# Does the Darbar Sahib, Amritsar Architecture reflect the Sikhi of Guru Nanak?



## A_seeker (Jul 15, 2019)

Last month  I visited Darbar Sahib and waiting in the line  for two hours to get inside main Darbar (point 11) just made me wonder, did our Guru  really built it in this way.

Just go through the map  look at the construction Santum (Darbar)  marked as 11 built  at the center of sarovar which hardly can accommodate 20-30 devotees.

Now look at the sarvoar marked as 12 which is made for 1000 devotees for Holy dip.

Isn't it  indicating that Sikhi practiced is  Ritualistic(Holy dips, Parikarma ,Matha Tekna to trees, etc)  rather than reflection of Nanak Enlightened Philosophy .

I looked for  *"Sikhi Sikhya Gur Vichar"- (Sikhi is the Learning and reflection of Enlightened Philosophy)*  but what i found was mystical, esoteric, ritualistic practices.

SATNAM


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## A_seeker (Jul 28, 2019)

*“ਛੱਪੜ ਕਿ ਸਰੋਵਰ” ?*

ਪੋਸਟ ਦਾ ਟਾਈਟਲ ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਸੰਦ ਨਾ ਆਵੇ ਪਰ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਦਲ ਸਕਦੀ,

ਕਦੇ ਸੋਚਿਆ ਕਿ ਲੱਗ-ਭੱਗ ਹਰ ਪਿੰਡ ਵਿੱਚ ਛੱਪੜ (ਟੋਭਾ) ਕਿਉਂ ਹੈ? ਕਈ ਵੱਡੇ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਜਾ ਕਸਬਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਤਾਂ ਦੋ-ਦੋ ਟੋਭੇ ਵੀ ਹਨ ਪਤਾ ਕਿਉਂ?

ਅੱਜ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਕੋਲ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਜਰੂਰ ਪੂਰੀ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਬਹੁਤ ਸਾਧਨ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਜੇ ਅੱਜ ਤੋਂ 40/50 ਕੁ ਸਾਲ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਤਾਂ ਹਰ ਘਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੱਗਾ ਨਲ਼ਕਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਜਰੂਰਤ ਪੂਰੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਸੀ,
ਜੇ ਹੋਰ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਤਾ ਹਰ ਪਿੰਡ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ ਸਾਂਝਾ ਹਲਟੀ ਵਾਲਾ ਖੂਹ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਸੀ ਜਿੱਥੋਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਪਿੰਡ ਦੀ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਜਰੂਰਤ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਸੀ,
ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਟੋਭੇ ਹੀ ਸਾਧਨ ਸਨ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਜਰੂਰਤ ਪੂਰੀ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ,
ਪਰ ਹੁਣ ਟੋਭਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਟੋਭੇ ਪੂਰ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ ਜਾ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਗੰਦਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਟੋਭਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ,

ਬੱਸ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਜਰੂਰਤ ਨੂੰ ਮੁੱਖ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨਾ ਨੇ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤਸਰ ਸ਼ਹਿਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ-ਇੱਕ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿਉਂ-ਜਿਉਂ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਜਰੂਰਤ ਵੱਧਦੀ ਗਈ ਛੱਪੜ ਪਟਵਾਏ ਸੀ, ਜੋ ਅੱਜ ਇਹ ਕੋਈ ਅਹਿਮੀਅਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਰੱਖਦੇ,

_*ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਅਤੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਗਿਆਨ ਹੈ,*_

ਆਓ ਹੁਣ ਹਰੀਮੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਕਰਾਮਾਤੀ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਨਾਲ ਜੁੜਦੀਆਂ ਕੁਝ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਜਿਕਰ ਕਰੀਏ ਜੋ ਇਹ ਸਿੱਧ ਕਰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਹਰੀਮੰਦਰ ਅਤੇ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਤੀਰਥ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਹੈ,

੧ - ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਮੰਦਿਰ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਤੋ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਉੱਥੇ ਇੱਕ ਛਪੜੀ ਸੀ, ਪੱਟੀ ਦੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਚੰਦ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਲੜਕੀ ਰਜਨੀ ਇੱਕ ਕੋਹੜੀ ਨਾਲ ਵਿਆਹ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਉਹ ਕੋਹੜੀ ਉਸ ਛਪੜੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹਾ ਕੇ ਠੀਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ, ਕਾਲ਼ੇ ਕਾਂ ਵੀ ਉਸ ਛਪੜੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹਾ ਕੇ ਚਿੱਦੇ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਸਨ,

੨ - ਜਦੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਰਿੜਕਿਆ ਸੀ ਉਸ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਲੇ ਸਨ, ਚੌਦ੍ਹਵਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਸੀ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਜੋ ਦੈਂਤਾਂ ਨੇ ਪੀਤੀ, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਰਤਨ ਸੀ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਜੋ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਪੀਤਾ ਸੀ, ਜੋ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਪੀਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੀਣ ਲਈ ਦੈਂਤ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਗਰ ਭੱਜ ਪਏ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਦਾ ਕੌਲ ਲੈਕੇ ਭੱਜੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਵਾਲੀ ਜਗ੍ਹਾ ਤੇ ਕੌਲੇ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਛਲਕ ਕੇ ਕੁਝ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਥੱਲੇ ਡਿਗ ਪਿਆ ਸੀ ਬਾਕੀ ਬਚਦਾ ਅਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਹਰੀਦਵਾਰ ਡੋਲ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਸੀ,

੩ - ਜਦੋਂ ਰਾਮਚੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਭਾਈ ਲਸ਼ਮਨ ਦੇ ਬੇਹੋਸ਼ ਹੋਣ ਤੇ ਹਨੂੰਮਾਨ ਪਹਾੜੀ ਚੁੱਕ ਕੇ ਲਿਆ ਰਿਹਾ ਸੀ ਉਡੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨੂੰਮਾਨ ਤੋਂ ਕੁਝ ਪਹਾੜੀ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਹਰੀਮੰਦ੍ਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਾਲੇ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਤੇ ਡਿਗ ਪਈ ਸੀ, ਉਸ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਅੱਜ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਦੁੱਖ ਠੀਕ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ,

੪ - ਸੱਤਯੁਗ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਰਿਸ਼ੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਹਰੀਮੰਦ੍ਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਾਲੇ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਤੇ ਤਪੱਸਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੀ,

੫ - ਜਦੋਂ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਦੀ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਤੇ ਹਰੀਮੰਦ੍ਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਉਸਾਰੀ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂ (ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵਤਾ) ਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਦੀ ਟੋਕਰੀ ਢੋਹ ਕੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੀ,

੬ - ਇੱਕ ਹੋਰ ਦਿਲਚਸਪ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋ ਮਸਕੀਨ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਸੁਣਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਦੀ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ ਥੱਲਿਉਂ ਇੱਕ ਮੱਟ ਨਿਕਲਿਆ ਜਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਮੱਟ ਦਾ ਢੱਕਣ ਚੁੱਕਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ ਜੋਗੀ ਦੀ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਲੱਗੀ ਹੋਈ ਸੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰਾ ਮਾਲ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰੋ ਮਾਲ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਜਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਜੋਗੀ ਦੀ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਖੁੱਲ੍ਹੀ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪੁਛਿਆ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਕਿਹੜਾ ਯੁਗ ਚੱਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦਸਿਆ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਕਲ਼ਯੁਗ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਜੋਗੀ ਨੇ ਕਿਹਾ ਮੈ ਇਸ ਮੱਟ ਵਿੱਚ ਸੱਤਯੁਗ ਦੀ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਲਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਜੋਗੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੰਤੋਖਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਸੀ ਜੋ ਬਾਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਾਈ ਸੰਤੋਖਾ ਬਣਿਆ,

ਇਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਸਟੇਜਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਸੁਣਾਈਆਂ ਜਾ ਚੁੱਕੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਸੁਣਾਈਆਂ ਜਾ ਰਹੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਡੇਰੇਦਾਰਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਬੁੱਕਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਲਿਖੀਆਂ ਪਈਆਂ ਹਨ,

ਇੱਥੋ ਇਹ ਸਿੱਧ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਅੱਜ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੁਜਾਰੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਧੰਦਾ ਚੱਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਇਹ ਛੇਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰ ਛੱਡ ਜਾਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਦ ਹੀ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋਇਆਂ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ,

ਇਹ ਧੰਦਾ ਫੈਲਾਉਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮੇਂ ਦੇ ਹਾਕਮਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਹੱਥ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਨਾਲ ਪੁਜਾਰੀ ਤੇ ਹਾਕਮ ਦੇ ਦੋ ਕੰਮ ਸਵਰਦੇ ਹਨ

ਇੱਕ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਤੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਦੇ ਚੱਕਰਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਾਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਸਵੈਸਨਮਾਨ ਖਤਮ ਕਰਨਾ ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਲੋਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਨਾ ਤੁਰ ਪੈਣ ਅਤੇ ਬਗ਼ਾਵਤ ਦੇ ਰਾਹ ਨਾ ਤੁਰ ਪੈਣ,

ਦੂਜਾ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਇੱਕੋ ਖੁੰਢ ਨਾਲ ਬੰਨਕੇ ਰੱਸਾ ਪੁਜਾਰੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥ ਰੱਖਣਾ, ਪੁਜਾਰੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਰੱਸਾ ਹਾਕਮਾਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥ ਰੱਖਣਾ ਤਾਂ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਦੋਂ ਜੀਅ ਚਾਹਵੇ ਜਿਧਰਨੂੰ ਜੀਅ ਚਾਹਵੇ ਮੋੜ ਲਿਆ ਜਾਵੇ,

ਅਖੀਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹੀ ਕਹਾਂਗਾ ਕਿ ਹਰੀਮੰਦਰ ਅਤੇ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਨਾ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੱਕਾ ਹੈ ਨਾ ਤੀਰਥ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਹੈ, ਹਰੀਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਪੁਜਾਰੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਅੱਡਾ ਹੈ,


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## Logical Sikh (Jul 29, 2019)

Im a student of Architecture in Amritsar....
Our Department has done some work on Amritsar's Walled City and Golden Temple's Architecture....
Here's the link,









						SIKH ARCHITECTURE
					

Amongst all the religions of the world, Sikhism is the youngest one. It was founded by Guru Nanak, followed by nine Gurus, who guided this religion. Sikh gurus scripted their thoughts which are incorporated in a single scripture known as Guru




					www.academia.edu


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 2, 2019)

You know I am frequently amazed at what I read on forums today and I seriously don't believe its because I am educated. 

There is no Sikhi of Guru Nanak, there is only Sikhi of the Sikh Guru's. There is also no such thing as Nanakian philosophy nor is there any such thing as as Akali Nanak Singh. These recent inventions will die as they did in the previous centuries for the Nanakpanthis and Kabirpanthis. Guru Ram Das built the temple as a central gathering place for the Sikhs of that time, the holy dip became important after the story of Bibi Rajni and her Husband who took a dip in the sarovar and was cured of his leprosy. 

The Gurbani intimates a connection to the sarovar as having miraculous powers which wipe away sins this is believed by some to be holy water but others read this as the bani itself is what does this. Either way its of no importance you can't make everyone think the same way as much as God would have made everyone the same way, he didn't so let go of fickle concerns. 

Guru Gobind Singh Ji never visited this temple even once in his life, this is not a place of pilgrimage for Sikhs. It does however house a temporal throne of authority. 

I have been to this temple many times I have noticed a serene sense of peace come over me, I have never felt that anywhere else. So for all things considered and concerned, the Guru created something excellent!


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## A_seeker (Aug 5, 2019)

Thanks for the Reply


Loveisthereason said:


> Guru Ram Das built the temple as a central gathering place for the Sikhs of that time


You mean 1000 gathering around to take a dip in the Sarovar to wash out sins,And a cramped  place which accommodate 20-30 devotees   around the SGGS  at the centre of sarovar making it a place  of worship and not a learning centre (vichaar).



Loveisthereason said:


> The Gurbani intimates a connection to the sarovar as having miraculous powers which wipe away sins


Gurbani verse on Sarovar

1. _ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਣ ਜਾਉ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ॥
Theerathh Naavan Jaao Theerathh Naam Hai ||
The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage._

(SGGS page 687 Thanasree M : 5 )

_2.Jal Kai Majan Jae Gath Hovai Nith Nith Maenadduk Naavehi ||
If salvation can be obtained by bathing in water, then what about the frog, which is always bathing in water?_

Above  verses negates your viewpoint .




Loveisthereason said:


> I have been to this temple many times I have noticed a serene sense of peace come over me, I have never felt that anywhere else.



Yes , I agree with this .But there are many non -religious places which provides this kind of peace and tranquility  like  watching a beautiful sunset. Rains in summers or listening to musics ,even going to a club and enjoying a mug of beer .SGGS is not about playing beautiful kirtan alone  but a pointer how to live a divine life which can be understood through vichaar of Shabad not through worshiping and dipping in sarovar .

Its difficult to believe someone could hear the kirtan from the centre of sarovar while sitting around the parikarma of the sarovar  in those times .


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## A_seeker (Aug 5, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> Guru Ram Das built the temple as a central gathering place for the Sikhs of that time,



The Guru built  the SAROVAR mainly to provide water to the new dwellers settling in the new city.Later the brahimns concocted the stories related to this sarovar.

My understanding is Guru RAM DAS  planned this model city  and invited experts and professional of every field  to settle in this new city. He arranged all facilites like water for drinking and bathing ,Hostels(Deras),Saran  .He created many institutes which would carry out missionary activities linking Gurus messages with sikhs .

So the the whole city became a cultural and educational centre  and not  the crammped temple at the centre of a sarovar alone as a place of gathering.


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## A_seeker (Aug 5, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> There is no Sikhi of Guru Nanak, there is only Sikhi of the Sikh Guru's. There is also no such thing as Nanakian philosophy nor is there any such thing as as Akali Nanak Singh


They are not literal meanings

Sikhi of Guru Nanak  : Sikhi of all the authors present in SGGS

Nanakian philosophy:  teachings of all the  the authors  in SGGS . Guru Nanak philosophy and kabir philosophy are not different but same .

Akali Nanak Singh:????? where did this term come from


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 5, 2019)

I disagree  and gurbani clearly states exactly in words what I was saying :

"Ramdas Sarovar Naate, Sab uttre paap kamate"

Of all the quotes you could have put this is the only one relating directly to this subject. Once again people can read this anyway they want to, either the sarovar does have miraculous powers or its the reading of gurbani itself which is transformative. I don't care either way but I will never accept new age opinion that we must look further into gurbani to negate one interpretation over the other that is cognitive dissonance. I have wanted to say that for a while as I have been reading a lot of posts here by certain intellectuals here and my fear is that they don't know that this is what they suffer from. Many times I have read an article which criticises a specific translation of gurbani, after the intellectual gives there own translation after searching through the whole of the gurbani he arrives at a translation that I understood to be correct from the original supposedly distorted translation. I then can only fathom to guess that sikhs aren't that stupid.

Do you know what "kendhar asthan" means?
It means central authoritative edifice, this is what Darbar sahib complex is referred to , do you know that Sarbat Khalsa has been held at Akal Takht where millions flooded the complex and there was no room for this it spilled out onto the streets outside the complex, the speakers installed were loud enough and when they won't be we just get bigger ones, go figure.

1000 people taking a dip at once in a very crammed place? I don't know about you but my common sense asks me to to take a dip at any place around the sarovar and guess what I have had no objection, secondly I would skip the dip until there was space or no dip at all.

Brahmins concocted stories? This is is not really worth arguing you can accept history or deny it we all pick and choose what suits our own worldview. There is is alot written on the subject and I conclude the story to be true.

For myself I have never been overcome with the feeling I get when I have been to the Darbar Sahib complex I believe that it is a sacred fortune for some I don't believe our experiences are objective.

There is a reason why SIKHI is replaced with Nanakian and as you have said the SIKHI of Guru Nanak, it is the equal opposite of the same reason Nihangs now refer to Guru Nanak as Akali Nanak Singh, one side wishes to make out that Guru Nanak is our "main" and the other wants to make Guru Gobind Singh our "main", else why would you use these terms instead of a word which already exists. So there is definitely some seperation antics at play and I will call it out when I see it. All the Gurus were the same jot that jot is now in the SGGS, the temporal aspect is in the Khalsa that is referred to as jugat. A twin doctrine which was given by the last physical guru as a formal investiture of authority and is referred to as the Cosmic play. There was a third aspect to the Guru which we are losing today and that was character, this is evident in scholarly discourse especially from diaspora and their mentality.

Have a nice day.


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## A_seeker (Aug 6, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> Once again people can read this anyway they want to, either the sarovar does have miraculous powers



This the biggest lie our clergy and granthis has embedded in our pshyhe for 200 years .it is due to mistranslations instead of understanding the real message  we end up following clergy driven sprituality path .



A_seeker said:


> Jal Kai Majan Jae Gath Hovai Nith Nith Maenadduk Naavehi ||
> If salvation can be obtained by bathing in water, then what about the frog, which is always bathing in water?



Here kabeer says if frogs cannot be saved in spite of living in water so does humans cannot expect to washed away there sins .But gullible Sikhs like you  believe otherwise in the name of Sharaddha .



Loveisthereason said:


> I disagree and gurbani clearly states exactly in words what I was saying :
> 
> "Ramdas Sarovar Naate, Sab uttre paap kamate"



If I believe the above premises ofwhat you say is true than can rapist, robbers and  murderers get forgiveness of their crimes just by dipping in the SAROVAR  and then continue their crimes? No fear of law? Isn't it.



Loveisthereason said:


> but I will never accept new age opinion


How do you define new age opinion??

What was the old age opinion?
that ..."leper was miraculously cured by bathing in sarovar"


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 6, 2019)

SIKHI has no clergy the last time I checked, I really doubt anyone else would be trying to make us intentionally dumb, logically speaking that is. This reminds me of the nonsensical argument used by feminists in the case of abortion rights, it couldn't be possible that people simply believe abortion is wrong, no it must be because powerful men want to control women's bodies, the reason why anyone would want to do that remains a mystery. 

You have changed the question where you started talking about robbers etc, the argument you put forward was that there was no basis for the claim of sarovar being miraculous based on gurbani, now your asking me we should not believe this because criminals will think they can get redemption by the dip. Please don't weaponise gurbani to suit your belief. 

Secondly In our linguistic there is no word for a murderer or rapist or robber, there are words for serial robbers, murders and rapists, chor dacoit balatkari, if someone commits an action once they are not labelled if they do it serially they are, this is because we understand the human condition that we all make mistakes, we also understand and prevent those for whom this is a lifestyle it is those people who need to be reformed. Tell me if we were to adopt your approach and the serial criminal were to read and understand your version of the real message would this still stop them from committing sin? I highly doubt it so then what is the quarrel if they think that they are redeemed by taking a dip the result would be the same in both instances, crime. Sorry to put this like this again I feel you are misguided and this is the new age thinking which fails to deliver. 

Have you ever met a psychopath? I have, the law which you prize so highly does not find any place in their psyche, crimes are thrilling for them, so tell me is it me who is gullible or you? 

Taking a quote from Kabir to justify your position is perfectly acceptable, however criticising another person's understanding based on yours is dangerous, why? Because the Gurus left their gurbani without any further interpretation for the exact reason we are having this discussion, subjective experience. To be honest you don't sound like someone who is on any spiritual path is it working for you. 

A sikhs relationship with his guru is a private matter, gurbani stirs up emotions and the soul recognises a primacy and intimacy and wakes up an individual from their bondage to their dead past. Those that try to challenge such an individual are heading for a rude awakening. I hope you can now see why your beliefs about how to practice Sikhism will never become more than a storm in a teacup. 

How would my guru put it? 

Countless discussions countless articles 
Countless seminars countless speeches 
Countless interpretations countless contraversy
Countless scholars countless schools 
Countless books countless pens
Countless frustration countless tears


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## A_seeker (Aug 6, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> SIKHI has no clergy the last time I checked, I really doubt anyone else would be trying to make us intentionally dumb, logically speaking that is.


Try to find it out with Granthi,babas,Sant in youtube you may understand .
Sikhi has no Clegy but -ism has .Maybe you were so immersed with the divinity of sarovar you missed it out in you visit.



Loveisthereason said:


> You have changed the question where you started talking about robbers etc, the argument you put forward was that there was no basis for the claim of sarovar being miraculous based on gurbani


Nothing  has changed .its  was direct logical reply to your argument with two verses from gurbani .It is you to explain what do you mean  when you quote "Ramdas Sarovar Naate, Sab uttre paap kamate "



Loveisthereason said:


> Tell me if we were to adopt your approach and the serial criminal were to read and understand your version of the real messageof the real message would this still stop them from committing sin?


If they dothan its called ENLIGHTENMENT .Its abt knowing,understanding  practicing and becoming.
Rear are those who follows this path.



Loveisthereason said:


> Have you ever met a psychopath? I have, the law which you prize so highly does not find any place in their psyche, crimes are thrilling for them, so tell me is it me who is gullible or you?



No, but If a  Psychopath becomes a enlightened being  its become  miraculous and more thrilling.But if someone believes that _Jal Kai Majan Jae Gath Hovai Nith Nith Maenadduk Naavehi || _makes a frog enlightened thats  gullible .

What all is required is intellect to understand the above verse   rather than giving long brazen assertions .

Let us not digress from the  actual question which is not about Sarovar at the moment.


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 6, 2019)

I did miss the clergy in the ism when I went to the Darbar Sahib. Do you know what clergy is? It is someone who is conferred with holy orders, I have never met one in SIKHI. A granthi is a name given to anyone who is reading to the sangat at anytime from the SGGS, this can be anyone let me repeat anyone who is reading to the sangat from the SGGS. A Baba is a name of your father's dad or a reverential prefix as too is Sant. I hope I've cleared that up for you, it is very popular to use the arguments people have in other religion's where there is a priestly class, none here.

I actually translated the verse your quoting I said it is either accepted that the sarovar has miraculous powers or it is the reading of gurbani that does this ie, reading "ramdas..."
It is also your imperative to use good spelling punctuation and grammar! How about that.

I'm really not going to bother with the rest of your response it's clear to the average reader that you digressed yourself when discussing the liklihood of a criminal using the scripture to get away with his crimes but then accused me of digressing by merely defending my position.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is clear from this discussion that logic is not equally applied. Some of us go on a desperate flight of fancy after hearing a one sided argument, certain scholars that frequently post here are leading people astray, and I have examined their articles they betray the full thrust of critical examination. The above poster wants me to believe that the sarovar having miraculous powers is ridiculous, but in the same breath anticipates that a psychopath (CLINICALLY UNTREATABLE) will become reasonable by understanding that their actions are wrong, that made me laugh.


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## A_seeker (Aug 7, 2019)

Gurbani teaches us that Creator is loving and caring so we dont need to undergo any terrath ishnan to discover or receive gifts from him.He is in his creation and all you need is to reach out path shown by the Guru .

You may find my  by hold on english grammar naive .but paradon  me for that because I don't have that luxury as you, English is not my first language . Nor I believe take a dip in a sarovar will help it improve.

Gurmat teaches us that the Creator is loving and kind so we need not undergo any teerath yatra or pilgrimage to discover Him or receive gifts from Him.Remember Guru visting Mecca and Haridwar where he demonstrated that God is within us and in everything you see.

Taking a terrath ishnaan was not the philosophy of our Gurus . If it was than there is nothing uniqueness in his teaching as taking terrath ishnaan was already in existence before him.

All the best for your Gurmat Journey!!


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 18, 2019)

This is the real issue you have with the concept of sarovar having miraculous powers, that SIKHI may be deemed non unique as the same concept may exist elsewhere. At a push a person's real intentions are revealed, intentions are not bad, however your faith is built on difference. That is not SIKHI but seperation. 

Good luck on your journey to separation


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## A_seeker (Aug 18, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> This is the real issue you have with the concept of sarovar having miraculous powers, that SIKHI may be deemed non unique as the same concept may exist elsewhere. At a push a person's real intentions are revealed, intentions are not bad, however your faith is built on difference. That is not SIKHI but seperation.
> 
> Good luck on your journey to separation



Just go through  the first pauri of JupJi Sahib  .You might  understand the_* uniqueness*_ of Sikh Philosophy.


_*Sochey Soch Na Hovayee Jey Sochee Lakh Vaar II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within me through ritualistic cleansing/ bathing/ purification at (places of
pilgrimages) even if I cleanse myself a hundred thousand times

_*Chupey Chup Na Hovayee Jey Laye Rhaan Liv Taar II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within through ritualistic practice of remaining physically silent even if I
single mindedly focus on outer silence (outer silence does not equate to inner silence)

_*Bhukiya Bhukh Na Utree Jey Banna Pureeah Bhaar II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within through ritualistic practice of eliminating desire even if I am able to
fulfill my past, present, and future desires

_*Sehes Sianpa Lakh Hohe Ta Ek Na Chale Naal II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within through religious knowledge- no matter of how high the order or
multitude; such knowledge would not support the spiritual journey of inner liberation

_*Kiv Sachiara Hoyey Kiv Kooray Tootey Paal II*_
Translation: How then can I become a God-Realized Being within; how can I remove the obstacle of my
non-realized state (my inner ignorance of Creator)

_*Hukam Rajayee Chalnaa Nanak Likhiya Naal II 1 II*_
Translation: The way to Realize the Creator within is to remain within the confines and abide in Sehej
(acceptance) of his Hukam, as contained within us


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 18, 2019)

I have read SGGS, DASAM GRANTH, SARABLOH GRANTH, the latter was harder to understand though. I am aware of the uniqueness of SIKHI not just through scriptures but through history, learned people and my own insights. 

What is unique about SIKHI? 

There are so many things unique in SIKHI:

The lesser religions and atheists talk about a god unavailable to the senses, in SIKHI creation is one of God's forms so unless you don't have your 5 senses you cannot argue that God does not exist. 

In SIKHI the Guru whilst alive took the place of a disciple and sat in the sangat whilst his successor became the next guru and gave service.

In SIKHI the Guru chose to be executed 2 times where an avenue existed whereby they could have saved themselves. 

In SIKHI the prophet never left, its function was split into the word and the body. Granth and panth. 

In SIKHI the firmness of Naam was introduced as the mainstay of all humanity. 

In SIKHI there is an initiation process and 5 articles of faith that has no replication. 

In SIKHI nature takes precedence over politics. 

In SIKHI we don't take justice though revenge but justice is carried out through karni da phal, meaning we don't do to others as they have done to us but do only to the doer or best yet instigator. 

Gurbani has a unique effect on the reader, this only occurs when reading in gurmukhi, there is a special type of arousal which lingers throughout the day, like a drug. 

SIKHI rejects canonical laws and a Sikh has their own relationship with their guru. 

SGGS contains the writings of differently religiously inclined people. 

Sikh scripture was written by the hand of the Guru, authenticated, then formally installed without any outside influence. No other prophet or holy man did this. 

Sikhism places truth before belief through experiential learning. 

Sikhism is the only religion which stresses equality not only for gender and caste but that God in sikhism caters for those who commit supposed transgressions murder rape theft demons etc. 

Our Guru's didn't just want us to reject dogma and rituals or superstition he called for an attitudinal shift in thinking whereby universalism pluralism and freedom were championed. 

SIKHI has its own system of musicology,rendering of history and culture. 

And so many more things. We live in a time where these unique qualities are deliberately blurred by vested interests who pervert their own traditions by claiming parity through self distortion. Problem is we know this is happening what if anything are we doing about it? Arguing about the miraculous property of sarovar is just self flagellation were not attacking the doers, those who corrupt their own traditions to devalue ours.


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## A_seeker (Aug 18, 2019)

You Read so many Granths but still reluctant to discuss about Gurbani .When I speak about uniqueness  ,i speak in regards to Spiritual aspect contained inside SGGS.


Glad you mentioned abt " dogma and rituals or superstition"

And still You keep referring about  miraculous property of sarovar . this understanding of yours doesn't come from SGGS directly but from sources outside SGGS .


I quoted you a verse from Jup Ji which is a direct answer to your belief system  .Now would be interested to know why do you feel there is nothing unique in this verse.


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## Loveisthereason (Aug 19, 2019)

So the original response has been edited as I have a different response in my inbox.

If you cared about gurbani and the SGGS as you have suggested you would have responded to the original quote from gurbani which relates to the topic "ramdas sarovar naate..." we can't move forward from that it’s still incumbent upon you to counterargue this, I didn't forget.

Uniqueness in terms of spirituality will always be subjective, in this regard you can also expect to get the same condition from one who's ailments were cured by the sarovar.

Please learn the difference between facts and belief, you choose to believe that a cripple doesn't start to walk after he takes a dip in the sarovar for him it's a fact, you choose to believe that blindness was not cured by the same for the blind person it's a fact as they can see.

I don't use the gurbani framework when discussing these topics, a common frame of reference is a line of enquiry and a method of choice, I prefer to look at everything.

Your quote from Jap Ji, does not provide any answers to the uniqueness question either simply because gurbani is not used to further a cause for separation, it is the effect that gurbani has on the individual, the partaking of a sovereign divine repository which is the uniqueness of gurbani itself. No other word has this effect on an individual this is a personal fact not an objective one. It becomes an objective fact when it changes the fruitful activities of the seeker. An enlightened being begins to mould reality in accordance with the inspiration they receive. That is how the gurbani effects the lives of Sikhs. Our approaches are at cross purposes.

Now I have been discussing this for a while now and there are several possibilities as to why this discussion is one sided. I say one-sided as I seem to be answering questions straightforward but I don't feel like I am being heard nor countered effectively. So this is a list of the possible reasons why this is happening :

Firstly I am speaking with someone who does not understand what I am saying but knows how to persist, that is acting in bad faith.

Secondly the person is deliberately trying to guage answers from myself for their own hidden motives, perhaps so they can answer the same questions elsewhere or because they need to be able to reject all arguments as this may be their modus operandi.

They may be an agent provocateur who's first language may or may not be English but that this is their cover, they are part of a network of people for whom this is their occupation.

The person suffers from paranoia as they have been told that using gurbani to understand all things sikhism is the only solution and therefore feels targeted by someone who has not bought into this spurious lie.

This is what happens when you don't have a sanjhi nishani, we point fingers at one another because we don't accept diversity of thought.


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## A_seeker (Sep 2, 2019)

There is nothing convincing in your arguments which makes me believe that ramdas sarovar naate literally means a place for  curative therapy .



Loveisthereason said:


> If you cared about gurbani and the SGGS as you have suggested you would have responded to the original quote from gurbani which relates to the topic "ramdas sarovar naate



I already quoted two verses from SGGS that rejects the ritualistic bathing at sarovar  for which you have not responded . So your literal understanding of "ramdas sarovar naate"  stands rejected because Gurbani never contradicts itself anywhere .We don't need outside references and CONCOCTED STORIES  to understand the meaning of shabads.




Loveisthereason said:


> Uniqueness in terms of spirituality will always be subjective, in this regard you can also expect to get the same condition from one who's ailments were cured by the sarovar.



The testimonials  like  _Bibi Rajni and her Husband who took a dip in the sarovar and was cured of his leprosy_ ....... looks profound but are not .  SGGS is not based on Testimonials claims.It is based on evidence  which is universal and not location specific.Every event whether subjective or objective should have a rational element to make it meaningful.

Every faith should be backed by evidence ,logic and reason which we find througout the SGGS. Infact the very first verse of SGGS starts with logic and reason and not blind faith alone.

With above understanding the verse below:
*Ramdhas Sarovar Nathae || Sabh Outharae Pap Kamathae ||*

would  refer to a_ bath of the soul when you immerse yourself in the company of the servants of God and thus turn over a new leaf by changing yourself._

We should read banis with a view to understand and not to find something magical .

So with all the above arguments my question(from the first thread) still remains about the  purpose of building a darbar   in the middle of the sarovar(seems for worshipping)  where only handfull  can accommodate  into and sarvoar where 1000 can bath to cleanse themselves.


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## A_seeker (Sep 2, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> I don't use the gurbani framework when discussing these topics


So does many Sikh pracharaks when they demonstrate infront of blind audiences.
Have a look at this video an example of blind faith  similar to concocted stories related to sarovars without any rational base.


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 2, 2019)

Christian apologetics are responsible for the need for a religion and it's scriptures to be logical, rational and reasoned.  Partly in due to the enlightenment period and it's implications on theology, this is how they protected themselves. However your arguments are shrivel and weak in the face of the extent of their defense on the same subjects. 

My argument is not very convincing - that is okay, if I follow your logic my argument is convincing because many people take a dip in the sarovar. So if I were now to behave as an apologetic I could say that you are guilty of the logical fallacy of Ad Populom - argument by appeal to the majority, if you then say I have done that too then you cut the branch your sitting on because your saying your own calculation is wrong because I am your opponent. 

Gurbani has no contradiction in it - not true there are many inconsistencies and contradictions in gurbani and there have been many people who have tried to defend against this, the gurbani framework that you are using is just one attempt at doing this, again this framework was never intended just adopted by those that need logic to believe. 

Your understanding and translation of my quote was very bad not much more to be said about that, as was your thinking that the quotes you provided contradicted mine. 

W. H Heisenberg defied the law of non-contradiction a very long time ago but the uneducated amongst us are still beating the logic drum. He discovered that microphysical particles did 2 things, firstly they refused to behave and give there exact coordinates at any given time, secondly they existed in 2 different forms at any given time both wave and particle. This discovery heralded the end of the claim that we lived in an age of reason.  I guess some Sikhs never got the memo.


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## sukhsingh (Sep 2, 2019)

It runs a lot deeper than the conversation here


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## A_seeker (Sep 3, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> However your arguments are shrivel and weak in the face of the extent of their defense on the same subjects.


Regarding miricales  of sarovar That's not my arguments .I have been quoting what SGGS is pointing to abt it's fruitlessness.



Loveisthereason said:


> W. H Heisenberg defied the law of non-contradiction a very long time ago but the uneducated amongst us are still beating the logic drum. He discovered that microphysical particles did 2 things, firstly they refused to behave and give there exact coordinates at any given time, secondly they existed in 2 different forms at any given time both wave and particle. This discovery heralded the end of the claim that we lived in an age of reason. I guess some Sikhs never got the memo



Using loaded words to add non existent meaning.

This is why Little knowledge is dangerous.The person reads or listens  about  a complex QM idea from someone and then try to put in their own philosophy and try to prove their point .
In this case:

Evidence for  Illogicality = Double slit experiment .


Maybe 'Common Sense is not common'


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 3, 2019)

I'm not advocating the negation of reason I'm talking about going beyond it to the realm of spirit which is what SIKHI does. The uncertainty principle or principle of indeterminacy is the impasse beyond which reason could not go in its understanding of reality. Will my comments here which are not loaded make any difference to your personal beliefs? I seriously doubt it, and by this you make my point valid that we have always and probably always will be living in an age of belief. Little knowledge isn't dangerous my ancestors say that death is the only truth, they are right and uneducated.


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## A_seeker (Sep 3, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> The uncertainty principle or principle of indeterminacy is the impasse beyond which reason could not go in its understanding of reality.


Uncertainty principle also says that what actually happening depends on where you are looking from and it doesn't say their is actual final frame or order .

Let say , I am looking at a chair from one side of the room and you looking at it from other side, two different observers but its there at one spot.

So  ,at the Macro level all the different possibilities averages out so that the physical property of large objects have some kind of sensible explanation that basically  isn't so much dependent  on what happens at micro level.

So your using this  principle for explaining at   physical observable world seems  fussy .



Loveisthereason said:


> Little knowledge isn't dangerous my ancestors say that death is the only truth, they are right and uneducated.


You have to read it in context ....


Loveisthereason said:


> Will my comments here which are not loaded make any difference to your personal beliefs? I seriously doubt it, and by this you make my point valid that we have always and probably always will be living in an age of belief.



Its  always  wise  to understand and accept   a phenomenon which are based on logic and evidence  like shown in this Gurbani verse below  which is not based on a belief , but believing that through some mantra i can delay the sun rise or magical healing of sarovar  based on bad evidence  is a ridiculous argument.

_*Sochey Soch Na Hovayee Jey Sochee Lakh Vaar II*_
He cannot be realized within me through ritualistic cleansing/ bathing/ purification at (places of
pilgrimages) even if I cleanse myself a hundred thousand times

_*Jal Kai Majan Jae Gath Hovai Nith Nith Maenadduk Naavehi ||*
If salvation can be obtained by bathing in water, then what about the frog, which is always bathing in water?_


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 3, 2019)

Your sidelining the central point of the discussion, you have said bad evidence in support of an argument is ridiculous, I agree but the problem is 2 things. I have not provided bad evidence in fact I am saying you can't prove either way. This leads on to second argument that logic and reason etc has failed where it was originally intended in the scientific worldview, it was only incorporated into religion because stupid things were written in the bible and semitic texts, sikhs never had a basis upon which to distort their teachings to fit the scientific worldview, stupid sikhs put that noose around their own necks willingly. In fact most modern Western schisms are creeping into traditions where there was no fallout. You can practice SIKHI without trying to understand scripture through any framework or lens.


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 3, 2019)

Until someone experiences divinity themselves there will never be an end to these discussions, that is the only evidence for truth.


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## sukhsingh (Sep 3, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> Until someone experiences divinity themselves there will never be an end to these discussions, that is the only evidence for truth.


Says who? 
Maybe accepting that you may not experience divinity is the Truth?


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## A_seeker (Sep 3, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> Until someone experiences divinity themselves there will never be an end to these discussions, that is the only evidence for truth.



Our Gurus have  researched it ,experienced it and gave us the evidence  in the following verse:

_*Sochey Soch Na Hovayee Jey Sochee Lakh Vaar II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within me through ritualistic cleansing/ bathing/ purification at (places of
pilgrimages) even if I cleanse myself a hundred thousand times

_*Chupey Chup Na Hovayee Jey Laye Rhaan Liv Taar II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within through ritualistic practice of remaining physically silent even if I
single mindedly focus on outer silence (outer silence does not equate to inner silence)

_*Bhukiya Bhukh Na Utree Jey Banna Pureeah Bhaar II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within through ritualistic practice of eliminating desire even if I am able to
fulfill my past, present, and future desires

_*Sehes Sianpa Lakh Hohe Ta Ek Na Chale Naal II*_
Translation: He cannot be realized within through religious knowledge- no matter of how high the order or
multitude; such knowledge would not support the spiritual journey of inner liberation

_*Kiv Sachiara Hoyey Kiv Kooray Tootey Paal II*_
Translation: How then can I become a God-Realized Being within; how can I remove the obstacle of my
non-realized state (my inner ignorance of Creator)

_*Hukam Rajayee Chalnaa Nanak Likhiya Naal II 1 II*_
Translation: The way to Realize the Creator within is to remain within the confines and abide in Sehej
(acceptance) of his Hukam, as contained within us


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 4, 2019)

A_seeker said:


> Our Gurus have  researched it ,experienced it and gave us the evidence  in the following verse:
> 
> _*Sochey Soch Na Hovayee Jey Sochee Lakh Vaar II*_
> Translation: He cannot be realized within me through ritualistic cleansing/ bathing/ purification at (places of
> ...




This translation is wrong the first line does not mention ritualistic bathing etc, sochay soch means thinking, meaning you can not get to me through thoughts. I am disturbed where you are getting your translation from. 

Regarding the individual who asked "says who" and that maybe you have to accept you will not experience divinity. Firstly how does a person who has experienced divinity convince a person who hasn't of their experience. The simple answer is that they can't. I don't like to discuss my own experiences of divinity because of this very reason, people say things like maybe you are hallucinating or you are making things up. So like I said before the only evidence of truth is experiencing the divine, that's not a belief for me. 

God or the Gurus grace is a hard thing to explain it leaves you dumbstruck and wonderstruck, all the stories people have described about that experience don't match with what happens when it occurs. You have no frame of reference so you go quiet for a while and humbled because you thought you knew, you had expectations, you also secretly believed that it was never going to happen,especially to you. You can't believe that it has happened to you because you never did all the things that a gursikh is supposed to do. 

Alot of people don't like sakhis here, I am going to mention one here because it's relevant and important. When the first Guru was in Baghdad he met Qazi Rukuddin, they had a discussion about the other worlds God has created and because the Qazi was frail, the Guru took his son to show these worlds to, the Guru brought back an offering. The importance of this sakhi is not that the Guru proved the existence of other world's but that he showed that seeking out God's grace is the imperitive of all God's creations, not just the human. This is why the mool mantar ends with Gurprasad. 

This is what I have learned.


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## Admin (Sep 4, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> This translation is wrong the first line does not mention ritualistic bathing etc, sochay soch means thinking, meaning you can not get to me through thoughts. I am disturbed where you are getting your translation from.



@Loveisthereason, please provide the source of your interpretation... 

Let us listen to this video... 





Full video: Understanding Jup Banee 8 | Dr.  Karminder Singh Dhillon


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 4, 2019)

Hi Aman, 

I watched the video as far as I could digest then stopped. I am aware of the khoj of this individual for a long time, I refrain from partaking of his lectures and articles. 

I am going to start of being respectful as I can as I don't want to get personal with this particular "scholar" or any for that matter. 

Firstly my source is my brain I translate sochay as thinking. I never understood the verse to say sochiya whenever I have read it, in my punjabi sochay alone without the iya is still thinking. Secondly you can think of thoughts numerically be it in the 100s or 1000s,i have never come across this argument that when one thinks of thoughts it is universally understood to be in the capacity of infinity. The problem here is that these arguments make fools of us by asking us to accept them as a general consensus which they are not. 

The gurbani framework is not my approach, I am content with my brain. 

This is where I now become blunt. There used to be an apologist on this forum I will initial them as J. S, for polite purposes. I clashed with this individual as I saw apologetics as a psychosis. 

Well, I see the same problem here. I know I will be unliked for this but I was brought up to speak my mind. At no point in Sikh history and tradition were we asked to haggle our verses. The scripture here is being seived in terms of its vocabulary with the premise that all words could only be used for the same purpose. This is neither a fact nor true. However it does not end there, in each instance where a word has been made to fit the general consensus asked of us, it can mean the "mistaken" interpretation if we only let go of the general consensus asked of us. 

Complicated? I'm not surprised that's why I call this too a psychosis. 

I'm sorry I don't mean to cause any offence but I find myself laughing when I listen to the Justifications and then angry with those who fall for it. If this is the Sikh hermeneutics then the "scholar" was a miraculous find 5 centuries later. 

Listen, there is a lot of good in reinterpretation and some interesting takes in this guys works I do not rule out that there is truth in some of his works. I have a big problem with the list of "go by's" before he delves into the rest of the SGGS to support his interpretation, they do not rest on a secure or sound logic. 

Think about it, he is saying Guru Nanak couldn't have referred to thought's through calculation because today we all view thoughts in terms of infinity (first lie), and to accept that the Guru would think of thoughts as calculable would mean the Guru was therefore irrational (second lie) and we can't have that because we want to show the world we're a logical religion. This is not even a scientific approach or method. This is manipulation for good intentions. 

Good night.


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## Admin (Sep 4, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> There used to be an apologist on this forum I will initial them as J. S, for polite purposes. I clashed with this individual as I saw apologetics as a psychosis.



Can you disclose your previous avatar here at SPN? So that we can know from where are you coming from! In plain English, I would call it dishonesty.



Loveisthereason said:


> Complicated? I'm not surprised that's why I call this too a psychosis.



Looks like you are in the same boat! Stop judging people and focus on the discussion.



Loveisthereason said:


> Listen, there is a lot of good in reinterpretation and some interesting takes in this guys works I do not rule out that there is truth in some of his works. I have a big problem with the list of "go by's" before he delves into the rest of the SGGS to support his interpretation, they do not rest on a secure or sound logic.



Why? A same word, having different meanings, just to serve our own concoctions, does not makes for a sound logic. This self inflicted ambiguity opens avenues for extrapolation of meanings, just like in your _*Sochey*_ interpretations.


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## Loveisthereason (Sep 5, 2019)

The last time I used my real name people kept sending me messages that I should give lectures or write a book, I'm not going down that route again I enjoy my anonymity. 

I say this with the utmost respect, my analysis of this material took alot of focus. 

The SGGS is a unique scripture in that it will never have one interpretation or meaning. What's concocted is admitted openly, the gurbani framework is the concoction as is the need for some that Gurbani fits a particular scheme of hermeneutics. Gurbani is considered a gem because it has many layers and meanings it is the deepest in its uncovering. Whether one word, a sentence or a verse, the meaning changes. It can only be understood properly in gurmukhi. 

This assault on gurbani is correctly dismissed by Sikh institutions in India and elsewhere. We will never allow our religion to adopt a totalitarian structure, the understanding gained between a Sikh and his guru is a unique aspect of sikhism, any study of scripture is merely the point of view of the individual carrying out the study. 

When a leading Islamic scholar was asked what would happen if Muslims did not pray in the direction of mecca during their prayers, he replied it would lead to chaos and disruption in the ummah. Nothing of the sort will happen, and the same is true of interpretation in sikhism. If the individual concerned allows for free thinking then he should not give his interpretation with a nod to the mistakes of previous generations. It is he who judges. 

I will only respond further if a valid counter argument is presented, or if someone is unsure and needs my support.


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## Admin (Sep 5, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> The last time I used my real name people kept sending me messages that I should give lectures or write a book, I'm not going down that route again I enjoy my anonymity.



Come on ISD (for the sake anonymity!), a person can hide his identity but not his traits...



Loveisthereason said:


> This assault on gurbani is correctly dismissed by Sikh institutions in India and elsewhere.



For the sake of clarity, which so called Sikh institutions?


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## A_seeker (Sep 6, 2019)

Loveisthereason said:


> Firstly my source is my brain I translate sochay as thinking. I never understood the verse to say sochiya whenever I have read it, in my punjabi sochay alone without the iya is still thinking.



The speaker in the video has also used his brain to describe what sochay/scoch means using logic  and gurbani framework .

Can you  describe how did you came to the conclusion using  your brain that it means thinking . Because when the source is the brain you must have used the logic to come up with that conclusion.


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## sukhsingh (Sep 6, 2019)

A_seeker said:


> The Guru built  the SAROVAR mainly to provide water to the new dwellers settling in the new city.Later the brahimns concocted the stories related to this sarovar.
> 
> My understanding is Guru RAM DAS  planned this model city  and invited experts and professional of every field  to settle in this new city. He arranged all facilites like water for drinking and bathing ,Hostels(Deras),Saran  .He created many institutes which would carry out missionary activities linking Gurus messages with sikhs .
> 
> So the the whole city became a cultural and educational centre  and not  the crammped temple at the centre of a sarovar alone as a place of gathering.


We don't know that.. 

Water has always played a very important symbolic role.. As well as the functional role


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## sukhsingh (Feb 2, 2020)

Guru Nanak, a great seer and a true son of soil! — Part II
					

Social and political consciousness is an intrinsic element of Guru Nanak’s poetic being that rejects the one...



					www.dawn.com


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## A_seeker (Mar 10, 2020)

Loveisthereason said:


> I disagree and gurbani clearly states exactly in words what I was saying :
> 
> "Ramdas Sarovar Naate, Sab uttre paap kamate"


This is the right opportunity for those who believe in literal translations of above(in quotation)  that by bathing at SAROVAR indeed *CORONAVIRUS * can be cured .


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## Logical Sikh (Mar 10, 2020)

A_seeker said:


> View attachment 20650
> 
> Last month  I visited Darbar Sahib and waiting in the line  for two hours to get inside main Darbar (point 11) just made me wonder, did our Guru  really built it in this way.
> 
> ...


about the Sarovar for 1000 people, 
Dr. Harjinder singh dilgeer writes that it was made for people to bath before entering the Sanctum because back in 16th century Amritsar was surrounded with jungles and people would get really dusty coming through all the KACHHA paths... so there was a need for them to wash themselves before entering the Sanctum Sectorum to keep it clean...
Which seems to me Faar more logical and realistic approach towards the Sarovar than some explanation given by "Sant samaaj".


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## A_seeker (Mar 10, 2020)

Logical Sikh said:


> about the Sarovar for 1000 people,
> Dr. Harjinder singh dilgeer writes that it was made for people to bath before entering the Sanctum because back in 16th century Amritsar was surrounded with jungles and people would get really dusty coming through all the KACHHA paths... so there was a need for them to wash themselves before entering the Sanctum Sectorum to keep it clean...
> Which seems to me Faar more logical and realistic approach towards the Sarovar than some explanation given by "Sant samaaj".



Dr Dilgeer even mentions in his book 'SIKH History' the quote below.



A_seeker said:


> The Guru built the SAROVAR mainly to provide water to the new dwellers settling in the new city.Later the brahimns concocted the stories related to this sarovar.


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## Sikhilove1 (Mar 10, 2020)

A_seeker said:


> View attachment 20650
> 
> Last month  I visited Darbar Sahib and waiting in the line  for two hours to get inside main Darbar (point 11) just made me wonder, did our Guru  really built it in this way.
> 
> ...



Its made well, people choose to do what they want. Washing is good for the body and people don’t need to bow to trees obviously.


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