# Polygamy And Sikhism



## Neutral Singh (Aug 13, 2004)

*Polygamy and Sikhism*

Polygamy is wide spread among different cultures of the world. According to one study out of '853' cultures only 16 percent stipulate monogamy. Historically most of the Sikh kings practiced polygamy in 18th and 19th centuary. The Guru Amar Dass ji has clearly defined that conjugal relationship has to be two bodies and one soul phenomenon. It vividly conforms to the monogamy idealism.

It appears very paradoxical and enigmatic to a student of Sikh history when one confronts the practice of polygamy by some Sikh Gurus. Historically the following Gurus had more than one wife. 
*** Please Note :: The authenticity of historical accounts is debatable in these case as even today we can see people like ex-education minister of India, Murli Manohar Joshi, who simply erased the full chapters on Sikhism in history books of School children and also demeaned the martyardom of Guru Teg Bahadur Ji... So, dont get fooled by historical accounts. ***

1. Guru Arjan Dev.

Wives
- Ram Deyi, daughter of Surri Khatri (Charan Dass) of village Mour married year Bik 1622. Guruji was 11 years old at that
time Guru Amar Dass was on Guru Gaddi. (Ref. DR. Gopal Singh, Kesar Singh Chibbar, Mohinder Kaur Gill) 
*** It is a controversial issue among the Sikh historians 
- Ganga devi

2. Guru Hargobind 

Wives
- Damodri Devi
- Nanki Devi
- Maha Devi

3. Guru Hari Rai 

Wives
- Prem Kaur
- Chand Kaur
- Anokhi Devi
- Ram Kaur 
- Laddli
- Krishan Kaur
- Kalyani

4. Guru Gobind Singh

Wives
- Sahib Kaur Ji
- Jeeto Rani
- Sundri Devi

Many causes about the practice of polygamy among the humans have been sited by eminent scholars... 

Helen Fisher states that men seek polygamy to spread their genes while women join harems to acquire resources and ensure the survival of their young. Polygamy enables men to have more children. Most of the scientific evidence stacks up in favor of monogamy. Desmond Morris summarised the explanations by saying that the pair bonding is a trademark of humans.

But, even then the question arises, why Some Gurus did practice it?

Most of Sikh scholars never touch the subject probably due to the divinity and spirituality associated with Sikh Gurus. 
Very few explanations have been given which can be summarised as such...

1. It was the Divine will.

2. One should not raise the issue as they were super humans and their life incidents are beyond the comprehension of commoners.

3. With improved economy of Guru Ghars, the Gurus could afford multiple marriages...

Spirituality, Awarness, Enlightment has nothing to do with polygamy, monogamy, hetrosexuality and homosextuality. This state of being is above and beyond all this. 



Guru Amar Dass Ji thus said 

bhu ByK kir BrmweIAY min ihrdY kptu kmwie ] (26-13, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
People wear all sorts of costumes and wander all around, but in their hearts and minds, they practice deception.

hir kw mhlu n pwveI mir ivstw mwih smwie ]1] (26-14, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
They do not attain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, and after death, they sink into manure. ||1||

mn ry igRh hI mwih audwsu ] (26-14, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
O mind, remain detached in the midst of your household.

scu sMjmu krxI so kry gurmuiK hoie prgwsu ]1] rhwau ] (26-15, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
Practicing truth, self-discipline and good deeds, the Gurmukh is enlightened. ||1||Pause||

gur kY sbid mnu jIiqAw giq mukiq GrY mih pwie ] (26-15, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is conquered, and one attains the State of Liberation in one's own home.

hir kw nwmu iDAweIAY sqsMgiq myil imlwie ]2] (26-16, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
So meditate on the Name of the Lord; join and merge with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||2||

jy lK iesqrIAw Bog krih nv KMf rwju kmwih ] (26-16, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
*You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.*

ibnu siqgur suKu n pwveI iPir iPir jonI pwih ]3] (26-17, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
But without the True Guru, you will not find peace; you will be reincarnated over and over again. ||3||

hir hwru kMiT ijnI pihirAw gur crxI icqu lwie ] (26-18, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
Those who wear the Necklace of the Lord around their necks, and focus their consciousness on the Guru's Feet

iqnw ipCY iriD isiD iPrY Enw iqlu n qmwie ]4] (26-18, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
-wealth and supernatural spiritual powers follow them, but they do not care for such things at all. ||4||

jo pRB BwvY so QIAY Avru n krxw jwie ] (26-19, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
Whatever pleases God's Will comes to pass. Nothing else can be done.

jnu nwnku jIvY nwmu lY hir dyvhu shij suBwie ]5]2]35] (26-19, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
Servant Nanak lives by chanting the Naam. O Lord, please give it to me, in Your Natural Way. ||5||2||35||


Guru Arjan Dev ji also said... 

Awsw mhlw 5 ] (385-1)
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

pwvqu rlIAw jobin blIAw ] (385-1, Awsw, mhlw 5)
The mortal revels in joy, in the vigor of youth;

nwm ibnw mwtI sMig rlIAw ]1] (385-1, Awsw, mhlw 5)
but without the Name, he mingles with dust. ||1||

kwn kuMflIAw bsqR EFlIAw ] (385-2, Awsw, mhlw 5)
He may wear ear-rings and fine clothes,

syj suKlIAw min grblIAw ]1] rhwau ] (385-2, Awsw, mhlw 5)
and have a comfortable bed, and his mind may be so proud. ||1||Pause||

qlY kuMcrIAw isir kink CqrIAw ] (385-3, Awsw, mhlw 5)
He may have elephants to ride, and golden umbrellas over his head;

hir Bgiq ibnw ly Drin gflIAw ]2] (385-3, Awsw, mhlw 5)
but without devotional worship to the Lord, he is buried beneath the dirt. ||2||

rUp suMdrIAw Aink iesqrIAw ] (385-4, Awsw, mhlw 5)
*He may enjoy many women, of exquisite beauty;*

hir rs ibnu siB suAwd iPkrIAw ]3] (385-4, Awsw, mhlw 5)
but without the sublime essence of the Lord, all tastes are tasteless. ||3||

mwieAw ClIAw ibkwr ibKlIAw ] (385-4, Awsw, mhlw 5)
Deluded by Maya, the mortal is led into sin and corruption.

srix nwnk pRB purK dieAlIAw ]4]4]55] (385-5, Awsw, mhlw 5)
Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of God, the All-powerful, Compassionate Lord. ||4||4||55||

*What do Sikhs think about Polygamy ?*


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 1, 2004)

*What do Sikhs think about Polygamy ?*


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## Arvind (Sep 1, 2004)

As per my gut feelings, I go for monogamy to ensure undivided love, dedication and everything. Well, once one reaches the state of Guru jis, they might make an issue of polygamy (to have more). Being a Gursikh is so difficult, forget being a Guru.

Just a thought.


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## BabbarSher (Oct 15, 2004)

Dear Neutral Singh

Can you please elaborate upon the Sources for the multiple marriages of the Gurus? 

In my view sikhism advocates Monogamy

1. Bhai Gurdass Ji's Vaar is one proof to this: 
"Eka nari jati hoi par nari dhi bhain vakhanai."

2. A great Sikh General Hari Singh Nalua, was famous for his bravery and battle strategies. He was the only one in history who could rule over Kabul (Afghanistan) after defeating the Pathans. One Afghan princes got so enamored by his bravery that she some how succeeded in organizing a secret meeting with the General Hari Singh Nalua. On meeting him face to face she expressed her desire to marry him but the Sikh General refused the proposal by telling her that he is already married and as per his Guru’s commandments a Sikh cannot marry two women at the same time. After the refusal of her proposal the princes took a promise from the Sikh General that if he cannot marry her then he must not say no to her second proposal. When the general gave her his promise not to disappoint her the second time, then she asked him that she wants to have a brave son like him. The Sikh General thought for a moment and then fulfilled his promise and said “if you want a son like me then from now onwards I am your son” and he touched her feet pronouncing her his mother. This is an unparallel historical example of the character of a Sikh General not too easily found elsewhere in the history of the world.

(Taken from www.sikhfilms.com with Thanks)

Akal Sahai


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## Neutral Singh (Oct 18, 2004)

I hope you know a person called Bahadur Singh... The following is reply by him to my above post... Any observations by you would be gr8 to this discussion. Please support your logics with historical validations so that doubts are cleared.

Regards 



> With all due respect sikhphilosophy!
> It is a very known fact to all real puratan SIkh scholars that polygamy is allowed not only for our beloved Gurus but also for Sikhs who have the maturity and ability to do so! Polygamy does exist among normal Sikhs even though it is rare and it is in no way condemned by Sikhi.
> 
> If polygamy was the absolute norm in SIkhi, as you say, Guru Gobind SIngh would not have had 3 wives otherwise our Guru would have contradicted his own teachings. He would not have accepted his Sikhs wish to have their daughters married as he says in Bachitar Natak: It is the Rahit that is dear to me not the Sikh!!! If polygamy was against rahit Guru Gobind SIngh would have been monogamous which he wasn't!!!In Charitropakhyan there are plenty of cases of polygamy that are not condemned. Sikhi does hence allow polygamy as long as all wives are treated equally and fairly.
> ...


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## BabbarSher (Oct 21, 2004)

Dear Neutral: 

Bahadur singh is a person with Jazba..which is right, but I think he goes overboard quite frequently. 

NOTE: If Polygamy is allowed, by the rule of equality Polyandry should also be allowed. I wonder if Bahadur Singh is willing to justify that? 

My Response is after >>>>>>>>

If polygamy was the absolute norm in SIkhi, as you say, Guru Gobind SIngh would not have had 3 wives otherwise our Guru would have contradicted his own teachings. He would not have accepted his Sikhs wish to have their daughters married as he says in Bachitar Natak: It is the Rahit that is dear to me not the Sikh!!! If polygamy was against rahit Guru Gobind SIngh would have been monogamous which he wasn't!!!In Charitropakhyan there are plenty of cases of polygamy that are not condemned. Sikhi does hence allow polygamy as long as all wives are treated equally and fairly. 

>>>>>>>>the whole response is based on the false premise that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was married twice. (my friend here mentions 3, hence taking it 1 marriage further than what some historians say). The point is that Guru Maharaj never married twice. 

The simple reason for two names is that sometimes when a girl is married, her name in Susraal is different from the one in Paike Ghar. 

I know of people who have 2 names - one for Peke Ghar and one for Suhre. 

>>>>>>>>The reference is being made to CharitroPakhyan:my friend Bahadur Singh says that polygamy is mentioned in Charitro and since it is not condemned in Charitro..it is allowable in Gurbani. 

1. CharitroPakhyan is not Gurbaani 

2. CharitroPakhyan does not even qualify as a historical document as there are many historical fallacies. 

3. Even if for a split second I admit that it is writing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, just saying that since monogamy is mentioned and is not condemned so it is justified is a lame excuse. 

Going by the same standard Charitro mentions, hair removal creams, Bhang, Afeem etc. and does not condemn their use...? 

>>>>>>>>What does this imply? going by Bahdur Singh's deduction. 



Your argument about the Guru Gobind SIngh only marrying once is, I am afraid an utter insult to our Gurus. All the pre-British Sikh sources (such as Gurbiulas Patshahi 10,Chaupa SIngh Rahitnama, Banmsavali nama, Suraj Prakash Granth and Panth Prakash) mention the fact that Guru Gobind SIngh had three wives. All of these authors were Sikhs from the traditional orders created by SIkh Gurus themselves. All the real scholars from the puratan sampradayas (Nihang, Nirmale, Udasi and Sevapanthi) agree that our belove Guru Gobind Singh had three wives.

>>>>>>>>Firstly, since Bahdur Singh is learned in all the above texts, he need to point out the page number and the line number where such proofs are provided by the authors. 

>>>>>>>>Secondly, all the above writings are not of Samkaleen writers of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? 

>>>>>>>>Thirdly they are themselves error prone not only on this aspect but also on many Gurmat aspects. 

>>>>>>>>Fourth, Over the years they have been susceptible to additions from a number sources. 


1.These three wives have their own samadhs. How could one single person have three samadhs?

>>>>>>>>Who built these Samadhis? And is building a smadhi according to Gurmat? What is the purpose of building a samadhi and what does Guru Gobind Singh Ji say about those who belive in amris and Mats. 

Also why does sikhi belive in cremation and not burrying the bodies. 

2.The relics of these three wives are conserved and their places of birth and families have been recorded in Sikh historiographical writings.

>>>>>>>>Please detail 

3. The Mughal sources clearly mention Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan who lived simultaneously in Delhi in different houses!

>>>>>>>>I would need to see the names and the exact quotes. Funny why the mughal sources dont mention about the third wife.

4. Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan wrote hukam namas and the handwriting on them is different. 

>>>>>>>>Most of the Hukamnamsa available to the sikhs are not authentic. Hence this is not a conclusive proof. 

Your arguments are based on pure imagination. Mine are based on sure historical sources. 

>>>>>>>>"SURE" is the word.... !!! You talk about histroy yet you so easily neglect Bhai Gurdas Ji's Baani. 

The problem with you Neo-Sikhs is that they have taken Protestantism and Victorian values as role models trying to prove that SIkhi is compatible with middle class culture!

>>>>>>>>And the problem with you is that you are so much affected by the muslim shia way of life that you spend your nights dreaming about similarities. 


It is indeed a shame that so-called Sikhs roam around spreading lies about our beloved Gurus. 

Y>>>>>>>>es. thats what we worry about. A person who calls other sikhs, so-called sikhs.. should judge himself first. 

My advoce to you sikhphilosophy: study Sikhi properly before you criticise other religions because it seems you have a lot to learn still. I can't believe you actually have the guts to spread such lies about our Gurus. This is utterly disgusting! 

>>>>>>>>where did other religions come into picture. Please Bahadur Singh.. for a moment think of a sikhi as a religion separate and unique and dont try and find similarities between each aspect of sikhi and shia... 


Akal Sahai


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## Platinum007 (Jan 17, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> *What do Sikhs think about Polygamy ?*


I'm not sikh, but my grandfather was.. and he had more then one wife.. 

Personaly i think its perfectly fine to engage in a polygamy life style

My reasons?
By nature men are providers, if a women has no where to go it is our (a mans) duty to provide for some for them

I beleive men have the ability to love more then one women, and treat both equaly

What if there is a women living on the streets with a single child and no money?.. some times these women are foced into selling there bodies to provide.. rather men can do the honorable duty by helping.

Obvously women are more independ now, but in the past being a independed women was next to impossible.

In modern day I still beleive its "okay" to have more then one wife since in some cases some people (men and women) don't have the ability to be independent.

now that i've said that i'm sure some women are thinking so "why can't women have more then one husband" 
here is why, will your child know who the father is? and study has shown it has phycological effects even if they know who the father is in such cases.


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## drkhalsa (Jan 19, 2005)

> I'm not sikh, but my grandfather was.. and he had more then one wife..
> 
> Personaly i think its perfectly fine to engage in a polygamy life style
> 
> ...



1 by nature men are provider

2 women living on street 

3 women were not independent in past 

Your all assertion and reason belong s to medivial and possibaly stone age culture this is not the case I think is in world we are living in so if islam wants to preserve these expects of living and culture till date ( as you think) then obviously they are doing blunder and are not right as I think and believe .  if you want to preserve something of the religion than its message should be preserved not the rituals ( as according to sikhism ) if you cant preserve a meesage without its adjunct like these old rituals then offcourse the problem is with your understanding of the message 

now the second thing 



> I beleive men have the ability to love more then one women, and treat both equaly




I respect your belief but they almost absolutely wrong in wake of present understanding of science and Psychology 

Man is the weaker member of human species in respect to survive emotional and any kind of pysical stress in life 

about sexual performance Single women can satifactoraly have satisfying sexual relation with more than one man as her biological setup is made like that .so in practicle situation it is impossible for a man to satisfy two women sexualy while this is no problem for women to even have relation with more than one man and all this is not which I believe this well known hard facts you can confirm with any sextherapist or a doctor as this is very clear issue .


by saying all this i don t want to claim that polygamy is right or wrong what I am saying is that the reason for male polygamy you are giving is childish in my view and who ever every body on this planet agrees for polygamy than womwn will be more fit candidate for polygamy 


> now that i've said that i'm sure some women are thinking so "why can't women have more then one husband"
> here is why, will your child know who the father is? and study has shown it has phycological effects even if they know who the father is in such cases





O dear as I told it is not a stoneage if you want to go for female poly gamy science has devised 100% accurate test to tell you who your father is and offcourse in case of male poly gamy also it will great help as you never know who is father  for sure


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

> Your all assertion and reason belong s to medivial and possibaly stone age culture this is not the case I think is in world we are living in so if islam wants to preserve these expects of living and culture till date ( as you think) then obviously they are doing blunder and are not right as I think and believe . if you want to preserve something of the religion than its message should be preserved not the rituals ( as according to sikhism ) if you cant preserve a meesage without its adjunct like these old rituals then offcourse the problem is with your understanding of the message


yes, they are medivial... i was refering to such times..not in all aspects was I refering to today.. Obviously women are more independent now, but who NOT every women is....It was very normal at the time to marry more then one wife Islam only LIMITED polygamy to 4 wifes during those times, the Qu'ran stated it during that PERIOD since many men where marrying much more then 20 wifes at a time, and where not able to satisfy the needs of all of these women, I highly doubt ANY man can take care of even 10 wifes.. but if you study history you'll know that many men where marrying as much women (take king solomon as an example). .. its not recommended in Islam to marry more then one, but if it comes down to it 4 is the maximum for those reasons i just provided above. (Also consider the fact that hardly any men in islamic countries are even practicing polygamy anymore other then the "royals" who seem to abuse and take advantage of everything and call themselfs "muslims")Read up on history and the religion under a positive light, maybe you'll learn something new. Also many other cultures in today societies still marry more then one female.



> about sexual performance Single women can satifactoraly have satisfying sexual relation with more than one man as her biological setup is made like that .so in practicle situation it is impossible for a man to satisfy two women sexualy while this is no problem for women to even have relation with more than one man and all this is not which I believe this well known hard facts you can confirm with any sextherapist or a doctor as this is very clear issue .


Unless your talking about a female able to sexual satisfy two men AT THE SAME TIME. then i can see your point.. but, it seems by NATURE men have a tendancy to sexually satisfy more then one women at a time. Find a web site and see the number of male cheaters in comparison to female to cheaters... the fact that most of these women cheat is because they are not in "right" relationship (sex is excluded)..and want a different type of romance.. but are to weak or will eventually leave their current relationship.. as for men MOST of the times its simply because they want another female. This all leads to the old "stone age" nature your thinking of (maybe God intended it to be) of men who want multiple women to bare them many children and be able to plant there "seed" in many areas as possible so they can multiple offsprings, it works at a subconctions level.



> by saying all this i don t want to claim that polygamy is right or wrong what I am saying is that the reason for male polygamy you are giving is childish in my view and who ever every body on this planet agrees for polygamy than womwn will be more fit candidate for polygamy


women more fit candidate?... if you have ever studied sociology, you will learn that by nature women don't think in a linear logical fashion like men yet females by nature think in a intiution style..hense the reason why women don't opt to study being a airplane poilet, engineering... etc etc.. sure you'll find a few but even in this liberal western society women STILL dont' choose to study in such fields, just to prove my point as to how women think.

If women think such a way they obviously won't be the BEST candidate for polygamy. Even in a modern day society women will NOT emotionally be able to handle a mere two husbands (if THAT works)... Other cultures even in todays society practice polygamy (excluding muslim countries, which hardly even practice polygamy anymore) but many african tribes do and they work out fine... some MUCH older cultures DID have polygamy for women and lets just it didnt' work out that well 
We both can probalby agree women are much more emotional then men, genernally speaking their emotions can swing from one end to another.. So how will a women be able to handling working a job, raising kids, and please more then one man?... If u take into factor that womens incomes are lower in Canada/America its NOT ALWAYS because they are paid less, since 1996 female/male income gap has closed to a very satisfying level for women, yet in 2004 womens incomes where STILL less then there male counterpart... WHY?.. women generally don't work as MANY HOURS a week as men do, the reasons basically fall into stone age time. I'm sure u can figure that one our yourself 



> O dear as I told it is not a stoneage if you want to go for female poly gamy science has devised 100% accurate test to tell you who your father is and offcourse in case of male poly gamy also it will great help as you never know who is father for sure


of course, your right!  but i beleive you over looked something... EVEN if a child did find out who is father is from a group of 2-8 men (through DNA testing) for example it is more emotionally stressful, and pchybologially destress on the child as it would be the other way around. 

Also biologically speaking women can carry disease in there genital area more easly COMPARED to men.. so the spead of a virus is MORE liken to happen when a female takes on a polygamy life style.

Your right when you exclude SOME "stone age" ideas, but remember at the core of things humans will be humans and human NATURE rarely changes in ways your thinking.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

future more, 
women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children, which leads them not able to work as many hours as men.. making them more dependent to a certain degree, YES it could go the other way around too... but generally speaking this is how its always been, and by nature how females are.

If you look at modern day society you will see that many women are drawn to a wealthy man (provider) and would care less if that man has a wife...so some women today just into pural marages with both arms and legs without thinking of a males first wife. (it CAN happen the other way aroud, but it does so seldomly)

if you look at history, and the highly respectful Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind, Guru Hari Rai, and Guru Gobind Singh all had more then one wife, In todays society it seems almost like second nature to SOME women not to care if a weathly man has already has a wife.

Over all, your points do sound fine, i've also at some points took the side of female polygamy since i don't like to keep a closed mind to one side.. but after considering both sides with an open mind males have MORE MERIT, and have different


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

future more, 
women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children, which leads them not able to work as many hours as men.. making them more dependent to a certain degree, YES it could go the other way around too... but generally speaking this is how its always been, and by nature how females are.

If you look at modern day society you will see that many women are drawn to a wealthy man (provider) and would care less if that man has a wife...so some women today jump into pural marages with both arms and legs without thinking of a males first wife. IF it does happen the other way around in MOST AND MANY cases the male is there for only one reason and doesn't care about starting a relationship.. 

if you look at history, and the highly respectful Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind, Guru Hari Rai, and Guru Gobind Singh all had more then one wife, In todays society it seems almost like second nature to SOME women not to care if a weathly man has already has a wife.

Over all, your points do sound fine, i've also at some points took the side of female polygamy since i don't like to keep a closed mind to one side.. but after considering both sides with an open mind males have MORE MERIT, and have different QUALITIES that women don't that let males be more succesful in polagamy, if it wasn't so the great successful AND WISE men of our history wouldn't have done it. Take into consideration some of the very respectful Guru's did it.


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## nsbuttar (Jan 28, 2005)

Aman Singh's initial post comes from here http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/0/F4F0F76A8D1D5F5B872565C8004DAF6F?OpenDocument
(Just a request, please provide the source of your information. It helps a lot, thx)


Now the question of 2/3 Wives of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. (Yes, guyz some cronicals do reflect 3 wives of Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji) But the explaination comes right here.

====================================================================================
Article taken from this book.
Encyclopedia of Sikhism edited by Harbans Singh ji.
NOTE: (based on the following results on the research by Dr. Gurbaksh Singh ji

The wrong impression that the Guru had more than one wife was created by those writers who were ignorant of Punjabi culture. Later authors accepted those writings indicating more than one marriage of the Guru and presented it as a royal act. During those days kings, chiefs, and other important people usually had more than one wife as a symbol of their being great and superior to the common man. Guru Gobind Singh, being a true king, was justified in their eyes to have had more than one wife. This is actually incorrect. In Punjab, there are two and sometimes three big functions connected with marriage, i.e., engagement, wedding, and Muklawa. Big gatherings and singings are held at all these three functions. In many cases, the engagement was held as soon as the person had passed the infant stage. Even today engagements at 8 to 12 years of age are not uncommon in some interior parts of India. The wedding is performed a couple of years after the engagement. After the wedding, it takes another couple of years for the bride to move in with her in laws and live there. This is called Muklawa. A dowry and other gifts to the bride are usually given at this time of this ceremony to help her to establish a new home. Now, the wedding and Muklawa are performed on the same day and only when the partners are adults.

A big befitting function and other joyful activities were held at Anand Pur, according to custom, at the time of the engagement of the Guru. The bride, Mata Jeeto Ji, resided at Lahore, which was the capital of the Mughal rulers who were not on good terms with the Gurus. When the time for the marriage ceremony came, it was not considered desirable for the Guru to go to Lahore, along with the armed Sikhs in large numbers. Furthermore, it would involve a lot of traveling and huge expenses, in addition to the inconvenience to the Sangat, younger and old, who wished to witness the marriage of the Guru. Therefore, as mentioned in the Sikh chronicles, Lahore was 'brought' to Anand Pur Sahib for the marriage instead of the Guru going to Lahore. A scenic place a couple of miles to the north of Anand Pur was developed into a nice camp for the marriage. This place was named Guru Ka Lahore. Today, people are going to Anand Pur visit this place as well. The bride was brought to this place by her parents and the marria ge was celebrated with a very huge gathering attending the ceremony.

The two elaborate functions, one at the time of engagement and the other at the time of the marriage of the Guru, gave the outside observers the impression of two marriages. They had reason to assume this because a second name was also there, i.e., Mata Sundari Ji. After the marriage, there is a custom in the Panjab of giving a new affectionate name to the bride by her inlaws. Mata Jeeto Ji, because of her fine features and good looks, was named Sundari (beautiful) by the Guru's mother. The two names and two functions gave a basis for outsiders to believe that the Guru had two wives. In fact, the Guru had one wife with two names as explained above. Some historians even say that Guru Gobind Singh had a third wife, Mata Sahib Kaur. In 1699, the Guru asked her to put patasas (puffed sugar) in the water for preparing Amrit when he founded the Khalsa Panth. Whereas Guru Gobind Singh is recognized as the spiritual father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is recognized as the spiritual mother of the Khalsa. People not conversant with the Amrit ceremony mistakenly assume that Mata Sahib Kaur was the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. As Guru Gobind Singh is the spiritual but not the biological father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Devan is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Devan is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa but not the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. From ignorance of Punjabi culture and the Amrit ceremony, some writers mistook these three names of the women in the life of Guru Gobind Singh as the names of his three wives. Another reason for this misunderstanding is that the parents of Mata Sahib Devan, as some Sikh chronicles have mentioned, had decided to marry her to Guru Gobind Singh. When the proposal was brought for discussion to Anandpur, the Guru had already been married. Therefore, the Guru said that he could not have another wife since he was already married. The dilemma before the parents of the girl was that, the proposal having become public, no Sikh would be willing to marry her. The Guru agreed for her to stay at Anand Pur but without accepting her as his wife. The question arose, as most women desire to have children, how could she have one without being married. The Guru told, "She will be the "mother" of a great son who will live forever and be known all over the world." The people understood the hidden meaning of his statement only after the Guru associated Mata Sahib Devan with preparing Amrit by bringing patasas. It is, therefore, out of ignorance that some writers consider Mata Sahib Devan as the worldly wife of Guru Gobind Singh. 
======================================================================================

Source : http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/matajito.html

Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.


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## Amerikaur (Feb 20, 2005)

I respectfully disagree a bit with Platinum.  


""women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children" 

The women that have children often do tend to be raising them, yes.  But with the birth control pill, as well as some erosion prejudice, there are many women that are content to not have children at all.


""which leads them not able to work as many hours as men.. making them more dependent to a certain degree ""

I don't necessarily agree with that.  There are many situations where the husband simply does not earn enough to support the household, and the wife must earn something so the household stays solvent.  In that situation, the husband is just as dependent on the wife. 


"" YES it could go the other way around too... but generally speaking this is how its always been, and by nature how females are. ""

But women working isn't "how it's always been."  That has been more recent.  But if having children and staying home with them were how all females are...then there would be substantially less women in the workforce...as they would all be drawn to staying at home caring for their children.  


""If you look at modern day society you will see that many women are drawn to a wealthy man (provider) and would care less if that man has a wife...so some women today jump into pural marages with both arms and legs without thinking of a males first wife.""

A woman in that situation is not fulfilling the role of a wife, she is fulfilling the role of a prostitute.


""the highly respectful Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind, Guru Hari Rai, and Guru Gobind Singh all had more then one wife ""

But the reasons behind it were not specifically (or exclusively) so a man can indulge himself sexually with more than one woman.

There was very little in those days for medicine, or medical care.  Diseases were common...especially in hot climates.   Life provided much more risk.  Childbirth was risky.  Children were paramount.  Women did not have careers of their own, and sterile women were dismissed as useless.

In addition to the reasons sited by Dr. Gurbaksh Singh, polygamy had a very important role of ensuring perpetual children.  It provided genetic diversity to fend off diseases and disorders.   It is a fantastic solution.

And now, centuries later, the planet is feeling the strain of all of that genetic diversity.  Two coutries where polygamy thrived for centuries, India and China, are now desoerately overcrowded with populations topping over 1,000,000,000 each.  

But in modern times, we have much better medical care, many diseases are under control, and a very watchful eye is taken torwards reproductive habits.  Or in China's case, a very legislative eye.  There may have been a time, and a need, for polygamy.  However, that time is likely not now.


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## The lion king (Apr 7, 2005)

I agree with the above.

polygamy is of no value in this day and age.

women now are more independent and are more career focused.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 7, 2005)

Gurfateh



Sau Sakhi was writtan at the time of GURU and if we go by and if go by it other sources for other justufication like to eat meat then we must accpet that Guuru had Mahal more then one.Especialy the Tenth Master.



If Kala Afghan Ji or Baber sher ji say that Triya Chritar are not Gurubani then this does not means that it is not.If they say same for Japu Sahib or like they say for Raagmala they say for other Sabads of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.They are not the authority to decide nor is Das.



But what qoute of Bhai Gurdas JI is given(bhai Kahan Singh Ji Nabah said that not all of thier Vars are authinitc) but Das say all are true.



What he said regarding EK Nari Jati is in General term ie to be truthfull to own wife as later on he state not to go after other's wife.So even more then one wife is thier at a time we can be loyal to one or more then one of our own wifes.But not to commit adultory.



In cases like rape,widowhood oor exterme fincial or phyisical difficulty there could not be any problem for polygamy.Due to going after mony to rear more child Sikhs are already haing less population due to family plaing and may bcome minority in Hindu or Muslim Majority and ploygamy can solve this problem.

Well Das can not make two Angeetha or Tenth Guru then why can we have arhcilogical Angeethas for all three matas.One is in Annadpur Sahib(Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji) and other two are in Bala Sahib Delhi.

It is craze to mould and fit Sikhism in modern fold that we harp anti polygamy weather in this process we are sufocating it with false information.

Das would like to have more then one wife(Just kiding) and give birth to 10 Sikhs if Akal allow by 3 wife and make a criket team.

In Fact it is better to give a doughter to give to Sikh even already married then let her go to Anti Sikh non Sikh.Das can bring here an essy hew rote sometime before in this regard.

Das can only say that those who sit there in west can coment while here where we fight for survivla in democracy and n umber counts we have to think practice.Let there be seprate Sikh family law and we must be made to have ploygamy.

we were  2.5% of India 15 years before.

Today we are les s then 1.9

This could be one of the reason.In Punjab Sikhs are keep on haiving samller andsamller family and this wil   keep on reducing thier numbers.And Sikhism is ultimate ends of other faiths and not  something uprooted that we do not leanr from other like say Muslims r Jews so that we can do something to save faith.


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## Arvind (Apr 7, 2005)

There was a news in circulation that Jathedar Patna Sahib exhibited polygamy with an intention to prove that it is okay. Someone may like to post evidence to this, if there is any link online abt this.

Personally, I feel monogamy is better.

Thanks.


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## The lion king (Apr 7, 2005)

I, personally am not in favour of polygamy. but if such a case rises where it is absolute nessasry IF under extenuating circumstances then its ok.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 8, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das will soon analyse where Brother Baber Sher were making some good statements and Das may not agree.Das can say that Das is not generalising that all of us should do polygamy but mongamy and Polygamy can go togather.

In Past Arya Samajis wanted to say Gurus were lustfull so they did have more then one wives so to defend that our reformer made all these claims.If they say Rama was Yug Purush with one wife then he had three mothers.

Lord Krishna Had more then one wife.He is mentioned in Bhai Gurdas's Var and equated with God and told that he was mercyful to Sudama Ji and Vidur Ji.The same person Bhai Gurdas says that one (person) must be loyal or chaste(Yati) with Nari(wife) and other's (marreid )wife must be deemed sisters/mothers /Doughters.

So go to south but do not to north.In this statement going to east or west is not prohibitied.So to marry unamrred,divrecee or Widowed by marreided are not forbbiddan.(by the way what is the proof that Vars of Bhai sahib are key to Gurbani,telll this to Das?)

Well Guru Ji were not Jatts or Punjabis and deeming them same is very Bad.Say Bibi Nanaki,Mata Tripta,Mata Khivi,Mata Bhani,Mata Gujari in there case there is only one name is there iif Das knows correctly and why were they not givne two names.

Then regarding Three Angeethas even if he exume or X Ray bones of female under Three of them if someone does not want to agree to it then Das can not forece them.

By the way why should some one make two Samadhis(Angeetha or Grave of remains) of a 'single' person adjacent to each others as in Bala Sahib Gurudwara,Delhi(Both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri Ji).

Then Das does not find Rahit is beloved to me and Sikh is not Vachitar Natak.It is in Rahit Nammah of some person who could be at the time of Tenth master and After him also.He is correct in both the cases.But Bhai Gurbax Singh(writer of Mangal Prakash) and Kavi Santokh Singh Ji(Suraj Praksh's writer) contemporary of Guru and born after Gurus going to Sachkhand are not correct when they btalk of Gurus having more then one wife.Akal decides.


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## Sher Singh (Apr 23, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> *Polygamy and Sikhism*
> 
> Polygamy is wide spread among different cultures of the world. According to one study out of '853' cultures only 16 percent stipulate monogamy. Historically most of the Sikh kings practiced polygamy in 18th and 19th centuary. The Guru Amar Dass ji has clearly defined that conjugal relationship has to be two bodies and one soul phenomenon. It vividly conforms to the monogamy idealism.
> 
> ...




NO, THE SIKH GURU'S DID NOT HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE!!!
I say this because I no for a fact that the Guru's wouldnt go against another Guru's teaching. there is no point in having more than one wife. The Guru's had one wife and one wife only. I think that the some women didnt want to get married and just stay with the Guru, because getting married there re many responsibilities. Thus, the Guru's had one wife, but i think that the other women became "famous for being the Gurus' wife" as well because they didnt want to get married, but stay with the Guru, and do sewa.

Forgive me if i said anythign wrong.


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## Lee (May 27, 2005)

Waheguru Ji Ka Kahlsa, 
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

AmeriKaur, Platimun, Cyeber Sangat.

Umm all very intersting, I can see the merits of both.

I think what Platinum is saying, is more to do with the inherant built in differances between male and female.  Which as she rightly points out will not really change, no matter how we change socialy as a species.

On a personal note, I could see how polygamy could work but my wife wouldn't let me :0)

Cheers,

Lee.


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## Saheb Singh (Jun 30, 2005)

*If a man is allowed to marry more then once ,does it not applies for women.*
*I personaly feel wat i require for myself must be for wife as well.I being not even dust feet of guru ji cannot except my selffishness of having more then one wife and no more husband for my wife.I assume u all their wont except too if u realy beleive and practice sikhi in its real essence of equal rites reserved for men and women.*
*If yes then how can u think GURU'S WOULD HAVE DONE SO!!!!!!!!!!!*
*Pologamy or having life partner more then one person into spiritual life has no meanings.*
*Can anybody out there coud love another women(as life partner) having one earlier?????????*
*Even soni - mahiwal,heer -ranja never crossed their ethical and faithful boundaries.Coz love is eternal but lust is changable.*
*Thus guru insisitng to control lust and even is erased at fourth lav ,cannot and never went opposite.*
*Thus one claiming gurus polygamy must first think can they go beyond such deeds if practicing real sikh spirituality.I assume they wont .*
*Polygamy is lust in its real essence *
*wbr*


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jun 30, 2005)

My apologies, I can't let this one pass:

> Also biologically speaking  women can carry 
>disease in there genital area more easly COMPARED 
>to men.. so the spead of a virus is MORE liken to 
>happen when a female takes on a polygamy life style

I work in STI (sexually transmitted infections) research and women's health. Scientifically speaking, this is ABSOLUTELY wrong. In terms of male/female sex, the rate of STI infection is about equal between the two groups, and the biggest reasons being that it usually takes longer to find STI symptoms in women, and because sperm can carry a large amount of virus. It is far easier to catch HIV from a man, for instance, than it is to catch it from a woman. 

As to polygamy, my 2 cents:  

We're dealing here with the complexities of history, culture and the economic reality of women all over the world. Outside of which gender can give birth, you truly cannot make blanket statements about "women are this way" or "men are that way" and be 100% correct for all women or all men. Of course there are significant biological differences, but these differences appear as *statistical differences between large groups*. 

Whether or not Guru Gobindji had multiple wives isn't really a problem from my point of view. It was a very common practice in that day and time, advantageous for both men and women in some ways, disadvantageous in others. Given that women at this time had little access to economic independence, being married to someone who could provide for them and their offspring was essential, and having more than one wife helped with the load of taking care of the household and children. There are some interesting variations on this-- in modern day tribal Africa, for instance, where women do have some means for economic independence, it is not uncommon for a woman to "purchase" a wife or to have many husbands. 

In many areas women have fought for economic and sexual independence, but this revolution is only 150 years old-- hardly enough time to truly analyze its societal impact. And only in the last 30-40 years have women been able to decide if and when they want to be pregnant due to contraceptive technology. 

If you look at some of the more "fringe" movements in sexual liberation, you'd eventually run into polyamorists. These are people who consider themselves non-monogamous. They may or may not live with a "primary" partner (my observation: they all do take care of their children very well, both biological parents and many adopted aunts and uncles). They may or may not have other partners besides their primary. They may or may not live in a commune with all their partners and children. The KEY ideology of polygamists is that everybody must give their explicit consent to their arrangements, and they must treat all their partners with the respect and love due to that particular partner. I'm not saying I'm for or against this, or that it is a great model, but it does exist, and it does work for some men and women. However, it has been my observation with friends who choose this life that it introduces as many problems as it seemingly solves. 

Now, as a Sikh, AS A SIKH, I don't think the question is how our Gurus lived their lives. Our present-day Guru is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and it is the Gurbani within that guides us; not a history that may or may not be flawed in accuracy. As a Sikh, all your thoughts and deeds must be done with Akal in mind. Always you think of the True Guru. Always you honor the Guru in yourself, in other humans, in nature and in the universe. IF you feel that you honor the True Guru in your heart and soul by remaining monogamous, then that is your answer. If you feel that you can love-- NOT lust after-- more than one person and completely honor how they feel about this type of situation AND you can nuture your children properly, then perhaps that is your answer. 

My only real problem with religion is that it "freezes" sexuality into one place and time, despite all that we have learned about sexuality, men, women and reproduction. Knowledge is the Guru's gift to us; the laws that outline how the universe and all of creation works comes from the Guru's Hukam. To throw away this information makes us no better than the creationists who insist that evolution is a sham. However, it is COMPLETELY necessary to give the True Guru absolute control of our mind and soul before we make a decision involving another human being's heart. These decisions will always be among the most important decisions we make in this lifetime.


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 6, 2005)

The quotes mentioned above from gurbani do not relate to Polygamy, but to "lust". 

Please note that Gurbani is in Gathya (poetic) format and not Pathya (paragraphs). Poetic compositions use different ways (alankars) to communicate a message. For example, "Atishyokti" alankar which is (and was) commonly used by poets to mention things of large proportions....For example, 

jy sau cMdw augvih sUrj cVih hjwr
 
  If a hundred moons were to rise, and a thousand suns appeared,
eyqy cwnx hoidAW gur ibnu Gor AMDwr ]2] 
​ even with such light, there would still be pitch darkness without the Guru. ||2||  



Now, in the above quote reference to "hundreds" of moons and "thousands" of suns is an example of "atishyokti" alankar. Similary, the third Guru's quote 

jy lK iesqrIAw Bog krih nv KMf rwju kmwih ]
` You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world. 


should not be interpreted literally. Instead, study the "rahao" line which clearly contains the central meaning of the whole shabad

 mn ry igRh hI mwih audwsu ] 
O mind, remain detached in the midst of your household. 

scu sMjmu krxI so kry gurmuiK hoie prgwsu ]1] rhwau ] 
Practicing truth, self-discipline and good deeds, the Gurmukh is enlightened. ||1||Pause|| 

Upon studing the complete shabad (The first line and the rahao line), it is very clear the teaching of this shabad is how to live a Gursikh life..

And all the lines following the rahao line actually a "NOT TO DO LIST" (having sex with millions of (multiple) women, etc.) for a Gursikh.

I suggest that you study the entire shabad and look at its meaning in its entirety and not mis quote a single line separately. We all are mature people and should avoid mis quoting gurbani with half cooked interpretations to sensationalize the topic.

Coming back to the actual question of polygamy, One thing we all need to think is

 Is polygamy = sex with more than one partner
 Or
 Polygamy = Marrying more than one partner

I think it is the later. The former is just pre lust (like visiting prostitutes). The difference is same as between "lust" and "love".

Now is it a sin to love more than one women? I would say no. But is it practical in today's world? I would again say no. For those who are already married, just close your eyes and try to visualize having more than one husband/wife (and more children). I would say, those who visit this forum (Note that the visitors of this forum do not statistically represent the entire population of Sikhs) would agree it is not practical to have more than one married partner.

If we all agree that it is impractical to have more than one married partner, then I do not understand what the fuss is about? If someone agrees, then I ask...Have you tried it yet? If you have not tried it, then again ....what the fuss is about? 

If you have tried it, then please let us know how is it possible to love more than one person at the same time.

Regards


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## devinesanative (Jan 14, 2006)

Great men have special priveleges and administrative rights , just like the administrator of this site .

Whaevr greatmen do , as per scholars , it has a great meaning and message , but when the same done a normal human being its Dirty and against what you call Gurmatt .


In the good old days people were more wise than todays . At that people were more scientific and they had synchronized with nature . 

At that people used to get married at the age of 11 but now it 18 for women and 20 for men . But this age is also to fool .

When any one commits rape , then people complain , WHY ?

One thing which wisemen as well as others know that no one can escape the sexual urge . Some do it in a polygamy way , some do it in extramarital affairs , some do it in  premarital affairs .


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## ISDhillon (Jan 14, 2006)

WJKK WJKF

The guru says "ek jot doee murti"  so cant exceed number 2.

Indy


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## devinesanative (Jan 14, 2006)

BaljeetSingh said:
			
		

> The quotes mentioned above from gurbani do not relate to Polygamy, but to "lust".
> 
> Please note that Gurbani is in Gathya (poetic) format and not Pathya (paragraphs). Poetic compositions use different ways (alankars) to communicate a message. For example, "Atishyokti" alankar which is (and was) commonly used by poets to mention things of large proportions....For example,
> 
> ...


 


Oh , dear , it is possible to love more than two or three but even millions .

Just imagine when we say Love towards God ,

Love ->God

and God resides in each living and non living creature , so ultimately we are loving not one but millions , and ofcourse including women .


Does Love always means kissing , hugging and Gulcharre udaing ?


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## devinesanative (Jan 14, 2006)

If people don't do polygamy for sex then do they do it do Keertan and Bhajan ...

Ecstacy and Rapture is the End Goal , Sex is just medium and polygamy is first step ... And Childrens are the byproducts out of polygamy .

Now , how WiseMen will Justify and Hide their this sensual pleasure .

They will justify that they want to progress the society and increase their population .


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 14, 2006)

Gurfateh

one light and two entiy stands for God and devotee and if there are more then one devotee as here in case of us.God being our husband ie Husband of soul ie Khasam becoomes one with polygamy.


Just to counter demographic imbalance by some community we as Sikh need to have more child.Same is true to Hindus and Christians.Otherwise we will have to casterise some males as hapened in Balkens by serbs which will be inhuman.


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## devinesanative (Jan 16, 2006)

If God is considered male and husband , then women are lucky of being women , they are a perfect match with God .

But what men are doing , Kabab mein haddi , considering themselves as wifes of God . 

Why men Do not consider God as Female ?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 16, 2006)

Gurfateh

Sufies do consider God as female love.While Guru Granth Sahib and Dasham Granth Ji and Sarbloh Granth also treat God as Mother as well as father.
To be more clearer.In the form of our family memeber like Wife,Mother or Father or Husband it is God only who is taking care of us.
No need to have attchement of manifestations but with one who manifests self.


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## devinesanative (Jan 16, 2006)

I completely agree with you Dear ,

Its okay to Love God ,

Its Okay that God is Husband.

Its Okay that God is Mother and Father.

Its okay to not have attachment. 


When we love , listen and understand other fellow being whether he is in need of us or not . Then , we love God .


When we Love our family then we love God .


When One loves his Wife then he loves God.

When one loves his husband then she loves God.


Love towards absolute God is just Fanatic and extremism .


And that is main reason for world corruption , that people fail to understand their fellow human beings , and chant day and night that they love God . 

No one can bypass the Gifts of God and love God directly .


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## devinesanative (Jan 16, 2006)

Neutral Singh said:
			
		

> *Polygamy and Sikhism*
> 
> Polygamy is wide spread among different cultures of the world. According to one study out of '853' cultures only 16 percent stipulate monogamy. Historically most of the Sikh kings practiced polygamy in 18th and 19th centuary. The Guru Amar Dass ji has clearly defined that conjugal relationship has to be two bodies and one soul phenomenon. It vividly conforms to the monogamy idealism.
> 
> ...


 

All the human beings have the super human powers , it is the two lethal weapons phylosophy and psychology that makes one super human or non super human.

Those who are Proactive , enthusiastic , self motivated , who intiate and lead become superhumans. These people are Internally driven people .


Those who need kick on the butt , become normal . these people are externally driven people .


consider taking an example of a latest computer with P$ microprocessor .


Suppose there are 4 people and 4 computers .

All the computers have the same configuration , but all the 4 people operating it are earning differently .

Does it mean that the person who is earning less , means his computer is less powerfull.


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## kharkoo4life (Jan 20, 2006)

> devinesanative said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hps62 (Jan 21, 2006)

Dear brothers

SSAKAL 

I am all for polygamy. It has got a advantage without sounding  eugenetist.

Polygamy can only be done by people who can afford the ecnomic  consequences of  it.

If economics is one parameter of sucess in todays world then the ability of polygamy would be a marker of  your sucess.

However the  whole thing has got so tied  up to religion , woman  rights , modern society and the world of logic that it is difficult to socially proclaim it as such.

muslims use the garb of  religion to defend it and I think it contributes a portion to there sucess . See my thread " Indian muslim a sucess story:- lessons for Indian Sikhs  "

So if you are smart and daring ;go ahead and have as many wives as you want . you will certianly not  get official sanction for  it . Rather you would be  on the  wrong side of law.

But then they say a smart genome can do the impossible.

PS : - please also accept that a woman can do the same  eugeneics by having some smarter guys genes without  being  wedded to him.

sorry for all this non - sikh like talk.
But  it  sounded  logical so I penned  in my thoughts.
bhul shul maf
I am otherwise a happily married guy with 3 children and a wonder ful wife.

luv
WGKWGF

hps62 :whisling: :wink: :star:


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## Hardkaur (Mar 8, 2009)

you got that information about sikh gurus having multiple wives from AN ISLAMIC WEB PAGE IVE SEEN IT, IF YOU WANT TRUE ACCURATE INFORMATION ON SIKHISM THAN ASK A SIKH, not someone of another relgion whose trying to break down our beliefs. none of the gurus had more than one wife, and by WIFE I MEAN SEXUAL PARTNER. JUST BY UNDERGOING A MARRIAGE CEREMONY DOES NOT MAKE YOU ARE HUSBAND AND WIFE, WHICH IS WHY PARTNERS CAN ANNUAL THERE MARIAGE IF THEYVE NEVER HAD SEX IT MEANS THEY WERE NEVER REALLY MARRIED SINCE THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE IS TO REPRODUCE. there are many stories in account of women apporaching guru's and asking them to take them as there wives but the gurus already being married refused saying they were already married. Take for example the case of mata shaib kaur ji, she appraoched guru gobind singh ji and was determined on being his wife but he was already married to mata sunadri ji and refused to make her his wife. So he said he would give her the respect and social status of a wife without actually allowing her to be his wife (have any form of physical relations) thus he made her the spirtual mother of the khalsa, im surpised by the lack of faith many of you show in the writtings of the gurus. And as for all you men out there who favour polagamy just to let you know polagamy FAVOURS  WOMEN MORE THAN IT DOES men. 

Think about it IF THERES AN EQUAL NUMBER OF MEN AND WOMEN ON EARTH AND 1 MAN HAS 4 WIVES, THAT MEANS THAT 4 MEN WILL NEVER GET A CHANCE TO REPRODUCE. WOMEN WILL ALWAYS HAVE THAT CHANCE IREGARDLESS BECAUSE MEN ARE ABLE TO TAKE MORE THAN 1 WOMAN. Polagamy is just not practical, and although its quite common in the animal kingdom, the reprodcutive cycles of those creature are different than those of humans. HUMAN FEMALES ARE AMONG THE FEW ANIMALS THAT ARE CAPABLE OF REPRODUCING AT ANY TIME, thnk about it children can be born and conceived at any time and moth of the year (jan-dec), however in many animals the male and female species mate say in the spring or something because it is the only time the FEMALE reproductive cycles function so in order to produce offspring and for the survival of the species many males mate with multiple females.


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## spnadmin (Mar 8, 2009)

In the end -- it is not something to get bothered over in this day and age. I think you are right Hardkaur ji -- this continuing issue/theme is spread by religious factions that are bent on undermining faith and creating spiritual chaos and mental confusion. The message should be our focus. Thank you. :star:


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 8, 2009)

> IF THERES AN EQUAL NUMBER OF MEN AND WOMEN ON EARTH


Yes, if that was true. But its never true.



> although its quite common in the animal kingdom, the reprodcutive cycles of those creature are different than those of humans.


So in animals polygamy occurs becasue they only reproduce in spring?
The statements below do not support this statement.




> HUMAN FEMALES ARE AMONG THE FEW ANIMALS THAT ARE CAPABLE OF REPRODUCING AT ANY TIME, thnk about it children can be born and conceived at any time and moth of the year (jan-dec), however in many animals the male and female species mate say in the spring or something because it is the only time the FEMALE reproductive cycles function so in order to produce offspring and for the survival of the species many males mate with multiple females.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 8, 2009)

As my British mate would say," One wife is a headache, who wants a migraine by having more than one"?:inca:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 8, 2009)

Some of the so called "history" regarding the Sikh Gurus is not only flabbergasting but ludicrous....and this sort is mostly repeated by the Derawallahs and other half baked parcharaks who have no idea that their tall tales masquerading as "history" have neither head nor tail..

Guru Har Rai Ji....Born in 1630 in the house of Baba gurditta ji to Mata KISHAN KAUR. Baba gurditta Ji - son of Guru hargobind Ji passed away when Har rai Ji was only 8 years old. Har rai ji then spent the next 9 years growing up in his Grandfather Guru Hargobind Jis company.
Guru Har rai was confirmed on Gurta by Guur Hargobind Ji in Feb 1641...but was actually GURU in 1644 - wehn Guru Hargobind ji passed on.
Guru Har rai Jis marriage took place on 14th Jnauray, 1640 to Mata SULAKHNI daughter of Bhai Daya ram of Aroop Nagar. She was only 10 years old..and so was Guru har rai Ji....Bhai Daya ram then moved his house from Aroop nagar to KALIANPUR- to be near Kiratpur where the Guru was living. Two years later 16th june 1642 SULAKHNI was sent to the house of Guru har rai Ji ( MUKLAWA). Only after two years and three months later did Guru hargobind Ji pass on and Gurta Gadee was confirmed on Guru har rai ji in 1644.
First child of Guru har rai Ji was Ram Rai born 24-02-1646, second child ROOP KAUR 20-04-1649 and third child Guru Har Kishan Ji on 20-07-1652.

Mata sulakhni..mother of three....nickname TRIBENI....her parents moved to KALIANPUR.....nickkname....KALIYANEE....impossible ?? not really....

The SEVEN WIVES of Guru har rai Ji are not only..SEVEN...!!!! BUT according to DERAWADEE Sources..the SEVEN ARE SISTERS !!! Completly ludicrous ?? who says so ?? we are SANTS/BRAHMGIANIS..we KNOW !!! Brahmgiani ki gatt brahmgiani janneh says who !!! and their chelas are no better..IF OUR SANT says so..then its WRITTEN IN STONE..becasse he is a ...you guessed it..a brahmgiani....ALL Logic/sense/ etc goes out the window the moment a  sant brahmgiani sits on the stage...

Would any ( YES ANY ??) right thinking father of SEVEN GIRLS....marry off his daughters to a TEN YEAR OLD BOY ( even IF he is Guru designate and son of a GURU ??) Even if there is such a father...what about the AGES of his seven daughters....remember the (GURU) HAR RAI is just 10...so the ELDEST DAUGHTER has to be around 10...or maybe a year or two older....then what AGE is the YOUNGEST ?? Unless they were all SEXTUPLETS ?? or is it OCTuplets ??

Then they ignore the historical fact that ALL three children of Guru har rai ji were from the same one wife...the others didnt exist..or they were not wives...or they were all issueless...couldnt bear children..or..or ..or.. endless possibilities. The strange thing is Sikhs are willing to IGNORE GURBANI and what the GURU TAUGHT..and rely on these "endless possibilities"....or..or..or..:ice::ice::ice::ice::ice:

We must always use our GURU BESTOWED intellect.. AKL..to be discerning...logical...use touchstone of GURBANI....to compare..evaluate..all sources..events..etc and arrive at conclusions that are as per what our GURUS would do according to their own teachings....Avar updesseh AAP na kareh is NOT the SIKH GURU's WAY at all. The Sikh GURUS way is always..DO as I DO....Leadership by EXAMPLE..not empty preaching...:23_2_72::welcome:


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 20, 2011)

Perhaps it would be better to divide the mess on this thread into its relevant issues, and discuss these separately. Number 1, is being discussed here.

1. the number of wives Gurus had

2. the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with regards to polygamy

3. sexism - Where men can have more than one wife but not vice versa.

4. lust.

5. the practicality of polygamy, the philosophy of love and sex.

6. scientific evidence of polygamy in other animals and in human evolution.


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji

Thank you for your input. The thread is somewhat older, and you have resurrected the discussion. Therefore, I am sorry if the 6 directions you have identified and that other members took from 2004 through 2009 is not to your liking. However, the thread seems fine to me. Often individual posters will see a need to elaborate on an issue that is related to/supports ideas embedded in the thread topic. That is not the same as a digression. You are free to start new threads on issues 2 through 6 if you perceive a need to focus on any one of them in more depth.


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## hernandres (Jul 13, 2012)

1. No evidence has been presented that I have read through out this entire thread that says Polygamy is against the Guru's teachings. 2. Every Polygamist relationship you have all talked about is in a negative view. Why has no one brought the argument that the women are OK with it and joined the marriage willingly. 3. Quotes presented are misinterpreted and stretched far beyond what they were meant to cover the daily Banis say things like "you can pray and do good works but without GOD none of that matters" So does that mean praying and good works are a bad thing? because that is the same argument you used to say that Polygamy was against the Guru's teachings. Your examples were "you can enjoy the company/beauty of many women but you will not know GOD" or something of those likes. 4. When a man marries more than 1 women he can have more than 1 child at a time. When a Women marries more than one man she can still only have 1 child at a time, if she married 10 men at most she would probably have 10-15 children and spend her entire life having children. A man would be able to have children upon children upon children with several wives. This a common argument used towards why women can't have more than 1 husband their really isn't any benefits nor good reasons too. 5. Lastly I have failed to read any argument that isn't Subjective nor any quote from scripture that can honestly imply that polygamy is wrong.


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## Kamala (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't get what the big deal is.. if the wives are ok with it I guess it's fine..


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 14, 2012)

Wow Kamala ji, your don't care attitude is pretty insightful. Many women think it is OK to be hit by their husbands once in a while. What are your views on that?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 14, 2012)

Some get regularly BASHED good and proper..even entering hospitals for a week or so..still OK...because they LOVE their Husbands...icecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudi


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## findingmyway (Jul 14, 2012)

hernandres said:


> 1. No evidence has been presented that I have read through out this entire thread that says Polygamy is against the Guru's teachings. 2. Every Polygamist relationship you have all talked about is in a negative view. Why has no one brought the argument that the women are OK with it and joined the marriage willingly. 3. Quotes presented are misinterpreted and stretched far beyond what they were meant to cover the daily Banis say things like "you can pray and do good works but without GOD none of that matters" So does that mean praying and good works are a bad thing? because that is the same argument you used to say that Polygamy was against the Guru's teachings. Your examples were "you can enjoy the company/beauty of many women but you will not know GOD" or something of those likes. 4. When a man marries more than 1 women he can have more than 1 child at a time. When a Women marries more than one man she can still only have 1 child at a time, if she married 10 men at most she would probably have 10-15 children and spend her entire life having children. A man would be able to have children upon children upon children with several wives. This a common argument used towards why women can't have more than 1 husband their really isn't any benefits nor good reasons too. 5. Lastly I have failed to read any argument that isn't Subjective nor any quote from scripture that can honestly imply that polygamy is wrong.




Relationships are emotion so disregarding emotional arguments is not possible in this particular issue.
Ang 788

ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl:


ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ Dhhan Pir Eaehi N Aakheean Behan Eikathae Hoe ||
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.



ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ *ਦੁਇ* ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ Eaek Joth Dhue Moorathee Dhhan Pir Keheeai Soe ||3||
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in *two* bodies. ||3||


Could not be clearer!!!


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## Archived_member15 (Jul 14, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> Relationships are emotion so disregarding emotional arguments is not possible in this particular issue.
> Ang 788
> 
> ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl:
> ...


 

A beautiful description of a loving, monogamous, spiritual relationship mundahug


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## Ishna (Jul 14, 2012)

Pity the SRM doesn't reflect the Gurbani.


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## Kamala (Jul 15, 2012)

I don't understand where abuse came from, you mustve taken my point from a wrong perception.. But I think abuse is wrong.. not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse) some are really nice.


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## findingmyway (Jul 15, 2012)

Kamala said:


> I don't understand where abuse came from, you mustve taken my point from a wrong perception.. But I think abuse is wrong.. not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse) some are really nice.



However, the Sikh Guru's didn't have multiple wives so your comparison doesn't work I'm afraid. If they did, the above quote from Gurbani would never have been written. Men with multiple wives may not physically abuse their wives but making a woman share a man is a form of emotional abuse (and vice versa if it were to happen the other way round).


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 15, 2012)

> not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse)


 
Kamala ji has anyone in your family been in polygamy? If there is no instance in your house, why do you think there would be one in Guru Ghar?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2012)

Kamala said:


> I don't understand where abuse came from, you mustve taken my point from a wrong perception.. But I think abuse is wrong.. not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse) some are really nice.



Kamalji

No Guru would cheapen the institution of marriage by doing this, however, We must always be aware of the popularity of such opinion. My opinion was much the same as yours until I was corrected by Jasleen Bhenji. 

For such an enlightened religion, we sure suck at educating our sangat


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## imperativeduty (Jul 16, 2012)

If a Muslim family in a polygamous marriage decide to convert to Sikhism what must they do? Does the husband have to choose 1 wife? or does he keep them all?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 16, 2012)

imperativeduty said:


> If a Muslim family in a polygamous marriage decide to convert to Sikhism what must they do? Does the husband have to choose 1 wife? or does he keep them all?




a circumcised "sikh" with four wives...?? Have to ask the wives too..do they want to change..? and if so WHY ?? Sikhism and Gurmatt DOESNT ENCOURAGE CONVERSION for conversion sake...a Muslim can be a GOOD Mulsim..as several Muslims in Sikh History have remained Muslim...Sheikh farid Bhagat kabir etc are good examples..


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## aristotle (Jul 16, 2012)

@imperative duty,
Conversion to another religion should always be a matter of faith.
If a person has 'four' wives, and he wants to convert to Sikhism, he should not force the same upon his wives. And as for keeping his wives, if he 'chooses' a wife and forsakes the other three, it would be grave injustice to them. But using this instance to justify one's polygamy would be wrong. The instance you quoted is a theoretic possibility, and should be dealt as it is.
Anyways, anyone who wants to join Sikhism and attain salvation can only be welcomed, no strings attached..


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## aristotle (Jul 16, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> Relationships are emotion so disregarding emotional arguments is not possible in this particular issue.
> Ang 788
> 
> ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl:
> ...



Beautiful mentions,
I don't think much is left to be explained. The same Gurus who wrote these verses can't be accused of polygamy. Our medieval 'historical' sources have been vastly corrupted as has been discussed many times on SPN too.
Obviously those sources which mention Gurus to have multiple wives are far from reality and should be aptly corrected to reflect our true history. Sikhism clearly advocates Monogamy.
:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## imperativeduty (Jul 16, 2012)

OK if the wives also agree to convert because they feel the Gurus spoke the truth? This is more of a hypothetical question as I would like to know what the Theory behind Polygamy would be from a Converting family and if Sikhism accepts the Marriage then how can Sikhism hold to be Against Polygamy? Would it rather be that Sikhism encourages Monogamy and Discourages Polygamy? vs. the stance many have taken that it completely denounces Polygamy?... This is an honest question I know in some religions like Catholicism Greek orthodox priests can marry and then if they convert to roman Catholicism they are still allowed to keep their wife. Would it be similar circumstances?


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## aristotle (Jul 16, 2012)

@Imperativeduty,
It is simple, Sikhism discourages polygamy. But there is no rule for 'denouncing' someone if he/she practises polygamy/polyandry. Remaining faithful to one's partner finds ample mentions in the Gurbani. Sikhism does not think of 'Man as the provider' and 'Women are dependent' on men. 
There is a legal aspect too. Like, In India, Only Muslims can practise polygamy, otherwise it is prohibited by law. 
As in your instance, if the other wives find Sikhism as their path of salvation and want to convert to Sikhism, there can be no stopping them.


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## Archived_member15 (Jul 17, 2012)

aristotle said:


> And as for keeping his wives, if he 'chooses' a wife and forsakes the other three, it would be grave injustice to them. But using this instance to justify one's polygamy would be wrong.


 

 I wonder is there anything in _legal terms _within Sikhi which actually stipulates what would be the procedire if a polygamous man were too convert? :sippingcoffeemunda:

In my religion there is a very clear answer: The man/woman must dismiss the other women/men as his wives/husbands and remain faithful to the first wife/husband or, if he/she finds this difficult then he can be granted a dispensation to be allowed to be married to one of the other wives. 

In Canon Law it says: 


_*Can. 1148 §1. When he receives baptism in the Catholic Church, a non-baptized man who has several non-baptized wives at the same time can retain one of them after the others have been dismissed, if it is hard for him to remain with the first one. The same is valid for a non-baptized woman who has several non-baptized husbands at the same time.

§2. In the cases mentioned in §1, marriage must be contracted in legitimate form after baptism has been received...*
*§3. Keeping in mind the moral, social, and economic conditions of places and of persons, the local ordinary is to take care that the needs of the first wife and the others dismissed are sufficiently provided for according to the norms of justice, Christian charity, and natural equity.*_


The Church naturally has sympathy for a person in such a predicament - even though she does not deviate from her opposition to polygamy - as the Catechism demonstrates: 


*1645* *"The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection."<SUP>155</SUP> Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive. *

_*2387*__* The predicament of a man who, desiring to convert to the Gospel, is obliged to repudiate one or more wives with whom he has shared years of conjugal life, is understandable. However polygamy is not in accord with the moral law." [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive."<SUP>180</SUP> The Christian who has previously lived in polygamy has a grave duty in justice to honor the obligations contracted in regard to his former wives and his children.*_ 


So the man still has to honour the obligations relating to his former wives even though he is no longer married to them (because he can only be married to one woman).


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

If Sikhs aren't into polygamy, why was Maharaja Ranjit Singh a polygamist?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 17, 2012)

Ishna said:


> If Sikhs aren't into polygamy, why was Maharaja Ranjit Singh a polygamist?




Ishna Ji..   you disappoint me..

Is this a valid question..IF Christians are NOT into Genocide..how come Hitler murdered 6 million Jews ??

You chose Maharaja ranjit Singh over hari Singh nalwa, Akali Foola Singh, nawab Kapoor Singh, baba banda singh bahadur, Bhai mani Singh, and THOUSANDS MORE SIKHS who were Not into POLYGAMY...or having company of dancing girls..or drinking alcohol...or donating GOLD by the Ton to mandirs, Temples, Gurdwaras...An INDIVIDUAL..no matter who..doesnt represent the Entire Kaum or even THE RELIGION...

Btw the Maharaj ranjit singh was NOT an ideal SIKH..he was more of a Brahmanist or keshadharee Hindu...heavily under the inffuence of the Dogra brothers..to the Integrity and Honesty of Akali Foola Singh jathedar of Akal takhat the Maharaja conceded to be TIED to a TREE in front of Akal Takhat and be Publicly WHIPPED for visiting a Muslim prostitute...so he wasnt as BAD as BADAL...the present uncrowned Maharaja of Punjab...Badal has the Jathedars in his BACK POCKET....and the jathedar who committed the mistake of summoning him..had to lock himself up in a TOILET to escape a BEATING !!..so a much better question I may ask..IF Badal Can be a SIKH...then who is NOT a Sikh ??:swordfight-kudiyan:


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## Searching (Jul 17, 2012)

imperativeduty said:


> OK if the wives also agree to convert because they feel the Gurus spoke the truth? This is more of a hypothetical question as I would like to know what the Theory behind Polygamy would be from a Converting family and if Sikhism accepts the Marriage then how can Sikhism hold to be Against Polygamy? Would it rather be that Sikhism encourages Monogamy and Discourages Polygamy? vs. the stance many have taken that it completely denounces Polygamy?... This is an honest question I know in some religions like Catholicism Greek orthodox priests can marry and then if they convert to roman Catholicism they are still allowed to keep their wife. Would it be similar circumstances?




imperative duty ji
In my personal opinion Sikhism is not a dogmatic religion and it only gives a broad moral outline to how should one live. Rest is up to the individual how he/she wants to lead their life within that compass.

Sikhsim would not allow injustice and leaving 3 wives out for 4 would be doing just that.

In my personal opinion one should be allowed to keep all the wives only because he was married before he decided to convert(rarest of rare case). As for those who are already in Sikhism it should be discouraged (As I do not see any justification for polygamy/andry in SGGS ji).

It is also a legal matter as Aristole ji already mentioned.


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

Ranjit Singh was used as an example since the he was ruler of what some consider a golden age for Sikhi. But rightly called, we probably shouldn't base our opinion of a religion on the conduct of its faulty human followers which 99.9% of us are.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 17, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Ranjit Singh was used as an example since the he was ruler of what some consider a golden age for Sikhi. But rightly called, we probably shouldn't base our opinion of a religion on the conduct of its faulty human followers which 99.9% of us are.




IT was the *GOLDEN AGE* all right..Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the BEST thing that ever happened to PUNJAB...but he wasnt the best SIKH. He was Totally SECULAR..looked at ALL with ONE EYE ( figuratively and physically !!)had TOP posts given to Muslims, hindus etc on MERIT...was very very GENEROUS and FAIR MINDED,He is FAMOUS for making the harmandar into the GOLDEN TEMPLE..but what many DONT KNOW is that he donated MUCH MUCH MORE GOLD to Hindu mandirs and money to masjids as well...His Administration  Never hanged a single criminal,he regularly used to go MUFTI at night to walk among the common people to seek out injustice, corruption ,mismanagement, bad governance. At the WEDDING of His Grandson Nau Nihal Singh he had set up a camp and announced that each person coming in together with his "dependents" would be gifted a GOLD MOHR for EACH !! People streamed in bringing along their fmailies, children etc..and ALL Got the Gold Coins as per counting members of each "family"...then ONE Muslim Potter came IN..and he had a GHARRA (clay water pot) filled with ANTS. He claimed the ANTS were his "dependents" and he should receive a Gold Coin for himself and EACH ant member of hsi family. Obviously the Distributing Agent of the Maharaja couldn't accept such a ridiculous demand..so the claimant went to Lahore darbaar to Lodge a complaint that the Maharaja had RENEGED on his Announcement. Finally the Maharaja and the Potter came to an agreement that since it was IMPOSSIBLE to COUNT his dependents would he agree to having his GHARRA FILLED to the BRIM with GOLD COINS ? The Potter smiled and agreed. Immediately the Treasurer was ordered to FILL the POT with Gold Coins and the man went away happy that the Maharaja a had kept his word. This is just one example of How GOOD a Ruler the Maharaja was..*BUT he still doesn't qualify to be called BEST SIKH/Best SIKH ROLEMODEL.*He had many FAILINGS...


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## Kamala (Jul 18, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> However, the Sikh Guru's didn't have multiple wives so your comparison doesn't work I'm afraid. If they did, the above quote from Gurbani would never have been written. Men with multiple wives may not physically abuse their wives but making a woman share a man is a form of emotional abuse (and vice versa if it were to happen the other way round).





Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Kamala ji has anyone in your family been  in polygamy? If there is no instance in your house, why do you think  there would be one in Guru Ghar?




When I read the first post, I thought those names were names of their wives... correct me if I am wrong!


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## thesikhviewpoint (Jul 18, 2012)

well 
this topic gave me a little bit headache for some time but at the end now am here with the answer.
first of all this whole topic is copy pasted from a islamic site -----http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/poly_nm_article0003.html------
second thing is that we as sikhs must be aware of our history so that people from other faiths specially islam and hinduism (both faiths having superiority complex and suffer from converto-phobia)can get befitting reply on the very onset of their mis-information and mis-quotations of sikh history and gurbani.
as per my information and knowledge which i've gathered on this topic, there is no authenticated proof that any of the sikh gurus performed polygamy. what references i collected all state that there is dispute among authors/ writers of respective references. no writer is 100% sure about any polygamy, what they wrote is on the basis of sayings of people (which off course contains majority of bhramins and off course muslims).
regarding the most common reference of polygamy by sikh gurus given by most of islamic scholars (we can find them on sites like convert to islam, why i choose islam, dawah to sikhs etc......the list is unending) is of our tenth guru, guru gobind singh jee. it is mostly argued that guru gobind sing was having three wives. although i think most of the gursikhs know the real truth and this may be already discussed by some one on this site but i may like to repeat it again ----mata jito and mata sundri jee were names of single person...i.e. mata jito was her real name and mata sundri becoz. of her beauty which lead guru gobind singh's mother call her sundri. we can visit guru ki lahore at anandpur sahib where the final marriage ceremony of both was performed as at that time it was not okay for guru jee to visit lahore. now coming to the third name associated among wives og guru gobind singh jee is mata sahib kaur. i think all the khalsa knows that she is our religious mother and the tenth master our religious father and thats what create confusion among these converto-phobic people and they say that mata sahib kaur was also wife of guru gobind singh (the history and turn of events regarding wife of guru gobind singh jee is very well mentioned in some sikhi sites therefore i compiled it in short)
now coming to so called wives of other gurus as mentioned in the topic of this thread, i may like to inform the readers of this thread that what really matters to sikhs is not what is written by so called writers, historians and scholars because most of them rely on sayings which exist during their time or i can also say that they most of the time are biased and misrepresented. i think (as per my knowledge as sikh till now) that the only literature which sikhs can rely on is sri guru granth sahib jee and vaars of bhai gurdaas jee. if there is any literature what soever it is if it does not stands to the test of guru granth sahib jee it can not be accurate.
thus if we read and ask sri guru granth sahib jee about the marriage and relation thereof guru jee tells us "They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. Rather they alone are called husband and wife, who have one soul in two bodies."
(Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pauri, pg. 788)
"The blind-man abandons the wife of his home, and has an affair with another's woman. He is like the parrot, who is pleased to see the simbal tree, but at last dies clinging to it." (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhairo, pg. 1165)
these are only two examples what is the sikh view point on marriage and offcourse some thing more then that.
i think the second example makes it ample clear that if in sikhi extramarital relations are dealt with such hardline what would be the condition in case of polygamy.
those who say/tell/write these things are actually spreading misinformation and trust deficit among sikhs and their faith and offcourse this job is also done by some of our so called katha vachaks who frame their own stories to woo the sangat.
thus from "thesikhviewpoint" the only one we have to rely on is our guru---sri guru granth sahib jee" .....what these historians, writers write and say is to sell their books but what guru granth sahib jee say is the real truth.....so what ever question you have redarding lives of gurus consult the living guru...you'll definitely get the answer....:noticemunda:


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## itsmaneet (Jul 19, 2012)

I think it's very important to check the genuineness of the contents before posting. Secondly the contents being referred are from primary, secondary or what source .. Primary is impossible when talking about history so .. it gets even more important the check the sources of contents.

I my views it's even terrible to discuss on this topic. Gurus can never do anything wrong...and it ends the discussion ..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 19, 2012)

Small MINDS discuss people...GREAT MINDS discuss GURBANI.
mnay So called Sikhs very willing and able to drool over multiple wives etc...BUT the Bottom line is How many have evr asked themselves...OH this Guru sat on the Hot plate..can I DO that ? This Guru sacrificed his mother, father and four sons..can i do the same ?? This SIKH had the living beating heart of his son thrust into his mouth..he never relented or begged or apologised for beinga SIKH..can we do the same in similar situation ?? Most of us CANNOT..yet we cna discuss multiple wives for the sake of discussing ONLY..when the SGGS declares OTHERWISE and so clearly...we still indulge in USELESS GOSSIP and Slander of our GURUS. ONLY GURBANI is the TOUCHSTONE of our History...anything that goes ULTRA VIRES the GURBANI is JUNK.period...Leave JUNK to junk collectors.


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## Brother Onam (Aug 15, 2012)

That's a creepy avatar, g.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 15, 2012)

the words pot, kettle and black come to mind Onanjiji


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## pervez (Aug 16, 2012)

Amerikaur said:


> I respectfully disagree a bit with Platinum.
> 
> 
> ""women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children"
> ...



Polygamy or keeping mistresses is the same as far as child production is concerned in older times. Most people who could afford do have multiple women wifes or mistresses this is true even today.

To look at absolute numbers of population in countries is ridiculous and immature. Population is function of total livable area which can sustain human habitation in terms of food and water and weather conditions. 

We should instead look at population per sq km. If we look then all places where there is fertile land have similar population densities. This is true especially of tropical and sub-torpical areas. In most of India, pakistan, Bangaladesh etc due to rivers, good weather and fertile land more two whole crops are feasible every year and even one short half crop cycle is possible apart from that. There is no danger of snow and extreme cold which makes plants dormant for months together.  Similarly in Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, southern china and southern Japan very fertile soil is there supporting large population density. In US even in hot Texas which is also has major green areas where temp goes to 40-43 degrees in summer they still have a very cold winter and soil in many parts is not very fertile and also is alkaline which limits the variety of food that can be grown.

In cold areas people have to grow food in summer and also have enough for summer and be able to store some for winter either in form of animals. animal products, feed for animals and food for themselves. Thus a particular stretch of land supports a much lesser population.

India and china and many other countries have been blessed with rivers good land and good weather thus support larger population density plus they are also large land mass so total population seems large as compared to other countries.


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## hst (Jul 17, 2013)

I was heartened to read this post.  Whilst there is much need to revert to pre-colonial sources of history, there has to be a wider recognition by all that the British colonialists were not on a charitable mission in the Punjab!  They had a clear agenda that required the replacement of pre-colonial institutions with their own; and they did so with fervour from 1846 and 1849 onward.  However, one has to be careful not to replace one type of history with another biased view.  It would only be a commendation to the legacy established in the roots of Sikhi if a learned approach was taken and more Sikh educational institutions established.  On another note, how would the various commentators look at polyandry - there may not be obvious recorded examples but its sits perfectly in terms of equality with polygamy?!


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