# Teachings Of Guru Nanak Dev Ji & Guru Gobind Singh Ji : A Comparative Study



## Admin (Jun 11, 2004)

Somebody said... "Guru Gobind based his teachings on Hermetic thought and that Guru Nanak was clearly influenced by Templar culture and chivalry"

What are your views? Please be objective in your discussion. 

Thank you.


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## Amarpal (Jul 23, 2004)

Dear Ideal Singh Jee,

From Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh Jee, it is one process of evolution. All put together is Sikhism and its philosophy. Any attempt to segment it according to the teaching of each guru is to negate it. As our limbs or other organs (teaching of each of our guru separatly) separated from our body (sikhism) have no real meaning, in the same way considering each guru separately also does not give you the grasp of the totality; it does not help the cause of sikh religion.

With Love and Respect for all.

Amarpal


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## adeep646 (Dec 14, 2006)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Guru Nanak Dev ji explained a PRACTICAL approach to GOD. he said that all the old forms of bagati were wrong. some use to hang upside down go to the jungles, etc. he said that without NAM your cannot become pure. and how to reach this NAM, Seige Dun, Anahad Bani, Shabad, Toor; is by leaving this world of Tregun, of Maya. and going to your Real home, "Sun Samad Sacha Ghar Bara". (Sun Samad is your real home) the question is now how reach our home and find this NAM. so Maharaj explains "Pawn Paani Agni Bisrao Te Niranjan Sacha Nao" : where Air, Water & Fire end there is Nam. now what Vidies are written to enter Sun, Siege, 10 Dwar, 10 Akash, Begum Pura, Nij Ghar; are Sasgras and Sas Sas. there are many more vidies but this is the basic for begining your journey. and by His Grace and practice, lots of practice, hard work is what it takes and people these days are Bewitched by MAYA, and don't want to meet WAHEGURU and don't meditate on him. Our Mann (not mind) is asleep and our eyes, ears, toungue are not in our control and the Fives theives steal our Amrit. So our guru Explains "Simar Simar Simar Gur Apna Soiya Mann Jagai". By the Satgurus grace one hears and understands the Guru. SASGRAS is a practical method of meditiation. Gurbani Guru says" DUn Me DIan, DIan mey Jania Gurmukh Akath Kahani" ,9th Guru Says "Jehba Jap Agaja Karan Sunno Har Nam" (speak with toungue and listen to Har Nam") Gras is to take in and Sas is to complete your breathe (out). so you JAP "WAHE'GURU" in one complete breathe to stop your toughts. Gurbani Guru says to do simran all the time while working aswell "Simar Simar Har Karn Karna" you should do this with your breathe that way you won't forget. when you breathe in say WAHE and breathe out say GURU. this way your Sas is saved because Gurbani says "Lekha bolan bolna Lekha Khanna Kao, Lekhe vat chalaile, lekhe sun vekao" that everything you say, think while eating, walking, listening is written...
if you have any comments please email me adeep646@yahoo.com.


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## Astroboy (Jan 11, 2008)

Adeep Ji,

Welcome back to SPN. Hope to see your posts more often.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 3, 2009)

Well, I don't think a comparative study can be done. We know that Guru Gobind Singh ji gave Guru gaddi to SGGS so he,* if* not agreed with, then at least respected the teachings of the other gurus. He didn't leave behind any teachings that we can use to study, whereas Guru Nanak did. 
About the 5 ks, those served a practical purpose. Kes and Kirpan were direct insult to the Mughal law. Kachera was more practical on a battlefield than a dhoti. Kangha was used to keep kes clean, very practical. Kare can be worn like armour and serve as brass knuckles in hand-to-hand combat.

We know both Gurus fought against injustice, oppression, etc. By the time 10th Guru ji came around, it had become worse. Guru Nanak dev ji fought with pens and his words and Guru Gobind Singh ji picked up the sword. Again, it was situation dependent. But if you recall the zafarnama then you know that this is more of a similarity.
They both rebelled. Guru Nanak touching achoot is similar to Guru Gobind Singh keeping a kirpan or wearing a kalgi.

I dont think there was any evolution. the gurus kept us going and got us through tough times. They stopped the human Guru trend when they thought it was right. Their teachings were consistent with each other, although, they may have been different in their own views, thoughts and actions.

So again, Guru Gobind Singh ji really did not leave anything behind, which we could study. What he gave us (K's) were very practical at his time, 2 of them were there to rebel against the authority. The others served a purpose in "rough" times. both Gurus, fought against the same thing. The way they fought depended on the situation.
So I don't think their teachings were different. Perhaps their personalities were. Everyone is different somehow. But the gurus made sure that they left a consistent message for the Sikhs.


Talking about Gurus individually, I read some eye witness acounts on a website a while back. it stated that Guru Arjan dev ji was a strict vegetarian whereas his son, Guru Hargobind was an avid hunter and ate animal meat. If anyone knows where that is from please let me know. Thanks


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## kiram (Jan 3, 2009)

YouTube - Guru Gobind Singh Ji


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2009)

Ideal Singh said:


> Somebody said... "Guru Gobind based his teachings on Hermetic thought and that Guru Nanak was clearly influenced by Templar culture and chivalry"
> 
> What are your views? Please be objective in your discussion.
> 
> Thank you.




Ideal Singh ji -- I have read this argument in varied placed on the net. To do justice to the topic requires disciplined reading, thought, reflection and study. The topic is one that fascinates me. Do wish that someone would take up this goal in the forum.


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2009)

Bhagat ji

A comparative study can be done. The differences, yes, reflect the changes in historical facts and conditions, as well as the cultural realities of northern India in the times of either Guru. 

However, just last week in reading portions of Dasam Granth I saw many places where the thinking of the Nanaks, in particular Guru Nanak, were reflected and echoed. The voice of Nanak X is his own, as is the poetic phrasing, and there are language differences. Again, there are sections of Dasam Granth that are unique to that scripture. But look again at Jap Sahib and other parts of the Guru's Bani -- and then realize that the imagery, the truths so evoked, many other things are consistent with Adi Granth, but given in a creative and new way. 

This is a discussion that would be very interesting.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> A comparative study can be done. The differences, yes, reflect the changes in historical facts and conditions, as well as the cultural realities of northern India in the times of either Guru.


Well, I thought if I mentioned Dasam granth, it would be considered off topic and more worthy of a different post. Perhaps, we can have a comparative study of Dasam granth (without assuming that it is by Guru Gobind Singh) and Guru granth Sahib.



> However, just last week in reading portions of Dasam Granth I saw many places where the thinking of the Nanaks, in particular Guru Nanak, were reflected and echoed.


Well, Aad ji if you think about it, Nanakian Philosophy is echoed all around the world nowadays.  But ya, I agree many parts of Dasam granth are in agreement but many parts are ...
Let's do the comparison here.


> The voice of Nanak X is his own, as is the poetic phrasing, and there are language differences.


Again, there are sections of Dasam Granth that are unique to that scripture.
What are your views on when comparing nanakian philosophy and your common sense to Dasam Granth :
Page 1368, Line 3
Speaking the word "Kaalkoot", then uttering the words "Kashtkari, Shivkanthi and Ahi" and then adding the word "Dhar", the names of Baan are known.133.
Page 1370, Line 4
Uttering primarily the words, "Nakaale and Sarteshvari" and then saying the words "Shat-ari and Sutari", all the names of Baan are pronounced.162.
Page 1371, Line 1
After uttering the words "Kaalaj, Dharmaj and Shalya-Ripou", then adding the word "Banndhu" and afterwards saying "Sutari", all the names of Baan are known.171.
Page 1378, Line 6
Saying the word "Kaalindi" in the beginning and then adding the words "Indra-Astar", afterwards many names of Paash continue to be evolved.270.
Page 1378, Line 7
Saying the word "Kaali Anuja" in the beginning and then uttering the word "Ishar-Astar", the wise people comprehend the names of Paash.271.
Page 1378, Line 12
Uttering the words "Kaalpita, tanuj and Astar" in serial order, all the names of Paash ar known.276.
Page 1379, Line 7
Uttering the words "Kall, Akaal and Karaal", then adding the word Aayudh, the wise people know all the names of Paash in their mind.285.
Page 1380, Line 3
Saying the word "Kaal" in the beginning and then putting the word Astar" at the end, innumerable names of Paash continue to be evolved.295.
Like what is that?? My dad says those are mantras that give you special powers. :}{}{}:



> To an average person this would sound like bull...
> ਦੁਤੀਯ ਕਾਨ ਤੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨਿਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਈ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
> दुतीय कान ते मैलु निकारी ॥ ता ते भई स्रिसटि इह सारी ॥१३॥
> And from the secretion of the other ear, the whole world materialized.13.


 page 114, check out the whole passage, it says that this guy has a thousand arms and legs.
it didnt sound like a metaphor for anything. It jsut sounds like a fairytale. you know? like someone just made it up for fun. This is what I think happened when someone wrote that.
Author: "Hey maybe I am thinking that this guy can secrete planets out of his ear while having a thousand arms and legs."
Friend "Oh man that would be awesome!! put that in your story!!"

...then it goes on to reproduce some hindu mythology. Some random story....I was thinking why would anyone bother writing this... where is this going? Why do I need to hear this? Ok let's change our perspective, perhaps, a diferent perspective is needed.
if I think Guru gobind Singh ji was a great writer and wrote his "imagination" on paper then I think, this is a carbon copy of the hindu mythology. This is not his imagination! Why would he copy that? and its not like he's teaching anything here using the Mythology like Guru nanak does...

ok let's keep going...


> ਕਹੂੰ ਈਸ ਸੀਸੰ ਪੁਐ ਰੁੰਡ ਮਾਲੰ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਡਾਕ ਡਉਰੂ ਕਹੂੰ ਕੰਬਿਤਾਨੰ ॥
> कहूं ईस सीसं पुऐ रुंड मालं ॥ कहूं डाक डउरू कहूं क्मबितानं ॥
> Somewhere the god Shiva is stringing the skulls in his rosary of skulls, somewhere the vampires and ghosts are shrieking joyfully.


 I am at page 118.
Vampires and ghosts? ya... :}{}{}:right....

anyway, let's keep going and see if this gets anywhere. The more I read the more it sounds like "Warcraft". The author describes the battles that take place, i think between the asuras and humans. Which I equate to the orcs vs humans in Warcraft (a video game). i am reading "dasam granth" as I type this. 


> ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੇ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਭੇਟ ਰਾਜ ਚਤੁਰਥ ਧਿਆਇ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ ॥੪॥ਅਫਜੂ॥੧੯੯॥
> इति स्री बचित्र नाटक ग्रंथे बेद पाठ भेट राज चतुरथ धिआइ समापतम सतु सुभम सतु ॥४॥अफजू॥१९९॥
> End of the Fourth Chapter of BACHITTAR NATAK entitled "The Recitation of the Vedas and the Offering of Kingdom".4.


 page 129
Recitation of Vedas? what??? 

Anyway, now the author says he was meditating on some mountain and so on. 
Our brains develop after we are born, and the brain develops as we gain knowledge etc. There is nothing in the brain before that.  
So when our brain develops after we are born, you shouldn't remember anything before as its not there. So where does this all come from? imagination? Ok I will agree with that. If Guru Gobind Singh ji made that up for fun then its totally acceptable. Afterall being a writer, you gotta use your imagination. however, as soon as this becomes his life story, his actual biography , literally, then its bull.... 
i can understand if this is figurative language to express something, like a poem, but its clearly not. Its like stating " facts" .
how do you explain that?



> But look again at Jap Sahib and other parts of the Guru's Bani -- and then realize that the imagery, the truths so evoked, many other things are consistent with Adi Granth, but given in a creative and new way.


Some parts but others? not so much.



> This is a discussion that would be very interesting.


Let's begin!

I bet there are tons of mistakes up there since i didnt proofread, so forgive me.
Thanks


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2009)

Bhagat ji,

There is a lot to tackle in your last post. We will be at it for days. With Guru's kirpa not too much fur will fly. Two very general comments however.

It is important when analyzing specific words used by Sri Guru Gobind Singh to keep in mind that the Punjabi language had changed in significant ways from Guru Nanak's time. Indeed, even the parts of the Adi Granth written by Guru Arjan Dev indicate linguistic forms had evolved during that even shorter span of time. I think people accord too much emotion when drawing distinctions between and among this word and that word, without also considering contexts in which the words are used -- in both scriptures.

Second point: In my opinion, and this is only my feeble opinion, the amount of emotion that is cooked up over the re-telling of Hindu myths in Dasam Granth is equally over-wrought. Why wouldn't Sri Guru Gobind Singh use them as a framework for teaching, inspiring, and sharing His insight? There are in fact some extremely interesting writings on the historical significance of the Vedas (as opposed to other Hindu books of scripture) that ties them to the political and cultural history of the Khastriya caste. Maybe I will share what I know about this later. Maybe not. 

How can the Sri Guru Gobind Singh be excluded from this discussion were it to take place? Again IMHO - the 10th Guru wrote most if not all Dasam Granth-- until scholars advise otherwise.  

These matters are entirely independent of the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the final Guru of the Sikhs. Unless of course someone is pushing a political agenda, and cannot stay out of a fight. More later after I have had a chance to digest all that you have listed as potential discussion questions.

Nice site BTW at sridasamgranth. Thanks.


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2009)

Bhagat ji

I am slowly formulating my response to specifics in your post above, and a beginning thought is that the verses you identified make it seem as if the 10th Nanak had something very different going on spiritually when contrasted with Nanaks I through IX. But is this a distinction without a difference. Out of the context of the surrounding text these verses make it appear that Guru Gobind Singh was listing incantations to be said to hallow the use of various weapons. Can this be true? Are we reading some kind of pooja bani? I do not think so. Turn back a few pages to panna 1357. There is the context for the lines which you have listed. These lines a completely consistent with the image of the divine in Aad Granth.

ਕਾਲ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਗ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਜਗਬੀਰ ॥੫॥
काल तुही काली तुही तुही तेग अरु तीर ॥ तुही निशानी जीत की आजु तुही जगबीर ॥५॥
Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow, Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5.

ਤੁਹੀ ਸੂਲ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਤਬਰ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਖੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੇਲ ਸਭ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰਦ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ॥੬॥
तुही सूल सैहथी तबर तूं निखंग अरु बान ॥ तुही कटारी सेल सभ तुमही करद क्रिपान ॥६॥
Thou art the Sool (spike), Saihathi and Tabar (hatched), Thou art the Nikhang and Baan (arrow), Thou art the Kataari, Sel, and all and Thou art the Kard (knife), and Kripaan (sword).6.

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਸਿਪਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਵਚ ਨਿਖੰਗ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਬਨੇ ਤੁਮ ਬਯਾਪਕ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੭॥
शसत्र असत्र तुमही सिपर तुमही कवच निखंग ॥ कवचांतक तुमही बने तुम बयापक सरबंग ॥७॥
Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਿੱਦਯਾ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਾਜਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰ ॥੮॥
स्री तूं सभ कारन तुही तूं बि्दया को सार ॥ तुम सभ को उपराजही तुमही लेहु उबार ॥८॥
Thou art the cause of peace and prosperity and the essence of learning; Thou art the creator of all and the redeemer of all.8.

ਤੁਮਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਰਜਨੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਜੀਅਨ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਉਤਕ ਹੇਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਮਿਤ ਤਿਨ ਮੋ ਬਾਦ ਬਢਾਇ ॥੯॥
तुमही दिन रजनी तुही तुमही जीअन उपाइ ॥ कउतक हेरन के नमित तिन मो बाद बढाइ ॥९॥
Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them; Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9.

ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੜਗ ਸੈਫ ਤੇਗ ਤਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਰੱਛ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਕਰਵਾਰ ॥੧੦॥
अस क्रिपान खंडो खड़ग सैफ तेग तरवार ॥ ्रछ करो हमरी सदा कवचांतक करवार ॥१०॥
O Lord ! Protect us by smashing the armour with the blows of Thy hands with the help of As, Kripaan (sword), Khanda, Kharag, Saif, Tegh, and Talwaar (sword).10.

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਦਾੜ੍ਹ ਜਮ ਤੂੰ ਬਿਛੂਓ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੋ ਪਤਿ ਪਦ ਜੇ ਲੀਜੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਦਾਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧੧॥
तुही कटारी दाड़्ह जम तूं बिछूओ अरु बान ॥ तो पति पद जे लीजीऐ ्रछ दास मुहि जानु ॥११॥
Thou art Kataari, Jamdaadh, Bichhuaa and Baan, O power ! I am a serf of Thy Lord`s feet, kindly Protect me.11.

ਬਾਂਕ ਬੱਜ੍ਰ ਬਿਛੂਓ ਤੁਹੀ ਤਬਰ ਤਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕਰੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਹਮਾਰ ॥੧੨॥
बांक ब्ज्र बिछूओ तुही तबर तरवार ॥ तुही कटारी सैहथी करीऐ ्रछ हमार ॥१२॥
Thou art Baank, bajar, Bichhuaa, Tabar, and Talwaar, Thou art the kataari, and Saihathi; Protect me.12.

ਤੁਮੀ ਗੁਰਜ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਗਦਾ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਤੀਰ ਤੁਫੰਗ ॥ ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਮੋਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਰੱਛਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੧੩॥
तुमी गुरज तुमही गदा तुमही तीर तुफंग ॥ दास जान मोरी सदा ्रछा करो सरबंग ॥१३॥
Thou art Gurj, Gadaa (mace), Teer (arrow) and Tufang; protect me ever considering me as Thy slave.13.

ਛੁਰੀ ਕਲਮ ਰਿਪ ਕਰਦ ਭਨਿ ਖੰਜਰ ਬੁਗਦਾ ਨਾਇ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਰਿਜਕ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਮੁਹਿ ਤੁਮ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਚਾਇ ॥੧੪॥
छुरी कलम रिप करद भनि खंजर बुगदा नाइ ॥ अरध रिजक सभ जगत को मुहि तुम लेहु बचाइ ॥१४॥
Thou art the Chhurri, the enemy-killing karad and the Khanjar (dagger) are Thy names; Thou art the adorable Power of the world, kindly protect me.14.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਉਪਾਵਹੁ ਜਗਤ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮਹੀਂ ਪੰਥ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਆਪ ਤੁਹੀ ਝਗਰਾ ਕਰੋ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰੋ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧੫॥
प्रिथम उपावहु जगत तुम तुमहीं पंथ बनाइ ॥ आप तुही झगरा करो तुमही करो सहाइ ॥१५॥
Firstly Thou createst the world, and then the Paths; then Thou crreatest the disputes and also help them.15.

ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥
म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥
Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥
तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥
Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰੰਕ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਉ ॥ ਸ਼ਾਮ ਦਾਮ ਅਰੁ ਡੰਡ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਭੇਦ ਉਪਾਉ ॥੧੮॥
तुहीं बिप्र छत्री तुहीं तुहीं रंक अरु राउ ॥ शाम दाम अरु डंड तूं तुमही भेद उपाउ ॥१८॥
Thou art the Brahmin, Kshatriya, the king and the poor; Thou art also Sama, Sama, Dand and Bhed and also other remedies.18.


More later.. Thanks for starting the discussion. More thinking required on my part.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 10, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> I am slowly formulating my response to specifics in your post above, and a beginning thought is that the verses you identified make it seem as if the 10th Nanak had something very different going on spiritually when contrasted with Nanaks I through IX. But is this a distinction without a difference. Out of the context of the surrounding text these verses make it appear that Guru Gobind Singh was listing incantations to be said to hallow the use of various weapons. Can this be true? Are we reading some kind of pooja bani? I do not think so. Turn back a few pages to panna 1357. There is the context for the lines which you have listed. These lines a completely consistent with the image of the divine in Aad Granth.
> 
> ...


Aad ji I understand that stanza but you haven't shown me how it relates to those  "mantars" 
I will continue to read teh Dasam granth and pose questions as they arise.


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## spnadmin (Jan 10, 2009)

Good Bhagat ji that you clarified your intention. It was not clear that you wanted specific responses to those particular mantars.

One insight into this -- from my inch by inch investigation -- that some of the syllables are added to vaars in Dasam Granth purely for tonal and rhythmic purposes so as to improve the poetic quality. At other times the Braj language (the dialect spoken by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji) which is the language of the Dasam Granth has been "Sanskritized." The purpose therein was to provide a better grammatical structure. So the task for the translator is more complicated. Even in the day of Sri Guru Gobind Singh a very high degree of schoarlship was needed to comprehend this particular text. This particular section was intended to be spoken and heard.   

Please continue posting the mantars -- and I will begin a systematic analysis of them one at a time. At rock bottom I still contend that the big metaphors of Dasam Granth in no way contradict the Bani of the other Nanaks. 

Hoping that someone who knows Dasam Granth joins this discussion.


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## spnadmin (Jan 10, 2009)

Bhagat ji

OK -- I think I have cracked the first one ....

_Speaking the word "Kaalkoot", then uttering the words "Kashtkari, Shivkanthi and Ahi" and then adding the word "Dhar", the names of Baan are known.133.

_But before I/we go any further -- would you be willing to explain why this is important in your quest to compare the Banis of  Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh? 

Is it helpful to go on a quest for specific facts in various Guru categories such as politics, war, geography, religion, and so forth?


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 11, 2009)

> would you be willing to explain why this is important in your quest to compare the Banis of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh?


Its not important to compare the banis of Guru Nanak and guru Gobind singh for me at all. I just need to know if I should be giving Dasam Granth more credit. Its been a "flop" in my world since I first read it.


> Is it helpful to go on a quest for specific facts in various Guru categories such as politics, war, geography, religion, and so forth?


I don't understand this question...


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Its not important to compare the banis of Guru Nanak and guru Gobind singh for me at all. I just need to know if I should be giving Dasam Granth more credit. Its been a "flop" in my world since I first read it.
> 
> I don't understand this question...



Bhagat ji

To answer your second question first. I just needed to feel confident that your interest was not on the level of facts about Gurus -- which we have all seen happen from time to time. These things are important. But the discussion of Dasam Granth encompasses so much more.

I can't tell you whether you should give Dasam Granth more credit -- more credit in your own estimation? I am guessing that is what you mean. Personally, I don't see it as a flop and actually see it as a work of genius, in which most if not all parts were written by the 10th Nanak. Guru Gobind Singh, as the article above proclaims, had a broad view of spirituality and a range of abilities that were/are staggering to my mind. The sections you have quoted are no exception. 

Each line comes from what is typically billed as an "inventory of weapons." But read each line and see that within each line the nature of the weapon in question evolves from an implement of war, to a hallmark of all the accumulated veechar of a spiritual past, to a symbol that will take one through a moral cross-road, to the inspiration of God. After beginning to research the topic you put forward, then Gobind Singh the poet emerges large once again-- for what he has done only the most creative poets do. That is to contain metaphors within metaphors to achieve great depth. I could also match the meaning of several lines so far to tuks of Guru Nanak Dev -- not in exact wording but in the spiritual lesson that is taught. The continuity of Nanakian philosophy is retained in each line.

This post has taken me me away from the time I have available to post my understanding of the first puzzle. But I will do that later tonight.


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## spnadmin (Sep 11, 2015)

Quoting you Bhagat ji, 

_"Again, there are sections of Dasam Granth that are unique to that scripture.
What are your views on when comparing nanakian philosophy and your common sense to Dasam Granth?"_

So take a look at the first line you have cited above 

_Page 1368, Line 3
Speaking the word "Kaalkoot", then uttering the words "Kashtkari, Shivkanthi and Ahi" and then adding the word "Dhar", the names of Baan are known.133._

The historical background for this _Dohra_ on the name of "Baan" in the _Shastra Naam Mala_, an inventory of weapons, was well known to the followers of Guru Gobind Singh, who probably heard this hymn recited many times. Probably the _Shastra Naam Mala_ was meant primarily to be heard as a poem, rather than read, because it is written in Braj which was the literary language of poetry in Sri Guru Gobind Singh's time. His followers were aware of the Vedic mythology that is alluded to in the shastra.

When one takes the line apart, the first image is the image of _Kaalkoot. Kalkoot_ is a reference to a mythical poison and figures in the concept of _Neelkanth Mahadev,_ or by analogy, "savior of the world", in this way.

Shiva and Brahma ask Lord Vishnu to save the world. The story is long; so imagine a chaotic scene where demigods think they have smelled _amruth_ (amrith). Once they figure out they are really smelling the aroma of _Kaalkoot _they all try to escape. A madhouse ensues. The aroma of Kaalkoot is very poisonous. So the Lord Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma have a dilemma on their hands. To save the world, Lord Shiva inhales all of the poisonous _Kaalkoot_. However he does not swallow it down but harbors it in his throat (in some accounts in his belly). Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma are very thankful, and Vishnu bestows on Shiva the name _Neelkanth_ (literally blue throat) because when he swallowed the poison his throad turned blue. Allegorically _Neelkanth _means he saved the world. Shiva explains that “poison” can never be completely eliminated because *one must at times make sacrifices to help others* (the moral of the tale).  

In another story, the dilemma of _amruth _vs _kaalkoot _is better explained. Everyone in Hindu mythology knew that _amruth_ is an intoxicating drink that lures the naïve and ignorant to think that they will become divine. This however did not always happen, and more often than not the aroma of _amruth_ led the prideful seeker after immortality toward fatal attractions in Maya.  The ones who drink _Amruth_, which is the nectar of immortality, can become devas, but they never reach beyond that classification. Those who drink _kaalkoot _become _Mahaadev,_ the greatest of the divine because of the sacrifices they have made.

The meaning of _Kaalkoot_ should aide in our understanding and Guru Gobind Singh’s point should be pretty clear. But let’s continue.

I am not completely satisfied with my understanding of _Kashtkari, Shivkanthi and Ahi _and perhaps another forum member can help me out with this. But these words seem to signify people and regions of northern India where the forces of Gobind Singh were bedeviled as much by hill tribesmen as they were by Mughal forces. _Kashthari_  may refer to forest people, and these words also hint at regions where significant battles were fought. As I said, I am very unclear on these points.

_Dhar_ in the context of _Dasam Granth_ represents righteous deeds, or to perform righteous deeds, deeds inspired by consciousness. 

So some connections are emerging – One must make sacrifices and harbor if necessary a deadly substance (or a weapon perhaps), if one would take the action needed to save the innocent and the righteous. One has already made these righteous sacrifices in recent battles. One continues in sacrifice to the end, and we get to the end of the verse as well, to the word _Baan._

The point of the _Dohra_ is to know _Baan_ completely. _Baan_ is a deadly weapon and it is our protector. Baan is also the arrow of Rama, enlightenment. The arrow is poison to our enemy, but taking up arms in a righteous cause is _dhar._ Unless it is infused with  consciousness,_ Baan_ is nothing. As our Guru's reframe this idea, they say, 

Ang 332, by Sant Kabir

  ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਾਣਿ ਬਜਰ ਕਲ ਛੇਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਪਦੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ॥
  gur kai baan bajar kal shhaedhee pragattiaa padh paragaasaa ||
  The Guru's arrow has pierced the hard core of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and the state of enlightenment has dawned.

When we assume the moral duty of making painful sacrifices (inhale the _Kaalkoot)_ in the midst of all we have suffered, and we do the righteous thing, then we also come to know _Baan, _the arrow that pierces our heart. The word _Baan _is also Persian for “host” or “keeper” and also  guardian or protector. :idea: When we assume the moral duty of making painful sacrifices (inhale the _Kaalkoot)_ in the midst of all we have suffered, and we do the righteous thing,   then we also  come to know the power of _Baan_, the *Protector.*

The forces of Guru Gobind Singh knew the story of Shiva, the _Neelkanth_. It was part of their culture, past and heritage. I had to go looking for it. They also must have understood that the story contained within it a moral choice _dhar_ and a moral lesson "sacrifice." The verse takes them however to several levels of understanding and it ends with _Baan._ A reminder that spiritual consciousness inspires the arrow and gives it power. 

Similar idea is found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj

Ang1396 

Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das) by the bhat, SAL

ਧ੍ਰੰਮ ਧਨਖੁ ਕਰ ਗਹਿਓ ਭਗਤ ਸੀਲਹ ਸਰਿ ਲੜਿਅਉ ॥
dhhranm dhhanakh kar gehiou bhagath seeleh sar larriao ||
Holding the bow of Dharma in His Hands, He has shot the arrows of devotion and humility.

On panna 1357, of Sri Dasam Granth, an evern more dramatic connection appears.  I will try to post it soon. Forum members, please correct my errors and forgive my ignorance.


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