# Nigura



## singhbj (May 14, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

A NIGURA is a person who has NO GURU. 

Baba Amar Das was living in a village called Basarke near Amritsar. Before coming in contact with the second Nanak, he was a firm believer of Vaishnav faith and used to fast regularly. Every year he went to Hardwar for pilgrimage, bathed in the river Ganges and would give alms to the poor. It was the twenty-first year of his pilgrimage and he was sixty-two years old when an incident shook him to the core. He was coming back from Hardwar when he decided to lay down to sleep outside the village of Mihra. Here he met a Vaishnav Sadhu (a monk) with whom he became quite friendly. They cooked the food and ate their meal together. As they continued their journey and as the monk found Baba Amar Das zealously discharging all the duties of a pious Hindu, he asked him (Baba) who his guru was who taught him such piety and wisdom. Baba Amar Das replied that he had no guru. On hearing this monk said,"I have committed a sin by eating from the hands of a man who has no guru. My ablutions, bathing in the Ganges, are of no avail now. I can only be purified if I return to bathe in the Ganges again." After lamenting like this, the Sadhu departed. This was a great shock to Baba Amar Das and he was jolted to the core of his heart thinking he was a man of no guru (Nigura). He started thinking seriously how he could find a guru and he prayed for that. One day early in the morning he heard a divine melody which thrilled his heart and he stood spell-bound listening to the hymn. This was voice of Bibi Amro, Guru Angad's daughter, who was recently married to Baba Amar Das' nephew. It was Bibi Amro's daily routine to wake up early, bathe and recite Japji and other hymns of Guru Nanak. Bibi Amro had recited the following Shabad which was heard by Baba Amar Das: "Neither sisters, sisters-in-law, nor mothers-in-law remain with one; but the true relationship with the Beloved, when found through the Guru, shall never be sundered. I am a sacrifice to my Guru, I am ever a sacrifice unto him. I have grown weary of wandering so far without a Guru; Now the Guru hath united me with my Beloved. (Maru M'halla 1, p-1015)

The purpose in telling this episode is that a GURU is VITAL. All through the Yugs the GURU alwasy gave DIKHYA to a CHELA..INITIATION RITES. Without the Initiation Rite no one could be a Chela. A YOGI had to be buried up to his neck, and his ears torn to accomodate a pair of Blobs of glass and then only could he call himslef a YOGI....simialr initiation rites were for all sects. Guru nanak Ji to Guur teg bahadur Ji..the initiation rite was CHARAN PAHUL..

When in 1699 Guru gobind Rai ji initiated the PUNJ into the KHALSA..and then TOOK the PAHUL from THEM to transform from Guru Gobind rai to GURU GOBIND SINGH..this INITIATION RITE of Khanda Batte dee Pahul became the SIKH PAHUL. Thus the PUNJ in the Form of GURU GOBIND SINGH JI now Give this PAHUL to those who seek it.
Thus ONLY the PAHUL ABHILAKHEES are given the Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji KI fateh "WAHEGURU" GURMANTAR. ONLY after this PAHUL Ceremony of DIKHYA..can an initiate call himself KHALSA and recite WAHEGURU.

Since 1699 NO SINGLE PERSON..no matter how holy exalted baba ji mahraj ji, satguru ji guru ji whatever...can GIVE this GURMANTAR PAHUL to anyone...ONLY the PUNJ CAN. And even the FIVE KHALSA Ji can give this Gurmantar in the PRESENCE of GURU GRANTH JI SAHIB ONLY..no where else.

Without being a member of the Khalsa...the word "waheguru" is just a word. Just like i can say i am "doctor"..but without the Authorised "degree" from an authorised medical university Board...the word "doctor" is just a word...no body can stop me from saying i am a doctor..but it just wont work. To get full benefit from WAHEGURU GURMANTAR..one MUST recieve it as GURU DIKHYA from the PUNJ KHALSA in the presence of GURU Granth ji.

Without "Khande batte de pahul"..you can Japp any of the Kiratm naams of Waheguru that occur in GURBANI..you can jap har har, hari hari, gobind gobind...all HELP...but the ULTIMATE is WAHEGURU. IF you can reach the PEAK of Everest...why be satisfied with the plains of BIHAR..although no harm done if BIIHAR satisfies you..aapo aapnee marzee hai. Remember Har har etc EXISTED before GURU NANAK JYOT...IF they were "sufficent" there was no need for GURU JI to come..but GURU JI came to offer this better faster solution...in KALYUG.

Har Gunn SUNNEH..is "LISTENING". Har gunnParddeh..is also LISTENING..and this is only possible through Naam japp..and that will lead you to Har Gunn samaieea...immersion

Gyaan Shabds are to Give GYAAN..the "how to"..and the Naam japp shabads are the RESULT of "how to". Our ultimate aim is RESULT ORIENTED....reading the RECIPE is fine..read it again and again to memeorise it...so as to be perfect..BUT the TEST is in the TASTE of the CAKE we bake from the RECIPE...the more we "know" the recipe..the better will be our cake...the more we read the GYAAN shabds..the Tastier will be our Naam japp..bt the ULTIMATE RESULT is NAAM JAPP - without this..NO MUKTEE..we have to present our CAKE...not tell GOD..we read your recipe a million times...sorry no time to bake a cake !!

Source : 
GURU ANGAD DEVhttp://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/5281-why-do-we-read-gurbani-2.html

(taken from a reply posted earlier at this forum by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji)
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/5281-why-do-we-read-gurbani-2.html
http://www.sikhpoint.com/religion/creatertruth&sikhism/10gurus/angaddev.htm 


Some people say that a person goes to the Panj with "information" he already has.

I beleive Veer ji is referring to WAHEGURU GURMANTAR. Nearly everyone has 'heard" the word WAHEGURU...even if one is NOT an Amrtidharee. I had known about this word since i was FIVE but I only took Amrit at age 55...so DID the PANJ give me "knowledge" that i already had for 50 years ??

The answer is NO. I "knew" the WORD WAHEGURU....for 50 years..BUT it was given to me as a GURMANTAR by the FIVE, when I chhak Amrit.

Anybody can know the WORD Waheguru, hear it, read it, know about it...BUT ONLY the PANJ can give it to an AMRITDHAREE during the Amrit Sanchaar. Then ONLY does it become the GURMANTAR....as a NIGURRA ( without Guru) cannot have a GURMANTAR.

A Medical student may go into the examination Hall with all the "information" he needs to be a doctor...BUT unless He PASSES the EXAMINATION and is awarded a MEDICAL DEGREE...all that INFORMATION is of NO USE to him. He cannot PRACTISE as a Doctor....UNTIL he is awarded the DEGREE...by the Examination Board of the University.

Similarly a SIKH may have all the knowledge, all the gurbani, etc etc..He is a NIGURA until he appears before the PUNJ, takes Amrit, and gets the GURMANTAR.

Source: (taken from a reply posted earlier at this forum by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji)
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/5485-vaheguru-gurmantar-hai.html


A reminder to us all to wake up and follow the dictates of Guru Gareeb Niwaz Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji to take Amrit Pahul and relinquish our ways and follow the  Sikh Rehat. Without Rehat we can not call ourselves Sikhs of the Guru. 

Even the name of the Nigura person is not worth mentioning. This is what Satguru Ji has said in Gurbani about persons who do not take Amrit Pahul and live according to the dictations of the Guru.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਨਿਗੁਰੇ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਉ ਬੁਰਾ ॥੧੩॥ 
सतिगुर बाझहु गुरु नही कोई निगुरे का है नाउ बुरा ॥१३॥ 
Saṯgur bājẖahu gur nahī ko&shy;ī nigurė kā hai nā&shy;o burā. ||13|| 
Without the True Guru, there is no Guru at all; one who is without a Guru has a bad reputation. ||13||

Source: Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## spnadmin (May 14, 2008)

singhbj said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਨਿਗੁਰੇ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਉ ਬੁਰਾ ॥੧੩॥
> ...



The last line of your comments are the bottom line for me, and should be for others as well. Without the True Guru, there is no Guru at all...

But most respected Singhbj ji, the 5 Beloved are not Guru, Waheguru, Satguru. Yes thee are many who are devout, pious, and Piaaraa of God. But they are human beings. Do all  Panj Piaaraaee in every sangath on the planet speak with the divine insight that you give them in your comments above? My questions is a friendly question, and not intended to spark a debate, so much as a dialog about the spiritual wisdom of panj piaaraaee.


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## pk70 (May 14, 2008)

*Respected Singhbj ji*
*I know you have just quoted some ones views, so my comments are not addressed to you,  please forgive me if I couldn’t like whatever is posted since  I see the views are not aligned with Guru Granth Sahib ji  and also of Guru Gobind Singh Ji *
  Without being a member of the Khalsa...the word "waheguru" is just a word. Just like i can say i am "doctor"..but without the Authorised "degree" from an authorised medical university Board...the word "doctor" is just a word...no body can stop me from saying i am a doctor..but it just wont work.
*Whoever expresses this view, are not right. In pursuit of spiritual growth, there is no need of degree from any institution, only surrendering “I”  and " surat"to Guru is required. *

   To get full benefit from WAHEGURU GURMANTAR..one MUST recieve it as GURU DIKHYA from the PUNJ KHALSA in the presence of GURU Granth ji. Nigura singh bj
  Without "Khande batte de pahul"..you can Japp any of the Kiratm naams of Waheguru that occur in GURBANI..you can jap har har, hari hari, gobind gobind...all HELP...but the ULTIMATE is WAHEGURU. IF you can reach the PEAK of Everest...why be satisfied with the plains of BIHAR..although no harm done if BIIHAR satisfies you..aapo aapnee marzee hai.
*All above views are out put of a closed mind. Saying so, that person, ignores teachings of Japji( Four realms and going through it with help from Guru) and pushes a different agenda. The guy is saying that saying Waheguru is like  I am  saying“I am Doctor” who hasn’t medical degree”.  What a comparison!  The guy is forgetting that “Doctor” word is used for oneself but Waheguru word is recited to infuse His memory within. Comparison is funny. Remember” NAON layeeai nark n jaeeai( by reciting His Name(in sincerity), there is no hell”! Let me state it clearly, no initiation can help unless a battle within is started. People seldom do that and keep hanging on outward appearance. Naam is not given or taken, it is realized by following Guru ji and killing” I’ which some times advocates identity, superiority over others , gets dragged by anger, lust, greed. No support about above views is found in Guru Granth Sahib ji and not a single line Tenth Nanak added to support this even if it were the base of the Sikhism. Why? Guru ji found Guru Granth Sahib ji perfect to guide people through ages. People have time to lecture all this but a few join the struggle within directed by Gurbani.*

  you can jap har har, hari hari, gobind gobind...all HELP...but the ULTIMATE is WAHEGURU. IF you can reach the PEAK  of Everest...why be satisfied with the plains of BIHAR..although no harm done if BIIHAR satisfies you..aapo aapnee marzee hai. Remember Har har etc EXISTED before GURU NANAK JYOT...IF they were "sufficent" there was no need for GURU JI to come..but GURU JI came to offer this better faster solution...in KALYUG.

* If it were not sufficient, would it be right to say before Guru Nanak, all Bhagats who are accepted by Gurbani as blessed ones to realize Him, still wandering cycle of birth and death?  Peak and plains! Peak comes when “I” is gone, not with talks on T.V. or discourses on CD.s but by living Gurbani.  Some people give reason good enough to be believable, here see the guys’ confusion about Naam and degrees.*

Quote 

  Since 1699 NO SINGLE PERSON..no matter how holy exalted baba ji mahraj ji, satguru ji guru ji whatever...can GIVE this GURMANTAR PAHUL to anyone...ONLY the PUNJ CAN. And even the FIVE KHALSA Ji can give this Gurmantar in the PRESENCE of GURU GRANTH JI SAHIB ONLY..no where else.

*Punj Pyaras give Amrit, an entery into Khalsa Fauj, Gurmantra is achieved through living Gurbani.  A Sikh can be Sehajdhari or Khalsa. No single person or group has any capacity to be equal of Guru Shabad regardless the claims they boast about. Sikhism lives with in Guru Granth Sahib stamped by Tenth Nanak.  Khalsa is also part of GGS Ji.*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 15, 2008)

> _I beleive Veer ji is referring to WAHEGURU GURMANTAR. Nearly everyone has 'heard" the word WAHEGURU...even if one is NOT an Amrtidharee. I had known about this word since i was FIVE but I only took Amrit at age 55...so DID the PANJ give me "knowledge" that i already had for 50 years ??
> 
> The answer is NO. I "knew" the WORD WAHEGURU....for 50 years..BUT it was given to me as a GURMANTAR by the FIVE, when I chhak Amrit.
> 
> Anybody can know the WORD Waheguru, hear it, read it, know about it...BUT ONLY the PANJ can give it to an AMRITDHAREE during the Amrit Sanchaar. Then ONLY does it become the GURMANTAR....as a NIGURRA ( without Guru) cannot have a GURMANTAR._


The question really is "what is Gurmantara?"  Is it just a word you hear and know about?  What makes it go from a word you speak to Gurmantara?  Is it the amrit ceremony?  How does it go from word on the mouth (bani), to word in the consciousness (Naam)?  How can we understand the Shabad Naam as something beyond the physical roop of vocal utterance making it unlike any other word?

Let's look at it.  



> _Guru Ji imparts self-knowledge (Awqm igAwn), which removes the veil of ignorance that separates us from Vaheguru. Guru Ji also gives his Sikhs the ‘Gurmantar’ (the Divine Name) whose unbroken chanting or meditation brings the individual mental-control and inner purity. Both of these essentials of spirituality have been provided to us by our Guru, Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. We have been blessed with the Gurbaani for self-knowledge, and the Gurmantar is bestowed to us by the Guru-roop Panj Piaare and Guru Granth Sahib Ji’.
> 
> ‘Vaheguru’ (also spelt ‘Waheguru’) is the Gurmantar for the Sikhs (invocatory formula received from the Guru) or NAAM for repetition (silently or aloud) and meditation upon the Supreme Reality. The Gurmantar has been passed down to from the Guru to the Sikhs in initiation ceremonies (Amrit Sanskaar). The Panth Sikh Rehat Maryada describes this:
> “(o) After this the five beloved ones, all together in chorus, communicating the name of Waheguru to all who have been administered the ambrosial baptism…” (Article XXIII, Chapter XIII)
> ...


The operative words here are _*"Guruji imparts..."*_  What does this mean?

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਬਾਜੈ ਲੋਕੁ ਸੁਣੇ ॥ 
surath sabadh saakhee maeree sinn(g)ee baajai lok sunae ||
Awareness of the Shabad and the Teachings is my horn; the people hear the sound of its vibrations.
SGGS Ji p. 77​


ਧਿਆਨ ਰੂਪਿ ਹੋਇ ਆਸਣੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ 
dhhiaan roop hoe aasan paavai ||
Becoming the embodiment of meditation, he attains the true Yogic posture.  

ਸਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਾੜੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
sach naam thaarree chith laavai ||2||
He focuses his consciousness in the deep trance of the True Name. ||2||

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
naanak bolai anmrith baanee ||
Nanak chants the Ambrosial Bani.
~SGGS Ji p. 877​


ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਬਟੂਆ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਭਸਮਾਧਾਰੀ ॥ 
khandd brehamandd mehi sinn(g)ee maeraa battooaa sabh jag bhasamaadhhaaree ||
The solar systems and galaxies are my horn; the whole world is the bag to carry my ashes. 

ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਗੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਲੁ ਪਲਟੀਐ ਛੂਟੈ ਹੋਇ ਪਸਾਰੀ ॥੨॥ 
thaarree laagee thripal palatteeai shhoottai hoe pasaaree ||2||
Eliminating the three qualities and finding release from this world is my deep meditation. ||2|| 

ਮਨੁ ਪਵਨੁ ਦੁਇ ਤੂੰਬਾ ਕਰੀ ਹੈ ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗ ਸਾਰਦ ਸਾਜੀ ॥ 
man pavan dhue thoonbaa karee hai jug jug saaradh saajee ||
My mind and breath are the two gourds of my fiddle, and the Lord of all the ages is its frame.
~SGGS Ji p. 334
​

So we're looking at something that involves the mind, the consciousness, the breath and the vibration of the sound.  And it has the quality to give you true release from physicality.  So it has to involve some quality which is beyond the mere physicality of vocal sounds.  These sound vibrations have the power to penetrate the consciousness and lift it out of the physicality through dhyaan.  So we see that dhyaan is a quality of being entranced in the Naam and experiencing the consciousness outside of the body-cage.  You cannot be absorbed in the sensual perception of sansaara and be consciously attuned to the Divine.  But unlike severe tapas, deprivations, austerities, force, self-mutilation, Gurbani states the body is a tool, a vehicle for this absorption, on the breath, and on the tongue, amrit bani is the boat:


ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਮਨੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਭਾਇ ਸੁਭਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੪॥ 
kaaeiaa andhar anmrith sar saachaa man peevai bhaae subhaaee hae ||4||
Deep within the body is the true pool of Ambrosial Nectar; the mind drinks it in with loving devotion. ||4||



ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਹੰਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੩॥ 
naam rathae param hans bairaagee nij ghar thaarree laaee hae ||3||
Attuned to the Naam, the supreme soul-swans remain detached; in the home of the self, they remain absorbed in deep meditative trance. ||3||

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਸੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥ 
sabadh marai soee jan pooraa ||
That humble being who dies in the Shabad is perfect.  

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ਸੂਰਾ ॥ 
sathigur aakh sunaaeae sooraa ||
The brave, heroic True Guru chants and proclaims this.

ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਮਨੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਭਾਇ ਸੁਭਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੪॥ 
kaaeiaa andhar anmrith sar saachaa man peevai bhaae subhaaee hae ||4||
Deep within the body is the true pool of Ambrosial Nectar; the mind drinks it in with loving devotion. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 1046​


How can an ordinary word accomplish this?  After all, people are all hearing the word, Vaheguru.  But are they hearing it in the same way, on the same level of consciousness as someone who receives amrit deekhya?  What does amrit deekhya impart to the seeker/shishya that transforms this word in his experience?



ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰ ਸੋਇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਇਆ । 
gur sikhu sikhu gur soi alakhu|akhaaiaa|
Being one with each other the Guru and the Sikh have made the Lord perceptible (in the form of Guru).

*ਗੁਰ ਦੀਖਿਆ* ਲੈ ਸਿਖਿ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ । 
*gur deekhiaa*|ai sikhi sikhu sadaaiaa|
Getting *initiated by the Guru* the disciple has become a Sikh.

ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖ ਇੱਕੋ ਹੋਇ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ । 
gur sikh iko hoi jo gur bhaaiaa|
It was the Lord’s desire that the Guru and the disciple would become one.
~Vaar 3 Pauri 11 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​


ਗੁਪਤੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
gupathee baanee paragatt hoe ||
The hidden Bani of the Word is revealed.

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਖਿ ਲਏ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੫੩॥ 
naanak parakh leae sach soe ||53||
O Nanak, the True Lord is revealed and known. ||53||  

ਸਹਜ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ 
sehaj bhaae mileeai sukh hovai ||
Meeting with the Lord through intuition and love, peace is found.  

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਗੈ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ 
guramukh jaagai needh n sovai ||
The Gurmukh remains awake and aware; he does not fall sleep.  

ਸੁੰਨ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ 
sunn sabadh aparanpar dhhaarai ||
He enshrines the unlimited, absolute Shabad deep within.  

ਕਹਤੇ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੈ ॥ 
kehathae mukath sabadh nisathaarai ||
Chanting the Shabad, he is liberated, and saves others as well. 

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਸੇ ਸਚਿ ਰਾਤੇ ॥ 
gur kee dheekhiaa sae sach raathae ||
Those who practice the Guru's Teachings are attuned to the Truth.
 ~SGGS Ji p. 944​


ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਤਿਹਾਂ ਗੁਣਾ ਕੀ ਪੰਡ ਉਤਾਰੈ ॥ 
so panddith jo thihaan gunaa kee pandd outhaarai ||
He alone is a Pandit, who sheds the load of the three qualities. 

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ 
anadhin eaeko naam vakhaanai ||
Night and day, he chants the Name of the One Lord.  

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਓਹੁ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਲੇਇ ॥ 
sathigur kee ouhu dheekhiaa laee ||
He accepts the Teachings of the True Guru.  

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਸੀਸੁ ਧਰੇਇ ॥ 
sathigur aagai sees dhharaee ||
He offers his head to the True Guru.  

ਸਦਾ ਅਲਗੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ॥ 
sadhaa alag rehai nirabaan ||
He remains forever unattached in the state of Nirvaanaa.  

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੩॥ 
so panddith dharageh paravaan ||3||
Such a Pandit is accepted in the Court of the Lord. ||3||  

ਸਭਨਾਂ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ 
sabhanaan mehi eaeko eaek vakhaanai ||
He preaches that the One Lord is within all beings.  

ਜਾਂ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਖੈ ਤਾਂ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ 
jaan eaeko vaekhai thaan eaeko jaanai ||
As he sees the One Lord, he knows the One Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1261​

Clearly we can see Gurbani is telling us that the Sikh is the one who gives his head, his will, and unites himself to the teachings of the True Guru by practicing what the Guru says.  The Sikh is not just anybody who reads Gurbani.  It is true Naam is in the Gurbani, but the Naam Guruji gives us is something we chant on the tongue and with the breath and vibrate this into our very being.

How can reading alone give you this *jugti?*  It is true, that singing the Kirtan of the Lord's praise is also absorbing consciusness in the Shabad Naam.  But this practice with the breath and chant of Gurmantara, with simran and dhyaan to have thaaree is something else.  What is true thaaree (not the absorbing the mind on bhoots and preets and djinns and lesser devtas but becoming maastan, entranced consciousness on the Beloved with complete bhairaag.)  The Guru's bani contains the praise of the Naam, the Jyot of the Naam, the Shabad of the Naam, but what is Naam?  Clearly it's a name that we can chant with each and every breath and try to accomplish at each and every moment placing surti on that Naam, that Divine Presence.  And this is what will lift us up, out of the three gunas, out of material consciousness.  This is what closes the nine gates of the body to open the tenth.  The awareness is redirected out of this world to 


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਜਗੁ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਫਿਰੈ ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਗਈ ਖਾਇ ॥ 
bin sabadhai jag dhukheeaa firai manamukhaa no gee khaae ||
Without the Shabad, the world wanders lost in pain. The self-willed manmukh is consumed.  

ਸਬਦੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਸਬਦੇ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥ 
sabadhae naam dhhiaaeeai sabadhae sach samaae ||4||
Through the Shabad, meditate on the Naam; through the Shabad, you shall merge in Truth. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 67​

Clearly we are not just meditating on the shabad, but meditating on the Naam as a vehicle, as a boat by which we transcend ordinary consciousness, to become entranced,  thaarree, with the Parabrahm which is not perceivable with physical senses.  We have to lift up to meet Him.  We have to go to the higher level.  All the Gursikh practices, the charity, the discipline of surrender, keeping the hukam of His command purifies us, Naam japna purifies the inner mind, so we can accomplish this merging and attain samaadhee.  This is the practice of Gursikhi.  You can't achieve this without the self-surrender and dedication of offering your head and keeping your faithful commitment to be the Guru's Sikh.  And you do this by following the Guru's way, which is Khande Ki Pahul.  That is how you obtain amrit deeksha which is Gur deekhya.  And the Naam Gurmantar is Vaheguru.  That is the power word.  That is the vehicle which is the boat to transcending the ordinary consciousness which is in bondage to the material realm, and thus deluded by Maya and duality and lacks intuitive understanding which is the real perception which gives you darshan of the Vaheguru.

That is the power and method of the Naam.  It lifts you up.  And it lifts you out.  It takes your consciousness into the Beyondness.  And then you are free.  That is what everybody longs for.  We long to transcend the dirt of this world.  We long to transcend the failure and shame of this limited ego-identity, so full of problems, so full of karam, so incapable of grasping the pure Truth.  It's nothing the brain can accomplish, or even  good deeds.  True holiness uses these as a vehicle to apprehend the Real Self hiding behind appearances.  In true devotion, bhagkti, you leave yourself behind.


ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਏ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
Kaho Kabīr jan bẖaė kẖālsė parėm bẖagaṯ jih jānī. ॥4॥3॥
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa
who know the Lord's loving devotional worship.॥4॥3॥
~SGGS Ji p. 655​

Without the Guru roop in Guru Panth, this could not be accomplished.  That's why we don't only have Shabad Guru Ji Maharaag, but we have Guru Khalsa Panth which is Guru's sargun roop in the Panj Piare.  Guruji Himself knelt down before them and said:

He baptized the five in a new and unique ceremony called pahul, what Sikhs today know as the baptism ceremony called Amrit. Then the Guru asked those five baptized Sikhs to baptize him as well. This is how he became known as Guru Chela both teacher and student. He then proclaimed that the Panj Pyare -- the Five Beloved Ones -- would be the embodiment of the Guru himself: "Where there are Panj Pyare, there am I. When the Five meet, they are the holiest of the holy."



> _"...whenever and wherever five baptized (Amritdhari) Sikhs come together, the Guru would be present. All those who receive Amrit from five baptized Sikhs will be infused with the spirit of courage and strength to sacrifice. Thus with these principles he established Panth Khalsa, the Order of the Pure Ones."
> Panj Piare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_




ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
sathasangath sathagur paaeeai ahinis sabadh salaahi ||1|| rehaao ||
The True Guru is found in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. Day and night, praise the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 22​

And this is recorded in the Sarbloh Granth.  As you know Dasam Pita Ji didn't put His bani in Guru Granth Sahib.  But it is still His bani, and it has been faithfully kept as Panthic tradition that we have Guru Granth and Guru Panth.  If you disbelieve the tradition and bani which tells you Guruji put His Jyot into the Panj Piare, why do you believe the same tradition which tells you Guruji put His Jyot into the Gur Shabad?  If we did not have Guru's Shabad-Jyot in the Panj Piare, we could not have Gur Deekhya and Gurmantara.  So this tells us why Guruji left Guru Panth as well as Guru Granth.  It isn't a liberation which is obtain by meditating on bani alone.  The Shabad gives us the Naam, and the Naam is the Gurmantara.  But it's the total process of putting the awareness on Guru's teachings in Gurbani, the commitment and dedication to change your whole identity, your outward appearance, in some cases your very name, your behavior, your practice of life by keeping the Code of Conduct and being a part of a True sangat which is devoted to the Naam, which all work to transform you and cleanse the filth of ages so the little jyot trapped in sansaara can merge with the nirgun Jyot.  


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਵੇਸੁ ॥ 
anthar mail n outharai dhhrig jeevan dhhrig vaes ||
If inner filth is not removed, one's life is cursed, and one's clothes are cursed.  

ਹੋਰੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥੧॥ 
hor kithai bhagath n hovee bin sathigur kae oupadhaes ||1||
There is no other way to perform devotional worship, except through the Teachings of the True Guru. ||1||  

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ॥ 
man rae guramukh agan nivaar ||
O mind, become Gurmukh, and extinguish the fire within.
~SGGS Ji p. 22
​

Without this total change and conformity to the True Guru, how can we ourselves merge to become the Guru?  What else can we read Bhai Gurdas Ji in context of the Gurbani?  This is Guru's path.  This is Guru's way.  This is Guru's teaching.  This is Guru's example.  This is Sikh history and tradition.  Following your own definitions to do liberation on your own terms will get you nowhere.  To become liberated you must be commited, attached to, not by affection, fickle feeling, the delusion of opinion, by by bond to a Satguru and dedicate to live His teachings, which is obtained through formal initiation, like a marriage.  You don't get liberated just by getting amrit chukk.  But that is the first step of clinging to Guru *AS* your Guru, your guide.  


ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਅਤਿ ਸਬਲ ਹੈ ਛਡੇ ਨ ਕਿਤੈ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ 
eihu manooaa ath sabal hai shhaddae n kithai oupaae ||
This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it just by trying.
~SGGS Ji p. 33​

You take Him as your Guru formally, and the Guru Presence in the Panj Piare are empowered to implant the Naam, Naam drirh, inside your consciousness where it will have an effect as vibrational mantar, power word.  It's not a ritual like tantric jogis use mantra to trap spirits or devtas and compel them to do magic tricks.  It's a spiritual science where you receive Guru's Shabad-Jyot vibration, His energy, like shaktipat.  Naam isn't a word you speak, it's an energy that has to be implanted within you by the Satguru.


ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਦੇਇ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇ ॥ 
kirapaa karae gur paaeeai har naamo dhaee dhrirraae ||
By His Grace, the Guru is found, and the Name of the Lord is implanted within.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ 
bin gur kinai n paaeiou birathhaa janam gavaae ||
Without the Guru, no one has obtained it; they waste away their lives in vain.
~SGGS Ji p. 33​



> _the 5 Beloved are not Guru, Waheguru, Satguru. Yes thee are many who are devout, pious, and Piaaraa of God. But they are human beings. Do all Panj Piaaraaee in every sangath on the planet speak with the divine insight that you give them in your comments above? My questions is a friendly question, and not intended to spark a debate, so much as a dialog about the spiritual wisdom of panj piaaraaee._


Aad0002 ji,  The Panj Piare are the actual sargun manifestation of the Shabad-Jyot of Guru.  If you do not believe this, then how do you believe the same sources which tell us Guruji's Shabad-Jyot now resides as Living Satguru within Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?  It's not written down in Shabad Guruji because Tenth Master's bani is not in Shabad Guru.  So we have to trust the bani and historical sources and Panthic tradition that Guruji put Himself, not the personality, but the God-consciousness into Guru Granth and Guru Panth.  We can't have one without the other.  One is Miri and one is Piri.  That is Guruji's sargun manifestation.  Guru Panth is the Panj Piare and also the entire community of amritdhari's who become members of the Khalsa Order of Guru Gobind Singh.  That is why they are wearing Guruji's own form in the panj kakkars.


khalsaa mero roop hai khaas, khalse main houn karo nivaas
"The Khalsa is my true form, I abide within the Khalsa" ~Sarbloh Granth


ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰ ਸੋਇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਇਆ । 
gur sikhu sikhu gur soi alakhu|akhaaiaa|
Being one with each other the Guru and the Sikh have made the Lord perceptible (in the form of Guru).

ਗੁਰ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਸਿਖਿ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ । 
gur deekhiaa|ai sikhi sikhu sadaaiaa|
Getting initiated by the Guru the disciple has become a Sikh.

ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖ ਇੱਕੋ ਹੋਇ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ । 
gur sikh iko hoi jo gur bhaaiaa|
It was the Lord’s desire that the Guru and the disciple would become one.
​


Bhai Nand Lal, poet laureate of Guru Gobind Singh's royal court, writes the following about the true qualities of the Khalsa in his composition called the "Tankah Nama": 

Khalsa so-i jo nindaa ti-aagay Khalsa so-i laray jo agay 
Khalsa so-i jo panchaa ka maaray Khalsa so-i karna ko saraay 
Khalsa is the one who does not slander others Khalsa is the one who fights in the front line 
Khalsa is the one who conquors the 5 evils (lust, greed, anger, excessive attachment, excessive pride) Khalsa is the one who fulfills all duties 
Khalsa so-i maan jo ti-aagay Khalsa so-i jo par istaree-aa ti-aagay Khalsa so-i par drisht ko ti-aagay 
Khalsa so-i naam rat laagay 
Khalsa is the one who renounces self-pride Khalsa is the one who remains faithful within marriage 
Khalsa is the one who abandons sexual desire for others than the spouse Khalsa is the one who is blessed with God's Name 
Khalsa so-i guru hit laavay Khalsa so-i saar mukh khaavay 
Khalsa so-i nirdhaan ko paalay Khalsa so-i dusht kao gaalai 
Khalsa is the one who loves Waheguru Khalsa is the one who fights bravely in battle 
Khalsa is the one who helps the needy Khalsa is the one who overpowers the enemy 
Khalsa so-i naam jap kaaray Khalsa so-i malaych paar charay 
Khalsa so-i naam si-o joray Khalsa so-i bandan ko toray 
Khalsa is the one who chants God's Name Khalsa is the one who rises above the evil ones 
Khalsa is the one who is in tune with God's Name Khalsa is the one who breaks false rituals 
Khalsa so-i jo charai tarang Khalsa so-i jo karay nit jang 
Khalsa so-i shaastar ko dhaaray Khalsa so-i dushat kao maaray. 
Khalsa is the one who becomes a crusader Khalsa is the one who fights the war daily against internal and external enemies 
Khalsa is the one who is always ready with weapons Khalsa is the one who destroys all evil.
Khalsa - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## Randip Singh (May 15, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> The last line of your comments are the bottom line for me, and should be for others as well. Without the True Guru, there is no Guru at all...
> But most respected Singhbj ji, the 5 Beloved are not Guru, Waheguru, Satguru. Yes thee are many who are devout, pious, and Piaaraa of God. But they are human beings. Do all Panj Piaaraaee in every sangath on the planet speak with the divine insight that you give them in your comments above? My questions is a friendly question, and not intended to spark a debate, so much as a dialog about the spiritual wisdom of panj piaaraaee.


 
You have actually stated something that is very relevant to the current situation in Sikhi.

Who were the original Panj Pyarey - they were basically people who were fearless and loyal to the Guru. They were chosen because they were not afraid to give their head to the Guru even when those around them thought the Tenth Master had gone mad and ran away. Unshakable faith, putting others before themselves and saw the welfare of others before them today.


How are Panj Pyarey Chosen today? Is it such a process? Are any such tests put in their way, or is it a measure of how old they are and how long their beard is?

These are serious questions we need to ask because in my mind the Panj Pyarey should be the cream of the crop, Intellectually the best, Physically the best, Their knowledge of Sikhi the best etc etc.


Any views?​


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## singhbj (May 15, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Firstly, one must have FAITH & BELIEF in Guru Gobind Singh ji's hukum and partake Khanda da Amrit.

Secondly, Guru Sahib ji granted the power & honour to Punj Piyaras for performing AMRIT SANCHAR ceremony. Hence forth, it is mandatory to follow Rehit Maryada (Code of Conduct) for a SINGH or SINGHNI. 

Amrit seeker must accept what is being said & interpreted in his or her Amrit Sanchar ceremony as the BHANA of WAHEGURU jeeo. Hence he or she would receive grace of WAHEGURU jeeo. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
जे को बचनु कमावै संतन का सो गुर परसादी तरीऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jė ko bachan kamāvai santan kā so gur parsādī tarī&shy;ai. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
One who practices the Teachings of the Saints, by Guru's Grace, is carried across. ||1||Pause|| 

Source: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=747

Thirdly, to disbelieve and doubt means disrespecting the will of ALMIGHTY !

ਸੋਈ ਹੋਆ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕਿਨ ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ॥ 
सोई होआ जो तिसु भाणा अवरु न किन ही कीता ॥ 
So&shy;ī ho&shy;ā jo tis bhānā avar na kin hī kītā. 
That which pleases His Will has come to pass; no one else can do anything.

Source: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=207

Lastly, a Gursikh always accepts WAHEGURU jeeo's Bhana(will) with utmost pleasure.

ਮੀਤੁ ਕਰੈ ਸੋਈ ਹਮ ਮਾਨਾ ॥ 
मीतु करै सोई हम माना ॥ 
Mīt karai so&shy;ī ham mānā. 
Whatever my Friend does, I accept. 


ਮੀਤ ਕੇ ਕਰਤਬ ਕੁਸਲ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
मीत के करतब कुसल समाना ॥१॥ 
Mīt kė kartab kusal samānā. ||1|| 
My Friend's actions are pleasing to me. ||1|| 

Source: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=187

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## singhbj (May 15, 2008)

randip singh said:


> You have actually stated something that is very relevant to the current situation in Sikhi.​
> Who were the original Panj Pyarey - they were basically people who were fearless and loyal to the Guru. They were chosen because they were not afraid to give their head to the Guru even when those around them thought the Tenth Master had gone mad and ran away. Unshakable faith, putting others before themselves and saw the welfare of others before them today.​
> 
> How are Panj Pyarey Chosen today? Is it such a process? Are any such tests put in their way, or is it a measure of how old they are and how long their beard is?​
> ...


 
Waheguru ji ka khalsa 
Waheguru ji ki fateh 

Punj Piyaras - 
Bhai Daya Singh Ji, 
Bhai Dharam Singh Ji, 
Bhai Himmat Singh Ji, 
Bhai Mohkam Singh Ji, 
Bhai Sahib Singh Ji, 
loved Guru Gobind Singh ji and cherished Hukum more than life itself. According to Sikh history, they never got married and followed Guru Sahib's Hukum throughout their lives. 

In present times, the Seva of Punj Piyaras is performed by ones chosen from a number of volunteer's, within their respective communities. 

Anyway this doesn't mean that chosen Punj shouldn't be given the same honour and powers as bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh ji to the Punj Piyaras. 

Waheguru ji ka khalsa 
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Randip Singh (May 15, 2008)

singhbj said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> Punj Piyaras -
> ...


 
...but what of the concept of Guru Granth and Guru Paanth?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 15, 2008)

> _...but what of the concept of Guru Granth and Guru Granth?_


I assume you mean to say Guru Granth and Guru Panth.

It comes down to whether or not you believe the Jyot of Guru is a Living Presence which can have physical manifestation.  If you don't believe that it isn't a quality of the individual personalities who become the 5, although rehat states they should be physically intact and of exemplary character and high avastha.  It isn't the personality of the 5 which manifests the Guru.  But the Guru manifests through the 5 Gursikhs which are attuned to the Reality of His vibration only for the time of Panj Piara seva.  So the Gursikh sevadar who acts as a Piara doesn't have to be a brahmgyani or rare exceptional person, or hero because it's not his personality.  
Through surrender and obedience to Guru's hukam, he becomes a living vehicle of a Living energy.  It's about transmission.  The personality of the individual 5 sevadars can't impart anything to anyone.  Only Guru is the Living energy.  Guru is the True Presence of the nirgun Parabrahm in sansaara.  Only the Parabrahm could give the Naam which is the boat to mukti.  Guru is the speaking voice of silent God which otherwise we can't even hear.  Guruji is merged in Divine Consciousness.  It isn't even personality of 10 historical dead bodies who had the role of Guru once on Earth.  It's the Living, actual Real Presence of Shabad-Jyot manifestation of Nirgun Nirankaar merged with Guru Nanak Dev Ji, not personality but humanity so the incomprehensible became comprehensible to us speaking human language, teaching concepts in human language but embodying the Shabad-Word which is outside the limits of Time and Space.  Guruji lived in human form and is now residing in Shri Guru Granth Sahib AND in all His Gursikhs who received transmission of the amrit Naam.  He manifests in all 11 forms of Guru and including the Guru Khalsa Panth and Panj Piare or we would have no Sikhi on the earth.  While Parabrahm resides in every living thing, you cannot have a manifestation of Guruji without the transmission, Gurdeekhya.  And it is the Gurdeekhya which gives us the boat to mukti, not because amritdharis become special personalities, but only insofar as they humble their own personalities to let Guruji's Jyot shine.  It's all about Him.  It's not about us.  

It's not about religion as a spiritual practice, but about the spirituality which cleanses the darkness of ego from the atma.  Can people be good and spiritual without amrit?  Yes.  Can people be amritdhari and be spiritual failures?  Yes.  Amrit is only a boat.  But you have to do your part to make the boat float.  If we did not need the Guru's transmission of amrit Naam, that's like saying the world doesn't need Guruji.  If we don't need Guru's path to liberation and His energy Presence of Shabad-Naam, we can just read about spirituality and not try to be transformed in our consciousness by jaaping Naam with every breath, and vibrating the Naam in every hair in a joora over the place of Dasm Duaar to obtain darshan of Guru.  If someone wants to cut hairs, then fine.  He can even be very spiritual.  But he won't be practicing the Gurmat Gursikhi of Satguru.  What will you do jaaping Naam without hairs to vibrate over dasm duaar?  Already you are losing something in the energetic spiritual practice found in Gurbani. And I won't be surprised if you tell me the person who shaves dhaari doesn't make regular practice to get up at amrit vela to keep Naam Simran and japna and say nitenam.  So a person can practice spirituality anyway they like.  But it has to be Sikhi to be Sikhi.

Do you think Guruji's amrit does not have the energetic power to transform farmers into Lions?  Do you think Sikh history could have happened any other way except for the POWER of Guruji's amrit to transform consciousness?  The original Five Beloved ones didn't receive Guruship because they were loyal and brave and exemplary.  They received Guruship because they received Amrit Naam, and so possessed the transmission of power.  And Guruji offers that to all of us.  The process is to transform all of us into the One.  That is Gursikhi.  It's not about anyone's long dhari or reputation.  At least not authentically.  It's about transmission of energy Presence (Shabad-Jyot) from a Living Master and is received through obedience to His Will allowing Him to implant the boat of salvation into our consciousness, amrit Naam.


~Bhul chak maaf


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## spnadmin (May 15, 2008)

Harjas ji

I really want to believe this.

*But the Guru manifests through the 5 Gursikhs which are attuned to the Reality of His vibration only for the time of Panj Piara seva. So the Gursikh sevadar who acts as a Piara doesn't have to be a brahmgyani or rare exceptional person, or hero because it's not his personality.

*Your words are the definitive basis of my earlier question. But I am aware that another question lingers for some people:  why do some Panj Piara appear to be motivated more by gurdwara politics and less by the Guru's vibration? I am lucky. I don't have this impression; but I know other people who speak frequently of this, their more doubtful perception.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 15, 2008)

> _why do some Panj Piara appear to be motivated more by gurdwara politics and less by the Guru's vibration?_



Because it is the era of the corruption of religion.  This is called the Dark Age because it's very rare for authentic spiritual light to shine.  But, for purposes of amrit, the bad qualities of the Panj should not affect you if you go to take amrit with a pure heart.  The process of transmission is still valid.  The Shabad is in the Gurbani.  And the Gurbani is still recited over the sweet water.  It isn't the sweet water that makes you a Khalsa.  It's the transmission of the Guru's Shabad-Jyot in the amrit bani.  And it is the sarbloh that contains the shakti which together make the sweet water a source of spiritual power.  It's nothing at all what the individuals who act as Panj sevadars bring.  That's why "amrit is amrit" no matter where you receive it.  I believe the Naam abhiyaas is necessary as per my rehat.  Different Jathas disagree on things.  But amrit is still amrit, even if you didn't receive Naam drirh.

It's important, and sangat still tries to find the best candidates for the seva.  But what is important is not the people.  What is important is they are being used as a vehicle to bring Guru to the people.  That's why all you need for amrit is a sincere heart and determination to dedicate yourself.  You will get out of it what you bring.  Not what the other person brings.  We are all living in sansaara.  All of us are imperfect paapis.  We are filled with karam, kam, krodh, lob, mh, ahaankar.  We are caught by Maya and suffer ignorance of duality.  How rare it is to find Panj Piara who are Living saints.

Don't worry about that.  You have a Living Guru.  

When you take amrit, you receive it from Him, not those other personalities.  But because it is my sincere belief that Naam drirh is crucial to receive the authentic Naam Gurmantara, I recommend a person receive amrit from Gurmat Gursikh Panj Piare who are able to implant that.  But it is only a recomendation.  And if you did not, ask at another amrit sinchaar who may be able to implant that to you.  But I don't discriminate that the amrit received in any less amrit.

amrit is amrit.


~Bhul chak maaf


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## spnadmin (May 15, 2008)

Excellent "pep" talk Harjas ji, and I do not mean that in a joking around way. This is very re-assuring talk.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 15, 2008)

Not to be judgmental, but where you go receive amrit is important.  But this is a matter of your discernment, bibek budhi.  You wouldn't go shop for a car anywhere, but you'd go to a reputable dealer.  It's true I've heard some people experiences at amrit sinchaar are energetically disappointing.  I was very blessed.  The Panj Piare sevadars put so much piaare into it and energy, it lasted hours, and I remember the sweat pouting down the faces as they stirred the metal and rust off sarbloh khanda in the sarbloh batta and said paath and did Naam abhiyaas.  The energy was very high.  We all drank rust water the color of blood.  It was Pure energy.  Pure metal, and pure Shabad.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I was scared through the whole process and couldn't wait for it to finish.  But the moment I did matatekk to Guruji and the Panj put their hands on me I was doing Naam Abhiyaas fast and strong with an energy that was not my own.  And the energy didn't calm down for about 2 hours.  All of us that were new Naam abhiyaasis were that way.  It was the energy in the room that gave us a real spiritual experience.  That's why I'm convinced of the reality of these things.  Because I had the experience.  Perhaps another person will perceive things differently.  All I can do is share the experience and understanding I have.  I share these things because my close friend's son cut his hair and broke his rehat.  He did not receive Naam drirh.  When I talked to him about it he told me the day of amrit sinchaar was the same to him as any other day.  No energy.  No reality.  No particular importance.  

When you go to receive amrit, don't just go to the local Gurdwara.  Look for a real satsangat where some people are true and sincere in their practice.  And you will have a real experience, either during amrit sinchaar, or unfolding in your life over time, because I'm convinced of the reality of Sikhi.  Even if you do not have an experience when you get amrit chakk, the Gurshabad is still in the amrit.  Sometimes we just don't have Guru's kirpa to sense the energy that is really there.  Like our house has electricity running through it, but unless we put our finger in a light socket, we won't notice.  But having surrendered yourself to receive amrit, and daily surrendering yourself to practice Gursikhi despite what you may or may not experience has all the power to change you into a Gursikh. 

Btw, Naam abhiyaas is like putting your finger in a light socket.  

~Bhul chak maaf


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## spnadmin (May 15, 2008)

Harjas ji

You are always very generous when you describe these experiences and insights from your own life with others.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Not to be judgmental, but where you go receive amrit is important.
> *
> This is a very important observation -- some places exude spirituality. That comes from the sangat, and not from the building. *
> 
> ...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 15, 2008)

Compare the pranayam practices of Sufi zikr (remembrance) and Naam simran abhiyaas and you will see how bhagkti Sufi sants had influence on Naam Japna.  It's like the main major practice, the boat of mukti.  Vaheguru Gurmantara is the Naam.

Bhai Ravinder Singh - Derby Smaagam July2006

abdullahbaba


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## Archived_member2 (May 15, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Thanks for the link showing video where they are singing the beloved Guru's Vaak.
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਿਆਸ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
अंतरि पिआस हरि नाम की गुरु तुसि मिलावै सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Anṯar pi*ās har nām kī gur ṯus milāvai so*ė. ||1|| rahā*o. SGGS Ang 40

May I ask why singing ' Waheguru' stills thirst of the inner? The true Guru's words say that the thirst is of Hari Naam though.

Quote "Vaheguru Gurmantara is the Naam."
This message is not from the Sikh Gurus. Please explain. From whom Sikhs got this?
Are Sikhs following others than their true Gurus?


Balbir Singh


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## pk70 (May 15, 2008)

Quote “Because of the nature of material reality, the Hindu devtas are high spiritual beings, reflections of the One God Himself, but they are trapped in Maya. If they were not, existance would not exist. “
* Respectfully Bhainji , I take the liberty to question some of your statements, please forgive my disagreement with your views again. If any one gets trapped in Maya, how he/she can be honored as high spiritual being?*
*
”*It gets sort of silly after awhile. If karam doesn't mean karam, then what does it mean? “
*Karma means Karma but it is the approach towards it that differs not the literal meaning. Hindu thought” If one is low, he/she is because it is his/her destiny, karma,it can never be changed”,  Guru says actually karma can also changes if HE Wills. So, Guru makes them warrior and rulers (as HE wills) See the different, same word, different application.*

  “If dasm duar doesn't mean dasm duar then what does it mean?”
*Dasmduar is the same but it is the difference between writing about it and experiencing it.  Simply writing about it will not lead to experience unless working for it is not adopted.*
  “ Hinduism doesn't own these concepts any more than Sikhism has a monopoly on God.”
*They literally own them Bhain ji, because they were first to explain about these words in different concepts as they liked, you cannot have both ways. There is no two ways, either accept them or come up with another meaning to prove why they should not be accepted as Guru, and support it by showing their limitations compared to true Guru, and Guru ji simply did that.*

  “Do you think Guruji's amrit does not have the energetic power to transform farmers into Lions? Do you think Sikh history could have happened any other way except for the POWER of Guruji's amrit to transform consciousness?”
*Well Bhain ji, History also says” Emperor Shah Jahan’s military attacked Sixth Nanak 13 times, every time, attacking General was killed and attackers had to run away back"; at that time, no AMRIT Ceremony was there. All Sikhs who fought by side of  Sixth Nanak were as bravely and exceptionally as Sikhs who fought by side of Tenth Nanak. What did Guru Hargobind do? He didn’t start  Khande dee Pahul  but his Sikhs became real warrior even though they were coming from low classes( considered )?*

  “They received Guruship because they received Amrit Naam, and so possessed the transmission of power. And Guruji offers that to all of us”.
*If that is accepted, now Sikhs have 12 Gurus, again violation of Tenth Nanak’s Hukam*
*’. If they pass on Guru’s gift to others, how they can become Guru, they are just like carriers, they carry and deliver.*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 15, 2008)

> ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਿਆਸ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> अंतरि पिआस हरि नाम की गुरु तुसि मिलावै सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> Anṯar pi*ās har nām kī gur ṯus milāvai so*ė. ||1|| rahā*o. SGGS Ang 40
> 
> ...


The tuk you shared only states Har Naam or Lord's Name.  It does not state Gurmantara is Har and isn't Vaheguru.  I base my understanding of Vaheguru as Gurmantar first on instructions of the Panj Piare when I was amrit chakk.  Secondly on the Vaaran of Bhair Gurdas Ji.  Third on the tradition and history of the Khalsa Panth.  Fourth on the fateh I was given when I was amrit chakk which says:
*
Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

*ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਚੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । 
satiguru purakh daiaalu hoi vaahiguroo sachu mantr sunaaiaa|
Becoming kind, the Guru recites true mantra Vaheguru for him.
~Vaar *11* Pauri *3 * of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas 


ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

 Line  1   ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

 Line  2   ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

 Line  3 ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ । 
kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

 Line  4 ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

 Line  5   ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

 Line  6   ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥ 
jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.
~Vaar *1* Pauri *49 *of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas 

​So for my understanding it is too much evidence to ignore that Gurmantara for Khalsa Sikh is Vaheguru. ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਜਿ ਵਾਟ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ॥ 
this ko vaahu vaahu j vaatt dhikhaavai ||
Waaho! Waaho! - Hail, hail, to the one who shows us the Way.

ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਜਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ॥ 
this ko vaahu vaahu j sabadh sunaavai ||
Waaho! Waaho! - Hail, hail, to the one who teaches the Word of the Shabad.

ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਜਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥੬॥ 
this ko vaahu vaahu j mael milaavai ||6||
Waaho! Waaho! - Hail, hail, to the one who unites me in the Lord's Union. ||6||

 ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਇਹੁ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu this ko jis kaa eihu jeeo ||
Waaho! Waaho! - Hail, hail, to the one who is the Keeper of this soul.

 ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮਥਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਉ ॥ 
gur sabadhee mathh anmrith peeo ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, contemplate this Ambrosial Nectar.

ਨਾਮ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣੈ ਦੀਉ ॥੭॥ 
naam vaddaaee thudhh bhaanai dheeo ||7||
The Glorious Greatness of the Naam is bestowed according to the Pleasure of Your Will. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 226


ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ਸੁਤਹ ਸਿਧ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਸਾਹਨ ਕੈ ਸਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
akathh kathhaa kathhee n jaae theen lok rehiaa samaae sutheh sidhh roop dhhariou saahan kai saahi jeeo ||
No one can speak Your Unspoken Speech. You are pervading the three worlds. You assume the form of spiritual perfection, O King of kings.

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥ 
sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 1403


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਅਨੂਪ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ । 
nirankaaru aakaaru kari joti saroopu anoop dikhaaiaa|
The formless Lord has been beholden in the form of the light (in Guru Nanak and other Gurus).
 Line  1   ਵੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਅਗੋਚਰਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । 
vayd katayb agocharaa vaahiguroo gur sabadu sunaaiaa|
The Gurus recited Word-Guru as Vahiguru who is beyond the Vedas and Katebas (the semtic scriptures).
 Line  2   ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਮਜਹਬਾ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਆਇਆ । 
chaari varan chaari majahabaa charan kaval saranaagati aaiaa|
Therefore all the four varnas and all four semitic religions have sought the shelter of the lotus feet of the Guru.
 Line  3   ਪਾਰਸਿ ਪਰਸਿ ਅਪਰਸ ਜਗਿ ਅਸਟ ਧਾਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ । 
paarasi parasi aparas jagi asat dhaatu iku dhaatu karaaiaa|
When the Gurus in the form of Philosopher’s stone touched them, that alloy of eight metal changed into one metal (gold in the form of Sikhism).
~Vaar *12* Pauri *17 *of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas

​ਸਬਦ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਤਿਸੰਗਿ ਵਿਲੋਈ । 
sabad surati kari keeratanu satisangi viloee|
Making his consciousness attentive to Word through recitation of Naam, he merges in the holy congregation.
Line  4   ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ । 
vaahiguroo guramantr hai japi haumai khoee|
His Guru-manta is Vahiguru, whose recitation erases egotism.
~Vaar *13* Pauri *2 * of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas 


​


> Bhai Gurdas in his Varan refers to it variously as japu mantra (invocation for repetition), guru sabadu (the  Guru’s Word), sachu mantra (true mantra) and gurmantra. It is also called nam  (the Name), and is sometimes compounded as “Satinam-Vahiguru” to be chanted  aloud in congregations. Nam japna (repeated utterance of God’s Name, i.e.  Vahiguru) is one of the three cardinal moral principles of Sikhism, the other  two being kirat karni or honest labour and vand chhakna or sharing one’s  victuals with the needy. Since the manifestation of the Khalsa by Guru Gobind  Singh in 1699, Vahiguru has been part of the Sikh salutation: "Vahiguru ji ka  Khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki Fateh" ("Hail the Khalsa who belongs to the Lord God!  Hail the Lord God to whom belongs the victory! !" ). It has since also been the  gurmantra  imparted formally at initiation to the novitiate by the leader of the Panj Piare  administering the rites.
> Waheguru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



gurisK rihq sunhu ry mIq ] 
pRBwqy auT  kr ihq cIq ] 
vwihgurU gurmMqR su jwp ] 
kr iesnwn pVoH jp jwp  ]

Gursikh rahet sunhu ray mee-t.  
Parbhatay uth kar hi-t cheet. 
Waheguru mantaar so jaap. 
Kar ishnaan  parh-hay jap jaap. 
~Rehitnama Bhai Nand Lal​vwihgurU inq bcn aucwry ] vwihgurU ko ihrdY  DwrY ]
v*aa*h*i*g*u*r*oo* n*i*th bachan  o*u*ch*aa*r*ae* || v*aa*h*i*g*u*r*oo* k*o* h*i*radh*ai* dhh*aa*r*ai*
He  repeats the True Name of 'Vaheguru' daily. He enshrines Vaheguru in his  heart.
~ Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh​


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## singhbj (May 16, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Before departing to Sach Khand, Guru Gobind Singh ji declared Guru Granth Sahib jeeo, the everlasting Guru of the Sikhs. Guru Sahib ji said "Pooja Akal di, Parcha Shabad da, Deedaar Khalse da".  

Worship only ONE timeless God, 
Believe, understand and follow the words of SatGuru, 
Get pleasure by the sight Khalsa.

Punj Piyaras or Singhs obey Guru Gobind Singh ji's Hukum by doing Seva of Amrit Sanchaar. They get power, honour and respect by the blessings of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

"Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Dioon Mein Sara"

This means as long as the Khalsa follows true path, teachings of Gur Shabad including Rehat, Guru Gobind Singh Ji will bestow all powers to the Khalsa.

So, Punj Piyaras or Singhs don't need anything from Sikh Sangat. They are Guru Sahib ji's beloved ones, therefore must be given due respect.

Lastly, Punj Piyaras or Singhs perform Amrit Sanchaar Seva but supreme authority is dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jeeo.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ 
I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar, given by the True Guru. 

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਦੂਆ ਤੀਆ ॥ 
I do not know any other second or third. 

ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਸੁ ਅਪਰ ਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਪਰਖਿ ਖਜਾਨੈ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੨॥ 
He is the One, Unique, Infinite and Endless Lord; He evaluates all beings and places some in His treasury. ||12|| 

Source: Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## pk70 (May 16, 2008)

Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Dioon Mein Sara"

This means as long as the Khalsa follows true path, teachings of Gur Shabad including Rehat, Guru Gobind Singh Ji will bestow all powers to the Khalsa.nigur
  singh bj ji
* To have Guru ji’s blessings on Khalsa, one who becomes Khalsa, must understand “what is true path as per Guru Granth Sahib?” First comes Guru Granth Sahib teachings, by living these teachings, mind becomes  becomes naira( unique) in deeds not only in out side appearance. That is what Guru ji asking for, to bestow his blessings *

  So, Punj Piyaras or Singhs don't need anything from Sikh Sangat. They are Guru Sahib ji's beloved ones, therefore must be given due respect.
* That is very arrogant statement. Why do you think that Panj pyaras are different from Sikh Sangat? Panj Pyaras must represent Sikh Sangat. First panj Pyaras became exemplary leaders and Sikh Sangat followed them. Aren’t they chosen from Sikh Sangat?. Panj pyaras earn respect by surrendering unconditionally to Guru,  that is why in this context, the norms must be higher, above politics to keep Guru ji’s concept practical.

*Lastly, Punj Piyaras or Singhs perform Amrit Sanchaar Seva but supreme authority is dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jeeo.
*Thanks, they just do the assigned duty, obviously they get due respect, don’t they?*
*Now let’s see what the  Gurbani  quoted says actually
*
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ 
I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar, given by the True Guru. 
( This is about Nam, Singhbj ji it is not about amrit ceremony )

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਦੂਆ ਤੀਆ ॥ 
I do not know any other second or third. 
(Means except God, I do not recognize any other, this  very meaning becomes very clear in the following Vaak, when will Sikhs start learning true message instead of making their own?)

ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਸੁ ਅਪਰ ਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਪਰਖਿ ਖਜਾਨੈ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੨॥ 
He is the One, Unique, Infinite and Endless Lord; He evaluates all beings and places some in His treasury. ||12||
  (Is meaning clear now my respected Gursikh ji? Its is not what you wrote above, it  is sad we deliberately change Guru Message, my humble request," kindly quote Gurbani in right context")


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## singhbj (May 18, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

It is Guru Gobind Singh ji's hukam with the blessings of Guru Granth Sahib jeeo Punj Piyaaras can give Khande di pahul (Amrit). Only Punj Pyaaras can give naam to Abhilakhis (candidates for partaking Amrit) none other is empowered or have the right to do so. 

Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written about Sant Hira Singh jee Daudpuri, who started giving naam to others. Sant Hira Singh jee was a very accomplished gursikh and used to do naam abhyaas day and night. He was one of the main companions of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee. While doing Naam abhyaas, he used to start floating in the air. 

In the village he lived, many became tyaar-bar-tyaar Khalsa, as a result of his sangat. His personal kamaayee increased manifolds. Once a bibi saw Sant jee coming and accosted him, "Vey Hira Siyaan, suniya hai tu jiss dey sirr uppar hath rakh deven, uss noo hosh nahi rehindi. Vey mere sirr uppar vee hath rakh dey" (O Hira Singh, I have heard that on whom you touch on head, he loses consciousness. Place your hand on my head too". 

Sant Hira Singh laughingly placed his hand on that old lady's head and she really lost consciousness. Swaas swaas naam started vibrating in her body, with great alacrity. She remained in these colours for more than 24 hours. 

This way, playing miracles forbidden by Guru Sahib, Sant Hira Singh jee lost all his kamaayee and one day, he discovered to his horror, that he could not retrieve the darshan of Jyot of Vaheguru. He tried and tried but all in vain. He would go to the side of wells at midnight and do Naam abhyaas, standing on one leg, for hours and hours but all in vain. He could not retrieve his old spiritual state. His inside became dark like common people. No longer he could view the charan-kamal of Vaheguru. No longer he could get into Dasam Duaar. No longer the divine lotus in his navel would blossom. He did not know what to do.

In such distressed state, he arrived back at Narangwal, the village of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee. Bhai Sahib jee and other accomplished Singhs already knew why he had come. The Singhs at that time had all 5 Akali Shaktis (spiritual powers) and knew everything in and out. They knew the purpose of arrival of Sant Hira Singh jee but kept ignoring him. They did not heed to his requests and supplications. 

Sant Hira Singh's agony knew no bounds. His bairaag was uncontainable. He would stay seated where the shoes of sangat were kept and his eyes kept shedding divine tears.

After many days or weeks, the Singhs realised that the time for embracing Sant Hira Singh jee had arrived. They organised an amrit sinchaar and subpeonoed Sant Hira Singh jee. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written what happened inside, very beautifully. Basically, the Punj Pyaaray made him realise that he had lost all his spiritual state because he had started giving naam and technique all alone. They said that this was the sole right of the Punj Pyaaray and no one else had any right to give naam. 

Sant Hira Singh jee repented his mistake and within moments, his spiritual state came back. He was back in his old spiritual state in no time. 

Source: Abstract taken from writings of Bhai Kulbir Singh ji at Naam Vairaag

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## pk70 (May 18, 2008)

After many days or weeks, the Singhs realised that the time for embracing Sant Hira Singh jee had arrived. They organised an amrit sinchaar and subpeonoed Sant Hira Singh jee. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written what happened inside, very beautifully. Basically, the Punj Pyaaray made him realise that he had lost all his spiritual state because he had started giving naam and technique all alone. They said that this was the sole right of the Punj Pyaaray and no one else had any right to give naam. 

Sant Hira Singh jee repented his mistake and within moments, his spiritual state came back. He was back in his old spiritual state in no time.

*Looks like competition is on ! Mistake is realized, power came back like electricity. What a imaginative brain ! I would never like to waste my time on such stories !*


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## Archived_member2 (May 25, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

I have read your post #18 on the topic Nigura dated 16-05-2008.
It is strange to read your long list of reasons for japping 'Waheguru' as Gurmantar. Sorry to say that I missed the name of the true Guru in this list.

Quote "The tuk you shared only states Har Naam or Lord's Name. It does not state Gurmantara is Har and isn't Vaheguru."
Did Gurdev ever say that Vaheguru is Gurmantar? 
I have never heard Gurdev saying so.

Please listen. Gurdev is explaining precisely.

hmry hir jgjIvnw hir jipE hir gur mMq ]
hmry hir jgjIvnw hir jipAo hir gur mNq ]
hamray hari jagjeevanaa hari japi-o hari gur mant. SGGS 1315-6

Quote "I base my understanding of Vaheguru as Gurmantar first on instructions of the Panj Piare when I was amrit chakk. Secondly on the Vaaran of Bhair Gurdas Ji. Third on the tradition and history of the Khalsa Panth. Fourth on the fateh I was given when I was amrit chakk . . ."
This is why true Guroo's Sikhs are rare. Rehit Naamee Sikhs are very much.

**************

Quote from Singhbj Jee "Before departing to Sach Khand, Guru Gobind Singh ji declared Guru Granth Sahib jeeo, the everlasting Guru of the Sikhs. Guru Sahib ji said 'Pooja Akal di, Parcha Shabad da, Deedaar Khalse da'."
Guru Gobind Singh Jee transferred the wisdom of the Sabad Guru for many years. He wrote also a lot so that Sikhs should not go astray. May I ask why Sikhs have started believing hearsay?


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (May 25, 2008)

Singhbj ji,

I shall be thankful if you could very kindly tell the year/approximate only as to when the above incident might have taken place. We do not hear of spiritual achievements of this kind in recent days.

regards


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 29, 2008)

> Quote "The tuk you shared only states Har Naam or Lord's Name. It does not state Gurmantara is Har and isn't Vaheguru."
> 
> Did Gurdev ever say that Vaheguru is Gurmantar?
> I have never heard Gurdev saying so.
> ...


Just as the tradition states Dasam Pita Ji gave gurgaddi to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji AND to Khalsa Panth via roop of Guru Panj Piare, so I accept that Guru Panj Piare are sargun Saroop of Guruji, and not some individual opinion which goes contrary to accepted Panthic authority.

You have created a new slur against the legitimacy of the Khalsa Panth with rehitnamay Sikhs.  But there is in truth only one Sikh and that is the one in submission to Guruji's own hukam and not deluded with opinions of one's own interpretive self-importance.  Are you also suggesting that Khande Ki Pahul, and the rehitnamay of a Khalsa are fabrications and not distilled from the remembered instructions of Dasam Pita Ji and faithfully retained in rehitnamay?  Since Dasam Pitaji was murdered and did not even record the events of Baisaikhi in His own hand, how do you even know that Gurgaddhi belongs to Shri Guru Granth?  If you don't accept the Khalsa tradition and supportive sources, you have nothing but personal presumption.



> A close associate of Guru Gobind Singh and author of _Rehit-nama_, Prahlad Singh, recorded the Guru's commandment saying "With the order of the Eternal Lord has been established [Sikh] Panth: all the Sikhs hereby are commanded to obey the Granth as their Guru".(_Rehat-nama, Bhai Prahlad Singh_)[15] Similarly Chaupa Singh, another associate of Guru Gobind Singh, has mentioned this commandment in his _Rehat-nama_.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waheguru


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## Archived_member2 (May 29, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quote "Just as the tradition states . . ."
True Sikhism is not following a tradition and imitating it.
The true Sikh does not imitate truth either.

Quote "Just as the tradition states Dasam Pita Ji gave gurgaddi to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji AND to Khalsa Panth via roop of Guru Panj Piare . . ."
May I ask what is Dasam Pita saying about this? 
Why some Sikhs have started following hearsay?

Quote "so I accept that Guru Panj Piare are sargun Saroop of Guruji, and not some individual opinion which goes contrary to accepted Panthic authority."
Maya is the Sargun Saroop of the Supreme Lord. Is this the reason why many are entangled with Maya?
A Jeev mostly feels safe in a crowd. Experiencing the Way one does not walk with any Panth. What is to say about Panthic authority?
Please Listen, Gurdev is singing.
mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ]
mñnY mgu n clY pNQu ]
mannai mag na chalai panth. Japuji SGGS Ang 3
Experiencing the way he does not walk a panth.

Quote "You have created a new slur against the legitimacy of the Khalsa Panth with rehitnamay Sikhs."
The so-called Sikhs following Rehitnaamaas are Rehitnaamee Sikhs. That is why they are without the True Naam.
Rehit means without.
Also, the true Khalsa is not a bundle of rituals.
Khalsa is the purest consciousness attained through the true Naam Simran.

Quote "But there is in truth only one Sikh and that is the one in submission to Guruji's own hukam and not deluded with opinions of one's own interpretive self-importance."
Strange. The reverend Gurus never talk about their own Hukam. They talk and follow always Lord's Hukam.
Who are the teachers of today's Sikhs?

Quote "Are you also suggesting that Khande Ki Pahul, and the rehitnamay of a Khalsa are fabrications . . ."
Please come to know true Naam Simran and find it yourself.

Quote "Since Dasam Pitaji was murdered and did not even record the events of Baisaikhi in His own hand, how do you even know that Gurgaddhi belongs to Shri Guru Granth?"
I cannot imagine that Gurdev was waiting to write these incidents one day and demised suddenly.

Quote "If you don't accept the Khalsa tradition and supportive sources, you have nothing but personal presumption."
It is the great bliss to realize that Gurdev did not accept the Brahmin tradition and their supportive sources. Gurdev's personal experiences of Truth caused Them merging in HIM.

**************

Wikipedia information may be the guide to move around Truth.
Enlightened persons do not need wikipedia to realize Truth. 
Truth lies in the Center within.

**************

Nigura is without the Guru. Only a nigura plays a drama to expose. 


Balbir Singh


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 29, 2008)

> A close associate of Guru Gobind Singh and author of _Rehit-nama_, Prahlad Singh, recorded the Guru's commandment saying "With the order of the Eternal Lord has been established [Sikh] Panth: all the Sikhs hereby are commanded to obey the Granth as their Guru".(_Rehat-nama, Bhai Prahlad Singh_)[15] Similarly Chaupa Singh, another associate of Guru Gobind Singh, has mentioned this commandment in his _Rehat-nama_.
> Guru Granth Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> _ Why some Sikhs have started following hearsay?_





> Quote "But there is in truth only one Sikh and that is the one in submission to Guruji's own hukam and not deluded with opinions of one's own interpretive self-importance."
> _ Strange. The reverend Gurus never talk about their own Hukam. They talk and follow always Lord's Hukam.
> Who are the teachers of today's Sikhs?
> _
> ...





> Quote "Since Dasam Pitaji was murdered and did not even record the events of Baisaikhi in His own hand, how do you even know that Gurgaddhi belongs to Shri Guru Granth?"
> _ I cannot imagine that Gurdev was waiting to write these incidents one day and demised suddenly._
> 
> Quote "If you don't accept the Khalsa tradition and supportive sources, you have nothing but personal presumption."
> _ It is the great bliss to realize that Gurdev did not accept the Brahmin tradition and their supportive sources. Gurdev's personal experiences of Truth caused Them merging in HIM._





> _Wikipedia information may be the guide to move around Truth.
> Enlightened persons do not need wikipedia to realize Truth.
> Truth lies in the Center within._


Your arrogance will be your own undoing.  If you are not a Sikh and do not recognize as legitimate Sikh institutions such as Khalsa Panth, Rehitnamay, the Sikh Takhts, Akal Takht, Panj Piare, then how can you be a Sikh?  Aren't you studying from teachings of Tantric Master Osho?  Is this where you get the notion that all Sikhs are inferior spiritually to your presumptions of non-conformity to legitimate and recognized Sikh teaching?  If you don't recognize and follow hukam of Guru than you are the one who is nigura.


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## Archived_member2 (May 29, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quote "Your arrogance will be your own undoing."
Please say something with love and win me easily.

Quote "If you are not a Sikh and do not recognize as legitimate Sikh institutions such as Khalsa Panth, Rehitnamay, the Sikh Takhts, Akal Takht, Panj Piare, then how can you be a Sikh?"
I have respect for Harjas Jee and her referred institutions. I have also talked to them all. No one is ready to call them the Sikh's Guru. They were also hesitating to accept this title.
Also, I have recognized my true One Sabad Guru. I do not know why some are still suggesting to follow so many institutions. 

Please listen. My true Guru is singing.
miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy iek gur kI isK suxI ]
miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy ek gur kI isK suxI ]
mati vichi ratan javaahar maanik jay ik gur kee sikh sunee. SGGS Ang 2
In understanding are gems, jewels and rubies if ONE Gur's teaching is heard.

Gurdev is mentioning One Gur not of many institutions. Please let me be happy with my true Guru. Do not enforce so many institutions on others.

With God's blessings I listened once my reverend Guru's suggestion.  I feel no more need to read it repeatedly. 
Once HE told me Truth singing this holy Vaak.
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]
ekw bwxI eku gu{ eko sbdu vIcwir ]
ikaa banee iku guru iko sabadu veechaari. SGGS Ang 646
One Speech, one Guru, one Sabad, contemplate.

Quote "Aren't you studying from teachings of Tantric Master Osho?"
I came to know his dames long back. They are still insisting me to learn Tantra.

Quote "Is this where you get the notion that all Sikhs are inferior spiritually to your presumptions of non-conformity to legitimate and recognized Sikh teaching?"
This is not true. Perhaps one needs to meet a true Sikh in life. The true Sikh does not analyze in terms of inferiority or superiority. 

Quote "If you don't recognize and follow hukam of Guru than you are the one who is nigura."
Let me follow God's Hukam through the true Guru. Please do not ask me to follow so many other institutions. 
One may insist. I may still not give someone the title niguree.


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (May 30, 2008)

The only sane way to deal with Balbir Singh is with calmness. There is no other way.
Because if one looses his head talking too harshly (yet to happen) then Moderators come into the picture. :crazy:


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 31, 2008)

> Because if one looses his head talking too harshly


Indeed his comments against rehitnamee Sikhs as being without Naam, against authority of Shri Akal Takht Sahib Ji, against Khalsa rehitnamas and accepted teachings of Khalsa Panth

these are NOT talking to harshly against Sikh religion?  And it is only responses which he has deliberately provoked with invalidation of basis of Sikh belief which would be construed as harshness?  That seems rather biased in favor of the person slandering Sikhs who kept rehit and trust the legitimacy of Sikh institutions.  So you allow attacks against, but moderate responses to?


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## singhbj (May 31, 2008)

*"Truth is high, higher still is truthful living."*

[/FONT]Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਸਚਹੁ ਓਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥੫॥ 
सचहु ओरै सभु को उपरि सचु आचारु ॥५॥ 
Sachahu orai sabh ko upar sach aachar. ||5|| 
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5|| 

Source: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... 0&Param=62

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Astroboy (May 31, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Indeed his comments against rehitnamee Sikhs as being without Naam, against authority of Shri Akal Takht Sahib Ji, against Khalsa rehitnamas and accepted teachings of Khalsa Panth
> 
> these are NOT talking to harshly against Sikh religion? And it is only responses which he has deliberately provoked with invalidation of basis of Sikh belief which would be construed as harshness? That seems rather biased in favor of the person slandering Sikhs who kept rehit and trust the legitimacy of Sikh institutions. So you allow attacks against, but moderate responses to?


 
Balbir Singh has received a number of infractions from moderators for provoking anger and misunderstanding while debating with members. I will not hesitate to resort to the same if the need arises. 

Harjas Ji, you may highlight the points which Balbir Singh evades answering or gives wrong answers to. But if Balbir Singh can support his answers with relevant bani quotes, then he is not flaming sentiments. In the past, Pk70 has brought up arguments which reveal Balbir Singh's answers as evasive and he explains how. 

From your posts and Balbir's post, there are a number of questionable objections which should have been raised but I am surprised no one paid any attention to them. I hope you will go thru them again and point them out.

It's a learning process and good reminders to all : not to fall for such unreasonable logic.


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## Archived_member2 (May 31, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee "Indeed his comments against rehitnamee Sikhs as being without Naam, . . ."
Please learn Gur of Naam and become Gursikh. Do not waste life living without (rehit) as a rehit-naamee.
The so-called Rehitnaamays suggest something else than that the true Gurus suggest.

" . . . these are NOT talking to harshly against Sikh religion?"
The true Sikh's Religion is not his mind.

Quote "And it is only responses which he has deliberately provoked with invalidation of basis of Sikh belief . . ."
Nothing exists like Sikh belief.
True Sikhism is living Truth.

Quote "That seems rather biased in favor of the person slandering Sikhs who kept rehit and trust the legitimacy of Sikh institutions."
Sansaara lives in doubts (in sansai) so behave its institutions and their codes.
The true Sikh lives Truth with the guiding Sabad merging in God.
All true Sikhs are my beloved brothers. We have the same Guru, the true Sabad.

**************

Singhbj Jee,
I say thanks for referring the beautiful photo and the wonderful Vaak from Gurdev.
schu ErY sBu ko aupir scu Awcwru ]5]
schu AorY sBu ko apir scu Awcw{ ]5]
sachahu orai sabhu ko upari sachu aachaaru. ||5|| SGGS Ang 62

The translation provided may not be correct.
According to your referred translation it explains that 'Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living'.

Please ponder. How is this Vaak from the true Guru true if the above translation is correct?
aUcy aupir aUcw nwau ]
åcy apir åcw nwa ]
oochay upari oochaa naao. SGGS Ang 5
Highest of the High, above all is His Name.

**************

Quote from Namjap Jee "Balbir Singh has received a number of infractions from moderators for provoking anger and misunderstanding while debating with members. I will not hesitate to resort to the same if the need arises."
Perhaps all have heard the story of the shoe maker. His biggest dream was to become king for a day so that he could issue the leather coins.
Some moderators had the similar chance.
Some other forums just do not publish my posts. They are worried losing their business and customers.
They may not be knowing that also their children are visiting the Sikh Philosophy dot net forum to listen and understand the flute of Bansurivala, the divine tunes of the true Gurus.

Quote "In the past, Pk70 has brought up arguments which reveal Balbir Singh's answers as evasive and explains how."
Pk70 Jee has still not responded to my request. Please provide the authentic proof that confirms "Guru Angad Dev Jee never wrote any Pauree".

Quote "From your posts and Balbir's post, there are a number of questionable objections which should have been raised but I am surprised no one paid any attention to them. I hope you will go thru them again and point them out."
May I also ask further?
Please invite the so-called knowledgeable elite on this forum for open debates. They should not participate with their pseudo names if possible. 

Quote "It's a learning process and good reminders to all : not to fall for such unreasonable logic."
I support this. Please beware of Baabaas and Beebees without true Naam (rehit-naamees).


Balbir Singh


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 31, 2008)

> _The so-called Rehitnaamays suggest something else than that the true Gurus suggest._





> _ Please beware of Baabaas (fathers, spiritual elders) and Beebees (sisters) without true Naam (rehit-naamees)._


I have no interest in a debate which sole context is personal insult.  I don't care how much Gurbani someone is quoting.  I enjoy discussing points of religious understanding WITHOUT resorting to personal insults or having the same thrown at me.  But it seems very hard to find such constructive discussions, and these are among the lowest common denominator intended to provoke resentment and rejection and not understanding.  My opinion of course.

Discussions about points of disagreement are a learning process.  Arguments and put downs are just an insult.  And to be insulting others while distorting Gurbani to do it would seem more likely to lead to negative spiritual growth than positive.

I have certainly heard of a lot of fake babas, but rarely have I heard that a Sikh bibi was fake because she follows rehitnama.  This whole discussion is ridiculous.


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## spnadmin (May 31, 2008)

*Mod's note*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> 
> ...


 
Balbirji,

If you really believe the above, then we must not be that worthless a lot of moderators after all. 

Anyway I'm enjoying this debate very much.

aad0002 (Not a bird, and not a BeeBee, that is for sure)


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## Archived_member2 (Jun 1, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quoting my statement you wrote "Please beware of Baabaas (fathers, spiritual elders) and Beebees (sisters) without true Naam (rehit-naamees)."
Why was the need to add your words in brackets giving it the flare of your mind?
In which institutions one learns such behavior?

Quote "I have no interest in a debate which sole context is personal insult."
I do not insult a person even if he does not satisfy my curiosity.
Please do not expect me to appreciate someone's show holding an empty jug in hand and promising people the way to satisfy thirst.

Quote "I don't care how much Gurbani someone is quoting."
I do care. I love to listen the true Guru's words from a Paathee, Granthee, Raagee, Baabaa or a Beebee.

Quote "I enjoy discussing points of religious understanding WITHOUT resorting to personal insults or having the same thrown at me."
Nobody has thrown mud. Please feel clean.
True Gurus distribute Naam soap. Still many remain unclean because they are entangled with other institutions.

Quote "But it seems very hard to find such constructive discussions, and these are among the lowest common denominator intended to provoke resentment and rejection and not understanding. My opinion of course."
May God bless you.

Quote "Discussions about points of disagreement are a learning process. Arguments and put downs are just an insult. And to be insulting others while distorting Gurbani to do it would seem more likely to lead to negative spiritual growth than positive."
Should the world better hear your translations and agree with it?

Quote "I have certainly heard of a lot of fake babas, but rarely have I heard that a Sikh bibi was fake because she follows rehitnama. This whole discussion is ridiculous."
One who has found the true Sabad Guru is no more without Naam (Rehitnaamee).

************** 

All institutions and symbols are parts of the worldly drama.
God is nearest and  one realizes HIM first within.

**************

Let us come to the topic Nigura.

Worldly institutions pull beings on false tracks that take them away from the true Sabad Guru making him Nigura.
Only the true Sabad Guru makes one Gur Waalaa. He does not hate or kills someone because of a printed book.
Nigura is one who has not received the true Naam Sabad.
Institutions but behave and teach that one becomes Gur Waalaa if he possesses a printed copy of Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and reads it.
Guru Naanak Jee says that a Nigura reads Paath and lies.
Please ponder. One is not japping Naam when he is reading Paath.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq EhY ]
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq AohY ]
paathu parhai mukhi jhootho bolai niguray kee mati ohai.
Reads Paath, from the mouth speak lies, Niguray's understanding is that.

nwmu n jpeI ikau suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ikau sohY ]4]
nwmu n jpeé ika suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ika sohY ]4]
naamu na japaee kio sukhu paavai binu naavai kio sohai. ||4|| SGGS Ang 1013
Does not japp Naam why one receives Sukh, without Naam why he establishes?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 1, 2008)

Balbirji,

Going through your responses to Harjas Ji line by line to point out why Harjas and others find your vichaar insulting. Your intent may be to cast a clear light, as you understand it, to remove ignorance, to lead people in a different direction. But it does not come across like that.



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!
> 
> Quoting my statement you wrote "Please beware of Baabaas (fathers, spiritual elders) and Beebees (sisters) without true Naam (rehit-naamees)."
> ...



So you have told me that I am a zero, that I am lost in duality, that I am not your BeeBee, and that is the way things will have to look to you for now. Many of us have tried on occasion to encourage you to speak because we have been trying to figure out exactly what it is that your are trying to communicate. Always believing that perhaps we should make an extra attempt to contact you and get to the crux of your thinking. And there are those who have said that kindness is the way to go. But in return you make it impossible. I won't go over the reasons already outlined.

For a while some discussion was going on in this thread that was enjoyable because it was point-counterpoint and interesting to follow. Then things changed. And this happens all too many times. A regrettable pattern.


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## Archived_member2 (Jun 1, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quoting my post you added your words.
"Your translations are in places very strange -- this is not the first time you have taken a unique approach. So again, another individual is going to become very annoyed when reading a sarcastic treatment of their own opinion, only to have this sarcasm backed up by an understanding of Gurbani that is very idiosyncratic."
Why is your signature missing after the above lines? Why have you put my signature after these words? Are you trying to mislead the readers? Is this the role a moderator should play?

Quote "So you have told me that I am a zero, that I am lost in duality, that I am not your BeeBee, and that is the way things will have to look to you for now."
Please do not manipulate my words and lie changing the words. It is your problem how your mind is guiding.

Aadi means the origin of all, God. Zero zero zero means beyond the three Gunas. There is no (zero) duality. Aadi does not mean a bird. I hope one reaches this consciousness now or in the future.  

Quote "Many of us have tried on occasion to encourage you to speak because we have been trying to figure out exactly what it is that your are trying to communicate."
Who is this 'we'? Is this a group or a person with multiple personalities?

Quote "Always believing that perhaps we should make an extra attempt to contact you and your thinking."
Thanks. I have a chair already. I love to sit on a floor near the Guru's Charan though.

Quote "I won't go over the reasons already outlined."
I don't feel I am exchanging views with a stone.

**************

Nigura is also one who has nothing to say about the true Gur because he has never come to know HIM truly.

The reason of sorrows and Dukhas is one's own mind. He should not expect others to say 'sorry' for this and demote healing. 


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 1, 2008)

Balbir ji

*I will try to address your questions and issues one at a time. In fact, this is a rare occasion when I feel you are speaking to me person to person in a direct and open way. So let me answer you. You are speaking in a direct way to me.*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!
> 
> Quoting my post you added your words.
> ...



Now my signature as you requested. I will not forget in the future.
_Antonia A. D'Onofrio (aad0002)
Forum member and Forum leader_


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## Archived_member2 (Jun 1, 2008)

Dear Antonia A. D'Onofrio (aad0002) Jee!
Forum member and Forum leader,

Thanks for the clarification. I hope also in the future you will participate directly on this forum and convince participants with your progress as a Sikh.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 1, 2008)

Balbir ji

What I ask of you are only your prayers that I stay on the path.

Antonia D'Onofrio
Forum member and forum leader
Though next time I may just use the name -- a lot to type.


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