# Is It More Important To Believe In God Or To Be A Sikh



## Truthsikher31 (Apr 30, 2018)

To be a Sikh, you pretty much believe in the existence of God.  But people will argue how to be a Sikh, like I'm Sikh but cut hair, yet believe in God inside me.  But there are people who are not Sikhs (Jews, Hindus, Christians, etc.) who also believe in God.  

If it was proven that there is no God, would you continue to live life as a Sikh, like keep the 5ks?

Or

Would you still believe in God, if it was proved that one of the other religions was correct and Sikhism was wrong?


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## Ishna (May 1, 2018)

I vote neither.  I reckon it's more important to be a virtuous, reasonable, cooperative person.  If that aligns with belief in God and/or the lifestyle Sikhi teaches (I perceive that it does), then all the better.



> If it was proven that there is no God, would you continue to live life as a Sikh, like keep the 5ks?


 To continue to _believe _in something that has been _proven _false is ridiculous.  As far as I know the 5ks lifestyle of an amritdhari Sikh is not contingent on the existence of God.  They simply fortify the Sikh discipline and way of life.



> Would you still believe in God, if it was proved that one of the other religions was correct and Sikhism was wrong?


 There is too much to assume behind this question to be able to answer it.  Would you like to give more context to it and ask it again?  How does any particular religion get proven as 'correct'?


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## Jasdeep118 (May 2, 2018)

Well, Sikhism doesn't say its the only true religion, in my opinion, every religion is equal in a sense and none are right or wrong. Also, whats wrong with cutting your hair and being a Sikh, it doesn't mean you are a heretic or anything, I was in the same boat as you, I am 15, but when I was younger I had religious doubt in God, and was kind've an Agnostic, but now for some reason I have become more religious again without the influence of my parents, but through myself, I believe that there is something out there as well, even though I am a "Mona" Sikh, I am still a Sikh, and I have dreams that one day once I have an enongh money to change my name to only Jasdeep Singh and might grow a turban in the near future, but everything is in God's Hukam. Let me tell you TruthSikher31, I just felt the same way as you when I was younger, and it is good to question things.


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## sukhsingh (May 5, 2018)

Ishna said:


> I vote neither.  I reckon it's more important to be a virtuous, reasonable, cooperative person.  If that aligns with belief in God and/or the lifestyle Sikhi teaches (I perceive that it does), then all the better.
> 
> To continue to _believe _in something that has been _proven _false is ridiculous.  As far as I know the 5ks lifestyle of an amritdhari Sikh is not contingent on the existence of God.  They simply fortify the Sikh discipline and way of life.
> 
> There is too much to assume behind this question to be able to answer it.  Would you like to give more context to it and ask it again?  How does any particular religion get proven as 'correct'?


I'm sikh and I don't believe in God


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## Ishna (May 5, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm sikh and I don't believe in God



Did you mean to reply to me, or to @Truthsikher31 ?


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## sukhsingh (May 6, 2018)

Ishna said:


> Did you mean to reply to me, or to @Truthsikher31 ?


Yes apologies it was to the original post by @Truthsikher31


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## Harry Haller (May 7, 2018)

Truthsikher31 said:


> To be a Sikh, you pretty much believe in the existence of God.


define God, do you mean a beardy in sandals with a solemn look on his face? if so, nope I do not believe in God


Truthsikher31 said:


> But people will argue how to be a Sikh,


people will argue about anything and everything


Truthsikher31 said:


> like I'm Sikh but cut hair, yet believe in God inside me.


I do believe that is their right


Truthsikher31 said:


> But there are people who are not Sikhs (Jews, Hindus, Christians, etc.) who also believe in God.


Jews and Christians believe in an Abrahamic God, this God has a human like personality and human like form,according to the respective religious manuscripts, it has anger, rage, love, jealousy, the Hindu God is however more of an ultimate reality, without the human personality and form, so clearly they do not believe in the same God.


Truthsikher31 said:


> If it was proven that there is no God


which God, the human one, or the ultimate reality one


Truthsikher31 said:


> would you continue to live life as a Sikh, like keep the 5ks?


there is much more to being a Sikh than 'keeping' the 5k's, some Sikhs live by the 5k's without even keeping them, some keep them without living by them


Truthsikher31 said:


> Would you still believe in God, if it was proved that one of the other religions was correct and Sikhism was wrong?


again, which God, if say Christianity were proven, and God had a human form with human emotions, would I believe in him, would I follow him? no probably not, I would see such a God as more of a Devil in disguise and would carry on living by Sikh principles


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## Truthsikher31 (May 8, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> define God, do you mean a beardy in sandals with a solemn look on his face? if so, nope I do not believe in God
> 
> people will argue about anything and everything
> 
> ...



I don't believe in God, the Christian human form version or the Sikh belief there is a cosmic entity with a consciousness.  Ok today's generation of Sikhs have a broader thinking when coming to God, but in the 1600s till probably last 20 years,  you were. Sikh, practiced sikhi because it's what the gurus taught and left behind, and they claim to get it from God.  Guru garanth sahib has its definition of God being no shape or form, no gender, (yet even in sikhi they refer God as a him).  So if you practice sikhism its cuz you believe in God.

I was just giving an ex of what people argue when defining what makes a Sikh ( like cutting hair). Obviously there's more but hair is always a crowd favorite to argue over.

I'm saying if God in general is proven wrong. Like if science were to prove how we were created,  and that it wasn't s some abrahamic version or some hindu diety, that there was no creator,  and we were created by evolution or whatever. 
Isn't this the only reason God exists, mankind needs a reason as to why we are,  it needs a an unexplainable reason as to how we came about.  But if we can prove how we came to existence, then wouldn't it render all religions false since they are created on the basis of God.  

Most Sikhs will defend that sikhi doesn't teach about a physical God. Like I said before. No shape,or form.   But if we pray to him,  you'll get everything.  "Rab da naam le oh" like just say his name when doing simran and you'll get everything,  inner and outer.   

I find it more n more disgusting how people thank God for this n that. Like in a hurricane, people lose their homes and lives. Yet you'll see the survivors being interviewed, saying "thank God our home is ok,  and nothing happened to us". Really?!?!  He saves a select number n let's the rest suffer?  If God is all powerful why not protect his beloved creations. 
There's a scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson who said something very interesting.  Why a would a supreme being like God create a world and universe that is trying to kill us.  On earth we have a plague viruses, natural disasters, and if we do survive that,  then space is our ultimate death.
So regardless of what God you believe in, if God is true is he all powerful or all good.  Because it can't be both. 

Sorry for the rambling but if you do believe in God, could you please share why.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 8, 2018)

Truthsikher31 said:


> I don't believe in God, the Christian human form version or the Sikh belief there is a cosmic entity with a consciousness.  Ok today's generation of Sikhs have a broader thinking when coming to God, but in the 1600s till probably last 20 years,  you were. Sikh, practiced sikhi because it's what the gurus taught and left behind, and they claim to get it from God.  Guru garanth sahib has its definition of God being no shape or form, no gender, (yet even in sikhi they refer God as a him).  So if you practice sikhism its cuz you believe in God.
> 
> I was just giving an ex of what people argue when defining what makes a Sikh ( like cutting hair). Obviously there's more but hair is always a crowd favorite to argue over.
> 
> ...



Truthsikher31,

Guru  Fateh

I have been reading your tirade laden posts against Sikhi since my only post to you which said "Sikhi is not a religion and there is no God in Sikhi either the way both are considered in other religions"  made you upset for the reasons only known to you.

If you have a counter argument then please present it.

Almost all of your posts are about the Abrahamic religions that you think belong to Sikhi which they don't. Nothing you have said so far does. Sadly, your disdain towards Sikhi shows your personal hatred laced with ignorance about Sikhi in which you were born in.

If I were you I would ask the questions about Sikhi in order to learn rather than talking ill about it which defeats the purpose of learning but rather more ire for naught.


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## Truthsikher31 (May 9, 2018)

Your take is my posts are hatred towards Sikhi, fare enough.  But you're just like any other person on a forum like this, just being defensive.  If I used the Abrahamic religions, its because they have a history that came way before Sikh history.  Ya sure religions like Hinduism also date back 1000s of years, but really? really?  Their version of God or Gods has any credit?  Elephants and multi-armed woman?  I don't give credit to the Abrhamic religions either.  They don't have any credit, just based on old texture.  Rapture/judgement day.  Its a joke.  If the first religion was created from the word of God, then how come only a select group got the message.  Why wasn't it delivered to all across the world.  Why didn't the people living in East Asia get the same message as those in Africa or Middle East - 1000s of years ago.  My take is, and please be firm with your response - don't b.s. that all religions are right in their own way - if the first religions of world are bogus, then what credit do religions following it have.  Sikhism is about 500 years old.  That is incredibly young.  If you believe Sikhism is true, the gurus are true, their miracles are true, then do you believe in Jesus, or Mohammed?  If you think the Abrahamic religions are wrong or false - like how they came about or what they believe in, then what makes Sikhism right.  Isn't Sikhi created on the basis of a God? (and before you say No, and that Sikhi is just "a way of life" try telling that to rest of the Sikh population - that there is no God, and Sikhi is just a practice for enlightenment)

But if you say there is a god and everyone is right in their own belief that their god is the True god, then that's just lame.  It's lazy.  If there is a God physical or non-physical whatever, then its supposed to be our creator, and there can only be one creator.  Oh but wait, everyone has their own version of their God, and we have to nice to everyone's feelings.  Please.... So then what, Jesus created the whites, Bhagwan created the hindus, and Sikhs were created from Cosmic dust? 
Instead of calling me hateful, why not provide actual, real facts that you can touch and see,  Instead of hiding behind scriptures, and spiritual nonsense. 

I say there isnt a God, I cant see it, feel it, hear it, talk to it.  Most people will say they can talk to him, or feel him within.  Thats your mind convincing yourself to satisfy a belief you have.
You say there is a God, then you prove it.  Pray to him, ask him for a better world.  Ask for a peaceful world without hate, ego, and suffering.  Will it happen? No? why not.  You're a religious person, a believer, why aren't such prayers answered.
People thank god for coming out of a coma, or surviving a disaster, so was it truly God stepping in.  If so why are random people selected.  Why not save babies and kids from suffering, hunger, and birth disease.  Again if there is a God, he is either all powerful or all good, cannot be both. 

Sorry if hurts to hear such comments, guess this topic should have been posted in Hard Talk.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 9, 2018)

Truthsikher31 said:


> Your take is my posts are hatred towards Sikhi, fare enough.


Yes, and it is unfair.



Truthsikher31 said:


> But you're just like any other person on a forum like this, just being defensive.


Thanks, Ms  Cleo.



Truthsikher31 said:


> If I used the Abrahamic religions, its because they have a history that came way before Sikh history.


But, the fact of the matter is Abrahamic religions have nothing to with Sikhi.
Are you aware of that?



Truthsikher31 said:


> Ya sure religions like Hinduism also date back 1000s of years, but really? really? Their version of God or Gods has any credit? Elephants and multi-armed woman? I don't give credit to the Abrhamic religions either. They don't have any credit, just based on old texture. Rapture/judgement day. Its a joke. If the first religion was created from the word of God, then how come only a select group got the message. Why wasn't it delivered to all across the world. Why didn't the people living in East Asia get the same message as those in Africa or Middle East - 1000s of years ago.


Age has nothing to do with anything but you would not know.



Truthsikher31 said:


> My take is, and please be firm with your response - don't b.s. that all religions are right in their own way - if the first religions of world are bogus, then what credit do religions following it have.


It is a shame to notice you have no idea about any religion. You don't know what you are talking about. I never talked about any religion. Stop with your dishonesty.



Truthsikher31 said:


> , Sikhism is about 500 years old. That is incredibly young.


OK. So what?



Truthsikher31 said:


> If you believe Sikhism is true, the gurus are true, their miracles are true, then do you believe in Jesus, or Mohammed?


Thanks again for flaunting your ignorance about Sikhi and other religions.
What does "Sikhism is true, the gurus are true" mean?
Sikhi has no miracles. Too bad you have no idea about it.
No, I don't believe in either of them.




Truthsikher31 said:


> If you think the Abrahamic religions are wrong or false - like how they came about or what they believe in, then what makes Sikhism right.


Oh, stop with your incoherence! You are mixing apples and mangos here. I never said anything like that. Everyone is entitled to their belief system. Sikhi is not a belief system but you would not know that with your parochial mindset.



Truthsikher31 said:


> Isn't Sikhi created on the basis of a God?


Define God as per Sikhi first so we can move along.



Truthsikher31 said:


> (and before you say No, and that Sikhi is just "a way of life" try telling that to rest of the Sikh population - that there is no God, and Sikhi is just a practice for enlightenment)


You have a fertile imagination. Sorry to burst your bubble mate your incoherence makes no sense. Please give it another shot. And stop acting like Ms Cleo all the time.



Truthsikher31 said:


> But if you say there is a god and everyone is right in their own belief that their god is the True god, then that's just lame.


Sorry to disappoint you again but your babble makes no sense.



Truthsikher31 said:


> It's lazy. If there is a God physical or non-physical whatever, then its supposed to be our creator, and there can only be one creator. Oh but wait, everyone has their own version of their God, and we have to nice to everyone's feelings. Please.... So then what, Jesus created the whites, Bhagwan created the hindus, and Sikhs were created from Cosmic dust?


Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about



Truthsikher31 said:


> Instead of calling me hateful, why not provide actual, real facts that you can touch and see, Instead of hiding behind scriptures, and spiritual nonsense.


Honesty doesn't seem to be your forte and you flaunt this trait of yours quite gallantly I must say. I never called you hateful.



Truthsikher31 said:


> I say there isnt a God, I cant see it, feel it, hear it, talk to it. Most people will say they can talk to him, or feel him within. Thats your mind convincing yourself to satisfy a belief you have.


OK. What's your point?



Truthsikher31 said:


> You say there is a God, then you prove it. Pray to him, ask him for a better world. Ask for a peaceful world without hate, ego, and suffering. Will it happen? No? why not. You're a religious person, a believer, why aren't such prayers answered.


Why so incoherent again?



Truthsikher31 said:


> People thank god for coming out of a coma, or surviving a disaster, so was it truly God stepping in. If so why are random people selected. Why not save babies and kids from suffering, hunger, and birth disease. Again if there is a God, he is either all powerful or all good, cannot be both.


Again, what are you talking about?
What does all this have to do with our conversation?



Truthsikher31 said:


> Sorry if hurts to hear such comments, guess this topic should have been posted in Hard Talk.



Sorry, you feel hurt.


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## sukhsingh (May 9, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> But, the fact of the matter is Abrahamic religions have nothing to with Sikhi.
> Are you aware of that?



I don't think that is entirely accurate.. abrahamic religions and very relevant to sikhi and understanding them contextualizes sikhi


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## Tejwant Singh (May 9, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I don't think that is entirely accurate.. abrahamic religions and very relevant to sikhi and understanding them contextualizes sikhi



Please elaborate your thoughts with tangible examples from the respective scriptures to prove your point so we can learn from it.
Thanks


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## sukhsingh (May 9, 2018)

Koi bole ram ram Koi khuda
Sikhi in its rejection of the exclusivity and exceptionalism articulated by some expressions of Islam is implicit..
And therefore is influenced by it.. just in the same way it is defined by its rejection of the caste system and is therefore influenced by'hinduism'


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## Tejwant Singh (May 9, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> Koi bole ram ram Koi khuda
> Sikhi in its rejection of the exclusivity and exceptionalism articulated by some expressions of Islam is implicit..
> And therefore is influenced by it.. just in the same way it is defined by its rejection of the caste system and is therefore influenced by'hinduism'



I beg to differ with you. Showing Oneness does not mean the influence but rather distinction.

Having said that, you have not been able to address your claim. 



> I don't think that is entirely accurate.. abrahamic religions and very relevant to sikhi and understanding them contextualizes sikhi


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## sukhsingh (May 9, 2018)

I think I did by the very fact bani references abrahamic language.


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## sukhsingh (May 9, 2018)

It is disengenuos to suggest sikhi is not informed by abrahamic religions. Guru nanak ji travelled to Mecca he must have been influenced by Islam


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## sukhsingh (May 9, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I beg to differ with you. Showing Oneness does not mean the influence but rather distinction.
> 
> Having said that, you have not been able to address your claim.


Influenced by articulating a transcendence of those concepts


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## Tejwant Singh (May 9, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I think I did by the very fact bani references abrahamic language.



Just referring to a religion/s does not mean 


> *abrahamic religions* and *very relevant* *to sikhi* and *understanding them contextualizes sikhi*



One needs theological similarities to prove one's claim like yours.

As far as the caste system in Hinduism is concerned, one cannot cry for *Equality* without rejecting not only the caste system but also the class system.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 9, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> It is disengenuos to suggest sikhi is not informed by abrahamic religions. Guru nanak ji travelled to Mecca he must have been influenced by Islam



Now you are talking about something else altogether I am afraid. Information is the basic thing to carve a different path.

Having said that, you are trying the same trick as you did in the other thread where your distorted and edited my thought.

Please read the whole discussion and try to contextualise it. Do not pick and choose some sentences which is disingenuous.


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## sukhsingh (May 10, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Now you are talking about something else altogether I am afraid. Information is the basic thing to carve a different path.
> 
> Having said that, you are trying the same trick as you did in the other thread where your distorted and edited my thought.
> 
> Please read the whole discussion and try to contextualise it. Do not pick and choose some sentences which is disingenuous.


I'm sorry but I think you are misreading my assertion.. I don't say that they are similar. But rather the distinction is itself a demonstration of difference.. by explicitly rejecting the ideas associated with abrahamic religions is in itself a implicit recognition of those ideas.. 

By saying 'that's not what I believe' inherently demonstrates a recognition of the'other' and therefore show's influence.. you conflating my use of the term influence to mean sikhi is a derivative of abrahamic religions which is not at all what I am saying


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## sukhsingh (May 10, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Now you are talking about something else altogether I am afraid. Information is the basic thing to carve a different path.
> 
> Having said that, you are trying the same trick as you did in the other thread where your distorted and edited my thought.
> 
> Please read the whole discussion and try to contextualise it. Do not pick and choose some sentences which is disingenuous.


Your original assertion was that abrahamic religions have nothing to do with sikhi.. being a pedant I took exception to that articulation..  since clearly sikh philosophy developed in relationship to Islam and rejected many of its manifestations.. it even uses some of the lingua franca associated with Islam to articulate it's difference.. the words Allah, Rahim appear in bani frequently.. so clearly it is relevant and guru sahib's were aware of abrahamic religions


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## Tejwant Singh (May 10, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm sorry but I think you are misreading my assertion.. I don't say that they are similar. But rather the distinction is itself a demonstration of difference.. by explicitly rejecting the ideas associated with abrahamic religions is in itself a implicit recognition of those ideas..
> 
> By saying 'that's not what I believe' inherently demonstrates a recognition of the'other' and therefore show's influence.. you conflating my use of the term influence to mean sikhi is a derivative of abrahamic religions which is not at all what I am saying



I am sorry, I have no idea what you are implying.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 10, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> Your original assertion was that abrahamic religions have nothing to do with sikhi.. being a pedant I took exception to that articulation..  since clearly sikh philosophy developed in relationship to Islam and rejected many of its manifestations.. it even uses some of the lingua franca associated with Islam to articulate it's difference.. the words Allah, Rahim appear in bani frequently.. so clearly it is relevant and guru sahib's were aware of abrahamic religions



I don't think I changed it. It still remains the original assertion. I am sorry, I never said Guru Nanak did not know anything about the Abrahamic religions. They are parts of the SGGGS, our only Guru.


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## sukhsingh (May 10, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I don't think I changed it. It still remains the original assertion. I am sorry, I never said Guru Nanak did not know anything about the Abrahamic religions. They are parts of the SGGGS, our only Guru.


Fair enough maybe we are talking cross purposes


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## Sikhilove (May 12, 2018)

Truthsikher31 said:


> To be a Sikh, you pretty much believe in the existence of God.  But people will argue how to be a Sikh, like I'm Sikh but cut hair, yet believe in God inside me.  But there are people who are not Sikhs (Jews, Hindus, Christians, etc.) who also believe in God.
> 
> If it was proven that there is no God, would you continue to live life as a Sikh, like keep the 5ks?
> 
> ...



Truth comes first.

Which is why Nanak shunned the false aspects of the religion he was born into, regardless of angering his parents, family members and community. Why Satguru Gobind Ji and his kids refused to become muslim regardless of being faced with torture and death.

They shunned false religious aspects and followed the Truth- which is God.

Now people have attempted to turn Truth(God) into a money making excuse ('Sikhs using Guruwarras as a business, the false schemes, politics, fights, ego of outer dress and uniform instead of practicing internal purity and more), filled it with rituals and ego and tried to ruin what the Gurus gave up their lives to preserve.

So Truth Seekers have had to again, shun the rubbish and follow the Truth.


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## chazSingh (Jun 2, 2018)

I don't think it's that important if you believe in God..a creative force...waheguru...allah..or whatever you want to call it...

One thing you know for sure is that YOU exist...so you have something to investigate lol...

Personally I think it's more important you start to investigate who YOU are...WHAT you are...from a physical perspective and then beyond...

Are you just a physical body...blood/organs etc...what about your consciousness...does it die with the body...etc etc..do you cease to exist without the body...

Thankfully I found through Sikh it is possible to really investigate it...

Know yourself and you.ll come to understand the rest i.e the creative force...the universe...beyind...everythjng...


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## Truthsikher31 (Jun 3, 2018)

chazSingh said:


> I don't think it's that important if you believe in God..a creative force...waheguru...allah..or whatever you want to call it...
> 
> One thing you know for sure is that YOU exist...so you have something to investigate lol...
> 
> ...



Chaz,

I got your part about believing in God, but when finding about yourself, in your opinion is it only through Sikhi this can be done, or can other religions be right?  And the part where you said you've found it,  I assume you're referring to the "soul".  Could you share what you found?


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## chazSingh (Jun 4, 2018)

Truthsikher31 said:


> Chaz,
> 
> I got your part about believing in God, but when finding about yourself, in your opinion is it only through Sikhi this can be done, or can other religions be right?  And the part where you said you've found it,  I assume you're referring to the "soul".  Could you share what you found?



Firstly, don't refer to the soul as being some kind of seperate entity to YOU (Ego, your temporary Character)...
YOU are the SOUL...your body is temporary...from ashes to ashed ...dust to etc etc etc ...
YOU will continue to exist once the Body comes to an end 

I guess that's one thing i learn't....well...obviously my body hasn't come to an end lol...as i'm typing this message but you'll come to know of this through first hand experience if Waheguru so wishes....

Sikhi Says stop looking for Waheguru on the outside...to look within you...
I think Jesus also said that the kingdom of God is within you....
Sikhi says that only through this human body can you have direct experience of Waheguru...the Body contains 9 physical opening...and one Hidden...one must seek this hidden door...ask for His grace to take ones attention/mind to it...

I'm pretty sure the Human body existed before any naming of religions...so our potential to have this experience has always been there...
Budhists 'look within' and seek experience...within this lifetime..
Sufi's try to do the same, in this lifetime...
Sikhi inspires one to do this...

We can all rergardles of whatever religion we call ourselves make progress in this....as long as we know what direction to look (within)....and we can do it whilst alive and in this body...
BUT, our own efforts, or perceived efforts (ego) can only take us so far...eventually we will have to submit to His will, hopefully as we seek within we mingle with the Shabad and it pulls us deeper within revealing all that there is...the ONE...

As i'm finding though, Desires, Ego, Lust etc etc grab hold of you to keep ones attention on the outer world...Maya wants to keep you focused on this world...  .....

Nevertheless, at least i know it is 100% real...and that i'm looking in the right direction...and boy is it 'out of this world'...and seemingly endless in possibilities..


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