# Shariah & Implications For Sikhs?



## Rory (Jul 10, 2012)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xtremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html

With increasing Moslem populations in Western countries, it does seem that at some point within the next few centuries, Moslems will demand Shariah in countries where they have high or majority populations.

This is quite a dim prospect to me, what are your views on Shariah & how do you think it will affect Sikhs if Shariah was to be introduced in the UK & US?
Do you think Shariah will prevail in Western countries?

I reckon there will have to be some major change if countries such as England want to stop Moslems from overwhelming & establishing Shariah.


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## Auzer (Jul 10, 2012)

Rory said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xtremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html
> 
> With increasing Moslem populations in Western countries, it does seem that at some point within the next few centuries, Moslems will demand Shariah in countries where they have high or majority populations.
> 
> ...



Oh no ..not again! 

This Anjem Chaudry guy is an idiot. Muslims and non-Muslims in British makes joke about him. He is not even significant..How much 'following' he has got? Yup..like 100 at max? lol 

There will be NO 'Muslim-Majority' in Europe .... 

Europe is going to be 'Atheist Majority' , if anything other than 'Christian Majority'.  

It is sad that media portrays this loon as 'Muslim leader' ..really? Muslim Community of Europe is not represented by such idiots. 

European Muslims are represented by people like Tariq Ramadan , Majid Nawaz , Kistiane Backer , Hamza Tzortiz , Adnan Rashid , Nabila Ramdani , Mehdi Hassan , Abdullah Al Andulusi  etc etc etc 

In the above mentioned list , you have ALL spectrum of Muslim views... From conservative Islamic to liberal ... But these are 'European Muslims' -- not lunactics like Anjem Chaudry ...

There is simple fact of civilizations : 

Islamic Shari'a is not for Europe .......

Western Democracy is not for China .....

Russian Communism is not for United States....

So on and so forth. Every culture has it own way of governing itself...

There would be NO Shari'a in Europe....
Chill...


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## Rory (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for the reply Auzerji.

I've tried to learn a lot about Islam but I might still be ignorant, so sorry in advance if I'm mistaken.
Doesn't Qur'an teach that before the end of the world, all nations will have to come under Shariah? If so, why, as a Muslim, do you not believe Shariah is supposed to come to Europe?


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## Auzer (Jul 10, 2012)

Rory said:


> Thanks for the reply Auzerji.
> 
> I've tried to learn a lot about Islam but I might still be ignorant, so sorry in advance if I'm mistaken.
> Doesn't Qur'an teach that before the end of the world, all nations will have to come under Shariah? If so, why, as a Muslim, do you not believe Shariah is supposed to come to Europe?



No problem! It is good to ask Muslims regarding Islam  

Regarding your question---Nopes. Qur'an , as far as I remember , doesn't even mention any such thing (Again , I might be forgetting but as far as I remember , there is no such thing in Qur'an) ... However , there is a hadith of Prophet Muhammad which says something like Islam will go East and West...Islam will enter in every house.. Something of that sort..

Scholars say that here , Prophet is saying that Islam will be embraced by the whole world one day.... 

It doesn't say anything regarding "Shari'a Law" ...  It doesn't say that 'Shari'a Law' will be established over the whole world. 

Peace!


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2012)

Auzer ji, is Shari'a Law a system _based_ _on_ information in the Koran and other sources, but not actually _explicitly written in _the Koran?

Thanks


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## Auzer (Jul 10, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Auzer ji, is Shari'a Law a system _based_ _on_ information in the Koran and other sources, but not actually _explicitly written in _the Koran?
> 
> Thanks



Yes , majority of 'Shari'a Law' , specially the 'state-level Shari'a laws' , are suppose to be _based_ upon Qur'an and Hadiths etc --They are not all written in Qur'an explicitly. 

Personal Shari'a Laws like no drinking , no pork , no pre-marial sex etc etc are relatively explicit and can be found in Qur'an/Hadiths directly.

Shari'a Law is not a straight forward issue. It is a very complex issue..just like all other legal codes of humans.... You need almost 5 to 6 years of study in classical Islamic legal code in order to be an 'expert' on Shari'a matters...

But here in America , people who haven't even read Qur'an are invited to news channels as 'Experts in Shari'a Law" lol 

... Basically , yes , you are right! Shari'a is not explicitly stated in Qur'an or Hadith..some is ..but not all..

icecreammunda


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## Rory (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, Auzerji

This might be going off topic but out of interest, what brought you to SPN to begin with?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 10, 2012)

Auzer Ji actively dispels dis-information, mis-information, slanted UN-information !! on SPN thats been posted by "muslims"/or muslims pretending to be sikhs, etc etc... He always manages to give the correct facts.... I like THAT.
SIKHS Need NOT worry about Islam/shariah law etc taking over the world..we will cross that bridge when its "built" ha ha..after all Sikhism was BORN in MUGHAL INDIA...when the Mughal Muslims were the most powerful empire !!! and what happened is history...:whatzpointsing:


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## Auzer (Jul 11, 2012)

Rory said:


> Thanks for the replies, Auzerji
> 
> This might be going off topic but out of interest, what brought you to SPN to begin with?



Well I have read much about religions... I even had a pocket size bible ... but mainly , my study was 'confined' to Islam and Christianity , since I used to refer them as "major religions" ...

But then , I came in contact with Sikhs here in U.S! I have many good Sikh friends...This made me interested in Sikhism and I learned about Sikhism from them...and they learned about Islam from me...

Hence my interest developed in Sikhism and I searched for Sikh forums on the internet...I joined one Sikh forum (not this one)...there , I saw some members posting the same old anti-Islamic rhetoric and when I tried to clear their mis-conceptions...I was labelled as "Muslim propagating his religion" and hence I was restricted on that forum... So I searched again and landed in this forum..and I'm still here 0
One little story though... One time , my Sikh friend asked me (in a serious tone) :

 " Hey Auzer , so you will also do 4 marriages? "  I was like "Uhhh why do you think that?" ...he was like "Don't you Muslims _have to _marry four women atleast" .. I was like "ahhhh I wish!" lol ...


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## Ruqa (Jul 11, 2012)

Auzer said:


> " Hey Auzer , so you will also do 4 marriages? "  I was like "Uhhh why do you think that?" ...he was like "Don't you Muslims _have to _marry four women atleast" .. I was like "ahhhh I wish!" lol ...



Bro! Seems to me that you're wishing alot of pain on yourself! But if being hen-pecked is your thing why don't you take yourself over to the Masjid and stand outside after salat with a sign saying 'WIVES WANTED! PHONE: ...' I heard something like that worked for someone once... I also heard some father stood outside yelling my daughter is a ripe apple waiting to be picked... True story, thats how the girl got her hubby, no joke! Lol


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## Rory (Jul 11, 2012)

Auzerji, there are a lot of anti-Islamic websites (I read websites of _all perspectives_, I see it only fair to read arguments from the contestants of each religion) who make a case that Moslems clearing up misconceptions is equal to taqayya. Now obviously I amn't saying _I_ believe this, but it probably explains a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment among Sikhs and other religions.


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## Searching (Jul 11, 2012)

Rory said:


> Auzerji, there are a lot of anti-Islamic websites (I read websites of _all perspectives_, I see it only fair to read arguments from the contestants of each religion) who make a case that Moslems clearing up misconceptions is equal to taqayya. Now obviously I amn't saying _I_ believe this, but it probably explains a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment among Sikhs and other religions.



I have seen a youtube video of very famous Muslim scholar, Zakir Naik doing just that.
There is a talk show in which he is asked why should Muslims be allowed to propagate their religion in other countries when they do not allow other people to propagate their religion in Muslim countries.
To this Mr ZN said that Islam is the only correct religion and how can we allow a wrong religion be taught in our country ?

Then in another video in UK a person asks this same question to Dr. Naik and he replies I cannot answer this. Each country has its own law and you have to check with them.

If a famous scholar like him hides the truth like this then either he is liar or he is practicing taqqya.


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## Searching (Jul 11, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHRaNE2XXVk&feature=related


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## Rory (Jul 11, 2012)

I can't watch the video at the moment 
But I know Zakir Naik is refuted even by many Islamic scholars who say he is a liar and a showman.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 11, 2012)

Rory said:


> Auzerji, there are a lot of anti-Islamic websites (I read websites of _all perspectives_, I see it only fair to read arguments from the contestants of each religion) who make a case that Moslems clearing up misconceptions is equal to taqayya. Now obviously I amn't saying _I_ believe this, but it probably explains a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment among Sikhs and other religions.




Contestants..?? taqyya..ANTI-ISLAMIC sentiment IN SIKHS..blah blah blah..??? it seems like  the fake and Sham WRESTLING CONTESTS shown on TV..lots of hoo ha throwing against the ropes, banging etc but all arranged for entertainment..imho RELIGION is much more personal and deeper than that....obvioulsy ???? or is it just like that WWW fake banging of bodies ?? SPN is not the place for such..here its religious for its own sake..not entertianment...gingerteakaur


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## Auzer (Jul 11, 2012)

Ruqa said:


> Bro! Seems to me that you're wishing alot of pain on yourself! But if being hen-pecked is your thing why don't you take yourself over to the Masjid and stand outside after salat with a sign saying 'WIVES WANTED! PHONE: ...' I heard something like that worked for someone once... I also heard some father stood outside yelling my daughter is a ripe apple waiting to be picked... True story, thats how the girl got her hubby, no joke! Lol



haha wth? lol

Well, in the Western communities , marriage  (specially of girls) becomes a serious issue... 

You have a smaller pool to pick your life-partner from... gingerteakaur


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## Auzer (Jul 11, 2012)

Rory said:


> Auzerji, there are a lot of anti-Islamic websites (I read websites of _all perspectives_, I see it only fair to read arguments from the contestants of each religion) who make a case that Moslems clearing up misconceptions is equal to taqayya. Now obviously I amn't saying _I_ believe this, but it probably explains a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment among Sikhs and other religions.



Oh yeah! I know all such sites.... One of my Muslim friend has _downloaded _EVERY major anti-Islamic website in his PC... He refute the points of anti-Islamic loons against Islam... You won't know but we Muslims have our own 'favorite' anti-Islamic sites...and we'll give reasons why we like this particular anti-Islamic site..like this site is organized..this site has great articles against Qur'an..this site is fun to be on etc etc.. Whereas people on those sites think that they are doing some great 'Jihad' that will lead to downfall of Islam lol

On a good note though : These abundant anti-Islamic websites have caused Islamic Apologetics to rise , Mashallah..

Anyways , coming to the topic of Taqayyah ... most Muslims don't even know what this word mean.... I came to know of this word when some Christian poster accused me of 'doing taqqayah' about 2 years ago...I was like "What is this?"  ...then I googled the word and found the meaning of it...

Jews were accused of same in the Nazi Germany. When Jews tried to explain themselves , Nazis told people "The Jew is commanded to lie in his faith. How can you believe anything coming from the Jew?" ...This is a classical fear-mongering technique that effects people's psychology..People would think "no no , Muslims aren't lying..there is no taqqiyah....but.._uhhhhhh what if this is true_?" This is a classical propaganda tactic... In psychology classes , you will read about it ...

 In the Sunni Jurisdiction (90% of Islam) the word taqqiya *doesn't* even _exist_.. It exists in "Shi'a" jurisdiction and it means to 'hide your faith under the threat of persecution' ..Like If any Hitler rises up again and start killing Muslims (like he did to Jews) and his soldiers are coming home to home and asking "Are you Muslim" and if the answer is yes then the male of the house is killed,women/daughters are raped or taken away etc etc..Then ONLY in such situations ..It is allowed to hide your faith by 'lying' that you are not a Muslim. And I am pretty much O.K with it...ANYONE will agree that 'lying' in such condition is not morally wrong.

Anti-Islam loons will argue "Muslims lie to further their faith" ..Well lets try that with simple logic : Suppose I'm a liar doing Taqqiyah...I tell you..Islam is this and that..great..amazing..peaceful..etc...and you convert! Now after you have 'converted' , you will start practicing Islam, right? And you will come to know that "Oh no , all that I was told was BS..Actual Islam demands me to do this this this bad stuff" ..Would you even remain a Muslim? Does this even make any sense? ... smh ..


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## Auzer (Jul 11, 2012)

Searching said:


> I have seen a youtube video of very famous Muslim scholar, Zakir Naik doing just that.
> There is a talk show in which he is asked why should Muslims be allowed to propagate their religion in other countries when they do not allow other people to propagate their religion in Muslim countries.
> To this Mr ZN said that Islam is the only correct religion and how can we allow a wrong religion be taught in our country ?
> 
> ...



First thing : Zakir Naik is NOT a scholar. He is a 'debater' ..and that too..a bad one. In Islamic Apologetic community today , there are way , way more better and well-read debaters than Naik. Do you know about Shabbir Ally? Bassam Zwadi? Dr Jamal Badawi? All of them are way bigger names than Naik for people who _follow_ inter-religious dialogue..But for Indian and Pakistani Muslims , who don't even know what is 'apologetics' mean , Naik is a biggg name offcourse...So Naik is not a scholar. Even the guy who inspired Naik, "Sheikh Ahmed Deedat" , used to say that don't ask questions about 'Fiqh' ..he is no scholar of Islam..but just a debater...

Secondly , I don't think Naik is lying or doing taqqiyah etc.. I just think that Dr Zakir Naik's opinion has evolved and become more 'mature' ...The video where Naik is answering the Cambridge student is relatively recent..but the video in which Naik is answering the call is from years ago...So it is quite clear that Naik opinion on the issue has evolved. This happens all the time..My opinion of certain Islamic aspects was very different and now it is very different. Your world view expands as you read and experience more..but it doesn't mean that I'm practicing 'taqqiyah' now cuz now I don't believe what I used to believe..etc. ..:grinningkaur:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2012)

Auzer said:


> Oh yeah! I know all such sites.... One of my Muslim friend has _downloaded _EVERY major anti-Islamic website in his PC... He refute the points of anti-Islamic loons against Islam... You won't know but we Muslims have our own 'favorite' anti-Islamic sites...and we'll give reasons why we like this particular anti-Islamic site..like this site is organized..this site has great articles against Qur'an..this site is fun to be on etc etc.. Whereas people on those sites think that they are doing some great 'Jihad' that will lead to downfall of Islam lol
> 
> On a good note though : These abundant anti-Islamic websites have caused Islamic Apologetics to rise , Mashallah..
> 
> ...



NOT applicable to SIKH....It was precisely to STOP such a "lie" even unintentionally that the Khalsa was Commanded to wear the 5 K ..KESH, DASTAAR, KIRPAN Kachhera Karra so that a SINGH would be VISIBLE in a crowd of Hundreds of thousands...  This is why SIKHS in dastaars STAND OUT even at the expense of being MISTAKEN for Al Qaeda/Muslim Terrorists/suicide bombers rabble rousers etc etc and GETTING KILLED that SIKHS REFUSE to do away with these ID.... Many SIKHS have been killed by extremists who mistaken ID them as Muslim terrorists..and SIKHS were under a lot of pressure to TELL THE WORLD THAT WE ARE *NOT* MUSLIMS..but we have decided to AVOID that line of reasoning and instead concentrate on telling the world that *WE ARE SIKHS*...that is *DRAW a LONGER LINE* instead of trying to* ERASE* somebody else line to  make our LINE appear longer than his... 

I read  a story of a Catholic Nun who was aboard a plane wearing her HABIT...some ignorant air hostess mistook her for a MUSLIM simply because the NUN didnt speak English...and the NUN was FORCED to DISEMBARK....a few seats behin the NUN was a REAL MUSLIM..couple and they were heard LAUGHING..they thought it was so funny to see a catholic Nun being forced OFF a plane for mistaken for a Muslim while the REAL MUSLIM was IGNORED !! IF a KHALSA SIKH had been in that situation...there would be no such ID crisis..becasue He would ahev Stood up and declared..I AM SIKH...that NUN is NOT a SIKH...if you have a problem..come see me...

You see The SECOND MOST important attribute of The Creator in SIKHISM..is SATNAAM - ETERNAL TRUTH...so a Sikh never lies.even at pain of DEATH. Many HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Sikh martyrs at the hands of the Mughals in india are testimony to Keeping the FAITH...a SIKH will die rather than HIDE his FAITH.


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## Ishna (Jul 12, 2012)

> so that a SINGH would be VISIBLE in a crowd of Hundreds of thousands


 
And the Kaurs, or not really?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2012)

Gyaniji

In the world we live in today, being tactful, playing mind games, they are all needed to some extent. I am sorry to say, but if some madman broke into my shop right now, with a gun, and threatened to kill me if I was Sikh, I would lie. What purpose would telling the truth to a madman achieve? I think there are occasions where one should use discretion, that is what Bani teaches us surely. Frankly, if some unhinged person wanted me to confess to wearing ladies underwear, I would be more than happy to do so. 

This does not apply to the Sikh Martyrs that were killed by the Mughals, in that situation, I would try and do the same, however, and this has been on my mind a lot, I do believe that as Sikhs, sometimes it is better to go along with the game with a view to fighting another day. 

As precedent, I would like to recount Bhai Jiwan Singh. Bhaiji appeared at Chamkaur Sahib dressed as the Guru, fooling the Mughal army into thinking Guruji was still present, whilst Guruji, as commanded by the Khalsa, made his escape, to fight another day. I absolutely think that the correct action was taken by the Khalsa, but was this not a lie of sorts, surely in the face of tyranny, we should stand strong and tall, but this episode speaks volumes to me, nothing is black and white, Yes, we should live truthfully, and honestly, but also use our brains and our discretion, 

comments and corrections welcome


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## Searching (Jul 12, 2012)

> > > Secondly , I don't think Naik is lying or doing taqqiyah etc.. I just think that Dr Zakir Naik's opinion has evolved and become more 'mature' ...The video where Naik is answering the Cambridge student is relatively recent..but the video in which Naik is answering the call is from years ago...So it is quite clear that Naik opinion on the issue has evolved. This happens all the time..My opinion of certain Islamic aspects was very different and now it is very different. Your world view expands as you read and experience more..but it doesn't mean that I'm practicing 'taqqiyah' now cuz now I don't believe what I used to believe..etc. ..



Well if his view has evolved the he should have answered "Yes other religions can be preached in Islamic countries" But all he said was you have to check with the country about its law"
Its not a mature answer at all. He is simply evading the issue.


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## Searching (Jul 12, 2012)

> > Anti-Islam loons will argue "Muslims lie to further their faith" ..Well lets try that with simple logic : Suppose I'm a liar doing Taqqiyah...I tell you..Islam is this and that..great..amazing..peaceful..etc...and you convert! Now after you have 'converted' , you will start practicing Islam, right? And you will come to know that "Oh no , all that I was told was BS..Actual Islam demands me to do this this this bad stuff" ..Would you even remain a Muslim? Does this even make any sense? ... smh ..



In some countries where apostasy is punishable by death, it makes a lot of sense. But yes, not everywhere.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2012)

Dr Zakir Naik gives an example...suppose you wnat to hire a teacher to teach maths. 2 candidiates appear for the interview. You ask them..what is 2+2 and One answers 4 the other replies 5..do you honestly retain the second as  a maths teacher ?? So its with Islam..it answers 4 while all the other religions say 5..so honestly..which one is TRUTH ?? Ha ha. Only the Most Ignorant FOOl would be fooled by such "logic" ..but nearly everyone claps dr naik louldy !!....who is to inform the likes of dr naik that one doenst choose ones religion based on what the Bible says..Koran says..or whatever...and one doesnt chose maths teachers based on 2+2 ONLY...Thats WHY he EVADED the Question..because a Dr naik type would evade rather than speak the TRUTH.....


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gyaniji
> 
> In the world we live in today, being tactful, playing mind games, they are all needed to some extent. I am sorry to say, but if some madman broke into my shop right now, with a gun, and threatened to kill me if I was Sikh, I would lie. What purpose would telling the truth to a madman achieve? I think there are occasions where one should use discretion, that is what Bani teaches us surely. Frankly, if some unhinged person wanted me to confess to wearing ladies underwear, I would be more than happy to do so.
> 
> ...



I respectfully and completely DISAGREE Harry Ji.
That would be a gross insult to even the YOUNGEST SIKH Martyrs - Zorawar Singh fateh Singh Ji. They were indeed "told"..convert NOW..live life, enjoy life..and Fight another day...they even refused to "bow inadvertantly" by passing through a small HOLE..LEGS FIRST...as the HOLE was an invention by a crafty HINDU DIWAN of the Suba who hatched this plan to Force the two sahibzadahs to BOW to the Suba..that when they enter the hole they would BOW their heads and we can all Clap and say..THEY HAVE BOWED..they have BOWED..PERIOD. They have ACCEPTED the Suba as the Master.Period.
Bhai mani Singh ji was also given this option. Convert publicly..then go off and be a Sikh again in Private. Bhai Mani Singh ji replied..Can I be ever TRUSTED by anyone ever...If YOU can prove that i did convert even for a second..even temporarily..even as a FAKE MUSLIM ?? I would arther be a DEAD SIKH than a Fake Muslim and ALIVE.
Bhagat Singh cut his hair...Udham Singh cut his hair..to evade the British Govt...many Sikhs did the same thing in 1984 in Delhi etc to "survive..and Fight " another day...ALL made thei CHOICES based on their OWN PRIORITIES..not the Priority of GURMATT or Sikh History. The Sikhs in Saragharree could have survived IF they SURRENDERED ??..After all they were BRITISH soldiers..BUT NO..they were SIKHS FIRST.

Today INDIA honours bahgat and udham more than Kartar Singh sarabha who was just 17 when he was HANGED for Treason against the British..( fighting for Indian Independence)...Bhagat MURDERED a INNOCENT BRITISH POLICE inspector..and threw a Bomb in Punjab Assembly...Udham murdered the British perpertrator of Jallinhwlaah bagh massacre...while KS Sarabha just FOUGHT for Indian independence with* IDEAS*..just like Maharaj Singh, Ram Singh namdharee etc who began the Movement of Boycott British Goods and use Indian made products..an *idea* that Gandhi later "misappropriated". Today sikhs who fight with *IDEAS*..and those who actually blew up people like Beant CM are BOTH cast in the SAME BASKET _*TERRORIST worthy of HANGING.

A SIKH worth his salt should never compromise.period. A mad man that attacks your shop...is he any less MAD than Beanta CM..or Hitler ..Or Suba of Sirhind..or Emperor Jehangir..Emperor ShahJehan..Emperor Aurengzeb or the MOBS in Delhi streets Nov 1984..or the attackers in Bluestar ??? Its a Matter of PERCEPTION...a PRINCIPLE is a PRINCIPLE..when face to face  with Babar in Emnabaad..or Aurengzeb in Chandni Chowk..or the 10,000 screaming Afghans outside the walls of Saragharree..or the Jalaad ready to SKIP/short cut his job/orders to cut JOINT BY JOINT who is REPRIMANDED by Bhai Mani Singh to "Follow your orders please and CUT my JOINTS one by one..or YOU are NOT doing your JOB and cheating your Master !! That harry ji is Matter of Principle.
*


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## Ishna (Jul 12, 2012)

Standing up against tyrants is one thing, sacrificing yourself for a madman for nothing is quite another. One can't compare the fearless sahibzadey standing up against an *emperor* and sacrificing their lives for the cause to Harry ji getting his beard blown off by some looney in his shop.

Harry ji hasn't specified the lead-up to the madman being in his shop.  Is it part of a progrom or a 1-off act of looney violence that won't make a dent in society's mind anyway?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2012)

AND a short query from a student while were discussing this just now...Since the person in the shop is MAD...what makes you sure he wont change his mind..*I ONLY KILL* those who are *NOT* Sikhs ?? Will you then change your story and Say..NO NO I am a SIKH...and he then laughs..thats right bro..i really KILL SIKHS !! i cheated YOU ha ha..a Mad man is a mad man...whos to argue with a mad man ???

BS Rajoanna actually killed no one..he has *ADMITTED* he did...do you think the Supreme Court will RELEASE HIM IF he now Converts to Hinduism ?? Convicted *HINDUS* have been released from hanging... A man was before the Supreme Court of India accused of "beating his wife"...his defence..My Lord..I wasnt "beating" my wife..I was Just *THINKING* about beating her...*SAME THING* said the three Judges..Fined Rs 1 lakh. case closed. In a Hour the man was Back in court...accusation..He is REFUSING TO PAY the Fine. The accused says..Your Honour..I was THINKING of PAYING the Fine..and you people just said that "*THINKING* about it and *DOING* IT" are the *SAME*..so I have actually PAID the Fine for Beating my wife. SO rajoanna has a very good chance of being HANGED for his "admission"...while some who actually and really murdered living persons were just commuted by the outgoing President...its a matter of perception is it not..who is mad or not ??


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## Ishna (Jul 12, 2012)

It's still comparing acts of sacrifice for the community with the death of a man for no real cause.


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## Rory (Jul 12, 2012)

I agree with Gyani-ji on this, in that a Sikh ideally should not decide if he lies or not based on the position of a persecutor.. I know this sounds _rich_ coming from a very new Sikh like me, but I don't think it should make a difference if it is an emperor or some madman with a vendetta for Sikhs. I don't think lying is permissible in either case.

As for Harry-ji who said essentially "what's the use of telling the truth if you just wind up dead" (sorry if I'm para-phrasing here, but this I believe is the jist of what you said) - have we then learnt nothing from every Sikh martyr ever..?

I'm sorry if I sound a little arrogant, I know I am only new and so my views are probably really naive. It's just how I feel.


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## Rory (Jul 12, 2012)

Also Auzerji, thanks for clearing up the definition of taqayya.
If your friend has a website, can you link me?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2012)

Ishna said:


> And the Kaurs, or not really?



There is no Discrimination against Kaurs..they get the exact SAME Pahul, the exact same kakaars etc...and Kaurs like Mai Bhago showed the exact same mettle on the battlefield as Singhs and  many others as Bhai Ghaniyah Ji too.


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## Ishna (Jul 12, 2012)

And yet most of the Kaurs you see wearing full bana are 3HO!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2012)

Ishna said:


> And yet most of the Kaurs you see wearing full bana are 3HO!




ha Ha RIGHT..just as the Least number of  Christians are in *Jerusalem* ???  Ideally Jerusalem should be 100% Christian..NO ?  

Its said that God threw two pieces of garbage out..the Sikhs picked out ALCOHOL..and the MUSLIMS picked TOBACCO....ALTHOUGH BOTH RELIGIONS actually PROHIBIT BOTH "garbage"...Sikhs drink like fish and Muslims smoke like chimneys...  SO the 3HO Sikhs wear FULL BANNA..and accompany that Good Point with all sorts of Yogas, astrology, numerology nonsense which is NOT Gurmatt at all...while "other Sikhs dont wear banna but dont yoga astral travel etc..ha ha..NONE is 100% perfect a s per Gurmatt in SGGS,.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I respectfully and completely DISAGREE Harry Ji.
> That would be a gross insult to even the YOUNGEST SIKH Martyrs - Zorawar Singh fateh Singh Ji. They were indeed "told"..convert NOW..live life, enjoy life..and Fight another day...they even refused to "bow inadvertantly" by passing through a small HOLE..LEGS FIRST...as the HOLE was an invention by a crafty HINDU DIWAN of the Suba who hatched this plan to Force the two sahibzadahs to BOW to the Suba..that when they enter the hole they would BOW their heads and we can all Clap and say..THEY HAVE BOWED..they have BOWED..PERIOD. They have ACCEPTED the Suba as the Master.Period.
> Bhai mani Singh ji was also given this option. Convert publicly..then go off and be a Sikh again in Private. Bhai Mani Singh ji replied..Can I be ever TRUSTED by anyone ever...If YOU can prove that i did convert even for a second..even temporarily..even as a FAKE MUSLIM ?? I would arther be a DEAD SIKH than a Fake Muslim and ALIVE.
> Bhagat Singh cut his hair...Udham Singh cut his hair..to evade the British Govt...many Sikhs did the same thing in 1984 in Delhi etc to "survive..and Fight " another day...ALL made thei CHOICES based on their OWN PRIORITIES..not the Priority of GURMATT or Sikh History. The Sikhs in Saragharree could have survived IF they SURRENDERED ??..After all they were BRITISH soldiers..BUT NO..they were SIKHS FIRST.
> ...



Gyaniji

Excellent reply, and frankly, although I have stated my position, my internal litmus paper was never quite happy with it. I am used to using humour and buffoonery to diffuse situations, reading your reply makes me wonder whether  I could save myself a lot of time by just reacting in Hukam, and allowing events to follow the natural order. If I am brutally honest, in the hairiest of situations there are a few moments of fear until control of the situation is regained, like the time a customer pulled a knife on me, in his eyes, I could see he had no reservations about using it, I wish I had been brave enough to rip my shirt open, and say something particularly fitting, but he would have probably laughed at my baboon like hairy belly.

Most bullies are cowards, the ones with brains will respect firmness and bravery, what worries me are the mentally unhinged, the ones you cannot reason with, the ones that given sight of a bare chest will stab you anyway and giggle manically. 

Having given the matter some thought, and given the concept of Hukam, I have to concede your argument.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 13, 2012)

harry Ji...we are actually on the exact same wavelength...108.55FMgingerteakaurgingerteakaurgingerteakaur:grinningsingh:


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## itsmaneet (Jul 13, 2012)

Shariah & implications for Sikhs?

What kinda quest is this...can somebody please elaborate?


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## Rory (Jul 13, 2012)

It's all in the original post, really, maneet-ji


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> harry Ji...we are actually on the exact same wavelength...108.55FMgingerteakaurgingerteakaurgingerteakaur:grinningsingh:


 I have tuned to this Gyaniji, and it is full of cheesy love songs about the sort of love one only dreams of, the unachievable impossible love that we all yearn for but know that it could not exist with another human being. 

are you sure this is the correct wavelength, I quite like Arthur Lee myself, he used to be something of a hero


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