# Aim Of Debasing Oneself In Gurbani



## Ishna (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi everyone, Please take a moment to read the this part of Hukamnama 22/11/10: _*BIHAAGRAA, FIFTH MEHL: Grant Your Grace, O Guru, O Perfect Supreme Lord God, that I might chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, night and day. I speak the Ambrosial Words of the Guru’s Bani, praising the Lord. Your Will seems so sweet to me, Lord. Show kindness and compassion, O Lord of the Word, Lord of the Universe; without You, I have no other at all. Almighty, sublime, infinite and perfect Lord, my soul, body, wealth and mind are Yours. I am foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant. Prays Nanak, I seek Your Sanctuary — please save me from coming and going in reincarnation. || 1 ||*_


I have underlined the sentence which is an example of debasing oneself in Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has many such phrases. I’m curious as to the frame of mind and self-perception the Guru is trying to instil in us.



It brings peace to feel foolish, stupid and masterless, as if instead of trying to swim upstream one ceases the struggle and goes along with the flow (Hukam).


Feeling ignorant, lowly and fickle brings humility to the reader, so the reader is not full of pride and arrogance.



But where does a sense of self-esteem fit into one’s psyche? Speaking as a Westerner, we are raised to believe in ourselves, be confident, develop and use our skills, and aim to do our best. We’re told not to let other’s debase us, to be strong and stand our ground. Is it wrong to feel this way?



If one lacks self-esteem, isn’t one at risk of being abused? If I am so lowly and worthless, why should my neighbour not steal from me and my husband not beat me? If I am so stupid, is it not better for me to bow to the directions of others? Obviously not, or else Sikhs wouldn’t be here today!


I’m interested to hear the sangat’s views on this.


Thank you in advance
Ishna


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## spnadmin (Nov 22, 2010)

This is a very good question, and I am interested in sangat's views too!   :blinkingkaur:


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## Archived_member14 (Nov 23, 2010)

Ishna ji,


I was waiting for the more knowledgeable members to respond, but since this thread may end up being lost under the pile of the more recent posts, I am responding in order to draw the attention. Although I won’t be representing the Sikh perspective, I hope nevertheless to be able to contribute positively.


Quote:
It brings peace to feel foolish, stupid and masterless, as if instead of trying to swim upstream one ceases the struggle and goes along with the flow (Hukam).

C: I wouldn’t say that it brings peace to *feel* foolish etc. but rather that it is good to *know* the truth, which is that it is characterized by a level of detachment. In other words, when the truth is known, it is accepted. But this is not some general idea based on observation of outward behavior or feedback from other people, since this will cause resistance in one form or the other which is manifestation in fact, of attachment. The reason that our life is full of unnecessary struggle is exactly because we don’t know ourselves and don’t want to. 

=========
Ishna:
Feeling ignorant, lowly and fickle brings humility to the reader, so the reader is not full of pride and arrogance.

C: I think that it may be an encouragement to know yourself as you are. I would suggest that that no good comes from feeling worthless, which is rather a manifestation of conceit. But any instance of understanding who we are, is a step away from ignorance, whereas when there is a feeling of worthlessness, this is in fact accompanied by ignorance.

========
Ishna:
But where does a sense of self-esteem fit into one’s psyche? Speaking as a Westerner, we are raised to believe in ourselves, be confident, develop and use our skills, and aim to do our best. We’re told not to let other’s debase us, to be strong and stand our ground. Is it wrong to feel this way?

C: Having a correct estimation of oneself, works against the tendency to both, ‘believing in oneself’ as well as to ‘feeling of worthlessness’. These two are reflection of the lack in both, understanding as well as faith in the good. 

Forget about worldly values if you wish to develop moral ones. 

We don’t need to have self-esteem etc. since this would only be giving oneself more excuse to behave self-centeredly. What we need to realize is that all of us do indeed love our own self more than anyone else in the world. Our relationship with our family for example, is all about making ourselves feel happier. Also when attempting to do good towards other people, the underlying motivation is likely this attachment that we have to ‘self’. Even in the case of those people who feel lousy about themselves, it is this self-concern which is the cause. So we don’t really need to be told at all about the need for self-preservation. We do it anyway, only in our own peculiar ways, all of these however result in harm about which we don’t usually realize…..

=========
Ishna:
If one lacks self-esteem, isn’t one at risk of being abused? 

C: The only real enemies that one has are one’s own ignorance and attachment and the hordes they bring along. If you come to understand yourself and have confidence in the power of good deeds, you’d be independent of other people’s actions. This, together with the understanding about karma, would make you realize that other people can’t really harm you.

Try kindness and you may discover that your fears are unfounded.

=========
Ishna:
If I am so lowly and worthless, why should my neighbour not steal from me and my husband not beat me? 

C: I’d liken such thinking as the working of Maya. It is the kind of reasoning self-attachment makes in order that it feels justified in continuing to do what it does. 

But alas this is all we know. We have not for example, been aware of moments when there is some genuine kindness and seen its effects. At such times, no one is our enemy and hence we’d not feel threatened by anyone’s behavior. 

==========
Ishna:
If I am so stupid, is it not better for me to bow to the directions of others? Obviously not, or else Sikhs wouldn’t be here today!


C: No one really thinks he is so stupid that he should then follow the dictates of other people. People do what they do, and neither is following one’s own religion nor is being influenced by another is fruitful, if attachment is at the root of it. And from the standpoint of self-attachment which is what it usually comes down to, can one then say that one is doing good towards one’s own religion? Is the source of inspiration not the teachings about the value of goodness and the harm of evil? If so, is this not the one reason why people should follow and the religion survives? 

Hope the above has helped some.


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## findingmyway (Nov 29, 2010)

Ishna Ji,
Please could you provide the original gurbani or page number? I'm not fond of English translations so can't comment as is at the moment!
Thanks,
Jasleen


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 29, 2010)

Ref:Aim of Debasing oneself in Gurbaani

The reference of the SHABAD from SGGS ji is visible on pp 543 BIHAAGRA M 5'
In Gurbaani whereverthere are verses signifying the debasement of oneself,these are 
are relative to THE CREATOR and not relative to the wordly self esteem.So there is no risk of selfesteem being lowered in any way.
As a matter of fact Gurbaani makes our mind stronger and stronger even in the most 
unpleasent situations of the life cycle.canacquire the properties as mentioned in the very first line of SGGS ji Such person can attain the heighest State in wordly affairs as well.
So it only the proper understanding of the context of Gurbaani which is important.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Rupinder.Singh (Nov 29, 2010)

Guru Granth Sahib Page 543
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥  

ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
बिहागड़ा महला ५ ॥
Bihāgaṛā mėhlā 5.
Bihaagraa, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
करि किरपा गुर पारब्रहम पूरे अनदिनु नामु वखाणा राम ॥
Kar kirpā gur pārbarahm pūre an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇā rām.
Shower Your Mercy upon me, O Guru, O Perfect Supreme Lord God, that I might chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, night and day.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਉਚਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
अम्रित बाणी उचरा हरि जसु मिठा लागै तेरा भाणा राम ॥
Amriṯ baṇī ucẖrā har jas miṯẖā lāgai ṯerā bẖāṇā rām.
I speak the Ambrosial Words of the Guru's Bani, praising the Lord. Your Will is sweet to me, Lord.

ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਮਇਆ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਕੋਇ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨਾ ॥
करि दइआ मइआ गोपाल गोबिंद कोइ नाही तुझ बिना ॥
Kar ḏa▫i▫ā ma▫i▫ā gopāl gobinḏ ko▫e nāhī ṯujẖ binā.
Show kindness and compassion, O Sustainer of the Word, Lord of the Universe; without You, I have no other.

ਸਮਰਥ ਅਗਥ ਅਪਾਰ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੀਉ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਾ ॥
समरथ अगथ अपार पूरन जीउ तनु धनु तुम्ह मना ॥
Samrath agath apār pūran jī▫o ṯan ḏẖan ṯumĥ manā.
Almighty, sublime, infinite, perfect Lord - my soul, body, wealth and mind are Yours.

ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਅਨਾਥ ਚੰਚਲ ਬਲਹੀਨ ਨੀਚ ਅਜਾਣਾ ॥
मूरख मुगध अनाथ चंचल बलहीन नीच अजाणा ॥
Mūrakẖ mugaḏẖ anāth cẖancẖal balhīn nīcẖ ajāṇā.
I am foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੧॥
बिनवंति नानक सरणि तेरी रखि लेहु आवण जाणा ॥१॥
Binvanṯ Nānak saraṇ ṯerī rakẖ leho āvaṇ jāṇā. ||1||
Prays Nanak, I seek Your Sanctuary - please save me from coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||

ਸਾਧਹ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹ ਹਰਿ ਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
साधह सरणी पाईऐ हरि जीउ गुण गावह हरि नीता राम ॥
Sāḏẖah sarṇī pā▫ī▫ai har jī▫o guṇ gāvah har nīṯā rām.
In the Sanctuary of the Holy Saints, I have found the Dear Lord, and I constantly sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.

ਧੂਰਿ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਗਉ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭ ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
धूरि भगतन की मनि तनि लगउ हरि जीउ सभ पतित पुनीता राम ॥
Ḏẖūr bẖagṯan kī man ṯan laga▫o har jī▫o sabẖ paṯiṯ punīṯā rām.
Applying the dust of the devotees to the mind and body, O Dear Lord, all sinners are sanctified.

ਪਤਿਤਾ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਹੋਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
पतिता पुनीता होहि तिन्ह संगि जिन्ह बिधाता पाइआ ॥
Paṯiṯā punīṯā hohi ṯinĥ sang jinĥ biḏẖāṯā pā▫i▫ā.
The sinners are sanctified in the company of those who have met the Creator Lord.

ਨਾਮ ਰਾਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਦਾਤੇ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਹਿ ਚੜਹਿ ਸਵਾਇਆ ॥
नाम राते जीअ दाते नित देहि चड़हि सवाइआ ॥
Nām rāṯe jī▫a ḏāṯe niṯ ḏėh cẖaṛėh savā▫i▫ā.
Imbued with the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they are given the gift of the life of the soul; their gifts increase day by day.

ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਜੀਤਾ ॥
रिधि सिधि नव निधि हरि जपि जिनी आतमु जीता ॥
Riḏẖ siḏẖ nav niḏẖ har jap jinī āṯam jīṯā.
Wealth, the supernatural spiritual powers of the Siddhas, and the nine treasures come to those who meditate on the Lord, and conquer their own soul.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵਡਭਾਗਿ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਾਜਨ ਮੀਤਾ ॥੨॥
बिनवंति नानकु वडभागि पाईअहि साध साजन मीता ॥२॥
Binvanṯ Nānak vadbẖāg pā▫ī▫ah sāḏẖ sājan mīṯā. ||2||
Prays Nanak, it is only by great good fortune that the Holy Saints, the Lord's companions, are found, O friends. ||2||

ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
जिनी सचु वणंजिआ हरि जीउ से पूरे साहा राम ॥
Jinī sacẖ vaṇanji▫ā har jī▫o se pūre sāhā rām.
Those who deal in Truth, O Dear Lord, are the perfect bankers.

ਬਹੁਤੁ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਤਿੰਨ ਪਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਲਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
बहुतु खजाना तिंन पहि हरि जीउ हरि कीरतनु लाहा राम ॥
Bahuṯ kẖajānā ṯinn pėh har jī▫o har kīrṯan lāhā rām.
They possess the great treasure, O Dear Lord, and they reap the profit of the Lord's Praise.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਨ ਲੋਭੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਤਿਆ ॥
कामु क्रोधु न लोभु बिआपै जो जन प्रभ सिउ रातिआ ॥
Kām kroḏẖ na lobẖ bi▫āpai jo jan parabẖ si▫o rāṯi▫ā.
Sexual desire, anger and greed do not cling to those who are attuned to God.

ਏਕੁ ਜਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਮਾਨਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਤਿਆ ॥
एकु जानहि एकु मानहि राम कै रंगि मातिआ ॥
Ėk jānėh ek mānėh rām kai rang māṯi▫ā.
They know the One, and they believe in the One; they are intoxicated with the Lord's Love.

ਲਗਿ ਸੰਤ ਚਰਣੀ ਪੜੇ ਸਰਣੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਿਨਾ ਓਮਾਹਾ ॥
लगि संत चरणी पड़े सरणी मनि तिना ओमाहा ॥
Lag sanṯ cẖarṇī paṛe sarṇī man ṯinā omāhā.
They fall at the Feet of the Saints, and seek their Sanctuary; their minds are filled with joy.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਲੈ ਸੇਈ ਸਚੇ ਸਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
बिनवंति नानकु जिन नामु पलै सेई सचे साहा ॥३॥
Binvanṯ Nānak jin nām palai se▫ī sacẖe sāhā. ||3||
Prays Nanak, those who have the Naam in their laps are the true bankers. ||3||

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
नानक सोई सिमरीऐ हरि जीउ जा की कल धारी राम ॥
Nānak so▫ī simrī▫ai har jī▫o jā kī kal ḏẖārī rām.
O Nanak, meditate on that Dear Lord, who supports all by His almighty strength.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
गुरमुखि मनहु न वीसरै हरि जीउ करता पुरखु मुरारी राम ॥
Gurmukẖ manhu na vīsrai har jī▫o karṯā purakẖ murārī rām.
In their minds, the Gurmukhs do not forget the Dear Lord, the Primal Creator Lord.

ਦੂਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
दूखु रोगु न भउ बिआपै जिन्ही हरि हरि धिआइआ ॥
Ḏūkẖ rog na bẖa▫o bi▫āpai jinĥī har har ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā.
Pain, disease and fear do not cling to those who meditate on the Lord, Har, Har.

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਰੇ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
संत प्रसादि तरे भवजलु पूरबि लिखिआ पाइआ ॥
Sanṯ parsāḏ ṯare bẖavjal pūrab likẖi▫ā pā▫i▫ā.
By the Grace of the Saints, they cross over the terrifying world-ocean, and obtain their pre-ordained destiny.

ਵਜੀ ਵਧਾਈ ਮਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਆਈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਪਾਰੀ ॥
वजी वधाई मनि सांति आई मिलिआ पुरखु अपारी ॥
vajī vaḏẖā▫ī man sāŉṯ ā▫ī mili▫ā purakẖ apārī.
They are congratulated and applauded, their minds are at peace, and they meet the infinite Lord God.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਇਛ ਪੁੰਨੀ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
बिनवंति नानकु सिमरि हरि हरि इछ पुंनी हमारी ॥४॥३॥
Binvanṯ Nānak simar har har icẖẖ punnī hamārī. ||4||3||
Prays Nanak, by meditating in remembrance on the Lord, Har, Har, my desires are fulfilled. ||4||3||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 29, 2010)

RUPINDER SINGH JI,
I appreciate you for depicting the complete Shabad related to the Topic.

With many thanks

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ishna (Nov 29, 2010)

Thank you Prakash S Bagga ji for pointing it the comparison is between the individual and God.

Findingmyway ji, I didn't put the ang number as when I receive Hukamnamas to my email address, the provider doesn't put the ang number and I didn't have time to look it up - sorry!!

Gurbani is so beautiful but so difficult for me to understand. 

Thank you all for your help.

Ishna


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 29, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Please take a moment to read the this part of Hukamnama 22/11/10:
> 
> ...


 
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Dear Ishna,

Our mind is foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and 
ignorant 

without learning of Guru's Bani.

While the same mind can be  strong enough to take any challange. It is not the argument for the outer world, 

this is for the weak self and all powerful self.

 One has to conquer his/her weak self to meet the challanges of outer world.

Mind Thoughts which keep you low, one has to conquer first, 

through GURU BANI in soul and action. One can conquer his weak mind, and than take the challanges of outer world.



Regards


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## kawal320 (Nov 29, 2010)

This line which is underlined should not be read out of contest. This line's meaning should be in relation to the whole paragraph. Here one is being compared to Akalpurkh God who is creator of the universe. So in this para  comparison is not with your friend, but God





t


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## ajaybills (Nov 29, 2010)

No where Sikhs have been asked to debase themselves while dealing with the world. 

Raaj Karega Khalsa Aaki Rahe Na koye.... It is just that while in front of Waheguru( Almighty) we are definitely foolish,stupid weak or whatever lower degrees you might wish to assign.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 30, 2010)

ISHNA Ji,
I thankyou for your response to the posting.Gurbaani is really so beautiful but at the same time it should not be difficult as Gurbaani is a most simple way of union of ours with the CREATOR of the universe .Only you may be required to develop affection for Gurbaani words.Gradually you will find You are being explained Gurbaani words by GURU
itself.That is the beauti of Gurbaani.
With best wishes 
Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## gurbanicd (Nov 30, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Please take a moment to read the this part of Hukamnama 22/11/10:
> 
> ...






waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh




1. the whole gurbani concept moves on NAAM ( remembering the unseen creator with love respect and all the time......)


2. The more we see the universe more we realize that we are nothing in comparison to creator .around 700 crore human being alone are there on the earth only, apart from the other species, universe galaxies known and unknown.






so we are  foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant. in comparison to that ultimate.




otherwise "ek nooor te sabh jag upjia" 



3. Guru Arjan Ji gave sacrifice


Guru Hargobind ji fought the battle


Guru Teg bahadur ji gave sacrifice


Guru Gobind Singh ji fought the battles


only in the hukum of waheguru, ram, god, allah whatever way we love him.


It is not easy to sacrifice and not easy to fight the mighty rulers.


Even after having so much powers at their disposal they always used them as HUKUM showing themselves as foolish, powerless stupid and so on. This also is unparalleled. 



there are many gurbani reference 



A) aaps ko jo jaane neecha...


B) anhonda aap vandaey so eaisA bhagat saday...


C) ho sabhna ki renka tau aao haamrey paaas.







bhula chukan di  khima ji


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## Balkar Singh (Nov 30, 2010)

Dear Ishna, Gurufateh jio.
   Gurbani is a spiritual teaching. plz take it not in worldy meanings. The words, you have underlined, are never in the meanings you said but to shed EGO ( ahankaar ) which is most powerful of the five evils. That is all. Satguru bless you.
                                                        With regards, Balkar Singh Goraya


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## ballym (Nov 30, 2010)

As is stated above.. I would like to say that you are asked to be *foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant,* only in comparison to God.

It directs you to be so with God only so that you need not be so with others (worldly people).

This COMPLETE SURRENDER, unconditional surrender makes you more strong when you deal with worldly people.

You can also think it this way that you can have all this lowly feelings expressed when you are in dialogue with God( simran time, Pooja time, Paath time, church time, Mosque/ Namaaz time). Then your quota of feeling lowly is complete and you will have full confident feeling for rest of your time dealing with worldly affairs.

Like when you want to weep for some reason and you actually do, then you feel more relieved afterwards.

Keep it simple!


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## max314 (Nov 30, 2010)

To conquer one's ego is not to be confused with low self-esteem.

One who has conquered ego is calm and contented.

One who has low self-esteem is always in pain.


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## Ishna (Nov 30, 2010)

Thank you all for your comments.  This is a truly valuable sangat. 

Ishna


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 30, 2010)

gurbanicd said:


> waheguru ji ka khalsa
> waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> 
> ...


Dear Kawal,

SAT SRI AKAAL,

Yes, I fully agree with written, 
I have also tried to write the same to Ishna. I hope my words were not as strong to convey the message in right way.

What I feel Reading/Writting/Listening/Preaching   are aside

*"PRACTISING"* Guru's Bani makes difference in "SELF" only with his grace,

and "actions" reflects the "PRACTISE"



our stupid, foolish, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant. make us do the actions for which we bear the same fruits.

If we leave our mind and 

*"PRACTISE"* GURU's Bani world is all together different.

It's all with his grace, only 

That Supreme can Improve "SELF"

With Regards



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## lAKHJEET SINGH (Dec 1, 2010)

Dear Friend, I am a 47 years old having full faith and follower of sikhism.  Pl. do not take Gurbani meaning as they are read, I mean nimana, foolish etc.  Here what you feel is something entirely different from the quoted gurbani.  Whereever in Granth Sahib Guru Sahiban wrote these lines means that before the Almighty you are foolish, nimana or whatever you are feeling.  You see in society everybody wants to achieve his/her goal with hook or crook.  From your acts a living person can judge your way of living, thinking etc.  but when it comes to your inner mind then only Almighty can read.  You might be knowing computer, there are small chips having machine language.  Who can read this machine language you, me, no, it is only the company's top software development team.  Same thing is here.  
Here Guruji says if you want to attain the super power then you cannot get it with your wisdom, clever tricks, this  means you are sitting by closing your eyes saying SATNAM, WAHEGURU but your mind is in the PUB/ with friends then you are not getting anything.  So from Almighty you can get everything by becoming foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant  and not before the other people.  
Further getting and loosing anything is not in one's hand  and so on.


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## JimRinX (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm a Westerner and, though I list myself as Mahayana Budhist (and my answer will reflect that!), I'm really more of a 'Pan-Religionist' - so I think some references from other beliefs will be the best response; as Sikhism, it would seem to me, is a perfect - or near perfect - Belief, because it seems to encompase ALL of the Kernels Of Truth that most other Beliefs only teach some of.
Thus: I think reading (or re-reading) Lao Tsu would help you find the answer you seek; just as it would also help you to remember that this is a Samsara Realm - one where the ordinary temptations of Maya are part of the 'curriculum'; the 'study course' of Life itself, by which we are able, through action and interaction with the temptations and challenges of ordinary existence, achieve the Higher State (Nirvana) of Consciousness that we MUST achieve to be accepted, and thus to stay in Shambala (or; to be released from the cycle of death and rebirth).
Guru Nanak ji was giving you the tools to see through, and overcome the obsticles that plague our ordinary experience as Human Beings, by encouraging you to acknowledge the existence of our own worst enemy; our Ego, our Desires, and all of the other things in life that hold us back - that cause Suffering; so that you can fight against them, and become a better person.
As far as the 'Western Ideals' that we are 'brought up on', well......how many Wealthy, Famous, but ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE Westerners do you know?
Why would I leave the Catholic Church to become a Buddhist?
Why am I, though a poor, disabled, Social Security Disability Pensioner who lives every day with Chroinc Pain - who lost my Career and most of my Hobbies - why am I, nonetheless, Very HAPPY?!?peacesign


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## Archived_member14 (Dec 1, 2010)

JimRinX,



JimRinX said:


> I'm a Westerner and, though I list myself as Mahayana Budhist (and my answer will reflect that!), I'm really more of a 'Pan-Religionist' - so I think some references from other beliefs will be the best response; as Sikhism, it would seem to me, is a perfect - or near perfect - Belief, because it seems to encompase ALL of the Kernels Of Truth that most other Beliefs only teach some of.
> Thus: I think reading (or re-reading) Lao Tsu would help you find the answer you seek; just as it would also help you to remember that this is a Samsara Realm - one where the ordinary temptations of Maya are part of the 'curriculum'; the 'study course' of Life itself, by which we are able, through action and interaction with the temptations and challenges of ordinary existence, achieve the Higher State (Nirvana) of Consciousness that we MUST achieve to be accepted, and thus to stay in Shambala (or; to be released from the cycle of death and rebirth).




I don’t know what pan-religionist is, but after reading your first sentence, the idea of “khoa pad ruam mitr” or ‘fried rice with assorted meats’ cropped into my mind. This was once a popular dish served in Thailand which I never really enjoyed since it had beside egg, pork, chicken, cuttlefish, prawn and crab meat and I could never really get a good taste of any of these meats. And as I read on, “Radha Soami” also came to mind, and this is something I’ve always felt aversion towards. 

Lao Tzu, I used to like once and even had five different versions of Tao Te Ching. But this was when I was strongly attracted to Mahayana Buddhism as you are, but before I finally settled on the Theravada tradition. Now I don’t read anything else and disagree with the basic positions of all other religions. I’m particularly critical of Mahayana Buddhism, but more off-putting is the tendency to take ideas from this and that religion and trying to create some sort of amalgam.  Or having some vague idea about “enlightenment”, projecting this and claiming then that all “paths lead to the same goal”. Or those who after studying the various religions, conclude that different religions are aimed at different levels in the ‘spectrum of consciousness’, and create all sorts of new theories in the process and as consequence.

JimRinX, you may or may not like to discuss any of this. But if you do, then I suggest that we start a new thread in the Interfaith Dialogues section.


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## JimRinX (Dec 2, 2010)

Whoa there, Confused ji!
You asked about the purpose of "debasing oneself", and I gave you my answer; along with some background info, so that you would know where my own points of view come from.
I recommended that you seek the answer wherever you find it - even if that source is not the venerable Guru Granth Sahib.
I take part in this forum out of my profound respect for Sikhism; and you yourself (I think) just identified yourself as a Theravada Buddhist.
I'm Mahayana because I've had an experience that proved to me that the Clear Light and Formeless Realm are very, very real; and I've read more than one Therevada Masters Writings, in which they deny this - saying the Clear Light is "Atman", and the Buddha said No Atman 
Really, just like the Sikhi, Buddha was just saying no CASTE; which, in traditional Hinduism, is an integral part of "Atman" - but, if there was No Clear Light, what part of us 'goes on' from one Incarnation to another? What was the mysterious thing that came into the Jedda Grove, filing the air with POWER, when the Buddha sat teaching? A Clear Light Diety Entity - that's what! Our Beautiful LORD, that's what! So, you see, I'm not so far off the Sikhi Path; as I agree with them, and wish to Honor Them for being so wonderful!
Now I AM off the theme of this Thread; and someday, time permiting (it's not), I will start that Interfaith Dialog - these comments, as I indicated, were aimed at answering what self-abasement is for.
If you'd like to know more about why I think I should have such opinions - or why anyone should care; then read my Introducing Myself and/or Bio Entry. I had a Very Special Blessing bestowed upon me; and I'm working to seal the 'schism' between the Theravada and Mahayana Communties - as I kind of promised you-know-who that I'd try to do things like that.
Peace!


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2010)

IMHO there is no problem in clarifying one's starting points and assumptions in a discussion that contains some subtle and some difficult concepts. So long as the thread does not morph into a discussion of Buddhism things should go well.


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## Archived_member14 (Dec 2, 2010)

JimRinX,




JimRinX said:


> Now I AM off the theme of this Thread; and someday, time permiting (it's not), I will start that Interfaith Dialog - these comments, as I indicated, were aimed at answering what self-abasement is for.
> If you'd like to know more about why I think I should have such opinions - or why anyone should care; then read my Introducing Myself and/or Bio Entry. I had a Very Special Blessing bestowed upon me; and I'm working to seal the 'schism' between the Theravada and Mahayana Communties - as I kind of promised you-know-who that I'd try to do things like that.
> Peace!




Thanks for directing me to your bio.
As it is likely that any discussion between us is going to end up being all about Buddhism, I think it a good idea not to start the discussion I had suggested we do.


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2010)

Confused ji

You could have this discussion in Interfaith dialogs under Buddhism without any problem. The rest of us might learn something about differences within Buddhism. I know I would.


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## Archived_member14 (Dec 2, 2010)

Spnadmin ji,




spnadmin said:


> Confused ji
> 
> You could have this discussion in Interfaith dialogs under Buddhism without any problem. The rest of us might learn something about differences within Buddhism. I know I would.




This was only one of the reasons. From reading JimRinX’s bio I got the impression that the difference in the understanding is so great that more bad than good would come out of any discussion between us. Besides, on one hand is someone who considers himself to be having only a kindergarten level of understanding and interested only in mundane, moment to moment experiences, whereas on the other hand, is someone who thinks he has had direct experience and deep understanding of something out of the ordinary.  

I find the Mahayana to be reflection of the individual’s inability to grasp and therefore accept the concept of Anatta. And I don’t think there is any use in having any so called, Mahayana - Theravada dialogue since this would complicate things even more, also for outsiders. My interest in the Dhamma is based on the fact of it being about very ordinary day to day experiences, verifiable as per the level of understanding. I would not go by the label of Buddhism, preferring to just talk about the ‘truth’ if it wasn’t for the fact that I couldn’t have arrived at the understanding on my own and being so feeble at that. Moreover as you may know by now, I disagree with 99% of what is out there as representative of Theravada as well, which I consider also as due to failure at understanding Anatta.  

So who would then really believe me to be representing the Buddha’s true teachings in any such dialogue, given that whatever the Buddha taught must in fact be read in the light of this understanding about Anatta and conditionality. And if someone is interested only to think and philosophize about such things, this I don’t want to encourage either.....


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2010)

Confused ji

Your insights are very helpful. So then we can stay on the topic of this thread...and if the need arises later to clarify any concepts from Buddhism there is a space in the forum to do that.


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## jsdhalle (Dec 6, 2010)

Ishna Ji & all other contributors, 

I would like to put down some little words of mine into the discussion, connecting a few more wires in here: Why do we touch the feet of our elders? Why do we bow down in front of Guru Granth Sahib? What is the Psycho analysis here? As being follower of Sikhism-The most modern and well understood religion of the World, I interpret these words as follows; When a person bows down in front of another person, it is a symbol of surrendering one's self to the elder person or in front of whom we bow. By doing this, the level of thinking or what we call 'ego', comes down (Internally or psychologically). When this happens, transfer of the elder's views and blessings takes place towards the person who bows down. And when the young ones don't bow down, it is treated as bad manners. Why? Because it shows that the young one is not ready to surrender his ego in front of the elder and thus the flow of information does not take place. Bowing down is also a sign of defeat as in wars etc. Defeat of what? It's actually the EGO!
Now in our case, we are talking about Debasing ourself in front of the Almighty Waheguru. The above mentioned example can be co-related to this instance wherein we as the younger one have to lower our egoes and surrender in front of Waheguru so that whatever He tries to teach/tell us, is understood by us. It's all the same as bowing down while going in front of the Guru Sahib. These words were meant to bring the mental level of the reader of the verses to a lower level than that of the Guru Sahib, so that he can understand what Guru Granth Sahib wants to Teach/Inspire him of. This is definitely not applicable to other worldly matters or people around you (At the same time not being too egoistic or nassicst). So we do not need to be afraid thinking that our self esteem gets hampered or we get easily hurt when we lower our self esteem in front of the Super Natural. 

And Ultimately speaking, ones you lower youself and UNDERSTAND what Guru Sahib wants to teach you, you will automatically get the answer of your own question.

Gur Fateh!


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## findingmyway (Dec 7, 2010)

This is my understanding of the shabad.



Rupinder.Singh said:


> Guru Granth Sahib Page 543
> ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
> 
> ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> ...



The  shabad starts by praising Ik Oankar and asking for blessings so that I  may always remember You and act according to your will. I sing songs of  your greatness and think your will sweet. O Waheguru have compassion on  me, pity me as without Your support, I have no-one. O indescribable,  limitless, boundless lord of everything, you have given me this life,  this body and soul. Prays Nanak, I am very foolish, destitute, weak,  lowly, restless and immature without you and seek your shelter to escape  rebirth.




> ਸਾਧਹ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹ ਹਰਿ ਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
> Sāḏẖah sarṇī pā▫ī▫ai har jī▫o guṇ gāvah har nīṯā rām.
> 
> ਧੂਰਿ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਗਉ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭ ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
> ...



In  the company of Gurmukhs, Parmesar (God) is found so we can always sing  your praises (and live as Gurmukhs too). I hope that the teachings of  your devotees become enshrined in my mind and body as this can make even  the fallen pure. By staying in the company of those who have found God,  the immoral become spiritually alive. Those who are coloured with naam  become worthy of receiving Her gifts, which keep on increasing. Those  who live by the word of Gurbani and incorporate into their entire being,  receive miraculous strength (inner strength like the shaheeds had to  withstand torture) and treasures (spiritual treasures). Nanak prays as  Gurmukh friends are only met with luck




> ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
> Jinī sacẖ vaṇanji▫ā har jī▫o se pūre sāhā rām.
> 
> ਬਹੁਤੁ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਤਿੰਨ ਪਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਲਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
> ...



Those  who are always connected to Ik Oankar, the the truth are the bankers of  full stores of naam, benefiting from singing Her praises. Those who are  connected to Ik Oankaar are not affected by lust, anger or greed. Nor  can anyone subject them to their own will by force as they are only in a  close relationship with Waheguru and accept no other. They remain  absorbed in the love of Waheguru. Ik Oankar is their support and they  have a need to connect with Her. Nanak prays that whoever comes close to  the naam should always remain a good banker.




> ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
> Nānak so▫ī simrī▫ai har jī▫o jā kī kal ḏẖārī rām.
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
> ...



Nanak  says that we should always be following the one by whose creation we  are surrounded. We must never let the omnipresent Lord slip from our  mind. One who is successful in this will not be stressed out by illness,  sadness or fear. They have the Guru's help and blessing to cross the  world ocean (difficult life). They have their good deeds from their  lifetime written on their foreheads. They are infused with Chardi Kala  and their minds are at peace, they have found the limitless God. Nanak  prays that his wish to connect with Ik Oankar will also be granted by  following and singing the naam


To summarise, the 1st pauri  talks about why we need Ik Oankaar's support. Our mind is lowly etc as  it is filled with lust, anger and greed-thats why. The 2nd pauri  explains how to remedy this. The 3rd pauri details the rewards and the  4th pauri reminds us of the best way to live 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Let's have some chardi kala ice cream courtesy of Mai ji icecreamkudi


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