# To Cover Our Heads Or Not?



## seeker3k

Hello all,

I just came back to Canada from my trip to India after 5 months.
It was exciting and interesting trip. When I was in India I use to read Ajit news paper in Punjabi. One of the jathedar had the message for the Sikhs that there should be no Gurus picture or Gurbani verses on the wedding cards. He claim that cards are thrown after the wedding that is insult to Gurus and Gurbani. I sent the email to SGPC but no one replied.
My question was and still is. Is that jathedar or SGPC telling us that the pictures of the guru are real picture? AS far as I know there is no real picture of any Guru. How can that be an insult to Gurus? As far as the Gurbani is concern I can understand but still have question about it. The picture and Gurbani is printed in all papers. Those papers are thrown away and use to wipe thing. Is it not insult to Gurbani?
There is a new twist in all that. One can search google for the bani. There are thousands of pages and full listing of SGGS on the internet. With the laptop and ebook we can read the bani every there. Even as we are eating or drinking coffee in cafe? Or in wash rooms.
What is the marjayda in these cases? Should we bow and cover our head when ever we read bani on ebook?


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## spnadmin

seeker3k ji

Most of what you have written -- all very interesting-- is not about covering one's head whilst reading Gurbani on the Internet. You have "covered" 3  possible discussion topics. Let's see how the conversation unwinds. I may have to merge this thread with another thread about covering one's head if that is direction things take. Thanks.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

> My question was and still is. Is that jathedar or SGPC telling us that the pictures of the guru are real picture? AS far as I know there is no real picture of any Guru. How can that be an insult to Gurus?



True. Thinking the pictures to be Guru would be an insult.



> As far as the Gurbani is concern I can understand but still have question about it. The picture and Gurbani is printed in all papers. Those papers are thrown away and use to wipe thing. Is it not insult to Gurbani?



Traditionally the Guru Granth Sahib or Gurbani in any paper form is cremated.



> There is a new twist in all that. One can search google for the bani. There are thousands of pages and full listing of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on the internet. With the laptop and ebook we can read the bani every there. Even as we are eating or drinking coffee in cafe? Or in wash rooms.



Many people when they do Paath from Laptop or Ebook or iPod prefer to sit cross legged with their shoes off. It depends on what respect you want to give to Gurbani. Whatever you give is less. Of course I would suggest if you are reading a laptop for Baani don't use it (even to listen to music or browse) in the washroom while sitting on the thinking pot.



> What is the marjayda in these cases? Should we bow and cover our head when ever we read bani on ebook?



I guess that is why we have Maryada is to cover head with turban all the time.


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## Ambarsaria

seeker3k said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I just came back to Canada from my trip to India after 5 months.
> It was exciting and interesting trip. When I was in India I use to read Ajit news paper in Punjabi. One of the jathedar had the message for the Sikhs that there should be no Gurus picture or Gurbani verses on the wedding cards. He claim that cards are thrown after the wedding that is insult to Gurus and Gurbani. I sent the email to SGPC but no one replied.
> My question was and still is. Is that jathedar or SGPC telling us that the pictures of the guru are real picture? AS far as I know there is no real picture of any Guru. How can that be an insult to Gurus? As far as the Gurbani is concern I can understand but still have question about it. The picture and Gurbani is printed in all papers. Those papers are thrown away and use to wipe thing. Is it not insult to Gurbani?
> There is a new twist in all that. One can search google for the bani. There are thousands of pages and full listing of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on the internet. With the laptop and ebook we can read the bani every there. Even as we are eating or drinking coffee in cafe? Or in wash rooms.
> What is the marjayda in these cases? Should we bow and cover our head when ever we read bani on ebook?


seeker3k ji some thoughts.


> What is the marjayda in these cases? Should we bow and cover our head when ever we read bani on ebook?
> 
> 
> gurduAwry​ (Gurdwara)​
> \)  sMgq ivc jW siqgurW dy pRkwS smyN iksy is`K nUM nMgy isr nhIN bYTxw cwhIdw[ sMgq ivc is`K iesqrIAW leI prdw krnw jW GuMf k`Fxw gurmiq ivru`D hY[
> 
> Head to be covered while sitting in a religious congregation or while Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is in “Prakash”, i.e.,
> 
> §         Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is open and placed in a location with due care as per Sikh Rehat Maryada including e.g.,
> o        the clean area,
> o        respectable accommodation for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to be respectfully and easily opened and be able to read without holding in one’s hand(s),
> o        a “Chananee” (cloth garment prepared in love and care to be strung above Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji),
> o        a “Chaur” (a hand held fanning device) and
> 
> gurimq dI rihxI​ (Living as per Gurmit)​
> 
> x)  is`K leI kCihry qy dsqwr qoN Cut puSwk sMbMDI bwkI koeI pwbMdI nhIN[ is`K iesqrI dsqwr sjwey jW nw
> sjwey, dovyN TIk hn[
> 
> Sikh has no dress limitations beyond wearing of Turban and “Kachehra” (undergarment).  For a Sikh female, the person may wear turban or not is of free choice.


  So it is pretty clear that there are very specific times that Head covering is required as per the quotes from Sikh Rehat Maryada.

  Equally importantly one has to consider the following from a common sense perspective,



> Is your inner psyche heavily polluted with *Kam. Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar* while such a question crops in your mind and you are thinking of whether to cover your head or not!
> 
> 
> 
> You need to talk to your inner self!





> If the answer to _any of the above five is a strong yes_, I humbly submit that you ain’t going to gain much from covering your head or doing any other fake rituals
> If the answer is that you have reasonable balance, your psyche will itself or should suggest necessary ways of humility, respect and best ways to satisfy your yearning for knowledge
> 
> Example:
> 
> 
> I knew a Nirankari follower who would purposely put the Nitnem and other Gurbani extract books on the toilet tank in the washroom.  I assume that outwardly the object was a show-off (ego – Ahankar) to emphasize that these are just books like magazines or Harlequin novels.
> What can be expected from such a person!
> Not much really as to be so brain washed and not recognize that that before learning comes your wisdom to learn.  If you are caught up in such a façade you wouldn’t go very far.
> That is what happened and continues to happen and the person is not a baby to not be able to figure it out if wished.


Again in terms of cards and writings or depiction of Guru persona, I believe it is personal and respectful decision that needs to be taken by the people initiating such request.  Again humility, respect, common sense can usually guide.  To talk about dis-respect and flag the wedding cards for such, one has to then ban all the newspapers as many have Gurbani lines and similar persona painting depictions.  Newspapers perhaps see more perverse and dis-respectful uses and disposition that the matter becomes irrelevant.



  I hope that is helpful for the dialog.

  Sat Sri Akal.


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## hpannu

Dear Sangat Members - for a SIKH head has to be covered all the time. Question of head to be covered while only reading Gurbani is absurd. As far as pictures are concerned they are just artists representation of the Gurus - Seeker3k Ji is right -it's just like any other picture. People doing dhoop or decorating them is against SIKHI !

Just my 2 cents.

ਭੁਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬਖਸ਼ ਦੇਣਾ ਜੀ

ਦਾਸ - ਹਰਜੋਤ ਸਿੰਘ


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## Ambarsaria

hpannu said:


> Dear Sangat Members - for a SIKH head has to be covered all the time. Question of head to be covered while only reading Gurbani is absurd. As far as pictures are concerned they are just artists representation of the Gurus - Seeker3k Ji is right -it's just like any other picture. People doing dhoop or decorating them is against SIKHI !
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> ਭੁਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬਖਸ਼ ਦੇਣਾ ਜੀ
> 
> ਦਾਸ - ਹਰਜੋਤ ਸਿੰਘ


hpannu ji I read the context of the question to be for all children, females, kurehatiye male/female sikhs (sehajdhari or who have cut their hair)!  The Kurehatiye are still Sikhs!

I believe Sikh Rehat Maryada also describes it in similar context.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin

Ambarsaria said:


> hpannu ji I read the context of the question to be for all children, females, kurehatiye male/female sikhs (sehajdhari or who have cut their hair)!  The Kurehatiye are still Sikhs!
> 
> I believe Sikh Rehat Maryada also describes it in similar context.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



You have put your finger on the crux of an ongoing issue that stands behind questions that should be simple and have simple answers. Not so! 

Everything depends on where one stands in relation to debates going back to the late 19th Century. Notably strain between Chief Khalsa Diwan and Panch Khalsa Diwan, but not limited to it. The SRM was too loose for some, too restrictive for others. So there it stands as the broad middle lane. The debate continues.


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## hpannu

Ambarsaria said:


> hpannu ji I read the context of the question to be for all children, females, kurehatiye male/female sikhs (sehajdhari or who have cut their hair)!  The Kurehatiye are still Sikhs!
> 
> I believe Sikh Rehat Maryada also describes it in similar context.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ॥

ਵੀਰ ਜੀ - If a person calls himself a SIKH - then he should cover his head all the time. Not just when going to Gurduara Sahib or doing Nitnem. Yes, this applies to everyone, including kids and females .......

SehajDhari is a different topic by itself and so is Kurehtiye. for example - a person cannot call himself Sehajdhari Sikh all his life. Sehajdhari is a person who is on path to become GURU KA SIKH - meaning day by day he is working towards it. Now - a person cannot call himself Sehajdhari if he was Sehajdhari in 70's, 80's, 90's ....... and still calls himself Sehajdhari. That concludes he is not on his way to GURU KA SIKH ........

Recently, last year there was a incident @ our Gurduara Sahib. where a person didn't cover his head in the Darbar Hall after Sukhasan was done. When questioned his answer was GOD is everywhere. Now a days - people are under the impression that we have to do this only when needed. It's not on a need be basis. 

Daas,
Harjot Singh


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## Ambarsaria

Sorry hpannu ji with the following you are rewriting Sikh Rehat Maryada,



> Not just when going to Gurduara Sahib or doing Nitnem. Yes, this applies to everyone, including kids and females .......
> _Sorry don't know where you grew up it must be very polished and City type locale or private school or highly religious family intolerant of less than perfect Sikhs.
> 
> This is not Guruan's land like Amritsar or Punjab or many villages that make this land._​
> SehajDhari is a different topic by itself and so is Kurehtiye.
> _Sorry again it is not a different topic unless you want to make it so.__  It is covered as a Kurehat and that is how it is with no definition of times that you have inserted.  One cannot take this or leave that or add something else in Sikh Rehat Maryada unless it is done through "Gur Matah" per Sikh Rehat Maryada._​


Of course striving for the ideal and living the ideal is good.

If you looking for purest of the pure (No Kurehatiye or Tankhayeah (Rehat deviation)), let me know if you are one or know someone who is!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

The question I want to ask is..Just How many "sikhs" HANG THEIR HEADS IN SHAME...when they consume alcohol...engage in DOWRY TORTURE....Female Foetecide...Female Child DISCRIMINATION....dance wildly in drunk state in bhangras wedding parties...????..Fight in Gurdwaras over CONTROL.....and appear in the Courts Charged with petty crimes like illegal immigration, forged passports, cheating..bribery..etc etc etc....EVEN IF ALL THESE "SIKHS" have PERFECT HEAD COVERINGS ( Patiala Shahee Dastaars or ROYAL TURBANS )...they need to HANG THOSE IN SHAME !!!

TOO MUCH EMPTY FOKA DIKHAWA..show off..ritualised behaviour has overtaken us...we are EMPTY SHELLS or DRUMS making loud noises....SAD !!..even our Govt is run by S.A.D. !!peacesign


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## Ishna

If everyone is to cover our heads all the time to please God then why aren't we born with a head covering?

Same argument in reverse is why would it please God to remove the foreskin when men are born with it attached?

What is the CORE REASON why Sikhs cover their head?  Is this core reason relevant in the wide expanse of the limitless and vastly incomprehensible UNIVERSE that it should be for everyone of all ages, all genders, everywhere, all the time without question?

Is the CORE REASON a social / cultural / traditional one?  If so, what is it trying to express?  What is the reason behind it?


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## hpannu

Ambarsaria said:


> Sorry hpannu ji with the following you are rewriting Sikh Rehat Maryada,
> 
> Of course striving for the ideal and living the ideal is good.
> 
> If you looking for purest of the pure (No Kurehatiye or Tankhayeah (Rehat deviation)), let me know if you are one or know someone who is!
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Ambarsaria Ji - Truth is truth you cannot hide it that's all i am saying Like it or not. If i say - SIKH is under HUKAM to keep KESH or cover his KESH or GURU GRANTH SAHIB ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇਹਧਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀ or believe in the Teachings of 10 Gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Kirat karni and so on ......... I would like to ask you whether this is true or not. If i am wrong let me know.



		Code:
	

If you looking for purest of the pure (No Kurehatiye or Tankhayeah  (Rehat deviation)), let me know if you are one or know someone who is!


I didn't say i am perfect or i am pure and you are not. oh yes, it would be nice to see purest of the pure in this corrupt world - there are not many we all know that.



		Code:
	

Sorry don't know where you grew up it must be very  polished and City type locale or private school or highly religious  family intolerant of less than perfect Sikhs.  
 
This is not Guruan's land like Amritsar or Punjab or many villages that make this land.


Please - tell me when did i say i come from a highly religous family intolerant of less than perfect Sikhs. We all are imperfect ...........

and this is not Guruan's land like Amritsar or Punjab ......   Are you saying it's ok to cover our head in Punjab / Guru's land and not ok over here. 
This is what i don't like and don't want to get further into argument after this reply of mine. This is exactly the example i was giving in my earlier reply - people now a days think it's ok not to cover the head in Darbar Hall of Gurduara Sahib because Guru Granth Sahib is not present after Sukhasan Seva. Just look at the ladies during diwan half of their head is not covered at all because of their style and fashion.

Lastly Sehajdhari and Kurehatiye - I only said it's a different topic because it's a debate by itself - meaning who is Sehajdhari and Kurehatiye is a big topic ( i didn't mean different topic ). I consider myself and majority of the SIKHS to be Sehajdhari. Even if you adorn Kesh or not. We are not perfect and if we fall into the Sehajdhari category then we should be making an attempt to be GURU KA SIKH ........that's all - it's simple - not a rocket science. What i don't like is people calling themselves Sehajdhari and like Giani Jarnail Singh in his reply said - Drink alcohol, dowry issues, Kuri Maar (female foeticide) ............ it goes on and on

ਸੰਗਤ ਤੋ ਮਾਫੀ ਮੰਗਦਾਂ ਹਾਂ for getting into an argument.
Please forgive me.

Daas,
Harjot Singh

The following is from while doing Sehaj Path this morning -




ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ਪਹਿਲਾ  - ਅੰਗ 1013

ਛਾਣੀ  ਖਾਕੁ  ਬਿਭੂਤ  ਚੜਾਈ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਕਾ  ਮਗੁ  ਜੋਹੈ  ॥ 
He sifts through the dust, and applies ashes to his body, but he is searching for the path of Maya's wealth. 

ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਬਾਹਰਿ  ਏਕੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਣੈ  ਸਾਚੁ  ਕਹੇ  ਤੇ  ਛੋਹੈ  ॥ 
Inwardly and outwardly, he does not know the One Lord; if someone tells him the Truth, he grows angry. 

ਪਾਠੁ  ਪੜੈ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਝੂਠੋ  ਬੋਲੈ  ਨਿਗੁਰੇ  ਕੀ  ਮਤਿ  ਓਹੈ  ॥ 
He reads the scriptures, but tells lies; such is the intellect of one who has no Guru. 

ਨਾਮੁ  ਨ  ਜਪਈ  ਕਿਉ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਪਾਵੈ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਨਾਵੈ  ਕਿਉ  ਸੋਹੈ  ॥੪॥ 
Without chanting the Naam, how can he find peace? Without the Name, how can he look good? ||4|| 

ਮੂੰਡੁ  ਮੁਡਾਇ  ਜਟਾ  ਸਿਖ  ਬਾਧੀ  ਮੋਨਿ  ਰਹੈ  ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ  ॥ 
Some shave their heads,  some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it in braids, while  some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride. 

ਮਨੂਆ  ਡੋਲੈ  ਦਹ  ਦਿਸ  ਧਾਵੈ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਰਤ  ਆਤਮ  ਗਿਆਨਾ  ॥ 
Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul. 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਛੋਡਿ  ਮਹਾ  ਬਿਖੁ  ਪੀਵੈ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਕਾ  ਦੇਵਾਨਾ  ॥ 
They abandon the Ambrosial Nectar, and drink the deadly poison, driven mad by Maya. 

ਕਿਰਤੁ  ਨ  ਮਿਟਈ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਨ  ਬੂਝੈ  ਪਸੂਆ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਸਮਾਨਾ  ॥੫॥ 
Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord's Command, they become beasts. ||5||


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## Ambarsaria

hpannu ji thanks for your post just some comments.


> SIKH is under HUKAM to keep KESH or cover his KESH! or GURU GRANTH SAHIB  ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇਹਧਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀ or believe in the Teachings of 10  Gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Kirat karni and  so on ......... I would like to ask you whether this is true or not. If i  am wrong let me know.
> 
> _Ambarsaria:  I do not accept your language but the language of Sikh Rehat Maryada._ _ They may sound similar but these are not the same_


The following is true from the Panth as Khalsa for me nothing more nothing less,



> *is`K dI qwrI&*​     jo iesqrI jW purS iek Akwl purK, ds gurU swihbwn (sRI gurU nwnk dyv jI qoN lY ky sRI gurU goibMd isMG swihb qk), sRI gurU gRMQ swihb Aqy ds gurU swihbwn dI bwxI qy is`iKAw Aqy dsmyS jI dy AMimRq au`qy inScw r`Kdw hY Aqy iksy hor Drm nUM nhIN mMNndw, auh is`K hY[
> 
> *Examplification of a Sikh*​ The woman or man who believes in one creator, ten Gurus (Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji), Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Gurbani of ten Gurus and their teachings and has belief in Baptization of the pure of Dashmesh ji and does not believe in another religion, is a Sikh.​
> 
> _I accept the above _


hspannu ji the following is not in right context,



> and this is not Guruan's land like Amritsar or Punjab ......   Are you  saying it's ok to cover our head in Punjab / Guru's land and not ok over  here. _... this is triviality .  Small children playing in dirt, kids catching buffalo's tail swimming in a canal, girls in a swing with air in their hair, old ladies sitting in the sun with hair down after oil massage, ....., that is Punjab, Sikhs live and do that, they are not bad Sikhs for that.  Not having your head covered outside of Gurdwara is an indiscretion and not a Kurehat.  Let us keep things in scope.  This is what I meant.  May be it did not come across as such.
> _
> 
> This is what i don't like and don't want to get further into argument  after this reply of mine. This is exactly the example i was giving in my  earlier reply - people now a days think it's ok not to cover the head  in Darbar Hall of Gurduara Sahib because Guru Granth Sahib is not  present after Sukhasan Seva.
> 
> _I did not condone the above!_
> 
> Just look at the ladies during diwan half  of their head is not covered at all because of their style and fashion.
> _
> Sorry I don't pay attention to ladies heads in the Gurdwara as I like to see happy faces!  We all look at life differently for sure.
> _
> _Ladies in the Gurdwara with half head covered are better than ladies not in the Gurdwara for me.  Let people be happy a bit. Half head covered is not end of the world.  Once they are enlightened they will look at us and  start smiling for our foolishness and pettiness at times!_


Sorry in terms of "Sehajdhari" I was not trying to add any spirituality to the word as I could have been more proper to say "people who cut their hair".  I will hug a Sikh with cut hair and a good soul any day.  Hair grow all our lives and may God give them support to be complete Sikh.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna

Can some Gurbani about covering one's head be provided please?


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## Ambarsaria

Ishna said:


> Can some Gurbani about covering one's head be provided please?


Ishna ji if you search "head cover" under advanced settings at srigranth.org you get three shabads.  Generally the context is the false practices and little value of those.  Here is a nice shabad but may not be exactly what you are looking for. I can delete it if not right,



> ਸਲੋਕ  ਸਹਸਕ੍ਰਿਤੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
> सलोक सहसक्रिती महला १ ॥
> Salok sėhaskiriṯī mėhlā 1.
> Shalok Sehskritee, First Mehl:
> ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ  ਪੁਸ੍ਤਕ  ਸੰਧਿਆ  ਬਾਦੰ  ॥
> पड़्हि पुस्तक संधिआ बादं ॥
> Paṛĥ pusṯak sanḏẖi▫ā bāḏaŉ.
> You study the scriptures, say your prayers and argue;
> ਸਿਲ  ਪੂਜਸਿ  ਬਗੁਲ  ਸਮਾਧੰ  ॥
> सिल पूजसि बगुल समाधं ॥
> Sil pūjas bagul samāḏẖaŉ.
> you worship stones and sit like a crane, pretending to meditate.
> ਮੁਖਿ  ਝੂਠੁ  ਬਿਭੂਖਨ  ਸਾਰੰ  ॥
> मुखि झूठु बिभूखन सारं ॥
> Mukẖ jẖūṯẖ bibẖūkẖan sāraŉ.
> You speak lies and well-ornamented falsehood,
> ਤ੍ਰੈਪਾਲ  ਤਿਹਾਲ  ਬਿਚਾਰੰ  ॥
> त्रैपाल तिहाल बिचारं ॥
> Ŧaraipāl ṯihāl bicẖāraŉ.
> and recite your daily prayers three times a day.
> ਗਲਿ  ਮਾਲਾ  ਤਿਲਕ  ਲਿਲਾਟੰ  ॥
> गलि माला तिलक लिलाटं ॥
> Gal mālā ṯilak lilātaŉ.
> The mala is around your neck, and the sacred tilak mark is on your forehead.
> ਦੁਇ  ਧੋਤੀ  ਬਸਤ੍ਰ  ਕਪਾਟੰ  ॥
> दुइ धोती बसत्र कपाटं ॥
> Ḏu▫e ḏẖoṯī basṯar kapātaŉ.
> *You wear two loin cloths, and keep your head covered.*
> ਜੋ  ਜਾਨਸਿ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰ  ਕਰਮੰ  ॥
> जो जानसि ब्रहमं करमं ॥
> Jo jānas barahmaŉ karmaŉ.
> If you know God and the nature of karma,
> ਸਭ  ਫੋਕਟ  ਨਿਸਚੈ  ਕਰਮੰ  ॥
> सभ फोकट निसचै करमं ॥
> Sabẖ fokat niscẖai karmaŉ.
> you know that all these rituals and beliefs are useless.
> ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਿਸਚੌ  ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਵੈ  ॥
> कहु नानक निसचौ *िध्यावै ॥
> Kaho Nānak niscẖou ḏẖi▫yāvai.
> Says Nanak, meditate on the Lord with faith.
> ਬਿਨੁ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਬਾਟ  ਨ  ਪਾਵੈ  ॥੧॥
> बिनु सतिगुर बाट न पावै ॥१॥
> Bin saṯgur bāt na pāvai. ||1||
> Without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. ||1||
> ਨਿਹਫਲੰ  ਤਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ  ਜਨਮਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ  ਜਾਵਦ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਨ  ਬਿੰਦਤੇ  ॥
> निहफलं तस्य जनमस्य जावद ब्रहम न बिंदते ॥
> Nihfalaŉ ṯas▫y janmas▫y jāvaḏ barahm na binḏṯe.
> The mortal's life is fruitless, as long as he does not know God.
> ਸਾਗਰੰ  ਸੰਸਾਰਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ  ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਤਰਹਿ  ਕੇ  ॥
> सागरं संसारस्य गुर परसादी तरहि के ॥
> Sāgraŉ sansārsa▫y gur parsādī ṯarėh ke.
> Only a few, by Guru's Grace, cross over the world-ocean.
> ਕਰਣ  ਕਾਰਣ  ਸਮਰਥੁ  ਹੈ  ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਬੀਚਾਰਿ  ॥
> करण कारण समरथु है कहु नानक बीचारि ॥
> Karaṇ kāraṇ samrath hai kaho Nānak bīcẖār.
> The Creator, the Cause of causes, is All-powerful. Thus speaks Nanak, after deep deliberation.
> ਕਾਰਣੁ  ਕਰਤੇ  ਵਸਿ  ਹੈ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਕਲ  ਰਖੀ  ਧਾਰਿ  ॥੨॥
> कारणु करते वसि है जिनि कल रखी धारि ॥२॥
> Kāraṇ karṯe vas hai jin kal rakẖī ḏẖār. ||2||
> The Creation is under the control of the Creator. By His Power, He sustains and supports it. ||2||
> ਜੋਗ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਗਿਆਨ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਬੇਦ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਤ  ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਹ  ॥
> जोग सबदं गिआन सबदं बेद सबदं त ब्राहमणह ॥
> Jog sabḏaŉ gi▫ān sabḏaŉ beḏ sabḏaŉ ṯa barahmaṇėh.
> The Shabad is Yoga, the Shabad is spiritual wisdom; the Shabad is the Vedas for the Brahmin.
> ਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤ੍ਰੀ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਸੂਰ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਸੂਦ੍ਰ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਪਰਾ  ਕ੍ਰਿਤਹ  ॥
> ख्यत्री सबदं सूर सबदं सूद्र सबदं परा क्रितह ॥
> Kẖa▫yṯarī sabḏaŉ sūr sabḏaŉ sūḏar sabḏaŉ parā kirṯėh.
> The Shabad is heroic bravery for the Kshatriya; the Shabad is service to others for the Soodra.
> ਸਰਬ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਤ  ਏਕ  ਸਬਦੰ  ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਜਾਨਸਿ  ਭੇਉ  ॥
> सरब सबदं त एक सबदं जे को जानसि भेउ ॥
> Sarab sabḏaŉ ṯa ek sabḏaŉ je ko jānas bẖe▫o.
> The Shabad for all is the Shabad, the Word of the One God, for one who knows this secret.
> ਨਾਨਕ  ਤਾ  ਕੋ  ਦਾਸੁ  ਹੈ  ਸੋਈ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨ  ਦੇਉ  ॥੩॥
> नानक ता को दासु है सोई निरंजन देउ ॥३॥
> Nānak ṯā ko ḏās hai so▫ī niranjan ḏe▫o. ||3||
> Nanak is the slave of the Divine, Immaculate Lord. ||3||
> ਏਕ  ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨੰ  ਤ  ਸਰਬ  ਦੇਵਾ  ਦੇਵ  ਦੇਵਾ  ਤ  ਆਤਮਹ  ॥
> एक क्रिस्नं त सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमह ॥
> Ėk krisanŉ ṯa sarab ḏevā ḏev ḏevā ṯa āṯmah.
> The One Lord is the Divinity of all divinities and he is the Divinity of the soul;
> ਆਤਮੰ  ਸ੍ਰੀ  ਬਾਸ੍ਵਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ  ਜੇ  ਕੋਈ  ਜਾਨਸਿ  ਭੇਵ  ॥
> आतमं स्री बास्वदेवस्य जे कोई जानसि भेव ॥
> Āṯmaŉ sarī bāsavḏaivas▫y je ko▫ī jānas bẖev.
> if any one knows the mystery of the soul and the Omnipresent Lord.
> ਨਾਨਕ  ਤਾ  ਕੋ  ਦਾਸੁ  ਹੈ  ਸੋਈ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨ  ਦੇਵ  ॥੪॥
> नानक ता को दासु है सोई निरंजन देव ॥४॥
> Nānak ṯā ko ḏās hai so▫ī niranjan ḏev. ||4||
> Nanak  is the slave of that one who knows the Secrets of the soul and the  Supreme Lord God. He is the Divine Immaculate Lord Himself. ||4||


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna

Thanks Ambarsaria ji.

Question to all: If head covering wasn't considered important enough by the Guru to be included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an order for Sikhs to do it, then where does the big deal come from? How do Sikhs get practices from sources other than their Guru?


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## Ambarsaria

Ishna said:


> Thanks Ambarsaria ji.
> 
> Question to all: If head covering wasn't considered important enough by the Guru to be included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an order for Sikhs to do it, then where does the big deal come from? How do Sikhs get practices from sources other than their Guru?


Ishna ji I am not a scholar in this kind of discussion but a lay person.  

My thoughts would be it is cultural, social and practical that leads into a uniqueness of persona if adopted well, as in Sikhisim.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

> to be included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib



Things which are not explicitly included in Guru Granth Sahib - suggestion to go to SPN and share views  and Your and mine existence. But if things are not stated, doesn't mean you don't have to do it.

ਵਜਾਇਆ ਵਾਜਾ ਪਉਣ ਨਉ ਦੁਆਰੇ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਕੀਏ ਦਸਵਾ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਰਖਾਇਆ ॥
He blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body, and revealed the nine doors; but He kept the Tenth Door hidden.

Guru clearly says that the Tenth Door is hidden. As are so many things. They come forth as one practices the Shabad of Guru. But for what is known, we tie a top knot which is meant to be our spiritual (and perhaps physical) location of the Tenth Door. We tie turban around our head to protect it and hair and our crackable skulls. Is the safety of your brain important to you or not?



> If everyone is to cover our heads all the time to please God then why aren't we born with a head covering



If you think so, then I believe all birds should be born with nests. Is it so? No. Birds have to build their own nests. Sikhs have to tie their own turbans.

Finally my advice is that it is good to question, but lack of answers doesn't mean one should give up following Maryada.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh ji


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## Ishna

Great post Kanwajit ji.  I'm not suggesting giving up Maryada, just trying to get ideas from outside the box.  Examples about turbans are fine however it is strange to be targeted to men and not all people.

WHY do vast majority of women cover their heads with chunnis/dupattas and not turbans?


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## seeker3k

Forgive for being blunt.

Sikhisn was there till the Gobibd Singh batiste the 5 pyare. Non of the Guru from the 1st to 9th gave any instructions to cover the head.  Even the 10th never made it compulsory for every Sikh only those do the amrit pan.
The majyada is set up by men after the gurus were gone. Now if this marjyada passes that will become the law just like the other marjyadas.

We have to think where we want to take this great  Idea?

It is mean that those who don’t take amrit are not Sikhs?  
As for Kanwaljit Singh
I would suggest if you are reading a laptop for Baani don't use it (even to listen to music or browse) in the washroom while sitting on the thinking pot..


In India there are speaker blasting bani from 4am. What shall one do as far as going to the think pot? How can we not listen to bani then?

I am sorry that I offended many here. But truth always hurt

Why is that when I try to reply with quat in the message come back thar message is too short to post? Need help here


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

> Sikhisn was there till the Gobibd Singh batiste the 5 pyare. Non of the Guru from the 1st to 9th gave any instructions to cover the head. Even the 10th never made it compulsory for every Sikh only those do the amrit pan


 
The first phase of writing Guru Granth Sahib was completed in presence of Guru Arjan. So I guess by that time he would have surely made sure Sikhs came with heads covered. The concept of Miri Piri and keeping 2 Kirpans was started by Guru Hargobind.

Guru Gobind Singh only formalized certain aspects of religion. He gave us the starting point. Amrit is the starting point in a way. When people used to take pledge under the first 9 Gurus, they used to take Charan Amrit.



> The majyada is set up by men after the gurus were gone. Now if this marjyada passes that will become the law just like the other marjyadas.


 
I guess you are more than wrong here. Maryada is based on lives of Guru themselves. They lived this life, Sikhs followed it and that's how it is. Every now and then, I come across an aspect of Maryada reflecting in Guru Granth Sahib or Nitnem Baani shabad, any of Guru's Saakhis or Bhai Gurdas ji di vaaraa. We have great Sikh literature which we need to read a lot before we come to any assumption.




> It is mean that those who don’t take amrit are not Sikhs?


 
I cannot comment on this without being judgemental and wrong. But if you know the worth of taking Amrit, and you have not taken.. then one should know that they have to submit their head and ego to Guru. They should think of it as a payment which is long due.



> What shall one do as far as going to the think pot? How can we not listen to bani then?


 
This reminds me of a story. One guy goes and asks the priest.. can I smoke while remembering God? The priest says no. Other guy comes to know of it. He goes to the priest and asks.. can I remember God while smoking? The priest says YES. In the end, both guys know what to do and what not to do. They are just wasting time asking such questions.

In a generation not far far away, people used to refrain from taking books inside loo. They wouldn't want Vidya to go inside there. Ways have changed. But I would say over the years the whole notion and general standard of being 'respectful' towards something has come down.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

> WHY do vast majority of women cover their heads with chunnis/dupattas and not turbans?


 
I don't know Ishna ji. I can't say. All I know is that 2 bibis I knew personally in Hyderabad. They used to cut their hair initially. Now they have taken up Amrit and even tie their turban/keski. When you see such devoted dedication, you don't think about anything else.


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## findingmyway

1) The Guru's before Nanak10 did not need make head covering mandatory as it would have been done as standard at that time

2) Covering the head has 3 practical functions and is not merely cultural. It is a sign of respect, it protects our precious kesh and it gives us an identity so that we can't run away from our responsibilities. At that time turban would have been mainly for royalty so its emphasis that we are all worthy and equal.

3) Women and men should both wear turbans for equality. However, a lot of women don't due to personal and cultural reasons. That is changing. Each person has to make their own decisions.

4) The shabad above has been read out of context. It is actually talking about how emphasis on outer appearance only is wrong. Inner and outer appearance should reflect each other.

5) Best case scenario is all Sikhs wearing a turban all the time but we are humans and Sikhi is a journey that will be different for each person so lets not be judgemental about those who are not ready to keep head covered all the time. Sikhi is not dogmatic but pragmatic.

6) The most important thing is to connect with Gurbani respectfully. This will be achieved differently depending on the person and where they are on the pathway. In a Gurdwara head should always be covered out of respect.


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## spnadmin

Respected forum members, 

I have a question that so far has not been asked. How would tying dastar protect the 10th Gate? Throughout Gurbani the 10th gate is not a physical location, not in the brain nor the head, having no material nature?

I have read nearly 60 shabads now and do not see a single one where a description of the 10th Gate applies  in the physical sense. Would appreciate a response.


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## Ambarsaria

spnadmin said:


> Respected forum members,
> 
> I have a question that so far has not been asked. How would tying dastar protect the 10th Gate? Throughout Gurbani the 10th gate is not a physical location, not in the brain nor the head, having no material nature?
> 
> I have read nearly 60 shabads now and do not see a single one where a description of the 10th Gate applies  in the physical sense. Would appreciate a response.


spnadmin ji why are you asking difficult questions of grown people peacesign

Now they are going to look for Dasam Dwar or the Tenth Gate.  Please people save some time and check this thread,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/8560-dasam-dwar-2.html

Let the spirit of the creator cover the Dasam Dwar, that is if there is something like that versus calling the opening of your inner soul (as Dasam Dwar) to understand the creator. 

I would not like to cover Dasam Dwar in the fear of suffocating spirituality just as I would not cover my eyes, plug my nostrils or plug my ears or try describing my other dwars (which to me is crude)japposatnamwaheguru: 

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna

I could be really cynical, point to the 'female' symbol next to my name and say I know exactly where my tenth gate is, if we're talking physical.

Or do only men have a tenth gate?

Or is this proof that it is NOT physical?

Isn't it food for another thread anyway?


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## Ambarsaria

Ishna ji, it is definitely food for another thread like the one about eating meat by Randip Singh ji,

"Fools who wrangle over Dasam Dwar"

I am aghast at some people quoting Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to get literal answers to such questions?  They miss the whole Gurbani Ship sailing in tranquil seas and keep paddling like crazy in a dingy!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin

*My ruling: *

japposatnamwaheguru:

Reference to dasam dwar is relevant to this thread in this sense. A reason given for tying dastar is to protect the 10th gate. 




> ਵਜਾਇਆ ਵਾਜਾ ਪਉਣ ਨਉ ਦੁਆਰੇ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਕੀਏ ਦਸਵਾ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਰਖਾਇਆ ॥
> He blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body, and revealed the nine doors; but He kept the Tenth Door hidden.
> 
> Guru clearly says that the Tenth Door is hidden. As are so many things. They come forth as one practices the Shabad of Guru. But for what is known, we tie a top knot which is meant to be our spiritual (and perhaps physical) location of the Tenth Door. We tie turban around our head to protect it and hair and our crackable skulls. Is the safety of your brain important to you or not?



Now I am trying to figure out how this would work.
:whatzpointkudi:


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## Ambarsaria

spnadmin ji if you figure out the following,



> Reference to dasam dwar is relevant to this thread in this sense. _A  reason given_ for tying dastar is to protect the 10th gate. _(May I please know by who!)_ Now I am  trying to figure out how that would work.


You can stop learning as you will be one with the creator and would have reached a stage of as much as one can learn about the creator!  As Professor Sahib Singh ji says, don't go for it.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji directly warns us also about such endeavors.

:angryadminkaur:

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Ishan Ji really tickled me...YES there are other "dwaars" that are always kept covered !! and they are not "hidden" yet they are not revealed either !!( at least by civilised people in polite society)...Just as there is a "third EYE"...so is there a dasam duaar...its opened via practise....
and Ambarsariahs ji tickled me with his dingy paddling....those dingy sailors have decided to jump ship..when the  MOTHER ship is in perfect shape..utter fools...will be paddling dingys all their lives and go no where...


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## Ishna

I think we need a 'Sikh (albeit confused) madly paddling a dingy' smiley!  peacesign


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## ac_marshall

Respected All,
I'm a non Sikh by birth but respect the divine Gurus like any practising Sikh. If permitted, I would like to put forward some points with respect to covering the head on the basis of my experience with people in India from various faiths and some spare time research into Indian History. I could find that historically, the turban has been a symbol of honour and that it was mostly worn by dignitaries. People on lower scale in the social order were not allowed to wear turbans while a king or any higher person on the social order passed or stopped. They had to remove the head gear, fold their hands and bow. This unfair ritual was in practice. 

Guru Nanak Devji was a revolutionary social reformer who questioned social injustices and promoted equality of all human beings. As per the Sikh tenet of considering the entire human race as one, all human beings are equal irrespective of social order. This could have been shown symbolically while followers from all backgrounds wore turbans to show equality of all of them upholding their honours. 

This is just my thought on this matter that I felt like sharing with no intended offence. I seek your pardon and request you to correct me wherever I'm wrong.

Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin

ac_marshall said:


> Respected All,
> People on lower scale in the social order were not allowed to wear turbans while a king or any higher person on the social order passed or stopped. They had to remove the head gear, fold their hands and bow. This unfair ritual was in practice.
> 
> Guru Nanak Devji was a revolutionary social reformer who questioned social injustices and promoted equality of all human beings. As per the Sikh tenet of considering the entire human race as one, all human beings are equal irrespective of social order. This could have been shown symbolically while followers from all backgrounds wore turbans to show equality of all of them upholding their honours.
> 
> This is just my thought on this matter that I felt like sharing with no intended offence. I seek your pardon and request you to correct me wherever I'm wrong.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal



ac marshall ji

Why seek pardon at all? Ambarsaria ji at the beginning of this thread alluded to the political and cultural reasons for tying dastar. You have described exactly how the turban became part of the revolutionary movement that was begun by Guru Nanak. And, you have given his reasoning. Donning a turban, rejecting caste, honoring women, all this was how Guru Nanak worked to move a people forward whose spirits had been sickened by the moral corruption of those very religious and political overlords who dared to keep everyone else in a socially and spiritually humiliated state. Guru Gobind Singh institutionalized dastar as a symbol of Sikh identity. Today we celebrate the liberation of our identity by honoring and wearing a turban.

Guru Arjan Dev joyously describes the feeling of moral victory that accompanies/is symbolized in turban/dastar once we face  the real oppressors (the five thieves) and are able to overcome them:


ਹਉ ਗੋਸਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਵਾਨੜਾ ॥
Ho Gosaaee Dhaa Pehilavaanarraa ||
I am a wrestler; I belong to the Lord of the World.

ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਉਚ ਦੁਮਾਲੜਾ ॥
Mai Gur Mil Ouch Dhumaalarraa ||
I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ਛਿੰਝ ਇਕਠੀਆ ਦਯੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੭॥
Sabh Hoee Shhinjh Eikatheeaa Dhay Baithaa Vaekhai Aap Jeeo ||17||
All have gathered to watch the wrestling match, and the Merciful Lord Himself is seated to behold it. ||17||

ਵਾਤ ਵਜਨਿ ਟੰਮਕ ਭੇਰੀਆ ॥
Vaath Vajan Ttanmak Bhaereeaa ||
The bugles play and the drums beat.

ਮਲ ਲਥੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਫੇਰੀਆ ॥
Mal Lathhae Laidhae Faereeaa ||
The wrestlers enter the arena and circle around.


ਨਿਹਤੇ ਪੰਜਿ ਜੁਆਨ ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਥਾਪੀ ਦਿਤੀ ਕੰਡਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੮॥
Nihathae Panj Juaan Mai Gur Thhaapee Dhithee Kandd Jeeo ||18||
I have thrown the five challengers to the ground, and the Guru has patted me on the back. ||18||


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## spnadmin

Several comments on this thread have been moved as a new thread to this link: Biting the Hand that Helps http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/35030-biting-the-hand-that-helps.html


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## Ishna

This thread might have some relevant information regarding head covering and digital gurbani:

Respect to Gurbani in Other Languages


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## findingmyway

Here's more info about the dasam dwaar
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/607-what-is-dasam-duaar-5.html#post136774

From what I've figured out the dasam dwaar is understanding and the brain is the physical vehicle that allows this. Without a brain understanding cannot arise so protecting it is pertinent. My father was once attacked from behind with a bat. It was his turban that protected and saved him :angryyoungsingh:


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## seeker3k

Kanwaljit Singh Ji,

Can you give us the proof it that 10th guru made it mandatory to cover the head to all the Sikhs?  I have not read it in any where that any guru made it mandatory to cover the head.

In the old testament when Moses went up the mountain to see God. God told him to take off his shoes and cover his head when ever you are in holy place. I have seen Jews in their worship place go bare head some do put on a kind of had on their head. They do not remove their shoes.

There is no where in the SGGS that we must cover the head or take shoes off. Thos who wish to do that let them those who don’t want to do it let them keep it on or head not cover.
We should live by the SGGS not get tangled by the useless rituals


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## Ambarsaria

seeker3k ji it is pretty amazing that you are directing Sikhs to mannerisms while you are lying on the face of it as I note,



> Adherent: *Agnostic
> 
> *
> "There is no where in the Sri  Guru Granth Sahib Ji that we must *cover the head or take shoes off*.  Thos who wish to do that let them those who don’t want to do it_ *let them  keep it on or head not cover*._"​
> _*Unfortunately you have not understood nor you believe in the basic definition of a Sikh,
> *
> _Quote:
> *is`K dI qwrI&*​      jo iesqrI jW purS iek Akwl purK, ds gurU swihbwn (sRI gurU nwnk dyv  jI qoN lY ky sRI gurU goibMd isMG swihb qk), sRI gurU gRMQ swihb Aqy ds  gurU swihbwn dI bwxI qy is`iKAw Aqy dsmyS jI dy AMimRq au`qy inScw r`Kdw  hY Aqy iksy hor Drm nUM nhIN mMNndw, auh is`K hY[
> 
> *Examplification of a Sikh*​ The  woman or man who believes in one creator, ten Gurus (Sri Guru Nanak Dev  ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji), Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the  Gurbani of ten Gurus and their teachings and has belief in Baptization  of the pure of Dashmesh ji and does not believe in another religion, is a  Sikh.​


Believing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is part of being a Sikh but not the only part.


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/*sikh-sikhi-sikhism*/

Sat Sri Akal.​


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## Ishna

Removing shoes in Darbar Sahib is a very important tradition -- it keeps the ground clean so we can sit on it!

It can be argued that the Sikh Guru's endorsed head covering by wearing head coverings themselves.  I believe Findingmyway ji's post summarises the reasons behind head covering quite nicely -- go back and read it again, it's post #23 on page 3.

The very minimum is that people should cover their head in Darbar Sahib.  What you do outside of that is your own choice.  Darbar Sahib is so beautful when everyone has their heads covered.  It gives the whole place a real sense of sacredness -- it adds to atmosphere.  Making sure your head is covered before you go in -- you're already thinking about your relationship to God before you set foot inside.

And the "it's not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so why should we do it?" argument is one I've made a lot in the past but now I've realised the folly in this argument.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches high-level concepts and CORE TRUTHs which the Sikh takes on board and uses to make decisions on how to think, how to act, how to take responsibility and sift through the crap of life and identify the good stuff.  It gives us parameters to apply to all situations that we encounter so we can conduct ourselves righteously no matter what the circumstances.  You've already understood that part by learning we shouldn't give in to ritualism.

If you want a scripture which sets out exactly what you need to do, when you need to do it, with no questions asked  (in theory but rarely in practice), then try the Quran.  Go and learn about Islam and see how a religion so tightly bound by time- and situation- specific rules governs the faith group.

Sikhi and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is much broader than that.

I get your point about ritualism, I have pondered that problem myself with relation to head covering.  In my own life I go bare-headed.  I cover my head for Gurdwara and Nitnem prayers because it makes me feel humble and helps me get "in the mood" for reflecting my prayers back to God.  I pray informally at other times without my head covered, I try to remember God as much as I can.  If I thought I was doing something wrong and needed to cover my head (like I used to) then I think that would be ritualism.  Or doing something when you don't understand why you're doing it.  Or doing it to receive some particular divine blessing.  To me that's ritualism.

Doing something with an understanding of why you're doing it is perfectly rational, to my mind.


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## lionsingh

:singhsippingcoffee:

Valid question . Why do Sikhs cover their head ??? Why is the Turban so important ? Does it mean if you wear a turban you are a better Sikh than those that dont ? Now some Sikhs can be :angryyoungsingh:but others mundahug

When guru Gobind was alive, the Turban was ONLY for Islamic Over-Lords and Hindu nobelity. To wear a Turban was a death sentence in itself. The Rulers could only wear a Turban. Guru Gobind ELAVATED ALL to that status of Princes and Rulers ...every ONE...all that believed !!! Sikhs couldnt hide as they were visible..and rocked and challenged the tyrany in Punjab..ALL WERE KINGS all ....we know the price they paid for this.

A Sikh is NOT JUST a Turban. The Turban is sacred/history for a Sikh.


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## findingmyway

*Admin note: Please debate issues not personalities. Any further personal attacks will be deleted immediately.*


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## Ambarsaria

Some comments if these add to dialog.
 


> *Adherent(s):* *Agnostic (seeker3k); lionsingh (Hedonism)
> 
> *
> "There is no where in the Sri  Guru Granth Sahib Ji that we must *cover the head or take shoes off*.  Thos who wish to do that let them those who don’t want to do it_ *let them  keep it on or head not cover*._"​
> _*Unfortunately you have not understood nor you believe in the basic definition of a Sikh,
> *
> _Quote:
> *is`K dI qwrI&*​       jo iesqrI jW purS iek Akwl purK, ds gurU swihbwn (sRI gurU nwnk dyv   jI qoN lY ky sRI gurU goibMd isMG swihb qk), sRI gurU gRMQ swihb Aqy  ds  gurU swihbwn dI bwxI qy is`iKAw Aqy dsmyS jI dy AMimRq au`qy inScw  r`Kdw  hY Aqy iksy hor Drm nUM nhIN mMNndw, auh is`K hY[
> 
> *Examplification of a Sikh*​ The   woman or man who believes in one creator, ten Gurus (Sri Guru Nanak  Dev  ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji), Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the   Gurbani of ten Gurus and their teachings and has belief in Baptization   of the pure of Dashmesh ji and does not believe in another religion, is a   Sikh.​    Believing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is part of being a Sikh but not the only part.


Tomorrow same arguments espoused by seeker3k ji and like will say,



Where does Gurbani say that one should take Aspirin" for Headache as I prefer to drink instead.
Gurbani is for developing understanding, seeking wisdom and be in consonance with one creator
Hopefully this allows for proper development of brain to put to worldly use in balanced ways than create crazy logic "Show me where it is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji!"
 
 
Read Sikh Rehat Maryada if you have issues as well to clarify.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## seeker3k

I asked to show any slok in SGGS that say we must cover head or remove shoes.

After 10th guru died their was kayos. Soon after there were many hukam nawas written. May of them were rejected  but some still are being accepted.
Believe what u may but build your believe on the truth. Don’t get mixed up in that I am impling to SGGS. Keep to the topic.

Do you have any proof that any guru  wrote any slok that we must cover head or remove shoes?


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## seeker3k

This is nothing more then brahminic retual nothing more. The turban maybe guru's, but does it have to do with the question.

*Content deleted. What is the connection between wearing a turban and worship of idols? None explained so far. The first point is fair enough.  spnadmin*


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## spnadmin

I have removed some comments that were taking the discussion in circles, and were more like a quarrel than a debate. 

imho it is relevant to bring up rehitnamas from the time following Guru Gobind Singh, which are now basically defunct, but whose tenets in some cases persisted down to the present and may even be part of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The debate needs to focus on the question of head covering in the context of rehits, culture, history, and whether these are reflected in SGGS or not. Otherwise, all that is left is a quarrel.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

Dear Agnostic Seeker3k,



> This is nothing more then brahminic retual nothing more. The turban maybe guru's, but does it have to do with the question.



First of all, you are poking questions only to confuse people and maybe stop from stuff they have been practicing. If you wish to not have a turban and proclaim yourself a Sikh, go ahead. Let me tell you, things in Guru's Sikhi are deep and meaningful such that anyone trying to look from outside or surface, cannot even get iota of it. There are hundreds of thousands of Guru's Sikhs who wear turbans (including bibiyaan who are rediscovering it) and they never question it. For they know the reasons. THEY PRACTICE AND THEY KNOW THE REASON. So making you understand would be like telling you 64 attacks with Sri Sahib while you may even not have held a Kirpan in your hand. And yes, those 64 attacks are not described in Guru Granth Sahib. Yet they are preserved and are as much part of our Sikh education as 5 Kakkaar.

When you brought up the stuff about removing shoes, I searched and found this. I would have done your Nindaa and sinned, but this makes me giggle 

ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid.

ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation.

ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon.

ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment.

Anyway, our Ten Masters had shown the highest respect for Guru Granth Sahib. They took shoes off in Guru Granth Sahib's presence and they wore a Turban as symbol of Guru Granth Sahib's greatness beyond words and Waheguru's Creation. And of course, it is not written in Guru Granth Sahib, how to respect Guru Granth Sahib. That is something started and followed and maintained by Ten Gurus and Their Sikhs. And if someone talks about bringing down that standard of respect, he is in big trouble 

Should you still choose to reply, you are welcome


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## spnadmin

Kanwaljit Singh ji

The shabad you posted is a saloka on Ang 473. The translation is by Sant Singh Khalsa, MD.

I would appreciate it if you would offer to this discussion a paragraph or two in which you explain what you believe Guru Nanak means. Otherwise it seems, standing alone by itself, that Guru Nanak is in the habit of calling people names. What issue is Guru Nanak seeking to stress? What is he trying to say? What lesson should we learn from the salok, and the surrounding portions of the shabad? Thank you.


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## spnadmin

BTW, forum members. What do you think?

Look at an alternative translation by Bhai Manmoha Singh. 
*
Notice how Bhai Manmohan Singh has never used the word "insipid." Also he does not repeat one attribute, "insipid," throughout the saloka, the way Sant Singh Khalsa has done. I*nstead he uses adverbs/adjectives such as: dryly, dry, evil, sour-tongued, harsh.  

Why so different? Perhaps the shabad needs closer study. Does the word "insipid" capture the meaning completely? 



ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
सलोकु मः १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Slok 1st Guru.

ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
नानक फिकै बोलिऐ तनु मनु फिका होइ ॥
Nānak fikai boli▫ai ṯan man fikā ho▫e.
Nanak, by speaking dryly, the soul and body become dry (evil).

ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
फिको फिका सदीऐ फिके फिकी सोइ ॥
Fiko fikā saḏī▫ai fike fikī so▫e.
He is called the most evil of the evil and the most evil is his reputation.

ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
फिका दरगह सटीऐ मुहि थुका फिके पाइ ॥
Fikā ḏargėh satī▫ai muhi thukā fike pā▫e.
The sour-tongued persons is discarded in God's court and the evil one's face is spat upon.

ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
फिका मूरखु आखीऐ पाणा लहै सजाइ ॥१॥
Fikā mūrakẖ ākẖī▫ai pāṇā lahai sajā▫e. ||1||
The harsh man is called a fool and he receives shoe-beating as punishment.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

I think ਫਿਕਾ means something which is missing the Mithaas of Waheguru and His Name.


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## Harwinder

when we eneter our own house we dont bring shoes in why? Well i dont so i dont dirty my carpet or the floor; the shoes are dirty. A house is a place where you grow up and learn; its where life happens. Same as gurudawara its where rests the teachings of the great gurus the life lesson that we must fallow. It is also considerd our  home where the 11th Guru is. Its a matter of respect and commen sense in a way weather it says that in the shri guru grant saib or not.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

In Canada, there is almost a custom to take off shoes before entering a house. And a Kitchen is truly off limits. But when some Sikhs enter the Kitchen of Guru (ie Langar hall), they would like to come in with shoes. Why this discrimination against your own Guru? This is virtually like signing a Bedava.


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## Harwinder

I agree with you on this i always wondered why it was ok to wear shoes in the lungar hall. I mean come on that is where we eat.


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