust and in-animates
Parts       of us become vegetation or part of such transformation
Parts       of us become part of different life forms
Including        be part of other human beings through the food chain
 
 
* Budha Hoya Sheikh Farid.....   *

YouTube        - Budha Hoya Sheikh Farid.....



*Spiritually      or Soul* (soul for me is understanding of being)  wise we,
We       leave our imprints in part on our children
We       leave imprints on relatives and neighbors “souls” and the related changes       therein
We       leave our impacts on other souls through our interactions be those       positive or negative
The       chances of an “identical soul” of “you”, “me”, “others” in like form are “nil”
But        then again why should it be a worry as we are all one and the oneness was        there before our birth and will be there
 
 
 
* Dekh Bande Ke Bhag | Read Bhagat Farid Bani with Bhai Harjinder Singh Srinagar Wale | Gurbani   *

YouTube        - Dekh Bande Ke Bhag | Read Bhagat Farid Bani with Bhai Harjinder Singh Srinagar Wale | Gurbani

Regards.

  Sat Sri Akal.


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## Astroboy (Mar 14, 2011)

namjap said:


> Natural catastrophes lead us to seek answers regarding Karma. So it is good to understand your roots which are spiritual in nature. The human body and the physical world is a temporary world. What doesn't change is our Soul which is seated within the physical body. The body is one day going to perish anyway, whether it is caused by natural disasters, road accidents, or diseases. We just have to understand that permanent nature of ourselves. In Gauri Sukhmani M.5 that's all we can say:-
> The One Lord Himself destroys and also preserves (marai rakhai eko aap)
> Nothing at all is in the hands of mortal beings (manukh kai kich nahi haath)




There are various levels that our permanent self Soul, experiences the lessons. Let me remind you, our Father in Heaven provided us with challenging conditions but none of these conditions are too difficult for Soul to go through. We are the children of our Divine Father, so only the father knows what is good for his children. The children may not know why they have to go through these lessons, only the Divine Father knows. 

 <table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਰਾਤੀ  ਰੁਤੀ  ਥਿਤੀ  ਵਾਰ  ॥ 
राती रुती थिती वार ॥ 
Rāṯī ruṯī thiṯī vār. 
Nights, days, weeks and seasons; 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪਵਣ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਅਗਨੀ  ਪਾਤਾਲ  ॥ 
पवण पाणी अगनी पाताल ॥ 
Pavaṇ pāṇī agnī pāṯāl. 
in the midst of gases, liquids, fiery energies and nether regions.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਧਰਤੀ  ਥਾਪਿ  ਰਖੀ  ਧਰਮ  ਸਾਲ  ॥ 
तिसु विचि धरती थापि रखी धरम साल ॥ 
Ŧis vicẖ ḏẖarṯī thāp rakẖī ḏẖaram sāl. 
in the midst of these, He established the earth as a home for Dharma. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਜੀਅ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ਕੇ  ਰੰਗ  ॥ 
तिसु विचि जीअ जुगति के रंग ॥ 
Ŧis vicẖ jī▫a jugaṯ ke rang. 
Upon it, He placed the various species of beings. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਨ  ਕੇ  ਨਾਮ  ਅਨੇਕ  ਅਨੰਤ  ॥ 
तिन के नाम अनेक अनंत ॥ 
Ŧin ke nām anek ananṯ. 
Their names are uncounted and endless. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਰਮੀ  ਕਰਮੀ  ਹੋਇ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
करमी करमी होइ वीचारु ॥ 
Karmī karmī ho▫e vīcẖār. 
By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਚਾ  ਆਪਿ  ਸਚਾ  ਦਰਬਾਰੁ  ॥ 
सचा आपि सचा दरबारु ॥ 
Sacẖā āp sacẖā ḏarbār. 
God Himself is True, and True is His Court. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਸੋਹਨਿ  ਪੰਚ  ਪਰਵਾਣੁ  ॥ 
तिथै सोहनि पंच परवाणु ॥ 
Ŧithai sohan pancẖ parvāṇ. 
There, in perfect grace and ease, sit the self-elect, the self-realized Saints. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਦਰੀ  ਕਰਮਿ  ਪਵੈ  ਨੀਸਾਣੁ  ॥ 
नदरी करमि पवै नीसाणु ॥ 
Naḏrī karam pavai nīsāṇ. 
They receive the Mark of Grace from the Merciful Lord. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਚ  ਪਕਾਈ  ਓਥੈ  ਪਾਇ  ॥ 
कच पकाई ओथै पाइ ॥ 
Kacẖ pakā▫ī othai pā▫e. 
The ripe and the unripe, shall there be judged. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਗਇਆ  ਜਾਪੈ  ਜਾਇ  ॥੩੪॥ 
नानक गइआ जापै जाइ ॥३४॥ 
Nānak ga▫i▫ā jāpai jā▫e. ||34|| 
O Nanak, when you go home, you will see this. ||34|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td>  
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 14, 2011)

Some people take this Karma thing too far...I was just now reading about a NYPD Cop who died of a broken neck when a 28 times repeat offender of domestic violence pushed him over a railing while protecting the abused wife...some one said..oh COPS..they do all sorts of Bad karma..like giving out summons, traffic violations, parking fines and all...this accumalted bad karma then takes its toll !!! In other words this writer beleives a COP shoudl just stand by and do nothing so he accumaltes GOOD KARMA..and that will protect him form such a death..what a load of bull...No wonder every other comment beat the living bullsh.it out of that bad karma in everything guy...


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## Randip Singh (Mar 14, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Why did "Onkar" not create a more perfect universe, devoid of all these earth-quacks and other such disasters?
> The answer that "we cannot understand His leela" does not seem much convincing.
> Can any one give a simple answer, without play of words, that a common person can understand.


 
May it IS perfect? Just that WE are not, but we have the potential to be perfect i.e. move from the Munmukh stage to the Gurmukh stage.

If we were perfect we would have had the ability to save all those people?

Just a thought.


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## jasbirkaleka (Mar 14, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> May it IS perfect? Just that WE are not, but we have the potential to be perfect i.e. move from the Munmukh stage to the Gurmukh stage.
> 
> If we were perfect we would have had the ability to save all those people?
> 
> Just a thought.


 
Randip Singh Ji,
 The question still stands---Why all these imperfections, in us and in the universe around us, when the Almighty have easily done much better.yellingmunda


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 14, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Randip Singh Ji,
> The question still stands---Why all these imperfections, in us and in the universe around us, when the Almighty have easily done much better.yellingmunda


Jasbirkaleka ji thanks for your post.

As Sikhism states that we are part of the "Oneness" that prevails in the Universe, we need to take a step back.  Sometimes it is worthwhile to take a slightly Hoillistic or "Whole" view.  In this context let us review,



People believing or not believing in God and Science (Sikhism believes in Science) will Hypothesize and along the way confirm,
The Island of Japan did not exist as a habitable place way back millions of years ago
Nature created it through the enormous force and upheaval the Island of Japan
At the start there was no Human Life on the Island of Japan
Human Life arrived when it became Inhabitable, thousands and thousands years ago
One couple living on the Island of Japan and many more additional started to inhabit Japan
At all times people will look around before they start a home to live, so did the Japanese
Do we as mortals take risks with the wisdom that we have, of course we do
Is God supposed to _slap you silly right away_ at every mistake you make knowing one's eventual mortality, most likely not
But a finite probability of potential consequences gets established with parameters like time and environs, etc.
 
If there is big enough mistake and it is not remedied the probability that existed at the beginning will start to take the shape of a likelihood and we end up with events good or bad in consonance with everything that surounds us or we are part of
So let us move on to the next point
 
 
 
Sikhism states that the vastness of "the truth that prevails as one for all cannot be fully quantified or described"
Looking for Scientific full description is a sexy mirage in Atheism to prove non existance of beliefs in God or its descriptives
even as forgiving and unconstrained Sikhism is no one can satisfy through description, an Atheist, who wants the full story when Sikhism states that we are limited and cannot comprehend and or describe with completeness (the full understanding of God/one truth that prevails everywhere)
 
So God (at least as described in Sikhism) does not become bad when there is an earthquake
In the formation of Japan (creation) just imagine the volcanoes, the earthquakes, fires and rains over time and  over many a millions of years, and so on before it became habitable
Then the human Life started to take hold on the Island of Japan
Human life started to live in consonance and it grew to present as many million folds from start of one or two
 
 




I assume that we all agree that it is a good thing to see Human life existing in Japan!
 
 
So why these horrible incidents like the present quake of 2011
Everthing is continuously transforming
Be it inanimate or animate or plant life
 
Do we alwyas fully understand this transformation all the time
No
Humans can't even adequately forecast weather!
Example: Possibly sunny with or without cloudy periods and a probability of showers or rain
This comes from people of Atheism or God or deities, basically from all in this oneness that binds us all
 
 
 
If we don't fully understand the transformations, are there possible impacts in how we live or on our life
Of course there is
Sometimes we feel good as a result (good side of the seesaw) and sometimes we feel bad (the bad side of the seesaw)

But that isn't Heaven/Hell or Angel-God/Devil
It is just natural transformation that we did not fully comprehend and are now surprised!
 
 
 
So what to do!
Recognize
At least from Sikhism perspective, such tragic events are part of oneness that is always transforming



> What is perhaps most surprising about the Japan  earthquake is how misleading history can be. In the past 300 years, no  earthquake nearly that large — nothing larger than magnitude-eight — had  struck in the Japan subduction zone. _That, in turn, led to assumptions  about how large a tsunami might strike the coast._ http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/scitech/34860-quake-moves-japan-closer-u-s.html



Challenge
Become better at understanding and improve your understanding of oneness and what transforms around you
 
Actions
Re-affirm the oneness with all and everything
Recognize the grandness that abounds and how we fit in small ways in it or live in consonance with it
There are hurt souls, injured bodies and bereavement for the dead,
Re-affirm your oneness with all
Provide what you can to ease the pain
 
Learn something for your own self
 
 
Sorry it is a little long.

I wanted Randip Singh ji to respond first before I did.peacesign

Sat Sri Akal. 

*PS:*  A peaceful video with Shabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  This always helps me remove some agitation in the mind, hope it is enjoyed by others and thus sharing

* Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla*

YouTube        - Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 14, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Randip Singh Ji,
> The question still stands---Why all these imperfections, in us and in the universe around us, when the Almighty have easily done much better.



No the question does not stand. 

Why do you blame Onkar when the fault is within? He's given us the tools, its up to us to use them.

As I have said the Earth is perfect infact scientists say it is a finely balanced machine, as is the Universe. Also the human has the potential to be perfect.

So in the case of the Earth it IS perfect. 

Techtonic plates shift, and lava flows to form more land masses. too much land mass + too little water = unbalanced ecosystem.

We as humans must strive to be perfect so that we can live perfectly in this system.


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## spnadmin (Mar 14, 2011)

This answer can only be discovered within. It is not something to preach to victims of disaster and misfortune. It is not something that can be imposed as the truth on victims of a catastrophe. Some in Japan may  already see this. Then others may not. Their grief and their days of desperation should be honored and they should be cared for, because He honors and cares. The message is heard one person at a time. It is not about fate, luck, karma, or a wicked god. 


ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
Salok Ma 1 ||
Shalok, First Mehl:ll

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥
Visamaadh Naadh Visamaadh Vaedh ||
Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਜੀਅ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਭੇਦ ॥
Visamaadh Jeea Visamaadh Bhaedh ||
Wonderful are the beings, wonderful are the species.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਰੂਪ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਰੰਗ ॥
Visamaadh Roop Visamaadh Rang ||
Wonderful are the forms, wonderful are the colors.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਗੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜੰਤ ॥
Visamaadh Naagae Firehi Janth ||
Wonderful are the beings who wander around naked.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਪਉਣੁ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਪਾਣੀ ॥
Visamaadh Poun Visamaadh Paanee ||
Wonderful is the wind, wonderful is the water.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਅਗਨੀ ਖੇਡਹਿ ਵਿਡਾਣੀ ॥
Visamaadh Aganee Khaeddehi Viddaanee ||
Wonderful is fire, which works wonders.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਖਾਣੀ ॥
Visamaadh Dhharathee Visamaadh Khaanee 
Wonderful is the earth, wonderful the sources of creation.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਸਾਦਿ ਲਗਹਿ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥
Visamaadh Saadh Lagehi Paraanee ||
Wonderful are the tastes to which mortals are attached.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ॥
Visamaadh Sanjog Visamaadh Vijog ||
Wonderful is union, and wonderful is separation.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਭੁਖ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਭੋਗੁ ॥
Visamaadh Bhukh Visamaadh Bhog ||
Wonderful is hunger, wonderful is satisfaction.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
Visamaadh Sifath Visamaadh Saalaah ||
Wonderful is His Praise, wonderful is His adoration.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਉਝੜ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਰਾਹ ॥
Visamaadh Oujharr Visamaadh Raah ||
Wonderful is the wilderness, wonderful is the path.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
Visamaadh Naerrai Visamaadh Dhoor ||
Wonderful is closeness, wonderful is distance.

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਹਾਜਰਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥
Visamaadh Dhaekhai Haajaraa Hajoor ||
How wonderful to behold the Lord, ever-present here.

ਵੇਖਿ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ॥
Vaekh Viddaan Rehiaa Visamaadh ||
Beholding His wonders, I am wonder-struck

ਨਾਨਕ ਬੁਝਣੁ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ॥੧॥
Naanak Bujhan Poorai Bhaag ||1||
O Nanak, those who understand this are blessed with perfect destiny. ||1||


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 14, 2011)

spnadmin ji thanks.  

I have thoughts on a separate thread(s) without Japan 2011 reference.  I believe there are few things that have come out in the discussion here to spawn other secondary philosophical discourse.  Some ideas below,

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> If God/Nature/Ultimate One truth that Exists Everywhere is Perfect:  Why people die of Heart Attacks!
> 
> Does Soul survive Birth and Death!  *OR* It Just Transforms from Many-to-One and One-to-Many!
> 
> ...



I was wondering also if yourself or Aman Singh ji can start a Sikh Cyber Prayer (SCP @ SPN) for "Japan 2011" which we can sign on to and show our participation here at SPN and allow also for guests to do so from around the globe?

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 14, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

I will copy your ideas over to the forum Mentors section where mods and mentors can discuss this. The second idea, Sikh Cyber Prayer SCP at SPN,  needs a closer look -- not because of any personal concerns on my part. Only because there are contrary sentiments in the panth about Sikhi and prayer: what should we pray for, how should we pray, should we ask Akaal for anything in prayer, and whether prayer is substantially different from being consciousness of Naam with every breath and every action. It can get complicated.

The worst thing would be to have a bitter debate on a thread intended for supplication and support. I don't want to start this until we are clear about this issue. The other two themes should pose no problem.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 14, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Ambarsaria ji
> 
> I will copy your ideas over to the forum Mentors section where mods and mentors can discuss this. The second idea, Sikh Cyber Prayer SCP at SPN,  needs a closer look -- not because of any personal concerns on my part. Only because there are contrary sentiments in the panth about Sikhi and prayer: what should we pray for, how should we pray, should we ask Akaal for anything in prayer, and whether prayer is substantially different from being consciousness of Naam with every breath and every action. It can get complicated.
> 
> The worst thing would be to have a bitter debate on a thread intended for supplication and support. I don't want to start this until we are clear about this issue. The other two themes should pose no problem.


Sorry I forgot about the controversies and the nature of praying.  I agree it might become disruptive.  I also usually pray silently when I bow my head in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and it is usually a dialog with my own inner self.

Maybe a suggestions on people to post Shabad, Sufi, or other like Videos as a videos only thread that kind of becomes a positive exercise without disruptive comments.  I can start a thread her in Interfaith.

Again I am a little simple and straight in some ideas but I know not all is not a straight line in dialog or discourse and many times it weaves like a river.

Thanks.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 14, 2011)

Yes. ah Yes....we must be prepared for a diverse response. Leaders/mentors will chat and then we will know. Thanks, and do go ahead with the thread of inspirational video.


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## jhelmick (Mar 14, 2011)

We are nothing against the forces of Nature.  With just one fell swoop, humanity can be gone.  No matter how much we try to "safeguard" ourselves from catastrophes, there's always that one quake, tsunami, volcano, or cyclone that will destroy us and everything we know.  

I don't believe this has anything to do with karma, but simply the natural progression of things.  Earth is alive, and sometimes she is violent and destroys.  Who are we to think we could even begin to tame or outwit her?


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## Seeker9 (Mar 14, 2011)

> Spiritually or Soul (soul for me is understanding of being) wise we,
> We leave our imprints in part on our children
> We leave imprints on relatives and neighbors “souls” and the related changes therein
> We leave our impacts on other souls through our interactions be those positive or negative
> ...



Interesting thread and comments

Dear Ambarsaria Ji

This is a fairly unique viewpoint I think and one that merits further discussion

What do you think happens to the soul at death? i.e does it leave imprints and disappear? does it merge with an original source e.g you could say as in a sort of life energy merging with a bigger mass of energy?

What would you say is the purpose of meditation?

Thanks in advance

R


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## findingmyway (Mar 17, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Why did "Onkar" not create a more perfect universe, devoid of all these earth-quacks and other such disasters?
> The answer that "we cannot understand His leela" does not seem much convincing.
> Can any one give a simple answer, without play of words,  that a common person can understand.



Without the "bad" there can be no "good". Volcanic eruptions are essential to create several substances we use for survival on earth. Human beings are very bad for the planet with the way we use its resources and takeover killing a lot of things in our way. When there is complete peace humans become restless and nasty towards each other out of boredom. How do you describe perfect? How do you judge good and bad? Looking only from a human telescope will give you a very skewed and small field of view.


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## jasbirkaleka (Mar 18, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Without the "bad" there can be no "good". Volcanic eruptions are essential to create several substances we use for survival on earth. Human beings are very bad for the planet with the way we use its resources and takeover killing a lot of things in our way. When there is complete peace humans become restless and nasty towards each other out of boredom. How do you describe perfect? How do you judge good and bad? Looking only from a human telescope will give you a very skewed and small field of view.



Exactly the kind of response I was expecting.
So God plans these volcanic eruptions from time to time,killing millions of human-beings, so we could use the minerals that come out with the lava,to better the living conditions of man-kind.
I must admit that this truly is a  novel scheme and the best arrangement that only the Almighty could come-up, with to create a perfect world for us. 
But,on the other hand, as you have written, Human-beings are very bad for this planet,so if thousands perish in one stroke, it is good riddance.
This post has really helped me broaden my skewed and small field of view.
Please keep-up the good work. lolswordfight:whatzpointsing::::badmood:


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 18, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Exactly the kind of response I was expecting.
> So God plans these volcanic eruptions from time to time,killing millions of human-beings, so we could use the minerals that come out with the lava,to better the living conditions of man-kind.
> I must admit that this truly is a  novel scheme and the best arrangement that only the Almighty could come-up, with to create a perfect world for us.
> But,on the other hand, as you have written, Human-beings are very bad for this planet,so if thousands perish in one stroke, it is good riddance.
> ...



jasbirkaleka ji, you set up a trap and some one walked right in.  That line about "God creating bad to teach value of Good" is a much abused concept used by many religions and preachers to rope in the meek, keep them on the defensive and rule them.  

Hinduism has this as foremost at the core, with Brahmins coming in to fleece/control/manipulate and provide so called avoidance of possible bad or abundance of good fortune as intermediaries to God of your choosing.

However _"you should not throw baby out with the bath water"_.  Consider that if the planners and scientists whether believing in God, Buddhism, Sikhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism or nothing at all  had considered the following in inhabiting and developing that area,



No inhabitation or structure withing first 3 miles of the shore line
Nuclear stations to be located at least 3 miles inside of the shoreline
It would have meant more development expenses
At lakes, rivers and oceans are locations of choice for ready supply of cooling water but one has to recognize all that is reasonably predictable and perhaps spend more
 
Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20
Humans and other life always have to use wisdom (that continuously improves and evolves) and live in consonance of the one truth that surrounds us (Sikhism) as one we are part of,



> ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> 
> *ArQ:- *Akwl    purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB    ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry  hY,   (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw  pRkwS   Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> God  (the understanding of truth) everywhere   is one  and is known as the  one truth, is the creator of all, present   everywhere, without fear,  without animosity, is timeless, is not guided   by life cycles, is a  self creation and is realized through its own   (Guru/God) blessing.


An excerpt from the above,


ਨਿਰਭਉ 

Truth prevails without fear 

_i.e. it may appear ruthless, unfair to the subjects_
_Example:  Musings,
_
_How could a loving God do this?_
_How could a God who can create perfect world allow this to happen_
_say Perfect world as defined by Jasbirkaleka ji_
_God need to listen uplol
_
 
 
 
 
 
ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ
Truth prevails without animosity
_Why does'nt God/the one creator get rid of all the bad people everywhere instead of these or other innocent people_
_The truth is "in consonance" and its violation is fraught with issues near time or far time
_
 
 
*The Solution:* 


The one creator has given us wherewithals to _live in consonance_ with everything around, above-below, near-far and chaging in time.
We need to understand and act accordingly.
 
What surrounds us is limitless so there will be errors in understanding with possible consequences and turmoil.  

These are our errors and not assignable to a God, creator or the understanding of the same thereof
This should only help further understand and make fewer errors for the future.
 
Examples of Listening and Learning:
Earthquake, Huricane proof or mitigated designs
Without these improvements such tragedies would be megafold.
 
 
Examples of Future issues and hot spots:
California earthquake forecast
Low lying areas near oceans and the inhabitation of the same
Building houses in the valleys where forests have been destroyed through deforestation
Building vast water dams with population downstream
Bhakhra dam in Punjab, the three Gorges project in China, etc.
 
 
 
None of the above takes away from compassion for all and sharing/supporting others during hardships.  Any one can or many can make errors of judgment but they are no less our brothers or sisters because of it and they are no less loved by God for it.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

This is not the meaning that I would myself take from what findinmyway posted. 



> So God plans these volcanic eruptions from time to time,killing millions of human-beings, so we could use the minerals that come out with the lava,to better the living conditions of man-kind.



She is not casting the almighty to be the prime mischief maker who has nothing better to do than scheme and dream up violent disruptions in the lives of millions of beings in order to rejuvenate the status of minerals on planet earth.

We need to try again. The question of "free will" in relation to Kartar Purakh(u) cannot be avoided in this discussion.


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## findingmyway (Mar 18, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Exactly the kind of response I was expecting.
> So God plans these volcanic eruptions from time to time,killing millions of human-beings, so we could use the minerals that come out with the lava,to better the living conditions of man-kind.
> I must admit that this truly is a  novel scheme and the best arrangement that only the Almighty could come-up, with to create a perfect world for us.
> But,on the other hand, as you have written, Human-beings are very bad for this planet,so if thousands perish in one stroke, it is good riddance.
> This post has really helped me broaden my skewed and small field of view.



I did not say bad was created to teach about good. I said without bad we do not know how to define good. Huge difference!! I also find the notion that the Almighty created this world to be perfect for us to be hilarious and extremely egotistical!! Perfect example of what I was referring to! Finally, God as per Sikhi is not a person who sits up there and watches the drama unfold! I think there is some confusion with Abrahamic faiths here.


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## jasbirkaleka (Mar 19, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> I did not say bad was created to teach about good. I said without bad we do not know how to define good. Huge difference!! I also find the notion that the Almighty created this world to be perfect for us to be hilarious and extremely egotistical!! Perfect example of what I was referring to! Finally, God as per Sikhi is not a person who sits up there and watches the drama unfold! I think there is some confusion with Abrahamic faiths here.



Please could some-one enlighten me.

 Is it impossible for us to follow the principles and values, as propagated to us by our great Sikh Gurus, without a firm belief in God?

Is it possible for an Atheist be a good Sikh?


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 19, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Please could some-one enlighten me.
> 
> Is it impossible for us to follow the principles and values, as propagated to us by our great Sikh Gurus, without a firm belief in God?
> 
> Is it possible for an Atheist be a good Sikh?


jasbirkaleka ji, I believe you already are a good Sikh compared to many others for me at the interaction and understanding level.  As you can see lot of the mis-beliefs and challenge such intelligently in terms of Sikhism.  This has to come from knowledge, study and experience.

In terms of God, as long as you have the understanding of oneness of the universe and can believe in the expositions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and don't believe in contradicting Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, you are a good Sikh for me.  Recognizing that understanding and study comes from questioning other people's understandings while sharing your own with an end objective of having better understanding, and not a win-lose strategy.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji dictates that one is not going to define in detail God or "oneness truth" but even then one has to live in consonance recognizing presence of all such internally and externally.

In terms of baptization and Panthic Life, I believe the world is pretty straightforward and there is not much confusion.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 19, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Please could some-one enlighten me.
> 
> Is it impossible for us to follow the principles and values, as propagated to us by our great Sikh Gurus, without a firm belief in God?
> 
> Is it possible for an Atheist be a good Sikh?



Until further notice:

*Sikh Reht Maryada*

SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS

        Section One

                                                         CHAPTER 1
    The Definition of Sikh :​
       Article I
    Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
    ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
    iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
    iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
     v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh​
A problem arises from the following chain of arguments. First one asserts that "One Immortal Being" is timeless and formless,  and therefore has no material reality. From that first premise one continues that  [God] or [One Immortal Being] per SRM, lacks material reality and therefore does not exist."  The conclusion is then drawn:  Therefore Sikhs can be atheists, or some similar conclusion. The problem with the conclusion lies in the fallacy of argument by abduction, which occurs twice in the above syllogism. So it is really important to define "One Immortal Being" in the context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and its teachings before asking whether atheists can be Sikhs, or Sikhs can be atheists.


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## findingmyway (Mar 19, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Please could some-one enlighten me.
> 
> Is it impossible for us to follow the principles and values, as propagated to us by our great Sikh Gurus, without a firm belief in God?
> 
> Is it possible for an Atheist be a good Sikh?



Atheism and Sikhism are worlds apart. Sikhism revolves around the realisation of God. Just because our concept of God is not the same as other faiths does not make it any less a concept of God. Just because we do not believe in a personal God, what we believe is no less God! Some people will argue that we shouldn't use the word God as it is a word from another language with a whole heap of different connotations but it doesn't matter what terminology you use, the ideas don't change. The Guru's took common phrases and concepts and completely turned them on their head by giving them new meaning. Even if you look at words we use in everyday language, the meaning can drastically change over time but the original ideas behind those words remain valid.

In summary; atheists refuse to believe in God whereas Sikhsim is all about belief in God albeit in a vastly different way to other faiths. No room for confusion! :whatzpointkudi::whatzpointsing:


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## jasbirkaleka (Mar 20, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Atheism and Sikhism are worlds apart. Sikhism revolves around the realisation of God. Just because our concept of God is not the same as other faiths does not make it any less a concept of God. Just because we do not believe in a personal God, what we believe is no less God! Some people will argue that we shouldn't use the word God as it is a word from another language with a whole heap of different connotations but it doesn't matter what terminology you use, the ideas don't change. The Guru's took common phrases and concepts and completely turned them on their head by giving them new meaning. Even if you look at words we use in everyday language, the meaning can drastically change over time but the original ideas behind those words remain valid.
> 
> In summary; atheists refuse to believe in God whereas Sikhsim is all about belief in God albeit in a vastly different way to other faiths. No room for confusion! :whatzpointkudi::whatzpointsing:



rangesingh: I am but a lay man as far as religious studies and theology is concerned.

But, at the risk of sounding egoistic, I believe I am a better Sikh than most of the Sikhs I see around me,who have almost  turned into idol-worshipers and are steaped in superstitions.

I try to follow, to the best of my ability, the essential teachings of Guru Nanak Dev ji,such as__

Truthfulliving,contentment,compassion,righteousness,charity,tolerance, restrain, forgiveness.humility,love,krit and not the least, gyan.

I must admit I have yet to learn much more,but isn"t it what Sikhi is all about, a continuance process of learning.

I know there are lots of short-comings in me and have a long way to go.

But the point I want to stress is that my not believing in a Super-Being has never hampered my humble attempts in being a true Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev ji.:singhsippingcoffee:
Bhul Chuk Muaf


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## findingmyway (Mar 20, 2011)

I don't believe in a super BEING either but I do believe in a GREATER FORCE!


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## Seeker9 (Mar 20, 2011)

I have some deep thoughts that I may not articulate very well so bear with me please

At the sub-atomic level the Universe is energy...anything we can see is just a different construct of energy

If Onkar is the Universe and you have Sargun and Nirgun etc then Onkar is energy and is manifest in everything we can see about us

Souls could even be described as bits of that energy that have broken off an "Original source" and the purpose of life is to merge that energy back again

We know there are natural processes that happen just as a result of how different bits of this energy interact with other bits. For example, a volcano blows because that's what volcanos have been doing since they first existed and long before man appeared on the scene

Natural Geological processes govern earthquakes. There is no pre-meditated plan along the lines of "today I'm going to initiate a 6.9 Richter level earthquake in Japan to kill a lot of people"...it just happens

The question of why God allows suffering would then not apply as it is just a consequence of our existence on this planet that we are all subject to how this planet works and what it does.....

Not sure if that made any sense....ikonkaar


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 20, 2011)

Seeker9 ji it makes all sense.

Only thing one needs to add is as Randip Singh ji said and I believe I may have too,



As part of God's or creator's gift of life is an embodiment to learn and use as much of our faculties to understand how to live amicably with what is above/below and all around.
The greater our learning of the creation and how we fit wherever we are, the lesser is likelihood being in conflict, misery or misfortune
But again what is around being infinite, we will never fully understand and free of all unknowns
Also if nature could translate its actions and attributes into plain English I am sure it will give us an earfulmundahug
 
Sat Sri Akal.


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