# Which Is More Important Simran Or Sewa?



## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

Which one is more important from these two in the life of sikh ?

Simran.
To apply GGS into daily life through Sewa
My own opinion, and it is only an opinion, and opinions change with time, is that Simran is for the self, Sewa is for Creation


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

Harry Haller veer ji thanks for your post.  I will perhaps like to rephrase it in the following order,



Understanding (for Sikhs Gurmat Vichhar)
Actions towards others (including Sewa)
Actions towards self
Other practices to relax and find physical peace for mind and body
Simran
Alloo Paratha
TV
Physical Exercise
Etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 8, 2011)

Seva is the only Simran. Seva of reading,understanding,accepting and putting Gurbani into practice to make this world a better place is the true Simran.

Without the above, the Simran is nothing but a parroting of some mumbo jumbo which may make one a great parrot with an ugly plummage, like a quick fix for a drug junkie whose effect is very transitory. 

If feeling good for a little while is the only objective, then one can repeat "Lady Gaga" for half an hour daily and feel great for a little while. One has met the end objective by repeating some words whose effect will not last long but it may hang the mental banner within of,"Mission Accomplished" for the sake of Me-ism.

But if doing good through Seva is the means of feeling good, then it is the true Simran in Sikhi which not only lasts longer but eventually becomes our second nature. Hence, second nature of doing Seva makes feeling good for good.

This is the only Simran in Sikhi.

Tejwant Singh

PS: On a side note, my wife's name is Simran, so if I repeat her name twice to beg for her attention, then I am in big trouble and the sofa gives me back cramps.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

> Which one is more important from these two in the life of sikh ?
> 
> Simran.
> To apply GGS into daily life through Sewa
> My own opinion, and it is only an opinion, and opinions change with time, is that Simran is for the self, Sewa is for Creation<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Veer Ji your question was which one is more important and then you told us what your opinion of their purpose is,either you are nuttier than a fruit cake or you are the Mad Musketeer!


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

spji, 

My sanity has been questioned many a time, but I am a bit lost as to what you are saying, I have asked a question, and given my opinion to the question, my answer is Sewa, as I think Simran is for one self, could you clarify ?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

Veer Ji not to worry I think I read the question wrong in anycase we are both nuts so what does it matter who is nuttier?

Visa vee you applying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in daily life you should then do some simran too ,because it actually does tell you to do it. 
The question is what is Simran exactly is it contemplating the truth ,reciting the truth ,meditating on truth or living the truth?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

spji, 

Having spent the last hour reading about Simran from just about every source I can find, my own opinion is that it is not meditating, it is not holding your nose, with a cucumber in each ear as you breathe in and out slowly and recite Satnam, it is not trying to get high whilst repeating the same word over and over again, these to me seem the very Hindu ritualistic practices that Guru Nanakji was trying to get away from, 

Simran is purer and easier than that, it is putting into practice your understanding of Gurbani in a very real and physical way, whilst seeing Creator in Creation, and with no concept of 'payback', but to do it because your heart tells you it is the right thing to do, not for god, or for society, but for the pure universal and eternal truth

what do you think brother?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 8, 2011)

Veer ji I guess to me Simran is a state of mind ,I feel Gods name does have power though so reciting it is not without worth,it's just that you have to eat aswell that's why we are told to do kirat ,you and me are a good pair I don't do seva ,you don't do simran if we joined forces we would be something.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 8, 2011)

dare I say it?

A moment spent in meditation for the self, is a moment lost to Sewa


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

MY Musketeer Veer jis are very funny indeed.  Actually I think we should never be in the house just eat and run out and do what musketeers do!

Sat Sri Akal.swordfight:interestedmunda:


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 9, 2011)

> dare I say it?
> 
> A moment spent in meditation for the self, is a moment lost to Sewa


 
Veer Ji who will do the Seva that is required_ for your Self? Simran is Seva of the Self._


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## Harry Haller (Nov 9, 2011)

Spji, 

I will leave that to the people around me, any other action would be selfish and egoistical

:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 9, 2011)

> I will leave that to the people around me, any other action would be selfish and egoistical


 
Self with a capital S is not ego ,it is your deepest self, when you truly do selfless seva, ironically it is that Self that performs it.If you do it because it makes you feel good then that is your egotistical self.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 9, 2011)

look i came for the argument, abuse is next door

If we are talking about the self that contains essence of Creator, then understanding and meeting the needs of those around me, Creation, will result in that essence being fed, and that essence being realised, Why would I want to meditate to achieve the same results?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 9, 2011)

> Why would I want to meditate to achieve the same results?


 
I think Simran is understanding your Self, the Mind Self performs all action,so you can't really differentiate them on action and inaction,as when you engage is Seva it is still your Mind Self that causes you to act. Simran might seem like inaction but it in effect it is action of the highest order.

Sorry Times Up!


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## Harry Haller (Nov 9, 2011)

The argument here is as follows

is it possible through only applying the principles of the SGGS to our everyday life, can we achieve the same state of enlightenment as through meditation, 

I believe yes, so you need to respond to this argument without using the word simran as it is ambiguous in this context

Are you saying that meditation and contemplation is what makes a sikh? a combination of the two? can enlightenment be had by just one or the other? Does Sangat ecompass all the different facets and personalities of the individual so that the extremes of  Banda Bahadur and Bhai  Kanhaiya meet in the middle to give us Khalsa?

In any case, I thought this was the five minute argument


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 9, 2011)

> is it possible through only applying the principles of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to our everyday life, can we achieve the same state of enlightenment as through meditation


 
Veer ji Like I said you can't apply Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji fully without doing the Simran as it is prescribed to be done ,so Sikh has to be enlightened within otherwise what difference is their between him and someone who is of no faith but has a charitable disposition.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 9, 2011)

at this rate we will be elite members in a few hours

The difference between one who has no faith and one who has faith, is that the one who has faith knows his actions are in line with the universal truth, enabling him to do sewa that is productive not just in the short term, but long term, Study of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is vital, I am not saying that, but meditation is the key issue here

One of a charitable disposition may do sewa, but it may be the wrong sewa, or have worse consequences, without guidance from Guru

Also, how does meditation enlighten you anymore than Gurmut Veechar, which, to me is the key to really understanding the essence of Gurbani, 

I think first, you need to quantify exactly what simran is to you, otherwise this is a pointless argument that will go round in circles

this is not a debate or an argument, this is just contradiction


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 9, 2011)

Veer ji Simran to me is a state of mind in which _faith contemplates_,Gurmat Vichar to me is _contemplating faith_ .Gurmat just means accepting the Guru's Intellect and imbibing his Word,but Vichar is personal thoughts about what the Word means,I think Simran helps create a pure intellect ,if you did Vichar without a pure intellect how can be sure the Vichar produced is correct.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 9, 2011)

hmm a state of mind, sounds very yogi like to me....


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 9, 2011)

I am no one to interrupt the flow of the thread. I have read most of the posts with interest and application of mind. It is clear from the reading of the posts that meaning of 'sewa' and 'simran' are the function of our own understanding of the things stated in Bani. There are many shades of the meanings of the two terms and no rigid prescription is available with rocket like precision to arrive at the meaning. 
There is a stress of 'sewa' i.e. at many places in Bani and generally understood to be remembering him.[ Farid ji, Namdev ji etc.,] 
Sewa is also stated to be selfless service.[Bhagat Puran singh ji].
Looked from purely macroscopic view remembering the Lord is Simran as well as sewa. Isolatedly, there cannot be 'sewa' without remembering him and his creation.[Simran] Without any further hair splitting, I would invite attentions of my reverend Brothers to Slok Maha IX..introductory parts that speaks for itself.....
 ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD.  BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:  
SHALOK,  NINTH MEHL:  
If you do not sing the Praises of the Lord, your life is rendered useless. Says Guru Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord; immerse your mind in Him, like the fish in the water.  || 1 ||   Why are you engrossed in sin and corruption? You are not detached, even for a moment! Says Guru Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord, and you shall not be caught in the noose of death.  || 2 ||   Your youth has passed away like this, and old age has overtaken your body. Says Guru Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord; your life is fleeting away!  || 3 ||   You have become old, and you do not understand that death is overtaking you. Says Guru Nanak, you are insane! Why do you not remember and meditate on God?  || 4 ||   Your wealth, spouse, and all the possessions which you claim as your own — none of these shall go along with you in the end. O Guru Nanak, know this as true.  || 5 ||   He is the Saving Grace of sinners, the Destroyer of fear, the Master of the masterless. Says Guru Nanak, realize and know Him, who is always with you.  || 6 ||   He has given you your body and wealth, but you are not in love with Him. Says Guru Nanak, you are insane! Why do you now shake and tremble so helplessly?  || 7 ||   He has given you your body, wealth, property, peace and beautiful mansions. Says Guru Nanak, listen, mind: why don’t you remember the Lord in meditation?  || 8 ||   The Lord is the Giver of all peace and comfort. There is no other at all. 
Says Guru Nanak, listen, mind: meditating in remembrance on Him, salvation is attained.  || 9 ||   Remembering Him in meditation, salvation is attained; vibrate and meditate on Him, O my friend. Says Guru Nanak, listen, mind: your life is passing away!  || 10 ||   .......on and on.....so says the Bani and all of us walk like solitary reapers with sickle in left hand....with an effort to meet Him...........

It is only an opinion of a learner and no accuracy is guaranteed.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 9, 2011)

Fundamental in all such discussion is to remember that we are always a single entity in thought and action.  At the same time many thoughts and actions can occur.  Your mind could be singing internally or you verbalize (e.g. Satnam Waheguru) as you are doing sewa in the langar.  
You could be driving to work (doing sewa to self versus walking) and listening to a shabad and humming along.

So I find some of the divisions are there to understand but the Sikh practical life requires us to act as one being always in touch with many facets espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 9, 2011)

> remembering the Lord is Simran as well as sewa


 
Veera I have sworn an oath to contradict everyone on Spn atleast once,but I like this interpretation so I will have to wait, thank you for the help against the Mad Musketeer .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 9, 2011)

The "Simran" and "sewa" that is practiced widely in the Sikh World today is NOT as per Gurmatt or Gurbani at all.......This type are actually CONDEMNED in Gurbani as Dikhawa .....ritual...useless behaviour...and FRUITLESS !!


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 9, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The "Simran" and "sewa" that is practiced widely in the Sikh World today is NOT as per Gurmatt or Gurbani at all.......This type are actually CONDEMNED in Gurbani as Dikhawa .....ritual...useless behaviour...and FRUITLESS !!




Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said, as usual. No one could have put it better.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 9, 2011)

Depiction of Bhai Kanahiyah ji doing sewa to all.







Depiction of Guru Arjun Dev ji doing simran while being tortured.





Each is important and in its own place and each has its applications to suit and be effective.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Chinu (Nov 10, 2011)

One question for all of here...

Suppose... Your husband is a fan of any bollywood actress *or* Your wife is fan of bollywood actor. Days and Nights keeps on praising his/her beauty, smartness, and other appealing things etc.., and keep on singing hyms for him/her -- anytime you notice.

But your spouse is perfect in his/her family duties, Do all kind of sewa for you, Gives you medicine -- whenever you need, Gives you food -- whenever you need, or do anything -- anytime you need, but doesn't stop singing hyms, or stop praising his/her favourite actor/actress.

Well my question is: *Do you like this kind of behaviour by your spouse ?*

My answer is: NO


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2011)

I have concluded that if Sewa are the wheels of the car, Simran is the steering wheel, thanks to all, especially brother spji who inspired me to go to sleep last night with Amrit Bani on the radio


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2011)

Chinu said:


> One question for all of here...
> 
> Suppose... Your husband is a fan of any bollywood actress *or* Your wife is fan of bollywood actor. Days and Nights keeps on praising his/her beauty, smartness, and other appealing things etc.., and keep on singing hyms for him/her -- anytime you notice.
> 
> ...



Sorry Chinuji, the analogy here is quite incorrect

the argument is Sewa versus Simran, what you are talking about is Sewa whilst carrying out mental infidelity, I cannot see how this relates to the argument, would you care to explain, thank you


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## Chinu (Nov 10, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Sorry Chinuji, the analogy here is quite incorrect
> 
> the argument is Sewa versus Simran, what you are talking about is Sewa whilst carrying out mental infidelity, I cannot see how this relates to the argument, would you care to explain, thank you


Harry ji, I know my question seems to be off topic,
Even than.. I request you to answer this, so that i could carry on the discussion, or Really if you are intrested to know what's going in my mind. 

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2011)

Chinu said:


> One question for all of here...
> 
> Suppose... Your husband is a fan of any bollywood actress *or* Your wife is fan of bollywood actor. Days and Nights keeps on praising his/her beauty, smartness, and other appealing things etc.., and keep on singing hyms for him/her -- anytime you notice.
> 
> ...



This is a tricky question, if answered honestly, neither of us are 'fans' of anyone really, I hardly watch TV, my wife does, but I have never ever heard her mention finding another man attractive in anyway shape or form. 

Also we do very little for each other, We do lots for other people, but not that much for each other as we are quite independent, the concept of having someone do anything and be at my beck and call is quite scary, either they would want me to do the same for them, which can create a strange relationship filled with resentment and tab keeping, in my view anyway. 

I am mentioning the background because in a marriage/union, it is not as simple as saying 'do you like this behaviour', it is not for me to like her behaviour, any more is it for her to like my behaviour, we love each other, and accept each other as honest people, so provided we are honest, what is there not to like. 

The nearest I can get to this from my point of view, is if my wife has had a hard day, I will walk the dogs, feed the ferrets, give them water, check on stepson, and maybe cook a meal so that when she gets in, she can eat and then go to sleep, sometimes, if an opinion on this forum has made an impression, I will talk about the poster, and the opinion, and how enlightened I found them, I might talk for an hour, praising and lauding the poster, and wife's reaction, regardless of the sex of the poster, is always to show a keen interest and be happy that I am sharing something with her, 

If she discussed someone at work, say a male, I would show the same interest, as I respect and trust her, if it were say a movie star, we are on new ground, because in 7 years I have never heard my wife say anything remotely sexual about another man, she has praised many, at work, or for charitable works, or for contributions to society, but never looks, but then by the same token, my wife has shown complete indifference to my own look which changes constantly, sometimes hairy, always messy, sometimes smart, even when I wore a bear suit for 3 months, she never spoke to me or treated me any different. 

If it were my wife behaving like this, no it would not bother me, our bond travels deeper than someone she admires and talks about

I have been honest with my reply, I hope it helps


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## Chinu (Nov 10, 2011)

harry haller said:


> This is a tricky question, if answered honestly, neither of us are 'fans' of anyone really, I hardly watch TV, my wife does, but I have never ever heard her mention finding another man attractive in anyway shape or form.
> 
> Also we do very little for each other, We do lots for other people, but not that much for each other as we are quite independent, the concept of having someone do anything and be at my beck and call is quite scary, either they would want me to do the same for them, which can create a strange relationship filled with resentment and tab keeping, in my view anyway.
> 
> ...


*OK... 0*


> If it were my wife behaving like this, no it would not bother me, our bond travels deeper than someone she admires and talks about


 
So.. if your wife is behaving like this and the reason you don't bother so much, that because your bond travels deeper, and your bond travels deeper, that because you both love each other, and accept each other as honest people, Even doing very little for each other, still you understand each other very well and love each other.

Well.. the over all reason for this deep bond, trust, honesty is true love, or truely you remember each other everytime -- weather you are doing any work, or going anywhere, Right ? am i Right ?

Please give me the answer so that i could carry the discussion. 

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2011)

She is in my heart always, a lot of my devotion to Creator is done through my love for her, so yes, you are correct


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## Chinu (Nov 10, 2011)

harry haller said:


> She is in my heart always, a lot of my devotion to Creator is done through my love for her, so yes, you are correct


 
So.. you love your wife because she loves you and remember you everytime... anywhere... everywhere, weather she may work for you or not, do any kind of sewa for you or not.

Thus.. the real thing, which you feel is syptom of true love is that she may remember you everytime...anywhere... everyhere.

Harry... What do you think that the creator who has created so big and never ending universe, want our "Sewa" ?, The real thing "He" want is that one should remember "Him" everytime... anywhere... everywhere...  and in short i call this as "Simran", and this similar to what you aspect from your wife to do for you.

But...Yes! that thing is something else... that one is doing "Sewa" in love for creator. That type of "Sewa" is something else..., that type of "Sewa" is another form of love.

Anyhow... Guru Nanak the starter of "Sikh-Panth", We we also call as "Sewa-Panth" has started three types of Sewa's

Tan -- Physically
Man -- With Mind (Simran)
Dhan -- Money etc..
Three of these sewa's should walk parllelly -- for one to become a compleate Gur-Sikh, if we are missing anyone from these three, we are in big doubt.

We are bounded with these three things Body, Mind, and Money etc.. in this world, these three things becomes the reason of our soul to come again and again (Death & Births), in this world. Our soul can never get compleate libration from this World or Bhavsagar until we surrender ourself to creator with these three (Body, Mind and Money)

If the person is just doing sewa with Money and Mind, That person is saving his Body... means that person is lazy in doing physical sewa, such person can never get libration, because such person will ever remain bounded with body and will come again in this world

Similarly if one is doing sewa with Mind and Body, that person is saving Money... Such person can also never get libration from this world because he/she will come back again in this world to enjoy the collected money.

And if one who is just doing sewa with Body and Money, that person is saving his relations -- truely which are false, That person is saving his/her Relations in this world, So if he/she is not doing "Sewa of Mind" means "Simran", such person will also come back in this world due to false attachments.

So... the compleate surrender to creator is necessary for compleate libration, and to do parllely all these three sewa's  is only possible when we fall in true love creator by doing "Simran".

"Satshriakal"


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2011)

Chinuji, many thanks for taking the time to reply and make your point which is extremely valid, but I have made some points of my own




Chinu said:


> So.. you love your wife because she loves you and remember you everytime... anywhere... everywhere, weather she may work for you or not, do any kind of sewa for you or not. I never said this, I love my wife because of who she is, not because she loves me, these are two different points
> 
> Thus.. the real thing, which you feel is syptom of true love is that she may remember you everytime...anywhere... everyhere. Again, I never said this, true love is a mutual respect and kinship for each other, in fact, I have said the opposite, she may remember whoever is on her mind at the time, normally her patients, (she is a nurse), her son, or our animals, I rarely take up much of her thinking time as I make no or little demands on her, she gives to others and leans on me, in the same way that I give to others and lean on her, we give very little to each other, we are not needy in that way with each other, we exist to assist each other in our individual pursuits, like best friends
> 
> ...


kaurhug


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## Chinu (Nov 10, 2011)

Harry... really you don't believe in Afterlife and Compleate libration *? 0
*
* 
*


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2011)

Chinu said:


> Harry... really you don't believe in Afterlife and Compleate libration *? 0
> *
> *
> *



I am afraid not my friend, this is it


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## Chinu (Nov 10, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I am afraid not my friend, this is it


Once a grosser went to a women in the village to purchace a goat,
Said the women: I love this goat very much, so i cannot sell this goat even in 100 bucks winkingmunda

Well harry... i didn't asked, are you afraid or not.:grinningsingh:

Anyways... Nice to have chat with you.

_/\_ "Satshriakal" 
Your Brother Chinu


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## Gurdaas (Nov 10, 2011)

I have read the various comments on the topic of " What is more important, Seva or Simran " and my own contribution is as follows:-

Why do we need to distinguish the importance of one over the other. Surely the important thing is that they be done, either individually or together.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 10, 2011)

I think simran's more personal, and in a sense almost selfish... its for our own piece of mind.

Seva is more selfless in that its focus is on others. So out of the two, I think Seva is the heavyweight just b/c I think thats kinda the outcome of Simran anyways. Internal to external. you feeling healthy and good is only worth something if you extend it to others. idk, just my thoughts. 

Wow, harry ji, this topic really made me think.


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 10, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

One's self is always in action and there are three kind of "Actions" or "Seva"

Physical Action
Vocal or Speech as Action
Thought as Action

Thinking is also "action" which is seed of action, 
no physical or vocal action can appear if thought has not appeared.
One may be (Aware) or (Unaware)

One shall "remember" or "Simar" or do "Simran" of "Guru's Bani" 

"Simran" of Guru's Bani" is way of life to all one performs. 

One can maintain metaphysical balance and follow right path through 

"Seva" with "Simran"

Wheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 10, 2011)

I voted "I don't know, not  because I really don't know, but because there was no fourth alternative of "something else."

This is like asking which of my legs is more important.  I can hobble around on one leg, if necessary, but it's terribly inefficient and difficult.  Much better to be able to use both legs to walk.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to ask whether oxygen or hydrogen are more important to water.  Silly question!  Without both, water cannot exist.  In such a way, sewa and simran are both essential to being a Sikh.  

For a few years, I had focused heavily on sewa and really did quite a lot of good things, but not long ago I realised that I had not been growing as I should as a Sikh.  I had been doing some decidedly half-hearted attempts at simran, but had really neglected it.  My life was way out of balance.

I realised that I needed to stand back and get some balance in my life. I started out by closing my bloated Facebook account and cutting back on my other activities.  I still participate here, but much less than I did before.  

I am still doing sewa, but more quietly, unseen, I hope, and directing more of my energy toward simran.  We'll see how that works out.


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## msingh92 (Nov 10, 2011)

seva is simran, service to waheguru. You are serving waheguru, not people.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 11, 2011)

Gurdaas said:


> I have read the various comments on the topic of " What is more important, Seva or Simran " and my own contribution is as follows:-
> 
> Why do we need to distinguish the importance of one over the other. Surely the important thing is that they be done, either individually or together.



Gurdaasji, 

I agree with your sentiments, however if Sewa is a form of Simran, I cannot see how Simran can be a form of Sewa............


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 11, 2011)

Chinu said:
			
		

> The real thing "He" want is that one should remember "Him" everytime... anywhere... everywhere... and in short i call this as "Simran",


 
Veera _God has no wants at all ,so this would mean Simran must be purely for our own sake._


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## Chinu (Nov 11, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera _God has no wants at all ,so this would mean Simran must be purely for our own sake._


You are right brother, How can chinu know -- what "God" wants, yes anybody else can know what "God" want, but chinu can never.0
Its "God" not a toy -- so how can chinu know.

"Satshriakal"


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## ZaraONE (Nov 11, 2011)

Harry
From personal "experience" simran is the art of turning inward and "tuning into the frequency" of the ONE Universal Consciousness i.e. Guru Ji. To tune in through meditating on the word or bani through deep contemplation. Understanding and comprehending the gist of what Guru Ji is trying to relay through consciousness and speaks to our heart. Silence is key and reciting Gurbani with full attention to the words helps the student listen to the masters teachings. Simran (contemplation through meditation) is a gradual process, it does not happen overnight. 

At some point we get "activated" with an inner knowing ... we are then truly "inspired" to take action through courage.  The actions are flowing from a point of "I don't have all the details, but I know it will work out" ... and work out they do because Guru is standing right in front of the actions opening up the doors and laughing with Joy that the Sikh is working his hands, feet and moving in the direction of the Guru's Hukam.


When one understands the Hukam (Cosmic Divine Order) of the Lord’s command, he plays the game of chess with the Lord; throwing the dice, he conquers his own mind. Guru Granth Sahib - 793 

Simran (contemplation) of every action will balance the mind and sharpen the senses ... the 6th sense is activated and then like a brilliant compass it guides every action of the student. 

A simple suggestion if you do not mind, which has worked fantastically in my life ... journal ... write down the instructions of inspiration that come so fast and swift that if we let our ego in the way it will stop all creative actions from being realized. If actions are for the betterment of the whole Spirit all the right paths will open up much faster as I have personally experienced. This is true selfless service.  I can attest that my simran got me on the path to volunteer in Haiti last year with my sons and Guru showed me the path to get 6 free airline tickets. 
 
Make the love of the Lord your pen, and let your consciousness be the scribe. Then, seek the Guru's instructions, and record these deliberations. Guru Granth Sahib - 16 

A short story on how Guru "inspired" the creation of a kirtan CD and how he "showed his presence" in other cultures!
http://www.unitedstarminds.com/2011/11/10/kindred-hearts-unite-in-joyful-music-creation/

To happer and deeper level of contemplation ... for true Seva of humanity, Guru is waiting with Hukams in hand!

Forgiveness for any passion, but I Love Life and I Love Guru Ji.


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## khalsa1469 (Nov 11, 2011)

Like most important aspects of Being, this is not an either/or situation.  Perhaps, the question arises from lack of clarity about the nature of one's Being, and the meaning of Seva and Simran.

The fundamental fact is that there is only 1.

Being connected with that realization is _Simran_, which is also called remembrance (from _Smaran_).  I can only remember that which I knew and have since forgotten.

What have I forgotten?  That all (that I see as distinct) is actually 1.  I have forgotten that I, who I imagine is different from you and all the others, am living a distortion of reality.

In fact, you, me, and all else are 1.  _Simran_ is being connected with the enormity of that realization, and _Vismad_ is the effect of that realization upon my body, mind and consciousness.

_Seva_ is (a connected) Being.  Seva is commonly referred to as selfless service, which can fit the bill but may be helped via a nuanced understanding.

Seva and Simran are inseparable.

Then, what is the real problem?  It is the _self_ that is the problem.  That is, until I deal with the _Self_.

When I operate from the self, I am fractured, dualistic and focused upon the little me.  But when I operate out of the integrated, large, Universal me, then there are no barriers.  Being this is _Seva_.  Not Being this is trying, which is nothing more than holding oneself back.

_Trying_ is not _doing_, even Yoda taught us that.  "Do or do not, there is no trying", he instructed young Luke Skywalker.

But _doing_ is not the same as _Being_.  When I am _doing_ this or that, I imagine it will lead me to _Being_.  Perhaps, I have put the cart before the horse.  Do I imagine that I am serving (_doing Seva_ of) another (less fortunate being)?  If yes, then I am in _duality_ and not in _Simran_ of the fundamental fact, that there is only 1.

So, perhaps the question should be Who Am I Being?


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## Simranman1 (Nov 11, 2011)

Do the Simran, .......... Sewa will follow automatically...........guranteed!0:happysingh:


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## Original (Nov 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> dare I say it?
> 
> A moment spent in meditation for the self, is a moment lost to Sewa


 
Brother H

The word "simr.." means "remembrance" - yaad karna ! The authors of Gurbani make use of this word to illustrate their (personal) separation from the almighty and how union is possible through "jap" (repititon). So in a nutshell - simran is to remember and jap is to repeat the name of the beloved. 

Seva and Simran are two different entities - where seva is selfless service and simran is remembering god. The two are equally important from a "man" "tan" perspective.

Hope it helps !
Regards


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 12, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *harry haller*
> 
> 
> _dare I say it?
> ...



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said and I totally agree with you. Unfortunately we take the meanings of the Gurbani words  literally and stop there rather than delving deeper into it which is the whole purpose of Gurbani.

Allow me to think aloud on this.

1. Why would the Omnipresent Ik Ong Kaar want us to remember The Source? It defeats the purpose of omnipresence.

Only doing good-Seva- is the true Simran as mentioned earlier.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Simranman1 (Nov 12, 2011)

As is mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji continously, saas saas geras, naam. Every thing else will follow, go ask the saints oh siblings of destiny!​


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 12, 2011)

philanthropist said:


> *As is mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji continously, saas saas geras, naam. Every thing else will follow, go ask the saints oh siblings of destiny!*​




Philanthropist ji,

Guru Fateh.


Would you be kind enough to post  the whole shabad with the page number and the literal translation?

But the thing I would like to learn the most from you as a learner is for you to put the Shabad in your own words, in a simple manner so all of us can learn from it. This will be the wonderful learning interaction for all of us.

I thank you in advance for your this Seva.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Simranman1 (Nov 12, 2011)

*Saas = breath, giras = food, naam = wahaguru.*
Repeat his name, wahaguru, with every breath and morsel of food, that means we are doing simran with  every rhing we do, including SEWA !​


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 12, 2011)

philanthropist said:


> *As is mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji continously, saas saas geras, naam. Every thing else will follow, go ask the saints oh siblings of destiny!*​



Philanthropist ji,

Guru Fateh.

I requested the whole shabad and the page number from SGGS, our only Guru, with your personal thoughts on it. Can you please do this Seva for us?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Nov 13, 2011)

philanthropist said:


> *Saas = breath, giras = food, naam = wahaguru.*
> Repeat his name, wahaguru, with every breath and morsel of food, that means we are doing simran with  every rhing we do, including SEWA !​




It is a beautiful quote, Philanthropistji, and from a purely personal point of view, like a lot of quotes, it doesnt actually mean anything, although I accept that remembering Waheguru is hugely important, and I think this is why Tejwantji wants the full shabad, I think one can take these quotes too literally. 

From a literall point of view, it is saying while you are living, remember Waheguru, but how does one remember Waheguru to the point of something tangible  happening, my belief is that Sewa whilst looking to the Creator for guidance, inspiration and direction covers all bases. 

However, I would be also interested in the full shabad,


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## Original (Nov 13, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
Pyara Veer Ji

Guru Nanak placed so much emphasis on "truth = sat" , so much so, he named God "satnam". And, I totally agree with you when you say, "_Only doing good-Seva- is the true Simran as mentioned earlier_". Indeed it is, Guru Ji too said that 'higher than contemplative true being is true living'. The word "simran" however, is used in the context of remembering the "beloved". As you are aware, our gurus regarded themselves as the "patni" of the parmaser "pati", that is to say, wife husband respectively. So from that view point it is important to always "remember" - I am but a love of my beloved. And, I think in a much more contemplative mood Guru Arjan puts it beautifully at the start of Sukhmani Sahib, when he writes, "simr simr sukh pavo..."
Seva however, is the exertion of ones individual mite in the utility of creation to further evolve harmoniously.

Regards


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 13, 2011)

> like a lot of quotes, it doesnt actually mean anything


 
Veer Ji 
Imagine if the Guru was in front of you and spoke only one line, would you reply like that!One word means something ,so how can one line not mean anything,_the whole reason for a quote being a quote is that it stands up by itself_.

For example *'To be, or not to be, that is the question:*' You should be able understand that without the whole soliloquy.

This context thing is just a safety measure against misinterpretation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.The line is self explanatory and it is obvious he is not using it for ulterior motives,even if it is not word for word from a Shabad, he might be envoking the spirit /feeling of it.


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## Simranman1 (Nov 13, 2011)

This one line, _''Saas saas giras, naam''_,is to be taken literaly, amongst others, such as, _''Every breath without your name is wasted''_​ 
Hear Hear <!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) -->*Scarlet Pimpernel*<!-- google_ad_section_end --> Thanks v-much obliged.

There are other one liners hidden away in the SGGS, reading slowly, carefuly, and the more the SGGS readings are repeated, the more one liners are to be found. This reading, unfortunatley, no one else is able to do for you ! Good Luck, and Kindest Regards.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 13, 2011)

philanthropist said:


> This one line, _''Saas saas giras, naam''_,is to be taken literaly, amongst others, such as, _''Every breath without your name is wasted''_​



Philanthropist ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea why you are so reluctant to teach us with the whole Shabad with your views.

After all we are all Sikhs and it is our duty as Sikhs to learn from each other and I am ready to learn from you as is Harry ji.

So, I request you to help us out here at SPN with your Gurmat wisdom.

Hope to learn from you.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Simranman1 (Nov 13, 2011)

Please understand, nothing is being withheld from you and Harry, though I suspect no one has shown you and Harry how to tie the name, wahaguru, to ones breath, I dont know what to suggest there, except may be you could ask at the local Gaini at theGurdwara? 

 Best Regards.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 13, 2011)

Original said:


> Pyara Veer Ji
> 
> Guru Nanak placed so much emphasis on "truth = sat" , so much so, he named God "satnam". And, I totally agree with you when you say, "_Only doing good-Seva- is the true Simran as mentioned earlier_". Indeed it is, Guru Ji too said that 'higher than contemplative true being is true living'. The word "simran" however, is used in the context of remembering the "beloved". As you are aware, our gurus regarded themselves as the "patni" of the parmaser "pati", that is to say, wife husband respectively. So from that view point it is important to always "remember" - I am but a love of my beloved. And, I think in a much more contemplative mood Guru Arjan puts it beautifully at the start of Sukhmani Sahib, when he writes, "simr simr sukh pavo..."
> Seva however, is the exertion of ones individual mite in the utility of creation to further evolve harmoniously.
> ...



Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your views but I am a bit confused so I need your indulgence to understand what you have mentioned.

I am sure you know what omnipresence means and Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent. The proof is in the Wow! and Awe! factors that surround us.

So, is there a possibility that we are taking the meanings of some words quite literally rather than delving into the true meanings what our visionary Gurus are trying to convey through the beautiful poetry of Gurbani?

To Love someone does not mean nor does it require to repeat 24/7 to your lover-in this case the omnipresent and omniscient Ik Ong Kaar who knows each pore of our body- "I love you" but to show what love is through deeds.

You write:



> Guru Arjan puts it beautifully at the start of Sukhmani Sahib, when he writes, *"simr simr sukh pavo*..."


I have a question for you. What do you understand by the word " Simr" as mentioned above?

Is it just parroting and if that is so, then what good does it bring?

Or does it mean something totally different than we have been trained to think about it?

Please share your views so we all can learn from this wonderful interaction.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 13, 2011)

philanthropist said:


> Please understand, nothing is being withheld from you and Harry, though I suspect no one has shown you and Harry how to tie the name, wahaguru, to ones breath, I dont know what to suggest there, except may be you could ask at the local Gaini at theGurdwara?
> 
> Best Regards.



Philanthropist ji,

Guru Fateh.

This forum is meant for us to learn from each other. So I plead you to teach us through your Gurmat wisdom so Harry ji, myself and many more can benefit from your knowledge.

Can you also give me the page number from SGGS our only Guru where it states,"how to tie the name, wahaguru, to ones breath". These are your words.

So, please be kind enough to help us out.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Simranman1 (Nov 13, 2011)

I suspect you know far more than you are letting on ! 
Misconstruing is just not acceptable BYE !


*Admin Note: So, in your perspective, Misconstruing of Guru's Words is OK but not Yours!*


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## Harry Haller (Nov 13, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji
> Imagine if the Guru was in front of you and spoke only one line, would you reply like that!One word means something ,so how can one line not mean anything,_the whole reason for a quote being a quote is that it stands up by itself_.
> 
> For example *'To be, or not to be, that is the question:*' You should be able understand that without the whole soliloquy.
> ...



SPji, 

I disagree with you from the bottom of my heart brother, single lines can be completely misinterpretated. I cannot imagine Guruji quoting one line and then letting me take whatever interpretation I wanted from it, he is my Guru, my teacher, he would patiently explain to me, or guide me in the right direction as to the lesson and what he wanted me to learn from it, this is not a game, or a quiz, these are instructions on how to live, there is much at stake here, not just the prize of a large Ham. 

If he is invoking the spirit, then that is a very personal thing to invoke, we are all here different, and different people invoke different spirits, one only has to look at the many different factions of Sikhism, and they all believe they have the correct spirit. 

Your argument is also flawed regarding the quote 'to be or not to be', as it happens, I have no idea what this means, I never have , as I never studied Shakespear, I can take a guess, but having seen the speech in its entirety, the spirit of understanding is much easier having seen the whole, why would we want to torture ourselves by giving ourselves a few lines, or a few words, when there is no monopoly on how many lines and words we can use to further our information and understanding.

Amusingly, Yahoo answers lists the most popular answer as 

*It's really along the same lines as 'Do or die'- it really just means do  something, or don't do it.  At least, that's what I think it means...*

which is not the hugely definitive answer I would have hoped for to illustrate how easily one line can envoke the spirit of entire quote

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
 Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
 The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
 Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
 And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
 No more; and by a sleep to say we end
 The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
 That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
 Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
 To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
 For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
 When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
 Must give us pause: there's the respect
 That makes calamity of so long life;
 For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
 The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
 The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
 The insolence of office and the spurns
 That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
 When he himself might his quietus make
 With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
 To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
 But that the dread of something after death,
 The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
 No traveller returns, puzzles the will
 And makes us rather bear those ills we have
 Than fly to others that we know not of?
 Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
 And thus the native hue of resolution
 Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
 And enterprises of great pith and moment
 With this regard their currents turn awry,
 And lose the name of action.--Soft you now!
 The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
 Be all my sins remember'd.

A truly wonderful piece of writing, why deprive yourself, or others of the TRUE meaning in all its simple glory?


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 13, 2011)

Harry ji,

Guru fateh.

Well explained. No one could have done it better than you.

One liners can be misleading, especially in Gurbani or in any other context as you have posted the whole poem and it changes the whole meaning and intent of the poet. That is why it is requested to all posters to post the whole Shabad  with their own understanding so all can savour the nectar from the message of the Gurus. It is our Me-ism that forbids us from doing what is right and what in reality is a helping hand for all to learn from and that is all we Sikhs urge and look for. Stubbornness does nothing but makes us keep on digging a deeper hole when urged to stop.

People who quote one liners from Gurbani do injustice to our visionary Gurus and to their wonderful vision which they set forth for us to make our lives better so that we become capable of offering our helping hand to others in need.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 13, 2011)

Humbly submitted and all errors are mine.  My interpretation outside of quotes.

(http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=289&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&k=1)
 ___________________________________________________________


> ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਤ ਤੇਰੀ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ॥
> गुन गावत तेरी उतरसि मैलु ॥
> Gun gāvaṯ ṯerī uṯras mail.
> Chanting His Glories, your filth shall be washed off.
> ...


_Considering creator’s virtues your dirt in mind is removed._



> ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਫੈਲੁ ॥
> बिनसि जाइ हउमै बिखु फैलु ॥
> Binas jā▫e ha▫umai bikẖ fail.
> The all-consuming poison of ego will be gone.
> ...


_One gets a worry free and comfortable living._


> ਸਾਸਿ ਗ੍ਰਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥
> सासि ग्रासि हरि नामु समालि ॥
> Sās garās har nām samāl.
> With every breath and every morsel of food, cherish the Lord's Name.
> ...


_Remember the creator with every breath and bite._


> ਛਾਡਿ ਸਿਆਨਪ ਸਗਲੀ ਮਨਾ ॥
> छाडि सिआनप सगली मना ॥
> Cẖẖād si▫ānap saglī manā.
> Renounce all clever tricks, O mind.
> ...


_My mind forget all cleverness._


> ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਧਨਾ ॥
> साधसंगि पावहि सचु धना ॥
> Sāḏẖsang pāvahi sacẖ ḏẖanā.
> In the Company of the Holy, you shall obtain the true wealth.
> ...


_Everlasting wealth is gained through company of the wise._


> ਹਰਿ ਪੂੰਜੀ ਸੰਚਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੁ ॥
> हरि पूंजी संचि करहु बिउहारु ॥
> Har pūnjī sancẖ karahu bi▫uhār.
> So gather the Lord's Name as your capital, and trade in it.
> ...


_Let the wealth you amass and deal in be in the creator's understanding._


> ਈਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ॥
> ईहा सुखु दरगह जैकारु ॥
> Īhā sukẖ ḏargėh jaikār.
> In this world you shall be at peace, and in the Court of the Lord, you shall be acclaimed.
> ...


_This is how one will find comfort in living and closeness with the creator._


> ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਦੇਖੁ ॥
> सरब निरंतरि एको देखु ॥
> Sarab niranṯar eko ḏekẖ.
> See the One permeating all;
> ...


_See in all living the same one._



> ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖੁ ॥੭॥
> कहु नानक जा कै मसतकि लेखु ॥७॥
> Kaho Nānak jā kai masṯak lekẖ. ||7||
> says Guru Nanak, your destiny is pre-ordained. ||7||
> ...


_Such is a person of good fortune._




> *ESSENCE:*  In this shabad Guru ji give importance to understanding the virtues of the creator and focusing on it all the time.  This allows to tackle ego and cleverness while supporting being in company of the wise.  This becomes a basis of peaceful, ego free and true life where you see all living as one.
> 
> This defines being fortunate.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 13, 2011)

> I cannot imagine Guruji quoting one line and then letting me take whatever interpretation I wanted from it


 
Veer Ji As far as I know Guru Ji did not quote anyone ,the person quoted Guru Ji,Divine Poetry is to be felt and absorbed ,not studied, 
What misinterpretation were you referring to ? A non existent ,lets take a common sense approach to the application of TOS!

He was feeling, let him feel it ,I would take it that feeling over all the studying in the world!


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## Harry Haller (Nov 13, 2011)

Ambersariaji, 

I hope you do not mind my take on the shabad...

When your mind is cluttered by the five thieves, meditate on the smallest molecule to the entirety of the universe, realise how petty and pointless your thoughts are, direct your energies to be in line with what is happening round you

In doing so, be the molecule, be the universe, do not stoop to the lowest of the levels, aspire to be pure like the molecule, be in peace like the molecule, no need to worry about money, status, pride, just be you, doing what Creator asks of you, to be in consonance

Inhale and Ingest only the pure, to be in consonance, the fuel needed should be without intoxication, or rich, or bourne from wrong doing, simple living is simple eating, the joys of being at one with Creation far outweigh a greasy Aloo Prontha, also connection to the supreme should be at all times

The thieves will battle and fight for control of you, they will use subtle tricks to get their way, use this connection, and your body devoid of all impurity to see through them

Be influenced by those on the same path, validate each other, learn from each other, lean on one another when times get hard

It is not the money in your bank account that states how rich you are, it is the deeds, thoughts and words that you trade in, act your life through Bani, spread the message through acts and words that inspire others, but never forget that you are simply the body through which these trades take place, you own nothing, otherwise prepare for the bankrupt life of a baba/sant

You will be out of time, and out of place with society, but you will be acting in accordance with a time and place that you cannot understand or percieve, but one day, you will, and you will get closer every day.

Treat every encounter with everything as you would treat yourself, offer help and assistance to those in need, do not have an agenda, be pure in your dealings

Live in this way and be the person you were meant to be

This is my first ever dissection of a shabad, I have probably attributed much more than I should have, but I let it flow over me, and it remains very personal, based on my experiences and understanding and my own thieves, I respectfully point out that it is in no way a universal translation, only my own, for my own purposes,


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## Harry Haller (Nov 13, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji As far as I know Guru Ji did not quote anyone ,the person quoted Guru Ji,the line from Hamlet means should I live or Should I die.
> 
> What misinterpretation were you referring to ? A non existent ,lets take a common sense approach to TOS!He was in the spirit and was flowing, let him flow!



Spji

you said ( I know Amanji, I promise I will get the hang of this quote thing)

_Imagine if the Guru was in front of you and spoke only one line_

So I was responding to your post regarding this, as for misinterpretation, you can see that the same shabad has been interpretated quite differently by two diffrerent people, so it is nothing to do with TOS, just clarity of allowing the individual to see in their own way what the entire message was, otherwise we could have all sorts of arguments being validated by single quotes that are out of context


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 14, 2011)

Veer Ji I understand the importance of context ,I just don't impose it on anyone to provide it, if they remember one word of Gurbani and it seems relevant why not post it,we should not be doing detailed studies of posts,we are discoursing the topic, this portion of a Shabad reminds me of Internet Religious Forums, not the original context of the Shabad !,<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਕਥੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
गिआनु गिआनु कथै सभु कोई ॥ 
Gi▫ān gi▫ān kathai sabẖ ko▫ī. 
Everyone talks about spiritual wisdom and spiritual knowledge. 




</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਕਰੇ ਦੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
कथि कथि बादु करे दुखु होई ॥ 
Kath kath bāḏ kare ḏukẖ ho▫ī. 
Talking, talking, they argue, and suffer. 




</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਥਿ ਕਹਣੈ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
कथि कहणै ते रहै न कोई ॥ 
Kath kahṇai ṯe rahai na ko▫ī. 
No one can stop talking and discussing it. 




</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬਿਨੁ ਰਸ ਰਾਤੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ 
बिनु रस राते मुकति न होई ॥२॥ 
Bin ras rāṯe mukaṯ na ho▫ī. ||2|| 
Without being imbued with the subtle essence, there is no liberation. ||2|| 




</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
गिआनु धिआनु सभु गुर ते होई ॥ 
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān sabẖ gur ṯe ho▫ī. 
Spiritual wisdom and meditation all come from the Guru. 




</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਾਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਾਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਈ ॥ 
साची रहत साचा मनि सोई ॥ 
Sācẖī rahaṯ sācẖā man so▫ī. 
Through the lifestyle of Truth, the True Lord comes to dwell in the mind.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 14, 2011)

SAT SRI AKAAL,

Simran is reciting "wa he gu ru"

or 

remembrance of "GURU's BANI"

Naam Jap is reciting "wa he gu ru"

Topic is "Seva" and "Simran" 

or "Naam Jap"

Is "Naam Jap" or "Simran" is synonyms ???  

Than it comes
What/How/When/Who/Why "Naam Jap"

Actions are performed in three ways

Physical Action (Seva)
Speech as Action (Seva)
Thought as Action (Seva)

Is Seva Different in Real World and

"Simran" not "Remembrance" and is  "Abstract" 

Let's realise "Seva" and "Simran" 

Is it like that or different??? 

for common to understand



Wahguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 15, 2011)

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Gurbani is like a prism and each of us sees the same prism from a different angle depending on our current affairs of lives, our understanding of The Source and many other intangible unknowables which also play their parts. 

This is the beauty of the poetry. Its interpretation changes with the waves ridden by us on this ocean called life and also with time. Hence, Gurbani is like an ever fresh and crispy head of lettuce which does not get yellow at the ends but rather greener with age. So, what Ambarsaria ji explained about this Shabad is his take. It may or may not change with time and the same goes with yours or mine which I have been motivated to pitch in with, thanks to Ambarsaria ji and yourself.

This Shabad is part of Sukhmani which in a Biblical slant is known as *The Psalm of Peace* which for me is a misnomer because it is much more than a mere Psalm which literally means a sacred song or hymn. Normally in the old Christian times, all that was sacred was hidden and never explained to the devotees/followers. They had  no choice but to accept it blindly. Hence the dogmatic religions are called blind faiths.

 The beauty of Sikhi is that there is nothing neither hidden nor sacred. All is out in open for all to savour. How can a flower hide its scent? One may questions!

So, Sukhmani for me is *‘The serenity of Mann-Mind’* which is a lot higher and constant than mere peace. It has no magic formula. There is no *“Peace drink”* that one can gulp in for a quick fix but its beauty is that our 5<sup>th</sup> Guru teaches us how to weather the storms of the temporal so we can focus on the Spiritual.

This particular Shabad is very appropriate for the thread you have started. 

This is the 7<sup>th</sup> Shabad of the 8 Shabad Ashtpadi, # 19 out of total 24. Ashtpadi literally means 8 Shabads (Padhs) put together. All 24 Ashtpadis have 24 themes which are given in *the Saloks* in the beginning of each, and the 8 Shabad expand that idea further.

Gurbani is written in a scientific manner for the lack of better word. Our Gurus knew very well what they wanted to convey to us and how. In order to make things easier for us, they gave us steps to follow. 

Hence, it is a must for us to focus on *the Salok *in the beginning of each Ashtspadi because that is the main theme; the central idea for us to understand, so that the Ashtpadi could be understood in the right manner. 

This is the reason, especially in this one where one posting the one liners to prove one’s point is stepping on the spiritual minefields. 

Before we delve into the main theme in this particular *Salok,* I want to apologise to Philanthropist ji because no personal insult was intended nor hurled, but I wanted to learn the Shabad from his own perspective because the fact of the matter is we all do multiple Sukhmani Paaths, have get togethers weekly for that, but sadly, we do not make any effort to understand the message of our Gurus.  These Sukhmani reciting get- togethers have become more like pot luck parties where people share their recipes of the food they have brought and the fashion trends. 

Unfortunately, the message of the Guru from Sukhmani is lost in the aroma of  the Garam Masala, which was the main objective of the congregation to start with.

Let’s start with the Salok at the beginning of this 19<sup>th</sup> Ashtpadi which is the principle theme for the 8 Shabads that follow it.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=288&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&k=1



> ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
> Salok.
> 
> ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਚਾਲੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਜਨ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥
> ...



[/FONT]
My take: Once we leave this world, we will not be carrying any suitcases with us that we book before hopping on this particular plane nor will we have any carry on baggage. We will only have *our inner ledger, our inner accounting book daily audited by us*. In other words, we shall only have the goodness we have accumulated through *Seva*- deeds with the help of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. If we have not played our true role as humans during our lives, then our stay has been simply a waste of time, a worthless endeavour.[/FONT]


> ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਮਾਵਨਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
> हरि हरि नामु कमावना नानक इहु धनु सारु ॥१॥
> Har har nām kamāvanā Nānak ih ḏẖan sār. ||1||
> Practice the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. O Guru Nanak, this is the most excellent wealth. ||1||



[/FONT]
There is a very important word in above verse which is[/FONT],[/FONT]ਕਮਾਵਨਾ[/FONT]-[/FONT] kamāvanā that literally means *earn *with one’s blood, sweat and tears. It requires, honesty and hard work.[/FONT]
 
[/FONT]So what is the wealth we have earned, the question arises?[/FONT]

 The answer lies in the first 3 words: [/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT]-[/FONT] Har har nām.[/FONT]
 Here, Guru ji has said *Har* twice because saying it once was not suffice to emphasise the point he is trying to make which is the central point- the theme of this whole Ashtpadi, which is, *Simran* through *Seva* is *the only wealth that our ledger and accounting book shows.*Nothing more.[/FONT]

[/FONT]Hence, the theme indicates our duty of being good by doing good in this life of ours, the only one we know and how we to make the best out of it. In other words, the theme shows us the “how to" in this Ashtpadi but we will only delve in number 7 which Ambarsaria ji and yourself explained it from both your perspective.[/FONT]
 
[/FONT]The following is my interpretation:
[/FONT]
(http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...=1&t=1&p=1&k=1)[/FONT]
__________________________________________________ _________[/FONT]
  Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="458" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="179">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਗੁਨ[/FONT] ਗਾਵਤ[/FONT] ਤੇਰੀ[/FONT] ਉਤਰਸਿ[/FONT] ਮੈਲੁ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
गुन गावत तेरी उतरसि मैलु   ॥[/FONT] 
  Gun gāvaṯ ṯerī uṯras mail.[/FONT]   
Chanting His   Glories, your filth shall be washed off.[/FONT] 
ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਉਪਮਾ ਗਾਇਨ ਕਰਨ   ਦੁਆਰਾ ਤੇਰੀ (ਮਨ ਦੀ) ਮਲੀਨਤਾ ਧੋਤੀ ਜਾਏਗੀ[/FONT],[/FONT] 

ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉਂਦਿਆਂ   ਤੇਰੀ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ) ਮੈਲ ਉਤਰ ਜਾਏਗੀ[/FONT],[/FONT]​   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _When we are working-doing Seva- happily, we always start singing our favourite tunes that act like the fuel to our good work. We bloom like lotuses out of the muck only when we are plugged in  with The Source._

Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="452" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="412">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਬਿਨਸਿ[/FONT] ਜਾਇ[/FONT] ਹਉਮੈ[/FONT] ਬਿਖੁ[/FONT] ਫੈਲੁ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
बिनसि जाइ हउमै बिखु फैलु   ॥[/FONT] 
  Binas jā▫e ha▫umai bikẖ fail.[/FONT]   
The all-consuming   poison of ego will be gone.[/FONT] 
ਅਤੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਫੈਲੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੰਕਾਰ   ਦੀ ਜ਼ਹਿਰ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਏਗੀ।[/FONT] 
ਬਿਖੁ = ਜ਼ਹਰ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਵਿਹੁ। ਫੈਲੁ = ਖਿਲਾਰਾ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਫੈਲਾਉ।[/FONT]
ਤੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੂਪੀ ਵਿਹੁ ਦਾ   ਖਿਲਾਰਾ ਭੀ ਮਿਟ ਜਾਏਗਾ।[/FONT] 
_The poison of ego is also removed._
ਹੋਹਿ[/FONT] ਅਚਿੰਤੁ[/FONT] ਬਸੈ[/FONT] ਸੁਖ[/FONT] ਨਾਲਿ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
होहि अचिंतु बसै सुख नालि   ॥[/FONT] 
  Hohi acẖinṯ basai sukẖ nāl.[/FONT]   
You shall become   carefree, and you shall dwell in peace.[/FONT] 
ਤੂੰ ਨਿਸਚਿੰਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ   ਅਤੇ ਆਰਾਮ ਅੰਦਰ ਵੱਸੇਗਾ[/FONT],[/FONT] 
ਅਚਿੰਤੁ = ਬੇ-ਫ਼ਿਕਰ।[/FONT]
ਤੂੰ ਬੇਫ਼ਿਕਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਹਿਂਗਾ   ਤੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਸੁਖ ਨਾਲ ਬਿਤੀਤ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ-[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _What happens then?_
_Me-ism dissipates and one finds solace and peace within._


Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="456" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="258">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਸਾਸਿ[/FONT] ਗ੍ਰਾਸਿ[/FONT] ਹਰਿ[/FONT] ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT] ਸਮਾਲਿ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
सासि ग्रासि हरि नामु समालि   ॥[/FONT] 
  Sās garās har nām samāl.[/FONT]   
With every breath   and every morsel of food, cherish the Lord's Name.[/FONT] 
ਹਰ ਸੁਆਸ ਤੇ ਬੁਰਕੀ ਨਾਲ   ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਆਰਾਧਨ ਕਰਨ ਦੁਆਰਾ।[/FONT] 
ਸਾਸਿ = ਸਾਹ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ।   ਗ੍ਰਾਸਿ = ਗ੍ਰਾਹੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ।[/FONT]
ਦਮ-ਬ-ਦਮ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ   ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕਰ।[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _Keep on humming the happy tunes with every breath and with each bite that keep you plugged in with The Source_


Quote: 
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="462" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="186">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਛਾਡਿ[/FONT] ਸਿਆਨਪ[/FONT] ਸਗਲੀ[/FONT] ਮਨਾ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
छाडि सिआनप सगली मना ॥[/FONT]
Cẖẖād si▫ānap   saglī manā.[/FONT]
Renounce all   clever tricks, O mind.[/FONT]
ਹੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਸਾਰੀ   ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਆਗ ਦੇ।[/FONT]
ਹੇ ਮਨ! ਸਾਰੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ   ਛੱਡ ਦੇਹ[/FONT] ,[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _Eradicate this disease called Me-ism from your mind._


Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="459" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="217">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ[/FONT]   ਪਾਵਹਿ[/FONT] ਸਚੁ[/FONT] ਧਨਾ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
साधसंगि पावहि सचु धना ॥[/FONT]
Sāḏẖsang pāvahi   sacẖ ḏẖanā.[/FONT]
In the Company of   the Holy, you shall obtain the true wealth.[/FONT]
ਸਤਿ ਸੰਗਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਤੂੰ ਸੱਚੀ   ਦੌਲਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰ ਲਵੇਗਾ।[/FONT]
ਸਚੁ ਧਨਾ = ਸੱਚਾ ਧਨ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਸਦਾ ਨਿਭਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਧਨ।[/FONT]
ਸਦਾ ਨਾਲ ਨਿਭਣ   ਵਾਲਾ ਧਨ ਸਤਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ।[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _And, how shall one eradicate Me-ism?_
_With company of those who are humming the same tunes as you are and are also plugged in to The Source. This is the only true wealth you can accumulate. _


Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="463" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="224">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਹਰਿ[/FONT] ਪੂੰਜੀ[/FONT] ਸੰਚਿ[/FONT] ਕਰਹੁ[/FONT] ਬਿਉਹਾਰੁ[/FONT]   [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
हरि पूंजी संचि करहु बिउहारु   ॥[/FONT]
Har pūnjī sancẖ   karahu bi▫uhār.[/FONT]
So gather the   Lord's Name as your capital, and trade in it.[/FONT]
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ   ਰਾਸ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਕਰ ਅਤੇ ਉਸੇ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਵਣਜ ਵਾਪਾਰ ਕਰ।[/FONT]
ਸੰਚਿ = ਇਕੱਠੀ ਕਰ।   ਬਿਉਹਾਰੁ = ਵਪਾਰ।[/FONT]
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ   ਦੀ ਰਾਸ ਇਕੱਠੀ ਕਰ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਇਹੀ ਵਿਹਾਰ ਕਰ।[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _Start bartering this wealth you are accumulating. This is the only true business._
_
_
_Harry ji, now the question arises that although this poetry is quite moving, how does this reflect in our daily living?_
_
_
_The answer lies in the repeat business or promotion in one’s job. So, if we use the tools of Gurbani our wealth from all aspects becomes multifold._


Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="473" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="245">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਈਹਾ[/FONT] ਸੁਖੁ[/FONT] ਦਰਗਹ[/FONT] ਜੈਕਾਰੁ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT] 
ईहा सुखु दरगह जैकारु ॥[/FONT] 
  Īhā sukẖ ḏargėh jaikār.[/FONT]   
In this world you   shall be at peace, and in the Court of the Lord, you shall be acclaimed.[/FONT] 
ਤੂੰ ਇਥੇ ਆਰਾਮ ਪਾਵੇਗਾ   ਅਤੇ ਸਾਬਾਸ਼ ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਅੰਦਰ।[/FONT] 
ਈਹਾ = ਇਸ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ।   ਜੈਕਾਰੁ = ਸਦਾ ਦੀ ਜਿੱਤ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਜੀ-ਆਇਆਂ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਆਦਰ।[/FONT]
ਇਸ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿਚ ਸੁਖ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਤੇ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਆਦਰ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ।[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _This is the only way to live blissfully 24-7._


Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="455" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="257">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਸਰਬ[/FONT] ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ[/FONT]   ਏਕੋ[/FONT] ਦੇਖੁ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
सरब निरंतरि एको देखु ॥[/FONT]
Sarab niranṯar   eko ḏekẖ.[/FONT]
See the One   permeating all;[/FONT]
ਉਹ ਇਕ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਰਿਆਂ   ਅੰਦਰ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹੈ[/FONT],[/FONT]
ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ = ਸਭ   ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ।[/FONT]

ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ   ਅੰਦਰ ਇਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਵੇਖ[/FONT],[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _Look for the omnipresence of The Source in everything and everyone you are surrounded by._
  Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="462" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="288">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   ਕਹੁ[/FONT] ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT] ਜਾ[/FONT] ਕੈ[/FONT] ਮਸਤਕਿ[/FONT] ਲੇਖੁ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT]੭॥[/FONT] 
कहु नानक जा कै मसतकि लेखु   ॥७॥[/FONT] 
  Kaho Nānak jā kai masṯak lekẖ.   ||7||[/FONT] 
says Guru Nanak,   your destiny is pre-ordained. ||7||[/FONT] 
ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਐਸੇ   ਭਾਗ ਲਿਖੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ[/FONT], [/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਫੁਰਮਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ।[/FONT] 
ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ = ਜਿਸ   ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਤੇ ॥੭॥[/FONT]

([/FONT]ਪਰ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਹ ਕੰਮ ਓਹੀ   ਮਨੁੱਖ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਤੇ ਭਾਗ ਹਨ ॥੭॥[/FONT] 
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  _Guru Nanak says, this is the only way to become blissful and blessed._


  Quote:
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" width="459" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="136">  <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">   <td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">   *So, in nutshell, Simran   through Seva is the only way to find happiness within and around.*
*
*
*This bliss is the only   baggage we will carry after death- the theme of the Salok in the beginning of   this Ashtpadi.*
   </td>  </tr> </tbody></table>  
Ambarsaria ji,I have one idea to share. You are very good at this stuff. So, I would request you to start Sukhmani from the beginning and all interested Sangat can share their takes and discuss about it. In this way we can all learn from each other.[/FONT]

 If anyone has any other ideas, please pitch in.[/FONT]

 Thanks & regards[/FONT]

 Tejwant Singh
[/FONT]


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 15, 2011)

Tejwant Singh[SIZE=3 said:
			
		

> Ambarsaria ji,I have one idea to share. You are very good at this stuff. So, I would request you to start Sukhmani from the beginning and all interested Sangat can share their takes and discuss about it. In this way we can all learn from each other.[/FONT][/SIZE]
> 
> If anyone has any other ideas, please pitch in.[/FONT]
> 
> ...


Tejwant Singh ji I will be happy to do so.

What is the best approach and amount of material per post that one should cover.  If you let me know the pages for the first post I can start.

I assume we will do this in "Gurbani Vichhar" section.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 15, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Tejwant Singh ji I will be happy to do so.
> 
> What is the best approach and amount of material per post that one should cover.  If you let me know the pages for the first post I can start.
> 
> ...



Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I want to thank you for this wonderful Seva.

Yes, we will do this in " Gurbani Vichhar" Section.

We can start with one Pauri/Shabad of Sukhmani at a time while repeating the  Salok with its meaning in each to keep our focus on the theme. After we are done with the whole Sukhmani, then we can start with another part of SGGS like Anand etc. etc.

What do you think?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 15, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Singh ji I will do one Astpadi at a time and see how it goes.  Once an Astapdi is complete I will post it in Shabad parts with your suggestion as above.  The following kind of flow per Sikhwiki though I am not commenting on what they say in terms of essence right now,



> Astpadi     Message of the Bani in this Astpadi
> 1     sums up the benefits of contemplation and meditation.
> 2     tells us that "practising holiness" reduces man's propensity to sin.
> 3     the Guru states that any study of holy texts, the performance of austerities. etc cannot compare with reading or listening to the Sacred Word.
> ...


I would love to finish Complete Sukhmani Sahib (my initial part) before Christmas but I may be underestimating the effort.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 15, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

These are personal views on reflections from "Guru's Bani", 
one may interact/reject/correct or accept the thought

Its wonderful, to contemplate, inner and outer perspectives, of the words of "Guru's Bani"

There is a very important word in above verse which is[/FONT],[/FONT]ਕਮਾਵਨਾ[/FONT]-[/FONT] kamāvanā that literally means *earn *with one’s blood, sweat and tears. It requires, honesty and hard work.[/FONT]

"Kamai" or "Kamavna" is not only physical earning.

It internal accumulation of biochemicals also which causes behaviour, 

which can not be stolen by thieves.

"Kamai" Let's see for eg

"Kamai" of drunkard, 

One starts drinking, small, than large, than daily

If one understand the counter action inside, to maintain Ph of the body,
there is counter action, biochemical produced inside body,

And daily initially small, than large, than daily.
 Mind leaves making of counter action, Initially action was volunteer
But now it transcends to spine level.
It is involunteer.
This is also "Kamaai"

No one day person want's to leave.

Not so easy, 
as the "kamaai" counter action "addiction" gone to spine level
will not leave so easily, 

If one understand the counteraction, 
it is not in one's control,
without understanding of the "kamaai"
one performs wrong action, as phsyical/vocal/thought 

Than one can leave friends, relation, nation, generation (body).

But not so easy "one's behaviour" or "kamaai" 

Every one has addiction, 

let one be addicted to "Guru's Bani"

It is purifying, non harmful to self and others"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes Ravneet Ji

Kamavana has two impact. Guru Sahib through the epilogue at the end of Japjisahib has conveyed us the message that every human being is equipped with AN INBUILT SCALE (a technique - a system followed by the laws of nature, according to which within a fraction of second, judgement on our action on good or bad is rendered by itself and accordingly OUR QUALITIY LIFE STARTS IMPROVING/DETERTERIOTING(which gurbani calls as 'avan javan' pal pal marna)or enters into eternal bliss (nanak bhagata sada veegas). Scientist have also discovered imbalance of various chemicals in our body erode/improve our bodysystem, due to our behaviour such as anger, humility, contentment etc. Gurbani tells us, 'eh kar kareh su eh kar paey ik ghadi muhat na laghai' - whatever vices one even think or practice, he obtains the fruits or punishment without a moment's delay. SGGS. 1098.6.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 16, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Respected Tejwant ji,

It is wonderful idea. I would also like to participate and shall wait the beginning of the 'Veechar' in some different thread. 
Warm Regards


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 16, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Though it shall be new thread

Behaviour and imbalance of chemical are vicious, and are interlinked,
one improves other.

What comes first forms other and so on.

Fear cause adernaline  or adernaline cause fear.

ahaar, vyahvaar or vichaar  forms vicious cycle of behavior and biochemical chain.

Root cause understanding corrects the vicious cycle.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 16, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,


Its good to initiate 

Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 16, 2011)

Ravneet ji,

Guru Fateh. 

I think you totally misunderstood what Kamaee with Blood, sweat and tears means. It is not just physical as you claimed signifies in my post. 

My quote:
[/FONT]


> "There is a very important word in above verse which is ਕਮਾਵਨਾ[FONT=&quot;] kamāvanā that literally means *earn *with *one’s blood, sweat and tears.* *It requires, honesty and hard work*.[/FONT]"






> Your response:
> 
> "Kamai" or "Kamavna" is not only physical earning.


 

First of all I never mentioned physical earning anywhere in my post. I have no idea where you got that from.

Secondly,I do not know what you mean by physical earning. It could also mean lifting weights and become stronger physically. But that is no the point.

Lastly, to earn with blood, sweat and tears does mean Spiritual, Mental and of course to live in the balance of Miri Piri, one has to earn a living.

And to accomplish all the above, one needs to be honest and a hard worker not just physically, but also mentally and spiritually.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 16, 2011)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Respected Tejwant ji,
> 
> It is wonderful idea. I would also like to participate and shall wait the beginning of the 'Veechar' in some different thread.
> Warm Regards



Taranjeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Yes, it is. It has been bubbling in my mind for quite sometime where we can involve the Sangat to evolve together. This is the way we will all be able to grow organically from the within and the treasures we gather due to this will be used in our everyday lives, so that we can make a real difference in this speck of sand called the Earth. This is the duty of every Sikh.

And, there is no better person than Ambarsaria ji who has gladly accepted this seva who can put this to fruition.

I only urge all the Sadh Sangat to pitch in with their thoughts no matter how much they disagree with others'. It is a Sikh's duty to learn, unlearn and relearn daily in order to become better humans and only through this way we can do that. 

Kudos go to Ambarsaria ji.

Will be eagerly waiting for your thought sharing and of others in this.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 16, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,


May "Guru's Bani" blesses  all of us with this idea of "Kamaai"

It comes with blessings from wise.

Thanks for post.

Wheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## ksandhu83 (Nov 16, 2011)

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਦਿਸੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ (ang 509)
we need to follow guru granth sahib ji's teaching in our daily life. i think sewa and simran can't not be seperated. we need to do sewa while doing simran in our mind.


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## JimRinX (Nov 16, 2011)

All jios
I think you'll all need to do a few pure, and perhaps - I hate to say it - a few not so pure things, and then meditate upon the subject in a dewy glade.......then and only then will you, maybe, if your not really all that lucky (because you're still living here, man), know what Simran really means; then, maybe, you'll be One - if only for the briefest of times - and see the Universe; it's Membrane, it's Bulk (See: String Theory); correctly, for the first time.
I did much sewa as a child, as we we're quite fortunate to be able to help financially and with the application of a lot of pro-civil rights related Power in our Military Communities, and I grew up cooking in a bingo parlor that made money ro feed the people in the Old Folks Home.
Sewa is wonderful, as it keeps you humble, and prepares you for the day when you might be the recipient of someone else's sewa......as so often happens, if you have serious pain issues, like me.
Psst! I Love the Blue 'Turbans". I Protest Many Things Herbal........that's My Sewa.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 17, 2011)

Tejwantji

Just read your post, all our translations seem to have a lot in common, but they are all also extremely personal to us as individuals. This is one reason it is very difficult to get meaning out of anothers translation. 

Without a doubt the hardest thing to do is to live your life by what you are reading, but is also the ultimate thing to do, otherwise what is the point, you would be like a miser hoarding gold with no desire to ever share or spend it, just keep it locked away so no one can else can have what you have, but then I do know some people like this, they know 'everything' but share nothing, they are misers of knowledge. 

I look forward to Ambersariajis posts

When I was a young child watching those around me (not my parents) behave like sikhs, I remember thinking how much ritual and pointless things needed to be done to be a sikh, if someone was described as 'very religious' this normally meant they were dead against fun of any kind, looked very stern, but knew all the mythical rituals that enabled them to speak with some authority about God, when I read the posts here from so many enlightened people, it makes me realise what being 'very religious' actually means, to me, now, it means making sure people know you are religious, rather than being a good Sikh. A good Sikh is filled with Chardi Kala, is kind, helpful, passionate, and eager to learn and eager to serve, not for brownie points, or to please God, but because in doing so, it is the right thing to do, for oneself, and for Creation.


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## JimRinX (Nov 17, 2011)

Harry Haller ji
I think it's awful that, even though most of the persons, like Guru Nanak, who've truly communed with (fill in the blank with name of just about any Deity Entity you can think of, as It has for certain communed with at least one person in that community over the Aeons) God, brought back a description of a Truly Understanding, Compassionate, Kind, Loving, even Forgiving God, that these 'stern people' seem to see themselves as being, "In Charge of what's Holy".
No, God Loves Technology, like: More Modern Medicine vs. Less Faith Healing, and More Birth Control vs. Less Going Forth and Prospering.
I know the Sikhi see things my way, on this: We who care all Love what 'India' is trying to do.
God Loves Love, like: Less Blowing Things Up vs. More Mining The Moon and Asteroids for Raw Materials Without Casuing Any Harm To The Earths Environment; more Free Love (with Birth Control, and Respect for the Power of Love to Hurt Others) and LGBT Tolerance (they were "created" the way they are, they didn't simply _"decide_ to be gay") vs. Less Stoning to Death and/or "Honor Killing" for Reasons Supposedly related to the violation of Commandments Given By The Great All-Knowing, All-Understaning, All-Caring, All-Loving, and _All-Forgiving God._
_Wouldst but that we all liveth in such a realm!_


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 17, 2011)

Tejwant Singh
Will be eagerly waiting for your thought sharing and of others in this.
Thanks & regards
Tejwant Singh[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post.  I have started working on the project.  I have completed two Ashtpadian.  However I believe I need to do bit more before I start posting.  I am getting pretty much in Synch with Guru ji's thoughts but some words I am trying to find better interpretations or essence of.
> 
> From a positive point of view it is going little better/faster than I expected since there is considerable focus in the shabads to hammer certain points so that we all idiot(s) (at least I call myself such in comparison to the Guru jis) peacesign have no confusion on what they are driving at.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 22, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

We are no experts, But learners some may be seekers. You can post First ashpadi in parts as these are fairly lengthy. In the mean time,permitting time, you may keep on working on the next ashtpadi. If you post the entire Astpadi in a single post, I apprehend, the learners like me would find it very difficult to assimilate.
Kindly give it a thought. Also please begin a new thread for this purpose.

Thanks and Regards,


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 23, 2011)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> We are no experts, But learners some may be seekers. You can post First ashpadi in parts as these are fairly lengthy. In the mean time,permitting time, you may keep on working on the next ashtpadi. If you post the entire Astpadi in a single post, I apprehend, the learners like me would find it very difficult to assimilate.
> Kindly give it a thought. Also please begin a new thread for this purpose.
> ...


Taranjeet Singh ji as I write I have completed 11 ashtpadian in first draft form.  I am trying to do two a day and each one takes about couple of hours plus minus.

I do want to present in ways so it is easy to correct with spn sangat inputs, comments, criticisms and so forth.  I want to complete as many as possible and then start the post later next week.

At that time we can review the best mode of posting but I thank you for your interest and encouragement/ideas.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (Apr 12, 2012)

harry haller said:


> dare I say it?
> 
> A moment spent in meditation for the self, is a moment lost to Sewa


 
Satnaam harry Ji,

a famous singer called michael jackson  once said "if you want to make the world a better place...take a look at yourself and make a change"

so self evaluation is the key. If we have many arguments, stop looking at the other person...evaluate oneself first and think how we could have acted more humbly.

following on from this...
Lets say we're standing at a buss stop, and an attractive woman stands next to us...a thought comes into our minds, saying "wow, she is soo attractive, i wouldnt mind being with her".
Now, we may not attack her or force something on her *which is good*
*but, why is this thought coming into our minds?*

this woman may be standing next to us feeling safe, but would she stand next to us if she could hear our thoughts?....i think she would move away.

We all have the experience of having some crazy thoughts...and we feel ashamed that we had the thoughts, and we sometimes hold our heads and ask that the thoughts stop....can we not control our own thoughts? where are the thousands of thoughts coming from on a daily basis?

answer is our Subconscious mind which pours in thoughts ever second.
When we sit quietly and focus on doing Simran, we can start to pay very close attention to our thoughts...what they are, and start to seperate ourselves from the thoughts and make them powerless.

Eventually, those negative thoughts, fears, desires, start to subside and go away.

If my mind becomes purer, my Seva also becomes purer and more fruitful.

therefore, it cannot be selfish when someone is trying to clear there minds of negativity.


God bless all.


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## chazSingh (Apr 12, 2012)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Seva is the only Simran. Seva of reading,understanding,accepting and putting Gurbani into practice to make this world a better place is the true Simran.
> 
> Without the above, the Simran is nothing but a parroting of some mumbo jumbo which may make one a great parrot with an ugly plummage, like a quick fix for a drug junkie whose effect is very transitory.
> Satnaam Tejwant Singh, when i sit in a quiet room (daily), repeating the word Satnaam in my mind, focussing on the vibrations that flows through my mind, feeling my third eye (pineal gland) vibrate gently, and i see the parkash (divine light) of my soul, and i feel the energy flow through my body....but at the same time, my mind tries to stop me from focussing on my satnaam, with thoughts of women, money, family issues, anger towards someone.....but then i shake it off and continue focussing on waheguru ji, and my mind settles again and i smile whilst in meditation, maybe a tear due to the Bhairag (sadness) i sometimes feel at feeling seperated with Giod when i know he's sitting right there inside of me...
> ...


 

 God bless all


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## chazSingh (Apr 12, 2012)

Satnaam Sat Sangat Ji,

Please take the time to read this very short E-Book: 
*ANHAD SHABAD - The Celestial sound within*
http://www.esnips.com/displayimage.php?pid=3987071

It beautifully describes the essence of Naam, Anhad Shabad that flows through creation, what Shabad Guru is, and how we can connect to the source - our creator Lord.

It has many gurbani quotes backing up the descriptions.

It is said that the length of our life is determined by a set number of breaths, not years and months...but breaths...

Lets all not waste any more breaths and concentrate with full faith on doing our Simran  

My Guru is always with me, near at hand. Through simran and simran by
remembering Him, I keep Him with me ever.
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 394

and then maybe the follwing will take place

sc{ sbiw mnu m]ihAa pRiB Aap[ le[ imlaie . 
‐ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 35 
The Shabad of the True one fascinates the mind; 
And then God Himself arranges the meeting. 
‐ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 35

God Bless all<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 18, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Which one is more important from these two in the life of sikh ?
> 
> Simran.
> To apply GGS into daily life through Sewa
> My own opinion, and it is only an opinion, and opinions change with time, is that Simran is for the self, Sewa is for Creation


 

Satnaam

Ok, heres's what it is. Gurbani tells us to wake up in the ambrosial hours. This is The amrit vela- 1am- around 6am. Amrit vela Naam simran from 1am to 3:30 am is literally a million times magnified compared to daytime/evening simran at the beginning of bhagti.

It may feel like discipline awaking at this time at the beginning- but it is actually Love.

During these hours, attune yourself to naam- give up your sense of self- Silence your Mind(to live by the true heart- which is His heart)- Shut those theives up! 

Relax, listen to anhad naad(symbolic of the Silence/ the frequency of Truth) let go, let the smaadhi take you over. Attunement to the frequency of Naam is Attunement to Truth as Naam=Truth/silence/Nothing. The Silence/Frequency of Nothing is beyond maya.

*Naam simran is not just a name that you repeat with your tongue or in your body. Naam is All Pervading- it is Truth. The trees whisper it, the beings of the universe live in Karam of it. *

*It is the frequency of a balanced gyan that applies across a universal spectrum that lives to discover while remaining detached from the nasha of the disocvery- be it a high(worldly pleasure) or low(pain). *

It is Embracing the entire creation- to remain in the balance in which the universe and Beyond always remains in- instead of embracing and attaching ourselves to certain parts of it- i.e pleasure or pain through certain people, places etc. 

Living in maya is listening to worldly logic that makes us believe things are separate. Truth is the awareness that it's All the Whole/Truth. Pleasure(heaven)+ pain(hell)=Nothing/Balance.

Through samadhi/attunement to Truth, we begin to discover the reality of the creation around us. 

To practice the Truth that you discover in samadhi during the day- throughout your natural life is practicing Truth, going further than this, Gurbani asks us to do seva. Helping others is doing bhagti- but remember what Gurbani says about doing charitable acts without practicing Truth..

We speak Truth, serve Truth, Deliver Truth, Die Truth.

_Our purpose is to detach from the khel, then teach others out of it aswell. _

Our Gurus were the perfect examples of True sewadars- they spoke, served and delivered Truth to the masses, while remaining in death of it(death of self into Truth/Hukam/God).

Through disregarding the Self as Nothing, living at the feet of others(remaining lowest of the low and serving/delivering Truth) and in finding the death of self(in accepting God/Hukam/Truth as our keeper), we go further than just samadhi through naam simran.


Satnaam


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## Kaur 1968 (Jun 19, 2012)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!

I agree with Mai Harinder Kaur ji

many are agree that seva is for others and simran is for own sake. simran makes oneself happy and seve makes others and oneself happy. naam to bina kiti seva shows our pride. Guru Granth Sahib ji is not the rule book, one can read overnight and next day apply easily on them. we need to teach our mind first by doing simran. God did great kirpa on Harry veer ji so he doesn't need to do simran. But honestly i would say some like me are biginner and so really need it

i have been reading gurbani since i was a child, at first only 5 pauria Japuji Sahib, then whole Japuji Sahib and then start panj bania after i baptized in 1999. Now i am hungry for simron it teaches me to conect me with ownself 

bhul chuk Maaf

gurfateh
Gurfateh


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## Luckysingh (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaur 1968 said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!
> 
> I agree with Mai Harinder Kaur ji
> 
> ...


 
You say you are hungry and wanting to do simran now. This is because you really feel and know that you need it.
I understand, as I felt the same not too long ago.
I had actually never gave simran and meditation a single thought before, but for some reason a point came in my life where I was 'needing' this.

I'm not sure what sparked it or what was the cause, but it was almost like an awakening. Trust me, you will find what you are looking for.

It seems that sometimes the Lord requires us to make that little extra effort whilst he guides us there.
The Guru is giving you that yearning and wanting to take the simran path.

 You will find that it will come much easier this way and you will wonder why you never did this before.

We get too busy thinking that we know what we need to know. But, we never know it all and there is so much to learn that the Guru gives us this whole lifetime which still isn't enough for most of us as we waste too much time.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## ravneet_sb (Jun 20, 2012)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Simran is in Mind
Sewa is Physical


One should do "Sewa" all actions with "Simran" of "GURU's BANI".

Earth and Sky have no comparison, both are equally important.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Astroboy (Jun 20, 2012)

What is more important? Simran or Sewa? 

It is neither if it does not lead to understanding and wholly accepting His will. 

In Asa Di Waar, 

Sabhnee Challa Marriyaa, Karta Karey So Hoey.

Everyone makes an attempt, but what the creator Lord does, comes to pass.


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## chazSingh (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaur 1968 said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!
> 
> I agree with Mai Harinder Kaur ji
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Ji,

this is a great post.
Seva brings humilty within us, helps remove Ego, and allows the god sttributes to shine through us.The humilty lays the seeds for your journey through Simran...you will be in a better frequency and frame of mind to enjoy the journey back to God. 

But once you start the journey of Simran, you will start to study your 'consciosness' - consciousness is God...we are conscious beings...Simran will raise your consciosness to levels of awareness you cannot comprehend....but it is our birthright. this is the TRUE journey within to experience god WHILE WE ARE STILL ALIVE.

When we connect with our soul and experience divinity, we will feel connected to the whole universe and beyond, and then our Seva here on earth becomes 100% pure, and we can help motivate, guide and uplift other souls.

Keep your Simran and Seva going, by the sounds of it you're doing really well  My daily Simran consists of 30 minutes in the morning before work, 1 hour at the gurdwara on a weekday after work, and lying in bed before sleeping everynight (however long that may be before i fall asleep).
I did 2 hours once during amrit vela and it was completely something else...the energy felt was amazing, so the next step is to do regular amrit vela.

God bless you and the sangat.


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## Simranman1 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Sounds  Ecstatically Exelent to me !*​


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 20, 2012)

Astroboy said:


> What is more important? Simran or Sewa?
> 
> It is neither if it does not lead to understanding and wholly accepting His will.
> In Asa Di Waar,
> ...


Let us not get astray by incorrect interpretation of gurbani. Here sabhnee is all my body organs and karta is my mind and not creator. The basic fundamental of gurbani is God does not interfere. 

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## chazSingh (Jun 20, 2012)

japjisahib04 said:


> Let us not get astray by incorrect interpretation of gurbani. Here sabhnee is all my body organs and karta is my mind and not creator. The basic fundamental of gurbani is God does not interfere.
> 
> Best regards
> Mohinder Singh Sahni
> Kuwait


 
Satnaam Mohinder Ji,

Can you clarify your thoughts on 'God does not interfere' ?

in my understanding and experience, god is ONE, all is within god, and everything is GOD...so by the mere fact that you are saying god does not interfere, you are creating a seperation between god and his creation, when in actual fact this seperation is only created by Mind and Ego, and fact is that there is NO seperation at all.

Only upon pushing Ego to one side, does the illusion of seperateness dissapear and we realise that we have always been ONE with GOD.


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 20, 2012)

Yes the separation is there and will remain there until we shift our paradigm from manh ki matt to guru ki matt. When we relish guru ki matt all action automatically reflect oneness.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## arshi (Jun 20, 2012)

Mohinder ji

Gurfateh

<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*:**੧**॥**ਵਦੀ **ਸੁ**ਵ ਜਗਿ **ਨਾਨਕਾ **ਸਚਾ **ਵੇਖੈ **ਸੋਇ**॥ **ਸਭਨੀ **ਛਾਲਾ **ਮਾਰੀਆ **ਕਰਤਾ **ਕਰੇ **ਸੁ **ਹੋਇ**॥ **vadee so vajag naankaa sachaa vaykhai so-ay.**sabhnee chhaalaa maaree-aa kartaa karay so ho-ay.*

ਵਦੀ….means ordained, arranged etc and ਵਜਗਿ…means will happen, transpire. 

*Whatever the Lord (WaheGuru) has ordained will happen. O Nanak, the True Lord, himself, watches over us (sustains life). All beings (being ambitious) exert themselves to the fullest but the reward is in His Hands – the end result is as He desires.*

*ਅਗੈ **ਜਾਤਿ **ਨ **ਜੋਰੁ **ਹੈ **ਅਗੈ **ਜੀਉ **ਨਵੇ**॥ **ਜਿਨ **ਕੀ **ਲੇਖੈ **ਪਤਿ **ਪਵੈ **ਚੰਗੇ **ਸੇਈ **ਕੇਇ**॥**੩॥ **agai jaat na jor hai agai jee-o navay. jin kee laykhai pat pavai changay say-ee kay-ay. ||3||*


*In the Lord’s Court there is no distinction based on race, caste or worldly status. There is no injustice – True Justice prevails. Only the select few, on the basis of their good deeds, receive His Grace.*

The following _Pauri_ also supports this:


*ਪਉੜੀ॥ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਜਿਨਾ ਕਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਤਿਨੀ** ਤਾਤਿਨੀਖਸਮੁਧਿਆਇਆ**॥ **karam jinaa ka-o tudh paa-i-aa taa tinee khasam dhi-aa-i-aa.*

*Those who are blessed by You ,from the very beginning, have meditated upon You.*

*ਏਨਾ **ਜੰਤਾ **ਕੈ **ਵਸਿ **ਕਿਛੁ **ਨਾਹੀ **ਤੁਧੁ **ਵੇਕੀ **ਜਗਤੁ **ਉਪਾਇਆ**॥ **aynaa jantaa kai vas kichh naahee tudh vaykee jagat upaa-i-aa.*


ਵੇਕੀ….. complex; multi-faceted; multi-coloured.

*In this** colourful (eventful) world as established by You, the Jeevas (beings) have little control upon what they do.*

*ਇਕਨਾ **ਨੋ **ਤੂੰ **ਮੇਲਿ **ਲੈਹਿ **ਇਕਿ **ਆਪਹੁ **ਤੁਧੁ **ਖੁਆਇਆ**॥ **iknaa no too<SUP>n</SUP> mayl laihi ik aaphu tudh khu-aa-i-aa.*
ਖੁਆਇਆ… separated, divorced

*Some, by your Will, merge in You whilst the others remain separated. *

Mohinder ji, I know you are very thorough in your research when translating and interpreting Gurbani and you don’t take these issues lightly; so please forgive me if I have got this wrong.

Best wishes and regards.


Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2012)

Gurfatehji



> Only the select few, on the basis of their good deeds, receive His Grace.



I personally feel good deeds count for nothing, I think it is the state of mind that we attempt to achieve, not through parrot squawking, inward contemplation or other fancy new age rituals, but boring hard understanding and practice of Bani.




> Only upon pushing Ego to one side, does the illusion of seperateness dissapear and we realise that we have always been ONE with GOD.



I feel at one with God right now veerji, I have no illusion of seperateness, and my ego remains intact. Also, I feel truly pushing the ego to one side requires a bit more than paying lip service to the concept. 

If our insides do not match our outsides, what is the point,.


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## arshi (Jun 20, 2012)

Harry ji

Gurfateh

<?"urn:<img src=" />
My main purpose was to focus on the translation of the <I>pankti</I>:

*<I>vadee so vajag naankaa sachaa sabhnee chhaalaa maaree-aa kartaa karay so ho-ay. (469)</I>*
<I></I>
However, I got carried away and ventured a little further in the time available.


<I>You wrote: “I personally feel good deeds count for nothing, I think it is the state of mind that we attempt to achieve, not through parrot squawking, inward contemplation or other fancy new age rituals, but boring hard understanding and practice of Bani”.</I>
<I></I>
I do not know what we are debating here. Understanding Gurbani and adopting its teachings in our practical lives may be difficult at times but certainly not boring - it is an exiting and uplifting process of learning, assimilation and application. 

I agree with you this is the right way for us to progress towards spiritual enlightenment or whatever you may want to call it – <I>Naam jappo, kirat karo, </I>and<I> wand shako</I> (remaining attached to His Naam, honest labour, and sharing our fruits of labour and spiritual knowledge/philosophy with others are a major part of clean and Truthful Living. I accept we all interpret this according to our own experience and spiritual status. If this practice does not translate into good deeds then what will? At the end of the day we are judged by our actions. Let us take the relevant <I>pankti</I> again.

*ਜਿਨ **ਕੀ **ਲੇਖੈ **ਪਤਿ **ਪਵੈ **ਚੰਗੇ **ਸੇਈ **ਕੇਇ**॥**੩॥ **<I>jin kee laykhai pat pavai changay say-ee kay-ay. ||3|| (469)</I>*
*<I></I>*
ਲੇਖੈ… means accountability (judgement) of our actions; ਪਤਿ….translates into respect, recognition.

I respectfully, leave it to you to translate the rest as per your own understanding.

<I>You wrote: “Also, I feel truly pushing the ego to one side requires a bit more than paying lip service to the concept”.</I>
*<I></I>*
Agreed ji but it goes a little further than just putting it to one side. I wrote a whole article on ego which was posted on SPN under ‘Spiritual Articles’. It may (or may not) help.

<I>“If our insides do not match our outsides, what is the point,”</I>
<I></I>
Absolutely - Truth is noble and divine but higher still is truthful living. 

Just an attempt to further clarify my point of view and no offence or discourtesy intended.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Luckysingh (Jun 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji
> 
> I personally feel good deeds count for nothing, I think it is the state of mind that we attempt to achieve, not through parrot squawking, inward contemplation or other fancy new age rituals, but boring hard understanding and practice of Bani.
> 
> ...


 
Your ego is within you. To be able to push it and dampen it can only be done if you are able to understand and be in tune with your own 'within'.

I still think that you feel that seva is far more superior to simran.
It's actually 'ego' that tells you this. 
But a person that does both, doesn't find any reason to compare.

One persons definition of seva is not the others. In another thread, I did point out the problem that we can very easily encounter with our ego associated with acts of seva.

Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2012)

Rajinderji



> I do not know what we are debating here. Understanding Gurbani and adopting its teachings in our practical lives may be difficult at times but certainly not boring - it is an exiting and uplifting process of learning, assimilation and application.



The problem with Sikhism is that is its quite boring. By my understanding, no miracles, no afterlife, no divine intervention, no prayers answered by soul stirring music, thunder and lightning etc. No bells to ring, no candles to light, no photos or idols to bow before, no heaven, no sin, I mean its no wonder really that many have adopted Vedic practices and some still maintain that a mention in the SGGS is a validation of existence. 

I find studying the SGGS similar to when I was a student at school. There is theory, practical, after a while you come to love and respect the words as if they had personality themselves, which they do. What we are debating here is whether it is better to go out in the world and do the best you can, or hide away in dark rooms and connect with your self.



> I accept we all interpret this according to our own experience and spiritual status. If this practice does not translate into good deeds then what will? At the end of the day we are judged by our actions. Let us take the relevant pankti again.



Who judges us? what is the punishment? what is the reward? My understanding is that there is no judgement, no punishment and no reward. Judgement is handed out immediately by Creation depending on your actions, if you kick a dog, it will bite you. Your post seems to intimate that good deeds will bring us a positive judgement, I agree to this to the extent that doing good rarely has bad consequences, but accountability to a higher power, I do not think so, we have free will to either follow Hukam or not, if a smoker ignores advice not to smoke and gets lung cancer, that is not celestial justice, that is Creation at work within the laws set out by Creator, intervention is non existent in my view. 



> Agreed ji but it goes a little further than just putting it to one side. I wrote a whole article on ego which was posted on SPN under ‘Spiritual Articles’. It may (or may not) help.



A very good read sir, if I may, I find the phrases 'with the Gurus Grace' and 'with the Gurus blessing' slightly defeating. I take a much more simplistic route, ego is something that needs to be understood. If I eat too much sugar, I may get diabetes, I know this, so I cut my sugar down, if I am ego ridden, then I cannot see any further than me, so in the same way, I need to be aware of the damage ego can cause me, it is my job, my look out to control the same, it requires discretion, understanding, to say that I will accomplish this with the Gurus blessing implies I am not willing to undertake the task on my own, that I require magical help, that I must chant and pray for this help, when I could be spending the time learning and studying. 



> and no offence or discourtesy intended.



absolutely none taken, these reflect my own opinions only, rather than any interpretation of Bani I would push on another.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2012)

Luckyji



> Good deeds are NOT a waste of time. What makes a person is their actions and deeds.



Good deeds alone by their very definition are a complete waste of time. If a deed needs to be preceded by the word 'good' than it implies some sort of quota system, ie, 'today I will do some good deeds' as opposed to 'today I will not do some good deeds', surely when all deeds are good, than there is no distinction between deeds and good deeds. The argument between what is more important is pointless, good deeds alone, just like simran on its own, is pointless. I would have thought what makes a person is what their thoughts are. Actions and deeds can be made regardless, but a mindset, that is a different matter. 



> Isn't seva a good deed then ?



NO, not on its own, 



> What do you mean by inward contemplation ?



putting yourself in a trance through repetition of words, it is a drug like state with little or no redeeming features in my opinion. 



> Simran is clearly not this, I have explained before and will say it again, that it is getting in touch and in tune with the creator and creation within you.



all one has to do is listen, elaborate breathing/muttering/chanting bring nothing extra, I can be in touch and tune with Creator whilst I am driving, walking, eating, it is the concept of a special time when one gets in touch and in tune with Creator that I find hilarious, its a bit like those that think God only exists in the temple, and outside of that anything goes. I have also explained before, but will also say again, this is not my definition of simran, this is my definition of meditation. 




> It is not a selfish act if it helps one become more spriritual and more in harmony with all that is around them.



I have heard the same phrase used by pot smoking hippies, next you will be telling me you can smell the colours too..



> Your ego is within you. To be able to push it and dampen it can only be done if you are able to understand and be in tune with your own 'within'.



agreed!



> I still think that you feel that seva is far more superior to simran.



Actually I do not, I did, but I have shifted my opinion, I think that seva for the purposes of doing seva is no more superior than simran for the purposes of simran. I think that far more important than either is the state of Naam, the state of connection, that does away with the whole argument altogether, once you have achieved naam, everything is mapped out for you, your connection is 100% 24/7, under this state everything is seva and simran, all at the same time. 



> But a person that does both, doesn't find any reason to compare.



Agreed!



> One persons definition of seva is not the others. In another thread, I did point out the problem that we can very easily encounter with our ego associated with acts of seva.



There can also be ego in simran, lets face it, there can be ego in everything, seva without understanding, without it coming from the heart, without it being an extension of your mindset, can only be the product of ego


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## chazSingh (Jun 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Rajinderji
> 
> The problem with Sikhism is that is its quite boring. By my understanding, no miracles, no afterlife, no divine intervention, no prayers answered by soul stirring music, thunder and lightning etc. No bells to ring, no candles to light, no photos or idols to bow before, no heaven, no sin, I mean its no wonder really that many have adopted Vedic practices and some still maintain that a mention in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a validation of existence.
> Satnam Harry Ji, you say above 'by your understanding' ...please make your sangat more with some of the souls on this forum who have gone beyond 'understanding' and are actually 'experiencing'. They will kindly explain as i have done in the past the power of Simran...and when you also start to 'experience' rather than have your mind 'create an understanding' then you will know that sikhi is way BEYOND all fantasy ideology like you mentioned above...it is sooo soo much MORE. Then gurbani will be literally be ALIVE inside of you. the whole of creation will be there before you and all you'll want to do is serve and love everyone and everything whilst being jivan mukt.
> ...


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## chazSingh (Jun 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
God bless all


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## arshi (Jun 21, 2012)

Harry ji

<?"urn:<img src=" />
I am pushed for time right now but would have liked to go into more detail – perhaps later.

Simran and sewa (seva) go hand in hand. One without the other will fire up ego. Gurbani teaches us to do Sewa with <I>shudh hirdha</I> (purity of heart and intention) - <I>nishkam sewa</I> (i.e. serving without expecting a return – selfless sewa). Gurbani, amongst other things, assists to nurture a <I>shudh hirda</I>. Simran here is used as a term which goes beyond mere reciting and into actual interpretation and understanding – ready for implementation.

Again, I repeat, Sikhi is certainly not boring. True we do not have the razmataz attached to other faiths, but that does not make Sikhi boring. Every time I visit Guru ji (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) I return with <I>khulay gaffeys</I> (generous handfuls) of priceless gems of knowledge and wisdom. More on this later – really pushed for time.

Regards and apologies for any errors - written in haste. 

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2012)

Chazji



> Satnam Harry Ji, you say above 'by your understanding' ...please make your sangat more with some of the souls on this forum who have gone beyond 'understanding' and are actually 'experiencing'



The phrase ' by my understanding' is deliberate, I dislike making categoric universal statements that imply I alone have all the answers. You will also find, 'I think' 'it is my belief', 'in my opinion' rather than 'there is', 'there can be', 'then you will know' etc. 

I think you may have posted the wrong link


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## chazSingh (Jun 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
wrong link?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2012)

> Therefore i feel sorry that you think Sikhi is Boring....





> Again, I repeat, Sikhi is certainly not boring. True we do not have the razmataz attached to other faiths, but that does not make Sikhi boring.




I used the expression  "boring"  to highlight the fact that Sikhi encourages a minimum of fuss and ceremony in the whole aspect of worship. I like it like that, I would not have it any other way, in fact, I would go as far as to say that I am probably incapable of following any other religion due to my intense dislike or ritual and ceremony. 

What I love about Sikhism is the simplicity, the lack of reward, the ability to use your own brain, to be logical, scientific, it is rare that I embrace a new concept in Sikhism and think, 'well thats pretty unlikely', no tall stories, no divine miracles, it is simple and unexciting, all one has to do is be a genuinely good person with love in their heart, judge no other, learn to control the mind, and be happy with whatever outcome, 

so that I may clarify myself clearly, It is the simplicity and the bare bones of enlightenment , in that context, the word 'boring' is to be taken as a compliment, compared with the exciting competition, virgins in paradise, elephants, monkeys, multi limbed gods, etc


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2012)

Chazji

Wrong video I think, I was all geared up for judgement, and I got spirituality


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## chazSingh (Jun 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> Wrong video I think, I was all geared up for judgement, and I got spirituality


 
No ji, its the correct video...
please watch it all from start to finish...but from 1minute onwards you get your answer about judgement, but it all ties in with his complete message.

God bless u


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 21, 2012)

Whatever the Lord (WaheGuru) has ordained will happen. O Nanak, the True Lord, himself, watches over us (sustains life). All beings (being ambitious) exert themselves to the fullest but the reward is in His Hands – the end result is as He desires. S. Arshi Ji

Arshi Ji,

For me whole of gurbani is guide 'how to be truthful'. Gurbani dimsises ordained will of waheuru by tellin, din rat kamairo so ayo mathai SGGS.461.4 

When I go through the pauri of the sabd which is the central idea of the sloke it reads like, 'gur kirpa tai jaania jithai tudh aap bhujaia sehjai hi sach smaeya' - when I relish the sabd guru I recognize myself and thus in natural way I entered into bliss. 

When I reflect the central idea on the sloke, I observe the context of the sabd is demon thought' mind which has taken control over my body. Thus despite efforts of all my body organs I was able to do only what mind wished, since the whole body is bondage to the order of mind. In that context 'aagai jaat n jor' means by applying force I cannot change the order of mind. 

Meaning of 'Jin kai laikhai patt hovai' who are able to relish the divine wisdom, here you will notice 'patt' stands for divine wisdom and not honor.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## ZaraONE (Jun 21, 2012)

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...more-important-simran-sewa-12.html#post166645

I had been reading posts for the last couple of days but did not feel inclined to respond. This morning I noticed the URL header and when I saw 1666 (Guru Govind Singh year of birth) and 45 I knew this was my cue to send a small message on this thread.  I have had a previous "experience" of 1666 so knew this was Guru's "sign."

Some sing of His Gifts, and know His sign and Insignia - Ang 1

Guru "speaks" through Gurbani to us all we simply need to watch for his signals
Ang 45 - http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/45

Why do I know this?  It is an intuitive knowing a blessing that Guru has opened up within. I see signs, riddles, hints and clues that Guru puts on my path and with a sense of fun and high Spirit (Chardi Kala.)  Life is for living in Joy. The answers we seek we can asked aloud or through the heart and then Guru Ji will show you his "signals" and the path to take.  

Let Guru guide each of us on the best method of simran (meditation) and the seva will flow naturally from within.

Blessings and Joy to All
Mandip


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## Luckysingh (Jun 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> Good deeds alone by their very definition are a complete waste of time. If a deed needs to be preceded by the word 'good' than it implies some sort of quota system, ie, 'today I will do some good deeds' as opposed to 'today I will not do some good deeds', surely when all deeds are good, than there is no distinction between deeds and good deeds. The argument between what is more important is pointless, good deeds alone, just like simran on its own, is pointless. I would have thought what makes a person is what their thoughts are. Actions and deeds can be made regardless, but a mindset, that is a different matter.
> 
> ...


 
Simran and meditation helps to bring your own disguised hidden ego to the forefront. This is the difference, it helps you to confront it.
Whereas seva can fool one's ego quite easily, so one has to be careful and cautious.

Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2012)

Luckyji

thank you for your reply, one comment did make me chuckle though, 



> Harryji, it's the thoughts that lead to actions.
> A priest is so because of his actions, a chef is so because of his actions, a thief is so because of his actions, a mechanic is so because of his actions. I am so because of my actions but yes, I would rather be judged and assumed by my thoughts if that were possible.



maybe its just me Veerji, but I am more than happy to be judged on my actions than my thoughts. If I were judged on my thoughts, then I really would be in big trouble peacesignkaur


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## chazSingh (Jun 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> thank you for your reply, one comment did make me chuckle though,
> 
> ...


This is just it though, we can hide our thoughts away from others. But we cannot hide them from God because he hears them all.
The more we don't allow these thoughts to influence our actions, the more control we gain, and eventually the mind will give up trying to annoy you 

the trick is (as we always dissagree on) if i ignore these evil thoughts whilst walking around and living my daily lives...it will clean up my conscios mind, but if i confront these thoughts in Simran/meditation i can wipe them from my SUBconscious mind...the root of the thoughts which will purify me.

Therefore rather than me having perverted thoughts about someone, but not acting on them.....the perverted thought will not even manifest in my mind and my actions towards that other someone will be completely pure and i'll TRUELY recognise the god in her.


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 22, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> the trick is (as we always dissagree on) if i ignore these evil thoughts whilst walking around and living my daily lives...it will clean up my conscios mind, but if i confront these thoughts in Simran/meditation i can wipe them from my SUBconscious mind...the root of the thoughts which will purify me.
> 
> Therefore rather than me having perverted thoughts about someone, but not acting on them.....the perverted thought will not even manifest in my mind and my actions towards that other someone will be completely pure and i'll TRUELY recognise the god in her.


S. Chaz Singh Ji

I am really shocked to learn this invention, lokan raam khilona jana. If it is so then why Guru sahib have said to repetition of any word as 'kudi kudeh thees' it is just wasteful action.

Best regards
Mohinder Sinh Sahni


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## chazSingh (Jun 22, 2012)

japjisahib04 said:


> S. Chaz Singh Ji
> 
> I am really shocked to learn this invention, lokan raam khilona jana. If it is so then why Guru sahib have said to repetition of any word as 'kudi kudeh thees' it is just wasteful action.
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Mohinder Ji,

I said 'Simran/meditation' - did i mention repetition of a Word?
Simran to me (through my 'own' experience and i thank guru ji for it) is a million times more than just repetition of a word.
Also when i use a mantra, it is not merely a word, it is shabad guru - vibration of sound/energy.
I can only talk via my own experience so appology if it is different from yourself.

Gurbani talk constantly about meditation/simran and focussing with 'Ek man' single minded om God.

God bless everyone.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> This is just it though, we can hide our thoughts away from others. But we cannot hide them from God because he hears them all.
> The more we don't allow these thoughts to influence our actions, the more control we gain, and eventually the mind will give up trying to annoy you
> 
> the trick is (as we always dissagree on) if i ignore these evil thoughts whilst walking around and living my daily lives...it will clean up my conscios mind, but if i confront these thoughts in Simran/meditation i can wipe them from my SUBconscious mind...the root of the thoughts which will purify me.
> ...



Chazji

First and foremost, I think what you have is brilliant for you, I am not trying to change your mental setup. 

I never ignore my thoughts, and they are not normally of a sexual nature, it is more like a customer comes in, and I can tell they just want free advice, so mentally, my mind is thinking, 'here is another time waster wasting my time', and they start asking questions, and I am mentally answering ' look fatty, your not going to buy anything, so why not just **** off and leave me alone', what actually comes out of my mouth is ' there there, tell me all about it and I will see if I can help you with any advice' and I nod and make sympathetic noises, but all the time, my thoughts are going in the opposite direction, ' hmm obesity and halitosis, what a wonderful combination'. 

I did spend some time being absolutely honest, and that actually got me a following of people who thought I was hilarious, a sort of Basil Fawlty computer shop owner, people would come in just to be abused, but I realised I would rather at least be 50% in tune with Sikhi through my actions than not at all. 

I deal with these inner voices through teaching them, I have to teach them the wisdom of patience, kindness, love for others with no return, I do this through study and practical observations, to do meditation in order to combat them seems pointless, but that is only to me, and I do not wish to deride something that you clearly get a lot of support from, but I think it is questionable whether it is truly Sikhi or not. There are many quotes that come to mind that deride meditation in the SGGS. It is a word I hate to use with respect to my relationship with Creator, I find contemplation a much better word.


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## chazSingh (Jun 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> First and foremost, I think what you have is brilliant for you, I am not trying to change your mental setup.
> 
> ...


 
I think it all boils down to everyones own experience and understanding of the words Simran and Meditation.

Some people think Simran is just parrot chanting...and at an intial stage it maybe was for even myself.
But it develops to something so much more. We can spend all our lives trying to find/experience god on the outside but gurbani says all along, look within...he's right there. So Simran develops day by day, gets deeper and deeper to a point where the repeating of a mantra just helps you setlle and increase conscentration, after that what happens is beyond words.

Contemplation is a great word, and probably describes it perfectly...and its grace that gets you doing that in  the first place. The 'seeking' is grace of guru. the wanting to know and find out is 'grace of guru'.

I used to sit and contemplate at work, in the car...and i still do...i'm doing it now sat at work  but in deep Simran, the contemplation becomes like a one to one connection to god. hard to explain.

Keep doing what you're doing...its all great.


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## arshi (Jun 22, 2012)

Mohinder Singh ji

*:**੧**॥** ਵਦੀ ਸੁ ਵਜਗਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਚਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ**॥**ਸਭਨੀ ਛਾਲਾ ਮਾਰੀਆ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਹੋਇ**॥ **vadee so vajag naankaa sachaa vaykhai so-ay.sabhnee chhaalaa maaree-aa kartaa karay so ho-ay.*

*Whatever the Lord (WaheGuru) has ordained will happen. O Nanak, the True Lord, himself, watches over us (sustains life). All beings (being ambitious) exert themselves to the fullest but the reward is in His Hands – the end result is as He desires.*

I personally cannot reconcile your version with the one above taking the preceding _tuk_ into account (possibly my own shortcomings as I am only at the kindergarten stage of my spiritual journey). I would not dare debate this with you as I have immense respect for you. I think both interpretations have positive outcomes and that is what matters in the end. Interpretation of Gurbani is without limitations and we come up with different pearls of wisdom every time we explore the fathomless ocean of _Sachi Bani_. 


I wish to share with you my understanding of the whole _Pauri_ which follows the above _pankti_. I think you have referred to this as sloak in error as the _sloak (dukh daru sukkh roag)_ follows the _Pauri_. *I found your interpretation of the last tuk very interesting (wouldn’t expect anything less from you) *although it varies from mine. Again both positive interpretations do no harm, in my opinion.

*PAURI*
*ਪਉੜੀ**॥**ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਜਿਨਾ ਕਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਤਿਨੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ**॥ **dhur karam jinaa ka-o tudh paa-i-aa taa tinee khasam dhi-aa-i-aa. **ਏਨਾ ਜੰਤਾ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਵੇਕੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ**॥ **aynaa jantaa kai vas kichh naahee tudh vaykee jagat upaa-i-aa. *


*ਇਕਨਾ ਨੋ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਲਿ ਲੈਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਆਪਹੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਖੁਆਇਆ**॥* _*iknaa no too<SUP>n</SUP> mayl laihi ik aaphu tudh khu-aa-i-aa *_ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਣਿਆ 
*ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਜਿਥੈ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੁ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ॥ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ॥੧੧॥*
*gur *_*kirpa tay janyaa jithai tudh aap bujhyi-aa. sehjay hee sach samayi-aa.*_

*TRANSLATION (based on my limited knowledge):*


*PAURI: *

*Those who are blessed by You, from the very beginning, meditate upon You.*


*In this colourful (multi-coloured, eventful) world as established by You, the Jeevas (beings) have little control upon what they do.*

*Some, by your Will, merge in You whilst the others remain separated. *

*With Guru’s mehar He acknowledges and makes Himself known to the devotee. Then, with ease the devotee is absorbed in Divine Bliss (immersed in You).*


I had great difficulty in translating the last _pankti_ despite referring to Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s Gurmukhi Teeka - Sri Guru Granth Darpan. 


*ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਜਿਥੈ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੁ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ॥ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ॥੧੧॥*
ਗੁਰਕਿਰਪਾ… Guru mehar;ਜਾਣਿਆ.…. recognise, acknowledge
ਬੁਝਾਇਆ…made known to me; ਸਹਜੇ….with ease;ਸਚਿ _(adolta, tikau)_ ….equipoiseਸਮਾਇਆ…absorbed, immersed

I am sure there are other and even better interpretations. Please do refer to Sri Guru Granth Darpan. As you know, it is very thorough and pays a lot of attention to vocabulary and grammar – I am not saying it is always right, but a little bit of our own experience and perception can help. 

Mohinder ji my main aim here is only to exchange notes and not contradict or up-stage anyone. It is a learning and sharing process. I know you are spiritually blessed and may see things differently from me. I am indebted to your earlier input on this. 


Sincere apologies for any oversight and errors.


Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 22, 2012)

S. Arshi Ji

Welcome back and trust you will continue and share your understanding of gurbani with us.

Arshi Ji my understanding of gurbani reveals 'gurmat's evergreen unique message is 'eh kar kariah so eh kar paey' thus it dismisses interpretation of 'dhur' blessed from the beginning or concept of brought forward blessing of previous life. Thus 'dhur' stands for inner voice(antar atma)  or that pivot around which our thought whether of 'manh' or 'gur ki matt' revolves. 

When gurbani says 'tu karta karna mai nahi' it is out of humility guru sahib is telling otherwise everything is done by us and us only whether reflected with gur ki matt or manh ki matt. 

I hope I clarified your query.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## arshi (Jun 24, 2012)

Thanks for the short reply ji. I will keep mine equally short and to the point.

You wrote:



> “inner voice(antar atma) or that pivot around which our thought whether of 'manh' or 'gur ki matt' revolves.”



Agreed on this - however, the ‘trick’, in my humble opinion, lies in the correct interpretation of what gurmat is. When embarking on our journey we have the choice of lifting the left or the right foot - mamat or gurmat ! The path of gurmat, for us mortals, may tend to hover somewhere between our free will and His Hukam. 

We continue to learn from each other.

Best regards ji

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Original (Feb 17, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


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## Original (Feb 17, 2015)

Tejwant Singh


Forgive me for the long delay in responding to your enquiry - been away from SPN for quite a while and have just this minute, reconnected.


*PLEASE NOTE:*


I’m not inviting debate and argument over “religious belief”- purely on rational

grounds. That is to say, from a philosophical perspective, both reason and

empirical observation cannot prove the existence of God. At best, religion acts

as a dimension to bridge the gap between the two. This gap is filled by “faith”-

Sikhism. Weighty questions of this type ought to be left to the faith of the

individual – this then is a special feature of Guru Nanak's Sikhism, believe me.

Let us enjoy therefore !


*Here goes……*


First and foremost - Guru Nanak's school of thought is, so to speak, more pragmatic than theoretical reasoning - hence the maxim*, "higher than truth is truthful living".* And, the emphasis has always been on character and conduct [pauri 38 Japji Sahib], compounded by the three pillers that underpins Sikhism – kirit kar, nam jap and vand shak.


By definition, Sikhism is not a Philosophy; that’s because, philosophy seeks

truth by reason and argument, both religion and mysticism do so by intuition

and revelation. I’m glad you’ve recognized that Gurbani is actually a “beautiful

poetry”. AND, to add if I may – Professor Sahib Singh in his wonderful wisdom

went on to decipher *Japji Sahib* magnificently and explains:


*Pauri 1 –3* talks about the gulf between God and Human and how it can be

filled;

*Pauri 4 – 7* points in a direction that, no gifts or offerings at the House of Lord

will be accepted; alone communication and that too in the Lord’s language

of “love” (Gurbani) [prem patola – amrit vela sacha nauo] will suffice.


Japji Sahib together with the Mool Mantra is a preamble if you like to further

follow, permeate, understand and obey the letter and the spirit of the House

of Nanak, namely, SGGSJ. The word *simran* is used in that context, to

remember “parmatma” from whence this here “atma” is separated.


*Simran* (Punjabi: ਸਿਮਰਨ, Hindi: सिमरन ) is a Punjabi *word* derived from the

Sanskrit *word*स्मरण (smaraṇa, "the act of remembrance, reminiscence,

recollection") which leads to the realization of that which is of the highest

aspect and purpose in one's life.


Literal meaning of simr simr  as used by Gur Arjan in Sukhmani is perhaps

to *repeat* the “name” of the Lord and remember. This act will, at Satgur’s

grace (Gur Parsad) shower benevolence. However, Professor Sahib Singh Ji

acknowledges the word “jap” as equivalent to that of “simran” insofar

repetition and remembrance of the Lord. The use of the word simran by the

Banikars (authors of SGGSJ) is to show separation from the beloved and to utter

[jap - repeat] its name in remembrance [simran].


Seva is, literally speaking – service. Some commentators join the two,

simran is seva. Whatever is rendered without personal interest in Sikh

theology is “seva”. However, from a practical Sikh perspective, whatever

exertion, be it mental or physical, be it voluntary or involuntary is

rendered is considered seva - more like a bank statement if you like, credit-

debit. That which is voluntary becomes creative in this and the next world, and

that which is involuntary is repayment of past karm. All this on account of a

detereministic world view.


That said, Kabir Ji sums it neatly:


*ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਨ*

*ਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭ*

*ੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ *

*ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥p340 SGGSJ*


In a nutshell, Kabir explains that the 52 Letters of the Alphabet (Sanskrit) can take us to the world of Ek on kar but because of its ineffability cannot do full justice in describing and detailing – simply because, those letters are not in the alphabet.


Wow and Awe are states of being or “indescribable moments” if you like; they

can only be experienced – grammatical construction fail to capture their true exposure – some commentators refer to them as "a-ha" moments, meaning "euphoric state".


When Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon - "wow" was that moment albeit

explainable through scientific means. Moreover, a total solar eclipse which takes place every 12 years or so, is also, that moment. Similarly, Guru Nanak when in that mystical state of being, also lets-go of the semantic and syntax characteristics of everyday language and expresses it as "Wah- guru". And, since Nanak’s “guru” was “shabd”- his natural exclamation was “Wah-e-guru”. The chanting of this particular gurmantra enables a gursikh to connect with the sound current – Anhad Shabd [page 124 SGGSJ].


Hope this helps –

  Take care -


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## chazSingh (Feb 18, 2015)

Simran is a way for us to understand the painter rather than be attached to the painting...
Simran allows us to once again realize that there is something more than just the show that is in motion
Simran allows us to realize that we are more than just the character that is playing out in the show

Can there be anything more amazing than that...while the world is entangled in the Show, the Sikh stops for a moment...contemplates and wonders if this is the 'complete' reality...

the sikh gets ridiculed because everyone laughs at him/her saying he/she is crazy...whatever we see, hear, touch, taste and smell...this is all there is you crazy nutter...you are nutts

the sikh however feels a deep love, thirst which develops deep within, to not listen to the lost souls that wander aimlessly, but to follow the calling that materializes deep within him/herself.

The sikh on contemplating deep within comes to know of the truth of existance...that there is something that never is born and never dies...

The sikh becomes a complete khalsa..

the sikh then inspires others to seek this 'truth'...

the more souls that awaken to this truth, the more heavenly the world naturally becomes.

Therefore, Simran is NOT for the SELF...SIMRAN IS THE GREATEST SEVA A PERSON CAN DO..
TO GIVE UP ALL THE ENTICEMENTS OF THE WORLD, TO AWAKEN TO THE TRUTH AND THEN INSPIRE OTHERS TO SEEK IT.

THIS IS TRUE SERVICE TO HUMANITY


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## chazSingh (Feb 18, 2015)

harry haller said:


> hmm a state of mind, sounds very yogi like to me....



in what way does a state of mind sound very yogi like ji?
i mean, for example...two people could be sat in the same room and witness an event...one becomes frightened, fearful and freezes..
the other keeps a clear headm keeps his emotions in check, analyzes the situation, looks for a solution, and attempts to execute the solution.

is this describing two very different states of mind? is this now Yogic?


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## Original (Feb 18, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Simran is a way for us to understand the painter rather than be attached to the painting...
> Simran allows us to once again realize that there is something more than just the show that is in motion
> Simran allows us to realize that we are more than just the character that is playing out in the show
> 
> ...



Thank you for the response Chaz Singh, but you've missed the point I was trying to make. The question at source was "simran" the meaning thereof liteally and metaphorically. You're quite right insofar analytical exponential of the word simran but the context within which the Banikars use it is as detailed in my earlier text.

Much obliged


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