# Who Is Guru In Sikhism



## Sikh80 (Jul 1, 2008)

*SCANNED
Dear friends,

We all interpret bani as per our understanding. But sometime we feel that we may not be correct and seek the help of others to resolve the issue. 
One of such issues for me is to understand Guru in terms of bani and Sikhism.

We have many kinds of references in The Granth Sahib:

*

*True Guru *
*Sat Guru*
*Perfect Guru*
*Guru*
*Granth Sahib*
*Besides aad Guru, Jugaad guru, Sri Guru dev...etc*
*
By default we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.


Let us look at Today's Hukumnama. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clear.
*

*The Perfect Guru has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the True Lord.*
*This line contains perfect Guru and God and states that perfect Guru has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of Lord. This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.

Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?

[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above]*
 *
     [July 1, 2008, Tuesday 04:30 AM. IST]      *  *     soriT mhlw 5 ]* ​      TwiF pweI krqwry ] qwpu Coif gieAw prvwry ] guir pUrY hY rwKI ] srix  scy kI qwkI ]1] prmysru Awip hoAw rKvwlw ] sWiq shj suK iKn mih aupjy mnu hoAw  sdw suKwlw ] rhwau ] hir hir nwmu dIE dwrU ] iqin sglw rogu ibdwrU ] ApxI ikrpw  DwrI ] iqin sglI bwq svwrI ]2] pRiB Apnw ibrdu smwirAw ] hmrw guxu Avguxu n  bIcwirAw ] gur kw sbdu BieE swKI ] iqin sglI lwj rwKI ]3] bolwieAw bolI qyrw ]  qU swihbu guxI ghyrw ] jip nwnk nwmu scu swKI ] Apuny dws kI pYj rwKI ]4]6]56]       


     (AMg: 622)       
 
pMjwbI ivAwiKAw     :      soriT mhlw 5 ]     ​      hy BweI! ijs mnu`K dy AMdr krqwr ny TMf vrqw id`qI, aus dy prvwr  (aus  dy igAwn-ieMidAW  ivkwrW dw) qwp C`f jWdw hY [ hy BweI! pUry gurU ny ijs  mnu`K dI mdd kIqI, aus ny sdw kwiem rihx vwly prmwqmw dw Awsrw q`k ilAw [1[hy  BweI! ijs mnu`K dw rwKw prmwqmw Awp bx jWdw hY, aus dw mn sdw vwsqy suKI ho  jWdw hY (ikauNik aus dy AMdr) iek iCn ivc Awqmk Afolqw dy suK qy SWqI pYdw ho  jWdy hn [rhwau[hy BweI! (ivkwr-rogW dw ielwj krn vwsqy gurU ny ijs mnu`K )  prmwqmw dw nwm-dvweI id`qI aus nwm-dwrU ny aus mnu`K dw swrw hI (ivkwr-) rog  k`t id`qw [ jdoN pRBU ny aus mnu`K auqy AwpxI myhr kIqI, qW aus ny AwpxI swrI  jIvn-khwxI hI sohxI bxw leI (Awpxw swrw jIvn sMvwr ilAw) [2[hy BweI! pRBU ny  (sdw hI) Awpxy mu`F-kdImW dy (ipAwr vwly) suBwv  cyqy r`iKAw hY [ auh swfw  jIvW dw koeI gux jW AOgux idl qy lw nhIN r`Kdw [ (pRBU dI ikrpw nwl ijs mnu`K  dy AMdr) gurU dy Sbd ny Awpxw pRBwv pwieAw, Sbd ny aus dI swrI ie`zq r`K leI  (aus  ivkwrW dy Fhy cVHn qoN bcw ilAw) [3[hy pRBU! qUM swfw mwlk hYN, qUM guxW  dw ^zwnw hYN, qUM fUMGy ijgry vwlw hYN [ jdoN qUM pRyrnw dyNdw hYN qdoN hI mYN  qyrI is&iq-swlwh kr skdw hW [ hy nwnk! sdw-iQr pRBU dw nwm jipAw kr, iehI sdw  hwmI Brn vwlw hY [ pRBU Awpxy syvk dI (sdw) ie`zq r`Kdw AwieAw hY [4[6[56[      
[SIZE=-1]English      Translation :[/SIZE]   
*SORAT'H, FIFTH MEHL:*​ *      The Creator has brought utter peace to my home; the fever has left my  family. The Perfect Guru has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the True Lord.  || 1 || The Transcendent Lord Himself has become my Protector. Tranquility,  intuitive peace and poise welled up in an instant, and my mind was comforted  forever. || Pause || The Lord, Har, Har, gave me the medicine of His Name,  which has cured all disease. He extended His Mercy to me, and resolved all  these affairs. || 2 || God confirmed His loving nature; He did not take my  merits or demerits into account. The Word of the Guru's Shabad has become  manifest, and through it, my honor was totally preserved. || 3 || I speak as  You cause me to speak; O Lord and Friday, 23rd Poh (Samvat 538 Nanakshahi)  Master, You are the ocean of excellence. Nanak chants the Naam, the Name of the  Lord, according to the Teachings of Truth. God preserves the honor of His  slaves. || 4 || 6 || 56 ||      

Tuesday, 17th Assaar (Samvat 540 Nanakshahi)



Kindly clarify with your opinion as to what should we infer when there is a reference to Guru in Bani*                                                       . 


*A
*ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

*Question-1 
Is Satguru here the Lord or the Granth sahib?
By default I would place it as Granth sahib.* 


 nwnk nwmu smwil qU gur kY hyiq Apwir ]5]20]53] (34-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. [/FONT]

*Question -2*
 *
In the above line I shall prefer to place the meaning of Guru as the Lord HIMSELF or is there any possibility of making it look like Granth sahib.?*
 
* B.*
 siqguir hir pRBu buiJAw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (39-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
The True Guru understands the Lord God. There is no other as Great as the Guru.

* If Satguru is Sabad guru and translation is correct, the meaning of 'true guru understands the Lord' shall have to be translated slightly in a different manner or will it mean literally that 'Granth sahib' understands the Lord God'. Seemingly I am not able to reconcile.

** Similarly the next line 'there is no other Great as guru ' shall also mean that there is no one as great Granth sahib . It should ,however, mean that No one is  as great as Lord. 
* [/FONT]   
C
DMnu vfBwgI vf BwgIAw jo Awie imly gur pwis ]2] (40-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
  Blessed, and most fortunate of the very fortunate, are those who come to meet the Guru. [/FONT]

*Question-3
* *Who is referred to as guru in the above. ? I have intentionally put in 'one -liners' only to see if there is some standardization of the term. Guru/Satguru/perfect guru/Guru and similar words.


 Kindly expand the above lines at B and C  and also see questions 1,2 and 3 . Opinion of members would be highly appreciated. It was a long over due post  but after spending almost an year or so I am not able to debug the meaning automatically. 


* *Regards

Wjkk WjkF* [/FONT]


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 1, 2008)

Gurfateh

We have only one Guru,Adi Ant Eakai Avtara Soi Guru Samjhiyo Hamara.

There can not be two Gurus at a time when it come for the single subject.Say we can not have two teacher in same class one teaching Maths and another also the same.Other could teach English.

So in spritul realm,As Guru Granth Sahib Ji say that All is Akal so Guru is Akal only.

Without Akal(sorry to be harsh) as Vedas and Katebs are useless so same emplies to our scriptures too.So Guru Granth Sahib Ji are manifestation of Akal in forms of word,which make another manifestation of Akal ie Human,unite with Akal(while they are alive).

So there should not be two thoughts,as that is dualism or Duja Bhav.Sahib Mera Eko Hai.My lord is one.Guru Granth Sahib Ji do not exist outside Akal.They are formed by Akal for salvation of Humans.All social and econmic benefit which teachings of this text gives us are due to its spritual powers ie our enlightenments makes us to behave well.Akal Bless.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 1, 2008)

*Dear Vijaydeep ji,

I am in basic agreement that ultimate Guru should be the Lord Himself. However, there is some confusion on account of certain pre-fixes employed in Bani e.g. True Guru/perfect Guru/aad guru/jugaad /Sri Guru dev/Guru..........

Are These all to be read as the Primal Lord. or 'waheguru'?

Can we simplify the things to this level.?

I shall be grateful for a clear answer and it shall help me to come out of the groove that is already made in the neural paths.I hope you have read the post at Sl 1 to the thread. 

Guidance is sought from the other members.

regards*


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 1, 2008)

Gurfateh
Page 485, Line 2
ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
सभु गोबिंदु है सभु गोबिंदु है गोबिंद बिनु नही कोई ॥
Sabẖ gobinḏ hai sabẖ gobinḏ hai gobinḏ bin nahī ko&shy;ī.
God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all.
*Devotee Namdev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
Page 1350, Line 18
ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਵਿਆ ਸਰਬੇ ਠਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मेरा प्रभु रविआ सरबे ठाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Mėrā parabẖ ravi&shy;ā sarbė ṯẖā&shy;ī. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
My God is All-pervading everywhere. ||1||Pause||
*Devotee Namdev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

ang 988

ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮਾ ਬੋਲੈ ॥ 
सभै घट रामु बोलै रामा बोलै ॥ 
Sabẖai gẖat rām bolai rāmā bolai. 
Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks. 

ਰਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
राम बिना को बोलै रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Rām binā ko bolai rė. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
Who else speaks, other than the Lord? ||1||Pause|| 

ਏਕਲ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੁੰਜਰ ਚੀਟੀ ਭਾਜਨ ਹੈਂ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥ 
एकल माटी कुंजर चीटी भाजन हैं बहु नाना रे ॥ 
Ėkal mātī kunjar cẖītī bẖājan haiŉ baho nānā rė. 
Out of the same clay, the elephant, the ant, and the many sorts of species are formed. 

ਅਸਥਾਵਰ ਜੰਗਮ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਮ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ 
असथावर जंगम कीट पतंगम घटि घटि रामु समाना रे ॥१॥ 
Asthāvar jangam kīt paṯangam gẖat gẖat rām samānā rė. ||1|| 
In stationary life forms, moving beings, worms, moths and within each and every heart, the Lord is contained. ||1|| 

ਏਕਲ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰਾਖੁ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਅਉਰ ਤਜਹੁ ਸਭ ਆਸਾ ਰੇ ॥ 
एकल चिंता राखु अनंता अउर तजहु सभ आसा रे ॥ 
Ėkal cẖinṯā rākẖ ananṯā a&shy;or ṯajahu sabẖ āsā rė. 
Remember the One, Infinite Lord; abandon all other hopes. 

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਕਾਮਾ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥ 
प्रणवै नामा भए निहकामा को ठाकुरु को दासा रे ॥२॥३॥ 
Paraṇvai nāmā bẖa&shy;ė nihkāmā ko ṯẖākur ko ḏāsā rė. ||2||3|| 
Naam Dayv prays, I have become dispassionate and detached; who is the Lord and Master, and who is the slave? ||2||3|| 
ang1147

ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਟੇਕ ॥ 
दीन दुनीआ तेरी टेक ॥ 
Ḏīn ḏunī&shy;ā ṯėrī tėk. 
In this world and the next, I have Your Support. 

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
सभ महि रविआ साहिबु एक ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Sabẖ meh ravi&shy;ā sāhib ėk. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
The One Lord, our Lord and Master, is all-pervading. ||1||Pause|| 


So brother God is very simple to be seen in our case,where you see that you find that.(Whereever you see with whole concentration there that lord is Chartropakhyan 266)

*True Guru/perfect Guru/aad guru/jugaad /Sri Guru dev/Guru..........*

So for True Guru,who else could be true then Lord.Mortal,books,all are created and will be destroyed(What is made that is destroyed ,happens today or tommorow,Salok Mahala Nauvan).Truth is eternal,so True Guru could be Eternal only and Eternal means Akal.

Perfect Guru-who else could be perfect,can one who depeands upon environment to survive or one who lets Environment survive for as long that lord wants.

Add or intial,who is primal other then one who only was,is only and will be only.Jugad ie Primal for ages.No created being could be like that.Only uncreated creator could bew like that.

Sri Guru Dev stand for Respected guide divine.Divine is also not created.Dev is driven from Divya or devine.

Even if we read in any text that Human or Text is refered to as a True Guru,it is True Akal Purakh,of which this human or text is a manifestation is refered to .Akal Bless.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 1, 2008)

i never understand why

Waheguru = Lord ????

Koyi Bole Ram Ram, Koyi Khuda 
Koyi Seve Gosain, Koyi Allah
Kaaran Karan Kareem 
Kirpa Taar Raheem


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## Sikh80 (Jul 1, 2008)

*Dear Vijaydeep ji,

Very many thanks for your reply.

I am not complaining about the attributes of God in Sikhism. 
I have a question of very basic  or crude in nature as I am ignorant and am trying to grapple with the semantic aspects of the Bani.May be with passage of time and with HIS grace I shall understand the meaning.However, I cannot assign 'Guru' to only 'Lord'.It may be so as per that you have stated in your above post. Reflcting upo this, yes it is true that HE is the Guru of our Gurus and hence is a super-Guru/Supreme Guru or the Lord. 

My questions are related to as to how these concepts have got integrated in the bani and if one can standardize the meaning of the terms as stated in the earlier posts in this thread.

Let us take the following line for the purpose of understanding that you want to convey and I want to understand.* 


ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
*Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.*

1.

* I shall presume that translation is correct and 'SatGuru' and 'Lord' should have different meanings else there would be a fallacy in translation.**
[Point: Satguru and Lord are two different entities as referred to]* 

 2.
siqgur ivic Awpu riKEnu, kir prgtu AwiK suxwieAw ]
*He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.*


*[Point:Again taking cue from the translation the 'satguru' and the 'Lord' should be two different entities as all that the line means that the Lord is accessible through Satguru.*

 gur AwgY kir jodVI jn nwnk hir mylwie ]10]1] (234-15, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 4)
*Offer your **prayers to the Guru; O servant Nanak, He shall unite you with the Lord. ||10||1||*

* 3. As per the above line also Guru and the Lord are two different entities.

One can cite other examples as well to state that the meaning in Bani should be assigned at micro-level and not at macro level.

One may assign those kinds of meaning when one understands the bani in it is entirety and I am not at that stage now. It is a grey area for me.I cannot say about other members.

I have all the reasons to believe that there is no standardization of these terms and the contextual reading is essential and in any case we are referring two types of Gurus i.e. Nirankaar or the Granth sahib and further at no place there is any room for our 10 Gurus to be taken as Guru in the sense that it should be understood in the spirit and the context of the thread.

The answers of Vijay ji were very helpful in exploring the attributes of Almighty and these were really thought provoking. I am ever grateful to Vijay ji for sharing these wonderful vaaks of Guru saibaan.

One is free to add if one likes, I have nothing more to ask .

Wjkk Wjkf
* 
[/FONT]


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## Sikh80 (Jul 1, 2008)

*http://www.sikhism.us/gurmat-vichaar/18393-understanding-gurbani-14.html


I have pasted the URl of the discussion which also deals with similar matter i.e. the difference between satguru and* * Lord. [kindly refer posts 134 and 135 of the thread]

The commentary of Dr.Sahib Singh ji also  implies of Satguru and the Lord as two entities.* *Anyone having other ideas may post further.*


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## Honey22 (Jul 3, 2008)

Sikh 80 Ji,

You are trying your best to verify sipiritual wisdom with human logic:yes:, human logic. I am not sure if this ever occur to you that this verification is *Something Impossible*. Anyways, after seeing you too much interested in such games of logic(impossible to be verified), here is another riddle you may be interested in:

*How 1 >/= 125000 Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In our Guru's words it is possible. How can you verify this equation with your human logic!* 

Thanks Singh80 Ji. And very much Good Luck in your Games of Logic. Just a tip- Gurbani is Akath Ki Katha not a game of human logic.


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## Honey22 (Jul 3, 2008)

A mother calls her child with so many names: mera beta, mera puttar, mera laal, mera heera, mera mithu, meri jaan, mera armaan, meri ijjat, meri poonji, mera sabh kujh and many many more sweet things.
How one child can be these many entities at the same time, just joking Sikh 80 Ji.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 3, 2008)

Respected Honey22

I am not joking. I had some doubts that I posted. You have also not given your opinion but have just mocked at me. May be I do not understand things the way you do but I am entitled for the clarification if someone has to help me out. 

With Best wishes


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## Honey22 (Jul 3, 2008)

Sikh 80 Ji,

*It is simple: you are trying to verify Spiritual Wisdom with Human logic, which is impossible, **no one can verify Spiritual Wisdom(Gurbani/Guru/Satguru/Gurudev/Lord/Waheguru) with any type of logical investigations(questions you are asking such as- "Who is Guru In Sikhism",* it can easily be taken as you are doubting AND MAKING A MOCKERY OF Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's decision that is being followed by the whole Sikh Community with GREAT GREAT RESPECT*). Gurbani/Guru/Lord cant be defined through human logic. It is just not possible. No wonder 'Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji'/'Gurbani' is said to be- Akath Ki Katha/Anhad Bani/Naam Ratan/Nirankaar/Naam Amrit and much more, how can it be adequately described, You yourself been trying- with no answers-still your doubts remain. **I hope you understand my point of view now . This is all I am trying to tell you brother, dont waste your time investigating as this type of investigation is not going to bear any fruit. Heeray Jaisa janam, dont let it go to waste.*
*There are a few very wellknown verses among oldies like myself:*
*rab ik gunjhaldaar bujhaarat rab ik gorakhdhandaa, gojh esde kholan lagyaan {censored} ho jai bandaa.*

*Falsafi Ko Behas K Ander Khuda Milta Nahi*
*Dour Ko Suljha Raha Hai Aur Sira Milta Nahi*

*You still want verifications- Good Luck Sikh 80 Ji.*


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## Honey22 (Jul 3, 2008)

Gurbani tells the WAY to get rid of DOUBTS-multiple times my brother.



ਜਿਨੀ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਤਿਨੀ ਸਾਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਚਾਖੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ 
jinee chaakhiaa thinee saadh paaeiaa bin chaakhae bharam bhulaae ||
Those who have tasted it, enjoy its flavor; without tasting it, they wander in doubt, lost and deceived.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
anmrith saachaa naam hai kehanaa kashhoo n jaae ||
The True Name is the Ambrosial Nectar; no one can describe it.
ਪੀਵਤ ਹੂ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਭਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
peevath hoo paravaan bhaeiaa poorai sabadh samaae ||2||
Drinking it in, one becomes honorable, absorbed in the Perfect Word of the Shabad. ||2||



ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾ ਭਾਗੈ ਕਾ ਉਦਉ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
poorai bhaag sathagur milai jaa bhaagai kaa oudho hoe ||
By perfect good fortune, one meets the True Guru, when one's destiny is awakened.
ਅੰਤਰਹੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਕਟੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
antharahu dhukh bhram katteeai sukh paraapath hoe ||
Suffering and doubt are cut out from within, and peace is obtained.
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੩॥ 
gur kai bhaanai jo chalai dhukh n paavai koe ||3||
One who walks in harmony with the Guru's Will shall not suffer in pain. ||3||


ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਚੇਤਿ ॥ 
man maerae anadhin jaag har chaeth ||
O my mind, remain awake and aware night and day, and think of the Lord.
ਆਪਣੀ ਖੇਤੀ ਰਖਿ ਲੈ ਕੂੰਜ ਪੜੈਗੀ ਖੇਤਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
aapanee khaethee rakh lai koonj parraigee khaeth ||1|| rehaao ||
Protect your crops, or else the birds shall descend on your farm. ||1||Pause||
ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਇਛਾ ਪੂਰੀਆ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ 
man keeaa eishhaa pooreeaa sabadh rehiaa bharapoor ||
The desires of the mind are fulfilled, when one is filled to overflowing with the Shabad.
ਭੈ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਦਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
bhai bhaae bhagath karehi dhin raathee har jeeo vaekhai sadhaa hadhoor ||
One who fears, loves, and is devoted to the Dear Lord day and night, sees Him always close at hand.
ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਦਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਸਰੀਰਹੁ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
sachai sabadh sadhaa man raathaa bhram gaeiaa sareerahu dhoor ||
Doubt runs far away from the bodies of those, whose minds remain forever attuned to the True Word of the Shabad.
ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਾਚਾ ਗੁਣੀ ਗਹੀਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
niramal saahib paaeiaa saachaa gunee geheer ||2||
The Immaculate Lord and Master is found. He is True; He is the Ocean of Excellence. ||2||


Good Luck Veer


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## Astroboy (Jul 3, 2008)

> One who walks in harmony with the Guru's Will shall not suffer in pain.




Honey22 Ji,

What is the Guru's Will ?  I am too much in pain because whatever I do, there is always an element of dissatisfaction, unfulfillment and too much dependency on my feel-senses.


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## Honey22 (Jul 3, 2008)

namjap Ji, Gurbani/Guru is the true source to know Guru's Will. 

Humbly putting in words with Guru's Grace: Human Life is gifted to learn to live in obedience to God's/Guru's Will. His Will is- all that is happening every milisecond- nothing is/was/can happen without His Will. Surrender to Him every moment/every breath. We feel pain(dukh) when we are running after comforts(sukh). But Guru Ji teaches us to treat both dukh and sukh in the same manner, for which we need to develop a nuteral mind(mind that is at peace under all circumstances). I believe and have experienced that more than Nine-tenths of the difficulties are over come when our hearts are ready to do/live the Guru's/God's will, whatever it may be. Hearts are pierced by Gurbani(Word of God) namjap Ji(you may be listening to your Guru if from another faith/religion), there is no other way out. I hope my words will not hurt you, if they do-please accept my apologies. Living this human life, performing duties of family life, performing duties of religious life, surrender to Him every moment, Consistently thinking of Gurbani/Guru/God in mind-is Sikh Way of Life.

Gurbani Gavo Bhaee


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## Astroboy (Jul 3, 2008)

Honey22 Ji,



> Living this human life, performing duties of family life, performing duties of religious life, surrender to Him every moment, Consistently thinking of Gurbani/Guru/God in mind-is Sikh Way of Life.



I find it very difficult to figure things out in this very confused state. How do I start ? Can you explain in baby-steps ?


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## Honey22 (Jul 3, 2008)

Namjap Ji,

There are thousands of baby steps you have mentioned yourself in many of your posts. To remind you a few are being represented:

*



ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ ॥

Click to expand...

*


> *आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥*
> *Āḏės ṯisai āḏės.*
> *I bow to Him, I humbly bow.*
> *Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]*
> ...


 
Namjap Ji,
Humbly suggesting: Please Follow/Practice It Yourself As Well whatever you are sharing with others. Gurbani is full of baby steps, if we put our trust in it.  I hope my words are not hurting your feelings in any manner- if they are please accept my apologies.


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## Astroboy (Jul 3, 2008)

Thank you Jee.


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## pk70 (Jul 3, 2008)

*Sikh80 jio*
*Your question about Guru, Satguru is very genuine. In Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru and Satguru are used for both, the Creator and His medium. You have to look the context of its use; idea will be clear” me apna gur poosh dekhyaa”(M-1), Guru Nanak ji is addressing the Creator as Guru, who literally is Guru and through a medium His guidance is passed on. Here in the following Guru Vaak, medium is addressed as only way out*
ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord

*Please note it down, here the word is Satguru, stress is on true Guru, there can be many out there claiming to be Guru but Guru ji gives stress that only through TRUE GURU , He is realized. In the following Guru Vaak, True Guru is only referred as Guru, in here Lord is mentioned as NAAM and “apaar” word is not used for The Infinite but for infinite love(het) *
nwnk nwmu smwil qU gur kY hyiq Apwir ]5]20]53] (34-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru.[/FONT]
   [/FONT]
 *In the following Guru Vaak, see the Word Satguru( sihari means Satguru ne), it is for medium, who has found/realized Hari Prabh( Lord), then, praise of medium, Guru, goes on. Since He has realized Him, no one is equal to Guru**.*
siqguir hir pRBu buiJAw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (39-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
The True Guru understands the Lord God. There is no other as Great as the Guru.
*Why? Answer*” ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੀਆ ਦਿਖਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has shown me the Lord God. ||1||Pause||
*When your quoted above Guru Vaak was revealed to Guru, there was no Guru Granth Sahib ji, so do not translate that word as Guru Granth Sahib ji. Still it is a praise of Guru, the medium. Now, coming back to Guru Granth Sahib ji; today for true Sikhs, eternal Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji; obviously, the meaning makes sense that no other can be equal to Guru Granth Sahib ji as a medium to the Lord. Bani is Nirankaar because it is all about Him, it is His “nisaan” Through Guru Granth Sahib ji, Sikhs understand and know the Lord. Guru is also honored as Jahaaj/bohath,** ਸਤਿਗੁਰ*ੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਵ ਹੈ ਕਿਤੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
सतिगुरु बोहिथु हरि नाव है कितु बिधि चड़िआ जाइ ॥
Saṯgur bohith har nāv hai kiṯ biḏẖ cẖaṛi*ā jā*ė.
The Boat of the True Guru is the Name of the Lord. How can we climb on board?* ) that clarifies Guru’s being medium to Him*
*(Quote Sikh 80)*
  [/FONT]DMnu vfBwgI vf BwgIAw jo Awie imly gur pwis ]2] (40-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
 [/FONT]  Blessed, and most fortunate of the very fortunate, are those who come to meet the Guru. 

*Question-3[/FONT]**
[/FONT]*Who is referred to as guru in the above. ?[/FONT]
* Guru, who dispels illusions, darkness, veil of falsehood, clearly is His medium[/FONT]*. So *who meet the medium Guru are lucky since they are destined to walk on Guru path to realize HIM. Remember Guru ji also gives stress on His grace as well; that is another Hint that Guru ship is initiated from The Lord (*[/FONT]siqgur ivic Awpu riKEnu, kir prgtu AwiK suxwieAw ]
*He has placed Himself within the True Guru[/FONT]**[/FONT]**. So there should be no confusion about Guru, Satguru, or perfect Guru, we need to understand it accurately in the context it is used; now I am going to answer your questions one by one[/FONT]*
(quote[/FONT])[/FONT]
*A
*ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

*Question-1 [/FONT]**
Is Satguru here the Lord or the Granth sahib?
By default I would place it as Granth sahib.[/FONT]*
 Yes, doubtless, today Sikhs medium pf Him is guru granth sahib Ji


nwnk nwmu smwil qU gur kY hyiq Apwir ]5]20]53] (34-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru.[/FONT] 

*Question -2[/FONT]*
*
In the above line I shall prefer to place the meaning of Guru as the Lord HIMSELF*[/FONT]
*NO[/FONT]*
* or is there any possibility of making it look like Granth sahib.?[/FONT]*
*There is no question about it, it is about Guru, the Granth sahib ji/also known as Guru shabad; but remember, Guru cannot be limited to physical aspect only[/FONT].[/FONT]*
[/FONT]
*B.*
[/FONT]siqguir hir pRBu buiJAw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (39-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
[/FONT]The True Guru understands the Lord God. There is no other as Great as the Guru.

*If Satguru is Sabad guru and translation is correct, the meaning of 'true guru understands the Lord' shall have to be translated slightly in a different manner 
[/FONT]* *or will it mean literally that 'Granth sahib' understands the Lord God'. Seemingly I am not able to reconcile.[/FONT]*
*Do not use this clause “ Granth Sahib understands the Lord” Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib ji dispels all darkness and tears down the wall of falsehood if it is understood  and practiced right; Guru Granth Sahib ji is live display of Guru and enlightened ones experience of the Lord. Many people miss the meaning of Guru Seva, it is not only a physical acts in align to a special service but to live Guru Teachings. For example, if Sikhs strictly start living Guru Teachings of Guru Granth sahib ji, it means they are doing real Guru Seva; if they just do” matha take, do chaur” and live” mannmatt” lives, there is no Guru Seva, simply they are dreaming a foolish dream. Sikh must understand what is meant[/FONT]** by Guru Seva and  Guru Granth Sahib ji as Guru

Similarly the next line 'there is no other Great as guru ' shall also mean that there is no one as great Granth sahib . It should ,however, mean that No one is as great as Lord.[/FONT]*
*This statement is very contradictory, rephrase it.[/FONT]** Guru Granth Sahib is not Lord but medium of Lord. When it is said there is no equal to Guru, stress is on Guru’s only true way out as compared to other false claimers. There is no comparison of Guru and the Lord is sited here. So true Guru leads us to Him, so does Guru Granth Sahib ji[/FONT]*
ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਲੋਚਦੇ ਸੋ *ਸਤਿਗੁਰ* ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥
The angelic beings and the silent sages long for Him; the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||4|| 
ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ *ਸਤਿਗੁਰ* ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
The One Name is the Lord's Command; O Nanak, the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||5| (M-1)
*HERE IS A DIRECT DEFINITION BY GURU JI IN THIS REGARD:*
ਨਾਨਕ *ਸਤਿਗੁਰ* ਐਸਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜੋ ਸਭਸੈ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੦॥
O Nanak, know Him as the True Guru, who unites all with the Lord. ||10||M-1* Guru Granth Sahib does this all if followed and lived with high gravity of sincerity*
*Now back to the first question, in the following Guru vaak, Guru and Satguru are used for the medium( Guru/Satguru)*
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਉ *ਸਤਿਗੁਰ* ਵਿਟਹੁ ਸਦ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
The Perfect Guru has shown me that the Lord is always with me. I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||2|| M-4
* [/FONT]*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 3, 2008)

*Respected Pk70 ji,

Very many thanks for the pains that you have taken to answer, almost, step by step, the queries that were raised in the post-1. I am indeed grateful for the guidance  that would be useful in future as well. 

You have pointed out that these terms appear on account of the fact that Sabad Guru was compiled after the bani had been uttered. I have noted this and it may be the cause of not understanding the things in correct perspective. I shall take care of this in future.

Warm Regards*


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Question -2

Click to expand...

*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		

> *In the above line I shall prefer to place the meaning of Guru as the Lord HIMSELF[/FONT]*
> *NO[/FONT]*


 
PK70 Ji, Why not Lord?



http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html


			
				PK70 said:
			
		

> * Guru Granth Sahib is not Lord but medium of Lord. *


 

PK70 Ji, 
Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji says:

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਰਨਾ ॥ 
kar kirapaa raakhiou gur saranaa ||
In His Mercy, the Guru has kept me under His protection.
ਗੁਰਿ ਪਕਰਾਏ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨਾ ॥ 
gur pakaraaeae har kae charanaa ||
The Guru has attached me to the Lord's Feet.
*ਬੀਸ ਬਿਸੁਏ ਜਾ ਮਨ ਠਹਰਾਨੇ ॥ *
bees bisueae jaa man theharaanae ||
When the mind is totally held in check,
*ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਏਕੈ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੇ ॥੨॥ *
gur paarabreham eaekai hee jaanae ||2||
one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2||

Only after coming under Guru's Protection one can see that there is no difference between Guru and God. Guru shows this Truth Himself to His Sevak. And Guru Granth Sahib Ji Claims it several times. PK 70 Ji, As Sikh only listen to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, whose claim one should adhere to. 

How can you say Guru is not Lord, based on Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Teachings, and while explaining Gurbani to someone? It can only be your personal experience. *Because* Guru Ji is telling there is no distinction whatsoever PK70 Ji.

Guru Ji tells:
ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥ 
chouthhai peharai rain kai vanajaariaa mithraa har chalan vaelaa aadhee ||
In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord announces the time of departure.
ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥ 
kar saevahu pooraa sathiguroo vanajaariaa mithraa sabh chalee rain vihaadhee ||
Serve the Perfect True Guru, O my merchant friend; your entire life-night is passing away.
ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥ 
har saevahu khin khin dtil mool n karihu jith asathhir jug jug hovahu ||
Serve the Lord each and every instant-do not delay! You shall become eternal throughout the ages.
ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥ 
har saethee sadh maanahu raleeaa janam maran dhukh khovahu ||
Enjoy ecstasy forever with the Lord, and do away with the pains of birth and death.
*ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥* 
gur sathigur suaamee bhaedh n jaanahu jith mil har bhagath sukhaandhee ||
Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lord's devotional service.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥ 
kahu naanak praanee chouthhai peharai safalio rain bhagathaa dhee ||4||1||3||
Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. ||4||1||3||

*ਰਾਮ ਸੰਤ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਏਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਕਈ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਖ ਕਰੋਰੀ ॥ *
raam santh mehi bhaedh kishh naahee eaek jan kee mehi laakh karoree ||
Between the Lord and His Saint, there is no difference at all. Among hundreds of thousands and millions, there is scarcely one humble being.







ਜਬ ਇਨਿ ਅਪੁਨੋ ਬਾਧਿਓ ਮੋਹਾ ॥ 
jab ein apuno baadhhiou mohaa ||
When he entangles himself in emotional attachment,
ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਦਾ ਜਮਿ ਜੋਹਾ ॥ 
aavai jaae sadhaa jam johaa ||
he comes and goes in reincarnation, under the constant gaze of Death.
*ਜਬ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਭਰਮਾ ॥ *
jab eis thae sabh binasae bharamaa ||
But when all his doubts are removed,
*ਭੇਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥੪॥ *
bhaedh naahee hai paarabrehamaa ||4||
then there is no difference between him and the Supreme Lord God. ||4||




ਰਤਨਾ ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਬਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
rathanaa rathan padhaarathh bahu saagar bhariaa raam ||
The great ocean is full of the treasures of jewels upon jewels.
ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹਥਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
baanee gurabaanee laagae thinh hathh charriaa raam ||
Those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani, see them come into their hands.
ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹਥਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ 
gurabaanee laagae thinh hathh charriaa niramolak rathan apaaraa ||
This priceless, incomparable jewel comes into the hands of those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਤੋਲਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਰੇ ਭੰਡਾਰਾ ॥ 
har har naam atholak paaeiaa thaeree bhagath bharae bhanddaaraa ||
They obtain the immeasurable Name of the Lord, Har, Har; their treasure is overflowing with devotional worship.
ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਵਿਰੋਲਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹਮ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਇਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਅਨੂਪ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ 
samundh virol sareer ham dhaekhiaa eik vasath anoop dhikhaaee ||
I have churned the ocean of the body, and I have seen the incomparable thing come into view.
*ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਗ+ਵਿੰਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥* 
gur govindh guovindh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8||
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||




*ਬਡੇ ਭਾਗ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਅਪੁਨਾ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੁਰਾਰ ॥ *
baddae bhaag gur saevehi apunaa bhaedh naahee guradhaev muraar ||
The most fortunate ones serve their Guru; there is no difference between the Divine Guru and the Lord.
ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਾਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਮੁ ਜੋਹੈ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੭॥ 
thaa ko kaal naahee jam johai boojhehi anthar sabadh beechaar ||7||
The Messenger of Death cannot see those who come to realize within their minds the contemplative meditation of the Word of the Shabad. ||7||




ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਉ ਨ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥ 
jin gur saeviaa this bho n biaapai ||
One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.
ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥ 
jin gur saeviaa this dhukh n santhaapai ||
One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ 
naanak sodhhae sinmrith baedh ||
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.
*ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੪॥* 
paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||





ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥ 
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai avathaar oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.
ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਖ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਦੂਰਿ ਗਏ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਅਉ ॥ 
thin kae dhukh kottik dhoor geae mathhuraa jinh anmrith naam peeao ||
Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa.
*ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥ *
eih padhhath thae math chookehi rae man bhaedh bibhaedh n jaan beeao ||
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.
ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥ 
parathashh ridhai gur arajun kai har pooran breham nivaas leeao ||5||
The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||


*And there are much more Gurbani that points out that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE- SANT GURU LORD GOD all is one and the same. And this also indicated very clearly that any body with doubts in their minds about Guru Ji can make these distinctions not the true sevaks. He shows Himself to the sevaks that there is NO DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER.*

PK70 Ji, I hope my words are not hurting your feelings in any manner- if they are please accept my apologies. Distinction between God and Guru is only there when you are looking at Guru with manmat/doubts/falsehood. Clear your heart, let it get pierced with Gurbani- Waheguru Bless You PK70 Ji


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Guru Granth Sahib is not Lord but medium of Lord.


Click to expand...

http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html*http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.htmlhttp://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html

PK70 JI,

A suggestion to you from an old veer of yours: Read Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then follow each teaching yourself. Only after that make an effort to explain the ULTIMATE TRUTH to others. Otherwise you will be misleading others. Just a suggestion.


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## spnadmin (Jul 4, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> PK70 JI,
> 
> A suggestion to you from an old veer of yours: Read Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then follow each teaching yourself. Only after that make an effort to explain the ULTIMATE TRUTH to others. Otherwise you will be misleading others. Just a suggestion.



Honey22 ji

I submit for your careful consideration the following forum rules. In your case Forum Rule 1 and Forum Rules 3 and 3A should be reviewed. Please abide by them.

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*


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

My apologies. 

But I still stand by the suggestion I made. May sound harsh, but a truthfull one. No Hidden Agendas.

Good Luck.


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## spnadmin (Jul 4, 2008)

Thank you for your quick reply, Honey22. Forum members are slow to take offense.


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

Guru Ji suggest not to do the wrong deeds:


ਸਲਾਮੁ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਦੋਵੈ ਕਰੇ ਮੁੰਢਹੁ ਘੁਥਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
salaam jabaab dhovai karae mundtahu ghuthhaa jaae ||
One who offers both respectful greetings and rude refusal to his master, has gone wrong from the very beginning.
ਨਾਨਕ ਦੋਵੈ ਕੂੜੀਆ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਈ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
naanak dhovai koorreeaa thhaae n kaaee paae ||2||
O Nanak, both of his actions are false; he obtains no place in the Court of the Lord. ||2||
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
pourree ||
Pauree:
ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੀਐ ॥ 
jith saeviai sukh paaeeai so saahib sadhaa samhaaleeai ||
Serving Him, peace is obtained; meditate and dwell upon that Lord and Master forever.
ਜਿਤੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪਣਾ ਸਾ ਘਾਲ ਬੁਰੀ ਕਿਉ ਘਾਲੀਐ ॥ 
jith keethaa paaeeai aapanaa saa ghaal buree kio ghaaleeai ||
Why do you do such evil deeds, that you shall have to suffer so?
ਮੰਦਾ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕੀਚਈ ਦੇ ਲੰਮੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ ॥ 
mandhaa mool n keechee dhae lanmee nadhar nihaaleeai ||
Do not do any evil at all; look ahead to the future with foresight.
*ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤੇਵੇਹਾ ਪਾਸਾ ਢਾਲੀਐ ॥ *
*jio saahib naal n haareeai thaevaehaa paasaa dtaaleeai ||*
*So throw the dice in such a way, that you shall not lose with your Lord and Master.*
ਕਿਛੁ ਲਾਹੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਘਾਲੀਐ ॥੨੧॥ 
kishh laahae oupar ghaaleeai ||21||
Do those deeds which shall bring you profit. ||21||


When a person is on the wrong path:

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਦੇਖੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
har kee bhagath n dhaekhai jaae ||
He does not go to see where the Lord is being worshipped.
ਮਾਰਗੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਅਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
maarag shhodd amaarag paae ||
He abandons the Lord's Path, and takes the wrong path.
ਮੂਲਹੁ ਭੂਲਾ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
moolahu bhoolaa aavai jaae ||
He forgets the Primal Lord God, and is caught in the cycle of reincarnation.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਡਾਰਿ ਲਾਦਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
anmrith ddaar laadh bikh khaae ||2||
He throws away the Ambrosial Nectar, and gathers poison to eat. ||2||


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

Inspire Others' to Read Gurbani
Inspire Others to  take Guru's Advice
Inspire Others to develop True Devotion
Inspire Others to Walk the Path


ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤੂੰ ਲੇਹਿ ਇਆਨੇ ॥ 
gur kee math thoon laehi eiaanae ||
Take the Guru's advice, you ignorant fool;
ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਹੁ ਡੂਬੇ ਸਿਆਨੇ ॥ 
bhagath binaa bahu ddoobae siaanae ||
without devotion, even the clever have drowned.
ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੀਤ ॥ 
har kee bhagath karahu man meeth ||
Worship the Lord with heart-felt devotion, my friend;
ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੋਇ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੋ ਚੀਤ ॥ 
niramal hoe thumhaaro cheeth ||
your consciousness shall become pure.
ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
charan kamal raakhahu man maahi ||
Enshrine the Lord's Lotus Feet in your mind;
ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 
janam janam kae kilabikh jaahi ||
the sins of countless lifetimes shall depart.
ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ 
aap japahu avaraa naam japaavahu ||
Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it as well.
ਸੁਨਤ ਕਹਤ ਰਹਤ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ 
sunath kehath rehath gath paavahu ||
Hearing, speaking and living it, emancipation is obtained.
ਸਾਰ ਭੂਤ ਸਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
saar bhooth sath har ko naao ||
The essential reality is the True Name of the Lord.
ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਉ ॥੬॥ 
sehaj subhaae naanak gun gaao ||6||
With intuitive ease, O Nanak, sing His Glorious Praises. ||6||


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## pk70 (Jul 4, 2008)

(quote Honey22)
*Originally Posted by PK70 *
*(Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text)Guru Granth (Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text) Sahib is not Lord but medium of Lord.*

PK70 JI,

A suggestion to you from an old veer of yours: Read Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then follow each teaching yourself.\

* With all due respect, How do you imagine that others than you do not read Guru Granth Sahib Ji? There are some usages in there and some curious members ask questions about them, is it against Guru Granth Sahib ji to answer them? Or is it right way to snub them by saying “do not play game of logic?” That is not what Guru Granth Sahib inspires. No body ever could have seen glittering beautiful stars without opening eyes or without clear sky.*

   Only after that make an effort to explain the ULTIMATE TRUTH to others.

*Who am I to explain Ultimate Truth? That was not even subject of my post. Why imaginary ideas are disturbing you? Who is “Sahib” in your quote assigned to my Id in green words above? There is only one Sahib, rest is His manifestation(.*ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਪਰਾਣ ਹਹਿ ਕਿਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰੀਐ ॥)
* When “Sahib “used for Guru, it is sheer honor, fourth Nanak clearly states” if some one respect me it is your praise O Lord, not mine” Guru ji has shown a path to the Ultimate Truth, and we become hindrance in others efforts when we just like to mock at others or reduce ourselves to worship only medium and start shutting up others who like to prepare themselves before walking on the path.. First Mehal broke all chains of superficial worshiping of Sargun Form and freed us to contemplate on HIM only.  Why new idea is cooked up? Guru kee pooja and Guru kee Seva is living Guru’s teachings, it has nothing to do with ritual Seva or worshipping.*
   Otherwise you will be misleading others. Just a suggestion.
    Guru Ji suggest not to do the wrong deeds:
*Honey 22 ji, I am not here to lead any one, what to speak of misleading; wrong deed is that which comes out of imagination, Gurbani is revealed, without understanding it, there is no chance of progression. Guru needs to understand before worshiping the Guru otherwise boat will be drowned right at the start.” Naam Japavo” to whom? Who do not understand “Naam” By merely saying” Naam Japo” no one can say” Guru ji’s” advice is put in practice. Even read Guru ji's Shabad how step by step Guru ji elobrate routine of a Gursikh. Have you forgot" Gun Vaddiaaeean Vichaar"?
[/FONT]**Now let’s look at Guru ji’s advice as per your quote*
 [/FONT]  ਸਲਾਮੁ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਦੋਵੈ ਕਰੇ ਮੁੰਢਹੁ ਘੁਥਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
salaam jabaab dhovai karae mundtahu ghuthhaa jaae ||
One who offers both respectful greetings and rude refusal to his master, has gone wrong from the very beginning.
*Here Guru ji is talking about “AkaalPurakh’s Hukm” If as per His Hukm, good things come, persons are happy but when bad happens, they complain, that is called” disobeying Akaal Purakh” So if one claims to be His Daas( Servant) and keep complaining about what happens under His Ordinance, such persons are wrong right from the beginning because how such people can develop true love/unconditional love for HIM. Where are you applying this Guru Vaak Veer ji?
*ਨਾਨਕ ਦੋਵੈ ਕੂੜੀਆ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਈ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
naanak dhovai koorreeaa thhaae n kaaee paae ||2||
O Nanak, both of his actions are false; he obtains no place in the Court of the Lord. ||2||
*So hint is at hypocrisy, saying I believe in His Ordinance but keep complaining. Saying I follow Guru but keep complaining” I do simran but why I am not rewarded …”Such persons, as per Guru ji, has no chance to find a place in Court of Sahib.
*ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
pourree ||
Pauree:
ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੀਐ ॥ 
jith saeviai sukh paaeeai so saahib sadhaa samhaaleeai ||
Serving Him, peace is obtained; meditate and dwell upon that Lord and Master forever.

*WHO is Sahib here? Akaal Purakh. Where is any thing  that is against this advice in my post?
*ਜਿਤੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪਣਾ ਸਾ ਘਾਲ ਬੁਰੀ ਕਿਉ ਘਾਲੀਐ ॥ 
jith keethaa paaeeai aapanaa saa ghaal buree kio ghaaleeai ||
Why do you do such evil deeds, that you shall have to suffer so?
*Here advice has vast application: Why one should not do bad deeds since they will bring that back to us. What I have done wrong Honey 22 ji?  Is it because I did not write” Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib?” Or I haven’t called Guru Granth Sahib ji GOD*?
*By merely saying”dhan dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji” doesn’t mean one is showing more respect to Guru ji, it comes down to how much one obeys Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Honey 22 jio!
*ਮੰਦਾ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕੀਚਈ ਦੇ ਲੰਮੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ ॥ 
mandhaa mool n keechee dhae lanmee nadhar nihaaleeai ||
Do not do any evil at all; look ahead to the future with foresight.
*Again, seekers are advised to stay on virtuous path, that is why we need Guru since Guru ji prepares us for Ultimate Truth. Understanding Guru teachings is very important.[/FONT]
[/FONT]ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤੇਵੇਹਾ ਪਾਸਾ ਢਾਲੀਐ ॥ [/FONT]*
*jio saahib naal n haareeai thaevaehaa paasaa dtaaleeai ||*
 [/FONT]  *jio saahib naal n haareeai thaevaehaa paasaa dtaaleeai ||*
*So throw the dice in such a way, that you shall not lose with your Lord and Master.*
*Here translation is way away from Guru Message.*
*Sahib= Akaal Purakh, Hareeai= should not fail. Teveha= same way as it comes. Dhalleeai= mould mind according to His will. *
* Guru ji says that there are given test( His Ordinance)s to us, we should pass them, whatever way HE keeps us, happily we should accept that and never question HIM, questioning His ordinance will lead us to defeat*.* Never think we are playing dice with Him to defeat Him as translator claims. This Guru Vaak is in aligning to the First Guru Vaak.*

ਕਿਛੁ ਲਾਹੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਘਾਲੀਐ ॥੨੧॥ 
kishh laahae oupar ghaaleeai ||21||
Do those deeds which shall bring you profit. ||21||
*Here deeds are considered profitable spiritually, means being in love with Him and literally live in His love, will bring rewards of His realization ( if He bestows His grace) since all “mannmatt” makes us losers.
*
When a person is on the wrong path:

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਦੇਖੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
har kee bhagath n dhaekhai jaae ||
He does not go to see where the Lord is being worshipped.
*Hint is about “sadh Sangat” because stray person gets involved in other company where  satisfying of mind's preferences are priority
*ਮਾਰਗੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਅਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
maarag shhodd amaarag paae ||
He abandons the Lord's Path, and takes the wrong path.
*So such person leaves True path and get involved in wrong one.
*ਮੂਲਹੁ ਭੂਲਾ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
moolahu bhoolaa aavai jaae ||
He forgets the Primal Lord God, and is caught in the cycle of reincarnation.
*That is the end the stray person meets, remains in duality and cycles.
*ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਡਾਰਿ ਲਾਦਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
anmrith ddaar laadh bikh khaae ||2||
He throws away the Ambrosial Nectar, and gathers poison to eat. ||2||
*Choosing personal preferences over His Simran/Love keeps him in misery.*
*My question to you,, why have you quoted this shabad? What is an application of it here in context of my post? If you knew, you wouldn’t have quoted it because I just tried to explain that Guru ji is medium, how it makes you think that I am doing all the above and you need to awake me from my slumber after reading my post?  Problem is very simple, instead of understanding Guru Shabad, it has become a fashion for some Sikhs just to quote Gurbani. That itself shows how desperately they need Guru ji’s help.*
     Honey 22, you have given your advice in four sentence
  1.Inspire Others' to Read Gurbani
*Sikh 80 put a question, you just snubbed him, was that your effort to inspire him to read Gurbani as you boasts about?*
Inspire Others to take Guru's Advice
*What Guru ji’s advice you have given, you have quoted a shabad without any context. Talking and living are two totally opposite practices, one is shallow the later is full with decorating truth.*
Inspire Others to develop True Devotion
*Elaborate it, what is true devotion? May be numerous SPN members do not know about it yet? If studying Gurbani and trying to follow it by practicing is not enough, what is left out in this regard then, please enlighten us, teach us with your wonderful experience.
*Inspire Others to Walk the Path
*Namjap ji Humbly asked you very simple questions, why couldn’t you elaborate your views about” the path” That was best chance to quote Guru Bachan. Your next quote of Guru Shabad has been copied and pasted without any context. Gurbani is Guru, living Gurbani is a true way of accepting Gurbani as Guru. *


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

*When Do/Did Bani Need A Context?*


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

Bani is Nirankaar/Lord/God/Guru/Saint   ALL THE SAME veer PK70 Ji. 

If a veer of yours will tell somebody that you know is incorrect information, will not you tell him to stop and learn the correct thing and then talk about it- That's all I did Veer PK70 Ji.


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## pk70 (Jul 4, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> *When Do/Did Bani Need A Context?
> 
> *



*Gurbani is revealed, addressed to different levels of people from simple minded to sophisticated minds though message is the same. So Gurbani needs a context to say Guru Message, when stone worshiping was context, it addressed that, when Yogi were in context, they were addressed.  On one point it is advocated"japo Gurbani" at the other point, denying to understand Gurbani and saying Gurbani is Nirankar/ Lord itself, obviously, we dare to disobey our own Guru who advises us to use" Akal" given by HIM.
*


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## pk70 (Jul 4, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> Bani is Nirankaar/Lord/God/Guru/Saint   ALL THE SAME veer PK70 Ji.
> *When it is said by Guru ji" Bani Nirankar Hai" Guru ji doesn't say, do not do "Vichar" because Gurbani is Lord, that is what is being cooked up by some, Guru Message is not that Honey 22 jio*
> If a veer of yours will tell somebody that you know is incorrect information,
> *What is the incorrect information, state it instead of beating around the Bush Verr Honey 22 jio*
> will not you tell him to stop and learn the correct thing and then talk about it- That's all I did Veer PK70 Ji.


*You did nothing save for wording out your own mind Veer ji. I haven't seen any thing you said through Guru ji. Calling all HIM is fine, then worshiping all as HIM is not what Guru says, Honey 22 jio. Hard is to fall in love with HIM, easy is to worship all. Listen what Guru ji says" jini Naam dhiaaeea, gye mushkit ghaal" stress is  on HIM, Guru ji doesn't say" all are Him, so dhyaao all"  Guru ji introduces to us ocean, why some are trying to cover it up with own illusions?*


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## Honey22 (Jul 4, 2008)

Wow



hir kY Bjin kaun kaun n qwry ]
Kg qn mIn qn imRg qn brwh qn swDU sMig auDwry ]1] rhwau ]
dyv kul dYq kul jK´ ikMnr nr swgr auqry pwry ]
jo jo Bjnu krY swDU sMig qw ky dUK ibdwry ]1]
kwm kroD mhw ibiKAw rs ien qy Bey inrwry ]
dIn dieAwl jpih kruxw mY nwnk sd bilhwry ]2]9]13]

Malaar, Fifth Mehl:
Vibrating and meditating on the Lord, who has not been carried across?
Those reborn into the body of a bird, the body of a fish, the body of a deer, and the body of a bull - in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, they are saved. ||1||Pause||
The families of gods, the families of demons, titans, celestial singers and human beings are carried across the ocean.
Whoever meditates and vibrates on the Lord in the Saadh Sangat - his pains are taken away. ||1||
Sexual desire, anger and the pleasures of terrible corruption - he keeps away from these.
He meditates on the Lord, Merciful to the meek, the Embodiment of Compassion; Nanak is forever a sacrifice to Him. ||2||9||13||


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## pk70 (Jul 4, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> Wow
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Honey 22 jio
Glad to hear from Guru ji through your quote, my question, who( Sikh) dares to question that ever?  I quoted Guru Vaak" jini Naam dhiaaeea gye mushkat ghaal" doesnt this Guru Shabad conveys the same message?  Remember Guru ji directly also addresses many other things as well to prepare us for this" Only HE has a Mukaam( permanat stay) we dont( M-1), so contemplate on Him, Get rid of lust, anger, ego and greed, Love Him as water loves milk..( M-1)." Guru ji inspires us to contemplate on Him as well as get rid of trash society puts in us.*


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## Honey22 (Jul 5, 2008)

Falsehood(Praising OneSelf) doesn't do any good:

ਜਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਣਾਇਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਮੁਹ ਫਿਕੇ ॥ 
j bin sathigur saevae aap ganaaeidhae thin andhar koorr fitt fitt muh fikae ||
One who does not serve the True Guru, and who praises himself, is filled with falsehood within. Cursed, cursed is his ugly face.


Some try to sound like Guru Ji and have jealousy with those who quote Gurbani(because Gurbani tells the Truth that is totally opposite to their false preachings):


ਤੂ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਅਤੁਲੁ ਕਿਉ ਤੁਲੀਐ ॥ 
thoo vaeparavaahu athhaahu hai athul kio thuleeai ||
You are carefree, unfathomable and immeasurable; how can You be measured?
ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਜਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਦੇ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੀਐ ॥ 
sae vaddabhaagee j thudhh dhhiaaeidhae jin sathigur mileeai ||
Those who have met the True Guru and who meditate on You are very fortunate.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥ 
sathigur kee baanee sath saroop hai gurabaanee baneeai ||
The Word of the True Guru's Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੀਸੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਚੁ ਪਿਚੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਝੜਿ ਪੜੀਐ ॥ 
sathigur kee reesai hor kach pich boladhae sae koorriaar koorrae jharr parreeai ||
Jealously emulating the True Guru, some others may speak of good and bad, but the false are destroyed by their falsehood.
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਝਖਿ ਮਰਦੇ ਕੜੀਐ ॥੯॥ 
ounhaa andhar hor mukh hor hai bikh maaeiaa no jhakh maradhae karreeai ||9||
Deep within them is one thing, and in their mouths is another; they suck in the poison of Maya, and then they painfully waste away. ||9||


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## Honey22 (Jul 5, 2008)

Anger, Falsehood, Ego and Jealousy does not stay in a body blessed by Guru Ji. 

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਸਰਤ ਸਦਾ ਖੁਆਰੀ ॥ 
har bisarath sadhaa khuaaree ||
Forgetting the Lord, one is ruined forever.
ਤਾ ਕਉ ਧੋਖਾ ਕਹਾ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਓਟ ਤੁਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
thaa ko dhhokhaa kehaa biaapai jaa ko outt thuhaaree || rehaao ||
How can anyone be deceived, who has Your Support, O Lord? ||Pause||


Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan


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## Sikh80 (Jul 5, 2008)

*Respected Namjap ji /pk70 ji/aad ji/Honey22 ji

I was searching for some article on 'Bani Nirankaar hey'.

1.Would it mean that each and every word is Nirankaar or the spirit behind the message should be taken as that may lead one to Nirankaar/Lord. ?

I feel that 'Bani Nirankaar hey' should mean that we should follow this  after  contemplating  the same. 

2. Is it also mandatory that we should be bound by the opinion of an y  individual  in this regard.? 
I think the  same lines of bani may convey differently to different person. In such a situation, should we keep on blaming other persons and keep on thrusting our own opinions as a judgment ?
[it is likely to cause irritation and we may not be able to do justice to bani esp. when we are discussing things on the internet, hence we may avoid any kind of endless discussion and debate.]

What do you think.?

3.We all have the right to differ on occasions and it is perfectly o.k. for us and we should carry on in a pleasant manner after analyzing as to what that we are writing may not be the cause of pain to the others who are also participating in the discussion.
We may differ but there should be a 'point of halt' and one should be intelligent enough to find out as to when one should stop in the overall interest. All members have equal right of presenting the views but one should know the limits and should exercise due diligence in these matters  and should not try to monopolize the discussion.   

It is only in this manner that we can proceed in any healthy discussion.

Kindly opine when you have time.*

*Regards*


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## spnadmin (Jul 5, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

All of your questions are on point and your desire to discuss Bani and issues you raise about Bani are fair. Because I am moderating this thread, I am unable to reply to any of your questions. I am not sure that I have sufficient depth of understanding to do so anyway.


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## Honey22 (Jul 5, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Respected Namjap ji /pk70 ji/aad ji/Honey22 ji*
> 
> *I was searching for some article on 'Bani Nirankaar hey'.*
> 
> ...


 
*Thanks for raising all these points.*

*I will sit in Guru's Sharan, and will not question or doubt my Guru -He is the Leader, He is the Karta, He is Waheguru, He is within and Without, He is the ULTIMATE.*


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## Honey22 (Jul 5, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> All of your questions are on point and your desire to discuss Bani and issues you raise about Bani are fair. Because I am moderating this thread, I am unable to reply to any of your questions. I am not sure that I have sufficient depth of understanding to do so anyway.


 


			
				aad0002 said:
			
		

> *issues you raise about Bani are fair*


 
*How can a Gurbani follower has issues about Gurbani? HOW CAN!!!!!!!*
*Isn't Bani OUR GURU?*
*Does anybody else better than GURU exist? *
*It is strange aad0002 Ji, "ISSUES ABOUT GURBANI"!!!!!!!!!!!! *

*Satguru Ki Agyaa Sat Sat Kar Mano Gursikho*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 5, 2008)

*Respected namjap ji/Pk 70 ji 

I had started this thread and I am completely satisfied with the answer of pk70 ji and do not need any further clarification in this regard. I am thankful to all who participated in replying to that I posted in my First post. I am also grateful to Vijaydeep ji for his contribution. I am equally grateful to Honey22 ji for showing the path that should lead us to spiritual development and bring clarity to various unexplored areas.


In future if I have doubt I shall post again.


Wjkk Wjkf*


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## Honey22 (Jul 5, 2008)

Todays Hukamnaama from Siri Darbaar Sahib Ji reminded me again to share something:

ਜੋ ਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਛੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਅਚਰਜੁ ਕਾਹੋ ॥ 
जो जनु भाउ भगति कछु जानै ता कउ अचरजु काहो ॥ 
Jo jan bẖā&shy;o bẖagaṯ kacẖẖ jānai ṯā ka&shy;o acẖraj kāho. 
What surprise is there for the man, who knows even something of the love and meditation of God? 
ਉਸ ਬੰਦੇ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਹੜੀ ਹੈਰਾਨੀ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਅਤੇ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਨੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਕੁ ਭੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੈ। 

ਜਿਉ ਜਲੁ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਪੈਸਿ ਨ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਤਿਉ ਢੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਜੁਲਾਹੋ ॥੧॥ 
जिउ जलु जल महि पैसि न निकसै तिउ ढुरि मिलिओ जुलाहो ॥१॥ 
Ji&shy;o jal jal meh pais na niksai ṯi&shy;o dẖur mili&shy;o julāho. ||1|| 
As water falling in water, separates not again, so the so the weaver, softening down, has blended with the Lord. 
ਜਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਾਣੀ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਮੁੜ ਵੱਖਰਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ, ਏਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਜੁਲਾਹਾ ਕੋਮਲ ਹੋ, ਸਾਈਂ ਨਾਲ ਅਭੇਦ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। 

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਗਾ ਮੈ ਤਉ ਮਤਿ ਕਾ ਭੋਰਾ ॥ 
हरि के लोगा मै तउ मति का भोरा ॥ 
Har kė logā mai ṯa&shy;o maṯ kā bẖorā. 
O men of God, I am mentally a simpleton. 
ਹੇ ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਬੰਦਿਓ! ਮੈਂ ਅਕਲੋਂ ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਲਾ ਹਾਂ। 

ਜਉ ਤਨੁ ਕਾਸੀ ਤਜਹਿ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਰਮਈਐ ਕਹਾ ਨਿਹੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
जउ तनु कासी तजहि कबीरा रमईऐ कहा निहोरा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ja&shy;o ṯan kāsī ṯajeh kabīrā rama&shy;ī&shy;ai kahā nihorā. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
If Kabir abandons His body at Banaras, What obligation owes he to God according to the Hindu belief he is emancipated of his own)? Pause. 
ਜੇਕਰ ਕਬੀਰ ਬਨਾਰਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਪਣੀ ਦੇਹ ਛੱਡ ਦੇਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਕੀ ਮੁਛੰਦਗੀ ਧਰਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਿਉਂ ਜੋ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਉਹ ਖ਼ੁਦ-ਬ-ਖ਼ੁਦ ਹੀ ਮੁਕਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ? ਠਹਿਰਾਓ। 

ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਲੋਈ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
कहतु कबीरु सुनहु रे लोई भरमि न भूलहु कोई ॥ 
Kahaṯ Kabīr sunhu rė lo&shy;ī bẖaram na bẖūlahu ko&shy;ī. 
Says Kabir, hear, O people, let no one go astray under any illusion. 
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਰਵਣ ਕਰੋ, ਹੇ ਲੋਕੋ! ਕੋਈ ਜਣਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਸ਼ੱਕ ਸੁਬੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੁਰਾਹੇ ਨਾਂ ਪਵੇ। 

ਕਿਆ ਕਾਸੀ ਕਿਆ ਊਖਰੁ ਮਗਹਰੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਜਉ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥੩॥ 
किआ कासी किआ ऊखरु मगहरु रामु रिदै जउ होई ॥२॥३॥ 
Ki&shy;ā kāsī ki&shy;ā ūkẖar maghar rām riḏai ja&shy;o ho&shy;ī. ||2||3|| 
What difference is there between Banaras and barren Maghar, if the Pervading God be within the mind? 
ਬਨਾਰਸ ਅਤੇ ਉਜਾੜ ਮਗਹਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਰਕ ਹੈ, ਜੇਕਰ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਲ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੋਵੇ? 


Just sharing Gurbani. The treasure given by Guru Ji- He claims that It grows more and more when we use It more and more.

Tot na aavay vaddado jaaee


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## spnadmin (Jul 5, 2008)

Honey ji

Thank you for asking for clarification. Rather than leave you wondering here is the definition I am using, An issue is* A point or matter of discussion,  The essential point; crux.


* This is the informal definition.*   A personal problem or emotional disorder.* I was not using the informal definition. *

It is always a good idea to ask for clarification in a discussion rather than to jump to conclusions. :yes:
*


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## pk70 (Jul 5, 2008)

*Sikh 80 ji, aad0002 Ji,*
*Any question about understanding Gurbani is not questioning or doubting Gurbani; if any feels so, it is pity that Guru Message has been missed as per His Hukm. I am going to support this idea with the help of our Glorious Guru jian. Read on*
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਤ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਤ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਮ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
Pauri. Blessed! blessed! is my Satguru, the True person, meeting whom I have obtained peace. Blessed! blessed! is my Satguru, the person, meeting whom I have attained the Lord's meditation. 
ਸਾਡਾ ਸਤਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਧੰਨ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਮਿਲਿਆਂ ਸਾਡੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਠੰਡ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਜਿਸਦੇ ਮਿਲਿਆਂ ਅਸਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਲੱਭੀ ਹੈ। 
ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਵੈਰੀ ਮਿਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਸਭ ਸਮ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ 
Auspicious! auspicious! is my True Guru, the Lord's devotee, serving whom I have come to profess love for the God's Name. Sublime, sublime is my True Guru, the Lord's divine, who has made me see the foe and friend with the same-eye. 
ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਭਗਤ ਸਾਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਧੰਨ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਅਸਾਂ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਬਿਰਤੀ ਜੋੜੀ ਹੈ; ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਸਾਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਵੈਰੀ ਕੀਹ ਤੇ ਸਜਨ ਕੀਹ-ਸਭ ਵਾਲ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਏਕਤਾ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ (ਨਾਲ ਵੇਖਣ ਦੀ ਜਾਚ) ਸਿਖਾਈ ਹੈ। 
ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਉ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਬਣਾਈ ॥੧੯॥ 
Praiseworthy! Praise worthy! is the True Guru, my friend, who has make me embrace love for the Lord's Name
ਸਾਡਾ ਸੱਜਣ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਧੰਨ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨਾਲ ਸਾਡਾ ਪਿਆਰ ਬਣਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ।੧੯। 
*In the above Pouri Satguru ji is defining charismatic guidance of Guru who enables the seekers to understand HIM and experiencing HIS presence. Greatness of Guru becomes so high even words are not enough to describe Guru’s greatness. Guru* *seva, here is not mere physical activity but following Guru and living as Guru guides. Any one if continues to slander others and claim to be true follower of Guru ji, is simply doesn’t know what Guru ji says.
*
*Guru ji himself questions Hippocratic approach of people who cannot progress further from “matha tek” in the following Guru Shabad. “ only Matha takna, or saying” Guru Dhan hai, Guru God hai” is not enough as per Guru ji, note down the word” dithyaan” visiting and bowing” Why Guru ji is saying so? Answer lies in last Vaak of this Shalok. Guru ji totally disapproves ritual activities, Guru wants “attention” not that bragging and boasting of being true devotee. With attention, Guru sculptures the mind of the seeker to be totally imbued with the Creator which is more important than any statements made by the devotee about personal observations. Target of Guru is dirt of ego of the devotee, if it( ego ) is there, visit to the Guru, hearing of Guru Shabad is useless.*
*Please enjoy Guru's declaration in this context*
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ 
Slok 3rd Guru. All the mortals, that there are, of the world, behold the true Guru. By merely seeing the Guru, one is not emancipated, until one reflects not on the Guru's hymns. His filth of ego is removed not, nor is the love for the Name implanted. 

ਜਿਤਨਾ ਇਹ ਸਾਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹੈ (ਇਸ ਵਿਚ) ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਦਰਸਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਪਰ) ਨਿਰਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ, ਜਦ ਤਾਈਂ ਜੀਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ, (ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਅਹੰਕਾਰ (-ਰੂਪ ਮਨ ਦੀ) ਮੈਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਤਰਦੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣਦਾ। 
*Now read the following*
॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
Gurmukẖ baṇī barahm hai sabaḏ milāvā ho*ė. 
The Exalted Guru's Word is God Himself and it is through Word that man obtains union with God. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਤੂ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੬੩॥ 
Nānak nām samāl ṯū jiṯ sėvi*ai sukẖ ho*ė. ||4||30||63|| 
O Nanak! Remember thee God's Name, by serving whom, thou shalt obtain peace. 
*Look at the first Guru Vaak, why Bani is honored as Braham? Answer is in” shabad milava hoe” Gurbani is medium, through Gurbani, Braham, the Lord is met, and systematically it prepares the soul for its Creator. Directly Guru ji addresses to the seeker that the only way out of happiness is NAAM/ Love for HIM Guru ji never meant the devotees to be stuck with one word, Guru ji keeps giving explanation of every point he uses as a part of his guidance as per His Ordinance. Now please look at the follow Guiru bachan, here Guru ji goes further how it all works*
Ga*oṛī mehlā 5. 
[/FONT]Gauri 5th Guru.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਿਦ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ 
[/FONT]Gur kā sabaḏ riḏ anṯar ḏẖārai. 
[/FONT]He who places Guru's teaching within his heart,[/FONT] 
*What is meant by this? In simple words, one needs to live Guru teaching*
[/FONT]ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਸੰਗੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥ 
[/FONT]Pancẖ janā si*o sang nivārai. 
[/FONT]severs connection with the five passions,[/FONT] 
*How? To battle the five primal negative forces and win. In the next Guru Vaak, it is made more clear what Guru ji wants from the follower*
[/FONT]ਦਸ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਵਾਸਿ ॥ 
[/FONT]Ḏas inḏrī kar rākẖai vās. 
[/FONT]and keeps under his control the ten (five sensory and five motor) organs.[/FONT] 
*If this way Guru teachings are practiced, look what Guru ji declares as a fruit of His bliss
*[/FONT]ਤਾ ਕੈ ਆਤਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧॥ 
[/FONT]Ŧā kai āṯmai ho*ė pargās. ||1|| 
[/FONT]Within his mind, the Divine Light shines.[/FONT] 
 [/FONT]  *Now lets ponder over that Guru Shabad which is misunderstood by many and sticking in quagmire is inevitable unless Guru ji is not understood. Kindly read the complete Guru Shabad to understand Guru Message*
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰਮੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਏਇ ॥੧॥ 
Salok mehlā 3. vāhu vāhu baṇī nirankār hai ṯis jėvad avar na ko*ė. vāhu vāhu agam athāhu hai vāhu vāhu sacẖā so*ė. vāhu vāhu vėparvāhu hai vāhu vāhu karė so ho*ė. vāhu vāhu amriṯ nām hai gurmukẖ pāvai ko*ė. vāhu vāhu karmī pā*ī*ai āp ḏa*i*ā kar ḏė*ė. Nānak vāhu vāhu gurmukẖ pā*ī*ai an*ḏin nām la*ė*ė. ||1|| 
Slok 3rd Guru. Wah! Wah! (wonderful) are the words which denote the formless Lord. There is none so great as He. Wonderful! wonderful! is the Inaccessible and Unfathomable Lord. Hail! hail! unto Him, the True One. Self-dependent is the Lord Master and whatever He does, that comes to pass. Blessed! blessed! is the Nectar - Name which a few holy men obtain. The Lord's praise, man obtains through His grace, and showing mercy, He Himself bestows it. Nanak, by remembering the Name through the Guru, day and night, the wonderful Lord is obtained. 
*In the First guru Vaak, “ Tis jevad awr n koe” is addressed to The Lord, then in the following Guru Vaakas, His praise goes on. In the second Guru Vaak, His infinity is sung, in the third one, His being “ beparvah” from all as every thing is in His Ordinance. In the fourth one, His Naam is praised as nectar which is achieved by a few Gurmukh. In fifth Guru Vaak, importance of His grace is praised, in the last Guru Vaak, again Guru ji stresses how Gurmukh obtains Him by contemplating on HIM. *
*In this Guru Shabad, Wah Wah Bani” Bani is praised as it denotes the Formless, Gurbani’s denoting force is praised. In the same manner, Guru ji is also becomes like Nirankar but the Lord remains above of all. Gurbani is revealed by Him, It is Him who puts His power in the Guru. Here is admission by Guru ji how Guru becomes revered force, reducing Akaal Purakh to ones own imagination is pretty  much  deep abyss of ignorance. Please enjoy following Guru Bachan dispelling all darkness human mind creates by being ignorant about THE ULTIMATE TRUTH*
ਗੁਰ ਵੇਖਣ ਕਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਲੋਚੈ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਜਗਤਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵਹਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
all long to see the Guru. The world of nine continents bows before him. Thine ownself Thou hast places in the True Guru and Thou Thyself has bedecked the Guru, O Lord. My Creator Thou Thyself adorest the True Guru and causest others to adore him. 

(ਇਹ ਬਰਕਤਾਂ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ) ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂਘਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਨਵਾਂ ਖੰਡਾਂ (ਦੇ ਜੀਵ) ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਵਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਿਚ ਲੁਕਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ। ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ) ਵਡਿਆਈ ਕਰਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ।


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## Honey22 (Jul 5, 2008)

Gurbani claims that Second Love is a disease. Duality is poison.

*ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਦੂਜੀ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਗਿ ॥*
jinee naam visaariaa dhoojee kaarai lag ||
Those who have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are attached to affairs of duality.




isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ]
kWieAw swDY aurD qpu krY ivchu haumY n jwie ]
AiDAwqm krm jy kry nwmu n kb hI pwie ]
gur kY sbid jIvqu mrY hir nwmu vsY min Awie ]1]
suix mn myry Bju sqgur srxw ]
gur prswdI CutIAY ibKu Bvjlu sbid gur qrxw ]1] rhwau ]
*qRY gux sBw Dwqu hY dUjw Bwau ivkwru ]*
*pMifqu pVY bMDn moh bwDw nh bUJY ibiKAw ipAwir ]*
*sqguir imilAY iqRkutI CUtY cauQY pid mukiq duAwru ]2]*
gur qy mwrgu pweIAY cUkY mohu gubwru ]
sbid mrY qw auDrY pwey moK duAwru ]
gur prswdI imil rhY scu nwmu krqwru ]3]
iehu mnUAw Aiq sbl hY Cfy n ikqY aupwie ]
dUjY Bwie duKu lwiedw bhuqI dyie sjwie ]
nwnk nwim lgy sy aubry haumY sbid gvwie ]4]18]51]


Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within.
You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. ||1||
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||
Everything under the influence of the three qualities shall perish; the love of duality is corrupting.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read the scriptures, but they are trapped in the bondage of emotional attachment. In love with evil, they do not understand.
Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and in the fourth state, the Door of Liberation is attained. ||2||
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.
If one dies through the Shabad, then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.
By Guru's Grace, one remains blended with the True Name of the Creator. ||3||
This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it just by trying.
In the love of duality, people suffer in pain, condemned to terrible punishment.
O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished. ||4||18||51||


Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on GuruGaddi to Dhan Guru Angad Dev Ji. Baba Budda Ji douted Guru Ji's decision, he always thought himself to be the most Intellegent fellow(that's why he was called Budda Ji(name given to him by Dhan Guru Nanak Ji)), and he always kept on measuring his seva compared to bhai lehna Ji. In his mind he always thought that he should be the next Guru. So full of doubts and under the fire of irritation the most intellegent fellow got very upset. Guru Ji's Hukam was so irritating for him. He wanted to be the next Guru. He could not have the courage to question it directly to Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But as he always thought very low of bhai Lehna Ji(Dhan Guru Angad Dev Ji), he decided to scrutnise Him. Filled with anger he questioned Guru Ji- WHY YOU? WHY NOT ME? I did as much seva and worship as much you did- WHY NOT ME? Guru Ji loves me more than you, he calls me budda, then now when it is time for Guruship HOW  CAN YOU BE THE BEST NOW?
Dhan Guru Angad Dev Ji made baba budda Ji sit down and then clamly asked him- What did you think of Dhan Guru Nanak Ji while performing seva and worship. Baba budda Ji answered-He is Guru Ji, who will lead me to God, I have great respect for this man. But whatever He has done now is not right. I deserve GuruShip more than you.
And in return he asked Guru Ji the same question-What did you think of Dhan Guru Nanak Ji while performing seva and worship. Dhan Guru Angad Dev Ji told him-For me Guru Nanak is God.

After listening to these words, baba budda Ji fell in Dhan Guru Angad Dev Ji's Charan Kanwal, his eyes were full of tears and he felt so bad for not understanding the ULTIMATE TRUTH despite all the worldly knowledge. This incedent changed baba budda Ji's thinking altogether forever. 

Guru leads to God, yes . Because HE IS GOD- Brahmgyani aap parmesar.
Guru is God, yes .
No difference whatsoever.
If we keep on thinking them as two seperate entities, we will be lost in duality-love with two. There is no two- eko hai bhai eko hai.


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## Honey22 (Jul 6, 2008)

Gurbani claims there is nobody equal to God or like God. If one tells us that Guru is like God but not God, brings out a conception of another who is equally comparable to God.

BUT GURBANI CLAIMS: 

ਹਰਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦਿਸਈ ਕੋਈ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਲਾਇ ॥ 
har jaehaa avar n dhisee koee dhoojaa lavai n laae ||
There is no other like the Lord-there is no equal to Him.



ਰਾਮ ਸਮਾਨ ਨ ਦੇਖਉ ਆਨ ॥੨॥੩੪॥
raam samaan n dhaekho aan ||2||34||
and have not seen another, equal to the Lord. ||2||34||



ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
avar n dheesai kis saalaahee thisehi sareek n koee ||
I do not see any other like the Lord; who else should I praise? No one is equal to Him.



GUR JAISA NAHI KO DEV


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## HarsimranSingh (Jul 6, 2008)

*Honey22 Ji,*

*I don’t know how to tell you this, I am out of words. Thanks a lot. Bhaee Lehna Ji’s obedience to Guru Nanak Dev Ji is unmatchable. All who used to make a mockery of his obedience, had to regret big time later on. *

*Raising doubts and then supporting those doubts is one of the old tactics of brahminism to suppress the Sikh Faith or any other Good Faith(Budhism and Jainism). Mostly the newbees in this business have no clue what they are trapped into. Sikh Faith has always been considered a threat to the Brahminic Way of life: like cast system, belief in separate Gods/gods, cutting hair, and all other stupid fasts etc. By and large, Indian Government plays its legal and political hocuspocus to blend Sikhs into the fold of Hinduism all the time. They been very successful in spreading the cast system in Sikh Culture. There are so many types of Sikhs now, It is very rare to find a real Guru Ka Sikh, but a lot of those who call themselves jatsikh, ramgaria sikh, Sehajdhari Sikh, Keshdhari Sikh, Amritdhari Sikh, Naamdhari Sikhs, 3HO Sikhs and others, all filled with ego, boasting of their own way of life to be distinguished. Even the style of Pagri sometimes used to differentiate what class a person belongs to. *


*Following links show few RSS strategies to dismantle Sikh Faith:*
*http://www.info-sikh.com/PageRSS2.html*
*http://lists.topica.com/lists/hindusthanchurch/read/message.html?sort=t&mid=912278321*

*Dehdhari Gurus all over the world are using the strategy of misinterpreting Gurbani to suit their own interests through twisted and false meanings, they are rejecting the facts like: Guru and God is One and the Same, Gurbani(SGGS Ji) is eternal, There is no need of rituals, interpreters and priests to connect with the Guru, Immortality of SGGS Ji has negated the need of spiritual human Guru, Guru is God Himself and He dwells in the heart of everyone. *


*A friend of mine lives in Bangalore and he was telling me one time he saw a group of people all dressed like Sikhs, reciting a Shabad- all of it correct but with a few added lines(kachi bani) which were the most loudly and clearly uttered, indicating that Guru is like God but cannot God Himself(Guru rab ho nahi sakda, ho nahi sakda) . He stopped them, tried to explain the correct shabad, in the mean time one of those guys got scared and sweated too much and his false beard starting to peel off. They ended up getting beaten up by the street crowd. *


*A request: Honey Ji, please read Hukamnaama Section on this forum for 5th of July, in my post I told a story, please read that and comment if possible, a PM will be appretiated. *

*Before leaving I must say inspite of all the efforts to suppress Sikh Faith, in only 500 years Sikhism is the 5th largest religion in the world. I travelled worldwide, always able to find a Gurdwara - when I do matha tek there I tell myself- This is what- Raj Karega Khalsa-SGGS Ji.*

*Truth is embedded in every heart, even in those who feel compelled to play the role of Truth suppressors. Their efforts go empty eventually when the inner truth takes over and they are forced to do things which reveal their true color. *

*That’s why every once in a while one or the other fake babas get exposed. *


*Thanks and forgive me Please*


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## pk70 (Jul 6, 2008)

*HARSIMRAN SINGH JI[/FONT]*
*Very sorry to disagree with you strongly, I feel otherwise, it is easy to blame Hindus or others than never looking at quagmire we ourselves stuck in. Calling Guru Granth Sahib ji God, or Guru as a God is a pure example how Order of the father of Sikhism is shamefully ignored. GOD doesn’t take birth, Guru Sahibaan went through that birth and death. To support your theory you have to reject MoolMantra. If you do that, you have disobeyed  Guru Nanak Ji. [/FONT]*
*Here is what Guru Granth Sahib says about itself, what more proof do you want from Guru ji?[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]*
ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਪੋਥੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  1226
Sarang 5th Guru. This Holy Book (the Adi Granth) is the abode of the Transcendent Lord. Whosoever sings the World-Lord's praise in the society of the saints, he is blessed with the perfect Divine knowledge. Pause. 

ਸਾਰੰਗ ਪੰਜਵੀਂ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ। ਇਹ ਪਵਿੱਤ੍ਰ ਪੁਸਤਕ, (ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ/ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਿਵਾਸ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਹੈ। ਜੋ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਸਤਿਸੰਗਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਸ਼੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਦੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ ਗਾਇਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮੁਕੰਮਲ ਈਸ਼ਵਰੀ ਗਿਆਤ ਪਰਾਪਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਠਹਿਰਾਉ।
*Why would any follower of Guru Nanak call Guru Granth Sahib God when it is declared by Guru Sahib himself that Guru Granth Sahib is a place where HE is found and also hinted how He is realized. Guru bachan also proves here that Guru Granth SahibJi is medium not God itself. Why others are blamed when own members of the family are bent upon burning the house.

 [/FONT]*


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## Honey22 (Jul 6, 2008)

HarsimranSingh said:


> *Honey22 Ji,*
> 
> *I don’t know how to tell you this, I am out of words. Thanks a lot. Bhaee Lehna Ji’s obedience to Guru Nanak Dev Ji is unmatchable. All who used to make a mockery of his obedience, had to regret big time later on. *
> 
> ...


 
ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
aapae sathigur aap har aapae mael milaae ||
He Himself is the True Guru; He Himself is the Lord. He Himself unites in His Union.


ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੨॥
gur paramaesar paarabreham gur ddubadhaa leae tharaae ||2||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||


ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥
gur sathigur suaamee bhaedh n jaanahu jith mil har bhagath sukhaandhee ||
Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lord's devotional service.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥੩॥
gur paarabreham nikatt kar jaan ||3||
I know that the Guru, the Supreme Lord God, is near me. ||3||


ਆਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਾ ਆਪਹਿ ਭਏ ॥ 
aap gaeiaa thaa aapehi bheae ||
When selfishness is gone, then one becomes the Lord Himself;
ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਏ ॥੩॥ 
kirapaa nidhhaan kee saranee peae ||3||
seek the Sanctuary of the treasure of mercy. ||3||


ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਦਯੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
gur naaraaein dhay gur gur sachaa sirajanehaar ||
The Guru is the All-pervading Lord, the Guru is the Merciful Master; the Guru is the True Creator Lord.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ ॥
guradhaev maathaa guradhaev pithaa guradhaev suaamee paramaesuraa ||
The Divine Guru is my mother, the Divine Guru is my father; the Divine Guru is my Transcendent Lord and Master.
ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਨਿਰੋਧਰਾ ॥
guradhaev dhaathaa har naam oupadhaesai guradhaev manth nirodhharaa ||
The Divine Guru is the Giver, the Teacher of the Lord's Name. The Divine Guru is the Mantra which never fails.

ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੇ ॥
so sathigur j sach dhhiaaeidhaa sach sachaa sathigur eikae ||
He is the True Guru, who meditates on the True Lord. The True Lord and the True Guru are truly One.

*ਜੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਤਾਂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਵੈ ॥*
jae kirapaa karae maeraa har prabh karathaa thaan sathigur paarabreham nadharee aavai ||
When my Lord God, the Creator, grants His Grace, then they come to see the True Guru as the Supreme Lord God.

Harsimran Singh Ji, It is so peaceful and soothing. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਗੰਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥
sathigur purakh aganm hai jis andhar har our dhhaariaa ||
The True Guru the Primal Being is inaccessible; He has enshrined the Lord's Name within His heart.


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## Honey22 (Jul 6, 2008)

ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਭਣੈ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
ravidhaas bhanai jo jaanai so jaan ||
Says Ravi Daas, he alone is wise, who knows this:
 ਸੰਤ ਅਨੰਤਹਿ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੪॥੨॥ 
santh ananthehi anthar naahee ||4||2||
there is no difference between the Saints and the Infinite Lord. ||4||2||


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## Honey22 (Jul 7, 2008)

*ਬੀਸ ਬਿਸੁਏ ਜਾ ਮਨ ਠਹਰਾਨੇ ॥ 
bees bisueae jaa man theharaanae ||
When the mind is totally held in check,
ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਏਕੈ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੇ ॥੨॥ 
gur paarabreham eaekai hee jaanae ||2||
one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2||*


*ਜਬ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਭਰਮਾ ॥ 
jab eis thae sabh binasae bharamaa ||
But when all his doubts are removed,
ਭੇਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥੪॥ 
bhaedh naahee hai paarabrehamaa ||4||
then there is no difference between him and the Supreme Lord God. ||4||*

*So Peaceful to recite and share Gurbani/Guru/Nirankaar/Narayan/Hari/Naam/Satguru/Eternal Power/Gurudev/All the same and One and Only One-No match*


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## HarsimranSingh (Jul 7, 2008)

PK70 said:
			
		

> *HARSIMRAN SINGH JI[/FONT][/FONT]*
> *Very sorry to disagree with you strongly, I feel otherwise, it is easy to blame Hindus or others than never looking at quagmire we ourselves stuck in. [/FONT]*
> [/FONT]


 
PK70 Ji, You don’t need to be sorry, I am not sorry at all either. Your life, your choices, your observations, your lekh, your karma, nobody can force another person to agree with what they think. You can disagree strongly, weakly or with a burst of fire- I really don’t care. 'Guru Mere Sang Sadaa Hai Naalay' applies to all- It is one’s choice and luck that keeps one troubled or at peace over things.



			
				PK70 said:
			
		

> *Calling Guru Granth Sahib ji God, or Guru as a God is a pure example how Order of the father of Sikhism is shamefully ignored. [/FONT][/FONT]*
> [/FONT]


PK70 Ji, For me following is also the Order of the same ONE FATHER(Universal Lord/Satguru):

jae kirapaa karae maeraa har prabh karathaa thaan sathigur paarabreham nadharee aavai ||
When my Lord God, the Creator, grants His Grace, then they come to see the True Guru as the Supreme Lord God.


ravidhaas bhanai jo jaanai so jaan ||
Says Ravi Daas, he alone is wise, who knows this:

santh ananthehi anthar naahee ||4||2||
there is no difference between the Saints and the Infinite Lord. ||4||2||

bees bisueae jaa man theharaanae ||
When the mind is totally held in check,
gur paarabreham eaekai hee jaanae ||2||
one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2||



All is Him and only Him, He is the Father who is not separate, always protecting, He is the Mother who is not seperate, always taking care, He is the Guru who is not seperate, always guiding, He is the Neighbour, always there to share, I can keep on going for what He is. His praise is endless, Again that too, He Himself is His Own Praise, who is me?.






			
				PK70 said:
			
		

> *GOD doesn’t take birth, Guru Sahibaan went through that birth and death. To support your theory you have to reject MoolMantra. If you do that, you have disobeyed Guru Nanak Ji. [/FONT]*


 


PK70 Ji, That’s not my conception at all, I am not thinking to reject or accept anything. It is all His Wish, who is my Guru and Lord, and my Guru Ji my Father never ever tells me to reject Mool Mantra or any other line of Gurbani when He says:
Guru Parmesar eko jaan. 
For this moorakh whole Bani is MOOL MANTRA, AMRIT JAL. 
Guru Sahib Ji says mool mantra over and over again as well as He says again and again that there is no difference- God and Guru is ONE AND THE SAME.And confirms that he shows this truth to His Beloved/Devotee Himself.
Sikh doesn’t reject One Line of Gurbani Over the Other- All is His Word and His Word is not to be verified but BELIEVED with UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and UNSHAKABLE FAITH- As He knows ALL- not me.

*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Here is what Guru Granth Sahib says about itself, what more proof do you want from Guru ji?[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*

PK70 Ji, I am not looking for proofs, good luck in your endevour.
For me moorakh ALL is Guru’s Word. His Word is so strong, loud and clear, anybody’s self created differences and definitions are nothing close to HIS ULTIMATE TRUTH. He Himself shows the Truth to whosoever He wants to.

ya ko dhokha kahan viaapay ja ko aout tuhari

*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Why would any follower of Guru Nanak call Guru Granth Sahib God when it is declared by Guru Sahib himself that Guru Granth Sahib is a place where HE is found and also hinted how He is realized.

Click to expand...

* 
PK70 Ji, These differences you are talking about, are not my creation, I don’t know the difference. And I don’t need to. He is the ONE-Call Him Guru or Lord. My Guru never tells me to differentiate between the terms being used in unspeakable speech(akath ki katha)- HE IS ALL, HE IS EVERYWHERE, HE IS EVERYTHING. HE IS THE SPEAKER IN ALL. HE IS THE LISTENER IN ALL. ​ 
My Father, My Guru, My Lord, There is no difference between His Residence/Abode and He Himself, between His Realization and He Himself. ​ 

aapae raseeaa aap ras aapae raavanehaar ||
He Himself is the Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Enjoyment. He Himself is the Ravisher of all.​ 
{Guru Ji doesn't tell me anywhere to find difference between raseeaa, ras and raavanhaar.}​ 
aapae hovai cholarraa aapae saej bhathaar ||1||
He Himself is the Bride in her dress, He Himself is the Bridegroom on the bed. ||1||​ 

rang rathaa maeraa saahib rav rehiaa bharapoor ||1|| rehaao ||
My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||​ 



*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Guru bachan also proves here that Guru Granth SahibJi is medium not God itself. 

Click to expand...

* 
PK70 Ji, again it is not my way of thinking, I don’t need to prove Guru Shabad. I don’t need proof, neither I am looking for someone to prove Gurbani for me. He is Strong, Loud and Clear for me. He is BOTH- one and the Same, no difference between His Medium and He Himself. Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan.

*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Why others are blamed when own members of the family are bent upon burning the house.

Click to expand...

* 
PK70 Ji, This World(Sarbatt) is Sikh’s family, Sikh only sings/believes/ lives Gurbani. Other members of the family can do whatever(as all are under His Will), he will still keep singing God’s Word/Gurbani/Satguru/Lord/NaamAmrit(other members can choose to listen or not listen). A Sikh will see everything, as it is God’s play, will talk about it and will respond to the stuation as Waheguru/God/Guru wills him to. This house is not made of a matter which someone can burn, several have tried before and several are still trying. What happened! Sikh is still praying for Sarbatt Da Bhalaa.​ 
Paarbranm Ke Des Di Gall kujh hor hai PK70 Ji, Isnu Koi Agg jala nahi sakdi. Tuhada Veham Hai Ke Koi Family Member Agg Lagaa Reha Hai(They may think this way but actually Agg oh Ghar nu Nahi Apne karma nu la rahe ne), Te PK70 Ji Veham Da Ilaaj Ta Hakeem Lukmaan De Kol Vi Nahi si, Assi Tusi Kis Baag Di Mooli Te Kis Khet De Baingan. Tuhada Veham tuhanu mubaarak.​ 
Guru Ji says:​ 

aapae maashhee mashhulee aapae paanee jaal ||
He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.​ 

aapae jaal manakarraa aapae andhar laal ||2||
He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||​ 



gur naaraaein dhay gur gur sachaa sirajanehaar ||
The Guru is the All-pervading Lord, the Guru is the Merciful Master; the Guru is the True Creator Lord.​ 

guradhaev maathaa guradhaev pithaa guradhaev suaamee paramaesuraa ||
The Divine Guru is my mother, the Divine Guru is my father; the Divine Guru is my Transcendent Lord and Master.​ 


anehudh vaajai sehaj suhaelaa 
The Unstruck Melody resounds and resonates in peaceful ease.​ 

subadh anundh kurae sudh kaelaa 
I rejoice in the eternal bliss of the Word of the Shabad.​ 
sehuj gufaa mehi thaarree laaee aasun ooch suvaariaa jeeo 
In the cave of intuitive wisdom I sit, absorbed in the silent trance of the Primal Void. I have obtained my seat in the heavens. ||1||​ 
fir ghir apunae grih mehi aaeiaa 
After wandering through many other homes and houses, I have returned to my own home,​ 
jo lorreedhaa soee paaeiaa 
and I have found what I was longing for.​ 
thripath aghaae rehiaa hai sunthuhu gur anubho purukh dhikhaariaa jeeo 
I am satisfied and fulfilled; O Saints, the Guru has shown me the Fearless Lord God. ||2||​ 
aapae raajun aapae logaa 
He Himself is the King, and He Himself is the people.​ 
aap nirubaanee aapae bhogaa 
He Himself is in Nirvaanaa, and He Himself indulges in pleasures.​ 
aapae thukhath behai such niaaee subh chookee kook pukaariaa jeeo 
He Himself sits on the throne of true justice, answering the cries and prayers of all. ||3||​ 
jaehaa ddithaa mai thaeho kehiaa 
As I have seen Him, so have I described Him.
this rus aaeiaa jin bhaedh lehiaa 
This Sublime Essence comes only to one who knows the Mystery of the Lord.​ 
jothee joth milee sukh paaeiaa jun naanuk eik pusaariaa jeeo 
His light merges into the Light, and he finds peace. O servant Nanak, this is all the Extension of the One. ||4||3||10||​ 

PK70 Ji, Thankyou and Forgive me Please.​ 



Honey22 Ji,​ 
Thanks for sharing the Truth.​ 

aap gaeiaa thaa aapehi bheae ||
When selfishness is gone, then one becomes the Lord Himself;​ 
Honey22 Ji, Thankyou and Forgive me Please​


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Harsimran singh,
your posings are in bold, mine in regular.


*When my Lord God, the Creator, grants His Grace, then they come to see the True Guru as the Supreme Lord God.*

Here is whole shabad in english translation and translation by Prof Sahib Singh.

When my Lord God, the Creator, grants His Grace, then they come to see the True Guru as the Supreme Lord God.   Then, they drink in the Nectar, the Word of the Guru's Shabad; all burning, anxiety, and doubts are eliminated.   They remain in ecstasy forever, day and night; O servant Nanak, they sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, night and day. ||1||   
ਜੇ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਤਾਂ (ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਭੀ) ਦਿੱਸ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ (ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ) ਉਹ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ-ਰੂਪ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੀਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਝੋਰਾ, ਚਿੰਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਟਕਣਾ ਸਭ ਮੁਕਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਹਰ ਰੋਜ਼ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।੧।

Even fool like me can understand that Satguru in this sentence is being comparing to Lord, not that statement that He is the Creator. 


*Says Ravi Daas, he alone is wise, who knows this:
there is no difference between the Saints and the Infinite Lord. ||4||2||*

Harsimran Singh, you are picking tuk from here and there. If you are being so literal, on the line Bhagat Ravi Daas says,
ਤੁਮ  ਚੰਦਨ  ਹਮ  ਇਰੰਡ  ਬਾਪੁਰੇ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਤੁਮਾਰੇ  ਬਾਸਾ  ॥   
You are sandalwood, and I am the poor castor oil plant, dwelling close to you.   
As per your defintion Bhagat Ravi Daas should be God too. Then why he is calling himself poor castor oil plant. 
I agree though he must be on his way to becoming one with Lord. (did you notice his humality?)


*When the mind is totally held in check,
one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2||
* 
I am again posting whole shabad.
ਕਰਿ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਰਾਖਿਓ  ਗੁਰਿ  ਸਰਨਾ  ॥   ਗੁਰਿ  ਪਕਰਾਏ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੇ  ਚਰਨਾ  ॥   ਬੀਸ  ਬਿਸੁਏ  ਜਾ  ਮਨ  ਠਹਰਾਨੇ  ॥   ਗੁਰ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਏਕੈ  ਹੀ  ਜਾਨੇ  ॥੨॥  
In His Mercy, the Guru has kept me under His protection.   The Guru has attached me to the Lord's Feet.   When the mind is totally held in check,   one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2|| 

You are picking one tuk again. Can't you see previous tuk which says,"Guru has attached to the Lord's feet."? Doesn't that mean Guru and Lord in this shabad are different entities?
Posting in bold and red letters won't help anybody. You are only insulting shabad guru by not trying to understand meaning, but forcing your opinions on everybody else. There is no doubt words *Guru, Satguru* have been used for* Shabad guru, Lord and sometimes for one of the ten gurus *too. But please look into context. Don't forget meaning of guru is 'who shows us light'. It could be any one of three.
Harsimran ji, sorry if I offend you. Maybe you are in stage higher than me, but I am still a sikh (learner).
Special Note for Moderators:
*Khalsa ji, Plzzz be carefule what is being posted.*
Guru Rakha.


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## HarsimranSingh (Jul 8, 2008)

Lalihayer Ji, 
Guru represents Sikhism EVERYWHERE, Guru’s Word is the same for ALL, be a learner or be a scholar or be a sikh related website moderator. If that makes one feel that they have the authority to change Guru’s Word according to their personal choice, good for them- it is their karma Lalihayer Ji. This greeb is only obeying Guru Ji, The Lord, The Master, One and Only One. Guru Ji is telling all of us:​ 

thudhh jaevadd dhaathaa avar n suaamee lavai n koee laavaniaa ||6||
There is no other Giver as Great as You, O my Lord and Master. None approach or equal You. ||6||​ 

har jaehaa avar n dhisee koee dhoojaa lavai n laae ||
There is no other like the Lord-there is no equal to Him.​ 


lalaa thaa kai lavai n kooo ||
LALLA: There is no one equal to Him.​ 

eaekehi aap avar neh hooo ||
He Himself is the One; there shall never be any other.​ 


Guru Ji is telling us:​ 
ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੇ ॥ 
guramathee har har bolae ||
Following the Guru's Teachings, chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.​ 

har praem kasaaee dhinas raath har rathee har rang cholae ||
Attracted by the Lord's Love, day and night, the body-robe is imbued with the Lord's Love.​ 

har jaisaa purakh n labhee sabh dhaekhiaa jagath mai ttolae ||
I have not found any being like the Lord, although I have searched and looked all over the world.​ 

gur sathigur naam dhirraaeiaa man anath n kaahoo ddolae ||
The Guru, the True Guru, has implanted the Naam within; now, my mind does not waver or wander anywhere else.​ 

One line or the whole Shabad, Guru’s Word doesn’t change meanings Lalihayer Ji. 
Guru Himself didn’t find one like God. Well it looks like you have found one like God, but who cant be God but still equal to or like Him-Congratulations on your discovery.​ 

Good Luck lalihayer Ji.
Thanks and Forgive me Please​


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

He Only Found God and Himself became the same. No difference left any more. 
One and Only One.
No Match.
Guru is God and God is Guru, Saint is God and God is Saint, Brahmgyani is God and God is Brahmgyani--- All is One and the Same. 

Sabh Gobind Hai Sabh Gobind Hai Gobind Bin Nahi Koi.


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Harsimran Singh Ji,

Sharing a beautifull verse, Guru Ji is also telling us here about those who has instilled the sense of differences in their minds:




rwgu gauVI guAwryrI mhlw 5 AstpdIAw
<> siqnwmu krqw purKu gur pRswid ]
jb iehu mn mih krq gumwnw ]
qb iehu bwvru iPrq ibgwnw ]
jb iehu hUAw sgl kI rInw ]
qw qy rmeIAw Git Git cInw ]1]
shj suhylw Plu mskInI ]
siqgur ApunY moih dwnu dInI ]1] rhwau ]
jb iks kau iehu jwnis mMdw ]
qb sgly iesu mylih PMdw ]
myr qyr jb ienih cukweI ]
qw qy iesu sMig nhI bYrweI ]2]
jb iein ApunI ApnI DwrI ]
qb ies kau hY musklu BwrI ]
jb iein krxYhwru pCwqw ]
qb ies no nwhI ikCu qwqw ]3]
jb iein Apuno bwiDE mohw ]
AwvY jwie sdw jim johw ]
jb ies qy sB ibnsy Brmw ]
Bydu nwhI hY pwrbRhmw ]4]
jb iein ikCu kir mwny Bydw ]
qb qy dUK fMf Aru Kydw ]
jb iein eyko eykI bUiJAw ]
qb qy ies no sBu ikCu sUiJAw ]5]
jb iehu DwvY mwieAw ArQI ]
nh iqRpqwvY nh iqs lwQI ]
jb ies qy iehu hoieE jaulw ]
pICY lwig clI auiT kaulw ]6]
kir ikrpw jau siqguru imilE ]
mn mMdr mih dIpku jilE ]
jIq hwr kI soJI krI ]
qau iesu Gr kI kImiq prI ]7]
krn krwvn sBu ikCu eykY ]
Awpy buiD bIcwir ibbykY ]
dUir n nyrY sB kY sMgw ]
scu swlwhxu nwnk hir rMgw ]8]1]

Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl, Ashtapadees:
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. By Guru's Grace:
When this mind is filled with pride,
then it wanders around like a madman and a lunatic.
But when it becomes the dust of all,
then it recognizes the Lord in each and every heart. ||1||
The fruit of humility is intuitive peace and pleasure.
My True Guru has given me this gift. ||1||Pause||
When he believes others to be bad,
then everyone lays traps for him.
But when he stops thinking in terms of 'mine' and 'yours',
then no one is angry with him. ||2||
When he clings to 'my own, my own',
then he is in deep trouble.
But when he recognizes the Creator Lord,
then he is free of torment. ||3||
When he entangles himself in emotional attachment,
he comes and goes in reincarnation, under the constant gaze of Death.
But when all his doubts are removed,
then there is no difference between him and the Supreme Lord God. ||4||
When he perceives differences,
then he suffers pain, punishment and sorrow.
But when he recognizes the One and Only Lord,
he understands everything. ||5||
When he runs around for the sake of Maya and riches,
he is not satisfied, and his desires are not quenched.
But when he runs away from Maya,
then the Goddess of Wealth gets up and follows him. ||6||
When, by His Grace, the True Guru is met,
the lamp is lit within the temple of the mind.
When he realizes what victory and defeat really are,
then he comes to appreciate the true value of his own home. ||7||
The One Lord is the Creator of all things, the Cause of causes.
He Himself is wisdom, contemplation and discerning understanding.
He is not far away; He is near at hand, with all.
So praise the True One, O Nanak, with love! ||8||1||


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

another verse -one with no difference between a saint and god:

swD kI mihmw byd n jwnih ]
jyqw sunih qyqw biKAwnih ]
swD kI aupmw iqhu gux qy dUir ]
swD kI aupmw rhI BrpUir ]
swD kI soBw kw nwhI AMq ]
swD kI soBw sdw byAMq ]
swD kI soBw aUc qy aUcI ]
swD kI soBw mUc qy mUcI ]
swD kI soBw swD bin AweI ]
nwnk swD pRB Bydu n BweI ]8]7]

The glory of the Holy people is not known to the Vedas.
They can describe only what they have heard.
The greatness of the Holy people is beyond the three qualities.
The greatness of the Holy people is all-pervading.
The glory of the Holy people has no limit.
The glory of the Holy people is infinite and eternal.
The glory of the Holy people is the highest of the high.
The glory of the Holy people is the greatest of the great.
The glory of the Holy people is theirs alone;
O Nanak, there is no difference between the Holy people and God. ||8||7||


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## HarsimranSingh (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey Ji,

Thanks for sharing the Truth. Guru Vaak:


santh janahu mil bhaaeeho sachaa naam samaal ||
Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name.
thosaa bandhhahu jeea kaa aithhai outhhai naal ||
For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.
gur poorae thae paaeeai apanee nadhar nihaal ||
These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.
karam paraapath this hovai jis no haae dhaeiaal ||1||
Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||
maerae man gur jaevadd avar n koe ||
O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru.
dhoojaa thhaao n ko sujhai gur maelae sach soe ||1|| rehaao ||
I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||
sagal padhaarathh this milae jin gur ddithaa jaae ||
Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures.
gur charanee jin man lagaa sae vaddabhaagee maae ||
Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother.
gur dhaathaa samarathh gur gur sabh mehi rehiaa samaae ||
The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.
gur paramaesar paarabreham gur ddubadhaa leae tharaae ||2||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||

Thankyou and Forgive me Please


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Harsimran Ji,

We can keep going and going with these Shabads:

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ 
gur paramaesur poojeeai man than laae piaar ||
Worship the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, with your mind and body attuned to love.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
sathigur dhaathaa jeea kaa sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
The True Guru is the Giver of the soul; He gives Support to all.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਸਚਾ ਏਹੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
sathigur bachan kamaavanae sachaa eaehu veechaar ||
Act according to the Instructions of the True Guru; this is the true philosophy.
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ 
bin saadhhoo sangath rathiaa maaeiaa mohu sabh shhaar ||1||
Without being attuned to the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, all attachment to Maya is just dust. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥ 
maerae saajan har har naam samaal ||
O my friend, reflect upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har
ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਲ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
saadhhoo sangath man vasai pooran hovai ghaal ||1|| rehaao ||
. In the Saadh Sangat, He dwells within the mind, and one's works are brought to perfect fruition. ||1||Pause||
ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
gur samarathh apaar gur vaddabhaagee dharasan hoe ||
The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Infinite. By great good fortune, the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is obtained.
ਗੁਰੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
gur agochar niramalaa gur jaevadd avar n koe ||
The Guru is Imperceptible, Immaculate and Pure. There is no other as great as the Guru.
ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
gur karathaa gur karanehaar guramukh sachee soe ||
The Guru is the Creator, the Guru is the Doer. The Gurmukh obtains true glory.
ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
gur thae baahar kishh nehee gur keethaa lorrae s hoe ||2||
Nothing is beyond the Guru; whatever He wishes comes to pass. ||2||
ਗੁਰੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਨਸਾ ਪੂਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ 
gur theerathh gur paarajaath gur manasaa pooranehaar ||
The Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Wish-fulfilling Elysian Tree.
ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਇ ਉਧਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
gur dhaathaa har naam dhaee oudhharai sabh sansaar ||
The Guru is the Fulfiller of the desires of the mind. The Guru is the Giver of the Name of the Lord, by which all the world is saved.
ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਊਚਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
gur samarathh gur nirankaar gur oochaa agam apaar ||
The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Formless; the Guru is Lofty, Inaccessible and Infinite.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਅਗਮ ਹੈ ਕਿਆ ਕਥੇ ਕਥਨਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ 
gur kee mehimaa agam hai kiaa kathhae kathhanehaar ||3||
The Praise of the Guru is so sublime-what can any speaker say? ||3||
ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ 
jitharrae fal man baashheeahi thitharrae sathigur paas ||
All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru.
ਪੂਰਬ ਲਿਖੇ ਪਾਵਣੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
poorab likhae paavanae saach naam dhae raas ||
One whose destiny is so pre-ordained, obtains the Wealth of the True Name.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣੀ ਆਇਆਂ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥ 
sathigur saranee aaeiaaan baahurr nehee binaas ||
Entering the Sanctuary of the True Guru, you shall never die again.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਰਉ ਏਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਾਸੁ ॥੪॥੨੯॥੯੯॥ 
har naanak kadhae n visaro eaehu jeeo pindd thaeraa saas ||4||29||99||
Nanak: may I never forget You, Lord. This soul, body and breath are Yours. ||4||29||99||


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## HarsimranSingh (Jul 8, 2008)

Lalihayer Ji, ​

Guru represents Sikhism EVERYWHERE, Guru’s Word is the same for ALL, be a learner or be a scholar or be anybody from any religion or faith. If that makes one feel that they have the authority to change Guru’s Word according to their personal choice, good for them- it is their karma Lalihayer Ji. This greeb is only obeying Guru Ji, The Lord, The Master, One and Only One. Guru Ji is telling all of us:​ 

*thudhh jaevadd dhaathaa avar n suaamee lavai n koee laavaniaa ||6||*
*There is no other Giver as Great as You, O my Lord and Master. None approach or equal You. ||6||*​ 

*har jaehaa avar n dhisee koee dhoojaa lavai n laae ||*
*There is no other like the Lord-there is no equal to Him.*​ 


*lalaa thaa kai lavai n kooo ||*
*LALLA: There is no one equal to Him.*​ 

*eaekehi aap avar neh hooo ||*
*He Himself is the One; there shall never be any other.*​ 


*Guru Ji is telling us:*​ 
*ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੇ ॥ *
*guramathee har har bolae ||*
*Following the Guru's Teachings, chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.*​ 

*har praem kasaaee dhinas raath har rathee har rang cholae ||*
*Attracted by the Lord's Love, day and night, the body-robe is imbued with the Lord's Love.*​ 

*har jaisaa purakh n labhee sabh dhaekhiaa jagath mai ttolae ||*
*I have not found any being like the Lord, although I have searched and looked all over the world.*​ 

*gur sathigur naam dhirraaeiaa man anath n kaahoo ddolae ||*
*The Guru, the True Guru, has implanted the Naam within; now, my mind does not waver or wander anywhere else.*​ 

One line or the whole Shabad, Guru’s Word doesn’t change meanings Lalihayer Ji. 
Guru Himself didn’t find one like God. Well it looks like you have found one like God, but who cant be God but still equal to or like Him-Congratulations on your discovery.​ 

Good Luck lalihayer Ji.​ 
Thanks and Forgive me Please​


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Harsimran ji,
You said that *One line or the whole Shabad, Guru’s Word doesn’t change meanings Lalihayer Ji.* Here are some tuks from Gurubani. If we take these literally without taking into consideration whole shabad and context, do you agree with literal meaning.

Guru Nanak Dev  says on Page 153, Line 5
ਹਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਏਕ ॥੧॥ 
I am a sinner - You alone are pure. ||1||


Guru Ram Das says Page 167, Line 5
ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
O my Lord, I am a sinner; I have come to Your Sanctuary, and fallen at Your Door, Lord.


*Guru Ram Das says on Page 172, Line 11
ਹਮ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਪਾਪ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨੇ ਕਰਿ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਚੋਰ ਚੁਰਾਇਆ ॥
I am a sinner - I have committed so many sins; I am a villainous, thieving thief.*


*Guru Nanak Dev says on Page 228, Line 9
ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਕਉ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
I am a worthless sinner, without merit. What merit do I have?*

*Guru Nanak Dev says on Page 12, Line 4
ਨਾ ਹਉ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਨਹੀ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
I am not celibate, nor truthful, nor scholarly. I was born foolish and ignorant into this world.*


Guru Arjan Dev says on Page 51, Line 17
ਭੂਲਹਿ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੂੰ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
Like a foolish child, I have made mistakes. O Lord, You are my Father and Mother. ||1||


Guru Ram Das says on Page 172, Line 7
*ਹਮ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਅਗਿਆਨ* ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
*I am egotistical and conceited, and my intellect is ignorant*. Meeting the Guru, my selfishness and conceit have been abolished.


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Lalihayer Ji,

All these lines shows the unending humility in Guru Ji, That advocates His Greatness-nobody equal to Him, He is the Lord Himself. Great Job you have done by selecting these quotes for the Sangat, reminded Guru Ji's greatest virtues. Shukrya Janaab.


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## SadeePuri (Jul 8, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> Harsimran ji,
> You said that *One line or the whole Shabad, Guru’s Word doesn’t change meanings Lalihayer Ji.* Here are some tuks from Gurubani. If we take these literally without taking into consideration whole shabad and context, do you agree with literal meaning.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev says on Page 153, Line 5
> ...


 


Laiheyer Ji, you have brought tears in my eyes, Great is Guru Ji's Humilty, the direct proof of Him being the Lord-Almighty.

Thanks a million.


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Harsimran ji, You were taking every tuk literally in earlier posts. Why exception here?


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

To whom are you addressing this question Lalihayer Ji?


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

By the way is there anything wrong in Believing, Respecting Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji's every line?
Isn't each line, each word is WORD OF GOD?


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## SadeePuri (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> By the way is there anything wrong in Believing, Respecting Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji's every line?
> Isn't each line, each word is WORD OF GOD?


 


 People use different ways to respect Guru Ji, Honey22 Ji. One's way may clash with other's. I respect every word of Baba Ji. I believe : Jo BabaJi keh rahe ne oh sach hi sach hai, baraa anand hai es vich.


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## SadeePuri (Jul 8, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> Harsimran ji, You were taking every tuk literally in earlier posts. Why exception here?


 
Thankyou Ji for adding the name of the person Ji.


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> By the way is there anything wrong in Believing, Respecting Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji's every line?
> Isn't each line, each word is WORD OF GOD?


No, nothing wrong in it. Every word is guru for us. But it would be much better if we understand what Guru Saheban are saying (rather than just reading it loud) and put it in our lives too.
Guru Nanak says on 595 says
ਸੋਰਠਿ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ਘਰੁ  ੧  ॥ 
Sorat'h, First Mehl, First House: 

ਮਨੁ  ਹਾਲੀ  ਕਿਰਸਾਣੀ  ਕਰਣੀ  ਸਰਮੁ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਤਨੁ  ਖੇਤੁ  ॥ 
Make your mind the farmer, good deeds the farm, modesty the water, and your body the field. 

ਨਾਮੁ  ਬੀਜੁ  ਸੰਤੋਖੁ  ਸੁਹਾਗਾ  ਰਖੁ  ਗਰੀਬੀ  ਵੇਸੁ  ॥ 
Let the Lord's Name be the seed, contentment the plow, and your humble dress the fence. 

ਭਾਉ  ਕਰਮ  ਕਰਿ  ਜੰਮਸੀ  ਸੇ  ਘਰ  ਭਾਗਠ  ਦੇਖੁ  ॥੧॥ 
Doing deeds of love, the seed shall sprout, and you shall see your home flourish. ||1|| 

ਬਾਬਾ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਸਾਥਿ  ਨ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
O Baba, the wealth of Maya does not go with anyone. 

ਇਨਿ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਜਗੁ  ਮੋਹਿਆ  ਵਿਰਲਾ  ਬੂਝੈ  ਕੋਇ  ॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
This Maya has bewitched the world, but only a rare few understand this. ||Pause|| 

ਹਾਣੁ  ਹਟੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਆਰਜਾ  ਸਚੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਵਥੁ  ॥ 
Make your ever-decreasing life your shop, and make the Lord's Name your merchandise. 

ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਸੋਚ  ਕਰਿ  ਭਾਂਡਸਾਲ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਤਿਸ  ਨੋ  ਰਖੁ  ॥ 
Make understanding and contemplation your warehouse, and in that warehouse, store the Lord's Name. 

ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ  ਸਿਉ  ਵਣਜੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਲੈ  ਲਾਹਾ  ਮਨ  ਹਸੁ  ॥੨॥ 
Deal with the Lord's dealers, earn your profits, and rejoice in your mind. ||2|| 



ਸੁਣਿ  ਸਾਸਤ  ਸਉਦਾਗਰੀ  ਸਤੁ  ਘੋੜੇ  ਲੈ  ਚਲੁ  ॥ 
Let your trade be listening to scripture, and let Truth be the horses you take to sell. 

ਖਰਚੁ  ਬੰਨੁ  ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ  ਮਤੁ  ਮਨ  ਜਾਣਹਿ  ਕਲੁ  ॥ 
Gather up merits for your travelling expenses, and do not think of tomorrow in your mind. 

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ  ਕੈ  ਦੇਸਿ  ਜਾਹਿ  ਤਾ  ਸੁਖਿ  ਲਹਹਿ  ਮਹਲੁ  ॥੩॥ 
When you arrive in the land of the Formless Lord, you shall find peace in the Mansion of His Presence. ||3|| 

ਲਾਇ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਚਾਕਰੀ  ਮੰਨਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਕੰਮੁ  ॥ 
Let your service be the focusing of your consciousness, and let your occupation be the placing of faith in the Naam.

ਬੰਨੁ  ਬਦੀਆ  ਕਰਿ  ਧਾਵਣੀ  ਤਾ  ਕੋ  ਆਖੈ  ਧੰਨੁ  ॥ 
Let your work be restraint from sin; only then will people call you blessed. 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਵੇਖੈ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਚੜੈ  ਚਵਗਣ  ਵੰਨੁ  ॥੪॥੨॥ 
O Nanak, the Lord shall look upon you with His Glance of Grace, and you shall be blessed with honor four times over. ||4||2|| 


*What is the point of bowing head in front of our guru and reciting it everyday, if we can't understand meaning of this shabad and put into our life?*


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Guru makes us understand Lalihayer Ji, who are we to understand anything. We can only bow our heads, what else can we do, if we cant surrender, cant come under His Hukam, HOW WILL WE BECOME CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING HIM?

Prabh Dori haath tumaarey

He is the greatest of the greatest, teaches us all. Each Word-Each Line-Each Shabad- leading to the Whole Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji. NO DIFFERENCE REMAIN IN THE END.
Hukam rajai chalana naanak likhea naal.


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> Lalihayer Ji,
> 
> All these lines shows the unending humility in Guru Ji, That advocates His Greatness-nobody equal to Him, He is the Lord Himself. Great Job you have done by selecting these quotes for the Sangat, reminded Guru Ji's greatest virtues. Shukrya Janaab.



You know I chose these sentences from Gurbani to show Harsimran Singh ji that we can't take every line literally. 
I agree that there is no difference between Lord and Gurus. 
But what do you think, bhagats are also Lord? If yes, then what are your opinion about Mardana and Bhatt, they are Lord too? Where do you draw the line?  Please don't say you see Lord in hindu idols too.


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> Guru makes us understand Lalihayer Ji, who are we to understand anythig.
> 
> Prabh Dori haath tumaarey
> 
> He is the greatest of the greatest, teaches us all. Each Word-Each Line-Each Shabad-   leading to the Whole Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji. NO DIFFERENCE REMAIN IN THE END.


I am hard determinist too. But are you saying you can reach to Lord without any effort on your part?


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Tan vi tera, Man vi tera--- what is mine? nothing- so who is me? nothing. 

tera tujh ko soanp te kia laage mera.


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Whose effort?----KARTA PURKH  who is!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lalihayer (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> Guru makes us understand Lalihayer Ji, who are we to understand anything. We can only bow our heads, what else can we do, if we cant surrender, cant come under His Hukam, HOW WILL WE BECOME CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING HIM?
> .



Gurus did all the efforts to collect bhagat bani from all the sources all over india and then got Guru Granth Sahib written with hard work of months just to make sure Guru's sikhs can get directions from 'shabad guru' after Gurus merge with Lord. 
*And sikhs could only bow their head in front Guru Granth? No effort is needed to understand Guru's message?*


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> Gurus did all the efforts to collect bhagat bani from all the sources all over india and then got Guru Granth Sahib written with hard work of months just to make sure Guru's sikhs can get directions from 'shabad guru' after Gurus merge with Lord.
> *And sikhs could only bow their head in front Guru Granth? No effort is needed to understand Guru's message?*


 
Wow


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 and lalihayer jios

Just my two cents worth of understanding. You are both talking about vichaar and you are both standing in the same river. This river has two strong currents that are rushing past one another. One current is a current of understanding. The other current is also a current of understanding. They are parallel to one another but they are found in the same river. The sound made by these two currents is so loud that it is hard for a person standing in one current to hear what the other person is saying. One current is the current of mental effort. The other current is the current of Guru's kirpa. The force of these currents is the same - they flow by the Glance of His Grace.

Please forgive me.


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Honey22 and lalihayer jios
> 
> Just my two cents worth of understanding. You are both talking about vichaar and you are both standing in the same river. This river has two strong currents that are rushing past one another. One current is a current of understanding. The other current is also a current of understanding. They are parallel to one another but they are found in the same river. The sound made by these two currents is so loud that it is hard for a person standing in one current to hear what the other person is saying. One current is the current of mental effort. The other current is the current of Guru's kirpa. The force of these currents is the same - they flow by the Glance of His Grace.
> 
> Please forgive me.


 
For me neech moorkh anna, the Glance of His Grace is Guru Kirpa


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 ji

And what about mental effort? Not by the Glance of His Grace? Excuse me i am cross-eyed.


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Mind is His not mine Ji.

Mann vi tera Tann vi Tera.  Mind and Body both are His Property:happy:


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2008)

That is true. That is why two currents are flowing in the same river. Mais non?

Actually I am cheating now because there is a rule - No participating if moderating - May have to stop.


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## Honey22 (Jul 8, 2008)

Awsw mhlw 5 ]
audmu krau krwvhu Twkur pyKq swDU sMig ]
hir hir nwmu crwvhu rMgin Awpy hI pRB rMig ]1]
mn mih rwm nwmw jwip ]
kir ikrpw vshu myrY ihrdY hoie shweI Awip ]1] rhwau ]
suix suix nwmu qumwrw pRIqm pRBu pyKn kw cwau ]
dieAw krhu ikrm Apuny kau iehY mnorQu suAwau ]2]
qnu Dnu qyrw qUM pRBu myrw hmrY vis ikCu nwih ]
ijau ijau rwKih iqau iqau rhxw qyrw dIAw Kwih ]3]
jnm jnm ky iklivK kwtY mjnu hir jn DUir ]
Bwie Bgiq Brm Bau nwsY hir nwnk sdw hjUir ]4]4]139]


Awsw mhlw 5 ]
audmu krau krwvhu Twkur pyKq swDU sMig ]
hir hir nwmu crwvhu rMgin Awpy hI pRB rMig ]1]
mn mih rwm nwmw jwip ]
kir ikrpw vshu myrY ihrdY hoie shweI Awip ]1] rhwau ]
suix suix nwmu qumwrw pRIqm pRBu pyKn kw cwau ]
dieAw krhu ikrm Apuny kau iehY mnorQu suAwau ]2]
qnu Dnu qyrw qUM pRBu myrw hmrY vis ikCu nwih ]
ijau ijau rwKih iqau iqau rhxw qyrw dIAw Kwih ]3]
jnm jnm ky iklivK kwtY mjnu hir jn DUir ]
Bwie Bgiq Brm Bau nwsY hir nwnk sdw hjUir ]4]4]139]


Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
I make the effort, as You cause me to do, my Lord and Master, to behold You in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.
I am imbued with the color of the Love of the Lord, Har, Har; God Himself has colored me in His Love. ||1||
I chant the Lord's Name within my mind.
Bestow Your Mercy, and dwell within my heart; please, become my Helper. ||1||Pause||
Listening continually to Your Name, O Beloved God, I yearn to behold You.
Please, be kind to me - I am just a worm. This is my object and purpose. ||2||
My body and wealth are Yours; You are my God - nothing is in my power.
As You keep me, so do I live; I eat what You give me. ||3||
The sins of countless incarnations are washed away, by bathing in the dust of the Lord's humble servants.
By loving devotional worship, doubt and fear depart; O Nanak, the Lord is Ever-present. ||4||4||139||
:happy::happy:


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2008)

Honey22 said:


> Awsw mhlw 5 ]
> audmu krau krwvhu Twkur pyKq swDU sMig ]
> hir hir nwmu crwvhu rMgin Awpy hI pRB rMig ]1]
> mn mih rwm nwmw jwip ]
> ...



This works for me.


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## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

Honey22 ji,
Beatiful shabad you posted from fifth master. He didn't just said it, but lived by it accepting Lord's will saying
*ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
His Will seems sweet to me.*ਪੰਨਾ 896, ਸਤਰ 4
Staying in 'Bhana' or 'raza' is one of major tenat of sikhi. That is one the reason a sikh would never hesitate from martyrdom (not for greed of heaven or virgins but acceptance of His will) , sikh would never lose control in face of death or pain bacause a sikh accepts His will and believe what is suppose to happen, will happen. This shabad and many more (maybe over hundreds) shabad's in Gurbani showed Lord's total control, even over our thoughts. Sikhi totally support 100% pre-destiny. This needs another thread as there is so much to discuss (if somebody want to).  But does that mean I should sleep off every morning waiting for Guru to wake me up and put whole bani in my mind? I don't think so. 
After shaheedi of fifth master (accepting Lord's will like a sweet), sixth master started wearing arms. This is another aspect of sikhi. Staying in 'Bhana' is must for a sikh, so a sikh should happily accept Lord's will, but concept of staying in 'bhana' is not to make sikh lazy or coward waiting for Lord to send help. Lord is not going to break His own laws of nature to send special help for us, because we believe in guru's words 100%, but don't feel like living what guru told us.
Some of my sikh brethern have done tremendous effort starting this website to discuss sikh matters. You suppose they should have sit home waiting for Lord to send cheque to start sikhi website.


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## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

Honey22 ji, 
i don't think there is much to discuss.  You posted this shabad from fifth master to answer my question. Actually this shabad can be posted to answer any question. I can tell my parents I failed my year in university because it was His wish. I can eat off all my roommats' stuff in fridge blaming it on Lord. 
We must accept absolute control of Lord (*me specially*) over our thoughts and lives, but not to make excuse to avoid making any effort.
Guru Rakha.
I can be reached at  laal.singh2@gmail.com.


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## Honey22 (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> Honey22 ji,
> Beatiful shabad you posted from fifth master. He didn't just said it, but lived by it accepting Lord's will saying
> *ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਮੀਠਾ ॥*
> *His Will seems sweet to me.*ਪੰਨਾ 896, ਸਤਰ 4
> ...


 


lalihayer said:


> Honey22 ji,
> i don't think there is much to discuss. You posted this shabad from fifth master to answer my question. Actually this shabad can be posted to answer any question. I can tell my parents I failed my year in university because it was His wish. I can eat off all my roommats' stuff in fridge blaming it on Lord.
> We must accept absolute control of Lord (*me specially*) over our thoughts and lives, but not to make excuse to avoid making any effort.
> Guru Rakha.
> I can be reached at [EMAIL="laal.singh2@gmail.com."]laal.singh2@gmail.com.[/EMAIL]


 

Wow.

There is only One Karta Purkh.:happy: If He dosn't Will and He doesn't Do, human body(whom you may think is seprate) cant take another breath. 

Checks also come from God Himself, and He is the Doer-There is no second.
Your Friends are no seprate entities from Him. It is Him doing everything. No body can make any effort if He doesnt Do. . 

Awsw mhlw 4 ]
qUM krqw sicAwru mYfw sWeI ]
jo qau BwvY soeI QIsI jo qUM dyih soeI hau pweI ]1] rhwau ]
sB qyrI qUM sBnI iDAwieAw ]
ijs no ik®pw krih iqin nwm rqnu pwieAw ]
gurmuiK lwDw mnmuiK gvwieAw ]
quDu Awip ivCoiVAw Awip imlwieAw ]1]
qUM drIAwau sB quJ hI mwih ]
quJ ibnu dUjw koeI nwih ]
jIA jMq siB qyrw Kylu ]
ivjoig imil ivCuiVAw sMjogI mylu ]2]
ijs no qU jwxwieih soeI jnu jwxY ]
hir gux sd hI AwiK vKwxY ]
ijin hir syivAw iqin suKu pwieAw ]
shjy hI hir nwim smwieAw ]3]
qU Awpy krqw qyrw kIAw sBu hoie ]
quDu ibnu dUjw Avru n koie ]
qU kir kir vyKih jwxih soie ]
jn nwnk gurmuiK prgtu hoie ]4]2]


Aasaa, Fourth Mehl:
You are the True Creator, my Lord and Master.
Whatever pleases You comes to pass. As You give, so do we receive. ||1||Pause||
All belong to You, all meditate on you.
Those who are blessed with Your Mercy obtain the Jewel of the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
The Gurmukhs obtain it, and the self-willed manmukhs lose it.
You Yourself separate them from Yourself, and You Yourself reunite with them again. ||1||
You are the River of Life; all are within You.
There is no one except You.
All living beings are Your playthings.
The separated ones meet, and by great good fortune, those suffering in separation are reunited once again. ||2||
They alone understand, whom You inspire to understand;
they continually chant and repeat the Lord's Praises.
Those who serve You find peace.
They are intuitively absorbed into the Lord's Name. ||3||
You Yourself are the Creator. Everything that happens is by Your Doing.
There is no one except You.
You created the creation; You behold it and understand it.
O servant Nanak, the Lord is revealed through the Gurmukh, the Living Expression of the Guru's Word. ||4||2||




rwgu mwJ AstpdIAw mhlw 1 Gru 1
<> siqgur pRswid ]
sbid rMgwey hukim sbwey ]
scI drgh mhil bulwey ]
scy dIn dieAwl myry swihbw scy mnu pqIAwvixAw ]1]
hau vwrI jIau vwrI sbid suhwvixAw ]
AMimRq nwmu sdw suKdwqw gurmqI mMin vswvixAw ]1] rhwau ]
nw ko myrw hau iksu kyrw ]
swcw Twkuru iqRBvix myrw ]
haumY kir kir jwie GxyrI kir Avgx pCoqwvixAw ]2]
hukmu pCwxY su hir gux vKwxY ]
gur kY sbid nwim nIswxY ]
sBnw kw dir lyKw scY CUtis nwim suhwvixAw ]3]
mnmuKu BUlw Tauru n pwey ]
jm dir bDw cotw Kwey ]
ibnu nwvY ko sMig n swQI mukqy nwmu iDAwvixAw ]4]
swkq kUVy scu n BwvY ]
duibDw bwDw AwvY jwvY ]
iliKAw lyKu n mytY koeI gurmuiK mukiq krwvixAw ]5]
pyeIAVY ipru jwqo nwhI ]
JUiT ivCuMnI rovY DwhI ]
Avgix muTI mhlu n pwey Avgx guix bKswvixAw ]6]
pyeIAVY ijin jwqw ipAwrw ]
gurmuiK bUJY qqu bIcwrw ]
Awvxu jwxw Twik rhwey scY nwim smwvixAw ]7]
gurmuiK bUJY AkQu khwvY ]
scy Twkur swco BwvY ]
nwnk scu khY bynµqI scu imlY gux gwvixAw ]8]1]



Raag Maajh, Ashtapadees: First Mehl, First House:
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
By His Command, all are attuned to the Word of the Shabad,
and all are called to the Mansion of His Presence, the True Court of the Lord.
O my True Lord and Master, Merciful to the meek, my mind is pleased and appeased by the Truth. ||1||
I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who are adorned with the Word of the Shabad.
The Ambrosial Naam, the Name of the Lord, is forever the Giver of Peace. Through the Guru's Teachings, it dwells in the mind. ||1||Pause||
No one is mine, and I am no one else's.
The True Lord and Master of the three worlds is mine.
Acting in egotism, so very many have died. After making mistakes, they later repent and regret. ||2||
Those who recognize the Hukam of the Lord's Command chant the Glorious Praises of the Lord.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, they are glorified with the Naam.
Everyone's account is kept in the True Court, and through the Beauty of the Naam, they are saved. ||3||
The self-willed manmukhs are deluded; they find no place of rest.
Bound and gagged at Death's Door, they are brutally beaten.
Without the Name, there are no companions or friends. Liberation comes only by meditating on the Naam. ||4||
The false shaaktas, the faithless cynics, do not like the Truth.
Bound by duality, they come and go in reincarnation.
No one can erase pre-recorded destiny; the Gurmukhs are liberated. ||5||
In this world of her parents' house, the young bride did not know her Husband.
Through falsehood, she has been separated from Him, and she cries out in misery.
Defrauded by demerits, she does not find the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. But through virtuous actions, her demerits are forgiven. ||6||
She, who knows her Beloved in her parents' house,
as Gurmukh, comes to understand the essence of reality; she contemplates her Lord.
Her comings and goings cease, and she is absorbed in the True Name. ||7||
The Gurmukhs understand and describe the Indescribable.
True is our Lord and Master; He loves the Truth.
Nanak offers this true prayer: singing His Glorious Praises, I merge with the True One. ||8||1||

 
No excuses Lalihayer Ji, no excuses, THIS IS ALL IS HIS PRAISE- ONE AND ONLY ONE.


BYrau mhlw 4 ]
siB Gt qyry qU sBnw mwih ]
quJ qy bwhir koeI nwih ]1]
hir suKdwqw myry mn jwpu ]
hau quDu swlwhI qU myrw hir pRBu bwpu ]1] rhwau ]
jh jh dyKw qh hir pRBu soie ]
sB qyrY vis dUjw Avru n koie ]2]
ijs kau qum hir rwiKAw BwvY ]
iqs kY nyVY koie n jwvY ]3]
qU jil Qil mhIAil sB qY BrpUir ]
jn nwnk hir jip hwjrw hjUir ]4]4]


Bhairao, Fourth Mehl:
All hearts are Yours, Lord; You are in all.
There is nothing at all except You. ||1||
O my mind, meditate on the Lord, the Giver of peace.
I praise You, O Lord God, You are my Father. ||1||Pause||
Wherever I look, I see only the Lord God.
All are under Your control; there is no other at all. ||2||
O Lord, when it is Your Will to save someone,
then nothing can threaten him. ||3||
You are totally pervading and permeating the waters, the lands, the skies and all places.
Servant Nanak meditates on the Ever-present Lord. ||4||4||


No need to give emails out, I dont need it- Guru Mere Sang Sadaa Hai Naalay.
He has given us this medium for conversation in which you think your friends have invested a lot of THEIR money and THEIT time- let us USE this one.

Thanks


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> Gurus did all the efforts to collect bhagat bani from all the sources all over india and then got Guru Granth Sahib written with hard work of months just to make sure Guru's sikhs can get directions from 'shabad guru' after Gurus merge with Lord.
> *And sikhs could only bow their head in front Guru Granth? No effort is needed to understand Guru's message?*


 
I always thought BabaJi tells that all is God's effort and Guru is no different than God Himself. Gurbani is timeless treasure-eternal.

If God Guru Baba Ji doesn't bless us how can we understand Him!. Without bowing our heads, is their another way to Him! 

BabaJi's Hukam:   Sir Dhar Tali Galee Meri Aao   :wink:


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

email is not for you honey22 ji. You are not he only one reading this post. You already got everything figured out. It is for us sikhs, who are still at lower level.  
I just hope sikhs don't become like 50,000 of somnath temple defenders who kept on singing praising  lord somnath to defend them instead of fightinhg invaders and mahmud ghazvi killed and looted them with 20,000 men. 
I don't even believe your sincerity in this subject (Lord's full control over our actions). You don't even seem like believing in Almighty's control over us, more like you are making fun of it.  
I think you guessed it right. Lord want you to keep cutting and paste here instead of discussing anything. And Lord want me to do something else somewhere. 
For interested sikhs, though sikhi believe in hard determisnism, Guru Nanak also discussed about discpline and effor on your part (saram khand in japji).
Guru Rakha and good bye.


----------



## Honey22 (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> email is not for you honey22 ji. You are not he only one reading this post. *You already got everything figured out*. It is for us sikhs, who are still at lower level.
> I just hope sikhs don't become like 50,000 of somnath temple defenders who kept on singing praising lord somnath to defend them instead of fightinhg invaders and mahmud ghazvi killed and looted them with 20,000 men.
> I don't even believe your sincerity in this subject (Lord's full control over our actions). You don't even seem like believing in Almighty's control over us, more like you are making fun of it.
> I think you guessed it right. Lord want you to keep cutting and paste here instead of discussing anything. And Lord want me to do something else somewhere.
> ...


 

Wow


God, Lord Dhan Guru Ji has figured out everything:yes:.

:happy:Good Luck :happy:


----------



## Honey22 (Jul 9, 2008)

O Siblings of Destiny, let none think that they have any power. All act as the Lord causes them to act.




gauVI bYrwgix mhlw 4 ]
ijau jnnI suqu jix pwlqI rwKY ndir mJwir ]
AMqir bwhir muiK dy igrwsu iKnu iKnu pocwir ]
iqau siqguru gurisK rwKqw hir pRIiq ipAwir ]1]
myry rwm hm bwirk hir pRB ky hY ieAwxy ]
DMnu DMnu gurU guru siqguru pwDw ijin hir aupdysu dy kIey isAwxy ]1] rhwau ]
jYsI ggin iPrMqI aUfqI kpry bwgy vwlI ]
Eh rwKY cIqu pICY ibic bcry inq ihrdY swir smwlI ]
iqau siqgur isK pRIiq hir hir kI guru isK rKY jIA nwlI ]2]
jYsy kwqI qIs bqIs hY ivic rwKY rsnw mws rqu kyrI ]
koeI jwxhu mws kwqI kY ikCu hwiQ hY sB vsgiq hY hir kyrI ]
iqau sMq jnw kI nr inMdw krih hir rwKY pYj jn kyrI ]3]
BweI mq koeI jwxhu iksI kY ikCu hwiQ hY sB kry krwieAw ]
jrw mrw qwpu isriq swpu sBu hir kY vis hY koeI lwig n skY ibnu hir kw lwieAw ]
AYsw hir nwmu min iciq iniq iDAwvhu jn nwnk jo AMqI Aausir ley CfwieAw ]4]7]13]51]


Gauree Bairaagan, Fourth Mehl:
Just as the mother, having given birth to a son, feeds him and keeps him in her vision
- indoors and outdoors, she puts food in his mouth; each and every moment, she caresses him.
In just the same way, the True Guru protects His GurSikhs, who love their Beloved Lord. ||1||
O my Lord, we are just the ignorant children of our Lord God.
Hail, hail, to the Guru, the Guru, the True Guru, the Divine Teacher who has made me wise through the Lord's Teachings. ||1||Pause||
The white flamingo circles through the sky,
but she keeps her young ones in her mind; she has left them behind, but she constantly remembers them in her heart.
In just the same way, the True Guru loves His Sikhs. The Lord cherishes His GurSikhs, and keeps them clasped to His Heart. ||2||
Just as the tongue, made of flesh and blood, is protected within the scissors of the thirty-two teeth
who thinks that the power lies in the flesh or the scissors? Everything is in the Power of the Lord.
In just the same way, when someone slanders the Saint, the Lord preserves the honor of His servant. ||3||
O Siblings of Destiny, let none think that they have any power. All act as the Lord causes them to act.
Old age, death, fever, poisons and snakes - everything is in the Hands of the Lord. Nothing can touch anyone without the Lord's Order.
Within your conscious mind, O servant Nanak, meditate forever on the Name of the Lord, who shall deliver you in the end. ||4||7||13||51||


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

Lalihayer said:
			
		

> I just hope sikhs don't become like 50,000 of somnath temple defenders who kept on singing praising lord somnath to defend them instead of fightinhg invaders and mahmud ghazvi killed and looted them with 20,000 men.


 
What if that's what God Wills. Can you stop.

First of all Sikhs are all over the world- so need a huge army and resources and big intellegence service network worldwide to kill them. Baba Ji's Bir is not only believed by Sikhs alone either so new Sikhs are born every day- so it is impossible task anyways.

 Sir Lalihayer Ji , Sikh Guru Our Lord Guru 5th Nanak Ji, the Creator Himself Sat on a hot plate- He didn't fight against that.

Sikh Guru Our Lord, 9th Nanak, the Creator Himself Sacrificed a human body in Chandichowk- didn't fight against that.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

Guru is eternal, taking care of His Sikhs everywhere and everyminute.


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

SadeePuri said:


> What if that's what God Wills. Can you stop.
> 
> First of all Sikhs are all over the world- so need a huge army and resources and big intellegence service network worldwide to kill them. Baba Ji's Bir is not only believed by Sikhs alone either so new Sikhs are born every day- so it is impossible task anyways.
> 
> ...


You agree with 5 and 9th master, does'nt seem to agree with 6th and 10th masters actions. So now you *pick and choose* gurus to follow.


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

SadeePuri said:


> Guru is eternal, taking care of His Sikhs everywhere and everyminute.


Guru (Lord) is taking care of His sikhs. What about rest of humanity? So guru is favouring his sikhs over rest of non-sikhs? Please explain.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> You agree with 5 and 9th master, does'nt seem to agree with 6th and 10th masters actions. So now you *pick and choose* gurus to follow.


 
Who told you I am not in agreement with 6th and 10th Master.

6th and 10th Nanak is in 11th. same as 5th and 9th

Let me say it more clearly:
Nanak
 God 
Guru 
BabaJi 
Har
Hari
Parmatma
Wahe Guru
Lord
Almighty
 Guru Nanak Dev Ji
Guru Angad Dev Ji
Guru Amar Das Ji
Guru Ram Das Ji
Guru Arjun Dev Ji
Guru Har Gobind Ji
Guru Har Rai Ji
Guru Har Krishan Ji
Guru TegBahadur Ji
Guru Gobind Singh Ji
Guru Granth Sahib Ji
All Bhagats of the World
All Saints of the World
All Brahmgyanis of the World
All Self Realized People
His Creation
The Creator


I see One and Only one everywhere-  People can have problem with that, this is also His Will. He is directing me in this direction, Him being All and everything- Me kiram jant has nothing to worry about.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

Je bhukh den ta ith hi rajon dukh vich sookh manai:rofl!!:


lalihayer said:


> Guru (Lord) is taking care of His sikhs. What about rest of humanity? So guru is favouring his sikhs over rest of non-sikhs? Please explain.


 
Where did I say Lord/God is not taking care of the humanity? Where did you hear that?
It seems like you are hearing all wrong things  about me  OK as He Wills, no worry at all. :rofl!!:
He is everywhere, doing all as He Wills. 

HE IS.


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

SadeePuri ji,
You said,"_*Sikh Guru Our Lord Guru 5th Nanak Ji, the Creator Himself Sat on a hot plate- He didn't fight against that.

Sikh Guru Our Lord, 9th Nanak, the Creator Himself Sacrificed a human body in Chandichowk- didn't fight against that."*_ 

But 6th and 10th master fought against that. So in your opinion, 6th and 10th master were fighting against His will?


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> SadeePuri ji,
> You said,"_*Sikh Guru Our Lord Guru 5th Nanak Ji, the Creator Himself Sat on a hot plate- He didn't fight against that.*_
> 
> _*Sikh Guru Our Lord, 9th Nanak, the Creator Himself Sacrificed a human body in Chandichowk- didn't fight against that."*_
> ...


 
funny, very funny.
When did I disagree with 6th and 10th master? When Did I say 6thGuru and 10th Guru went against His Will?

When 5th Nanak sat on Hot plate 6th Nanak was performing duties as God Willed Him to do.
9th Nanak was provided the suggestion for the sacrifice Himself from 10th nanak.

very funny Ji


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

All Guru's are in His Will. As Guru is not seperate than Him. One and only One. And He Himself is directing me towards this direction. For me kiram jant, all 6th 5th, 10th, 9th and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, and 11th, All Saints, Lord God, His Creation is same One and only One. There is no distinction at all.

You can impose allegations on me as you want, this no way going to change this realization as it is coming from the Creator Himself. I am just a Kiram Jant, the most neechan neech.

first you declared- 


> Originally Posted by *lalihayer*
> 
> 
> _Guru (Lord) is taking care of His sikhs. What about rest of humanity? So guru is favouring his sikhs over rest of non-sikhs? Please explain._


I asked where did I say this- no answer from you on that:star::star::star::star::star:

second you declared in response of the allegation you imposed on me without me saying anything about it-



> SadeePuri ji,
> You said,"_*Sikh Guru Our Lord Guru 5th Nanak Ji, the Creator Himself Sat on a hot plate- He didn't fight against that.*_
> 
> _*Sikh Guru Our Lord, 9th Nanak, the Creator Himself Sacrificed a human body in Chandichowk- didn't fight against that."*_
> ...


 

What is this all about? I gave my opinion in my post that was in disagreement of your. I never made up a single thing and imposed any allegation on you Sir Lalihayer Ji. 

Anyways thanks a lot for all this


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

So I am '*bura*' now. And you doing '*bhalaa*' by cutting and pasting Gurbani. That exposed your hypocrisy. You judged me as '*bura*'.
You are worried , but pretending to live in His will.


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

I am firm believer in His will. *But you are making fun of it*. Whenever you don't have any answer, you cut and paste shabad from another site. 
There is no point in playing with words.
Guru Rakha.


----------



## spnadmin (Jul 9, 2008)

*Note: Please debate the issues. This applies to everyone posting on this thread. And referring to Gurbani doesn't make it better.

Up to this point everyone has managed to keep a cool head in spite of the deep passions felt about interpretations of Gurbani. Debate the issues not the personalities, as in Forum Rule 3A. Thank you.*


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> *Note: Please debate the issues. This applies to everyone posting on this thread. Up to this point everyone has managed to keep a cool head in spite of the deep passions felt about interpretations of Gurbani. Debate the issues not the personalities, as in Forum Rule 3A. Thank you.*


 
As you said everyone- Please explain my fault- I am ready to correct it. Please.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> I am firm believer in His will. *But you are making fun of it*. Whenever you don't have any answer, you cut and paste shabad from another site.
> There is no point in playing with words.
> Guru Rakha.


 
I am not making fun of His Will at all.
I am not deprived of any answers, Guru my Lord provides this kiramjant with answers for everything. 

Thanks
and Thank God


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

He is the greatest. There is nothing equal to Him. All that happens is His Will. I dont know anything. I neechan neech do as Guru God Master BabaJi tells me to do. My head is in His Charan. He can keep it, kick it, or embrace it- all His Will.


ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ 
vaddaa saahib vaddee naaee keethaa jaa kaa hovai ||
Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥ 
naanak jae ko aapa jaanai agai gaeiaa n sohai ||21||
O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

sadeepuri ji,
I don't disagree you about definition of Lord. He is so vast even contradictory looking statements are true too. Satguru Nanak said in his first pauri,
ਸੋਚੈ  ਸੋਚਿ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਸੋਚੀ  ਲਖ  ਵਾਰ  ॥ 
It is out of human comprehension. Even tiniest particle of universe is controlled by Lord. Our thoughts are what He wants. 
But you claimed to be so much into His will. Lord wanted me debate you so you call me 'bura'  and swearing in next post that you never called me 'bura', knowing that computers always carry records. Even if you called me 'bura', you should have at least stuck to it.

Guru Rakha.


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

You claimed in your 9.50pm post that *I am not deprived of any answers.* 
SadeePuri ji, I am always looking for answers. I don't have answers for everything. I am a sikh (learner). I cann't claim to know everything. 
In 9.47pm post you said,
*I am not worried, 
I am not judging you,
I am not pretending.*
I have a confession to make. I am worried lot of times, even though I should not be. I also do crime of judging people and pretending from time to time. 
But I do what I can do. I keep on trying to be free of these evils. You posted tuks from bani about Guru's humality, but you are making big claims about yourself.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> You claimed in your 9.50pm post that *I am not deprived of any answers.*
> SadeePuri ji, I am always looking for answers. I don't have answers for everything. I am a sikh (learner). I cann't claim to know everything.
> In 9.47pm post you said,
> *I am not worried, *
> ...


 
Guru God Lord is providing me the answers- I am nothing. What ever He provides me I am satisfied with it. I dont have to worry at all.


----------



## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

I don't think we are doing anything positive. 
I don't have any problem with ego. I am ready to say in big letters, *You are better sikh than me*. *You know more than me.* I think this will settle it. 
Guru Rakha.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> sadeepuri ji,
> I don't disagree you about definition of Lord. He is so vast even contradictory looking statements are true too. Satguru Nanak said in his first pauri,
> ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
> It is out of human comprehension. Even tiniest particle of universe is controlled by Lord. Our thoughts are what He wants.
> ...


 
I swear I never addressed you bura. I also know computers keep records. It is bani that I was quoting and it was not at all addressed to You. Why to call you bura?
I was about to write a message on following His Will in the connection of me Kiramjant, and that had nothing to do with you. I was calling myself bura not you at all. I swear if I have addressed anybody bura in my life. I have not taught by Guru Ji to do such things.

Thanks


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> I don't think we are doing anything positive.
> I don't have any problem with ego. I am ready to say in big letters, *You are better sikh than me*. *You know more than me.* I think this will settle it.
> Guru Rakha.


 
You dont need to tell me anything. We are having different views and experience different way of life as HE WILLS. I dont say I am better or I know more.

Guru God BabaJi knows all, He does everything as He Wills. Me Kiramjant is nothing. He answers all the questions as He (Himself) raises the questions as well- I am nothing. This body cant take a next breath if He doesnt Let.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ 
jinee naam pashhaaniaa thin vittahu bal jaao ||
I am a sacrifice to those who recognize the Naam, the Name of the Lord.



ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
aap shhodd charanee lagaa chalaa thin kai bhaae ||
Renouncing selfishness, I fall at their feet, and walk in harmony with His Will.


----------



## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
aapae dhaee th paaeeai hor karanaa kishhoo n jaae ||
He Himself gives, and then we receive. Nothing else can be done.


ਦੇਵਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਕੈ ਹਥਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
dhaevan vaalae kai hathh dhaath hai guroo dhuaarai paae ||
The Gift is in the Hands of the Great Giver. At the Guru's Door, in the Gurdwara, it is received.


ਜੇਹਾ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਤੇਹਾ ਹੋਆ ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ ॥੩॥ 
jaehaa keethon thaehaa hoaa jaehae karam kamaae ||3||
Whatever He does, comes to pass. All act according to His Will. ||3||


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## lalihayer (Jul 9, 2008)

SadeePuri said:


> Who told you I am not in agreement with 6th and 10th Master.
> 
> 6th and 10th Nanak is in 11th. same as 5th and 9th
> 
> ...


 
Now that list of Lords is in place, we should start making list of 'bura's, starting with this 'bura' :yes:


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## Honey22 (Jul 9, 2008)

SadeePuri said:


> Guru God Lord is providing me the answers- I am nothing. What ever He provides me I am satisfied with it. I dont have to worry at all.


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## spnadmin (Jul 9, 2008)

SadeePuri said:


> As you said everyone- Please explain my fault- I am ready to correct it. Please.



*Well, the note was not based on a specific incident but on emotions that were rising high. And it was a reminder. Like an insurance policy.*


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## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> *Well, the note was not based on a specific incident but on emotions that were rising high. And it was a reminder. Like an insurance policy.*


 
Thankyou Ji for the reminder.


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## SadeePuri (Jul 9, 2008)

Honey ji,

 Sharing Gurprasaad Ji:

ਜਗਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ 
jag houmai mail dhukh paaeiaa mal laagee dhoojai bhaae ||
The world is polluted with the filth of egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality.


ਮਲੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਿਵੈ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਜੇ ਸਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥ 
mal houmai dhhothee kivai n outharai jae so theerathh naae ||
This filth of egotism cannot be washed away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines.


ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਦੂਣੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਆਇ ॥ 
bahu bidhh karam kamaavadhae dhoonee mal laagee aae ||
Performing all sorts of rituals, people are smeared with twice as much filth.


ਪੜਿਐ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਗਿਆਨੀਆ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ 
parriai mail n outharai pooshhahu giaaneeaa jaae ||1||
This filth is not removed by studying. Go ahead, and ask the wise ones. ||1||


ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਿ ਆਵੈ ਤਾ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
man maerae gur saran aavai thaa niramal hoe ||
O my mind, coming to the Sanctuary of the Guru, you shall become immaculate and pure.


ਮਨਮੁਖ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਥਕੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਸਕੀ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
manamukh har har kar thhakae mail n sakee dhhoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The self-willed manmukhs have grown weary of chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, but their filth cannot be removed. ||1||Pause||


ਮਨਿ ਮੈਲੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
man mailai bhagath n hovee naam n paaeiaa jaae ||
With a polluted mind, devotional service cannot be performed, and the Naam, the Name of the Lord, cannot be obtained.


ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੈਲੇ ਮੈਲੇ ਮੁਏ ਜਾਸਨਿ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ 
manamukh mailae mailae mueae jaasan path gavaae ||
The filthy, self-willed manmukhs die in filth, and they depart in disgrace.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਲੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
gur parasaadhee man vasai mal houmai jaae samaae ||
By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to abide in the mind, and the filth of egotism is dispelled.


ਜਿਉ ਅੰਧੇਰੈ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਬਾਲੀਐ ਤਿਉ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਤਜਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
jio andhhaerai dheepak baaleeai thio gur giaan agiaan thajaae ||2||
Like a lamp lit in the darkness, the spiritual wisdom of the Guru dispels ignorance. ||2||


ਹਮ ਕੀਆ ਹਮ ਕਰਹਗੇ ਹਮ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਾਵਾਰ ॥ 
ham keeaa ham karehagae ham moorakh gaavaar ||
"I have done this, and I will do that"-I am an idiotic fool for saying this!


ਕਰਣੈ ਵਾਲਾ ਵਿਸਰਿਆ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ 
karanai vaalaa visariaa dhoojai bhaae piaar ||
I have forgotten the Doer of all; I am caught in the love of duality.


ਮਾਇਆ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਸਭਿ ਭਵਿ ਥਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
maaeiaa jaevadd dhukh nehee sabh bhav thhakae sansaar ||
There is no pain as great as the pain of Maya; it drives people to wander all around the world, until they become exhausted.


ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰਿ ॥੩॥ 
guramathee sukh paaeeai sach naam our dhhaar ||3||
Through the Guru's Teachings, peace is found, with the True Name enshrined in the heart. ||3||


ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਮੇਲੇ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਹਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਉ ॥ 
jis no maelae so milai ho this balihaarai jaao ||
I am a sacrifice to those who meet and merge with the Lord.


ਏ ਮਨ ਭਗਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਸਚੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਜ ਥਾਉ ॥ 
eae man bhagathee rathiaa sach baanee nij thhaao ||
This mind is attuned to devotional worship; through the True Word of Gurbani, it finds its own home.


ਮਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਸਚੇ ਗਾਉ ॥ 
man rathae jihavaa rathee har gun sachae gaao ||
With the mind so imbued, and the tongue imbued as well, sing the Glorious Praises of the True Lord.


ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਸਚੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥੪॥੩੧॥੬੪॥ 
naanak naam n veesarai sachae maahi samaao ||4||31||64||
O Nanak, never forget the Naam; immerse yourself in the True One. ||4||31||64||


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## Honey22 (Jul 9, 2008)

:happy:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 10, 2008)

ਪਡ਼-ਪਡ਼ ਆਲਮ ਫਾਜ਼ਿਲ ਹੋਇਆਂ,ਕਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਪਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |
ਜਾ-ਜਾ ਵਡ਼ਦਾਂ ਮੰਦਰ-ਮਸੀਤੀਂ ,ਕਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਵਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |
ਐਵੇਂ ਰੋਜ਼ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ਨਾਲ ਲਡ਼ਦਾਂ,ਕਦੇ ਨਫ਼ਸ ਆਪਣੇ ਨਾਲ ਲਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |
ਬੁੱਲੇ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਅਸਮਾਨੀ ਉਡੱਦਿਆਂ ਫਡ਼ਦਾਂ,ਜਿਹਡ਼ਾ ਘਰ ਬੈਠਾ ਉਹਨੂੰ ਫਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |


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## Astroboy (Jul 11, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2l2phq3RSM&feature=related


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## pk70 (Jul 11, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> ਪਡ਼-ਪਡ਼ ਆਲਮ ਫਾਜ਼ਿਲ ਹੋਇਆਂ,ਕਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਪਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |
> ਜਾ-ਜਾ ਵਡ਼ਦਾਂ ਮੰਦਰ-ਮਸੀਤੀਂ ,ਕਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਵਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |
> ਐਵੇਂ ਰੋਜ਼ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ਨਾਲ ਲਡ਼ਦਾਂ,ਕਦੇ ਨਫ਼ਸ ਆਪਣੇ ਨਾਲ ਲਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |
> ਬੁੱਲੇ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਅਸਮਾਨੀ ਉਡੱਦਿਆਂ ਫਡ਼ਦਾਂ,ਜਿਹਡ਼ਾ ਘਰ ਬੈਠਾ ਉਹਨੂੰ ਫਡ਼ਿਆ ਈ ਨਈਂ |


*amarsanghera ji
It is Bulle Shah at his best, let me translate i*t:star::star::star::star:
*( in essence)
You have become scholar by studying the world knowledge but never try to study your own self
You are looking for HIM in temple and Mosque but never get within where HE resides
uselessly you fight with the Evil one but never battle with your self( mind)
Bulle Shah says you feel elevated high; however the Lord who is within hasn't you realized*


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