# Enough Is Enough



## kds1980 (Sep 25, 2009)

Enough Is Enough
Stop Sacrilege Now, Sikh Panth Sends Clear Message
WSN Bureau 



 After days of immense patience in the face of highly provocative actions of some sections of the Ravidasia community, the Sikh panth has finally decided to show its resolve and tell the wayward elements that enough is enough.

In a show of unity and a considered approach to converge energies and send a clear message to tricky elements often finding some support from the official Indian establishment, the Sikh clergy, the SGPC, many panthic organisations and saner elements from Ravidasia community have now come together.

At a conclave at village Sarmastpur near Jalandhar, Akal Takht jathedar Giani Gurbachan Singh made it clear that efforts to take out a portion of the Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib and to only propagate that portion have gone on for far too long and will not be tolerated any further.

But within 48 hours of the resolute stand taken unitedly by the Akal Takht, the other Sikh Takhts, the SGPC and the panthic  organisations, a major section of the Ravidasia fraternity seemed to be seeing the logic. Samaj Bachao Morcha's convenor Sri Gian Chand and other presidium members of the Morcha convened a press conference on Sunday saying they strongly oppose segregating the Bani of Bhagat Ravidass ji from Guru Granth Sahib and it was a nefarious exercise being indulged in by a very small section.

Gian Chand said such an approach will only end up constricting and confining the range of Bhagat Ravidass' message.

Similarly, the Sri Guru Ravidass Sadhu Sampardai Society, the main organization of Sants of the Ravidassia community, also asserted full faith and respect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib and said it was dead against any decision to remove the birs of Guru Granth Sahib from their shrines or deras.

Sources said the message is now reaching those who were leading the movement to displace Guru Granth Sahib from certain shrines. Sampardai Society president Sant Nirmal Dass Jaure Wale said the sants of the society had decided that there could be no getting away from the scripture that preaches egalitarianism and Sarbat Da Bhala and the emancipation of those oppressed by the centuries-old caste system.

Addressing the Sikh sangat on Saturday in the presence of fellow clerics from other Sikh Takhts, the SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar, Sant Samaj president Baba Harnam Singh Khalsa, Khalsa Action Committee's Bhai Mohkam Singh, AISSF's Karnail Singh PeerMohammad and many senior Akali leaders from different factions, the Akal Takht jathedar took serious note of sacrilege of Sri Guru Granth Sahib at village Moga of Bhogpur town in Jalandhar where some crackpot elements had displaced the bir of Guru Granth Sahib from the palki and instead placed a picture of a Ravidasia self-styled sant.

The sick mind identified 

As All India Sikh Students President Karnail Singh PeerMohammad said a particular Congress leader, who was a minister in the erstwhile Amarinder Singh cabinet, was behind the moves of crackpot elements of Ravidasia community, there was much agreement on it. Clearly, Peer Mohammad was naming former minister Chowdhry Jagjit Singh who is known for his communal stance. There seemed to be a general agreement that such a fellow should be immediately sent behind bars to prevent any damage to communal harmony.


Now, sensing the level of rage among the panthic leaders and the Sikh sangat, certain people connected with the Moga gurdwara where sacrilege had happened and who were being named in the episode, approached Damdami Taksal's Bhai Harnam Singh the evening before the conclave on Saturday and said they were in no way connected with the sacrilege and would rather extend cooperation to bring the guilty to book.

Takht Damdama Sahib jathedar Bhai Balwant Singh Nandgarh hauled the government over coals saying while those fighting against Sirsa dera's fraudster baba were being arrested and put behind bars, no action was being taken against elements committing sacrilege of Guru Granth Sahib.

The clarion call to take a stand against those leading a sort of movement to get removed Sri Guru Granth Sahib from Ravidasia shrines and install portraits of controversial leaders of the Sachkhand Ballan dera and recite only the bani of Bhagat Ravidas followed after it became clear that someone needed to talk sense with a measure of firmness to the so-called followers of the Ballan dera.

Former Akal Takht jathedar Bhai Jasbir Singh Rode said it was sad that the SGPC failed to find out the whole truth in Vienna. He said the Akal Takht jathedar should stop looking towards the SGPC or the Akali Dal leadership and should take his own decisions. "The fact remains that in Vienna, the so called self styled Ballan sect followers were indulging in sacrilege of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and it was this that led to the clash when local Sikhs objected to it," he said.

 Now, the Samaj Bachao Morcha's Gian Chand has said he is trying to remove the bitterness among all sides. He said there is now increasing realization that segregating the 40 hymns of Bhagat Ravidass

from rest of the Gurbani was, advertently or inadvertently, negating the importance and relevance of the philosophy of Ravidass.

He said the birs will be brought back at most of the shrines very soon. Sources said the* Ravidasia community leaders in India were feeling the pressure from their NRI counterparts in other countries who were leading the movement to displace the birs. The SGPC, it was suggested, should take the help of NRI Sikhs to counter such pressure. One more suspicious element leading the anti-Sikh charge was the self-styled Ambedkar Sena.*

SGPC general secretary Sukhdev Singh Bhaur said any further step by anyone who tried to divide the gurbani or take out one portion will not be allowed and will be firmly put in his place.

23 September 2009


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## kds1980 (Sep 25, 2009)

One thing always surprises me that why Religious Nri's and south Asians are so fanatics.
there are plenty of fanatic  and orthodox sikhs outside India, BJP and RSS has mass support among
NRI hindu's and much of their funds come from them.UK is now a well known place of fanatic muslims and now NRI ravidasi's which are putting pressure on Indian ravidasi's to remove Guru granth sahib.


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## spnadmin (Sep 25, 2009)

Kanwardeep Singh ji

Thanks for posting such an interesting article, with a lot of detailed information and a good picture of the point/counter-point issues and scnearios in a very complicated relationship.


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## faujasingh (Sep 25, 2009)

The Ravidasia diaspora thinks on the ground of independent identity, many of them are are in fact wanting to be cut off from both the sikh and hindu identity.

They have been in great shock since the assasination. The Sant ji was well known and use to always travel and meet the followers. A ravidasia friend of mine is based in London, in these months I have seen a great change in him. He had cried out the day the assasination happened as he was close to the Sant ji. He now spends time online and is always kind of gathering people who think like him. 

Nowadays when I talk to him and even by accident if I say you know how our sikhs....he will cut me right there ' hey its not 'our' its 'your' I am ravidasia.. not sikh !!"

There is a growing feeling of separating from the sikh mainstream and establishing their own identity. I too feel that guilt and feel when i meet him I wont be able to see him eye to eye.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 25, 2009)

Most of the Muslims who migrated to Pakistan..were Chmaars, mirasees, and other low castes who had "no hope" in India and hoped that somehow things would change in Muslim Pakistan..NOTHING CHANGED..they are at the very bottom of Pakistani Society just as they were in Pre partition India....somethings never change !!

The SANT Ballan DERA shardhaloos are just that..DERA SHARDHALOOS...exactly the same as other DERA Shardhaloos...RS dera..Namdhari dera..gurmeet Dera..Asutosh dera..whatever..the only difference in this case the Ballan DERA followers are Mostly Chamaars..ravidasiis...while those of other deras are MIXED...but all other thing s being equal they are all DERA FOLLOWERS...NONE ARE SIKHS. One thing i am sure about is IF they remain as DERA Ballan followers..they will REMAIN Ravidassi chmaars...among chmaars..CLOSED COMMUNITY....as the chmaars in Pakistan remain mulsim chmaars without Land whcih the Muslim jatts continue to own. ONLY AS SIKHS can they BREAK OUT of this self imposed exile...They can attempt to ..."take Ravidass out of SGGS/SIKHS...BUT they can NEVER take the SGGS/SIKHS OUT OF RAVIDASS..as the TWO are GLUED so TIGHT that no force can take them apart.....GLUED WITH  GLUE OF PYAAR BY GURU NANAK/GURU ARJUN JI SAHIB.


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## harbansj24 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gyani ji,

I think faujasingh jis point has been missed.

 Whatever might have been the provocation, a group of so called upper castes "Sikhs" had no business whatsoever to to enter a place of worship in a foreign country and create mayhem there.

It is precisely because of such repeated insane acts of a few "Sikhs" that we do not get proper support internationally for redressal  of even  our genuine grievances. 

Guru ji asked us to take up arms for the defense of weak and _not to attack the weak._

The sad part is that even after the attack the response of Sikhs was subdued and there was no loud and clear message distancing the Sikhs from the attack.

Its time that we emphatically start disowning the acts of a few nuts.

And by the way calling Dalits by casteists names is _now _a criminal offense in India!


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## kds1980 (Sep 26, 2009)

> The Ravidasia diaspora thinks on the ground of independent identity, many of them are are in fact wanting to be cut off from both the sikh and hindu identity.



It is not so easy to create a separate identity .Many spiritual paths were started in India
and with time many of them dissappeared or merged in Hinduism.I think they are moving towards hinduism.The ashes of sant Ramanand were taken to Hardwar .Now can any Ravidasi explain what is the significance of Hardwar For Ravidasi's.



> There is a growing feeling of separating from the sikh mainstream and establishing their own identity. I too feel that guilt and feel when i meet him I wont be able to see him eye to eye.



Fauja singh ji

Its surprising to me why do you feel guilty .No one knows the truth behind the assasination 
No sikh leader said that Sant Ramanand should be killed.Whether it was fanatic Sikhs,Dera politics,
Bjp.Congress ,Badal anybody could be behind the assasination but in No way entire sikh community should be blamed or feel guilty


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## kds1980 (Sep 26, 2009)

Here is anti sikh propaganda from a amberkarite site in disguise of bhagat ravidas  ji

</title> <meta name="Description" content=""> <meta name="keywords" content=""> <meta name="rating" content="general"> <meta name="copyright" content=""> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css"> </head> <body topmargin="0" leftmargin=

PROLOGUE: Will murderous attack on Vienna Ravidas Gurdwara bring about any change? NO! They will continue as Ravidasia Sikhs/Adi-Dhrarmi Hindus. Most Ravidasi Gurdwaras will disown sant Rama Nand and follow Sikh Maryada in full. Even Ravidasi Sants will change their system and become real Sikh preachers. Following article written long back is more relevant today. Baba Sahib’s path is the quickest, the safest and completely metamorphosing personally and collectively. Just read, think and act.


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## harbansj24 (Sep 26, 2009)

> Fauja singh ji
> 
> Its surprising to me why do you feel guilty .No one knows the truth behind the assasination
> No sikh leader said that Sant Ramanand should be killed.Whether it was fanatic Sikhs,Dera politics,
> Bjp.Congress ,Badal anybody could be behind the assasination but in No way entire sikh community should be blamed or feel guilty


 ​You are absolutely right Kanwardeep Singh ji. That is why there should have been an immediate and emphatic message from mainstream Sikhs clearly condemning the attack and distancing themselves from the act. There should also have been  declaration of solidarity with the community. 
Unfortunately that did not happen. Whatever response was there, it was muted and came only as an after thought


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 26, 2009)

harbansj24 said:


> You are absolutely right Kanwardeep Singh ji. That is why there should have been an immediate and emphatic message from mainstream Sikhs clearly condemning the attack and distancing themselves from the act. There should also have been  declaration of solidarity with the community.
> Unfortunately that did not happen. Whatever response was there, it was muted and came only as an after thought



Harbans Ji,
While i agree with most of what you say...the Sant had been warned many many times NOT to engage in desecrating acts ref the SGGS..at firts he merely sat on par with SGGS...in Vienna he had begun to ask his shardhaloos to TOUCH the SGGS RUMALLAHS to HIS FEET First before putting on SGGS.
2. Most Ravidass Sabha Gurdwaras in UK ahd Banned this Sant from entering their Gurdwaras just becauee of such sacrilegeous actions.

Makhee dekh ke niglee nahin jandee..some of  us may be spiritually DEAD inside to see a rumnallah for SGGS being stepped on by a human..and LOOK THE OTHER WAY...cite Guru Gobind Singh Ji and say Sword is last resort..etc etc...others may think death is better than watching such sacrilege of their GURU...many sikhs want the best of Both worlds...in relaity that cnanot be....in my area many of my friends  have Radha soami relatives..namdharee relatives..ravidassi relatives...these friends all preach.."Sarbatt da bhalla"...even when the SGGS is denigrated/insulted as just a dead BOOK..to them their Relatives are LIVING and more Valuable than the SGGS !! I cna Understand their PRIORITIES..BUT woudl Never say all other Sikhs also Follow their Sarbatt da Bhalla philosophy...and just IGNORE what happens to SGGS...in light of fact that any protest will alineate the relatives..ravidasis etc etc..some people just haev hot blood..others have ice cold blood flowing in them..yet others have white blood...no offense...but IMHO the Sant Ballan in Vienna is not "the weak"...his actions are not of the weak...but of the arrogant !!:down:


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## selvi (Sep 26, 2009)

*Removed from Enough is Enough thread*

It's raining, it's pouring
my lovelife is boring me to tears, 
after all these years

No sunshine, no moonlight, 
no stardust, no sign of romance
we don't stand a chance

I've always dreamed I 'd find the perfect lover
but he turned out to be like every other man
our love, our love

Raining (raining)
pouring (pouring)
there's nothing left for us here
and we won't waste another tear

If you've had enough, 
don't put up with his stuff, 
don't you do it
If you've had your fill,
get the check pay the bill, 
you can do it

Tell him to just get out
nothing left to talk about
pack his raincoat show him out
just look him in the eyes and simply shout

Enough is enough is enough
I can't go on, I can't go on, no more no
enough is enough is enough
I want him out, I want him out that door now

I've always dreamed to find the perfect lover,
but he turns out to be like every other man
our love (I had no choice from the start)
our love (I've gotta listen to my heart)
our love (tearing us apart)

Enough, is enough, is enough
I can't go on, I can't go on no more no
enough, is enough, is enough
I want him out, I want him out that door now

Goodbye mister, goodbye, 
goodbye mister, goodbye sugar

No more tears
no more tears
no more tears
I've had it, you've had it, he's had it, we've had it
enough is enough is enough is enough

is enough is enough is enough is ENOUGH!!!


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## harbansj24 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gyani ji,

If what you say is right, then it is absolutely sacrileges and cannot be tolerated. But this is not publicly known. In public consumption at least he had been preaching respect for SGGS.

On the other hand Dera Sacha Souda had publically ridiculed Amrit of Guru Gobind Singh  ji and the entire Sikh community was up in arms demanding action against him. Non Sikhs were also aghast at the    Desecration.

Whatever maybe the case there are better ways with dealing with the situation then just barging into a place of worship and creating mayhem and murder and as Kanwarjit Singh ji rightly points out, it most probably  was not the work of mainstream Sikhs. So it should have been immediately condemned and the act distanced.


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## jasbirkaleka (Sep 26, 2009)

:}Sat Sri Akal. I am in full agreement with Giani Jarnail Singh and I fail to understand the guilty concience that some Sikhs feel.I this their blood has turned white. But I fail to understand why we are forcing them to instal back SGGS in their so called gurudwaras,because they are actully mandirs and the Siks sangat should ask them to stop naming these mandirs as Gurudwaras. You can not force anyone to respect your sacred sciptures ,it should come from within their own hearts and concience.


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## faujasingh (Sep 27, 2009)

so is there no way that a issue can be addressed in a lawful manner ? do you mean Gyani ji that if tomorrow you say something which according to me is anti sikhi i should just come to you and pump bullets in you ruthlessly ? is this the only solution ?

All these claims that you r making about the rumallas and so on and so forth, were they even ever exposed in a manner it would have been lawful. Did they try issue a warning through the sgpc ? why was there no documentation of what is happening ???   So the Akaal Takhat whom we consider the prime authority was also sidelined. This was not even taken up there.

Gyani ji, muaaf karna but the message which is going to the readers is 'go and bump off people and then claim aah they were anti sikh ! 

Had this been sorted in the right way, had they brought in pictures and videos of the rumallas being touched to his feet before being offered to Guru Granth Sahib ji maharaj things would have been different. 

There was a good show of the terrorism potraying  'yea our boys can do it ' 

There is more anti sikh activity done by those sikh converts to christianity who still are in the amritdhaari swaroop and claim that their path is the only way. Does that so called 'babbar khalsa' even warn them ? have you even noticed sites like www.sikhs2islam.com  ???    

'Trample the weak' is the policy of such elements. 


I am sorrry guys but I cannot support terrorism. Is this the way we are going to do parchaar in a foreign land ?? Why the hell should police reach Gurudwaras. Those people there are just in that stage to understand us and we are going there and showing them ' look this is the way we treat people who dont agree to us ! ' 

Taking the wrong channel and even supporting such a dastardly gruesome act Is the way guys ???


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 27, 2009)

Guru Piayario Jios..

I am NOT supporting "terrrorism..or anything..." I am not a Christian who says..heres my second cheek..whack all you want..Guru Arjun Ji offered the cheek..then finis...no more. Guru Hargobind Ji..is the other "cheek"...

What I am saying is that this UNKNOWN so called holy man who has a DERA in ballan was doing things which NO SIKH should stand idly by and WATCH/TOLERATE. IF it was ME..I would WALK OUT...if it was MY DAD (late DALER..the BRAVE ONE !!( He would grab the Nearest stick..Danda...he once whacked a person who insisted on TALKING to him while he was clearly RECITING JAPJI SAHIB and preparing DEG....AFTER the DEG was prepared..to teach him a lesson that one takes  a HINT..and withdraws while Japji is being read and Deg is being  prepared..the HINTS being..polite shoos away signals with hand...AND more importnatly..this man is a SIKH, Gurdwara Pardhaan and had been TOLD about this in a PUBLIC LECTURE form the Gurdwara Stage by my dad who was the Gyani...but his "pardhangee" was too heavy a burden...to bear..he lost  a EAR..becasue dad twisted it OFF...BUT for me i take things differently..and so do a lot of others..AND AFTER LOsing a ear..he was so cool and friendly..and NEVER interfered in deg/langgar production ever again..till dad retired form service...POLITENESS is sometimes taken as a sign of WEAKNESS too...Guru Arjun Ji sahib taught us SHANTI..and THEN..do the NEEDFUL. Period. 
I am SUPPORTING SATIKAAR FOR SGGS. Period. Those supporting the sant are supporting such acts. period...and without even an iota of proof that he DIDNT DO SUCH ACTS...there is never smoke without fire....I have said ENOUGH on this.Period.

People FORGET SO EASILY...the Akal Takhat JATHEDAR...Ranjit SINGH...!!! REMEMBER HIM and TELL Me who he is and who he was..and what he did...??? How come he became AT Jathedar ??..I mean all those who are making such a hullabaloo about not telling the Akal Takhat blah blah...did they tell the Akal takhat anything THEN ?? Do they even have an INKLING of just how many things were indeed told to AT..in the past decade..and still "PENDING"....


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 27, 2009)

the videos of BEADBI are on the Internet..


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## spnadmin (Sep 28, 2009)

For those of you who missed this thread a few  hours ago. It has been reviewed in the Leader's section. Some posts have been moved out. Now it is in the Hard Talk forum.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 28, 2009)

For all the Jathas, Derawalas, Ravidassis, Radasaomis, Nirankaaris, Naamdharis and so called many self proclaimed " Sikh Sants", SGGS is nothing but a money making machine. They promote their own dogmas and idol worshipping of SGGS so that they can rake money that people put in front of our ONLY GURU.

If these people are not ready to accept SGGS as our ONLY GURU, then all those who do accept that should raise their voices against this charade and these people. 

Last but not the least, all those of us who accept SGGS as our ONLY GURU, should follow the teachings and put them into everyday practice. Only our practicing Sikhi in this manner will act as  fumigation against these deadly bugs.

Tejwant Singh


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## faujasingh (Sep 28, 2009)

Whatever the case be, would anyone of us say it was OK ? would we agree to assasinations in cold blood ? whosoever the case be, I dont support this way of criminalising sikhi. I dont know how many of you do.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 28, 2009)

faujasingh said:


> Whatever the case be, would anyone of us say it was OK ? would we agree to assasinations in cold blood ? whosoever the case be, I dont support this way of criminalising sikhi. I dont know how many of you do.



Fauja Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

No one implied that killing is ok for the Sikhs who disagree. I have no idea where you got that from. Read Gyani ji's posts again, no where did he ever mention that. He does not need any defending by anyone but I did not see what you have implied in your posts.

Talking about criminalising Sikhi, it is the Sikhs who do that when they take their Kirpans out  when the disagreements occur in the Gurdwaras and use them as swords and it happens quite often.

Tejwant Singh


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## faujasingh (Sep 28, 2009)

Tejwant ji please read what is in bold and tell me what does it mean. In any of the posts has there not been a kind of 'OKAYING' to that gruesome killing ? I really dint expect it from him. I am not against him as in person, please try to understand that. I am against the whole idea of potraying valour to such acts. The posts do mean agreeing to such acts of cowardice.






Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayario Jios..
> 
> I am NOT supporting "terrrorism..or anything..." I am not a Christian who says..heres my second cheek..whack all you want..Guru Arjun Ji offered the cheek..then finis...no more. Guru Hargobind Ji..is the other "cheek"...
> 
> ...


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## spnadmin (Sep 28, 2009)

faujasingh ji

Do you think Gyani is supporting Ranjit Singh or speaking against him? In a few of you previous posts it seems that you may be missing his meaning. No offense. Just a concern.


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## faujasingh (Sep 28, 2009)

so thats a new way of posting views i need to learn ? sound right in between ...wowwww !!!


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## kds1980 (Sep 28, 2009)

> I am SUPPORTING SATIKAAR FOR SGGS. Period. Those supporting the sant are supporting such acts. period...and without even an iota of proof that he DIDNT DO SUCH ACTS...there is never smoke without fire....I have said ENOUGH on this.Period.



Gyani ji

I don't think anyone here is supporting the sant.But by picking a gun or danda will do more harm sikh community than good.now let me quote something from sanatan sikh website
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanatan Sikhi - Sikh Sampardas
The late 1980’s and early 1990s saw these militant Sikhs carrying out genocide of Sant Nirankaris in the name of cleansing the ‘Sikh Panth’ of unwanted foes. Rather than weakening the Sant Nirankari movement, this mindless persecution served to elevate the Sant Nirankaris to the status of martyrs.

As fate would have it, over time, the Khalistani Sikh militant/terrorist groups were defeated by the Indian security forces, and the Sant Nirankari movement, lead by Baba Hardev Singh began to flourish in Delhi and the surrounding regions. Today, the movement has extended to as far as Europe and Canada.* It is a well-known fact that persecution only serves to strengthen movements over time. *

Prior to the Khalistani movement in the 1980s, there is no example of Sikhs persecuting ANY heretical movement within it ranks. Even the despicable Sikh sect, the Handalias, who caused so much harm to the Khalsa in the 19th century were allowed to die a natural and inevitable death.

*As the truth is revealed, false movements fade away given time. Reasoned truth is the ultimate weapon against heresy, not violence and/or persecution.* Furthermore, it has to be realized that heresy often arises when orthodoxy itself has some shortcomings.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are thousands of sants in Punjab .may be many of them are now not doing proper satkaar of Guru granth sahib The more some hot blooded sikhs will kill them the more martyrs they will become.The ultimate loser is going to be sikh panth.This is Diplomatic world and we have to work with diplomacy rather than picking a Danda or Gun against these sants


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## spnadmin (Sep 28, 2009)

faujasingh said:


> you hit the nail Kanwardeep ji. This is exactly what we been trying to explain. Imagine this, our Gyani ji says videos are available on you tube. Should we take that as solid documentry proof and stoop that low as murdering an old unarmed man???? We are acting like malechch than like a true Khalsa.




*OK - This has happened one too many times now. You have repeatedly attributed words, meanings and intentions to Gyani ji that are base when in fact he has not said/intended any of it. You have done this in spite of opportunities provided for you to soften up your approach. Infraction will be issued forthwith.

Debate issues. Do not engage in innuendo. 

 You are also in a very cunning way trying to create the image that by agreeing with Kanwardeep Singh ji that Kanwardeep Singh ji agrees with you. Do not continue on this path. 
*


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