# How To Recognize A Fake Preacher/Pop Up Guru/Fake Baba Etc



## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*The foremost feature:*

*This person generates a feeling of inferiority in others and shamlessly show off his/her own greatness. This person wants you to believe that he/she is the only one who is directly blessed by Guru/God.........................*



*more later*


----------



## Astroboy (Jan 4, 2008)

suno siya kaljugmein kaala 
dhan aur kaale mann honge
chora uchakke nagar setha aur 
prabhu bhakta nirdhan honge 
jo hoga lobhi aur bhogi 
vo jogi kehlaayega


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

jinna kar litta ishq eko noor vaste
ohna disde wich sab de deed yaar de

han firde fer oho gali-gali ban ramte
jinna ho jande noori didaar yaar de

main attey tu vich nahi rehnde fasle
nimaaneyaan hi hunde ne visaal yaar de


----------



## Astroboy (Jan 4, 2008)

Amar Ji,

Beautiful andTouching. I'm going to forward this to a special person. Thanks.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

LOL

i bet you don't have a direct line to ur Yaar...

prolly its some other seeker


----------



## Astroboy (Jan 5, 2008)

The reason why she's special is because she does unconditional sewa to the max in the gurdwara. But I can't be physically close to her.

Kismat De Maare,
Asee Ki Kareeye.
Kismat Pe Kiska Zoar Hai

Muhabbatan sachiya ne
mangda naseebaN kuch aur hai


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

i hope u understand that Yaar is different ...atleast for me


----------



## Astroboy (Jan 5, 2008)

Please explain !!!!


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

YouTube - Bhai Manpreet Singh - Sunn Yaar Humare Sajjan

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Jaithsree on Ang 703 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib 

||Chhant:sun yaar hamaarae sajan eik karo baena(n)theeaa ||
Listen, O my intimate friend - I have just one prayer to make.

this mohan laal piaarae ho firo khoja(n)theeaa ||
I have been wandering around, searching for that enticing, sweet Beloved.

 This dhas piaarae sir dhharee outhaarae eik bhoree dharasan dheejai ||
Whoever leads me to my Beloved - I would cut off my head and offer it to him, even if I were granted the Blessed Vision of His Darshan for just an instant.

nain hamaarae pria ra(n)g ra(n)gaarae eik thil bhee naa dhheereejai ||
My eyes are drenched with the Love of my Beloved; without Him, I do not have even a moment's peace.

prabh sio man leenaa jio jal meenaa chaathrik jivai thisa(n)theeaa ||
My mind is attached to the Lord, like the fish to the water, and the rainbird, thirsty for the raindrops.

jan naanak gur pooraa paaeiaa sagalee thikhaa bujha(n)theeaa ||1||
Servant Nanak has found the Perfect Guru; his thirst is totally quenched. 

||1||yaar vae pria habhae sakheeaa moo kehee n jaeheeaa ||
O intimate friend, my Beloved has all these loving companions; I cannot compare to any of them.

yaar vae hik ddoo(n) hik chaarrai ho kis chithaeheeaa ||
O intimate friend, each of them is more beautiful than the others; who could consider me?

hik dhoo(n) hik chaarrae anik piaarae nith karadhae bhog bilaasaa ||
Each of them is more beautiful than the others; countless are His lovers, constantly enjoying bliss with Him.

thinaa dhaekh man chaao out(h)a(n)dhaa ho kadh paaee gunathaasaa ||
Beholding them, desire wells up in my mind; when will I obtain the Lord, the treasure of virtue?

jinee maiddaa laal reejhaaeiaa ho this aagai man ddae(n)eheeaa ||
I dedicate my mind to those who please and attract my Beloved.

naanak kehai sun bino suhaagan moo dhas ddikhaa pir kaeheeaa ||2||
Says Nanak, hear my prayer, O happy soul-brides; tell me, what does my Husband Lord look like? 

||2||yaar vae pir aapan bhaanaa kishh neesee shha(n)dhaa ||
O intimate friend, my Husband Lord does whatever He pleases; He is not dependent on anyone.

yaar vae thai raaviaa laalan moo dhas dhasa(n)dhaa ||
O intimate friend, you have enjoyed your Beloved; please, tell me about Him.

laalan thai paaeiaa aap gavaaeiaa jai dhhan bhaag mathhaanae ||
They alone find their Beloved, who eradicate self-conceit; such is the good destiny written on their foreheads.

baa(n)h pakarr t(h)aakur ho ghidhhee gun avagan n pashhaanae ||
Taking me by the arm, the Lord and Master has made me His own; He has not considered my merits or demerits.

gun haar thai paaeiaa ra(n)g laal banaaeiaa this habho kishh suha(n)dhaa ||
She, whom You have adorned with the necklace of virtue, and dyed in the deep crimson color of His Love - everything looks beautiful on her.

jan naanak dhha(n)n suhaagan saaee jis sa(n)g bhathaar vasa(n)dhaa ||3||
O servant Nanak, blessed is that happy soul-bride, who dwells with her Husband Lord. 

||3||yaar vae nith sukh sukhaedhee saa mai paaee ||
O intimate friend, I have found that peace which I sought.

var lorreedhaa aaeiaa vajee vaadhhaaee ||
My sought-after Husband Lord has come home, and now, congratulations are pouring in.

mehaa ma(n)gal rehas thheeaa pir dhaeiaal sadh nav ra(n)geeaa ||
Great joy and happiness welled up, when my Husband Lord, of ever-fresh beauty, showed mercy to me.

vadd bhaag paaeiaa gur milaaeiaa saadhh kai sathasa(n)geeaa ||
By great good fortune, I have found Him; the Guru has united me with Him, through the Saadh Sangat, the True Congregation of the Holy.

aasaa manasaa sagal pooree pria a(n)k a(n)k milaaee ||
My hopes and desires have all been fulfilled; my Beloved Husband Lord has hugged me close in His embrace.

binava(n)th naanak sukh sukhaedhee saa mai gur mil paaee ||4||1||
Prays Nanak, I have found that peace which I sought, meeting with the Guru. ||4||1||



More:

YouTube - Abida Parveen Sings Bulleh Shah

YouTube - Meda Ishq vee tu - Abida Parveen


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

although you are free to use these lines i composed in any sense... its perspective you see..


----------



## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

> jinna kar litta ishq eko noor vaste
> ohna disde wich sab de deed yaar de
> 
> han firde fer oho gali-gali ban ramte
> ...


 
*beautiful....*

*jis ne didaar keeta uhi jaan sakda........*


*Jithey jaae bahay mera satguru soee thaan suhavaa raam raajay..........*


----------



## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*Another feature of pakhandies:*


*The person  represents himself to be either equal or superior to Guru Ji. This person redefines Gurbani by manipulating the language and words, in other words: makes an attempt to attack/compromise the truth, (Sikh philosophy). …………………….Will take one example of some failure and will impose it on the whole humanity(or at least on the whole community).*

*more later*


----------



## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*THE BEST ONE FOR TODAY:*


*fake baba/fake preacher/cult leader or follower is always desperate to trick you into joining his/her group.* 


*anhonde jhagre gal paaee phirdaa.............*

*Dhan Dhan Guru Ji da Hukam:*

*ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਓਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਕੂੜੋ ਕਰਿ ਬੁਝੈ ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਝਗੜੇ ਦਯਿ ਓਸ ਦੈ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥*




*more later..*

*me neech humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


----------



## Astroboy (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks. It's reminding me to be strong and have the ultimate goal in mind. 

I remember forwarding the same two videos to someone else in another fake baba forum in SPN.

What goes around, comes around.

Santokh


----------



## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*about fake babas:*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji De Panaa # 1377:*
*(more mataphoric talk)........*

kbIr jau quih swD iprMm kI pwky syqI Kylu ] (1377-10, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
kwcI srsauN pyil kY nw Kil BeI n qylu ]240] (1377-11, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl. ||240||
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. ||240||
FUMFq folih AMD giq Aru cInq nwhI sMq ] (1377-11, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
kih nwmw ikau pweIAY ibnu Bgqhu BgvMqu ]241] (1377-12, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. ||241||
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee? ||241||
hir so hIrw Cwif kY krih Awn kI Aws ] (1377-12, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
Forsaking the Diamond of the Lord, the mortals put their hopes in another.
qy nr dojk jwihgy siq BwKY rivdws ]242] (1377-13, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. ||242||
Those people shall go to hell; Ravi Daas speaks the Truth. ||242||



*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj Sache Paatshah blessed us with Dhan Dhan Gurbani-'THE DIAMOND' RESPECT IT, LIVE IT TRUTHFULLY, THIS WILL BE THE TRUE SERVICE TOWARDS HIM...............*


*more later*


----------



## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

isK kry kir sbdu n cInY lµptu hY bwjwrI ] (1013-8, mwrU, mÚ 1)
sikh karay kar sabad na cheenai lampat hai baajaaree.
He teaches and preaches, but does not contemplate the Shabad; he is bought and sold on the street.


----------



## Astroboy (Jan 6, 2008)

Surinder Ji,

I was looking for the full shabad whereas I only remember one line as follows:-

Har Ke Sant Na Akhiye,
Banares Ke Thug


----------



## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

i know this one wait..........


----------



## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

Awsw ] (476-1)
aasaa.
Aasaa:
gj swFy qY qY DoqIAw iqhry pwiein qg ] (476-1, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
gaj saadhay tai tai Dhotee-aa tihray paa-in tag.
They wear loin cloths, three and a half yards long, and triple-wound sacred threads.
glI ijn@w jpmwlIAw loty hiQ inbg ] (476-1, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
galee jinHaa japmaalee-aa lotay hath nibag.
They have rosaries around their necks, and they carry glittering jugs in their hands.
*Eie hir ky sMq n AwKIAih bwnwris ky Tg ]1] *(476-2, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
o-ay har kay sant na aakhee-ahi baanaaras kay thag. ||1||
They are not called Saints of the Lord - they are thugs of Benares. ||1||
AYsy sMq n mo kau Bwvih ] (476-2, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
aisay sant na mo ka-o bhaaveh.
Such 'saints' are not pleasing to me;
fwlw isau pyfw gtkwvih ]1] rhwau ] (476-2, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
daalaa si-o paydaa gatkaavahi. ||1|| rahaa-o.
they eat the trees along with the branches. ||1||Pause||
bwsn mWij crwvih aUpir kwTI Doie jlwvih ] (476-3, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
baasan maaNj charaaveh oopar kaathee Dho-ay jalaaveh.
They wash their pots and pans before putting them on the stove, and they wash the wood before lighting it.
bsuDw Koid krih duie cUly@ swry mwxs Kwvih ]2] (476-3, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
basuDhaa khod karahi du-ay choolHay saaray maanas khaaveh. ||2||
They dig up the earth and make two fireplaces, but they eat the whole person! ||2||
Eie pwpI sdw iPrih AprwDI muKhu Aprs khwvih ] (476-4, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
o-ay paapee sadaa fireh apraaDhee mukhahu apras kahaaveh.
Those sinners continually wander in evil deeds, while they call themselves touch-nothing saints.
sdw sdw iPrih AiBmwnI sgl kutMb fubwvih ]3] (476-5, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
sadaa sadaa fireh abhimaanee sagal kutamb dubaaveh. ||3||
They wander around forever and ever in their self-conceit, and all their families are drowned. ||3||
ijqu ko lwieAw iqq hI lwgw qYsy krm kmwvY ] (476-5, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
jit ko laa-i-aa tit hee laagaa taisay karam kamaavai.
He is attached to that, to which the Lord has attached him, and he acts accordingly.
khu kbIr ijsu siqguru BytY punrip jnim n AwvY ]4]2] (476-6, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
kaho kabeer jis satgur bhaytai punrap janam na aavai. ||4||2||
Says Kabeer, one who meets the True Guru, is not reincarnated again. ||4||2||


----------



## singh is king (Jan 7, 2008)

And how to recognise true baba?


----------



## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*'Singh is King'*

*do we still need a sign of recognition for Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji- THE TRUE SAINT?*

*anyways Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib has given a lot of clues about a true Saint and Saint's Bani being the ultimate truth as well.* 

*forgive me please*


----------



## singh is king (Jan 7, 2008)

Surinder Kaur Cheema Ji

Thats what I wanted to say.


----------



## SSMDCX (Jan 25, 2008)

The One Who Has Achieved The Param Padvi Is Not Fake - Everything Else Is Fake.

A Fake Can't Recognize Another Fake, Only The One Who Has Achieved Param Padvi Knows The Truth.

Slandering Or Promoting Slandering Is Not Gurmat.

Anybody Can Quote Gurbani - But There Is One In Tens Of Millions Who Becomes What Gurbani Says - And Such A Soul Is Not Fake - Everything Else In This World Is Fake. Only The One Who Has Puran Jyot Parkash In His Hirda Is Not Fake, Everything Else Is Fake, Only The One Who Is One With Akal Purakh Is Not Fake, Everybody Else Is Fake.


----------



## Pyramid (Jan 25, 2008)

SSMDCX Ji,

I am not sure with what purpose in mind you have posted your above comments, I read your comments under the other Fake Baba Thread too. You seem like discouraging others from talking about these fake Babas- Banarsi Thugs. It is like an anouncement you are making: 'you dont know the reality, they are not fake'.   DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THEM? DO YOU GURANTEE THEY ARE ALL PARMPADVI BIRAAJMAAN?

Guru Sahib Guru Gobing Singh Ji passed on Gurgaddi (PARAM PADVI) to Gurbani-Guru Granth Sahib. Is there any one equal to Guru Gobind Singh Ji out there or anyone who can match Gurbani? Gurbani has this Param Padvi, Sikh has Gurbani, what else he has to look for. 

Quoting Gurbani helps even the worst. One doesn't become anything, Gurbani, Guru Satguru makes them whatever they are- Changaaeean Bureyaaneean Vaache Dharam Hadoor(please excuse me for my spellings). 

Making others aware of the existance of 'Banarsi Thugs' is a Noble Task. Even if only one single soul is saved from falling into their trap by reading these threads, all this work done by sevaks of Guru Ji is rewarding. Only a Gurmukh can have courage to face such a social issue and openly talk about it. 


SSMDCX Ji, I am sorry but I must say it is hard to remember your name- what does it mean- it may help me to remember it.

SSMDCX Ji,  Gurbani Gavo bhai mere, Peeo Daade Da Khajaana Hai- Ral Mil Khavo Kharcho. Guru Mata, Guru Pita Hai.


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## SSMDCX (Feb 12, 2008)

Guru Pyare Jee:

All We Want To Say Is That Only The One Who Has Achieved That Level Of Puran Braham Gyan Can Know Hat Is Fake And What Is Not Fake And Nothing More Than That, For Those Of Us Making These Kinds Of Judgements Is Not A Wise Thing To Do, More Focus On Naam, Naam Simran, Naam Ki Kamai, Puran Bandgi And Seva - Parupkaar And Maha Parupkaar Will Help Us All, Criticism Or Slandering Never Helps And Will Never Help.

Dassan Dass - That Is Our Name


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 12, 2008)

SSMDCX said:


> Guru Pyare Jee:
> 
> All We Want To Say Is That Only The One Who Has Achieved That Level Of Puran Braham Gyan Can Know Hat Is Fake And What Is Not Fake And Nothing More Than That, For Those Of Us Making These Kinds Of Judgements Is Not A Wise Thing To Do, More Focus On Naam, Naam Simran, Naam Ki Kamai, Puran Bandgi And Seva - Parupkaar And Maha Parupkaar Will Help Us All, Criticism Or Slandering Never Helps And Will Never Help.
> 
> Dassan Dass - That Is Our Name



just curious, but how many of you are there?  or is it like the "royal" we that british kings use?


----------



## AmbarDhara (Feb 12, 2008)

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi​ 
SGGS JI​ 
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 



ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥ ​

asankh moorakh andhh ghor ||​

Countless fools, blinded by ignorance.​ 

 

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​


----------



## AmbarDhara (Feb 12, 2008)

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 232​ 
SGGS JI​ 
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 


ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥​


andhhae guroo thae bharam n jaaee ||

Those whose guru is spiritually blind - their doubts are not dispelled.

SGGS JI
ANG 491
​SATGURU PRASAAD
ਗੁਰੂ ਸਦਾਏ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਅੰਧਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਓਹੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ॥੩॥
guroo sadhaaeae agiaanee andhhaa kis ouhu maarag paaeae ||3||
The ignorant, blind man calls himself the guru, but to whom can he show the way? ||3||​

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 3, 2011)

If we can recognise the "GUR" of Gurbaani , all fake preachers/propupGuru/Fake Babas 
will vanish automatically.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 3, 2011)

simpy said:


> *The foremost feature:*
> 
> *This person generates a feeling of inferiority in others and shamlessly show off his/her own greatness. This person wants you to believe that he/she is the only one who is directly blessed by Guru/God.........................*
> 
> ...



Sangat ji 

I noticed there was a lot of off-topic chit chat at various intersections in this thread that may have caused the conversation to take a left turn. So I have reposted the very first comments in the thread just to get back into focus. Thank you.


----------



## Caspian (Mar 3, 2011)

Is it not possible for someone to be compassionate and humble; yet, still be a fake guru? What is it that makes a guru a guru? If it's something along the lines of "illuminating the truth" (which is a quite frequent response on these forums, that a Guru is someone who shows you the truth) is it not possible to believe something to be true; yet still be wrong?


----------



## Seeker9 (Mar 3, 2011)

Dear Caspian Ji

Interesting questions as ever! 

And hope your exams are going well

Some thoughts from me then:



> Is it not possible for someone to be compassionate and humble; yet, still be a fake guru?



Yes!



> What is it that makes a guru a guru? If it's something along the lines of "illuminating the truth" (which is a quite frequent response on these forums, that a Guru is someone who shows you the truth)



That's an acceptable quality, yes




> is it not possible to believe something to be true; yet still be wrong?



Yes, again

But a distinction as well.....what one thinks is Truth and what actually is Truth aren't always the same


----------



## Caspian (Mar 3, 2011)

> But a distinction as well.....what one thinks is Truth and what actually is Truth aren't always the same


Agreed. Does it suffice then to "go with the flow" so to say and follow a Guru that you think is most closely related to "the truth." Or should skepticism, indecision, and criticism be the defacto response to all Guru's (whether they are fake or not).

I guess the problem is. How do you separate the really good (not so obvious) fakes from the real deals? 

Those familiar with the philosophy of art can liken this problem to trying to tell the difference between an Original Van Gogh and a hypothetical Van Gogh that was painted, stroke for stroke (down to the molecular composition of the paint) similarly to the original. One could also suggest that there may not be a difference between the two, although I would say that is a controversial claim .


----------



## Seeker9 (Mar 3, 2011)

> Agreed. Does it suffice then to "go with the flow" so to say and follow a Guru that you think is most closely related to "the truth."



Not sure about "going with the flow" but you should go with one that you as an individual think is true. What anyone else thinks doesn't matter and don't try to say my guru is better than your guru because etc. I favour "an each to their own" approach but the problem is this rarely happens



> Or should skepticism, indecision, and criticism be the defacto response to all Guru's (whether they are fake or not).



No because if they are not fake, then surely you are the one who loses out?



> I guess the problem is. How do you separate the really good (not so obvious) fakes from the real deals?



The great Spiritual quest of life!


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 3, 2011)

The point of this thread is: 'how to recognize a fake baba/godman/fake guru. The point of this thread is not whether  one should follow same or not. Please stay on the topic and we may discover that once we get beyond  playing mind-games and striving to be clever, that the "fake guru" "fake baba" etc etc etc is more than a label or construction. There is a vast and ugly context associated with them. It includes things like kidnapping, extortion, theft, rape, abuse of children, alienation of families, mind control, stock-piling weapons, larceny, and even murder. 

So it makes sense to discuss how these unprincipled individuals use their "talents" to relieve people of their dignity, their money and their freedom. It does not make sense to shave a fine point or figure a way to determine who is shady, shadier, shadiest. 

The previous post on Pascal's Wager was moved to Internfaith Forums/Ahteism. Please get back to the intent of the thread.


----------



## Archived_member14 (Mar 3, 2011)

Caspian ji,

Most thread headings do not arouse my interest and so I avoid opening and reading them. And this morning I came in with the intention to respond to one thread posted yesterday regarding ‘aversion towards Islam’ by way of making a statement about aversion in general. But that thread for some reason has been removed. My attention was then drawn to this one and I opened the last page with your comment at the top. 

I was reminded about my own thoughts on a similar topic a few years ago. At the time I had come to the conclusion that people are attracted to teachings and teachers in accordance to their accumulated tendencies. Indeed it is not so much a matter of ‘learning’ something new, but rather hearing that which one has an inclination for and already accepted in the past (read past lives).

The problem however is this; all teachings about what is and what should be, comes with it a sense of being *right*. This is due to the fact that any wrong perceptions and ideas associated must be accompanied by attachment and with this is pleasant feeling. And the truth is that we are moved from moment to moment all our life, by attraction towards pleasant feelings and resistance to unpleasant feelings. On top of this is conceit, which is also usually accompanied by pleasant feelings, and this acts to resist any suggestion that perhaps “we” are wrong. 

Furthermore is the problem of the “birds of a feather flock together” phenomenon. We find people who agree with us which further give the impression of our being on the right track. Besides, we are in the company of ‘friends’, and essentially this is based on the attachment to sense pleasures.

So we have wrong understandings, attachment and conceit all reinforcing each other and this makes it ever hard to question what we hear and are attracted by. 

My conclusion at the time was that nothing can then be done. We’d always have all sorts of views going around with people being attracted to one or more of them. And we’d have teachers and fake gurus who teach them and towards whom there is so much attachment, that no one can prove to their followers, that they are wrong. This is the “all embracing net of views” which the whole world unwittingly gets caught in. 

You asked:
Quote:
Is it not possible for someone to be compassionate and humble; yet, still be a fake guru? 


C: I personally do not think so. Humility comes from understanding and compassion is aimed at the wellbeing of the other. 

And I’ll add, that the goodness in terms of morality of another person is determined not simply by having ‘known’ him for a long time, not to speak of the position of a disciple on lower ground, looking up at the guru. It is known by living with him for a good period of time and observing his behavior in all circumstances. But of course, this is only possible if one has the ability to discern and has good morality oneself. 


Quote:
What is it that makes a guru a guru? If it's something along the lines of "illuminating the truth" (which is a quite frequent response on these forums, that a Guru is someone who shows you the truth) is it not possible to believe something to be true; yet still be wrong?


C: Of course, and that is what gives power to the guru, namely our own ignorance and attachments. 

The person who has some level of right understanding will be able to recognize false teachings. Sometimes however, the guru simply repeats what he has read in certain texts that do reflect the truth. In this case, getting into serious discussions with the guru is the one way which allows any superficiality to be exposed. But this is about the individual concerned and not a matter of exposing the guru. 

And as with the case of morality, the individual here would have to have some degree of wisdom himself. His aim is the development of his own understanding and therefore he would rightly not concern himself with trying to expose anyone. After all, simply to expose a guru does not make other disciples, those who are essentially fools, any wiser. We can only help by talking about the truth ourselves and this is never a matter of ‘persons’. You would talk about what is right and what is wrong and your audience may in the process come to recognize the wrongness of teachings by others, and this would be exactly due to his own wisdom accumulated from the past (I know that you do not believe in past lives ;-)).

In conclusion, I believe that we should all try to develop our own understanding and not concern ourselves with matters of the ‘world’, particularly when it comes to other people’s inclination to follow this or that teaching and guru. Besides, an elephant stuck in the mud can’t pull to safety another elephant similarly stuck. But of course only with the arising of wisdom is there this realization, which like everything else, can’t be made to arise by will…………...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 3, 2011)

I think the problem is that we are trying to see GURU/BABA in human form whereas the word GURU in Gurbaani is not related for persons,
We should find out some criterion from within Gurbaani for such conclusion.There is a Qoute in Gurbaani pp444 we should seethat.A FAKE GURUor BABA in human form shall always avoid talking about GUR  or GURMATi RAM NAAMu.This is a very strong point to verify.

TRUE GURU SGGS is all about GUR only.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Astroboy (Mar 4, 2011)

Going with the flow can be associated with water which flows within the pipe. A Baba is revealed as fake when he breaks the divine and moral principles. Then he is like the broken pipe that doesn't allow the flow to continue in the same direction.

There are many fake babas because they never intended to become babas in the beginning but saw the power they held on the blind faith of women especially who repeatedly give them large doses of reverence. They become fake when they dress like a baba. Sometimes it is necessary for them to continue this disguise because the blind faith which it commands from the masses begin to create miracles. The credit is usually given to the baba for the miracles not realizing that the miracles are created by the believers' own devotion.


----------



## Astroboy (Mar 4, 2011)

To understand the power of this placebo effect, please view the video. We definitely can't say that there are fake doctors and psychologist out there to rob us of our money.

YouTube        - SSS(12of14) - The Placebo Effect and Psychic Surgery


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 4, 2011)

namjap ji - Thanks for helping this thread get back on track.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 4, 2011)

WHAT IT IS THAT MAKES A GURU A GURU? {Post refe CASPIAN Jis}

Very important to know  this. IT IS GUR THAT MAKES A GURU.
In other words GURU is the BODY of the GUR.
This can be known from SGGS .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 4, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> WHAT IT IS THAT MAKES A GURU A GURU? {Post refe CASPIAN Jis}
> 
> Very important to know  this. IT IS GUR THAT MAKES A GURU.
> In other words GURU is the BODY of the GUR.
> ...


Prakash S. Bagga ji you quote this quite often.  I can kind of make it but really appreciate if you start a thread or something to fully describe this for everyone.

I assume you mean it to be,

"Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani, wich Bani ...."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the scripture, and the scripture is also the Guru ...)

I would really value your clarification and exposition in a bit of detail.

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.​


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 5, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

I certainly get to your point.
I may not be good in giving a start of thread if you can assist me i can contribute to the contents.
I am sure you are from India and you must be familiar with the importance of grammer in the language.You must be familiar how a word is SINGULAR or PLURAL NOUN/ADJECTIVE,Masculine/Faminine etc
The same thing is applicable to the language of Gurbaani.We need to recognise this pattern of classification of words in Gurbaani.That is all.There is a very very simple formula for this in Gurbaani which we are omitting and it is this consideration that makes the differences in our individuals interpretations.

Second important point I would like to bring to your kind notice is that surprisingly the required gramatical indications in English version of SGGS do not exist as in Gurmukhi version of SGGS.This further gives rise to confusion and it becomes difficult to identify the grammer of the word
For example
In Gurmukhi version of SGGS you will find there are three words as GURU...GURu and GUR whereas in English version we have only two as GURU..GUR.Now you can visualise yourself in such circumstances how we can come to clear understanding of Gurbaani.

I personally feel somewhere we have missed the HIGHWAY in Gurbaani understanding
so we should try to come back to this HIGHWAY of proper understandind of Gurbaanias per gramatical indications of Gurbaani words given by our GURU ARJAN DEV Ji.

Now I come to your quote .
If we look at correct words according to Gurmukhi version of Gurbaani the Quote should beas

"BANi GURUGURU HAE BANI VICH BANI AMRIT SAARE
GURu BANI KAHE SEWAK JAN MAANE PRATAKH GURU NISTARE"

In theabove verse it is important to know the following
In the first line the word GURUGURU
in the second linethe words are GURu and again a word GURU

The exact interpretation is certainly related to the grammer of the words.

So I consider the interpretation of above as BANI is GURUGURU  and this  is GURu where in GURU is there to clear us off .

I would therefore request you to recognise the way words are classified as SINGULAR /PLURAL. in Gurbaani then we may have better going in understanding

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 5, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

According to the verse BANI has been reffered as GUR not GURU.You can yourself verify this fact from SGGS that nowhere BANI is being reffered as GURU BANI .
BANI is always reffered as GUR BANI.

The problem is related to a fact that we do not differentiate in the words GUR and GURU.This needs to be analysed why it is SO?

I am of the view that there should be certainly difference in the reference meanings of thewords GUR and GURU as grammer of these two words is different.I seek your opinion regarding this.

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------

