# Vegetarian Consciousness And The Meditative Mind



## BaljinderS (Apr 20, 2012)

In my last post, I covered some of the recent research about the long term negative effects of animal protein on health. In this blog I will focus on what I have found to be the more immediate effects of animal protein on the energetic body and meditative mind.

First, a little of my history: I was born into a medical family. My grandfather and my father were medical doctors. My mother was a nurse and both of my sisters became nurses. I grew up with the expectation that I would also become a medical doctor. But instead I dropped out of college and became a carpenter. As a result of having chronic headaches, I started going to a chiropractor and found it to be very beneficial. At that time I had no desire or intention to become a chiropractor.

In 1974 I was introduced to Kundalini Yoga and went to my first Summer Solstice Celebration. I already knew that Kundalini Yoga had changed my life and at Solstice I saw a demonstration of muscle-testing by a chiropractor. This was a life changing moment for me. The elegant simplicity of being able to communicate with a person’s inner healer was so profound that I decided that this is what I wanted to do with my life. So I enrolled in Chiropractic College and became a wellness-oriented, muscle-testing chiropractor.

One of the techniques that I learned was checking for food intolerances with muscle testing. For those who are not familiar with this, you put a specific food in a person’s mouth and then test their arm strength. If the arm weakens, it is a sign that the person has a negative reaction to this food. Common foods that were found to cause weakness were sugar, wheat, dairy products, soy, corn, chocolate, and coffee.

When I learned this, I could not wait to show people how bad animal protein was. So I got some meat and had someone put this in their mouth to test it. To my great surprise, their arm did not weaken. Their body did not have a negative reaction to animal protein. I found this to be true for all types of flesh like poultry, fish, and eggs.

With further study this made sense to me. We have lived and evolved for hundreds of thousands of years eating primarily fruits, vegetables, and the occasional animal that we could catch. We are very well genetically adapted to eating these foods. Other foods are relatively new to our diet such as grains and dairy. As hunters and gatherers we never ate the milk of another mammal or large quantities of the seeds of grasses that grew wild.

Years later I learned a refinement of how to test a food with muscle-testing. When I was testing a food in the past, I was in essence asking the whole body if it had a problem with the food. I learned that by touching the reflex point for a specific organ at the same time that I tested the muscle, I could zero in on the effect that the food had on that specific organ. So once again, I got some meat and started testing people, but this time I tested it against all of their individual organs. I found that there were two organ reflexes that caused people to test weak to meat over and over. Those two organs were the pituitary and the pineal gland.

As you may know, these two glands are associated with the 6th and 7th chakras. The sixth chakra is associated with our intuition and the projection of our mind. The seventh chakra is the seat of our soul and our connection to our infinite self. WOW! So while flesh did not seem to have an immediate negative effect on the body as a whole, it did seem to have a weakening effect on the two organs associated with our two highest chakras!

This led me to postulate that animal flesh has a dampening effect on our higher chakras and our higher consciousness. This is why it affects the consciousness so powerfully for people who completely stop eating animal protein. There is something about consuming the flesh of another animal that causes us to shut down the higher levels of spiritual awareness that are so important for yogis and other spiritual practitioners.

I also heard Yogi Bhajan talk about how bad fish was specifically for the large intestine. I found in my muscle-testing that fish weakened 3 organs: pituitary, pineal and large intestine.

This weakening of muscles does not happen when dairy products are tested. The pituitary and pineal are not specifically affected by dairy products. That is why the 3HO diet is lacto-vegetarian and not vegan. It is only the flesh foods like beef, lamb, poultry, fish, shellfish, and eggs that create this block to the 6th and 7th chakras.

So to bring it all together, the China Study teaches us that the more you reduce the amount of animal protein in your diet, the less you are at risk for heart disease, stroke, cancer, and diabetes. This means that if you only ate animal protein a few times a week, your risk would be pretty low. But based on my own research with muscle testing, ANY time that you eat animal flesh, you shut down your 6th and 7th chakras, so even a few times a week will have a significant effect on your consciousness. And fish, instead of being less of a problem, also affects your lower digestion.

If you are not dairy intolerant, you can eat dairy occasionally without this dampening effect on your chakras and without significantly raising your risk to these chronic diseases, but it is clear for those of us who are working hard through yoga and meditation to open up our higher centers and experience our divine essence, that meat, flesh, and eggs are working in the opposite direction.

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Santokh Singh Khalsa, D.C., chiropractor, healer, yogi, and master yoga teacher, has been teaching beginners how to start and maintain a regular daily yoga practice for over 30 years. He founded the Awareness Center in Pasadena, CA in 1975 and is a master teacher for Kundalini Yoga Teacher Training Level I and II His website is here.


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## BaljinderS (Apr 20, 2012)

I don't believe this for a second.  What are your thoughts on this please?


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 20, 2012)

:singhsippingcoffee:
What Humbo-Jumbo. ?????????


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 20, 2012)

BaljinderS said:


> I don't believe this for a second.  What are your thoughts on this please?


Veer BaljinderS ji thanks for the post.  I have no doubt that certain dietary regimens are good and perhaps better than others.  For example eating balanced meat-veg diet versus eating McDonald's everyday.

There are many good people and may be the Author is also one.  I believe such people start to lose credibility with me when they become pseudo Scientists and start claiming results of some crude observations as vetted research.  For example in this article about pituitary, pineal and large intestine being impacted by Fish eating. Obviously these people cannot be practicing in West Bengal or Bangladesh as their Business will fail.  Beyond preaching of moderation and variety I find lot of the stuff is hocus-pocus.

Additionally, I believe when someone is running a Shop (a Chiropractor runs a shop in making money of others)., their motives become suspect beyond plain Marketing.  Some bite such bait and so are taken advantage of.  Of course it is legal and allowed.

Fundamentally however, if someone makes someone healthy or helps them stay healthy and the person is happy with the services, great.  So I don't want to be too hard per se.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 20, 2012)

If it rocks his boat its fine.

But I don't believe it, because according to Baba Nanak even a grain of corn has life, so wouldn't that effect him?

What about milk? That is cow's blood in effect? or liquified flesh.


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## linzer (Apr 20, 2012)

Complete nonsense with no scientific basis whatsoever. But sadly enough the more ludicrous the theory ,particularly when related to diets ,the more people will follow it.I believe it was Mark Twain who said "a good lie will travel around the world before an honest truth puts it's shoe's on in the morning"


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## PunjabiEspada (Apr 26, 2012)

life or no life, animals obviously have emotions

eating meat nowadays is done solely for the purpose of satisfying a person's tastebuds, which is a frivolous and ridiculous reason to sacrifice an innocent life

there is no longer a need to eat meat now, there are vegetables, fruits,  and many other foods more than available to us across the globe as  opposed to meat

the same can be said about wearing animal fur, which nowadays is done for fashion

killing an innocent animal is taking a life, the animal does not desire to die, and will feel pain

if we indulge in eating meat or wearing fur, we contribute to this pain

I do not think God takes kindly to dishing out needless pain....


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## Randip Singh (Apr 27, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> life or no life, animals obviously have emotions
> 
> eating meat nowadays is done solely for the purpose of satisfying a person's tastebuds, which is a frivolous and ridiculous reason to sacrifice an innocent life
> 
> ...



Well I think your comments are wholly wrong, but on taste, does all vegetarian food awful? Is it some form of punishment like Shia's whipping themselves to eat awful tasting vegetarian food as opposed to great tasing meat?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 27, 2012)

in Fact its meat that is virtually tasteless stuff that ha sto be marinated, covered in all sorts of spices, masallas and flavours, roasted, grilled etc to make it "taste"....whereas Vegetables can be eaten RAW too...and with the minutest amounts of spices can taste wonderful...so whats with the "Taste" argument ?? Its Totally FAKE.


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## Luckysingh (Apr 27, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> life or no life, animals obviously have emotions
> 
> eating meat nowadays is done solely for the purpose of satisfying a person's tastebuds, which is a frivolous and ridiculous reason to sacrifice an innocent life
> 
> ...


 
This is a very dim view. We have to remember that a food chain does exist. As mentioned above by Randip ji, that Guru Nanak states that a corn grain has life, well of course it does. Infact any foods be they veg or not, if they go off or mouldy, then they are considered living and have different life forms within.

OK, so an apple tree doesn't have emotion, but a sheep does??
I'm not too sure that we can deny plants have other sensory organs, except that they can't be directly compared to mammals. It is well known, that plants respond to sound, music, temperatures and moisture just like all mammals.

You know those apples you see in the superstore, all gleaming and shiny under their lights. Do you actually know exactly how many chemicals are sprayed on just a single apple ?? 
More interstingly, how many of the ingredients sprayed are products or byproducts from animals and insects. 
Do you think that all waxy and shiny materials are synthesised in labs without any animals or insects used in their devloping??

If you learn and find the answers to the above, you would be very surprised.

I mentioned the 'food chain' above that is often used in scientific explanations.
 We, humans are on top of this chain, with all living things and plants below. 
This is surprisingly very similar to what Guru Nanak explained about us 'humans'.- That we are in the highest form of the chain where we have the chance to attain liberation with the almighty.
A plant or other species does not have this  oppurtunity, instead they transmigrate from one form to the other, just as in the food chain until human life is reached.
How we interpret transmigration, wether we use reincarnation or simple food chain, the end result is still the same. -As Humans, we are at the top of this chain or transmigration process and we have enough given abilities to attain liberation or mukhti with the almighty.
This is what is more important, not how we interact with fellows in the food chain.
Even as a child, I knew that when I would cut certain plants, that the liquid sap would seap out. Even as a 6yr old, I knew that the plant was hurt and crying or bleeding if you want to call it that. 
I'm still more than positive that any scientist would find that when the natural structure of a plant is disturbed, ie by cutting it's stem. Then as well as reacting with a production or seapage of discharge there can also be measured frequency signals of higher wavelengths at this same time.- similar to cries of help.

Everything has life, but where it is in the chain is what matters. Not how we think we can measure it's emotions.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 28, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> in Fact its meat that is virtually tasteless stuff that ha sto be marinated, covered in all sorts of spices, masallas and flavours, roasted, grilled etc to make it "taste"....whereas Vegetables can be eaten RAW too...and with the minutest amounts of spices can taste wonderful...so whats with the "Taste" argument ?? Its Totally FAKE.



Indeed.

Wheras Carrots, fruits etc can be eaten raw, and without any spice, can you imagine eating meat raw? The silly argument that people eat meat for taste is ridiculous.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 28, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> This is a very dim view. We have to remember that a food chain does exist. As mentioned above by Randip ji, that Guru Nanak states that a corn grain has life, well of course it does. Infact any foods be they veg or not, if they go off or mouldy, then they are considered living and have different life forms within.
> 
> OK, so an apple tree doesn't have emotion, but a sheep does??
> I'm not too sure that we can deny plants have other sensory organs, except that they can't be directly compared to mammals. It is well known, that plants respond to sound, music, temperatures and moisture just like all mammals.
> ...



Indeed:

The  following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth  are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru's when seeing life in  all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal: 
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 

_mehlaa 1._
_vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay._
_khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay._
_ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay._
_bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay._
_naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay._

_First Mehl:_
_Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,_
_and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed._
_What  punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in  the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out._
_And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below._
_Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!_
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


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## Harry Haller (Apr 28, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Wheras Carrots, fruits etc can be eaten raw, and without any spice, can you imagine eating meat raw? The silly argument that people eat meat for taste is ridiculous.



I am one of those people that have ordered steak tartare without knowing what it really was, so yes I know what it feels like to eat raw meat, and I had my gazpacho soup hot too.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 28, 2012)

BTW..in SGGS..Bhatt swaiyahs its written....Mata Khivi wife of Guru Angad sahib Jee served her Signature DISH..."KHEER GHYALI"....sweet rice milk pudding with lots of desi GHEE/BUTTER...."...........

NOW is ALL that about the "TASTE"....or just "words"...why mention Kheer and Ghee vali kheer..???

All those Fake Babas derawadees maharajs and fake "non-vegetarians" simply LOVE to REGURGITATE this "meat is for taste" argument repeatedly....( and Guru nanak ji 'saw through them" when He wrote..a Baby is BORN of MEAT..the very FIRST THING he puts into his mouth is MEAT..his TONGUE is MEAT...he plays with MEAT, is LOVED by meat..he marries MEAT and brings even more MEAT into the World.....and ALL those FRAUDS who pretend to "hold their noses" and stare with Horror stricken looks at "meat"...actually DEVOUR HUMANS IN THE DARKNESS of NIGHT..Maanas Khanney !!!!

Just ask the Chicago wallah baba...( who was caught red handed in a Hotel room in the USA with a Piece of "Black Meat" ..allegedly "counselling" her privately...He is a Very STRICT VEGETARIAN too !!! in fact ask any BABA Ji..he will surely be a "vegetarian"...but also have SECRET rooms/Bhoras/ in his dera for such secret counselling (devouvring meat).

So get OFF the high horse about meat being for taste blah blah blah..its a PERSONAL CHOICE.PERIOD. no religious spiritual benefit etc..  make your own choice and keep it PRIVATE. Stop using it as a "weapon" to attack SIKHS who dont support Damdami taksaal..or your Jatha..or DG..or blah blah blah..its NOT as per Gurbani at all.... For ME coke is "spiritually" disturbing..makes me not feel spiritual at all..but i dont go around trying to make a coke drinking Sikh as unspiritual..bad person etc..to another friend TEA makes him uncomfortable..so he never touches tea..NOTHINg to do with nay spirituality..etc etc.just his own BODY...cheerleader


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## Randip Singh (Apr 28, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I am one of those people that have ordered steak tartare without knowing what it really was, so yes I know what it feels like to eat raw meat, and I had my gazpacho soup hot too.




hahah Steak Tartar......


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## PunjabiEspada (Apr 30, 2012)

Before people going off saying I'm on my high horse, no, I don't think I'm better than you because I am a vegetarian. No, I do not seek the thrill of yet another heated debate. I am merely here to spread information that I recently  found out a lot of people don't know and clear some misconceptions.

Let's make this be a respectful conversation. =]

Now first off, personal choice? What about the animal's choice? Furthermore there is no NEED to eat meat

there is no NEED to sacrifice an animal when there are so many other substitutions available

the pain and suffering they go through is unimaginable as shown in this video; and you minus well see it since knowing the truth is better than choosing to blindly be ignorant and avoid watching it

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DECJwRKngYBs

an estimated over 140 billion animals are killed each year for the sole purpose of eating meat


and all this pain is inflicted for greed, so that the factories can generate the most money possible without thinking about the pain these animals go through as they are injected with horrible steroids and being born only to die in a dimly lit place

where is the light in that?

why do you eat meat?

the reason we are omnivores before that argument is presented is because there was some need in the past to move on to meat during evolution when vegetables became scarce; we have moved past that point

the argument of insects being used in sprays; we actually have a garden in our backyard we utilize for most vegetables. The rest we obtain from our local grocery store. Bottom line is you try to avoid it as much as possible. I severely doubt an apple suffers pain when it is eaten. Plants and some insects have a symbiotic relationship as well. As shown with the tree that has ants eat its fruit while the ants protect the tree. Google it.

If the morals of slaughtering an innocent living being for the sole sake of "MMM this tastes good" [I'm assuming this is the only reason people eat meat, as there is really no other] don't ring enough bells well how about our religion tells us?


Thank you for taking the time to read this, and God bless 


also, positive aspects of vegetarian diet and negative or meat eating diet
just for kicks below

http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

http://evolvingwellness.com/posts/663/15-reasons-why-you-may-want-to-reconsider-eating-meat/


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## PunjabiEspada (Apr 30, 2012)

also, yes, I did read some thread with the fools and the meat.

I have added some other quotes above as well

If Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji stated eating marijuana, fish, and wine is wrong....it is wrong though.....I read the rest and the context and it still says what it says

Some of these quotes are not restricted to only rituals either and they talk of how killing an animal for meat is morally wrong...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 30, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> also, yes, I did read some thread with the fools and the meat.
> 
> I have added some other quotes above as well
> 
> ...



Guru Piayario.

The SGGS is a "MIRROR"..it shows us what we look like...If we stand normal..we look normal..IF we place Two fingers like a V on top of our head..we see a "Rabbit" with a human face....IF we stretch out our tongue..what we see is human face with dog like expression....What I am getting at..its NOT the FAULT of the MIRROR...the Mirro reflects REALITY...the GURU TELLS us* EXACTLY*..what we take that to mean..is up to us..really...


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## PunjabiEspada (May 1, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piayario.
> 
> The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a "MIRROR"..it shows us what we look like...If we stand normal..we look normal..IF we place Two fingers like a V on top of our head..we see a "Rabbit" with a human face....IF we stretch out our tongue..what we see is human face with dog like expression....What I am getting at..its NOT the FAULT of the MIRROR...the Mirro reflects REALITY...the GURU TELLS us* EXACTLY*..what we take that to mean..is up to us..really...



I still firmly believe that what Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji contains is law and truth. Only some people twist it to bend to their beliefs. I see now that there is no point in showing these quotes from Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji since neither of us will change our beliefs.

Let's turn this into a simple question

Why do "you" eat meat?

[this isn't directed at the quoted person, just everyone who eats meat in general


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Indeed:
> 
> The  following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth  are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru's when seeing life in  all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
> Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> ...


Randip Singh ji,
Would you agree that higher conscious beings like humans and other animals suffer more than lower conscious (if any) beings like plants?
If an animal was put through the wooden rollers and crushed, do you reckon it would suffer more than a plant?
If rocks (lowest form of consciousness if any) were placed in the wooden rollers, do you think the would suffer less than a plant?


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

> If Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji stated eating marijuana, fish, and wine is wrong....it is wrong though.....I read the rest and the context and it still says what it says



this is incorrect, it is only wrong if you eat all three together.


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Harry ji,
Why is it wrong if you eat them all together?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 1, 2012)

My answer...
IF I am in a GURDWARA...i enjoy the dahi, lassi, daal makhnni, kheer..parathas..sabzis desi chaah pakoras, jalebis, laddoos, brfee etc etc etc..no issues etc of regret/feeling sad and down..becasue its all "tateless stuff" around me and i crave for tasty steak/zinger burger or macdonald pizza....NO WAY...

IF I am in a wedding...and there are 2 que lines of guests..I JOIN the SHORTER QUE...be it Vegetarian or Non... IF I finally arrive at the end of the Short que and find an array of watery daal, lifeless mess of ghobi egg plant etc..etc before me..I just Turn right around and join the LONG QUE....( that could be the one for kebab, chicken curry, mutton etc ) NO Issues as well

IF I am on a Plane..i look at the  MENU and chose what looks DELICIOUS...same as dine out in a restaurant..diner etc... I am certainly NOT going to pay through my nose for a tasteless salad if compared to a tasty steak....simply because of vege-non issues.. Because all this has no effect on my spiritual progress...and on my pocket...BOTH in Perfect balance...i AM HAPPY.:blueturban:


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> Why is it wrong if you eat them all together?



ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
 Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

Bhagatsinghji, 

Well, you are allowed to eat them individually, just not together


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Teeka FKW employed; all systems ready.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥  
Kabīr bẖāŉg mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāŉhi.  
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -  

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਮਛੀ ਆਦਿਕੋਂ ਕਾ ਜੋ (ਭਾਂਗ) ਮਾਸ ਔਰ (ਸੁਰਾ) ਮਦਰਾ ਭਾਵ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਹੈ ਇਨ ਵਸਤੂ ਕੋ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪੁਰਸ਼ ਖਾਤੇ (ਪਾਨਿ) ਪੀਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਮਾਸ ਕਾ ਨਾਮ ਂਭੰਗਾਂ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥
_Sri Kabir ji says that those who eat the flesh and wine from fish, etc. The author translated ਭਾਂਗ as flesh based on how the word is used by Bhai Gurdas ji: ਜੀਆਂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾਂ. ਭੰਗਾਂ means flesh._

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥  
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāŉhi. ||233||  
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||  

ਯਦਪਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮਾਦੀ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮ ਭੀ ਤਿਨੋਂ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਹੂਏ ਹੋਵੈਂ ਤੌ ਭੀ ਉਹ (ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲ) ਨਰਕ ਕੋ ਹੀ ਜਾਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਭਾਵ ਊਚ ਗਤੀ ਜੋ ਮੋਖ ਪਦ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਔ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਭਰਮਤੇ ਰਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥੨੩੩॥ ❀ਅਪਨਾ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਦੇਖਾਵਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥ 
_Even if they go on pilgrimages, hold fasts and follow religious codes, they will go to hell, meaning they will not attain a higher state that of mukti and be free from reincarnation._

Sant Kabir ji is vegetarian (and sober) Harry ji, he is telling you to stop eating meat and wine. He believes both hinder spiritual progress.


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

ah, but only if eaten together


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

...because together they are 2x the spiritual hindrance


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

ok, in all seriousness the wine is a no no, the effects are immediate and obvious even given a small quantity, but I cannot recall any obvious effect on my state of mind having just had a burger. Any effect must then have Vedic overtones, if it cannot be felt or observed, ie to do with Karma or spiritual effects, and we all know how the Gurus steered us away from that. 

In my search for the ultimate high, many years ago, I sampled many many substances, strangely enough meat was not one of them...........


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Well substances might give you a high and fake release from the ego but this is of no actual help. They do not provide lasting transformation and enlightenment. Meat is a bit harder to understand. It is said that meat (and substances as well) contain more of the quality of passion (the desire kind) and the quality of laziness, both are a hindrance to spiritual lifestyle. And that vegetables have less passion and laziness compared to meat.



> Any effect must then have Vedic overtones, if it cannot be felt or observed, ie to do with Karma or spiritual effects, and we all know how the Gurus steered us away from that.


Because only overtones, what you disagree with, which you believe is nonsense, is Vedic. Hence what is Vedic is nonsense. Hahahha!!! lol When Kabir Ji says that wine is forbidden to the spiritual seeker, that is not Vedic, but in the same breath when he says that meat is forbidden, that is Vedic. WHA??!

Jesus Christ, listen to yourself Harry ji!

PS did you find your ultimate high?


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

BhagatSinghji

Yes, I did, I believe the state is called Naam

Isnt it past your bedtime!


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

Also FKW did not use this translation of Bhang universally, P721, the teeka shows the translation remains intact, cannabis. 



ਭਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਂਗ ਖਲੜੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
भउ तेरा भांग खलड़ी मेरा चीतु ॥  
Bẖa▫o ṯerā bẖāŉg kẖalṛī merā cẖīṯ.  
O Lord, Thy fear is my hemp and my mind is the leather pouch.  
ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਜੋ ਭੈ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਮੈਨੇ ਭਾਂਗ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, ਅਰ ਤਿਸ ਕੇ ਧਾਰਨੇ ਵਾਲੀ ਜੋ ਚੰਮ ਕੀ ਖਲੜੀ ਹੋਤੀ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਚਿਤ ਹੈ, ਭਾਵ ਯਿਹ ਸਦਾ ਹੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਭੈ ਕੋ ਮੈਨੇ ਚਿਤ ਮੈਂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕੀਆ ਹੈ॥


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Harry ji,
I have never heard of Naam being called a state before. What was that like?

I have no bedtime. I do have a pass-out-when-you-run-out-of-gas time. I was meditating earlier (at a point already past my bedtime) then out of the blue I had the urge to paint. So I got up and went on my computer. I noticed Prakash ji had responded so now I am here.


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

Goodnight, big hug, I would call the state of feeling completely connected to Creation,  Naam


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Also FKW did not use this translation of Bhang universally, P721, the teeka shows the translation remains intact, cannabis.
> 
> ਭਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਂਗ ਖਲੜੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
> भउ तेरा भांग खलड़ी मेरा चीतु ॥
> ...


Chit is consciousness not mind. The mind is no leather pouch, to the mind, fear is a bad thing. Mind avoids fear. Mind feels fear, consciousness holds it like a leather pouch.

In Bhagat Kabir ji's salok the he uses the word "eat" whereas bhang is drunk.  Bhai Gurdas ji does use bhanga as flesh, in the context of a liberated butcher. He says just because a butcher (Sadhana) got liberated does not mean we should kill to eat bhanga (it can only mean meat).

Interestingly enough, the word bhang (without kanna) is also used to refer to hindrance as well as marijuana. Now in that shabad you posted, bhang is definitely an intoxicant because the next line is talking about an intoxicated hermit. The word bhanga (which was translated as meat) can also mean mistake/sin.

Time for breakfast. Who knew id be pulling off an all-nighter on SPN. Learned a lot though!


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

I hate to think my only input on this forum is the argument that Bhang can also by eaten as well as drunk!


I think we can all agree that the english translations are as good as the chinese subtitles in Star Wars Episode III. Chinese bootleggers translated the english into chinese, then back into english again for the subtitles, the result makes for a very different film, it only adds to the argument that the SGGS should be read and studied in the original language only, otherwise you are watching/reading something potentially very different. 

Star Wars Ep III - Backstroke of the West      - YouTube


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Bhang is a drink. 
HOLI FESTIVAL: bhang ritual      - YouTube

Actually, I am not sure I agree with that. IMO the English translations are quite good but that's coming from a place where I alread understand what's going on pretty well. There is definitely more depth in Gurmukhi and probably even more in the languages used like Braj. Someone who knows BRaj is probably getting the most out of it. The Freed Kote Wala Teeka is apparently also written in Braj.

Another EDIT: The scenes are a bad example as the movie was probably not translated by scholars who spent their entire life studying and practicing Star Wars.


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

http://www.indianfoodforever.com/holiday-recipes/holi/bhang-pakore.html

Bhaang Pakore Recipe

Bhaang pakore is a speciality dish eaten by the people during the festival of Holi. Bhaang pakora are a popular snack during holi festivities. Here is the recipe for bhang ke pakore.




Ingredients:



250 gms Besan (gram flour) 
200 gms Potatoes (aloo)
200 gms Cauliflower (gobhi)
150 gms Onions (pyaj)
100 gms Spinach (palak)
200 gms Brinjal (baigan)
10 gms Bhang (cannabis) seed powder 
2 gms Soda-bicarb 
5 gms Ajwain (carom seeds)
5 gms Pomegranate seed powder (anardana)
Salt to taste
Oil for deep-frying

not so fast fatso....it is also eaten


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Hahaha fatso... I wish

Yes bhang pakoras exist but I have only heard of the word "bhang" being used to refer to the drink. Either way the translation hardly changes.


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## Ambarsaria (May 1, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahaha fatso... I wish
> 
> Yes bhang pakoras exist but I have only heard of the word "bhang" being used to refer to the drink. Either way the translation hardly changes.


Bhagat Singh ji on a visit to India, if you go, you should try (just kidding), I have not.  My father once told me a tale how teachers under him did fancy things and showed great exuberance once they were fed these in a jovial trick.  Many started doing Yoga, athletics, merriment, insistence laughing, etc.

Bhang is a great multiple use vegetable.  I wonder if there is something similar in meat products!  

Regards.  lol


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

absolutely Ambarsariaji , its 5 day old steak tartare thats been left out on a hot day


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

Punjabiespadaji,

I have enough trouble keeping my mind free from agitation, focusing on my relationship with creation, and attempting  to be a good Sikh, I just have not time to mull over concepts that the Guruji in his infinite wisdom has already guided me on.

This applies equally to reincarnation, meditation, prayer, meat and a whole host of other issues I do not need to find the time to debate.


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Harry ji,


> I have enough trouble keeping my mind free from agitation


It because you don't stop doing things. You contemplate all the time, seeking contemplation to figure out your life, your relationship and ideals. Instead try waiting for the contemplation to come to you. Whenever you want to begin contemplation, or if find you are in it, finish the line of thought, then stop and wait for the next thought like a lioness who waits for the antelope, in an ambush. She gets real low and alert and looks for the perfect opportunity to ambush it's prey. It waits patiently in the grass until the antelope gets close. When it does, it jumps out and chases after it. 

Be a lioness. 

Wait for the thought and then when it arrives, say it out loud. Continue to think out loud. Now a thought is like a whole herd of antelopes. A train of thought, is not even a herd, it is like that scene from the Lion king, with Simbah dangerously trapped on that mound. Massive waves of wildebeasts, like an ocean. lol

We want to catch an antelope. An antelope is more like a word. Each word of a thought is an antelope. Now when you speak, wait for the word to come to you, as you previously waited for thoughts to come to you. Instead of looking for words to think let them come to you. Kind of like Dhur ki bani, it came to Guru Nanak, he did not chase after it. Let words come to your mouth. dhur ki bani aayi... tin sagli chint mitaee. 

Do not attempt this in public. Unless you happen to be in India amongst people doing Bhang. 

PunjabiEspada ji,
OK I am ready to answer since I got a chance to observe it.
I eat it for the same reason I eat vegetables... actually, it's not a reason, there are no reasons here. I get hungry, I seek tasty food, I eat. Nowhere during that process do I begin to have reasons. Nowhere do I begin to differentiate between meat and vegetables. It's all food to me. I eat whatever available.  I do not consider the individual spices, herbs, chemicals, preservatives in it either when I eat. I just enjoy the sensory whoopie it gives me on my taste buds and move on.

Now later on I do make up reasons to post on SPN. That I was created to eat food. The purpose of my life is to eat, as ordained by God. If I don't, the divine purpose will not be fulfilled. If the divine purpose is not fulfilled, the universe will come to a halt. The divine purpose must keep operating and the moment it is stops means the end of the world. Thus to keep the entire universe running, I eat. 

But going back to the actual experience, there are no reasons there. There is no "why". There is simply the being and doing (getting hungry and eating food).


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## Luckysingh (May 1, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> so...maybe no one read it but I'll ask again
> 
> why do you guys eat meat? [directed at meat eaters again]
> 
> just wondering


 
I think most of the meat eaters here in the west eat it as it is cheap enough!!!!.
At one time in the west, you used to have to pay much extra for meat dishes. But nowadays, the veggie food or dishes in a diner/restaurant are ridiculously priced as high as any meat dishes!!!
So, it's not a difficult choice for one that doesn't mind veggie or non-veggie is it??
I mean pizzas, wether veggie or meat are all priced the same. So the customer, in terms of getting satisfaction and value for money is going to opt for the 12 inch meat lovers delight instead of veg/cheese.-you bet!!

You would also not be surprised that here in Vancouver there are many many punjabi pizza places. Most of them do the tasty tandoori and other indian pizzas. 
But folks, I've heard that you can even get servings by the slice, I assume, of indian 'bhang' pizzas!!!!- That beats the pakoras, I say.!!!!

Strangely enough, I actually heard this from some white folk who enjoy the indian pizzas compared to dominoes!!!- (a gora informs you what the punjabi services can provide!-.....crazy.....!!)


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## PunjabiEspada (May 2, 2012)

if you're agitated, kay, but yo there is really no reason to worry about creation; whatever happened, happened and no one will ever know how the universe was created and there is no theory that comes even close to finding out how. I do not seek heated debate; I only seek to inform

and taste, I figured, got it

oh and most veggie items are actually cheaper ie. Freebirds vegetarian burritos and subway's veggie delite subs [both amazingly delicious]

anyways you do know that in order for people to achieve that taste, innocent animals nowadays are subjected to horrific conditions in factories and killed horribly

not to sound like a pretentious you-know-what; but when I ate meat, I at least wanted to know the truth and not blindly be ignorant; since realization of truth is above all else, and higher still is truthful living

this video really shows what goes on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECJwRKngYBs

all I'm saying is, is taste really worth the mass pain and suffering on this scale of animals?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 2, 2012)

Punjabiespada Ji,

Whats your take on the Sugar cane shabad...??? why sugar cane and not a squealing pig as shown in the video ?? Can ONLY Guru nanak ji "hear" the crying sugar cane...( on our Human Plane..Dogs can hear sounds a human ear cant pick up and thats a Fact not KNOWN until very recently....so just becasue we cannot hear the carrot screaming..doesnt meant it is happy to be slaughtered...Gurbanee says..JEEAN ka AHAAR JEEA..Life feeds LIFE. Period........and REMEMBER a HUMAN SCREAMS the LOUDEST under torture..being killed...under suffering....Aitee maar payee KURLANNEH is being done by HUMANS...


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## BhagatSingh (May 2, 2012)

Gyani ji,


> Would you agree that higher conscious beings like humans and other animals suffer more than lower conscious (if any) beings like plants?
> If an animal was put through the wooden rollers and crushed, do you reckon it would suffer more than a plant?
> If rocks (lowest form of consciousness if any) were placed in the wooden rollers, do you think the would suffer less than a plant?


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## PunjabiEspada (May 2, 2012)

There is life in sugar cane, true.

But the nervous systems of animals such as cows and pigs are obviously a lot more vast and they are obviously feel a great deal of pain when undergoing these conditions; much more than plants who lack a nervous system.

Animals also possess emotions and the level of pain and suffering inflicted during the modern day era is ridiculously massive due to human greed

which is why I just don't see the need for all this mass pain and suffering dealt to these animals when there is another clearly available, healthy, and cheap option of being vegetarian

It's a simple matter of morals. Contribute to this massive slaughter of 140 billion animals suffering on a huge scale a year under horrific conditions for "taste" or just choose to not eat meat


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 2, 2012)

For whats it worth..I DONT condone whats shown in these and many similar videos put up by Animal Rights Activists and groups...in Fact i THROW UP within the first 30 seconds or so....and even worse are videos of testing on animals, animals being killed for fur gall bladders etc etc.. So no argument there.

My point is that Guru ji doesnt want us to MISS the Plant World...The cruelty involved in the Animal World is so huge and obvious that we ( and everyone else esp those who claim higehr spirituality simply based on their vege diets and NOTHING ELSE )..in THAT sense Gurbanee presents a Balanced role for us to follow.

Btw..i own a family of 8 dogs..who love me too much and i love them back too much to let them be deprived of their meat diet....i cnat imagine my dogs liivng on green peas and potatoes...so i like a billion other humans who have pets..just CANNOT get off the "meat buying"" wagon...as for me.....no matter how cruel the slaughter houses are...i feel PITY for the DEER racing its heart out before being driven into the ground by the cheetah or the lioness..biting its head off...i feel so much pity for the poor buffalo mother trying so hard to save her foal from the Relentless lions, jackals and hyennas..who will not rest until they have fed themselves...such is LIFE..and we live it to the best of our abilities..each to his own...no guilt and nor self righteous high horse riding...minimize suffering...


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> I still firmly believe that what Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji contains is law and truth. Only some people twist it to bend to their beliefs. I see now that there is no point in showing these quotes from Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji since neither of us will change our beliefs.
> 
> Let's turn this into a simple question
> 
> ...



God help us, if this is pitiful state of Sikhs. I have lost count of the number of PunjabiEspada's we've had on here sticking their noses into the buisness of what they eat.

What business is it of yours what people eat? The Rehat Maryada clearly allows Sikhs to eat meat. Are you a higher authority than the Akal Takht? Bani does not have a view on this. People just twist it to suit their own pallet.


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Teeka FKW employed; all systems ready.
> 
> ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
> कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥
> ...



Don't eat buttered bread either:

*Page 1379*
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in         terrible pain.  || 28 |


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> if you're agitated, kay, but yo there is really no reason to worry about creation; whatever happened, happened and no one will ever know how the universe was created and there is no theory that comes even close to finding out how. I do not seek heated debate; I only seek to inform
> 
> and taste, I figured, got it
> 
> ...



Stop your scaremongering nonsense please!!! This sounds like an advert from those loonies at Peta.

You can buy organic. You can buy responsibly sourced. You can go to farms and select your own. You can rear your own. There are a number of options. ......and Subway and fast food generally is crap!! I would not touch it with a barge poll.


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> There is life in sugar cane, true.
> 
> But the nervous systems of animals such as cows and pigs are obviously a lot more vast and they are obviously feel a great deal of pain when undergoing these conditions; much more than plants who lack a nervous system.
> 
> ...



Which morals? Your morals? Sikh morals?

Have you seen the horrendous suffering that mass crop farming produces to wild life? Any idea what pesticides do to the water table and rivers?


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Randip Singh ji,
> Would you agree that higher conscious beings like humans and other animals suffer more than lower conscious (if any) beings like plants?
> If an animal was put through the wooden rollers and crushed, do you reckon it would suffer more than a plant?
> If rocks (lowest form of consciousness if any) were placed in the wooden rollers, do you think the would suffer less than a plant?



I don't know who suffers more or less. As soon as we as humans suffer bad pain we go into trauma and hence cutting out pain.

What I do know is that Baba Nanak chose in Bani to use a metaphor of a plant suffering pain. Surely that is absurd?


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Teeka FKW employed; all systems ready.
> 
> ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
> कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥
> ...



Surely this is in the context of Fools who wrangle over flesh. If put into context this shabad is not talking about fish, flesh meat or anything but those who have lots of money and exploit others.So the mistranslation is irrelevant.

*1.  Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what  pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.  (Sri Guru Granth Sahib p1337)*

 In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English: 

_mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat._
231 
_kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh._
_bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh._ 232 
_kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi._
_tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi._ 233
_neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi._
_sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi._ 234 
_aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o._
_neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o._ 235 
_sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o._
_jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o._ 236 
_kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi._
_arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi._237 
_har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay._
_kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay._ 238 
_kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay._
_khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay._ 239 
_kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl._
_kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl._240 
_dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant._
_kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant._ 241 
_har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas._
_tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas._ 242 
_kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag._
_bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag._ 243 

_He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked._
231
_Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,_
_whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy._ 232
_Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -_
_no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell._ 233
_Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart._
_I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know._234
_Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord._
_Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart._ 235
_Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul._
_I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my _soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart._ 236_
_Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees._
_He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas._ 237
_The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up._
_Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it._ 238
_Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball._
_Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be._ 239
_Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment._
_Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour._ 240
_Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint._
_Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?_


Taking out the sentence we see ​ 

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine – 

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 


Firstly  note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in  Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a  forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in  reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two  lines the statement is made: 

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag. 
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world. 

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243 
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 


Now  putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually  criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are  addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was  born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim  weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the  poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who  had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with  either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir  abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses  of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do  their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are  the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will  suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment  about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain  foods (as has been misrepresented).


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## Randip Singh (May 3, 2012)

PunjabiEspada said:


> also, yes, I did read some thread with the fools and the meat.
> 
> I have added some other quotes above as well
> 
> ...



Well if you have a problem with it debate it there and not here. You clearly have no understanding of what that essay is about.

Note- Anymore out of context Bani quotes will be deleted.


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