# Most Influential Man In History



## muslim (Jan 11, 2005)

yea um heres the link cos that didnt come out very well

Religion of History's 100 Most Influential People



.


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## Neutral Singh (Jan 11, 2005)

> Sikhism and the Bahai Faith (the youngest of the "classical world religions") have founders, but Hart did not include them on his list.



Interesting !! wonder why ?


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## Singhstah (Jan 11, 2005)

> RankNameReligious AffiliationInfluence1MuhammadIslamProphet of Islam; conqueror of Arabia; Hart recognized that ranking Muhammad first might be controversial, but felt that, from a secular historian's perspective, this was the correct choice because Muhammad is the only man to have been both a founder of a major world religion and a major military/political leader.



The above goes to show he hasnt done much reasearch on sikhi, mohammad sahib wasnt the only one to be a founder of a major religion and a major milatry/political leader.  Guroo Gobind Singh Ji Mahraj started khalsa and was a great warrior,religious poet,political and military leader,scholar of languages, the list goes on...


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## singhaj (Jan 11, 2005)

Another Excerpt from Harts book: (that muslim forgot to mention)

 This list is compiled only for fun and reference. Certainly no theological or sociological inferences should be drawn from a subjectively chosen list of only 100 people from throughout human history.......


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## drkhalsa (Jan 11, 2005)

Dear Singhstah 

I Would like to say that the writer of the book listed influential people and didnt take into account what influences these people left . About whether he was aware of SIKHISM or not he only knows better 
About Comparing two personalities offcourse there were lot of differences

here is some information about guruji  qualities and it is well agreed that no man before him has ever possesed so much excellences in personalities .


And the thing to note is that his praiser are not only hindu but muslim and christian also    


Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Guru of the Sikhs, declared that he was the 'Slave of the Supreme Being,' come into this world to witness the great and wonderful drama*. But when we look at his achievements, we are left in no doubt that he had qualities which are rarely to be found in one person. As a man he was a perfect human being who led a fancily life and behaved as an ideal husband, a loving father, a faithful son and an exemplary leader. He was a great nationalist who sacrificed his father, sons, friends, wealth and social status, comforts and home life for the sake of creating political awareness among his countrymen. In his religious philosophy and practice, he was every inch an internationalist. * His was the faith of tolerance, equality, liberty and fraternity of mankind. Had he wished, he could have lived a life of peace, comfort and honour and he could have carved out a kingdom for himself and his sons. 
*He was a perfect saint * Who could ask his armies to halt even when being pursued and to stop for the evening prayers to be said on time. Throughout his life he neither resorted to lies nor did he encourage his followers to do so although he could have succeeded easily by using deceit. Even Muslims testify to the fact that he and his Sikhs never molested any woman. In a battle, a Muslim Officer's young wife fell into the hands of the Sikhs and it is on record that she was escorted home unmolested. So long as she remained in the Sikh Camp, she was treated as a sister. 
"Like Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh attached the utmost importance to purity of life; but on a level with it he placed brave deeds and devotion to the Sikh cause. There was no higher duty for a Sikh than to die fighting in defence of his faith." 
(C. H. Payne pages 34-35)
Although rendered friendless and helpless he never lost courage. In the jungles of Machhiwara, barefoot and hungry, he remained firm and sang a merry song: 
"O give Him this news of me, 
Without You O Lord, the luxury of soft beds is full of pain and discomfort, 
Pleasures of palaces are like living among snakes, 
The thorns that prick my feet are now my flask for drink. 
The dagger that is pursuing me is my cup, O Lord. 
Without Thy grace O Lord, comforts are nothing but a butcher's knife. 
The bed on the ground is heaven to me, Lord, if Thou art with me, 
Burnt be the rich dwellings. they are hell to me if I forget Thee."
He had declared openly: 
"I will make the sparrow hunt and kill the falcon, 
I will make one Sikh fight a legion. 
Then and only then I can justify my name, Gobind Singh."

"The Guru really succeeded in turning the very dregs of society into the sturdiest soldiers." 
G. C. Narang in his book, Transformation of Sikhism (page 84) writes: 
"Men who had never touched a sword or shouldered a gun became heroes. Confectioners and washermen and barbers became leaders of armies before whom the Rajas quailed and the Nawabs cowered with terror."
He was an apostle of human unity and universal brotherhood. He loved all, rich and poor, Hindus and Muslims, princes and paupers. Learned men of all creeds Who feared Aurangzeb, found asylum in his sanctuary. He declared that love was the surest way to God. 
"I tell you the truth, hear ye all, 
Only those who love God's creation will find Him."
He was an excellent poet and scholar and he appreciated the fine arts. *He could write poetry in Punjabi, Hindi, Persian and Sanskrit and he was conversant with Arabic. His poetry is without parallel in all the languages in which he wrote. * Although most of his literary work was washed away by Sarsa river, we still have quite a large amount of it in the 'Dasam Granth.' About the Guru's literary work, S. M. Latif writes as follows: 
"It raised the dormant energies of the Sikhs, who, at that time, were a vanquished race, and urged upon them the necessity of leading an active and useful life. The author infuses into it his fervour and spirit, kindling the mind of the reader with lofty ideas of social freedom, and inflaming them to deeds of valour ... his description of the heroic deeds of warlike men lays before the reader a vivid and sprightly picture of the fields of battle in ages gone by, and it animates him with ideas of morality, glory, national honour and ascendancy."
The Guru had so much love for literary work that he kept 52 fine poets in his court and held poetic symposiums and literary competitions on important days. 
[B]He was a marvellous arched.  [/B] [ ]It is said that once when his enemies were playing a game of chess the Guru shot an arrow which struck into one of the legs of the bedstead on which they sat. They began to wonder at the skill of the Guru who had shot from about a mile away. Just then another arrow came and struck the other leg of the bedstead. This one brought a piece of paper on which was written, "I do not believe in miracles. I believe in skill and this is what I teach my followers." 
As a prophet, the Guru is unique. His teachings are very scientific and most suitable for all times. Unlike many other prophets he never called himself God or 'the only son of God.' Instead he called all people the sons of God sharing His Kingdom equally. For himself he used the word 'Slave' or servant of God. 
"Those who call me God, will fall into the deep pit of hell. 
Regard me as one of his slaves and have no doubt whatever about it. 
I am a servant of the Supreme Being; 
and have come to behold the wonderful drama of life."
*He was the most excellent social reformer. * He tried to abolish all distinctions of caste, race, creed, sex or social status and instead he fused all the people into one brotherhood. The Khalsa. He was never afraid when attacking hypocrisy. He declared: 
"What the Lord of the universe bade me say, that I will surely utter; 
And will not remain silent through fear of mortals." 
(Bachittar Natak - The Wonderful Drama)
[COLOR=[B]DarkRed]He was a great statesman and his statesmanship [/B] [/COLOR] was basest on truth and morality. Never in his life did he resort to deceit, treachery or falsehood. He was alert and always well informed of the enemies' moves. He knew the art of making fortifications. The forts of Anandpur and Paunta speak volumes for his ability and foresight in the war. When people showed grief at the loss of his four sons, he showed great statesmanship in reaching the innermost recesses of the people's minds by saying "No, do not think that my sons are dead. They have gone into the lap of the Eternal Father, And on this earth, millions of my Singhs will always live and glorify my Father's Name." 
*He was a great patriot and liberator* who created self-confidence in his countrymen when they were degraded, debased and demoralised. His love for his country was bound less. *He was the first to establish a democratic system in religion and politics*. He was a nation-builder whose ideas still guide his followers. Perhaps, for the first time in history the Guru set an example of a disciple baptizing a prophet when he requested his Five Beloved Ones to baptise him and accept him as a member of The Khalsa. 
He valued his principles more than anything else. Once when on his way to Deccan, he bowed to the grave of a Muslim saint, in violation of his own instructions to The Khalsa, at once the Sikhs protested and the Guru was severely criticised. He gladly agreed to be judged and punished by the Sikhs. The Sikhs sat as judges and fined him. He gladly paid the fine. Later he disclosed that he did all this to test his Sikhs to see whether they cared more for their principles than mere personalities. 
*Although the Guru had so many rare qualities of the head and the heart, he was never proud*. He attributed all his successes to the grace of God and to the bravery of the Khalsa and said, "It is through their kindness that I have been so exalted; though there are millions of people like me." 
*Thus we find in Guru Gobind Singh an ideal man, a poet, a scholar, a householder, a philosopher, a reformer and an internationalist. He was a friend of all, a fearless statesman, an excellent warrior, a reputed general, a famous administrator, a nation builder and a master of humour. The world will have to wait a long, long time to see such an ideal person again. *  
What he inherited -
Before the birth of Guru Gobind Singh the tyranny of the Muslim rulers had beaten all records. M. Dods describes it as follows: 
"Here converts (to Islam) are made on the field of battle with the sword at their throat. Tribes are, in a single hour, convinced of the truth of the new faith, because they have no alternative but extermination." 
(M. Dods, pages 101, 102)
"The spirit of the Sikh religion promised to keep its votaries at peace with all mankind; but such views of comprehensive charity were particularly odious to the bigoted section of the Mohammedans." 
(Elphinston)
"Nanak preached the gospel of peace; but there was no peace for Sikhs in the empire of the Mughals. Just as the Romans sought, by unremitting persecution, to stamp out Christianity, so the Mughal Emperors sought to stamp out The Khalsa. Like the Romans, they succeeded only in strengthening that which it was their purpose to destroy." 
(C. H. Payne, page 30)
"The officially avowed policy in re-imposing the Jazia (a special tax imposed on the Hindus) was to increase the number of Muslims by putting pressure on the Hindus. The contemporary observer, Manucci noticed, 'any Hindus who were unable to pay, turned Muhammedan to obtain relief from the collectors." 
(J. N. Sarkar Aurangzeb Rejoices, page 158)
"Ishwro va Dilishwro va - The lord of Delhi is as great as God - had long been a maxim with the terrified Hindus." 
(G. C. Narang, The Transformation of Sikhism, page 98)
What he left -
"He had broken the charm of sanctity attached to the lord of Delhi and destroyed the awe and terrier inspired by Muslim tyranny. Govind (Singh) had seen what was yet vital in the Hindu race, and he resumed it with promethean fire. He had taken up sparrows and had taught them to hunt down Imperial hawks. He was the first Indian leader who taught democratic principles and made his followers regard each other as Bhai or brother, and act by Gurmatta or general counsels. He taught them to regard themselves as the chosen of the Lord destined to crush tyranny and oppression, and look upon themselves as the future rulers of their land." 
(G. C. Narang, Transformation of Sikhism, page 98)
"It is acknowledged on all hands that the conversion of a band of undisciplined Jats (given to rapine and plunder or to agricultural pursuits) into a body of conquerors and a political corporation, was due entirely to the genius of (Guru) Gobind (Singh)." 
(Mohammed Latif, History of the Punjab)
"A living spirit possesses the whole Sikh people, and the impress of (Guru) Gobind (Singh) has not only elevated and altered the constitution of their minds, but has operated materially and given amplitude to their physical frames. The features and external form of a whole people have been modified, and a Sikh chief is not more distinguishable by his stately person and free and manly bearing, than a minister of his faith is by a lofty thoughtfulness of look, which Darks the fervour of his soul and his persuasion of the near presence of the divinity." 
(Cunningham's History of the Sikhs, page 75)
Some Independent Opinions -
"Come one, come all, follow me, 
The Guru gives you the call. 
From the depth of my inspired soul I say: 
Awake, my country, awake, arise." 
(Rabindra Nath Tagore)
"Again and again have I meditated on the Khalsa Vows and aspirations. I wished these were inscribed on tablets and passed on from school to school, from college to college, from group to group of students and young folk, eager to serve India in these difficult days." 
(Sadhu T. L. Vaswani)
"The creation of the Khalsa was the greatest work of the Guru. He created a type of superman, a universal man of God, casteless and country less. The Guru regarded himself as the servant of the Khalsa. He said, "To serve them pleases me the most; no other service is so dear to my soul." The Khalsa was the spearhead of resistance against tyranny." 
(Miss Pearl, S. Buck)
"If we consider the work which (Guru) Gobind (Singh) accomplished, both in reforming his religion and instituting a new code of law for his followers, his personal bravery under all circumstances; his persevering endurance amidst difficulties, which would have disheartened others and overwhelmed them in inextricable distress, and lastly his final victory over his powerful enemies by the very men who had previously forsaken him, we need not be surprised that the Sikhs venerate his memory. He was undoubtedly a great man." 
(W, L. McGregor)


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## Neutral Singh (Jan 12, 2005)

> I Would like to say that the writer of the book listed influential people and didnt take into account what influences these people left


Thanks Dr. Sahib, that easily summed up the whole topic... 

Regards


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## ksnagra13 (Jan 15, 2005)

Hey.  Muslim I would just like to say I think you intrepreting "influential" in the wrong way.  Looking at this century Hilter can probaly be ranked one of the most influential people in the world.  

Another thing, there are only 1.3 billion muslims in the world and by year 2025 it Christainity will number 3 billion and Islam 2 billion. (I suggest you trying using neutral sources and not islamic websites). 

Also do you know that you guys maybe gaining thousands of converts in europe and north america, but are lsoing millions in africa.  6 million people in africa convert to christainity every year. 

another thing i would like to add is that MAJOR reason why you guys are the fastest growing religion ins't due to converts, but its because you guys procreate like rabbits.


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## lion (Jan 15, 2005)

ksnagra13 said:
			
		

> Hey.  Muslim I would just like to say I think you intrepreting "influential" in the wrong way.  Looking at this century Hilter can probaly be ranked one of the most influential people in the world.
> 
> Another thing, there are only 1.3 billion muslims in the world and by year 2025 it Christainity will number 3 billion and Islam 2 billion. (I suggest you trying using neutral sources and not islamic websites).
> 
> ...



yeah!,there are more muslims leaving islam,then converting into...,after seeing the true face of this religion......


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## basha (Jan 15, 2005)

Well I dont know whats going on in Africa but clearly any intelligent person can tell you that Islam is growing like wild fire, and it is both due to its message which purifies the soul and its culture and customs. And it is an exponential growth as well cuz we procreate like crazy while the rest of the world is not interested in procreating. Having kids nowadays is seen as a hassle unfortunately. 

 But with all this good news about our numbers increasing, leading to our eventual rulership of the entire planet, we muslims forget how many of us will actually die as muslims, that number being close to none or very few. My point: Strength isnt in numbers. For those that might disagree that most muslims die as non-muslims, I present the following hadith.

 There is  a famous tradition from the Holy Prophet SAWW recorded by both  the Shias  and the Ahle Sunnah traditionalists:

*'One who  dies without recognizing the Imam of his time, dies the death of  ignorance.'

*This means that even if a person accepts and  conforms to all the Islamic beliefs and puts in practice all the edicts, but  dies without recognizing the Imam of his time, his death will be on ignorance  and apostasy. Such a person is condemned to eternal Hellfire regardless of his  deeds in this world. This is because good deeds will only benefit a person  provided his beliefs are correct, as espoused by the Quran and traditions.  Hence, any person, who wants to secure himself from the raging fire of hell,  should necessarily possess the recognition of the Imam of his time and not  simply rely on his worship and virtuous deeds.


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## basha (Jan 16, 2005)

Singhstah said:
			
		

> The above goes to show he hasnt done much reasearch on sikhi, mohammad sahib wasnt the only one to be a founder of a major religion and a major milatry/political leader. Guroo Gobind Singh Ji Mahraj started khalsa and was a great warrior,religious poet,political and military leader,scholar of languages, the list goes on...


 Although we have had many a great leaders, a true leader is able to execute and show results as well as have great ideas. The economics, social morals, education and arts were all transformed overnight (meaning during his lifetime). There hasnt been a leader who has produced results like that since him, although I have utmost respect for the admirable Guru Nanak Ji and venerable Guru Gobind Singh Ji.


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## Singhstah (Jan 16, 2005)

Guroo Gobind Singh Ji made sikhs be able to fight savaaa laakh


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## Platinum007 (Jan 17, 2005)

ksnagra13 said:
			
		

> Hey. Muslim I would just like to say I think you intrepreting "influential" in the wrong way. Looking at this century Hilter can probaly be ranked one of the most influential people in the world.
> 
> Another thing, there are only 1.3 billion muslims in the world and by year 2025 it Christainity will number 3 billion and Islam 2 billion. (I suggest you trying using neutral sources and not islamic websites).
> 
> ...


I'll find the UNBIASED website i was viewing a few months ago, and actually Islam as the most converts compared to any other religions.
Its quite amazing considering they don't go door to door like chirstains begging people to read the broucher they have just given you. I have a few christain friends who do missionary work. They could care less if a person "converts from the heart" they just want that convert. Where as in Islam they want a "real" convert who choses to convert from the heart.

Reguardless the sourses Muslim as provided us with are not bias, you can look at influentional at many different levels, in the view this author used i would agree, but in different views it may be different

just my 2 cents


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## ksnagra13 (Jan 17, 2005)

hey.  

first of all if you read my reply you will see that i didn't say that islam doesn't have the most converts, they do in europe in north america. but the thing you don't relize is that a lot of converts revert after and their are muslims that leave their religion even if you find that hard to believe.

also when i was talking about unbiased site, i was referring to the population of islam and christainity in 2025.  "muslim" stated that in 2025 islam will out number christainity in adherents, which is totally false.   

also its funny when you talk christainity going door to door, in islamic countries muslims don't even bother going to door to door to convince ppl to convert, ppl of other religions are persecuted and oppressed to convert them.  

and regarding influential person, i never once disaggred with it, i must meant that the way muslim was intrepting "influential" is wrong. even a evil person can be considered influential.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 17, 2005)

ksnagra13 said:
			
		

> hey.
> 
> 
> also its funny when you talk christainity going door to door, in islamic countries muslims don't even bother going to door to door to convince ppl to convert, ppl of other religions are persecuted and oppressed to convert them.
> ...


i'm sorry your first point about the door to door just flew over my head maybe you can illistrate more

for your second point yes, even an evil person can be considered influential. But it all depends under what CONTEXT your looking at things. 
Muhammed (peace be upon him) was a very influential in its own respects. Read up on history on Islam, and keep an OPEN MIND to things..its the only way to learn more about other cultures/faiths.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 17, 2005)

ksnagra13 said:
			
		

> also when i was talking about unbiased site, i was referring to the population of islam and christainity in 2025. "muslim" stated that in 2025 islam will out number christainity in adherents, which is totally false.
> 
> .


you seem very confident when you say this, rather then saying it can you PROVE IT, providing facts...

btw, i'm not attacting you.. i just disagree with you from what i've studied over time, and i'll keep an open mind and if you can illistrate your point in a sound logical manner i'll agree with you..


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## ksnagra13 (Jan 18, 2005)

HEY. 

My first point about door to door

you said that you have christian missionaries go door to door trying to just get a convert.  All Iam saying is that is muslim countries, like Egypt a lot of ppl of other faiths are forced into Islam. 

As for influential, I am not saying Muhammed was evil or anything. 

And the last point about religion stats I can't prove it 100%, only time will tell, but most sources I visited show that Christainity will number 3 billion, and Islam 2 billion, and only reason why i sounded confident   is because studies show that it is statisically impossible for Islam to have more adherents than Christainity until 2200. I will find the some sources for you and post it.


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## Neutral Singh (Jan 18, 2005)

> And the last point about religion stats I can't prove it 100%, only time will tell, but most sources I visited show that Christainity will number 3 billion, and Islam 2 billion, and only reason why i sounded confident  is because studies show that it is statisically impossible for Islam to have more adherents than Christainity until 2200. I will find the some sources for you and post it.



And What do we achieve from this ?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 18, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> And What do we achieve from this ?


IMHO....NOTHING.  Its just a case of "my dad is stronger than your dad"...my dad can jump higher than your dad..and so on.

GO to ANY Muslim country... you will find that all other religions are totally "controlled" if not actually banned.  What is the position of non-mulsims in Saudi Arabia ?? a non-muslim cant even enter and go everywherte in peace. in a 100% MUSLIM COUNTRY the muslims feel "threatened" by a few non muslims ?? IN my own country there are LAWS to catch "muslims" eating in public during ramdhan, muslims holding hands in public are arrested...etc religious zealots go peeping into peoples homes to catch them doing...??? god knows what.

Jarnail singh.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
			
		

> IMHO....NOTHING. Its just a case of "my dad is stronger than your dad"...my dad can jump higher than your dad..and so on.
> 
> GO to ANY Muslim country... you will find that all other religions are totally "controlled" if not actually banned. What is the position of non-mulsims in Saudi Arabia ?? a non-muslim cant even enter and go everywherte in peace. in a 100% MUSLIM COUNTRY the muslims feel "threatened" by a few non muslims ?? IN my own country there are LAWS to catch "muslims" eating in public during ramdhan, muslims holding hands in public are arrested...etc religious zealots go peeping into peoples homes to catch them doing...??? god knows what.
> 
> Jarnail singh.


I've had family live in a Muslim country, they come visit and complain of no problems when i ask them.

countries like saudia arbia have compounds where westerns can do what ever they wish, walk in bikini's, kiss in public if they wish, and drink.

Its a muslim country, if they don't WANT to live there they can leave whenever they wish, there are many muslims who WISH to live in Saudia Arabia BECAUSE of its muslims laws. 

In my point of view Saudia Arabia is just protecting itself from any western influence. I live in canada, and trust me when you give people something small they want the whole arm. and what do you end up with?.. high theft levels, prostitiion, cousins, sisters, daughters and sleep around, alcoholics.... list goes on... not that i'm against western society, but after all we get to choose where we want to live.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

*Aman Singh,* I recall reading you live in Pakistan, and from reading this thread it brings up a question in mind... how do you feel about living in pakistan 

thank you


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## Neutral Singh (Jan 19, 2005)

> Aman Singh, I recall reading you live in Pakistan, and from reading this thread it brings up a question in mind... how do you feel about living in pakistan



Dear Platinum007, as i already make myself clear in that thread itself... it is not me but Mehinder Singh Ji, who is putting up in Pakistan and he had PMed his bio-data and i just posted it to let other members know... it hope it clears the matter now...


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Dear Platinum007, as i already make myself clear in that thread itself... it is not me but Mehinder Singh Ji, who is putting up in Pakistan and he had PMed his bio-data and i just posted it to let other members know... it hope it clears the matter now...


Oh, i apologize.. I was up late last night, i maybe have over looked what i read through late night.. thank you kindly for the clear up..

I hope he reads this.. i'm very interested in his input. and if it differs from different regions of pakistan.


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## drkhalsa (Jan 19, 2005)

> I've had family live in a Muslim country, they come visit and complain of no problems when i ask them.
> 
> countries like saudia arbia have compounds where westerns can do what ever they wish, walk in bikini's, kiss in public if they wish, and drink.
> 
> ...





Dear Platinum 

You have met one family but for sure more than one family live in saudi arabia I have some information for you to further open you mind to what is going on 


In Uk Muslim compose 3.1% of population and there are hundereds of mosques and not just one compound for them to do their prayers as you mentioned 

In Saudi Arabia Christian alone 4% but not a single church allowed but yes there may be some coumpond or lounge as you told but this just seems to be a joke 

More than 8 % populationis SHIA muslim are also living there but you can never expect even good news even for them they are considered less than a normal citizen there you can see even a muslim has less rights in islamic country but for sure they may have been provided with similar compound for their practice 

more interesting thing non muslim cant practice his religion in public may be majority are afraid of other religions 

Hindu citizen if happen to claim compensation for something it is just  16 times lower than a muslim that is 1/16 what do you think how fare it is 


Thousands of people covert  to islam  just to live peaceful life with equal rights 
so there is no need for door to door message and you dont need even to mention somebody in saudi arabia to convert to islam as he is literally forced to do so I can hardly comprehend when you say they convert by heart 

And this not isolated case when muslim rulers were in india they used same ways and tactics to convert people they created oppresion and even killed people in india to covert other out of fear ( though it is now old story in indian history but no body know it better than sikhs ) 


rest you can read in this following beautiful document laced with clear facts and figure 
i hope it may help





Saudi Arabia

International Religious Freedom Report 2004
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

The country is ruled by a monarchy with a legal system based on Islamic law (Shari'a). The Government does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not exist in practice. Islam is the official religion, and the law requires that all citizens be Muslims. The Government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions. The Government recognizes the right of non-Muslims to worship in private; however, it does not always respect this right in practice and does not define this right in law. 

There generally was no change in the status of religious freedom during the period covered by this report, although the Government continued a campaign to foster greater moderation and tolerance of religious diversity. The Government enforces a strictly conservative version of Sunni Islam. Muslims who do not adhere to the officially sanctioned Salafi (commonly called "Wahhabi") tradition can face severe repercussions at the hands of the Mutawwa'in (religious police). The Government continued to detain Shi'a leaders. Members of the Shi'a minority continued to face political and economic discrimination, including limited employment opportunities, little representation in official institutions, and restrictions on the practice of their faith and on the building of mosques and community centers. The Government has stated publicly that its policy is to allow non-Muslims to worship privately; however, this policy is not consistently enforced, resulting in the violation of some non-Muslims' freedom of worship and causing other non-Muslims to worship in fear of harassment and in such a manner as to avoid discovery. 


During the period covered by this report, senior government officials made some efforts to improve the climate of tolerance toward other religions and within Islam. The Government convened a second and third session of the "National Dialogue" meeting that included members of different Muslim traditions and both men and women and issued statements condemning incitements to violence. The session released a set of recommendations that called for educational reform and development of tolerance and moderation in education. The Government also took measures to remove what it deemed to be disparaging references to other religious traditions from the educational curriculum. In addition, increased press freedom permitted journalists to criticize publicly abuses by the religious police. However, religious discrimination and sectarian tension in society continued during the period covered by this report, including denunciations of non-Muslim religions from government-sanctioned pulpits. 


In January and February, the country hosted approximately 2 million Muslim pilgrims from around the world and all branches of Islam for the annual hajj pilgrimage. The majority of citizens support a state based on Islamic law, and many oppose public non-Muslim worship, although there continued to exist differing views regarding how this should be realized in practice. There continued to be societal discrimination against members of the Shi'a minority. 


The U.S. Government discusses religious freedom issues with the Government as part of its overall policy to promote human rights. Senior administration officials continued to raise U.S. concerns with the Government. In September 2004, the Secretary of State designated Saudi Arabia as a "Country of Particular Concern" under the International Religious Freedom Act for particularly severe violations of religious freedom. 


Section I. Religious Demography 


The country has a total area of 1,225,000 square miles, and its population is approximately 24 million, with an estimated foreign population of 6 to 7 million. The foreign population includes approximately 1.4 million Indians, 1 million Bangladeshis, nearly 900,000 Pakistanis, 800,000 Filipinos, 750,000 Egyptians, 250,000 Palestinians, 150,000 Lebanese, 130,000 Sri Lankans, 40,000 Eritreans, and 30,000 Americans. Comprehensive statistics for the religious denominations of foreigners are not available; however, they include Muslims from the various branches and schools of Islam, Christians, and Hindus. Approximately 90 percent of the Filipino community is Christian. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops estimates there are considerably more than 500,000 Catholics in the country and perhaps as many as 1 million. 


The majority of citizens are Sunni Muslims who predominantly adhere to the strict interpretation of Islam taught by the Salafi School. 


Approximately 2 million citizens are Shi'a Muslims, the vast majority of whom live in the Eastern Province, where they constitute between 40 and 50 percent of the Province's citizen population. 


There is no information regarding foreign missionaries in the country. Proselytization by non-Sunni Muslims is not permitted, and the promotion of non-Salafi Sunni Islam is restricted. 


Section II. Status of Religious Freedom 


Legal/Policy Framework 


Freedom of religion does not exist. It is not recognized or protected under the country's laws, and basic religious freedoms are denied to all but those who adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Sunni Islam. Citizens are denied the freedom to choose or change their religion, and noncitizens practice their beliefs under severe restrictions. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The Government limits the practice of all but the officially sanctioned version of Islam and prohibits the public practice of other religions. During the period covered by this report, the Government publicly restated its policy that non-Muslims are free to practice their religions at home and in private. While the Government does not always respect this right in practice, many non-Muslims engage in private worship without harassment. As custodian of Islam's two holiest sites in Mecca and Medina, the Government considers its legitimacy to rest largely on its interpretation and enforcement of Shari'a. Consequently, the Government has declared the Koran and the Sunna (tradition) of Muhammad to be the country's Constitution. The Government follows the rigorously conservative and strict interpretation of the Salafi (often referred to as "Wahhabi") school of the Sunni branch of Islam and discriminates against other branches of Islam. Neither the Government nor society in general accepts the concept of separation of religion and state. 


The country is governed according to the Basic Law, which sets out the system of government, rights of residents and citizens, and powers and duties of the Government. The judiciary bases its judgments largely on Shari'a, a legal system derived from the Koran and the Sunna. The Government permits Shi'a Muslims to use their own legal tradition to adjudicate cases limited to family law, inheritance, and endowment management. However, there are only two such judges, one in Qatif and one in al Hasa, which is insufficient to serve the sizable Shi'a populations of those areas and the rest of the country. 


The 'Eid al-Fitr and 'Eid al-Adha religious holidays are recognized as the only national holidays. During the period covered by this report, the Government again permitted the observance of the Shi'a holiday of Ashura in the eastern city of Qatif and in the southern province of Najran. Small-scale, public observances of Ashura also occurred in Al-Hasa and Saihat. 


Hindus are considered polytheists by Islamic law, which is used as a justification for greater discrimination in calculating accidental death or injury compensation. According to the country's "Hanbali" interpretation of Shari'a, once fault is determined by a court, a Muslim male receives 100 percent of the amount of compensation determined, a male Jew or Christian receives 50 percent, and all others (including Hindus and Sikhs) receive 1/16 of the amount a male Muslim receives. 


Restrictions on Religious Freedom 


Tolerated Islamic practice generally is limited to a school of the Sunni branch of Islam as interpreted by Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab, an 18th century Arab religious leader. (This branch of Islam is often referred to as "Wahhabi," a term that many adherents to this tradition do not use. The teachings of Abd Al-Wahhab are more often referred to by adherents as "Salafi" or "Muwahiddun," that is, following the forefathers of Islam, or unifiers of Islamic practice.) Practices contrary to this interpretation, such as celebration of the Prophet Muhammad's birthday and visits to the tombs of renowned Muslims, are forbidden. The Government prohibits the spreading of Islamic teachings that do not conform to the officially accepted interpretation of Islam. During the period covered by this report, there was an increasing degree of public discussion of the conservative religious traditions. Particularly after the May 2003 terror attacks in Riyadh, some citizen writers began to criticize abuses committed by the religious police (the Committee to Promote Virtue and Prevent Vice, commonly called the "Mutawwa'in"). However, discussion of religious issues is severely constrained, and the editors and writers of major local daily newspapers have been temporarily or permanently banned for the publication of articles and cartoons critical of the religious establishment. 


The Ministry of Islamic Affairs supervises and finances the construction and maintenance of almost all mosques, although approximately 30 percent of all mosques are built and endowed by private persons for charity or at private residences. However, all mosques fall under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Islamic Affairs. The Ministry pays the salaries of imams (prayer leaders) and others who work in the mosques. The Committee to Promote Virtue and Prevent Vice is a governmental entity, whose chairman has ministerial status. A separate government committee defines the qualifications of imams. 


Since the May and November 2003 terrorist attacks in Riyadh, the Government has taken public measures to control religious extremism. It continued to fire imams for immoderate preaching, and it began retraining and providing "guidance" for preachers. The Government also held training courses for Mutawwa'in in interpersonal relations. 


The Government bars foreign imams from leading worship during the most heavily attended prayer times, and it prohibits them from delivering sermons during Friday congregational prayers. The Government states that its actions are part of its "Saudization" plan to replace foreign workers with citizens. Writers and other individuals who publicly criticized this interpretation, including both those who advocated a stricter interpretation and those who favored a more moderate interpretation than the Government's, risked sanctions. Several journalists who wrote critically about the religious leadership or who questioned theological dogma temporarily were banned from writing or traveling abroad. 


Under Shari'a, conversion by a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy, a crime punishable by death if the accused does not recant. There were no executions for apostasy during the period covered by this report, and there have been no reports of such executions for several years. During the period covered by this report, a schoolteacher was tried for apostasy, and eventually convicted in March of blasphemy; the person was given a prison sentence of 3 years and 300 lashes. The trial received substantial press coverage. 


The Government prohibits public non-Muslim religious activities. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment, lashing, deportation, and sometimes torture for engaging in religious activity that attracts official attention. The Government has stated publicly, including before the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva, that its policy is to allow non-Muslim foreigners to worship privately. However, the Government does not provide explicit guidelines--such as the number of persons permitted to attend and acceptable locations--for determining what constitutes private worship, which makes distinctions between public and private worship unclear. This lack of clarity and instances of inconsistent enforcement led many non-Muslims to worship in fear of harassment and in such a way as to avoid discovery. The Government usually deported those detained for visible non-Muslim worship after sometimes lengthy periods of arrest during investigation. In some cases, they also were sentenced to receive lashes prior to deportation. 


The Government officially does not permit non-Muslim clergy to enter the country to conduct religious services, although some come under other auspices, and the Government generally has allowed their performance of discreet religious functions. Such restrictions make it very difficult for most non-Muslims to maintain contact with clergymen and attend services. Catholics and Orthodox Christians, who require a priest on a regular basis to receive the sacraments required by their faith, particularly are affected. 


Proselytizing by non-Muslims, including the distribution of non-Muslim religious materials such as Bibles, is illegal. Proselytizing by non-Sunni Muslims also is not permitted, and the promotion of non-Salafi Sunni Islam is restricted. Muslims or non-Muslims wearing religious symbols of any kind in public risk confrontation with the Mutawwa'in. The Ministry of Islamic Affairs sponsors approximately 50 so-called "Call and Guidance" centers employing approximately 500 persons to convert foreigners to Islam. Some non-Muslim foreigners convert to Islam during their stay in the country. The press often carries articles about such conversions, including testimonials. 


The Government requires noncitizens to carry Iqamas, or legal resident identity cards, which contain a religious designation for "Muslim" or "non-Muslim." There have been reports that individual Mutawwa'in have pressured sponsors not to renew Iqamas, which had been issued for employment, of individuals for religious reasons. 


Members of the Shi'a minority are the subjects of officially sanctioned political and economic discrimination. During the period covered by this report, authorities continued to permit a greater degree of freedom to Shi'ites in the Eastern Province city of Qatif than in the past, overlooking religious practices and gatherings that were previously prevented. There were no reports of meeting places being closed in Qatif. However, in other areas with large Shi'a populations, such as al-Hasa and Dammam, there continued to be restrictions on Shi'a religious practices. In February and March, observances of Ashura took place in Qatif, although the police presence outside of Qatif was much larger than in the past. However, there were no reports of police interference with Ashura celebrations. In Qatif's city center, large groups of Shi'a gathered to hear Shi'a clerics speak and to purchase books and other religious paraphernalia. Many Shi'a travel to Qatif or Bahrain to participate in Ashura celebrations because of restrictions on public observances in other parts of the country. The Government continued sporadically to enforce other restrictions on the Shi'a community, such as banning Shi'a books and excluding Shi'a perspectives from the extensive religious media and broadcast programming. 


Shi'a have declined government offers to build state-supported mosques because they fear the Government would prohibit the incorporation and display of Shi'a motifs in any such mosques. In the past, Shi'a have been permitted to build new Hussainiyas (gathering places) in Qatif and Ahsa, but the Government has closed Shi'a mosques built without government permission. 


Members of the Shi'a minority are discriminated against in government employment, especially in national security-related positions, such as in the military or Ministry of Interior. While there are some Shi'a who occupy high-level positions in government-owned companies and government agencies, many Shi'a believe that openly identifying oneself as Shi'a will have a negative impact on career advancement. There is an absence of Shi'a representatives in government, both local and national. While there is no formal policy concerning the hiring and promotion of Shi'a, anecdotal evidence suggests that in some companies -- including companies in the oil and petrochemical industries--Shi'a are passed over for less-qualified Sunni compatriots. 


The Government also discriminates against Shi'a in higher education through unofficial restrictions on the number of Shi'a admitted to universities. There are no Shi'a principals in the approximately 300 female schools in the Eastern Province. While government officials state that textbook language with prejudicial, anti-Shi'a statements has been removed, some teachers have not been retrained and continue to use anti-Shi'a rhetoric. Some cases have resulted in punitive measures being taken against Shi'a parents who have complained. There are no Shi'a cabinet ministers, and there are only 2 Shi'a in the 120-member Majlis al-Shura (consultative council). There are no Shi'a members of the country's highest religious authority, the Council of Senior Islamic Scholars (Ulema). 


Since 2001, the Government has allowed Shi'a citizens to travel freely to Iran for religious pilgrimages. Travel to Iraq is more difficult due to the security situation. However, many Shi'a from the Eastern Province traveled to Karbala during Ashura. 


Under the provisions of Shari'a law as practiced in the country, judges may discount the testimony of nonpracticing Muslims or of individuals who do not adhere to the official interpretation of Islam. Legal sources report that testimony by Shi'a is often ignored in courts of law or is deemed to have less weight than testimony by Sunnis. 


Customs officials routinely open mail and shipments to search for contraband, including Sunni printed material deemed incompatible with the Salafi tradition of Islam, Shi'a religious materials, and non-Muslim materials, such as Bibles and religious videotapes. Such materials are subject to confiscation, although rules appear to be applied arbitrarily. 


Sunni Islamic religious education is mandatory in public schools at all levels. Regardless of which Islamic tradition their families adhere to, all public school children receive religious instruction that conforms to the Salafi tradition of Islam. Non-Muslim students in private schools are not required to study Islam. Private religious schools are not permitted for non-Muslims or for Muslims adhering to non-Salafi traditions of Islam. Shi'a are banned from teaching religion in schools. 


Public debate over reform in the country continued during the period covered by this report. In August 2003, Crown Prince Abdullah announced the establishment of the King Abd al-Aziz Center for National Dialogue. In December 2003, the Second Session of the "National Dialogue" was held in Mecca. The session issued recommendations that called for educational reform and studies to examine religious extremism in the country, and it included representatives from different Muslim religious traditions. Following the second session in January, a group of religious conservatives published a petition to the Crown Prince warning against diminishing the role of religion in school curriculums. Shi'a were represented at both sessions. Nevertheless, despite positive statements, there has been little tangible improvement in the status of those who do not adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Islam or who belong to a minority religious group. 


During the period covered by this report, the Government approved the formation of the National Human Rights Association (NHRA). The NHRA, the country's first human rights organization, is chaired by a member of the Majlis al-Shura (Consultative Council) and has stated that one of its tasks is to ensure that the Government complies with international human rights agreements to which it is a signatory, as well as with human rights standards under Islam. 


Abuses of Freedom of Religion 


During the period covered by this report, the Government continued to commit abuses of religious freedom. However, reports of abuses often are difficult or impossible to corroborate. Fear and consequent secrecy surrounding any non-Muslim religious activity contribute to reluctance to disclose any information that might harm persons under government investigation. Moreover, information regarding government practices is incomplete because judicial proceedings generally are closed to the public, although the 2002 Criminal Procedural Law allows some court proceedings to be open to the public. 


While there was an improvement in press freedom during the period covered by this report, open discussion of religious issues remained constrained. The press reported on debates in the Majlis al-Shura that focused on whether individuals must be Muslim to attain citizenship and included opinions on both sides of the issue. In November 2003, Mansur al-Noqaidan, a writer for Al-Riyadh, an Arabic-language paper, published an editorial in the New York Times criticizing the Government's response to religious extremism. Al-Noqaidan was sentenced to lashes for writing articles critical of the religious establishment in the press. This sentence had not been carried out by the end of the period covered by this report. There was also a report that a university professor was banned from teaching for criticizing the Government's discriminatory policies against Shi'a. The professor also was banned from traveling abroad. 


There were no reported arrests of Shi'a religious leaders for religious violations. In September 2003, the press reported a raid in the Al Jouf region, where 16 Sufis were arrested for possession and distribution of books, videos, and brochures promoting Sufism. According to various reports, a number of Shi'a remained in detention during the period covered by this report, and there were reports of religious prisoners who were subjected to torture. Sheikh Ali bin Ali al-Ghanim was released from prison in 2002 after 20 months' imprisonment. During the period covered by this report, there were no new reports of young Shi'a being detained for extended periods of time. In the past, in such cases charges were rarely filed, and family members were not notified where the young men were held. 


The Government continued to detain and deport non-Muslims for religious reasons. In 2003, an Ethiopian Christian activist leader was deported after an employment dispute led to investigation of his religious activities. 


In October 2003, two Egyptian Christians were arrested by Mutawwa'in and jailed for religious activities. They were both released in November 2003, and neither was deported. Two other Catholics were arrested in Riyadh in October 2003 by regular police and released the same day without charge. 


In February, a resident Christian was deported after providing an Arabic Bible to a citizen. In April, there were credible reports that Mutawwa'in arrested Brian O'Connor, an Indian Christian, for religious reasons after a dispute with his employer. According to reports, the Mutawwa'in beat him on the day of the arrest. The reports also claim that the Mutawwa'in confiscated his personal property, in addition to two Bibles, compact disks, a personal computer, and religious materials in video format. The Indian was in custody in Al Ha'ir jail on alcohol charges at the end of the period covered by this report, but colleagues claim that the charges against him were false and based on planted evidence. 


There also were reports of surveillance of Christian religious services by security personnel. 


Magic is widely believed in and sometimes practiced; however, under Shari'a the practice of magic is regarded as the worst form of polytheism, an offense for which no repentance is accepted and which is punishable by death. There were an unknown number of detainees held in prison on the charge of "sorcery," including the practice of "black magic" or "witchcraft." There have been no reports of executions for several years. During the period covered by this report, the local press reported several cases of arrests of foreigners and citizens for practicing sorcery. 


Mutawwa'in practices and incidents of abuse varied widely in different regions of the country. Reports of incidents were most numerous in the central Nejd region, which includes the capital Riyadh. In certain areas, both the Mutawwa'in and religious vigilantes acting on their own harassed, assaulted, battered, arrested, and detained citizens and foreigners. The Government requires the Mutawwa'in to follow established procedures and to offer instruction in a polite manner; however, Mutawwa'in did not always comply with the requirements. During the period covered by this report, the Government acknowledged inappropriate conduct by some Mutawwa'in but refused to provide information on the number of reported incidents or disciplinary actions. While senior officials have defended the role of the Mutawwa'in, in 2003 the committee announced plans for a training program for Mutawwa'in in interpersonal skills; however, the extent and effect of the program was not clear at the end of the period covered by this report. During this period, and particularly after the May 2003 terrorist bombings in Riyadh, reports of Mutawwa'in abuses declined considerably. 


Mutawwa'in enforcement of strict standards of social behavior included closing commercial establishments during five daily prayer observances, insisting upon compliance with strict norms of public dress, and dispersing gatherings in public places. In October 2003, the Mutawwa'in reminded foreign workers to respect Ramadan, stating that if individuals were found ignoring the societal norms associated with Ramadan, they would be liable for punishment. Mutawwa'in reproached citizen and foreign women for failure to observe strict dress codes, and they detained men and women found together who were not married or closely related. In December 2003, the press reported that the Mutawwa'in warned shopkeepers in the Eastern Province not to sell New Year's or Christmas gifts or decorations. The warning also reminded employees not to allow their staff to celebrate either holiday openly. In February, the Grand Mufti restated a previously issued fatwa that declared Valentine's Day a "pagan Christian holiday" that could not be celebrated publicly. The Mutawwa'in banned shopkeepers from selling Valentine's Day gifts and decorations and forbade vendors from selling roses 5 days prior to and following February 14. 


The Mutawwa'in have the authority to detain persons for no more than 24 hours for violation of strict standards of proper dress and behavior; however, they sometimes exceeded this limit before delivering detainees to the police. Procedures require a police officer to accompany the Mutawwa'in at the time of arrest; Mutawwa'in generally complied with this requirement. According to reports, the Mutawwa'in also are no longer permitted to detain citizens for more than a few hours, may not conduct investigations, and may no longer allow unpaid volunteers to accompany official patrols. 


During the period covered by this report, there were no reports of abuse cases involving Hindus. The Government regards members of the large Hindu community as polytheists, and non-Muslim, non-Western religious communities must exercise extreme caution when practicing their religion. 


During the period covered by this report, there were frequent instances in which mosque preachers, whose salaries are paid by the Government, used violently anti-Jewish and anti-Christian language in their sermons. Although this language has declined in frequency since the May 2003 attacks, there continue to be instances in which Mosque speakers prayed for the death of Jews and Christians, including from the Grand Mosque in Mecca and the Prophet's Mosque in Medina. 


Abuses by Terrorist Organizations 


During the period covered by this report, al-Qa'ida terrorists conducted a campaign of terrorist attacks in various locations in the country. In these attacks, they killed both Muslims and non-Muslims, citizens and expatriates, and members of the security forces. The terrorists justified these murders through an extreme religious ideology. In at least one incident, the May attack on a Western housing compound in al-Khobar, terrorists singled out non-Muslims for execution. 


Forced Religious Conversion 


Under the law, children of male citizens are considered Muslim, regardless of the country or the religious tradition in which they have been raised. The Government's application of this law discriminates against non-Muslim, noncitizen mothers and denies their children the freedom to choose their religion. There were no reports of the forced religious conversion of minor U.S. citizens who had been abducted or illegally removed from the United States during the period covered by this report. 


Improvements and Positive Developments in Respect for Religious Freedom 


During the period covered by this report, senior government officials made some efforts to improve the climate of tolerance toward other religions and within Islam. The Government convened a second and third session of the "National Dialogue" meeting that included members of different Muslim traditions and both men and women. The sessions presented a set of written recommendations to the Government that called for educational reform and development of tolerance and moderation in education. 


The Government also took limited measures to remove what it deemed to be disparaging references to other religious traditions from the educational curriculum. In addition, increased press freedom permitted journalists to publicly criticize abuses by the religious police. 


During the period covered by this report, the Government approved the formation of the NHRA, the country's first independent human rights body, which is chaired by a member of the Majlis al-Shura. 


Senior leaders, including the Crown Prince and the Grand Mufti, called for moderation. These efforts continued to intensify after the May and November 2003 terror attacks in Riyadh. In August 2003, the highest religious authorities called on Muslims in the country to turn away from religious extremism and unjustified jihad. 


Section III. Societal Attitudes 


As a deeply conservative and devout Muslim society, there is intense pressure to conform to societal norms. During the period covered by this report, a citizen teacher was tried for apostasy. The case received substantial press coverage, but after testimony the court declined to convict him of apostasy and instead convicted him of blasphemy. 


The conservative religious leadership also exerts pressure on the state to maintain its strict Islamic practices. To combat religious extremism, in May 2003 the Government announced the firing of several hundred prayer leaders and began to retrain them and other mosque employees. 


Following the June 2003 session of the "National Intellectual Dialogue," participants representing different Muslim traditions in the country, including Sunni and Shi'ite leaders, issued a statement acknowledging that theological differences are "natural" and committing themselves to resolve differences through dialogue. The Government held a second session in Mecca in December 2003 that discussed educational reform, including the role of religion in school curriculums. 


There is societal discrimination against members of the Shi'a minority. The majority of citizens support a state based on Islamic law and oppose public non-Muslim worship, although there are differing views as to how this should be realized in practice. The official title of the head of state is "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques," and the role of the King and the Government in upholding Islam within the country is regarded as a paramount function throughout the Muslim world. 


Many non-Muslims who undertook religious observances privately and discreetly during the period covered by this report were not harassed. However, some non-Muslims claimed that informants paid by the Mutawwa'in infiltrated their private worship groups. 


Relations between Muslim citizens and foreign Muslims are generally good. Each year the country welcomes approximately 2 million Muslim pilgrims from all over the world and of all branches of Islam, who visit the country to perform the hajj and umra. 


In certain areas, religious vigilantes unaffiliated with the Government and acting on their own, harassed, assaulted, battered, arrested, and detained citizens and foreigners. 


During the period covered by this report, the local press rarely printed articles or commentaries disparaging other religions; however, following the May attack in which terrorists killed six Westerners in Yanbu, the Crown Prince publicly stated that he believed Zionism was behind recent acts of terrorism. 


Section IV. U.S. Government Policy 


The U.S. Government discusses religious freedom issues with the Government as part of its overall policy to promote human rights. U.S. Government policy is to press the Government consistently to honor its public commitment to permit private religious worship by non-Muslims, eliminate discrimination against minorities, and promote tolerance toward non-Muslims. 


During the period covered by this report, the U.S. Ambassador discussed U.S. concerns over the lack of religious freedom with a wide range of senior government and religious leaders. The Ambassador also raised specific cases of violations with senior officials, and U.S. Embassy officers met with Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) officials to deliver and discuss the U.S. Government's 2003 Annual Report on International Religious Freedom. Senior Embassy officers called on the Government to enforce its public commitment to allow private religious practice and to respect the rights of Muslims who do not follow the Salafi tradition of Islam. The U.S. Ambassador at Large for International Religious Freedom visited the country in October 2003 and met with senior government officials to raise religious freedom issues. In addition, Embassy officers met with MFA officials at various other times to discuss matters pertaining to religious freedom. In September 2004, the Secretary of State designated Saudi Arabia as a "Country of Particular Concern" under the International Religious Freedom Act for particularly severe violations of religious freedom.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

i didn't have time to read the whole article since i have school soon enough, but from skimming through it i'm sure many of the things in Saudia Arabia arn't all fine and dandy.. the Royal family is taking advantage of many of its citizens... women are not allowed to drive (when in Islam thats allowed).. Many of the arabs have taken advantage of there people thats why right now we see many Saudi citizens wanting a reform in the state of saudia arabia.. I would agree that many of the royal saudi's arn't doing all that well when it comes to running a country. but becuase a so called "muslims" are running a country to there desire does not reflect a relgion.. many of the things the "muslim" are doing in that country does not even reflect the religion at all

No the compounds are not a joke, I've heard from a first hand sourse who used to be a manger in those compounds.. many of the westerns where very happy living there dong what ever they liked in there compounds.

As for the converting in India, from what i've read about recent history the hindu religion has a caste system and when a person of the lower caste can't get a job he has no choice to convert to another relgion this is the reason why there was a mass convertion many years ago when lower caste hindu's converted to budism. In many of these cases it was due to the fact the lower caste hindu's where not able to advance in society as higher caste hindu's.
right now india is addressing this problem for the lower caste people but this was just recent.


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## basha (Jan 26, 2005)

Platinum007 said:
			
		

> right now india is addressing this problem for the lower caste people but this was just recent.


 addressing it? Just ban the caste system. How can a person be evaluated based on something that he had no control of, ie being born into a lower caste. And who are we to say which human being is lower in our eyes when in the almighty's eyes (and yes, hindus do believe in one god) every human being is equal. I hope the people rise up and demand that this practice be banned, it would not just be good for India but will also set an example world wide of the human values India is based on. Other countries which have similar unequality practices under different names will also learn a lesson from this ban.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 26, 2005)

basha said:
			
		

> How can a person be evaluated based on something that he had no control of


This is done all the time in society - sexuality, race, gender... this list goes on.

The caste system has been taken out of hand but the concept of it is not wrong. Castes are simply assigned different jobs and tasks in life. But all castes are equal since the soul has no gender, race, caste, sexuality, religion etc. So rather than banning it, people need to just stop the discrimination on grounds of caste.


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## singhaj (Jan 26, 2005)

Mr. basha

 I think the caste system has been banned in India for a while, but it is going to take a long time before the people in India actuall forget about it.........

 The idea might have been great when this was setup upteen years ago, but it has been abused so badly it is not worth keeping it.


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## Arvind (Jan 26, 2005)

singhaj said:
			
		

> I think the caste system has been banned in India for a while, but it is going to take a long time before the people in India actuall forget about it.........


I dont think so! There exists SC/ST quota in most of the government sector jobs.


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## The lion king (Jan 30, 2005)

How about a list of 100 Most Influential Persons whose existence are VERIFIABLE?


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## nsbuttar (Jan 30, 2005)

singhaj said:
			
		

> Mr. basha
> 
> I think the caste system has been banned in India for a while, but it is going to take a long time before the people in India actuall forget about it.........
> 
> The idea might have been great when this was setup upteen years ago, but it has been abused so badly it is not worth keeping it.


 Infact from the minds of new generation, the caste system is evaporating slowly in India. Hopefully the next generation will not believe in it totally and the castes will be written only because of historical/religious reasons.

 And as for as SC/ST quaota is concerned, hope for the better scene after the western universities are allowed to setup their centers of education in india (coz of WTO or some clause in it, this is gonna happen) this should eliminate (or will get eliminated slowly). Moreover Superme Court has already abolished reservation for higher studies. I think India is on right path as far as this is concerned. Slowly though.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 30, 2005)

basha said:
			
		

> addressing it? Just ban the caste system. How can a person be evaluated based on something that he had no control of, ie being born into a lower caste. And who are we to say which human being is lower in our eyes when in the almighty's eyes (and yes, hindus do believe in one god) every human being is equal. I hope the people rise up and demand that this practice be banned, it would not just be good for India but will also set an example world wide of the human values India is based on. Other countries which have similar unequality practices under different names will also learn a lesson from this ban.


Just "banning" or Name change ( harijans) etc wont solve the problem. The UNDERLYING reasons for discrimination are Language/economics/land/power etc. The poor low caste hindus like chumaars, choorreh, scavengers etc WITHOUT land/power/economic clout were SECOND third class muslims in Pakistan where the power is in the hands of the SARDARS.RANDHAWAS JATTS landowners muslims.. These chammars were at the bottom of the hindu heap..and ended up at the bottom of the muslim heap..which JATT SARDAR WEALTHY MUSLIM from PUNJAB is going to allow his daughter to marry the son of a TELI/CHMAAR muslim form Bihar ?? The BIHARI MUJAHIRS should DEMAND equal rights human values..and be an example to the world ???they have been demanding..bloodshed and murders strikes occur in karachi monthly/yearly..mosques get bombed (muslims bombing muslims)

PAKISTAN was created specifically for MUSLIMS....yet..more than HALF the Muslims never even went to Pakistan..
The BIHARI/UP Muslims were traeted worse than DIRT in Pakistan which is dominated by PUNJABI MUSLIMS ( there is Political turmoil till today in pakistan caused by these Mohajirs who are THIRD CLASS ciitzens of the Pakistan Muslim republic ??? why this discrimination..arent they all Muslims ??
BENGAL broke off from pakistan in the worst case bloody revolt..the worst atroscities rapes, etc by pakistani soldiers agaisnt Bengali women and children have been recorded..Bangaldesh is now a separate country from paksitan..why couldnt these two live as one muslim country ?/ again culture/language/economics came BEFORE the common religion.

This SAME RELIGION thery has been debunked properly in the paksitan Scenario..IF tomorrow the ENTIRE WORLD become Muslim overnight... the "American Muslim" will still be World Policeman...Muslim "BUSH" will still be bombing Iraqi muslims because he wants iraqi oil..and Black Muslims will still be slaves....NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Thse are falalcies in the dreamwolrd..REALITY CHECK...please.

Jarnail Singh


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## Arvind (Jan 31, 2005)

Gyani ji,

That s a big reality check you raised. These are what we may call human (or still better kalyug) tendencies!!!

Regards.


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## basha (Feb 7, 2005)

Gyani bhai, its just a sad world we live in. But dont let that get you down, this world is not where you will spend your life, because life is coming. It starts the second you take your last breath. This world is just a game we are forced to play as we drag our existence on this planet. You will like life much more than you like this world, I guarantee it! So delay your sleep till life, and delay your pleasures till life.


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## Toreador (Feb 21, 2005)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
			
		

> Just "banning" or Name change ( harijans) etc wont solve the problem. The UNDERLYING reasons for discrimination are Language/economics/land/power etc. The poor low caste hindus like chumaars, choorreh, scavengers etc WITHOUT land/power/economic clout were SECOND third class muslims in Pakistan where the power is in the hands of the SARDARS.RANDHAWAS JATTS landowners muslims.. These chammars were at the bottom of the hindu heap..and ended up at the bottom of the muslim heap..which JATT SARDAR WEALTHY MUSLIM from PUNJAB is going to allow his daughter to marry the son of a TELI/CHMAAR muslim form Bihar ?? The BIHARI MUJAHIRS should DEMAND equal rights human values..and be an example to the world ???they have been demanding..bloodshed and murders strikes occur in karachi monthly/yearly..mosques get bombed (muslims bombing muslims)
> 
> PAKISTAN was created specifically for MUSLIMS....yet..more than HALF the Muslims never even went to Pakistan..
> The BIHARI/UP Muslims were traeted worse than DIRT in Pakistan which is dominated by PUNJABI MUSLIMS ( there is Political turmoil till today in pakistan caused by these Mohajirs who are THIRD CLASS ciitzens of the Pakistan Muslim republic ??? why this discrimination..arent they all Muslims ??
> ...




i think this is the most sober post i have read so far, and i agree with you wholeheartedly that changing religions or waving a magic wand will not wipe out centuries of oppression the roots of which are lost in history.

but i will say this, the influence of the caste hierachy is different in pakistan than india.  where as in pakistan there is what we can call tribal type of warfare between different castes, in india there is nothing but absolute submission of sudras and vaisyas to the higher castes.  in east punjab more so than india, and in pakistan more so than east punjab, there is social mobility where, depending on the economics involved, someone of a lower caste can proclaim himself a shaikh or qureshi.

i mean seriously, how many sikh bhappe, tarkhan, sainis, labanas and chures do you know that will readily submit themselves to a jatt or a rajput. compared with the rest of india, the caste influence is relatively low in punjab and pakistan. and this IS due to religion.  even the british had observed that caste lines are blurred once you move towards the western half of the subcontinent.  the proof of this is that it isnt brahmins and rajputs who were powerful in these regions but jats and pathans.  jats (with their peculiar "rajput" surnames) are sudras while pathans are classed lower than syeds, shaikhs, and mughals.  but i can honestly tell you, no brahmin will act up against a jatt, and no shaikh wants to cross paths with a pathan.

now that sikhism is just being swallowed up by hinduism, you have to admit, it does help to be a muslim or a chrisitian rather than a hindu where you will never be able to look the higher castes in the eye let alone openly go up in arms against them.

cya


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 1, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das 101% agreees to brother Bashas saying that there should be a Ban on caste system in India.

But the political leaders are themselves castist and for vote bank politics they lack political will.Perhaps when they all are educated they will through away castism.

Then coming to Toredar Ji's.Well Gyani Jiu might be knowing of Punjab area of Pakistan.Das is sorry to say that there locals are hardly MuslimThey are more pagan or hindu.They just do jingosim of Islam to exploit other true Muslims of Pakhtoons or Baluchs.

But this thing Das has to agree by Toredar Ji that if Chritianity or Islam is practiaclly followed by folllwoers then there should not be any caste in them.But preachers in jeal of getting neo converts can converts Balck sheeps who bring Pagan castism or racialism in them.This is ture in all over the world.In Fact in India there is is caste based or Tribe based reservations for Muslims and Christians also.Some Chritisnas are even demanding reservations for 'dalit' Christian.Dalit means trampled but how can a person be trampled who has saviour like Jesus.

They are all ploy of native pagans to let Islam and Chrsitianty be divided so that it does not become strong.

In Fact Vedas ,Vedanta and Gita are also more in tune with Chrsitinaity,Islam or Gurmat then what Hindus do in life regarding Caste as these holy books to are Anti Caste.Well we have many educated Hindus also who want to eradicate caste.

Coming Back to Sikhs if they are getting absorbed in Hinduism.My freind you are wrong as Das himself if Hindu converted to Sikhism and oour number are rather increaseing.

Yes in Punjab there is a fall in numbers of Sikhs but in Hindi Area things are differnat.
Why is it so?

Well our missioanries in Punjab are definsive and themselves are unaware of Gurmat.

They hate Hindus while they must have hated misinterpetations of scriptures revered by Hindus.

They are defensive and hense racial that only Sikhs from Sikh family must reamin Sikh and do not attempt to convert outsider or non belivers so they are hardly missioanriers.

In Fact they spend more time to condem other religeons openly so that person from other religeon start to hate them and do not turn up at all.Guru Mahraj and Missioarys established by them rahter used the scriptures of thiers own religeons to tell them that what actualy your faith says realy happens in Sikhism.

But these missioamaries themselves do not live practical life of Sikhs.

This is only type of missioary who spend most of there time to condem thier own scriptures other then one and that interpetation of that one scripture is not done correctly by them.

Lastly they aRE rather afraid to have a new convert even if he/she wants to emrace feeling that this person may dilute Sikhism.But in futre you will se out side Punjab in Bihar,MP,UP,Chhatishgarh,Ap,Mahrashtra among other palces slowly Sikhs will become Majority and that also by those Sikhs who do not hate Hindus and these neo converts will rahter be an asset for Hindus.

There was a time when Dr Ambedkar Sahib wanted to Be A Sikh with more then 80000000 follwers but Jat loby due thier Pagan castist rituals said that we can not give control of our Darbar Sahib or fund to untoouchables.Had they be Sikh then then Such a stron Sikh population was more then suffisent to let Pakistan be Made.

Anyway in future there will be more and more Sikhs from all types of Races.And they are and will be seeking God and not funds and let Punjabis or Jatts take money.We need Sikhi and that is the best welth for us.

Let them be definsve and racial to let Sikhi remain to Punjabi families.

Guru tells us to Wand Chhako or eat after sharing with Hungery.This will mean that it is our duty to share the name of Akal with those who are spritualy hungery.

So let crrupt ,racial present day Masand who are hardly missioanryes but are those who hate honest person and Decalre Gem Like S Gurbax Singh Ji as Tankhaya,Let such anti Guramat who fight for chair or fund go to place they desrve(Das is not using Hell as in Panth Hell does not exist).

Das is happy that In Punjabi families due to AKJ,Damdami Taksal or People like Kala Afghana Sahib Panth will survive and floursih.

And out side Punjab due to effrosts of Baba Virsa Singh Ji,Yogi Bhajan,Nirmalas,Udaseens and other Sanatan Sikhs Panth will be always in high spirit and Chardi Kala.

We could say in the language of Niuhngs that Khot Nikal Raha Hai,Unworthy people in the grab of Sikhs are getting out.Good thing for us.Das himself as a new convert knows that Panth sees that neo convert be of high quality than with high but useless quality unlike many other contemporary faiths.


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## MINHAZ ALI (May 18, 2005)

it is repeatedly  told by christians that they are more in number. but u should not forget that islam is tough religion and spreadding it is tougher
and spreadding christianity is very easy task.all u have eo beleive that jesus died for u. this is how christianity is spread due to its easyness. and christianity did not spread all over the world but  christians spread all over the world. christianity was spread to europe through sword and then european  went to america and australia and africa.They passed their religion to some part of africa by giving them bribe and threats.In christianity nudity,alcohol is allowed and fating ,prostartion and charity is not mandatory. So it is not great if christianity was accepted by some europeans and africans. u take case of cat steven who become yousuf islam. he had everything money,fame and women. but after he selected islam he had to abolish those immoral things. this is called sacrifice.God want to see if we can give our desires for him or not.This is islam. islam does not bribe people. if u want heaven then pay the price. some ones death on the cross wont give u heaven.

this is reply for thoses christians who lie islam is spread by sword. if people want ti know how christianity was spread into europe they can visit www.jesusneverexisted.com. well i can give blue print. first christianity was distorted and made easy to appeal pagans of europe.then pagan customs were inserted to book of jesus to attract pagans. theses impious things were done by paul and his followers and attributed their lies to jesus.  year 306 is new era of christianity as roman king constantine accepted christianity as state religion though he did not accept it immediately. he supported christianity and forced people to accept it but he accepted it only at his death bed.he wanted a single religion to unite eastern and wester empires of him. then he ordered to kill unitarian christians whose leader was bishop arius. after that pagans were tortured. successors of that king forced christianity on pagans. they are also presented with gifts. then Charemagne forced christianity on anglo saxon people. any one dared to go back to his pagan religion was executed. queen isabella ordered to kil muslims and jews of spain for rejecting christianity. then christian nations like france and spain had issued a decree that non christians must leave their nation. many jews embraced christianity to live in those nations.then they tried to force their religion on red indians,mexicans and aztec people but to no avail. miilions of red indians were killed for rejecting christianity. jews were persecuted by christians in europe for many centuries and now theses christians accuse islam of being spread by sword.


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## sikhway (Jun 8, 2005)

Sat sri akal,
Please don't think quantity can justify for righteousness.
Quality surely can. One of my complaints about democracy is is that, democracy is, "When 51 jackals tell 51 lions to shut up and sit in the corner. Sikhs are about quality--sawa lakh say ek larhaoon! ---One khalas to fight 125000.
Anyhow I think most influential person on The Earth so far was Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji.  Taht's is my unbiased view. I am a major History student so I know a bit about being unbiased. Okay that was ego roaring to coem out now my support for for my thesis.
{1] A muslim writer of 19th century wrote:
"Na kahoon abh ki!                     
Na kahoon Tabh ki!
Ughar na hotay Gobing Singh,
To sunnat hoti sabh Ki" 
Meaning:
 " I am not talking about now and then but all I can say is that if ther were NO Guru Gobind Singh Ji then all of India would be cicumcized." 
Please don't get angry--Just read on!
[1] Guru Gobind Singh was only possible because Guru Nanak Sahib Ji came and laid down the foundation of Sikhi.
[2] Think of this-Only oppositon Muslims got in INdia between 1000 AD and 1800's were the SIKHS.
[3] Okay Now think of 1 billion Muslims in India instead of Hindus , Sikhs, Budhhists!

NOW answer this:
Do you tihnk it would have been possible for USA or anyone else to go to Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. if ALL of India was MUSLIM now?
NO WAY!
From MOngolia to MOrocco an unbeatable belt with no problems and with all the brains from INdia-Including nuclear bombs and manpower.

A very sobering thoguht indeed.
MAybe even Europe would have fallen by now!
Or even China too. WHat Gurus did was incredible.
I beleiev that if sikhs did nOT come along at that time then ALL of the world would have been Muslim.
People who ignore that fact really don't know horse manure about History.
All Shall hail To Guru Nanak Sahib Ji:
js singh


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## Arvind (Jun 8, 2005)

headway,

Welcome to SPN forums, and thanks for sharing your feelings. 

Regards, Arvind.


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## Toreador (Jun 20, 2005)

headway said:
			
		

> Sat sri akal,
> Please don't think quantity can justify for righteousness.
> Quality surely can. One of my complaints about democracy is is that, democracy is, "When 51 jackals tell 51 lions to shut up and sit in the corner. Sikhs are about quality--sawa lakh say ek larhaoon! ---One khalas to fight 125000.
> Anyhow I think most influential person on The Earth so far was Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji.  Taht's is my unbiased view. I am a major History student so I know a bit about being unbiased. Okay that was ego roaring to coem out now my support for for my thesis.
> ...




this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read.  i dont know what hindu spoon-fed propaganda you've read but i'll tell you that it was the rajputs (whom you sikhs are actually modelled after) who were the opposition to "islam" as you say.  this so-called opposition began with prithviraj chahuhan's failed attempts to assassinate moinuddin chisti of ajmer and it idealogically continues to this day.   

regardless the biggest opposition to the invading turkomen tribes were the pathans who incidentally were also the biggest headache for babur and subsequent mughals.  go read your history again buddy.  pathans along with most other tribes of north-west india converted to islam under sufi saints NOT by force.  and they converted from BUDDHISM as archaeological evidence clearly points out and NOT your beloved hinduism.   so you can keep your non-sensical jingoistic jargon to yourself and stop being such a hindu sycophant.

and if you sikhs hate muslims so much then why literally STEAL the concept of langar, degh, and sama (kirtan) from us.  and oh yea, bang up job of protecting caste ridden india and lower castes (which comprise majority of indian and bengali muslim converts) from islam.  i can just see how regretful they are of being "forced" into becoming muslims.



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> [3] Okay Now think of 1 billion Muslims in India instead of Hindus , Sikhs, Budhhists!QUOTE]
> 
> check your history again.  hinduism under shankracharya wiped out buddhism from greater india NOT islam.  seriously, what history books are you reading??


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## sikhway (Jun 21, 2005)

*


			
				Toreador said:
			
		


			this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. i don't know what hindu spoon-fed propaganda you've read but i'll tell you that it was the rajputs (whom you Sikhs are actually modeled after) who were the opposition to "Islam" as you say. this so-called opposition began with prithviraj chahuhan's failed attempts to assassinate moinuddin chisti of ajmer and it ideologically continues to this day.
		
Click to expand...

*


			
				Toreador said:
			
		

> *regardless the biggest opposition to the invading turkomen tribes were the pathans who incidentally were also the biggest headache for babur and subsequent mughals. go read your history again buddy. pathans along with most other tribes of north-west India converted to Islam under Sufi saints NOT by force. and they converted from BUDDHISM as archaeological evidence clearly points out and NOT your beloved Hinduism. so you can keep your non-sensical jingoistic jargon to yourself and stop being such a hindu sycophant.*
> 
> *and if you Sikhs hate Muslims so much then why literally STEAL the concept of langar, degh, and sama (kirtan) from us. and oh yea, bang up job of protecting caste ridden India and lower castes (which comprise majority of Indian and Bengali Muslim converts) from Islam. i can just see how regretful they are of being "forced" into becoming Muslims.*
> 
> ...


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## Toreador (Jun 22, 2005)

*headway,*

*your reply is full of typical hindu propaganda so let me "enlighten" you with a little something i like to call the TRUTH.*

<<<<<[2]i dont know what hindu spoon-fed propaganda you've read but i'll tell you that it was the rajputs (whom you sikhs are actually modelled after) who were the opposition to "islam" as you say. this so-called opposition began with prithviraj chahuhan's failed attempts to assassinate moinuddin chisti of ajmer and it idealogically continues to this day. 
[2] 
[a] Hindu propaganda and I don't mix-Sorry you are barking up the wrong tree.
[b Chauhan Failed--period -Sikhs succeeded. THEY tried and whipmpered.
[c] Two big clans of Rajputs existed-History states that. They both took different road when defeated. One from Jaipur started marrying their daughters to Moghal Kings--How convenient!
The others from further west [kin to Jaipurias] put all women chidlren to fire inside the fort. At least soem guts shown.
Sikhs fought for those daughters all the way to kabul. Millions of girls were sold in Baghdad, Basra and Kabul markets. We have even these in our songs that womne ar etaken away to Basra and beloved weep.>>>>>>>

*oh please! save this garbage for someone else. first of all, millions of girls are still sold in markets all over india and pakistan. secondly, don't even try to tell me that high caste hindus and sikhs alike have nothing to do with the abuse of low caste peoples of the subcontinent (including their women). have you heard of the case of one phoolan devi? *

*and far as rajputs are concerned, last i checked the last name "singh" is over a millenia old and sikh "singh" has only been around 1699. do the math. sikhs ARE modelled after rajputs. you can't possibly deny it.*

<<<<<[3] regardless the biggest opposition to the invading turkomen tribes were the pathans who incidentally were also the biggest headache for babur and subsequent mughals. go read your history again buddy. 
[3] I guess Gaznavi [from City of Gazni] and other people coem to mind when i think of it. If Pathhans had done their job then Inida would have been free from Muslims! 
I guess soemhow either Pathhans complied or were defeated and joined the looters. Iranian And Turkish coffers are filled with Inidian treasures to date--Pea{censored} Throne comes to mind.>>>>>

*i think you need a lesson on real history. pathans DID fight back the turks. thats why there are very few left in afghanistan. proof for example, both ghor and ghazni are once again pashtun dominated. *

*as far as pathan bravery is concerned, last i checked it was the sultan lodhi who kept genghis khan's armies out of india. and it was again sher shah suri of bihar who, for a brief period at least, ended mughal reign in india. even tipu sultan was an orakzai pashtun. i don't hear of any hindu or sikhs making such claims. the only decent non-muslim warrior nation to arise from there are the gurkhas*

*for centuries, pathans and other sufi/shia peoples of northwest indian frontier were constantly oppressed by mughals who sent their rajput cronnies to suppress rebellions. they were notorious for wiping out entire villages but each time these "singhs" were sent packing and thus you wont find a single rajput in all of pashtunistan. even hari singh nalwa, the butcher who use to hang muslims every day from the mahabat mosque in peshawar, was sent to the next "janam" at jamrud. this is no lie, my brother. there are NO sikhs or punjabis in pathan tribal areas even though pathans are spread all over india. *

*on a side note, there is a sizeable sikh community in cities of afghanistan. but their loyalty is to their watan and afghanyat, and i reckon they would spit on hindu sycophants and liars like yourself.*

<<<<<[4] AHAHHAHAHAAH!
Muslim conversions Peaceful? Have I missed out on 1000 years of rape, pillage, murder? The wrod 'Assasin' came from Islamic culture and peole were called Hashishans-go read your history. It was a PBS special too.
Budhhidm conversions peasceful? Don't make me laugh. Why not try peaceful methods now in Israel, IRaq, Iran, Pakistan, USA Europe?
If these fanatics could do stuff liek 9-11 NOW, imagine what they accomplished 100 years ago.
Peacefull muslims in Iran wiped out Zorostrians like that too-Another TV special. Bye the way last 500000 or so Zorostrians survive in India but not a single on in Iran beacuse it was too peaceful for their liking and they left. These Zorostrians don't understand peace I guess. 
BY the way Sikhism believes conversions without force thast why so few of us. Islam says convert or be killed. Guru Gobind Singh's 7 and 9 year old dangerous {censored} sons come to mind! December 1605 they were murdered by a peaceful muslim ruler fo sarhind. They were to be spared and married off to princesses if they had accepted Islam. Alas! Two little children had more guts then Jaipuri Rajputs and deceided to die instead.>>>>>

*[Admin Cut: Everybody, please avoid profanity, i am sure you can do much better than this   ] no doubt you know no irani whatsover otherwise you'll know that iran still has a sizeable zorasterian population. the entire country celebrates navroz, the zoroastrian new year, with rituals that go back thousands of years. so please, don't say stuff unless you actually know anything about anything.*

*btw... your beloved guru wouldnt even be alive if it wasnt for ghani khan and nabi khan. yes, i'm sure you've heard how his "brave" sikhs ran away like a bunch of girls and mian mir had to dispatch his pathan followers to save gobind singh. again, if your guru had such a {censored}fit about islam then why is the sword of hazrat ali shown off at anandpur sahib? (which was given to him by the mughal emperor... so much for making peace with the guys who killed his children) some guru you have.*

*again i have to keep reminding you about rajputs. guru hargobind of yours was locked up in gwalior. when he got out with his band of rajput princes, it was after this that you sikhs actually became a real army. you were a joke before that and you have been a joke ever since you sold your land and arms to the british.*

*as far as conversions go. baba farid shakar ganj himself converted 17 jat tribes to islam. and he was a fakir. the randhawa jats are in fact descendants of pir biddho. then there are naqshbandis and qadiris who converted afghans. those are sufi tariqas, my misguided hindu friend. moinuddin chisti himself converted thousands of hindus. then there is the case of baba madho lal hussein of lahore and his duel with hindu sadhus.*

*i think you're just jealous because no one wants to join a fake wannabee-sufi cult like religion of yours where you take sufi rituals/concepts and stylize them with hindu names and voila!! a separate "religion"  *

<<<<<[7] You have proven that not only are you ignorant of Indian History from a neutral point of view you aslo don't know beans about Indian Geography.
The budhhists largely killed by Shankracharya were around UP to Lahore not from Afghanistan. Those were 'peacefully' removed from there like the Afghanistani 'peaceful Removal of Budhha Statues.>>>>>

*huh, are you telling me it was HINDUS who made those statues in afghanistan in the first place?? [Admin Cut: Everybody, please avoid profanity] pathans have been there since time immemorial. even herodotus (alexander's scribe) recounts them being native to afghanistan. the destruction of the bamiyan statues was a tragedy but it is a targedy for afghan culture NOT a bunch of animal worshipping hindus. there are still plenty of buddhist temples and artifacts that taliban didn't touch. the taliban ofcourse is paki-punjabi sponsered. you know, the trash we muslims ended up with when you hindus and sikhs decided to dump your religions in 1947.*

<<<<<[1] I dunno! Is it me or some other people have a problem with the word PEACEFUL and the way people have used it for last 1400 years?
[2] If peaceful methods are so popular with Islamic World then how come not asingle democratic Muslim country exists?
[3] What God given right does any religion have to kill innocents? 9-11, Sikhs killing Hindus, or HIndus killing muslims are sick examples of great religions.>>>>>

*hmmm... i thought iran just had elections. then there is malaysia. also nigeria. morroco. but what do you care. at least muslims have countries of their own. they don't go around jumping bandwagons like your people. who suck up to india when they're in india, then all of a sudden grow a backbone when they come to the west and "demand" khalistan. :rofl!!: *

<<<<<[5] and if you sikhs hate muslims so much then why literally STEAL the concept of langar, degh, and sama (kirtan) from us. and oh yea,
[5] Sorry pal yuo are completely wrong- I don't hate Islam or Mohhammed Sahib Ji [PBUH} and His message but what people did with his message and the way they used it.>>>>>

*you have been anti-muslim in your entire post and now you're going to tell me you don't hate islam??? people like you blame all the evils of your society on muslims. i can't stand nonsense like "muslims killed us for a 1000 years." no, they didn't. you were killing yourselves for a thousand years. ghaznvi's armies were filled with non-muslim jats and afghans. mughal armies were practically ALL rajput. even ranjit singh's punjabi army wasn't completely sikh.*
*rajputs robbed each other's temples and abducted women. ashoka was a genocidal maniac plus his harem exceeded that of akbar's. the marathas pillaged rajputs and their women in rajasthan unabated for almost a century. it was chauhan's own kin and blood of kanauj who turned him over to ghori. hell, genghis khan, hitler, stalin, etc. these weren't muslims. khan was a buddhist and hitler was a vegetarian for god's sakes. man you hindus (and their self-styled protectors: sikhs) really need to snap out of it. *

*in the end, i'll leave you with this. i had read that guru gobind singh built masjids, he was awarded the sword of hazrat ali by bahadur shah, and guru nanak had a chola with quran inscribed all over it. all of these are preserved to this day so don't try to deny it. but i challenge any hindu and sikh out there to find me any artifact from the gurus' that links any of them to hinduism or brahmanism. find me anything. any mandir they might have built? any statues of gods/goddesses? if you sikhs can't find anything then stop taking out your frustrations on islam and muslims because you are misrepresenting your own religion by swallowing the propaganda of arya samaj (whose swami dayanand was killed by a muslim but thats another story).*

*have a nice day*


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## sikhway (Jun 24, 2005)

*[1] your reply is full of typical Hindu propaganda so let me "enlighten" you with a little something i like to call the TRUTH.*
[1] If one believes in dark side then that one can't enlighten. Sorry!
The truth is trampled on by people when they fight Allah. Allah makes us one way and we change Allah's man. All are born Sikh-with hair and all and body parts. We have ego and challenge Allah that we can make humans better than you. OF course it is done under guise of being believers. Allah would not give us things if he wanted us to take them off. Allah does NOT make mistakes. Therefore we can lie to make masses follow us. That is the TRUTH sir.


*[2] oh please! save this garbage for someone else. *
[2] Funny that Truth should sound garbage to you. I took you as an intellect.

*[3] first of all, millions of girls are still sold in markets all over India and Pakistan.*
[3] Interesting! But by whom? AHA! Mostly Muslims. Sorry. I remember when a 14 year old was sold to an Arabian Sheikh and girl started to cry at airport and police jumped in. A religious man had sanctioned that mot a pimp.
It was all over newspapers about 8 years ago.:whisling:

*[4]secondly, don't even try to tell me that high caste Hindus and Sikhs alike have nothing to do with the abuse of low caste peoples of the subcontinent (including their women). have you heard of the case of one phoolan devi? *
[4] Sorry it has nothing to do with Sikhs! But lately I have heard of village in Pakistan where some MAI gt raped by a gang which was sanctioned by chief and shariat--ouch:whisling:

*[5]and far as rajputs are concerned, last i checked the last name "Singh" is over a millenia old and Sikh "Singh" has only been around 1699. do the math. Sikhs ARE modeled after rajputs. you can't possibly deny it.*
[5]We are as modeled after rajputs as Muslims are after Jews.:whisling:



*[6]for centuries, pathans and other Sufi/Shia peoples of northwest Indian frontier were constantly oppressed by mughals who sent their rajput cronies to suppress rebellions. they were notorious for wiping out entire villages but each time these "Singhs" were sent packing and thus you wont find a single rajput in all of Pashtunistan. even hari Singh Nalwa, the butcher who use to hang Muslims every day from the Mahabat mosque in Peshawar, was sent to the next "janam" at jamrud.*
[6] Pathans still tell their children to go to sleep Nalwa is coming! A history lesson. One's hero is another's villain--Like Muslims for 9-11 victims are villains but for you they are heroes.:whisling: 


*[7] btw... your beloved guru wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for Ghani khan and Nabi khan. why is the sword of Hazrat Ali shown off at Anandpur sahib? (which was given to him by the mughal emperor... so much for making peace with the guys who killed his children) some guru you have.*
[7] Bingo!! GOOD Muslims loved Gurus. Cherished them -- like mian Mir Sahib. They knew they are one with God and Prophets!

*[8]again i have to keep reminding you about rajputs. guru hargobind of yours was locked up in Gwalior. when he got out with his band of rajput princes, it was after this that you Sikhs actually became a real army. *
[8] Well you need a lesson in history too. First five Gurus walked the path of Saints and the last five Saint soldiers--complete path. Of course I cant expect you to know that.

*[9]as far as conversions go. Baba Farid Shakar Ganj himself converted 17 Jatt tribes to Islam. and he was a fakir. the randhawa jats are in fact descendants of pir biddho. then there are naqshbandis and qadiris who converted afghans. those are Sufi tariqas, my misguided Hindu friend. moinuddin chisti himself converted thousands of Hindus. then there is the case of baba madho lal hussein of Lahore and his duel with Hindu sadhus.*
*[9] *Yupp Baba Farid was ONE GOD LOVER- A SIKH MORALITY LOVED BY GURUS> SUFIS HATED ISLAM! Sorry! That's a fact.

*[10] i think you're just jealous because no one wants to join a fake wannabee-Sufi cult like religion of yours where you take Sufi rituals/concepts and stylize them with Hindu names and voilà!! a separate "religion" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*
[10] Jealous us? Jealous of being most despised religion in the world like Islam. No way! Not when USA crumbled Afghanistan or talibstan and Iraq. NOW Iran is next! Why would I be jealous of shit kicking.

*[11]huh, are you telling me it was HINDUS who made those statues in Afghanistan in the first place?? are you insane??? pathans have been there since time immemorial. even Herodotus (Alexander's scribe) recounts them being native to Afghanistan. the destruction of the bamiyan statues was a tragedy but it is a tragedy for afghan culture NOT a bunch of animal worshiping Hindus. there are still plenty of Buddhist temples and artifacts that taliban didn't touch. the taliban ofcourse is paki-punjabi sponsored.*
[11] Yeah and Dalai Lama is going there next according to your peaceful ways. Give me a break!  

*[12]hmmm... i thought Iran just had elections. then there is Malaysia. also Nigeria. Morocco.*
[12]Ahahhahahhahahahhaaaaa! Elections in Iran! OMG - All candidates picked by ayatollah!oh yeah:

*[13] but what do you care. at least Muslims have countries of their own. they don't go around jumping bandwagons like your people. who suck up to India when they're in India, then all of a sudden grow a backbone when they come to the west and "demand" khalistan.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*
[13]At least when our Gurdwara goes down so does Gandhi. You guys? AHhAHAHAHA Masjid goes down and still waiting for Mohammad to come on his blue donkey! Give me a break. Who is brave?


*[14]in the end, i'll leave you with this. i had read that guru gobind Singh built masjids, he was awarded the sword of Hazrat Ali by bahadur shah, and guru nanak had a chola with Koran inscribed all over it. all of these are preserved to this day so don't try to deny it. but i challenge any Hindu and Sikh out there to find me any artifact from the gurus' that links any of them to Hinduism or Brahmanism. find me anything. any mandir they might have built? *
*[14]* Thank you very much for this. Show me tolerance Islam shows of any other religion. When Gurus give Guru Ki Masjid to Muslims and very same masjid was renovated and handed to a maulvi from Amritsar two years ago what were Muslims doing? Breaking 10000 Hindu temples. It says in Tvarikh -record book of Muslim king-I have it. It shows all atrocities done in Allah's honour. READ your own history-primary sources--not something written by mullahs last year.


*have a nice day*


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## sikhway (Jun 25, 2005)

*[ADDONS] btw... your beloved guru wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for Ghani khan and Nabi khan. why is the sword of Hazrat Ali shown off at Anandpur sahib? (which was given to him by the mughal emperor... so much for making peace with the guys who killed his children) some guru you have.*
 [7] Bingo!! GOOD Muslims loved Gurus. Cherished them -- like mian Mir  Sahib. They knew they are one with God and Prophets!

When very same Guru was born in Patna Sahib a muslim Faqir faced Patna sahib, not mecca, to do namaj. IT i sa historical fact. I do know my history.

Yes Muslims loved them too. Goos muslims!
What a man! He forgave idiots who killed his sons!
Show me signs of mersy like that. Guru is Mercyful.
Something like that Islam can't teach in millions of years.
He also said, " So what if for are dead! It si due to them that 1000's live.""
A real martyrdom!


*[ADDONS]again i have to keep reminding you about rajputs. guru hargobind of yours was locked up in Gwalior. when he got out with his band of rajput princes, it was after this that you Sikhs actually became a real army. *
 [8] Well you need a lesson in  history too. First five Gurus walked the path of   Saints and the last five   Saint  soldiers--complete path. Of course I cant expect you to know that.

Imagine 450 years ago a man is in prison and when King of delhi relaizes his mistake, he wants to release him But Guru said NO. NOt until jail conditons are improved and soem innocents get to leave wit h me. He was not slefish . He fought for opressed. Show me where Islam teaches to fight fro innocents from other religions.                     :whisling: EXACTLY!

NObody knows about Sikh morals! What do yuo kow of Sikhism . 
When all muslims were butchered and klicked out of Punjab and Hindu and Muslims kicked out of Pakistan--One district--Maler Kotla-- nobody touched a muslim?
WHy was that? Becasue their head told Nabob of Sarhind NOT to kill Guru's children and fight the man himslef. Dont do a cowardly act. He didnot listen but Guru was listening. Guru the Merciful said tyo his Sikhs that malerkotla Muslims are honest and Allah loving. I dont wnat them ever tosuffer. I 1947 Sikhs encirceld Malerkotal and told ppl not to touch them. NOBODY dared to. It is due to sikh mercy that 10000's of the live there. 
I love them. We love them. Ppl like you want them kicked out. We know they are not like you.
So. BE careful about truth.
You dont know truth. You kow fanatacism but not truth.

Okay.
:ice:

YES Guru Nanak Sahib Ji is the Man of Second Millenium. It is due to God's mercy through him that 600 million hindus live today. I dont car ewhat hindus do to us or anyone else. They will reap what they sow!
BUT is was Guru Nanak Sahib Ji who save d them and due to that he is da best of second Milleinium. First Millenium-Jesus Christ.
Influential could mean bad also. In that sense Mohhamed Is pretty Influential for secodn half of first millenium. He started teh BORG, type machine which wil assimilate or try to assimilate the whole universe.
Guru ji like variety. To him a garden has many dif colours and weed is a flower. To islam the garden is made of one flower of same colour. All others a weed to be killed or coloured.
What a big difference!


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## ballym (May 21, 2006)

hello All, with respect to all seniors, It is pointless ( and may be life less  )to discuss this matter with a MUSLIM... since history has proven that any sort of debate or discussion may have disastrous results.they come to you start talking and then....


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## max314 (May 29, 2006)

*Socrates*

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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 24, 2008)

welcome back Max

its been a while we saw you here


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> welcome back Max
> 
> its been a while we saw you here






This thread is bumped by someone


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## dalsingh (Dec 24, 2008)

I would say Bill Gates would be a contender for our current times. Most of us are actually using some of his technology to do all this. 

Forgive me if someone already said this, I didn't read the previous posts.


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> This thread is bumped by someone



Kdsji,

Yes, the thread was bumped by someone. Max hasn't posted in a long, long, long time.  I was really confused too.

Merry Christmas !!!!


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