# Ardaas Changed



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 21, 2009)

AT the main Gurdwara in FINLAND's Capital City, the Parbhandak Committee has taken a revolutionary step...along the lines of what I see as what Martin Luther did in the 16th century that led to the Protestant Church coming into existence and challenged the Catholic Church and its Pope.

What the Gurdwara Sangat has done in unanimous decision is to change the First line of the Ardass..from  Pritham Bhaugauti simar ke..to  Pritham AKAL PURAKH SIMAR KE..
Secondly they have ADDED the mention of the 35 BHAGATS whose GURBANI is in the SGGS after the Mention of Char sahibzadehs, and also the Concluidng Dohra has been restored to its original - Panth Khalsa janio Pargat guraan ke DEH, Jo Prabh ko mil bo chaheh KHOJ shabad meh leh.

Another far reaching decision is not to use any bani from dsm Granth in the Gurdwara - ONLY GURBANI from SGGS.

1. Will this GURDWARA/Committee/SANGAT be "excommunicated"....as Bhai Kala Afghana was ??

2. Will this begin an avalanche of such....as the SGPC and Takhat jathedars have steadfastly REFUSED to handle and discuss this sensitive subject for so long...this could be the First..as was Martin Luther in the 15th Century..who eventualy led to the SCHISM of Protestant Church Breakaway from the catholics and its Pope/vatican/ papal hierachy ( read SGPC/Takhat jathedars in ref to Sikhism). I feel its a "disaster" just waiting to happen if the SGPC/Jathedars continue to SLEEP.


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## ranghi29 (May 21, 2009)

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OMG!!!! {censored} is wrong with people. They are making Sikhi a joke now days. Some serious steps need to be taken to stop this, its Ardas now next it might be our history .


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## aspadda (May 22, 2009)

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The Committee has taken the wrong step in doing something like this without consulting the Akal Takht and the Panth. A decision like this should be an informed one. There are many issues already in the panth that have not been resolved - this will just add too all the mayhem in the panth already, and has done the Sikhs Panth no favours at all. Im very disappointed.


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## surajcap (May 22, 2009)

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Shame on them that they cut name of Sridevi Bhagawati Durga with Akal Purakh (Kal Purush Mahadev) against the Gurbani of Great Gurus of Sikh sect and Guru Granth Sahib!

These shows a total anti-feminine atiitude of the members there as it is only Dharmic Bharatiya Religion such as Buddhism (Devi Tara & Abolokiteswar Shiva), Jainism, Hinduism, etc where feminine characteristic is attributed to GOD!

It is only this Indian tradition where many even outside Sanatan Hinduism accept whole universe as one, same and equal to God - Advaita Vedanta! This Pantheism was also found amoung Islamic Sufis and some Christian sects but mainstream Islam or Pope don't accept that and it seems that these Christianised Sikhs have dumped their ancestors, totally to please their majority host population of Finland!


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## NALWA (May 22, 2009)

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Ranghi29.
Kindly donot use {censored}.We hear enough of it every here else. Just a thought.


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## HARTEJ KOUR (May 22, 2009)

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this change in Ardas is made for the good and i dont think there is anything debatable on this..


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## pali67 (May 22, 2009)

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it is very bad. if sangat wants change, the order of sri akal takhat sahib ji is final:}--}:


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## Rupinder.Singh (May 22, 2009)

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In my opinion..Nothing has been done wrong...

We all know this has been a long standing issue around panth but SGPC has been ignoring it for a long time only from the fear that it is a sensitive topic.
But they have neither done anything to educate the society for the need of change nor they have tried to do anything. Topics are sensitive only to the point they are misunderstood. Misunderstanding does not go away without dealing with the topic.

As some one said "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance"

They(SGPC) have been ignoring this issue. 

The approach taken by Finland Gurudwara may or may not be right..I don't know..But the cause for taking this step is right.

And I dont think it is anything about showing anti-faminine attitude at all..but It is about extending the theme of Guru Granth Sahb into Ardaas. Sikhs are never told to worship idols..they are only told to worship The True God. And Akal Purkh could not be translated as Kal Purush Mahadev as the very starting lines of Guru Granth sahb explain "Karta Purkh" as formless. It is just a way to address GOD. True Sikhs have due respect for females and will continue to do so.

"Sou kyo Manda Aakhiye ,,Jit Janme Rajjan"

The other thing as said by "aspadda" decisions like this should be informed. Sudden Changes are never accepted easily because they lack communication to mass. 
I would say "Kise nave Kapde nu Paun ton pehlan.. Sikhna painda ai k pauna kiven ai" or "to wear a new suit on..everyone needs to learn how to put it on "

But now the suit is there some will wear it and some won't


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## gurus_princess (May 22, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*

Thank you, Gyani Jarnail Singh, for presenting this news. 

Honestly, do these people believe they are more intelligent than those hundreds of brilliant minds that composed the Ardaas and 'cemented' the wordings of Ardas? Do they believe they are more intelligent or more powerful than Guru Gobind Singh himself, to change the wordings? All I wish to add here is -  _there are people in this world who change themselves to suit the religion and there are others who change the religion to suit themselves._

From my understanding, this is simply one of the many ways in which Khalsa is not remaning as one anymore (or remaining for that matter). Why are people concentrating on changing what has been set and approved by the Gurus and has been existent for hundreds of years? That too, on such specific details? The basic essence of Sikhism is slowly diminishing amongst the people as events such as this one (changing Ardaas) is. Why make life complicated when Sikhism has made it so simple.

On the topic of the Dasam Granth, there is much debate on this issue already. To my understanding, Guru Gobind Singh Ji told the Sikhs that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our one and only Guru, noone and nothing else. Indivdual opinions will differ and many questions arise - I leave it to the individual to decide.

God willing, this issue will be righfully resolved in the correct manner and that it doesn't cause a chain of such events.

I do not intend to insult anyone with my comments. Please forgive my young and learning mind.


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## Rajwinder (May 22, 2009)

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Either they believe that what our Gurus created was old and needs to be changed .. but if that that is the case then no big deal tommorow they will say that Guru Granth sahib is not appropriate we should review it. Let me give these stupids a call.


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## billmamak (May 22, 2009)

1.Ardas is not Gurbani. 
2.Ardas is not a Mantra if not said in a particular manner or with some additons or subtractions, it will result in catastrophe.
3. When any religion gets cramped by rituals then it seizes to be a liberating force that it is meant to be.
Anybody can argue for any number of hours on what is right or wrong.  I Can argue endlessly on the importance of not changing the words of the ardas. But then I will be loosing on the essence of sikh religion. Remember Ardas is just a prayer. Say it in any manner and any language and anywhere. To whom it is addressed will understand and accept.


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## mahan singh (May 22, 2009)

*NOTHING* can be changed from PRITHAM BHAUGAUTI SIMAR KE, UPTO, TEG BAHADUR SIMAR KE, GHAR NAUNITDH AAVEH THAE. These words of the Ardas ARE wtitten by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji & ARE ecthed in stone. Beyond this, any changes are merely debateable.

Bhaugauti means  SHAKTI, it is the Akal Purakh !!!!  So why change something that means the same thing. It makes NO sense. We should be dwelling on the shabad INSTEAD  of trying to change it to our own benefits. 
Ardass is an important part of Gurbani.
Guru Fateh.


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## fauja (May 22, 2009)

sounds like the first change - from Bagauti to Akal Purkh - stems from a bit of hinduphobia... Guru Sahib wrote Bagauti, no need to change this part... all this hindu phobia is misplaced anyway as it all stems from Britain's and the BJP's divide and conquer attitude that has become so engrained in the culture now.  there is no Hindu, there is no Musalman [there is no Sikh].  Aside from the first part, The rest of the ardas should not be and has never been standardized.  The most important thing is that the Guru's Bani MUST NEVER BE CHANGED!!!!  The mention of the Bhagats is a nice idea to keep their memory alive; after all we also bow to them.


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## gurvinder_janu (May 22, 2009)

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Rajwinder said:


> Either they believe that what our Gurus created was old and needs to be changed .. but if that that is the case then no big deal tommorow they will say that Guru Granth sahib is not appropriate we should review it. Let me give these stupids a call.


 
 They think themselves to be above Guru Ji??????????

Bhul chuk lai maafi ji


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 22, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*

Dear All,

IMHO prayer and its words can be individualized but have a question from where did 35 Bhagats came; where as a breakdown of the 5,867 hymns found in the Guru Granth Sahib; include the writings of 6 Gurus, 15 Bhagats (of different faiths), 3 Sikh Bards, 8-17 Bhatts, and Raag Mala?

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (May 22, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*



Rajwinder said:


> Either they believe that what our Gurus created was old and needs to be changed .. but if that that is the case then no big deal tommorow they will say that Guru Granth sahib is not appropriate we should review it. Let me give these stupids a call.




Rajwinder ji

You are calling attention to the problem of where to draw the line. Once one change is justified, then another can be explained, and then another one, and another one....;until the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj itself become the target of modification and change -- and we know that there are political interests already to zoom in on that too. So thanks for making this point incisively.  

But here is what my sneaking suspicion is about this situation. Finland is an isolated country in a lot of ways. The Internet and air travel connect us all that is true. But there is a kind of "insularity" in Finnish culture. To do it alone, to go it alone, to survive against odds, to be self-directed and like that. Changes to Ardaas are not unthinkable, but changes in any aspect of Sikh devotion have historically taken time and taken place through collective nternational discussion among sangats and scholars -- in order to insure that there is the benefit of collective wisdom. 

So why did the Finns take off like this. My hypothesis is that some political interests crept into the sangat, that more traditional minds and voices were somehow silenced (I don't know how or why), and that the perplexed sangat did not know how to find or seek the help and advice of other sangats because of what I said above. Do it alone, go it alone, survive against odds, fix it -- and don't look outside for help. 

Amazing and it will surely have a big ripple, no wave, perhaps tsunami effect in weeks to come.


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## dalsingh (May 22, 2009)

> Honestly, do these people believe they are more intelligent than those hundreds of brilliant minds that composed the Ardaas and 'cemented' the wordings of Ardas?


 
Fo the record, people should also bear in mind that the contents of ardas has changed before, as recently as after partition. 

I find it strange that bhagauti is removed though. I know people can use that term to refer to Chandhi but it can also mean sword. 

The term Ardas stems from a Persian term which essentially means a petition before a sovereign. 

It has always evolved over time. But it should be changed with a collective will, so it reflects the wishes of the sarbat panth, not in isolation.


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## Inder singh (May 22, 2009)

Beginning of Ardas is from the time of Sri Gobind singh ji. This ardas was prevalent among sikhs much before initiation of khalsa. I have seen a tablet of ardas with a sikh professor dating back to 1690.

These gurnindaks have no knowledge of sikh traditions. Especially this Inder Ghagha who has been a communist in his life and was driver with Punja state electricity board is instigating ignorants to change sikh traditions.


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## Inder singh (May 22, 2009)

> I find it strange that bhagauti is removed though. I know people can use that term to refer to Chandhi but it can also mean sword.



In chandi di vaar we read

Lai bhaguati durgseh varjagan bhari

( Durga took fire emitting bhgauti ( sword) in her hand
  and fought a fierce battle)

Bhagauti is a sword symbolising Akal purakh.


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## Par (May 22, 2009)

Dear Members, This is a very good start to change from the entenched 17th century ritualistic Sikhi to the 21st century. I welcome this courageous stand by the Finland Parbandaks of forthright and foresight. I hope and pray that the other Sikhs of Diaspora get their guidance from this initiative. There are many (and many) worthless rituals in Sikh customs which go against the very fundamental grain of Sikh Gurbani and the teachings of our Gurus. Let us propogate Sikh and Sikhi of AGGS, and move away from the Khalsa rituals which are more akin to Brahmanism. (period).
-par (parminder)singh
usa


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## Sidqui sikh (May 22, 2009)

This is something which is technically and conceptually very wrong as both sikhs and hindus are worshipers of Bhagoti the power of one supreme God. Hindus mainly worsipping it in sargun form in the form of Chandi and the sikhs mainly in the Nirgun form.It is written in the shastras that without shakti(Power) ,Shiv(God) is as good as a Shav(Corpse) therefore the central theme of the ardaas shold not be changed.


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## Par (May 22, 2009)

There we go again. our real Ardas should be 'too thaakur tum peh ardaas. AGGS-268-1' as per the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who ordained AGGS as our everpresent Guru for all ages to come. Now fast forward to the present, these and many other issues (mostly identity based), we are arguing about in vain. Maybe there are as many Sikh Religions as the number of Sikhs in this world. My thinking in my statement was that we have a huge baggage of rituals, and it has become even heavier by the influence of the dominant Brahminic intelligence, which our Gurus earnestly wanted to erase from our lives. That said, I want to qualify here that I am an old MONA SIKH. I percieve the simple truth about various issues of Sikhs as - 'every Khalsa is a Sikh, but not every Sikh is a Khalsa'. These are TWO separate entities, and should live in harmony and  with absolute respect for each other. I am a Sikh of AGGS. It is time to follow the teachings of our Gurus, let us all work to remove the shackles of rituals, which got added upon us without even our knowing. 
-par singh
usa


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## Inder singh (May 22, 2009)

parminder

Beginning pauri of aradas is by Guru Gobind singh ji. You write that you obey SGGS as your Guru because Guru Gobind singh asked sikhs to do that. If you accept his this hukam then why do not accept his Hukam of getting baptized. If you consider that a ritual then why you attach singh with your name? You could be very called a lal or chand or Kumar also.

There are no different versions of sikhism. Sikhism has ten masters from ist to tenth. Their teachings and acts are equally important for sikhs.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 22, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*



vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> IMHO prayer and its words can be individualized but have a question from where did 35 Bhagats came; where as a breakdown of the 5,867 hymns found in the Guru Granth Sahib; include the writings of 6 Gurus, 15 Bhagats (of different faiths), 3 Sikh Bards, 8-17 Bhatts, and Raag Mala?
> 
> ...



Respected Grewal Ji,
Gurfateh.

Imho..the figure 35 is arived at...  15 + 3 + 17 = 35.  Writer of Raagmala is UNKNOWN.


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 22, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*

Dear Giani Ji,

Thanks for the information about 35 though not exactly accurate. Here are my two cents on Raag Mala;


*                                                                                                                      RAG MALA/ਰਾਗਮਾਲਾ*


 In A.D. 1583, a Mohammedan poet by the name of Alim wrote “Madhva Nal Sangit” describing the love affair of Madhava Nal with his beloved Kam Kandala. This work consisted of 353 stanzas of four to six lines each. Rag Mala in AGGS is a part of the above work from sixty third to seventy second stanzas. The account of this story also appears in the tale 91 of Chirtro Pakhyan of Dasam Granth.

AGGS is written in 31 modes of music. The Rag Mala in AGGS describes about 17 of these Raags, Raginis and their subdivisions as sons and daughters of these Ragas. Each Raag is accompanied by five sub-ragas, much like their spouses, along with 8 meters, as their sons, which the musicians sing. By the sunrise they sing, the “Bhairou Raag” along with five more sub-ragas in an accompaniment. First they sing Raag Bhairvi, then Bilawali, second, along with Punia, third, and Bangli, the fourth. Then the fifth sub-raga of Aslekhi, ragini, is sung. These are just the five sub-ragas of Raag Bhairou.

Pancham, Harkh and Disakh are sung next, followed by Bangalam and Madhu Ragas. They are all repeated once more along with Bilawal as the eight shoots of Raag Bhairou. Other Ragas follow similarly. The Ragas mentioned here do not correspond to the Ragas in AGGS. It should be understood that:

     A. Rag Mala is NOT Gurbani.

     B. It is not clear how and when it was included in the sacred AGGS.

It further raises few questions;

How many Sikhs know about the number of Ragas used in AGGS?

How many Raagis know about these Ragas and sing the Gurbani in the Ragas it is supposed to be sung as written?
How does reading it affect one’s spirituality, how ever it educates one about the Ragas IMHO?

If Mundavani is the seal placed by Guru Arjan to AGGS then why Guru Gobind Singh broke the seal by adding his father’s Bani and his Sloke # 54 in response to his father’s Sloke # 53 on page 1429 of AGGS.

The above should not be viewed as contentious since the inclusion of Raag Mala has done no harm. On the contrary one learns something about Ragas, through their inclusion and they broaden one’s perspective on music a bit. Hopefully all the Gurbani of AGGS is sung in the modes of music it is written. 

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 22, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*


*PRAYER/ਅਰਦਾਸ*​
It is a conscious realization of a personal intimate relationship with Holy Omnipotent God, putting aside all selfish desires so one can experience communion with the Akal Purkh, while being hindered by worldly egos. It is a supplication for benefits either for one’s self (petition) or for others (intercession). To pray is to know how to stand still and to dwell on the Word. It is the opportunity to remind one’s self of his priorities and what is most important and vital. Prayer is a reflexive verb meaning. Reciting prayer with belief and conviction literally is the service of the heart and reciting it with out belief in it is lip service. Through prayer one connects to a higher source of love and energy, whenever there is a need of comfort or direction. There is no other better way to open up to the universal, loving, and Universal Creative Energy available to human species.

God is unknowable, infinite, unapproachable (beyond the reaches of human intellect), formless, and imperceptible. One should pray to the Creator and not to the things created by the It. Prayer does not require a language to communicate and can be done successfully in silence. All Knower is neither blind nor deaf and knows what is unsaid.

Prayer describes a state of mind of complete surrender to God in which a person becomes humility incarnate. God is always merciful and kind. Its nature is giving not taking. God never bounces back prayer from humble servants. However all powers are with God, which implies that to answer a prayer is Its prerogative. It is not a check that you can draw on the bank of God, whenever you are hard put to meet your needs. Prayer always springs out of a sense of need and belief, that God is a rewarder of them who seek it diligently whether literate or illiterate. True prayer coming out from the depths of the heart and bereft of selfish desires with complete unconditional surrender is always answered. The only way to compel the God is to love and praise, appreciate, and be thankful with an attitude of gratitude.

We may think of prayer as thoughts or feelings expressed in words. Contemplative prayer is the opening of mind and heart- our whole being- to Akal Purkh, the ultimate mystery, beyond thoughts, words and emotions. We open our awareness to the God whom we know by faith with in us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking and closer than consciousness it self and is perceptible in each one’s heart.

The Truest prayer is “Not my will but Thine will be done” followed by dutiful and energetic action. We can only aspire to bring our lives, our wishes and thoughts in to harmony with the Divine Law. It means we have to ask in spirit of unselfishness and purity of heart, desiring nothing but submitting unconditionally to the Universal Spirit. Thus freeing the mind of attachments and desires. All that is remained was pure supreme light “the seed of our existence and identity”.

We are born naked and we leave naked. Yet in between we accumulate wealth, family, belongings, a good name, religious pride, pride of the body, and good looks. In themselves they are just things-neither good nor bad. These attachments in our minds have to be destroyed in the fire of focusing contemplative meditation.

The Truth will be revealed when the mind is freed “Oh man recognize yourself,” and see the source of pure supreme light. The aim of the seeker on this path is to have no aims for any desires. When you have no desires, you have conquered the all-wandering mind. The mind is the total sum of desires. The mind is like a bird flying aimlessly, and going in to the future hopes and desires or running back in to the past memories and sorrows. Most people spend their lives like this, resulting in stress, depression, burnt out, no happiness, and uncontented, unfulfilled hopes, bitterness, negativity and so on.

Ordinary consciousness is made up of desires, cravings, fears, and prejudices, fixed ideas, habits and lower instincts. The mysterious central power is located in Our Self. So we should strive to seek with in. Close the outer senses and open the eye of the mind upon the world with in.
Most prayers are more or less selfish requests to God to make exceptions in favor of the petitioner, which if not granted leads to: 

• Loosing faith.

• Killing self-reliance.

• Developing more ferocious selfishness and egotism than what is already endowed by nature.
If one’s devotion is sincere, a response is drawn from the field of Universal Creative Energy that may be interpreted as an answer to the prayer. Prayer response, or having needs met without asking for assistance, does not prove that God cares for us (we understand caring expressed by one person to another). The situation and the process do not need to be analyzed and explained: if the relationship satisfies the seeking heart, with results following that is sufficient. Complete understanding will unfold with illumination of consciousness.

Because God's nature is what it is, so long as we have even a faint intellectual grasp or partial intuitive insight of the reality of God, there should be no questions in our minds about whether or not God loves us, cares for us, approves of us, or wants us to awaken spiritually. This is all right if one is willing to learn and to grow in knowledge and grace.  A contrasting condition, which is also self-defeating, is an attitude of individual superiority, which may be expressed as arrogance, and denial of any need for a relationship with the Higher Power.

There are and always have been human beings who have progressed spiritually beyond the majority of race and i.e. what we are aspiring in this spiritual growth. The whole purpose of life is to strengthen character, which is the school of conscience, by humbly requesting God to remove our character defects.

One should implore for the strength to subjugate the lower instinct and fortitude to develop the higher instincts.

*Conclusion:*

Prayer is not a way to manipulate God in to doing what an individual desires but it is an attempt to get in to fellowship with God.  In prayer one should try to figure out what he or she should be as Akal Purkh wants him/her to be rather than asking God what It should do. In prayer one should accept Akal Purkh’s Will (ਭਾਣਾ) and say that, “Thy Will be done”. The wording of the prayer does not matter and can be individualized by the petitioner. It is the sincerity of the prayer, which matters. It is the motive that makes difference between true and false prayer. Only the prayer coming from the depths of the heart is accepted at the door of the Creator. Other prayers are self-deception and hypocrisy.
Prayer is the constant yearning to know the Truth and be worthy of it. It is the striving of the mind towards its parent Divinity the Universal Spirit. Outwardly prayer should express it- self in actions by which we strive to manifest, which is best in us. 

Cordially,
Virinder S.Grewal


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## GillAUS (May 22, 2009)

This is terrible news. There is nothing 'revolutionary' changing around the opening part of the Ardaas because this is from the holy pen of Guru Gobind Singh and has been taken from Chandi Di Vaar, which IS GURBANI.

Adding parts to Ardaas AFTER this can perhaps be done however, there should be consensus amongst the sangat.

I guess these people think their penmanship is greater than Guru Gobind Singh's.


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## spnadmin (May 23, 2009)

GillAUS ji

I myself am mystified by the story and did some research on Sikhs in Finland as possible on the Internet. There is not a lot of information. There are only 4 gurdwaras -- and two are San Mat, one is affiliated with Yogi Bhajan and 3HO, and then there is one that appears to be a mainstream Sikh gurdwara. The article does not give the name of the gurdwara -- most likely it is not the Sant Mat or 3HO gurdwara. Sant Mat does not adhere to  tenets of Sikhism anyway, and 3HO are very strict about Ardaas conforming with the rehat mayrada. It is impossible from the little information that is available to figure out more about the sangat. Very strange story.


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## JarnailSingh (May 23, 2009)

khalsa ji, I  understand the sentiments behind these changes in ardaas. khalsa panth can do it, as done earlier but dont take steps in haste. how one gurdwara or a few sikh or organisations can change ardaas. dont glamarise this act. if tomorrow any oyher gurdwara or dera would change ardaas then what would you do. this is going to hurt sikh community. it would create divisions in sikh comunity. in last i dont think the change they have made is right. yes we should pray to akalpurakh only but dont change 'pritham bhagauti....' as it is part of guru gobind singh jis baani. people are making mistake because they think bhagauti means sword or bhagwati of hinduism. actually bhagauti means bhagats. please read sukhmani sahib where guru sahib said; bhagauti bhagwant bhagte ka rang, tis bhagauti ki mat ootam hoye. guru gobind singh ji said earlier bhagatan ne akalpurakh nu simaraya phir guru nnak ne dhayaya. we must understand bhagat farid, bhagat kabir and naamdev ji born 200 years earlier then guru nanak sahib. we must understand har jug jug bhagat upaya. 10 sikh guruan ne akalpurakhdi bhagti ate shabad da gyan dridh karaya. osi gur nu jo shabad hai nanak ne dhayaya te aise ton angad bane. aih sab thayeen hoye sahaye. i am not saying these are last words but think before taking steps in haste- jarnail singh journalist


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 23, 2009)

GURBANI cmae direct from the Creator..Akal Purakh..as Guru nanak ji stated..Jaisee meh aweh KHASAM KI BANI..tessrra karin GYAN ve Lalo....AS the Creators Bani comes ...it Brings GYAN..the LIGHT of His Brahm...and thats why our GURU is GYAN GURU..the SHABAD GURU.

THIS KHASAM KI BANI---the GURBANI in SGGS cannot be changed as it is PERFECT and COMPLETE on ALL COUNTS. Also it comes to us in its Original Form peeend by our GURUS and signed and sealed by them...no chnages..no additions. subtractions, adulterations,..not a single word can be changed as it is ALL accounted for in Guru Arjun Ji Sahibs Unparralleld Numbering System of recordign the Gurbani which was then follwoed to the Letter by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI when He added Guru teg bahadur Jis GURBANI into the SGGS and gave the GURGADEE in 1708.

THUS who who insinuate or suggest that the SGGS can be interefered with are baseless. It just CANNOT be done. NO SIKH worth his salt would even Dare suggest it..much less implement it.
Soem have tried...TEJA SINGH BHASSAURRIAH was one...he was excommunicated and stopped. His grandson recently begged forgiveness from Akal takhat for his grand-dad's mistake (But Teja Singh died without admitting his mistake as he was a stubborn man - and he died ALONE becasue all his friedns desertd him due tot hsi sacrilege. He Printed a Bir of SGGS MINUS the GURBANI of the BHAGATS, Bards and Sunder Ji - according to him..the Bhagats were low castes, the bards were muslims and sunderji was nonexistant child and his Ramkli Sadd was UNSIKH !!

The Second Group of people who tried to interfere with the Sanctity of the SGGS were the NAMDHAREES of BHAINI . Their "living Guru" declared that in order to complete as many as few thousand Sehaj Paaths of SGGS in the shortest time...the SGGS Bir was DISMANTLED and its PAGES were distributed among the snagat of Bhaini and each PATRA was supposed to be read continuously...this so called PATRA PAATH was secerly criticised by the Sikhs and was STOPPED as soon as word got out and the Dismantled Bir was REBOUND into One.

A new "trick" that has emerged recently was one in which some people got BOUND INTO ONE VOLUME..the SGGS and the DSM Granth. This is alleged to have happend a long time ago but the Huge Volume of both granths in one was only recently EXPOSED. This is SACRILEGE as the SGGS is GURU..and the dsm is NOT...so NOTHING ELSE can be BOUND to the GURU and Parkashed simultaneoulsy. The Akal takhat has been informed and they are expected to DISMANTLE and decouple the dsm granth from the SGGS and take further action to STOP such acts of Sacrilege. ONLY the SGGS is our GURU and has the RIGHT to GURGADEE and Parkash on the THRONE as ordained by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in 1708. Guru Ji BOWED ONLY to SGGS ALONE. PERIOD.


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## Inder singh (May 23, 2009)

Writings of our gurus are Gurbani whether contained in Sri Guru Granth sahib or not? They are equally holy for a sikh.

There are numerous gutkas found still in punjab dating back to early eighteenth century that have both granths bound in one volume.Apart from that Bhai Mani Singh ji bound both granths in one volume.


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## Inder singh (May 23, 2009)

Writings of all Gurus is Gurbani and equally holy whether contained in Guru Granth sahib or not. 

There are numerous gutkas of eigthteenth century in Punjab that have banis of both granths in them.Likewise Bhai mani singh's bir had both gRanths in one volume.


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## SinghJaskaran (May 23, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*



HARTEJ KOUR said:


> this change in Ardas is made for the good and i dont think there is anything debatable on this..




Do you really think Hartej that whatsoever the banis our Guru Sahebans have left for us.. on which our path should be based (even 10% of it would be good) can be just reformatted just like anything?? jeez are u sure u belong to Khalsa Panth and Sikh Religion?? look at the "KAUR" spelling of urs.. its "Kaur" not "KOUR"... and if you are a fake girl acting as a sikh.. jeez leave this forum as soon as possible before we start a topic for u


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 23, 2009)

There is NO " *KANOURRA*" in ENGLISH..lol....so KAUR..KOUR..KOR....CAUR..CORE..whatever goes  BECAUSE ENGLISH DOESNT HAVE THE CORRECT PUNJABI *KANNOURRA* SIGN. period.

That is PURE LINGUISTICS.

2. On SPN..we DONT JUDGE anyone. Who is 10% sikh..99% Sikh..not even 0.0001 %Sikh..whatever...its all between the individual and his GURU/GOD/Akal Purakh !!

3. Is there a "Fake"/not fake" Meter to check ??...someones humanity..sikhi..or lack of thereof....? I havent heard of any such instrument..or have i missed something jios...???

Lets just discuss the IDEAS..not the POSTERS..please Jios.

Thanks.:welcome::welcome::welcome::ice::ice::ice:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 23, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Writings of our gurus are Gurbani whether contained in Sri Guru Granth sahib or not? They are equally holy for a sikh.
> 
> There are numerous gutkas found still in punjab dating back to early eighteenth century that have both granths bound in one volume.Apart from that Bhai Mani Singh ji bound both granths in one volume.




Respected Inder Singh Ji,

I am astounded...........GUTKAS are NOT GRANTHS.  How could a GUTKA have BOTH "GRANTHS"...??? do you mean Banis... ?? and Panj Granthi pothis etc. I use the Das Granthi pothi to teach....that is bani of GGS.

2. Having BANIS in a GUTKA.....is different..after all GUTKAS are NOT "GURU"....Would anyone dare to Parkash a GUTKA ?? in place of SGGS ?? i dotn think so.

3. BINDING the SGGS together with dsm granth is NOT what GURU GOBIND SINGH JI DID in 1708. The BIR that Guru Ji Bowed to and Gave Gurgadee was JUST the *SGGS ONLY*.


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## SinghJaskaran (May 23, 2009)

Well if that is the Thing Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!! I take back my words and humbly apologise if the user or anyone from the forum was hurted.


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## SinghJaskaran (May 23, 2009)

My chacha ji lives in Finland from past 20 years. He is one of the Known Sikh Business man there in Helsinki among the Indians.
I haven't received a mail or reply to one of the forwarded mails n article of the ardaas being changed in the Gurudwara sahib of Helsinki. However I guess I might be able to help out this topic more from the word I will get from him like whats the response from the side of Mr. Manjeet Singh, the lead member of the Gurudwara Committee of Helsinki. I am keeping my fingers cross for today to get a response from him.


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## spnadmin (May 23, 2009)

Singhjaskaran ji

Thank you for offering to look more deeply into this matter. There is almost nothing about Sikhs in Finland's diaspora. Keep us posted when you find out.


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## Inder singh (May 23, 2009)

Giani ji

Though Gutkas are not granths but they contain banis. Any document that contains bani is respected by sikhs. 

The issue under discussion is deliberate change of ardas and Dohra by some in finland. It is a violation of sikh rehat maryada. Let us focus on the topic instead of diverting discussion to other issues.


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## Inder singh (May 23, 2009)

> My chacha ji lives in Finland from past 20 years. He is one of the Known Sikh Business man there in Helsinki among the Indians.
> I haven't received a mail or reply to one of the forwarded mails n article of the ardaas being changed in the Gurudwara sahib of Helsinki. However I guess I might be able to help out this topic more from the word I will get from him like whats the response from the side of Mr. Manjeet Singh, the lead member of the Gurudwara Committee of Helsinki. I am keeping my fingers cross for today to get a response from him.


The party in question and spokesman are notorious to spread false news to gain attention. It is quite possible that there was a meeting in some of their supporter's home where this was decided. Persons like Inder Ghagha are not allowed to particpate in Gurudwaras in USA because of their anti panth and anti gurmat activities.

This is what one memeber from Finland writes on another site
harsimran kaur 

               I'm from Finland and i was surprised to read this. As far as i know there's only one Gurdwara sahib in Finland and at least last sunday they were still saying the ardaas normally.. so this seems weird.. i hope it's not true.


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## spnadmin (May 23, 2009)

Inder ji

There is only one gurdwara in Finland that is not either sant mat or 3JO .... and yes the entire story is weird. Facts would help.


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## Par (May 23, 2009)

Inder,
You have done a marvellous job of chastising. Your words speak volume. I only know that Guru Gobind Singh did have Sikhs with him, who did not become Khalsa. One main precept of Sikhism is 'Sarbat Da Bhalla.' I wish you well and power to you and your ideology. 
-par singh
usa


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 23, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*



HARTEJ KOUR said:


> this change in Ardas is made for the good and i dont think there is anything debatable on this..


I am sorry to say that the commentators like Gyani Jarnail singh and vohra are ignorant of the*basic principles of congregation* and the *supremacy of Akal Takhat,* which is the only higher authority to give it's approval on any Panthic controversies and disputes damaging or dividing Panth. Sikh congregation (sangat) can discuss but can't verdict without approval of higher authority of Akal Takhat, *like in the recent case where DSGPC president Sarna has betrayed to Panth and felicitated the enemies of Sikhs at Gurudwara Rakabganj in presence of Sikh Sangat and with the consent of it's members/body present there. *
If Sangat had been allowed to take such crucial decisions, the leaders (Kurh pardhaan)will certainly get the decisions declared in their favor by large gathrings giving impression of Sangat.
Hartej kaur has raised this issue in total ignorance of the impact of debate. Baba Ram Rai just changed a word of Gurbani and he was ex-communicated by Guru ji himself. Any change in Gurbani or Ardas is never permitted without approval of Akal Takhat and *anyone should never make any attempt to degrade the superemacy of Akal Takhat which is the highest temporal seat of Sikh religion.*
Guru charnaa da dass.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa


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## Rupinder.Singh (May 23, 2009)

Respected all,

I have been going through all this discussion right from the start. The only thing that I can conclude so far is this.

*Root Cause*: Lack of a centrally managed Common reference Material that documents the right explanation of the certain misunderstood words in SGGS to avoid confusions like this.

There is misunderstanding among sangat about the noun "bhagouti" some of us are taking it as "Durga" , some of us interpret it as "Sword" and some interpret it as "Bhagats". We wont be able to come to a common conclusion unless we have the right interpretation of "bhgauti" in Ardaas. and that cant be achieved without a well researched documentation of this and many other words in SGGS. I dont know if there is any such documentation made available by the SGPC or not, but I have never come across any. And I really feel that it should be there and widely distributed to avoid any conflicts like this. 


*The approach we are showing here in response to the above change:*

Majority of us are against the change being made. and believe that Finland community is not following SGGS, So only resolution is sack them of the panth or isolate them. But the question is will that resolve the issue. Will that assure us that it wont happen again in future. Is not it some thing like dictatorship which we are knowingly or unknowingly following. Will that not cut away our own part from our own body. we have already cut many parts so far...

*The only thing missing is explanation and communication*..we have not tried to talk to Finland community yet to get the explanation on what grounds did they make this decision but we have already started giving our decisions..decisions made without asking for explanation or giving explanation could be catastrophic.

So please all..stay together...explain to others what you think and why ..dont impose it on them. ..listen to them what they think...guide them amicably into the right path if they are wrong or ask them to explain if they think they are right...identify the root cause and resolve it..please dont start the blame game..it will lead us nowhere..


:idea:


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 23, 2009)

Dear All, 

*                                                                                                                  Bhagouti/ ਭਗਉਤੀ*​ 
The word Bhagouti/ ਭਗਉਤੀ have several meanings. Mahan kosh defines it as venerable, or adorable God (from Bhagvati/goddess Durga) as well as goddess or sword- ਭਗਵਾਨ ਦਾ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਕ, ਵੈਸ਼ਨਵ ਭਗਤ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਦਾ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਕ (2) ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ. This word has been used in AGGS several times with different meanings to address God or goddess Durga or sword/great power etc. 

Guru Amardas in Siri Raag defines Bhahauti;

ਸੋ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਇਕਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਣੈ ॥ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

_So bẖag&shy;uṯī jo bẖagvanṯai jāṇai. Gur parsādī āp pacẖẖāṇai. Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖai ikaṯ gẖar āṇai. Jīvaṯ marai har nām vakẖāṇai. Aisā bẖag&shy;uṯī uṯam ho&shy;ė. Nānak sacẖ samāvai so&shy;ė. _

One who knows the Benevolent God is the true Bhagautee. By Guru's Grace, he is self-realized. He restrains his wandering mind, and brings it back to its own home within the self. He remains dead while yet alive, and he chants the Name of the God Such a Bhagautee is most exalted. O Nanak, he merges into the True One. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 88

Guru Arjan uses the word in different settings in Siri Ragas, Gauri, Ramkali, and Parbhati;

1. Guru Arjan, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 71-7
2. Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 274
3. Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 912-17
4. Guru Arjan, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1348-2

*Conclusion;*

IMHO this word could be used for God by individuals, and should be left to them for his/her own discretion rather than making any judgment on its use.

Cordially,
Virinder S. Grewal


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## spnadmin (May 23, 2009)

_"Guru Amardas in Siri Raag defines Bhahauti;

ਸੋ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਇਕਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਣੈ ॥ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

_ _So bẖag*uṯī jo bẖagvanṯai jāṇai. Gur parsādī āp pacẖẖāṇai. Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖai ikaṯ gẖar āṇai. Jīvaṯ marai har nām vakẖāṇai. Aisā bẖag*uṯī uṯam ho*ė. Nānak sacẖ samāvai so*ė. 
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25092 (Ardaas Changed)

One who knows the Benevolent God is the true Bhagautee. By Guru's Grace, he is self-realized. He restrains his wandering mind, and brings it back to its own home within the self. He remains dead while yet alive, and he chants the Name of the God Such a Bhagautee is most exalted. O Nanak, he merges into the True One. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 88_ " from post 34


Ardaas

sRI * BgOqI* jI shwie[
Sri Bhagouti ji Sahai
May the respected sword (God in the form of the Destroyer of evil doers) help us


Guru Amardas Ang 88
ਐਸਾ  *ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਉਤਮੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
aisaa bhagouthee outham hoe ||
Such a Bhagaautee is most exalted.
 

There is no possibility of individual discretion, vsgrewal148895 ji. Please forgive me.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 23, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> I am sorry to say that the commentators like Gyani Jarnail singh and vohra are ignorant of the*basic principles of congregation* and the *supremacy of Akal Takhat,* which is the only higher authority to give it's approval on any Panthic controversies and disputes damaging or dividing Panth. Sikh congregation (sangat) can discuss but can't verdict without approval of higher authority of Akal Takhat, *like in the recent case where DSGPC president Sarna has betrayed to Panth and felicitated the enemies of Sikhs at Gurudwara Rakabganj in presence of Sikh Sangat and with the consent of it's members/body present there. *
> If Sangat had been allowed to take such crucial decisions, the leaders (Kurh pardhaan)will certainly get the decisions declared in their favor by large gathrings giving impression of Sangat.
> Hartej kaur has raised this issue in total ignorance of the impact of debate. Baba Ram Rai just changed a word of Gurbani and he was ex-communicated by Guru ji himself. Any change in Gurbani or Ardas is never permitted without approval of Akal Takhat and *anyone should never make any attempt to degrade the superemacy of Akal Takhat which is the highest temporal seat of Sikh religion.*
> Guru charnaa da dass.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa



Guru Piayare Ajmer Singh Ji Randhawa jio,
Gurfateh.

THAT is the crux of the entire Matter....and its NOT NEW or just confined to Finland.
You mentioned Sarna of Delhi...OK and accepted. BUT is the hand being clapped with only ONE PALM..???

Can you answer this..WHO Gave  L.K.ADVANI a SWORD as SIROPA..which he then UNLEASHED and WAVED in the air inside the HARMNDAR SAHIB COMPLEX ?
WHO were  the ESTEEMED JATHEDARS and Pardhaans...with  this BHADDAR PURASH who is on record as writing in His autobiography..MY India MY LIfe..that HE advised Indiara to attack the Akal Takhat and destroy it..and Indira should have done it MUCH EARLIER.:shock::shock::shock: His party wannd ladoos in June 1984
The Picture of Advani waving his naked sword in Harmandar sahib ( NO ONE has done thsi great a Sacrilege ever before in sikh history )..AND THE ACCOMPANYING JATHEDARS ESCORTING HIM...appeared in all newspapers...?????:shock::shock::shock:
Are these the Jathedars that we can trust to protect the sanctity of the Akal Takhat ?IS the AT protected ?? and sacrosanct right now ? TWO WRONGS never made one RIGHT.
IF we have the eyes to see as far as New Delhi..then we should be able to have a "PEEP" at happenings in AMRITSAR....or when the RSS goondas entered the Takhat KESHGARH SAHIB with HATS ON...and shouted Eh Hamara hai...and the Jathedars kept silent..onlookers...HMV...His Masters Voice...???:shock::shock::shock:

A Punjabi Proverb..Katteh da Zor Rasseh/killeh te hundah...a Tied Buffalo is ONLY as STRONG as the Rope/wooden stake it is tied to..  The STRENGTH of the SIKH KAUM is only as strong as the strength of the AKAL TAKHAT !!..and its JATHEDARS who have to rise up to the STRENGTH of AKALI PHOOLA SINGH ji no less.( Who had the moral courage to publicly whip Maharaja Ranjit Singh Emperor of Punjab...not  those who bow before a badal who in turn bows before dera jhooth sauda and beas and namdharee satgurus ????:shock::shock::shock:

I TOO want to see a Powerful Akal takhat which BINDS all SIKHS together...as ONE NATION...that PROPOGATES only the GURUS TEACHINGS....Nirol GURBANI and Sikh Rehit..but it wont happen if i close my eyes or wish for it....Lets PRAY !!


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## mystique_void (May 23, 2009)

_"IMHO this word could be used for God by individuals, and should be 
left to them for his/her own discretion rather than making any 
judgment on its use."
_
Dear Sir,

We consider ourselves a Panth, a nation.  We have common practices 
and common beliefs.  Despite a great deal of diversity on a number 
of issues, some of our language and terminology is representative 
of the common thread that binds us together.  The Ardaas 
that is performed at the Gurdwaras on behalf of the whole 
Sangat is a unified expression of shared emotions and aspirations.     

We are not a bunch of hippies using our sweet discretion in 
whichever way we can in an attempt to find solace through 
free love.


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## jasi (May 23, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Dear writer Sahib. 
Please explain to me considering Shri Guru Nanak Deve Ji `s teaching why we have a organized relegion ? We all are one and come from one light and yet you are a worrried about changing The Ardas and what not. Ardas can be done being silent in any loactions other than Gurudwarars which was meant to get to gether betwen each others to discuss goodness and Nam Japo.

Now we are enriched in cast system which is fundamently wrong in our Guru nanak Deb  Ji's teachings and  adding word of the Bhagats without teaching their philosphy to the Sangat at large the reason of naming them in Ardas. Where are these so called presidents of Gurudwaras to have their main object to spread the teaching of our GURUS. But did you start teaching their words and meaning of their saying in any Gurudwaras latley.

We need to introduce the real teaching of Guru Nanak Deve ji to join  in the  universe nasis  that what happened during Mugal oppression kingdom to act as a  defender of injustice to our broithers Hindus and  ourselves  and now we want Khalistan to divide the coutry.It did not make any sence when you have power to topple the giovenment without sacricficng your lives.Dy uring Mugal time there was no freedom but oppersesion,. Now we listen these politicians that your language is in trouble ,your relegion is in trouble and brain wash all the peasent and ilterate people.Teach them you have power full say when it comes for voting time to change the goverment who passes laws against your wishes.

Guru Nanak Deve ji is the teaching SIKH and Gurus were blessed with further vision as an extention to the base which was created by 1st Guru Nanaj k dev Ji to lay a foundations of faith.

Please reply to my concern to divide the country which our Gurus sacriced their lives to keep united..When voting time come we sell our seleves for bottle of SHARAB or favour to local mayor .Vote is most powerfull tool to topple ant government in den mocratic society . Did you ever teach that in Groudware but only "Shahidi Deo" for the v cause created by voting the wrong guy. For people like peasants who knows nothing about which they are ready to sacrice thier lives. 

There is lot of education needed for my brothers and sister in Punjab. Your head lines to change this to bring origional or new one to bring to the light do not impress any one Sir.

Shri Guru Nanak Dev ji's is the teaching to SIKH is all about and following 9 Gurus were blessed with further vision as an extension to the base which was created by 1st Guru Nanak Dev Ji after laying a foundations of the Faith.on nothing but TRUTH.

It is time to wake up before no one start beliveing in our true faith. because time has changed and you live in free world.



Thanks 

Jaspi


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 23, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, I am well aware with your views but please don't try to approve the malice act of some people at Helsinki-Finland. Gathering of a few people away from mainland can't be called a Sikh congregation (Sangat).This mailign act of them is an attempt to divide the Sikh Panth and a strict action be taken immediately by Akal Takhat to prevent such defamation and humiliation in future be stopped. , a challenge to the highest temporal seat of Sikh faith.
The RSS lobby is very strong, witty and plays all trick to divide Sikhs. Few Sikhs also who plays on behest of them are the serpentine beneath roses.Thus the Parbandhak committee/body  of Helsinki-Finland be summoned immediately at Akal Takhat  and be dealt strictly.
We Sikhs knows to protect our religion from our enemies within. If they keep their efforts on and on, than without caring our families or our interests, we have the ability to eliminate them in the interest of our religion but can't allow them to play their game to harm the pious Sikh religion. We aren't chrishtians and this is not 16th century.They should realize it.
Presently our leaders are betraying with us like Baadal and Sarna. So please stop such malpractices to divide and rule.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 23, 2009)

*Re: Ardass changed..*

Yes Gyani ji, here you are. I welcome your views. I too condemn the wicked and all such malice acts played by Jathedars (employees of SGPC). Your complaint is the pain of a true Sikh.Yes. Badal is harming Panth in Punjab and Sarna in Delhi. Thay are the serpentine, needs to be crushed. Guru Naanak ji has already adorned them by,"KURH PHIREN PARDHAN VE LAALO." I have come openly against the most influential person of India, the Amitabh Bacchan for his role in massacre of innocent Sikhs in 1984 without any fear.I have challenged him on his blog also. Read at my blog,Amiatabh bacchan 1984  Whereas you and we are aware of Baadal, he is also condemned in blog Punjab ke Kamine
 Guru Sahab says it is easy to speak truth but to live a truthful life is very difficult  but assurance is also there that,"Gur ka kahiya ank samaavey Nirmal saachey succho baahvey."
So why should we fear of anybody to speak truth.


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## Archived_Member16 (May 23, 2009)

*For information purposes and as a matter of interest: *There are variances in Sikh Rehit Maryada practice among the Takhts too ! *Akal Takht *so far has NOT SUCCEEDED in standardizing the mayada among the Takhts ! 

As an example:


*source:* The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab


*Hazur Sahib has unique  maryada *
Varinder Walia
Tribune News  Service 



 *Hazur Sahib, October 29, 2008*​ Maryada (Sikh  code) does not allow the Jathedar of Takht Hazur Sahib to leave Nanded till  death and he has to be a “brahmchari” throughout life. 

As per two-century-old maryada, the Jathedar, Giani  Kulwant Singh, can’t attend the meetings of Akal Takht though he nominates his  second in command (vice-Jathedar) to attend the meetings of Sikh high priests at  Akal Takht. Though the first ardas in the wee hours is performed at Takht Hazur  Sahib for allowing the Sikh community to do a pilgrimage of all historical  gurdwaras, including the Golden Temple, as per the maryada of Takht Hazur Sahib,  Giani Kulwant Singh can’t pay obeisance there.

Talking to The Tribune, Dalip Singh, a class fellow  of Giani Kulwant Singh, said he (Jathedar) had to remain at Nanded as his duty  starts at 2 am with the performance of ardas before washing of the sanctum  sanctorum with holy water of the Godavari is carried out. After a break of only  a couple of hours, the Jathedar has to perform the daily rites in the sanctum  sanctorum where even other Sikh high priests are not allowed to enter.  
Finally, the Jathedar goes back to his official  residence in the Takht complex after the evening prayers, which are performed in  the most traditional manner. 

Gagrya Sikh Hardyala Singh, who carries gaggar (a  silver utensil) for carrying holy water from the Godavari to Takht Hazur Sahib,  too has to be bachelor and can’t leave Nanded till death. A task force of the  youth, carrying traditional weapons, escort him barefoot. The tradition of  performing aarti besides ardas on the riverbanks after the first pitcher is  drawn is a mesmerising experience. *Being a separate committee, the maryada of  Takht Hazur Sahib is quite different from that of Akal Takht and the  SGPC.*

Milk and water of the Godavari is sprayed on the  gurdwara building from a fire tender on the eve of Diwali. 

The naubat (a traditional musical instrument) is  played by non-Sikhs in front of Takht Hazur Sahib every day. 

The most significant variation among maryada of  Takht Hazur Sahib and other three Takhts of Punjab is that the recitation of  Guru Granth Sahib and the Dasam Granth go on simultaneously. Unlike at the  gurdwaras and Takhts under the control of the SGPC, devotees offer “panjeer  parsad”, which can be collected from the counters put up by the Takht  management.

*********************************************************

source: Vedanti for one rehat maryada for all takhts - Chandigarh - Cities - The Times of India



*Vedanti for one  rehat maryada for all  takhts*

3 Mar  2004, 1800 hrs IST, Yudhvir Rana , TNN


 *AMRITSAR:  ( TIMES OF INDIA  )*To put a rest to the controversy of practicing of different rehat  maryada among takhts, the Akal Takht would initiate efforts to constitute a  common rehat maryada (Sikh code of conduct) for all the five Takhts and would  also convene a meeting of Sikh intellectuals and organizations to review the  Sikh Rehat Maryada drafted by Conduct and Conventions sub committee of Shiromani  Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee in 1936. 

For a common rehat maryada in all  the takht’s , the Jathedar of Akal Takht Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti along with  Jathedars of Takht Kesgarh Sahib and Takht Damdama Sahib would tour two takht’s  and hold deliberations with Giani Iqbal Singh and Giani Kulwant Singh Jathedar’s  of Takht Patna Sahib and Takht Hazoor Sahib said Vedanti while talking to TNN on  Wednesday after returning from UK visit. 

Vedanti said at present both  Takht Patna Sahib and Takht Hazoor Sahib were following sanatani maryada and  even animal sacrifices were made at Takht Hazoor Sahib, which was not in  consonance with the principals of gurumat said he. He, however, claimed that  Jathedars of these two Takhts were following the sanatani maryada under the  pressure of local populace who was not yet ready to accept radical changes in  the prevalent maryada which also had brahiminical rituals. 

About the  baani of Dasham Granth which is recited daily at Takht Patna Sahib and Takht  Hazoor Sahib and not at Akal Takht, Vedanti said there was no harm in reading  any religious granth but any granth could not be equated with Sri Guru Granth  Sahib adding that issue of dashm granth have been blown out of proportion.  

He said he would be visiting both Takht Patna Sahib and Takht Hazoor  Sahib and would try to convince the jathedar’s to formulate the common maryada  and would also persuade the local populace to this regard. He said a meeting of  Sikh intellectuals and various Sikh organizations would be convened in near  future to contemplate over the SGPC drafted Sikh rehant maryada and appropriate  measures would be taken if some concerns were required to be included in the  SGPC’s rehat maryada. 

However he said any inclusion in the rehat maryada  would only be in its true spirit if it was equally honoured by all Sikhs and  Sikh religious institutions. Meanwhile the five high priests would hold meeting  on March 10.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 24, 2009)

Ajmer Singh Ji,
Gurbani says TRUTH never gets OLD..out of date..expired...or torn....
SO YES you are SPOT ON..why should SIKHS Fear to speak the TRUTH when Guru Nanak JI Sahib stood bravely facing up to the mighty Babar..the Lodhis, the Pandits, the Brahmins, the Nawabs, the Mullahs..and SAID the TRUTH. WE have the Personal Example of our GURU and FOUNDER...
I salute YOU. Keep on speaking out the TRUTH sans fear and enmity....we will overcome....simply becasue the  GURU KHALSA PANTH is HIS own Creation....and it cannot be defeated or destroyed.:happy::happy::happy:


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 24, 2009)

Gyani ji ,thanks for appreciation. I just meant to say that nobody has raised any finger upon Amitabh Bacchan whereas he damaged more than Sajjan, Tytler, HKL Bhagat etc. because he appeared live on Door-darshan and raised slogans "Khoon ka badla khoon," due to his hatred call riots were spread all over India and about 4000 innocent Sikhs were brutally murdered on streets, their house were burnt into ashes, thier women were molestes and also raped at some places.Their properties and all belongings were lootyed. Business centres and their shops were gutted and this man is enjoying life under escort of NSG Commondos and moves scotfree. The sinner is leveled as a saint. He did it deliberately and he is never booked in any offense, Madame Tussaude is creating his wax statues and honoring the sinister by placing in their museum. What a shame? No voice is raised by the British Sikhs, no protest is made in the streets of London. 
I don't see the movies of the killer of innocents brothers of my religion. You people may forgive him but i won't. I want to challenge him in court but i can't afford the litigation expenses. As soon as someone comes to help me, i'll certainly file a suit against him by hiring top Sikh lawyers because i am capable to argue in court myself but to follow the process of litigation, I need a lawyer.
If he is noy guilty, why does he not sue me of defamation? He knows he is so ignoring me but how long will he ?


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## Balkar Singh (May 24, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Gurufateh  Jio,
           No wonder, this attitude is not new. So many forms of ardas already exist. Babe Namdhari ji, Babe Nanaksarie ji and many others at the historic places  even Takhats  have their different ardas. 
          As you all know,Gurdwaras are beeing formed on the names of diffrent casts. Gurdwaras "Satguru Ravidassji" are growing everywhere in the name of Bhagat Ravidasji, with a different Ardas:
         1) Name of 'Satguru Ravidas ji' after the 10th Guru.
         2)    Jai kara is " JO bole so nirbhai - Guru ravidas ji ki jai.

       The Sangat is supereme but divided. People of a village don't agree to celebrate a gurpurb collectively , what is to say of a city or state ? Satguru Sahib sumatt deve.
                                              Dass Balkar Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 24, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*



Balkar Singh said:


> Gurufateh  Jio,
> No wonder, this attitude is not new. So many forms of ardas already exist. Babe Namdhari ji, Babe Nanaksarie ji and many others at the historic places  even Takhats  have their different ardas.
> As you all know,Gurdwaras are beeing formed on the names of diffrent casts. Gurdwaras "Satguru Ravidassji" are growing everywhere in the name of Bhagat Ravidasji, with a different Ardas:
> 1) Name of 'Satguru Ravidas ji' after the 10th Guru.
> ...



EXACTLY said Balkar singh ji...

WHAT Maryada are we talking about anyway ??

1.THE SRM published by the SGPC and supposedly SANCTIONED by AKAL TAKHAT is NOT FOLLOWED..either in SGPC Gurdwaras or at AKAL TAKHAT itself !!! The SRM is violated quite shamelessly in BOTH these places - Harmandar sahib and Akal takhat Sahib.

2. The other Takhats OUTSIDE PUNJAB have their own UNIQUE HINDUISED Rehit Maryada...Hazoor Sahib JHATKAS BAKRAS and use their BLOOD to bless and snactify the weapons etc displayed in front of SGGS...they have AARTEE with lamps and divas thaals etc etc and also Brahmcharee rules etc etc for their Granthis/Jathedars..

3. The Nnaksarees Thhaths etc etc and Damdami Taksaal Gurdwaras, various Sant matt Baba deras all have their OWN Maryadas...while ostensibly being "SIKH"...Nanaksarees DONT fly the Nishan Sahib, Dont have Guru Ka Langgar or Karrah Parshaad. They treat SGGS as a LIVING PERSON !!

4. There are many many other maryadas..sants usually CREATE one even while resting !! IF they feel like it....they will say ..DO THIS..and their chelas will do it exactly..as Waddeh baba  ji or Brahmgiani Jis have spoken..commanded !! Thus we have various types of Paaths, mantars and all..using gurbani as base...

The BOTTOM LINE is that the GUARDIANS of Sikh Rehat maryada...the SGPC/Akal takhat have FAILED US. It is undeniable TRUTH and FACT that they are heavily infiltrated with RSS/Hindutva Ideology...and operate under the THUMB of POLITICIANS with self serving agendas. Thatsd why the SGPC SELLS Paaths..even through the POST !! Everything is for sale at a PRICE !!!

A MAJOR and DRASTIC OVERHAUL is needed..and it will COME...sooner than later...the Berri is FULL..it will soon SINK. When Jathedars give feeble excuses like..Let the 300th Anniversary clebrations be over..then we will decide...Let the Keshgarh Jathedars sons weddign be over..then we will decide....thats when the ROT is overwhelmingly apparent. Fortunes of a NATION cannot and must not be made to wait for  aJathedar's sons wedding to be over !!! ( btw that particular wedding has been OVER for many many MONTHS now....!!)


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## Hardip Singh (May 24, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> EXACTLY said Balkar singh ji...
> 
> WHAT Maryada are we talking about anyway ??
> 
> ...


 
Gyanni jee,
You are perfactly right . Such important issues can not wait for these wedding excuses. Another hard fact is our these so called Takhat Jathedars can not act on their own . It is clearly the writ of Badals and his cronies & moreover RSS. RSS stands for their another outfit too that is Rastriya Sikh Sangat which is their integral part and has been formed to make fool of us. 

We won't be able to do anything except raising our voice over these issues and then we too will be ex-commincated from the Panth by these Jathedars for raising our voice. I am not afriad of them. But.............

Solution is , what someone has raised in the forumn, is by throwing them out by VOTE in the coming SGPC elections. But how to educate our rural Sikh voters. They are just going with Badals on his empteen promises every time without realising the factual position. God save us from these Badals and other gready poilticians and Jathedars. 

 I pray to my LORD ; please send some one of the type of Baba Kharak Singh or Mehtab Singh who can thro the morden day MASSA RANGARS from our PANTH. That seems to me the only solution. MAY GOD HELP US.


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## Rajinder Kanda (May 24, 2009)

*Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Wahe Guru ji ka khalsa wahe guru ji ki fateh
I could not find how to contact adminstrator of this web, therefore I am writting here. I got a copy of email printed by one of my friend. This was about changes made by Finland sangat in Ardaas. First line of ardaas is changed from '"Pritham Bhaugati Simar Ke ... to Akal Purakh Simar Ke" and second they have added 35 names of bhagtas after Char Sahib Jadeh and dohra is changed also.
Respected Guru Khalsa Ji, Ardaas is always started by saying .. War Shiri Bhaugati Ki Patshahi Dasween "Pritham Bhayhauti Simar Ke ..... to Guru Tegh Bahadar Simarie Ghar Nao Nidh Awe Dhae Sabh Thanie Hoe Sahei".The stanza ... Pritham Bhayhauti Simar Ke ..... to Guru Tegh Bahadar Simarie Ghar Nao Nidh Awe Dhae Sabh Thanie Hoe Sahei is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. No changes can be made by any person or sangat .. in Guru's bani. In coming future this practice can take a big wrong shape of twisting the Bani written in Guru Granth Sahib, Bani of Bhai Gurdaas Ji and Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is happening because of lack of knowlege of Gurbani and Sikhism.
In Ardaas there can few things added after Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani.
This is not my view, even Guru Hargobind sahib ji did not allowed his son Ram Rai to see his father's face when he made one word change ... miti musal maan ki .. to miti bei maan ki...it is well written in Sikh Itihas.
This is my humble submission that if the Finland Sagant can be advised.


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## bhupindersingh (May 24, 2009)

*Change done in ardass in Finland*

Dear Jaspi,

Gurufateh ji,

would like to address few of your concerns, first of all is need to understand the maryada word itself. All educated people know that their are rules/laws made for betterment. Now as every individuals are unique so is their thinking, but to bring the mass to a common platform you need to agree collectively on some thing. This has been the puratan maryada when sikhs used to gather and reveiw their activities/problems. And in this event they also took a call on Ardass too. We need to be a bit humble to understand the need, it is very common feeling among all the people in the world to have their own unique code of conduct, which makes them different and important in the human society. It was also imparted to the sikh society to be in maryada, it is all together different issue who is doing what?
Ardass has few forms as acknowledged by the panth, which changes as per the need ( khushi di Ardass, markat di Ardass, Nawen Karj di Ardass, Shukrane di Ardass, Gupat ardass etc.) But in all the main body is same only in part where we need to adress the topic is taken in account. Ardass is in simple terms a prayer to your Godly connection. It can be done personaly too, but when it comes in question for mass then the layed maryada shoud be followed. But why? I might be able to clear it with some examples. In every school, before the starting the day they offer prayer and all the different schools have their own prayer, but the schools of same manegment/group across different places have same prayer(please try to understand the psychology behind it). I have seen children arguing on the topic that your schools prayer is not right see my schools prayer. This attitude is not only with kids it is more in grown up ones, this issue was well addressed in past by making one common Ardass for the panth and was even layed down the way to bring change future if ever required.
All Gurujis also setted up a maryada and who followed it were Gurmukhs and the ones who made their own ways, went away from Gurus. This was treated as Guru Panth not some bodies personal Panth so the changes should not be done on personal thinking . The unique code is very much essential to keep the racial identity intact.
Now regarding the fact of Muslims and Hindus. History has proved, if some body wants to know the facts, that my dear Hindu friends were more disastrous to the Sikhs than the Muslim friends. It was Muslim government but was always provoked by influential Hindu personalities. The Muslims were not so bad as portrayed by preachers, they trialed people with their sharah rules and gave punishments, now the way the cases were presented was different, they were cunning on those grounds. Lets not forget that at that time their was no democracy, and any ruling power will not take a threat so easily. They allowed the kiths and kins to practice the last rituals as per ones own religion. But what happened in the so called 48 years old Democracy, the sworn-in Prime Minister himself says " Muthi bhar Sikh hai kuchal dalo"( ****** teach them a dyer lesson). And this was solemnly abided by his fellow gentlemen, each of them wanted to score more than each other, by killing innocent people(sikhs) in the country to please their master. And this the BBC's report that their was no body to take care of the bodies lying on the streets for seven/eight days, and snaps show dogs dragging the bodies. Thank God still people have faith in democracy. What happened after that it is going to be 25 years now, not a single person punished for the ****** act. It was a crime committed in the broad day light in front of thousands (literate, nonliterate, professionals, businessmen, peasants, kids, women etc.) and that too not for a day or two, the killing went on and on for six/seven days, till your Democratic Prime Minister was satisfied.
There is always room for difference of opinion but at large it should not be so that it completely changes the ground realities. And if some body is not practicing the right path it doesn't give me the liberty to another wrong. And never two wrong can make a right. 
with the pledge be concerned for each other, be united , be humble and understanding and maintain the concept of Nayara Panth.

with regards,

Bhupinder Singh.


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## spnadmin (May 24, 2009)

*Re: Change done in ardass in Finland*

BhupinderSingh ji

I have moved your comment to this thread so that it is grouped with the comments by jsapi ji. aad0002


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## spnadmin (May 24, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

rajdinderji

I have moved your comments over the thread where you wanted them to be placed as a logical part of the discussion. No problem. Thank you, aad0002


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 24, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Gyani ji, i tooa ppreciate your views. I recite Gurbaani from Guru Granth Sahab ji and blessed by Guruji. By the grace of Guruji , I have seen many miracles like a paralyse stroke i faced while reciting at Tabya. I couldn't turn the page, my hand my fingers did not work. I just creid in silent mode and wept inside, prayed before Guru Granth Sahab ji that if i shall not be able to recite Paath of Gurbaani in future. Than anyhow i carried on with second hand.
Next day in the morning whan i was on the way to Gurudwara which was about 2 kms away. I started chanting Sukhmani Sahab ji. When i was near 18th or 19th ashtpadi, i was passing through a narrow street. Suddenly a car appeared in front of me and blew its horn. I lost my concentration and could not restore afterward. By that time, i had reached near to Gurudwara and there was no time to restart, I just shirked my head and strike my forehaed from my right hand which had stroke last night. After 2-3 times i had strike, suddenly it appeared to me that my hand was fully working and all the pain had disappeared. I cheerfully ran to Gurudwar sahab to thank Guruji and inform all the sangat present there the miracle i had faced. Since trhan for the last three years, I don't feel any abnormality in my hand. It proved that,"Gurbaani kahey sewak jan maane partakh guru nistaarey."
To conclude the story i want to give this message that,"Guru Granth ji maanyo......." does not require to be changed. It is true and shall always be true. Only need is to find the truth in yourself.


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## spnadmin (May 24, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Amer ji

Please to to the doctor to be sure that you are not harboring any un-noticeable but possibly serious latent problems. You don't know what the after-effects might be. Your post above concerns me. Take care of your health.

Antonia


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## Inder singh (May 24, 2009)

Bhai Kahan singh Nabha was a great sikh writer. He  wrote a Book named "Hum Hindu nahin(We are not Hindus)".This book is in the form of dialogue between a Hindu and a sikh where Hindu tries to convince sikh that Sikhs are Hindus and sikh replies that they are not.

Hindu tries to justify sikhs as Hindus by misquoting word Bhagauti as given in Dasam Granth. Sikh gives him answer by quoting from Dasam Granth itself that Hindu has not understood the Bani of tenth master.

Now, these so called comrade sikhs like Inder Ghagha and company are doing the same thing that was being done by Arya samaji Hindus of late 1800s. They are faithless cynicals misleading ignorant sikhs. A time will come when they will not spare Sri Guru Granth sahib also. They are already on record having done so.


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## Inder singh (May 24, 2009)

*Given below is relevant part of book "Hum Hindu nahin" By Bhai kahan singh Nabha in question answer form between a Hindu and a sikh regarding Bhagauti
*
*
*
*Hindu: * At Ardaas (congregational prayer) Sikhs always recite:
* ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੈ...॥*
_ In the beginning I remember Bhagauti..[/FONT]_
It  clearly shows that in Khalsa Dharma there is worship of the goddess. In fact the  word “Bhagauti” is ‘Bhagwati’ which means goddess. Guru Gobind Singh Ji used to  write poetry in Persian script and hence Bhawati and Bhagauti are written in the  same way. The writers of the Gurmukhi script, without understanding the concept  pronunciation made it into Bhagauti.
* Sikh:*  In Gurmat Sudhakar the word ‘Bhagauti’ is discussed in details that will remove  your doubt. Here are a few questions that should satisfy you.
  a) It is written  in the Vaar of Chandi:
* ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹ ਵਰ ਜਾਗਨ ਭਾਰੀ  ॥  ਲਾਈ [/FONT] ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥**
*_Durga held out her sword, appearing like great lustrous  fire; She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood._[/FONT]
If ‘Bhagauti’ means goddess then does the above mean “Durga  caught hold of bhagauti (goddess) and hit her on the head of Raja Sumbh and she  tasted his blood?” What kind of goddess is this bhagauti? Is she a tool that can  be used to hit others?[/FONT]
b) Do  you also believe that Guru Arjan Dev Ji also wrote in Persian script from which  Bhai Gurdas Ji was mislead in copying. [/FONT]
* ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ  ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ  ॥  ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ  ॥*
* ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ  ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ  ॥  ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ॥*
* ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ  ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ  ॥  ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥…..*
* ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ  ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ  ॥  ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥3॥*
_ The true Bhagaautee, the  devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God. He forsakes the  company of all wicked people. All doubts are removed from his mind. He performs  devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all. In the Company of the Holy,  the filth of sin is washed away. The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes  supreme……… The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart. O Nanak, such a  Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||_
You should pay attention  and tell us is it Bhagauti or Bhagwati? And what is its gender? The word  ‘Bhagauti’ here is used as masculine and hence it cannot mean goddess.
c) In the Bhagauti Stotar (Panegyric verse) and in the  writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji we find:
* ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ  ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ  ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ  ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1)*
_ Hail to Siri (mighty)  Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp._
* ਨਾਉ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਲੋਹੁ  ਘੜਾਇਆ  ॥*
_ Name Bhagauti made of  iron. (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Vaar 25)_
Does it mean that  Bhagauti (goddess – if that is the meaning) is made of iron? In Dabistan-Mazahib,  Mohsanfani has given an event to which he himself was a witness. That should  show how much respect the Sikhs had for goddess Durga.
* ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ  ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਕੀਰਤਪੁਰ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ, ਜੋ ਤਾਰਾ ਚੰਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ  ਵਿਚ ਸੀ ।  ਉਥੋਂ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਪੂਜਕ ਸਨ ।  ਪਹਾੜ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਇਕ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ  ਦਾ ਮੰਦਰ ਸੀ,  ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੂਜਣ ਲਈ ਆਸ ਪਾਸ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ  ਆਇਆ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ ।  ਇਕ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨਾਮੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿਖ ਨੇ  ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਤੋੜ ਸੁੱਟਿਆ  ।  ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਦੀ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਾਰੇ ਫੈਲ ਗਈ ।  ਪਹਾੜੀ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪਾਸ  ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਿਕਾਇਤ ਕੀਤੀ  ।  ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਨੂੰ  ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਬੁਲਾ ਕੇ ਪੁੱਛਿਆ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਕੇ ਦੇਵੀ  ਤੋਂ ਪੁੱਛਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਕਿਸ ਨੇ ਤੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ  ।  ਇਸ ਪਰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ  ਕਿ ਹੇ ਮੂਰਖ! ਕਦੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਭੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ? ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਹੱਸ ਕੇ ਜਵਾਬ  ਦਿੱਤਾ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਦੇਵੀ ਬੋਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ ਔਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਚਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਓਸ ਤੋਂ ਨੇਕੀ ਦੀ ਕੀ  ਉਮੈਦ ਰਖਦੇ ਹੋ?  ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਹੋ  ਗਏ  ।*
_ Guru Gobind Singh Ji  reached Kiratpur, which was in the state of Raja Tara Chand. People of that  state worshipped the goddess. On the hill top there was a temple of Naina Devi  (goddess) and people used to come there for worship. There was a Sikh Bhairo. He  cut the nose of the goddess (idol). News spread all over, the hill kings  complained to the Guru. The Guru enquired from the Sikh in front of the kings.  He said, “It should be asked from the goddess who has cut her nose.” On this the  kings said, “Bhairo, are you an idiot? You know the goddess cannot speak.” Bhai  laughed and replied, “if the goddess (idol) cannot speak and cannot protect the  body then what good you expect of her?” Then the kings were quiet._
Here it will  be worthwhile to say something about the goddess to our Sikh brethren.[/FONT]
Dear followers  of Guru Nanak: First of all, consider who goddess was and what good she has done  for the world? From the Puranas we learn that she was daughter of Himalayas and  was married to Shiva. That is why she is known by various names such as Parvati,  and Girja. She helped the gods and fought against demons. She helped a number of  times Indra to gain his throne and Indra is that god who spends all his day in  watching the dance and show of beautiful maidens and passes his time in  pleasures. From the Puranas we learn that there is hardly a Rishi (saint) whom  Indra has not disturbed in his meditation and for that he sent bad character  women. He himself indulged with the wives of the saints. One such story is that  of Aahaleya. What comfort the goddess procured for the world by helping such as  indulgent and bad character person? What reforms Indra introduced on taking his  throne?[/FONT]
The story  about Naina Devi and Jwala Mukhi is as follows. In a Yajna arranged by Dakhsha  his daughter came there without invitation. She saw that there was no share in  the Yajna for her husband Shiva and she jumped in the Havan Kund (sacred fire).  Having come to know this Shiva picked the burning Sati on his trishul (three  pronged spike). At that time parts of her body were scattered all over. Wherever  a part of the body fell that place became worthy of worship. The place where  eyes fell that became Naina Devi, where fell the tongue that became Jwala Mukhi  and so forth.[/FONT]
From this  story if we learn any lesson that is that women should also learn how to fight  and they should respect their husbands, even more than their life. Beyond that  this story does not serve any purpose.[/FONT]
Some  self-willed say that they do not worship the daughter of Himalaya, i.e. the  goddess with eight arms, but they believe in the Eternal power of God. We ask  them, is God’s power separate from Him? Is it Eternal? If you accept Devi  (goddess) separate from God, conscious, primal and eternal and worship that,  then you do not accept Ik Oankar (One God) concept of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. And  that is not Sikhi. If goddess is not separate from God then to worship her by  giving her a separate image is ignorance and lack of sagacity. If goddess is  some transient (non-eternal) identity even then according to Sikh religion she  is not worthy of worship. In principle there is no justification for the worship  of goddess. [/FONT]
Dear Sikh  brothers, in our religion there have been noble women such as Bibi Nanaki, Bibi  Amro, Bibi Bhani Ji, Bibi Veero Ji, Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and Mayee Bhaag Kaur Ji.  Study their lives, remember their good deeds, follow them and instruct your  daughters to gain good qualities like theirs. Thereby your human birth will be  fruitful and you will be worthy of being called the sons of Guru Gobind Singh  Ji. That will make you reformers in the country.[/FONT]
There is  another goddess with which Guru Gobind Singh Ji has blessed you. Without that  you are much away from religion. By dint of that goddess you removed injustice  from this country and you were respected by Muslims and British. That goddess  is:[/FONT]
* ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ  ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ  ॥  ਕਰੇ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਦਵੈ ਸੁਭਟ ਹਾਥ ਸੋਹੀ ॥*
* (ਭਗਉਤੀ  ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ  1-2)*
_ Hail to Siri (mighty)  Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp. That makes two of one and is beautiful in  hand._
* ਜੋਊ ਮੰਯਾਨ ਤੇ  ਬੀਰ ਤੋ ਕੋ ਸੜੱਕੈ  ॥ [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਲੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਧ ਬੱਕੈ  ਕੜੱਕੈ  ॥*
* ਧਸੈ ਖੇਤ ਮੈਂ ਹਾਥ  ਲੈ ਤੋਹਿ ਸੂਰੇ  ॥ [/FONT]ਭਿਟੈ ਸਾਮੂਹੈ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਾਵੰਤ  ਸੂਰੇ  ॥*
* (ਭਗਉਤੀ  ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ  21-24)*
_ When the brave take thee out of the sheath, they roar and pass the ocean of  death. They advance in the battle field and fight advancing forward.   _
By  turning your backs on these devis (noble women) you have offered many riches to  these blood thirsty goddesses. If you had spent that on the well being of your  daughters, the name of the Sikhs would have been known like the sun all over the  world and coming generations would have been grateful to you. Still there is  time. If you want progress for your Quam (community) and country, establish  schools and colleges where Sikh character can be infused and reinforced and  nourish devis (noble women) who are strong, praise worthy and worthy of Dharma.  By that your decedents will learn of the counsel of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and they  will change the kali-age (age of darkness) into Satyug (age of truth).


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 24, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*



aad0002 said:


> Amer ji
> 
> Please to to the doctor to be sure that you are not harboring any un-noticeable but possibly serious latent problems. You don't know what the after-effects might be. Your post above concerns me. Take care of your health.
> 
> Antonia


Veer ji, Thanks for taking care of me but believe it, the hand which i could not raise is now functioning perfectly.
This was just one incident quoted to share with readers and all Sikhs that they should bow before Guru Granth Sahab Ji , considering PARGAT DEH Of AKAL PURAKH. I have been cured like this 2-3 times,. On Baiskhi day of 2007, We were two paathis (By profession i am not a Paathi) reciting Gurbaani and we could not arrange any other Paathi Singh so both we agreed to recite 4 hrs. each to continue and break. At my break i got slipped accidently and my foot was twisted badly. I  fell down and was helped by bye passers, i can't say exactly whether i had a fracture or not but severe and uncontrollable pain was there.. At that time my intention was in continuity of Akhand Paath not in my foot. Somehow i managed to be back and tried to relax but i could not place my foot on ground. 
My shift started but i could not sit in cross-legged position to recite Gurbaani. In my mind only i cried and appealed (Ardaas) to Waheguru to help me as there was no body else to replace me. Somehow i continued and than i forgot while reciting. After my shift was over, i tried to sleep but the severe pain didn't allow me.  I can't say how i went to sleep but when i got up to fresh and came back to start my shift i realized there was no pain but when i  tried to touch my foot, i could sense something wrong. Believe me, neither i applied any pain killer cream or tablet nor it required to visit a Doctor. 
The touch effect of pain i sensed for about a month but i never walked abnormally. Whenever i get some problem i just pray and get cured overnight. If this is not a miracle of my Waheguru ji than what. I never need a Doctor,"Mera vaid Guru Govinda...."
Please visit Boon of Life and see the blessings of Waheguru ji upon me in this materialistic world.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 24, 2009)

I agree with the views of Inder Singh ji because i am well aware of all this Hindu mythology and i have also written a blog to answer the wicked moves of RSS and some of our bretheren who have become serpentine beneath roses and axing their own faith in ignorance. Any one can visit wesikhsnothindus.blogspot.com where i have tried to expose RSS moves to submerge Sikh religion in Hinduism.


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## Archived_Member16 (May 24, 2009)

source: The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

*Finland  gurdwara faces Takht action for changes in ardas* 
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service ​ *Amritsar, May 24*
Peeved over a change in the  ardas (Sikh prayer) by a gurdwara in Finland, Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar of  Akal Takht, has decided to call a meeting of the Sikh clergy at Akal Takht  Secretariat for taking a strict action as per maryada against the persons  responsible for the violation of the Sikh code. 

 The gurdwara of Finland kicked off a row by taking  a unanimous decision to replace the first line of the ardas from “Pritham  Bhaugauti simar ke….” to “Akal Purakh simar ke….” Moreover, the gurdwara added  to the ardas the mention of the 35 Bhagtas whose holy verses are included in  Guru Granth Sahib.

 As approved by the SGPC and Akal Takht, the Sikh  prayer begins with “Pritham Bhaugauti simar ke… (first remembering sword).  

 The ardas mainly comprises three parts. It begins  with holy verses by describing the role of the first nine Gurus in relation to  God, then about Guru Gobind Singh, followed by the important milestones in the  Sikh history. 
Thereafter, it includes a plea to God for grace on  the whole of the humanity and the Khalsa and ends with the purpose of the  gathering. Although on most of the occasions the whole of the ardas is recited,  at certain occasions a shorter version of it is recited.

 Meanwhile, Sikhs in Finland have objected to the  change in the first stanza of the ardas. One of them said: “I don’t mind the 35  Bhagtas in the ardas, but the first part is from Guru Gobind Singh’s Dasam Bani,  Chandi Di Vaar and hence could not be changed”. 

 Akal Takht has received a number of petitions from  across the world describing the act of the Finland gurdwara as “a gross  violation of the Sikh maryada”. They have said the “self-styled Sikh scholars”  did not know that “Bhaugauti” is not the name of any god or goddess but means  “kirpan” (sword worn by a baptised Sikh).

 The Jathedar has appealed to the Sikh sangat not to  get carried away by the violation of the Sikh code by the Finland  gurdwara.


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## Hardip Singh (May 25, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> I agree with the views of Inder Singh ji because i am well aware of all this Hindu mythology and i have also written a blog to answer the wicked moves of RSS and some of our bretheren who have become serpentine beneath roses and axing their own faith in ignorance. Any one can visit wesikhsnothindus.blogspot.com where i have tried to expose RSS moves to submerge Sikh religion in Hinduism.


 
Respected Ajmer Singh jee,
This was exactly what I had to say in one of my replies. I have nothing in personal with M/s badals or Sarnas. But their wrong doings are what I am bothered about, like atrue Sikh. And nothing else. God bless with you with a fine health so that you can do more vigorously for the great SIKH cause.
Moreover, kindly mail us your contact number in Delhi. I am also in delhi and will like to see you regarding the AB matter.
Regards & Guru fateh.


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## SinghJaskaran (May 25, 2009)

I was able to get a bit of word with my Chacha ji staying in Finland. He confirmed that Yes the ardaas in Gurudwara of Helsinki was / has been changed and said that it was some preacher who visited to Helsinki, Finland from Punjab, India and made them do the changes, to which my another chacha ji strongly condemned the act done by the preacher and said in straight and simple words that no one can change the ardaas all by himself.
For more information I am still trying to follow up on this.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 25, 2009)

There is a Society callaed the Shiromani Sikh Samaaj in FARIDABAD INDIA that celebrates the 14th of EVERY MONTH with a gathering and this Organsiation has been using this CHANGED ARDASS for the past FIVE YEARS....right under the Noses of the Takhat jathedars....and this News is regularly carried in the ROZANA SPOKESMAN Newspaper published from Chandigarh Punjab.
RECENTLY the Jathedars have coem out and declared that THEY NEVER passed any Hukamnma agaisnt the Rozana Spokesman Newspapaer - and it was wrong propoganda that they did. Their Hukamna was agaisnt the EDITOR joginder Singh and NOT the Newspaper per se. The Editor has never accepted this and ALL ALONG the propoganda was that the Rozana Spokesman is an anti panthic, and it has a Hukmnama agaisnt it.
The Jathedars shoudl SUMMON the FARIDABAD SIKHS first before going after the Helsinki Sikhs...isnt Faridabad Haryana NEARER than Finland.
Rozana Spokesman Online........ for thsi report in Punjabi.


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## Inder singh (May 25, 2009)

Those who disown bani of tenth master are disowning tenth master also. They automatically walk out of sikhism as they are violating Sikh rehat maryada. 

It is sheer hypocricy on part of these people as they claim to abide by Sikh rehat maryada and at the same time they are flouting it.

These people have very little knowledge of history. They need to know that many of bhagats whose bani is in SGGS ji have bani that was not included in Guru Granth sahib by Guru Arjan Dev ji. The reason was that bani did not match with sikh philosophy. Only that part of bani is in Guru Granth sahib that matches sikh criteria. So before including their name in ardas they should have pondered over this.


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## spnadmin (May 25, 2009)

SinghJaskaran ji

This is exactly what I predicted in an earlier post had been the problem once the facts started to come out. The sangat is isolated and was manipulated by an external agent with ideas of his own. I think this can be straightened out in due time. However, every sangat has to be vigilant about these kinds of pressures. It can happen in the blink of an eye.

Thank you


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## SinghJaskaran (May 25, 2009)

I know aad ji.. that due to isolation the sangat is not so vigilant about such kind of people and things.. Because they have kind of made a world of their own in that small country and sort of breaking all the ties from the heritage and the culture which is now being left behind and can also be seen in the way most of the sikh children or any other India's religion children being brought up in the west. we hope that the myths of the other sects are removed and are brought to normalcy that no writings of any Guru saheban or any peer sahebs can be changed and moulded in any way they want. thats all i would like from the other sects. 
The hand has started to open itself. we need to make it a fist again in order fight the evils of our own and our society.


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## spnadmin (May 25, 2009)

SinghJasrakan ji

I wish you chacha and all of your family there in Finland good fortune with kirpaa of the Guru. Thanks for the news.


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## SinghJaskaran (May 25, 2009)

Giving the news is somewhat my right to try to bring to justice who do such things to our Khalsa Panth!! Thank you so much aad ji.. Appreciated your concern and wishes!!

Thanks again!!


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## G. GOBIND SINGHJI CHELA (May 25, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Sat Sri Akaal with ur permission,

Ardaas is conversation between gurmukh and waheguru.In Sikhism there is no hard and fast rule.Anybody can do ardaas anytime and anywhere,even when you are waiting for a bus.Why are we making ardaas so complicated,that is right and that is wrong.Waheguru can even understand a worms request and what about human being.We just have to talk as sincerely as we can to waheguru using any language and I'm sure Waheguru will fulfill it.That is ARDAAS.

Sat Sri Akaal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 26, 2009)

anyway..looks like a mountain is being made out of a molehill...
as it emerges that this could be a small sangat in an isolated place...arranged to "incite" the takhat jathedars to take action...
Thousands of maryada violations take place in Punjab daily Basis....Kanna te joon nahin sarkdee...no one is bothered..least of all the Jathedars.....
to me it all looks like a chain/jigsaw....first the harmandir sahib incidents whereby some one sat on Guru Jis peerha...then someone else poured some substance over the SGGS at AKAL TAKHAT...then the Vienna Incident..and violent reaction all over Punjab....and the Jathedars double quick action.."greased lightning" !!..some "ONE" is trying to upset the Apple Cart...hidden hands and hidden agendas....DEH DHAREE GURUS are involved in each incident..and Badal matha tek at BEAS three DAYS before Harmandir Sahib !!! and while Harmandir Sahib cannot have a DIRECT ROAD built..Beas Dera can have another ONE super Highway besides the one already built....THREE in Total !! Beas is definitley MORE important than the Golden Temple !!! Conspiracy theory ?? maybe//and maybe nOT !!


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## singhisking101 (May 26, 2009)

today its our ardas, tomorrow the rehat and God knows what next. And by omitting the Dasam Granth they are eliminating the Bani of our tenth guru Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Is there some reason for that. I understand their argument but the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is really interesting and their arguments are not justified for their actions.


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

singhisking ji

You are IMHO making a good point. Dasam Granth is interesting. And when taking the time to read it and compare what the 10th Guru has said to the Bani of Adi Granth, then one can see how Dasam Granth echoes Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj in many ways and very dramatically. It is a good and supportive experience.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 26, 2009)

This thread has many things that need deep and open discussions. I thank Gyani ji for starting this thread which seemed mundane at first  because  come to think of it, who cares about one Gurdwara in Finland adding something to the Ardaas but then the wildfire of Gurmat understanding and interacting started which is the main idea of Sikhi, that is to discuss the disagreements openly.

In order for this discussion to happen, we should all have an open mind then only we can understand others' viewpoints no matter how much they are opposite to ours.

I would like to make a few points here.

1. What is Ardaas?

For me, Ardaas is an inner contemplation of thanks, strength and focus of our endeavours of whatever lies ahead or and what has been accomplished so far. That is the beauty of Ardaas. It can be done anytime,anywhere, alone, with people etc etc. And Ardaas can contain any wording provided we stick to our innerself.


2. What kind of Ardaas did our Gurus recite? 

The answer to number 2 is that no one knows. 

I asked the following sometimes ago in another forum which I would like to share with all of you:



> Sadh Sangat,
> 
> We are all aware that Ardaas plays a very important part in our Sikhi
> way of life.I have always been puzzled by Ardaas that we
> ...


 
Many people in the thread have insisted that the Ardaas was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji which I consider nothing but sheer arrogance laced with ignorance on their part. We all know our only Guru is SGGS. If Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted to add anything from himself,as history is the proof that he was a polyglot and a great poet, then he would have done so. The fact remains that he did not. 

Our 10th Guru sacrificed his own Father, his 4 sons for the sake of justice for ALL, added his father, Guru Teg Bahadur ji's Gurbani in the SGGS and last but not the least, he gave us the true directions- the roadmap- by establishing the Khalsa Panth.

If we ponder on the above then we have nothing but great respect, admiration and we are at awe by the courage and vision of our 10th Guru. 

3. Why would this great Guru call himself Patshah, Patshahee Dasveen(10th) when we know none of our Gurus called themselves Patshahs in SGGS? None of the saloks written by our Gurus in SGGS start with the word Patshahee Pehli,Dooji etc. etc.

In my opinion it is disrespectful to Guru Gobind Singh ji when we decide and claim some writings to be his without his permission and autorization. 

Who are we to do that and how dare we?

So, let us not try to play Guru Gobind Singh by claiming that the Ardaas that we recite was written by him when he did not indicate that anywhere and once again, we need to remind ourselves as often as possible that Guru Gobind Singh ji could have added his vision in words in SGGS if he wanted to, but the fact remains that he did not so thinking or claiming otherwise would be undermining our 10th Guru. If we analyze the Ardaas from the Gurmat prespective what we claim was written by our 10th Guru, we will notice that it is against the Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the SGGS.

Now, regarding adding and changing Ardaas in Finland, I personally think this is not right as it has come to our knowledge that some person perhaps who calls himself a Sant asked the Gurdwara to do that.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Many people in the thread have insisted that the Ardaas was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji which I consider nothing but sheer arrogance laced with ignorance on their part. We all know our only Guru is SGGS. If Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted to add anything from himself,as history is the proof that he was a polyglot and a great poet, then he would have done so. The fact remains that he did not.
> 
> Our 10th Guru sacrificed his own Father, his 4 sons for the sake of justice for ALL, added his father, Guru Teg Bahadur ji's Gurbani in the SGGS and last but not the least, he gave us the true directions- the roadmap- by establishing the Khalsa Panth.
> 
> ...




Tejwant ji -- Thank you for  passionate yet incisive analysis. There is a reason why many people in the thread are claiming that Sri Guru Gobind Singh wrote Ardaas. Both Wikipedia and Sikhiwiki make this claim -- i.e., that the first part of Ardaas was written by the 10th Nanak -- in a straightforward way (and BTW, the articles are identical therefore written by the same individual/s). However, various Sikh Scholars doubt that this is the case. 

Macauliffe did not translate the 2nd and 3rd lines in his book History of the Sikhs. Dr. Gopal Singh, the first to translate the Sri Guru Granth into English, never translated the 1rst 3 lines of Ardaas inn his own translation of the prayer. Moreover Dr. Tharam Singh has aruged that the words Padhsahi 10 (10th Guru) were added to the 1rst pauree. Dr. Baldev Singh speculates, based on the writings of Bhai Kahan Singh, inexplanation of the word bhagauti,  that the invocation to Chandi may have been added after the death of Bhai Mani Singh, "at the time these so-called _Bachittar Natak Granths_ first surfaced." http://www.sikhspectrum.com/112005/ardas.htm  Or by implication forgeries of Dasam Granth. Dr. Baldev Singh's own bias may be reflected in the materials quoted in the previous sentence. However, he is basing his interpretation on the fact that the 1rst pauree in part is a reduction of the hymn to Chandi that may pre-date the 10th Nanak.

So there is confusion about the authorship of Ardaas. After noting the widely different arguments about the authorship of Ardas, the confusion in the thread makes a certain amount of sense.


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

> Many people in the thread have insisted that the Ardaas was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji which I consider nothing but sheer arrogance laced with ignorance on their part. We all know our only Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted to add anything from himself,as history is the proof that he was a polyglot and a great poet, then he would have done so. The fact remains that he did not.



If bani of Guru gobind singh is not in SGGS ji, it does not mean that it has no significance.It is as holy as any composition of our other gurus irrespective of the fact whether it is included in SGGS or not.

If people have proof that ardas is not from the pen of tenth master , they should cite here from sikh history otherwise it is a personal heretic opinion.





> 3. Why would this great Guru call himself Patshah, Patshahee Dasveen(10th) when we know none of our Gurus called themselves Patshahs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? None of the saloks written by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji start with the word Patshahee Pehli,Dooji etc. etc.



Just because his bani starts with patshahi 10 does not make the writing spurious. Tomorrow some ignorant head may say that why he was wearing kalgi.



> In my opinion it is disrespectful to Guru Gobind Singh ji when we decide and claim some writings to be his without his permission and autorization.
> 
> Who are we to do that and how dare we?



Akal takhat is overseeing authority for sikh religious matters.That is why by a Hukamnama akal takhat has declared that those who question dasam granth are mischief mongers.




> f we analyze the Ardaas from the Gurmat prespective what we claim was written by our 10th Guru, we will notice that it is against the Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



Let us know what is against gurmat.Just saying so does not help. May lack of understanding on the part of some may be reason for such an opinion.



> Now, regarding adding and changing Ardaas in Finland, I personally think this is not right as it has come to our knowledge that some person perhaps who calls himself a Sant asked the Gurdwara to do that.



They were advised by none other but by a chela of kala afghana Inder Ghagha who has been earlier excommunicated by akal takhat for passing adverse remarks against Guru nanak dev ji and Guru Arjan Dev ji in his book " Sada bera aiyon Garkia".


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

> So there is confusion about the authorship of Ardaas. After noting the widely different arguments about the authorship of Ardas, the confusion in the thread makes a certain amount of sense.



There  is no confusion about ardas. We have three digitised copies of manuscripts of Dasam Granth in uSA. Two of those date to 1697 and 1698. Both include ardas and hand written pages ( Khas patras ) of tenth master.


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

Inder ji

In response.

If bani of Guru gobind singh is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji, it does not mean that it has no significance.It is as holy as any composition of our other gurus irrespective of the fact whether it is included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or not.

Our Ardaas is our holy prayer. I agree -- nothing regarding authorship takes away from that truth. 

If people have proof that ardas is not from the pen of tenth master , they should cite here from Sikh history otherwise it is a personal heretic opinion.

It is impossible to prove a negative. You yourself stated that even if the Ardaas is not by our gurus it remains a holy and significant statement of Sikhism and beliefs of Sikhs. Though it is impossible to prove a negative -- that Gobind Singh may not be the author of the first pauree -- it is possible to question a positive -- question whether the 10th master did write the 1rst pauree based on consistency with other Sikh scriptures. That is essentially the approach taken by Bhai Kahan Singh. That is essentially the argument of Tejwant ji. No one however is disputing that Ardaas is inviolate and would take more than a self-styled mahant traveling to Finland to come up with an acceptable revision. 

There  is no confusion about ardas.

Who is confused about ardaas? Not me! There is confusion regarding the authorship of the first pauree.


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

Aaad 002

Bhai kahan singh nabha had no doubt on ardas or chandi di vaar else he would not be quoting it in his famous book" Hum Hindu Nahin". Dr Baldev singh is a chela of kala afghana sect. so i will think many times before believing what he says.

The point here is that panth accepts ardas and these heretics are no one to cause confusion among sikhs.If they do not believe in ardas they can form another sect. It is not ardas only dasam bani forms part of our nitnem, and amrit ceremony.


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

Inder ji

The point here is that panth accepts ardas and these heretics are no one to cause confusion among Sikhs.If they do not believe in ardas they can form another sect. It is not ardas only dasam bani forms part of our nitnem, and Amrit ceremony.         

I agree 100 percent. I said so some posts back in this thread.


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

> It is impossible to prove a negative.



If there is no proof for negative then how did negative take birth? Just from the top of head. Have these people analysed the writing as a whole in Dasam Granth? Have they analysed the invocation of chandi di vaar. Invocation defines the belief of writer. Is Durga eulogised in invocation? If not then why they are making blasphemous statements?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 26, 2009)

Jios..BUT...
1. FACTS are facts....in 1708..and NOW..and Forever.

2. IN GURMATT...( Sikhism) there has ALWAYS been ONLY ONE GURU on the Gurgadee of NANAK...even when  Guru Nanak ji was ALIVE....and had handed over the GURGADEE offcially to Bhai Lehna Ji..ONLY GURU ANGAD JI sat on the THRONE of Nanak Ji. ( Guur Nanak ji left for Sachkhand a few days after bestowing Gurgadee on Guru Angad ji)....THAT is the DAY OF GURGADEE of Guru Angad Ji and His "reign" begins. ( it doesnt matter that Guru Nanak Ji is still alive )
2a. Guru Arjun Ji also bestowed Gurgadee to Guur Hargobind Ji before going to Lahore for His Martyrdom...

2b. Guru Teg bahadur Ji also bestowed Gurgadee on GobindRai before He left for delhi for His Martyrdom.
So its is an undeniable FACT that there has been and will always be ONLY ONE GURU....and that GURU from 1708 is GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI. Therefore GURBANI is that which is contained in our Present GURU. Period. It is GURBANI that we Sikhs have NO AUTHORITY to change/modify/add/subtract/whatever in any way.

3. SGGS is GURU and SGGS is the Embodiment of ALL TEN GURUS that came before 1708. SGGS is the NANAK-GOBIND SINGH COLLECTIVE !! No GURU is left out simply because His "gurbani" is NOT included in SGGS...Guru Hargobind Ji, Guru Har rai Ji, and Guru Harkrishan Ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji are also in the SGGS as they belong to the Gurgadee of Nanak Ji...And thus this is why when we BOW to SGGS and acknowledge sggs as our ONE and ONLY GURU..is becasue ALL TEN Gurus are represented in SGGS as ONE. DASSAN PATSHAIHAN DEE JYOT.

4. To make SGGS even MORE VISHAAL....and UNIVERSAL...in His Greatness..GURU NANAK JI SAHIB decided to GIVE EQUAL IMPORTANCE to OTHER GOD MEN....the 35 Bhagats, Bards, Sunder Ji, etc etc by incorporating their "GURBANI" with His own Teachings as He went on his travels COLLECTING these...and then GURU ARJUN JI gave them a permanent place of HONOUR by placing thei GURBANI in the SGGS. THus NOW SGGS also has the GURBANI and JYOT of all these God Men..the Bhagats, the Bhatts, the Bards Satta and Balwand Ji..and Sunder Ji. The SGGS bestowed Gurgadee by Guru Gobind Singh ji in 1708 in the Presence of the Sangat of Khalsa panth and Panj Piyaraes is Truly UNIVERSAL..reflecting the CREATOR to which the Khalsa panth Belongs.

3. It is also an undeniable FACT that Guru Gobind Singh Ji...although being a Poet par excellence in so many varied languages...DECIDED TO NOT INCLUDE A SINGLE LINE OF HIS POETRY IN THE SGGS. PERIOD. Guru Gobind Singh ji certianly had the Opportunity...as He had the entire SGGS REWRITTEN at Damdma Sahib and He took thsi opportunity to INSERT the GURBANI of his father Guru teg bahadur Jiat the VARIOUS PLACES in the Various RAAGS already positioned by Guru Arjun Ji Sahib...Guru Teg bahadur Ji wrote GURBANI in all the Raags...so His Gurbani appears throughout the SGGS...and NOT just towards the END as it would be logical IF His Gurbani was added LAST !! NO..His GURBANI is all over the SGGS in the appropruate places and that is PROOF that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had the time and the inclination and He made the DECISION to INCLUDE that GURBANI consciously...and that He also made the SAME DECISION to KEEP ALL HIS OWN WRITINGS OUT OF SGGS.

5. COPIES of this Bir of SGGS were Made by Baba deep Singh Ji and Bhai mani Singh Ji and despatched to all the Takhats and its this BIR that is parkash in ALL Gurdawras the world over. Guru Gobind Singh Ji NEVER "attached" piggy back etc any other granth to the HOLY GURU GRANTH..yet we have some who have done so..and are trying to justify that sacrilege as well. They attach this "sacrilege" to the August name of Bhai mani Singh . WHY would the person who SCRIBED the SGGS in Guru Gobind Singh ji presence..later on go about ATTACHING another granth of equal pages into one huge granth ?? Defies normal logic. Are we trying to foist our own faulty beleifs on Bhai mani Singh Ji..
The FACT is that the "dsm" Granth may..."look like the guru...seem like the guru..feel like the guru.. even come from the guru..read like the gurbani...etc etc BUT its NOT the GURU...that HONOUR goes to SGGS. THUS the DSM granth CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be ATTACHED to SGGS and parakshed/kept anywhere..even a private Library.  ( BTW this look like seem like quote has  a malaysian background..recently a Royal Commission of Enquiry was set up in malaysia to find out the truth about allegations that Judicial appointments were fixed....at this enquiry a Video Tape of a Famous Lawyer was tendered as evidence...in it he was clearly seen fixing judges appointments...BUT when his turn came in the wittness box...he said..."the person in the Tape..certainly LOOKS like me, Sounds like me...BUT its NOT ME !!!!."...).

Elsewhere Tejwant Ji ahs given an excellent piece on the Ardass..He makes convincing arguments.
The Ardass we recite today is MAN MADE and may be adulterated. About the One and only GURBANI that is CERTIFIED  PURE and adulteration FREE is the SGGS. The "Bhagauti..the Ardass..in SGGS is entirely different from what we recite....about time we took stock and rectified the situation.
A Comprehensive study into the matter is warranted . Blind Faith was NEVER a part of Gurmatt anyway.

I DONT fall for the.."today its ardass..tomorrow..that and then that..etc etc" arguments. Whats got to be fixed..must be allolowed to be fixed...and what DOESNT NEED FIXING..has no fear of any disturbance.. Some are even going as far as saying..all thsi puts the Guru Khalsa Panth in danger...NO WAY. The Guru Khalsa Panth belongs to WAHEGURU and its FOUNDATIONS are set in the BLOOD of Shaeeds....hundreds of thousands of them....and the roots now reach the pataal..the nether regions..impossible to uproot...not today and not tomorrow...BUT the WEEDS in the Field can and should be UPROOTED and destroyed. These WEEDS got time to grow and prosper simply becasuse the Khalsa was busy fighting for its survival and had no time to guard its literature and Gurdwaras...


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

> It is impossible to prove a negative. You yourself stated that even if the Ardaas is not by our gurus it remains a holy and significant statement of Sikhism and beliefs of Sikhs.



As far as i remember i did not write ardas beginning is not from Guru sahiban? If you believe i did please show me.


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> *If there is no proof for negative then how did negative take birth?* Just from the top of head. *Have these people analysed the writing as a whole in Dasam Granth?* Have they analysed the invocation of chandi di vaar. Invocation defines the belief of writer. *Is Durga eulogised in invocation?* If not then why they are making blasphemous statements?



Inder ji

You mixed some things up here.  *How did negative take birth?* I have no idea what you are asking i that statement. Are you asking about negative attitudes?  If you are asking for *evidence that Guru Gobind Singh did not write the first pauree*, then your question is illogical. There can never be evidence to prove the absence of something. Think about it.

Now when you ask *have these people analyzed the writing as a whole in Dasam Granth,* the answer is some have and some haven't. Who are you referring to when you say some people? 

*Is Durga eulogised in invocation?
*Most respsonsible scholars do not believe *that Durga is being eulogized, including Dr. Baldev Singh and Bhai Kahan Singh, *as well as *Dr. Gopal Singh,* based on my understanding of the article cited. And other reading I have done. In fact there are many who argue that bhagauti should not be translated as sword.


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> As far as i remember i did not write ardas beginning is not from Guru sahiban? If you believe i did please show me.



Inder ji,

There is an old African proverb that says, “When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you.”


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

I may point out in the beginning that there is no dispute that SGGS ji is guru of sikhs. People to divert the topic keep on writing as if Dasam Granth has taken over guruship from SGGS ji. This is like creating a phantom when there is none,

If these people have so much respct for tenth master that they beleive in his verbal edict to obey SGGS ji as Guru of sikhs then why they are so allergic to accord respect to his bani? This is like having best of both.

People say that so and so say that ardas is adulterated? Can they furnish a refrence in support of their claim. There is a lot of contemporary literature of that period. have they raed that literature. Making statements without back up is not proper.

So far we have one central religious authority over sikhs and that is akal takhat. That accords recognition to Dasam bani. All have to oibey that. There is no if and but here.


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## spnadmin (May 26, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> I may point out in the beginning that there is no dispute that SGGS ji is guru of sikhs. People to divert the topic keep on writing as if Dasam Granth has taken over guruship from SGGS ji. This is like creating a phantom when there is none,
> 
> If these people have so much respct for tenth master that they beleive in his verbal edict to obey SGGS ji as Guru of sikhs then why they are so allergic to accord respect to his bani? This is like having best of both.
> 
> ...



Inder ji

I join you in decrying the problem of creating a phantom when there is no phantom.


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

Let me reteirate in the beginning that all sikhs agree that SGGS ji is our Guru. There is no dispute over this unless some vested interests want to create phantoms out of nowhere and pit one granth against the other.

nevertheless Dasam granth has bani of our tenth master.It is our resepected scripture al along in sikh history. We just can not ignore this. Writings of our Gurus is bani . So is dasam granth.

Some people are making claim that ardas pauri is adulterated. We have contemporary sikh literature of that period. Do they mention that? If they have read that please let us know.

Akal takhat is central sikh authority over religious issues. They accord recognition to Dasam bani. If some do not want to obey that the only alternative for them is form a new sect like radhasoami,sindhis, etc. They are the ones who disown tenth amster.


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## Inder singh (May 26, 2009)

aad0002 ji

This may be interesting for you to read

Charles malcolm was a British general posted with Governor General of India during Sikh rule.Holkar ,a maratha chief, had taken shelter with maharaja Ranjit singh. Charles Malcolm came to Amritsar in 1805 in pursuit of Holkar.


 While at Amritsar he was a witness to a Gurmatta conducted at Amritsar in 1805. Later he wrote a book “Sketch of sikhs” in 1812. On page 120 to 123 , he writes the presence of Dasam granth at Gurmatta

 quote

 Guru-mata
 When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs.
 When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: “Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!” on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: “The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united.” This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab.
 (pages. 120-123)
 ________________________
 *Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India (1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826),and Life of Lord Clive (1836).

 From Sketch of sikhs by Charles Malcolm


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## GillAUS (May 26, 2009)

So-called 'scholars' and 'professors' cannot even begin to fathom the knowledge that has flowed from the pen of the Tenth Master.

They way I look at it is that whatever these doubters don't understand, they dismiss as being false.

Most Brahmgianis will never doubt the Bani of the Tenth Master. We should be looking at these individuals because they have the knowledge of God. The knowledge of worldly scholars cannot compare.

In my opinion, yes it is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is our Guru. It is also the Guru for mankind. That is why its contents is purely spiritual in nature, and are not limited to Sikhi alone. It contains a message for all paths to follow.

Sri Dasam Granth is the temporal, rather than spiritual scripture. It is the scripture that addresses the Khalsa.

Putting it another way, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is like Harimandir Sahib - with four doors and welcoming people of all backgrounds. Sri Dasam Granth is like the Akal Takht. It addresses spirituality in a temporal and worldly manner.


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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)

> Putting it another way, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is like Harimandir Sahib - with four doors and welcoming people of all backgrounds. Sri Dasam Granth is like the Akal Takht. It addresses spirituality in a temporal and worldly manner.



Very well said.

Gilding of Sri harmandir sahib was done in late eighteenth century under the supervision of Lehna singh majithia. At the entrance door is inscription of pauri of ardas from the pen of tenth master.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 27, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for responding to my post. I hope we keep an open mind so we can discuss this from the Gurmat stand point rather than from some personally cultivated beliefs.



> If bani of Guru gobind singh is not in SGGS ji, it does not mean that it has no significance.It is as holy as any composition of our other gurus irrespective of the fact whether it is included in SGGS or not.


 
First of all let us talk about the facts. 

1.Only Guru Gobind Singh ji knows what he wrote. No one else can make the claim about his writings no matter how much he/she claims to have the scholarly skills. 

2. Only our 10th Guru knows why he decided not to share what he wrote. We all know through history that he had many poets with him at Poanta Sahib who also must have written a lot of poetry. One wonders where is that! 

As I mentioned in my post that our 10th Guru was a polyglot and a great poet. So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision



> If people have proof that ardas is not from the pen of tenth master , they should cite here from sikh history otherwise it is a personal heretic opinion.


 
I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in  SGGS. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative. 



> Just because his bani starts with patshahi 10 does not make the writing spurious. Tomorrow some ignorant head may say that why he was wearing kalgi.


 
Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.



> Akal takhat is overseeing authority for sikh religious matters.That is why by a Hukamnama akal takhat has declared that those who question dasam granth are mischief mongers.


 
Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of SGGS in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is  disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and  the followers of SGGS should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.



> Let us know what is against gurmat.Just saying so does not help. May lack of understanding on the part of some may be reason for such an opinion.


 
That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep SGGS as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.



> They were advised by none other but by a chela of kala afghana Inder Ghagha who has been earlier excommunicated by akal takhat for passing adverse remarks against Guru nanak dev ji and Guru Arjan Dev ji in his book " Sada bera aiyon Garkia".


 
Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to? 

Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.

Let us just focus on the subject in the thread rather than false accusations. This will help us have an open mind which will result in making us better Sikhs.

I hope to have a civilised discussion with you which is the Gurmat way.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)

> So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision



tejwant ji

His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.





> I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative.



Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.






> Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.



The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.





> Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and  the followers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.



Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.





> That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.



Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?





> Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?
> 
> Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji

Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.

This is the proof of my claim. please keep abreast of news before claim.
 
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

Sikh missionary excommunicated
for blasphemous writings
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 22
Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.

Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.

The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.  











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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)

> So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision



tejwant ji

His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.





> I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative.


Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.






> Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.


The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.





> Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and  the followers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.


Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.





> That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.


Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?





> Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?
> 
> Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.
> 
> ...


Tejwant ji

Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.

This is the proof of my claim. please keep abreast of news before claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

 

Sikh missionary excommunicated
for blasphemous writings
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 22
Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.

Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.

The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.  




> So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision



tejwant ji

His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.





> I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative.


Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.






> Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.


The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.





> Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and  the followers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.


Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.





> That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.


Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?





> Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?
> 
> Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.
> 
> ...


Tejwant ji

Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.

This is the proof of my claim. please keep abreast of news before claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

 

Sikh missionary excommunicated
for blasphemous writings
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 22
Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.

Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.

The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.  











​ 



​



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## dalbirk (May 27, 2009)

*Here is good article on this topic . *


*Sikh Articles - Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Hindu Goddesses Kalika and Bhagauti *


*Guru Sahib and Kalika and Bhagauti*


*Based on Hum Hindu Nahin by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha*​
*Bijla Singh*
In this article, I will attempt to clear some of the points that organizations such as the RSS have brought forward. Though most Sikhs who have knowledge of our glorious history and enlightening Bani can easily refute the points made by the RSS, however others who are new to Sikhi might become disillusioned upon hearing the parchar of the RSS. Two points that are commonly brought forward by the RSS will be countered using Gurbani and Sikh history. The two points, which this article will focus on, are, Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped Kalika Devi (Chandi Goddess) and the second being that he worshipped Bhagauti (Durga Goddess). I hope that the proofs, which will be provided in this article, will ensure that those who have limited knowledge on Gurbani and Sikh history will not fall prey to the parchar of nefarious organizations such as the RSS.

*The RSS makes the claim that while Sikhs say that Gurmat condemns the worship of gods and goddesses, Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped goddesses, the proof of this is contained in Bachittar Natak.*
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥2॥ 
_“Mahakal Kalika Aradhi”_
_In addition, it appears that the Guru wrote Chandi Charitar in praise of goddess Chandi and has described the importance of its recitation, e.g._
ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਸੁਨਹੈ ਨਰ, ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥232॥ (ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ ਪਾ: 10)
ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਏਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥55॥ (ਵਾਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਪਾ: 10)
*The RSS has purposely or accidentally over looked the message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, which is contained in the Dasam Granth.*
ਨਮੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਿਆਤਾ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥52॥
_Salutation to Thee O Supreme Knower Lord! Salutation to Thee O Universal Mother Lord! ||52||_
In the above quotation, Kalika does not mean anything different from Eternal. To dispel all the doubts we show the condemnation of the worship of goddess in these six statements.
*a)*Guru Gobind Singh Ji has ordained the Sikhs:
ਬਿਨ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨ ਕਿਰਤਮ ਮਾਨੋ ॥
_Except Waheguru (God), do not accept anyone as the ruler and controller of the world._
Moreover, it is written in the Vaar (ode) of Chandi:
ਤੈਂ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
_O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons._
It proves that there is a Creator of Durga and she is His Creature. Is it possible that the Guru counsels his Sikhs one thing and he himself does the totally opposite? It is not possible.

*b)*Guru Sahib makes this supplication and promise:
ਤੁਮਹਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੋਈ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਧਯਾਊਂ ॥ ਜੋ ਬਰ ਚਹੋਂ ਸੁ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਪਾਊਂ ॥
_I may remember none else except Thee; and obtain all the required boons from Thee. (Chaupai Sahib)_
ਇਕ ਬਿਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਸੋ ਨ ਚਿਨਾਰ ॥
_Do not accept anyone except God as God. (Shabad Hazaray)_
ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥
_I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is useful at all places. (Bachittar Natak)_
ਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥38॥
_I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I repeat the Name of anyone else. ||38|| (Bachittar Natak)_
From the above quotes, it is clear that Guru Sahib worshipped none other than one Supreme Creator. Is it possible that Guru Sahib acts against his own promise?

*c)*The author of a Granth writes the name of the deity he worships in the beginning of the Granth. There he writes the invocation. Scholars can tell which deity the author worships from the invocation. 
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has always used the invocation:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
_One Eternal, True, accessible by the grace of the Guru._
ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥ 
_One True Eternal, Victory to the Wonderful Lord._
Then how can anyone conclude that Guru Sahib worshipped Durga? It simply never happened.

*d)*Sikhs believe that the Ten Gurus were in reality One. Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s ideas and objectives were the same as those of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. This is written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
ਭਰਮੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
_The angelic beings, goddesses and gods are deluded by doubt. (Ang 258)_
ਦੇਵੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੈ ਮਰਮ ॥
_The goddesses do not know His mystery. (Ang 894)_
ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥3॥
ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥4॥
_One who worships the Great Goddess Maya will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3|| You are called the Primal Goddess. At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|| (Ang 874)_
Then Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself says in the Akal Ustat:
ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
_The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there._
Guru Ji further says:
ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਦਾਸੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅੰਧ ਅਗਿਆਨਾ ॥
_The blind, ignorant, self-willed manmukhs forsake their Lord and Master, and dwell on His slave Maya. (Ang 1138)_
Guru Angad Dev Ji describes the goddess as sweeper of the court of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Then how is it possible that a descendant of that tradition could go against the ideas of his ancestors and against his own writings and worship the goddess?

*e)*It has been established that Guru Gobind Singh Ji only worshipped One Eternal Waheguru and taught His Sikhs to do the same. Now, let us look at the Shabad and analyze it some.
The word ਕਾਲਕਾ does not refer to goddess Kalika but to the One Eternal Lord. The word in fact is a compound word, made up of two separate words. 
The first word is: ਕਾਲ_ - _Death
The second word is: ਕਾ_ - _of
This is not an attempt to break up words so Gurbani can be misinterpreted as in Guru Granth Sahib Ji the word ਕਾਲਿhas been used numerous times.
ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਭਉ ਕਾਲ ॥3॥
_Meditating, meditating in remembrance on the Lord, I am rid of the fear of death. ||3||_
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਵਸਿ ਕਾਲ ॥
_Those who have not met the Primal Being, the True Guru, are most unfortunate, and are subject to death._
Therefore, the line in correct form would be: ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲ ਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥_2_॥
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ_ - _Death
ਕਾਲਕਾ_- _of death
ਅਰਾਧੀ_ - _worshipped
This means that Guru Ji worshipped the One Supreme Power that is death of death. By reading the next lines, it becomes quite clear that these in fact are the correct meanings. 
ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥
_In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord._
It is a well-accepted belief in Sikhi as well as in Hinduism that a goddess is not Waheguru but His creation. If we assume that Guru Ji worshipped goddess then we must admit that before Guru Ji started meditating there were three forms in existence: Lord (Waheguru), Goddess (Kalika) and Guru Ji himself. After a long period of meditation, He became one with Waheguru, which means three forms then became two. However, what Guru Ji says totally contradicts this baseless theory. He clearly states that there were only two in existence: Himself and Waheguru. After meditation, Guru Ji merged with the Light of the true Lord and thus became one with Him. Therefore, two became one. This proves that the worship of goddesses by Guru Sahib never happened. Not only are these stories a fabrication of the truth but also they are a grave misinterpretation of the message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. 
*f)*Bhai Mani Singh Ji received his baptism from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and learned the meanings of Gurbani. He begins the Gyan Ratnavali with the invocation:
ਨਾਮ ਸਭ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵ ਹੈ । ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਂਵਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਿਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ, ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਸਿਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਨੂੰ ਆਰਾਧਦੇ ਹੈਨ, ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਭ ਵਿਘਨ ਨਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ।
_Name of God is gods of all. Some believe in goddess, some in Shiva and some others in Ganesha and other god. Sikhs of the Guru do not contemplate anybody else other than Sat Naam (True Name) that destroys all disturbances and imperfections. That is why Sat-Naam is invoked in the beginning. _
Had the Tenth Master believed in the goddess is it possible that His student Bhai Mani Singh Ji would write the above? Praise of the goddess is not the counsel of the Tenth Master. The work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is really a translation of “Durga Saptshati” in Markandya Purana. That is evident from Chandi Charittar as well.
ਸਤ ਸੈ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਯਹਿ ਪੂਰੀ ਭਈ ਹੈ ॥...॥_232_॥ 
_This is the end of the story of seven hundred. _
In fact, in the original Sanskrit text the ending is given with great detail. In brief:
ਦੇਵੀ ਕਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਇਸ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਔਰ ਨਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸਭ ਦੁਖ_, _ਪਾਪ_, _ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਦੁਸ਼ਮਨ_, _ਚੋਰ_, _ਰਾਜਾ_, _ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਔਰ ਅਗਨੀ_, _ਇੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਯੁੱਧ ਵਿਚ ਪੁਰਸ਼ਾਰਥ ਵਧਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਵੈਰੀ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ_, _ਮੁਕਤੀ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ_, _ਕੁਲ ਦਾ ਵਾਧਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਗ੍ਰਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਪੀੜਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ । ਰਾਖਸ਼_, _ਭੂਤ_, _ਪ੍ਰੇਤ_, _ਔਰ ਪਿਸ਼ਾਚਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਅੱਗ_, _ਚੋਰ_, _ਵੈਰੀ_, _ਸ਼ੇਰ_, _ਜੰਗਲੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਇੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਘਿਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ ਪਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਰਾਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਜੇ ਮਾਰਨ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇ ਅਥਵਾ ਕੈਦ ਹੋਵੇ_, _ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਤੂਫਾਨ ਆ ਜਾਵੇ_, _ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । (ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ) (ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਪਤਸ਼ਤੀ ਅ: _12 _ਸਲੋਕ _1-29)_
_Goddess says, he who listens to and recites daily her praise he loses fear of the thief, king, arms and fire. He becomes strong in battle, his enemies are destroyed. He gets emancipated, offspring multiply, troubles of the house go away, Rakhshas, and ghosts are destroyed. If one is surrounded by thieves, enemies, wild lions, elephants, one gets liberated. If under punishment of death from the king or sentenced for prison, there is storm in the sea, one is saved from all these troubles. Etc., etc. (Durga Saptshati Ch.12 Salok 1-29)_
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has covered all of this briefly in his translation:
ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿੱਤ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਹੈ ਨਰ ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥232॥
_For whatever purpose a person reads it or listens to it, the goddess will assuredly grant him that. ||232|| (Chandi Charittar)_
ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥
_And that person who sings it, will not take birth again. ||55|| (Vaar Chandi)_
The above given information, which is backed with Gurbani and Sikh History makes it crystal clear that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never worshipped the Kalika Devi. Now lets move on to claim number two, which is being put forward by the deceitful RSS and its cohorts.

*The RSS and like-minded Hindu organizations make the claim that at Ardaas (congregational prayer) Sikhs always recite:*
ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੈ...॥
_In the beginning I remember Bhagauti.._
_It clearly shows that in Khalsa Dharma there is worship of the goddess. In fact the word “Bhagauti” is ‘Bhagwati’, which means goddess. Guru Gobind Singh Ji used to write poetry in Persian script and hence Bhawati and Bhagauti are written in the same way. The writers of the Gurmukhi script, without understanding the concept pronunciation made it into Bhagauti._
In Gurmat Sudhakar the word ‘Bhagauti’ is discussed in details, which will remove the doubt of those spewing this anti Sikh propaganda and also of those gullible Sikhs who have fallen victim to the poison of the RSS. Here are a few questions that should satisfy the queries of those RSS minded individuals.
*a)*It is written in the Vaar of Chandi:
ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹ ਵਰ ਜਾਗਨ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਲਾਈ ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
_Durga held out her sword, appearing like a great lustrous fire; She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood._
If the word ‘Bhagauti’ means goddess then does, the above mean, “Durga caught hold of bhagauti (goddess) and hit her on the head of Raja Sumbh and she tasted his blood?” What kind of goddess is this bhagauti? Is she a tool that can or is used to hit others?

*b)*Guru Arjan Dev Ji composed the verses written below in the Persian language, which were then inscribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji. 
ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥…..
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥3॥
_The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God. He forsakes the company of all wicked people. All doubts are removed from his mind. He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all. In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away. The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme……… The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart. O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||_
Are the RSS and its cohorts saying that Bhai Gurdas Ji made an error while inscribing the words of Guru Arjan Dev Ji by writing bhagauti instead of bhagwati? They should pay attention to the above verses instead of blindly following the illogical interpretation given by their uneducated scholars and tell us is it Bhagauti or Bhagwati? Moreover, what is its gender? As one can see that, the word ‘Bhagauti’ here is used as masculine and hence it clearly cannot mean goddess.

*c)*In the Bhagauti Stotar (Panegyric verse) and in the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji it is written:
ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1)
_Hail to Siri (mighty) Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp._
ਨਾਉ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਲੋਹੁ ਘੜਾਇਆ ॥
_Name Bhagauti made of iron. (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Vaar 25)_
Does it mean that Bhagauti (goddess – if that is the meaning) is made of iron? In Dabistan-Mazahib, Mohsanfani has given an account to which he was an eyewitness. His narration of the account should make it clear to those who are foolishly blabbering and spreading the false propaganda (Sikhs worshipped the goddess) that the Sikhs never even respected this so-called goddess let alone worshiped her. 
ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਕੀਰਤਪੁਰ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ, ਜੋ ਤਾਰਾ ਚੰਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਸੀ । ਉਥੋਂ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਪੂਜਕ ਸਨ । ਪਹਾੜ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਇਕ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਮੰਦਰ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੂਜਣ ਲਈ ਆਸ ਪਾਸ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ । ਇਕ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨਾਮੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿਖ ਨੇ ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਤੋੜ ਸੁੱਟਿਆ । ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਦੀ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਾਰੇ ਫੈਲ ਗਈ । ਪਹਾੜੀ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪਾਸ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਿਕਾਇਤ ਕੀਤੀ । ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਬੁਲਾ ਕੇ ਪੁੱਛਿਆ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਕੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਤੋਂ ਪੁੱਛਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਕਿਸ ਨੇ ਤੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ । ਇਸ ਪਰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ ਕਿ ਹੇ ਮੂਰਖ! ਕਦੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਭੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ? ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਹੱਸ ਕੇ ਜਵਾਬ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਦੇਵੀ ਬੋਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ ਔਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਚਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਓਸ ਤੋਂ ਨੇਕੀ ਦੀ ਕੀ ਉਮੈਦ ਰਖਦੇ ਹੋ? ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਹੋ ਗਏ ।
_Guru Gobind Singh Ji reached Kiratpur, which was in the state of Raja Tara Chand. People of that state worshipped the goddess. On the hilltop there was a temple of Naina Devi (goddess) and people used to come there for worship. There was a Sikh Bhairo. He cut the nose of the goddess (idol). News spread all over, the hill kings complained to the Guru. The Guru enquired from the Sikh in front of the kings. He said, “It should be asked from the goddess who has cut her nose.” On this the kings said, “Bhairo, are you an idiot? You know the goddess cannot speak.” Bhairo laughed and replied, “if the goddess (idol) cannot speak and cannot protect the body then what good you expect from her?” Then the kings were quiet._
In conclusion it would be worthwhile to say something about the goddess to our Sikh brethren.
Dear followers of Guru Nanak: First of all, consider who the goddess was and what good she has done for the world? From the Puranas we learn that she was the daughter of the Himalayas and was married to Shiva. This is why she is known by various names such as Parvati and Girja. She helped the gods by fighting against the demons. She also helped Indra a number of times to gain his throne. Indra is the god who spent his entire day watching the dance and show of beautiful maidens and passed his time in pleasures. From the Puranas we learn that there was hardly a Rishi (saint) whom Indra did not disturb while they were meditating, by sending women whose characters were morally corrupt. Indra himself indulged with the wives of the saints, one such story is that of Aahaleya. What good did the goddess perform by helping a person whose character was so unbelievably corrupt and sinful? What reforms Indra introduce on taking his throne?
Some self-willed individuals say that they do not worship the daughter of Himalaya, i.e. the goddess with eight arms, but instead they believe in her power, which they say is the Eternal power of God. We ask them, is God’s power separate from Himself? Is it Eternal? If you accept Devi (goddess) separate from God, conscious, primal and eternal and worship that, then you do not accept Ik Oankar (One God) concept of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which is not Sikhi. If the goddess is not separate from God then to worship her by giving her a separate image is ignorance and lack of sagacity. If goddess is some transient (non-eternal) identity even then according to Sikh religion she is not worthy of worship. In principle, there is no justification for the worship of goddess in Sikhi. 
Dear Sikh brothers, in our religion there have been noble women such as Bibi Nanaki, Bibi Amro, Bibi Bhani Ji, Bibi Veero Ji, Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and Mayee Bhaag Kaur Ji. Study their lives, remember their good deeds, follow them and instruct your daughters to gain good qualities like theirs. Thereby your human birth will be fruitful and you will be worthy of being called the sons and daughters of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This will make you reformers in the country.
There is another goddess which Guru Gobind Singh Ji has blessed you with. Without that, you will be greatly distant from religion. By dint of that goddess you removed injustice from Punjab and what is now called India and you were respected by the Muslims and British. That goddess is:
ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ ਕਰੇ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਦਵੈ ਸੁਭਟ ਹਾਥ ਸੋਹੀ ॥
(ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1-2)
_Hail to Siri (mighty) Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp. That makes two of one and is beautiful in hand._
ਜੋਊ ਮੰਯਾਨ ਤੇ ਬੀਰ ਤੋ ਕੋ ਸੜੱਕੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਲੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਧ ਬੱਕੈ ਕੜੱਕੈ ॥
ਧਸੈ ਖੇਤ ਮੈਂ ਹਾਥ ਲੈ ਤੋਹਿ ਸੂਰੇ ॥ ਭਿਟੈ ਸਾਮੂਹੈ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਾਵੰਤ ਸੂਰੇ ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 21-24)
_When the brave take thee out of the sheath, they roar and pass the ocean of death. They advance in the battlefield and fight advancing forward. _
By turning your backs on these devis (noble women) you have offered many riches to these blood thirsty goddesses. If you had spent that on the well-being of your daughters, the name of the Sikhs would have been known like the sun all over the world and coming generations would have been grateful to you. Still there is time. If you want progress for your Quam (community) and country, establish schools and colleges where Sikh character can be infused, reinforced and nourish devis (noble women) who are strong, praise worthy and worthy of Dharma. By that your decedents will learn of the counsel of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and they will change the kali-age (age of darkness) into Satyug (age of truth). Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (May 27, 2009)

You know this thread topic is about Ardaas and not about about Dasam Granth per se. Just thinking out loud. And must say Dalbirk ji that your way of peeling back the layers of the onion is most fortifying to read this morning. Thank you.

Also I have taken out 2 duplicate messages. Thanks: aad0002


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 27, 2009)

Veer ji,    *ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕਾ **ਖਾਲਸਾ **ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕੀ **ਫਤਿਹ **ਜੀ ||*
My phone no is...9811857449
 I shall be pleased to be called upon by you. Thanks


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 27, 2009)

Veer Bijla Singh ji, I am your fan and admirer as i have read your article "Why khalistan: translated  it in Punjabi to be sent to all members and viewers who don't know English.
I have already written a blog wesikhsnothindus.blogspot.com and have to discuss, to answer many Hindus. I have also challenged RSS for an open debate.
Every Sikh shoul give a prompt reply to their wicked moves. Some of our Sikh brothers deliberately or unknowingly playing in their hands as their puppets. they are like serpentine beneath roses. Beware of them.


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## Astroboy (May 27, 2009)

I don't see a problem in changing some words in ardas. In fact ardas should be different for different ocassions. For eg, i would recommend to do without the part which mentions Sri Nankana Sahib when doing Antim Sanskar Ardas.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 27, 2009)

For all readers , everyone should read Amrit singh ji's meanings of Ardaas on SPN, all doubts will be cleared. see this quting of him:--
   Because this part of Sikh prayer is taken from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, no one has right to make changes in its text. In 'Sikh Reht Maryada', published by SGPC (*Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.*, there has been given a footnote, which says, "…the initial composition with "Pritham Bhagauti…" and the concluding phrases commemcing "Nanak Naam…" must not be altered. 

The Khalsa Panth added theses lines in first stanza of the Sikh prayer to remember the 10th Guru, "Daswaa{n} Paatshaah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji! Sabh thaayee{n} hoye sahaaye" (The tenth lord, revered Guru Gobind Singh, who comes to rescue everywhere).
And no changes in Dohra is allowed. "Guru Granth ji manyo Pargat guran ki deh !!
Jo prabh ko milbo chahey Khoj sabad main leh "


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## Tejwant Singh (May 27, 2009)

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.


First of all let me take the second part of your post first. You are accusing people who disagree with you having "conditioned and biased mind". 

Inder ji, personal insults not a Sikh make, and you have a habit of doing that which is sad. If you read my initial post in which  I asked for a civilised discussion. That is what our Gurus did when they interacted with others. So let us try to emulate our Gurus in this respect otherwise, it cheapens us to stoop to that low level which is  not the Sikhi way. I am sure you know about it. So when you disagree with me, which is ok, then please present your arguments  based on Gurmat values rather than these cheap shots which transmit ego,anger and insecurity rather than Gurmat wisdom.

Now to the first part.

Well, the thread is about Ardaas, we can talk about Dasam Granth in another thread while quoting lots of verses which are sexually explicit and hence anti Gurmat. But as you have inserted your favourite subject here, then one can presume you must have studied and thought about it a lot. So, let me ask you  a couple of questions.

1. Did Guru Gobind Singh give the name Dasam Granth? 
2. If yes, then why would he have a separate Granth just on his name and add his father, Guru Teg Bahadar's Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru?
3. If Dasam Granth is by our 10th Guru, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then why didn't  our other Gurus have their own Granths with their Gurbani rather than complying it together in SGGS, our only Guru?

I am sure you must have thought a lot about the above questions as you have been propagating about the Dasam Granth for a long time. So please respond in details and educate us with your wisdom.




> Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.


First of all, you being untruthful here. I never mentioned what you have accused me of here, which is again a shame coming from someone who calls himself a Sikh to be untruthful so blatantly, *"You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga".* Secondly, once again you are repeating the same thing without any proof in the first part of your post. Repeating something that you have no proof of can not make it true unless you are a used car salesman. So please do not treat our 10th Guru as a used car that you can peddle. it is disgraceful and disrespectful.




> The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.


Your above statement shows how you love to underestimate others. You have already presumed that I have not read Dasam Granth which is a shame on your part. Please do not hesitate to ask questions rather than jumping to your own conclusions about others. This is one of many Gurmat ideals that all of us as Sikhs should follow.




> Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.


Your first part of the statement is  absolutely correct and I agree with you. We also know that who wrote SGGS and the way it is written,, nothing can be added or taken out from it, but unfortunately, the second part is concocted. No one knows who wrote the so called Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how good a used car salesman you try to be.Once you have given the proof that Dasam Granth is written and put together by our 10th Guru, then we can discuss it further and the proof should come from the author, no one else. I am sure you know that.




> Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?


Inder ji, It is your who claim that the Ardaas is written by our 10th Guru. And  as it is your claim, then it is your duty to share with us what it says and if it compliments Gurmat values prescribed in the SGGS, our only Guru, hence our benchmark. I am looking forward to reading your interpretation, NOT literal translation copied and pasted from the internet. As mentioned before whatever you claim you must have studied a lot about it. Once again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You write in one of your earlier posts:

*"They were advised by none other but by a chela of kala afghana Inder Ghagha who has been earlier excommunicated by akal takhat for passing adverse remarks against Guru nanak dev ji and Guru Arjan Dev ji in his book " Sada bera aiyon Garkia".*"

My response to your above post was:

*"Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to? 

Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.

Let us just focus on the subject in the thread rather than false accusations. This will help us have an open mind which will result in making us better Sikhs.

I hope to have a civilised discussion with you which is the Gurmat way.*   "


In order to respond to my above statement you have given the following news clipping:



> Tejwant ji
> 
> Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.
> 
> ...


Inder ji,

I do not know if these people  mentioned in the above news are the members of this forum. So your response has nothing to do with the people interacting with you here in this thread. Please stick to the conversation with the people here, otherwise the post becomes nothing but ranting through which no one can learn about Gurmat values and its ideals. So let us only address the people here.

In          Post: 142, you said the following about Inder Singh Ghagha:



> These gurnindaks have no knowledge of Sikh traditions. *Especially this Inder Ghagha who has been a communist in his life and was driver with Punja state electricity board is instigating ignorants to change Sikh traditions.*


Inder ji,

Is this the Sikhi way to demean others and call them ignorant because they are drivers? I am surprised at your attitude towards others. Is being a driver not a kirat prescribed by Guru Nanak? Can you please give us the list of kirats that you claim Guru Nanak gave us or is it your personal bias and discrimination which again is not a Sikhi way? 

 It seems from your posts and your accusations that you consider yourself superior to others where as Gurbani says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi". Do you believe and adhere to SGGS? If you did then you would not be biased.

Please elaborate your bias against others because they are drivers or involve in other kinds of kirats and explain it through Gurbani.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## GillAUS (May 27, 2009)

My opinion is that Guru Gobind Singh did not include his Bani into Sri Guru Granth Sahib because the tone and purpose of the majority of His writings are different to the overall tone of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Sri Dasam Granth deals with many issues, not only spiritual. To include such writings into Sri Guru Granth Sahib would have changed the aesthetics of it.

Moreover, I have read that another reason why Guru Gobind Singh's Bani remains separate is that only the Bani of the previous Guru can be added by the present Guru. As there was no physical Guru after Guru Gobind Singh, His Bani could not be included.

At the end of the day, we are mere mortals and do not have the capability to fathom why Guru Gobind Singh Ji chose not to include His works into Sri Guru Granth. Only the Tenth Master Himself knows His this.

Historically, the role of Guru Gobind Singh's Bani has been well entrenched by the Khalsa Panth. This can be seen by established practice (various Nihang Dals, Damdami Taksal etc.) as well as some historical accounts.

May the book of the Tenth Master continue to have its rightful role in Sikhi, alongside our Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They complement eachother and after all 'Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani'.


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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)

> Inder ji, personal insults not a Sikh make, and you have a habit of doing that which is sad. If you read my initial post in which I asked for a civilised discussion. That is what our Gurus did when they interacted with others. So let us try to emulate our Gurus in this respect otherwise, it cheapens us to stoop to that low level which is not the Sikhi way. I am sure you know about it. So when you disagree with me, which is ok, then please present your arguments based on Gurmat values rather than these cheap shots which transmit ego,anger and insecurity rather than Gurmat wisdom.


 
Tejwant ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

My remarks are no harsher than the ones that you wrote in your first post for me. Please see your language before accusing others. 




> Well, the thread is about Ardaas, we can talk about Dasam Granth in another thread while quoting lots of verses which are sexually explicit and hence anti Gurmat. But as you have inserted your favourite subject here, then one can presume you must have studied and thought about it a lot. So, let me ask you a couple of questions


 
As ardas beginning is from dasam granth it is but natural dasam Granth will come in the picture.

It depends upon the person who reads these compositions. if the reader's mind is sexually oriented he will go for that. But suffice to say that Dasam granth is for Gurmukh jogis and not manmukh bhogis.



> 1. Did Guru Gobind Singh give the name Dasam Granth?
> 2. If yes, then why would he have a separate Granth just on his name and add his father, Guru Teg Bahadar's Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru?
> 3. If Dasam Granth is by our 10th Guru, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then why didn't our other Gurus have their own Granths with their Gurbani rather than complying it together in SGGS, our only Guru?


 
1 It is immaterial whether tenth master gave it the name or not. name does not have any effect on the contents.

2) It is the prerogative of Guru ji. I am a mortal person and has no authority to question his decision.

3) Dasam Granth is for khalsa panth dealing with sikhism as an organized religion. 



> I am sure you must have thought a lot about the above questions as you have been propagating about the Dasam Granth for a long time. So please respond in details and educate us with your wisdom.


 
An accepted Granth needs no propagation. Khlasa panth is propagating it. Only a few heretics are waging a propaganda compaign deliberately to belittle a scripture that forms the core of khalsa panth.



> First of all, you being untruthful here. I never mentioned what you have accused me of here, which is again a shame coming from someone who calls himself a Sikh to be untruthful so blatantly,


 *"*


You wrote in your post the following
*Quote*
  we will notice that it is against the Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Unquote

Can you specify what is anti Gurmat in subject pauri of ardas? Give answers instead of lengthening the discussion.



> Your above statement shows how you love to underestimate others. You have already presumed that I have not read Dasam Granth which is a shame on your part. Please do not hesitate to ask questions rather than jumping to your own conclusions about others. This is one of many Gurmat ideals that all of us as Sikhs should follow.


 
 It is good to know that you have read it. You might  be knowing the dates of completion of various compositions given in that. Then why the doubt? 



> Your first part of the statement is absolutely correct and I agree with you. We also know that who wrote SGGS and the way it is written,, nothing can be added or taken out from it, but unfortunately, the second part is concocted. No one knows who wrote the so called Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how good a used car salesman you try to be.Once you have given the proof that Dasam Granth is written and put together by our 10th Guru, then we can discuss it further and the proof should come from the author, no one else. I am sure you know that.


 
That shows your attitude of insult towrads bani of tenth master. You  are being uncivilized when you call it so called dasam granth. I hope you show some sensitivity towards a scripture whose banis sikhs( except a few heretics) follow.

Let me take a practical step. You live quite close to me. My friend has three digitised copies of Dasam Granth manuscripts with him in northern california. Come and see those. Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh.




> Inder ji, It is your who claim that the Ardaas is written by our 10th Guru. And as it is your claim, then it is your duty to share with us what it says and if it compliments Gurmat values prescribed in the SGGS, our only Guru, hence our benchmark. I am looking forward to reading your interpretation, NOT literal translation copied and pasted from the internet. As mentioned before whatever you claim you must have studied a lot about it. Once again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt


 
I have cited plenty of evidence that says .Dasam granth was part of sikh psyche and was placed alongside SGGS in Gurmattas. Is it not enough? Since you cast aspersions on this it is your job to show us the evidence from sikh history with refrence. I am not asking for the moon. I am asking what you are supposed to furnish whenou make an accustaion contrary to sikh history and traditions. 



> I do not know if these people mentioned in the above news are the members of this forum. So your response has nothing to do with the people interacting with you here in this thread. Please stick to the conversation with the people here, otherwise the post becomes nothing but ranting through which no one can learn about Gurmat values and its ideals. So let us only address the people here.


 
I gave the facts about Inder ghagha who instigated to change ardas. You asked for proof. I gave you proof. Did it not satisfy you. If not i can post the video evidence here that shows him in discussion with some singhs in toronto where he was caught for passing stupid remarks against Guru Nanak dev ji and Guru arjan dev ji. Do you want that?



> Is this the Sikhi way to demean others and call them ignorant because they are drivers? I am surprised at your attitude towards others. Is being a driver not a kirat prescribed by Guru Nanak? Can you please give us the list of kirats that you claim Guru Nanak gave us or is it your personal bias and discrimination which again is not a Sikhi way?


 
Tejwant ji, your heart seems to be  very soft for those who resort to blasphemy and ridicule our Gurus. unfortunately that is not the case with me. I believe in couplet

Gur ki ninda sune na kaan



> It seems from your posts and your accusations that you consider yourself superior to others where as Gurbani says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi". Do you believe and adhere to SGGS? If you did then you would not be biased.


 
It is your personal assumption. let us not focus on personalities

PS: Please post a refrence here from sikh history wherein it is stated that Ardas was anti gurmat? If you are not able to do that, please be bold enough for tendering an apology to sangat for misleading them.


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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)

> Inder ji, personal insults not a Sikh make, and you have a habit of doing that which is sad. If you read my initial post in which I asked for a civilised discussion. That is what our Gurus did when they interacted with others. So let us try to emulate our Gurus in this respect otherwise, it cheapens us to stoop to that low level which is not the Sikhi way. I am sure you know about it. So when you disagree with me, which is ok, then please present your arguments based on Gurmat values rather than these cheap shots which transmit ego,anger and insecurity rather than Gurmat wisdom.


 
Tejwant ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

My remarks are no harsher than the ones that you wrote in your first post for me. Please see your language before accusing others. 




> Well, the thread is about Ardaas, we can talk about Dasam Granth in another thread while quoting lots of verses which are sexually explicit and hence anti Gurmat. But as you have inserted your favourite subject here, then one can presume you must have studied and thought about it a lot. So, let me ask you a couple of questions


 
As ardas beginning is from dasam granth it is but natural dasam Granth will come in the picture.

It depends upon the person who reads these compositions. if the reader's mind is sexually oriented he will go for that. But suffice to say that Dasam granth is for Gurmukh jogis and not manmukh bhogis.



> 1. Did Guru Gobind Singh give the name Dasam Granth?
> 2. If yes, then why would he have a separate Granth just on his name and add his father, Guru Teg Bahadar's Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru?
> 3. If Dasam Granth is by our 10th Guru, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then why didn't our other Gurus have their own Granths with their Gurbani rather than complying it together in SGGS, our only Guru?


 
1 It is immaterial whether tenth master gave it the name or not. name does not have any effect on the contents.

2) It is the prerogative of Guru ji. I am a mortal person and has no authority to question his decision.

3) Dasam Granth is for khalsa panth dealing with sikhism as an organized religion. 



> I am sure you must have thought a lot about the above questions as you have been propagating about the Dasam Granth for a long time. So please respond in details and educate us with your wisdom.


 
An accepted Granth needs no propagation. Khlasa panth is propagating it. Only a few heretics are waging a propaganda compaign deliberately to belittle a scripture that forms the core of khalsa panth.



> First of all, you being untruthful here. I never mentioned what you have accused me of here, which is again a shame coming from someone who calls himself a Sikh to be untruthful so blatantly,


 *"*


You wrote in your post the following
*Quote*
we will notice that it is against the Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Unquote

Can you specify what is anti Gurmat in subject pauri of ardas? Give answers instead of lengthening the discussion.



> Your above statement shows how you love to underestimate others. You have already presumed that I have not read Dasam Granth which is a shame on your part. Please do not hesitate to ask questions rather than jumping to your own conclusions about others. This is one of many Gurmat ideals that all of us as Sikhs should follow.


 
It is good to know that you have read it. You might be knowing the dates of completion of various compositions given in that. Then why the doubt? 



> Your first part of the statement is absolutely correct and I agree with you. We also know that who wrote SGGS and the way it is written,, nothing can be added or taken out from it, but unfortunately, the second part is concocted. No one knows who wrote the so called Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how good a used car salesman you try to be.Once you have given the proof that Dasam Granth is written and put together by our 10th Guru, then we can discuss it further and the proof should come from the author, no one else. I am sure you know that.


 
That shows your attitude of insult towrads bani of tenth master. You are being uncivilized when you call it so called dasam granth. I hope you show some sensitivity towards a scripture whose banis sikhs( except a few heretics) follow.

Let me take a practical step. You live quite close to me. My friend has three digitised copies of Dasam Granth manuscripts with him in northern california. Come and see those. Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh.




> Inder ji, It is your who claim that the Ardaas is written by our 10th Guru. And as it is your claim, then it is your duty to share with us what it says and if it compliments Gurmat values prescribed in the SGGS, our only Guru, hence our benchmark. I am looking forward to reading your interpretation, NOT literal translation copied and pasted from the internet. As mentioned before whatever you claim you must have studied a lot about it. Once again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt


 
I have cited plenty of evidence that says .Dasam granth was part of sikh psyche and was placed alongside SGGS in Gurmattas. Is it not enough? Since you cast aspersions on this it is your job to show us the evidence from sikh history with refrence. I am not asking for the moon. I am asking what you are supposed to furnish whenou make an accustaion contrary to sikh history and traditions. 



> I do not know if these people mentioned in the above news are the members of this forum. So your response has nothing to do with the people interacting with you here in this thread. Please stick to the conversation with the people here, otherwise the post becomes nothing but ranting through which no one can learn about Gurmat values and its ideals. So let us only address the people here.


 
I gave the facts about Inder ghagha who instigated to change ardas. You asked for proof. I gave you proof. Did it not satisfy you. If not i can post the video evidence here that shows him in discussion with some singhs in toronto where he was caught for passing stupid remarks against Guru Nanak dev ji and Guru arjan dev ji. Do you want that?



> Is this the Sikhi way to demean others and call them ignorant because they are drivers? I am surprised at your attitude towards others. Is being a driver not a kirat prescribed by Guru Nanak? Can you please give us the list of kirats that you claim Guru Nanak gave us or is it your personal bias and discrimination which again is not a Sikhi way?


 
Tejwant ji, your heart seems to be very soft for those who resort to blasphemy and ridicule our Gurus. unfortunately that is not the case with me. I believe in couplet

Gur ki ninda sune na kaan



> It seems from your posts and your accusations that you consider yourself superior to others where as Gurbani says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi". Do you believe and adhere to SGGS? If you did then you would not be biased.


 
It is your personal assumption. let us not focus on personalities

PS: Please post a refrence here from sikh history wherein it is stated that Ardas was anti gurmat? If you are not able to do that, please be bold enough for tendering an apology to sangat for misleading them.


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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)

Some people fabricate their own stories with a tendency to project Dasam Granth as a disputed Granth.
When asked to provide refrence from sikh history in support of their assertion they keep mum. The fact is they have nothing to cite against Dasam Granth that have been embedded in sikh psyche so deeply.

Below is a an edict from Akal takhat sahib terming such persons as mischievious elements. Akal takhat ask sikhs to reply these mischief mongers appropriately.

Akal Takhat Sahib Matta 2006


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## Inder singh (May 27, 2009)




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## jasi (May 27, 2009)

Wahe Guru Ji ka khalsa Wahe Guru Ji ki Fateh.


The problem is that we have collectivly ignored the fundamental teaching of Shri Guru Nanak Dev JI. Find out your self how close we are to hindus rituals which were totaly vanished by Guru Naak Dev Ji when he make us understand that we all come from one light  and critisizes the cast system.

Just look arournd.Even Sikhi is divided into many branches led by different groups when still they are reading from the Gur Granth Sahib JI.

One Sikh temple which is Golden Tample, that is it. There was no need by thousands to follow some one as a GURU than Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Jaspi

Jaspi


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 27, 2009)

GillAUS said:


> My opinion is that Guru Gobind Singh did not include his Bani into Sri Guru Granth Sahib because the tone and purpose of the majority of His writings are different to the overall tone of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
> 
> Sri Dasam Granth deals with many issues, not only spiritual. To include such writings into Sri Guru Granth Sahib would have changed the aesthetics of it.
> 
> ...



Guru Piayario Jio,
Gurfateh.

In that one sentence underlined bold YOU have DESTROYED the entire history of the FIRST POTHI SAHIB..AAD GRANTH JI..

Our History tells us that the AAD GRANTH was SCRIBED by Bhai Gurdass Ji, under the DIRECT SUPERVISION of GURU ARJUN JI SAHIB. This AAD Granth/Pothi Sahib was PARKASH in Harmandir Sahib Amrtisar by GURU ARJUN JI Sahib and the First HUKMNAMA was taken by the First Granthi,..Baba Budha Ji.
The AAD GRANTH...CONTAINS the GURBANI of GURU ARJUN JI SAHIB....He HIMSELF wrote it..and INCLUDED IT...and Parakshed iT..and also SLEPT ON THE FLOOR beside the santokhia sroop at night.
The AAD GRANTH (Kartarpuri Bir) is the Granth that has ONLY the GURBANI of Guru Teg Bahadur Ji MISSING...and that GURBANI was later INCORPORATED by Guru Gobind Singh Ji into a New Bir called the Damdmai Bir of SGGS. Guru Teg bahdur Jis Gurbani was INSERTED at all the different places in the appropruate Raags all over the SGGS.

2. *THE MOST SHABADS in SGGS are written by GURU ARJUN JI Sahib* !! Second number is by Guru Nanak ji and LEAST number by Guru TEG BAHADUR JI.and this LEAST NUMBER of shabads were inserted by Guru Gobind Singh ji...and the reason is because Guru Ji was still writing Gurbani till his last days in DELHI.....so this task was left to GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. *AS Guru Arjun Ji had COMPLETED writing his Gurbani..HE placed it all in the AAD GRANTH HIMSELF and DID NOT LEAVE THIS TASK TO THE NEXT GURU !!!!*

THUS I FIND your assertion in the post above unsustainable by facts of sikh history and oral tradition. Guur Gobind Singh Ji had no intention of placing his own writings in the SGGS. He ahd plenty of time...but DIDNT.

3. Such "speculations" as you ahve brought forward about our GURUS ....writing Gurbani and leaving the task of compiling ti to other "successor Gurus" has also been made about the GURUS....GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. This entire fiction is created and sustained by the "pothis of Goindwaal" tall tale. The supporters of Goindwaal pothis claim that GURU NANAK JI sahib..never wrote his own Gurbani.. ( AND that Guur ANGAD JI had to ask around...enquire from faithful sikhs..one of which happens to be  the entirely fictional Hindali creation... Bhai BALA...to Collect and collate Gurbani sung by Guru nanak ji and "recorded" by these sikhs !!....or didnt pass on His Gurbani Pothis to Guru Angad Ji...and hence these Gurbani Pothis fell into the hands of Baba Mohan ji..who had to be "praised and cajoled by sweet talk" by Guru Arjun ji sahib to get his hands on the GURBANI of the PREVIOUS GURUS.

This "lobby" also mistranslates the MOHAN TERE ...SHABADS of GURU ARJUN JI written in SOLE GLORY of AKAL PURAKH into "sweet talking" of Baba mohan..a mere human albeit son of Guru Amardass Ji. Even a cursory reading of the Shabads can show that the "MOHAN" addressed to by Guru Ji CANNOT be any human....and it has to be the CREATOR....

This entire story about Bhai bala and all...is meant to strike at the very roots of AUTHENTICITY of GURBANI......and it was a REAL THREAT..hence the decisiion by GURU ARJUN JI to produce the AAD GRANTH and settle this problem once and for all time )
Recent research has shown that the Bhai bala "Janamsakhi" was probably written around the time of Guur Hargobind Ji or even LATER...by the HINDALIS...who were also into the act of WRITING FICTIONAL "gurbani" under the Labels..Mehla CHHEVAAN, SATVAAN etcas they cleimed to be the real Gurus of Sikhs after Guru Arjun Jis martyrdom. The Bhai bala janamsakhi was "created" to portray Bab hindal as greater than Guru nanak ji !!!

Lets be more careful about our HISTORY....

Chardeekalla Jios...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 27, 2009)

Bani Guru..Guru hai bani..
was written by GURU AMARDASS JI..at the time when PRETENDERS to the Gurgadee were gathering strength...and beginning to spread "fictional gurbani"....as ORGINAL...and spreading rumours that "sikhs" had been compiling and collating gurbani shabads sung by Guru nanak ji...
Guur Amardass ji faced considerable oppostion from the osn of Guru Angad Ji...and so on...
The FACT was that GURU NANAK JI passed on His own Gurbani Pothi to Guru Angad Ji....and Guru Angad Ji passed on His own and Guru nanak jis poth to Guru Amardass ji....and so on. The "GURBANI" was the REAL SIGN OF GURGADEE....and FINAL ACT of SHOWING.....GURU HAI BANI was performed by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in 1708 when he BOWED and passed on His THRONE to SGGS.  The CHAIN of UNBROKEN COMMAND..starts with GURU NANAK-GURU ANGAD JI..and ENDS with GURU GOBIND SINGH JI.....as always...  The SHABAD GURU of GURU NANAK JI....is the SAME one that GURU GOBIND JI bowed to....SGGS and NO OTHER. ONE...ONE...ONE ONLY EK OANGKAAR- SGGS as always.:ice::ice::ice:


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## Tejwant Singh (May 27, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have failed to answer to any of my questions in the post which is a shame. Interaction and Gurmat discussion can not happen by your repeating the same things again and again without any proof. Claiming something on your own like that is nothing but underestimating and disrespecting our 10th Guru.

When you are willing and able to respond to my queries and give the interpretation in your own words of the Ardaas that you claim without any proof that it was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji and also give the proof that Dasam Granth is written and named as such by our 10th Guru, then we can continue this discussion. Otherwise it becomes a futile tug of war of egos in which I declare myself a loser between us two.

Insults like *"Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh",* are nothing but bullying others in a Taliban mentality which Sikhi does not need and it shows sheer arrogance on your part. Only *Ik Ong Kaar* knows who is a Gursikh and which milestone he/she is at? You, I or no one else can ever find that out. So it is not only demeaning to Ik Ong Kaar by pretending to play Him but to the whole Sikh Panth.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Amarpal (May 27, 2009)

Dear Khalsa Ji,

I want to know who had compiled the text of Ardaas used in Gurdwaras controlled by SGPC.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## Inder singh (May 28, 2009)

> Insults like *"Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh",* are nothing but bullying others in a Taliban mentality which Sikhi does not need and it shows sheer arrogance on your part. Only *Ik Ong Kaar* knows who is a Gursikh and which milestone he/she is at? You, I or no one else can ever find that out. So it is not only demeaning to Ik Ong Kaar by pretending to play Him but to the whole Sikh Panth.



I am surprised that you term it as an insult. It is an invitation and chance for you to see in person the Granth of tenth master. You will also be able to see his hand written pages in it, date of compilation and his signature. Why do not accept it. Only propagandists whose job is secure on festering this uncalled for controversey will not accept such a chance.


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## Inder singh (May 28, 2009)

Amarpal said:


> Dear Khalsa Ji,
> 
> I want to know who had compiled the text of Ardaas used in Gurdwaras controlled by SGPC.
> 
> ...



Amarpal singh ji

The main ardas i.e. pauri in the beginning is from Chandi Di Vaar of Dasam granth. This ardas is prevalent from Guru Gobind singh's time. Later on Guru gobind singh's name was added to this in 1902. Also other additions were done later on.

The original ardas pauri is inscribed at the entrance gate of harmandir sahib at a time when gilding work was done during the rule of Maharaja Ranjit singh ji.


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## Inder singh (May 28, 2009)

*
*

*Amarpal singh ji*


The following is additional information for your reference

Glimpse of the oldest available beerh of Sri Dasam Granth from 1698 AD


*Glimpse of the oldest available beerh of Sri Dasam Granth from 1698 AD	*




 

 

 



Contents from the rare handwritten _beerh _of Sri Dasam Granth compiled in 1755 _Bikrami _(1698 A.D.), one year before the formation of Khalsa. The date when this historic _beerh _was compiled is given in the introductory paragraph. This beerh is preserved at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. It is noteworthy that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib’s bani "_Zafarnamah_"  which was written in 1704 A.D., six years after this _beerh _was compiled, does not feature in this _beerh_. Also noteworthy is the name of the granth that appears on the top, “_Patshah Dasven Ju Ka Granth_” (The Granth of the Tenth Master). 

 The year mentioned on this handwritten beerh is also significant because Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber too in Bansavalinama records that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had himself compiled the Granth in 1755 _Bikrami _(1698 A.D.), and this _Chhota_ Granth[1] was very dear to him. Hence it is evident that this is one of the oldest beerhs which Guru Sahib himself compiled before the formation of the Khalsa. Later compilations of the complete banees of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is attributed to Bhai Mani Singh.

_ਛੋਟਾ ਗਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਨਮੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ। 
*ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ*, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ। 
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹਥੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਖਿਡਾਇਆ। _​ _ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ, 'ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ (ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ'।
ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, 'ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਖੇਡ ਹੈ।' 
ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦ।_​ _ਸੋ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰ ਜਾਨੋ।_​ _ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤਰ ਪੋਤਰੇ ਕਿਰ ਪਛਾਨੋ_​ 
(*ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ*)   [1] Kesar Singh Chibber calls the granth as _Chotta Granth_ (small granth) in relation to the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib 

 
 
 
​ ​ 




 The first paragraph is transcribed below:​ ੴਸ੍ਰੀਵਾਹਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ​ ਸ੍ਰੀਭਗਉਤੀਜੂਸਹਾਇ​ ਤਤਕਰਾ ਸੁਚੇਪੱਤ੍ਰਸ੍ਰੀਗ੍ਰਿੰਥਜੂਕਾ​ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਦਸਵੇਂਜੂਕੇਗ੍ਰਿੰਥਕਾ​ ਸੰਬਤ 1755.ਮਿਤੀਅਸਾੜਬਦੀ1​ ਕੋਗ੍ਰਿੰਥਲਿਖਿਆ: ਤਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ​ ਸ੍ਰੀਮੁਖਵਾਕਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ10​


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## Tejwant Singh (May 28, 2009)

Inder ji,​ 
Guru Fateh,​ 
Thanks for proving my point as you being a bully. The main word in the below sentence in quote which was given my me is *IF.* So if you do not know what it means, then I am sorry I can not help you.​ 
I also remember from our emails interaction sometime ago that you not only believe in the caste system but you live by it quite fervently, I may add. You call yourself a proud Jatt since the time of Gurus and for you Bhapas are of low caste as you have said many times in your emails, which means and was reminded by me in the emails, according to you all our Gurus which were Bhapas are of a lower caste than you are. It shows what kind of attitude and principles you live by. I would like to remind you that Sikhi has no caste system. People who live by that are Hindus NOT Sikhs no matter what kind of Baana they wear on the outside.​ 
I said:​ 
Insults like *"Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh",* are nothing but bullying others in a Taliban mentality which Sikhi does not need and it shows sheer arrogance on your part. Only *Ik Ong Kaar* knows who is a Gursikh and which milestone he/she is at? You, I or no one else can ever find that out. So it is not only demeaning to Ik Ong Kaar by pretending to play Him but to the whole Sikh Panth.​You said:




> I am surprised that you term it as an insult. It is an invitation and chance for you to see in person the Granth of tenth master. You will also be able to see his hand written pages in it, date of compilation and his signature. Why do not accept it. *Only propagandists whose job is secure on festering this uncalled for controversey will not accept such a chance*.​


 

Here you go again bullying others and show that you are superior which I am sure our Gurus would not approve of. What you have offered to show me is still not a proof of what I have asked you. So rather than responding to the questions in an honest manner, you start bullying so you can impose your viewpoint, which in my opinion is not a Sikhi way, to the contrary.

As I said in my previous post, I accept defeat in this tug of war of egos. You are the winner. When you respond to my queries in my earlier posts, then we can have a lively interaction based on Gurmat principles and bullying in not one of them.​ 

Regards​ 
Tejwant Singh​


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## AdsKhalsa (May 28, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.....

They should have taken permission from Akal Takht...now everbody has started their own culture...where we sikhs are going ?


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## Inder singh (May 28, 2009)

I





> also remember from our emails interaction sometime ago that you not only believe in the caste system but you live by it quite fervently, I may add. You call yourself a proud Jatt since the time of Gurus and for you Bhapas are of low caste as you have said many times in your emails, which means and was reminded by me in the emails, according to you all our Gurus which were Bhapas are of a lower caste than you are. It shows what kind of attitude and principles you live by. I would like to remind you that Sikhi has no caste system. People who live by that are Hindus NOT Sikhs no matter what kind of Baana they wear on the outsid


e. 

Tejwant ji

I have taken khande bate da amrit where all seekers drink from the same bowl and by waheguru's grace i maintain that unlike you who disowns the banis with which we are baptized.

Like a child who has no constructive arguements you have embarked upon a vilification compaign.
I do not believe in caste system and neither i consider any caste superior to any other.You should be ashamed of yourself of lying here to get sympathy. It is you who was castigating me being a Jat sikh in your hate emails that kept on coming to me and i ahd to warn you for taking recourse to remedial steps. A sikh does not lie and neither indulges in personal brawls.


 So many references are given to you on demand. You have not provided a single reference so far in support of your contention. The only way is to come and see for yourself so that you get satisfied. there is nothing wrong in that.

You condemn the bani with which you have been baptized and also form part of a khalsa's nitnem. You claim to be a khalsa. It is natural that i will doubt your sikhi since you are violating the edict of Panj piaras who gave gurmantra to you.



I


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 28, 2009)

Singh sahab, what you write, it seems the personal attack on Inder Singh ji, whereas he has opened the eyes of all critics of Dasam Granth which was earlier known as chota Granth.Guru Gobind Singh ji liked it most but his consciousness didn't allow to supersede the Adi Guru Granth Sahab ji. AGGS was compiled by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in 1604 AD.The Baani of 9th Guru was added in AGGS. All the Baanis wchich were composed by Dasam Patshah were being added in Dasam Granth time  to time, as Jafarnama which was written and added in 1704.
In my knowledge as i have studied only one Salok of "Salok Mahalla 9," the 54th salok is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. In many old manuscripts it has been written as "Salok Patshahi 10," Other than this single Salok no other Baani of him was added in AGGS.
Your name indicates that you are a seeker of Waheguru ji but you waste your and other's time unnecessarily by raising silly questions and arguments. What do you want to prove by your arguements?What are your questions in short? Why you pull the matter in length-to impress that you are the only wiser Sikh. Be polite and listen others also.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 28, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Singh sahab, what you write, it seems the personal attack on Inder Singh ji, whereas he has opened the eyes of all critics of Dasam Granth which was earlier known as chota Granth.Guru Gobind Singh ji liked it most but his consciousness didn't allow to supersede the Adi Guru Granth Sahab ji. AGGS was compiled by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in 1604 AD.The Baani of 9th Guru was added in AGGS. All the Baanis wchich were composed by Dasam Patshah were being added in Dasam Granth time to time, as Jafarnama which was written and added in 1704.
> In my knowledge as i have studied only one Salok of "Salok Mahalla 9," the 54th salok is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. In many old manuscripts it has been written as "Salok Patshahi 10," Other than this single Salok no other Baani of him was added in AGGS.
> *Your name indicates that you are a seeker of Waheguru ji but you waste your and other's time unnecessarily by raising silly questions and arguments. What do you want to prove by your arguements?What are your questions in short? Why you pull the matter in length-to impress that you are the only wiser Sikh. Be polite and listen others also*.


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for prejudging others without any foundation.  Showing one's superiority is one more tug of war of egos which I cencede defeat without fighting.

Let us talk about the facts in a Gurmat fashion and stop with name calling.

1. We all know who compiled SGGS our only GURU. There is NO other GURU for the Sikhs except SGGS. I hope you agree with me on that.

2. There is NO evidence but only speculation that the author of Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh. 

Let me ask you a question for you to ponder upon.

Why would our 10th Guru who sacrificed his own father, his 4 sons for the sake of humanity and added his father Guru Teg Bhadhar's Gurbani in SGGS, did not add his writings in the SGGS would have a Granth in his name?

I would love to have a civilsed interaction about Sikhi with anyone. So if you like to start a new thread with another subject, please do because after all we are all Sikhs, seekers, learners  of the Truth and Truth can never be based on mere speculations by some but solid proofs and that solid proof lies in SGGS, our only GURU.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 28, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*



Adssaini said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.....
> 
> They should have taken permission from Akal Takht...now everbody has started their own culture...where we sikhs are going ?



1. Bhai GS Kala Afghana sent copies of his books to Akal Takhat and SGPC..and many authorities including Tohra sgpc president etc etc....and WAITED...and waited..and waited...NONE REPLIED. When he went ahead and published his books..silence was golden...UNTIL the Akal Takhat jathedar published his own book...the Gurbilas Patshi Chhevin which derogated Guru hargobind Ji quite shamelessly..Kala Afghana wrote a damning rebuttal of thsi booka nd the Akal Takhat jathedar was FORCED TO BAN and withdraw his own book !! Honoured Persons like Tohra and many others who had written GLOWING FORWARDS and Welcome Messages for thsi Book were EMBARRASSED and forced to issue "excuses"...one Jathedar said .."my signature was FORGED"...others admitted they didnt even read the said book...
Next thing..Kala Afghana was in the limelight...hue and cry began..he was called to explain heresy in his books..he repleid..Quote me Five shabads form SGGS and prove me WRONG...this was ignored..cries for hsi excommunication grew louder..his chracter was assasinated..etcv etc and finally he was excommunicated..and the Jathedar quietly reissued his Gurbilas book with a different cover and rearranged pages...

2. Many issues before the Akal takhat hanging..for ages...excuses given..Let the 300th anniversary pass..then we will discuss....Let the 400th anniversary be concluded..we will meet...and the BEST excuse was..Let the WEDDING of Keshgarh Jathedar be over..then we will discuss...of course..NOTHING was ever discussed...EXCEPT when BADAL wnats it discussed..like the case of Patna Jathedar..etc..or Dera sacha sauda...or soemthign like that...then its super quick meeting and result...jhatt manggnni patt viah....

The AKAL TAKHAT IS SUPREME...but dont mix this up with the "JATHEDAR IS SUPREME"
He is NOT..he is just  a PAID SERVANT who can be unceremoniously removed at  a moments notice..Bhai Ranjit singh...Charan Singh.Lav Kush......Vedanti..etc etc.. !! They only remain in office at the pleasure of BADAL...and so issue hukmnamas as ordered.
The Akal takhat is supreme when headed by the likes of Akali PHOOLA SINGH who ordered Maharja Ranjit Singh tied to a  tree and WHIPPED IN PUBLIC for a morality offense. I sincerely hope that day is not far....when the Akal takhat the SGPC etc will be TOTALLY PANTHIC.....


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## AdsKhalsa (May 28, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

Thanks Gyani Ji..for such a great information. I heard Prof. Darshan Singh Ji also have some issues which SGPC is lagging ...you are right that SGPC is giving all excuses...but I heard that Ardass .up to Guru Teg Bahadar Simriye..Ghar Nao Nidh Aavey Thaneye." was said by Guru Gobind Singh Ji...even Dohra..we recite aftar Ardaas.. So I dont think we should change such things...yes...I may be wrong...Its like Barah Maah Tukhari and Barah Maah said by Guru Guru Arjan Dev Ji...he said I can not change what Guru Nanak said..He taught us lesson...so we have to follow that...we should do something to change the system which is taking undue advantage so sikhism..sitting at Akal Takht.... but I really don't know how...

These are my views and I may be wrong...please put some light on it...it will help me to get clarified.....

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..........

Rabb bhali kare...............

Tere Bhaaney Sarbat Da Bhala.............


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 28, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*

ADSSAINI JI,
GURFATEH JI.

My views ji.
Point about Gurbani. The AAD GURU..our Founder is GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. Sabh te wadda Satgur..Nanak Jin kal rakhee meree..No one appointed Guru nanak ji except the CREATOR..the Akal Purakh Himself.
The successor GURUS...wrote Further Gurbani as they had the SAME JYOT of Guru nanak ji Sahib..and they further ELABORATED what Guru nanak ji Sahib had already taught us. That is why all of them.... SIGNED OFF with NANAK. The Mehla was inserted by Guru Arjun Ji sahib when compiling the Gurbani into the AAd Granth just to facilitate the identity of the various Gurus. Guru Gobind Singh ji followed suit with Mahalla  Nauvaan. THIS btw is the Strongest argument against the banis left outside and included in dsm garnth..why would the TENTH NANAK desert this TRADITION of all the PRECEEDING GURUS and desert the SIGNATURE NANAK to TITLE banis Patshai Dass BUT NOT SIGN them as the other GURUS DID...with NANAK ( or even Patshahi Das )....all poets never leave out their NAME from their writings..its just NOT done..and many wriitings do contain names like sham ram pointing towards the authors).
Anyway i digress... the Bani is ALL ONE...and there is NO QUESTION of any Guru trying to correct or declining to correct etc. Such blasphemous views are brought forward by anti-sikhs who dont have full faith in Guru sahibs. Many anti-sikh scholars have claimed that Guru Arjun ji changed/altered Guru nanak Jis Bani....etc etc. This is Totally wrong.
2. Whereever..the Bhagats have not fully explained a concept..the GURU JI has done a "technical correction" which is actually an elaboration that CLARIFIES the Bhagat bani. in one place when the bhagat says his blood is "unnecessray"..Guru Ji explains that BLOOD is VITAL to LIFE..a body cannot survive without BLOOD..what NEEDS to be REMOVED form BLOOD...is LOBH..Hankaar ..VICES...
Such examples can be seen in the Bhagat kabir Ji swaiyas..alterations by Guru Amardass Ji, Bhagt Farid Jis loks etc. Bhagat ji used a metaphor..Guru Ji expalined it fully in case it is misunderstood...as is reality - Mnay actually beleive that Farid Ji had made a  WOODEN ROTI which he hung aroudn his waist..and bit it to satisfy his hunger...just from a superficial understanding of Roti meree KAATH KE..laavan meri Bukh..whch is a METAPHOR and not that Fraid ji NEVER ATE !! OR the imaginary paintings of Farid ji lying on the gorund with a crow tanding over him ready to peck out his eyes...just becasue Farid Ji wrote a verse about his eyes havent seen his beloved yet !! THOSE EYES are METAPHORICAL..and NOT the ones that the crow can Dig out !! These physical eyes cannot see "GOD".

Thnaks you for your message..we are all here to LEARN..and we do that..from EACH OTHER...each one has a place of HONOUR in SPN. Keep in Chardeekalla and keep on wriiting...:happy::happy:


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## Tejwant Singh (May 29, 2009)

Sadh Sangat,
Guru fateh.
What I am going to say is just a speculation on my part but it has been on my mind for a long time and I have decided to share it with you all. After Guru Arjan Dev ji added his Gurbani in SGGS, one wonders why Guru Teg Bahadur did not add his. Why did Guru Gobind ji added his father Gurbani instead? We all know that our 9th Guru had all the time to do that before he sacrificed himself for the sake of humanity, not just for Sikhi.

We also know the selfless nature of Guru Gobind Singh ever since he was just a young lad. The proof of this wonderful nature is self evident when he asked his father to sacrifice his life for the sake of others while he was just a young boy. This was a very unique thing void of Me-ism at that very tender age. It is difficult to find a person of that age with so much vision and courage.

We also know that Guru Gobind Singh was also a polyglot, a martial art expert and a great poet. The proof of the latter can be seen at Gurdwara Paonta Sahib.

He sacrificed his father, his 4 sons and gave us the true GPS of life based on the gurmat values written in SGGS by establishing Khalsa Panth. Khalsa panth is the amalgam of the concept of democracy sans hierarchy created by Guru Nanak where the community leaders consisting of Panj Pyaras take decision for the betterment of its people, a unique concept then, which has become the back bone of today's world with a new name called the boardroom where all the decisions are taken collectively in all fields imaginable.

Gyani ji is so right by pointing out this important aspect in his above post*,"THIS btw is the Strongest argument against the banis left outside and included in dsm garnth..why would the TENTH **Nanak** desert this TRADITION of all the PRECEEDING GURUS and desert the SIGNATURE **Nanak** to TITLE banis Patshai Dass BUT NOT SIGN them as the other GURUS DID...with **Nanak** ( or even Patshahi Das )....all poets never leave out their NAME from their writings..its just NOT done..and many wriitings do contain names like sham ram pointing towards the authors)".*

So, my own feeling is that the Gurbani added by our 10th Guru under the name of his father, the 9th Guru could have been actually his own but he wanted to pay homage to his own father, one more selfless act, who gave his life not only for the Sikh Panth but also so that the Kashmiri Pandits whose off spring is also Indira Gandhi could practice their own beliefs. As mentioned earlier that Guru Teg Bahadur had all the time in the world to add his writings in SGGS by himself but the fact is that he did not.

Just a thought which had been fermenting in my head for a long time and I thought this thread was the best to share it. Once again, these are just thoughts of mine and which are obviously speculative.

Tejwant Singh


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## Amarpal (May 29, 2009)

Inder Singh Ji,

Thank you for the information you have provided

With love and regards

Amarpal Singh


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## NALWA (May 29, 2009)

par(Parminder Singh)

"This is a very good start to change from the entenched 17th century ritualistic Sikhi to the 21st century."
Change in a general sense is the law of nature but change merely for the sake of change is a meaningless jesture.The words of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are not mere words.These words were uttered at a certain point of time in the histoty of Khalsa.They are there for eternity.Finally, Who amongst us has the grace of the Akal Purakh like the tenth Guru Sahib had that we take upon our selves to change his words.


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

The subject under discussion is change of ardas and we should focus on that. Gurudwara in finland has not only changed ardas but also has taken out the name of chali muktas out of ardas. This falls in line with heretic kala afghana lobby that says there were no muktas. That means that we have to rewrite our histroy. 

People are writing whatever they like about Dasam granth. May i ask what research they have done to arrive at their conclusions. There are various parameters for assessing a scripture such as availability of manuscripts, contemporary literature of the time, internal evidence, message of its contents, traditions. have any of them including kala afghana looked into that?

 Dasam Granth is accepted scripture of sikhs. Traditions do not crop up all of sudden. 
People need to know that Guru sahib has used pen names Ram,shyam in some banis. He has also used Gobind as his name. This does not effect the theme of the scritpure.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 29, 2009)

Veer Tejwant singh ji, I am glad that you too agree Guru Granth Sahab ji is our present Guru.
2- These are not the speculations any more as only yesterday S. Inder singh ji pasted the photocopies of the manuscript of Dasam Granth which clears all doubts. The controversy is not if Dasam Granth is written by Guru ji or not but the wicked game behind this is to place it equal to Guru Granth Sahab ji which is not possible because if it had to be worship as Guru, than there was no need to declare next Guru to Guru Granth Sahab ji.
By giving same status and placing equally in Gurudwara's, whether we not doing jeopardize in faith with our Guru and betraying by considering two Gurus at one time?
Reciting Baani from either Granth is not banned. We are bound to recite the Baani of Dasam Granth in our Nit-Nem.
3- In a short life of 42 years only, Guruji had to fight with Moguls and Pahari Hindu rulers since the age of 19 years only. He was adorned with famous poets of his time at Paonta Sahib and Anandpur Sahib.He had to re-write Guru Granth Sahab ji beside compiling his own baanis when he was denied to handover the original script.
Dohra,"Sambat satrah sahas pachavan Haar vadi pratham sukh daavan !!" These lines referred to Chaupai (860),Which is a proof that Dasam Granth was compiled in Bikrami Samvat 1755(1698 AD).This is again certified by the photocopy of first page sent by S. Inder Singh ji, If you still deny, it will be your ignorance of facts.
See again:--


Contents from the rare handwritten _beerh _of Sri Dasam Granth compiled in 1755 _Bikrami _(1698 A.D.), one year before the formation of Khalsa. The date when this historic _beerh _was compiled is given in the introductory paragraph. This beerh is preserved at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. It is noteworthy that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib’s bani "_Zafarnamah_"  which was written in 1704 A.D., six years after this _beerh _was compiled, does not feature in this _beerh_. Also noteworthy is the name of the granth that appears on the top, “_Patshah Dasven Ju Ka Granth_” (The Granth of the Tenth Master). 

 The year mentioned on this handwritten beerh is also significant because Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber too in Bansavalinama records that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had himself compiled the Granth in 1755 _Bikrami _(1698 A.D.), and this _Chhota_ Granth[1] was very dear to him. Evidently that this is one of the oldest beerhs which Guru Sahib himself compiled before the formation of the Khalsa. Later compilations of the complete banees of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is attributed to Bhai Mani Singh.

_ਛੋਟਾ ਗਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਨਮੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ। 
*ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ*, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ। 
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹਥੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਖਿਡਾਇਆ। _​ _ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ, 'ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ (ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ'।
ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, 'ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਖੇਡ ਹੈ।' 
ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦ।_​ _ਸੋ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰ ਜਾਨੋ।_​ _ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤਰ ਪੋਤਰੇ ਕਿਰ ਪਛਾਨੋ_​ 
(*ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ*)   [1] Kesar Singh Chibber calls the granth as _Chotta Granth_ (small granth) in relation to the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib


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## spnadmin (May 29, 2009)

*Moved to Leaders until we see eye to eye with Inder Singh ji*



Aman Singh said:


> *Inder Singh ji, although i can read Gurumukhi/Punjabi but many other members who may be debating the issue... cannot read in Gurumukhi/Punjabi...
> 
> May i request you to kindly produce this article in a more widely used medium ie. English for the benefit of sangat at SPN...
> 
> ...



Admin Aman Singh ji has just requested that there be NO posting of Gurumukhi/Punjabi without an English translation This is a forum rule, and right after Aman ji made this request the rule was violated again. So this time I am directing all to observe what Aman ji has stated or the commentary will be removed. Thank you, aad0002


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

> Admin Aman Singh ji has just requested that there be NO posting of Gurumukhi/Punjabi without an English translation This is a forum rule, and right after Aman ji made this request the rule was violated again. So this time I am directing all to observe what Aman ji has stated or the commentary will be removed. Thank you, aad0002



Aman singh ji has asked me to render a translation of the article. I will do that as time permits. nowhere he has written that there should be any writing in Punjabi. Most of our literature is in Punjab and i see no reason to raise objection even for a small couplet as posted by Ajmer singh ji.

If there is a written rule please post it here.


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

> Admin Aman Singh ji has just requested that there be NO posting of Gurumukhi/Punjabi without an English translation This is a forum rule, and right after Aman ji made this request the rule was violated again. So this time I am directing all to observe what Aman ji has stated or the commentary will be removed. Thank you, aad0002


Aman singh ji has asked me to render a translation of the article. I will do that as time permits. nowhere he has written that there should not be any writing in Punjabi. Most of our literature is in Punjabi and i see no reason to raise objection even for a small couplet as posted by Ajmer singh ji which is basically a refrence of earlier post.

If there is a written rule please post it here.


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## spnadmin (May 29, 2009)

Inder ji

English is the official language of the forum. It is easier to abide by my request than to lock horms with me about it. Thank you.


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

Aad0002 ji

I did not contest that English is not the official language of the forum. My question was regading the policy banning certain couplets in Punjabi if they are part of the article. Is there a forum policy on that.

Please read my post with a cool mind and reply.


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## spnadmin (May 29, 2009)

Yes there is a forum rule and other people have abided by it. I will post the rule "when time permits."


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

> Yes there is a forum rule and other people have abided by it. I will post the rule "when time permits."



Your statement is not correct. There is no such rule in terms.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 29, 2009)

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I want to thank you  for restarting our interaction in a civilsed manner. Gurmat ideals laid by our Gurus demand that from us.

You write:



> Veer Tejwant singh ji, I am glad that you too agree Guru Granth Sahab ji is our present Guru.


 
I think you have missed all my posts before. I always  emphasised that fact first and foremost.




> 2- These are not the speculations any more as only yesterday S. Inder singh ji pasted the photocopies of the manuscript of Dasam Granth which clears all doubts. The controversy is not if Dasam Granth is written by Guru ji or not


 
I beg to disagree with you on your above speculative statement. In order for me not to be repetitive, please read all my posts in this thread. Once again, NO ONE knows who wrote this  book we call  Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how much we mortals and so called scholars try to twist it. In my opinion when we give this name to the Granth then we are not only insulting SGGS, the  Gurmat concept of Sikhi but also ALL our Gurus including our 10th Guru. This claim by some makes Guru Gobind Singh seem arrogant when we know he was totally to the contrary. So let us stop insulting our Gurus  just because we are stubborn and arrogant enough to second guess them.



> but the wicked game behind this is to place it equal to Guru Granth Sahab ji which is not possible because if it had to be worship as Guru, than there was no need to declare next Guru to Guru Granth Sahab ji.
> By giving same status and placing equally in Gurudwara's, whether we not doing jeopardize in faith with our Guru and betraying by considering two Gurus at one time?


 
Your above statement is very interesting and full of holes and contradictory at times. Let me take your part of the argument and agree with you for the sake of this lively interaction which is the learning process for all Sikhs. According to you, Inder Singh and others, Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji despite the fact there is no evidence of that which can only come from our 10th Guru. 

1.So if it is written by our 10th Guru then why would his Gurbani have a lower status? 
2. How is Guru Gobind Singh not equal to other Gurus?
3. Why are you and your ilk degrading our 10th Guru's Gurbani as if it were inferior than the one in SGGS?
4. Why can't we give the equal status if  Guru Gobind Singh ji is equal to all our other 9 Gurus?
5. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

Secondly, we do not worship SGGS. People worship idols. SGGS is no idol nor does Sikhi believe or practice idol worshipping. 

Allow me to indulge you a bit deeper in this matter.

We chant Gurbani from SGGS loudly because it is written in the poetic and musical form. This was a great idea by our visionary Gurus. By chanting and singing Gurbani loudly, one liberates oneself from the self created cocoons, one breaks the walls one has constructed around him/her. One bursts out of the self made bubble. Once this is done then our visionary Gurus tell us to study Gurbani so that we can understand it, put it into practice so that it can become our second nature which in result will help us elevate our level of normalcy. By understanding and then putting Gurbani into practice,what seemed impossible yesterday, becomes probable today and then with HIS grace- Nadar-, it ought to become a piece of cake the next day. So a Sikh is not a worshipper but a seeker. The name says that.



> Reciting Baani from either Granth is not banned. We are bound to recite the Baani of Dasam Granth in our Nit-Nem.


 
Banned by whom? ( please read Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's post #126 on this context).

By reciting you mean parroting? We are bound by nothing but Gurbani which is in SGGS and it says ," Gaviei sunhiei,munn Rakhiei Bhao". Here reciting is just one of the 4 step process. So please elaborate when you say  "bound to just recite". Reciting does nothing but make us good parrots and we hope that by parroting Gurbani we may get a brighter plummage one day. Nothing more.




> 3- In a short life of 42 years only, Guruji had to fight with Moguls and Pahari Hindu rulers since the age of 19 years only. He was adorned with famous poets of his time at Paonta Sahib and Anandpur Sahib.


 
You have echoed exactly my sentiments that I have mentioned repeatedly in my posts. 



> He had to re-write Guru Granth Sahab ji beside compiling his own baanis when he was denied to handover the original script.
> Dohra,"Sambat satrah sahas pachavan Haar vadi pratham sukh daavan !!" These lines referred to Chaupai (860),Which is a proof that Dasam Granth was compiled in Bikrami Samvat 1755(1698 AD).


 
Your first statement is full of holes and contradictory, once again.  I do not know if he HAD to do re-write SGGS which shows someone forced him to do something which  is wrong  and impossible because no one can force our Gurus to do anything. Yes, He knew  and understood the meanings of the whole SGGS by heart and that is the fact. So, he was not forced to do anything. Ik Ong Kaar had etched the whole SGGS on his heart and soul. 

Secondly, why would he have to separate his writings from SGGS?  What is the reason behind it unless we claim our 10th Guru to be self centered egotisitic person which he was NOT? 

Inder Singh ji has not been able to respond to that. I hope you can with total honesty. Ok, the Chaupai(860) does mention the date but that is irrelvant. I have no idea whether you have read the Dasam Granth or not. I do give the benefit of the doubt to others unlike some  in here. Let me assume that you have studied Dasam Granth and understand it well. Do you know there are lots of verses  that are sexually explicit which have nothing to do with the concept of Sikhi laid by our Gurus in SGGS?



> This is again certified by the photocopy of first page sent by S. Inder Singh ji, *If you still deny, it will be your ignorance of facts.*


 
Certified by whom? for what? As mentioned before the only certification we need is what is in SGGS. You started your post agreeing with that and now you are drifting away. One wonders why this shift!

Here you have done it again and it is funny to say the least. Let me repeat something which I have mentioned before. Demeaning  and insulting someone because he/she disagrees with you is not the Sikhi way. It shows more about the person who is doing that then the one the remark is made to.



> See again:--
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
All this sounds nice but it is full of holes. It is all hearsay. Nothing is original. I have heard the same story again and again and when people like me disagree with it, the other side becomes abusive and offensive which shows they want to impose their thinking unto others, one more anti Gurmat trait. Sorry to disappoint you. 

Let us study Gurbani  from SGGS. Please share any Shabad from SGGS that you idenify with and explain its meaning in your own words so all of us can benefit from it.

I hope to learn a lot from your Gurmat wisdom.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (May 29, 2009)

S. Tejwant Singh ji , Gur fateh !!
You have raised many questions,!-I just mentioned worship which doesn't mean to Aarti. In our faith in simple words i did mention it but meant the same as you have described. Guru ji has sais, "Dithe mukat na hovai jichar shabad na kare vichar," So to recite Gurbaani and than go through the meanings to know what Guru ji is saying-does matter. For those people who recite like parrots, Guruji has cautioned that"Paath parey na bujayi pekhi bharam bhulaye." The last quotient is,"Satguru poora bhetiye bhai Sabad milaawanhaar."
2- I think the answer in detail to the name of Dasam Granth is just given in this post again by S. Inder singh ji. He has left no loop hole of suspence with his research. I appreciate his efforts. I can't give any details more than him but i do agree with him. I don't raise kintu-parantu because by the grace of Waheguru ji, i can link the missing thread myself.
3-Guru Gobind Singh ji's Baani can never be of low grade. For your kind information He created Khalsa from submissive class or the dead nation.So he chanted these Baanis to remind them of the past of their ancestors, to inspire them from their forgotten past and to inspire a new spirit of bravery by saying,"Ab jujhan ko daao." The blood in their veins was flown again with Bir ras composed Baanis.
Any conclusion to search Guru's vision of future, you will have to go back 300 years back and try to understand the difficulties faced by a common person of Mogul raj. Without doing that you even can't describe the reason to wear 5k, i am sure.
4-We can't give the equql status because the baanis in Dasam Granth was composed by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself but the Baani of his father he had added in Guru Granth Sahab ji and than adding his own Baani again could put him equal to his father who gave the supreme sacrifice. It was his politeness that he better decided to keep distance though being a Guru. He was the only Guru who presented the idea of AAPE GUR_CHELA. No other such example in history is available.
5- You are well aware of the fact that Guru ji was denied to handover the original script of Guru Granth Sahab ji which is still at Kartarpur and it is not given the status of Guru though it is sighned by Guru Arjan Dev ji himself. He was denied with a remark that if he was Guru , he could write it himself. So Guru ji got it re-written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and Baba Deep Singh ji. This is real beer which has the honor of being sworn in as Guru. Any doubt ?
If you deny the certification of Bhai Mani Singh ji, than either you are a fool or trying to brain wash the ignorant people by your lengthy discussions.* Please avoid negativity. aad0002* In Hindi, people says, "Pancho ki baat sir maathe par Parnala wahin bahega." *Do we need to have this translated? **Or better to leave it as is?????*
Kala Afgana, Gyani Jarnail Singh and you are *deleted (Please debate issues not personalities*) .
Waheguru may bless you real Sumat and Sikhi to enlighten the people* deleted (Please debate issues not personalities).

It is important to observe the forum rules to stick to the issues and to avoid spreading negativity.  Inline deletions are not the best approach to calm the waters. Please rather abide by our rules. Thank you: aad002
*


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## spnadmin (May 29, 2009)

Post regarding use of Punjabi only and related admin comments have been moved to Leaders for discussion. Thank you, aad0002


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## siana sikh (May 29, 2009)

Hey am surprised and shocked that ardass is changed. To best of my knowledge tenth guru created ardass upto tribute to ninth guru "tegh bahudaur simriye ghar nu nidh ave dhaye" rest was created by wise devoted sikhs to seek forgiveness for mistakes during reciital of gurbani, remembeng sacrifices and paying tributes to those whomade sac:whisling:rifices and seeking love of God and welfare of all. there is no objection o addition of bhagat names but how come change of "pritham akal purakh simraye..." what is this going on. Ardass by tenth guru is perfect one  bani is without mistakes why because gurbani is the priase of lord how to be good devotee what is true guru this is all bani and bani is not story of life of any great person i do not know why people are doing this instead of educating sikhs about various social evils like casetism i think these people have more energy to be used for negative things


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## Admin (May 29, 2009)

*Re: Moved to Leaders until we see eye to eye with Inder Singh ji*

*Clarification: Thank you Inder Singh Ji for pointing out to an important omission on SPN administration's part. The rules were definitely there at place. Recently, we did upgrade the network forums for a latest version and that part was inadvertently removed.

Posting rules are now visible and enforced at following two places in red font:

1. While starting a new topic 
2. Terms of Service at each page at the footer navigation bar.

Thank you for your patience and coordination. 

Warm regards
*


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

Dasam granth manuscripts have hand written pages of Guru Gobind singh sahib,his signature and date of compilation. It is an irony that some people ignore all this and go on repeating their arguements like a parrot. If they are asked about the reference from sikh history to support their claim, they have nothing to show us. Mere rhetorics in the absence of any supporting documents is just a personal opinion and carry no value. 

Dasam granth is more open in denouncing Hindu devi and devtas. It is obvious that such people are supporting the line of anti sikh Hindus who want this scripture to be disputed as it gives sikhs their identity. 

The following is a good article by Piara singh padam dealing with authenticity of Dasam granth

*uthenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib* 
*Prof. Piara Singh Padam *​ 
Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.
An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:
Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.

The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and 
Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:

_ਦਸਮ_ _ਕਥਾ_ _ਭਾਗੌਤ_ _ਕੀ__, __ਭਾਖਾ_ _ਕਰੀ_ _ਬਨਾਇ__,__
__ਅਵਰਿ_ _ਬਾਸਨਾ_ _ਨਾਂਹਿ_ _ਪ੍ਰਭ__, __ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ_ _ਕੇ_ _ਚਾਇ__॥__2491__॥ __(__ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ__)__
__I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491._

Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:

_ਮੈਂ_ _ਨਾ_ _ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ_ _ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ_ _ਮਨਾਉਂ__। __ਕਿਸਨ_ _ਬਿਸਨੁ_ _ਕਬਹੂੰ_ _ਨਹਿ_ _ਧਿਆਊਂ__।_ _
__ਕਾਨਿ_ _ਸੁਨੇ_ _ਪਹਿਚਾਨ_ _ਨ_ _ਤਿਨ_ _ਸੋ__। __ਲਿਵ_ _ਲਾਗੀ_ _ਮੋਰੀ_ _ਪਗ_ _ਇਨ_ _ਸੋ__॥__434__॥ __(__ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ__)__
__I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434._

A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:

_ਪਾਂਇ_ _ਗਹੇ_ _ਜਬ_ _ਤੇ_ _ਤੁਮਰੇ__
__ਤਬ_ _ਤੇ_ _ਕੋਊ_ _ਆਂਖ_ _ਤਰੇ_ _ਨਹੀਂ_ _ਆਨਯੋ__।_ _
__ਰਾਮ_ _ਰਹੀਮ_ _ਪੁਰਾਨ_ _ਕੁਰਾਨ__
__ਅਨੇਕ_ _ਕਹੈਂ_ _ਮਤ_ _ਏਕ_ _ਨ_ _ਮਾਨਯੋ__॥__863__॥__
__O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions._

The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:

_ਰੀਤਿ_ _ਨ_ _ਜਾਨਤ_ _ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ_ _ਕੀ__, __ਪੈਸਨ_ _ਕੀ_ _ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ__।_ _
__ਬਿਛੂ_ _ਬਿਸੀਅਰ_ _ਬੇਸਵਾ__, __ਕਹਹੁ_ _ਕਵਨ_ _ਕੇ_ _ਮੀਤ__। __(__ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ_ _16)__
__(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone? _

Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:

_ਸੁਧ_ _ਜਬ_ _ਤੇ_ _ਹਮ_ _ਧਰੀ__, __ਬਚਨ_ _ਗੁਰ_ _ਦਏ_ _ਹਮਾਰੇ__
__ਪੂਤ__! __ਯਹੈ_ _ਪ੍ਰਣ_ _ਤੋਹਿ__, __ਪ੍ਰਾਣ_ _ਜਬ_ _ਲਗ_ _ਘਟਿ_ _ਥਾਰੇ__,__
__ਨਿਜ_ _ਨਾਰੀ_ _ਕੇ_ _ਸੰਗ_ _ਨੇਹੁ_ _ਤੁਮ_ _ਨੀਤ_ _ਬਢਈਅਹੁ__
__ਪਰ_ _ਨਾਰੀ_ _ਕੀ_ _ਸੇਜ_ _ਭੂਲਿ_ _ਸੁਪਨੇ_ _ਹੂੰ_ _ਨ_ _ਜਈਅਹੂ__॥__51__॥__
__Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."_

_ਪਰ_ _ਨਾਰੀ_ _ਕੇ_ _ਭਜੇ_ _ਸਹਸ_ _ਬਾਸਵ_ _ਭਗ_ _ਪਾਏ__
__ਪਰ_ _ਨਾਰੀ_ _ਕੇ_ _ਭਜੇ_ _ਚੰਦ੍ਰ_ _ਕਾਲੰਕ_ _ਲਗਾਏ__
__ਪਰ_ _ਨਾਰੀ_ _ਕੇ_ _ਹੇਤੁ__, __ਸੀਸ_ _'__ਦਸ_ _ਸੀਸ_ _ਗਵਾਯੋ__
__ਹੋ_ _ਪਰ_ _ਨਾਰੀ_ _ਕੈਹਤੁ__, __ਕਟਕ_ _ਕਵਰਨ_ _ਕੋ_ _ਘਾਯੋ__॥__42__॥ __(__ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ_ _21)__
_
_Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs._

_ਜਨਨਿ_ _ਜਠਰ_ _ਮਹਿਂ_ _ਆਇ_ _ਪੁਰਖ_ _ਬਹੁਤੇ_ _ਦੁਖ_ _ਪਾਵਹਿ__
__ਮੂਤ੍ਰ_ _ਧਾਮ_ _ਕੋ_ _ਪਾਇ__, __ਕਹਹਿ_ _ਹਮ_ _ਭੋਮ_ _ਕਮਾਵਹਿ__
__ਥੂਕ_ _ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ_ _ਕੋ_ _ਚਾਟਿ__, __ਕਹਿਤ_ _ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ_ _ਪਾਯੋ__
__ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ_ _ਜਗਤ_ _ਮੈਂ_ _ਜਨਮ__, __ਬਿਨਾ_ _ਜਸਦੀਸ਼_ _ਗਵਾਯੋ__। __(__ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ_ _81)__
__One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God._

These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:

The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.

All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.
The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:

_ਅਬ_ _ਮੈਂ_ _ਆਪਨੀ_ _ਕਥਾ_ _ਬਖਾਨੋ__। __ਤਪ_ _ਸਾਧਤ_ _ਜਿਹ_ _ਬਿਧਿ_ _ਮੁਹਿ_ _ਆਨੋ__।_ _(__ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ_ _ਨਾਟਕ__)__
__Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation._
and

_ਸੇਵਕ_ _ਸਿੱਖ_ _ਹਮਾਰੇ_ _ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ__। __ਚੁਨਿ_ _ਚੁਨਿ_ _ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ_ _ਹਮਾਰੇ_ _ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ__।_ _(__ਚੌਪਈ_ _ਸਾਹਿਬ__)__
__Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them._

The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.

There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.
It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:

_ਦੁਹੂੰ_ _ਗ੍ਰੰਥ_ _ਮੈ_ _ਬਾਣੀ_ _ਜੋਈ__। __ਚੁਨ_ _ਚੁਨ_ _ਕੰਠ_ _ਕਰਹਿ_ _ਨਿਤ_ _ਸੋਈ__'__।_ _(__ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ__, __ਭਾਈ_ _ਦੇਸਾ_ _ਸਿੰਘ__)__
__Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)_

It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.

The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.

Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.

We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.
 
*(Translated from ‘**ਦਸਮ* *ਗ੍ਰੰਥ* *ਦੀ* *ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ**’ Courtesy Panthic Weekly, A Khalsa Press Publication**)*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 29, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Sadh Sangat,
> Guru fateh.
> What I am going to say is just a speculation on my part but it has been on my mind for a long time and I have decided to share it with you all. After Guru Arjan Dev ji added his Gurbani in SGGS, one wonders why Guru Teg Bahadur did not added his. Why did Guru Gobind ji added his father Gurbani instead? We all know that our 9th Guru had all the time to do that before he sacrificed himself for the sake of humanity, not just for Sikhi.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Ji,
Speculation seems the order of the day...yours is just a minor one..others are speculating about huge pothis, dates, even Guru Sahibs intentions and what not....and pushing these speculations down others throats..and btw your "speculation" has more merit (logical) while the others have  self serving self sucking holes the size of Black Holes seen by Hubble !!...:crazy::crazy:.


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

These are no speculations. These are facts about dasam granth  whose banis were recited during Khalsa initiation in 1699. People need to read their history in proper before making baseless charges against the scripture of khalsa panth.


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## Inder singh (May 29, 2009)

> It is important to observe the forum rules to stick to the issues and to avoid spreading negativity. Inline deletions are not the best approach to calm the waters. Please rather abide by our rules. Thank you: aad002



Kala afghhana is an excommunicated person from sikh panth. People are on record praising him here. I hope we censor those posts also and do not resort to selective censorship.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 29, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Kala afghhana is an excommunicated person from sikh panth. People are on record praising him here. I hope we censor those posts also and do not resort to selective censorship.


 
1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values? 

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

How can one ex-communicate Gobind? 

Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.

Something to ponder about.

Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir sahib. 

As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith,they  themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of SGGS.

Let us never forget that SGGS is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on its teachings.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 29, 2009)

Inder Singh ji

Moderation note: We are not going back to the past on this one. Any thing about Kala Afghana will go into a separate thread because it is off topic. This is the Ardaas Changed thread. In addition -- as long as forum members abide with forum rules, discussions of Kala Afghana will not be censored. Talking about a point of view is not the same thing as advocating for that point of view. How else are people supposed to obtain informed opinions? Not if they are permitted access only to those things that meet with this or that spokesman's approval. If that were the way we ran this forum, there would be those members who would forbid discussion of Dasam Granth. But we encourage discussion of Dasam Granth. We discourage embargoes of timely and relevant material. That kind of action is the work of government intelligence services where everything is hush hush and secret secret. 

Now since I must moderate this thread I will not be able to be a participant in it any longer. This saddens me. Please be assured that I will mderate.

Thanks,
Antonia


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 29, 2009)

Guru Paiyario jios,

"Praise" and "knowledge" are two different things.

IF simply "knowledge" about what so and so did or wanted to do or wrote....is stated thats not praise.Even internet "Chuvarkeh" ( tarditionally in Punajb there used to be 4 page pamphlets called chauvarkehs) like "P****** weekly" print articles and news views etc and the Note" from the Editor says..PW/S***S...etc etc  doesn't necessarily agree with the views of this or that writer...in fact SPN also has the same policy - each poster is responsible for his own views and they dont necessarily have to be that of the Management/Owners/Admin of SPN.
Derogatory remarks, nindiya, character assasination etc and vulgarity in language..such as deriding soemone just for being a "mere driver"...( a huge proportion of Punjabi Sikhs in the WEST are DRIVERS by profession...so pointing out someones occupation is also alienating so many others in the same line of work is self defeating)..so many of the "sants" going around giving lectures were yesterdays Garrvaiis or  washers of their Gadeedar sants..so are we to take them lightly?? Someone having been a policeman, a driver, a garrvahhi etc has nothing to do with his personal life/status/knowledge/gursikhi jeewan etc. A Gursikh ex-Driver is much much better than a University Professor who has sold his soul to anti-sikh forcves like teh RSS etc..and is using his academic post and status to jarreehheen teil ( place oil on roots - way to kill a plant) of Sikhi/Gurmatt Bohhrr TREE..

Here on SPN we endeavour to discuss IDEAS only and leave the personalities out ( at the DOOR). Non Sikhs too are members and they are here to LEARN about SGGS/Gurmatt and Sikhi....and we should endeavour to SHARE our KNOWLEDGE. PERIOD.:welcome::welcome::welcome:


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> .What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?
> 
> 2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
> 
> ...



DELETED

Stick to the Topic and Answer the Questions.


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Dasam granth manuscripts have hand written pages of Guru Gobind singh sahib,his signature and date of compilation.




That statement is untrue. Some documents do, others don't. Dasam Granth is a collection of many documents which have been called Dasam Granth. Please furnish your evidence that *all* of Dasam Granth is penned in the 10th Masters hand?

Please also narrate the history of Anandpur Sahib and how the Dasam Granth was compiled?

Also DO NOT post from Panthic Weekly. That is an unreliable source penned by some very dark hearted individuals.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> a gursikh ex-driver is much much better than a university professor who has sold his soul to anti-sikh forcves like teh rss etc..and is using his academic post and status to jarreehheen teil ( place oil on roots - way to kill a plant) of sikhi/gurmatt bohhrr tree..



please do not make accusations without proof


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> as long as forum members abide with forum rules, discussions of Kala Afghana will not be censored. Talking about a point of view is not the same thing as advocating for that point of view. How else are people supposed to obtain informed opinions? Not if they are permitted access only to those things that meet with this or that spokesman's approval. If that were the way we ran this forum, there would be those members who would forbid discussion of Dasam Granth. But we encourage discussion of Dasam Granth. We discourage embargoes of timely and relevant material. That kind of action is the work of government intelligence services where everything is hush hush and secret secret.



Anthonia ji

I wrote that do not indulge in selective censoring. If kala afghana writes on kissa of heer ranjha( A punjabi folk lore) his personal conduct will not come in picture. Since he chose to write negatively about sikh scriptures,ethos and history it is natural that his conduct will come in picture for review. Gurbani says

Avr aupdysY Awip n krY ]
   avar o*u*padh*ae*s*ai* *aa*p n kar*ai* ||
_One who does not practice what he preaches to others,_

If you allow his praise here it is natural that you should allow news about his personal misconduct also so that sangat know what type of person was selected to tarnish sikh history and divide sikhs.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> That statement is untrue. Some documents do, others don't. Dasam Granth is a collection of many documents which have been called Dasam Granth. Please furnish your evidence that *all* of Dasam Granth is penned in the 10th Masters hand?
> 
> Please also narrate the history of Anandpur Sahib and how the Dasam Granth was compiled?
> 
> Also DO NOT post from Panthic Weekly. That is an unreliable source penned by some very dark hearted individuals.



Read all posts first and you will know dasam granth beers have pages handwritten by tenth master.These are called khas patras.

If in doubt ask gurinder singh Mann of Leister. he may show you in person if you are so eager.

The articles are written by eminent researcher Piara singh padam. What is wrong in posting these.In matters of sikh history personal likings do not count.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> Please furnish your evidence that *all* of Dasam Granth is penned in the 10th Masters hand?



There are manuscripts from 1697b and 1698. Read all posts first before asking a question.


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Read all posts first and you will know dasam granth beers have pages handwritten by tenth master.These are called khas patras.
> 
> If in doubt ask gurinder singh Mann of Leister. he may show you in person if you are so eager.
> 
> The articles are written by eminent researcher Piara singh padam. What is wrong in posting these.In matters of sikh history personal likings do not count.



Please answer the questions. Please cite sources with ISBN numbers that confirm what you are saying. I don't want references to Bhai, or places, but actual studies that demonstrate this.


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> There are manuscripts from 1697b and 1698. Read all posts first before asking a question.




Which manuscripts? Who have they been verified by?


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## AdsKhalsa (May 30, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..


I was reading this whole discussion along with listening Gurbani live from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana...(here is the link)..::: Website of Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana, Panjab, India ::: ..Shabad started was...

"Aeysa Jag Dekhya Juaari....Sab Sukh Maangey Naam Bisari.........."

I request you all to be polite....but I wonder..is there any justified reason for changing ardaas ? we always remember our shaheeds through ardaas... and they just removed 40 Mukteeyaan...whom Guru Ji loved more than Sahibjaadey.......

i am not a person to say...but just curios about this...

may be some day they will say that Sahibjadey should be first after Guru Ji..then Panj Pyareey...... one has to know the realty...first ....there as no war...so without reason..first Bhai Daya Singh stood...but after that it was sure that Guru Ji is going to take head....even then.. Bhai Dharam Singh Ji..Bhai Himmat Singh Ji...Bhai Mohkam Singh Ji, and Bhai Sahib Singh Ji came forward...

If somebody got killed in war its really appreciable and respectful...but if somebody asks  for  life, person will ask what for..

Just thought of this...

sorry I went out of topic.......

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh......


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> which manuscripts? Who have they been verified by?



please refrain from personal comments


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> Stick to the Topic and Answer the Questions.




PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PERSONAL COMMENTS


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> Which manuscripts? Who have they been verified by?



Bring your knowledge upto date before asking such silly questions.The year of compilation of manuscripts are given
1697 and 1698. You should know that Guru gobind singh was there during that time.

Now do not censor this to cover your lack of schoalrship.


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## AdsKhalsa (May 30, 2009)

Dohey hath jod...sangat aage benti hai ki..be polite...

Ek vaari Guru Nanak Ji di nimrata te Guru Amardas Ji di patience dil ch rakh ke discuss karo...

Waheguru bhali Kare...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder Singh ji writes:




> I wrote that do not indulge in selective censoring.


 
No one is doing any selective censoring. This is one more kind of grumbling to impose one's own thought process rather than Sikhi's.





> If kala afghana writes on kissa of heer ranjha( A punjabi folk lore) his personal conduct will not come in picture.


 
The above statement does not make any sense. Inder Singh ji needs to be taught what life of Miri- Piri means. It involves both Temporal and Spiritual. What does personal conduct mean? Is he a bigamist like the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat at Patna Sahib who admittedly has 2 wives. Is that personal conduct ok with Inder Singh ji?





> Since he chose to write negatively about Sikh scriptures,ethos and history it is natural that his conduct will come in picture for review.


 

What negtative things did he write about Sikh scriptures. Repeating and yelling at the top of one's voice can not make things true. Inder Singh should read what Gyani Jarnail Singh wrote in one of his posts. I know he likes to tell people and told Randip to gain some knowledge. How about gaining knowledge for the self so, so much hatred is not spewed around? I can only see hatred coming out rather than some Gurmat Vichaar.

Gurbani says



> Avr aupdysY Awip n krY ]
> avar o*u*padh*ae*s*ai* *aa*p n kar*ai* ||
> _One who does not practice what he preaches to others,_


 
Finally Inder Singh has admitted his shortcomings in the above Gurbani quote. Now he needs to practice that and lead the way so we can learn from him.

Hope to learn a lot from Inder Singh ji.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

Just to remind -- the discussion of Kala Afghana and his personal conduct and his views on Gurmat/Gurubani have been discussed on a different thread. When threads go off topic, then it is time for a clean-up. Second warning. 

Just to reflect on the words of AdaKhalsa ji - This is the anniversary of SPN -- 5 years - and to be polite for just one or two days would not cost anyone very much in social capital. Sat Nam  Antonia


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

Ada Kalsa ji

Moseration note: Develop your thinking in post 162. There is a connection -- it may have to do with loyalty to a person and to the ideal that the person stands for. Devotion to a human Guru, Gobind Singh ji, and because of the ideals he represented. It takes us back to the subject of Ardaas and what change of Ardaas would signify. Thanks for your thoughts.


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## AdsKhalsa (May 30, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Ada Kalsa ji
> 
> Moseration note: Develop your thinking in post 162. There is a connection -- it may have to do with loyalty to a person and to the ideal that the person stands for. Devotion to a human Guru, Gobind Singh ji, and because of the ideals he represented. It takes us back to the subject of Ardaas and what change of Ardaas would signify. Thanks for your thoughts.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

I will try my best ji...........

Rabb Raakha...........


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

*Two posts have been moved to a new thread at this link: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25205-kala-afghana-discussion-redux.html#post102010*

Please remember to keep comments relevant to the thread topic. Thank you, aad0002


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Bring your knowledge upto date before asking such silly questions.The year of compilation of manuscripts are given
> 1697 and 1698. You should know that Guru gobind singh was there during that time.
> 
> Now do not censor this to cover your lack of schoalrship.



Please cite some academic research that has verified this. There are hundreds of manuscripts supposedly penned by the Guru's.  I want proper verifiable research. ISBN numbers etc.

Also do not make personal remarks. One more and you will get a warning.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> Please cite some academic research that has verified this. There are hundreds of manuscripts supposedly penned by the Guru's. I want proper verifiable research. ISBN numbers etc.



You still are not getting it. Guru gobind singh was there in person when these two manuscripts were compiled. His hand writing and signature are there. What else you want?

You seem to raise questions without reading the posts in the thread.The following was posted by me in the same thread


Sri Dasam Granth Sahib of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib
* 			Glimpse of the oldest available beerh of Sri Dasam Granth from 1698 AD	*




 

 

 



Contents from the rare handwritten _beerh _of Sri Dasam Granth compiled in 1755 _Bikrami _(1698 A.D.), one year before the formation of Khalsa. The date when this historic _beerh _was compiled is given in the introductory paragraph. This beerh is preserved at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. It is noteworthy that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib’s bani "_Zafarnamah_"  which was written in 1704 A.D., six years after this _beerh _was compiled, does not feature in this _beerh_. Also noteworthy is the name of the granth that appears on the top, “_Patshah Dasven Ju Ka Granth_” (The Granth of the Tenth Master). 

 The year mentioned on this handwritten beerh is also significant because Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber too in Bansavalinama records that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had himself compiled the Granth in 1755 _Bikrami _(1698 A.D.), and this _Chhota_ Granth[1] was very dear to him. Evidently that this is one of the oldest beerhs which Guru Sahib himself compiled before the formation of the Khalsa. Later compilations of the complete banees of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is attributed to Bhai Mani Singh.

_ਛੋਟਾ ਗਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਨਮੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ। 
*ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ*, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ। 
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹਥੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਖਿਡਾਇਆ। _​ _ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ, 'ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ (ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ'।
ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, 'ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਖੇਡ ਹੈ।' 
ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦ।_​ _ਸੋ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰ ਜਾਨੋ।_​ _ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤਰ ਪੋਤਰੇ ਕਿਰ ਪਛਾਨੋ_​ 
(*ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ*)   [1] Kesar Singh Chibber calls the granth as _Chotta Granth_ (small granth) in relation to the statu


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

Dr tirlochan singh did a lot of research in manuscripts and writings in dasam granth. given below is a good article by him.


The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) - Dr. Trilochan Singh

* 			The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) - Dr. Trilochan Singh	*




 

 

 

_ 
_
* Patshahi10.Org is pleased to present this important piece of work on the history of Sri Dasam Granth by Dr. Trilochan Singh, an authoritative exponent of Sikh history, theology, philosophy and culture. This work, in four parts, was published in The Sikh Review in 1955. And up till now this remains a benchmark work on the history and compilation of Sri Dasam Granth - Admin​ *

*The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1)*​ *Dr. Trilochan Singh*​ Guru Gobind Singh's mind was a towering Himalaya of light from whose teeming caverns there flowed a mighty river of songs in whose placid depths he set the reflected image of all the tragedy and bliss of life.
  His imagination was a seraph, which sounded all depths and measured all heights. It touched the intangible, it saw the invisible, it heard the inaudible and it gave body and shape to the inconceivable. It gathered gems from all mines, gold from all sands, pearls from all seas and songs from every battle of _dharma._
       Guru Gobind Singh bequeathed to mankind a literary, historical and philosophic estate which time cannot destroy. He breathed into the nostrils of the heavenly Muse the breath of a new immortality. He sang of his God and his soul. He sang of creation and the rise and fall of civilization. He sang of the wars of _dharma, _of the heroes of the glorious past of India and of the figurative gods and goddesses of mythology. He sang of the lovers and martyrs of truth.
 The fever of the age, the misery of the people, the degradation of the country and its culture, the mute appeals of the oppressed became the problems of his life which he solved with the pen, the sword, the mind and his godlike spirit.
 Guru Gobind Singh's mind was a resistless flood which deluged everything that came into contact with it with glory, strength and spiritual glow. He desired that his Sikhs should develop all sides of their personality. He himself developed on all sides the exhuberance of his powers without losing himself in their multiplicity.
*MISUNDERSTOOD AND MISINTERPRETTED GENIUS*
 It is, however, to be regretted that writers on Guru Gobind Singh have been led away by their just admiration for one aspect of his life to an unjust and even ignorant depreciation of various other equally important aspects of his life.

 It becomes impossible for some devout Sikhs to understand that the Guru who was the creator of the Khalsa and who in many fundamental ways parted radically from Hinduism could write such secular writings as life stories of the _avtars _of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva such as his Triya Charitar and Chandi Charitar. It becomes equally difficult for non-Sikh writers to understand that a Guru who has written glowing accounts of Chandi, Lord Krishna, Buddha and the great ascetics Dattatreya and Paras Nath was not a worshipper or a devotee of any of these. While he had a profound respect for these personalities who were gifted with special, divine qualities, he condemned the worship of these heroes and sages of our country as deities and godheads. 
 There is another class of writers who do not understand Guru Gobind Singh's use of the sword of _dharma _and the great social and spiritual significance he attached to it. His autobiography explains the circumstances under which he had to use the sword in actual battles. When hordes of aggressors, generally numbering more than ten times his men, attacked his home and hearth without rhyme or reason, he had no other way out but to resort to the sword Extremist non-violence at such juncture had kept India in slavery century after century.*[1]*
 Another negative argument, though without much grounds, is that since Guru Gobind Singh was always preoccupied with battles and conflicts with the rulers, how was it that he had so much time to write such monumental works. Such people should know that out of five of a Sikh's morning prayers three compositions are by Guru Gobind Singh. Such is the importance he attached to his poetic works.

 Guru Gobind Singh was far more conscious of being a poet than being a warrior, or a prophet. The title of the prayer composed by him reads: Kabio ach Benti Chaupai, which means, The Prayer of the Poet in Chaupai Metre. In his autobiography, Apni Katha, the chapter describing his birth in the first person is entitled Ath Kabi Janam Kathnan.

 No ruler in Indian history had as many as 50 poets and innumerable additional writers whose patronage was coveted by emperors like Aurangzeb. If Guru Gobind Singh found time to examine the works of 52 poets he could easily find time to write profusely. He rewarded two poets with 60,000 _mohars _each for translating some cantos of the Mahabharata into Hindi and Panjabi. He never gave even half this much reward to any of his warriors.

 When the war clouds loomed heavily over Anandpur he asked those poets who could not handle the sword to leave. On their departure they were profusely garlanded, taken in procession on elephants, given rich gifts and presents. Above all they were given a salute of guns. According to a poet, the neighbouring _rajas _on hearing the salute were terror stricken and thought that Guru Gobind Singh was preparing an attack with unprecedented might.

 While education was compulsory, military training was optional. Yet in that atmosphere the inspiration to become a poet was so great that labourers working in the stables took part in poetry contests. The military training was entrusted to some of the greatest military geniuses of the time. Among them were Guru Gobind Singh's maternal uncle Kirpal Chand, who was also the Guru's teacher from childhood, and five sons of Bibi Viro (daughter of Guru Har Gobind) named Sango Shah, Jit Mal, Gulab Chand, Ganga Ram and Mahri Chand. Each of these warriors was given a command of 500 to 800 soldiers. Sango Shah Avas the Commander-in-Chief in the battle of Bhangani; when he fell a martyr on the twelfth day of fighting, Guru Gobind Singh took the command in his own hands. The younger generation took arms so very eagerly that the poet Hir said, "A child _siugh _learns the use of the sword long before he learns to tie his turban."

 While all other misunderstandings will become clear in their proper places, one misunderstanding created by the self-styled puritans called the _bhasurias _must be cleared here. They tried to prove that most of the Dasm Granth was written by the poets Ram and Shyam, names which occur in one or two compositions in the Dasm Granth. There is more than sufficient internal and external evidence in every composition to show that all the writings in the Dasm Granth were the works of Guru Gobind Singh. As we discuss each composition we will explain the purpose of each work and also give internal proofs of its authenticity.
 The names Ram and Shyam are used in some places as pen names. Actually speaking, they were not pen names but poetic translations of Guruji's names. Guruji's name Gobind is an attributive name of God; so also are Ram and Shyam. In Sikh theology the three words _govind, ram _and _syam _mean the same thing as the following quotations from the Guru Granth prove:

_Siyam sundar taj nind kiun ai _(Guru Arjan: Suhi)

_Siyam sundar taj an jo cahit jion, kusti tan jok _(Surdas: Sarang)

_govind govind govind har gurni nidhan_

_govind govind govind jap mukh ujla pardhan _(Guru Bam Das: Var Kanra)
_ram ram kirtan gae_

_ram ram ram sada sahae _(Guru Arjan: Rag Gond)
 In all the above quotations from the Guru Granth the words _ram, syam _and _govind _mean the same thing and so also do they in the Dasm Granth where they stand for Guru Gobind Singh. That is why two or sometime all three of these names occur in the same composition.*[2]*
 This practice of writing a synonym for the proper noun in the Dasm Granth applies not only to his own name but to many other names also. In the Dasm Granth, Guru Gobind Singh writes Netra Trung for Naina Devi, Satdrav for Satluj, Dasmpur for Anandpur, Shah Sangram for Sango Shah, and Madra-desh for the Punjab.

 Even in our own times Bhai Sahib Vir Singh's maternal uncle Pandit Hazara Singh wrote his name Hazoor Hari while his father Dr. Charan Singh wrote his name Charan Hari. Sardar Dharma Anant Singh, in his book Plato and the True Enlightener of Soul, writes the name of Sant Attar Singh as Mrigindus Atrus.

 So Ram, Shyam and Govind are synonymous names of Guru Gobind Singh.


 Almost all these works were written by Guru Gobind Singh between the ages of 16 and 35. In the Dasm Granth purely religious and philosophic compositions have 878 verses. But the introductions and the epilogues to all the secular verses are important religious compositions and number about 500. So the philosophic verses number nearly 1,378. 
 Akal Ustat and Gyan Prabodh were more than twice what we find in the Dasm Granth. Had they survived, the religious poems in the Dasm Granth would have been twice the number we have now. It is not out of place to conclude that Guru Gobind Singh's contribution to religious literature far exceeds any other Guru's contribution to the Guru Granth. Contributions by the other Gurus and by Kabir to the Guru Granth are: Guru Nanak, 974 verses; Guru Angad, 62; Guru Amar Das, 907; Guru Ram Das, 697; Guru Arjan, 2,218; Guru Tegh Bahadur, 116; and Kabir, 541 verses. 
 All the works were compiled by Guru Gobind Singh, but unfortunately almost all were lost in the sack of Anandpur and the battle of Chamkaur in 1704. The last four years of the Guru's life were spent in compiling the final version of Guru Granth Sahib and in making journeys east and south. A few months before his death the Guru sent his wife and Bhai Mani Singh to take care of the Sikhs in Delhi and Punjab. The divine mother was to stay at Delhi and Bhai Mani Singh was to tour Punjab. 
 After the passing away of Guru Gobind Singh the Punjab was in a very unsettled condition. Around 1714 Mata Sundri asked Bhai Mani Singh to take the religious leadership of the Sikh Panth in his own hands with Amritsar as his headquarters. He was also instructed to compile the works of Guru Gobind Singh into a collected volume. The following letter from Bhai Mani Singh written in April 1714 shows the appalling conditions of the time and the missionary zeal of the great saint-scholar. In the light of this letter the statement of the eminent historian Gyani Gyan Singh that Bhai Mani Singh was living with barely five or six Sikhs at Amritsar is not unbelievable. Bhai Mani Singh managed to live during these aweful times because of his profound influence on both the Muslims and Hindus;


 (Translation of the letter; the photostat of the original given opposite page 57.) 
_The One prevaileth everywhere. May the Immortal be our saviour. Most revered divine mother, Mani Singh makes obeisance at thy feet. News further is that on coming here my body has been suffering from acute wind-ailment and my health has been deteriorating. I meditated on the songs of healing thrice. But there has been no slackness in the service of the Golden Temple. The Khalsa has lost its hold in the Punjab and the Sikhs are retreating to the forests and mountains. The whole of the Punjab is under the sway of the despots. Even in the villages the life of the young men and women is not safe. They are hunted and killed mercilessly. The enemies of the Guru have joined hands with them. The handaliyas (followers of an impostor guru) are spying on the Sikhs and are betraying them to the enemies.Almost everyone has left Amritsar. The clerks and accountants have fled. So far the Almighty has protected me. 1 cannot say what may happen tomorrow. The Master's words will come to pass. Binod Singh's grandson has passed away. Among the books I sent there is a volume of 303 Triya Charitar Upakhyan written by the master. Please give that volume to Sihan Singh who lives in the interior of the city. So far I have not been able to trace Shastra Nam Mala Puran. I have found the first part of Krishna Avtar but not the second part. If I get it I will send it. There is a rumour here that Banda has made good his escape. May the Lord protect him. Guru Angad's family at Khadur has sent five tolas of old for your adopted son's bride.*[3]* Please recover seventeen rupees from Jhanda Singh. I gave him five rupees to meet the expenses of the journey. He has some bad habits and he will squander the money. The accountants have not as yet given me the accounts, otherwise I would have sent a hundi from the big city (Lahore). If my health improves I shall come some time in October or November. _
_Baisakh 22. _
_Sd/ Mani Singh _
_Please reply in the bamboo stick._

*The Romanized copy of Bhai Mani Singh's letter to Mata Sundri ji*​ ​ _ih onkar akal sahae_
_puj mata ji de carnan par mani singh ki dandaut bandna. Bahoro samacar vacna ke idhar aon par sada sarir vayu ka adhik vikari hoe gaea hai-suast nahi hoea, tap ki kala do bar suni. par mandar ki seva men koi alak nahi. des vic khalse da bal chut gaea hai. sihgh parbatan babanan vic jae base hain. malechon ki des men dohi hai. basti men balak juva istri salamat nahi. much much kar marde hain. guru darohi bi unan de sang mil gae hain. handalie mil kar mukbari karde hain. sabi cak chod gae hain. mutsadi bhag gae hain. sade par abi to akal ki racha hai. kal ki khabar nahi. sahiban de hukam atal hain. binod singh de putrele da hukam sat hoe gaea hai. pothian jo jhanda singh hath bheji thi unan vic sahiban de 303 caritar upkhiyan di pothi jo hai so sihan sihgh nun mahal vic dena ji. Nam mala ki pothi di khabar abi mili nahi. karisnavtar purbaradh to mila utraradh nahi. je mila asi bhej devange. des vic goga hai ke banda bandhan mukat hoe bhag gaea hai. sahib bahudi karan ge. tola par sona sahibjade ki gharni ke abhukhan lai guru kiaa khandur se bheja hai 17 rajatpan bi jhanda singh se bhar panen. 5 rajatpan ise tosa dia is nun badraka bi hai. is se uth janven ge. mutsadion ne hisab nahi dia jo dende tan bade sahir se hundi kardi bhejde. asade sarir di rachia rahi tan kuar de mahine avange. _
_mili vaisakh 22. _
_daskhat manisingh_
_guru cak bunga. _
_juab pori main_
 The letter reveals the following facts:



Such secular works as Krishna Avtar, Triya Charitar and Shastar Nam Mala Puran were written by Guru Gobind Singh and not by any other poet. 
The Sikh historians are mistaken when they believe      that Bhai Mani Singh took charge of the Golden Temple in 1722. This letter, written five months after Baba Banda's arrest and two months before his execution, shows that Bhai Mani Singh was there much earlier, probably in 1713 or 1714. 
Finding the Akal Ustat incomplete, Mr. Macauliffe said that "there is an obvious defect in the arrangement of the composition." There is, as a matter of fact, no defect. Mr. Macauliffe did not know the works were collected after strenuous efforts and more than what is there was not available until then. 
 Bhai Mani Singh completed the compilation in 1734, four years before he himself became a victim of the Moghul tyranny and his body was cut joint by joint. 
 Some of the prominent Sikhs such as Baba Binod Singh (mentioned in the letter and probably staying at that time with Bhai Mani Singh), Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Sukha Singh prepared their own copies from the compiled copy. I have not seen the copies prepared by Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Bhai Mani Singh but if a search is made I think they can still be found. 
 I have seen the copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh which contains 28 pages written in Guru Gobind Singh's own hand. Binod Singh's descendents presented this copy of the Dasm Granth to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's _durbar _and they received Rs. 125/- per month as a gift for it. It then came to the Patiala _durbar _and until 1947 the descendents of Baba Binod Singh were getting Rs. 25/- per month. 
 Baba Binod Singh was a direct descendent of Baba Dasu, son of Guru Angad. Baba Binod Singh was also one of the five apostles under whose guidance Banda Bahadur was supposed to work at the instructions of Guru Gobind Singh. So a copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh is an authentic and direct copy of the originally compiled version by Bhai Mani Singh. This Dasm Granth is at present in the Moti Bagh Palace, Patiala, and I had an opportunity to study it in detail some time ago. 
 Six years after the compilation of he book and two years after the death of Bhai Mani Singh a dispute arose among the scholars as to whether such philosophic writings as the Jap and Akal Ustat should remain side by side with secular writings or whether they should be kept in separate volumes. Such scholars maintained that it was not proper to discuss writings like Triya Charitar in the _gurdvaras. _No one, of course, doubted that the works were those of Guru Gobind Singh. The matter was decided in a strange way *[4] *
 Bhai Mehtab Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh who were there said that if they succeeded in killing Massa Ranghar who was occupying Amritsar and using the Golden Temple as a pleasure house the Dasm Granth should remain intact. If, however, they died in the attempt, the books of the Dasm Granth should be separated. .Fortune most strangely favoured keeping the Dasm Granth in one volume. 
 According to Macauliffe the name of Dasm Granth was given to the collection much later. This is not correct. The title of Binod Singh's collections and of other older recensions is Dasm Patshah ka Granth, which means the same thing as Dasm Granth, Work of the Tenth Guru. 
 In 1896 leaders of the Singh Sabha movement found that copies of the Dasm Granth began to differ in the spelling of words. As the copyists knew only Panjabi and not Hindi and Persian they made many mistakes in writing these languages. So a committee of scholars was appointed which prepared an edition to be printed for the first time. They collected some 32 old texts of the Dasm Granth, but they unfortunately left the proof reading to the printers Messrs, Gulab Singh & Sons who in printing have made countless errors which even distort the meaning of the original. Either the scholars who prepared this or the publishers have made two grievous errors: 


They have written on the title page "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Dasm Patshahi" which seems to be a distortion of Dasm Patshahi ka Granth which is found on most of the old recensions. This Granth was not installed as a _guru _so it is wrong to call it Guru      Granth. 
The first verse of the 33 _swayas: jagat      jot japai nis basar, _has been omitted. 
 What is to be noted is that all the eminent scholars of the Singh Sabha movement accepted the whole of the Dasm Granth as the work of Guru Gobind Singh. 
 In 1915 there arose an assumedly puritan school of thought at Bhasaur under Babu Teja Singh, a retired overseer, a good organizer but with a hopelessly shallow intellect. He and a few of his hired _gyanis _not only started a campaign against Dasm Granth but even compiled a Guru Granth of their own excluding the works of Kabir and other _bhagtas. _He even changed the mass prayer of the Sikhs. As a reformist, in the beginning he gathered some support but when he stooped to flagrant abuse of history and facts he was condemned by a proclamation from the Akal Takht and his activities were declared Singh's poets. The genius of one most un-Sikh-like. 
 This school has died an inevitable visible death and no Sikh scholar of importance believes that any part of Dasm Granth was written by Guru  Gobind Singh's poets. The genius of one mind, the art style of one poet is visible in the whole of Dasm Granth.
 That genius and style is of Guru Gobind Singh and no other.  
*[1].* Muhsin Fani, Guru Har Gobind's contemporary, declared that "both Guru Har Gobind and Guru Gobind Singh did not use the sword out of anger on any occasion. The wars they fought were not communal; they were fought against the Hindu _rajas _and the Moghul armies. In his armies there were Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs." Even Mahatma Gandhi, writing in his article, The Doctrine of the Sword, said: "I do believe that when there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should in a cowardly manner remain a helpless victim to her own dishonour." 
*[2]**.* In the Guru Granth the name Gobind is written both as Govind and Gobind. But in Guru Gobind Singh's writings it always occurs with " b " as Gobind. Guru Gobind Singh spent most of his life in the Doaba area of the Punjab where the words with "v" are pronounced " b . " Guru Gobind Singh used it very often in his writings. He writes _bade bade _for _vade vade; maru bajia _for _maru vajia; abigat _for _avigat; _Bishnu for Vishnu; _barn _for _varn, _and innumerable other cases. So Guruji preferred to write his name as Gobind and not as Govind. 
*[3]**.* Mata Sundri saw a young boy who in features resembled her eldest son Ajit Singh so much that she adopted him much against the wishes and advice of Bhai Mani Singh and desired that all relatives and Sikhs should treat him as her son. She even arranged his marriage as poor compensation for her deeply cherished desire to have seen the marriage of Ajit Singh, who fell a martyr in the battle of Chamkaur. This adopted son proved so hopeless that he had to be publicly disowned. He even discarded the Sikh faith under the threats of the Muslim rulers. Latter he was involved in a crime and as punishment was tied to the tail of an elephant and met a terrible death. 
*[4]**.* To belittle the martyrdom of Bhai Mani Singh some people invented the story that he was cursed by the Sikhs for dividing the Guru Granth into parts authorwipe. It was Bhai Mani Singh who wrote the final version of Guru Granth Sahib as dictated by Guru Gobind Singh. Bhai Mani Singh would never have dared to undo it. The fact that Bhai Mani Singh was in favour of having even Dasm Granth in one volume disproves this theory
*to be continued....*


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> You still are not getting it. Guru gobind singh was there in person when these two manuscripts were compiled. His hand writing and signature are there. What else you want?
> 
> You seem to raise questions without reading the posts in the thread.The following was posted by me in the same thread
> 
> ...



I think you misunderstand.

These sites I can find, I am looking for some academic research. There is a lot of stuff I am reading at the moment where some Sikh academics are going to the extent of verifying Sikh hukamanama's.

The classic case of Gandha Singh and Hukamname comes to mind where most have not been verified and many have been proved to be fake.

Have you any academic research? Chandigarh University maybe etc?


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> I think you misunderstand.
> 
> These sites I can find, I am looking for some academic research. There is a lot of stuff I am reading at the moment where some Sikh academics are going to the extent of verifying Sikh hukamanama's.
> 
> ...



Availability of original manuscripts( We have three here in digitzed form) is the biggest proof. There was a sodhak committe formed in last decade of nineteenth century. They concluded by going through various manuscripts that whole Dasam granth is the work of tenth master.

Gurinder singh Mann a scholar from england has done  his masters in this subject. He was with me in USA last year. He has a lot of research in dasam granth. That is the reason i mentioned him to you. But you took it as a joke.

He knows Madra and Paramjit singh. Meet him and he will let you know all the details.


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## AdsKhalsa (May 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Respected Inder Singh Ji,
> 
> I am astounded...........GUTKAS are NOT GRANTHS.  How could a GUTKA have BOTH "GRANTHS"...??? do you mean Banis... ?? and Panj Granthi pothis etc. I use the Das Granthi pothi to teach....that is bani of GGS.
> 
> ...



Gyani Ji..

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.......

Maafi chawanga...but "BAANI GURU..GURU HAI BAANI"..even Pothis (here I mena Gutka) I don't use Gutka..because it is not used by our Gurus...they used Pothi.."POTHI PARMESHAR KA THAAN"...so every page that contains baani is Guru Swaroop, but can not take a place of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...Pothi has the same repect as SGGS Ji... because we bow to Baani...not a Book...if somebody just keep a book with even a bigger size without gurbani in it..we will not treat it as Guru....because It doesn't have Baani...so ultimately we are bowing to Baani...and when its contains sampooran baani of 1430 
Ang ..its Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji......

( this all I heard in Katha.)

Bhul chuk maaf.......

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...


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## AdsKhalsa (May 30, 2009)

*Re: [SPN] Ardaas Changed by Gurudwara Sangat in Finland*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> A MAJOR and DRASTIC OVERHAUL is needed..and it will COME...sooner than later...the Berri is FULL..it will soon SINK. When Jathedars give feeble excuses like..Let the 300th Anniversary clebrations be over..then we will decide...Let the Keshgarh Jathedars sons weddign be over..then we will decide....thats when the ROT is overwhelmingly apparent. Fortunes of a NATION cannot and must not be made to wait for  aJathedar's sons wedding to be over !!! ( btw that particular wedding has been OVER for many many MONTHS now....!!)



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..

You are right Gyani ji.............


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## Amarpal (May 31, 2009)

Dear Khalsa Ji,

As a Sikh, I worship 'Nirakaar' and seek the grace of 'The Sat' to become its perfect intrument to work for its creation as long as I am enbodied.

Ardas as it is, is mostly about 'Akaars' with some sprinkling about 'Nirakaar'. 

My prayers are always to 'The Sat' - 'The Nirakaar'. All the Gurus Sahibs are my Gurus and I learn Sikhi from their lives and teaching enshrined in Siri Guru Granth Sahib; I revere them, but do not worship them. I worship only the 'Nirakaar' which Guru Sahib has asked us to do.

My worship is limited to Jaap, Simran and Sewa; my efforts are directed to cleanse my thought process and strive for a pure functioning brain which will lead me to virtuous living as asked by Guru Sahibs in Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## Randip Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Availability of original manuscripts( We have three here in digitzed form) is the biggest proof. There was a sodhak committe formed in last decade of nineteenth century. They concluded by going through various manuscripts that whole Dasam granth is the work of tenth master.
> 
> Gurinder singh Mann a scholar from england has done  his masters in this subject. He was with me in USA last year. He has a lot of research in dasam granth. That is the reason i mentioned him to you. But you took it as a joke.
> 
> He knows Madra and Paramjit singh. Meet him and he will let you know all the details.




I think you are missing the point, I want you to direct me to sources that have verified these manuscripts.

I want actual names of books or reports that have studied these with ISBN numbers.

Have you got these, if not, just say so?


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## Randip Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Dr tirlochan singh did a lot of research in manuscripts and writings in dasam granth. given below is a good article by him.
> 
> 
> The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) - Dr. Trilochan Singh



There seems to be no analysis of authenticity.


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

> There seems to be no analysis of authenticity.



What type of analysis of authenticity we are seeking for the bani of our Guru.Religious scriptures are above academic analysis.

Nevertheless Dasam granth manuscripts were studied by sodhak committe in Amritsar around 1897. They gave their report finding them the bani of tenth master.


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

Randip

Given in this link is the report of sodhak committee

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

*Re: Change done in ardass in Finland*



bhupindersingh said:


> Dear Jaspi,
> 
> Gurufateh ji,
> 
> ...




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Well said...I appreciate it.................


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....



I request you all to please read this post with open mind...because then only we will learn true Sikhi...I am ignorant and doesn't have knowledge..whatever I collected from listening Katha veechar and felt Gurbani and Sikhi...I would like to share it with you.... I am sorry to use harsh and ignorant words...please forgive me thinking me as new ...without knowledge and a learner........






I think that we all are fighting with our own opinion and conclusions. One says something and other starts targeting it, and then other comes and defends one’s point. 
  Does anybody exactly know what was the actual reason and justification behind changing Ardaas. First let’s  find out the reason, then we will start discussion over it, because we are providing our views, but what they thought before changing it, is crucial to find root cause so that difficulty has to be cut out from root.  I feel that we should follow Akal Takht...superemo....rarther than wonder around the world.  We should try to make our system at SGPC full proof...rather than coming up with new ruling authorities.......other wise one day we will have many authorities giving different rulings.....like what we have now in many Gurdwaras........please come together and change the world........






> *HARTEJ KOUR *
> this change in Ardaas is made for the good and i don’t think there is anything debatable on this..


-I request you humbly my sister to please justify the change with comparison of old and new ardaas, and please elaborate your thinking?. We don’t want people who direct goats sitting on camel..its a proverb… 

  -“Har Jas sune…Na Har Jas Gaavey….Baatan Hee Se Asmaan Girvaey” (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)






> *RUPINDER SINGH*
> In my opinion..Nothing has been done wrong...


-Veer Ji…please elaborate your opinion.
  We all know this has been a long standing issue around panth but SGPC has been ignoring it for a long time only from the fear that it is a sensitive topic.

 -Mera Guru maaf kare apne daas nu...............let suppose  tomorrow a fool and idiot like me will say that we should also cut short all remaining paras of Ardaas and say that we don’t need Ek Onkaar .rather we will change it to Ek Akal Purakh Prasad…. and start propaganda for this in local area , write letter to SGPC for a year..and suddenly come out with my own ardaas, and that is to be common vote of sangat of local gurdwara…where I have influence, and blame SGPC that because you have not responded, I changed it…then not only me but everybody will say that this guy is insane……. …does any body really knows about this issue earlier…that Finland wants to change Ardaas…and why?




> And I dont think it is anything about showing anti-faminine attitude at all..but It is about extending the theme of Guru Granth Sahb into Ardaas. Sikhs are never told to worship idols..they are only told to worship The True God. And Akal Purkh could not be translated as Kal Purush Mahadev as the very starting lines of Guru Granth sahb explain "Karta Purkh" as formless. It is just a way to address GOD. True Sikhs have due respect for females and will continue to do so.


  -Where it says that Bhagawti means a idol or devi…? Please go through the links: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25092-ardaas-changed-7.html#post101324
  -http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25092-ardaas-changed-7.html#post101336
  We respect our Shastrs also.. we bow to them …they are great because our Guru Ji, Baba Deep Singh Ji…and many other Sikhs made them respectful for us….no body respects Sword of Aurgenjeb…because the purpose of using it was wrong…Sikhs can make anything respectful…they made weapons respectful……do you think its idol worship ?




> But now the suit is there some will wear it and some won't


  -Even Radha Soami and Dera Saccha Sauda, and many others have suit ready…so do Sikhs wear it? We have to decide what is wrong and what is right. Not everything happens is right, and not everything happens is wrong. But changing first lines of ardaas which is said by our Guru is actually changing Gurbani ( A baani from Guru) (in hindi it means Vaani of Guru…) and this has to be stopped before it damages whole Sikh system.….which will happen soon, if it is not stopped.




> BILLMAMAK
> 
> Remember Ardas is just a prayer. Say it in any manner and any language and anywhere. To whom it is addressed will understand and accept.


  -You are right..but you really not bothered about changing something which is said by our Guru? I agree to change to some extent…change the rest of portion of Ardaas, but that has to be from SGPC and should be universally broadcasted. Changing our Guru wordings is really disgraceful to whole Sikh foundation

Please read this post by Bhupinder Singh Ji: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25092-ardaas-changed-6.html#post101309



> -par (parminder)singh Ji
> usa
> Let us propogate Sikh and Sikhi of AGGS, and move away from the Khalsa rituals which are more akin to Brahmanism. (period).


- Veer ji..I request you to try to find out the reason why it tooks 10 Shareer or Jaama and 1430 Angs to complete Sikhi and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I hope you will find a reason of creation of Khalsa, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  I am getting a message from your  that we should follow earlier process which is easy, for example…don’t smoke…just eat raw tobacco leaf..its easy.. ( it’s a negative example…(Sorry for using this example…I mean something else)..lest have some positive example…. say lets drink water, eat sugar, tea powder…there is no need to cook it to get a tea….. ( Bhul chuk maaf..but this came to mind after reading your reply)






> 'every Khalsa is a Sikh, but not every Sikh is a Khalsa'. These are TWO separate entities, and should live in harmony and with absolute respect for each other. I am a Sikh of AGGS. It is time to follow the teachings of our Gurus, let us all work to remove the shackles of rituals, which got added upon us without even our knowing.


-Wrongly Said…first one has to be Sikh, then he will become Singh…Singh is only after he Armit Chak and becomes Khalsa….the basic principle and understanding is not clear..Guru Gobind Singh Ji was Guru Gobind Rai…before Amrit Chak and became Singh only after Amrit Chak. I particularly say that if somebody is mona..then he is neither Sikh, nor of any religion. Because earlier everybody used to keep hairs, muslims, hindus, even in European countries…but they were not Sikh….one has to follow Guru Nanak to be called as Sikh……. I know I am harsh..but I have to clarify the truth that Sikhs basic identity is our Guru Nanak …who kept his hairs…and first Sikh was Bibi Naanki, Second was Nawab Rai Bular (a muslim)…and at later stage, before starting UDAASI- starting journey for Srilanka (Sangla Deep) to meet Raja Shiv Naab,  Guru Nanak Ji gave Charan Pahul to Rai Bular . Even in Sri Lanka..Guru Nanak Ji gave charan Pahul to many for letting them in Sikhism…and Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave it to us forever via Panj Pyare…… Like a son of scientist may not be a scientist…a son or daughter of Sikh may not be a Sikh…I don’t know how a person proudly say that he is a sikh without hairs, and even have Singh as his middle name….Sikh…then Singh………Sikh means who is learner of Guru and if anyone hasn’t learned the teachings of Guru, then I don’t think he is a Sikh. Particularly he is without any religion, without any Murshid…(Sorry if I hurted any body reading this)

  -“Kesh Shastr Bin Pao Lakh nar Jaano” means a person (nar) without Kesh is ¼, and who have kesh, but not the Shastr..he is 1/2 . Guru Ji not used Sikh here…because without kesh a person can not be called as Sikh…one more thing (Please go through these recording, it recorded in April 2009, this Baisakhi Pruab)

  -zSHARE - What is Khalsa..._.mp3

  -zSHARE - SIKH IS ALL FOUR.mp3

  -zSHARE - VAISAKHI KATHA 2009- 1.mp3

  -zSHARE - VAISAKHI KATHA 2009 - 2.mp3

  -zSHARE - VAISAKHI KATHA 2009 - 3.mp3

  -zSHARE - VAISAKHI KATHA 2009 - 4.mp3


zSHARE - KATHA VAISAKHI DIWAS 2008-GDNS LDH.mp3

 -“Rehat Bina Neh Sikh Kahavey…Rehat Bina Dar Chottan Khawey” , “Rehni Rahey Soyi Sikh Mera…O Sahib ..Main Uska Chera”………..and what is first step of Rehat… “Pratham Rehat Eh Jaan ..Khande Ki Pahul Chake”.  in turn it means...Without Amrit Chak..a person is not a Sikh…….. 

Please try to learn ....kill ignorance with knowledge....

Bhul Chuk Maaf..........please forgive me if I hurt anybody.....I am not having a great knowledge of sikhi...but whatever I learned.. sharing with you........ 

Daas bhulanhaar hai..Guru Roop Sangat bakshanhaar hai....daas di galtiyaan baksh lena ji..........

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your write:



> I have to clarify the truth that Sikhs basic identity is our Guru Nanak …who kept his hairs…and first Sikh was Bibi Naanki, Second was Nawab Rai Bular (a muslim)…and at later stage, before starting UDAASI- starting journey for Srilanka (Sangla Deep) to meet Raja Shiv Naab, *Guru Nanak** Ji gave Charan Pahul to Rai Bular . Even in Sri Lanka..**Guru Nanak** Ji gave charan Pahul to many for letting them in Sikhism…*


 
Please elaborate the concept of *Charan Pahul* from Gurmat viewpoint. You can use SGGS as your guide, our only Guru now to explain it if you wish to.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Adskhalsa ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh Ji...

Thanks for encouraging me to find out this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...I will try my best...with Guru's Grace......Before being Khalsa creation...Charan Pahul was a tradition where Guru Ji keep thumb of feet in water and Sikhs drink that...well I heard it in Katha veechar...of Suraj Prakash...Ithihass Guru Nanak Dev Ji...live from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana...Uploaded the live recordings at Sikhitube.com but presently that site is down...its down since last one week...but a concerned person emailed me that whenever that site will up..he will email me....... Once that up..will provide the Ithihaas links here....... till then let me find out a support from SGGS Ji.......I am just a beginner and as you are Waheguru Seeker.....I am far behind you standing in the same line...I will try my best Veer Ji...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.........


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

> (parminder)singh Ji
> usa
> Let us propogate Sikh and Sikhi of AGGS, and move away from the Khalsa rituals which are more akin to Brahmanism. (period).


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...


   reading again an incident came to mind...Guru Ji is really great........

let share with you...

A Brahim Pandit once told Guru Gobind Singh Ji by creating Khalsa..you acutally bounded Sikhs in Cage...Guru Ji told him...Pandit Ji...will give you answer some day.......

A day came...and somebody gifted gold to Guru Gobind Singh Ji... Guru Ji..asked that Pandit...please check and tell that is this Gold is pure...Pandit ji said that Maharaj this is gifted by your Sikhs and your Sikhs will give you pure.......Guru Ji said..not like this...just check and then confirm...Pandit told that we need a Kasvati (a stone to check gold) and goldsmith to check the purity.........Goldsmith came and checked..the gold was pure...

Guru Ji told .....Pandit ji..this is the answer of your question regarding Khalsa....Pandit got confused and requested Guru Ji to elaborate......

Then Guru Ji said that I don't want somebody will blame my Khalsa and say that he is not pure....He/sje can look upon himself / herself and find out that ....Whether he /she is really pure ...Khalis (Pure)...like here goldsmith was required to chek the purity of gold....My Khalsa...doesn't need anybody to check him/her and prove his/her purity..............if my Khalsa is pure ...this rehat is his/ her Kasvati and he/she can check himself/herself.........

I heard this saakhi long time back in  Katha.......from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib , Ludhiana  

Bhul Chuk Maaf............

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh........


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Tejwant Singh Ji...
> 
> Thanks for encouraging me to find out this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...I will try my best...with Guru's Grace......Before being Khalsa creation...*Charan Pahul was a tradition where Guru Ji keep thumb of feet in water and Sikhs drink that*...well I heard it in Katha veechar...of Suraj Prakash...Ithihass Guru Nanak Dev Ji...live from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana...Uploaded the live recordings at Sikhitube.com but presently that site is down...its down since last one week...but a concerned person emailed me that whenever that site will up..he will email me....... Once that up..will provide the Ithihaas links here....... till then let me find out a support from SGGS Ji.......I am just a beginner and as you are Waheguru Seeker.....I am far behind you in line...I will try my best Veer Ji...
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.........



Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

1.Please share with us what kind of Sikh tradition and based on what Gurmat principles the ritual of *Charan Pahul *was practiced? 

2.Why would our Gurus insert their big toe in the water and make people drink it when they did not even write their own names while writing Gurbani which is in SGGS?
They only gave themselves mere numbers?

3.What would the water become by inserting one's toe and make people drink it?

4.Initiation in what?

5.If this initiation was the only way to become Sikhs, then how about those who did not take it?

6.Was there anything tangible, like a janeiu kind of necklace, a bracelet etc etc given to those who were initiated like that as a proof that they had taken *Charan Pahul* and hence had become Sikhs?

7. Does this initiation contradict or compliment the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir Sahib?

Your responses based on Gurmat values would be highly appreciated.

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Adskhalsa ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Tejwant Singh Ji...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Wehguru Ji Ki Fateh..

Good questions...but did Panj Pyare asked Guru Ji...why you need head ? if somebody will say that flower contains frangnence...and if I will say show me...then other person will say the you can not see it...but can feel it....... there are many incidents where there are no question...but only love and feelings towards Guru...... 


> .Please share with us what kind of Sikh tradition and based on what Gurmat principles the ritual of *Charan Pahul *was practiced?



I really don't know these rituals because I haven't saw that..I just heard that...and even Khalsa creation by Khanda Baata Pahul ... I haven't seen this with these eyes...I just believe it...because if questionable, a fool like me will say that prove that he is my father...then science will say that here is DNA test......a fool like me will reply that I don't believe in DNA test.....ok that's not really a  supportive answer..another way to explain it is......let suppose one will say to his father that prove that you are a son of my Grandfather, who died many years ago......... son can only believe what ever is said...Love Guru and you will find all the answers...you have to believe ....as per my opinion, which may be wrong, .........Guru ji would not have written that I gave charan pahul like this to so many people...... Its own belief.....

someday a very close relative of mine asked me to prove that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is original..have u saw Guru ji writing it....reciting baani .........now what a fool and ignorant person like me will answer to this question...........in Guru Ghar ...there is no place for questions......Tark Vitark......but love and belief......I say that just believe and love Guru...he will give you all the  answers which are coming again and again in mind........

have you ever thought of how Guru Nanak Ji traveled so long to Sri Lanka...to Bagdaad...howz that possible...an ignorant person like me will say that ..that not possible...I don't believe.........where is the prof in SGGS where it specified that Guru Ji  used so and so means of transport to travel........



> Why would our Gurus insert their big toe in the water and make people drink it when they did not even write their own names while writing Gurbani which is in SGGS?
> They only gave themselves mere numbers?


I learned this from Katha veechar, but what ever knowledge Guru gave me ..let me try to justify it.........

If one day I will say that I am god...many will stand and say that when you can say that you are god ...then even I am god......I will say that i can do it...many will say the same thing...now Why Guru Ji never told himself as God....? answer lies in earlier lines...

Bhagats wrote in Gurbani that 'Gur Parmeshar Eko Jaan".....
If you believe than I will say that Brahmgayni is also God....but even then Baba Budda Ji...Baba Deep Singh Ji...never said that they are God...

"Brahmgyani Ko Khoje Maheshar....Barhmgyani Aap Parmeshar" (Sukmani Sahib Ji)

Now Guru Angad Dev Ji once said that Baba Budda Ji is my roop, but is never written in Gurbani...it doesn't mean that we will not believe...because if Guru Ji started writing this..then SGGS would have been like Ramayan....with saakhis and stories... Where in Gurbani it is written that mugal said that Guru Gobind Singh is Snake and Chote Sahibjadey are Sapole (son of Snake).?....

Then Guru Ji said that we are snake...we protect the right and bite the wrong....we are a Pearl (mani) for good and poison for bad......thats why we sikhs are always said to be Bhajangi ( Snake)..you might have heard this in many Gurdwara's..when new baby born..we say in Ardaas that Guru Ji Blessed this couple with Bhajangi Singh...........

its not written in SGGS..it doesn't mean that we don't believe that its true.... Tark Vitark are like  mixing milk with water...you can continue to add water in milk ..Kacchi Lassi is going to increase in quantity ...but nothing comes out of that.............



> What would the water become by inserting one's toe and make people drink it


You answer lies in my question...What a water becomes by reciting 5 baanis, in presence of Guru Ji and Panj Pyare...with Khanda and Patashe in Khanda Baata...with all five have hands and eyes in water.......?

Initiation in Sikhi... an American girl did Amrit chak in 2008 with me in presence of Guru Ji...and changed her name to Mehar Kaur.......for everybody there is only one way...Amrit Chak...Khande Baatey Di Pahul... either somebody from other religion has to assume Sikhi aur even a person born in Sikh family has to get Sikhi....this is a admission to class..it does not gurantee that you will pass..but it gurantee that if you follow somerules...you will pass...but how can one pass without taking admission in class.?...



> If this initiation was the only way to become Sikhs, then how about those who did not take it?



Answer to your question is supported by earlier lines and by this...

“Rehat Bina Neh Sikh Kahavey…Rehat Bina Dar Chottan Khawey” , “Rehni Rahey Soyi Sikh Mera…O Sahib ..Main Uska Chera”………..and what is first step of Rehat… “Pratham Rehat Eh Jaan ..Khande Ki Pahul Chake”. in turn, which I understood, it means that....Without Amrit Chak..a person is not a Sikh……..



> Was there anything tangible, like a janeiu kind of necklace, a bracelet etc etc given to those who were initiated like that as a proof that they had taken *Charan Pahul* and hence had become Sikhs?



There is nothing like that...its just own conscious that ...have I took charan pahul or not...its same way ...like own conscious tells us whether we are doing anything right or wrong.....if we are doing something wrong...my conscious will tell me once, second time..third time..but if I continue to do it...my conscious will get weak and will stop saying anything...because I always pressed it...without listening to it and without giving it food of Baani...Guru Tek (support).... (this is not related to your question but related to how to keep our conscious live..just added what I learned with grace of Guru Ji)


> Does this initiation contradict or compliment the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir Sahib?



There is no contradiction, because we can not say that we follow Guru Nanak and not Guru Gobind Singh Ji.... That was done by Guru Ji earlier...but whole concept of Sikhism is a stream...it took 10 Deh (bodily) roop Guru Nanak Ji to establish whole Sikhism...and at end gave us the way to do it by Panj Payre...I will not deny boarding Aeroplane and say that no age old people used to walk so I will also walk to US from India....Sikhism is a stream/ river...and it takes way ..path for a river to get complete by merging into ocean....Started from somewhere ...and ended at somewhere..without loosing identity on the way........Guru Gobind Singh Ji and SGGS is Guru Nanak Ji itself...and when he later on gave us Panj Payra system to follow for Amrit Chak..then why I will continue to do it in old way..that should not be continued..only Guru Gobind Singh Ji's..Panj Pyara System is only way to get Khanda Baata Pahul.....

God created us and said that ..my loving son...i will make growth in you and you have to follow accordingly...and if a fool and Idiot like me will say that no...i want to wear some old clothes which I used to wear when I was new born...then you can imagine what you and other will say....

Above writings are a mix of thinking, knowledge gained through listening to Gurbani, and Katha Veechar....

I know that I may be wrong at many places, because other that Guru ...no body is perfect... and comments are welcome.and please guide me wherever I am wrong..I am interested in learning more and more of Guru Ji's teachings...

Please forgive me for any mistakes...

Sangat Bakshanhaar hai...Daas Bhulanhaar hai............

ek nimana daas samajh ke baksh dena.........ehi koshish hai ki thuvade saareyan naal reh ke kuch sikh saqaan.......

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.........


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

Sikh becomes a sikh after he/she gets Gurmantra. In guru period there was a procedure of charan amrit and that was substituted by Khande bate da amrit by Guru Gobind singh ji.

Bhai Gurdas ji writesਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ । 
charan dhoi raharaasi kari charanaamritu sikhaan peelaaiaa|
He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.

Vaar 1 pauri 23


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Sikh becomes a sikh after he/she gets Gurmantra. In guru period there was a procedure of charan amrit and that was substituted by Khande bate da amrit by Guru Gobind singh ji.
> 
> Bhai Gurdas ji writesਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ ।
> charan dhoi raharaasi kari charanaamritu sikhaan peelaaiaa|
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa ..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Thanks for support..


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Sikh becomes a sikh after he/she gets Gurmantra. In guru period there was a procedure of charan amrit and that was substituted by Khande bate da amrit by Guru Gobind singh ji.
> 
> Bhai Gurdas ji writesਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ ।
> charan dhoi raharaasi kari charanaamritu sikhaan peelaaiaa|
> ...



Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let's talk about the facts. Bhai Gurdas was a great poet. Nothing else. If his poetry were at the level of the Bhagats and others who had their writings added to SGGS, then our Gurus would have done so. The fact remains that they did not. So let's try to respect our Gurus' decision rather than undermining it which is again dispespect towards them.

Charan pahul is degrading and anti Gurmat, unless you have the evidence unlike the one you tried to peddle for Dasam Granth.

So what you wrote above does not make Gurmat sense as many of your other assertions which is not surprising.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 31, 2009)

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ । 
sunee pukaari daataar prabhu guru naanak jag maahi patdaaiaa|
The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.


* ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ । 
charan dhoi raharaasi kari charanaamritu sikhaan peelaaiaa|
He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.*


ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ । 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu kalijugi andari iku dikhaaiaa|
He preached in this darkage (kaliyug) that, saragun (Brahm) and nirgun (Parbrahm) are the same and identical.


 ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ । 
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).


ਰਾਣਾ ਰੰਕੁ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਵਣਾ ਜਗਿ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ । 
raanaa ranku baraabaree pairee paavanaa jagi varataaiaa|
Equating the poor with the prince, he spread the etiquette of humbly touching the feet.


ਉਲਟਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਿਰੰਮ ਦਾ ਪੈਰਾ ਉਪਰਿ ਸੀਸੁ ਨਿਵਾਇਆ । 
ulataa khaylu piranm daa pairaa upari seesu nivaaiaa|
Inverse is the game of the beloved; he got the egotist high heads bowed to feet.


ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਬਾਬੇ ਤਾਰਿਆ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । 
kalijugu baabay taariaa satinaamu parhhi mantr sunaaiaa|
Baba Nanak rescued this dark age (kaliyug) and recited ‘satinam’ mantr for one and all.


ਕਲਿ ਤਾਰਣਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਇਆ ॥੨੩॥ 
kali taarani guru naanaku aaiaa ॥23॥
Guru Nanak came to redeem the kaliyug.

Khalsa ji

Here is the entire pauree. What is there in this pauree that makes one think that "drink the ambrosia of his feet" means the water in which the Guru washed his feet? And in reading the entire pauree, could there not be a larger and more spiritual lesson that goes beyond the literal sense of water for washing feet, and water for amrit?

Does that sound like Guru Nanak? Would he do that?


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa ..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> Thanks for support from Gurbani......



Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh,

I am sorry to disappoint you but the fact remains that only Gurbani in SGGS is called GURBANI which does not include Bhai Gurdas' poetry. So let's not degrade SGGS by calling his poetry Gurbani.

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Adskhalsa ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> 
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

Sorry I don't know about that..i edited the post............

Waheguru maaf kare...........


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

The fact remains that Bhai gurdas ji's bani is accepted by khalsa panth to be read per sikh rehat maryada.

Message of Guru granth sahib relates to soul. Guru granth sahib will not have sikh history in it.

If some do not accept sikh rehat maryada then i have nothing to discuss further with such fellows.


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

> Here is the entire pauree. What is there in this pauree that makes one think that "drink the ambrosia of his feet" means the water in which the Guru washed his feet? And in reading the entire pauree, could there not be a larger and more spiritual lesson that goes beyond the literal sense of water for washing feet, and water for Amrit



Can you elaborate your post further. What is your conclusion regarding charan pahul per this pauri?

You quote sikh history sometimes. Did you not read in that chjaran amrit. Did you not read about Gurmantra?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/amrit/


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## spnadmin (May 31, 2009)

Forgive me for being short and not lengthy because the pauree was added with questions to be moderation questions so as to focus this part of the conversation, and to further discussion of the idea of "feet" of the Guru, Not as an expression of opinion one way or the other. 

So here is another thought question. When Guru Nanak prays that the Satgur plant his feet in his heart -- does he mean that in a literal sense? If you wish I can post a shabad with this thought.


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........

I understand that ..Sikh contains everything...and Sikh is smpooran only when he follows everything...not just parts....... and Amrit is a part of that....there are many meanings of Amrit in Gurbani...and it is in one of the katha in the given links of Zshare earlier........


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

This pauri does talk about history. Read it carefully. So let us not divert it to other side.

What about sikh history that records this event as initiation for a sikh.


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## Randip Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> What type of analysis of authenticity we are seeking for the bani of our Guru.Religious scriptures are above academic analysis.
> 
> Nevertheless Dasam granth manuscripts were studied by sodhak committe in Amritsar around 1897. They gave their report finding them the bani of tenth master.



So apart from the link to the Sodak Commitee you have no actual thesis, books, with ISBN numbers that I can look at?


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> *The fact remains that Bhai gurdas ji's bani is accepted by khalsa panth to be read per sikh rehat maryada.*
> 
> Message of Guru granth sahib relates to soul. Guru granth sahib will not have sikh history in it.
> 
> If some do not accept sikh rehat maryada then i have nothing to discuss further with such fellows.



Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

1.So now for you Bhai Gurdas ji's vaarans is BANI?

2. Did our Gurus call it BANI as you claim it to be? 

Please give evidence rather than insulting our Gurus with your false assertions.

3.Why didn't our Gurus add his poetry to SGGS if it were a Bani?

4. Why a person like you who claims to be Amritdhari and yet believes and dwells in caste system like to degrade our Gurus by calling it Bani?

I am glad you used the word HERETIC  on the other day and it shows here in your attitude and in false assertions.

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa...
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

Sorry to say but yes...that's baani of Gurdas Ji...not Gurbani.....I am not answering any question...but clarifying difference between Baani and Gurbani....

Baani of Sheikh Farid ji is included in SGGS Ji, and now its Gurbani of SGGS Ji...

Baani of Bhagat Kabir ji is included in SGGS Ji, and now its Gurbani of SGGS Ji....

Baani means sayings...whatever is said..uttered from mouth (Bol).... 

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is our Guru...so whatever he said is respectful and that's his baani....

This is my thinking....and I would like Sangat to comment on this so that I should also learn....

Bhul Chuk Maaf...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa...
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....
> 
> Sorry to say but yes...that's baani of Gurdas Ji...not Gurbani.....I am not answering any question...but clarifying difference between Baani and Gurbani....
> ...



Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact is that Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry is known as Varaans, not as Bani and it is not added by our Gurus in SGGS. So it is just  poetry like any other. 



> Baani means sayings...whatever is said..uttered from mouth (Bol)....



I think you are confusing it with boli which also means regional language and bols, what is uttered from the mouth.

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (May 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Adskhalsa ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh Ji...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

By bol I mean Sayings....not Boli...boli means punjabi..marathi, bengali, Dialects...here I mean whatever is said ...boli is different and bol is different...like many times we say that 

Isde Bol cahngey nahi...in sanskrit they say ...Iski vaani acchi nahi...

means that his never say good words.......here we doesn't mean language ..but words....

Kabir Amrti Vaani......

"Baani Guru ..Guru Hai Baani'...here Guru Ji referred to Gurbani.......like many times Guru Ji said Raam...but he referred to Raam ..Allah..Waheguru ...Nirankar...not Raam Devta......and many times Guru Ji directly referred to Raam Devta.........

"Raam ..Rahim..Puran ..Kuran...Anek Kaheyn Mat Ek Na Manyo......." here Guru Ji referred to Raam Devta....not Raam nirankar...Waheguru............

I may be wrong...and a amateur learner......if I am wrong...please guide me and forgive me........

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

Tejwant ji

That is a slip on my part. I should have called it as vaaran. But the fact is that these are accepted by khalsa panth to be sung in kirtan from Gurdwaras.

Why do you disown these writings?


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## GillAUS (May 31, 2009)

Bhai Gurdas's writings have long been considered to be the 'keys' to understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They have been accorded a special place in Sikh religious literature.

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :VaarPauri:SearchGurbani.com

Obviously we know they are not Gurbani as they have not been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but to disown them on this ground would be dangerously over-zealous.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 31, 2009)

JAISSEE MEH AWEH *KHASAM KI BANI.*..TESSRRRA KAREEN *GYAN *VE LALO..IS
the testimony of Guru nanak ji Sahib and recorded in SGGS.
Khasam is AKAL PURAKH.
Akla Purakh's BANI "Came" to GURU NANAK JI SAHIB...( and there is No bol/mouth/tongue/etc involved HERE and Akal Puarkh si NOT SPEAKING..or talking..boli..or bols..or sayings whatever...)......and as this Khasam ki Bani ARRIVED..it BROUGHT FORTH GYAAN..Enlightenment..LIGHT of KNOWLEDGE..BRAHM GYAAN....which is Now RECORDED in SGGS for US to get enlightened.
GURU NANAK JI SAHIB received this KHASAM KI BANI....and so did the Succeeding GURUS...that is the REASON FOR THE *NANAK CHHAAP* !! nanak MOHR in their GURBANI recorded in SGGS.
NO NANAK CHHAAP..NO NANAK SIGNATURE.....automatically NOT GURBANI...NOT Khaksam Ki bani....

2. GURU NANAK JI SAHIB HIMSELF...selected various other Banis..from Bhagats  Faroid Ji...and INCLUDED that as suitable. Guru Arjun Ji sahib also selected further Banis...of Sunder Ji, Bhatts, and Rabibis satt balwand ji for INCLUSION in SGGS.

3. GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..also SELECTED Gurbani written by Guur teg bahdur Ji UNDER the NANAK CHHAAP (MOHR) and included it in the SGGS that He recompiled and rewrote in entirety at Damdam Sahib Sabo Ki talwandi. Eminent Singhs like Baba DEEP SINGH SHAHEED made COPIES of this Damdami bir of SGGS and sent FOUR Copies to The Takhats. THIS COPY of the Damdmai bir was SOLELY and ONLY SGGS ALONE. NOTHING ELSE WAS ATTACHED OR BOUND TOGETHER WITH IT.

*4. Guru Gobind Singh Ji Followed the NANAK TRADITION and ONLY included GURBANI that had the NANAK CHHAAP....in SGGS.

5. Bani GURU...GURU hai BANI...Khasam KI Bani...  THE GURU is NANAK. PERIOD.The Bani that is GURU..also has the NANAK CHHAAP- MOHR. PERIOD.

6. Guru Gobind Singh ji is our Tenth Nanak..and He is father of the Khalsa..and He is the one who gave Gurgadee to SGGS...and BOWED to SGGS...ALONE and not attached to any other pothi/granth/natak granth etc.

7. LATER ON...some rather clever individuals came along..and second guessed the GURU...and began to ATTACH...other granths/pothis to the SGGS (PIGGY BACK/Back to back attachments).
A Dr. Gurinder Singh mann of UK has done his Masters research on these PIGGY BACK GRANTHS !!! Recently one such DOUBLE back to back Granth came to the fore. It was exposed by Rozana Spokesman Online......... The Special committee set up to Investigate this copy gave its report to the Akal takhat recently. It was discovered that this COPY was arrived at by DISMANTLING  a BOUND copy of SGGS separating its Pannas, arranging  aTatkara of the dsm granth to be placed right after the Original tatkara of the SGGS...and then REBINDING the SGGS and dsm Garnth in ONE VOLUME. The THREE SIDES of the huge granth were then TRIMMED by a commercial CUTTER and NEW designs painted on to the new edges. Thena  New Beautiful BINDING was done. This granth is supposedly to be 100 years old, published by the Munshi Gulab lala Chand of Lahore Press and is featured in the GS Mann article below as well.
Read his reserach here:
* A historical analysis of the combined recensions of the Guru Granth Sahib and the Sri Dasam Granth | Global Sikh News
Gurinder Singh Mann (UK) at Dasam Granth Sahib Seminar, Sacramento, Ca


Note: Please dont confuse this DR. Gurinder Singh Mann with the following person. This Highly respected Dr GS Mann is in California USA and maintains his website on books on Sikhism and various topics.

Religious Studies Department - University of California, Santa Barbara[/FONT]


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

People call the banis with which they are baptized as piggy back granth. May ia sk them what bani they read in their nitnem? 

While saying this they do not take into account past sikh history. If aske drefrence they have nothing to submit.


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

People call the banis with which they are baptized as piggy back granth. May i ask them what bani they read in their nitnem? 

While saying this they do not take into account past sikh history. If asked refrence they have nothing to submit.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 31, 2009)

GillAUS said:


> Bhai Gurdas's writings have long been considered to be the 'keys' to understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They have been accorded a special place in Sikh religious literature.
> 
> Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :VaarPauri:SearchGurbani.com
> 
> Obviously we know they are not Gurbani as they have not been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but to disown them on this ground would be dangerously over-zealous.



Guru paoyario Jios,

*DISOWNING*..is  a strong word...( I am not surprised however because this is so common to Indians/punjabi culture...daily i find Newspapers FULL of advertisements like...I, So and So..DISOWN my son..my daughter..my son in law..etc etc" and I am not responsible..blah blah. IN ALL my 60 years in malaysia and reading Newspapers from  all over the WORLD..NEVER have I come across even ONE such disowning ad placed by any other person of any other country..only INDIANS DO it !! ??? why i dont know.)
Anyway I digress..sorry ji...

Just becasue anyone says that the HONORIFIC GURU-GURBANI..etc must not/cannot/should not...be applied to say Bhai Gurdass jis varraan, or Bhai Nana lala goyas swaiyahs, or others..is *NOT DISOWNING THEM*  !!! Now adays it si so common to find so many GURUS..in Beas, in Sirs, in Jalnadhar..in..in..in..in..there are so many !! BUT for ME..the One and ONLY GURU is....SGGS. PERIOD.
For me..the ONLY GURBANI is that which MY GURU has...SGGS...GURBANI...PERIOD.
I RESPECT..I READ...I HONOUR..Nanad Lal goyas F{censored}e kabits, swaiyyahs, Bhai Gurdass jis varaan  read daily.. the Nitnem banis I recite daily as the Panj Piaras ordered me to..
BUT the GURU I FOLLOW...the GURBANI that i use to DHAAL..fabricate my life..change my life..is GURBANI of my GURU...SGGS. Thats is the Original Khasam ki bani that came from Akal purakh through the House of NANAK and carries this Chhaapa Mohr STAMP of APPROVAL of NANAK. Period.


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

Sikhphilosophy has provided another link of sikh sangat for this thread

This following was quite interesting to know

Ardaas Changed In Finland Gurughar - The Voice of Sikh Youth


Did anyone realise that the addition of the names of 35 Bhagats is at the expense of 40 Mukte...yes they have removed the mentioning of 40 Mukte from the Ardas too...

Well thats what the notorious Sikh Missionary Colleges have been preaching since ages...that 40 Mukte never existed...and now this has been implemented by even more notorious missionaries (influenced by Inder Ghagga).....

What a Shame! 

Interestingly they have adopted the Dohira which was proposed by SikhRi in their controverisal syllabus and for which they have been criticised in the panthic circles. All these organisations are hand in glove...their main aim is to disintegrate the fabric of Sikhi... 

Though one part of me is totally disgusted at reading this news, the other part is happy that these people are self declared Guru Nindaks and self declared walk-outs from the panth...They can call themselves as Ghaggiyes, Kale Afghaniyes, Prof Darshaniyes, Missionariyes, Martin Lutheriyes or whatever, but they will not be called Sikhs from now on...

Gurdwara is a place where Guru's teachings are followed...The place in Finland has ceased to be called a Gurdwara...Efforts should be made to bring the Maharaj Saroop from there with full respec


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

> ONLY GURBANI is that which MY GURU has...Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...GURBANI...PERIOD



Sikhs ahd ten gurus and they were equally important for sikhs. Composition of our gurus is called GURBANI whether contained in SGGS ji or not PERIOD


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

GillAUS ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> *Bhai Gurdas's writings have long been considered to be the 'keys' to understanding Sri **Guru Granth Sahib**. They have been accorded a special place in **Sikh** religious literature.
> *




Keys are only needed when something has been locked with mulitple padlocks. That is not the case of SGGS. It is open to all, no exception. Hindu scriptures were under locks so only the highest caste could  have access to them and read them.

Yes, it is said what you have mentioned but it makes no Gurmat sense rather it is anti Gurmat to even think like that SGGS needs keys to open. We Sikhs are very good sheep and we forget that Sikhi is the journey of the individual.

Pragmatism on which Guru Nanak founded Sikhi does not allow Gurbani to be padlocked. The concept of openmindedness was strengthened by Harmandir Sahib's design of having 4 doors.

So, there is no LOCK on SGGS, hence no KEY required to open it.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

*



but they will not be called Sikhs from now on...


Click to expand...

* 
There you go again pretending to play Ik Ong Kaar. What a shame! FYI, only Ik Ong Kaar knows that and decides that. You, I or anyone else will never find that out. 

I am sorry to say that it is sheer arrogance on your part to say the least to act like that.

What a shame!

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Dassan GURUAN dee Jeondi Jagdee JYOT is SGGS.
SGGS occupies the Gurgadee of NANAK-GOBIND SINGH..and is thus GURU.
ONLY what the GURU forwards as KHASAM KI BANI is GURBANI..and thats exactly what SGGS Forwards.
NANAK CHHAAP MOHR...STAMP OF APPROVAL OF NANAK is PARAMOUNT..and ONLY SGGS has this MOHR. The MOHR STOPS at Mundawni mahalal panjavaan..and THANKSGIVING SLOK by Mahlaa panjavaan.

That is also why Guru Ji called AAD GRANTH....the GRANTH of the AAD GURU...Nanak-Gobind Singh...bestowed Gurgadee ayt naded in 1708.


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## GillAUS (Jun 1, 2009)

I don't think that by calling Bhai Gurdas's writings the key to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is literally locked and inaccessible.

They are there to aid the understanding of the philosophy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. History says that even Guru Arjan Dev ji referred to Bhai Gurdas's writings as being a 'key'. 

On another note, I don't think our Finnish compatriots will be fond of the recital of such kirtan at their Gurdwaras:

Dasam Bani Kirtan (Sada Jai Bhagauti): Bhai Balbir Singh Ji performs kirtan from the bani of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib clip on Ovi by Nokia

Sada Jai Bhagauti!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

YES...the VEDS were LOCKED..and the KEY was kept securely in the Brahmins hands (under LOCK and KEY ) Any one else..even hearing/speaking/listening....to the Vedas was punished by having MOLTEN LEAD poured into his Mouth, ears,.....

These people deviously tried to "LOCK" the SGGS..and then self provide the "Key" in Varaan they knew could be ADULTERATED and misconstrued...by their agents.. IF one has "locked" and has the KEY..one cna do anything..keep changing the "key"...keep losing it..keep finding new ones...( REMEMBER the 41st Vaar by another IMPOSTER added to this supposedly KEY !!! THAT VAAR really lets the HUGE BLACK CAT out of the Bag !!!)
BUT the GURU JI was wise..and never LOCKED the SGGS..declared it to be PIO DADDEH DA KHOL DITTAH KHAZANAH..OPEN and in PLAIN VIEW FOR all time....thus THWARTING these "key" thieves at their own game...of what use is a key to a lock that is NOT there ??


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

*For these people whole sikh literature is adulterated. Sikh history is aduleterated. They say there were no chali muktas. These people claim to follow Sikh rehat maryada but they are the ones to flout that.

Why do not they start their own sect? 
*


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## GillAUS (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> *For these people whole sikh literature is adulterated. Sikh history is aduleterated. They say there were no chali muktas. These people claim to follow Sikh rehat maryada but they are the ones to flout that.
> 
> Why do not they start their own sect?
> *



Dare I say they are the Sikh version of Wahhabists? OMG


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji are very important to elaborate on Gurbani. These also talk about sikh history.
For example visit of Guru sahib to Mecca and Baghdad is written in that. So anyone casting aspersions
on such sikh compositions is someone who has strayed from sikh path. That is what these people are doing it.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Sikhphilosophy has provided another link of sikh sangat for this thread
> 
> This following was quite interesting to know
> 
> ...



Its like the same old story...A guy went far 4 villages to buy a goat...paid money for goat...and 4 Thags made a plan to take that goat from him....one came on the way and told that are you fool...people pick goat on shoulder ...not a puppy (dog)...Guy replied no no its goat...Thag replied I think somebody fooled you and made you pay for goat in turn gave u a dog....

Guy continued to his way back home...after some time..second Thag countered him and said that..wow such a nice puppy...I think you love him very much...thats why u have piked up.....Guy got confused and said..this is goat...not dog.......Thag laughed at guy and went...

after some time third Thag countered him and said ..nice puppy...are you selling it....now this guy really started thinking.....am I fooled or not....but said no  I am not selling it..and put the puppy down and not dragging the goat....continued his journey and was thinking...if this is puppy ..then villagers will laugh at me saying that you went to buy a goat and bought a puppy ..paying money for goat..... at last fourth Thag came on the way and said that same thing , this time guy handed over the goat to Thag....... those from Finland are like that guy and somebody is fooling them...

This is what these non sikhs are doing with Sikhs....since long time world is trying to finish Sikhs...but Khalsa is Pragatya....and once anything is Pragat...remains in world...never goes back...

"Satgur Nanak Pargatya...Miti Dhund Jag Chanank Howa"....

Guru Ji is here with us...he never went back....so how come Khalsa be extinct.........never...

Well I remembered from Katha by Giani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen...that whatever is precious...its rare and found in very less quantity in world...Say precious metal...plantinum and gold....but we find Iron everywhere...iron is not as precious as Plantinum and gold...same are Sikhs...Waheguru want to keep it precious...thats why we are less...

One more thing I remembered from his katha veechar...that those who suffered a lot ...flourished a lot.... most suffered were Jews...now Jews are are the richest community in the world...and second most suffered are Sikhs....Sikhs were poor...but today Sikhs are spreading everywhere...they are at high positions...flourishing ....

well one has to remember Guru everytime.......Waheguru Bhali kare.........

Chardi Kala............


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Sikhs ahd ten gurus and they were equally important for sikhs. Composition of our gurus is called GURBANI whether contained in SGGS ji or not PERIOD



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh... Inder Singh Ji...

I would like to say something...and I am sorry ..but in Ardaas we say 10 Paatshahi...not 10 Guru's...There was, and is..only and only one Guru...that's Guru Nanak Ji...and he was there in all 9 roops and now is in Dhan Dhan....Sri..Guru Granth Sahib Ji...

Bhul chuk di maafi ji...

Waheguru Kirpa Kare.........Barkataan Bakshe....

Chardi Kala.......


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...Tejwant Singh Ji


how about our Guru saying it....

“*Rehat* Bina Neh *Sikh *Kahavey…Rehat Bina Dar Chottan Khawey” , “Rehni Rahey Soyi Sikh Mera…O Sahib ..Main Uska Chera”………..and what is first step of Rehat… 

“Pratham Rehat Eh Jaan ..Khande Ki Pahul Chake”.   

it doen't mean just have the Pahul and do nothing...SGGS Ji is along with it...one has to follow it.... those who doesn't follow SGGS Ji ...and is not a Sikh of Guru....Jagat guru....Sri Guru Nanak Ji...........

Bhul Chuk Maafi...........

Chardi Kala.......
[/FONT]


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

GillAUS ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> *They are there to aid the understanding of the philosophy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. *


 

I beg to disagree with your above assertion. SGGS needs no aid from anyone especially Bahi Gurdas ji who had a Hindu mentality. SGGS is stand alone "Toolbox". IT gives us the tools how to breed goodness within.

Guru Nanak says in Japji:

"Gaviei suniei,munn rakhiei bahao, Dukh parHar sukh ghar lei jai"


In the above pauri and in many others one can find the aid/key to understand the philosophy of SGGS.

We chant Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji loudly because it is written in the poetic and musical form. This was a great idea by our visionary Gurus. By chanting and singing Gurbani loudly, one liberates oneself from the self created cocoons, one breaks the walls one has constructed around him/her. One bursts out of the self made bubble. Once this is done then our visionary Gurus tell us to study Gurbani so that we can understand it, put it into practice so that it can become our second nature which in result will help us elevate our level of normalcy. By understanding and then putting Gurbani into practice,what seemed impossible yesterday, becomes probable today and then with HIS grace- Nadar-, it ought to become a piece of cake the next day.

One can open the Guru Granth randomly on any page and find the inspiration, motivation, determination, perseverance and, last but not least, the acceptance of _Hukam._ 

So, as you can see, SGGS needs no "Cliff notes".

Hence Guru Gobind Singh ji bestowed Guruship on SGGS. IT is our only GURU. Why would our GURU need an aid? Did other Gurus need that?

Something to ponder about.



> *History says that even Guru Arjan Dev ji referred to Bhai Gurdas's writings as being a 'key'. *


 
Yes, it is said by many but there is no proof because the fact remains SGGS is complete and stand alone. The reason for this belief in my opinion is because Punjabi culture in ingrained with finding "facts" through second hand information. It is due to the heirarchial culture. Whatever our own elders or other elders say, we believe in it blindly. Guru Nanak eliminated the heirarchy starting with our second Guru Angad rather than his own son. The same concept continued and we had Guru Harkrishan as our 8th Guru. Elders can be wrong and are wrong many a times. There is nothing wrong with that.

 What it teaches us as Sikhs is to seek for the first hand information on our own through SGGS, our only stand alone aidless GURU.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 1, 2009)

For those who believe in Kathas/Suraj Parkash or other stories of Gurus;

Suraj Parkash, Vol 1

Anecdote; One

Sakhi # 154. Guru Ji Di Seva, Page, 543

Abstract from Page 546; 

ਸਭਤੋਂਹੋਰਔਖੀਸੇਵਾਸੀ੍ਗੁਰੂਔਗਦਦੇਵਜੀਦੇਔਨਗੂਠੇਨੂੰਮੂੰਹਵਿਚਰਖਕੇਬੈਠਣਾ॥ ਸੀ੍ਗੁਰੂਔਗਦਦੇਵਜੀਦੇਚਰਨਦੇਔਗੂਠੇਉਤੇਜ਼ਖਮਸੀ॥ ਜਿੰਨਾਚਿਰਗੁਰੂਅਮਰਦਾਸਜੀਮੂੰਹਵਿਚਪਾਕੇਨਾਬੈਠਦੇਉਹਨਾਚਿਰਗੁਰੂਔਗਦਦੇਵਜੀਨੂੰਨੀਂਦਨਾਆਉਂਦੀ॥ ਇਸਤਰ੍ਹਾਂਸੇਵਾਕਰਦਿਆਂਹੋਇਆਂਸੇਵਾਚਾਰਸਾਲਬੀਤਗਏ॥
_Sabh Toan Hoar Aoukhee Seva Siri Guru Angad Dev Ji They Angoothay Noon Moonh Vich Rakh Kay Baithnaa ] Siri Guru Angad Dev Ji De Charan De Angoothay Outay Zakham See] Jina Chir Guru Amardas Ji Moonh Vich Pa-kay Na Baithday Ohna Chir Guru Angad Dev Ji Noon Neend Na Aoundi] Iss Tarnha Seva Kardian Hoeyaa Seva Chaar Saal Beet Gaey._

Guru Angad had an ulcer on the big toe of his foot (Probably Gout/Diabetic ulcer).
Which was very painful? The only way he could sleep was if Amardas (later Guru Amardas) kept the toe in his mouth. It carried on for 4 years. This is in reference to the selfless service of Guru Amardas towards Guru Angad Dev.
------Ref, Suraj Parkash, translated as Nanak Parkash (Nirankari Darshan) by Giani Gian Singh, Page, 546
IMHO such a story can create doubts and duality.

Cordially,
Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...Tejwant Singh Ji
> 
> 
> how about our Guru saying it....
> ...


 
Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you but please define REHAT for me in lay man's terms with the help of SGGS.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..

Thanks to Gyani Ji for clearing doubt about Baani and Gurbani....

Out of curiosity I would like to ask a silly question...Even Baani of Bhagats, Bhat, ...I mean all Baani included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is..dhur ki Baani/ Khasam Ki baani ..or only Guru Nanak Ji's (Stamped) Baani is Khasam Ki Baani...?

Bhul Chuk di Maafi...

Chardi Kala......


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Adskhalsa ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.... Tejwant Singh Ji...

I am sorry...but I am just saying about what is the first step to become a Sikh...I only know this...still trying to gain knowledge of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...Guru de mehar hovegi taan jaroor koshish karaanga ki is da jawab vi de saqaan.....

eh shabad di panktiyaan saanjhi kitti ae..

RENHI_RAHE_SOYI_SIKH_MERA-_KATHA_SAHIT-WWW.SHAYRIWORLD.COM

if we go by Rehat Maryada of SGPC..its available online at SGPC.net

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

Bhul Chuk Maaf....

Chardi Kala............


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

GillAUS said:


> Dare I say they are the Sikh version of Wahhabists? OMG


 
GillAUS ji,

Guru Fateh.

I take umbrage at your above statement. I have no idea if you know that Wahhabists were the ones who attacked on 9-11 and killed 3000 people from different countires including my class mate from the UK.

So for you to compare those who disagree with you about Sikhi to the Wahhabists shows more about your parochial and myopic thought process than anything else. Sikhi is about cultivating openmindedness where disagreements ought to occur. Let's not abuse that privilege given to us by our Gurus through SGGS.

I have no problem if you agree with Inder Singh who is famous in many forums to be abusive,arrogant and believing in his Jatt caste and living by it whereas at the same time he claims to be Amritdhari. He calls others who do not agree with him heretics when I have shown the same about him in his own posts.

So let us stick to the topics in hands so all can learn from all participants. When one throws mud at others, one has to dirty one's own hands first. There is no other way of doing it.

So, I hope to have a civilised interaction with you regarding Sikhi where disagreements may occur.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.... Tejwant Singh Ji...
> 
> I am sorry...but I am just saying about what is the first step to become a Sikh...I only know this...still trying to gain knowledge of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...Guru de mehar hovegi taan jaroor koshish karaanga ki is da jawab vi de saqaan.....
> 
> ...


 
AdsKhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

You quoted about the word Rehat  in your post and based your argument on it. So, I asked you a simple question, define Rehat that you base your argument on. Nothing more.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Sikhs ahd ten gurus and they were equally important for sikhs. Composition of our gurus is called GURBANI whether contained in SGGS ji or not PERIOD


 
Says WHO? As asked before many times, please provide solid proof for your assertions. One can not go with your feelings.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> *For these people whole sikh literature is adulterated. Sikh history is aduleterated. They say there were no chali muktas. These people claim to follow Sikh rehat maryada but they are the ones to flout that.*
> 
> *Why do not they start their own sect? *


 

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

There you go  spewing your anger at those who disagree with you and flaunting your arrogance pretending to play Ik Ong Kaar, again and again.

What a shame that a person who calls him Amritdhari would have so much anger and hatred built up within!

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 1, 2009)

Tejwant ji

I had myself some confusion about the use of the term Wahadists. Exactly who would be referenced with that term? This is essentially an extremist group within Islam -- as we all know -- that promotes cultural goals in the name of a particular interpretation of the Quran and Sharia. So we do need clarification.  aad0002


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> I agree with you but please define REHAT for me in lay man's terms with the help of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



Message of Guru granth sahib ji is to spirit. Those who think that it will tell us about rehat are fooling around.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> There you go spewing your anger at those who disagree with you and flaunting your arrogance pretending to play Ik Ong Kaar, again and again.
> 
> What a shame that a person who calls him Amritdhari would have so much anger and hatred built up within!



There is nothing wrong that i wrote. For you the whole sikh history is suspect. You do not follow sikh rehat maryada. 

Truth is bitter. have the capacity to chew what i wrote.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

aad0002

I am waiting for clarification from you about misinterpreting Bhai gurdas ji di vaar.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Message of Guru granth sahib ji is to spirit. Those who think that it will tell us about rehat are fooling around.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all, my question was directed to AdsKhalsa who had used REHAT in his argument. I asked him a simple question to define the word.

Now rather than defining it, you are running away from it by accusing others.

What Gurmat values do you base your above accusation on? 

Please give refrences from SGGS.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> I had myself some confusion about the use of the term Wahadists. Exactly who would be referenced with that term? This is essentially an extremist group within Islam -- as we all know -- that promotes cultural goals in the name of a particular interpretation of the Quran and Sharia. So we do need clarification. aad0002


 

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

I totally agree with you. It shows an abusive nature of a person who accuses other Sikhs  who disagree with him/her as Wahabbists. Wahabbism is the cornerstone of all what Alqueda and the Taliban have been doing all around the world.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> Says WHO? As asked before many times, please provide solid proof for your assertions. One can not go with your feelings.



Says khalsa panth. Read Sikh rehat maryada.

Now you give us a reference to prove it otherwise.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> Says WHO? As asked before many times, please provide solid proof for your assertions. One can not go with your feelings.



Says sikh rehat maryada. Give us reference to prove it otherwise.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> There is nothing wrong that i wrote. For you the whole sikh history is suspect. You do not follow sikh rehat maryada.
> 
> Truth is bitter. have the capacity to chew what i wrote.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

So you are still not able to define and help AdsKhalsa what REHAT means  according to SGGS. Thanks for admitting that.

Once again your arrogance will not let you give up pretending to play Ik Ong Kaar. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows the answer about who follows Rehat Maryada. You will never find that out. 

Nice try though.

You have shown nothing but your anger and hatred and I, myself  by nature do not fancy  chewing anyone's anger and hatred laced with sheer arrogance.

Thanks for the offer though.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> So you are still not able to define and help AdsKhalsa what REHAT means  according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



I also wrote that Guru Granth sahib will not tell you about rehat as its message is to soul. You need to know that before asking useless questions time and again.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> Says WHO? As asked before many times, please provide solid proof for your assertions. One can not go with your feelings.
> Says khalsa panth. Read Sikh rehat maryada.​


​ 
Inder Singh ji,
Guru fateh.​ 
You are getting funnier and hillarious when you are angry like that. The burden lies on you. Give references from SGGS by defining REHAT first.
And please stay calm. I am worried about your high BP.
Regards​ 
Tejwant Singh​


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> I also wrote that Guru Granth sahib will not tell you about rehat as its message is to soul. You need to know that before asking useless questions time and again.


 

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

So in other words you do not know. Thanks for admitiing it. It always happens with you when asked for references and definitions, you become mum all of a sudden which is expected.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Tejwant ji

Please do not worry about my blood pressure. Instead let us focuss on the subject.

Message of SGGS ji is to soul.It does not talk about rehat. Rehat is amde by khalsa panth.
If you do not agree with sikh rehat maryada then there is hardly anything to discuss between us.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> So in other words you do not know. Thanks for admitiing it. It always happens with you when asked for references and definitions, you become mum all of a sudden which is expected.



You are named singh after your first name like other sikhs. Is it written in Sri Granth sahib also?Please give reference.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

maff karyo..ek silly question poochan lagya haan.... I tired on google but not able to find it...

what is meant by, or who are Wahabbists ?

I know i look stupid asking it where everybody knows...but I think I should know this .........

"Kirpa Karo Deen Ke Daatey"

Chardi Kala..

Amandeep Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

aadkhalsa ji

Please see this link

Wahhabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh... Tejwant Singh Ji...

Start following SGGS Ji...and you will come to know what is Rehat...Even Panj pyare tells us about 4 bajr kurehat.... its doesn't mean that we have to take care of only those...then there would not be SGGS Ji...then Guru Ji might have gave us only these 4 instructions....

Questioning mind is good...but not everytime and everywhere...Just follow each shabd of SGGS Ji..you will come to know Rehat...it has to be followed with every breath....now I feel that even making fun of anybody ..is also against Guru Ji's teachings. its a Rehat for me...may be not written in SGPC's rehat maryada...but yes Guru Ji taught us this...I have to follow this...no questions........this is what I learned and may be wrong....because this is my perception, and urs may be somthing else.......

I would like to say one thing...just open up your mind...then discuss...because its hard to fill something when container is closed...we have to open the lid  and moreover...if we want to fill something in already filled container...then second act we have to do after opening it is ...empty it...it mean Neevan ban_na...if container is upside down..its high..but nothing can be filled in it...same thing our Guru conveyed...my Sikh...you should be like empty vessel..but it should be kept in proper way...not upside down...then i will not be able to fill it......

humble request...please discuss with open mind..we are Sikhs....learner...

Chardi Kala......


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> aadkhalsa ji
> 
> Please see this link
> 
> Wahhabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...Inder singh ji...

Thuvada bahut bahut dhanwaad ....

Chardi Kala........


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> I also wrote that Guru Granth sahib will not tell you about rehat as its message is to soul. You need to know that before asking useless questions time and again.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your above statement shows how you dwell in falsehoods and lies. You have repeatedly said :

*



Guru Granth sahib will not tell you about rehat as its message is to soul.

Click to expand...

* 
I am sorry to say that your above assertion like many others is a blatant lie. I asked you several times to  define REHAT according to SGGS, rather than doing that you become abusive and accusive.

You are WRONG once again. SGGS does mention and define REHAT.

For a starter read Panna numbers 1140, 1217 and 1354 and then define Rehat in based on them.

As I mentioned before, you used the right word heretic and it shows in your posts.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> For a starter read Panna numbers 1140, 1217 and 1354 and then define Rehat in based on them.



Give the particular shabads here.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh... Tejwant Singh Ji...
> 
> Start following SGGS Ji...and you will come to know what is Rehat...Even Panj pyare tells us about 4 bajr kurehat.... its doesn't mean that we have to take care of only those...then there would not be SGGS Ji...then Guru Ji might have gave us only these 4 instructions....
> 
> ...


 
Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your above post is confusing to say the least. I asked you to define a word that you wrote in your post to prove your point. One wonders why you have failed to  so. 

It is easy to lecture others and judge others. Sikhi is not based on judging others. You do not know me, you have no idea about myself.

Here is a suggestion. I have been the member of this great forum since its inception in June 2004 and have written quite a few things on many topics. Please search them and go through them then you will find and relish my openmindedness on which Sikhi is based.

Happy reading.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> For a starter read Panna numbers 1140, 1217 and 1354 and then define Rehat in based on them.
> Give the particular shabads here.


Inder Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
Sorry to disppoint you, I do not do spoon feeding. I have given you the Panna numbers to show you how you lie blatantly yet claim to be an Amritdhari Sikh.
On the other side you have NEVER gien any references about anything asked from you. Your posts are the proof.
So make some efforts. It makes one a good Sikh.
Tejwant Singh





​


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Adskhalsa ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

I just wonder...when you know where Rehat maryada ki given in SGGS Ji...why you were making issue of that...you could have better told us...well if that only rehat maryada..then why Guru Ji need 1430 Ang to complete it...well I don't know and I don't even question that...but when in Jap Ji Sahib its said ... "Jatt Pahara Dheeraj Suniyaar" ..I know i have to follow that and practice in life...so even that is rehat for me... this is just an example...

well I am new to this forum and you are such a great scholar...I am new to learning of Sikhi...because I was Idiot not to thought of seeking Guru ealier... and even now I am dumb...just trying to learn....

You said it ..I believed it.. I need not have to go and search for your threads... I am at the last in line in this world in seeking Waheguru...and I expect and welcome such comments on me....

Waheguru Bhali Karey...

Chardi Kala.......


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> Sorry to disppoint you, I do not do spoon feeding. I have given you the Panna numbers to show you how you lie blatantly yet claim to be an Amritdhari Sikh.
> On the other side you have NEVER gien any references about anything asked from you. Your posts are the proof.
> So make some efforts. It makes one a good Sikh.



Give us the shabad that talks about sikh rehat maryada we were talking about? Do not beat about the bush as usual.


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## GillAUS (Jun 1, 2009)

GurFateh,

I apologise to any of you whom I have caused to feel upset by my statement regarding 'wahabbists'.

I can assure you that I did not mean to equate anybody here with terrorism/terrorists.

By 'wahabbist', I was drawing a comparison to the EXTREMELY over-zealous attitude that the initial founder/s of this doctrine had in regards to purging or 'purifying' their respective religion from perceived 'impurities' and 'corruptions'.

I was in no way referring to the awful terrorist attacks that the modern day practitioners of this doctrine engage in.

Moreover, I was not taking any jibes at anybody here at this forum - I was merely referring to the broader spectrum of those people in the Sikh community that have this similar attitude towards our religion, i.e. Inder Ghagga, Kala Afghana types.

My apologies once again if I have offended.

Peace.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Give us the shabad that talks about sikh rehat maryada we were talking about? Do not beat about the bush as usual.


 
Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are not only angry but now also confused. Read my posts. I asked you about the definition of REHAT from SGGS and you blatantly lied that there is NONE ( read your own posts and you will see that).

I never used the word Rehat Maryada. The discussion between myself and AdsKhalsa was about REHAT not about Rehat Maryada. You need to read the posts before you jump to conclusions and start lying about SGGS. Who is a heretic now?

Happy reading.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> well I am new to this forum and you are such a great scholar



He is a great scholar in dodging issues. If you come to know about his knowledge about SGGS ji you wil be pleaseantly surprised how he interprets the message. For example there is no soul, reincanation, no karma in sikhism etc. he is here to chase away people.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> I never used the word Rehat Maryada. The discussion between myself and AdsKhalsa was about REHAT not about Rehat Maryada. You need to read the posts before you jump to conclusions and start lying about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Who is a heretic now?



You are a conman also. How you distort the subject. Our refrence was always to Sikh rehat maryada or temporal aspect of sikh living.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

*This was my previous message from where the subject of sikh rehat came in the discussion.How people distort the discussion, it is amazing to note.

Quote

The fact remains that Bhai gurdas ji's bani is accepted by khalsa panth to be read per Sikh rehat maryada.*

Message of Guru Granth Sahib relates to soul. Guru Granth Sahib will not have Sikh history in it.

If some do not accept Sikh rehat maryada then i have nothing to discuss further with such fellows.

Unquote


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Tejwant Singh ji...

I was always saying that following Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is rehat....I just blindly know that....and as I said I am dumb in Sikhi, I just know to follow SGGS Ji....

We would not have so much katha veecharak ..if everybody wants other to do of it own...the matter should be discussed ...not dragged...

Sorry if i hurted any body....

Chardi Kala...........


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> Moreover, I was not taking any jibes at anybody here at this forum - I was merely referring to the broader spectrum of those people in the Sikh community that have this similar attitude towards our religion, i.e. Inder Ghagga, Kala Afghana types.



You are right. People like Inder Ghagha do not spare SGGS ji also. They say that it should not be in prakash. It should be folded and kept in a cupboard. They are taking the whole element of respect out
of sikhism. They do not respect the lives of our Gurus. They say naam japna is gorakh dhandha.Waheguru is not Gurmantra etc.It is atheism at best.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have disappointed me with your blatant lies, false accusations and ducking when asked for references. It shows that you claim to know a lot but you have no way to prove it. To the contrary.

Read the below post by AdsKhalsa ji and read what I asked him about it. And stop being angry. It is ok to admit when you are at fault and lie. 



> how about our Guru saying it....
> 
> “*Rehat* Bina Neh *Sikh *Kahavey…Rehat Bina Dar Chottan Khawey” , “Rehni Rahey Soyi Sikh Mera…O Sahib ..Main Uska Chera”………..and what is first step of Rehat… [/FONT]
> 
> ...


 
Inder ji,

TRUTH is the only gateway to freedom. You are right. People who lie are con men and last but not the least, I am just a Seeker, a Learner, a Sikh, NOT a Scholar, unlike you.

Regards and Seek the truth that is what Sikhi is based on.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Tejwant ji

Do not try to wiggle out by distorting the issue. When we say sikh rehat we mean sikh rehat maryada where a sikh has baptism of tenth master. That is what aadkhalsa is saying. 

Here is my question

Are you a baptized sikh? If so what banis you read in nitnem?

Do you follow sikh rehat maryada?


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Here are the videos of a debate some singhs had with inder Ghagha. sangat will realize what motives these people have

http://www.panthic.org/news/123/ARTI...006-10-11.html


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## GillAUS (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> You are right. People like Inder Ghagha do not spare SGGS ji also. They say that it should not be in prakash. It should be folded and kept in a cupboard. They are taking the whole element of respect out
> of sikhism. They do not respect the lives of our Gurus. They say naam japna is gorakh dhandha.Waheguru is not Gurmantra etc.It is atheism at best.



You are right - in some way, when you look at it, it does seem that these people are trying to impose their sceptic/athiest views onto Sikhi by creating their own version of it to suit that viewpoint.

What's even funnier is that they claim to be so scholarly, but their views (especially those concerning Sri Dasam Granth) totally contradict the TRUE (and universally respected) Sikh scholars from over the last century which mostly agreed that Sri Dasam Granth was/is Gurbani.


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

> What's even funnier is that they claim to be so scholarly, but their views (especially those concerning Sri Dasam Granth) totally contradict the TRUE (and universally respected) Sikh scholars from over the last century which mostly agreed that Sri Dasam Granth was/is Gurbani.



Dasam granth is very important scripture for sikhs as an organized religion. They want to create confusion
among young generation by sheer propaganda against it. They have an agenda and they are following it.
​


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> Do not try to wiggle out by distorting the issue. When we say sikh rehat we mean sikh rehat maryada where a sikh has baptism of tenth master. That is what aadkhalsa is saying.
> 
> ...


 

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Suffice to say that you love to distort and lie. When caught you get abusive. You lied about SGGS. What a shame.

When you learn to  follow the thread in a correct manner, then only we can have a further discussion. In the meantime read and enjoy the panna numbers I gave you from SGGS regarding Rehat which you had no idea existed in it and denied the existence.

Lastly, SGGS is our only Guru. Denying that it says anything about Rehat is not a Sikhi way.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: I have given references to all you have asked, yet you have failed to give any even when asked repeatedly, which shows a kind of person you are.


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## GillAUS (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Dasam granth is very important scripture for sikhs as an organized religion. They want to create confusion
> among young generation by sheer propaganda against it. They have an agenda and they are following it.



Inder Singh ji,

Somehow, I think although they will try very hard to propogate their beliefs, we all know that ultimately the truth prevails.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Sorry for going off topic... 

This Jo Bole So Nihaal movie impacted our Jai Kara very badly.... our Jai Kara is "Bole So Nihaal...Sat Sri Akaal"...I don't know how come we added Jo to it and make it conditional....

From Nitem..I remember from katha veechar of Bhai Amreek Singh Ji....somebody dumb like me saying I do nitnem of Sukhmani Sahib once every week....O Guru's Sikh....its a Haftawaari...not Nitnem.... sorry out of topic....just remembered .......

Again a silly and stupid question... many times I saw Sangat writing *IMHO*... well I think its abbreviation...but I am not a Chatting personality...so could not able to guess it...

Please...anybody from Sangat...will tell me what does it mean..


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Aadkhalsa ji

I think it is i may however observe.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

its .................             * I*n  *M*y  *H*umble* O*pinion .............

Chardeekalla Jios...:whisling::whisling:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..
> 
> Thanks to Gyani Ji for clearing doubt about Baani and Gurbani....
> 
> ...




Guru Piayario Jio,
Gurfateh.

Why the "doubt..duality" ?

GURU NANAK JI SAHIB CHOSE that Bani to be INCLUDED as EQUAL among His Bani.
SO its Guru nanak jis CHOICE and perfectly acceptable to His SIKHS.
Guru Arjun Ji also continued this and INCLUDED that bani as well as Bhatt Swiayhs, Bards satta Balwands bani, and sunder jis sadd. Finally GURU GOBIND SINGH JI alos continued the SAME while adding Guru teg bahadur Jis Bani.
THUS we have PROOF that this Bani was CHOSEN and given Place of HONOUR by THREE GURU SAHIBS. This is also the Most Solid Proof that ALL TEN GURUS were indeed ONE JYOT..that of GURU NANAK JI...who brought all Gurbani from OUR KHASAM..Akal Purakh...and this CHOICE was AFFIRMED three times by three different Gurus  over a long period of nearly 100 Years ++ .

Just like some self serving sikhs with an AGENDA are second guessing the GURU GOBIND SINGH JIS DECISION to appoint ONLY ONE GRANTH..SGGS as the SOLE GURU after Him... soem such sikhs also decided to second guess the GURU Nanak Ji sahib, Guur Arjun Ji sahiba nd Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib.... JIs ...and REMOVE Bhagat bani, Bhatt swaiyahs, Sunder Jis Sadd and Satta balwands banis from the SGGS and produce a so called "PURE Version" of sggs. Luckily the GURU KHALSA PANTH at that time was STRONGER, More UNITED and RESOURCEFUL to NIP this in the BUD. The person doing this Gross SIN was later thrown out by the panth as he refused to apologise. Now the Panth after the continuing attacks and infiltrations of the past 60 years through INTERNAL AGENTS of the RSS and the Indian Govts attacks for 10 years on the Sikhs..feel strong enough to put forward ther nefarious evil designs once again..and hope thye can succeed this time..BUT they DONT KNOW the POWER of the Guru Khalsa Panth.  How silly these people are..they quote the Chibbar bansawalinama about the Chhota Granth and etc and GURU GOBIND SINGH JI SPECIFICALLY SAYS *( according to their own articles quoted) that this "chhotta Granth" is to be KEPT SEPARATE..etc etc and NOT COMBINED with the SGGS..the One adn only AAD GRANTH....yet it si said that BHAI Mani Singh went ahead and RECOMBINED the Two Granths into one volume ??? Can Bahi mani Singh really DISREGARD the Guru like that ??and so did a few others who bound the two granths into ONE JILD...JHOOTH de Paer nahin hundeh..SACH kadeh PURANNA nahin Hundah... The SGGS has survived the most TUMULTOUS PERIOD of Sikh hsitory when Sikh heads were sold for RS 80...and it survived because it is KHASAM KI BANI..our GURU...The GURU can take care of Himslef..and will survive these attacks...Panth Ki Jeet always...


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Some silly people do not know that dasam Granth compositions are mentioned in all literature of that time
starting from Parchain sewa dass written in 1708, Gurshobha of kavi sainapat written in 1711, Rehatnamas of Bhai nand lal ji, Bhai Dya singh, Bhai chaupa singh etc etc.

What other proof these Gurnindaks want when the manuscripts are there and proof is there that Dasam granth banis were read during Amrit sanchar of 1699. 

What banis they  people read in their nitnem? Do they have a different set of Nitnem?


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

http://www.sikhreview.org/march2001/chronicle.htm

Creation of Khalsa as described by 
Bhatt Sarup Singh Kaushish 
in "Guru Kian Sakhian"

[Part II]@

Harnam Singh Shan, D.Litt.*

*              Eminent scholar, former Prof. & Chair, Guru Nanak Studies, Punjab University, Chandigarh. 

[605, Sector 16 Chandigarh, 160015, Punjab] 

Quote

Paying at first her obeisance to Guru ji, she poured the patasas from her lap into that bowl. The all-knowing Guru ji did not look at her and continued with his recitation of Jap ji with full concentration. After reciting the sacred compositions of Jap ji, Jaap Sahib, Sawayyas and Chaupai, he recited Anand Sahib. When the ambrosial elixir became ready, he stood up and performed the Ardas. Concluding it with the prayer; he called out Fateh, and raised aloud the spirited chant of Sat Sri Akal.

Unquote


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ।
> sunee pukaari daataar prabhu guru naanak jag maahi patdaaiaa|
> The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.
> 
> ...



Khalsa Ji,
Gurfateh.

This is so clear.
Charan Dhoi..washed His feet...( for what ??)
Rehraas Kar..( To do rehrass Paath).

Rehrass is the EVENING PRAYER...and Guur nanak ji as well as most of His Sikhs were FARMERS..who toiled in their fileds..came back home in the evening..all dirty and sweating.  They all sat down to Perform REHRAASS after washing thweir FEET.
This washign of FEET is still practised in ALL Gurdwaras in India...every sangat member walks through a Trough of flowing water to clean his/her feet...

SIMPLE COMMONSENSE....still being practised TODAY.

And then..the CHARAMRIT is the GURBANI THOUGHTS..the AMRIT of Khasam Ki bani that FLOWS at the FEET..the CHARANKAMAL of the TRUE GURU...the SIKHS "DRINK" that AMRIT by sitting at the Charankamals of the GURU....

Again Simple Commonsense....we too all SIT at the FEET..the Charankamal of the SGGS...even TODAY...and DRINK the AMRIT of GURBANI that is being served in all GURDWARAS....

We love to make simple things complicated...how the SANTS/SAADHS would LOVE it IF this "practise" were to get a great following...they could then SELL their washing/bathing water as Amrit..and make a killing ( not that they dont do that now )....:advocate::advocate:


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## Inder singh (Jun 1, 2009)

When a sikh was getting initiated there was a procedure to take Gurmantra. That was Charan pahul and then Gurmantra.

Guru gobind singh ji substituted that by kahnde bate di pahul. In that panj piaras give Gurmantra. 

Bhai gurdas ji has written the fact about the procedure. There is no rocket science involved here.Otherwise give us refrence from sikh history disproving that.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 1, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayario Jio,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> Why the "doubt..duality" ?
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

I like this forum...many times I can simar Waheguru while writing and reading..because in day to day life..many times I forget it...

Thanks Gyani ji... I don't have doubt..but consfused...I heard in a kahta..that Baanis of other than Guru Ji is incorporated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...after they got Muktee (living in this world)....thats why all shelok of Bhagat Kabir Ji...all Baani of Bhagat Namdev is not in SGGS Ji.....

Well thanks for clearing my confusion... 


Chardi Kala.............


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> When a sikh was getting initiated there was a procedure to take Gurmantra. That was Charan pahul and then Gurmantra.
> 
> Guru gobind singh ji substituted that by kahnde bate di pahul. In that panj piaras give Gurmantra.
> 
> Bhai gurdas ji has written the fact about the procedure. There is no rocket science involved here.Otherwise give us refrence from sikh history disproving that.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have proven again and again that distortion has become your speciality. It is sad to notice that you fail to comprehend the difference between the metaphor and the literal.

When asked about references, either you show your ire or you become mum.  You disrespect and second guess our Gurus. You pretend to play Ik Ong Kaar. You have failed to respond most of the questions and to top it all you claim yourself to be one proud Jatt since the time of our Gurus and for you all bhapas belong to the lower caste which include all our Gurus.

Now be brave and give refrences from SGGS for your Gurmat degrading concept of Charan pahul which is Santmat not Gurmat. I wish you knew the difference.

Please do not come with a cop our excuse of Khandei Di Pahul not being  in SGGS. Khandei di pahul created Khalsa panth which has nothing to do with Charan pahul. So your assertion and claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji subsituted Charan pahul withh Khande di pahul is not only baseless but also false.

You also mentioned that a person is only a Sikh after having been given Gurmanter. Please explain in detail of this ritual that you claim and respond to my question which I asked you before that a child born in Sikh household is not a Sikh according to you and why?

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 1, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> I like this forum...many times I can simar Waheguru while writing and reading..because in day to day life..many times I forget it...
> 
> ...



Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

Kathas are not always right. Most kathawachaks have simply makhee te makhee maarni ..learnt from their own sant ji/babaji/waddeh mahapurash Ji..who in turn learnt form his own..waddeh abba ji...and so on...IN FACT some chelas of such quote more of..Waddeh baba Ji kehndeh hundeh see..than quote from GURBANI...in a ONE HOUR Lecture/kirtan..WADDEH BABA JI..comes in at least 50 times while "CHHOTTEH BABA JI _ GURU NANAK JI..comes in once or twice !! Such SHEER DISRESPECT to GURBANI..astounds me...)

Read Professor Sahib Singh ji SGGS Darpan Introduction pages where he gives proof that GURU NANAK JI had the banis of Bhagats Nd Farid Ji BEFORE HIM...as Guru Ji also wrote shabads to complement...elaborate...explain...khol ke... those by the bhagats and Farid Ji. After seeing those proofs you will see that Guru Ji Himself personally collected the Banis that HE FOUND SUITABLE...and INCLUDED ONLY THOSE.

1. There is a whole lot of Kabir's Works OUTSIDE the SGGS....the Kabir Panthis have this Granth of Kabir Ji....there is also lots of other "banis" that *GURU JI REJECTED*.( By NOT SELECTING them for inclusion in the SGGS ). We just cannot adopt double standards...!!! ALL SIKHS MUST Abide by GURU JIS CHOICE in thsi matter.

2. THIS ACTION of GURU Nanak Ji, Guru Arjun Ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji FURTHER strengthens the SGGS as GURBANI of Khasam ki bani Dhur KI Bani. ALL "banis" LEFT OUTSIDE the SGGS..be they Kabir jis banis or any others are just that..OUTSIDE BANIS...NOT accorded the HONOUR of being Included in SGGS as GURBANI.PERIOD. We should stop second guessing the GURU JI SAHIB.  Sikhs are doing this..Kabir panthis are doing it..the Ravidassis are doing it....ITS WRONG and SHOULD BE STOPPED. While we have nothing to say about kabir panthis ravidassis etc....we should take care of our own..and only regard SGGS as the SOLE GURU..having GURBANI.

Keep in Chardeekalla jios...


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## jasi (Jun 2, 2009)

Wahe Guru Ji Ka khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh.

There is no point to pin picking of any things happened in the past according to the circumstances .Who did that .who is right? Who wrote what? religious fanatics are just like a deadly snakes or Dictators in their realm who impose every thing according to their own perceived imaginations.Nimrata is the key in Sikhism and great respect for the humanity. To play politics is a subject itself and respect your voting right and its use when time come to elect the leaders.Educations is needed for awareness to our brothers and sisters in the villages of their rights not what we are debating about our Gurus.Leave it alone and get involved to spread the great teaching of our Gurus and Bahagts. We are all come from one light and we are all are one.We respect all other faiths . We do not criticize any other who has different path to appreciate the Almighty. I have never seen any faith which has engraved in their Ardas to pray for all human being to be in good health and successful in their life.
"TERE BHANE SARBAT DA BHALLA" This is our Gurus teachings.Be proud to be Sikh(follower of truth)
Final saying stands until today and for ever:Guru "Granth Saheb Ji Manio Paragat Guran Ki Deh" Seekers may find Gurus realization in the "SHABDS"
　
According to me there is not a single writing to natch which is addressing every thing about oneness and be concentrate on good deeds and praise the creator regardless of one origin or cast.
　
Well known Bhagat's bani has been added in Gur Granth Saheb Ji  to guide us more to be dedicated and praising the Almighty for his creations.
　
What other matters are a history full of events for Sikhs to go through during Mogul empire. At this junctures let us be united and educate ourselves to live civilized way in true democracy. 
Stop being self centered and use religious plat form to be recognized as big SANT with thousands of followers instead of redirecting the people towrads only Guru Shri  Guru Granth Saheb Ji , to follow by understanding the meanings of the SHABADS not by reciting like a parrot.

Bhul chuk Maf Karna.

Jaspi


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 2, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayario Jios,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> Kathas are not always right. Most kathawachaks have simply makhee te makhee maarni ..learnt from their own sant ji/babaji/waddeh mahapurash Ji..who in turn learnt form his own..waddeh abba ji...and so on...IN FACT some chelas of such quote more of..Waddeh baba Ji kehndeh hundeh see..than quote from GURBANI...in a ONE HOUR Lecture/kirtan..WADDEH BABA JI..comes in at least 50 times while "CHHOTTEH BABA JI _ GURU NANAK JI..comes in once or twice !! Such SHEER DISRESPECT to GURBANI..astounds me...)
> ...



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ji Fateh...

 I apologize to Sangat for creating confusion.

Gyani Ji ..you are right. By writing "after they got Muktee (living in this world)" I doesn't mean that Sheikh Farid Ji, Bhagat Kabir Ji were in this world alive "Sharerik Roop Se"....But I mean to say after they reached certain stage...of Mukteee(Jeete Jee Mukt Hona)...I specially wrote "(living in this world)" to convey that even we can get Muktee while existing and living with this human body...we need not have to die to get muktee...like what is conveyed in Hinduism....

Sorry for confusion....my mistake...I should have explained it....

Second, I :aagree: with you on such katha vaachak's....

Sangat maafi bakshe...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh........


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 2, 2009)

jaspi said:


> Wahe Guru Ji Ka khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh.
> 
> 
> "TERE BHANE SARBAT DA BHALLA" This is our Gurus teachings.Be proud to be Sikh(follower of truth)



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Adding, till the time we doesn't say this in Ardaas...our Ardaas is not complete... we have been blessed with Guru Ji's teachings, where Sikhs always call for "Sarbat Da Bhala"

Chardi Kala....


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

> Now be brave and give refrences from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for your Gurmat degrading concept of Charan pahul which is Santmat not Gurmat. I wish you knew the differenc



As stated earlier you will not find such refrences in SGGS ji as message of SGGS ji to spirit. You will find the refrence in sikh history. try to understand.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 2, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> As stated earlier you will not find such refrences in SGGS ji as message of SGGS ji to spirit. You will find the refrence in sikh history. try to understand.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for admitting that for you history has more value than SGGS, our only GURU. It is a shame to notice that you fail to realise that history is written by men and has been also distorted by men but you embrace it more that anything else, especially our only GURU SGGS, which can not be distorted and it is Dhur ki Baani and yet you call yourself an Amritdhari. Perhaps that is why you did not even know REHAT is mentioned in SGGS.

Inder Singh ji,

Slowly you are admitting things and exposing your trueself which shows your hatred for Sikhi. That is why you get angry and abusive towards those who talk about Sikhi prescribed to us in SGGS -our ONLY GURU.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

T





> hanks for admitting that for you history has more value than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only GURU. It is a shame to notice that you fail to realise that history is written by men and has been also distorted by men but you embrace it more that anything else, especially our only GURU Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which can not be distorted and it is Dhur ki Baani and yet you call yourself an Amritdhari. Perhaps that is why you did not even know REHAT is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



You can only call names. History and tarditions is an important part of an organized religion. Khalsa rehat is found in SGGS ji. If you have found one post the relevant shabad here.
Inder Singh ji,



> Slowly you are admitting things and exposing your trueself which shows your hatred for Sikhi. That is why you get angry and abusive towards those who talk about Sikhi prescribed to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji -our ONLY GURU


.


I am not angry but it is you resort to personal atatcks. You should know that Gurmantra is an important event in sikhism. 

Bhai gurdas ji writes
[FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]*Gur Deekhya Lai Sikh, Sikh Sadaayaa * (Var 3, Pauri 11) 
 One is called a Sikh only after he has been blessed with 'deekhya.  

You are here to mislead young people by your warped arguments that anti gurmat. Shame on you by carrying out the role of a fifth columinst.
[/FONT]


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

> hanks for admitting that for you history has more value than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only GURU. It is a shame to notice that you fail to realise that history is written by men and has been also distorted by men but you embrace it more that anything else, especially our only GURU Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which can not be distorted and it is Dhur ki Baani and yet you call yourself an Amritdhari. Perhaps that is why you did not even know REHAT is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


You can only call names. History and traditions are an important part of an organized religion. Khalsa rehat is not found in SGGS ji. If you have found one post the relevant shabad here.Do njot beat about bush.
Inder Singh ji,



> Slowly you are admitting things and exposing your trueself which shows your hatred for Sikhi. That is why you get angry and abusive towards those who talk about Sikhi prescribed to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji -our ONLY GURU


.


I am not angry but it is you resort to personal atatcks. You should know that Gurmantra is an important event in sikhism. 

Bhai gurdas ji writes
[FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]*Gur Deekhya Lai Sikh, Sikh Sadaayaa * (Var 3, Pauri 11) 
 One is called a Sikh only after he has been blessed with 'deekhya.  

You are here to mislead young people by your warped arguments that are anti gurmat. Shame on you for carrying out the role of a fifth columinst.[/FONT]


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 2, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your anger and ire and hatred towards Sikhi and Sikhs is self evident. That is why you post the same post twice and have done that quite often.

Take it easy.:inca:

You write:



> You can only call names. History and traditions are an important part of an organized religion. *Khalsa rehat is not found in SGGS ji.* If you have found one post the relevant shabad here.Do njot beat about bush.


 
Inder ji,

Time to seek the truth and learn about Sikhi once again. Please tell me in details what is the difference between Khalsa Rehat and Rehat mentioned in the SGGS. Please use Gurbani from SGGS to elaborate your point.

One more Sikhi lesson for your educational benefit. The concept of Khalsa was started by Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism and Khalsa Panth was created by Guru Gobind Singh.

In other words, The cake of Khalsa was baked by our 9 Gurus whereas Guru Gobind Singh put the icing on the cake- yummy.



> I am not angry but it is you resort to personal atatcks. You should know that Gurmantra is an important event in sikhism.


 
Well, denial is one more trait that you seem to be proud of. Your posts are the proof. I have nothing to say about that. I have only responded to your attacks and shown your true colors. The fact remains you are ANTI SIKHI because you are against the teachings of SGGS, yet you call yourself an Amritdhari Sikh. It is very easy to wear a knee long kacheera and decorate oneself with other Kakaars, but the truth comes out when a person plays Ik Ong Kaar and has no respect for SGGS which you have done repeatedly in this forum.

I have asked you many times before and let me ask you again, Explain Gurmantra based on SGGS. I hope you do that this time.



> Bhai gurdas ji writes
> [FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]*Gur Deekhya Lai Sikh, Sikh Sadaayaa *(Var 3, Pauri 11) [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]One is called a Sikh only after he has been blessed with 'deekhya. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]You are here to mislead young people by your warped arguments that are anti gurmat. Shame on you for carrying out the role of a fifth columinst.[/FONT]


 
Is the above in SGGS- our ONLY GURU? NO. You see you reveal your anti Sikh sentiments quite gallantly and shamelessly.

Thanks for proving my point again given in my previous post that you embrace History which has been distorted many times and reject the teachings of SGGS- our ONLY GURU, which can NEVER be distorted.

So now one wonders who is misleading here, the one who embraces SGGS uncondtionally, which is myself or one who has no regards for SGGS and embraces distorted history, which is YOU!

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 2, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> When a sikh was getting initiated there was a procedure to take Gurmantra. That was Charan pahul and then Gurmantra.
> 
> Guru gobind singh ji substituted that by kahnde bate di pahul. In that panj piaras give Gurmantra.
> 
> Bhai gurdas ji has written the fact about the procedure. There is no rocket science involved here.Otherwise give us refrence from sikh history disproving that.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh........

I just want to support with an example...we dig a Tubewell ..or you can say we dwell or dig to get water out of land...we dig to a extent we find a water...then what....had any body seen what we do afterwards....we call some body to get some water....why..because unless and until we put some water from outside...the water in the land will not come up....its happens many times when machine doesn't pump water from land...we put some water from top...to extract the water...........same way...Amrit is Inside... We put the Khanda Baata Pahul (Amrti) from outside....then we run the machine of Baani....to get that amrit out...in our lifestyle........well I heard this , well I guess, in Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen's or may be Gyani  Thakur Singh Ji's Katha...........


This will might help to some extent what is Khalsa made of ..in respect of Panj Pyare...In respect of 5 Baaniyaan...... Its a katha how Guru Ji Created Khalsa..What is the significance of Panj Pyare...by name...by their place..what is the significance of 5 baaniyaan ..what they signify...I strongly suggest this....please listen it once.....

Online : Copy paste this url in browser (First there is keertan..and from 60th minute is Katha about Khalsa by Gyani Dharamveer Singh Ji...


```
http://www.zshare.net/audio/60732444ce5b0ad6/
```
download: zSHARE - What is Khalsa..._.mp3

"SARBAT DA BHALA'


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 2, 2009)

Veer Inder Singh ji, these people aren't trustworthy.They are be=mukh from Guru. For these people Guru sahab has written,"Moorkhe naal na lujiye Kar gallan eho bujiye."
 They think that they are the only wise person on planet earth. all those people like Bhai Veer Singh ji and other members of the society who presented the rules of Sikh rahat maryada were not intelligent because these extra intelligent persons were not born then, This is their sorrow and regrett.
 So you just have patience and cool yourself. They won't agree with you . You may keep trying a 100 more times. 
I again say,"Panchon ki baat sir-maathe par Parnala wahin bahega." Don't argue with close associates of Kala afganiye  anymore please and give a full stop to this thread now.


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

> Time to seek the truth and learn about Sikhi once again. Please tell me in details what is the difference between Khalsa Rehat and Rehat mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Please use Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to elaborate your point.



There was a rehat followed during nine gurus time for example a seeker wishing to become a Guru's sikh had to be initiated by Guru sahib.That is where charan pahul comes in the picture.

This rehat was substituted by guru Gobidn singh ji taking pahul from panj piaras.







.





> The fact remains you are ANTI SIKHI because you are against the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, yet you call yourself an Amritdhari Sikh. It is very easy to wear a knee long kacheera and decorate oneself with other Kakaars, but the truth comes out when a person plays Ik Ong Kaar and has no respect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which you have done repeatedly in this forum.



It is you who is teaching anti sikh guidelines to young sikhs here. Guru dikhia was the most important step to become a sikh where Charan pahul was adminitered to a seeker and Gurmanatra was given. You are propagating against it.

Read Guru granth sahib carefully before acknowledging yourself a scholar of SGGS ji. The importance of Gurmantra is stressed in that.

[FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]*Gurmantar-Heenus Jo Praani Dhrigant Janam Bharashtneh.  Kookreh Sookreh Gardheh Kaakeh Sarpaneh Tul Khaieh *(pg. 1356-1357)  
One who is without the Gurmantra, is the most  accursed, and contaminated is his life. He is like a dog,  a swine, an ***, a crow a snake, and a blockhead.  [/FONT]





> I have asked you many times before and let me ask you again, Explain Gurmantra based on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I hope you do that this time.



Read above. Can you tell me what is gurmantra? Gurmantra has not undergone any change. Only sakats  are not willing to agree that there is a gurmantra.You claim on certain other sites that you are
an Amritdhari sikh. Did not Panj piaras gave you Gurmantra? Why do not you tell us that.



> Thanks for proving my point again given in my previous post that you embrace History which has been distorted many times and reject the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji- our ONLY GURU, which can NEVER be distorted.



So for you Bhai Gurads vaars have no meaning. Can you tell us who scribed Guru Granth sahib?



> So now one wonders who is misleading here, the one who embraces Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uncondtionally, which is myself or one who has no regards for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and embraces distorted history, which is YOU!



For sakats Guru granth sahib says
[FONT=Arial,Verdana, Helvetica]*Nigurey Ko Gat Kaaee Naahee  Avgann Muthhey, Chotaan Khahee. *(pg 361) 
 For him who is without the Guru, there is no liberation.  Deluded by evil propensities, he suffers.   

Let us not discuss personalities here. People like you and me come and go. it is message of sikhism that is important.
[/FONT]


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

> I again say,"Panchon ki baat sir-maathe par Parnala wahin bahega." Don't argue with close associates of Kala afganiye anymore please and give a full stop to this thread now.



These people are full of duplicacy, resort to twisting and lies. These people have no respect for Guru granth sahib also.They are old communists in new clothings.

My point is if we do not confront them who else will. Sikh rehat maryada was evolved after a lot of thought wherein scholars of panth  discussed and finalized for over 15 years. These people do not accept that.

In fact their whole thrust is attack on Guru Gobind singh sahib. See this man how he speaks about Amrit?


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

To know something about this anti sikh cult please see the video

Sikh Clips


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 2, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> There was a rehat followed during nine gurus time for example a seeker wishing to become a Guru's sikh had to be initiated by Guru sahib.That is where charan pahul comes in the picture.
> 
> This rehat was substituted by guru Gobidn singh ji taking pahul from panj piaras.
> 
> ...


 
Inder Ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for avoiding to respond once again. Typical. Too bad you disregard SGGS, not elaborate what asked, just copy and paste from  SGGS which you reject without explaining what you have copied and pasted from it.

Thanks for showing your  anti Gurmat stance, which was expected.




> Let us not discuss personalities here. People like you and me come and go. it is message of sikhism that is important.


 
Here again you have shown your falsehood, as usual. You have done nothing but discuss personalties. Your babble something else and practice something totally opposite. It is funny to say the least.The proof is in your last post in which you commented on hatred spewed by Ajmer Singh Randhawa. As they say," Birds of a feather, flock together".

 


Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 2, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Inder Singh ji, these people aren't trustworthy.They are be=mukh from Guru. For these people Guru sahab has written,"Moorkhe naal na lujiye Kar gallan eho bujiye."
> They think that they are the only wise person on planet earth. all those people like Bhai Veer Singh ji and other members of the society who presented the rules of Sikh rahat maryada were not intelligent because these extra intelligent persons were not born then, This is their sorrow and regrett.
> So you just have patience and cool yourself. They won't agree with you . You may keep trying a 100 more times.
> I again say,"Panchon ki baat sir-maathe par Parnala wahin bahega." Don't argue with close associates of Kala afganiye anymore please and give a full stop to this thread now.


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please read the whole thread and my posts before you jump to conclusions. And by quoting Gurbani to insult others  is not what Gurbani's objective. Our Gurus did not write Gurbani for the purpose you and Inder Singh are using. To the contrary. I thought you knew that. 

Discuss the issues based on Gurmat, given to us in SGGS our ONLY GURU and please do not misuse Gurbani in this fashion which is a true ninda to our Guru Sahibs. It shows we are flaunting our own ignorance laced with arrogance when we use Gurbani they way you and Inder Singh have.

I would request the same thing that I have asked Inder Singh ji, shed the hatred towards others only  because they disagree with you. Sikhi is about breeding goodness within and SGGS, our ONLY GURU gives us the tools to do that. Only by following SGGS we can eliminate hatred within and hence  become true Sikhs.

Disagreements are important part of Sikhi, hence a learning process. Let us not run away from it and become abusive. It shows more about the anger of a person and a cop out because a person/s ceases to logically follow SGGS, our ONLY GURU but becomes the victim/s of Me-ism whereas Gurbani tells us all about ONE-ism.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 2, 2009)

It is very important to return to the thread topic. A few forum members have expressed confusion as to what this thread is about. More than one moderator also questioned the direction of the thread. Last warning. The topic is Ardaas Changed in a Finland sangat. Thank you


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

Discussion of Ardass, sggs, sikh rehat has changed to name calling, threats,  thugs, communists, hatred, anger, FRUSTRATION at failure to get the point across...and YES Men have also flocked together to pat each others backs...and now on to hate videos that never proved anything except that some "SIKHS" will even go to the extent of misuse Waheguru Gurmantar to DISRUPT SGGS sanctioned Darbar/Programme...and RIOT in front of SGGS.. Who is a real thug and not is so clear...
 IMHO...Time is right to close this thread. Its purpose of explaining Sikh rehat, *SUPREMACY OF SGGS* at all costs has been served.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Giani ji, you are persuading Sant Hari Singh ji Randhawa walleh to join the discussion so that you may compel him to speak something in favor or against. If Akal Takhat has banned to discuss on Dasam Granth, we should distance ourself, Our motto on this forum is to discuss the change in Ardas. Some discussion has already taken place regarding Dasam Granth, that also in ignorance if it has been banned by Akal Takhat. It may not not be a supreme authority for you and some of your friends but it for us. So please don't go to insist upon banned topics. Sikhnet should also see into this.



GURU PIAYARIO JIO,
GURFATEH.

imho you are making too many assumptions on my behalf. I have just provided a link to a newsreport...and am not persuading/dissuading anyone. Posters can read and come to their own conclusions...many have been quite happy to attend and speak at dsm garnth seminars...isnt THAT also discussing ??
anyway Ardass was CHANGED and it has to do with dsm granth..so the two cannot be separated..as the original ardass paurre is from there and it has been changed BECAUSE of that fact.
You are again making an assumption about Akal takhat being or not being supreme authority...we must avoid trying to throw paint on others simply becasue we disagree. The "Jathedar" is NOT the *Akal Takhat*..IF he was..then he woudlnt be so *UNCEREMONIOUSLY REMOVED* at the BLINK of Badals EYE !!..ALL Badal has got to do is BLINK..and OUT the jathedar GOES..as Bhai ranjit Singh, Poorn Singh Luv kush..Vedanti etc etc has proved already...so its NOT "supreme" anyway as Badal is supreme.
WE MUST all endeavour to ensure that the Takhats are really SUPREME. I pray for the Day when the Takhats are really supreme in every sense of the word.....
UNTIL all SIKHS are UNITED and FACE up to problems facing us...we can never really move forward and overcome all these problems...weak sikhs make for easy targets..
Thank You.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

Gyani ji, I agree with you that now a days Jathedar ji of Akal Takhat is not having supreme authority. That is just because of the political interference and the control upon SGPC by Badal group who are also offenders of Panth. I want the same status to the Jathedar ji of Akal Takhat as Pope of Vatican. But the Akal Takhat is still supreme and shall ever remain so.
Baadal has destroyed the valor and pride of Sikhs. He is not spared by the Sikh patriots. You can view punjabkekamine.blogspot.com and realize what respect do we have for these cowarda and traitors of Panth. He has all the family members to run his govt, other than his servants and the money he has collected on the cost of the dead of Sikh youths in Punjab, he will have to repay. That's the justice of nature. He has crossed the saturation limit. So leave him a side and come to the main topic. 
When you are aware that Ardas and Dasam Granth can not be separeted and that's what we say, then what is the objection and what for an unnecessary lengthy argument? Let's give  a full stop to this thread now.
Gur fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

The "lengthy argument" is for the benefit of readers worldwide to see BOTH sides and come to a conclusion. This si the 21st century...3rd Millineum..age of IT and Internet..Knowledge explosion...13th century methods of..I tell YOU..YOU LISTEN are long gone..Youth of Today DEMAND reasonable logical answers..not blind faith..annhee shardha..total beleif in so called sants and babas...and FORTUNATELY the GURMATT Gadee Raah Super Duper Highway... as shown in SGGS is Super Logical,Based on Solid FACT and REASON..and leaves no room for Doubts, duality, hocus pocus snake oil merchants to exploit. SGGS is Sarab kala SAMPOORAN..POORA SATGUR for ALL TIME..SELFSUSTAINING..requiring no external "aids" help/sustenance..support . Our Guru nanak ji - Guru Gobind Singh Ji - Guru Granth Sahib Ji Sampooran Guru...Only GURU we need.
The Shabad...the KHALSA..are all that BEGAN with GURU NANAK JI..continued and were brought to SAMPOORNTA under the GURU for ALL time..SGGS. As LONG as SGGS IS...the KHALSA PANTH will always BE !!!KHALSA ZINDABAD


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## spnadmin (Jun 3, 2009)

Forum members 

This thread has been closed. A number of readers have pointed out that it has been impossible to follow the original discussion related to the Finland sangatth and its change of Ardaas. The thread no longer seemed to be about a recognizable topic. 

Posts regarding Kala Afghana that were posted after moderator's warning have been moved to this thread: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25205-kala-afghana-discussion-redux-3.html


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