# May Sikhs Eat Kosher Foods Other Than Meat?



## GurjitJ (Jul 23, 2011)

I was just wondering if it was ok to eat kosher foods that arent meat. Like fruits, vegtables and juices and stuff.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 23, 2011)

GurjitJ said:


> I was just wondering if it was ok to eat kosher foods that arent meat. Like fruits, vegtables and juices and stuff.



How can that be Kosher?


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## GurjitJ (Jul 23, 2011)

I think that they can. I saw on my orange juice bottle a while ago that it was kosher.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 23, 2011)

I certainly hope - and believe -  that it is OK to eat kosher food as long as it is not meat.  It is halal and kosher meat that is forbidden to Amritdhari Sikhs.  An interesting fact is that kosher foods are not generally blessed or prayed over.



> Many agencies exist to approve products as kosher. The food is not blessed, but rather the entire manufacturing process is routinely inspected to ensure that everything is produced according to Jewish law.
> http://web.mit.edu/burton2/studybreak.html




Yes, all processed foods Orthodox Jews - and most Conservative Jews - eat must be certified as kosher.   This does not include fresh produce, but it does cover everything else.

One Jewish dietary law not much known outside of Jewish circles is that it is not kosher to eat dairy and meat at the same meal.  This is relevant to vegetarian Sikhs because most cheese is made with rennet, an enzyme harvested from the stomach of baby cows.  Kosher cheese, however, uses vegetable enzymes to accomplish the same purpose.  I use Tillamook cheese personally for the most part because it meets my requirements and also is of good quality and reasonable price.

It is still necessary to be careful, though.  Not all kosher dairy products are acceptable to vegetarian Sikhs.  They might contain eggs or even something called "kosher gelatin."  Gelatin is made from the hooves of animals.  The rabbis have decided that the product has been processed to the point that it is no longer meat, but is now neutral (parva/pareve).  Go figure.  It is still made from a dead animal and is thus not vegetarian.   This is especially a problem with most yogurt.  Read the ingredients.  Most of them - including Tillamook brand - contain gelatin.   I buy Mountain High brand or make my own.  (BTW, yogurt is called curd in India.)

For a picture of marks indicating if a food is kosher, as well as some other interesting facts on kosher foods, I recommend Burton2:  Study Breaks.  At least I found it interesting.


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> How can that be Kosher?



Because Kosher does not refer to a method of killing. It is a broader term that refers to purity and can apply to food but other things as well. It includes cooking fats, vegetable and not, flours, cracker meal for dumplings, lotions and creams, candles, and more.

That has been a problem all along our discussions of halal and kosher meat. These terms should not be used interchangeably because *kosher meat is not killed according to ritual.* There are no exclamations similar to Alah Akbar. Only a finely sharpened knife, an abatoire that meets with rabbinical standards of cleanliness, and a trained wielder of the knife. I checked this out at a local rabbinical college in my area.


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2011)

Here is an interesting note (at least i think it is interesting). When meat is slaughtered for Jews in the slaughter houses of a given area, this happens in the morning. The abatoires are cleaned meticulously. After the slaughter for Jewish butchers and meat packers is complete, the halal for Muslim butchers and packers then takes place in the same abatoires. Muslims considering the hosing down after Jewish slaughter good enough.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 23, 2011)

Mai Harinder Kaur ji an spnadmin ji, if you have not seen the movie "Earthlings (2003)" you may try (WARNING:  Some scenes you will remember for the rest of your lives so be careful, I know I will).  It has PETA oriented approach to show worst of the worst that animals suffer through in food chain and clothing/fur production.  There was a scene also of a "Kosher" slaughter of a Buffalo, pretty disgusting.  A Chinese guy skinning a live Wolf/Fox hung upside down while the animal keeps looking at the camera helplessly.  

What ends up in the grocery stores or clothing stores of course has no such Imagery or it won't sell.  It is likely also that worst of the worse practices hopefully are not as prevalent.  Jhatka or one blow by far appears comparatively civilized.

The rest of the stuff about gummy bears (gelatin), cheese, eggs and other is rather civilized by being tail end of bye-products, etc.  We do make our own yogurt and it is much tastier with no additives other than the culture.

I have kind of given up in being too picky on this stuff as it is a losing battle with food processing and packaging.  

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 23, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Mai Harinder Kaur ji an spnadmin ji, if you have not seen the movie "Earthlings (2003)" you may try (WARNING:  Some scenes you will remember for the rest of your lives so be careful, I know I will).  It has PETA oriented approach to show worst of the worst that animals suffer through in food chain and clothing/fur production.  There was a scene also of a "Kosher" slaughter of a Buffalo, pretty disgusting.  A Chinese guy skinning a live Wolf/Fox hung upside down while the animal keeps looking at the camera helplessly.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



I thought of that kosher scene as I wrote and decided not to bring it up.  I'm glad someone else did.


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## Ishna (Jul 23, 2011)

Sorry for this basic question, but why is kosher meat forbidden to an Amritdhari if it's not slaughtered ritually?  I thought that was the problem with the halal meat - it is slaughtered ritually and with Allah Akbar said over it.

Is it that Amritdhari's can only eat jhatka meat?

I don't want to talk about Sikhs eating meat or not.  I'm just curious about the opinions regarding Sikhs eating these kinds of meats.

Thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 23, 2011)

ISNT IT AMAZING  that SIKHS seem to be getting pulled into this QUICKSAND so fast and furious..day by day....
1. The SGGS avoided this entire diet thingy as fit for MOORAKHS to discuss and fight over.
2. The Sikhs who formulated the SRM...got influenced by OUTSIDE FORCES (Hindu/Muslim religious environment)..and formulated the Jhatka/hallal restriction.
3. Now Sikhs are asking..is it ok to eat "kosher"...?? Kosher diednt even feature as aword even in SGGS !! or in the SRM....
4. Tomorrow Sikhs may be asking..about Chinese food..Buddhist food..Foods that a re OK for Neplai Hindus ?? for Kazhakstaani Mongols ?? for Americna Indian tribes living in Nicaragua ??..Can SIKHS eat this and That....????

I am AMAZED at how far sikhs can DEVIATE away from SGGS and the SERIOUS STUFF in the 1429 pages....to simply FRIVILOUS STUFF....meant only for MOORAKHS. I wonder if all of us have already EXHAUSTED all the HEAVY STUFF in SGGS..which 10 Guru sahibs spent over 250 YEARS to bring to us....that we must waste time on this utterly frivilous subject...???


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 24, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> ISNT IT AMAZING  that SIKHS seem to be getting pulled into this QUICKSAND so fast and furious..day by day....
> 1. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji avoided this entire diet thingy as fit for MOORAKHS to discuss and fight over.
> 2. The Sikhs who formulated the SRM...got influenced by OUTSIDE FORCES (Hindu/Muslim religious environment)..and formulated the Jhatka/hallal restriction.
> 3. Now Sikhs are asking..is it ok to eat "kosher"...?? Kosher diednt even feature as aword even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji !! or in the SRM....
> ...



I agree the subject itself is silly, but it might not be to someone who really doesn't know.

I have used it as an opportunity to teach a bit about another religion that might be of interest to some people.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2011)

I think the distinction of healthy vs unhealthy is quite enough, and fulfills the basic Sikh dietary requirements. We need not create more distinctions. Sikh dietary requirements are based on the idea of being _tyar bar tyar_, fully conscious/fully aware. 

What follows from this?
No alcohol and avoid other intoxicants, as they reduce conscious awareness. Practice _naam simran_ instead.

Eat lows carbs combined with healthy fats and proteins, so one is less drowsy after a meal.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 24, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji I agree with your thinking in general.  

Are the Cholay Bhathureh allowed per your thoughts?

By the way why you want to be less drowsy after a meal? I thought that is what body naturally wants to do.  Siesta time all the time!  

I thought the healthy body is the one that talks back.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jul 24, 2011)

Sometimes Sikhi can be so confusing, it is difficult to know what to believe.

Is Sikhi supposed to be this complicated?

If Sikhs just did what SGGS told us to do it would be a lot easier, but there would be no SRM, and no Khalsa.  There would be no uncut hair, no turban, people would eat what they like, and simply be honest, hard working, good natured citizens absorbed in the rememberence of God.

Everything else is too bloomin' complicated.

yellingsardarni


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 24, 2011)

<<<<<<<<<<*If Sikhs just did what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji told us to do it would be a lot easier>>>>>>>>

Ishna Ji..
This is where you are sadly very mistaken.......its not as "easy" as you think to be a SIKH according to the SGGS....in Fact as I have already pointed out in an earlier posting..even GURU ARJUN JI the compiler of SGGS considers HIMSELF..barely "Half a sikh"...and the ONE and ONLY Complete SIKH in front of Him was GURU RAMDASS JI.

If one can be 0.01 % a SIKH according to SGGS..the REST of your post...about SRM Khalsa hair etc becomes totally  irrelevant....because when heat is put to water it will BOIL naturally...so when the SGGS is applied to a Human Being..SIKHI/KHALSA/SRM etc all follow Naturally...The trouble with Modern Sikhs is they want to ..."see the water boiling" before they light the fire !!! they want to be Khalsa etc BEFORE they even understand the SGGS 0.01%.
*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 24, 2011)

SGGS declares..Thorra khayah..thorra soaa..eat in MODERATION..sleep in MODERATION...the Key word is MODERATION...
Din gavaiah khayeh ke..rein gavaee soi ke..
Day is LOST in eating...NIGHT lost in SLEPING !!

SGGS only bars EXCESSIVE.........excessive wealth collecting..excessive woman collecting..excessive servant collecting..excessive food..excessive clothing...jewelery..cars..horse..cows..elephants..computers..and YES EXCESSIVE POSTINGS on SPN !! facebooks and Gmails etc etc Ha Ha Ha..

and yes Chholay Bhatureh are my fav too..my sister makes them every fortnight...sundays....just had this heavenly dish twice in four hours..EXCESSIVE YES !! admitted and guilty as charged.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2011)

Who could not like Cholay Bhaturay?

(... and then there will be those who say who could not like a glass of whiskey or two?)

I am not saying either is good or bad. They both have their place and to each his own.

_Tyar bar tyar_ is a good summary of Sikh thought. _Tyar bar tyar_ for anything, the unraveling of God's will. _Tyar bar tyar_ to obtain any understanding that is available as it unravels. _Tyar bar tyar  _to receive Guru's wisdom in that moment.

That wisdom maybe "I could eat a few more puris" or it maybe "I should probably stop". A decision that comes from the understanding will be best for that time. What is "allowed" will be revealed by the Guru.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 24, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Ishna ji wonderful posts.

I agree with all of you and see it as enjoy, simplicity, moderation and listen to your body as it will tell you quickly or in time if you are eating something bad though tasty.

Bhagat Singh ji as you said, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji has said many times as well, and I agree, to help people focus on bigger parts of Khalsa and Guru ji's message, this is also very important *"to each his/her own".*  If this was practiced there will be no Derah in Beas lol, dishing out garbage about eggs and meat as though this is the issue of the future of the world.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Sometimes Sikhi can be so confusing, it is difficult to know what to believe.
> 
> Is Sikhi supposed to be this complicated?
> 
> ...



Ishnabhenji, 

what you are talking about is the state, I believe, every sikh should find before they move on to the SRM and the Khalsa. 

I think the complications set in possibly, when you are trying to fly a helicopter with a car licence. I don't know if you ever saw Indiana Jones and the last crusade, (one of my fav films) , but at the end, when Indiana has his hand on the Grail, his father tells him to let it go, grasping ever so tightly on ideals we do not understand does not get us anywhere, but letting go should not lower morale, it just isnt time yet, my own view? I think for me, just being honest, truthful, respectful of life, true to myself, not getting angry, not judging, and so forth, a plethora of tasks and jobs I have to master before the next level. 

The question of kosher or not kosher is a valid question, and Gyaniji is correct that it is a question for moorukhs, but then are we not all moorukhs? and what does that make those that do not even ask the question, but take a guess at the answer that is more than likely the wrong one


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## Randip Singh (Jul 25, 2011)

I would say no.

The reason ebing is that the Sikh view would be that t is needless purification. How can you purify that which has been created by God?


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2011)

Randip ji

Why is there no prohibition against kosher meat in the Rehat Maryada?  Why add, or make things more complicated than they really have to be?

All we are talking about is a sharp knife and a sanitary abatoire. No extras. The kosher slaughter is totally different from halal slaughter. This is a fact, not my opinion. 

Therefore, it follows logically. Kosher foods are permitted.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 25, 2011)

To take the matter to its logical extreme, if we are going to split hairs (not a very Sikh thing to do on a couple of levels!), :noticekudi:

all fresh produce is kosher by default.  As I write I am eating fresh mango and strawberry.  "Nuff said!  peacesignkaur


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 25, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Randip ji
> 
> Why is there no prohibition against kosher meat in the Rehat Maryada?  Why add, or make things more complicated than they really have to be?
> 
> ...


spnadmin ji I am not knowledgeable on Kosher meat processing.  I saw the slaughter example in the movie Earthlings and the captivated animal had a cut to the neck and the head was not severed.  It was allowed to bleed and slowly die.  Isn't that conflicting with Jhatka method?  I do not know if the "sacrificial" part is also in Kosher slaughter as none was shown in the scene I referenced.  

With packaging in the meat industry we are so removed from the actual slaughter, I find it much of a moot point personally.  If playing a tape in a chicken slaughter house makes it Halal, to me that shows example of shallowness of thinking that our Gurus countered many a times in their travels and Gurbani for various practices.

Perhaps we may want to call it,

 "Fools who wrangle over Jhatka and Kosher"
​
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 25, 2011)

Kosher foods seem to be just clean vegetables, dairy and other products.  So no reason I see of any issue.

For Kosher Slaughtering the below so to me it does not represent Jhatka.  Then again the SRM only states "Kutha" and it has been defined as meat prepared the Islamic way including sacrificial aspects, sacrificial aspects for slaughter are not part of Kosher.



> *Kosher slaughtering*
> 
> The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in  accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 12:21). We may not eat animals that  died of natural causes (Deut. 14:21) or that were killed by other  animals. In addition, the animal must have no disease or flaws in the  organs at the time of slaughter. These restrictions do not apply to  fish; only to the flocks and herds (Num. 11:22).
> Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root  Shin-Cheit-Teit. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep stroke across  the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or unevenness.  This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and  is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.
> ...





> *Fruits and Vegetables*
> 
> All fruits and vegetables are kosher (but see the note regarding Grape Products  below). However, bugs and worms that may be found in some fruits and  vegetables are not kosher. Fruits and vegetables that are prone to this  sort of thing should be inspected to ensure that they contain no bugs.  Leafy vegetables like lettuce and herbs and flowery vegetables like  broccoli and cauliflower are particularly prone to bugs and should be  inspected carefully. Strawberries and raspberries can also be  problematic. The Star-K  kosher certification organization has a very nice overview of the  fruits and vegetables prone to this and the procedure for addressing it  in each type.
> http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Certification



Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

Yes, Kosher slaughter is not the same as jatkha. However, Sikhs are not required to eat jatkha. Nor are they forbidden kosher. The eternal problem comes into any thread about meat when we confound the discussion of what is permitted/not permitted with the cruelty to animals issue.

If one is really serious about the cruelties of slaughter, then that requires a different thread.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 25, 2011)

Judaism is a religion that delights in God's Law and interpretation of that Law, both Torah (written Law - the first 5 books of the Bible) and Talmud (oral tradition).  Interpretation is often very much hair-splitting by using a type of argument, the pilpul.  This method is quite interesting and worth some research.  :noticekudi:

However, Sikhi takes a different approach.  As I understand it, we generally look at a rule and ask, "What is the purpose of this rule?" and base a decision on that.  :sippingcoffee:  icecreammunda

So...what is the reason we (Amritdharis) are forbidden to eat halal meat?  Is it because of the disinclination to follow the Muslim way or because of the Muslim blessing and/or the sacrificial nature of the killing?  Or is it because of the cruelty to the animal?  I think the answer to these questions would settle things.  (It won't, of course, because we Sikhs enjoy constant turmoil, but that's another topic.):swordfight-kudiyan:

As for, is it ok for (Amritdhari) Sikhs to eat kosher food other than meat?  The answer is YES.    

About kosher meat, I don't know and I really don't care.  I am a vegetarian and I have other things on my mind.  japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2011)

mai Ji..you asked..,,<<<<So...what is the reason we (Amritdharis) are forbidden to eat halal  meat?  Is it because of the disinclination to follow the Muslim way or  because of the Muslim blessing and/or the sacrificial nature of the  killing???>>>

The answer is in my last para above.

Its NOT 'disinclination..to follow the Muslim WAY..." Its becasue to the Mulsims there is NO OTHER WAY..for ALL !! IF they Rule/are in majority..they make LAWS to ensure everyone FOLLOWS their WAY....if they are in a minority..they DEMAND they be given their WAY !! No room for dissent/others ways...Guru TEG bahadur Ji gave His LIFE for Right to DISSENT..each follow his own way...Guru Gobind Singh Ji CODIFIED that RIGHT in Banning HALLAL specifically as that is ONE MAJOR WAY muslims "slaughter the right to dissent"..and GGS said NO WAY will my Sikhs be "slaughtered" !!and deprived of their RIGHTS. Thats what JHATKA is..really...a RIGHT TO BE DIFFERENT...which is DENIED by LAW in all Muslim Countries...even TODAY.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 25, 2011)

I am good to go tomorrow to have some "Kentucky Fried Chicken" (unhealthy as anything) but tasty occasionally.

I just hope that the Halal music tape got stuck when my chicken(s) was slaughtered.  I wonder if they have Halal tape inspectors at various meat processing plants  :interestedmunda:.  I never heard that production lines are shut and meat was destroyed when a tape or music player got stuck.  I feel for Muslims who ate all this Haram (non-Halal) meat.

I wonder which method the chickens prefer.  Perhaps neither as they like "Veggans".

Sorry just having some fun to see how much of rubbish logic of way way back for the three religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) falls apart under rigor of logical testing.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jul 26, 2011)

Totally off-topic but Ambarsaria ji:  in Australia, one of the biggest suppliers of chicken to supermarkets, chicken take-aways, KFC restaurants here, slaughters all their chicken the halal way.  I asked them recently by email, and followed up with an email to the Islamic Council of Australia.  The only way they can be certified is to have all Muslim slaughtermen, to use sharp knives, to be supervised properly in case any of the machinery stops working, and they must say Allah Akbar every single time a chicken has it's throat cut.

The funny part is, as much as so many "white Australians" will moan and groan about Muslims, they a) don't know their beloved chicken wings on the BBQ are halal and b) wouldn't actually care!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 26, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> I would say no.
> 
> The reason ebing is that the Sikh view would be that t is needless purification. How can you purify that which has been created by God?



The problem as I see it..people havent read SGGS !! The SGGS is the one and only Granth that sets out the BASICS from the word GO !!!
EKOANGKAAR...............and then MOOL MANTAR....draws the Image of the Akal Purakh..the GOAL that is to be achieved...aimed at..........and then 1429 pages of explanation...methodology ...personal experiences on HOW to achieve that GOAL....NO longish preambles..no beating aroudn the Bush..tall tales..wasting time...STRAIGHT TO THE POINT.

This GURBANI RUBBISHES the idea of fake "purity" sucham koshers and hallals etc etc.... The Milk is NOT "pure/sucham" becasue the calf has tasted it....the Flower is NOT "pure/sucham"..because the Butterfy/Moth has sat on it and tasted of its nectar..the HONEY is not PURE because it is REGURGITATED by the BEES ( essentially VOMIT of the Bees)....the Water is not "pure/sucham? becasue there are billions of germs bacteria etc living IN IT..everything is being CONSTANTLY RECYCLED....being CONSUMED...digested...and EXCRETED....what do you think YOGHURT is ??? .so WHAT Kosher..what Hallal ?? THese are ALL MAN MADE "restrictions"...for MEN. Nothing whatsoever to do wth the CREATOR or of any help in Achieving the GOAL of MERGER as set out in the Mool mantar !!

GURU SAHIB set out to LIBERATE US...HIS SIKHS from all such SILLY man made restrictions and set us free to FLY HIGH..but alas..we look around us..people in CHAINS..and YEARN to wear those chains around our necks..our ankles..and be FETTERED....just like Slaves !!!! Its YOUR CHOICE..to FOLLOW the GURU..or the RABBI/.....IMAM...whatever...I wont becasue i got better things to do....more importnat things than this..kosher hallal splitting of hairs, sharp knives not knicked..not this not that..all blood out or few drops not out yet..blah blah blah...what a load of rubbish that sounds so out of place in the SGGS Context....Apologies JIOS !!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 26, 2011)

HAAK PRAYA NANAKA us soor us gayeh....TO Guur nanak Ji sahib..the PORK and BEEF are not meat of the Cow or Pig..BUT the HAAK..the RIGHTS of OTHERS ...To USURP another;s RIGHTS..is equivalent to eating pork and beef respectively.........BUT "RIGHTS" are difficult..pork/beef is so easy to identify....!!!thats why everyoen rushes forward to avoid pork/beef....BUT when the RIGHTS of others are being TRAMPLED..the beef eaters and the pork consumers slink away with lowered ehads..and mutter..iTs NOT my buisness !!! GURU NANAK JI didnt slink away...he faced babar...and the Pandit and the maulvi..and called them Rajjeh Sheehn Mukaddam KUTTEH. Rulers are Lions and Judges DOGS. To defend RIGHTS of others is KOSHER and more Hallal for a SIKH than a piece of food....GURU TEG BAHADUR JI gave His HEAD for that !!!


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