# Silent Majority On SPN Forum



## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

*  SILENT MAJORITY ON SPN FORUM*



SPN Forum has 8116 members to date but it is only 15-20 members taking part in any debate, others are silent observers with out any personal opinion/suggestion/comment, which comes to 0.18% involvement. This is also true in any democratic process that the silent majority sits quietly in the religious and political election process all over the world.

Purpose of the debate on SPN forum is to find amicable solutions to the changing conditions in the world as well as to understand AGGS and to follow Its teachings. With the passage of time change seems to be on the horizon perpetuated by myths created by interested individuals or scientific discoveries or religious turmoil/agenda/fears/ insecurity etc. God is the only one which does not change as described by Guru Nanak in Japji and Guru Amardas in Raag Asa;

ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥

_Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug ėko vės._ 

The Primal and Pure One, is without beginning or end, and had been the same throughout all the ages. -----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 6-17

ਤੂੰ ਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਏਕੋ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥

_Ŧūŉ jug jug ėko saḏā saḏā ṯūŉ ėko jī ṯūŉ nihcẖal karṯā so&shy;ī._

 Age after age, You are the One. Forever and ever, You are the One. You never change, O Creator Lord. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 11-12

Change is inevitable, which is a fact of life. According to Guru Nanak each age has changed in certain respects as he describes in Raag Asa; 

ਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਵਟਾਈਅਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥

_Jug jug fėr vatā&shy;ī&shy;ah gi&shy;ānī bujẖeh ṯāhi._

In age after age they change; the spiritually wise understand this.

The most important part of the body is the conscience, which is the charioteer of the body.

During the four age’s charioteer have changed hands but this secret is understood only by few learned people.

During Satyug, contentment was the chariot of the body and Dharam the charioteer, when all were contented and religious.

During the Treta Yug, the chariot was celibacy and enlightenment was the charioteer so people were celibate and brave.

During Duapur Yug, penance was the chariot and Truth was the charioteer, so people were speaking truth and engaged in penance.

During the present age Kaljug, the chariot is of burning worldly desires, and speaking untruth is the charioteer. It is through meditation on the True Name that one could get salvation.

SatYug is considered the prime age of these four ages as pronounced by Shyam Ved and Setumber, Hansa incarnation of God, when people spoke the Truth.

During Treta Rig Veda says that the God pervades in full measure in all beings and every where, and Its Name was considered the main force by gods.

During Duapur Yug, Yujar Veda says that Krishna had seduced Chanderavali, who brought the tree “Parjapat” from god Indra’s garden for the milk maid Satyabhamur and the enjoyed life at Vinderaban from across the river.

During KalYug, Ved Athraban is in vogue, when people stopped remembering God’s Name. Here O’Nanak! The person, who considers himself low and humble, could attain salvation, while worshiping the God at his home even.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 470

We have a choice to fight against the current or accept and go with the flow; to fight it or embrace it. Change must be faced with an open mind and positive attitude. There is a general and natural reluctance to change our understanding of the world maturely, constructively, and realistically.

It was thought that only the laws of nature like fundamental quantities such as the strength of gravity, the speed of light in a vacuum or the charge on the electron are all constant. The fine-structure constant, α, is a measure of the strength of the electromagnetic interaction, and it quantifies the strength with which electrons bind within atoms and molecules. The fine-structure constant is of particular interest because it is a dimensionless number. There are theoretical reasons why α and other dimensionless constants might vary with time. This means that the actual size of the universe is about 40 billion light-years and rising from the time of big bang 13.5 billion light-years. Confirmation that α is changing would have profound implications for physics. May be a Physicist member could comment on this?

The universe is in constant activity. It is also true that this Universe has a beginning and an end, called dissolution. Whether it is a play of cosmic physical forces or a God, had not been answered, either by philosophers or scientists, but Guru Nanak in Raag Asa & Maru and other Gurus have expressed similarly that God is the creator and finally destroyer of Its creation;

ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਫੁਨਿਗੋਈ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥

Jin sir sājī ṯin fun go&shy;ī Ŧis bin ḏūjā avar na ko&shy;ī..

That, who created the Universe, shall ultimately destroy it. Without Lord, there is no other at all.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa and Maru, AGGS, Page, 355-9 & 1020-11 

It may be the proper vigor of Nature and might have spontaneity resulting from the powers inherent in the eternal, Psychophysical power. There is no absolute proof for the existence of God, as the evidence just does not exist. It starts with faith. Faith is a personal matter. If there is a proof, then there is no need of any faith. Though there are enough clues about God, but each individual has to decide for himself though their spiritual experience if any? 

So far, there is absolutely no certain way to prove or disapprove that God set the whole creation in motion by adopting Universal Eternal Laws of Nature. We have never understood Nature so well or been able to harness that energy, and yet we have never been so destructive of nature for our own selfish uses except for the latest global warming, which may be the cause of recent weather disturbances. At the same time, every one admits the existence of a Psychophysical energy as the individual or Universal experience.

Now here comes the silent majority in any faith, which does not want to come out of their cocoon and are sitting with out questioning, debating or even purposing any thing. May be they are standing on side lines, watching that one will choose right over wrong or vice versa. 

IMHO no one in the debates on this forum has shown any disrespect to our God/Gurus/AGGS in any form. No one is forcing any ideas on others. It is individual’s own priority or decision or understanding about the teachings incorporated in AGGS. No one can change any body. It is the individual who has to change himself depending upon his choice, faith, attitude, acceptance, willingness, and understanding.

The other interesting finding in the world is that a child born has to follow the religion of the parents. The child has no option or choice. It will be interesting to give a chance to the child as he/she grows up to study all the religions and then pick up, what ever he/she likes.

Miserable men live in hopes; mighty men face facts and reconcile them all in the Truth of God, and achieve personal growth through virtuous living with a positive attitude and clear understanding.

I am a student of Truth, trying honestly and sincerely to understand it. Truth/Naam is the name of God in Sikh thought and is the foundation stone of the philosophy incorporated in AGGS and the faith revolves around it. God/Truth/Naam is formless;

ਬੋਲੈ ਭਰਥਰਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ॥ਪਰਮ ਤੰਤ ਮਹਿ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਰੂਪੁ ॥

_Bolai bẖarthar saṯ sarūp. Param ṯanṯ meh rėkẖ na rūp._

Says Bhart'har (ਗੋਰਖ ਦਾ ਚੇਲਾ, ਇਕ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਿਆ) God is the embodiment of Truth; the supreme essence of reality has no shape or form. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 953-3

ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ॥

_Nā&shy;o ṯėrā nirankār hai nā&shy;ė la&shy;i&shy;ai narak na jā&shy;ī&shy;ai._

Your Name is Formless; chanting Your Name, one does not to go to hell.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-15

ਕਰਮਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥

_Karam Kartoot Bayl Bistharee Ram Naam Fal Hoo-aa, Tis Roop Na Raykh Anaahad Vaajai Sabd Niranjan Kee-aa._

The vine of good actions and character has spread out, and it bears the fruit of the God's Name. The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Sabd, the Immaculate Akal Purkh is revealed. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page 351-

ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਸਾਰਾ ॥

_Baran cẖihan nāhī mukẖ na māsārā._ 

Akal Purkh has no color, no sign, no mouth and no beard -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-10

ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਚਿਹਨ ਅਰੁ ਬਰਨ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਤਿ ਨਹਿਨ ਜਿਹ ॥ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥

_Chakar Chihan Ur Baran Jaat Ur Paat Nehan Jeh, Roop Rung Ur Rekh Bhekh Kou Keh Na Sakat Keh._

Akal Purkh is without mark or sign, without caste or line, without color or form, and without any distinctive norm. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Jaap Sahib.

Despite the above references we want to have a form.

Let us hope that silent majority comes out of their cocoon and honor us with their comments, recommendations and thoughts. Please share with your fresh thoughts and opinions and spiritual or other experiences of life. 

Please no personal attacks, we can always agree to disagree in a civil academic discussion with maturity in a constructive and creative way.

Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, Mi 48895


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## kds1980 (Apr 9, 2009)

> SPN Forum has 8116 members to date but it is only 15-20 members taking part in any debate, others are silent observers with out any personal opinion/suggestion/comment, which comes to 0.18% involvement. This is also true in any democratic process that the silent majority sits quietly in the religious and political election process all over the world.



The comparision of registered member of SPN with the silent majority of world or a country is not correct.I myself don't remember on How many site's I have registered myself as a member so that does not mean I am silent majority of those sites.You can say silent majority are the members that regularly visit SPN but do not participate


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear kds1980,

I have no way to determine that as to how many members visit the forum and posts on daily basis. Where ever I am a member on a forum I do visit that forum on daily basis, I may or not participate in debate but I do know what is going on other wise I should resign my membership on that forum.

Thanks for your response.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## kds1980 (Apr 9, 2009)

Let me tell you only 74 members have visited SPN in last 24 hrs.I guess only 150-200 members are active members on SPN apart from that We have so many people visit SPN as guests too.My only point is we cannot compare a site with a country,religion  and call its non participation members as silent majority


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear kds1980,

Even then you prove my point. There 150-200 visits per day but participation may be only 10 comes to 5-10 %. How many Sikhs wear 5 K's and how many really mean it to be truthful.

The # on the top of the forum 8117 is misleading. I have been on the forum about a month and have posted 90 threads, thanked 83 times, thanked 305 responders, and responded 312 times. Members who debate should read all of my threads before forming an opinion about me in its totallity.

Thanks for your comments.
Cordially,
Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 9, 2009)

Dr Sahib Jio,
Majorities are illusory....
On an Online Yahoo Forum......which has more than 10,000 members..only about five people even bother to just CLICK a few options and submit...Let alone write something...and not once..but every time a poll is held...no matter what the subject..
Anyway we are committed to imparting our knowledge and experience....whosoever learns..reaps the benefits..its all about SHARING..and not " worrying HOW MANY READ/dont read/etc "
My personal experience..is SPN has more value added readers..simply becasue one has to SIGN IN..unlike the Yahoo Groups which send messages non stop..one group that i dropped out of has sent mails to my mailbox running into a few thousand...online mail space is no so big..no need to bother as mail boxes never fill up...that Mod must be thinking i am stll a member...silent majority ??
The Numbers keep on RISING..some drop out..other come in...its like the flowing river...those who write..keep on writing...those who read keep on reading..

I dont get what you mean about "opinion in totality". Not all of the readers have the time or effort to read in totality...its more like the Six Blind men of Hindoostan who went to see an elephant...each one reads and understands what he/she has read....and furthermore not everything we write in Totality is really interesting to ALL the SPN all the time...some of it is interesting to some of them some of the time...and maybe NONE of it to some..all the time ?? We throw the seeds...it is up to "nature" to take its time..to germinate..some..or all..or NONE....no bodys fault.

Cheers and keep on writing...:happy::inca:


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## spnadmin (Apr 9, 2009)

Gyani and vsgewal both ji

There are forum members like my sister who log on and read for the educational value of reading. Once I asked her why not post now and then. She said, "I don't have anything to say." That is an honorable state of mind -- to be still if that is how one feels, rather than say something just to be saying something. 

In truth -- my own experience when I first joined SPN. I only joined to be able to* read* threads in Hard Talk. You have to be a member to access Hard Talk. I did not post anything for a long while and kept getting email messages from Aman Singh who wrote that I should write something. Never having been on a forum before I thought that it was a *must*  to post in order to keep my membership active. I was really afraid and posted something not to loose my membership. That is how naive I was about all of this. Members have different reasons for joining and some just want to read and stay informed.


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## Admin (Apr 9, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> The # on the top of the forum 8117 is misleading. I have been on the forum about a month and have posted 90 threads, thanked 83 times, thanked 305 responders, and responded 312 times. Members who debate should read all of my threads before forming an opinion about me in its totallity.



Respected virinder Ji

Most respectfully, you did read stats wrong... which state that you have thanked other members 83 times and you have been thanked 305 times for started around 100 threads since your joining... which is quite remarkable in my perspective... rest Gyaniji and Antonia ji have said it all...

SPN is an interactive encyclopedia of Sikh thought process... members come join learn share and evolve and move on... if you read our introductions thread, you will notice that we always state: Welcome to SPN! We hope to learn from your presence at SPN and *we do hope that you enjoy stay over here*... so 8,000 members is indeed a number which we should not read too much into... but idea is to keep the thought process keep on going... only this idea made you visit SPN at first place right? 

Ofcourse, as mentors, administrators and moderators, new memberships do keep us motivated as we meet so many diverse mindsets from around the world.

Humbly

Aman

PS: if you think there are fewer active members then perhaps you could invite your friends to visit the network and keep the thought process going.


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## Harpreet_Singh_ (Apr 10, 2009)

As stated above, sometimes you just want to read. 

I don't have much wisdom to impart, and if i open my mouth too much, it'll show how little i know.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 10, 2009)

Harpreet_Singh_ said:


> As stated above, sometimes you just want to read.
> 
> I don't have much wisdom to impart, and if i open my mouth too much, it'll show how little i know.



Thats being humble..a hallmark of  a true SIKH. As I have said it a thousand times  before..SIKHI is a life long learning process..only stops when we die ( thats also..a...maybe ?? because no one has ever come back !! so i am not sure )
So no SIKH can say hes learn't it all..finished..i can rest....NOWAY. I KNOW i cant say that..
And Harpreet Ji.."Knowledge" has  so many facets...there is always some one some where who KNOWS more about something than ME / YOU / Anyone else.. The Little kiddie may "actually "know" more about the taste of various ice creams than ME...:whisling:me..so there is my bubble burst !! by a 3 year old !!:whisling::whisling::whisling:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 10, 2009)

Dear All,

Thanks for clarification. Thanks all. I was confused with the numbers shown by the computer on the top.

Cordially,

Virinder


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