# Sunny Leone Should Be Excommunicated?



## Randip Singh (Jun 27, 2009)

Hi All,

I had an e-mail from a friend who edits on wikipedia, on an account I used to have. He has come up against this article:

Sunny Leone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He is trying to add in that Sunny Leone is not a practising Sikh, but there are a couple of editor there who I guess specialise in pornography who wish to delete what he wishes to add probably because they wish to publicise she is a Sikh for Sales.

In any case, shouldn't people like this be excommunicated formaly from Sikhi rather than people like Kala Afghana? I mean, Ok, if she wants to be a pornstar, that is fine, but why is she claiming to be a Sikh? Has she taken Amrit? does she wear the 5k's? At best she is an apostate Sikh?

Any views?


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## deepsingh87 (Jun 27, 2009)

90 percent of sikhs have not taken amirt. sunny leon is not even a sikh name. she is probably confusing sikh with being punjabi.


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## dalsingh (Jun 27, 2009)

> Even though Leone tries to maintain a link to Sikh traditions, this is in theory rather than practice with her career.[5]


 
I wonder how she manages that?


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2009)

funny though... I thought she was using Leone for Singhni ...but maybe was imagining.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 27, 2009)

Leone..Female Lion..lioness ?? funny thought.. aad ji..you set me imagining too..wow


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 28, 2009)

QUOTE:.<<Even though Leone tries to maintain a link to Sikh traditions, this is in theory rather than practice.[5] She has also said that she is unlikely to leave the adult film industry due to religion, saying that "girls will leave the industry claiming that they found God. Well, the fact is, God has always been with them the entire time...

TRUE..God is there all the time....perfectly correct according  to Sikh Doctrine...as we dont have any satan etc....ALL is GOD.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 28, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> QUOTE:.<<Even though Leone tries to maintain a link to Sikh traditions, this is in theory rather than practice.[5] She has also said that she is unlikely to leave the adult film industry due to religion, saying that "girls will leave the industry claiming that they found God. Well, the fact is, God has always been with them the entire time...
> 
> TRUE..God is there all the time....perfectly correct according  to Sikh Doctrine...as we dont have any satan etc....ALL is GOD.




True, but does not fixation with Kaam (in this instance), take us further from God?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 28, 2009)

randip singh said:


> True, but does not fixation with Kaam (in this instance), take us further from God?




Randip Ji..OF COURSE IT DOES..Fixation with Food, sugar..meat..milk..kheer..maya..flashy cars..ANYTHING..takes us FURTHER AWAY from Guru Ji... Spot ON.
so she is no different from Many of us...here the Jesus saying applies..Any who has not sinned cast the first stone...


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## Randip Singh (Jun 28, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Randip Ji..OF COURSE IT DOES..Fixation with Food, sugar..meat..milk..kheer..maya..flashy cars..ANYTHING..takes us FURTHER AWAY from Guru Ji... Spot ON.
> so she is no different from Many of us...here the Jesus saying applies..Any who has not sinned cast the first stone...



Indeed it does.

It just unnerves me that people for the sake of money, materialism, egotism are willing to show off their private parts and intimate details and still claim to be followers of the Sikh Guru.

The thought of people watching films like that and saying, look she is a Sikh! Sikh's who for the sake of their faith watched their children die, died themselves, starved to death.....but never shamed themselves.

Don't get me wrong if she was a man, I would be just as much outraged, but to see the word Sikh and Pornography together just makes me cringe.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

She isn't a Sikh anyways. She does bajjar kurehits. She is automatically excommunicated. We don't need Sikhs like her. Has she made any movies based on charitropakhyan?


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## spnadmin (Jun 29, 2009)

Khalsa Fauj ji

Help me out with the Punjabi terminology. What is bajjar kurehits? Vocabulary lesson for me.


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## susan (Jun 29, 2009)

Poor soul. It makes me sad when women need to go to these extremes. She is missing out on soooooo much. Sometimes we are meant to struggle in unimaginable ways in order to surrender to him.

 Japji Sahib Ang 5 Pauri 25
bhuqw krmu iliKAw nw jwie ] (5-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
bahutaa karam likhi-aa naa jaa-ay.
His Blessings are so abundant that there can be no written account of them.
vfw dwqw iqlu n qmwie ] (5-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
vadaa daataa til na tamaa-ay.
The Great Giver does not hold back anything.
kyqy mMgih joD Apwr ] (5-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
kaytay mangahi joDh apaar.
There are so many great, heroic warriors begging at the Door of the Infinite Lord.
kyiqAw gxq nhI vIcwru ] (5-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
kayti-aa ganat nahee veechaar.
So many contemplate and dwell upon Him, that they cannot be counted.
kyqy Kip qutih vykwr ] (5-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
kaytay khap tutahi vaykaar.
So many waste away to death engaged in corruption.
kyqy lY lY mukru pwih ] (5-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
kaytay lai lai mukar paahi.
So many take and take again, and then deny receiving.
kyqy mUrK KwhI Kwih ] (5-13, jpu, mÚ 1)
kaytay moorakh khaahee khaahi.
So many foolish consumers keep on consuming.
kyiqAw dUK BUK sd mwr ] (5-13, jpu, mÚ 1)
kayti-aa dookh bhookh sad maar.
So many endure distress, deprivation and constant abuse.
eyih iB dwiq qyrI dwqwr ] (5-13, jpu, mÚ 1)
ayhi bhe daat tayree daataar.
Even these are Your Gifts, O Great Giver!
bMid KlwsI BwxY hoie ] (5-13, jpu, mÚ 1)
band khalaasee bhaanai ho-ay.
Liberation from bondage comes only by Your Will.
horu AwiK n skY koie ] (5-14, jpu, mÚ 1)
hor aakh na sakai ko-ay.
No one else has any say in this.
jy ko Kwieku AwKix pwie ] (5-14, jpu, mÚ 1)
jay ko khaa-ik aakhan paa-ay.
If some fool should presume to say that he does,
Ehu jwxY jyqIAw muih Kwie ] (5-14, jpu, mÚ 1)
oh jaanai jaytee-aa muhi khaa-ay.
he shall learn, and feel the effects of his folly.
Awpy jwxY Awpy dyie ] (5-14, jpu, mÚ 1)
aapay jaanai aapay day-ay.
He Himself knows, He Himself gives.
AwKih is iB kyeI kyie ] (5-15, jpu, mÚ 1)
aakhahi se bhe kay-ee kay-ay.
Few, very few are those who acknowledge this.
ijs no bKsy isPiq swlwh ] (5-15, jpu, mÚ 1)
jis no bakhsay sifat saalaah.
One who is blessed to sing the Praises of the Lord,
nwnk pwiqswhI pwiqswhu ]25] (5-15, jpu, mÚ 1)
naanak paatisaahee paatisaahu. ||25||
O Nanak, is the king of kings. ||25||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

Aad Ji..BAJJAR KUREHIT is  a major infarction....
one of FOUR...
1. Dishonouring the KESH
2. Consumption of TOBACCO and other dugs/intoxicants
3. Consumption of Halal Meat
4.SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE

ANY one or combination..makes one an APOSTATE..requiring appearance before the PANJ, confession, and the Panj will then dish out a Penance..like so many Japji sahib paaths/community service/ etc...and then READMINISTER Khandey dee Pahul once more to readmit the apostate. He she will not be publicly humiliated/made known.

Someties a High Profile Political person is meted out "penance" by the PANJ... to Instill Humility..by making him wear a sign around his neck and sitting in the shoes of the sangat outside the Gurdwara/or wash utensils/sweep the floors etc. Buta Singh Indian Minister was doen such because he defied the Panth and made efforts to re-erct the Demolished Akal takhat at Indira behest  post 1984. THIS is IF the person appears before the PANJ..if he IGNORES THEM..then nothing happens..as with the Five Singhs in canada over the Langgar Edict, and Kala Afghana over his books.. One famous person to be floogged in public under this system was maharaja ranjit singh over keeping a prostitute in his palace.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

With  a person like Leone..no body can do anything..as she has not broken any civil laws..unless we go the way of the Ayohtollah Khomeni and Salamn Rashid and issue a Fatwa of Death. Hopefully she will coem to her senses...all by herself...:8-:8-


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## spnadmin (Jun 29, 2009)

Gyani ji

You are a fund of information. :happy:


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

She sure does bajjar kurehit of having sex outside of marriage. She also most likely does other bajjar kurehits too such as drugs, dishonoring hair and prob. eats halal at times too. She basically does all four bajjar kurehits if that is true. A person who does even 1 bajjar kurehit can't be a Sikh. She prob. does all 4. She has chosen her way and that is her own issue. I wouldn't want her to become a Sikh either but that is my person opinion. He becoming Sikh would be like Nau sau choohaa khaa kay billi huj noo chalee. Gyani Ji will translate if you need translation of this.


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## spnadmin (Jun 29, 2009)

Thanks - I get the message.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

That is safe then.


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## spnadmin (Jun 29, 2009)

Back to my earlier question. I see it now ....

BAJJAR  +  KU   +    REHIT

Sometimes I am kind of dumb.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

You got the meaning right. That is good. It is nothing to do with dumb. Sometimes we just ignore some things. On wikipedia, her name states that it is originally karen malhotra. Malhotras aren't Sikh usually.

it says on wikiepedia:


> Leone does her best to maintain a link to Sikh traditions, even if more in theory than in practice. But she’s unlikely to disavow her career path due to religion. "Girls will leave the industry claiming that they found God," she says. "Well, the fact is, God has always been with them the entire time.


 
God sure isn't with her unless her God is Kaal. Gurbani says the following about dharam and kaal.

*iqQY kwlu n sMcrY joqI joiq smwie ] 6] **{gurU gRMQ swihb jI, pMnw 55}*
*Thithai Kaal Na Sunchrai Joatee Joat Smaaye|| 6||*
*Kaal (spiritual death) doesn’t reach there; the light merges with The Light (God). 6.*



*hir ky nwm ibnw duKu pwvY ] Bgiq ibnw shsw nh cUkY guru iehu Bydu bqwvY ] 1] {gurU gRMQ swihb jI, pMnw 830}
Har Kay Naam Binaa Dukh Paavai || Bhagat Binaa Sahsaa Nah Chookai Gur Eh Bhayd Btaavai || 1||
Without the name of God, a person receives pain. Doubt is not removed without serving God; this secret has been revealed to me by God. 1.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

Nau sau chooha kha ke billi hajj nu challee..he he
You got it right Khalsa Fauj Jio...
After consuming 900 live rats..the "{censored} cat" decided to go to the Hajj (spiritual cleansing )..
she can go to hajj..but can the Hajj come to her ?? Will the hajj come to her ??

SIKHI is NOT such an "easy" way..that almost anybody can follow it..its as Sharp as the blade of the double dged Khanda and finer than a hair...cnat get any more difficult than that...anyone can claim to follow..be a sikh...BUT "BEING" A SIKH..thats where the lightning strikes..BOOM KABOOM.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

Gyani Ji! You are exactly right. People think they will do all types of kurehits and then become Amritdhari when they get to 50 years in age. It doesn't really work out in the end. These people take Amrit when they are 50 but maaya still haunts them. Gurmat path is a practice just like sports. A person has to start playing a sport from a very young age to make it to the big leagues. Otherwise, the chances of making to the big leagues just goes down and down. A 50 year old person can't become a star at the game of baseball. Same way, it is very hard to change when the person reaches 40s or 50s. It is best to get on Gurmat path as fast as possible or it be like nau sau choohaa khaa kay billi hujj nu chalee.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

IN Fact in SGGS Kabir Ji has already pointed this out as clearly as can be...IF YOU Cannot Live NAAM while Young and Strong..what makes you think you can do it when your eyes water, tongue shakes, feet tremble and your brains are addled ??
PRACTISE makes perfect..and Practise of NAAM LIVING has to begin as young as possible...


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

Gyani Ji, you are 100% right.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jun 30, 2009)

The perils of a misspent youth are brought to light when the delusion of hedonism becomes a stark and bitter poison. Reputation, reputation, reputation, it is sometimes a dilemma for the Sangat as to how to treat fallen angels wishing to return to the panth and fold. Some fall by choice and wilfulness whilst others are felled by malicious peers and adversaries, if fortunate fall on their swords if ill fated enough to be taken by the enemy camp can but detach from all such associations threatened by defamation is associated with such a one. The Waheguru is Pure Wisdom incorporating virtue and honour. God confers Honour upon whom he so wills.

Sikhism has many convert, former good time girls who take Amrit, don the mantle and lead pious lives. As Sikhism accords them the dignity of religiosity and the sanctum of the temple of faith, thus it is a moral duty if not obligation for the ‘’Sikh’’ to ensure their actions, words and misdeeds do not reflect badly upon their creed. Whilst it is commendable she exhibits her pride is her Sikh roots, this fragile relationship between, The Lord, Sangat and the individual requires equanimity. 

For former fallen individuals to take the name of their faith they must take Amrit and become orthodox or distance themselves from public declarations of such association. If by association the individual gains credence and status by affiliation then they are honour bound to ensure the Sikh faith also gain from their allegiance or association. Only in this manner is the relationship of the individual, the faith and The Lord can be sanctified.

The Orthodox carry the great name and honour of this faith in their daily lives, it is an aberration upon the devoted to be forced to defend questionable behaviour and actions of those unwilling or unable to conform and adhere to the aforementioned terms of faith and fidelity designed to protect the individual on the path, the Sangat and The good name and standing of the faith.

{Bach Buuri Halaton se, Patta Patta Singhann da Vairi} 

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. ...


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## kilemba (Jun 30, 2009)

To each his own, If she believes in the Guru Granth Sahib , who are we to judge her if she is Sikh.


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## dalsingh (Jun 30, 2009)

I am wondering if she is genuine at all in her wish to return to fold. Or if this is true at all? She would have trouble marrying into a Sikh family given her background - rightly or wrongly.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 30, 2009)

She is not going to return at all. Comments such as the one they posted on wikipedia are used to lure naive people into their industry. They are trying to portray that you can be a porn star and still be holy which is not true. Regarding believing in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not following a word:

*jqn krY mwnuK fhkwvY Ehu AMqrjwmI jwnY ] pwp kry kir mUkir pwvY ByK krY inrbwnY ] 1] **{gurU gRMQ swihb jI, pMnw 680}*
*Jattan Krai Manukh Dahkaavai Oh Antarjaamee Jaanai || Paap Kray Kar Mookar Paavai Bhaykh Krai Nirbaanai || 1||*
*Some try to deceive others but God, knower of hearts, knows everything. These people indulge in sinful acts but then refuse to accept them; these people envision being in Nirvaanaa. 1.*

*kbIr swcw siqguru ikAw krY jau isKw mih cUk ] AMDy eyk n lwgeI ijau bWsu bjweIAY PUk ] 158] {gurU gRMQ swihb jI, pMnw 1382}
Kabeer Saachaa Satgur Keaa Krai Jao Sikhaa Mahe Chook || Undhay Aik Na Laagee Jeo Baans Bjaaeeaai Fook || 158|| 
Kabeer, what can the True Guru do if the Sikhs are to blame? Blind don’t understand anything and it is useless to preach to them; it is similar to blowing into a bamboo. 158.
*


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## Randip Singh (Jun 30, 2009)

kilemba said:


> To each his own, If she believes in the Guru Granth Sahib , who are we to judge her if she is Sikh.



I think that's the point, we are not in a position to judge, but she shouldn't really judge the faith either. See the statement she made about other women finding God and leaving the industry.

Also we seem to excommunicate people from Sikhism like Inder Singh Ghagga and others, yet people like this are not looked at. I find the whole dea of excommunication ridiculous.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 30, 2009)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> You got the meaning right. That is good. It is nothing to do with dumb. Sometimes we just ignore some things. On wikipedia, her name states that it is originally karen malhotra. Malhotras aren't Sikh usually.
> 
> it says on wikiepedia:
> 
> ...



On a side note does not Kaal just mean time? and Akaal is timeless?


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 30, 2009)

> I think that's the point, we are not in a position to judge, but she shouldn't really judge the faith either. See the statement she made about other women finding God and leaving the industry.
> 
> Also we seem to excommunicate people from Sikhism like Inder Singh Ghagga and others, yet people like this are not looked at. I find the whole dea of excommunication ridiculous.


 
Inder Singh Ghagga isn't excommunicated by anyone. When he reached Punjab, he later spoke at a stage hosted by Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti. It was even in newspaper during those days. Stage was a smagam held by Dal Khalsa and Vedanti was teh stage host. If he was excommnicated, why did Vedanti allow him to speak on stage he controlled?

Then later when sauda cult issue occcurred, Ghagga was at Damadama Sahib with everyone else and no Jatheder told him to leave Damdama Sahib. Why was he allowed to roam there?

Vedanti enver excommunicated him. This is just a lie made by anti-Ghagga people.

Kaal also means spiritual death because Gurbani says:

*jhw loBu qh kwlu hY jhw iKmw qh Awip ] 155]** {gurU gRMQ swihb jI, pMnw 1372}*
*Jahaa Lobh Tah Kaal Hai Jahaa Khimaa Tah Aap || 155||*
*Where there is greed, there is kaal (spiritual death). Where there is forgiveness, there is God. 155.*

We know very well that if we translate kaal as time here, quote won't really be making sense.


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## spnadmin (Jun 30, 2009)

Khalsa Fauj ji

Once again you have my attention. I myself was perhaps fooled that Mr. Ghagga was excommunicated. Is there any hard documentation regarding an "excommunication?" Thanks for any light you can shed.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 30, 2009)

There is no hukamnama stating that Inder Singh Ghagga is excommunicated from Panth. He was recently in Naagpur where he did parchar for several days.

Audio files from the program are linked below:

Singh Sabha International Canada - Audio Files


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## Admin (Jun 30, 2009)

There is a good discussion on Inder Singh Ghagga, http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...izations-launch-protest-against-ghagga-3.html


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## Sinister (Jun 30, 2009)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> She isn't a Sikh anyways. She does bajjar kurehits. She is automatically excommunicated. We don't need Sikhs like her. Has she made any movies based on charitropakhyan?


 
didn't jesus hang out with Mary Magadelene, who was a *****? (and wasn't she one of his most commited disciples) maybe we should try to make a concerted effort to reach out to people rather than just shove them aside? perhaps reach out to them?

ahh screw it! that's too much work!
it's much more fun and far easier to just villify people and excommunicate them. :happy:

ive noticed something, the right paths are usually the longest and toughest ones...bummer.


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## spnadmin (Jun 30, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> There is a good discussion on Inder Singh Ghagga, http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...izations-launch-protest-against-ghagga-3.html



Yes thanks for this reminder. Important resource for the collection.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 30, 2009)

Sinister said:


> didn't jesus hang out with Mary Magadelene, who was a *****? (and wasn't she one of his most commited disciples) maybe we should try to make a concerted effort to reach out to people rather than just shove them aside? perhaps reach out to them?
> 
> ahh screw it! that's too much work!
> it's much more fun and far easier to just villify people and excommunicate them. :happy:
> ...


 
I don't know what the ***** part is. She is a porn star. No need to reach out to her. Normal. regular people are who should be reached. Not stars with their manmat. She isn't even a Sikh so all we are asking is for her to stop claiming to be Sikh. I don't read bible so I don't know about bible stories and I don't believe in Jesus. Like said before, what she does is bajjar kurehit which automatically excommunicates someone.


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## GillAUS (Jun 30, 2009)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> She isn't a Sikh anyways. She does bajjar kurehits. She is automatically excommunicated. We don't need Sikhs like her. *Has she made any movies based on charitropakhyan?*



Just had to throw that one in there didn't we? :55:


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## Sinister (Jun 30, 2009)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> I don't know what the ***** part is. She is a porn star. No need to reach out to her. Normal. regular people are who should be reached. Not stars with their manmat. She isn't even a Sikh so all we are asking is for her to stop claiming to be Sikh. I don't read bible so I don't know about bible stories and I don't believe in Jesus. Like said before, what she does is bajjar kurehit which automatically excommunicates someone.


 
yes of co{censored}, how silly of me, i forgot we are here on god's green earth to reach out to android drones and not human beings who make mistakes. Do bad decisions make us bad people? do bad decisions make us completely incapable of doing any good?

umm is she in the wrong, or are the people who buy and watch her videos more in the wrong? and should they be ex-communicated as well? well there goes 99% of the strapping young lads who do watch those videos.

***** = i meant to write 'prostitute'

define 'normal' because im certain our definitions vary. the misfits need the most help...normal people usually don't and i bet according to you more than 99% of the sangat has commited a bajjar kurehit or whatever clever control name we throw out there at some time or another. i know i have. should they all be excommunicated or recieve a childish flogging?

well maybe one day you will read the bible or maybe a religious text (just for kicks) and know what it is i talk about...however unlikely this may seem (it's not a bajjar kurehit is it?). 

cheers


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 30, 2009)

I didn't say that people who do bajjar kurehits can't fix up. Anyone can fix up but porn star is an unlikely source to fix up. Becoming a porn star is a really big step to take in life. A normal person is someone like me or you or other people who work hard to earn their money. I will read bible when I get free time. Like I said before, I don't want to get into bible. Since you read bible, did Mary remain a sex worker even after becoming a disciple of Jesus or she fixed up? If she fixed up, then you can't say that a sex worker was a great follower of Jesus. Like I said before, I didn't say people can't fix up. All I said was that some are tougher to fix than others. It is best to focus on those who will listen easily than others. If we can get 10 people on the right path compared to 1, it is best. As for watching her videos, I would ban porn business if I had power but I don't have any say in what governments allow and what they don't.


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## susan (Jul 1, 2009)

"if you don't see god in all,you don"t see god at all"
( harbhajan singh khalsa yogi ji)


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 1, 2009)

Any focus upon the improper, unchaste or immoral is itself an act of diversion from focus on the spiritual path to Sahej and Mukhti. The Eastern Cultures, especially Punjab are governed by The SSGS, Gurmat, The Bani, Politics task is to maintain the corporeal entity of Punjab, the administration of management. The west is governed by dual law, religious in direct conflict with political. The west offers ‘’choice’’ in the misleading cause of free will to sustain its power than bring any defined order. This causes not only disparity but a people at odds and battling with submission to two contrary wills themselves unreconciled, confusion and chaos. Rule of scripture raises innately moral and contented civilisations where modern prevailing issues, the outcome of impious living and a lack of sustainable law and ethics creates confusion and struggle as evil is given parity with morality, causing such issues such as whether former satans muses and playthings should be accepted into the Sangat. The Sangat is an Entity, if relies upon each individual to uphold its sanctity and honour. Those failed and falling short are required to be reborn, and live piously and in silence in the Sangat, resisting bringing attention upon their pats misdeeds or refrains from entering at all. The ensuing can of worms where all such pet poodles from satans stronghold demanding religious mantle and the credence it bestows creates the hell that is a modern western and Indian quagmire. feminism disempowered western man who to compensate for his lack of omnipotence in home and nation, his remiss of authority over women vents his frustrations upon the defenceless and good. Sikhism affords respect according to righteous deed and strength in the face of trails in such times. Recognition of the two opposing powers at war and the consequence of battling within each man, society and nation removed from the truth and the moral path of peace. This is Kalyug, Holy War. Antim to, all submit to the power of wisdom leaving behind Kaals illusory den of iniquity, preference is always accorded subtly to those foundation and stronghold of Sikhism, those raised an imbued or thoroughly dedicated to the Faith only. Punjabis working to free The Punjab from Political interference toward establishing Rule of Sikhism doctrine is a waged on a daily basis inspired further by the mayhem caused by the deconstruction of Morality and truth in favour of indulgence of individuation, a nonsensical cause in itself arising in the absence of societal cohesion, unity and faithfulness To The One. Eastern nations Omar, Brunei, Sweden etc illustrate perfectly how rule of Honour, Religious Values and Culture is in perfect harmony with prosperity and wealth without compromise to morality and personal liberty. Highly intelligent leaders create peaceful nations, whilst conflict between long term stability and adherence to one system of values in favour of pandering to the individual will causes only irrational exuberance masked as free will in a society that is anything but free. All modern media publicised issues such as feminism, abortion and homosexuality are all caused by governmental dysfunction and maladministration. As the religious fear dishonour and loss of standing and fall from grace thus the irreligious and unchaste greatly fear what they deemed as constricting religious tenets ‘inhibiting’’ their free will. When the collective will be bound to one word, a sound value system of principles and truth, it is made stronger as One. It then is the responsibility of each to uphold the name and honour of their faith and race, thus with the will to love they rally together assisting one another in times of personal dilemma and social upheaval. These simple truths are sometimes lost in the deluge of scandalisation and media hype focusing the mind and collective conscious away from the spiritual path for a truly free society, and upon perverse topics and issues generated by the lack of pastoral and religious indoctrination or societal values. All turn to Truth and Light when the wine of youth sours, and hedonism becomes a chore than a luxury. This Truth Is Confounded But Stands The Test Of Time. Sikhism and seekers of truth should not be distracted or have their minds dwell upon such incongruous and debased matters. The Mind, Body and Spirit is The Temple. It is constantly dusted, cleaned and rid of any surplus baggage and junk, sustaining its purity and sanctity on a daily basis as the wife cleans her hearth and home. Religion too as The Temple and Sanctum of Truth, Love and Peace in This age especially, requires constant vigilant guard and discarding of any intrusions into its stronghold of factors liable to divert the pure minds, polluting the consciousness with matter created by a degenerate and dysfunctional mob rule. Strong faith neutralises and cleanses all such perverse or defiled matter, when weakened causes undue harm, and instability, confusion and dissention rank and file as others feel a life of piety not as the luxury and blessing of good breeding, but a heavy weight upon them when the illusion of the irreligious free is portrayed by its marketers as anything but profitable moral corruption. The war between Waheguru and Kaal is conquered and allayed when such factors at play in all echelons of the societal stratosphere are fully understood as actions generated from these two catalysts. An easy and effortless task for the spiritually strong and upstanding, imbued by the spirit of their faith. A fortress indeed when besieged by such unscrupulous devices of shaitaan. The War between Kaal and DharamRaj – It is the role of media to publicise their subordinates not religion. If the individual concerned shows merit, complete submission and banishing of former ego and self, then it is wise to forgive. If the issue becomes scandal and brings division and confusion to the religion then if the girl is truly Sikh she will stand back, and if just another publicity stunt to denigrate Sikhism for Trojan horses devoid of any intention to give up their famed identity. There are many who in later life find a calling to take the name, one does so discreetly without rousing propaganda and unwarrnated controversy.. A moral dilemma of a localised nature – aggrandised – diverting attention away from the spiritual path onto matters unsavoury and unchaste. They who relinquish their soul to The Great Lord find great peace whilst wilful antagonists will be meted upon in kind for bringing defamation upon the honourable sanctum of Sikhism. The Waheguru is Virtue, Morality, Love, Honour and Peace. If The Spirit of The Waheguru dwelt in all how blissfully wondrous this world would be. Alas it is untrue. Kal too dwells here, empowering his army of hecklers and demanders, creating confusion, sowing seeds of discontent, casting women against men, politics against Religion, West against East and Warfare Against Peace. In this Dark Age the Holy Spirit Of The Waheguru is depleted nay consumed by The virulent energy of mob rule. One cannot serve two masters. Your either bind yourself to the spirit of Waheguru or dwell under Kal Law. Whilst pious men stand upright as defenders of the faith, humanity and goodwill it remains sadly, the porn star and veritable Trojan horse also has her sympathisers. The media will have a field day if this discussion continues under this banner. An accusation is lodged against those considered blessed for their loving parentage. This is where law of karma sets in., what you sow is what you reap, this encourages adherence to what in testing times appears a narrow path, a route the wholesome find the only way to live in accordance with peace and goodwill. If all sinners are accepted nay ‘’lauded’ as returning prodigals not discreetly but with fanfare then what do parents of children in a diverse and tempestuous climate warn their children from the perils of erring towards celebrated debauchery and perversity, if redemption is gained. The elders allow such underlings to return but only if they do so discreetly respecting the sensibilities of parents raising their children in such conflicting and contradictory times. As for drinking, smoking, injecting, snorting, overdosing etc and other illusory crimes against the person is pursuit of nirvana and peace, maybe good men are defamed and scandalised, Sikhs, shorn and brutalised precisely for the explicit purpose and end to gain leverage for the admitting of Kaals Trojan horses into the sanctum of Religion. Banish the ego. Excommunication has two facets from within as expulsion and externally to distance good souls from The Lords given support and network of the Sangat and Gurdwara solely for exploitation and plundering purposes. Many ladies marry into Sikhi and submit to their spouse’s faith and will, and are honoured for doing so. The silent victims of the western Kal know of the suffering not entirely dissimilar to 1984 that goes on about us. The war between religion and state rages on as pawns and commentators are able to offer personal opinions or Universal Truth. To submit to Sikhism is to supplicate ones will, mind heart and soul to the Universal Truth no matter how personally compromising it may at times feel.

‘’The God in All’’ edict applies to the Saints, Prophets and Guru’s who by their powerful spiritual presence and wisdom appeased all who heard their word or gained their company. Alas history books will relate what happened to these strong, indiscriminately loving souls, does it not....? It is a Dream of The Almighty WaheGuru to establish his Absolute Rule Her On Earth. Unfortunately so far and to date since time began this plan has failed. 

...The inclusion of such ensures lowering of morale and focus of any deep progressively spiritual and effectual debates are soon reduced to attention seeking quippy remarks for the sake of remarking than any greater prupose or cause, however I concede the porn star has evoked responses from the heavyweights of this forum moreso than other more deserving and righteous questioners. I suspect its just the way the cookie crumbles as they say in the U.S. of A... Porn sells or soemthing like that...***


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 1, 2009)

this is a very lively debate.

i wonder if they debate this much in the SGPC/akal takt meetings when they decide to excommunicate someone


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## Randip Singh (Jul 1, 2009)

Sinister said:


> didn't jesus hang out with Mary Magadelene, who was a *****? (and wasn't she one of his most commited disciples) maybe we should try to make a concerted effort to reach out to people rather than just shove them aside? perhaps reach out to them?
> 
> ahh screw it! that's too much work!
> it's much more fun and far easier to just villify people and excommunicate them. :happy:
> ...



I think we are missing what I was saying at the start:

1) This business of Excommunication. SGPC excommunication people like Kala Afghana, then why not people like her? The point is SGPC has some double standards and I think this excommunication business is a nonsense. The thread was primarily about excommunication.

2) Unlike Mary Magdalene she doesn't seem to want to repent and seems to slate those who have found god. That's a abit bad

3) On a personal level (if it were man or woman), I just find it a bit off someone calling themselves Sikh and encouriging Kaam in this manner. Sex is one thing but this sort of thing usually encourages Obsessive Sexual behaviour and places lust infront of love.

Just my views


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## Lee (Jul 1, 2009)

I have no idea who this woman is, but if she belives in one God, and the human Sikh Guru's, if she belives that simran and seva are important, even if she is consummed by ego and has no chance what's so ever of being Gurmukh, then she is still s Sikh is she not?

Why should ones job deny you a belife in God?


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## dalsingh (Jul 1, 2009)

One thing you have to ask is whether the last 10 Gurus would have tolerated such behaviour in their sangat.

I think not myself but obviously cannot speak for the Gurus. 

I know lapses were treated with kindness but is this sort of repetitive behaviour another matter?


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jul 1, 2009)

Dal Singh, you are 100% right. Guru Ji would have never acceptedd such behaviour. Point is there is nothing to excommunicate her for. She isn't even a Sikh. Only Sikhs can be excommunicated. She isn't a follower of Sikh religion. Akaal Takht can only issue statement saying she isn't a Sikh and is just posing to fool others. She could be taken to court for defaming the Sikh faith.


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## dalsingh (Jul 1, 2009)

Lee said:


> I have no idea who this woman is, but if she belives in one God, and the human Sikh Guru's, if she belives that simran and seva are important, even if she is consummed by ego and has no chance what's so ever of being Gurmukh, then she is still s Sikh is she not?
> 
> Why should ones job deny you a belife in God?


 
Lee she is a porn star. There is no way she would be accepted in Sikh society doing what she is doing. I'm shocked that you describe it as a job like you do! lol 

No one is saying she can't believe in God but calling herself Sikh and doing what she is doing - doesn't mix.


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## Lee (Jul 2, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> Lee she is a porn star. There is no way she would be accepted in Sikh society doing what she is doing. I'm shocked that you describe it as a job like you do! lol
> 
> No one is saying she can't believe in God but calling herself Sikh and doing what she is doing - doesn't mix.


 

I don't see how that works?

Acording to rehat a Sikh is somebody who belives in God and the ten Sikh Guru's, and Guru Granth Sahib, the taking of Amrit for baptism and who does not oew allegiance to any other religion.

If this is applicable to this woman then she is a Sikh, and no amount of dislike for her career choice can gainsay that.

If turbaned man, beats his wife and cheats on her and drinks beer and smokes, yet belives in the Waheguru, the ten Sikh Guru's, Guru Granth Sahib, baptism via Amrit and owes allegiance to no other religoin, he is still a Sikh is he not?  A bad Sikh granted but still Sikh.

And yes I call it her job as this is clearly what it is , she gets paid for doing it.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 2, 2009)

Lee said:


> I don't see how that works?
> 
> Acording to rehat a Sikh is somebody who belives in God and the ten Sikh Guru's, and Guru Granth Sahib, the taking of Amrit for baptism and who does not oew allegiance to any other religion.
> 
> ...


 
I think we are all missing the point. It is we as people that create barriers with God.

In Sikhism, baptised or not it is clear the 5 thieves hindeer your path to God.

One of the thieves is Kaam and Hankaar. Pornography and its promotion promote Kaam and Hankaar. Self will or the path to the Manmukh.


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## Lee (Jul 2, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I think we are all missing the point. It is we as people that create barriers with God.
> 
> In Sikhism, baptised or not it is clear the 5 thieves hindeer your path to God.
> 
> One of the thieves is Kaam and Hankaar. Pornography and its promotion promote Kaam and Hankaar. Self will or the path to the Manmukh.


 

No my friend I think the point that has been missed is the one that I am making.

I'll not deny what you say, but do you also say then that anybody who engages in any of the 5 thieves is not Sikh?

I would say they are fully human, and if trying to find God the Sikhi way, then that person is Sikh. A good Sikh or a bad Sikh is still a Sikh.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 2, 2009)

Lee said:


> I'll not deny what you say, but do you also say then that anybody who engages in any of the 5 thieves is not Sikh?
> 
> I would say they are fully human, and if trying to find God the Sikhi way, then that person is Sikh. A good Sikh or a bad Sikh is still a Sikh.



Yes they are indeed human with all the human fallibilities.

The Sikh message is clear God is within all of us, it is just that most of us do not "tune in" to him.

Why because we "tune in" to the station of Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

This leads to Munmukhi and in effects leads us away from God.

If we "tune in" to Sat, Santokh, Nimrata, Pyar and Daya. This makes us Gurmukh or God willed.

The "5 Weapons" are what are used to combat the 5 thieves. It demonstrates that we are willing to learn (Sikh).

What this young lady is saying is God is with me and I can indulge in the 5 thieves. I don't think she realises she shuts herself of from God like this. She is kidding herself.

It is not for us to judge her, but she cannot change the parameters of Sikhism to suit herself (which is what she is in effect saying).


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## dalsingh (Jul 2, 2009)

I'm trying hard not to be judgemental but even for kaam (something that we are all subject to), this is extreme!

You could almost partially understand when someone from a poverty stricken, abused background get drawn into such things but from what info is available she comes from a relatively stable background. The other issue is the impression she could make on other young, naive Sikh girls. We are all sinners to an extent but to openly promote your shortcomings as if it is acceptable is another matter.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 3, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> Any focus upon the improper, unchaste or immoral is itself an act of diversion from focus on the spiritual path to Sahej and Mukhti. The Eastern Cultures, especially Punjab are governed by The SSGS, Gurmat, The Bani, Politics task is to maintain the corporeal entity of Punjab, the administration of management. The west is governed by dual law, religious in direct conflict with political. The west offers ‘’choice’’ in the misleading cause of free will to sustain its power than bring any defined order. This causes not only disparity but a people at odds and battling with submission to two contrary wills themselves unreconciled, confusion and chaos. Rule of scripture raises innately moral and contented civilisations where modern prevailing issues, the outcome of impious living and a lack of sustainable law and ethics creates confusion and struggle as evil is given parity with morality, causing such issues such as whether former satans muses and playthings should be accepted into the Sangat. The Sangat is an Entity, if relies upon each individual to uphold its sanctity and honour. Those failed and falling short are required to be reborn, and live piously and in silence in the Sangat, resisting bringing attention upon their pats misdeeds or refrains from entering at all. The ensuing can of worms where all such pet poodles from satans stronghold demanding religious mantle and the credence it bestows creates the hell that is a modern western and Indian quagmire. feminism disempowered western man who to compensate for his lack of omnipotence in home and nation, his remiss of authority over women vents his frustrations upon the defenceless and good. Sikhism affords respect according to righteous deed and strength in the face of trails in such times. Recognition of the two opposing powers at war and the consequence of battling within each man, society and nation removed from the truth and the moral path of peace. This is Kalyug, Holy War. Antim to, all submit to the power of wisdom leaving behind Kaals illusory den of iniquity, preference is always accorded subtly to those foundation and stronghold of Sikhism, those raised an imbued or thoroughly dedicated to the Faith only. Punjabis working to free The Punjab from Political interference toward establishing Rule of Sikhism doctrine is a waged on a daily basis inspired further by the mayhem caused by the deconstruction of Morality and truth in favour of indulgence of individuation, a nonsensical cause in itself arising in the absence of societal cohesion, unity and faithfulness To The One. Eastern nations Omar, Brunei, Sweden etc illustrate perfectly how rule of Honour, Religious Values and Culture is in perfect harmony with prosperity and wealth without compromise to morality and personal liberty. Highly intelligent leaders create peaceful nations, whilst conflict between long term stability and adherence to one system of values in favour of pandering to the individual will causes only irrational exuberance masked as free will in a society that is anything but free. All modern media publicised issues such as feminism, abortion and homosexuality are all caused by governmental dysfunction and maladministration. As the religious fear dishonour and loss of standing and fall from grace thus the irreligious and unchaste greatly fear what they deemed as constricting religious tenets ‘inhibiting’’ their free will. When the collective will be bound to one word, a sound value system of principles and truth, it is made stronger as One. It then is the responsibility of each to uphold the name and honour of their faith and race, thus with the will to love they rally together assisting one another in times of personal dilemma and social upheaval. These simple truths are sometimes lost in the deluge of scandalisation and media hype focusing the mind and collective conscious away from the spiritual path for a truly free society, and upon perverse topics and issues generated by the lack of pastoral and religious indoctrination or societal values. All turn to Truth and Light when the wine of youth sours, and hedonism becomes a chore than a luxury. This Truth Is Confounded But Stands The Test Of Time. Sikhism and seekers of truth should not be distracted or have their minds dwell upon such incongruous and debased matters. The Mind, Body and Spirit is The Temple. It is constantly dusted, cleaned and rid of any surplus baggage and junk, sustaining its purity and sanctity on a daily basis as the wife cleans her hearth and home. Religion too as The Temple and Sanctum of Truth, Love and Peace in This age especially, requires constant vigilant guard and discarding of any intrusions into its stronghold of factors liable to divert the pure minds, polluting the consciousness with matter created by a degenerate and dysfunctional mob rule. Strong faith neutralises and cleanses all such perverse or defiled matter, when weakened causes undue harm, and instability, confusion and dissention rank and file as others feel a life of piety not as the luxury and blessing of good breeding, but a heavy weight upon them when the illusion of the irreligious free is portrayed by its marketers as anything but profitable moral corruption. The war between Waheguru and Kaal is conquered and allayed when such factors at play in all echelons of the societal stratosphere are fully understood as actions generated from these two catalysts. An easy and effortless task for the spiritually strong and upstanding, imbued by the spirit of their faith. A fortress indeed when besieged by such unscrupulous devices of shaitaan. The War between Kaal and DharamRaj – It is the role of media to publicise their subordinates not religion. If the individual concerned shows merit, complete submission and banishing of former ego and self, then it is wise to forgive. If the issue becomes scandal and brings division and confusion to the religion then if the girl is truly Sikh she will stand back, and if just another publicity stunt to denigrate Sikhism for Trojan horses devoid of any intention to give up their famed identity. There are many who in later life find a calling to take the name, one does so discreetly without rousing propaganda and unwarrnated controversy.. A moral dilemma of a localised nature – aggrandised – diverting attention away from the spiritual path onto matters unsavoury and unchaste. They who relinquish their soul to The Great Lord find great peace whilst wilful antagonists will be meted upon in kind for bringing defamation upon the honourable sanctum of Sikhism. The Waheguru is Virtue, Morality, Love, Honour and Peace. If The Spirit of The Waheguru dwelt in all how blissfully wondrous this world would be. Alas it is untrue. Kal too dwells here, empowering his army of hecklers and demanders, creating confusion, sowing seeds of discontent, casting women against men, politics against Religion, West against East and Warfare Against Peace. In this Dark Age the Holy Spirit Of The Waheguru is depleted nay consumed by The virulent energy of mob rule. One cannot serve two masters. Your either bind yourself to the spirit of Waheguru or dwell under Kal Law. Whilst pious men stand upright as defenders of the faith, humanity and goodwill it remains sadly, the porn star and veritable Trojan horse also has her sympathisers. The media will have a field day if this discussion continues under this banner. An accusation is lodged against those considered blessed for their loving parentage. This is where law of karma sets in., what you sow is what you reap, this encourages adherence to what in testing times appears a narrow path, a route the wholesome find the only way to live in accordance with peace and goodwill. If all sinners are accepted nay ‘’lauded’ as returning prodigals not discreetly but with fanfare then what do parents of children in a diverse and tempestuous climate warn their children from the perils of erring towards celebrated debauchery and perversity, if redemption is gained. The elders allow such underlings to return but only if they do so discreetly respecting the sensibilities of parents raising their children in such conflicting and contradictory times. As for drinking, smoking, injecting, snorting, overdosing etc and other illusory crimes against the person is pursuit of nirvana and peace, maybe good men are defamed and scandalised, Sikhs, shorn and brutalised precisely for the explicit purpose and end to gain leverage for the admitting of Kaals Trojan horses into the sanctum of Religion. Banish the ego. Excommunication has two facets from within as expulsion and externally to distance good souls from The Lords given support and network of the Sangat and Gurdwara solely for exploitation and plundering purposes. Many ladies marry into Sikhi and submit to their spouse’s faith and will, and are honoured for doing so. The silent victims of the western Kal know of the suffering not entirely dissimilar to 1984 that goes on about us. The war between religion and state rages on as pawns and commentators are able to offer personal opinions or Universal Truth. To submit to Sikhism is to supplicate ones will, mind heart and soul to the Universal Truth no matter how personally compromising it may at times feel.
> 
> ‘’The God in All’’ edict applies to the Saints, Prophets and Guru’s who by their powerful spiritual presence and wisdom appeased all who heard their word or gained their company. Alas history books will relate what happened to these strong, indiscriminately loving souls, does it not....? It is a Dream of The Almighty WaheGuru to establish his Absolute Rule Her On Earth. Unfortunately so far and to date since time began this plan has failed.
> 
> ...The inclusion of such ensures lowering of morale and focus of any deep progressively spiritual and effectual debates are soon reduced to attention seeking quippy remarks for the sake of remarking than any greater prupose or cause, however I concede the porn star has evoked responses from the heavyweights of this forum moreso than other more deserving and righteous questioners. I suspect its just the way the cookie crumbles as they say in the U.S. of A... Porn sells or soemthing like that...***


 
Addendum - With reference to porn actresses, all acting is a varying degree of porn and immorality and moral degeneration. Sikhism is a noble belief of upstanding and honourable Lordship. We may fall short of our full potential in accomplishing the spiritual state of sahej and personal perfection but we do not devalue or disassemble the sound tenets and structure and objective because we fail on any given day to attain their high and exacting pinnacle in spiritual purity, we forget not the spiritual purpose of Sikhism. There are new age American ‘’religions’’ that would undoubtedly be better suited for this kind Loathe am I to cite these highly lucrative new age religions, at this time of the credit crunch seeking high calibre converts to bolster their coffers. One must shed ones ego and submit to The Supreme Spirit of The Almighty Lord, not perversely seek to malign and contort to one’s own end, intentions and wilfulness. Some confuse religion with politics at times, the power of mob rule politely referred to as people power and aptly named democracy of demagogues.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

randip singh said:


> On a side note does not Kaal just mean time? and Akaal is timeless?



IMHO..KAAL is DEATH..LIMIT..END...FINIS !! anything that has a beginning and an end..is kaal. anything that is BORN..has to DIE..no escape...from DEATH. This is in DG..and also called Mahakaal...

AKAAL as in SGGS..is not Born..so no Death..has no beginning..so no END...never started..so no Finish....


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 3, 2009)

Gyani ji

 Kaal also means Time in sanskrit ( the root origin)


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jul 3, 2009)

God has been here even before time. So we don't follow time but timeless.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 3, 2009)

:shock:


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2009)

Khalsa ji made a good point. I missed it the first time around. Good stuff.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 8, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> The perils of a misspent youth are brought to light when the delusion of hedonism becomes a stark and bitter poison. Reputation, reputation, reputation, it is sometimes a dilemma for the Sangat as to how to treat fallen angels wishing to return to the panth and fold. Some fall by choice and wilfulness whilst others are felled by malicious peers and adversaries, if fortunate fall on their swords if ill fated enough to be taken by the enemy camp can but detach from all such associations threatened by defamation is associated with such a one. The Waheguru is Pure Wisdom incorporating virtue and honour. God confers Honour upon whom he so wills.
> 
> Sikhism has many convert, former good time girls who take Amrit, don the mantle and lead pious lives. As Sikhism accords them the dignity of religiosity and the sanctum of the temple of faith, thus it is a moral duty if not obligation for the ‘’Sikh’’ to ensure their actions, words and misdeeds do not reflect badly upon their creed. Whilst it is commendable she exhibits her pride is her Sikh roots, this fragile relationship between, The Lord, Sangat and the individual requires equanimity.
> 
> ...


 
All actresses in the entertainment entertainment industry are varying degrees of porn and an abomination upon the sanctity of womankind. 

Wisdom IS WaheGuru Is Truth Is Love Is Lord Supreme.

God Is An Undefined Unquantified Term. One Who Rules. This Is Kalyug. Kal Rules. Hence an absence of God.


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## Lee (Jul 8, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> All actresses in the entertainment entertainment industry are varying degrees of porn and an abomination upon the sanctity of womankind.
> 
> Wisdom IS WaheGuru Is Truth Is Love Is Lord Supreme.
> 
> God Is An Undefined Unquantified Term. One Who Rules. This Is Kalyug. Kal Rules. Hence an absence of God.


 

An abssence of God? Where, how is that even possible?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2009)

AAD SACH, Jugaad SACH, Nanak hosee bhee SACH. God is never ever absent...it just cant happen.


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## Josh martin (Jul 8, 2009)

PUnjabi star in pent house? cool
Shouldn't we be cheering up for her? she made it


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 9, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> PUnjabi star in pent house? cool
> Shouldn't we be cheering up for her? she made it



made it ?? where ?


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## Randip Singh (Jul 9, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> PUnjabi star in pent house? cool
> Shouldn't we be cheering up for her? she made it



I don't think encouragement of Kaam or luring over women and seeing them as objects of sexual desire is anything to cheers about.

I would say she didn't make it, but destroyed it!


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## Josh martin (Jul 9, 2009)

Made it to her goal? Hollywood/penthouse success rates are in low%. Maybe that was her dream.

Randip ji,

Maybe ur right


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## CaramelChocolate (Feb 28, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Aad Ji..BAJJAR KUREHIT is a major infarction....
> one of FOUR...
> 1. Dishonouring the KESH
> 2. Consumption of TOBACCO and other dugs/intoxicants
> ...


 
If the following were good enough for the Gurus to contribute to the Guru Granth Sahib, then why do Sikhs take such a strong stance against hair cutters? :

Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas, Sheikh Farid, Trilochan, Dhanna, Beni, Sheikh Bhikan, Jaidev, Surdas, Parmanand, Pipa, Ramanand

Sadhna: 1 hymn *A butcher by profession*, Bhagat Sadhana was born in Sind. His piety and meditation of God elevated him to saintly status. He was condemned by Brahmins and on a false charge was arrested and buried alive. 
Sain: 1 hymn Bhagat Sain *was a barber* of the royal court of Raja Ram, king of Rewa. He was a follower of Bhagat Ramanand and Bhagat Kabir.

The Bhatts 
Kal, Kalsahar, Tal, Jalap, Jal, Kirat, Sal, Bhal, Nal, Bhikha, Jalan, Das, Gayand, Sewak, Mathura, Bal, Harbans



Personally I would agree with a more basic definition of a Sikh - one who strives for God. I agree that in the greater scheme of things prostitution is WRONG and if one is searching for God, one would abandon this, in the same way that cutting the hair is about physical appearance and changing onself from the way we are made... but for goodness sake... who is to say what is in a person's heart? Why is their SUCH A BIG emphasis on APPEARANCE? 

One can appear like the holiest person in the world, and still have a DIRTY HEART!

ਬੰਕੇ ਬਾਲ ਪਾਗ ਸਿਰਿ ਡੇਰੀ ॥ 
You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head. 
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਭਸਮ ਕੀ ਢੇਰੀ ॥੩॥ 
But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3|| - 659


ਮਨ ਰੇ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
O mind, dwell in the balanced state of your own inner being. 
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਲਾਹਿ ਤੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Praise the Lord's Name, and you shall no longer come and go in reincarnation. ||1||Pause|| - 1477


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## spnadmin (Feb 28, 2011)

CaramelChocolate ji

Please post the entire shabad and not one or two tuks so that full meaning of the tuk can be appraised. This is a forum rule, and has been for several years. Thank you, spnadmin.


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## Seeker9 (Mar 1, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> I think that's the point, we are not in a position to judge, but she shouldn't really judge the faith either. See the statement she made about other women finding God and leaving the industry.
> 
> Also we seem to excommunicate people from Sikhism like Inder Singh Ghagga and others, yet people like this are not looked at. I find the whole dea of excommunication ridiculous.



Well said

Who appointed anyone judge to excommunicate someone else?

But its ultimately pointless...what does it achieve?

Are we saying there are no sinners following Sikhism? Or is it the nature of the sin and the profile of the sinner that is stirring up so much interest?

Why on such a fine forum like this are we giving time to pornstars??


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## Shanger (Mar 7, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had an e-mail from a friend who edits on wikipedia, on an account I used to have. He has come up against this article:
> 
> ...



If she considers herself to be sikh and believes in the teachings (as in believes tht there is a god and the gurus were true etc) can she not call herself a sikh?

im just saying that because, imagine a guy who cuts his hair, not taken amrit, but still goes gurdwara etc. many ppl will call tht guy a sikh right? 

ur probably thinking leone cant be sikh cos she does porn which is breaking the rule about lust (1 of the 5 evils i think), but where do we draw the line? cos every human has imperfections and falls victim to them right? 

e.g. many sikh guys will have a bmw/mercedes, when they could get around with a much cheaper car, and donate the rest of the money to charity. breaking the greed thing. (maybe thts a bad example but im just saying we all somehow break one of the 5 evils so who draws the line)


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## spnadmin (Mar 7, 2011)

Shanger ji

You have quoted a very early comment by Randip Singh ji which in context was intended to get a conversation started in what is now a very stale thread. He was raising issues. Did you manage to notice one of his more recent comments.



> Originally Posted by Randip Singh
> I think that's the point, we are not in a position to judge, but she shouldn't really judge the faith either. See the statement she made about other women finding God and leaving the industry.
> 
> Also we seem to excommunicate people from Sikhism like Inder Singh Ghagga and others, yet people like this are not looked at. I find the whole dea of excommunication ridiculous.



Quite different.

I am also really grateful that forum members are "chilling" on your comments here and in other threads


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## Shanger (Mar 8, 2011)

I only read the 1st page to be honest, but if that is Randip's view then I agree.


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## Surjiwan Singh (Nov 21, 2012)

This woman is very lost and confused. I dont know much about her. All I know is that she works in the porn industry. To see a South Asian woman do such a thing disgusts me. Im a young teen living in California. And out here, it is our number one priority to protect our people. Especially our females. I feel like all I and many others have done to protect our community has been "thrown in the trash" when I see young, beautiful, punjabi kuriya degrade themselves in such ways. First of all, I would LOVE to know how her parent(s) feel about this. I honestly don't believe any caring, loving, parent would take pride in having a porn star son/daughter. Especially a South Asian parent. Second, I wonder if she even knows what a Sikh is. The fact that she is being advertised as a Sikh pornstar fills me with rage. You don't see people being advertised as "Christian Pornstar" or "Catholic Pornstar." No, but these *******s love to make a big deal out of a Hindu/Muslim/Sikh pornstar. That, in my opinion, is a slap in the face to our community. We should not tolerate such disrespect. Especially from these dirty *******s. And third, I just want to say that she is a discrace to our community and that she should be ashamed of herself. I wonder how her children (if she is to have any) would feel when they found out that "mommy was a pornstar." What would they go through? What if another kid at school knew about his "pornstar mommy?" Sikh children have gone through enough teasing and harrasment since 9/11. Believe me, i know. I was in kindergarden when 9/11 happened. The next 11 years of my life in America was a living hell. And another thing that angered me was when I read that the only reason she got into this industry was because she was persuaded by a man in California. These people NEED to stay away from our females. I have seen so much violence take place over protecting an Indian girl. I will admit, I have taken place in these violent acts. And, most of the time, led these acts. We would beat up any non South Asian who even thought about looking at our females the wrong way. This "punjabi pornstar" is only making it rougher for us youngsters in the Punjabi community. I truly dont believe that she is intact with her culture, heritage, and indian morals judging by her poor career decision. And Miss "Leone," if you ever read this, I would just like to say Thank You. Thank You for getting into the porn industry. Thank you for showing off your "goods" online for the whole world to see. Thank You for making youngsters like me feel like we have failed in trying to keep our beautiful females good and pure. (God, I hope you're getting the sarcasm). And if you are reading this... I just have ONE simple, plain question... "WHY?"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2012)

> This woman is very lost and confused. I dont know much about her.


If you do not know much about her, how can you say she is lost and confused? 



> All I know is that she works in the porn industry


so what?



> To see a South Asian woman do such a thing disgusts me. Im a young teen  living in California. And out here, it is our number one priority to  protect our people. Especially our females. I feel like all I and many  others have done to protect our community has been "thrown in the trash"  when I see young, beautiful, punjabi kuriya degrade themselves in such  ways


a bit like a sort of Sikh Taliban?



> First of all, I would LOVE to know how her parent(s) feel about this. I  honestly don't believe any caring, loving, parent would take pride in  having a porn star son/daughter.


No, of course not, they would prefer their daughters to be miserably married to someone they hardly knew in order to satisfy Izzat. Perhaps you would be happier if they were actively trying to kill her maybe?



> Second, I wonder if she even knows what a Sikh is. The fact that she is being advertised as a Sikh pornstar fills me with rage


Do you know what being a Sikh is? If you did then you would possibly be aware that rage is one of the many thieves that we are warned against. 



> We should not tolerate such disrespect


What should we do? maybe we should forget all the important issues in Sikhism, the compensation for 84, the leadership, the lack of direction, the corruption and focus on a young woman that is going about her legal business. 



> I just want to say that she is a discrace to our community and that she should be ashamed of herself


I can think of bigger disgraces myself



> I wonder how her children (if she is to have any) would feel when they  found out that "mommy was a pornstar." What would they go through? What  if another kid at school knew about his "pornstar mommy?


She seems happy enough, what business is it of yours?



> These people NEED to stay away from our females


You have ownership of all Sikh women?



> I have seen so much violence take place over protecting an Indian girl. I  will admit, I have taken place in these violent acts. And, most of the  time, led these acts  We would beat up any non South Asian who even thought about looking at our females the wrong way


Quite the righteous thug are you not my friend, how do you judge the look? Is this what being a Sikh is about? 



> I truly dont believe that she is intact with her culture, heritage, and  indian morals judging by her poor career decision. And Miss "Leone," if  you ever read this, I would just like to say Thank You. Thank You for  getting into the porn industry.


Anymore than you are my young angry friend?



> Thank You for making youngsters like me feel like we have failed in  trying to keep our beautiful females good and pure. (God, I hope you're  getting the sarcasm). And if you are reading this... I just have ONE  simple, plain question... "WHY?"


Has it ever occured to you that our beautiful females do not need a thug like you to protect them? They can protect themselves I am sure, maybe you should address your own anger issues before worrying about others.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 21, 2012)

Surjiwan Singh said:


> This woman is very lost and confused. I dont know much about her. All I know is that she works in the porn industry. To see a South Asian woman do such a thing disgusts me. Im a young teen living in California. And out here, it is our number one priority to protect our people. Especially our females. I feel like all I and many others have done to protect our community has been "thrown in the trash" when I see young, beautiful, punjabi kuriya degrade themselves in such ways. First of all, I would LOVE to know how her parent(s) feel about this. I honestly don't believe any caring, loving, parent would take pride in having a porn star son/daughter. Especially a South Asian parent. Second, I wonder if she even knows what a Sikh is. The fact that she is being advertised as a Sikh pornstar fills me with rage. You don't see people being advertised as "Christian Pornstar" or "Catholic Pornstar." No, but these *******s love to make a big deal out of a Hindu/Muslim/Sikh pornstar. That, in my opinion, is a slap in the face to our community. We should not tolerate such disrespect. Especially from these dirty *******s. And third, I just want to say that she is a discrace to our community and that she should be ashamed of herself. I wonder how her children (if she is to have any) would feel when they found out that "mommy was a pornstar." What would they go through? What if another kid at school knew about his "pornstar mommy?" Sikh children have gone through enough teasing and harrasment since 9/11. Believe me, i know. I was in kindergarden when 9/11 happened. The next 11 years of my life in America was a living hell. And another thing that angered me was when I read that the only reason she got into this industry was because she was persuaded by a man in California. These people NEED to stay away from our females. I have seen so much violence take place over protecting an Indian girl. I will admit, I have taken place in these violent acts. And, most of the time, led these acts. We would beat up any non South Asian who even thought about looking at our females the wrong way. This "punjabi pornstar" is only making it rougher for us youngsters in the Punjabi community. I truly dont believe that she is intact with her culture, heritage, and indian morals judging by her poor career decision. And Miss "Leone," if you ever read this, I would just like to say Thank You. Thank You for getting into the porn industry. Thank you for showing off your "goods" online for the whole world to see. Thank You for making youngsters like me feel like we have failed in trying to keep our beautiful females good and pure. (God, I hope you're getting the sarcasm). And if you are reading this... I just have ONE simple, plain question... "WHY?"



Agree totally.

This woman totally disgusts me.

A blot on Sikhism.


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## Luckysingh (Nov 21, 2012)

I don't know what the problem is.
We don't know her, we only know what industry she's in.
She's born to sikh parents, so does that make her a sikh?
It''s got nothing to do with religion, this is all about an industry that is no longer considered sleazy or taboo thanks to Mr Heffner.

My response is 'SO WHAT??'
If you find it sleazy then don't watch it. Porn is not forced down anybody's throat, it is there for you to access if you wish.
I couldn't care less who her family is and what pind they come from. 
What if it was a male pornstar with the same success. You would all say well done phaaji, good for you.

I would excommunicate her for shaving her hair on her cherry and not for her job!!!!



> These people NEED to stay away from our females. I have seen so much violence take place over protecting an Indian girl. I will admit, I have taken place in these violent acts. And, most of the time, led these acts. We would beat up any non South Asian who even thought about looking at our females the wrong way.


 
The above just sounds extreme islamic taliban to me.


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## kds1980 (Nov 21, 2012)

> I would excommunicate her for shaving her hair on her cherry and not for her job!!!!



Why?


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## Ishna (Nov 21, 2012)

You can get hair on your cherry now?

If she's a porn star chances are she don't have one of them no more.  lol

Better chain her up to the oven, quick, and beat up all the white guys who think 'your females' are attractive.


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## Ishna (Nov 21, 2012)

> ...stating that she would only do lesbian scenes.


 
Uhoh, better go beat up some white chicks too. (later in the artice it's said she changes to men)



> She indicated in an April 2012 interview that 80 per cent of the traffic on her website, and 60 per cent of her revenue comes from India.<SUP id=cite_ref-47 class=reference>[


</SUP>
<SUP></SUP> 
Does that make you feel better?
<SUP></SUP>


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## Luckysingh (Nov 21, 2012)

The funny thing is that if she were due to make an appearance for something within the sikh community be it a dance, ball or sports event..etc.. Then I'm certain that NONE of the men from the sikh community would object to her appearance !!!


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## Harry Haller (Nov 22, 2012)

> I would excommunicate her for shaving her hair on her cherry and not for her job!!!!



Kala Afghana was excommunicated, you want to excommunicate cherry shavers, and I should be excommuniated for being a mona. 

I always thought Sikhs were supposed to be enlightened, forgiving, surely we should be looking for reasons to include people, not bar them. 

So she does porn, big deal, as Luckyji says, if it offends you, don't watch it. 

Unfortunately, right now, all around the world there are many many oppressed Sikh women, all living a life of misery thanks to the culture they were raised, if she is happy, and content, good luck to her.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 22, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> What if it was a male pornstar with the same success. You would all say well done phaaji, good for you.
> 
> .


 
The gender is of no consequence. If she was a man, I would be disgusted.

There is nothing honorable in porn. Porn promotes Kaam, i.e. an unnatural obsession with sex. Sex per se is not bad, and is part of the natural order and should be enjoyed by men and women, in a relationship.

This is pure filth, and reading that site where she claims to be a Sikh, by her ow words makes me think as a father, I would not want my son or daughter to use her filthy behaviour as a good example.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> So she does porn, big deal, as Luckyji says, if it offends you, don't watch it.
> 
> .


 
How does someone who promotes Kaam claim to be a Sikh?

If she didn't claim to be a Sikh I don't think anyone would have a problem.

BTW I would include people who promote Hankaar, Moh, Lobh and Krodh in the same boat.

This is a fundemental requirement of trying to be a Sikh. I cannot see how it can be reconcilled by working in such an industry.

As you say good luck to her, but as a father I will certainly be teaching my children that that is a person she/he does not want to emulate. In fact I would use them as a poor model for humanity in general.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 22, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> The funny thing is that if she were due to make an appearance for something within the sikh community be it a dance, ball or sports event..etc.. Then I'm certain that NONE of the men from the sikh community would object to her appearance !!!


 
What kind of "Sikhs" would they be?

They would just be people who have the appearance of Sikhs.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 22, 2012)

Btw,

This is my view, from an earlier post:



> Originally Posted by Randip Singh
> I think that's the point, we are not in a position to judge, but she shouldn't really judge the faith either. See the statement she made about other women finding God and leaving the industry.
> 
> Also we seem to excommunicate people from Sikhism like Inder Singh Ghagga and others, yet people like this are not looked at. I find the whole dea of excommunication ridiculous.


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## jasbirkaleka (Nov 22, 2012)

At least she is not a hypocrite, like a wast majority of us are.


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## Archived_member15 (Nov 23, 2012)

> “...'But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I _will,_ sir’; but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?' They said, 'The first.' Jesus said to them, *'Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you*. For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing _this,_ did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.'..."
> 
> *- Jesus Christ (Gospel of Matthew 21:28-32)*


 

btw: 



> sunny leone (born karenjit kaur vohra may 13, 1981) is a canadian actress, businesswoman, model and*former pornographic actress*


 
This reminds me very much of the old adage (saying): 

*"A wounded deer leaps the highest" *





> "...One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and took his place at the table. And a woman in the city, who was a sinner, having learned that he was eating in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster jar of ointment. She stood behind him at his feet, weeping, and began to bathe his feet with her tears and to dry them with her hair. Then she continued kissing his feet and anointing them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what kind of woman this is who is touching him--that she is a sinner." Jesus spoke up and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." "Teacher," he replied, "Speak." "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he canceled the debts for both of them. Now which of them will love him more?" Simon answered, "I suppose the one for whom he canceled the greater debt." And Jesus said to him, "You have judged rightly." Then turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has bathed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which were many, have been forgiven; because she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little." Then he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." But those who were at the table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."..."
> 
> *Luke 7:36-50*


 



> Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. <SUP></SUP>The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them,<SUP></SUP>they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. <SUP></SUP>Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ <SUP></SUP>They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. <SUP></SUP>When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ <SUP></SUP>And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground.<SUP></SUP>When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. <SUP></SUP>Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ <SUP></SUP>She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’
> 
> *- Jesus Christ, (John 8. 2 – 11)*


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## Randip Singh (Nov 23, 2012)

jasbirkaleka said:


> At least she is not a hypocrite, like a wast majority of us are.


 
Jasbir ji, that is the crux of what is being debated here. Like many pakhadhi's out there who claim to be a Sikh, she too is claiming to be a Sikh.

The question is, would I like her to be a role model for my kids, or Bibi Nanaki, and Mai Bhago?

I would draw a line also between smut like porn, and nudity as an art form, or even things like the Karma Sutra.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 23, 2012)

Vouthon said:


> btw:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Indeed, I think our capacity to forgive should have no measure.

I think if someone like this can turn her back on such an industry and state look I made a mistake, I think people would respect her.

Many figures in history have done, this, Chandmaurya Gupta, Sajjan Thug, as well as Mary Magdalene.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Page 106


<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR bgColor=#babac7><TD>ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਕਰੇ ਜੀਅ ਸਾਰਾ ॥ 


Āpe bakẖas kare jī▫a sārā. 

He gives and forgives  us all


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅਪਨੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਨੋ ਆਪਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੇ ਪਇ ਪੈਰੀ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਮਨਾਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ 


Apne kīṯe no āp parṯipāle pa▫i pairī ṯisėh manā▫ī jī▫o. ||2|| 

He Himself nurtures and cherishes His Creation. I fall at His Feet and surrender to Him. ||2|| 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## ballym (Nov 25, 2012)

First off, our Gurus never asked us to judge a person by what JOB they do. I would appreciate her for her boldness in accepting what she does.
Everyone of us do all or some of 5 kurehits( bad habits?) or whatever u call it.
and we are also equally responsible by being a purchaser of her or similar services. please do not read this as a subscription to......
If she still talks about her religion and her family/father and mother, I would say that she is more of a sikh than many of us.I appreciate that she is leone.... singhni 
 If everything is going fine in life, it is easy to follow or pretend to follow accepted form of religion or show to others that I am following my religion. 
Guru nanak Dev ji said that we should be inclusive. That is why theory of ex-communication is against sikh religion.
BTW, Ishna Ji, even though you seem to be a moderate person and I agree with most of your viewpoints, I would like to point out that Whisky Tango Foxtrot  is not appropriate for sikhphilosophy ID. Moderators please note.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 25, 2012)

ballym said:


> First off, our Gurus never asked us to judge a person by what JOB they do. I would appreciate her for her boldness in accepting what she does.
> Everyone of us do all or some of 5 kurehits( bad habits?) or whatever u call it.
> and we are also equally responsible by being a purchaser of her or similar services. please do not read this as a subscription to......
> If she still talks about her religion and her family/father and mother, I would say that she is more of a sikh than many of us.I appreciate that she is leone.... singhni
> ...




You are coorect that Sikhism does not jusdge people by their job, but what it does say is that we have to be weary of the 5 thieves i.e.Kaam , Krodh , Moh, Lobh and Hankaar as it drives us away from Waheguru.

None of us is perfect and we struggle with the 5 thieves everyday, but for someone who activiley promotes the 5 thieves and thinks its great, and then claim it's the Sikh way, is really a bit too much.

Saying that, I think the concept of ex-communication is a bit daft really, as people who promote the 5 thieves and then think its the Sikh way is a form of self ex-communication or self delusion.


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## Ishna (Nov 25, 2012)

Modified as per request...


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## vaulakh (Dec 19, 2012)

Ex-communication cannot solve the the problem.Most pornstars join the pornographic industry because of their avaricious nature or they are addicted to drugs.Moreover polygamy is common in western countries,sexual morality is irrelevant to these girls.Apart from Sunny Leone there are a few other Indian pornstars.Certainly,their number will increase in future as Sikhs in western countries are abandoning their culture but consider themselves more civilized by adapting western way of life.


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## Ishna (Dec 19, 2012)

You know if you try harder you can bash westerners even more?

As a caucasian Westerner I do find your overgeneralisation of my culture a bit offensive.  I don't mind people pointing fingers at the dirt in my culture when it's balanced with the realisation that their own cultures are not perfect either.  Blaming the woes of your own culture on another one is a cop out.

I could say India is full of mysogynistic male control freaks but I won't because that would be an overgeneralisation, wouldn't it?


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## vaulakh (Dec 20, 2012)

Ishna said:


> You know if you try harder you can bash westerners even more?
> 
> As a caucasian Westerner I do find your overgeneralisation of my culture a bit offensive.  I don't mind people pointing fingers at the dirt in my culture when it's balanced with the realisation that their own cultures are not perfect either.  Blaming the woes of your own culture on another one is a cop out.
> 
> I could say India is full of mysogynistic male control freaks but I won't because that would be an overgeneralisation, wouldn't it?



It is your ego that offends you,because in your biography you have written that you are proud to be westerner.Please read CAREFULLY my reply to your post in The Current State of Sikhism in the West and notice that I do realize social problems in Punjab,as I concluded that if situation is bad in Punjab it is worse in west,as per results from social research.

Regarding your concept of 'mysogynistic male control freaks',I would say they are much more common in west as studies show that every 1 in 4 women in west experience domestic violence as consequence high divorce rate and many of these victims opt for LESBIAN orientation.Research has shown that LESBIANISM is mainly a consequence of domestic violence or egotism(extreme feminism),thus, it is not natural but a mental disorder.In general lesbians are not found in Punjab,only exceptional cases may be there.


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## Archived_member15 (Dec 20, 2012)

vaulakh said:


> every 1 in 4 women in west experience domestic violence as consequence high divorce rate and many of these victims opt for LESBIAN orientation.Research has shown that *LESBIANISM is mainly a consequence of domestic violence* or egotism(extreme feminism),thus, *it is not natural but a mental disorder*.*In general lesbians are not found in Punjab,only exceptional cases may be there*.


 

lol

I'm sorry brother, I don't mean to offend, but your words remind me of the President of Iran who said once while visiting the US, "There are no gays in Iran, we don't have this phenomenon" and I couldn't help myself! 

I can categorically tell you that lesbianism is *not *a result of sexual abuse. It is a valid sexual orientation for many women that they are born with, not chosen or conditioned by later experiences.

Lesbianism is not a mental disorder. If you read peer-reviewed studies in sexuality, you will see that it is the way nature makes some women. Homosexuality can also be found in the animal kingdom. 

BTW Sikhi is fortunate to be probably the ony religion on earth which doesn't explicitly refer to homosexuality at all in its sacred scriptures, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, so pray tell me where this prejudice towards homosexuals is coming from? It certainly isn't from Sikhi.


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 20, 2012)

Gyani ji

The saying of Jesus you mentioned came to mind also as I read from this thread.



> Randip Ji..OF COURSE IT DOES..Fixation with Food, sugar..meat..milk..kheer..maya..flashy cars..ANYTHING..takes us FURTHER AWAY from Guru Ji... Spot ON.
> so she is no different from Many of us...here the Jesus saying applies..Any who has not sinned cast the first stone...



By forgiveness from the Sikh community, it would create Forgiveness from the One. At least, that is how I understand Sikhism.  God is Everything.  Including Sunny and including the Forgiveness we create by offering it to others.

Religions tend to become more controlling as they get larger.  I hope the Sikh community will be able to respond to this challenge in a way that they give this kind of control to the One.

That's my two cents.

peacesignkaur


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## Harry Haller (Dec 20, 2012)

> Most pornstars join the pornographic industry because of their avaricious nature or they are addicted to drugs


I have never heard such rubbish, to most it is just a job, a means of earning money. As for drugs, no one wants to see naked women with needle marks all over the place, and at the end of the day, porn is a business, no director is going to risk money over hiring those who are addicts. 



> Moreover polygamy is common in western countries,sexual morality is irrelevant to these girls


How can you possibly make such definitive statements unless you have been part of the porn industry? You seem to be confusing the characters you may have seen with real life. I guess you probably think Stallone spends all his time hiding out in jungles looking for Vietnam war veterans. 



> Certainly,their number will increase in future as Sikhs in western  countries are abandoning their culture but consider themselves more  civilized by adapting western way of life.


All the West does is give people freedom of choice, that is why Sikhs in western countries are abandoning their culture. If people cannot deal with freedom of choice, than it is better that we set up some sort of Taliban Khalistan where people like your goodself can save yourselves, by enforcing what you believe to be Sikhism. 

Sometime ago, I went home to visit relations, what I heard and saw shocked me to the core, please do not lecture us about morality, a word which seems to mean 'do anything, but don't get caught' in India


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 20, 2012)

Vouthon said:


> lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## vaulakh (Dec 20, 2012)

sorry not meant for you


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## vaulakh (Dec 20, 2012)

harry haller is a typical stupid westerner.


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## vaulakh (Dec 20, 2012)

Vouthon said:


> lol
> 
> I'm sorry brother, I don't mean to offend, but your words remind me of the President of Iran who said once while visiting the US, "There are no gays in Iran, we don't have this phenomenon" and I couldn't help myself!
> 
> ...


Unfortunately,you distracted the attention from main topic-'mysogynistic male control freaks'.It is clear from social research that  MOST women opt for LESBIAN orientation due to physical or mental abuse by men,one cannot deny that unless one is stubborn.Regarding natural tendency for being a lesbian,research is controversial,because all genes regulating our behaviour have NOT been identified yet.We cannot definitely say at moment that whether some women are born to be lesbians or the enviornmental factors(including abuse)lead to lesbian orientation through epigenetic changes or some undiscovered phenomenan.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 20, 2012)

vaulakh said:


> harry haller is a typical stupid westerner.



from you, that is a compliment


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## spnadmin (Dec 20, 2012)

You know you are on an Internet forum when someone 


Thinks they will never be asked to back something up with facts or logic.
Believes one opinion is as good as another... and therefore doesn't have to back something up with facts or logic.
If he/she is asked to back something up, ignores the request and just ladles it on thicker and thicker. EVentually the other side will get bored or tired and give up.

Something a political science professor colleague used to tell all of us a lunch, often: Never admit you are wrong. Never back off. Just bore deeper and keep your opinions up there in front. Actually she lost her audience eventually, but it took years. Here are some examples of what I am talking about:


Most pornstars join the pornographic industry because of their avaricious nature or they are addicted to drugs. 
It is clear from social research that MOST women opt for LESBIAN orientation due to physical or mental abuse by men,one cannot deny that unless one is stubborn.
Moreover polygamy is common in western countries,
sexual morality is irrelevant to these girls.
their number will increase in future as Sikhs in western countries are abandoning their culture but consider themselves more civilized by adapting western way of life.



And then there is this one: "Unfortunately,you distracted the attention from main topic-'mysogynistic male control freaks'"

That is when member plays moderator. When that happens you are surely on an Internet forum. No, "mysogynistic male control freaks" is not the main topic. So let's go back to the main topic.


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 20, 2012)

Coincidentally, The Talk just brought up a study which shows porn stars have higher self-esteem and spirituality than other women.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2012/11/porn_stars_higher_self-esteem_study.php


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## Ishna (Dec 20, 2012)

I haven't missed your post in the other thread and I will get to it.

As for the rest of your comments here, James Bond himself will have to answer on my behalf because I can't stop laughing.  lol


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## Harry Haller (Dec 20, 2012)

james bond? where?


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## Luckysingh (Dec 20, 2012)

vaulakh said:


> harry haller is a typical stupid westerner.


 
Mr vaulakh, you seem to have a real problem and personal issue with westerners!!
You seem to think that all we do is have extra marital affairs, watch and participate in porn, orgies and women that get abused or raped become lesbians !!
So how do you explain gay men ? Were they bullied in school playgrounds by the tougher girls from the opposite sex ???? (Because we have so many cases of little boys being victimised by girls with barbie dolls!)

*I can only think of TWO Explanations for your very isolated and crazy views-*

*1) You have been watching the wrong movies and the wrong adult channels ( there is way more far eastern porn!!)*
*2) You have most likely been DENIED a VISA to come over to the west and so you are blaming not just the authorities but anything to do with the west in order to DEAL with YOUR REJECTION !!*
*(PLEASE NOTE- REJECTION can lead to many personality disorders and phobias!!- I highly recommend you seek medical attention and counselling)*


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## Randip Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

vaulakh said:


> It is your ego that offends you,because in your biography you have written that you are proud to be westerner.Please read CAREFULLY my reply to your post in The Current State of Sikhism in the West and notice that I do realize social problems in Punjab,as I concluded that if situation is bad in Punjab it is worse in west,as per results from social research.
> 
> Regarding your concept of 'mysogynistic male control freaks',I would say they are much more common in west as studies show that every 1 in 4 women in west experience domestic violence as consequence high divorce rate and many of these victims opt for LESBIAN orientation.Research has shown that LESBIANISM is mainly a consequence of domestic violence or egotism(extreme feminism),thus, it is not natural but a mental disorder.In general lesbians are not found in Punjab,only exceptional cases may be there.


 
Comments aside (which I think are not based on any fact), your tone and manner of writing is not very polite. I suggest you address
  people with more respect.:angryyoungsingh:


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 21, 2012)

Sat Nam



> more respect.



The reason I begin most posts with "Sat Nam" and _/|\_ is to take a moment to say: I bow to Your True Identity.  Our Divine Identity exists in our hearts/souls and I need to remind myself constantly that disrespecting another person is  disrespecting the Divine.

mundahug


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 18, 2013)

Can any learn member define what is the definition of prostitution as per gurbani. Please not from the Rehat Maryada.

Gurbani is guiding that anyone who dies with thought of women at last moment, gets reincarnated as prostitute. The issue “Is prostitute a Joon or Profession?”.
2) If someone still comes back into Manukhi Joon (prostitute) by remembering woman, then there shouldn’t be any problem in doing so, because at the end of the day Gurbani advocates that Manukhi joon is supreme joon. If we can come back to supreme joon by remembering woman and escape the 84 Lakh joon cycle, then what is the problem in doing so?
3) As per gurbani even prostitute (Ganika) can get one to one with Akal Purakh. If prostitute can also attain salvation, then what is the problem in coming back as Prostitute? At least we are saved from becoming animals or tree?

Is their any historical evidence what was the profession of Ganika and why guru sahib have used Ganika in gurbani?. Is gurbani referring 'ganika' only to ladies?

I would love to receive comments from learned members?

best regards
sahni


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

I'll quote the meaning of _Ganika_ as provided in the Mahankosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Ji Nabha.



> ਗਨਕਾ - ganakā - गनका
> ਸੰ. ਗਣਿਕਾ. ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ- ਵੇਸ਼੍ਯਾ. ਕੰਚਨੀ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਗਣਿਕਾ. ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਦੋ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ. ਇੱਕ ਪਿੰਗਲਾ, ਜੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ ਦੀ ਪੁਰੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਸੀ. ਇੱਕ ਰਾਤ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਕਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ. ਅੱਧੀ ਰਾਤ ਵੀਤਣ ਪੁਰ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਤਾਵਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਿ ਜੇ ਇਤਨਾ ਧ੍ਯਾਨ ਅਤੇ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਵੱਲ ਜੋੜਦੀ, ਤਦ ਕੇਹਾ ਉੱਤਮ ਫਲ ਹੁੰਦਾ. ਉਸੇ ਵੇਲੇ ਸਭ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਛੱਡਕੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਪਰਾਇਣ ਹੋਈ ਅਤੇ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿਤਾਇਆ. ਇਸੇ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਤਾਤ੍ਰੇਯ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਲਪਿਆ ਸੀ.
> "ਅਜਾਮਲੁ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਲੁਭਤੁ ਕੁੰਚਰੁ ਗਏ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ." (ਕੇਦਾ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ).
> ਦੂਜੀ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਉਹ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਾਧੂ ਨੇ ਤੋਤਾ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਹਰਿਨਾਮ ਸਿਖਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਉਹ ਨਾਮਅਭ੍ਯਾਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੱਗਕੇ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਹੋ ਗਈ. "ਗਨਿਕਾ ਉਧਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਕਹੈ ਤੋਤ." (ਬਸੰ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੫) "ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਗਨਕਾ ਸੀ ਉਧਰੀ." (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੯) ਦੇਖੋ ਗਨਿਕਾ.





> ਗਣਿਕਾ - ganikā - गणिका
> ਸੰ. ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ- ਗਣ (ਬਹੁਤ) ਪਤੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ. ਬਹੁਤਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ. ਵੇਸ਼੍ਯਾ. ਕੰਚਨੀ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਗਨਕਾ। ੨. ਹਥਣੀ. ਗਜੀ. ਅਨੇਕ ਹਾਥੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਹ ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ ਹੈ



Now coming to your questions,


> If someone still *comes back* into Manukhi Joon (prostitute) by remembering woman, then there shouldn’t be any problem in doing so, because at the end of the day Gurbani advocates that Manukhi joon is supreme joon. If we can come back to supreme joon by remembering woman and escape the 84 Lakh joon cycle, then what is the problem in doing so?



Japjishaib04 Ji,

History has it that the door is never closed for anyone in Sikhism. There is always room for repentance and reconciliation. The example of _Ganika_ as you quoted precisely proves that. But for a start the offender has to accept his/her mistakes and offences in the first place.
Sikhism has always been a religion of love and peace.
But aw I said, the onus always lies with the offender to begin with.


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 18, 2013)

aristotle said:


> I'll quote the meaning of _Ganika_ as provided in the Mahankosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Ji Nabha.



Aristotle Jee

In both cases quoted, it is the female gender who is targeted. Does it mean Gurmat also discriminate with the gender?  The pankti referred, ' "ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਗਨਕਾ ਸੀ ਉਧਰੀ." If we limit our understanding by focusing 'ਗਨਕਾ' as merely a lady having affair with several man, than what about Islam which permits a man to have four wife officially and as many as 62 mistresses. Does it mean, man remains pious having relation with more than one lady and lady becomes unpious having relation with more than a man. Further Gurmat does not reject sensuality and speaks of the purification and refinement of desire, it does not reject bhogi, the pleasure seeker. Indeed the divine is seen as the bhogi among bhogis.  Further when I can sell or donate my kidney, eyes etc which gives me relief or to other then what is wrong in selling other parts.    

In my understanding,  Ganika does not represent a name or just refers to a woman but guru sahib is referring to someone who has sold off his conscience and definition of prostitute as per gurbani is the one who has sold off his conscience and not a lady who by profession earns money.

Can anyone quote a pankti from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji forbidding relation with more than one lady or man.

I would love to hear comments from other learned members.  

Best regrds
sahni


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

> In my understanding, Ganika does not represent a name or just refers to a woman but guru sahib is referring to someone who has sold off his conscience and definition of prostitute as per gurbani is the one who has sold off his conscience and not a lady who by profession earns money.


I agree here somewhat. Gurmat does not discriminate on basis of gender.
Should male prostitutes be given a free hand; are the males who sleep with those prostitutes any better?
My answer is no.



> Further when I can sell or donate my kidney, eyes etc which gives me relief or to other then what is wrong in selling other parts.


There are specific organ donation laws and are strongly implemented in most of the countries. You cannot 'donate' your vital organs just out of free will while alive except in special circumstances when legally permissible.
Moreover, simple because the word 'selling' is used both for selling organs in black market and for prostitution, you can't equate the two. People don't 'donate' their genitals when they visit a brothel. 
That's way out of meaning. Please don't drag meanings this way.



> what about Islam which permits a man to have four wife officially and as many as 62 mistresses.


Well, you have quoted Islam which explicitly permits polygamy in some forms. The Qur'an and Hadiths have clear mentions on this fact. 
Can you find a parallel permission anywhere in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj or the Sikh Rehat Maryada??



> Can anyone quote a pankti from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji forbidding relation with more than one lady or man.


Well, I would like to reverse the question. Can you point a single time Polygyny/polygamy/polyandry is encouraged in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj? 
Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is not a cookbook of do's and dont's unlike other the texts of other religious or spiritual groups you may refer to.

Moreover, Sikhs as good citizens ought to follow the law of the land. Polygamy is not allowed (except for special legal accommodations for religions like Islam, where it is 'permitted' in religious laws) in most of the countries by law. In many countries, even prostitution and pornography(in various forms; filming, viewing, possessing or distributing) may not be permitted.

The Sikh Rehat Maryada encourages monogamy and being faithful towards one's partner, as well as prohibiting intercourse with a person other than one's spouse,


> Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.
> _Chapter XI, Article XVIII, p_





> He who regards another man's daughter as his own daughter, regards another man's wife as his mother, has coition with his own wife alone, he alone is a truly disciplined Sikh of the Guru. A Sikh woman shall likewise keep within the confines of conjugal rectitude.
> _Chapter X, Article XVI, p_





> The undermentioned four  transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided
> 
> 1. Dishonouring the hair;
> 2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
> ...



Sometimes all we have to do is put our thinking caps on. Morality does not solely derive from religion, societal norms and mental faculties of a person have a lot to do with this topic.


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 18, 2013)

aristotle said:


> I agree here somewhat. Gurmat does not discriminate on basis of gender. Should male prostitutes be given a free hand; are the males who sleep with those prostitutes any better? My answer is no.


 First of all who are the prostitutes and what is the definition of prostitute? According to recent surveys almost 98% of male and female make multiple relationship? And as per Maskin Sahib remaining two percent if don't make multiple relationship it does not they didn't want out of social obligation, morality but because they didn't get the chance. Then why are we living double standard and targeting the one(prostitute) who are only coming up as help for those who were not able to develop relationship.[/QUOTE] 



> There are specific organ donation laws and are strongly implemented in most of the countries. You cannot 'donate' your vital organs just out of free will while alive except in special circumstances when legally permissible.
> 
> Moreover, simple because the word 'selling' is used both for selling organs in black market and for prostitution, you can't equate the two. People don't 'donate' their genitals when they visit a brothel.  That's way out of meaning. Please don't drag meanings this way.


Blood which is creates and takes care for all organs is officially sold and my point was different.



> Well, I would like to reverse the question. Can you point a single time Polygyny/polygamy/polyandry is encouraged in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj?


I am not able to find a single pankti which forbids me to have multiple relationship. What is there is excess of everything is bad.




> Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is not a cookbook of do's and dont's unlike other the texts of other religious or spiritual groups you may refer to.


Aristotle jee 

Over here I don't agree with. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of instruction guiding us how to be truthful. Please check page No.16 from line 14 onwards in addition to enquiring utility of fasting, idol worshipping, intoxicant, tobacco and hundreds of other rituals.

best regards
sahni


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## spnadmin (Sep 18, 2013)

Here is the last paragraph from the very first comment in this thread "Should Sunny Leone be Excommunicated?



> In any case, shouldn't people like this be excommunicated formaly from Sikhi rather than people like Kala Afghana? I mean, Ok, if she wants to be a pornstar, that is fine, but why is she claiming to be a Sikh? Has she taken Amrit? does she wear the 5k's? At best she is an apostate Sikh?



The thread starter, Randip Singh ji, respected forum leader, was not taking a personal position on this but asking some key questions. They are questions that lead to some very thorny issues.

1. What makes a Sikh?

2. Does excommunication mean the same thing in Sikhi as in another religion like Roman Catholicism?

3. How does the decision to mark one person for excommunication hold up, when other people committing the same offense never come to the attention of the panth?

3a. Should the Singhs who buy and watch pornography be held to the same level of moral accountability? Guru Nanak actually held men who took prostitutes to a higher level of moral accountability.

4. Is excommunication a matter of stripping one of one's religious affiliation, or is it more like shunning, wherein one is deprived of pangat and sangat until one receives a tankhah, carries it out, and asks for atonement?

5. What difference does it make to deprive Sunny Leone of pangat and sangat? Does it make me a better person? Does it bring me closer to Ik Oan Kar?

6. Does Ik Oan Kar reside within Sunny Leone, or not until she accepts a tankha and seeks attonement? And gets it?

7. If Sunny Leone is deprived of pangat and sangat, is the panth better for it? 

8. How would the practice of Sikhi by Sikhs change in fundamental ways by punishment of Sunny Leone? Joginder Singh was excommunicated; Sikhs still read Rozana Spokesman.

9. This is a notorious case that will not die. Why does the sexuality of a woman acquire international notoriety? Why on the other hand is it the theological arguments of a man that achieve the same level of international notoriety? I am wondering about proportionality of moral outrage, not so much about equal treatment of sexes. 

10. When Maharajah Ranjit Singh received a tankhah (in his case it was a sound whipping) for his dalliances with a dancing girl, he brought her into his household of wives and concubines. If my memory is correct - Gyani ji please correct me - this was the same woman who came to sati when he died. Does our high regard for the greater achievements of Maharaja ji outweigh our concern for kaam, or sati? Or did his humble acceptance of punishment make Sikhs more forgiving? Sunny Leone would not be "on his same level."  Or would she?


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

> First of all who are the prostitutes and what is the
> definition of prostitute?



According to Merriam Webster dictionary,


> prostitute
> noun
> 1 a : a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse especially for money : *****
> b : a male who engages in sexual and especially homosexual practices for money
> 2 : a person (as a writer or painter) who deliberately debases his or her talents (as for money)





> Blood which is creates and takes care for all organs is
> officially sold and my point was different.


Blood is not 'officially sold', only the costs incurred at its preservation in bloodbanks are recovered. Anyways I think you want to make another point on this. Please state what.



> Aristotle jee
> Over here I don't agree with. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> is full of instruction guiding us how to be truthful.
> Please check page No.16 from line 14 onwards in
> ...


Well, I don't think so. Seeing Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj as a list of instructions will be highly erroneous. There is no doubt in my mind that Gurbani urges the Sikhs to think and decide for themselves rather than dictating a set of laws.
There are certain theological points, ike you mentioned fasting and idol worshipping et cetera, where Gurbani is absolutely clear and explicit, but there too there isn't binding, there is no such concept in Gurmat where personal discretion is not evoked. 
Guru Sahib is not a holy book, that is what the whole concept is about.


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> 1. What makes a Sikh?


Regarding the matter at hand, I don't think we should go by mere definitions. In fact, each time we give a definition, we shut a number of people out of that definition, which may not always be fair.



> 2. Does excommunication mean the same thing in Sikhi as in another religion like Roman Catholicism?
> 
> 3. How does the decision to mark one person for excommunication hold up, when other people committing the same offense never come to the attention of the panth?
> 
> 3a. Should the Singh who buy and watch pornography be held to the same level of moral accountability? Guru Nanak actually held men who took prostitutes to a higher level of moral accountability.



Well, the Papal decisions in the medieval times regarding excommunication were no different from those by our Jathedars in the present times, tinted with political colours and the cause of confusion among the believer masses. I don't think those who make such decisions themselves take them any seriously. 



> 4. Is excommunication a matter of stripping one of one's religious affiliation, or is it more like shunning, wherein one is deprived of pangat and sangat until one receives a tankhah, carries it out, and asks for atonement?


I think it is more like a social embarrasment encouraging a person to take responsibility for his/her doings and seek repentance for them.



> 5. What difference does it make to deprive Sunny Leone of pangat and sangat? Does it make me a better person? Does it bring me closer to Ik Oan Kar?


Well, I doubt if Sunny considers herself a Sikh anyways, although there is a tendency among pornstars to come clean as having 'accepted' God into their lives as they near their retirement. There have been numerous such cases and fake religious conversions, they are nothing but an eyewash. 



> 6. Does Ik Oan Kar reside within Sunny Leone, or not until she accepts a tankha and seeks attonement? And gets it?
> 
> 7. If Sunny Leone is deprived of pangat and sangat, is the panth better for it?
> 
> 8. How would the practice of Sikhi by Sikhs change in fundamental ways by punishment of Sunny Leone? Joginder Singh was excommunicated; Sikhs still read Rozana Spokesman.


Well, it all boils down again to a simple question, 'Is Sunny Leone, or whatever is her real name, a Sikh?' I don't hink a person should be extended the privilege of being called a Sikh just by the virtue of her being born into a Sikh family. I don't think there is any clause of segregation of someone in any way in Sikhism, it does however at the same time, condemn immoral acts.



> 10. When Maharajah Ranjit Singh received a tankhah (in his case it was a sound whipping) for his dalliances with a dancing girl, he brought her into his household of wives and concubines. If my memory is correct - Gyani ji please correct me - this was the same woman who came to sati when he died. Does our high regard for the greater achievements of Maharaja ji outweigh our concern for kaam, or sati? Or did his humble acceptance of punishment make Sikhs more forgiving? Sunny Leone would not be "on his same level."  Or would she?


Maharajah Ranjit Singh was a good king, he initiated a number of sociopolitical    reforms and is praised for them. But does that automatically qualify him of being held in regard in Sikh circles? I don't think so.
IMO Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur was the only 'King' in history who represented the Khalsa Raj.
Ranjit Singh was no different to other contemporary emperors in matters of sociality, he had a number of wives and concubines, and enjoyed the luxuries of a King's life, knowing at the same time that someone somewhere would be dying of starvation in his own kingdom.
Moreover, Sikh religious leaders had quite a spine at that time, that was precisely what made Ranjit's indictment before the Akal Takht Sahib possible. Laws, religious or political, are as good as the enforcers want them to be.


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 18, 2013)

aristotle said:


> prostitute noun
> 1 a : a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse especially for money : *****
> b : a male who engages in sexual and especially homosexual practices for money
> 2 : a person (as a writer or painter) who deliberately debases his or her talents (as for money).



Our dear bapu asaram had gifted two flats to Shilpi in exchange for sex. Does she come under that definition? Wherever there is multiple relationship there is always exchange of favors either through gift, arranging job or something else.

best regards
sahni


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## spnadmin (Sep 18, 2013)

aristotle ji

You are taaaaaaaaaaaaking some big risks in that reply! It was good however to read something that veers from the expected and challenges majority sentiments.


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> aristotle ji
> 
> You are taaaaaaaaaaaaking some big risks in that reply! It was good however to read something that veers from the expected and challenges majority sentiments.



Well, never meant to offend any religious sentiments.
But what transpires behind curtains is an open secret, isn't it?
:meditation:


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## Harry Haller (Sep 18, 2013)

Aristotleji

Your post was everything I expected from you, straight to the point. 

I do however take issue with you on one point



> IMO Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur was the only 'King' in history who represented the Khalsa Raj.


 


The hate, violence and anger that surrounds what happened at Sirhind, to me, is a bigger transgression than sleeping with the enemy. 

Other than that, I have started to look forward to your posts hugely, we could be twins!


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

> The hate, violence and anger that surrounds what happened at Sirhind, to me, is a bigger transgression than sleeping with the enemy.


Well, at this point, I seriously don't know which History book to trust.
But what I have always visualized about Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur is a man full of love and compassion, unflinching in his Gurmat principle. If there were hate towards a community or people, probably the Rauza Sharif or the numerous old Muslim mausoleums wouldn't be standing tall in Sirhind or Fatehgarh Sahib even today. Probably, our religious history scholars need a little brushing up on that matter.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 18, 2013)

aristotle said:


> Well, at this point, I seriously don't know which History book to trust.
> But what I have always visualized about Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur is a man full of love and compassion, unflinching in his Gurmat principle. If there were hate towards a community or people, probably the Rauza Sharif or the numerous old Muslim mausoleums wouldn't be standing tall in Sirhind or Fatehgarh Sahib even today. Probably, our religious history scholars need a little brushing up on that matter.



History records that he managed to split the Khalsa, he was an incredible human being, and if brushing up exposes the events at Sirhind as a lie, no one will be more pleased than me.

Surely the only true King ever to rule in the style of King was the Tenth Master.


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## aristotle (Sep 18, 2013)

> Surely the only true King ever to rule in the style of King was the Tenth Master.


Can't agree more.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 18, 2013)

There are a lots of things to be discussed here from the revived thread. I will discuss a few here and will pitch in when the need arises.

Japjishaib 04 ji writes: 





> Can any learn member define what is the definition of prostitution as per gurbani. Please not from the Rehat Maryada.
> Gurbani is guiding that anyone who dies with thought of women at last moment, gets reincarnated as prostitute. The issue “Is prostitute a Joon or Profession?”.
> 2) If someone still comes back into Manukhi Joon (prostitute) by remembering woman, then there shouldn’t be any problem in doing so, because at the end of the day Gurbani advocates that Manukhi joon is supreme joon. If we can come back to supreme joon by remembering woman and escape the 84 Lakh joon cycle, then what is the problem in doing so?
> 3) As per gurbani even prostitute (Ganika) can get one to one with Akal Purakh. If prostitute can also attain salvation, then what is the problem in coming back as Prostitute? At least we are saved from becoming animals or tree?
> ...



Ganika is used as a metaphor for a person who falls off the way. 

According to srigranth.org, it is used 6 times in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and interestingly 3 times by Guru Teg Bahadur, our 9th Guru, all in the verses of rahao. 
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=english

Of course, Ganika is a feminine gender linguistically speaking but as per Gurbani as it is used as a metaphor, it is referred to any person of any gender who has veered off from the Gurmat path..

Gurbani acknowledges the belief of reincarnation but also urges us to follow the Gurmukh path in order to get rid of this nonsensical belief. If one does not, then this non-gurmat belief continues in one’s mind while alive because no one knows what happens after death.

So, Ganika is neither a joon nor a profession according to Gurbani but one’s bad deeds like of a prostitute.


> Further when I can sell or donate my kidney, eyes etc which gives me relief or to other then what is wrong in selling other parts.



Japjisahib ji, you are mixing apples with oranges here. All the above are tangible organs whereas prostitution is an intangible character flaw. It is a service rendered which is quite different from your given examples.

One more important thing to notice is that if we take the word Ganika in its literal form, then this is a service rendered to another “Ganika”, in this case a male. Hence both become Ganikas.

Tejwant Singh


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## ballym (Sep 23, 2013)

japjisahib04 said:


> I am not able to find a single pankti which forbids me to have multiple relationship. What is there is excess of everything is bad.
> 
> Over here I don't agree with. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of instruction guiding us how to be truthful. Please check page No.16 from line 14 onwards in addition to enquiring utility of fasting, idol worshipping, intoxicant, tobacco and hundreds of other rituals.


SGGS Ji HAS references about not indulging in persons other than your wife/husband.
 Secondly... SGGS Ji does not give a list... of do and dont's. It is  holy book for people so one will always find daily life references.
 The poetic lines are there as guide... We can not go in semantics.... and bring out a totally different meaning of SGGS Ji


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Gurbani is universal. Each and every pankti applies to every human beings whether married or non married. If I accept your version and understanding of gurbani then how would you applies those pankties to non married.

bests regards
sahni


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## AngloSikhPeace (Sep 24, 2013)

Excommunicate someone who hasn't taken amrit? 


If they can do that, they should do KPS Brar, Gill, Badal and co before moving on to some virtually unknown prostitute lady.


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## jasbirkaleka (Sep 24, 2013)

AngloSikhPeace said:


> Excommunicate someone who hasn't taken amrit?
> 
> 
> If they can do that, they should do KPS Brar, Gill, Badal and co before moving on to some virtually unknown prostitute lady.



  Pls. try not to use the term "prostitute'. And we have no right to judge or condemn anyone. 
  For those sitting on high pedestals, I would like to quote Madame de Beauvoir, philosopher, author of THE SECOND SEX and a very close friend of Jean-Paul Satre, who defined marriage as 'legalized prostitution".


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## AngloSikhPeace (Sep 24, 2013)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Pls. try not to use the term "prostitute'. And we have no right to judge or condemn anyone.
> For those sitting on high pedestals, I would like to quote Madame de Beauvoir, philosopher, author of THE SECOND SEX and a very close friend of Jean-Paul Satre, who defined marriage as 'legalized prostitution".


Isn't that what the article about?
Or is she a pornography star or something?


Anyway, the is the least of the list of people who you would expect to get excommunicated. She's never killed anyone.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 24, 2013)

> Isn't that what the article about?
> Or is she a pornography star or something?


your commenting without actually knowing? try reading the first post, before we become as guilty as those that think we look like terrorists.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 25, 2014)

gentlemen let us continue if you wish


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## Sherdil (Mar 25, 2014)

AngloSikhPeace said:


> Excommunicate someone who hasn't taken amrit?
> 
> 
> If they can do that, they should do KPS Brar, Gill, Badal and co before moving on to some virtually unknown prostitute lady.



I agree with this.


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## Sherdil (Mar 25, 2014)

For the record:

I don't think she is a bad person. I don't know her personally, so I will not judge her in that regard. 

I also know what it feels like when people say you are a bad Sikh. I grew up with cut hair, and I would often get called out by amritdharis at gurdwara. Their only qualification was that they drank the "nectar" had long hair. That somehow gave them the authority to look down on everyone else. Ironically, those same people are now openly leading "unholy" lifestyles. 

When I was young, I knew an amritdhari family friend who used to lock us in his room and show us dirty pictures. He then made us comment on each one. Apparently, he got a kick out of it. Everyone thought he was the golden boy, lol if only they knew...

I avoid going to gurdwara because it is full of hypocrites. They are quick to judge you based on your appearance, but they are the ones with filthy souls. Nobody goes to gurdwara for enlightenment. They just go to socialize, gossip and eat langar. 

That being said, there has to be more to being a Sikh than simply being born into a Sikh family. If we don't practice what we preach, then we are all hypocrites. That goes for the fake amritdharis out there as well.


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## spnadmin (Mar 26, 2014)

A 'how well do you know Sikhi" question.

What exactly is the word or term for excommunicate in Sikhism? Your answer has to be exact. The answer cannot be " xxxxxxx " is sort of like "excommunicate."


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## ravneet_sb (Mar 29, 2014)

spnadmin said:


> A 'how well do you know Sikhi" question.
> 
> What exactly is the word or term for excommunicate in Sikhism? Your answer has to be exact. The answer cannot be " xxxxxxx " is sort of like "excommunicate."



SAT SRI AKAAL,

"GURU's BANI" 

"TRUTH FULL" Living

One is never tight lipped, and is inside out, never out of expression.

GURU's Well described all the ways of earning livelihood

Cutting Animal, Prostitution, Stealing, Yogis, Magicians, Dacoits, etc 

Sikh were also shown the path of "TRUTHFULL" Living

"LUST" falls on all humans, 

if "ONE" approves the way, one perform the action accordingly.

Only who has done cleansing of mind, of ingress of "Lust" thought may have authority to excommunicate.

One make laws for Others, 
As Lord Ram, 
but when it comes to own wife, one has to follow same LAW as " Maryada of Pursh Uttam:" and may one regrets.

This is learning from religion. It's not about hardaware, its about software which operates. 

But until and unless one is using "MANMAT" one is intoxicated by nature itself and performs actions under "intoxication" 

Unaware about happenings of mind, and is self willed manmukh.

Till one seeks the way of "TRUTHFUL LIVING" as "Learner"

But again "MORTAL" has no power to do so.



Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## aristotle (Mar 31, 2014)

spnadmin said:


> A 'how well do you know Sikhi" question.
> 
> What exactly is the word or term for excommunicate in Sikhism? Your answer has to be exact. The answer cannot be " xxxxxxx " is sort of like "excommunicate."



Well, the favourite term 'Jathedars' use in this regard is (ਪੰਥ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ) ਛੇਕਣਾ...


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## aristotle (Mar 31, 2014)

ravneet_sb said:


> SAT SRI AKAAL,
> 
> "GURU's BANI"
> 
> ...



How is this relevant to the ongoing discussion?:whatzpointsing:


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## ashdoc (Aug 5, 2017)

Sunny adopts a child in Latur in Maharashtra. Names her Nisha Kaur Weber . Remembers her own Punjabi heritage while naming the child---

Sunny Leone, Daniel Weber adopt baby girl, Nisha Kaur Weber from Latur


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## ravneet_sb (Aug 13, 2017)

Sat Sri Akaal,

What right one has to intervene in personal life. Education and followance was only criteria to be a SIKH.

It was major social and public issue. 

And personal issue as today SIKHs definetion by a ritualistic approach.

Who are born in Sikh family
Who use Kaur Singh as Surnames
Who keep unshorn hair and wear turban
Who uses five symbols of faith

Without education how to make one understand and how one can understand what is personal and what is social.

We as SIKHs have made this law and we are feeling bad when a bad ritual takes form of SIKH as we have defined.
They have voting rights.

If one understand the cause of SIKHISM was education of own self.

If one takes the criteria what Gurus ha shown the way what remains in SIKHISM after excommunication.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 Sat Sri Akaal,


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