# Eternity Of The Soul



## abba (Sep 7, 2010)

Question about the ultimate goal of man:

Does the soul "become God" and cease to be other than God OR does the soul become "one" with God while at the same time remaining other than God (a paradox to our human minds, being one and other at the same time)?

If we "become God" this would seem to mean that our souls disappear into God, like the flame of a candle would disappear in the sun. Also, to say that "we become God" is idolatrous if you take it literally.

If we become "one with God" and remain "other than God" at the same time, then this would seem to mean that we live forever, that our distinct personalities live forever and we can enjoy and bask in the radiance of God's light forever.


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## abba (Sep 14, 2010)

I'd like to put my question another way:

My name is Abba. According to Sikh beliefs, when I eventually reach the highest level and merge with God, will Abba still exist forever or will there eventually be no more Abba?


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## Bahadar S (Sep 14, 2010)

Now I am installed on the throne of God,
Merging into him, as the wave merges into the sea,
Ram and Kabir are now one,
They cannot be distinguished.


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## abba (Sep 15, 2010)

Bahadar S said:


> Now I am installed on the throne of God,


 
You wrote "*I* am installed". Does this I - the You - Bahadar - exist forever?



> Merging into him, as the wave merges into the sea,
> Ram and Kabir are now one,
> They cannot be distinguished.


 
What are Ram and Kabir?


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## Astroboy (Sep 15, 2010)

Abba Ji,

I kind of understand where you are coming from. I, myself, have asked these questions to appease my mind. What I was actually doing was trying to satisfy my mind, eventually realized that the mind never stops asking questions. A time came when I evolved to understand, nothing changes whether the mind finally gets satisfied with very many answers because since we have a physical body we still have the "I-ness" to deal with. 

There are many gurbani quotes which attempt to give a close answer to how our illusion-filled mind would understand what we think is reality. 

E.g.
ਕਬੀਰ ਤੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਤੂ ਹੂਆ ਮੁਝ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਹੂੰ  ॥
Kabīr ṯūŉ ṯūŉ karṯā ṯū hū▫ā mujẖ mėh rahā na hūŉ.
Kabeer, repeating, "You, You", I have become like You. Nothing of me remains in myself.

ਜਬ ਆਪਾ ਪਰ ਕਾ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਇਆ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਤੂ  ॥੨੦੪॥
Jab āpā par kā mit ga▫i▫ā jaṯ ḏekẖ▫a▫u ṯaṯ ṯū. ||204||
When the difference between myself and others is removed, then wherever I look, I see only You. ||204||


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## abba (Sep 15, 2010)

Namjap Ji (means Dear?),

Thank you. Let me please ask futher:

Do Nanak and the other Gurus know what is happening on Earth right now? Do they know what is happening in the higher worlds? Do they know what is happening to themselves? Are they aware of G-d and of other souls? Can they communicate with God and with other souls?


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## findingmyway (Sep 15, 2010)

First define 'I'. Is soul part of this or all of this?


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## Seeker9 (Sep 15, 2010)

Excellent questions Abba Ji

Let's look at this form the point of view of transmigration, reincarnation and the cycle of births and deaths as determined by Karmic progress

There are rare instances where some people may remember a previous life but most of the time, those memories are wiped

I would therefore suggest that any earthly memories of earthly lifes are wiped once the Soul merges with the Source

And to be honest, who would care for such banal memories having made such an achievement in the first place! So, basically, the identity of Abba would be irrelevant and erased

That's what I think.....


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## abba (Sep 16, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> First define 'I'. Is soul part of this or all of this?


 
The good, holy, Godly, part of your soul, in other words, the essence of your soul, in other words, You without all of the negative aspects (ego, anger, lust, etc.), just the good part of you. This is what I mean by "I".


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## abba (Sep 16, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Excellent questions Abba Ji
> 
> Let's look at this form the point of view of transmigration, reincarnation and the cycle of births and deaths as determined by Karmic progress
> 
> ...


 
Seeker9 Ji,

I'm not referring to the soul having memories of everything that happened to it during it's lifetime on earth.

Right now, at this very moment, is Guru Nanak aware of God and of himself as being God's child?


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## Seeker9 (Sep 16, 2010)

Dear Abba Ji

It's a good queston

What happens when a rain drop falls into the ocean?

Does it merge and become part of the ocean?
Can it still be distinguished as an individual rain drop?

I think not

And so, my answer to your question would be no as well


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## abba (Sep 16, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Dear Abba Ji
> 
> It's a good queston
> 
> ...



So according to Sikhi, Guru Nanak has no existence. In other words, his soul was, for all intents and purposes, destroyed long ago (at the time he merged with God)?


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## Seeker9 (Sep 16, 2010)

abba said:


> So according to Sikhi, Guru Nanak has no existence. In other words, his soul was, for all intents and purposes, destroyed long ago (at the time he merged with God)?


 
Destroyed? NO ABSOLUTELY NOT!

But I can see where you are heading with this and I know there are far more learned individuals than I on this forum so I will let them answer your question

I prefer to think of altered states of existence but definitely not destruction! Is the rain drop in my earlier analogy destroyed? No off course it isn't!


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## abba (Sep 16, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Destroyed? NO ABSOLUTELY NOT!
> 
> But I can see where you are heading with this and I know there are far more learned individuals than I on this forum so I will let them answer your question
> 
> I prefer to think of altered states of existence but definitely not destruction! Is the rain drop in my earlier analogy destroyed? No off course it isn't!


 
The "drop" is destroyed in the sense that it is no longer a "drop" because all of the H2O molecules separate, i.e. one H2O molecule might end up in the Indian Ocean and another in the Atlantic. The atoms that composed the original drop might still be there, but the form of the drop disappears out of existence.

When Guru Nanak merged with God, did the "drop" of Guru Nanak disappear out of existence? Or does anything remain of the "drop" of Guru Nanak that lives forever, any consciousness that he is Guru Nanak?

If whatever is left of the "drop" of Guru Nanak can no longer experience pain, does this mean he also can no longer experience pleasure - even Godly pleasure?


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## Astroboy (Sep 16, 2010)

abba said:


> Namjap Ji (means Dear?),
> 
> Thank you. Let me please ask futher:
> 
> Do Nanak and the other Gurus know what is happening on Earth right now? Do they know what is happening in the higher worlds? Do they know what is happening to themselves? Are they aware of G-d and of other souls? Can they communicate with God and with other souls?



Guru Nanak and other living masters had reach enlightenment during their journey as human beings. Their writings are living proof of their attainment.


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## abba (Sep 20, 2010)

So according to Sikh beliefs, after our souls leave our bodies and finally merge with God, we are wiped out of existence? Isn't this what Buddhists believe? Don't they believe that Nirvana is the total extinction of consciousness? There is no more pain, but neither is there any pleasure (certainly not physical pleasure but not even spiritual bliss).

If this is Sikh belief, then all I have to look forward to for the ultimate future is the temporary pleasure of actually merging with God, but afterwards I dissipate like a drop of water and there is nothing left of me, no consciousness, no ability to have an eternal relationship with God or with other souls. I am asleep and effectively dead forever.

Is this what Sikhism says?


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## Seeker9 (Sep 20, 2010)

abba said:


> So according to Sikh beliefs, after our souls leave our bodies and finally merge with God, we are wiped out of existence? Isn't this what Buddhists believe? Don't they believe that Nirvana is the total extinction of consciousness? There is no more pain, but neither is there any pleasure (certainly not physical pleasure but not even spiritual bliss).
> 
> If this is Sikh belief, then all I have to look forward to for the ultimate future is the temporary pleasure of actually merging with God, but afterwards I dissipate like a drop of water and there is nothing left of me, no consciousness, no ability to have an eternal relationship with God or with other souls. I am asleep and effectively dead forever.
> 
> Is this what Sikhism says?


 

You appear to be very reluctant to let go of your ego! Whilst this discussion is ongoing, it would be interesting to learn more about your views in this regard.

What spiritual path/religion, (if any) do you follow and what is your understanding of what happens to the soul while we are alive and after we die?

I look forward to receiving your response


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## abba (Sep 20, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> You appear to be very reluctant to let go of your ego!


 
I would love to finally be rid of my ego, but that probably won't happen while I am alive. (ego meaning my selfish desires). But I also have Godly desires which are selfless that I believe are eternal. But even my selfish desires can be channeled for goodness while I am alive on this earth. So, I am in constant battle with my ego - if I can't destroy it, at least for the time being I can channel it towards good.




> Whilst this discussion is ongoing, it would be interesting to learn more about your views in this regard.
> 
> What spiritual path/religion, (if any) do you follow and what is your understanding of what happens to the soul while we are alive and after we die?
> 
> ...


I really don't think this public forum should be used to discuss other religions. I think we should stay on the topic of Sikhism in this public forum. I only want to ask questions about Sikhism. I am sorry that I can't answer your question here. I came on this forum to find out what Sikhism says about what will happen to the soul after we merge with God.


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## spnadmin (Sep 20, 2010)

abba said:


> I came on this forum to find out what Sikhism says about what will happen to the soul after we merge with God.



This is a very important issue. I am very heartened that you have the stamina to persist with your questions. Questions that many of us also share.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 20, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *abba*
> 
> 
> _ I came on this forum to find out what Sikhism says about what will happen to the soul after we merge with God._



Abba ji,

Guru Fateh.

According to you, what do you think happens to our Soul and what makes  you believe that we only merge with Ik Ong Kaar after death? Isn't the merger possible  in this life of  ours that we know?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## abba (Sep 20, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abba ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
Tejwant Singh ji,

With all due respect, and my apologies but I feel it is best not to tell people on this forum what my own beliefs are about the soul. I am not a prophet so I have no direct experience about what happens. I do hold certain beliefs but what does it matter on this forum? I am obviously not a Sikh and I am just trying to understand what classical Sikhi says about this topic.

However, I can tell you what I hope would happen:
1. I hope it is possible for a person to merge with God during his lifetime on earth.
2. I hope that there is reward and punishment from an all-Good, omniscient, omnipotent, God who created the world and us - out of love -  out of His desire to bestow the best possible eternal Goodness upon us according to our efforts. A God who desires to have a relationship with us forever. Not just a temporary relationship.

Are my hopes in line with Sikhism?


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## Astroboy (Sep 20, 2010)

Abba Ji,

Soul cannot be explained by the mind because it is limited to usage of language. 
Soul is beyond lingual expression. 
Kabir Ji's bani explains:-

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ  ਕੀ 
रागु गउड़ी पूरबी बावन अखरी कबीर जीउ की 
Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī bāvan akẖrī Kabīr jī▫o kī 
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Baawan Akhree Of Kabeer Jee: 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिनामु करता पुरखु गुरप्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯnām karṯā purakẖ gurparsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. By Guru's Grace: 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ  ॥ 
बावन अछर लोक त्रै सभु कछु इन ही माहि ॥ 
Bāvan acẖẖar lok ṯarai sabẖ kacẖẖ in hī māhi. 
Through these fifty-two letters, the three worlds and all things are described. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ  ॥੧॥ 
ए अखर खिरि जाहिगे ओइ अखर इन महि नाहि ॥१॥ 
Ė akẖar kẖir jāhige o▫e akẖar in mėh nāhi. ||1|| 
These letters shall perish; they cannot describe the Imperishable Lord. ||1|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਜਹਾ ਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਅਛਰ ਆਵਾ  ॥ 
जहा बोल तह अछर आवा ॥ 
Jahā bol ṯah acẖẖar āvā. 
Wherever there is speech, there are letters. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਜਹ ਅਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਮਨੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਵਾ  ॥ 
जह अबोल तह मनु न रहावा ॥ 
Jah abol ṯah man na rahāvā. 
Where there is no speech, there, the mind rests on nothing. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਬੋਲ ਅਬੋਲ ਮਧਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ  ॥ 
बोल अबोल मधि है सोई ॥ 
Bol abol maḏẖ hai so▫ī. 
He is in both speech and silence. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਜਸ ਓਹੁ ਹੈ ਤਸ ਲਖੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ  ॥੨॥ 
जस ओहु है तस लखै न कोई ॥२॥ 
Jas oh hai ṯas lakẖai na ko▫ī. ||2|| 
No one can know Him as He is. ||2|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਅਲਹ ਲਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਉ ਕਹਉ ਤ ਕੋ ਉਪਕਾਰ  ॥ 
अलह लहउ तउ किआ कहउ कहउ त को उपकार ॥ 
Alah laha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫ā kaha▫o kaha▫o ṯa ko upkār. 
If I come to know the Lord, what can I say; what good does it do to speak? 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਬਟਕ ਬੀਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ  ॥੩॥ 
बटक बीज महि रवि रहिओ जा को तीनि लोक बिसथार ॥३॥ 
Batak bīj mėh rav rahi▫o jā ko ṯīn lok bisthār. ||3|| 
He is contained in the seed of the banyan-tree, and yet, His expanse spreads across the three worlds. ||3|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਅਲਹ ਲਹੰਤਾ ਭੇਦ ਛੈ ਕਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਭੇਦ  ॥ 
अलह लहंता भेद छै कछु कछु पाइओ भेद ॥ 
Alah lahanṯā bẖeḏ cẖẖai kacẖẖ kacẖẖ pā▫i▫o bẖeḏ. 
One who knows the Lord understands His mystery, and bit by bit, the mystery disappears. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td>ਉਲਟਿ ਭੇਦ ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਓ ਪਾਇਓ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਛੇਦ  ॥੪॥ 
उलटि भेद मनु बेधिओ पाइओ अभंग अछेद ॥४॥ 
Ulat bẖeḏ man beḏẖi▫o pā▫i▫o abẖang acẖẖeḏ. ||4|| 
Turning away from the  world, one's mind is pierced through with this mystery, and one obtains  the Indestructible, Impenetrable Lord. ||4||  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 20, 2010)

abba said:


> Tejwant Singh ji,
> 
> With all due respect, and my apologies but I feel it is best not to tell people on this forum what my own beliefs are about the soul. I am not a prophet so I have no direct experience about what happens. I do hold certain beliefs but what does it matter on this forum? I am obviously not a Sikh and I am just trying to understand what classical Sikhi says about this topic.
> 
> ...



Abba ji,

Guru fateh.

In other words, you want to hitch a ride with Sikhi. Knowing me, knowing you....

Sikhi does not believe in reward or punishment, nor does it believe in Hell or Heaven or in reincarnation.

Enjoy your journey in this life. Once you have fulfilled that with the  best of your capabilities, then the rest becomes just a joy ride.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## abba (Sep 20, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abba ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...


 
No reincarnation in Sikhi? 

Good deeds do not bring good results in Sikhi? Bad deeds do not bring bad results in Sikhi?


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## Seeker9 (Sep 20, 2010)

abba said:


> I really don't think this public forum should be used to discuss other religions. I think we should stay on the topic of Sikhism in this public forum. I only want to ask questions about Sikhism. I am sorry that I can't answer your question here. I came on this forum to find out what Sikhism says about what will happen to the soul after we merge with God.



My Dear Abba Ji
I beg to differ!
We are here to learn from each other
Nobody loses when spiritual matters are discussed earnestly and constructively
Everybody gains!
So don't hold out on us please!!
welcomemunda


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## Seeker9 (Sep 20, 2010)

Dear Tejwant Ji

I have learned something new today

I did not realise reincarnation was incompatible with Sikhism

Hope you won't think I am ignorant but I would really appreciate some more information about this

Thank you


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## findingmyway (Sep 20, 2010)

abba said:


> No reincarnation in Sikhi?
> 
> Good deeds do not bring good results in Sikhi? Bad deeds do not bring bad results in Sikhi?



They do, but in our lifetime. Do unto others as you wish to be treated as otherwise bad actions will come back to bite you!! The Sikhi belief of God is a loving God. There are many threads about reincarnation on this forum including 2 from last month. It will be worth you checking those for more information and points of view :thumbsuppp:


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 20, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Dear Tejwant Ji
> 
> I have learned something new today
> 
> ...



Seeker9 ji,

Guru Fateh.

As long as we call ourselves Sikhs, we shall remain ignorant which is a gift, not a curse because it gives us room for improvement, to learn, to unlearn and to relearn.

There are several threads about reincarnation in this forum. I would urge you to go through them and also the whole Shabads that talk about reincarnation, form your own opinion or raise the questions in the forum so all of us can interact and learn from it.

The fact of the matter is that no one has comeback from their previous lives to share their new ones.

One more thing to ponder is that if one believes in reincarnation, then one also must believe in Prophets and their prophecies both of which are not about Sikhi. I call Prophets the Snake oil salesmen and prophecies the oil rub itself. There are also some threads about this subject too here. Please go through them as well and will wait for your queries along with your own understanding.


Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## abba (Sep 21, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> My Dear Abba Ji
> I beg to differ!
> We are here to learn from each other
> Nobody loses when spiritual matters are discussed earnestly and constructively
> ...


 
I am very sorry. Thanks for your welcome.


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## Seeker9 (Sep 24, 2010)

Dear Tejwant Ji and Findingmyway Ji

Many thanks for your direction

I will follow up on this and return to this thread once I have had the opportunity to learn more and increase my understanding


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