# Guru's Or God?



## Gurpreet Kaur (Jan 1, 2005)

Do you believe the Guru's and God are one? Who do you pray to? Have you ever wondered whether an intercessor/s are necessary to worship God? If you believe Guru's and God are one, what exactly do we pray to? Just a bit confused..

As a comparison, the Islamic understanding is that a Prophet is a human being, and for them Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is just a Prophet..what do we believe our Guru's are? How would you compare?


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## lion (Jan 2, 2005)

As a comparison, the Islamic understanding is that a Prophet is a human being, and for them Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is just a Prophet..[/QUOTE]

if that is the case,then why they worship to Mohammad's "grave" in Mecca?...i know,they even offers there 5 prayers to that direction.....


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## Singhstah (Jan 2, 2005)

I believe Guroo Sahibs and God are one, Guru Nank Dev Ji is Nirankar himself, then Guroo Nanak Dev Ji passed the jot of God into Guroo Angad Dev Ji and so on. With my tiny brain i understand that Guroo Sahibs jot is like a drop of water from the sea of Vaheguroo. pls correct me if i am wrong bhull chuk maaf


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 2, 2005)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.


GURUS came from GOD but are definitley NOT GOD/AKAL PURAKH.
Guru Ji themselves have written very strictly AGAINST calling them GOD/WAHEGURU as WAHEGURU is AJOONI..He is NEVER BORN...but the GURUS were all BORN.....WAHEGURU is AKAAL....independent of the boundaries of TIME  and DEATH..WAHEGURU is TIMELESS and BEYOND DEATH..our GURUS who were Born and lived their human lives and also DIED.

The SIDHS asked GURU NANAK JI " who is your GURU..and Guru Ji replied SHABAD is MY GURU.... that SHABAD is in the GURBANI..and the JYOT of GURUS rests in the GURU GRANTH JI...which is our GURU from time immemorial..but technically from 1708 when GURU GOBIND SINGH JI left this Mortal World and told us to beleive ONLy in GURU GRANTH JI.

From Thence on NO HUMAN GURU/DEHDHAREE GURU/SANT/BABA is "REQUIRED" as an intermediary to help us across the Ocean of MAYA as GURU JI in His INFINITE WISDOM has already prepared the GURU GRANTH for eternity to offer us guidance.

The "word picture" of AKAL PURAKH is sketched in the MOOL MANTAR... the WAY to meet WAHEGURU which is our GOAL...is further explained in the JAPJI SAHIB...and then further explained more than adequately in the entire GURBANI of GURU GRANTH JI through  the words of the varuious Bhagtas, Holy men of Islam, Hinduism, Bhatts, etc...leaving no dount that to meet GOD is through breaking the WALL between GOD and Human...and that wall can only be Broken by the SELF. ONLY the SELF will go before GOD..no mother/father/brother/sister/wife/husband/uncle/daddy/auntie/grandma/grandpa/holy man/sadhu/babaji/maharaj ji/sant ji/brahmgiani ji....is GOING TO ACCOMPANY the SELF in front of Yamraaj where the lekha is to be read out...as we sow so shall we reap...NO BODY can be of any help whatsoever..ONLy the Naam we japp, the good deeds we do, the simran we did will go with us.

The SANTS, the Brahmgianais who do Naam japp/simran/bhagtee all do it for SELF..it will serve them ONLY...they CANT give it away to anyone...otherwise GURBANI would have said so..BUT Gurbani is very clear on this point. So there is NO SHORTCUT...NO catching hold of a sant/babaji's chola and swimming across the ocean of maya holding on to him....sorry but Gurbani says clerarly: Karmee appo apni...not karmnee sant ji ki/ or karmee babaji ki...

The GURUS were the DIVINE MESSENGERS...they came they passed us the MESSAGE...now it is up to us to FOLLOW the mESSAGE, live our lives accordingly and gain from the vast knowledge Guru Ji left for us...

Jarnail Singh


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## lion (Jan 2, 2005)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
			
		

> waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
> 
> 
> GURUS came from GOD but are definitley NOT GOD/AKAL PURAKH.
> ...



i agree with you Gyani,in the beginning it was shabad(word),and in the End its a shabad(guru granth sahib ji)


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 2, 2005)

Singhstah said:
			
		

> I believe Guroo Sahibs and God are one, Guru Nank Dev Ji is Nirankar himself, then Guroo Nanak Dev Ji passed the jot of God into Guroo Angad Dev Ji and so on. With my tiny brain i understand that Guroo Sahibs jot is like a drop of water from the sea of Vaheguroo. pls correct me if i am wrong bhull chuk maaf


I kinda understand where you are coming from but disagree with your choice of words. In a sense we are all nirankar [formless] as we all have a formless soul. Gurus were not one with God from birth, they became one with God by defeating all vices and meditating on him.
Every human is unique and has different knowledge of the one God, so we would come under as a drop of water, but religious scholars/teachers/Gurus would be considered as a bucket of God's sea of knowledge rather than just a droplet of water [which is what all ordinary people are].


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## Gurpreet Kaur (Jan 2, 2005)

Jarnail Singh, how would you explain the tuk 'gur parmesar eko jaan'? Yes Akaal is not born, but He is also within us, and we are reborn, but He remains the same does He not? Would you say the Sargun aspect of Vaheguru is not within us because we were created? Or would you say it is but we havent realised it unlike the Guru's? What would you call a being who has realised Himself? Dont try to put things into boxes and open your mind.

Lion, fYI, the Muslims who pray to the Prophet's grave are severely misguided and do not represent the main body of Muslims following Sunnah, they are similar to the Sikhs who believe all Sants and Mahapurush are fake, extremists.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 2, 2005)

Singing_Silence Kaur said:
			
		

> Jarnail Singh, how would you explain the tuk 'gur parmesar eko jaan'? Yes Akaal is not born, but He is also within us, and we are reborn, but He remains the same does He not? Would you say the Sargun aspect of Vaheguru is not within us because we were created? Or would you say it is but we havent realised it unlike the Guru's? What would you call a being who has realised Himself? Dont try to put things into boxes and open your mind.
> 
> Lion, fYI, the Muslims who pray to the Prophet's grave are severely misguided and do not represent the main body of Muslims following Sunnah, they are similar to the Sikhs who believe all Sants and Mahapurush are fake, extremists.


 Bhen Ji,
Gur Parmeshar eko jaan... Jaan means "treat".."consider"...the GURU teaches us about Parmehsar..so a "GURU" can be considered "parmehsar"..BUT HE is NOT Parmeshar Himself..one is a Drop of water..the other is the Ocean....both same in some ways..but definitley drop is not the ocean.
Parmeshar is in all of us...the GURU makses us "see" JAAN the Parmeshar INSIDE US.  Actually the "sadhu", Sant", "guru" mentioned in Gurbani are all that entity INSIDE us that point us towards WAHEGURU..our "inner conscience"that always has that tiny voice telling us the correct thing to do..

We have all heard of the famous phrase..All MEN are Brothers. Now that doesnt mean that all men are really brothers in the sense of same dna, parents etc..it just means "treat" "consider" all men as brothers just as in the gurbani tuk you quoted above...this is used metaphorically and not literally. IF we take BOTH quotes literally then we will face a myriad of problems ..GUrbani doesnt create problems..it solves them.

Love

jarnail Singh


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## lion (Jan 2, 2005)

Lion, fYI, the Muslims who pray to the Prophet's grave are severely misguided and do not represent the main body of Muslims following Sunnah, they are similar to the Sikhs who believe all Sants and Mahapurush are fake, extremists.[/QUOTE]


it means,whoever goes to Mecca or pray aroud Kabha,they are all misguided?..where are the true muslims then?


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## Gurpreet Kaur (Jan 3, 2005)

Lion you need start reading your own posts, you were the one who said some muslims pray to the GRAVE of the prophet and those are the misguided ones, the ones who go on hajj to Mecca do so for a valid reason and are commanded to, big difference.

Jarnail Singh, your argument is contradictory, you said God is not Guru, yet you say Gurbani tells us to consider Guru as God, so do we pretend the Guru's are God (cos it is commanded in the Gurbani) and write that we dont really believe that on forums?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 3, 2005)

Singing_Silence Kaur said:
			
		

> Jarnail Singh, your argument is contradictory, you said God is not Guru, yet you say Gurbani tells us to consider Guru as God, so do we pretend the Guru's are God (cos it is commanded in the Gurbani) and write that we dont really believe that on forums?


Bhen Ji,
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

I am afraid i fail to see any contradiction.  GOD is GOD and GURU is GURU.
GURU NANAK is NOT GOD...and it says so in GURBANI not once but many times. Gurbani tells us that anyone who "calls ME PARMEHAR"..will GO TO NARAK ( Guru Gobind Singh Ji )

There is a bit of GOD in Each and every of his creation... that also Gurbani tells us....and therefore there is GOD in the GURU.... we are told to CONSIDER Guru as GOD... we are also told to Consider our Parents as GOD...the Wife is told to consider her husband as Pati -PARMESHAR... are all these contradictions ??  AM I GOD to my wife ??..can she consider me and GOD as the SAME ?? or is this a metaphor to explain the "position" of an exalted person. definitley men of GOD, such as GURUS have MORe of GOD in them than say Jack the Ripper....thats why they are called Men of GOD...but they are NOT GOD.

Gurbani also tells us Pani pita, pavan GURU...is that contradictory ? Is WATEr our Father and can we consider a glass of water same as our father..and what about Pavaan being GURU..

We cannot take words literally. The GURUS are part and parcel of GOD but NOT GOD.  any one calling Guru nanak-Jyot GOD risks heavy punishment as stated by GURbani of GURU Gobind Singh Ji.

Jarnail Singh


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## Amarpal (Jan 4, 2005)

Dear Singing_Silence Kaur Ji,

Any understanding that says that Guru is 'The Sat' (God) is negation of the Mool Mantra of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

'The Sat' is Ajuni, Gurus are born. 'The Sat' is one i.e. Ek Ongkar, Gurus are many. 'The Sat' is the doer i.e. Karta Purakh, Gurus are teachers or guides. 'The Sat' is timeless i.e. Akal, Gurus lived only in thier life time. 'The Sat' is is cause less i.e. Saibang, Gurus are born the way we came to this world. 

'The Sat' is Nirakar, Gurus have form. You can evolve into divinity and become a Guru, but you or I can never become 'The Sat'.

I agree with the notion that 'The Sat' is in every living entity - in you, in me, in plants, in animals. This is not sufficient condition for me the call these entities as 'The Sat'. They are just creation of 'The Sat', they are not the immaculate 'Niranjan' 'Sat'.

Please think over it.

The idea of equating Guru with 'The Sat', which you have referred to as God in your post, is not Sikhi i.e. it is not what Sri Guru Granth Sahib tells us. This is not the way I understand Sikhi.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Prabjyot Kaur (Jan 6, 2005)

Singing_Silence Kaur said:
			
		

> Do you believe the Guru's and God are one? Who do you pray to? Have you ever wondered whether an intercessor/s are necessary to worship God? If you believe Guru's and God are one, what exactly do we pray to? Just a bit confused..


Kaur Ji, 
Here is what I understand....Guru (shabad Guru) is the one that tells us about Akal purkh (God). Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a medium to know about 'God' and 'how can be find our way back to God?' i.e. salvation (mukti) where atma merges back in 'Parm-atma'.
*Guru is not God.* In order to understand the 'tuk' that you mentioned we must understand the whole verse on Ang 864

goNf mhlw 5 ] gurU gurU guru kir mn mor ] gurU ibnw mY nwhI hor ] gur kI tyk rhhu idnu rwiq ] jw kI koie n mytY dwiq ]1] guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ]
it means

hy BweI ! gurU Aqy prmwqmw ƒ ie`k rUp smJo [ jo kuJ prmwqmw ƒ cMgw l`gdw hY, auhI gurU BI (isr-m`Qy) kbUl krdw hY [1[*hy myry mn ! hr vyly gurU (dy aupdyS) ƒ cyqy r`K, mYƒ gurU qoN ibnw koeI hor Awsrw nhIN su`Jdw [ hy mn ! ijs gurU dI b^SI hoeI Awqmk jIvn dI dwiq ƒ koeI imtw nhIN skdw, aus gurU dy Awsry idn rwq itikAw rhu [1[*
 
We pray to Guru for His blessings, since Waheguru is found with Guru's kirpa (Gur-parsaad). I hope it helps to claify the confusion.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 8, 2005)

Prabjyot Kaur said:
			
		

> Kaur Ji,
> Here is what I understand....Guru (shabad Guru) is the one that tells us about Akal purkh (God). Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a medium to know about 'God' and 'how can be find our way back to God?' i.e. salvation (mukti) where atma merges back in 'Parm-atma'.
> *Guru is not God.* In order to understand the 'tuk' that you mentioned we must understand the whole verse on Ang 864
> 
> ...


Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki fateh.

Thank you Bhen Prabhjyot Kaur ji.

IF we vichaar and understand this sacred gurbani of Guru Arjun Ji, we will realise why He sat calmly on the Hot Plate and said: Tera Bhanna Meetha Lageh..NAAM PADARTH Nanak Mangeh.

TERA here refers to AKAL PURAKH....and GURU JI is accepting (sir matheh) wholeheartedly whatever Akal Purakh wants...thus Gur parmehsar eko jaan becomes clear.

A second point i want to make here is that Gurbani is never at any point "ath-kathnee" or "over-done/impossible/exagerrated... Guur Arjun Ji wrote a long time before His Martyrdom in Fire that ''IF it pleases my Akal purakh...I am willing to cut my body to pieces and burn it up MYSELF.. People  hearing/listening/reading  that at that point of Guru ji's LIFE might be under the impression that this is obviously exagerration, ath kathnee..HOW can a person cut up his body piece by piece and burn it in a fire himself out of his free will..GURU JI showed the TRUTH of Gurbani on the Hot Plate much later when the time came.

Not only that, SIKHS of this Same Nanak JYOT, then showed the same truth of Gurbani many many thousands of time over..sawn alive, boiled alive, cut piece by piece, body parts pulled by hot pincers./ burnt alive.....etc etc

DHAN SIKHI

jarnail Singh


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## BabaBaazSinghJi (Thursday at 12:17 AM)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
> 
> 
> GURUS came from GOD but are definitley NOT GOD/AKAL PURAKH.
> ...


Kabeer, sewa kau doe bhalle, ik sant, ik ram. Raam jo daataa mukat ko, sant japaavai naam.

Sant saran jo jan paarai, so jan udranhaar. Sant ki nindaa naanaakaa bahur bahur avtaar.

Naam rahei, saadhu raheo, raheo gur gobind.

Antarjaami purakh bidhaate sardhaa man ki poore, nanak daas ehai sukh maagai, mo kau kar santan ki dhoore.

Brahm giaani aap parmesar.

Nanak saadh prabh bhed naa paee.

Saadh kai sang drirai sabh dharam. Sadh kai sang keval paarbrahm.


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