# Dancing And Gurbani



## BhagatSingh (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi guys,
Recently I have been talking to a Singh and he asked me if I would dance to gurbani kirtan. At first, I thought NO that would be disrespect. But then I remembered that sometimes I would be so fixated on the kirtan that I would start to move with it. I would be lost in it to the point I wouldn't care what I was doing. It would feel natural to just move with it. 
Then I thought about it as I talked to him. Since we sing Gurbani, which is a form of self expression, why not dance? Which is another form of expression. Both a gift from God. Both used to express love. Why not dance for God, I thought?

He said he doesn't like the dance  because he wants to concentrate on something different, which makes sense. The gurbani would then create these shockwaves inside him.
I replied in agreement but added that sometimes those shockwaves would be so intense [for me] that you just can't help but move with it.

I want to know what you guys think. Give your sincere and honest opinions. BTW dance could mean any type of movement, I guess.

Thanks 
Bhagat Singh


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## Astroboy (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

I can show you two video clips which show people dancing to the tune of gurbani.
 One blue belter sangat who do arti with a lamp-lit in a thaal and another a 
namdhari mastana dance. I voted NO to dancing.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Americanisation of tribal dances to hymns from the bible are greatly off putting and far removed from the nature of prayer. To create a deep meditational silence and allow spiritual awakening. A quiet contemplation yields positive introspection. Dancing to Kirtan is not what Sikhism is about. There are some aspects of modernism best avoided. We reserve our dancing mania for the bhangra halls at birthday bashes and wedding receptions. It is best this way.


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## pk70 (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

*When I hear Kirtan, I feel soothing effect that actually helps to still the mind, dancing cannot be done if the mind sets for stilling. Many time the head starts moving up and down while sitting and listening to Kirtan. *


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



jeetijohal said:


> Americanisation of tribal dances to hymns from the bible are greatly off putting and far removed from the nature of prayer. To create a deep meditational silence and allow spiritual awakening. A quiet contemplation yields positive introspection. Dancing to Kirtan is not what Sikhism is about. There are some aspects of modernism best avoided. We reserve our dancing mania for the bhangra halls at birthday bashes and wedding receptions. It is best this way.


 
You mean you reserve the dance mania for the excess of energy in the body. Mind is still the controller and the arms go up and down or however people dance these days; the movement made in accordance to the sound of maya.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

it seems clear that you guys think that dancing is some sort of maniac act. 
ever heard of slow dancing?
Ever heard of just moving? barely dancing....

keyword: movement 

i didn't mean dancing like HARDCORE bhangra, maybe I wan't clear enough on that


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



pk70 said:


> *When I hear Kirtan, I feel soothing effect that actually helps to still the mind, dancing cannot be done if the mind sets for stilling. Many time the head starts moving up and down while sitting and listening to Kirtan. *


there you go, that would be considered dancing. why? because in fact there is movement of the body. A little bit more movement maybe of the hands and would probably be considered dancing by others too.

Again, not HARDCORE bhangra, just moving with the kirtan.


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## pk70 (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> there you go, that would be considered dancing. why? because in fact there is movement of the body. A little bit more movement maybe of the hands and would probably be considered dancing by others too.
> 
> Again, not HARDCORE bhangra, just moving with the kirtan.



*That also shows a complete involvement in Kirtan, senses are focused, outer distraction dies completely; however, it has nothing to do with"dancing taken as in popular term" What you are stating about movements, surprisingly they occur only if a complete attention is in Kirtan*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



pk70 said:


> *That also shows a complete involvement in Kirtan, senses are focused, outer distraction dies completely; however, it has nothing to do with"dancing taken as in popular term" What you are stating about movements, surprisingly they occur only if a complete attention is in Kirtan*


Yes! I mentioned that in the main post. ..shockwaves too intense... movement  created...


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> who makes that sound of maya?
> if you think about it even gurbani is maya. :yes:
> So back to the question...


 
By your question you imply God does everything then Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji should not have fought the Mughul army because God was killing the Hindus and Sikh. Your question leads no where and proves nothing.

Gurbani is never maya. Your mind might see it this way for whatever reason, but the Shabad Guru is purely the Truth. This doesn't even have to be discussed any person that reads Gurbani can see clearly, that Guru ji never calls Gurbani maya.

Here's a Hukamnama from Dec. 12/08. 

SORAT’H, NINTH MEHL:​ 
That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain, who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust; || 1 || Pause || Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride; who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor; || 1 || who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world; who is not touched by sexual desire or anger — within his heart, God dwells. || 2 || That man, blessed by Guru’s Grace, understands this way. O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. || 3 || 11 || ang 633

Here Guru ji is telling us not to be affected by pain or pleasure. Keep the mind still. But what do some want to do they want to dance because they are happy; someone get's married, sons birth day etc. But when God takes the son away what happens, they cry in agony for taking what they thought was their's. All these emoitions that change a person behaviour are taking a person further way from the Lord. The mind dances and the body is the puppet. Conquer the mind, and conquer the world. Does this line not come in Japji Sahib. How many people actually read it! What have you conquered when you dance to sounds of maya! 

Gurbani stills the mind and keeps it in a relaxed state where it is not affect by pain or pleasure. Single mindly read Gurbani and you'll understand what I am saying otherwise I know your answers, its sometimes i feel pain or pleasure and this is because your mind has drifted some where esle and is not still. 

Whenever I listen to Gurbani, I have no desire to dance because my mind is still; its focused on the Lord. Whenever I listen to Kirtan my head sways side to side because it is adored into the shabad and the rest of my body does not move it's still, neither does my mind drift. Please understand the subtle part of the mind not drifting before replying to this post.

MAAJH, THIRD MEHL: The Lord of the Universe is radiant, and radiant are His
soul-swans. Their minds and their speech are immaculate; they are my hope and ideal. Their minds are radiant, and their faces are always beautiful; they meditate on the most radiant Naam, the Name of the Lord. || 1 || I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe. So chant Gobind, Gobind, the Lord of the Universe, day and night; sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord Gobind, through the Word of His Shabad. || 1 || Pause || Sing of the Lord Gobind with intuitive ease, in the Fear of the Guru; you shall become radiant, and the filth of egotism shall depart. Remain in bliss forever, and perform devotional worship, day and night. Hear and sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord
Gobind. || 2 || Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship, and through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind. Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. || 3 || People shout out loud and move their bodies, but if they are emotionally attached to Maya, then the Messenger of Death shall hunt them down. Ang 121

The love of Maya makes this mind dance, and the deceit within makes people suffer in pain. || 4 || When the Lord inspires one to become Gurmukh, and perform devotional worship, then his body and mind are attuned to His Love with intuitive ease. The Word of His Bani vibrates, and the Word of His Shabad resounds, for the Gurmukh whose devotional worship is accepted. || 5 || *One may beat upon and play all sorts of instruments, but no one will listen, and no one will enshrine it in the mind. For **the sake of Maya, they set the stage and dance, but they are in love with duality, and they obtain only sorrow. || 6 ||* Those whose inner beings are attached to the Lord.s Love are liberated. They control their sexual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth. Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, they meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord. || 7 || To live as Gurmukh is devotional worship, throughout the four ages. This devotional worship is not obtained by any other means. O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is obtained only through devotion to the Guru. So focus your consciousness on the Guru.s Feet. || 8 || 20 || 21 || ang 122

The Gurbani in bold sounds familiar to what one witnesses at receptions, bhangra bashes etc. 

Also the shabad in bold could be talking to Muslims because I have seen some Muslims dancing and clapping there hands when hymns are sung; saw it on tv.


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## pk70 (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> That said veerji, gurbani can sometimes ac as the wall too.
> 
> About your poison analogy, anti-poison is also made from poison.  Maya counters maya!
> 
> anyway, wed be going off topic. Maybe I can make a new one on this.




*Bhagat Singh ji, let me give you following Guru Vakas to ponder over;  metaphors “disease” and “doctor” are used in context of Maya influence that sickens the soul by disabling it to walk on virtuous path suggested by Guru, doctor is used for a true Guru who cures that disease.  “Poison is used to counter poison” doesn’t apply here in this context because it is a metaphoric use not a factual use. What is the use of dancing to the tune of Gurbani if it is not understood or it is considered Gurbani a wall? So it is not going away from your topic. The dance we agreed on, needs that attention, if Gurbani is not believed, this dancing become high quality of hypocrisy:yes:*
​ *ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ **॥
**Salok mėhlā 1. 
**Shalok, First Mehl: 

**ਵੈਦੁ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ਵੈਦਗੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਢੰਢੋਲੇ ਬਾਂਹ **॥ 
**vaiḏ bulā▫i▫ā vaiḏgī pakaṛ dẖandẖole bāŉh. 
**The physician was called in; he touched my arm and felt my pulse. 

**ਭੋਲਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਕਰਕ ਕਲੇਜੇ ਮਾਹਿ **॥**੧**॥ 
**Bẖolā vaiḏ na jāṇ▫ī karak kaleje māhi. ||1|| 
*The foolish physician did not know that the pain was in the mind. ||1||
*( Hint is at those who claim to cure without knowing the diagnoses, in spiritual field, stillness of mind doesn’t come by obtaining Maya filled goals but to consider them as of no importance and pursue the Lord in His love, who do this are considered unbalanced in this world but in fact these are the ones who live in that eternal happiness and the others fall into miseries of ups and down created by Maya) *
*The second Guru Vakas clears what is disease and when it is cured what happens within then. It will itself clarify the metaphors at the end* 

*Mėhlā 2. 
**Second Mehl: 

**ਵੈਦਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਸੁਵੈਦੁ ਤੂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਰੋਗੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ **॥ 
**vaiḏā vaiḏ suvaiḏ ṯū pahilāŉ rog pacẖẖāṇ. 
**O physician, you are a competent physician, if you first diagnose the disease. 
**ਐਸਾ ਦਾਰੂ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਵੰਞੈ ਰੋਗਾ ਘਾਣਿ **॥ 
**Aisā ḏārū loṛ lahu jiṯ vañai rogā gẖāṇ. 
**Prescribe such a remedy, by which all sorts of illnesses may be cured. 
**ਜਿਤੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਰੋਗ ਉਠਿਅਹਿ ਤਨਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਵਸੈ ਆਇ **॥ 
**Jiṯ ḏārū rog uṯẖi▫ah ṯan sukẖ vasai ā▫e. 
**Administer that medicine, which will cure the disease, and allow peace to come and dwell in the body. 
**ਰੋਗੁ ਗਵਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਵੈਦੁ ਸਦਾਇ **॥**੨**॥ 
**Rog gavā▫ihi āpṇā ṯa Nānak vaiḏ saḏā▫e. ||2|| 
**Only when you are rid of your own disease, O Nanak, will you be known as a physician. ||2||*


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## spnadmin (Dec 16, 2008)

*re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Actually the comments are not that far off topic. Looking at the first post, the thread starter, the idea is that we are so moved emotionally and spiritually by Kirtan that we move. Somehow we move because we are moved. Makes sense to move because one is moved.

The problem lies in becoming a kookay -- dancing around in a heightened state of frenzy which is not consistent with  faith in One God, nirgun nirankaar, no idolatry.

Also, the rehat maryada forbids playing kirtan to popular tunes thereby veering away from the original raag compositions.

This is very temperate stuff. Not like some other religions. There is no message that dancing is evil -- only the message of right action.
*
THINGS GOT WORSE IN THE DAYS THAT FOLLOWED :}*


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## pk70 (Dec 16, 2008)

*Moved from Dancing With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> actually, we are going offtopic. Since Gurbani would be what you make out of it. But Im gona let the mods handle it since if I could I would move all offtopic posts.
> 
> Ok
> *define: maya*


 *Any thing that taints your love (if you have) for the Lord and triggers duality in mind (longing for the Lord and at the same time longing for other worldly things/humans to have honor or respect/enjoyment etc), it could be a relation, pleasures, wealth, you name it. Lord’s love should remain intact from any kind of effect on the soul regardless the environment the one is in. Who have realized Him, are not worried what others say, and they remain immaculate in wealth, honor, joyful moments or suffering. That state of mind is beyond expression as per Gurbani and also known as being liberated while alive. The people who are deep into worldly play, look at them as eccentric etc. Most of us just long for it, during walking on it, often fall due to Maya influence we fail to overcome.*
*Most of the time we say it is not good for the soul but deep down influence of it, keeps us in it. Bhagat Singh ji, going on this path of beyond Maya is like a goal of an athlete, a scholar or like seeking an expertise. A complete hard work is required on it otherwise; it ends up in mere talks.
ਰੰਗੀ  ਰੰਗੀ  ਭਾਤੀ  ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਜਿਨਸੀ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਉਪਾਈ  ॥
Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.
God, who fashioned the world, has by diverse contrivances created the creation of various colours and Kinds.

ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਵੇਖੈ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਆਪਣਾ  ਜਿਵ  ਤਿਸ  ਦੀ  ਵਡਿਆਈ  ॥ (JapJi)
Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.
Having created the creation, He as it pleases His Honour, beholds His handiwork.

* *

*


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Maya is an excessive attachment and dependence upon materialism and worldliness, the physical world. It does not mean man must not strive to be the richest in his world but that his priority, methodology, and will must always be spiritual liberation with his maker. The hard-line zealots who retain Maya as being anyone able to climb out of reliance upon the prevailing forces of evil, and to be economically liberated is as always slightly sickening and expounded by the every ones unlikely to accomplish such a freedom.

Maya is addiction to the physical, to wealth, wine and paap. An inextricable inability to free oneself from the overwhelming need for such earthly addictions casting man into a hell of blind wilfulness and matter sup receding reason and conscience. Maya is all the sins or paaps combined. 


One who enjoys working hard and find great rewards and pleasure in doing so is not embroiled in Maya. One who craves and schemes for worldly glories by any means is undeniably a paapi and addict of Maya..Dependency, addiction, blind attachment to the physical lower realm detrimental to ones spiritual progress and freedom.


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## pk70 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



jeetijohal said:


> Maya is an excessive attachment and dependence upon materialism and worldliness, the physical world. It does not mean man must not strive to be the richest in his world but that his priority, methodology, and will must always be spiritual liberation with his maker. The hard-line zealots who retain Maya as being anyone able to climb out of reliance upon the prevailing forces of evil, and to be economically liberated is as always slightly sickening and expounded by the every ones unlikely to accomplish such a freedom.
> 
> Maya is addiction to the physical, to wealth, wine and paap. An inextricable inability to free oneself from the overwhelming need for such earthly addictions casting man into a hell of blind wilfulness and matter sup receding reason and conscience. Maya is all the sins or paaps combined.
> 
> ...




*Jeetijohal ji*
*No offence, kindly do not redefine Maya, it should be taken as Guru has used in their Message. Ponder over the following Guru Vakas, read below the dictionary meanings of those who wrote about it after thoroughly studying Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji. Hope you will avoid judging me this time; instead, will try to understand what I am saying here in concept of Maya because I feel; we are no one to redefine Maya which is well expressed in Gurbani.*
*ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ* *ਮਾਇਆ* *ਮੋਹਣੀ **ਸੁਤ ਬੰਧਪ ਘਰ ਨਾਰਿ* *॥
**Ŧarisnā mā▫i▫ā moh**ṇ**ī su**ṯ** ban**ḏẖ**ap g**ẖ**ar nār.
**The enticing desire for Maya leads people to become **emotionally attached to their children, relatives, households and spouses.(when they become hindrance in love of the Lord)
**ਮਃ **1*
*ਮਾਇਆ* *ਜਾਲੁ ਪਸਾਰਿਆ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਚੋਗ ਬਣਾਇ 
**Mā▫i▫ā jāl pasāri▫ā b**ẖ**ī**ṯ**ar c**ẖ**og ba**ṇ**ā▫e.
**Maya has spread out her net, and in it, she has placed the bait.
**ਮਃ **5 *
*ਇਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ* *ਮਾਇਆ* *ਕਾ ਪੁਤਲਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਪਾਈ **॥
**Ih sarīr mā▫i▫ā kā pu**ṯ**lā vic**ẖ** ha▫umai **ḏ**ustī pā▫ī.
**This body is the puppet of Maya. The evil of egotism is within it.
**ਮਃ **3 *
*ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ* *ਮਾਇਆ* *ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ **॥
**Ŧarai gu**ṇ** mā▫i▫ā moh hai gurmuk**ẖ** c**ẖ**a▫uthā pa**ḏ** pā▫e.
**The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya**. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.
**ਮਃ **3*
*SGGS Dictionary*
*1)      [/FONT]**ਭੁਲੇਖਾ**, **ਭ੍ਰਮ**, **ਅਵਿਦਿਆ**, **ਅਗਿਆਨਤਾ (**2) **ਧਨ**, **ਦੌਲਤ (**3) **ਮਾਤਾ (**4) **ਹੇ ਮਾਂ ! ਹੇ* *ਮਾਤਾ (**5) **ਭਲਾਉਣ/ਭਰਮ ਉਪਜਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ (**6) **ਸਰੀਰਕ ਭਾਵ ਦੁਨਿਆਵੀ*
*2)      [/FONT]**.   Māyā, the world and its entanglements. *
*SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, **Santa Monica**, **CA**, **USA*
3)      [/FONT]*. strach, farina; goddess of wealth, Lakshmi; wealth, riches, money, mammon,; illusionary or illusory world of senses, material world; illusion, illusory phenomena (applicable inSGGSJI)*
*Thanks.
*


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

PK70 - Your Bani offering reiterates precisely what I have said. Kindly desist from jumping the gun each time I post. It is annoying. Your interpretation is based upon your personal criterion to suit your agenda, desist or allow others to follow suit in kind. Any distortions of Bani are met with rigorous retaliation and rebuttal. The senseless need of certain Sikh zealots to ensure Sikhs remain poor and struggling sicken me.


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## pk70 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



jeetijohal said:


> PK70 - Your Bani offering reiterates precisely what I have said. Kindly desist from jumping the gun each time I post. It is annoying. Your interpretation is based upon your personal criterion to suit your agenda, desist or allow others to follow suit in kind. Any distortions of Bani are met with rigorous retaliation and rebuttal.



*Reread your own post. You are taking exceptions, there is no exception as per Guru ji. I have not interpreted Gurbani, so being habitual, stop accusing me of these things. What you have said is your own choices, Guru doesn't give such choices. I haven't read in any where the meaning of Maya you are redefining... I am not jumping on your post, only rebuttling the views I see are based on your own philosophy that has nothing to do with Gurbani, at least avoid redefining where Guru ji is very clear. Do not threat me, as you are expressing your views, so I am I.
*


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

I repeat Sikh zealotry distorting the term Maya to suppress fellow Sikhs mainly by a denied envy, in prospering sicken me. As the state of Punjab is milked and exploited by its enemies falls to the enemy within who also exploits the bitter wrangling internally by so called vocal and extremist Sikhs have near destroyed the homeland and seek to keep it oppressed, whilst pandering if not selling their meagre souls for a pittance to any power willing to pay for such wretched protagonists willing to devour their own for glory and profit. How the empire of Punjab was lost in times of yore is not entirely forgotten by some. 

Loud ignoramuses will be the main cause of the death of religion. Who needs atheists with such ignorant persons in the midst of a truth seeking fraternity, when the task is so well accomplished by the same said...


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## pk70 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

*When personal views are questioned in context of Guru Message, blames are thrown to satisfy personal ego. How Sikh kingdom was lost, History is very clear. It cannot be defined on assumptions. So jeetijohal jio, if given meaning before or after your post are not acceptable to you, it is not any body’s fault. Just get over it and stop blaming others. I have nothing against you, I will never have but to accept some ones own new definition is hard to swallow specially if it doesn’t align with the Gurbani.. Distortion of Gurbani issue was brought two times even when there is no interpretation done by me. If it is, kindly elaborate on that instead of blaming. *


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## Astroboy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

We have a Maya thread, so please divert all posts on Maya to thread name - 
http://www.sikhism.us/gurmat-vichaar/23639-our-4-days-in-maya-2.html#post90957


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## pk70 (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

They may become fanatics! They may think it has mantras which if recited with PROTECt them. Many people think that!! 
If you find this insulting then you really shouldn't because then you seem blinded by SGGS too, which would further provide the evidence.(quote bhagat singh ji)
*Who are fanatics have no understanding of SGGS Ji. the vital quality of SGGS ji is that it appeals to universal equality and brotherhood, acting otherwise are not follower of SGGS ji.
Regarding evidence provinding, it is your call, now you have asked it, here it is, and let me make you aware of a fact so that it should not be further distorted, it is for those who consider Sree Guru Granth Sahib is their True Guru*
*ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਮਾਰ ਦਿਵਾਵੈ **॥ **ਫੇਰਿ ਓਹ ਵੇਲਾ ਓਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਆਪੇ ਖਾਵੈ **॥ **ਨਰਕਿ ਘੋਰਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਖੜਿਆ ਜਿਉ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਇ ਗਲਾਵੈ **॥ **ਫਿਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਵੈ ਤਾ ਉਬਰੈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ **॥ **ਹਰਿ ਬਾਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ **॥**੧**॥ *
*Who slanders the perfect True Guru him the Creator destroys. **That opportunity comes not his hand again. He Himself eats what he himself has sown. **Putting a halter round his neck, he shall be taken to the terrible hell with blackened face, like a thief. **When he again seeks, Satguru's protection and remembers Lord God's Name then is he saved. **Nanak utters and announces the proceeding of God's court. So it pleases God the Creator. 
*


WHY? 

*ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੪ **॥ **ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਦੁਰਜਨਾ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਧੂ ਸਜਨਾ **॥**੧**॥ *
*Slok 4th Guru. **In the mind of the evil perverse persons is the disease of pride, and they are gone astray in doubt. **Nanak, by meeting the saintly Satguru, the friend, they get the disease eradicated. *


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## Sinister (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



pk70 said:


> *When I hear Kirtan, I feel soothing effect that actually helps to still the mind, dancing cannot be done if the mind sets for stilling. Many time the head starts moving up and down while sitting and listening to Kirtan. *


 
i dunno about that, i like the sufi dances, they sure look like they can still the mind...and personally i think they look cool.

YouTube - Whirling Dervishes in TURKEY - Sufi, Semazsen





YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

c h e e r s


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



Sinister said:


> i dunno about that, i like the sufi dances, they sure look like they can still the mind...and personally i think they look cool.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9-MC3-kxshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjSig4DxU_M&feature=relatedc h e e r s


Hey cool music. Is it religious or just plain music?
The dance in the first one is quite simple, which is what I pictured dancing to gurbani is.
*
Embedding was disabled on the second video. Antonia*


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## Sinister (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> Hey cool music. Is it religious or just plain music?
> The dance in the first one is quite simple, which is what I pictured dancing to gurbani is.


 
It is religious. I dont know much about it, i think its called Rumi after a persian theologian/poet. The dance is done in parts of Turkey and has sufi-islamic origins...most likely done for some spiritual experience.

the rumi movement seems rather interesting, has a great universal message. found this:
Rumi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i dont know much about it but i always enjoyed watching their spiritual dance/movements and their music whenever its on tv.

as for dancing to a shabad or to gurbani...or swaying to the ryhtym of gurbani...i dont know...ive never had the feeling to sway or dance.

some word of advice? (not that i think you need any from the likes of me), but, I think a person like you does not have to feel obligated to defend yourself against a loon attack...it works out best to ignore and let them foam at the mouth all they want. and the last thing you want to do is give out a location to some overtly-self motivated nutbag on the internet.

c h e e r s


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



namjap said:


> We have a Maya thread, so please divert all posts on Maya to thread name -
> http://www.sikhism.us/gurmat-vichaar/23639-our-4-days-in-maya-2.html#post90957




Nam Jap ji,

Approximately 3 pages of off-topic comments have been moved to Leaders. I will take a look at the conversations about Maya and perhaps begin a new thread just for them. 

This is an all time-record for post-moving on SPN. Not a good day for satsang it appears to me. :roll:

Any continued discussions of life in Antarctica, meetings in Canada, or cowardice will be deleted without notice or warning. Any mod/leader who spots this will be motivated to take action. :advocate: Off topic comments will be moved out of the forum. :advocate: Discussions of Maya will be evaluated for their relevance to other threads. :idea:

Not my place to try to analyze what happened today -- maybe a _sadesati_ - who knows? 

FAIR WARNING


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



namjap said:


> I can show you two video clips which show people dancing to the tune of gurbani.
> One blue belter sangat who do arti with a lamp-lit in a thaal and another a
> namdhari mastana dance. I voted NO to dancing.




I also voted NO to dancing.


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

ctually quite interesting -- Whirling Dervishes emerged in Turkey. Their dance is a form of meditation.

*Whirling Dervishes*







Known to the west as Whirling Dervishes, the members of the Mevlevi Order (named for their founder Mevlana) from Konya lived in what we might call coisters or monasteries - what to them was a Mevlevihane. The one at Galata in Istanbul is a product of late Ottoman architecture, and quite elaborate in having a tomb, a large chamber for the ceremony of the whirling dance (Sema), a fountain from which water was charitably distributed to the public, a time keeper's room, cells for the dervishes, separate quarters for the Master, a section for women, a chamber of silence, a large ornate fountain for ablutions, and a laundry room.
  The Mevlevi Order founded by Mevlana in Konya during the Seljuk period is made up first and foremost of tekke analogous to the monasteries of the West. The first of these tekkes is named for Mevlana and was considered as the originator of all the rest. One figure stands out in the early spread of the order: Divani Mehmet Celebi. The celebis or gentle ones who went out to break new ground and make converts saw themselves as disciples of this great master, and an astonishing number of tekkes were established during Divani Mehmet Celebi's lifetime and thanks to his efforts; in Aleppo, Egypt and Algeria, on the islands of Chios (Sakiz) and Mitilene, and of course on the Turkish mainland. The Galata Mevlevihane is among these latter.
  The rituals of the Rumi's followers (Whirling Dervishes) are among the enduring as well as the most exquisite ceremonies of spirituality. The ritual whirling of the dervishes is an act of love and a drama of faith. It possesses a highly structured form within which the gentle turns become increasingly dynamic as the individual dervishes strive to achieve a state of trans. The music that accompanies the whirling from beginning to end ranges from somber to rhapsodical; its effect is intended to be mesmerizing. Chanting of poetry, rhythmic rotation, and incessant music create a synthesis which, according to the faithful, induces a feeling of soaring, of ecstasy, of mystical flight.


  The Mevlevi sect belongs to the Sunni or orthodox mainstream of Islam. Its doctrine never developed a revolutionary strategy - and although it was occasionally criticized for its heretical ideas, it always enjoyed the respect of the officialdom.


  Many later Ottoman Sultans, including Mehmed, the Conqueror of Istanbul, were enamored of Mevlevi ideals. The reformist Sultan Selim III was virtually a member. Suleyman, probably the greatest of the Sultans, held the Mevlevi dervishes in high esteem and their semahane (whirling hall) constructed for them as his imperial gift. The hall/mosque stands next to Rumi's mausoleum in Konya.


  Besides Mevlevi dervishes, also Bektashi Order's dervishes were highly regarded by the sultans and other common people. The dances of Bektashi dervishes was called as Kirklar Sema dance, which didn't involve whirling like the Mevlana's.


  The Whirling Dervishes played a vitally important part in the evolution of Ottoman high culture. From the 14th to the 20th century , their impact on classical poetry, calligraphy, and the visual arts was profound, while music was perhaps their greatest achievement. Since the dogmatists of Islam's orthodoxy opposed music as being harmful to the listener and detrimental to religious life, no sacred music or mosque music evolved except for the Mevlud, a poem in praise of the Prophet Muhammed, chanted on high occasions or as a requiem. Rumi and his followers integrated music into their rituals as an article of faith. In his verses, Rumi emphasized that music uplifts our spirit to realms above, and we hear the tunes of the Gates of Paradise. The meeting places of the dervishes, consequently, became academies of art, music, and dance. Today, the performances of The Whirling Dervishes includes twelve musicians (on traditional Turkish instruments) and 12 dancers. There is also a master of ceremony. A performance is broken into two parts with the introduction conducted by the master followed by 3 or 4 pieces of music. This is followed by a 4-part whirling ceremony.
*The Ritual of Sema*






The fundamental condition of our existence is to revolve. There is no object, no being which does not revolve. The shared similarity between all created things is the revolution of the electrons, protons, and neutrons within the atoms that constitute their basic structure. From the smallest cell to the planets and the ****hest stars, everything takes part in this revolving. Thus, The Semazens, the ones who whirl, participate consciously in the shared revolution of all existence.


  The Sema ceremony represents a spiritual journey; the seeker's turning toward God and truth, a maturing through love, the transformation of self as a way of union with God, and the return to life as the servant of all creation.


  The Semazen (with a camel's-felt hat representing a tombstone and a wide white skirt symbolizing the death shroud), upon removing his black cloth, is spiritually born to Truth. The semazens stand with their arms crossed, ready to begin their turn. In their erect posture, they represent the number one, testifying to God's unity. Each rotation takes them past the sheikh, who stands on a red sheep skin. This is the place of Mevlana Celaleddin-i Rumi , and the sheikh is understood to be a channel for the divine grace. At the start of each of the four movements of the ceremony, the semazens bow to each other honoring the spirit within. As their arms unfold, the right hand opens to the skies in prayer, ready to receive God's beneficence. The left hand, upon which his gaze rests, is turned towards the earth in the gesture of bestowal.
  Fix-footed, the semazen provides a point of contact with this Earth through which the divine blessings can flow. Turning from right to left, he embraces all creation as he chants the name of God within the heart. The Sema ritual consists of seven parts:


It starts with the singing of the Nat-i-Serif, a eulogy to the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him), who represents love. Praising him is praising the truth of God that he and all the prophets before him brought.
Then follows the call of the drum and the slap of glory, calling the semazens to awaken and Be. This begins the procession known as the Sultan Veled Walk. It is the salutation of one soul to another, acknowledged by bowing.
Then begins the Sema ritual itself. It consists of four selams or salutes. The first selam is the birth of truth by way of knowledge. The second selam expresses the rapture of witnessing the splendor of creation. The third selam is the transformation of rapture into love; the sacrifice of mind and self to love. It represents complete submission and communion with God. The fourth selam is the semazen's coming to terms with his destiny and his return to his task in creation. In the fourth selam, the sheikh enters the circling dervishes, where he assumes the place of the sun in the center of the circling planets.
The Sema end with a reading from the Qur'an. The sheikh and dervishes complete their time together with the greeting of peace and then depart, accompanied by joyous music of their departure.
  One of the beauties of this seven-centuries-old ritual is the way that it unifies the three fundamental components of man's nature; mind, emotion, and spirit, combining them in a practice and a worship that seeks the purification of all three in the turning towards Divine Unity. But most significantly, the enrichment of this earth and the well-being of humanity as a whole.


 Source is this site.

Whirling Dervishes - All About Turkey


Thanks for the wonderful YouTube videos  This video gives some idea of the ceremonial purpose of the Ruma Ceremony. To give up the world. To be one with Him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWARMM8i6x8&NR=1


----------



## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

So Aad ji explain why you wouldn't dance to gurbani kirtan.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

One would think think that everyone will say no. But 5/11 people did not and they listen to kirtan.


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Kirtan - Meditation 

YouTube - Gurbani Kirtan by Bhai Gurbachan Singh Ji Lali


ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
bilaaval mehalaa 5 ||
Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

 1    ਅਪਨੇ ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਬਿਸਾਰਹੁ ॥ 
apanae saevak ko kabahu n bisaarahu ||
Never forget Your servant, O Lord.
 

ਉਰਿ ਲਾਗਹੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ਪੂਰਬ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬੀਚਾਰਹੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
our laagahu suaamee prabh maerae poorab preeth gobindh beechaarahu ||1|| rehaao ||
Hug me close in Your embrace, O God, my Lord and Master; consider my primal love for You, O Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||
 

 ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੋ ਹਮਰੇ ਦੋਖ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਤ ਧਾਰਹੁ ॥ 
pathith paavan prabh biradh thumhaaro hamarae dhokh ridhai math dhhaarahu ||
It is Your Natural Way, God, to purify sinners; please do not keep my errors in Your Heart.
 

ਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਪਟਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਰਹੁ ॥੧॥ 
jeevan praan har dhhan sukh thum hee houmai pattal kirapaa kar jaarahu ||1||
You are my life, my breath of life, O Lord, my wealth and peace; be merciful to me, and burn away the curtain of egotism. ||1||
 

 ਜਲ ਬਿਹੂਨ ਮੀਨ ਕਤ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੂਧ ਬਿਨਾ ਰਹਨੁ ਕਤ ਬਾਰੋ ॥ 
jal bihoon meen kath jeevan dhoodhh binaa rehan kath baaro ||
Without water, how can the fish survive? Without milk, how can the baby survive?
 

 ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਿਆਸ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੀ ਪੇਖਿ ਦਰਸੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਰੋ ॥੨॥੭॥੧੨੩॥ 
jan naanak piaas charan kamalanh kee paekh dharas suaamee sukh saaro ||2||7||123||
Servant Nanak thirsts for the Lord's Lotus Feet; gazing upon the Blessed Vision of his Lord and Master's Darshan, he finds the essence of peace. ||2||7||123||


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> So Aad ji explain why you wouldn't dance to gurbani kirtan.




The dervishes are not really dancing, are they?



ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ॥
guramukh bhagath jaa aap karaaeae ||
When the Lord inspires one to become Gurmukh, and perform devotional worship,


ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਏ ॥
than man raathaa sehaj subhaaeae ||
then his body and mind are attuned to His Love with intuitive ease.


ਬਾਣੀ ਵਜੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵਜਾਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥
baanee vajai sabadh vajaaeae guramukh bhagath thhaae paavaniaa ||5||
The Word of His Bani vibrates, and the Word of His Shabad resounds, for the Gurmukh whose devotional worship is accepted. ||5||


Took out the part about Maya. I actually like to be perfectly still.


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## Astroboy (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Page 465, Line 14
*ਨਚਣੁ ਕੁਦਣੁ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥*
नचणु कुदणु मन का चाउ ॥
Nacẖaṇ kuḏaṇ man kā cẖā▫o.
*They dance and jump around on the urgings of their minds.*
Guru Nanak Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Another shabad which says NO to the urgings of the mind :-

Page 329, Line 2
*ਮਨ ਮਾਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥*
मन मारे बिनु भगति न होई ॥२॥
Man māre bin bẖagaṯ na ho▫ī. ||2||
*Without killing the mind, devotional worship is not performed. ||2||*
Devotee Kabir   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



aad0002 said:


> The dervishes are not really dancing, are they?


Well, ya they are.




> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ॥
> guramukh bhagath jaa aap karaaeae ||
> When the Lord inspires one to become Gurmukh, and perform devotional worship,
> 
> ...



I reckon this could be in the form of a dance as well.





> Took out the part about Maya. I actually like to be perfectly still.



Smart move. So why do you like to be perfectly still? Any specific reasons?
I could look for reasons on why we should never sit perfectly still. For one, it reduces your blood circulation.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

oooh weird, my last post didn't show.
Anyway, Napjap ji I looked over your shabads and no there is no sign of dancing not being a way to obtain the lord.
I think those White Dervishes are living proof that God can be obtained either way.


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

But Bhagat ji

Whirling in the dervish ceremony is *not* considered dancing.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



aad0002 said:


> But Bhagat ji
> 
> Whirling in the dervish ceremony is *not* considered dancing.


Antonia ji, why not I ask?
And if you read my replies in the beginning I kept insisting that dancing here is not hardcore movement of the body, its moving with the kirtan, and since most kirtan is raag/raag-like, the movements will be slow and flowing (almost natural), could even be like those dervishes. Try putting on a shabad and watch the dervishes whirl at 0 volume... 


I am also picturing the Chinese what's is called, where they move around, and discipline themselves. .... what they show in martial arts movies... I totally forgot!!


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## Astroboy (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Bhagat Singh Ji,

It's a good thing you are doing.
 You are researching Sri Guru Granth Sahib and may Guru Ji's blessings be always with you. 
"Tav Charnan Mann Rehai Hamara, Apna Jaan Karo Pritpara."


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> Antonia ji, why not I ask?
> And if you read my replies in the beginning I kept insisting that dancing here is not hardcore movement of the body, its moving with the kirtan, and since most kirtan is raag/raag-like, the movements will be slow and flowing (almost natural), could even be like those dervishes. Try putting on a shabad and watch the dervishes whirl at 0 volume...
> 
> 
> I am also picturing the Chinese what's is called, where they move around, and discipline themselves. .... what they show in martial arts movies... I totally forgot!!



Bhagat ji

Then let's put the word dance in quotes as such "dance" because that is our word for it. Looking from the eyes of our cultural understanding they are "dancing" but they consider this meditating.

In the symbolism of the Sema ritual, the semazen's camel's hair hat (sikke) represents the tombstone of the ego; his wide, white skirt represents the ego's shroud. By removing his black cloak, he is spiritually reborn to the truth. At the beginning of the Sema, by holding his arms crosswise, the semazen appears to represent the number one, thus testifying to God's unity. While whirling, his arms are open: his right arm is directed to the sky, ready to receive God's beneficence; his left hand, upon which his eyes are fastened, is turned toward the earth. The semazen conveys God's spiritual gift to those who are witnessing the Sema. Revolving from right to left around the heart, the semazen embraces all humanity with love. The human being has been created with love in order to love. Mevlâna Jalâluddîn Rumi says, "All loves are a bridge to Divine love. Yet, those who have not had a taste of it do not know!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_whirling#cite_note-0

In Turkey the Sema ritual is actually outlawed by Sharia and by the Turkish constitution. Followers of Rumi have spent years in prison for discussing the religious tenets of the ceremony. In spite of all of this, the government will promote Sufi sema ceremonies in clubs and bazaars because of the tourist dollars that the dervishes attract. So as a concession to economics the whirling has been billed as "dancing" -- that makes it OK and keepers of Sharia look the other way. Remember the Sufi mystics who were martyred along side our Guru. For chanting the name of Allah, for believing in reincarnation, and for "dancing." 

I have some deep misgivings about the thread title, Bhagat ji. Once I attended kirtan performed at a function where "we all are one" and people were dancing to gurbani kirtan. They were not as far as I could tell Sikhs. It was not a good experience for me to see that because it took gurbani kirtan down to the level of ... well I can't explain it.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> Then let's put the word dance in quotes as such "dance" because that is our word for it. Looking from the eyes of our cultural understanding they are "dancing" but they consider this meditating.
> 
> ...


Well, Antonia ji, meditatin without feeling is just talking to yourself, similarly, "motion meditation" (I am coining a new term ) without the feeling is just motion/dancing.
 Thanks for the bit for background.  I am simply amazed by the dervishes. They highlight my point SO darn well! That The Lord can be obtained by dancing or what I will now call "motion meditation".

I think you thought (that it lowered gurbani) because you might think of dancing as something inferior. But dancing is a form of self expression like singing. So if you can sing gurbani, I am sure you can dance it too with the same effect. Not to mention, you can draw  gurbani and that would be considered very spiritual and meditative (but we will leave that to another thread). Again, I won't tell you what to feel. I just need some sort of sign that what I am saying right now, makes some sort of sense. At the end of the day, it really comes down to you. 
Also, I would like to point out ...there are those who cannot dance, those who cannot talk, those who cannot think, those who cannot draw.... think about it... would God create only one form of meditation? Would Guru Nanak limit Sikhs to nam simran?


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Lol thinking about that the whole yoga thing makes a lot of sense..


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## Admin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



BhagatSingh said:


> Antonia ji, why not I ask?
> And if you read my replies in the beginning I kept insisting that dancing here is not hardcore movement of the body, its moving with the kirtan, and since most kirtan is raag/raag-like, the movements will be slow and flowing (almost natural), could even be like those dervishes. Try putting on a shabad and watch the dervishes whirl at 0 volume...
> 
> 
> I am also picturing the Chinese what's is called, where they move around, and discipline themselves. .... what they show in martial arts movies... I totally forgot!!



*When Sikh Gurus based all Gurbani on 31 Raags then why didn't They form or associate even a single of the dance formations prevalent at that time? Something to ponder upon... *


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



Aman Singh said:


> *When Sikh Gurus based all Gurbani on 31 Raags then why didn't They form or associate even a single of the dance formations prevalent at that time? Something to ponder upon... *


Yes good point. 
A few possiblilities:
- *Admin Cut: **Disrespect to the Gurus will not be tolerated. Freedom of speech is not to be exploited at SPN, it is to be enjoyed. You are crossing a limit.*
- raags create mood, do dances create that mood as well? i don't think so.. for dance to take place you need the raag anyway
- this leads to third possiblity, the raag sets the stage for the dance but any dance is acceptable, anything that occurs naturally
- the gurus are silent on this, so I take it that they are not against it. So perhaps they left it upon us to figure out for ourselves
- *Admin Cut: **Disrespect to the Gurus will not be tolerated. Freedom of speech is not to be exploited at SPN, it is to be enjoyed. You are crossing a limit.*
- dance may have been considered cheap at the time


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## Admin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

*Admin Cut: Disrespect to the Gurus will not be tolerated. Freedom of speech is not to be exploited at SPN, it is to be enjoyed. You are crossing a limit.
*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Just because I said the Gurus are only human??? and they might have not known something??
HAHA 
that is disrespect? 
hahaha
WOW! I didn't expect that on SPN...


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## Admin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

*Do not expect too much when it comes to maintaining a right balance. We do not expect you to hurt the sentiments of the thousands of online Sangat reading your messages. Being a educated and responsible person, we do not expect you to use inflammatory language against anybody and what you are doing is beyond comprehension. We believe you will understand and draw a limit which is acceptable to Sikh Sangat and SPN. SPN is by the Sikh Sangat not the other way around. Take care. 
*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

I only stated what I know is the truth. According to history, they were not known to be ... what I said. Anyway, the Gurus would side with what the truth is. The sangat should be able to handle it as well.
Of course, there are other places where it can be debated but I was not debating.
Anyway, thanks for taking off the major possibilities... you really added to the discussion there by removing them...


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## Admin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

*What we know as the truth is the limit of our comprehension...* Ofcourse the Guru knows the Truth. 

Please avoid inflammatory language when you are debating... there are many ways to convey a message... that's all we are asking... 

Of course there are 100 million discussion forums but there is only one SPN. Enjoy your stay over here. Regards.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



Aman Singh said:


> *What we know as the truth is the limit of our comprehension...* Ofcourse the Guru knows the truth. Please avoid inflammatory language when you are debating... there are many ways to convey a message... thats all we are asking...
> 
> Of course there are 100 million discussion forums but there is only one SPN. Enjoy your stay over here. Regards.


So how do you suggest I convey what you deleted?
I meant what I said. 

Anyway, let's continue with the discussion in the meantime.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Some people just don't quit.


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## Admin (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*



Singh said:


> Some people just don't quit.


Dear Singh, You yourself breached Forum Rule No. 2,3,3A & 11 in this topic alone. Not expected from a Singh like you. Please be more careful. 

*Admin Note: I think there is a need to re-read the Forum Rules/Regulations. Let us just go through.
*
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Comparative religious discussions can be educational, but ridiculing other faiths or excessive criticism of their beliefs is not constructive and it is not allowed on SPN. We need to be tolerant of our differences and accept people for what they are instead of being critical of their beliefs. All allegations must be backed up by verifiable references from neutral sources.

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*
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## BhagatSingh (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Thanks Aman Singh ji!

I found an article on "spiritual dances". I guess someone already coined a term, lol, but I still like my "motion meditation" term. 

Article from: Dance helps churches get in step with God

*Dance helps churches get in step with God*
 By CECELIA GOODNOW
P-I REPORTER
A dozen lithe, young bodies undulate in unison on the shadowy dance floor -- lunging, flexing, tracing shoulder circles to a throbbing bass that resonates in the bones.






 MULTIMEDIA 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



View a slideshow (with audio) featuring photos by Robert Sumner:
*High bandwidth* 
*Low bandwidth*
Reflected in the mirrored walls, the dancers' indistinct ranks seem to stretch from here to eternity in the mini-twinkle of white and blue holiday lights.
 "Free-dommm," wails a soulful vocalist.
 It could be a page from the club scene, like any date bar on a Friday night. But judge not according to appearance, as the Good Book says. 
 For this "From the Soul" class at Westlake Dance Center is a 90-minute shadow dance with God -- one entry on an increasingly crowded Christian dance card.
 "Lord," a young student murmurs in heartfelt opening prayer, "really bless this class and let us not worry about what other people think of us."
 Like a suitor who has finally passed parental muster, dance is making itself at home as an expression of Christian faith, feeding a hunger for soulful movement that both giveth and taketh from pop culture. 
 Once limited to charismatic and Pentecostal worship, dance has entered the mainstream as a growing number of churches weave choreographed dance moves, from hip-hop ensembles to sylphlike solos, into their services.
 Increasingly, it's a two-way street, as trained dancers with Christian beliefs make their presence felt in the seculardance world.





Robert Sumner / Special to the Seattle P-I  Kate Harris, left, and Angela Smith practice a dance during a class called "From the Soul" at the Westlake Dance Center in Seattle.  McDonald's Gospelfest, which has its Seattle debut Saturday at The Paramount Theatre, jumped on the trend five years ago with a new "praise dance" category that is fast overtaking the more traditional singing acts.
 The trend has launched an entire industry of instructional DVDs, classes -- even "liturgical dancewear" that blends freedom of movement with New Testament modesty. Think ankle-length circle skirts and angel sleeves. 
 Never mind that some contemporary Christian dancers wouldn't be caught dead in them.
 "The silhouette is very much like what a priest would wear," said designer Liz Livingstone, a West Seattle native who recently took over Capezio's year-old liturgical dance line. "It's all about modesty."
 Like Capezio, Body Wrappers is known for ballet leotards that fit like a second skin. But six years ago it bowed to customer demand and blazed a trail for liturgical dancewear of the manger-scene variety. Response has been huge, and the line now accounts for 7 percent of sales.
 "We saw an opportunity, and we took it," said Marketing Director Judith Christ (rhymes with "kissed"). 
 Locally, the trend is showing up in classes such as "From the Soul," a Christian dance class launched three years ago at Westlake Dance Center near Northgate. 
 Each sweat-drenched, 90-minute session blends prayer circles and uplifting parables with rigorous jazz technique, driven by a contemporary Christian soundtrack of rock and R&B.
 "We don't water it down," said instructor and dance center director Sheri Lewis, a forthright redhead who deplores the "cheesiness" of so much Christian dance. 
 "If the word 'Jesus' is in the music, we don't (turn) it down to be politically correct."
 The drop-in class has a joyful vibe, with playful camaraderie among the students, many of whom are regulars.
 "I feel more confident here as a dancer," said 24-year-old Angela Smith. "No one is going to judge you. Among dancers, it's so competitive. You have to look a certain way, be a certain way. When you come here, it's an audience of one."
 "Spirit Play," at Phinney Neighborhood Center, is another road sign on the highway to heavenly dance. The twice-a-month class is taught by Betsey Beckman, a nationally known Catholic liturgical dancer who, according to her bio, "dedicates her life and work to reclaiming and celebrating the body as sacred." 
 Beckman, all muscle and sinew, recently teamed up with a member of University Congregational Church to rehe{censored}, through dance and dialogue, the parable of "The Woman at the Well" for an upcoming Sunday service.





Robert Sumner / Special to the Seattle P-I  Sara Sabandal, center, of Woodinville prays at the conclusion of a class at the Westlake Dance Center. Students may pray in silence or aloud as they sit in the circle. Using her shawl with the artistry of a caped matador, she sinuously twisted, uncoiled her frame and unfurled a graceful leg toward the heavens. 
 "In liturgical dance," said Beckman, "you're meant to be a vehicle to a larger purpose." 
 In Redmond, 6th Day Dance Company is one of the most ambitious examples of the dance trend. A professional, modern-dance troupe with a Christian overlay, 6th Day was formed in 2003 and recently earned non-profit status. 
 One of its stated missions is to stage community productions to "educate audiences on the use of dance as an act of spirituality." 
 "We actually started as a dance ministry of Antioch Bible Church," Breece said. "The purpose at that time was to offer dance as a praise and worship tool to the church members."
 The company's hip-hop troupe, Unscripted, offers "educational outreach" and defines its style as "tight and precise and cool, just like our Savior."
 "We're not about preaching," said Breece, "but we want to give kids an alternative to what's out there on the street."
 In this age of politicized religion, 6th Day offers a mixed message. On one hand, Breece said, anyone can come to a show and have a good time: "We just want to get a conversation going, and you don't have to believe what we believe." 
 On the other hand, she describes the dancers as "taking a stand" for their beliefs. Hence the title of their upcoming spring performance: "Breaking Ground."
 "I feel we are breaking ground in Washington," Breece said. "Washington is a totally liberal state, and we're here to fight that. 
 "Sometimes dance is a much less intrusive way for people to hear the message."
 Given the trend, it was only a matter of time before Christian dancers made their presence felt in secular arenas such as Cornish College of the Arts.
 Kitty Daniels, who chairs the dance department at the Capitol Hill school, said the past five years have brought an influx of Christian students -- people looking for ways to integrate faith and dance.
 "They're becoming more open about it," she said. "It never used to be mentioned in application essays before."
 Some of the students have even formed a Bible study group -- a move that has Daniels scratching her head, given that, historically, "artists tend to be the rebels in society." 
 By now she has come to expect that, when seniors perform their required thesis concerts, some will use the program notes to thank not only their parents and teachers, but the powers above.
 "In the last two years," she said, "probably 20 percent have said, 'I thank the Lord for my faith.' "
 It's not always a comfortable fit. 
 "When I went to Cornish my freshman year," said Amy Weaver, a 2005 graduate who dances professionally, "I felt like a freak because I was a Christian. What (classmates) perceived a Christian to be -- I wasn't that. For the first time, I felt like a minority." 
 Having honed their technique, some dancers hope to raise the aesthetics of spiritual dance and turn it into a recognized art form.
 Vania Bynum, a former Microsoft engineer and recent Cornish graduate, solos at churches in Seattle and hopes to form a company along the lines of 6th Day Dance. She studied praise-dance technique at Dramatic Truth, a Christian dance school in Kansas.
 Despite Seattle's "unchurched" reputation, she sees a strong strain of spirituality here and believes anyone can enjoy the artistry of a well-executed Christian dance.
 "Even if you are an atheist," she said, "you can be touched by spiritual dance."


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

Dancing is a form of communication, it speaks a dialect of words and poetry in motion. It is the art of the free. Some as yet with a susceptibility to what is considered frivolity take exception to dancing per se, and would consider dancing to Kirtan reprehensible. It is considered inappropriate to display any lack of impropriety. Dervishes twirling in quiet motion are the spirit unfettered. Free will accorded to individuals is manifested in differing ways. Some come alive to the beat of the dhol and others feel their sensibilities assaulted and set upon by groups of individuals freely swaying with gay abandon. As improper speech rouses devilishness and mortifies the civil, thus such undisciplined motion affronts those who prefer to exercise such displays in the designated places. 

You may have witnessed on dancing floors at parties etc, some dace consciously of those around them whilst others seem to be taken by a jinn and lose themselves to the music, sometimes in an embarrassing and uninhibited manner. Most respectable folk have no desire to be privy to such displays of exhibitionism. Dancing should therefore remain in places where such merriment is to be expected.

The sensibilities or sensitivity of most folk at times seems to struggle with carnal temptation, to maintain sobriety at all times, we would not wish to witness any displays of such in our elders and silently decry any such attempts to change what is an accepted premise for decent society. 

Anger management problems. Each individual is indeed limited to as much understanding and comprehension as his personal acumen and intuitive perception allows. The wise head holds a silent and still tongue. Alas truth seekers, the tormented and angered are usually the loudest and verbose, I being a victim of such ill considered outspokenness at times. Tempers flare in forums in times when peace of mind has become a luxury to be hankered for than a basic right. Maybe in the age of information technology many babbling brooks have created what is a hellish lake of fire, millions of neurons conflicting with opposing synapses all firing and sparking controversy whilst touching on a persons highly charged nerve endings. 

The wise ascetic takes a vow of silence. ‘I think therefore I Am’ is a prelude to 'I am therefore ‘’I am silent’’. The transcended mind becomes at one with its universal consciousness and withdraws into a blissful silence. Maybe we should all remain mindful of the fact that persons expending much time on talking, discussing, exchanging ideas are actually all suffering a mild form of addictive psychosis. A need to find a truth to set them free. The brain becomes accustomed to deep, intense stimulation and constantly craves further doses of thought provoking nuggets. Once the mind is freed, the journey becomes not to think, but to know all things in silence... Silence is Golden.


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## mein murakh (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani*

strange! dancing in tune with GURBANI. i think we are wasting our precious time in this topic .Ok; lets ask dhan sri guru granth sahib whether we sould or not,sahib told us "waaen chele nachan gur.........aap pachharen dharti naal" then "ditti baang niwaj kar...............[sun mun nagri bhaee dekh peer bhaea hairana]" please keep note on sun mun. when my sahib nanak ji is singing the whole city is in amusing situation  and the city is without word.i m sure that is the actual stage " kaho kabeer gunge gur khaea pooche te keaa kahie" and if someone is dancing gurbani:happy:...........................moorkhe naal na lujiay.


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## Admin (Dec 19, 2008)

*Admin Note: 
As it turning out to be a study of Sikhism in conjunction with other philosophies, this topic has a new heading and is moved to interfaith dialogues section. Kindly be informed accordingly.
*


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 19, 2008)

Apologies. My point was the matter of equipoise, of spiritual equilibrium, of bani and kirtan being paths to the state of sahej. Dancing may be a release in the appropriate place but has no bearing in matters of prayer. American churches sing loudly and dance and who are we to cast aspersions. I do not consider dancing around totem poles in a fit of elevated, excitable hysteria has any relevance to prayer, shabad or kirtan. The Sikh prayer ritual of deep devotional peace and sobriety is extremely difficult to elaborate upon as it is near perfect. There is no desire for any Sikhs to need to frolic like dervishes or dancers*. Calm, composed and collected state of supreme and sublime consciousness. Sikhism must resist all advances to desecrate and destroys with subtle ploys its inner sanctum. We have bhangra halls for person wishing to express themselves physically in the form of dance. All things in their rightful place.


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## Astroboy (Dec 19, 2008)

I had a conversation with a member of the Shia Muslim community at Islamfactor.org and 
took the opportunity to share information between Shiaism and Sikhism. 
At a point, she said, she's afraid to be influenced by Sikh thoughts because it might share 
similarities between present Sufi practices which are out of line with mainstream Shiaism. 
The video she showed to me about present day Sufism is this :-

CLICK TWICE ON THE VIDEO TO REDIRECT TO YOUTUBE.


YouTube - Dancin in a Mosque


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## Astroboy (Dec 19, 2008)

She probably mistook Namdharis as Sikhs. 

YouTube - Kookay Gone Wild


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 19, 2008)

Eh mere Pyara Prabhu, Kaun tera rakhwala...

In times of torment, they bark at my heels saith the Brahm Giani
And life becomes a struggle that I not become as my tormentors.
On life’s journey, a path of roses and thorns alike
To whom should the tortured soul beseech, a silent plea
What has become of my devta’s, of holy men and sacred vows
When risen the hell of anarchism, all lament a torrent
Of emotional bile upon the heads of his Spirits in transit.

Who has brought my Lord so low, they show, and behold
The enemy is well contained within their throng, belongs 
In name of tolerance, to whom should one lament. Spent the rage
Assuage all or God be damned into a fury of the devils concoction
To whom should one lament, when he himself is in torment.

With silent refrain, and an unspeakable disdain, we maintain
A composure of sorts, and with dignified silence, calm his raging seas.

Sufism is the intellectual branch of Islam. It has members of great intelligence, truth seekers of a brighter tomorrow, a higher purpose, of grander Lords. What depiction is this that so portrays and thus betrays its adherents so abominably possessed. In this Kalyug of fury evil hides behind smirking masks, whilst the good are set upon by a pernicious blast, to whom should we lament. He is dead said Nietzsche and we look about us and find no Gods on thrones but discrowned and dethroned, they roam as pilgrims and the tormented who once were the assemblage of the wise. A traversal of fortune as evil reigns, but why does it without hindrance, who allows such tyrants to smite the good, besiege the innocents and pillage the poor. Dispirited and cast afar from the roots and homelands they wander, helpless, we dare not peer closer, for what we may find, a God, a Father, a Lord so brought low, upon whom once bestowed great Love and adulation, tolerant of the evil, was overthrown by the same and now witches and devils rule, a demagoguery of a more frenzied purpose. One seeks to escape the net of deceit whilst the vultures feast upon his dying carcass, to whom should we lament, our anger spent in quiet desolation, a condemnation, a love turning sour, a peace that avows will again be won that wasn’t undone, and yet remains in search of its own soul. What is this, our fathers so furied, seeming so sullied, we run away into our darkness, lest we offend our own with woes too heavy to carry alone. It goes on ...

With a saddened heart ...


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Apologies. My point was the matter of equipoise, of spiritual equilibrium, of bani and kirtan being paths to the state of sahej.
> *Dancing may be a release in the appropriate place but has no bearing in matters of prayer.*



Why not?




> American churches sing loudly and dance and who are we to cast aspersions. *I do not consider dancing around totem poles in a fit of elevated, excitable hysteria has any relevance to prayer, shabad or kirtan. *



Why not? Does that mean it still shouldn't be done?




> The Sikh prayer ritual of deep devotional peace and sobriety is extremely difficult to elaborate upon as it is near perfect. There is no desire for any Sikhs to need to frolic like dervishes or praying mantises.


Why not? Are we perfect? Have we found all ways to God?



> Calm, composed and collected state of supreme and sublime consciousness. Sikhism must resist all advances to desecrate and destroys with subtle ploys its inner sanctum. We have bhangra halls for person wishing to express themselves physically in the form of dance. All things in their rightful place.


Bhangra halls is for doing bhangra not something spiritual.
Anyway, thanks for your input, next time make sure to explain why you think what you think.

(Bhenji I request you to use more simpler words so more people can understand your posts. Even I have trouble... Thanks)


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 19, 2008)

Bhagat Ji, The goal of each individual is to still his wandering mind, to master the will causing him to crave, need, want, to conquer all causal contributes to the workings and manifestations of his brain, mind and imagination. To be in a perfect state of equipoise. Dancing is a release for many, and in the right environment all well and good. Prayer and Kirtan is to gain control of one’s mind, will and action. To be able to be deeply relaxed, supremely silent, self disciplined and self controlled. Dervish sanding is undoubtedly aesthetically beautiful in its own right. It has no place in Kirtan because it works against the aforementioned principles. 

You may argue dancing can be controlled, then I would refer you to yoga. The art of mastering body balance, suppleness and poise, whilst clearing chakra channels. Apart from this dancing has very little benefit to offer. Logistically I am right, you are at liberty to contend that you have a need to dance to Kirtan and that is your prerogative. I do not feel your personal need has any advantage towards assistant the sangat in the aforementioned former cause.

Some American churches sing and dance loudly causing an over excitability in people requiring a course of self disciple and acquired sobriety. If democracy is introduced to Sikhism, and the Bani is traversed to serve the community rather than submitting to the word of scriptures it will be a sad loss. It is a dark time for religion, where the mob seek to manipulate the sacred doctrine to the whims and wiles of the rabble. Worser things have happened as we witness the division and destruction of the instititution of the church. The Rhadoswami sect has over seventy percent of the Sikh congregation. If your views reflect the modernism creeping into Sikhism then it is indeed sad and tragic time for religion itself and Sikhism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYlk9EPVd0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sikhism.us%2Finterfaith-dialogues%2F23677-dancing-and-gurbani-6.html

**Addendum - By the same measure it can be construed the good Sikh ‘’dancing’’ in the Gurdwara is expressing himself, yet we know he has had demons cast into him, presumably by sorcerers, normal behaviour in some religions, and ignored by a congregation oblivious to a tormented man in their midst. That is the true face of religion. You pay your tithes and lip service and boast of your duty and good churchmanship, if trouble of ill fateedness befall you, God or man, there are few good samaritancs that will assist, and if they did, others would voice contempt, for they feel they have problems requiring greater attention of the masses. Thus humanity is destroyed and men becomes as existential beasts. Religion has become a tool to arm oneself with, and a mantle to adorn ones person. It is also a spiritual path under attack by those unwilling or unable to meet its exacting standard and wilfully seeking to dismantle its sanctum theretofore.***


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 19, 2008)

namjap said:


> She probably mistook Namdharis as Sikhs.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYlk9EPVd0


 
Notice how at 2 minutes the guy got tired of dancing in his ras. I guess God's ras wears off while fully attuned to God. LOL People can present their cases all they like dancing to Gurbani is called duality.

Great video by the way. Just let it rock :rofl!!:


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## pk70 (Dec 19, 2008)

Singh said:


> Notice how at 2 minutes the guy got tired of dancing in his ras. I guess God's ras wears off while fully attuned to God. LOL People can present their cases all they like dancing to Gurbani is called duality.
> 
> Great video by the way. Just let it rock :rofl!!:



*another reason they have nothing to do with Sikhism*


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## spnadmin (Dec 19, 2008)

pk70 ji and singh ji, and jeetijohal ji

I don't think that Sikhism uses the term "pagan" but in the Jewish and many Christian churches, especially the Roman and the Orthodox Catholic churches, dancing is forbidden because it is considered a pagan ritual. Meaning that it is associated by their members with the worship of idols. I think that I carry traces of this thinking inside my head. Traces that are hard to get rid of. There are many attractive things about Sikhism. And one of them is that there are no idols and no rituals. The spiritual practices - simran, jap and kirtan - are reflective and the awareness is turned inward gradually as one looks for the Creator within. 

Here I agree with Jeetijohal ji, To be able to be deeply relaxed, supremely silent, self disciplined and self controlled. Dervish sanding is undoubtedly aesthetically beautiful in its own right. It has no place in Kirtan because it works against the aforementioned principles. 

Dancing is a distraction and takes up attention and energy, diverts it away from dhyann. Some may find this offensive, and I do not mean to offend. It is I think mostly about the way one envisions worship in the first place.


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## pk70 (Dec 19, 2008)

Dancing is a distraction and takes up attention and energy, diverts it away from dhyann. Some may find this offensive, and I do not mean to offend. It is I think mostly about the way one envisions worship in the first place.(quote aad0002Ji)

*Aad Jio,*


*Exactly. Classical Ragas are recommended for Shabad Kirtan to sooth the mind to go into stillness. In that situation, movement of head can occur but it has nothing to do with the known “dance”. As one gets deep into it, that movement of head also ceases. No wonder in Gurbani, no dance is recommended as Raagas are(as put by Aman singh ji earlier)*
*Guru ji takes physical dance to higher level of dance which is performed by the mind only, read ob please*
*ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ **॥ **ਵਾਜਾ ਮਤਿ ਪਖਾਵਜੁ ਭਾਉ **॥ **ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ **॥ **ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਏਹੋ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ **॥ **ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪਾਉ **॥**੧**॥ *
*Asa Measure. 1st Guru. **Make **intellect** thy organ and **love **thy **tambourine**. **By these joy and buoyant pleasure are ever produced in the mind. **This is the devotional service and this the practice of penance. **In this love, dance thou, **beating time with thine feet.( Stay on right path in this state of mind) *
*ਜਿਸ* *ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਨੂੰ ਵਾਜਾ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ**, **ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਿਆਰ ਨੂੰ ਜੋੜੀ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ** (**ਇਹਨਾਂ ਸਾਜਾਂ ਦੇ ਵੱਜਣ ਨਾਲ**, **ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਿਆਰ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ) ਉਸ* *ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਸਦਾ ਆਨੰਦ ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਉਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਅਸਲ ਭਗਤੀ* *ਇਹੀ ਹੈ**, **ਤੇ ਇਹੀ ਹੈ ਮਹਾਨ ਤਪ**। **ਇਸ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕੇ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰਸਤੇ* *ਉਤੇ ਤੁਰੋ**। **ਬੱਸ! ਇਹ ਨਾਚ ਨੱਚੋ (ਰਾਸਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਚ ਨੱਚ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ-ਭਗਤੀ* *ਸਮਝਣਾ ਭੁਲੇਖਾ ਹੈ)**।**੧**। *
*ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਜਾਣੈ **ਸਾਲਾਹ **॥ **ਹੋਰੁ ਨਚਣਾ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਮਨ ਮਾਹ **॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ *
*Deem the praise of the Lord as thy beating time**. **Other dances** produces **sensuous pleasure** in the mind. Pause. *
*ਜੋ* *ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਨੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ (ਜੀਵਨ-ਨਾਚ ਵਿਚ) ਤਾਲ-ਸਿਰ* *ਨੱਚਦਾ ਹੈ** (ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਹੀ ਲੀਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਤੁਰਦਾ ਹੈ)**। (**ਰਾਸ ਆਦਿਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ* *ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ-ਮੂਰਤੀ ਅੱਗੇ ਇਹ) ਹੋਰ ਹੋਰ ਨਾਚ ਇਹ ਨਿਰੀਆਂ ਮਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀਆਂ ਹਨ**, **ਮਨ ਦੇ* *ਚਾਉ ਹਨ (ਇਹ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ**, **ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਨਚਾਏ ਨੱਚਣਾ ਹੈ)**।**੧**।**ਰਹਾਉ**। *


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

Antonia ji, have you read my reply on page 4, posts 39 & 30?
Please share your thoughts on those.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

ਮਨੂਆ  ਨਾਚੈ  ਭਗਤਿ  ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ  ॥
मनूआ नाचै भगति द्रिड़ाए ॥
Manū▫ā nācẖai bẖagaṯ driṛ▫ā▫e.
Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship,
ਗੁਰ  ਕੈ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਮਨੈ  ਮਨੁ  ਮਿਲਾਏ  ॥
गुर कै सबदि मनै मनु मिलाए ॥
Gur kai sabaḏ manai man milā▫e.
and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind.
ਸਚਾ  ਤਾਲੁ  ਪੂਰੇ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਮੋਹੁ  ਚੁਕਾਏ  ਸਬਦੇ  ਨਿਰਤਿ  ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ  ॥੩॥
*सचा तालु पूरे माइआ मोहु चुकाए सबदे निरति करावणिआ ॥३॥
Sacẖā ṯāl pūre mā▫i▫ā moh cẖukā▫e sabḏe niraṯ karāvaṇi▫ā. ||3||
Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3||

*Page 121, Line 18 Guru Amar Das ji


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## spnadmin (Dec 19, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Antonia ji, have you read my reply on page 4, posts 39 & 30?
> Please share your thoughts on those.



Bhagat ji

Yes, I read them. And now have just re-read them. Really, this is the core of the discussion for me. The title before and after its change includes "Gurbani" -- so it is very hard for me to unify forms of meditation from other paths with Guru Nanak's simram, jap and kirtan in which the goal is to become centered and to obtain intuitive ease. This to me means settled, calm, still. What others do is their business. If the title had not included the idea of Gurbani, the thread would be different, would have evoked different reactions than it has so far.


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## pk70 (Dec 19, 2008)

*ਮਨੂਆ ਨਾਚੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ **॥**मनूआ नाचै भगति द्रिड़ाए ॥**
Manū▫ā nāc**ẖ**ai b**ẖ**aga**ṯ** dri**ṛ**▫ā▫e.
Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship,*
*(**Here mind is addressed not the body,  and  note it,dance is performed by the  body
**ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ **॥**गुर कै सबदि मनै मनु मिलाए ॥**
Gur kai saba**ḏ** manai man milā▫e.
and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind.*
*(Again the mind is to be imbued with the Lord, no mention of body movements)**
**ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ **॥**੩**॥**सचा तालु पूरे माइआ मोहु चुकाए सबदे निरति करावणिआ ॥३॥**
Sac**ẖ**ā **ṯ**āl pūre mā▫i▫ā moh c**ẖ**ukā▫e sab**ḏ**e nira**ṯ** karāva**ṇ**i▫ā. ||3||
Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3||*
*Here the rytham(TAAL) is not about physical but in an effort through which one becomes unattached to Maya, then it is about Guru Teaching(shabad) to put in practice and is the real dance as per Guru. Nothing is said in this Shabad about performing dance on Gurbani, when “taal=rytham” is to over come Maya, how it can be used as a tall of dance ?) One word doesn’t define the shabad, take the total meaning. Third Guru wouldn’t write contray to what First Guru has defined already. Here is another translation that makes more sense*

*ਮਨੂਆ ਨਾਚੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ **॥ **ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ **॥ **ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ **॥**੩**॥ *
*Fix thy dancing mind in the Lord's service, **and by the Guru's instruction, attune thy mind with the Supreme mind. **Make the stilling of love of mammon thy true and perfect tune and set thyself advancing to Gurbani. *
*ਮਨੂਆ = ਮਨ**। **ਨਾਚੈ =**ਨੱਚਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਹੁਲਾਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਾਈ**ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਰੋਕੀ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ = ਰਾਗ ਤੇ ਜੋੜੀ ਦੇ ਵਜ਼ਨ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ**ਰਲਾ ਕੇ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਚ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਨਿਰਤਿ = ਨਾਚ**।**ਸਬਦੇ = ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ**।**੩**।

**ਜਿਉਂ**ਜਿਉਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਭਗਤੀ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ੍ਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਹੁਲਾਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ**ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਉਧਰ ਹੀ ਟਿਕਾਈ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ (ਬਾਹਰ ਭਟਕਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਾਈ**ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ)**। (**ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਰਾਸਧਾਰੀਆ ਰਾਸ ਪਾਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਰਾਗ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲ**ਕੇ ਨਾਚ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਤਿਵੇਂ) ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਸੱਚਾ ਨਾਚ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਜਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ**ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ ਉਹ (ਆਤਮਕ) ਨਾਚ**ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ**।**੩**। *


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

[URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=124&english=t&id=5089#l5089"]Page 124, Line 19
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि गावै गुरमुखि नाचै हरि सेती चितु लावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har seṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs* dance*, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||
*Guru Amar Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
[/URL]
Page 169, Line 15
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਦਾਸ ਹਮ ਕੀਜੈ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਚੇ ॥੩॥
हरि के दास दास हम कीजै मनु निरति करे करि नाचे ॥३॥
Har ke ḏās ḏās ham kījai man niraṯ kare kar nācẖe. ||3||
Make me the slave of the Lord's slaves, so that my mind might* dance* in Your Love. ||3||
*Guru Ram Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 278, Line 1
ਜਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਨਚਾਵੈ ॥
जिउ प्रभ भावै तिवै नचावै ॥
Ji▫o parabẖ bẖāvai ṯivai nacẖāvai.
As it pleases God, they* dance*.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 
(for this one I couldn't find the Pauri/Salok that contained that sentence. )

..........................
ਆਸਾ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:
ਵਾਜਾ  ਮਤਿ  ਪਖਾਵਜੁ  ਭਾਉ  ॥
वाजा मति पखावजु भाउ ॥
vājā maṯ pakẖāvaj bẖā▫o.
Make your intellect your instrument, and love your tambourine;
ਹੋਇ  ਅਨੰਦੁ  ਸਦਾ  ਮਨਿ  ਚਾਉ  ॥
होइ अनंदु सदा मनि चाउ ॥
Ho▫e anand saḏā man cẖā▫o.
thus bliss and lasting pleasure shall be produced in your mind.
ਏਹਾ  ਭਗਤਿ  ਏਹੋ  ਤਪ  ਤਾਉ  ॥
एहा भगति एहो तप ताउ ॥
Ėhā bẖagaṯ eho ṯap ṯā▫o.
This is devotional worship, and this is the practice of penance.
ਇਤੁ  ਰੰਗਿ  ਨਾਚਹੁ  ਰਖਿ  ਰਖਿ  ਪਾਉ  ॥੧॥
इतु रंगि नाचहु रखि रखि पाउ ॥१॥
Iṯ rang nācẖahu rakẖ rakẖ pā▫o. ||1||
So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||1||
................................ Page 350, Line 11 Guru Nanak  Dev ji


Page 364, Line 16
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि निरति हरि लागै भाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ niraṯ har lāgai bẖā▫o.
The Gurmukh's* dance* is to embrace love for the Lord;
*Guru Amar Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 506, Line 11
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਹਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਚਹਿ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥
जो तुधु भावहि सेई नाचहि जिन गुरमुखि सबदि लिव लाए ॥
Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvėh se▫ī nācẖėh jin gurmukẖ sabaḏ liv lā▫e.
They alone* dance*, who are pleasing to You, and who, as Gurmukhs, embrace love for the Word of the Shabad.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 506, Line 13
ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ਅਰਥਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਲੋਕ ਨਾਚੇ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
माइआ कै अरथि बहुतु लोक नाचे को विरला ततु बीचारी ॥
Mā▫i▫ā kai arath bahuṯ lok nācẖe ko virlā ṯaṯ bīcẖārī.
So many people* dance* for the sake of Maya; how rare are those who contemplate reality.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 1252, Line 16
ਆਪਹਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਆਪਹਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਆਪਿ ਬਜਾਵੈ ਤੂਰਾ ॥
आपहि गावै आपहि नाचै आपि बजावै तूरा ॥
Āpėh gāvai āpėh nācẖai āp bajāvai ṯūrā.
You Yourself sing, and You Yourself* dance*. You Yourself blow the bugle.
*Devotee Namdev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok




Ok I am gona throw relevant tuks out there for you all, that may have something to do in favour of dancing.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

pkji try separating the tuk from your post. Its a jumble of words and colours. Being an artist jumbled up colours don't read so well... 
Thanks!


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

BTW no shabad in Gurbani says taht we should dance to kirtan and such. I know that bit. Also, there is no tuk that says we shouldn't.

Like Antonia ji mentioned, she likes to be still.
Sometimes one can't sit still. I don't think SGGS is against that.

Anyway, I like how things are being discussed. Good stuf!


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## pk70 (Dec 19, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> BTW no shabad in Gurbani says taht we should dance to kirtan and such. I know that bit. Also, there is no tuk that says we shouldn't.
> 
> Like Antonia ji mentioned, she likes to be still.
> Sometimes one can't sit still. I don't think SGGS is against that.
> ...



*We are back to a circle, good luck*!


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 19, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *We are back to a circle, good luck*!


are we?
well, i missed quite a few posts so ill go back and see what ive missed, and get you guys out!! :happy:


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## spnadmin (Dec 20, 2008)

bhagat ji

OK -- I have not yet seen a picture of sangat in worship -- neither of the modern variety, nor of the watercolor, etching, or pen and ink genre of the raj of Ranjit Singh from the 18th and 19th Century, nor of the Persian miniature style of the 16th and 17th Century -- in which Gursikhs were dancing around in the presence of any of our human Gurus or Guruji. The sole exception is the video of the kookay in the Rhadosoami shrine.

Close your eyes and try to envision sangat dancing around in the presence of Guru Amar Das ji, just as an experiment. I have tried this experiment and the images simply do not come to me.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 20, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> bhagat ji
> 
> OK -- I have not yet seen a picture of sangat in worship -- neither of the modern variety, nor of the watercolor, etching, or pen and ink genre of the raj of Ranjit Singh from the 18th and 19th Century, nor of the Persian miniature style of the 16th and 17th Century -- in which Gursikhs were dancing around in the presence of any of our human Gurus or Guruji. The sole exception is the video of the kookay in the Rhadosoami shrine.
> 
> Close your eyes and try to envision sangat dancing around in the presence of Guru Amar Das ji, just as an experiment. I have tried this experiment and the images simply do not come to me.


Antonia ji in those time, dance was used completely as entertainment and mostly by women. You would find them in courts entertaining kings and guests. These women would be considered sluts almost. So of course, you don't see that image forming.

We know now that dancing is a expression whose purpose is not limited to entertainment.


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## spnadmin (Dec 20, 2008)

Bhagat ji

No so! Bhangra was traditionally a folk dance danced by men, and women had their own dances. These dances were village traditions to celebrate betrothals, pre-wedding celebrations, and celebrations bringing the new wife to her husband's family. There were castes of theatrical dancers who were male-transvestites who also performed at village celebrations on the outskirts of town so that women and children would not see them. There was/is the devadasi system of temple dancers, who indeed were and are prostitutes, but in temples not courts. Just a sample.

Some of the dances listed below have origins in the ancient past where nature's forces were worshiped at times when these dances were performed by the folk of various regions. My source is Wikipedia on this one, but there are many interesting Internet sites. 

1 Bardo Chham (Arunchal Pradesh)
2 Bhangra (Punjab)
3 Chang Lo (or) Sua Lua (Nagaland)
4 Charkula (Madhya Pradesh)
5 Cheraw Dance (Mizoram)
6 Dalkai (Orissa)
7 Devarattam (Tamil Nadu)
8 Dol cholam (Manipur)
9 Dollu Kunitha (Karnataka)
10 Dumhal (Kashmir)
11 Garadi (Pondicherry)
12 Garba (Gujarat)
13 Ghoomar (Rajasthan, Haryana)
14 Goti Pua (Orissa)
15 Hojagiri (Tripura)
16 Jawara (Madhya Pradesh)
17 Kalbelia (Rajasthan)
18 Kamandi or Kaman Pandigai (Tamilnadu)
19 Karma/Munda (Bihar)
20 Kinnauri Nati (Himachal Pradesh)
21 Koli (Goa)
22 Kolattam (Tamilnadu)
23 Kummi (Tamil Nadu)
24 Lava (Lakshwadeep)
25 Mayil Attam or Pea{censored} dance (Tamilnadu)
26 Namgen (Himachal Pradesh)
27 Nicobarese dances (Andaman and Nicobar Islands)
28 Padayani (Kerala)
29 Padhar (Gujarat)
30 Panthi (Chhattisgarh)
31 Pavri Nach (Maharashtra)
32 Poikal Kudirai Attam (Tamil Nadu)
33 Raas (Gujarat)
34 Raut Nacha (Chhattisgarh)
35 Ruk Mar Nacha (& Chhau dance) (Orissa)
36 Singhi Chham (Sikkim)
37 Spaw (Ladhakh)
38 Tarangmel (Goa)
39 Tertali (Madhya Pradesh)
40 Thang Ta (Manipur)
41 Thapetta Gullu (Andhra Pradesh)
42 Theru Koothu (Tamilnadu)
43 Yakshagana (Karnataka)


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 21, 2008)

ooh lol, I forgot about bhangra! HAHA


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

http://deshgujarat.com/2006/12/31/sanedo-danceglimpse-from-gujaratvideo/

http://deshgujarat.com/2006/12/31/sanedo-danceglimpse-from-gujaratvideo/


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

Wedding Celebration Dance from Gujarat. A circle dance mostly men, circling one woman. The bride? 




http://deshgujarat.com/2007/02/22/gujarati-tribals-marriage-night-folk-dance-from-dahod-video/http://deshgujarat.com/2007/02/22/gujarati-tribals-marriage-night-folk-dance-from-dahod-video/


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

This is Ghoomar, performed by women, in Rajasthhan/Haryana. The big skirts are legendary for the traditional dress-up attire of women in rural areas. You can also buy them in stores in neighborhoods with large concentrations of Punjabi Sikhs in the US. :yes: The skirt is worn with salwar kameez, covering the kameez. 



http://video.aol.com/video-detail/rajasthani-ghoomar-dance/956331136


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

Of late Garba and Rass have undergone fusion. So you will see men and women performing Garba.

Little kids and parents learning Garba-Rass


There are in the US Garba-Rass dance teams that compete.

YouTube - Rass (Stick Dance Workshop) from Gujarat - - Utsavam at the Horniman Museum


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

YouTube - Gujarati Jagran Group Ras Performance in Auckland 2006


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

This is more Rass than Garba. All men -- which is typical. Rass for men and Garba for women; except now the dance forms have changed and men and women will dance together. 

YouTube - Ras Garba - àª°àª¾àª¸ àª—àª°àª¬àª¾


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

Bhangra Bhangrissimo

Bhangra is performed throughout the Punjab and is considered one of the indigenous folk dances of across Punjab in both India and Pakistan. Originally it was a harvest dance performed by men. Today it is danced in night clubs and for almost any celebratory occasion. 

YouTube - musharraf dance


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

Gidda

The traditional folk equivalent of bhangra for women is Gidda. 

YouTube - Gidda Dance Santa Rosa Diwali 1


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## spnadmin (Dec 21, 2008)

Last one for now.

Also from the Punjab -- this one is performed also in Pakistan - strictly by men - originally a dance of celebration after a successful battle. Now performed after soccer matches or any victory in the sports arena.

YouTube - Luddi/ Bhangrra


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2008)

Merry Christmas to our forum members who have trees, and lights, and all that good pastry, and all of that! :yes:


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 24, 2008)

Would you close your eyes and spin around in your room (all alone) while having gurbani on? And just spin like youve never spun before! Slowly of course...


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## spnadmin (Dec 25, 2008)

Bhagat ji

No, I can't say I would.

ਵਾਜਾ ਮਤਿ ਪਖਾਵਜੁ ਭਾਉ ॥ 
vaajaa math pakhaavaj bhaao ||
Make your intellect your instrument, and love your tambourine;
   ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
hoe anandh sadhaa man chaao ||
thus bliss and lasting pleasure shall be produced in your mind.
   ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਏਹੋ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥ 
eaehaa bhagath eaeho thap thaao ||
This is devotional worship, and this is the practice of penance.
  
ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪਾਉ ॥੧॥ 
eith rang naachahu rakh rakh paao ||1||
So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||1||
  
 ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥ 
poorae thaal jaanai saalaah ||
*Know that the perfect beat is the Praise of the Lord;*
  

 ਹੋਰੁ ਨਚਣਾ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਮਨ ਮਾਹ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
hor nachanaa khuseeaa man maah ||1|| rehaao ||
*other dances produce only temporary pleasure in the mind. ||1||Pause||*
  
v  ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਵਜਹਿ ਦੁਇ ਤਾਲ ॥ 
sath santhokh vajehi dhue thaal ||
Play the two cymbals of truth and contentment.
  
 ਪੈਰੀ ਵਾਜਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥ 
pairee vaajaa sadhaa nihaal ||
Let your ankle bells be the lasting Vision of the Lord.
  
 ਰਾਗੁ ਨਾਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ॥ 
raag naadh nehee dhoojaa bhaao ||
Let your harmony and music be the elimination of duality.
  
 ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪਾਉ ॥੨॥ 
eith rang naachahu rakh rakh paao ||2||
So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||2||
  
 ਭਉ ਫੇਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨ ਚੀਤਿ ॥ 
bho faeree hovai man cheeth ||
*Let the fear of God within your heart and mind be your spinning dance,*
  
 ਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਨੀਤਾ ਨੀਤਿ ॥ 
behadhiaa outhadhiaa neethaa neeth ||
and keep up, whether sitting or standing.
  
ਲੇਟਣਿ ਲੇਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਤਨੁ ਸੁਆਹੁ ॥ 
laettan laett jaanai than suaahu ||
*To roll around in the dust is to know that the body is only ashes.*
  
 ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪਾਉ ॥੩॥ 
eith rang naachahu rakh rakh paao ||3||
So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||3||
  
 ਸਿਖ ਸਭਾ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਭਾਉ ॥ 
sikh sabhaa dheekhiaa kaa bhaao ||
Keep the company of the disciples, the students who love the teachings.
  
 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਣਣਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
guramukh sunanaa saachaa naao ||
As Gurmukh, listen to the True Name.

Raag Aasa, Ang 350


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## spnadmin (Dec 25, 2008)

Also on the subject of spinning is the following shabad in Raag Aasaa, on Ang 464. Spinning appeals as much as having my camel-like mind wandering from oasis to oasis. It is exhausting and keeps me thoughts spinning in circles. Guru Nanak had a lot more to say about spinning -- but I will leave you with this.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥ 
naanak nirabho nirankaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||
O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ 
kaetheeaa kannh kehaaneeaa kaethae baedh beechaar ||
There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

  ਕੇਤੇ ਨਚਹਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਗਿੜਿ ਮੁੜਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥ 
kaethae nachehi mangathae girr murr poorehi thaal ||
So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

  v  ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ਬਾਜਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਇ ਕਢਹਿ ਬਾਜਾਰ ॥ 
baajaaree baajaar mehi aae kadtehi baajaar ||
The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion.
  

 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੀਆ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਆਲ ਪਤਾਲ ॥ 
gaavehi raajae raaneeaa bolehi aal pathaal ||
They sing as kings and queens, and speak of this and that.
  

 ਲਖ ਟਕਿਆ ਕੇ ਮੁੰਦੜੇ ਲਖ ਟਕਿਆ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ॥ 
lakh ttakiaa kae mundharrae lakh ttakiaa kae haar ||
They wear earrings, and necklaces worth thousands of dollars.
  

 ਜਿਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸੇ ਤਨ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਛਾਰ ॥ 
jith than paaeeahi naanakaa sae than hovehi shhaar ||
Those bodies on which they are worn, O Nanak, those bodies turn to ashes.


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## spnadmin (Dec 26, 2008)

Bhagat ji and forum members,

I just found an Internet radio channel for bhangra. Really terrific at bollywoodboston.com. The direct link to the radio is:

Bollywood Boston! - Bhangra Radio

Scroll down a bit and find the media player and click on the "Play" button. Right below is the play list. Two really good ones are "Darshan" and "Das Ja."

Enjoy!


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## singhbj (Dec 27, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Please read this Shabad

SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

Thanks

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## spnadmin (Dec 28, 2008)

Singhbj ji

In this verse,

audmu krq hovY mnu inrmlu nwcY Awpu invwry ]
   o*u*dham karath h*o*v*ai* man n*i*ramal n*aa*ch*ai* *aa*p n*i*v*aa*r*ae* ||
 _Making the effort, the mind becomes pure; in this dance, the self is silenced.

_The dance is not dancing around --  Guruji starts out with the words, "making the effort" the mind become pure; then Guruji says "in this dance" by which Guruji means "making the effort" to purify the mind. The dance is the dance of the self in meditation by which the self is silenced. 

Later in the shabad Guruji says,

rbwbu pKwvj qwl GuMGrU Anhd sbdu vjwvY ]1] rhwau ]
   rab*aa*b pakh*aa*vaj th*aa*l gh*u*(n)ghar*oo* anehadh sabadh vaj*aa*v*ai* ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
 _He plays upon the guitar, tambourine and cymbals, and the unstruck sound current of the Shabad resounds. ||1||Pause||_

The play upon guitar, tambourine and cymbals leads to sounds that come from strking on instruments. But in this verse it leads to the "unstruck sound current of the Shabad..." So we have metaphors in this Shabad. 

Forum member Surinder Kaur Cheema ji in big blue leters used to say *"Me neech tells me...."* Well, me neech tells me that  Guruji is not talking about making music in the usual sense or dancing in the usual sense.

What does your neech tell you?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 2, 2009)

Gurbani is so powerful that it can overpower...the OX..the Elephant..the Dog...etc inside us and make them not only play music in perfect tune but dance to it as well - the animals mentioned are  anology to our base instincts..kaam krodh lobh moh hankaar etc:happy:


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## spnadmin (Feb 2, 2009)

Gyani ji

You just made a lot of people feel much better now with your reply. :yes: Just don't let me hear you were doing in it gurdwara.


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## kiram (Feb 15, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Singhbj ji
> 
> In this verse,
> 
> ...



Aad ji, loved this explaination  May i ask you which Shabad is this and if you could elaborate on the "Anhad Shabad Vajaavey" once again ji...


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## spnadmin (Feb 15, 2009)

Kiram ji Here is the Shabad

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
aasaa mehalaa 5 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
 

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਚੈ ਆਪੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥ 
oudham karath hovai man niramal naachai aap nivaarae ||
Making the effort, the mind becomes pure; in this dance, the self is silenced.
 

ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਲੇ ਵਸਗਤਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ 
panch janaa lae vasagath raakhai man mehi eaekankaarae ||1||
The five passions are kept under control, and the One Lord dwells in the mind. ||1||
 

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ 
thaeraa jan nirath karae gun gaavai ||
Your humble servant dances and sings Your Glorious Praises.
 

ਰਬਾਬੁ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਤਾਲ ਘੁੰਘਰੂ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
rabaab pakhaavaj thaal ghungharoo anehadh sabadh vajaavai ||1|| rehaao ||
He plays upon the guitar, tambourine and cymbals, and the unstruck sound current of the Shabad resounds. ||1||Pause||
 

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਪਾਛੈ ਅਵਰ ਰੀਝਾਵੈ ॥ 
prathhamae man parabodhhai apanaa paashhai avar reejhaavai ||
First, he instructs his own mind, and then, he leads others.
 

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਸਗਲ ਸੁਨਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
raam naam jap hiradhai jaapai mukh thae sagal sunaavai ||2||
He chants the Lord's Name and meditates on it in his heart; with his mouth, he announces it to all. ||2||
 

v  ਕਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਨ ਪਖਾਰੈ ਸੰਤ ਧੂਰਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਵੈ ॥ 
kar sang saadhhoo charan pakhaarai santh dhhoor than laavai ||
He joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and washes their feet; he applies the dust of the Saints to his body
 

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪਿ ਧਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਸਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ 
man than arap dhharae gur aagai sath padhaarathh paavai ||3||
He surrenders his mind and body, and places them before the Guru; thus, he obtains the true wealth. ||3||
 

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਸੁਨੈ ਪੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਸਰਧਾ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ 
jo jo sunai paekhai laae saradhhaa thaa kaa janam maran dhukh bhaagai ||
Whoever listens to, and beholds the Guru with faith, shall see his pains of birth and death taken away.
 

ਐਸੀ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਨਰਕ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਗੈ ॥੪॥੪॥੪੩॥ 
aisee nirath narak nivaarai naanak guramukh jaagai ||4||4||43||
Such a dance eliminates hell; O Nanak, the Gurmukh remains wakeful. ||4||4||43||


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## spnadmin (Feb 15, 2009)

kiram ji

My best attempt at an explanation of this Shabad is defective compared to what others can say. But I will try. I read the shabad as a blueprint with directions on how to apply our minds and hearts. If my words are too simplistic, that is because I don't usually think that Guruji is being secretive (just every now and then)

The key: Making the effort, the mind becomes pure; in this dance, the self is silenced. 
The goal is to silence the self, we must make the effort to purify the mind. 

Guru Arjan Dev ji is clear about the dance-steps:

1. Sing His PraisesGaavai, 
2. Hear the Shabad resound vajaavai
3. Reflect rehaao
4. Instruct the mind through constant prayer  prathhamae man parabodhhai
 5. Join with sangat and share with others our experience with the Satguru   paashhai avar reejhaavai ||
6. Chant the Lord's name raam naam jap
7.  Contain the Naam within our hearts hiradhai jaapai 
8. Announce the Naam openly so all others can hear it mukh thae sagal sunaavai 
9. Give seva to the Guru through dutiful association with sangat kar sang saadhhoo charan pakhaarai santh dhhoor than laavai ||
10 Surrender mind and body and offer them to Kartar man than arap dhharae gur aagai sath padhaarathh paavai ||3||

So that is the dance that Guru is telling us and this is the result with His Glance of Grace will be

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਸੁਨੈ ਪੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਸਰਧਾ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ 
jo jo sunai paekhai laae saradhhaa thaa kaa janam maran dhukh bhaagai ||
Whoever listens to, and beholds the Guru with faith, shall see his pains of birth and death taken away.

Please correct my errors.


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## kiram (Feb 15, 2009)

Thank you Aad ji, loved the explanation... and the Shabad..
May i please request you to explain the Rahao line ji..  "Anhad Sabad Vajaavey" 
What is the unstruck sound current ji that Guru Ji is talking about...


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## spnadmin (Feb 15, 2009)

kiram ji

I started to respond and the browser kicked me off the thread. Sorry -- but it means that the timing is not right  Let me re-group and get back to you in a little while.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 15, 2009)

Anyone herd of Whirling Dervishes that use dance to get to a higher spiritual plain?


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## spnadmin (Feb 15, 2009)

Randip ji

There is a bunch of information at the start of this thread about that.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 13, 2009)

I dont know about dancing dervishes who do that to "get to a higher plane"...
But I came across these Dancing Khalsas on U-Tube...and they definitely are on a "HIGHER PLANE" already..
Prabhu's Blog: Izzat Da Punjab
YouTube - Bhangra Performance - Izzat da Punjab
YouTube - Bhangra Dance at Friend's Wedding

They are Named Izzat DA Punjab ( which is grammatically wrong but who cares anyway)  Enjoy them as I did...:happy::welcome: These Khalsa have given a new dimension to Bhangra - Clean as a whistle !!:ice:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 13, 2009)

Here is another sterling performance..
YouTube - Bhangra Performance - Chile
YouTube - Bhangra Girls
YouTube - Izzat da Punjab Bhangra performance in Espanola 2008
YouTube - Bhangra Performance - Izzat da Punjab
YouTube - Bhangra dance for Dharma's wedding reception


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 17, 2009)

The question is, are the songs in these videos Gurmat.  Are they in line with Gurbani?

To what I heard they are speaking about worldy desires and attachment to worldly desires.  Doesn't Gurmat say to stay away from these things!


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## pk70 (Mar 17, 2009)

Singh said:


> The question is, are the songs in these videos Gurmat.  Are they in line with Gurbani?
> 
> To what I heard they are speaking about worldy desires and attachment to worldly desires.  Doesn't Gurmat say to stay away from these things!


 *Singh ji*
*All these videos is a display of Punjabi culture, the participants prove how much they can get expert in it to obtain applauding in their favor. It has nothing to do with Gurbani or the name of the thread.*


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 17, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *Singh ji*
> *All these videos is a display of Punjabi culture, the participants prove how much they can get expert in it to obtain applauding in their favor. It has nothing to do with Gurbani or the name of the thread.*


 
Thanks G Singh ji, but another question arises, but has nothing to do with this thread, What is Punjabi Culture?????  What is the point of Punjabi Culture???????  Alot of people claim to be apart of it, but when asked what the point is of Punjabi Culture there is a blank face and a long silence.  For example Sikhi has a culture and this culture has a purpose.


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## pk70 (Mar 17, 2009)

Singh said:


> Thanks G Singh ji, but another question arises, but has nothing to do with this thread, What is Punjabi Culture?????  What is the point of Punjabi Culture???????  Alot of people claim to be apart of it, but when asked what the point is of Punjabi Culture there is a blank face and a long silence.  For example Sikhi has a culture and this culture has a purpose.



*Culture is a face of groups of people who have similar habits, ceremonies and traditions, any thing comes in its way, it runs over including religion. If any member goes against it, he or she is disliked by cultural elite. I had my share in this regard. In Punjab, people are living more culture than the religion.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 17, 2009)

I agree..in Punjab..people are more into culture than sikhi....this is saw first hand at several weddings i attended...the "Marriage Palace" was a whole day affair..of dancce/song/food and liquor...while the REAL WEDDING..the ANAD KARAJ in the Gurdwara was a  very very low key affair with just the family memebers..and that too the ones who wanted to go...the others didnt even know...UNLIKE in malaysia where the Anad karaj in the Gurdawra is the Main event ( at least for the Morning) where the Girls side are all invited......with Path da Bhog/Kirtan/Ardass and guru ka langgar for the entire sangat .....later on evening dinner etc happen outside the Gurdwara..and the Boys side celebrate on their own a day later with either Path da bhog in Gurdawra followed by dinner/dance outside venue...what i am saying is the GURDWARA is involved about 95% compared to the Punjab where it is about 5% !! GURDWARA and 95% Bhnagra /marriage palace food Mela.

2/ Vasakhi is also turning MORE into a cultural thing than a religious celebration..more so in the Diaspora...


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## spnadmin (Mar 17, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *Singh ji*
> *All these videos is a display of Punjabi culture, the participants prove how much they can get expert in it to obtain applauding in their favor. It has nothing to do with Gurbani or the name of the thread.*




The videos actually feature Izzat da Punjab which is a dance troupe of 3HO Sikhs. 3HO has  been gradually introducing aspects of Punjabi culture into the culture of 3HO. And that is because they consider Punjab to be their spiritual homeland and want to integrate Punjabi cultural experience with their own. To be fair -- many of the current generation of 3HO have studied at Miri Piri Academy in India and lived in India where the food, music, dance, fashion and language were constantly around them. So bhangra was never left behind.

Also interesting is that in the diaspora, bhangra is very popular. All you need to do is google "bhagnra contest" and you will see that there are dozens of North American bhangra teams, typicaly  made up of college students who compete with other college teams.


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 19, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> The videos actually feature Izzat da Punjab which is a dance troupe of 3HO Sikhs. 3HO has been gradually introducing aspects of Punjabi culture into the culture of 3HO. And that is because they consider Punjab to be their spiritual homeland and want to integrate Punjabi cultural experience with their own. To be fair -- many of the current generation of 3HO have studied at Miri Piri Academy in India and lived in India where the food, music, dance, fashion and language were constantly around them. So bhangra was never left behind.
> 
> Also interesting is that in the diaspora, bhangra is very popular. All you need to do is google "bhangra contest" and you will see that there are dozens of North American bhangra teams, typicaly made up of college student who compete with other college teams.


 
Aad ji alcohol also is very popular not just with punjabi culture, but majority of the world.  There are also alcohol drinking competitions in punjabi culture.


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## spnadmin (Mar 19, 2009)

Siingh ji

That of course would leave me cold/out in the wilderness so to speak. Because I don't drink. Gives me a headache.


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## sadhu (Mar 19, 2009)

*What is wrong in dancing?*


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## spnadmin (Mar 19, 2009)

Sahdu ji

Nothing is wrong with dancing.   The thread used to be in Gurmat Vichaar under the title Dancing to Gurbani. It was moved to interfaith dialog section on purpose so that it would be possible to compare different faiths -- some have dancing as part of their devotion and others do not. Read the entire thread -- if you have time -- there are some very good posts and conversatons, videos too. You will find it very enjoyable and relaxing.  Some of these even made me want to dance. So I did.


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## spnadmin (Mar 21, 2009)

*My Favorite Sikh Bureaucrat*

 								                            March 19th, 2009                     	 	  by 	  Reema	 	                    	 	  Source: 	  thelangarhall.com




Harpal Singh Kapoor, Director of Miami-Dade Transit, must be the coolest bureacrat in all of Florida.  At a recent office party he not only showed off some mad bhangra skills, he taught his non-Punjabi colleagues some skills too, to the beat of a live dhol.




YouTube - Harpal Kapoor and his Bhanga Skill

​ 
I know there are some purists in the audience who think that bhangra might not be a good way to promote relations with Sikhs because it’s Punjabi culture, not Sikh, etc. … but I disagree.

Music and dance are a universal language.  Kapoor probably already knows his office staff, and so he’s not a stranger to them, but unless they do bhangra in the office, they probably don’t get a chance to connect across the conference table like you can in response to the beat of a dhol.  Connecting on that most basic human level, in response to music, reminds people that underneath our exteriors we’re all the same.  And if they DO do bhangra in the office, then I’m moving to Florida to join their staff.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 23, 2009)

I would too IF I could...and who says you "have" to drink alcohol to bhangra..?? I DONT touch the stuff.Never have and never will. The "kick" I get out of Gurbani is enough to make me fly all day long..and night too...:happy::welcome::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice:


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## spnadmin (Apr 2, 2009)

Gyani ji

There is a video on YouTube called Learn to Bhangra in 7 Days -- taught by a Babay  -- and it is actually good exercise if you don't over do it.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 2, 2009)

Doesn't Kirtan make us dance from the inside?

Let us boogie within with the melodies of Gurbani.

Balei .... Balei.....

Tejwant Singh


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## susan (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't think there is any harm in dancing to Keertan. Just the fact that the hymns of our Guru's make you feel so alive is  amazing. When the vibrations of Keertan reach my inner being I find my self swaying side to side and singing along :ice:. As of yet I don't seem to have offended anyone. Everyone has their own relationship with God.Some take it very serious and some just let it be. Whatever it is must come natural and musn't be critisized. I believe encouragement and praise are very important when it comes to practicing any religion. Not dancing to Keertan won't make you understand it any better nor will it make the Almighty unhappy.The fact that you are listening and understanding is what matters,and that makes the Almighty happy.


Just my thoughts.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 2, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Doesn't Kirtan make us dance from the inside?
> 
> Let us boogie within with the melodies of Gurbani.
> 
> ...


Some people let it spread to their outsides! :yes: waheguru ...  waheguru ...


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## spnadmin (Apr 2, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Doesn't Kirtan make us dance from the inside?
> 
> Let us boogie within with the melodies of Gurbani.
> 
> ...



Please don't do it in gurdwara


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 2, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Please don't do it in gurdwara


 
Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

Booging within is the essence of the melody of the Kirtan being sung. We all do it anywhere it is being sung.:meditation:

Tejwant


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## spnadmin (Apr 2, 2009)

But no without -- Tejwantji -- not in gurdwara. :crazy: Disruptive influence -- or is that old-fashioned? :shock:


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 2, 2009)

I guess that's a cultural thing, like not wearing a miniskirt to the gurudwara.


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## spnadmin (Apr 2, 2009)

I guess so....


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 3, 2009)

I have recently discovered that the Aarti makes me bounce up and down in my chair more than anything else. 
look up Aarti by Bhai Amir Singh after clearing up the meaning with a translation , perhaps, and watch both your mind and body take flight. :yes:

[Actually, any artist will do...]


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 3, 2009)

susan said:


> > I don't think there is any harm in dancing to Keertan. Just the fact that the hymns of our Guru's make you feel so alive is amazing. When the vibrations of Keertan reach my inner being I find my self swaying side to side and singing along :ice:. As of yet I don't seem to have offended anyone. Everyone has their own relationship with God.Some take it very serious and some just let it be. Whatever it is must come natural and musn't be critisized. I believe encouragement and praise are very important when it comes to practicing any religion. Not dancing to Keertan won't make you understand it any better nor will it make the Almighty unhappy.The fact that you are listening and understanding is what matters,and that makes the Almighty happy.
> >
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> ...


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## kiram (Apr 3, 2009)

"When Guru Sahib speaks of dancing with the shabad, he is saying be attuned to the shabad and become one with the shabad. He is saying live in the shabad with every breath. Contemplating over the shabad and detaching yourself from this physical body in the shabad is the True dance. " - Singh ji


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 3, 2009)

Singh said:


> By this notion Guru Sahib must have been phyiscally dancing every time Bhai Mardana played, kirtan. Guru Sahibs were full of kirtan and if keertan makes you dance that would mean Guru Sahib were doing Bhangra 24/7.


Well, the problem with some people is that when they hear the word dance they think of Bhangra or something. If they read the first post, I have clearly mentioned that dance could be any type of body movement. 
By distorting that meaning they make their point, why not make the point without distorting the meaning?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 3, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Well, the problem with some people is that when they hear the word dance they think of Bhangra or something. If they read the first post, I have clearly mentioned that dance could be any type of body movement.
> By distorting that meaning they make their point, why not make the point without distorting the meaning?


 
Your meaning is meaningless, because I go with Gurbani


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## spnadmin (Apr 3, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I have recently discovered that the Aarti makes me bounce up and down in my chair more than anything else.
> look up Aarti by Bhai Amir Singh after clearing up the meaning with a translation , perhaps, and watch both your mind and body take flight. :yes:
> 
> [Actually, any artist will do...]



Bhagat ji

Does the shabad ever calm you down? :meditation: Make you feel as if you are drifting on the currents of a stream? :meditation:Induce your eyes to close slightly and have your mind wander in and out of thought, carefree within?   :meditation:

That is the feeling of bliss.:meditation: _Such a cozy feeling!  _:meditation: _Do you think that dancing would ruin it? I do think it would. I am a little deprived when the kirtanis complete a raag, or when the hukamnama ends._ The stillness of body and spirit is a break from the rat-race, from all the noise and rumpus of the world. :meditation:


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 3, 2009)

Our organs dance 24-7. That is called the dance of life. If they stopped dancing then it would be all over. 

Sayonara,adeus, Adios, Tchau. 

And when they get attuned with Gurbani Keertan then they jump with all the gleefulness and joy. This is called the soul dance.

Tejwant Singh


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## susan (Apr 3, 2009)

Singh said:


> susan said:
> 
> 
> > By this notion Guru Sahib must have been phyiscally dancing every time Bhai Mardana played, kirtan. Guru Sahibs were full of kirtan and if keertan makes you dance that would mean Guru Sahib were doing Bhangra 24/7.
> ...


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## kiram (Apr 3, 2009)

_ "I am a little deprived when the kirtanis complete a raag, or when the hukamnama ends." - Aad ji

That was really sweet 




_


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

susan said:


> Singh said:
> 
> 
> > But like I stated before one must not discourage another.
> ...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

> Your meaning is meaningless, because I go with Gurbani


WOW! I bow down to your logic. Too bad I cannot bo DOWN enough to it.

Your conclusion does not follow the premise. Try again. Does gurbani say that movement of body is always bhangra? I think not.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> Does the shabad ever calm you down? :meditation: Make you feel as if you are drifting on the currents of a stream? :meditation:Induce your eyes to close slightly and have your mind wander in and out of thought, carefree within? :meditation:
> 
> That is the feeling of bliss.:meditation: _Such a cozy feeling! _:meditation: _Do you think that dancing would ruin it? I do think it would. I am a little deprived when the kirtanis complete a raag, or when the hukamnama ends._ The stillness of body and spirit is a break from the rat-race, from all the noise and rumpus of the world. :meditation:


I go into a state of euphoria when ever I contemplate about it (Aarti). My mind becomes to happy that its hard not jumping for joy after receiving this treasure! And when its coupled with a beautiful composition, it just gets better and better.

Aad ji explain me your steps for meditation, I will try them.

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
माझ महला ३ ॥
Mājẖ mėhlā 3.
Maajh, Third Mehl:
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਆਪੇ ॥
गुरमुखि मिलै मिलाए आपे ॥
Gurmukẖ milai milā▫e āpe.
The Gurmukhs meet the Lord, and inspire others to meet Him as well.
ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਜੋਹੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੇ ॥
कालु न जोहै दुखु न संतापे ॥
Kāl na johai ḏukẖ na sanṯāpe.
Death does not see them, and pain does not afflict them.
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਸਭ ਤੋੜੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥
हउमै मारि बंधन सभ तोड़ै गुरमुखि सबदि सुहावणिआ ॥१॥
Ha▫umai mār banḏẖan sabẖ ṯoṛai gurmukẖ sabaḏ suhāvaṇi▫ā. ||1||
Subduing egotism, they break all their bonds; as Gurmukh, they are adorned with the Word of the Shabad. ||1||
ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥
हउ वारी जीउ वारी हरि हरि नामि सुहावणिआ ॥
Ha▫o vārī jī▫o vārī har har nām suhāvaṇi▫ā.
I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who look beautiful in the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.
*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ **ਗਾਵੈ **ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ **ਨਾਚੈ **ਹਰਿ **ਸੇਤੀ **ਚਿਤੁ **ਲਾਵਣਿਆ **॥੧॥ **ਰਹਾਉ **॥*
*गुरमुखि गावै गुरमुखि नाचै हरि सेती चितु लावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥*
*Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har seṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.*
*The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||*


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

susan said:


> I have my own way of enjoying Gurbani and you have yours. Neither of which is wrong.


 
ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਜਿਉ ਸ੍ਵਾਗੀ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ॥
नाना रूप जिउ स्वागी दिखावै ॥
Nānā rūp ji▫o savāgī ḏikẖāvai.
In various costumes, like actors, they appear.
ਜਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਨਚਾਵੈ ॥
जिउ प्रभ भावै तिवै नचावै ॥
Ji▫o parabẖ bẖāvai ṯivai nacẖāvai.
As it pleases God, they dance.
*ਜੋ **ਤਿਸੁ **ਭਾਵੈ **ਸੋਈ **ਹੋਇ **॥*
*जो तिसु भावै सोई होइ ॥
Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī ho▫e.
Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass.*
ਨਾਨਕ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੭॥
नानक दूजा अवरु न कोइ ॥७॥
Nānak ḏūjā avar na ko▫e. ||7||
O Nanak, there is no other at all. ||7||

Would we still be dancing if it had not pleased Him?


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Good point -- but we are n't dancing in gurdwara. So that must please Him too! What do you say?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> WOW! I bow down to your logic. Too bad I cannot bo DOWN enough to it.


 
Any person that considers Gurbani the *highest *authority will agree with me your definition of dancing is useless in this discussion.



> Your conclusion does not follow the premise. Try again. Does gurbani say that movement of body is always bhangra? I think not.


 

This doesn't follow:

To get up and physically start dancing to kirtan is not gurmat. If it was then Guru Sahibs would have done it themselves when kirtan was playing.

If someone does dance to kirtan then its an act showing I am attached to the sound of the instrument and the Gurbani that is being sung, which puts you in a relaxed state where you don't dance, i am not fully aware of being sung. Once your fully aware of the shabad the dancing will stop and you'll feel the raas from the shabad. The rass of a shabad sung in kirtan *never* made the *Guru Sahibs* *dance* and they had *raas from the shabad, which is unexplainable.*

_The reasons make perfect sense, its acceptance of the conclusion you can't grasp._


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਜਿਉ ਸ੍ਵਾਗੀ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ॥
> नाना रूप जिउ स्वागी दिखावै ॥
> Nānā rūp ji▫o savāgī ḏikẖāvai.
> In various costumes, like actors, they appear.
> ...


 
Here Guru Sahib is not talking about the physical act of dancing. The word dance is used as a metaphor here.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I go into a state of euphoria when ever I contemplate about it (Aarti). My mind becomes to happy that its hard not jumping for joy after receiving this treasure! And when its coupled with a beautiful composition, it just gets better and better.
> 
> Aad ji explain me your steps for meditation, I will try them.
> 
> ...


 
Guru Sahib is not talking about the physical act of dance here. Dance is used as a metaphor.


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Forum guidelines require me to note: Another good thread is going around in circles as the same ideas are repeated over and over again. Later I will check and start a new direction if another member has not already done so by then. Maybe that will help. Otherwise the thread will be closed as it is going downhill at this point.


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## susan (Apr 4, 2009)

I am open to advice. Singh Ji next time I listen to Keertan i will try to listen beyond the instruments,to see if i feel that level of bliss as you have described.
Thank you.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

Aad ji I dont think the thread is going in circles. In fact, the last Hair/Baal thread wasn't either.

Singh ji you have failed to show how thats a metaphor. Simply stating something is a metaphor is not going to help. If it really IS is a metaphor what is it being compared to?
I could say the same for meditation, that meditation is also a metaphor.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Aad ji I dont think the thread is going in circles. In fact, the last Hair/Baal thread wasn't either.
> 
> Singh ji you have failed to show how thats a metaphor. Simply stating something is a metaphor is going to help. If it really IS is a metaphor what is it being compared to?
> I could say the same for meditation, that meditation is also a metaphor.


 
Look you presented the shabds so go into detail what they are saying.  If I had presented the shabds, which I wouldn't have, but if I did I would go into detail what they mean.  

So start sharing your understanding on the shabds.  It's on you to explain since you presented them.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

Question ofr MODS:
Um, Aad ji why is Singh ji never warned for using arguments against the person?



Singh said:


> Any person that considers Gurbani the *highest *authority will agree with me your definition of dancing is useless in this discussion.


Buddy, the whole discussion is based on my definition! Who started the thread again?





> To get up and physically start dancing to kirtan is not gurmat. If it was then Guru Sahibs would have done it themselves when kirtan was playing.


There could be other reasons why they never did such a thing. maybe they did not prefer to dance. Noone is saying its gurmat, not everything we know is gurmat. But its not AGAINST the teachings of Guru Sahibs. If it was then we would raise doubt.
For example, painting can be considered a form of meditation, yet its NOT gurmat. It does the exact samething as kirtan, it relaxes you.



> If someone does dance to kirtan then its an act showing I am attached to the sound of the instrument and the Gurbani that is being sung,


Um how about dancing aftering reading Gurbani? Am I showing attachment to the computer screen or the words? or the internet on which the gurbani is desplayed on?
If someone dances to kirtan they could be enjoying the gurbani. They could very well be enjoying the music as well, what's the problem in that? 
So attachment to "sound of instrument" is bad? How about attachment to "words in SGGS"?




> which puts you in a relaxed state where you don't dance,


No it doesn't necessarily have to. If something makes you feel extremely happy instead of relaxed, you WILL jump up and down!



> The rass of a shabad sung in kirtan *never* made the *Guru Sahibs* *dance* and they had *raas from the shabad, which is unexplainable.*


Perhaps they were singing the shabad themselves.
So if this raas is UNEXPLAINABLE and then who knows how you could behave in its presence. It never made Guru Sahib dance but if itmakes other people do so, what is the problem in that?
Perhaps they experienced a diferent rass.

_



The reasons make perfect sense, its acceptance of the conclusion you can't grasp

Click to expand...

_i was talking about what you had said earlier. If you have difficulty following someone's post then its OK to ask for clarification.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

Singh said:


> Look you presented the shabds so go into detail what they are saying. If I had presented the shabds, which I wouldn't have, but if I did I would go into detail what they mean.
> 
> So start sharing your understanding on the shabds. It's on you to explain since you presented them.


 *ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ **ਗਾਵੈ **ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ **ਨਾਚੈ **ਹਰਿ **ਸੇਤੀ **ਚਿਤੁ **ਲਾਵਣਿਆ **॥੧॥ **ਰਹਾਉ **॥*
*गुरमुखि गावै गुरमुखि नाचै हरि सेती चितु लावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥*
*Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har seṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.*
*The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||*

That is self explanatory.  They sing, dance and meditate.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 4, 2009)

Bhagt Singh Ji,

Imho the "dancing" is a metaphor...As in..The Obama Secretary of State "dances" to the Bush Tune !!
Wrapping one around ones little finger....control..make one dance as in a puppet show..its the pupeteer..the CREATOR holding the strings...Mrs Obama may have her hubby wrapped around her little finger and he may be "dancing" to her tune....ITS NOT PHYSICAL.

Imho i dont see any need to "compare".... the dancing is simply "OBEYING" and it is like "running" our lives...we are not physically "running" like using our legs to push aginst the ground..and up and down motion...the BODY can be seated still..but our LIFE can still be "RUNNING"/RUN By someone else..here by the CREATOR..the pupeteer..the Maker..the Big Boss ....

I agree with you....this and the other thread on hair are NOT going round in circles....its some contributors who are chasing their tails..afraid of "losing" the final AAAhaha moment. Its ok..its human nature...each one wants to have the "LAST WORD"...some more than others....so once they have said their piece...they write..OK Ji..LETS CLOSE THIS THREAD ( meaning I Have nothing more to say/add !!)..but this world..its knowledge..is like a circle..no beginning..no end....So and So may have exhausted his/her resources..but a new day brings the same sun..but not necessarily the same sunshine...i hope i am making sense ???

It  also begins to look that way because, we as the "REGULARS"...see the same arguments day in and day out...it begins to look like circles..BUT..we forget that the very nature of such Forums as SPN..where no one really knows who may suddenly wake up...and hit a bright spark..all of a sudden...and set the fireworks going again....all just when all the regulars were yawning away..and preparing to mutter Good Night everyone... The SHOW must go on..and it really does..in spite of us and despite us...

Cordially:happy:


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

SO in that sentence if dance is a metaphor, is singing and meditating also a metaphor?


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2009)

> "Imho i dont see any need to "compare".... the dancing is simply "OBEYING" and it is like "running" our lives...we are not physically "running" like using our legs to push aginst the ground..and up and down motion...the BODY can be seated still..but our LIFE can still be "RUNNING"/RUN By someone else..here by the CREATOR..the pupeteer..the Maker..the Big Boss ...."


Jarnail Singh ji (in addition ot reply above)
A metapor is a comparison.
"She is a princess."
meaning she is being compared to a princess.

When gurbani says Gurmukhs sing, dance and meditate, what is that being compared to?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 4, 2009)

The Gurmukhs...Gaveh."SING"...His praises..means they FOLLOW Him....
Just like to "Sing the praises of Sonia Gandhi among her partymembers woudl be actions that she wants/desires followed".....
In this case Gurmukhs...follow the HUKM of the Creator...ar happy no matter what...
Gurmukh Nacheh.."Dance"..... again the same thing..they Dance to the Creator's Tune...His HUKM is Paramount....in their Lives...
Har seti CHIT lavanniah...to be absorbed in HIS "presence"..His HUKM..His WAY..
THIS is the PRACTICAL MARYADA GURBANI REHIT teaches us....
NO Physical singing/dancing/ may be necessary...but it certainly entails "MOULDING our DAILY LIVES AND ACTIONS"..according to His HUKM...imho thats when we sing his praises..dance to his tune..and think/dwell upon Him.
:welcome:


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The Gurmukhs...Gaveh."SING"...His praises..means they FOLLOW Him....
> Just like to "Sing the praises of Sonia Gandhi among her partymembers woudl be actions that she wants/desires followed".....
> In this case Gurmukhs...follow the HUKM of the Creator...ar happy no matter what...
> Gurmukh Nacheh.."Dance"..... again the same thing..they Dance to the Creator's Tune...His HUKM is Paramount....in their Lives...
> ...



I never thought of it that way.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Question ofr MODS:
> Um, Aad ji why is Singh ji never warned for using arguments against the person?
> 
> 
> Buddy, the whole discussion is based on my definition! Who started the thread again?


 
Your fighting a lost battle. Any Sikh knows Gurbani is *highest authority.*







> There could be other reasons why they never did such a thing. maybe they did not prefer to dance.


 

What are the other reason(s)? And why didn’t they prefer to dance?



> Noone is saying its gurmat, not everything we know is gurmat.


 

Let’s change the we to a you. Don’t include others. 




> But its not AGAINST the teachings of Guru Sahibs.


 

Sure it is, dancing to gurbani is not inline with Guru Sahibs teaching.



> If it was then we would raise doubt.


 
Once again with the ‘we’, it’s only you sir, And I know you would have doubts, its obvious coming from you.



> For example, painting can be considered a form of meditation, yet its NOT gurmat. It does the exact samething as kirtan, it relaxes you.


 
How is painting not gurmat? And to say that steel does the same thing as a pricless diamond (kirtan) is one of the worst examples. Kirtan gets you to God as it’s the Shabad Guru and painting is to express the 'I' with limited success. Painting is man made, kirtan is the Lords praises you can’t compare the two.





> Um how about dancing aftering reading Gurbani?


 

Then its reading Gurbani without understanding.




> Am I showing attachment to the computer screen or the words? or the internet on which the gurbani is desplayed on?


Your really confused here, The key word here to figure it out for you is AFTER. Also if you want to disrespect Gurbani, go right ahead, you have done it before by calling it maya.




> If someone dances to kirtan they could be enjoying the gurbani. They could very well be enjoying the music as well, what's the problem in that?


Gurbani doesn’t make someone dance. And its not gurmat. Only a Manmat will dance to Gurbani.



> So attachment to "sound of instrument" is bad? How about attachment to "words in SGGS"?


 
The answer lies in the question. Its called Attachment. One of the five thieves.



> How about attachment to "words in SGGS"?


 
Attachment to the Shabad Guru is good because this will get you to God. The shabad Guru is eternal. The sound of an intrument is worldly and finite




> No it doesn't necessarily have to. If something makes you feel extremely happy instead of relaxed, you WILL jump up and down!


 
Gurbani helps a person control the mind. An action of jumping for joy when your happy and crying when your feeling sad is an emotional outburst where you are controlled by worldly events. Gurbani once read with full concentration helps to balance these emotions. Once balanced happiness and sadness are seen one and the same. Dancing is an action of joy and no control over the emotions. Gurbani helps to control this so it would be really foolish to say Gurbani can promote it.





> Perhaps they were singing the shabad themselves.


 
If they were singing the shabd then they could have still danced. Or are you saying Guru Sahibs couldn’t do two things at once. 





> So if this raas is UNEXPLAINABLE and then who knows how you could behave in its presence. It never made Guru Sahib dance but if itmakes other people do so, what is the problem in that?


 
Guru Sahib had the most raas, which is unexplainable and this bring us back to what Gurbani does, it helps control the mind, where balance is brought into your body and mind, self-control. 




> Perhaps they experienced a diferent rass.


 
They read Gurbani and we read the same Gurbani, you get the same results.





> i was talking about what you had said earlier. If you have difficulty following someone's post then its OK to ask for clarification.


 
It’s on you to clarify from the beginning, but you didn’t. There was no indication to which post you were referring too. There was no difficulty following the post as I just said you showed no indication so I went on one of the post I just wrote. Next time make it clear.


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Singh ji

You are in part correct to call this to our attention. When a person starts a thread, they don't own it and do have to address concerns and objections raised by other members.

The part that can't be discussed -- If Bhagat ji received warnings or infractions, we couldn't say so publicly or privately for that matter. If Bhagat ji has been warned on a thread, then there would be a record of that on the thread.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 5, 2009)

GURBANI  ..INSPIRES ME....  MAKES ME..  WANT TO...DANCE...TO THE TUNE OF THE CREATOR..
MAKE PURPOSEFUL CHANGES TO MY DAILY LIFE...LIVE MY LIFE....DANCE THROUGH LIFE....ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF THE CREATOR..HIS HUKM...HIS WILL...HASDEHN KHELDEAHN...MEIN TERE DWAREH AIYAH....:welcome::happy:


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

_Quote:
                                  do have to address concerns and objections raised by other members.                         
Didn't you just say the members havne the right to answer questions if they want in the Mcleod thread?  Now your saying the people who starts the thread has to, which is it? I'm getting a snobby attitude from this remark aswell._ (Singh ji)

You are correct Singh ji -- I am being inconsistent. So for the record, Bhagat ji would not have to answer any questions if he does not want to. Thanks for pointing out my error.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 13, 2009)

Gurbani Shabads are meant to make us dance  from the within. Inner dancing   means awakening ourselves from the inside so that we can understand the meanings of Gurbani, put them into practice and then share with others.

I belong to the disco era.  There are many venues for the outer dancing with the help of Bhangra music. Bale, bale... shava, shava.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 13, 2009)

Gurmit Kaur said:


> I believe it is wrong to dance to kirtan,  the Gurus wanted to separate us from Hindus were dancing in temples was permitted and part of the religion, we are not Hindus. Shabads have a different role to play in Sikhi,  they heal the mind and body, originally,  the raags were designed to create certain mind sets for example in the morning they were designed to uplift us and in the evening to wind down.
> 
> But with modern dancing music being played by ragis to holy shabad it is no wonder people want to dance.  I went to the 3HO European Yoga Festival this year and Yogi Bhajan in his video lecture told people to dance to a shabad,  I simply walked out, as I have been brought up as a Sikh we do not dance to shabads.
> 
> I do respect the complete devotion of the people at the festival.  But we should try and support and learn the original raags,  it would only be to our advantage.




Gurmit Kaur ji

I had a similar experience, in a different venue, but very similar nonetheless. It was very upsetting and I had to really reflect hard on my reaction. What I did was shut my eyes and meditate until it stopped and the program moved on. After that I said -- no more yoga festivals for me. It sounds intolerant of me I know, but the words of the raags and the ideas behind them, the music -- that is for moving out of our mundane world and into another place. My opinion only of course. I agree with you.


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## Admin (Aug 24, 2012)

Is Dancing Bad?      - YouTube


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## Ishna (Aug 24, 2012)

Waheguru!  Guruka Singh ji's comments about intent and knowing what you're doing are very pertinent.  His description of the universe dancing is one of those 'obvious but never thought of it that way' kind of statements.  Thanks for sharing.


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