# Alcohol Good For The Heart? Not Really!



## spnadmin (Dec 28, 2009)

*
*  *Alcohol good for heart? Not really
*  *Aditi Tandon
        Tribune News Service*​  

First-ever study in India dispels alcohol myths
No evidence to suggest alcohol is good for the Indian heart
Avoid sudden and excess drinking
Drinks need to be taken with full meals
 New Delhi, December 27


 Who says moderate drinking of alcohol helps the heart? The first ever study conducted in India, not yet published, now claims that there is no evidence to suggest the firmly held popular belief that a drink or two protects the heart.
Dr KS Reddy, the Prime Minister’s personal physician who now heads the Public Health Foundation of India (PHFI), told The Tribune that earlier studies in the West claimed that moderate intake of alcohol protected the heart by enhancing insulin sensitivity and elevating high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, which helps cardiovascular health.


But the claim has failed the Indian test, with the first-ever study on the subject in India showing that alcohol, irrespective of the quantity in which it is consumed, is always harmful and never protective at all. In fact, Indians drinking alcohol have been found to be at two to three fold higher risk of heart disease than non-drinkers.


Led by Dr Reddy, who recently oversaw Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s heart bypass surgery at AIIMS, the study was conducted on employees engaged in 10 major industries across India and their family members.


“We have now shown in the Indian context that alcohol does not exhibit gains to cardiovascular health. Indians who drink face three fold higher risk of heart disease. The belief that moderate drinking helps the heart is not true for Indians,” Dr Reddy told The Tribune while pointing out that doubts are being voiced in the West too about the alleged protective properties of alcohol.


In 2007, the American Diabetic Association had claimed, “In individuals with diabetes, light to moderate alcohol intake (1 or 2 drinks per day; 15 to 30 ml alcohol) is associated with a decreased risk of cardiovascular disease…”


But Dr Reddy’s study, initiated when he was still at AIIMS, looked at people in India with evidence of heart disease. “We found that people with heart disease were more likely to be drinking in the past,” said Dr Reddy, who looked at population from industries ranging from machine tools in Pune and cycles in Ludhiana to the tea estates in Assam.


“Many etymological studies in the West have shown that alcohol is good for the heart. This has something to do with the high fat intake in the food of westerners. While fat is known to increase the tendency towards blood clotting, alcohol is known to reduce the same. But we wanted to study a population where fat intake is not very high, like in India. We concluded that alcohol intake among Indians tended to fuel more electrical excitability of the heart which in turn led to fatal events like heart attacks besides de-stablilising diabetes control,” Dr Reddy said.


Indians also have a tendency to drink at festivals and over weekends. Warning that the ‘Holiday Heart Syndrome’ was extremely pronounced in India, Dr Reddy added, “Sudden and excess drinking must be avoided. Whenever people drink, they should take care to drink with full meal to delay the absorption of alcohol.”


The trend was confirmed by Dr Balbir Singh, chairman, cardiology, Medicity: “We are seeing more patients these days. It may have a relation to binge drinking over festivals. We can, however, say that the incidence of heart attacks is 20 per cent higher in winter.”


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## roopsidhu (Jun 21, 2010)

SSA,
Surely alcohal can not be good for health, wealth or family life. Researchs are saying it now but gurbani has stated it since begining. Let the scientist and researches do there researches ultimatly they are going to reach to the conclusions which gurbani has already concluded.
Roopsidhu


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## stanelyshane (Sep 24, 2010)

When there is the stone problem then doctor prescribe the alcohol based medication. To take the alcohol in limits is helpful in all way. I take it for the health not for the enjoyment.


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## BazGrewal (Sep 24, 2010)

I honestly don't believe that alcohol or other intoxicants can be good for your health at all.


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## Shanger (Nov 19, 2010)

There are plenty more credible studies which suggest that alcohol in moderation IS good for you, such as red wine, which relaxes the blood vessels allowing the heart to work less hard pumping blood.


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## findingmyway (Nov 24, 2010)

Shanger said:


> There are plenty more credible studies which suggest that alcohol in moderation IS good for you, such as red wine, which relaxes the blood vessels allowing the heart to work less hard pumping blood.



 Actually no! Those studies have been discredited as the experimental methods used were found to be flawed. It is often bad science but as it makes good headlines, such stories are popular in the media (as is a lot of bad science!). People are always desperate for a positive to alcohol....sorry to disappoint. Maybe stick to ice cream icecreamkudiicecreammunda


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Findingmyway Ji

Could not the excessive consumption of icecream also not lead to diabetes and please could you provide evidence of the flawed methods you describe or should we take your word for it?


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

Never take anyone else's word for it!! I'm glad you ask. 

Firstly you are very right about ice cream. That comment was referencing a conversation about chardi kala ice cream that was taking place at the time so it was a bit tongue in cheek!! You should eat and drink to retain a chardi kala ice cream frame of mind lol:grinningkudi:winkingmunda

The best way to analyze the studies is to look at the data yourself. If you have an athens account you can download the scientific papers about the original studies from pubmed. Look carefully at the methodology and analysis. Statistics can often be manipulated to show effects that aren't really there. 

Working in clinical research and being involved in writing reports taught me not to trust anything I read! If you look at the conclusions they do not always relate to the numbers seen very well. They also always say there MAY be an effect as it is so small.  Did they use statistically significant effect or clinically significaint effect? They are 2 different things. The 1st is mathematical and arbitrary but the 2nd is what we look for as clinicians.

Look at the methodology and recruitment carefully. Is what they are measuring really representative of a protective effect? Or is it too much of an indirect effect (often the case). Have the most appropriate patients been enrolled to reduce confounding factors? The studies often don't account for confounding factors (things that make the analysis meaningless as the effect can be due to something else that has not been accounted for). How has consumption level been measured? Is it lifelong or recent? A lot of the studies used recovered alcoholics in the teetotaller group which will affect the health of this group and make the conclusions invalid. Were enough patients recruited to see an effect?

A number of other flaws but I fear I'm not explaining this very well! Here are some links written in plain language by researchers which explain things better than me-
http://addictions.about.com/od/substancedependence/a/healthmyth.htm

http://health.drgily.com/alcohol-effects-heart.php
Even wikipedia has a section about how the effect reported may or may not be there! I have also read a report about how the research is biased as the researchers were all drinkers and keen for positive results. However, I cannot find that source at the moment. Sorry!

Hope this makes sense :sippingcoffee:


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Sister 

Thankyou I will try to read up on it ,but as my name suggests, I have plenty of other cardinal sins to absolve .

I never drink for the protective effect ,it's just something I do occasionally,mainly to fuel my dancing at parties!


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## Randip Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

Alcohol is used in many medicines eg Nigh Nurse. So as a Sikh am I commiting a sin when drinking it? It certainly impairs my senses and sends me to sleep.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Randip Singh Ji

That's not a sin ,but if you spend a night out with a nurse ,then that maybe a different matter altogether!:thx:


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

*Posts Moved From: Alcohol Good for the Heart? Not Really!*

Randip ji, I am very surprised at your question and quite dismayed by your post. There is no concept of sin in Sikhi as you know very very well. The scenario you give is also a whole different situation! The discussion is about social drinking, not medicinal. Using alcohol in its original form is not medicinal or protective despite common thinking. I am merely explaining the science to clear the myths. Medications use alcohol as 1 ingredient of many at low levels and it is taken for a particular purpose. The 2 situations are not comparable. How can you possibly compare night nurse to a trip to the pub for a beer or a glass of wine (under the misconception that it is helping the heart)?! This is what I keep saying again and again-people need to understand their motives for their actions and then evaluate whether that is in line with Gurbani. Nitpicking and excuses are very counterproductive to this process. How someone behaves is their choice but it should be chosen with understanding. I am not here to be judgmental but I really don't understand why Sikhs insist on normalising alcohol in all its forms? :dunno:

This entire thread is about the science of alcoholic drinks, where did sin or medication come in anyway??


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## Randip Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

The reason for this question is in many Sikh households the substitution for Night Nurse is Brandy 


...and Sinner ji, I prefer the Day Nurse


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

There is absolutley no such thing as "sin/SIN/Original or otherwise " in Gurbani. This concept is non-sikh and non-gurmat.

Alcohol may be an easy way..cheap way to make medicines/drugs such as cough medicines etc..BUT there are other ways and methods too...this use of alcohol is a business decision..and in Muslim Countries like mine alcohol being Haram..the Govt has funded islamic scientists and manufacturers to make and sell non-alcoholic based perfumes, aerosols, even baby medicines like Gripe Water..so it can be done - as long as the will is there.

Literally HUNDREDS of tuks and shabads sprinkled throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are IMAGES of "alcohol production" which is used by Guru Ji to show an ALTERNATIVE PREFERENCE. Page 360 comes to mind - since i was doing my sehaj paath on this page today...in the Tuks Guru Ji advises..Instead of collecting GURR (jaggery used as Base Sugar for fermentation in home made alcohol) why not collect* GYAAN* - KNOWLEDGE ??..and use *DHYAAN* - concentration to recite/vichaar His name (instead of concentrating at the boiling pot of desi sheraab )...and Put in the *Good deeds* instead of Kas (probabaly some sort of chemicals added to separate the foam)...and as the *BHathee* (fire ) put in the *PREM* - LOVE for HIM..and watch the AMRIT of His Naam percolate and drip drop by drop....( as the alcohol drips drop by drop).

Looking at this IMAGERY of a Bhathee (in English?) in the Sugar cane field ( Illegal bhatees like this can still be seen in Punjab fields today for desi ghar dee khadhee hoi RROORREE Marka ), it is clear Guru Nanak Ji was well aware of how alcohol is manufactured and here He is trying to persuade the "Ahluwalliah - sherab manufacturer ) to change his ways and STOP making this false intoxicant and begin using the REAL INTOXICANT of Naam-prem-good deeds-amrit and enjoyment. 

ALCOHOL whether in drop or gallon is a clear NO NO NO in Gurmatt. Period.

When my late dad was diagnosed as having suffered his first of 3 heart attacks Mycardial infarction.. the doctor advised him to begin taking a glass of wine a day... and he could live longer... dad told him... I haven't touched a drop all my life... WHY should I start NOW that my life is coming to an END ?? dad lived on for another 15 years... and two more heart attacks - no bypasses or angioplasty for him either... as that would entail beadbi of kesh shaving chest etc...and the final mycardial infarction was massive... but he went happily doing his sukhmani sahibs and anand sahibs till the last breath. Its a Fallacy that a glass of alcohol may have added years... but what about his self respect ?? He did add 15 years..but maintaining his self respect and dignity of maintaining his discipline rehat and not compromising these. I respect him more for this.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 16, 2011)

Gyaniji, 

Your father sounds like my grandfather! I have a similar story. 

Sorry to go off here at a tangent, but is cutting hair for an operation beadbi?

thank you


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gyaniji,
> 
> Your father sounds like my grandfather! I have a similar story.
> 
> ...



Not allowing the doc to cut/shave for an operation was his personal decision. It was OK for when he broke his left arm at the wrist in an accident and the surgeon was also a Sikh, and his Gurbani student to boot !! That op went all ok...arm was in plaster (those days that was the ebst way and the damn plaster was ON for months and months...Ha Ha..Then years later he broke his right arm in another accident..again same surgeon..same result. Heat attack was in a different town..different surgeon..they said we cnat take the "risk"...my dad said..I CAN. Thank You...and went on to live....for another 15 years with blockages...and all intact..but improved diet and longer walks etc..he was happy.

2. For ordinary folks...you may allow cutting/shaving..example for childbirth..open heart surgery..broken limbs etc etc..and then you may appear before the Five (Panj Piayaras) during an Amrti sanchaar, inform them about this and take it form there...Such things happen and are allowed..we are not die hard purists..not everyone at least...my dad was one of a kind...


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 17, 2011)

Dear Gyani Ji ,Finding my way Ji

Visa Vee Sin I looked up english translation of "sinner" as in for example "purifier of the sinners" and there were over two entries ,I have posted a few,as relevant in a roundabout sort of way to the topic.  <TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 2, Line 15
ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
कीटा अंदरि कीटु करि दोसी दोसु धरे ॥
Kītā anḏar kīt kar ḏosī ḏos ḏẖare.
Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible *sinner*s would hold you in contempt.
*Guru Nanak Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 4, Line 4
ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
असंख पापी पापु करि जाहि ॥
Asaŉkẖ pāpī pāp kar jāhi.
Countless *sinner*s who keep on sinning.
*Guru Nanak Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 87, Line 3
ਜਿਥੈ ਓਹੁ ਜਾਇ ਤਿਥੈ ਓਹੁ ਸੁਰਖਰੂ ਉਸ ਕੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਡਿਠੈ ਸਭ ਪਾਪੀ ਤਰਿਆ ॥
जिथै ओहु जाइ तिथै ओहु सुरखरू उस कै मुहि डिठै सभ पापी तरिआ ॥
Jithai oh jā▫e ṯithai oh surkẖarū us kai muhi diṯẖai sabẖ pāpī ṯari▫ā.
Wherever he goes, he is recognized as honorable. Seeing his face, all *sinner*s are saved.
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 89, Line 17
ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਓ ਧਰਮੀਆ ਕਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਕਉ ਡੰਡੁ ਦੀਓਇ ॥੧੬॥
जैकारु कीओ धरमीआ का पापी कउ डंडु दीओइ ॥१६॥
Jaikār kī▫o dẖarmī▫ā kā pāpī ka▫o dand ḏī▫o▫i. ||16||
He honors the righteous and punishes the *sinner*s. ||16||
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 90, Line 14
ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਰੁ ਹਾਰਦਾ ॥
सचा साहिबु सचु निआउ पापी नरु हारदा ॥
Sacẖā sāhib sacẖ ni▫ā▫o pāpī nar hārḏā.
True is the Master, and True is His Justice; only the *sinner*s are defeated.
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 91, Line 1
ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥
पापीआ नो न देई थिरु रहणि चुणि नरक घोरि चालिअनु ॥
Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an.
He does not give the *sinner*s any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 93, Line 16
ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੁੰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पतित पावन नामु कैसे हुंता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Paṯiṯ pāvan nām kaise hunṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of *sinner*s'? ||1||Pause||
*Devotee Ravidas*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 137, Line 2
ਦੀਨਾ ਨਾਥ ਦੈਆਲ ਦੇਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
दीना नाथ दैआल देव पतित उधारणहारु ॥
Ḏīnā nāth ḏai▫āl ḏev paṯiṯ uḏẖāraṇhār.
He is the Patron of the poor, the Merciful, Luminous Lord, the Redeemer of *sinner*s.
*Guru Arjan Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 138, Line 13
ਜੋ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਧਰਮ ਨਾਉ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਾਪਿ ਕਮਾਣੈ ਪਾਪੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥
जो धरमु कमावै तिसु धरम नाउ होवै पापि कमाणै पापी जाणीऐ ॥
Jo ḏẖaram kamāvai ṯis ḏẖaram nā▫o hovai pāp kamāṇai pāpī jāṇī▫ai.
One who lives righteously is known as righteous; one who commits sins is known as a *sinner*.
*Guru Angad Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 153, Line 5
ਹਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਏਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
हउ पापी तूं निरमलु एक ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ha▫o pāpī ṯūŉ nirmal ek. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I am a *sinner* - You alone are pure. ||1||Pause||
*Guru Nanak Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 163, Line 13
ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਥਰ ਡੂਬਦੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
पापी पाथर डूबदे गुरमति हरि तारे ॥
Pāpī pāthar dūbḏe gurmaṯ har ṯāre.
The *sinner*s sink like stones; through the Guru's Teachings, the Lord carries us across.
*Guru Amar Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 167, Line 5
ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
मेरे राम हम पापी सरणि परे हरि दुआरि ॥
Mere rām ham pāpī saraṇ pare har ḏu▫ār.
O my Lord, I am a *sinner*; I have come to Your Sanctuary, and fallen at Your Door, Lord.
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 167, Line 7
ਹਮ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਰਾਖੇ ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਦੀਓ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਛਡਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
हम अपराधी राखे गुर संगती उपदेसु दीओ हरि नामु छडावै ॥२॥
Ham aprāḏẖī rākẖe gur sangṯī upḏes ḏī▫o har nām cẖẖadāvai. ||2||
I am a *sinner*, saved only by the Company of the Guru. He has bestowed the Teachings of the Lord's Name, which saves me. ||2||
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 167, Line 8
ਹਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਈ ਰਾਖੈ ਜੈਸੇ ਹਮ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਛਡਾਇ ॥
हम जैसे अपराधी अवरु कोई राखै जैसे हम सतिगुरि राखि लीए छडाइ ॥
Ham jaise aprāḏẖī avar ko▫ī rākẖai jaise ham saṯgur rākẖ lī▫e cẖẖadā▫e.
Can anyone else save a *sinner* like me? The True Guru has protected and saved me.
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 17, 2011)

Dear Gyani Ji ,Finding my way Ji

Visa Vee Sin, I looked up english translation of "sinner" as in for example "purifier of the sinners" and there were over two hundred entries ,I have posted a few,and most of the instruction against alcohol was referring to the drunk (to alcohol abuse) rather than medicinal or social utility . <TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 252, Line 9
ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ ਮਾਤੇ ॥
अह्मबुधि माइआ मद माते ॥
Ahaŉ▫buḏẖ mā▫i▫ā maḏ māṯe.
they are *drunk* with the wine of egotistical intellect and Maya.
*Guru Arjan Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 311, Line 11
ਓਹ ਆਲੁ ਪਤਾਲੁ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਜਿਉ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਦਿ ਮਤਵਾਲੇ ॥੧੯॥
ओह आलु पतालु मुहहु बोलदे जिउ पीतै मदि मतवाले ॥१९॥
Oh āl paṯāl muhhu bolḏe ji▫o pīṯai maḏ maṯvāle. ||19||
With their mouths, they babble on about this and that, like the *drunk*ard who has drunk his wine. ||19||
*Guru Ram Das*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 351, Line 8
ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਮਤਾਗਲੁ ਮਤਾ ॥
मन की मति मतागलु मता ॥
Man kī maṯ maṯāgal maṯā.
The intellect of the mind is like a *drunk*en elephant.
*Guru Nanak Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Page 1231, Line 5
ਤੀਨਿ ਭਉਨੇ ਲਪਟਾਇ ਰਹੀ ਕਾਚ ਕਰਮਿ ਨ ਜਾਤ ਸਹੀ ਉਨਮਤ ਅੰਧ ਧੰਧ ਰਚਿਤ ਜੈਸੇ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਗਰ ਹੋਹੇ ॥੧॥
तीनि भउने लपटाइ रही काच करमि न जात सही उनमत अंध धंध रचित जैसे महा सागर होहे ॥१॥
Ŧīn bẖa▫une laptā▫e rahī kācẖ karam na jāṯ sahī unmaṯ anḏẖ ḏẖanḏẖ racẖiṯ jaise mahā sāgar hohe. ||1||
Maya clings to the three worlds; those who are stuck in wrong actions cannot escape her. *Drunk* and engrossed in blind worldly affairs, they are tossed about on the mighty ocean. ||1||<TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 914, Line 4
ਕਾਹੂ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਅਮਲੀ ਹੂਆ ॥
काहू बिहावै अमली हूआ ॥
Kāhū bihāvai amlī hū▫ā.
Some pass their lives getting *drunk*.
*Guru Arjan Dev*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 971, Line 4
ਲੰਪਟ ਚੋਰ ਦੂਤ ਮਤਵਾਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
ल्मपट चोर दूत मतवारे तिन संगि सदा बसेरा ॥३॥
Lampat cẖor ḏūṯ maṯvāre ṯin sang saḏā baserā. ||3||
*Drunk*ards, thieves, and evil-doers - I constantly dwell with them. ||3||
*Devotee Kabir*- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>[/SIZE]


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2011)

Sinner Singh ji

My response is going to seem like I am pushing a technicality too far. However, I don't think so. The use of the English word "sinner" is a translation decision made by a translator trying to convey the meaning of a tuk to an English speaking audience. There is a problem with this. The words so translated as "sinner" do not mean "sinner."  This concept is western, and Judaeo Christian. It has little application to dharmic understanding. That is one of the reasons why many forum members become irritated by English translations. We are stuck with them, because without them, anyone who lacks Punjabi skills would be completely denied access to the shabad of Guru Granth Sahib ji. 

The meaning in each of those tuks needs individual attention because a single word, "sinner," is not quite right for every shabad in which it is used. That is why we have a rule at SPN. Individual tuks must be discussed with the full shabad, along with Gurmukhi and English. The shabad in every case gives the context for understanding this idea of "sinner." And there are better ways and words to use in translation. 

In spite of the fact that Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa M.D. has produced "the consensus translation" per SGPC, there is no consensus in the panth that his translations are consistently adequate. 

Now when I have time, and the forum software is behaving itself, i will take 2 of those tuks and demonstrate how the word "sinner" is out of place.


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## ge77inhigh (Jun 24, 2011)

well ,it will not be a sin. As a Sikh, i don't believe in ******** of sin. I think the reason Gurbani doesn't want people to drink is due to problems it can cause in people's life. Any thing relating to medical reason will never be a sin. I drink and i smoke but i focus on my actions rather than what i use. If alcohol is a sin then why not taking anti-depressant for a person who is severely depressed. Let the Catholics and Muslims worry about sins let us Sikhs focus on following Sri Guru Granth Shaib.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 25, 2011)

ge77inhigh said:


> well ,it will not be a sin. As a Sikh, i don't believe in ******** of sin. I think the reason Gurbani doesn't want people to drink is due to problems it can cause in people's life. Any thing relating to medical reason will never be a sin. I drink and i smoke but i focus on my actions rather than what i use. If alcohol is a sin then why not taking anti-depressant for a person who is severely depressed. Let the Catholics and Muslims worry about sins let us Sikhs focus on following Sri Guru Granth Shaib.


c

Guru Piayario Jios..
GURBANI is strictly for the SOUL..the MANN..the ATMA..whatever you call it.
GURBANI is NOT for the physical BODY.
Guur Ji gives ample examples of whats for the BODY and whats for the Mann...
The trouble with those prevailing theologies at the Guru Period was ( still IS ) was the MIXING of.."whats good for the BODY..with whats GOOD for the SOUL !!Guru Ji SEPERATES the CHAFF from the WHEAT !!

1. Chief mix up...BATHING the BODY..as CURE of 'sins" of the MANN !!
Guru Ji clearly declared...PHYSICAL CLEANING of the BODY is necessary to wash the OUTSIDE DIRT....IF the CLOTH is dirty..use SOAP !!..BUT SOAP is NOT the medium that will "wash" the Kaala siah blackened MANN - for that wahsing what is needed is NAAM !!
BUT MILLIONS still continue to Bathe at "holy teeraths" and hope to wash the MANN !! SIKHS also began to follow the SHEEP who were admonished by GURU NANAK JI and told categorically that bathing at holy waters is NOT the way to clean the Mann !!.

2. Among the other MISCONCEPTIONS prevalent...THEN..and NOW...is that reading paaths/granths/vedas/puraanas/koranas/mumbling holy words and counting the "mumbles" via malas/beads/automatic counters/voice controlled counters whatever...will earn the MANN merits...

3. Fasting...staying away from food..water..cutting the body..banging onbes heads on the walls/pillars/ground/claimbing hundred steps using only the knees..rolling on the ground..hanging ones arms up, keeping awake fro long periods..etc etc etc TORTURE of the BODY..to make GOD Happy/earn MERIT for the mann...

ALL these and more..are clearly CONDEMNED...actively DISCOURAGED as utterly useless for the MANN.

What is ENCOURAGED ?? Gurbani encourages a HEATHY BODY !! Exactly what the DOCTORS tell us today...Guru Nanak ji told us 500 years ago. A HEALTHY HAPPY WELL FED BODY...clean from all outside dirt..diseases..etc is called the HARMANDAR..Gods OWN ABODE !! ONLY in such happy healthy Beautiful natural Body can the MANN be Healthy Happy and HOLY.

ALCOHOL ( and related drugs) are DISCOURAGED primarily becasue these ALL ACT more on the MIND..rather than the BODY. Gurbani declares that..Alcohol is a substance that...the moment it enters the BODY...Aral-Barl ( UTTER NONSENSE) begins issuing form the MOUTH..the perosn loses all inhibitions/self control/fails to recognise his own and those who are strangers....he loses social control, talks and does actions he would normally NOT DO WHEN SOBER !!  Compare this to "meat eating"...NONE of this happens..after consuming a whole chicken..the man is neither walking crooked...he is not out of control..he is not legally disallowed from driving...he doesnt talk nonsense..his mind/mental control is not reduced in any way...the ONLY thing not quite right in this scenario is (and Bhagat Kabir Ji's Gurbani Tuks address this ) is that USUALLY those who DRINK ALCOHOL..almost ALWAYS consume MEAT as well !! I would say that 99.9% of Alcohol drinkers are also MEAT eaters.....Meat will always Go hand in hand wth Alcohol !!
The Framers of the SRM in their wisdom saw this...That is WHY..while the ALCOHOL is Categoricllay Banned..its listed as a KUREHIT that is PUNISHABLE by bestowal of PATIT STATUS. There is no distinction made that "mild" alcohol..just one drink..or social drinking..etc etc is "allowed".for "medical" reasons..etc etc.. NO JI..the BAN is 100% NO EXCEPTIONS. 
PERIOD...IMBIBE just ONE DROP..and you are PATIT. no questions.
MEAT however has an EXCEPTION CLAUSE...becasue it has a saving grace...BY ITSELF meat consumption is not bad per se..what is BANNEd is HALLAL- SACRIFICIAL MEAT which contravenes the INDEPENDENCE OF KHALSA !! Going under "hallal" means a Khalsa has to BOW to "laws/regulations" mandatory of another religion...and since the Khalsa only BOWS to Akal Purakh..this bowing is not permitted. BOWING to someone other than AKAL PURAKH makes one a PATIT.( It is stated clearly in the preamble fo the SRM that a SIKH BOWS his head to no other than the ten Gurus, SGGS and Akal Purakh ONLY.)


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## spnadmin (Jun 25, 2011)

Gyani ji

I apologize to you for following up with a thought that is not close to your standard of scholarship and common sense. Please forgive me. But I cannot help myself and need to add this.

There is nothing "Good" about alcohol. Its effects are either indifferent or destructive and harmful. DESTRUCTIVE. HARMFUL. I like what you said about "saving grace".... it works almost like a litmus test. Does alcohol have a "saving grace?" Quite the contrary. Nothing good can be said about it. Only neutral or negative things can be said about it. Gurbani is our light to a virtuous life. Such a life is our journey to Waheguru. It is a tough journey. Alcohol does not make the trip easier and in fact can make it difficult. So Guru Nanak is telling his Sikhs: That is one piece of luggage you want to leave by the side of the road. Nothing is in that suitcase that is of any benefit to you. You can dispense with it.

I am again amazed, in thinking about the issue of this thread, at the brilliance of Guruji. We are never beaten down by demoralizing speeches in Gurbani. We are given instead encouragement to lighten our load, taught to find "spiritual ease," and encouraged to dispense with anything that has no merit, or can harm us.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2011)

ge77inhigh said:


> well ,it will not be a sin. As a Sikh, i don't believe in ******** of sin. I think the reason Gurbani doesn't want people to drink is due to problems it can cause in people's life. Any thing relating to medical reason will never be a sin. I drink and i smoke but i focus on my actions rather than what i use. If alcohol is a sin then why not taking anti-depressant for a person who is severely depressed. Let the Catholics and Muslims worry about sins let us Sikhs focus on following Sri Guru Granth Shaib.



Gettinghighji
It is hard to read this without a slight feeling of sadness, that someone so young, and with so much potential to feel the grace of the creator, can state so directly and with pride about drinking and smoking. 

Having said that, When I was your age, I did similar things, but without contemplating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So I suppose that makes you a better man than me when I was your age. 

I admire your honesty and I hope that one day you find the same feelings in gurmukhi, and I am sure you will. I still have a way to go, but I have been asking these questions only this year, so you are in fact way way ahead of me. 

What I would say is watch the effect that intoxicants have on your actions, depending on which narcotics you use, you may find that these actions are not in fact yours, they are the actions of a person on narcotics!

But I have to admire your honesty, maybe if we were all as honest as this young man about our own individual failings, (including those that cannot be seen), then it would be easier to address lust, envy, et al. 

This person, and myself, are no more manmukh than the many men who letch at women, but deny it, even to themselves. In fact such men are worse, as they lack honesty. 

I would like to press forward the point that I agree completely that alcohol has no place in sikhism, and that in order to be at one with the creator, alcohol, I believe would prohibit that. And to anyone who would ask, in that case why do you drink, when it takes you away from the guru, not closer, I would say there are many things that take you away from the guru, and many that bring you closer, I am just following my path, with a view to dumping all the bad things in my suitcase eventually

I have just realised gettinhighji, your age does not show, but I am assuming possibly wrongly you are in your early twenties


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## findingmyway (Jun 26, 2011)

ge77inhigh said:


> Let the Catholics and Muslims worry about sins let us Sikhs focus on following Sri Guru Granth Shaib.



SGGS unquestionably tells us not to imbibe toxicants so if you want to focus on SGGS then you must accept this fact.


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## findingmyway (Jun 26, 2011)

Sinner Singh ji,
It is a rule at SPN to NEVER quote single lines and focus on just the  literal translation. The structure of a shabad is to develop ideas  through it so the final lesson makes sense. By taking a single line out  of context, the message gets lost. I would also encourage you to give  your own undertsanding of the shabad and what it actually means rather  than just posting a translation.

Sinner has been dealt with brilliantly by Spnadmin ji so I'll stick to  the drunk part in this post. Am short of time today so will comeback and  post about the actual shabads another day. If you want to tackle of  those you quoted from in particular then feel free to repost the entire  shabad in Gurmukhi and English, with ang no and your understanding as  that will make an easier starting point for discussion.

Your argument is alcohol is ok as long as you don't get drunk. However,  I'm sure you know from experience that sometimes even 1 drink is enough  to make a person drunk! I'm sure you also know from experience that when  you go out socially and drink it is very hard to stick to just 1  drink!! There is social pressure of having more and the 1st drink lowers  your inhibitions. If you really are only there socially then why not  have a soft drink in your glass or bottle? If 1 drink was completely  safe then why do some countries have 0 alcohol limit? Romania, Brazil,  Canada (for new drivers), Hungary and Czech Republic among others  recognise that even minute traces of alcohol can cause problems. Medical  professions do not allow staff to have a single drop while working as  they recognise that it can impair judgment.

I can give an addict (though they might not admit they are) as many good  reasons as I can for not drinking and they will always come back with  but but but. Let's turn things around. Sikhism teaches us to be  reposnsible and think about all our actions. So let's try and understand  why anyone drinks alcohol? The common reasons (an my rebuttal) are:
1) To be sociable
If it really is only for social reasons then why not go along and have a  soft drink? What difference does the content of your glass make?

2) To lose some inhibitions
3) To get drunk and lose senses
Both of these reasons are not compatible with a Sikhi lifestyle. Gurbani  tells us to always keep hold of our senses so that we can always behave  responsibly and not cause harm. Only by keeping hold of our senses can  we even try to combat the 5 chor that are acting as barriers to stop us  feeling a connection to Waheguru.

4) Peer pressure
Sikhs are taught to have immense inner strength. We are taught to  interact with the world and live in it but without being touched by the  negative influences.

5) Stress relief or escapism
It's only a short term fix and can have the opposite effects in some  cases. Longterm, it provides no stress relief and will add to problems  (including financial!).


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## spnadmin (Jul 1, 2011)

Sinner Singh ji, Many if not most of the contributions you have made to SPN have been welcomed, and I have personally thanked you for them. In addition, leaders here have made that extra effort to help with technical issues as they arose without grumbling. For the most part we have not had negative interactions with you.

I need to point out for everyone that free speech, however much it stirs debate, is not always good for debate. Free speech is always a conditional right, conditions determined according to the rules that govern civil interactions. In a forum these interactions are governed by Terms of Service. Some, if not most Sikh forums pre-approve comments before they can be posted. Others pre-approve for new members as in a probationary period. This forum does not pre-approve anything anyone prints and then admin or moderators review daily and decide whether TOS is violated. If so, then editing or deletions are made.

There is one Sikh forum, very well known, where pre-moderation was dropped in favor of our model. In a few months the moderators felt the need to go back to the earlier approach, particularly on discussions affecting fundamentals of Sikh belief. 

Of course when "my" comments are deleted it does sting. That has also happened to me from time to time. There have been instances when my comments were not published by email groups. I did not like it either. So I know how it feels. 

So far none of the moderators have asked me to reconsider my deletions. And we have to think always of the effects that comments have on all of our readers, not just those who favor alcohol or those who do not. 

I hope my words make it clear that some one has to be in charge of deciding when the limits on free speech have been reached.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 1, 2011)

"So far none of the moderators have asked me to reconsider my deletions. And we have to think always of the effects that comments have on all of our readers, not just those who favor alcohol or those who do not. "

I am going to say that anyone who drinks, and calls himself a sikh, is no worse than anyone who letches at women. I think the fundamental difference is the feeling related to letching or drinking. By all means have a drink if that is what you wish, and, I drink myself sometimes, but speaking for the sikh drinking community, let us not try and justify what we do, anymore than a letch can justify what he does. 

To any sikh who thinks he can enjoy a drink, have the latest bollywood haircut, etc and still find the union of the creator, no, sorry, you cannot, you will find knowledge and forgiveness, but not the ultimate prize, and the question then is, just how important is the feeling of alcohol in your stomach compared with the feeling of god welded to your heart

Alcohol is a bar to union with the creator. Simple as that. For every drink I have, I am moving away from the truth. You may well ask why do I drink?, I enjoy the odd beer, and thats pretty much it. I have my good days when I am pure and respectful, and then I have the odd bad day, when I am not so pure., in time, those impure days will cease, not because I am going to beat myself with a big stick, but because I will find understanding and wisdom so that those days become a rarity, and then non existent

To my fellow sikh drinkers, it is our choice to drink, but let us at least be embarrassed by it. 

To my brother in arms sinnerji, I think you are a wonderful soul, I see myself in you sometimes, I think that, like me, you are also full of mischief, like a young child, (someone came in for directions the other day, go left out of here, i said, then left, a bit more, then left again, and finally left again, where will i be, they said, back here, i said, but hopefully someone else will be around to give you better directions) 

Sinnerji, I sense a huge need to be accepted for what you are, drink and all, I do not think that is a huge problem for anyone, BUT, having read some of the posts before they were deleted, I think spnadminji was doing you a favour, as I felt they showed you in a negative light, and did not truly reflect the intellect and wisdom you actually possess


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks Harry Ji and Spnadmin Ji for the clarification,I just feel a better system would be to let the poster edit the posting to make it adhere to TOS.

Dear Admin could you change my name to just sinner by taking the singh off, as then it will sound like my name is synergy!(sinner ji!)I wish I had known everyone uses Ji, I should have called myself Han (Ji)


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## spnadmin (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks very much for your feedback. And we will change your profile id as soon as possible. Most likely within 24 hours.


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## roopsidhu (Nov 11, 2013)

alcohol based medicin are totally different than alcohol intake. The contents of alcohol in alcohol based drugs is in the required percentages and in combinations of other many contents so that it shall not harm the human body. It can not be compared with consuming alcoholic beavages at ones own will and wish


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## hullabaloo (Jan 28, 2014)

Science has proven that excessive alcohol consumption can lead to death and disease.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2014)

hullabaloo said:


> Science has proven that excessive alcohol consumption can lead to death and disease.



I think most villages in Punjab managed to prove that one without recourse to science


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## Jed Smith (Aug 28, 2014)

Alcohol is used in some medications for some health benefits but the addiction to the alcohol and alcoholic products is not good for the health specially for the heart, liver, and lung health.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 28, 2014)

Jed Smith said:


> Alcohol is used in some medications for some health benefits but the addiction to the alcohol and alcoholic products is not good for the health specially for the heart, liver, and lung health.


 
lets face it, the addiction to anything, anyone, is not good for the health...


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## Jed Smith (Aug 30, 2014)

Jed Smith said:


> Alcohol is used in some medications for some commercial link deleted health benefits but the addiction to the alcohol and alcoholic products is not good for the health specially for the heart, liver, and lung health.


Have you any comment?


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## Lindsey (May 15, 2017)

I've drunk alcohol regularly in a social context for most of my life. I'm not going to engage with the discussion about physical health benefits or detriments, because I don't know enough to comment. It's probably bad. I am also aware that alcohol limits the ability to focus, concentrate or meditate for a few hours. 

I would say, however, that some of the warmest, most open and genuine connections, with the most unlikely people, have occurred for me in the context of drinking alcohol. For the English, anyway, it's cultural; the pub is where we meet and engage and form friendships and community. It's a great leveller, and I can't quite believe that God is so straight laced as to disapprove. Love, humility, compassion, all can occur in this context, where humans interact with reduced inhibitions. I honestly think my life would have been poorer without it.


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