# Meditation On God's Help



## il_sikh (Apr 14, 2006)

WJKK, WJKF!

I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God. But I'm just wondering _how_ is that actually done? Is it like other eastern faiths (like Buddhism, Jainism), sitting and reciting Waheguru over and over, or is there more to it? _How_ do we, as Sikhs, meditate on God? I realise being conciously aware of what you're doing, being calm, etc. is required. But what else? I apologise if a lot of that is redundant. Thanks for your help,

Justin
royalphillie@hotmail.com


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## drkhalsa (Apr 19, 2006)

Dear Friend 

Here is the very informative article outlining the basic method of meditation that can be done by sikh

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-philosophy/7936-spirtual-experience-ofnaam-simran.html


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## simpy (Apr 20, 2006)

il_sikh said:
			
		

> WJKK, WJKF!
> 
> I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God. But I'm just wondering _how_ is that actually done? Is it like other eastern faiths (like Buddhism, Jainism), sitting and reciting Waheguru over and over, or is there more to it? _How_ do we, as Sikhs, meditate on God? I realise being conciously aware of what you're doing, being calm, etc. is required. But what else? I apologise if a lot of that is redundant. Thanks for your help,
> 
> ...


 

Respected Justin Ji, 

*First thing that you need to reach salvation is the desire to achieve it, and now as you have it, you will definately find your way to it.* 

There is no right or the best way to meditate. Everybody is different. And what make us different is our past and present karmas(this life and previous lives), and based on that we develop a belief system of our own. First thing is that you must start, using whichever way. In this world there is a lot of literature you can find written on the ways to meditate. I suggest pray for it and you will find the one best for your lifestyle, you may find somebody who can assist you, and also listen to your inner voice, just give it a try.

Most important thing is, alongwith meditation, you must develop an *unshakable faith* in the Guru/God(gur parmesvar aeko jaan/Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One), and *unconditional love* for Him. Your *mind has to be fixed on Him* and Him alone.

Once you start on this path with complete faith and devotion and one pointedness, Guru/God helps you in mysterious ways. 

ausqiq mn mih kir inrMkwr ]
kir mn myry siq ibauhwr ]
inrml rsnw AMimRqu pIau ]
sdw suhylw kir lyih jIau ]
nYnhu pyKu Twkur kw rMgu ]
swDsMig ibnsY sB sMgu ]
*crn clau mwrig goibMd ]*
*imtih pwp jpIAY hir ibMd ]*
kr hir krm sRvin hir kQw ]
hir drgh nwnk aUjl mQw ]2]
Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-Page 281

It all depends on what your mind does, dear. If you can control that wandering mind and fix it on the LORD, nothing can stop you.


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## Rajwinder (May 5, 2006)

I think two things are combined here :

1. If u just sit and concentrate following any method then ur mind get nourished. If ur mind is nourished then the whole body is nourished u can get rid of many problems related to different part of body.

2. When u are concentrating then why not praise the GOD or remember him ?

I think in Sikhism these two things are combined to get benefits both Logically and religiously .


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## Archived_Member16 (May 5, 2006)

TEACHINGS OF BABA NAND SINGH JI OF NANAKSAR 

*He (Baba Nand Singh Ji of Nanksar) unfolded the Supreme grandeur of Sri Guru Granth Sahib splendidly and glorified the eternal Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the living Guru Nanak magnificently. Blessing of Sri Guru Granth Sahib was supreme and He advised everyone to invoke that blessing by completing one path of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in a month in the following manner: *


*Complete recitation of the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in a month. *

*Complete 50 paths of Sri Sukhmani Sahib in a month; recite 2 paths of Sri Sukhmani Sahib daily. *

*Complete 250 paths of Jap Ji Sahib in a month; recite 10 paths of Jap Ji Sahib daily. *

*Complete 180 Malas (Rosary Mala of 108 beads) of Mool Mantra (from Ekonkar to Nanak Hosi Bhi Such) in a month; do six malas daily. 

Complete 80 Malas daily of Gur Mantar 'Waheguru'; 20 Malas of Waheguru if the Nam is recited four times on each bead. 

Complete 160 Malas daily of Ram (Nam); 40 Malas if Ram is recited four times on each bead (for Hindus) 

A Mohammedan was advised to practice and recite the name of Allah on each bead as above. *

Hundreds of crores of Sri Guru Granth Sahib's paths were thus distributed as the most blessed Parshad to millions of devotees in His life time and are continuing uninterrupted since then. 

He, thus, brought the supreme blessing of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the living Sri Guru Nanak Sahib within easy comprehension, reach and grasp of everyone, educated, uneducated, lettered, unlettered, literate, illiterate and simple village folks. Every one recited Amrit Nam and sang the glory of Sri Guru Nanak Sahib in this simple and easy way. 

That was the grand purpose behind His holy advent. Uniqueness and greatness of the Eternal Glory of Sri Guru Granth Sahib was unveiled in its totality. The precious treasure of Lord's Name was thrown open to all. It was so simple, easily understandable within the grasp and practice of simple village folk. He freely distributed this Dargahi ticket destined for Sach Khand. 

Though He physically disappeared in August 1943 from this earthly scene, He perennially flows as Eternal presence in this very Dargahi Ticket given as Prashad by Him. Lakhs of refugees from either side during the partition of 1947 experienced the miraculous power of this Dargahi ticket, Dargahi Name with the Eternal presence of the Saviour Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj, and were saved. Such was the unique power of Nam He distributed. 

In possession of this unique Prashad, Divine Ticket, they passed through the most dreaded naked dance of death, but not a single person blessed with this celestial ticket could be injured or harmed or died an unnatural death. 

All Glory to Mahan Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj. 

Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj thus blessed millions with unique Prashad of the Lord. Unique Prashad of redeeming Gur Mantar, Mul Mantar, Japji, Sukhmani Sahib, Ram Nam and in addition the paths of Bhagwat Gita and Holy Quran Sharif were distributed as Parshad to Hindus and Muslims in same congregations. 

Nam was not the privilege of a selected few. It was open to all It was distributed freely to everyone without any consideration of caste, religion and creed. 

By thus propagating the Gospel of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Lakhs of illiterate, simple and plain-hearted villagers were able to feel and experience the spiritual satisfaction of attaining the Grace of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Babaji had thus brought lofty ideals of personal service and worship of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and resultant spiritual attainment within the immediate reach and grasp of millions of completely illiterate folk. Only those who practice, know how wonderful and rewarding this spiritual Sadhana is! 

SOURCE: http://www.babanandsinghsahib.org/maryada/dargahiticket.htm


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## Archived_member2 (May 5, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Justin Ji asked "I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God. But I'm just wondering how is that actually done?"

I am also wondering how people meditate on God. 

Let us suppose they know God. Is meditation still needed?

Presuming they do not know God, how meditation on God is possible?

**************

Soul Jyot Ji has referred to an article written by someone.

I am not sure if they understand Baba Nand Singh Ji in reality. In my view, Baba Nand Singh Ji would have never advised Sikhs to do things which the Gurus did not suggest.

Did the Gurus ever suggest Sikhs to recite Sri Guru Granth Sahib, complete 50 paths of Sri Sukhmani Sahib or 250 paths of Jap Ji Sahib in a month? The same is with reciting two paths of Sri Sukhmani Sahib or 10 paths of Jap Ji Sahib daily?

With my best efforts I could not find one instance where the Gurus suggested us a Rosary-Mala of 108 beads a prerequisite to recite any Naam.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (May 8, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> 
> Justin Ji asked "I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God. But I'm just wondering how is that actually done?"
> 
> ...


 

Respected Balbir Singh Ji,

I know there is no proof of this use of numerology anywhere in Sikhism, still a lot of people are doing it. And they recommend it as well.

I used to wonder about this as well. So I actually ,did my research on it. What I understand (I may not be all correct) is that these number methods are based on the calculation of total letters and words used in a particular Bani or in total in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

I have found that the number of stanzas/letters/words in any bani are very closely related to the Tantric Numerology. e.g. Siri Sukhmani Sahib Ji: 24 Astpaddies, refer to 24 hours of the day, Total number of pages in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji adds up to 11(1+4+3+3=11) that is supposidely a complete number in numerology.... and so on. Based on these things people have made their own ways of doing things, Like if total number of words in a certain number of a particular bani is total to the words in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji; they consider both similar, so in their opinion you can do either, the effect will be the same. 

Now the phylosophy behind reciting a Bani certain number of times, or reciting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to my understanding should be- converting your mind's direction towards Guru/God. If that is happening by doing it using a certain numerology, it is fine; as long as the performer is not indulged in the numbers, one is actually understanding what one is reciting and then, following the teachings of Guru Sahib Ji in the real life.

The nature of human mind is that it has to be taught a certain thing for a number of times as well as for a period of time, everybody's calliber is different. That is the main reason why Guru Sahib Ji has to tell us over and over again on every page about Naam Simran, God's Praises, Examples and what not. The same things are taught to us over and over again, right from the begining to the end in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is done so that we can actually understand and get rid of the duality from our minds.

Same thing is about Nitnem. People recite different Bani at different times of the day, without even knowing what is the meaning of Bani. It is just because somebody told them to do so. But if fortunately the performer understands what he/she is reading and actually live it, does not matter what time the Bani is being read.


In my opinion if this number phylosophy or time phylosophy can *make you sit and recite Bani, and it is actually igniting the contemplation of Bani in your mind, and finally leading you to live accordingly*, it is not bad. But if you are only indulged in lip-reading, it is not going to take you anywhere, does not matter you do it by counting or otherwise.


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## Lionchild (May 8, 2006)

il_sikh said:
			
		

> WJKK, WJKF!
> 
> I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God. But I'm just wondering _how_ is that actually done? Is it like other eastern faiths (like Buddhism, Jainism), sitting and reciting Waheguru over and over, or is there more to it? _How_ do we, as Sikhs, meditate on God? I realise being conciously aware of what you're doing, being calm, etc. is required. But what else? I apologise if a lot of that is redundant. Thanks for your help,
> 
> ...



you still havnt answered my emails justin, your blog also needs to be updated.

sorry, just had to ask...


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## Archived_member2 (May 9, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Cheema Ji!

You wrote "Siri Sukhmani Sahib Ji: 24 Astpaddies, refer to 24 hours of the day"

Still, I did not come across a person doing Paath of Sri Sukhmani Sahib Ji for twenty-four hours of the day. Nor he or she promises to do it for twenty four or (two+four) six times.

Numbers and numerology may be like the worldly religions and theology. Neither counting nor studying that one has ever reached Truth.

Gurdev is singing in ecstasy "kayti-aa ganat nahee veechaar." Japu Ji Sahib - SGGS Ang 5  
So many count. They do not contemplate.

Another wonderful Vaak from Guru Raam Daas Ji is this.

"ganat ganai so jalai sansaaraa."
One, who counts, burns (suffers) in the world.

"sahsaa mool na chukai vikaaraa."
Spontaneously from roots imperfections do not finish.

"gurmukh hovai so ganat chukaa-ay sachay sach samaa-idaa." SGGS Ang 1062
One, who turns to Gurmukh, finishes counting, truly merges in Truth.

You wrote "In my opinion if this number phylosophy or time phylosophy can make you sit and recite Bani, and it is actually igniting the contemplation of Bani in your mind, and finally leading you to live accordingly, it is not bad."

The Gurus never suggested us to do Simran counting it.

Perhaps a human being, who spends whole life counting materials, cannot get rid of numbers while searching Truth.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 9, 2006)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
piyarae balbir singh ji,
i agree with you.

secondly i am not sure when the followers of nand singh follow his numbers....are they "meditating" on the NUMBERS or the Gurbani ?? one cannot possibly keep proper count if not paying attention to 1,2,3,4,5 etc..and then there is not compete attention to Gurbani because its flow is interrupted by 1,2,3,4...50 OK STOP !!

Guru ramdass Jia sks us to SAT SAT kar manee...we MUST follow the TEACHINGS of GURBANI as SAT in our LIFE....not wastetime "counting"...leave that to mathematicians/staticians...or just IDLE MINDS who have nothing better to do than count..the TREES while other EAT the fruits

Jarnail Singh gyani


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## simpy (May 9, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Surinder Cheema Ji!
> 
> You wrote "Siri Sukhmani Sahib Ji: 24 Astpaddies, refer to 24 hours of the day"
> ...


 

Respected Veer Balbir Singh Ji,

As I said before I may be wrong. I used to wonder about this as well. But then I tried to find out why people say they use it and does it really work. My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani. If they believe only in Numerology, it may bring some material benefits for them as they are the ones who do it more like lip-reading, there is no spiritual uplift of any kind.

There is neither only one religion in this world nor only one belief. So if something works for a person to start on a rightous path, I do not think it is bad. Take the example of Bhagat Dhanna: Guru Sahib has not recomended Murti Puja anywhere, but his mention is there in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We all know that he did stone worship, BUT WITH ONE POINTEDNESS, and was enlightened. Again, I am not recomending stone worship. It all depends how the person percieves things, once he/she is actually starting to follow Guru's teachings. 

Take the example of Bhumian chor, he was not ready to stop stealing but he was so truthful to Guru's word and actually did all what Guru Sahib told him to do. 

One poitedness is all that matters. Once a person is so lost in what Guru is saying, i tell you nothing else remains. Any body from any religion, one who is a realized person, will not denounce any phylosophy that can put you to a start. 

Guru Sahib when talks about ginti ganana and all that, is bewaring us not to get lost into such practices. There are so many people who use the nitnem schedules, how many are the realized souls out of them. Main reason is that they are lost in completing their nitnem everyday, that is all, there is no concentration on what is being read. Exactly same is with number idiology, you get lost in numbers you are lost.

*Bani is so powerfull veerji, it turns the toughest around. These numbers and these nitnem styles loose their power once bani reaches into rom rom, provided it is done with one pointedness.*


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## Archived_Member16 (May 9, 2006)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> Respected Veer Balbir Singh Ji,
> 
> As I said before I may be wrong. I used to wonder about this as well. But then I tried to find out why people say they use it and does it really work. My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani. If they believe only in Numerology, it may bring some material benefits for them as they are the ones who do it more like lip-reading, there is no spiritual uplift of any kind.
> 
> ...


 
*Respected Bhanji Surinder:*

*I totally subscribe to your views. Only an evolved & enlightened spiritual soul / Mahapurkh, who has done "Naam de Kamai", can truly coach & guide us like a genuine teacher - from personal experience. Others can just talk about it from academic point of view only. WALKING & TALKING the spiritual path are two different issues!*

*With Devine Love & Blessings.*

*Harbhajan S. Sangha*


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## Archived_member2 (May 9, 2006)

Pray truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Cheema Ji!

You wrote "My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani."

I do not know if God has a measuring scale. I feel His Grace just showers. 

You also wrote "One poitedness is all that matters."

Please provide a reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

Some people are busy with different numbers hoping to reach one-pointedness on a lucky day.

Your sentence "Guru Sahib when talks about ginti ganana and all that, is bewaring us not to get lost into such practices" has impressed me.

**************

Harbhajan S. Sangha Ji!

You wrote "Only an evolved & enlightened spiritual soul / Mahapurkh, who has done "Naam de Kamai", can truly coach & guide us like a genuine teacher - from personal experience."

I hope you have come to know ONE.

You wrote further "Others can just talk about it from academic point of view only. WALKING & TALKING the spiritual path are two different issues!"

The art of living is not coming to know many of them.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (May 10, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Pray truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Surinder Cheema Ji!
> 
> You wrote "My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani."
> ...


 


I simply do not want to know what you mean by the measuring tape concept. All I know that any thing works if it is done with strong belief. 

And having a strong belief is the most difficult attribute to achieve. To bring this in your heart and mind, you never know what is going to work. Sometimes a person needs only one small incidence that triggers the belief, in some cases it is a book, sometimes it could be something that happened to somebody else; there are endless possibilities. How God’s power is going to work, a common mind cannot perceive.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Teg Bahadur Ji says:

gj kI qRws imtI iCnhU mih jb hI rwmu bKwno ]
The elephant's fear was taken away in an instant, as soon as he chanted the Lord's Name.

nwrd khq sunq DR¨A bwirk Bjn mwih lptwno ]
Listening to Naarad's teachings, the child Dhroo was absorbed in deep meditation. 


Yes His Grace just showers. But it happens only when Sadhak reaches a certain point, a state of mind. But to get to that point(iCn) lots of sacrifices are needed. The path to that point of time is not easy. So many are struggling to reach there using unlimited means. But again you have to follow the Guru with FULL FAITH. No devotion No achievement.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji says:
rwm rwm sBu ko khY kihAY rwmu n hoie ]

Everyone chants the Lord's Name, Raam, Raam; but just by chanting, the Lord is not obtained.

SGGS Page 491


Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Ram Das Ji says:
syvk isK pUjx siB Awvih siB gwvih hir hir aUqm bwnI ]
All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Lord, Har, Har. 

gwivAw suixAw iqn kw hir Qwie pwvY ijn siqgur kI AwigAw siq siq kir mwnI ]1]
Their singing and listening is approved by the Lord; they accept the Order of the True Guru as True, totally True. SSGS Page 669

Again He says:
hir dir iqn kI aUqm bwq hY sMqhu hir kQw ijn jnhu jwnI ] 
They alone are praised in the Court of the Lord, O Saints, who know and understand the Lord's sermon. 
Page 669







			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> You also wrote "One poitedness is all that matters."
> 
> Please provide a reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.


 

One pointedness- I do not think you understood what I meant by it, because it is mentioned in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji many many times. It is the sustained attention towards the Almighty. Or it can be said the focusing of our attention on God ceaselessly. Or un-splitted concentration….One Pointedness is the attribute that is most important on the Spiritual path.


Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji says:
iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
With one-pointed mind, meditate on the One Lord, by doing so all the doubts of your mind will be dispelled. SGGS Page 46

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji says:

ey mn hir jI iDAwie qU iek min iek iciq Bwie ]
O mind, meditate on the Dear Lord, with single-minded conscious concentration. SSGS Page 653

Dhan Dhan Bhatt Bhikha Ji saya:
sic scu jwxIAY iek icqih ilv lwvY ]
In truth, the True Lord is recognized and realized, when one is lovingly attuned to Him, with one-pointed consciousness. SGGS Page 1395


A lot has been said about the controlling of our wandering mind: what else does it mean to you other than one pointedness. Like:

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji says:
Dwvq mnu rwKY iek Twie ]
Keep your wandering mind restrained in one place. SGGS Page 299

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji says:
mnUAw n folY gurmuiK bUJY Dwvqu vrij rhwey ]
His mind does not waver; as Gurmukh, he understands. He restrains it from wandering out. SGGS Page 1012



A lot of devotion is needed on this path. Guru Ji says



hau KVI inhwlI pMDu mqu mUM sjxu Awvey ]
I stand by the side of the road, waiting for You; O my Friend, I hope that You will come.

ko Awix imlwvY Aju mY ipru myil imlwvey ]
If only someone would come today and unite me in Union with my Beloved.

hau jIau krI iqs ivtau cau KMnIAY jo mY iprI idKwvey ]
I would cut my living body into four pieces for anyone who shows me my Beloved.

nwnk hir hoie dieAwlu qW guru pUrw mylwvey ]5]
O Nanak, when the Lord becomes merciful, then He leads us to meet the Perfect Guru. 

ijnI siqguru mMinAW hau iqn ky lwgau pwie ]
I touch the feet of those who believe in and obey the True Guru.

nwnku qw kw dwsu hY ij Anidnu rhY ilv lwie ]6]

Nanak is the slave of those who, night and day, remain lovingly attuned to the Lord. 

Then:
BweI ry mIqu krhu pRBu soie ]
O Siblings of Destiny, make God your Friend.

Then:
sdw sdw AwrwDIAY idnu ivsrhu nhI rwiq ]3]
Forever and ever, worship and adore Him. Day and night, do not forget Him. ||3||

Then:
dyKY suxY hdUir sd Git Git bRhmu rivMdu ]
Seeing and hearing, He is always close at hand. In each and every heart, God is pervading.


This path is not that easy as it sounds to many. You have surrender totally by body and mind; and burn your ego:

*qnu mnu kwit kwit sBu ArpI ivic AgnI Awpu jlweI ]*

*I Alologise if it is hurting your faith but this is all Guru's teachings. Also I apologise if any double negatives of mine confused anybody. It only meant that we should not get lost in countings. If it made you laugh at me that is great, at least you laughed.*


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## Archived_member2 (May 10, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Ji!

Thanks for referring wonderful Vaaks from the Gurus. Your first reference about one-pointedness is this.

iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]

The conforming line before this Vaak is here. 

ijsu pyKq iklivK ihrih min qin hovY sWiq ]
"jis paykhat kilvikh hireh man tan hovai saaNt."
Watching that sins vanish from mind, body comes to rest.

iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
"ik man ayk Dhi-aa-ee-ai man kee laahi bharaaNt." SGGS Ang 47-4
Peerless mind meditates ONE dispelling doubt of mind.

In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). The peerless state of mind is the result of it, not the one-pointedness that matters all.

Let us come to your next example ey mn hir jI iDAwie qU iek min iek iciq Bwie ]

Guru Amar Das Ji is again praising here the contemplation on Hari that pleases mind and intellect.

Surprising is your suggestion to reach iek min iek iciq by one-pointedness of the mind (iek min iek iciq). It is something like asking someone to touch the tip of an index finger with the same tip.

**************

I am hearty thankful for your company on this forum and extending the great Satsang.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 11, 2006)

Gurfateh
Das thinks that bro is trying to say that Akal isalready in mind?


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## simpy (May 11, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
> "ik man ayk Dhi-aa-ee-ai man kee laahi bharaaNt." SGGS Ang 47-4
> Peerless mind meditates ONE dispelling doubt of mind.
> 
> In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). The peerless state of mind is the result of it, not the one-pointedness that matters all.


 
Respected Veer Balbir Singh Ji,

With due respect, Jis paykhat-Seeing God: Now can you tell me how can you see/feel God without any one pointed struggle - Devotion to One and only One, Meditation on One and only One, Surrender to One and only One, Vairaag for One and only One.......


ijsu pyKq iklivK ihrih, min qin hovY sWiq ] iek min eyku iDAweIAy mn kI lwih BrWiq ] 
The translation that you are doing is not that way: It simply says By seeing *Whom*, your sins are eradicated and your mind and body comes to peace; you should do *His Simran* by stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God). Real Simran can only be done by placing your mind on one God. Yes Mental Peace comes after God Realization.


Yes it happens with God's grace only, but His grace comes with some effort of the human mind. As Guru Sahib says: 

mn qUM joiq srUpu hY Awpxw mUlu pCwxu ]

If it was supposed to just happen, Guru Sahib or other Prophets did not have to go through all, and did not have to leave us with Bani da Khazana and all that. 


Without residing under Guru/God's shelter with unshakable faith nothing happens. This is one pointed devotion. 

I know Veer Balbir Singh Ji, you are still not going to agree with this. But this is the truth. This is posted for those who are looking for the right translations.


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## simpy (May 11, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> Das thinks that bro is trying to say that Akal isalready in mind?


 
Respected Ceer Vijaydeep Singh Ji,

Yes Akal is already in mind. But the translations he is doing are not correct at all. 
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/0047.html


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## simpy (May 11, 2006)

Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Angad Dev Ji says 
ijsu pyKq iklivK ihrih, min qin hovY sWiq ] iek min eyku iDAweIAy mn kI lwih BrWiq ] SGGS Page 47
 
By seeing Whom(God), your sins are eradicated and your mind and body comes to peace; you should do His Simran by stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God), by doing His Simran with one pointed Devotion(through mn and surq) all your doudts will be removed.


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## Archived_member2 (May 11, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Ji!

Some understand Guru's words 'Jis paykhat' seeing God. This would explain that One sees God first and then by seeing God, he reaches one-pointedness.
This is contradictory to that what one writes, i.e., we need one-pointedness first to see God. God is not 'Jis' in any language, also among enlightened persons.

This is a good query  "Now can you tell me how can you see/feel God without any one pointed struggle" 

One does not realize God by one-pointed struggle. One realizes God by True Simran received by the Grace of HIM through the Satguru. Devotion, Meditation, Surrendering and Vairaag are its out turns.

Quote "you should do His Simran by stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God)."

I hope we remember the Guru's words "sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar." SGGS Ang 1

Simran is not being busy stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God).

Quote "Yes Mental Peace comes after God Realization."

I feel Mental Peace comes along with True Simran.

Quote "Yes it happens with God's grace only, but His grace comes with some effort of the human mind."

It looks like ego is still trying to play hide and seek game. Without some effort of the human mind how is it possible for ego to win God.

This is interesting to read this "If it was supposed to just happen, Guru Sahib or other Prophets did not have to go through all, and did not have to leave us with Bani da Khazana and all that."

I have seen millions of people carrying a tap under the arm and wondering why they are thirsty.

Quote "Without residing under Guru/God's shelter with unshakable faith nothing happens. This is one pointed devotion."

Please do not leave HIS Shelter, one-pointed devotion and let your faith shake. However, let people come to know God first.

I have often heard preachers reaching one-pointedness to realize God. I will enjoy knowing whose mind has ever followed a preacher.


Balbir Singh


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## rosethorne (May 11, 2006)

Dear Gursikhs, I really don't know about Baba Nand Singh ji, May he had the Darshan of Waheguru or not. But surely He divided sikhs by giving his points of meditation. Waheguru can be achieved but with pure heart, pure deeds. and this is purely on Akal's selection only, that who willbe the person or persons to achieve that. No debates here can lead us to Sachkhand. Only a true devotee can achieve it. No body who can argue but not understanding other's views cann't achieve it. No brain, no logics no money, not even any material is able to find Waheguru. Find the truth in yourself with the kirpa of SGGSJI maharaj, only the way to achieve Sachkhand. 



shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ] ikv sicAwrw
hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]



WJKK WJKF

​


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## simpy (May 11, 2006)

rosethorne said:
			
		

> Dear Gursikhs, I really don't know about Baba Nand Singh ji, May he had the Darshan of Waheguru or not. But surely He divided sikhs by giving his points of meditation. Waheguru can be achieved but with pure heart, pure deeds. and this is purely on Akal's selection only, that who willbe the person or persons to achieve that. No debates here can lead us to Sachkhand. Only a true devotee can achieve it. No body who can argue but not understanding other's views cann't achieve it. No brain, no logics no money, not even any material is able to find Waheguru. Find the truth in yourself with the kirpa of SGGSJI maharaj, only the way to achieve Sachkhand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Respected RosethorneJi,

You are right about the fact that no debate is going to take anybody to Sachkhand.

Contemplation of Bani with others is also necessary and fruitful, especially for the ignorant. Otherwise some body can be misled big time by some wrong translators.


About Mahapurakhs, no comments.


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## snavneet (May 12, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.  

In short, here are my comments on this topic. If somebody takes interest then maybe we can discuss further. 



> il_sikh: I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God.


snavneet: There is no way of meditating on God directly. Godliness is a state that we realize if our meditation is complete and acceptable to God. At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God. We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc. The purpose of meditation is to first help us to realize the essence of God within us (Self-realization) and then to realize the same essence in everything else too (God-realization). Meditation ultimately leads us to Samadhi. Samadhi is a state of complete relaxation. In this state, the mind ceases control and what prevails is pure consciousness in full awareness. A state of Union with God, with the whole of existence. Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness. It begins with concentration and focus, and ends in the deepest form of relaxation, peace and bliss. In God, we find rest for eternity. Everything that we "do" requires effort and everything that God wills, happens effortlessly. In Union with God, we become like God. Hence, meditation begins with effort and ends in a state of effortlessness. 



> il_sikh: But I'm just wondering _how_ is that actually done? Is it like other eastern faiths (like Buddhism, Jainism), sitting and reciting Waheguru over and over, or is there more to it? _How_ do we, as Sikhs, meditate on God? I realise being conciously aware of what you're doing, being calm, etc. is required. But what else?


snavneet: At the shallow end of meditation, you will find many ways and techniques. At the deeper end, you will find that all forms of meditation practiced by people from different spiritual backgrounds, are essentially the same. In Sikhism, the most accepted way to meditate is Sumiran, which involves recitation (Jaap) of the Naam. The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. Oral Jaap helps to pacify the minds processes. As long as our minds control our lives, we cannot reach the state of egolessness, which precedes Union with God. Our minds are the walls that separate us from God. We have to become masters of our minds. Gurbani says, "Man Jeetai Jag Jeet", we have to win over our minds and we will come out winners in life, the whole of existence would be our reward! Oral Jaap is followed by Mindful Jaap. In this stage, the mind co-operates a lot more than in the first one. The Jaap is no longer Oral, but it becomes subtler. The mind does the Jaap. Most of the grosser distractions of the mind vanish when one matures in this stage. The third stage is that of Ajapaa Jaap and this is a gift from the Guru. Here there is no effort put in by the meditator, but yet one hears the Jaap taking place within oneself. One realizes that it had always been there, but was veiled by the processes of the mind. One realizes that this Unstruck Melody of the Ajapaa Jaap pervades the whole of Creation. The Ajapaa Jaap puts us in a state of infinite bliss. This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself! 

Dear il_sikh ji, we may discuss this in more detail if you wish. Simply put, meditation is a technique that helps us to put our true self (soul) in the driver's seat of our lives. Once this happens, God's Will (Hukam) dawns upon us in its perfect resplendence. Then our minds are no longer in control. We live by God's Will alone. 

In this thread, i have seen the sangat debating on the idea of one-pointedness of the mind while practicing meditation et al. Here are my views. 
The idea of one-pointed devotion towards the realization of God Union has been mentioned many times in Gurbani, in many different ways. Instead of quoting many lines from Gurbani and mixing up everything, we should take it up, one line at a time, and try to reach a consensus. 

For example, take this stanza from *Ang 295* of *Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji*: 

*Guru Arjan Dev Ji* tells us, 
"*Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, *
*Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet.*" 

Simply put, it means, 
"*Praise the Lord, o saints, o friends, *
*Beware, do it with one-pointed consciousness.*" 

This same line was taken up and explained beautifully by the late Gyaani Maskeen Singh Ji to elucidate the idea of one-pointed devotion. 
Now, anyone who would want to argue about the etymology of the last 3 words in that stanza would try to find new meanings for the words "Ekaagar" and "Cheet". But i am sure, that the meaning cannot be twisted enough to mean anything else. "Ekaagar" definitely means "bringing together into one", "integrating into one", "uniting into a functioning whole", "desegregating", "assembling into one", "fitting together into one" and one can go on and on! But in simple language, it can be termed as 'one-pointedness'. And "Cheet" simply means consciousness. Our mind is the splitting up of our consciousness. So, on the one hand we might be singing praises of God and on the other hand we could be thinking of our business, our family, etc. So, our focus is never on one act or one thought. The Cheet is broken up into a countless pieces. Guruji tells us to put some effort in atleast bringing it together while singing the praises of the Lord. Since ordinary waking consciousness is totally consumed by the mind, which splits the 'Cheet' into many pieces, Guruji warns us (Saavdhaan) to bring together the wandering fragments of our mind and devote them totally to one act, which is that of praising the Lord. 

I hope this helps a bit!


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## Archived_member2 (May 12, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for the good post.
All songs praising God are melodious but recognizing HIM is the happening and a great blessing.

The explanation given is "The third stage is that of Ajapaa Jaap and this is a gift from the Guru." 
May I ask why this third stage is the gift of the Guru?

It continued further "This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God."
Please explain. Is only this Ajapaa Jaap the True Name of God? Where is the place of the Guru during the Ajapaa Jaap?

This explanation is pleasant "Simply put, meditation is a technique that helps us to put our true self (soul) in the driver's seat of our lives. Once this happens, God's Will (Hukam) dawns upon us in its perfect resplendence. Then our minds are no longer in control."
I have a question. Is mind not within God's Hukum before one comes to know a technique of meditation? Please continue this Satsang.

You referred the wonderful Vaak from Guru Arjan Dev Ji from the Sukhmani Sahib.
"Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, 
Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-16

One may appreciate reaching this state of 'Ekaagar Cheet.' True 'Ustat' of Prabh becomes possible.
Some may ask. How does it work? The answer is in the next great Vaak from Gurdev.

"sukhmanee sahj gobind gun naam."
The spontaneous jewel of joy is Gobind's virtuous Naam.

Not once the Gurus have suggested starting with the technique of one-pointedness to discipline the mind.

Ekaagar Cheet is the result of True Simran. Simran is the gift from God through the Guru right from the first stage.

A thirsty person from the first sip recognizes the virtue of water, not from its third sip.


Balbir Singh


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## snavneet (May 13, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.  

I will try to be as simple and concise as possible. 



> snavneet: "The third stage is that of Ajapaa Jaap and this is a gift from the Guru."
> Balbir Ji: May I ask why this third stage is the gift of the Guru?


 
snavneet: Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. Guruji says, "Ek Omkar Satnam". Simply put, it means, "Om is One, it resonates forever, it is the true Name of God". This is where Japji Sahib begins. Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. Once we are ready, we hear it. But the Guru decides whether we are ready or not. A Satguru is someone who lives completely by God's Will (Hukam), so it doesn't matter whether we say that 'it is a gift from the Guru' or 'a gift from God', since the Guru will bestow the blessing of the 'Anhad Dhun of Ek Omkar' only if God wills it. God's will and the Satguru's will are one and the same. Now, let's get closer to your question. Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. This is made clear by Bhai Gurdaas Ji when He tells us the following: "*Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai*". And this is such a simple and profound statement! You make effort towards your Guru which may be equal to taking 'one step' and He will take '10 million steps' towards you. So, some effort is definitely required from our side, even if it is as small as taking 'one step'. Real progress is made when the Guru takes '10 million steps' towards us. So, our effort may be miniscule, but real progress is made when the Guru comes closer to us. Our role is only to that effect, the role of 'Udham'. At every stage, we make progress only because the Guru finds our tiny bit of effort to be worthwhile. That's the reason why getting salvation without a Satguru may take us ages to realize and very rarely is someone born who is ready to take up this toughest of missions. Imagine how much time it would take for us to reach the door of salvation, if the Guru didn't bring it so close to us with each step. Hence, the importance of a Guru. Anyway, there comes a point in one's spiritual evolution where one reaches 'the door', beyond which one can find salvation. But at that point, we cannot force the door to open for us, how much ever effort we may put in. In fact we have to be infinitely patient at that time. The opening of the door is entirely in the hands of the Guru. Hence, our entry through the door is entirely left to the Guru's judgment. If the Satguru finds us ready for entry, He bestows the blessing upon us so that we may enter. It is entirely left to His discretion. So, in all the previous stages, some of our tiny effort, 'to walk towards the door', may have been involved, but at the final stage, we cannot make any more effort from our side. Guru's Will (Hukam) is entirely responsible for the opening of the door. This door is the Dasvaan Dwaar (Tenth Door) that Gurbani speaks of. Hence, i mentioned that the third stage comes as a gift from the Guru. Balbir ji, i hope i have been able to make it clear for you this time. 



> snavneet: "This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God."
> Balbir Ji: Please explain. Is only this Ajapaa Jaap the True Name of God? Where is the place of the Guru during the Ajapaa Jaap?


 
snavneet: I think i have already answered this above, but i will add something to what i said before. Guruji says, "Ek Omkar Satnam", which means that, "Om is One, it resonates forever, it is the true Name of God". The word "Satnam" means the "True Name". The word "Ek" before Omkar tells us that there is only "One" true name. The "kar" after "Om" indicates that it resonates forever. And what is that "one true name that resonates forever"? It is "Om". Guruji has already answered your first question in the first 3 words of His Baani. If you don't believe me yet then i request you to meditate on it until the meaning dawns upon you because there is no way to justify this with words. Let it come out of your own experience and then nobody will have to convince you about it. Now, to the other question. The place of the Guru during the Ajapaa Jaap is in God! To be more precise, the Guru is already One with God, He is always in God. How could His place ever change? Once you reach that finality, you will be one with God and Guru too. I think this answers your second question. 



> snavneet: "Simply put, meditation is a technique that helps us to put our true self (soul) in the driver's seat of our lives. Once this happens, God's Will (Hukam) dawns upon us in its perfect resplendence. Then our minds are no longer in control."
> Balbir Ji: I have a question. Is mind not within God's Hukum before one comes to know a technique of meditation? Please continue this Satsang.


 
snavneet: Everything is within God's Hukam all the time. Salvation is realizing this Hukam in its entirety. What can we add to God's Creation? Whatever we add is simply derived from His raw material. Nothing that we make is made by us. We just manipulate what is already given to us. Consider the principle of conservation of energy. It says that we cannot create or destroy energy. If we can't even do that, what can we do! Since whatever we do is within God's laws, within His system, everything is essentially within His Hukam. But, there is a big 'But' in between! And that 'But' is our mind, our ego, which makes us feel that we can do something apart from what God has already done. This is the root cause of our separation from God, this feeling that we can do something that is beyond God's Hukam. And the Hukam applies to meditation too. When we meditate, we practice it within His Creation using the resources that He has given us. What extra have we added to it? Nothing at all. We try to 'focus our minds', 'sing His praises', 'do Sumiran', 'do Keertan', 'do Paatth', etc. because that is possible within His Hukam. In fact, even the ones who have denied God and salvation entirely, cannot override His Hukam, even though they do not accept its existence. The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs. And those who are ready to follow what the Guru says are Gurmukhs. Basically, however corrupt one may become, one still cannot override the Hukam. We will always remain within the boundaries of the Hukam. Hence, one is always redeemable. God never loses His patience on us. We may wander for countless lives via our egoistic escapades, but some day our patience will run out and we will turn back and we will find that the Sun was always shining behind our backs. 



> Balbir ji: You referred the wonderful Vaak from Guru Arjan Dev Ji from the Sukhmani Sahib.
> "*Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, *
> *Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet.*" SGGS Ang 295-16
> 
> ...


 
snavneet: You will have to try to understand something very basic over here. "Ekaagrata" refers to concentration. It refers to focus and one-pointedness. I am sure you agree to that. Your previous reply clearly indicates that you believe that one reaches this state of "Ekaagar Cheet" or "One-pointedness of the mind" through Sumiran and not before that, isn't it? Okay, tell me, in order to achieve anything worthwhile in life, doesn't one have to focus on some thought and then act accordingly? If you are not focused then how will you be able to achieve anything more than what your instinct makes you do? "Ekaagrata" has had a great role to play in whatever you have achieved as a person. The more focused you become on a task, the more is the probability of you becoming successful in achieving the desired result. Imagine where you would be now if you had not focused on your studies or so many other things for that matter. In fact, even instinct can just tell you what to do, in the end some bit of focus is needed from you in order to initiate and then complete the act. Instinct can inform you that your stomach is empty and that you need to eat food. But you may still choose not to eat. Even that needs focus! Because your instinct will keep pressing you for your body's need of food, but to suppress it you will have to focus on the act of suppression! In fact, eating food when one is hungry requires less focus than trying not to eat at that time! My point is that nothing can be achieved in life, without being focused, without being almost one-pointed. And, in this thread we are talking of 'realization of the truth', which is most profound. And you think that truth can be achieved without one-pointedness? Why will the Guru grant you salvation if your mind was thinking of money, family, fame, etc. while your lips were doing Sumiran? Do you think the Guru is counting your utterances of Waheguru to see when you cross some required threshold? Is He interested in numbers or in your devotion? What does it mean to be devoted to one's Guru? Doesn't it mean that one should remain focused on what the Guru says and act according to it? If you cannot be focused ("Ekaagrit") on your Guru's instructions, how will you follow your Guru? How then can you expect the Guru to grant you salvation? Should the Guru grant us salvation even if our minds are wandering the whole world while our lips are uttering "Waheguru" like a machine? In fact, if "Ekaagrata" is something that is achieved as a result of the simple act of Sumiran without one-pointedness then i think machines are better capable than us in doing Sumiran. In fact, computers can do Sumiran without getting distracted. But you know that machines can't realize God simply because they are not conscious, they are not aware! Machines are slaves. They have no choice. They work according to fixed laws. But you have a mind. You can choose between this and that. You can choose to do Keertan while thinking of your bank balance or you can choose to be focused only on the act of Keertan. Which one do you think is better? Isn't being focused on the act of Keertan better? Wouldn't that be more pleasing to the Guru? Wouldn't that make us more worthy of His blessings? This is what Guruji is trying to tell us in such simple language, but still we try to find ways to misunderstand. Guruji simply says, "My dears, when you are doing Sumiran, just make it a point to be focused on it, be devoted to that act, be one-pointed!". Guruji warns us by saying BEWARE (Saavdhaan), if you are not focused then you shall not receive the gift that Guruji mentions in the following couplet, out of which you mentioned only one line to draw your conclusions". 

The next two lines from Guruji are as follows: 
"*Sukhmanee Sahaj Gobind Gunn Naam. *
*Jis Mann Basai So Hoat Nidhan.*" 

It means, 
"*The singing of the praises of the Lord (Gobind Gunn) and His Naam are responsible for the Sahaj Avastha, which is the jewel of joy (Sukhmanee). *
*When the Naam abides in the mind, one becomes a treasure.*" 

Over here, Guruji is pointing to the Sahaj Avastha. And in the following lines of the Ashtpadi (which are not mentioned here), Guruji elaborates on the treasures that such a person receives. What needs to be understood here, is the Sahaj Avastha. It is that state of existence in which the fragmented mind naturally ceases to exist. Our every act is guided by God's Will alone. One reaches a very peaceful state where effort is no longer required. It is a state of complete relaxation, but in complete awareness. No worries remain. All doubts vanish. This is a state beyond one-pointedness. One needed to be one-pointed when the mind was wandering. But now the mind is totally pacified. It only serves as an instrument as long as the realized soul inhabits the body. This is also called the state of no-mind. One ascends into permanent union with God, with His Creation. One realizes true freedom that can never be taken away. I can go on and on talking about this state, there is no end to it. But i hope i have succeeded in conveying the point. Simply put, "Ekaagrata" is needed when there is a mind that is split into many fragments, but when one reaches the Sahaj Avastha no effort is needed any longer. One reaches the simplest yet most profound state of existence. There is no mind left to be integrated. So, there is no need of one-pointedness once Sumiran has done its job. All that remains is Oneness, not one-pointedness. When you see the same ONE, within and without, whom will you point to?! You are that! 



> Balbir Ji: Not once the Gurus have suggested starting with the technique of one-pointedness to discipline the mind.


 
snavneet: In short, one-pointedness is not a technique to discipline the mind. Sumiran will do the job of disciplining the mind, of pacifying it and Guruji will bless us with its mastery. But one-pointedness is the least bit of devotion that a Guru expects from His Shishya. If you can't even try to remain focused and one-pointed in your devotion to the Guru then don't expect the Guru to bless you with salvation. And yes, the idea of one-pointed devotion appears many times in Gurbani, the only reason you feel otherwise is that you have understood the idea in the reverse order. Actually, i can provide many examples from Sikh history where one-pointed devotion has marked many great events. But, i will mention those only if the idea still hasn't gotten across to you. 



> Balbir Ji: Ekaagar Cheet is the result of True Simran. Simran is the gift from God through the Guru right from the first stage.


 
snavneet: Not exactly. "Ekaagar Cheet" in not the final result of True Sumiran. It is supposed to go along with Sumiran. Your focus helps in Sumiran and Sumiran helps in improving focus, so that you could do it better. "Ekaagar Cheet" and "Sumiran" fuel each other. Indeed as you advance, "Ekaagar Cheet" becomes more profound as a result, but there comes a point where "Ekaagar Cheet" is no longer required, when you have crossed over to the other shore. "Ekaagar Cheet" is like a boat that you used to reach the other shore, once you are there will you continue carrying the boat on your head? Would it be required once you have reached your final destination? "Ekaagar Cheet" plus "Sumiran" is capable of taking you to that final state of "effortlessness", where focus will no longer be required. The Guru expects you to try to do Sumiran with an unwavering mind, with an "Ekaagar Cheet", as well as you can, that's all. I think i have explained all this above. Anyway, if your Sumiran is True and is upto its fruition then the Guru will bless you with divine Union. Through this Union, your consciousness (Cheet) will become one with God, Guru and the whole of Creation. Then there shall be no 'other'. You will become the observer, the process of observation and the observed. There will be nothing left to focus upon because you will be in everything. You will become all there is. A finger can point at everything else but it cannot point at itself. If the finger becomes all there is then what will it point at? Where will you point your devotion? You will be in everything! 



> Balbir Ji: A thirsty person from the first sip recognizes the virtue of water, not from its third sip.


 
snavneet: Not exactly. A thirsty person will recognize the virtue of water even if there is no water around him. Then he will make maximum effort to find it. Once found, he will start drinking it and will feel more and more satisfied and ultimately will feel that all his thirst has been quenched and will no longer look for water. The process of looking for water requires focus and attention. If he is really thirsty then while looking for water if he sees a bag full of the most precious jewels, they will mean nothing to him. If his thirst is real then his search for water will be one-pointed. And he will keep looking for it unless he finds it. On similar lines, if we are really thirsty for salvation then our devotion will be one-pointed and if it is not then we will have to wait till our Vairaag (thirst) reaches a point where our entire focus rests on our target. Otherwise, even a little stone lying on the road will distract us. In the Mahabharata, do you think Arjun could have hit the eye of the fish with his arrow while looking at its reflection in the water, if the arrow of his mind was not one-pointed? And when the arrow hit the eye of the fish, was there any need to be one-pointed any longer? After the arrow hit its target, it would just have become a reason to celebrate. Do you think that once you unite with God you will need to be one-pointed on anything? What for? It would be the greatest reason for the most glorious jubilation! In God, you will find infinite peace, bliss, joy and ecstasy for eternity. One-pointedness will have no use for you any longer. It is required before the goal is achieved when you are trying to hit the eye of the fish! 

I hope this really helps!  
Bhul Chukk Dee Khima Mangdaa Haan.


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## 21khalsa13 (May 13, 2006)

One poitedness is all that matters
quote 'Surinder Cheema'


In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). The peerless state of mind is the result of it, not the one-pointedness that matters all.
quote balbir singh


sat shri akaal

my love, respect and blessings to all.
I would like to add a few words. very humbly i feel as in terms of doctrine, experience and actualisation I am still onlt scratching the surface.
this topic is amazing and so real. the most useful discussion on this forum
thanks to everyone for their input as it has served to help put things in context at a deeper level for me. thank you sincerley.


regarding one pointedness - bhenji you are completely right it is the secret to success.
if you want to achieve anything in this world it needs this single minded approach.
pure focus with the whole mind in the direction of your dreams and that desire/vision will be manifest. so what ever is desired money, wealth, fame, family, lovers anything for you to suceed it will require single minded focus. so je raab phanna - single minded focus. 

 beyond this what is as important is SINGLE  minded focus with the WHOLE MIND. 
this is where what Bhaji balbir says is very important. 
In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). 

opening the mind by a watchful sense - becoming the observer - what is seen, what is heard, what is  felt, etc.. will lead us to - let people come to know God first

deepening experinece this with single minded focus to who is doing the seeing, the hearing , the feeling.


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## 21khalsa13 (May 13, 2006)

when doing gur mantra 'waheguru' with full atention - the mind is directed to look and appreciate the grace that god showers over us.

opening the mind - watching - focuing on gurmantra deeper mind becomes in awe of what is being observed, wow!! how do I see, understanding light and it's properities, waves vibrations wow!!
seeing the first aura from a person,a tree Wow!! seeing the connections in life - the unwritten script - the superstring WOW!! waheguru
listening to the sound, the unstruck melody, the shabd - understanding it's full implications
 wow!! getting in tune with hukum WOW!! every realistaion WOW!! waheguru
understanding how we hear - sound waves etc WOW!!
really getting in touch with ourselves,
understanding where the source of the feelings are, how they help create our environment, our ambieince WOW! again understanding the vibrations, chemical reaction that cause us to feel - and changing those VIbrations from our mind we change the reality we experience WOW!! waheguru.
understanding that it's the guru's grace Waheguru
understanding this is the nature of the guru - WA he guru - 
this can be only be experinced by observing, listening, feeling, tasting, smelling and then beyond the senses. the biij mantra helps from getting 'lost' when we are going beyond our senses.

understamnding the biij mantra 
ekoankarsatnamm keeps our mind from creating new patterns (as it does this very quickly top remain in control)constantly driving us higher and deeper. provides constant upward momentum so that we don't get stuck in maya or even supernatural phenomenon, powers as we experience them or become aware of them. 
it states clearly the source of all vibrations (nad - naam) is this primal vibration and it is with this we have single minded focus.


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## Archived_member2 (May 13, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

May I ask where the journey toward God begins? Is this the Naam-Jap or one-pointedness?


Balbir Singh


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## 21khalsa13 (May 14, 2006)

could it begin in the heart                   ?


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## simpy (May 15, 2006)

Respected Sadhsangat Ji,

About the begining of the journey toward God:

God is there all the time and He is the closest One that we have(hwQ pY nyry). It is our mind that has created this separation with Him. So we are ever liberated, but just not aware of it. Because
imil mwieAw suriq gvweI.

To end this seperation we have to take the road of faith. So we can say that this journey (to God) starts with our commitment to our Faith. And then with Guru Kirpa-ggn dmwmw bwija.

And all the milestones, turns, and detours on this road are different for different people, based on how committed they are. Unshakable Faith; Self-surrender, Self-discipline; patience; Self-mastery; Intuitive Wisdom; Self-knowledge; Love of God; Longing for God; practice penance or austerities; Devotion; Love for His Creation; Meditation on Divine Name; Prayers; Control on ever-wandering mind i.e. One-pointededness(my favourite one)....., all are suggested by Guru Ji over and over again as these lead us to our real destination.


Mostly it is thought that there is some easy A.B.C..... for union with God, that is similar for everyone. It is a war that an aspirant has to fight inside. It cannot be the same for all. 


This is the reason, realization of the Self cannot be gifted from one to another like sharing some empirical knowledge. It is a fight that one has to fight alone. It has to be realized by each individual for himself/herself with Guru Kirpa.


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## Archived_member2 (May 15, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

The list of preconditions from a preacher is never ending. He always enhances this list before a seeker has reached it.

The True Guru sings sgl mqWq kyvl hir nwm ]
"sagal mataaNt kayval har naam." SGGS Ang 296-4
All notions end alone by Hari Naam.

Strange is that preachers have never stopped adding new conditions in their lists.

And the True Gurus go on singing like Akhand Paath 

khqu kbIru sunhu nr nrvY prhu eyk kI srnw ]
"kahat kabeer sunhu nar narvai parahu ayk kee sarnaa."

kyvl nwmu jphu ry pRwnI qb hI inhcY qrnw ]6]2]
"kayval naam japahu ray paraanee tab hee nihchai tarnaa. ||6||2|| SGGS Ang 1349-18
Only chant Naam O mortals then surely come across.


Balbir Singh


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## snavneet (May 16, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.  

Here, i pour myself once again for you. 



> Balbir Ji: May I ask where the journey toward God begins? Is this the Naam-Jap or one-pointedness?


 
snavneet: 
Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God because that moment would have been inspired by a moment which took place before it. Just like time always flows in one direction, which is forwards, similarly each one of us is always moving towards God at our own pace, learning our lessons on the way. We may lose our path and go astray, but the sorrow that eventually comes out of it, brings us back on track. Let me explain with a simple example. Suppose that one fine day, after experiencing all sorts of material pleasures, a very rich man realizes that fame and fortune cannot bring him true everlasting happiness. Out of his experience, he understands that everything is perishable, that nothing in this physical world lasts forever. Out of Vairaag he then decides to seek salvation in God. Someone might say that this is the point where his journey towards God begins. But, what if he hadn't earned himself all that fame and fortune and gone through the associated pleasures, would this 'moment of realization' have even come to him? How then can we be certain where his journey began? What i mean to say is that, even his becoming rich and then experiencing great boredom out of temporal pleasures was part of the divine plan, meant to inspire him, meant to give him that extra push that would accelerate him on his ongoing journey towards God-realization. If the push is great enough then one can escape the gravitic pull of Maya, otherwise one re-enters the cycle of life and death. But some day, that greatest of pushes will come, which will take one naturally and permanently away from Maya's slavery and towards true awakening. 

Also, let me assure you that God-realization is not the end of the journey. God always remains unfathomable. If that wasn't the case then the enlightened ones wouldn't have called God an infinite ocean of consciousness and bliss. The journey in God never ends even after realization. We will always be journeying in God. But right now, we are un-enlightened. We are sleep-walking through Him. A major part of our consciousness is asleep, it is unconscious. While most of us continue to suffer in cycles of life and death, there are a few who put everything at stake and decide to realize God permanently, once-and-forever! Ultimately, we all will come to that realization, but the sooner the better because the world of infinite ecstasy awaits us post enlightenment. Many-a-times we refer to the enlightened ones as the awakened ones. They are called the awakened ones because they have become entirely conscious of their existence in God. No part of their being is unconscious. They are 100% awake and aware of God, in and around them. They start experiencing the infinite ocean of bliss with complete awareness. Remember one thing for sure, God-realization is not the end! It is the point where we come out of repetition, out of all cycles and enter into a realm where love, joy, peace and bliss are ever new and eternal. Simply put, we are all on a pilgrimage towards God-realization via God but the journey never began and will never end because God Himself has no beginning and no end! 

Now, let us come to the second part of your question. I ask you, how can Naam-Jap be the beginning of your journey? Didn't someone inspire you to do Naam-Jap? Why not call that the beginning? Now, i can keep going backwards in your present life and then probably in your past lives and never reach the point where your journey began. Now, this moment when someone inspired you to do Naam-Jap depends on all the moments that came before it, even on your birth! What if you were born into a Buddhist family? You could be practicing Vipaasna instead of Naam-Jap or none at all. Maybe, even in a previous life, somebody inspired you to do Naam-Jap, but you got bored and abandoned it. So, would that moment from your previous life, when somebody inspired you to do Naam-Jap and you started doing it but abandoned it later, constitute the beginning of the journey? Think deeply about this and you will find out that you cannot single out any moment, day, year, life, etc. where your journey towards God-realization began. 

And, what to speak of one-pointedness. By now you would have realized its importance yourself! We all have been in this cycle of birth and death, since God knows when! Why? What went wrong? Why didn't we realize God in the first birth itself? And i am sure, we would have crossed paths with many enlightened beings in at least some of those lives. Why did we not get enlightened then? Could it have been due to our lack of devotion? Our lack of one-pointedness? Maybe the enlightened ones tried their best, but we were so manmukh by nature that we never totally devoted ourselves to their teachings, never followed them in totality, with one-pointedness! It could have happened that way, right? Even in sikh history, you will come across many such manmukhs, who failed to obey the Gurus, even though they lived with them and listened to their Baani in person. Take, Guru Ramdaas Ji's eldest son Prithi Chand as an example. He lived with Guruji, served Him, served the Langar, listened to His sermons, did Naam-Jap, etc. but still he betrayed his father Guru Ramdaas Ji and his younger brother Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He clearly went against Guruji's instructions so many times. And Prithi Chand coveted the Gurgaddi for himself and made every possible attempt to take it away from Guru Arjan Dev Ji, who was the most deserving successor to Guru Ramdaas Ji. Even in the presence of His holiness Guru Ramdaas Ji, Prithi Chand failed to become a Gurmukh. Till the very last moment, he denied hiding the letters sent by Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Ramdaas Ji, which Guruji had to finally locate using His universal clairvoyance! So, inspite of doing Naam-Jap, inspite of doing Keertan, inspite of listening to Sermons, inspite of doing Sewa, what did Prithi Chand lack? I am sure it is not too hard to figure out now. Prithi Chand's devotion to the Guru was incomplete, it was not "one-pointed". In a way, it was "two-pointed" or "many-pointed" because the part of Him that betrayed Guruji was the part of his ego, of his fragmented mind. His mind was split up into so many pieces, it was 'envying his younger brother', 'coveting the Gurgaddi', 'denying the Hukam of Guruji so many times' and what not! He lacked one-pointedness in his devotion to Guruji. And for the same reason, he lacked one-pointedness in doing 'Naam-Jap', 'Keertan' and 'Sewa'. Because even while doing Naam-Jap, he would be thinking of his next step to get closer to the Gurgaddi. That's why Guruji says in his Baani, "Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet", because He expects at least that much from us. He wants us to praise God but warns us to do it with a one-pointed mind, with complete devotion, otherwise we would not make any progress. If that was not the case then He would have changed the mind of Prithi Chand using His divine powers, but then that wouldn't be Self-realization, would it? And whatever is not Self-realized, is lost easily in a moment of faithlessness. I hope you got the point this time. Simply put, Sumiran without one-pointedness is of no use at all. If you can be one-pointed even for a few moments during your Sumiran, then your Sumiran will be fruitful and its fruit would make you even more one-pointed! It is like a chain reaction! 

As a challenge, try Reading something while doing Sumiran orally. Go ahead, read the above paragraph and also recite "Waheguru" loudly, both at the same time! See, if you can do either of them in any fruitful way. I am absolutely sure that you will do justice to neither of these activities. You can be fair to either of them, only if you become one-pointed and commit to one act at a time. Please try this. You will know what i have been trying to explain for so long! And, via this challenge, your mind is becoming only "two-pointed", reading one thing and reciting another, imagine the usual situations in everyday life, where the mind runs away in countless directions, especially when one sits to do Sumiran! 

Let me know if you are convinced about something!  

Bhull Chukk Dee Khima Mangdaa Haan.


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## Archived_member2 (May 16, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for your efforts. I did not know that I might have to read a Veda because of my curiosity.

Quote >>>I hope you got the point this time. Simply put, Sumiran without one-pointedness is of no use at all. If you can be one-pointed even for a few moments during your Sumiran, then your Sumiran will be fruitful and its fruit would make you even more one-pointed! It is like a chain reaction! <<<

I hope I understood the extract of your explanation. According to this both, Simran and one-pointedness, are very important.

**************

Quote >>>As a challenge, try Reading something while doing Sumiran orally. Go ahead, read the above paragraph and also recite "Waheguru" loudly, both at the same time! See, if you can do either of them in any fruitful way. I am absolutely sure that you will do justice to neither of these activities. You can be fair to either of them, only if you become one-pointed and commit to one act at a time. Please try this. You will know what i have been trying to explain for so long! And, via this challenge, your mind is becoming only "two-pointed", reading one thing and reciting another, imagine the usual situations in everyday life, where the mind runs away in countless directions, especially when one sits to do Sumiran! <<<

In this last paragraph you challenged and stressed that Simran and anything else will result in two-pointedness of mind.

Is awareness of Simran and one-pointedness not leading to two-pointedness? Please explain.


Balbir Singh


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## snavneet (May 17, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.  

Well, it is good to know that you have begun to appreciate the importance of one-pointedness! But i feel that you still haven't understood it entirely. So, i will try my best to elaborate further. 



> Balbir Ji: Is awareness of Simran and one-pointedness not leading to two-pointedness? Please explain.


 
snavneet:
You have asked that question because you think that 'awareness' and 'one-pointedness' are qualitatively different. One-pointedness is nothing but 'complete awareness'. As your awareness in Sumiran grows, you will experience glimpses of 'complete awareness' or 'one-pointedness'. As you continue further, a time may come when awareness of Sumiran permanently reaches its peak. At that time, you will be aware only of Sumiran and nothing else. You will be permanently one-pointed in the act. You will be focused on the tenth door. Beyond that God is the judge. 

(Elaborating...)
On its own, "one-pointedness" can never be an act. You can't just be one-pointed. You have to be one-pointed about something. It has to go along with something. One-pointedness is being completely focused on an act. The act could be that of Sumiran or reading or dancing or singing or whatever! One-pointedness is same as total concentration. Now concentration can never exist by itself. One has to concentrate on something else. "One-pointedness" is putting all of one's "concentration" or "attention" or "Dhyaan" into some action. "Many-pointedness" means that Dhyaan or Concentration has become fragmented. In the challenge above, i asked you to 'read' one paragraph and simultaneously 'recite' Waheguru orally. I am sure you failed to do it, simply because your attention got split up into two. If your Dhyaan or focus was on 'reading' alone, you could have 'read' better. If your Dhyaan was on 'recitation' alone, you could have 'recited' better. Suppose that while doing Sumiran, you succeed in being entirely focused on the act of "Naam-Jap" alone and that no other thoughts distract you, in that case what state would you be in? You would be "one-pointed" in the act of "Sumiran", isn't it? Someone could say that your "concentration" or "focus" or "attention" or "dhyaan" was totally in the act of "Sumiran", isn't it? 

You have used the phrase 'awareness of Simran' in your last post. What does 'awareness of Sumiran' mean? What does it mean to be aware of something? Sumiran is an act that you are trying to perform. What does it really mean to be aware of this act? It simply indicates as to 'how deeply focused' you are, on the act of Sumiran. And what if your focus was 100% on Sumiran? Wouldn't that constitute one-pointedness in Sumiran? One-pointedness is a special case of awareness. It is that case when awareness of the act is complete. That is what Jaap is all about. It is about becoming 'one-pointed' in the act. When that happens and is acceptable to the Guru then He bestows the blessing of the 'Ajapaa Jaap' on His disciple. Then one enters the Sahaj-Avastha, the state in which one becomes the master of one's mind. Focus or concentration are no longer needed because the wavering mind comes to a standstill and submits itself in service. 

Hope this helps.


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## Archived_member2 (May 17, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

I found some time to go through your posts in this thread again. These posts have many controversies. Please clear them if possible.

Quotes from Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God . . . Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness . . . The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<

Quote from the controversial Post #32 dated 05-16-2006 >>>Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God. <<< 

**************

Quote from post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc . . . Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. <<<

It is strange that first and second stages of Jaap, from your explanation, are because of our efforts. I do not know if ego of any person can start Jap with his attempts.

Gurdev sings.

mn kI ibiD siqgur qy jwxY Anidnu lwgY sd hir isau iDAwnu ]
"man kee biDh satgur tay jaanai an-din laagai sad har si-o Dhi-aan." SGGS Ang 1259-19
Technique of (taming) mind is known by Sat Guru. Day and night it establishes meditation in Sad Hari.

Gurbani raises curiosity and answers this way.

kaunu ibiD qw kI khw krau ]
"ka-un biDh taa kee kahaa kara-o." SGGS Ang 1322-11
Which technique it is, says to do

..... khu nwnk nwm rsu pweIAY swDU crn gha
"kaho naanak naam ras paa-ee-ai saaDhoo charan gaha-o." SGGS Ang 1322-13
Says Nanak, we receive Naam Essence at Sadhu's Charan.

**************

Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself! <<<

I feel it is only ego that gets matured to its peak if it is our effort, not the Ajapaa Jap.

**************

You referred Guru Arjan Dev Ji's wonderful Vaak "Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-15

In my view, 'Ustat' means praise. Praise and slandering are two opposite words belonging to this world. God's Ustat is done to achieve material worlds. Then God is the giver of all. This is why Gurdev sang about achieving Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis in this Pauri not Salvation.

Gurdev is not singing here "Prabh Ka Simran Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." 

Through Simran we reach the ultimate goal of human life, i.e., Mukti. Naturally Ustat of Prabh is done with attention, a one-pointedness chit to achieve all material things. This is a different story why people do Ustat of worldly bosses with one-pointedness on materials to achieve those.

**************

Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. <<<

Please provide one reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

**************
Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. <<<

Why suddenly in Ajapaa Jaap, "Ek Omkar" replaces by the Om sound. Please explain.

**************

Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. <<<

Please elaborate. Why ego could attempt, however tiny, when every bit of progress, we make, is a gift from God.

**************

You referred Bhai Gurdas Ji's words "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai."

Why one needs to search examples from others than the Gurus to support ego. Please provide one similar statement from the Gurus too?

Perhaps one can understand here why The Gurus did not offer Bhai Gurdas Ji Gurgaddi.

**************
Reading your views praising small efforts of ego is interesting and on the other hand in the same post this statement "The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs."

**************

This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (May 18, 2006)

Dear friends



> This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all


 

Very rightly mentioned as  your disscusion might be helpinh many others like me . So please continue 


Jatinder Singh.


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## Anoop (May 18, 2006)

Sat sri akal everyone. 

Referring to this topic, there are many things that can be said. 

The thing is, before we can actually perform anything, we must have knowledge about it, and understanding. Dont just rush to things and say your going to read the gurbani etc. The thing is, we all do it obviously for many reasons, (personal reasons), and obviously we would have ego. 

I would say that people have different levels of gods grace, that help them in life. The sikh gurus were different then anyone there is today in the world. Think about the time they had and how busy they were in thei life. Their was quitness in their life, life where people were confused, and for that, they were more in love with god, as they were to pure in heart. In today's world, we may not have time for being to pure, and we can not be like the sikh gurus. The sikh gurus became god, whereas we are on different levels. There are people in this world with different levels between them and god. 

Pray to god the way you should be, in the heart and mind. Pray and become god the way you should be. 

We all have the purest state...the soul, which is immortal. We are all from the origin of god. As long as we realise that there is the fearless all loving, omnipresent god, we have different ways to remember god which gets us going in life, or gets us to become who we should be.

So dont worry, the divine light is there and will forever be there. The creator, the lord is with everyone, we are all from god. 

God is where we accept who we are. There are many ways to love god in different paths. Choose the path that is good for you. Sikhism was not created by the human gurus themself. It was all god. The gurus became and engaged into ''GOD''. The khalsa became god. 

It could be hard for some people to read the holy books in sikhim or any other religion because they are not use to it, and they might be suitable for praying to god in a different way. We all have different levels, as long as we love the true one god, the one reality truth that is the guider, we can enjoy life and act accordingly. 

Sikhism, khalsa was from god. God has many different people because there are different paths and levels that they have. 

Before we act the way the sikh gurus acted, we must have knowledge about their background, and how they were pure. The physical life is filled with time, and social changes. 

Follow the holy book if you are able to. If you should be then folllow it as long as its for the love of god. And do what is best for you, as long as you are beliving in the one ultimate god. Its up to you the way you pray to god. We are all one when it comes to god.


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## Anoop (May 18, 2006)

meditation will guide people in the way they are more in love with god:

For example, a person who is likely to have more faith in god, would have fewer problems in meditating, whereas someone who is beginning to meditate to god, it may take more time, and it may take some other things such as music or something inspiring to enhance their belife and meditation. 

Remember we all have and require different levels for the path of divinity.


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## snavneet (May 19, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.  

Balbir Ji, please take a deep breath because this reply is really long, something that you are not used to! 
I feel that in your last post you have misinterpreted Gurbani. So, i will jump straight to that part first and try my best to point out the shortcomings in your interpretation. After that i will get to all the other points that you have raised from my posts, which i assure you are not controversies at all! 



> Balbir Ji:
> You referred Guru Arjan Dev Ji's wonderful Vaak "Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-15
> 
> In my view, 'Ustat' means praise. Praise and slandering are two opposite words belonging to this world. God's Ustat is done to achieve material worlds. Then God is the giver of all. This is why Gurdev sang about achieving Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis in this Pauri not Salvation.
> ...


 
snavneet: 

Guruji's Baani that is under consideration is this: 

"*Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, *
*Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet.*" 

In the beginning you were of the view that 'Ekaagar Cheet' was a result of True Sumiran and that True Ustat was possible only after becoming 'Ekaagar Cheet'. At that time you were not ready to accept the importance of 'Ekaagar Cheet' during Sumiran. And you also had no issues with the word 'Ustat'. And in your latest post, God's Ustat has suddenly become something very ordinary for you. You say that people do Ustat to gain worldly things. If you read Gurbani attentively, you will find out that our Gurus and Bhagats have done Ustat of God all the time. So, were they doing it for worldly gain? So, if one praises the Lord out of true love for Him, is it to gain material wealth and powers? There are so many Bhagats who have realized God just by doing His Ustat, this is what 'Prem Bhagti' is all about. And how can you say that Sumiran leads to Mukti and Ustat leads to worldly gain only? I REQUEST YOU to carefully and attentively go through the lines following the above two lines in Guruji's Baani. In the same 'pad' Guruji also says the following, "*Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan*" which means that "*Such a person does not fall into the cycle of birth and death any longer*". Isn't that Mukti? 'Maya' becomes the 'daasi' (servant) of the one who is 'Mukt' and so Guruji also spoke of Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis becoming available to such a person. Apart from these, Guruji spoke of other attributes of a Mukt person in the same 'pad', but you seem to have ignored those. 

Also, just like "Ustat" means praise and has an opposite called "Nindaa" or slander, similarly "Sumiran" also has an opposite. Sumiran is also a word of this world, it is bound to have an opposite. "Sumiran" or "Simran" comes from the Sanskrit word "Smaran", which means "remembrance". In our case, "Sumiran" is the remembrance of God or God's Naam. The opposite of "Smaran" is "Vismaran", which means "to forget". Forgetting God or His Naam is termed as "Vismaran". 

Moreover, if people can do Ustat just for material gain then people can do Sumiran just for the same purpose too, isn't it? You say that 'Ustat' with 'Ekaagar Cheet' leads to material gain, but just doing 'Sumiran' leads to 'Mukti'. Yes, Sumiran is capable of leading one to Mukti but so is Ustat. It all depends on how deeply and truly involved a person is, in either or both of the acts. 

But now, once again, you seem to want to do Sumiran without paying any attention to it, without any 'Ekaagar Cheet', even though you had accepted the importance of 'Ekaagar Cheet' going along with Sumiran in an earlier message. Why are you getting so confused? You want to do Sumiran without being focused on it? Okay. Try it. See what happens. Experience it for yourself. Like i said earlier, then there would be no difference between you and the Sumiran done by a parrot or even a machine because even a machine can repeat 'Waheguru' like that, without focusing on what it is doing. Is it really so hard to grasp? 

NOW I SHALL REPLY TO YOUR OTHER QUERIES...



> Balbir Ji: I found some time to go through your posts in this thread again. These posts have many controversies. Please clear them if possible.


 
snavneet:
Indeed, i will clear your doubts as many times as you raise them. I will not get tired because i like discussing spiritual matters. Maybe you will get tired of asking questions. In fact, i feel that i have answered many of your questions in detail in my previous posts. But i am ready to explain everything again and again, in new ways, till the ideas become clear to you. 

You speak of 'many' controversies in my posts. Could it be that they appear to be controversies to you, but in reality they are not? Maybe a few more perusals of my posts by you and the controversies could disappear. 

We live in a world of duality, in a world of polar opposites. Hence controversies exist because the mind sees two possibilities in everything. And, the unenlightened human mind keeps wavering between these polarities like a pendulum and as a result it remains in distress. So, the ones who have become enlightened try to show us the way. They try to help us find a balance in everything. They guide us to find the middle path. All true religions constitute an attempt to bring the mind at the exact centre of the two polarities. This is elucidated by Guruji when he says, "*Khanihu Tikhi Vaalhu Nikee Aet Maarag Jaanaa*" meaning that "*The path that you have to tread is like the edge of a sword, it is thinner than a hair*", indicating that one may easily fall towards either side, towards either polarity. And this falling on either side can happen with respect to Gurbani also, if one is not aware enough. For example, Guru Gobind Singh Ji says, "*Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey*", which means that "*God is darkness and God is also the light of lights*" or "*Salutations to darkness and Salutations to the light of lights*". So, is this a controversy? To me, it does not appear to be a controversy. But to a layman, this will appear controversial. The mind of a layman would think, 'Why is Guruji saluting darkness'? Such lay-people find many controversies in Gurbani based on their level of understanding. But that doesn't mean that Gurbani is at fault. The fault lies in the interpretation of Gurbani by these people. And such things happen when people expound Gurbani without living it. 



> Balbir Ji:
> Quotes from Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God . . . Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness . . . The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<
> 
> Quote from the controversial Post #32 dated 05-16-2006 >>>Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God. <<<


 
snavneet:
I can assure you that there is no controversy in the above two statements from my posts. You call it a controversy because in one post i spoke of 'the beginning and the end of our spiritual journey' and in the other post i spoke of 'there being no beginning or end to this journey'. But during your observation, you have not considered the contexts in both the posts. 

I will try my best to be simple and concise. Requesting your kind attention. 

The 'beginnings' and 'ends' of journeys refer to finite things. A journey refers to traveling from one point to another, it could be in space or time or both. A human body can have a journey in space and time. For example, your body started its journey when you were born at some time and place and it will end its journey when you will die at some time and place. This example is from the grosser world. The mind, which is subtler, also has a journey, which is just in time, nevertheless it is a journey in the literal sense. A day will come when you will become 'no-mind', when you will become enlightened, that will be the end of the journey for the mind. This means that there has to be a day when you descended into the world of the mind. But what was there before you descended? In fact, 'what' descended into the world of the mind would constitute a better question? It was your soul. What will become awakened when you become no-mind? The soul. And through Gurbani, we know that the soul is a part of God. And if God has no beginning and no end in time then how can the soul have a beginning and an end in time? If God is beyond time then how can the soul be bound by time? We may talk of the journey of the mind but not the journey of the soul because the journey of the soul never began and will never end. 

In my first post, in reply to il_sikh ji, i was speaking of the spiritual journey of the mind. He stated that salvation can be achieved by meditation on God. And i simply wanted to point out that the mind cannot know God and hence it cannot meditate 'on' God. Since the mind is finite, it has to focus on something finite to be able to meditate on it. And that is what i explained in the first post. Simply put, i was talking about the mind and with respect to the mind, there can be a journey, a beginning and an end. 

In the other post, in reply to you, i said that 'we all have been on this journey since time immemorial'. Over here i was talking about the journey of the soul, which is a part ("ang") of God. And with respect to the soul, there really cannot be a journey in the literal sense because there is no start or end in this case. 



> Balbir Ji:
> Quote from post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc . . . Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. <<<
> 
> It is strange that first and second stages of Jaap, from your explanation, are because of our efforts. I do not know if ego of any person can start Jap with his attempts.
> ...


 
snavneet: 
So, you mean to say that the ego of a person and Jaap cannot co-exist? Anybody who starts Jaap, starts also with an ego. It never happens that the ego disppears as soon as the Guru asks us to do Jaap. One has to make some effort. Is it really so hard to grasp?? I knew someone in my family who used to do Jaap, day-in and day-out, but was very egoistic during day-to-day interactions. And you will find many such people in the world. They do not put in the required efforts and expect miracles to happen. Ego doesn't disappear with Jaap or during Jaap. In fact, many-a-times, people become egoistic about the act of doing Jaap! They start competing with others. I have known such people. This clearly indicates that there is something wrong with their efforts and not with Jaap. Ego disappears completely only when "Ajapaa Jaap" is heard. "Ajapaa Jaap" is a kind of confirmation from God, that now you are free of ego! The attempt at Jaap has to be genuine. The rest will be handled by the Guru. 

Moreover, i never said that the first two stages of Jaap demand 100% effort from the meditator. I just said that one simply has to make the effort to sit and do Jaap with a one-pointed mind and if the effort is genuine then the Guru's blessings are automatically received. You must have heard the word "Udam"? It occurs many times in Gurbani in various contexts. It simply means "genuine/sincere effort". Consider these simple and straight-forward lines from Gurbani talking about the significance of Udam. 

"*Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada.*"
which means, 
"*The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart.*" 
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)

"*Udam Karat Seetal Mann Bhaey.*" 
which means, 
"*By putting in genuine efforts, the mind became calm and quiet.*" 

Now, let's move to the 3 lines from Gurbani that you quoted. 

The first line says that "The technique of taming the mind is known from the Satguru". Indeed, the technique is learnt from the Satguru. But somebody has got to practice the technique, isn't it? Who is going to do it? It has to be done. That's the only amount of effort the Guru expects you to put in. There are many in this world who know all the techniques but do not put them into practice, so they never realize the blessings of the Guru.

The second line says that "Which technique should i use (to realize God), what should i do"? Now, this is a genuine inquiry that comes to the mind of a truth seeker. If one is not fortunate enough to have the guidance of the Satguru then one may go astray. Indeed, the technique to realize God is received at the feet of the True Guru. But there have been many unfortunate ones, who inspite of being at the Guru's feet and inspite of receiving the technique failed to realize God, simply because they did not put the right effort and bring it into practice.

The third line says that "We receive the essence of the Naam at the feet of the holy". Indeed, we may receive the essence of the Naam at the feet of the realized One. But is that enough? Is nothing expected from your end? At the very least, do you not have to follow your Guru? Isn't following the Guru sincerely, also an Udam, a genuine effort? 

I don't know why you quoted these lines because they do not contradict anything that i said before. These lines do not talk of the effort expected from the Sikh, they talk about the ways in which one may receive the right technique to put effort into. 



> Balbir ji:
> Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself! <<<
> 
> I feel it is only ego that gets matured to its peak if it is our effort, not the Ajapaa Jap.


 
snavneet: 
Did i ever say that Ajapaa Jaap gets matured? Did i ever say that we hear Ajapaa Jaap right from our first attempt at Sumiran? Not even once. Then why even bring Ajapaa Jaap into context when you are asking about one's ego getting matured through effort? 

Now let us talk about the maturing of one's effort during Naam-Jap. There comes a time when someone does Sumiran for the first time. Ego remains, it doesn't disappear immediately. Under the guidance of the Guru, as one progresses and becomes more involved in Sumiran, ego weakens more and more, until one day the last vestige of ego remains. Again with the guidance of the Guru, and with Udam of the Sikh, this last remaining amount of ego also disappears and one becomes Mukt of ego permanently. The Guru's role is that of guiding the Sikh at each step and preventing him from going astray or falling asleep. But the Guru will not carry the Sikh on the path, the Guru will never force the Sikh. The Sikh has to walk on his own, on the path shown by the Guru. What is so hard to understand in that? Simply put, the Guru guides and the Sikh follows. At least, that much effort is expected from the Sikh. But if the Sikh starts feeling that he is smarter than the Guru and does not need the Guru's guidance and leaves the Guru, only then does his ego mature. When i speak of effort, i am just appreciating the importance of sincere effort or 'Udam' from the devotee, which is the basic minimum as per Gurbani. If there is no 'Udam' then one cannot mature on the spiritual path. 'Udam' is just about facing the Guru all the time and not turning your back towards Him. Hence Gurbani speaks of Gurmukhs and Manmukhs. 'Gurmukh' is someone who remains facing towards the Guru, always ready to learn, and Manmukh is someone who turns the back towards the Guru. The Guru will never force you to turn around. He will just keep showering His wisdom on you, until you put that little bit of effort and turn away from your mind and turn towards your Guru. That little bit of effort, 'to remain focused on the Guru', is required. 

I hope this clears it up for you. 



> Balbir Ji:
> Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. <<<
> 
> Please provide one reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.


 
snavneet:
In Gurbani, you will not find a single line that says, "Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap". Gurbani is not teaching us mathematical equations. If you are looking for that kind of a reference then i am sorry i cannot provide one. But i can assure you that the references required to understand the above are available in Gurbani. But you will have to explore! 
Moreover, i want to say some more very important things, which you will have to try to understand. So, i request your complete attention. Gurbani says that God is unfathomable, that God cannot be described, that one may keep on describing God but that process will never end. I hope you agree. And Gurbani itself is not excluded from this fact. Gurbani does not attempt to describe God completely because in that case Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji would be never ending, and that is not the case. Gurbani guides us so that God may be experienced by us. Gurbani makes us aware of facts that are capable of inspiring us, so that we could reach that stage where we may experience God ourselves. So, Gurbani is not an attempt at the complete description of God or His Creation because Gurbani itself declares that it is not possible to do so. But whatever Gurbani says is True because it comes out of the Self-Realization of many souls. But there are many things that Gurbani doesn't say directly. But that doesn't mean that they become false. Gurbani doesn't claim that truth starts and ends with Gurbani because then truth would become finite, God would become finite, God's Creation would become finite. But Gurbani can help us realize and experience the truth for ourselves. I am saying all this because you will keep asking for proofs for whatever i say, but there is no readymade proof of things that are existentially true. And i am not asking you to believe me either. I am requesting you to explore Gurbani as much as possible so that you may realize things on your own. And, i do have the right to state what i have understood, don't i? And i can definitely clarify things for you as much as they are clear for me. 

'Omkar' is the 'Dhun' of 'Om' that is 'kar' (resonating) throughout the Creation and it is 'Ek' (one). It is the 'Anhad Dhun' and the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. It is 'Anhad' because nothing was struck to create this sound because in order to strike and generate a sound two objects are needed, one that you strike with and one that is struck. But this "Anhad Dhun" does not arise from duality, it comes from God, it is One, it is not produced due to friction between two objects. It is called 'Ajapaa' because after realization it is heard even though one may stop one's oral or mindful Jaap. And there appears to be no source of the 'Dhun' or 'Jaap'. The sound is just heard, at all times, at every place. Everything seems to be the source because God is in everything. One cannot single out any source of the sound. The qualities of "Ek Omkar" that Gurbani mentions match perfectly with the qualitites of "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Anhad Dhun" that Gurbani expounds. Gurbani will guide you to the above realization. 

My friend, Gurbani has to be lived and realized. Even if i rationally prove something to you then that will not become true for you because truth is all about experience. The word Self-realization sums this up. Realize it for yourself and nobody will have to convince you. What i have understood from Gurbani is what i have written above. But that doesn't mean that you have to believe me blindly. 



> Balbir Ji: Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. <<<
> 
> Why suddenly in Ajapaa Jaap, "Ek Omkar" replaces by the Om sound. Please explain.


 
snavneet:
Although "Ek" goes along with "Omkar", it is not a part of "Omkar". It is just indicative that there is only "One" like the "Omkar", that there is no other. 

Etymologically, based on Gurmukhi grammar, "Omkar" can be split up into "Om" and "kar", where "kar" means something that keeps repeating itself, such as in "Jaikar". In "Omkar", what is that which is repeating? It has to be "Om" because "kar" is attached to it. My point is that "Ek" and "kar" are describing the essential qualities of "Om", that there is only "One" like it and it "repeats forever". Hope this helps. 



> Balbir Ji:
> Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. <<<
> 
> Please elaborate. Why ego could attempt, however tiny, when every bit of progress, we make, is a gift from God.


 
snavneet: 
I have explained this above. But, in short, i will explain it again. 

Ego is something that leaves us gradually. It doesn't leave us on our first day of meditation itself. You must have done Jaap at some or the other time in the past. Are you egoless now? No. The reason is that you haven't reached that stage when the Guru may pull you out of it with your readiness and without using any force. I have been doing Jaap for quite some time and i can assure you that i have felt my ego diminish in the process. This, i speak out of my experience. But the ego is still there in me in subtler forms, but i am not giving up. I have full faith in the Guru. He is helping me to get ready, when i am ready he will pull me to the next level. My role is to just remain attentive and facing towards my Guru. That is my effort. And that is what i have been talking of. Paying full attention to the Guru is what a Sikh needs to do. Then he is a Gurmukh. As you remain facing to the Guru and be aware while listening to His guidance and then follow Him then your ego will diminish. But, atleast remain aware and facing to the Guru! That's the effort a Sikh needs to put in! That's the attempt of the ego, if you want to call it that! It is a tiny effort which makes us ready to receive the Guru's blessings. 

Consider this example: 
Suppose we all are buckets lying upside down in the rain. 
The rain is always pouring on us but we are not facing it and hence not getting filled with its water. 
The drops hitting us on the back are inspiring us to turn. 
If we, the buckets, could just turn around and face the rain then it would fill us to the brim. 
Similarly, if we just face the Guru and remain that way, we will eventually become full of His blessings to the brim! We will overflow with bliss! This just indicates that God's bliss is always pouring on us, we are just not accepting it. 

I hope that sums it up for you! 



> You referred Bhai Gurdas Ji's words "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai."
> 
> Why one needs to search examples from others than the Gurus to support ego. Please provide one similar statement from the Gurus too?
> 
> Perhaps one can understand here why The Gurus did not offer Bhai Gurdas Ji Gurgaddi.


 
snavneet:
In short, let us recollect some history of Bhai Gurdaas Ji. Bhai Gurdaas Ji is one of the most respected personalities in Sikh history. He lived with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Gurus, and all of them praised Bhai Gurdaas Ji for his contributions to Sikh literature. He was nephew to Guru Amar Daas Ji, cousin of Guru Ram Daas Ji and maternal uncle of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He scribed the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji" under the guidance and dictation of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He helped in the settlement of Amritsar and construction of Sarovar at Harimandir Sahib Ji. 

While writing the Bhagat Baani in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Bhai Gurdaas Ji was asked by Guru Arjan Dev Ji, if he wished to add any of his contributions to the Granth, to which Bhai Gurdaas Ji humbly declined, saying that a servant cannot be raised to sit at the level of the Guru. So, just by offering Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani a place in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Guru Arjan Dev Ji showed the kind of respect He had for Bhaiji and his baani. Later on in His life, Guru Arjan Dev Ji declared that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Baani could be used as a "Teeka" (simplified guide) for easy understanding of Gurbani from the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji". This is a blessing given by Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani, which means that the baani of Bhai Gurdaas Ji was also acceptable to Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Owing to this, Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani is sung at Sri Harmandir Sahib Ji and countless other Gurudwaaras. The above Shabad is very frequently heard during Keertan because it throws light on the relation between a Sikh and his Satguru. The Shabad has the seal of approval of Guru Arjan Dev Ji and yet you deny its validity? This is not right. 

And please, this Shabad is not in support of ego, as in the case of Manmukhi nature of the human mind! It is in support of sincere efforts by the seeker in following the Guru and blessings from Guruji being received by the seeker as a result of it. Ego remains till the end, but you have the choice not to follow it. Ego will try to distract you right till the moment just before enlightenment. The mind is the subtlest form of ego, which separates you from the Guru. Hence Gurbani also talks of the death of the mind because only when the mind dies, does one Unite with God. A Gurmukh is someone who follows the Guru steadfastly. He uses the mind just as an instrument to perform according to the Guru's advice. He doesn't follow the mind, even though it is there, he uses the mind as per the Guru's instructions. Sort of like being a "sanyaasee" while also being a "grihastee". 
I hope this clears things up for you. 



> Balbir Ji:
> Reading your views praising small efforts of ego is interesting and on the other hand in the same post this statement "The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs."


 
snavneet:
Where have i "praised" the efforts of the ego!!? Please tell me one line in which i have "praised" it! 
In the above line, through an analogy, i am talking about the grossest form of ego, due which one doesn't even believe in the Guru. The state of a Manmukh, who closes his eyes and says that the sun doesn't exist. 

'Water' can quench one's thirst but it can also 'drown' the same person. So, is water good or bad? 
Simply speaking, the mind of a Manmukh is his enemy but the same mind can become a Gurmukh under the guidance of the Guru. It has the potential of becoming a friend. The subtlest form of ego is simply the mind, the feeling of "I exist as a separate entity from the rest". Now, if someone remains facing towards this feeling then one eventually drowns in ego, but if one simply faces the Guru and follows Him then this mind (or subtlest ego) can also be used as an instrument. 

A 'sword' can be used to carry out atrocities on innocent people and the same 'sword' can be used to protect the weak from evil! Doesn't this make things clear to you? The mind is a potential, like this sword. Under the guidance of the Guru, it can be made into a useful sword! The mind or the ego can be transformed into something useful, can be used as an instrument! I can go on and on! 
Hope this much helps for now. 



> Balbir Ji:
> This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all.


 
snavneet: 
Indeed, this post is getting long, but this alone shouldn't stop you from replying. A seeker of truth has to be very patient and his patience has to evolve because at the tenth door, which is the door of salvation, infinite patience is required! You are not used to writing long letters and i am not even used to writing letters! 

And yes, i am not taking anything personally. That would be giving my ego a chance to drag me back into oblivion. I am here to share what little i know and also to learn from others. 

Finally, remember one important thing, that there is a subtle difference between 'curiosity' and 'inquiry'. 'Curiosity' seeks to improve upon 'knowledge' whereas 'inquiry' seeks to improve upon 'experience'. 

Bhull Chukk Di Khima Mangdaa Haan.


----------



## Archived_member2 (May 19, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for sparing time and keeping the Satsang alive.

Quote >>>I feel that in your last post you have misinterpreted Gurbani. <<<
Perhaps you want to say that one understands Gurbani according to his conscious mind.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji's Vaaks are sB qy aUc pwey AsQwnu ]
"sabh tay ooch paa-ay asthaan."
He receives the highest place of all. 

bhuir n hovY Awvn jwnu ]
"bahur na hovai aavan jaan." SGGS 295-18
That does not come and leave (vary).

God is not a place (asthaan). For God all places are equal. Only for human beings there are higher places or lower. One wants to reach highest place with God's Praise. 
Gurdev says the person receives it by 'Ustat' and does not come and go from that place life long.

God would have never spoken such words through the Guru's if your interpretation is right. 
ausqiq inMdw doaU iqAwgY KojY pdu inrbwnw ]
"ustat nindaa do-oo ti-aagai khojai pad nirbaanaa." SGGS 219-3
He renounces both praise and slandering seeking the state of Salvation.

Please ponder the wonderful truth through Guru Arjan Dev Ji's words.
ausqiq krih syvk muin kyqy qyrw AMqu n kqhU pweIAY ]
"ustat karahi sayvak mun kaytay tayraa ant na kathoo paa-ee-ai." SGGS Ang 528-15
So many servants and silent sages do Ustat.  They do not reach your end.

Strange you say that they reach the state by Ustat (praise) and ask. "Isn't that Mukti?"

**************

In my experience, it is true that the awareness of Chit is the result of True Simran.

The statement "One-pointedness is all that matter" is not correct. I feel all know what one-pointedness is. Where do they stick up?

**************

Quote from your Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 is >>>The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<

Quote from your Post #39 dated 05-19-2006 is >>>We may talk of the journey of the mind but not the journey of the soul because the journey of the soul never began and will never end . . . For example, your body started its journey when you were born at some time and place and it will end its journey when you will die at some time and place. This example is from the grosser world. The mind, which is subtler, also has a journey, which is just in time, nevertheless it is a journey in the literal sense. A day will come when you will become 'no-mind', when you will become enlightened, that will be the end of the journey for the mind. <<< 

Are Jaap and Ajapaa Jaap like mind that can begin and end?

Is God something different from Jaap of His Naam and Ajapaa Jaap? Please explain.

**************

Quote >>>So, you mean to say that the ego of a person and Jaap cannot co-exist? Anybody who starts Jaap, starts also with an ego. <<<

Yes. True Jaap cannot begin in presence of ego. Also, ego is never tiny. 

**************

Quote >>>Moreover, i never said that the first two stages of Jaap demand 100% effort from the meditator. <<<


In my experience, most of the people in this world do not come to the wisdom of Jaap. Just because they are sure that  nothing will work without their tiny ego. Jaap is 100% effort of God through the Guru right from the first step. Anything else what one has come to know in presence of ego is not true Jaap.

**************

Quote >>>You must have heard the word "Udam"? It occurs many times in Gurbani in various contexts. It simply means "genuine/sincere effort". <<<

This understanding is again a game of ego.

Please ponder these great Vaaks from the Gurus. Sangat does not need my explanation.

audm miq pRB AMqrjwmI ijau pRyry iqau krnw ]
"udam mat parabh antarjaamee ji-o parayray ti-o karnaa." SGGS Ang 798-19
Endeavor is the intelligence of all-knowing God. As HE inspires, does it.

Anidnu Andu BieAw mnu ibgisAw audm Bey imln kI Aws ]1]
"an-din anad bha-i-aa man bigsi-aa udam bha-ay milan kee aas." SGGS Ang 1295-5
Day and night, bliss is happing, mind forgot, endeavor happened and hope to meet.

Endeavor is a God's Act. It happens. It is not the faculty of tiny ego, as you have tried to explain in a long prose.

**************

Quote >>>Did i ever say that Ajapaa Jaap gets matured? <<<
What else this mean "The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap."

Did you want to say that the Jaap starts with the tiny ego but ends in ego-less Ajapaa Jaap?

It has never worked with anyone. It will never work with anyone.

**************

Quote >>>In Gurbani, you will not find a single line that says, "Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap". <<<

It is not the first time I have come across a person who wants to say something more than the Gurus say.

**************

Quote >>>Although "Ek" goes along with "Omkar", it is not a part of "Omkar". It is just indicative that there is only "One" like the "Omkar", that there is no other. 

Etymologically, based on Gurmukhi grammar, "Omkar" can be split up into "Om" and "kar", where "kar" means something that keeps repeating itself, such as in "Jaikar". In "Omkar", what is that which is repeating? It has to be "Om" because "kar" is attached to it. My point is that "Ek" and "kar" are describing the essential qualities of "Om", that there is only "One" like it and it "repeats forever". <<<

I pray you come to experience what it all is. I hope you have kept some place free for truth.

**************

Quote >>>So, just by offering Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani a place in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Guru Arjan Dev Ji showed the kind of respect He had for Bhaiji and his baani. Later on in His life, Guru Arjan Dev Ji declared that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Baani could be used as a "Teeka" (simplified guide) for easy understanding of Gurbani from the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji". <<<

Please provide an authentic proof. I will be grateful.

**************

Quote >>>Where have i "praised" the efforts of the ego!!? Please tell me one line in which i have "praised" it! <<<

I hope I have not understood your writing "Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress."

**************

Quote >>>A 'sword' can be used to carry out atrocities on innocent people and the same 'sword' can be used to protect the weak from evil! <<<

Just imagine. WHO is protecting persons also carrying a sword?

**************

Knowing that you are not taking anything personally is pleasant.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh


----------



## snavneet (May 20, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji. 

Balbir Ji, i am enjoying this! Please continue this wonderful discussion! 



> Thanks for sparing time and keeping the Satsang alive.


Thanks to you too my friend. I am loving it! I reply when i feel most active! 
And, i don't see anyone else getting involved in this discussion deeply. I think they should! Sikhphilosophy, knock knock! 



> Quote >>>I feel that in your last post you have misinterpreted Gurbani. <<<
> Perhaps you want to say that one understands Gurbani according to his conscious mind.


I simply said that you misinterpreted Gurbani! No strings attached. That is what i feel. And in my opinion, you are continuing to do so. One understands Gurbani truly only when one experiences what the Gurus have said. Just a conscious mind is not enough. One has to live Gurbani. That way understanding is Sahaj, it is natural. So, you can't be sure if you have got it right and the same applies to me. You are trying to use your mind to figure out Gurbani and i am using mine. But the mind is unreliable. 



> Guru Arjan Dev Ji's Vaaks are
> sB qy aUc pwey AsQwnu ]
> "sabh tay ooch paa-ay asthaan."
> He receives the highest place of all.


The highest place is no 'place' at all. You have taken it too literally. In the context of that 'Pad', place refers to the highest state a person achieves in Sahaj Avastha. 
Here is another line from Gurbani, which uses the word 'Asthaan', but not as a place. 
"Naam Bhagat Kai Sukh Asthaan".
which means
"The Naam is the home of joy for His Bhagats". 
See, how 'Naam' is refered to as an 'asthaan', symbolically. But Naam is not an 'asthaan', isn't it? So, 'asthaan' word is quite generic. It is not always used for a physical place in space. It is used to refer to non-material things too, such as 'Naam' or 'Sahaj Avastha' (ooch asthaan, as a state). The word 'asthaan' is used in so many ways in Gurbani. Study more lines from Gurbani containing this word, to improve understanding. Hope this helps. 
Gurbani is for people from all walks of life. From novices to advanced minds, all interpret Gurbani the way they want. There are as many interpretations as there are minds! I would simply say that Guruji is talking about Union with God, about the drop merging with the ocean and becoming the ocean and in that context the state (don't take it literally as place) realized would be the highest, 'a drop becoming the infinite ocean'. 




> bhuir n hovY Awvn jwnu ]
> "bahur na hovai aavan jaan." SGGS 295-18
> That does not come and leave (vary).
> 
> ...


 
'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan' is such a simple line from Gurbani. It simply means that 'Such a person gets out of the cycle of birth and death'. 'Birth' is 'Aavan' and 'Death' is 'Jaan'! I am surprised seeing you misinterpret this! Let's do one thing, let's start a new thread and try to get the opinion of others in the Sangat, just on this line from Gurbani. Let's see the response. Perhaps, that will make you think again. 
Gurbani is trying to help us to realize the state of Union with God, which is the highest state. Once One reaches that state, One does not come back into the cycle of birth and death. So, simple to understand! I wonder why you are creating worldly interpretations out of it. Please see the context in which Guruji is talking. Please read the entire Ashtpadee. Meditate on it! 
Refer to your interpretation of 'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan'. You say that Guruji is saying that "the person receives it by 'Ustat' and does not come and go from that place life long". So, if a person did God's Ustat sitting in a cave, you mean to say that he will not be able to leave that cave for his entire life! Is God trying to punish that poor man for praising Him?! Weird meanings arise if you consider the context to be pointing to a worldly place. 
In the same 'Pad' of that 'Ashtpadee', Guruji says, 
"Sukhmanee Sahaj Gobind Gunn Naam. 
Jis Mann Basai So Hoat Nidhan." 
It means, 
"The singing of the praises of the Lord (Gobind Gunn) and His Naam are responsible for the Sahaj Avastha, which is the jewel of joy (Sukhmanee). 
When the Naam abides in the mind, one becomes a treasure." 
So, all the rewards that Guruji describes after this line are for a person in whose mind the Naam of God comes to rest permanently, including the reward of freedom from the cycle of birth and death. They are not some rewards that someone can get with superficial parrot-like Ustat. 



> God would have never spoken such words through the Guru's if your interpretation is right.


 
Speak for yourself, do not speak on behalf of the Guru or God! How do you know that God would have never spoken such words through the Guru if my interpretation is right?? Do you already know God? Gurbani says that God is unfathomable, nobody can know His intentions. And suddenly you seem to know what God would have done! Wow! How can you know why God did what He did and what He would have done in a certain situation!? That is highly presumptuous of you! You speak as if you understand God! Wow! 



> ausqiq inMdw doaU iqAwgY KojY pdu inrbwnw ]
> "ustat nindaa do-oo ti-aagai khojai pad nirbaanaa." SGGS 219-3
> He renounces both praise and slandering seeking the state of Salvation.


Exactly! Here Guruji is talking about renouncing praise and slandering! Isn't that an effort required from a seeker? Or do you want God to come and snatch praise and slandering from him? If that is the case then why are so many in this world continuing to praise and slander? Why doesn't God take it away from them, since you say that no effort is needed from the seeker? Guruji says "He renounces", He doesn't say, "I make him renounce", does he? Thanks for justifying my point of view that some effort is required from the seeker! 



> Please ponder the wonderful truth through Guru Arjan Dev Ji's words.
> ausqiq krih syvk muin kyqy qyrw AMqu n kqhU pweIAY ]
> "ustat karahi sayvak mun kaytay tayraa ant na kathoo paa-ee-ai." SGGS Ang 528-15
> So many servants and silent sages do Ustat. They do not reach your end.


This is exactly what i have been trying to say through all those posts. Forget the sages, even the realized Ones cannot find God's end! Because if there was an end to God, Gurbani wouldn't have called Him infinite ('Beant')! 
Again, over here, effort is being put by those sewaks and sages while doing Ustat, isn't it? I know what you will say, that Ustat cannot help one to reach God. I say that anything can help one to reach God, provided one is totally involved in that act. If you are doing Sumiran, do it totally. If you are doing Keertan, do it totally. If you are doing His Ustat in any manner, do it totally. If you are dancing in His love, do it totally! Total involvement, total devotion, total one-pointedness is a pre-requisite! 



> Strange you say that they reach the state by Ustat (praise) and ask. "Isn't that Mukti?"


When did i say that 'Ustat' is a state!? You are taking liberties here! You are assuming things that i never said! This is what i have to say. Praise or Ustat of God is an 'Act'. If one is totally 'one-pointed' (devoted) in that act then even Ustat is capable of taking one to the door of God! 
Now, to the the point of why, and in what context, i asked the question, 'Isn't that Mukti?' 
I spoke of Gurbani saying, 'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan', which according to me means '(Such a person) gets out of the cycle of birth and death'. Now, getting out of the cycle of birth and death is Mukti. If my interpretation is right then my question is right too! Let's get the opinion of the sikhphilosophy sangat on this line from Gurbani. Do i have permission to do that Balbir Ji? Better still, why don't you approach the 'Panj Pyaaras' (whom Guruji considered as the Guru, in order to take Amrit Himself), and ask them what that line means. I am sure Guruji will enlighten you through them! Please try it! 



> In my experience, it is true that the awareness of Chit is the result of True Simran.


Your experience? In the sense that you have experienced total awareness? Or are you just talking about heightened awareness during Sumiran? Well, to just reach a state of heightened awareness, many other techniques can do the trick, for example, 'Ustat'! Try it! That's my experience! Praising God through Keertan has raised my awareness manifold, always! Just as well as Sumiran! 



> The statement "One-pointedness is all that matter" is not correct. I feel all know what one-pointedness is. Where do they stick up?


Although, i did not quote that directly, i still support that entirely. All my posts are indicative of that. Only 'total devotion', only 'one-pointedness in devotion' to God can please the Guru. I don't think anybody can object to that statement. So, why do you say it is not correct? How can you be so certain? How can you totally rely on your mind for that, when Guruji has asked us to 'win over' or 'kill' our mind? I really want the sikhphilosophy sangat to give their opinions on this! 
You say that all know about one-pointedness! My dear there is a big difference between 'knowing' and 'putting it into practice'. I know about so many things, does that mean i have realized those things? I know Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a state of Union with God, but just by knowing do i experience that state? Just by knowing 'one-pointedness' do i become 'one-pointed'? Is this so hard to understand? 



> Quote from your Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 is >>>The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<
> 
> Quote from your Post #39 dated 05-19-2006 is >>>We may talk of the journey of the mind but not the journey of the soul because the journey of the soul never began and will never end . . . For example, your body started its journey when you were born at some time and place and it will end its journey when you will die at some time and place. This example is from the grosser world. The mind, which is subtler, also has a journey, which is just in time, nevertheless it is a journey in the literal sense. A day will come when you will become 'no-mind', when you will become enlightened, that will be the end of the journey for the mind. <<<
> 
> ...


Jaap is finite. Jaap stops once Ajapaa Jaap is heard. How can one continue to do Jaap when the most wonderful Jaap of God, the 'Ajapaa Jaap' is heard? There would be no need! Ajapaa Jaap which permeates the whole of Creation is infinite, without beginning and end. 
God is in the Jaap of His Naam, as done by Him. This Jaap, as set forth by Him, is the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. God is in this Ajapaa Jaap, which is the foundation of Creation. 
In the form of the 'Ajapaa Jaap', God permeates the whole of His Creation. He is also in our Jaap (very subtly, deep down), but we have to reach the foundation, our centre, in order to see God in our Jaap. Even Maya is God's Creation, even Maya is within His Hukam. So anything arising out of Maya is also within His Hukam. Our Jaap may arise out of our ego, which arises out of Maya, but still, the base that it is resting on is God. If the wall of ego separating us from God disappears then our Jaap merges into the Ajapaa Jaap. Only the Ajapaa Jaap remains forever. 



> Quote >>>So, you mean to say that the ego of a person and Jaap cannot co-exist? Anybody who starts Jaap, starts also with an ego. <<<
> 
> Yes. True Jaap cannot begin in presence of ego. Also, ego is never tiny.


'True Jaap' is the Jaap done by God. It is the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. The 'Ultimate Jaap'. Nothing else can be called 'True Jaap' because some bit of ego always remains in our Jaap. Only after the ego is finally extinguished by the Guru, do we begin to hear the Ajapaa Jaap. Our Jaap no longer exists, because 'we' no longer exist. Since we merge into the whole, our 'Jaap' also merges with the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. 
Haven't you ever met people who have very little ego? Haven't you met someone humbler than you? It means that he is relatively less egoistic than you, isn't it? So, ego can be less or more. Some people are very egoistic, like 'Harnaakash' who tortured his own son 'Prahlaad'. 'Prahlaad' had a very tiny (subtle) ego, He was the embodiment of humility, like many other Bhagats, hence God came as 'Narsimhaa' to destroy 'Harnaakash' once and for all because 'Harnaakash' was about to kill God's loved devotee 'Prahlaad'. And Gurbani says that God always comes to protect those who totally surrender to His Will. 
Ego can be big! And ego can be tiny! And ego can be everything in between! Try to understand. I feel i cannot make it simpler than this! You want more examples, the history of spirituality is bleeding with examples from very big egos to very little egos! 
Remaining Sangat of Sikhphilosophy, please get involved! 



> Quote >>>Moreover, i never said that the first two stages of Jaap demand 100% effort from the meditator. <<<
> 
> In my experience, most of the people in this world do not come to the wisdom of Jaap. Just because they are sure that nothing will work without their tiny ego. Jaap is 100% effort of God through the Guru right from the first step. Anything else what one has come to know in presence of ego is not true Jaap.


'Jaap is 100% effort of God through the Guru'!! This is the first time i have heard that God has to put efforts to get something done! Wow! The ones who realize God become effortless and God still has to put efforts, wow! How does that stick up?! 
(Answer yes or no)
(1) Have you come to the wisdom of Jaap? 
(2) Do you have an ego? 
If the answer to both those questions is 'yes' then what you have said above in your statement is wrong! 
And please don't mix up 'Jaap' with 'True Jaap'. 'Jaap' is something that we do. And 'True Jaap' or 'Ajapaa Jaap' is something that is happening due to God. 



> Quote >>>You must have heard the word "Udam"? It occurs many times in Gurbani in various contexts. It simply means "genuine/sincere effort". <<<
> 
> This understanding is again a game of ego.


Wow! So, when i understand something, then it is a 'game of ego', hmm? 
And when you understand something then it is not? Who figured that out? 
Go through these line from Gurbani once again:
"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means, 
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart." 
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)
Is Guruji also playing a game of ego, talking about 'genuine effort' required from a seeker during 'Naam-Jap'?! 
If you are not without ego then how can you be so sure that what 'you' have understood is also not 'a game of the ego'?



> Please ponder these great Vaaks from the Gurus. Sangat does not need my explanation.
> 
> audm miq pRB AMqrjwmI ijau pRyry iqau krnw ]
> "udam mat parabh antarjaamee ji-o parayray ti-o karnaa." SGGS Ang 798-19
> Endeavor is the intelligence of all-knowing God. As HE inspires, does it.


How do you know that Sangat does not need your explanation? Isn't that presumptuous of you? I request you to just speak for yourself! No offense meant! 
And, am i not part of the Sangat too? How do you know that i do not need an explanation?! Maybe you are right, i don't! But how do you know? Are you antarjamee too? 
Well, if you don't want to explain, then i will explain it to the Sangat as i understand it. 
The word 'Prayrnaa' means 'Inspiration'. You got that right! And that is what i have been trying to explain for so long! That God and Guru guide us, inspire us, tell us about the right techniques and then we have got to follow them, put some efforts into what they say! 
The above line from Gurbani says, 
'Jio Prayray Tio Karnaa'.
'Prayray' is derived from 'Prayrnaa'. The above line means, 'As He inspires, that way they (or we) do'. And you have simply stated 'He inspires, does it'. Does that mean anything? He inspires Himself? For what? He is already perfect. Why would He need inspiration from Himself? And that too to 'Do' something?! He can inspire someone who is not perfect. He can inspire His imperfect children who seek salvation. That is what Guruji is trying to tell us. 
In its entirety the line means:
'Sincere effort and intelligence come from all-knowing God (as inspiration), as He inspires that way they (or we) do'. 
Isn't this closer to what Guruji is trying to tell us? Sangat Ji decide? 



> Anidnu Andu BieAw mnu ibgisAw audm Bey imln kI Aws ]1]
> "an-din anad bha-i-aa man bigsi-aa udam bha-ay milan kee aas." SGGS Ang 1295-5
> Day and night, bliss is happing, mind forgot, endeavor happened and hope to meet.
> 
> Endeavor is a God's Act. It happens. It is not the faculty of tiny ego, as you have tried to explain in a long prose.


Wow, i haven't seen Gurbani misinterpreted, mistranslated and mis-presented like this in a long time! Read your translation in one go and you will know why i say this. 
Is the meaning of 'Bigsi-aa' equal to 'forgot'!? I thought 'Bisariaa' was forgot! Now, almost anybody can tell you that! Again, my point here is that if you could make a mistake while translating one word, don't you think your interpretations of Gurbani could also be at fault? Please, seriously, think about this! 
'Bigasiaa' literally means 'blossomed forth'! See the difference. You interpreted it as 'forgot' when the actual meaning is to 'blossom forth'! What a difference between, 'mind forgot' and 'mind has blossomed forth'! Not even the same context! 
You say 'Endeavor is God's act'! God needs to endeavor? For what? Has God ever come to you personally and told you that? I don't think so. But indeed, God can inspire us through those who have realized Him, like the Gurus. 
According to me, the above line means, 
'Day and night, bliss is happening (to me), (my) mind has blossomed forth, efforts are happening, (i) yearn to unite with my Lord'. 
If you set a wheel turning, does it stop moving immediately when you leave it? In fact, if there was no friction of any kind, the wheel would keep turning forever. Once one puts genuine efforts with the help of the Satguru, the wheel starts turning and then it keeps turning if we just remain Gurmukhs and follow the Guru. Hence, we may say that 'efforts happen', in the sense that the wheel keeps turning. The friction is created by our minds, but with the guidance of the Guru and genuine efforts by the Sikh the friction is eradicated and the wheel shall keep turning till it reaches its destination! 
First you called my replies, a 'Veda', now 'long prose', i wonder what's coming next! You tell me to explain things all the time. How can i explain without 'long prose'?! 


> Quote >>>Did i ever say that Ajapaa Jaap gets matured? <<<
> What else this mean "The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap."
> 
> Did you want to say that the Jaap starts with the tiny ego but ends in ego-less Ajapaa Jaap?
> ...


Amazing! You seem to know everyone throughout history! It is so easy for you to say that, 'It has never worked with anyone. It will never work with anyone'. Again, i would like to ask, how can you be so sure? Are you one with God already? Are you 'ghat ghat ke antarjaamee' like God, hmm?! 
What i simply meant by the line, 'The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap' is the following: 
We begin doing Jaap while our ego is still with us. I do Jaap and i know i have an ego. And i also know that it is diminishing. With the Guru's guidance and with genuine efforts which i will have to put in, i hope to eradicate it totally some day. Whenever that day comes, i would hear the Ajapaa Jaap permanently! 



> Quote >>>In Gurbani, you will not find a single line that says, "Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap". <<<
> 
> It is not the first time I have come across a person who wants to say something more than the Gurus say.


Woah! Isn't that what i said? That you will not find a single line saying that 'Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap'. When did i assert that line? I said that one will 'not find' such a straight-forward line of equating the two phrases in Gurbani! After that i even explained how i came to the conclusion, that both 'Ek Omkar' and 'Ajapaa Jaap' refer to the same idea, through my understanding. Just look over your posts, how many times have you linked lines from Gurbani with your understanding and tried to prove a point!? If you can do that then why can't somebody else? This is not fair, Balbir Ji! 
My friend, to understand what the Gurus have said, first of all a person has to understand many languages, above that, one has to be able to decipher all the poetic constructs of Gurbani. A lot goes into the interpretation of Gurbani. And not everyone can interpret it in the exact same way. Everyone is trying. I am trying to interpret Gurbani based on my understanding. You are doing it in your way. And here we both are trying to share our understanding with everyone. You are the one who keeps asking, 'Please explain', 'Please elaborate'! To elaborate, i will have to say something more! I will have to link statements from Gurbani and add whatever i have understood! How else can one elaborate? Please, at least acknowledge that! You have been asking questions 90% of the time, try elaborating for once and you will know what i mean! 
Moreover, have you 'come across your own self'?! You are talking of coming across other people who say more than the Gurus have said. What about you? Do you understand everything that the Gurus have said? They said it out of enlightenment. And as far as i know, you are not enlightened. Or are you? If not then your understanding will definitely be short of Guruji's understanding, however hard you try. The same thing applies to me too. So, please don't say that you have come across other people who try to say more than the Gurus, as if you know everything that the Gurus have said, and that you never do that yourself! 



> Quote >>>Although "Ek" goes along with "Omkar", it is not a part of "Omkar". It is just indicative that there is only "One" like the "Omkar", that there is no other.
> 
> Etymologically, based on Gurmukhi grammar, "Omkar" can be split up into "Om" and "kar", where "kar" means something that keeps repeating itself, such as in "Jaikar". In "Omkar", what is that which is repeating? It has to be "Om" because "kar" is attached to it. My point is that "Ek" and "kar" are describing the essential qualities of "Om", that there is only "One" like it and it "repeats forever".
> <<<
> I pray you come to experience what it all is. I hope you have kept some place free for truth.


I thank you for your kind gesture. You prayed for me. Many thanks to you. 
But, Balbir ji, firstly you ask me to 'Please explain', 'Please elaborate' all the time, and when i do explain what i have understood, you start talking like as if Guruji came and told you i was wrong! 
And talking of 'keeping some place free for truth'. You surely mean that whatever place i now have is full of falsities, don't you? How do you know that what i have understood is false? If you are certain that it is false then please justify yourself. What if my understanding is acceptable to the Guru? Is there any way for you to know? What if my understanding of 'Ek Omkar' arose out of many years of Sumiran? What if i realized it in a Sahaj manner through the Guru? Do you know how i came to that understanding? I am sure you don't. Say whatever you want to say about your experience with 100% surity and i won't object. But don't comment in this way about other's experience, that too after asking them to share their understanding. 



> Quote >>>So, just by offering Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani a place in "Aad Granth Sahib Ji", Guru Arjan Dev Ji showed the kind of respect He had for Bhaiji and his baani. Later on in His life, Guru Arjan Dev Ji declared that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Baani could be used as a "Teeka" (simplified guide) for easy understanding of Gurbani from the "Aad Granth Sahib Ji". <<<
> 
> Please provide an authentic proof. I will be grateful.


Think of the reason why Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani is sung in 'The Golden Temple' and in the Gurudwaaras all across the world. Did people suddenly start doing that due to a whim? This has been happening since Guruji's time, since the time He was present to witness it happening. I hope that is enough of a proof for you. 



> Quote >>>Where have i "praised" the efforts of the ego!!? Please tell me one line in which i have "praised" it! <<<
> 
> I hope I have not understood your writing "Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress."


Yes, you have not understood my writing! 
Read my posts once again. As a ready reference, i am reposting certain things here. 
Bhai Gurdas Ji's Shabad, "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA Aagey Hoe Laet Hai". 
I have informed you that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani was acceptable to Guruji as a Teeka, but now you want a proof, to which i have supplied adequate proof i think. So, if you find no way to refute that, i am sure you will try to translate the above line in such a way that it justifies your view. And this cycle will never end!
I have given you direct examples from Gurbani, consider these: 
"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means, 
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart." 
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)
"Udam Karat Seetal Mann Bhaey." 
which means, 
"By putting in genuine efforts, the mind became calm and quiet." 
When you don't have a direct reply against an argument, you just ignore it and post some other lines from Gurbani and try to justify yourself. And i have given replies to each one of your justifications based on my understanding of Gurbani. In the last post, you even mistranslated "blossoming forth of the mind" as "mind forgot", which cannot be a typing mistake. Your translation of the word 'Bigasiaa' is not even close to a literal translation of it! If such a mistranslation can happen then don't you think that you could have mistranslated other lines from Gurbani too? Please try to be a little more flexible and maybe we will be able to learn something in the process. 
And, i have explained my support in favour of 'Genuine effort in following the Guru' so many times, in such detail. And you have not responded well at all. You are still stuck with one single line from my initial post. To support that line i have given so many arguments and you haven't replied fairly. 
By the way, with respect to apparent controversies arising in the minds of amateur seekers, where is your reply to, "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey"? You have ignored it and replied without any mention. Maybe you are still looking for a way to justify this in your way. 



> Quote >>>A 'sword' can be used to carry out atrocities on innocent people and the same 'sword' can be used to protect the weak from evil! <<<
> 
> Just imagine. WHO is protecting persons also carrying a sword?


What i stated about the sword is such a simple and generic idea! 
Guruji has transformed so many people who earlier used their powers to harm people and later used the same powers to help them. Isn't that enough to support this analogy with a sword? 
Guru Nanak Dev Ji transformed 'Kaudaa Raakhshas' into a saint! This person used to fry people alive and later eat them using his powers. And Guruji transformed him into a humble sewak. The same sword that used to kill people started protecting them. 
Guru Gobind Singh Ji transformed 'Madho Das' into 'Banda Singh Bahadur Ji'. Earlier he used to insult saints visiting his village. People who did not bow down to his ego had to face his wrath. After one meeting with Guruji, he was transformed. He became a 'destroyer of evil' and a 'protector of the weak, defenseless and downtrodden'. Again, an 'evil' sword was transformed into a 'good' one. 
Let's see what you come up with. 



> Knowing that you are not taking anything personally is pleasant.


Balbir Ji. I can assure you that i am not hurt by anything you said. And i hope that i have not hurt you unknowingly. 
I am trying to contribute to a healthy discussion/debate, from which everyone in the Sangat could learn or maybe unlearn something! 
By the way, don't be in a hurry to reply because then you tend to miss many of the questions that i ask. And by all means, continue to be totally frank. 

Best wishes.  
Bhull Chukk Di Khimaa Mangdaa Haan.


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## Archived_member2 (May 21, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Beings in the world come and go. So is it with everything including places (asthaan). I feel Gurus sometime attract a Saadhak with his deep-rooted wishes. They assure that on God's way all wishes get fulfilled. The use of the words 'the high place', Ridhi, Sidhi and Nidhi in this Pauri are in the same sense, in my view. Every worldly person wishes not only possession of these but their stability too. 
What a person reaches in life, it does not matter. All is left behind, also every asthaan but Naam. 
Yet according to you it is not so with a high asthaan reached by Ustat.

I did not meet any person who is not praising God. 
Your views are "They are not some rewards that someone can get with superficial parrot-like Ustat."
Please explain what a non parrot like Ustat is without blaming a seeker.

**************

Thanks for your suggestion >>>Better still, why don't you approach the 'Panj Pyaaras' <<<

I hope you are not suggesting me to forget ONE.  Panj Pyaaras try to approach whom even.

**************

Quote >>>I know Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a state of Union with God, but just by knowing do i experience that state? Just by knowing 'one-pointedness' do i become 'one-pointed'? <<<

Your Posts give an impression that you know so many words. 

**************

Quote >>>Jaap stops once Ajapaa Jaap is heard. <<<

May I ask what continues in Ajapaa Jaap? Why they call it Ajapaa Jaap when Jaap stops before Ajapaa Jaap starts?

**************

Please do not ask personal questions. I feel one preferably needs to know God.

**************

Quote >>>Remaining Sangat of Sikhphilosophy, please get involved! <<<

Canvassing for votes and shouting slogans does not help reaching truth.

**************

Quote >>>'Jaap is 100% effort of God through the Guru'!! This is the first time i have heard that God has to put efforts to get something done! Wow! The ones who realize God become effortless and God still has to put efforts, wow! How does that stick up?! <<<

The Guru is singing "naanak hukmai jay bujhai ta ha-umai kahai na ko-ay." SGGS Ang 1
Nanak, who comes to know Hukam then ego does not say anyone. 

It is surprising. Still, some go on singing songs of tiny efforts. Perhaps they are waiting to realize Hukam.

All is God, also His Efforts. This is what Truth feels like.

**************

Quote >>>"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means, 
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart." <<<

This is a wonderful Vaak from Gurdev. I do not find a place for tiny ego (effort) in "Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada." The benevolent effort is among all efforts. Jiya chants the name of Hari always. The blessed ones realize God in all His Efforts, other their ego.

**************

Quote >>>Is the meaning of 'Bigsi-aa' equal to 'forgot'!? I thought 'Bisariaa' was forgot! <<<

'Bigsi-aa' means reaching evolution. This word when used for mind (man) states its unfolding. Mind through True Simran reaches the evolution of non existence. God is realized forgetting mind.
 We transcend it fully when unfolded completely. I tried to explain this state of mind in short. 
Realizing the presence of mind, in any form, one cannot watch Prabhu.

Mind is not a flower. Neither it blossoms like a flower as some have translated it.

**************

Quote >>>Think of the reason why Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani is sung in 'The Golden Temple' and in the Gurudwaaras all across the world. Did people suddenly start doing that due to a whim? This has been happening since Guruji's time, since the time He was present to witness it happening. <<<

Some assert to have discovered truth because they saw many people practicing something as ritual.

**************


You wished to know my views about Guru's Vaak "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey."

All His creation is God Himself also things that look opposite. God is the Origin of Darkness (Andhkaar) and Light (Tej) both. This is why HE is Andhkaare and Tejey both. Bowing alone to one of the above is not bowing completely.

By the way 'Namo' is not bowing what people know as 'Mathaa Tayk'.

**************

I have a small request. Please do not seek and collect mistakes from others. One may learn from those though.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh


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## danishines (May 22, 2006)

Just as you brush and bathe each day, taking time out to think of God. One owes the Creator a gift, that gift can be willing meditation.
Meditation does not mean reciting holy words again & again.  Meditation is just sitting down and observe feelng inside one self. It is a path of knowing Self.
It is through meditation One creates the causes for the release of the bondage of this loveable reflection of God within self. As you forget your little self (the ego) and focus on the needs of the soul, you find the lilting song of the Divine wafting into the inner recesses of your heart. 
Meditation is food for the soul. Life becomes a musical rendition, in the canticle of which you create your own successful tune. 
Regards
Manvir 


			
				il_sikh said:
			
		

> WJKK, WJKF!
> I know that the way to salvation is meditation on God. But I'm just wondering _how_ is that actually done? Is it like other eastern faiths (like Buddhism, Jainism), sitting and reciting Waheguru over and over, or is there more to it? _How_ do we, as Sikhs, meditate on God? I realise being conciously aware of what you're doing, being calm, etc. is required. But what else? I apologise if a lot of that is redundant. Thanks for your help,
> Justin
> justin_lundeen@khalsa.com


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## Archived_member2 (May 22, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and Satsriakal!
Danishines Ji!

Thanks for your post.

Quote >>>Meditation does not mean reciting holy words again & again. <<<

Do recitations of holy words play any role?

Quote >>>Meditation is just sitting down and observe feelng inside one self. It is a path of knowing Self. <<<

Is meditation only possible while sitting? Is a path available to human beings to move or sit?

Please explain.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (May 22, 2006)

Dear Balbir Ji and Savneet Ji


Just to let you know that I following the disscusions 

At the moment I dont feel like asking anything as I am geting my answers!


Jatinder Singh


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## Anoop (May 23, 2006)

There are so many ways to meditate to the mighty lord god. The thing is, it depends on your mood, and level of godness. For example, there are many different ways, if your a sikh, and you have passion for music, then you might aswell start of with shabad. You got to have passion for these things, and only then can your experience start. Remember, your not alone, god loves us all, and god is the pure self of you.


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## danishines (May 24, 2006)

What is mediatton? 
Meditation is in its experience. Each one has different  experiences.

In meditation we touch the yarn of the fabric of the Creator and awaken to the glory of His creation. We understand that our minds are but part of His mind, our breath is but a manifestation of His life, and our thoughts are but His power flowing through us. We comprehend that our voice was given to hum His glory, our hands to do His work, and our hearts, to feel Him through the glow of His love. 

Likewise, using holy words  during mediation, some people able to feel connected with God. Others without holy words are connected. Its all about individual, how he wants to be connected.

Mediation does not mean sitting is issolation , It is possible while walking , talking or doing any other work. Most of the time we are either thinking what happened in past or  concerned about future. Meditation brings awareness & bring the mind to the Present. 

Regards
Manvir





			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Pray Truth for all and Satsriakal!
> Danishines Ji!
> Thanks for your post.
> Quote >>>Meditation does not mean reciting holy words again & again. <<<
> ...


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## Anoop (May 24, 2006)

Exactly, people have different methods to approach god. The thing is, you cant just always urge yourself to meet god. Sometimes when you do to much you stress yourself out. 

In sikhism, there were methods which were suitable to those people at that time. We all have busy lives, you cant just sit around all day and meditate. Thats what i used to think. We cant be like saints because we have not got the time. And there is also nothing to regret for aswell. 

The thing is, if you are already a sikh, then you should follow the religion in the way you can, not as how other people can, but the way your capable of. Experiencing and communicating with god is a personal thing. 

There were reasons why people do what the gurus told them to do. But as life is changing, and people are not pure in heart, though the world is perfect, as we are the people who take things wrongly as it is our mind tha says it, so to is it with the development of praying to god.

IF it says in sikhism to do this, to do that... think first if you are capable of doing it. The sikhism is ofcourse the ultimate way to preach god, but the time in your life would be limited due to work, and other things. 


You dont have to try hard to reach god, its actually as if your forcing yourself when there is no need.

Listen to shabad, if you have passion for it. Meditate lightly and one pointedness towards god. Do everything in the heart, just don't rush it. 

People are different, and all in all leads to the same ultimate god. 


We say people should become sikhi but we are always forgeting that, this world is already perfect the way it is. Its only us that take things wrong, its our mind. God is in your heart, and that concentration you get when meditating is god. God is the silence the fearless and all existing. You would have confidence in your concious when you think you have found god. 

Just relax and the way to pray to god, is by meditating the best way you can, and read as much as you can, but slowly (sri guru granth sahib ji), etc. Lisen to shabad, the ones that make you feel more inspiring.

PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT FEELINGS TOWARDS GOD...GOD IS YOUR INNER STATE WHICH IS HARD TO DESCRIBE ,BUT IS FULL OF LOVE.


G O O D L U C K and B E S T of W I S H E S


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## Archived_member2 (May 24, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Manvir Ji!

Quote >>>Meditation is in its experience. Each one has different experiences. <<<
Is this the reason people have different Gods and religions?

Quote >>>In meditation we touch the yarn of the fabric of the Creator and awaken to the glory of His creation. We understand that our minds are but part of His mind, our breath is but a manifestation of His life, and our thoughts are but His power flowing through us. We comprehend that our voice was given to hum His glory, our hands to do His work, and our hearts, to feel Him through the glow of His love. <<<
Thanks for soothing words. I have read those often earlier too. Please explain how it becomes possible to taste it?

Quote >>>Likewise, using holy words during mediation, some people able to feel connected with God. Others without holy words are connected. Its all about individual, how he wants to be connected. <<<
Is it true that an individual need to wish it and it works?

Quote >>>Most of the time we are either thinking what happened in past or concerned about future. Meditation brings awareness & bring the mind to the Present. <<<
Have I understood it correctly? No thoughts are existing right now.

Thanks.

**************

Anoop Ji!
You wrote "In sikhism, there were methods which were suitable to those people at that time."
Are those methods no more suitable for the people now?

Quote >>>IF it says in sikhism to do this, to do that... think first if you are capable of doing it. <<<
Should a person do something to become capable? Please explain.

Quote >>>People are different, and all in all leads to the same ultimate god. <<<
It is surprising why people are trying to reach God when everything is God.

Quote >>>PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT FEELINGS TOWARDS GOD <<<
I have heard God feels same toward all.

Quote >>>GOD IS YOUR INNER STATE WHICH IS HARD TO DESCRIBE ,BUT IS FULL OF LOVE. <<<
They hear God saying "All is my outer state easily described in full of love."

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## Anoop (May 24, 2006)

Good afternoon Balbir singh ji,

I really respect sikhism,

i was in situations where i didnt know ho wto connect to god, and i actually got depressed, because i thought that god was my only hope, and nothing in the world is going right for me. I thought that i can definately meet god just like that, and then on the other hand, i thought that i will never be able to see the divine light.

The thing, is accepting is another thing, you cant just keep on accepting the truth in sikhism. If you keep accepting you will become weak and make yourself inferior.

The thing is, where ever a person is from, that is what the way you pray to god depends on. In india, the old people in the pind for example, have nothing to do. But they should be acting like saints. Instead, there is so much lazyness going on. Ofcourse they are poor but, they have the time, infact enough time to spend on meditating. The people are not strong enough.

Whereas the modern western world, many of us who are sikhs, but are gurmukhs, we should ofcourse carry on where we left of reading the sri guru greanth sahib ji etc. But we should realise that, we taking sikhism as an act, and nothing more but an act.

The way it says to pray in the guru granth sahibjhi, its suitable to those people who were in Need of faith and guidance particularly in the 18th century. The thing is, we dont need to do everything that it says in the holy scriptures because life already is ok and going well. Sikhism was not particularly a religion, it was an action that god wanted to help the people. The gurus became god, and god words came out of them. Right now, we do everything selfishly, we say do this in sikhism, read this, and you will see god. The thing is, why cant we be happy of life the way it is. Instead of concentrating so much in thinking to pray to god we end up making sikhism as an act rather then helping the world. 

Im not against sikhism. I actually realised what sikhism really was. It was from god to inform people what to do.

It is up to you to decide how god wants you to make you realise him. Yes people have different ways in going towards god. Im just saying, you dont have to do everything in sikhism to realise god. We dont need all of it because there is no crisis in the world for us. We dont need to be 'too' pure. 

The main thing is do everything for the love of god, unconditional love. 

Meditation can surely be enough  to realise god if done with one pointed mind to god. It is done by connecting your mind and heart with god. God is the extreme concious the inner concious that always existed and is the ultimate truth. It brings love and the real main religions in the world are love and fear.

Meditating helps to overcome fear and bring love. Love conquers fear.

People reach god to make sure and never forget his presence, thats why they do everything. The problem is, people start to go over the top and actually do what it has been told in many religions.

Thats why we stay unsatisfied because it dont work for all of us. Look at how many people follow sikhism, and yet, they havent followed it properly and there is no time for them to become like the gurus. Thats because we dont need to!!

The thing is we can learn from the guru granth sahib ji, because even by reading one page from it, it is more then enough for us to realise god.

That time people didn't have the knowledge of god.

This age is for us sikhs to learn about the gurus and why they used such ways to meditate. Look at baba deep singh ji, and the gurus, it wasnt a miracle what had happened that led to unseen situations. It was because they were to pure, and devoted to much into god. It was needed in that time.

We can learn from these god saints and gurus.

You have to have passion to follow sikhism. If you can handle everything its ok. Pray to god the way you should with ur mind and heart.

The truth is always there. There is so much acting but not enough action, we follow alot but the end result has no point.


There is always a reason why religions were formed. Sikhism should be respected as it was from god.

Do everything that suits you. You have to gain knowledge and then have understanding and then take action.

Meditation is the basic and is enough for people, whereas people who have less spiritual devotion towards god, then yes, they should follow sikhism.

It depends on how your able to cope with it.

God is all of us. Remember god, and accept what you can do...

have passion for the inner subconcious god...the divine light...


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## Anoop (May 24, 2006)

Balbir ji,

What ever you have passion for...for example if you like listening to passionate music then turn that in a way you remember god each day. God is the one supreme concious. Its not outside, its infact more inside then we can even imagine. Its the toal silence and bright light which is behind everything. The light is full of immense love, and undescribable. It is beyond thinking, and uses telepathic communication. It is sweet, it is rich, it is passionate with total love, and protection.


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## Anoop (May 24, 2006)

Has anyone realised that in irder to do something you must have love for it. That is how things work, love is what exists all along, we block the love by goin towards physically rather the spiritualy inside.

For me, i remember god, by knowing that god is fearless and love, i know god is there all along.

Now i connect myself to god by knowing that it is the inner super concious. So in order to make me meet the inner god state, i have to have love in order to pass it. So i start of by listening to shabad. The shabad keeps my inspiration and faith of god rising, so each time i meditate it becomes easier for me to meet the divine light. When you are meditating, you havent seen anythin of god, and you wont notice, because god is undescribable and unlimited. The unlimited love is to immense.

Now look at why there is sikhism, you say your a sikh but do you even know where sikhism leads to.

You say people should be sikh etc, do you think the world is not rite?

Ofcourse this world isnt the divine way because otherwise there wouldnt be any questioning about what god is or who god is. 

But since this life is growing, we can help ourselves by realising why religions had occured.

Im saying, that ofcourse sikhism is rite, and the religion is from the ultimate god.

If it wasn't for guru nanak dev ji meditating in his heart his inner divine god belief, there wouldnt have been sikhism, and if it wernt for the situations that occured the moghul empire and hindus and muslims having conflicts, its all about situation. Its about god appearing at the rite situation at the rite time.

Now the same goes for yourself. Is there alot of trouble in this world for you to be a sikh! Are you doing it because you are not sure where you are heading?

If you really need a divine aspect of god, and cannot find god at all, then go towards sikhism. Carry on if you need it. In todays world  many of us dont need to go in depth of sikhism. And im not saying that sikhism is not needed, its just that, it was all in gods hand to begin with. So why do we have to go in depth of it, its only our own thinking to become sikh.

It depends on you, if you need help or if you are suitable to become sikh.

Its all gods love, so dont worry, stop listening to other people, god is very personal. 

Dont fall into the trap, persuading people to be sikh or trying your hard is just like an act. Its not really gods love u became sikh, its just a way of you trying to avoid conflicts in life.

Stay true if your a sikh, if you cant cope with it then do what god is tellin you to do. 

We are already immortal, we are gods extention. 

It all depends on the person. Sikhism developed from god, and there is a reason for sikhism. Same goes with other beliefs. The problem with today's world is that people just say they want to become sikh, because they avoid listenin to their inner god self and think it will be easier for them to avoid conflicts in life.

Dont go on reading gurbani if you dont mean to. Dont read it if you cant understand the truth behind it.

Same with meditation. Dont say waheguru waheguru if you cant. If your the one who find it easier to say weaheguru and gaina ccess to god, then that is suitable to you.

People have different levels of gods love in them. Some may need sikhism to help them, some may find it better to gain interest and listen to shabad. It depends on the person, it depends on how inspiring the music of god is for you.

People are different. God is what already exists, remember that, it is what is beyond and behind everything.

So never stress, but know what you are trying to traget before you actually start to target it.


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## snavneet (May 24, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.  

Balbir Ji! How are you today? 
I am sorry for the late reply. 
Couldn't find time to log on to Sikhphilosophy. 



> Beings in the world come and go. So is it with everything including places (asthaan). I feel Gurus sometime attract a Saadhak with his deep-rooted wishes. They assure that on God's way all wishes get fulfilled. The use of the words 'the high place', Ridhi, Sidhi and Nidhi in this Pauri are in the same sense, in my view. Every worldly person wishes not only possession of these but their stability too.
> What a person reaches in life, it does not matter. All is left behind, also every asthaan but Naam.
> Yet according to you it is not so with a high asthaan reached by Ustat.


All the 'high places', Ridhees, Sidhees, Nidhees, freedom from the cycle of birth and death, etc. etc. in that 'pad' of the 'Ashtpadee' are a result of Naam coming to rest permanently in the mind of a devotee. Please read that 'pad' properly and completely before extending this debate. 
'Asthaan' is not always used for a place. And the context in which it is used is important. 
See what you said in an earlier post: '(Balbir Ji to snavneet) I pray you come to experience what it all is. I hope you have kept some place free for truth.' 
See, how you have used the word 'place' here? I am sure you are not talking about a physical place. Truth is not a physical commodity that can be kept somewhere. Truth is abstract and the place you are asking me to keep available for it, is also abstract. Don't you agree? Your own line contradicts your arguments about the word place or asthaan. 
My point is that you yourself have used the word 'place' with respect to something that is not physical. 
For example: Consider the word 'sweet'. I can say to someone, 'Your smile is so sweet'. Doesn't mean i am talking about the taste of the smile. It is the quality of sweetness that arises within me when i see the smile of that person. I may also say, 'Sugar is sweet'. Here the word 'sweet' is being used with respect to the physcial taste of a material object. I may say, 'Wow! Sumiran is such a sweet experience'. Here, Sumiran is not an object that has material sweetness, but it is something that can give an experience of sweetness within. This same word can be used for so many other things. Think about it. Please. Don't be in a hurry. Try to look at all this with an open mind. 
Similarly, if you explore Gurbani you will find that the word 'Asthaan' has been used in various contexts. 
Gurbani asks a devotee, 
"Kavan Asthaan Jo Kabhu Na Taray."
which means, 
"Which is that place that never perishes." 
My point here is that Gurbani talks about a place that never perishes in the above line. It's not the talk of some physical place, nevertheless, the word 'place' is used. The word 'place' is used in Gurbani because the human mind can relate easily with ideas in 'space' and 'time', but not of something beyond them. So, when Guruji has to talk of some state that a true devotee reaches, He sometimes uses the word place or asthaan to denote the same thing. 
Now consider another line from Gurbani, talking about a 'place' in the mind, 
"Agam Roop Ka Mann Mah Thaanaa."
which means,
"The Unfathomable Lord has His 'place' in the mind." 
Here again, Guruji is talking of a 'place' in the mind. 'Thaanaa' means place, it is derived from 'Asthaanaa'. So, is Guruji saying that God is in a place, a physical place as you have interpreted the word Asthaan or Thaanaa? No, Guruji is talking about a 'state of mind' over here but he uses the word 'place' instead of 'state'. Again, this is an example of the same word meaning different things in different contexts. 
I hope you come to appreciate the many uses of a word, not only in Gurbani but in general speech as well. I can give you countless examples. But i know why it is so hard for you to accept! 
Moreover, go on and explore Gurbani for the phrase 'Aavan Jaavan' and you will come to know in what context Guruji speaks. In this respect, i feel you are far from the truth. 


> I did not meet any person who is not praising God.
> Your views are "They are not some rewards that someone can get with superficial parrot-like Ustat."
> Please explain what a non parrot like Ustat is without blaming a seeker.


You did not meet any person who is not praising God? Wow! There are countless people who do not praise God. Talk to a buddhist or a jainaa about praising God, see what you get in response! 
I have explained enough. Read my earlier posts once again! 


> Thanks for your suggestion >>>Better still, why don't you approach the 'Panj Pyaaras' <<<
> 
> I hope you are not suggesting me to forget ONE. Panj Pyaaras try to approach whom even.


For a change, approach the Panj Pyaaraas to whom the Guru gave the 'status' of Guru while taking Amrit from them. Guruji said that in the presence of the Panj Pyaaraas, the Guru will always be present. What's the harm in getting their opinion? Moreover, you don't already know the ONE God, so how can you forget Him? Once you know God directly then you no longer need to approach anyone else, but till then anyone could give you useful inputs. Why else would you keep visiting Sikhphilosophy, if it was not to get other's opinions? 


> Quote >>>I know Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a state of Union with God, but just by knowing do i experience that state? Just by knowing 'one-pointedness' do i become 'one-pointed'? <<<
> 
> Your Posts give an impression that you know so many words.


Why do you tend to see things that are unimportant? My knowing many words is not important. Your understanding of the message within those words is important. 


> Quote >>>Jaap stops once Ajapaa Jaap is heard. <<<
> 
> May I ask what continues in Ajapaa Jaap? Why they call it Ajapaa Jaap when Jaap stops before Ajapaa Jaap starts?


(I have explained enough in my previous posts.)
In 'Ajapaa Jaap', one continues to live in the true realization of God. One finds eternal love, joy, peace and bliss in the Ajapaa Jaap. 
I didn't say that Jaap stops 'before' Ajapaa Jaap is heard. I said that it stops 'once' Ajapaa Jaap is heard. 
The drop (Jaap) merges with the ocean (Ajapaa Jaap) and when it does, the drop is no more, only the ocean remains. 


> Please do not ask personal questions. I feel one preferably needs to know God.


Ok sir! I won't ask personal questions! (I wonder which one was so personal.) 


> Quote >>>Remaining Sangat of Sikhphilosophy, please get involved! <<<
> 
> Canvassing for votes and shouting slogans does not help reaching truth.


Wow! Am i canvassing for votes and shouting slogans?! For what? To become the president of Sikhphilosophy?! Aman ji, beware! 
Balbir ji, some of your replies are just hilarious! Hahahahahaa...! 
I am just calling upon the Sangat to give their views, why is it pinching you so hard?! Is there something wrong in getting views from others? Did i ever say that we will come to know the truth by getting other's opinions? You are so presumptuous! Well, if you don't need other's views, why do you keep asking people to 'Please explain'!? If you can do that then why can't i ask people to get involved? I never asked the Sangat of Sikhphilosophy to come and support my viewpoint, i just said that they should get involved. I don't see any 'canvassing for votes' in that. 


> It is surprising. Still, some go on singing songs of tiny efforts. Perhaps they are waiting to realize Hukam.


Are you talking about me? If yes then please tell me one song that i sang in praise of tiny ego! I have been praising genuine efforts (Udam) of a devotee! 
Balbir ji, have you realized the Hukam? 


> All is God, also His Efforts. This is what Truth feels like.


Wow, you seem to have felt the truth! Hmm? 
Only man needs to put efforts! Why would God need to put efforts? To realize what? He is everything. There is nothing that He needs to realize! Think about it. 
Simply put, God inspires and gives us strength. Man uses God-given strength to move forwards or backwards. So, using that strength, someone becomes Banda Singh Bahadur, defender of the weak, while someone else becomes Aurangzeb the oppressor. The same strength given by God works in both of them, so from that point of view one may say that 'all is God'. Through the mind, the strength enters into the world of duality where it can be used to become a Gurmukh or a Manmukh. 


> Quote >>>"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
> which means,
> "The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart." <<<
> 
> This is a wonderful Vaak from Gurdev. I do not find a place for tiny ego (effort) in "Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada." The benevolent effort is among all efforts. Jiya chants the name of Hari always. The blessed ones realize God in all His Efforts, other their ego.


Wow! The extent to which you go to mould Gurbani according to your mind! Amazing! 
"Jiya chants the name of Hari always"! Does your Jiya chant the name of Hari 'Always', Balbir Ji? Please think deeply about this. If yes then why do we need to 'Do' Sumiran or Ustat or Keertan?! Because according to you Jiya is always chanting Hari! 


> Quote >>>Is the meaning of 'Bigsi-aa' equal to 'forgot'!? I thought 'Bisariaa' was forgot! <<<
> 
> 'Bigsi-aa' means reaching evolution. This word when used for mind (man) states its unfolding. Mind through True Simran reaches the evolution of non existence. God is realized forgetting mind.
> We transcend it fully when unfolded completely. I tried to explain this state of mind in short.
> ...


I said that 'Bigasiaa' means 'blossoming forth like a flower'. Isn't that a symbol for ultimate growth, for evolution? A seed turning into a flower. Isn't that same as unfolding? Why do you keep creating holes, where there are none!? 
Now, you say that the mind unfolds. A dumb question against this could be, 'Is the mind a piece of folded paper, that it unfolds?' 
If a mind can unfold, why can't it blossom, Balbir Ji!! 
Ever heard the word 'personification'? It is a poetic construct, a 'figure of speech'. And, Gurbani is full of poetry. Many-a-times, a 'metaphor' or a 'personification' is used to easily convey some message! 
For example, Gurbani says, 
'Chandan Kai Niktey Basey Baans Sugandh Na Hoi." 
which means, 
'Near the Sandalwood tree dwells the Bamboo tree, but it (bamboo) does not become fragrant.' 
So, is Guruji trying to teach us Botany over here? No!! Here, the Bamboo tree refers to someone extremely egoistic, such a person, even in the presence of a humble God-realized saint does not absorb even one iota of the saint's bliss. For example, 'Prahlaad' is like a Sandalwood tree while His father 'Harnakash' is like a Bamboo tree!? See, how it works? 
Considering the truth that Gurbani uses figures of speech, one will have to agree that it also considers the evolution of the mind as the blossoming forth of a flower. Just like a flower blossoms and spreads its fragrance, similarly a mind can blossom forth into God-realization and spread the fragrance of God! 
Is this so hard to understand? 
Moreover, Gurbani is not a dictionary. It will not tell you what 'Bigsiaa' means. Gurbani will just use the word 'Bigsiaa'. One is expected to know the meaning of the word. But if someone wants to mistranslate Gurbani, one can substitute any meaning that one wants for any word! 


> Mind through True Simran reaches the evolution of non existence.


Balbir ji, what else have i been trying to explain to you since such a long time!!? 
I have told you earlier that mind in itself is the subtlest form of ego and that in the end even that disappears by the grace of God. Now you talk of mind reaching the evolution of non-existence through Sumiran. I am sure you are talking about the state of no-mind as i have explained earlier. 


> Quote >>>Think of the reason why Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani is sung in 'The Golden Temple' and in the Gurudwaaras all across the world. Did people suddenly start doing that due to a whim? This has been happening since Guruji's time, since the time He was present to witness it happening. <<<
> 
> Some assert to have discovered truth because they saw many people practicing something as ritual.


Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani has been sung in the presence of the Guru with Guruji's acceptance. And due to that reason it is sung to this day in the Gurdwaaras. Does that make sense to you? I really hope it does. 
You asked me for a proof and you got the most logical one. And now because you have no choice but to accept it, you choose the only escape route left to deny it, you start calling "the singing of Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani at Gurudwaaras" a ritual. Wow, Balbir Ji! Is there much left to wonder as to who is playing the game of ego over here!? 


> You wished to know my views about Guru's Vaak "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey."
> 
> All His creation is God Himself also things that look opposite. God is the Origin of Darkness (Andhkaar) and Light (Tej) both. This is why HE is Andhkaare and Tejey both. Bowing alone to one of the above is not bowing completely.
> 
> By the way 'Namo' is not bowing what people know as 'Mathaa Tayk'.


For once, you appear closer to the truth. I am happy to see that, sincerely. 
'Namo' comes from the word 'Naman', which means 'Salutation'. And one salutes only to that, which one totally accepts. And one bows for the same reasons. 
Do you remember why i quoted that statement from Guruji? My point was that someone who wants to misinterpret that statement could do it easily and start doubting the Gurus. 
Gurbani is also subject to the mind's interpretations. And the mind is unreliable. So, don't be so sure of your interpretations. Neither am i, unless i realize something through meditation. 


> I have a small request. Please do not seek and collect mistakes from others. One may learn from those though.


Balbir ji, this is really sad. 
You are telling me not to collect mistakes? Who was the one who started collecting controversies in this thread? Please think deeply before you say something like this. 
I was always giving my views and answering your questions as per my understanding, until you came in pointing out controversies which never really existed. And once you did that, i had no choice but to justify my points of view, for which many-a-times i had to also justify the shortcomings of your interpretations. And now you are telling me that i am collecting mistakes! Wow! Balbir Ji, if you had said that 'we both should stop finding mistakes', i would have agreed. But, you have made such a one-sided remark on this issue. That's unfair. You are not able to see your own shortcomings. That's sad. 
And i sincerely feel that some of your interpretations of Gurbani are flawed. Even if one did a simple grammatical translation of Guruji's words, your interpretations wouldn't hold up against that simplicity. 
Anyway, i can go on with the discussion because i really have nothing against you or anyone else. I just cannot come to accept some of your interpretations, that's all. Moreover, others from the Sangat seem to be getting their answers. 
Moreover, if you feel that you understand Gurbani in the right light, why are you asking so many questions from other people? Couldn't you find all the answers through Gurbani? 

Bhull Chukk Dee Khima Mangdaa Haan.


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## Anoop (May 24, 2006)

lol... ntohing is wrong no one is wrong, its all your own thinking and mind!!! It depends on how u can deal with it or how much u can accept something, otherwise there is no right and wrong!!!


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## simpy (May 24, 2006)

Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,

Bani is Eternal. It has been Guru right from the beginning. All Guru Sahiban illuminated the world through Gurbani.The Gurbani: Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a Transcendental Vibratory Sound. Each and every Sound works like a real hammer-stroke that nails Eternal Love and Wisdom in the devotee’s heart and mind. 

Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani……..

Bani is our Living Lord.

The need is to read Gurbani with dedication, attention and comprehension. Correct translation and then correct understanding of Bani has become a crucial issue in this thread. Veer Balbir Singh Ji, with due respect, I suggest him to consult some good translators of Gurbani, after making sure about the authenticity of the writers. A lot of translation work available out there has huge discrepancies which is loosing the authenticity of Gurbani’s words and meanings for the readers. Based on his given translations and suggestions to Svaneet Ji and myself(Surinder), he is having many many unbelievable misconceptions. 

It is just a suggestion. I could not stop myself from writing this after reading last few pages. 

With due Respect to Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.




Guru Bhala Karey


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## Archived_member2 (May 24, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Anoop Ji!

Quote >>>Dont fall into the trap, persuading people to be sikh or trying your hard is just like an act. Its not really gods love u became sikh, its just a way of you trying to avoid conflicts in life. <<<

I hope you are not trying to convince many Sikhs who are already dedicated.

**************
Snavneet Ji!
Your posts are unnecessarily long and full of changing statements. No one needs to prove what you have expressed through your controversial writings.

Quote >>>Moreover, if you feel that you understand Gurbani in the right light, why are you asking so many questions from other people? Couldn't you find all the answers through Gurbani? <<<

Had you written this earlier I would have not asked you any question? 

I wish to extend a statement and have a small request. Please do not seek and collect mistakes from others. One may learn from those though. Human life is to collect Naam.

**************
Surinder Ji!

Quote >>>I suggest him to consult some good translators of Gurbani, after making sure about the authenticity of the writers. A lot of translation work available out there has huge discrepancies which is loosing the authenticity of Gurbani’s words and meanings for the readers. Based on his given translations and suggestions to Svaneet Ji and myself(Surinder), he is having many many unbelievable misconceptions. <<<

Knowing that you have realized this is interesting. I have heard mind never likes Truth approaching near.
Should people really search God through translations?

Thanks for the great Satsangs.


Balbir Singh

Ps I am away for few days.


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## Anoop (May 25, 2006)

Sat sri akal Balbir ji,

I think i should take it easy, lol,

I think that sikhs have nothing to worry to, because they follow gods path. I am just saying for those people who are confused to what to do or how to pray to god, then they should take things lightly and meditate for the time being.


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## Anoop (May 26, 2006)

I have found this site:

http://personal.riverusers.com/~innerguide/CH2.html

By looking at this site, i thought it was sikhism, but to my suprise it was infact hinduism. This goes on about brahmans and how they use meditation to go to god.

The thing is, i resopect the gurus so much because they became god, however, we can do the same. 

In hidusim it mentions that they need the guru to succeed in finding god. Everything is so similar to sikhism... just look at the website.


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## snavneet (May 31, 2006)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji!  

O Balbir ji, i have missed you all these days!  



> Balbir Ji: Your posts are unnecessarily long and full of changing statements.


snavneet: 
You are right about my posts being long! They tend to grow longer with every post! But, that happened because you were asking me to explain things! I had no choice. I like to make things absolutely clear from my side. 
But, i do not agree that my posts are full of changing statements. 



> Balbir Ji: No one needs to prove what you have expressed through your controversial writings.


snavneet: 
Well, you have the right to proclaim that what i have posted is controversial based on your understanding. And, i too have a right to justify myself. But saying that everyone feels the same way as you, about my posts, is just being too presumptuous. That's why i always say that 'one should just speak for oneself'. 
Views and opinions tend to be subjective. You have yours and i have mine. Sikhphilosophy is a 'place' (another use of 'asthaan'!) where people can meet and share their views. And that is what we should try to do. Nothing wrong with pointing out controversies, but 'speak for yourself' and 'give the other person the right to justify her/his point', without which there cannot be a fair 'sharing of ideas'. 



> snavneet: Moreover, if you feel that you understand Gurbani in the right light, why are you asking so many questions from other people? Couldn't you find all the answers through Gurbani?
> Balbir Ji: Had you written this earlier I would have not asked you any question?


snavneet:
So, indirectly you are trying to say that you understand Gurbani in the right light and i don't! No issues with that. That is entirely subjective. You are free to translate Gurbani the way you want. And you are also free to share your views with others and to justify your views when the situation demands that. But, i feel that everybody deserves the same kind of freedom. Conflicts are bound to happen when opposite views meet. A healthy debate is one way to reach a consensus and resolve the situation. If that fails then it is better to learn from personal experience over the long run. 



> Balbir Ji: I wish to extend a statement and have a small request. Please do not seek and collect mistakes from others. One may learn from those though. Human life is to collect Naam.


snavneet: 
You are right about human life being an opportunity to collect the gift of Naam. So, let us all endeavour to realize the bliss of Naam. 

Please forgive me if any of my posts has caused you any inconvenience. That has never been my intention. I was just trying to share my views on the topic at hand. 

Wish you Love and Peace.  

Bhull Chukk Dee Khimaa Mangdaa Haan.

______________________________________________________________________________


Now to sharing my views with Anoop Ji.



> Anoop Ji: This goes on about brahmans and how they use meditation to go to god.


snavneet: Actually, a true 'Brahman' is any person whose mind dies while (s)he is still alive in her/his physical body. Such a person is also called a 'dwij' or twice born. First birth was from the mother's womb. This second birth takes place from the universe's womb when the egoistic mind dies permanently and the true self is realized within and without. Nobody becomes a Brahman by taking birth in a Brahman family, just like nobody becomes a Gursikh by birth. The word 'Brahman' was initially coined to represent a person who has realized the true self through the Anhad Dhun of Om. Permanent realization of the all-pervading sound of Om is considered true baptization. It is this true Amrit that bestows bliss upon the deserving devotee. As far as i have learnt, in every real spiritual path, 'Om' has the central place. It is one thing that every aspirant has to realize. Sikhs called it the Naam, Ek Omkar. Hindus call it by many names, mainly 'Om'. Buddhists call it 'Hum'. Christians call it 'Amen'. Sufis call it 'Aameen'. 
'Silencing of the mind' is the aim of all meditation, when that happens then the all-pervading 'Om' is heard. Self-Realization happens. 



> Anoop Ji: The thing is, i resopect the gurus so much because they became god, however, we can do the same.


snavneet: Indeed, the main reason we have had so many Prophets and Gurus throughout the ages is that we all deserve the same ultimate bliss that they realized. That's why they have inspired us through their scriptures and through personal sacrifice. They want us to realize what they realized. They have been trying to wake us up to what we have been missing. 



> Anoop Ji: In hidusim it mentions that they need the guru to succeed in finding god. Everything is so similar to sikhism... just look at the website.


snavneet: In fact, the Guru-Shishya relationship has been central to spiritual traditions throughout history. The Guru who is already one with God could easily bestow union upon the Shishya when (s)he is ready for it. No christian would imagine getting to God without Jesus, because Jesus is their Guru, although they don't use the word. For buddhists, Gautam Buddha is the Guru, that's why they sing the phrase, 'Buddham Sharanam Gachhaami". And the same is true of many other religions. Gurbani gives utmost importance to the status of the Satguru, by saying that God is received as Guru's Parsaad! Gurbani sums it up for all, in the most generic way!  

More later. 
Bhull Chukk Dee Khimaa Mangdaa Haan.


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## Archived_member2 (Jun 2, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Quote >>>O Balbir ji, i have missed you all these days! <<<

I enjoy having a corner in your heart. I am in your mind when remembered. Still, you missed me. Perhaps you looked somewhere outside.

I feel those, who got the wisdom of true Jap, will never write sentences like "Jaap stops once Ajapaa Jaap is heard."

In my experience, Jaap never stops nor someone ever hears Ajapaa Jaap. God is also available in those who do not have ears. God dwells also where no sounds exist.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jun 2, 2006)

Ultimately it is all peace.

*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nothing real can be threatened.[/FONT]*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
*Nothing unreal exists.*[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Herein lies the peace of God*[/FONT]


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## max314 (Jun 2, 2006)

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> Ultimately it is all peace.
> 
> *[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nothing real can be threatened.[/FONT]*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
> *Nothing unreal exists.*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Herein lies the peace of God*[/FONT]


Indeed.  Great three-liner, by the way.  Are those your own words or from a text?  Either way, it is absolutely right.


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## amitverma (Jun 22, 2006)

To get the answer to your question, please visit www.{url not allowed}

It will tell you how to meditate, when to medidate and what is the way etc..

Amit Verma


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## drkhalsa (Jun 22, 2006)

> To get the answer to your question, please visit www.{url not allowed}
> 
> It will tell you how to meditate, when to medidate and what is the way etc..
> 
> Amit Verma


 



dear friend this site refers to Satguru Dasan DASS

He himself has visted this forum tried to ppresent his views 

Just a reminder 

SIKHS ALREADY HAVE THIER LIVING SATGURU ( GURU GRANTH SAHIB ) SO DONT NEED ANOTHER ONE 

THANK YOU


Jatinder Singh


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## amitverma (Jun 22, 2006)

Dear Jatinder Singh,

Tell me, what is wrong or incoorect written at {url not allowed}. Logically and spirtually whatever is said on the web site is TRUE. Hi is not a Guru, but at the same time he is sharing his spirtual experiences and methods to achieve God which usually no one does. Ask any Sant. The answer will be keep doing paths etc. Kripa ho jayegi. But how?


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## drkhalsa (Jun 23, 2006)

Dear Friend 

I have nothing against him or his website .

In current times some people have used spirtuality to attract attention and then use people for personal reason it could be MONEY, FOLLOWING , EVEN JUST EGO SATISFYING APPRECIATION .

And many time SIKHISM has been made Bate for all this process as they will proclaim themself as SIKH SANTS 


About this particular Person I know Nothing , So you are better jusdge and Yes thereis every possibilty that he might be helping people , 


But on this forum we are bound to warn people against Mischievious people , so that was the purpose of my post 

I hope you understand 



Jatinder Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 24, 2006)

Gurfateh

Satnam type of people say that we need Guru to uite with Akal but he behlod Akal only as  our Guru ie Gurubar Akal or one who is incarntaioed since starts to end of creation/manifestation.
To be lcaer Khalsa itself is Guru at the state of oneness with Akal.


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 6, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

God sings through all. The enlightened one realizes this. Others interpret and understand it according to their conscious level of mind.

Gurdev is singing QwipAw n jwie kIqw n hoie ] 
"thaapi-aa na jaa-ay keetaa na ho-ay." SGGS Ang 2-6

"thaapi-aa na jaa-ay" is the wonderful expression of God's one attribute. 'Thaa' means place. 'Pi' means at. 'Aa' means comes. 'Na' means not. 'Jaa' means goes. 'Ay' means this.
God does not come at or goes from a place.

Placing God at a highest place is the wrong translation of the Guru's Vaak "sabh tay ooch paa-ay asthaan. He receives the highest place of all."


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 6, 2006)

Gurfateh

God sings in brothals and in scritputres(Kahon Ved Bani Kahin Kok Ki Kahani,Kahon Raja Kahin Rani Kahin Naaar Ke prakar Ho(Akal Ustat)).

So God decides where Satnam gusy stand.All things are from God some take us to maaomn and mnay take us away.But God decides that even prongrphy can salvage us God is capable of All.But When God gives Guruship to us then God only prevents from tasking it away from us from people like satnam cult.

Das just wants to say Bhai Balbeer Singh ji a good news.

Sat Sri Akal is Beej Mantra for Sikhs as per Bhai Daya Singh Rahit Nammah.He writes Guru saying to behold Granth and Panth as Guru.

So Big Sat Sri Akal to yourself the great Sikh das has came accorss and may Akal bless you Singh Sahib Ji.


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 6, 2006)

Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!
Thanks for the wonderful reference from Akal Ustat and your blessings.

All seeds do not come into existence to become a tree. So are the seeds of Guru's Shabad.

All are born with these seeds. Rarely in someone, they sow the seed properly attended and ripen into a tree.

Balbir Singh


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## Anoop (Jul 7, 2006)

for me personally, i jus be myself, because when you be yourself god comes in to you, everything is god, so just be youself and remember god. God is yourself. Be your self and you will give out the love to people.


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## GITIKA KAUR (Oct 26, 2006)

wjkk wjkf

*The topic of Simran is actually very vast....JUST  RELAX ND FEEL THE GOD THIS IS WE CAN DO ONLY*
*the literal meaning of Simran is rememberance... in Gurbani its rememberance of Ek Akaalpurakh, GOD, Khuda, Waheguru, Raam...*
*the basic moto, what i thnk behind this, is to keep a contant eye on the acts done by us...AS Gurbani says...*
*banday khoj dil har roz na phir pareshani mahe | (SGGSPg 727)*
*ie, he manukh, daily analyse the acts done by self, there will b no situation of worry after the self introspection...*

salok mehla 1
*balihari gur apne diohari sad var*
i am a sacrifice to my guru a hundred tomes a day
*jin manas te devte kie karat na lagi var*
who has made demigods, out of men,without any delay
*the meaning of slok can b referred from the pauri which talk that God created himself... finally he resides himself in his own creation in the form of LAWS OF NATURE...*
*Hence in this slok n the slok after this in both Guru Sahib talks abt the gr8ness of "GUR" i.e., intellect, method, technique... with GUR the inhumane becomes Human....infact the path of truth is only visible when we seek this intellect.... when we surrenders ourself to Gurmat...the universal truth*
*Pls guide me for improvement.I AM A LEARNER ND WILL ALWYS BE A LEARNER*
*YOUR SIS*
*GITIKA KAUR{SGGSJI DAUGHTER}*


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## balvirsd (Oct 26, 2006)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

I want to knw is yoga can be practice by a sikh?


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## navroopsingh (Nov 19, 2006)

At NO point in my life as a Sikh follower of THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB will i ever "count" how many times I do Jap Ji Sahib, Sukhmani Sahib, or naam simran. I will continuously do Naam simran when I am not doing my Nitnem and i fail to see how you could possibly stop doing naam simran or such at a certain point, such as after 50 or whatever repetitions. There is no end to God so how can there be such to his worshipping from you? How can you "calculate" how many times you need to do Phat in a certain time lapse. These are all seemingly more ways to seperate the Sikh groups, into different methods of achieving salvation, Kundalini Yoga being one that is growing in the west, and here comes the Nanaksar...never stop doing naam simran, do your nitnem, follow the guides of THE GURU not self proclaimed guru's and you shall find what billions die searching for, realization of the almighty.


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## kanwal295 (Nov 20, 2006)

My dear Guru pyario

This number thing and malas and fixation to the number of Paths etc has led many a Sikh to leave Sikhism for other faiths especially Christianity. Many a well-meaning babas have inadvertently led people away from the actual essence of what the Gurujis actually taught us. Sikhism is meant to be the most simple and easy path to live, a lifestyle that is God-centred, and thus with every breath and with every morsel and every moment the Sikh is enjoined to be one with the Divine. That doesn't mean that the Sikh does nothing but recite the Name which many people think erroneously. The Name as we come to know.... the actual name of God such as Parmeshar, Waheguru are reference points and vehicles to carry us across this worldly ocean ....  a Name by which we can remember that One Creator Being who has somany names and yet none. We need to remember that the Naam actually means the Power of the Presence of God ie The Satnaam that It is...... the Omnipresent Immortal Essence of Reality that is Omniscient and Omnipotent and pervades the whole creation ... much like what the Christians call Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or Muslims call Rooh Ilahi or the Hindus call it the Aad Para Shakti, it is the Naam Kellah which is the Chardi Kellah or the Divine Spirit. The Sikh's way of life is a meditation..."Uthat baithat sovat jaagat marg chalt  Har Har dhi-aa-yai..... in speech, in thoughts and in action.... also Jo deesai so tera roop jo karan so terai hazoor.... and the Names of God and Gur shabd help us along the path to remain in constant awareness of His Presence.....So beautiful and simple Sikhism is .... but sadly it has been made difficult .......
What has been taught to me I share with you.... whatever its worth

Dr Kanwal Jit Singh


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## drkhalsa (Nov 21, 2006)

Dear Dr Kanwal Jit Singh

I really lked your post and could not agrre more with your ideas

Thanks for sharing your experience !


Jatinder Singh


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## onkar (May 15, 2007)

Hi ..friends

It would be my first post. Thanks a lot for this topic. I have a view point of explaining it in my own way although I may not be worthy of it.

Our desire makes us act. If there is no desire there will not be any act. Thus if we are are to meditate we must have the desire to do so. This desire should be backed up by something to achieve. That something is that we like and love.
If we like and love something we can easliy do that we are to do. If we like and love HIm we shall have desire else not. Thus the essential thing is if we have love for lord  or not. If we have, the rest follows. If we don't love something we don't even think of that what to say of meditating.


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## Josh martin (Jul 8, 2009)

kanwal295 said:


> My dear Guru pyario
> 
> Sikhism is meant to be the most simple and easy path to live,
> a lifestyle that is God-centred, and thus with every breath and with every morsel and every moment the Sikh is enjoined to be one with the Divine.



How is to be a sikh anywhere near easy?
Every breath, every morsel.. with divine ? 

I admire your good motives. You might be mis understood, not wrong, but mis-understood.


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2009)

Sant Kabir, Ang 1124


ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਅੰਤ ਕੀ ਬੇਰ ਆਇ ਲਾਗੋ ਕਾਲੁ ਨਿਦਾਨਿ ॥੨॥੫॥ 
kehi kabeer anth kee baer aae laago kaal nidhaan ||2||5||
Says Kabeer, at the very last moment, death will come and seize you, you fool! ||2||5||

 ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਨ ਅਪਨੀ ਨਉਬਤਿ ਚਲੇ ਬਜਾਇ ॥ 
chaar dhin apanee noubath chalae bajaae ||
The mortal beats the drum for a few days, and then he must depart.


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

I would like to suggest, hopefully I am not first one, To post shabads in full. Or atleast a whole chaupai/chant etc.:welcome:


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> I would like to suggest, hopefully I am not first one, To post shabads in full. Or atleast a whole chaupai/chant etc.:welcome:



My good friend -- The posted is the entire seloka within the greater raag than encompasses it. No need to post more, the seloka stands on its own. But the surrounding vaars can be found as noted previously on Ang 1124.  Forgive me.


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

There were numbers after the first line, which gave me the impression a salok/shabad was ending, aka donate shabad 2, something 5.
And the next line started new. You know, they dont rhyme. 

I wasn't aware it was the complete shalok.


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## danielle k (Aug 10, 2009)

I personally believe in both the power of meditation and the necessity of doing it in a way that is appropriate to you and thus conducive to you reaching a higher level of consciousness and concentration on Waheguru, and yet it seems that again and again in both the SGGS (which I am currently reading) and in the Reht Maryada, that there is a very specifically proscribed "right" and "wrong" way to do this.

I have personal feelings about my relationship with Waheguru, but I am confused about all of this. I have not yet been baptised, and am making sincere inquiries into the Sikh faith before doing so, as I think this is only appropriate, and so I am hitting a brick wall. 

Thoughts?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2009)

josh ji

here is the complete Sequence of Shloks that are in same reference:


ਟੇਢੀ ਪਾਗ ਟੇਢੇ ਚਲੇ ਲਾਗੇ ਬੀਰੇ ਖਾਨ ॥ 
टेढी पाग टेढे चले लागे बीरे खान ॥ 
Tedẖī pāg tedẖe cẖale lāge bīre kẖān. 
Your turban is crooked, and you walk crooked; and now you have started chewing betel leaves. 

ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਕਾਜੁ ਨ ਕਛੂਐ ਮੇਰੋ ਕਾਮੁ ਦੀਵਾਨ ॥੧॥ 
भाउ भगति सिउ काजु न कछूऐ मेरो कामु दीवान ॥१॥ 
Bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ si▫o kāj na kacẖẖū▫ai mero kām ḏīvān. ||1|| 
You have no use at all for loving devotional worship; you say you have business in court. ||1|| 

ਰਾਮੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿਓ ਹੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਿ ॥ 
रामु बिसारिओ है अभिमानि ॥ 
Rām bisāri▫o hai abẖimān. 
In your egotistical pride, you have forgotten the Lord. 

ਕਨਿਕ ਕਾਮਨੀ ਮਹਾ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਮਾਨਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
कनिक कामनी महा सुंदरी पेखि पेखि सचु मानि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Kanik kāmnī mahā sunḏrī pekẖ pekẖ sacẖ mān. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Gazing upon your gold, and your very beautiful wife, you believe that they are permanent. ||1||Pause|| 

ਲਾਲਚ ਝੂਠ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਮਹਾ ਮਦ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਅਉਧ ਬਿਹਾਨਿ ॥ 
लालच झूठ बिकार महा मद इह बिधि अउध बिहानि ॥ 
Lālacẖ jẖūṯẖ bikār mahā maḏ ih biḏẖ a▫oḏẖ bihān. 
You are engrossed in greed, falsehood, corruption and great arrogance. Your life is passing away. 

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਅੰਤ ਕੀ ਬੇਰ ਆਇ ਲਾਗੋ ਕਾਲੁ ਨਿਦਾਨਿ ॥੨॥੫॥ 
कहि कबीर अंत की बेर आइ लागो कालु निदानि ॥२॥५॥ 
Kahi Kabīr anṯ kī ber ā▫e lāgo kāl niḏān. ||2||5|| 
Says Kabeer, at the very last moment, death will come and seize you, you fool! ||2||5|| 


The potion below is actually a separate two line doha:

ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਨ ਅਪਨੀ ਨਉਬਤਿ ਚਲੇ ਬਜਾਇ ॥ 
चारि दिन अपनी नउबति चले बजाइ ॥ 
Cẖār ḏin apnī na▫ubaṯ cẖale bajā▫e. 
The mortal beats the drum for a few days, and then he must depart. 

ਇਤਨਕੁ ਖਟੀਆ ਗਠੀਆ ਮਟੀਆ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਕਛੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
इतनकु खटीआ गठीआ मटीआ संगि न कछु लै जाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Iṯnak kẖatī▫ā gaṯẖī▫ā matī▫ā sang na kacẖẖ lai jā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
With so much wealth and cash and buried treasure, still, he cannot take anything with him. ||1||Pause||


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## simpy (Aug 11, 2009)

*Prayer:*

*Panna-**.1084
*
*ਸਗਲੀ ਜਾਨਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਮਉਦੀਫਾ ॥
**sagalee jaan karahu moudheefaa ||*
*
Seeing God everywhere--- this is supposed to be our Worship. This knowledge is given to us by Guru Ji over and over again.........So let your daily worship be the knowledge  'God is everywhere'. See Him, Feel Him, Breath Him..................*


*Truth:*

*Panna 22*

*ਹੋਰੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥੧॥
**hor kithai bhagath n hovee bin sathigur kae oupadhaes ||1||
*
*Guru Shabad- some say He is the Guru, some say it is just the teachings of the Guru, whatever is your belief, just need to start living the Truth--His teachings--- As there is no other way other than His teachings. *

*Be Humble:*

*Panna-1186*

*ਤੂ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਉ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਣਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥੩॥
**thoo samarathh suaamee maeraa ho kiaa jaanaa thaeree poojaa ||3||
*
*My knowledge is nothing!!!!!!! that's where one need to keep their heart set at....My Master is the  Smarath suami, I dont know how to do His Worship....... considering all that you doing as of not much value.. like surrendering your mind to Guru Ji completely.. *

*Panna-805*

*ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਅਪਨੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
**thumh hee jaanahu apanee poojaa ||2||
**Praising Him for everything-- You alone know Your worship and adoration. 
*
*Panna-612*
*ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥
**har aaraadhh n jaanaa rae ||
Becoming so so humble and considering that you do not know how to worship the Lord in adoration.*


*From Guru Ji anyone even a person reading Gurbani as a scholar, can understand that Guru Ji has stressed a lot on 'being humble' in every possible way--word, deed, thought.....*
*Unconditional love, total surrender with utmost gratitude and humility *

*tu smarath vada meri matt thodi raam*






* 


*


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## gs_chana (Oct 1, 2009)

Really well written Surinder Kaur - I couldn't agree more; there are too many superstitions which have crept into Sikhi and are slowly eroding it away. But I have faith that our brothers and sisters will change for the better and progress - it is a very slow process in our faith unfortunately but we have to hope and pray that Sikhi flourishes in future. 

I am very optimistic about the future - Sikhi is helping a lot of people in this modern day and age. But we need clear and logical Sikhi to progress - NOT superstations. 

Kind Regards. Gurdip Chana.


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## simpy (Oct 2, 2009)

Dear Gurdip Ji,

Yes you are right, the moment we start understanding the fact that we need to follow the teachings of Gurbani with unconditional love and gratitude, we are on the right track. 

Charan Saran Gur Ek Painda jai Chal SatGuru Kot Painda AagayHoi Let Hai......

With Warm Regards
surinder


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