# Should Rehatanams Be Amended With Changing Times



## Neutral Singh (Jul 13, 2004)

Please Discuss.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 14, 2004)

[Remember I'm not Sikh]

Rehatnamas, to my knowledge were not written by any of the Gurus, so why should Sikhs follow them? Rehatnamas are based on social and moral laws, I don't even think rehatnamas should exist. Sikhs should take Guruji as their guide and no other scripture as authority.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher

P.S. Please forgive me and correct me if I have gotten anything wrong, my knowledge on rehatnamas [esp. its origin] is very limited.


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## The lion king (Jul 15, 2004)

Hey, 
My knowledge on rehatnamas is also very limited. The best source regarding this issue is you should read the book on Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa Discipline by Dalip Singh for more clarification.
It also clears up the misconception about the zafernama and Fatehnama. 
Did have a look at amazon.com(co.uk) and found few copies. Will be ordering mine so will let u know as soon.....


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 15, 2004)

*Rehatnaamas collecting dust.*

Rehatnaamas are the moral codes by which we conduct ourselves by, in any society we live in, on this little speck of sand in IK ONG KAAR'S realm called the Earth. 

Rehatnaamas are supposed to be based on the concept of MIRI - PIRI. MIRI meaning, coping with our daily hurdles of making a living,educating our kids and any other material possessions we may want to have, what Abraham Maslow  calls the must needs in order to grow spiritually (cultivate PIRI) in his famous 'the Maslow Triangle'. Articles - Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

MIRI-PIRI was named as such by Guru Hargobind Sahib, however the concept was started by Guru Nanak in his 3 step formula.

1. Naam Japnah
2. Kirat Karni
3. Vand kei Chaknah

PIRI is the spiritual side, the foundation of MIRI. Sans PIRI, MIRI becomes nothing but walloping in the grime of MAYA.

As the laws of the land change with time, so should the laws of MIRI meaning Rehatnaamas, so they are at par with our everyday MIRI PIRI life. If they are not moulded to our current requirements, then Rehatnaamas become stumbling blocks rather than stepping stones.

A Sikh, the follower of this universal faith who is living in all parts of the world knows very well what adapting to different cultures mean. A Sikh can practice her/his Kirat anytime, anywhere ( thanks for not having SABBATH, the day God rests according to some faiths). A Sikh adopts the way of MIRI according to the enviorment he/she has become the product of.

One more important point I would like to re-emphacise is that Sikhi is IDEA based. Gurmat Ideas can not be stagnant, they are dynamic. The proof of this is that it took about 250 years, from Guru Nanak to Guru Granth Sahib with the sacrifices of Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Tegh Bahadur and the four sahibzadas, to defend the Sikh Ideology of universal love and understanding.

If Rehatnaamas do not reflect the expanse of ideas with time then they become still waters.

And as they say, ' Still waters breed mosquitoes whereas gushing water mould boulders'.

Peace and Love

Tejwant


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## Arvind (Jul 15, 2004)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> [Remember I'm not Sikh]
> 
> Rehatnamas, to my knowledge were not written by any of the Gurus, so why should Sikhs follow them?



Rehatnamas were enforced by Guru, and He asked sikhs to follow those rules i.e. rehats. About changing rehatnamas as per changing times, I dont agree with that, as then we say ourselves being smarter than Guru. Perhaps I am a rigid one! but definitely not a blind faither.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 15, 2004)

> Rehatnamas were enforced by Guru, and He asked sikhs to follow those rules i.e. rehats. About changing rehatnamas as per changing times, I dont agree with that, as then we say ourselves being smarter than Guru. Perhaps I am a rigid one! but definitely not a blind faither.


 
ThinkingOne Ji,

Guru Fateh.

A Sikh is a seeker, a learner, a student, a proactive but not a passive Soormah. 

Hence rather than enforcement a sikh needs encouragement to do always right. Our Gurus did not enforce on us to read GURBANI. They rather instilled in us the desire to make GURBANI the foundation block of our lives.

As someone said,'the sole duty of a Teacher (Guru) is to create the desire and motivation in  students to seek.'

The above fits like a glove in Sikh's relationship with  The Guru.

 Enforcement is by force. It is an impostion. 

Love for IK ONG KAAR will always be through internal manifestation never by external imposition.

The only REHATNAAMA- THE SIKH WAY OF LIFE- our Gurus gave us directly  lies in GURU SHABAD of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Tejwant


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## Critical Singh (Jul 16, 2004)

VaheguruSeekr said:
			
		

> ThinkingOne Ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Although it is highly unlikely that any changes can be done into the rehat maryada in the near future, but still what changes that you would like to see be implemented according to your understanding of Sikhism?

Please continue.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 16, 2004)

> Although it is highly unlikely that any changes can be done into the rehat maryada in the near future, but still what changes that you would like to see be implemented according to your understanding of Sikhism?
> 
> Please continue.


Critical Singh ji,

Guru Fateh,

I am neither a scholar, nor a historian and do not intend to be either. I am just a seeker like all of us here who has been given the honor to think aloud with the Sadh Sangat.

I will leave the changes in the hands of the learned. I personally think that we should have a universal THINK TANK made of GOD LOVERS that are well educated and have a deep knowledge of Sikhi. This THINK TANK should be in sync with SGPC so that we can create an atmosphere of harmony with one goal in mind, that is to learn about ourselves through GURBANI.

One never knows, we may find some in this forum.

Peace & Love

Tejwant Singh


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## Arvind (Jul 16, 2004)

Thanks for your guidance VaheguruSeekr  ji.
The only REHATNAAMA- THE SIKH WAY OF LIFE- our Gurus gave us directly lies in GURU SHABAD of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI. Could you please explain what is Guru Shabad. I hear this word so often nowadays.

Further, About changes in rehatnama:
1. Originally, there are 5 Ks. Kirpan is gone with reduced form of a few inches.
2. I see new Amritdharis with a neck thread with symbolic forms of Kangha, Kirpan, Khanda. Kesh are definitely kept, and Kachcha is also in its place, and Karra may be a golden one. Going by this neck thread logic, or symbolic form, I am scared to see a day, when neck thread also contains bunch of kesh in a capsule, or a picture of Kachcha in that. I might appear an arrogant one, but with all due respect to Khalsa, my only concern is reduction of 5 Ks into symbolic forms, thats why I am writing these things.
Due to this, modification of rehatnama is something not digestable to me, as these are modifications by human. And if u people go with my logic proposed, u may ask me - will u be riding a horse to an office to program for neural networks. I know this is an awkward. Change is certainly required, but in what way, not in values at least. Rehatnama is something whose update is not something which gels my thoughts properly. 

Sangat, please enlighten this confused one with ur kind words.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 16, 2004)

GURU SHABAD is the fuel that horsepowers a Sikh to live under the umbrella of GURMAT.

Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## Arvind (Jul 16, 2004)

I am not good at deciphering knowledgable words. Please reply in layman's language for the benefit of mine. 

Does Guru Shabad mean reciting of Gurubani? Next level cud be to grasp the delicacies of those words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Further, of course to implement them in our own lives.

Thanks much.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 16, 2004)

ThinkingONE ji,

Guru Fateh.

I admire your inquisitive quest to seek. .

What I mean by that  is GURU SHABAD is the essence of Rehat. Through GURU SHABAD vichaar we find the building blocks of our Sikhi.

I would also urge you to check the following thread.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/gurmat-and-dhamma-a-study-by-dr-kanwar-ranvir-singh.67/

Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## Arvind (Jul 16, 2004)

Dear Tejwant ji,
Thanks for the link. This was a good one to read and get better perspective. I got stuck up at Naam Japnah, which talks abt it not being a lip service. I need more pondering on that myself.
So Guru Shabad means - follow Rehat, and understand Rehat? Is that so?
Regards.


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## Gurpreet Kaur (Jul 17, 2004)

GurFateh Jio!

I dont think its possible to ammend Rehitnaama's. They are essentially Hukams of the Guru, so we can't even imagine thinking of changing Bani, let alone Rehitnaamey. Also, we dont have much unity amongst ourselves, so sadly the ammendments may not mean much to most people of different Jatha's.


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## freespirit (Jul 17, 2004)

> GurFateh Jio!
> 
> I dont think its possible to ammend Rehitnaama's. They are essentially Hukams of the Guru, so we can't even imagine thinking of changing Bani, let alone Rehitnaamey. Also, we dont have much unity amongst ourselves, so sadly the ammendments may not mean much to most people of different Jatha's.



Saihajleen Kaur ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am confused by your response. It seems the first part contradicts the second one. Can you please elaborate what you mean?

Thanx

Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 17, 2004)

I apologise. I had no idea Jaskeerat (freespirit) had logged on my computer.

Sorry about that.

Tejwant

Quote:
GurFateh Jio!

I dont think its possible to ammend Rehitnaama's. They are essentially Hukams of the Guru, so we can't even imagine thinking of changing Bani, let alone Rehitnaamey. Also, we dont have much unity amongst ourselves, so sadly the ammendments may not mean much to most people of different Jatha's. 

Saihajleen Kaur ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am confused by your response. It seems the first part contradicts the second one. Can you please elaborate what you mean?

Thanx

Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## Gurpreet Kaur (Jul 18, 2004)

GurFateh Jio

I just think there could be two reasons for not changing them. Personally, I dont believe they should be changed as they are universal guidelines for all Sikhs, of any generation. Sikhi is so advanced that it is not necessary to change it to suit changing times. In fact, some of what science is discovering with time has already been covered by our Guru's.

Second reason as to why it may not be possible for the changes to work is that we have so little unity amongst us. If there were changes, everyone would have their own opinions and different Jatha's might not even accept them. Sorry for confusing you before, hope you're not even more confused now, lol. If you are, just ignore me !

Fateh Ji


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 18, 2004)

Saihajleen Kaur said:
			
		

> Second reason as to why it may not be possible for the changes to work is that we have so little unity amongst us. If there were changes, everyone would have their own opinions and different Jatha's might not even accept them. Sorry for confusing you before, hope you're not even more confused now, lol. If you are, just ignore me !


Yes, but people already have different opinions on them now, which means if they aren't working for ALL Sikhs now, will they ever work? NO.
Guruji is universal - it is poetic and this shows its greatness and allows people to find their own guidelines from Guruji. Rehatnama is someones philosophy on Guruji put in a book of hardcore solid rules. There are many interpretations and views on Guruji and rehatnamas are just ONE.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## Gurpreet Kaur (Jul 18, 2004)

You're right Caramel. I agree with you.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 18, 2004)

...



			
				Saihajleen Kaur said:
			
		

> Sikhi is so advanced ...


Also, Sikhi is so advanced, why is this scripture even needed?

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## Arvind (Jul 20, 2004)

Scriptures exist to
1. bring back the lost ones to the right path 
2. initiate the new entrants
3. continue guiding the existing human


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## etinder (Aug 3, 2004)

dear brother caramel

Sikhi is advanced but sikhs are not, its like Stephen hawkins said once that with in 20 years we would uncover all that is to know about Physics, but once we have reached that stage do you think need of the text books or books on physics would be over?
similarly for all of us who are notyet enlightened needs directions all the time


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## Amarpal (Aug 13, 2004)

Dear Members,This discussion was very interesting. I can not hold myself from contributing to it.

My current position is:

(i) Rehatnama is needed for all those who are really living in material world and want to cross over to spiritual world.

'Karta Purakh' is an abstract entity; not every one can grasp it. Yet, we have to give the opportunity for all to grow. We in Khalsa Panth have to carry people from where they are.There are large number of people who are unable to decide for themselves; they prefer to be told. These people need detailed guideline to enter into domain of 'Karta Purakh'.

(ii) Part of Rehatnama should be fixed and other part dynamic.

The fixed part should be the one linked to the essence of the teachings of Gurbani and the element that create synergy within the Panth.

The dynamic part should be linked to the interface of the spiritual living with the worldly living. The dynamic part must change as the society evolves without adversely affecting the fixed part.

(iii) Rehatnama has no meaning to those who are physically living in material world but infact they have crossed over and mentally living in the spiritual  world.

I do not have to elaborate on this point. Siri Guru Granth Sahib is very clear on it. I attach a sentence for Japji Sahib on this point.

mannai mag na chalai panth. 

Which for me means that the intinsically spiritual individuals do not follow the rituals of the Panth. 
 

With love and respect for all

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 13, 2004)

Amarpal ji... could you redefine the word "intinsically" to clear the meanings...

Regards


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 13, 2004)

*Rehatnamas can and have been changed*

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

The Rehatnamas are essentially "documents" penned by writers close to Guru Ji and NOT personally written by Guru Ji or signed by Guru Ji.
The authors wrote "codes of conduct" as they understood them...that is why there are many contradictions among the various rehatnamas.
Rehatnamas are NOT GURBANI. Hence they can be changed, amended by the Collective GURU KHALSA PANTH.
This process was once done in the 1930's when the SIKH REHAT MARYADA was formulated by WORLD WIDE discussion/participation of the Guru Khlasa panth...and the Draft of this SRM was Published by the Akal Takhat/SGPC. This Draft is being used in most Gurdwaras and Khalsa Schools throuh out the world. Unfortunately some "memebers" of the Drafting Committee left the discussions after they proved unable to convince the others of their personal views - these views were on MEAT eating and Raagmala. The dissenting Group wanted to BAN ALL MEAT - and Ban the reading of Raagmala as "not Gurbani". The Drafting Commitee decided to 1. make Reading Raagmala elective - those who want to read it can do so and those who dont want can stop the Bhog at MUNDAWANI. On the MEAT question it was decided that Sikhism /GURMATT doesnt BAN meat..ONLY KUTTHA which is halal Meat that is SACRIFICIAL meat ( this includes sacrificial meat of Hindu Devis/devtas/mandirs as well as the more common Muslim halal.)
This SRM was moulded from all the Rehatnamas prevalent in the times...and those that needed change were discarded or amended..
The important thing to remeber is that ONLY Dhur Ki bani "GURBANI" inside the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE is not subject to any changes/amendments/edition. Not even the Guru Khalsa Panth which co-shares GURGADHI with Guru Granth sahib jee can change the Gurbani. This si because GURBANI is timeless ....as Akal purakh from whence it came _ Dhur Ki bani ayee jin saglee chint mitayee...Bani Guru , GURU hai Bani.
Thus any changes in the rehatnmas must be consistent with GURBANI - Gurbani dee KASWATTI te. There can be no single code of conduct that CONTRADICTS what gurbani says.

Jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 14, 2004)

The lion king said:
			
		

> Hey,
> My knowledge on rehatnamas is also very limited. The best source regarding this issue is you should read the book on Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa Discipline by Dalip Singh for more clarification.
> It also clears up the misconception about the zafernama and Fatehnama.
> Did have a look at amazon.com(co.uk) and found few copies. Will be ordering mine so will let u know as soon.....


Dalip Singh is known for REJECTING the GURUSHIP of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE. He Dosent beleive GURU Granth sahib jee is GURU of the Guru Khalsa Panth. He beleives that both granths - dasam as well as AAd granth are equal and just books. This is not the view of most Sikhs who firmly beleive Guru Gobind Singh Ji bestowed GURGADHI to Guru Granth sahib jee in 1708.
And NO SIKH can equate any other book or granth ( even dasam granth) to the level of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE. The Sikh rehat maryada states very clearly that NO BOOK or Person may have EQUAL satus to the Parkashman Guru Granth sahib Jee.
Keeping this in mind i would treat all of dalip's books with a pinch of salt.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 14, 2004)

Amarpal said:
			
		

> Dear Members,This discussion was very interesting. I can not hold myself from contributing to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMHO this means: If one follows the MANN.....then one cannot follow the PANTH.  The followers of Mann = MANNMATT..... the followers of PANTH=PANTHMATT (GURMATT)

Guru nanak sahib Jee started the "nirmal panth" later on to become the Guru Khalsa panth.....and if "intrinsically spiritual individuals" DO NOT FOLLOW the rituals of the PANTH...then who are those who do follow the Panth ?? i hope not just ritualistically inclined individuals. Baba banda Singh bahadur was a intrinsically spiritual person....when he met Guru Gobind Singh Ji he became a KHALSA and decided to follow the PANTH ( and thus discarded his manmatt - individual intrinsically spirituality)

With Love to all


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## Amarpal (Aug 16, 2004)

Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee,

The meaning that you have suggested in your post can be one of the possibility. Guru Sahib has devoted 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th Pauri of Japji Sahib to Mannai/mannay.

I have again read these Pauris using the meaning suggested by you, but I am not able to convince my self on the appropriateness of the suggested meaning. For the time being I am keeping your suggestion in mind and may be when I am evolved enough I may change my views.  

With love and respect for all

Amarpal


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## Amarpal (Aug 16, 2004)

Dear Member (sikhphilosophy),

The clarification you have sought I am giving below.

We are all partly spiritual, partly worldly. We are worldly, when we are driven by desires; when this happens the siprituality in us takes a back seat as it is over taken by our worldly desires.

The part of the brain from where these desires sprong, I call Mann. This mann is also the repository of vices viz. lust, greed, envy, anger etc to name a few. When this Mann dictate my actions in this world, then I am worldly. The absence of Mann in my conduct of life makes me totally spiritual; it leads me into a life governed by caring, sharing, love, compassion, self-sufficient, unselfish etc. The individual to whom this spiritual way is her/his nature, I call intrinsically spiritual individual. This individual lives in this world from a totally spiritual base.

Guru Sahib has explained what he meant by the term Mannai/Mannay in 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th Pauri, where I have translated Mannai/Mannay as intrinsically spiritual person in one of my my post on this net).   

With love and respect for all

Amarpal


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## Amarpal (Aug 16, 2004)

I hope I have not killed the nice discussion that was going on before I intruded in it.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 16, 2004)

No, You havn't, Sir


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## Arvind (Aug 16, 2004)

Amarpal said:
			
		

> The part of the brain from where these desires sprong, I call Mann.


Off-topic: Even the need/feeling of getting onto spiritual way is a desire. I desire to always have 'Naam Khumari'. Or perhaps there are some good desires or bad desires. Is that so?

Thanks.


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## Amarpal (Aug 20, 2004)

Dear Member (ThinkingOne Jee),

You are right. Going the spiritual way is also a desire; I agree with you. 

I had not anticipated this question, other wise I would have qualified my statement in my earlier post itself, which I am doing now.

'The worldly desires spring from Maan'. 

Nature has given us organs for sensing and organs for action. They are meant to protect us from unwanted and to continuation of the species. Our excessive indulgence makes us slave of these organs; this is what Maan does; such people are called Maanmukh.

To become spiritual is also a desire. This desire originates from Buddhi i.e. the intellect. It is the natural disposition of we human. That is why Guru Sahib has said 'huee prapat maanukh dehuriya Gobind milan kee aih teri bariya'. This is the natural disposition of we humans. It gets clouded by wordly living, attachments and Ahamkar. 

It is for this reason you will find that individuals with extraordinary intellect may not be very religious but they are highly spiritual.

As you have stated in your post, both are desires, but the source from where they come are different. When Buddhi guides the individual the Maan disappear, the vices get dissolved.

With Love and respect for all

Amarpal


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## Amarpal (Aug 20, 2004)

Dear Member (Neutral Singh Jee).

I have responded to you questions on what I mean by intrinsically. By mistake I had addressed it to our member sikhphilosophy. I hope you have read it.

With love and respect for all

Amarpal


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 15, 2004)

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.

i have just finished reading through six of the most commonly quoted rehatnamas...Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai desa Singh, Bhai daya Singh, Tankhahnama.. and find loads of "time based" and "gender " bias.. Anti-Muslim bias, Pro and anti-Brahmin bias, Blatant Anti-Women Bias..all of which are not found in Gurbani, not in line with Gurbani or the principles of Sikhi/Gurmatt outlined by the Gurus, and not genuine if we look at the Guru's personal lives.

The Anti-Muslim bias is "understandable" as most of the Guru period and after that was fought agaisnt muslim rulers oppression....when in fact most of the really ANTI-GURU forces were the HINDU HILL RAJAS/the GURU's own relatives like Prithya Chand, Chan du, Dhirmalls and Hindu Diwans that pushed the muslim rulers to fight the sikhs..but since most of the writers were "hindu based" /brahmins etc they conveniently "forgot" to record any such bias and vented their anger at the muslims only.

Anti-women bias is also excess baggage from the writers' hindu/brahmin background...when from the very beginning with GURU NANAK JI itself the status of women has been the subject of specially written shabads aimed at stopping this gender bias.
Warmest regards to all

jarnail Singh


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