# Pope Vs Santa Singh



## Neutral Singh (Aug 1, 2004)

*Pope vs Santa Singh* 
About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Sikhs had to leave Italy. Naturally there was a big uproar from the Sikh community.  
So the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Sikh community. If the Sikh won, the sikhs could stay. If the Pope won, the Sikhs would leave.  

The Sikhs realized that they had no choice. So they picked a middle aged man named Santa Singh to represent them. Santa Singh asked for one addition to the debate. To make it more interesting, neither side would be allowed to talk. The Pope agreed.  

The day of the great debate came. Santa Singh and the Pope sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. Santa Singh looked back at him and raised one finger.  
The Pope waved his fingers in a circle around his head Santa Singh pointed to the ground where he sat. The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine. Santa Singh pulled out an apple.  
The Pope stood up and said, "I give up. This man is too good. The Sikhs can stay."  
An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope asking him what had happened. The Pope said, "First I held up three fingers to represent the trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our religions. Then I waved my finger around me to show him that God was all around us. He responded by  
pointing to the ground and showing that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine and wafer to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an answer for everything. What could I do?"  
Meanwhile, the Sikh community had crowded around Santa Singh. "What happened?" they asked. "Well," said Santa Singh, "First he said to me that the Sikhs had three days to get out of here. I told him that not one of us was leaving. Then he told me that this whole city would be cleared of Sikhs. I let him know that we were staying right here."  
"Yes, yes and then?"asked the crowd.  
"I don't know", said Santa Singh, "He took out his lunch, and I took out mine!!!"


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## Arvind (Aug 2, 2004)

sikhphilosophy said:
			
		

> "I don't know", said Santa Singh, "He took out his lunch, and I took out mine!!!"


Singh ji da lunch might be guided by: An apple a day, keeps the xxxxxx away


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## Sagefrakrobatik (Sep 21, 2008)

I heard of this before but i think it was a Jewish leader and the pope


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Sep 21, 2008)

Neutral Singh said:


> *Pope vs Santa Singh*
> About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Sikhs had to leave Italy. Naturally there was a big uproar from the Sikh community.
> So the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Sikh community. If the Sikh won, the sikhs could stay. If the Pope won, the Sikhs would leave.
> 
> ...



The above post has summed up the SIKH/KHALSA mentality today. It is only the grace of God that Sikhism is alive. Santa Singh here represents the typical Sikh out there and the Moderators in this Forum, who are living their own cocoons, oblivious of Guru's teaching.
Sikhism is surviving by the grace of the Sadhu/Sant and Brahmgyani's in the world around us we are all* literally *enjoying the fruits of their labour and making no contribution. If you love Sikhsim then wake up out your dreams.


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## spnadmin (Sep 21, 2008)

Jios,

Ang 6 Jap(u)ji Sahib Maharaj,

this vich dhharathee thhaap rakhee dhharam saal ||


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 21, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> The above post has summed up the SIKH/KHALSA mentality today. It is only the grace of God that Sikhism is alive. Santa Singh here represents the typical Sikh out there and the Moderators in this Forum, who are living their own cocoons, oblivious of Guru's teaching.
> Sikhism is surviving by the grace of the Sadhu/Sant and Brahmgyani's in the world around us we are all* literally *enjoying the fruits of their labour and making no contribution. If you love Sikhsim then wake up out your dreams.


I fail to see how Santa Singh "represents the typical Sikh out there and the Moderators in this Forum, who are living their own cocoons, oblivious of Guru's teaching."


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Sep 21, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> I fail to see how Santa Singh "represents the typical Sikh out there and the Moderators in this Forum, who are living their own cocoons, oblivious of Guru's teaching."



Quite elementary Bhagat ji

ਭਗਤਾ  ਤੈ  ਸੈਸਾਰੀਆ  ਜੋੜੁ  ਕਦੇ  ਨ  ਆਇਆ  ॥ 
 Between the Lord's devotees and the people of the world, there can never be any true alliance.


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## spnadmin (Sep 21, 2008)

Yet there is hope for some

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
pourree ||
Pauree:
 
ਭਗਤਾ ਤੈ ਸੈਸਾਰੀਆ ਜੋੜੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
bhagathaa thai saisaareeaa jorr kadhae n aaeiaa ||
Between the Lord's devotees and the people of the world, there can never be any true alliance.
 

 ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਹੈ ਨ ਭੁਲੈ ਕਿਸੈ ਦਾ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
karathaa aap abhul hai n bhulai kisai dhaa bhulaaeiaa ||
The Creator Himself is infallible. He cannot be fooled; no one can fool Him.
 

ਭਗਤ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
bhagath aapae maelian jinee sacho sach kamaaeiaa ||
He blends His devotees with Himself; they practice Truth, and only Truth.
 

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥ 
saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
The Lord Himself leads the people of the world astray; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.
 

 ਚਲਣ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥ 
chalan saar n jaananee kaam karodhh vis vadhhaaeiaa ||
They do not recognize the ultimate reality, that we all must go; they continue to cultivate the poisons of sexual desire and anger.
 

ਭਗਤ ਕਰਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ 
bhagath karan har chaakaree jinee anadhin naam dhhiaaeiaa ||
The devotees serve the Lord; night and day, they meditate on the Naam.
 

ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਜਿਨੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaasan dhaas hoe kai jinee vichahu aap gavaaeiaa ||
Becoming the slaves of the Lord's slaves, they eradicate selfishness and conceit from within.
 ਓਨਾ ਖਸਮੈ ਕੈ ਦਰਿ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਇਆ ॥੧੬॥ 
ounaa khasamai kai dhar mukh oujalae sachai sabadh suhaaeiaa ||16||
In the Court of their Lord and Master, their faces are radiant; they are embellished and exalted with the True Word of the Shabad. ||16|


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Sep 22, 2008)

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
pourree ||
Pauree:
 
ਭਗਤਾ ਤੈ ਸੈਸਾਰੀਆ ਜੋੜੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
bhagathaa thai saisaareeaa jorr kadhae n aaeiaa ||
Between the Lord's devotees and the people of the world, there can never be any true alliance.
 

 ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਹੈ ਨ ਭੁਲੈ ਕਿਸੈ ਦਾ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
karathaa aap abhul hai n bhulai kisai dhaa bhulaaeiaa ||
The Creator Himself is infallible. He cannot be fooled even if one tries.
 

ਭਗਤ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
bhagath aapae maelian jinee sacho sach kamaaeiaa ||
He blends His devotees with Himself; they practice Truth, and only Truth.
 

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥ 
saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
*The people of the world lead themselves astray*; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.
 

 ਚਲਣ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥ 
chalan saar n jaananee kaam karodhh vis vadhhaaeiaa ||
They do not recognize the ultimate reality, that we all must go; they continue to cultivate the poisons of sexual desire and anger.
 

ਭਗਤ ਕਰਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ 
bhagath karan har chaakaree jinee anadhin naam dhhiaaeiaa ||
The devotees serve the Lord; night and day, they meditate on the Naam.
 

ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਜਿਨੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaasan dhaas hoe kai jinee vichahu aap gavaaeiaa ||
By becoming the slaves of the Lord's slaves, they eradicate selfishness and conceit from within. (they loose the "I" within)

ਓਨਾ ਖਸਮੈ ਕੈ ਦਰਿ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਇਆ ॥੧੬॥ 
ounaa khasamai kai dhar mukh oujalae sachai sabadh suhaaeiaa ||16||
Their faces are radiant In the Court of their Lord and Master,; they are embellished and exalted by the True Word of the Shabad. ||16|[/quote]


Santan Makhan Khayeoo, Shaash piae Sansar.



> ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
> saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
> The Lord Himself leads the people of the world astray; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.


The translation does not make sense. This is the world of Santa Singh. Ignorance is Bliss.

Common misconception to show that everything is his Hukam. Hukam is there to follow  but choice is also available whether to practice Hukam or not. Hope is only there if you practice Hukam

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ - Sansaaree - Worldly order
ਆਪਿ - themselves but used as himself. *Incorrect usage here.* Although "Aap" can also be used to mean HIMSELF.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 22, 2008)

<<Sikhism is surviving by the grace of the Sadhu/Sant and Brahmgyani's in the world around us we are all* literally *enjoying the fruits of their labour and making no contribution. If you love Sikhsim then wake up out your dreams.>>

ajnabi ji

can sikhism die?

yes, maybe

can sikhi die... nope sir..and that's where ur wrong


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Sep 22, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<Sikhism is surviving by the grace of the Sadhu/Sant and Brahmgyani's in the world around us we are all* literally *enjoying the fruits of their labour and making no contribution. If you love Sikhsim then wake up out your dreams.>>
> 
> ajnabi ji
> 
> ...



Perhaps you did not pay full attention to the above trabslation. Let me reiterate



> ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
> saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
> *The people of the world lead themselves astray*; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.



Sikhi is dying among the masses. The comments of this  and many other forums stand witness to this. It will remain alive only in the company of the Saints/Sadhu's and Bhrahamgyaanis. As Guru ji say that knowledge will be accessible only through HIS grace and if one is destined to recieve it. Pretending that everything "ok" is an illusion or gross misunderstanding. But no one is stopping one from living the illusion. As per the verse above it is ones own fault for leading oneself astray. Not to be blamed on God as an escapegoat.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 22, 2008)

<<As Guru ji say that knowledge will be accessible only through HIS grace and if one is destined to recieve it. >>

this is one side

God Wills and as Giveth... right?

<<As per the verse above it is ones own fault for leading oneself astray.>>

how can someone go astray if God willed him/her never to be on the "right" path?

i can see a clear dichotomy in what you just wrote above.


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## spnadmin (Sep 22, 2008)

Ek Musafir ji

This is where the hope comes in

ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਜਿਨੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaasan dhaas hoe kai jinee vichahu aap gavaaeiaa ||
By becoming the slaves of the Lord's slaves, they eradicate selfishness and conceit from within. (they loose the "I" within)

Thank you for adding to the translations -- I have no problem with your understanding of the shabad.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 22, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> The translation does not make sense. This is the world of Santa Singh. Ignorance is Bliss.
> 
> Common misconception to show that everything is his Hukam. Hukam is there to follow  but choice is also available whether to practice Hukam or not. Hope is only there if you practice Hukam
> 
> ...


Lol, I don't think so.
Page 1, Line 9
ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
हुकमै अंदरि सभु को बाहरि हुकम न कोइ ॥
Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko▫e.
Everyone is subject to His *Command*; no one is beyond His Command.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 2, Line 2
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
हुकमी हुकमु चलाए राहु ॥
Hukmī hukam cẖalā▫e rāhu.
The *Command*er, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 37, Line 14
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਵਸੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
घटि घटि आपे हुकमि वसै हुकमे करे बीचारु ॥
Gẖat gẖat āpe hukam vasai hukme kare bīcẖār.
He dwells in each and every heart, by the Hukam of His *Command*; by His Hukam, we contemplate Him.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 38, Line 19
ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਆਤਮਾ ਓਹੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਕਾਰ ॥
दूजै भाइ दुसटु आतमा ओहु तेरी सरकार ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏusat āṯmā oh ṯerī sarkār.
Those evil souls, ensnared by the love of duality, are subject to Your *Command*.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 55, Line 17
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਭੇ ਊਪਜਹਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
हुकमी सभे ऊपजहि हुकमी कार कमाहि ॥
Hukmī sabẖe ūpjahi hukmī kār kamāhi.
By the Hukam of His *Command*, all are created. By His Command, actions are performed.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 55, Line 18
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਲੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥
हुकमी कालै वसि है हुकमी साचि समाहि ॥
Hukmī kālai vas hai hukmī sācẖ samāhi.
By His *Command*, all are subject to death; by His Command, they merge in Truth.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 53, Line 10
ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੀ ਕੇਤੜਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
तेरा हुकमु न जापी केतड़ा लिखि न जाणै कोइ ॥
Ŧerā hukam na jāpī keṯ▫ṛā likẖ na jāṇai ko▫e.
The extent of Your *Command* cannot be seen; no one knows how to write it.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

I think I made my point...


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Sep 23, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Lol, I don't think so.
> Page 1, Line 9
> ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
> हुकमै अंदरि सभु को बाहरि हुकम न कोइ ॥
> ...




 Hukam is the LAW of the Dharamsaal, Law of the Realm of Dharam. You can abide by it and be regarded as a Law abiding citizen, your karmic activity will bear fruit. You can decide not to abide by the Law and be regarded as criminal, unlawful and by the Hukam your acts will be punishable for your anti lawful activities. The punishment one is subjected to is illness, diability, mental diseases, popper, humiliation etc. Any combination that will inflict life long pain to remind one of their disobedience. Now that is Hukam too.

ਪੰਨਾ 785, ਸਤਰ 12
ਹੁਕਮੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਜੀਅਨੁ ਸਚੀ *ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲ*ਾ ॥
By the Hukam of His Command, He created the earth, the true home of Dharma. 

In which 

 
ਕਰਮੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਹੋਇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
Karmī karmī ho▫e vīcẖār.
By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged. 

ਧਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕਾ ਏਹੋ ਧਰਮੁ ॥
Ḏẖaram kẖand kā eho ḏẖaram.
This is righteous living in the realm of Dharma. 

By definition Dharam means: 
*SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi   Dictionary*
(1)   ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਜਾਂ ਨੈਤਿਕ ਗੁਣ, ਭਲਾਈ, ਨੇਕੀ ਚੰਗੇ ਕਰਮ, ਪੁੰਨ ਕਰਮ (2) ਧਰਮੀ (3) ਮਜ੍ਹਬ, ਦੀਨ   (4) ਨਿਯਮ, ਨਿਆਂ (5) ਕਰਮ (ਭਾਵ) (6) ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ (7) ਵਰਨਾਸ਼੍ਰਮ ਦੇ ਨੀਯਤ ਕੀਤੇ ਫਰਜ਼, ਕਰਮ   (8) ਅਕੀਦਾ, ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ਼ (9) ਸ਼ਾਸ਼ਤਰਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤੀ ਦੇ ਮੰਨੇ ਗਏ ਚਾਰ ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ   ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ; ਇਹ ਚਾਰ ਪਦਾਰਥ 

*SGGS Gurmukhi-English   Dictionary*
*Sk. n.   Righteousness, piety, religious observance   *
  SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica,   CA, USA. 

*English Translation*
*Religion, righteousness,   duty, virtue, merit, honesty, sect, justice, characteristics, faith. *

Consider yourself the driver of your car. As a driver you know there are rules laid down for driving (HUKAM) . You can decide either to obey the LAW or be a danger to the general public or your self(Disobeying the Hukam).
So the CHOICE is yours to obey the Law(HUKAM) or NOT

We humans are creatures of duality. We sit on the fence and slide onto the side that suits us better under the situation. Yes all is under his Hukam only when we surrender to that Hukam. When we succeed it is “I” who has done it. If we fail then it was his Hukam. See how quickly we change our stance on Hukam.


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.
If anyone presumes to describe God(misinterpret),

ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26||
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26|| 

If some misinterprets bani to suit their lifestyle then there is no greater fool than him.

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਆਪਣ ਭਾਣੈ ॥ 
Sabẖ ko bolai āpaṇ bẖāṇai.
Everyone speaks as they please.

ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਦੂਜੈ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ 
Manmukẖ ḏūjai bol na jāṇai.
The self-willed manmukh, in duality, does not understand what the other is tell him.

 
So some may understand my point of view and others will not.

ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਅੰਧਲੀ ਬੋਲੀ ਆਇ ਗਇਆ ਦੁਖੁ ਤਾਹਾ ਹੇ ॥੧੧॥
Anḏẖule kī maṯ anḏẖlī bolī ā▫e ga▫i▫ā ḏukẖ ṯāhā he. ||11||
The blind person has a blind and deaf intellect; coming and going in reincarnation, he suffers in pain. ||11|| 

ਦੁਖ ਮਹਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਦੁਖ ਮਹਿ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ 
Ḏukẖ mėh janmai ḏukẖ mėh marṇā.
In pain he is born, and in pain he dies.

ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਾ ॥ 
Ḏūkẖ na mitai bin gur kī sarṇā.
His pain is not relieved, without seeking the Sanctuary of the Guru.

ਦੂਖੀ ਉਪਜੈ ਦੂਖੀ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਕਿਆ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਲੈ ਜਾਹਾ ਹੇ ॥੧੨॥
Ḏūkẖī upjai ḏūkẖī binsai ki▫ā lai ā▫i▫ā ki▫ā lai jāhā he. ||12||
In pain he is created, and in pain he perishes. What has he brought with himself? And what will he take away? ||12|| 

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
Ha▫umai mamṯā karḏā ā▫i▫ā.
Practicing egotism and possessiveness, you have come into the world.

ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਬੰਧਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥
Āsā mansā banḏẖ cẖalā▫i▫ā.
Hope and desire bind you and lead you on.

ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤ ਕਿਆ ਲੇ ਚਾਲੇ ਬਿਖੁ ਲਾਦੇ ਛਾਰ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ਹੇ ॥੧੫॥
Merī merī karaṯ ki▫ā le cẖāle bikẖ lāḏe cẖẖār bikārā he. ||15||
Indulging in egotism and self-conceit, what will you be able to carry with you, except the load of ashes from poison and corruption? ||15|| 


I hope you have understood where I am coming from.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 23, 2008)

<<ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.
If anyone presumes to describe God(misinterpret),

ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26||
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26|| 

If some misinterprets bani to suit their lifestyle then there is no greater fool than him.>>

ajnabi ji

i disagree with your translation

the whole shabd talks about people trying to interpret and explain God and God's creation.

All Guru ji convey is that complete understanding of God's ways is impossible and those who claim so are fools.

If Guruji say that knowing God's ways is impossible then how can someone say that what is "THE LAW" and what is not?


here is the shabd:


ਅਮੁਲ ਗੁਣ ਅਮੁਲ ਵਾਪਾਰ ॥ 
अमुल गुण अमुल वापार ॥ 
Amul guṇ amul vāpār. 
Priceless are His Virtues, Priceless are His Dealings. 

ਅਮੁਲ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਏ ਅਮੁਲ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥ 
अमुल वापारीए अमुल भंडार ॥ 
Amul vāpārī▫e amul bẖandār. 
Priceless are His Dealers, Priceless are His Treasures. 

ਅਮੁਲ ਆਵਹਿ ਅਮੁਲ ਲੈ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 
अमुल आवहि अमुल लै जाहि ॥ 
Amul āvahi amul lai jāhi. 
Priceless are those who come to Him, Priceless are those who buy from Him. 

ਅਮੁਲ ਭਾਇ ਅਮੁਲਾ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
अमुल भाइ अमुला समाहि ॥ 
Amul bẖā▫e amulā samāhi. 
Priceless is Love for Him, Priceless is absorption into Him. 

ਅਮੁਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਮੁਲੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥ 
अमुलु धरमु अमुलु दीबाणु ॥ 
Amul ḏẖaram amul ḏībāṇ. 
Priceless is the Divine Law of Dharma, Priceless is the Divine Court of Justice. 

ਅਮੁਲੁ ਤੁਲੁ ਅਮੁਲੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ 
अमुलु तुलु अमुलु परवाणु ॥ 
Amul ṯul amul parvāṇ. 
Priceless are the scales, priceless are the weights. 

ਅਮੁਲੁ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਅਮੁਲੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥ 
अमुलु बखसीस अमुलु नीसाणु ॥ 
Amul bakẖsīs amul nīsāṇ. 
Priceless are His Blessings, Priceless is His Banner and Insignia. 

ਅਮੁਲੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਅਮੁਲੁ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥ 
अमुलु करमु अमुलु फुरमाणु ॥ 
Amul karam amul furmāṇ. 
Priceless is His Mercy, Priceless is His Royal Command. 

ਅਮੁਲੋ ਅਮੁਲੁ ਆਖਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
अमुलो अमुलु आखिआ न जाइ ॥ 
Amulo amul ākẖi▫ā na jā▫e. 
Priceless, O Priceless beyond expression! 

ਆਖਿ ਆਖਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ 
आखि आखि रहे लिव लाइ ॥ 
Ākẖ ākẖ rahe liv lā▫e. 
Speak of Him continually, and remain absorbed in His Love. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥ 
आखहि वेद पाठ पुराण ॥ 
Ākẖahi veḏ pāṯẖ purāṇ. 
The Vedas and the Puraanas speak. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਪੜੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ॥ 
आखहि पड़े करहि वखिआण ॥ 
Ākẖahi paṛe karahi vakẖi▫āṇ. 
The scholars speak and lecture. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਬਰਮੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਇੰਦ ॥ 
आखहि बरमे आखहि इंद ॥ 
Ākẖahi barme ākẖahi inḏ. 
Brahma speaks, Indra speaks. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥ 
आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥ 
Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ. 
The Gopis and Krishna speak. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ ॥ 
आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥ 
Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ. 
Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ ॥ 
आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥ 
Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ. 
The many created Buddhas speak. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥ 
आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥ 
Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev. 
The demons speak, the demi-gods speak. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ ॥ 
आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥ 
Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev. 
The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak. 

ਕੇਤੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ 
केते आखहि आखणि पाहि ॥ 
Keṯe ākẖahi ākẖaṇ pāhi. 
Many speak and try to describe Him. 

ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 
केते कहि कहि उठि उठि जाहि ॥ 
Keṯe kahi kahi uṯẖ uṯẖ jāhi. 
Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed. 

ਏਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥ 
एते कीते होरि करेहि ॥ 
Ėṯe kīṯe hor karehi. 
If He were to create as many again as there already are, 

ਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਕਹਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥ 
ता आखि न सकहि केई केइ ॥ 
Ŧā ākẖ na sakahi ke▫ī ke▫e. 
even then, they could not describe Him. 

ਜੇਵਡੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
जेवडु भावै तेवडु होइ ॥ 
Jevad bẖāvai ṯevad ho▫e. 
He is as Great as He wishes to be. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
नानक जाणै साचा सोइ ॥ 
Nānak jāṇai sācẖā so▫e. 
O Nanak, the True Lord knows. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥ 
जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥ 
Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ. 
If anyone presumes to describe God, 

ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥ 
ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥ 
Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26|| 
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 23, 2008)

ajnabi ji

here is another shabd that explains why we should not contemplate upon defining the Laws and why God does not punish

ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
बहुता करमु लिखिआ ना जाइ ॥ 
Bahuṯā karam likẖi▫ā nā jā▫e. 
His Blessings are so abundant that there can be no written account of them. 

ਵਡਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਤਮਾਇ ॥ 
वडा दाता तिलु न तमाइ ॥ 
vadā ḏāṯā ṯil na ṯamā▫e. 
The Great Giver does not hold back anything. 

ਕੇਤੇ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ 
केते मंगहि जोध अपार ॥ 
Keṯe mangahi joḏẖ apār. 
There are so many great, heroic warriors begging at the Door of the Infinite Lord. 

ਕੇਤਿਆ ਗਣਤ ਨਹੀ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
केतिआ गणत नही वीचारु ॥ 
Keṯi▫ā gaṇaṯ nahī vīcẖār. 
So many contemplate and dwell upon Him, that they cannot be counted. 

ਕੇਤੇ ਖਪਿ ਤੁਟਹਿ ਵੇਕਾਰ ॥ 
केते खपि तुटहि वेकार ॥ 
Keṯe kẖap ṯutahi vekār. 
So many waste away to death engaged in corruption. 

ਕੇਤੇ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਮੁਕਰੁ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ 
केते लै लै मुकरु पाहि ॥ 
Keṯe lai lai mukar pāhi. 
So many take and take again, and then deny receiving. 

ਕੇਤੇ ਮੂਰਖ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ 
केते मूरख खाही खाहि ॥ 
Keṯe mūrakẖ kẖāhī kẖāhi. 
So many foolish consumers keep on consuming. 

ਕੇਤਿਆ ਦੂਖ ਭੂਖ ਸਦ ਮਾਰ ॥ 
केतिआ दूख भूख सद मार ॥ 
Keṯi▫ā ḏūkẖ bẖūkẖ saḏ mār. 
So many endure distress, deprivation and constant abuse. 

ਏਹਿ ਭਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ॥ 
एहि भि दाति तेरी दातार ॥ 
Ėhi bẖė ḏāṯ ṯerī ḏāṯār. 
Even these are Your Gifts, O Great Giver! 

ਬੰਦਿ ਖਲਾਸੀ ਭਾਣੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
बंदि खलासी भाणै होइ ॥ 
Banḏ kẖalāsī bẖāṇai ho▫e. 
Liberation from bondage comes only by Your Will. 

ਹੋਰੁ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
होरु आखि न सकै कोइ ॥ 
Hor ākẖ na sakai ko▫e. 
No one else has any say in this. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਇਕੁ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
जे को खाइकु आखणि पाइ ॥ 
Je ko kẖā▫ik ākẖaṇ pā▫e. 
If some fool should presume to say that he does, 

ਓਹੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇਤੀਆ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥ 
ओहु जाणै जेतीआ मुहि खाइ ॥ 
Oh jāṇai jeṯī▫ā muhi kẖā▫e. 
he shall learn, and feel the effects of his folly. 

ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ॥ 
आपे जाणै आपे देइ ॥ 
Āpe jāṇai āpe ḏe▫e. 
He Himself knows, He Himself gives. 

ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿ ਭਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥ 
आखहि सि भि केई केइ ॥ 
Ākẖahi sė bẖė ke▫ī ke▫e. 
Few, very few are those who acknowledge this. 

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਬਖਸੇ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥ 
जिस नो बखसे सिफति सालाह ॥ 
Jis no bakẖse sifaṯ sālāh. 
One who is blessed to sing the Praises of the Lord, 

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥੨੫॥ 
नानक पातिसाही पातिसाहु ॥२५॥ 
Nānak pāṯisāhī pāṯisāhu. ||25|| 
O Nanak, is the king of kings. ||25||


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Sep 23, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
> Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.
> If anyone presumes to describe God(misinterpret),
> 
> ...




Please refer to a spiritual teacher who can explain the Shabad to you in detail. Reading bad translations will only confuse you further.

I suggest you clarify with PK70. I do not have much time to spare. Your agreeing or disagreeing has no impact on what i have said until you are well versed with Gurbani.
Misinterpretation of bani is also bol bigard. As Bani represents the message from the same God.

It is time to understand Bani Systematically with love, respect and dedication rather than target verses for the sake of arguments.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 23, 2008)

<<Please refer to a spiritual teacher who can explain the Shabad to you in detail. Reading bad translations will only confuse you further.>>

thank you Ajnabi ji, i was not asking you to become my spiritual teacher, neither i come to this forum to seek one.

It is all pre ordained, I will meet one when God wills.

Also could you explain, what you mean by good or bad translation ?

Who sets the parameter of good or bad?

<<I suggest you clarify with PK70. I do not have much time to spare. Your agreeing or disagreeing has no impact on what i have said until you are well versed with Gurbani.>>
i hope pk70 ji would comment if he deems right, this is an open discussion and i just put forth my observations. And i agree humbly that my opinion cannot change yours or vice versa until we both speak from the same page and reference.
I also accept your opinion that i am not much well versed in Bani, though i don't know what is the Gold standard for the true understanding. 

<<Misinterpretation of bani is also bol bigard. As Bani represents the message from the same God.>>

yes it is, but the two lines you refered from the whole shabd construe diferent meaning along with the whole shabd.

Though still you are free to hold on to your interpretation.

Is Bani message from God?

this is another topic altogether.

<<It is time to understand Bani Systematically with love, respect and dedication rather than target verses for the sake of arguments.>>

yes ajnabi ji

i am trying hard to understand bani, but we need complete verses rather than situation specific interpretation of two lines.


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