# Blessing Without Marriage?



## Ash Kaur (Jan 11, 2010)

Just some advice/opinions really, is it right to have a child blessed in a Gurdwara (akhand path) when the parents of the baby are not married?


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2010)

Ash Kaur ji

You ask a very intriguing question. I wonder if the answer is rooted more in culture than in the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The SRM doesn't have any language at all in the ceremony for naming a baby that states the parents must be married, though the family members are mentioned. No parent other than the mother however is named specifically.

Good discussion question too.


----------



## Archived_Member16 (Jan 11, 2010)

Regardless of the parents status, I personally suggest that the baby ( new life ) receive WAHEGURU JI's blessings ( in his / her own right ) to enjoy: Peace, love, light (enlightenment), health, happiness & prosperity in life !


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 11, 2010)

Ash Kaur said:


> Just some advice/opinions really, is it right to have a child blessed in a Gurdwara (akhand path) when the parents of the baby are not married?



No.

However, when the child is old enough himself/herself he/she can seek blessings.

The big "lets not get married" trend is a con sold by men to women to avoid commitment. Women nowadays seem to think that they are somehow independent if they do not have a child in marriage, but who gets lumbered with the children when the man leaves.

Bare in mind marriage is a central principle in Sikhi, and having children outside marriage is definitely a no.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 11, 2010)

Soul_jyot said:


> Regardless of the parents status, I personally suggest that the baby ( new life ) receive WAHEGURU JI's blessings ( in his / her own right ) to enjoy: Peace, love, light (enlightenment), health, happiness & prosperity in life !



I disagree Soul Jyot, what you are saying is noble, but I draw the line when it comes to marriage in Sikhi. Whether this marriage is hetro, homo whatever, it is still about commitment......and commitment to family and yes I have heard all the blah blah blah, about I don't need a piece of paper to tell me I am married.

Marriage in Sikhi is a Universal declaration to God and Sangat that this is my soul mate and I intend to commit to he/she for the rest of my life. You are seking blessing from God.

If they cannot even seek that blessing then what right do they have to seek blessing for a child that has been produced?

I do think however, the child can when old enough seek blessing for himself/herself.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> No.
> 
> However, when the child is old enough himself/herself he/she can seek blessings.
> 
> ...




How would this have any bearing on whether a child receives blessings or not? Don't understand that aspect of your comment.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 12, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> How would this have any bearing on whether a child receives blessings or not? Don't understand that aspect of your comment.


<?"urn:fficeffice" />
<o> </o>
*My View*
<o> </o>
Keep the child to one side and focus from where the child has come and why marriage is so important to a Sikh.

By giving blessings to the child (to put it crudely), is like saying its Ok to have a child outside marriage (when in Sikhi it is not). It is OK to produce B a s t a r d s. 
<o> </o>
The child would be seen as a product of Kaam or self-will (manmukh), not God's will.
<o> </o>
They are in fact saying, bless this child made from self will. Surely that cannot be compatible with Sikh belief?
<o> </o>
Now when the child is old and conscious enough, he/she can seek blessings if he/she wishes, but I cannot see how the parents can seek blessings for self will.
<o> </o>
*Solutions*
<o> </o>
The parents too can seek blessings and have a marriage if they wish.
<o> </o>
The idea is one of submission to God’s will rather than self will.
<o> </o>
*A Sikhs Duty*
<o> </o>
A Sikh never hides, never bows in fear, and he she proclaims to society and in front of God, when he/she has taken a partner. It is an act of bravery. It is an act saying “I say to you God and society, I forsake all others (apart from you God) and have chosen my soul mate”.
<o> </o>
Producing children from living together (and not getting married) is hiding away. It is the ultimate act of cowardice. Not having the guts to get married in front of society and God is cowardice. To produce a child from that union is irresponsible and a Sikh never shirks from responsibility and duty.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2010)

randip ji

I have to disagree. There is no self-will expressed by a newborn born out of wedlock. The blessing is for the child, who bears no responsibility for the kaam of its parents. Should we assume that a  child born out of wedlock suffers from its own past life karam. If we don't assume that, then we can take newborn children out of the grip of societal blame. If we can remove blame from the children, so then we take ourselves out of the grip of 19th Century ideas in which children must bear blame for the sins of their fathers. That is Old Testament thinking from the times of Moses. Suffering generational punishment is in my opinion too primitive to be part of Guru Nanak's ideals.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 12, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> randip ji
> 
> I have to disagree. There is no self-will expressed by a newborn born out of wedlock. The blessing is for the child, who bears no responsibility for the kaam of its parents. Should we assume that a child born out of wedlock suffers from its own past life karam. If we don't assume that, then we can take newborn children out of the grip of societal blame. If we can remove blame from the children, so then we take ourselves out of the grip of 19th Century ideas in which children must bear blame for the sins of their fathers. That is Old Testament thinking from the times of Moses. Suffering generational punishment is in my opinion too primitive to be part of Guru Nanak's ideals.


 
But the child does not suffer, he or she when conscious enough can seek blessings, what I am saying is, the parents cannot seek those blessings.

The parents are in effect getting a blessing for Kaam. The child (the product of Kaam), is not condemned, because when he she is old enough, he she can seek blessings in his/her own right.

The child should never have to pay for the stupidity of the parents.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2010)

Randip ji


Compassion is deeper than religion, to quote a friend. Are you saying Randip ji that the child born out of wedlock = "Kaam?" Therefore the "kaam-child" should not be blessed?


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2010)

Sent to my email to share with the forum.

“Compassion is deeper than religion”- This implies considering another's difficulty or sorrow as one's own and helping to relieve it as far as possible. Compassion also includes the overlooking of imperfections and mistakes of others, for to err is human. The Gurus admired those Sikhs who observed others' faults, but did not expose them to their disadvantage.

Patience (dhiraj) implies a high level of tolerance and empathy for others. It requires control over ones ego and willingness to overlook another's weakness or mistakes. It requires that a Sikh should be strong willed, but kind hearted.

Compassion and patience help us all walk the path envisioned by our Gurus."


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 13, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Randip ji<?"urn:fficeffice" />





Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Compassion is deeper than religion, to quote a friend. Are you saying Randip ji that the child born out of wedlock = "Kaam?" Therefore the "kaam-child" should not be blessed?



<o> </o>
You are correct 100%. Compassion is far deeper than religion, but what the question here seems to imply is that the parents are looking for a blessing for their own self will, and their own Hankaar.
<o> </o>
Their, Kaam, Hankaar has led to this situation, and therefore they cannot be blessed for this.
<o> </o>
Now if they were to show humility eg get married and shed their self will in favour of Gods will then it would be a different matter.
<o> </o>
My opinion is, while the parents are still under the delusion of Kaam and their Hankaar is preventing them from accepting humility and Gods will, THEY cannot ask for there child to be blessed. What the parents seem to asking for is NOT a blessing for the child, but a blessing for their own Kaam and Hankaar.
<o> </o>
The Kaam rests not with the child, but with the parents, and it up to them to show humility first for the sake of their child before any blessing.
<o> </o>
The child, in their own right can ask for a blessing when old enough, and unlike other faiths, the child does not carry the burden of the parents.
<o> </o>
I say this as someone who chose my own partner, and despite intense opposition from elements from both our families did the right thing and got married. The cowardly thing would have been not to get married and shun society. These parents have this choice. As a Sikh we have certain duties and values that are central. The duties of a Householder is something the first Nanak spoke about and illustrated to us through example. The following Nanak’s too, followed this example.
<o> </o>
Sikhi has compassion, it has compassion for ones enemy, but that compassion should not be so blind as to wander into the <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceType w:st="on">territory</st1laceType> of <st1laceName w:st="on">Ahimsa</st1laceName>. The Sikh message is “yes, we will have compassion, we will forgive your mistakes and there will be willingness on our part, but you too must acknowledge your part in the play”. Sikhi gives a carrot, but it also has a stick. That’s why when all means have been exhausted; we are so ready to draw the proverbial sword (some too quickly for my liking).


----------



## Admin (Jan 13, 2010)

Without deviating from the topic, in western cultures this type of relationship is a norm where two people in love, live together, have kids but never get married without getting in the '_bondage_' of marriage in legal or cultural terms... how would we interpret this kind of relationships in western cultures? Kaam/Lust?


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 13, 2010)

Aman Singh said:


> Without deviating from the topic, in western cultures this type of relationship is a norm where two people in love, live together, have kids but never get married without getting in the bondage of marriage in legal or cultural terms... how would we interpret this kind of relationships in western cultures? Kaam/Lust?


 
Is it the norm? or do we just hear more about it?

From recent stats I read (I will find them), in the UK, marriage is still quite common. Note also the West is made up of many European countries, and countries such as Hungary, Greece, Italy, Spain etc etc, marriage is still the norm and children born out of wedlock not the norm.

I would say children born in such relationships is partly to do with Kaam but more to do with Hankaar (i.e. thinking you know better than past generations).


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 14, 2010)

Gurmit Kaur said:


> If the couple in question are seeking blessing for there child,  should they not seek blessing first from Guruji, themselves?



Exactly my point.

As Sikhs we are expected to have at least a basic code of conduct.


----------



## manas_ki_jaat (Apr 12, 2010)

Blessings of guru is for everyone. In guru's eyes we all are equal. So, it doesn't matter child is born out of wedlock.


----------

