# Who Is Sikh? Who Is Not?



## pk70 (Jul 20, 2008)

I have a circle of friends who are very much into Gurbani, good people but rarely feel to be bound with a strict Sikh Maryada.  As per their opinion, it is made by a group of people whose intention is to institutionalize a great religion and control it; their only guiding force is Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and literally that is what they do need and care and,  they say that Sikhism is  beyond boundaries.  One of them is Ashok Khurana  who once lost temper when he heard another our Hindu friend Bhavnesh used not respectful words for Guru Nanak, Ashok snapped, he slapped him, such strong emotions he harbors for Guru Ji. When I asked to show a little tolerance towards ignorant, he said”, it is not being ignorant, it is purposeful and when it comes to Guru, it’s hard for him to hold and put up with such trashy words.
  In my eyes, he is a Sikh, struggling on a path. Question: if Ashok is not a Sikh as per Sikh maryada, what is he? Kindly share my views if you can.


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not*

pk70,

I think that this thread will stir up some interesting debate. But for starters *Who Is  Sikh Who Is Not* raises one set of issues. And *Who is a Sikh per Rehat Maryada* raises a different set of issues.

The *Rehat Maryada,* in my humble opinion, should not be viewed as a means of control. It took 2 generations of study and the input of scholars and spiritual people from all of Sikhi to finally come up with a document that gained consensual support in the Sikh community. The *Rehat Maryada *has perhaps been manipulated for political reasons by political operatives. And, when you ask, who is a Sikh per the *Rehat Maryada*? then we have to take a look at what it says. Again in my humble opinion -- it says in so many places -- A Sikh should... describing a path that A Sikh should follow. To me this allows for transitions in Sikh identity.

But here is the definition of a Sikh per the *Rehat Maryada*

[SIZE=-1]*The Definition of Sikh :*

_* Article I*_
                        Any human being who faithfully believes in
*i.* One Immortal Being, 
* ii*. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind                          Singh Sahib,
                        iii. The Guru Granth Sahib, 
                        iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does                          not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

Please note: The most recent proposal to revise the Indian Gurdwara Act (now under review) would change this definition eliminating item "i." belief in One Immortal Being. That of course changes everything and many view this as a blatant political tactic by Badal and his associates on SGPC.

Moral of the story. Nothing is ever simple. 
[/SIZE]​


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## pk70 (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not*



aad0002 said:


> pk70,
> 
> I think that this thread will stir up some interesting debate. But for starters *Who Is  Sikh Who Is Not* raises one set of issues. And *Who is a Sikh per Rehat Maryada* raises a different set of issues.
> 
> ...



*aad0002 Ji,
Thanks for giving a broad view on both sides; I am amritdhari but Guru Grannth Sahib Ji's study has changed my own views; historically, Tenth Master he turned victims into self defenders through Amrit ceremony, kept his heart open for those who adored Gurbani but didnt take amrit. Being a part of Guru's Khalsa, Sikhs in those days never never gave frown look who were not amritdharis as todays some amritdharis do. Now these some amritdharis behave like funatics of other faiths. They also feel they have a license to go direct to heaven seat or would be apporoved  by Guru as true Sikhs. My stance is different; Guru ji asked to have amrit at a choice but it was not forced though History states that first time over 50000 took it( Vaguely, Pl dont question my numbers), many famous Sikhs of Guru Ji's time, remained " Sehaj Dhari" and were well respected. Sikh identity Guru ji gave will stay  for ever even if some choose to be Sehajdharis" if they believe nothing but in ten Guru and Guru Granth sahib Ji. When I meet my friend like Ashok Khurana, and see how deeply he adores Gurbani and Guru and struggles to practice it, I feel he is a Sikh, how any one can measure his Sikhi basing on only one thing " amrit ceremony. Does amrit ceremony change people? I doubt it does so. Does Gurbani change people? I veryfy this with own experience. Understanding religion, one needs to grow up spiritually before passing own judgments on those who just differ. I strongly believe that a Sikh should take amrit but also support sehajdharis and resppect them as Sikhs of Guru. For me, measure is how a known Sikh lives. Is it as per Gurbani or just opposite and hypcratically singing Gurbani? Mere appearance has no value for me. In Islam, men are supposed to keep beard but many dont do, have they become less Muslims? Ceertainly not. What do you say on this please?
*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not*



pk70 ji

are you a sikh?


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not*

pk70 ji

We are not necessarily in disagreement. Renunciation, pilgrimages and ritual baths do not alone bring us to awareness of the Satguru. I am not amritdhaari and may never be. The original context for taking amrit sanchaar was to show one's commitment to a principled way of life, to humility, to be God's servant. And this was and is sanctified by drinking the "ambrosial nectar" as symbolized in the amrit sanchaar ceremony. So we look around and many amritdhari are not living a principled way of life, they are not humble, they are not living in submission to God -- the world looks upside down. The one's who should be completely wrapped in the spirit of seva are instead wrapped in the spirit of politics. 

But --is this surprizing? Not every amritdhari is so off the path. Many are wrapped in devotion and seva. So this is no different from what you would find in any other religious tradition or in any of their sangats or places of worship. In Christianity the scripture quotes Jesus as saying, "Oh ye of little faith!" In the janamsaakhi Nanak decides to throw handfulls of water to the west -- because that water will reach his herds of cattle before the water thrown to the east by the Brahmins will reach their ancestors. Many of us on the planet Earth need symbols and they need concrete proof, or they are ruled by concern for respectability and what other people think. It doesn't change my mind. It has always been this way and it always will. 

Got is not an amritdhari; He is the amrit. God does not go to gurdwara; He already dwells in all the sacred spaces in the form of Guruji. God does not ask for rituals; He celebrates Himself. He is also the Forgiver who pervades everyone. So my two cents --  have to move on.

P/S I have known people who were changed by amrit sanchaar in very deep and profound ways.


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## pk70 (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not*



amarsanghera said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> are you a sikh?



*amarsanghera ji
Your question has made me aware of my being a Sikh who is struggling to stay on Guru  path. Thanks for the question though!
*


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## Sinister (Jul 20, 2008)

In my experience;

A Sikh?

A sikh is a person who once claimed to be a sikh, then for a while claimed not be a sikh and then claims to be sikh again after further thought and evaluation.


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## pk70 (Jul 20, 2008)

Sinister said:


> In my experience;
> 
> A Sikh?
> 
> A sikh is a person who once claimed to be a sikh, then for a while claimed not be a sikh and then claims to be sikh again after further thought and evaluation.



I* got it, what other word you can use for it, let me think, evolution of Sikh Soul?
Idea is out put of practical and " must needed" experience. Thank you.
*


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2008)

pk70,

I knew that I was really a Sikh when I started dreaming about Sikhs. If a person is someone actually known to me, my sister or husband or mother, in my dreams they are the same as in real life. But in dreams where there are projects involving many people they are all Sikhs. Men with beards and turbans, kirpan. Women in chunnis' and braids. People unknown to you in dreams are projections from yourself. So the whole nine yards.


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## Sinister (Jul 21, 2008)

there are no shortcuts, a sikh becomes a sikh once they have completed these evolutionary steps.

The people who have never doubted, have never lived at all.

cheers bud


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 21, 2008)

i sometimes dream of being lost in Amazon

am i an Anaconda?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 21, 2008)

Denial is the greatest confirmation


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> pk70,
> 
> I knew that I was really a Sikh when I started dreaming about Sikhs. If a person is someone actually known to me, my sister or husband or mother, in my dreams they are the same as in real life. But in dreams where there are projects involving many people they are all Sikhs. Men with beards and turbans, kirpan. Women in chunnis' and braids. People unknown to you in dreams are projections from yourself. So the whole nine yards.




*After reading Sinister ji's, yours comments I feel, my clan is getting bigger*.:happy:


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 21, 2008)

> "Ashok snapped, he slapped him, such strong emotions he harbors for Guru Ji."


This story reminds me of something I heard about.  There was a female diksha swami who gave shaktipat initiations who was being greeted by lines of devotees at a particular ashram.  One lady in the line was showing clear signs of imbalance, possibly mental illness, possibly kundalini kriyas.  But anyway, she was acting weird and saying weird things.  When she got up to this lady guru, with a serene smile on her face, the swami suddenly slapped the woman.  Keeping the smile and serene look, several times the swami slapped the imbalanced lady.  I know this story second-hand, and the person who told it to me had seen this lady at temple a lot.  She said afterwards the lady got better and better and seems completely normal now.  Sometimes a guru, or even our Satguruji Maharaj will act in ways that don't seem to make sense, but the needed lesson or adjustment will take place.  The answer would be in the reaction and/or change in Ashok whether it was krodh on part of your friend, or actually Divine guidance for his spiritual development and breaking through blocks.  Either could be the case. 




> I have a circle of friends who are very much into Gurbani, good people but rarely feel to be bound with a strict Sikh Maryada. As per their opinion, it is made by a group of people whose intention is to institutionalize a great religion and control it; their only guiding force is Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and literally that is what they do need and care and, they say that Sikhism is beyond boundaries.


Well, the truth is, I have come on a long journey with these kinds of questions.  To make the story short (honest), institutionalized groups are like the Christians say, "a den of vipers."  I don't even mean bad.  I mean really bad.  So if we know we have a structured set of rules, a delineated authority, positions of power, that such things are going to be abused.  It's human nature and it's an evil era when righteousness is falling down.

But if we stray completely from agreed upon definitions and standards, what are we then?

I will honestly say, and have felt for a long time but tried to just be quiet and conform, that I don't agree with a lot of definitions in the Sikh rehit maryada.  Just like any individual Jatha does, most keep the basics and then change or add somethings, such as keski rehit, sarbloh bibek, raagmala, Naam abhiyaas, sarbloh kara/kirpan.

I don't see these things as rituals so much as elective practices for a stricter sadhana.  Will such a strict sadhana make a person holy?  Not necessarily.  But just focusing on working on your inner nature and disciplining the 5 thieves is some kind of progress.  It's not for everyone.  Some don't need.  Some don't want.  And some would be spiritually detrimental for.  I don't believe that spiritual practice is a cookie cutter mold that you stamp indescriminately onto everyone like one-size fits all.

And far too often that's how we define spirituality, by trying to herd together everyone with like mind, and exclude every little difference.  And the honest truth is, I have been around truly strict and even over-disciplined people.  And everybody already knows about it, they aren't "nice."  Let me share a story:

I have an amritdhari friend whose oldest son cut his hair and took off kara to fit in and go to dental school.  He was never amritdhari.  Well being his mother, she stayed supportive of him, and loves him very much.  But she really didn't go for the shave and haircut.  She tried getting some amritdhari young people from Jatha x to come to her house for kirtan programs, encouraging them to "talk to my son."  "Can you call my son and just try to be a good influence on him?"  I heard many of these conversations for a couple of years.

No one ever called.  And apart from special kirtan programs, and despite being very close by, no one ever came over.  All the people she asked, and no one bothered to talk to her son.  After awhile, this same group of people just stopped saying fateh to us, my friend and I, and one day we'd had it.  So we decided never to do anything associated with that particular bunch.  Meanwhile, my friend started going to a gurdwara from Jatha z.  And Jatha z is a pretty relaxed bunch.  Nearly everyone there is a cutter, trimmer, dyer.  I mean just no visible strictness in keeping rehit AT ALL!

And something happened that really made an impression on all of us.  After a few years of dealing with Jatha x and Jatha y and ridiculously poor behavior which cannot even be mentioned, Jatha z, the relaxed bunch, did something completely unexpected.  No non-amritdhari person, let alone with cut and shaved kes would ever be allowed to do kirtan for the sangat.  But the bhai sahib from this Gurdwara, seeing her son looking completely estranged from the sangat started talking to him, calling him on the phone, and *shock* inviting him to play kirtan for the sangat.  And something I did not know, he could play beautifully with such longing and such piare.

Who is on the holy path?  Is it the people with strict rehit, harsh judgement, self-promotion, and indifference to others?  Is it the ones who do everything wrong by rehit, but do everything right by heart?

It has to be asked, because these definitions change everything.  It goes directly to the question "who is a Sikh?"  I think the shabad from Shri Sarbloh Granth which Namjap ji posted on another thread said everything.  *"Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my True Companion; Khalsa is my Perfect Master" *

A sikh is just someone who wants to belong to Guruji.  Anyone who bows his head and believes in Guru is a sikh.  But to become a Khalsa, I'm not even sure khande ki pahul is the path.  Thats the accepted answer.  I do believe in shaktipat deekhya because I've experienced it.  But it didn't make me a Khalsa.  It just gave me an experience.  The only power in having an experience is if it changes you for the better over time.  Anything less than that is just another sensuality.  And I know some people don't get any perceptible experience getting amritchukk.  It is making a commitment to live a dharmic life by certain standards.

But even in Gurbani, amrit isn't deekhya initiation, charan pahul or khande ki pahul.


ਖੋਟੇ ਖਰੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ 
khottae kharae thudhh aap oupaaeae ||
You Yourself created the counterfeit and the genuine.  

ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਖੇ ਲੋਕ ਸਬਾਏ ॥ 
thudhh aapae parakhae lok sabaaeae ||
You Yourself appraise all people. 

ਖਰੇ ਪਰਖਿ ਖਜਾਨੈ ਪਾਇਹਿ ਖੋਟੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥ 
kharae parakh khajaanai paaeihi khottae bharam bhulaavaniaa ||6||
You appraise the true, and place them in Your Treasury; You consign the false to wander in delusion. ||6||

ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖਾ ਕਿਉ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ॥ 
kio kar vaekhaa kio saalaahee ||
How can I behold You? How can I praise You?

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹੀ ॥ 
gur parasaadhee sabadh salaahee ||
By Guru's Grace, I praise You through the Word of the Shabad. 

ਤੇਰੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵਸੈ ਤੂੰ ਭਾਣੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥ 
thaerae bhaanae vich anmrith vasai thoon bhaanai anmrith peeaavaniaa ||7||
In Your Sweet Will, the Amrit is found; by Your Will, You inspire us to drink in this Amrit. ||7

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਬਦੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
anmrith sabadh anmrith har baanee ||
The Shabad is Amrit; the Lord's Bani is Amrit.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ 
sathigur saeviai ridhai samaanee ||
Serving the True Guru, it permeates the heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 119​


ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਚਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
anmrith bachan sathigur kee baanee jo bolai so mukh anmrith paavai ||2||
The Words of the True Guru's Teachings are Ambrosial Nectar; this Amrit trickles into the mouth of the one who chants them. ||2||

ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਵੈ ॥ 
niramal naam jith mail n laagai guramath naam japai liv laavai ||
Immaculate is the Naam, which cannot be stained by filth. Through the Guru's Teachings, chant the Naam with love.
~SGGS Ji p. 494​


ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥ 
jath paahaaraa dhheeraj suniaar ||
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥ 
aharan math vaedh hathheeaar ||
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.  

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥ 
bho khalaa agan thap thaao ||
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat. 

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥ 
bhaanddaa bhaao anmrith thith dtaal ||
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name, 

ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥ 
gharreeai sabadh sachee ttakasaal ||
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.
~SGGS Ji p. 8
​


ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ 
oulattiou kamal breham beechaar ||
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.  

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥ 
anmrith dhhaar gagan dhas dhuaar ||
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.
~SGGS Ji p. 153​




> The most recent proposal to revise the Indian Gurdwara Act (now under review) would change this definition eliminating item *"i." belief in One Immortal Being. *That of course changes everything and many view this as a blatant political tactic by Badal and his associates on SGPC.




What if that "One immortal being" is itself an incomplete concept as it stands defined by SGPC.  And what if it alludes to a deeper meaning of the Supreme incomprehensible nirgun behind all forms, who pervades all forms, including devtas?  What if it means that the true nature of the creation, of our atma _is_ the Paramatman?  If the sansaaric world is illusion of duality and three gunas and Maya, and every one of the created beings is an illusion like a shadow obstructing the light, and once the light shines, the shadows fade?  What if the Immortal One is something we all merge and become One with, the true Inner Self, Parabraahma.  Would it hurt anything to clarify the definition which causes people to think there is a monotheistic God existing in isolation rather than a Oneness which includes everything that is?  

What does it say about authoritative definitions that might actually be in conflict with someone's interpretation of Gurbani?  



ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤ+ਹੀ ॥ 
sehas thav nain nan nain hehi thohi ko sehas moorath nanaa eaek thuohee ||
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥ 
sehas padh bimal nan eaek padh gandhh bin sehas thav gandhh eiv chalath mohee ||2||
You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2||

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
sabh mehi joth joth hai soe ||
Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.

ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
this dhai chaanan sabh mehi chaanan hoe ||
By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all.
~SGGS Ji p. 13
​

ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੯॥ 
aadh aneel anaadh anaahath jug jug eaeko vaes ||29||
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ 
eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan ||
The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥ 
eik sansaaree eik bhanddaaree eik laaeae dheebaan ||
One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.

ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥ 
jiv this bhaavai thivai chalaavai jiv hovai furamaan ||
He makes things happen according to the Pleasure of His Will. Such is His Celestial Order.
~SGGS Ji p. 7​


ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ 
shhia ghar shhia gur shhia oupadhaes ||
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ 
gur gur eaeko vaes anaek ||1||
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 12​


ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਜਿਉ ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਯਹ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ॥ 
mrig thrisanaa jio jag rachanaa yeh dhaekhahu ridhai bichaar ||
The created world is like an illusion, a mirage - see this, and reflect upon it in your mind.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਜੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਤ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਹੋਤ ਉਧਾਰ ॥੨॥੨॥ 
kahu naanak bhaj raam naam nith jaa thae hoth oudhhaar ||2||2||
Says Nanak, vibrate forever the Name of the Lord, which shall deliver you. ||2||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 536​




> You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, *incarnation* or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour...
> 
> You must not associate with a Sikh who had uncut hair earlier and has cut it or a Sikh who smokes.
> k. Piercing of nose or ears for wearing ornaments is forbidden for Sikh men and women.
> ...


So close examination of the SGPC rehit maryada and you can see it's intended to isolate the amritdharis from everyone else.  I can understand it's purpose.  But I don't think in every circumstance, that's the best choice.  Sometimes people need your friendliness, your welcome, your example.  So how would someone reconcile the correctness of religious authority and institutions which promote their own interpretations of Gurbani, but that you personal feel are in conflict with it?  I don't advocate worship of the avtaars, but we are using their Naams to sing Kirtan of the Lords's praise, because Gurbani shows they are sargun avtaara of the nirgun Lord.  So wouldn't this directly conflict with SGPC Rehit Maryada?


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ *ਅਵਤਾਰ* ਵਰੋ ॥ 
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar *avathaar* varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the *Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.*
~SGGS Ji . 1359​


ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra. 

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.

*ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ* ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
*dhas avathaaree* raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
*The ten incarnations*, and Rama the king, came into being.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਲਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੫॥ 
guramath guramath guramath dhhiaavehi har gal mil mael milaavaigo ||5||
Those who meditate on the Guru's Teachings, the Guru's Instructions, the Guru's Wisdom, are united in the Lord's Union; He hugs them close in His Embrace. ||5||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈਗੋ ॥ 
guramukh naadh baedh hai guramukh gur parachai naam dhhiaavaigo ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad, The Guru's Word is the wisdom of the Vedas; coming in contact with the Guru, meditate on the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 1311​


ਗੁਨ ਨਾਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਅਨੰਦ ਬੇਦ ॥ 
gun naadh dhhun anandh baedh ||
The Glory of God is the Sound-current of the Naad, the Celestial Music of Bliss, and the Wisdom of the Vedas.

ਕਥਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
kathhath sunath mun janaa mil santh manddalee ||1|| rehaao ||
Speaking and listening, the silent sages and humble beings join together, in the Realm of the Saints. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 1322​

ਬਾਜੰਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦ ਬੀਣਾਂ ॥੧੩॥ 
baajanth naanak sabadh beenaan ||13||
O Nanak, the musical instrument of the Word of the Shabad vibrates and resounds within. ||13||  

ਕਹੰਤ ਬੇਦਾ ਗੁਣੰਤ ਗੁਨੀਆ ਸੁਣੰਤ ਬਾਲਾ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰਾ ॥ 
kehanth baedhaa gunanth guneeaa sunanth baalaa bahu bidhh prakaaraa ||
The Vedas preach and recount God's Glories; people hear them by various ways and means. 

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੰਤ ਸੁਬਿਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲਾ ॥ 
dhrirranth subidhiaa har har kirapaalaa ||
The Merciful Lord, Har, Har, implants spiritual wisdom within.
~SGGS Ji p. 1355​


ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ 
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350​




> Chronology of Separation:
> 1879: Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha was founded to counter the activities of Sanatan Singh Sabha, which advocated the view that Sikhism is a part of Hinduism.
> 1882: Max Arthur Macauliffe was appointed Deputy Commissioner in Punjab. He played a leading role in promoting actions that would lead to separation of Sikhism from the Hindu society and removal of the percieved Hindu influence from Sikh practices and texts.
> 1889: Kahan Singh Nabha writes "Hum Hindu Nahin".
> ...


If you look closely at the timeline, right after the collapse of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Kingdom, the Sanatan Nihang Jatha, which had been the leading Sikh Misls and one of the Panj Takhts became marginalized in an obvious power struggle, Mahants and Udasis were thrown own of Gurdwaras, and the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha reform defined modern Sikhism according to it's best scholars, and in line with their viewpoints.


~Bhul chak maaf


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> Denial is the greatest confirmation



amarsanghera Ji

*If an amritdhari Sikh denies being Sikh, rest are history, confirmation becomes immaterial.
* 
i sometimes dream of being lost in Amazon

am i an Anaconda?    

*Not exactly, because you have different goa*l


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

A Sikh is just someone who wants to belong to Guruji.  Anyone who bows his head and believes in Guru is a Sikh. But to become a Khalsa, I'm not even sure khande ki pahul is the path. Thats the accepted answer. I do believe in shaktipat deekhya because I've experienced it. But it didn't make me a Khalsa. It just gave me an experience. The only power in having an experience is if it changes you for the better over time. Anything less than that is just another sensuality. And I know some people don't get any perceptible experience getting amritchukk. It is making a commitment to live a dharmic life by certain standards.

*See, it comes down to living( rehni) others become aids to boot up the progression. I took amrit, nothing happened much but since Gurbani took seriously, overhauling started, the fragments of all negativity still show and say" still we are here", battle goes on.*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 21, 2008)

there is a beautiful poem by Tagore

The lantern which I carry in my hand makes enemy of the darkness of the far'ther road. 
And this wayside becomes a terror to me, 
where even the flowering tree frowns like a spectre of scowling menace; 
and the sound of my own steps comes back to me in the echo of muffled suspicion. 
Therefore I pray for thy own morning light, 
when the far and the near will kiss each other and death and life will be one in love.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 21, 2008)

I CAST my own shadow upon my path, because I have a lamp that has not been lighted.


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## Astroboy (Jul 21, 2008)

During the life of Guru Arjan Sahib, a certain family of devotees who were talented in singing the holy scriptures approached the Guru for some financial help to cover the cost of their daughter's marriage. Guru Arian said, "All right, it will be given." They waited for some days, but nothing further was said; so once again they faced the Guru and said, "Maharaj, we do not want very much; so if each sikh [i.e. disciple] could give one taka [two pice-about a third of a cent] that would be enough." Guru Arjan replied, "All right, tomorrow we will see." The days passed by without further development, and again they approached their Guru, saying, "Please do something quickly, for the date of the marriage is upon us." The Guru said, "All right, tomorrow I will give." When they came to Him the following day, He took out four and a half takas and gave it to them. They looked at the small amount in surprise and said, "Maharaj, what is this? You have such a huge gathering of disciples, and yet you have given us only four and a half takas." Guru Arjan replied, "You said you wanted one taka per Sikh. The first Sikh was Guru Nanak, the second was Guru Angad, the third was Guru Amar Das, the fourth was Guru Ramdas, and, well, the half taka is for me-I am only half a Sikh-and that makes a total of four and a half takas." It was a sharp lesson to those who had thought to be clever and a wonderful example of the humility of Guru Arjan.
  What then is the criterion of a Sikh? Guru is a Sikh-Sikh is a Guru; both give the same teaching. He Who becomes a True Disciple becomes a Guru-from server to Master. The family of singers did not appreciate their Guru's lesson and they began to demur, saying, "Who would have known of Guru Nanak but for our singing?" A true Sikh can tolerate anything but an attempt to defame the Guru, and showing His displeasure Guru Arjan said, "Ail right, brothers, you can go." Others of His followers observed the Guru's anger and begged Him to forgive the offending persons. The Guru said, "All right, they will be forgiven when the mouths that have insulted will sincerely sing His praises."


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 21, 2008)

> Question: if Ashok is not a Sikh as per Sikh maryada, what is he?



 I have never personally bothered with debates as to definitions etc., but I think that many people have taken time to respond here and so shall I share what I have come to know...

 Definition's are ego's friendly companion's. With definition's the ego finds a place and pedestal upon which it can thrive. What is ego? It is *E*dging *G*od *O*ut as stated by an individual who has passed in north america. Whenever someone define's another person, they do not define that person by their own definition, rather they define themselves (their egoic self) as someone who needs to place labels upon another person.

 This is a rather gray area, because when it comes to distinguishing things in reality, for example a person who is American it helps to know their place of origin. But when 'American' becomes an egoic identification with a superficial sense of self, then its purpose is lost and the individual whom in their patriotic sense of self places themselves at the top of the world. Why is it that when American's define themselves as American they are proud that they are primarily responsible for much of the economical and destructive forces playing in the world. Why is it that American's feel 'they' will fulfill the manifest destiny, why is it that 'they' feel that 'others' are the enemy? WHy is it that people rarely question the definition of an American, but they question often the definition of a Sikh, which by its very nature is inclusive and humble compared to that of American? 'American Sikh' is almost a classical paradox. On one hand a power hungry materialistic definition that purports that it stands for freedom, and on the other hand a humble self inquisitive definition that is struggling for freedom. 

  All of this is a function or rather dysfunction of the mind, known as the ego. There is group ego, such as seen in national pride. Most of the world's atrocities have occurred by normal people who in times have become satan on earth. Examples include the various Genocides, Partition in India etc. Group think and mindlessness diffuses the responsibility of the individual to the group. This is known in research that has studied the diffusion of responsibility of self, and in legal courts a group of people can get away with murder so long as the Instigator is discovered. Interesting...
 Another level of ego, is the transient Role Playing ego. This is the level at which the mind needs to identify with a role to create a sense of self purpose. This is seen with the teenage child who plays nice and courteous in front of family, and is wild and ravenous with friends, and a disgruntled student at school. The ego feeds off of role playing, being sucked into the realities that each situation creates. Is it the environment that create's the person? No, it is the ego that identifies with the role. The ego will actively pursue it's self creation, and by identifying with that which continues to feed itself the ego pushes out rationality, discipline, and courtesy because it is bludgeoned with a sense of survival. The ego constantly adapts and feeds off these various roles. 
 Another state of the ego, is that of the individual and of their own experience of their mind. A person confined to a cell does not last long before mental health deteriorates. Why is this? When the ego is not fed, the mind creates a dual self. Thoughts of "you are worthless, you are all alone, no on loves you" are given to the host (human) to coax it into believing that happiness is 'out there somewhere' and to force the host to feed the ego in another manner. The ego is temporarily fed with anger, lust, and chasing of materialistic possessions. Take that person out of their cell now, and the ego will continue to feed upon the environment of the host. It will believe that "my happiness is in her/him, without them I will die", when in reality the ego will easily feed off another person just as easily. The ego always attacks the host, because it needs to be fed to survive. The ego will always Edge God Out, because it becomes thought, and the thoughts that it is is thoughts of self identification, and thoughts of anger, lust, materialism, jealousy, and others... 

 In rare moments of existence the ego is pushed out of the way. This is due to a developing consciousness within the human. During primitive times when survival was important, the human existed almost purely out of ego. Fortunately this can be summed as thus " In the distant past, sheer necessity brought us together in first chakra consciousness. Think of the pioneer couple on the wagon train traveling across the country to start their own homestead. Their relationship was one of survival: work the farm, till the field and have children to help with the non-stop physical workload. Fast forward to the Victorian era. The Victorians: the angst and drama, love from the wrong side of the tracks (Romeo and Juliet).  This is second chakra consciousness; coming together from a longing to merge with another human being, passion, fantasy, no boundaries and very messy.
 Third Chakra consciousness is all about personal power and the little ‘s’ self. Dynamics of submission and domination prevail. Relationships become more like business arrangements. You do this for me, and I will do this for you. Secretly, we may view our partner as our enemy and spend our days just waiting to be betrayed."
Although this describes a personal level of human consciousness, it can be applied to the greater scale as well. We can see that ego is primarily at the center, but necessarily for human survival. The ego can not survive without the host so it is necessary for the host to survive. Yet, the host could easily survive without the ego if and when there was something to replace it. 


 What is there to replace it? Gurbani says that amongst millions, rare is that individual who has Love of the Lord in their heart. Very few and rare individuals' realized and accepted the True reality in their lifetimes, and here we are today attempting to discern their message...


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## Randip Singh (Jul 21, 2008)

PAGE 286

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥ 
असटपदी ॥ 
Asatpaḏī. 
Ashtapadee: 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਕਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ॥ 
सतिगुरु सिख की करै प्रतिपाल ॥ 
Saṯgur sikẖ kī karai parṯipāl. 
The True Guru cherishes His Sikh. 

ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ 
सेवक कउ गुरु सदा दइआल ॥ 
Sėvak ka&shy;o gur saḏā ḏa&shy;i&shy;āl. 
The Guru is always merciful to His servant. 

ਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਲੁ ਹਿਰੈ ॥ 
सिख की गुरु दुरमति मलु हिरै ॥ 
Sikẖ kī gur ḏurmaṯ mal hirai. 
The Guru washes away the filth of the evil intellect of His Sikh. 

ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥ 
गुर बचनी हरि नामु उचरै ॥ 
Gur bacẖnī har nām ucẖrai. 
Through the Guru's Teachings, he chants the Lord's Name. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੈ ॥ 
सतिगुरु सिख के बंधन काटै ॥ 
Saṯgur sikẖ kė banḏẖan kātai. 
The True Guru cuts away the bonds of His Sikh. 

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਹਾਟੈ ॥ 
गुर का सिखु बिकार ते हाटै ॥ 
Gur kā sikẖ bikār ṯė hātai. 
The Sikh of the Guru abstains from evil deeds. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ 
सतिगुरु सिख कउ नाम धनु देइ ॥ 
Saṯgur sikẖ ka&shy;o nām ḏẖan ḏė&shy;ė. 
The True Guru gives His Sikh the wealth of the Naam. 

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਹੇ ॥ 
गुर का सिखु वडभागी हे ॥ 
Gur kā sikẖ vadbẖāgī hė. 
The Sikh of the Guru is very fortunate. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕਾ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਸਵਾਰੈ ॥ 
सतिगुरु सिख का हलतु पलतु सवारै ॥ 
Saṯgur sikẖ kā halaṯ palaṯ savārai. 
The True Guru arranges this world and the next for His Sikh. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਜੀਅ ਨਾਲਿ ਸਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ 
नानक सतिगुरु सिख कउ जीअ नालि समारै ॥१॥ 
Nānak saṯgur sikẖ ka&shy;o jī&shy;a nāl samārai. ||1|| 
O Nanak, with the fullness of His heart, the True Guru mends His Sikh. ||1|| 

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੋ ਰਹੈ ॥ 
गुर कै ग्रिहि सेवकु जो रहै ॥ 
Gur kai garihi sėvak jo rahai. 
That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru's household, 

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਹੈ ॥ 
गुर की आगिआ मन महि सहै ॥ 
Gur kī āgi&shy;ā man meh sahai. 
is to obey the Guru's Commands with all his mind. 

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਜਨਾਵੈ ॥ 
आपस कउ करि कछु न जनावै ॥ 
Āpas ka&shy;o kar kacẖẖ na janāvai. 
He is not to call attention to himself in any way. 

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਦ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ 
हरि हरि नामु रिदै सद धिआवै ॥ 
Har har nām riḏai saḏ ḏẖi&shy;āvai. 
He is to meditate constantly within his heart on the Name of the Lord. 

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ 
मनु बेचै सतिगुर कै पासि ॥ 
Man bėcẖai saṯgur kai pās. 
One who sells his mind to the True Guru - 

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
तिसु सेवक के कारज रासि ॥ 
Ŧis sėvak kė kāraj rās. 
that humble servant's affairs are resolved. 

ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ 
सेवा करत होइ निहकामी ॥ 
Sėvā karaṯ ho&shy;ė nihkāmī. 
One who performs selfless service, without thought of reward, 

ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ 
तिस कउ होत परापति सुआमी ॥ 
Ŧis ka&shy;o hoṯ parāpaṯ su&shy;āmī. 
shall attain his Lord and Master. 
ਅਪਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ 
अपनी क्रिपा जिसु आपि करेइ ॥ 
Apnī kirpā jis āp karė&shy;i. 
He Himself grants His Grace; 

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਲੇਇ ॥੨॥ 
नानक सो सेवकु गुर की मति लेइ ॥२॥ 
Nānak so sėvak gur kī maṯ lė&shy;ė. ||2|| 
O Nanak, that selfless servant lives the Guru's Teachings. ||2|| 

ਬੀਸ ਬਿਸਵੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ 
बीस बिसवे गुर का मनु मानै ॥ 
Bīs bisvė gur kā man mānai. 
One who obeys the Guru's Teachings one hundred per cent - 

ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ 
सो सेवकु परमेसुर की गति जानै ॥ 
So sėvak parmėsur kī gaṯ jānai. 
that selfless servant comes to know the state of the Transcendent Lord. 

ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
सो सतिगुरु जिसु रिदै हरि नाउ ॥ 
So saṯgur jis riḏai har nā&shy;o. 
The True Guru's Heart is filled with the Name of the Lord. 

ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ 
अनिक बार गुर कउ बलि जाउ ॥ 
Anik bār gur ka&shy;o bal jā&shy;o. 
So many times, I am a sacrifice to the Guru. 

ਸਰਬ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ॥ 
सरब निधान जीअ का दाता ॥ 
Sarab niḏẖān jī&shy;a kā ḏāṯā. 
He is the treasure of everything, the Giver of life. 

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ 
आठ पहर पारब्रहम रंगि राता ॥ 
Āṯẖ pahar pārbarahm rang rāṯā. 
Twenty-four hours a day, He is imbued with the Love of the Supreme Lord God. 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਨੁ ਜਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥ 
ब्रहम महि जनु जन महि पारब्रहमु ॥ 
Barahm meh jan jan meh pārbarahm. 
The servant is in God, and God is in the servant. 

ਏਕਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਭਰਮੁ ॥ 
एकहि आपि नही कछु भरमु ॥ 
Ėkeh āp nahī kacẖẖ bẖaram. 
He Himself is One - there is no doubt about this. 

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਨਪ ਲਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ 
सहस सिआनप लइआ न जाईऐ ॥ 
Sahas si&shy;ānap la&shy;i&shy;ā na jā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
By thousands of clever tricks, He is not found. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਬਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੩॥ 
नानक ऐसा गुरु बडभागी पाईऐ ॥३॥ 
Nānak aisā gur badbẖāgī pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. ||3|| 
O Nanak, such a Guru is obtained by the greatest good fortune. ||3|| 

ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪੇਖਤ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥ 
सफल दरसनु पेखत पुनीत ॥ 
Safal ḏarsan pėkẖaṯ punīṯ. 
Blessed is His Darshan; receiving it, one is purified. 

ਪਰਸਤ ਚਰਨ ਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰੀਤਿ ॥ 
परसत चरन गति निरमल रीति ॥ 
Parsaṯ cẖaran gaṯ nirmal rīṯ. 
Touching His Feet, one's conduct and lifestyle become pure. 

ਭੇਟਤ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਮ ਗੁਨ ਰਵੇ ॥ 
भेटत संगि राम गुन रवे ॥ 
Bẖėtaṯ sang rām gun ravė. 
Abiding in His Company, one chants the Lord's Praise, 

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਗਵੇ ॥ 
पारब्रहम की दरगह गवे ॥ 
Pārbarahm kī ḏargeh gavė. 
and reaches the Court of the Supreme Lord God. 

ਸੁਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਚਨ ਕਰਨ ਆਘਾਨੇ ॥ 
सुनि करि बचन करन आघाने ॥ 
Sun kar bacẖan karan āgẖānė. 
Listening to His Teachings, one's ears are satisfied. 

ਮਨਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਆਤਮ ਪਤੀਆਨੇ ॥ 
मनि संतोखु आतम पतीआने ॥ 
Man sanṯokẖ āṯam paṯī&shy;ānė. 
The mind is contented, and the soul is fulfilled. 

ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਓ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ॥ 
पूरा गुरु अख्यओ जा का मंत्र ॥ 
Pūrā gur akẖ&shy;ya&shy;o jā kā manṯar. 
The Guru is perfect; His Teachings are everlasting. 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਪੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਸੰਤ ॥ 
अम्रित द्रिसटि पेखै होइ संत ॥ 
Amriṯ ḏarisat pėkẖai ho&shy;ė sanṯ. 
Beholding His Ambrosial Glance, one becomes saintly. 

ਗੁਣ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
गुण बिअंत कीमति नही पाइ ॥ 
Guṇ bi&shy;anṯ kīmaṯ nahī pā&shy;ė. 
Endless are His virtuous qualities; His worth cannot be appraised. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੪॥ 
नानक जिसु भावै तिसु लए मिलाइ ॥४॥ 
Nānak jis bẖāvai ṯis la&shy;ė milā&shy;ė. ||4|| 
O Nanak, one who pleases Him is united with Him. ||4|| 

ਜਿਹਬਾ ਏਕ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ॥ 
जिहबा एक उसतति अनेक ॥ 
Jihbā ėk usṯaṯ anėk. 
The tongue is one, but His Praises are many. 

ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ 
सति पुरख पूरन बिबेक ॥ 
Saṯ purakẖ pūran bibėk. 
The True Lord, of perfect perfection,. 

ਕਾਹੂ ਬੋਲ ਨ ਪਹੁਚਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ॥ 
काहू बोल न पहुचत प्रानी ॥ 
Kāhū bol na pahucẖaṯ parānī. 
no speech can take the mortal to Him. 

ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ॥ 
अगम अगोचर प्रभ निरबानी ॥ 
Agam agocẖar parabẖ nirbānī. 
God is Inaccessible, Incomprehensible, balanced in the state of Nirvaanaa. 

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ॥ 
निराहार निरवैर सुखदाई ॥ 
Nirāhār nirvair sukẖ&shy;ḏā&shy;ī. 
He is not sustained by food; He has no hatred or vengeance; He is the Giver of peace. 

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
ता की कीमति किनै न पाई ॥ 
Ŧā kī kīmaṯ kinai na pā&shy;ī. 
No one can estimate His worth. 

ਅਨਿਕ ਭਗਤ ਬੰਦਨ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ॥ 
अनिक भगत बंदन नित करहि ॥ 
Anik bẖagaṯ banḏan niṯ karahi. 
Countless devotees continually bow in reverence to Him. 

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ॥ 
चरन कमल हिरदै सिमरहि ॥ 
Cẖaran kamal hirḏai simrahi. 
In their hearts, they meditate on His Lotus Feet. 

ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪਨੇ ॥ 
सद बलिहारी सतिगुर अपने ॥ 
Saḏ balihārī saṯgur apnė. 
Nanak is forever a sacrifice to the True Guru; 

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਐਸਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਪਨੇ ॥੫॥ 
नानक जिसु प्रसादि ऐसा प्रभु जपने ॥५॥ 
Nānak jis parsāḏ aisā parabẖ japnė. ||5|| 
by His Grace, he meditates on God. ||5|| 

ਇਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
इहु हरि रसु पावै जनु कोइ ॥ 
Ih har ras pāvai jan ko&shy;ė. 
Only a few obtain this ambrosial essence of the Lord's Name. 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਅਮਰੁ ਸੋ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
अम्रितु पीवै अमरु सो होइ ॥ 
Amriṯ pīvai amar so ho&shy;ė. 
Drinking in this Nectar, one becomes immortal. 

ਉਸੁ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਦੇ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ 
उसु पुरख का नाही कदे बिनास ॥ 
Us purakẖ kā nāhī kaḏė binās. 
That person never dies, 

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੇ ਗੁਨਤਾਸ ॥ 
जा कै मनि प्रगटे गुनतास ॥ 
Jā kai man pargatė gunṯās. 
whose mind is illuminated by the treasure of excellence. 

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਇ ॥ 
आठ पहर हरि का नामु लेइ ॥ 
Āṯẖ pahar har kā nām lė&shy;ė. 
Twenty-four hours a day, he takes the Name of the Lord. 

ਸਚੁ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਦੇਇ ॥ 
सचु उपदेसु सेवक कउ देइ ॥ 
Sacẖ upḏės sėvak ka&shy;o ḏė&shy;ė. 
The Lord gives true instruction to His servant. 

ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਲੇਪੁ ॥ 
मोह माइआ कै संगि न लेपु ॥ 
Moh mā&shy;i&shy;ā kai sang na lėp. 
He is not polluted by emotional attachment to Maya. 

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ॥ 
मन महि राखै हरि हरि एकु ॥ 
Man meh rākẖai har har ėk. 
In his mind, he cherishes the One Lord, Har, Har. 

ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਦੀਪਕ ਪਰਗਾਸੇ ॥ 
अंधकार दीपक परगासे ॥ 
Anḏẖkār ḏīpak pargāsė. 
In the pitch darkness, a lamp shines forth. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਰਮ ਮੋਹ ਦੁਖ ਤਹ ਤੇ ਨਾਸੇ ॥੬॥ 
नानक भरम मोह दुख तह ते नासे ॥६॥ 
Nānak bẖaram moh ḏukẖ ṯah ṯė nāsė. ||6|| 
O Nanak, doubt, emotional attachment and pain are erased. ||6|| 

ਤਪਤਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਠਾਢਿ ਵਰਤਾਈ ॥ 
तपति माहि ठाढि वरताई ॥ 
Ŧapaṯ māhi ṯẖādẖ varṯā&shy;ī. 
In the burning heat, a soothing coolness prevails. 

ਅਨਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਦੁਖ ਨਾਠੇ ਭਾਈ ॥ 
अनदु भइआ दुख नाठे भाई ॥ 
Anaḏ bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā ḏukẖ nāṯẖė bẖā&shy;ī. 
Happiness ensues and pain departs, O Siblings of Destiny. 

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕੇ ਮਿਟੇ ਅੰਦੇਸੇ ॥ 
जनम मरन के मिटे अंदेसे ॥ 
Janam maran kė mitė anḏėsė. 
The fear of birth and death is dispelled, 

ਸਾਧੂ ਕੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਉਪਦੇਸੇ ॥ 
साधू के पूरन उपदेसे ॥ 
Sāḏẖū kė pūran upḏėsė. 
by the perfect Teachings of the Holy Saint. 

ਭਉ ਚੂਕਾ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਹੋਇ ਬਸੇ ॥ 
भउ चूका निरभउ होइ बसे ॥ 
Bẖa&shy;o cẖūkā nirbẖa&shy;o ho&shy;ė basė. 
Fear is lifted, and one abides in fearlessness. 

ਸਗਲ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਖੈ ਨਸੇ ॥ 
सगल बिआधि मन ते खै नसे ॥ 
Sagal bi&shy;āḏẖ man ṯė kẖai nasė. 
All evils are dispelled from the mind. 

ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ 
जिस का सा तिनि किरपा धारी ॥ 
Jis kā sā ṯin kirpā ḏẖārī. 
He takes us into His favor as His own. 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥ 
साधसंगि जपि नामु मुरारी ॥ 
Sāḏẖsang jap nām murārī. 
In the Company of the Holy, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord. 

ਥਿਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਚੂਕੇ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਗਵਨ ॥ 
थिति पाई चूके भ्रम गवन ॥ 
Thiṯ pā&shy;ī cẖūkė bẖaram gavan. 
Stability is attained; doubt and wandering cease, 

ਸੁਨਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ॥੭॥ 
सुनि नानक हरि हरि जसु स्रवन ॥७॥ 
Sun Nānak har har jas sarvan. ||7|| 
O Nanak, listening with one's ears to the Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||7|| 

ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਸਰਗੁਨੁ ਭੀ ਓਹੀ ॥ 
निरगुनु आपि सरगुनु भी ओही ॥ 
Nirgun āp sargun bẖī ohī. 
He Himself is absolute and unrelated; He Himself is also involved and related. 

ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਮੋਹੀ ॥ 
कला धारि जिनि सगली मोही ॥ 
Kalā ḏẖār jin saglī mohī. 
Manifesting His power, He fascinates the entire world. 

ਅਪਨੇ ਚਰਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ 
अपने चरित प्रभि आपि बनाए ॥ 
Apnė cẖariṯ parabẖ āp banā&shy;ė. 
God Himself sets His play in motion. 

ਅਪੁਨੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਏ ॥ 
अपुनी कीमति आपे पाए ॥ 
Apunī kīmaṯ āpė pā&shy;ė. 
Only He Himself can estimate His worth. 

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
हरि बिनु दूजा नाही कोइ ॥ 
Har bin ḏūjā nāhī ko&shy;ė. 
There is none, other than the Lord. 

ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
सरब निरंतरि एको सोइ ॥ 
Sarab niranṯar ėko so&shy;ė. 
Permeating all, He is the One. 

ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ॥ 
ओति पोति रविआ रूप रंग ॥ 
Oṯ poṯ ravi&shy;ā rūp rang. 
Through and through, He pervades in form and color. 

ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ਸਾਧ ਕੈ ਸੰਗ ॥ 
भए प्रगास साध कै संग ॥ 
Bẖa&shy;ė pargās sāḏẖ kai sang. 
He is revealed in the Company of the Holy.  
ਰਚਿ ਰਚਨਾ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ 
रचि रचना अपनी कल धारी ॥ 
Racẖ racẖnā apnī kal ḏẖārī. 
Having created the creation, He infuses His own power into it. 

ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੮॥੧੮॥ 
अनिक बार नानक बलिहारी ॥८॥१८॥ 
Anik bār Nānak balihārī. ||8||18|| 
So many times, Nanak is a sacrifice to Him. ||8||18||


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

*(quote cunuck Singh)

The essence has been described, participants are many a few obtain as per Gurbani, then who are the rest of the participants?
Ponder over, answer about Ashok ,me and many others will be clear.:idea:*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 21, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *(quote cunuck Singh)
> 
> The essence has been described, participants are many a few obtain as per Gurbani, then who are the rest of the participants?
> Ponder over, answer about Ashok ,me and many others will be clear.:idea:*



Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand what is being stated in this post.


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

Canuck Singh said:


> Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand what is being stated in this post.




*Very Very sorry for creating the confusion, in a hurry I forgot to post quot which I consider " an essence" from you*r *post*
 ( quote Canuck singh Ji) What is there to replace it? Gurbani says that amongst millions, rare is that individual who has Love of the Lord in their heart. Very few and rare individuals' realized and accepted the True reality in their lifetimes, and here we are today attempting to discern their message...    
r quote. Kindly reread my comments after reading your comments I called essance, here it is.

*Hope now you will understand my comment in context of your comments. Sorry::*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 21, 2008)

TBH still I do not understand 


> Yet, the host could easily survive without the ego if and when there was something to replace it. What is there to replace it? Gurbani says that amongst millions, rare is that individual who has Love of the Lord in their heart. Very few and rare individuals' realized and accepted the True reality in their lifetimes, and here we are today attempting to discern their message...



then...


> * The essence has been described, participants are many a few obtain as per Gurbani, then who are the rest of the participants?
> Ponder over, answer about Ashok ,me and many others will be clear.:idea:*



What is the essence that has been described? Who are the participants who "are many" and "a few obtain as per Gurbani"? 
I also wonder 'then who are the rest of the  participants?"

Once this is a wee bit more clear perhaps I can restate whatever I stated that was confusing in the first place?


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

*essence =about the ones who would walk on Guru path from you quoted canucksingh Ji*, here it is"Gurbani says that amongst millions, rare is that individual who has Love of the Lord in their heart. Very few and rare individuals' realized and accepted the True reality in their lifetimes, and here we are today attempting to discern their message..."
*participants= all who like to walk but are not serious*, *or not successful*
*a few= who realize and accept the true reality in their life times*
* calnuck singh Ji, nothing was confusing what you stated, I just quickly tried to word it in condensed statement. I feel, we are participants, are  not worth to be considered like those "a few", if we were, story would have been different. Guru ji was very much aware about this truth too; the truth of " a few who will realize the reality" We are just struggling to comprehend only Guru message, the next step  seems  far away.....again forgive me if any confusion occured due to my wording. Thanks for bearing with me.*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 22, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *essence =about the ones who would walk on Guru path from you quoted canucksingh Ji*, here it is"Gurbani says that amongst millions, rare is that individual who has Love of the Lord in their heart. Very few and rare individuals' realized and accepted the True reality in their lifetimes, and here we are today attempting to discern their message..."
> *participants= all who like to walk but are not serious*, *or not successful*
> *a few= who realize and accept the true reality in their life times*
> * calnuck singh Ji, nothing was confusing what you stated, I just quickly tried to word it in condensed statement. I feel, we are participants, are  not worth to be considered like those "a few", if we were, story would have been different. Guru ji was very much aware about this truth too; the truth of " a few who will realize the reality" We are just struggling to comprehend only Guru message, the next step  seems  far away.....again forgive me if any confusion occured due to my wording. Thanks for bearing with me.*



 That makes sense,  and at least what I said came out clearly.

 Indeed, 'a few'. oh so very few...

 All people of all faith's believe labelling themselves as religious is like one free trip to some form of heaven... when 'we' are not understanding of the True reality...

"raj na chahoo, mukat na chahoo, man preet charan kamalarey"

 If we contemplate for a moment, all those who have come before us, apart from the few Saints and Bhagats, and the Guru's how many have truly lived Inspiring lives in such a way?


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## pk70 (Jul 22, 2008)

*Here are some Guru Bachan taken from Randip Singh ji's quote; we as Sikhs should grade honestly ourselves on the basis of Guru Bachan, it will be vey helpful  for the battle we need to win against primal negative forces. Thanks Randip Singh ji for posting it.
*
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੋ ਰਹੈ ॥ 
गुर कै ग्रिहि सेवकु जो रहै ॥ 
Gur kai garihi sėvak jo rahai. 
That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru's household, 

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਹੈ ॥ 
गुर की आगिआ मन महि सहै ॥ 
Gur kī āgi*ā man meh sahai. 
is to obey the Guru's Commands with all his mind. 

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਜਨਾਵੈ ॥ 
आपस कउ करि कछु न जनावै ॥ 
Āpas ka*o kar kacẖẖ na janāvai. 
He is not to call attention to himself in any way. 

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਦ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ 
हरि हरि नामु रिदै सद धिआवै ॥ 
Har har nām riḏai saḏ ḏẖi*āvai. 
He is to meditate constantly within his heart on the Name of the Lord. 

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ 
मनु बेचै सतिगुर कै पासि ॥ 
Man bėcẖai saṯgur kai pās. 
One who sells his mind to the True Guru - 

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
तिसु सेवक के कारज रासि ॥ 
Ŧis sėvak kė kāraj rās. 
that humble servant's affairs are resolved. 

ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ 
सेवा करत होइ निहकामी ॥ 
Sėvā karaṯ ho*ė nihkāmī. 
One who performs selfless service, without thought of reward, 

ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ 
तिस कउ होत परापति सुआमी ॥ 
Ŧis ka*o hoṯ parāpaṯ su*āmī. 
shall attain his Lord and Master.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 22, 2008)

A blind man approached a wise man/saint/rishi for advise. He told him..i am always being knocked into by people at night as they cant see me......always carry  alantern at night...was the solution advised by the wise man....
But one night the blind man carrying  alighterd lantern was once again knocked into by another....you FOOL didnt you see me inspite of the light i am carrying....NO YOU are the FOOL shouted the other...I am  BLIND...and I am carrying a lighted lantern and yet you couldnt see it..

are we the BLIND...carrying lights for other blind ones....

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2008)

The blind leading the blind? An old saying -- but I can't remember where it comes from.


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## Jaspreet08 (Jul 23, 2008)

Lots of interesting issues here. 
A wise man once told me - you don't choose the Guru to be his Sikh. He chooses you. 

"When the disciple is ready, the teacher will appear."

-Jaspreet


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 24, 2008)

aad jio,
this is not about the "Blind" leading....anyone..blind or sighted...
Its about a "Blind" one carrying a light ( obviously for the sighted) to enabvle the sighted to avoid knocking into the blind carrier....but in this case the other one was also blind ( but also carrying a light so that the sighted wouldnt knock into him)...akin to a Blind man driving a Car with High Beam headlights on knocking into another car also driven by a blind man but having its headlights on. The Headlights are meant to WARN those who can SEE to avoid the car...!!! but since BOTH the drivers are BLIND..the headlights didnt make a difference...
My point is to highlight a so called "Amrtidharee" well versed with Gurbani/nitnem etc may be "blind" but having the misconception that he is carrying the light of Gurbani....we make the mistake of thinking that its our EYES that see...its actually the GYAAN/DHYAAN of the Creator that enables us to really" SEE"...

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 24, 2008)

what if the batteries run out?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 24, 2008)

batteries run out ?? he he he..good one that.

gyani jarnail singh:happy:


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2008)

Jios, Thank you for two good rejoinders.

I see what you mean Gyani Jarnail ji. 

And amarsanghera ji, when the batteries run out, looks like a big mess up ahead on the road. Naturally the "highway patrol" has to do an investigation and give the official spin to the situation.  This is followed by a string of newspaper articles in which everyone's explanation except the stories of the accident victims are restated 20 times. 

Thus giving more meaning to Gyani's conclusion: _we make the mistake of thinking that its our EYES that see...its actually the GYAAN/DHYAAN of the Creator that enables us to really" SEE"..._


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## pk70 (Jul 24, 2008)

( quote) Lots of interesting issues here. 
A wise man once told me - you don't choose the Guru to be his Sikh. He chooses you. 

"When the disciple is ready, the teacher will appear."

*-Jaspreet 08 Ji*
* Sorry to say that, to me, these are very impractical statements; there is another statement but a little practical one*
*“Seeking Guru is an initial step, looking to see a Guru is a crowd mentality because seekers seek, lookers just look and remain tied to their own minds. *
*How does one get ready for Guru and then Guru comes by” is it a day dreaming? Getting ready itself requires Guru.*
*For Sikhs, there is no space for choosing a Guru, in reality Guru is there well defined, problem is, do we listen to Guru and live what he says or just bow and go back to” business as usual”? I have seen pseudo religious men saying” Just doing all as per His Hukam, we are doing Guru Seva” Come on, is it His Hukam to flourish on others money and preach but don’t practice?  How long such people can keep be fooling others? All the time if there is no faith in the Guru, hypocrisy keeps rising till one totally loses conscious. Some talk about humbleness, goodness, preach against ego, greed, lust; however, they allow an element of all primal negative forces to blossom within, I call it a business scheme, real purpose is not given preference like helping others to come back to the Creator as Guru says” aap Jao awar ko japawo” Fear of law keeps many to stay straight, so does fear of God, from law, there are quick consequences , from God, things seem being put off, and life goes on.  I would like to share what I heard from some one who feels the basic facts Guru Nanak Ji preached are*



*To      contemplate on His Naam( Naam Japna)*
*work      hard based on righteous principles( Dharam dee Kirat Karni*
*Sharing       with all others what have ( wand      shakana)*
*To      win over lust, anger, attachment, greed and ego and cultivate truth,      contentment, tolerance and love in our soul, in other words a battle within is a must.*
 *Enlightened ones have shared their experiences, it is us who just say” balle Balle, Dhann, Dhann” then get back into the same quagmire  we were before due to our minds’ preferences Thanks for sharing your views though..*


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## Astroboy (Jul 24, 2008)

*Who is a Sikh?* A Sikh is a person who takes his spiritual guidance only from the Sikh Gurus; who believes in and remembers the one God (Simran), commonly referred to as Waheguru, at all times; believes in the equality of all beings and selfless service to humanity (Seva); believes in the protection of the weak (Kurbani); preservation of peace; the promotion of personal qualities of Sat (Truth); Daya (Compassion); Santokh (Contenment); Nimrata (Humility); and Pyare (Love); and who at all times constantly repels the inner five evils of Kam (Lust), Krodh (Rage), Lobh (Greed), Moh (Attachment) and Ahankar (Ego).


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## Jaspreet08 (Jul 24, 2008)

I agree pk70...those statements were made in error. They really do not pertain to anything that was being asked. I apologize.


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## pk70 (Jul 24, 2008)

*jaspreet80 Ji

I truly appreciate your big heart; however, please, you do not need to apologize at all since you did nothing wrong by sharing views with all of us. You are obviously wonderful soul. *


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## bade_ustaad (Jul 24, 2008)

pk70 said:


> ( quote) Lots of interesting issues here.
> A wise man once told me - you don't choose the Guru to be his Sikh. He chooses you.
> 
> "When the disciple is ready, the teacher will appear."
> ...



Jaspreet 08 ji,

On the contrary you have been well advised. Like the Gardener observes each flower in his Garden so does God conscious people observe who is spiritually ready to progress to the next stage. The gardener will select and pick the right flowers at the right time. Due to ones ignorance some feel it to be impractical because they are anxious to be selected. One should subdue their anxiety. Some time ones expectations are so high because they have read so many books and have created an image of a dynamic personality who will instantly transform them. Unfortunately even if they meet a  Sadhu/Sant , beacuse it does not fit their criterion they will be left behind. 

For a Sikh their Guru is SGGS. But Gurus advocate the company of a Sadhu or a Sant for guidances. Unfortunately People want a Guru on their terms and hence they go out looking for a Guru. SGGS tells us that Guru/Sant/Sadhu is met by His blessing and ones past Karmas. So improve your Karmas and one day you will be blessed with the company of a true Sadhu/Saint. SGGS gives enough guidance to get ready if one is really interested. 

Perform these three basic principles of Guru Nanak Dev ji with utmost sincerety


*To      contemplate on His Naam( Naam Japna)*
*work      hard based on righteous principles( Dharam dee Kirat Karni*
*Sharing       with all others what have ( wand      shakana)*
Seek/pray for the company of a saint who will tell you  how to overcome * lust, anger, attachment, greed and ego. 

Life if the Fuel. **Lust, Anger, Attachment, Greed and Ego* are the five wicks to the Lamp of life. SGGS tells us how to divert these forces to achieve our goal to Salvation. Academics will never meet that goal. Elevate your consciousness  by following the teachings of SGGS and leave the rest  to  HIM.

Guru Bhaley karega.

My humble appologies for Choota muh badi baat. No offence intended .


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2008)

bade_ustaad said:


> Jaspreet 08 ji,
> 
> On the contrary you have been well advised. Like the Gardener observes each flower in his Garden so does God conscious people observe who is spiritually ready to progress to the next stage. The gardener will select and pick the right flowers at the right time. Due to ones ignorance some feel it to be impractical because they are anxious to be selected. One should subdue their anxiety. Some time ones expectations are so high because they have read so many books and have created an image of a dynamic personality who will instantly transform them. Unfortunately even if they meet a  Sadhu/Sant , beacuse it does not fit their criterion they will be left behind.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us, bade_ustaad ji  I am moved beyond words.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

i wish my mind was a playback tape recorder


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

amarsanghera ji,

Why do you wish your mind was a playback tape-recorder? You seem to have a pretty good memory. What thoughts are you trying to retrieve? We find your insights interesting.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

i am finding it tough to type what i am thinking 

words blur by,

hands spin out of control

and all i manage is a smiley 

Data Devan haar


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

i forgot...its friday 

back to the topic !!!

Badey Ustad ji

nice thoughts

i have an idea...

have you ever thought of meeting the saadhu inside you?


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> i am finding it tough to type what i am thinking
> 
> words blur by,
> 
> ...



Try voice to text software. It works. Back to topic: Yes, methinks bade_ustaad ji sees that.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

<<Try voice to text software. It works. >>

:inca:

rabba yaar mila de
jo luk baitha andar mere
rabba yaar mila de

mainu sunave tere barey
mainu dassey tere barey

kaddey kaddey joke vi sunave..

rabba yaar mila de


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

Punjabi not that good! Have to ask my bhenji Paminder Kaur to translate for me again.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

God...plz plz introduce me to the friend
one that is hiding inside
God plz pls introduce me to the friend

he will talk to me me abt you

he will tell me more abt you

and sometimes he will make me smile with jokes 

God plz pls introduce me to the friend inside me


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

Thank you amarsanghera ji.  I just read last night that if you pray to Guru Ram Daas for a big hug, Guru Ram Daas himself will give you a big hug. Today I am going to try it.


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## pk70 (Jul 25, 2008)

On the contrary you have been well advised. Like the Gardener observes each flower in his Garden so does God conscious people observe who is spiritually ready to progress to the next stage. The gardener will select and pick the right flowers at the right time. Due to ones ignorance some feel it to be impractical because they are anxious to be selected.( quote bade_ustad)
*Bade_ Ustad Jio
Your views strikingly resemble with one of my dear and respected friend.
With all due respect, I wonder how a flower gets better without the Gardener! The Gardner takes care of the flower through a medium( we can say here water and fertilizer etc), if even after that good care, some flowers are not selectable, that is their fate, so don't assume without the Gardner, flowers will blossom to the extreme for selection. As flowers are dependent on Gardener's, so do we, a lot of insects in different forms are there to eat us alive, GARDENER's  care through a medium, comes first,  do we care about the medium or love to have allaince with INSECTS .Even the wild flowers need HIS mercy ! Thanks for sharing nice views.*


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## bade_ustaad (Jul 25, 2008)

pk70 said:


> On the contrary you have been well advised. Like the Gardener observes each flower in his Garden so does God conscious people observe who is spiritually ready to progress to the next stage. The gardener will select and pick the right flowers at the right time. Due to ones ignorance some feel it to be impractical because they are anxious to be selected.( quote bade_ustad)
> *Bade_ Ustad Jio
> Your views strikingly resemble with one of my dear and respected friend.
> With all due respect, I wonder how a flower gets better without the Gardener! The Gardner takes care of the flower through a medium( we can say here water and fertilizer etc), if even after that good care, some flowers are not selectable, that is their fate, so don't assume without the Gardner, flowers will blossom to the extreme for selection. As flowers are dependent on Gardener's, so do we, a lot of insects in different forms are there to eat us alive, GARDENER's  care through a medium, comes first,  do we care about the medium or love to have allaince with INSECTS .Even the wild flowers need HIS mercy ! Thanks for sharing nice views.*



*Enjoy the fragrance of the flower whilst it blooms. All God Conscious people speak the same language.*

*Just as we are born and food is available at the door step to nourish us. Mother is there to care for  us and together with father both parents are our first Gurus to guide us into the world. We get our “Sanskaars” from our parents. These services are all available to us made possible by THE GARDENER (GOD) selected for each individual on merit. We just fail to understand/realize. *

*Jabb eh kehat ke main kush karta*
*Tabb eh garab jon mein phirta. *

*We are our own enemies but we blame on others for our inadequacies.*

*Sall pathar mein jant upaae, Ta ka rizak agey kar dharia. Any doubts?*

*All is provided for us  and well planned before hand, it is our own deficiency that we do not accept it.  “Tabb eh garab jon mein phirta.” That is why we suffer.*

Raise the level of your conscious and not the Head. The difference between mortals is the level of ones consciousness. We are given equal opportunity in each life. Some take advantage of this and others do not. Beggars cannot be choosers. To receive alms one has to bow. Like all sweet fruit when ripe bow down. This is the way forward.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

Pk70 jio,

I understand bade_ustaad ji to be describing in a very poetic way the problem of ego creeping into spiritual practice. We want to get it, we read books about it, we seek out experts, we talk amongst ourselves, we start a blog on the Internet, we measure our progress, we compare our vichaar to someone other's vichaar, we despair, we become anxious, we start mistaking gimmics for dhyana. Secretly we wonder if we have progressed more so than the next guy. Or we feel distraught because we are not where we think we should be. (I use "we" in the theoretical sense, not about any group in particular.)

Is this what Guru Ram Daas Dev ji meant when he says, ਅਬ ਹਮ ਚਲੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਹਾਰਿ ॥ 
ab ham chalee thaakur pehi haar || Now, I have come, exhausted, to my Lord and Master.  ਜਬ ਹਮ ਸਰਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕੀ ਆਈ ਰਾਖੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਭਾਵੈ ਮਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ jab ham saran prabhoo kee aaee raakh prabhoo bhaavai maar ||1|| rehaao ||Now that I have come seeking Your Sanctuary, God, please, either save me, or kill me. ||1||Pause||

He knows what to do. Everything else by way of "home remedies" gets in the way.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

*You who seek God apart, apart,
The thing you seek, thou art, thou art;
Why then search for what you have not lost?
Searching for what’s not lost, distrust, distrust!*
*Thou art the letters, names and the book
Prophets and angels your word undertook;
Just sit still, this futile search let go
You are the house, master and foe
Essence and form, celestial and from earth
Always eternal, in death and at birth.*
*If you want to see the beloved’s face
Polish the mirror, gaze into that space
In these truths, the secrets you weave
Are your punishments, yourselves deceive.*
*Shams-e Tabrizi, is the world Emperor
Seekers of his grace are behind which door?
This graceful King showers you with gifts
Unbeknownst to you, your souls uplifts*

*- Rumi*


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

Amarsanghera ji, Ti saluto!

_*On the subject of the Gardener -- *_

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
aasaa mehalaa 5 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

 
ਏਕੁ ਬਗੀਚਾ ਪੇਡ ਘਨ ਕਰਿਆ ॥ 
eaek bageechaa paedd ghan kariaa ||
There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown.


 
 ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਹਾ ਮਹਿ ਫਲਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
anmrith naam thehaa mehi faliaa ||1||
They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. ||1||


 
ਐਸਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ॥ 
aisaa karahu beechaar giaanee ||
Consider this, O wise one,
 

 ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ॥ 
jaa thae paaeeai padh nirabaanee ||
by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa.

 

ਆਸਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਬਿਖੂਆ ਕੇ ਕੁੰਟਾ ਬੀਚਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
aas paas bikhooaa kae kunttaa beech anmrith hai bhaaee rae ||1|| rehaao ||
All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. ||1||Pause||

*ਸਿੰਚਨਹਾਰੇ ਏਕੈ ਮਾਲੀ ॥ 
sinchanehaarae eaekai maalee ||
There is only one gardener who tends it.

 
ਖਬਰਿ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਪਾਤ ਪਤ ਡਾਲੀ ॥੨॥ 
khabar karath hai paath path ddaalee ||2||
He takes care of every leaf and branch. ||2||


ਸਗਲ ਬਨਸਪਤਿ ਆਣਿ ਜੜਾਈ ॥ 
sagal banasapath aan jarraaee ||
He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there.


ਸਗਲੀ ਫੂਲੀ ਨਿਫਲ ਨ ਕਾਈ ॥੩॥ 
sagalee foolee nifal n kaaee ||3||
They all bear fruit - none is without fruit. ||3||* 

 
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
anmrith fal naam jin gur thae paaeiaa ||
One who receives the Ambrosial Fruit of the Naam from the Guru


ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਤਰੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੫॥੫੬॥ 
naanak dhaas tharee thin maaeiaa ||4||5||56||
- O Nanak, such a servant crosses over the ocean of Maya. ||4||5||56||

Ang 385, Guru Arjan Dev ji


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

O, thou crow, pecking at my emaciated body, eating away its flesh, Pary touch not these two eyes, so I may have sight of the Beloved.​








​


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

Who/what is the crow?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

:inca:

i was supposed to ask that question !!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 26, 2008)

are those the "eyes" that can "see" "the Beloved ?? does that mean that inspite of all his lifelong ghaalnna..hard work...Farid Ji is dying without having "seen" His Beloved ??

imho the "picture" is literally interpreting....just like the one that shows farid ji with  a wooden "roti" in relation to "Kaath ki roti..."....a human body cannot live on chewing a wooden roti....one has to eat food to live...
Gyani jarnail Singh:yes:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 26, 2008)

kaaga or crow is maya

eyes are the soul

he says- maya eats away the physical body, let it not corrupt your soul as it seeks the beloved.


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## KulwantK (Aug 13, 2008)

Sat Nam, everyone!
One of the most interesting distinctions about Sikhism is that it is a choice-based faith.  Even for those born into Sikh families, they can still choose whether or not to be Sikh, or take Amrit, or choose to follow a different faith, or path to the Divine.  Related to this factor, is the lack of "missionary work" so often found in other paths, such as christianity.
There are many of those who have not taken Amrit who are living their lives as Sikhs, and I honor them as Sikhs.  Everything hinges on what is in one's heart!
Wahe Guru,
KulwantK


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## AusDesi (Dec 17, 2009)

KulwantK said:


> Sat Nam, everyone!
> One of the most interesting distinctions about Sikhism is that it is a choice-based faith.  Even for those born into Sikh families, they can still choose whether or not to be Sikh, or take Amrit, or choose to follow a different faith, or path to the Divine.



That sounds good in theory but most kids in Sikhs families are not even allowed to marry outside Sikhism let alone choose a separate religion.


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