# Who Are Sikhs According To The Siri Guru Granth Sahib?



## Ozarks (Sep 4, 2009)

Sat Sri Akaal,
I would like to know what are the physical traits or characteristics of a Sikh as laid out in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. Thanks.
Sat Nam


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## International Akaali (Sep 4, 2009)

ਮਃ ੪ ॥ 
मः ४ ॥ 
Mėhlā 4. 
Fourth Mehl: 

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ 
गुर सतिगुर का जो सिखु अखाए सु भलके उठि हरि नामु धिआवै ॥ 
Gur saṯgur kā jo sikẖ akẖā▫e so bẖalke uṯẖ har nām ḏẖi▫āvai. 
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. 

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵੈ ॥ 
उदमु करे भलके परभाती इसनानु करे अम्रित सरि नावै ॥ 
Uḏam kare bẖalke parbẖāṯī isnān kare amriṯ sar nāvai. 
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. 

ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਦੋਖ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ 
उपदेसि गुरू हरि हरि जपु जापै सभि किलविख पाप दोख लहि जावै ॥ 
Upḏes gurū har har jap jāpai sabẖ kilvikẖ pāp ḏokẖ lėh jāvai. 
Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased. 

ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵੈ ਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ 
फिरि चड़ै दिवसु गुरबाणी गावै बहदिआ उठदिआ हरि नामु धिआवै ॥ 
Fir cẖaṛai ḏivas gurbāṇī gāvai bahḏi▫ā uṯẖ▫ḏi▫ā har nām ḏẖi▫āvai. 
Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name. 

ਜੋ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ 
जो सासि गिरासि धिआए मेरा हरि हरि सो गुरसिखु गुरू मनि भावै ॥ 
Jo sās girās ḏẖi▫ā▫e merā har har so gursikẖ gurū man bẖāvai. 
One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind. 
ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ॥ 
जिस नो दइआलु होवै मेरा सुआमी तिसु गुरसिख गुरू उपदेसु सुणावै ॥ 
Jis no ḏa▫i▫āl hovai merā su▫āmī ṯis gursikẖ gurū upḏes suṇāvai. 
That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. 

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
जनु नानकु धूड़ि मंगै तिसु गुरसिख की जो आपि जपै अवरह नामु जपावै ॥२॥ 
Jan Nānak ḏẖūṛ mangai ṯis gursikẖ kī jo āp japai avrah nām japāvai. ||2|| 
Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2|| 

Hope I was Help. 

Fateh


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 5, 2009)

Unfortunately above pankti is interpreted in such a way that anyone (whether he is a thief, rapist, murderer, gambler etc. or who acts smart and makes correction in His perfection by tempering with hairs) if he get up early in the morning and chant His name is Gursikh *which is not correct. It is like sun gala akas ki keeta aaiee rees - On hearing such Divine glory, even the imposter become jealous and start imitating the real saint.*

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait


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## Ozarks (Sep 5, 2009)

I appreciate the posts thus far. Though by traits or characteristics I was hoping for a something of a more physical appearance in nature. I do like the quote from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib and that is one of the few key conditions to who is a Sikh. I guess the impetus for the question was if the Siri Guru Granth Sahib mentions any physical requirements (specifically) or if such requirements were ancillary in source.


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## spnadmin (Sep 5, 2009)

Why Ozarks ji are you interested in physical appearance? There are some tuks in Sri Guru Granth Sahib about this. Now is your time to find these as an outgrowth of daily reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It takes about a year of reading and listening to kathas, and doing Nit Nem too, to be able to recognize at once when a tuk or a vaar is from Japuji Sahib, or Asa di Vaar, or Sohila. You are ready to begin that part of your journey.

Many question can be answered by consulting the Guru directly. Try it at this link. 

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age :SearchGurbani.com 

Use the search engine to search for hair, turban, and other outward attributes of appearance. 


One learns the shabad by reading and hearing it. One begins to understand the shabad by reflecting on it and discussing it with others who are also seekers.


A turban, kurta, kirpan, kara, kechera and kanga can be purchased on the Internet in one hour. You can grow a beard in 3 months. The rest of the process - It takes a lifetime to sort out the inner state of being.


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## Ozarks (Sep 5, 2009)

The interest is based on a pm conversation with another member on SPN member and some questions that sprang up from there. I had poked around a bit looking but thought maybe there would be or should be a one-stop-shop answer or thread. Could not really find anything that I thought was a "must have" list in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. I thought maybe I just wasn't looking for it in the right way or something. I thought that it maybe something in a part of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib that I have yet to get to, so I thought I'd ask.


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## spnadmin (Sep 5, 2009)

You can start your systematic study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib right here with the very question you have asked. Use the search engine. Post the shabads. Invite members to discuss their meaning with you. That gives you a sense of the discipline that contributes to growth of your knowledge of the Guru -- a strong start. A search organized by a theme.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Sep 5, 2009)

Dear Ozark Ji,

The simple and concise answer to your question is that in the spiritual sense there is no value of physical traits in the spiritual world as per AGGS.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## japjisahib04 (Sep 6, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Ozark Ji,
> 
> The simple and concise answer to your question is that in the spiritual sense there is no value of physical traits in the spiritual world as per AGGS.


 
This is the most misleading statement. Since people started misinterpretting the gurbani tuks as per their convenience by stating,'in the spiritual sense there is no value of physical traits as if God was stupid to bestow hair', or whether you are murderer, rapiest, thief, just chant His name - no matter what you do during day the,  the tenth guru had to make a maryada and clearly clarify the four major kureihit - one among them is not to temper with His perfection and shave'. Please pause at this pankti why guru sahib had to state, ' sun gala akash ki keeta aaeeye rees' - upon hearing such divine glory the imposter became jealous started imitating and chanting His name to become spiritual, but guru sahib in next pankti clearly say it is kudi kudai thees - waste of time.   

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

My personal view, and maybe it is not responsive to the thread topic, but I hope it is, is this.

At some point the seeker has to stop asking other people what Sri Guru Granth Sahib says, and has to stop depending on their report. At some point the seeker has to put his or her nose into the Granth and to see for himself and herself what Guruji is saying. How does a person learn to swim without getting wet?


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## AusDesi (Sep 6, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> You can grow a beard in 3 months. .




I wanna ask a question here. What qualifies as a beard?


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

:roll::rofl!!: I think uncut facial hair below the lip and chin -- as long as nature deigns it to be at any point in its evolution. You really cracked me up this morning when I read the question. Fair question.

Three months will give you good coverage and about 1 1/2 inches in length - The Beard Community Bulletin Board FAQ


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## AusDesi (Sep 6, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> :roll::rofl!!: I think uncut facial hair below the lip and chin -- as long as nature deigns it to be at any point in its evolution. You really cracked me up this morning when I read the question. Fair question.
> 
> Three months will give you good coverage and about 1 1/2 inches in length - The Beard Community Bulletin Board FAQ



 Why? It was a legitimate question though it might have been wrongly worded. I mean i know the general definition of a beard its just a bit confusing for me in Sikh terms. 


I mean I have seen sikhs with uncut but threadead beards from the edges to make it look better, rough ungroomed beard, glued beards, neatly trimmed beards, very shortly trimmed beards, goatees and even 5 day growth. Im only counting the ones who had a turban.

I just wanted to know which one of these is actually acceptable. I mean is there a tehnicality in the beard department? Otherwise why would there be so many different styles. Turban i understand because there is no one way to tie a turban but since Sikhs are not allowed to cut hair why are there so many different styles.


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

AusDesi ji

Part of the variation lies in differences in the way beards grow. The distribution of facial hair on individual faces can vary greatly, giving more or thicker growth on the sides from the sideburns, to more under the chin, to more centrally on the chin. This is genetic, and reflects patterns of hair growth that are probably genetic. 

No cutting is the bottom line. No dyeing of hair. Some even say no threaded or braided hair -- I think that is mainly an AKJ rule and have not read it in the Sikh Rehat Maryada. But even with no cutting there are differences in the way the beard grows in.


Differences in appearance can be related to how a beard is groomed. Some Sikhs will tie their beard with a hair net, some use gel and tuck it under and pin it in place, and some let it flow freely. Others comb through the beard with grooming products or even cocoa butter, giving a tamer appearance. That accounts other aspects of variation. 

An analogy would be identical twins with great uncut mustaches. Both have identical patterns of hair growth, and equal length. One twin waxes his to a point, and the other twin does nothing and the mustache is bushy. Twin number 1 has a handlebar mustache; twin number 2 has a walrus style mustache. So they are structurally similar mustaches, but they look different. The appearance is different in spite of no cutting.

If I am not comprehending your question, then you can check the Sikh Rehat Maryada to get the basic requirements.


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## AusDesi (Sep 6, 2009)

I think i got it. So the people who keep a beard which is trimmed are really not following the Maryada even though they make have uncut hair on the head? Now im not sure about the authority of the Maryada but does that mean they are not really sikh?


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## Embers (Sep 6, 2009)

I have not seen it stated but I think an uncut beard could serve as a constant reminder of ones commitment or faith.  I cannot think of any hair more itchy and irritating than an unruly moustache or beard. Elegant as it may be.


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

AusDesi ji

Now this quesiton is more controversial. The simple answer is NO Cutting Anywhere. Head, beard, and everywhere else, according to the Sikh Rehat Maryada. 

Think of a Sikh who decides to compete as a swimmer. To get better speed swimmers will wax or shave the entire body so that any hair at all will not cause friction and slow him/her down. So the observant Sikh will have to think in terms of how to smooth over the scalp and cannot shave any hair on his body. None. 

That is according to the Sikh Maryada. To address whether any cutting of hair disqualifies someone as a Sikh depends on the degree to which the maryada itself does define Sikh identity. There are many threads in the forum in which the Sikh Rehat Maryada is considered providing the rule *for that which cannot be ignored. *There are threads in which the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is used to define Sikh identity in relation to hair. There has been recently a Supreme Court Case in India wherein even tweezing of eyebrows by young women who sought seats at university allocated to Sikhs was determined to disqualify them from receiving federal educational benefits as Sikhs becaus. The reasoning was that HAIR has been the one defining feature of a Sikh historically. This would be a legal determination that applies in India. So I recommend that you explore some of those threads to get answers. 

Anyone who follows me with an answer to your question will undoubtably be very clear about the religious and spiritual guidelines that they are using.


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## Ozarks (Sep 6, 2009)

AusDesi Ji,


AusDesi said:


> I think i got it. So the people who keep a beard which is trimmed are really not following the Maryada even though they make have uncut hair on the head? Now im not sure about the authority of the Maryada but does that mean they are not really sikh?



The Rehat Maryada has the power it does because people agree that it has that power. It is like if you were a Christian would you base your identity on the words written in the Bible or what an encyclopedia/dictionary said was a Christian. One is meant to inspire, the other to define. 
Even there though the Rehat Maryada says:
[SIZE=-1]*  CHAPTER                          1*[/SIZE]_
[SIZE=-1]                         *The Definition of Sikh :*[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                         [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                           * Article I*[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                         Any human being who faithfully believes in[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                         *i.* One Immortal Being, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                         * ii*. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind                          Singh Sahib,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                         iii. The Guru Granth Sahib, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]                         iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and[/SIZE]__[SIZE=-1] v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does                          not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh
[/SIZE]_​You will note no mention of the 5 K's in that definition. It doesn't even mention that you have to follow the other things (conduct and conventions) mentioned in the Rehat Maryada. Bear in mind the term "believes" in the first sentence of article 1 when you get down to item 5. A Sikh must belief in the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, not (necessarily) participate in. It does not say Khalsa = Sikh. Though all Khalsa are Sikh, not all Sikh are Khalsa.

As far as I can find thus far the Siri Guru Granth Sahib seems to contain no explicit physical requirements. I think this owes to its intent to inspire instead of define.
​


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

[SIZE=-1]*d.* Any man or woman of any country,                    religion or caste who  embraces Sikhism                    and solemnly undertakes to abide by                    its principles is entitled to ambrosial  baptism.The person to be baptised should not                    be of very young age; he or she should have attained a plausible                    degree of discretion. The person to                    be baptised must have taken bath and washed the hair and must                    wear all five K's-Kesh (unshorn hair),                    strapped Kirpan (sword),. Kachhehra (prescribed shorts), Kanga                    (Comb  tucked in the tied up hair), Karha                    (Steel bracelet). He/she must not have on his/her person any                    token of any other faith. He/she must                    not have his/her head bare or be wearing a cap. He/she must                                        not be wearing any ornaments piercing                    through any part of the body. The persons to be baptised must                    stand respectfully with hands folded facing the Guru Granth                    Sahib.

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

Forgive me but I am not amritdhari and technically I should not be the one who is teaching. 
[/SIZE]


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...is-a-sehajdhari-sikh.html?highlight=keshdhari

Please read the link above in order to grasp the complexity of this issue.


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

The legal decision

 *High Court says unshorn hair integral to Sikh, but much                  larger threat looms now
*Sach Kanwal Singh 





 

CHANDIGARH:                  At a most poignant juncture of history when the Sikh quom is                  observing 25th year of the most dastardly attack on Sri Darbar                  Sahib, Sri Akal Takht and many other centres of Sikhism, and has                  watched the Indian machinations to save those guilty of leading                  killer mobs in 1984 that tracked, hunted, killed, maimed, looted                  and burnt alive hundreds of Sikhs, a superior court has now                  given a judgement that ostensibly will go far in furthering the                  struggle for Sikh identity.
But there is                  much more to the issue than meets the eye, as is always the case                  when it comes to Indian machinations.        


In a major                  victory of sorts for the Sikh community, a three judge bench of                  the the Punjab and Haryana High Court ruled last Saturday that                  retaining unshorn hair is one of the most important and                  fundamental tenets of the Sikh religion, and the SGPC was fully                  justified in denying admission to a Sikh girl who plucked her                  eyebrows.


In its 154                  page voluminous judgment, Justices J.S.Khehar, Jasbir Singh and                  Ajay Kumar Mittal upheld the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak                  Committee precondition for maintaining ‘Sikh Swarup’ by students                  seeking admission under the Sikh minority community quota in                  institutions run by the religious body.


*WSN's Interventionist                      Role*
                     At one stage, the World Sikh News had to make a direct                      intervention to blow a cover from a deeply entrenched                      conspiracy under which the SGPC was misguided to take a                      pertinently wrong stance over unshorn hair. From behind the                      scenes, Punjab Advocate General HS Mattewal and his son                      Pavit Mattewal, in collaboration with certain elements from                      within the Sikh community, were able to prevail upon the                      SGPC to submit a highly controversial affidavit on December                      5 in the Punjab and Haryana High Court when the court had                      asked the SGPC to define whether someone can cut his hair                      and still be considered a Sehaddhari Sikh. 

                     Pavit, himself a clean shaven patit Sikh and a Legal Advisor                      to CM Parkash Singh Badal, had become a party in the case                      and had advocated that a Sehajdhari can keep                      trimming/cutting his hair. His father, a close chum of the                      ruling Badals, had earlier written articles in leading                      dailies advocating the right of vote for Sehajdharis,                      something opposed tooth and nail by the SGPC and the Sikh                      community as a whole. 

                     The impugned affidavit virtually allowed those                      trimming/cutting their hair to be counted as Sehajdharis                      till they declared themselves to be Keshadharis. Later,                      after a coverted campaign by the WSN and a some public                      spirited Sikhs, the SGPC admitted massive bungling in the                      process leading to submission of that affidavit, sacked Sikh                      History Research Board Director Anurag Singh, and set up an                      inquiry committee to probe how the impugned affidavit came                      to be submitted in the High Court. Later, the SGPC submitted                      a new affidavit that was taken on record by the Full Bench.                      But the report of the probe committee never saw the light of                      the day.

Students                  whom the Guru Ram Das Institute of Medical Sciences and                  Research, Amritsar, had denied admission in MBBS on account of                  their trimming the beard and plucking eyebrows had tried to hide                  behind a facade that unshorn hair were not integral to being a                  Sikh.


The case saw                  SGPC being asked to define the term Sehajdhari, a task it messed                  up at one stage when the WSN was forced to expose a malicious                  affidavit as also the role of some prominent people, including                  that of Pavit Mattewal, CM Parkash Singh Badal's legal advisor                  and son of Advocate General H S Mattewal. 



The Bench                  fully justified the requirement of retaining hair unshorn as a                  precondition for eligibility under the Sikh minority community                  quota.


“If the said                  religious community wishes to enforce the aforesaid norm as a                  precondition for admission, there is nothing wrong about it.”                  Speaking for the Bench, Justice Khehar said in this case, the                  sole consideration before the Bench was whether or not keeping                  hair unshorn was an important fundamental tenet of the Sikh                  religion.


“…Thus                  viewed,on the basis of the undisputed factual position, that all                  the petitioners indulg in trimming their hair or plucking hair                  of their eyebrows, they can legitimately be denied of a benefit                  otherwise available to Sikhs,” the Bench said.









“…We have                  repeatedly concluded…that retaining bodily hair unshorn is one                  of the most essential tenets of the Sikh religion. And as such,                  if a Sikh organisation or body decides not to extend any                  benefit,which is otherwise available to a Sikh,to a person who                  does not maintain his hair unshorn, its determination would be                  perfectly legitimate.” 




“For the                  present controversy, we…hold that retaining hair unshorn is one                  of the most important and fundamental tenets of the Sikh                  religion. In fact, it is undoubtedly a part of the religious                  consciousness of the Sikh faith.” 



The                  historical background of the Sikh religion, legislative                  enactments involving the Sikh religion, the Sikh ‘rehat                  maryada’, the Sikh ‘ardas’and views expressed by scholars of                  Sikhism, the Bench ruled, led to “one unambiguous answer, that                  maintaining hair unshorn is an essential component of the Sikh                  religion.” The Bench stated that under the Sikh ‘rehat maryada’,                  a Sikh is not permitted to dishonour hair, or even to harbour                  any antipathy to hair of the head with which a child is born.                  Dyeing one’s hair is considered to be an act of dishonouring                  hair.

The Judges                  pointed out that “it may be a matter of surprise,” that in their                  conclusion on the controversy, the Bench did not refer to the                  Guru Granth Sahib as the “basis of our determination.” The code                  of conduct is strictly contained in the Sikh ‘rehat maryada.


In this                  case, which saw marathon hearings, several advocates, like Rajiv                  Atma Ram, K.T.S. Tulsi, R.T.P.S.Tulsi, H.S. Phoolka,                  D.S.Patwalia, Anupam Gupta, Chetan Mittal, Gurminder Singh, Dr                  M.S. Rahi, Deepak Sibal and Navkiran Singh pleaded the case.


 3 June  2009


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## Ozarks (Sep 6, 2009)

It would seem that the Sikh community at large is happy with having committees and legal bodies telling them what they want to hear. People who take a part of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib 

रोम रोम महि बसहि मुरारि ॥
Rom rom mėh basėh murār.
and on each and every hair, the Lord abides.

and treats allegorical thought as literal and law. Building division and dissention to the point that what is meant to be a universal, unifying approach to the divine becomes so quarrelsome and bogged down that it suffocates itself and wonders what happened. There seems to be a group within the sphere of Sikhism who would rather mourn their martyrs than to celebrate their lives and the universality of the liberating faith that they helped found. 
The Siri Guru Granth Sahib also says
ਕਬੀਰ  ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ  ਇਕ  ਸਿਉ  ਕੀਏ  ਆਨ  ਦੁਬਿਧਾ  ਜਾਇ  ॥ 
 Kabīr parīṯ ik si▫o kī▫e ān ḏubiḏẖā jā▫e. 
 Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart. 
 ਭਾਵੈ  ਲਾਂਬੇ  ਕੇਸ  ਕਰੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਘਰਰਿ  ਮੁਡਾਇ  ॥੨੫॥ 
 Bẖāvai lāŉbe kes kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā▫e. ||25|| 
 You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25|| 

Yet duality and alienation seem to be part and parcel with some. With whom do you suppose the Guru Nanak Ji would sit with and call brother those who would sit in judgment wrapped in their 5 K's as if jewels or with those who seek Waheguru focusing their lives on that relationship yet haven't even one "K" on them?
or perhaps my understanding is amiss.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Sep 6, 2009)

Dear Ozark Ji,

IMHO your understanding is correct spiritually but not politically in this age. There will always be some tension between those committed to finding the truth about code of conduct in a reasonably understanding way in the present and those with inherited understanding, who wants to preserve their blind religious way. This challenge has to be dealt with human maturity in a constructive and creative way with the younger generation in Diaspora, who will not blindly accept the present code of conduct established in 1945.

ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਸਿ ਰਹੇ ॥ ਭੇਖੁ ਭਵਨੀ ਹਠੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਗਹਿ ਰਹੇ ॥
_Mai avar gi*ān na __ḏẖi*ān pūjā har nām an__ṯar vas rahė. B__ẖėk__ẖ b__ẖavnī ha__ṯẖ na jānā nānkā sac__ẖ geh rahė. _

I have no other spiritual wisdom, meditation or worship; the Name of the Akal Purkh alone dwells deep within me. I know nothing about religious robes, pilgrimages or stubborn fanaticism; O Nanak, I hold tight to the Truth. 
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 844-1


The rest of the article can be read at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24312-sikh-symbols.html


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## Admin (Sep 6, 2009)

Ambers said:


> I have not seen it stated but I think an uncut beard could serve as a constant reminder of ones commitment or faith.  I cannot think of any hair more itchy and irritating than an unruly moustache or beard. Elegant as it may be.


Dear Ambers, i am in an unknown territory because i simply do know how it feels after shaving... :whisling: but i think i can still reply to your question, practically... :ice: My apologies if it hurts anybody's sentiments... but practicality is what Sikhi all about... 

Now, please tell me what is the purpose of all those endless range of _*after shave lotions that flood the market*_? People use them to keep their shaved skin areas cool and calm and free from irritation... This irritation is caused each time you shave... So to say that irritation or itching is only caused by keeping hair is an uneducated comment. 

And if you are really not in a mischief mood, then what you are talking about is one-time   small amount of timeframe when you try to grow your hair back after years of constant shaving and using _*after shaves*_ to control the irritation and itching *each time you shave* and then when you allow them to  grow and they are like less than one inch or something and they are stiff and hard and create irritation to the skin because of their rough edges. But all that is soon gone when they have reasonably grown and your doubts are gone and as your love for the Guru takes a prime seat in your life...  

Dear Ambers, you can count on me,  I, as a Sikh born into Sikh faith by birth and who has  never ever trimmed my huge beard... :yes:, has never ever felt any irritation and itching while taking care of them and nurturing them.

As far as asking questions like it is no where mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib to keep hair or all, i always present is very simple anology to deal with such an argument...

*A simple analogy:

Do we consider Adi Granth Sahib ji as the eternal Guru of Sikhs? if yes, then we follow what Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked us do.

Do we consider Guru Gobind Singh ji as Sikh Guru? if yes, then we follow Him/His Orders/His commandment or we not? 

Do we consider 5Ks as the Order of Guru Gobind Singh ji? if not, then we do not consider Guru Gobind Singh Ji as our Guru/Master.

And, if we do not consider Guru Gobind Singh ji as our Guru?  then we do not consider Guru Granth Sahib ji as our Guru as it was Guru Gobind Singh ji who ordained Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji the only Sikh Guru.

Can we be pick and choosy? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 6, 2009)

Aman ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said. No one could have expressed it better.

Thank you very much for this.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 6, 2009)

Ozark ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> It would seem that the Sikh community at large is happy with having committees and legal bodies telling them what they want to hear. People who take a part of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib
> 
> रोम रोम महि बसहि मुरारि ॥
> *Rom rom mėh basėh murār.
> ...


First of all *Rom, Rom* means each pore. All humans have pores but not all humans have hair sprouting out from their pores. What happens when one becomes totally bald? Does that mean Ik Ong Kaar stops "residing" on the bald spots, the Creative Energy that is omnipresent?

Hence, your analysis above is misguided and  very subjective and seems to have some hidden agenda which you should try to express in an honest manner as you claim to love Sikhi way of life.

*The Siri Guru Granth Sahib also says
*


> *ਕਬੀਰ  ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ  ਇਕ  ਸਿਉ  ਕੀਏ  ਆਨ  ਦੁਬਿਧਾ  ਜਾਇ  ॥
> Kabīr parīṯ ik si▫o kī▫e ān ḏubiḏẖā jā▫e.
> Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
> ਭਾਵੈ  ਲਾਂਬੇ  ਕੇਸ  ਕਰੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਘਰਰਿ  ਮੁਡਾਇ  ॥੨੫॥
> ...


What do you understand by the above Shabad ? Who do you think Kabir ji was talking to? Please express it in your own words.



> Yet duality and alienation seem to be part and parcel with some. With whom do you suppose the Guru Nanak Ji would sit with and call brother those who would sit in judgment wrapped in their 5 K's as if jewels or with those who seek Waheguru focusing their lives on that relationship yet haven't even one "K" on them?
> or perhaps my understanding is amiss.


It seems that you are implying that all those who wear 5k's as their jewels and pass judgment on others than the ones who do not have any k's. 

Interesting prejudgment on your part to say the least and a bit arrogant too as you are pretending to play Guru Nanak. One wonders why!?

How many people like that have you met? Please share your experiences with them that made you reach this conclusion or is it founded on your own personal bias?


Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ozarks (Sep 6, 2009)

Aman Singh Ji,
If I may ask about some of your points...*

"Do we consider Adi Granth Sahib ji as the eternal Guru of Sikhs? if yes, then we follow what Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked us do."

*Does Siri Guru Granth Sahib talk of the Khalsa? The only place I can find it is here:

कहु कबीर जन भए खालसे प्रेम भगति जिह जानी ॥४॥३॥ 
Kaho Kabīr jan bẖa▫e kẖālse parem bẖagaṯ jih jānī. ||4||3|| 
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3|| 

Which would seem to say that those who lovingly worship God are Khalsa.
* 
"Do we consider Guru Gobind Singh ji as Sikh Guru? if yes, then we follow Him/His Orders/His commandment or we not? 

Do we consider 5Ks as the Order of Guru Gobind Singh ji? if not, then we do not consider Guru Gobind Singh Ji as our Guru/Master."

*It is my understanding that when Guru Gobind Singh Ji formed the Khalsa not everyone joined. I have failed to find where he said that they were not Sikh or sent those who did not join away. I have read several places where it appeared the two terms were used almost interchangeably, however only while in the Khalsa's company. Perhaps so as to bear in mind that they were a part of Sikhism and not a part from it. 
I understand the formation of the Khalsa. _http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1194578/masand_Guru Gobind Singh ji had lost his father to Aurangzeb. Many of the  masands (who had been placed in charge of the defined sangats) had become quarrelsome or corrupt. This helped break that power and the presence of the Khalsa became an instrument of ahimsa except in dire circumstance. But to completely change the entire sangat from desperate times come desperate measures to be sure, but to change it so radically from what the previous Gurus lived and died for? I think he knew what he did and out of concern for what else might take place he put the Siri Guru Granth Sahib in charge. As he was the Guru in charge in his time the Siri Guru Granth Sahib is in charge in ours. It is the final word and it seems to be silent on the need of the Five K's. To look outside of it would be to ignore its position as the presiding Guru of the Sikhs.
Of course, this is just my opinion. A humble follower of the Creator by whatever name you choose.


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## Ozarks (Sep 6, 2009)

Tejwant Singh Ji,

_"First of all *Rom, Rom* means each pore. All humans have pores but not all humans have hair sprouting out from their pores. What happens when one becomes totally bald? Does that mean Ik Ong Kaar stops "residing" on the bald spots, the Creative Energy that is omnipresent?"

_Not at all. I must admit to requiring a translation so the quote I posted (the 'Rom, Rom' one) is not of my translation. I agree though, the "every hair" approach is allegorical and not mine. 

_"Hence, your analysis above is misguided and  very subjective and seems to have some hidden agenda which you should try to express in an honest manner as you claim to love Sikhi way of life._"

Misguide, perhaps in translation, but I seek wisdom and posit ideas and questions. No more than that. I love much of the Sikh wisdom I have learned. So much so it is hard to see some of the conflict that takes place over trivial or egotistical issues.

_"It seems that you are implying that all those who wear 5k's as their jewels and pass judgment on others than the one who do not have any k's."
_
That was actually in reference to this link to were I was directed on page 2 of this thread.

_"Interesting prejudgment on your part to say the least and a bit arrogant too as you are pretending to play Guru Nanak. One wonders why!?_"

Mine is not to pass judgment, as I did not, I just ask questions. Perhaps you feel as I do and think that Guru Nanak Ji would sit among both and not see a difference unless their action dictated a different response from him.

_"How many people like that have you met? Please share your experiences with them that made you reach this conclusion or is it founded on your own personal bias?_"

Like what? Who say who is or who is not a Sikh? Just what I have read. No Sikhs (that I can find) live near here. Unless you would count me, which I don't know that you would. Not a judgment issue, I really don't know if you would is all. The nearest Gurdwara is over 3 hours away. So here is the place I go to learn and toss around questions and ideas. My understanding of Sikhism may not be perfect, but I am always will and eager to learn.
Sat Nam


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 6, 2009)

Ozark ji,

Guru Fateh.

My post:
_"First of all *Rom, Rom* means each pore. All humans have pores but not all humans have hair sprouting out from their pores. What happens when one becomes totally bald? Does that mean Ik Ong Kaar stops "residing" on the bald spots, the Creative Energy that is omnipresent?"

_Your response





> Not at all. I must admit to requiring a translation so the quote I posted (the 'Rom, Rom' one) is not of my translation. I agree though, the "every hair" approach is allegorical and not mine.


But you did look for the  translations as the ends to your means to prove some kind of point rather than the other way around. 

The same thing or if one can call it a trick is applied by you when you found KHALIS in Kabir ji's salok to your response to Aman ji to prove your own conclusion. Yet, under the same token, you failed to respond to my questions about Kabir ji's salok that you posted in your post.

One wonders why this selective posting if you claim to ask questions! It seems you  find your own answers first as the ends then you want to justify the means by choosing selective parts of Gurbani. Your posts state that quite nitedly.


My post:
_"Hence, your analysis above is misguided and  very subjective and seems to have some hidden agenda which you should try to express in an honest manner as you claim to love Sikhi way of life._"

Your response:



> Misguide, perhaps in translation, but I seek wisdom and posit ideas and questions. No more than that. I love much of the Sikh wisdom I have learned. So much so it is hard to see some of the conflict that takes place over trivial or egotistical issues.


I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you seek wisdom, then if that  were to be true then why jump to your own conclusions as you have done in the post? It seems self contradictory.

My post

_"It seems that you are implying that all those who wear 5k's as their jewels and pass judgment on others than the one who do not have any k's."
_
Your response:


> That was actually in reference to this link to were I was directed on page 2 of this thread.


*Error 404: Page Not Found*


Ozark ji, But still your implication is unfounded and laced with bias.

My post:
_
"Interesting prejudgment on your part to say the least and a bit arrogant too as you are pretending to play Guru Nanak. One wonders why!?_"

Your response:



> Mine is not to pass judgment, as I did not, I just ask questions. Perhaps you feel as I do and think that Guru Nanak Ji would sit among both and not see a difference unless their action dictated a different response from him.


Let me post your initial post again.



> Yet duality and alienation seem to be part and parcel with some. With whom do you suppose the Guru Nanak Ji *would sit with and call brother those who would sit in judgment wrapped in their 5 K's as if jewels *or with those who seek Waheguru focusing their lives on that relationship yet haven't even one "K" on them?


Of course it is passing judgment on all those who wear 5k's by implying that all of them judge others and look down on non- Sikhs who do not wear any k's.

 Do you mean  it is famine or feast? One wonders why you did not take those into consideration who keep their unshorn hair and yet not taken kandei di pahul which again shows your intentions of justifying your conclusions with the subjective means.You at no point talked about their deeds in your initial post.

My post:

_"How many people like that have you met? Please share your experiences with them that made you reach this conclusion or is it founded on your own personal bias?_"

Your response:



> Like what? Who say who is or who is not a Sikh? Just what I have read. No Sikhs (that I can find) live near here. Unless you would count me, which I don't know that you would. Not a judgment issue, I really don't know if you would is all. The nearest Gurdwara is over 3 hours away. So here is the place I go to learn and toss around questions and ideas. My understanding of Sikhism may not be perfect, but I am always will and eager to learn.


What I asked you was that if you had met any Amritdhari Sikhs in your life who have ill treated you for some reasons and flaunted their 5K's in an arrogant fashion to you for you to come to the conclusions that you have expressed in your post.

Anyway,thanks for proving my point. Your judgment is simply based on some preconceived notions rather than any personal experience with Sadh Sangat at any congregation or meeting and sharing what you have to offer with some Sikh families in person.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2009)

Many thanks Tejwant ji for incisive analysis once again! I have decided to close this thread and give you the last word in so doing.

The thread began with a fair question and one which can be answered through a thoughtful and reflective study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. No such thing happened. As the thread developed one or more professed non-Sikhs took on the task of lecturing the SPN forum, instead of asking sincere questions.

A number of troubling developments ensued. The thread began to look like a apologia for counterbalancing  the sehajdhari path against that of keshdhari and amritdhari Sikhs. I was fooled. There are a number of false dichotomies that are lurking in the background, such as the notion that banee and bana can be considered as distinct options. Or that the jyote and the insights that follow from Guru Nanak are different from the those of Guru Gobind Singh. 

Equally troubling is the continued use of verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj  to "prove" the thesis of individuals who are not even Sikhs but presume to lecture the forum audience regarding truths and fallacies, and to challenge fundamental concepts, or give a personal spin to their importance.

It is my obligation to note that we do not do Sikhism any justice if we harvest verses in order to demonstrate that our opinions are suported by Gurbani. It is from Gurbani that our thinking should be *re*fashioned. It is also regrettable that verses are being taken out of the context of shabads to prove points that are not gurmat but opinions of their authors. This is a sure sign that the thread has taken off in a manmukh direction and is full of inaccuracies and misapprehensions.


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