# Dera Culture



## Jaswinder Singh Rekhi (Feb 14, 2009)

Most of the sikhs in punjab are following the various ders in Punjab.All the deras are being run by the  so called  Sants (Thugs)  who consider themselves as God's superior messangers.They are ruining the sikh community to the extent of finishing within next ten years


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## Archived_Member16 (Feb 14, 2009)

*FOOD FOR THOUGHT: *​ 
*We must first focus on and define the causes : What attracts the "people" to these Deras ? How can we fulfil those desired needs within the Sikh institutions? Genuine actions are a must, not mere words !*​ 
*Harbhajan*​ 
*source: http://www.southasiapost.org/2007/20071031/features.htm*​ 
*Caste, Gender and the Sikhs*
*By Balvinder*​ 
*T*HE Supreme Court of India recently confirmed life imprisonments for three Sikh men, accused of ‘honour kills’. While delivering the judgment one of the judges, Justice H.S. Bedi expressed his anguish and disbelief by stating that how could such a thing happen in a family of Sikhs, who are fundamentally opposed to caste, based classifications.​ 
The Sikhs are expected nay ordained by their religion to keep their woman folk in high esteem. Yet Punjab, where they are in majority, is currently facing an imbalance in the sex ratio that is tilting heavily against female population; and for no hidden reasons. Both nadi mar [smokers] and kudi mar [killers of daughters] are back with vengeance.​ 
While nothing tangible is being done to tackle these burning issues that have been disturbing the Sikh social fabric, many a non-issue are raked almost regularly.​ 
Specific issues apart, the pictures of 'angst-ridden' protesting Sikhs, belonging to different politico-religious organisations that have come up in large numbers both in India and abroad, keep appearing in the media almost regularly.
The range of these generally 'peaceful' protests, brandishing swords et al, from local to international levels, being so wide, it perhaps can not be measured in quantum. It is another story that many of these seemingly loud agitations, due to their ingenious dramatization by the media, often have less number of actual agitators than the flock of press photographers and journalists!​ 
Equally enigmatic remain the purposes and profits of such recurring agitations. Take for instance the ongoing demonstrations that are being organised against religious 'atrocities' that allegedly are inflicted, rather 'discriminately', particularly upon Sikhs living and working in the Western countries!​ 
'Atrocities'? Like that of preventing, as per the Western local laws, a handful of Sikhs from wearing weapons ('kirpans') or turbans at work places or educational institutions. These outwardly 'anguished' protest-fights by many a local Sikh group include, apart from the routine road shows, a number of paid-by-others 'taxing' trips to foreign lands also. Mercifully none objects to the wearing of safety helmets, in place of turbans, by the Sikh fighter pilots of Indian Air Force.​ 
*Unfortunately, some of the recent Sikh-religious protests, which are aimed against the 'dera' culture, because of blatant political interferences, have started taking violent shapes in this region. A really disturbing trend indeed that could push Punjab into quagmire of violence that only recently ended.*​ 
Sadly enough, no proactive Sikh religious organisation, local or foreign based, seems to have ever bothered to find reasons that have lead to the abrogation of the traditional turbaned/bearded Sikh-look by a large majority of the Sikhs; youngsters in particular. This unfortunate trend has now penetrated into the Sikh psyche so intensely that today a large number of Sikh girls show their unconcealed preference for 'cut-surds' as their life partners. Innumerable matrimonial ads in the media, emphasising this inclination, sufficiently confirms this fervour.​ 
This fast shrinking Sikh base should, in fact, have been the real cause of worry.​ 
It seems no one's concern to find causes that have lead to the regular mass drift of Sikhs, mostly from the lower social strata,(a distinction that the fundamental doctrine of Sikhism refuses to accept; rather the caste based categorisations are considered offensive), towards comparatively 'newer' and controversial faiths/'deras', and even the putting up of separate caste based gurudwaras.​ 
During more than two-hundred-year long era of living Sikh Gurus, from Guru Nanak (1469 AD - 1539 AD) to Guru Gobind Singh (1666 AD - 1708 AD), only two major, modifications were introduced into Sikhism. Both were necessitated by the changing times and these altered socio-political landscape of Punjab.
The first significant change was pioneered about a century after the birth of Sikhism, by Guru Hargobind, the Sixth Sikh Guru, who added a royal element to Sikhism by adopting a dual role of a saint and a warrior. Another century later the second and the most significant transformation was introduced by Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth and the last living Sikh Guru. He gave Sikhism not only an exclusive warrior like identity but also discontinued the tradition of having living Gurus. It too was timely and wisely considered.​ 
A well intended 'masand' system was started by Guru Ram Das, the fourth Sikh Guru, to raise funds for the construction of the holy tanks in Amritsar. Though initially the system played a successful role in preaching and organising early Sikhism it got corrupted with the passage of time. So Guru Gobind Singh had to put an end to this system.​ 
More than three centuries have passed by since that last major change in Sikhism. However no upward modification, to suit the changed socio political situation, has been introduced into this religion during this rather longish period. Rather the corrupted 'masand' system seems to have returned to the fold.​ 
A majority of people are getting disillusioned not with the mainstream Sikhism as they find no mitigation of the social, cultural and economic problems. The fast rise of many a sub sect within Sikhism, including the emergence of controversial 'Dera' culture and caste-based exclusive 'Gurdwaras', sufficiently substantiates the clogged approach that various managers of the Sikh affairs have been adopting for long.​ 
So it becomes imperative to have a serious re-look at the current functioning of Sikh-affairs, both at the religious and socio-political level, which seemingly is mired in petty politics and outdated customs.​ 
Lead purely by the then popular Bhakti movement Sikhism began as a rationalist revolt against all the prevalent orthodox religious-beliefs that had grown into fraudulent practices and were cause of immense pain to the people. Dr Gokal Chand Narang described this situation as following;" The spring of religion had been chocked up by weeds of unmeaning ceremonials, debasing superstitions, the selfishness of the priests, and the indifference of people. Form had supplanted the reality and the highly spiritual character of the Hinduism had been buried under the ostentatious paraphernalia of sects".​ 
Guru Nanak acutely ridiculed these entire practices trough his 'Bani' (his poetic religious renditions that comprise a major part of the Adi Granth). Despite such a straightforward attack by the first Sikh Guru on both Hindu and Muslim religious rites and traditions that he considered meaningless and unworthy of continuation, the Guru's followers did not drift away from their basic ethnic characters. They continued to be the integral parts of their original cultural identities. Sikhism even after the installation of Guru Granth Sahib as the perpetual Guru of the Sikhs has gone through innumerable upheavals and conflicts.​ 
Sikhism is passing through a relatively stable socio-political phase that is laced by an extensive democratic freedom and a global awareness; it can afford to have a close re-look. It needs to meet the current socio-political scenario in a harmonious way and check the present degradation. Sikhism needs to be re-examined, rather right away.​


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## spnadmin (Feb 14, 2009)

Soul_Jyot ji

Thanks and thanks and thanks and thanks for your astute question at the top of this article.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 14, 2009)

Jaswinder Singh Rekhi said:


> Most of the sikhs in punjab are following the various ders in Punjab.All the deras are being run by the  so called  Sants (Thugs)  who consider themselves as God's superior messangers.They are ruining the sikh community to the extent of finishing within next ten years




My take on this is, the top reasons for this are:

1) Caste - we are hung up on this.
2) No room for Sehajdhari/Mona Sikh - we need to accept this happens
3) Diet - meat/vege debate. To hung up on this. Let people make their own mind up.
4) Women treated like second class. Not enough women running SGPC.
5) Longest beard counts more than spirtuality. We are so fixed with appearance of a Sikh rather than those actually who are acting like Sikhs
6) Ultra right wing sects - like AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ etc put many Sikhs right off.
7) Crappy leadership centrally. Need I say more


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## pk70 (Feb 14, 2009)

randip singh said:


> My take on this is, the top reasons for this are:
> 
> 1) Caste - we are hung up on this.
> 2) No room for Sehajdhari/Mona Sikh - we need to accept this happens
> ...



*I couldn't have put better than this in so nut shell, I wish SGPC leaders could read it to wake from from the slumber to negate Dera influences. thanks*


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## kds1980 (Feb 14, 2009)

The culture of Sants, Dera's and baba's are not only in Punjab but in the entire India.One of the main reason is people want instant cure from their worldly problems Like financial problems,Health etc Which these baba's promises to cure.


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## Jaswinder Singh Rekhi (Feb 16, 2009)

We were not united.we are not united,butwe canr be united.Jat think they are superior.Ramgarhias,Khatris,Kambojs & Labhanas have their own seperate gurudwaras.Even the sikhs baptised by Guru Gobind Singh himself ( Baba Banda Singh Bahadur  and Baba Binod Singh) fought against each other. How we can remain united today?Deras are devouring our religion like vultures.Don't depend on SGPC or DGPC,they have their own nefarious schemes and motives .


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## das (Feb 28, 2009)

*Yes , All that glitters is not gold*
*But Gold does glitter*
*It's hard to find true saints in kalyug*
*But they do exist*
*So never weigh all using the same scale*​In Guru Arjan Dev Ji's prayer Sri Sukhmani Sahib, Guru Ji writes about the virtues of the company of Sadhus and Sants and to the tormentors of Sadhu Sants. Would Guru Sahib Ji have devoted whole sections to Sadhu Sants if they were not held is such high esteem ?

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Ashtapadee From Sri Sukhmani Sahib

*[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*sant kai dookhan aarjaa ghatai.*
        Slandering (tormenting) the Saints, one's life is cut short.
*sant kai dookhan jam tay nahee chhutai.*
        Slandering the Saints, one shall not escape the Messenger of Death.
*sant kai dookhan sukh sabh jaa-ay.*
        Slandering the Saints, all happiness vanishes.
*sant kai dookhan narak meh paa-ay.*
        Slandering the Saints, one falls into hell.
*sant kai dookhan mat ho-ay maleen.*
        Slandering the Saints, the intellect is polluted.
        sant kai dookhan sobhaa tay heen.
        Slandering the Saints, one's reputation is lost.
*sant kay hatay ka-o rakhai na ko-ay.*
        One who is cursed by a Saint cannot be saved.
*sant kai dookhan thaan bharsat ho-ay.*
        Slandering the Saints, one's place is defiled.
*sant kirpaal kirpaa jay karai.*
        But if the Compassionate Saint shows His Kindness,
*naanak satsang nindak bhee tarai. ||1||*
        O Nanak, in the Company of the Saints, the slanderer may still be saved.          ||1||
*sant kay dookhan tay mukh bhavai.*
        Slandering the Saints, one becomes a wry-faced malcontent.
*santan kai dookhan kaag ji-o lavai.
*Slandering the Saints, one croaks like a raven.
*santan kai dookhan sarap jon paa-ay.
*Slandering the Saints, one is reincarnated as a snake.
*sant kai dookhan tarigad jon kirmaa-ay.
*Slandering the Saints, one is reincarnated as a wiggling worm.
*santan kai dookhan tarisnaa meh jalai.
*Slandering the Saints, one burns in the fire of desire.
*sant kai dookhan sabh ko chhalai.
*Slandering the Saints, one tries to deceive everyone.
*sant kai dookhan tayj sabh jaa-ay.
*Slandering the Saints, all one's influence vanishes.
*sant kai dookhan neech neechaa-ay.
*Slandering the Saints, one becomes the lowest of the low.
*sant dokhee kaa thaa-o ko naahi.
*For the slanderer of the Saint, there is no place of rest.
Page 280
*naanak sant bhaavai taa o-ay bhee gat paahi. ||2||
*O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, even then, he may be saved.          ||2||
*sant kaa nindak mahaa attaa-ee.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is the worst evil-doer.
*sant kaa nindak khin tikan na paa-ee.*
        The slanderer of the Saint has not even a moment's rest.
*sant kaa nindak mahaa hati-aaraa.
*The slanderer of the Saint is a brutal butcher.
*sant kaa nindak parmaysur maaraa.
*The slanderer of the Saint is cursed by the Transcendent Lord.
*sant kaa nindak raaj tay heen.
*The slanderer of the Saint has no kingdom.
*sant kaa nindak dukhee-aa ar deen.
*The slanderer of the Saint becomes miserable and poor.
*sant kay nindak ka-o sarab rog.
*The slanderer of the Saint contracts all diseases.
*sant kay nindak ka-o sadaa bijog.
*The slanderer of the Saint is forever separated.
*sant kee nindaa dokh meh dokh.
*To slander a Saint is the worst sin of sins.
*naanak sant bhaavai taa us kaa bhee ho-ay mokh. ||3||
*O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even this one may be liberated.          ||3||
*sant kaa dokhee sadaa apvit.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is forever impure.
*sant kaa dokhee kisai kaa nahee mit.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is nobody's friend.
*sant kay dokhee ka-o daan laagai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint shall be punished.
*sant kay dokhee ka-o sabh ti-aagai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is abandoned by all.
*sant kaa dokhee mahaa ahaNkaaree.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is totally egocentric.
*sant kaa dokhee sadaa bikaaree.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is forever corrupt.
*sant kaa dokhee janmai marai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint must endure birth and death.
*sant kee dookhnaa sukh tay tarai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is devoid of peace.
*sant kay dokhee ka-o naahee thaa-o.*
        The slanderer of the Saint has no place of rest.
*naanak sant bhaavai taa la-ay milaa-ay. ||4||*
        O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even such a one may merge in union.          ||4||
*sant kaa dokhee aDh beech tay tootai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint breaks down mid-way.
*sant kaa dokhee kitai kaaj na pahoochai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint cannot accomplish his tasks.
*sant kay dokhee ka-o udi-aan bharmaa-ee-ai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint wanders in the wilderness.
*sant kaa dokhee ujharh paa-ee-ai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is misled into desolation.
*sant kaa dokhee antar tay thothaa.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is empty inside,
*ji-o saas binaa mirtak kee lothaa.*
        like the corpse of a dead man, without the breath of life.
*sant kay dokhee kee jarh kichh naahi.*
        The slanderer of the Saint has no heritage at all.
*aapan beej aapay hee khaahi.*
        He himself must eat what he has planted.
*sant kay dokhee ka-o avar na raakhanhaar.*
        The slanderer of the Saint cannot be saved by anyone else.
*naanak sant bhaavai taa la-ay ubaar. ||5||*
        O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even he may be saved. ||5||
*sant kaa dokhee i-o billaa-ay.*
        The slanderer of the Saint bewails like this 
*ji-o jal bihoon machhulee tarhafrhaa-ay.*
        - like a fish, out of water, writhing in agony.
*sant kaa dokhee bhookhaa nahee raajai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is hungry and is never satisfied,
*ji-o paavak eeDhan nahee Dharaapai.*
        as fire is not satisfied by fuel.
*sant kaa dokhee chhutai ikaylaa.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is left all alone,
*ji-o boo-aarh til khayt maahi duhaylaa.*
        like the miserable barren sesame stalk abandoned in the field.
*sant kaa dokhee Dharam tay rahat.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is devoid of faith.
*sant kaa dokhee sad mithi-aa kahat.*
        The slanderer of the Saint constantly lies.
*kirat nindak kaa Dhur hee pa-i-aa.*
        The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
*naanak jo tis bhaavai so-ee thi-aa. ||6||*
        O Nanak, whatever pleases God's Will comes to pass. ||6||
*sant kaa dokhee bigarh roop ho-ay jaa-ay.*
        The slanderer of the Saint becomes deformed.
*sant kay dokhee ka-o dargeh milai sajaa-ay.*
        The slanderer of the Saint receives his punishment in the Court of the          Lord.
*sant kaa dokhee sadaa sahkaa-ee-ai.*
        The slanderer of the Saint is eternally in limbo.
*sant kaa dokhee na marai na jeevaa-ee-ai.*
        He does not die, but he does not live either.
*sant kay dokhee kee pujai na aasaa.*
        The hopes of the slanderer of the Saint are not fulfilled.
*sant kaa dokhee uth chalai niraasaa.*
        The slanderer of the Saint departs disappointed.
*sant kai dokh na taristai ko-ay.*
        Slandering the Saint, no one attains satisfaction.
[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*jaisaa bhaavai taisaa ko-ee ho-ay.*
        As it pleases the Lord, so do people become;
*pa-i-aa kirat na maytai ko-ay.*
        no one can erase their past actions.
*naanak jaanai sachaa so-ay. ||7||*
        O Nanak, the True Lord alone knows all. ||7||
*sabh ghat tis kay oh karnaihaar.*
        All hearts are His; He is the Creator.
*sadaa sadaa tis ka-o namaskaar.*
        Forever and ever, I bow to Him in reverence.
*parabh kee ustat karahu din raat.*
        Praise God, day and night.
*tiseh Dhi-aavahu saas giraas.*
        Meditate on Him with every breath and morsel of food.
*sabh kachh vartai tis kaa kee-aa.*
        Everything happens as He wills.
*jaisaa karay taisaa ko thee-aa.*
        As He wills, so people become.
*apnaa khayl aap karnaihaar.*
        He Himself is the play, and He Himself is the actor.
*doosar ka-un kahai beechaar.*
        Who else can speak or deliberate upon this?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]

*Bhul Chuk Maaf

*[/FONT]


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 28, 2009)

The "SANT" in the above ashtpadee is WAHEGURU. Only HE can "merge" those He wants with HIMSELF..and Only His "qualities" are described herein.
Meaning of "sant" as a human being is taken on the same note whereby some take the MOHAN shabds..Mohan tere ucheeh mandir...to be a Person called Mohan son of Guru Amar Dass ji. MOHAN in those shabads is WAHEGURU....and NOT the human being called Mohan.
Gurbani is not so simplistic...i am surprised at the superficial take accepted. GURU JI went all over the known WORLD....and yet the SGGS is ALL about WAHEGURU and WAHEGURU ALONE. Bhagat kabir Ji si more down to earth and BLUNT..when He declares..RAHIO SANT ME TOLL>>SAADH Bhautereh ditthey...I went looking for "SANT"..all i met were mere saadhs ( exteriorly holy men ) I saw a lot of THUGGHS and in BENARAS..the HOLIEST of all HOLIES cities where the entire population is of "holy Men" !!!
Anyway all those hanging around the "deras" of these so called Sants are NOT looking for any GURBANI EXPOSITIONS....most of them simply want....sons...good jobs...wives...plane ticket and visa to the West....a lottery...and they think the sant can give them all this with a stroke of his magic wand. This is why these sants and deras seldom do GURBANI KIRTAN or GURBANI KATHA.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Jio.:welcome:


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## das (Feb 28, 2009)

Yes This is True For Sadhus , Sants ,  Brahamgyani's , Vaishnav mentioned in Sri Sukhmani Sahib  & Guru Granth Sahib Ji . They all are messengers of Waheguru .


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 28, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The "SANT" in the above ashtpadee is WAHEGURU. Only HE can "merge" those He wants with HIMSELF..and Only His "qualities" are described herein.
> Meaning of "sant" as a human being is taken on the same note whereby some take the MOHAN shabds..Mohan tere ucheeh mandir...to be a Person called Mohan son of Guru Amar Dass ji. MOHAN in those shabads is WAHEGURU....and NOT the human being called Mohan.
> Gurbani is not so simplistic...i am surprised at the superficial take accepted. GURU JI went all over the known WORLD....and yet the SGGS is ALL about WAHEGURU and WAHEGURU ALONE. Bhagat kabir Ji si more down to earth and BLUNT..when He declares..RAHIO SANT ME TOLL>>SAADH Bhautereh ditthey...I went looking for "SANT"..all i met were mere saadhs ( exteriorly holy men ) I saw a lot of THUGGHS and in BENARAS..the HOLIEST of all HOLIES cities where the entire population is of "holy Men" !!!
> Anyway all those hanging around the "deras" of these so called Sants are NOT looking for any GURBANI EXPOSITIONS....most of them simply want....sons...good jobs...wives...plane ticket and visa to the West....a lottery...and they think the sant can give them all this with a stroke of his magic wand. This is why these sants and deras seldom do GURBANI KIRTAN or GURBANI KATHA.
> ...


 

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said. People fail to understand that our Gurus were NOT into titles. The proof is in the SGGS where they introduced themselves as NUMBERS. Yes, the name Nanak is used at the end of every Shabad by all our Gurus because of the same thought process of Sikhi which continued for more than 200 years which was started by Guru Nanak and secondly it was, and still is an Indian tradition that the writer ends his/her poetry with their names or the pen names they have given themselves.

We know that the words like Bhagats, Sants,Brahamgyanis and other names are mentioned in the SGGS but are not used as titles because each TUK explains the attributes of such a person. In other words how one can be 'to be' rather than ' to have become'.

Guru Nanak says in Japji," Sabh gunh terei , mein nahin koe, vin gun kitei BHAGAT nanh hoi".

Hohnah is the result of the continues actions of goodness. The important thing to notice that if Bhagat were a title then Guru Nanak would have used the word," BANEI". Which means doing one gunh in life gives one's the title of a Bhagat.

Here he is trying to tell us that a Bhagat is the only one that keeps on breeding goodness within and hence keeps on sharing it with others. The day he/she stops doing that, then he/she ceases to be a Bhagat.

In other words, we as Sikhs are like the springs of water. The moment the water dries up- due to our indulgence in Me-ism rather than One-ism- we cease being the springs and are named as just some mere holes in the ground.

So these Dera valas are just holes in the ground and they use their tricks like water pumps- metaphorically speaking, to give the false impression of being springs. Let us also cut off their power cables and take their false generators away.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 28, 2009)

Tejwant Singh Jio,
Gurfateh.

You wrote:...The proof is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where they introduced themselves as *NUMBERS.

YES Mahalla Pehla..dooja teeja chautha panjvaan nauvaan - in SGGS. 
*And secondly the use of the NANAK signature to signify the UNITY of the Divine Message- also in SGGS.
This was done by the Sikh Gurus voluntarily and in humility. While discussing this point in my Gurbani class, a student stood up and raised her hand....Master Ji....Isnt the EXACT SAME procedure adopted by the Prison Authorities for Prisoners ?? she asked..and...

Got me thinking.. YES....the same is FORCIBLY DONE to Prisoners in Prisons - whereby the Prisoned may be a KING..but all he gets is a NUMBER. His/Her outside world ID is destroyed while inside the prison walls. This is done deliberately BY the JAILORS..to OBLITERATE the Haumaii..the Standing..the Dignity..of the jailed person.

Could the two scenarios above be somehow co-related ? One student suggested that IF a "reformer" wants to REFORM the priosners.."He" would be better accepted by the "numbers" in Prison IF he himslef adopted a NUMBER as his/her ID. Otherwise he/she would stand out as DIFFERENT. Thus we have the NANAKS, coming to this "WORLD PRISON" to REFORM ...us the Prisoned...and they adopted the .....HUM NEECH..HUM DHADEE VEKAAR...HUM KOOKAR...approach...and stayed away from "TITLES".."HONOURS"....etc which would have made them "Stand OUT...as different......higher than thou..holier than thou....Better than thou....as OUTSIDERS rather than WITH US !!!....

I had to leave the discussion open ended as I was flabbergasted..to say the least as to the direction of the NUMBERS description had taken....
I would be grateful for your take on the matter....and from AAD ji ( and any one else as well ).....as we continue this on Wednesday evening class.

2. An off-shoot of the Numbers and "with the common man" approach adopted in SGGS...the discussion also encompassed the entirely DIFFERENT approach adopted by the writer of the Dasm Granth. There is NO NUMBER..NO Mahalla..NO "hum Neech..Hum Dhadee vekaar..Hum Kookar..etc..BUT "PATSHAH" approach. Any comments on this ?

3. With the looming Economic Crisis..the "water pumps" of the Sants and their deras are going to be working overtime....as more and more financially troubled "sikhs" abandon the AApan Hathin  aappnna....aapeh kaaj swareah of Gurbani to crawl to the sants for miracles..and lose even more of what they have to these charlatans and snake oil merchants of misery. One can lead a "sikh" to the Amrit of Gurbani...BUT one cannot force him/her to DRINK it. ( adapted from the horse and water analogy ):happy:


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## spnadmin (Feb 28, 2009)

Gyani ji

Please forgive my ignorance if anything I say is naive or ridiculous. I understand that we can think of the progression of the jyot instead of the individual by speaking of Nanak I through Nanak X. However the numbers in the Granth Sahib raags are attached to the mehls, mehaala, mhlw not the Nanak.

There may be technical reason for this that has to do with Indian musicology. I don't know. But I have heard kathas when the giani would say "Guruji is speaking in the house of Guru Amar Das." So you would know you were in the mehl 3. This makes it seem much cozier and personal than a prison would be. A part of Gurbani is enclosed within the house of a particular Guru. That Guru is speaking at that point in Guruji. 

And then Guru Arjan ji set it up so that you can progress from house to house. You hear the 1rst Guru, then the 2nd Guru, and so forth. The progression from house to house within the total structure of the Granth Sahib ji then reminds you that the light passes from one house to the next house, by and from one Guru to the next Guru.

That is how I always think of it. Let me know if it makes any sense.


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## Harpreet_Singh_ (Feb 28, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Guru Nanak says in Japji," Sabh gunh terei , mein nahin koe, vin gun kitei BHAGAT nanh hoi".
> 
> Hohnah is the result of the continues actions of goodness. The important thing to notice that if Bhagat were a title then Guru Nanak would have used the word," BANEI". Which means doing one gunh in life gives one's the title of a Bhagat.


Thats a very good way of looking at it. Japji sahib will keep amazing me. In so few words, Guru Nanak Dev Ji imparts Brahmgian.


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## das (Mar 1, 2009)

And True Sants , Brahmagyani's , Sadhus , Vaishnav  do exist  . The writers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib were Brahmagyani's , Sants  ,Sadhus . 

Though it's true that in Kalyug it's hard to find a true sant , brahmagyani .  Sant Ishar Singh ji , Sant Babe Nand Singh ji ,  Shiridi Sai Baba and many more were the true sants . Here We're talking like Jahangir. 

This is what Emperor Jahangir wrote in his diary called the Tuzk-e-Jahangiri, which translates to "Memoirs of Jahangir"


“     In Goindwal, which is on the river Biyãh (Beas), there was a Hindu named Arjan, in the garments of sainthood and sanctity, so much so that he had captured many of the simple-hearted of the Hindus, and even of the ignorant and foolish followers of Islam, by his ways and manners, and they had loudly sounded the drum of his holiness. They called him Guru, and from all sides stupid people crowded to worship and manifest complete faith in him. For three or four generations (of spiritual successors) they had kept this shop warm. Many times it occurred to me to put a stop to this vain affair or to bring him into the assembly of the people of Islam.

At last when Khusrau passed along this road this insignificant fellow proposed to wait upon him. Khusrau happened to halt at the place where he was, and he came out and did homage to him. He behaved to Khusrau in certain special ways, and made on his forehead a finger-mark in saffron, which the Indians (Hinduwän) call qashqa, (Tilak) and is considered propitious. When this came to my ears and I clearly understood his folly, I ordered them to produce him and handed over his houses, dwelling-places, and children to Murtaza Khan, and having confiscated his property commanded that he should be put to death."
    „

—Jahangir, Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
[From Guru Arjan Dev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ]

So please don't do Nindya .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 1, 2009)

Harpreet_Singh_ said:


> Thats a very good way of looking at it. Japji sahib will keep amazing me. In so few words, Guru Nanak Dev Ji imparts Brahmgian.



That "Microcosm"....THATS why Japji Sahib is at the very beginning of SGGS and this SHAHKAAR..is the nichorr of SGGS. Nichorr means Essence.

The entire Nichorr of Gurmat is in the MoolMantr.....further expanded in Japji Sahib...and then of course the remaining pages of the SGGS.

That is also why the Japji Sahib is part of Daily Nitnem from the days of Guru nanak.
Daily Recitation of Japji Sahib brought many people into Sikhi....Bhai Lehna Ji and Bhai Amardass Ji were initially attracted by Japji Sahib being recited and they later went on to become GURUS in their own right as Guru Angad Ji and Guru Amardass Ji.
That is the power of the Gurbani in Japji Sahib..It can change lives..transform lives..Dont Miss the reading with Vichaar....

Here is a "joke" about Nichorr.
The Persian Emperor once asked the best academicians of his kingdom to write a 
"History of the World". So about 2o of those guys spent 25 years and came back with baout 25 HUGE Volumes...One LOOk and the King yelled..Whos got time to read all this...Go back and write a nichor. So 10 years later the wise men came back with just ONE Volume...the King yelled again..Didnt you guys GET IT..I want a Nichorr of World History...So the very next day the Chief Historian came back with a single paper. Yes read out the Nichor of World History to me....on the paper was just one line...
"World History is many kings like your highness came to this world and departed."


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 1, 2009)

das said:


> And True Sants , Brahmagyani's , Sadhus , Vaishnav  do exist  . The writers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib were Brahmagyani's , Sants  ,Sadhus .
> 
> Though it's true that in Kalyug it's hard to find a true sant , brahmagyani .  Sant Ishar Singh ji , Sant Babe Nand Singh ji ,  Shiridi Sai Baba and many more were the true sants . Here We're talking like Jahangir.
> 
> ...



Thats NOT "nindiya"....its the viewpoint of the Mughal King..who martyred Guru Arjun JI on the Hot Plate. Aurengzeb had the same viewpoint and he martyred Guru Teg bahdur Ji in Delhi....and fought Wars with Guru Gobind Singh JI.
Many such "viewpoints" still exist today - especially on Muslim Forums and in books written by Muslims.

Guru Nanak Ji writes....Raajeh SHEEHN..Mukaddam KUTTEH...about the Kings, the Rulers, the So called RELIGIOUS LEADERS, the HOLY MEN, the Kazis, the Brahmins etc who LOOTED the common Man through their wily ways.   Would you call those words "Nindiya" ??? All those so called "Sants in their Huge Deras" filled with LOOTED WEALTH of misguided men and women, riding in posh limos, driven around with AK47 totting guards, never even acknowldeging the "sangat"..are the sheehn mukaddam kuttehs described in Asa Ki Vaar. The Sirseh wala, the Bhaniara walah, the Beas walah, the Pehova walah,.....etc etc etc..just TOO MANY to count...as there are reportedly MORE DERAS than VILLAGES in Punjab today....YET PUNJAB is sinking in Sherab, drugs, laziness and uneducation....TRUTH is difficult to digest - making claims of 50,000 nu amrit chhakata and 250,000 nu amritdharee bannata are easy....where are all these millions of amritdharees ?? imho just recycling numbers.
Guru Nanak JI says..TRUTHFUL LIVING and TRUTH are FOREMOST. TRUTH is never NINDIYA.


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## das (Mar 1, 2009)

That's why its mentioned that its hard to find a true sant in kalyug but that doesn't mean that they don't exist . So one shouldn't weigh everyone on the same scale. And we can't compare ourselves with Guru Nanak Dev Ji . We know about the story when Guru Nanak Dev Ji spent all money  ,given by his father , to provide food to Sant , Sadhus .... Even Sant Namdev ji got enlightenment after learning the final lesson from a Sant.

This Sant pratha is not new in India and it's present in all the religions , only the names are different.  And this is also true in history that Saint / Sant like Jesus and many other were not properly understood by most of the people while they were still in the human form . 
I am not opposing that its hard to find a true Sant but it isn't good to see all with the same eye . 

Bhai Re Gur Bin Gyan Na Hoye
Pucho Brhamey Nardey [*Narad Rishi*]
*Ved Vyas* Koye
*Satgur* Pura *Je* miley
Payiye ratan vichar
man dije gur apne
payie sarab pyar


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Guru Govind dono khade [/FONT][/FONT]
*My guru and God are in front of me*
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]   Kounu lagan paay [/FONT][/FONT]
*To whom do I bow down and touch feet?*
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]   Balihaari guru apane[/FONT][/FONT]
*I give my life to my guru*
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Jin Govind diyo dikhaay [/FONT][/FONT]
* It's he who showed me God.

*[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Definately Our Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib but this doesn't mean that others who follow some math , dera , .... sect are doing wrong . Even in recent past you may note that people like Swami Vivekananda , Swami Yogananda , Laheri Mahasaya ... got enlightenment through an able guru .

Any establishment , organization , religious place , person , Granth ,  Ved , Bible which can show the right way to vaheguru/ram/hari should be respected . Yes the path exists within us through Mooldhar to Sahasrara  [dasam dwar] but we definitely need a guide to pave our inner way and in the beginning that guide has to someone from outside world cuz we are not that able to see the inner guru yet . 
Once the way is paved and we see our true inner adi guru , and a stage is reached about which Gurbani mentions :-

Harijan Hari Antar Nahi Nanak Saachi Maan
*There's no difference between god's people & god himself.
*
And Upnishad's say it beautifully

[/FONT]*Those who see all creatures within themselves
And themselves in all creatures know no fear.
Those who see all creatures in themselves
And themselves in all creatures know no grief.
How can the multiplicity of life
Delude the one who sees its unity?

*[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT]


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## spnadmin (Mar 1, 2009)

"World History is many kings like your highness came to this world and departed."


:yes::happy:


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## Harpreet_Singh_ (Mar 1, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> That is the power of the Gurbani in Japji Sahib..It can change lives..transform lives..Dont Miss the reading with Vichaar....


Agreed. Giani Thakur Singh's Katha is excellent.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 2, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Tejwant Singh Jio,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> You wrote:...The proof is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where they introduced themselves as *NUMBERS.
> ...



Gyani Ji,

Guru fateh.

Yes, it is a number game but I disagree with the analogy of your student about the numbers on prisoners. Those numbers are given to them. In some countries, numbers show the kind of  crimes they have committed or how long their rap sheets are. Prisons repress and suppress  which the society calls it "rehabilitation". And to prove they are successful in that they are building more and more prisons around the world to accommodate the numbered prisoners. The state of California have to free 50,000 numbers prisoners due to lack of funds. Nice rehabilitation it seems.

Jews were given the numbers by Hitler. There was a play called Bent ( which means gay in the slang language) that I watched in London long time ago,in which it showed that the gay Jews had a different insignia or a number.

Sikhi teaches us to be free and freedom can only be attained through love, motivation and inspiration which comes through the tools of Gurbani not by repression,suppression and fear laced with threats of Hell and lake of fire like in other dogmatic religions. Caste system is also a number society.

Our Gurus chose the numbers because Sikhi is all about the message Not about the messenger. Perhaps that is the reason we do not applaud in the Gurdwaras unlike in other religious gathering and places because the message needs no applause whereas the messenger lives for them.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Your students are lucky to have you as their teacher.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 2, 2009)

Tejwant Ji, Gurfateh.

THANK YOU JI.
( and we are lucky to have SPN )


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 2, 2009)

> VaheguruSeekr: Perhaps that is the reason we do not applaud in the Gurdwaras unlike in other religious gathering and places because the message needs no applause whereas the messenger lives for them.


We "applaud" by saying fateh or jaikara. It has to do with cultural norms.



aad0002 said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> Please forgive my ignorance if anything I say is naive or ridiculous. I understand that we can think of the progression of the jyot instead of the individual by speaking of Nanak I through Nanak X. However the numbers in the Granth Sahib raags are attached to the mehls, mehaala, mhlw not the Nanak.
> 
> ...


Actually, that number theory makes sense. They could have simply called themselves by their names but chose to use numbers to deindividualize themselves.
Individualization is found mostly in western culture. In eastern culture it would be disrespect. So it would show humility to give yourself a number. It would also show humility annd deindividualization to write under the name Nanak.

Aad ji x 10^99, Mehl *1* is Guru Nanak, Mehl *2* is Guru Angad, etc... So they ARE using numbers to identify themselves. Notice its not Mehl Guru Nanak, Mehl Angad, etc. Its not Angad's house, its House # 2.


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## spnadmin (Mar 2, 2009)

Bhagat ji

What is Aad ji x 10^99?


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