# Beware Of Fake Babas And Cults



## simpy (Mar 5, 2007)

Cults- Dangerous approach to destabilize a community. Every faith/religion is facing and has faced this disease for centuries.


Led by certainly not bad men/women, but EVIL BEINGS.


Cults, look wonderful on the outside but very manipulating on the inside. Cult leaders are desperate to trick you into joining their belief. They are after your obedience, your time and your hard earned money. Their targets include- intelligent, idealistic, well educated, economically advantaged, intellectually or Spiritually curious people of any age, especially youth. In the beginning they target people from their own community and later extend their practice to others belonging to different faiths and religions.


These fake babas use sophisticated mind control and recruitment techniques that have been refined over time. They read all the Scriptures carefully, and are very well aware of all the existing beliefs. Beware of thinking that you are immune from cult involvement, in our community cults have hundreds and thousands and some have even millions of members around the world who once thought they were immune, and still don't know they are in a cult! To spot a cult you need to know how they work and you need to understand the techniques they use to involve others into their nets. This effort is to make the Sadh Sangat aware of the tools and techniques used by fake babas.


Tips to spot Fake Babas- :


They knowingly lie to have enlightenment. They claim to give you enlightenment at a touch.

They are stuck in the intermediate zone and start believing that they are fully enlightened. These babas may have some genuine insight but deluded in the belief of the attainment of the highest state of consciousness. To prove their point they make unbelievable stories to manipulate your mind.


They are good artful showmen. They themselves are deluded and are very good at deluding others like perfect con-artists.


They make pacca promises of miracles as well as of Salvation/Mukti. 

They are merely more or less close to a bhai in Gurdwara Sahib, a pundit in a Temple, a priest in a Church, a rabbi in a Synagogue, an imam in a Mosque; but preaching all or partly the opposite……….No attainment of the Truth whatsoever.

They have nothing of their own, so will be using Scriptures from one or more religions. Some part out of which they will interpret truthfully, and the rest they twist and misinterpret to match their own self proclaimed beliefs. Let us put it this way, they have no message of their own. 

They are always against some major faith/religion. Abusive in nature. Their main goal is always to condemn one or more faiths, to make room for their so-called untrue belief.

Always advertising themselves and condemning others. Their main goal is to brain wash others and turn them from an objective rational beings into their faithful followers. Their common tools while practicing their art of deception are repetitions, promises coupled with threats, chanting, some form of controlled meditation and more.

They seem overly sincere in the beginning. They start with telling the truth-this is the best. First they tell them what people already know. Then they add some bits of truth in it, and then gradually they veer off into the realms of half-truths, fantasy, and finally total and plain lies. So they lead people from what is known and accepted, to what is unknown and doubted. This is their way of weaving a seamless fabric of fact and fantasy. 

They get irritated when confronted by the true believers from the faiths they are condemning. This is the time when they misinterpret others beliefs the most. You can see at that time how their art of misinterpretation is continually in a state of flux and have no sure foundation on which to anchor their hope. 

They openly support all other cults. Especially those who are against the same faith they are opposing.

Their knowledge and the blessings are for sale. Will accept expensive gifts and Money from their followers Shamelessly.

They manipulate devotees even sexually. Their common targets are young women.

They make it look like a religious group, this is a common mistake people make in spotting them. Haathi ke daant- khane ke aur, dikhane ke aur.

There are some cults who operate secretively, very interesting behaviour. These recruiters claim that they cannot talk in front of your family and/or friends. They perform their act of manipulation successively- first one person from a family or a group is chosen, brainwashed, and threatened(if you leave us-you will be on the path of eternal distruction). Then they use this person to scare the rest of the family.

They mix –Emotion, Intuition and Spirituality into one word-‘feeling’, where all the three are million light years apart.

These babas generally promote the false claim that God has revealed something special to them. Their belief is generally the truth that has never before been revealed and it always supersedes and contradicts all previous revelations. They claim that the mission of all/any previous Messiah(s) was left unfinished and the world is now ready for the completion of that work through them.

Some of these babas are a step ahead, they do not claim to any new truth; instead they believe that they alone have the key to interpret the mysteries in the existing Scriptures. Their statement here will be: The Scriptures are their only acknowledged source of authority, but they are interpreted unreasonably and in a way different from that of the Real Truth. 

Some of them say that the existing Scriptures are not complete. So they claim to have a true authoritative source.

Some cults claim one thing publicly but internally believe something totally different. Many such organizations call themselves true believers of the existing faiths and religions when in fact they totally or partially deny the fundamentals of that faith.

In some of these cults you can openly see the division of devotees on the basis of their economic status. In their Satsangs it is so obvious.

There was a time it was easy to spot a cult because they wore strange clothes, if not all, at least the fake baba did. Now, only some do, but mostly look like everyday people. These babas do not want you to realize that you are being recruited into a cult.

All sorts of people are involved in cults. Many cults are full of intelligent, attractive and skilled people. One of the few common denominators is that the followers were often recruited at a low point in their life. In this world of fake babas emotion is used to convert the unsuspecting. 

i encourage others to add more tips.

another must read thread-http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/1422-do-we-need-intermediaries-in-sikhism.html





Forgive me please…


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## sachyara (Mar 7, 2007)

wahguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji kee fateh!
Der bhenjee,

you sound like you have been hurt by a cult.  Is that true?

thanks


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## simpy (Mar 7, 2007)

sachyara said:


> wahguru ji ka khalsa
> waheguru ji kee fateh!
> Der bhenjee,
> 
> ...


 

*No i have not been hurt with Waheguru's grace, but the recruiters from all the active cults are always after others. Have seen them doing it very many times,  total of these cults are somewhere in hundreds which are well known and are always standing at your doorsteps telling you- 'your faith is not giving you anthing-you should try mine'. They do not know you, they do not know what your faith is, and most important thing is that they do not know that what they are telling others have NO REAL SPIRITUAL Realivence at all- but they do know that your faith is not working for you- wonderful....*



*it does not take much time to know what a person is trying to do, leave alone the possibility of getting hurt..... Have Faith in God*



*qw kau DoKw khw ibAwpY jw kau Et quhwrI** ] *

*qwqI vwau n lgeI pwrbRhm srxweI ]*
*cauigrd hmwrY rwm kwr duKu lgY n BweI ]1]*
*siqguru pUrw ByitAw ijin bxq bxweI ]*
*rwm nwmu AauKDu dIAw eykw ilv lweI ]1] rhwau ]*
*rwiK lIey iqin rKnhwir sB ibAwiD imtweI ]*
*khu nwnk ikrpw BeI pRB Bey shweI ]*




*forgive me please*


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## simpy (Mar 12, 2007)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji De Bachan*




*krm Drm pwKMf jo dIsih iqn jmu jwgwqI lUtY ]*
*inrbwx kIrqnu gwvhu krqy kw inmK ismrq ijqu CUtY ]1]*
*sMqhu swgru pwir auqrIAY ]*
*jy ko bcnu kmwvY sMqn kw so gur prswdI qrIAY ]1] rhwau ]*
*koit qIrQ mjn iesnwnw iesu kil mih mYlu BrIjY ]*
*swDsMig jo hir gux gwvY so inrmlu kir lIjY ]2]*
*byd kqyb isimRiq siB swsq ien@ piVAw mukiq n hoeI ]*
*eyku AKru jo gurmuiK jwpY iqs kI inrml soeI ]3]*
*KqRI bRwhmx sUd vYs aupdysu chu vrnw kau swJw ]*
*gurmuiK nwmu jpY auDrY so kil mih Git Git nwnk mwJw ]4]*






​*forgive me please*​


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## simpy (Mar 16, 2007)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji De Bachan*


*swjn myry pRIqmhu qum sh kI Bgiq kryho ]*
*guru syvhu sdw Awpxw nwmu pdwrQu lyho ]*
*Bgiq krhu qum shY kyrI jo sh ipAwry Bwvey ]*
*Awpxw Bwxw qum krhu qw iPir sh KusI n Awvey ]*
*Bgiq Bwv iehu mwrgu ibKVw gur duAwrY ko pwvey ]*
*khY nwnku ijsu kry ikrpw so hir BgqI icqu lwvey ]*​ 



*forgive me please*


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## simpy (Mar 18, 2007)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji De Bachan in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji page# 72*​ 


*siqguir imilAY Plu pwieAw ]*
*ijin ivchu Ahkrxu cukwieAw ]*
*durmiq kw duKu kitAw Bwgu bYTw msqik Awie jIau ]11]*
*AMimRqu qyrI bwxIAw ]*
*qyirAw Bgqw irdY smwxIAw ]*
*suK syvw AMdir riKAY AwpxI ndir krih insqwir jIau ]12]*​ 

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Raam Das Ji page #304*​ 
*qU vyprvwhu AQwhu hY Aqulu ikau qulIAY ]*
*sy vfBwgI ij quDu iDAwiedy ijn siqguru imlIAY ]*
*siqgur kI bwxI siq srUpu hY gurbwxI bxIAY ]*
*siqgur kI rIsY hoir kcu ipcu boldy sy kUiVAwr kUVy JiV pVIAY ]*
*En@w AMdir horu muiK horu hY ibKu mwieAw no JiK mrdy kVIAY ]*​


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 20, 2007)

NICE TOPIC


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji De Bachan in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji page# 72*​
> 
> 
> *siqguir imilAY Plu pwieAw ]*
> ...


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## Jassa (Mar 21, 2007)

but do u think we should point out fingers at any onw without full knowledge .... ???? these day monas hate babas who tell them to keep hairs to be sikh but love those who say sikhi is far above then hairs .... and in same way singhs hate such babas ....

every one love those baba who say ur doing right no need to change .... who say u need to change to be sikh is presented in society in such a way that he is fake

bhulchuk maaf


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## simpy (Mar 21, 2007)

Jassa said:


> but do u think we should point out fingers at any onw without full knowledge .... ???? these day monas hate babas who tell them to keep hairs to be sikh but love those who say sikhi is far above then hairs .... and in same way singhs hate such babas ....
> 
> every one love those baba who say ur doing right no need to change .... who say u need to change to be sikh is presented in society in such a way that he is fake
> 
> bhulchuk maaf


 

*Respected Jassa Ji,*


*This is the exact reason i am making an effort to make my fellow Sikhs aware of the truth about fake Babas/cults.*



*People are being misled by many cults. It is not happening only in Sikhism, it has happened and is happening in every good faith. When it goes on for a long time, more and more people get involved in the superstitions and wrong notions instead of their real faith and traditions. They start believing that whatever they have, is their faith, and as there are so many following the same practice- it becomes a fashion. Real faith fades away. We must learn from other's experiences, if somebody else has fallen into a ditch, all the efforts should be done not to fall into the same ditch, anything should be done to save ourself.*



*It is an effort to keep the 'SOUL OF SIKHI' alive in EVERY SIKH'S heart and mind.*



*note: i have used the word-'Baba'- it is easier this way for punjabis/sikhs to understand what i am talking about and to make it clear i used the prefix 'fake'. it makes it clear that i am not talking about 'good babas'- brahgiani/Saint/Bhagat;*
*i am talking about 'evil babas'.*




*This is an honest effort to stop people from- falling into superstitions/being misled/having a wrong interpretation of their own faith...... *



*This is done to bring AWARENESS. *









*forgive me please*


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 22, 2007)

My dear sister

u r very rite and true.. 
We should not follow any one superstitiously.. and normally people do so.. without having knowledge of the truth they start following such babas.
But our SGGS says lot of things about SADGURU/SADHUs .. SGGS has clearly explained everything about fake and good ones.

Ur post is very nice as always.. and very interesting..
can u please further elaborate.. which one is FAKE and which one is TRUE.. with quotes from GURUBANI.
so that the work u want to do in this thread can meet its objective.
and all of us can have clear understanding as per SGGS.
So please compile some quotes from SGGS about FAKE and TRUE masters.
I would be thankful to u on behalf of all.

GuruFateh.


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Jassa Ji,*
> 
> 
> *This is the exact reason i am making an effort to make my fellow Sikhs aware of the truth about fake Babas/cults.*
> ...


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## simpy (Mar 22, 2007)

*Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,*



*endless thanks to you as always.*



*Sari di Sari Bani sanu sahi jeuna sikhandi hai....*
*BANI NIRANKAAR HAI*





*vwhu vwhu bwxI inrMkwr hY iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ]*
*vwhu vwhu Agm AQwhu hY vwhu vwhu scw soie ]*
*vwhu vwhu vyprvwhu hY vwhu vwhu kry su hoie ]*
*vwhu vwhu AMimRq nwmu hY gurmuiK pwvY koie ]*
*vwhu vwhu krmI pweIAY Awip dieAw kir dyie ]*
*nwnk vwhu vwhu gurmuiK pweIAY Anidnu nwmu leyie ]1]*









*forgive me please*


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 22, 2007)

Guru fateh

Same with meaning
ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ  ਹੈ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਜੇਵਡੁ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु बाणी निरंकार है तिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu banee nirankaar hai tis jayvad avar na ko-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਅਗਮ  ਅਥਾਹੁ  ਹੈ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਸਚਾ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु अगम अथाहु है वाहु वाहु सचा सोइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu agam athaahu hai vaahu vaahu sachaa so-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! The Lord is unfathomable and inaccessible. Waaho! Waaho! He is the True One. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ  ਹੈ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਸੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु वेपरवाहु है वाहु वाहु करे सु होइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu vayparvaahu hai vaahu vaahu karay so ho-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! He is the self-existent Lord. Waaho! Waaho! As He wills, so it comes to pass. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਹੈ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਪਾਵੈ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु अम्रित नामु है गुरमुखि पावै कोइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu amrit naam hai gurmukh paavai ko-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! is the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtained by the Gurmukh. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਕਰਮੀ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਆਪਿ  ਦਇਆ  ਕਰਿ  ਦੇਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु करमी पाईऐ आपि दइआ करि देइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu karmee paa-ee-ai aap da-i-aa kar day-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! This is realized by His Grace, as He Himself grants His Grace. 
ਨਾਨਕ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਲਏਇ  ॥੧॥ 
नानक वाहु वाहु गुरमुखि पाईऐ अनदिनु नामु लएइ ॥१॥ 
naanak vaahu vaahu gurmukh paa-ee-ai an-din naam la-ay-ay. ||1|| 
O Nanak, Waaho! Waaho! This is obtained by the Gurmukhs, who hold tight to the Naam, night and day. ||1||

BUT SISTER THERE ARE NO REFERENCES THAT GURUBANI GIVES ABOUT TRUE/FAKE gurus

Please put it early .. m waiting

forgive me please
Gurufateh




Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 22, 2007)

Guru fateh ji behan

 Same with meaning as u posted
ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ  ਹੈ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਜੇਵਡੁ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु बाणी निरंकार है तिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu banee nirankaar hai tis jayvad avar na ko-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਅਗਮ  ਅਥਾਹੁ  ਹੈ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਸਚਾ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु अगम अथाहु है वाहु वाहु सचा सोइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu agam athaahu hai vaahu vaahu sachaa so-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! The Lord is unfathomable and inaccessible. Waaho! Waaho! He is the True One. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ  ਹੈ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਸੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु वेपरवाहु है वाहु वाहु करे सु होइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu vayparvaahu hai vaahu vaahu karay so ho-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! He is the self-existent Lord. Waaho! Waaho! As He wills, so it comes to pass. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਹੈ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਪਾਵੈ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु अम्रित नामु है गुरमुखि पावै कोइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu amrit naam hai gurmukh paavai ko-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! is the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtained by the Gurmukh. 

ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਕਰਮੀ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਆਪਿ  ਦਇਆ  ਕਰਿ  ਦੇਇ  ॥ 
वाहु वाहु करमी पाईऐ आपि दइआ करि देइ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu karmee paa-ee-ai aap da-i-aa kar day-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! This is realized by His Grace, as He Himself grants His Grace. 
ਨਾਨਕ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਲਏਇ  ॥੧॥ 
नानक वाहु वाहु गुरमुखि पाईऐ अनदिनु नामु लएइ ॥१॥ 
naanak vaahu vaahu gurmukh paa-ee-ai an-din naam la-ay-ay. ||1|| 
O Nanak, Waaho! Waaho! This is obtained by the Gurmukhs, who hold tight to the Naam, night and day. ||1||

BUT SISTER THERE ARE NO REFERENCES THAT GURUBANI GIVES ABOUT TRUE/FAKE gurus

Please put it early .. m waiting

forgive me please
Gurufateh




Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## simpy (Mar 22, 2007)

*Respected Sahil Ji,*




*endless thanks to you again and again, sir.*



*it looks like you did not read and understand the post clearly, sir.*


*ALL OF THE GURBANI TELLS US THE RIGHT WAY TO LIVE- SO IT TELLS US THE WAY TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COMPRISED OF ALL THE GOOD QUALITIES LIKE:discriminating intellect (Viveka Budhi), non-attachment (Vairaagya), unconditional love and compassion for all living beings (Daya), Self-knowledge (Aatma-Gian), selfless service, meditation (Japa or Naam-Simran), righteous living, goodness, fearlessness, mental steadfastness, tranquility, magnanimity, true humility, contentment, sweet speech, unselfishness, relinquishment, pure vision, intuitively balanced consciousness, immutability, freedom from craving (Vaasnaas or latent tendencies) for sense gratification, and so on. SO ALL THESE QUALITIES MUST BE PRESENT IN A TRUE SAINT/BRAHMGIANI. A PERSON WHO IS MISSING ANY OF THESE QUALITIES IS A FAKE BABA. *


*THIS IS WRITTEN IN BANI ALL OVER- IT WILL BE STUPID TO SORT AND SEARCH. *








*forgive me please*


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 22, 2007)

My dear sister

I really understood what u wrote(in ur previous post) there .. thats why i put the meaning in my previous post .....
but it is not written in quote that u represented in this post..
I read now what ever u have wrote in ur post ..
although gurubani says so much about master(fake/true).. but can u really tell how do u know that master have such qualities(that u put) or not...

for example:: can u tell what is *Self-knowledge (Aatma-Gian) *with help of  GURUBANI.

Please put the quotes .. because as u know very well .. in gurubani on each n every page there is MAHIMA of true master.. and also tells what happens when a true master comes to ur life..on the other hand it also tells who are FAKE.. if u want me to put then i can put it for all.
but first preference is for u only.. because ur knowledge is good.
so please put  n then i will put.

Gurufateh



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Sahil Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## simpy (Mar 22, 2007)

*Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,*



*endless thanks to you again and again.*




*it seems like you have a very intense desire to dig deep into this topic. i am not stopping you, am i, if i am in any manner- i apologize humbly…… *

*me neech is nothing, sir, and has done a small effort with Waheguru's grace, does not have any longing to explore it further. *

*Everybody can only use his or her own commonsense, with Waheguru’s grace that cannot be spoonfed.*







*forgive me please*


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 23, 2007)

GuruFateh

My intense is only to continue the topic u started..
because we are really neech, but we have gurubani that give us AKAL so please through gurubani 
we can complete the topic and cn give a rite direction to this topic
OK if u dont want to put.. I will put it

GuruFateh


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Sahil Makkar Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## simpy (Mar 23, 2007)

*Endlessly thanks once again Respected Sahil VeerJi,*

*this way you will be of great help sir, my sincere effort is to keep this topic in the first 5/10 posts all the time.....*

*endless thanks to you in advance*




*forgive me please*


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 23, 2007)

GuruFateh surinder behan

Lets take some quotes from gurubani which tells , that what happens when a true-saint comes to our life

So lets start with Page no. 293...
ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ  ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਡੀਠਾ  ॥ 
संतसंगि अंतरि प्रभु डीठा ॥ 
satsang antar parabh deethaa. 
In the Society of the Saints, I see God deep within my being. 

ਨਾਮੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ  ਕਾ  ਲਾਗਾ  ਮੀਠਾ  ॥ 
नामु प्रभू का लागा मीठा ॥ 
naam parabhoo kaa laagaa meethaa. 
God's Name is sweet to me. 

*These lines are clearly saying that when we see GOD deep within me with help of saints.... then GOD's Name becomes sweet to us.*
ਸਗਲ  ਸਮਿਗ੍ਰੀ  ਏਕਸੁ  ਘਟ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥ 
सगल समिग्री एकसु घट माहि ॥ 
sagal samagree aykas ghat maahi. 
All things are contained in the Heart of the One, 

ਅਨਿਕ  ਰੰਗ  ਨਾਨਾ  ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਹਿ  ॥ 
अनिक रंग नाना द्रिसटाहि ॥ 
anik rang naanaa daristaahi. 
although they appear in so many various colors. 

*These lines are saying .. All things are in our heart.. and that things appear to us in various colors out side too
*(JOI BRAHAMANDE SOI PINDE , JO KHOJE SO PAAVE.*::: SGGS ---means all that is outside is inside too in body, who search insides gets it). WE EVEN KNOW THIS.. but its clear here that, it is said after GOD HAS BEEN SEEN, means person when saw GOD within him is saying these lines. So saying after seeing matters.. we can say anything about Gurus.. but fact is that we dont know .. we have not seen GOD with in us.*
ਨਉ  ਨਿਧਿ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕਾ  ਨਾਮੁ  ॥ 
नउ निधि अम्रितु प्रभ का नामु ॥ 
na-o niDh amrit parabh kaa naam. 
The nine treasures are in the Ambrosial Name of God. 

ਦੇਹੀ  ਮਹਿ  ਇਸ  ਕਾ  ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੁ  ॥ 
देही महि इस का बिस्रामु ॥ 
dayhee meh is kaa bisraam. 
Within the human body is its place of rest. 

*ANd this line says ::::GOD is within Human body*

ਸੁੰਨ  ਸਮਾਧਿ  ਅਨਹਤ  ਤਹ  ਨਾਦ  ॥ 
सुंन समाधि अनहत तह नाद ॥ 
sunn samaaDh anhat tah naad. 
The Deepest Samaadhi, and the unstruck sound current of the Naad are there. 

*and only former line is saying something about Anahad naad. which can be heard inside a human body
* 
ਕਹਨੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ਅਚਰਜ  ਬਿਸਮਾਦ  ॥ 
कहनु न जाई अचरज बिसमाद ॥ 
kahan na jaa-ee achraj bismaad. 
The wonder and marvel of it cannot be described.

*THough this thing cant be described .. but yet gurubani has written some states.. and some experience of bhagats who got true guru,
and what happens when a true master comes to life.. some instant effects are there.. and some comes after deep meditation..

Please put ur comments .. so that i can continue

Gurufateh behan.
* 


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Endlessly thanks once again Respected Sahil VeerJi,*
> 
> *this way you will be of great help sir, my sincere effort is to keep this topic in the first 5/10 posts all the time.....*
> 
> ...


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## simpy (Mar 23, 2007)

*Respected Makkar Ji,*



*First of all, please stop misinterpreting Gurbani.*
*endlessly thanks to you again and again for being with us.*

*your words(i refer to only those words written by you and not gurbani as well as not the translations you got from-*srigranth.org. *in your post) depict-YOUR GURU IS LIMITED TO ONLY A PHYSICAL FORM.*

*Bani you are reffering to, does not tell me that.*

*You are limiting Sant to a physical living human being. A true Saint's Company is not limted to a company of a physical body, sir. It is in Spiritual Sense and it is felt within and it is seen by the mind's eye.*

*To become Sachyara we have to do all the work of purification at the mental level, no physical effort do any assistance here. CAN A SAINT's PHYSICAL BODY ENTER into your mind! It is his words that penetrates into your mind and then the you do contemplation on those said words and then follow the teaching in reality.*

*Gurbani Says-*

*Man mairyaa antar tere nidhaan hai tu baahar vast naa bhaal*

*GURU MERE SANG SADAA HAI NAALAY.....*

*PURA PRABHU ARADHEYA PURA JAA KAA NAAOO*

*qyry bcn AnUp Apwr sMqn AwDwr bwxI bIcwrIAY* *jIau ]*



*and respected Sahil Veer ji you do not need my comments to continue,* these are nothing, i am sagal ki renka. 

*Once again a humble request-when you are explaining Bani in your own words- you are misinterpreting it, please do not do this. i am making a request with folded hands. *
*PLEASE DONOT DISRESPECT DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI.*


*forgive me please*


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## Vikram singh (Mar 23, 2007)

very informative,keep up good job
SSA
Vikram Singh


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 26, 2007)

Dear behan surinder

Ok , from now I will not try to explain the meanings to u, but u please do explain the meanings of the lines I wrote,
Are u not able to simply understand ,, what Sadhu is, so please tell me what u understand from these lines,

*WHAT IS WRONG HERE...*
ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ  ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਡੀਠਾ  ॥ 
संतसंगि अंतरि प्रभु डीठा ॥ 
satsang antar parabh deethaa. 
In the Society of the Saints, I see God deep within my being. 

ਨਾਮੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ  ਕਾ  ਲਾਗਾ  ਮੀਠਾ  ॥ 
नामु प्रभू का लागा मीठा ॥ 
naam parabhoo kaa laagaa meethaa. 
God's Name is sweet to me. 

*These lines are clearly saying that when we see GOD deep within me with help of saints.... then GOD's Name becomes sweet to us.*

*U PLEASE TELL THE MEANING OF THESE LINES , IF I MISINTERPRATED, WHAT U UNDERSTAND FROM THESE LINES.

m not copying each n every line that i posted b4 , please tell the meaning of each n every lines that i quoted there in earlier thread.. 

I leave all on u.. u tell...
n please tell the meaning of 'SEE(* ਡੀਠਾ*)' too.
**
U WROTE::::
it is seen by the mind's eye... YA GOD CAN BE SEEN BY MIND's EYE(NO DOUBT ABOUT IT).. AND GURUBANI SAYS IT DIVINE EYE(DIB DRISHTI)..
AND HOW IT OPENS.. we will discuss U AFTER REPLY.

Forgive me please.
**
*


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Makkar Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 26, 2007)

Dear behan surinder

Ok , from now I will not try to explain the meanings to u, but u please
do explain the meanings of the lines I wrote,
Are u not able to simply understand ,, what Sadhu is, so please tell me
what u understand from these lines, 

WHAT IS WRONG HERE...
ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ  ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਡੀਠਾ  ॥ 
संतसंगि अंतरि प्रभु डीठा ॥ 
satsang antar parabh deethaa. 
In the Society of the Saints, I see God deep within my being. 

ਨਾਮੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ  ਕਾ  ਲਾਗਾ  ਮੀਠਾ  ॥ 
नामु प्रभू का लागा मीठा ॥ 
naam parabhoo kaa laagaa meethaa. 
God's Name is sweet to me. 

*These lines are clearly saying that when we see GOD deep within me with help of saints.... then GOD's Name becomes sweet to us.*

*U PLEASE TELL THE MEANING OF THESE LINES , IF I MISINTERPRATED, WHAT U
UNDERSTAND FROM THESE LINES.

m not copying each n every line that i posted b4 , please tell the
meaning of each n every lines that i quoted there in earlier thread.. 

I leave all on u.. u tell...
n please tell the meaning of 'SEE( ਡੀਠਾ)' too.

U WROTE::::
it is seen by the mind's eye... YA GOD CAN BE SEEN BY MIND's EYE(NO
DOUBT ABOUT IT).. AND GURUBANI SAYS IT DIVINE EYE(DIB DRISHTI)..
AND HOW IT OPENS.. we will discuss U AFTER REPLY.

Forgive me please. * 


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Makkar Ji,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## simpy (Mar 26, 2007)

*This is another trick these fake Babas and fake cults using-*

*these days they use internet for their advertisement. They get access to the email addresses(so many companies sell these, just like telephone numbers) and preech about their socalled faith. Usually nice and long emails. All the effort is done to point once attention to the low points of life. And here they can do it easily and can grab a large number of people.*

*forgive me please*


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 28, 2007)

Gurufateh surinder bhenji

reply te kar do
jeda tusi misinterpret baare kya si

Gurufateh


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *This is another trick these fake Babas and fake cults using-*
> 
> *these days they use internet for their advertisement. They get access to the email addresses(so many companies sell these, just like telephone numbers) and preech about their socalled faith. Usually nice and long emails. All the effort is done to point once attention to the low points of life. And here they can do it easily and can grab a large number of people.*
> 
> *forgive me please*


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## Sahota (Mar 28, 2007)

Respected Aman Veer and all the Leaders and Members on this Forum,

I am trying to post and your Forum is not letting me. And you have posts from all these people who misinterpret Gurbani. What is going on?





I have a few words to say about those who are misinterpreting Gurbani- Balbir Singh and Sahil Makkar. No simple warnings are going to work on them as Surinder Ji is doing. They do not care.

This is nobody else but-NARINDER SINGH GREWAL or SURINDER SINGH MULTANI AND/OR THEIR FOLLOWERS.

I myself was a victim one time. They were very nice to me in the beginning, but were refusing to tell me their real names, their family, profession and all that. I have been a gursikh since I am born, I know a lot of Gurbani myself. The minute I realized they were mistranslating Gurbani this way, I tried to talk to them. They started threatening me. I was told that I will be thrown to a never ending hell and destruction cycle. It took me a long time to find out who they really were. I had no idea I will finding this kind of Horrible People behind those normal looking faces. Only I know how I got out of their clutch. 


Please be careful, they will not listen to anybody, you can try forever to describe Shabad correctly. They are a bunch of mentally retarded people, who refuse to take any social, medical, spiritual and psychological help. And they go up to the point of calling Waheguru as well as all the Gurus a Kan-jar, Har-ami, Sw-ah, To-ta, Mo-the-rfuk-ker……and so on. 

As a gursikh I am doing this as I consider it my duty to warn others against this. And I am pretty sure the way they are, they must already have brainwashed a lot of people on your forum.   

Waheguru Mehar Kar.
[FONT=Times New
 Roman][/FONT] 
Lakhwinder Singh Sahota


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## Sahota (Mar 28, 2007)

thankyou for letting me post, I tried the introducing my self thread and it didn't let me.


Lakhwinder Singh Sahota


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 28, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Lakhwinder Jee!

I hope and pray you are not representing Sikhi. You may be a naturist but this forum is not a nudist beach.
Please take care to use such words for the reverent Gurus behind the wall of blaming others. This filth is flowing out of your post though.

You wrote "I know a lot of Gurbani myself."
Please participate on forums in a constructive way. Write a sacred Vaak from Gurdev and explain it in your words. Thanks. 

with respect


Balbir Singh


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 29, 2007)

Sahota said:


> Respected Aman Veer and all the Leaders and Members on this Forum,
> 
> I am trying to post and your Forum is not letting me. And you have posts from all these people who misinterpret Gurbani. What is going on?
> 
> ...



*Vaheguru ji da khalsa vaheguru ji di fateh,*

Today, its a great grace of GOD, that we have such forums to discuss on the things,
and here we are discussing the GURUBANI, Although Gurubani says that, "No arguments prove the existence of GOD, n no arguments can prove that GOD DOES NOT EXIST",
Gurubani also says"*VED KARE VAKHYAN, ANT NA PAVANA, PADIYE NAHI BHED BHUJIYE BHAVANA*"::: MEANS vedas and all other scriptures are explaining(*VAKHYAN*), but through these mere explanations we cant attain the salvation, So not only read(*PADIYE*), but try to understand(*BHUJIYE*) the mystery/secret(*BHED*).

And if u understand the meaning, then u will come to know that GOD can be seen, atonce when Guru gives u shabad.

Thats all,
Dear u said that m misinterprating, then can u give me the correct interpretation of that,
Go n ask anyone. n bring some good interprations, so that if we are wrong then we can improve,
and if u cant interprate then how u r saying,
Sorry , if I said something wrong, but U please give me the interpratations and correct me.

I will be thankful to u for enlightning us.
GuruFateh


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Dear surinder behan ji

haje tak twada reply nahi aaya, waiting for that, pata te chale ki mein ki misinterpret kita

Guru fateh*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2007)

If you people are from *Narinder Grewal* or *Nirankaris* why not just admit what you are? Why hide and deceive and lie like demons? Why you dare to distort Gurbani?

If this is true, you have no Panthic right to even use Gurbani or speak to Sikhs. You are under social boycott. Narinder Grewal's people are not to even use the internet to spread their teachings.


*Narinder Grewal is NOT a Sikh by his own statement to the Panj Piaras!*



> In a written and signed statement, Grewal acknowledged that he had been running his own style of religious congregation in which he used references to the Sikh Gurus, Sikh Scriptures and the basics of the Sikh Religion. He agreed to meet before the Panj Payaras at the Gurdwara to seek forgiveness and apologize to the community on video. Grewal also agreed "not to preach or to use any references to Sikh Gurus, Sikh Religion, Sikh scriptures … until a final decision on this issue is made by the Akal Takht…" He also agreed to stop preaching through his website, the internet and email groups. Grewal's website is now off-line and his activities on the internet have ceased.
> On June 20, Narinder Grewal appeared before the Panj Payaras and the Sikh Sangat at the Oakville Gurdwara to repent his misdeeds. With him was a police officer who accompanied him for protection.
> Grewal did not give satisfactory answers to the questions asked by the Panj Payaras. He kept apologizing but did not give details of his wrong doings. Grewal also denied that he was a Singh. Therefore, the Panj Payaras and the sangat did not pardon him.
> 
> ...


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## simpy (Apr 6, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*other must read links*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-philosophy/15222-dera-sacha-sauda.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/15219-question-all-who-question-authenticity-sikh.html


*forgive me please*


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2007)

Surinder ji

Your thread is itself a service, especially in an electronic forum. Today people everywhere are desparate because they are truly orphaned by political and economic upheaval of one kind or another throughout the world. They are frightened, and they feel they are alone. And today's world is a spiritual desert. 

Young people in particular, when they reach for a spiritual solution, fall prey to false babas (and they are found in every religion). A fake baba's message is cunning-- it is designed to fill a well of fear. They are easy to talk to. They "know where you are coming from" and have answers. They are true scholars of wickedness because they have studied human nature and know how to make impossible promises in a convincing way.

I read the post of deerasachasuda (see your link above) a week or so ago. The post tells us about Deera Sacha Suda Sirsa which is an organization with a sophisticated string of web sites. It was easy to google. Here is a quote from one web site:

"The organisation's more than 12.5million members work under the dynamic and perspicacious directions of Guru Maharaj Gurmeet Ram   ahim Singh ji. He is known for his versatility, impeccable guidance, discretion, vision, humility and love for humanity. He always leads from the front and s always present at the site of action. For last few years, Dera has encompassed Disaster Management in it’s ambit. In Feb. 2001, Guruji raised  a special  disaster management force by the name of “Shah Satnam ji Green ‘S’ Welfare Force". It comprises of 15,000 exterous volunteers who have vowed  to help people in the country during natural disasters. According to people who have witnessed them at work “This force has the potential to do the impossible". The practical method of meditation, which the Guruji teaches charge the batteries of these indefatigable  selfless  olunteers.Dera Sacha Sauda is a perfect example of harmony and brotherhood among different religions and castes." 

I am not going to give the url, because why should I make it easy? Look at the convincing but cunning rhetoric! The background is brilliant: A natural disaster to match the inner chaos of a lost soul. The organization has over 12 million members, and an impeccable guru who can charge your batteries, who is a perfect example of harmony, is always on the front line of disasters, and who is also humble. This is part of one paragraph on more than a dozen web sites which all sound like this. The cult and its guru are out there to help you (you can bet on that). And they offer spiritual guidance that is one-size-fits-all. You just have to be desparate enough.

Now everything on these web sites is about ego. Ego says, "I/we have a lock on the truth. I/we know you are miserable and want to be rescued I/we have the answers, and will rescue you. We will care for your body, your mind and your soul. How could 12.5 million people be wrong?" 

A "true guru" (in human form) doesn't run after students. Doesn't strive to be found. A guru doesn't give out answers, because if he/she did, students would have no chance to make discoveries that sustain them. All the wisdom would remain with the guru and the students would gain nothing. A guru doesn't claim to be wise (that is really important) because a  guru is completely aware that he/she is also full of failings and must turn to God for support over and over again. A guru doesn't want to charge your batteries, or need a web site. When a guru is on the scene of a disaster, most people won't even realize they are in the presence of a guru. That is humility. A guru doesn't need a web site. When you are ready for a guru, the guru is there.

We should read Soul Jyot's thread on another link to better understand.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/15229-haume-and-naam.html

You are deeply concerned about the religious manipulation of so many lost souls. You have taken on a big seva here. We need to support you in this.


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## simpy (Apr 26, 2007)

*‘DMn DMn sRI guru  nwnk dyv jI’*​​*“sc kI bwxI nwnku AwKY scu suxwiesI sc kI bylw ]”*​*such kee baanee naanuk aakhai such sunaaeisee such kee baelaa *​*Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. *​​


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## spnadmin (Apr 26, 2007)

Surinder  ji

Every line in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib is a message of deliverance that raises us and preserves our dignity. Please continue shining a light on all this bad medicine.

Many thanks


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## SSMDCX (Apr 26, 2007)

It Sounds Like She Has The Authority To Define What Is Fake And What Is Not Fake - For Us Everything Is Fake Except Akal Purakh


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## simpy (Apr 26, 2007)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji De Bachan*


*haumY nwvY nwil ivroDu hY duie n vsih iek Twie ]*
*haumY ivic syvw n hoveI qw mnu ibrQw jwie ]1]*
*hir cyiq mn myry qU gur kw sbdu kmwie ]*
*hukmu mMnih qw hir imlY qw ivchu haumY jwie ] rhwau ]*
*haumY sBu srIru hY haumY Epiq hoie ]*
*haumY vfw gubwru hY haumY ivic buiJ n skY koie ]2]*
*haumY ivic Bgiq n hoveI hukmu n buiJAw jwie ]*
*haumY ivic jIau bMDu hY nwmu n vsY min Awie ]3]*
*nwnk sqguir imilAY haumY geI qw scu visAw min Awie ]*
*scu kmwvY sic rhY scy syiv smwie ]4]*


*forgive me please*


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## spnadmin (Apr 26, 2007)

SSMDCX my friend,

We are getting into heavy theology and metaphysics here.

"Sounds Like She Has The Authority To Define What Is Fake And What Is Not Fake - For Us Everything Is Fake Except Akal Purakh"

If everything is Fake Except Akal Purakh, then who will be there to meditate upon Akal Purakh! 

If everything is Fake Except Akal Purakh, then everything created by him is by your declaration Fake (false or nonexistent).

If everything is Fake Except Akal Purakh, then it is a Fake world that is meditating upon Akal Purakh.

If everything is Fake Except Akal Purakh, then Akal Purakh created only that which is Fake.

If Akal Purakh is self-created, then Akal Purakh must also be fake, according to your logic. Unless you believe that something or someone else created Akal Purakh.

What are you saying?


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## simpy (Apr 26, 2007)

* Respected aad0002 ji  ,*

*his/her use of this statement is very shrewd, as this can be used to manipulate innocent minds.*

*as it is said in Gurbani-*

*panna 1429, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Teg Bahadur Ji De Bachan*

*jg rcnw sB JUT hY jwin lyhu ry mIq ]*
*kih nwnk iQru nw rhY ijau bwlU kI BIiq ]*


*because these manipulators can misuse it for their own purpose.*

*Where The fact is- IT IS FALSE IN A SENSE THAT IT IS NOT IMMORTAL. IT IS WAHEGURU'S SARGUN SAROOP.*

*SO THIS UNDERSTANDING IS NECESSARY TO KNOW FAKE IN WHAT SENSE *

*BECAUSE- it matters HOW WE ARE LOOKING AT IT-*



*Guru Ji also says-*

*ikAw hm jIA jMq bycwry brin n swkh eyk romweI ]*
*bRhm mhys isD muin ieMdRw byAMq Twkur qyrI giq nhI pweI ]1]*
*ikAw kQIAY ikCu kQnu n jweI ]*
*jh jh dyKw qh rihAw smweI ]1] rhwau ]*
*jh mhw BieAwn dUK jm sunIAY qh myry pRB qUhY shweI ]*
*srin pirE hir crn ghy pRB guir nwnk kau bUJ buJweI ]*



*srb joiq qyrI psir rhI ]*
*jh jh dyKw qh nrhrI ]1]*
*jIvn qlb invwir suAwmI ]*
*AMD kUip mwieAw mnu gwifAw ikau kir auqrau pwir suAwmI ]1] rhwau ]*
*jh BIqir Gt BIqir bisAw bwhir kwhy nwhI ]*
*iqn kI swr kry inq swihbu sdw icMq mn mwhI ]2]*
*Awpy nyVY Awpy dUir ]*
*Awpy srb rihAw BrpUir ]*
*sqguru imlY AMDyrw jwie ]*
*jh dyKw qh rihAw smwie ]3]*
*AMqir shsw bwhir mwieAw nYxI lwgis bwxI ]*
*pRxviq nwnku dwsin dwsw prqwpihgw pRwxI ]4]*



*so it matters what we look at- are we lost in outer appearance visible to human eye or we looking for the DIVINE PRESENCE within  .*

*forgive me please*


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## simpy (Apr 28, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji*

*within past few days- TWO NEW POINTS ON THE FACTS ON FAKE BABAS have been experienced.*

*1. In their conversation you can easily pin point- two or more interpretations of the same word and usually totally opposite, they try to confuse you as much as possible.*

*2. If someone present the truth to them, they start defending themselves by denouncing that person's position otherwise as - they don't have anything left to say on the subject under consideration, afterall NO MESSAGE OF THEIR OWN.....*

*forgive me please*

*and another related link*
*http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/15239-spiritual-discovery-through-dhan-dhan-siri.html*


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## spnadmin (Apr 28, 2007)

Surinder ji

You are describing something important. Here could be some explanations but all theory. 

1. They are speaking for the Baba, as you suggest, but are so brainwashed that they have lost the ability to think clearly. They simply can't do more than repeat a script even when someone has changed the questions.

2. They are young (16 years or older to may about 25 or so), have heard a mystical message from the Baba, that excites them but haven't really analyzed what they are hearing-- used critical thinking.

3. Why? Sometimes we lack confidence in our own thought processes. Or sometimes we are emotionally immature. And the Baba is saying something that we don't understand but is promising to rescue us. We give up our independence and can't respond because we aren't thinking clearly.

If these theories are even partly correct, then the people who are not victims of false Baba's need to rise up and thank God.

Thank you for spurring us to think


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## simpy (May 12, 2007)

*Respected aad0002 ji,*

*you are right, this fake promise of rescuing and false assurances are the basic tools these fake babaa's are using prominanetly to exploit others......*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## spnadmin (May 13, 2007)

Sachyara ji,

Can't speak for Surinder ji but something tells me that the answer is NO she hasn't been hurt personally. She'll say one way or the other. 

What we read by Surinder is probably the most complete list, over all the posts in the thread, of who starts a cult, why they do it, the messages their victims are likely to hear, and how their victims are likely to be lured into something that is over their heads. She has it covered.

Why is the thread important-- that's covered too. But consider the power of the Internet to draw vulnerable people to a cause, to prowl around looking for targets on a forum, to stalk potential targets through private messaging, to trick adolescents into meeting somewhere or sharing addresses and phone numbers, to ask for donations and credit card numbers. Often against the law, these things will often happen before families know and law enforcement can get involved.

So why not use the same power of the Internet to balance the scales with information? 

The only other option is to ban the Internet. And that wouldn't stop cults anyway.

Respectfully


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## Parma (May 14, 2007)

Very true!!! The gurbarni was preached by the guru's people that believe in anything other than god are not following gods message. Follow the messages not a person. Not a being. Believe in god. Do not percieve others as god. There is only one god who is perfect and everything else is imperfect. Perfect for what they are, not perfection. The gurbarni is the best form to become pure. Even the guru's have said the one that calls them god should go to hell. NO ONE IS ABOVE GOD.

Thank you for bringing this up! Wahaguru and guru granth sahib. Its all the guru's one needs. Guru granth sahib is a collection of teachings from the guru's about wahaguru and wahaguru is the almighty, teacher learner discipliner life changer all everything. Dont fall onto man, fall into god with faith.


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## simpy (May 14, 2007)

*ALSO REMEMBER- ALL IS GOD , and let us keep our ego under control while knowing the FACTS taught by GURU JI*

*GURU IS GOD,  yes a true Guru is devoid of EGO, so can never claim to be God. JUST LIKE GOD TAKES CARE OF US, FEED US, SAADI ROTI ROZI DA PARBANDH, HE DOES ALL, BUT NEVER CLAIMS TO BE KARTA... SAME IS GURU- never calims to be the ONE...*

*THIS IS THE VERY FIRST POINT, a fake Guru can be caught at....when he/she claims to be God. *

*this is me neech understand.*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness.*


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## kaur-1 (May 15, 2007)

Just watch the "kartuta" of this "maha" troublemarker anti-Sikh group.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/15326-sgpc-dera-men-clash-12-injured.html

Just look at the picture of "moneh's" beating up a Sikh in that link. Absolutely disgraceful picture. 

Constant hate and aggression against the Sikhs in anti-Sikh gurmat cults and sects, '84 carnage (cowardly act against the Sikhs), proganda and anti-sikh, anti-gurbani, anti-Gur Sikhi post's in forums! etc etc.

All this is Cowardly acts against a minority. Besharam human race!.

For God's sakes learn Gurbani, understand Gurbani and Live Gurbani.  Understand why we have been given a human life.


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## spnadmin (May 15, 2007)

Surinder ji

You choice of shabd's was perfect for this discussion. We should go onto the net and read all of them, the entire page, for each one. Especially now that we have also read the new articles from Soul Jyot and Kaur 1.

Does anyone want to know if we are in kalyug? Read on.


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## simpy (May 15, 2007)

*Respected aad0002 ji,*

*sure, we can also start posting the translations from different sources for these shabads in this thread as well. *

*Kalyug is here, but we can keep ourselves from its heat by engrossing ourselves in the Shabad all the time  . this practice will give us courage to face what is going on today and it will also provide us the power to fight for our rights as humans and as Sikhs.*

*Respected kaur-1 ji there are many other trouble makers out there, let us keep working on making everybody aware of these pakhandies. thanks for the link. *


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 16, 2007)

Never take a stick to a gunfight. 

Fakesant rapist Ram Rahim needs to go the way of Gurbachana Nirankari. 

http://www.nahal.com/jathranjit.JPG
*Jathedar Bhai Rangit Singh who executed fakesant Gurbachana Nirankari for ordering attack on peacefully protesting Gursikhs on Baisakhi day 1978.*


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## simpy (May 16, 2007)

*Cult Recruiters working in groups: *

*To brainwash the innocent minds these groups play a lot of tricks. *

*Usually they play their game in such manner that there are very high chances the listener/reader(in today’s internet world) can get lost in their woven web if not paying much attention or does not know much about his/her own religion.*

*At first all the members belonging to the same group appear to be all different people.*
*One example:*

*One of them will say- your religion is useless and will slander your religion to the most. Will be the one who irritates you first so it is easier for others to do their part of the work.*

*The other will come to you afterwards and convince you to believe that he/she knows exactly what your religion is about and by making up a story according to the stuation in hand will actually pose to support you. But all this person will say is what the slanderer is already telling you about your own religion, their effort to make you think and then believe that the slanderer was right.*

*Then some other will act as a pacifier and suggest different ways to fight the slanderer and offers full support(claiming to follow the same religion as yours, so he/she knows all), but will also try (his/her best) to convince you that the ground of fight and the mode of fight has to be chosen by him/her as of course(according to him) you don’t know anything about your religion. *

*The others if there are any, all will come with the same kind of lies about your religion and will do anything to convince you to believe they are right and you must follow them. They are good at making up all the different kinds of stories, all learned and experienced people in this field of recruiting. *

*Other Example:*
*all the members of the same group appearing to be seperate, become your friends, and slowly slowly start building an atmosphere where you may start questioning your own faith. As more than one person is saying the same thing, it is natural to believe it for a weaker mind. *


*Humbly asking for everybody’s forgiveness*


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## Parma (May 17, 2007)

Surrinder Ji. Why do you always ask for forgiveness. Unless you say something you dont mean? Never say something you dont want to, no one is forcing you too Ha ha. The world is full of thought keep your thoughts clear and with the gurbarni not out of context. Some will say the glass is half empty some will say its half full. Realise the person who had the glass and the water is the only one who knows. Its your mind control it, dont give it to others to control. Media, TV, forums. Over coming obsitcals gives you strength in your mind. Over come all things to remain pure although it is hard. Take care. Good Luck to you all on your progression to enlightenment. Nice to have spoken to a world of people who are thinking!

P.S. *EGO is over indulgence*. Over indulge in anything and you will find EGO. *"Wahaguru*" is GOD. GURU is not god. GURU is made to sound different when spoken as god its like saying wow wat a teacher in amazment. Guru is teacher. Teachers are regarded highley but are not the ultimate source for learning. Before they could teach they either had to experience something or learn themselves. God teaches without experince all experience indescribable. The thing is if I carry on with this discription the wording will start to make non-sense, As the term Wahaguru as in the sense of god was meant as something indescribable. Amazing, wow. Like you say some people are calling these people saints or babas or whatever as they show some of these people a way to something maybe they are wrong in there teachings, *They are wrong if they do for self indulgence*. *NEITHER DO I FOLLOW SUCH PEOPLE! IT would be wrong to do so.* ALL YOU NEED IS GURBARNI AND WAHAGURU. AS EXPLAINED IN MY POST BEFORE THIS. I dont judge. I am not god. Only god can judge. I just follow what I learn from the gurbarni. Everyones journey is different *FACT*. Your life is different to mine *FACT*. So your journey will be different to mine *FACT*. Only the path can be the same to be *pure *and believe in *Wahaguru GOD*. _A WEIRD EXAMPLE BUT ITS ALL I COULD THINK OF :::::_
# YOU MIX ONE GLASS OF RIBENA WITH WATER. DO THE SAME WITH ANOTHER GLASS, SAME PREPORTIONS, AND IT WILL TASTE THE SAME AGAIN. SO GURU AND WAHAGURU WOULD HOLD THE SAME PURITY. BUT THEN THE GLASSES ARE DIFFERENT. IF YOU KEEP MIXING WATER IN ONE OF THE GLASSES YOU WILL STOP TASTING THE RIBENA AND ALL YOU WILL TASTE IS WATER. SAME SITUTION HERE. YOU CALL THE WRONG THING GOD AND IT WILL NO LONGER BE APART OF GOD AND WILL NO LONGER HAVE THE SAME MESSAGE. I hope no one thinks im forcing my opinion. I just write my thoughts down. If they make sense fine if not sound. I dont consider myself to be absoulte truth. I only go by what I think to be the truth. I called god my friend and god became my friend. I called my friend god but that was impossible. Like space we are apart of god, yet nowhere near god. Indescribable 
*ONLY GOD IS PERFECT, EVERYTHING ELSE IS IMPERFECT! I HOPE THE ONES THAT FOLLOW THESE BABAS ARE NEVER IN MY TOWN. ONLY GOD CAN TEACH ME MY WAY I LEARN FROM WAHAGURU AND GURU GRANTH SAHIB. LEAVE OUR PEOPLE ALONE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. DONT FORCE YOUR OPINIONS ON TO OTHERS. THATS THE MUSLIM WAY. ONE EYE!!!*

*NOW I WILL SAY PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR ANY INSOLENCE IF I'VE EVER OFFENDED! I DONT WISH TO OFFEND ANYONE ONLY BRING IN IDEAS. THINK WITH THE MIND NOT THE HEART. FROM A HUMBLE MAN. Question yourself before you question others! *


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## simpy (May 17, 2007)

*neech hun sab se neech, that's why Parma ji. All is God, so asking All for forgiveness. *

*thanks for your time and advise. My mind is humbly sitting in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Charan Kanwal, it is upto Guru Ji and only Guru Ji how to exploit it..................*



*Humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (May 18, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji De Bachan, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji De Panna # 711*


*hir ibsrq sdw KuAwrI ]*
*qw kau DoKw khw ibAwpY jw kau Et quhwrI ] *


*By Forgetting Hari(Waheguru), there tend to be destruction(downfall) forever. The one who has His(God’s) Support, cannot  be deceived. How can one be deceived with Such a support- Waheguru. So we must always engross ourselves in thinking and singing only His glories. His support/adhaar/tek can save us from all the odds. As ALL IS HE HIMSELF.*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## gursidak (May 20, 2007)

Jassa said:


> but do u think we should point out fingers at any onw without full knowledge .... ???? these day monas hate babas who tell them to keep hairs to be sikh but love those who say sikhi is far above then hairs .... and in same way singhs hate such babas ....
> 
> every one love those baba who say ur doing right no need to change .... who say u need to change to be sikh is presented in society in such a way that he is fake
> 
> bhulchuk maaf



Veer Jassa Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!!!!!!!



What you've observed here is the root and crust of modus operandi that makes almost all of the present day fake babas succeed.  

We all back here in India are familiar with broker's, be it at the Regional Transport Office or at any other institution.  If you happen to get in touch with them, their modus operandi is they'll highlight as to how difficult it is to go the distance yourself and how they'll make it easy for you (at some cost of course!!!).  Once they deduce that you're not going to be a easy prey, they get irritated and would try to give a parting shot at distracting you and then back off conserving their energy for an easier prey.

We forget that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji laid the foundation of Sikhism with the prime intention of saving us from this precise state as was widely prevalent at that time.  We are blessed to have Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib guiding us through all our doubts and ignorances so that we don't spiral down to where we started from.  

The TouchStone is and should at all times be Gurbani and if any person tries to put across anything that fails the test of Gurbani, we should spring to action, make our research as required, arrive at a firm decision as to the subject at hand, and Not Fall Prey to the "Easy Path" or a "Shortcut to Salvation" that any fiend is trying to sell to us.


If everything happens by design, why aren't we designed to realize that?????
If everything doesn't happen by design, why are we designed not to realize that!!!!!!! (I'm of course confused)

Guru Rakha!​


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## rosethorne (May 20, 2007)

Dear Gursikhs, It is true that every baba or saint is fake. They just want, people more people, money more money,power more power,words more words, no spiritualily less spirituality, pakhand hor jiada pakahnd. Like this Dera sacha sauda sant. In every baba or saint's life, one day they feel like they are GOD. They never know the truth that with no powers no money no people no words, without Pakhand THE GOD is achievable. The only thing these baba or saints are achieving, is the ego and Aadambar. If this So called sant of dera sacha sauda is a true sant then why did he done the wrong, why he is having the ego when he is so called sant, why he didn't apologized in front of sikhsangat, That is a saint's ego. Every baba or saint is having these vikaars. But the foolish people are behind them. No spirituality they have but less knowing people are too many in this world about spirituality. 

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਛੰਤ ਘਰੁ ੭ 
आसा महला ५ छंत घरु ७ 
Āsā mehlā 5 cẖẖanṯ gẖar 7 
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Chhant, Seventh House: 

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik&shy;oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ 
सलोकु ॥ 
Salok. 
Shalok: 

ਸੁਭ ਚਿੰਤਨ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਰਮਣ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗ ॥ 
सुभ चिंतन गोबिंद रमण निरमल साधू संग ॥ 
Subẖ cẖinṯan gobinḏ ramaṇ nirmal sāḏẖū sang. 
It is the most sublime contemplation, to speak of the Lord of the Universe in the pure Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਿਸਰਉ ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਭਗਵੰਤ ॥੧॥ 
नानक नामु न विसरउ इक घड़ी करि किरपा भगवंत ॥१॥ 
Nānak nām na visra&shy;o ik gẖaṛī kar kirpā bẖagvanṯ. ||1|| 
O Nanak, never the Naam, even for a moment; bless me with Your Grace, Lord God! ||1|| 

ਛੰਤ ॥ 
छंत ॥ 
Cẖẖanṯ. 
Chhant: 

ਭਿੰਨੀ ਰੈਨੜੀਐ ਚਾਮਕਨਿ ਤਾਰੇ ॥ 
भिंनी रैनड़ीऐ चामकनि तारे ॥ 
Bẖinnī rainṛī&shy;ai cẖāmkan ṯārė. 
The night is wet with dew, and the stars twinkle in the heavens. 

ਜਾਗਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ 
जागहि संत जना मेरे राम पिआरे ॥ 
Jāgeh sanṯ janā mėrė rām pi&shy;ārė. 
The Saints remain wakeful; they are the Beloveds of my Lord. 

ਰਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਦਾ ਜਾਗਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੋ ॥ 
राम पिआरे सदा जागहि नामु सिमरहि अनदिनो ॥ 
Rām pi&shy;ārė saḏā jāgeh nām simrahi anḏino. 
The Beloveds of the Lord remain ever wakeful, remembering the Naam, the Name of the Lord, day and night. 

ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਸਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਕੁ ਖਿਨੋ ॥ 
चरण कमल धिआनु हिरदै प्रभ बिसरु नाही इकु खिनो ॥ 
Cẖaraṇ kamal ḏẖi&shy;ān hirḏai parabẖ bisar nāhī ik kẖino. 
In their hearts, they meditate on the lotus feet of God; they do not forget Him, even for an instant. 

ਤਜਿ ਮਾਨੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਕਲਮਲਾ ਦੁਖ ਜਾਰੇ ॥ 
तजि मानु मोहु बिकारु मन का कलमला दुख जारे ॥ 
Ŧaj mān moh bikār man kā kalmalā ḏukẖ jārė. 
They renounce their pride, emotional attachment and mental corruption, and burn away the pain of wickedness. 

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਜਾਗਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਸ ਸੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ 
बिनवंति नानक सदा जागहि हरि दास संत पिआरे ॥१॥ 
Binvanṯ Nānak saḏā jāgeh har ḏās sanṯ pi&shy;ārė. ||1|| 
Prays Nanak, the Saints, the beloved servants of the Lord, remain ever wakeful. ||1|| 

ਮੇਰੀ ਸੇਜੜੀਐ ਆਡੰਬਰੁ ਬਣਿਆ ॥ 
मेरी सेजड़ीऐ आड्मबरु बणिआ ॥ 
Mėrī sėjṛī&shy;ai ādambar baṇi&shy;ā. 
My bed is adorned in splendor. 

ਮਨਿ ਅਨਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਵਤ ਸੁਣਿਆ ॥ 
मनि अनदु भइआ प्रभु आवत सुणिआ ॥ 
Man anaḏ bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā parabẖ āvaṯ suṇi&shy;ā. 
My mind is filled with bliss, since I heard that God is coming. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੁਖਹ ਗਾਮੀ ਚਾਵ ਮੰਗਲ ਰਸ ਭਰੇ ॥ 
प्रभ मिले सुआमी सुखह गामी चाव मंगल रस भरे ॥ 
Parabẖ milė su&shy;āmī sukẖah gāmī cẖāv mangal ras bẖarė. 
Meeting God, the Lord and Master, I have entered the realm of peace; I am filled with joy and delight. 

ਅੰਗ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਗੇ ਦੂਖ ਭਾਗੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਸਭਿ ਹਰੇ ॥ 
अंग संगि लागे दूख भागे प्राण मन तन सभि हरे ॥ 
Ang sang lāgė ḏūkẖ bẖāgė parāṇ man ṯan sabẖ harė. 
He is joined to me, in my very fiber; my sorrows have departed, and my body, mind and soul are all rejuvenated. 

ਮਨ ਇਛ ਪਾਈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਧਿਆਈ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਸੁਭ ਗਣਿਆ ॥ 
मन इछ पाई प्रभ धिआई संजोगु साहा सुभ गणिआ ॥ 
Man icẖẖ pā&shy;ī parabẖ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;ī sanjog sāhā subẖ gaṇi&shy;ā. 
I have obtained the fruits of my mind's desires, meditating on God; the day of my wedding is auspicious. 

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲੇ ਸ੍ਰੀਧਰ ਸਗਲ ਆਨੰਦ ਰਸੁ ਬਣਿਆ ॥੨॥ 
बिनवंति नानक मिले स्रीधर सगल आनंद रसु बणिआ ॥२॥ 
Binvanṯ Nānak milė sarīḏẖar sagal ānanḏ ras baṇi&shy;ā. ||2|| 
Prays Nanak, when I meet the Lord of excellence, I came to experience all pleasure and bliss. ||2|| 

ਮਿਲਿ ਸਖੀਆ ਪੁਛਹਿ ਕਹੁ ਕੰਤ ਨੀਸਾਣੀ ॥ 
मिलि सखीआ पुछहि कहु कंत नीसाणी ॥ 
Mil sakẖī&shy;ā pucẖẖeh kaho kanṯ nīsāṇī. 
I meet with my companions and say, "Show me the insignia of my Husband Lord". 

ਰਸਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਰੀ ਕਛੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ 
रसि प्रेम भरी कछु बोलि न जाणी ॥ 
Ras parėm bẖarī kacẖẖ bol na jāṇī. 
I am filled with the sublime essence of His Love, and I do not know how to say anything. 

ਗੁਣ ਗੂੜ ਗੁਪਤ ਅਪਾਰ ਕਰਤੇ ਨਿਗਮ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਹੇ ॥ 
गुण गूड़ गुपत अपार करते निगम अंतु न पावहे ॥ 
Guṇ gūṛ gupaṯ apār karṯė nigam anṯ na pāvhė. 
The Glorious Virtues of the Creator are profound, mysterious and infinite; even the Vedas cannot find His limits. 

ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਧਿਆਇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹੇ ॥ 
भगति भाइ धिआइ सुआमी सदा हरि गुण गावहे ॥ 
Bẖagaṯ bẖā&shy;ė ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;ė su&shy;āmī saḏā har guṇ gāvhė. 
With loving devotion, I meditate on the Lord Master, and sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord forever. 

ਸਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਸੁਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਰਨ ਆਪਣੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਣੀ ॥ 
सगल गुण सुगिआन पूरन आपणे प्रभ भाणी ॥ 
Sagal guṇ sugi&shy;ān pūran āpṇė parabẖ bẖāṇī. 
Filled with all virtues and spiritual wisdom, I have become pleasing to my God. 

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥੩॥ 
बिनवंति नानक रंगि राती प्रेम सहजि समाणी ॥३॥ 
Binvanṯ Nānak rang rāṯī parėm sahj samāṇī. ||3|| 
Prays Nanak, imbued with the color of the Lord's Love, I am imperceptibly absorbed into Him. ||3|| 

ਸੁਖ ਸੋਹਿਲੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਵਣ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ 
सुख सोहिलड़े हरि गावण लागे ॥ 
Sukẖ sohilṛė har gāvaṇ lāgė. 
When I began to sing the songs of rejoicing to the Lord, 

ਸਾਜਨ ਸਰਸਿਅੜੇ ਦੁਖ ਦੁਸਮਨ ਭਾਗੇ ॥ 
साजन सरसिअड़े दुख दुसमन भागे ॥ 
Sājan sarsi&shy;aṛė ḏukẖ ḏusman bẖāgė. 
my friends became glad, and my troubles and enemies departed. 

ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸਰਸੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਹਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀਆ ॥ 
सुख सहज सरसे हरि नामि रहसे प्रभि आपि किरपा धारीआ ॥ 
Sukẖ sahj sarsė har nām rahsė parabẖ āp kirpā ḏẖārī&shy;ā. 
My peace and happiness increased; I rejoiced in the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and God Himself blessed me with His mercy. 

ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਲਾਗੇ ਸਦਾ ਜਾਗੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਨਵਾਰੀਆ ॥ 
हरि चरण लागे सदा जागे मिले प्रभ बनवारीआ ॥ 
Har cẖaraṇ lāgė saḏā jāgė milė parabẖ banvārī&shy;ā. 
I have grasped the Lord's feet, and remaining ever wakeful, I have met the Lord, the Creator. 

ਸੁਭ ਦਿਵਸ ਆਏ ਸਹਜਿ ਪਾਏ ਸਗਲ ਨਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਗੇ ॥ 
सुभ दिवस आए सहजि पाए सगल निधि प्रभ पागे ॥ 
Subẖ ḏivas ā&shy;ė sahj pā&shy;ė sagal niḏẖ parabẖ pāgė. 
The appointed day came, and I attained peace and poise; all treasures are in the feet of God. 

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਤਾਗੇ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੦॥ 
बिनवंति नानक सरणि सुआमी सदा हरि जन तागे ॥४॥१॥१०॥ 
Binvanṯ Nānak saraṇ su&shy;āmī saḏā har jan ṯāgė. ||4||1||10|| 
Prays Nanak, the Lord's humble servants always seek the Sanctuary of the Lord and Master. ||4||1||10||

When a true saint or baba sitting in front of you then surely with the LOVE if he found, he will not able to say anything or describe to you about the LORD.
I am filled with the sublime essence of His Love, and I do not know how to say anything.

All baba or saints are fake they just making fools more fool. 
Guru Granth Saheb ji is the TRUTH if we want to explore, is the GURU if we want to WORSHIP.

Dear Gursikhs, It is true that any baba or saint today claiming whatever but fake surely. What is GOD and who can meet HIM is only known by these babas or saints, is commonly spreaded by these people. But they even themselves not even knowing it. They are making fools. Genuine fools are in of there terretory. Like this dera sacha sauda's so called saint gurmeet singh ram rahim, As per saints and babas, they are the people, who are close to GOD, but are they know the meaning of that. If they know they are closer to GOD then why this dera's saint done the wrong, Is GOD allowing them to do the wrong? NO this only happening in every babas or saint's life when they think they are GOD. If GOD's kirpa is on these people then why are they doing wrong, not even they know the humanity the dignity, or a religion but when they have power more power, money more money, people more people, AAdambar jiada aadambar, They are true Gamers of life when they are making a 3 million people fool then they eventually thinking of make even more of them. But Gursikhs are'nt fool. First I wanna ask this Dera's saint that why not he dare to leave singh from his name. If you are not a singh inside then what to do with your name. But they don't have sharam, namrata, but they do have ego, aadambar. GOD is not going to spare them.


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## GuruPyaara (May 20, 2007)

This Baba Ram Rahim calls himself a spiritual person and he has bodyguards, why? what a Saint has to be scared of?  
Death? 

Have spokesman to relay his message, why?


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## spnadmin (May 20, 2007)

Repected friends,

Yes Rosethorne ji, not only do these babas operate from pure ego, but from lust and greed as well.

Yes gursidak ji, they prey on economic and social misery and offer an easy path at a great cost.

Remembering the Italian poet Dante who in his poem The Inferno said: There is a special place in hell for those who choose to be neutral in the face of corruption. 

We do not have the same view of hell as Dante, but he makes his point. A person  cannot shrug his shoulders as if the dance performed by cults and false babs is not a grave concern.


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## Parma (May 21, 2007)

I'v added to the above note above. Chunga fir !!! TA TA!! So sweet!


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## simpy (May 23, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji De Bachan Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji De Panna # 819*




*qwqI vwau n lgeI pwrbRhm srxweI ]**cauigrd hmwrY rwm kwr duKu lgY n BweI ]*





me neech understand that:

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji is telling us that the hot wind(hardships and negativities) cannot even touch the person who is under the Protection of Guru/God. The act of remembering God always saves us and protects us from every negativity. By submitting ourselves to Guru/God we come under His Protection. Guru Ji is telling us that we get surrounded by the Lord's Circle of Protection from all four sides and pain cannot afflict us, once we are under His Protection. Let us come under His protection by always remembering Him and submitting ourselves totally unto Guru Ji/God………*


*Humbly asking for everybody’s forgiveness*


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## simpy (May 28, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*


*Considering this continuing fight against the cults and their hidden menace, the most devastating experience one can face is having a friend/a loved one/a family member involved in a cult. These people are brainwashed by these cult leaders and members in such a way that they quit listening to the Truth(after listening to the lies told by cultists repeatedly). It needs a lot of patience and many repeated efforts to make them hear what you are telling them. Have faith in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahibaan and keep trying. Don’t give up at any cost. The biggest weapon we got is the WORD- SHABAD GURU ‘Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji’*



*Only the trust in Guru Granth Sahib Ji can set them back on the right track.*


*humbly asking for everybody’s forgiveness*


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## tarlochan singh (May 29, 2007)

*DEAR SADH SANGAT JI *
*WAHE GURU JI KA KHALSA*
*WAHE GURU JI KI FATHE*

*I THINK THAT WE AS HUMANS ARE TO BLAME FOR THESE PARASITE TO EVOLVE DON'T YOU THINK,*
*IT IS US WHO HAVE BECOME SO INGROSSED WITH THIS EARTHLY MATTER THAT WE HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT WE WILL LEAVE ALL THIS BEHIND, WE WILL RECITE OUR 5 BANI'S DAY IN DAY OUT,LIKE A PARROT ME INCLUDED,**BUT  WE NEVER BOTHER TO UNDER STAND THE MASSAGE, *
*AND BECAUSE OF THIS WE ARE LED BY THESE MAHAPURSHES. *
*IT IS OUR STUPIDITY THAT THESE PEOPLE FLORISH.*
*LET SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI BE YOUR GUIDE, AND AKALPURKH BE YOUR SAVIOUR.*
* NOT A LIVING PERSON.*

GURFATHE
TARLOCHAN


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## simpy (May 29, 2007)

*Respected Tarlochan ji,*

*now as this has already happened(due to foolishness/ignorance/carelessness/whatever was the reason), we must make sure that we relay THE message out to as many as possible so that these FAKE MAHAPURSHAS cannot flourish any more at the cost of SIKHS............ *

*LIVE THE TRUTH TRUTHFULLY- leave this ratta routines-understand what you are reading and then live the truth  Do gurbani vichaar in your heads in stead of vichaar on movies and TV serials.... Do gurbani vichar with the True Sikh Sangat......... Practice Living Under His Will not our own manmat.......*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## tarlochan singh (May 30, 2007)

*DEAR SURINDER KAUR JI *

*THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY*
 *LIVE THE TRUTH TRUTHFULLY- leave this ratta routines-understand what you are reading and then live the truth  Do gurbani vichaar in your heads in stead of vichaar on movies and TV serials.... Do gurbani vichar with the True Sikh Sangat......... Practice Living Under His Will not our **own manmat.......*

*THIS RATTA WILL NOT GO AWAY BY ITS OWN, REMEMBER THE OSTRICH*
*WHO STUCK IT'S HEAD IN THE SAND AND HOPED THE DANGER WILL GO AWAY. DO VICHAR BY ALL MEANS BUT REMEMBER.,*
*RAJ BINAA NA DHARM CHALE HAI*
*DHARM BINAA SAB DHALE MHALE HAI * 
*AS FOR TV OR MOVIES WE SHOULD NOT UNDERMINE THIS MEDIUM,LOOK AT THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, YOU HAVE FILMS ABOUT EVERY BIBLICAL STORY.*

*WE CANNOT COMMIT MASS SUICIDE LIKE THE BUDDIST MONK WHO DROWEND THEMSELVES UPON HEARING THAT AHMED SHAH DURRANI IS COMMING.*

*WE HAVE TO ERRADICATE THIS ATTACK ON OUR GURUS.*
*THE SIKH LAWS ARE THERE WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE ARE INFORCED.*
*OTHER WISE LOOK WHAT THE BRHAMAN  HAS DONE TO ALL THE OTHER FAITHS* 

GUR FATHE
TARLOCHAN


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## simpy (May 31, 2007)

*Respected Tarlochan Ji,*

*thanks for the reply.*

*the major problem is that people who are suffering from this don't even realize what disease they are carrying around. raaj ta jadon hovega us vailey patta laggeyga, first let us start with what we have and then proceed for the rest..........*



> *THIS RATTA WILL NOT GO AWAY BY ITS OWN, REMEMBER THE OSTRICH*
> *WHO STUCK IT'S HEAD IN THE SAND AND HOPED THE DANGER WILL GO AWAY. DO VICHAR BY ALL MEANS BUT REMEMBER.,*
> *RAJ BINAA NA DHARM CHALE HAI*
> *DHARM BINAA SAB DHALE MHALE HAI *


 
*HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT 'WHO WILL BE ABLE TO WIN THE FIGHT(doesn't matter what kind of fight you are fighting) WITHOUT FAITH'...........*
*OUR GURU SAHIBAAN DID ALL THIS FOR US WITH UNCONDITIONAL LOVE AND UNSHAKABLE FAITH. ALL THESE FAKE BABA TYPES WERE WELL PRESENT IN EVERY ERA..............*
*AND GURBANI TELLS US VEERJI-*
*VIN GUN KEETAY BHAGAT NA HOI....................*

*Shakti is going to come from bhagati, and bhagti is going to come through faith.................*
*and this is going to happen with-*
*SUNEYAA MANNEYAA MAN KEETA BHAO............................*


*the core problem we are facing-"UNAWARENESS"*
*solution- MAKING PEOPLE AWARE THAT THEY ARE SUFFERING From THIS DISEASE...............only then they will go for the medicine-GURBANI/NAAM/SIMRAN......................* 



> *"WE CANNOT COMMIT MASS SUICIDE LIKE THE BUDDIST MONK WHO DROWEND THEMSELVES UPON HEARING THAT AHMED SHAH DURRANI IS COMMING."*


 
*a true sikh doesn't hide away, this cannot be his/her nature, immpossible...... BTW HOW MANY TRUE SIKHS WE HAVE????????????????*




> *WE HAVE TO ERRADICATE THIS ATTACK ON OUR GURUS.*
> *THE SIKH LAWS ARE THERE WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE ARE INFORCED.*
> *OTHER WISE LOOK WHAT THE BRHAMAN HAS DONE TO ALL THE OTHER FAITHS*


 
*First of all Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan CANNOT SUFFER FROM ANYTHING, they are beyond reach of these______*

*Sikh laws are so pure cannot be followed untill a person is pure enough to be capable of following them...................*

*Brahaman were present when Guru Sahib innitiated Sikhi- were they able to stop us then???????????*

*koi kisse de maareyaa nahi marda...*
*JIS DA SAHIB DAADAH HOE US NU MAAR NA SAAKE KOI.............*

*Have faith, UNSHAKABLE ONE..............*
*Love all, UNCONDITIONALLY................*

*AND LIVE THE TRUTH TRUTHFULLY if we really love and respect our Dhan Dhan GURU Ji*

*Baba Deep Singh Ji was able to fight with his head in his hand- not by physical power- it is faith and love with the creator and His creation that can produce Singhs like him not just JOSH................WE NEED TO WORK ON BOTH- JOSH AND HOSH AND MOST IMPORTANT-USE THEM WISELY UNDER GOD'S WILL   BE A TRUE SIKH BY ALL MEANS*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness *


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## spnadmin (May 31, 2007)

Sahil ji,

First of all -- something within me says that you too are the object of God's love. And with that I too love the Satgur who dwells within you. 

Would you then please pardon me for rudely entering the conversation that you are having with Surinder ji? But I must speak.

Even with my limited command of Gurmurki text, I too must say that you are adding things in your interpretation that aren't there in the text. 

Now I am really getting better at this translation thing, and from time to time compare what 2 or 3 different scholars offer as a translation of verses of the Guru. Yes, they have to add things into an English translation. They do this so that the English version of the Guru makes sense in English. We are talking about two languages that create meaning using very different grammatical rules. So they have to do this as the direct translation would be weird. 

The challenge for you is not to add things that aren't there. They aren't there and you don't need them to make the original meaning clear. And this thread wasn't about God's name anyway.

God is always cheerful.


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## tarlochan singh (May 31, 2007)

DEAR aad0002 JI 
I WASN'T QUOTING FROM SGGS JI
THANKS
TARLOCHAN


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## simpy (May 31, 2007)

tarlochan singh said:


> DEAR aad0002 JI
> I WASN'T QUOTING FROM SGGS JI
> THANKS
> TARLOCHAN


 
*Respected Tarlochan Ji,*

*i think aad0002 ji is talking to Sahil Ji, he has his posts in this thread as well, and he been adding things to translations as well he been misinterpreting it as well.......we all been talking to him as well under this thread before you started posting.*

*sorry for the confusion(if it is a confusion)*

*forgive me please*


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## tarlochan singh (Jun 1, 2007)

*DEAR SURINDER KAUR JI *

*PLEASE EXCUSE ME FOR INTERUPTING YOUR CHAT WITH SAHIL JI*
*I THOUGHT THIS SITE WAS  A GENRAL DISSCUSION SITE. PLEASE FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE, ONCE YOU HAVE FINSHED YOUR CHAT, MAYBE WE CAN HAVE A CHAT ABOUT FAKE BABA'S *
* PLEASE FORGIVE ME *
*GURFATHE*
*TARLOCHAN*


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## simpy (Jun 1, 2007)

tarlochan singh said:


> *DEAR SURINDER KAUR JI *
> 
> *PLEASE EXCUSE ME FOR INTERUPTING YOUR CHAT WITH SAHIL JI*
> *I THOUGHT THIS SITE WAS A GENRAL DISSCUSION SITE. PLEASE FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE, ONCE YOU HAVE FINSHED YOUR CHAT, MAYBE WE CAN HAVE A CHAT ABOUT FAKE BABA'S *
> ...


 
*Respected Veer Tarlochan Singh Ji,*

*please dont be annoyed, me neech humbly asking for your forgiveness for causing you feel this way. nobody is stopping anybody from posting at anytime, jinni k angrezi aundi hai os hisab nal meri post vich aisa kuj nahi hai jo eh kahe ki tusi ruk javo, please be considerate to all. *

*me neech simply thought that you may not have noticed about Veer Sahil Ji on this and/or other threads, that's all.....(and the post was also ADDRESSED to him  )........ i hope me neech is sure that you are not Sahil Ji and even if you are, you are appearing as Tarlochan Singh Ji now, so for us you are Veer Tarlochan Singh Ji.....*

*and extremely sorry for causing more confusion for you.....*

*please forgive me for any misbehaviour....and me neech has no capacity to have chats with others, simply putting my thoughts out(thinking loud), sorry for hurting your komal manua mere veer, please accept my apologies.........please please please with cherry on the top.......*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## roopk (Jun 1, 2007)

I think Surinder ji has done a lot of research on Fake Babas and will enlighten us if she has visited some or met some Fake Baba. It would be evry interesting ji.


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## simpy (Jun 1, 2007)

*Respected roopk ji, *

*me neech realized from another thread that in your RIGHTOUS OPINION - me neech is just waisting space and time  then how can me stupid be of any use to RIGHTOUS ALLKNOWER yourself * 

*me neech is humbly trying to aware others about the VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE of our times, that's all....*

*we read about babas everyday in every newspaper*
*we meet people who talk about babas ( in punjab or within punjabies-the first thing people ask one who does naamsimran-KEHRE BABA JI TO NAAM LYAA)*
*we meet people who have their relatives or loved ones got hurt by these fake babas*
*by any chance if i would have personaly met one of these fake mahapurshas- i must have written about it, they seem like simply running away from me , which fake baba will be able to stand me neech :crazy: and roopk ji, may be they simply try WAY WAY WAY TOO HARD TO STOP ME FROM SPEAKING, Writting OR even they uselessy keep PUSHING ME OUT OF PLACES-with no results in their favor, and i am never aware of this.........*


*me neech think that this is an important thing bothering our Sikh Community and others, so why not write about it :}{}{}: THIS IS ACTUALLY A DISEASE IN EVERY RELIGION.... IT IS LIKE POLLUTION.......*
*if you ever get a chance to speak to a christian priest/a temple pujari/a gurdwara sahib bhai ji///- will tell you the same type of stories...*

*i do encourage others to share their experience, if they have any  including yourself, even if you think i am a time and space destroyer* :hmm: *asking you to destroy some space for this purpose as me neech dont consider either Time or Space....*

*humbly asking for your forgiveness*


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## SikhUSA (Jun 12, 2007)

Hi Everyone!
I been reading about this organization *“Dera Sacha Sauda” *and found that this organization is based on Stealing things and thoughts from other religions and it is a totally FAKE organization. Here are some facts:


First of all this dera founders stole the name SACHA SAUDA from sikh history. Gurudwara Sacha Sauda is based in Pakistan and has 500 years old history. 


Their Fake Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, as you can see in his name, tried to steal followers of every religion and mimic the GOD of every religion. That is the only reason he has this “RAM RAHIM” in his name. Is this his real name? NO! That is not his real name, it is totally kind of FAKE name. None of the real sant in the history of man kind did this (example profet hajrat mohammad sahib, Lord Ram, Guru Nanak Dev ji). 


This freekin Dera has no history at all!!! They stole some things from Hindu religion, some things from Islam religion, some from Christian religion and some from sikh and made a FAKE religion. They have nothing from their own. Every thing in this fake dera is stolen from other religion (even the name itself).


All their BABA are involved pretty much in sexual harassment of their followers, murders of anyone who tried to expose the truth about their deras, corruption and greed. Real examples: Fake Gurmeet Ram Rahim – involved in 2 murders, numerous rape cases, everyone know he supported congress (shows that he is totally corrupt person) and this dera makes his followers to sell stuff like biscuits etc to make money out of their innocent followers (shows Dera’s greed behind all this drama). Story does not ends here, this dera charges every follower to pay money to live in dera, every one knows that dera’s income is millions of rupees every month, where does that money goes? Yes, that goes to there Fake Baba’s  long Mercedes cars and vans, that goes to this Fake baba’s big like castle house’s decoration which is in 15 acres. That goes to This Fake baba’s son and daughter’s marriages (mind you that over 2 crores were spend on baba’s son’s marriage and about double of that amount was spend on his daughter’s marriage) – Can any of this Fake dera’s followers tell me where this money came from? Did their baba earned this money? NO – this money comes from those innocent people that follow him. WHAT A GREAT  BUSINESS – IS NOT IT???


Things does not ends on this Current Baba, Grandson of Satnaam Singh (2nd Fake Baba of this organization) is also involved in Murder of Ranjit Singh. WHY? Because Ranjit Singh was going to expose the truth of what’s happening inside this dera ( rape of innocent girls, corruption, greediness of this baba and land nabbing). And thats what Ranjit Singh got.


As I mention earlier their fakeness, here is one more example – there main slogan “Dhan Dhan Satguru Tera hi Aasra” – The word Satguru is also stolen from Sikh religion. 


Example of Greediness: In their Satsang only rich people are allowed to sit closer to the baba and meet him. The poor followers does not even get to see him clearly. WHY  IS  THAT??? 


Example of Greediness: Their baba builds houses for people charges them money to live in their. I know its nothing wrong to charge rent, then why would you call such a business man a BABA. He is just a business man that is making money out of innocent people.


Example of Fakeness: You can easily find an example of their Fake baba saying that “Ham to Saanti Aur Pyaar Maangtay Hain” (all we ask for is love and peace). But the truth is – Inside their dera “Salabatpura” and “Sirsa” they have stocked a big warehouse of arms and weapons. Example – his followers opened fires on sikh followers on 17th may from inside of the dera. Moreover every one knows that on 14-15 May 2007 all his Dera followers were provided with same size of rods by the dera and which were stocked by the dera! And it is proven by the police. Another big example – The Baba knew this killings in Punjab would stop if he could peacefully asked SORRY to sikh religion. He did not do it – WHY?? Because this Fake baba is Ahankaari (proud), Aaatankwaadi (terriorist) and Killer!


Now let me get back to the allegations that this Fake Baba has – He illegally nabbed the land of innocent farmers in sirsa. Proof – Dera had only 15 acres land in 1990, and dera’s record shows that only about 50 acres were donated to dera by dera’s followers. And currently this Fake organization has about 700 Acres – Where the hell rest 650 acers came from? Yes – it came from illegally nabbing the land from poor people by the power of GUN and POWER! And now all of you should know why this Dera baba supported Congress in assembly elections – CLEARLY! To increase his power! That’s right – The Gurmeet Raam Rahim supported congress so that he can have his full control in Punjab! Fortunately that didn’t happen.


Another fact: If he is a real Sant, then why does he need all these Gunmen for? Mind you that this Fake baba spend about 4 – 5 lakh every month on his royalty look (he likes gunmen around him, he likes mercides cars, he likes wembley revolvers and pistols, his kids wear dresses that rich people cant even think about). Again, WHERE  DOES ALL THIS MONEY COME FROM????


Now let me get back to the 13th May 2007 incident. This fake guy Gurmeet Raam Raheem stole another thing from Sikh religion ( as usual though ). He tried to steal the holy ceremony of “Amrit paan” from sikh religion. He dressed like Guru Gobind Singh ji (10th Guru of Sikhs), He took same kind of utensil (Bata), he issued 47 orders to his followers (just like Guru Gobind Singh ji did 52), and then he ordered his followers to wear kind of locket (just like Guru Gobind Singh ji ordered Sikhs to wear Karpaan). – So Now, All of you should be able to figure out that how FAKE this religion is. It has totally no history! Everything in this religion is STOLEN from other religions. 


NOW – that it is proved by CBI of India that the things happening inside this dera (rape, murder, curreption, land nabbing) are happening by the order of this Fake BABA. Dera owners are blaming media, leading government, CBI and police. But, here is the fact, the murder of Ranjit Singh, and press reporter chatarpati was REAL. They were dead for reals! Girls were/are being raped by this FAKE GURMEET RAAM RAHEEM in real, 650 Acers of land was nabbed from poor farmers in reals! This Baba has about 10 cases of land nabbing, 2 murder cases, about 5 Rape cases – AND STILL HE IS A BABA – I feel shame on the people who follow this FAKE person. 


All I want to say is, a Hindu should be pure Hindu, hindu religion has a big and rich culture and history. Same way Muslim and Sikh do. We should not go and bow our head in front of these FAKE babas and FAKE organizations. If you are a true Hindu or Muslim, you will get everything by living in your religion. There is absolutely no reason to join such a corrupt persons that are real world DON. 


Every Fact in this article is based on proofs and truth. Anyone can search about this Fake person in any search engine and can find all the facts with the dates of registered cases against the Dera owner.


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2007)

Harbans Lal recently cited Bhai Gurdas as a guide for understanding how devotion to Shabd Guru connects us to a realization of Divine truth. As Shabd Guru is Divine Truth. 

From Bhai Gurdas

You should practice sustained mentation (dhyan) on the Word of the Guru, and consider it alone to be the image or statue of the Guru who is always with you. The seekers who are Guru-oriented acquire the knowledge of the Guru’s Word. This way they do not leave any space or distance between them and the Guru.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 3, Pauri 10._


The true Guru is Truth Personified. The Guru oriented people know this Truth to be the basis of their dhyan (sustained mentation) in meditation.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 6, Pauri 19._

The Word of the Guru is the image for worship; the Guru-oriented Sikhs listen to it and make use of the holy congregation as the metaphoric seat of the formless Creator.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 2, Pauri 11._

You must be fully cognate of the Word of the Guru and must not permit the mind to go into delusions. Absorption of your consciousness into the Word will make you vigilant and you will get across the ocean of life this way.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 3, Pauri 19_.

The one who learns a relationship between the Word and the consciousness is divine. Bring this vision in your dhyan or sustained mentation that will constitute an idol or form of the Guru for your worship.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 13, Pauri 2._

Word of the Guru is the idol of Guru and the time of the holy congregation in the ambrosial hour.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 24, Pauri 11._

The Word of the guru is the physical body of the Guru. It becomes perceptible in the holy congregation.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 24, Pauri 25._

When as Guru oriented seeker contemplates on the soothing Word of Guru, the true Guru becomes manifest in the consciousness.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 20, Pauri 29._

The seekers accept equally the Guru’s Word and the holy congregation as the Guru’s body. They adore the ONE with quiescence and after destroying the duality they rejoice the Will of God.
_Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 32, Pauri 2._

*Fake Babas cannot deliver.*


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## Harjap Khalsa (Jul 2, 2007)

Deravaad is a serious threat to Sikhism. All this propaganda against Gurbani, misinterpretation of Gurbani is campaigned by fake babas, dera followers and recruiters.

The most common things said by these activists are that there is no need to study or understand Gurbani and there is no need to do Naam jap. Presented by Gurbani during a conversation their reaction is usual: you dont understand it, it is unrelated, it is not needed. They are trying to dilute Sikhism. 

Sangat Ji, 

The need of the time is- Learn what Guru Ji says and do Vichaar on Gurbani as often as possible. Spread the Word as much as possible. We have a long way to go as lots of people are already under the influence of these fake babas and their deras; many of them aren't even aware of this bitter truth. Learn Gurmukhi yourself and teach to as many as you can. Too much to do.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## kaur-1 (Jul 3, 2007)

Might as well throw this in too:


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2007)

Kaur - 1 ji

Where did you find these? I am ROFLMAO! Truly signs of the times.


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## kaur-1 (Jul 3, 2007)

he he

There are lots more in Sikhtoons - Sikh Cartoons with a Message

Article:
*Cartoonist draws on Sikh frustrations, aspirations*


The Seattle Times: Local News: Cartoonist draws on Sikh frustrations, aspirations


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## simpy (Jul 25, 2007)

kaur-1 said:


> Might as well throw this in too:


 
*he he*


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*A Fact:*

*A fake baba ji maharaaj always uses deception to recruit and operate in the society. *

*Reason:*

*If you know beforehand the truth about him/her and his/her beliefs, will you go after him/her  . *


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

can someone explain what guruji mean by "sadhu ke sang"


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2008)

amarsanghera ji

Do you mean saadh(u) ke sang, saadh ke sang or possibly  saadh kai sang(h)? These 3 are all various translits of the same thing. {sadhu = saadh(u) and ke = kai}

Found this way, 
Saadh kai sang pargatai sugiaan.  Saadh kai sang bujhai prabh neraa: In Saadh Sangat,  spiritual wisdom is revealed. In the Company of the Holy, God is understood to  be near at hand. Bani of Guru Arjan Dev ji, Ang 271).


You would also see it this way, saadhh janaa kai sang bhavajal thaarian ||
saakath nindhak dhusatt khin maahi bidhaarian 
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, we are carried across the terrifying world-ocean. In an instant, You have destroyed the faithless cynics and slanderous enemies. 

_which is the_ _Bani of Guru Arjan Dev ji on Ang  517
_ 
Gurbani search did not turn up sadhu ke sang


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

yes

aad ji

this what i was looking for


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2008)

i found another example and added it below.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

how does one identify a saadh or sadhu which Guru ji wants us to meet ( assuming Guruji meant it)


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> how does one identify a saadh or sadhu which Guru ji wants us to meet ( assuming Guruji meant it)



saadh or saadh(u) means "holy" and sadhu means holy person, or enlightened person. It was the pronunciation shift that make it hard to find your term on a search engine. In a minute I will edit and put in the Gurbani words for each one. Transliteration is a pain because the Gurmukhi can have more than one English equivalent. English language is the problem, not the Gurmukhi.

saadh or saadh(u) ਸਾਧ versus sadhu or sadhoo ਸਾਧੂ - same but not the same if you see the two little lines under ਧ versus ਧੂ . 

Anyway, to answer your question -- I don't know and would like to hear an answer myself.

Cheers


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

YouTube - Part 1of 3 â–º Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan â—„ Tum ik Gorakh Dhanda Ho


YouTube - Part 3of 3 â–º Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan â—„ Tum ik Gorakh Dhanda Ho


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Sadhus are rare to find in buildings called Gurdwaaraas, temples, Churches or other worldly places for ritual worship. To reserve their seats in Gurdwaaraas, Sick Baabaas are trying to convince people that true Sadhus are not existing. Truth is that true Sadhus have no interest to visit a business center based on a worldly religion. 

Please be sure to convince your Baabaa sitting in Gurdwaaraa when someone goes to meet a Sadhu. Tell him that you will come back to Mathaa Tek your dollar, in case he has found your plans.

I have found the word 'Sadhu' occurring many hundred times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Please ponder. Gurdev is singing.

sbid n BIjY swkqw durmiq Awvnu jwnu ]
sbid n BIjY swkqw durmiq Awvnu jwnu ]
"Sabad na bheejay saaktaa durmati aavanu jaanu."
Sabad, does not resolve Saakataa. Evil-minded comes and goes.

swDU sqguru jy imlY qw pweIAY guxI inDwnu ]
swDU sqgu{ jy imlY qw pweéEy guxI inDwnu ]
"Sadhoo Satguru je milay taa paaeeai gunee nidhaan." SGGS Ang 21-8
Sadhu Satguru if meets then one receives Gunee Nidhaan.

'Sadhu ke sang' means the company of Saadhoo. The true Gurus say often to meet the Sadhu but they never say to meet a Raagee, Kathaakaar, Granthee or reader of a book to receive Naam Simran.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

point accepted

so you want to say that the ragees or katha vachaks are not "sadhus" as defined in SGGS

good point.

but how does one identify "sadhu"

what is the motive for the one ata  higher level to meet others?

why would the fountain go to thirsty?

if it is fountain...that is...

getting my point?


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*Dhan Dhan Gurbani is Nirankaar/Saadh/Sant/Guru ITSELF.... *


*Saadh/Guru ka bachan is no less in any manner than Saadh/Guru Himself*


*Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani............*
*Bani Nirankaar Hai.............*

*Pothee Parmesvar kaa thaanv.....*


*Waheguru has given us the power to read, listen, sing,  and understand and then follow the truth in our lives.............*

*gaavyaa sunyaa tina ka thaanay pavay jin satguru ki agyaa sach sach kar maanee..............*


*ENJOY THE ANAND*


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2008)

Balbir ji



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

One is engaged with different techniques and wanders around the earth but does not come to solace.

Aink brK kIey jp qwpw ]
Aink brK kIE jp qwpw ]
"anik barakh keee jap taapaa."

gvnu kIAw DrqI Brmwqw ]
gvnu kIAw DrqI Brmwqw ]
"gavan keeaa dhartee bharmaataa."

ieku iKnu ihrdY sWiq n AwvY jogI bhuiV bhuiV auiT DwvY jIau ]3]
eku iKnu ihrdY sWiq n AwvY jogI bhuiV bhuiV aiT DwvY jIa ]3]
"iku khinu hirdai saaNti na aavai jogee bahurhi bahurhi uthi Dhaavai jee-o." ||3||

Gurdev is singing. Doing mercy HE introduced me with the Sadhu. Body and mind received coolness and calmness. The immortal God has come to dwell within. Hari's Bliss Naanak is singing.

kir ikrpw moih swDu imlwieAw ]
kir ikrpw moih swDu imlweAw ]
"kari kirpaa mohi saadhu milaaiaa."

mnu qnu sIqlu DIrju pwieAw ]
mnu qnu sIqlu DIrju pweAw ]
"manu tanu seetalu dheeraj paaiaa."

pRBu AibnwsI bisAw Gt BIqir hir mMglu nwnku gwvY jIau ]
pRBu AibnwsI bisAw Gt BIqir hir mNglu nwnku gwvY jIa ]
"parabhu abhinaasee basiaa ghat bheetari hari mangalu naanaku gaavai jeeo."  SGGS Ang 98-6

This is the company of Sadhu and its result.

**************

Quote "but how does one identify 'sadhu'."
Through Sadhu one receives true Gur of Naam and its results as described by Gurdev.
Please do not waste more time with those in their company nothing works. They have only empty promises.

Quote "what is the motive for the one ata higher level to meet others?"
God sends His Grace through them.

Quote "why would the fountain go to thirsty?"
The Fountain remains there where HE is. God sends water through Sadhu to quench one's thirst.

**************

Fake Baabaas and their Beebees may stop one to meet the Sadhu saying ' *Dhan Dhan Gurbani is Nirankaar/Saadh/Sant/Guru ITSELF....*'. Do not go anywhere else. Remain thirsty. God will drop Amrit in your mouth one day. They promise.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "Sadhoo Satguru means Guruji."
I hope He is not paper Guruji, according to some.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*'Saadh ka sang' 'Satsang' 'Satguru ke Charan' many different ways Guru Sahibaan has mentioned that we must be in the company of Saints.*

*Now nobody can deny this that Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a 'SAINT'.. *

*Guru is not the physical body, Guru is the Soul, that is merged with Akaal Purkh. *

*same is a Saint- a soul (NOT THE PHYSICAL BODY OF FLESH AND BLOOD) that is merged with God.*

*as many people started to cheat people by acting like Sikh Saints(HISTORY TELLS ABOUT IT DURING GURU TEGH BAHADAR JI'S TIME), Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji tackled this problem for the humanity ONCE AND FOR ALL.*

*pepole still try to cheat others but majority does understand and follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.*

*regarding Reading and Singing Gurbani, Balbir Veer can try his best, I DONT THINK ANY COURT OF THIS WORLD CAN STOP a bhaee/raagee/you/me/or anybody from reading, listening and singing Gurbani in Gurdwara Building or in their own home or in their minds.*

*If one goes to gurdwara to see a bhaee, then it is his/her bhudhi. If one goes to Gurdwara to listen Gurbani, contemplate on Gurbani, then too it is his/her budhi. And Gurbani does not get any less effective if a non Gurmukh reads it. Gurbani is Nirankaar Pure Always afresh. Sahib mera neet nawaa sadaa sadaa dataar. ..............*

*Amrit is pouring right within as well as everywhere, some people waste it by simply getting indulged in wasteful tasks, some recieve it ceaselessly.............................  *

*Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah de Paavan Bachan:*


swkq kI Awvrdw jwie ibRQwrI ] (681-7, DnwsrI, mÚ 5)
saakat kee aavradaa jaa-ay barithaaree.
The faithless cynic passes his life uselessly.
jYsy kwgd ky Bwr mUsw tUik gvwvq kwim nhI gwvwrI ] rhwau ] (681-7, DnwsrI, mÚ 5)
jaisay kaagad kay bhaar moosaa took gavaavat kaam nahee gaavaaree. rahaa-o.
He is like the mouse, gnawing away at the pile of paper, making it useless to the poor wretch. ||Pause||
kir ikrpw pwrbRhm suAwmI ieh bMDn CutkwrI ] (681-8, DnwsrI, mÚ 5)
kar kirpaa paarbarahm su-aamee ih banDhan chhutkaaree.
Have mercy on me, O Supreme Lord God, and release me from these bonds.
bUfq AMD nwnk pRB kwFq swD jnw sMgwrI ]2]11]42] (681-8, DnwsrI, mÚ 5)
boodat anDh naanak parabh kaadhat saaDh janaa sangaaree. ||2||11||42||
The blind are sinking, O Nanak; God saves them, uniting them with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||2||11||42||
 

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib Sache Paatshah da hukam hai:*


gurU ijnw kw AMDulw cyly nwhI Twau ] (58-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
guroo jinaa kaa anDhulaa chaylay naahee thaa-o.
Those chaylaas, those devotees, whose spiritual teacher is blind, shall not find their place of rest.


*doesn't take very long to know about a fake baba.  Chelas advertise them really well............*


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah Da Hukam Hai:*


gurU ijnw kw AMDulw isK BI AMDy krm kryin ] (951-7, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
guroo jinaa kaa anDhulaa sikh bhee anDhay karam karayn.
The disciples whose teacher is blind, act blindly as well.
Eie BwxY clin AwpxY inq JUTo JUTu bolyin ] (951-8, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
o-ay bhaanai chalan aapnai nit jhootho jhooth bolayn.
They walk according to their own wills, and continually speak falsehood and lies.
kUVu kusqu kmwvdy pr inMdw sdw kryin ] (951-8, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
koorh kusat kamaavday par nindaa sadaa karayn.
They practice falsehood and deception, and endlessly slander others.
Eie Awip fuby pr inMdkw sgly kul fobyin ] (951-9, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
o-ay aap dubay par nindkaa saglay kul dobayn.
Slandering others, they drown themselves, and drown all their generations as well.
nwnk ijqu Eie lwey iqqu lgy auie bpuVy ikAw kryin ]2] (951-9, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
naanak jit o-ay laa-ay tit lagay u-ay bapurhay ki-aa karayn. ||2||
O Nanak, whatever the Lord links them to, to that they are linked; what can the poor creatures do? ||2||


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

swrg mhlw 5 ] (1226-3)
saarag mehlaa 5.
Saarang, Fifth Mehl:
poQI prmysr kw Qwnu ] (1226-3, swrMg, mÚ 5)
pothee parmaysar kaa thaan.
This Holy Book is the home of the Transcendent Lord God.
swDsMig gwvih gux goibMd pUrn bRhm igAwnu ]1] rhwau ] (1226-3, swrMg, mÚ 5)
saaDhsang gaavahi gun gobind pooran barahm gi-aan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Whoever sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, has the perfect knowledge of God. ||1||Pause||
swiDk isD sgl muin locih ibrly lwgY iDAwnu ] (1226-4, swrMg, mÚ 5)
saaDhik siDh sagal mun locheh birlay laagai Dhi-aan.
The Siddhas and seekers and all the silent sages long for the Lord, but those who meditate on Him are rare.
ijsih ik®pwlu hoie myrw suAwmI pUrn qw ko kwmu ]1] (1226-4, swrMg, mÚ 5)
jisahi kirpaal ho-ay mayraa su-aamee pooran taa ko kaam. ||1||
That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is merciful - all his tasks are perfectly accomplished. ||1||
jw kY irdY vsY BY BMjnu iqsu jwnY sgl jhwnu ] (1226-5, swrMg, mÚ 5)
jaa kai ridai vasai bhai bhanjan tis jaanai sagal jahaan.
One whose heart is filled with the Lord, the Destroyer of fear, knows the whole world.
iKnu plu ibsru nhI myry krqy iehu nwnku mWgY dwnu ]2]90]113] (1226-5, swrMg, mÚ 5)
khin pal bisar nahee mayray kartay ih naanak maaNgai daan. ||2||90||113||
May I never forget You, even for an instant, O my Creator Lord; Nanak begs for this blessing. ||2||90||113||


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*just couldn't stop laughing at the argument of bhaee/raagee reading Gurbani:*

*Isn't Gurbani needed to be read by ALL. Are the bhaees  not included in the humanity????? *
*Why any person in this world should not be allowed to read Gurbani, why????????*
*Do one need to do something special to deserve to read Gurbani??????????*

*And most funny thing is that this argument is coming from the person who clamis himself to be THE BEST ON THIS EARTH.*

*it sounds like History CLASS: *
*in such and such era in some country some sections of people were not allowed to study/learn.................... etc *

*i think i must stop now.........................  *


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*dear aad ji,*

*i was reading Bhai Gurdas ji and i just happened to go over the following: this copy thing made me laugh even more. *

*"Worthy are the hands of the Sikh who in the holy congregation do the  Guru's work.
Who draw water, fan the sangat, grind the flour, wash the  feet of Guru and drink the water therefrom;
Who copy the Guru's hymns  and play the cymbals, the mirdang, a small drum, and the rebeck in the  company of holy.
Worthy are the hands who bow, help in prostrating and  embrace a brother Sikh;
Who eam livelihood honestly and munificently  confer favour on others.
Worthy of praise are the hands of such a Sikh  who by coming in touch with Guru becomes indifferent to worldly  materials and lays not his eyes on another's wife or property;
Who loves  another Sikh and embraces the love, devotion, and fear of God;
He effaces his ego and does not assert himself."*

*WE ARE LEARNING EVERYTHING FROM BHAI JI................................  *


*i must log off now........*


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## spnadmin (Jan 6, 2008)

Everything to learn and so little time.He is one of those that I wish I had met.* Wonderful selection that you posted for us Surinder bhenji. *


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## Randip Singh (Jan 6, 2008)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> Cults- Dangerous approach to destabilize a community. Every faith/religion is facing and has faced this disease for centuries.
> 
> 
> Led by certainly not bad men/women, but EVIL BEINGS.
> ...



I think Cults are more subtle than that. I would argue GNSSJ, Namdhari's, AKJ etc are ALL cults wike elements of fakeness.


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Dear Randip Ji,  *

*the effort here is to alert and warn people, so that they can think of their sangat....................*

*there are millions of fake babas and cults, some with name, fame and following; some without.*

*anybody who is familiar with any such thing must share their views, like somebody has done before on SachaSoda........................*

*ALERT YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS FROM THESE TYPES OF PRACTICES..........*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*And Randip Veer, please add more features of cults whatever is missing, this is an open thread...................*

*thanks*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Dear Moderator Jee!

Please open this thread for all the visitors of this Website. Only registered members can read it up to now.
Thanks.

Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 6, 2008)

Balbir jee

This thread is in Hard Talk. Hard Talk is a part of the forum that is closed to the public on purpose. Some topics are designated for members only. The only way to change this would be for the person who started the thread to ask Admin to change the location - move the  thread. So Surinder ji would be the one to make that decision. One cannot make the decision for her.

aad0002


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Dear aad ji, i suggest leave it the way it is. *

*thanks*


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj De Paavan Bachan on panna # 1012/1013(gives a lot of clarification on fake preachers etc.)*


mwrU mhlw 1 ] (1012-14)
maaroo mehlaa 1.
Maaroo, Fifth Mehl: 
mnmuKu lhir Gru qij ivgUcY Avrw ky Gr hyrY ] (1012-15, mwrU, mÚ 1)
manmukh lahar ghar taj vigoochai avraa kay ghar hayrai.
The self-willed manmukh, in a fit of passion, abandons his home, and is ruined; then, he spies on the homes of others.
igRh Drmu gvwey siqguru n BytY durmiq GUmn GyrY ] (1012-15, mwrU, mÚ 1)
garih Dharam gavaa-ay satgur na bhaytai durmat ghooman ghayrai.
He neglects his household duties, and does not meet with the True Guru; he is caught in the whirlpool of evil-mindedness.
idsMqru BvY pwT piV Qwkw iqRsnw hoie vDyrY ] (1012-16, mwrU, mÚ 1)
disantar bhavai paath parh thaakaa tarisnaa ho-ay vaDhayrai.
Wandering in foreign lands and reading scriptures, he grows weary, and his thirsty desires only increase.
kwcI ipMfI sbdu n cInY audru BrY jYsy ForY ]1] (1012-16, mwrU, mÚ 1)
kaachee pindee sabad na cheenai udar bharai jaisay dhorai. ||1||
His perishable body does not remember the Word of the Shabad; like a beast, he fills his belly. ||1||
bwbw AYsI rvq rvY sMinAwsI ] (1012-17, mwrU, mÚ 1)
baabaa aisee ravat ravai sani-aasee.
O Baba, this is the way of life of the Sannyaasi, the renunciate.
gur kY sbid eyk ilv lwgI qyrY nwim rqy iqRpqwsI ]1] rhwau ] (1012-17, mwrU, mÚ 1)
gur kai sabad ayk liv laagee tayrai naam ratay tariptaasee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, he is to enshrine love for the One Lord. Imbued with Your Name, Lord, he remains satisfied and fulfilled. ||1||Pause||
GolI gyrU rMgu cVwieAw vsqR ByK ByKwrI ] (1012-18, mwrU, mÚ 1)
gholee gayroo rang charhaa-i-aa vastar bhaykh bhaykhaaree.
He dyes his robes with saffron dye, and wearing these robes, he goes out begging.
kwpV Pwir bnweI iKMQw JolI mwieAwDwrI ] (1012-18, mwrU, mÚ 1)
kaaparh faar banaa-ee khinthaa jholee maa-i-aaDhaaree.
Tearing his robes, he makes a patched coat, and puts the money in his wallet.
Gir Gir mwgY jgu prboDY min AMDY piq hwrI ] (1012-19, mwrU, mÚ 1)
ghar ghar maagai jag parboDhai man anDhai pat haaree.
From house to house he goes begging, and tries to teach the world; but his mind is blind, and so he loses his honor.
Brim Bulwxw sbdu n cInY jUAY bwjI hwrI ]2] (1012-19, mwrU, mÚ 1)
bharam bhulaanaa sabad na cheenai joo-ai baajee haaree. ||2||
He is deluded by doubt, and does not remember the Word of the Shabad. He loses his life in the gamble. ||2||


AMqir Agin n gur ibnu bUJY bwhir pUAr qwpY ] (1013-1, mwrU, mÚ 1)
antar agan na gur bin boojhai baahar poo-ar taapai.
Without the Guru, the fire within is not quenched; and outside, the fire still burns.
gur syvw ibnu Bgiq n hovI ikau kir cInis AwpY ] (1013-1, mwrU, mÚ 1)
gur sayvaa bin bhagat na hovee ki-o kar cheenas aapai.
Without serving the Guru, there is no devotional worship. How can anyone, by himself, know the Lord?
inMdw kir kir nrk invwsI AMqir Awqm jwpY ] (1013-2, mwrU, mÚ 1)
nindaa kar kar narak nivaasee antar aatam jaapai.
Slandering others, one lives in hell; within him is hazy darkness.
ATsiT qIrQ Brim ivgUcih ikau mlu DopY pwpY ]3] (1013-2, mwrU, mÚ 1)
athsath tirath bharam vigoocheh ki-o mal Dhopai paapai. ||3||
Wandering to the eixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, he is ruined. How can the filth of sin be washed away? ||3||
CwxI Kwku ibBUq cVweI mwieAw kw mgu johY ] (1013-3, mwrU, mÚ 1)
chhaanee khaak bibhoot charhaa-ee maa-i-aa kaa mag johai.
He sifts through the dust, and applies ashes to his body, but he is searching for the path of Maya's wealth.
AMqir bwhir eyku n jwxY swcu khy qy CohY ] (1013-3, mwrU, mÚ 1)
antar baahar ayk na jaanai saach kahay tay chhohai.
Inwardly and outwardly, he does not know the One Lord; if someone tells him the Truth, he grows angry.
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq EhY ] (1013-4, mwrU, mÚ 1)
paath parhai mukh jhootho bolai niguray kee mat ohai.
He reads the scriptures, but tells lies; such is the intellect of one who has no guru.
nwmu n jpeI ikau suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ikau sohY ]4] (1013-4, mwrU, mÚ 1)
naam na jap-ee ki-o sukh paavai bin naavai ki-o sohai. ||4||
Without chanting the Naam, how can he find peace? Without the Name, how can he look good? ||4||
mUMfu mufwie jtw isK bwDI moin rhY AiBmwnw ] (1013-5, mwrU, mÚ 1)
moond mudaa-ay jataa sikh baaDhee mon rahai abhimaanaa.
Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it in braids, while some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride.
mnUAw folY dh ids DwvY ibnu rq Awqm igAwnw ] (1013-5, mwrU, mÚ 1)
manoo-aa dolai dah dis Dhaavai bin rat aatam gi-aanaa.
Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul.
AMimRqu Coif mhw ibKu pIvY mwieAw kw dyvwnw ] (1013-6, mwrU, mÚ 1)
amrit chhod mahaa bikh peevai maa-i-aa kaa dayvaanaa.
They abandon the Ambrosial Nectar, and drink the deadly poison, driven mad by Maya.
ikrqu n imteI hukmu n bUJY psUAw mwih smwnw ]5] (1013-7, mwrU, mÚ 1)
kirat na mit-ee hukam na boojhai pasoo-aa maahi samaanaa. ||5||
Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord's Command, they become beasts. ||5||
hwQ kmMflu kwpVIAw min iqRsnw aupjI BwrI ] (1013-7, mwrU, mÚ 1)
haath kamandal kaaprhee-aa man tarisnaa upjee bhaaree.
With bowl in hand, wearing his patched coat, great desires well up in his mind.
iesqRI qij kir kwim ivAwipAw icqu lwieAw pr nwrI ] (1013-8, mwrU, mÚ 1)
istaree taj kar kaam vi-aapi-aa chit laa-i-aa par naaree.
Abandoning his own wife, he is engrossed in sexual desire; his thoughts are on the wives of others.
isK kry kir sbdu n cInY lµptu hY bwjwrI ] (1013-8, mwrU, mÚ 1)
sikh karay kar sabad na cheenai lampat hai baajaaree.
He teaches and preaches, but does not contemplate the Shabad; he is bought and sold on the street.
AMqir ibKu bwhir inBrwqI qw jmu kry KuAwrI ]6] (1013-9, mwrU, mÚ 1)
antar bikh baahar nibhraatee taa jam karay khu-aaree. ||6||
With poison within, he pretends to be free of doubt; he is ruined and humiliated by the Messenger of Death. ||6||
so sMinAwsI jo siqgur syvY ivchu Awpu gvwey ] (1013-9, mwrU, mÚ 1)
so sani-aasee jo satgur sayvai vichahu aap gavaa-ay.
He alone is a Sannyaasi, who serves the True Guru, and removes his self-conceit from within.
Cwdn Bojn kI Aws n kreI AicMqu imlY so pwey ] (1013-10, mwrU, mÚ 1)
chhaadan bhojan kee aas na kar-ee achint milai so paa-ay.
He does not ask for clothes or food; without asking, he accepts whatever he receives.
bkY n bolY iKmw Dnu sMgRhY qwmsu nwim jlwey ] (1013-10, mwrU, mÚ 1)
bakai na bolai khimaa Dhan sangrahai taamas naam jalaa-ay.
He does not speak empty words; he gathers in the wealth of tolerance, and burns away his anger with the Naam.
Dnu igrhI sMinAwsI jogI ij hir crxI icqu lwey ]7] (1013-11, mwrU, mÚ 1)
Dhan girhee sani-aasee jogee je har charnee chit laa-ay. ||7||
Blessed is such a householder, Sannyaasi and Yogi, who focuses his consciousness on the Lord's feet. ||7||
Aws inrws rhY sMinAwsI eyksu isau ilv lwey ] (1013-11, mwrU, mÚ 1)
aas niraas rahai sani-aasee aykas si-o liv laa-ay.
Amidst hope, the Sannyaasi remains unmoved by hope; he remains lovingly focused on the One Lord.
hir rsu pIvY qw swiq AwvY inj Gir qwVI lwey ] (1013-12, mwrU, mÚ 1)
har ras peevai taa saat aavai nij ghar taarhee laa-ay.
He drinks in the sublime essence of the Lord, and so finds peace and tranquility; in the home of his own being, he remains absorbed in the deep trance of meditation.
mnUAw n folY gurmuiK bUJY Dwvqu vrij rhwey ] (1013-13, mwrU, mÚ 1)
manoo-aa na dolai gurmukh boojhai Dhaavat varaj rahaa-ay.
His mind does not waver; as Gurmukh, he understands. He restrains it from wandering out.
igRhu srIru gurmqI Kojy nwmu pdwrQu pwey ]8] (1013-13, mwrU, mÚ 1)
garihu sareer gurmatee khojay naam padaarath paa-ay. ||8||
Following the Guru's Teachings, he searches the home of his body, and obtains the wealth of the Naam. ||8||
bRhmw ibsnu mhysu sryst nwim rqy vIcwrI ] (1013-14, mwrU, mÚ 1)
barahmaa bisan mahays saraysat naam ratay veechaaree.
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are exalted, imbued with contemplative meditation on the Naam.
KwxI bwxI ggn pqwlI jMqw joiq qumwrI ] (1013-14, mwrU, mÚ 1)
khaanee banee gagan pataalee jantaa jot tumaaree.
The sources of creation, speech, the heavens and the underworld, all beings and creatures, are infused with Your Light.
siB suK mukiq nwm Duin bwxI scu nwmu aur DwrI ] (1013-14, mwrU, mÚ 1)
sabh sukh mukat naam Dhun banee sach naam ur Dhaaree.
All comforts and liberation are found in the Naam, and the vibrations of the Guru's Bani; I have enshrined the True Name within my heart.
nwm ibnw nhI CUtis nwnk swcI qru qU qwrI ]9]7] (1013-15, mwrU, mÚ 1)
naam binaa nahee chhootas naanak saachee tar too taaree. ||9||7||
Without the Naam, no one is saved; O Nanak, with the Truth, cross over to the other side. ||9||7||


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Dear all and Admin. Jee,
Many would love to share or read their true experiences with fake Baabaas, also in Gurdwaaraas.
Let the whole world come to know it. Open this thread for all.

Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Some defintions of the terms associated with cults and fake babaas(from around the web):*

*Abusive Guru* - an abusive guru or abusive spiritual master is always (always!) a false guru or master, never a genuinely enlightened teacher. This is because one of the signs of a true guru is that they never justify their abusive behaviour in terms of "breaking down the ego". Abusive gurus are almost always highly charismatic narcissistic, emotionally immature and parasitic sociopaths with a tendency to sadomasochistic co-dependency with their disciples and devotees. Many are inspired by (and stuck in) the intermediate zone, and hence are deluded enough to genuinely believe their own claims. Some may be puppeted by adverse entities. Abusive gurus are highly dangerous individuals who destroy the lives of many of their devotees. However it is also the case that some devotees are not harmed by, and even benefit from, their relation with their abusive guru. This is due to the highly ambiguous nature of the intermediate zone. The organisation of an abusive guru is called a cult. 

*Cult* - _used in this (limited popular) context only_, "cult" refers to the organisation that develops around an abusive guru, and which enforces the abuser's authority, usually by means of an inner circle of lieutenants or close disciples who have taken on the abusive guru's dysfunctional sadomasochistic attitudes, thus keeping the devotees submissive and manipulatable. Every cult (used in thsi context) and cult leader denies that they are really "cults", and instead shadow projects their own dysfunctionalism onto their critics.

*Fake Guru* - as defined here, an individual who claims to be a spiritual teacher or master or true Guru, but has no geneuine spirituality at all. They are ultimately con artists or at best showmen, but provide nothing real, not even anything of the intermediate zone. Many disillusioned ex-devotees see their former guru as a fake; but more often sucha so-called guru is actually an abusive guru tapping in to the energy of the intermediate zone. 



*False Guru* - by far the majority of Eastern gurus to the west, as well as home-grown gurus, are false. They either are deluding themselves, deluding others (con artists), or both. While some fake gurus are harmless, many are abusive, even dangerous, and should be steered well clear of. Such is the nature of lack of spiritual discrimination that many seekers believe that fake gurus are genuinely enlightened. This shows how easily people are fooled by superficial appearances. 

*8.1 The fake or unauthorised Guru *

80% of the Gurus in society today are fake or without spiritual authority. That means they are at a spiritual level much below 70% and do not have access to the Universal Mind and Intellect. In some cases, these people may have a high ability to attract thousands of people by some specific spiritual power they have obtained. 
For example, a person at 50% spiritual level may be able to cure disease from an early age through spiritual power obtained from spiritual practice undertaken in a previous birth. Most of mankind in today’s era being between the 20-25% spiritual level are unequipped to discern whether the person is a Saint or not. However they generally end up following the person who can heal them or perform miracles.
For the benefit of an average person, we have listed some points that a true Guru is not. These are a few points that will help you in finding out fake spiritual guides that can be understood by the intellect and tested. These are some cases where these fake Gurus have exposed themselves by their actions.

*1. The Gurus who generate a feeling of inferiority in others and try to show off their greatness:* 
One Saint asks everyone who comes to pay obeisance to him their name and age. Once that is told he says, “Both the answers are wrong. The name and age belong to the body. You are the Soul. It has neither a name nor age”. Then he speaks on Spirituality and asks, “Are you doing spiritual practice?” If someone happens to reply in the affirmative, he asks “What spiritual practice?” If one replies, “The one recommended by my Guru”, he says “You were not able to answer simple questions about your name and age. Then what has your Guru taught you? Only a real Guru can reply to these questions. Come to me. I will tell you.” 
One should tell such fake Gurus, “Actually your questions were meaningless! You asked me my name and age only because of your awareness of the body (_dehabuddhi_), so I too replied with awareness of the body”. 
What kind of Guru is he who is unable to make out at the first glance whether one has a Guru or if one’s spiritual practice is going on appropriately or not?
*2. Those who have an attachment to wealth and women*
*3. Putting on false airs*
One Guru does not use a watch because he does not want to be bound by the restrictions of time and a watch strap. Yet after every fifteen to twenty minutes he asks others, “What is the time?” 
*4. Desirous of fame*
Some people who have an earnest desire to be known as Gurus and are spiritually evolved to some extent, recommend different kinds of spiritual practice to others. In most cases, they do not walk their talk themselves. As a result, it has been observed that the seekers undertaking the advised spiritual practice progress but the so called Guru remains stagnant.
*5. Encourage dependency in their students*
Some Gurus fear that if they impart all spiritual knowledge to their disciples, they will have no importance thereafter. Hence they do not impart all knowledge to them.


fake guru: A *fake guru* wants his followers to believe that he is God Himself—that's why he tries to impress them with his mystic powers.


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## International Akaali (Jan 6, 2008)

<<<<<<<<<< DELETED >>>>>>>>>>>


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## Astroboy (Jan 6, 2008)

Please be warned on SPN rule No. 10

*Personal Attacks or Sect Bashing:* Do not engage in personal attacks or sect bashing. HATE MESSAGES WILL BE REMOVED WITHOUT NOTICE.


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2008)

International Akaali ji

Please re-post your comment, leaving out any sentences that might be construed by someone as an attack on Balbir ji. You did have some worthwhile things to say.


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*another Definition on Fake Babaas(from around the web)*


Beware of the False Guru
While Masters have many problems with devotees, the true initiate must beware of the "false Guru." These pretenders sometimes enjoy self-importance and power. In an arrogant state, they lose whatever attunement they had with God. They are incapable of being the Lord’s instrument of awakening. The bridge along the path to higher consciousness stinks with the lives of treacherous initiates and false Masters.​Keep in mind that a true Master is one who is consolidated in the higher consciousness and who, by definition, does not fall. Sometimes, however, a very advanced person who is not yet qualified to be a Master may be commissioned by God to act temporarily as a teacher in some ways, preparing his junior brother or sister for the true Master yet to come. This guidance from an advanced and true devotee is not uncommon because there are so few true Masters in the world today.
Looking generally at spiritual and religious communities, one is often saddened by the intensity of the hatred and cruelty practiced in the name of love and obedience to God. The Master/Initiate relationship, therefore, *absolutely requires the good will, respect and obedience of the initiate.*The relationship also requires that the Master be a truly enlightened and constant instrument of the Lord.


*I MUST ADMIT THAT THIS IS A MAJOR EXAMPLE OF A FAKE BABA.*


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## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2008)

Surinder ji

Confessing to some confusion. Both sides of this seem pretty bad. And hard to pick out who is the Fake Baba and who isn't. See my questions. Maybe you can clarify for me.



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *another Definition on Fake Babaas(from around the web)*
> 
> 
> Beware of the False Guru
> ...


 *According to whom? Also fake Baba sounding talk.

*They all sound like fake, bad guys to me. Help!!!OMG


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*good analysis. he he........ see we cannot believe anything other than Gurbani. Better Stick with Gurbani*

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2008)

Surinderji

That is the only conclusion that I can come to. Good thing Sri Gobind Singh Rai ji figured it out ahead of time.


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

> *Again, sounds like a press release for one fake Baba voicing worries about ot**her fake Babas.*




he he, just cannot stop laughing


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*Yes Aad Ji, everytime i tried 'THE WEB'............................*

*AND MY BELIEFE IN GURBANI GETS STRONGER THAN BEFORE......*


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*this made my day................*


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*Guess what i found on the WEB:*





*AKE THE FALSE GURU TEST.* If seven or more of the following describes your guru or spiritual teacher, then unfortunately he or she may not be be as enlightened or good for your soul as you would like to believe: 1.*States his or her own enlightenment:* The wisest masters tend not to state their own enlightenment or perfection for they know that it is both unhelpful to themselves and to their students. The false teachers often make this claim because they have little else on offer to attract followers.  2.*Is unable to take criticism:* False teachers strongly dislike either personal criticism or criticism of their teaching; they do not take kindly to ordinary unenlightened individuals questioning them. They or their organisations will even undertake multi-million dollar law suits to stop ex-members from spilling the beans.  3.*Acts omnipotently with no accountability:* Some spiritual communities are run like concentration camps, with guru and his chosen ones acting like Gestapo officers. Unjust or outrageous behaviour by the guru is passed off as what is needed to help the followers grow (how kind). These are the dangerous gurus who have often severely damaged their students. A real master respects your will even if he or she understands that your particular decisions may not be in your interest, and he or she will act accountably to an ethical code of conduct.  4.*Focuses on enlightenment itself rather than teaching the path leading to it:* It is amazing how much false gurus have to say about enlightenment. They argue their points in the same way that the scholars in the middle ages argued how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. Any fool can talk about the end goal because what is said is irrefutable to most of your listeners. What is skillful is guiding those listeners to having awakening within themselves. The real teacher focuses on the path and strictly avoids any talk on enlightenment.  5.*Does not practice what is preached:* Contrary to spiritual myth, you don't reach a point of realization whereby you can then start acting mindlessly. If a teacher preaches love and forgiveness, then he should act that way, at least most of the time, showing suitable regret for any lapses). If he teaches meditation, he should meditate. If he insists that his followers live in austere conditions, so should he.  6.*Takes the credit for a particular meditative or healing technique:* The fact is that meditation and guided visualisation work. Anyone doing them will experience major changes, benefits and realizations. The false guru will try to own or trademark particular methods and techniques so that she has something unique to attract followers. And she will hijack the effects of meditation as the guru's blessing rather than each individuals natural potential. Often the students or followers are forbidden from divulging the techniques to maintain a sort of intellectual property right, usually under the guise of needing the technique to be taught correctly. 

7.*Specifically gives satsang or darshan when it is not part of his culture:* Darshan is when the disciples or students of a master line up and to pass their master, who is usually seated, with either a bow or traditionally kissing their feet (yes it does happen). In the East, this is part of their culture and a normal thing to do to show respect and reverence (even children will kiss the feet of their fathers). However, here in the West, such copycat behaviour is a strong indication that the guru is acting a role. Satsang, on the other hand, means literally "the company of the Truth". In a deeper sense it is an affirmation of the Guru-Disciple relationship in Eastern traditions. But some Western gurus will use this terminology because they are playing a role.  8.*Lives in total opulence:* There is nothing wrong with living in luxury or being wealthy. But when that luxury turns to unnecessary opulence using funds that were not explicity donated for that purpose then you are probably dealing with a false guru. Money is collected from followers usually in the form of donations, and those donations are given as an act of love, appreciation and to help spread the influence of the master. However, a genuine master is more likely to use such wealth to lessen the suffering in this world, not to buy another yacht, private jet or Rolls Royce.  9.*Encourages or permits adoration from his followers:* Avoid any group that focuses on the "master" themselves rather than the teachings or spiritual practices. This will be a hindrance to your self-realisation for your focus will be drawn outside of yourself, and usually indicates that there is not a lot more on offer than guru worship.  10.*Presents himself or herself overly fashionably and glamorously:* Beware of masters who present glamour photographs of themselves and dress overly fashionably (whilst proclaiming that they have no ego and leading ego-death retreats). Yes it does happen! 

11.*Demands love and devotion from their students:* Keep clear of any master who demands love and devotion. One very well known Western guru stated, "Anyone who loves me is guaranteed enlightenment"! Real love and devotion is earned over time when we begin to really know the whole person and not their public image.  12.*Speaks with an Indian accent or vernacular when he is in fact a Westerner:* Not sure how much this happens now but there are some high profile Western gurus who have (or had) Indian accents, mannerisms and vernacular. Unless they have genuinely spent considerable time in other cultures, they are probably playing out a role.  13.*Runs expensive miracle workshops and courses:* You are unlikely to reach enlightenment after a few weekend workshops with cheesy titles. In our society of "must have now", we want to be able to purchase spiritual development with minimal fuss. Also, avoid meaningless accreditation — it is often used merely to encourage followers to do more courses.  14.*Takes sexual advantage of his or her followers:* This happens much more than many believe. It is not being prudish to include this one because when a follower falls under the spell of a guru he or she is likely to do anything for the Chosen One. It is only afterwards that it may dawn on the follower that his or her openness has been used and abused. This can be very psychologically scarring.  15.*Flatters you and treats you as very special:* Sure we are all special in some ways, but this is one of the things that a false guru may do to hook a potential follower or to get a current follower to do a particular task. Nothing can be more intoxicating to the ego than to be selected by the master or leader (or any high profile person). A real master will stand back and allow you to make your decision whether to accept his or her teachings without trying to influence the process. 

16.*Talks {censored}:* It is surprising what a person will listen to when he or she is devoted to the speaker. It is always a good idea to get hold of a written transcript of what has been said and really read the message. Then tell an open-minded friend who is not a follower what their opinion is purely on the strength of the words. You will soon find out whether there is any real substance to the teacher's message, or whether you are merely being drawn in by the charisma of the messenger.  17.*Overly relies on slick presentation:* Slick presentation can often mask poor content, and so it is important for you to look past the lovely music and video shows at the actual message. The slicker the presentation, the harder it is to see what exactly the teaching is.  18.*Gives him or herself outrageous titles:* Not satisfied by being "merely" an enlightened being, many false gurus give themselves titles (or allow their followers to do so) to indicate that they are literally God-Incarnate, the reincarnation of the Buddha or Christ, or THE chosen one. Some continually change their names, to keep pace with their burgeoning egos.  19.*Runs abundance workshops:* A guru or master is there to help us find an authentic life. This is nothing to do with becoming more successful at work or making more money, although this may or may not follow from being more authentic. There is nothing wrong with abundance weekends, but if we mistake spirituality for increased business success, then we are guilty of spiritual materialism and we find ourselves deeper in the illusion. (The Japanese say that the Gods laugh at those who pray for money.)  20.*Is not interested in you personally:* If a teacher or guru does not have time to interact with you personally, then you may as well read his teaching from a book, because merely being in his presence doesn't help you find realization inside you. You may model some of his spiritual characteristics, but that often only places you deeper in illusion.  21.*Allows his followers to set up a hierarchy of access:* A guru must be accessible. If he is not, or if he allows his followers to block your access, then he is playing the role of a king and not a spiritual guide. A guru is only useful to the process of awakening if you can directly interact with him. 

22.*Makes false claims of lineage:* Many mistakenly believe that realisation can only happen under the guidance of a realized master. In this belief system, gurus are only authentic when they come from a line or lineage of realized gurus. Desperate not to be left out, some gurus claim a false lineage of enlightened masters to bolster their authority to teach. Another pseudo form of "lineage" is to recount a miracle that once happened to them (maybe they cured themselves of some disease or God spoke to them personally) which infers that they are "chosen" and therefore have the authority to set themselves up as teachers and gurus.  23.*Presents themselves as non-profit whilst raking in the millions:* Often, the false prophet will present her teachings for free, whilst strongly encouraging her devotees to make large donations. In this way she can appear above money considerations, whilst maintaining her greed and opulence.  24.*Collects a large band of angry ex-followers:* This is an indication that something is seriously wrong. If she has used kindness and love in her interactions with her students, and has discouraged them from projecting denied spiritual characteristics onto the guru (rather than encouraging their integration into the self), then it is extremely unlikely that there would be more than a few disheartened ex's. Many might drift away and feel they have wasted their time, but they are only likely to have the great anger if they have put their teacher on a pedestal, given him their power, and later realized that he was never worthy of such adoration. Contrary to what some believe, it is actually the teacher's responsibility to strongly discourage students from putting them on pedestals, for this is counterproductive to finding realisation inside.  25.*Uses pseudo-technology:* Many false prophets and organisations base themselves around pseudo-technology in the effort to appear scientific — special meters, communication devices (do you really expect the aliens to use a mobile?) and energy clearing instruments and pendants that involve crystals and copper wire. Once again, this is to distract the unwary from the poor quality of the actual teaching.  26.*Acts like a complete paranoid mad person:* If your Precious One acts like a complete paranoid schizophrenic or psychotic then he or she probably is. Run! Remember that there is no such thing as "crazy wisdom"—wisdom is the art of being balanced. However charismatic they may be, and sane between moments of madness, you WILL be damaged by them.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*Aad Ji please analyse it and give your comments, when you get a chance.*

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*I like 26th point the most.............  he he*


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## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2008)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Guess what i found on the WEB:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will/promise to look at the entire paragraph more carefully, but for now, bhenji, Number 26 may be the key to how a fake Baba gets wound up in the first place. Did you ever wonder how someone decides that He/She is a baba?  Does this happen when one's mental vessel is not sturdy enough to stand up under the confusion, chaos, contradictions, gray areas, criticisms of life. Contradiction makes this person feel persecuted. 

My experience - We grow when we are able to really listen and pay attention to the ideas that "bother" us. We ask ourselves-- why does this person disagree with me? And we want to weigh all points of view. We might find out that we had it all wrong, or partly wrong. And it is a good thing that someone else challenged our thinking.

It may be that "babas" can't handle this kind of challenge. They have to work out a fortress of beliefs that protects their fragile personalities. "Let nothing disturbing in." Since they let nothing in, nothing is there to contradict them. Therefore, they think they have something that works. Then they go about sharing The Formula with people who are so weakened by life that they are willing to try anything to overcome their fear. They need the baba. And the baba needs them. The baba needs a loyal group to prove that "My thinking is perfectly true, See! No one contradicts me."


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## simpy (Jan 9, 2008)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Raam Das Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan:*

*hir hir krih inq kptu kmwvih ihrdw suDu n hoeI ] **(732-6, sUhI, mÚ 4)
**har har karahi nit kapat kamaaveh hirdaa suDh na ho-ee.
**One who chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, while constantly practicing deception, shall never become pure of heart.
Anidnu krm krih bhuqyry supnY suKu n hoeI ]1] **(732-6, sUhI, mÚ 4)
**an-din karam karahi bahutayray supnai sukh na ho-ee. ||1||
**He may perform all sorts of rituals, night and day, but he shall not find peace, even in dreams. ||1||*

*me neech humbly asking for everybodys forgiveness


*


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## Randip Singh (Jan 9, 2008)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> Dear Randip Ji,
> 
> the effort here is to alert and warn people, so that they can think of their sangat....................
> 
> ...


 
I think what I am trying to say it is far more subtle than what the initial post suggests.


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## simpy (Jan 9, 2008)

*then say it veer Randip Ji, may be in a seperate thread- New One. If you dont like this one........*

*thanks*


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## simpy (Jan 9, 2008)

> They need the baba. And the baba needs them.


 
*A sikh must not even think of looking for a baba etc. As We have Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. *

*Some people just get lazy and simply dont want to learn Gurbani.*

*But i really bow down for those who make an effort to learn Gurbani, even when their first language is not Gurmukhi........*

*Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah Teri Kirpa*


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## AmbarDhara (Jan 9, 2008)

A Saint never sing his own praises. So that is the first sign he is fake


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## Sardara123 (Feb 15, 2008)

Can somebody Answer:


Is Posting Gurbani on the Internet considered a CULT?

If one doesnt want to reply to an asked question with their own views- can that person be considered a cult?

I am asking this question as our dear fellow member Ekmusafir Ajnabi classifies those as cult who perform the these tasks :
Post Gurbani.
Dont answer an asked question with their own comment but direct the questioner to Gurbani.


Thanks


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## Astroboy (Feb 15, 2008)

Sardara Ji,

A gurmukh or true sikh strives to achieve a state of consciousness that provides him/her immunity to the slander of others. You seem to be very sensitive yet determined sikh. Wish you well. 
And rise above the emotional state.


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## Sardara123 (Feb 16, 2008)

namjap said:
			
		

> Sardara Ji,
> 
> A gurmukh or true sikh strives to achieve a state of consciousness that provides him/her immunity to the slander of others. You seem to be very sensitive yet determined sikh. Wish you well.
> And rise above the emotional state.


 

Naamjap ji, 

I am enough imune to slandering, dont worry about me I am just a neechan to vi neech guy. 

Dear *********naamjap ji:Haven't you seen that I am still posting Gurbani, . So slandering haven't effected me, it does prove my immunity.

And much much much thanks for reminding me to polish my immunity to slandering skill, Waheguru Di Dyaalta naal, I am glad people like you are around to correct mistakes of people like me neech. Thanks again.

*I am asking this question to get group clarification for all those who may believe Ajanabi's words and hesitate to post Gurbani.* That's all naamjap Ji.



From your wonderful answer I understand:

Ajnabi just slandered all those who prefer Gurbani. 

Thanks Naamjap Ji. It is strange but excellent that this answer came from you, and 'the first answer', as you were the big supporter of him in the same thread for the same things he says against posting Gurbani. Waheguru Di Bari Mehar Hai.

Very good going naamjap Ji.
Thanks a million.


I got one vote- it was just a slandering, that's all .
Sangat Ji if you are reading this thread, please respond to the question in the post #127 , Thanks


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## kaur-1 (Feb 16, 2008)

Sardara123 said:


> Can somebody Answer:
> 
> 
> Is Posting Gurbani on the Internet considered a CULT?
> ...



Could you kindly provide the post link of said remark please as I have not been following  all threads in detail.


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## Sardara123 (Feb 16, 2008)

kaur Ji,

this is the post- Today(within a few hours) this post is modified, I suppose another mod did take care of the issue, thanks. But where you see the ****, that's where it was addressed as a cult, SO I GOT CONCERNED.


From thread: Need of True Guru.


			
				Ekmusafir_Ajnabi said:
			
		

> "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sardara123 (Feb 16, 2008)

If I cant express my feelings and understanding: why I should be forced to do so. There are several people out there who can, and they will and infact they do. Naamjap answered, Aad Ji answered, you answered, Pyramid answered. It just seems all together that they didn't want the thread-'need of true guru' to proceed further on its original topic, that's all.


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## spnadmin (Feb 16, 2008)

Sat Nam,

I am the mod who deleted parts of the commentary by Forum Member Ekmusafir ji.

Leaving as much as I could to honor respected Jasleen ji's original point. She would have liked more explanations and less pasting in of Gurbani without any additional comments. That is a valid request and she was not trying to insult anyone. Now that we have been asked by Admin to include commentary with Gurbani, Jasleen's question will be addressed from now on.

Whenever a mod deletes part of a post, the reasons are given in a little box at the bottom of the comment pane. Hope this clears things up.


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## Sardara123 (Feb 17, 2008)

aad ji,

I am very happy with the deletion, and very much thankful to you as you took care of the issue very thoughtfully. 

Things are clear, as always.

Thanks.


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## spnadmin (Feb 17, 2008)

In one life there is much knowledge to be gained, and wisdom to be gained, and skills to be mastered. It is all good and all God's creation. But useless without belief in the Naam.



ਜੇ ਸਉ ਵੇਰ ਕਮਾਈਐ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜਾ ਜੋਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jae so vaer kamaaeeai koorrai koorraa jor ||1|| rehaao ||
If falsehood is practiced a hundred times, it is still false in its effects. ||1||Pause||


ਪੂਜ ਲਗੈ ਪੀਰੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
 pooj lagai peer aakheeai sabh milai sansaar ||
You may be worshipped and adored as a Pir (a spiritual teacher); you may be welcomed by all the world;
 

 ਨਾਉ ਸਦਾਏ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਿਧੁ ਸੁਮਾਰੁ ॥ 
 naao sadhaaeae aapanaa hovai sidhh sumaar ||
you may adopt a lofty name, and be known to have supernatural spiritual powers
 

 ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਸਭਾ ਪੂਜ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
 jaa path laekhai naa pavai sabhaa pooj khuaar ||2||
-even so, if you are not accepted in the Court of the Lord, then all this adoration is false. ||2||
 

 ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਥਾਪਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
 jin ko sathigur thhaapiaa thin maett n sakai koe ||
No one can overthrow those who have been established by the True Guru.
 

 ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੋ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
 ounaa andhar naam nidhhaan hai naamo paragatt hoe ||
The Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is within them, and through the Naam, they are radiant and famous.
 

 ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ 
 naao poojeeai naao manneeai akhandd sadhaa sach soe ||3||
They worship the Naam, and they believe in the Naam. The True One is forever Intact and Unbroken. ||3||


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## Pyramid (Mar 7, 2008)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Raam Das Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan:*
> 
> *hir hir krih inq kptu kmwvih ihrdw suDu n hoeI ] **(732-6, sUhI, mÚ 4)*
> *har har karahi nit kapat kamaaveh hirdaa suDh na ho-ee.*
> ...


 
Surinder Ji,

I understand now why you started this thread on SPN. I always like reading your posts. Thanks.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## spnadmin (Mar 7, 2008)

Pyramid ji

Forum member Surinder ji has always been a source of clear, focused, accurate and unwavering guidance on gurmat vichaar from the perspective of Guruji. (is there another perspective on gurmat?) A learned woman actually. I learned more from her in the few months that she was an active member than anyone else  or any other of the informational web sites. Because what she writes comes from the Guru's Bani.

The threads on Babas indicate how Bani is truly helpful in understanding many serious problems of our times.


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## Astroboy (Mar 7, 2008)

Kya pariye kya guniye ||
kia baed purana suniye ||
pare sune kia hoyee ||
jao sahaj na milio soyee ||
Hari ka naam na japas gawara ||
kia soche barambara ||




Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji (Srinagar Wale) - Kya Soche Barahbaar


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## KulwantK (Oct 16, 2008)

Sat Nam, everyone.  Godd to be back after dealing with health issues.
Thank you all for the warnings about cults.  They are dangerous, indeed.  One such cult is the
"Deeksha" movement, whereby members are recruited by a free "Deeksha healing".
You can see more information at
deekshasecrets.blogspot.com
Be very careful, and discernment is the watchword of the day.
Wahe Guru
Kulwant


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## punjabikiren (Oct 16, 2008)

just fought i would add a little experience of my own in this post.....ive recently come back from india n the 2nd day of been back to england three indians knocked on my door i answered the door and the guy wearing a turban out of the three handed me over a ppicture of guru nanak dev ji and said he was making a school something to do with the hazoor sahib so he was collecting money but the strange thing was how did he get our address there arent no indians where i live. my mum said come in while i get the money and a drink for you because they asked for water.

anyways, they came inside and mum give them £20 and glasses of water she asked weather they wanted tea and they even said yes to that. then all of a sudden they said to me and mum take your shoes off and sit here (they had there own shoes on) and started becoming a proper baba saying is there a lady in your family with her name beginning with "m" and i was like what the hell. anyways they stayed for ages saying stuff then started becoming aggressive for us to give more money but we kept on refusing and they left leaving us a recipt of the £20 we gave and it was just a blank piece of paper. it was so strange. i was really annoyed we dont know where they came from and asked other sikhs nearby and they didnt have anyone come around.


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## pk70 (Oct 16, 2008)

punjabikiren said:


> just fought i would add a little experience of my own in this post.....ive recently come back from india n the 2nd day of been back to england three indians knocked on my door i answered the door and the guy wearing a turban out of the three handed me over a ppicture of guru nanak dev ji and said he was making a school something to do with the hazoor sahib so he was collecting money but the strange thing was how did he get our address there arent no indians where i live. my mum said come in while i get the money and a drink for you because they asked for water.
> 
> anyways, they came inside and mum give them £20 and glasses of water she asked weather they wanted tea and they even said yes to that. then all of a sudden they said to me and mum take your shoes off and sit here (they had there own shoes on) and started becoming a proper baba saying is there a lady in your family with her name beginning with "m" and i was like what the hell. anyways they stayed for ages saying stuff then started becoming aggressive for us to give more money but we kept on refusing and they left leaving us a recipt of the £20 we gave and it was just a blank piece of paper. it was so strange. i was really annoyed we dont know where they came from and asked other sikhs nearby and they didnt have anyone come around.



*  Punjabikiren ji
As there is a saying" der se aaye, darust aaye( Though came late but have come on right place) I am glad you have learned how crooks disguse.*


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## Astroboy (Oct 16, 2008)

The punjabi word for fortune tellers is Pathraas. Con men.


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## punjabikiren (Oct 17, 2008)

pk70 said:


> * Punjabikiren ji*
> *As there is a saying" der se aaye, darust aaye( Though came late but have come on right place) I am glad you have learned how crooks disguse.*


 

yes thank you.....but i feel really horrible and bad


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