# Why Is Sikhism The True Religion?



## Kairos (Jul 17, 2010)

hello

i would like to learn more abouth sikh religion. 
Why is it in your view the " right ", or true religion, over other ones ? 
Why should someone prefere to become a Sikh, instead a Muslim, or christian, or buddhist , for example ?


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## badshah (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

I suppose you would have to become a Sikh, Muslim, Buddist, Jain and Christian etc etc and then be able to answer your question........

On a simpler note I think the Sikh religion is a refinement of all the other religions and therefore you are only presented with all the goodies..... exmple we do not pray to idols, we should believe in equality, we pray to God and not say the founders, we believe in being natural...... someone add some more.... thanks winkingmunda 

"Why is it in your view the " right ", or true religion, over other ones ?"

Well I cannot remember which Guru said it when asked by a moghul which is better Hinduism or Islam that the Guru replied that they are both good... so if you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a good Christian be a good Christian, if you choose to be a SIkh then be a good SIkh.... different methods of getting to the same creator.


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## Kairos (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



badshah said:


> I suppose you would have to become a Sikh, Muslim, Buddist, Jain and Christian etc etc and then be able to answer your question........
> 
> On a simpler note I think the Sikh religion is a refinement of all the other religions and therefore you are only presented with all the goodies..... exmple we do not pray to idols, we should believe in equality, we pray to God and not say the founders, we believe in being natural...... someone add some more.... thanks winkingmunda



could you tell me what is the core message of sikh religion ?




badshah said:


> "Why is it in your view the " right ", or true religion, over other ones ?"
> 
> Well I cannot remember which Guru said it when asked by a moghul which is better Hinduism or Islam that the Guru replied that they are both good... so if you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a good Christian be a good Christian, if you choose to be a SIkh then be a good SIkh.... different methods of getting to the same creator.



So do you belief in one creator, or in the existence of many gods ?
do you believe, the creator revealed himseld through all religions in the world ?


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## badshah (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Kairos said:


> could you tell me what is the core message of sikh religion ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1. Be good, fight oppression, worship God, live a good family life, work hard, give charity, be a saint and a soldier swordfight

2. We belive in one God, the God of all gods, universes and beings.  We came to know of him through enlightened people who went on to form religions


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## Kairos (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



badshah said:


> 1. Be good, fight oppression, worship God, live a good family life, work hard, give charity, be a saint and a soldier swordfight
> 
> 2. We belive in one God, the God of all gods, universes and beings.  We came to know of him through enlightened people who went on to form religions



thanks for your answer. 

how does a Sikh deal with guilt and sin ?

Who is the God  a Sikh believes in, and how did he reveal himself to us ? 
how could it be through all religions, if for example christianity teaches, that only the God of Abraham should be worshipped, and only Jesus Christ is the way to heaven, and other religions, like islam, for example, tells the oposit ?
Since the views do opose on to the other, both could not tell the truth.


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## Bahadar S (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

In Sikhism God is very forgiving  in many places in Gurbani the Guru tells us that he forgives us if we understand our mistakes. In the first prayer of Sikhism Jap Ji Sahib Guru Nanak tells us that when our Body get dirty we use soap to wash it off. When we commit sins we chant and meditate on the Naam (Name of the Lord) it washes the sins of the soul.

The Lord in Sikhism is the Highest and Lord of all other celestial beings and universes.Whenever sin increases in the Earth there is an increase of falsehood and Truth is covered the Lord will come to destroy falsehood.Guru Gobind Singh ji (10th Guru) writes in Dasam Granth that whenever there is an increase in Sin on the Earth then I will come to stop it, to protect the saints and destroy all evil-doers. 

Guru Nanak( 1st Guru) gave us Gurbani, and Naam. Gurbani is the path it shows the greatness of Naam and how to live your life it teaches how to meditate on Naam  to reach the ultimate goal to go back home like a drop of water (Soul) going into the Ocean (Lord)


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## badshah (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Kairos said:


> thanks for your answer.
> 
> how does a Sikh deal with guilt and sin ?
> 
> ...


 
The God that we belive in is the same God that is known by many names: Allah, God etc etc he is without limit - YouTube- Ek Onkar (mool mantra) and cannot be described fully

Deal with guilt and sin?  Well if you are amritdari then you tell the paanj pyarah and then will how to go in the right direction, but at the end of the day you have to master your own evils to over come sin and therefore no more guilt through self determination, meditation on Gods name and will power


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## Kairos (Jul 17, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Bahadar S said:


> In Sikhism God is very forgiving  in many places in Gurbani the Guru tells us that he forgives us if we understand our mistakes. In the first prayer of Sikhism Jap Ji Sahib Guru Nanak tells us that when our Body get dirty we use soap to wash it off. When we commit sins we chant and meditate on the Naam (Name of the Lord) it washes the sins of the soul.



What is the name of the God of sikhism ? How did he reveal himself, and his rools to be followed ? To who did he give his revelation ? What evidence exists, that the revelation is from the true God, since there are many thousands of different Gods propagated in the world, and some religions propagate millions of different Gods, like hinduism. 




Bahadar S said:


> The Lord in Sikhism is the Highest and Lord of all other celestial beings and universes.Whenever sin increases in the Earth there is an increase of falsehood and Truth is covered the Lord will come to destroy falsehood.



But it seems he is not very sucessful doint that, since sin and falsehood are increasing on earth ever since. 



Bahadar S said:


> Guru Gobind Singh ji (10th Guru) writes in Dasam Granth that whenever there is an increase in Sin on the Earth then I will come to stop it, to protect the saints and destroy all evil-doers.



so how do you explain, that so many people do suffer in jail of many countries, not for what they have done bad, but for their particular faith ?


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## Bahadar S (Jul 20, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

The name of the lord in Sikhism is Waheguru maeaning the wondorous Lord who dispells darkness. When Guruu Nanak was bathing in the river Vayee and disappeared After three days Guru Nanak appeared at the same spot from where he had disappeared. He was no longer the same person he had been and there was a divine light in his eyes and his face was resplendent. Guru Nanak was in the Holy Communion with God. The Lord God revealed Himself to Guru Nanak and enlightened him. Then onwards, Guru Nanak began extensive travel to spread the message of God in the form of musical hymns. Guru Nanak gave us naam and with it saved us from the noose of death.

Sin is ever increasing throughout the World it is the Kali Yuga (Dark Age). The Guru will come and give us Satya Yug (Golden Age) but at the end of ever Kali Yuga there is a great amount of destruction and"cleansing". When the Guru will come it is his own will. Although the time is soon.

People suffer and experience sadness according to your own karma in this life and the previous ones. Unfortunately Guru ji did not give us the knowledge of our previous lives through all the various species weve been born through and as humans, im sure if we knew we would all strive to meditate on Naam and love it winkingmunda and escape the transmigration of the Soul.


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## Kairos (Jul 20, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Bahadar S said:


> The name of the lord in Sikhism is Waheguru maeaning the wondorous Lord who dispells darkness. When Guruu Nanak was bathing in the river Vayee and disappeared After three days Guru Nanak appeared at the same spot from where he had disappeared. He was no longer the same person he had been and there was a divine light in his eyes and his face was resplendent. Guru Nanak was in the Holy Communion with God. The Lord God revealed Himself to Guru Nanak and enlightened him. Then onwards, Guru Nanak began extensive travel to spread the message of God in the form of musical hymns. Guru Nanak gave us naam and with it saved us from the noose of death.
> 
> Sin is ever increasing throughout the World it is the Kali Yuga (Dark Age). The Guru will come and give us Satya Yug (Golden Age) but at the end of ever Kali Yuga there is a great amount of destruction and"cleansing". When the Guru will come it is his own will. Although the time is soon.
> 
> People suffer and experience sadness according to your own karma in this life and the previous ones. Unfortunately Guru ji did not give us the knowledge of our previous lives through all the various species weve been born through and as humans, im sure if we knew we would all strive to meditate on Naam and love it winkingmunda and escape the transmigration of the Soul.



thanks for your explanations. As you know, there are thousands of different religions around the world. Each one proclaiming a different divinity, and different spiritual orders and existences. How do you distinguish the one that tells us the truth, from the one, that is human invention,and does not reflect  truth and reality ? what makes you sure, Sikhism is the true religion, and not islam, or christianity, or Buddhism, or something else ? What makes you believe, the teaching of reencarnation is true ?


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2010)

*re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

The thread title has been changed. It was originally: How to become a sikh? Why is it the true religion? 

At this point it is necessary for me to point out that the conversation so far has nothing to do with "How to become a Sikh?"

I have edited the thread title. Only the first part of it remains with a word changed. The new title is Why is Sikhism  the true religion? That part was retained. The second part of the original title "How to become a Sikh?" has been removed.


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## Bahadar S (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

If i answer this in a personal way i have unshakable faith in the Guru. The Guru's blessings have always been in my family. When i do a ardass (Prayer) when i ask God to help me with something or get me out of a mess it has happened. I can safetly say that whenever i almost due something bad i can hear the Guru i can hear the teachings and i know it is wrong, I still commit many mistakes may the Lord forgive me. God created this Universe and who knows how many more he created evidence for alot of things but not for himself. The idea of faith is in every religion. In sikhism no matter how much you learn you can repeat the Naam millions of times if you dont have faith in your Satguru (True spiritual Teacher) you gain nothing. In sikhism we respect all other religions, Guru Nanak himself respected beings like Mohammed Jesus that they had spiritual power.

 One story when Guru Nanak was preaching his ideas he reached Baghdad highly populated with Muslims. The town head said that Mohammed said that there are only 3 universes (if im not mistaken), and he said to Guru Nanak you preach there are millions of universes upon realms and more which the exact number is known to the Lord,this is not accepted.Guru Nanak replied the Great Mohammed  he had so much spiritual power he could see 3 universes but only 3! The towns head's son said if there are so many then show me, Guru Nanak took his hand took him up out of the earth and showed many nether regions and universes until he was begging because he was scared Guru Nanak brought him back. His father said what did you see he said i saw millions upon millions of universes where i lost count so many different colors and shapes. Then the muslims accepted Guru Nanak into Baghdad , and he never asked people to convert he just spread the faith and whoevers destinies were great followed the path of Guru Nanak.

Its very difficult to answer this type of question all i can say is that when i learn of great beings saints of this religion the things they gained from meditating on the great medcine of this age naam it is unbelievable. some saved people from dying from diseases you cant live from just by saying the Naam. Many of them whatever came out of there mouths becomes true.

When Kabir started meditating on one God who is timeless formless for awhile, and stopped he felt as if his soul has some power now. there were some nearby birds he told told them to die, they died he said live and the souls came back into there bodies this is just one of a moutain full of examples,but this isnt the point of mediatating and reciting Naam these are thing that happen along the way when doing your devotion to God. so when your timeto leave this Matt Lok (Earth) comes the Guru will guide you safetly.

http://tuhitu.blogspot.com/
 this is a great site that has many great stories of sikhism click around and read some even if your not a Sikh a person can learn alot to live a better life.


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

This is an excerpt from an article "May all beings be happy! from http://www.gurbani.org

When one prays for all (_Sarbat_), then the  entire universe prays for him! Like all beads are strung on one thread,  and all waves are formed from the same one water, so are we all strung  on the same One Awareness. Therefore, we are inseparable like the  whiteness of the snow, oil in the seed, fragrance in the flower, heat in  the fire, liquidity of the water, blackness in the collyrium, light in  the bulb, waves in the ocean, gold in the bracelet, clay in the pot, and  rays in the sun. This is why our lives are interwoven with the thread  of Divine Love. God is Love. It is this Divine Love that brings harmony  between souls. As such, the influence of our daily actions and behavior  spreads in ever-widening circles. As our lives are interwoven, we can  each draw the needed strength from all-pervading Divine Presence within  to help each other.  

ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ  ॥: Sooth ek mani sat sahans jaise out poti prabh soee: As one thread  holds hundreds and thousands of beads, He is woven into His creation  (sggs 425). 
ਅਨਲ ਅਗਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਇ ਓਦਧਿ ਜਲ ਕੇਵਲ ਜਲ  ਮਾਂਹੀ ॥: Anal agam jaise lahar mayi oudadh jal keval jal maanhee: The  wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just water  in water (sggs 657). 
ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥ ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ  ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥: Tohee mohee mohee tohee antar kaisaa. Kanak katik jal  trang jaisaa ||1||: You are me, and I am You—what is the difference  between us? We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves  ||1|| (sggs 93). 
ਭਗਵਾਨ ਰਮਣੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਥਾਨ੍ਹਿੰ ॥: Bhagavaan  ramanam sarabatar thaanim: God is pervading and permeating all places  (1354).


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## Kairos (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Bahadar S said:


> If i answer this in a personal way i have unshakable faith in the Guru. The Guru's blessings have always been in my family. When i do a ardass (Prayer) when i ask God to help me with something or get me out of a mess it has happened.



i have made the same experience with the God, to which i pray, which is Jesus Christ, many many times.



Bahadar S said:


> I can safetly say that whenever i almost due something bad i can hear the Guru i can hear the teachings and i know it is wrong, I still commit many mistakes may the Lord forgive me.



that happens to me as well. When i do something wrong, i know its wrong, since the bible is like a mirror to me. The bible tells me the right path, the right way to go. When i don't do, what the bible tells is the right thing, i know i am doing something wrong. 



Bahadar S said:


> God created this Universe and who knows how many more he created evidence for alot of things but not for himself.



I believe in the revelation through nature, which indicates us a creator has made all that exists. But i believe also, that God revealed himself through his successive revelation in the bible, which culminated with the coming of Christ, which was true men, and true God, having both natures inside him. He was the perfect revelation of God. As he said : Who sees me, sees God the father. He and me, we are one. 



Bahadar S said:


> The idea of faith is in every religion. In sikhism no matter how much you learn you can repeat the Naam millions of times if you dont have faith in your Satguru (True spiritual Teacher) you gain nothing.



As a christian, my faith is only toward the God of the bible, God father, God son ( Jesus Christ ) , and God the holy spirit, which habits in all his children. 



Bahadar S said:


> In sikhism we respect all other religions, Guru Nanak himself respected beings like Mohammed Jesus that they had spiritual power.



As a christian i respect also all people which do belong to a different religion than christianity. That means however not, that i need to agree with these teachings. 

I have so far, sorry to be frank, not seen any examplification or explanation, why Sikhism is the true religion. It seems its just based on personal experiences. See : in christianity, many healings, and miracles happen. Christ also made many miracles, and i know from many people, that prayed to the God of the bible, and got heald from breast cancer, aids, and many other deseases. So we need to figure out a other way to find out, which religion might be the true religion. Since christianity says so, but Sikhism says differently. Since the followers of both religions make supernatural experiences, like healing of deseases etc. this cannot be a paramenter to find out, where the truth relies. 

What makes me believe, the bible is true, are not only personal experiences, but also what the bible tells us. There are literally hundreds of fullfilled prophecies, which are a strong evidence, what the bible tells us, is true.


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## dalbirk (Jul 21, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

Kairos Ji ,
         This might seem a out of the subject but in Gurbani ( Sikhism ) we certainly do not believe in the neccesity ( usefulness ) of miracles except that they produce EGO in the human beings doing it . It is only God whom we believe is capable of doing miracles . Also we do not believe in any prophecies or any prophecies coming true . Sikhism is a pragmatic religion which believes in One God for the whole Universe ( all religions like Judaism , Islam , Christianity , Hinduism , Atheists Sikhs etc etc ) , each of the world religions have been formed as per His will . Each path lead to same God ( some are simpler ,shorter others are longer , 
more complex ) Each one is capable of getting liberated ( even atheists ) it all depends upon His mercy ( will ) . So each one of us should pray to that God the qualities of Whom cannot be described but mentioned briefly in MOOLMANTAR which goes as " There is but One God , His name is Truth ( He does exists ) , He is the Creator  Sustainer  Destroyer , Sans Fear ( neither gives fear nor takes fear ) , Sans enemies ( has no enemies ) , Timeless , Does not come in cycles of births & deaths , He is all by Himself , He is attained by the Grace of True Guru ( Word Teacher / Sri Guru Granth Sahib ) "


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



dalbirk said:


> Kairos Ji ,
> This might seem a out of the subject but in Gurbani ( Sikhism ) we certainly do not believe in the neccesity ( usefulness ) of miracles except that they produce EGO in the human beings doing it . It is only God whom we believe is capable of doing miracles . Also we do not believe in any prophecies or any prophecies coming true .



the point is not, if someone believes, or not believes in prophecies. Fact is , that the bible contains ~ 2500 profecies,and ~ 2000 of them fullfilled, no errors, specially in regard of the coming of the messiah. That demands a position. Why is it so ? Only God knows the future. Isnt it then, that the bible was inspired by the living God ? I don't know of any other religious book with thousands of prophecies, which fullfilled 100%. Only the bible. For me, that is evidence, the bible is God's word. 

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible




dalbirk said:


> Sikhism is a pragmatic religion which believes in One God for the whole Universe ( all religions like Judaism , Islam , Christianity , Hinduism , Atheists Sikhs etc etc ) , each of the world religions have been formed as per His will .



I would say : they have been formed by his permission. I believe however, that God wants that all know the truth, which leads to forgiveness for sins, and forever life. Since every religion tells a other story, not all religions can be true. If someone tells you, reencarnation exists, and someone else, there will be ressurrection, and judgement afterwards, both cannot be true. Reality is only one, and the truth is only one. Religions are the initiative of humans , to find God, and create their ways to reach that God. The truth is revealed however, when the true living God reveals himself to us. I believe, he has done that through the bible.  Here, listed some reasons , why i believe the bible is true :

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html




> Each path lead to same God ( some are simpler ,shorter others are longer , more complex ) Each one is capable of getting liberated ( even atheists ) it all depends upon His mercy ( will )



If that would be true, than Jesus Christ would be wrong, and he would be a liar :

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

I have been watching the thread and have concerns. It has been moved out of New to Sikhism and into Interfaith Dialogs in order to clarify to those interested in Sikhism that much we are reading here is not Sikhism but Christian dogma.

Everyone needs to remain aware of the SPN prohibition against proselytizing. Thank you


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

Kairos ji,

Guru fateh.

I have been watching this interaction going back and forth and decided to give me 2 cent worth in a factual manner.

The fact is:

*What  "Jesus said" is in doubt. All Jesus'  words are second-hand quotes by  Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.  This Son of an omnipotent, omniscient God   who could confound the wise men of the temple never wrote his own  gospel, not even a single word.*

Whereas all the Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru, is written by the original authours. There is no hearsay in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as it is in the Bible.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Kairos ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



the bible says :

 "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

wheter you believe , the bible is trustworthy, or not, is entirely your decision.
I can only testify that i believe, its God's word, 100%. There are many reasons to believe so. If Jesus would not have ressurrected, there would be no christianity today. 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

Something that i find very beautiful of sikhism is that it does not condemn you to some sort of Hell for not being part of that faith rather your judged upon your good and bad actions


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Kairos said:


> the bible says :
> 
> "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
> 
> ...




Kairos ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am just stating the facts. It is your call to accept them or not. Facts have nothing to do with any belief.

And Next time do not put any URL but you be able to explain it yourself in your own words or you can quote the Bible wit the verse Number and we can discuss about it. Posting URL means that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Who wrote the above verse, when and why? Please give details in your own words rather than copying and pasting url.

And only living animals including humans breathe. So, if your claim is correct, then the God you serve is a mere mortal. Those are your words, not mine about God breathing.

Make knowledge your best friend rather than your worst enemy.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> Something that i find very beautiful of sikhism is that it does not condemn you to some sort of Hell for not being part of that faith rather your judged upon your good and bad actions



Than Sikhism does not distinguish amongst many other religions. The bible is in this regard quit unique. In the sense, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of all humanity, and we can find forgiveness for our sins, and eternal life, only through repentance of our sins, and faith in Jesus Christ, as our lord and savior.


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

So if your christian you can go out drink,hurt people,start fights,egotistic.etc (commiting Sins)
if i repent for that ill be forgiven then i can do it all over again and then repent and be forgiven again and obtain Eternal life  , because Jesus died for humanity on the cross 2000 years ago???


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

What about the other species do they not have souls do they not have any value do they even hold any importance in Christianity?


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> So if your christian you can go out drink,hurt people,start fights,egotistic.etc (commiting Sins)
> if i repent for that ill be forgiven then i can do it all over again and then repent and be forgiven again and obtain Eternal life  , because Jesus died for humanity on the cross 2000 years ago???



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved 19  through faith, 20  and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not from 21  works, so that no one can boast. 22  2:10 For we are his workmanship, *having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them. 23* 

true repentance means, someone leaves its sinful life and lifestyle , and starts a new life in Jesus Christ. And in gratitude for the received forgiveness, that person starts to do the good works and proves this way, that his repentance and becoming a christian was honest and true. 
If someone shows no change in life, it is evidence, its commitment with God and Christ was not true. 
So clearly good works must follow the ones, that call themself Christians, otherwise they are not. That does not mean, a Christian does not fail and sin anymore. But it is not as before, a lifestyle and habitude, but it happens one or another time. But then, when we fall, we stand  go up again, ask Jesus for forgiveness, and be sure, God is ready to forgive us.


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> What about the other species do they not have souls do they not have any value do they even hold any importance in Christianity?



what do you mean with other species ?


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

does the Bible find other life forms to hold any importance do they have a  purpose (birds,bears lions etc..).


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

I have some friends who call themselves Christians.They go and do pretty bad things,i rather not go into detail, but they ask for forgivness from Jesus because they have faith in him ,and then they go do there bad things again technically are they considered christians. They can simply say that i believe in Jesus but they cant go as far as to change there lifestyle and make that commitment, are they considered Christians, are they going to have Eternal Life and be in "Heaven". If not there not considered christian,then there obviously going to hell because in christianity if your not christian you are going to hell. And lets say you from a different religion lived a pure life stayed away from sin as much as possible lived a good life of many pious deeds, youre going to hell because your not christian...


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> does the Bible find other life forms to hold any importance do they have a  purpose (birds,bears lions etc..).



Of course. All creation was made by God, to glorify him. This includes all creatures, all animals, all plants. Everything.


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

If you say animals are made to glorify God then why do you eat them?


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> I have some friends who call themselves Christians.They go and do pretty bad things,i rather not go into detail, but they ask for forgivness from Jesus because they have faith in him ,and then they go do there bad things again technically are they considered christians. They can simply say that i believe in Jesus but they cant go as far as to change there lifestyle and make that commitment, are they considered Christians, are they going to have Eternal Life and be in "Heaven".



First of all, there is a reward for the once that sanctify themself , and obey Gods commands, and do his will.  There are many, that call themself christians, but their doings prove quit the contrary. They are not true christians. But its in the end God to judge, we cannot judge anyone else. 




> If not there not considered christian,then there obviously going to hell because in christianity if your not christian you are going to hell. And lets say you from a different religion lived a pure life stayed away from sin as much as possible lived a good life of many pious deeds, youre going to hell because your not christian...


 Indeed the bible says, good deeds will not save anyone. This is quit clear in the bible.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

 The only way to heaven is to repent from your sins,  believe in Jesus Christ as lord and savior, and as consequence follow him truehartly. 

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy." Titus 3:5


*
According to the Christian Testament, it is believed by Christians that* (Narayanjot Kaur thinks this discussion has been very civilized so far. So she has added this sentence in green, so that some are saved from the temptation to preach to the forum and possibly err by proselytizing  )

John 3:16

God demonstrated His love by sending His promised Son, the Savior and Messiah, Jesus Christ, and allowing Him to be crucified. God paid for our sins Himself. The Lord is good, just and merciful beyond our understanding.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life“.


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## Bahadar S (Jul 21, 2010)

Well Kairos I have one question to what you stated but I think for the betterment of this forum, and sanctity of both religions i wont state it. I respect Christianity because Sikhism teaches to respect all religions.:carefreemunda:


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> Well Kairos I have one question to what you stated but I think for the betterment of this forum, and sanctity of both religions i wont state it. I respect Christianity because Sikhism teaches to respect all religions.:carefreemunda:



you can send me also a personal mail , i will respond , no problem.


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## Seeker9 (Jul 21, 2010)

Kairos Ji

I have read your posts with interest

You said earlier:
"thanks for your explanations. As you know, there are thousands of  different religions around the world. Each one proclaiming a different  divinity, and different spiritual orders and existences. How do you  distinguish the one that tells us the truth, from the one, that is human  invention,and does not reflect  truth and reality ? what makes you  sure, Sikhism is the true religion, and not islam, or christianity, or  Buddhism, or something else ? What makes you believe, the teaching of  reencarnation is true ?"

You then stated your belief very clearly afterwards and so you are saying that Christianity is the only true religion and all these thousands of other religions are a waste of time

I note Tejwant Singh Ji made some very valid points about the distinction between the Christian scriptures and Sikh scriptures

The Sikh scriptures have not had the same level of manipulation as those  in the Bible which at different times throughout history have been included/excluded/found buried etc 

So having discussed the "true religion" I would ask what is the "true Bible?"

Considering they are supposed to be eyewitness accounts, the 4 Gospels in the current  "offical" version of the Bible have a remarkable number of inconsistencies. Just do a technique called parallel reading and see these differences yourself

For example, the parable about the faith of the Centurion. In one version, it is the centurion who approached jesus for help yet in another it is his servants. One would assume eyewitnesses could distinguish between a Roman centurion and his servants?

2000 out of 2500 prophecies?? I think not!

I also found your belief in miracles as justification for the validity of Christianity as the true religion surprising in light of various quotes in the Bible discouraging believers from chasing miracles. Here's one:

“_Then some of the scribes and pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we  wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, “An evil and  unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except  the Sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the  whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the  heart of the earth three days and three nights_.” (Matthew 12:  38-40)


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## Kairos (Jul 21, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> The Sikh scriptures have not had the same level of manipulation as those  in the Bible which at different times throughout history have been included/excluded/found buried etc



This is a critic i hear frequently. But we have for example the qumran rolls, which are dated 100BC. That means , when they were found, they were several hundred years older than the oldest manuscripts known until then. No significant differences were found. The jews copied with great precision, so we can be confident, that nothing was manipulated or changed. There are literally thousands of fragments and documents known, also of the New Testament, that we can compare against each other to find out what belongs and what was added.so we can be confident that we can read today, what originally was written.



Seeker9 said:


> So having discussed the "true religion" I would ask what is the "true Bible?"



I don't know what is your language. But i would say, the most common bible you will find in your language, you can trust. In my language, there are different translations. Some are closer to the original text, some others are translated in a way, that a laymen can understand it better. The choice is upon individual taste.



Seeker9 said:


> Considering they are supposed to be eyewitness accounts, the 4 Gospels in the current  "offical" version of the Bible have a remarkable number of inconsistencies. Just do a technique called parallel reading and see these differences yourself



there are various answers to this question. First of all, i believe that different eye witnesses, never remember everything 100% the same as others. So we can be confident, that the 4 gospels had different authors. The authors may have heard the gospels from the disciples, and then wrote them down. John was probably written by the apostle John. I think each author wanted to portray a particular side of Jesus, and Matthews for example was writing specially for the Jews, emphasised Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. Different authors wanted to emphasize different aspects of his divine nature.
Thus some people believe that Matthew, Mark, and Luke mainly show his human side, whereas John mainly shows his spiritual side.



Seeker9 said:


> For example, the parable about the faith of the Centurion. In one version, it is the centurion who approached jesus for help yet in another it is his servants. One would assume eyewitnesses could distinguish between a Roman centurion and his servants?




The order of events seem to be that the Centurion first sent the Jewish elders
Jesus then agreed to go. Then the Centurion came to Jesus. The Centurion heard, that Jesus was nearby,  then he sent friends  to speak to Jesus and say that he, the Centurion, was not worthy for Jesus to even enter his home. Jesus continued on. Then as Jesus neared the home, the Centurion himself approached Jesus  to tell Him that he was not worthy for Him to enter his house.



Seeker9 said:


> 2000 out of 2500 prophecies?? I think not!



http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible



Seeker9 said:


> I also found your belief in miracles as justification for the validity of Christianity as the true religion surprising in light of various quotes in the Bible discouraging believers from chasing miracles. Here's one:
> 
> “_Then some of the scribes and pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we  wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, “An evil and  unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except  the Sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the  whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the  heart of the earth three days and three nights_.” (Matthew 12:  38-40)



Jesus himself made many miracles, to show, he was the  true Messias. 
So he didnt say it to the Scribes, because he was against miracles. 

Why did the Pharisees ask Him for a sign? The answer appears in the section immediately preceding their request. Jesus had been preaching that a tree is known by its fruit , so naturally, these Jews asked for a sign from Jesus to prove He was the Messiah! They wanted to see what fruit He would produce!
Jesus  denied their request  because they had completely missed the point . To satisfy their curiosity, they wanted to see a miracle, but the fruit Jesus meant was repentance, good works, and spiritual growth. So he did not attend them with their request.


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## Seeker9 (Jul 22, 2010)

Dear Kairos Ji

Some comments from me in a different colour:



Kairos said:


> This is a critic i hear frequently. But we have for example the qumran rolls, which are dated 100BC. That means , when they were found, they were several hundred years older than the oldest manuscripts known until then. No significant differences were found.
> 
> I'm afraid I disagree completely. Scholars believe the scrolls to have been the work of a group called the Essenes and their  "Teacher of Righteousness" is identified with Jesus and is different from the NT in a number of ways
> 
> ...



I think you missed my point. There are other examples in the Bible as well. The point was about the need for miracles vs faith in the Truth. Sikhs focus on the latter and not the former, although there are many examples of miraculous acts by the Ten Gurus

I have huge respect for the Bible but I also tend to take a more arms length approach when it comes to Biblical scriptures, focusing on the lesson and overall message but not reading too literally into the text. I can do this and believe this as I am not a Christian. Obviously, your approach will be completely different

Thanks for reading


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## dalbirk (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Kairos ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



This is what Max Arthur Macauliffe wrote about the authenticity of the Guru's teaching
"The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of its dogmas from most other theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known, have not left a line of their own composition and we only know what they taught through tradition or second-hand information. If Pythagoras wrote of his tenets, his writings have not descended to us. We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophanes. Buddha has left no written memorial of his teaching. Kungfu-tze, known to Europeans as Confuscius, left no documents in which he detailed the principles of his moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or compiled by his adherents and followers. But the compositions of the Sikh Gurus are preserved and we know at first hand what they taught."


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## Kairos (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



dalbirk said:


> This is what Max Arthur Macauliffe wrote about the authenticity of the Guru's teaching
> "The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of its dogmas from most other theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known, have not left a line of their own composition and we only know what they taught through tradition or second-hand information. If Pythagoras wrote of his tenets, his writings have not descended to us. We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophanes. Buddha has left no written memorial of his teaching. Kungfu-tze, known to Europeans as Confuscius, left no documents in which he detailed the principles of his moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or compiled by his adherents and followers. But the compositions of the Sikh Gurus are preserved and we know at first hand what they taught."



I understand your point. Well, John was Jesus eyewitness, and the other gospels were written by disciples, which had their informations also from eyewitnesses, namely Jesus' apostles. That fact does not make necessarly the Gospels more ore less faithful and true. Beside this, we have the letters, written by the apostels, like Paul, John, Peter etc. which gave us all instructions and doctrine . What we have to focus on, is : are the writings of the sacred scriptures, independently if they were written by the great teachers themself, or by their disciples, a human invention, or are they the revelation of the true living God ? I do not believe, the living God is a lier, which decieves willfully his creatures. There is only one reality, and one truth. 
Since there are literally thousands of religions in the world, and all say something different, its obvious they cannot all be true. The truth is only one. 
So we have to ask ourself : which one does have the credentials to reflect the true truth ? Only one is possible. Jesus Christ differentiates himself from all spiritural leaders, which entered this world, manyfolds. First of all, Jesus came as the impersonification of the living God, truly men, but truly God as well. Jesus made miracles, which no other human being did before, and after him. Jesus was the fullfillment of over 400 prophecies in the old testament, and fullfilled ALL of them. One of the most explicit one is in Isaiah 53, where its written :

53:1 Who would have believed 1  what we 2  just heard? 3 
When 4  was the Lord’s power 5  revealed through him?
53:2 He sprouted up like a twig before God, 6 
like a root out of parched soil; 7 
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention, 8 
no special appearance that we should want to follow him. 9 
53:3 He was despised and rejected by people, 10 
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him; 11 
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant. 12 
53:4 But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain; 13 
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done. 14 
53:5 He was wounded because of 15  our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well; 16 
because of his wounds we have been healed. 17 
53:6 All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him. 18 
53:7 He was treated harshly and afflicted, 19 
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth. 20 
53:8 He was led away after an unjust trial 21  –
but who even cared? 22 
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living; 23 
because of the rebellion of his own 24  people he was wounded.
53:9 They intended to bury him with criminals, 25 
but he ended up in a rich man’s tomb, 26 
because 27  he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
53:10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made, 28 
he will see descendants and enjoy long life, 29 
and the Lord’s purpose will be accomplished through him.
53:11 Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. 30 
“My servant 31  will acquit many, 32 
for he carried their sins. 33 
53:12 So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes, 34 
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful, 35 
because he willingly submitted 36  to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened 37  on behalf of the rebels.”

more prophecies, which fullfilled in regard of Jesus, you can read here :

http://100prophecies.org/page4.htm

beside this, we have prophecies in the bible, which did not fullfill already, but if we look around us, we see how the world is running exactly toward the end of times with things preparing to happen exactly as described in the bible. For example the bible tells us that a Antichrist will come, which will be the leader of a one world government, a totalitary and dictatorial system , with total control of its citizen, where nobody will nead cash money to buy, and to sell. 
Well, what we see today, is exactly this scenario : the world is running towards a one worls government. The freemasons, the illuminati, and some other organisations, are ruling the world behind the scene. The european union is already a reality. The Bilderberg group reunites each year the most influent men to decide the destiny of our world. They are the leaders, which control the industry, banking system, media, governments, simply everything. Each crisis is provoked by them, with the clear goal, to have a new world order, which is a system of a one world government. Nobody will be able to buy and sell through cash money. Each one of us will need to have a microchip implant in our skin, exactly as prophetized in the bible, without it, nobody will be able to buy or sell anything. 

just a few examples. Later on i can write more reasons which make me believe, the Bible is the inspired word of God.


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## Seeker9 (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

Dear Kairos Ji
Some comments from me in green:



Kairos said:


> I understand your point. Well, John was Jesus eyewitness, and the other gospels were written by disciples,
> 
> How can you be 100% certain of this??
> 
> ...


A good melting pot of various conspiracy theories. You've missed the freemasons and Illuminati and Corpus Dei of the Roman Catholic church. But I guess you will come to these like you said .....


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## Kairos (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Seeker9 said:


> A good melting pot of various conspiracy theories. You've missed the freemasons and Illuminati and Corpus Dei of the Roman Catholic church. But I guess you will come to these like you said .....



these are not theories, these are facts. Just google, and you will see.... 
if you have further specific questions, feel free to ask.


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Kairos said:


> these are not theories, these are facts. Just google, and you will see....



Kairos ji

Not everything on the Internet is factual. Much of it has to be evaluated with a critical mind. winkingmunda


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## Seeker9 (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Kairos said:


> these are not theories, these are facts. Just google, and you will see....
> if you have further specific questions, feel free to ask.


 
Well...what can I say...I guess one man's fact is another man's fiction......
winkingmunda


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## Kairos (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Kairos ji
> 
> Not everything on the Internet is factual. Much of it has to be evaluated with a critical mind. winkingmunda



to what exactly are you refering to ?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



dalbirk said:


> This is what Max Arthur Macauliffe wrote about the authenticity of the Guru's teaching
> "The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of its dogmas from most other theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known, have not left a line of their own composition and we only know what they taught through tradition or second-hand information. If Pythagoras wrote of his tenets, his writings have not descended to us. We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophanes. Buddha has left no written memorial of his teaching. Kungfu-tze, known to Europeans as Confuscius, left no documents in which he detailed the principles of his moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or compiled by his adherents and followers. But the compositions of the Sikh Gurus are preserved and we know at first hand what they taught."




Dalbirk ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for your post. That is why Sikhi is unique and it is not based on hearsays like the Bible is. The Bible was put together in Nicea in the 400's AD and Gospels of many Apostles were not added like the Gospel of *Thomas *for example. The Gospels of *Matthew, Mark, Luke and John* which are in the Bible were written between 65 to 120 years after Jesus died.

If one asks Kairos and Bittu, who is  complaining here about the deletion of his posts for nothing rather than interacting, what these two who claim to be good Christians did,ate,wore,how many people and about what they talked to in details 5 years ago, let's see what their responses are like.

So, you have raised exactly the point I made in my post but as you may have noticed that Kairos and Bittu do not take the challenges quite well. This is the reason neither of them has not responded to any of my posts because they know that their nonsensical babbling will be taken to task. 

It is hillarious to  notice that he was able to respond to your post directed towards me with more copying and pasting and excuses rather than accepting my challenge in the post and explain the reasons to me so we could have a learning experience together.

This shows that there is definitively some hidden agenda behind their posts which they are too insecure to discuss.

It is easy to copy and paste and hence hide behind the scriptures of the religion one believes in and then keep quiet when asked some questions. The silence is deafening and shows the insecurity in their own belief system.

Both Kairos and Bittu call themselves Christians but yet not brave enough like Jesus was on the Cross to respond when asked which shows their personal fears and fervent agenda with the blinders. What a shame!

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Dalbirk ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> Thanks for your post. That is why Sikhi is unique and it is not based on hearsays like the Bible is.



I hope you don't mind if i correct you. The gospels were not written by Jesus himself. That is true. We believe actually all the bible was inspired directly by God , as its written :

 Second Timothy 3:16 

*All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,*

God superintended the human authors of the Bible so that, while using their own writing styles and personalities, they still recorded exactly what God intended. The Bible was not dictated by God, but it was perfectly guided and entirely inspired by Him.

Humanly speaking, the Bible was written by approximately 40 men of diverse backgrounds over the course of 1500 years.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Kairos said:


> I hope you don't mind if i correct you. The gospels were not written by Jesus himself. That is true. We believe actually all the bible was inspired directly by God , as its written :
> 
> Second Timothy 3:16
> 
> ...



Kairos ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I am thankful and delighted  that you have finally taken the initiative to respond which is a very good first step and hopefully a constructive interaction can start from here. 

You write:



> *I hope you don't mind if i correct you.* The gospels were not written by  Jesus himself. That is true. We believe actually all the bible was  inspired directly by God , as its written :
> 
> Second Timothy 3:16
> 
> *All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,  correcting and training in righteousness,*



Pardon my ignorance but what are you correcting me about? 
I fail to see it.

You are rather agreeing with me, so in other words you are correcting yourself.

1.Please share with us who is Timothy and when and what made him write the above verse?

2. Can you also explain the meaning if the above verse in your own words? 

3. What message do you get from it and how do you interpret it personally? I would like you to share your thoughts about it.

4. Please define God to me according to your faith.

5. What does God- breathed mean and how can Timothy claim that?



> God superintended the human authors of the Bible so that, while using  their own writing styles and personalities, they still recorded exactly  what God intended. The Bible was not dictated by God, but it was  perfectly guided and entirely inspired by Him.



6. Can you please also elaborate what you mean by *"superintended the human authors *".

7. What modus operandi did God use to do that and how can that be proved by you?

I have many other questions, but we will start with the above ones first.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Seeker9 (Jul 22, 2010)

I hope this reads ok as it is my first time posting via a mobile phone!

Dear Kairos Ji

I am struggling to understand the significance of the correction in your last post as all religions would claim to be God inspired

Perhaps you could respond directly to some of the issues that I, Tejwant Singh Ji and others have raised?

Thanks


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## Kairos (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Pardon my ignorance but what are you correcting me about?
> I fail to see it.



you said :



Tejwant Singh said:


> That is why Sikhi is unique and it is not based on hearsays like the Bible is.



i might have not expressed myself clear enough. While the gospels were not written by Jesus directly, and on that i agree with you, the many other books in the bible ( total 66 ) where written by over 40 different authors, of which for example the letters of Paul are attributed directly to him. So they are first hand.  But, and this is a important factor, we believe, 

_All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,_

that means, in the end, the holy spirit of God was the author of all the bible. We believe its Gods word. Its as God was talking to us directly.  
So it does not matter to us, that the gospels where not written by Jesus directly, they were written by people, which were  inspired by God. 

_1.Please share with us who is Timothy and when and what made him write the above verse?_

This book was written ~ 60 a.C by the apostle Paul to Timothy, which was a young pastor, which was helping the apostle in his work. 



> 2. Can you also explain the meaning if the above verse in your own words?3. What message do you get from it and how do you interpret it personally? I would like you to share your thoughts about it.



God choose the writers and authors of the bible, inspired them to write down, what he wanted, so that all of us could accurately know what is good, true,and holy. 



> 4. Please define God to me according to your faith.



Lets first of all have some evidence from science. According to the Big Bang, our universe was created ~ 13.7 bio years ago. " Before " the Big Bang, nothing existed. No time, no matter/energy, no space. Nothing physical. 
Everything that begins to exist, has a cause. The universe began to exist. Thererfore, the universe has a cause. How would this cause have to be ?
It had to be timeless , beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, selfexistent,  very powerful, and personal. We can deduce this from scientific knowledge. Interestingly, the bible describes God exactly like that. He is sovereign, righteous, good, free from sin, holy, pure, light, perfect in his character and person, just, love, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, immutable, omnipotent, and a trinity ( God father, God son, and God holy spirit )



> 5. What does God- breathed mean and how can Timothy claim that?



you can translate the word breathed  as inspired for a better understanding. 



> 6. Can you please also elaborate what you mean by *"superintended the human authors *".



see above. 



> 7. What modus operandi did God use to do that and how can that be proved by you?



I understand it as God influenced the biblical writers in thoughts , so that they wrote what he wanted them to write. A important prove are 

the scientific correctness of what the biblical writers wrote thousands of years ago, and modern science today confirms :

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencebible.html

and the biblical prophecies : only God can know the future.


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## Lee (Jul 23, 2010)

Kairos said:


> hello
> 
> i would like to learn more abouth sikh religion.
> Why is it in your view the " right ", or true religion, over other ones ?
> Why should someone prefere to become a Sikh, instead a Muslim, or christian, or buddhist , for example ?


 
Kairos ji,

This assumes that there is one true religion, not an assumption that I agree with.

Why would God populate the world with such veriaty of people, of mindests, of POV, and then give us only the one way to reach God?

It makes no sense to me, and so I would say whatever religion you are comfable in then that is your true religion.

There is after all only one God, no?


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## Kairos (Jul 23, 2010)

Lee said:


> Kairos ji,
> 
> This assumes that there is one true religion, not an assumption that I agree with.
> 
> ...



fact that there is such a variety of people all over the world has no meaning in regard of this question. In fact, in Gods eyes, we are all in the same boat.
The variety of religions is not due to the variety of people, but human nature, which tries to fill its inner void with religion, to try to reach and find God and his favour .Each religion through its own way. But there is a general distinction an difference of all religions, compared to  christianity. 

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/exclusive.html

 “Natural religion in all its forms presupposes holy character and conduct as the essential antecedent condition of God's favor. Christianity in all its genuine forms presupposes the favor of God as the essential antecedent condition of holy character and conduct.” - A.A. Hodge

"The idea that there are really no substantive differences between religions needs to be held up to careful scrutiny and declared fraudulent. For example, Islam says that Jesus was not crucified. Christianity says He was. Only one of us can be right. Judaism says Jesus was not the Messiah. Christianity says He was. Only one of us can be right. Hinduism says God has often been incarnate. Christianity says God was incarnate only in Jesus. We cannot both be right. Buddhism says that the world's miseries will end when we do what is right. Christianity says we cannot do what is right. The world's miseries will end when we believe what is right" - Alistar Begg, Made For His Pleasure , 126

The position is basically that Christianity is not true because it is intolerant and judgmental.  The problem with the position is that even those who deny truth’s exclusivity, in effect, exclude those who do not deny it. They are themselves taking a position of truth … a belief that all ways are true as long as they do not claim exclusivity, but in doing so it establishes its own truth claim which excludes others who do not believe all ways are true, thereby canceling itself out.   They say "stop being intolerant by claiming Christ is the only way" while their very statement has intolerantly imposing its own values on Christians with the intent that they will conform to their political correctness.

The Westminster Confession Chapter 7 Of God's Covenant with Man. States:

II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.


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## Lee (Jul 23, 2010)

Kairos said:


> fact that there is such a variety of people all over the world has no meaning in regard of this question. In fact, in Gods eyes, we are all in the same boat.
> The variety of religions is not due to the variety of people, but human nature, which tries to fill its inner void with religion, to try to reach and find God and his favour .Each religion through its own way. But there is a general distinction an difference of all religions, compared to christianity.
> 
> http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/exclusive.html
> ...


 

You know Kairos Ji,

Although all that you have posted above is meant to sway or teach that all religoins are differant, I have not denied that they are so it is all irrelevant to my point I'm afraid.

So what is releveant?

Sir, how many creative Gods exist?  How many Gods are responsible for the creation of the universe, and how man others exist?

The answer is clearly one, I bet you belive it to be so?

Is the one God then responsible for the whole of teh creation?  Well yes of course so.

So you would agree that each and every one of us are creatures of God, that in addition to this God is a loving God who wants us all to reach for God?

Do you think that the very first idea of a creative God was dreampt up by man or that God has planted this seed in the minds of men?

Do you think that the diffrances in culture and thus belife of mankind is mankinds fault, that we have ever had any control over it?

You say human nature, but I ask whom is responsible for this human nature?  Us?  Do we really have that amount of control over our selves?

No the answer must be God.  Then consider, why would a loving God plant false seeds into the mind of man?

I say again there is no one true religoin, all are from God all are valid.  Ahhh but some have certianly been changed from their initial teachings by the heart of mankind.

You are Christian, what the did Jesus say when asked what is the ultimate law?

Everything, and sir I really mean this, every thing else is simply window dressing and unwarrented confusion.

I submit to you this idea for your consideration.

All religions agree on this:

God says, love God with all of your heart and your mind and your soul, and love your fellow being as you would love your God, for most assuredly there exists not one iota of matter that is not of God.

Do your sir agree or disagree with this?


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## Kairos (Jul 23, 2010)

Lee said:


> No the answer must be God.  Then consider, why would a loving God plant false seeds into the mind of man?



I do not think, God plants false seeds in our heart. We do it ourself. 



> I say again there is no one true religoin, all are from God all are valid.



Since each religion tells another story, that is not possible. God would not deceive us, and tell us various truths, each one contrary to a other. That is simply not possible. Jesus said , that he is the only way to the father. And that is what i believe. 



> God says, love God with all of your heart and your mind and your soul, and love your fellow being as you would love your God, for most assuredly there exists not one iota of matter that is not of God.
> 
> Do your sir agree or disagree with this?



and love your fellow being as you would love _yourself_ .
Of course, Its what Jesus teached. So what ?


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## Lee (Aug 4, 2010)

Kairos said:


> I do not think, God plants false seeds in our heart. We do it ourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Kairos ji,

All that you say above is down to interupretation of holy scripture is it not?

I agree that God does not plant false seeds that indeed we do itourselves.  We do it with selective understanding of the words of many of Gods messangers to us.

John 14 says:

'Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'

Which is what you allued to.  Now how to interpritate these words?

Guru ji says much the same thing you know.  We need a teacher to reach God.

In Sikhi it is better to qoute the whole, rather than one part in order to fully understand, so here is the link to te King James version:

http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm

If you read the whole thing you'll see that Jesus also tells Thomas when he asks to see the father that he (Thomas) has been with Jesus for so long yet fails to reconise the father in Jesus.  Does he then go on to say that God is only within Jesus, or does Jesus teach that God is all pervading?

The holy scripture of each religion do appear to 'tell another story' but do you not think this may be down to differant cultures?

In Indian culture the bare head is a mark of disrespect towards God, yet in my own English culture we are taught to uncover the head before stepping into a house of God, or as a mark of respect when a funeral passes we take off the hat.  Do you say then that cultureal mores trump Gods truth?

In all likelyhood the truth is that as long a respect is shown it does not matter what your culture says is respectful or not, As I say window dressing.

All religoins agree on the point of my previous post.  You have added fron your understanding of your own faith Christiantiy, that God wants us to love each other as we love ourselves?  Have you considered why?

I would answer that there is not one iota of existance within which God does not reside, yes that means you and all that lives.  Of course then to truely love God we must love each other.

Think for a second of your own culture's fairy tales, or there eqilivilant.
A fairy tale can be likend to a Biblical parable in that each contains some moral to be taken or learnt.  How many kinds ot tale an YOU think of which attempts the teach the same morality?  Does it not then make perfect sense that God would provide teachings understandable by differing cultures, or do you subscribe to the theory of a choosen peoples?

Forget the window dressing of each set of holy scriputre and instead ask whichever teacher you follow for Gods truth.

Let us remind ourselves of thuis truth.

God says, love your God with all of your heart and your soul and your mind, and love the entirity of Gods creation as you would love your God, as most inevitably there exists not one iota of the creatuion that lacks God's presenace.

Again I would ask if you agree or disagree with this?


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Lee said:


> Kairos ji,
> 
> All that you say above is down to interupretation of holy scripture is it not?



no. its about wheter you believe in Jesus, or not. wheter it was true what he said, namely being the only way to the father, or not. 



Lee said:


> Guru ji says much the same thing you know.  We need a teacher to reach God.



thats not the same thing, as what Jesus said. Jesus said, he is the *ONLY* way to the father. He did not say : I am *A* way to the father, amongst many possible others. He did not say : Nobody comes to the father, that through *A* teacher. He said : Nobody comes to the father, than through *ME*. So there is not much room of interpretation, but room to wheter believe Jesus is the only way, or he is not. You have just two choices. To believe in Jesus, or not. 

In Sikhi it is better to qoute the whole, rather than one part in order to fully understand, so here is the link to te King James version:



> If you read the whole thing you'll see that Jesus also tells Thomas when he asks to see the father that he (Thomas) has been with Jesus for so long yet fails to reconise the father in Jesus.  Does he then go on to say that God is only within Jesus, or does Jesus teach that God is all pervading?



We believe in a triune God, God father, God son,and God holy spirit. 
God was clearly saying that to receive eternal life, and go to the father, it was that we would believe in HIM, and his sacrifice on the cross, that he paid the price of sin, which was death, for us, so that we would not have to pay ourself for our sins with eternal damnation. Thats why he said he is the only way to the father. We have not other substitute left, that could carry our sins. Only Jesus was able to do it, because he was the only men, that never sinned.God redeems the lives of those who trust the Lord Jesus Christ. If Jesus had been no more than a man - even a perfect, sinless man - he could not have redeemed more than one sinful human life (based on the Levitical law of a life for a life.) But because Jesus was as fully divine as He was fully human, God was paying for the sins of the whole world on that cross at Calvary. As John the Baptist prophetically said of Jesus,

*"See! The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world."*

 So the bible is very clear about this :

Hebrews 9:27:

* "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." *

He was the only one who could honestly say:

* “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will 
never die”*

 (John 11:25-26). 

God sacrificed His only Son, who died in our place, so that whoever believes in Him would not perish, but have eternal life. Only the One who conquered death and lives forever can assure us of eternal life.

*“How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation...?*

 (Heb 2:3).

God promises in His Word: 

*“Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved”*

 (Romans 10:13)



> The holy scripture of each religion do appear to 'tell another story' but do you not think this may be down to differant cultures?



the point is, they do not teach Jesus as the only way to God the father. 
Their stories are completely different. What is interesting : almost all religions preach, YOU need to make good deeds, to be saved. That is something natural, and encounters to our very nature and understanding. But the message of the bible is unique : We cannot save ourself through goodness, because nobody of us is good enough. We can be saved only through faith in Jesus Christ. We are not saved through good deeds, but that we would do them as guesture of gratitude for our salvation. 

Ephesians 2:8

*For by grace you are saved 19  through faith, 20  and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not from 21  works, so that no one can boast. 22  2:10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them. 23 *



> In all likelyhood the truth is that as long a respect is shown it does not matter what your culture says is respectful or not, As I say window dressing.



Well, the bible is quit clear. There are not many saviors, only Jesus Christ. Only in his name we can find forgiveness for sins, and eternal life. 



> I would answer that there is not one iota of existance within which God does not reside, yes that means you and all that lives.  Of course then to truely love God we must love each other.



I believe God is the creator and sustainer of all creation, and he transcends creation, but he is as spirit a separate entity of creation. 



> Think for a second of your own culture's fairy tales, or there eqilivilant.A fairy tale can be likend to a Biblical parable in that each contains some moral to be taken or learnt.  How many kinds ot tale an YOU think of which attempts the teach the same morality?  Does it not then make perfect sense that God would provide teachings understandable by differing cultures, or do you subscribe to the theory of a choosen peoples?



God has asked his children to go all over the world, to preach the gospel. I think that is Gods choosen way to reach the world, and to save whoever reacts positively to his call for salvation. I don't think God uses other stories of other cultures to do that. 



> Forget the window dressing of each set of holy scriputre and instead ask whichever teacher you follow for Gods truth.



My teacher is Gods holy word, the bible. 



> God says, love your God with all of your heart and your soul and your mind, and love the entirity of Gods creation as you would love your God, as most inevitably there exists not one iota of the creatuion that lacks God's presenace.
> 
> Again I would ask if you agree or disagree with this?



*" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'*

that doesnt include creation as a whole.


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## Lee (Aug 4, 2010)

Kairos said:


> no. its about wheter you believe in Jesus, or not. wheter it was true what he said, namely being the only way to the father, or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Kairos Ji,

Again all that you say is down to individual interpretation of scripture.

Let us remind ourselves that it is in fact common knowldge that the words contained in each and every modern day bible, are not the same as contained in the original works.

King James, changed swaythes of it to suit his own needs.  Have you studied the original langue of the Bible?

Can you be 100% certian that Jesus said 'I am the only way' for example, or do you rely on others translations of the original text?


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Lee said:


> Kairos Ji,
> 
> Again all that you say is down to individual interpretation of scripture.



i don't think so. The text is clear enough in a way, that there are only two possibilities : wheter you believe , Jesus is who he claims to be,  or you don't. 

Wheter you believe, Jesus Christ is the only way to the father, or he isnt. 



> Let us remind ourselves that it is in fact common knowldge that the words contained in each and every modern day bible, are not the same as contained in the original works.



we have thousands of manuscripts, which are dated very close to the date of the events. We can compare them. And we can know, we have very accurate translations. So this argument is really not a escape. 



> Can you be 100% certian that Jesus said 'I am the only way' for example, or do you rely on others translations of the original text?



there is absolutely no doubt about that. You can use even a interlinear bible, with a direct translation of the greek text to english ;

http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/passage.aspx?q=john+14&t=kjv


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 4, 2010)

Kairos has shown that blind faith makes people blind because TRUTH needs no faith nor any belief. Truth stands on its own.

But I must commend him to keep on insisting about his BLIND FAITH. 

If he believes in the "Truth" of the Bible then he must understand these verses which shows his God not being a very good entity but to the contrary, a murderer and a rapist:

*Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will thrust  you through, smash your children to pieces before your eyes, and rape your  wife.

Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and  friends eat each other.

* These are just two verses out of many in the Bible which shows how ruthless and immoral this God is. 

One can only wish him/her the best in search of the truth.

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kairos has shown that blind faith makes people blind because TRUTH needs no faith nor any belief. Truth stands on its own.



It depends what truth you talk about.....



> But I must commend him to keep on insisting about his BLIND FAITH.



why do you think my faith is blind ?  And what makes you think, yours is not ? 
What differentiates us ? 




> *Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will thrust  you through, smash your children to pieces before your eyes, and rape your  wife.*


*

before you make a prejudgement, you should understand the context, and the reason this was written. 

http://www.bibletrack.org/cgi-bin/bible.pl?incr=0&mo=9&dy=20

this oracle was the expression of wish and sentiment of the jews against the babylonians in reason of their deportation to babylon and bad treatment. 




			Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and  friends eat each other.
		
Click to expand...


The Jews had been doing a lot of pagan sacrificing - even human. This was God's just response and judgement  to such sick behavior, and didn't happen from one day to the other. God was adverting the Jews a long time, until time for judgement was coming, it was simply enough. 

a interesting study :

http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/jeremiah/the-potter-and-the-clay

*


> These are just two verses out of many in the Bible which shows how ruthless and immoral this God is.



only someone, that has no knowledge of the background, and the scriptures as a whole, makes such a judgement.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 4, 2010)

"only someone, that has no knowledge of the background, and the scriptures as a whole, makes such a judgement."

Dear Kairos Ji
Your defence is weak 

You can scrutinise the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as much as you want and you would not find such references

How someone chooses to interpret these verses is no more than that...their interpretation

The Bible as written originally did not have such commentary 

So you can try and justify it 

Personally, I think these sort of verses display the sentiments of the writer and not the one true God you claim to follow


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> "
> 
> How someone chooses to interpret these verses is no more than that...their interpretation



the better someone knows the background the better he can interprete and understand  the scriptures. Something, it seems your friend is weak at. 




> The Bible as written originally did not have such commentary



of course, its upon us to study the bible, and to understand what was written, based on the context. 



> Personally, I think these sort of verses display the sentiments of the writer and not the one true God you claim to follow



the bible does always take into account the personality of the writer, and his sentiments. In case of the verses in Jesajas, what he wrote, were just his sentiments and wishes based on the deplorable situation. 

In case of Jeremia, what he prophetized, happened afterwards.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 4, 2010)

_


Kairos said:



			the better someone knows the background the better he can interprete and understand  the scriptures. Something, it seems your friend is weak at.
		
Click to expand...

_


Kairos said:


> No. If these scriptures are, as you have said earlier in this thread, the Word of God and the Word of God is infallible, then such interpretation is unnecessary
> 
> Re Tejwant Singh Ji's commentary, I would say this and his earlier posts have been absolutely spot on. And he has frequently demonstrated a deeper knowledge and understanding of the Bible than the defenders of the faith who grace this forum!
> 
> ...



And when was that written in relation to the actual event? I do hope this isn't another convenient self-fulfilling prophecy as written by the author


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> And when was that written in relation to the actual event? I do hope this isn't another convenient self-fulfilling prophecy as written by the author



it happened not much time afterwards. 

http://www.bibletrack.org/cgi-bin/bible.pl?incr=0&mo=11&dy=14#Tough

Nebuchadnezzar's army simply surrounded the city of Jerusalem, and over a period of 18 months they ran out of food according to Jeremiah 52:4-6 (see notes). Add to that a drought, and we see unbearable conditions in Jerusalem. Notice verse 4, "The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them." Imprisoned in Jerusalem without food - the babies were starving for nourishment. And then...the unthinkable in verse 10, "The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people." That's right - cannibalism right there in Jerusalem. As a matter of fact, everyone suffered the same discomfort prior to their fall due to this starvation tactic used by the Babylonians - even the leadership. Verses 7-8 indicate that the appearance of the leaders of Jerusalem (Hebrew: "naziyr" i.e. consecrated ones, translated in the KJV as Nazarites) were visibly malnourished and poorly groomed.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 4, 2010)

Kairos said:


> It depends what truth you talk about.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am glad Kairos agrees that  the God he serves is a rapist and a murderer of babies. Furthermore, he condones and justifies why the God he serves is a rapist and a murderer. How interesting and what a shame!


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I am glad Kairos agrees that  the God he serves is a rapist and a murderer of babies. Furthermore, he condones and justifies why the God he serves is a rapist and a murderer. How interesting and what a shame!




if that is the conclusion you draw, after a carefully study of the facts, shall it be. I think any unbiased person, which will examine the facts without preconceptions, will draw a other picture, and come to other conclusions.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 4, 2010)

My post:

 					Originally Posted by *Tejwant Singh* 

 
_I  am glad Kairos agrees that  the God he serves is a rapist and a  murderer of babies. Furthermore, he condones and justifies why the God  he serves is a rapist and a murderer. How interesting and what a shame!_



Kairos said:


> if that is the conclusion you draw, after a carefully study of the facts, shall it be. I think any unbiased person, which will examine the facts without preconceptions, will draw a other picture, and come to other conclusions.



Kairos fails to understand that facts speak for themselves. It would help if he checked the  meaning of "conclusion" in a dictionary which has nothing to do  with the facts and facts are stated very clearly in the Bible.

If one has to justify for the atrocities and barbarities committed by the God one serves then it proves one more thing that this God can not be anything but a fiend rather than loving.  

It is sad to notice that Kairos embraces this kind of brutality rather than condemning it vehemently.


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> My post:
> 
> Originally Posted by *Tejwant Singh*
> 
> ...



As said. study the historical context of the facts, why God judged the jews, why the Babylonians invaded Israel and deported the jews to babylon. Than you might understand better. God punishes sin, and the jews did fall in deep sin and did not repent from their ways, despite God  sent messengers, prophets, to warn them, and to leave their idols, magics, offerings of their own babies, which they burned as offerings to pagan deities, etc. When the cup was full, God punished them, permitted them to go through suffering, as they did. Long before this happened, God warned them and asked them to return from their ill ways. 

in Hesekiel  18:30 God said to the jews :

 “Therefore I will judge each person according to his conduct, 35  O house of Israel, declares the sovereign Lord. Repent 36  and turn from all your wickedness; then it will not be an obstacle leading to iniquity. 37  18:31 Throw away all your sins you have committed and fashion yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! 38  Why should you die, O house of Israel? 18:32 For I take no delight in the death of anyone, 39  declares the sovereign Lord. Repent and live!


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 4, 2010)

Kairos said:


> As said. study the historical context of the facts, why God judged the jews, why the Babylonians invaded Israel and deported the jews to babylon. Than you might understand better. God punishes sin, and the jews did fall in deep sin and did not repent from their ways, despite God  sent messengers, prophets, to warn them, and to leave their idols, magics, offerings of their own babies, which they burned as offerings to pagan deities, etc. When the cup was full, God punished them, permitted them to go through suffering, as they did. Long before this happened, God warned them and asked them to return from their ill ways.
> 
> in Hesekiel  18:30 God said to the jews :
> 
> “Therefore I will judge each person according to his conduct, 35  O house of Israel, declares the sovereign Lord. Repent 36  and turn from all your wickedness; then it will not be an obstacle leading to iniquity. 37  18:31 Throw away all your sins you have committed and fashion yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! 38  Why should you die, O house of Israel? 18:32 For I take no delight in the death of anyone, 39  declares the sovereign Lord. Repent and live!



Your above one more justification states that the God whom you call omnipotent made people do these things. In other words, the rapist and the murderer God you serve is himself the instigator of all the crimes committed. You keep on proving my point about your fiendish God.

Secondly, Hesekiel said all that. I had no idea Hesekiel was your God. Give us some details about him and when and why he wrote this and why did he play your God?

 Anyone can pretend to be God to justify the rapes and the murders. What a shame that you embrace this kind of immorality in your God!

Lastly, repentance is only needed where love is absent.


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## Kairos (Aug 4, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Your above one more justification states that the God whom you call omnipotent



Omnipotence and “all powerful” are incorrect words to use when encompassing all possibilities of illogical or self-contradicting occurances.



> made people do these things. In other words, the rapist and the murderer God you serve is himself the instigator of all the crimes committed. You keep on proving my point about your fiendish God.



You continue not aknowledging the reasons of these judgements , when it says in Jeremiah 19 versicle 15 :

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words."

http://hubpages.com/hub/God-Judges-Sin

God is the Creator, and the whole creation is responsive to God. By His rights as Creator He can do whatever He wills with all people and all things He has created. Good is not capricious (impulsive, irrational) in the use of His power, and He can do no evil, but He has the absolute right to rule as judge over His creatures, to reward righteousness and punish evil as He sees fit.

When people deny God is the creator, there is doubtlessly involved in this a deep seated desire to be free from the accountability to God. God is the creator, we are accountable to Him, and He has the right to tell us what is right and wrong and also to judge us for wrongdoing.



> Secondly, Hesekiel said all that. I had no idea Hesekiel was your God.



Hesekiel was a prophet, which wrote and adverted Israel in Gods name. 



> Give us some details about him and when and why he wrote this and why did he play your God?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel

Ezekiel was a prophet, the son of Buzi. He was one of the Israelite exiles who settled at a place called Tel-abib (mound of the deluge), on the banks of the Chebar River "in the land of the Chaldeans."[1] Traditionally, the book is thought to have been written in the 500s BC during the Babylonian exile of the southern Israelite kingdom, Judah. This estimate is supported by evidence that the author uses a dating system which was only used in the 500s BC


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 4, 2010)

Kairos said:


> *Omnipotence and “all powerful” are incorrect words to use when encompassing all possibilities of illogical or self-contradicting occurances.*
> 
> You continue not aknowledging the reasons of these judgements , when it says in Jeremiah 19 versicle 15 :
> 
> ...



Do you deny that your God is omnipotent? Please respond in yes or no.

If your God is not omnipotent then He is a weakling mortal like anyone else. Thanks for clarifying that.

Talking about Ezekiel:
*
GOD created perfect EVIL. (Ezekiel 28:15)

**GOD said to the  others. Follow Him through the city and kill, without showing pity or  compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children.  (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

*What a shame that this kind of evil,rapist and murderer God you serve and these are the facts mentioned in the Bible.


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Do you deny that your God is omnipotent? Please respond in yes or no.



In Christianity we have this statement regarding God being able to create a rock too big to move, or this sort of thing. “Nonsense is nonsense, even when you try to apply it to God.”Omnibenevolence and “all loving” are also incorrect words to try to apply to our Holy Creator. God does not love satan nor his demons, for example. Omniscience and Omnipresence are accurate words which do not encompass meanings which result in hyper-technical contradiction.



> If your God is not omnipotent then He is a weakling mortal like anyone else. Thanks for clarifying that.



please dont put words in my mouth. 



> Talking about Ezekiel:
> *
> GOD created perfect EVIL. (Ezekiel 28:15)
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

if you truly want to learn about the God i serve, i suggest you clarify your doubts through knowledgeable sources, which explain the bible in a clear way, which you can understand :

http://www.bibletrack.org/

otherwise we can go on and on, and it will not lead to anything, anyway. 

I have already observed, you have a hostile attitude towards the God of the bible, and i don't think by clarifying your questions, you will change your opinion.


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## spnadmin (Aug 5, 2010)

Kairos ji

Forum member Tejwant ji is not expressing his hostile attitude. All he is doing is listing over several posts examples of hostility, aggression and animosity expressed by the god depicted in the Hebrew Testament from which the god of the Christian Testament is derived. 

Now the god of the Christian Testament is alleged to evolved to a god of love - for he so loved that he gave his son etc. He so loved creation that he gave is son to be crucified, die an horrific death, because of his love for a humanity that he still considered to be sinful. So this new god of the Christians, who does not appear to have evolved at all from a god of anger to a god of love,  is still indulging in human sacrifice at the hands of the Jews and Romans for a personal objective.

And today when there are catastrophic events visited by humans on each other, such as war, terrorism, and state sponsored starvation and persecution, there is a fanatical Christian somewhere in the news who will declare this to be his/her god's punishment for sin. More human sacrifice for divine retribution. The hostile entity appears to be this god, and many of his followers who feel empowered by him, not an SPN forum member.

Can you not see how members of non Abrahamic traditions find this to be a god of anger and retribution, and a stunning contradiction?


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 5, 2010)

> Kairos;131025]In Christianity we have this statement regarding God being able to create a rock too big to move, or this sort of thing. “Nonsense is nonsense, even when you try to apply it to God.”Omnibenevolence and “all loving” are also incorrect words to try to apply to our Holy Creator. God does not love satan nor his demons, for example. Omniscience and Omnipresence are accurate words which do not encompass meanings which result in hyper-technical contradiction.



Once again, you have dodged the question and hence not being truthful which shows that your belief teaches you how not to be honest and truthful. You have become very good at dodging things when asked direct questions. 

Let me ask you again.

Is the God you serve omnipotent or not?

Please respond in a yes or no manner.




> if you truly want to learn about the God i serve, i suggest you clarify your doubts through knowledgeable sources, which explain the bible in a clear way, which you can understand :
> 
> http://www.bibletrack.org/
> 
> otherwise we can go on and on, and it will not lead to anything, anyway.



Your above statement shows nothing but arrogance on your part. As mentioned before, I am very well versed in the OT and NT from where your religion is derived. Hence, I ask these questions to you which you dodge and arrogantly tell me to study. It is hillarious to say the least.

It is a shame to see that you have preconceived notion about me. You claim to know more about others than about yourself.A typical pious Christian you are.



> I have already observed, you have a hostile attitude towards the God of the bible, and i don't think by clarifying your questions, you will change your opinion.



You have shown many of your non-Christian characteristics but I never thought that you would  also show this one, that is to be a liar.

How can I be hostile towards the God of the Bible when the Bible says that the God you serve is evil,rapist and a murderer?

So, who is hostile here? Please be truthful this time.

 It makes no sense but it is easy to blame others. I think it  is you who needs to read your own scriptures in an honest and with an open mind, otherwise you will keep on justifying the rapes and the murders committed by your  God.

I have quoted the verses from your Bible. I did not make up anything as you have been doing in your posts  to me and to others. If you claim that the Bible is hostile, then be honest enough and say so.

It seems that you are just angry and frustrated because you came to this forum with an agenda and when challenged about the verses regarding your own Evil, Rapist, Murderer God,you  dodged the questions and then accused me of being hostile.

We can both learn from each other, provided you are honest which you have not been. You do not even know the difference between facts which are objective and conclusions which are subjective. Many people can come to different conclusions with their subjectivity but facts do not change. That was the reason I asked you to consult the English dictionary which you failed to do and kept mum about it.

So, if you want to learn anything about Sikhi, please do not hesitate to ask any questions and we will do our best to respond.

And also if you want to share your faith, then be prepared to be honest and respond the questions in an honest manner.

Narayanjot ji's posts sums it all up and I thank her for that.

I hope to get the responses from you as Jesus would and did when he was asked, in an honest manner.

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Kairos ji
> 
> Forum member Tejwant ji is not expressing his hostile attitude. All he is doing is listing over several posts examples of hostility, aggression and animosity expressed by the god depicted in the Hebrew Testament from which the god of the Christian Testament is derived.



the God of the Old Testament, is the same God of the New Testament. 
It has pointed out already,  God does not let sin unpunished. 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...mmit-atrocities-in-the-old-testament-t148.htm

These stories offend our moral sensibilities. Ironically, however, the moral sensibilities in the West have been largely, and for many people unconsciously, shaped by our Judaeo-Christian heritage, which has taught us the intrinsic value of human beings, the importance of dealing justly rather than capriciously, and the necessity of the punishment’s fitting the crime. The Bible itself inculcates the values which these stories seem to violate.



> Now the god of the Christian Testament is alleged to evolved to a god of love - for he so loved that he gave his son etc. He so loved creation that he gave is son to be crucified, die an horrific death, because of his love for a humanity that he still considered to be sinful. So this new god of the Christians, who does not appear to have evolved at all from a god of anger to a god of love,  is still indulging in human sacrifice at the hands of the Jews and Romans for a personal objective.



The God of anger is the same God of love. God is justice, and he does not leave unpunished crimes and sins. We will all be judged according to our lifes. 
But God is love as well. He does not want that anyone perishes, but that we shall live. For this reason, he send Jesus , to pay as substitute for the sins of all humanity, and all that put their faith in him, will be saved. 




> And today when there are catastrophic events visited by humans on each other, such as war, terrorism, and state sponsored starvation and persecution, there is a fanatical Christian somewhere in the news who will declare this to be his/her god's punishment for sin.



God cannot be blamed, if people do commit crimes in his name. Beside this, terrorism today is more atributed to muslim radicals, that christians. 



> Can you not see how members of non Abrahamic traditions find this to be a god of anger and retribution, and a stunning contradiction?



I repeat again : Gods sense of justice doesnt leave the guilt one unpunished. 

If you want to understand more, have a read here :

http://www.2pi.info/bible/plan/GodsJustice/GodandJustice.html


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Once again, you have dodged the question and hence not being truthful which shows that your belief teaches you how not to be honest and truthful. You have become very good at dodging things when asked direct questions.
> 
> Let me ask you again.
> 
> ...



You are accusing me of many things, amongst them, that i am a liar. I think you will not desire to spend your precious time to share and discuss different issues with someone, that you call and consider a liar. You would not learn anything. Therefore, i think our discussion should have a end here.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 5, 2010)

Kairos said:


> You are accusing me of many things, amongst them, that i am a liar. I think you will not desire to spend your precious time to share and discuss different issues with someone, that you call and consider a liar. You would not learn anything. Therefore, i think our discussion should have a end here.



I knew you would not be able to respond to any of the questions asked about your own blind faith/belief.

Now, if you want to know anything about Sikhi, please feel free to do that but no more of your Christian agenda will be accepted here.

FYI, Sikhi is neither a faith nor a belief system because it is not based on dogmas like Hell and Heaven as Christianity and many other religions are. 

Sikh, meaning a student, a learner, a seeker is open minded because SGGS, our only Guru-Teacher gives us the tools how to be pragmatists rather than dogmatic.

Enjoy your journey which ever path you choose but never undermine others' paths by claiming that yours is the only way because you say so. It shows nothing but makes your only "God" some insecure entity.

Sikhi respects all religions. Become a better Christian by loving all humanity irrespective of their hue,creed or faith.

If you can not see God in ALL, then you can not see God at all.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Now, if you want to know anything about Sikhi, please feel free to do that but no more of your Christian agenda will be accepted here.



are you the moderator/owner of this forum ? if not, based on what authority are you asking me this ?


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 5, 2010)

Kairos said:


> are you the moderator/owner of this forum ? if not, based on what authority are you asking me this ?



No, I am not. I am just a member. What I meant was that you will be questioned about any nonsense you post from now on. I kept quiet for a long time and let you babble. It is not going to happen anymore. 

This is the reason I asked you to respond to my questions about your faith so we can learn from each other. But you refused and your Christian agenda will not be tolerated and I will participate actively from now on.

So, you better watch what you post. It is easy to copy and paste websites rather than sharing your own thought process provided one has been able to cultivate it. Sikhi  is not about parroting.


Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> No, I am not. I am just a member.



In this case, its not your job to tell me, what is , and what is not accepted at this forum. You could learn from me, if you would be open minded, and behave in a respectful manner. Its not the case, therefore, its better you search someone else, you can behave the way you do.


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## ugsbay (Aug 5, 2010)

SSA.
kairos Ji, in my opinion your God from the bible seems a very jealous God, Jealous, Violent, Sexist, Racist and i can carry on. Yes i have read the bible OT & NT. You came into this forum claiming you wanted to learn about Sikhism yet on the same note proclaiming your God is the only God. Its seems like schoolground behaviour where one kid says my dad can beat up your dad lol.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 5, 2010)

My Dear Fellow "SPNers"

Can I lend my support to the last few posts from Tejwant Singh Ji, Ugsbay Ji and Naryanjot Kaur Ji

I find it remarkable how people come here to proclaim that theirs' is the the only true faith and how they then engage in circular reasoning to justify their beliefs...like Bible prophecy...interesting how these "prophecies" were written after the actual events occurred!

Or trying to prove the integrity of something using the thing to be proved as the source of its own proof....

Then they blatantly ignore the fact that over time, bits have been added, taken away, translated and edited upteen times etc etc....need I go on???

If someone is on a particular path and are happy there, then that's fine. But don't try and sell it as the true way to others .... and if you do, then don't be surprised if you get some robust challenges!


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> I find it remarkable how people come here to proclaim that theirs' is the the only true faith



you might notice, that its not ME to say Jesus Christ is the only way to God the father, but its actually the bible. I just confess what i believe, namely that what the bible tells its true. 



> and how they then engage in circular reasoning to justify their beliefs...like Bible prophecy...interesting how these "prophecies" were written after the actual events occurred!



what is your evidence to make this claim ?



> Or trying to prove the integrity of something using the thing to be proved as the source of its own proof....



I dont need the bible to show, its related facts are true, are history. Just examine the archaeological and extra biblical historic record, and you will understand, that the bible is absolutely trustworthy. 

Archeology proves the historicity of the bible is true 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...the-historicity-of-the-bible-is-true-t190.htm



> Then they blatantly ignore the fact that over time, bits have been added, taken away, translated and edited upteen times etc etc....need I go on???



Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit testifies the Bible is true

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...-exhibit-testifies-the-bible-is-true-t282.htm

Are the bible translations accurate and trustworthy ?

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...ranslations-accurate-and-trustworthy-t258.htm



> If someone is on a particular path and are happy there, then that's fine. But don't try and sell it as the true way to others ....



this is a section of interfaith dialogues. Than you should expect, that people of other faiths/beliefs come, and present, what they believe in. If you do not like to know my faith better, than nobody is obliging you to stay here at this thread. 



> and if you do, then don't be surprised if you get some robust challenges!



I am more than happy to elucidate my faith to anyone, which is truly interested, without prejudgement, with the only goal to condemn my faith, and the bible, and this , in a disrespectful manner.


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## spnadmin (Aug 5, 2010)

Seeker9 

Yes when one proclaims the "truth" in any forum one should expect challenges from skeptics and nonbelievers. When one proclaims a Christian "truth" on a Sikh forum one should expect challenges from Sikhs. Your critique of a circular argument is a good one. And it to this point serves as a logical refutation of all we have read of the Christian truth on this thread. 

I would also like to add that the bafflement expressed so far by you, Tejwant ji, ugsbay ji, and me in no way suggest we did not get the idea that the Christian God punishes "sin" as he/Christians define it. 

Karios ji, We get it. We can read. We are asking rather, Why should anyone accept the truth or the "love" of a violent parent or spouse who is given to exacting tribute in the most angry ways? Why pledge one's trust in a protector and supporter who is emotionally unstable and given to mood swings? Likewise why choose such a god? An all powerful creator, supporter, protector, it seems, would be beyond emotional excesses, and mood swings. 

And in knowing His Own omnipotence completely then why would he punish sin?  He would understand the limitations of His Creation, and offer something other than revenge and spiteful retribution when his wishes were not carried out. 

And insofar as He is the Creator of Everything, how could His wishes not be carried out? Why would He be angry at all? What happens is all His Will. Nothing happens outside of that. If anything did happen outside of the oribt if His Omnipotence, He would not be Omnipotent. And He would be wasting time getting angry at Himself. 

Note: I use He to equal Ik Oankaar:  One  doer of everything, who is  eternal truth/reality, who is Self-existent and complete within Himself, who is without hatred or enmity, because he has no need for hatred  nor enmity, who is beyond time , is formless and is self-created. He has no need to punish sin.


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Why should anyone accept the truth or the "love" of a violent parent or spouse who is given to exacting tribute in the most angry ways?



the God i know, is mercyful, as written :

Isajah 55:6 Seek the Lord while he makes himself available; 16 
call to him while he is nearby!
55:7 The wicked need to abandon their lifestyle 17 
and sinful people their plans. 18 
They should return 19  to the Lord, and he will show mercy to them, 20 
and to their God, for he will freely forgive them. 21 
55:8 “Indeed, 22  my plans 23  are not like 24  your plans,
and my deeds 25  are not like 26  your deeds,
55:9 for just as the sky 27  is higher than the earth,
so my deeds 28  are superior to 29  your deeds
and my plans 30  superior to your plans.

If God is love, he cannot accept desctructive, egoistic, sinful, violent and criminal behavior. God's anger, and God's love , are truly two sides of the same medal. Also, if God truly loves us, he cannot either admit, that his love is dismissed and rejected. Otherwise, he would accept that his wish to give us a fullfilled and happy life, would be a failure , and not be accomplished.  God truly suffers, when is love is being rejected. Gods love is also expressed in the prophecy in the book of jesaja, about the coming of the messiah, which would take upon him the suffering of all of us ( this was written 700bC) :

53:1 Who would have believed 1  what we 2  just heard? 3 
When 4  was the Lord’s power 5  revealed through him?
53:2 He sprouted up like a twig before God, 6 
like a root out of parched soil; 7 
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention, 8 
no special appearance that we should want to follow him. 9 
53:3 He was despised and rejected by people, 10 
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him; 11 
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant. 12 
53:4 But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain; 13 
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done. 14 
53:5 He was wounded because of 15  our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well; 16 
because of his wounds we have been healed. 17 
53:6 All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him. 18 
53:7 He was treated harshly and afflicted, 19 
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth. 20 
53:8 He was led away after an unjust trial 21  –
but who even cared? 22 
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living; 23 
because of the rebellion of his own 24  people he was wounded.
53:9 They intended to bury him with criminals, 25 
but he ended up in a rich man’s tomb, 26 
because 27  he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
53:10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made, 28 
he will see descendants and enjoy long life, 29 
and the Lord’s purpose will be accomplished through him.
53:11 Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. 30 
“My servant 31  will acquit many, 32 
for he carried their sins. 33 
53:12 So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes, 34 
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful, 35 
because he willingly submitted 36  to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened 37  on behalf of the rebels.”



> Likewise why choose this god?



I choose him, because i believe the God of the bible is the ONLY true living God. 



> What happens is all His Will.



Of course not. God has given us a free will. So we can act in accordance with his will, or against it. Love is only possible, if true free will and freedom exists. Otherwise, we would act like robots, programmed to do always the will of God. 



> Nothing happens outside of that. If anything did, He would not be Omnipotent. And would be wasting time getting angry at Himself.



God has choosen freely to give up until a certain point his omnipotence, and gave us free will. He respects it, to make true love possible.


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## spnadmin (Aug 5, 2010)

Kairos ji

you said [If God is love, he cannot accept desctructive, egoistic, sinful, violent and criminal behavior. God's anger, and God's love , are truly two sides of the same medal. Also, if God truly loves us, he cannot either admit, that his love is dismissed and rejected. Otherwise, he would accept that his wish to give us a fullfilled and happy life, would be a failure , and not be accomplished. God truly suffers, when is love is being rejected. Gods love is also expressed in the prophecy in the book of jesaja, about the coming of the messiah, which would take upon him the suffering of all of us ( this was written 700bC) ]


My observation from the above paragraph is that at least since 700 BC humans have been projecting the syndrome of human emotions, and particularly the syndrome of a love hate relationship, which comes from a human fear of dependency and helplessness, onto an image of God. Thus it is God who is made by humans to seem as if he suffers from ambivalence, in spite of the fact that an Omnipotent God would not suffer at all. Why would an Omnipotent Power suffer? Some Sikhs scholars would explain the above paragraph as evidence of the essential duality of the Human/God connection in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and other Abrahamic religions. In that view, humans make God into their image. Since these are patriarchal societies they even make God into a powerful and violent father figure who has a need to impose his will and seek retribution when his will is defied. In the most barbaric ways.

If God is omnipotent, neither male nor female, having no beginning nor end, what need is there for all this drama? If God's anger and love are two sides of the same coin, as you say, then he is a creature of his own emotions. If God is affected adversely by the rejection of his love, then he is not offering love but emotional blackmail. It is hard for a Sikh to see any divinity in the psychological profile you have just presented.

The question of free will is a good one. What kind of free will is it that humans have if they can expect retribution if they use it and don't come up with the "right" answer according to an emotionally needy god? Rather what you have portrayed is what we now diagnose as a narcissistic personality disorder. I know that Christianity can do   better than that.


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> My observation from the above paragraph is that at least since 700 BC humans have been projecting the syndrome of human emotions, and particularly the syndrome of a love hate relationship, which comes from a human fear of dependency and helplessness, onto an image of God. Thus it is God who is made by humans to seem as if he suffers from ambivalence, in spite of the fact that an Omnipotent God would not suffer at all.



http://www.fallenandflawed.com/can-god-suffer/

The Difficult Doctrine That Should Never Be Neglected

To be perfectly honest, the doctrine of God’s impassibility is a difficult doctrine. But you shouldn’t ignore it. A lot hinges on this doctrine. 

First, let’s define impassibility.

To say that God is impassible is to say that God is without passion. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God is “without body, parts, or passions, immutable.” 

What is passion? Passion can be described any powerful feeling or emotion, like joy, grief, hatred or regret.

According to Clark Pinnock, a passionate “God is not cool and collected but is deeply involved and can be wounded.”

But there are serious problems if this is true of God. 

Why We Don’t Want God to Be Passionate

Imagine: God in one hour pulled in one million different directions by things people say and do. If this were true, then God would not be in control of his own mind or moods. 

Furthermore, if this were true, what guarantee do we have that God’s love will be constant? 

God’s stability was Jeremiah’s main argument for trusting in God’s faithfulness. And in Malachi 3:6 God says, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”

God’s consistency should encourage and satisfy us. Because He is always in love with the obedient and always at odds with the wicked, we will never doubt what he thinks about us.

However, nothing in the world can inflict misery or pain on God. Let me show you what I mean.

Biblically, God Can’t Suffer

The Bible teaches that God is the source and will behind all of his affections. All action in the universe springs ultimately from God. 

“He is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.” Acts 17:25 

Passion involves a desire for what is lacking. God lacks nothing. God is an all perfect being, thus lacks nothing and craves nothing. 

But this does not mean that he doesn’t have feelings.

Does This Doctrine Diminish God’s Love? 

God has feelings. The Bible clearly teaches this. For example, God’s spirit is grieved at sin. He hates evil. And God’s jealousy burns with anger against sin.

However, Philip Johnson argues, even though God has these feelings, he’s not a slave to fits of melancholy or bouts of rage:

…Scripture often stresses the constancy of God’s love, the infiniteness of his mercies, the certainty of His promises, the unchangeableness of His mind, and the lack of any fluctuation in His perfections. 

James 1:17 said, God “does not change like shifting shadows.” On the other hand, our feelings toward evil, love, faith, change. 

Which brings me to my next point. 

Never Make This Serious Mistake About God

Whether you like it or not, God is not like you. The Bible says:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 55:8 

Furthermore, you must recognize that you and I cannot fully understand God without adjusting our language. That’s why in order to understand God, we use human language. 

We can learn much from figures of speech, nevertheless God still remains inscrutable. So, what are we to think when God became so angry at Israel that he threatened to wipe the nation out and cancel the covenant with Abraham? 

What we can’t do is make God look like an ogre prone to temper tantrums. It’s a serious mistake to project our passions onto God.

God is not like men. 

Nor can we say that God is removed or aloof. As Johnson explains, it takes a personal God to make this kind of threat.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 5, 2010)

*Christian GOD that Kairos serves:*

*"I am the LORD, your GOD, ...... And ye shall eat the  flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus  26:13,29) *


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## Kairos (Aug 5, 2010)

> A key distinctive feature of Sikhism is a non-anthropomorphic concept of God, to the extent that one can interpret God as the Universe itself (pantheism).



http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...ce-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning-t199.htm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_the_Bi...ngularity_where_did_the_singularity_come_from

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. *Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing.* So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know.

Stephen Hawking writes, “Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.


If God would be the universe, and the universe had a absolute beginning, then God would have had a absolute beginning with the Big Bang. 

 1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its 
existence. 
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its 
existence. that cause was God.

God must therefore be a separate entity of the universe. Pantheismus must therefore be false.


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

Curiously, suddenly, Kairos ji

You give many references in your reply to me as to why God cannot be an tangle of contradictory emotions. Yet there are many quotations from this Bible in which this god is full of emotions. And, you have not replied to a key point. When god is portrayed as emotional these are human emotions. Are not humans projecting their own emotional natures on god in the Bible? Why would an emotional god be worthy of trust? Why would a god who created everything need to punish sin? Why would such a god need anything? The all powerful has everything. 

You evaded another issue. How does this god's gift of free will as you understand free will provide opportunities to prove our love for that god? Why would the loss of love be a concern for an omnipotent being. In Gurbani we have a God who "keeps on giving" in spite of the moral failings of humans, and we keep taking as there can be no way to repay the all powerful who is the source of everything. This love is unconditional.

How does an argument from astrophysics answer my questions? Or have you switched gears?


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> you might notice, that its not ME to say Jesus Christ is the only way to God the father, but its actually the bible. I just confess what i believe, namely that what the bible tells its true.
> 
> So you are using the Bible as the source of its own proof which is my point below. Look back on this thread and see if you can find lots of quotes from our Sikh scriptures. You won't because we can discuss on logic and theology without endless quotes and links to websites. I challenge you to do the same and respond to our queries without linking to a website or wothout quoting from The Bible
> 
> ...


 
We are raising legitimate queries which you have consistently failed to answer convincingly. Again, I challenge you to respond without recourse to quotations and web links


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## Lee (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> i don't think so. The text is clear enough in a way, that there are only two possibilities : wheter you believe , Jesus is who he claims to be, or you don't.
> 
> Wheter you believe, Jesus Christ is the only way to the father, or he isnt.
> 
> ...


 
Kairos ji,

You don't think so?  You don't think that the written word is subject to individual interperation?  The sir your thinking must be wrong.

I do not belive that Jesus is the only way to God, I can't I'm Sikh and that is not what our Guru ji says.
Further even a minimum amount of pondering on the issue informs me that people are differant, we do not all think alike, nor are our cultures the same.  Logicaly then there are perhaps two main conclusions that we can reach.

God has created differant people and differant cultures yet choosen only one peoples or one cultural practive as the only valid way to God.

Or.

God has created each peoples, each culture and each mindset with way to reach God.

I simply do not belive the first is the act of a loving God, and I belive in a loving God.  So the latter must be the better option.

Instead of looking at the diffrances in scripture, and then saying, well this says this and that say that so that must be false and this true.
Look for the simularities and think about why they are there. What are the differances and what are the simularities?

To aid you consider this from a discusion elsewhere about the golden rule:

In Christianity: 

"In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." - Jesus, Matthew 7:12 

In Judaism: 

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary." - Hillel, Talmud, Shabbat 31a 

In Islam: 

"Not one of you truly believes until you wish for others what you wish for yourself." - Muhammad, Hadith 

In the Baha'i Faith: 

"Lay not on any soul a load that you would not wish to be laid upon you, and desire not for anyone the things you would not desire for yourself." - Baha'u'llah, Gleanings 

In Hinduism: 

"This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you." - Mahabharata 5:1517 

In Buddhism: 

"Treat not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5.18 

In Confucianism: 

"One word which sums up the basis of all good conduct... loving kindness. Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself." - Confucius, Analects 15.23 

In Taoism: 

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." - T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien, 213-218 

In Sikhism: 

"I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed, I am a friend to all." - Guru Granth Sahib, pg. 1299 

In Unitarianism: 

"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." - Unitarian principle 

In Native Spirituality: 

"We are as much alive as we keep the earth alive." - Chief Dan George 

In Zoroastrianism: 

"Do not do unto others whatever is injurious to yourself." - Shayast-na-Shayat 13.29 

In Jainism: 

"One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated." - Mahavira, Sutrakritanga


Note particularly the top two.  'This is the law' and 'This is the whole of the Torah'

As I say all religious scripture contianes the same kernal of truth, all of the rest is window dressing.

What is this truth then?

There is one God, who created everthing and is all pervading.  Because of this God requires us to love each other as we would love God.

It's been said time and time and time agian, in many differant ways.  Why many differant ways?  Because there are simply many differant people, with differing intelects, attitudes, belifes and POV.

It makes sense of a loving God does it not?


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## Lee (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> In this case, its not your job to tell me, what is , and what is not accepted at this forum. You could learn from me, if you would be open minded, and behave in a respectful manner. Its not the case, therefore, its better you search someone else, you can behave the way you do.


 

Kairos ji,

Ohhh sir I am bitterly disapointed by this deception of yours, and decepetion it must be as the alternative is simple stupidity, and from your others posts I do not belive you to be a stupid being.

Tejwant ji is clear in his post that he means what he personaly will and will not accept from you.  Which of course he indeed has every right to inform you of.

Did you misunderstand, I cannot belive that?  Did you simply then not bother reading his post?  I can belive this.  Or are you being deceptive?

It is though a known rule here that we do not tolerate proslaytising.  So on that score I thing any member can speak up and remined others of this fact.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Curiously, suddenly, Kairos ji
> 
> You give many references in your reply to me as to why God cannot be an tangle of contradictory emotions. Yet there are many quotations from this Bible in which this god is full of emotions. And, you have not replied to a key point. When god is portrayed as emotional these are human emotions. Are not humans projecting their own emotional natures on god in the Bible?



I think you must respond to yourself, if the God of the bible might be a invented God by humans, or if he is the true living God, which made the heavens, and the earth. All religions invent their own God, by the imagination of their authors. I believe however, its different with the God of the bible. One clear sign is : by almost all religions, salvation is due to the own efforts to live a life with justice and dignity, according to the demands of the respective God. In the bible it is the contrary. We cannot do anything to earn our salvation. Its entirely Gods mercy and love, and Jesus sacrifice at the cross, which saves us, the only thing God demands us to do, is to believe in Jesus Christ as our lord and savior, and put all our confidence in him, and, as a consequence of our conversion, we start to live a new life according to Gods will. The description of God in the bible is made in a way, we could understand him. In reality, God is completely beyond our comprehension and imagination, therefore any words could ever portray him justly, the way he really is. The words used by the authors in the bible are far from really be capable of doing this, but even with their rudimentary words, they give us a idea. 



> Why would an emotional god be worthy of trust?



http://www.gotquestions.org/trust-God.html

The main reason we should trust God is that He is worthy of our trust. Unlike men, He never lies and never fails to fulfill His promises. “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” (Numbers 23:19; Psalm 89:34). Unlike men, He has the power to bring to pass what He plans and purposes to do. Isaiah 14:24 tells us, “The LORD Almighty has sworn, ‘Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.’” Furthermore, His plans are perfect, holy, and righteous, and He works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His holy purpose (Romans 8:28). If we endeavor to know God through His Word, we will see that He is worthy of our trust, and our trust in Him will grow day by day. To know Him is to trust Him.

We can learn to trust God as we see how He has proven Himself to be trustworthy in our lives and the lives of others. In 1 Kings 8:56, we read, “Praise be to the LORD, who has given rest to his people Israel just as he promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises he gave through his servant Moses.” The record of God’s promises is there in His Word for all to see, as is the record of their fulfillment. Historical documents verify those events and speak of God’s faithfulness to His people. Every Christian can give personal testimony to God’s trustworthiness as we see His work in our lives, fulfilling His promises to save our souls and use us for His purposes (Ephesians 2:8-10) and comfort us with the peace that passes all understanding as we run the race He has planned out for us (Philippians 4:6-7; Hebrews 12:1). The more we experience His grace, faithfulness, and goodness, the more we trust Him (Psalm 100:5; Isaiah 25:1).

A third reason to trust God is that we really have no sensible alternative. Should we trust in ourselves or in others who are sinful, unpredictable, unreliable, have limited wisdom, and who frequently make bad choices and decisions swayed by emotion? Or do we trust in the all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful, gracious, merciful, loving God who has nothing but good intentions for us? The choice should be obvious, but we fail to trust God because we don’t know Him. As stated before, we cannot hope to trust in someone who is essentially a stranger to us, but that is easily remedied. God has not made Himself difficult to find or know. All we need to know about God, He has graciously made available to us in the Bible, His holy Word to His people. To know God is to trust Him.




> Why would a god who created everything need to punish sin?



http://www.gotquestions.org/God-punish-sin.html

In order to answer this question, we first need to distinguish between punishment and discipline. For believers in Jesus, all our sin – past, present and future – has already been punished on the cross. As Christians, we will never be punished for sin. That was done once for all. “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Because of the sacrifice of Christ, God sees only the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us. Our sin has been nailed to the cross with Jesus, and we will never be punished for it.

The sin that remains in our lives, however, does sometimes require God’s discipline. If we continue to act in sinful ways and we do not repent and turn from that sin, God brings His divine discipline to bear upon us. If He did not, He would not be a loving and concerned Father. Just as we discipline our own children for their welfare, so does our heavenly Father lovingly correct His children for their benefit. Hebrews 12:7-13 tells us, "As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who was never disciplined? If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children after all. Since we respect our earthly fathers who disciplined us, should we not all the more cheerfully submit to the discipline of our heavenly Father and live forever? For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's discipline is always right and good for us because it means we will share in his holiness. No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening--it is painful! But afterward there will be a quiet harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.”

Discipline, then, is how God lovingly turns His children from rebellion to obedience. Through discipline our eyes are opened more clearly to God's perspective on our lives. As King David stated in Psalm 32, discipline causes us to confess and repent of sin we have not yet dealt with. In this way discipline is cleansing. It is also a growth catalyst. The more we know about God, the more we know about His desires for our lives. Discipline presents us with the opportunity to learn and to conform ourselves to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2). Discipline is a good thing!

We need to remember that sin is a constant in our lives while we are yet on this earth (Romans 3:10, 23). And as such, we not only have to deal with God's discipline for our disobedience, but we also have to deal with the natural consequences resulting from sin. If a believer steals something, God will forgive him and cleanse him from the sin of theft, restoring fellowship between Himself and the repentant thief. However, the societal consequences of theft can be severe, resulting in fines or even jail time. These are natural consequences of sin and must be endured. But God works even through those to increase our faith and glorify Himself.



> Why would such a god need anything? The all powerful has everything.



http://www.gotquestions.org/why-did-God-create-us.html

 The short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” Revelation 4:11 says, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by him and for him.” Being created for God’s pleasure does not mean humanity was made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. As God, He needs nothing. In all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. If we had never existed, God would still be God—the unchanging One (Malachi 3:6). The I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Himself, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The LORD is God; besides him there is no other” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.

Recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and crown him “with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5) and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15). Why did God create us? God created us for His pleasure and so that we, as His creation, would have the pleasure of knowing Him.



> You evaded another issue. How does this god's gift of free will as you understand free will provide opportunities to prove our love for that god?



Our Lord says in John 14:21,

 "He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."

We must prove our love by our obedience! In Acts, the apostle Peter says that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who OBEY Him! And we are to love not only in word or tongue, but in deed and truth!




> Why would the loss of love be a concern for an omnipotent being. In Gurbani we have a God who "keeps on giving" in spite of the moral failings of humans, and we keep taking as there can be no way to repay the all powerful who is the source of everything. This love is unconditional.



 a true relationship is both hand. God loves us, so that we can love him , too. Our God also keeps loving us, even and despite our failings and sins. He is just to forgive us, _when_ ( condition )  we repent , ask for forgiveness, and do our best to leave sin, and do his will.

http://www.acts17-11.com/cows_unlove.html

 God's love is truly amazing... God's love is unilateral: He loves the unlovable and gives His glory to them. God's love is completely undeserved. God's love is unfailing for those in whom He delights: who respond to Him and receive His Son. But, God's love is clearly not "unconditional"; for wrath and eternal damnation will come to those who reject His Messiah and His Gospel. Let us be sure to be found in the position of receiving God's love, and not His judgment. Let us heed the conditions clearly set forth by our Lord so that we can be at peace with Him. And let us shout the message of these conditions from the rooftops so that others might be saved, rather than retreat into thinly veiled license, universalism, or anything else that "sets itself up against the knowledge of God" (2Cor 10:5).


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...ce-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning-t199.htm
> 
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_the_Bi...ngularity_where_did_the_singularity_come_from
> 
> ...


 
Rubbish!

I don't dispute the findings and theories of the physicists you have quoted and for whom I have huge respect

Just your flawed logic

Leading theoretical Physicists have also said that as well as a Big Bang, there could be a Big Crunch where the Universe returns to a singularity and then starts off again through another Big bang resulting in a new Creation 

So under this theory there is then a constant creative process and no beginning and no end to that process or the Creator force controlling that process

Therefore God does not have to be a separate entity from the Universe
Therefore your conclusion is false


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## Lee (Aug 6, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> I don't dispute the findings and theories of the physicists you have quoted and for whom I have huge respect
> 
> ...


 

Heheh this either A or B stuff I have never really understood.  There are loads more letters of the alphabet to choose from what of option C for example.

God is both a part of and seperate from the creation?

Yep this is what I belive.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Lee said:


> Kairos ji,
> 
> You don't think so?  You don't think that the written word is subject to individual interperation?  The sir your thinking must be wrong.



there are things in the bible, which are subject to interpretation. Jesus said, he is the ONLY way to the father. This is NOT subject to interpretation. Or he IS in fact the only way to the father, or he is not. Or you believe, Jesus said the truth, or you don't. There isnt something else to be interpreted. If you don't believe it, you make Jesus a liar. 



> I do not belive that Jesus is the only way to God, I can't I'm Sikh and that is not what our Guru ji says.



you are free to believe your Guru more than Jesus. The quest is, who tells the  truth, who doesnt. Who does use human invention, and who speaks in behalf of the true God. That is up to you to decide, whoom you want to trust more. 
I am firmly convinced, that only Jesus Christ is the way to God the father,no one else. 



> Further even a minimum amount of pondering on the issue informs me that people are differant, we do not all think alike, nor are our cultures the same.  Logicaly then there are perhaps two main conclusions that we can reach.



But absolute truth exists, and it does not change based on cultures. 



> God has created differant people and differant cultures yet choosen only one peoples or one cultural practive as the only valid way to God.



I believe God has choosen the writers of the bible to communicate to us the word of God. And i believe, only Jesus Christ is the way to God the father.




> I simply do not belive the first is the act of a loving God, and I belive in a loving God.  So the latter must be the better option.



And why should God not choose a determined set of people, to use as channel to reveal himself to us ? which were first the biblical authors, and today, all disciples, which do go all over the world, and preach the gospel ? 




> Look for the simularities and think about why they are there. What are the differances and what are the simularities?



As said : If one religon teaches Pantheism, and another one monotheism, both cannot tell the truth. One must be false, the other true. God cannot lie, and deceive us. The truth is one only, not many. 

To aid you consider this from a discusion elsewhere about the golden rule:



> As I say all religious scripture contianes the same kernal of truth, all of the rest is window dressing.



you have presented only one issue of various matters, which are treated through the various religions. When it comes for example to the questi, who God is, and how we can be saved, ask these two questions to all the religions, you mentioned, and as many religions there are, the many different answers you will become. Which one will tell the truth ? certainly not all of them.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> I think you must respond to yourself, if the God of the bible might be a invented God by humans, or if he is the true living God, which made the heavens, and the earth. All religions invent their own God, by the imagination of their authors.
> 
> And we can see in The Bible how those authors have influenced the texts. You yourself noted this in an earlier comment
> 
> ...


 
Most of this post is off track. I did not think we were debating the existence of God as a cocept? Or am I missing something??


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Lee said:


> Heheh this either A or B stuff I have never really understood. There are loads more letters of the alphabet to choose from what of option C for example.
> 
> God is both a part of and seperate from the creation?
> 
> Yep this is what I belive.


 

Hah hah..yep I'm getting a throbbing headache now!!


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> I don't dispute the findings and theories of the physicists you have quoted and for whom I have huge respect
> 
> ...



yeah yeah. The oscillating universe theory. Not new to me. 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...tiong-model-of-the-universe-possible-t119.htm

The oscillating model appears to be physically impossible. For all the talk about such models, the fact seems to be that they are only theoretically, but not physically possible. As the late Professor Tinsley of Yale explains, in oscillating models "even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, there is no known physics to reverse the collapse and bounce back to a new expansion. The physics seems to say that those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, then end."[22] In order for the oscillating model to be correct, it would seem that the known laws of physics would have to be revised. (ii) The oscillating model seems to be observationally untenable. Two facts of observational astronomy appear to run contrary to the oscillating model. First, the observed homogeneity of matter distribution throughout the universe seems unaccountable on an oscillating model. During the contraction phase of such a model, black holes begin to gobble up surrounding matter, resulting in an inhomogeneous distribution of matter. But there is no known mechanism to "iron out" these inhomogeneities during the ensuing expansion phase. Thus, the homogeneity of matter observed throughout the universe would remain unexplained. Second, the density of the universe appears to be insufficient for the re-contraction of the universe. For the oscillating model to be even possible, it is necessary that the universe be sufficiently dense such that gravity can overcome the force of the expansion and pull the universe back together again. However, according to the best estimates, if one takes into account both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos) as well as any possible contribution of neutrino particles to total mass, the universe is still only about one-half that needed for re-contraction


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> yeah yeah. The oscillating universe theory. Not new to me.
> 
> http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...tiong-model-of-the-universe-possible-t119.htm
> 
> The oscillating model appears to be physically impossible. For all the talk about such models, the fact seems to be that they are only theoretically, but not physically possible. As the late Professor Tinsley of Yale explains, in oscillating models "even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, there is no known physics to reverse the collapse and bounce back to a new expansion. The physics seems to say that those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, then end."[22] In order for the oscillating model to be correct, it would seem that the known laws of physics would have to be revised. (ii) The oscillating model seems to be observationally untenable. Two facts of observational astronomy appear to run contrary to the oscillating model. First, the observed homogeneity of matter distribution throughout the universe seems unaccountable on an oscillating model. During the contraction phase of such a model, black holes begin to gobble up surrounding matter, resulting in an inhomogeneous distribution of matter. But there is no known mechanism to "iron out" these inhomogeneities during the ensuing expansion phase. Thus, the homogeneity of matter observed throughout the universe would remain unexplained. Second, the density of the universe appears to be insufficient for the re-contraction of the universe. For the oscillating model to be even possible, it is necessary that the universe be sufficiently dense such that gravity can overcome the force of the expansion and pull the universe back together again. However, according to the best estimates, if one takes into account both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos) as well as any possible contribution of neutrino particles to total mass, the universe is still only about one-half that needed for re-contraction


 

In that case, don't use theoretical physics as a basis of your argument if you are not prepared to accept theoretical physics as a counter argument. I consider myself to be a seeker and am always learning but also have some knoweldge with regard to philosphy, religion and Science and am more than happy to debate with you on any of these terms. But don't start something that you aren't prepared to follow through


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## Lee (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> there are things in the bible, which are subject to interpretation. Jesus said, he is the ONLY way to the father. This is NOT subject to interpretation. Or he IS in fact the only way to the father, or he is not. Or you believe, Jesus said the truth, or you don't. There isnt something else to be interpreted. If you don't believe it, you make Jesus a liar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Kairos ji,

First many thanks for your prompt and serious reply.

When you say tha Jesus says he is the only way to the Father from which version of the Bible do you get that translation?

Can you not see that the fact that there are many to choose from and that each do not contiane the same words is testement to how easy it is to corrupt the words of the Bible?  As I have said before it is well known that King James changes swathes of teh bible for his own porpouses.  How certian are you then of thevalidity of these words?  In addition if holy scripture can be changed how holy is it?

Woe betide anybody who attempts to change even a single full stop(period for our State side brothers and sisters) in the pages of Guru Granth Sahib.

You speak about absolute truth, I only know of one indeed Guru ji tells us what it is.

Iknokar sat naam.

What does this mean to you?

Your comments on Pantheism and monotheism show me that you have not grasped my point about window dressing.

So again I'll give it to you and make is as plain as I can.

Theer are many holy scripture and if you look at each you find that each says, love God, love each other, God is all pervading.

This is what God is and what God wants of us, everything else, and I mean everything else is irrelevant, it is window dressing, or subjective data designed for differant cultures and mindsets in order that they each understand the objective truth I have spoke above.

What you belive God to be.  One God with no rivals(monothieism) or lots of entieis who are in reality merely differinf aspects of the one(Pantheisism) is irreklevant to what the truth about God is and what God wants form us.

Or put another way.

You say God is Blue I say God is Green, God is really all colours, but whether I say green and you say blue it makes no differance to what God wants of us.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> But don't start something that you aren't prepared to follow through[/COLOR]



what exactly do you feel i am not prepared to follow through ?


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Lee said:


> When you say tha Jesus says he is the only way to the Father from which version of the Bible do you get that translation?



http://www.helium.com/items/1136128-gospel-of-john-jesus-salvation-i-am-the-way

There are many Bible passages that have troubled both scholars and laymen alike over the centuries.People have questioned everything from where Cain got his wife to how so many animals could fit on the ark. Many of the sayings of Jesus have been hard to understand as well, but what He says in John 14:6 is not one of them.

In John 14:6 Jesus makes the best known of seven "I am" statements in which He clearly claims to be not only the way to God but God Himself. Jesus had just told His disciples that he He was leaving to prepare a place for them in His Father's house, and that they knew the way to the place He was going. The apostle Thomas asked Jesus how they could know the way, and Jesus answered:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Before going any further, I should make clear that in the original Greek in which the New Testament was written, the actually said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." But in the Aramaic language (which Jesus spoke), this really meant: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Now that we've cleared up the translation issues, what did Jesus mean when He said this? He meant that there was no other way to the Father than Him. In all of his "I am" statements, including this one, His use of the phrase "I am" was in direct reference to what God told Moses at the burning bush. Moses asked what he should say if the Israelites asked what God's name was, and God answered, "This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you' (Exodus 3:14)." The significance of the use of "I am" would not have been lost on the listeners of Jesus' day.

One of the most common, and most erroneous, arguments made by those who do not believe Jesus was the Son of God was that He never claimed to be. They say only His followers made this claim about him. Well, if John 14:6 isn't proof enough that Jesus did in fact claim it, the perhaps Jesus words before the High Priest will convince skeptics.

While on trial for His life, Jesus is asked by the high priest if He is the Son of God, and He answers "Yes, it is as you say (Matt 26:63-64)." Jesus could have avoided crucifixion by simply answering "no" to this question. But the true answer was "yes," which is how Jesus answered.



> Can you not see that the fact that there are many to choose from and that each do not contiane the same words is testement to how easy it is to corrupt the words of the Bible?



here you have over 20 english translations, where you can compare the text:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 14,6&version=AMP

you will see, no one will permit a different understanding. 



> In addition if holy scripture can be changed how holy is it?



The bible cannot be changed, but translations always permit to say the same thing in different words. 



> Woe betide anybody who attempts to change even a single full stop(period for our State side brothers and sisters) in the pages of Guru Granth Sahib.



Give his book to ten translators, and see...... 



> You speak about absolute truth, I only know of one indeed Guru ji tells us what it is.



If this is what you want to believe, keep believing it. I believe , the bible is the only true revelation of God. 




> Your comments on Pantheism and monotheism show me that you have not grasped my point about window dressing.



I didnt mention this based on what you said.


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

SSA.
kairos Ji that is the part i do not agree with at all, where it says " I am". It was written long after his death. Having read the bible i must say i loved the parable of "The good samaritan", to me Jesus in that parable is simply saying you do not have to be a high priest or a religous person to be a good person. Even in the old testament moses seems to be writing about himself long after his death.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 6, 2010)

*Daily quotes from the Bible that Kairos claims to be the word of God:
*
*GE 19:4-8  A group of sexually depraved men demands that Lot turn over to them his  two male visitors. Lot offers his two virgin daughters instead.

GE 19:30-38 Lot's daughters have sexual intercourse with him while he is drunk and both become pregnant by their father.*


This is the omnipotent God that Kairos serves who created incest and immorality. As one follows this kind of God, one has to have these traits too. As it is all God's creation and his omnipotence, God that Kairos serves make people commit these atrocities and indulge in immoral things. It is all of Karios' God's doing.

 How can this kind of omnipotent God be loving? The question Kairos should ask her/himself.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> SSA.
> kairos Ji that is the part i do not agree with at all, where it says " I am". It was written long after his death. Having read the bible i must say i loved the parable of "The good samaritan", to me Jesus in that parable is simply saying you do not have to be a high priest or a religous person to be a good person. Even in the old testament moses seems to be writing about himself long after his death.



Well, i actually believe, the gospel of John was written by the apostle John, which was a eyewitness. It makes no difference, how much after Jesus dead and ressurrection it was written. I believe the holy spirit of God inspired the writer to write down exactly, what God wanted him to write.


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Ok i see your point but i do not quiet agree. Tejwant Ji has just posted a quote from the bible regarding Lot from Sodom & Gomorah. Can you grasp the thinking of these people ? another quote from the old testament i cant remember where it is but i will find it, its about a prophet who offers his dear beloved wife for prostitution to a certain tribe so they will not harm him while he passes through that land. To me it sounds discusting but we all have our own opinions. Ask yourself this would you do or think on those terms ?


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos ji

You at this point are engaged in pure proselytizing. And the longer we engage you and even repeat/quote your comments, the longer we are permitting you to go in this direction.

You  paste quote after quote from the Hebrew and Christian testaments, and then say they are not open to interpretation. You say that forum members have to answer questions for themselves (as you did to me in an earlier post). You either do not read or do not attempt to understand what others are saying to you if it interrupts your flow of expression.

You are using this thread to dodge serious discussion. You have no intention of defending you point of view. You are looking only for one thing. An opportunity for oratory so that you can attract followers to your point of view. 


After thinking through some of what you have posted, I may delete some of it. If you do not heed by advice and start discussing then I will have to take other steps. So far we have been very liberal, very lenient.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Ok i see your point but i do not quiet agree. Tejwant Ji has just posted a quote from the bible regarding Lot from Sodom & Gomorah. Can you grasp the thinking of these people ?



well, where does the bible say, God aproved their behavior ?   The bible doesnt give a moral judgement of the act, it just describes what happened. 



> another quote from the old testament i cant remember where it is but i will find it, its about a prophet who offers his dear beloved wife for prostitution to a certain tribe so they will not harm him while he passes through that land. To me it sounds discusting but we all have our own opinions. Ask yourself this would you do or think on those terms ?



Abraham went to egypt, and offered his wife to the pharao as wife, saying, she was his sister, which weren't true. He did it, because he feared the pharao. Again, the bible doesnt make any judgement of his behavior, but just relates what happened.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Kairos ji
> 
> You at this point are engaged in pure proselytizing. And the longer we engage you and even repeat/quote your comments, the longer we are permitting you to go in this direction.




well, people are keeping asking for questions, and i am responding, what i believe. But if you would prefere to discuss Sikhism, you could answer, how God can be a part of creation, if creation had a absolute beginning with the Big Bang. A God, that has a beginning, cannot be God. God by definition must be eternal. 
That would be a good start, to begin with. 



> You  paste quote after quote from the Hebrew and Christian testaments, and then say they are not open to interpretation.



The versicles i quoted, are not, but others are. 




> You are using this thread to dodge serious discussion. You have no intention of defending you point of view.



Isnt that what i am doing all the time now ? 



> After thinking through some of what you have posted, I may delete some of it. If you do not heed by advice and start discussing then I will have to take other steps. So far we have been very liberal, very lenient.



I think you have no reason to accuse me of not discussing, since that is the only thing that i am doing here.

Rather searching for reasons to delete my posts, as a good moderator i would advert a other poster, which has attacked me personally in a unfair and unacceptable manner. Or are you applying two weights , one for the followers of your religion, and a other to the ones, that follow a different faith, and challenge yours ?


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

Reasonable people will have to disagree with you on your point above Kairos ji. So far I am not convinced. It would be a good idea if you stopped posting from the testaments for the time being. Go back an look at questions that various members have asked you and respond in your own words, without making the claim that because the testaments say x, y or z, that it must be true.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Reasonable people will have to disagree with you on your point above Kairos ji. So far I am not convinced. It would be a good idea if you stopped posting from the testaments for the time being. Go back an look at questions that various members have asked you and respond in your own words, without making the claim that because the testaments say x, y or z, that it must be true.



i am here to testify what i believe, and not to cite the bible makes no sense whatsoever, since questions and points about the bible its all about.


*Describing and explaining what you believe is  part of discussion. "Testifying" is proselytizing. This is my second warning. Truly I say unto you that I will start deleting if you are unable to discern the difference. *


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Well i am only a human being and i certainly do not condone that kind of behaviour. Abraham was a very old and high prophet for the jews, christians and the muslims. Why would he give his dear wife to a pharoh because he was afraid ? where was his faith ?. faith is what christianty is all about is it not ?.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Well i am only a human being and i certainly do not condone that kind of behaviour. Abraham was a very old and high prophet for the jews, christians and the muslims. Why would he give his dear wife to a pharoh because he was afraid ?
> 
> exactly. but that is left to us, to judge his behavior. The bible just tells us what happened. Nothing more.


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> i am here to testify what i believe, and not to cite the bible makes no sense whatsoever, since questions and points about the bible its all about.




Kairos ji

You have been warned. Let me point out the the title of thread indicates it is about Sikhism, not about the Bible. Heed my words. I am going to check back in an hour and then will make my decision. You have time to reconsider.


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Ok for the second time can you briefly give me your take on those quotes. What do you think of them ?. Do you agree with them ? do you think we should follow those examples ?. I have told you i am a human and i think some of those quotes are discusting. I could not even think on those terms never mind go through with them. Just tell me what you think without using the bible.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 6, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Kairos ji
> 
> You at this point are engaged in pure proselytizing. And the longer we engage you and even repeat/quote your comments, the longer we are permitting you to go in this direction.
> 
> ...



Narayanjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

I totally agree with you. Kairos is not here to learn but to spread immorality that his religion has taught him. He is not able to debate and is too insecure to answer any questions.

Proselytizing is his agenda. It is sad to notice the treasures and nuggets of goodness this forum present to him but he is not ready to make the best use of them. He is abusing the freedom of this great forum that has been allotted to him.

He is neither here to share, nor to learn but lasso some ignorant people, which he does not understand Sikhs are not, to follow his rapist, murderer God.

No one with a bit of commonsense would do that but Kairos does not get it. He has the blinders on.

As they say," One can awaken the one who is asleep but one can not awaken the sleepwalker".

We have not been able to awaken this sleepwalker. Hence, his posts have become useless and a big distraction for this forum.

I am sure you and the administration of this wonderful forum will take the right steps  even if that requires banning because of his agenda of proselytizing which is a big NO,NO>.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Very well said Tejwant Ji. Narayanjot Ji you are right. I will end my post regarding a answer to me from Kairos. Kairos you said to me about that Lot quote that god is not judging but only telling us what happened. You are wrong again that same God killed everyone in Sodom that day and let Lot live but turned his wife into stone. It was the work of the angels the God of the bible sent. Is that not judging and taking sides ? lol Goodbyeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

It is ironic that having dodged so many plain questions put to him that Kairos Ji is repeating questions we have already answered quite plainly, like the Big Bang created God argument!

I fear he is struggling to keep his head above water and if we remove his malfunctioning life jacket of endless hyperlinks and quotes from the Bible, he will surely drown!

If on the other hand he wants to have a proper debate, I and others are ready to continue

Let me prophesise now...Kairos Ji will query what questions he has dodged and continue to copy and paste freely and not really demonstrate any real knowledge or understanding...


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Well i am only a human being and i certainly do not condone that kind of behaviour. Abraham was a very old and high prophet for the jews, christians and the muslims. Why would he give his dear wife to a pharoh because he was afraid ? where was his faith ?. faith is what christianty is all about is it not ?.



ugsbay ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact is that Abraham was married to his sister Sarah, not to his cousin as the Christians proclaim in order not to feel ashamed. Abraham was also a rapist like the God he worshipped and Kairos worships. He raped his slave- Hager, who gave birth to Ishmael.

It is sad to notice that Kairos' religion is based on incest and rapes and he claims them to be  morally good traits, which is OK with me because these kind of immoral values do not belong to Sikhi.

Our Gurus were visionaries and they gave us the tools through SGGS, our only Guru how to breed goodness within and share with others, irrespective of their hue, creed or faith.

It is sad to notice that Kairos refuses to take a dive in this nectar of goodness but is here to spread his immoral values that his god has taught him.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Ok for the second time can you briefly give me your take on those quotes. What do you think of them ?. Do you agree with them ? do you think we should follow those examples ?. I have told you i am a human and i think some of those quotes are discusting. I could not even think on those terms never mind go through with them. Just tell me what you think without using the bible.



i think the same as you.


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Well Kairos its good to see you post without using the bible for quotes even if it is a few words lol. You must have read all about that incest as Tejwant Ji just described in the bible i certainly have. I dont understand after reading such barbaric discusting acts why one would simply follow and believe as Gods Gospel. But everyone has their own views and opinions. I dont buy into the New Testament for the simple reason that old angry jealous God has now cooled down. If my dad behaved anything like the God of the Old Testament he would be in Jail or even worse.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Well Kairos its good to see you post without using the bible for quotes even if it is a few words lol. You must have read all about that incest as Tejwant Ji just described in the bible i certainly have. I dont understand after reading such barbaric discusting acts why one would simply follow and believe as Gods Gospel.



the related episode is just a episode, a story of the book of Genesis. Its not written with the intent, someone should follow,and do , what they did.  The Gospel belongs to the new testament, and englobes the four gospels of the life of Jesus Christ. 



> But everyone has their own views and opinions. I dont buy into the New Testament for the simple reason that old angry jealous God has now cooled down. If my dad behaved anything like the God of the Old Testament he would be in Jail or even worse.



Have you ever read the old testament ?


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes of course i have read the Old Testament, the New Testament too. Jesus was Jewish and spoke for his people. He referred to us as Gentiles and even referred to us as dogs in one quote, i am sure you have read it or chose to ignore it. It was Paul who bought the Gentiles into Christianty. I dont even want to go into the meeting Constantine set up regarding the christians.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Yes of course i have read the Old Testament, the New Testament too. Jesus was Jewish and spoke for his people. He referred to us as Gentiles and even referred to us as dogs in one quote, i am sure you have read it or chose to ignore it. It was Paul who bought the Gentiles into Christianty. I dont even want to go into the meeting Constantine set up regarding the christians.




http://ezinearticles.com/?Did-Jesus-Call-That-Woman-a-Dog?&id=929375

The woman begins the incident by calling out to Jesus. The title she uses is significant. She doesn't address him with general titles of respect like teacher, rabbi or master, but rather she addresses him as "Son of David." The title "Son of David" is a very exclusive title, which is only used to refer to the Jewish Messiah. (See Mt 12:23 and Mt 22:41-42.) Additionally, the revelation of Jesus as Messiah only comes directly from God, as evidenced by Peter's confession of Jesus as Messiah to which Jesus replied," Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven." Mt.16: 16-17.

According to Matthew's account, the woman continues calling out even though Jesus is silent. The disciples finally intervene. Rather than being stunned by her recognition of Jesus as Messiah, their response is cultural, asking Jesus to send her away.

Jesus doesn't send her away, but states, "I was sent only to the lost children of Israel," and "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." There are only two ways the woman can respond. She can assume she's being called a dog and take offense, or she can discern the spiritual message hidden beneath that statement. By her response, she appears to understand that Jesus' primary calling is to the Jews, but incredibly, she also recognizes that just crumbs, the size that would thoughtlessly fall under the table, are enough for what she's asking.

If Jesus decided to cast out the demon, would "the house be unoccupied" for the demon and seven more evil than itself to return and enter the girl? Or, was there evidence that the daughter would be protected by the presence of God?

The woman's recognition of Jesus as the Son of David, her comprehension of the spiritual message underlying Jesus' response to her, and her belief that this miracle required nothing more than crumbs of Jesus' power provided overwhelming evidence for Jesus to declare, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted."

Did Jesus call that woman a dog? On a superficial level, the answer is yes. But, on a spiritual level, Jesus was offering this woman the opportunity to prove that she did indeed have a relationship with the Father; a relationship that would assure her daughter of a future protected from a fate worse than possession by one demon.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> Well, i actually believe, the gospel of John was written by the apostle John, which was a eyewitness. It makes no difference, how much after Jesus dead and ressurrection it was written. I believe the holy spirit of God inspired the writer to write down exactly, what God wanted him to write.



You have contradicted yourself again as in an earlier post you acknowledged human influences on OT texts....unless you are suggesting your God decided that deliberately and only the NT was to be aided by the Holy Spirit

Your point about time is silly. You tell me what you were doing 5 years ago today. What places did you go to? Who did you meet? What conversations did you have??


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

If you read Matthew 15 verse 24, it clearly says: Then jesus replied,"I have been sent only to the lost sheep of the people of israel". You can interpret into any way you want but the message there is very clear. That is why i say he spoke for his people the Jews only. Anyway goodluck to you. As mentioned earlier by Tejwant Ji your statements will not work here.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> Well Kairos its good to see you post without using the bible for quotes even if it is a few words lol. You must have read all about that incest as Tejwant Ji just described in the bible i certainly have. I dont understand after reading such barbaric discusting acts why one would simply follow and believe as Gods Gospel. But everyone has their own views and opinions. I dont buy into the New Testament for the simple reason that old angry jealous God has now cooled down. If my dad behaved anything like the God of the Old Testament he would be in Jail or even worse.



ugsbay ji,

Guru Fateh.

Kairos is  full of contradictions. Your above post shows that the rapist, murderer God that Kairos serves is not PERFECT as he had to "cool down" in the NT which is hillarious to say the least.

Allow me to give another example of a good father which the God that allows incest, rapes and killings of the innocents is not.

A loving god would do like a loving parent and put plastic locks in the electrical outlets,locks on doors to cleaning fluids, etc. etc. He will not say," Look, there is some battery acid, I am going away and it is right here in your room, but do not play with it".

Allow me to close this post from verse number 8, Ashtpadi3 of Gauri Sukhmani beautifully expressed by our 5th Guru, Guru Arjan Dev ji who was tortured to death by the King who also served the rapist and the murderer God of Abraham that Kairos does. 

This beautiful Gurbani  is also known as  "The Psalm of Peace".

*Of  all religions, the best religion is to invoke the Name of God and maintain pure  conduct. Of all religious rituals, the most sublime ritual is to erase the filth  of the mind in the company of humble.  Of all efforts, the best effort is  to plant the Name of God in your heart, forever. Of all speech, the best speech  is to hear God's praise and speak it with your tongue. Of all places, the most  sublime place, O Nanak, is that heart in which the Name of God abides. Sri Guru Granth Sahib page  266*

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos ji

Thanks for taking the time to describe how you understand the biblical passage in which a woman addresses Jesus as the "son of David." However, you make some other claims that don't quite align with history.


When indeed did the message of the son of David become a message to Christians? Not during his lifetime and not for some considerable time thereafter.

When did the followers of Jesus begin to be *Christians* as clearly distinguished from Jews who followed Jesus, according to historical (not evangelistic accounts)? When did they stop calling themselves Jews?  Who were the first to call them Christians? How long after the death of Jesus? Who were the sources for this information? Timing and chronology are important. Please do not quote any epistles or biblical texts when you answer. I am interested in a historical account not a religious one. Are there any sources contemporaneous with the life of Jesus.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> You have contradicted yourself again as in an earlier post you acknowledged human influences on OT texts....unless you are suggesting your God decided that deliberately and only the NT was to be aided by the Holy Spirit
> 
> Your point about time is silly. You tell me what you were doing 5 years ago today. What places did you go to? Who did you meet? What conversations did you have??



Why do you think i contradicted myself ?  I believe all scripture , OT, and NT,   was inspired by God, as written :

2.Timothy 3:16 : Every scripture 23  is inspired by God 24  and useful for teaching, for reproof, 25  for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God 26  may be capable 27  and equipped for every good work.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> If you read Matthew 15 verse 24, it clearly says: Then jesus replied,"I have been sent only to the lost sheep of the people of israel". You can interpret into any way you want but the message there is very clear. That is why i say he spoke for his people the Jews only. Anyway goodluck to you. As mentioned earlier by Tejwant Ji your statements will not work here.



In fact, Jesus was sent to the Jews only, but his sacrifice has validity for all humanity, and people of all nations, who believe in him as Lord and Saviour.  as clearly stated in acts.


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Kairos ji
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to describe how you understand the biblical passage in which a woman addresses Jesus as the "son of David." However, you make some other claims that don't quite align with history.
> 
> ...



i don't know any sources outside the bible, therefore i cannot answer your question extra-biblically.


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

Karios i am supprised you have not dug into the foundations of your religion. I think you should buts it upto you. You maye be shocked to see what you may find for better or for worse but either way you will have learned something. Its just a suggestion but i know you will follow or read nothing but the bible.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> Why do you think i contradicted myself ?  I believe all scripture , OT, and NT,   was inspired by God, as written :
> 
> 2.Timothy 3:16 : Every scripture 23  is inspired by God 24  and useful for teaching, for reproof, 25  for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God 26  may be capable 27  and equipped for every good work.



Look at what you said in your earlier post, number 60 on this thread. Here is what you said: _"the bible does always take into account the personality of the writer,  and his sentiments. In case of the verses in Jesajas, what he wrote,  were just his sentiments and wishes based on the deplorable situation." _

So clearly, you have contradicted yourself


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> i don't know any sources outside the bible, therefore i cannot answer your question extra-biblically.



An interesting comment in light of a recent post where you provided links to sites that supposedly provided historical evidence for the Bible. It does look like that you are going in so many circles, that even you have lost track of some of what you have said and are now contradicting yourself again and again.....


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Look at what you said in your earlier post, number 60 on this thread. Here is what you said: _"the bible does always take into account the personality of the writer,  and his sentiments. In case of the verses in Jesajas, what he wrote,  were just his sentiments and wishes based on the deplorable situation." _
> 
> So clearly, you have contradicted yourself



the apostle Peter said :

“ Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

i believe, God provided the precise thought to the human author, and he then wrote it down in terms of his own vocabulary, culture, education, and writing style.


http://www.allabouttruth.org/who-wrote-the-bible.htm


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> An interesting comment in light of a recent post where you provided links to sites that supposedly provided historical evidence for the Bible. It does look like that you are going in so many circles, that even you have lost track of some of what you have said and are now contradicting yourself again and again.....



No, i simply do not know a extra biblical source to that specific question of yours.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> the apostle Peter said :
> 
> “ Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
> 
> ...



I see you have returned to quotes and hyperlinks

In this case, an out of context quote to backup a feeble hypothesis

And where's the holy spirit in all this, which you elaborated on in a recent post about the Gospel of John?

So let me help you out here...from God to scripture perhaps this is what happens:

God tells the Holy Spirit
The Holy spirit tells the human
The human, despite being graced with divine knowledge still chooses to put his own spin on things 
All this happens (sometimes decades) after the events (strange how God did not think it appropriate to inspire, despatch the Holy Spirit at the time the events occurred)
and voila, we have the Scriptures

Over time, entire texts are removed, only to be found again centuries later and they appear to offer a different view from the "official" Bible 

What complete and utter RUBBISH!
winkingmunda


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> i don't know any sources outside the bible, therefore i cannot answer your question extra-biblically.



Then that is a serious matter Kairos ji, for it means that you have no other purpose in this thread than to repeat passages from the Bible and/or unthinking  commentaries. That leaves us in the position of rejecting all of what you  have said so far as your opinions based on faulty texts. 

Please explain how the past several days are related to the topic of the thread.

You began the thread with these words,



> i would like to learn more abouth sikh religion.
> Why is it in your view the " right ", or true religion, over other ones ?
> 
> Why should someone prefere to become a Sikh, instead a Muslim, or christian, or buddhist , for example ?



How truthful were you in a thread that is supposedly about the truth? 

More than a few muslims have started threads here in the same way. An innocent question is posed. The questioner says he/she wants to learn about Sikhism. What follows is an endless diatribe about Islam and the Quran. You have essentially done the same. It is proselytizing isn't it? You don't really want to know anything about Sikhism. You only sought an audience for Christian views from the very start.


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## spnadmin (Aug 6, 2010)

*One more violation of TOS and the thread will be closed.*


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## Kairos (Aug 6, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Then that is a serious matter Kairos ji, for it means that you have no other purpose in this thread than to repeat passages from the Bible and/or unthinking  commentaries. That leaves us in the position of rejecting all of what you  have said so far as your opinions based on faulty texts.
> 
> Please explain how the past several days are related to the topic of the thread.
> 
> ...



are you not observing, that i am essentially questioned about my faith, and i am responding these questions ? I wanted also to change a littlebit the focus, and understand, how Pantheismus can be true. This could have been a possibility to change the focus of this thread. But - if that is what you wish, you might start, and answer the question of the topic.

Why is Sikhism the True Religion?


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## ugsbay (Aug 6, 2010)

I will post my last post now i think lol. In Genesis it says the snake spoke to Eve, what language did he speak ?. The snakes punishment was that he will slither on his belly for ever, does this mean prior to making Eve eat the Apple he was walking upright lol. 
Why should i be hanged or put to death if my dad killed someone ? If Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit why are we all sinners and paying for there sins even newborn babies are sinners in the eyes of the Bible. I think i will leave it at that, no question about Sikhism has been asked and that is what it was all supposed to be about.


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## Seeker9 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kairos said:


> are you not observing, that i am essentially questioned about my faith, and i am responding these questions ?
> 
> You started getting questioned when you shifted focus to what the Bible has to say
> 
> ...



Who says it is?
Sikhism certainly doesn't
The question is flawed

My answer would be: "I don't know because Sikhism doesn't say it is the the true religion. It's only rigid followers of sectarian paths like yourself that thinks there is some sort of contest for which there can only be one winner"


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## polpol (Aug 8, 2010)

:argue:





Kairos said:


> i don't know any sources outside the bible, therefore i cannot answer your question extra-biblically.



I wish to give it a try. From what I learned, Christianity as we know it has very little to do with Jesus. Jesus insisted that he came to save the Jews. He wanted to purify the Hebrew faith as it got corrupted by the scribes and those who he called hypocrites ie. the various religeous authorities. He told the apostles to go and preach all over the world, because there were Jews all over (in Greece too) who spoke different languages, he never told them to proselyse non-Jews. Judas is  very interesting. He thought Jesus was a political revolutionary that was going to free them from the Romans. When he realised his mistake, he betrayed Jesus because he saw Jesus as a traitor to the Jewish cause.  When the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem, many Jews converted to Christianity because they saw that Jesus was right. He predicted that it would happen. 
To make a long story short, it is with Paul (Saul), the first non-Jew convert
that marks the first turning point of Christianity as we know it. Then in the early Middle Ages, a theologian...I'm not sure but I think it was St. Augustin really laid down the theological foundation of Christianity. There was also the first "concile" where some texts where chosen to become the "true" dogma and where some other texts were put aside. For example there is an ancient text that would qualify as a gospel but it was ignored as heretic because it clearly states that Mary Magdalan was not only one of the Apostles but his favorite one. The story says that after his death Jesus appeared to her at first and the apostles were very jealous of that...
Now we know how important the "Our Father" prayer is to Christians but not many know that this spiritual omen was replaced in importance (as to acknowledging Christian membership), by the "I beleave" prayer which makes beleavers bow first of all to the Church and its mortal representatives. 

Personally I'm tired of discussing Christianity in a Sikh site. Too bad, the thread started as a real inquiry into Sikhism and it was interesting but then we see it is all about some Christian crusador...not again...there was Bittu and now there is Kairos. 

Kairos, you talk a lot about truth but from my personal expereance Christians are the most unhealthy of all kinds of beleavers first because they are encouraged to see ignorance as a virtue and second because they are fed with so many lies and inconsistancies that lying becomes a second nature. Whereas all people lie now and then, Christians indeed are the champions because they are capable of lying even to themselves. I don't want to be rude but if I had time I would conduct a scientific psychological study on this. 

Finally, the idea of an original sin is pretty creepy.How can we see an innocent infant as a filthy sinner who would never go to heaven if it dies before baptism. Blood, sweat and tears, that's what Christianity is all about...too bad.


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## ik-jivan (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Why is Sikhism the true religion ?*

Kairos,
I’m going to attempt to answer your last question, because I think it’s an important one.

To begin with, each religion began with a messenger, who was chosen by the Grace of God to receive and then transmit the truth as the Word of God. Those messengers each had a capacity to comprehend a portion of truth, yet had direct experience of the whole, universal truth. Expressing the whole truth is impossible for any human being, so the messengers were given specific matters to transmit to mankind, which related to the times and cultures they were born into. The expression of truth is always colored by human culture, yet at the core of all religions, the same truth exists.

There is a distinct difference between the Word of God as revealed through the scriptures of any religion and the cultures that arise around religions to give them the color and characteristics we associate with them. Yet, God has no religion and does not play favorites with creation. The whole of creation is created, directed, cultivated, governed and owned by One Universal Creator Being.

All the religions are each designed for different segments of mankind, based upon cultural conditioning, as well as consciousness capacity. Western religions are pragmatic, aiming to teach discipline of behavior and humility of ego by laying out laws that no person could adhere to fully. A good example is the Judeo-Christian Sabbath law. Jesus actually broke this law by gleaning wheat on the Sabbath. He did this to remind the Jews that the laws were intended to serve man and not man the laws. Likewise, Islam, on the surface, has black & white philosophies where you either are or are not an infidel.

Eastern religions, like Buddhism and Hinduism, aim to teach what is above pragmatic, concrete and material, with focus on universality, diversity of oneness and the futility of striving after the transient. As examples, the rishis and munis are those who abandon the temporal world to concentrate their consciousness in meditation on spiritual siddhis, or supernatural powers. The Buddhists also aim to empty themselves of the ego-I so that the God’s consciousness can fill their beings and be present as light in the world.

Sikhi, as laid out by the Word of God as expressed in Gurbani, observes the transience of the temporal world, but does not reject the opportunities to learn from Waheguru what life in human form provides. The Word of God revealed to Nanak Dev ji speaks of the same universality expressed through the Eastern religions, but it also speaks of the importance of living an honest virtuous life, as was expressed in Western religions.

Each and every individual is not only entitled, but encouraged, to practice – to the highest degree – the religion that is best suited to their character (samskaras) and capacity of consciousness. Sikhi is no more or less the ‘true religion’ than any other. Sikhi does not proselytize, but it also does not tolerate forced conversion. Sikh principles observe the Formless Universal Creator God without intermediary (no more human gurus, effigies or idols), because a Sikh’s consciousness has the capacity to. Not everyone can do this and adherents of fundamental Sikh philosophy accept and understand this.

As Guru Gobind Singh ji said to Aurangzeb, ‘Your Majesty it is not the stamp on the coin but what is inside which makes the coin worthwhile. Even if a counterfeit coin has your Majesty’s creed imprinted upon it, no one will exchange it with the goods in the market place. So also in the case of faith, it is not the label, but the content that is pleasing to God and which determines who is consigned to hell, who to heaven. I believe in one God, not two or three and for me no one is an infidel save one who denies His presence’.

I’ll have to answer the question, ‘What makes you believe, the teaching of reincarnation is true?’ with a personal view, as only personal experience can determine what one believes. The simple answer is ‘samskaras’. These are the unique and distinct likes and dislikes, as well as quirks of character and what seem to be inborn preferences we all have. Biases, prejudices, preferences and such are either culturally learned or innate. Those that are culturally learned are readily recognisable as such. Much of what is innate can be attributed to survival objectives. But for those biases, prejudices and preferences that are neither culturally learned, nor attributable to survival objectives, there must be some explanation. Through rational analysis of facts, I (and many others) conclude the following theory:

Through our biological ancestry, we inherit genetics that give us physical characteristics and though our consciousness DNA we inherit mental and emotional dispositions. Between lives we revert to the ‘seed’ of potentialities. In lives we sprout, grow, mature, bear fruit, re-seed and then die. The seed carries forward what we have evolved into. The seed is not the parent and one’s current being is not the same person whose consciousness DNA was passed along. The dispositions– those samskaras – that encapsulate characteristics, but not the ego-identity, are transferred from lifetime to lifetime.

Essential, truth arises within as direct experience of Divine Knowledge. Whatever we learn from external sources can only corroborate and confirm what the Grace of God has inspired us to understand. We each possess inborn comprehension of the absoluteness of any given quality, but it is only through contemplation and communion with the Absolute that we gain awareness of it. All religions recognise the importance of remembering and contemplating the One Universal Creator Being. Some perceive it imminent. Some perceive it remote. Our perception of it does not change it in the least.


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2010)

Forum members pyaare jios, 


I asked that the posters address the question posed by the thread. Still again we are reading an exegesis of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures with argument one way or the other, and links to further explain these texts. Thus we are going in circles.


Some recent posts have been deleted. Apologies. The final comments left is that of  respected ik-jivan as it summarizes the issue very well.

The thread is closed.


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