# Sikhism And Sex



## Learner55 (Nov 5, 2011)

WJKK WJKF, 

I am a 22 year old sardar,  with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others. 

However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not  engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a)  done smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession. 

WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others  poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the  user or others. 

But what does sex do?


Thank you.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 5, 2011)

Welcome Learner55 ji and your first post at spn.

Sikhism does not de-link sex from procreation.  Procreation is considered through "Anand Karaj" or marriage and union of souls.  After Anand Karaj Sikhism does not enter the bedroom, so to speak.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Learner55 (Nov 5, 2011)

Thank you ji. 

So sex should only occur for the purpose of pro creation? Is this said in the Siri GGS ji?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 5, 2011)

> So sex should only occur for the purpose of pro creation?


_Veer ji I did not say that.  The Sikh Reht Maryada guides us on that._



> Is this said in the Siri GGS ji?


_Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a cookbook/codebook of rules and regulations.  It helps you become in consonance with creation._

I suppose we all need a bit of time to rejig the right approach on what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji stands for and the right way to study what is contained therein.  Wisdom develops and flows there after.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Learner55 (Nov 5, 2011)

Thank you veer ji. 

I have thought about it, and talked with people I trust, and I am not going to engage in this act. 

Thank you again.


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## Archived_Member16 (Nov 5, 2011)

*Premarital Sex*

Chastity or continence, is emphasized in Sikhism, because in the human body lies the divine presence and as such, the body has to be kept clean and perfect. Those things which harm the body or cause sickness and disease have to be scrupulously avoided. Sex is to be limited to one’s wife/husband. Pre-marital or extra-marital sex is forbidden to a Sikh. We all should consider opposite gender older to us as our father/mother, equal to us as a brother/sister, and younger than us as a son/daughter. Sikh should never entertain evil thoughts in the company of women. Marriage is a sacrament and the purpose thereof is companionship and help on the spiritual path, rather than sexual enjoyment. The marriage ideal is summed up in the maxim: ‘one soul in two bodies.’ Fidelity to one’s married partner is the essence of continence. In order to avoid evil thoughts, one should keep away from obscene books, nasty plays/films.
The Guru says:

“0 Lust! You consign people to hell and to the cycle of transmigration, You cheat all minds, influence the three worlds and destroy all contemplation and culture; Your pleasure is momentary, you make one fickle and poor and punish the high and the low; I have overcome your fear by associating with saintly persons and taking shelter with God!” (AG, 1358)
*
source:* http://aboutsikhs.com/beginners-introduction/sex-sexuality/premarital-sex/

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*Anger & Lust - SIKH RELIGION- video* 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KkJbjdnwwIk#t=113s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KkJbjdnwwIk

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*Lust Control*

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਗਹਿਲੇ ਬਾਵਲੇ ਮਾਣਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਰਲੀਆਂ ॥੫੫॥
ray man gahilay baavlay maaneh ki-aa ralee-aaN. ||55||
O my thoughtless and insane mind, why are you indulging in pleasures? 
||55||(Sheikh Farid)


*LUST and ILLEGITIMATE SEX*

It is one of the greatest evils that tempts people away from God. It makes an individual weak-willed and unreliable. The normal sexual relationship of house-holders (a married couple) is not restricted in any way in Sikhism. But sex outside of marriage or sex forced against the will of ones partner is taboo, as it can cause unlimited sorrows. 

ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਕਾਮ ਗਹੇਲੀਏ ਕਿਆ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਾਹ ਲੁਡਾਇ ॥
sun sun kaam gahaylee-ay ki-aa chaleh baah ludaa-ay.
Listen, listen, Oh, soul-bride: you are overtaken by 
sexual desire-why do you walk like that, swinging your arms in joy? 
(Page 37, Line 18) Guru Amar Das)

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚਿਤਿ ॥
ahinis kaam vi-aapi-aa vanjaari-aa mitraa anDhulay naam na chit.
Day and night, you are engrossed in sexual desire, 
O my merchant friend, and your consciousness is blind to the Naam. 
(Guru Nanak Dev page 75 line 16)

ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥
uchhli-aa kaam kaal mat laagee ta-o aan sakat gal baaNDhi-aa. 
You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect 
is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. 
||2|| (Bhagat Baini page 93 line 7)

ਅਵਰ ਮਰਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਤੋਲੇ ਤਉ ਭਗ ਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਿਗੋਇਆ ॥੩॥
avar marat maa-i-aa man tolay ta-o bhag mukh janam vigo-i-aa. 
When others die, you measure your own wealth in your mind; 
you waste your life in the pleasures of the mouth and sexual organs. 
||3|| (Devotee Baini page 93 line 10)

Your eyebrows are like a bow, from which the arrows of lust are 
coming out and striking us like the dagger 
Dasam Granth Page 703, Line 1

*VIRGINITY*

The loss of virginity can be viewed as a milestone to be proud of or as a failure to be ashamed of (particularly if a lack of self control was involved), depending on cultural perceptions. these perceptions were heavily influenced by perceived gender roles, such that for a male the association was more often with pride and for a female the association was more often with shame. But today women feel pride about this not in western culture but in other countries too. 

In Sikhism, The sexual activity must occur only between married individuals(Unde Control) for purpose of child. Before marriage it is said to be sin, as it is a pat of kaam(lust or sexual desire). If a girl/boy looses his virginity before marriage because to satisfy her/his needs then this is sin for both. This comes under sexual desire i.e kam(one of vices). If virginity looses through masturbation then it is also a sin as your thinkings must be wrong at that time. Virginity is important aspect and everyone must take care of it before marriage.

ਜਾਂ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਤਾ ਚਾਉ ਵੀਵਾਹੀ ਤਾਂ ਮਾਮਲੇ ॥
jaaN ku-aaree taa chaa-o veevaahee taaN maamlay
When she is a virgin, she is full of desire; but when she is married,  then her troubles begin.

ਫਰੀਦਾ  ਏਹੋ  ਪਛੋਤਾਉ  ਵਤਿ  ਕੁਆਰੀ  ਨ  ਥੀਐ  ॥੬੩॥
fareedaa ayho pachhotaa-o vat ku-aaree na thee-ai. ||63||
Fareed, she has this one regret, that she cannot be a virgin again. ||63||
(Page 1381, Line 5/6 Sheikh Farid)

*ABOUT PURITY OF VIRGINITY*

ਖਿੰਥਾ  ਕਾਲੁ  ਕੁਆਰੀ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ਡੰਡਾ  ਪਰਤੀਤਿ  ॥
khinthaa kaal ku-aaree kaa-i-aa jugat dandaa parteet.
Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of
virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick. 
Guru Nanak Dev(Page 6 Line 16)
*
source:* http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Lust_Control


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 6, 2011)

Soul_jyot said:


> *Premarital Sex*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Here Guru sahib is advising yogies the technique of merging or to be in consoance with your creator is to keep ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ means to keep their mind pure is the technique instead of applying ash to their body. It has got nothing to do with physical body virginity. 
Regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## Learner55 (Nov 6, 2011)

japjisahib04 said:


> Here Guru sahib is advising yogies the technique of merging or to be in consoance with your creator is to keep ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ means to keep their mind pure is the technique instead of applying ash to their body. It has got nothing to do with physical body virginity.
> Regards
> Mohinder Singh Sahni



Interesting. 

So, does the GGS Ji say anything about sex?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 6, 2011)

Souljyot ji some comment,


			
				Souljyot said:
			
		

> In Sikhism, The sexual activity must occur only  _between married individuals(Unde Control) for purpose of child. _Before  marriage it is said to be sin, as it is a pat of kaam(lust or sexual  desire). If a girl/boy looses his virginity before marriage because to  satisfy her/his needs then _this is sin _for both. This comes under sexual  desire i.e kam(one of vices). _If virginity looses through masturbation  then it is also a sin as your thinkings must be wrong at that time._  Virginity is important aspect and everyone must take care of it before  marriage.


I very humbly and strongly disagree with the tone and dictates in the above.

Let us remember that in Sikhism,


SIN is not a recognized concept
There is no concept of a SIN free life
In Sikhism the so called five thieves (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankar/Lust, Anger, Ego, Attachment, Pride) are not classified as one more wrong than another.  Now show me a Sikh who has eliminated all and never exercises any one of these at least once a day, I will kiss his/her feet.  If one were to classify any transgression in any of these as a sin, all of us would be so laden with sins on our back that living will not be possible.

For a list of people with voluntary honest expression, who don't have total control of one or more of the above five (including Kam/Lust) so called transgressors (but classified as Sinners per Souljyot's jis post), see the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/37375-scale-most-severe-vice-affects-you.html

None of the sins are so wrong that you create a guilt feeling for life.  This sin approach is the mechanism of controlling people and is extremely foreign no Sikhism for a reason.  Sikhism does not classify Sikhs as sinners.  Sikhism does not let the manipulators manage or exploit Sikhs because they have so called sinned.  This is exploited by many a bad parchariks/Sant/Babeys.  A very sad thing in the name of Sikhism.

We are in-charge of managing (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankar/Lust, Anger, Ego, Attachment, Pride) and no body has a right to judge other than one self.  Of course we want to continue improve and find balance, any help sought and help given is OK.

We all need to talk with honesty and less of double speak so that the younger generation listens and feels free to ask.

Any comments or corrections appreciated.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Learner55 veer ji my answer I repeat to the following,





> Interesting.
> 
> So, does the GGS Ji say anything about sex?


.  Nope.

But I recognize that you may be asking others more than me.  It is a transgression of Kam/Lust and it is a personal decision that you should make in terms of benefit, gain or loss.  There is no Sin.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 6, 2011)

From Gurbani we can learn that our MUN or Mind should always be in a state of Sex with Naamu.The pleasure of Wordly sex is for a fraction of moments whereas Sex with Naamu can be a permanent  and most sought state of mind .

Prakash.S.bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 6, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> From Gurbani we can learn that our MUN or Mind should always be in a state of Sex with Naamu.The pleasure of Wordly sex is for a fraction of moments whereas Sex with Naamu can be a permanent  and most sought state of mind .
> 
> Prakash.S.bagga



If one were to give oneself to Naam completely, how can one live as a householder as well?, if one is constantly comparing one with the other, Naam will always win, I do not think Sikhi is about complete submission to Naam, rather to live in the world and live and enjoy it, as well as in Naam


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 6, 2011)

HARRY HALLER Ji,
Although I agree with your views but the beauty of Gurbani is that it s messages are never bottleneck  in wordly affairs but there is great significance of the state where ones Mind or Mun is always primarily focused on Naamu along woth your wordly affairs going on.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 6, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji I am little confused based on your two posts in this thread and perhaps you can clarify.

I understand that a grammatical relationship between us and the creator may be feminine and masculine respectively.  I don't believe that simply translates into a sexual connotation.  Just as a relationship between a female cat and yourself/myself/Harry Haller ji is not sex, just one is a female and the other(s) being male.

I excerpt below from your posts.

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> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37533-sikhism-and-sex.html#post156104
> our MUN or Mind should always be in *a state of Sex with Naamu*.


And the second below. 


> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37533-sikhism-and-sex-2.html#post156106
> Mind or Mun is *always primarily focused on Naamu*


I understand your second post but the first I consider wrong interpretation.  I do believe that there cannot be conflict in Gurbani so both cannot be right.  Primarily focused on *Naamu /ਨਾਮੁ* does not translate into sex.

Appreciate your or others comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:  I feel we are going little off-topic too, but that is not for me to decide.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 6, 2011)

> However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is


 
Veera Aslong as your intentions are honourable then I don't see a problem in it , when I was a young man I never asked anyones permission,_apart from hers ofcourse!_


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 6, 2011)

If I were single, I would drink a glass of milk instead.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 6, 2011)

> I would drink a glass of milk instead.


 
Veer Ji I would drink a glass of milk _aswell .But seriously;_

The Code of conduct was written and was influenced by the culture and values of the Punjab,most girls abstain because of their family values ,not because it says so in the SRM.In a village all the girls are your sisters, so you would be a fool to mess with a girl who has so many brothers.Also it was an expectation of the day and even today that girls should remain virgins until married,perhaps this was in the minds of those who drafted the SRM ,as they could not have included a practice that would conflict with the values of the day.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 6, 2011)

in my opinion its *GLUTTONY*..that is discouraged...gluttony of food..sex..pleasures of wealth..etc etc are ALL actively discouraged as anyone sunk in these cannot have time for the spiritual development or householders life !!
Great Empires like Rome fell due to gluttony...Great devtas like Shiv Brahma etc also fell due to gluttony....
Gurbani advises and ENCOURAGES..SEHAJ..."everything within LIMITS"..sort of lifestyle..little sleep..little food..little of everything...within LIMITS....

Look at Nature...it sets the LIMITS (for Animals)...food limited by HUNGER...SEX limited by breeding season hormones...BUT for HUMANS..its our MIND that is supposed to set the self imposed LIMITS...eat too much and you need anti-gastric pills surgery  and liposuction...etc etc...abortions and all that....due to over the limit behavior...Once MAN descends below these LIMITS..he becomes animal status...KARTOOT PASSU KI..MANUS ZAAT..a human doing animal acts...


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## ohhcuppycakee (Nov 6, 2011)

Hey, you're the same guy from RF. xD


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## Admin (Nov 6, 2011)

ohhcuppycakee said:


> Hey, you're the same guy from RF. xD


Gurfateh Ji, 

Please take gossiping to private messaging. Off-topic posts are usually removed without notice. Thanks for adhering.

Regards

Aman


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji I would drink a glass of milk _aswell .But seriously;_
> 
> The Code of conduct was written and was influenced by the culture and values of the Punjab,most girls abstain because of their family values ,not because it says so in the SRM.In a village all the girls are your sisters, so you would be a fool to mess with a girl who has so many brothers.Also it was an expectation of the day and even today that girls should remain virgins until married,perhaps this was in the minds of those who drafted the SRM ,as they could not have included a practice that would conflict with the values of the day.



Sp ji,

Guru Fateh.

Yes, seriously. It is not about the SRM but about the message of value system given to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. It is not about the women being your sisters as you claim because they have many brothers who may beat you up. That is not a Sikh mentality nor a Sikh value either but a tribal one.

There is a role of husband and wife in Sikhi. Premarital sex is not the thing that the Sikhi values teach or promote in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Tejwant Singh

PS: As you claim to be the adherent of  *Veritas,* I am still expecting an apology from you to Spnadmin ji and also clarifications about your false accusations  towards me below. Otherwise, one is actually the adherent of *Falsitas*.

 Quote:
 <table width="" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              The Musketeers and the twenty always stick together,so must  Moderators  and Administrators,I would expect no less and it is no  without honour,                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
1. What made you think or conclude that I am a Moderator or an Administrator or is it one more part of your imagination?

  Quote:
 <table width="" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              you did mention *hypocrisy* and myself in the same sentence and I'm a firm believer in reciprocity                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
2. Where did I accuse you of the above?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/judaism/37398-ask-a-rabbi-anything-6.html


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## Harry Haller (Nov 7, 2011)

I agree with Gyaniji, there are pleasures, and then there are needs, and then there are addictions, addictions is a fancy way of saying gluttony


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera Aslong as your intentions are honourable then I don't see a problem in it , when I was a young man I never asked anyones permission,_apart from hers ofcourse!_



Sp ji,

Guru fateh.

Would you be kind enough to elaborate what do you mean by having honourable intentions about engaging in a premarital sex? The lady is someone's daughter and sister.

Would you also consider the intentions to be honourble of the other person, if the lady happens to be your sister or daughter and you come to know that she is having premarital sex with him, and perhaps she is also underage?

Tejwant Singh.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 7, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> If I were single, I would drink a glass of milk instead.


 
Tejwantji, 

My father would say exactly the same, I am curious, would you be drinking that glass of milk in peace, or out of a sense of denial?

many thanks


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 7, 2011)

> Would you be kind enough to elaborate what do you mean by having honourable intentions about engaging in a premarital sex? The lady is someone's daughter and sister.


 
Veer ji If she is someones wife then that would be more relevant morally,perhaps he was talking about a western girl and and she is not tarnished in the eyes of her society then her dignity is not affected.He should not use her as a means to an ends and respect her freedom.If she in herself does not want to abstain and only does so out of fear of her family or society, then she is just conforming to a rule imposed on her ,much more value lies in her acting under rules she imposes on herself.

As for an apology it also has more value if it has been offered freely and has not been coerced,notwithstanding I understand Admin and Moderators are human and on reflection taking one side in a discourse is not a defence of an individual,although anyone reading the post would have seen that it was a very personal view and should not have been posted in the guise of Admin.As for the accusation, I agree it was not gentlemanly of me.


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## findingmyway (Nov 7, 2011)

I would like to bring some focus back to this thread. Here are some questions to contemplate:
1) Why the hurry? Why not wait until you are ready to get married to the right person?
2) No form of contraceptive is 100% effective. If the result is a child would you be ready? How would you deal with the situation? Would you be able to do the best for the child?
3) If you do end up changing partners and marrying someone else, how would you feel about their past? How would they feel about yours? Can you really say the bond you have as as special as it would be had you been patient?
4) Why do you feel you cannot wait? Is that society's pressure/peer pressure that makes you feel as if you are missing out? Waiting may not be a result of old culture, not waiting may be a result of the new culture we are in!!


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## Harry Haller (Nov 7, 2011)

The following answers are honest answers and do not reflect my current state of mind:-

1. Because its all I thought about at 17, maybe it was the media, maybe it made me feel more of a man, maybe it was the thought that the impending arranged marriage meant that I had a limited time to experience the world , and also there seemed no problem for boys that were not virgins to get married. 

2. 3 close scares, 2 abortions, at the time, it was a case of being lucky, what worried me more was infection, having said that, numbers wise, I managed to get into the early hundreds, so it is possible that there are some little Harry's out there, if the situation had arisen at the time, my parents would have killed me, but for most of my twenties, I remained completely at the mercy of my lust. 

3. Now this is an interesting one, I have no regrets, my past enables me to find the thought of another woman quite boring, pointless even,. I do not look at porn, I do not think of other women, my wife also has a history, although not as extensive as mine, there are times when 'ghosts of the past' do rear their ugly heads, but they are more emotional than sexual issues, the question here is do I wish I had only slept with my wife? that answer would have to be 'NO', as attraction to other partners is an issue that has not arisen in 7 years of marriage. The way I look at it, it took me well over a hundred women to find the right one. 

4. If my understanding of sikhism at 17 had been similar to my understanding now, I would have definately waited, I would have had that arranged marriage (which I never had), I would have had kids, mum and dad would have had their grandchildren, I would be part of a huge family of cousins, uncles, aunties, weddings etc, I would be a normal sikh sardar. But it does not work like that, all the sikh men I know of my age are mostly stuck in Maya, they are married, but they go with *****s, they have a secret life, and a sikhi life, I was shocked to find that on my last trip to India, and having a knack for delving and digging deeper than most, I realised that most marriages were a sham, most wives were treated quite poorly, the dowry system is still in place, the arguments about quantities of dowry still go on, most sikh ceremonies are ritualistic and without any note given to the message or the information being shared, just the food and booze afterwards, 

Sure, I have led a wicked and selfish life, but I would rather be where I am now, with the path ahead of me. 

Of course I could have married young, given myself to my wife, and also found sikhi, but a part of me feels that would be have been unlikely, it is only so much exposure to all the thieves that has made me determined to find something more

I am starting to view the sexually active (outside of marriage) as weak willed lemmings, now when I think of the model of man that I could admire, it is the traditional saint soldier fighting wrong, embracing philosophy that is in line with sikhi, being strong both in will and in body, a giant of goodness that cannot be swayed by something as trivial as sex, if I were to meet me aged 27 now, I would pity me


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 7, 2011)

Veer ji _Bit risky_ to sleep with one hundred women before marriage but you have to say thats pretty good going,although I don't mean to encourage the chap.What is contentious in this matter is what value you put to premarital sex and how does it impact upon Sikhi Precepts?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 7, 2011)

veerji, 

its different for me, there are two values here, the value one has for oneself, and the value one ascribes to family values, my wife is an orphan, so has no family to care who she marries, mine are just happy I have settled down, I would imagine the family value is the one that most twenty year olds are worried about, rare at that age is the one that even knows their own values on this subject, certainly from a male point of view. 

As I said, if I knew then, what I know now, things would be different, I would have seen chastity and discipline as greater values than quanitities and variety


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## findingmyway (Nov 7, 2011)

harry haller said:


> 4. If my understanding of sikhism at 17 had been similar to my understanding now, I would have definately waited, I would have had that arranged marriage (which I never had), I would have had kids, mum and dad would have had their grandchildren, I would be part of a huge family of cousins, uncles, aunties, weddings etc, I would be a normal sikh sardar. But it does not work like that, all the sikh men I know of my age are mostly stuck in Maya, they are married, but they go with *****s, they have a secret life, and a sikhi life, I was shocked to find that on my last trip to India, and having a knack for delving and digging deeper than most, I realised that most marriages were a sham, most wives were treated quite poorly, the dowry system is still in place, the arguments about quantities of dowry still go on, most sikh ceremonies are ritualistic and without any note given to the message or the information being shared, just the food and booze afterwards,



Harry ji, Thank you for sharing your experiences. However, this thread is not about your past but about guidance for other youngsters. Let us not confuse arranged marriages with either Sikhi or premarital relations. There is absolutely no connection between them. I do not understand the point you are making in the above paragraph? Are you trying to say these things wouldn't happen if people slept around? The behaviours you describe are wrong but have nothing to do with the topic in hand. They reflect the difficulties people have in living in accordance to Sikh principles, they do not reflect whether sex before marriage is right or wrong. We must be very careful in what we are telling vulnerable minds! I think point 2 in your posts demonstrates perfectly why sex before marrige is completely irresponsible and not in line with Sikhi ideals.

_The question is it wrong is the incorrect question. Lets think of it another way. What is right about sex before marriage? How does it fit in with our ideals? How does it fit in with the meaning represented by a kacchera? Is the act compatible with Sikh philosophy? Can you imagine the Guru's or any of our shaheeds behaving this way? Would you accept it of an amritdhari singh? If not, even if you are not at that stage, should you not be aiming to behave like them too? If not moving in that direction and having awareness of it (whether you achieve in the short or long term), can we really say we are on the path? By making excuses or saying that it is normal, are we encouraging others (often youngsters) in the situation to come toward Sikhi or move away? Are we really thinking about the consequences or focussing merely on personal gratification?_

These are just some points to ponder........


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## Harry Haller (Nov 7, 2011)

Learner55 said:


> WJKK WJKF,
> 
> I am a 22 year old sardar,  with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others.
> 
> ...



I answered Jasleenji's question first, when I should really have answered yours Learner55ji first as quite rightly Jasleenji has pointed out that my contribution to this thread is quite negative from the point of view of someone young like yourself, 

What does sex do, well each time you have sex, you lose part of yourself, you give some of your spirit away, yes, the body is always eager beforehand, but afterwards, you go through feelings of guilt, shame, disgust, repulsion. You go through a cycle of getting home as fast as you can and scrubbing yourself clean, every spot, every blemish, every rash causes you to lie in bed at night worried sick, you convince yourself that this was the last time, but it happens time and time again, and the same cycle of lust, disgust, shame, the number of women burns in your head, after a while it does not matter any more, the respect that you once had for yourself fades, it is replaced with the knowledge that you are the dirtiest and the lowest of the low, you find it difficult even to shake the hand of a Sardar, because you do not want him to catch anything from you, you develop a smell, a smell of dirt, that only you can smell, the disgust and the fear affects your relationship with your family, your mother and father treat you with pride, but you know who you are, you know the life you are living, you constantly think if people knew who you really were, they would not even make conversation with you, you end up alone, you cry a lot, you drink a lot to blot out the disgust you have for yourself, you look at young married sikh couples with envy, innocence, the smell of purity, you realise just how bad things have become when you end up with a knife to your throat by an angry husband, oh the shame, the drive home, the tears, the people you let down the most are your parents, as you cannot be honest with them, the world laughs and smiles, the world in all its innocence, babies, dogs, nice clean houses, no, they are not for you, yours is the stench of your lust, and the constant cycle of pleasure and disgust, and then as you lie in your hospital bed, being told, you are probably going to die, as your lifestyle has weakened your strong singh body, you cry, and you regret, and you scream out loud, why didn't anyone tell me all this


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 7, 2011)

Harry veer ji thanks for your post.  I will shake your hand and hug you in spite of all you described about in your past. mundahug





harry haller said:


> I answered Jasleenji's question first, when I should really have answered yours Learner55ji first as quite rightly Jasleenji has pointed out that my contribution to this thread is quite negative from the point of view of someone young like yourself


Harry veer ji did you ever think about becoming a politician with a comment like above.  I wish I could learn such tact and wisdom.

Back to the topic, let us put facts on the table here perhaps with a glass of milk and cookies.

*Facts are**:*

1.  There is no code or prohibition against sex per se in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji before or after marriage.


Why so!  Folks it is not      a book of codes or laws and bylaws.  It is wisdom and a teacher.
  2.  So then we look at the Sikh Reht Maryada.  I excerpt below a specific item that talks about sex.

*Under Article XVIII**:*

   e. _When a girl becomes marriageable_, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.
    f. Marriage _may not be preceded by engagement ceremony_. But if an engagement  ceremony is sought to he held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after  offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a _steel bangle_ and _some  sweets may be tendered to the boy_.
*
Under Article XVIII**:* 
  3.  _ Cohabiting_ with a person other than _one's spouse_; 



> *Cohabitation* usually refers to an arrangement whereby two people decide to live together on a long-term or permanent basis in an emotionally and/or sexually intimate relationship. The term is most frequently applied to couples who are not married.


So question posed needs to be focused as posted by Learner55 ji,



> WHY it is considered "wrong” ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others poorly - _all are against Sikhi_, because they do do harm to either the user or others.


Using and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom, there is no code or edict against pre-Marital sex neither I expected any.  I continue to emphasize it is not a code book or a cook book of ready made answers.

  Sikh Reht Maryada only states sex as or cohabitation out of “Anand Karaj”.  Even by any stretch of the imagination, pre-marital sex is not cohabitation or “Marriage” as no “Anand Karaj” has taken place.  Hence Sikh Reht Maryada does not rule against pre-marital sex.

So under worst of circumstances it falls under “Kaam/Lust”.  Kaam can be a thought, a touch, a glance, a kiss, a brush on the subway or a bus, a dream, and so on.  You commit no sin as there are no sins in Sikhism.  You don’t want Kaam to go out of control.  If one can do that, one is as good as if not the better than the next person.

  Control or management of Kaam/lust is an individual responsibility.  The more we encourage others to recognize this, the better help we are providing.  There is no one here at spn (or you can stone me in the village square) who had no lustful thoughts over time.  You had a thought once, it is with you for ever in conscious or sub-conscious.

  We should refrain from making rules on the go as one thing leads to another till the whole purpose or approach of our help becomes a sham.

  “Fools who wrangle over Kaam!”

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 7, 2011)

Veer ji Don't be too hard on yourself I guess what you did was a _bit of sharing others ,_I meant sharing with others!They lusted after you too I hope, so it's just a mutual exchange.I would not shake your hand though as that much honesty deserves a hug. 
Veer Ji Ambarsaria I agree that was a lesson in tact and diplomacy from Harry,but to your analysis even if it had been in the Code of Conduct it would have needed amending eventually in my view.The body is easy to make yogi , mann nu yogi karna is much harder.

I would recommend getting married to the young man if that does not kill your lust nothing will!


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Tejwantji,
> 
> My father would say exactly the same, I am curious, would you be drinking that glass of milk in peace, or out of a sense of denial?
> 
> many thanks



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am sure your father used that in a metaphorical sense as I did. It just means restraint and the most difficult part is when the hormones due to the certain age are tearing one's seams out-pun intended- and the other partner, in this case a woman is willing.

Gurbani teaches us morality and wrongs and rights, especially at those moments when we are most vulnerable.

Temptation is a normal thing and I had  many but I dropped the ladies at their doors and left. They and their kids come and visit me even today from the UK, Portugal, Italy, Spain, Brasil, Austraila, Argentina and Uruguay. We are all very good friends. Some are even grandmas.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 7, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post.  That shows you travelled unless all came to see you in USA.  Nothing like meeting people from all different backgrounds and traveling as it in itself is educational.  I think, it goes without saying that Tejwant Singh ji and Harry Haller ji were some kind of intelligent and handsome dudes in years past!  My father used to say to encourage me to marry, "Your market value keeps dropping after certain age".

_*How can anyone ever forget their first love*_ :blushh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xt6L02Kuoq0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EuDqNew2K4

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Nov 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry veer ji thanks for your post.  I will shake your hand and hug you in spite of all you described about in your past. mundahug
> Harry veer ji did you ever think about becoming a politician with a comment like above.  I wish I could learn such tact and wisdom.
> 
> Back to the topic, let us put facts on the table here perhaps with a glass of milk and cookies.
> ...



Ambarsaria ji, are STD's and unwanted pregnancies not negative effects on the body? Some STD's have long term and devastating effects on several parts of the body. I have patients who have gone permanently blind from an STD. The SGGS is not a rule book but it does give us a moral compass to make our own decisions. Are you saying risking pregnancy before commitment is a moral and responsible way to behave? I truly don't understand why it is so hard to wait until a person is ready for commitment?

I don't think the decision should be governed about whether guilt and sin as these are not what Sikhi relies on. As a Sikh our behaviour should be governed by the RIGHT thing to do so once I again I ask not why it is wrong but why it is right?

Once again, I would like to know whether it is in line with the symbolism of the kachhera? We were given the kachhera by Guru Gobind Singh Ji for chastity so is sex before marriage compatible with this?

Harry ji wrote this great line in another thread, I hope he doesn't mind me using it here:


> most humans waste this gift of reason by following sensual desires and  succumbing to the flesh, rather than using it tempered by wisdom and  grace.


Is sex before firm commitment not just giving in to our animal instincts??
:interestedkudi:


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> *Facts are**:*
> 
> 1.  There is no code or prohibition against sex per se in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji before or after marriage.
> 
> ...



You are right about that, but SGGS, our only Guru is not about do's and don'ts but will's and will nots. 1429 pages of SGGS are filled with this and they give us the tools how we can manouver our  mann-mind towards being productive in this world from all aspects. Hence, the permission or prohibition of premarital sex is irrelevant the way this beautiful poetry teaches us morality. It depends on us if we adhere to that.



> 2.  So then we look at the Sikh Reht Maryada.  I excerpt below a specific item that talks about sex.
> 
> *Under Article XVIII**:*
> 
> ...



SRM is written and haphazardly put together by a few without giving it a deeper thought and I wrote about it many years ago that it has to be updated with the modern times so the dogmas inserted in it should be taken out and the tools of pragmatism should be added in. But, sadly due to the division in the Panth and lack of Gurmat practices by the rule makers themselves makes it difficult. Case in point is the bigamy of Jathedar of Takhat Patna Sahib.



> So question posed needs to be focused as posted by Learner55 ji,



The question posted by Learner55 can only have any relevance and significance provided he understands the foundation of morality laid by our Gurus in SGGS. He must remind himself that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. If he is born a Sikh but does not practice Sikhi as per the moral values of SGGS our only Guru, then he is free to do anything because SGGS means nothing to him but an idol worshipping. I hope I am wrong.



> Using and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom, there is no code or edict against pre-Marital sex neither I expected any.  I continue to emphasize it is not a code book or a cook book of ready made answers.



Ambarsaria ji, I am afraid, you are contradicting yourself in your above post. You are right about "SGGS in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom". So, the question arises what kind of wisdom does our Guru teaches us? And, I am sure you are aware that the first and foremost is to cultivate the highest possible moral compass and live by it. 

Our own Sikh history is the best proof of this moral compass of the highest level. Our brave Sikhs spared many Hindu and Muslim women and girls from the hands of the Muslim fiends where they were raped mercilessly and brought back to their parents.

Before the holocaust of 1984 agaisnt the Sikhs, I am sure you are very well aware that both Muslim and Hindu families urged their daughters to look for a Sikh driver of  3-wheeler or a car taxi.

Sikhs were and still keep these high moral standards, thanks to the  moral compass laid by our visionary Gurus. One more case in point is the  Sikh regiments working for the UN. Many regiments from other countries were accused of rapes except the Sikhs and they have had the most dangerous task in hand which is to secure the borders between Lebanon and Israel. During the war some years ago, they helped the both sides equally.

  So, it is not a question of premarital sex but our moral compass also teaches us how to avoid adultery and rapes and do good.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 7, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post.

My comments for consideration below.  Let me know if I should correct or  amend the post sometimes the tones can be wrong and I have been guilty  of that.



> SRM is written and haphazardly put together by a few without giving it a deeper thought and I wrote about it many years ago that it has to be updated with the modern times so the dogmas inserted in it should be taken out and the tools of pragmatism should be added in. But, sadly due to the division in the Panth and lack of Gurmat practices by the rule makers themselves makes it difficult. Case in point is the bigamy of Jathedar of Takhat Patna Sahib.


 _Tejwant Singh ji I hear you very clearly but it is spn policy to accept the Sikh Reht Maryada as it exists and not how we want it to be.  Of course there are ways of making suggestions but doing so in every  thread will be considered not complying with TOS at spn.  I  for sure have few suggestions too on Sikh Reht Maryada.  I hope you paid notice to some of the underlying I used  in my quoting of SRM.  For example the bridegroom can be offered a  bangle and sweets.peacesign
_


> So question posed needs   to be focused as posted by Learner55 ji, <table style="width: 0in;" class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="0"> <tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt inset; padding: 0.75pt;">
> </td></tr></tbody> </table> The question posted by Learner55 can only have any relevance and significance provided he understands the foundation of morality laid by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He must remind himself that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. If he is born a Sikh but does not practice Sikhi as per the moral values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru, then he is free to do anything because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji means nothing to him but an idol worshipping. I hope I am wrong.


 _Why are we such harsh with others while we are perhaps as guilty in making mistakes in our execution of Sikhism.  I point no fingers but posts here attest to the fact that even Sikhs make mistakes but that is all these are.  Is it huge mistake to have protected pre-marital sex between consenting adults, I don’t think so._
 <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width:0in;mso-cellspacing:0in" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="0"> <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes"><td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
</td></tr></tbody> </table> 





> Ambarsaria ji, I am afraid, you are contradicting yourself in your above post. You are right about "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom". So, the question arises what kind of wisdom does our Guru teaches us? And, I am sure you are aware that the first and foremost is to cultivate the highest possible moral compass and live by it.


 _Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your comment.  In absolute sense you are right but in relative sense you are not.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s knew that no one can be perfect.  Mistakes and transgressions are part of life.  At worst pre-marital sex is a transgression, it is not end of the world in terms corrupting the person.  Remembering mind before matter, the thread starter has already transgressed in his mind to think of sex per the strictest of definitions if one were to impose this logic.  Let us see how it allows us to provide help to SIkhs who seek such help while 99.999+% would not do so._



> So, it is not a question of premarital sex but our moral compass also teaches us how to avoid adultery and rapes and do good.


 _Of course it is a question of pre-marital sex as that is what the poster asked.  He did not ask for moral compass as no one addressed how he linked “marital sex” to other anti-Sikh and bad behaviors and most have just talked about sex, sin and disease._

   Sex is a beautiful thing between people who care for each other.  We are quite different from animals who use it for just pro-creation and have found other uses for the creator’s gift.

   Sat Sri Akal.[/FONT]


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## findingmyway (Nov 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Sex is a beautiful thing between people who care for each other.  We are quite different from animals who use it for just pro-creation and have found other uses for the creator’s gift.



Agreed but within the confines of marriage. If it occurs without marriage then we are no different to animals. If there is no commitment then what does that bond actually mean?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 7, 2011)

findingmyway ji comments on your comment from following post.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37533-sikhism-and-sex-4.html#post156171

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> Ambarsaria ji, are STD's and unwanted pregnancies not negative effects on the body?


 _Are mental anguish and suppression of good feelings of closeness with someone as bad?  There is no suggestion in sex that one should not take appropriate precautions and be ready for any unforeseen consequences.  Sex by itself is not a disease or we won’t be here.  Neither is the suppositions true that Sikhism disagrees with the enjoyment of Sex.  We will become a branch of pure Catholicism if we were do such._

_Sikhism enables and very little is promulgated.  Let us not turn the clocks backwards.  Who wants a follower in Sikhism.  We are all leaders and self learners who seek help when they wish._



> Some STD's have long term and devastating effects on several parts of the body. I have patients who have gone permanently blind from an STD. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a rule book but it does give us a moral compass to make our own decisions. Are you saying risking pregnancy before commitment is a moral and responsible way to behave?


 _Wow!  Why scare people out of sex.  It even can be an exercise._



> I truly don't understand why it is so hard to wait until a person is ready for commitment?


 _Because we are all different.__  We can have Karodh/Lobh?Moh/Ahankar but somehow Kaam you have to save for marriage.  We definitely think differently that is why creation created us so._



> As a Sikh our behaviour should be governed by the RIGHT thing to do so once I again I ask not why it is wrong but why it is right?


 _I thought there are studies about the positive health effects of sex including the ability to renewing and sharing one’s love for each other. _



> Once again, I would like to know whether it is in line with the symbolism of the kachhera?


 _This is definitely news to me and I don't know who is teaching what to whom.  I am very sorry, but what Kachhera has to do with sex!_



> We were given the kachhera by Guru Gobind Singh Ji for chastity so is sex before marriage compatible with this?


 _It was given for modesty so that when dead Sikhs and Sikhnis were thrown into rivers that modesty still pervaded._[/FONT]
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width:0in;mso-cellspacing:0in" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="0">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   
</td></tr></tbody></table>_How does the above translate into abstinence before or after marriage.  Perhaps Harry ji can clarify it for all._


> Is sex before firm commitment not just giving in to our animal instincts??


_No more than thinking about it, acting on it like the other parts of the quintuplet Kaam/Karodh/Lobh/Moh/Ahankar._

Findingmyway ji, if anything is of personal bother please let me know.  I am trying to write as specifically as the comments.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Nov 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji, the issue is not about sex or no sex in life but whether sex prior to the commitment of marriage is moral so in that context many of your comments above do not apply. STDs are unlikely in a committed monogamous relationship and that is a fact. If there is no commitment and a child comes into the equation then there are many complications which are far more likely to have a negative impact on all concerned. This is not responsible behaviour. Kachhera is not just for modesty but also for moral behaviour. As Tejwant Veerji states, it is vitally important to have our moral compass in the right direction. Merely thinking about it doesn't create babies or cause disease so the ohysical and mental acts are not equivalent in this case! If you are ready to be so intimate with someone, why not commit to them?!

No personal bother but I truly don't understand your viewpoint as demonstrated with my points, many of which have remained unanswered. This goes to anyone who thinks sex before marriage is morally correct and acceptable as a Sikh. It baffles me!


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 7, 2011)

findingmyway ji I cannot define morals for others.  They have to do so through their understanding.  That is how I am.

So I have no answer to your above post which starts with,



> Ambarsaria ji, the issue is not about sex or no sex in life but whether_ sex prior to the commitment of marriage is moral _


I assume ever since mankind started, the institution of marriage or the morals surrounding it have lived.  It is also my understanding that going back in time there was more extra-marital sexual activity.

There was the same creator and same creation.  Just because some dust became 7 billion people now makes no difference to the consonance that always existed and always will and the creator.  That is Sikhism to me.  Our Guru ji help us understand that and develop ability to decide, pick and act. 

Sorry, but we don't agree here and I will not keep going back and forth with yourself till I have something new to comment on or add here.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> My comments for consideration below.  Let me know if I should correct or  amend the post sometimes the tones can be wrong and I have been guilty  of that.


We are all here to interact and at times our emotions take the better of us. We are all guilty of that but it is part of the learning process. So, nothing to worry about it.



> Tejwant Singh ji I hear you very clearly but it is spn policy to accept the Sikh Reht Maryada as it exists and not how we want it to be.  Of course there are ways of making suggestions but doing so in every  thread will be considered not complying with TOS at spn.  I  for sure have few suggestions too on Sikh Reht Maryada.  I hope you paid notice to some of the underlying I used  in my quoting of SRM.  For example the bridegroom can be offered a  bangle and sweets.peacesign


I do not think if the Adminstrators mind if you suggest something that should be mended in SRM. In my view, the readers are reminded of SRM by the Administrators  so we do not make rules out of the blue which may be anti Gurmat.

You write:


> So question posed needs   to be focused as posted by Learner55 ji,


<table style="width: 36px; height: 25px;" class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt inset; padding: 0.75pt;">
</td></tr></tbody></table>



> My response to the above:The question posted by Learner55 can only have any relevance and  significance provided he understands the foundation of morality laid by  our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He must remind himself that one  is not born a Sikh but becomes one. If he is born a Sikh but does not  practice Sikhi as per the moral values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our  only Guru, then he is free to do anything because Sri Guru Granth Sahib  Ji means nothing to him but an idol worshipping. I hope I am wrong.





> _ Your response:Why are we  such harsh with others while we are perhaps as guilty in making mistakes  in our execution of Sikhism.  I point no fingers but posts here attest  to the fact that even Sikhs make mistakes but that is all these are._


Ambarsaria ji. Now you are doing nothing but playing Dr. Ruth (I have no idea if you have someone like that in Canada or in The UK, Please Google her if you do not know who she is. BTW, she is a famous sexologist in the US with a sexy accent:redturban. To be honest, I have no idea what your point is above. Ofcourse Sikhs make mistakes, hence the name Sikh. However, pre-marital sex is not a mistake but a deliberate action of immorality if one follows the teachings of Gurbani. In my view, the question by Learner 55 has nothing to do with Sikhi values but his own desire to look like a Sikh and behave on the contrary to its core values. You and I know how easy it is to look like one.



> _Is  it huge mistake to have protected pre-marital sex between consenting  adults, I don’t think so_


From Sikhi viewpoint, I am afraid it is. But outside Sikhi,who cares? Let me ask you a blunt question. Would you encourage your own daughter or sister who are single to do this in the name of Sikhi?
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> My post:
> Ambarsaria ji, I am afraid, you are contradicting yourself in your  above post. You are right about "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the concept  of a Guru , teacher and wisdom". So, the question arises what kind of  wisdom does our Guru teaches us? And, I am sure you are aware that the  first and foremost is to cultivate the highest possible moral compass  and live by it.


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> _Your response:
> Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your comment.  In absolute sense you are right but in relative sense you are not.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s knew that no one can be perfect.  Mistakes and transgressions are part of life.  At worst pre-marital sex is a transgression, it is not end of the world in terms corrupting the person.  Remembering mind before matter, the thread starter has already transgressed in his mind to think of sex per the strictest of definitions if one were to impose this logic.  Let us see how it allows us to provide help to SIkhs who seek such help while 99.999+% would not do so._


Ambarsaria ji, no one is talking about mistakes which are part and parcel of life. Of course no one is perfect but that is not the point here. What do you understand by the word "Transgression"? Could you please share with us if you see it differently than what the dictionary states?

*[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]trans·gres·sion[/SIZE][/FONT]* 

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[SIZE=-1]*NOUN:*[/SIZE]


 A violation of a law, command, or duty: _"The same transgressions should be visited with equal severity on both man and woman"_ _(Elizabeth Cady Stanton)._ See Synonyms at breach.
 The exceeding of due bounds or limits.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/transgression

Is breaking of a moral law that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us dandy with you? Please do not take this as an offence. I am just trying to understand your thought process in this case.

  <table width="" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                               My post:
So, it is not a question of premarital sex but our moral compass  also teaches us how to avoid adultery and rapes and do good.                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 


> _Your response:
> Of course it  is a question of pre-marital sex as that is what the poster asked.  He  did not ask for moral compass as no one addressed how he linked “marital  sex” to other anti-Sikh and bad behaviors and most have just talked  about sex, sin and disease._


I beg to differ with you. Learner55 did ask a moral question. Read his question again. He said that intoxicants are forbidden but nothing is said about pre-marital sex. He wants to have fun with pre-marital sex in the name of Sikhi. No one is stopping Learner55 to have fun. Learner can have as much fun as much he wants but Sikhi has nothing to do with it. Sikhi has no such slogan based on pre-marital sex and Ambarasaria ji, I am no one nor in any position to tell you all this. Deep down you know all this.



> Sex is a beautiful thing between people who care for each other.  We  are quite different from animals who use it for just pro-creation and  have found other uses for the creator’s gift.


Of-course it is. "The Anand Karaj" between the two animals in the guise of  mating calls is a divine act.

But, in our Human-Animal kingdom we enjoy this beauty in the confines of our Sikhi moral laws, otherwise, neither you nor I would call our parents as such if they were not married before conceiving us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 7, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post.  Couple of comments as follows,



> _Is  it huge mistake to have protected pre-marital sex between consenting  adults, I don’t think so_    From  Sikhi viewpoint, I am afraid it is. But outside Sikhi,who cares? Let me  ask you a blunt question. Would you encourage _your own daughter or  sister who are single to do this in the name of Sikhi?_


_Tejwant Singh ji I believe that we don't dictate our Sikhi or try to interpret other people's Sikhi._ _Why would anyone want to do such stuff in the name of Sikhi.  They do it as they are and if others want to interpret in many different ways, that is not a problem of the doer.  Yes it hurts to see a Sikh persona appear to be doing wrong but that has to be tolerated in self respect for all.  If someone asks for help, sure.  If someone appears to be open to help, of course._
_
Encourage your sister or daughter is not a question.  If they ask sure, I would answer as honestly as I can.  I believe that is the only way to do so.  You cannot throw a moral code at them and expect them to carry it just because you flagged it.  You can also not throw a cultural code at them as the trappings it has for both good and bad._

I am sorry to say that I do not see such moral codes (pre-marital sex, etc.) as the level of direct addressing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and would love to be made aware even though I am not in a situation to benefit/suffer or be wary of pre-marital sex.

I also feel that we are sending very mixed messages and this was embedded in the thread starter's post by comparison to other vices.

Why suddenly Kaaam/Lust a subset of the five thieves suddenly takes centre stage other than due to cultural heritage.  I try to share any understanding I have and have no mission to make people more promiscuous or such.  Always trying to learn too.

Do we have a book of moral codes that young people can grasp on to?   SRM is the only one I know as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a stopping book (meaning don't do this or don't do that) but a living book that continually makes you better in-spite of whole life of errors.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS: * Couple of house keeping items.

1.  Pretty familiar with Dr. Ruth.
2.  I used the word "transgression" as a deviation from a preferred core path which for me in these matters is balance management and control of Kaam/Krodh/Lobh/Moh/Ahankaar.
3.  I sincerely believe that we are on slippery slope when we start creating or interpreting moral codes versus encouraging people to understand Sikhism through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  There is perhaps virtue to reviewing if there is a specific Shabad that deals with this subject like the one for "Fools who wrangle over flesh .... ".


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. I have no idea where this interaction is taking us. I just searched "women" and "Sex". The following came up. You can study each Shabad and share the moral compass  about the subject according to Sikhi. I am sorry, I can not put all the Shabads here in full but I am just copying and pasting the whole pages.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

<table width="100%" cellspacing="25"><tbody><tr><td>Page 176, Line 2
ਮਾਣੈ ਰੰਗ ਭੋਗ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
माणै रंग भोग बहु नारी ॥
Māṇai rang bẖog baho nārī.
he may revel in pleasures, and enjoy many *women *-
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 179, Line 15
ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਸੇਜ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
चोआ चंदनु सेज सुंदरि नारी ॥
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan sej sunḏar nārī.
sandalwood oil, and beautiful *women *in bed,
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 223, Line 4
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥
नारी पुरख सबाई लोइ ॥३॥
Nārī purakẖ sabā▫ī lo▫e. ||3||
Among all the *women *and the men, His Light is shining. ||3||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 225, Line 19
ਕਾਮੁ ਚਿਤੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥
कामु चितै कामणि हितकारी ॥
Kām cẖiṯai kāmaṇ hiṯkārī.
The lover of *women *is obsessed with sex.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 246, Line 1
ਇਸਤਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਜੀਉ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
इसतरी पुरख कामि विआपे जीउ राम नाम की बिधि नही जाणी ॥
Isṯarī purakẖ kām vi▫āpe jī▫o rām nām kī biḏẖ nahī jāṇī.
Men and *women *are obsessed with sex; they do not know the Way of the Lord's Name.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 251, Line 19
ਰਾਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕੁਸਮ ਰੰਗ ਬਿਖ ਸੋਰ ॥
राचि रहे बनिता बिनोद कुसम रंग बिख सोर ॥
Rācẖ rahe baniṯā binoḏ kusam rang bikẖ sor.
Man remains engrossed in *women *and playful pleasures; the tumult of his passion is like the dye of the safflower, which fades away all too soon.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 304, Line 13
ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥
जोरा दा आखिआ पुरख कमावदे से अपवित अमेध खला ॥
Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.
Those men who act according to the orders of *women *are impure, filthy and foolish.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 304, Line 13
ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥
कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥
Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.
Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their *women *and walk accordingly.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 304, Line 14
ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਭਿ ਖਿਲਾ ॥
जोरा पुरख सभि आपि उपाइअनु हरि खेल सभि खिला ॥
Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.
He Himself created all *women *and men; the Lord Himself plays every play.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 417, Line 10
ਚਉਕੇ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਿੰਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਕਿਉ ਟਿਕੇ ਕਢਹਿ ਨਾਇ ॥
चउके विणु हिंदवाणीआ किउ टिके कढहि नाइ ॥
Cẖa▫uke viṇ hinḏvāṇī▫ā ki▫o tike kadẖėh nā▫e.
Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu *women *bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads?
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 609, Line 9
ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਲੋਕ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਨਬੰਧੇਹੀ ॥
पुत्र कलत्र लोक ग्रिह बनिता माइआ सनबंधेही ॥
Puṯar kalṯar lok garih baniṯā mā▫i▫ā sanbanḏẖehī.
Children, spouses, men and *women *in one's household, are all bound by Maya.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 627, Line 19
ਅਨਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
अनद करहि नर नारी ॥
Anaḏ karahi nar nārī.
The men and *women *celebrate.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 632, Line 18
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸਿਉ ਰਚਿਓ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਿਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
पर धन पर दारा सिउ रचिओ बिरथा जनमु सिरावै ॥१॥
Par ḏẖan par ḏārā si▫o racẖi▫o birthā janam sirāvai. ||1||
Engrossed in the wealth and *women *of others, his life passes away uselessly. ||1||
*Guru Teg Bahadur*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 654, Line 8
ਬੇਦ ਪੜੇ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੂਏ ਰੂਪੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
बेद पड़े पड़ि पंडित मूए रूपु देखि देखि नारी ॥३॥
Beḏ paṛe paṛ pandiṯ mū▫e rūp ḏekẖ ḏekẖ nārī. ||3||
The Pandits die, reading and reciting the Vedas; *women *die, gazing at their own beauty. ||3||
*Devotee Kabir*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 693, Line 18
ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥
नाचंती गोपी जंना ॥
Nācẖanṯī gopī jannā.
*Women *and men both dance.
*Devotee Namdev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 722, Line 19
ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀਆ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕਸਟ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
मुसलमानीआ पड़हि कतेबा कसट महि करहि खुदाइ वे लालो ॥
Musalmānī▫ā paṛėh kaṯebā kasat mėh karahi kẖuḏā▫e ve lālo.
The Muslim *women *read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 722, Line 19
ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਹਿਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਭੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
जाति सनाती होरि हिदवाणीआ एहि भी लेखै लाइ वे लालो ॥
Jāṯ sanāṯī hor hiḏvāṇī▫ā ehi bẖī lekẖai lā▫e ve lālo.
The Hindu *women *of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 798, Line 3
ਮੰਗਲੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਏ ॥
मंगलु नारी गावहि आए ॥
Mangal nārī gāvahi ā▫e.
The *women *come and sing the songs of joy.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 973, Line 14
ਅਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਗਜ ਦਾਨ ਸਿਹਜਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਭੂਮਿ ਦਾਨ ਐਸੋ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤਹਿ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
असु दान गज दान सिहजा नारी भूमि दान ऐसो दानु नित नितहि कीजै ॥
As ḏān gaj ḏān sihjā nārī bẖūm ḏān aiso ḏān niṯ niṯėh kījai.
Someone may give away horses and elephants, or *women *on their beds, or land; he may give such gifts over and over again.
*Devotee Namdev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 983, Line 3
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਭ ਨਾਰੀ ਸਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
नारी पुरखु पुरखु सभ नारी सभु एको पुरखु मुरारे ॥
Nārī purakẖ purakẖ sabẖ nārī sabẖ eko purakẖ murāre.
*Women *and men, all the men and women, all came from the One Primal Lord God.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1164, Line 15
ਕਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾਮਨੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
कामी पुरख कामनी पिआरी ॥
Kāmī purakẖ kāmnī pi▫ārī.
and the sexually promiscuous man who loves *women *and sex,
*Devotee Namdev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1243, Line 1
ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥
रंना होईआ बोधीआ पुरस होए सईआद ॥
Rannā ho▫ī▫ā boḏẖī▫ā puras ho▫e sa▫ī▫āḏ.
*Women *have become advisors, and men have become hunters.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1255, Line 1
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
पर धन पर नारी रतु निंदा बिखु खाई दुखु पाइआ ॥
Par ḏẖan par nārī raṯ ninḏā bikẖ kẖā▫ī ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā.
Caught in slander and attachment to the wealth and *women *of others, they eat poison and suffer in pain.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1290, Line 1
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥
इसत्री पुरखै जां निसि मेला ओथै मंधु कमाही ॥
Isṯarī purkẖai jāŉ nis melā othai manḏẖ kamāhī.
But when men and *women *meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1362, Line 6
ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰਾਵਣਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਸੇਈ ਤਾ ਲਾਜੀਅਹਿ ॥
पर त्रिअ रावणि जाहि सेई ता लाजीअहि ॥
Par ṯari▫a rāvaṇ jāhi se▫ī ṯā lājī▫ah.
Those men who go out to enjoy other men's *women *shall suffer in shame.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1387, Line 5
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਅਪਵਾਦ ਨਾਰਿ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਯਹ ਮੀਠੀ ਜੀਅ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਿਤਾਨੀ ॥
पर धन पर अपवाद नारि निंदा यह मीठी जीअ माहि हितानी ॥
Par ḏẖan par apvāḏ nār ninḏā yėh mīṯẖī jī▫a māhi hiṯānī.
The wealth and *women *of others, arguments and slander, are sweet and dear to my soul.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1412, Line 13
ਸਤੀ ਰੰਨੀ ਘਰੇ ਸਿਆਪਾ ਰੋਵਨਿ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੰਮੀ ॥
सती रंनी घरे सिआपा रोवनि कूड़ी कमी ॥
Saṯī rannī gẖare si▫āpā rovan kūṛī kammī.
All the *women *of his home shout and cry over useless things.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr></tbody></table>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table width="100%" cellspacing="25"><tbody><tr><td>Page 13, Line 8
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari▫ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda he.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and* sex*ual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 24, Line 16
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਤਨਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥
कामु क्रोधु तनि वसहि चंडाल ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ṯan vasėh cẖandāl.
Unfulfilled* sex*ual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 37, Line 18
ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਕਾਮ ਗਹੇਲੀਏ ਕਿਆ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਾਹ ਲੁਡਾਇ ॥
सुणि सुणि काम गहेलीए किआ चलहि बाह लुडाइ ॥
Suṇ suṇ kām gahelī▫e ki▫ā cẖalėh bāh ludā▫e.
Listen, listen, O soul-bride: you are overtaken by* sex*ual desire-why do you walk like that, swinging your arms in joy?
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 43, Line 8
ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸਮਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥
माइआ कामि विआपिआ समझै नाही गावारु ॥
Mā▫i▫ā kām vi▫āpi▫ā samjẖai nāhī gāvār.
Engrossed in Maya and* sex*ual desire, the fool does not understand.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 50, Line 7
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਦਿ ਬਿਆਪਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥
काम क्रोध मदि बिआपिआ फिरि फिरि जोनी पाइ ॥२॥
Kām kroḏẖ maḏ bi▫āpi▫ā fir fir jonī pā▫e. ||2||
Engrossed in the intoxication of* sex*ual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again. ||2||
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 51, Line 9
ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਮਾਤੇ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
कामि क्रोधि अहंकारि माते विआपिआ संसारु ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaŉkār māṯe vi▫āpi▫ā sansār.
The world is drunk, engrossed in* sex*ual desire, anger and egotism.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 58, Line 7
ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਨਿਰਮਲੇ ਤਜਿ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
सबदि रते से निरमले तजि काम क्रोधु अहंकारु ॥
Sabaḏ raṯe se nirmale ṯaj kām kroḏẖ ahaŉkār.
Those who are attuned to the Shabad are spotless and pure; they renounce* sex*ual desire, anger, selfishness and conceit.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 70, Line 12
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਲੋਭਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
कामि करोधि मोहि वसि कीआ किरपन लोभि पिआरु ॥
Kām karoḏẖ mohi vas kī▫ā kirpan lobẖ pi▫ār.
When you are under the power of* sex*ual desire, anger and worldly attachment, or a greedy miser in love with your wealth;
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 75, Line 16
ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚਿਤਿ ॥
अहिनिसि कामि विआपिआ वणजारिआ मित्रा अंधुले नामु न चिति ॥
Ahinis kām vi▫āpi▫ā vaṇjāri▫ā miṯrā anḏẖule nām na cẖiṯ.
Day and night, you are engrossed in* sex*ual desire, O my merchant friend, and your consciousness is blind to the Naam.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 81, Line 12
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਇਆਲ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਭੇਟਤ ਹਰੇ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮਾਰਿਆ ॥
सतिगुर दइआल किरपाल भेटत हरे कामु क्रोधु लोभु मारिआ ॥
Saṯgur ḏa▫i▫āl kirpāl bẖetaṯ hare kām kroḏẖ lobẖ māri▫ā.
Through the Kind and Compassionate True Guru, I have met the Lord; I have conquered* sex*ual desire, anger and greed.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 7
ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥
उछलिआ कामु काल मति लागी तउ आनि सकति गलि बांधिआ ॥२॥
Ucẖẖli▫ā kām kāl maṯ lāgī ṯa▫o ān sakaṯ gal bāŉḏẖi▫ā. ||2||
You are overflowing with* sex*ual desire, and your intellect is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. ||2||
*Devotee Baini*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 9
ਉਨਮਤ ਕਾਮਿ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਭੂਲੈ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥
उनमत कामि महा बिखु भूलै पापु पुंनु न पछानिआ ॥
Unmaṯ kām mahā bikẖ bẖūlai pāp punn na pacẖẖāni▫ā.
Drunk with* sex*ual desire and other great sins, you go astray, and do not distinguish between vice and virtue.
*Devotee Baini*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 10
ਅਵਰ ਮਰਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਤੋਲੇ ਤਉ ਭਗ ਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਿਗੋਇਆ ॥੩॥
अवर मरत माइआ मनु तोले तउ भग मुखि जनमु विगोइआ ॥३॥
Avar maraṯ mā▫i▫ā man ṯole ṯa▫o bẖag mukẖ janam vigo▫i▫ā. ||3||
When others die, you measure your own wealth in your mind; you waste your life in the pleasures of the mouth and* sex*ual organs. ||3||
*Devotee Baini*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 11
ਲੋਚਨ ਸ੍ਰਮਹਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਲ ਨਾਠੀ ਤਾ ਕਾਮੁ ਪਵਸਿ ਮਾਧਾਣੀ ॥
लोचन स्रमहि बुधि बल नाठी ता कामु पवसि माधाणी ॥
Locẖan sarmėh buḏẖ bal nāṯẖī ṯā kām pavas māḏẖāṇī.
Your eyes water, and your intellect and strength have left you; but still, your* sex*ual desire churns and drives you on.
*Devotee Baini*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 108, Line 7
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਗੁਰਿ ਕਾਟੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਆਸਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
कामु क्रोधु किलबिख गुरि काटे पूरन होई आसा जीउ ॥३॥
Kām kroḏẖ kilbikẖ gur kāte pūran ho▫ī āsā jī▫o. ||3||
The Guru has cut out the sinful mistakes of* sex*ual desire and anger, and my hopes have been fulfilled. ||3||
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 108, Line 18
ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸੰਤਨ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਪੀਠਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
हउ बलिहारी संतन तेरे जिनि कामु क्रोधु लोभु पीठा जीउ ॥३॥
Ha▫o balihārī sanṯan ṯere jin kām kroḏẖ lobẖ pīṯẖā jī▫o. ||3||
I am a sacrifice to Your Saints, who have crushed their* sex*ual desire, anger and greed. ||3||
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 122, Line 4
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਵਸਿ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥
इंद्री वसि सच संजमि जुगता ॥
Inḏrī vas sacẖ sanjam jugṯā.
They control their* sex*ual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 137, Line 18
ਛਿਵੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਜਾਤਿ ॥
छिवै कामु न पुछै जाति ॥
Cẖẖivai kām na pucẖẖai jāṯ.
sixth, in his* sex*ual desire, he does not respect social customs.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 141, Line 13
ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਤਜਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
परहरि काम क्रोधु झूठु निंदा तजि माइआ अहंकारु चुकावै ॥
Parhar kām kroḏẖ jẖūṯẖ ninḏā ṯaj mā▫i▫ā ahaŉkār cẖukẖāvai.
Renounce* sex*ual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake Maya and eliminate egotistical pride.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 141, Line 14
ਤਜਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਮਿਨੀ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਜੈ ਤਾ ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
तजि कामु कामिनी मोहु तजै ता अंजन माहि निरंजनु पावै ॥
Ŧaj kām kāminī moh ṯajai ṯā anjan māhi niranjan pāvai.
Renounce* sex*ual  desire and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then  shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 145, Line 16
ਚਲਣ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥
चलण सार न जाणनी कामु करोधु विसु वधाइआ ॥
Cẖalaṇ sār na jāṇnī kām karoḏẖ vis vaḏẖā▫i▫ā.
They do not recognize the ultimate reality, that we all must go; they continue to cultivate the poisons of* sex*ual desire and anger.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 153, Line 3
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਹਿ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
कामु क्रोधु माइआ महि चीतु ॥
Kām kroḏẖ mā▫i▫ā mėh cẖīṯ.
The conscious mind is engrossed in* sex*ual desire, anger and Maya.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 153, Line 5
ਜਿਹਵਾ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਏਕੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥
जिहवा इंद्री एकु सुआउ ॥
Jihvā inḏrī ek su▫ā▫o.
The tongue and the* sex* organs each seek to taste.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 171, Line 6
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari▫ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda he.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with* sex*ual desire and anger, which were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 178, Line 13
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਲਪਟਿਓ ਅਸਨੇਹ ॥
काम क्रोध लपटिओ असनेह ॥
Kām kroḏẖ lapti▫o asneh.
They are mired in* sex*ual desire, anger and attachment;
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 210, Line 6
ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਨੋ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੇ ॥
कामि क्रोधि लोभि मोहि मनु लीनो निरगुण के दातारे ॥
Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ mohi man līno nirguṇ ke ḏāṯāre.
My mind is engrossed in* sex*ual desire, anger, greed and attachment, O Giver to the unworthy.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 219, Line 5
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮੋਹ ਬਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਈ ॥
काम क्रोध मोह बसि प्रानी हरि मूरति बिसराई ॥
Kām kroḏẖ moh bas parānī har mūraṯ bisrā▫ī.
The mortal beings are held in the power of* sex*ual desire, anger and emotional attachment; they have forgotten the Lord, the Immortal Form.
*Guru Teg Bahadur*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 222, Line 4
ਕਾਮਿ ਬਿਰੂਧਉ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਠਾਇ ॥
कामि बिरूधउ रहै न ठाइ ॥
Kām birūḏẖa▫o rahai na ṯẖā▫e.
Engrossed in* sex*ual desire, it does not remain steady.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 223, Line 2
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
काम क्रोध अहंकार बिनासु ॥१॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaŉkār binās. ||1||
They are destroyed by* sex*ual desire, anger and egotism. ||1||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 224, Line 4
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਬਿਖੁ ਭੂਖ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
काम क्रोध बिखु भूख पिआसा ॥
Kām karoḏẖ bikẖ bẖūkẖ pi▫āsā.
by* sex*ual desire, anger, corruption, hunger and thirst.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table><tbody><tr><td valign="CENTER">Result Page:  *1* 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 </td><td valign="CENTER">  

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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 7, 2011)

It is easy to find shabads with correlated words in translations. But it takes time to understand each Shabad and reference of words.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for the Shabad word search post.  I don't think this is the most important topic on my mind right now.

I have something else on my mind that I am studying in Gurbani and will share if appropriate and suitable.  Nothing to do with sex :sippingcoffeemunda:
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

What wonderful reading, so many points of view, in my personal opinion, everyone is correct, 

Sikhism, again in my view, is not a hard and fast rule book of things you should and should not do, I think we will find the answer in the centre. 

There is one line of thought that believes that certain things are bad in excess, and that one thing will lead to another, and before you know it, we are responsible for blessing young people having sex outside of marriage

There is another line of thought that believes we are all intelligent human beings and WE are responsible for our decisions, not society, it is the balance between a nanny state and anarchy. Both are clearly not desirable for the continued development of a person, the nanny state brings control through fear and guilt, anarchy puts too much on an individual, rather like a lucid dream, some people need fear and guilt, some need others to make the decision for them, some will always make the right decision regardless of personal feelings, some will submit themselves to their thoughts without even thinking, so we are all of us different, and we all approach life in different ways. 

Now, lets us take religion out of this for a moment, as, having read Gyanijis post, and Ambersariaji's post, I would take the gluttony to be the issue, not the sex. 

Let us take a look at the question again, and I am really sorry Amanji, I promise I will learn how to do this properly very soon, 

_WJKK WJKF, 

I am a 22 year old sardar,  with a dari and phug. I have never drank or  smoked. The reason *I do not engage in these things, is because they are  harmful to the user and to others. *


However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not  engaged in  it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a)  done  smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession. 


*WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others   poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the   user or others. 
*
But what does sex do?


Thank you.
_
Note this young man does not say, I do not drink or do drugs or cut my hair because I am forbidden by sikhi, he says he does not do it because they harm the user or others, very well done for getting the message of sikhi, not to blindly follow without understanding, but to take actions because you have completely understood the message, being in consonance, so I would take it that this is quite an intelligent young man, who wants to know why sex is bad, who it affects, why should he not do it

I do not think the question actually has anything to do with sikhi, it is a young man following the ideals of sikhi asking whether premarital sex harms the user or others, if you are in a loving relationship with someone, you care for each other, your feelings are pure, and forgetting the social problems of young sikhs having sex for a moment, then there is nothing in my view wrong with that, if however you wish to go clubbing, internet dating, whoring, and end up in bed with someone you hardly know, and have no feelings for, other than basic animal lust, then , yes you can harm yourself and others, either through an STD, emotionally, unwanted pregnancy, or feelings of shame

The social factors bring into play many many more issues, the way your parents would feel, how it could affect your future marriage prospects, how it could affect not only your family but your own standing in the community, it is for you to make an informed decision to as to what path you wish to proceed down, what seeds you wish to plant, whether those seeds are being true to you, and to which part of you, you wish to push forward as the true you, if 'you' is a man in balance who feels he can have sex before marriage and still feel completely sikhi, no problem, if 'you' is a man who feels he would be more in consonance and more true to himself by waiting, no problem, I think this is a very individual issue, clearly by the many different views on the subject. 

However, we must be very careful of using fear and guilt as control, let us make the facts clear and hope the young make the correct decisions that will  subject them neither to a life of Gluttony, nor a life of abstinence and frustration


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## Chinu (Nov 8, 2011)

Learner55 said:


> WJKK WJKF,
> 
> I am a 22 year old sardar, with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others.


So.. you know this. 0 


> However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a) done smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession.
> WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the user or others.


How can you say that sex is not harmful ?
Not only pre-marital sex, but sex of any kind is harmful for spiritual devlopment and Age factor.


> But what does sex do?


Really... If you are intrested in your own spiritual progress, there are many books written on it, even in "GGS" you can see...

But if you are more intrested in sex than your spiritual progress -- than it is useless to talk on this topic...

One can only understand when he/she really want's to understand, 
For Example: There are number of people in this world who drink Alcohal, take Drugs, they even know that this is harmul for us, but even than, they do not want to listen anybody going against it -- and that because they are more intrested in Alcohal and drugs than their health.

Honestly... are you intrested in spiritual progress ? ---- ask your own Mind.0
If not... till than Sex is like God for you, your God is Sex... So how can you listen anybody going againt it.

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

Chinuji, 

The key here is moderation, that is what makes us householders and philosophers, an aversion to marital sex is just as bad as an attatchment to marital sex, When I think of a perfect Sikh man, I think of my father, he is as spirtual as he is wordly, he lives this life and enjoys it, as he basks in Naam and enjoys that, Sikhs were never meant to sit on mountains on lionskins, with a healthy covering of ash, they were meant to interact, to live, to learn and to spread the message through interaction with Creation


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

> Agreed but within the confines of marriage. If it occurs without marriage then we are no different to animals. If there is no commitment then what does that bond actually mean?


Way Ji Your reply implies that perhaps a fifith of the world are animals which is a bit harsh,(maybe it was like one of my off the cuff remarks.)
It does not sound immoral to me as many poeple are committed to eachother,live together but don't marry for a while ,and others marry and are seemingly not committed and get divorced.The problem is that India is sexually repressed and that creates a narrow view of morality._You can't really claim that it is immoral behaviour it is just amoral behaviour._


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

spji, 

What is a marriage? 

*Marriage (or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship. It is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged in a variety of ways, depending on the culture or subculture in which it is found. Such a union, often formalized via a wedding ceremony, may also be called matrimony.

* Although I refer to my wife and my marriage, neither is strictly true, she is my wife because I am commited to her and we are in a social union, my marriage took place the day we swore our love for each other and promised to be faithful to each other in mind and body, but that day took place on Brighton seafront 7 years ago, and the only witnesses were 3 seagulls and a hermit crab, one day I hope to have Anand Karaj, but till then, my understanding of the word marriage is the union I have with my wife

I do not believe in ritual, Anand Karaj , to me has to be understood and embraced by us both before we could consider aspiring to those heights,  but I digress


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

Harry that is my point and it's relevant to distinguish committed relationships are not always what we call marriages.
I think that Way ji is pointing out the risks _associated with promiscuity_ as premarital sex within a relationship (with one partner) would not usually lead to increased risk of STD's.


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## Chinu (Nov 8, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Chinuji,
> 
> The key here is moderation, that is what makes us householders and philosophers, an aversion to marital sex is just as bad as an attatchment to marital sex, When I think of a perfect Sikh man, I think of my father, he is as spirtual as he is wordly, he lives this life and enjoys it, as he basks in Naam and enjoys that, Sikhs were never meant to sit on mountains on lionskins, with a healthy covering of ash, they were meant to interact, to live, to learn and to spread the message through interaction with Creation


Harry ji... when i said ? That to get control over lust, one should escape into himalayas and all that 
Yes! "Moderation" itself is more than tuff exersise, But.. these days marital sex is being used as a daily playground of enjoying senseual pleasures, 

Like... from now one has got the license to play daily in this playground. 

Is this the work of Sikh? tell me...

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

Chinu said:


> Harry ji... when i said ? That to get control over lust, one should escape into himalayas and all that
> Yes! "Moderation" itself is more than tuff exersise, But.. these days marital sex is being used as a daily playground of enjoying senseual pleasures,
> 
> Like... from now one has got the license to play daily in this playground.
> ...



Chinuji

What goes on between a married sardar and his wife in the bedroom is, in my humble view, no concern to the Creator

I may be in breach by not having had Anand Karaj, but then that is between me and Creator

As for marital sex being used for enjoying sensual pleasures, this is exactly what I mean by mountains, there is nothing wrong with sex within marriage/union, to see marital sex as wrong is the sort of attitude that stop sikhs being householders, and stops sikhs being part of the world going on around them, enjoy sex within marriage, but do not become addicted to it, or let it become the be all and end all, 

Your attitude scares and worries me brother


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

Chinu said:
			
		

> Yes! "Moderation" itself is more than tuff exersise, But.. these days marital sex is being used as a daily playground of enjoying sensual pleasures,


 
If you think about the one who has engaged in premarital relations, he still has to control himself to a degree but one who abstains totally does not moderate himself ,as he just stays away from it altogether ,some may just fear losing their fragile grip on virtue.

I think we were meant to experience pleasure but still moderate ourselves and understand that these are lower pleasures and you are correct in saying moderation is tough.I too have met base individuals who take marriage just to be a free pass to the pleasure park.


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## Chinu (Nov 8, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Your attitude scares and worries me brother


0
Harry ji... for how long do you sit on meditation/simran daily?

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

spji, I would say personally 'different pleasures' rather than 'lower'

Chinuji, I never do either meditation or simran, although I think of ways to apply SGGS to my daily life constantly


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

> I never do either meditation or simran, although I think of ways to apply Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to my daily life constantly<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Veer ji Meditation and Simran are one if you contemplate what to do by applying our Guru's word then that is sort of _Medi-action or Simraction!_
_That is the Sikh way and I think it was Lord Krishna said the mind is the performer of action so there might not be much difference in sitting and doing._


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## Chinu (Nov 8, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Chinuji, I never do either meditation or simran,


That's why...


> although I think of ways to apply Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to my daily life constantly


Which one is more important from these two in the life of sikh ?

Simran.
To apply GGS into daily life.
I think this can be another good topic on this board, Right ? 0
Well my answer is: By applying GGS into daily life we can know that who is called as true sikh...

So just read the stanza: "Gur satgur kaa jo sikh akahee................"

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

done brother, see you there


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

I am also one but it is so easy to preach after the fact.  A simple song with pungent lyrics,

Preacher Song (Break The Vine)      - YouTube

Let us post some analyzed Gurbani translation and interpretations other Sikh specific guiding references.

I will try.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

Two Shabads below with appropriate Teeka and translations.

1.  Refers to the concepts of virginity as a metaphor
____________________________________________________________________
ਮੁੰਦਾ  ਸੰਤੋਖੁ  ਸਰਮੁ  ਪਤੁ  ਝੋਲੀ  ਧਿਆਨ  ਕੀ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਬਿਭੂਤਿ  ॥ 
मुंदा संतोखु सरमु पतु झोली धिआन की करहि बिभूति ॥ 
Munḏa sanṯokẖ saram paṯ jẖolī ḏẖi▫ān kī karahi bibẖūṯ. 
Make contentment your ear-rings, humility your begging bowl, and meditation the ashes you apply to your body. 
ਸੰਤੁਸ਼ਟਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾਂ, ਲਜਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਦਾ ਮੰਗਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਖੱਪਰ ਤੇ ਥੈਲਾ ਅਤੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਸੁਆਹ ਬਣਾ। 
ਮੁੰਦਾ = ਮੁੰਦਰਾਂ। ਸਰਮੁ = ਉੱਦਮ, ਮਿਹਨਤ। ਪਤੁ = ਪਾਤ੍ਰ ਖੱਪਰ।

(ਹੇ ਜੋਗੀ!) ਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਮੁੰਦਰਾਂ ਬਣਾਵੇ, ਮਿਹਨਤ ਨੂੰ ਖੱਪਰ ਤੇ ਝੋਲੀ, ਅਤੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਧਿਆਨ ਦੀ ਸੁਆਹ (ਪਿੰਡੇ ਤੇ ਮਲੇਂ), 

ਖਿੰਥਾ  ਕਾਲੁ  ਕੁਆਰੀ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ਡੰਡਾ  ਪਰਤੀਤਿ  ॥ 
खिंथा कालु कुआरी काइआ जुगति डंडा परतीति ॥ 
Kẖinthā kāl ku▫ārī kā▫i▫ā jugaṯ dandā parṯīṯ. 
Let the remembrance of  death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your  way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick. 
ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਖਿਆਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਖਫਨੀ, ਕੁਮਾਰੀ ਕੰਨਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਸਰੀਰ ਵਰਗੀ ਪਵਿੱਤ੍ਰਤਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਰਹੁ-ਰੀਤੀ ਅਤੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋਟਾ ਹੋਵੇ। 
ਖਿੰਥਾ = ਗੋਦੜੀ। ਕਾਲੁ =  ਮੌਤ। ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ = ਕੁਆਰਾ ਸਰੀਰ, ਵਿਸ਼ੇ-ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਸਰੀਰ, ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ  ਤੋਂ ਅਛੋਹ ਕਾਇਆਂ। ਜੁਗਤਿ = ਜੋਗ ਮੱਤ ਦੀ ਰਹਿਤ। ਪਰਤੀਤ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ, ਯਕੀਨ।

ਮੌਤ  (ਦਾ ਭਉ) ਤੇਰੀ ਗੋਦੜੀ ਹੋਵੇ, ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਾ ਕੇ ਰੱਖਣਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਜੋਗ  ਦੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਹੋਵੇ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਨੂੰ ਡੰਡਾ ਬਣਾਵੇਂ (ਤਾਂ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਕੰਧ ਟੁੱਟ ਸਕਦੀ  ਹੈ)। 

ਆਈ  ਪੰਥੀ  ਸਗਲ  ਜਮਾਤੀ  ਮਨਿ  ਜੀਤੈ  ਜਗੁ  ਜੀਤੁ  ॥ 
आई पंथी सगल जमाती मनि जीतै जगु जीतु ॥ 
Ā▫ī panthī sagal jamāṯī man jīṯai jag jīṯ. 
See the brotherhood of all mankind as the highest order of Yogis; conquer your own mind, and conquer the world. 
ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਭਾਈਚਾਰੇ ਨੂੰ ਯੋਗਾਮਤ ਦਾ ਸ਼ਰੋਮਣੀ ਭੇਖ ਬਣਾ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਦੇ ਜਿੱਤਣ ਨੂੰ ਜਗਤ ਦੀ ਜਿੱਤ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਰ। 
ਆਈ ਪੰਥੁ = ਜੋਗੀਆਂ ਦੇ ੧੨  ਫ਼ਿਰਕੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਸਬ ਤੋਂ ਉੱਚਾ 'ਆਈ ਪੰਥ' ਗਿਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪੰਥੀ = ਆਈ  ਪੰਥ ਵਾਲਾ, ਆਈ ਪੰਥ ਨਾਲ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਰੱਖਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਸਗਲ = ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵ। ਜਮਾਤੀ = ਇਕੋ ਹੀ  ਪਾਠਸ਼ਾਲਾ ਵਿਚ, ਇਕੋ ਹੀ ਸ਼੍ਰੇਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਵਾਲੇ, ਇੱਕ ਥਾਂ ਮਿਲ ਬੈਠਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਿੱਤਰ  ਸੱਜਣ। ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ = ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਜਿੱਤਿਆਂ, ਜੇ ਮਨ ਜਿੱਤਿਆ ਜਾਏ। (ਨੋਟ: ਇਹੋ ਜਿਹੇ ਵਾਕੰਸ਼  ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਵਿਚ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਵੇਂ: ਨਾਇ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਐ = ਜੇ  ਨਾਮ ਵਿਸਾਰ ਜਾਏ। ਨਾਇ ਮੰਨਿਐ = ਜੇ ਨਾਮ ਮੰਨ ਲਈਏ)।

ਜੋ  ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਾਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਸੱਜਣ ਮਿੱਤਰ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੈ (ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ) ਉਹੀ  ਆਈ ਪੰਥ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਨ ਜਿੱਤਿਆ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਹੀ ਜਿੱਤਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ  (ਭਾਵ, ਤਾਂ ਜਗਤ ਦੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਵਿਛੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ)। 

ਆਦੇਸੁ  ਤਿਸੈ  ਆਦੇਸੁ  ॥ 
आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥ 
Āḏes ṯisai āḏes. 
I bow to Him, I humbly bow. 
ਨਿਮਸਕਾਰ, ਮੇਰੀ ਨਿਮਸਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ। 
ਆਦੇਸੁ = ਪਰਣਾਮ। ਤਿਸੈ = ਉਸੇ ਹੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ।

(ਸੋ, ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਕੰਧ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ) ਕੇਵਲ ਉਸ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ) ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਣਾਮ ਕਰੋ, 

ਆਦਿ  ਅਨੀਲੁ  ਅਨਾਦਿ  ਅਨਾਹਤਿ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਵੇਸੁ  ॥੨੮॥ 
आदि अनीलु अनादि अनाहति जुगु जुगु एको वेसु ॥२८॥ 
Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||28|| 
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||28|| 
ਉਹ ਮੁਢਲਾ, ਪਵਿੱਤ, ਆਰੰਭ ਰਹਿਤ, ਅਵਿਨਾਸ਼ੀ ਅਤੇ ਸਮੂਹ ਯੁਗਾਂ ਅੰਦਰ ਉਸੇ ਇਕੋ ਲਿਬਾਸ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ। 
ਆਦਿ = ਮੁੱਢ ਤੋਂ। ਅਨੀਲੁ  ਕਲੰਕ ਰਹਿਤ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰ, ਸੁੱਧ ਸਰੂਪ। ਅਨਾਦਿ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਮੁੱਢ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਅਨਾਹਤਿ =  (ਅਨ-ਆਹਤਿ), ਆਹਤਿ = ਨਾਸ, ਖੈ, (ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਤੂ 'ਹਨ' ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ  ਹੈ 'ਮਾਰਨਾ, ਨਾਸ ਕਰਨਾ') ਅਨਾਹਤਿ = ਨਾਸ ਰਹਿਤ, ਇਕ-ਰਸ। ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ = ਹਰੇਕ ਜੁਗ  ਵਿਚ, ਸਦਾ। ਵੇਸੁ = ਰੂਪ।

ਜੋ (ਸਭ ਦਾ) ਮੁੱਢ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਸੁੱਧ ਸਰੂਪ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਮੁੱਢ ਨਹੀਂ (ਲੱਭ ਸਕਦਾ), ਜੋ ਨਾਸ-ਰਹਿਤ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਜੋ ਸਦਾ ਹੀ ਇਕੋ ਜਿਹਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨੮॥
_______________________________________________________


2.  Farid ji's bani in SGGS




ਜਾਂ  ਕੁਆਰੀ  ਤਾ  ਚਾਉ  ਵੀਵਾਹੀ  ਤਾਂ  ਮਾਮਲੇ  ॥ 
जां कुआरी ता चाउ वीवाही तां मामले ॥ 
Jāŉ ku▫ārī ṯā cẖā▫o vīvāhī ṯāŉ māmle. 
When she is a virgin, she is full of desire; but when she is married, then her troubles begin. 
ਜਦ ਕੁੜੀ ਅਣ-ਵਿਆਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਤਦ ਉਹ ਚਾਅ ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਜਦ ਉਹ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਤਦ ਉਸਦੇ ਦੁਖੜੇ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਵੀਵਾਹੀ = ਵਿਆਹੀ, ਜਦੋਂ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਗਈ। ਮਾਮਲੇ = ਕਜ਼ੀਏ, ਜੰਜਾਲ।

ਜਦੋਂ (ਲੜਕੀ) ਕੁਆਰੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਦੋਂ (ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਆਹ ਦਾ) ਚਾਉ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਪਰ ਜਦੋਂ) ਵਿਆਹੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਜੰਜਾਲ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 

ਫਰੀਦਾ  ਏਹੋ  ਪਛੋਤਾਉ  ਵਤਿ  ਕੁਆਰੀ  ਨ  ਥੀਐ  ॥੬੩॥ 
फरीदा एहो पछोताउ वति कुआरी न थीऐ ॥६३॥ 
Farīḏā eho pacẖẖoṯā▫o vaṯ ku▫ārī na thī▫ai. ||63|| 
Fareed, she has this one regret, that she cannot be a virgin again. ||63|| 
ਫਰੀਦ ਫਿਰ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਝੁਰੇਵਾਂ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਿ ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਕੇ ਅਣ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। 
ਪਛੋਤਾਉ = ਪਛੁਤਾਵਾ। ਵਤਿ = ਫਿਰ, ਮੁੜ ਕੇ। ਨ ਥੀਐ = ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਜਾਂ = ਜਦੋਂ। ਤਾਂ = ਤਦੋਂ ॥੬੩॥

ਹੇ ਫਰੀਦ! (ਉਸ ਵੇਲੇ) ਇਹੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਵਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਹ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਚਾਉ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ) ॥੬੩॥




Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

In the following Guru Nanak Dev ji state how we are all of flesh and how various relationships of flesh are part of living.  Guru ji does not go about saying this is bad, don't do this, this is immoral, etc.  Guru ji basically says that dwelling on matters of the flesh is kind of superfluous and better is building understanding of the creator.

The understanding of creator is built on top of all that and not in spite of all that.

Sat Sri Akal.
___________________________________________________________________________

ਸਲੋਕ  ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ 
सलोक मः १ ॥ 
Salok mėhlā 1. 
Shalok, First Mehl: 
ਸਲੋਕ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ। 
xxx

XXX 

ਪਹਿਲਾਂ  ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਨਿੰਮਿਆ  ਮਾਸੈ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਵਾਸੁ  ॥ 
पहिलां मासहु निमिआ मासै अंदरि वासु ॥ 
Pahilāŉ māsahu nimmi▫ā māsai anḏar vās. 
First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh. 
ਆਦਮੀ ਪਹਿਲ-ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਮਾਸ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਿਪਜਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਮੁੜ ਮਾਸ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੀ ਵਸਦਾ ਹੈ। 
ਨਿੰਮਿਆ-ਨਿਰਮਿਆ, ਬਣਿਆ, ਮੁਢ ਬੱਝਾ।

ਸਭ  ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਮਾਸ (ਭਾਵ, ਪਿਤਾ ਦੇ ਵੀਰਜ) ਤੋਂ ਹੀ (ਜੀਵ ਦੀ ਹਸਤੀ ਦਾ) ਮੁੱਢ ਬੱਝਦਾ  ਹੈ, (ਫਿਰ) ਮਾਸ (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਪੇਟ) ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਵਸੇਬਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ; 

ਜੀਉ  ਪਾਇ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਮੁਹਿ  ਮਿਲਿਆ  ਹਡੁ  ਚੰਮੁ  ਤਨੁ  ਮਾਸੁ  ॥ 
जीउ पाइ मासु मुहि मिलिआ हडु चमु तनु मासु ॥ 
Jī▫o pā▫e mās muhi mili▫ā had cẖamm ṯan mās. 
When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh. 
ਜਦ ਉਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਜਾਨ ਪੈਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਸ ਦਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਹੱਡੀਆਂ, ਖਲ ਤੇ ਦੇਹ ਮਾਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਬਣੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ। 
ਜੀਉ ਪਾਇ = ਜਿੰਦ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰ ਕੇ, ਭਾਵ, ਜਦੋਂ ਜਾਨ ਪਈ।

ਜਦੋਂ  (ਪੁਤਲੇ ਵਿਚ) ਜਾਨ ਪੈਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਵੀ (ਜੀਭ-ਰੂਪ) ਮਾਸ ਮੂੰਹ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ (ਇਸ ਦੇ  ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਹੀ ਘਾੜਤ) ਹੱਡ ਚੰਮ ਸਰੀਰ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਮਾਸ (ਹੀ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ)। 

ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਬਾਹਰਿ  ਕਢਿਆ  ਮੰਮਾ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਗਿਰਾਸੁ  ॥ 
मासहु बाहरि कढिआ ममा मासु गिरासु ॥ 
Māsahu bāhar kadẖi▫ā mammā mās girās. 
He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast. 
ਜਦ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਕੁੱਖ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਕਢਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਸ ਦੇ ਥਣਾ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਦੁੱਧ ਦੀ ਘੁੱਟ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ। 
ਗਿਰਾਸੁ = ਗਿਰਾਹੀ, ਖ਼ੁਰਾਕ।

ਜਦੋਂ (ਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਪੇਟ-ਰੂਪ) ਮਾਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਭੇਜਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਮੰਮਾ (-ਰੂਪ) ਮਾਸ ਖ਼ੁਰਾਕ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ; 

ਮੁਹੁ  ਮਾਸੈ  ਕਾ  ਜੀਭ  ਮਾਸੈ  ਕੀ  ਮਾਸੈ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਸਾਸੁ  ॥ 
मुहु मासै का जीभ मासै की मासै अंदरि सासु ॥ 
Muhu māsai kā jībẖ māsai kī māsai anḏar sās. 
His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh. 
ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਮਾਸ ਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੀ ਜੀਭ੍ਹਾ ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਅਤੇ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਸਾਹ ਮਾਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੈ। 
ਸਾਸੁ = ਸਾਹ।

ਇਸ ਦਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਭੀ ਮਾਸ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੀਭ ਭੀ ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਹੈ, ਮਾਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਹ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। 

ਵਡਾ  ਹੋਆ  ਵੀਆਹਿਆ  ਘਰਿ  ਲੈ  ਆਇਆ  ਮਾਸੁ  ॥ 
वडा होआ वीआहिआ घरि लै आइआ मासु ॥ 
vadā ho▫ā vī▫āhi▫ā gẖar lai ā▫i▫ā mās. 
He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home. 
ਜਦ ਉਹ ਵਡੇਰਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਵਿਆਹ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਉਹ ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਵਹੁਟੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੈ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। 
xxx

ਜਦੋਂ ਜੁਆਨ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਵਿਆਹਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਭੀ (ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ-ਰੂਪ) ਮਾਸ ਹੀ ਘਰ ਲੈ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ; 

ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਹੀ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਊਪਜੈ  ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਸਭੋ  ਸਾਕੁ  ॥ 
मासहु ही मासु ऊपजै मासहु सभो साकु ॥ 
Māsahu hī mās ūpjai māsahu sabẖo sāk. 
Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh. 
ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਮਾਸ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਆਦਮੀ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਸਨਬੰਧੀ ਮਾਸ ਦੇ ਹੀ ਬਣੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ। 
xxx

(ਫਿਰ) ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ (ਬੱਚਾ-ਰੂਪ) ਮਾਸ ਜੰਮਦਾ ਹੈ; (ਸੋ, ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਸਾਰਾ) ਸਾਕ-ਸੰਬੰਧ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਹੈ। 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ  ਮਿਲਿਐ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਬੁਝੀਐ  ਤਾਂ  ਕੋ  ਆਵੈ  ਰਾਸਿ  ॥ 
सतिगुरि मिलिऐ हुकमु बुझीऐ तां को आवै रासि ॥ 
Saṯgur mili▫ai hukam bujẖī▫ai ṯāŉ ko āvai rās. 
When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then he comes to be reformed. 
ਜਦ ਬੰਦਾ ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਾਈਂ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਕੇਵਲ ਤਦ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਸੁਧਾਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। 
ਕੋ = ਕੋਈ (ਭਾਵ,) ਜੀਵ। ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ = ਰਾਸ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸਿਰੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸਫਲ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।

(ਮਾਸ ਖਾਣ ਜਾਂ ਨਾਹ ਖਾਣ ਦਾ ਨਿਰਨਾ ਸਮਝਣ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ) ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲ ਪਏ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਸਮਝੀਏ ਤਾਂ ਜੀਵ (ਦਾ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਣਾ) ਨੇਪਰੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ, 

ਆਪਿ  ਛੁਟੇ  ਨਹ  ਛੂਟੀਐ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਬਚਨਿ  ਬਿਣਾਸੁ  ॥੧॥ 
आपि छुटे नह छूटीऐ नानक बचनि बिणासु ॥१॥ 
Āp cẖẖute nah cẖẖūtī▫ai Nānak bacẖan biṇās. ||1|| 
Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O Nanak, through empty words, one is ruined. ||1|| 
ਆਪਣੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਰਿਹਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ। ਨਿਰੀਆਂ ਪੁਰੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਰਾਹੀਂ, ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਬੰਦਾ ਬਰਬਾਦ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। 
ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟੇ = ਆਪਣੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਬਚਿਆਂ। ਬਚਨਿ = ਬਚਨ ਨਾਲ, (ਇਸ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੀ) ਚਰਚਾ ਨਾਲ। ਬਿਣਾਸੁ = ਹਾਨੀ ॥੧॥

(ਨਹੀਂ  ਤਾਂ ਜੀਵ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਸ ਨਾਲ ਜੰਮਣ ਤੋਂ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਮਰਨ ਤਕ ਇਤਨਾ ਡੂੰਘਾ ਵਾਸਤਾ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ)  ਆਪਣੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦੀ; ਤੇ, ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਸ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੀ)  ਚਰਚਾ ਨਾਲ (ਨਿਰੀ) ਹਾਨੀ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ॥੧॥


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 8, 2011)

harry haller said:


> spji,
> 
> What is a marriage?
> 
> ...



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh,

Well said.

However, what you have said is exactly what our Guru Sahib says in the the Four Lavans.

Here it is, go through them and trust your innerself rather than the literal translations.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=773

There is also an old thread here on SPN about Lavan which you will enjoy.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/6681-lava-in-guru-granth-sahib.html

Enjoy this journey.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> 
> ...



I have read both threads and they were very interesting, it appears to me that those who have been married in sikh temples, and those who have been present, have truly been part of something beautiful, but most have been completely unaware of just how beautiful. It would truly be a shame not to have full understanding of just what is being sung and said and understand exactly what Anand Karaj means, on the one hand, I am sad that my current union is 'unblessed' in this manner, on the other hand, I am glad I will  wait until we can both appreciate the majestic meaning that these words give to a 'ceremony' and thats what makes it beyond ritual.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 8, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I have read both threads and they were very interesting, it appears to me that those who have been married in sikh temples, and those who have been present, have truly been part of something beautiful, but most have been completely unaware of just how beautiful. It would truly be a shame not to have full understanding of just what is being sung and said and understand exactly what Anand Karaj means, on the one hand, I am sad that my current union is 'unblessed' in this manner, on the other hand, I am glad I will  wait until we can both appreciate the majestic meaning that these words give to a 'ceremony' and thats what makes it beyond ritual.



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all, never think that your current union is 'unblessed' because the way you share your relationship with your wife in the forum, shows a different story. A blessed marriage is one of understanding and love, not of rancor and disdain like in the Zee TV Dramas.

Secondly, on this very forum, I suggested one of the changes to SRM should be that the couple before the Anand Karaj should be given some kind of course for a week, where they understand the meaning of the Lavan  and marriage so can handle the trials and tribulations that come with the nice clothes and Bhangra. They should be given the tools to handle when arguments or misunderstanding occur which would not be rare. But for that to happen we need educated people running the Gurdwaras.

If I were to remarry my wife of 23 years, I would make sure she walks on my side rather than behind me as Sikhi is for equality and I want that to happen during every Anand Karaj.

As you are in the computer business and understand very well what kind of havoc a power surge can create in the computers. When that happens in our married life, the only surge protector is SGGS, our only Guru.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Learner55 (Jan 12, 2012)

harry haller said:


> What wonderful reading, so many points of view, in my personal opinion, everyone is correct,
> 
> Sikhism, again in my view, is not a hard and fast rule book of things you should and should not do, I think we will find the answer in the centre.
> 
> ...



This was a very helpful post, thank you, Ji. 

Months later, I am still on the fence. 

Any more insight from others?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 12, 2012)

Brother

Sometimes I wish I had spent more time on the fence, sitting on the fence is better than making a wrong decision, sit on the fence, watch the world, learn, you seem intelligent enough to know when the time is right, no one else call tell when that time is, maturity is trusting in yourself,


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 12, 2012)

Youth and Having Relationships - YouTube


some "Christian" but good resources on the topic (I will add more as I find them):
Sexual Healing - YouTube
http://www.everystudent.com/features/search.html
http://www.alivewithlove.com/beauty/girlswait.html


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 12, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Brother
> 
> Sometimes I wish I had spent more time on the fence, sitting on the fence is better than making a wrong decision, sit on the fence, watch the world, learn, you seem intelligent enough to know when the time is right, no one else call tell when that time is, maturity is trusting in yourself,


 
harry ji,

such a simple and short post but lovely. im sitting on the fence at the moment, about a lot of things in life... watching the world, just too much going on.


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## BaljinderS (Jan 12, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Souljyot ji some comment,
> 
> I very humbly and strongly disagree with the tone and dictates in the above.
> 
> ...




Very well said Ji!!!

dispelling the myths that the so called sant/baabe have created in order to control people's minds!!! so they can tell them whatever they want so people keep on coming back to them for more


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