# Reincarnation / Transmigration: Revisited & Re-explored



## IJSingh

To Indian philosophic and mythological lore belong the roots of the very rich and complex idea of reincarnation and transmigration.  Semitic religions – Judaism with its two offsprings, Christianity and Islam, and the Bahai faith sidestep them.




 

Both Hindu Vedantic and Semitic systems, whose beginnings are lost in antiquity, posit that a Day of Judgment follows the end of life.  In the Divine Court each of us will be judged and held accountable for our transgressions – in thought and deed; mitigating circumstances accommodated, willful behavior noted.

Depending on this final balance sheet, the Indic systems posit that, most likely, we are returned for another sojourn on Earth to atone for what we have done or left undone.  In what form we return, as what species of life, rests on that final audit of our life. The Creator has a choice of 8,400,000 species to choose from.  And the cycle continues from one birth to another – recycled again and again until and unless liberated.  What and when does that happen?  It depends.  In the rare case of having lived an exemplary life of rectitude and service to the Creator, we would, at judgment, be released from this perpetual recycling. 

And this freedom is the goal of human life. So proclaim the Indic religions.

Clearly the ideas of reincarnation and transmigration are both powerful and sophisticated; they define an exquisite model of finely calibrated justice at the end of life.  They also interweave all creation into one large tapestry. 

But are these processes merely transactional or are they transformational?

Given their enormous presence in the larger Indian culture, reincarnation and transmigration come across as the dominating themes in the Guru Granth Sahib.

Should they be?

Given the overwhelming frequency in the Guru Granth of these topics, the majority of Sikhs likely views reincarnation and transmigration as fundamentally real.  It’s true that they are promoted as such in Hindu mythological lore.

This also means that our focus in life automatically shifts to what will likely happen after death.  We then begin to undervalue this life on Earth – its needs, rewards, promises and challenges while we overvalue rituals and practices that we do not understand but that motivate us by fear of the unknown to come.

The lines of Bhagat Trilochan from the Guru Granth (p. 526) are the most often cited by those who interpret matters literally.  His words in translation follow:

_“At his very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again, as a serpent._

_He who dies in thoughts of women shall return as a prostitute._

_One who dies thinking of mansions shall be reincarnated as a goblin._

_......_

_At his very last moments, one who thinks of the Lord, says Trilochan, shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.”_

Most commentators that I have read or heard take Trilochan’s words as the gospel truth – absolutely literally true.  I, on the other hand, look at them as beautiful poetry that needs to be interpreted in the context of time, culture and the march of science.

An academic biologist, Dr Sukhraj Singh Dhillon, responded to one of my essays that remain analytically critical of our literal embrace of Trilochan with a judgment that I salute for its brevity but not for help in resolving this controversy.  He said: “_The aspect of our belief in Reincarnation/transmigration and next life will affect how we interpret gurbani. …. IJ Singh doesn’t believe in reincarnation and transmigration but Rawel Singh does. Most of the members (readers) fall in one category or the other.”_

I believe that a 3-line statement as this does not enlighten us.  I have p{censored}d this theme at length in several essays but specifically in one titled From Here to Eternity.  Today I have cannibalized that and a few earlier essays on related topics to stitch together this new perspective.

My views on reincarnation etc are more nuanced than are implied in the four-word comment above. 

What then to make of Trilochan's hymn and the myriad other references to transmigration and reincarnation in the Guru Granth?

A non-traditional reinterpretation of Trilochan could become transformational rather than remaining transactional, and yet be consistent with the fundamental message of Gurbani.

If one takes the Hindu view of the cycle of birth and rebirth literally, one would then be logically bound to look for one's ancestors in {censored}roaches, rats, mice, lions or kings and queens, depending upon how their earthly lives were measured by a heavenly judge.  It seems to be a logically coherent and consistent model, but not a likely one.

Why NOT to interpret Trilochan’s hymn literally? 

Literal interpretation of the last stanza of his hymn, for instance could suggest to us that one may sin the whole life to one's heart's content; all that is necessary to be in the Creator’s good grace is to die with the name of God on one's lips. 

Now, how does that fit the model of perfect justice?

The poetry and imagery must be kept in mind in exploring the meaning. 

What Trilochan says to me is that if you were obsessed with mansions all your life, then you may as well be a ghost or a goblin that supposedly haunts such buildings.  If money and treasures have defined your life, you may as well be a snake.  (In the Indian culture, snakes are reputed to make their home near buried treasures.)

Why?  Because your character traits have emerged from your preoccupations and values - that is the kind of a person you have become.   I interpret all of the examples in his hymn similarly - it is metaphorical language, not to be literally translated.

To my mind, what Trilochan means here is to point to what one has become over a lifetime of habits. "Reincarnation", then, is used as a metaphor (this is poetry, right?), for the biological life cycle.

So, until we get it "right", we are going to embody the human (or animal) experience over and over again in this life.  Put another way, until we learn to live without a personal stake (_haumae),_ we are going to attach ourselves to behavioral modalities which, unchecked, lead to addictive/neurotic personalities, and so the cycle continues.

It is not possible to talk about "here and hereafter" in the traditional Indian culture without reference to reincarnation. Indians take the matter quite literally and seriously.  It is not an easy matter to upend the whole applecart. The Gurus, therefore, taught in the language of the people and in the context of the times in which they lived.  The Gurus chose the language and style that would resonate with the average person.

This is exactly why the Guru Granth visits this recurring theme on reincarnation and transmigration so often.

Some level of prophetic language _a la_ Trilochan may be necessary to goad people into the right behavior. Hence the dire warnings in his writing!

Guru Granth also reiterates, more than once, the Hindu belief that there are 8.4 million species through which the soul may cycle and recycle until liberated.  I think the number is not to be taken literally.  It is like saying in English that there are a gazillion species; it is not a fixed number but it is large. 

If tomorrow, greater or lesser number of species is documented by evolutionary biologists, one must not conclude that the ancient Indian philosophers or the Sikh Gurus were in error.  Effective teaching requires that the cultural context be kept in mind. 

So, what do I personally believe happens after death? 

My reading of the Guru Granth Sahib further connects me with the morality play in two well known lessons. When Socrates, at his trial, was asked if there was life after death his answer was simply awesome.  Said he, if there is then it would be absolutely great; a fantastic opportunity to meet great minds like Hippocrates who had gone before him.  And if there were none then it would be like a dreamless sleep; he was an old man and needed the rest.

The second view I share with you comes from Norman Vincent Peale, the 20th Century prophet of Positive Thinking. He compared life after death to the birth of a baby.  If you could ask a baby _in utero_ its opinion of life after birth, the answer might be that it is at home where it is – why exchange that comfort for the unknown. Asked after birth of its prenatal existence it would have no opinion. 

Death is a veil, like birth, through which we may not see.  If you live this life right, the afterlife would take care of itself.  It surely would be no less.

Science tells us that matter and energy change form but are neither created nor destroyed.  This says to me that we have always been and will always be around in some shape or form, including what is left of the (degraded?) version or fragments of our DNA.

In reincarnation and related questions theanalogy that comes to mind is the engineering concept of servomechanisms, with a continuously recalibrating circuitry, that have error-sensing feedback loops that modify the process as indicated by the data coming in. 

This is how I would translate the idea of the greater biological life cycle in the language of today.  Many such feedback circuits are known to exist in human neuronal connectivity, for instance.

My view would be that, metaphorically reinterpreted, the terms reincarnation and transmigration really mean that after death everyone and every species has life that becomes part of the *greater biological life cycle.* 

In the context of a large expansive biological life cycle, it remains immaterial whether one ends up pushing up roses or becoming a feeding frenzy for worms; either is equally meaningful.

This is how I see the cycle of birth and rebirth, reincarnation or issues like transmigration.

End-of-life questions on reincarnation and related matters are not really helpful.  What is critical instead is the challenge posited by Guru Amardas (Guru Granth p. 922): What footprints will you leave in the sands of time? (_Eh sareera merya iss jugg meh aaye ke kya tudh karam kamayaa_).   

You might be wondering why I am engaged in such a protracted rigmarole around this when some readers will surely take umbrage at my analyses. What I am hoping for is not a 2-line or 4-word summary judgment but for a continuing and thoughtful conversation, not confrontation, on matters that are both timely and important to cleaning the cobwebs of our mind. 

Statements and edicts etched in stone are not helpful.


----------



## japjisahib04

IJSingh said:


> To Indian philosophic and mythological lore belong the roots of the very rich and complex idea of reincarnation and transmigration.  Semitic religions – Judaism with its two offsprings, Christianity and Islam, and the Bahai faith sidestep them.
> 
> View attachment 19558
> 
> Both Hindu Vedantic and Semitic systems, whose beginnings are lost in antiquity, posit that a Day of Judgment follows the end of life.  In the Divine Court each of us will be judged and held accountable for our transgressions – in thought and deed; mitigating circumstances accommodated, willful behavior noted.
> 
> Depending on this final balance sheet, the Indic systems posit that, most likely, we are returned for another sojourn on Earth to atone for what we have done or left undone.  In what form we return, as what species of life, rests on that final audit of our life. The Creator has a choice of 8,400,000 species to choose from.  And the cycle continues from one birth to another – recycled again and again until and unless liberated.  What and when does that happen?  It depends.  In the rare case of having lived an exemplary life of rectitude and service to the Creator, we would, at judgment, be released from this perpetual recycling.
> 
> And this freedom is the goal of human life. So proclaim the Indic religions.
> 
> Clearly the ideas of reincarnation and transmigration are both powerful and sophisticated; they define an exquisite model of finely calibrated justice at the end of life.  They also interweave all creation into one large tapestry.
> 
> But are these processes merely transactional or are they transformational?
> 
> Given their enormous presence in the larger Indian culture, reincarnation and transmigration come across as the dominating themes in the Guru Granth Sahib.
> 
> Should they be?
> 
> Given the overwhelming frequency in the Guru Granth of these topics, the majority of Sikhs likely views reincarnation and transmigration as fundamentally real.  It’s true that they are promoted as such in Hindu mythological lore.
> 
> This also means that our focus in life automatically shifts to what will likely happen after death.  We then begin to undervalue this life on Earth – its needs, rewards, promises and challenges while we overvalue rituals and practices that we do not understand but that motivate us by fear of the unknown to come.
> 
> The lines of Bhagat Trilochan from the Guru Granth (p. 526) are the most often cited by those who interpret matters literally.  His words in translation follow:
> 
> _“At his very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again, as a serpent._
> 
> _He who dies in thoughts of women shall return as a prostitute._
> 
> _One who dies thinking of mansions shall be reincarnated as a goblin._
> 
> _......_
> 
> _At his very last moments, one who thinks of the Lord, says Trilochan, shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.”_
> 
> Most commentators that I have read or heard take Trilochan’s words as the gospel truth – absolutely literally true.  I, on the other hand, look at them as beautiful poetry that needs to be interpreted in the context of time, culture and the march of science.
> 
> An academic biologist, Dr Sukhraj Singh Dhillon, responded to one of my essays that remain analytically critical of our literal embrace of Trilochan with a judgment that I salute for its brevity but not for help in resolving this controversy.  He said: “_The aspect of our belief in Reincarnation/transmigration and next life will affect how we interpret gurbani. …. IJ Singh doesn’t believe in reincarnation and transmigration but Rawel Singh does. Most of the members (readers) fall in one category or the other.”_
> 
> I believe that a 3-line statement as this does not enlighten us.  I have p{censored}d this theme at length in several essays but specifically in one titled From Here to Eternity.  Today I have cannibalized that and a few earlier essays on related topics to stitch together this new perspective.
> 
> My views on reincarnation etc are more nuanced than are implied in the four-word comment above.
> 
> What then to make of Trilochan's hymn and the myriad other references to transmigration and reincarnation in the Guru Granth?
> 
> A non-traditional reinterpretation of Trilochan could become transformational rather than remaining transactional, and yet be consistent with the fundamental message of Gurbani.
> 
> If one takes the Hindu view of the cycle of birth and rebirth literally, one would then be logically bound to look for one's ancestors in {censored}roaches, rats, mice, lions or kings and queens, depending upon how their earthly lives were measured by a heavenly judge.  It seems to be a logically coherent and consistent model, but not a likely one.
> 
> Why NOT to interpret Trilochan’s hymn literally?
> 
> Literal interpretation of the last stanza of his hymn, for instance could suggest to us that one may sin the whole life to one's heart's content; all that is necessary to be in the Creator’s good grace is to die with the name of God on one's lips.
> 
> Now, how does that fit the model of perfect justice?
> 
> The poetry and imagery must be kept in mind in exploring the meaning.
> 
> What Trilochan says to me is that if you were obsessed with mansions all your life, then you may as well be a ghost or a goblin that supposedly haunts such buildings.  If money and treasures have defined your life, you may as well be a snake.  (In the Indian culture, snakes are reputed to make their home near buried treasures.)
> 
> Why?  Because your character traits have emerged from your preoccupations and values - that is the kind of a person you have become.   I interpret all of the examples in his hymn similarly - it is metaphorical language, not to be literally translated.
> 
> To my mind, what Trilochan means here is to point to what one has become over a lifetime of habits. "Reincarnation", then, is used as a metaphor (this is poetry, right?), for the biological life cycle.
> 
> So, until we get it "right", we are going to embody the human (or animal) experience over and over again in this life.  Put another way, until we learn to live without a personal stake (_haumae),_ we are going to attach ourselves to behavioral modalities which, unchecked, lead to addictive/neurotic personalities, and so the cycle continues.
> 
> It is not possible to talk about "here and hereafter" in the traditional Indian culture without reference to reincarnation. Indians take the matter quite literally and seriously.  It is not an easy matter to upend the whole applecart. The Gurus, therefore, taught in the language of the people and in the context of the times in which they lived.  The Gurus chose the language and style that would resonate with the average person.
> 
> This is exactly why the Guru Granth visits this recurring theme on reincarnation and transmigration so often.
> 
> Some level of prophetic language _a la_ Trilochan may be necessary to goad people into the right behavior. Hence the dire warnings in his writing!
> 
> Guru Granth also reiterates, more than once, the Hindu belief that there are 8.4 million species through which the soul may cycle and recycle until liberated.  I think the number is not to be taken literally.  It is like saying in English that there are a gazillion species; it is not a fixed number but it is large.
> 
> If tomorrow, greater or lesser number of species is documented by evolutionary biologists, one must not conclude that the ancient Indian philosophers or the Sikh Gurus were in error.  Effective teaching requires that the cultural context be kept in mind.
> 
> So, what do I personally believe happens after death?
> 
> My reading of the Guru Granth Sahib further connects me with the morality play in two well known lessons. When Socrates, at his trial, was asked if there was life after death his answer was simply awesome.  Said he, if there is then it would be absolutely great; a fantastic opportunity to meet great minds like Hippocrates who had gone before him.  And if there were none then it would be like a dreamless sleep; he was an old man and needed the rest.
> 
> The second view I share with you comes from Norman Vincent Peale, the 20th Century prophet of Positive Thinking. He compared life after death to the birth of a baby.  If you could ask a baby _in utero_ its opinion of life after birth, the answer might be that it is at home where it is – why exchange that comfort for the unknown. Asked after birth of its prenatal existence it would have no opinion.
> 
> Death is a veil, like birth, through which we may not see.  If you live this life right, the afterlife would take care of itself.  It surely would be no less.
> 
> Science tells us that matter and energy change form but are neither created nor destroyed.  This says to me that we have always been and will always be around in some shape or form, including what is left of the (degraded?) version or fragments of our DNA.
> 
> In reincarnation and related questions theanalogy that comes to mind is the engineering concept of servomechanisms, with a continuously recalibrating circuitry, that have error-sensing feedback loops that modify the process as indicated by the data coming in.
> 
> This is how I would translate the idea of the greater biological life cycle in the language of today.  Many such feedback circuits are known to exist in human neuronal connectivity, for instance.
> 
> My view would be that, metaphorically reinterpreted, the terms reincarnation and transmigration really mean that after death everyone and every species has life that becomes part of the *greater biological life cycle.*
> 
> In the context of a large expansive biological life cycle, it remains immaterial whether one ends up pushing up roses or becoming a feeding frenzy for worms; either is equally meaningful.
> 
> This is how I see the cycle of birth and rebirth, reincarnation or issues like transmigration.
> 
> End-of-life questions on reincarnation and related matters are not really helpful.  What is critical instead is the challenge posited by Guru Amardas (Guru Granth p. 922): What footprints will you leave in the sands of time? (_Eh sareera merya iss jugg meh aaye ke kya tudh karam kamayaa_).
> 
> You might be wondering why I am engaged in such a protracted rigmarole around this when some readers will surely take umbrage at my analyses. What I am hoping for is not a 2-line or 4-word summary judgment but for a continuing and thoughtful conversation, not confrontation, on matters that are both timely and important to cleaning the cobwebs of our mind.Statements and edicts etched in stone are not helpful.


Whether frequency of quotes of jea jant or juenes in the Guru Granth are linked with transformation of mind in this life or is it reincarnation and transmigration and really mean that after death everyone and every species has life that becomes part of the *greater biological life in 8.4 lakhs cycles?
*
I will take my source from Japjisahib and will try to present views. First pauree ends with 'kiv sachiara hoeyeea kiv kuteh tuteh pal and is linked Hukam. Second pauree starts with function of Hukam and is related with manh but as I have noticed most of the translation does not link function of hukam with manh but with creation of God. When Guru sahib says hukmi hovan jea, how does it (jea jant in bilogical life form) fit or is linked with how to transform and be truthful.  Therefore 'jea' is thought process I follow. Gurbani makes it clear 'jea jant sabh bhaey pavitra satguru kee sach sakhi by emoluting divine traits all negative 'jea jant' thoughts are transformed. We have not seen any animal or birds being transformed by listening satguru kee sakhi. Similarly when guru sahib says, 'sabhna jea ka ek datta so mai visar n jaey - that remedy to transform 'sabhna jea' within me is 'ek datta' the truthful wisdom of divine. And juenes are explained gurbani 'maya naam garabh juene ka teh taj darsan pavoh'


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## Tejwant Singh

Thanks Inderjeet ji for deciphering this fear based code from the Sikhi perspective. Yes, Sikhi acknowledges reincarnation and the Hindu concept is repeated quite often in the SGGS, our only Guru.

However, in my opinion acknowledgment of this concept is not its acceptance in the idea based Sikhi. SGGS urges us to have a conversation about it for better understanding of this concept.

Thanks once again for this thoughtful expression.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## chazSingh

Tejwant Singh said:


> Thanks Inderjeet ji for deciphering this fear based code from the Sikhi perspective. Yes, Sikhi acknowledges reincarnation and the Hindu concept is repeated quite often in the SGGS, our only Guru.
> 
> However, in my opinion acknowledgment of this concept is not its acceptance in the idea based Sikhi. SGGS urges us to have a conversation about it for better understanding of this concept.
> 
> Thanks once again for this thoughtful expression.
> 
> Tejwant Singh



Tejwant ji,

*Are you able to provide any examples where Gurbani urges us to merely have conversation about it, rather than speaking of Re-incarnation as actual fact...*

you would think if your point is valid, Gurbani somewhere says "re-incarnation, interesting, but not the truth, however the subject is worth discussing"... 

otherwise, why would Guru Ji ask us to waste our precious time (of which we have very little of) discussing a concept that has no truth in it? Doesn't Guru ji only want us to focus on the absolute truth? why tell us to appreciate this human life...why tell us that we have lived through countless lifeforms to now be blessed with human life? whats the point? for mere discussion of a *non* truthful fact?


----------



## Tejwant Singh

chazSingh said:


> Tejwant ji,
> 
> *Are you able to provide any examples where Gurbani urges us to merely have conversation about it, rather than speaking of Re-incarnation as actual fact...*
> 
> you would think if your point is valid, Gurbani somewhere says "re-incarnation, interesting, but not the truth, however the subject is worth discussing"...
> 
> otherwise, why would Guru Ji ask us to waste our precious time (of which we have very little of) discussing a concept that has no truth in it? Doesn't Guru ji only want us to focus on the absolute truth? why tell us to appreciate this human life...why tell us that we have lived through countless lifeforms to now be blessed with human life? whats the point? for mere discussion of a *non* truthful fact?



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please pull out any whole Shabad  from the SGGS, our only Guru, about  reincarnation and post it with your own understanding, then we can have a very fruitful interaction about it.

Thanks for your keen interest.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## japjisahib04

S. Chaz Singh Ji

I was expecting a shabad or any pankti you feel supports reincarnation. Anyway,  unlike other scrripture which supports reincarnation or judgement after death gurbani clearly tells us, ' ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਪਾਏ ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਮੁਹਤੁ ਨ ਲਗੈ ॥ ਚਾਰੇ ਜੁਗ ਮੈ ਸੋਧਿਆ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਨ ਭਗੈ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਛੁਟਈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸਤਸੰਗੈ ॥ - there is no carried forward laikha. All is settled here then and there, thus question of reincarnation does not arise.


----------



## Original

japjisahib04 said:


> S. Chaz Singh Ji
> 
> I was expecting a shabad or any pankti you feel supports reincarnation. Anyway,  unlike other scrripture which supports reincarnation or judgement after death gurbani clearly tells us, ' ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਪਾਏ ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਮੁਹਤੁ ਨ ਲਗੈ ॥ ਚਾਰੇ ਜੁਗ ਮੈ ਸੋਧਿਆ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਨ ਭਗੈ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਛੁਟਈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸਤਸੰਗੈ ॥ - there is no carried forward laikha. All is settled here then and there, thus question of reincarnation does not arise.



Respected Gentlemen

Sikhism is a system of *belief* and as such doesn't need derogations or scholarly interpretations. It is the word of our "guru" and is therefore true. Of course, one may tailor stitch to fit for purpose in yielding personal benefit because the *word* is omnipresent. But otherwise, simple literal interpretations ought to be an immediate comprehension by the mind giving the words their ordinary signification, unless, when so applied they produce an inconsistency, or an absurdity or inconvenience so great as to convince the reader that the intention of the Banikar could not have been to use them in their ordinary signification as to mean something completely anew. 

Guru Nanak was a social reformer who detested Brahmnical practices, but not all together denounced Hindu ideology. The ideology surronding birth, death, rebirth, karma, dharma and so forth are very much Hindu. Of course, we can sugarcoat reincarnation to advance our disposition in light of western thought and practice, but the beauty found in verses, literature resonates with an aspiring soul which is very much Indian. All the Gurus and the Banikars were from sub-continent India, their pattern of thought was Indian. In light of modern advances of science and technology together with evolutionary modifications there can arise valid arguments to validate alternative interpretations of reincarnation. But insofar the written word of SGGSJ is to be read and construed, it must in my view, be with the intent and the disposition of the writer at the time and era of his social being notwithstanding contemplative mood.

Our beliefs come in many shapes and sizes, from the trivial, "I believe it will be a sunny day today" to profound leaps, "I believe in God". Taken together they give us a window of reality with time the adjudicator.

Sikh theology speaks in some instances of reincarnation evidently. For example, Hemkunt Sahib, Hazur Sahib, Banda Bahadur [ in previous life was Madhouse Das, accomplice of Guru Nanak]. Guru Gobind gives an account of his past life and as a result we have Hemkunt and Hazur. To treat these as mythological or else is purely rational and subjective.

All in all - the beauty of Sikhi is that, we are the Nanak's and Gobind's of yesterday - for they the spirit and we the body in 21st Century. Call it reincarnation, transformation, transmigration or whatever or none of them.


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## chazSingh

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Please pull out any whole Shabad  from the SGGS, our only Guru, about  reincarnation and post it with your own understanding, then we can have a very fruitful interaction about it.
> 
> Thanks for your keen interest.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh




Tejwant Ji,

i clearly asked you a question. it is not a confusing question nor a trick question. here it is for you again:
*Are you able to provide any examples where Gurbani urges us to merely have conversation about it, rather than speaking of Re-incarnation as actual fact...*


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## chazSingh

Original said:


> Respected Gentlemen
> 
> Sikhism is a system of *belief* and as such doesn't need derogations or scholarly interpretations. It is the word of our "guru" and is therefore true. Of course, one may tailor stitch to fit for purpose in yielding personal benefit because the *word* is omnipresent. But otherwise, simple literal interpretations ought to be an immediate comprehension by the mind giving the words their ordinary signification, unless, when so applied they produce an inconsistency, or an absurdity or inconvenience so great as to convince the reader that the intention of the Banikar could not have been to use them in their ordinary signification as to mean something completely anew.
> 
> Guru Nanak was a social reformer who detested Brahmnical practices, but not all together denounced Hindu ideology. The ideology surronding birth, death, rebirth, karma, dharma and so forth are very much Hindu. Of course, we can sugarcoat reincarnation to advance our disposition in light of western thought and practice, but the beauty found in verses, literature resonates with an aspiring soul which is very much Indian. All the Gurus and the Banikars were from sub-continent India, their pattern of thought was Indian. In light of modern advances of science and technology together with evolutionary modifications there can arise valid arguments to validate alternative interpretations of reincarnation. But insofar the written word of SGGSJ is to be read and construed, it must in my view, be with the intent and the disposition of the writer at the time and era of his social being notwithstanding contemplative mood.
> 
> Our beliefs come in many shapes and sizes, from the trivial, "I believe it will be a sunny day today" to profound leaps, "I believe in God". Taken together they give us a window of reality with time the adjudicator.
> 
> Sikh theology speaks in some instances of reincarnation evidently. For example, Hemkunt Sahib, Hazur Sahib, Banda Bahadur [ in previous life was Madhouse Das, accomplice of Guru Nanak]. Guru Gobind gives an account of his past life and as a result we have Hemkunt and Hazur. To treat these as mythological or else is purely rational and subjective.
> 
> All in all - the beauty of Sikhi is that, we are the Nanak's and Gobind's of yesterday - for they the spirit and we the body in 21st Century. Call it reincarnation, transformation, transmigration or whatever or none of them.



Original Ji,

The Guru Ji's came to tell us about the 'truth'

you cannot say they are in any way affected by the Age or time of writing or society as it stood at that time. they would lose their integrity if it is in any way affected by what surrounds them. the truth is the truth...simple.

regardless of all the theories that were put into place over countless years..the truth was, is and forever will be...the earth revolves around the Sun


----------



## Original

chazSingh said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> The Guru Ji's came to tell us about the 'truth'
> 
> you cannot say they are in any way affected by the Age or time of writing or society as it stood at that time. they would lose their integrity if it is in any way affected by what surrounds them. the truth is the truth...simple.
> 
> regardless of all the theories that were put into place over countless years..the truth was, is and forever will be...the earth revolves around the Sun



Dear Chaz Ji

Once again you've not understood what I've said. Kindly re read and digest, I'm 100% of the view with what Sikh theology supports.

Truth has always been and always will be, but the subject matter at hand is reincarnation. I've cited few examples which supports such system of belief without going into Gurbani.

Have another read and if you want me to explain in more detail I will.

Thank you


----------



## Tejwant Singh

chazSingh said:


> Tejwant Ji,
> 
> i clearly asked you a question. it is not a confusing question nor a trick question. here it is for you again:
> *Are you able to provide any examples where Gurbani urges us to merely have conversation about it, rather than speaking of Re-incarnation as actual fact...*



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.
We all read Gurbani and try to understand it with the best of our abilities. As you do this as well, please pull out the Shabads that make you understand your own concept about the subject we are discussing, so that we can all learn from each other.

Hence my response remains the same.

Please pull out any whole Shabad from the SGGS, our only Guru, about reincarnation and post it with your own understanding, then we can have a very fruitful interaction about it.

Thanks for your keen interest.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Harry Haller

Original said:


> ikhism is a system of *belief* and as such doesn't need derogations or scholarly interpretations. It is the word of our "guru" and is therefore true. Of course, one may tailor stitch to fit for purpose in yielding personal benefit because the *word* is omnipresent. But otherwise, simple literal interpretations ought to be an immediate comprehension by the mind giving the words their ordinary signification, unless, when so applied they produce an inconsistency, or an absurdity or inconvenience so great as to convince the reader that the intention of the Banikar could not have been to use them in their ordinary signification as to mean something completely anew.



the trouble with this is, sometimes the simple literal interpretations were never meant to be taken either simply or as literally, in my own view.



Original said:


> Guru Nanak was a social reformer who detested Brahmnical practices, but not all together denounced Hindu ideology.



I am not so sure, my understanding is that Brahminical practices go hand in hand with Hindu ideology. I do not believe he grabbed something and refined it, nor do I believe that Sikhism is a halfway house between Islam and Hinduism, in my opinion, he fashioned something brand new and from scratch. Any references to Vedic or Muslim philosophy were meant to be references not suggestions nor was he condoning them, in fact, I find most references are made quite tongue in cheek.



Original said:


> The ideology surronding birth, death, rebirth, karma, dharma and so forth are very much Hindu.



and should stay very much Hindu


Original said:


> Of course, we can sugarcoat reincarnation to advance our disposition in light of western thought and practice, but the beauty found in verses, literature resonates with an aspiring soul which is very much Indian. All the Gurus and the Banikars were from sub-continent India, their pattern of thought was Indian.



This does not follow that reincarnation is therefore part of Sikhism.



Original said:


> Our beliefs come in many shapes and sizes, from the trivial, "I believe it will be a sunny day today" to profound leaps, "I believe in God". Taken together they give us a window of reality with time the adjudicator.



I have never thought of Sikhism as a leap of faith, I feel it is more pragmatic than that.



Original said:


> Sikh theology speaks in some instances of reincarnation evidently. For example, Hemkunt Sahib, Hazur Sahib, Banda Bahadur [ in previous life was Madhouse Das, accomplice of Guru Nanak]. Guru Gobind gives an account of his past life and as a result we have Hemkunt and Hazur. To treat these as mythological or else is purely rational and subjective.



Not all of us believe in Hemkunt Sahib, some of us see it as nothing more than a location that is responsible for much misery in people trying to reach it. I do not accept that Guru Gobindji had a past life, nor Banda Bahadur. It is not even out of subjectivity nor rationality, but out of what I feel the SGGS has taught me.



Original said:


> All in all - the beauty of Sikhi is that, we are the Nanak's and Gobind's of yesterday - for they the spirit and we the body in 21st Century. Call it reincarnation, transformation, transmigration or whatever or none of them.



pragmatism?


----------



## Sherdil

Perhaps some thought needs to be given towards what exactly is being reincarnated. Is it the individual or the One?

Remember this shabadh? GGS page 736:

*ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧
रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १
Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1
Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥
Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
The actor stages the play,

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥
Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
playing the many characters in different costumes;

ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥
Sāŉg uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,

ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥
Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
and then he is one, and only one. ||1||

ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥
Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?

ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਊਠਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥
जल ते ऊठहि अनिक तरंगा ॥
Jal ṯe ūṯẖėh anik ṯarangā.
Countless waves rise up from the water.

ਕਨਿਕ ਭੂਖਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
कनिक भूखन कीने बहु रंगा ॥
Kanik bẖūkẖan kīne baho rangā.
Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.

ਬੀਜੁ ਬੀਜਿ ਦੇਖਿਓ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥
बीजु बीजि देखिओ बहु परकारा ॥
Bīj bīj ḏekẖi▫o baho parkārā.
I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted -

ਫਲ ਪਾਕੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
फल पाके ते एकंकारा ॥२॥
Fal pāke ṯe ekankārā. ||2||
when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||

ਸਹਸ ਘਟਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥
सहस घटा महि एकु आकासु ॥
Sahas gẖatā mėh ek ākās.
The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,

ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਓਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
घट फूटे ते ओही प्रगासु ॥
Gẖat fūte ṯe ohī pargās.
but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.

ਭਰਮ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
भरम लोभ मोह माइआ विकार ॥
Bẖaram lobẖ moh mā▫i▫ā vikār.
Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.

ਭ੍ਰਮ ਛੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
भ्रम छूटे ते एकंकार ॥३॥
Bẖaram cẖẖūte ṯe ekankār. ||3||
Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||

ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
ओहु अबिनासी बिनसत नाही ॥
Oh abẖināsī binsaṯ nāhī.
He is imperishable; He will never pass away.

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
ना को आवै ना को जाही ॥
Nā ko āvai nā ko jāhī.
He does not come, and He does not go.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥
गुरि पूरै हउमै मलु धोई ॥
Gur pūrai ha▫umai mal ḏẖo▫ī.
The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
कहु नानक मेरी परम गति होई ॥४॥१॥
Kaho Nānak merī param gaṯ ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1||*

The same life-force appears as a snake, a bird, a plant, a fish, etc.


----------



## Harry Haller

Sherdil said:


> Is it the individual or the One?



what is the difference?


----------



## Sherdil

harry haller said:


> what is the difference?



In actuality, nothing. 

In terms of this discussion, everything. 

Reincarnation is taken to mean that the individual soul animates a new body after its current body expires.

However if there is nothing but the One, then the individual doesn't exist. If there is nothing but the One then there is no birth or death. Thus, no reincarnation. 

If the individual doesn't exist then there is no karma to be accrued. In fact, the only sin one can commit is dualistic thinking. That is the cause of all suffering. When there is duality, the Beloved is far. When there is no duality, the Beloved is near.


----------



## Original

harry haller said:


> the trouble with this is, sometimes the simple literal interpretations were never meant to be taken either simply or as literally, in my own view.
> 
> Given sizeable population was illiterate [13th Century], Nanak and all the Banikars spoke to the masses in their own local dialect - use of complex and sophisticated techincal jargon would've defeated the objective with which they set out to achieve. According to the literal rule [Law] it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not. If we depart from the plain and obvious meaning on account of such views [yours], we in truth do not construe the "actual" wording but alter it. Take for example, the mool mantra, in particular the wording, "ajunee". Straight away the mind signals the brain to compartmentalise this ajunee and work out meaning. In its simplist form a "june" is a physical presence of a species within the confines of this beautiful universe and by putting a prefix [a], Nanak negated it to effect its actual and simple meaning, which otherwise is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth. By default, evidence is there - believing is another thing.
> 
> I am not so sure, my understanding is that Brahminical practices go hand in hand with Hindu ideology. I do not believe he grabbed something and refined it, nor do I believe that Sikhism is a halfway house between Islam and Hinduism, in my opinion, he fashioned something brand new and from scratch. Any references to Vedic or Muslim philosophy were meant to be references not suggestions nor was he condoning them, in fact, I find most references are made quite tongue in cheek.
> 
> What feels right to believe is powerfully shaped by the culture we grow up in. From a Sociologist's perspective, looking at Nanak's culture [Hindu ideas, literature, Art, Science and a shade of Islamite], biological make [Hindu parents, kin, family, friends, etc] and cognitive disposition [mindset - disillusioned with religious belief of his time, i.e Hindu/Muslem conflict and bigotry] one is drawn to conclude how many of Nanak's fundamentals came to shape him from his childhood. The process begins from the moment we are born, based initially on our sense perception. For example, objects fall downwards [gravity] and gradually our sense perceptions expand as we grow to more abstract ideas and propostions. In Nanak's case, not surprisingly, from the belief sysytem he encountered. As social beings, beliefs are learned from the people we are more closest to - this'd be Nanak's parents. And, if I'm to accept your assertion that Nanak started from scratch based on direct experience, then that would defy the law of cause and effect, which is intrinsic to human nature. What we come to believe is shaped to a large extent by our culture, genetics, and psychology. And, as we grow to adulthood, we tend to have a relatively coherent and resilient set of beliefs that stay with us forever.
> 
> and should stay very much Hindu
> 
> No comment
> 
> This does not follow that reincarnation is therefore part of Sikhism.
> 
> In my humble opinion, you may gain valuable knowledge if you were to study some not all of Sikh History. This will put you on a good stead to understand some of the basics, so that, process of elimnation becomes simpler and absolute. Hazur Sahib and much more has a reincarnation ring to it, which cannot be dismissed without intellectual investgation for the want of respect and reverence.
> 
> I have never thought of Sikhism as a leap of faith, I feel it is more pragmatic than that.
> 
> I was generalising "belief"
> 
> Not all of us believe in Hemkunt Sahib, some of us see it as nothing more than a location that is responsible for much misery in people trying to reach it. I do not accept that Guru Gobindji had a past life, nor Banda Bahadur. It is not even out of subjectivity nor rationality, but out of what I feel the SGGS has taught me.
> 
> Sikh institutions and the millions that turn out to pay their respects have a sense of belonging. Of course, you are entitled to your view and belief.
> 
> 
> pragmatism?



 Reserved

Enjoyed conversing with you brother H, but must put this reincarnation n thing to bed coz there's life out there.

Goodnight and Godbless


----------



## japjisahib04

Original said:


> Reserved
> 
> Enjoyed conversing with you brother H, but must put this reincarnation n thing to bed coz there's life out there.


Let us first know what is death and life through the lense of gurbani.  In our nitnem we daily recite, 'aakha jeevan visrai mar jaon' (when I focus my mind on you I live and forgetting I die) or 'Nanak jit vaila visrai mera suwami {censored} vailai mar jao' - When I forget you Oh my beloved I die. SGGS 562.4 - Now do I physically die by ignoring the gurbani or it spiritual death? This mean through these pankties, guru sahib is trying to convey the definition of janam and maran and is referring  to spiritual death and life. As gurbani reiterates, ‘*ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ॥੧॥ Jo Mar Janmae S Kach Nikach ||1|| *Thus baani is all about spiritual life and death. It is not at all referring to physical death.

To die every instant - 'pal pal marna' Guru sahib describes like this, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ॥੨॥ SGGS. 971.2 - every moment I die and am reborn and yell/bark  like a dog when someone does not obey my order or bite like a snake, and this cycle of tossing and turning or coming and going of mind is not coming to an end (thus  it is not mere 8.4 juenes but an endless cycle).

Further again guru sahib clarify what is ava gavan, 'ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਏਹੋ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਦੀਆ ਸੋ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਲਪਟਾਣਾ ॥੩॥ sggs.882.19.  Through this paknti the cause of (aavan jaana)rebirth has been beautifully depicted. What survives and take birth again and again is the THOUGHTS - Meri, Meri, Mai . Guru Sahib make us realize that we are as insignificant as dust but tend to identify ourselves with this physical mortal body and mind so much that we think we are this body. ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਤਾਂ ਸਹੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ * 441-4. *This attachment to the body & mind is the cause of the cycle of physical birth and death. This notion is not only stressed in this particular sabd but this notion of "Deh-Adhyaas"[I am the body], is repeated over and over in all Gurbani.

*Thus I request you to kindly list a single pankti where gurbani talks of reincarnation of 8.4 juenes physically isntead*


----------



## Original

japjisahib04 said:


> Let us first know what is death and life through the lense of gurbani.  In our nitnem we daily recite, 'aakha jeevan visrai mar jaon' (when I focus my mind on you I live and forgetting I die) or 'Nanak jit vaila visrai mera suwami {censored} vailai mar jao' - When I forget you Oh my beloved I die. SGGS 562.4 - Now do I physically die by ignoring the gurbani or it spiritual death? This mean through these pankties, guru sahib is trying to convey the definition of janam and maran and is referring  to spiritual death and life. As gurbani reiterates, ‘*ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ॥੧॥ Jo Mar Janmae S Kach Nikach ||1|| *Thus baani is all about spiritual life and death. It is not at all referring to physical death.
> 
> To die every instant - 'pal pal marna' Guru sahib describes like this, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ॥੨॥ SGGS. 971.2 - every moment I die and am reborn and yell/bark  like a dog when someone does not obey my order or bite like a snake, and this cycle of tossing and turning or coming and going of mind is not coming to an end (thus  it is not mere 8.4 juenes but an endless cycle).
> 
> Further again guru sahib clarify what is ava gavan, 'ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਏਹੋ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਦੀਆ ਸੋ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਲਪਟਾਣਾ ॥੩॥ sggs.882.19.  Through this paknti the cause of (aavan jaana)rebirth has been beautifully depicted. What survives and take birth again and again is the THOUGHTS - Meri, Meri, Mai . Guru Sahib make us realize that we are as insignificant as dust but tend to identify ourselves with this physical mortal body and mind so much that we think we are this body. ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਤਾਂ ਸਹੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ * 441-4. *This attachment to the body & mind is the cause of the cycle of physical birth and death. This notion is not only stressed in this particular sabd but this notion of "Deh-Adhyaas"[I am the body], is repeated over and over in all Gurbani.



Thank you Japjisahib Ji

The getting caught up in a philosophical assumption and being emotional brings about cognitive dissonance. I have a holistic outlook to life and "belief" is very very personal, which as a pedigree Sikh, I live within. Insofar reincarnation - I was born and brought up in a culture that "believed" full stop. Just as the human body is dissected by a 21st Century surgeon and no soul is found doesn't mean the soul don't exist. It's a matter of belief.

The point of the discussion which I was advancing was to show that reincarnation was part and parcel of an "ideal" system of the  times in which the writers of SGGSJ lived. Take you for example, in a democratic society conform to the "rule of law" [social ideal] albeit dispassionately, but nevertheless obey as a social ideal. So too were the authors of SGGSJ within the confines of a system with which they had to accept a social ideal - reincarnation. Their pattern of thought and expression ought to be interpreted in the light of their environment. Where you and I could in this day and age, arguably, box our way out of a primitive concept [reincarnation] the Bankars unfortunately couldn't because conditions were not such. 

Ideologies develop overtime to better survival conditions, Sikhism too is evolving for better, but we must remain true to its founding conditions.

I'd switch off from this forum - enjoyed the chit chat - thank you !


----------



## japjisahib04

Original said:


> I'd switch off from this forum - enjoyed the chit chat - thank you !


You such a nice person, I would request you to kindly stay in this form to enlighten us.


----------



## Harry Haller

Originalji

A forum is no good if there is only one voice, we are all learning from each other.


----------



## Original

the trouble with this is, sometimes the simple literal interpretations were never meant to be taken either simply or as literally, in my own view.

Given sizeable population was illiterate [13th Century], Nanak and all the Banikars spoke to the masses in their own local dialect - use of complex and sophisticated techincal jargon would've defeated the objective with which they set out to achieve. According to the literal rule [Law] it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not. If we depart from the plain and obvious meaning on account of such views [yours], we in truth do not construe the "actual" wording but alter it. Take for example, the mool mantra, in particular the wording, "ajunee". Straight away the mind signals the brain to compartmentalise this ajunee and work out meaning. In its simplist form a "june" is a physical presence of a species within the confines of this beautiful universe and by putting a prefix [a], Nanak negated it to effect its actual and simple meaning, which otherwise is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth. By default, evidence is there - believing is another thing.

 I am not so sure, my understanding is that Brahminical practices go hand in hand with Hindu ideology. I do not believe he grabbed something and refined it, nor do I believe that Sikhism is a halfway house between Islam and Hinduism, in my opinion, he fashioned something brand new and from scratch. Any references to Vedic or Muslim philosophy were meant to be references not suggestions nor was he condoning them, in fact, I find most references are made quite tongue in cheek.

What feels right to believe is powerfully shaped by the culture we grow up in. From a Sociologist's perspective, looking at Nanak's culture [Hindu ideas, literature, Art, Science and a shade of Islamite], biological make [Hindu parents, kin, family, friends, etc] and cognitive disposition [mindset - disillusioned with religious belief of his time, i.e Hindu/Muslem conflict and bigotry] one is drawn to conclude how many of Nanak's fundamentals came to shape him from his childhood. The process begins from the moment we are born, based initially on our sense perception. For example, objects fall downwards [gravity] and gradually our sense perceptions expand as we grow to more abstract ideas and propostions. In Nanak's case, not surprisingly, from the belief sysytem he encountered. As social beings, beliefs are learned from the people we are more closest to - this'd be Nanak's parents. And, if I'm to accept your assertion that Nanak started from scratch based on direct experience, then that would defy the law of cause and effect, which is intrinsic to human nature. What we come to believe is shaped to a large extent by our culture, genetics, and psychology. And, as we grow to adulthood, we tend to have a relatively coherent and resilient set of beliefs that stay with us forever.

 and should stay very much Hindu

No comment

 This does not follow that reincarnation is therefore part of Sikhism.

In my humble opinion, you may gain valuable knowledge if you were to study some not all of Sikh History. This will put you on a good stead to understand some of the basics, so that, process of elimnation becomes simpler and absolute. Hazur Sahib and much more has a reincarnation ring to it, which cannot be dismissed without intellectual investgation for the want of respect and reverence - again in my humble opinion.

 I have never thought of Sikhism as a leap of faith, I feel it is more pragmatic than that.

I was generalising "belief"

 Not all of us believe in Hemkunt Sahib, some of us see it as nothing more than a location that is responsible for much misery in people trying to reach it. I do not accept that Guru Gobindji had a past life, nor Banda Bahadur. It is not even out of subjectivity nor rationality, but out of what I feel the SGGS has taught me.

Sikh institutions and the millions that turn out to pay their respects have a sense of belonging. Of course, you are entitled to your view and belief.

 pragmatism?

Reserved

Enjoyed conversing with you brother H, but must put this reincarnation n thing to bed coz there's life out there.

Goodnight and Godbless


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## Original

harry haller said:


> Originalji
> 
> A forum is no good if there is only one voice, we are all learning from each other.



Gentlemen

It is my pleasure to be interacting with "good souls" like yourselves. Both, occupation and preoccupation is now more or less listening to Gurbani and spreading the "word" of Baba Nanak to those who seek.

I'm at your service when ever you call.

The beauty of Sikh scriptures is to be found in "living" and "enjoying" life.

Sikhism speaks of pleasures, happiness and bliss. Sizeable population now days cannot get beyond the first let alone the third. Gurbani has so much to offer, the aspiring soul, an apt has to attune to it.

SPN is like a "water hole" in the middle of nowhere, where during the dry season all animals congregate to quench their thirst. Prey and predator both know the game and take their chances, soul mates know this is the place to find lost ones - similarly, I love surfing because my own kind is found.

The only possession I have is Satnam Waheguru - enough to take the world on.

Love you n Leave you until another time.

Respectfully yours


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## japjisahib04

I was going through the following pankties and was wondering 'rizk' in following pankties, is it the food for manh and or body? And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates with God or with our manh. And who created Brahma, Vishnu whose mind was intoxicated by emotional attachment. Will God create such things or is it our manh, thus brahma throughout gurbani stands for our thought process and not mythological dieties.  And once he moves to thought process then guru sahibs says ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ thus 8.4 millions traits are not created by God but our manh and ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ the food to transform all these traits is divine message  as gurbani says 'sarab rog ka aukhad naam'. In next line ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ  over here ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ is of manh thus again stands for thought process is transformed all with the grace of divine intellect.

ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥

The beauty of unique methodology adopted by guru sahib is that he starts with God but reverts back on himself because ultimate aim of guru sahib was to fix mind to be truthful.* 
*
I invite comments on above.


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## Original

japjisahib04 said:


> I was going through the following pankties and was wondering 'rizk' in following pankties, is it the food for manh and or body? And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates with God or with our manh. And who created Brahma, Vishnu whose mind was intoxicated by emotional attachment. Will God create such things or is it our manh, thus brahma throughout gurbani stands for our thought process and not mythological dieties.  And once he moves to thought process then guru sahibs says ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ thus 8.4 millions traits are not created by God but our manh and ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ the food to transform all these traits is divine message  as gurbani says 'sarab rog ka aukhad naam'. In next line ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ  over here ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ is of manh thus again stands for thought process is transformed all with the grace of divine intellect.
> 
> ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
> ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
> ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
> ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥
> ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥
> 
> The beauty of unique methodology adopted by guru sahib is that he starts with God but reverts back on himself because ultimate aim of guru sahib was to fix mind to be truthful.*
> *
> I invite comments on above.



Japjisahib Ji
I respond to your enquiries in blue:

I was going through the following pankties and was wondering 'rizk' in following pankties, is it the food
Rizk in this instance is food for body
for manh and or body? And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates
with God or with our manh. And
with God [you could read oopai in this instance to mean, creator/preserver. In other instances it could be read as, solution/problem - emphasis on solution as a rebuttal to a concern. This is poetry, the writer will use mix of situations to put his view across]
who created Brahma, Vishnu whose mind was intoxicated by emotional attachment. Will God create
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are offspring's of Shakti [Energy]. This is the Hindu Trinity, pauri 29 Of Jap Ji Sahib put's them in an adjective context to advance flow and rhythm of stream
such things or is it our manh, thus brahma throughout gurbani stands for our thought process and not
Guru Nanak moved away from these entities [Trinity] and formed above them - IK ON KAR, because these are perishable and Ikonkar is imperishable
mythological dieties. And once he moves to thought process then guru sahibs says ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ thus 8.4 millions traits are not created by God but our manh and ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ the food to transform all these traits is divine message as gurbani says 'sarab rog ka aukhad naam'.
Accept it as an ideology [8.4 june] to help you understand Gurbani, otherwise look at it as "evolution" [growing in spirituality and in intelligence]. In today's understanding 8.4 june is modern day theory of evolution [only as reference]
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥

The beauty of unique methodology adopted by guru sahib is that he starts with God but reverts back on himself because ultimate aim of guru sahib was to fix mind to be truthful. 
This is how you read into it [subjective]. Guru Ji starts of praising "objectively" [nirgun] of the wonders God has done, creation and preservation and then homes in Waheguru [subjectively, sargun] to say, "hey Waheguru Ji - tera hi ha sub kush"
I invite comments on above.

Japjisahib Ji - It is interesting to know our descent as a race to make sense of who we are. 

When you study Race n Sex - you begin to discover the descent of man and get a better picture of Human Exodus. Our ancestral roots will help build a picture of our culture, tradition, custom and system of belief. This will paint a picture of Baba Nanak and other writers of SGGSJ to give a social perspective from which we can deduce, infer and imagine the conditions prevalent at the times in which they lived and how "they" saw "reality".

Gurbani for the Gurus and Bhagats was "Romeo and Juilet" - true love - story of separation - atman parmatma.

*


*


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## japjisahib04

Original said:


> Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are offspring's of Shakti [Energy]. This is the Hindu Trinity, pauri 29 Of Jap Ji Sahib put's them in an adjective context to advance flow and rhythm of stream


While interpreting gurbani we should never forget the fundamental, 'jo brahmandai soi pindai' whatever vocabulary relating with other religious beliefs guru sahib have used, how we can apply them to our inner state of mind



Original said:


> Rizk in this instance is food for body


My understanding of rizk for manh comes by reading, 'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥



Original said:


> And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates
> with God or with our manh. And
> with God [you could read oopai in this instance to mean, creator/preserver. In other instances it could be read as, solution/problem - emphasis on solution as a rebuttal to a concern. This is poetry, the writer will use mix of situations to put his view across. Accept it as an ideology [8.4 june] to help you understand Gurbani, otherwise look at it as "evolution" [growing in spirituality and in intelligence]. In today's understanding 8.4 june is modern day theory of evolution [only as reference]


 Again since God creations are infinite tera ant n jaey lakhiya thus we cannot limit his creation into 8.4 million junes whereas yes manh creations can be measured.

This is my understanding I could be wrong too


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## Original

japjisahib04 said:


> While interpreting gurbani we should never forget the fundamental, 'jo brahmandai soi pindai' whatever vocabulary relating with other religious beliefs guru sahib have used, how we can apply them to our inner state of mind
> 
> My understanding of rizk for manh comes by reading, 'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥
> 
> Again since God creations are infinite tera ant n jaey lakhiya thus we cannot limit his creation into 8.4 million junes whereas yes manh creations can be measured.
> 
> This is my understanding I could be wrong too



Japjisahib Ji

Gurbani is universal and is expressed from a viewpoint of both subjectivity [sargun] and objectivity [nirgun].

The "Rizk" used in the earlier stanza on page 1403 of SGGSJ was within that context of the meaning conferred, that is, food. The Rizk you're referring to now, on page 1429 of SGGSJ is within a different context. Here [1429] the writer is referring to the delicacy of food [vastu] which is placed in a platter [thal]. In other words, on page 1403 the writer is appreciating the provider [God] for providing food [Rizk] for creation and on page 1429 the writer is saying, "look human soul, there are 3 delicate dishes, truth, contentment and divine wisdom. Above the three is placed Amrit. He who eats will be saved".

The context in which food [Rizk] has been used by the writers to advance their viewpoint is different.

Sikhism is not rigid in principle, it is a way of life based on profound thought process and practical experience of life.

As a religion it can be divided into three categories: doctrinal, practical and emotional. The three interact with one another and must reflect a balanced approach, that is to say, you cannot just be emotional and not practical. Much of Sikhi is taken on emotional and doctrinal level when it should be taken to account for the three fundamentals interacting and working together to produce harmonious life and not independently gauged.

The beauty of Gurbani is that all the writers discuss practically the above 3 aspects independently at various places. They all inspire the human soul to do good deeds, encourages it to gain experience and cultivate maturity within belief. The basic idea underlying all this is, humankind's own faith. In other words, humankind will be able to have faith in God only if it has faith in themselves. Religion intervenes to advance this, to secure and connect the individual soul for a deeper and a fuller experience. 

Gurbani is the light of life and must be accepted as such so to effect balanced composite direction to individuals life.

In my personal view, to get the full flavour of Gurbani is to know something about the writer, the writer's social, personal, emotional, political and religious inclinations. Human history helps us to understand our own bearings so that we can relate to a particular culture at a particular time and place in human civilisation. Did we [Sikh] always live in Punjab ? What and who were the Indus Valley people? Who were the Aryans who brought with them Hinduism into the Northern plains of India, in which lived the Sikh Gurus ?

These kind of questions helps one to understand the conditions within which subject matters were found and are now treasured in the living God of the Sikhs - SGGSJ.

Much obliged !

Good day


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## japjisahib04

Original said:


> n other words, on page 1403 the writer is appreciating the provider [God] for providing food [Rizk] for creation and on page 1429 the writer is saying, "look human soul, there are 3 delicate dishes, truth, contentment and divine wisdom. Above the three is placed Amrit. He who eats will be saved".


Dear Original,
Thanks for your input but when I look at the sequence of sabds on whole of page 1403 and after, I see the topic in sequence is concerning kaam krodh lobh and not sustenance for health.  Further simple question 'is God providing sustenance for us human being' or is it because of the wisdom bestowed upon and our efforts that we generate food by killings millions of insects through pesticide. Guru sahib clearly says, 'ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ SGGS 374 what message do you take from this pankti. It is all hukam which is prevailing throughout and us human's intelligence that is generating enough food.

Further we daily read in Japjisahib, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ - Now what is He giving that we really got weary of receiving His gifts. If we take the meaning of 'thak pae as tired of receiving of foods' then it contradicts 'bhukhiya bukh n utra jai banna puriya bhar' as 'trishna virlai kee hi bhujee rai, Guru sahib says it is wrong even to think that appetite for hunger of status, greatness, commendation, money, even our belly and beauty could ever be quenched even by piling up loads of worldly riches of countless worlds or reaching to the level of Bill Gates, as hunger of mind is wealth and beauty which is limitless and is insatiable, and thus the desire of the hunger to experience God remains a dream. It means in traditional interpretation either gurbani is contradictory or something wrong with our understanding. Even otherwise gurbani is for our spiritual upliftment to create harmony and not worldly gifts. Thus I take the meaning 'his grace of spiritual wisdom is continuously raining and whosoever, ' ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਜੋ ਭਾਡਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ thus mind is not stablised if our vessel is unclean and upside down.


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## Original

japjisahib04 said:


> Dear Original,
> Thanks for your input but when I look at the sequence of sabds on whole of page 1403 and after, I see the topic in sequence is concerning kaam krodh lobh and not sustenance for health.  Further simple question 'is God providing sustenance for us human being' or is it because of the wisdom bestowed upon and our efforts that we generate food by killings millions of insects through pesticide. Guru sahib clearly says, 'ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ SGGS 374 what message do you take from this pankti. It is all hukam which is prevailing throughout and us human's intelligence that is generating enough food.
> 
> Further we daily read in Japjisahib, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ - Now what is He giving that we really got weary of receiving His gifts. If we take the meaning of 'thak pae as tired of receiving of foods' then it contradicts 'bhukhiya bukh n utra jai banna puriya bhar' as 'trishna virlai kee hi bhujee rai, Guru sahib says it is wrong even to think that appetite for hunger of status, greatness, commendation, money, even our belly and beauty could ever be quenched even by piling up loads of worldly riches of countless worlds or reaching to the level of Bill Gates, as hunger of mind is wealth and beauty which is limitless and is insatiable, and thus the desire of the hunger to experience God remains a dream. It means in traditional interpretation either gurbani is contradictory or something wrong with our understanding. Even otherwise gurbani is for our spiritual upliftment to create harmony and not worldly gifts. Thus I take the meaning 'his grace of spiritual wisdom is continuously raining and whosoever, ' ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਜੋ ਭਾਡਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ thus mind is not stablised if our vessel is unclean and upside down.




Japjisahib Ji

Once upon a time, when we were illiterate [here I'm suggesting the vast majority of the Punjabi population at the times when ascribe was going on] the guru's written word was taken as sacred, true and implicitly believed. It wasn't down to any qualifications or conditions. Humankind then and now excell in all frontiers on the very principle of "believing" it - unconditionally.

Gurbani is poetic - analysing it using academic criteria is acceptable provided it is done methodically. Correct interpretation [pls read my past texts on this thread] supported by full explanation is a relatively short analytical approach which describes the possible meanings and relationships of the words, images, and other small units that make up Gurbani. This then helps in an effective way for a reader to connect to its underlying meaning/plot and conflicts with its structural features. 

For example, consider Jap Ji Sahib as a dramatic situation in which a new beginning [ideology] is to take shape and the proponent, Guru Nanak addresses his audience with a view to "unravel" the otherwise shrouded in mystery the Hindu ideology. How he does it and what he uses to put his ideas together is a skill. It requires on the readers part to know something about the time in which it was written and the social circumstances surrounding, but more importantly the "subject matter" the proponent is trying to advance. Caution need to be exercised at all times that there is an element of "divine intervention" where the subject matter must be taken out of context and revered as true.

As an overview, Jap Ji Sahib can be split into three subsections:

1. *God*: his nature, character, identity, creation and his manifestations 
2. *Humankind*: relationship and realisation of God and its place within the 
    workings of the cosmos
3. *Universe*: deterministically working with the ability to afford relative freedom of 
     the will to achieve a teleological end via morality.

What you've  cited above ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ must be read within the context of God [1] to effect its proper interpretation. Here Guru Nanak is telling the audience of his Satnam in terms of giver [God] of food and consumer [Humankind]. The image intended to portray by Nanak is to show the audience the greatness of Waheguru [meaning, so great is Nanak's God that it keeps feeding endlessly and never running short of supply, but the consumers do end up getting tired].

The gist of what I'm saying is to perhaps ask relevant questions in order to grasp meaning and intent of the writer. And, sometimes it helps if the questions were:

1. What is being advanced ?
2 What conflicts if any [e.g. Guru Nanak tells the audience in pauri 3 to 7 about 
   purity and impunity with a view to sway them over to his path from the traditional 
   Hindu practice] ?
3. What is the theme ? 
4. Who is the writer? 
5. Why is he writing and what are his reasons for writing ?

To get the beauty of Jap Ji Sahib look at the form Nanak used - question and answer. Then look at the designed parts, namely how Nanak dramatises conflicts of ideas in language [metaphor and simle]. By concentrating on the parts, we develop our understanding of the Nanak's intended structure, and we gather support and evidence for our interpretations. 

Sir, no pen can capture its true significance no matter how much we analyse. Take Gurbani as food for the soul and leave the mind locked up in closet somewhere.

Many thanks


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## Parma

From my perspective of understanding the gurbani and concept of reincarnation it is this. If we are an energy; I would use electricity as a metaphor. When you switch it on according to the appliance you become apart of the process. Leave it still an that energy can transform into numerous waves an beacons that carry the flow of the current in mind.


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## Ishna

Does Sikhi believe in Hell?

And is it possible to believe in Hell and reincarnation at the same time?

Because Gurbani speaks of both.

It also tells us we won't get this opportunity again...  so is it full of contradictions?


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## japjisahib04

Ishna said:


> And is it possible to believe in Hell and reincarnation at the same time? Because Gurbani speaks of both. It also tells us we won't get this opportunity again... so is it full of contradictions?


Gurbani guides us on a unique path and there is no contradiction only condition that it needs to be understood in humility without unbiased in netural state of mind. Only way to reconcile these positions which are at the opposite side of spectrum is context of relative and absolute and ultimately shift of perception, transcendence to absolute reality otherwise one may feel doubts/feel contradictions regarding positions held in both compositions.

You please list those pankties where you will there is contradiction and I will try to clarify.


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## Harkiran Kaur

Exactly this!!!! If there is only ONE in existence, then ALL of us... we are not really the individuals we think we are!  We are just another manifestation of the ONE. When people think of reincarnation, they think of a separate 'soul' an individual which is reincarnated as that same individual soul, different from other souls going through the same thing.  What I get from Gurbani is that these characters we are playing right now, are not really who we are.  There is only ONE entity - ONE consciousness of which we are ALL a part of.  The reincarnation is in playing the part of another character, but the actor behind us all is the same ONE actor.  This is a dream of the Creator, and we are the dream characters.  But all of us, the awareness, the 'I AM' behind each and every one of us, the SAME ONE.  

Since the word 'pragmatic' keeps coming up over and over here... pragmatism for me has led me to this deduction - reading Gurbani and also having a working knowledge of quantum physics which seems to suggest that in fact we are all ONE conscious energy field.  I know a few on here will say their pragmatism has led them some other direction.  I don't care... my pragmatism has shown me this truth.



Sherdil said:


> Perhaps some thought needs to be given towards what exactly is being reincarnated. Is it the individual or the One?
> 
> Remember this shabadh? GGS page 736:
> 
> *ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧
> रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १
> Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1
> Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House:
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> 
> ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
> बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥
> Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
> The actor stages the play,
> 
> ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
> नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥
> Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
> playing the many characters in different costumes;
> 
> ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
> सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥
> Sāŉg uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
> but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,
> 
> ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
> तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥
> Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
> and then he is one, and only one. ||1||
> 
> ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
> कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥
> Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
> How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?
> 
> ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||
> 
> ਜਲ ਤੇ ਊਠਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥
> जल ते ऊठहि अनिक तरंगा ॥
> Jal ṯe ūṯẖėh anik ṯarangā.
> Countless waves rise up from the water.
> 
> ਕਨਿਕ ਭੂਖਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
> कनिक भूखन कीने बहु रंगा ॥
> Kanik bẖūkẖan kīne baho rangā.
> Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.
> 
> ਬੀਜੁ ਬੀਜਿ ਦੇਖਿਓ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥
> बीजु बीजि देखिओ बहु परकारा ॥
> Bīj bīj ḏekẖi▫o baho parkārā.
> I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted -
> 
> ਫਲ ਪਾਕੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
> फल पाके ते एकंकारा ॥२॥
> Fal pāke ṯe ekankārā. ||2||
> when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||
> 
> ਸਹਸ ਘਟਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥
> सहस घटा महि एकु आकासु ॥
> Sahas gẖatā mėh ek ākās.
> The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,
> 
> ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਓਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
> घट फूटे ते ओही प्रगासु ॥
> Gẖat fūte ṯe ohī pargās.
> but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.
> 
> ਭਰਮ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
> भरम लोभ मोह माइआ विकार ॥
> Bẖaram lobẖ moh mā▫i▫ā vikār.
> Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.
> 
> ਭ੍ਰਮ ਛੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
> भ्रम छूटे ते एकंकार ॥३॥
> Bẖaram cẖẖūte ṯe ekankār. ||3||
> Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||
> 
> ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
> ओहु अबिनासी बिनसत नाही ॥
> Oh abẖināsī binsaṯ nāhī.
> He is imperishable; He will never pass away.
> 
> ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
> ना को आवै ना को जाही ॥
> Nā ko āvai nā ko jāhī.
> He does not come, and He does not go.
> 
> ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥
> गुरि पूरै हउमै मलु धोई ॥
> Gur pūrai ha▫umai mal ḏẖo▫ī.
> The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego.
> 
> ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
> कहु नानक मेरी परम गति होई ॥४॥१॥
> Kaho Nānak merī param gaṯ ho▫ī. ||4||1||
> Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1||*
> 
> The same life-force appears as a snake, a bird, a plant, a fish, etc.


----------



## Harry Haller

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Exactly this!!!! If there is only ONE in existence, then ALL of us... we are not really the individuals we think we are!  We are just another manifestation of the ONE. When people think of reincarnation, they think of a separate 'soul' an individual which is reincarnated as that same individual soul, different from other souls going through the same thing.  What I get from Gurbani is that these characters we are playing right now, are not really who we are.  There is only ONE entity - ONE consciousness of which we are ALL a part of.  The reincarnation is in playing the part of another character, but the actor behind us all is the same ONE actor.  This is a dream of the Creator, and we are the dream characters.  But all of us, the awareness, the 'I AM' behind each and every one of us, the SAME ONE.
> 
> Since the word 'pragmatic' keeps coming up over and over here... pragmatism for me has led me to this deduction - reading Gurbani and also having a working knowledge of quantum physics which seems to suggest that in fact we are all ONE conscious energy field.  I know a few on here will say their pragmatism has led them some other direction.  I don't care... my pragmatism has shown me this truth.



so who exactly are you? is the current persona that is writing this post relevant?


----------



## Sherdil

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Exactly this!!!! If there is only ONE in existence, then ALL of us... we are not really the individuals we think we are!  We are just another manifestation of the ONE. When people think of reincarnation, they think of a separate 'soul' an individual which is reincarnated as that same individual soul, different from other souls going through the same thing.  What I get from Gurbani is that these characters we are playing right now, are not really who we are.  There is only ONE entity - ONE consciousness of which we are ALL a part of.  The reincarnation is in playing the part of another character, but the actor behind us all is the same ONE actor.  This is a dream of the Creator, and we are the dream characters.  But all of us, the awareness, the 'I AM' behind each and every one of us, the SAME ONE.
> 
> Since the word 'pragmatic' keeps coming up over and over here... pragmatism for me has led me to this deduction - reading Gurbani and also having a working knowledge of quantum physics which seems to suggest that in fact we are all ONE conscious energy field.  I know a few on here will say their pragmatism has led them some other direction.  I don't care... my pragmatism has shown me this truth.



Harkiran ji, 

I tend to agree with most of your interpretations of gurbani. It's only when you discuss OBE's that I have to distance myself. Most people have not had these experiences. I don't believe our Gurus had these experiences. Therefore, I don't think they are necessary to further one's Sikhi. One can eradicate Haumai without having an OBE. I'm not trying to dispute the relevance of your experience, but I think it's best to discuss gurbani on level ground so that people from all walks of life can relate.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

Check out this link... I don't know how much truth is in it... but it suggests Guru Nanak Dev Ji did do Astral Projection.  http://www.wahegurunet.com/astral-plane

But any context I use OBEs referring to my experiences are just to say how I arrived at my understanding of the Universe... because they are very relevant to me.  I know others don't necessarily have the same experiences.  However, I think most anyone CAN experience OBEs if they want to. There are techniques that show how to do it.  And no they are not necessary in Sikhi.  But again, to me they are pertinent to my understanding of the Universe.


----------



## Ishna

Yikes.  Not my kind of web page.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

Ishna said:


> Yikes.  Not my kind of web page.



To each their own... but they have many good articles on there...


----------



## Ishna

Indeed, to each their own, and a very large grain of salt.


----------



## Harry Haller

Harkiran Kaur said:


> But any context I use OBEs referring to my experiences are just to say how I arrived at my understanding of the Universe...



could you apply this understanding and answer my above question please, otherwise, frankly it just makes a mockery of debate to just keep posting the same information again, and again, and again.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

harry haller said:


> could you apply this understanding and answer my above question please, otherwise, frankly it just makes a mockery of debate to just keep posting the same information again, and again, and again.


exactly... and since this was already answered many times by myself, original Ji, Chaz Ji etc it doesn't need to be said again.


----------



## Parma

harry haller said:


> so who exactly are you? is the current persona that is writing this post relevant?



Just a reply on the formation of relevance as you've viewd relevance as a word of relevance that fact lies in your personal perception of things what is relevance is it your personal insight in another's is it in each other's perceptions all sorts of relativity I say speak your mind. Sometimes relevance isn't decided by thoughts but by the cosmos itself I see your depth but the criteria isn't much thought based. If I were to say a grain of salt is as irrelevant as a debate. What say you; is even a grain of salt relevant? Would you throw away each grain you find? Then see how relevant one grain is. Is each atom relevant you do gain insight on Einstein, but not the nature of relativity lol. That's the answer to you relatively trying to find justification or relevance to your answer. Realistically it's all irrelevant so carry on good day. Yes your as irrelevant as the persona your asking that question to kind of exciting opportunity to reevaluate your own post. Lol.


----------



## Harry Haller

Parma said:


> Just a reply on the formation of relevance as you've viewd relevance as a word of relevance that fact lies in your personal perception of things what is relevance is it your personal insight in another's is it in each other's perceptions all sorts of relativity I say speak your mind. Sometimes relevance isn't decided by thoughts but by the cosmos itself I see your depth but the criteria isn't much thought based. If I were to say a grain of salt is as irrelevant as a debate. What say you; is even a grain of salt relevant? Would you throw away each grain you find? Then see how relevant one grain is. Is each atom relevant you do gain insight on Einstein, but not the nature of relativity lol. That's the answer to you relatively trying to find justification or relevance to your answer. Realistically it's all irrelevant so carry on good day. Yes your as irrelevant as the persona your asking that question to kind of exciting opportunity to reevaluate your own post. Lol.



If we look this deep, in my opinion, we miss the starving child, the rape and torture of innocents and the very beauty of the world that stands in stark duality to the ugliness.

I do not believe in fate, destiny, god like intervention or transmigration, to me, who I am is hugely relevant  as what I can see, think or do. I am always interested in others views, as mine are not absolute, we are all learning.


----------



## Harry Haller

Harkiran Kaur said:


> exactly... and since this was already answered many times by myself, original Ji, Chaz Ji etc it doesn't need to be said again.



ever read animal farm?


----------



## Pathfinder

To me personally the 8,400,000 lives seem more like the approximate number of failures - of the self, the number of times I have and continue to stumble down the well lit path as defined by the Nanak Guru's. The number could be a little lesser than the times I have, continue to,  will falter actually. I hope I don't 'die'  8,400,000 times or more really. Each time the Manmukh overpowers the Gurmukh, each time a random, stray thought that the five vices command wins I die in a sense. Each time I vow to not let it happen again I am reborn. At the rate I am going sadly I will overshoot the average number of lives I guess.

Oops ..just realised it's an old thread. No worries though, posting on the phone is easier than deleting now, lol.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

Gurbani tells us through numerous shabads that there is only ONE. This ONE is formless and is all there is. Within that one and from that one, arises forms, ALL forms. The manifest arises from the unmanifest as a dream with all it's various forms manifests from the unconscious formless consciousness. Therefore all forms ARE the ONE. That means all of us are really dream characters in the dream of only ONE dreamer, Waheguru. This changes the fundamental way that 'reincarnation' is understood. The only reason we seem separate, through duality, is the Ego which is not the true identity. The divine which lies behind every set of eyes, the 'I AM' if you will, the experiencer, is really Waheguru. The Ego (haume) identity is created out of duality and a result of this physical existence. When the body dies, the Ego identity of that lifetime dies, however, the consciousness, the experiencer does not. It's hard to imagine actually. But envision that you just awoke from an accident, with no memories of your entire life to that point. Effectively everything was erased, but there is still an awareness there. That helps to understand a little bit more. So when the physical body dies, that conscious awareness does not. I know many people will disagree with me, but I have my understanding and it's based on reading thousands of subjective near death experiences, Gurbani, kathas on gurbani on this subject, and person experiences. This is just how I have come to understand it and is what I believe Gurbani is saying. 

There is a tuk in Gurbani which says (paraphrased because I can't access srigranth.org right now) but it says as Gurmukh, when one realizes his OWN SELF, and that HE IS ME, what more is there to do or to have done?

So what exactly is being reincarnated? A drop as from the ocean? But that drop never ceases to be water even though it goes though different states of being. IN this case, that drop is conscious awareness, a small part of the doer. And Gurbani tells us there is only ONE doer.


----------



## Original

Sat Sri Akal - Sailor Sahib

I'm gonna lend you my specs to see if it stacks, get focused; here we go !


Pathfinder said:


> To me personally the 8,400,000 lives seem more like the approximate number of failures - of the self


If we turn to page 472 SGGSJ, it tells us that life started in water [ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ] and if we now turn to Charles Darwin's TOE, we find the same reference there. If that'd be correct then it follows that we've progressed and not retreated.


Pathfinder said:


> the number of times I have and continue to stumble down the well lit path as defined by the Nanak Guru's.


..they too speak of realisation in this "human" form and none of the others preceding it. Like you, who knows what perils they'd encountered before human birth.


Pathfinder said:


> The number could be a little lesser than the times I have, continue to, will falter actually.


..it is only when we fall that we learn to pick ourselves up and understand purity having experienced impurity by reason or existence. You're only human - why worry !


Pathfinder said:


> I hope I don't 'die' 8,400,000 times or more really


..dedicate 85th to the house of Nanak and rest assure guru ji will ferry you to eternity. Gurbani's terminology thus, is something like this "..jeevat mariya bhavjal tariya" [SGGSJ, 775].


Pathfinder said:


> Each time the Manmukh overpowers the Gurmukh, each time a random, stray thought that the five vices command wins I die in a sense.


..that's your perception ! learn to enjoy the amazing potentialities of the human you [meaning, manmukh] on the proviso that it will one day end and the "gurmukh" will takeover. The real journey home will begin then. So for now, spoil yourself silly on the basis its all a play and the real deal is about to kick-in - later !


Pathfinder said:


> Each time I vow to not let it happen again I am reborn.


..you seem to present a typical case of a guy who acts, reflects and evaluates ! question is, when do you get to live ?


Pathfinder said:


> At the rate I am going sadly I will overshoot the average number of lives I guess.


..hey brother, know that you're connected to the "word", meaning shabd guru *[waheguru]* only good can accrue full stop! you aren't here on your own freewill, you were gravitated to the shabd guru like flux is to the magnet, and a moth to the flame. You think you're in control, truth be told, you're not. Its that simple, but of course, the rational mind is not comfortable with that because the notion of faith [Sikh] seems to demand acceptance without any credible evidence or rational basis. There are none because Nanak's satnam doesn't exist in physical forms but in spiritual heights and since its non-matter, you'd need non-matter system of belief [Sikh] to take you there.


Pathfinder said:


> Oops ..just realised it's an old thread. No worries though, posting on the phone is easier than deleting now, lol.



..yeah, just as well, old is gold !

Enjoy the festivities -


----------



## Pathfinder

Sat Sri Akal - Veerji,



Original said:


> If we turn to page 472 SGGSJ, it tells us that life started in water [ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ] and if we now turn to Charles Darwin's TOE, we find the same reference there. If that'd be correct then it follows that we've progressed and not retreated



Is that not evolution?. Reincarnation to me seems like a metaphor that the Nanak's used was what i was trying to say, my personal view of course



Original said:


> ..they too speak of realisation in this "human" form and none of the others preceding it. Like you, who knows what perils they'd encountered before human birth.



This life, now, that is all that concerns me - just being a good perfect human in sync with the Hukum as stated by the Nanak's. Yesterday, tomorrow does not matter. Just for the moment is all i am worried and concerned about. I am not of the opinion that the Human form is a privilege or that this is the only or best way to attain the final merger for even animals can attain merger with Waheguru. Human form is not a privilege but one of the toughest to merge in the Hukum as it appears to me. Living in Hukum is what is required and the rest is irrespective of form. This Human form is more challenging though, it corrupts easily. My personal view again of course. I cannot quote any shabad in support of this but this is what i feel.



Original said:


> ..it is only when we fall that we learn to pick ourselves up and understand purity having experienced impurity by reason or existence. You're only human - why worry !



I do not want to goof up repeatedly at least in front of my Commander. He has given me a simple task and a checklist with an instruction manual. He is a very forgiving Captain but that gives me no reason to seek excuses for my frailty.



Original said:


> ..dedicate 85th to the house of Nanak and rest assure guru ji will ferry you to eternity. Gurbani's terminology thus, is something like this "..jeevat mariya bhavjal tariya" [SGGSJ, 775].



my leaky boat in the middle of the ocean with no sight of land terrifies me sometimes, yes Waheguru plugs the breaches in my hull like you stated rightly



Original said:


> ..that's your perception ! learn to enjoy the amazing potentialities of the human you [meaning, manmukh] on the proviso that it will one day end and the "gurmukh" will takeover. The real journey home will begin then. So for now, spoil yourself silly on the basis its all a play and the real deal is about to kick-in - later !



Tragically, I disagree strongly. To me humankind is the most ungrateful creation of Waheguru  and one that has run away furthest from the Hukum. Human are amazingly the darkest to me, you see light in the human clan and i see an abyss of darkness. Very few exceptions, very few. To me, there is no later, if i can somehow crawl back into the Hukum - it has to be now, right now and stay there as long as i can or else i keep staring at the withered signboard which says - Never.



Original said:


> ..you seem to present a typical case of a guy who acts, reflects and evaluates ! question is, when do you get to live ?




Off late, i Live during the simran in the amritvela - at least i feel alive then so i know i am living. Other times i could not be dead maybe. Yes, i want to feel alive more. I found this amazing Wahe guru simran, shall post the link. i listen to it endlessly. it keeps ringing in my soul all day and night off late.
here it is  






Original said:


> ..hey brother, know that you're connected to the "word", meaning shabd guru *[waheguru]* only good can accrue full stop! you aren't here on your own freewill, you were gravitated to the shabd guru like flux is to the magnet, and a moth to the flame. You think you're in control, truth be told, you're not. Its that simple, but of course, the rational mind is not comfortable with that because the notion of faith [Sikh] seems to demand acceptance without any credible evidence or rational basis. There are none because Nanak's satnam doesn't exist in physical forms but in spiritual heights and since its non-matter, you'd need non-matter system of belief [Sikh] to take you there.



true, no wonder i seek the nitty gritty of sailing my boat from the wonderful sangat here. so much i dont understand and so much that i misunderstand. this much i know - as long as i stay on this road, endless kind souls will give me a lift towards Waheguru. So many like you and others here veerji have been doing it already.

WGJDK WGJDF


----------



## Original

Pathfinder said:


> Is that not evolution


..that is very much evolution ! but like all things, "change" is fundamental and evolution is no exception. It's time for the theory of Darwinian evolution to "evolve" to Nanak's evolution, meaning, human transformation to spiritual through a process called Sikh. Nanak says, 'as you think so you become', think good therefore and become good. Moreover, human to surrender mind to an ideology of metaphysical existence.


Pathfinder said:


> Reincarnation to me seems like a metaphor


..that's one way of looking at it, albeit, inconsistent with ideological and theoretical thinking of the faith Sikh. I think what is important here is that you're making sense of it in your own way - great !


Pathfinder said:


> This life, now, that is all that concerns me


..okay, but surely this "now" is preceded and succeeded at either end by something, is it not ?


Pathfinder said:


> just being a good perfect human in sync with the Hukum as stated by the Nanak's.


..being "good n perfect" by Nanak's standard is acceptable insofar, a belief system, but what of the non-believers, what standard must they accord to since morality isn't objective? And, who sets those standards?


Pathfinder said:


> Yesterday, tomorrow does not matter


..think of them as states of being, comparable to the three states of consciousness, conscious [today], subconscious [yday] and unconscious [tmoro]. And, since there exists a relationship [general relativity] of a liner cause-and-effect mechanism, yesterday n tomorrow  form part of the human experience. Pathfinder today is different from the Pathfinder yday [say 10 years back]. Spiritual and intellectual maturity comes with the passage of time, hence,* yesterday* and *tomorrow* indispensable. Moral being, yday n tomorrow are part of the human condition that cannot be eliminated, but yes, "transcended".


Pathfinder said:


> Just for the moment is all i am worried and
> concerned about.


..from a spiritual perspective that's well n good, but because you're on the physical plane [Earth] you're chained to the evolutionary modes of perception, conception, space, time, cause n effect. As part of the human condition you cannot shake them off even if you wanted to. The question here would be to ask is, what "moment" ?.  Nanak would have us believe of the moment where there is none of the above baggage, meaning, fourth state of being. That of course, is a state of the contemplative you, meaning, the transcendence.


Pathfinder said:


> I am not of the opinion that the Human form is a privilege


..without making it a game of words, let us understand the word "privilege" and see why Sikh thought render human birth a privilege.

Given there exists a *general* relationship between the creator [Sovereign God, meaning, ruler] and creation [say humans, subordinates], by virtue thereof a *"particular"* relationship of master-servant comes into operation automatically. That is not to say, such a relationship doesn't exist between the creator n the rest of creation, no, but as far as we know, no other creature "willfully" binds itself to such subordinated disposition. Hence, human birth a *privilege* of a kind to serve the Creator, from a theoretical perspective.


Pathfinder said:


> or that this is the only or best way to attain the final merger


In the Sikh sense of the word merger would mean "liberation" from what is otherwise a prison [this world]. Theoretically speaking, Sikhism doctrine is of a teleological view, both purpose-meaning of life are clearly defined.


Pathfinder said:


> for even animals can attain merger with Waheguru


..only if they knew of separation in the spiritual sense of the word separation?


Pathfinder said:


> Human form is not a privilege but one of the toughest to merge in the Hukum as it appears to me. Living in Hukum is what is required and the rest is irrespective of form. This Human form is more challenging though, it corrupts easily. My personal view again of course. I cannot quote any shabad in support of this but this is what i feel.


...page 644 of SGGSJ, think human form a privilege to merge with "amrit" within, the same is denied to animals on account deficient conglomeration [ghar he main amrit bharpoor ha......].


Pathfinder said:


> I do not want to goof up repeatedly at least in front of my Commander. He has given me a simple task and a checklist with an instruction manual. He is a very forgiving Captain but that gives me no reason to seek excuses for my frailty.


..what if you are the commander and this perhaps is a refreshers course ?


Pathfinder said:


> To me humankind is the most ungrateful creation of Waheguru


..in that case, let us not exacerbate any further and call it a day since humankind is depreciative of such an endowment.


Pathfinder said:


> Human are amazingly the darkest to me, you see light in the human clan and i see an abyss of darkness.


..but we both see, right ? wear my shades [khalsa] and see the difference. Just as a 3D movie cannot be truly viewed without the necessary apparatus neither can life be seen from within a perspective that has special choreographic effects.


Pathfinder said:


> To me, there is no later, if i can somehow crawl back into the Hukum - it has to be now, right now and stay there as long as i can or else i keep staring at the withered signboard which says - Never.


...its about time to become "hukam"- hence, the merger. This would take away the duality of you n me, this n that and just be "Pathfinder", noun [meaning, nam] and no more the adjective, "finding".


Pathfinder said:


> Off late, i Live during the simran in the amritvela - at least i feel alive then so i know i am living. Other times i could not be dead maybe. Yes, i want to feel alive more. I found this amazing Wahe guru simran, shall post the link. i listen to it endlessly. it keeps ringing in my soul all day and night off late.


..this is a blessing [meaning, gur Prasad] by the grace of Guru !


Pathfinder said:


> true, no wonder i seek the nitty gritty of sailing my boat from the wonderful sangat here. so much i dont understand and so much that i misunderstand. this much i know - as long as i stay on this road, endless kind souls will give me a lift towards Waheguru. So many like you and others here veerji have been doing it already.


...the beautiful you will see the beautiful me because the inner eye is opening. It is the connection with the word that manifests in such choreographically designed environment. There is value to be had in what you write, meaning, you're sum1 special.

Take care - until we communicate again !
CIAO


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## RD1

I am undecided at this point on whether reincarnation/transmigration is "for real" or metaphorical. It is repeatedly mentioned in SGGS ji, and it is mentioned how this human form is finally our chance to become one with the Creator. 

I wonder though, is our desire to reject the idea of reincarnation a product of "logical scientific thinking?" Is reincarnation just too "magical" and "illogical," and so we reject it? Is this a result of conforming to westernized fundamentalist thought? Our human minds have a limited scope. We are not capable of perceiving and understanding everything in the universe. Our small minds have their limits. Perhaps reincarnation in the literal sense does exist, who knows. There are actually scientists who are studying reincarnation and think it does in fact exist.


----------



## Pathfinder

RD1 said:


> I wonder though, is our desire to reject the idea of reincarnation a product of "logical scientific thinking?" Is reincarnation just too "magical" and "illogical," and so we reject it? Is this a result of conforming to westernized fundamentalist thought? Our human minds have a limited scope. We are not capable of perceiving and understanding everything in the universe. Our small minds have their limits. Perhaps reincarnation in the literal sense does exist, who knows. There are actually scientists who are studying reincarnation and think it does in fact exist.



the basis of my rejection in the literal sense does not have any basis in logically or scientifically reasons. i live in an offgrid farm for almost half a year now. i never had any true love for science most of the time - anyway, lol. 

It just feels so - just a feeling. i feel it is the journey and the stumble really which is being referred to. 

A metaphor. I do not know how to say it or express it really - ok, try this -  Oh death, come to me - i pray, and stay - by my side ( oh life - what if, are you?  i swear, longed for you - so long).. 
is the angel here happy, sad, broken or has found some deep profound revelation is open to you. nothing you can say of her is wrong. 

do i feel proud that i am human?. after all if this is the only way to a merger i must be superior to the cutie cutie doggy of mine in a sense. the little four legged kiddo wags his tail, the one who wakes me up at amritvela daily without fail, the one who loves me unconditionally. without any conditions he loves me a thousand or million fold times more than i love the Gurus, the Nanaks. All he wants is to be with me, in my lap, at my feet, even if he cannot see me - just knowing that i am around is comforting to him. i know the Guru is around me at all times but i am never comforted in half the way the waggy waggy kiddo is, lol.. so when i am told i am a superior species, i cringe at the even the remote possibility of such a thought. If between my poppy and me there is a curse, i believe it is inflicted on me. The little fellow lives in Hukam naturally. i hug him and he wags his bushy tail. i ignore him and he wags his bushy tail. his wagging is because of his own happiness which is never dependent on my actions. he loves the rains, loves the beach, loves chasing cats, loves this, loves that, loves everything,lol. at night he barks at things only a 'tailman' can see, lol. he forces even non-existent love for him out of me, something or rather something so far from a fact true of me at least - i cannot even awaken or rightly express my love for my Guru because i falter in the rehat. sorry humans, i disagree to the fact that we are superior. my little doggy does not need extra guidance as he lives in the hukam perfectly. its me who does - us. Ten Nanak's , one autobiography of guidance and directions and still we are lost - Superior, lol. Most of the clan cannot wake up physically at amritvela, forget spirutually, lol. 

besides, who needs proof, at least sailors - do not. i lived on the oceans since i was 18. spent two decades and more and never saw one but i know mermaids exist, lol - she camouflaged herself as a dolphin and followed me in the pacific, lol. i met angels in my life - but they hide their wings you know, lol. the world is magical. for example when you cross the equator, leave behind the horse latitudes, go to a off the grid place to load ore, a place -  called 'red-dog', lol (its in Alaska) you realize nothing is illogical. the world is magical, so surreal that you realize the only truth can be Waheguru, nothing else. Nothing else is so full of magic, nothing else is so logical.   

like i said before, each time i falter i am dead, each time i vow to not falter again i live. that is reincarnation to me. i would feel blessed if it took just 8400000 lives to reach a state of mind which is not a fleeting stay or a one second connection of bliss to the wondrous domain -  as human i know how frail i am.

literal reincarnation does not bother or concern me, but i just do not subscribe to the superior species theory. 

lol, did i get touchy - lol, if i sound so - i dont know why or what for honestly. The Nagar Kirtan was beautiful today and we spent most of the day at the Gurudwara. was a blessed day really. lol, 

RD1 Gursikh Ji - you are one of the nicest persons around and a special one because you are way too beautiful, clear and educative in your posts. 
to be shamelessly honest - you remind me of the 'RD 350', lol - google that, i wont let you in on this one. I longed, i loved, i rode, i lived - before we parted, lol. i love your username for that really - the sweet reminders it ignites of a long gone era. 

maybe my four legged kid wagged and hugged me a while back that i got all misty eyed and sentimental i guess. whatever, poppy is sleeping so majestically knowing he will be taken care of - wish i could do the same, after all the Guru is so much better at taking care than this mortal, lol.  

besides literal reincarnation seems so un- sikh like to me - here and now is  what Sikhi is all about. yes - the body recycles, flesh to mud and thus a million forms before it becomes flesh again, maybe - i am guessing this. 

as a Sikh it should not even bother one - reincarnation. its irrelevant really. 
i was alone they said - when the blade sliced my wrist,... truth is, i was alone for so long...
sorry i do not know how to express it in prose, besides its a metaphor...

That was so offtopic and so long, sorry all, lol. guilty as charged. My poppy alarm is on full volume now, lol...take care all.


----------



## Tejwant Singh

RD1 said:


> I am undecided at this point on whether reincarnation/transmigration is "for real" or metaphorical. It is repeatedly mentioned in SGGS ji, and it is mentioned how this human form is finally our chance to become one with the Creator.
> 
> I wonder though, is our desire to reject the idea of reincarnation a product of "logical scientific thinking?" Is reincarnation just too "magical" and "illogical," and so we reject it? Is this a result of conforming to westernized fundamentalist thought? Our human minds have a limited scope. We are not capable of perceiving and understanding everything in the universe. Our small minds have their limits. Perhaps reincarnation in the literal sense does exist, who knows. There are actually scientists who are studying reincarnation and think it does in fact exist.



RD1 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Reincarnation is the well ingrained belief in Hinduism but rejected at the same time by our Sikh Gurus. Please read the whole Shabad/s about it and check the last lines to see if Sikhi accepts it or not. The sad part is that most of the Sikhs do not read the whole Shabads and do away with one liner or two in the case regarding reincarnation and what Gurbani talks about it. There are many threads regarding this. Please check them out and share your views.


----------



## Original

Good morning Everyone - have a wonderful start to 2017 !


RD1 said:


> I am undecided at this point on whether reincarnation/transmigration is "for real" or metaphorical. It is repeatedly mentioned in SGGS ji, and it is mentioned how this human form is finally our chance to become one with the Creator.


..think of it evolution ! doesn't the theory of evolution tell you [Darwin] that life started in water and if that'd be correct then doesn't everything up until now [human] make sense scientifically of the term "reincarnation" ? And, isn't human evolution a linear progression, in that, we were small brained primates who once climbed trees and are now on the verge of colonising the universe, wow ?

Soul [atma] search will reveal a great deal for the journey is of the *soul* and not of the mind and the body. SGGSJ, 1429 directs the soul to that end...thal vich tin vastu...*vichar !*

Now, consider the following within the spiritual perspective:

*ad sach, jugad sach, ha bhi sach, nanak hosi b sach *[jap ji sahib] *! *What Nanak is saying is that, sat [*truth]* has always been here [present] and its you the human who in the process of evolution [reincarnation] have now come to realise and understand the "akath katha" [story of creation - soul] and are able to do something about it, as a result. It is in this regard the human is credited with the capacity [brain power] to rationalise, discipline and make amends accordingly to exit the physical plane for good and become 1 with Waheguru. Moreover, this is the feature within Sikhism that allows the soul to transcend to spiritual heights way beyond the fetters of time n space where none of this yesterday and tomorrow exist.

Enjoy the day !


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

RD1 said:


> I am undecided at this point on whether reincarnation/transmigration is "for real" or metaphorical. It is repeatedly mentioned in SGGS ji, and it is mentioned how this human form is finally our chance to become one with the Creator.
> 
> I wonder though, is our desire to reject the idea of reincarnation a product of "logical scientific thinking?" Is reincarnation just too "magical" and "illogical," and so we reject it? Is this a result of conforming to westernized fundamentalist thought? Our human minds have a limited scope. We are not capable of perceiving and understanding everything in the universe. Our small minds have their limits. Perhaps reincarnation in the literal sense does exist, who knows. There are actually scientists who are studying reincarnation and think it does in fact exist.



Please read my previous posts on a different way to view transmigration. When we realize that "he is me' then we understand. There is no me or you which is reincarnating. What we associate with our identity in this life is the haume the ego and that dies. But the conscious awareness behind the ego identity does not die and that is what goes on. That conscious awareness is the same ONE in all. Like one dreamer dreaming and we are all the dream characters but there is only the one dreamer who is controlling it all. That's why everything is his 'hukam'.


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## Harkiran Kaur

Original said:


> Good morning Everyone - have a wonderful start to 2017 !
> 
> ..think of it evolution ! doesn't the theory of evolution tell you [Darwin] that life started in water and if that'd be correct then doesn't everything up until now [human] make sense scientifically of the term "reincarnation" ? And, isn't human evolution a linear progression, in that, we were small brained primates who once climbed trees and are now on the verge of colonising the universe, wow ?
> 
> Soul [atma] search will reveal a great deal for the journey is of the *soul* and not of the mind and the body. SGGSJ, 1429 directs the soul to that end...thal vich tin vastu...*vichar !*
> 
> Now, consider the following within the spiritual perspective:
> 
> *ad sach, jugad sach, ha bhi sach, nanak hosi b sach *[jap ji sahib] *! *What Nanak is saying is that, sat [*truth]* has always been here [present] and its you the human who in the process of evolution [reincarnation] have now come to realise and understand the "akath katha" [story of creation - soul] and are able to do something about it, as a result. It is in this regard the human is credited with the capacity [brain power] to rationalise, discipline and make amends accordingly to exit the physical plane for good and become 1 with Waheguru. Moreover, this is the feature within Sikhism that allows the soul to transcend to spiritual heights way beyond the fetters of time n space where none of this yesterday and tomorrow exist.
> 
> Enjoy the day !



Exactly. Evolution of the entire universe... elements, mineral, plant, animal and finally human and human is the only form capable of contemplating the very important question 'who am I and why am I here?'

I read a quote once that describes reality as the expression of the ONE conscious creator experiencing itself subjectively  through its own creation. When you are ONE there is no one else to contemplate. It's only through duality and a different perspective which that ONE can understand its own truth.


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## chazSingh

RD1 said:


> I am undecided at this point on whether reincarnation/transmigration is "for real" or metaphorical. It is repeatedly mentioned in SGGS ji, and it is mentioned how this human form is finally our chance to become one with the Creator.
> 
> I wonder though, is our desire to reject the idea of reincarnation a product of "logical scientific thinking?" Is reincarnation just too "magical" and "illogical," and so we reject it? Is this a result of conforming to westernized fundamentalist thought? Our human minds have a limited scope. We are not capable of perceiving and understanding everything in the universe. Our small minds have their limits. Perhaps reincarnation in the literal sense does exist, who knows. There are actually scientists who are studying reincarnation and think it does in fact exist.



In my opinion, in my search for self discovery.."what, who am I" it was important for me to 'realize' if i am just the body, or am 'I', the 'experiencer' something that is beyond just the physical self...will 'I' the 'experiencer' live on once the body turns to dust

Through Simran or Waheguru...Guru Ji gave us a means to realize this, experience it...provide proof to oneself...in this lifetime...

having confirmed this...then who's to say i have not taken other bodies in the past...other characters in this creation, other lifeforms...maybe i have...maybe i haven't...it's actually not so important...i feel it's more important to understand where i am now...as a person...my desires, my faults, my ego'istic nature...and moving forward with the help of Guru Ji to somewhat break free from their clutches...


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## Original

chazSingh said:


> In my opinion, in my search for self discovery.."what, who am I" it was important for me to 'realize' if i am just the body, or am 'I', the 'experiencer' something that is beyond just the physical self...will 'I' the 'experiencer' live on once the body turns to dust
> 
> Through Simran or Waheguru...Guru Ji gave us a means to realize this, experience it...provide proof to oneself...in this lifetime...
> 
> having confirmed this...then who's to say i have not taken other bodies in the past...other characters in this creation, other lifeforms...maybe i have...maybe i haven't...it's actually not so important...i feel it's more important to understand where i am now...as a person...my desires, my faults, my ego'istic nature...and moving forward with the help of Guru Ji to somewhat break free from their clutches...


Chz - too good ! beautifully put !


chazSingh said:


> ...then who's to say i have not taken other bodies in the past...other characters in this creation, other lifeforms...maybe i have...maybe i haven't...


,,you have, but you don't remember; that's because the self [kilo of nerve cells] dies in each of its life forms. The spiritual you survives the death of the physical body, bringing with it as it were, dharam [path in previous life] and karm [deeds from previous life].


chazSingh said:


> it's actually not so important


..very important because the search is on for the other half - the half you're separated from, hence the never-ending cycle. And, when you've found your other half you will come no more. Sikh ideology is to an end to reunite the separated soul with its other half - stay tuned because your other half could be a 36-26-36 and I might just have that in stock !

[Edit] - by the way, pick up that Bhulleh Shah and connect with your other half or let me have your postal address and I'll put 1 in the post for ya !

*Love n Live*


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## RD1

Pathfinder said:


> literal reincarnation does not bother or concern me, but i just do not subscribe to the superior species theory.



I agree with this. I do not believe that humans are in any way superior to any other species. This type of mindset has led to the mass destruction of the earth and many of its creatures. 



Pathfinder said:


> you remind me of the 'RD 350',



lol now that does look pretty cool! 



Pathfinder said:


> as a Sikh it should not even bother one - reincarnation. its irrelevant really.



Agreed. As Sikhs we do not live to obtain some reward in the "afterlife," but we live to cultivate the best within us - the Divine.


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## RD1

Harkiran Kaur said:


> I read a quote once that describes reality as the expression of the ONE conscious creator experiencing itself subjectively through its own creation. When you are ONE there is no one else to contemplate. It's only through duality and a different perspective which that ONE can understand its own truth.



Interesting perspective! I wonder just how much eastern religions overlap in some of their ideologies. I read a book by Alan Watts - "The book on the taboo against knowing who you are" - his philosophy is based on eastern religions, mostly Hinduism and Buddhism. What he wrote about in this book matches the perspective you have put forth.


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## Original

Good morning RD1 Ji


RD1 said:


> As Sikhs we do not live to obtain some reward in the "afterlife,"


..terminologies such as "reward, transmigration, afterlife, etc." are pretty much European expressions and not Sikh per se. Moreover, Sikh thought is absolutely clear about the moral/theological concept *"..as  ye sow, so shall ye reap",* [jo karay so bhara] meaning, law of karma is fixed ! Question of afterlife reward doesn't arise, but what does arise is the idea of the separated soul being invited to consider exiting the wheel of birth, growth, decay death and rebirth [since separation is suffering] and reunite with Waheguru indefinitely.

In my humble view, it is always advisable to have some *foundational knowledge* of Sikh Ideology and theoretical thinking in order to take on the conceptual world-view from a particular standpoint. This could then be said to have at least two important aspects. First, it is a sign of increasing intellectual maturity and second, the ability and the confidence to take sides in intellectual debates.

Much obliged !
Take care


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## RD1

Original said:


> In my humble view, it is always advisable to have some *foundational knowledge* of Sikh Ideology and theoretical thinking in order to take on the conceptual world-view from a particular standpoint. This could then be said to have at least two important aspects. First, it is a sign of increasing intellectual maturity and second, the ability and the confidence to take sides in intellectual debates.



How would you know how much foundational knowledge I or someone else may have, and how we may apply these? Are you the gatekeeper of "intellectual maturity?" We are all here to learn and explore various Sikh concepts.


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## Original

RD1 said:


> New How would you know how much foundational knowledge I or someone else may have, and how we may apply these? Are you the gatekeeper of "intellectual maturity?" We are all here to learn and explore various Sikh concepts.


RD1 Ji, you've taken it personally, I didn't mean it like that - I'm sorry ! My intentions were sincere n fruitful on account "*understanding*" concepts and not judging  intelligence. The term intellectual maturity was used in relation to demonstrating a familiarity with, and confidence in handling, the vocabulary and conceptual framework of Sikh theoretical tradition [note, understanding and not qualifications] thus, constituting as it were, compatible individuals to take part in sound arguments. It is impossible for someone brought up in European culture to appreciate Punjabi music because such music cannot mean the same to her/him as it would to a Punjabi whose been brought up in a different environment, with different values and different language. No doubt you will agree that the purpose of a piece of music is to convey the composer's emotions. But what can a European know about the Punjabi's emotions ? On that note, I cite here an example for you, which I'd like you to chew on and shop around for interpretation, theoretical framework surrounding it's construction and overall objective setting out meaning and purpose. It is: [bold].

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਸਿੰਮਲ ਰੁਖੁ ਸਰਾਇਰਾ ਅਤਿ ਦੀਰਘ ਅਤਿ ਮੁਚੁ ॥ ਓਇ ਜਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਸੇ ਕਿਤੁ ॥ ਫਲ ਫਿਕੇ ਫੁਲ ਬਕਬਕੇ ਕੰਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਹਿ ਪਤ ॥ *ਮਿਠਤੁ ਨੀਵੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਤਤੁ* ॥ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਨਿਵੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਪਰ ਕਉ ਨਿਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਧਰਿ ਤਾਰਾਜੂ ਤੋਲੀਐ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੁ ਗਉਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਦੂਣਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਜੋ ਹੰਤਾ ਮਿਰਗਾਹਿ ॥ ਸੀਸਿ ਨਿਵਾਇਐ ਕਿਆ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਰਿਦੈ ਕੁਸੁਧੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ SGGSJ, 470

Baba Nanak composed that, hunt around and see if you can find the beauty behind its construction. I'll wait n meditate until then .....

.....to be continued !

Speak soon - Ciao


----------



## Theologian

Before starting, if I disagree with an opinion I will challenge it to the best of my ability, not for my benefit, but for the benefit of all of us understanding and gaining knowledge.

Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine. Early Sikhs/Leaders were in a society where that would have affected their thinking on life. Looking at today, there is not one religion that has the same version on reincarnation, and speaking on a scientific view, a view that we can assess for ourselves, rather than a more fallible theory of big bang. Reincarnation theories of religions have shown not to fit in with the way the galaxies work. In order for there to be a reset you have to have a dissipation of hot and cold bodies in space, and that has in the last 100 years been proven false.

From a Sikh point of View, reincarnation for a lot of Sikhs is taken seriously. Where they can within seconds say Heaven is not to be taken literally. Where is the justification in that?

If this thread begins with an end judgement, then let me be clear,

In Sikhism you are only JUDGED ONCE, no 'PHYSICAL' Reincarnation. Be careful what you put forward as God. As many tend to put normal man on a high mountain rather than revering the Creator they revere the Creation, as the next early reply or two will show. I have said this before the comment comes.


Why? There are more different angles that promote one judgement, where as reincarnation is much more, proven to be fallible. If anyone wants to challenge my view on this, then I will reply to each one, as it takes time to answer each. I will give the following quote:

pig iKisAY rhxw nhI AwgY Tauru n pwie ] (28-2)
pag khisi-ai rahnaa nahee aagai tha-ur na paa-ay.
Their feet slip, and they cannot stay here any longer. And in the next world, they find no place of rest at all.
Eh vylw hiQ n AwveI AMiq gieAw pCuqwie ] (28-2)
oh vaylaa hath na aavee ant ga-i-aa pachhutaa-ay.
This opportunity shall not come again. In the end, they depart, regretting and repenting.



You only have this opportunity ONCE. I will post more if challenged.


jyhw AwieAw qyhw jwsI kir Avgx pCoqwvixAw ]2] (114-8)
jayhaa aa-i-aa tayhaa jaasee kar avgan pachhotaavani-aa. ||2||
As they came, so shall they go, regretting the mistakes they made. ||2||


jmpuir bDw duK shwhI ] (111-10)
jampur baDhaa dukh sahaahee.
Bound and gagged in the City of Death(An unrepentant sinners end), they suffer in terrible pain.
AMnw bolw ikCu ndir n AwvY mnmuK pwip pcwvixAw ]4] (111-10)
annaa bolaa kichh nadar na aavai manmukh paap pachaavani-aa. ||4||
Blind and deaf, they see nothing at all; the self-willed manmukhs rot away in sin. ||4||


_At his very last moments, one who thinks of the Lord, says Trilochan, shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.”_

_Somehow if I was a drug consuming raping murderer and thought of the Lord at the last moments of my life, I don't think I would be liberated._



_You can not have a theory of reincarnation and Heaven/Hell in the same narrative. If you do, what do you think this means?_


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

Theologian said:


> Before starting, if I disagree with an opinion I will challenge it to the best of my ability, not for my benefit, but for the benefit of all of us understanding and gaining knowledge.
> 
> Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine. Early Sikhs/Leaders were in a society where that would have affected their thinking on life. Looking at today, there is not one religion that has the same version on reincarnation, and speaking on a scientific view, a view that we can assess for ourselves, rather than a more fallible theory of big bang. Reincarnation theories of religions have shown not to fit in with the way the galaxies work. In order for there to be a reset you have to have a dissipation of hot and cold bodies in space, and that has in the last 100 years been proven false.
> 
> From a Sikh point of View, reincarnation for a lot of Sikhs is taken seriously. Where they can within seconds say Heaven is not to be taken literally. Where is the justification in that?
> 
> If this thread begins with an end judgement, then let me be clear,
> 
> In Sikhism you are only JUDGED ONCE, no 'PHYSICAL' Reincarnation. Be careful what you put forward as God. As many tend to put normal man on a high mountain rather than revering the Creator they revere the Creation, as the next early reply or two will show. I have said this before the comment comes.
> 
> 
> Why? There are more different angles that promote one judgement, where as reincarnation is much more, proven to be fallible. If anyone wants to challenge my view on this, then I will reply to each one, as it takes time to answer each. I will give the following quote:
> 
> pig iKisAY rhxw nhI AwgY Tauru n pwie ] (28-2)
> pag khisi-ai rahnaa nahee aagai tha-ur na paa-ay.
> Their feet slip, and they cannot stay here any longer. And in the next world, they find no place of rest at all.
> Eh vylw hiQ n AwveI AMiq gieAw pCuqwie ] (28-2)
> oh vaylaa hath na aavee ant ga-i-aa pachhutaa-ay.
> This opportunity shall not come again. In the end, they depart, regretting and repenting.
> 
> 
> 
> You only have this opportunity ONCE. I will post more if challenged.
> 
> 
> jyhw AwieAw qyhw jwsI kir Avgx pCoqwvixAw ]2] (114-8)
> jayhaa aa-i-aa tayhaa jaasee kar avgan pachhotaavani-aa. ||2||
> As they came, so shall they go, regretting the mistakes they made. ||2||
> 
> 
> jmpuir bDw duK shwhI ] (111-10)
> jampur baDhaa dukh sahaahee.
> Bound and gagged in the City of Death(An unrepentant sinners end), they suffer in terrible pain.
> AMnw bolw ikCu ndir n AwvY mnmuK pwip pcwvixAw ]4] (111-10)
> annaa bolaa kichh nadar na aavai manmukh paap pachaavani-aa. ||4||
> Blind and deaf, they see nothing at all; the self-willed manmukhs rot away in sin. ||4||
> 
> 
> _At his very last moments, one who thinks of the Lord, says Trilochan, shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.”_
> 
> _Somehow if I was a drug consuming raping murderer and thought of the Lord at the last moments of my life, I don't think I would be liberated._
> 
> 
> 
> _You can not have a theory of reincarnation and Heaven/Hell in the same narrative. If you do, what do you think this means?_



Why exactly is it once? But at the same time Gurbani says we have been here many times? The answer is because the 'we' do not exist. There  is only ONE and that ONE is ALL. Like an actor playing ALL the characters (shabads on ang 736) but when the costumes (the 'we') are removed you see there is only the ONE (God). So if you are thinking your ego identity (the haume) will continue and reincarnate - no it will not. But YOU are NOT that ego identity!!!! So YOU will not cease to exist and YOU will live on even as other entities. Gurbani tells us that as Gurmukhi when one realizes in himself that 'he IS me' he realizes his OWN SELF - who is the 'he'??? It's God!! Then what more is there to do or to have done? 
The only thing which dies and ceases to exist is the ego identity which is false. The physical body is also false. But the I AM, the experiencer, the doer behind the ego and the body is forever - that consciousness which is behind every set of eyes and is the same ONE in all of us. So when you die physically it won't be the end. Because YOU are not the physical shell, or even the false identity you assumed in this life. YOU are MUCH more! And THAT is what lives on and is the SAME ONE conscious awareness in ALL. So yes we have been here millions of times, in every species and every situation. But the 'we' is really Waheguru. And we are NOT something separate from Waheguru. The 'we' does not even exist as it's illusion. We were never separate. That's the hard thing to let go of!!!


----------



## Dalvinder Singh Grewal

There is enough examples in Gurbani where reincarnation is mentioned, hence it will be futile to deny this based on Gurbani context. Even in the life records of  the Gurus we find some examples of reincarnation. There are cases of new life after death reported in press as well and some cases I have interviewed personally and found them to be correct without doubt; there is certainly something to it which needs to be studied further.


----------



## sukhsingh

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> There is enough examples in Gurbani where reincarnation is mentioned, hence it will be futile to deny this based on Gurbani context. Even in the life records of  the Gurus we find some examples of reincarnation. There are cases of new life after death reported in press as well and some cases I have interviewed personally and found them to be correct without doubt; there is certainly something to it which needs to be studied further.


Can you please elaborate on examples of reincarnation?


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## Harkiran Kaur

sukhsingh said:


> Can you please elaborate on examples of reincarnation?



This story is very convincing! 

Reincarnated! Our son is a World War II pilot come back to life | Daily Mail Online


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## sukhsingh

Harkiran Kaur said:


> This story is very convincing!
> 
> Reincarnated! Our son is a World War II pilot come back to life | Daily Mail Online


Can you please provide a link? I have to say I'm pretty sceptical!


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## sukhsingh

Harkiran Kaur said:


> This story is very convincing!
> 
> Reincarnated! Our son is a World War II pilot come back to life | Daily Mail Online


I saw the link but I have to say it is hardly proof


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## Harkiran Kaur

sukhsingh said:


> I saw the link but I have to say it is hardly proof



There are MANY subjective experiences reported.... too many to ignore.


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## sukhsingh

Harkiran Kaur said:


> There are MANY subjective experiences reported.... too many to ignore.


I would never ignore anyones subjective  experience but the quantity or amount is not evidence.. 

Do you then believe that the human personality is Reincarnated? Which is what this post suggests?


----------



## sukhsingh

Harkiran Kaur said:


> There are MANY subjective experiences reported.... too many to ignore.


You do also realise that you are using a journalistic piece from the daily mail as a source of reference.. 


Same newspaper that has


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

sukhsingh said:


> I would never ignore anyones subjective  experience but the quantity or amount is not evidence..
> 
> Do you then believe that the human personality is Reincarnated? Which is what this post suggests?



What I am saying is that the human personality is just a 'character' being played by the ONE, Akal Purakh. You have to see past this life identity as being 'you' because its not. So to answer your question, yes and no. Because it's the same ONE universal consciousness (Creator) which is really the one who is experiencing everything, then yes, I believe sometimes glimpses of past experiences (or rather 'other' experiences, because even time is illusion) can surface in another human life, as in the child referenced above at the link. But ALL human personalities are really Waheguru experiencing subjectively through his own creation. So the human personality (ego identity) is just like a costume. Its temporary and false. But when the human body dies, the awareness that was operating through it does NOT DIE and DOES go on - fully aware. 
It would be like (and I have used this analogy before) if you dream tonight you are a surgeon, in the OR and have your patient and nurses, and anesthesiologist etc all there. While in the dream you believe you are the surgeon. You believe you are separate from the patient and the nurses etc. Throughout the dream, you build an entire story and life based on that character. The truth is, the consciousness, the awareness behind the surgeon is really Sukhsingh ji correct? (and you can also realize that the nurses, the patient etc are also Sukhsingh Ji because ALL of them were in YOUR dream created by YOUR mind!!) The surgeon identity was false, but when you wake up in the morning the surgeon ceases to exist, along with the entire identity you built around that character. So can you ask yourself *does the surgeon reincarnate*???? Well, certainly you will dream again, the next night, and you will be a different character, and you may even remember some snips of being the surgeon. But is that truly the surgeon who went on to be another character identity?? Of course not, it was Sukhsingh Ji, the dreamer who only dreamt of being a surgeon! The question of reincarnation to me is inconsequential, because you are asking the wrong question... rather you are asking about the wrong identity when referring to whether or not reincarnation takes place. Sukhsingh Ji is the dreamer, the awareness. That awareness is what continues beyond the dream, and goes on to dream again. Not the surgeon (at least on the same level). 
Now, referencing THIS reality. All of our human identities, our ego, our haume, are the dream characters. And there is only ONE dreamer. That ONE dreamer is the consciousness behind ALL OF US. But just like when you were the surgeon, and you totally bought into the dream and believed you were the surgeon while in the dream, so too are we in that same predicament right now. 
So the question is not will Harkiran reincarnate... the question is does the conscious awareness behind Harkiran, continue even after the temporary dream of being Harkiran ceases (and can that consciousness possibly remember being Harkiran while playing another character identity) and that answer is yes. 
This is just my own understanding, and I believe it agrees with Gurbani, see shabad on Ang 736 about Waheguru being the director and all the characters... also see the tuks telling us that as Gurmukh, when we realize our OWN SELF, and that 'HE IS ME' then what more is there to do or to have done....


----------



## Theologian

If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
As of late; the old teachings of 'Consciousness' from past eastern philosophies, is becoming popular once again. One of the root components in most forms of consciousness teachings is that man/women can, within himself, transcend physical existence & experience their own goodness as being 'One' with the universe, exalting ones self to God like comparison. If you no longer see error in your actions or others, then Guru Nanak would have had no need to disavow Hinduisms teachings, and being a different religious path. The consciousness ideology is more compatible with Buddhism than Sikhism. The SGGS points out we are all committing evil sins and that this is our main battle in life & to know and obey God. These teachings also promotes certain scriptures in all major religions to promote is belief systems. We can not elevate ourselves anyway near God. The 'He is Me' phrase, is a phrase between our Guru and his Master and Teacher - 'The True Guru'. It is meant on a spiritual context. A normal person does not have this trait until a certain declaration and decision is met.
If ego is false, is depression also false? I see many people daily who are over confident and prideful. If pride is a sin to a serious God, then is it false to God?
When we die; only our physical body dies, our soul never dies. We do go to another place to begin an infinite life as a soul, and not reincarnation. This infinite life is decided by your life's decisions and sins on this Earth. The one and only main thing in life is if you accepted and obeyed the True Living God. Life is like a few seconds long compared to the afterlife. That is why many people near death experience a flashback of their life's in a few seconds and they felt a strong presence behind them watching and analysing their life. They did not look behind but somehow knew it was God.
Dalvinder Singh; you can not believe reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, it is one or the other. There is no one that can confirm if another person says that they lived a previous life and that this is not a hallucination or dream. There are hardly any people that share memories of someone's previous life. A case may be made for a one off, without confirming their validity. If reincarnation was so, then why can not many of these people tell you their lives as an animal? As it is not so, more people would want to believe in reincarnation than God giving everyone one unique body with one unique fingerprints, lips, ears, face, nose. What does this say? You are unique and animals here in this world are not, have a think. Reincarnation also can not work if someone becomes an animal as they can not sin and be judged; or a fish for example. There is nothing to separate one fish from another. A fish can not plot murder, or gain money or be jealous; a lot of fishes can not even have memory longer than a few seconds! The reincarnation theory is false, as you are unsure yourself otherwise you would have no need to interview these people or find people on newspapers or online for their stories as deep within you, you have doubts.
I am trying to be straight to the point and unfortunately blunt, it is just to make everyone think and educate, even myself.

If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

Theologian said:


> If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
> As of late; the old teachings of 'Consciousness' from past eastern philosophies, is becoming popular once again. One of the root components in most forms of consciousness teachings is that man/women can, within himself, transcend physical existence & experience their own goodness as being 'One' with the universe, exalting ones self to God like comparison. If you no longer see error in your actions or others, then Guru Nanak would have had no need to disavow Hinduisms teachings, and being a different religious path. The consciousness ideology is more compatible with Buddhism than Sikhism. The SGGS points out we are all committing evil sins and that this is our main battle in life & to know and obey God. These teachings also promotes certain scriptures in all major religions to promote is belief systems. We can not elevate ourselves anyway near God. The 'He is Me' phrase, is a phrase between our Guru and his Master and Teacher - 'The True Guru'. It is meant on a spiritual context. A normal person does not have this trait until a certain declaration and decision is met.
> If ego is false, is depression also false? I see many people daily who are over confident and prideful. If pride is a sin to a serious God, then is it false to God?
> When we die; only our physical body dies, our soul never dies. We do go to another place to begin an infinite life as a soul, and not reincarnation. This infinite life is decided by your life's decisions and sins on this Earth. The one and only main thing in life is if you accepted and obeyed the True Living God. Life is like a few seconds long compared to the afterlife. That is why many people near death experience a flashback of their life's in a few seconds and they felt a strong presence behind them watching and analysing their life. They did not look behind but somehow knew it was God.
> Dalvinder Singh; you can not believe reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, it is one or the other. There is no one that can confirm if another person says that they lived a previous life and that this is not a hallucination or dream. There are hardly any people that share memories of someone's previous life. A case may be made for a one off, without confirming their validity. If reincarnation was so, then why can not many of these people tell you their lives as an animal? As it is not so, more people would want to believe in reincarnation than God giving everyone one unique body with one unique fingerprints, lips, ears, face, nose. What does this say? You are unique and animals here in this world are not, have a think. Reincarnation also can not work if someone becomes an animal as they can not sin and be judged; or a fish for example. There is nothing to separate one fish from another. A fish can not plot murder, or gain money or be jealous; a lot of fishes can not even have memory longer than a few seconds! The reincarnation theory is false, as you are unsure yourself otherwise you would have no need to interview these people or find people on newspapers or online for their stories as deep within you, you have doubts.
> I am trying to be straight to the point and unfortunately blunt, it is just to make everyone think and educate, even myself.
> 
> If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.



You idea of sin and hell / heaven and one life and us being separate from Creator sounds eerily like abrahamic doctrine...

I'm not saying we are 'like' god. I'm saying God is all there truly is. Rest (us included) are like a dream of the creator. But there is and always will be only one dreamer. The 'I Am' behind all of us is that ONE Creator. There is no 'elevating to be like' because we are not something separate. The ONE is ALL. This kills idea of separate souls jumping bodies for different lifetimes like some view reincarnation, and it also kills idea of 'we' being here one life and then going to some promised heaven or hell. If that were the case we would not be aiming to merge with Creator. The truth is there is no 'we' there is only the ONE.

Quantum physics also glimpses this. Matter is over 99.9999% empty space and what's left is electrons and quarks (protons and neutrons break down to quarks). Now through experiments which they can reproduce over and over again, they have seen that these basic subatomic particles can pop into and out of existence. Electrons can behave as either a particle (something tangible) or a wave (something which has no substance of its own) and the factor which causes this wave of energy to form into a particle???? A conscious observer. That shows that the base of he universe is conscious energy and not matter. Pure frequency, vibration. Matter arises out of consciousness. Now the fact that we can also affect these particles / waves if we observe ourselves, it shows our conscious awareness is part of that awareness (the I AM) which exists at the base of this reality and is not a product of complexity of matter as was previously thought. Scientists get all nervous about this because it challenges a major belief about our self awareness that was held for a long time. Google the measurement problem and the double slit experiment for more. 

This serves as at least a glimpse into the working of reality and agrees with the shabads I posted above. There is only one 'I AM' which is the same 'I  AM' behind all characters in this 'dream' but there is only one dreamer.... Akal Purakh. 

The idea of a separate existence and one life with a promise of hell or heaven afterward does not fit with what Gurbani is saying. The hell is what we create - hell is remaining separated from Waheguru - and not so much separated but not realizing we are always connected. Like a drop of water from the ocean, people often say the drop is away from the ocean but in our case we never left the ocean, we just forgot we were here. Such is the nature of Maya. The illusion is keeping us from realizing we are actually already merged with Creator and always have been. We are asleep... and immersed in the dream and have forgotten we are (collectively) the dreamer.


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## Harkiran Kaur

If you read the entire shabad you will see that it's speaking of the true guru and us... the true guru as in Sat Guru... it's talking about the realization of being not something separate as in...
(Full shabad is in the quote)

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ||
Sohaŉ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.
One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥
Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||
When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੇਲੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
Mili▫ā kā ki▫ā melī▫ai sabaḏ mile paṯī▫ā▫e.
Why speak of union to those who are already united with the Lord? Receiving the Shabad, they are satisfied.

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਵੀਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਇ ॥
Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai vīcẖẖuṛ cẖotā kẖā▫e.
The self-willed manmukhs do not understand; separated from Him, they endure beatings.

Why are self will manmukhs separated while Gurmukhs are already in union? Because they understand... they have recognized that 'he IS me' are already united and have killed the ego identity which further back in the shabad says is only here for this short play. They have realized they are more than that identity, that they are already one with God. 




> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
> सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
> Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
> Siree Raag, First Mehl:
> 
> ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਜਲ ਕਮਲੇਹਿ ॥
> रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी जल कमलेहि ॥
> Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī jal kamlehi.
> O mind, love the Lord, as the lotus loves the water.
> 
> ਲਹਰੀ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਛਾੜੀਐ ਭੀ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਅਸਨੇਹਿ ॥
> लहरी नालि पछाड़ीऐ भी विगसै असनेहि ॥
> Lahrī nāl pacẖẖāṛī▫ai bẖī vigsai asnehi.
> Tossed about by the waves, it still blossoms with love.
> 
> ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਲ ਮਰਣੁ ਤਿਨੇਹਿ ॥੧॥
> जल महि जीअ उपाइ कै बिनु जल मरणु तिनेहि ॥१॥
> Jal mėh jī▫a upā▫e kai bin jal maraṇ ṯinehi. ||1||
> In the water, the creatures are created; outside of the water they die. ||1||
> 
> ਮਨ ਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਛੂਟਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਿਆਰ ॥
> मन रे किउ छूटहि बिनु पिआर ॥
> Man re ki▫o cẖẖūtėh bin pi▫ār.
> O mind, how can you be saved without love?
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਬਖਸੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> गुरमुखि अंतरि रवि रहिआ बखसे भगति भंडार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> Gurmukẖ anṯar rav rahi▫ā bakẖse bẖagaṯ bẖandār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> God permeates the inner beings of the Gurmukhs. They are blessed with the treasure of devotion. ||1||Pause||
> 
> ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਨੀਰ ॥
> रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी मछुली नीर ॥
> Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī macẖẖulī nīr.
> O mind, love the Lord, as the fish loves the water.
> 
> ਜਿਉ ਅਧਿਕਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਣੋ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਰੀਰ ॥
> जिउ अधिकउ तिउ सुखु घणो मनि तनि सांति सरीर ॥
> Ji▫o aḏẖika▫o ṯi▫o sukẖ gẖaṇo man ṯan sāŉṯ sarīr.
> The more the water, the more the happiness, and the greater the peace of mind and body.
> 
> ਬਿਨੁ ਜਲ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਜੀਵਈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਭ ਪੀਰ ॥੨॥
> बिनु जल घड़ी न जीवई प्रभु जाणै अभ पीर ॥२॥
> Bin jal gẖaṛī na jīv▫ī parabẖ jāṇai abẖ pīr. ||2||
> Without water, she cannot live, even for an instant. God knows the suffering of her mind. ||2||
> 
> ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਚਾਤ੍ਰਿਕ ਮੇਹ ॥
> रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी चात्रिक मेह ॥
> Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī cẖāṯrik meh.
> O mind, love the Lord, as the song-bird loves the rain.
> 
> ਸਰ ਭਰਿ ਥਲ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੇ ਇਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਨ ਪਵਈ ਕੇਹ ॥
> सर भरि थल हरीआवले इक बूंद न पवई केह ॥
> Sar bẖar thal harī▫āvle ik būnḏ na pav▫ī keh.
> The pools are overflowing with water, and the land is luxuriantly green, but what are they to her, if that single drop of rain does not fall into her mouth?
> 
> ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਈਐ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੇਹ ॥੩॥
> करमि मिलै सो पाईऐ किरतु पइआ सिरि देह ॥३॥
> Karam milai so pā▫ī▫ai kiraṯ pa▫i▫ā sir ḏeh. ||3||
> By His Grace, she receives it; otherwise, because of her past actions, she gives her head. ||3||
> 
> ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਜਲ ਦੁਧ ਹੋਇ ॥
> रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी जल दुध होइ ॥
> Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī jal ḏuḏẖ ho▫e.
> O mind, love the Lord, as the water loves the milk.
> 
> ਆਵਟਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਖਵੈ ਦੁਧ ਕਉ ਖਪਣਿ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥
> आवटणु आपे खवै दुध कउ खपणि न देइ ॥
> Āvtaṇ āpe kẖavai ḏuḏẖ ka▫o kẖapaṇ na ḏe▫e.
> The water, added to the milk, itself bears the heat, and prevents the milk from burning.
> 
> ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਵਿਛੁੰਨਿਆ ਸਚਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇਇ ॥੪॥
> आपे मेलि विछुंनिआ सचि वडिआई देइ ॥४॥
> Āpe mel vicẖẖunni▫ā sacẖ vadi▫ā▫ī ḏe▫e. ||4||
> God unites the separated ones with Himself again, and blesses them with true greatness. ||4||
> 
> ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਚਕਵੀ ਸੂਰ ॥
> रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी चकवी सूर ॥
> Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī cẖakvī sūr.
> O mind, love the Lord, as the chakvee duck loves the sun.
> 
> ਖਿਨੁ ਪਲੁ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਸੋਵਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਰਿ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥
> खिनु पलु नीद न सोवई जाणै दूरि हजूरि ॥
> Kẖin pal nīḏ na sov▫ī jāṇai ḏūr hajūr.
> She does not sleep, for an instant or a moment; the sun is so far away, but she thinks that it is near.
> 
> ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੫॥
> मनमुखि सोझी ना पवै गुरमुखि सदा हजूरि ॥५॥
> Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai gurmukẖ saḏā hajūr. ||5||
> Understanding does not come to the self-willed manmukh. But to the Gurmukh, the Lord is always close. ||5||
> 
> ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਗਣਤ ਗਣਾਵਣੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
> मनमुखि गणत गणावणी करता करे सु होइ ॥
> Manmukẖ gaṇaṯ gaṇāvaṇī karṯā kare so ho▫e.
> The self-willed manmukhs make their calculations and plans, but only the actions of the Creator come to pass.
> 
> ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
> ता की कीमति ना पवै जे लोचै सभु कोइ ॥
> Ŧā kī kīmaṯ nā pavai je locẖai sabẖ ko▫e.
> His Value cannot be estimated, even though everyone may wish to do so.
> 
> ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥
> गुरमति होइ त पाईऐ सचि मिलै सुखु होइ ॥६॥
> Gurmaṯ ho▫e ṯa pā▫ī▫ai sacẖ milai sukẖ ho▫e. ||6||
> Through the Guru's Teachings, it is revealed. Meeting with the True One, peace is found. ||6||
> 
> ਸਚਾ ਨੇਹੁ ਨ ਤੁਟਈ ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
> सचा नेहु न तुटई जे सतिगुरु भेटै सोइ ॥
> Sacẖā nehu na ṯut▫ī je saṯgur bẖetai so▫e.
> True love shall not be broken, if the True Guru is met.
> 
> ਗਿਆਨ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
> गिआन पदारथु पाईऐ त्रिभवण सोझी होइ ॥
> Gi▫ān paḏārath pā▫ī▫ai ṯaribẖavaṇ sojẖī ho▫e.
> Obtaining the wealth of spiritual wisdom, the understanding of the three worlds is acquired.
> 
> ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਕਾ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੭॥
> निरमलु नामु न वीसरै जे गुण का गाहकु होइ ॥७॥
> Nirmal nām na vīsrai je guṇ kā gāhak ho▫e. ||7||
> So become a customer of merit, and do not forget the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||7||
> 
> ਖੇਲਿ ਗਏ ਸੇ ਪੰਖਣੂੰ ਜੋ ਚੁਗਦੇ ਸਰ ਤਲਿ ॥
> खेलि गए से पंखणूं जो चुगदे सर तलि ॥
> Kẖel ga▫e se paŉkẖ▫ṇūŉ jo cẖugḏe sar ṯal.
> Those birds which peck at the shore of the pool have played and have departed.
> 
> ਘੜੀ ਕਿ ਮੁਹਤਿ ਕਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਖੇਲਣੁ ਅਜੁ ਕਿ ਕਲਿ ॥
> घड़ी कि मुहति कि चलणा खेलणु अजु कि कलि ॥
> Gẖaṛī kė muhaṯ kė cẖalṇā kẖelaṇ aj kė kal.
> In a moment, in an instant, we too must depart. Our play is only for today or tomorrow.
> 
> ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਲਹਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਚਾ ਪਿੜੁ ਮਲਿ ॥੮॥
> जिसु तूं मेलहि सो मिलै जाइ सचा पिड़ु मलि ॥८॥
> Jis ṯūŉ melėh so milai jā▫e sacẖā piṛ mal. ||8||
> But those whom You unite, Lord, are united with You; they obtain a seat in the Arena of Truth. ||8||
> 
> ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
> बिनु गुर प्रीति न ऊपजै हउमै मैलु न जाइ ॥
> Bin gur parīṯ na ūpjai ha▫umai mail na jā▫e.
> Without the Guru, love does not well up, and the filth of egotism does not depart.
> 
> ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
> सोहं आपु पछाणीऐ सबदि भेदि पतीआइ ॥
> Sohaŉ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.
> One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥
> गुरमुखि आपु पछाणीऐ अवर कि करे कराइ ॥९॥
> Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||
> When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||
> 
> ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੇਲੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
> मिलिआ का किआ मेलीऐ सबदि मिले पतीआइ ॥
> Mili▫ā kā ki▫ā melī▫ai sabaḏ mile paṯī▫ā▫e.
> Why speak of union to those who are already united with the Lord? Receiving the Shabad, they are satisfied.
> 
> ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਵੀਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਇ ॥
> मनमुखि सोझी ना पवै वीछुड़ि चोटा खाइ ॥
> Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai vīcẖẖuṛ cẖotā kẖā▫e.
> The self-willed manmukhs do not understand; separated from Him, they endure beatings.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰੁ ਘਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜੀ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੦॥੧੧॥
> नानक दरु घरु एकु है अवरु न दूजी जाइ ॥१०॥११॥
> Nānak ḏar gẖar ek hai avar na ḏūjī jā▫e. ||10||11||
> O Nanak, there is only the one door to His Home; there is no other place at all. ||10||11||
> 
> [\quote]


----------



## Theologian

I do not disagree with Abrahamic Religions saying there is a Heaven and Hell, I agree completely. For times sake I will explain why I hold this view. I will not explain scientific points that the average person cannot discern if it is true, or my experiences.

Guru Nanak's life changed when he disappeared from a nearby river, only his clothes were left. He came back three days later implying; that he went up to Heaven and met God who revealed to him that he has nothing to do with Hinduism or Islam; and told him what he expected him to tell the people around his area.

You can not have hot water without cold water. You can not have light without dark. Hence you can not have Heaven without Hell. The way our universe is made there is an equal and opposite.

He is caught and thrown into the most horrible hell - SGGS Page 309


Our Earth is round and deep inside their is lava at a certain depth, I'm sure we all agree upon this.
If I have a full bottle of water with the lid off and squeeze it slowly and slowly, eventually the water will fall out and spill. Instead of the water that spilled there is now space in that part of the bottle.
We have volcanoes here on Earth. If Hell was true, then please analyse this. Volcanoes have become more active over time, as more and more people die the volcanoes shoot out more and more lava, creating space deep within the Earth. The way our Earth is designed with other examples fits the Heaven/Hell answer from my perspective. Above our Earth we have a star, directly centre above our Earth, that never moves, and has no scientific reason for it to be held there. They may try to explain it but I do not buy it, much like how I do not buy how it rains. If rain comes up from the oceans/mountains then how are droughts caused? If this is so, then why is the water salty there and clean when it reaches us. I hope you have somewhat an idea of the direction I am going.

Also when I used to think of death I would always be afraid. Now I realise why. If your finger touches fire, your body will make you pull the finger back. Your body here is hinting to you about your first experience with fire. When one thinks of death, if they have fear, then why is your body/mind telling you to fear once you die, could your body be trying to tell you something? Only once I came across certain experiences of my life that changed me, I surprisingly was at peace when thinking about death. When I mean about death, I mean how I felt, not how I thought.

Also the SGGS repeats 2 things more than anything else, literally every page or every other page. First is the love of God from the human Gurus. Secondly is the message that you need to know the naam, the name of the Lord to be saved. What do we need to be saved from more? Hell with no hope, or reincarnation where we can live again?


Quotes for the other repliers to reflect upon:

mwns dyh bhuir nh pwvY kCU aupwau mukiq kw kru ry ] (220-15)
maanas dayh bahur nah paavai kachhoo upaa-o mukat kaa kar ray.
You shall not obtain this human body again; make the effort - try to achieve liberation!

iqsu iniv iniv lwgau pweI jIau ]2] (216-17)
tis niv niv laaga-o paa-ee jee-o. ||2||
Bowing low, I fall at the Feet of the Lord.

krxI aupir hovig swr ] (1169-4)
karnee upar hovag saar.
According to their deeds, they shall be judged.


haumY mwir imlwieAnu gur kY sbid qry ] (90-18)
ha-umai maar milaa-i-an gur kai sabad taray.
They conquer their egotism and meet with the Lord; they are saved through the Word of the Guru's Shabad.


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## Harkiran Kaur

We will have to agree to disagree I am afraid. I don't think you are getting past the individual identity to see everything as ONE. I am looking beyond all duality as duality is part of the Creation. A Sikh is supposed to strive for that ONEness, not some promised Heaven vs a Hell which would mean they were still indeed very much within the illusion of Maya. Only where duality is rectified and everything is unity and ONE is the 'I AM' free from duality.


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## RD1

Theologian said:


> Our Earth is round and deep inside their is lava at a certain depth, I'm sure we all agree upon this.
> If I have a full bottle of water with the lid off and squeeze it slowly and slowly, eventually the water will fall out and spill. Instead of the water that spilled there is now space in that part of the bottle.
> We have volcanoes here on Earth. If Hell was true, then please analyse this. Volcanoes have become more active over time, as more and more people die the volcanoes shoot out more and more lava, creating space deep within the Earth. The way our Earth is designed with other examples fits the Heaven/Hell answer from my perspective. Above our Earth we have a star, directly centre above our Earth, that never moves, and has no scientific reason for it to be held there. They may try to explain it but I do not buy it, much like how I do not buy how it rains. If rain comes up from the oceans/mountains then how are droughts caused? If this is so, then why is the water salty there and clean when it reaches us. I hope you have somewhat an idea of the direction I am going.



Are you proposing that hell literally and physically exists within the earth?


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal

Theologian said:


> If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
> As of late; the old teachings of 'Consciousness' from past eastern philosophies, is becoming popular once again. One of the root components in most forms of consciousness teachings is that man/women can, within himself, transcend physical existence & experience their own goodness as being 'One' with the universe, exalting ones self to God like comparison. If you no longer see error in your actions or others, then Guru Nanak would have had no need to disavow Hinduisms teachings, and being a different religious path. The consciousness ideology is more compatible with Buddhism than Sikhism. The SGGS points out we are all committing evil sins and that this is our main battle in life & to know and obey God. These teachings also promotes certain scriptures in all major religions to promote is belief systems. We can not elevate ourselves anyway near God. The 'He is Me' phrase, is a phrase between our Guru and his Master and Teacher - 'The True Guru'. It is meant on a spiritual context. A normal person does not have this trait until a certain declaration and decision is met.
> If ego is false, is depression also false? I see many people daily who are over confident and prideful. If pride is a sin to a serious God, then is it false to God?
> When we die; only our physical body dies, our soul never dies. We do go to another place to begin an infinite life as a soul, and not reincarnation. This infinite life is decided by your life's decisions and sins on this Earth. The one and only main thing in life is if you accepted and obeyed the True Living God. Life is like a few seconds long compared to the afterlife. That is why many people near death experience a flashback of their life's in a few seconds and they felt a strong presence behind them watching and analysing their life. They did not look behind but somehow knew it was God.
> Dalvinder Singh; you can not believe reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, it is one or the other. There is no one that can confirm if another person says that they lived a previous life and that this is not a hallucination or dream. There are hardly any people that share memories of someone's previous life. A case may be made for a one off, without confirming their validity. If reincarnation was so, then why can not many of these people tell you their lives as an animal? As it is not so, more people would want to believe in reincarnation than God giving everyone one unique body with one unique fingerprints, lips, ears, face, nose. What does this say? You are unique and animals here in this world are not, have a think. Reincarnation also can not work if someone becomes an animal as they can not sin and be judged; or a fish for example. There is nothing to separate one fish from another. A fish can not plot murder, or gain money or be jealous; a lot of fishes can not even have memory longer than a few seconds! The reincarnation theory is false, as you are unsure yourself otherwise you would have no need to interview these people or find people on newspapers or online for their stories as deep within you, you have doubts.
> I am trying to be straight to the point and unfortunately blunt, it is just to make everyone think and educate, even myself.
> 
> If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.



Possibly you have not read me the way  I have written. I clearly said that I have interviewed some chaps who remembered their life before rebirth and it was so beyond doubt. Hence I do not doubt life after death. I said for more details further study should be carried out where questions like 'why no one remembers if he was an animal or otherwise' can be solved. There was studied being depicted on one of the net where a lady was shown as getting the individual recall his past life. There were some people who were animals and birds in their past life as well. Why they got various lives was also discussed. To say that there is no after life mere on guess work cannot be accepted. If one has not come across scuh cases one cannot just say that there is no case of after life.


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## chazSingh

Best method is to find out for your self  everything else is just study, ideas, thoughts etc etc...

Guru Ji has given is a way to prove to ourselves all that we wish to know...take the jump...do it, find out, live it, breath...then you don;t need proof...you dont need a scientific experiment...because 'you' were the experiment...

*do it..its the only way to know these things...without it, all you have is belief...and belief on its own is nothing..belief as a foundation to take the jump and explore is EVERYTHIGN!!*


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## japjisahib04

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> There is enough examples in Gurbani where reincarnation is mentioned, hence it will be futile to deny this based on Gurbani context. Even in the life records of the Gurus we find some examples of reincarnation. There are cases of new life after death reported in press as well and some cases I have interviewed personally and found them to be correct without doubt; there is certainly something to it which needs to be studied further.


 S. Dalvindersingh Jee

can you please quote a shabad which according to you refers to life after death.


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## Theologian

Harkiran Kaur said:


> We will have to agree to disagree I am afraid. I don't think you are getting past the individual identity to see everything as ONE. I am looking beyond all duality as duality is part of the Creation. A Sikh is supposed to strive for that ONEness, not some promised Heaven vs a Hell which would mean they were still indeed very much within the illusion of Maya. Only where duality is rectified and everything is unity and ONE is the 'I AM' free from duality.


 
Wow I am impressed by your maturity and wisdom. Usually most people who come across another that does not hold a similar view can not peacefully conclude it. When most people have their views asserted and strengthened over time, it is hard for it to be changed unless big enough, convincible ways are expressed. Works both ways for us in this case. Unfortunately due to both contradictory paths being shown in the SGGS, it is hard to get to the root unless a very deep study is made. The main thing that has made me convinced of my views is of having 3/4 experiences that are more than a near death experience in my view, with a two way understanding with supernatural situations after studying the major religions.


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## Theologian

RD1 said:


> Are you proposing that hell literally and physically exists within the earth?


 I am reiterating what the Sikhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam religions agree upon. As including the other religions adds more credit to the Sikhi side of Heaven/Hell mentioned by the founder Guru Nanak, who was the only one summoned to God while he was living on Earth. Guru Gobind Singh Ji talked much more about Hell, he was the Idol smasher, as such his hate was for treating a rock as the Almighty.


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## Theologian

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> Possibly you have not read me the way  I have written. I clearly said that I have interviewed some chaps who remembered their life before rebirth and it was so beyond doubt. Hence I do not doubt life after death. I said for more details further study should be carried out where questions like 'why no one remembers if he was an animal or otherwise' can be solved. There was studied being depicted on one of the net where a lady was shown as getting the individual recall his past life. There were some people who were animals and birds in their past life as well. Why they got various lives was also discussed. To say that there is no after life mere on guess work cannot be accepted. If one has not come across scuh cases one cannot just say that there is no case of after life.


 I am not going on guess work, I have studied deeply the major religions and looked at the creation of this Earth, as the fingerprints of God is all over this Earth. Do you know what the chances are for this Earth being made the way it is? Read below...

For every reincarnation memory recalled, there is at least double/triple Heaven/Hell experience and also God experience, with God being seen in Heaven. Gods explanation from these experiences for some people having reincarnation experiences is that they are being cleverly deceived.

I was originally an atheist living a on/off criminal lifestyle till one day a supernatural situation changed me and my perspective of life.

I however wished to challenge your opinion to see where we could conclude our debate. We are all learning as we go through this life, and I respect your view and decision in life for pursuit of the truth.


*The Earth*...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.



The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.


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## Harkiran Kaur

Theologian said:


> Wow I am impressed by your maturity and wisdom. Usually most people who come across another that does not hold a similar view can not peacefully conclude it. When most people have their views asserted and strengthened over time, it is hard for it to be changed unless big enough, convincible ways are expressed. Works both ways for us in this case. Unfortunately due to both contradictory paths being shown in the SGGS, it is hard to get to the root unless a very deep study is made. The main thing that has made me convinced of my views is of having 3/4 experiences that are more than a near death experience in my view, with a two way understanding with supernatural situations after studying the major religions.



You are not the only one to have such experiences.... All throughout my life starting at around age 8 I have had out of body experiences. I also experienced some pretty amazing things during intense simran at amrit vela - and these experiences helped me to understand that physical is false, there really is no 'heaven' or 'hell' but instead our own origin is divine and our separateness is actually false. Its how I likened it to a dream. At night I am the dreamer. My physical body is inconsequential because it's my mind which is dreaming. Therefore for metaphorical purposes, we can say I am formless in relation to the dream. I create the dream, I create the characters in it, I create the dreamworld as they all happen in my own mind. I may focus on experiencing through only one character at the moment, but in reality ALL of the characters in my dream are really me. In my dream they have form. If I touch something in the dream it feels real, I can see forms and substance in my dream. I can smell things and hear things and taste things. (in fact the five senses are nothing more than electrical signals sent to our brain... frequency). In reference to my dream, I am the Creator. Yet I am also ALL of the characters. It doesn't matter which character I am playing at any given moment, because the character is false. Even if I don't remember being me the dreamer. If while playing one character in a dream, I 'die' in the dream what happens? I just wake up! Am I concerned about the character??? The character was not really ME. It was a part I was playing temporarily only. This is similar to how our reality is. Just another dream (frequency as thought waves of Waheguru) and we are only dream characters. But just like when I dream at night I assume that character and think I am that character, in reality I am the dreamer. Similarly, Harkiran is only another character in another dream. But the awareness who is assuming this temporary identity called Harkiran, that is the dreamer. And that same awareness is playing Theologian. And all others. One day this dream will end for me and I will wake up and remember who I really am and I will know this was only a dream. Maybe I will even wake up while still in the dream! 
To strive for a 'heaven' vs a 'Hell' suggests duality. Duality is still within the dream because God is ONEness. Duality gives rise to form, because there is something to compare something to. Time is also of duality because there is change. In ONEness there is no change because change means something is different from something else.

*Ik*- There is ONE(Ik) reality, the origin and the source of everything. The creation did not come out of nothing. When there was nothing, there was ONE, Ik. The number 1 is used so no mistake can be made that everything arises out of 1 - singular existence.
*Onkaar*- When Ik becomes the creative principal (contemplation) it becomes Onkaar. This implies awareness since only one who is aware can contemplate in order to create. In other words when everything 1 it is changeless and that means things can never happen unless someone or something initiates it, something must happen to initiate creation and from ONEness that takes active intent or else it would always remain as ONE. That should be enough to know that Creator is aware of the creation. Onkaar manifests as visible and invisible phenomenon. The creative principle is not separated from the created, it is present throughout the creation in an unbroken form, 'kaar'. Everything within the creation is essentially the Creator because there was nothing else but the Creator.  (think dream analogy above). 
*Satnaam*- The sustaining principle of Ik is Satnaam, the True Name.
*Kartaa Purakh*- Ik Onkaar is Creator and Doer (Kartaa) of everything, all the seen and unseen phenomenon. It is not just a law or a system, it is a Purakh, a Person. Gurbani says it is his (not to be confused as a male gender - it's?) hukam. Meaning Akal Purakh is NOT the hukam itself (as some like to think that the laws that govern the universe ARE God). This says otherwise. If it's the hukam OF 'Akal Purakh' then Akal Purakh exists as an initiator or creator of the hukam, and is not the hukam itself. 
*Nirbhau*- That Ik Onkaar is devoid of any fear, because there is nothing but itself.
*Nirvair*- That Ik Onkaar is devoid of any enmity because there is nothing but itself.
*Akaal Moorat*- That Ik Onkaar is beyond Time (Akaal) and yet it is existing. Its an 'image' (Moorat) which does not exist in Time because Time means change and change implies duality - something is different from something else. It is Nirgun (being formless but yet is an image because it exists, and also Sargun all form because all forms are contained within it as expression of its own contemplation). 
*Ajooni*- That Ik Onkaar does not condense and come into any birth. All the phenomenon of birth and death of forms are within it. (again think of dream analogy, if a dream character dies, the dreamer does not). 
*Saibhang*- That Ik Onkaar exists on its own, by its own. It is not caused by anything before it or beyond it. It was not created, it just exists. What is formless, that exists on its own, has creative potential, can create form within itself? Conscious Awareness. Consciousness is merely frequency, like our own brainwaves. Nothing in science can account for how mashing a bunch of electrons together can create conscious self awareness - an internal thought reality... the I AM. Consciousness exists beyond the physical. 
*Gurprasaad*- That Ik Onkaar is expresses itself through a channel known as Guru and it is only its own Grace and Mercy (Prasaad) that this happens.


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## Harkiran Kaur

Also reference the perfection of Earth, I am sure you know that In even our galaxy alone there are over 100 billion stars, and even if you take only 1% of those as having a solar system, and only 1% of those having planets with solid surface and only 1& of those in the 'liquid water zone' you will still have millions of possibilities for life. That's just our own galaxy the milky way. Hubble space telescope had looked for 11 days at one part the sky which seemed to be dark (as in no visible stars) and what they saw blew everyone away. In one tiny spot in the sky, where seemingly nothing existed this is what they saw! 
(Note that every single blur dot and smear on the image is an ENTIRE galaxy, some smaller some larger than ours but ALL of them with billions of stars each). Still think Earth is the only planet created so perfectly for life? Gurbani actually mentions that there are countless of galaxies...


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## chazSingh

Theologian said:


> He is caught and thrown into the most horrible hell - SGGS Page 309



There are many layers to Gurbani...and on many instances also refers to ones state of mind being in hell or heaven state. Also Gurbani talks of inner world, realms, dimensions etc etc..

So i'm leaning towards the state of ones mind determining what you see, experience etc etc through our existence in this vast creation of inner worlds, realms, dimensions.

the shabad you listed above gives so much in-site on this, it's amazing...and i'm glad you listed it..

_The human body is a great fortress, with its shops and streets within.
The Gurmukh who comes to trade gathers the cargo of the Lord's Name
He deals in the treasure of the Lord's Name, the jewels and the diamonds.
Those who search for this treasure outside of the body, in other places, are foolish demons.
They wander around in the wilderness of doubt, like the deer who searches for the musk in the bushes. _


Amazing don't you think...it tells us where to look? where everything is accessible...through the stargate of the body...and we as human beings have this jewel of an opportunity to experience, today..whilst alive..

thats if we look in the right direction 
*
Maybe we will get all the answers to these questions 'First Hand'*


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## sukhsingh

Theologian said:


> impressed by your maturity and wisdom


And do you think you could demonstrate some... You were quick to judge but not so quick to apologise..?


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## Theologian

sukhsingh said:


> And do you think you could demonstrate some... You were quick to judge but not so quick to apologise..?


 
Hey there hope you doing good


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## sukhsingh

Theologian said:


> Hey there hope you doing good


I'm doing very well thank you I thought after your haste response judging me you may have responded with some grace. Evidently not.. Maybe you were 'projecting'? 
Sukh


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