# Same Sex Marriage Ceremonies In Gurdwara



## vegangoth (Jul 4, 2011)

This isn't a topic per say on Homosexuality and Sikhism ( as I know there are a ton of discussions on here already) but I'm interested to know if a same sex Sikh couple, who are in a committed and faithful relationship can get married in a Gurdwara? Apologies if there is a thread on this already, I must have missed it.


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## Archived_Member16 (Jul 4, 2011)

*Previous postings on the topic:*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-news/25742-sikh-leader-india-no-gay-marriage.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*WWW.SARBAT.NET - Sikh Views on
Same Sex
Relationships*

Sikh Dharma is a philosophy which believes in
equality and acceptance for all, and Guru Gobind
Singh, the Tenth Guru, declared that “The whole
of mankind should be viewed as one”.

The Guru Granth Sahib does not mention homosexuality.
However, the ten living Gurus were
aware of homosexuality at the time that the Guru
Granth Sahib was compiled as there were a number
of openly gay saints during the 16th and 17th
Centuries in the Indian Subcontinent.

One openly gay saint is Sarmad, who was a follower
of Mian Mir, the Muslim Pir who is believed
to have laid the foundation stone of the Harimandir
Sahib (Golden Temple), the most important
of Sikh gurdwaras, in 1588.

If the ten living Gurus believed homosexuality to
be sinful, then they would have addressed the
subject within the Guru Granth Sahib, and the fact
that it has been ignored suggests that the Gurus
considered it to be inconsequential because the
primary function of dharma is to unite the individual
soul which is genderless with the supreme soul
which is also genderless.

The Lavaan are non-gender specific, and so samesex
marriage is possible within Sikh Dharma.

*However, most gurdwaras in the current time (Sikh
places of worship) would be reluctant to conduct a
same-sex marriage because of an edict made by
the Jathedar (Head Priest) of the Akal Takht in
2005 which banned gay marriages. It should be
noted that Sikh Dharma as a philosophy does not
support a priesthood system, and many such
edicts have been ignored by the Sikh community
as a whole such as eating on floors vs eating on
tables.*

*Sikh Dharma Vs Indian Culture*

Although Sikh philosophy is a liberal and all encompassing,
Punjabi and Indian culture is extremely
conservative. This can lead to instances
where some Sikhs hold conservative views which
stem from Punjabi culture but which the individual
may believe to be a part of Sikh philosophy.

An area where this disparity is evident is that of
sexuality, with Punjabi culture being very homophobic
whilst Sikh philosophy teaching the idea of
oneness, respect and tolerance of all people.

Gristhi Jeevan, or living the life of a householder,
applies equally to same-sex relationships as it
does to heterosexual relationships. There are no
barriers to maintaining a family lifestyle within a
same-sex relationship, for example, by adopting
children.

It is possible to be Sikh and have a monogamous
same-sex relationship, as long as one ensures
that the relationship does not become filled with
‘Kaam’ and one maintains a Sikh lifestyle in accordance
with all of the various tenets of the religion.

Although marriage is the ideal, it may not be
possible to get married due to the reluctance of
the gurdwara, and so a monogamous relationship
is to be preferred as an alternative.

source: http://www.sarbat.net/sikhism_and_same_sex_relationships.pdf

WWW.SARBAT.NET
_Sarbat.Net is the website for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual
and Transgendered Sikhs.
Established in 2007, it takes its name from the final
line of the Ardas (the congretional Prayer of
Supplication), and it refers to the Sikh concept of
happiness and well-being for all mankind_


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 4, 2011)

> If the ten living Gurus believed homosexuality to
> be sinful, then they would have addressed the
> subject within the Guru Granth Sahib



If Gurus can get widows remarried, they would have surely helped people of the same sex. Just my two cents.

I am not against homosexuality (as of course nothing is in my hands!) and approve of civil ceremony for their matrimony. But taking part in Anand Karaj is too much. It is asking for something without meeting the primary criteria.. of husband and wife.

As for the website sarbat.net, I don't approve of it much. For they are some 'modern' Sikhs who just happen to be together because of their homosexuality. They are LGBT by choice (and birth) but Sikhs by birth only.


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## Ishna (Jul 4, 2011)

Kanwaljit ji, may I respectfully ask how a person is Sikh by birth but possibly not LGBT by birth?

My understanding was that you're Sikh my your own good fortune and Sikhs are self-made (that is, you the individual puts in the effort to be Sikh but with Waheguru's kirpa), not made by birth, lineage, caste, custom, society, etc.

From my understanding a LGBT person is usually born that way, they don't have the same impulses that "straight" people do. 

So I would respectully disagree and say that people choose to be Sikh and are born LGBT/straight, rather than the other way around.

Of course this is all in the context of hukam, so the technicalities are really moot.


This is my third attempt at writing a response to the initial question, and really, the issue is much bigger than just the question 'can same-gender people be married in a Gurdwara'.  It comes right back to the individual Sikh mindset before we even come *close* to answering the question.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 5, 2011)

I have not missed the point that LGBT person is born that way:



> They are LGBT by choice (and *birth*) but Sikhs by birth only.



What I am saying is that most of the LGBT Sikhs (I feel) are more concerned about their sexuality, and call themselves Sikhs just because they are from Sikh family.


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## vegangoth (Jul 5, 2011)

Ha! That link just showed me that I commented on the very same subject a while back, guess my memory is worse that I thought lol.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 5, 2011)

Sorry excuse my ignorance, what is LGBT, and for that matter what is SPGC, are they related in any way?


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## Ishna (Jul 5, 2011)

*Kanwaljit ji*, I think I misunderstood the sentence.  I read it as 'everyone can be LBGT by choice but Sikhs only by birth', whereas I think you meant to apply the statement to LGBT people only, and with your clarifying statement I see what you mean.

I haven't had much to do with the LGBT Sikh community so I don't know much about how they feel about their Sikhi in relation to their LGBT and their life experiences with what came first, their Sikhi or their sexuality.  I can say that my personal experiences with other LGBT people (non-Sikh) have given me the impression that their sexuality comes first in their lives, not their spirituality.  Then again I meet a lot of straight people who put their sexuality first too!!!

*Harry ji*, LGBT stands for 'lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered'.  SGPC stands for Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.



> *A statutory body comprising elected representatives of the Sikhs concerned primarily with the management of sacred Sikh shrines under its control within the territorial limits of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and the Union territory of Chandigarh*.


http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/SGPC

It would be funny if they were related!! hahahaha


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## Randip Singh (Jul 5, 2011)

Pfft.

What's the problem?

I really see no problem. Anand Karaj wedding ceremony is about the Union of two souls. The soul has no gender, so does the outer shell really matter?


I am sure if the Guru's had a real objection to Gay people they would have denounced them. They didn't hence no problem.

It must be noted that the problem with Homosexuality only started when the British came  in with their christian values.


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## Ishna (Jul 5, 2011)

I would imagine the Muslims also have doctrines against homosexuality, and it would be interesting to see what impact they had on the homosexual people in India prior to the arrival of the British.

I say imagine because I have no idea of the facts and will look into it. I could be wrong.


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## Ishna (Jul 5, 2011)

> Appealing to the government not to be influenced by the "decadent trends of the Western culture" and not to give in to the demands of a minuscule minority, the statement said the government should not test the patience of the silent vast majority of the country which abhors such behaviour.



http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Homosexuals_(India)

poor Brits, they're copping it both ways! lol  On one hand Randip ji says homosexuality wasn't an issue in India until the British came along, on the other the source quoted says it's their bad influence ENCOURAGING homosexuality in India!

At any rate, it's probably off topic.


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## spnadmin (Jul 5, 2011)

There is significant historical evidence to support Randip's perspective. Of course homosexuality existed in the history of Punjab. Homosexuals had culturally defined roles within the social structure of India. Thus there were places where they fit in. Everyone knew who was gay in the pind. Little was made of it. The issue only boomed into controversy during the raj.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 5, 2011)

US Embassy hosts Pakistan's first gay pride celebration
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Pakis...ion-sparks-online-debate/Article1-716777.aspx


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 5, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I would imagine the Muslims also have doctrines against homosexuality, and it would be interesting to see what impact they had on the homosexual people in India prior to the arrival of the British.
> 
> I say imagine because I have no idea of the facts and will look into it. I could be wrong.



Ishna ji excerpted below some from a nice article but not checked for authenticity of sources quoted by the writer,

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm



> *The Qur'an and Homosexuality: *
> There are five references in the Qur'an which have been  cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with  effeminate men and "masculine women." The two main references to  homosexual behavior are:
> 
> "We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit  lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For  ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a  people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81
> ...


Quite revealing in the following,



> *Treatment of homosexuals within Islam: *
> According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a  consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally  heterosexual. 5 Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and  perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and  jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. They differ in terms of  penalty:
> 
> The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.
> ...


Just a perspective to philosophize via comparisons.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Jul 5, 2011)

Gurbani talks about the evils of lust and does not discuss sexuality so personally I do not have a problem with gay marriage in Gurdwara as long as the couple agree to follow Sikh principles. However, until the ruling by the Akal Takht is reversed, it cannot be practiced in Gurdwara. Oneday....


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## Ishna (Jul 5, 2011)

What were the circumstances around the Akal Takht making that decision? Why do they see anything wrong with it?

And just to clarify, my reaction to Randip ji's British comment was such because I thought the comment was flippant since i lack the background knowledge that all was well with Indian gays before they came along.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 5, 2011)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> US Embassy hosts Pakistan's first gay pride celebration
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/Pakis...ion-sparks-online-debate/Article1-716777.aspx


Kanwaljit Singh ji it appears America just has a knack to get involved in controversies.  Expect a Pakistan Taliban retaliation in the time to come.  When is USA going to get involved in the first "true democracy celebration in Pakistan" or is it not part of their strategic plan!  lol

Sat Sri Akal and thanks for the post.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 5, 2011)

Ishna said:


> What were the circumstances around the Akal Takht making that decision? Why do they see anything wrong with it?
> 
> And just to clarify, my reaction to Randip ji's British comment was such because I thought the comment was flippant since i lack the background knowledge that all was well with Indian gays before they came along.


Ishna ji I believe spnadmin ji took some liberties about gays in Pinds (villages) being happy as a pig in muck.  Almost all gays have been focus of jokes and ridicule but not much violence.  Villagers perhaps appreciated gays as there would be less danger for their girls, a concern of family respect and dignity in traditional villages.  Furthermore gays were always and almost 100% from non dominant families and lower classes (I know it is against Sikhi but I don't know how to classify it otherwise to describe the situation).  Gays were also forced to or choose to act docile in local environments and hence less visibility.  The gay characters in Indian cinema were butt of jokes or funnies and filler segments.

Intersex people were quite common in villages as street performers.  They will come to a house which had an auspicious occasion (birth of a child, wedding, etc.) and sing/dance provocatively.  They will threaten to expose their privates if the home owners wouldn't amply reward them.  This was just an empty threat just to get the kids excited and I never saw it materialize even once .

Hope it clarifies.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jul 6, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

I never said any of this. Where did I even imply "happy as a pig in muck?"



> Ishna ji I believe spnadmin ji took some liberties about gays in Pinds (villages) being happy as a pig in muck.



Of course the activities of gays in Punjab were governed by strict cultural norms...just like the lives of everyone else btw who lived in traditional Punjab. No liberties were taken by me. It is the case that gays had less visibility. Quite true.

However, at weddings they were often called to entertain, and they did so on the outskirts of villages, in special areas. Women did not attend. That would be one example of a cultural prescribed role. 

You can evaluate my comments by reading the book: East of Indus, My Memories of Old Punjab, by Gurnam S. Brard. He tells the story of his childhood before and after partition, with many cultural references to historical periods, often as far back as 1000 AD/CE. This book paints a picture of the life of Jat Sikhs in Punjab that is starkly different from the hard and clear principles put forth by many on threads here at SPN. As if all of Sikhi were one homogenized experience. For example



> His family’s attitude towards the Sikh religion was typical of a Jat family. The family patriarch uncle Tiloka and others went to Gurdwara only on Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh’s birthdays and were pretty superstitious. As a child though Gurnam equated Sikh Gurus with Gods and prayed to Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh, yet in real difficulty, he would even remember Ram, Krishna or Buddha. “it did not hurt to ask for additional help” as young Gurnam rationalized. Even now Gurnam would not wash his hair on a Tuesday. His father, however, was influenced by Singh Sabha reforms. He was an Amritdhari Sikh, regular in his nitnem and Gurdwara visits. He wanted to give his children the best education available. No wonder his sons rose to high positions. The eldest Kartar was Colonel in Indian army, Gurnam earned a Ph. D from an American university, Gurdial rose to be a Major-General and youngest Kirpal became a medical doctor. Uncle Tiloka, however, was content if Gurnam passed grade 8 and became a patwari. from a review by Jagpal S. Tiwana http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022008/brard.htm



It's a long book, with some dead zones in it. But gives the living context of rural Punjab from whence contemporary Sikhism emerged. For sure he gave no examples where gays were persecuted that I can recall.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 6, 2011)

spnadmin ji sorry if I generalized.



> Little was made of it.
> 
> _spnadmin ji, this is not my experience living in a village post partition.
> 
> ...


But if it is an autobiography he has rights but if it is scholarly generalizations I cannot comment further till I read the book.  It sounds very crazy.

Any way sorry this may be not proper for this thread!

Let me know I can delete it if so desired.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 6, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Ishna ji I believe spnadmin ji took some liberties about gays in Pinds (villages) being happy as a pig in muck. Almost all gays have been focus of jokes and ridicule but not much violence. Villagers perhaps appreciated gays as there would be less danger for their girls, a concern of family respect and dignity in traditional villages. Furthermore gays were always and almost 100% from non dominant families and lower classes (I know it is against Sikhi but I don't know how to classify it otherwise to describe the situation). Gays were also forced to or choose to act docile in local environments and hence less visibility. The gay characters in Indian cinema were butt of jokes or funnies and filler segments.
> 
> Intersex people were quite common in villages as street performers. They will come to a house which had an auspicious occasion (birth of a child, wedding, etc.) and sing/dance provocatively. They will threaten to expose their privates if the home owners wouldn't amply reward them. This was just an empty threat just to get the kids excited and I never saw it materialize even once .
> 
> ...


 
Interestingly we treat Sikandar or Alexander the Great as a God in Punjab and yet he was Gay?

I think your perspective is based on the last 100 years. If you go to pre-British era's homosexuality was not an issue. If it was an issue the Guru's would have condemned it openly.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 6, 2011)

I think the reason homosexuality is not an issue,  is the western misconception relating to promiscuity, which possibly is not shared in the east,


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## kds1980 (Jul 6, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> Interestingly we treat Sikandar or Alexander the Great as a God in Punjab and yet he was Gay?
> 
> I think your perspective is based on the last 100 years. If you go to pre-British era's homosexuality was not an issue. If it was an issue the Guru's would have condemned it openly.



Did Guru's condemn beastality ? so does it mean that it is acceptable in Sikhism?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 6, 2011)

kdsji, 

Firstly, I owe you an apology, in a previous post, I may have intimated that you were quite orthodox, I have since realised I actually confused you with someone else, so sorry. 

I would like to say how much I enjoy your postings, you always seem to find the chink in the armour that everyone else has missed, and speaking for myself, it always gets me thinking, so dear brother, thank you!

My thoughts would be that the Guru's did not condemn it, as it possibly was not as prevalent as it is now, although even now,I know very few people that indulge in it, actually I know of no one, whereas homosexuality has been around and practiced from day 1.


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## kds1980 (Jul 6, 2011)

> kdsji,
> 
> Firstly, I owe you an apology, in a previous post, I may have intimated that you were quite orthodox, I have since realised I actually confused you with someone else, so sorry.



Harry ji 

I am not a liberal and I don't have much Liberal thinking



> I would like to say how much I enjoy your postings, you always seem to find the chink in the armour that everyone else has missed, and speaking for myself, it always gets me thinking, so dear brother, thank you!
> 
> My thoughts would be that the Guru's did not condemn it, as it possibly was not as prevalent as it is now, although even now,I know very few people that indulge in it, actually I know of no one, whereas homosexuality has been around and practiced from day 1.



Homosexuality to me is still a topic  on which I don't want to toe the line of what west says.What surprises me the most is that how these days some western  Sikhs are coming in full support of homosexuality ,I want to know the reason why? Were sikhs supporting homosexuality 20-30 years back or is it just an another attempt from our side to copy west so we can show them How liberal and modern we are?


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 6, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> Interestingly we treat Sikandar or Alexander the Great as a God in Punjab and yet he was Gay?
> 
> I think your perspective is based on the last 100 years. If you go to pre-British era's homosexuality was not an issue. If it was an issue the Guru's would have condemned it openly.


Randip Singh ji my statements and posts are based on my personal experiences and information received from my parents so 100 year comment is valid.

Can you name a village where Sikandar the Great is treated as God?  I know he wasn't in my village or villages I traveled to.  That is if common folks even knew who he was!  I believe Maharaja Ranjit Singh and other Rajahs were supplied arms by French and Germans and there are blue and green eyed people in Punjab whether from the British or from the French cross pollination.

I have no issue people being gay or lesbian or bisexual or transsexual.  That is part of creation trying out things for size.  If it is a trait required for long term survival of humans it will survive and grow.  Otherwise it won't.  Timelines are generations, hundreds of years, etc.

I am with KDS1980 ji in terms of to ridiculous comments like if it is wrong it would have been condemned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  This is a wiser forum to be using such an argument which I find little flippant.  I shouldn't address but I will in case yours is coming from a serious thought process.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and our Gurus tackle issued with the leaders, the practices that such followed as a way to understand and claimed ways to reach God (Hindus and Muslims generally), to the people misguiding people and fleecing them (Brahmins predominantly), finally any strong third tier items.  Guru ji did not focus on people's bedroom rituals.  What would they have said if asked, I don't know!  Perhaps the issue would have been cut to measure like a very smart previous Prime Minister of Canada.  Pierre Elliot Trudeau stated , "*There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation*".  I am of the like opinion.

On Anand Karaj I believe you are taking a very restrictive view "as the joining of souls".  It is a spiritual and a social/communal ceremony.  It announces that let no one be in doubt that union of marriage has taken place from hereon these two people are husband and wife.  Their children from the union of a man and a woman  are not illegitimate as viewed by society, their house where the cohabit is not a house of ill repute, let no one see the man or woman with lust, etc.  

So if Sikh Society does not view the union of lesbians and gays the same way I am not complaining.  If in the future they view differently I won't complain either.  I don't have a huge lot of personal interest in this.

In terms of Akal Takhat Sahib, it makes religious and Panthic  (Sikh community well being) decisions.  If they have so guided right now that it makes no sense to bless gay/lesbian relationships/unions as Anand Karaj, I am OK with that too.  If there is a need to revisit this, the community support and other means can be employed to reason for it.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jul 6, 2011)

It seems in the first instance the West is condemned for having condemned homosexuality in India during the British Raj and now they're we're being condemned for encouraging such behaviour?  You might want to try looking at the situation in more dimensions than just blaming the West and taking no responsibility.

Says the blue-eyed blonde 100% Western Ishna who tries to respect other cultures and gets a little protective when her's is blamed as the one who rains on other culture's parades.  I'm not saying the West is perfect but neither are other cultures, and the blame game is getting old.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 7, 2011)

Everything is cyclical ,from the orgies of rome, to the kama sutra, the victorian british, prohibition, the west is not the ultimate source of all these things, the east had its time too, it has had its decadence,  thoughts flow, attitudes change, as people we grow, the good see the good elsewhere, and imitate it, pleasure seekers do the same, 

Let us not tar whole communities with the same brush, this is not about liberal thinking, this is about sikh thinking,. as a sikh, I respect any human being attempting to find the creator and living by the way of the panth, regardless of choice of partner. 

As Sikhs we should have the same view of a person in a same sex relationship that attempts to find Gurmukh. The issue is love, respect and to be faithful. If those criteria are met than a homosexual sikh is no different to a hetrosexual sikh, 

I know of many homosexual couples who do not even have sex, it is about love for some, devoid of lust, just love. I know some heterosexuals who could learn a lot from such people..


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## Harry Haller (Jul 7, 2011)

KDSji

In a post a while back you were quite vocal about the exodus of sikhs to other religions, especially in India. 

When I close my eyes and think back to sikhism 20 years ago, my vision of sikhi was a large number of people that had been dragged to Gurdwara, I never recall seeing anyone pleased to be there, never saw anyone smile, I can still remember the congregation singing shabads in a bored monotone, and the relief as everyone went out to langar, it was only in the langar people started to smile, and talk, and the atmosphere became a bit lighter, only they were not talking about god, they were talking about life. 

If you want sikhism to grow, you have to accept that as well as blue eyed blondes, there will be many many types of people that will want to share the bliss of waheguru, maybe , as born sikhs, we are scared of these people, because they will understand sikhi better than we will, because some of them will show us up, in 20 years time, I hope our Gurdwaras are filled with people of all sizes, colours, sexual orientations and ages, the only real qualification to enter is a desire to find the creator, and to live by the Panth, everything else is moot.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

> KDSji
> 
> In a post a while back you were quite vocal about the exodus of sikhs to other religions, especially in India.



Harry ji

I think you misinterpretted my post I am not saying that Sikhs are converting,but they are slowly  assimilating in hinduism ,there is difference between conversion and assimilation.Large number of Sikhs inter marrying with Hindu's ,Sikh women keeping karva chauth even for their Sikh husbands,Going to Pandits and over all bollywood and Tv serials who regularly show Sikhs as Hindu's



> When I close my eyes and think back to sikhism 20 years ago, my vision of sikhi was a large number of people that had been dragged to Gurdwara, I never recall seeing anyone pleased to be there, never saw anyone smile, I can still remember the congregation singing shabads in a bored monotone, and the relief as everyone went out to langar, it was only in the langar people started to smile, and talk, and the atmosphere became a bit lighter, only they were not talking about god, they were talking about life.



You are wrong my friend ,20 years ago India was socialist country where even having Color TV was Luxury.People used to lead simple religious family based  lifestyle,Sikhs use to love kirtan ,katha gurbani .Don't use word like that Sikhs were dragged or something


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 7, 2011)

kds1980 ji I believe you need to give it to Harry Haller ji in terms of somber mood in Congregation Hall versus Langar Hall or area.​ 
The preachers, ragis and katha vachiks have a vested interest in keeping you somber so that you empty out your pockets easily.

Otherwise thanks for your post and keep the gusto going.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

Ishna said:


> It seems in the first instance the West is condemned for having condemned homosexuality in India during the British Raj and now they're we're being condemned for encouraging such behaviour?  You might want to try looking at the situation in more dimensions than just blaming the West and taking no responsibility.
> 
> Says the blue-eyed blonde 100% Western Ishna who tries to respect other cultures and gets a little protective when her's is blamed as the one who rains on other culture's parades.  I'm not saying the West is perfect but neither are other cultures, and the blame game is getting old.



The view that Britishers were condemned for condemning homosexuality is very much in Tiny minority in India.Also we have to accept that the culture of Britishers of That time was very different from western liberal materialistic Culture which emerged mostly in 50s or 60s.This culture promote among men and women do whatever you want don't care about society parents relatives etc,obviously India which was/is family oriented society cannot accept this culture.The youngsters get attracted to this culture very much but when things don't go their way they still go back to their parents,families


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## spnadmin (Jul 7, 2011)

kds1980 ji

Please rethink this comment 





> Also we have to accept that the culture of Britishers of That time was very different from western liberal materialistic Culture which emerged mostly in 50s or 60s.



Colonization has only one motive: to enrich oneself at the expense of another. European culture at the time of the raj, including British culture, was about materialism. What were the British doing in India anyway? Raping India of her wealth and resources. They were not there to transfer India's wealth to the poor of Africa...they were raping Africa too.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 7, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> kds1980 ji
> 
> Please rethink this comment
> 
> Colonization has only one motive: to enrich oneself at the expense of another. European culture at the time of the raj, including British culture, was about materialism. What were the British doing in India anyway? Raping India of her wealth and resources. They were not there to transfer India's wealth to the poor of Africa...they were raping Africa too.


spnadmin ji (our source of all things important winkingmunda) isn't it true that the British only started to come to land of the Sikhs in Punjab after Maharaja Ranjit Singh's death in 1839?







We used to watch the Goris (white females) driving/driven on GT Road in Amritsar in the afternoons.  No one hated them as a matter of fact people had fascination and goodwill.  I think they were then owners of OCM (Oriental Carper Mills), makers of beautiful carpets.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> kds1980 ji
> 
> Please rethink this comment
> 
> Colonization has only one motive: to enrich oneself at the expense of another. European culture at the time of the raj, including British culture, was about materialism. What were the British doing in India anyway? Raping India of her wealth and resources. They were not there to transfer India's wealth to the poor of Africa...they were raping Africa too.



India was raped from 1000 years .From Ghaznavi to Abdali what were they doing here ? Taking India's wealth and women.But they were  following Islamic culture so materiaistic occupations were always their in history.

What I mean with materialistic culture is when people start dreaming of having  luxury goods at any cost,some start taking bribes ,other convert themselves into note printing machines in private companies and forgetting their responsibilities toward parents,family society etc


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## spnadmin (Jul 7, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> India was raped from 1000 years .From Ghaznavi to Abdali what were they doing here ? Taking India's wealth and women.But they were  following Islamic culture so materiaistic occupations were always their in history.
> 
> What I mean with materialistic culture is when people start dreaming of having  luxury goods at any cost,some start taking bribes ,other convert themselves into note printing machines in private companies and forgetting their responsibilities toward parents,family society etc




That's a good point. It does not negate what I said. The British raj was founded on materialism. It was only about materialism. You have clarified your definition of materialism, and thank you. But know, it is your personal definition and not the one that is normally used. 



> materialism |məˈti(ə)rēəˌlizəm|
> noun
> 1 a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.
> 2 Philosophy the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
> • the doctrine that consciousness and will are wholly due to material agency. See also dialectical materialism .


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## spnadmin (Jul 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> spnadmin ji (our source of all things important winkingmunda) lol isn't it true that the British only started to come to land of the Sikhs in Punjab after Maharaja Ranjit Singh's death in 1839?
> 
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



The British East India Company was active in India from the early 1700's to my knowledge. During that period the British and Portuguese were in competition for economic advantages around Agra and further into the south. The British played a politica/diplomaticl game vis a vis the Persian court in the north because trade routes through the North were important. They thought it better to support what appeared to be a tough and stable Persian governance. Once the Persian/Moghul political structure began to crumble, then the British eyed Punjab with more active interest. Until then they were content to remain in the background. And yes, Punjab seemed invincible, not that they did not try to gain a foot hold, until the collapse of the rule of Ranjit Singh. 

I have to add to this but right now can't. Don't have time. Moderating.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

SPNadmin ji

Let me give you a practical example here.These days in cities like Delhi you can easily see Guards,nurses etc which are bare earning 5000-10000 per month having mobile handsets worth Rupees 10-15 thousands .Now an average life of mobile handset is 1-2 years as mostly people end losing or breaking their phones .Most of the feature in phones are not even usable for them ,they can get cheap handsets ranging from 1500 to 3000 rupees .The money they could save for future or families  is being spent on useless mobiles ,what will you call it?


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 7, 2011)

spnadmin ji seems busy.

In reference to misuse of money on Phones and your question, "what will you call it?"

I will call it going along with the times.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> spnadmin ji seems busy.
> 
> In reference to misuse of money on Phones and your question, "what will you call it?"
> 
> ...


And what about need of money in 100 of other places of life ?At that time you start crying we are poor we don't have money


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## Ishna (Jul 7, 2011)

Are you saying that if the British never went to India, there would be no materialism in India?

And yes, the British did a lot of things in history which were underhanded and cruel.  Like most other human civilisations on the planet.  Go humans.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 7, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> And what about need of money in 100 of other places of life ?At that time you start crying we are poor we don't have money


kds1980 ji take a deep breath please don't get angry.  Not everyone thinks like you, me, spnadmin, ishna, harry haller, the person buying the phone, etc.  That is life.  You don't set rules for others and they don't set rules for you.

Let us have a cool discourse versus "lower case" shouting in posts.  Some of the posts might as well be in capitals.

Have a great morning and a great day and same to everyone at spn.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Ishna ji British are as normal as anyone else if not very civil and I prove it with the following,







My father at a Tea Party hosted by the Queen in London, UK.  See how intently she is listening besides being a Monarch.  She is much Younger than my deceased father when the picture was taken and is showing sense of great understanding and manners that will put many to shame.  British recognized Sikhs and understood them better than anyone else.  Yes there were issues but those are run of the mill when countries try to take over other countries.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

> kds1980 ji take a deep breath please don't get angry. Not everyone thinks like you, me, spnadmin, ishna, harry haller, the person buying the phone, etc. That is life. You don't set rules for others and they don't set rules for you.



I am not angry ,i don't understand why my post give impression that I am in rage,is it because I don't use smilies :singhsippingcoffee::


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 7, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> I am not angry ,i don't understand why my post give impression that I am in rage,is it because I don't use smilies :singhsippingcoffee::


Oh God, that smilie thingy is magic.  Do use these and I many times do.  What a service by Mai Harinder Kaur ji.

Your post changes to a mellow delivery by at least 50% with that smilie.  No kidding, it helps.

Have a great day.  Put that cup away I want to  mundahug.  I hope you are not Homophobic as I only mean a basic Jaffi (hug) of friendship and nothing more.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Harry ji
> 
> I think you misinterpretted my post I am not saying that Sikhs are converting,but they are slowly  assimilating in hinduism ,there is difference between conversion and assimilation.Large number of Sikhs inter marrying with Hindu's ,Sikh women keeping karva chauth even for their Sikh husbands,Going to Pandits and over all bollywood and Tv serials who regularly show Sikhs as Hindu's
> 
> ...



I apologise for using the word dragged,maybe it only applied to me at the time, however you do have a point, whenever I have been in India, yes, the atmosphere has been different, the lack of merc S classes, people dressed for Gurdwara, not a night club, the langar a nice simple affair, the distinct lack of chatter from the aunties, I concede dear friend that the Gurdwaras, and the concept of worship outside of India is possibly different, so I will limit my comments to my own experiences in the UK. peacesign

However, I think the constant blame of the rise in materialism on the west is unfair. I agree with your comment about nurses buying top end mobile phones they possibly cannot afford, but we are now going down another path here. This subject is extremely close to my heart, are you easily influenced? no. That is one thing I do respect about you, you are educated and intelligent, if somewhat closed minded, but you will stand for what you believe in, as indeed will I. If people are that malleable that they will copy and imitate what they see in the decadent west, well then if it isn't mobile phones it would be something else. Sometimes you speak of India as this perfect, socialistic, spiritual country that was led astray by the West. Dear friend what is the point of all the spiritualness and socialism in the world if the majority cannot resist the temptations that are put before them. Are we who we are because we have been kept away from temptation, or can we define ourselves given the presence of this temptation. Example, a gursikh married, non drinking, gets into bad company, starts drinking, sleeping around, ends up divorced living in a bedsit, whose fault? You may blame the company, I would say that if  our gursikh was complete in himself , it would not be that easy for him to be led astray. You are like a father wanting to protect his young from modernisation and all the pitfalls that it comes with. At some stage you have to expose people to life, and that includes wanting to have the latest phone, and the biggest car, making mistakes, realising that next  time the phone will have to wait, that big cars are costly to run, the people will educate themselves, ultimately, hopefully we will see a society that has seen it all, done it all, and has moved on to something better


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## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2011)

Ambersariaji

Beautiful photo, there is nothing as heartwarming as seeing a smiling sardar


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## kds1980 (Jul 8, 2011)

> However, I think the constant blame of the rise in materialism on the west is unfair. I agree with your comment about nurses buying top end mobile phones they possibly cannot afford, but we are now going down another path here. This subject is extremely close to my heart, are you easily influenced? no. That is one thing I do respect about you, you are educated and intelligent, if somewhat closed minded, but you will stand for what you believe in, as indeed will I. If people are that malleable that they will copy and imitate what they see in the decadent west, well then if it isn't mobile phones it would be something else.



Harry ji

The materialism has to be blamed ,the population of India and China is too large ,if people here cannot control their material desire's then they are inviting destruction .We have limited resources ,we are not Canada or Australia which have 2-3 times land and many other resources but only 2% of India's population.In past few years whatever middle class youth I have spoken to ,none of them talk about morality or honesty.They all talk about how they can make more and more money.Recently I was hearing a discussion on recent campaings of India of Ramdev and Anna hazare on TV ,On that show One lady said its good that so many youths are supporting anti corruption movements ,but the generation that is surviving on EMI's and electronic consumer goods are they ready to sacrifice their lifestyle as most of money is coming from corruption?She also mention that to reduce corruption we have to go back to some of our simple lifestyle roots



> Sometimes you speak of India as this perfect, socialistic, spiritual country that was led astray by the West. Dear friend what is the point of all the spiritualness and socialism in the world if the majority cannot resist the temptations that are put before them. Are we who we are because we have been kept away from temptation, or can we define ourselves given the presence of this temptation. Example, a gursikh married, non drinking, gets into bad company, starts drinking, sleeping around, ends up divorced living in a bedsit, whose fault? You may blame the company, I would say that if our gursikh was complete in himself , it would not be that easy for him to be led astray. You are like a father wanting to protect his young from modernisation and all the pitfalls that it comes with. At some stage you have to expose people to life, and that includes wanting to have the latest phone, and the biggest car, making mistakes, realising that next time the phone will have to wait, that big cars are costly to run, the people will educate themselves, ultimately, hopefully we will see a society that has seen it all, done it all, and has moved on to something better



I never say that India is perfect but still the way India survived ,the way it escaped communism is nothing short of miracle .sometime it surprises you how many people which are living in extreme poverty never revolted


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