# Simran And Sikhi (Karminder Singh Dhillon)



## Dr Karminder Singh

SIMRAN ਸਿਮਰਨ is a Sanskrit word that translates as remembrance. Its Punjabi equivalents are ਯਾਦ and ਚੇਤਾ. The evening Sikh prayer Rehras (ਰਹਿਰਾਸ) contains a verse: ਊਡੈ ਊਡਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੈ ਕੋਸਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਾਛੈ ਬਚਰੇ ਛਰਿਆ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਵਨੁ ਖਲਾਵੈ ਕਵਨੁ ਚੁਗਾਵੈ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿਆ ॥ (GGS page 10) [Guru Arjun uses the illustration of the florican – a migratory bird of cold regions which flies out long distances in search of food; leaving its young behind. Despite the distance,  separation and the continually arduous task of finding food that the bird has to perform,  remembrance of its offspring remains a constant. (ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿਆ)।





Sikhi places primary importance on remembering God at all times. Guru Arjun says in GGS page 263 ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ॥ Meaning of all spiritual deeds, keeping God in one’s mind or remembering Him is of the highest order. The vocabulary of Sikhi that has captured such a principle is Naam Simran ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ. The meanings of the words Naam and Simran within the context of Gurbani is as follows.

The GGS on page 803 contains a verse that reads: ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥  Here Guru Arjun is elaborating the meaning of Simran. Remembering God within one’s mind is Simran. This therefore is the Gurbani definition of Simran. Yet the question remains that since God has no discernible shape or form to the extent that the human mind cannot even begin to imagine any shape or form, how then does one visualize, let alone remember God? Gurbani thus advises the Sikh that remembrance must center on the ਨਾਮ Naam. Hence the verse above delineating Simran as a function of the mind (ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ) and Simran as remembrance (ਚਿਤਾਰੇ) relates to the Naam of the all pervading God (ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ) Ram comes from the word ਰਮਿਆ – meaning all pervading or present everywhere.

What then is meant by the word Naam? The Gurus make clear the meaning of Naam within Gurbani. Naam does not mean Name. Certainly not proper names that we human accord to other human beings or things – living or otherwise. Our parents who were in existence well before we came into being have determined our names. Parents and elders undertake naming ceremonies. Those who make or create things also generally name them. Gurbani says God is self created - Saibhang. Gurbani also says there was no entity prior to God, He is Ajooni. Therefore there could have been no naming ceremonies per se and no proper name as well. Gurbani says that names that we humans accord to God in the path of spirituality, inclusive of Sat ਸਤਿ are descriptive and functional attributes (ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ) of God. ਕਿਰਤਮ comes from the word ਕਿਰਤ meaning function. A Gurbani verse on page 1083 penned by Guru Arjun makes this clear:   ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ  ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ॥ Meaning, the names of Yours that I utter are ਕਿਰਤਮ which in turn means functional, descriptive and attribution-al. In spiritual terms ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ  translate as God’s virtues and God’s praises as perceived by those who choose to walk His path. So God’s names are in essence given by His bhagats, His children, His devoted souls.  Such names are innumerable, uncountable, ever increasing and all of equal stature. They are of equal standing because they are given and accorded by us, humans. It cannot be that one attribute of God is higher or lower than another. It is simply a matter of which attribute (s) a particular seeker finds more fitting in his/her personal spiritual journey. Guru Nanak illustrates this point in the third pauree of Japji – the Gavey Ko pauree. Individuals perceive God in attributes that are most relevant to their individual spiritual situations, and proceed to call, name or refer to God in terms of these attributes, and then to sing these attributes. The Gurbani term for these myriad attributes of God is therefore Naam. Consequently, Naam refers to the unfathomable virtues, functions, merits, and descriptions etc. of the Creator-Being. Our Gurus, within their spiritual consciousness, similarly saw a variety of Godly virtues and listed them in Gurbani.

It follows therefore, that in Gurmat, Naam Simran refers to the process of remembering God’s virtues / attributes ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਨਾ। The ultimate objective of such remembrance on a regular basis and as a constant of life (ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿਆ) while going about our daily lives is to attempt to understand, appreciate and then acquire some of these virtues within our practical lives. The essence of Sikhi is for the Sikh to be Guru-like and God-like. The like-ness is in terms of virtues and attributes. So if God is Nirbhau ਨਿਰਭਉ (fearless), the object of the Sikh is to become fearless. Guru Arjun puts this succinctly in the GGS page 294. ਨਿਰਭਉ ਜਪੈ ਸਗਲ ਭਉ ਮਿਟੈ। By contemplating on the Fearless all my fears have vanished.  Guru Teg Bahadur ji epitomizes this virtue in a verse on page 1427 of the GGS: ਭੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਕਉ ਦੇਤ ਨਹਿ ਨਹਿ ਭੈ ਮਾਨਤ ਆਨ ॥  ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਤਾਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿ  ॥ One who provides no fear to anyone and who fears none - says Nanak,  is  spiritually wise.  Fearing none is a virtue of God (and this is so because God has no equal) and the ninth master is asking the spiritual person to acquire it, amongst other virtues. Such a virtue is to be acquired through the process of contemplation of the virtue itself.

But what is the process of Naam Simran? The GGS verse on page 1120 says : ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਗਾਉ ਗੁਨ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਉਧਰੁ ਸਾਗਰ ਕੇ ਖਾਤ॥  This verse makes clear that singing the unfathomable praises  and virtues (ਗਾਉ ਗੁਨ) of Gobind the provider is the real process of Naam Simran. Singing in Gurmat is the primary process of contemplation whereby the mind’s faculties are fully applied through the listening uttering part.  The question now remains answering is: How or what method should the Sikh use in Naam Simran?

A vast majority of Sikhs has accepted that the repetitious recital of Satnam or Waheguru is the be all and end all of Naam Simran.  Nothing more, nothing less.  All there is to Naam Simran  is to sit still and recite it aloud for a fixed period of time or for a fixed number of recitations. Some have added the rosary to the process while others have deployed mechanical counting devices. Some have resorted to singing the words Satnam and Waheguru to tunes of “Satnam Ji, Waheguru Ji” or “Wahguru Wahguru Wahguru Wahguru” for considerable lengths of time. Others have created or imported “techniques” from elsewhere – closing the eyes, dimming the lights, coordinating breathing, adopting various sitting positions, pressing the index finger and thumb together, putting the palm to the heart, placing the limbs in a variety of positions etc. Many have laid claim to the “real” method even if drawn from such meaningless techniques. As if these distractions weren’t enough, Sikhs now have to contend with the question of where and what to concentrate one’s mind upon, when doing Naam Simran. The answers are as varied as they can get: put a photo of the Guru in front, focus on the third eye (wherever that is), fix your gaze on a lighted candle, concentrate on your forehead, look intensely at a lamp, or think of the feet of the baba are only the tip of the iceberg “techniques” that have found their way into mainstream Sikhi.

But what answer does Gurbani provide in relation to the above question? The repetitious utterance of a word or mantar (with or without a rosary or counter) is called chanting or “ਰਟਨ” in Punjabi. Chanting has zero value in Gurmat. Repetitious chanting creates three major problems from the Gurmat and Gurbani point of view.

The first problem would be that Gurbani rubbishes repetitious chanting.  Bhai Gurdas Ji has an elaborate Kabit as follows:  ਖਾਂਡ ਖਾਂਡ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਨਾ ਸਵਾਦ ਮੀਠੋ ਆਵੈ, ਅਗਨ ਅਗਨ ਕਹੈ ਸੀਤ ਨਾ ਬਿਨਾਸ ਹੈ॥ Repetitiously chanting / saying “sugar, sugar’” will no bring sweetness to ones taste; chanting “fire, fire” will not take the cold away.  Obviously one has to say “sugar” ONCE to refer to sugar. But the taste would only come from the act of eating it, not saying “sugar” again and again.  He goes on to provide four more illustrations – chanting “medicine” will not heal one, chanting “money” will not bring wealth, chanting “sandalwood” will not produce fragrance, and chanting “sun” will not produce light.

The second problem is that chanting Gurbani or any part of Gurbani makes that which is chanted as a mantar. A mantar by definition is a means to an end.  It is chanted to produce some desired effect.  The effects of a mantar are always external. We need to think seriously here. Considering Gurbani as being a means to an end puts that particular end higher than the means and reduces Gurbani to the level of an instrument, tool and contraption – fit for chanting purposes only. From chanting Satnam Waheguru, Sikhs have progressed to all sorts of other chanting – chanting Dukh Bhjanjani Shabads, chanting Japji from 6 am to 6pm, chanting Chaupai for 24 hours etc. The objective of each is external - to bring material gains and remove physical pains.   There can be no bigger misconception than to consider Gurbani as a means.  Guru Amardas ji is clear in his definition of Gurbani as an end in itself when he says on page 515 of the GGS ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ Banee is the highest end – it is God Himself – and there is nothing comparable to it. That nothing is higher than Gurbani is the message of the third Master here. The objective of banee is to bring internal effect, internal change, internal elevatedness.

The third problem is that if repetitious chanting / saying / singing of just one word, or a collection of words, or a mantar was the Gurmat way to God,  where then does one place the utility of 1430 pages, 5,887 Shabads and some 40,000 verses? Of what use is this immense, rich and vast reservoir of spirituality that we call the Guru Granth Sahib which the Gurus took great pains, sacrifices and time to provide for us? If the mere and repetitious singing of Satnam or Waheguru is to be considered Kirtan, then what were our Gurus doing composing 5,887 Shabads in 48 raags, countless sub and misrat (combined) raags, intricate poetic arrangements (dohras, salokas, shunts, etc) and innumerable taals? Did Guru Nanak, together with his musical partner and genius Bhai Mardana do kirtan of only “Satnam ji, Waheguru ji”? For what purpose did Guru Nanak compose 2,226 Shabads – NONE of which even use the word Waheguru even once? As a matter of fact, NONE of the Gurus have used the word Waheguru in their Banee. The Bhatts used the word Waheguru in the presence of Guru Arjun to refer to the fifth Master and to call out to Guru Arjun. So to a Sikh the word Waheguru would mean O Guru, O Wonderous Guru. Our Guru of course is the Shabad and the Wondorus-ness of the Shabad is within its message. Where does chanting  fit into this wonder? It has to be said that if all that mattered was the chanting of one word or a collection of words (mantar), then the decision would have been so recorded in the GGS and the Sikh Scripture could have been completed in just one or two pages.

A specific problem relating to the Gurmat definition of Kirtan arises when we start to sing “Satnam Ji, Waheguru Ji,” or “Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru,” as kirtan.     The Sikh Rehat Maryada under subsection (ਅ) page 15 defines Kirtan as ਕੀਰਤਨ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਗਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਉਚਾਰਣ ਕਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। Translation:  Kirtan is the singing of Gurbani in Raags.  In subsection (e), the SRM dictates:  ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕੇਵਲ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਜਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਸਰੂਪ ਰਚਨਾ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਤੇ ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।Translation: In the presence of the Sangat, Kirtan is to be performed ONLY from Gurbani and the Gurbani explanatory writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji and Bhai Nand Lal Ji. Consequently when someone starts to sing as Kirtan  “Satnam Ji, Waheguru JI,” or “Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru,” the most serious violation of the SRM occurs in that “Satnam Ji, Waheguru JI,” and  “Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru” is neither Gurbani nor the writings of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal ji. If the excuse is that one of the two Bhaat compositions are being sung, then they must be sung exactly as they are written and in Raag, and without any kind of distortion. The Bhatts did not use the word Satnam as a single word. And the Bhatt compositions are not in chanting form and not meant to be chanted. They are meant to be sung in Raag and Taal. The first Bhatt verse is: ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗ ੁਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ  ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥ Sewak Kay Bharpoor Jug Jug Wah Guru Tera Sab Sadka. The other verse is ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ Sat Sach Sri Niwas Aad Purakh Sda Tuhi Wagheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahe Jio. The poetic style for both verses is Swayea and the complete verse should be sung as such in Kirtan – without distortion and without adding one, two, three or four more “Wahegurus” and without prolonged repetition. Cursory reading of both the above verses makes clear that there is no element of chanting in any one.  Then there are those who start off by singing a normal Gurbani Shabad in Raag and Taal.  Midway, or at any point that pleases them, they start to chant “Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru Waheguru.”This is clear distortion of the Shabad.  The words being chanted are NOT contained within the Shabad being sung. Oftentimes, in the heat, fervor and energy of the chanting the remainder of the shabad is discarded and left unsung!

The process of rosary spinning ਮਾਲਾ ਫੇਰਨਾ has been thoroughly critiqued in Gurbani because it is a ritual. Display of spirituality and ego are just two of the negative (spiritually) traits connected with the rosary.  It is of course a different issue that we have created fake photos of Guru Nanak and adorned the false image with rosaries in the Guru’s hands, over  the heads, and in the necks. Such photos are perhaps the creation of those who themselves wished to link to the pakhand of the rosary.   A vast majority of main-stream Sikhs have equated such chanting to the concept of Jaap. This is perhaps the biggest spiritual blunder anyone can make. The equating of chanting “ਰਟਨ” to Jaap “ਜਾਪ” is not supported by Gurbani. Jaap is contemplation – the application of the deepest levels of spiritual concentration to understand the inner messages of Gurbani and to connect to them in the deepest possible sense.  The philosophical underpinning of what constitutes Jaap is contained in Guru Nanak’s richly philosophical banee titled Japji. The 38 paurees and two saloks of Japji together combine to tell us what Jaap is within the Sikhi context.  The Japji bane is the most authoritative definition of the concept of Jaap. No where in this bane is chanting prescribed. In fact chanting is rubbished in pauree 32 as ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ – a lie created by the fake and false. Elsewhere, the GGS defines Jaap in succinct terms:  ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ (GGS 192)) namely that the Jaap of the Sikh is the application of the mind to the banee of the Guru. This means that Jaap is for the Sikh is to contemplate the entire banee of the Guru. Jaap comes from the word ਜਾਂਪਣਾ Jaapna – meaning to know, to understand, to appreciate and to contemplate. It certainly is not the repetitious chanting of one word, one mantar or one whole shabad. It is not even the chanting of the entire GGS.  There are those who have taken the meaning of Jaap to levels low and beyond logic.  They have mis-understood the title of Guru Nanak’s banee Japji to mean – Japo Jee – “come let’s chant jee”. They thus either repetitiously chant the special composition just before Japji begins on page one of the GGS (Ek Oankgar, Satnam, Karta Purakh, Nirbhau, Nirvair, Akaal Moorat, Ajooni Saibhang, Gurparsaad) or the salok immediately after Japji begins (Aad Sach Jogaad Sach, Hai Bhee Sach, Nanak Hosee Bhee Sach). They have self-created a name for these verses – Mool Mantar and (erroneously) concluded that the word “Jap” is a command by Guru Nanak for the Sikh to chant these verses. The very fact that the word “Jap” (with an aungkar to the p) is a singular noun (and NOT a verb) and denotes the title of the banee we call Japji escapes such people. Mantars are meant to be chanted indeed. That is perhaps the underlying reason why those bent on chanting it have transfixed the term Mantar to these verses. While there may be nothing inherently wrong in using the term Mool Mantar as nomenclature for the starting verses (just as we have, on our own, named the final banee in the GGS as ਭੋਗਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਲੋਕ Bhogan Dey Salok), it is a different thing altogether to allot a spiritual position (mool)  and a spiritual function (Mantar meant to be chanted) where none was intended by the author (Guru) of the verse concerned. The phrase Ek Oangkar till Gurparsaad appears 33 times in the GGS, and if all its shorter versions are counted, it appears 569 times.  The verses “Aad Sach Jugad Sach…” appear twice in the GGS. The word “Mool” or “Mantar”  or “Mool Mantar” does not appear anywhere within the vicinity of these 569 or 2 verses respectively. In other words, the authors of the two verses (Guru Nanak and Guru Arjun respectively) did not regard them as ‘mantras” and did not term them as such. They also did not regard them as “mool” or root, because to do that would be to classify Gurbani verses in an order of importance.  All of Gurbani within the 1430 pages – irrespective of the author – Guru or Bhagat or Sikh – is all “mool”.

As if to prove their fixation with “mantars”, Sikhs have invented another non-Gurbani term namely “Gurmantar.” They quote a verse from Bhai Gurdas ji which reads: Wahe Guru Gur Mantar Hai, Jup Haumai Khoee. The correct interpretation of this verse is: O Wondrous Guru, You (Gur) are my Mantar, Knowing You /Contemplating on You (Jup) I have lost my ego. The error happens when the words Gur and mantar are combined to make it into one new word – Gurmantar. The other often quoted “verse”  reads as follows: ਸਾਰ ਮੰਤਰ ਚਾਰੌ ਕਾ ਚਾਰ। ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤਰ ਨਿਰਧਾਰ॥ ਕਲਪ ਕਲਪ ਪ੍ਰਤ ਅਖਛਰ ਕਹੀ। ਸਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਪਾਯੋ ਸਹੀ। The meaning: The right mantar for the four ages. Waheguru Mantar is the savior. Contemplation upon contemplations resulted in its composition. Guru Nanak caused it to be rightly chanted. There are two points worth considering here. Firstly, this “verse” is from the Sarab Loh Granth – NOT the Guru Granth. Secondly, as stated above Guru Nanak did not use the word “Waheguru” even once in his entire banee. So how could he have caused it to be chanted if he himself never even used it. Third, Guru Nanak’s definition of “Jup” and “Jaap” is in his own composition that we call Jupji. In that banee, no where does he talk about “Japayeo.”


Then there is the matter of the “techniques” – all of which have been critiqued by Gurbani as ritualistic and pretentious pakhand.  Unfortunately some Sikhs have become entangled in these techniques as the end all of Sikhi. It never fails to surprise the average intellect that while we perform all other important things with our eyes open, the most important aspect of spirituality – Simran- is to done with the eyes shut and the lights off. It is Chanting that requires these pre-requisites. But Gurbani says on page 1420 of the GGS:         ਨਾਇ ਸੁਣਿਐ ਘਟਿ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਆਨ@ੇਰੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥ (ਗੁਰੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੨੪੦) meaning that the Naam is such an illumination, that listening to it dispels inner darkness.  Why then do we put the condition of outer darkness in our spiritual activity of Naam Simran? Is it because we have distorted the meanings and understanding of the concepts of Jaap and Naam Simran?


What then is Naam Simran in essence? Let’s refer to some verses from Gurbani. The fifth Guru says on page 803 of the GGS: ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥  The first point therefore is that Simran is the process of applying the mind to the remembrance of God by contemplation of His virtues. The term Simar Mna – is worth pondering over.  It is to be done by the mind. There are a myriad of ways in which God can be remembered and contemplated upon. Talking about Him, listening to someone talk about Him, reading about Him, discussing Him are all acts of Simran. This essay, because it is discussing Him is Simran both in the act of writing and reading. Needless to say, both activities are done with the eyes open and lights switched on. Yet the best and Guru-recommended method of remembering God and to contemplate on Him is to read, listen, sing, discuss, understand, help others understand, and to walk the path as laid out in Gurbani.  The GGGS has a verse on page 296 : ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ Meaning Naam is the virtues of God (ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ), and these virtues are found in the reading, listening and singing (ਧੁਨਿ) of Gurbani.   Another verse on page 973 makes it clear: ਸਿਮਰਿ  ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਗਾਈਐ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ meaning the singing ਗਾਈਐ of Gods virtues with application of the mind ਮਨਿ ਗਾਈਐ is Simran. And that such Simran (remembrance) comes from the True Guru (Gurbani). The second point therefore is that the basis of Naam Simran in Sikhi is Gurbani that is contained within the 1430 pages.  The third point relating to Naam Simran can be found in another verse on GGS page 1222. ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਇਹੁ ਸਾਧ ਕੋ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥ Meaning that the Kirtan of Gurbani is a beautiful method (ਆਚਾਰੁ)  of undertaking the Simran of God.   The fourth point can be found in a verse of Guru Arjun on page 262 of the GGS:  ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਾਧ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਨਾਨਕ  ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ॥ Meaning, to join  the sadh sangat and to do the things that are undertaken in a sangat (listen, sing, discuss, understand, appreciate Gods’ virtues) is the Simran of the Master. The fifth point concerns concentration – what or where to place one’s mind ਧਿਆਨ while performing Simran. Because Simran in Sikhi is Gurbani based, and every single verse of Gurbani contains deep meaning, the understanding of which requires full concentration, the mind has to focus on the Gurbani words themselves and not some external object. Guru Nanak says on page 1075 of the GGS: ਕਲਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਪਰਧਾਨਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਲਾਇ ਧਿਆਨਾ ॥ Meaning: within the Jaap of the Gurmukh, Kirtan is of highest order (ਕੀਰਤਨ ਪਰਧਾਨਾ) and the concentration (ਧਿਆਨਾ) must remain within the Kirtan itself.

From the above five point discussion it can be surmised that Naam Simran of a Sikh is to be undertaken at two distinct levels. The first is as an individualized and personal activity and the second an institutionalized activity within the confines of the sangat. Yet the basis of both levels is Gurbani. Personal Simran entails reading Gurbani, performing Nit Nem, committing as much Gurbani as possible to memory (so as to internalize the message at some point within one’s life), researching the meanings of Gurbani, singing Gurbani, discussing and sharing Gurbani messages within the family and circle of friends, contemplating deeply on the messages of Gurbani, putting the messages into daily existence, internalizing the values within Gurbani etc.  At the institutional level, Simran entails joining the sangat in Kirtan, the discourse of Gurbani (Katha) and using the sangat atmosphere (diwan) to expand on ones inner understanding, appreciation and contemplation of Gurbani messages.

Equating Naam Simran to chanting, labeling it meditation and touting the “benefits” of such chanting is to miss the point of the spirituality of Sikh Simran all together. “I feel peaceful, rested, relaxed, tension free etc” are some of the benefits that one hears about from the practitioners of chanting Satnam or Waheguru or the Mool Mantar. These (and many others) are physical benefits that can come about from chanting just about anything or any word or even nothing, meditating on something or nothing at all. The benefits are the results of reduced brain activity, reduced muscle tensions and slowed breathing that accompany chanting. Repeating the same thing over and over requires little or no mental effort hence the relaxation. Yet these are physical activities with purely physical benefits. In any case chanting already existed within existing spiritual systems – Hindus, Yogis and Budhists chanted all sorts of mantars. If all Guru Nanak did was to replace their mantars with his own, then what was special, unique or different about Sikhi? The reality is that Sikh Simran is a spiritual activity of a higher realm all together. The benefits of Naam Simran are of the highest order - to be Guru-like and God-like.


Sikhi is a journey which is Gurbani- centred. Sikh Simran is similarly Gurbani-centred. Gurbani is the soul of Sikhi.  The third Guru says on page 982 of the GS : ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥  Everything that is Sikhi is within Gurbani.  The God of Sikhi is also within Gurbani.   ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ (ਗੁਰੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਨਾ ੫੧੬)[ The mantar of Sikhi  is Gurbani too, as versed on page 562 of the GGS: ਸਚੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ and again  on page 1208:  ਬਾਣੀ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਹਿ ਉਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਂਨ ਕਉ ॥ ਖੋਜਿ ਲਹਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਖ ਥਾਨਾਂ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ਕਉ ॥  (ਗੁਰੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੨੦੮)। The Jaap of a Sikh is also Gurbani, as versed on page 192 of the GGS: ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ It thus simply can’t be that Sikh Simran be anything other than Gurbani or outside of Gurbani. And because Gurbani is spiritual, the benefits of Naam Simran are also spiritual.


It would be an irony of ironies to look for the definition, techniques and methods of Naam Simran outside of Gurbani. Yet the irony is prevalent. One such ironical occasion witnessed by the author is worth narrating given that it   became the inspiration for this essay. An acclaimed Ragi Jatha was given an hour to perform Gurbani Kirtan in a local Gurdwara. They rendered 4 shabads in the most beautiful melodies, appropriate raags and intricate taals complete with parmaans (illustrations)  from the GGS. They completed the final Shabad just when there were 3 -4 minutes left and proceeded to announce to the sangat ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ ਜੀ, ਤਿੰਨ ਚਾਰ ਮਿੰਟ ਬਾਕੀ ਹਨ, ਆਉ ਹੁਣ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰੀਏ।  Sadh sangat we have 3-4 minutes left NOW lets do some simran. They then proceeded to chant Waheguru Waheguru, Waheguru Waheguru inviting the sangat to join their chanting.  If this is indeed Simran, then what was it they did for the 57 minutes where they sang Gurbani? When I pointed out to them privately later that the REAL SIMRAN was within the 57 minutes of their Kirtan and not the final 3-4 which was ਰਟਨ or chanting, their response was feeble, shabby and pathetic: “that is how the sangat understands simran, the sangat wants it that way, it pleases the sangat” was their response. I proceeded to ask if it was too much effort on their part to ask if that was how Gurbani explained simran, how the Gurus wanted Simran to be, and if the chanting pleased the Guru. Their final response: that is how they had been doing it all along. My final response: if spiritual beings are going to keep doing what they have been doing all along, there would be no need for our Gurus, their Gurbani and Sikhi even. We could have just kept throwing water at the sun then. We could have just kept dipping ourselves in the countless rivers to cleanse ourselves. And we could have just kept watering the pippal trees.  Irony has to have its limits. 


The author can be contacted at dhillon99@gmail.com


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## Luckysingh

Oh dear !
I'm a pakhandi and have not been doing Real Simran 
What now ??


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## spnadmin

Reread all posts by Tejwant Singh ji on the subject. All about living simran not doing simran.


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## SaintSoldier1699

Great article.  It's unfortunate that 95% of Sikhs are happy to do the mentioned chanting.  Flicking through Sikh channels it's hard not to find the chanting,  50 day,  24 hour simran sessions in order for good luck, or some other wanted change.   The number of parcharak's promoting this are in abundance. 

I always feel a bit cheated going to the Gurdwara for someone to spent 10-15+ minutes just chanting instead of delving into the deep ocean of pearls Guru Granth Sahib ji.  I mean they can't complain that they don't have enough content to use!


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## Harry Haller

Luckysingh said:


> Oh dear !
> I'm a pakhandi and have not been doing Real Simran
> What now ??


 become a baba?


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## ActsOfGod

*How to do Simran?*

VaheguruJiKaKhalsa|VaheguruJiKiFateh||

I have a question that I hope someone here can help me with.  I want to do Simran, and have tried many times, but I always seem to end up back to square one.  Either I'm not doing it right, or something else is missing.

I have asked this question to a lot of people and the answer I always get has to do with the mechanics (e.g. "Breathe from your belly", "Say Vahhh on the inhale, and Gurrrroooo on the exhale", "Do Simran at such-and-such time, or in such-and-such pose", etc.)

But my real question is not about the mechanics.  I want to know, how to actually *do* Simran.  I know it's more than just sitting and reciting a word mechanically like a parrot while your mind is off wandering anywhere and everywhere.  And I know it's more than just "meditating" or "focusing" or "concentrating" on God.  How do you "focus" on God anyway?  What are you supposed to center your attention on?  He has no attributes, no form, no color, no shape, no definable material qualities.  And the mind relies on material qualities to make sense of the world.  For example, if you say "temperature", then there is a concept I can wrap my thinking around.  It's 80 degrees Fahrenheit.  Got it.  But if you say, "meditate on an undefinable characteristic", my mind is just going to wander, and then I will daydream and eventually be thinking about my chores and to-do list, and what is due at work, and the car needs maintenance, etc. etc.

So basically what I'm asking is, how exactly is a Sikh supposed to do Simran?  What should be going on in the mind?  And how do we do it, exactly?  It's more than just the lips and mouth moving and saying "Vaheguru" repeatedly.  This is the part I'm missing.  What should go on in the mind?  And how do we make it happen?  I have an inkling that this is beyond willpower and focus/concentration.  But I could be wrong.

I read in  the 4th Pauri of Japji Sahib:

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār. 
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.

So, the message is, vichar karo.  So I tried that.  I got up at 5am and after showering and dressing, I sat and contemplated, according to my intelligence, what I considered the greatness of God.  I thought about the planet Earth and all the lifeforms on Earth, and how they all lived, and then I considered our galaxy, the Milky Way, and then I expanded my thoughts to the entire Universe, and how vast it was, and all the stellar phenomena we know about, and I thought about the Supreme Being that architected all of this creation.  Is this Simran?  Is this what is meant by, "Vichar" in the tuk above?  Or am I just not understanding it correctly?

Would love to get some advice on this from anyone who can help me.

Thank you in advance.

Guru Fateh!


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## spnadmin

*Re: How to do Simran?*

ActsOGod ji

I am merging your thread "How to Do Simran" with this thread "Simran and Sikhi." If you go to the beginning of the thread you will have the big picture.


Here is the link to Simran and Sikhi. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/41762-simran-and-sikhi-karminder-singh-dhillon.html

And now to merge the 2 threads.


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## Luckysingh

Have a look at some of the meditation threads on here.
But you must have the hunger and thirst for it if you really want to make a good start.


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## spnadmin

Meditation is not simran. Simran is not meditation. Always keep that in mind ActsOGod. The word "simran" is remembrance, keeping in mind, staying attuned to..."Simar" the verb is active; remember, keep in mind, focus upon, stay tuned.  Simran is not a mind at rest but an enlivened mind mind seeking its true home through the shabad. 

Simran is not mindlessness. It is not chanting and reciting. Simran can be found following the message of Gurbani, when we focus on the Guru's word by feeding the hungry or soothing a crying child. Mindlessness will not find your place in the Guru.

This is a very inspirational essay about simran "Simran with the Seagulls."  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26992-simran-with-the-seagulls.html


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## Luckysingh

:grinningsingh: I assumed actsofgod was inquiring about naam simran, which is in practice meditating on the naam.:winkingmunda:


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## spnadmin

Luckysingh said:


> :grinningsingh: I assumed actsofgod was inquiring about naam simran, which is in practice meditating on the naam.:winkingmunda:



So what does that leave you with? What difference does it make whether ActsOGod is asking about naam simran or asking about simran?

I think we can see from the lead article that naam simran, as a repetitious activity, chanting without any focus on the Shabad Guru, is not consistent with face-to-the-Guru Sikhi. Face-to-the-Guru is literally putting your face toward the Guru: reading Gurbani, reciting Gurbani, listening to Gurbani, and finding the Guru and the Guru's word in the active lives and act of living itself.

Chanting almost anything will accord someone the benefits of meditation. It would not be necessary for us to chant or meditate on the naam to qualify as meditation or derive the benefits of meditation.

Chanting mantras and Waheguru's name is actually discouraged in Gurbani, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## Luckysingh

It's time for me to go and meditate.
Adios
:grinningsingh:


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## Ishna

Luckysingh said:


> :grinningsingh: I assumed actsofgod was inquiring about naam simran, which is in practice meditating on the naam.:winkingmunda:


I think you mean naam japna (not sure if that's the right word.. naam japo maybe?), as opposed to naam simran.  What do you think of that?

ActsOfGod ji, I really appreciated your post!!  I have the exact same questions!  At the moment, almost every morning I'm reading page after page of English translation of Gurbani in my sehaj paath.  I have found this habit to have *the most impact on me* spiritually so far, in my time as a Sikh.  Much more impact that early morning "naam japna / meditation" ever had.

I think this might be part of the puzzle.  The next part is keeping the rememberance of those divine qualities in your mind all the time like Karminder Singh's article says at the beginning of this article.  This is actually *really hard to do*.

Those are my observations so far, I hope they're helpful to you veerji.  :welcomekaur:


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## chazSingh

you only need to try and remember something if you''re being told that you've forgoton something...

something inside you is trying to give you a nudge...a feeling that all around you isn;t the full story...

your focus though is still on the outside...your Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) says focus a little time on the inside and you may start to uncover the real truth...*not what you thought was the truth...*

so how do i remember, how do i do Simran, if i don;t really know what it is i'm supposed to be remembering?

Guru Ji says control the mind that is pulling you around by the hair...and 'listen'

but what am i listening out for? i can't hear anything...there's too much aymospheric noise (the mind chatting, worrying, desiring, hating, chasing) .. i can't hear anything... i don;t remember anything....i'm lost! but i will perservere, i can;t get rid of this 'pull' inside of me...i need to keep focus and ask Guru ji (internal Guru) to come and take hold of my hand.

i close my eyes, the shabad (from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) helps me keep focus, with every wavering thought, i pull back towards the shabad "No! MIND, quit your crap, i aint interested" The shabad that sounds so sweet, the pull inside your heart combine...but the mind keeps trying to pull you back to thoughts of sex, anger, greed, desire...

...then one day, when the mind sits still (quietens), in the silence experienced between your thoughts, your understanding of reality literally turns upside down...little by little pebbles of truth begin to unfold...

and with even more patience, ardass, love, the remembering starts to manifest...who am i....who am i...wow....wahhh waheguru....waheguru....wondrous guru!


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## ActsOfGod

Thanks for all your input...

Does this mean to say that repeating "Waheguru" over and over again as we've been taught to do is actually not prescribed by Gurbani?  It's so habitual now that I just say "Waheguru" repeatedly whenever I'm driving or standing in line or doing some chores, etc.

Still very confused about how to actually do simran.  And what did Guru Nanak Sahib mean in Japji Sahib when he wrote "Amrit Vayla such nao vadiai vichar".  I got the first part, Amrit Vayla, but the second part, how exactly should one do vichar?  Help please from anyone who can shed any light on this.

Guru Fateh!


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## spnadmin

ActsOfGod said:


> Thanks for all your input...
> 
> Does this mean to say that repeating "Waheguru" over and over again as we've been taught to do is actually not prescribed by Gurbani?
> 
> Guru Fateh!



That is correct ! Who taught you that you should do that ? Ask them to explain their reasons with the same careful detail used by Dr. Karminder Singh ji who explains why simran is a whole different story. Shabad Guru teaches us when we are looking for a teacher. 

Using the Shabad to prove points is like going to class to tell the teacher what to teach.

Now you also asked how to do vichaar? And your answer is really in your question. Read Shabad Guru with a curious mind, an open mind, and make that your simran. What is the shabad saying to you? When you become comfortable noting ideas that come up over and again, and when you start to notice things that seem to be contradictions too, write all of that down. Seek your answers by deeper study. It all comes in steps and your understanding will change. It helps to find a place, a sangat, for discussion of your ideas. Learn Gurmukhi and read the shabad in Punjabi when you can. Listen to the kirtan of the shabads you read. There are also on-line classes that are free to study SGGS. Team up with others who are learning too and discuss your thoughts and reactions. The most important thing in my opinion is not to be afraid to ask questions.


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## Taranjeet singh

I give below relevant of extracts from Sikh Rehat Maryada. May be it is helpful. 

*Sikh Reht Maryada
SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS
Section One*
*    CHAPTER 1
The Definition of Sikh *
*. CHAPTER II*
Section Two

*Sikh Living *
Articles II
A Sikh's life has two aspects :
         individual or personal and corporate or Panthic.

*                CHAPTER III*
*A Sikh's Personal Life
Article III*
A Sikh's personal life should comprehend:-
i. Meditation on Nam (Divine Substance, also translated as the God's attributed self) and the scriptures,
ii. Leading life according to the Guru's teachings and
iii. Altruistic voluntary service.

*Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
Article IV *

1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness). 
2. He/she should recite the following scriptural compositions every day : 
a. The Japu, the Jaapu and the Ten Sawayyas (Quartets) - beginning "Sarwag sudh"-- in the morning.
b. Sodar Rehras comprising the following compositions:- 
i) nine hymns of the Guru Granth Sahib, occuring in the holy book after the Japuji Sahib, (The Phrase in Italic has been interpolated by the translator to help locate the hymns more conveniently.) the first of which begins with "Sodar" and the last of which ends with "saran pare ki rakho sarma", 
ii) The Benti Chaupai of the tenth Guru (beginning "hamri karo hath dai rachha" and ending with "dusht dokh te leho bachai", 
iii) the Sawayya beginning with the words "pae gahe jab te tumre", 
iv) the Dohira beginning with the words "sagal duar kau chhad kai". 
v) the first five and the last pauris (stanzas) of Anand Sahib (The object of reciting the Anand as part of Sodar Rehras or at the conclusion of the congregational gathering is just to express joy and gratitude for the communion with the Guru ) and. 
vi) the Mundawani and the slok Mahla 5 beginning "tera kita jato nahi"- in the evening after sunset.
(c) The Sohila - to be recited at night before going to bed. The morning and evening recitations should be concluded with the Ardas (formal supplication litany). 

3 (a)The text (This is a model of the Ardas. It may be adapted to different occasions and for different purposes. However, the initial composition with "Pritham Bhagauti......" and the concluding phrases commencing "Nanak Nam" must not be altered.) of the Ardas : (LIT. Supplication or prayer. in reality, It is a litany comprehending very briefly the whole gamut of Sikh History and enumerating all that Sikhism holds sacred. Portions of it are invocations and prayer for the grant of strength and virtue. It concludes with : O Nanak, may the Nam (Holy) be ever in ascendance : in Thy will, may the good of all prevail ! 

     One absolute Manifest; victory belongeth to the Wondrous Destroyer of darkness. May the might of the All-powerful help! 

Ode to his might by the tenth lord. 

     Having first thought of the Almighty's prowess, let us think of Guru Nanak. Then of Guru Angad, Amardas and Ramdas - may they be our rescuers! Remember, then, Arjan, Hargobind and Har Rai. Meditate then on revered Har Krishan on seeing whom all suffering vanishes. Think then of Teg Bahadar, remembrance of whom brings all nine treasures. He comes to rescue every where. Then of the tenth Lord, revered Guru Gobind Singh, who comes to rescue every where. The embodiment of the light of all ten sovereign lordships, the Guru Granth - think of the view and reading of it and say, "Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of Darkness)". 

     Meditating on the achievement of the dear and truthful ones, including the five beloved ones, the four sons of the tenth Guru, forty liberated ones, steadfast ones, constant repeaters of the Divine Name, those given to assiduous devotion, those who repeated the Nam, shared their fare with others, ran free kitchen, wielded the sword and everlooked faults and shortcomings, say "Waheguru", O Khalsa. 

     Meditating on the achievement of the male and female members of the Khalsa who laid down their lives in the cause of Dharma (religion and righteousness), got their bodies dismembered bit by bit, got their skulls sawn off, got mounted on spiked wheels, got their bodies sawn, made sacrifices in the service of the shrines (Gurdwaras), did not betray their faith, sustained their adherence to the Sikh faith with unshorn hair uptill their last breath, say "Wondrous Destroyer of darkness", O Khalsa.

     Thinking of the five thrones (of sikh religious authority) and all Gurdwaras, say "Wondrous Destroyer of darkness", O Khalsa. 

     Now it is the prayer of the whole Khalsa, May the conscience of the whole Khalsa be informed by Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru and, in consequence of such remembrance, may total well-being obtain. Wherever there are communities of the Khalsa, may there be Divine protection and grace, the ascendance of the supply of needs and of the holy sword, Protection of the tradition of grace, victory of the Panth, the succour of the holy sword, ascendance of the Khalsa. Say, O Khalsa, "Wondrous Destroyrer of darkness." 

     Unto the Sikhs the gift of the Sikh faith, the gift of the untrimmed hair, the gift of the discipline of their faith, the gift of sense of discrimination, the gift of trust, the gift of confidence, above all, the gift of meditation on the Divine and bath in Amritsar (holy tank of Harmander Sahib, Amritsar). May hymns-singing missionary parties, the flags, the hostels, abide from age to age. May righteousness reign supreme. Say, "Wondrous Destroyer of darkness."

     May the Khalsa be imbued with humility and high wisdom! May Waheguru guard its understanding! 
....................................................


http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_one.html


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## spnadmin

Taranjeet singh ji

I don't see any fundamental contradiction. The rehat as you have copied it says "repeat"  the name of Waheguru. It doesn't say "chant" Waheguru over and over again. 

If I open my eyes, and begin my day, with a call "Waheguru" I have repeated the name. 

The remaining portions you have highlighted in blue don't sit in contradiction either because they are indeed requiring Sikhs to study and take the deep meaning of the events of Sikh hitory and the shabad close to heart. In that sense the shabad becomes the object of contemplation, meditation, focus and simran. The martyrdom of the gurus and sants, the sacrifices made at the holy thrones of Sikhism have lessons that can guide actions in the day that follows. This requires an active mind that is engaged in making a connection with something greater than oneself,  and is not seeking to vacate oneself of thought , as a morning ritual, or as a ritual for any time of the day.

There is no sense of ritual at all.

Are you are taking this at its literal meaning of repeating the name



> Meditating on the achievement of the dear and truthful ones, including the five beloved ones, the four sons of the tenth Guru, forty liberated ones, steadfast ones, constant repeaters of the Divine Name, those given to assiduous devotion, those who repeated the Nam, shared their fare with others, ran free kitchen, wielded the sword and everlooked faults and shortcomings, say "Waheguru", O Khalsa.



There is little historical evidence that the five beloved, four sahibzhadey, forty liberated ones, steadfast ones were "constant repeaters of the Divine Name" as in doing the Waheguru chant. What words did they use for the name? No one can produce historical documents to answer. Yet indeed they must have had the Divine Name always in their hearts and on their tongues. I get more of a picture of faith in action, in their example and in the SRM, than endless chanting. What else could this mean? 

A example that might fit the days in which we live. A devastating cyclone has swept over the Philippines. A dedicated group like United Sikhs may chose to locate their resources: doctors, nurses, teachers, cooks, food kitchens, blankets,  medicines. They arrive; they set up tents; they begin the *arduous *matter of reaching the victims in hard to reach places. They  made a personal sacrifice of the comforts of home and family. So with every breath they remember Waheguru. They say Waheguru when they land, when they unpack, when they plan, when they open the first food kitchen and serve hot meals, when they send off their trucks, when they open their eyes the morning after their arrival, when they give the first cholera injection, when they go to sleep at night, and on and on. An entire day can be an act of meditation which causes us to merge with Waheguru in ways quite different from repetitive chanting. Following in the path of the shaheeds one can be a model of steadfast doing and being the jyote of Waheguru.


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## Taranjeet singh

Spnadmin ji,

It is indeed a pleasure to read your posts as these are clearly authored.It is our privilege to assimilate new ideas and new things. In partial response to your post as above my response is as follows. 

There are two school of thoughts in the matter under discussion, one that believes in Jap, simran and dhyana  i.e chanting, remembering and meditation and the other that believes exclusively on contemplation of Bani and shabads as discussed below.
There is an over lap between the terms Simran and Dhayana. Context decides the same. 

The first school of thought believes in Naam Japna in literal sense i.e chanting waheguru and contemplating Bani.To some of them contemplation is restricted to gathering the meaning of Nitnem Paaths and assimilating the the message contained therein. The second school believes in contemplation of Bani and shabad etc. that the learned author has opined in the First post.  

There is no clear cut definition of Naam in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We are , therefore, handicapped irrespective of the school that we belong to. Nonetheless, one should have a justification to explain the view point without advocating as to which method one should follow. It is open for the aspirant to follow any method. As this is fairly sensitive matter I take your permission to give a structured reply in due course of time as it may not be easy for me to finish the reading of Electronic copy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji within short period of time. _It may be treated as an interim reply. _

I also believe that there are senior members who belong to the second school of thoughts and they may be  right in their own way as they might have found justification in what they practice. I do respect their opinion.


*Note*:I do hope that you would be conversant with Gurbani Grammar and Punjabi language as my post shall not be discussing this aspect as it is difficult to express the view point on these matters.

Regards....


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## spnadmin

Taranjeet singh ji

There are  at least 2 schools of though and perhaps more. I do not completely understand your message but will work on it. Dr. Karminder Singh ji has not taken a stand against reciting the shabad; he has taken a stand against the mindlessness of repetition. Doesn't he make the point that a mind has to be present in order to receive the shabad. Or am I thinking of a different thread? 

It might feel words are "insensitive" when the repetition model of simran is criticized. However, with enough gurmat focus criticism is reasonable. If critiques are ruled out of order another form of mindlessness takes over. No matter what someone says, everyone else is heard to respond like evangelical Christians,  "Amen, Deacon, Amen" just to side-step hurt sentiments. Mature minds should be able to handle differences of opinion.


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## Harry Haller

> he has taken a stand against the mindlessness of repetition



but this is the crux of the argument, many people find comfort/connection/spirituality in mindlessness repetition, and it is mindless repetition that is the key issue here. 

It is mindless repetition that we have all been brought up with, the sight of parents, grandparents rushing through Japji sahib, the Akhand Paths with the granthis going at breakneck speed while we all chatted in the kitchen, the cheery repetition of the words 'waheguru' guaranteed to make anything happen, be it the cure for cancer, or that new Mercedes, if anything is wrong in your life, just chant 'waheguru' everything will be ok, and then suddenly, a small child points out the obvious, the emperor has no clothes on, maybe we should understand the words, instead of chanting.............


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## ActsOfGod

I read this today and am now even more confused.  The injunction to repeat the True Name appears time and again in Gurbani, for example:

ਸਦਾ  ਰੰਗਿ  ਰਾਤੀ  ਸਹਜੇ  ਮਾਤੀ  ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਵਖਾਣੈ  ॥ 
Saḏā rang rāṯī sėhje māṯī an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇai. 
Ever imbued with His Love, in perfect poise and grace, she repeats His Name, night and day. 


and the following, also on Ang 568:

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਵਖਾਣੀਐ  ਲਾਹਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਪੀਜੈ  ਰਾਮ  ॥ 
An▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇī▫ai lāhā har ras pījai rām. 
Night and day, he repeats the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and he earns his profits, drinking in the subtle essence of the Lord. 


ਲਾਹਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਸੁ  ਲੀਜੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਾਵੀਜੈ  ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਵਖਾਣੈ  ॥ 
Lāhā har ras lījai har rāvījai an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇai. 
He earns the profit of the subtle essence of the Lord, meditating on the Lord, and repeating the Naam, night and day. 



As far as I understand it, "Vaheguru" is the name of God. (or one of the names, anyway).  So it would seem that repeating "Vaheguru" night and day (i.e. continuously) is what is advocated?

Or I am not understanding it right?

Thanks!


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## spnadmin

ActsOGod ji

If you take the literal meaning of these verses, then you will arrive at the conclusion you have arrived at. Taranjeet Singh ji has already pointed out that this is one path that a person can take. But problems lie with the use of only one tuk. Let's look at the entire shabad for the just for the first tuk you posted



> ਸਦਾ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਹਜੇ ਮਾਤੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥
> Saḏā rang rāṯī sėhje māṯī an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇai.
> Ever imbued with His Love, in perfect poise and grace, she repeats His Name, night and day.



I am not trying to be funny - but does the tuk say exactly how many times "she" the soul-bride should repeat His Name? No. To repeat His Name is not the main idea of the shabad. The main idea is to become 'suhagan,' the soul bride. 

Please take a look at the entire shabad. Our understanding should improve when we do. It should become deeper and more detailed. The color highlighting is explained later.



> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> 
> ਆਪਣੇ ਪਿਰ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੀ ਮੁਈਏ ਸੋਭਾਵੰਤੀ ਨਾਰੇ ॥
> Āpṇe pir kai rang raṯī mu▫ī▫e sobẖāvanṯī nāre.
> Let yourself be imbued with the Love of your Husband Lord, O beautiful, mortal bride.
> 
> ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੀ ਮੁਈਏ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵੇ ਭਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥
> Sacẖai sabaḏ mil rahī mu▫ī▫e pir rāve bẖā▫e pi▫āre.
> Let yourself remain merged in the True Word of the Shabad, O mortal bride; savor and enjoy the Love of your Beloved Husband Lord.
> 
> ਸਚੈ ਭਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਕੰਤਿ ਸਵਾਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਨੇਹੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
> Sacẖai bẖā▫e pi▫ārī kanṯ savārī har har si▫o nehu racẖā▫i▫ā.
> The Husband Lord embellishes His beloved bride with His True Love; she is in love with the Lord, Har, Har.
> 
> ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
> Āp gavā▫i▫ā ṯā pir pā▫i▫ā gur kai sabaḏ samā▫i▫ā.
> Renouncing her self-centeredness, she attains her Husband Lord, and remains merged in the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
> 
> ਸਾ ਧਨ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕਸਾਈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
> Sā ḏẖan sabaḏ suhā▫ī parem kasā▫ī anṯar parīṯ pi▫ārī.
> That soul bride is adorned, who is attracted by His Love, and who treasures the Love of her Beloved within her heart.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਮੇਲਿ ਲਈ ਪਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਾਹਿ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
> Nānak sā ḏẖan mel la▫ī pir āpe sācẖai sāhi savārī. ||1||
> O Nanak, the Lord blends that soul bride with Himself; the True King adorns her. ||1||
> 
> ਨਿਰਗੁਣਵੰਤੜੀਏ ਪਿਰੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਹਦੂਰੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
> Nirguṇvanṯ▫ṛī▫e pir ḏekẖ haḏūre rām.
> O worthless bride, see your Husband Lord ever-present.
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਮੁਈਏ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
> Gurmukẖ jinī rāvi▫ā mu▫ī▫e pir rav rahi▫ā bẖarpūre rām.
> One who, as Gurmukh, enjoys her Husband Lord, O mortal bride, knows Him to be all-pervading everywhere.
> 
> 
> ਪਿਰੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਵੇਖੁ ਹਜੂਰੇ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
> Pir rav rahi▫ā bẖarpūre vekẖ hajūre jug jug eko jāṯā.
> The Lord is all-pervading everywhere; behold Him ever-present. Throughout the ages, know Him as the One.
> 
> ਧਨ ਬਾਲੀ ਭੋਲੀ ਪਿਰੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਰਾਵੈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ॥
> Ḏẖan bālī bẖolī pir sahj rāvai mili▫ā karam biḏẖāṯā.
> The young, innocent bride enjoys her Husband Lord; she meets Him, the Architect of karma.
> 
> 
> ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਭਾਖਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਸਰਿ ਰਹੀ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ॥
> Jin har ras cẖākẖi▫ā sabaḏ subẖākẖi▫ā har sar rahī bẖarpūre.
> One who tastes the sublime essence of the Lord, and utters the sublime Word of the Shabad, remains immersed in the Lord's Ambrosial Pool.
> 
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਸਾ ਪਿਰ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਬਦੇ ਰਹੈ ਹਦੂਰੇ ॥੨॥
> Nānak kāmaṇ sā pir bẖāvai sabḏe rahai haḏūre. ||2||
> O Nanak, that soul bride is pleasing to her Husband Lord, who, through the Shabad, remains in His Presence.||2|
> 
> ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਾਇ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਮੁਈਏ ਜਿਨੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
> Sohāgaṇī jā▫e pūcẖẖahu mu▫ī▫e jinī vicẖahu āp gavā▫i▫ā.
> Go and ask the happy soul-brides, O mortal bride, who have eradicated their self-conceit from within.
> 
> ਪਿਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਮੁਈਏ ਜਿਨੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਨ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
> Pir kā hukam na pā▫i▫o mu▫ī▫e jinī vicẖahu āp na gavā▫i▫ā.
> Those who have not eradicated their self-conceit, O mortal bride, do not realize the Hukam of their Husband Lord's Command.
> 
> ਜਿਨੀ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਤਿਨੀ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਰੰਗ ਸਿਉ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ॥
> Jinī āp gavā▫i▫ā ṯinī pir pā▫i▫ā rang si▫o ralī▫ā māṇai.
> Those who eradicate their self-conceit, obtain their Husband Lord; they delight in His Love.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is the tuk you singled out, forgetting all the other tuks. You focus on the word "repeat" and don't take in the word "Shabad." Do not feel bad because many of us do that. *
> 
> ਸਦਾ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਹਜੇ ਮਾਤੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥
> Saḏā rang rāṯī sėhje māṯī an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇai.
> Ever imbued with His Love, in perfect poise and grace, she repeats His Name, night and day.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Shabad continues*
> 
> ਕਾਮਣਿ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਸੁਭਾਇਆ ॥
> Kāmaṇ vadbẖāgī anṯar liv lāgī har kā parem subẖā▫i▫ā.
> Very fortunate is that bride, who focuses her consciousness on Him; her Lord's Love is so sweet to her.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਸਹਜੇ ਰਾਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
> Nānak kāmaṇ sėhje rāṯī jin sacẖ sīgār baṇā▫i▫ā. ||3||
> O Nanak, that soul-bride who is adorned with Truth, is imbued with her Lord's Love, in the state of perfect poise. ||3||
> 
> ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਮੁਈਏ ਤੂ ਚਲੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਏ ॥
> Ha▫umai mār mu▫ī▫e ṯū cẖal gur kai bẖā▫e.
> Overcome your egotism, O mortal bride, and walk in the Guru's Way.
> 
> ਹਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਰਾਵਹਿ ਸਦਾ ਮੁਈਏ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਏ ॥
> Har var rāvėh saḏā mu▫ī▫e nij gẖar vāsā pā▫e.
> Thus you shall ever enjoy your Husband Lord, O mortal bride, and obtain an abode in the home of your own inner being.
> 
> ]ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਏ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਏ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
> Nij gẖar vāsā pā▫e sabaḏ vajā▫e saḏā suhāgaṇ nārī.
> Obtaining an abode in the home of her inner being, she vibrates the Word of the Shabad, and is a happy soul-bride forever.
> 
> 
> ਪਿਰੁ ਰਲੀਆਲਾ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਬਾਲਾ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕੰਤਿ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥
> Pir ralī▫ālā joban bālā an▫ḏin kanṯ savārī.
> The Husband Lord is delightful, and forever young; night and day, He embellishes His bride.
> 
> 
> ਹਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਸੋਹਾਗੋ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੋ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਏ ॥
> Har var sohāgo masṯak bẖāgo sacẖai sabaḏ suhā▫e.
> Her Husband Lord activates the destiny written on her forehead, and she is adorned with the True Shabad.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਜਾ ਚਲੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਏ ॥੪॥੧॥
> Nānak kāmaṇ har rang rāṯī jā cẖalai saṯgur bẖā▫e. ||4||1||
> O Nanak, the soul-bride is imbued with the Love of the Lord, when she walks according to the Will of the True Guru. ||4||1||
Click to expand...


Those who are men and who are women, they become happy brides when merged in the Lord's love. Nothing in this shabad states or implies one should say Waheguru over and over again. Your eye falls to the word "repeat" and  Karminder Singh Dhillon explains that we wrongly take this to mean chant, recite, or say a 'name of God' over and over again.

Look at what is missed from that point of view. I highlighted in blue all the places where Guruji tells us how to be the happy soul-bride. Chanting is not mentioned. Repeat occurs only one time. But Guru ji is very clear about what is needed. The shabad itself is the word. The shabad itself must be the focus of steadfast comprehension and attention. 
*
Through the Shabad we become the suhagan, happy soul-bride*. If someone were to chant Waheguru day and night minute by minute what time attention or energy would remain for all those other things that this shabad brings forth as the path to Waheguru - which I have highlighted in red. All of those things which are in red are active states of focused mind. When and how does one make this kind of effort by repeating repeating repeating? The idea lacks common sense.

One last thought of a practical nature. In all that we know from the sakhis and from Bhai Gurdas ji, we learn that Guru Nanak himself was not chanting or repeating HIs Name name over and over again. He was busy with pilgrimages, preaching, building Kartapur to be a spiritual center, writing hymns and composing kirtan, tending his herds and shepherding his human flock. He sets the standard for "repeating" God's name through righteous action, not through chanting or repeating. That is the point of the essay by Dr. Karmandir Singh Dhillon ji.

Anyone who wants to repeat repeat repeat should certainly do that. However, ShabadGuru should not be distorted to be an endorsement.


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## Ishna

> *Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
> Article IV
> 
> *1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).


 
Even the Punjabi uses the word 'jap' in this passage which translates to "meditate, repeat" and not "chant".


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## chazSingh

ActsOfGod said:


> Thanks for all your input...
> 
> Does this mean to say that repeating "Waheguru" over and over again as we've been taught to do is actually not prescribed by Gurbani?  It's so habitual now that I just say "Waheguru" repeatedly whenever I'm driving or standing in line or doing some chores, etc.
> 
> Still very confused about how to actually do simran.  And what did Guru Nanak Sahib mean in Japji Sahib when he wrote "Amrit Vayla such nao vadiai vichar".  I got the first part, Amrit Vayla, but the second part, how exactly should one do vichar?  Help please from anyone who can shed any light on this.
> 
> Guru Fateh!



Acts of God Ji,

there are some great links on my personal Blog about Amrit Vela simran:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/blogs/chazsingh/8301-daily-amrit-vela-blog-difficulties-joys.html


if you like repeating 'Waheguru' in your mind throughout the day, then do it... it is better than repeating "money, money, money" or a million other things 

the Shabad Waheguru obviously has a deep connection with you and is a link to God so keep focus on it ji...

My Message to you form my own personal journey through Amrit Vela, is if you have the perseverance and patience, you will not regret spending some quiet time daily doing some Simran and focussing your attention/Consciousness to 'WITHIN' yourself.

I have never looked back, and nothing will ever change my mind on it


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## chazSingh

SaintSoldier1699 said:


> Great article.  It's unfortunate that 95% of Sikhs are happy to do the mentioned chanting.  Flicking through Sikh channels it's hard not to find the chanting,  50 day,  24 hour simran sessions in order for good luck, or some other wanted change.   The number of parcharak's promoting this are in abundance.
> 
> I always feel a bit cheated going to the Gurdwara for someone to spent 10-15+ minutes just chanting instead of delving into the deep ocean of pearls Guru Granth Sahib ji.  I mean they can't complain that they don't have enough content to use!



I just so happened to go to the local Gurdwara where they are currently doing a 50 day Simran event (or whatever you want to call it) 

*Positive* things i noticed

1. Have never seen so much Sangat ever, which was immense (regardless of their personal reasons for attending)

2. Sitting with my eyes closed when the whole Sangat said "waheguru" - I have never felt so much energy flow though me..through all my time delving though the Sri Guru Granth Sahib - I have never felt more connected to my Guru.

3. My Wife, who in her own word is "not interested in Sikhi or religion" for some reason attended with me...she found herself (in her own words) "immersed in Waheguru"...was "repeating waheguru without any conscious control" she described what she said was like falling asleep and having a very peaceful dream which has left her contemplating God since. How great Waheguru is 

4. Listening to people at the gurdwara, many spoke of the immense energy felt during the Simran. Even if 5% of the people are inspired to seek god further, then what a great Sangat gathering this has been

Sure, many people will be attending to gain some 'Good Luck', a 'Better job' ... 'healing of an illness'....but if a few are inspired by Guru Ji to seek further and continue after the 50 Day Simran, then wow, how worthwhile this has been.


God bless ji


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## spnadmin

chazSingh ji

Many have felt a similar surge of energy when chanting the Gayatri mantra at interfaith gatherings. _Om bhur bhuvah svah
tat-savitur varenyam
bhargo devasya dhimahi
dhiyo yo nah pracodayat _​
You say,


> 2. Sitting with my eyes closed when the whole Sangat said "waheguru" - I have never felt so much energy flow though me..through all my time delving though the Sri Guru Granth Sahib - I have never felt more connected to my Guru.
> 
> 3. My Wife, who in her own word is "not interested in Sikhi or religion" for some reason attended with me...she found herself (in her own words) "immersed in Waheguru"...was "repeating waheguru without any conscious control" she described what she said was like falling asleep and having a very peaceful dream which has left her contemplating God since. How great Waheguru is




Would you explain how your description follows from Gurmat or a careful reading of ShabadGuru? The  author of the OP has argued that Simran within the experience of ShabadGuru is not the same thing as sitting with your eyes closed.

Perhaps I misunderstand and you are not trying to connect the Waheguru experience to ShabadGuru.


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## Harry Haller

Years ago, at a Hedonists society I was fond of attending, I recall we all sat round a table and chanted the same word again and again, I found it also quite exciting and although not peaceful, (but then peace was not what we were chanting for), quite brain numbing....


It is interesting to note that the very practice that Guru Nanakji tried to get us away from, ie inducement of an almost hypnotic state through oral ingestion, or indeed mental and verbal gymnastics, is now a recognised state within Sikhism to become at one with Creator. 

Sikhism is different, it was always supposed to be different, not just a bit different, but 180 degrees different, it taught that there are no short cuts, no magical ceremonies, just study and practice. Study the SGGS and practice it in your life.


----------



## chazSingh

> spnadmin;193308
> 
> Many have felt a similar surge of energy when chanting the Gayatri mantra at interfaith gatherings. _Om bhur bhuvah svah
> tat-savitur varenyam
> bhargo devasya dhimahi
> dhiyo yo nah pracodayat
> 
> 
> _​



Hi SPNAdmin Ji

I cannot talk much/compare about what others have felt with other mantra 1. because i haven't sat through the same experience as them 2. i havnt meditated on any other mantra other than "waheguru" and other Gurbani shabads.

My comments that you have highlighted were just reporting some positives that i observered from attending some days of a 50 day Simran program.



> The  author of the OP has argued that Simran within the experience of ShabadGuru is not the same thing as sitting with your eyes closed.
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstand and you are not trying to connect the Waheguru experience to ShabadGuru.



I think the whole of Gurbani is trying to 'awaken' us all in order that whilst we experience the Ego in its full manifestation (which has seperated us from almost complete knowledge of Gods existance) we can start to remember the truth of our self and the reality of God.

As you say "simran is remembering" so i'm guessing the remembering will take place in many forms for each individual.

I am not as learned as many on this forum when it comes to gurbani...
i beleive most methods will be useful in some way providing your thirst is there.

the thirst, combined with the vibrational potency of Gurbani will no doubt be felt by God and God will reveal the truth (at which point, the real Simran/Remembering begins)

I don't know if that answers your question...i find it very hard to say that one method is different to the other because i havn't gone through all methods. I just find it hard to not recommend Waheguru Simran when so many people just call it repeating and parroting, when i know personally it so sooooooo much more 

I suppose each person will find something that allows them to hit the frequency and state of mind required to turn that cup the right way round and receive the grace that was already there.


----------



## chazSingh

people often say why do we need the whole of Gurbani if you think that just the shabad Waheguru is required.

I say, both are critical. Sri Guru Granth sahib provides my anchor...it tells me throughout my inner and outer journey that i am not going crazy, that the things i experience, see, feel are real...that i must continue moving forward, fighting with my corrupt mind, to never give up.... reading it, contemplating it, feeling its vibration, tells me i have a true, non judgemental, forgiving, loving companion through my journey to truth discovery....even if the world thinks i'm crazy 

God Bless


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## spnadmin

That's great chazSingh ji

A deeply sincere answer. However, Waheguru simran is not from Gurbani. Tuks often quoted to show that it is are usually quoted out of context. Thanks for not doing that.


----------



## ActsOfGod

Thank you everyone for your insights and wisdom, I appreciate it.  Yesterday at the Gurudwara I asked a Singh about this same question, and he concurred that chanting is not prescribed by Guru Sahib anywhere in SGGS.  But he also stated that it's better to say Waheguru than not saying anything at all.  Or saying something worse (like cursing someone out, for instance).

I think I am slowly coming to understand that there are many and varied viewpoints on this issue.  It seems as personal as people's individual personalities.

However, it has become clear in my mind that Guru Nanak Sahib never endorsed chanting "Waheguru", which answers part of my original question.  Many, many thanks for clearing that up.

I guess that my "Naam Simran" could comprise of reading the morning Nitnem at AmritVela.  That would certainly qualify, and at the same time I would be giving my mind something of substance to chew on and think about.  Thus I wouldn't fall into the vacuous empty space of  mindless chanting.

I was curious, though, about mindful chanting.  Where does that fall on the spectrum?

And finally (sorry to be asking so many questions), in terms of Nam Simran as I now understand it, personally it would be better for me to recite a shabad or paaht where in the past I used to recite "Waheguru".  The only stumbling block I have is, I would want to do this when I was out and about in daily life, for example driving or waiting in line, etc.  And usually we don't want to interrupt a paaht once we've started it or stop and not complete it.  But daily activities are constantly being interrupted.  Suppose I begin Chaupai Sahib paaht while waiting in line and I get to the counter before I complete it?  I don't want to abruptly stop the paaht, so I have a little conundrum here.  Or maybe there are some short shabads or paaht's that I can memorize that would be suitable for such occasions?  Is it ok to recite only a few verses of Bani?

Thank you everyone for your insights, I really appreciate it!  It has been invaluable to me.

Guru Fateh!


----------



## chazSingh

ActsOfGod said:


> Thank you everyone for your insights and wisdom, I appreciate it.  Yesterday at the Gurudwara I asked a Singh about this same question, and he concurred that chanting is not prescribed by Guru Sahib anywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  But he also stated that it's better to say Waheguru than not saying anything at all.  Or saying something worse (like cursing someone out, for instance).
> 
> I think I am slowly coming to understand that there are many and varied viewpoints on this issue.  It seems as personal as people's individual personalities.
> 
> However, it has become clear in my mind that Guru Nanak Sahib never endorsed chanting "Waheguru", which answers part of my original question.  Many, many thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> I guess that my "Naam Simran" could comprise of reading the morning Nitnem at AmritVela.  That would certainly qualify, and at the same time I would be giving my mind something of substance to chew on and think about.  Thus I wouldn't fall into the vacuous empty space of  mindless chanting.
> 
> I was curious, though, about mindful chanting.  Where does that fall on the spectrum?
> 
> And finally (sorry to be asking so many questions), in terms of Nam Simran as I now understand it, personally it would be better for me to recite a shabad or paaht where in the past I used to recite "Waheguru".  The only stumbling block I have is, I would want to do this when I was out and about in daily life, for example driving or waiting in line, etc.  And usually we don't want to interrupt a paaht once we've started it or stop and not complete it.  But daily activities are constantly being interrupted.  Suppose I begin Chaupai Sahib paaht while waiting in line and I get to the counter before I complete it?  I don't want to abruptly stop the paaht, so I have a little conundrum here.  Or maybe there are some short shabads or paaht's that I can memorize that would be suitable for such occasions?  Is it ok to recite only a few verses of Bani?
> 
> Thank you everyone for your insights, I really appreciate it!  It has been invaluable to me.
> 
> Guru Fateh!



if you can tell the difference between 

saying "i love you" to someone just verbally and mentally

and 

saying "i love you" to someone and actually feeling it deep in your heart...

then you should know the difference between mindless chanting and mindful chanting...

then you'll have a connection from Soul -> Mind -> to physical word manifestation...

while the other person may just hear the words "I love you" ... on a personal level, the words are manifesting something much much more that comes from your soul...and seeing as God is within your very being...he'll know the difference...

whether its saying "waheguru" or any Gurbani


just my thoughts ji...


----------



## spnadmin

ActsOfGod ji

There are many different options for you. I understand how it completely turns things upside down when reciting or even reading a prayer and then being interrupted. Don't try simran when it competes with a daily routine. 

Personally, trying to do simran in a supermarket line also turns things upside down. Make a plan. List all the ways in which simran are possible: studying a shabad, reciting a shabad, taking cyber-hukamnama and reading the bani that goes with it, doing a sehaj paat where you read a page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji a day, for starters. Pick one thing from that list and set time aside to study, think, write and ask questions. Once you work out the wrinkles on that one, pick another thing to add to your simran. Be practical. Just as your friendly Singh says, better to say "Waheguru" than a curse word, so it is better to do one thing well so it satisfiesyou instead of winding you up in frustrations.

I myself began this journey with the daily hukamnama. I printed out the hukamnama and read as much as I could about its meaning, and the ideas in it. I kept notes, everything together in a loose-leaf book. Then I moved from there. Today there is so much more. You can take the hukamnama and then find a blog or internet site where the shabads are explained. Make this your private time. Treat yourself to quality time with Guruji. It pays off. The important thing is to feel for those moments completely immersed in the ShabadGuru. Mine was only one approach. There are others.


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## spnadmin

Here is something for you. Very simple. Inni Kaur recently suffered the death of her mother. Always a Kaur it was with this death that she began a new path of discovering her heart. Everyday she takes the hukam and keeps a log of her feelings. It is so simple; yet you can make it as broad and as deep as you want.
Today’s Hukam, Darbar Sahib, Amritsar – Monday, November 4, 2013




> O friend, such is the Divine whom I have obtained. The Divine does not leave me, and always keeps me company. Meeting the Guru, night and day, I sing Divine Praises. ||1|| Pause ||
> 
> I met the Divine, who has blessed me with all comforts; the Divine does not leave me to go anywhere else. I have seen the mortals of many and various types, but they are not equal to even a hair of my Beloved. ||1||
> 
> The Divine palace is so beautiful! Divine gate so wonderful! The celestial melody of the sound current resounds there. Says Nanak, I enjoy eternal bliss; I have obtained a permanent place in the home of my Beloved.  || 2 || 1 || 27 ||
> 
> [Guru Arjan, Raag Dayv-Gandhaari, GGS: 533]
> 
> 
> 
> My eyes mist as I listen to today’s hukam.
> 
> I feel Guru has lifted a veil and revealed the consciousness of one who has been blessed with divine union.
> 
> The essence: “Blessed with divine union, I have gained an eternal place in the home of my beloved. I feel the constant presence of the divine. The eternal never-ending sound resounds within.”
> 
> Head bows …
> 
> Longing increases …
> 
> May mehar be bestowed …
> 
> I beg …




Everyday she does this and it is posted in SikhChic. Anyone can do this. And see the word "mehar" -- that can be something to follow up in other ways.

http://www.sikhchic.com/columnists/the_morning_hukam_a_meditation_monday_november_4_2013


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

The reading of the Five Nitnem Banis daily (required as per SRM) is just like a student doing a last minute reading of his/her NOTES before the EXAM...Nitnem is  simply a DISCIPLINE...reading the Japji for example..BEFORE GOING OUT into the WORLD and begin *PRACTISING* what the JAPJI requires !!

A Sikh who dutifully "reads" the Japji..BUT then DISREGARDS/IGNORES/FORGETS all about its MESSAGE while going about his DAY..is like the student who read his NOTES..BUT then NEVER ENTERED the EXAM ROOM at all..but LOITERED outside in the corridors or in a nearby MALL...!!!..and then the next morning dutifully reads his notes once again...again and again..till the day he dies...a *FAILED STUDENT*..

A SIKH who dutifully reads his Japjis and Rehrasses daily....for an entire LIFE TIME..BUT NEVER practiced any of its TRUTHS...is a FAILED SIKH. The FIRST and Most Fundamental of the TRUTHS in Japji coems at the very beginning... SATNAM...SAACH...AAD SACH...JUGAAD SACH..SACH SACH SACH...and thats what we are supposed to be holding on tightly every SINGLE MOMENT of our LIVES....but how many of us can TRUTHFULLY CLAIM...that we hold to TRUTH...if not every single moment at least for a few moments DAILY...increasing the AMOUNT daily...Thats the CAPITAL Guru ji wants us to have in OUR ACCOUNTS when we DEPART this world...Do we have that CAPITAL...


----------



## ActsOfGod

This has been a time of learning and spiritual growth for me.  I have some new learnings and beliefs as a result of this inquiry and your very generous dialogue with me.  Sikhi is way deeper than I had ever comprehended.

I have learned that there is no "one right way".  There are multiples approaches and each person does what makes sense to him or her, and what resonates with them the most.  At the end of the day, it's not about following protocol as much as it's about the real connection with the Creator.  Since we are all individuals, the many and myriad ways in which we connect to our Beloved will also be as individual as we are.  There is no one "right" way that can be used as a formula, or recipe.

Sikhi is all about love.  We can see from any love story that the lover and beloved don't need anyone to tell them how to connect with each other.  Even if the whole world is against them, still they go to meet each other.  Sikhi is the ultimate Love story.  We are all born with this innate sense inside us, we can all tune it to that love.

I have been asking about how to do it, because I was concerned that I might be doing it wrong.  In fact I was doing it wrong.  But not cause I was following one prescription and not the other.  In fact, Guru Sahib didn't give a procedure, and that should have been a clue.

This at once makes it sooooo compelling and just about the most difficult thing.  Because there's nobody in your way.  And because you're going to have to put in some real work, some real effort here.  Following a recipe is easy, execution of steps 1 through n is easy.  But actually building everything from scratch, that's a real challenge.  It completely frees you from any and all burdens, but at the same time everything is up to you.  Because everything really *is* up to you.

Thank you everyone.

Guru Fateh!


----------



## chazSingh

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The reading of the Five Nitnem Banis daily (required as per SRM) is just like a student doing a last minute reading of his/her NOTES before the EXAM...Nitnem is  simply a DISCIPLINE...reading the Japji for example..BEFORE GOING OUT into the WORLD and begin *PRACTISING* what the JAPJI requires !!
> 
> A Sikh who dutifully "reads" the Japji..BUT then DISREGARDS/IGNORES/FORGETS all about its MESSAGE while going about his DAY..is like the student who read his NOTES..BUT then NEVER ENTERED the EXAM ROOM at all..but LOITERED outside in the corridors or in a nearby MALL...!!!..and then the next morning dutifully reads his notes once again...again and again..till the day he dies...a *FAILED STUDENT*..
> 
> A SIKH who dutifully reads his Japjis and Rehrasses daily....for an entire LIFE TIME..BUT NEVER practiced any of its TRUTHS...is a FAILED SIKH. The FIRST and Most Fundamental of the TRUTHS in Japji coems at the very beginning... SATNAM...SAACH...AAD SACH...JUGAAD SACH..SACH SACH SACH...and thats what we are supposed to be holding on tightly every SINGLE MOMENT of our LIVES....but how many of us can TRUTHFULLY CLAIM...that we hold to TRUTH...if not every single moment at least for a few moments DAILY...increasing the AMOUNT daily...Thats the CAPITAL Guru ji wants us to have in OUR ACCOUNTS when we DEPART this world...Do we have that CAPITAL...



Very nicely explained Giani ji,

For me, after i do my amrit vela...the remainder of the day is where i really have a chance to live Gurbani in my thoughts and Actions...the true test..

The rest of the day allows me to experience God all around me, in others, to serve others...

And my amrit Vela gives me the chance to experience God deep within my very being on a one to one personal level...


----------



## chazSingh

ActsOfGod said:


> This has been a time of learning and spiritual growth for me.  I have some new learnings and beliefs as a result of this inquiry and your very generous dialogue with me.  Sikhi is way deeper than I had ever comprehended.
> 
> I have learned that there is no "one right way".  There are multiples approaches and each person does what makes sense to him or her, and what resonates with them the most.  At the end of the day, it's not about following protocol as much as it's about the real connection with the Creator.  Since we are all individuals, the many and myriad ways in which we connect to our Beloved will also be as individual as we are.  There is no one "right" way that can be used as a formula, or recipe.
> 
> Sikhi is all about love.  We can see from any love story that the lover and beloved don't need anyone to tell them how to connect with each other.  Even if the whole world is against them, still they go to meet each other.  Sikhi is the ultimate Love story.  We are all born with this innate sense inside us, we can all tune it to that love.
> 
> I have been asking about how to do it, because I was concerned that I might be doing it wrong.  In fact I was doing it wrong.  But not cause I was following one prescription and not the other.  In fact, Guru Sahib didn't give a procedure, and that should have been a clue.
> 
> This at once makes it sooooo compelling and just about the most difficult thing.  Because there's nobody in your way.  And because you're going to have to put in some real work, some real effort here.  Following a recipe is easy, execution of steps 1 through n is easy.  But actually building everything from scratch, that's a real challenge.  It completely frees you from any and all burdens, but at the same time everything is up to you.  Because everything really *is* up to you.
> 
> Thank you everyone.
> 
> Guru Fateh!



you are 100% right ji,

Guru Ji says Look Within and you will find Him...

How you look 'Within' is your path..unique to you...just be in the moment..and if your heart is calling out, you will utter whatever He wants you to utter, and the heavens will open up before you (literally)


God bless you on your journey


----------



## roopsidhu

A very few of us do real simran, majority of us just join the loud chantings like brahmanical rites. Simran is remembering him and try to dive in the ocean of guru's words to get some enlightening ideas and power


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## chazSingh

roopsidhu said:


> A very few of us do real simran, majority of us just join the loud chantings like brahmanical rites. Simran is remembering him and try to dive in the ocean of guru's words to get some enlightening ideas and power



Just some questions Ji...

how do you go about Remembering God?
Are the enlightening ideas or power given to us? or do we try to get them ourselves?

When people lose their memory due to an accident... various methods are used to try and get the person to remember the knowledge they have lost..

reading past stories...visiting places the person once visited....etc etc...
Its not the method that is called 'Remembering'
the actual remembering occurs seemingly spontaniously from 'within', and the person says "wow, this is who i really am, this is me, this is my life....i Remember now"

How many of us have had this Simran, this awakening to the truth? how many remember what we have forgotten? 

until this Grace is bestowed upon us by Waheguru...all we can do is truthful deeds, and focus some of our dhiaan/Attention on Shabad...and hopefully the shabad guides our consciousness to complete knowledge truth and full experience of the truth which we have forgotton...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

roopsidhu said:


> A very few of us do real simran, majority of us just join the loud chantings like brahmanical rites. Simran is remembering him and try to dive in the ocean of guru's words to get some enlightening ideas and power




Roop Ji..Back in the old days...when pen and paper were real luxuries...people had to make do with their MEMORY...then came papaer and pencil..and people gave up some of their "MEMORY" replaced by PAPER...secretaries had to write down word for word..then came SHORTHAND...etc etc etc..."MEMORY" became a bad word...better keep ones BRAIN UNUSED !!

I remember the early days of Computers...we had a blinking CURSOR..and a BLACK SCREEN....each "Command" was TYPED in letter by letter..a dot missing....and the entire Humpty Dumpty would crash tot he floor !! A Missing/torn tiny hole and a thousand perfect cards stacked would STOP dead...People MEMORISED short cuts..Commands..!!!

TODAY..we click a mouse click..and everything si AUTOMATED..Drivers, Installers, everything gets done...no more Commands and cursors blinking on blank screens..just the OK Button !!

THATS how SIMRAN has morphed in Sikhism..early ON..Sikhs beginning with GURU NANAK JI..."MEMORISED"...fully...each WORD was constantly in MEMORY...PRACTISE practise and more practise...thats why their FACES SHONE...GLOWED...

UNLIKE todays ZOMBIE SIKHS...whose listless faces..tell the whole story...all they do is PRESS START..and then wait for the OK Button. Task COMPLETED. What happened in between ?? who cares...its all nitty gritty...Early people LISTENED....GURU NANAK JI and Bhai mardana SPOKE a whole lot more than any Ragis/Parcharaks today...and the people LISTENED..real GOOD...and thats why they CHANGED...SAJJAN THUGGH just LISTENED to ONE SHABAD..and he Transformed from a serial killer to a good HUMAN BEING...ZOMBIE SIKHS have THOUSANDS of HOURS of MP3 Files of Shabads, kathas, whatever..on their IPads, ThinkPads, whatever...BUT they NEVER LISTEN..not really !! Just Imagine what Sajjan Thuggh would be IF he had an IPAD with 2 TB HDD full of GURU NANAK JIS SHABADS !!! I have come across ZOMBIE SIKHS constantly PLUGGED EARS...but USELESS HUMANS..cheater, liars, fraudsters..drug lords, drug carriers, insurance fraudsters...name it SIKHS have IT..

I personally know one such Zombie Sikh..epitome of Spirituality...constantly Gutka in hand..rosarie being twiddled in  other hand...mumbling waheguru waheguru..he even answers the phone by chanting  Waheguru instead of Hello..and then you should see how he callously announces pay cuts of his workers.."You came late 10 minutes..Cut $4....hey you..you didnt come at all..day pay cut....hey you..you were snoozing at your post..$10 cut...hey you..uniform dirty cut $7..end of MONTH..each fellow gets paid only about 50%...hook or crook..he squeezes 50% each month..so easily and while ferring Mala and reading Sukhmani Sahib..with his eyes (and listening to same via earphones)..24/7 !! He takes NO PRISONERS..meaning no EXCUSES..dont care if you fell..your car had an accidnet..you were mugged..your wife died..NO EXCUSES..just PAY CUT !! In the early Morning Gurdwara 5.30 am DARKNESS NAAM JAPP SESSION..he is always the FIRST.

RAGIS..in matching turbans and shiny clothes (Sajjan Thuggh..OOJal keha chilkanna !!) bigger and bigger Mahaan Kirtan darbars..SHOW CASED KIRTAN PERFORMANCES..Kathas CDs DVds by the ZILLION..thousands upon thousands of AKHAND PAATHS being RUN like TV SERIALS that never end...Naam rass darbars, nagar Kirtans, Naam japp sessions, chantings, head shakings, arms up in the air nam sessions..you name it ZOMBIE SIKHS have it...

its ALL AUTOMATED.   ROBOTICS IN ACTION.


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## SaintSoldier1699

I think it would be great to have a Sikh Smiley showing a Zombie Sikh!  There are so many about more dangerous than the flesh eating ones!


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## chazSingh

SaintSoldier1699 said:


> I think it would be great to have a Sikh Smiley showing a Zombie Sikh! There are so many about more dangerous than the flesh eating ones!


 

Unless we are fully awoken by Guru Ji, we are all (at varying degrees) zombies


----------



## chazSingh

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I personally know one such Zombie Sikh..epitome of Spirituality...constantly Gutka in hand..rosarie being twiddled in other hand...mumbling waheguru waheguru..he even answers the phone by chanting Waheguru instead of Hello..and then you should see how he callously announces pay cuts of his workers.."You came late 10 minutes..Cut $4....hey you..you didnt come at all..day pay cut....hey you..you were snoozing at your post..$10 cut...hey you..uniform dirty cut $7..end of MONTH..each fellow gets paid only about 50%...hook or crook..he squeezes 50% each month..so easily and while ferring Mala and reading Sukhmani Sahib..with his eyes (and listening to same via earphones)..24/7 !! He takes NO PRISONERS..meaning no EXCUSES..dont care if you fell..your car had an accidnet..you were mugged..your wife died..NO EXCUSES..just PAY CUT !! In the early Morning Gurdwara 5.30 am DARKNESS NAAM JAPP SESSION..he is always the FIRST.


 

Giani Ji,

Just because he is the first for the 5.30am naam japp session doesnt mean all his daily actions are going to be 100% honest and truthful...

He is probably putting the effort into his naam japna, because he knows his shortfalls and seeks Guru Ji's help to overcome his lifelong bad habits...

old habbits die hard...sometimes the greatest surrender and distruction of the Ego is when one falls to his feet and accepts that certain things he is unable to overcome by himself (Ego)

(I hope in his internal dialogue with God, that this is his reason for the naam japna or whatever else he does to cleanse himself)

I do my Simran in the early hours because not because i deem myself as a good sikh, but because *I* *Know i have serious bad habits and am strung like a puppet by the 5 thieves....i cry out to Guru Ji to ferry me across this terryfying world ocean...*

of course in the meantime, the world will look upon me with eyes of judgement and say "look at him, he does his amrit vela, but he still does this that and the other...and he calls himseld a good sikh, pathetic"

But i know the judgement isnt from guru ji, and day by day the light He shines internally is cleaning me bit by bit

 (A smiling zombie sikh - who seeks to be awoken)


----------



## harmanpreet singh

ActsOfGod said:


> This has been a time of learning and spiritual growth for me.  I have some new learnings and beliefs as a result of this inquiry and your very generous dialogue with me.  Sikhi is way deeper than I had ever comprehended.
> 
> I have learned that there is no "one right way".  There are multiples approaches and each person does what makes sense to him or her, and what resonates with them the most.  At the end of the day, it's not about following protocol as much as it's about the real connection with the Creator.  Since we are all individuals, the many and myriad ways in which we connect to our Beloved will also be as individual as we are.  There is no one "right" way that can be used as a formula, or recipe.
> 
> Sikhi is all about love.  We can see from any love story that the lover and beloved don't need anyone to tell them how to connect with each other.  Even if the whole world is against them, still they go to meet each other.  Sikhi is the ultimate Love story.  We are all born with this innate sense inside us, we can all tune it to that love.
> 
> I have been asking about how to do it, because I was concerned that I might be doing it wrong.  In fact I was doing it wrong.  But not cause I was following one prescription and not the other.  In fact, Guru Sahib didn't give a procedure, and that should have been a clue.
> 
> This at once makes it sooooo compelling and just about the most difficult thing.  Because there's nobody in your way.  And because you're going to have to put in some real work, some real effort here.  Following a recipe is easy, execution of steps 1 through n is easy.  But actually building everything from scratch, that's a real challenge.  It completely frees you from any and all burdens, but at the same time everything is up to you.  Because everything really *is* up to you.
> 
> Thank you everyone.
> 
> Guru Fateh!




thanks for lovely post , i enjoyed reading it !! blessings


----------



## ActsOfGod

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I personally know one such Zombie Sikh..epitome of Spirituality...constantly Gutka in hand..rosarie being twiddled in  other hand...mumbling waheguru waheguru..he even answers the phone by chanting  Waheguru instead of Hello..and then you should see how he callously announces pay cuts of his workers.."You came late 10 minutes..Cut $4....hey you..you didnt come at all..day pay cut....hey you..you were snoozing at your post..$10 cut...hey you..uniform dirty cut $7..end of MONTH..each fellow gets paid only about 50%...hook or crook..he squeezes 50% each month..so easily and while ferring Mala and reading Sukhmani Sahib..with his eyes (and listening to same via earphones)..24/7 !! He takes NO PRISONERS..meaning no EXCUSES..dont care if you fell..your car had an accidnet..you were mugged..your wife died..NO EXCUSES..just PAY CUT !! In the early Morning Gurdwara 5.30 am DARKNESS NAAM JAPP SESSION..he is always the FIRST.



Bhul chuk maaf karni ji, but the above sounds very judgmental of the person in question.  Whatever his shortcomings, surely we are not in a position to weigh and measure his actions and judge him?

Reading the above reminded me of the story of Scrooge.  Everyone always considered him a miser, and he himself believed that he was financially successful because he always pinched pennies.  But the real truth was that he was financially successful because he worked hard, kept meticulous records, and invested wisely with good rates of return.  It had nothing to do with being miserly -- that was just a red herring.

Even in the story above, I see a similar reflection.  I notice a few things about the individual.  He is the first in the Gurudwara at 5:30am, that tells you something about a person.  It's not easy to get up that early and consistently be at the Gurudwara.  In point of fact it's actually very, very difficult.  This person is very disciplined.  He had probably learned at some point or another in his life that self-discipline is important.  Perhaps his parents taught him or he learned in school.  In any case, he has made it a part of his life, and he does consider spirituality to be important (however he defines it according to his understanding).  Otherwise he would not be the first at the Gurudwara every morning at 5:30am.

Yes, perhaps he might be making it about significance and he may be wrapped up in ego (but aren't we all?)

I think he's very strict with his workers because he's equally hard on himself.  It's his worldview and how he believes things are to be.  I believe he treats everyone in the same way.  From his filter/lens, it's self-discipline, and that's how you succeed.

Personally, I know a lot of ex-military people who are similar and everything is about discipline.  Even after leaving the military, they are always punctual for meetings (to the minute).  It has become their identity.

I don't think he's a bad person at all.  I just think he has a different rule set than you or I.  But that doesn't mean he's not doing the right thing as per his spirituality.  Yes, if I want to judge I could say he needs to ditch the rosary/mala, but then when in my life have I been first to Gurudwara at 5:3am in the morning.  I can tell you the answer: never.  So if we get down to mud-slinging, who is the "better" Sikh here?  In Guru's eyes, there is no judgement.

Even when the Tenth King composed Tav Prasad Savaiye, he observed all the ignorance and blind rituals that the world was performing which were total garbage and completely useless, but he never once judged the people practicing those rituals.  He observed it and penned it down in the Bani, which we all recite today, but not once did he judge.  I find that so humbling that it makes me want to weep.

I believe we need to exercise more compassion in our lives.

Guru Fateh!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

ActsOfGod said:


> Bhul chuk maaf karni ji, but the above sounds very judgmental of the person in question.  Whatever his shortcomings, surely we are not in a position to weigh and measure his actions and judge him?
> 
> Reading the above reminded me of the story of Scrooge.  Everyone always considered him a miser, and he himself believed that he was financially successful because he always pinched pennies.  But the real truth was that he was financially successful because he worked hard, kept meticulous records, and invested wisely with good rates of return.  It had nothing to do with being miserly -- that was just a red herring.
> 
> Even in the story above, I see a similar reflection.  I notice a few things about the individual.  He is the first in the Gurudwara at 5:30am, that tells you something about a person.  It's not easy to get up that early and consistently be at the Gurudwara.  In point of fact it's actually very, very difficult.  This person is very disciplined.  He had probably learned at some point or another in his life that self-discipline is important.  Perhaps his parents taught him or he learned in school.  In any case, he has made it a part of his life, and he does consider spirituality to be important (however he defines it according to his understanding).  Otherwise he would not be the first at the Gurudwara every morning at 5:30am.
> 
> Yes, perhaps he might be making it about significance and he may be wrapped up in ego (but aren't we all?)
> 
> I think he's very strict with his workers because he's equally hard on himself.  It's his worldview and how he believes things are to be.  I believe he treats everyone in the same way.  From his filter/lens, it's self-discipline, and that's how you succeed.
> 
> Personally, I know a lot of ex-military people who are similar and everything is about discipline.  Even after leaving the military, they are always punctual for meetings (to the minute).  It has become their identity.
> 
> I don't think he's a bad person at all.  I just think he has a different rule set than you or I.  But that doesn't mean he's not doing the right thing as per his spirituality.  Yes, if I want to judge I could say he needs to ditch the rosary/mala, but then when in my life have I been first to Gurudwara at 5:3am in the morning.  I can tell you the answer: never.  So if we get down to mud-slinging, who is the "better" Sikh here?  In Guru's eyes, there is no judgement.
> 
> Even when the Tenth King composed Tav Prasad Savaiye, he observed all the ignorance and blind rituals that the world was performing which were total garbage and completely useless, but he never once judged the people practicing those rituals.  He observed it and penned it down in the Bani, which we all recite today, but not once did he judge.  I find that so humbling that it makes me want to weep.
> 
> I believe we need to exercise more compassion in our lives.
> 
> Guru Fateh!



Really and truly well said Jios. A beautiful post by a beautiful Sikh.
I am not judging this person ( as a matter of interest he is also one of my earliest and most able Gurbani students and now a good friend of the family and we come and go to each others homes most of the time..)..I just pointed out the different facets a person can posess..and what we all "see" could be "right/wrong/maybe/???". Yes ..i taught him the discipline..and he has become better than me....( maybe I am "jealous" he beats me to the first past the pole (Nishan sahib I mean..)??? that could be the reaosn i mentioned it ?? maybe ?? or that he keeps the gutka and mala and earphones plugged IN....I also tried to stop him breaking the fresh flowers off their stalks to matha tek daily (Paatee torreh maalnni...patee pattee JEEO...) but had no effect on his daily habit...although as  amatter of habit, he never does anything without asking my opinion/gurmatt viewpoint first thing...and i give it freely..

Thank you for the input jios..you have renewed my faith as many posters do it on a daily basis on SPN...that real SIKHI and Gurmatt are flourishing !!

Regards

Guru fateh.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

When Sikhs descend into Rituals and lip syncing...we begin to LOVE such songs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Hj0IEW_fQ#t=23

This Yamla jatt singer is LONGING for Guru nanak jis RETURN...and most Sikhs will say...wow..what a wonderful song..so full of love..BUT its actually GOING AGAINST EVERY SINGLE THING that Guru ji taught us when HE did come here in 1469...and He has LEFT us HIS LEGACY in the SGGS...but we refuse to beleive in the SGGS..and BEG GOD to send back Guru nanak in HUMAN FORM...so many such songs..AAVeehen Baba nanaka..is another famous one..

Please read what a writer ahs to say...( In Punjabi) But with quotes from SGGS as to WHAT Guru nanak ji ORDERED us to do..and what we really do...WHAT would Guru nanak ji say..IF he were to enter our GURDWARAS...sit down with us in Langgar..attend our WEDDINGS...would HE "RECOGNISE" his SIKHS..or see a whole lot of SAJJAN THUGGHS...a GURU who had told the DANCING GIRLS sent by Raja Shivnabh to "NOT DANCE" as He was not entertained by such...what would he say when he sees his Sikhs at WEDDING PARTIES ??..alcohol flowing like the River Ganges..even elderly sikhs drunk and flirting with the dancing girls..sikh ladies half naked...etc etc etc..is this where "SIMRAN: leads us towards ?? Mere LIP SYNC would do that...certainly.

Read the Punjabi article here:      

http://www.khalsanews.org/newspics/... Nov 13 Satguru Nanak aaja - TS Dupalpuri.htm


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## Taranjeet singh

[





> *Originally posted By Ishna*
> * Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
> Article IV *
> _1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).
> ._


Even the Punjabi uses the word 'jap' in this passage which translates to "meditate, repeat" and not "chant"
*Hi Sis*,
I have gone through your post and thank you for sharing your interpretation. 
With your permission , that I presume would be graciously granted, I am tempted to write the meaning of 'Jap' as the translators have given. 

I have no doubt that you would be aware of the following.

You may kindly refer to the ‘Angs’ that are give below. 
To make the post comprehensive and self contained, given below are the meanings assigned by Sant Singh Khalsa and Prof Sahib Singh ji in regard to 'Simran' and 'Dhayana' as well.

*Simran/ Simar  and Variants related  * 

Sant Singh khalasa........		Simran.......			        Page 749
Sahib Singh..............			Meditation....		        Page 749

*Jap and its variants related 	*
Sant Singh Khalsa ......		Chant and meditate....	Page 761, 762, 775
Sahib Singh.......				Jap...			  Page 761,762,775

Sant Singh Khalsa                        Chant                  Page 773
sahib  singh                                Jap                      Page 773  
*Dhayana and Variants related	*
Sant Singh Khalsa	.....		Meditate......		Page 760, 776
Sahib Singh.........		Jap.....			Page 760,776

Sant Singh Khalsa	.....		Meditate..... 		Page 777
Sahib Singh.....			Simran........ 		Page 777

The only idea was to to look at as to how the translators have used the various expressions and as to how Jap, simran and dhyana have an over lapping pattern in so far as their usage and meaning is concerned.

The second idea was to emphasize that the word ‘waheguru’ has been used at various places in Sikh Rehat Maryada that is ancilriical document for all of us and sikhs  and the Learned author have emphasized that the term ‘waheguru’ finds little place in Guru Granth and probably should not be used. He has almost discarded this term indirectly. Buit it is  is very well accepted by all sikhs whether Khalsa or even sehajdharis. 

The term ‘waheguru’ has a customary meaning for Sikhs and is about 500 years old. It is well ingrained in all of us. Even if it does not find extensive usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the customs and old traditions that would guide us to take 'waheguru, as the only term For Name of God/Creator. The term is of significance to all of us.  

The word ‘waheguru’ to Sikhs is like word ‘Allah’ to Muslims.Old customs and conventions cannot be disregarded. It is that principle that is used and employed while enacting various laws and statutes. 

You should forgive me if you find some inconvenience in reading  the table that I could not properly present/draw. 
Let us give rest to discussion as I have to give a suitable reply to the article [given at Post no. 1 in the thread.]
Please feel free to raise your doubts that would be properly attended to  in due course in future.
_All errors mine._


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## Ishna

Taranjeet ji, Im a little bit confused by your reply, but thanks for your reply. I wasn't arguing over the term 'Waheguru'. I was just making an observation.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Comparative reasoning...
*               The Ninety Nine Attributes of Allah            *


                                                                                                                            In the Holy Qur’an, we read the following verses:
_*Allah: There is no god but He; His are the Greatest Names. (20:8) *_
_*Say: Call upon Allah or call upon the Beneficent God  (al-Rahman); whichever you call upon, He has the Greatest Names."  (Qur’an, 17:110) *_
_*To Allah belong the Greatest Names; therefore, call on  Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His  Names..." (Qur’an, 7:180)*_
 In order to familiarize ourselves with Allah's Attributes, we have to  consult the Holy Qur’an, traditions, or even common-sense. On page 220  of his Book of Unity (of Allah), Shaikh Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn Babawayh  al-Qummi al-Saduq quotes Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq quoting his forefathers  quoting the Messenger of Allah saying,
 "There are ninety-nine Attributes, one hundred minus one, of Allah;  whoever counts them will enter Paradise." He is also quoted saying that  whoever learns these Attributes by heart and comprehends their meanings  (and acts upon it) will enter Paradise. One should be familiar with the  meanings and implications of these names, not just with their count.  Nobody can sufficiently be acquainted with the Attributes of Allah as He  Himself says in 73:20: _*"He knows that you cannot (sufficiently) count Him (His Attributes)."*_ 

*A tradition says, "Derive your manners from the Attributes of Allah."  Allah has willed to show His servant His Attributes which collectively  describe Him without His Name being a separate part thereof, even though  He is not identical to them in essence.*
 On page 112, Vol. 1, the renown scholar al-Kulaini al-Razi cites  Hisham ibn al-Hakam saying that when he once asked Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq  about Allah's Attributes and their derivation, as well as the derivation  of the word "Allah," the Imam said to him, "O Hisham! The proper noun  `Allah' is derived from `ilah;' the Creator requires the existence of  creation [to testify to His being its Creator]. This is a noun, not an  adjective.
*Anyone who worships a name without worshipping what the name stands  for is actually committing kufr, apostasy; in reality, he does not  worship anything at all. One who worships the name and the meaning is  also committing kufr, for he will be worshipping two. Only one who  worships the meaning without the name is in line with the concept of  Tawhid (Unity of God). *Have you understood all of this, O Hisham?"
 He answered him in the affirmative, requesting him to provide more  explanations, whereupon the Imam said, "There are ninety-nine Attributes  of Allah. Had each Attribute been the same as it describes, each one of  them would have been a god by itself. But `Allah' is the meaning one  deducts once he becomes familiar with all these Attributes. They all, O  Hisham, in their collective sense, are not the same as He Himself. Bread  is something you eat. Water is something you drink. A garment is  something you put on. And fire is something that burns. 



Similarly       /hari/Raam/Govind/Narayan/ETC ETC ETC are DESCRIPTIVE ATTRIBUTES and once we GET that..we EXCLAIM>>>WAH  WAH  WAH  WAHGURU....How GREAT YOU TRULY ARE !! Waheguru waheguru wahe jio...  Now similar to Hisham in the above context..a Sikh who "worships" the WORD WAHEGURU..is actually peforming an utterly useless act. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes way way MORE than just 99 attributes of THE CREATOR...and we SIKHS are supposed to IMBIBE those in our Daily Lives to CHANGE...TRANSFORM..into BETTER HUMANS...rather than waste hours daily LIP SYNCING...

This si the Basic reason why the MILLIONS of Wahegur Chants/Nitnems/Ardasses/Akhand paaths/Kirtan Darbars/Mahan Katha samagams /Nagar Kiratns etc etc have not achieved ANYTHING...not even succeeded in allowing FREE Passage to nanakanna sahib !! after 65 YEARS of such...


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## Taranjeet singh

> Similarly /hari/Raam/Govind/Narayan/ETC ETC ETC are DESCRIPTIVE ATTRIBUTES and once we GET that..we EXCLAIM>>>WAH WAH WAH WAHGURU....How GREAT YOU TRULY ARE !! Waheguru waheguru wahe jio... Now similar to Hisham in the above context..a Sikh who "worships" the WORD WAHEGURU..is actually peforming an utterly useless act. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes way way MORE than just 99 attributes of THE CREATOR...and we SIKHS are supposed to IMBIBE those in our Daily Lives to CHANGE...TRANSFORM..into BETTER HUMANS...rather than waste hours daily LIP SYNCING...



First of all let me thank you for allowing me to enter into a discussion on the subject that you intend to touch. It is really my privilege and sole prerogative.It is a blessing in disguise. I am giving below Two shabads that may be helpful in this discussion.I shall not discuss the shabads as the meanings are given. I am afraid, if you permit to state, that the exercise would be purely academic only. 
Please guide me if I go astray. Your guidance is necessary for me and I hope you will kindly extend. Also forgive me for my words as I have a very limited Vocabulary.

Shabad deals with the _Kirtam naam_ that you have stated [descriptive attributive] name. I agree with you that waheguru is a  kirtam Naam.

1. But how to remember the Lord if we do not know 'Sacha Naam' or 'Nirmal Naam' and other names used for the same terms and expressions till we have attained the stage of realization of the Sacha Naam that is not Kirtam Naam.?

2. How do you reconcile of not Japping 'waheguru' as per SRM? Kindly guide us ,Sir.and I shall be very grateful.


1 Ang 1135
Fourth Mehl:  
xxx
xxx

ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਨਣੇ ॥
That is Your True Congregation, Lord, where the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises are heard.  
ਸਾਈ = ਉਹੀ {ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ}। ਜਿਤੁ = ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ। ਕੀਰਤਿ = ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ। ਸੁਨਣੇ = ਸੁਣੀ ਜਾਏ।
ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਉਹੀ ਇਕੱਠ) ਤੇਰੀ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ (ਅਖਵਾ ਸਕਦਾ) ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ, ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਸੁਣੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।

ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਭੀਨਾ ਤਿਨ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰੇਵਹ ਨਿਤ ਚਰਣੇ ॥੧॥
The minds of those who listen to the Lord's Name are drenched with bliss; I worship their feet continually. ||1||  
ਭੀਨਾ = ਭਿੱਜ ਗਿਆ। ਤਿਨ ਚਰਣੇ = ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨ। ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰੇਵਹ = ਅਸੀਂ ਸੇਵੀਏ, ਮੈਂ ਸੇਵਾਂ ॥੧॥
(ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਹੈ (ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕ ਕੇ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਨ (ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵਿਚ) ਭਿੱਜ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਮੈਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਨੀ (ਆਪਣੀ) ਸੁਭਾਗਤਾ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹਾਂ ॥੧॥

ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ ਤਰਣੇ ॥
Meditating on the Lord, the Life of the World, the mortals cross over.  
ਜਗ ਜੀਵਨੁ = ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। ਧਿਆਇ = ਸਿਮਰ ਕੇ। ਤਰਣੇ = (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ) ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘੀਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਹਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘ ਜਾਈਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਇਤੁ ਗਨਣੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Your Names are so many, they are countless, O Lord. This tongue of mine cannot even count them. ||1||Pause||  
ਅਸੰਖ = ਅਣ-ਗਿਣਤ {ਸੰਖਿਆ = ਗਿਣਤੀ}। ਹਰਿ = ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! ਜਿਹਵਾ = ਜੀਭ। ਇਤੁ = ਇਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਜਿਹਵਾ ਇਤੁ = ਇਸ ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ॥੧॥
ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਤੇਰੀਆਂ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਣੇ ਹੋਏ) ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਹਨ ਅਣਗਿਣਤ ਹਨ, ਇਸ ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥

ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਲੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਣੇ ॥
O GurSikhs, chant the Lord's Name, and sing the Praises of the Lord. Take the Guru's Teachings, and meditate on the Lord.  
ਗੁਰਸਿਖ = ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿੱਖੋ! ਲੇ = ਲੈ ਕੇ।
ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿੱਖੋ! ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਉਚਾਰਿਆ ਕਰੋ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਗਾਵਿਆ ਕਰੋ, ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿਆ ਕਰੋ।

ਜੋ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੇਰਾ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਖ ਘਣੇ ॥੨॥
Whoever listens to the Guru's Teachings - that humble being receives countless comforts and pleasures from the Lord. ||2||  
ਕੇਰਾ = ਦਾ। ਘਣੇ = ਬਹੁਤ ॥੨॥
ਹੇ ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖੋ! ਜਿਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ (ਸਰਧਾ ਨਾਲ) ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁਖ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨॥

ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਵੰਸੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਮਾਤਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਨ ਜਣੇ ॥
Blessed is the ancestry, blessed is the father, and blessed is that mother who gave birth to this humble servant.  
ਧੰਨੁ = ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲਾ। ਵੰਸੁ = ਕੁਲ, ਖ਼ਾਨਦਾਨ। ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ ਨੇ। ਜਨ = ਭਗਤ। ਜਣੇ = ਜੰਮੇ, ਜਨਮ ਦਿੱਤਾ।
ਭਾਗਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਕੁਲ, ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਪਿਉ ਤੇ ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਮਾਂ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਭਗਤ-ਜਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਨਮ ਦਿੱਤਾ।

ਜਿਨ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੇ ਸਾਚੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਬਣੇ ॥੩॥
Those who meditate on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and morsel of food - those humble servants of the Lord look beautiful in the True Court of the Lord. ||3||  
ਜਿਨ = ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ {ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ}। 'ਜਿਨਿ' {ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ}। ਸਾਸਿ = (ਹਰੇਕ) ਸਾਹ ਨਾਲ। ਗਿਰਾਸਿ = (ਹਰੇਕ) ਗਿਰਾਹੀ ਨਾਲ। ਸੇ = ਉਹ {ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ}। ਸਾਚੀ = ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੀ। ਬਣੇ = ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲੇ ਹੋਏ ॥੩॥
ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਰੇਕ ਸਾਹ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਆਪਣੀ ਹਰੇਕ ਗਿਰਾਹੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲੇ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੩॥

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਗਮ ਨਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਰਣੇ ॥
O Lord, Har, Har, Your Names are profound and infinite; Your devotees cherish them deep within.  
ਅਗਮ = ਅਪਹੁੰਚ। ਧਰਣੇ = ਰੱਖੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ।
ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਤੇਰੇ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ) ਤੇਰੇ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੀ ਨਾਮ ਹਨ, ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਉਹ ਨਾਮ ਆਪਣੇ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਾਏ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ।

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਵਣੇ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
Servant Nanak has obtained the wisdom of the Guru's Teachings; meditating on the Lord, Har, Har, he crosses over to the other side. ||4||3||7||  
ਜਨਿ = ਜਨ ਨੇ, (ਜਿਸ) ਸੇਵਕ ਨੇ। ਪਾਰਿ ਪਵਣੇ = ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਿਸ ਜਿਸ ਸੇਵਕ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮੱਤ ਉਤੇ ਤੁਰ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥



2. GIven below is a second shabad that states there is another kind of Naam that is made by Him.


Ang 463
ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓ ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਨਾਉ ॥ He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name.
ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥ Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.
ਦਾਤਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਸਿ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥ You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.
ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੋਈ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇ ਲੈਸਹਿ ਜਿੰਦੁ ਕਵਾਉ ॥ You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word.
ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥੧॥ Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1||

3. Both the shabads are relevant to the discussion.



> This si the Basic reason why the MILLIONS of Wahegur Chants/Nitnems/Ardasses/Akhand paaths/Kirtan Darbars/Mahan Katha samagams /Nagar Kiratns etc etc have not achieved ANYTHING...not even succeeded in allowing FREE Passage to nanakanna sahib !! after 65 YEARS of such...



1.Respected Gyani ji, we do not know who might have attained Brahmgyan and how many might have got Supreme state of merging into Naam or Sabad or shabad. I have no idea about this.

2. I have already given my stand about the term 'waheguru' and I find it so beautiful that I cannot describe. It is the most beautiful thing that has happened to me 


3.The initiative for getting passage to Pakistan [for visit to Gurudwara] can be initiated through respective Governments of Your country and my country or for that matter each and every country where sikhs reside.One should make efforts to do this after all you and we constitute the Panth.


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## Taranjeet singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Comparative reasoning...
> *               The Ninety Nine Attributes of Allah            *
> 
> 
> In the Holy Qur’an, we read the following verses:
> _*Allah: There is no god but He; His are the Greatest Names. (20:8) *_
> _*Say: Call upon Allah or call upon the Beneficent God  (al-Rahman); whichever you call upon, He has the Greatest Names."  (Qur’an, 17:110) *_
> _*To Allah belong the Greatest Names; therefore, call on  Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His  Names..." (Qur’an, 7:180)*_
> In order to familiarize ourselves with Allah's Attributes, we have to  consult the Holy Qur’an, traditions, or even common-sense. On page 220  of his Book of Unity (of Allah), Shaikh Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn Babawayh  al-Qummi al-Saduq quotes Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq quoting his forefathers  quoting the Messenger of Allah saying,
> "There are ninety-nine Attributes, one hundred minus one, of Allah;  whoever counts them will enter Paradise." He is also quoted saying that  whoever learns these Attributes by heart and comprehends their meanings  (and acts upon it) will enter Paradise. One should be familiar with the  meanings and implications of these names, not just with their count.  Nobody can sufficiently be acquainted with the Attributes of Allah as He  Himself says in 73:20: _*"He knows that you cannot (sufficiently) count Him (His Attributes)."*_
> 
> *A tradition says, "Derive your manners from the Attributes of Allah."  Allah has willed to show His servant His Attributes which collectively  describe Him without His Name being a separate part thereof, even though  He is not identical to them in essence.*
> On page 112, Vol. 1, the renown scholar al-Kulaini al-Razi cites  Hisham ibn al-Hakam saying that when he once asked Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq  about Allah's Attributes and their derivation, as well as the derivation  of the word "Allah," the Imam said to him, "O Hisham! The proper noun  `Allah' is derived from `ilah;' the Creator requires the existence of  creation [to testify to His being its Creator]. This is a noun, not an  adjective.
> *Anyone who worships a name without worshipping what the name stands  for is actually committing kufr, apostasy; in reality, he does not  worship anything at all. One who worships the name and the meaning is  also committing kufr, for he will be worshipping two. Only one who  worships the meaning without the name is in line with the concept of  Tawhid (Unity of God). *Have you understood all of this, O Hisham?"
> He answered him in the affirmative, requesting him to provide more  explanations, whereupon the Imam said, "There are ninety-nine Attributes  of Allah. Had each Attribute been the same as it describes, each one of  them would have been a god by itself. But `Allah' is the meaning one  deducts once he becomes familiar with all these Attributes. They all, O  Hisham, in their collective sense, are not the same as He Himself. Bread  is something you eat. Water is something you drink. A garment is  something you put on. And fire is something that burns.
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly       /hari/Raam/Govind/Narayan/ETC ETC ETC are DESCRIPTIVE ATTRIBUTES and once we GET that..we EXCLAIM>>>WAH  WAH  WAH  WAHGURU....How GREAT YOU TRULY ARE !! Waheguru waheguru wahe jio...  Now similar to Hisham in the above context..a Sikh who "worships" the WORD WAHEGURU..is actually peforming an utterly useless act. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes way way MORE than just 99 attributes of THE CREATOR...and we SIKHS are supposed to IMBIBE those in our Daily Lives to CHANGE...TRANSFORM..into BETTER HUMANS...rather than waste hours daily LIP SYNCING...
> 
> This si the Basic reason why the MILLIONS of Wahegur Chants/Nitnems/Ardasses/Akhand paaths/Kirtan Darbars/Mahan Katha samagams /Nagar Kiratns etc etc have not achieved ANYTHING...not even succeeded in allowing FREE Passage to nanakanna sahib !! after 65 YEARS of such...



Respected Gyani ji,
Before I start writing I fully appreciate your view point except for the name 'waheguru'.I do not know why you have appreciated my post. It was given to fortify your statements. 
Yes, it is true that it is through Bani that we can get Naam and there is no other way. Kirtam Naam is meant to increase our concentration and focus so that we get the naam by practicing Bani only.

Coming to your above statement that is colored, states that God has limited attributes . I think this statement goes against sikh philosophy. Our 'waheguru' has no limits. He is infinite hence unfathomable. His attributes and virtues cannot be counted.  
With this I close this chapter. I stand convinced that Naam can be obtained only thru. Bani. I might have hurt you in the process and I entreat your forgiveness. Kindly forgive me. I never meant to disrespect you. 

Your logic, except for the above i.e 99 attributes , is perfectly alright and I appreciate your view point , again I seek your forgiveness which you will grant taking me as an obstinate son. I take your leave now......


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Taranjeet singh said:


> Respected Gyani ji,
> Before I start writing I fully appreciate your view point except for the name 'waheguru'.I do not know why you have appreciated my post. It was given to fortify your statements.
> Yes, it is true that it is through Bani that we can get Naam and there is no other way. Kirtam Naam is meant to increase our concentration and focus so that we get the naam by practicing Bani only.
> 
> Coming to your above statement that is colored, states that God has limited attributes . I think this statement goes against sikh philosophy. Our 'waheguru' has no limits. He is infinite hence unfathomable. His attributes and virtues cannot be counted.
> With this I close this chapter. I stand convinced that Naam can be obtained only thru. Bani. I might have hurt you in the process and I entreat your forgiveness. Kindly forgive me. I never meant to disrespect you.
> 
> Your logic, except for the above i.e 99 attributes , is perfectly alright and I appreciate your view point , again I seek your forgiveness which you will grant taking me as an obstinate son. I take your leave now......




Taranjeet Singh ji,

forget the thought that you hurt me. no way.
The above post is titled COMPARATIVE RELIGION...its NOT GURMATT...just for comparison...to stimulate the thought process.

Secondly you would have noticed that the SGGS calls the Muslim "KANNA" one eyed....and this "limited attributes" is one reason.The CREATOR is BEYOND LIMITS...beyond any counting..CORRECT.

Regards

Jarnail Singh


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## Harry Haller

Gentlemen,  (you know who you are), I would like to bring this thread up again as I feel the leading post makes an excellent point, as we have new blood who also find this topic interesting, we could make this an excellent return base for the topic of Simran, for any new points that may be apt,


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## chazSingh

my feelings, thoughts and experiences of Simran are somewhat explained on my Blog:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/blogs...rit-vela-blog-difficulties-joys.html#comments

If anyone is interested please read it...it contains many great links to further resources...

i don;t really have anything further to say...apart from

1. keep trying to live an honest life.
2. Keep trying to share your earning and time with the less fortunate
3. Keep immersing yourself in Gurbani and Gurmanter with 100% focus through daily life and daily actions and during Amrit Vela..

Let the beautiful vibration of *Gurbani* enrapture your mind, feel it flowing through you as you contemplate it's message, as you contemplate the greatness of the formless, and infinite, *that exists within your very being*...feel it...

*He is right there...and within your reach...hold your arm out...He WILL come!*


Gurbani is TRUE...i never used to believe it...but i do now...shaken and awoken by Guru Ji

Words Cannot describe the joy one receives when your doubts start to dissolve and Gurbani is proven to to be True by Waheguru Ji...wondrous, truely wondrous it is...

*and my consciousness hasn't even skimmed the surface of the depth of this infinite ocean....very much excited, very focussed*

*very happy* to be on the path
*happy* that others are already walking with me
*happy* that others are being inspired to also walk it
*happy* that others are questioning it, contemplating it and observing their doubts...

All is Grace, What else can i say...  

peace and blessings of Waheguru Ji to the Sat Sangat


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## Harry Haller

Chazji

Although some would say we are going round in circles, I would personally disagree, some of what you say resonates with me, and I feel some of what I have said has resonated with you, so the circles get smaller and smaller.

What would your thoughts be on the subject of the word Waheguru not being present in the SGGS, thus making every reference to that word in the middle of a shabad, in effect blasphemy?


----------



## chazSingh

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> Although some would say we are going round in circles, I would personally disagree, some of what you say resonates with me, and I feel some of what I have said has resonated with you, so the circles get smaller and smaller.
> 
> What would your thoughts be on the subject of the word Waheguru not being present in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, thus making every reference to that word in the middle of a shabad, in effect blasphemy?



*Who is it a Blasphemy to? *

the people on this forum? my fellow sikhs around the world? *to GOD?* lol

If i am accepted into the arms of my Guru, and enveloped in the sights and sounds of his wondrous nature...and i have the word *Waheguru* on my mind in awe of his wonder...

*then how can it be Blasphemy? lol God obviously didn't have an issue with it lol*

*His acceptance is all that matters...*
then whatever you or anyone else thinks becomes meaningless my friend...

So recite, contemplate and soak in his love...and in his bani...

and when He takes you by the arm, scream out WAH, WAH....WAHE....WAHEGURU from the top of your voice...because that is what HE is WONDROUS...beyond description, dispeller of darkness!

over and out...good luck for the rest of this thread my friend 

God Bless


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## Harry Haller

> Who is it a Blasphemy to?



I would say that inserting words that are not present in shabads is a blasphemy, or more commonly known as Kachi bani, what is stopping me from inserting say the words 'lady gaga' into a shabad?



> If i am accepted into the arms of my Guru, and enveloped in the sights and sounds of his wondrous nature...and i have the word Waheguru on my mind in awe of his wonder...



but neither waheguru nor lady gaga appear in the SGGS according to Mr Dhillon



> then how can it be Blasphemy?  God obviously didn't have an issue with it



now then as you have replied in this thread, I am assuming you have read the first post, this clearly states that the word waheguru is absent from the entirety of the SGGS, so if we are to understand that the SGGS is the word of God, then God clearly did have an issue with it, otherwise he would have included it....



> His acceptance is all that matters...



well quite, but it appears the word has neither his acceptance nor his validation



> then whatever you or anyone else thinks becomes meaningless my friend...



absolutely, my friend 



> So recite, contemplate and soak in his love...and in his bani...



once again, it is not his bani, anymore than lady gaga



> and when He takes you by the arm, scream out WAH, WAH....WAHE....WAHEGURU from the top of your voice...because that is what HE is WONDROUS...beyond description, dispeller of darkness!



he might turn around and ask what are you saying, and ask where did you get this word, because it clearly is not from him..........


----------



## chazSingh

harry haller said:


> I would say that inserting words that are not present in shabads is a blasphemy, or more commonly known as Kachi bani, what is stopping me from inserting say the words 'lady gaga' into a shabad?
> 
> 
> 
> but neither waheguru nor lady gaga appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji according to Mr Dhillon
> 
> 
> 
> now then as you have replied in this thread, I am assuming you have read the first post, this clearly states that the word waheguru is absent from the entirety of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so if we are to understand that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the word of God, then God clearly did have an issue with it, otherwise he would have included it....
> 
> 
> 
> well quite, but it appears the word has neither his acceptance nor his validation
> 
> 
> 
> absolutely, my friend
> 
> 
> 
> once again, it is not his bani, anymore than lady gaga
> 
> 
> 
> he might turn around and ask what are you saying, and ask where did you get this word, because it clearly is not from him..........



God Bless you ji...

i KNOW god doesn't have an issue with it...  that's all that matters...direct experience of what you put into practice...not a very judgemental view of an author lol

apparently i am reciting gurbani by counting, using beeds, and wanting external rewards... lol
doesn't matter what you say Harry Ji or what articles you put before me...you can't change my mind 
it has already been enraptured....no turning back now...

God Bless Ji


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## chazSingh

SRI GURU GRANTH JI PAGE 1403


ਬੇਵਜੀਰ  ਬਡੇ  ਧੀਰ  ਧਰਮ  ਅੰਗ  ਅਲਖ  ਅਗਮ  ਖੇਲੁ  ਕੀਆ  ਆਪਣੈ  ਉਛਾਹਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
बेवजीर बडे धीर धरम अंग अलख अगम खेलु कीआ आपणै उछाहि जीउ ॥ 
Bevjīr bade ḏẖīr ḏẖaram ang alakẖ agam kẖel kī▫ā āpṇai ucẖẖāhi jī▫o. 
You have no advisors, You  are so very patient; You are the Upholder of the Dharma, unseen and  unfathomable. You have staged the play of the Universe with joy and  delight. 
ਅਕਥ  ਕਥਾ  ਕਥੀ  ਨ  ਜਾਇ  ਤੀਨਿ  ਲੋਕ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਸਮਾਇ  ਸੁਤਹ  ਸਿਧ  ਰੂਪੁ  ਧਰਿਓ  ਸਾਹਨ  ਕੈ  ਸਾਹਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
अकथ कथा कथी न जाइ तीनि लोक रहिआ समाइ सुतह सिध रूपु धरिओ साहन कै साहि जीउ ॥ 
Akath kathā kathī na jā▫e ṯīn lok rahi▫ā samā▫e suṯah siḏẖ rūp ḏẖari▫o sāhan kai sāhi jī▫o. 
No one can speak Your  Unspoken Speech. You are pervading the three worlds. You assume the form  of spiritual perfection, O King of kings. 
ਸਤਿ  ਸਾਚੁ  ਸ੍ਰੀ  ਨਿਵਾਸੁ  ਆਦਿ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਸਦਾ  ਤੁਹੀ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ  ਵਾਹਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੩॥੮॥ 
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥३॥८॥ 
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||3||8|| 
You are forever True, the  Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru,  Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8|| 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਗੁਬਿੰਦ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
सतिगुरू सतिगुरू सतिगुरु गुबिंद जीउ ॥ 
Saṯgurū saṯgurū saṯgur gubinḏ jī▫o. 
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. 
ਬਲਿਹਿ  ਛਲਨ  ਸਬਲ  ਮਲਨ  ਭਗ੍ਤਿ  ਫਲਨ  ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਕੁਅਰ  ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ  ਬਜੀ  ਡੰਕ  ਚੜ੍ਹੂ  ਦਲ  ਰਵਿੰਦ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
बलिहि छलन सबल मलन भग्ति फलन कान्ह कुअर निहकलंक बजी डंक चड़्हू दल रविंद जीउ ॥ 
Balihi cẖẖalan sabal malan bẖagaṯ falan kānĥ ku▫ar nihklank bajī dank cẖaṛhū ḏal ravinḏ jī▫o. 
Enticer of Baliraja, who  smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and  Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across  the Universe. 
ਰਾਮ  ਰਵਣ  ਦੁਰਤ  ਦਵਣ  ਸਕਲ  ਭਵਣ  ਕੁਸਲ  ਕਰਣ  ਸਰਬ  ਭੂਤ  ਆਪਿ  ਹੀ  ਦੇਵਾਧਿ  ਦੇਵ  ਸਹਸ  ਮੁਖ  ਫਨਿੰਦ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
राम रवण दुरत दवण सकल भवण कुसल करण सरब भूत आपि ही देवाधि देव सहस मुख फनिंद जीउ ॥ 
Rām ravaṇ ḏuraṯ ḏavaṇ sakal bẖavaṇ kusal karaṇ sarab bẖūṯ āp hī ḏevāḏẖ ḏev sahas mukẖ faninḏ jī▫o. 
The Lord of contemplation,  Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He  Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed  king cobra. 
ਜਰਮ  ਕਰਮ  ਮਛ  ਕਛ  ਹੁਅ  ਬਰਾਹ  ਜਮੁਨਾ  ਕੈ  ਕੂਲਿ  ਖੇਲੁ  ਖੇਲਿਓ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਗਿੰਦ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
जरम करम मछ कछ हुअ बराह जमुना कै कूलि खेलु खेलिओ जिनि गिंद जीउ ॥ 
Jaram karam macẖẖ kacẖẖ hu▫a barāh jamunā kai kūl kẖel kẖeli▫o jin binn jī▫o. 
He took birth in the  Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part.  He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River. 
ਨਾਮੁ  ਸਾਰੁ  ਹੀਏ  ਧਾਰੁ  ਤਜੁ  ਬਿਕਾਰੁ  ਮਨ  ਗਯੰਦ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਗੁਬਿੰਦ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੪॥੯॥ 
नामु सारु हीए धारु तजु बिकारु मन गयंद सतिगुरू सतिगुरू सतिगुर गुबिंद जीउ ॥४॥९॥ 
Nām sār hī▫e ḏẖār ṯaj bikār man ga▫yanḏ saṯgurū saṯgurū saṯgur gubinḏ jī▫o. ||4||9|| 
Enshrine this most  excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the  mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord  of the Universe Himself. ||4||9|| 
ਸਿਰੀ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਿਰੀ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਿਰੀ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਤਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
सिरी गुरू सिरी गुरू सिरी गुरू सति जीउ ॥ 
Sirī gurū sirī gurū sirī gurū saṯ jī▫o. 
The Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the True, Dear Lord. 
ਗੁਰ  ਕਹਿਆ  ਮਾਨੁ  ਨਿਜ  ਨਿਧਾਨੁ  ਸਚੁ  ਜਾਨੁ  ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ  ਇਹੈ  ਨਿਸਿ  ਬਾਸੁਰ  ਹੋਇ  ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ  ਲਹਹਿ  ਪਰਮ  ਗਤਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
गुर कहिआ मानु निज निधानु सचु जानु मंत्रु इहै निसि बासुर होइ कल्यानु लहहि परम गति जीउ ॥ 
Gur kahi▫ā mān nij niḏẖān sacẖ jān manṯar ihai nis bāsur ho▫e kal▫yān lahėh param gaṯ jī▫o. 
Respect and obey the  Guru's Word; this is your own personal treasure - know this mantra as  true. Night and day, you shall be saved, and blessed with the supreme  status. 
ਕਾਮੁ  ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ  ਲੋਭੁ  ਮੋਹੁ  ਜਣ  ਜਣ  ਸਿਉ  ਛਾਡੁ  ਧੋਹੁ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਕਾ  ਫੰਧੁ  ਕਾਟੁ  ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ  ਰਤਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
कामु क्रोधु लोभु मोहु जण जण सिउ छाडु धोहु हउमै का फंधु काटु साधसंगि रति जीउ ॥ 
Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ moh jaṇ jaṇ si▫o cẖẖād ḏẖohu ha▫umai kā fanḏẖ kāt sāḏẖsang raṯ jī▫o. 
Renounce sexual desire,  anger, greed and attachment; give up your games of deception. Snap the  noose of egotism, and let yourself be at home in the Saadh Sangat, the  Company of the Holy. 
ਦੇਹ  ਗੇਹੁ  ਤ੍ਰਿਅ  ਸਨੇਹੁ  ਚਿਤ  ਬਿਲਾਸੁ  ਜਗਤ  ਏਹੁ  ਚਰਨ  ਕਮਲ  ਸਦਾ  ਸੇਉ  ਦ੍ਰਿੜਤਾ  ਕਰੁ  ਮਤਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
देह गेहु त्रिअ सनेहु चित बिलासु जगत एहु चरन कमल सदा सेउ द्रिड़ता करु मति जीउ ॥ 
Ḏeh gehu ṯari▫a sanehu cẖiṯ bilās jagaṯ ehu cẖaran kamal saḏā se▫o ḏariṛ▫ṯā kar maṯ jī▫o. 
Free your consciousness of  attachment to your body, your home, your spouse, and the pleasures of  this world. Serve forever at His Lotus Feet, and firmly implant these  teachings within. 
ਨਾਮੁ  ਸਾਰੁ  ਹੀਏ  ਧਾਰੁ  ਤਜੁ  ਬਿਕਾਰੁ  ਮਨ  ਗਯੰਦ  ਸਿਰੀ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਿਰੀ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਿਰੀ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਤਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੫॥੧੦॥ 
नामु सारु हीए धारु तजु बिकारु मन गयंद सिरी गुरू सिरी गुरू सिरी गुरू सति जीउ ॥५॥१०॥ 
Nām sār hī▫e ḏẖār ṯaj bikār man ga▫yanḏ sirī gurū sirī gurū sirī gurū saṯ jī▫o. ||5||10|| 
Enshrine this most  excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the  mind, O Gayand. the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru,  the True, Dear Lord. ||5||10|| 
ਸੇਵਕ  ਕੈ  ਭਰਪੂਰ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਸਭੁ  ਸਦਕਾ  ॥ 
सेवक कै भरपूर जुगु जुगु वाहगुरू तेरा सभु सदका ॥ 
Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā. 
Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever. 
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਲਾਮਤਿ  ਕਹਿ  ਨ  ਸਕੈ  ਕੋਊ  ਤੂ  ਕਦ  ਕਾ  ॥ 
निरंकारु प्रभु सदा सलामति कहि न सकै कोऊ तू कद का ॥ 
Nirankār parabẖ saḏā salāmaṯ kahi na sakai ko▫ū ṯū kaḏ kā. 
O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. 
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ  ਬਿਸਨੁ  ਸਿਰੇ  ਤੈ  ਅਗਨਤ  ਤਿਨ  ਕਉ  ਮੋਹੁ  ਭਯਾ  ਮਨ  ਮਦ  ਕਾ  ॥ 
ब्रहमा बिसनु सिरे तै अगनत तिन कउ मोहु भया मन मद का ॥ 
Barahmā bisan sire ṯai agnaṯ ṯin ka▫o moh bẖa▫yā man maḏ kā. 
You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment. 
ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ  ਲਖ  ਜੋਨਿ  ਉਪਾਈ  ਰਿਜਕੁ  ਦੀਆ  ਸਭ  ਹੂ  ਕਉ  ਤਦ  ਕਾ  ॥ 
चवरासीह लख जोनि उपाई रिजकु दीआ सभ हू कउ तद का ॥ 
Cẖavrāsīh lakẖ jon upā▫ī rijak ḏī▫ā sabẖ hū ka▫o ṯaḏ kā. 
You created the 8.4 million species of beings, and provide for their sustenance. 
ਸੇਵਕ  ਕੈ  ਭਰਪੂਰ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਸਭੁ  ਸਦਕਾ  ॥੧॥੧੧॥ 
सेवक कै भरपूर जुगु जुगु वाहगुरू तेरा सभु सदका ॥१॥११॥ 
Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā. ||1||11|| 
Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever. ||1||11|| 
ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਕਾ  ਬਡਾ  ਤਮਾਸਾ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु का बडा तमासा ॥ 
vāhu vāhu kā badā ṯamāsā. 
Waaho! Waaho! Great! Great is the Play of God! 
ਆਪੇ  ਹਸੈ  ਆਪਿ  ਹੀ  ਚਿਤਵੈ  ਆਪੇ  ਚੰਦੁ  ਸੂਰੁ  ਪਰਗਾਸਾ  ॥ 
आपे हसै आपि ही चितवै आपे चंदु सूरु परगासा ॥ 
Āpe hasai āp hī cẖiṯvai āpe cẖanḏ sūr pargāsā. 
He Himself laughs, and He Himself thinks; He Himself illumines the sun and the moon. 
ਆਪੇ  ਜਲੁ  ਆਪੇ  ਥਲੁ  ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਨੁ  ਆਪੇ  ਕੀਆ  ਘਟਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਬਾਸਾ  ॥ 
आपे जलु आपे थलु थम्हनु आपे कीआ घटि घटि बासा ॥ 
Āpe jal āpe thal thamĥan āpe kī▫ā gẖat gẖat bāsā. 
He Himself is the water, He Himself is the earth and its support. He Himself abides in each and every heart. 
ਆਪੇ  ਨਰੁ  ਆਪੇ  ਫੁਨਿ  ਨਾਰੀ  ਆਪੇ  ਸਾਰਿ  ਆਪ  ਹੀ  ਪਾਸਾ  ॥ 
आपे नरु आपे फुनि नारी आपे सारि आप ही पासा ॥ 
Āpe nar āpe fun nārī āpe sār āp hī pāsā. 
He Himself is male, and He Himself is female; He Himself is the chessman, and He Himself is the board. 
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਸਭੈ  ਬਿਚਾਰਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਕਾ  ਬਡਾ  ਤਮਾਸਾ  ॥੨॥੧੨॥ 
गुरमुखि संगति सभै बिचारहु वाहु वाहु का बडा तमासा ॥२॥१२॥ 
Gurmukẖ sangaṯ sabẖai bicẖārahu vāhu vāhu kā badā ṯamāsā. ||2||12|| 
As Gurmukh, join the Sangat, and consider all this: Waaho! Waaho! Great! Great is the Play of God! ||2||12|| 
ਕੀਆ  ਖੇਲੁ  ਬਡ  ਮੇਲੁ  ਤਮਾਸਾ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ  ਤੇਰੀ  ਸਭ  ਰਚਨਾ  ॥ 
कीआ खेलु बड मेलु तमासा वाहिगुरू तेरी सभ रचना ॥ 
Kī▫ā kẖel bad mel ṯamāsā vāhigurū ṯerī sabẖ racẖnā. 
You have formed and created this play, this great game. O Waahay Guru, this is all You, forever. 
ਤੂ  ਜਲਿ  ਥਲਿ  ਗਗਨਿ  ਪਯਾਲਿ  ਪੂਰਿ  ਰਹ੍ਯ੍ਯਾ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਤੇ  ਮੀਠੇ  ਜਾ  ਕੇ  ਬਚਨਾ  ॥ 
तू जलि थलि गगनि पयालि पूरि रह्या अम्रित ते मीठे जा के बचना ॥ 
Ŧū jal thal gagan pa▫yāl pūr rah▫yā amriṯ ṯe mīṯẖe jā ke bacẖnā. 
You are pervading and permeating the water, land, skies and nether regions; Your Words are sweeter than Ambrosial Nectar. 
ਮਾਨਹਿ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ  ਰੁਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ  ਕਾਲ  ਕਾ  ਕਾਲੁ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨ  ਜਚਨਾ  ॥ 
मानहि ब्रहमादिक रुद्रादिक काल का कालु निरंजन जचना ॥ 
Mānėh barahmāḏik ruḏrāḏik kāl kā kāl niranjan jacẖnā. 
Brahmas and Shivas respect and obey You. O Death of death, Formless Lord, I beg of You.


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## Harry Haller

> but neither waheguru nor lady gaga appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji according to Mr Dhillon



no it is myself that is mistaken, Mr Dhillon has stated that Guru Nanakji never used the word Waheguru, not that it did not appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, apologies, my argument is flawed in that respect, and that I guess is a lesson in humility!


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## arshdeep88

Beautiful thread.
Learned a lot and  it is a beauty in itself that how learning never stops.


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## chazSingh

harry haller said:


> no it is myself that is mistaken, Mr Dhillon has stated that Guru Nanakji never used the word Waheguru, not that it did not appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, apologies, my argument is flawed in that respect, and that I guess is a lesson in humility!



I agree with many aspects of the original article...but we are told to accept the whole Sri Guru Granth as our Guru...as the absolute truth...

When an author starts to distinguish between who physically wrote the shabads i.e. Guru's, bhagats, etc etc and the shabad doesn't have the same importance because it wasn't written directly by Guru Nanak, then my friend that is the point at which i stop reading an article.

He has lost the whole essence of Guru Granth...that the shabad is the shabad no matter what physical body it was written by and it was included in the Sri Guru Granth by the Guru's because it contained the absolute truth...and nothing but the truth..

God Bless Ji..


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## gur_meet

ActsOGod ji  had asked a question in the thread "How to Do Simran" which stands merged with this thread. although his question  put on 11th june  asking for help in simran. It is not visible now . reading that I decided to share. My typing is slow and and also being  busy in worldly affairs so here I am sharing my experience of beginning part of simran which is quite relevant and would prove helpful.
What is being shared is guru guided practical experience.
I am not a Sikh scholar but definitely study books so as to understand gurbani's nuances better for application. There were many questions in my mind. The Sikh katha  wachaks  talked about importance of simran but no one explained process of simran. so for learning how to do simran and so for answers i started reading  books by Sikh writers  and tikas. Search was for tips which are called a Dhool of Gursikhs. A small hint and forward step is made. This was years back and I don't recollect the exact sequence. So without talking about amritvela  ,  nitnem , listening to shabads  etc i am moving directly to relevant points being shared. These were small hints found after sifting through many books  being  practical experience shared by other gursikhs .
First is to let go of all doubts, questions etc. And to let go of even the thought that ‘you are not worthy as there are so many shortcomings. ". 
Second waheguruji being formless can only be perceived by feeling, so tip was  just feel HIS presence even though initially one does not feel the presence. This is known as Hazuri. This was done by me while doing nitnem. There was no hurry to finish the nitnem path. I remember once taking many days to even finish sukhmani sahib. 
There was also a tip to think you are reading gurbani  to guru who is listening ( this I tried to  follow  initially but stopped ).
Third is “listening to your own voice while doing waheguruji simran “.  This pulls your awareness inside. Slowly one get used to keeping the awareness inside. When I did it repeatedly the awareness settled of its own accord behind the eyes within the head.  I found this to be a good factor in detachment. One can connect within; eyes can remain open and the worldly work which is automatic can be done except like talking. 
I do hear talk of some Sikhs telling ‘keep your attention at heart”. A few say between brows. But I found the natural place to be within the head as ears are also nearby. The  so ignored other points of focus were ignored. 
At first you voice the words and hear it. Later the the waheguru jap is done within without voicing the sound and is heard within.
Last point being shared is important for one who is beginning simran as well as for a higher level. The progress is in steps and the next step is the aim or goal in of the Jap. The word Jap means to repeat again and again. Jap thus has a purpose.  This repetition is the dry part. There are doubts. The goal looks elusive even non-existent. Doubts all the way. There is no Ras (anand) in the jap. The Sikh keeps up the effort (udham). Then with guru’s grace the goal becomes an experience. The practical example is needed here to explain.
In the below Shabad Gurbani says that 
ਸਾਜਨੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਜਨੜਾ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਖਲੋਇਅੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਜਨੜਾ ॥
Saajanarraa Maeraa Saajanarraa Nikatt Khaloeiarraa Maeraa Saajanarraa ||
Friend, my Friend - standing so near to me is my Friend!
ਜਾਨੀਅੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੀਅੜਾ ਨੈਣ ਅਲੋਇਅੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੀਅੜਾ ॥
Jaaneearraa Har Jaaneearraa Nain Aloeiarraa Har Jaaneearraa ||
Beloved, the Lord my Beloved - with my eyes, I have seen the Lord, my Beloved!
ਨੈਣ ਅਲੋਇਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੋਇਆ ਅਤਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਗੂੜਾ ॥
Nain Aloeiaa Ghatt Ghatt Soeiaa Ath Anmrith Pria Goorraa ||
With my eyes I have seen Him, sleeping within each and every heart; my Beloved is the sweetest ambrosial nectar.
ਨਾਲਿ ਹੋਵੰਦਾ ਲਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੰਦਾ ਸੁਆਉ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਮੂੜਾ ॥
Naal Hovandhaa Lehi N Sakandhaa Suaao N Jaanai Moorraa ||
He is with all, but he cannot be found; the fool does not know His taste.
ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦਿ ਮਾਤਾ ਹੋਛੀ ਬਾਤਾ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਭਰਮ ਧੜਾ ॥
Maaeiaa Madh Maathaa Hoshhee Baathaa Milan N Jaaee Bharam Dhharraa ||
Intoxicated with the wine of Maya, the mortal babbles on about trivial affairs; giving in to the illusion, he cannot meet the Lord.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਜਨੁ ਸਭ ਕੈ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਖੜਾ ॥੧॥
Kahu Naanak Gur Bin Naahee Soojhai Har Saajan Sabh Kai Nikatt Kharraa ||1||
Says Nanak, without the Guru, he cannot understand the Lord, the Friend who is standing near everyone. ||1||
ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੨੪ page 924.

The words  “ਸਾਜਨੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਜਨੜਾ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਖਲੋਇਅੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਜਨੜਾ ॥ The feeling of presence of Waheguruji is not a part of general experience. The  illusion is so strong and the attraction of worldly affairs ever keeps one engrossed. But these are words of Gurbani. These words are absolute truth for the Gursikh. So having faith in the gurbani words the jap of gurbani shabad is done. The pungtee or pungtees repeated again and again.  When I shifted to Waheguru jap then the HIS presence as indicated by gurbani words were the aim. Ignoring doubts and the dry part the time comes when the feeling is out and visibly felt. 
The feeling does not go now. It comes back the moment Waheguru word is uttered. It is simran now. Both are together.
Simran is a mix of Jap and vichar. So the word JAP which first comes after Gurparsad and before Aadh Sach Jugaadh Sach is very important. 
It enables the Sikh to cross two main obstacles. One is of linear time. In the world there is cause and effect sequence. We expect the same in spiritual world. We do not see the result as the result lies in the timeless world. The Sach (truth) is beyond time, ever same and is thus timeless. The jap crosses this boundary and as Gur parsad the inner connection is made.

What I have shared is practical experience after reading a fellow Sikhs words relevant for beginning simran. Hoping this part of experience could be relevant . There are better Sikhs in this forum . If it does not match any of their experience  so I am open to correction.


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## chazSingh

gur_meet said:


> There are better Sikhs in this forum . If it does not match any of their experience  so I am open to correction.



Please do not say you are open to correction ji 

you do not want anyone to correct you...you want to go with the feelings you have, the experiences of trying and seeing the results...

if you are getting results by what you are doing, then there is no correction in it, and no need for anyone to tell you you are wrong...

I have tried many things in the past and what you say at the beginning to try to feel waheguru there with you, within you is the best start anyone can have...

because He is there with you within you in a way that we cannot even begin to imagine..

eventually the doubt will start to dissapear because Guru Ji has heard your heart calling...and He resides in your heart...and realization of Waheguru within you will begin, if it hasn't already happened


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## gur_meet

Chaz ji
What I have shared are from my experiences years back. Only Guru Knows where the stage is a Sikh is.

One learns through sharing. A gursikh had long back shared that in gurbani there is no word "abyhas' meaning practice. The Guru advice is "Udham" meaning effort.
Si,ran is no skill to be practiced and made better and better. Nitnem is not meant to be better in doing it.

Guruji says in Japji Sahib '         ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥ Akharee      Naam Akharee Saalaah || " . The words lead to naam and the words that make us the way to Naam- sift saslaah (praises).

The words are thoughts and thoughts become beliefs . Group belief's influence your thoughts as well.
You say 'follow the heart' . " follow the feelings" . Who knows these may have an agenda of their own like attachment . This is a world has duality structured within it.Where there is Love there is Fear as well .Fear is part of created world. all vikars have in one way or another a fear connection.  Guru ji says Sat state is Nirbhau. Means Fear is not part of HIM. our feelings and behavior has quite often fear influence.

Gurbani advices follow the Guru. Gurbani is absolute truth and the advice is the correct path. The Group beliefs in the form of good quotes often appear as true.
 Guru ji says "  ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ Hukam      Rajaaee Chalanaa Naanak Likhiaa Naal ||1|| " . This is what to be followed. This gets written in the form of thoughts and action which changes the Sikh's mind.

Words are important . These are thoughts in the mind. These have a force of their own. 
Gurbani words are true potent spiritual directional force for the Gursikh. When the Sikh comes to realize and accepts the presence of Shabad Guru within the gurbani then communicates.


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## chazSingh

gur_meet said:


> Chaz ji
> What I have shared are from my experiences years back. Only Guru Knows where the stage is a Sikh is.
> 
> One learns through sharing. A gursikh had long back shared that in gurbani there is no word "abyhas' meaning practice. The Guru advice is "Udham" meaning effort.
> Si,ran is no skill to be practiced and made better and better. Nitnem is not meant to be better in doing it.
> 
> Guruji says in Japji Sahib '         ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥ Akharee      Naam Akharee Saalaah || " . The words lead to naam and the words that make us the way to Naam- sift saslaah (praises).
> 
> The words are thoughts and thoughts become beliefs . Group belief's influence your thoughts as well.
> You say 'follow the heart' . " follow the feelings" . Who knows these may have an agenda of their own like attachment . This is a world has duality structured within it.Where there is Love there is Fear as well .Fear is part of created world. all vikars have in one way or another a fear connection.  Guru ji says Sat state is Nirbhau. Means Fear is not part of HIM. our feelings and behavior has quite often fear influence.
> 
> Gurbani advices follow the Guru. Gurbani is absolute truth and the advice is the correct path. The Group beliefs in the form of good quotes often appear as true.
> Guru ji says "  ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ Hukam      Rajaaee Chalanaa Naanak Likhiaa Naal ||1|| " . This is what to be followed. This gets written in the form of thoughts and action which changes the Sikh's mind.
> 
> Words are important . These are thoughts in the mind. These have a force of their own.
> Gurbani words are true potent spiritual directional force for the Gursikh. When the Sikh comes to realize and accepts the presence of Shabad Guru within the gurbani then communicates.



great post ji


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## Luckysingh

chazSingh said:


> I agree with many aspects of the original article...but we are told to accept the whole Sri Guru Granth as our Guru...as the absolute truth...
> ..


 
I'm afraid that I don't agree with many of the aspects because it looks at the issue from a self made tinted lens.
Every aspect can be argued with one by one, and point for point.

There is one path to the Harimandar but there are 4 entrances.
I'm afraid the author can only see one path, one entrance and ignorantly ignores the other three !


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## gur_meet

Luckysingh said:


> I'm afraid that I don't agree with many of the aspects because it looks at the issue from a self made tinted lens.
> Every aspect can be argued with one by one, and point for point.
> 
> There is one path to the Harimandar but there are 4 entrances.
> I'm afraid the author can only see one path, one entrance and ignorantly ignores the other three !



Lucky Singh ji 

There are many many tinted glasses. There are so many interpretations.That is the effect of maya. It does't let one know the Satt (truth) in one go. The crossing of barriers need steps. The seeker has to sift. It is a Knoj(search) and and in the process the change comes.
When one finds some understanding another higher door opens up .

The Sikh moving on the path only has to say at the tinted glass  " now this is not so" and moves further with only Guru as guide . The tinted glass keeps changing. There is a higher version next.

I too do not agree and so does chaz ji to aspects of the article.  Let the article be. No need to argue the points. Please go ahead and explain further.


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## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> I'm afraid that I don't agree with many of the aspects because it looks at the issue from a self made tinted lens.
> Every aspect can be argued with one by one, and point for point.
> 
> There is one path to the Harimandar but there are 4 entrances.
> I'm afraid the author can only see one path, one entrance and ignorantly ignores the other three !



i found the article quite judgemental...marking people with the same brush...

yes he pointed out that many people do simran in a robotic fashion, for material gain...but He failed to see the broader view of this subject and that many people are reaping the spiritual benefits of Simran and do so with no want or need of material gain whatsoever...

*there are good plumbers and bad plumbers...they all co-exist...this is just the way of the world...it's the same with any religious practice...both are required for our experiences and upliftement*

But as soon as i read the discounting of the shabad 'Waheguru' and the loving way it was used as not having it's importance due to not being written by the Guru Ji's themselves...

that was just something very strange indeed...


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## Harry Haller

> But as soon as i read the discounting of the shabad 'Waheguru' and the loving way it was used as not having it's importance due to not being written by the Guru Ji's themselves...
> 
> that was just something very strange indeed...



I am afraid it was that very point that made me take a hard look at my own arguments, personally, my own stance now is live and let live, if meditation works, then neither Mr Dhillon, me, or anyone has the right to mock. 

Good luck with the meditation gentlemen..


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## chazSingh

harry haller said:


> I am afraid it was that very point that made me take a hard look at my own arguments, personally, my own stance now is live and let live, if meditation works, then neither Mr Dhillon, me, or anyone has the right to mock.
> 
> Good luck with the meditation gentlemen..




looks like Harry Ji's account has been hacked...


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## Harry Haller

chazSingh said:


> looks like Harry Ji's account has been hacked...



no, not at all, its not like you guys are into animal sacrifice, rape and pillage is it, I can see where your coming from, I have no wish to be as pedantic as I have been, lets move on


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

I visit the Net daily..randomsly asking questions form Google and reading....and i agree with Harry Hailer ji....just like some swear by their holy grandmothers that ahuge dose of...say..papaya seeds "cured" their knee pain..instantly...others claim that eating a ton of the same papaya seeds didnt make an iota of difference...this is a fact of life..what works for A,B,Z doesnt work for C,D, and Y..live with it. For some Mediation...kundali yogs and various positions..etc etc.. works..for others its junk..live with it.:kaurkhalsaflagblue::kaurkhalsaflagblue::kaurkhalsaflagblue:


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## chazSingh

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I visit the Net daily..randomsly asking questions form Google and reading....and i agree with Harry Hailer ji....just like some swear by their holy grandmothers that ahuge dose of...say..papaya seeds "cured" their knee pain..instantly...others claim that eating a ton of the same papaya seeds didnt make an iota of difference...this is a fact of life..what works for A,B,Z doesnt work for C,D, and Y..live with it. For some Mediation...kundali yogs and various positions..etc etc.. works..for others its junk..live with it.:kaurkhalsaflagblue::kaurkhalsaflagblue::kaurkhalsaflagblue:



just like you said, most things in life are subjective...ones own unique experience is the most important...

People are doing all these things in order to quench that thirst they are having inside for experience of God...
The things they do will slowly be refined through their experiences...

eventually you just realize all is in His hands, and that you cannot make anything happen yourself (ego) ... all these perceived efforts were just Him, guiding you along your unique experiences, slowly *chopping away at your Ego... *so regardless of the judgements made by others, aleays follow your heart and inner feeling..don;t fight it...try things, learn from them and then move forward with your new found Gian..

*I tried one method*...and had an amazing inner experience...
*For the following days i re-tried that method again and again*...but i have not been able to (Ego) re-produce that experience....i have no control over this (Ego is being challenged and chopped at)


Mind, body and spirit gets tired of all the perceived efforts and methods...one then just sits in a moment of silence, turns to Gurbani (our link to the Source) and holds it very close to their heart (love) where god is already waiting...

easier said than done  but will be worth it in the end


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## Awakeand Singh

Meditation is a useful technique for training the mind to concentrate deeply on one thing (the so-called, "Single-pointed mind"). This, in turn, will help the practitioner achieve Consciousness or Presence - which is what I believe the author of this excellent piece is getting at when attempting to describe Simran in language comprehensible to the Western mind. If I am mistaken, I would appreciate the author's clarification so I can get myself on track.
To Spnadmin, I would venture to say that Simran applies not just to situations we would expect, like, "feeding the hungry or soothing a crying child". It also applies to things like washing the dishes, changing a baby's diaper, walking across the room, ... and even sitting still with eyes closed.:grinningkaur:


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## Luckysingh

Awakeand Singh said:


> Meditation is a useful technique for training the mind to concentrate deeply on one thing (the so-called, "Single-pointed mind"). This, in turn, will help the practitioner achieve Consciousness or Presence - which is what I believe the author of this excellent piece is getting at when attempting to describe Simran in language comprehensible to the Western mind. If I am mistaken, I would appreciate the author's clarification so I can get myself on track.


 
Yes, the article starts off very well when it describes that simran is all done with the MIND... BUT, then the author goes off track on the wrong tangent when he talks about chanting not being gurmat.... (he seems to have lost the whole point of what he began the article with!) because he keeps the issue on the technique or jugtee of simran.


See my simple Q & A below, which highlight the points that are missing in the article....

_*Q*-Is chanting or using your tongue to utter God's name useless and not gurmat ?_
_*A*- YES_

_*Q-* Is Using a Mala/rosary or other tools to aid jap ..also useless ?_
_*A*- YES_

_*Q-*Why is this practice useless ? ... is this not naam simran ??_
_*A- *NO._
_Using tools to do simran is not forbidden and neither are they manmat...providing that they are used as tools only !_

_For example GUR-MAN-TAR _
_GUR=guru_
_Man= Mind_
_Tar= Tool_
_The gurmantar is a tool to aid and help in simran._

_*Q*- Doesn't the tongue do simran when you jap ?_
_*Q*- When someone uses mala or diva/candle..etc. to focus... are they not doing some sort of simran then ?_

_*ANSWER*- NO, to all the above, because if You are NOT doing simran or jap in your MIND.... then you are quite simply not doing simran._

_Simran Only happens when your MIND is focusing on nothing else but Waheguru._
_You can jap all you want until your tongue fatigues, because if your Mind is running in all directions in the act... then it is NOT simran.._
_it is simply an empty practice._

_In other words... parroting(someone's favourite poke!), can in fact, be completely gurmat if your MIND is focused on Waheguru !_

_*True Simran and jap only happens when it is done with the Mind !*_


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## Harry Haller

> To Spnadmin, I would venture to say that Simran applies not just to situations we would expect, like, "feeding the hungry or soothing a crying child". It also applies to things like washing the dishes, changing a baby's diaper, walking across the room, ... and even sitting still with eyes closed.



http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42350-spn-admin-narayanjot-kaur-passes-away.html


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## Awakeand Singh

harry haller said:


> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42350-spn-admin-narayanjot-kaur-passes-away.html



Harry, my time is limited (in every sense!), and I'm missing the point you're making with your reference to that other thread. Forgive me, could we just cut to the chase?


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## Harry Haller

> To Spnadmin, I would venture



she died of cancer a few months ago, I was not sure if you were aware


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## Awakeand Singh

Wow. Not aware at all.


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