# Is God A Universal Principle?



## vsgrewal48895 (May 9, 2009)

Dear Saad Ji,

You do not have to be xenophobic. The omnipresent God created the cosmos including the world _but man made the world in to countries and various religions._ Theological God (HaShem) is rather an elusive conception and it becomes difficult in discussing this question, to know what one is discussing? It is an Absolute Principle and It applies to every thing (Sargun) and some thing in terms of itself, which cannot be defined (Nirgun). One must set aside personal prejudices or bias and keep an open mind to understand the Principle. God and spirit are both out side the limitations of time and space. Prejudiced individuals see only what fits those prejudices.

Q. Do you believe in God?

A. It depends what you mean by the term.

One must keep an open mind and be receptive despite what issues arise?

The absolute Principle (God) is not a, thing, sound or vibration, not divisible, not diluted or augmented, has no partner or complement, has no form or qualities as enumerated in Sikh Mool Mantar(First lines of AGGS). Guru Arjan in the mode of Suhi says;
*
deleted single line of Shabad based on forum guidelines. *

Akal Purkh is every where(ਨਿਰੰਤਰ) all the time (Immanent & Transcendent) and forever with out any relation to time and space. One can communicate to the One God through prayer. The wording of the prayer does not matter and can be individualized by the petitioner. It is the sincerity of the prayer, which matters. It is the motive that makes difference between true and false prayer. Only the prayer coming from the depths of the heart is accepted at the door of the Creator.Prayer is the constant yearning to know the Truth and be worthy of it. It is the striving of the mind towards its parent Divinity the Universal Spirit. Outwardly prayer should express it- self in actions by which we strive to manifest, which is best in us. 

Regards.

Virinder
*
Moderator's note: These posts were moved from Introducing Myself as the discussion is off-topic. aad0002*


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## pk70 (May 9, 2009)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

It is an Absolute Principle and It applies to every thing (Sargun) and some thing in terms of itself, which cannot be defined (Nirgun). One must set aside personal prejudices or bias and keep an open mind to understand the Principle. (VSGrewal Ji)
*Respected VSGrewl Ji*
*With all due respect I must state that you would not stop beating your drums to claim God as a principle even after failing badly to answer so many questions raised by many forum members, if you are so sure why don’t you dare to answer the questions I put to you repeatedly on other threads? I asked you those questions after giving you illustration of God by Gurus contrary to yours*
*Or please admit it that its sheer your own Budh Gyan, Please  don’t bring Gurbani into it, *
God and spirit are both out side the limitations of time and space. Prejudiced individuals see only what fits those prejudices.
*Sir now from principle you are coming to spirits, one God and other spirit, how will you define it? I haven’t notice so deleted thought for a while*
*What it has to do with the word “prejudice”, May I ask you, are you prejudiced towards Gurus because Gurus don’t illustrate Him as a principle? Why don’t you be open to understand what they say instead of quoting below one liner (and I shall prove you that Guru goes beyond what you say).

*Q. Do you believe in God?

A. It depends what you mean by the term.
*Why don’t you define your own God by leaving quoting of Gurbani aside that doesn’t support you?
*
One must keep an open mind and be receptive despite what issues arise?
*Open mind to understand your Busdh gyan? Or to understand God through Gurbani!!!*

The absolute Principle (God) is not a, thing, sound or vibration, not divisible, not diluted or augmented, has no partner or complement, has no form or qualities as enumerated in Sikh Mool Mantar(First lines of AGGS). Guru Arjan in the mode of Suhi says;

ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਸਾਰਾ ॥[/FONT] 


_Baran c__ẖ[/FONT]ihan nāhī muk__ẖ[/FONT] na māsārā._ 

Akal Purkh has no color, no sign, no mouth and no beard -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-10 
*Here is the complete Shabad that goes all over about God from formless to with forms; you picked one line to satisfy your own concept of God as per your habit. Obviously it’s your deliberate attempt to mislead people by* *quoting Gurbani, it’s of course a pathetic approach as it has been challenged numerous times without any answer from your side ever. Here is the complete Shabada, prove me  if in this Shabad any slightest reference is given to your  own coined God*
[/FONT]ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਰਾਸਿ ਮੰਡਲੁ ਕੀਨੋ ਆਖਾਰਾ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਸਗਲੋ ਸਾਜਿ ਰਖਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
  Sūhī mėhlā 5.[/FONT]Rās mandal kīno ākẖārā.[/FONT]Saglo sāj rakẖi▫o pāsārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT]
*In Essence: God has made this world as an arena ( to play) all is his created expansion(pause) [/FONT]*
*ਬਹੁਬਿਧਿਰੂਪਰੰਗਆਪਾਰਾ॥ਪੇਖੈਖੁਸੀਭੋਗਨਹੀਹਾਰਾ॥ਸਭਿਰਸਲੈਤਬਸਤਨਿਰਾਰਾ॥੧*॥
  Baho biḏẖ rūp rang āpārā.[/FONT]Pekẖai kẖusī bẖog nahī hārā.[/FONT]Sabẖ ras laiṯ basaṯ nirārā. ||1||[/FONT]
*In Essence: He has made many infinite forms and colors, He beholds all and enjoy never to getting tired of. While enjoying still He remains separate (immaculate.)[/FONT]*
ਬਰਨੁਚਿਹਨੁਨਾਹੀਮੁਖੁਨਮਾਸਾਰਾ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]ਕਹਨੁਨਜਾਈਖੇਲੁਤੁਹਾਰਾ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]ਨਾਨਕਰੇਣਸੰਤਚਰਨਾਰਾ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੨॥੨॥੪੫॥
  Baran cẖihan nāhī mukẖ na māsārā.[/FONT]Kahan na jā▫ī kẖel ṯuhārā.[/FONT]Nānak reṇ sanṯ cẖarnārā. ||2||2||45||[/FONT]
*In Essence: He has no color, sign, mouth or beard, its hard to explain your play Oh God!  Nanak seeks humbly your refuge [/FONT]*
*Tell me where in this Shabad God is described as principle? Can your open- mind  point out God as a principle here? As I stated earlier, it’s all your own coined philosophy about God and has nothing to do with Gurbani. Gurbani doesn’t express God as you do. I am stunned at your deliberate attempt to preach about God contrary to Gurbani<o>: In your quoted  one liner, it is about NIRGUN but in "sabh Ras Lait" Vaak indicates "His being in SARGUN form", then again it is said "His being separate from that". It absolutely not fits into your coined  God as "Principle"*
*By the way, this thread is to welcome people not to serve your own “kind of religion” sermons!!!!*


*With regards*
*G Singh*


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## Tejwant Singh (May 10, 2009)

*Private debate with another forum member has been deleted. aad0002*

To call someone's thoughts *deleted* when one is discussing Gurbani no matter how much one disagrees is uncalled for in my opinion. 

 I wish the Moderators would see that demeaning someone in this manner can not elevate anyone in any spectrum no matter how much one claims to understand Gurbani.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 10, 2009)

Dear All,

This may be my last post. Here is thje sabd to some questions;

The Absolute Principle is TRUTH-which Guru Nanak calls God. Here Guru Angad refers to that Absolute Principle of Truth in Raag Malar;

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ *ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ **॥* ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
_Barahmā bisan mahes __ḏev upā▫i▫ā. Barahme __ḏi__ṯe be__ḏ pūjā lā▫i▫ā. __Ḏas av__ṯārī rām rājā ā▫i▫ā.__ Ḏai__ṯā māre __ḏẖā▫e hukam sabā▫i▫ā. Īs mahesur sev __ṯinĥī an__ṯ na pā▫i▫ā. *Sac*_*ẖī kīma**ṯ pā▫e **ṯak**ẖa**ṯ rac**ẖā▫i▫ā.*_ Ḏunī▫ā __ḏẖan__ḏẖai lā▫e āp c__ẖẖapā▫i▫ā._

Then Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created. Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being. According to Akal Purkh’s Will, they quickly killed all the demons. Shiva serves It, but cannot find Its limits. *Akal Purkh established Its throne on the principles of Truth.*  Setting creation to various tasks, Akal Purkh has concealed It self and Its Primal Ordinance gives direction for righteous action.                                       -----Guru Angad, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1279-19

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (May 10, 2009)

virinderji

AKAA PURAKH THE SAT NAM, WHO IS THE DOER OF EVERYTHING DOES NOT INCARNATE. PLEASE DO NOT SAY HE DOES EVEN IN A SUGGESTIVE WAY. 


thank you,
Antonia


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 10, 2009)

*de⋅lu⋅sion*

                                      

       –noun   1. an act or instance of deluding.     2. the state of being deluded.     3. *a false belief or opinion*.      4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.    

*Origin: * 
1375–1425; late ME < L dēlūsiōn- (s. of dēlūsiō), equiv. to dēlūs(us) (ptp. of dēlūdere; see delude ) + -iōn-  -ion






Related forms:
 de⋅lu⋅sion⋅al, de⋅lu⋅sion⋅ar⋅y, adjective 

 Synonyms:
1. deception. See illusion. 


               Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.     
Cite This Source                      |
             Link To *delusional* 


*de·lu·sion* 

   (dĭ-lōō'zhən)  

 
n.  


The act or process of deluding.
The state of being deluded.
 
*A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.*
_Psychiatry_  A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: _delusions of persecution._

_

IMHO..the wrong meaning of delusion was taken..and objected to...and deleted.
The meaning used was in context of No. 3 on first para and No. 2 in Second Para.
and YES the Beliefs expressed are FALSE and based on ones own opinion..not FACT. 
The GOD TRUTH does not incarnate.is the FACT that is being denied via false belief...hence the correct meaning of DELUSIONAL applies correctly. 

This is not derogatory ...or disrespectful...conclusion based on my own english language knowledge.
no offense meant or taken.
_


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## Tejwant Singh (May 10, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> *de⋅lu⋅sion*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Gyani ji,

Gur Fateh.

I beg to differ with you, not about the meaning of the word *delusional* but its usage in any context in the forum where we are all to interact  and learn from each other. One  can object to the same thought which one disagrees with  in a different manner like Antonia ji has done above. It conveys the same meaning in a meaningful manner not in a derrogatory way. The objective of the Leaders is to encourage others in a positive manner so all can benefit from this forum. Please correct me If I am wrong.

So for me this word *delusional *used in any way or form when we are discussing Gurbani is disrespectful, derrogatgory and  brings nothing positive to the discussion. To the Contrary. It rather shows  the traits of a person who uses these kinds of words to denegrate others. If one claims to study Gurbani and understands it, then one can find different vocabulary to incentivate others so they can take the same Gurmat path where LOVE and KINDNESS towards ALL is the foremost.

No offence intended.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 10, 2009)

Dear Aad Ji,

Before commenting please go and read about the mythological references about 10 incarnations. Please go and read again my articles where it has been repeatdly stated that God does not incarnate. I think we are on different pages of discussion.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## pk70 (May 10, 2009)

*TO SPN Sangat Ji*
*I am glad, very experienced and respected member of SN Gyani Jarnail Singh JI conveys the truth in context of the word  “delusion” used in context of a (false)thought  not a person,( my sincere thanks to him for laying out the truth). It is crystal clear; if it were used in context of a person, it could have been suspected as derogatory. When our respected member Gyani Ji tries to pass on the fact, his leadership is questioned which actually is more disrespectful behavior. Whenever VSGrewal’s own coined views in context of God or panj Kakkar are questioned, some came into his rescue without any valid reason and supporting answer. Even when Mystique-Void in his  post in “God is wonderful”  stresses that on a forum when someone expresses views, in disagreement, it’s fair to question and the question should be answered, sadly he was also questioned for merely saying so. This is a tendency of some people who bent upon defending VSGrewal any way so that they can discourage others to question VSgrewal.  This kind of behavior also shows the traits of such persons  regardless of the  usage of the words like” Gurmat” and “learning” in their posts.*
*No intention to offend anyone.*
*Regards*
*G Singh*


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## pk70 (May 10, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> *Respected VSGrewal Ji*
> *Respectfully I have to say that you must admit that instead of  what Guru says in the following Shabada, you start following your own assumption, as you know, one cannot support one’s own assumption if facts are contrary. I am going through your recent Gurbani quote and prove you wrong once again. You are old enough to be my father but it’s hard to accept what you are preaching in the name of Gurbani.*
> *Now lets analyze again your quote in context of one of many questions were put to you.*
> “Dear All,
> ...


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 10, 2009)

Dear All,

The spiritual ignorance referred to here is not the lack of information but a deep seated misperception of reality. Divine Knowledge is the awareness and understanding of facts, truths or information gained in the form of learning. The purpose of Divine knowledge is to find the Truth and develop inner cleanliness by subjugating animal instincts and developing godly instincts or virtues.

Guru Nanak does not want to call a Moorakh bad but does not hesitate to call him a fool in Asa Di Var.

*One line quotes from shabads have been deleted. aad0002*

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## spnadmin (May 10, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> This may be my last post. Here is thje sabd to some questions;
> 
> ...



Virinder ji

The example quoted above does not address the claim that He is a universal principle. It does demonstrate that He is Conscious of His own identity and that His Identity is "concealed" from the consciousness of ordinary entitites -- as stated above Brahma along with all of creation was given its task according to His Hukam. That is all it says and if we examine the entire shabad then you will see there is more to it.


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## pk70 (May 10, 2009)

*Dear Sangat Ji, *
*Kindly judge with your own observation who is who? If one is questioned, does the questioner become “fool” because he asks question to the author to explain his own assumptions? If  instead of answering, he implies “fool” in the following quote, what you should think of him? A person who have understood rightfully Divine Knowledge?*
  Dear All,

The spiritual ignorance referred to here is not the lack of information but a deep seated misperception of reality. *(VSGrewal Ji)*
*One is trying to understand that Reality through Gurbani; other is making his assumptions about God a reality, who has fallen for misconception? His failure  to answer questions shows the person is into misconception that all should hear his sermons without a question because questioning means becoming fools(in his mind).*

  Divine Knowledge is the awareness and understanding of facts, truths or information gained in the form of learning
*It depends if that learning occurs as per the knowledge of those who experienced Ultimate Truth -Satt, it is fine, if it is conceived with one individuals’ own mind theory, it cannot be called reception of Devine knowledge*
  . The purpose of Divine knowledge is to find the Truth and develop inner cleanliness by subjugating animal instincts and developing godly instincts or virtues.
*Very true,  if it occurs only by understanding  the divine knowledge of the enlightened ones about the  ultimate reality  otherwise there are a lot out there who are  beating drums of  their narrow concepts of Ultimate reality, they must be opposed strongly

*Guru Nanak does not want to call a Moorakh bad but does not hesitate to call him a fool in Asa Di Var.
*Very true, again the application of the quote from Guru should be analyzed,. Who asks the questions triggered from unacceptable concept of God in context Gurbani, how on the questioners such quote is applicable? And who is good at dodging relevant questions, isn’t it applicable to him more than anyone but I wouldn’t stoop that low and  will not declare that.*
* When relevant questions were put to Guru Nanak, he doesn’t call others Murakh(fools)( SIDHGOST) but answers them one by one unlike our respected member VSGrewal Ji who has terribly failed to answer any of the questions with reasoning he boasts about and now is implying Gurbani to call the questioners “fools”*

ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਆਖੀਐ ਪੜਿ ਅਖਰੁ ਏਹੋ ਬੁਝੀਐ ॥[/FONT]ਮੂਰਖੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਲੁਝੀਐ ॥[/FONT] 

_Mandaa Kisai Na Aakheyaa Parh Akhar Eho Bujheyaa, Moorkhai Naal Na Lujhee-aa._

Do not call anyone bad. Read these words, and understand! Don't argue with ignorant of spirituality. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 473-13(quote by VSGrewal Ji)

*SPN Sangat can well judge in what context this quote is applicable.*

This Sabd of Kabir in Raag Gond again ponders on similar personalities;

ਸੰਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਕਹੀਐ ॥[/FONT]ਮਿਲੈ ਅਸੰਤੁ ਮਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥[/FONT]ਬਾਬਾ ਬੋਲਨਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ॥[/FONT]ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥[/FONT] ਸੰਤਨ ਸਿਉ ਬੋਲੇ ਉਪਕਾਰੀ ॥[/FONT]ਮੂਰਖ ਸਿਉ ਬੋਲੇ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੀ ॥[/FONT]ਬੋਲਤ ਬੋਲਤ ਬਢਹਿ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥[/FONT]ਬਿਨੁ ਬੋਲੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥[/FONT]ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਛੂਛਾ ਘਟੁ ਬੋਲੈ ॥[/FONT]ਭਰਿਆ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ॥[/FONT]
_San__ṯ[/FONT] milai kic__ẖẖ[/FONT] sunī¬ai kahī¬ai, Milai asan__ṯ[/FONT] masat kar rahī¬ai, Bābā bolnā ki¬ā kahī¬ai, Jaisė rām nām rav rahī¬ai, San__ṯ[/FONT]an si¬o bolė upkārī, Mūrak__ẖ[/FONT] si¬o bolė j__ẖ[/FONT]ak__ẖ[/FONT] mārī, Bola__ṯ[/FONT] bola__ṯ[/FONT] bad__ẖ[/FONT]eh bikārā, Bin bolė ki¬ā karahi bīc__ẖ[/FONT]ārā, Kaho Kabīr c__ẖẖ[/FONT]ūc__ẖẖ[/FONT]ā g__ẖ[/FONT]at bolai, B__ẖ[/FONT]ari¬ā ho¬ė so kabahu na dolai. _

When you meet a Saint, talk to him and listen. Meeting with an unsaintly person, just remain silent. O father, if I speak what words should I utter? Speak such words, by which you may remain absorbed in the Name of the God. Speaking with the Saints, one becomes benevolent. To speak with a fool is to babble uselessly. By speaking and only speaking, corruption only increases. If I do not speak, what can the poor wretch do? Says Kabir, the empty pitcher makes noise, but that which is full makes no sound. -----Kabir, Raag Gond, AGGS, Page, 870
*Some satisfied with their own misconceptions and consider themselves Kabir Ji who was well enlightened. Notable fact is that Kabir Ji was not silent when he faced questions; actually he keeps questioning people who were mired with misconceptions just as some call ultimate Reality-God a “principle. On this forum, when one is trying to preach his own cooked up Sikhi, I call all to question such preacher-pundit because whatever he says, he has failed horribly to support it from Gurbani,  and stoop low to imply Gurbani to call questioners “fools”, imagine the intent of the person! I leave all on you.*

*Regards*
*G Singh*


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## spnadmin (May 10, 2009)

Virinder ji,

You have been trying to make the case in this thread and in the thread Sikh Khanda that God is a Universal Principle. More recently now you are saying He is the Absolute principle. So you are back-peddling. But it is not going to work.

In the first part of the shabad that you quoted on Ang 1279 it is clearly stating that the Satgur gave creation all of its tasks to perform including the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, who were created along with every other part of his Design. Shiva cannot find the limits of Akaal, because as we have stated earlier only Akaal is consciousn of the extent of His identity. No one and nothing else. We do see also  that His throne is established on principles of truth (in other word, he is not a principle, rather He is the One Who decided what the principles are supposed to be). Principles cannot create more principles. He is the creator of everything including the principles that guide our actions. As the Satugur, His identity is Truth, and only the Truth can determine what the principles of truth are. If you cannot accept this, then we then we are dealing with a tautology, a circular argument. 

Now to the part of the shabad that you quoted. 

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
pourree ||
Pauree:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.

ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥
dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.

ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.

ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.

ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth.

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.

 He is the One who gives principles and tasks, He however is concealed from view. In other words, this is his play and he decides on the plot, the script and the roles – i.e., the principles by which the universe is supported and the principles by which Dharma is upheld (please do not advise me to read your article on Dharma because I am not in need of your guidance.)
*
But for reasons that are known only to you **did not include the final line. *Here it is. 

ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਾਏ ਕਰਮ ਧੁਰਹੁ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
dhharam karaaeae karam dhhurahu furamaaeiaa ||3||
The Primal Lord has ordained that mortals must practice righteousness. ||3||


This is the entire point of the shabad. The shabad has nothing to do with defining God as a Universal principle or as an Absolute principle. The point of the shabad is to instruct us as to our purpose in life: The Sat has ordained that we walk in Dharma.


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## Archived_Member5 (May 13, 2009)

The WaheGuru, Supreme Spirit, Creator, Almighty Father, Alpha and Omega, Aum is a universal principle. What is the universe ... http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1223/perspectivestars8665886.gif {A slide show of all the planets relative in size}. The end of the cosmos as yet remains unlocated or found. It is by this virtue considered an infinite, beyond the current measure of mans comprehension, understanding or line of vision. We understand the infinity of the university as a principle relative to the lack of ability to reach its outer parameters and ends. This is the nature and principle of universality.

The conscious mind expands with understanding and enlightenment. As a child knows no more than its immediate world, matures, grows learning about its world. what stage of consciousness the child will attain is part predestined and part personal enterprise. How can a blind man see, or the dumb sing of universal wonders is a metaphorical term for the world appearing as complex, immense or as finite as the beholders eye and understanding.

To infer God cannot be found, or the universe measured, or Absolute Truth completely understood is to cast one’s own incomplete learning upon a complete and whole world. It is a false misconception and delusion. It is said the universe was created from a thoughts, considered as a sesame seed, a pearl, a flame of light bursting into a prism. Consider God seated upon his rock manifests his ideal from a thought into matter. Matter is reduced to ashes and spirit or consciousness returns to his. It is the returning, merging back into what appears or has become a cosmological infinite that religion and Sikhism seeks to map or charter a path for. 

Without this path of truth and enlightenment and avoidance of self interests illusory distractions seeking with mean purpose to retain man here in servitude to deceitful powers preying upon a souls constricted and stifled within matter is the meaning and journey of life. If God is conscious energy assumed in matter or physical form and a world, the physical laws determining the causal factors to create matter from energy will offer further explanation. 

What is dharma, religions have become institutions embroiled in fighting and battling over differences deemed irreconcilable by nature of a lack of grace and authority. A glance about us, at the abuse of power, of persons unable to contend with points of view differing from their own agenda, or able to offer viable reasonable alternatives has created in this hostile environment a disdain and resultant refrain from what is religion, causing a worsening of faithlessness and confusion. The task of pastoral mentors is not only to lead, guide and inspire but correct what may seem false dichotomy’s than what can be considered garrulous abuse of power. 

Religion remains a passionate topic of conflict, this conflict is easily eased and united with the application of tacit diplomacy than the wielding of power by persons otherwise lacking in the moral authority or understanding in matters of spirituality. Scriptural preaching lends credence to otherwise misguided and irrational minds, leaders bring to life and unravel the complexity whilst preachers recite ad verbatim large passages from the SGGS without any understanding of its many meanings.

If ad verbatim recitation is demanded then what purpose does discussion or debate serve other than create and exacerbate further confusion. Some welcome contrary views as exercises in expanding ones horizons and aligning what are considered mysteries with reason to create or bolster valid long standing premises. A calling to religion is considered a gift, few know truth, and lesser still are able to heed or fathom its apparent immeasurable depth.


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## Archived_Member5 (May 13, 2009)

The universality principle of God, Waheguru is connected with the theory of irreducible complexity. If creation is its entirety were formed or stemmed from a singular cell, seed, could the creation be returned to its original contextual size and constituent. 

The almighty father breathes his spirit into matter and it becomes as he is, his thoughts as visualised become reality, physical, material, Some argue the chemical; composites of the universe are too diverse and complex to be reduced to the originating state and measure of the seedling cell. Yet is we consider God as a spiritual universal principle we find the universe is as readily contained in a single being as its potential; to expand into universal proportions.

I maintain matter is reducible although laws of physics may disagree the bio-degradability of many substances and materials. The Spirit, Life Force or thermodynamic energy is measured as a power, a force as energy. The universal seed contained within one portal,  or the universe as the portal wherein contained the entire cosmos. An issue of individual perspective, consciousness and awareness. ...

 :airhead:


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## D-Singh (May 15, 2009)

I find it amusing when people quote lines from a book written hundreds of years ago. Its common sense! Help others, respect others. 
*
Mod's note: Undermining Sikhism or the fundamental value of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a violation of our rules at SPN. So please tread carefully when you try to say that a quote from a book that is more than 100 years old has little value to you. Please be warned.  aad0002*


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 15, 2009)

Dear D-Singh Ji,

It is sharing one's experiences and learnings from any sourse which is important and not criticizing. If you like others suggestions, keep it otherwise delete. I agree with you completely. Common sense is defined as sound judgment derived from experience.  It does not require specialized, esoteric knowledge. It is based upon what is believed to be the knowledge held by people, in common with the others. It is the ability to make sensible decisions with good reasoning. Commonsense is not as uncommon as is usually proclaimed. It may require a little soul searching to use it. The Scottish philosopher, Thomas Reid, a contemporary of Hume, offer a number of so-called "earmarks" of common sense.  He also calls them principles of common sense:
1. Principles of common sense are believed universally (except apparently by some philosophers and the insane).
2. It is appropriate to ridicule the denial of common sense.
3. The denial of principles of common sense leads to contradictions. 

Thanks.

Virinder


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## spnadmin (May 15, 2009)

*Well what I have learned about common sense is that it isn't very common. Let me also point out the purpose of this forum is to have discussions not to terminate them because one or another member has a problem with the topic or with the desire of other participants to take an approach one finds uncomfortable for whatever reason. We don't want to discourage in-depth reviews just because they ares not cozy and earthy and that makes us nervous. Please also remember to apply the full shabad in responses where lines from SGGS are used. Thanks, aad0002. *


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## spnadmin (May 15, 2009)

This may have been quoted from Gurbani earlier in the thread, but is worth looking once more.

From Ang 1279


ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.

  ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ 
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth.

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view

Link to full shabad http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.p...guru_granth_sahib&action=pagebypage&page=1279


Only one time in Gurbani is the idea of "principle" mentioned. Guru Amar Das is telling us that He established His throne on the principles of Truth. Does this suggest that Akaal is not a principle? Rather Akaal is greater than principles and uses, employs, creates principles to fashion his Universe. He controls the principles that are part of creation. 

Everyone should be free to espouse personal understandings. But not to be confused with bani found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Archived_Member5 (May 16, 2009)

It is astute to remain mindful that the Great and Noble Lord Shiva too, akin to many Gods was destroyed by a witch muse, who thereafter became an evil and vicious deity supported by those it pandered to and bound with spells. This ordinate impressed Shiva at a low point in his life journye and came to consume and devour him of his power and Glory. This trifling muse who post destroying his repute and standing became independant of him, as he fell into ignominy, as most Power Lords before him did at ome point, {Zeus, Indra etc}. The tales and allegories written by the spectators of the systematic destruction of The Gods are therefore largely dismissed by most intellectuals and scholars.

When the Gods wage war, the narrators of the incidentals and testimonies tend to hold a bias for a member or party in preference over another. This preference is rarely based upon merit, but rather which God* serves’’ the interest of the majority. There is no incident of application of truth involved at all. It is this misleading and inaccurate information that causes many to dismiss most allegorical fables relating to the ‘Gods’’ as conjecture and prejudicial opinion as the outcome of these Holy Wars indicates the remiss of premises of truth than any discernible devout adherence.

The education system is governed by state regulations and indoctrinates or teaches academics an agenda seeking to circumvent faith in religious belief systems. It instils a disdain and rejection of theological principles in favour of the ubiquitously vague evolution and religious diversity primarily to exacerbate confusion and division. Religion and belief in God is decimated whilst witchcraft and pagan practices are encouraged and accorded legitimacy in what appears a state propaganda machine to derail God and religion. Increase in use of devilry causes suffering, mental disorders and social fragmentation fuelling heathenism as the spirit, virtues and attributes of Godhood are systematically eroded increasing an absence and deemed nonexistance of God. 

Lord Shiva’s throne was once based upon principles of absolute truth, yet we know history changed course and he was led by less that truthful, evil influence and counsel to his destruction, contextually speaking. Lord Shiva as a God is immortal and abides in Spirit. What we should learn from this Bani is the vulnerability and fragility of Waheguru and his Lordships. A god is an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent as the fidelity of his creation to his Spirit and doctrine.


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