# Mediumship And Sikhism



## Ayla (Aug 23, 2016)

I have a question regarding Mediums. First, let me explain myself. I come from a long long of family members who are "psychic" in nature, what I mean by this, is they have the ability to see spirits (ghosts and demons) and hear, feel or sense them. I am among them, and although I may want to strengthen this ability, I am wondering what the Guru says about doing this. I don't do it for money or financial gain. I do this to help people (offer comfort ect). I do not scam people, I never have and never will. But I do not want to do something that is taboo, especially since I believe I have finally found my religious home (I call it). I feel very connected and at home (comfortable or my beliefs match very strongly with Sikhi). Please help, I need advice or guidance. Thank you!!!


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Aug 23, 2016)

Ayla said:


> I have a question regarding Mediums. First, let me explain myself. I come from a long long of family members who are "psychic" in nature, what I mean by this, is they have the ability to see spirits (ghosts and demons) and hear, feel or sense them. I am among them, and although I may want to strengthen this ability, I am wondering what the Guru says about doing this. I don't do it for money or financial gain. I do this to help people (offer comfort ect). I do not scam people, I never have and never will. But I do not want to do something that is taboo, especially since I believe I have finally found my religious home (I call it). I feel very connected and at home (comfortable or my beliefs match very strongly with Sikhi). Please help, I need advice or guidance. Thank you!!!



Ayla ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sikhi does not believe in anything psychic. You, perhaps identify yourself with other things in Sikhi, as ghosts/demons/spirits have nothing to do with Sikhi. There is no connection there whatsoever.


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ayla ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Sikhi does not believe in anything psychic. You, perhaps identify yourself with other things in Sikhi, as ghosts/demons/spirits have nothing to do with Sikhi. There is no connection there whatsoever.



I am a tad confused. Guru says that there are beings such as ghosts ect. So, what I am asking is, would being a Medium as well as a (eventual) Sikh, not be advised. Or, can I pursue this, and not be discriminated against in the Sikh community (for doing mediumship).


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Aug 24, 2016)

Ayla said:


> I am a tad confused. Guru says that there are beings such as ghosts ect. So, what I am asking is, would being a Medium as well as a (eventual) Sikh, not be advised. Or, can I pursue this, and not be discriminated against in the Sikh community (for doing mediumship).



Please post the whole Shabad with your understanding regarding ghosts from SGGS, our only Guru, so we can discuss this further.

Thanks.


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Please post the whole Shabad with your understanding regarding ghosts from SGGS, our only Guru, so we can discuss this further.
> 
> Thanks.








Page 276

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਭੂਤ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਸੂਕਰ ਮ੍ਰਿਗਾਚ ॥ 
Many millions are the evil nature-spirits, ghosts, pigs and tigers.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Aug 24, 2016)

Ayla ji,

Guru Fateh.

In my opinion, one liner from the whole shabad is used as a weapon to prove one's argument rather than a tool to understand and then practice Gurbani in our lives, the Miri-Piri way of life. This is the reason I requested from you the meaning of the whole Shabad.

Firstly, Basics of Sikhi distorts Gurbani for some reason. The presenter mixes Hindu practices with the Sikhi ones. I have talked to him personally about it to no avail.

The Shabad you mentioned is talking about the beliefs of the people at that time. It is  an acknowledgement of people's beliefs. It is not an acceptance of these beliefs in Sikhi, rather to the contrary.


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ayla ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



 I see, how unfortunate that they would mix practices. How am I supposed to learn about Sikhi now? I have no gurdwaras near me or anything of that nature. So I have been using the resources I have available, and obviously it was my naivety and I got misinformed.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Aug 24, 2016)

Ayla said:


> I see, how unfortunate that they would mix practices. How am I supposed to learn about Sikhi now? I have no gurdwaras near me or anything of that nature. So I have been using the resources I have available, and obviously it was my naivety and I got misinformed.



Ayla ji,

No harm no foul.  There are many resources on the net to learn about Sikhi. If you have any particular questions like the one above, we are all here for you to help you understand the Sikhi concept which is quite simple actually.


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ayla ji,
> 
> No harm no foul.  There are many resources on the net to learn about Sikhi. If you have any particular questions like the one above, we are all here for you to help you understand the Sikhi concept which is quite simple actually.



What resources (and or youtube channels) would you recommend I start with. And back to my question, does this mean that Sikhi doesn't believe in psychics and (ultimately) it would be my choice whether or not to do this or is there another meaning to what you are trying to tell me, and I am just not understanding. Thanks for all your help!!


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Aug 24, 2016)

Ayla said:


> What resources (and or youtube channels) would you recommend I start with. And back to my question, does this mean that Sikhi doesn't believe in psychics and (ultimately) it would be my choice whether or not to do this or is there another meaning to what you are trying to tell me, and I am just not understanding. Thanks for all your help!!



One of the best resources is the one you are on, SPN. Sikhi does not believe in Psychics, Prophecies,Prophets,Fasting,Taking dips in holy waters, Pilgrimages and many more meaningless mechanical rituals waiting for miracles to happen which Sikhi does not believe in either.

This is not the Sikhi way of life to determine the unknown as known which in fact is unknowable.


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> One of the best resources is the one you are on, SPN. Sikhi does not believe in Psychics, Prophecies,Prophets,Fasting,Taking dips in holy waters, Pilgrimages and many more meaningless mechanical rituals waiting for miracles to happen which Sikhi does not believe in either.
> 
> This is not the Sikhi way of life to determine the unknown as known which in fact is unknowable.



Thanks for clarifying!  If I wanted to read books, what would you recommend and what website would you recommend, to purchase them from.


----------



## Harry Haller (Aug 24, 2016)

I come from a long line of mediums, most of my family members have been mediums, and have been successful in that pursuit. I am the only member in 4 generations not to be a medium, I am an extra large.

There are many articles and discussions here on many topics, find one and read, contribute and join in, or start a thread, through debate and discussion, we may find your answers


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 24, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> One of the best resources is the one you are on, SPN. Sikhi does not believe in Psychics, Prophecies,Prophets,Fasting,Taking dips in holy waters, Pilgrimages and many more meaningless mechanical rituals waiting for miracles to happen which Sikhi does not believe in either.
> 
> This is not the Sikhi way of life to determine the unknown as known which in fact is unknowable.



But... how do you reconcile that with the OPs actual experiences of doing those things? This member is not 'waiting' for a miracle, rather these things have manifested in their life without them actively doing anything to bring them on.

And... could there be a difference between encouraging us not to pursue those things, and those who have been given the gift to do them? Could Gurbani simply be telling us that striving to do these things just won't bring us to Waheguru quicker, but that doesn't mean these things don't happen in nature. To me, saying Sikhi 'doesn't believe in' these things, is the same as saying Sikhi doesn't believe in the sky being blue... even though you can you look out your window and see, it's obviously blue! Or is it a shade of indigo? LOL 

This has come up before on here, regarding things like out of body experiences. Now, are OBEs against Sikhi? Are OBEs considered to be 'psychic' or 'supernatural' or..... could these things just be actual natural abilities, part of nature, and a normal thing in the Universe.... when we look at the fact that everything is actually connected? That means there is no 'magic' or 'supernatural' about it! 

As far as ghosts, spirits etc. Since our existence is on multiple levels, I truly believe that some part of us (as the individual) exists after death for awhile (etheric). Gurbani even speaks about the silver cord at some point that so many have mentioned in near death experiences. And I can play for you a recording from an answering machine, a message left by someone 2 days AFTER they died! I still have the recording. It was proven as much as possible to not be a hoax. It happened in my own family, the phone company confirmed no actual call was made to the home at the time of the message, meaning someone at the house had to have used the memo function. But... nobody was home, and it was his voice. 

Just because we can't explain something, doesn't mean it's magick. It just means we have not yet understood the science behind it. Doesn't mean it's not real. I think Gurbani is more saying we don't NEED to do these things to progress spiritually. But it's not that same as saying they don't exist, which I think is damaging. Can you imagine if Gurbani said that Gravity was not real? So maybe in another 50-100 years we will prove that ghosts are just what's left over of the consciousness after leaving the body? (quantum physics is already stating that our consciousness exists in a quantum state... that is OUTSIDE our body and can be transferred to somewhere other than our body).


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> But... how do you reconcile that with the OPs actual experiences of doing those things? This member is not 'waiting' for a miracle, rather these things have manifested in their life without them actively doing anything to bring them on.
> 
> And... could there be a difference between encouraging us not to pursue those things, and those who have been given the gift to do them? Could Gurbani simply be telling us that striving to do these things just won't bring us to Waheguru quicker, but that doesn't mean these things don't happen in nature. To me, saying Sikhi 'doesn't believe in' these things, is the same as saying Sikhi doesn't believe in the sky being blue... even though you can you look out your window and see, it's obviously blue! Or is it a shade of indigo? LOL
> 
> ...



Thank you, you have expressed what I have been trying to say, exactly! For me, I have been a medium since I was very young, its not like I was waiting for a miracle or accident that would make me a medium. It just was something that happened to me, regardless or whether or not I wanted it. I have had too many experiences to say that the things I have seen, aren't true or are real. They are, and if they are and Vaheguru has given me this gift, I want to use it, to help people (and ghosts cross over and find Vaheguru)!

I just simply wanted to know, if this type of work was taboo and frowned upon. I wanted to know what the Guru said about people who do this. To me, as long as guru says "Hey, I created you and have given you this gift, use it with my blessing" then I will. But if it says otherwise, than I won't.


----------



## Ishna (Aug 24, 2016)

Sikh Rehat Maryada Article XVI (d) seems pretty extensive about the things Sikhs aren't supposed to do or believe in.  No horoscopes, clairvoyants, omens, magic, spells, incantations, rituals for the dead, no seers, soothsayers, oracles.  It seems counterintuitive that the SRM would prohibit all these things yet be OK with mediums and talking to dead people when you're not even supposed to erect a tombstone or cremation memorial.

Plenty of people have all sorts of spiritual experiences.  Not sure how anyone can keep from descending into a well of cognitive dissonance by believing all of them are real.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 24, 2016)

Ishna said:


> Sikh Rehat Maryada Article XVI (d) seems pretty extensive about the things Sikhs aren't supposed to do or believe in.  No horoscopes, clairvoyants, omens, magic, spells, incantations, rituals for the dead, no seers, soothsayers, oracles.  It seems counterintuitive that the SRM would prohibit all these things yet be OK with mediums and talking to dead people when you're not even supposed to erect a tombstone or cremation memorial.
> 
> Plenty of people have all sorts of spiritual experiences.  Not sure how anyone can keep from descending into a well of cognitive dissonance by believing all of them are real.



Where you and I differ is in the definition of 'magic' etc. To you spiritual experiences are magic or hokey... The word supernatural makes them sound like fairy tales. What if these things instead are NATURAL abilities?? Just because we can't explain them yet doesn't mean they are not real. 

And even then, we are starting to glimpse these things. If the base of the universe is nonphysical and the physical is created by conscious observation, then why can't experiences that originate from the nonphysical be real?? And yes it's been proven that conscious observation does affect the physical reality. In fact the results of the experiments showing small can be reproduced over and over again. 

So to me these things that happen to people are not something magical or supernatural. But instead I see them as natural things just another part of our weird and wonderful existence. 

Just like the OP, I never asked for out of body experiences. They just happened. Also when you experience it its kind of hard to not believe in it lol. And I know they were not hallucinations or just a dream etc. I actually wrote a book on OBEs and included all the angles from the sceptics and why those things can't be accounting for all these experiences. 

For example with OBEs one suggestion has been that they are product of REM sleep and dreams.... But experiments by Dr Charles Tart using EEG concluded although OBEs can happen in REam, they can also happen in any other brain state meaning they can also happen when the brain is not considered to be dreaming. This means the dream theory holds no water. 

Other refuted theories include OBEs being result of oxygen deprivation as in clinical death - in that case an NDE, however not all OBEs occur while the heart has stopped not even when the brain is deprived of oxygen at all. 

For those who witnessed their surgery from outside the body (and there are MANY cases which have great details in the accounts! Things people couldn't know beforehand like what the surgeons were saying etc) it was suggested that again it was just dreams etc but general anesthetic is known to suppress REM. 

So just because we can't explain how something happens doesn't mean it is not real. Gurbani is only saying to not actively search these things out because they will be a distraction from the ultimate goal of merging with creator. It doesn't say they are not real. It says don't believe in these things as a means to bring you closer to God.


----------



## Ayla (Aug 24, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Where you and I differ is in the definition of 'magic' etc. To you spiritual experiences are magic or hokey... The word supernatural makes them sound like fairy tales. What if these things instead are NATURAL abilities?? Just because we can't explain them yet doesn't mean they are not real.
> 
> And even then, we are starting to glimpse these things. If the base of the universe is nonphysical and the physical is created by conscious observation, then why can't experiences that originate from the nonphysical be real?? And yes it's been proven that conscious observation does affect the physical reality. In fact the results of the experiments showing small can be reproduced over and over again.
> 
> ...



So, as far as you, I and Guru are concerned. As long as I am honest and just helping others, but not using mediumship as a means to get closer to God, Its ok? I'm just trying to understand. And what is this Sikh Rehet Mariada, Please forgive the spelling.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 24, 2016)

Ayla said:


> So, as far as you, I and Guru are concerned. As long as I am honest and just helping others, but not using mediumship as a means to get closer to God, Its ok? I'm just trying to understand. And what is this Sikh Rehet Mariada, Please forgive the spelling.



Basically imagine you are on a path towards some amazing garden, but along the way, you notice some pretty flowers. You stop to smell those flowers and then you decide to go back home again. The next time you try to go to the amazing garden, you again are sidetracked by the beauty of the flowers you find on the way. If you keep being sidetracked by those flowers, you will never arrive at your intended destination. Same thing, these abilities (which some don't believe are real because we have only mostly subjective evidence - though quantum physics is starting to prove at least the possibility of them!) But these abilities, which are spiritual in nature, should not distract us otherwise we will be so taken in by the experience of them, that we forget we are on a path to go very much further than that! Usually spiritually advanced people will have some sort of ability or intuition etc however those abilities and experiences are not our end goal, and to put too much focus on them will detract us from our real goal which is liberation from cycle of births and deaths (some on here also believe birth and death means just states of mind and not actual birth and death - I believe that since consciousness IS the basis of the Universe, and as such thought... then they actually are right in a sense   But they actually mean the limited consciousness living in duality) but our ultimate goal is breaking away from this illusion of reality and merging back with Waheguru.

You will find two main groups of belief on here:

1. Those who interpret Gurbani to only be speaking of the physical world, and no belief in anything spiritual (or not caring about the spiritual). They see all mention of spiritual topics to be pointing to just another 'state of mind' or psychology. 

2. Those who interpret Gurbani to be speaking about our soul and spiritual journey towards Waheguru.


----------



## Ishna (Aug 24, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Where you and I differ is in the definition of 'magic' etc. To you spiritual experiences are magic or hokey... The word supernatural makes them sound like fairy tales. What if these things instead are NATURAL abilities?? Just because we can't explain them yet doesn't mean they are not real.
> 
> And even then, we are starting to glimpse these things. If the base of the universe is nonphysical and the physical is created by conscious observation, then why can't experiences that originate from the nonphysical be real?? And yes it's been proven that conscious observation does affect the physical reality. In fact the results of the experiments showing small can be reproduced over and over again.
> 
> ...



Don't tell this to me, tell it to the Akal Takht.  It's their SRM telling you not to buy into it, not me.  How do you reconcile your supernatural beliefs with what the SRM tells you to think in this regard?

I might also point out that one can have a spiritual life without also holding supernatural beliefs.

Also, if we are already ONE with Waheguru, what exactly do you mean by 'journey towards Waheguru'??


----------



## Ishna (Aug 24, 2016)

Ayla said:


> So, as far as you, I and Guru are concerned. As long as I am honest and just helping others, but not using mediumship as a means to get closer to God, Its ok? I'm just trying to understand. And what is this Sikh Rehet Mariada, Please forgive the spelling.



The Sikh Rehat Maryada is the official Code of Conduct of Sikhs, issued by the Sikh central religious authority.  You can read it in English at the link I posted earlier.  It details the daily life of a Sikh, Sikh ceremonies, taboos and beliefs, etc.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 24, 2016)

Ishna said:


> Don't tell this to me, tell it to the Akal Takht.  It's their SRM telling you not to buy into it, not me.  How do you reconcile your supernatural beliefs with what the SRM tells you to think in this regard?
> 
> I might also point out that one can have a spiritual life without also holding supernatural beliefs.
> 
> Also, if we are already ONE with Waheguru, what exactly do you mean by 'journey towards Waheguru'??



I actually explained this before... We never left so we are not actually going anywhere. Rather we have a very persistent amnesia.

Also I said I don't believe my understanding of the universe is in any way supernatural... Especially with quantum physics pointing at the material world being an illusion. To me they are just natural abilities and follow with the natural makeup of he universe. As I said at one time gravity would have been considered supernatural. Hey at one time if you suggested the world wasn't flat you'd be flayed lol We just have not yet advanced science enough to explain it. But that doesn't make something supernatural.  If consciousness can affect the material universe (and that IS proven currently by science) but only recently in history the idea would have been seen as supernatural. But it's not...


----------



## Ishna (Aug 24, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> I actually explained this before... We never left so we are not actually going anywhere. Rather we have a very persistent amnesia.



Oh okay, I don't see it in your earlier posts.  I just wanted to draw that out a little for the OP since they're new and may not have their head around the whole panentheistic immanent Waheguru thing yet that can be so foreign to some newcomers.



> Also I said I don't believe my understanding of the universe is in any way supernatural... Especially with quantum physics pointing at the material world being an illusion.



Fascinating!  I suppose you don't have to call your own beliefs supernatural if you see evidence explaining the things you believe in as functioning within natural laws.  I think for most of us, though, it's at least right on the edge of acceptable mainstream scientific knowledge.  I think it's good practice to base my own beliefs on as many demonstrably true things as possible.  Until more research is conducted around that bleeding edge of science, I will be sceptical of such claims so I don't get led up the garden path.  Ultimately everyone is free to believe what they like.... however my next question:

Leaving aside the word 'supernatural' then... what do you think about the SRM's rejection of the things I listed earlier?  What do you think they are trying to achieve by that massive paragraph?  Do you believe in magic although the SRM tells you not to?

[I seriously edited my post a little while after posting it.  sorry about that.]


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 24, 2016)

Ishna said:


> Oh okay, I must have missed that in your earlier post.  I just wanted to draw that out a little for the OP since they're new and may not have their head around the whole panentheistic immanent Waheguru thing yet that can be so foreign to some newcomers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am trying to pull it up on my iPhone and having trouble with the PDF online but the English translation has some things in error. For one, the original does not say anything about a wife having to 'serve' the husband in the anand Karaj part. The English does... Obviously someone wanted to push that idea but the original wording was different and didn't imply the wife was in any way beneath the husband.

I wanted to pull up the exact English text of that part though. But for what I remember it doesn't say those Things don't exist rather it instructs to not partake in them. But I could be wrong. But I want to run it by Balbir Ji to get the original Punjabi meaning to be sure. He is Sikh Missionary Trained so I trust his interpretation. And he knows about my experiences and doesn't discount them as being not real... nor has he ever said that somehow I am cursed because OBEs happened without my looking for them to happen. 
In the case of the OP they are not looking to contact spirits. But these things are happening anyway. To tell someone that 1) their experience must be not real because hey 'I' never experienced it and science can't prove it and 2) it's against Sikhi to do it (when they have no control over it happening) I don't think that can help. Rather we should try to understand and even if we can't... We have to acknowledge that at this point in our development as a species, we still have MUCH to learn about how the universe works! Therefore there must exist things which at his time we can't explain. We should however know enough to admit that just because we can't explain it yet doesn't make it not real. It just means we have not advanced enough In science. But we are continuing every day to understand more and more. Until a couple years ago, Higgs Bosun particles were unproven and now we know how matter gets its weight. We can't change the experiments that have proven subatomic particles which make up every atom in our bodies and everything in the known universe... Can either behave as a wave of a particle... Depending on whether there is a conscious observer. A conscious observer collapses the wave function. Meaning conscious observation causes it to be a particle. But if even our brains are made of those same particles... Who exactly is observing us into existence??? Since we ourselves can affect mater in this very real way, our consciousness must exist outside of the material world, in a quantum state. This so far IS science... Now if our consciousness exists somewhere outside the physical realm, then why couldn't abilities like telepathy etc exist, when we consider that time and space are parts of this construct only... They only pertain to the physical reality.  Want proof from science? Look up spooky action from a distance (coined by Einstein) where particles separated by any distance even across a galaxy can become entangled so that what affects one, affects the other. This also is science.  So what I am saying is just don't take what we currently know about the universe and think that's all there is. We have so much more to discover!


----------



## Ishna (Aug 25, 2016)

Cool, when you find out more about the SRM around that clause I referenced earlier, please do let me know.

Also, you can't be cursed, because curses don't exist either


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 25, 2016)

Ishna said:


> Cool, when you find out more about the SRM around that clause I referenced earlier, please do let me know.
> 
> Also, you can't be cursed, because curses don't exist either



Haha u know what I meant... figure of speech for someone speaking ill of someone as in cussing haha


----------



## swarn bains (Aug 25, 2016)

I did not read much of it, but it is an interesting subject. one thing that if you are psychic and yet you are a bit scared. In order to become so is just a bit of concentration which some have by birth the others acquire by concentration or by meditation. it is generally to get into someone else's mind or get into the same wave length as the other person thinks. It has nothing to do with godliness. I saw a line about rehat maryada. it is just a code of conduct to follow in order to keep the followers in line with their thinking. It is a social guide or a slogan.All those who answer your question  i only see one who  follows rehat maryada. You are doubtful about your ability to get ahead in spiritual life. The SGGS does have complete guidance to become divine but most of us cannot comprehend it or follow and act on it. I have read most of the religious scriptures and all of them try to catch the ear with opposite hand but SGGS is direct. This is a  semi godly and social network. There is not much to learn about godliness here.


----------



## Original (Aug 25, 2016)

Ayla said:


> I have a question regarding Mediums. First, let me explain myself. I come from a long long of family members who are "psychic" in nature, what I mean by this, is they have the ability to see spirits (ghosts and demons) and hear, feel or sense them. I am among them, and although I may want to strengthen this ability, I am wondering what the Guru says about doing this. I don't do it for money or financial gain. I do this to help people (offer comfort ect). I do not scam people, I never have and never will. But I do not want to do something that is taboo, especially since I believe I have finally found my religious home (I call it). I feel very connected and at home (comfortable or my beliefs match very strongly with Sikhi). Please help, I need advice or guidance. Thank you!!!


Dear Ayla

If you had said pigs fly, I'd believe ya, but to tell me you communicate with the dead, I'll have to have you incapacitated for treatment [Mental Health Act  2007 [UK] ].To deem communicating with the dead an *ability,* is not just diabolical, but complete and utter nonsense. More of a *disability* if you ask me, and as for affiliation with Sikhism - yeah, right ! stone age times probably. 

I'm sorry for being blunt, but the Lunatics Act 1845, explicitly stipulates severe condemnation of those who indulge in such weird practices. Hope you get well and revisit, in the mean time I'd request the Senate at SPN to offer prayers in lieu of you getting well soon !

No offence intended !

Goodbye


----------



## Ishna (Aug 25, 2016)

My mum has spent so much money on mediums, clairvoyants, psychics, fortune tellers, etc.  I've grown up surrounded by astrology, numerology, magic, etc.  I've been at one time in my life a Wiccan where magic and all the like are central.  I've learned about occult practices and engaged in a couple in my time.  I've seen some strange stuff, I've "felt" strange stuff.

However, that has all fallen away, because I've found no truth there.  What I see, is people taking other people's money and giving them little in return.

Today, my mum is constantly going on about angels, spirit guides, omens, luck, messages from the dead... but she is a lonely woman alienating her family and trying desperately to find a place to live.  It has not brought her one ounce of actual, real positive effect.

So, my experiences tell me that this stuff is best left alone.  It's fruits are small and frequently bitter.  There are more tangible things that can be done to help people, here and now, to deal with their grief, etc.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 25, 2016)

Ishna Ji, agreed. One should not go looking for these things. But... what about those who these things just 'happen' to? I had no control over OBEs. I couldn't stop them if I wanted to... so my only option was to realize they were not 'evil' nor 'dangerous' and I was ALWAYS ok, and they gave me realization that I am MORE than my physical body. That is huge! Realizing without a doubt that I will continue on long after this physical life is done. I dont see anything negative in that! It makes me appreciate why I am here. To break through the illusion and realize my true origin. That realization in turn, causes me to do everything I can to help others because I have realized everything and everyone are ONE. Just as easily someone who experienced telepathy can make the same realizations... But I agree we should not take the flowers for the garden. We will miss the larger goal!


----------



## Harry Haller (Aug 26, 2016)

Original said:


> Dear Ayla
> 
> If you had said pigs fly, I'd believe ya, but to tell me you communicate with the dead, I'll have to have you incapacitated for treatment [Mental Health Act  2007 [UK] ].To deem communicating with the dead an *ability,* is not just diabolical, but complete and utter nonsense. More of a *disability* if you ask me, and as for affiliation with Sikhism - yeah, right ! stone age times probably.
> 
> ...



We should try and respect all points of view surely, even those we do not agree with


----------



## Original (Aug 26, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> We should try and respect all points of view surely, even those we do not agree with


I agree, provided there are no overriding considerations. The case to hand is one of capacity and as such, I'm obliged to comment on the inconsistency with Sikh belief and value. However, a tact on my part to nip it in the bud before it finds favour amongst fertile minds was to that end and not to be disrespectful. Sometime you have to be cruel to be kind.

All in all, I'm delighted with your softly softly approach. Harry the hound is sound as a pound !

Take care


----------



## Harry Haller (Aug 26, 2016)

Original said:


> However, a tact on my part to nip it in the bud before it finds favour amongst fertile minds was to that end and not to be disrespectful



This is a free forum with little censorship, I think people can make up their own minds, fertile or not 



Original said:


> All in all, I'm delighted with your softly softly approach. Harry the hound is sound as a pound !



how delighted? I've run out of samosas..

in any case, back to topic


----------



## Original (Aug 26, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> his is a free forum with little censorship, I think people can make up their own minds, fertile or not


On the whole, this is a Sikh forum that has a legal obligation not to "misrepresent" Sikh faith and practice. You can't be talking  Predator v Godzilla on account free speech on a licence that was granted for selling liquor. And hence the reason why lawful censorship is a legal requirement with which the host must comply. For example,  "Harry's Fish n Chip" shop cannot be trading elephants and camals to local zoos. The appropriate Licencing Authority has specific jurisdictions within which lawful conformance is a statutory requirement. Similarly, organisations such as SPN have objects within which they must fulfil their legal obligations, one of which is "censorship". Equally, the freedom of expression in a democratic society must also be balanced to accommodate human rights and in so doing the law is fairly well relaxed, insofar, a margin of appreciation is extended to the host organisation to set up local laws [bylaws] for operational requirements and to meet the objects of its founding principles. 

As for people making their own minds, yes, I very much encourage that kind of attitude, but equally, am I reminded of the moral and legal indebtedness with which one is obliged to discharge in accord with perfect virtue. Ayla's case is one of moral virtue and I've only cited an opinion based on Sikh belief and value. Take for example, you and your respected wife having a picnic in a nearby park by the lake,and then, all of a sudden you see a child fall into the lake, what would you do ? Legally you are not obliged to save the child, but morally ......?

In advising Ayla, albeit, rather harshly, I've acted out of moralising consequence both to align personal and religious compass.


----------



## Harry Haller (Aug 26, 2016)

Original said:


> On the whole, this is a Sikh forum that has a legal obligation not to "misrepresent" Sikh faith and practice. You can't be talking  Predator v Godzilla on account free speech on a licence that was granted for selling liquor. And hence the reason why lawful censorship is a legal requirement with which the host must comply. For example,  "Harry's Fish n Chip" shop cannot be trading elephants and camals to local zoos. The appropriate Licencing Authority has specific jurisdictions within which lawful conformance is a statutory requirement. Similarly, organisations such as SPN have objects within which they must fulfil their legal obligations, one of which is "censorship". Equally, the freedom of expression in a democratic society must also be balanced to accommodate human rights and in so doing the law is fairly well relaxed, insofar, a margin of appreciation is extended to the host organisation to set up local laws [bylaws] for operational requirements and to meet the objects of its founding principles.
> 
> As for people making their own minds, yes, I very much encourage that kind of attitude, but equally, am I reminded of the moral and legal indebtedness with which one is obliged to discharge in accord with perfect virtue. Ayla's case is one of moral virtue and I've only cited an opinion based on Sikh belief and value. Take for example, you and your respected wife having a picnic in a nearby park by the lake,and then, all of a sudden you see a child fall into the lake, what would you do ? Legally you are not obliged to save the child, but morally ......?
> 
> In advising Ayla, albeit, rather harshly, I've acted out of moralising consequence both to align personal and religious compass.



Originalji

how you 'advise' people is of course your own business, I do not find your post below to be any sort of advice, actually, threatening to section someone because they have beliefs different to you is quite offensive.



Original said:


> If you had said pigs fly, I'd believe ya, but to tell me you communicate with the dead, I'll have to have you incapacitated for treatment [Mental Health Act 2007 [UK] ].To deem communicating with the dead an *ability,* is not just diabolical, but complete and utter nonsense. More of a *disability* if you ask me, and as for affiliation with Sikhism - yeah, right ! stone age times probably.
> 
> I'm sorry for being blunt, but the Lunatics Act 1845, explicitly stipulates severe condemnation of those who indulge in such weird practices. Hope you get well and revisit, in the mean time I'd request the Senate at SPN to offer prayers in lieu of you getting well soon !



trying to then justify it with the above post only works against you, as you have violated your own terms with what you have written. You may actually find it gets deleted due to TOS.

Please allow the OP to continue without any further harassment, if you have points to make, I know you have the eloquence to make them . If you have further queries on the law and the forum, kindly address them to Admin Singh rather than cluttering up a thread.

If you have a reply to this post please PM it to me so we can continue in private

If we may now continue with the topic


----------



## Original (Aug 26, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> I had no control over OBEs


..these'll be your soul excursions and not mental expeditions.  Primary organs engaged in these activities are the heart and the mind, respectively. On rare occasions when the soul is out of the body, you're able to experience the "anhad shabd" and in some instances, the soul gravitates towards the source of the sound helplessly, just as the flux is pulled by the magnet, so too is the soul pulled by the sound.The experiencer [meaning you] will know the difference between soul travel and mental activity of the mind.


----------



## Original (Aug 26, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Originalji
> 
> how you 'advise' people is of course your own business, I do not find your post below to be any sort of advice, actually, threatening to section someone because they have beliefs different to you is quite offensive.
> 
> ...


Sir

I don't think I've offended, threatened or behaved unlawfully, but if you deem me liable, I offer my apologies unreservedly !

Goodnight and Godbless


----------

