# Do Sikhs Believe In Angels?



## Amerikaur (Feb 26, 2005)

I visited a friend this evening who has her home decorated with lots of Catholic imagery.  I was admiring a set of angel figurines that she had on display in her living room.  

She then asked me if my religion believes in Angels.  

I didn't know how to answer, other than "duhhhhhh...I'm not sure..."

Does Gurbani say anything about the existence of Angels?   I don't recall anything, but now I'm curious!


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## Arvind (Feb 26, 2005)

Gurbani mentions words like dev, bhoot, prait, jakh, kinnar, pishach


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## CaramelChocolate (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't think Sikhism rules out the possibility of them, but because God alone is focussed on they wouldn't be of any importance in Sikhism.


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## BabbarSher (Feb 28, 2005)

Sikshism denies the existence of Heaven and Hell.

In effect this would mean denying the existence of 'heavenly' beings like Angels and Satan.


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## Amarpal (Feb 28, 2005)

Dear Amerikaur Ji,

We sikhs conceptualise God as EkOngkar i.e. the One. In Sikhi there are no dualities. The is One and only One.

True, all entities that existed in the prevailing scripture in land of origin of Sikhi, find place in Gurbani as they have to be referred too and negated to make we Sikhs understand what is meant by One; this is what Gurbani has done.

We believe in One; no dualities.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Feb 28, 2005)

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das can say as per Akalustat that Devta,Adev,Jachh,Gardrab,turk Hindu,Nayre Nayre Deshan Ke Bhesh ko Prabhav hai.

So they could be the human races from various regions of the earth.Or could be aliens from various part of the universe or indeed great people coming to present from future or Past.

Or may be manifestations of Akal in physical form.like say as per traditions of Santan Sikhs,

Akal takes the form of Brahma to create,Vishnu to protect,And Shiva to destroy.but all is Akal.May be there is no form of these trinity but they are addresssed as an attribute of Akal as creator,Protector and destroyer.In Vedas formless God is one who does various roles.Only in Puranas there are instance of there form.

But it is not impossilbe either that Akal can not take a form of Vishnu or Shiva or Brahma.Akal can take Saguna as well as Nirguna roop.In Vachitar Natak they are termed as Brihad(all composing) and Sukhshma(Micro or real).


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## CaramelChocolate (Feb 28, 2005)

With all respect, when am I actually going to find out if Sikhs believe God can take form or not? Some say he can, some day he doesn't.


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## BabbarSher (Mar 1, 2005)

Sikhs do not belive in Avtaarvaad and this shouldnt be confused with the concept of Sargun. Sargun means that his essence is present in all that is present in the world, in effect he has all the qualities while having none, something like light being both particle and wave in nature. 

But physically God is not born of sexual or asexual reproduction and does not take a physical form .. it is impossible to think that a physical form can contain God.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 3, 2005)

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Avtar in litteral sense means to land.So birth of a child is also an avtar of him.AS soul lands on earth.

Sar Guna is not Saguna,Sar Guna is short of Sarb Guna.

Sarb means all and Guna means quality.So as in Sanskrit language,Guna can be used both in plural and singular form so thats make a good case.

Sar(b) Guna is God,who is having all Guna(Qualitis) as God is inn all So all qualities are bestowed in God.So God is Nir( without) Guna(Single quality).

Then come concept of Saguna Sa(with) Guna(Qualitie(s)),There are entieis which have limited qualities of God.Like Jesus,Mohamud(PBUH) ,Rama,Krishan and not to forget Our Own Gurus and till today many great Gursikh.

Say for example Our Gyani Jarnail Singh Sahib have a quality of fearlessness.Amarpal Singh Ji have quality of sprituality with humbleness.AmritPal Singh Ji have quality of knowlegde.Babber Sher Singh Ji have quality of logic.So they are not there own but of God.

They are with(sa) qualties(guna) of God. Das here wants to say that as per his faith Khalsa is Saguna Avtar of Akal in Kaliyuga.

Then weather it is possible to think or not to think that God ,who is in atom,in Heart,in mind,in universe can not be in physical form or not,that capabilty can be provided by God.As for God there is nothing impossible.For human who think that they can do something for them it is something possible or impossilbe for God everything is possbile.Das is yet to be like God by God mercy that that can say everything is possbile by him.

But even inn human body if someone reaches the stage of Sarb Kala Samrath,All Art Capable,then there is heardly any need is left to do anything appearing to be impossilbe otherwise.Akal Bless.


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## Sher Singh (Mar 3, 2005)

i heard that Sikhs do belive in Angels. My dad like practically studies the ENTIRE SGGS, and he told me cuz i asked him that there r angels, otherwise known as "puri" or something. So i do think we believe in angels. if im proven wrong, so be it.

WJKK WJKF


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## BabbarSher (Mar 4, 2005)

Thanks for the compliments Vijaydeep .. 

and more thanks still for a very nice and logically flowing post  

Sher Singh Ji: 

I would request you to ask your father for exact quotes as it would help the cause. 

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I could find the following references to Angels and Demons in Guru Granth Sahib JI 

#1. References to Azraaeel - The Angel of Death 

Page 315, Line 4 -- Guru Arjan Dev

Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, shall crush them like sesame seeds in the oil-press. ||27||

ajraa-eel faraystaa til peerhay ghaanee. ||27||

Page 953, Line 14 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, shall be appointed to punish them.

ajraa-eel faraystaa hosee aa-ay ta-ee. 


Page 1019, Line 19 -- Guru Arjan Dev

Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, seizes and tortures them.

ajraa-eel farhay farh kuthay. 

Do the above references then mean that there does exist and actual angel Azraaeel and sikhs belive in that. 

I think to understand this we need to recognise:

The message of Guru Maharaj was not limited to a particular section of the society. It was a Universal Message for all. To get his point across Guru Maharaj used refernces to the popular current mythologies without ever compromising his message. 

If on the one hand he uses the word Azraaeel for people who were familiar with semitic beliefs and myths, he also used words like Kaal, Jamdoot and Dharamrai which could be easily interpreted by people believing in Hindu beliefs. 

Hence the world Azraael just presses home the point of death. The simple use of the word conveys a powerful message to people of semitic belifes and they are easily able to relate to the truth. 

Also if Guru Maharj belived in mythological beings such as Devs, he would recognise that they have partaken the mythological Amrit and now cannot die. However the references we find from Guru Granth Sahib paint aa different picture and suggest that Guru Maharaj never subscribed to such myths: 

Page 1267, Line 7 -- Guru Arjan Dev

Shiva, Brahma, angels and demons, all burn in the fire of death.

siv biranch asur sur jaytay kaal agan meh jartay. 

Bhagat Naam Dev Ji also says: 

Page 873, Line 17 -- Saint Nam Dev

I have been transformed from a mortal being into an angel, in an instant; the True Guru has taught me this.

nar tay sur ho-ay jaat nimakh mai satgur buDh sikhlaa-ee. 


Now is it that Bahagt Jee got transformed into an angel or Deevta as per popular mythology or is he talking about qualities that came to rest in him because of satguru's blessings. Think.. 


Please also search for the word angels at www.srigranth.org and you will get a lot of links.


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## Saheb Singh (Mar 4, 2005)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa ,Wahegur Ji Ki Fateh,
Shiv-Shakti is wat mentioned in gurbani is the fusion of spirit with matter thus combination of Nirgun and Sargun roop but does not mean that Ajuni Sabang - out of rebirth and self existant has a form .Waheguru is Infinite consiouness which goes beyond Nirgun and Sargun roop.
WBR


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## Khojat (Mar 3, 2008)

Dear AmeriKaur,

Sat Sri Akal,

Yes Sikhism does believe in Angels. There are references in the Gur Bani to such celestial beings. I am rather surprised to see how many people have no knowledge of this. The younger ones may not know but the older ones who have studied the GurBani should know.

In So Dar, Raag Asa, First Mehl Sat Guru Nanak mentions clearly two beings Chitar and Gupat who record the deeds of men. These beings are Angels assigned with this Divine task by the Creator. One records the deeds that are visible to all (Chitar) and the other records that which is hidden (in thought or hidden action - Gupat). Their names themselves allude to the tasks which the All Mighty has betsowed upon them.

There are other references to the Angel of Death. This is the Angels that, at the appointed time given by God, comes to take the soul away. The evil soul receives a blow on his head with Death's mace and the soul is bound and taken away in chains to face Judgement. 

The virtues soul is given great respect and is taken away with honour to God's Court. The name of this Angel is Az-raael. This same angel is also mentioned in the scriptures of other Faiths like Isalm and Judaism.

There are other references to Divine Beings created by God to do his bidding. These beings could well be Angels. Sikhism however, though acknowledging the existance of Angels and other Celestial Beings, does not focus much on them.

The crux of Sikhism and the core teaching of our Sat Gurus is the realisation of the Essence. The Essence of all life and all creation. The Essence is Truth, Love, Compassion, Mercy. The Essence is God himself. We are enjoined by our Gurus to search for and realise this Essence. Unlike other Faiths, the Gurbani has been specifically given to us inorder to achieve this objective. The Holy Bani is all about finding and realising God and becoming one with the Eternal.

Best Rgds

Khojat


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## Khojat (Mar 3, 2008)

BabbarSher said:


> Sikshism denies the existence of Heaven and Hell.
> 
> In effect this would mean denying the existence of 'heavenly' beings like Angels and Satan.


 
Dear Babbar Sher,

Sat Sri Akal,

Sikhism and the Gurbani do not deny the existence of Heaven or Hell. Both exist as per the Bani. However the Bani implies that these should not be our focus. Our focus and effort should be put into realising the One God. We have to find Him. In order to find Him we have to walk in His path. It is the Sat Guru who shows this path to us. All of us, even the most evil can walk on this path and be Saved.


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## pk70 (Mar 3, 2008)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> Das can say as per Akalustat that Devta,Adev,Jachh,Gardrab,turk Hindu,Nayre Nayre Deshan Ke Bhesh ko Prabhav hai.
> 
> ...


 

Sat Sree Akaal Vihaydeep Singh ji

I have been enjoying your posts, they are really interesting sometimes.
Your current post is good at explaining the word sargun and nirgun; however the question asked by Amrikaur remains unanswered though Amarpal answered it with full simplicity Let me try to say a few things in this regard as per my limited knowledge.

Answer to Amritpal is very simple “ Sikhs strictly believe only in one Supreme being and we revere Gurus who lead us to only HIM. Angeles, paryaan, bhoot prêt, devta all others have no reverence in Sikhism. Chritians unlike Sikhism strongly believe in angles same way as Hindus do in various superstitious things. In bible and Quran there are references about their existence,  Sikhs are set free from all that., in Sikh sacred Scripture Guru Grath Sahib Ji, only there are only two who are revered with high esteem,  AKaal ji and Gurus( who guide us to HIM.) References in Gurbani do not approve of any supernatural entity. About Hinds Gods or bhoot prêt, references are but in different context. Nanak panth is against incarnation Of Almighty. Let me take freedom of disagreeing with you with some of your views regarding Akaal and forms

Vijaydeep ji, Satguru Nanak set us free 5 hundred years ago, I mean free from becoming slaves of different kind superstitious things, illusions and mythological delusions. Monotheism was being practiced before him also but people fabricated some things to grind their own axes. Even today it is sorry to say that some Sikhs are reducing Sikhism to ritualism ridiculously. . Why a Sikh needs to believe in any of the above said ? Sikhs are guided to Him and should only start trying to blossom true love for Him. Why fearing from others super natural powers when you adore Him and seek refuge in Him who created the world and all galaxies.
Now come to sargun and nirgun. When understanding Gurbani, one must keep in mind the totality of Nanakian panth . Lets analyze reference in Gurbani  in this context. In GGS Ji, there are numerous examples which state that  He permeates in His creation or there is nothing without  His presence, it doesn’t mean that he has taken any form(sargun), in your context with limited quality. In reality He is beyond birth, any one who goes/went through birth cannot be Him, may he or she can be like HIM because being enlightened by His grace. Big question can bother many of us then. How can He be in him/her, you or me when He is beyond birth?. Let me give reference from GGS Ji
bwjIgr  fMk bjweI ] sB Klk qmwsy AweI ] bwjIgr sÍWgu skylw ] Apny rMg rvY Akylw ]2] kQnI 
 kih Brmu n jweI ] sB kiQ kiQ rhI lukweI ] jw kau gurmuiK Awip buJweI ] qw ky ihrdY rihAw 
 smweI ]3] gur ikMcq ikrpw kInI ] sBu qnu mnu dyh hir lInI ] kih kbIr rMig rwqw ] 
 imilE jgjIvn dwqw ]4]4] (655)


||  It is like a magician beats his tambourine, everyone comes to see the  show., it (show) goes on but He enjoys the play all alone because others play it for Him  || 2 ||   By preaching sermons, one’s doubt is not dispelled. People kept defining Him but failed. When Akaal enlightens some ones he becomes Gurmukh and he understands His play; in his heart  Akaal ji glows  || 3 ||   When the Guru grants even a bit of his Grace, one gets completely absorbed in the Lord. Says Kabeer, I am in love with Him; I have realized the Great Giver of the world,.  || 4 || 4 ||   

HE never takes form but since He created the show, every thing in show belongs to Him.
To understand His presence, take an example of air, it is every where but not seen; can be felt(realized). Some Sikhs quickly jump to conclusions and read the words as they appear instead of understanding meaning behind them. So when it is said in Gurbani “Gur meri pooja Gu Govind. Gur mera Parbrahm Gur Bhagwant……Gond Mehla 5”,  It doesn’t mean at all that Guru is Him; actually it means Guru is like Him, Vijaydeep ji, it is compliment to Guru…..” In Asa Mehla 5 “ jina n vissrai Naam, se kinehya 11  bhedh n januh mool SAEEN jehya” Who never forget Him means who are just lost in His thoughts, doubltless they are like Him. This has made it clearer why Guru was honoured by calling him(they) Guru Gobind. In this Shabad, Sahib ji is also says further that he is saved by Guru by leading him  to Akaal Ji.This happens in regular life also when dear ones are called in emotional language” you are my world, you are my everything”  While being elevated in His love Satguru Sahiban, Bhgatas ji see Him in everybody in every where because His presence is there in others and in us as well. Because Sikhism starts with “ Ikk Onkar, Sattnaam,Kartapurakh, Nirbhuo Nirvair Akaalmurt Ajuni sem” How this basic principle can be violated ?  So nothing should be thought or preached which goes against the basic principle of Sikhism. Of course He permeates in His creation. Think carefully, His creation is related to Him because He created it. And it is also His symbol. Symbol refers to attachment or a link to something. Enlightened personalities can have *only two characteristic of AKAAL JI, those are, being fearless and being without animosity, all the rest of His characteristic are strictly represented by Him ONLY.*

*HAR BISRAT SDA KHUARI   Mehla 5*

Pk70


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## Mikelall510 (May 26, 2009)

wow uneducated indian ppl
im talking about the ppl that replied to you :]

|| 26 ||
Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all? The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates
there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there. So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there. The
praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door. Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the​conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing. Shiva,

Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions,​and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You.

|| 3 || Even those who are served by the 33 million angelic​beings, at whose door the Siddhas and the Saadhus stand, who live in wondrous affluence and rule over mountains, oceans

|| 2 || The angels, Siddhas, worshippers of Shiva, heavenly musicians, silent sages, Saints, priests,​preachers, spiritual teachers and commanders.each and every one has left, and all others shall depart as well. || 3 ||

Their Banis are sung by the angelic beings,​and no one can erase them, O Siblings of Destiny! || 3 || The demon.s son Prahlaad had not read about religious rituals

The angelic beings and the silent sages long for Him; the True Guru has given me this understanding. || 4 ||

|| 1 || FIRST MEHL: Faith, contentment and tolerance are the food and provisions of the angels. They obtain​the Perfect Vision of the Lord, while those who gossip find no place of rest. || 2 ||


THIRD MEHL: Serving the Guru, the Lord is obtained, when He bestows His Glance of Grace. They are​transformed from humans into angels, meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord

|| 5 || 2 || SIREE RAAG, DEVOTEE KABEER JEE: Listen, O religious scholar: the One
Lord alone is Wondrous; no one can describe Him. He fascinates the angels, the celestial singers and the heavenly musicians;​he has strung the three worlds upon His Thread. || 1 ||

This is Nanak.s prayer:​.May my eyes behold the Lord, the Angelic Being.. || 1 || The Lord hears the anguish of the soul; He is the All-powerful and

The King of the
Angels of Death hunts down those self-willed manmukhs, over and over again. The manmukhs are false to their own selves;​they feel no gratitude for what they have been given.

|| 1 || FIRST MEHL: Neither the angels, nor the demons, nor​human beings, nor the Siddhas, nor the seekers shall remain on the earth.

The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the​devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises. Prays Nanak, please be merciful to me, O Supreme Lord God, my King. || 2 ||

The angels, the seers and​the silent sages search for the Ocean of peace, the Sustainer of the world. The mind becomes pure, and one.s face is radia

FIFTH MEHL: The ghost has been transformed into an angel by the Creator Lord.

Good enough?? lol 

GAUREE, KABEER JEE: He claims to know the Lord, who is beyond​measure and beyond thought; by mere words, he plans to enter heaven. || 1 ||

GAUREE POORBEE: Don.t wish for a home in heaven, and don.t be afraid to​live in hell. Whatever will be will be, so don.t get your hopes up in your mind. || 1 ||
 
|| 3 || He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible. The Supreme King of Nanak
is immanent and manifest. || 4 || 3 || 105 || AASAA, FIFTH MEHL: Tens of thousands of devotees worship and adore You,​chanting, .Beloved, Beloved.. How shall You unite me, the worthless and corrupt soul, with Yourself. || 1 ||
 
PAUREE: The
followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You. Uncounted are those who fall at Your​Door. Brahma meditates on You, as does Indra on his throne. Shiva and Vishnu, and their incarnations, chant the Lord.s Prai

He has 33,000,000 play-houses. His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million
incarnations. He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind,(Adam & Eve duh lol)  who then lived in paradise for a long time. || 2 || Pale
are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed. They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil. One who blames
the world, and is angry with people, shall receive the fruits of his own actions. || 3 || You are the Great Giver, O Lord; I am
forever a beggar at Your Door. If I were to deny You, then I would be a wretched sinner. Slave Kabeer has entered Your​Shelter. Keep me near You, O Merciful Lord God . that is heaven for me. || 4 || 7 || 15 ||

clever, O religious
scholar. Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been​used. It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
 
According to the Hindus, the Lord.s Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these
claims. || 1 || O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name. Please show mercy to me, O Master. || 1 || Pause || The God of the
Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west. So search in your heart . look deep into your​heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. || 2 || The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the

Any other questions I will be happy to answer :]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa 
Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh*

May GOD most High bless you*


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

Mikelall510 ji

When you joined SPN you agreed to Terms of Service. These included the requirement that you post an entire shabad with the page number. This is a rule that is in place to prevent individual lines from Gurbani from being quoted out of context so that the effect is to mislead and miseducate the forum readers.

Now respected Mikeall50 ji you have quoted more than a few lines without the shabad, and out of context. But you are a new member and so we are going to be lenient.

And also let me point out why this rule is important to your post. Some of the verses, posted without shabads, come from parts of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that were written by bhats who were Hindus. They were praising our Guru's in the language and metaphors of their religious traditions. So the mention of angels does not necessarily prove that Sikhs believe in angels but that Sikhs believe in the concepts that the bhats have written.
*
Let me instruct you not to do this again. *Thank you, aad0002


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## singhini (May 28, 2009)

I agree with sher singh...does it not say in the anand sahib da part...."pari -aah shabad gavan ayeaah"

even the angels rejoice and sing when we connect and have union with god.


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## singhini (May 28, 2009)

rwg rqn prvwr prIAw sbd gwvx      AweIAw 

page 917


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## Tejwant Singh (May 28, 2009)

I have no idea about believing in angels, but I am blessed to have three angels in my life which is no belief but a fact, my wife Harsimran of 20 years, my daughter Jaskeerat, 18 who just finished her freshman year at Loyola Marymount where she is an honour student doing double majors in International Business and European History and my son Trimaan, 13 who will be participating in his first National debate which will be held in San Antonio. TX in June in 2 catagories, Individual oratory and the other one with his partner Justin.

So one does not have to believe in angels when one lives among them.

Tejwant Singh


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## singhini (May 28, 2009)

That is beautiful Tejwant Singh.

When we allow god to flow through us freely and come from the place of peace within we are able to play the part of angels in the lives of others. 

Whenever I have been in a time of need and someone appears to help me, I always believe I have been touched by an angel as the "god" part of the person is helping me. When a child, partner, parent, friend etc expresses love towards me, again I feel touched by an angel as it is the god inside them loving me.

May we all become true angels and allow god to flow through us freely into this beautiful world.


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## singhini (May 28, 2009)

That is beautiful Tejwant Singh.

Indeed whenever I have been in a time of need in my life and someone appears to help me I always believe it is the god part of the person helping me....being touched by an angel. When a child, parent, partner, family member, friend etc, expresses love towards me it is the angel in them, the god in them loving me.

May we all become true angels and allow god to flow through us freely so we too can touch the lives of others on this beautiful planet and allow ourselves to flower perfectly.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 5, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh........

Angles were human beings like us...after reciting Naam..and reaching certain stage they become angels...same way Devtaas in Hindu...they were human beings like us....but we don't have to stuck there...our ultimate target and destiny is GOD..Waheguru...Allah...Raam (Raam here means lord..not devtaa as in Hindus) here Raam mean "Jo Sab Me Rama Hua Hai"...who himself present/inculcated in everything...trees, air, water, birds, animals, humans, ...etc...everything you see in this world...

so angles do exist..they exist in everything..everybody........... we are told to follow Guru...and not to hang in between to Angles......our Angle is God ...God is in everybody............ultimate supreme power.............who even turn Devils into Angles...

Now we have to think..with whom we want to hang with...Angles ..or God........

CHARDI KALA............


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

GURBANI DECLARES....ONLY HUMANS can Naam japp..and REACH MERGER with The Creator.
THUS Human is the HIGHEST form of Creation.
NO HUMAN BODY...NO MERGER. period.
ONLY HUMANS CAN...read Gurbani..follow Gurbani..naam japp, kirt kar..waand chhak...change their lives for the better using GUrbani TOOLS...


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਸ ਤੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਤ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ਵਾਰ ॥੧॥
  jin maanas thae dhaevathae keeeae karath n laagee vaar ||1||
  He made angels out of men, without delay. ||1||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਸ ਤੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਤ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ਵਾਰ ॥੧॥
> jin maanas thae dhaevathae keeeae karath n laagee vaar ||1||
> He made angels out of men, without delay. ||1||



AAD JI,
Gurfateh.

Nail on its head...strike !!
THOSE REFORMED HUMANS are the real and ONLY Angels Gurmatt approves....meaning one has to be a HUMAN....angel..shaitaan..murderer..saint...BUT HUMAN !!
Bhagat Pooran Singh..Mother Theresa...are ANGELS....but they are also HUMAN.
Gurbani is for HUMANS...to enable CHANGE....:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## greenjuice (Jun 8, 2009)

isn't the angel of death metioned a lot in the Gurbani? and also Chirt and Gupt are metioned..

ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਤੁਧਨੋ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਗੁਪਤੁ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਜਾਣਨਿ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਧਰਮੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰੇ  ॥
गावनि तुधनो चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणनि लिखि लिखि धरमु बीचारे ॥
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇan likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram bīcẖāre.
Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You. 

(SGGS, 8)

Bhai Randhir Singh, Sachkhand Darshan

about Gian Khand:
"In the vastness of the Realm of Knowledge numerous types of winds...
...
Numerous too are demi gods like Vishnu and avatars like Krishan as well as Shiv and Rudhar...
...
Numerous are Brahams...
...
Numerous are Indars...
...
Numerous are the she-he-deities, and numerous are the demons, rishis and silent sages..."

what is Dharam Khand:
"The world here does not refer to the world we are in. It refers to the realm of divine light, where Dharamraj, the angel of righteousness, has been installed by the Primal Being Waheguru to oversee the carriage of justice."


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> isn't the angel of death metioned a lot in the Gurbani? and also Chirt and Gupt are metioned..
> 
> ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਤੁਧਨੋ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਗੁਪਤੁ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਜਾਣਨਿ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਧਰਮੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰੇ  ॥
> गावनि तुधनो चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणनि लिखि लिखि धरमु बीचारे ॥
> ...



Let's stick to Bani rather than the writings of someone from a sect. Let's face it, Bhai Randhir's views on Dentistry leave a lot to be desired so lets forget talking about Angels.

From Page 6 the entire Shabad:

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

ਆਖਹਿ  ਗੋਪੀ  ਤੈ  ਗੋਵਿੰਦ  ॥ 
 आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥ 
 Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ. 
 The Gopis and Krishna speak. 

 ਆਖਹਿ  ਈਸਰ  ਆਖਹਿ  ਸਿਧ  ॥ 
 आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥ 
 Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ. 
 Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak. 

 ਆਖਹਿ  ਕੇਤੇ  ਕੀਤੇ  ਬੁਧ  ॥ 
 आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥ 
 Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ. 
 The many created Buddhas speak. 

 ਆਖਹਿ  ਦਾਨਵ  ਆਖਹਿ  ਦੇਵ  ॥ 
 आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥ 
 Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev. 
 The demons speak, the demi-gods speak. 

 ਆਖਹਿ  ਸੁਰਿ  ਨਰ  ਮੁਨਿ  ਜਨ  ਸੇਵ  ॥ 
 आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥ 
 Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev. 
 The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak. 

 ਕੇਤੇ  ਆਖਹਿ  ਆਖਣਿ  ਪਾਹਿ  ॥ 
 केते आखहि आखणि पाहि ॥ 
 Keṯe ākẖahi ākẖaṇ pāhi. 
 Many speak and try to describe Him. 

 ਕੇਤੇ  ਕਹਿ  ਕਹਿ  ਉਠਿ  ਉਠਿ  ਜਾਹਿ  ॥ 
 केते कहि कहि उठि उठि जाहि ॥ 
 Keṯe kahi kahi uṯẖ uṯẖ jāhi. 
 Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed. 

 ਏਤੇ  ਕੀਤੇ  ਹੋਰਿ  ਕਰੇਹਿ  ॥ 
 एते कीते होरि करेहि ॥ 
 Ėṯe kīṯe hor karehi. 
 If He were to create as many again as there already are, 

 ਤਾ  ਆਖਿ  ਨ  ਸਕਹਿ  ਕੇਈ  ਕੇਇ  ॥ 
 ता आखि न सकहि केई केइ ॥ 
 Ŧā ākẖ na sakahi ke▫ī ke▫e. 
 even then, they could not describe Him. 

 ਜੇਵਡੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਤੇਵਡੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
 जेवडु भावै तेवडु होइ ॥ 
 Jevad bẖāvai ṯevad ho▫e. 
 He is as Great as He wishes to be. 

 ਨਾਨਕ  ਜਾਣੈ  ਸਾਚਾ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
 नानक जाणै साचा सोइ ॥ 
 Nānak jāṇai sācẖā so▫e. 
 O Nanak, the True Lord knows. 

 ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਆਖੈ  ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ  ॥ 
 जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥ 
 Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ. 
 If anyone presumes to describe God, 

 ਤਾ  ਲਿਖੀਐ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਗਾਵਾਰਾ  ਗਾਵਾਰੁ  ॥੨੬॥ 
 ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥ 
 Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26|| 
 he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26|| 

 ਸੋ  ਦਰੁ  ਕੇਹਾ  ਸੋ  ਘਰੁ  ਕੇਹਾ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਬਹਿ  ਸਰਬ  ਸਮਾਲੇ  ॥ 
 सो दरु केहा सो घरु केहा जितु बहि सरब समाले ॥ 
 So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle. 
 Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all? 

 ਵਾਜੇ  ਨਾਦ  ਅਨੇਕ  ਅਸੰਖਾ  ਕੇਤੇ  ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 वाजे नाद अनेक असंखा केते वावणहारे ॥ 
 vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre. 
 The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there. 

 ਕੇਤੇ  ਰਾਗ  ਪਰੀ  ਸਿਉ  ਕਹੀਅਨਿ  ਕੇਤੇ  ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 केते राग परी सिउ कहीअनि केते गावणहारे ॥ 
 Keṯe rāg parī si▫o kahī▫an keṯe gāvaṇhāre. 
 So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਤੁਹਨੋ  ਪਉਣੁ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ  ਗਾਵੈ  ਰਾਜਾ  ਧਰਮੁ  ਦੁਆਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि तुहनो पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु गावै राजा धरमु दुआरे ॥ 
 Gāvahi ṯuhno pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre. 
 The praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਗੁਪਤੁ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਜਾਣਹਿ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਲਿਖਿ  ਧਰਮੁ  ਵੀਚਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणहि लिखि लिखि धरमु वीचारे ॥ 
 Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇėh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖāre. 
 Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਈਸਰੁ  ਬਰਮਾ  ਦੇਵੀ  ਸੋਹਨਿ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਵਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि ईसरु बरमा देवी सोहनि सदा सवारे ॥ 
 Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre. 
 Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਇੰਦ  ਇਦਾਸਣਿ  ਬੈਠੇ  ਦੇਵਤਿਆ  ਦਰਿ  ਨਾਲੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि इंद इदासणि बैठे देवतिआ दरि नाले ॥ 
 Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle. 
 Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਸਿਧ  ਸਮਾਧੀ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਸਾਧ  ਵਿਚਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि सिध समाधी अंदरि गावनि साध विचारे ॥ 
 Gāvahi siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan sāḏẖ vicẖāre. 
 The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation. 

 ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਜਤੀ  ਸਤੀ  ਸੰਤੋਖੀ  ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਵੀਰ  ਕਰਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावनि जती सती संतोखी गावहि वीर करारे ॥ 
 Gāvan jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvahi vīr karāre. 
 The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing. 

 ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਪੰਡਿਤ  ਪੜਨਿ  ਰਖੀਸਰ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਵੇਦਾ  ਨਾਲੇ  ॥ 
 गावनि पंडित पड़नि रखीसर जुगु जुगु वेदा नाले ॥ 
 Gāvan pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsar jug jug veḏā nāle. 
 The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਮੋਹਣੀਆ  ਮਨੁ  ਮੋਹਨਿ  ਸੁਰਗਾ  ਮਛ  ਪਇਆਲੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि मोहणीआ मनु मोहनि सुरगा मछ पइआले ॥ 
 Gāvahi mohṇī▫ā man mohan surgā macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle. 
 The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing. 

 ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਰਤਨ  ਉਪਾਏ  ਤੇਰੇ  ਅਠਸਠਿ  ਤੀਰਥ  ਨਾਲੇ  ॥ 
 गावनि रतन उपाए तेरे अठसठि तीरथ नाले ॥ 
 Gāvan raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle. 
 The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਜੋਧ  ਮਹਾਬਲ  ਸੂਰਾ  ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਖਾਣੀ  ਚਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि जोध महाबल सूरा गावहि खाणी चारे ॥ 
 Gāvahi joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvahi kẖāṇī cẖāre. 
 The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing. 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਖੰਡ  ਮੰਡਲ  ਵਰਭੰਡਾ  ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਰਖੇ  ਧਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 गावहि खंड मंडल वरभंडा करि करि रखे धारे ॥ 
 Gāvahi kẖand mandal varbẖandā kar kar rakẖe ḏẖāre. 
 The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing. 

 ਸੇਈ  ਤੁਧੁਨੋ  ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਜੋ  ਤੁਧੁ  ਭਾਵਨਿ  ਰਤੇ  ਤੇਰੇ  ਭਗਤ  ਰਸਾਲੇ  ॥ 
 सेई तुधुनो गावहि जो तुधु भावनि रते तेरे भगत रसाले ॥ 
 Se▫ī ṯuḏẖuno gāvahi jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle. 
 They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence. 

 ਹੋਰਿ  ਕੇਤੇ  ਗਾਵਨਿ  ਸੇ  ਮੈ  ਚਿਤਿ  ਨ  ਆਵਨਿ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਕਿਆ  ਵੀਚਾਰੇ  ॥ 
 होरि केते गावनि से मै चिति न आवनि नानकु किआ वीचारे ॥ 
 Hor keṯe gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā vīcẖāre. 
 So many others sing, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I consider them all? 

 ਸੋਈ  ਸੋਈ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਚੁ  ਸਾਹਿਬੁ  ਸਾਚਾ  ਸਾਚੀ  ਨਾਈ  ॥ 
 सोई सोई सदा सचु साहिबु साचा साची नाई ॥ 
 So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī. 
 That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name. 

 ਹੈ  ਭੀ  ਹੋਸੀ  ਜਾਇ  ਨ  ਜਾਸੀ  ਰਚਨਾ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਰਚਾਈ  ॥ 
 है भी होसी जाइ न जासी रचना जिनि रचाई ॥ 
 Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī. 
 He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs. 

 ਰੰਗੀ  ਰੰਗੀ  ਭਾਤੀ  ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਜਿਨਸੀ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਉਪਾਈ  ॥ 
 रंगी रंगी भाती करि करि जिनसी माइआ जिनि उपाई ॥ 
 Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī. 
 He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya. 

 ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਵੇਖੈ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਆਪਣਾ  ਜਿਵ  ਤਿਸ  ਦੀ  ਵਡਿਆਈ  ॥ 
 करि करि वेखै कीता आपणा जिव तिस दी वडिआई ॥ 
 Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī. 
 Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness. 

 ਜੋ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਸੋਈ  ਕਰਸੀ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਨ  ਕਰਣਾ  ਜਾਈ  ॥ 
 जो तिसु भावै सोई करसी हुकमु न करणा जाई ॥ 
 Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī hukam na karṇā jā▫ī. 
 He does whatever He pleases. No order can be issued to Him. 

 ਸੋ  ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ  ਸਾਹਾ  ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਰਹਣੁ  ਰਜਾਈ  ॥੨੭॥ 
 सो पातिसाहु साहा पातिसाहिबु नानक रहणु रजाई ॥२७॥ 
 So pāṯisāhu sāhā pāṯisāhib Nānak rahaṇ rajā▫ī. ||27|| 
 He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||27|| 

 ਮੁੰਦਾ  ਸੰਤੋਖੁ  ਸਰਮੁ  ਪਤੁ  ਝੋਲੀ  ਧਿਆਨ  ਕੀ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਬਿਭੂਤਿ  ॥ 
 मुंदा संतोखु सरमु पतु झोली धिआन की करहि बिभूति ॥ 
 Munḏa sanṯokẖ saram paṯ jẖolī ḏẖi▫ān kī karahi bibẖūṯ. 
 Make contentment your ear-rings, humility your begging bowl, and meditation the ashes you apply to your body. 

 ਖਿੰਥਾ  ਕਾਲੁ  ਕੁਆਰੀ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ਡੰਡਾ  ਪਰਤੀਤਿ  ॥ 
 खिंथा कालु कुआरी काइआ जुगति डंडा परतीति ॥ 
 Kẖinthā kāl ku▫ārī kā▫i▫ā jugaṯ dandā parṯīṯ. 
 Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick. 

 ਆਈ  ਪੰਥੀ  ਸਗਲ  ਜਮਾਤੀ  ਮਨਿ  ਜੀਤੈ  ਜਗੁ  ਜੀਤੁ  ॥ 
 आई पंथी सगल जमाती मनि जीतै जगु जीतु ॥ 
 Ā▫ī panthī sagal jamāṯī man jīṯai jag jīṯ. 
 See the brotherhood of all mankind as the highest order of Yogis; conquer your own mind, and conquer the world. 

 ਆਦੇਸੁ  ਤਿਸੈ  ਆਦੇਸੁ  ॥ 
 आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥ 
 Āḏes ṯisai āḏes. 
 I bow to Him, I humbly bow. 

 ਆਦਿ  ਅਨੀਲੁ  ਅਨਾਦਿ  ਅਨਾਹਤਿ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਵੇਸੁ  ॥੨੮॥ 
 आदि अनीलु अनादि अनाहति जुगु जुगु एको वेसु ॥२८॥ 
 Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||28|| 
 The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||28|| 

 ਭੁਗਤਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਦਇਆ  ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਵਾਜਹਿ  ਨਾਦ  ॥ 
 भुगति गिआनु दइआ भंडारणि घटि घटि वाजहि नाद ॥ 
 Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ. 
 Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart. 

 ਆਪਿ  ਨਾਥੁ  ਨਾਥੀ  ਸਭ  ਜਾ  ਕੀ  ਰਿਧਿ  ਸਿਧਿ  ਅਵਰਾ  ਸਾਦ  ॥ 
 आपि नाथु नाथी सभ जा की रिधि सिधि अवरा साद ॥ 
 Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ. 
 He Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads on a string. 

 ਸੰਜੋਗੁ  ਵਿਜੋਗੁ  ਦੁਇ  ਕਾਰ  ਚਲਾਵਹਿ  ਲੇਖੇ  ਆਵਹਿ  ਭਾਗ  ॥ 
 संजोगु विजोगु दुइ कार चलावहि लेखे आवहि भाग ॥ 
 Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg. 
 Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny. 
 

If you read the entire Shabad it alludes to something else. Really talks about the unimportance of these other concepts of angels, demi-gods etc.

Again reading all of Page 8:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=8

The actual message of the shabad is actually different.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh........
> 
> Angles were human beings like us...after reciting Naam..and reaching certain stage they become angels...same way Devtaas in Hindu...they were human beings like us....but we don't have to stuck there...our ultimate target and destiny is GOD..Waheguru...Allah...Raam (Raam here means lord..not devtaa as in Hindus) here Raam mean "Jo Sab Me Rama Hua Hai"...who himself present/inculcated in everything...trees, air, water, birds, animals, humans, ...etc...everything you see in this world...
> 
> ...


 

AdsKhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. There are NO real angels in Sikhi but there are a lot in Hinduism, and the 3 semitic religions.

When Gurbani talks about angels, it talks about  the inner improvement of a human being which happens when we are capable of breeding goodness within with the help of the tools given to us in the SGGS, our ONLY GURU.

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 8, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Tejwant Singh Ji...

As far I think, may be I am wrong, but Guru Ji has confirmed that there are angles like Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, but these are also under influence of Maya...

ਇਕੁ  ਸੰਸਾਰੀ  ਇਕੁ  ਭੰਡਾਰੀ  ਇਕੁ  ਲਾਏ  ਦੀਬਾਣੁ  ॥
इकु संसारी इकु भंडारी इकु लाए दीबाणु ॥
Ik sansārī ik bẖandārī ik lā▫e ḏībāṇ.
One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.


well I remember one Pankti also: (link: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...ni-kirtan-28-tilak-janju-rakha.html#post47386)

* hY hY hY sB jg BXo jY jY jY sur lok ] 16]*
*Hai hai hai sabh jag bhayo jai jai jai sur lok||16||*
*With the world Lamented, the gods hailed his arrival in heavens.*


I heard in a katha..it meansthat all Angles hailed........

But I also believe...Only Guru...

I believe: " So Dar Rehraas Sahib"..

also..Sawaiye...." Brahm Bishan Mahesh Sachipat..aant Phase Jam Phaas Paraye".. (even Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh (Shiv) and Indra have to get their account balance from Righteous Judge of Dharma)



I don't believe in them..but I respect everybody...we are not like them..we don't want to like them...but they are sitting at Guru's door and sings.....because God is supreme to all these...they are like us...even their account is settled by God of Dharma...

By angles I mean these Demi-Gods...not Waheguru...


I may be wrong...I am a learner....and here to learn..

Chardi Kala.........


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

AdsKhalsa ji

You always apologize -- but I have a certain sense of connection with you on this aspect of the discussion of angels, and other discussions where Hindu concepts are used in Gurbani. We kind of gloss over the reasons why Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj has so many of these references. And a good exercise would be to do a more in-depth review on this topic. The Gurus did not mean these to be taken literally. But we are looking for some good essays on why not. Sat Nam.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 8, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.... Aaad0002 Ji...

Whenever I thinks that I made something wrong...I think its better to apologize. and that's to Sangat.....well it makes a person humble.....even many times we have to say sorry..even tough we are not wrong......

I said I may be wrong...because I am not still sure.. It happens with me that I had been perceived wrong...e.g. I should have written at first reply on "Wrong translation of Japuji Sahab by Radhaswami sect." thread that...'I just want to correct you...and not have any intension to divert the topic"....because of that we have so many replies and confusion...so I apologized... I have a jack of all..master of none in Gurbani...so its better to accept the mistakes and learn from that.....

Chardi Kala............


 ek shayar ne likhya ae...

   Putter Teg (Guru Teg Bahadur Ji) de nu aakhey kul duniya…
  Ke o Teg (Talwaar/Sword) da dhani kamala da Si…
  Yodhe Veer kamban sun ke naam ohda…
  Rutba khaasaan –cho-khaas jalaal da si…
  Ohda roop talwar si gairiyaan layi…
  Te maadeyaan layi roop dhal da si…
  Ohde gatrey sabdi shook di si….
  Ohde bhattey ch roop kaal da si…
  Par main kalam da vi ohnu dhani aakhaan…
  Aisa likhat ch josh bhar gaya ae…
  Ohda jafarnama Aurangzeb pad ke …
  Bina Teg (Talwaar/Sword) de vaar ton mar gaya ae….​


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## Astroboy (Jun 8, 2009)

Gurbani acknowledges the existence of angels but does not ask us to pray to them.
 The first line on Page 72  of SGGS gives an understanding.
Page 83 further explains what is the food and provisions of an angel.
Page 143 explains that even the Angels have to depart, they are not permanent.
Page 258 touches on Angels deluded by doubt; 
Page 271 mentions that angelic beings sing the Praises of God in the company of the Satguru.
Page 297 say Angels seek the Ocean of Peace.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

namjap said:


> Gurbani acknowledges the existence of angels but does not ask us to pray to them.
> The first line on Page 72  of SGGS gives an understanding.
> Page 83 further explains what is the food and provisions of an angel.
> Page 143 explains that even the Angels have to depart, they are not permanent.
> ...



I disagree here.

These terms are used as metaphors here.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> AdsKhalsa ji
> 
> You always apologize -- but I have a certain sense of connection with you on this aspect of the discussion of angels, and other discussions where Hindu concepts are used in Gurbani. We kind of gloss over the reasons why Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj has so many of these references. And a good exercise would be to do a more in-depth review on this topic. The Gurus did not mean these to be taken literally. But we are looking for some good essays on why not. Sat Nam.



What we have to remember is parts of Bani are actually directed at a particular audience. One can imagine the fledgling "Sikh" community who were in essence Hindu's from Vashnav, Shivite and other backgrounds. The Guru's used terminology they were familiar with.

This this theme is continued in Chandi di Vaar (Dasam Granth).

As was explained to me, it does not necessarily mean teh Guru's believed in these concepts but used these concepts to explain to people their own concepts.


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## greenjuice (Jun 8, 2009)

> Let's stick to Bani rather than the writings of someone from a sect.


just wanted to say that i don't like this sentance.. 
Bhai Randhir Singh was not a sectarian, but a distinguished Sikh, and (correct me if i'm wrong) the only person in Sikh history to be honoured by all the Takhts, in their hukamnamas.. and the sentance furhter implies that this famous Gursikh did not stick to Bani, but i'm pretty shure that sticking to Bani was his whole life..

thanks for the post, namjap


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> just wanted to say that i don't like this sentance..
> Bhai Randhir Singh was not a sectarian, but a distinguished Sikh, and (correct me if i'm wrong) the only person in Sikh history to be honoured by all the Takhts, in their hukamnamas.. and the sentance furhter implies that this famous Gursikh did not stick to Bani, but i'm pretty shure that sticking to Bani was his whole life..



I am entitled to my opinion and I don't rate this man as much as some do. I have read his autobiography and it is cringe worthy, and parts of it made me laugh out loud. Yet he wrote this. Not something I would expect from someone who is meant to be an intellectual.


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## greenjuice (Jun 8, 2009)

no offence Randip, but between yours and the opinion of a man honored by all Takhts, the choise is obvious...


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> no offence Randip, but between yours and the opinion of a man honored by all Takhts, the choise is obvious...



Thats your opinion :welcome:. Mine is i don't rate him!!


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

randip singh said:


> What we have to remember is parts of Bani are actually directed at a particular audience. One can imagine the fledgling "Sikh" community who were in essence Hindu's from Vashnav, Shivite and other backgrounds. The Guru's used terminology they were familiar with.
> 
> This this theme is continued in Chandi di Vaar (Dasam Granth).
> 
> As was explained to me, it does not necessarily mean teh Guru's believed in these concepts but used these concepts to explain to people their own concepts.



Randip ji

I agree 100 percent. At some point it would be a good idea to start a thread on this as a general issue in understanding Gurbani.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Hey but Robbie Williams believes in Angels:

YouTube - Robbie Williams-Angels

English Shabad maybe?:ice:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

IF the Gurus were writing today...
i am sure they would be mentioning the Hollywood legends..the Bollywood legends...BUT that wouldnt necessarily mean they ENDORSE them. Just mentioning that Shah Rukh khan singlehandedly smashed 20 goondas on a film set doesnt mean that is TRUTH in real life...BUT one can MENTION such a FEAT..to INSPIRE many...to STAND UP TO INJUSTICE...TYRANNY....and FIGHT ON no matter what the ODDS. THAT si the REAL MESSAGE...we must be discerning enough to SEE what the GURUS want us to SEE.

1. Guru Ji mentioned the Bhagat Prehlaad "legend"..it was one of the most common..favorite among the populace...almost every child knew about it...so GURU Ji wrote that story to REINFORCE the TRUTH that The CREATOR does indeed "SAVE" His Bhagts....BUT to KEEP IN HIS HUKM...Hukm Razaai Challnna is also PARAMOUNT....and they PROVED THIS LESSON..BY SHOWING thta UNLIKE what happeend in the Prehlaad LEGEND...The CREATOR didnt BREAK his own LAWS...to come roaring out of the Tattee tavee on which Guru Arjun ji SAT....or FREEZE the FIRES under the Tatee tavi..or Smash the AARA that was cutting Bhai Mati Dass into TWO Halves....or Render the Sword Blade as soft as butter when it was whisked to cut off the Head of Guru Teg Bahdur Ji...or to make into DUST the Brick walls bricking up Zorawar Singh and fateh Singh alive.... NO SUCH THINGS HAPPENED !!! as that would be BREAKING HIS HUKM. Now the Question is did the CREATOR "SAVE" His Bhagts..Guru Arjun ji, Guru teg Bahadur Ji..Bhai Mati dass Ji.Chottah sahibzaddahs and many many hundreds of thosuands more ?? Remember Guru ji said HE DOES SAVE HIS BHAGATS ( as He supposedly did in prehlaads legend- BUT is Prehlaad still ALIVE TODAY ?? ) GURBANI IS RIGHT..He did save all...(but NOT in the way of the Legend..in the WAY of the GURUS...and the Sikhs who came in their Footsteps...Facing up to TYRANNY BRAVELY..alwasy in HIS HUKM...Living DEAD !! JEEWAN MUKT...a SIKH  on the Hanging Platform...woudl be wasting his time..waiting for the Creator to jump out and cut his rope !! It DOESNT HAPPEN THAT WAY. OUR SIKH history is PROOF UNASSAILABLE...so we can SEE our GURUS sitting on the HOT PLATE..and LEARN..or we can "see" the harnaskh jumping out of the HOT PILLAR to save Prehlaad... I PREFER to SEE my Beloved GURU ARJUN JI sitting calmly declaring..Diosh na kahoon devohn..Tera Bhanna MEETHA laggeh..Naam padarth nanak manggeh..AND HOW CAN I BE LIKE THAT ??.....rather than sit on the edge of my seat so as to not "miss" when the Fires "FREEZE" or a Thunderstorm breaks and Rain pours down on the hot Plate !!!! oohs and aahs...BhaGtaan dee rakhdaa iayahhhhs...MY GURU JI is SUPREME..and he was RAKHIYA BY WAHEGURU....but not in a melodramataic way..but in REALITY...WHICH I TOO CAN DARE TO DREAM OF FOLLOWING..as I am HIS SIKH...well TAUGHT by HIM...


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2009)

*It is possible to voice disagreement without attacking the integrity of another member. The last post was removed. Please follow the forum rule. Debate issues not personalities. *


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## greenjuice (Jun 9, 2009)

> i am sure they would be mentioning the Hollywood legends..the Bollywood legends...


no, they wouldn't...


*Var Bhagauti Ki*​*First and foremost I remember Bhauguti Ji (God) and then set my mind on Guru Nanak. *
*Then I seek the help of Guru Angad, Guru Amar Das and Guru Ram Das. Arjan,                Hargobind and (Guru) Har Rai be remembered.*
*Sri Harkrishan be meditated upon whose mere glimpse removes all sorrows.  (Guru) Tegh Bahadur be remembered as it causes the home to flourish.*
*They all help me at all times.*
*The Lord first created Khanda, the double edged sword and then his manifest world. Having created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, He created the entire play of Kudrat (manifest world). *
*He created the oceans, mountains, earth and sky which stands above, unsupported by any pillars.*
*He created both gods(deities) and demons and then created polemic.*
*It was You who created Durga so as to destroy the demons.*
*Rama also took strength from you to kill Ravan with his arrow.*
*Krishan also got strength from You and thus threw down Kansa by his hair. *

and where does Gurbani say to interpret this as a fairy tale?


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2009)

*In clear concise language Guru Sahib Ji states : 
*

I do not seek the blessings of Ganesh, 	 
I do not worship Krishna or Vishnu. 	 
I do not recognise them.	 
I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord alone. 	 
The Lord of Death, Akal, is my refuge and He saves me is all tribulations. 	 
(Krishan Avtar, 434)


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## greenjuice (Jun 9, 2009)

there's nothing there saying that Krishna or Vishnu don't exist..


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> there's nothing there saying that Krishna or Vishnu don't exist..



I wonder if Robbie Williams has met them?


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> no, they wouldn't...
> <snip>
> 
> and where does Gurbani say to interpret this as a fairy tale?



Try reading all of this and the section where these "Gods" become victims of Kaal or Time. What kind of Gods actually die?


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 9, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

God never dies....Angels were humans....so it means there are no demons.. no devils...no souls....wandering around........so only this kudrat..whatever you see exists... No Vedas also...because Brahma is the writer of Vedas...No Krisha...no Ravan, No Harnakash...No Namdev..No Kabir...because even Kabir Ji said that -its not that Ram (Angel who killed Ravan)...its other Ram (GOD)..... 



> Try reading all of this and the section where these "Gods" become victims of Kaal or Time. What kind of Gods actually die?



who is saying that these are Gods ? but that doesn't mean that they don't exist..... 

How you will justify the powers Hindus gain through worship of these Angels....( I will not say them GOD because there is only one God, and these are angels (devtaas) ).  I am repeating this third time  that don't confuse that I am referring these Angles as God...but as far I know and saw...they exist...but they are not GOd....

Even Gyani Thakur Singh Ji confirmed in Jap Ji Sahib Viakhya that they exist...Suraj Prakash Granth ( in history of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji..) its written that Narad Muni appeared...one Saadu also confirmed that Narad Muni told him that Guru Nanak is a avtaar of Kalyug and will come to meet you....also its written that Guru Nanak Ji turned a Devil into Devtaa (angel).

you can easily say that we don't go with Suraj Prakash Granth...well its own perception...

In Sikhism we don't believe in them, which means, we don't worship them...we believe in Guru and our Guru Matr- Waheguru....

Chardi Kala....


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 9, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I wonder if Robbie Williams has met them?



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Our Guru Ji never made a fun of other religions...rather respected every faith....and supported freedom of following religion..

Chardi Kala..........


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> God never dies....Angels were humans....so it means there are no demons.. no devils...no souls....wandering around........so only this kudrat..whatever you see exists... No Vedas also...because Brahma is the writer of Vedas...No Krisha...no Ravan, No Harnakash...No Namdev..No Kabir...because even Kabir Ji said that -its not that Ram (Angel who killed Ravan)...its other Ram (GOD).....



That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but for me this is like 2+2=5.




AdsKhalsa said:


> who is saying that these are Gods ? but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.....
> 
> How you will justify the powers Hindus gain through worship of these Angels....( I will not say them GOD because there is only one God, and these are angels (devtaas) ).  I am repeating this third time  that don't confuse that I am referring these Angles as God...but as far I know and saw...they exist...but they are not GOd....
> 
> ...



If they exist today they must be immortal, but in Dasam Granth Guru Gobind Singh in Akal Ustat clearly describes them as dieing.

Devtaas are imortal, so why do they die? Please explain?


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> Our Guru Ji never made a fun of other religions...rather respected every faith....and supported freedom of following religion..
> 
> Chardi Kala..........



Who says I am making fun? You obviously have not heard the song Angels.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 9, 2009)

randip singh said:


> That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but for me this is like 2+2=5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

In my earlier replies I metioned that even Devtaas has to settle their accounts ...IMHO I have no where mentioned that they never die.... Its in Gyani Thakur Singh Ji's katha..mentioning how human beings become Devtaas...they are into the same cycle as humans.... I never ever claimed that they never die...or they are immortal.... but they do exist...

Chardi Kala...


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## Randip Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> In my earlier replies I metioned that even Devtaas has to settle their accounts ...IMHO I have no where mentioned that they never die.... Its in Gyani Thakur Singh Ji's katha..mentioning how human beings become Devtaas...they are into the same cycle as humans.... I never ever claimed that they never die...or they are immortal.... but they do exist...
> 
> Chardi Kala...




We will have to agree to disagree as I am not a follower of Gyani Thakur ji.

I really siggest you analyse and read Dasam Granth.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

And why ask...DO "SIKHS" Beleive....( in anything )
How does one categorise what or not SIKHS beleive in or not ??
The REHAT Maryada states..a SIKH beleives in the Creator, the Ten Gurus, SGGS.Period.

imho..it should be..DO I (or YOU) beleive/dont beleive in Angels..manna from heaven..demons charging out of hell..devil with two horns..King Arthur...and his roudn table ?? etc etc etc...and we can have fun...


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## greenjuice (Jun 10, 2009)

> I wonder if Robbie Williams has met them?



your constant turning of a conversation into a mockery is starting to get annoying..



> Try reading all of this and the section where these "Gods" become victims of Kaal or Time. What kind of Gods actually die?



ah, yes, sorry that Gurbani doesn't use term according to your definitions of them. how about you can call them gods, demi-gods, devatas, angels..



> If they exist today they must be immortal, but in Dasam Granth Guru Gobind Singh in Akal Ustat clearly describes them as dieing.
> 
> Devtaas are imortal, so why do they die? Please explain?



why do they must be immortal, where did conclusion came from? you deduct conclusions that do not really have much to do with what the persons you're disscusing are saying, i don't see the point in that. 

where does the Bani say that devatas don't exist? where does the Bani say that we are to interpret the Bani with stories about devatas as fairy tales? nowhere, maybe?

and you insist to much on your opinion, asamptions and interpratations, that sounds a little manmukhi, and more important, why should your opinion mater to anyone else..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

Greenjuice wrote:>>>and you insist to much on your opinion, asamptions and interpratations, that sounds a little manmukhi, and more important, why should your opinion mater to anyone else..<<<<<<

well..everyone has an "opinion"..everyone is entitled to one  (0r two or as many as you want)..and no ones opinions really matter to anyone else....SPN is just a place to EXCHANGE OPINIONS...No one has a monopoly..copyright..sole proprietorship of any thing...each one of us just owns our own keyboard..NO ONE is obliged to read...reply...post...or accept any post..its all entirely voluntary...just use your KEYBOARDS DELETE KEY..or Press ENTER and proceed away from a Thread which annoys ..Thats what I DO and it works for me....no body can take away our KEYBOARD...except in the extreme cases when we use it to abuse others in unkind language...then we end up in purgatory....
No offense intended jios...just tryint o make spn a pleasant place for all...:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 10, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.........

I am a follower of only and only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji....but I respect all religions...I don't want to  differentiate just because of religion, race, or caste....... I have gained a little knowledge through Guru Nanak Ji history broadcasting live form Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana, by Gyani Sarabjeet  Singh ji....and through Katha of Jap Ji Sahib...well you may be right...I am not a Gyani like you all...who holds all knowledge... ..May Guru bless me with knowledge....thats only I want....

Chardi Kala..


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 10, 2009)

> English Shabad maybe?



Kehan to pehlaan Maafi chavanga.but...Shabad in Sikhism means Gurbani....other than Shabad we have Kavita, Dhadi varaan, Saakhi...e.t.c...but when we say Shabad ..it automatically inferred by Sikhs as Gurbani.....Your reply might be read by many scholars of Sikhism visiting SPN... but no body dared to reply..... No wonder why other than Sikhs started making fun of Sikhi............ 

Chardi Kala....


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## Randip Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> your constant turning of a conversation into a mockery is starting to get annoying.. ..


 
You need to lighten. Maybe have an ice-cream. If you are getting annoyed and you wish to convey anger then SPN is not for you.




greenjuice said:


> ah, yes, sorry that Gurbani doesn't use term according to your definitions of them. how about you can call them gods, demi-gods, devatas, angels.. ..




Just read Dasam Granth and make up your own mind. 




greenjuice said:


> why do they must be immortal, where did conclusion came from? you deduct conclusions that do not really have much to do with what the persons you're disscusing are saying, i don't see the point in that.




Read Akal Ustat.



greenjuice said:


> where does the Bani say that devatas don't exist? where does the Bani say that we are to interpret the Bani with stories about devatas as fairy tales? nowhere, maybe?




Read Dasam Granth and form your own conclusion. You are entitled to belief in multiple armed Gods.




			
				greenjuice;103098[/FONT said:
			
		

> and you insist to much on your opinion, asamptions and interpratations, that sounds a little manmukhi, and more important, why should your opinion mater to anyone else..




Now you are getting nasty. Stop that!


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## Randip Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.........
> 
> I am not a Gyani like you all...who holds all knowledge... ..May Guru bless me with knowledge....thats only I want....
> 
> Chardi Kala..


 
Who says I hold any knowledge?


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## Randip Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Kehan to pehlaan Maafi chavanga.but...Shabad in Sikhism means Gurbani....other than Shabad we have Kavita, Dhadi varaan, Saakhi...e.t.c...but when we say Shabad ..it automatically inferred by Sikhs as Gurbani.....Your reply might be read by many scholars of Sikhism visiting SPN... but no body dared to reply..... No wonder why other than Sikhs started making fun of Sikhi............
> 
> Chardi Kala....


 
Stop it! 

I am not making fun of Sikhi. Sikhs don't have a monopoly on the term Shabad, and if you cannot take comments in the spirit they were meant, I suggest you do not reply.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 10, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Stop it!
> 
> I am not making fun of Sikhi. Sikhs don't have a monopoly on the term Shabad, and if you cannot take comments in the spirit they were meant, I suggest you do not reply.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..

sorry to say again... I am ready to take anything on me...ready to face anything...whatever you say...you can make fun of me...I will take it lightly... and in a good and positive spirit...But..I can not resist any fun about Guru and Gurbani..I conveyed whatever I felt...I know you have not meant to make fun of Gurbani...but Guru and Gurbani... the two most respectful for me in my life...more than this life of mine given by Guru..more cleary....what people  usually say "MORE THAN  A GOD"...but Guru is my God..Guru is everything for me..you all sangat is Guru Roop for me...and I respect you all......... 

Chardi Kala...


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## Randip Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..
> 
> sorry to say again... I am ready to take anything on me...ready to face anything...whatever you say...you can make fun of me...I will take it lightly... and in a good and positive spirit...But..I can not resist any fun about Guru and Gurbani..I conveyed whatever I felt...I know you have not meant to make fun of Gurbani...but Guru and Gurbani... the two most respectful for me in my life...more than this life of mine given by Guru..more cleary....what people  usually say "MORE THAN  A GOD"...but Guru is my God..Guru is everything for me..you all sangat is Guru Roop for me...and I respect you all.........
> 
> Chardi Kala...



You are making false accusations against. I have not made fun of Sikhi. I'm asking for the last time to stop this.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 10, 2009)

randip singh said:


> You are making false accusations against. I have not made fun of Sikhi. I'm asking for the last time to stop this.




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...

stopped it...   

Sarbat da bhala...

Chardi Kala............


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## Randip Singh (Jun 10, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...
> 
> stopped it...
> 
> ...



Thanks...I was quite hurt by that!


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 10, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Thanks...I was quite hurt by that!



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji..

I am sorry to hurt you....I just humbly want to convey you whatever I felt.....Sorry again...

raab raakha...

Chardi Kala...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 11, 2009)

Its when we begin to "attach holiness" to OBJECTS..words (Shabad)..Gurdwara....Karrah parshaad..degh..guru ka langgar....chaur shaib..palki shaib..etc etc that we begin on a downward slope....slide !!!
THINGS..OBJECTS..WORDS..per se are NOT HOLY....they cannot be !!!
Take the SGGS..what is HOLY is the DIVINE MESSAGE....i have seen to many completyley DISREGARD the Divine Message..the Rehit...what Gurbani says to DO...BUT they bow and bow lower and lower....in the Gurdwar street..at the gate..at the car park..at the nishan sahib tharra..at each step leading upwards the darbar Sahib...they eat fallen down bits of degh from the floor....BUT....do they raed Gurbani ( NO i dotn knwo Punajbi..no time..am very busy at work...)..do they LISTEN to Gurabni..same reasons...do they understand Gurbani..follow what the Gyani ji explained in the Hukmanma..we are not Gyanis..we dotn know..we are simple sikhs..earn money..do work....all that Gurbani is for the ragis/granthis..bhai ji...why dont you keep kesh..and wear dastaar..why ?? i am a good sikh..inisde..no need to show off outside..!!!...why PICK up fallen degh bits off the floor..DEGH is HOLY...why THROW AWAY YOUR KESH at the barber every day ?? KESH..not holy ?? I already told you..I am Sikh INSIDE...
KESH  is not holy..per se..its what they REPRESENT...???? why throw one and keep the other..??? dont know..??? no answers...BECAUSE the DIVINE MESSAGE of SGGS is not FILTERING THROUGH all this "holy smokescreens"....its DHUNDDH...all over aagain..Dense FOG !!! the FOG that Guru nanak ji dissipated in 1469....500 years ago....has RETURNED with a FRENZY and INSIDE GURDWARAS too..

WE Have to;
1. Begin studying GURMUKHI..to be able to READ GURBANI..and TOUCH our SHABAD
2. Begin FOLLOWING what the Shabad Says...and stop empty ritualised bowing only...."fake darshan"
3. IMPLEMENT that TEACHINGS..and change our LIVES..not "IN" one ear.."OUT" the other...
4. That will make us Good Sikhs..Inside and Outside...:ice::ice::ice:


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## Randip Singh (Jun 11, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Its when we begin to "attach holiness" to OBJECTS..words (Shabad)..Gurdwara....Karrah parshaad..degh..guru ka langgar....chaur shaib..palki shaib..etc etc that we begin on a downward slope....slide !!!
> THINGS..OBJECTS..WORDS..per se are NOT HOLY....they cannot be !!!
> Take the SGGS..what is HOLY is the DIVINE MESSAGE....i have seen to many completyley DISREGARD the Divine Message..the Rehit...what Gurbani says to DO...BUT they bow and bow lower and lower....in the Gurdwar street..at the gate..at the car park..at the nishan sahib tharra..at each step leading upwards the darbar Sahib...they eat fallen down bits of degh from the floor....BUT....do they raed Gurbani ( NO i dotn knwo Punajbi..no time..am very busy at work...)..do they LISTEN to Gurabni..same reasons...do they understand Gurbani..follow what the Gyani ji explained in the Hukmanma..we are not Gyanis..we dotn know..we are simple sikhs..earn money..do work....all that Gurbani is for the ragis/granthis..bhai ji...why dont you keep kesh..and wear dastaar..why ?? i am a good sikh..inisde..no need to show off outside..!!!...why PICK up fallen degh bits off the floor..DEGH is HOLY...why THROW AWAY YOUR KESH at the barber every day ?? KESH..not holy ?? I already told you..I am Sikh INSIDE...
> KESH is not holy..per se..its what they REPRESENT...???? why throw one and keep the other..??? dont know..??? no answers...BECAUSE the DIVINE MESSAGE of SGGS is not FILTERING THROUGH all this "holy smokescreens"....its DHUNDDH...all over aagain..Dense FOG !!! the FOG that Guru nanak ji dissipated in 1469....500 years ago....has RETURNED with a FRENZY and INSIDE GURDWARAS too..
> ...


 
So true. I have noticed people have started circum navigating Sri Harmandir Sahib and also the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? When did that start?


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 17, 2009)

Here's my shot at explaining the psychology of the people Jarnail Singh ji is speaking of:


> i have seen to many completyley DISREGARD the Divine Message..the Rehit...what Gurbani says to DO...BUT they bow and bow lower and lower....in the Gurdwar street..at the gate..at the car park..at the nishan sahib tharra..at each step leading upwards the darbar Sahib...they eat fallen down bits of degh from the floor....BUT....do they raed Gurbani ( NO i dotn knwo Punajbi..no time..am very busy at work...)..do they LISTEN to Gurabni..same reasons...do they understand Gurbani..follow what the Gyani ji explained in the Hukmanma..we are not Gyanis...


There is this idea that is quite common amongst people: superstition - that an action, although unrelated to an event, will cause the event to occur.

"Reading SGGS [for well being - why else would you read it?]" is packaged along with these ideas: eating parshad off the floor and circumnavigating objects and such ["doing these things will also result in your well being"], and one may realize at this point that it is much easier to do the latter. It's much easier to eat parshad off the floor than to read a book (any book).
Due to several variables like time or whatever, one gets more opportunities to perform the latter superstitious behaviour, to eat parshad off the floor, or to do one extra lap around the SGGS. You see the simple actions have more bang for their buck, from their perspective.

I am not saying reading SGGS is superstitious behaviour or that it isn't, I am saying that it is possible to view it as such, and so it gets lumped with everything else.

I hope you are with me so far.

So it seems to me that the solution to the problem does not come by reading SGGS (that would be the first step towards understanding), as SGGS is "for your well being" and so are the other superstitious actions but it's much easier to carry out the other superstistious actions. So the first step never gets taken.
And of course, SGGS doesn't exactly say "Don't eat parshad off the floor." so "why not?".

Let me know what you think Jarnail Singh ji and Randip Singh ji.


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## spnadmin (Dec 17, 2009)

I do like what Gurmit Kaur ji said this morning in a different thread. If Sikhism is changing and groups are being formed all the time, then let's start a group that doesn't follow "weird rituals."  Which is simple yet profound. That is exactly what Guru Nanak was trying to do -- take the weirdness out of spirituality.:welcome:


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2009)

Ya but then you just have one more group. It would be better to teach people of those groups.  Don't you think?


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2009)

I think she was facing up to an constant reality. People pick their lanes of traffic, refuse to yield, and cause traffic jams. When that happens it is good to have your own map.

Forget it!

I think she did not expect to be taken "literally."


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2009)

ya I figured that.
I bet our education has something to do with it. It doesn't teach you to be skeptic enough... I reckon that's what you need.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Nov 28, 2012)

BabbarSher said:


> Thanks for the compliments Vijaydeep ..
> 
> and more thanks still for a very nice and logically flowing post
> 
> ...


 


sat sri akal thanks for the link very helpfull it was..


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Nov 28, 2012)

yes there are angels, but in sikhism we does not pray to them or ask help from them because they cannot give us Naam.. Further more revelations in sikhism is coming directly from the one god,, without the help of anything inbetween.. this is my oppinion. thanks


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## Luckysingh (Nov 28, 2012)

Nothing wrong with angels.- I believe !!
Nice things to talk about and think of but it's not about sikhism.
In the same way I believe in Rocky Balboa and Rambo, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Nov 30, 2012)

sat sri akal to everyone. to my oppinion yes sikhism do believe in existance in angels.. but to worship and ask help from angels it is a no in sikhism.. sikhism worship the only one, the eternal one. only eternal one can show us the path to mukti.. angels cannot show us the path to mukti because they themself are crying day and nites for the lord s grace but they are not getting it.. angels are just following the command of the lord and singing his praises day and nite.. this is my oppinion thanks and sat sri akal


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2012)

The beginnings of the concept of "angels" is 1000 years older than Islam. Angels come into many different religions of the middle east and Asia Minor, including Judaism, at about 600 BCE. So it should not surprise if the subcontinent of India would have contact with the idea of angels, and introduce the idea into all of its many religions, following Persian conquest of the Punjab.  Much later Christianity adopts the idea of angels, from Jewish and Persian influences. About 1000 years after the birth of Islam, and 2000 years of Persian influence, Guruji is written and we read of angels in a few places. I am not convinced that the Gurus were including angels as part of Sikhi, but were using images that were familiar to common folk. These angels by now are part of a tradition that is thousands of years old.

My reasoning: Angels would be part of the spirit world...if you believe in the spirit world. If one believes seriously in them then one has to also accept that there is a spirit world inhabited by spirits, and that these "spirits" wander through more than one level or plane of reality doing the work of 2 executive officers of the supernatural. These CEO's would be either a good God or an evil demon (depending on religion the demon has a different name, e.g., Lucifer), or both at the same time. Do we see anywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji examples of agents of the divine carrying out orders in the khands or other planes of existence or reality,  on behalf of good and evil lordships of creation. That is why the idea of angels in Sikhi is very strange, and I think they are used as metaphors and nothing more in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## aristotle (Dec 1, 2012)

CaramelChocolate said:


> With all respect, when am I actually going to find out if Sikhs believe God can take form or not? Some say he can, some day he doesn't.



That depends on how you define God's taking 'form'...
* God already exists and permeates whole of the creation. The Abrahamic concept of God is as the ruler of the heavens and nether worlds. The Eastern concept of God is as the 'Atmaa'(enlightened spirit). Sikhism, in its essence, breaks free from these definitions and limitations and proposes a limitless God. Even while believing that God cannot be 'fully' described, we believe that God permeates the whole Universe. In simpler terms, God is there in anything and everything. The Universe (or Universes) are themselves the 'form' of God (You would appreciate how this concept is somewhat different from Pantheism) 
ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 1350)
_"The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||" _

* At other places, Gurus are termed as 'manifestations' of God. In other words, even when the Gurus didn't claim themselves to be 'God', they were the 'embodiment' of every virtuous attribute that can be ascribed to God. Hence, they were the bearers of 'perfect godliness'.
ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 1409)
_"So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||"_

Also consider
ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਐ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 1372) 
_"The humble servant of the Lord should be *just like the Lord*. ||149||"_

CONCLUSION: Universe is the 'form' of God, God exists in everything the Universe holds. Needless to say, God does not 'need' human form. God is in everything we can perceive, everything we can experience, everything we can ever know. If you are waiting for the God to take form, your wait has already been answered, God already is in 'form'....


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 20, 2012)

in sikhism only god is the destiny. human birth is a special birth, even angels, devtas and other deities are crying day n nite for a human birth, but they are not getting it. they are just following the lord s command and singing his praises only. human birth is a special birth where you can easily earn mukti thru GRACE of god. the others are very unlucky are kept far away from grace of god, i mean the non humans.. in this 84 lakhs of shapes and forms, man is at the epitome point, after that is mukti.. angels and others cannot show us the path of mukti to us.. so better start learning deeper the meaning of love, by loving god grace is attained.. i mean true unconditional love to god.. truest love.. not artificial maya love wanting something in return. carefull maya the deceptor can also shower us with some artificial materialistic grace. but in this grace the end product is death. so from here we can understand all angels and other entities like deities in the spirit world are all locked and kept in maya s illusion. all lost in the 3 gunas. thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 20, 2012)

I BELIEVE in "angels"....my dog is one...and well named too..shes every bit an ANGEL...


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 20, 2012)

To help me understand, how has everyone defined angels?   

I thought I read (was it in the banis?) there is someone on each shoulder writing down our good and bad actions.  While I don't take it literally, the same thing is said in Islam and I believe it may even be mentioned in Christianity.  They may just be metaphors for karma.  

@CaramelChocolate  ji In a sense, they may both be true, but only Truth can see Truth that clearly, imho.  We tend to insert our own opinions and then insist they're true.  I saw all your  "confused smiley guys" as angels, thinking they ?s were their halos.  

@BabbarSher ji Many religions believe there are multiple realms/universes.  In Islam, for example, Jinn are made from "smokeless fire" (so they say) & they roam the earth.  We are just not aware of them.  I'm not sure if Sikhism teaches this or rejects the idea. Just as a dog hears a dog whistle loud and clear while we hear nothing, I suspect our senses are unable to behold all the realms and beings that exist in them.

@Amarpal ji  I don't think most religions believe angels are equal to (The Totality of) God any more than Sikhs believe angels would be equal it it. But that is why I asked for clarification regarding the definition of "angels".  Most Christians and Muslims, for example, would probably say they are beings like we humans not gods, if that is what you are saying. 

mundahug  peacesignkaur


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## palaingtha (Dec 20, 2012)

Amerikaur said:


> I visited a friend this evening who has her home decorated with lots of Catholic imagery.  I was admiring a set of angel figurines that she had on display in her living room.
> 
> She then asked me if my religion believes in Angels.
> 
> ...



Sikhism do not believe in angels.
There are references of Chitra and Gupta in Raag Sodhar. But Chitra and Gupta are metaphors for man's concious and subconcious minds. The thoughts you raise in your subconcious mind and the plans you make to implement it in concious mind are to be accounted for even where the plan has never been set in motion. The five sensual organs, viz. eyes, nose, ears, tongue and carnal indulgence.
When the body dies these five run away leaving you to answer and account for the deeds done by the five uncontrolled senses.


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## Archived_member15 (Dec 20, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I BELIEVE in "angels"....my dog is one...and well named too..shes every bit an ANGEL...


 
The earliest Catholic monk-mystics (the Desert Fathers) would appear to agree with you brother Gyani ji: 




> "...A dog is better than I am, I am lower than a dog, for a dog has love and he does
> not judge..."
> 
> *- Abba Xanthias (fifth century AD), Catholic monk, desert father & mystic*


 



> "...My dog is in a more advantageous position than I; for, he has love and he does not have to give a defense for his deeds..."
> 
> _*Abba St. Isidore of Pelusium (died before 436), Catholic monk, desert father & mystic*_


 
Animals are unable to judge and this suggests Abba Xanthias points to a moral simplicity. Abba Xanthias gets to the heart of what is wonderful about dogs. They are incapable of passing judgment whereas even he, a life-long ascetic and holy man, still struggles against the passions and temptation to judge! 

So yes, I can accept that dogs are angels (in a non-literal, metaphoric sense)!


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## palaingtha (Dec 20, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I BELIEVE in "angels"....my dog is one...and well named too..shes every bit an ANGEL...




Gianiji,

Arn't you making mockery of a serious discussion on an issue which pertains to our faith, Sikhism! Let's abstain from making sarcastic remarks even when humor is intended.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 20, 2012)

> Sikhism do not believe in angels.



How can it be that Sikhism believes in devil manifestations but not angels, is that not a bit one sided?



> When the body dies these five run away leaving you to answer and account for the deeds done by the five uncontrolled senses.



Not all Sikhs believe in judgement after death, some just believe in death


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 20, 2012)

Going right to the source,  I searched angels at srigranth.org.  It gave 44 results for angels.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gu...Search&Param=english&Tier=2&SearchData=angels


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 20, 2012)

Gayani ji

In Islam, there is a hadith which state an angel will not enter a house where there is a dog.

But like you, I know *my dogs are angels*.

peacesign


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## Brother Onam (Dec 20, 2012)

CaramelChocolate, Blessed,
Sikhi is the faith of Sacred Truth. In the bani the various characteristics of the Most High are enumerated. What we learn is that Sat Naam is the elimination of all duality. It then is no longer a question of regarding God as having form or being formless, but rather being amazed at the transcendent Truth beyond all division. Har is All, and in His amazing nature He can be both formless and have the most beautiful form!  Because Waheguru transcends all human understanding. In Ik Ongkar is the divine Oneness in which human conceptions of dualities are annulled. He_ is_ She and He_ is_ both immanent and far away, Arangae _and_ Shyaam, according to scriptures, He is invisible _and_ the Most Beautiful, Namastang Ajanmae, namastang Subanmae.
In our little human brains in our human world these appear as contradictions which we seek to resolve or rationalize, yet in Waheguru,_ all_ of these are One, beyond human understanding. In Jap Ji even it is stated: 
"Many people are trying profusely to find the limits of His Creation, but have only ended up crying since they have been unsuccessful".
So rather than trying to comprehend the form or formlessness of Waheguru, better to absorb yourself in the wonderfulness of the Naam and just be thankful and joyful.


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## spnadmin (Dec 20, 2012)

namji{censored}aur said:


> Going right to the source,  I searched angels at srigranth.org.  It gave 44 results for angels.
> 
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gu...Search&Param=english&Tier=2&SearchData=angels



This is a fairly common result when we do a blind search of any English word using a gurbani search engine. But it is not a meaningful result. What is needed is the understanding of an entire shabad, so the nature of the word and its meaning in context is clear and consistent with gurmatt understanding. 

We don't want to mislead readers into accepting an understanding that slants more toward a Semitic or Persian result, and away from the meaning of the Gurus. And all opinions are not equal in the sense of meaningfulness, relevance or connection to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

That means 44 shabads need to be interpreted Or as one young scholar may holler to another over the Internet: "What is your vichaar brother or sister." Then the fun begins.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

palaingtha said:


> Gianiji,
> 
> Arn't you making mockery of a serious discussion on an issue which pertains to our faith, Sikhism! Let's abstain from making sarcastic remarks even when humor is intended.




DID YOU READ brother VOUTHONS REPLY to my post ???

Some people consistently see only  a "Half *EMPTY* Glass"..while other see a HALF* FULL* Glass !!

Try and be OPTIMISTIC..see the SUN as the Light warmth.....Vitamin D manufacturer....drier of wet clothes..giver of food to plants via photosynthesis...etc etc.....and NOT as the BURNING SPHERE...the Solar Flare ..the disruptor of electronic communications..destroyer of satellites...

CHEERS Ji...japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

CHITAR....in Gurbani context refers to the Plans..the pictures..the ideas etc we prepare..in the GUPT..secret depths of our MIND..what we would love to do..( But Mostly CANNOT because of the LAW..Morality issues..Society we live in etc etc)...for example...there are times when we feel like wringing the neck of the cop who stopped us speeding and gave us a ticket...the plan is there..the idea is there..BUT we DONT DO IT....because we know the consequences...( but still there are many among us who dont give two hoots and do it anyway...).....and DHARAM RAAJ is our CONSCIENCE...which Gives his judgement right away...GOOD...BAD...and we all KNOW immediately...No need to WAIT for Death..and then appear in court etc etc...for "punishments" which are more suited to PHYSICAL BODIES (burning hell fires, brimstone..boiling cauldrons..cutting tongues etc etc) than SOULS !! PUNISHMENT as well as REWARD is INSTANT....because GURBANI is for the LIVING...


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 21, 2012)

since the destiny in sikhism is not heaven and hell where ego still exist, plus the 3 qualities of gunas.. sikhi should rise higher, surrender the ego and be at Such Khand, at the feet of the lord akal moorat, and serve him. existance of angels and other beings plus heavens and hells are mentioned in our scriptures, but they can t do much for us in our journey for mukti.. they themself are lost in maya, and cannot escape from death. all this beings are just performing their duties, performing the lord s command and singing his praises.. thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

BTW SOMEONE POINTED OUT OT ME THAT..
TECHNICALLY..A GLASS IS ALWAYS FULL...EITHER 100% WATER...OR 50% WATER AND 50% AIR !! ITS NEVER HALF FULL.

japposatnamwaheguru:


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 21, 2012)

Sat Nam



> But it is not a meaningful result. What is needed is the understanding of an entire shabad, so the nature of the word and its meaning in context is clear and consistent with gurmatt understanding.



Yes, I am aware of that.  Actually, I think this is true of the sacred texts/Word of God found in all religion.

IE- People tend to take one ayat from Quran and ignore all the other ayat in Quran relating to it so that it appears that Islam is a religion of violence. In the same way, someone could make Jesus, peace be upon him, look violent by clipping a quote from the Bible without its proper context.  IE-when he says he came not for peace but with a sword (Matthew 10:34)  If one didn't know Jesus and only knew he said this about swords, they might assume Jesus promoted violence also.

Sadly, I knew someone who took literally what Jesus said, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:30)

He amputated his own hand, taking that literally.  I also thought for many years, everything Jesus said (the entire Bible for that matter) was meant to be taken literally and I was horrified if I became "more Christian", I deserved to have my hand amputated also.



> We don't want to mislead readers into accepting an understanding that slants more toward a Semitic or Persian result, and away from the meaning of the Gurus. And all opinions are not equal in the sense of meaningfulness, relevance or connection to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



I understand.  Its also probably worth mentioning that all Words of God are probably tainted by "translation".  Once one translates the Quran, for example, into English from Arabic, it involves choices made by the "translator" to explain concepts that can only be understood as worded in the original language of a sacred text.  Angel may have been the closest word a translator could find.



> That means 44 shabads need to be interpreted Or as one young scholar may holler to another over the Internet: "What is your vichaar brother or sister." Then the fun begins.



Googled vichaar and want to share the link I have on it to sip on throughout the day.  Vichaar - Spiritual Inquiry

Has anyone noticed the unique destinations people arrive at through studying the same spiritual messages?  There is a hadith where Muhammad pbuh says: "There are as many paths to God as there are souls on Earth."

In a sense there is One destination, but it appears we view it like a singular Ray of Light granted to each soul by the Divine.  I find it amazing to contemplate on this.

So in your opinion what is (Semitic take) on angels from a Sikh perspective?  What is your vichaar, bro?!?!  peacesign

Someone wrote me using the peace sign to represent two....see new thread.

peacesign


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## palaingtha (Dec 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> How can it be that Sikhism believes in devil manifestations but not angels, is that not a bit one sided?
> 
> 
> 
> Not all Sikhs believe in judgement after death, some just believe in death



Vee saal baad kutey di pooch nu nal vichun bahar kadiae thanvi tedi di tedi hi rahey gi!!!!!!


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2012)

namji{censored}aur said:


> Sat Nam
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is the only way I have to put you on notice. But we are back to square one. ALL RELIGIONS ARE NOT THE SAME! SIMPLE EQUATIONS SHOULD NOT BE DRAWN SCRIPTURE TO SCRIPTURE. VICHAAR BY AN INITIATE OF THE INTERNATIONAL SUFI ORDER WHO IS EXPLORING SIKHI AS AN ISMAILLI MUSLIM WILL ONLY BACKFIRE.  You may have the best of intentions, sharing and what-not, the wisdom of other faiths. But much of what you have written above smacks of having a cavalier attitude toward the Sikh faith. I am therefore giving you a formal warning. Any further sharing that is disrespectful no matter how respectfully it may seem to be written or offered will be deleted without notice. :noticekudi:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

1. When people first began to study Gurbani and find "answers"...many either wore the "vedic Glasses" and saw everything as Vedic Based...
Slowly more and more saw the error of this way...
2. Then some just took one tuk or one word..and assumed that it was GURMATT...beleiving that EACH TUK is Gurmatt..else WHY is that TUK in the SGGS...
Slowly many began to realize that GURBANI addresses people in THEIR language/Context/Beleif system...but at the END in the RAHAO TUK..is the REAL GURMATT BASED ANSWER...that the BOTTOM LINE is RAHAO TUK...not the REST of the Shabad !!
3. SGGS/GURBANI/GURMATT is 100% about EK....the SGGS BEGINS with EK...the EK that is INFUSED in His CREATION as is SUGAR in MILK....
Slowly many began to realise that EK..is NOT..."sitting on some high throne in heaven etc and like a KING dispensing Orders and has na army of ahilkaars..servnats generals etc follwoing those orders..HE is NOT AWAY/OUT/DISTANT form His CREATION...HE doesnt employ Dharamtraajs and Angels and Satans etc...The SGGS repeats again and again  MILLION TIMES..that there is ONLY EK....HE is Jehangir..HE is GURU ARJUN..HE is Bababr and HE is GURU NANAK..He is SATAN..and HE is NOT SATAN..He is LIGHT and HE IS DARKNESS....He is Guru Teg bahadur Ji and He is the EXECUTIONER cutting off  Guru Teg bahdur jis head...EK....EK....EK...ONLY EK...NONE OTHER....

ALL meanings answers are INSIDE SGGS...there is no need to go read the Vedas..the Koran..the Bible..The Mahabharta..the Ramayna..the WHATEVER..in order to UNDERSTAND the SGGS..its SELF EXPLANATORY..its SELF COMPLETE...ITS EK..the EK manifested in all EK GLORY...EK OANKAAR repeated thousands of times and 31 times in FULL on each RAAG..

See Bani SIDH GHOSHT..its in QUESTION ANSWER STYLE.  we CANNOT take each TUK as the BELIEF SYSTEM....( That would be equal to a student sitting for his exam just looking at the QUESTIONS on the Question Paper and coming out that he has finished his examination.)..we have to GO FIND the ANSWER that GURU JI provides..THAT ANSWER is GURU JIS BELIEF SYSTEM....not what the Siddhs asked. Guru nanak ji saw some Religious persons spreading their own excreta and smelling it..he also saw some pulling out their hairs by the roots and rubbing ashes..he saw some leaving their homes and families to wander around..begging for food...he saw many shifting house to die in Benaras..he saw some giving away everything to get their heads sawn off at Hardwaar in order to secure a place in heaven..he saw Inder with a million "vaginas" over his body...he saw so many things..ALL of which are mentioned in SGGS....BUT ALL these are NOT GURMATT BELIEFS...these are ILLUSTRATIONS..EXAMPLES of what the people did and still do..what they beleive/beleived IN...and we have to discover what GURU JI BELIEVES IN..thats GURMATT and its all in SGGS..but if we really LOOK. Mnay used to say and still say..OH GURBANI is a deep Ocean..the deeper you dive..the more pearls you get..or..Gurbani is too deep..it has many meanings blah blah blah...the TRUTH is that SGGS...GURBANI is ALL EK...it has ONLY EK Meaning...EK BELIEF...EK PEARL....the Pearl of GURMATT. There is no place for multiples..duality...misinterpretation...EKA BANNI..EK GUR..EK BICHAAR...is the Central theme of the entire SGGS composed by over 36 authors over many centuries coming from diverse backgrounds religions places etc BUT ALL WROTE EXCLUSIVELY ON EK..and their personal experiences with ONLY EK... Not a single Composer has written about any DEVI..Avtaar..Devta as the Basis of His Beleif System...ALL AGREE only on EK...WHENEVER any writing of any composer that DEVIATED from EK was presented to GURU NANAK JI/GURU ARJUN JI/GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..it was REJECTED OUTRIGHT. Even many writings of Established Bhagats like Kabir Ji were rejected because they were at variance with his writings on EK.....Perhaps this is why Guru Arjun Ji decided to put the name of the composer on the titles..otherwise the entire SGGS reads as writings of EK COMPOSER...not an iota of disagreement anywhere...

IF one argues..Brahma is mentioned..so its OK to be Brahma based beleif..Inder..Shiva..ganesh..Krishan raam..sita..dharamraaj..satan..etc etc are mentioned...so SIKHS can "base their beleif sytem" on those...also mentioned are Yogis..sidhs..jains..sakats. reincarnations..joons..rebirths..recycling..etc etc..pilgrimages..baths at sarovars..etc etc..fasts..daans..sootaks..bad days..good days..lucky days..unlucky days..shubh  ashubh..etc etc etc..and its OK to base beleif on those..THEN what is GURMATT ?? What NEW GYAAN did GURU NANAK ji bring ?? IS it the SAME OLD WINE in a new Bottle ?? NO definitley NOT...its BRAND NEW and LATEST GYAAN...GURMATT OF EK...RUBBISHING EVERYTHING that came Before..sootaks and janeaus..karam kaands and rituals..EVERYTHING is DISCARDED..and ONLY THE EK is stressed.  GURU JI wrote the BARAH MAH to DIFFERENTIATE the EK GURMATT INTERPRETATION of the 12 months..Guru Ji wrote the SEVEN DAY WEEK SHABADS to DIFFERENTIATE the Brand New GURMATT interpretation of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday Saturday ets etc...GURU ji wrote the SADD to tell us HOW to treta DEATH in the EK GURMATT way...Guru Ji wrote the ANAND..the GHORRIHAN to be SUNG at WEDDINGS to differentiate form the traditional Ghorriahn sung by MORTALS from the Ghorrihan of the EK.. GURU ji worte the ALLAHNNIAHs of the EK to take us away form the Mortal allahnihan of wailing and crying at DEATH.....BUT we just simply close our eyes..and when we read the SADD..we wear the VEDIC Glasses and go looking for the REJECTED Pandit..and his Purans and karam kaands divas pattal kiryas, bhandeh bistreh daan etc etc...when the REAL SADD of the EK GURMATT is pointing us in the RIGHT DIRECTION !!

EK EK EK EK EK EK EK EK EK EK........1429 Pages of SGGS...is that very difficult to see ?? I wonder...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

READ the views of Prof Barsaal on How to Interpret GURBANI of SGGS using only SGGS as the Tool... Article is in PUNJABI at the Bottom of the Linked Page of Sikh Spokesman.

http://www.sikhspokesman.com/


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 21, 2012)

I'm sorry that I have naively offended Sikhism.  I would never do it intentionally.

I didn't say that all religions are one.  I say they all lead to the same destination because it is my belief that the Divine has spoken through thousands of messengers & also that people often take verses/ayats/words from sacred texts without knowing their meaning or context.  I was trying to show I understood what you meant about the 44 results for angels in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with examples from my own experience.  

I hope you will explain how I was offensive because I don't want to offend anyone again like that.

I thought when you said, "let the fun begin" you were saying something light, so I responded with what I hoped you would see as a response to that.

I don't know what vichaar is to say anything about it.  I googled it.  I wanted to learn about it.  I didn't mean to imply I had any relationship with it. I was hoping you would see I was lightheartedly asking you to be my friend on the spiritual path, even though we don't practice the same religion.

I am exploring Sikhism. I have loved the Daily Hukamnama for years.  I try to make it part of my daily spiritual practice.  I also find myself brought closer to God by Sikhism's teachings. It didn't turn out it was the path for me, but I am nourished by many parts of Sikhism.  Universal Sufism turned out to be a better path for me.  Right there, I show that I don't believe all relgions are the same, but there is only One Truth and God gave us many ways to find Truth.

No, I'm not an Ismaili Muslim.  I'm not sure where you got that idea.  My religion is self-surrender to the Beloved.  To some that is complicated because I have beliefs that don't fit comfortably into many religions (ie - my relationship with the Divine Feminine would be rejected by most Muslims).

When you say "we are back at square one", I don't understand what you are referring to.  I wasn't comparing Islam or Christianity to Sikhism. I was sharing my experiences with reading Quran, Bible, Bhagavad Gita, etc., literally.  And to enter a word in a search box on BibleGateway or IslamAwakened can lead to similar misunderstandings.  

Is it because I mentioned Islam?  I wasnt saying SGGS is like Quran.  I was saying that Quran and Bible can also lead to misinterpretation.  I really was agreeing not disagreeing or trying to promote Islam.

I'm sorry if it was inappropriate to share those things in this post.  I like being here.  I've even paid twice to support SPN financially.  What would you recommend I do at this point so I don't continue to offend everyone.

Please help me understand what I did that was cavalier.  I didn't intend to be disrespectful.  It is completely unintentional if I have done so.  I feel awful about it.  

Peace and all good to you and yours....



spnadmin said:


> This is the only way I have to put you on notice. But we are back to square one. ALL RELIGIONS ARE NOT THE SAME! SIMPLE EQUATIONS SHOULD NOT BE DRAWN SCRIPTURE TO SCRIPTURE. VICHAAR BY AN INITIATE OF THE INTERNATIONAL SUFI ORDER WHO IS EXPLORING SIKHI AS AN ISMAILLI MUSLIM WILL ONLY BACKFIRE.  You may have the best of intentions, sharing and what-not, the wisdom of other faiths. But much of what you have written above smacks of having a cavalier attitude toward the Sikh faith. I am therefore giving you a formal warning. Any further sharing that is disrespectful no matter how respectfully it may seem to be written or offered will be deleted without notice. :noticekudi:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 21, 2012)

gyani jarnail singh said:


> read the views of prof barsaal on how to interpret gurbani of sri guru granth sahib ji using only sri guru granth sahib ji as the tool... Article is in punjabi at the bottom of the linked page of sikh spokesman.
> 
> http://www.sikhspokesman.com/



ਗੁਰੂ        ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਰਜ ਸਮੁੱਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਇੱਕ (੧) ਦੇ ਫਲਸਫੇ        ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਸ਼ਿਤ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੋਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਅਰਥ ਵੀ ਇੱਕ(੧) ਦੇ ਫਲਸਫੇ ਤਹਿਤ ਹੀ ਕਰਨੇ ਬਣਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ        ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਵਿਆਖਿਆਕਾਰ ਅਕਸਰ ਅਰਥ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਵਿਚਾਰ-ਧਾਰਾਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਪਰਭਾਵ        ਨਾਲ ਅਤੇ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਕੋਸ਼ ਦੀ ਨਿਰਭਰਤਾ ਨਾਲ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਅਰਥ ਕਰਦੇ ਦਿਖਾਈ        ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਕਾਵਿ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੋਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ ਕਾਵਿ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਤੋਂ        ਅਣਜਾਣਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਜੀ ਸਮਝ ਹੀ ਆਪਦੇ ਅਨੁਕੂਲ ਅਰਥ ਤੈਅ ਕਰ        ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਭਾਵੇਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਲਿਖਣ ਸਮੇ ਇਹ ਸਥਾਨਿਕ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਸਮਝ ਅਨੁਸਾਰੀ ਸੀ ਪਰ ਸਮੇ        ਦੇ ਬਦਲਦਿਆਂ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦਾ ਜਨ ਸਧਾਰਣ ਦੀ ਬੋਲੀ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਫਰਕ ਪੈ ਜਾਣਾ        ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਸੀ।
ਅਕਸਰ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤਾਂ ਅਥਾਹ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਵੀ        ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਜਿਤਨੀ ਡੁੰਘਾਈ ਅਤੇ ਨਜ਼ਰੀਏ ਨਾਲ ਚੁੱਭੀ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਤਨੇ ਹੀ ਅਨਮੋਲ ਵਿਚਾਰਾਂ        ਦੇ ਹੀਰੇ-ਮੋਤੀ ਕੱਢ ਲਿਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਈ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਜਾਂ ਜੀਵਨੀ ਨਹੀਂ        ਸਗੋਂ ਗੁਰੂਆਂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਸੈਕੜੇ ਸਾਲਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਕਰਤੇ ਨਾਲ ਇੱਕ ਕਰਕੇ ਕਮਾਏ ਨਿਯਮ        ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਥਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਫਲਸਫਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਸਦੀਵ ਕਾਲ ਤੱਕ        ਸੱਚ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਹਨ ਜੋ ਕਦੇ ਵੀ ਬਦਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੇ ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਵੀ ਸੱਚ ਅਤੇ        ਇੱਕ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਦਾ ਲਈ ਸੱਚ ਅਤੇ ਇੱਕ ਹੀ ਰਹਿਣੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੇਲੇ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਪੁਰਾਣਾ        ਆਦਿ ਨੂੰ ਪੜਨ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੋਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸੰਪਰਦਾਈ ਸੋਚ ਵਾਲੇ        ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਵੀ ਵੈਦਿਕ ਜਾਂ ਪੁਰਾਣਿਕ ਅਰਥ ਹੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ ਜੋ ਇੱਕ(੧)        ਦੇ ਫਲਸਫੇ ਦੇ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਜਾ ਖੜਦੇ ਸਨ। ਅਜਿਹੀ ਸੋਚ ਦਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੈ ਭੰ(ਸਵੈ ਭੰ), ਅਜੂਨੀ ਅਤੇ        ਕਿਰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੂਰਿਆ/ਇੱਕ ਮਿੱਕ ਹੋਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮੰਡ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਕਸਾਰ ਵਿਚਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਸਗੋਂ        ਧਰਤੀ ਤੋਂ ਉੱਪਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਆਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਬੈਠਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਿਭਾਗ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਇਕੱਲੇ ਇਕੱਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ        ਦੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦਾ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਆਵਾਗਵਣ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਨਿਸ਼ਚਿਤ ਕਰਦਾ, ਇਕ ਬਾਦਸ਼ਾਹ ਵਾਂਗ ਸੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ        ਵਿਚੋਲਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਮਦਦ ਨਾਲ ਪੂਜਾ ਅਰਚਨਾ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਖੁਸ਼ਾਮਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਫੈਸਲੇ ਬਦਲਵਾਏ ਅਤੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿਕ        ਲਾਭ ਲਏ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਸਨ। ਅਜਿਹੀ ਸੋਚ ਅਧੀਨ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਵੀ ਇਸੇ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਦੀ        ਪੂਰਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਸਨ। 
ਇਸ ਦੇ ਉਲਟ ਇੱਕ(੧) ਦਾ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਸਮੁੱਚੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮੰਡ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ        ਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਅਟੱਲ ਨਿਯਮ ਵਜੋਂ, ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਰਹਿਤ, ਇਕਸਾਰ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰਦਾ ਤੱਕਦਾ ਹੈ        ਭਾਵੇਂ ਸਾਡੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਜਾਂ ਲੱਖਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਸਾਲਾਂ ਦੂਰ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਧਰਤੀ ਹੋਵੇ। ਜਿਓਂ        ਜਿਓਂ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਸੰਚਾਰ ਦੇ ਸਾਧਨ ਵਧੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਦਾ        ਪ੍ਰਵਾਹ ਤੇਜ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਕਿਸੇ ਨਿਸ਼ਚਿਤ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਣਾਲੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਆਕੇ        ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਹੋਣ ਲੱਗੇ। ਸਥਾਪਿਤ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ        ਪ੍ਰਣਾਲੀਆਂ ਅਗਲੇਰੀ ਮੰਜਿਲ ਵੱਲ ਇਸ਼ਾਰਾ ਕਰਦੀਆਂ ਜਾਪੀਆਂ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੇਲੇ ਗੁਰਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੇਵਲ        ਸ਼ਾਬਦਿਕ ਅਰਥ ਹੀ ਕੀਤੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਸਨ। ਹੌਲੀ ਹੌਲੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਭਾਵ ਅਰਥ ਵੀ ਵਿਚਾਰਨੇ        ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋਏ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੇਲੇ ਗੁਰਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਈ ਹਰ ਸਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਾ ਫਲਸਫਾ ਸਮਝ ਲਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ        ਸੀ ਜਿਸ ਨਾਲ ਕਈ ਵਾਰ ਅਨਮਤੀ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਾ ਵੀ ਗੁਰਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਸਹੀ ਸਾਬਿਤ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ        ਸੀ। ਹੌਲੀ ਹੌਲੀ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਸਮਝ ਆਉਣ ਲੱਗਾ ਕਿ ਕਈ ਥਾਂਈਂ ਗੁਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸਵਾਲ ਜਵਾਬ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ        ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਕਈ ਜਗਹ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਸਮਾਜ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਧਾਰਨਾਵਾਂ        ਅਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਮੁਹਾਵਰੇ ਵੀ ਇਸ਼ਾਰੇ ਵਜੋਂ ਵਰਤੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਕਈ ਜਗਹ ਅਨਮਤਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਮਾਜ ਵਿੱਚ        ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਹੋ ਚੁੱਕੀਆਂ ਧਾਰਨਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੂ-ਬਹੂ ਲਿਖਕੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਅਖੀਰ ਜਾਂ ਰਹਾਓ ਦੀ ਤੁਕ        ਨਾਲ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਾ ਦੱਸੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਕਈ ਵਾਰ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਰਮਝਾਂ ਸਮਝਣ ਤੋਂ ਅਸਮਰੱਥ        ਜਗਿਆਸੂ ਹਰ ਸਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਰਜ ਦਰਸਾ ਕੇ ਹਰ ਸਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ        ਫਲਸਫਾ ਸਮਝ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਸਨ। ਸੋ ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਬਾਬੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀ ਨਿਆਰੀ ਇਨਕਲਾਬੀ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਾ ਵੈਦਿਕ        ਐਨਕਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਪੜੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ। ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਵਾਂ ਕੁਝ        ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਸਗੋਂ ਪਰਾਚੀਨ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਸਾਰ ਹੈ।
ਹੌਲੀ ਹੌਲੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਆਦਿ ਸੱਚ, ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸੱਚ ਵਾਲਾ ਸੰਕਲਪ        ਜਗਿਆਸੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੋਣ ਲੱਗਾ। ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ ਤੇ ਮੌਲਿਆ ਸਮੁੱਚਾ ਜੀਵ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡੇ        ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡੀ ਕਾਇਨਾਤ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਜ਼ੱਰਾ ਜਾਪਣ ਲੱਗਾ। ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮੰਡ ਦੇ ਅਟੱਲ ਨਿਯਮ        ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਭਾਸਣ ਲੱਗੇ। ਪੁਜਾਰੀਆਂ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਵਾਰਥ ਹਿੱਤ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਇੱਛਾ        ਪੂਰਤੀ ਲਈ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਦੀ ਅਖਾਉਤੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਦਾ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਮੱਕੜ ਜਾਲ ਟੁੱਟਣ ਲੱਗਾ। ਗੁਰੂ        ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਜੋਤ ਅਤੇ ਸਾਂਝੀਵਾਲਤਾ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਸਮਝ ਆਉਣ ਲੱਗਾ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ        ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਿਖਿਆਵਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਨਮਤੀ ਆਵਾਗਵਣ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਨਰਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਡਰ ਜਾਂ ਸਵਰਗਾਂ ਦੇ ਲਾਲਚ        ਨਾਲੋਂ ਜਿਓਂਦੇ ਜੀਅ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਦਾ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੀ ਮਾਰਗ ਜਾਪਣ ਲੱਗੀਆਂ। ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਤੇ ਸੁਰਤ ਦਾ        ਚੇਲਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਣ ਦੀ ਸਮਝ ਦੇਹ ਧਾਰੀ ਵਿਚੋਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਖਤਮ ਕਰਦੀ ਜਾਪੀ। ਕਿਸੇ ਕਰਮਕਾਂਢ ਰਾਹੀਂ        ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਰਿਝਾਕੇ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਦਾ ਭਰਮ ਪਾਲਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ, ਹਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਅੰਦਰ ਉਸੇ ਦੀ ਜੋਤ ਅਨੁਭਵ ਕਰ,        ਸਭ ਉਸੇ ਦਾ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਜਾਣ, ਲੋੜਵੰਦਾ ਦੀ ਹਰ ਸੰਭਵ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਦਦ ਕਰਨੀ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ        ਨਾਲ ਇੱਕਮਿੱਕਤਾ ਦਾ ਲਖਾਇਕ ਜਾਪਣ ਲੱਗੀ। ਕਰਤੇ ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਲੱਭ ਕੇ ਕਿਰਤ        ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਲਈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀ ਰੱਬ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ ਜਾਪਣ ਲੱਗੇ।        ਕਰਤੇ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਤ ਦੀ ਸੱਚੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਹੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਦੀ ਅਸਲ ਭਗਤੀ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਹੋਣ ਲੱਗੀ। 
ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਬੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਿਖਿਆਵਾਂ ਹਰ ਤਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਗਿਆਨ        ਦੇ ਯੁਗਾਂ ਲਈ ਸੱਚ ਤਰਕ ਦੀ ਹਰ ਕਸਵੱਟੀ ਤੇ ਪੂਰੀਆਂ ਉੱਤਰਦੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਦੀ ਸੁਚੱਜੀ        ਵਰਤੋਂ ਲਈ ਰਾਹ ਦਿਸੇਰਾ ਦਿਖਣ ਲੱਗੀਆਂ। ਜਾਣੇ ਅਣਜਾਣੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਬਰਾਬਰ        ਲਿਆਂਦੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਹੋਰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਫਲਸਫੇ, ਬੋਲੀ, ਬਣਤਰ, ਸੱਚ-ਵਿਵੇਕ,        ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ-ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਸਰਬੱਤ ਦੇ ਭਲੇ ਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮੰਡੀ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਾ ਪੱਖੋਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਦੂਰ ਰਹਿ        ਗਏ। ਗੈਰ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਵਰਤਾਰੇ ਅਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਮਿਆਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਲੁਭਾਵਣੀਆਂ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਬਾਬੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀ        ਦਰਸਾਈ ਸੱਚ-ਤਰਕ ਤਹਿਤ ਵਿਗਸ ਰਹੀ ਸੋਚ ਨੇ ਬਾਲ ਜਗਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਪਰੀ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਵਾਂਗ ਕਿਤੇ        ਡੂੰਘੀਆਂ ਦੱਬ ਦਿੱਤੀਆਂ। ਸੋ ਅਜਿਹੇ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਕ ਸੰਘਰਸ਼ ਮਈ ਸਮੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਅੰਧਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ, ਕੁਦਰਤ        ਵਿਰੋਧੀ ਅਤੇ ਕਰਿਸ਼ਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਲੰਮੇ ਸਮੇ ਤੋਂ ਸੰਮੋਹਣ ਕੀਤੀ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਸੋਚ ਦੁਆਰਾ, ਆਪਣੇ ਖਤਮ        ਹੋਣ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਨੂੰ ਦੇਖ ਆਨੇ-ਬਹਾਨੇ ਨਾਸਤਿਕਤਾ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਬਣ ਚੁੱਕੀਆਂ        ਪਰੰਪਰਾਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਆੜ ਬਣਾ,ਬਾਬੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀ ਸੋਚ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਜਾਗਰੁਕ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਮਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ,        ਮਜ਼ਹਬੀ ਅਤੇ ਰਾਜਨੀਤਿਕ ਗੱਠਜੋੜ ਦੀ ਸਥਾਪਤੀ ਹੇਠ ਮੁੜ ਪੈਰ ਜਮਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਤਾਕ ਰੱਖਣਾ ਅਚੰਭਿਤ        ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।


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## spnadmin (Dec 22, 2012)

These above were some deletions that hit me hard because I really did not want to delete any of it. But this is where being objective hurts and is probably a mirage anyway. 

Reasoning: Some of the discussion was going off the topic of whether angels are part of Sikhi. Most of the conversation was a continuation of personal disagreement between 2 forum members, and it is time to let go of it. 

Both of these members post comments that I truly enjoy and nearly always agree with. That is what made the deletions hard for me. Friends at war....... hmmmmm..........

I want to re-state Harry Haller's question a different way. But open participation to everyone. No need to hold palaingtha personally responsible for answering it. 

So the question for all to consider is: If there are no angels in Sikhi, then how can there be "imps" in Sikhism, or any incarnations of evil intention and spirit?


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## palaingtha (Dec 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Ok, let us get back to topic, could you kindly explain to me, in a straightforward fashion why imps exist but not angels?



Imps are Bhoot, prets and Angels are supposed to assist God as per Christian's belief, but, in Sikhism there is only One and only One authority between the creation and the creator. Bhoot , Prets exist.
Can you explain me the reason behind the following happening:-

One morning I was driving to my office in Faridabad. About 2-3 miles from the Delhi border there is a small dilapidated mazar by the road side while going towards F'bad where I saw a fully loaded truck turned turtle on the road towards Delhi. There was blood splattered near the driver's cabin of the said truck. While returning in the evening the same day I found the truck was removed,
The next day there was another truck with almost the same fate blood and all and at the same spot. The said truck was removed to clear the road by the evening.
Yet on the third day there was another truck but a few meters before the accident sites of previous accidents. But there was no blood.
Can you explain why this happened for three consecutive days?
One can understand the first as an accident, but what about the two others incidents?
It is a true incident as much as the true story I related about the seven heaps of rice with fish on each and the subsequent death of my companion.
As a true Sikh I do not lie nor exaggerate matters. I do not care you believe it or not.
I will be interested to know what caused the two trucks meeting with accidents at the same place or near about where the first truck turned turtle..


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## spnadmin (Dec 22, 2012)

Is it possible that bhoots, pret are human beings who come fully loaded with evil intentions and wicked deeds --- prisoners of the 5 evils, they spend lifetimes lying in wait for moments when they can harm and injure their  fellow creatures? So in the case of the trucks, they were all stopped and even stopped violently, by bandits in the early morning hours. No one was looking. Drivers who put up a fight were gunned down, hence the blood. Otherwise, drivers were clubbed, kidnapped, buried, no blood. Money and goods were stollen. And the bandits took off, only to set a trap for the next day. 

The bhoots are not supernatural, but are filled with super-natural evil and wickedness. In the same way, angels are not supernatural, but are filled with super-natural goodness, more than an ordinary person can muster up. They are called "angels" but they are really humans (or dogs) who act from love of the creator.


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## palaingtha (Dec 22, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Is it possible that bhoots, pret are human beings who come fully loaded with evil intentions and wicked deeds --- prisoners of the 5 evils they spend lifetimes lying in wait for moments when they can harm and injure the fellow creatures? So in the case of the trucks, they were all stopped and even stopped violently by bandits in the early morning hours. No one was looking. Drivers who put up a fight were gunned down, hence the blood. Otherwise, drivers were clubbed, kidnapped, buried, no blood. Money and goods were stollen. And the bandits took off only to set a trap for the next day.
> 
> The bhoots are not supernatural, but are filled with super-natural evil and wickedness. In the same way, angels are not supernatural, but are filled with super-natural goodness, more than an ordinary person can muster up. They are called "angels" but they are really human (or dogs) who act from love of the creator.



What about the trucks turning turtle, at the same or almost same spot and the loaded goods were splattered near the relative trucks.
Certainly you have no explanations for it. Like the following mystry in my life. I will be brief.
I went to a town about 70 miles from my home. There I dreamnt I died and my body was burried and a cemented monument built. I was lying on some green grass in a football ground like field and thought the I am a Sikh and they should have cremated me. Having objections to burried I got up and moved towards the town. My dream ended there.
On return to my home next day I forgot about the dream. After 2 days instead of Sundays the Gurdwara Jormela happens on every sabbath day. On that day I was standing like others listening to Ardas. The Bhaiji read the ardas  as usual  and went on saying "vichhari atama... Kuldip Singh... apne charan vich nivas baksho..."
When I returned home I asked my mother who is this Kuldip Singh whose name was said in Ardas.
I learnt to my astonishment that the said boy named Kuldip Singh was brought near our house and the Rickshaw he was riding had to stop near the window of our house at ground floor where my bed is placed as the lane further was muddy due to rain water. He had some PAKAD and was being taken to an Ojha who was living in the vicinity of my house. The Ojha came where the boy on the rickshaw was and declared that it was a matter beyond his control. Said he could not be saved as it was too late. The boy died while he was still near my house. 
Was it a mistaken identity by the Yamdoots or WHAT?
This is true happening. That boys brothers are at present living in Delhi and anybody who wants to verify can do so.
The trucks happening is super natural as also this incident. If not what could be this?


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## spnadmin (Dec 22, 2012)

I think the problem with bhoots, jamdhoot, prets is the same problem with angels. It is all speculation. Maybe it is true, maybe not! We watch TV programs, read news articles buried near the back pages, search the Internet to indulge our need for stories of the unexplained. The stories are mostly personal experiences, each one odd and strange. Then the conclusion is -- we will never know for sure, but how about giving angels some credit anyway, just in case? Or let's open up to the possibility that jamdhoots are at it again. 

We use 10 mystery stories to explore the first mystery we started with, and end up with a brand new mystery on our hands when we are finished. It seems to me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji sees no point to this, whether we are talking about angels or about bhoots, jamdhoots, prets, etc.

And the more tangled our  minds become in stories of the unexplained, the more we drift over to babas who are 100 percent willing to make everything crystal clear for a sum of money, and some extra favors thrown into the bargain.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 22, 2012)

> and it is time to let go of it.


 
ok, ok, no more mischief, however, I leave you with a quote from bhoots everywhere

"and I would have got away with it too, had it not been for you damn kids"


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## Luckysingh (Dec 22, 2012)

If there were really no angels, then Los Angeles wouldn't exist !!lol


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 22, 2012)

WHY do we IGNORE the VAST OCEAN of Good advise in the 1429 Pages of SGGSxamples form the lives of the 36 Gurus and Bhagats over  long period of Centuries on how to LIVE as GOOD AN BEINGS..GURMUKHS...and nit pick on a "FEW" references to suposedly evil bhoots prets angels and dharamraaj etc...

The World is ADDICTED to bhoots and angels and the Super-Natural..while the SGGS is mostly about the NATURAL....see how everyone was hyping about the 21-12-12 End of the World..the Apocalypse..etc etc..and SGGS has only this to say.."ONLY HE KNOWS"...ONLY HE CREATED..ONLY HE DESTROYS..ONLY HIS WILL PREVAILS...But everyone....continued to speculate...and wonder and fear..some ridiculing..others shaking in fear and stocking up on food and toilet paper of all things !!  NOW that this was proven False alarm..the doomsdayers are on to new grounds...looking for the next doomsday to predict...LOL...ONLY HE KNOWS is the FINAL DECISION of our GURU..LIVE this HUMAN LIFE as a GURMUKH.PERIOD.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 22, 2012)

A Gurmukh does not fear doomsday, death or the end of time.
A gurmukh does not fear at all...Period.!!
Why waste time and life living in fear ?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 22, 2012)

And I wonder which BHOOT toppled this TRUCK ?? is he white..black..sikh or muslim bhoot ?? I have checked..there is NO NAZAR nearby..no Graveyard..No cremation grounds...its just an ordinary highway...


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## palaingtha (Dec 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> ok, ok, no more mischief, however, I leave you with a quote from bhoots everywhere
> 
> "and I would have got away with it too, had it not been for you damn kids"




???????????????????


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## palaingtha (Dec 23, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> And I wonder which BHOOT toppled this TRUCK ?? is he white..black..sikh or muslim bhoot ?? I have checked..there is NO NAZAR nearby..no Graveyard..No cremation grounds...its just an ordinary highway...



Did such things happen for three consecutive days?
Giani ji what about the 1000 currency note kept in your joora was found in a durian cut by a magician?
There is no virtue in making mockery of happenings experienced by others. Some people have a habit of disbelieving what others say. 
For such people I have a question. Did you believe when your mother said "beta this is your father." Did he raised any doubts? If mother is a liar then every body in this world could be a liar, but not necessarily.
Those with lesser life experiences mock at what others experienced in real 
What do you say about my dream.
Was the Joora/currency story a lie? I believed it as I had some such experiences.
I want to ask Harry Haller did he believe in Joora/currency note story of your's? I asked for his comments but he refrained from answering. Is he a hypocrite? If not he owes me a reply regarding his comments on Joora/currency story.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 23, 2012)

palaingtha said:


> Did such things happen for three consecutive days?
> Giani ji what about the 1000 currency note kept in your joora was found in a durian cut by a magician?
> There is no virtue in making mockery of happenings experienced by others. Some people have a habit of disbelieving what others say.
> For such people I have a question. Did you believe when your mother said "beta this is your father." Did he raised any doubts? If mother is a liar then every body in this world could be a liar, but not necessarily.
> ...



You saw what you think you saw, since time started there have been magicians in the markets who have mastered the art of illusion. The reason why they are still in the markets, is because that is all they are, illusionists.

That is why in every single Scooby Doo episode, the phantom/ghost/witch/demon is always unmasked as a fraud, because they simply do not exist.



P464
ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਿਰਭਉ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ  ਹੋਰਿ  ਕੇਤੇ  ਰਾਮ  ਰਵਾਲ  ॥
नानक निरभउ निरंकारु होरि केते राम रवाल ॥
Nānak nirbẖa▫o nirankār hor keṯe rām ravāl.
O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

ਕੇਤੀਆ  ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਕਹਾਣੀਆ  ਕੇਤੇ  ਬੇਦ  ਬੀਚਾਰ  ॥
केतीआ कंन्ह कहाणीआ केते बेद बीचार ॥
Keṯī▫ā kanĥ kahāṇī▫ā keṯe beḏ bīcẖār.
There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

ਕੇਤੇ  ਨਚਹਿ  ਮੰਗਤੇ  ਗਿੜਿ  ਮੁੜਿ  ਪੂਰਹਿ  ਤਾਲ  ॥
केते नचहि मंगते गिड़ि मुड़ि पूरहि ताल ॥
Keṯe nacẖėh mangṯe giṛ muṛ pūrėh ṯāl.
So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

ਬਾਜਾਰੀ  ਬਾਜਾਰ  ਮਹਿ  ਆਇ  ਕਢਹਿ  ਬਾਜਾਰ  ॥
बाजारी बाजार महि आइ कढहि बाजार ॥
Bājārī bājār mėh ā▫e kadẖėh bājār.
The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion.

ਗਾਵਹਿ  ਰਾਜੇ  ਰਾਣੀਆ  ਬੋਲਹਿ  ਆਲ  ਪਤਾਲ  ॥
गावहि राजे राणीआ बोलहि आल पताल ॥
Gāvahi rāje rāṇī▫ā bolėh āl paṯāl.
They sing as kings and queens, and speak of this and that.

ਲਖ  ਟਕਿਆ  ਕੇ  ਮੁੰਦੜੇ  ਲਖ  ਟਕਿਆ  ਕੇ  ਹਾਰ  ॥
लख टकिआ के मुंदड़े लख टकिआ के हार ॥
Lakẖ taki▫ā ke munḏ▫ṛe lakẖ taki▫ā ke hār.
They wear earrings, and necklaces worth thousands of dollars.

ਜਿਤੁ  ਤਨਿ  ਪਾਈਅਹਿ  ਨਾਨਕਾ  ਸੇ  ਤਨ  ਹੋਵਹਿ  ਛਾਰ  ॥
जितु तनि पाईअहि नानका से तन होवहि छार ॥
Jiṯ ṯan pā▫ī▫ah nānkā se ṯan hovėh cẖẖār.
Those bodies on which they are worn, O Nanak, those bodies turn to ashes.

ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਨ  ਗਲੀਈ  ਢੂਢੀਐ  ਕਥਨਾ  ਕਰੜਾ  ਸਾਰੁ  ॥
गिआनु न गलीई ढूढीऐ कथना करड़ा सारु ॥
Gi▫ān na galī▫ī dẖūdẖī▫ai kathnā karṛā sār.
Wisdom cannot be found through mere words. To explain it is as hard as iron.

ਕਰਮਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਤਾ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਹੋਰ  ਹਿਕਮਤਿ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਖੁਆਰੁ  ॥੨॥
करमि मिलै ता पाईऐ होर हिकमति हुकमु खुआरु ॥२॥
Karam milai ṯā pā▫ī▫ai hor hikmaṯ hukam kẖu▫ār. ||2||
When the Lord bestows His Grace, then alone it is received; other tricks and orders are useless. ||2||


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## palaingtha (Dec 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> You saw what you think you saw, since time started there have been magicians in the markets who have mastered the art of illusion. The reason why they are still in the markets, is because that is all they are, illusionists.
> 
> That is why in every single Scooby Doo episode, the phantom/ghost/witch/demon is always unmasked as a fraud, because they simply do not exist.
> 
> ...



Deleted are comments that seem like taunting to me. Time to make a fresh start so that the personal argument does not dominate the discussion of a topic. Thanks.


Regarding the posts you made today it is irrelevant to ghosts etc. Guru Granth Sahib acknowledges bhoot prets and I can give you the quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I have already cited you a few shloaks before also.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 23, 2012)

I think you MISSED my reply ji... I already said that ..Back then I was an impressionable young teen...BUT NOW..with my vast Gurbani related Personal experience and knowledge..I have not an iota of doubt anymore that such things are mere ILLUSION..DHUAANH da Pahaarr...Mountain of Smoke.   So harry ji need not answer as I have already disavowed that "experience" as that of an inexperienced teen. Now I am 65 and I KNOW.

I Have searched for another such magician...for past decade or so..no LUCK...and I never expected to find him as he doesnt EXIST as far as I am presently concerned.

In this context I have also read somewhere Maskin ji saying that he could TURN BACK the CLOCKS of everyone present whenever he was LATE for a Programme....so he was always on TIME..even though actually late by an hour or so... THIS i beleive is MASS HYNOPOTISM...that must have been performed on me as a teenager back then...

I am extremely SORRY i cannot agree with you on this BHOOT PRET thingy and my position is exactly that taken by harry haller Ji.

Coincidences are rarely that...ask a Road Engineer..he will tell you that at certain places on Highways etc..the slope..structure etc can cause such trucks to overturn if the drivers drive in a certain way...thats why certain sections of Highways are MARKED.."ACCIDENT PRONE"  drive slowly and with caution...


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## spnadmin (Dec 23, 2012)

To everyone: My opinion is that if anyone replies to the question about the mother who says "beta this is your father" or  the "Joora currency story" in a joking way  the comment will be deleted. I understand that it is hard to take comments that contradict our beliefs about jamdoots, prets, bhoots in stride, whether these be pro or con. Try not to see the discussion as a series of personal attacks, and accept the fact that a disagreement is not always a personal attack. Try to avoid jokes, because we can see that some of the participants take this to heart.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 23, 2012)

If we simply google.."Coincidences".....we can compose a Granth twice the size of SGGS in a single hour..  do we really want to waste precious time on this ???  NOT ME.

http://paranormal.about.com/od/humanenigmas/a/Amazing-Coincidences.htm


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 24, 2012)

How would we know if there were such things as bhoot and pret amongst us?

They are said to be immaterial hence no physical evidence can be provided. But the same argument can be made about the God and soul. In the latter case, personal experience will suffice IMO. To know God and soul one has to see them oneself.

Perhaps the same is true of bhoot and pret. Only through personal experience can one know them. You have to see for yourself because no one else can present any evidence for it.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 24, 2012)

AS long as we sikhs ( and non-sikhs) continue to treat EACH WORD and EACH TUK...as "GURMATT"...we will continue to be in ERROR...

Take for example..the Japji sahib pauree..Patalan patal lakh..akash akas...and most SIKHS will claim that THIS is WHAT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB SAYS....BUT ITS NOT what GURU JI says but what the VEDAS say...which is made clear in the next Tuk...  Orrak orrak bhaal thakkeh VED KEHN EK BAAT...

Then the next two linEs tell us what the KITABS..books of the SEMITIC RELIGIONS say..Patalan patal...etc etc...SAHES ATHARANN KEHN kATEBAHN...

BUT WHAT GURU NANAK JI and Hence GURMATT SAYS is in the FINAL TUK...

*LEKHAA HOYEH TAAN LIKHYEAH..lekha hoi vinaass..
NANAK WADDA AKHYEAH APPEH JANNEH AAP !!!*

and THIS IS WHERE THE bottom line IS...WE CANNOT TAKE THE FIRST FEW LINES AS GURMATT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THERE IN PLAIN SIGHT IN BLACK AND WHITE !!..BECASUE THEY DONT TELL THE GURMATT POSITION BUT WHAT THE OTHERS CLAIM.....

IN ordinary Legal issues...insurance agreements etc etc..when People get into trouble...they will be ADVISED...DID YOU READ THE FINE PRINT...right at the BOTTOM ?? OF course they DID NOT..or they wont be facing the problem...BUT by then its always TOO LATE..because the Fine Print is actually the MOST IMPORTANT LINES to read....

BUT our GURU JI didnt write the Gurmatt in "fine print..too small for us to read..and be misled...by OMISSION..." He wrote it with RAHAO...PONDER...WAIT...and READ AGAIN..types of WARNINGS...but we like fools still fail to consider those warnings and get lost in One liner MISINTERPRETATIONS...

Akasaan akash...Pataaln pataal...and Now Science has revealed that there is no such thing as SKY..nor is there Nether worlds..below...and WHO IS WRONG ?? NOT GURU NANAK JI..because HE has NOT claimed there are skies or pataals...GURMATT STANDS the TEST OF TIME and SCIENCE as it should because its the Latest Gyaan......NO ERRORS...no mistakes...

Same goes for Bhoots prets.reincarnations joons rebirths etc etc...etc etc...READ the ENTIRE SHABAD and see what GURMATT POSITION IS....you will be surprised...How ever if you read Partial..and then its your own fault for being misled...

For your reading pleasure  attached this months sikh bulletin..


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 24, 2012)

That's why it makes more sense to read the whole Shabad and analyze it completely rather than just refer to one pankti!


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2012)

*Your message will have to be repeated, shared and taught time and again. Even one of the most prestigious gurbani search engines actually has a format that encourages one-tuk discovery*. 

:whatzpointkudi: 

Following a major technical overhaul of the site, now we see this:



> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
> Gaavan Thudhhano Chith Gupath Likh Jaanan Likh Likh Dhharam Beechaarae ||
> 
> गावनि तुधनो चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणनि लिखि लिखि धरमु बीचारे ॥
> ...



To see the actual dynamic sharing buttons go to http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/8/line/392

Every tuk can now be "shared" on a solo basis. Which of course makes it seem as if an important group of researchers give their blessing to the discussion of single tuks.* And it definitely makes it super easy to send a single tuk across the Internet. *This situation has been true for a while, but now I think is a good time to voice my concern.

:whatzpointkudi:


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## palaingtha (Dec 24, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I think you MISSED my reply ji... I already said that ..Back then I was an impressionable young teen...BUT NOW..with my vast Gurbani related Personal experience and knowledge..I have not an iota of doubt anymore that such things are mere ILLUSION..DHUAANH da Pahaarr...Mountain of Smoke.   So harry ji need not answer as I have already disavowed that "experience" as that of an inexperienced teen. Now I am 65 and I KNOW.
> 
> I Have searched for another such magician...for past decade or so..no LUCK...and I never expected to find him as he doesnt EXIST as far as I am presently concerned.
> 
> ...





I don't want to carry on extended arguments on the issue any further. Harry Haller is continuously bringing the closed issue of rice/fish etc.again and again. For a gentleman once he says he does not agree with me is sufficient but to bring the matter on every issue puts one to doubt the person concerned may be mentally deranged.
When the matter is closed I never bring it for further discussion or taunt the other person like Harry Haller. But when he taunts again and again I have to reply.
The matter of rice/fish, my dream and toppled trucks is closed. You be with your belief and I with mine. I cannot persuade you to accept what I experienced/believe nor you or anybody else can force me to accept your/their views.
I have no grudges against anybody and I expect the same from all concerned.


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## palaingtha (Dec 24, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> To everyone: My opinion is that if anyone replies to the question about the mother who says "beta this is your father" or  the "Joora currency story" in a joking way  the comment will be deleted. I understand that it is hard to take comments that contradict our beliefs about jamdoots, prets, bhoots in stride, whether these be pro or con. Try not to see the discussion as a series of personal attacks, and accept the fact that a disagreement is not always a personal attack. Try to avoid jokes, because we can see that some of the participants take this to heart.




I accept whenever anybody disagrees with me for my posts. But it is another matter when somebody taunts my views and not just once but every time he gets an opportunity to do so. Mr. Harry Haller is at liberty to disagree with my views and say so just once but I cannot accept lying down his use of taunting language directed towards me with a view to irritate me.

From spnadmin: Respected palaingtha ji 

Try now to put this behind you. I certainly respect your feelings and understand what it is like to feel taunted. Sometimes people swim easily in an atmosphere of joking and poking; but others do not take it so easily. All of us have learned a lesson from your experience and will try to do better.


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2012)

I too need to go back to an earlier point about *posting single tuks. *  At Search Gurbani you can see examples of actual dynamic sharing buttons  that allow one to share a single tuk.

http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_gr...ang/8/line/392
My concern is that it makes it seem as if an important group of researchers give their blessing to the discussion of single tuks. 

There is something else that bothers me: Broadcasting single tuks discourages people from thinking in general. And it discourages people from thinking about something that is more complex than a "bite" of the Guru. News producers on radio, tv and even the Internet look for ways to reduce an in-depth story to a "news bite." Now sharing a single tuk, we have something like a "gurbani bite." The effect is the same. Don't think! Just take in a bite of information and leave it at that.

:whatzpointkudi:
It is like going to a party where trays of snacks are served, but you never get a good meal.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 24, 2012)

> It is like going to a party where trays of snacks are served, but you never get a good meal.



Or worse, like going to a party for a sit down dinner, and being served each ingredient, individually, uncooked and unprepared.


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Or worse, like going to a party for a sit down dinner, and being served each ingredient, individually, uncooked and unprepared.



Aye! And hard to endure once you have dined on the alternative.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> How would we know if there were such things as bhoot and pret amongst us?
> 
> They are said to be immaterial hence no physical evidence can be provided. But the same argument can be made about the God and soul. In the latter case, personal experience will suffice IMO. To know God and soul one has to see them oneself.
> 
> Perhaps the same is true of bhoot and pret. Only through personal experience can one know them. You have to see for yourself because no one else can present any evidence for it.


 
I totally agree!!
There is a great deal of people that deal with the 'other side' as we say.
Many around us are involved in seances, the unknown and unexplained. So, I have no right to call these people nuts or bonkers!! If they believe and they know, then I respect that, good for them!
I don't think anywhere in sikhism teachings does it ever deny bhoots and ghoulies. But it does reassure us that a gurmukh is and can't be harmed by these things on the other side.

I really couldn't care less if one believes them or not, as everyone is allowed to have their own personal stance on personal experience.
Has anyone on here ever participated on a ouija board or in a seance of some sort ??
It would be interesting to know the outcomes. 

Maybe as a sikh they witnessed something but then again were untouched or affected ?


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 24, 2012)

> AS long as we sikhs ( and non-sikhs) continue to treat EACH WORD and  EACH TUK...as "GURMATT"...we will continue to be in ERROR...


Accusing your opposition as illiterate, as someone who cannot read an entire shabad is an oversimplification of the complexity of the issue, and sounds quite insulting to be frank. 

It is not that one is reading a single tuk or multiple, it is that you have a different framework of beliefs through which you read the scripture that reveals things to be different than those with a different framework. The issue is not of Gurmat but of underlying beliefs of our cultures. 

It's not even about science because neither side has employed the scientific method. One simply rejects or accepts bhoot, pret etc, on faith. One also has to understand that modern science itself is built on a particular framework of beliefs about nature. And that these framework of beliefs did not guide ancient science.

It's a clash of cultures and their sciences, and underlying this, the framework of beliefs that guide them, not about reading single or multiple tuks.

We live in a scientific rational culture in which, to great extent, the belief in  spirits is not present. The belief in modern science and rationalist thinking with a strong sense of 'I', is detrimental to the belief in spirits. Now, one might say that there are no such things in reality and that science simply guides to this reality.

But what if our beliefs only lead us to a reality consistent with those beliefs. What if because we don't believe in them we don't see them. It could be argued that if we operate from a rationalist, strong sense of 'I' framework we will not see the spirits. Thus we do not see them even if they  are there. This is something we must reflect on. Not whether it is true but that it could be true, and it's implications if it is true.

Now we belong to the scientific, rational, strong 'I' culture and don't see spirits. While many who do not share our beliefs actually do see them. If you have ever conversed with them they are just as sure of their eyesight as we are. If we want them to be open to our way of thinking (ie. spirits don't exist), we should be open to their way of thinking (ie spirits exist).


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 24, 2012)

*Its all about CONTEXT....CONTEXT...and CONTEXT.*

*SINGLE words..Single TUKS....DO NOT Constitute GURMATT* ...by which I mean what GURU JI is trying to put across. *BY Taking a Single Tuk one is trying to PUT WORDS into the GURUS MOUTH and claim that it is GURMATT.*

This is totally out wrong and unfair to the Gurus Message and what Guru is saying GURMATT..its MANMATT pure and simple.  

METHODOLOGY of GURBANI SHABADS in SGGS...including those written by the BHAGATS is such that the ENTIRE SHABAD IS COMPULSORY in order to get at the Kernel of GURMATT.  To keep on emphasising that the Outer skin of the Coconut is the Coconut Kernel is absurd....the Shabads OUTER ( First few lines Tuks are the Cover...the skin..useful..but NOT Gurmatt...not the Kernel...the Kernel is UNDER all those lines..and is IN the RAHAO TUK or Nanak Tuk or Kabir Tuk...and its usually always the Lines towards the END..BOTTOM LINES.

Beleiving or not beleiving is  a personal matter..BUT Claiming that the GURU SAW this and that..and he wrote it in SGGS..iL *FALSE* result because there is no such thing.
*All those who are actively PROMOTING SINGLE TUKS are putting the Gurus words out of CONTEXT and twisting GURMATT which depends on the Entire shabad be read in TOTAL.* REMOVING certain words / Lines/ Tuks/ paras OUT of someones writings and out of CONTEXT is universally regarded as   FALSIFYING.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 24, 2012)

GREAT!!!
That sounds more like it. 
Because all the tuks that are used to deny meditation, coming and going..etc.. are simply falsified as the true meaning is taken OUT of context !!

The WHOLE panth is divided exactly because of what you have quoted Gyaniji.
We have huge divisions of whom accept and others that deny.
Then we have the huge division that even denies that page 1430 is not akaal purakhs message or gurbani- It is just an index of mentioned raags!!!

This is the ROOT of all problems in the divided sikh panth!


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2012)

Reply to 2 forum members as follows: 

1.  





Luckysingh said:


> I totally agree!!
> I really couldn't care less if one believes them or not, as everyone is allowed to have their own personal stance on personal experience.
> Has anyone on here ever participated on a ouija board or in a seance of some sort ??
> Maybe as a sikh they witnessed something but then again were untouched or affected ?



Luckysingh ji,

That is fine with me too, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with Shabad Guru or whether Sikhi supports belief in angels. Of course individuals believe all sorts of things. But do you really believe that one opinion is as good as another?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2. Baghat Singh Sadhu ji 

Gyani Jarnail Singh said and you quoted 





> AS long as we sikhs ( and non-sikhs) continue to treat EACH WORD and EACH TUK...as "GURMATT"...we will continue to be in ERROR...



What in that statement do you not understand? This thread is in the Sikh Sikhi Sikhism subforum of SPN. It is not in a comparative metaphysics  of the world forum. Thus, it does make a difference, it is wrong,  to use a single word or a single tuk to support a belief that is discouraged in Shabad Guru. 

When did Gyani ji use the word "illiterate?" His point was that gurbani can not be made to mean whatever you want it to mean. If you read a few posts back, he wrote that tuks do not acquire meanings from external sources but from the totality of the shabad guru itself. You are free to disagree; but all opinions are not equally well-informed.

So one can choose, and one should choose, either to ground understanding in a complete shabad, or to ground understanding in cultural preferences and personal intuitions. One approach is gurmatt (guru's wisdom) and the other is manmatt (concoctions of ordinary mind and thought).

To belabor cultural explanations for the super-normal and supernatural that disagree with  the scientific-rational framework of the west is a red-herring in the context of this discussion. I find it insulting anyone would assume that most of us do not already understand that and have moved on.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 24, 2012)

SPNadminji,
I think that you are mixing Bhagatji's and my post together, when they are from two completely different angles! (I never quoted or commented the above mentioned!)


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2012)

Luckysingh ji

First quote is your comment at this permalink 

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/2139-do-sikhs-believe-in-angels.html#post177476

The second quote is from Bhagat Singh. 

I will put a line between the 2 to make it clear.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 26, 2012)

Veera There is nothing but Spirit ,this is Spirit Philosophy Network,Our Guru is our Spiritual advisor,Spirit embedded in writing is the key to our understanding,context comes and goes.Is not Sikhism a Spirit of sorts.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 27, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera There is nothing but Spirit ,this is Spirit Philosophy Network,Our Guru is our Spiritual advisor,Spirit embedded in writing is the key to our understanding,context comes and goes.Is not Sikhism a Spirit of sorts.


Veerji,
Everything is ultimately spirit. I speak in and of duality, about the various disembodied spirits and whether they are real. I think certain people can see/sense them, others cannot. Can you see disembodied spirits?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 27, 2012)

CHHAYAA..is the term that we refer to when we want to say that a Person is having a Evil Spirit..bhoot..pret..etc..( what others call EXORCISM RITES etc to cast out such Spirits etc)..and this CHHAIYAH is what the Dera Wadbhag Singh does...they drive out bhoots and prets...

But Page 433   http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=433

SGGS calls CHHAIYAH..."SPIRITUAL IGNORANCE"...as opposed to "SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE"...."Darkness is simply the ABSENCE of LIGHT...IGNORANCE is the absence of KNOWLEDGE...the SGGS is GYAAN...KNOWLEDGE...absence of Gyaan knowledge leads to *CHHAIYAH*.  PRITPAL SINGH in his monumental Thus sayeth Gurbani lsits several such shabds under spiritual ignorance/exorcism/bhoots/prets. evil spirits etc..all give the exact same meaning as SPIRITUAL IGNORANCE absence of GYAAN knowledge of the CREATOR.

Same meaning is given time and again through out the SGGS...but we need to have the GYAAN..the LIGHT..in order to be able to SEE...Absence of Gyaan Light leads to darkness spiritual IGNORANCE.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 27, 2012)

On a related Note..this tarksheel Society is a group of RATIONALISTS who although not religious based..do DISSEMINATE GYAAN-KNOWLEDGE to dispell thsi IGNORANCe and Darkness that afflicts all with CHHAIYAH..evil spirits bhoots prets etc...they have hundreds of case studies on their hands..and also lots of first hand stories...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarksheel_Society


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 27, 2012)

This LADY admits the SPIRIT of Baba DEEP SINGH never entered her at all..its all a Blatant LIE...No suhc SPIRIT ever EXISTED....  Hundreds of thousands of such TANTRIKS feed on the DARKNESS and IGNORANCE in the ABSENCE OF GYAAN revealed in SGGS.....IF we keep on SUPPORTING such SPIRITUAL IGNORANCE..then we are equally GUILTY of spreading IGNORANCE and DARKNESS...

pakhandi baba - YouTube


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 27, 2012)

> Everything is ultimately spirit,Can you see disembodied spirits?


Veera Since everything is spirit, there is no one that is embodied.This is the spirit world,it is all a "shadow play" occasionally you sense this but take everything to be real and think you've seen a ghost when actually you are the ghost.for the scientifically minded let us say you are both.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 27, 2012)

There is still no evidence of spirits apart from what people think they saw or heard. It is all in the mind and mind is not to be fully trusted!


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 28, 2012)

Veera in my not so humble opinion it is ,it is the spirit itself both projecting the world play and seeing it.


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## spnadmin (Feb 24, 2015)

Admin and mods do not have to engage in an online debate about deletions. This is the third time on that point Bhagat Singh ji that I have deleted your comments.. and yes that makes it spam. Move on. Thanks.

*Note: This thread began as a straightforward question long ago. It has recently turned into a playing field for tossing about quasi-Hindu explanation, which does no true justice to the richness of Hindu philosophy, nor is it consistent with Sikh philosophy, specifically the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. At times it was possible to move a thread with that sort of content to Interfaith Dialogs. In this case that won't work. Therefore: From now on, comments which draw parallelisms between "Advaita" philosophy (or any permutations) and gurmat will be removed and send to the Leaders section for review. They may or may not be returned to this thread at some future time.*


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