# Hukam And Medical Treatment



## findingmyway (Oct 10, 2010)

A question that frequently comes up in kids gurmat classes which I am unable to satisfactorily answer is:

If we are supposed to accept Waheguru's hukam and retain the body in the state given to us by Him, then why is medical treatment acceptable?

The tack I often take is to say that:

1) It gives others a chance to do seva.

2) We are remaining within Waheguru's hukam if the treatment is aiming to restore normal bodily function and therefore improve quality of life. If the treatment is for vanity (plastic surgery) or to change the body to give you better function than that normally expericed in nature (eg there is research into developing glasses which give super good vision-beyond that which is normally found in humans) then that is no longer acceptable.

3) Diseases exist because if everyone was in perfect working order we would not appreciate the amazing body given to us by Waheguru to function on this Earth.

One argument for keeping kesh and not having piercings is that is the way that we were made so why distort it. How to explian why these are different from accepting medical problems as requiring intervention when that is the way we were made?

Please do not focus on hair or piercings etc. These are used as examples as that is the question that comes up. Please focus on the question about medical interventions.

Thanks for your feedback,
Jasleen Kaur


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2010)

findingmyway ji

The kids always come up with questions to stump us! swordfight

You asked that we not focus on hair and piercings. Forgive me, but the arguments often given that this is how Waheguru made us are the weakest of the weak IMHO. That is why kids seize on that immediately and then bring up all the other things we do that in fact alter our natural states, such as take antibiotics when we have infections or take vitamin supplements to correct various conditions like anemia.

But in reply to your main question. It is also the hukam of Waheguru that there be doctors and medicines, that there be breakthroughs in medical research that lead to the cure of once incurable diseases. Waheguru is Creator, Sustainer, Shelter and Support, as well as Destroyer.  On this planet we are given the opportunity to be part of his play, to chose to act in the script He has written. To be a doctor, a medical care-giver of any kind, to do medical research and discover the frontiers of cure, is to be a part of his sustaining force. Without his hukam the choice would not be there.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 11, 2010)

That is WHY Guru Arjun Ji accepted the fact that for Him..HUKM is to sit on the Hot Plate. Read His Gurbani..DOSH na kahoon deon..I DONT BLAME anyone per se..Simply because Jehnagir is also in HIS HUKM..Chandu is also in HIS HUKM..the Jalaad pouring hot burning sand onto Guru Jis head is also in HIS HUKM....Nature at its BURNING HOTTEST SUMMER is also in HIS HUKM...so since everything is HIS HUKM...who can be "blamed"...DOSH NA KAHOON DEON...every piece in the JIGSAW has its UNIQUE PLACE..and Guru Arjun Ji's just happens to be on the HOT PLATE.....while Jehangir's is on his throne at delhi. BOTH are in HIS HUKM. This is why Guru Ji DID NOT ASK Akal Purakh..O FATHER..why do you give ME this poison cup of death to drink ??? Why did you seat me on this burning plate ?? Ours not to question WHY..ours is to do and Die...Each of the Hundreds of thousnads of SIKHS standing in line behind our Sharomani Shaheed Guru Arjun Ji Sahib didnt for a split second DOUBT the HUKM..."why me ??" why not him ??....EACH..even those as young as ZORAWAR SINGH..only FIVE ACCEPTED the HUKM.

Some among us sikhs DIDNT ACCEPT the HUKM...chief one is Baba SRI CHAND who DEFIED his father and revolted to set up his own Panth...Baba Mohree who KICKED Guru Amardass ji in Public...Baba Prithi Chand who worked day and night to kill his younger brother for the assets of Guru Ghar....and many many MORE INFAMOUS SIKHS also exist in our History.


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## sdad (Oct 12, 2010)

WGJKK WGJKF! Jasleen Kaur-ji,

IMHO you have answered satisfactorily, certainly in number “2” of your answer. 

Perhaps as an additional to your number “2” answer, you should also include:

If we obeyed Wahegurus hukam; ate natural, did a lot of Seva and were free from doubt, I.e. we fully accepted his pana (so we were totally stress free) than there would be no need of medical treatment.  The problem is we don’t and generally we our inside is misaligned from the mind, as we know we should do X, Y & Z, but we decide to do something else as it may be fun, etc.

When we make mistakes, its down to us to try and correct them, to give an example: if I were to buy a crane that was specified to lift a weight of 1 ton, however, I try lifting 20 tons, it may break, and than, yes, we will have to fix it. In other words, medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum.

In addition, it is possible that past karma requires a person to go through something so they may learn and move on, or perhaps ahankar (I’ness) is needed to be reduced.  In this case, you may need medical treatment for perhaps the result of say an outbreak of something totally out of the norm. 

Hope this is of some help...

rangesingh:
Bhul Chuk Maaf, Gurfateh!


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## eropa234 (Oct 12, 2010)

Can you point to me where does in Sri Guru Granth Sahib its stated that you must preserve your body in its original state.


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## spnadmin (Oct 12, 2010)

sdad said:


> WGJKK WGJKF! Jasleen Kaur-ji,
> In other words, medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum.
> 
> 
> ...



orangesingh ji

I am also wondering where in Gurbani we are taught that medical treatment is required (I think that is what you are saying) when there is misalignment from Hukam?

How can one be misaligned with Hukam? Everything that arises is according to His Hukam. It would mean Satguruji was at times misaligned with his own hukam, by allowing something misaligned to occur.



> .Nature at its BURNING HOTTEST SUMMER is also in HIS HUKM...so since everything is HIS HUKM...who can be "blamed"...DOSH NA KAHOON DEON...every piece in the JIGSAW has its UNIQUE PLACE..and Guru Arjun Ji's just happens to be on the HOT PLATE.....while Jehangir's is on his throne at delhi. BOTH are in HIS HUKM. This is why Guru Ji DID NOT ASK Akal Purakh..O FATHER..why do you give ME this poison cup of death to drink ??? Why did you seat me on this burning plate ?? Ours not to question WHY..ours is to do and Die...Each of the Hundreds of thousnads of SIKHS standing in line behind our Sharomani Shaheed Guru Arjun Ji Sahib didnt for a split second DOUBT the HUKM..."why me ??" why not him ??....EACH..even those as young as ZORAWAR SINGH..only FIVE ACCEPTED the HUKM.



Sukhmani Sahib makes it clear that hukam cannot be avoided.


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## sdad (Oct 12, 2010)

Spnadmin / Eropa234,

To answer your questions, can I first ask you where in the Siri-Guru-Granth-Sahib-ji does it say we keep the five K's, what we eat, where we sleep, etc? Moreover, where does it say medical treatment is NOT allowed?

Guidance also comes from the example set by our gurus and from the experience of the many greats in the Sikh sangat over the last 500 years.
From Guru Hargobind-ji's time fitness and looking after the physical body became part of the ethos, and medical treatment was in cases also administered by the Guru's themselves.

I might be wrong however, if you accept, everything is in his hukum, why do anything at all? How does one know what is the Hukum?

To give you my humble viewpoint (and I stand to be corrected).  I guess the best way to explain this may be via the Camel story:

So here goes....
There was a Manmukh who owned a big train of Camels he went to a Gurmukh and on hearing "Hukam andher subkoh, bahar Hukum na koieih"  mockingly asked, if he should just leave his camels loose in the desert or tie them up (as surely only what was in his Hukum, would happen). The Gurmukh answered; he must tie up his Camels and he must know & Trust what was in his Hukum as that is what would transpire.  
So in a similar trait, I would submit medical treatment or other such things of benefit one, should be accepted with the belief that the resultant will be as per his Hukum.

Gurfateh!


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## eropa234 (Oct 12, 2010)

sdad said:


> Spnadmin / Eropa234,
> 
> To answer your questions, can I first ask you where in the Siri-Guru-Granth-Sahib-ji does it say we keep the five K's, what we eat, where we sleep, etc? Moreover, where does it say medical treatment is NOT allowed?


 
It doesn't state anywhere. 



> Guidance also comes from the example set by our gurus and from the experience of the many greats in the Sikh sangat over the last 500 years.
> From Guru Hargobind-ji's time fitness and looking after the physical body became part of the ethos, and medical treatment was in cases also administered by the Guru's themselves.


 Examples set by our Gurus were guided by knowledge and wisdom.



> I might be wrong however, if you accept, everything is in his hukum, why do anything at all? How does one know what is the Hukum?


I am in full agreement with your train of thoughts here

To give you my humble viewpoint (and I stand to be corrected).  I guess the best way to explain this may be via the Camel story:



> So here goes....
> There was a Manmukh who owned a big train of Camels he went to a Gurmukh and on hearing "Hukam andher subkoh, bahar Hukum na koieih"  mockingly asked, if he should just leave his camels loose in the desert or tie them up (as surely only what was in his Hukum, would happen). The Gurmukh answered; he must tie up his Camels and he must know & Trust what was in his Hukum as that is what would transpire.
> So in a similar trait, I would submit medical treatment or other such things of benefit one, should be accepted with the belief that the resultant will be as per his Hukum.


My definition of munmukh is a 'mouth that swallows everything the mind tells" and Gurmukh is a 'mouth that only swallows knowledge'  

Thanks you


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## Balkar Singh (Oct 12, 2010)

Gurmukh Jio, Guru fateh,
Not only kids but so many 'wise men' say so. Some other sects in the 'sikh look' are also mischivious. We are heading to the hipocracy too. Criticism and raising doubts is becoming our habit. It's unfortunate.
The Holy Hukam "saabut soorat dastar sira" (GGS-1084) is great. Further questions are absurd and product of THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO. Such people seldom recite even Nitnem. Childern often listen and doubt. Such discussion should not come to any type of media. Bhul chuk maaf karna ji.
with high regards to all participants


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## spnadmin (Oct 12, 2010)

sdad;
[COLOR=black said:
			
		

> So in a similar trait, I would submit medical treatment or other such things of benefit one, should be accepted with the belief that the resultant will be as per his Hukum.[/COLOR]
> 
> Gurfateh!



sdad ji 

If that is your conclusion, then we do not disagree. That was my earlier point. So now you leave me wondering why this was one of your earlier points.



> Originally Posted by sdad View Post
> WGJKK WGJKF! Jasleen Kaur-ji,
> In other words, medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum.
> 
> ...



How am I misunderstanding you?


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## whatcomesafterfour (Oct 13, 2010)

apologies for a simple question

what is Hukam?

How do we know that what is happening is Hukam?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 13, 2010)

SPNADMIN,
"HUKAMu is a word of great philosophy of Gurbaani.This is also accepted when our 
GUROO blesses the person .That is why this is possible with very few of us.
But once a person becomes under HUKAMu,He is beyond all if and buts of any ailments
because he is perfectly tuned with HUKAMu and is in a state of PARAMPAD where effects of any ailments become ZERO and This is also the ULTIMATE BLISS.
Since every incidence however small it may be ,is happening under HUKAMu .Once this is accepted then anything should bbe acceptable without any blame.
Under HUKAMu what is being realised can not be put into words.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Rupinder.Singh (Oct 13, 2010)

Hukum vs medical treatment , a great topic to strech our minds..Thanks very much for sharing.



In my opinon, and as highlighted by Gyani Jarnail singh ji, "Hukmai ander sabh ko.. bahr hukam na koi"

So even if we think wht is right and what is not, is actually happening under HIS hukum.

Sikh means a life long learner, and best learning comes through asking questions, I am glad that kids are asking these questions. At least they are using the power given by GOD, the power to think and reflect and make the right informed decision of thier actions.

Guru Arjan DEv ji, accepted the Hukum. He could have also agreed to Jahangir's demands and still utter the same words saying "It was His Hukum"

But Guru ji did not do that, cos through Gurbani's enlightenment he made a decision to go against Jahangir's cruelity. He stood by what he preached. He stood by the right. He displayed the change, he wanted in others.

Body is just a vehicle, driven by soul. Sikh way of life is all about healthy mind, body and soul. Only a healthy mind, body and soul can set a good example for others to follow and thus make the right decision.

Making the right decision is also governed by underlying intentions, if the underlying intentions are worng, decisions cant be right.

So if intentions to have medical treatment is to achieve a healthy mind , body and soul then there is nothing wrong in it.


Now if I am sick and medical operation requires me to cut my hair for a short time span, i cant find anything wrong  in it as I am following the target towards healthy mind, body and soul guided by Gurbani. Once I am healthy, obivioulsy my hair will grow back ( this is intention). 


On the other hand, in most of the cases, piercing is mainly governed by social acceptance. it is either lack of confidence in oneself or following others without any thoughtful reflection before making this decision. Cos social acceptance is mainly led by fear of rejection, whereas Gurbani guides us to be Nirbhau (ie. fearless)


rest on your thoughts..



keep flowing....


Rupinder Singh

mundahug


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## sdad (Oct 13, 2010)

eropa234,

My definition of munmukh is slightly different, it's somebody egoistic who does what he likes, and Gurmukh is someone who goes on what Guru-ji / Akaal-purakh requires so he/she listens to this / inner self and puts it into action.


Gurfateh!


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## sdad (Oct 13, 2010)

WGJKK WGJKF spnadmin,

I'll try and explain (I know I am not too good at this): I said medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum as; my part definition of Hukum may be different to yours- although some may call this the inner voice, I also call this his Hukum, and from my personal experiences not listening to these has had dire consequences. I believe WaheGuru-ji has given us a choice, akin to a driver of this vehicle who chooses to obey road laws or not. Not obeying the laws may result in fines or accidents etc (hence, Misalignment), If ones mind is in turmoil than it's likely this will manifest itself into a a physical condition which in turn may require medical attention. If one absolutely believes in the Guru-ji, their mind is not going to get into any turmoil so the issue does not arise.
As another example if one goes overboard on drink when clearly the bani says otherwise than the consequences may lead to liver damage (hence, Misalignment). I fear the mis-understanding may have been down to my limited vocabulary / definations.

Bhul Chuk maaf.
Gurfateh!


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## eropa234 (Oct 13, 2010)

sdad said:


> WGJKK WGJKF spnadmin,
> 
> I'll try and explain (I know I am not too good at this): I said medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum as; my part definition of Hukum may be different to yours- although some may call this the inner voice, I also call this his Hukum, and from my personal experiences not listening to these has had dire consequences. I believe WaheGuru-ji has given us a choice, akin to a driver of this vehicle who chooses to obey road laws or not. Not obeying the laws may result in fines or accidents etc (hence, Misalignment), If ones mind is in turmoil than it's likely this will manifest itself into a a physical condition which in turn may require medical attention. If one absolutely believes in the Guru-ji, their mind is not going to get into any turmoil so the issue does not arise.
> As another example if one goes overboard on drink when clearly the bani says otherwise than the consequences may lead to liver damage (hence, Misalignment). I fear the mis-understanding may have been down to my limited vocabulary / definations.
> ...



In that case how does mind or body deal with viruses, bacteria and genetic makeup of human body. Most of these elements are external and what about weakening of the immune system simply due to age.


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## sdad (Oct 13, 2010)

eropa234,

IMHO, aging is part of his hukum. Also as you know viruses don't effect every body the same way, I even recall a women in her 90s who told me she had never suffered from even a flu. Also, in my view the immune systems are definately effected by mind and thoughts, etc.
Anyway, I don't profess to knowing everything, I am mearly sharing my understanding.

Gurfateh!


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## spnadmin (Oct 13, 2010)

sdad said:


> WGJKK WGJKF spnadmin,
> 
> I'll try and explain (I know I am not too good at this): I said medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum as; my part definition of Hukum may be different to yours- although some may call this the inner voice, I also call this his Hukum, and from my personal experiences not listening to these has had dire consequences. I believe WaheGuru-ji has given us a choice, akin to a driver of this vehicle who chooses to obey road laws or not. Not obeying the laws may result in fines or accidents etc (hence, Misalignment), If ones mind is in turmoil than it's likely this will manifest itself into a a physical condition which in turn may require medical attention. If one absolutely believes in the Guru-ji, their mind is not going to get into any turmoil so the issue does not arise.
> As another example if one goes overboard on drink when clearly the bani says otherwise than the consequences may lead to liver damage (hence, Misalignment). I fear the mis-understanding may have been down to my limited vocabulary / definations.
> ...



sdad ji

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your views. It seems we are then in close agreement, and what seemed to be a difference of views may have been nothing more than a difference in specific uses of words.  Semantics!


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## seeker3k (Oct 13, 2010)

Hukam?
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
Very interesting topic.
<o> </o>
Those who believe in Hukam have difficulty with many choices. No two people will agree to same hukam. 
<o> </o>
What about some of the choices: putting cloths on, we came to this world naked. What about going to school learning other languages? How do we choose what to eat?
Should we do exercise? Getting medical treatment to enhance our body and it strong? Should we compete in games? Which religion one choose? 
Is it God’s hukam or Nanak’s or Gobind Singh’s?
<o> </o>
Those don’t believe in hukam still have to choose. What they are not bogged down by so called hukam.
<o> </o>
It is the Christians who coined the tem that we have free will. I had discussion with Christian about this free will.  If I drive and come to T junction I have 2 choices turn left or turn right. If I believe that God knows past n future then I God knows which way I am going to go. Where is the free will in that? God have already decided which way I am going to turn. Or can I over ride God’s decision?
<o> </o>
You see it is very difficult.
<o> </o>
What ever is happening is for a reason. If we think we are choosing one thing and it did not happen then it is also in the hukam. If I am doing bad things then it is also in the huakm.
<o> </o>
Why worry just live what is the hukam. We can not change it. Going to get the medical or not is both in the hukam


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 13, 2010)

HUKAMu and MEDICAL TREATMENT
HUKAMu is the order of THE CREATOR and SHABADu is the seal of the Hukamu.
Since the UNIVERSE is subject to change everymoment therefore HUKAMu of the CREATOR is a continuous function of time and every development in any field of our life is the direct result of Hukamu only.Thus  in future times whatever comes before us is the Hukamu of the CREATOR.
In view of above consideration all sorts of ailments are also the result of Hukamu.Similarly Hukamu provides the solutions to the ailments as well.
We remain ignorant about the knowledge of Hukamu because our thought process is under the influence of TRINTY and DUAL characteristics of the UNIVERSE.Unless we come out of this influebce of the Universe it is not possible to grasp the concept of HUKAMu and SHABADu as its SEAL'
There is deep philosophy of ailments in ones life .There is a complex controlling system resposible for various ailments varying from person to person.
GURBAANI does tell us as "SARAB ROG KA AUKHADHu NAAMu{SUKMANI SAHIB} and there are several quotes in Gurbaani in this regard.But there is Ultimate decsion like
"NAAMu AUKHADu SOI JANu PAAWE, KARi KIRPAA JISu AAPi DIWAAWE"pp178-179SGGS ji
indicating and confirming the concept of Hukamu of the CREATOR'
Under these circumstances Gurbaani tells us to to tune our thought process with NAAMu of the CREATOR  making sincere request{ARDAASi}to bless us for elimination of our AILMENTS.
With the grace of SATiGURU Ji 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Oct 13, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga ji

For those forum members still under the  Influence of the Universe, some moderation questions for you 

Some of us need to understand your thinking. Would you please go into more detail regarding this point?



> Unless we come out of this influebce of the Universe it is not possible to grasp the concept of HUKAMu and SHABADu as its SEAL'



Would you be more specific as to how the Shabad is* the seal o*f the Hukam? What do you mean by "seal?"

Also please post an entire saloka, or point us to an Ashtipaadi, where the shabad is explained to be the seal of His hukam. That would be most helpful.

I have provided a link to the Sukhmani  http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.p..._sahib&action=pagebypage&Action=Page&page=262

Thank you for your kind efforts


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## findingmyway (Oct 13, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Some among us sikhs DIDNT ACCEPT the HUKM...chief one is Baba SRI CHAND who DEFIED his father and revolted to set up his own Panth...Baba Mohree who KICKED Guru Amardass ji in Public...Baba Prithi Chand who worked day and night to kill his younger brother for the assets of Guru Ghar....and many many MORE INFAMOUS SIKHS also exist in our History.



But no-one is outside of Waheguru's hukam so surely these people are also acting within hukam (even though they behaved in a wrong way)? They defied the Guru's hukam but surely cannot be behaving outside of Akal Purakh's hukam?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 13, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> But no-one is outside of Waheguru's hukam so surely these people are also acting within hukam (even though they behaved in a wrong way)? They defied the Guru's hukam but surely cannot be behaving outside of Akal Purakh's hukam?



These people didnt "accept" the Hukm...the non-acceptance is still His HUKM.
HUKM is a LAW..just like Gravity...Nature...the Universe..everything runs under the Law or HUKM...Hukmeh andaar SABH KO....bahar HUKM na koi.cheerleader


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## whatcomesafterfour (Oct 13, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> These people didnt "accept" the Hukm...the non-acceptance is still His HUKM.
> HUKM is a LAW..just like Gravity...Nature...the Universe..everything runs under the Law or HUKM...Hukmeh andaar SABH KO....bahar HUKM na koi.cheerleader


Is a psycopath killer acting as per Hukum?


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## Rupinder.Singh (Oct 14, 2010)

Now the Question is diverting towards 

"What is Hukum"

I would say Hukum is Law of Nautre, 

The LAW, that a scientiest can explore, study and understand but can not create.

Scientists can use these laws for the benefit of humanity or destruction of humanity, 

The Law, that water flows towards lower side, was not created by scientists.

The Law that Hydrogen is explosive, was not created by scientists.

Scientists can only identify , study and device ways to utilise these laws.

This is Hukum, WE can only understand as much we have explored it, but saying that we explored and understood complete Hukum is mere illusion.

Now, construction and destruction are two sides of one coin, as are the action and reaction. they cant exist without each other. 

Similarly learning comes through, reactions to the things happening around us. and that reaction is called reflections of thoughts. This is human nature. 

It is famous that "Necessecity is the mother of invention", but who is the mother of "Necessecity"....it is relection of thoughts....our need to invent bicycle was result of reflections on time taken to travel from one point to another.

This is human nature, this is how we have evolved, this is how we learn. this may also be law of nature or HUKAM.

This is the way GOD makes us to learn, by providing us the opportunities to learn, then it may be through a psychopath killer, He encourages us to raise our thought level, it may be through Jahangir, HE encourages us to stand against cruelity, or  It may be through a Quesion on this forum that we are all discussing "HUKUM". 

So everything is happening according to HIS HUKUM, need is to learn and evolve ourselves by understanding and accepting the HUKUM.

Rest on your thoughts

Keep Flowing...


Rupinder Singh
mundahug


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 14, 2010)

whatcomesafterfour said:


> Is a psycopath killer acting as per Hukum?


..

Whatcomesafterfour...FIVE ?? Only Five.. or whatcomesBEFORE Four....Singh1, Singh2 ???swordfight

Forget about the pasychopath killer or life saver...even the wind cannot move a single leaf without HIS HUKM.
cheerleader


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 14, 2010)

SPNADMIN,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
HUKAMu is an implied act of the CREATOR of the Universe.There are several quotes in Gurbaani related to HUKAMu but nowhere HUKAMu is defined.
The word HAKUMu is Noun and SINGULAR grammatically therefore it refers to a Single act of the CREATOR and this can be corelted to a Quote from JAPji Sahib as "EKAA KAWAO TIS TE HOE LAKH DARIAO".
About HUKAMu from Gurbaani we also come to know that
...HUKAMu has to be recognised
...HAKUMu has to be known and
...HAKUMu has to be accepted.
Since the Universe itself is Creation of the SHABADU therefore it is this reference for SHABADu being implied as SEAL of the HUKAMu.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Bmandur (Oct 14, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> That is WHY Guru Arjun Ji accepted the fact that for Him..HUKM is to sit on the Hot Plate. Read His Gurbani..DOSH na kahoon deon..I DONT BLAME anyone per se..Simply because Jehnagir is also in HIS HUKM..Chandu is also in HIS HUKM..the Jalaad pouring hot burning sand onto Guru Jis head is also in HIS HUKM....Nature at its BURNING HOTTEST SUMMER is also in HIS HUKM...so since everything is HIS HUKM...who can be "blamed"...DOSH NA KAHOON DEON...every piece in the JIGSAW has its UNIQUE PLACE..and Guru Arjun Ji's just happens to be on the HOT PLATE.....while Jehangir's is on his throne at delhi. BOTH are in HIS HUKM. This is why Guru Ji DID NOT ASK Akal Purakh..O FATHER..why do you give ME this poison cup of death to drink ??? Why did you seat me on this burning plate ?? Ours not to question WHY..ours is to do and Die...Each of the Hundreds of thousnads of SIKHS standing in line behind our Sharomani Shaheed Guru Arjun Ji Sahib didnt for a split second DOUBT the HUKM..."why me ??" why not him ??....EACH..even those as young as ZORAWAR SINGH..only FIVE ACCEPTED the HUKM.
> 
> Some among us sikhs DIDNT ACCEPT the HUKM...chief one is Baba SRI CHAND who DEFIED his father and revolted to set up his own Panth...Baba Mohree who KICKED Guru Amardass ji in Public...Baba Prithi Chand who worked day and night to kill his younger brother for the assets of Guru Ghar....and many many MORE INFAMOUS SIKHS also exist in our History.


 
Eh bhee Waheguru daa hee hukam hai jo Asi medical treatment Vasty jandhy haan
Gurfateh


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## spnadmin (Oct 14, 2010)

prakash s baggu ji

Thank you for your perspective on Hukam. I do not believe you have answered my questions. I have re-posted my comment addressed to you.

:happykaur:






spnadmin said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji
> 
> For those forum members still under the  Influence of the Universe, some moderation questions for you
> 
> ...


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## manbir (Oct 14, 2010)

We human being have been given a body form which we so cherish. Have we ever pondered how valuable this gift of Akalpurakh to us is ! If we start calculating the worth of this Human form of our in terms of money, we may run short of numbers to complete the valuation of the Human from that we have been given practically Free.
Why did Waheguru give us this form ? The simple purpose for Akalpurkh to give us this Human form is that He placed Two of His very important wonders in it. Mun and Mind are two special creations that are placed by the Akalpurkh into the Human Body. In fact a full Human Form is the combination of Body Mun and Mind. 

Our Guru Ji clearly tells us: ‘Gobind Milan ke eh teeri Baria’ This is our perhaps only chance to meet Gobind. 
We need all the Three Wonderful Gifts of Akalpurakh to make us fulfill our desire of Gobind Milan. 

Only a Healthy Body can keep a Clean Mun and Mind. 
It becomes our foremost duty to keep our Body Healthy and Happy so as to keep a Spiritually vibrant Mun & Mind.
The role of Medical treatment at the time of need can not be overemphasized. Rather best possible medical help should be considered a basic need and duty for all of us. 

Our Body is His House. We are always asking Him to come to my House. Shouldn’t we always endeavour to keep it Clean Beautiful and Healthy for That Guest.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 14, 2010)

SPNADMIN,DIVINE GREETINGS,
At the very start I have mentioned that the HUKAMu is as implied act of THE CREATOR of the UNIVERSEThere is no such saloka or quote which directly tells about the SHABADu as Its SEAL.
Since HUKAMU is required to be understood  and this can be done thru the understanding of SHABADu  so this is also an implication only.May or May not be acceptable perception.,
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## sunmukh (Oct 14, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> A question that frequently comes up in kids gurmat classes which I am unable to satisfactorily answer is:
> 
> If we are supposed to accept Waheguru's hukam and retain the body in the state given to us by Him, then why is medical treatment acceptable?
> 
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

This is so odd. I hadn't noticed this thread till now, yet on way back from work earlier  today, I was thinking about exactly the same thing. I was thinking about how people would have considerably shorter life expectancies, if it were not for modern medicine. I concluded it was better for society as a whole if people died naturally, and if life was not extended artificially. Animals manage to flourish, until humans interefere. Humans generally use the extra time to use more natural resources, quicker and quicker, and eventually their waste of them will lead to great suffering for vast numbers of people. There will have to be readjustment when resources do run out, but if people simply accepted natural life expectancy, and lived in a non-materialistic way, then the planet would be able to support all life forms for so much longer. 

Maybe God will send some uncurable disease, or an asteroid will hit the earth, that makes the adjustment. 

Best for me to use the few days of my own life that are left,  to remember God. I don't know when it will end, but I know I wouldn't go in for any major treatment to try to prolong it.  A paracetemol to cure the headache or toothache is ok, but heart surgery, or kidney dialysis, or cancer chemotherapy  is a big no-no-no. I would rather accept Kal's call on the door.

Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin (Oct 14, 2010)

sunmukh said:


> ...A paracetemol to cure the headache or toothache is ok, but heart surgery, or kidney dialysis, or cancer chemotherapy  is a big no-no-no. I would rather accept Kal's call on the door.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal



sunmukh ji

These are some hypothetical questions. I know you will answer in an outstanding way. 

Suupose a majority of the Sikh quom would agree with what you have stated above, and then tried to impose its opinion on others who dd  not agree. Would you be comfortable with that scenario?

Or suppose parents were to withhold some forms of treatment from children because they themselves did not accept heart surgery or dialysis through their own intepretations of gurbani. Would you be comfortable with that?  

Would you be willing to accept withholding heart surgery or dialysis from any and all professed Sikhs, as a matter of Sikh rehit?

Would you be concerned if cultural opinion went against heart surgery or dialysis, in spite of no argument against medical treatment in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

The very practical Sikh Rehat Maryada sets forth the minimum number of regulations and rules needed to live one's life as a Sikh. When we speak against medical treatment most of the time this comes from either ingrained familial values or local cultural values, it trumps SRM, and has almost nothing to do with the Shabad. Such beliefs may also result from personal reflection. But when they come as spiritual revelation - no blood transfusions, no anti-biotics, no vaccinations  (Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists) - then the right to live one's religion  and values conflicts with the obligation of government to protect the rights of people who disagree, people who like children cannot speak for themselves, and the rights of society at large. So the questions boil down to this one:

Should we allow our preference for  naturalistic states to be entrenched in culture and law because of personal definitions we have for "hukam."


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## spnadmin (Oct 14, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga ji




prakash.s.bagga said:


> SPNADMIN,DIVINE GREETINGS,
> At the very start I have mentioned that the HUKAMu is as implied act of THE CREATOR of the UNIVERSEThere is no such saloka or quote which directly tells about the SHABADu as Its SEAL.
> Since HUKAMU is required to be understood  and this can be done thru the understanding of SHABADu  so this is also an implication only.May or May not be acceptable perception.,
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Then why did you bring that up in the first place, in two different places. You continue to shift rather than explain. 



> Since the Universe itself is Creation of the SHABADU therefore it is this reference for SHABADu being implied as SEAL of the HUKAMu.





> Unless we come out of this influebce of the Universe it is not possible to grasp the concept of HUKAMu and SHABADu as its SEAL'



The second quote implies that forum members must agree with you in order to prove that they are up to your level in spirituality. And if they do not agree, it means they are still under the influence of the Universe. Please point out to me who is not under the influence of the Universe (they are physically born and they physically die). This thread is about medical treatment. Medical treatment is part of the physical universe. Your comments border on being morally irresponsible in this situation, because they can be taken as advice to avoid medical treatment for spiritual reasons.


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## findingmyway (Oct 14, 2010)

sunmukh said:


> A paracetemol to cure the headache or toothache is ok, but heart surgery, or kidney dialysis, or cancer chemotherapy  is a big no-no-no. I would rather accept Kal's call on the door.
> Sat Sri Akal



Why the difference between paracetamol and heart surgery? They are both interventions! 

What about inherited disorders or disorders that are not fatal but degrade quality of life and/or independence? For example, cataracts cause blindness. An operation to remove the cataract will restore vision and make you a more useful member of society? Is the blindness and resultant reliance on others also promoted in abstaning from medical treatment? What about mental health disorders which require medication, eg schizophrenia? Without medication they will not die but can have a negative impact on society.

How about other interventions such as physiotherapy? Or preventative actions such as vaccination which have a positive impact on society as a whole? Measles for example is very nasty and causes much pain but only rarely kills. Same with flu in the elderly.

Some of the children I have worked with who would have died without medical help, have ended up being more wonderful souls and have done more good for this Earth than their healthy counterparts!

Surely it is possible to live a simple, non-materialistic life without having to die early? Older people often act as an anchor in our modern fast moving life and are often the best influences on the people around them! Possibly it is better for society to retain them for their wisdom and ability to give perspective rather than lose them. Without perspective, materialism is likely to increase.

The environment is indeed a mess. A mess that I'm very passionate about. But surely the best way to tackle that is to raise awareness about habits amongst those you come into contact with so more can be done to preserve the Earth's treasures. And you can only be a campaigner when alive! Having a wasteful life then dying early isn't the answer IMHO.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for joining the debate


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## seeker3k (Oct 14, 2010)

Every thing is in hukam. That’s why it was said
Tera tujh ko somp dia kia lage mera


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## gurbanicd (Oct 15, 2010)

dear all

many thanks for discussion on this topic .I was always looking for answer on this topic 

but still i am confused and would be greatly thankful if some spiritual souls who can clarify the hukum, gurbani and medical treatment.

gurbani says sarb rog ka aukhad naam

for hukum gurbani says 

eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujhai jio

haume ehi hukum hai paeie kirt firae

jraa mraa taap sirt saap sabh har key vas hai
koi laag na sakey bin har ka laya

please reply

bhul chuk maaf


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## gurbanicd (Oct 15, 2010)

eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujai jio


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## Bmandur (Oct 15, 2010)

gurbanicd said:


> dear all
> 
> many thanks for discussion on this topic .I was always looking for answer on this topic
> 
> ...


*ਹੁਕਮ*ੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko▫e.

Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.
ਨਾਨਕ *ਹੁਕਮ*ੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego

ਜਾ ਹੋਆ *ਹੁਕਮ*ੁ ਕਿਰਸਾਣ ਦਾ ਤਾ ਲੁਣਿ ਮਿਣਿਆ ਖੇਤਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Jā ho▫ā hukam kirsāṇ ḏā ṯā luṇ miṇi▫ā kẖeṯār. ||2||
When the landlord gives the order, they cut and measure the crop.


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## spnadmin (Oct 15, 2010)

gurbanicd said:


> eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujai jio




gurbanicd ji

I appreciate your confusion. But let me give notice that SPN is an Internet forum, and as such cannot *appear *to allow members to dispense medical advice. Likewise *we cannot make it seem* that medical care goes against the Hukam of Waheguru.  If SPN did that the forum would have  a certain amount of moral and legal responsibility for the results. 

Therefore, ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego

Unlike many religions, in Sikhism, there are no humans at the top of the pyramid of authority or knowledge who can  tell you what you should believe. Members give opinions. Some opinions are closer to the words of Guruji, others are not. Discussions on the Internet can never be substitutes for the work we need to do ourselves.

Many thanks and good luck


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## seeker3k (Oct 15, 2010)

gurbanicd said:


> eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujai jio


 

This is very intrusion point what gurbanicd wrote. It raise few points in my mind.

*eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujai jio*
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->*<o> </o>*

Eka naam mean there is only one naam it is from hukam of God. This naam is made it known by satguru. Says Nanak.
 I know many people will think that Nanak is satguru. And some will argue that satguru is God.

Does any one see what I see?

Sorry if I am taking this forum in different direction

*seekr3 jio

It is a great observation. Intriguing. It is taking the discussion away from the core subject. *


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 15, 2010)

Not Exactly...in my opinion NAAM means OBEYING THE HUKM. The TWO have to be TOGETHER...one cannot possibly be a "person of Naam" and NOT OBEY the HUKM..and one who Obeys the HUKM automatically is  a Naam Person !!
THIS is why the GURBANI/GURMATT is for PRACTISING...APPLYING....OBEYING THE HUKM !! Gurbani tell us HOW to OBEY...what happens to those who OBEY...and how exhilirating it is to OBEY......OBEY...OBEY..OBEY..and one turns into a Naam Bhiyasee Brahmgyani..one with the Brahm...
People have gotten onto the wrong paths when they choose one "word" and call it Naam and then begin RECITING/JAPPING....without OBEYING....APPLYING....PRACTISING the Naam in Essence...


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## Rajwinder (Oct 16, 2010)

Answering the original question :

- "Keeping our body in the same form as created by Waheguru" surely is a gesture of respect to him.
- Design of the body is surely marvelous. 
- But maintenance of this body is up to us humans.
- We cant deny contribution of science in helping maintaining this body, Gone cases 20 years back are normal cases now.
- But at the same time science can not answer all the "why" but i think Guru Granth Sahib ji do answer that.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 16, 2010)

Guru Ji told the Sidhs and the Yogis in Sidh Ghhosht...."WHY waste your precious time..in useless pursuits..such as WHICH WORD did the Creator use to produce the Universe..some beleive it was OM..other s said its KUN..and so on...GURU JI said.."whne the Creator "said" that WORD..no one was around to hear it....and so ONLY the Creator KNOWS..why do we waste our time trying to find out what we cannot ever KNOW !!!....and so on and so on..People just like to argue..endlessly....arguing...waste of time...
BEGIN READING...APPLYING...GURBANI in our LIVES..to CHANGE for the better..


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 16, 2010)

RAJWINDER Ji.
ACCEPT my Divine Greetings,
I fully appreciate yoour views.
I hope we can interact more on how the concept of modern science and Gurbaani 
convey similar messages to us.
with best wishes
Prakash.s.bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 16, 2010)

sdad ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:



> In addition, it is possible that* past karma *requires a person to go through something so they may learn and move on,



Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by *past karma*?Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 16, 2010)

*Discussions of  Gurbani grammar in threads where it is not relevant to core issues and adds nothing to their understanding will be deleted without warning. *


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## spnadmin (Oct 16, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> RAJWINDER Ji.
> ACCEPT my Divine Greetings,
> I fully appreciate yoour views.
> I hope we can interact more on how the concept of modern science and Gurbaani
> ...




If SPN members wish to carry this concept of modern science and Gurbani further, please start a new thread. All members are encourage to start threads. However,please investigate earlier threads started and discussed on your topic of choice to avoid duplication and redundancy. Thank you


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## sunmukh (Oct 16, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam



spnadmin said:


> Suupose a majority of the Sikh quom would agree with what you have stated above, and then tried to impose its opinion on others who dd not agree. Would you be comfortable with that scenario?
> 
> Or suppose parents were to withhold some forms of treatment from children because they themselves did not accept heart surgery or dialysis through their own intepretations of gurbani. Would you be comfortable with that?



SPNadmin ji, this is a very tricky topic. 

It is almost impossible to reconcile personal opinion on such a theme with all interpretations of Gurbani. 

Gurbani is there, for all to read and consider, but people will still interpret the Lord's Hukam as it suits their personal circumstances, and this includes myself. Then there are those who are content to ignore the Lord's Hukam. 

I have no panacea or chintaman (touchstone) type solution to offer to the infinite variety of anxieties expressed by learned members. 

As far as I can make out, Gurbani offers one universal remedy to all my woes and suffering, now and yet to experienced later on in this lifetime. For me, from a completely personal individual view, (which some may perceive as a selfish view), it is a sufficient solution. 

An example of the remedy is given by Guru Ram Das ji, in the shabd commencing P1321:



> <TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਕਲਿਆਨ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
> Kali▫ān mėhlā 4.
> Kalyaan, Fourth Mehl:
> 
> ...



Guru ji continues (same page) :



> <TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤੁਮ ਦੇਹੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਮ ਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥
> Jo har su▫āmī ṯum ḏeh so▫ī ham pāvhage.
> Whatever You give me, O my Lord and Master - that is what I receive.
> 
> ...


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

and also on same page: 

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>





> </TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਲਿਆਨੁ ਭੋਪਾਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪
> Kali▫ān bẖopālī mėhlā 4
> Kalyaan Bhopaalee, Fourth Mehl:
> 
> ...


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

For answers to particular hypothetical scenarios:

- I would not be comfortable with any religious grouping trying to impose their values. It is for the Lord God, Waheguru ji, to guide individuals. 

- If parents tried to restrict medical aid to their own children I would respect their decisions. This is little different to the conditioning that takes place. As long as their is no deliberate abuse or efforts to speed up sufffering I would have no problem. Ideally, I would like the children to make the decisions, when they are mentally mature, such as when they are over 16 or so, so I would prefer that medical assistance was provided until they can make that decision. If they are mentally incapictated, then as a parent I would have to balance their suffering, with the quality of life they will endure. If there is cause for optimism, and good chance of improvement, then I would carry on with their treatment. If outlook was grim, I would request an end to treatment. 

Personally, one of my daughters has Type 1 diabetes, which began at age 13. She cannot survive without regular injections of insulin each day. She is now 15. Initially I was very concerned for her, but now it is up to her as to how she handles her treatment, and she actually rejects interference. She knows the consequences, and it is up to her. 



> Would you be willing to accept withholding heart surgery or dialysis from any and all professed Sikhs, as a matter of Sikh rehit?
> 
> Would you be concerned if cultural opinion went against heart surgery or dialysis, in spite of no argument against medical treatment in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?


 
Again, I don't feel it is for religions to involve themselves at personal levels, and medical treatment is a personal matter. If Sikh Rehat insisted upon witholding treatment, I would accept it, as that is waht I want anyway. However if I was of the opposite view, I expect I would ignore the Sikh Rehat. 

If cultural opinion was against treatment for serious ailments, then I would be happy with it. It is an attitude I would support, as I do not feel their is virtue in seeking to defeat the Lord's Hukam . 



> Should we allow our preference for naturalistic states to be entrenched in culture and law because of personal definitions we have for "hukam."


 
SPNadmin ji, this is already the state we find ourselves in. There are already people who cannot afford treatment, and there are those who do not seek treatment, even when they can affford it. Any worded definitions of the Lord's Hukam cannot describe the complexity and infinite variations, manifestations and fexibility of the Lord's Hukam. Any new rigid manmade hukam, in say the SRM, limiting exercise of such preferences, would only lead to ones who hold naturalistic preferences to either ignore them or to stray and look elsewhere. There is much straying from Sikhi due to unpalatable hukams as it is, and one would wonder why there is a need to become yet more restrictive, when the Lord pervades throughout His creation. 

P396:



> ਤੇਰਾ ਹਕੁ ਮੁ ਅਪਾਰ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥
> tayraa hukam apaar hai ko-ee ant na paa-ay.
> Your Command is infinite; no one can find its limit


.

Sat Sri Akal


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## sunmukh (Oct 16, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam




findingmyway said:


> Why the difference between paracetamol and heart surgery? They are both interventions!
> 
> What about inherited disorders or disorders that are not fatal but degrade quality of life and/or independence? For example, cataracts cause blindness. An operation to remove the cataract will restore vision and make you a more useful member of society? Is the blindness and resultant reliance on others also promoted in abstaning from medical treatment? What about mental health disorders which require medication, eg schizophrenia? Without medication they will not die but can have a negative impact on society.
> 
> ...


 
Findmyway ji, I thank you for your response. 

Finding solutions that are always running in accord with a single track one-way path are very diificult to find. I cannot for the life of me say where exactly I would draw the line between one form of ailment and another, or one form of treatment and another. I can only comment loosely with use of extremes, such as paracetemol vs heart surgery. Where the line is drawn, if and when I come to a situation where I need to make a critical decision that will determine my life will depend on my frame of mind at the time. Hopefully I will still remember Guru ji's advice at that time, will retain full faith in God, and will not be clinging on with my finger nails for a few extra months or years. I hope my faith will allow me to progress to my next life, without any fear of death. If I am extremely fortunate, I will not be reborn. The Lord God will look after me hereafter as well as now, so I have no such fear at the moment; however I do not know how I will feel as death draws closer. Hopefully I will fortify my mind yet further, in coming months and years, with Gurbani, and maybe some selected extracts from Buddhist technical texts. With this knowledge I hope to avoid gasping for a bit longer, when I reach my end. 

If I need to make a decision about my youngest child, if he becomes very ill, then my wife's thoughts will weigh deeply upon my mind, as will any doctor's opinion about future quality of life and prognosis. 

What is good and bad is subjective, so even if children who receive treatment are deemed to do more for society than others who receive no treatment, I don't think it is fair to use this as a reason for saying this justifies the treatment. The reason why and when one enters the human life form, or when one leaves is in the hands of the Lord, and He determines what is good and bad, and He is the cause of all actions during life anyway. He is the architect of destiny. 

If I as an individual see my purpose of life to be over, then I am content to not receiving any treatment. If I see there is more to be done, then I may seek treatment. I am not here to make money, to win respect or status. They will not go forward, and I have only my innermost mind to take forward to next birth. At this moment, I feel Gurbani has shown me why I am here, and I have understood why I am here, and I have faith In God. I love Him. I really do, and I dwell on Him as much as possible, and care for little else, including all religions, even though it was Sikh religion that brought me to this state of mind. They are now seen as just another tool provided by the Lord, to take me to Him. He is all that counts, although I will continue with my daily life. I have full expectation that He will not let me down hereafter. He can take me when He wants. I neither need to take forward steps or backward steps from death. It will happen at a time of His choosing. 

One does not have to take any steps to make oneself die earlier than one would naturally, but if one is dying then there is no need to intervene. God is the one who looks after all, and God determines life and death. If one dies 5 or 10 or 20 or 50 years earlier than others it is no big deal. God
 will still look after all, even afterwards. One harvests what one sows and if I behave, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to fear from death, and I can actually look forward to it,  without jumping towards it. 

Sat Sri Akal


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 16, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> A question that frequently comes up in kids gurmat classes which I am unable to satisfactorily answer is:
> 
> If we are supposed to accept Waheguru's hukam and retain the body in the state given to us by Him, then why is medical treatment acceptable?
> 
> ...



Jasleen ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for the intriguing question which has led to a wonderful interaction.

Allow me to pitch in my 2 cent worth.

I must admit on the offset that I am sorry to say I do not find any connection between Hukam and medical treatment.

Sikh means a learner, a seeker, a student, a problem solver, a person who can turn the stumbling blocks into stepping stones.

Hukam is both an acceptance and a challenge. Hukam is the first and the last word; however there is a span between the two to be filled by us. Now, the question arises what tools to use to fill in this span.

The latest example is in the recent events in Copiapo (pot of gold), Chile. There were 35 miners in total. As soon as two of them left, the wall collapsed and the 33 got stuck. They had rations for 2 days which they extended to 17 days by eating half a spoon of tuna daily till the small hole was drilled and the outer world who had thought all had been dead came to the realisation that all were found alive. It was all Hukam. Hukam is not the acceptance of things in a passive manner but being proactive about things. 

Finding solutions to the problems faced is also Hukam. Hukam is not about giving up but about moving forward after its acceptance.

Hukam has allowed the research in all possible fields including the medical field. Soon, the first person with the spinal cord injury will be able to benefit from the embryonic stem cells research.

We are very fortunate to have Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru, our Tool Box, our only GPS which guides us and offers us the tools to excel in any and every field we may choose. This is the DNA of Sikhi. This is the Hukam.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 17, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji

I am always humbled by these thoughts




Tejwant Singh said:


> Hukum is both an acceptance and a challenge. Hukum is the first and the last word; however there is a span between the two to be filled by us. Now, the question arises what tools to use to fill in this span.
> 
> ...
> Finding solutions to the problems faced is also Hukam. Hukam is not about giving up but about moving forward after its acceptance.
> ...




I think this is a good example from the field of medicine. Two generations ago among Italian Americans, to be blind was considered a "disgrazia" -- which does not mean shame but means literally a "fall from grace." Blindness was to be endured because it fell upon an individual according to the will of God. Certainly people sought medical treatment, but at the end of the day the notion of a sort of curse always hung about the blind person and his family. Here is a Singh with a different "view" of things, a different "vision." There are dozens of Singhs and Kaurs who "see" things this way.

_*
  Restoring eyesight his vision​*
Sanjay Bumbroo talks to Mr Anup Singh Jubbal, an NRI, who plans to open a charitable eye hospital to help the needy
Tribune News Service

AMRITSAR: Mr Anup Singh Jubbal has been doing yeoman’s service to people suffering from cataract or other eye disorders by holding eye camps in the border districts of Amritsar and Tarn Taran for some time now.

Mr Jubbal, president, Canadian Eyesight International, a charitable organisation looking to provide eyesight to people in India, has been raising funds in Surrey, Canada, for setting up a state-of-the-art Sri Hargobind Sahib Mata Sulakhni Eye Hospital at Chabba in Tarn Taran.

He plans to build a hospital that would not only provide cataract surgeries free of cost and conduct eye clinics but also impart education and training to youths.

Lamenting on the lack of support from the government, Mr Jubbal, while talking with The Tribune, said he had so far not received any financial or other aid from the state or the Central governments. But if the government wanted to help them, he would welcome the move, as it would give a philip to the project.

He said a 24,000 sq ft building was recently donated by a local charitable organisation for the setting up of the project.

He was now planning to set up a permanent hospital and preventable blindness centre there.

Mr Jubbal, who has studied up to Class 12, had migrated to Canada in 1968.

In the beginning, he had to work very hard but the lady luck soon smiled at him and he set up a real estate business there.

He had to suffer losses in the business but that did not deter him from doing hard work again and getting back to his feet.

He said ups and downs in the life taught him that money could provide everything except peace of mind.

“This hospital is crucial and we need the support of the community,” said Mr Jubbal, who is also member of the Rotary Club Surrey-Guildford.

He said though eye surgery cost just Rs 1,750, it was beyond the reach of a majority of people in India, especially those living in villages.

He said blindness was 80 per cent preventable with good nutrition, sanitation, medicine or surgery.

Honoured by Prime Minister and Governor in the past for his services, Mr Jubbal said he was being well supported by his wife, Sarup Kaur Jubbal, in his cause.

He said the Project Eyesight India, under the auspices of Eyesight International in cooperation with local doctors, has been conducting eye clinics and cataract surgeries in India since 1989.

He said cataract was the result of darkening of the eye’s lens that could be caused by the rubella virus, trauma to the eye and ageing.

With surgery, impaired vision could be rectified by a lens implant, he added.

He said he had held several eye check-up camps in Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and Haryana with the support of rotary clubs of Canada and India.

So far they had restored the eyesight or performed surgery on around 43,000 persons and treated thousands more for avoidable blindness.

An eye camp was recently held in Gurdwara Parau at Fatehabad, near Goindwal Sahib, where surgeries were performed on people suffering from cataract and medicines distributed free of cost.

Mr Jubbal said people in Surrey could come to India and participate in eye clinics and get their families to attend these as well.

He said the organisation would spread the word in surrounding villages within a 10-mile radius and everyone, regardless of their age, ethnicity or religion, could attend these camps.

He added that they had also been holding free eye clinics in British Columbia. As eye examination was no longer free under the medical services plan there, people were now showing interest in getting their eyesight checked and even make donations to the hospital in order to help bring sight to countless individuals._

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20061223/aplus1.htm


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 17, 2010)

TEJWANT SINGH JI,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
You have rihgtly described the character of HUKAMu and your views are execellent example of how HUKAMu should be accepted in actual life,
Really nice thoughts,
With best wishes,
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## gurbanicd (Oct 17, 2010)

Page441 Line 19  Raag Aasaa: Guru Amar Das

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਖਰਾ ਭਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਏ ॥

hukam thaeraa kharaa bhaaraa guramukh kisai bujhaaeae ||
The Command of Your Will is very strict; how rare is the Gurmukh who understands.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 17, 2010)

With reference to the topic under discussion a freind of mine got my attention to a 
point of effect of Gurbaani in treatment of deceases.a very important conclusion which I would like to share thatGurbaani  has effect on our thought process and in that sense effects our mind response to our thoughrt process.Gurbaani positively must have healing effect on deceases arising fron our improper alignment of our thought process but what about deceases arising from out sources such as epidemic inflictions?
Probably here comes the role of HUKAMu
Prakash.S.bagga


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## spnadmin (Oct 17, 2010)

A number of messages have been deleted.  Either the complete shabad was ot posted or there was a reply to a post with a missing shabad. 

Reason: All forum members must post a complete shabad with Gurmukhi and English, along with an explanation, and Ang number. Everyone involved has been warned several times in other threads. This is a forum rule. Please abide by it. Thank you.


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## findingmyway (Oct 17, 2010)

Spnadmin ji,
Your earlier post has just inspired another thought. The biggest cause of blindness in the world is people not having access to glasses when they are needed. Although it is not strictly medical treatment, it is an intervention. For those people advocating abstinence from medical treatment, would this intervention be considered wrong too? I guess it's a slippery slope with no clear boundaries! Then again most of us live in shades of grey!


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## spnadmin (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks findinmyway ji

I think an even grayer area would be treatment for glaucoma. Untreated it leads to blindness, The interventions are a mix of medication, corrective lenses, and life-style adjustments. Cataracts is another areas. Why go blind when surgery and corrective lenses can help? Why not be able to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib at the end of life? Why have to depend on someone to read it to you ?


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## spnadmin (Oct 17, 2010)

Usually we try to give new members, and those posting for the first time, extra latitude when TOS are not observed.

Again however I repeat an entire shabad must be posted, with Ang number, in English and Gurmukhi.

In addition, sarcasm and rebuke was unnecessary. So let's give it another try. Thank you.


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2010)

whatcomesafterfour ji

Please be advised that the entire moderation team has been asked to keep an eye on your entries as possible spam.

I have myself noted that you are a master of the short, pithy remark that is only tangentially related to thread content.

Usually we allow some latitude for new members, and allow some problem posts to go forward until new members are feeling more confident with posting and participation. However in your case, *you have combined mockery with irrelevance* in nearly every thread where you have posted. And particularly in your responses to Gyani ji and to me.

P/S iRe: your witty example of a situation where I posted only one line of shabad in violation of forum rules is an excellent example of why you need to be more careful if you wish to continue as a participating member. You know full well that the single vaar was an example posted by another member, and was part of my that one-liners not be used. Do not confuse patience with anything other than patience. 

You are officially warned.


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## whatcomesafterfour (Oct 19, 2010)

spnadmin said:


> gurbanicd ji
> 
> I appreciate your confusion. But let me give notice that SPN is an Internet forum, and as such cannot *appear *to allow members to dispense medical advice. Likewise *we cannot make it seem* that medical care goes against the Hukam of Waheguru.  If SPN did that the forum would have  a certain amount of moral and legal responsibility for the results.
> 
> ...



spnadmin ji

ofcourse you hold the last say on what we can post. but in above message no where i see a reference that you are trying to mention that one line quotes are not allowed.

Again. i might be wrong and i accept that. after all this is your board.

regarding the tangential remarks -i noticed that one question on Gurparsad has been deleted.

I have posted it in Japji interpretations and i think it was a valid question.

deleting a post without informing members is, once again, up to you to decide if it is okay.

i am not flustered by the amazing scrutiny of my posts. I can even see remarks by other learned members on my id. Is it a norm here to 'joke around' and do a bit of ragging of a new poster?

I think i will continue to post until i have access, unless you want to share your 'decision' upfront rather than play out the whole sequence.

again, no intention to offend.


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2010)

Thank you for sharing your views.  P/S the post about Gurprasad was not deleted. It was used to start a new thread.


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## BALDEU (Oct 29, 2010)

Hi Jasleen Kaur,

My view is that we need to understand the core message from Guru Nanak and then review our history to better understand how to live.

The way i see things, Sikh are the only group to have a very concise easy to remember Hukum, and that is:

Kirth Karni
Naam Jaapna
Vandh Shakna.

That I feel is the Hukum we have to live to as was demonstrated by the Gurus in the years they led us.

Remember the Hundu had been convinced that he had no choice to change his destiny on earth. Yet the Gurus not only rejected that but went on to show that they could  motivate the very people condemned by the Hindu Priests (for their selfish advantage) into a class of people that changed the history of India. 

Sadly even in our Gurdwaras today, the "Hindu' has regained control and we are asked to resign ourselves and accept everything as a Hukum. 

If there is any doubt of this, look at the Sants and Babas who are now enjoying on the sweat of poor Sikhs by convincing them their reward will be in the "future". This was certainly not what our Gurus ever told us. Sure there are things beyond our control but that does not mean we neglect the very skills we are blessed wiith to make things better.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Guru Gobund Singh did not advice his sSikh to form prayer groups to rid the corrupt Muslim rulers. Instead he trained them to take charge and said that was the right thing to do for a better life. 

Baldeu


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## seeker3k (Oct 29, 2010)

I think it is about time we take the responsibly of our action. We should not keep blaming Hindus for our own great of power and money.

The hukam is the main part of the Hindu’s philosophy. They were the first who said we are guided by our karma. But every thing is controlled by God.

Most of the posts are saying I think. It is not what we think. Either we believe in hukam or we don’t. We cant have it both way. Having both ways is not in hukam.

I don’t see the moderators getting involved when some one condemn other religion. They just very fast when some thing is said against the Sikhim.

What is wrong with in life“Love thy neighbor as thy self.”
It cover every thing in life.


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## findingmyway (Oct 29, 2010)

Nobody is condemning other religions, just relating historical situations that arose. You can still love your neighbour without agreeing with their philosophy. This is a Sikhism site so its natural that undermining the Sikh beliefs will not be acceptable.

My understanding of hukam so far is that it is different in Sikhi and Hinduism. The former is proactive whereas the latter is passive. One says try your hardest and if things still don't go your way accept as the inevitable-his hukam. The other tells you to accept without doing anything and almost has a victim feel to it.


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## seeker3k (Oct 30, 2010)

When we Sikhs do some thing that it hurt others. Is that in hukam too? When things don’t go our way: your answer we that don’t worry about the hukam. Pick up sword and fight.

If we get killed by picking up sword then that is in hukam too.

It is not clearcut what is hukam. Maybe it is for you but rest of the word don’t agree with it. Or we don’t care about the rest of the world.

In democratic countries there is a process that one can follow to solve the problem. After the fighting is done we still have to sit down and negotiate.  

We Sikhs should be finding faults in our religion and correct them. 

Maybe it is in the hukam that we have to go through this period or growing pain.

This topic is good but there will never be consensus among the Sikhs.

This is very point. We have too big of ego that we can not find fault in our self. Who ever point the fault in us he is our enemy?  

He is not the enemy but he is a friend.

Don’t for get we were Hindus once. It is THE reason our kids are turning away from Sikhism.

It is all in the huakm.


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## findingmyway (Oct 31, 2010)

seeker3k said:


> When we Sikhs do some thing that it hurt others. Is that in hukam too? When things don’t go our way: your answer we that don’t worry about the hukam. Pick up sword and fight.
> 
> If we get killed by picking up sword then that is in hukam too.
> 
> ...




*None of this is related to the thread starter of hukam AND medical treatment. If you would like to discuss these views please start a new thread and return to topic here. Thank you.*


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