# Dalit Sikhs In India



## Archived_Member1 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



Sikh80 said:


> :shy:TEARS OF A DALIT SIKH
> Indian Christianity, all its institutions and churches are totally captured by Syrian Christians who claim Brahmin origin. Christianity has served Brahmins with high level education system, medical care.
> 
> What then is the use of such conversions? I am a Sikh but I don't like to be a member of this caste-based Sikh society though I like Sikh philosophy. So what should I do? Where should I go? I found Budhism as my original Dharma but the Budhists don't like me because I am a Sikh. But Sikhs also don't like me because I am a "low caste" Sikh. Muslims and Christians also don't like me. I am in a terrible fix.
> ...





i wish people could separate punjabi culture from sikhism...

interestingly, i see many so-called "low caste" sikhs who are more proud of their caste, or at least talk about it more, than so called "upper caste" sikhs.


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

But we do not hear much about this here. May be there are castes but that may be to get some benefit in getting some jobs reserved for these types Of caste. I have also not seen sikhs as vendors or doing some thing that may be below dignity. Sikhs are well placed and we don't hear often about the castes. 

Yes, there is one job i.e carpentry that is in some parts monopolised by sikhs.
sorry I have to correct, I am poor in english


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



Sikh80 said:


> But we do not hear much about this here. May be their are castes but that may be to get some benefit in getting some jobs reserved for these types Of caste. I have also not seen sikhs as vendors or doing some thing that may be dignity. Sikhs are well placed and we don't here often about the castes. Yes, there is one job i.e carpentry that is in some parts monopolised by sikhs.




from my limited observation, i think the caste system is more of a problem for sikhs in the UK than anywhere else in the world.

and i have no idea why this is.

they have seperate gurdwaras for ravidasia (chamar), ramgharia, etc...  they're strict about caste marriage and relationships...  

but i guess british culture is also very classist, so maybe it makes some sort of sense...


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

There used to be separate Gurudwaras here as well.I would be talking Of 60/70's but with passage of time things are normalising. Atleast I have not seen any new Gurudwara being constructed for a particular caste of sikhs.
What is the time out there.?It is about 10p.m. here.
I can see kds ji online.He is the right man for this kind of info. You may kindly take his advice.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

i'm 11.5 hours behind you (central US).  

we don't see caste gurdwaras here, though sometimes gurdwara splits coincide with "caste" lines (jatt/khatri), they aren't done intentionally.  i think that's just a matter of people being more comfortable with people they can relate to.


----------



## kds1980 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



> But, believe me, as a Sikh I love Islam and Christianity for their egalitarian principles



Just look at the condition of pakistan and middle east and then comment about islam


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 10, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

STATEMENT OF OBJECTS AND REASONS


Paragraph 3 of the Constitution (*Scheduled* Castes) Order, 1950 stipulates that noperson who professes a religion different from the Hindu, the *Sikh* or the Buddhist religion
shall be deemed to be a member of a *Scheduled**Caste*. At the time the *Scheduled* Castes(Order), 1950 was brought into operation, it was presumed that *caste* discrimination is prevalent in the Hindu religion only. Later on, the *Sikh* and the Buddhist religion were also added in paragraph 3 of the aforesaid Order.The persons belonging to the *Scheduled* Castes were afforded with the benefits of the reservation in the legislatures and in jobs under the State with a specific purpose to put anend to *caste* discrimination and to bring these oppressed persons into the mainstream of thesociety. However, their lot did not improve much even after they were provided with certain facilities by the State. In their attempt to escape from the scourge of *caste* system and social oppression, the persons belonging to *Scheduled* Castes started converting to other faiths in the hope that they will not have to face *caste* discrimination anymore once they embraced other religion. However, the situation did not improve much even after their conversion toother faiths as these people were not accepted well and continued to be treated as dalits by the people in their new fold. After conversion to new faith these people lost the status of
*Scheduled**Caste* in the eyes of law and were deprived of the benefits of reservation provided in jobs under the State. These persons are still victims of the *caste* discrimination and social oppression even when they have converted to new faith.Therefore, it is unfair and unjust to ignore the reality and to plead that *caste *discrimination prevails in Hindu religion only. Realizing and accepting the reality, it is high time to take realistic step by way of amending the Constitution (*Scheduled* Castes) Order, 1950 in order to extend the benefits of reservations to the persons who originally belong to the *Scheduled**Caste* and have converted to a faith other than the Hindu, the *Sikh* or the
Buddhist religion. It is also equally important to uphold the spirit of secularism and equality engrained in our Constitution.


*The Bill seeks to achieve the above objective.*

THE CONSTITUTION (*SCHEDULED* CASTES) ORDER
(AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006
*"Provided that the forthe purposes of this order, a memberof the **Scheduled **Caste** who has converted from the Hindu, **Sikh** or Buddhist religion to any other*
*religion shall also be deemed to be belonging to the **Scheduled**Caste** to which he**belonged before such conversion."*



******************************************************************
On Goggling about scheduled castes in Sikhs ,Came across some interesting statistics that about 30 percent of the sikhs in Punjab can be called as Dalits or scheduled castes and most Of them are in Rural areas. Sharing it with members. I do not know if the bill could sail through and became a statute. May be readers know.


----------



## dalsingh (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



jasleen_kaur said:


> i'm 11.5 hours behind you (central US).
> 
> we don't see caste gurdwaras here, though sometimes gurdwara splits coincide with "caste" lines (jatt/khatri), they aren't done intentionally.  i think that's just a matter of people being more comfortable with people they can relate to.



You may not feel it is of any major significance but there are lots of people (especially amongst the youth) that feels that the caste issue is one of the most divisive issues in the UK Sikh community. Maybe a factor is that the immigration pattern here has caused a numerical spread of "different castes" that is different to Panjab.

Also you seem to be playing down the incidence of caste discrimination which may well be the root cause of the different Gurdwaras you mention. The issue was serious enough for our Gurus to make a big deal out it in many ways.


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

Would there be any legislation for the dalit/backward sikhs etc., I hope there is a none ,but trying to get in  a formal  way .


----------



## Amarpal (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

Dear Member,

This again is the way of those who want to keep Sikhs divided. We have different suffixes for Sikhs from different back ground. It is a sociological issue. Govt. can do very little in it. It can only help create a leagal environment for their advancement. It is they who have to work for it and we as Sikhs should encourage them in doing so.Let  Goverment do what what it thinks proper for the have nots in the state/country. We as Sikh must work in a manner so that all are in Chaddian Kala (blissful alround ascendency) and the so called prefix Dalit gets dissloved and they just be seen as followerd of the Sikh religion

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



dalsingh said:


> You may not feel it is of any major significance but there are lots of people (especially amongst the youth) that feels that the caste issue is one of the most divisive issues in the UK Sikh community. Maybe a factor is that the immigration pattern here has caused a numerical spread of "different castes" that is different to Panjab.
> 
> Also you seem to be playing down the incidence of caste discrimination which may well be the root cause of the different Gurdwaras you mention. The issue was serious enough for our Gurus to make a big deal out it in many ways.





like i said in an earlier post, caste discrimination seems to be a huge issue in the UK, but i simply don't see as much of it here in the US.  perhaps it's just not as overt...  but i know lots of mixed "caste" couples here, so i think the younger generation is leaving these old ideas behind.  at least in the US.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



Sikh80 said:


> Would there be any legislation for the dalit/backward sikhs etc., I hope there is a none ,but trying to get in a formal way .


dalit/backward sikhs??? what the heck is that??


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



BhagatSingh said:


> dalit/backward sikhs??? what the heck is that??


 
Sikhs who are below the poverty line and are socially backward would be treated as dalit sikhs.It is a term that is borrowed from Hindus /indian politics.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



Sikh80 said:


> Sikhs who are below the poverty line and are socially backward would be treated as dalit sikhs.It is a term that is borrowed from Hindus /indian politics.


ah I see.


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

The uphill task is as to how to take them out in the mainstraim. They are almost insulated from the society and remain in the rural areas. The condition is not very good and not much data is available to support any claim on the estimates of them. 
Some revolutionist is required to do some good for these people. Some of them change religion for the sake of some lump-sum payment and/or guaranteed job. This is another part of the problem.


----------



## Amarpal (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*

Dear Sikh80 Ji,

I am of the opinion that we do not have to wait for some one to complete the social agenda of khalsa Pant. Each good meaning Sikh should work to help at least help one the less fortunate family to rise. 
Let us help the family of our maid servant, or the person who come for cleaning or ......Collectively, it will become a great effort. It need not be an individual who follows Sikh religion, religion is that persons personal affair, we are serving whom 'The Sat' has created.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: Dalit Sikhs in Indai:Is it So*



Sikh80 said:


> The uphill task is as to how to take them out in the mainstraim. They are almost insulated from the society and remain in the rural areas. The condition is not very good and not much data is available to support any claim on the estimates of them.
> Some revolutionist is required to do some good for these people. Some of them change religion for the sake of some lump-sum payment and/or guaranteed job. This is another part of the problem.



they're not only in the rural areas...  ever been to a major indian city?  you'll see "dalits" by the millions.   GK II neighborhood in south Delhi has a private school funded by sikhs that is for the children of servants.  it gives them a chance to get a better education so they do not have to follow in their parents line of work.  what we need is more schools like this, all over india.  as long as people are not getting the education they need, they cannot rise.  

as amarpal veer ji said, i'd recommend sponsoring a family...  how much can it cost to cover school fees to a moderate school for a poor child?  especially for those of us living in the west, i'm sure we can afford it.  

the problem, as always, is how to organize our grand ideas.   (sorry for the smiley, i was smiling at this statement because getting organized is such a major hurdle for anything that doesn't obviously and directly benefit the donor)


----------



## Sikh80 (Jan 12, 2008)

If there is intention one can usually find the means to put the intention into practice. You can find out someone to do the job for you in India.I am sure you would find some graceful persons.
Congrats! for thinking on this line. Yes, we do require many people like you.It is not the affordability it is the intention that matters. It is to add one more pearl Of spirituality in oneself though one need not act on account Of this.Hope you find the helper soon. I normally do not use smilie
best Of luck


----------

