# One God



## lotus lion (Mar 2, 2008)

Hi,

I have been looking into for quite some time, but cannot explain it, i was wondering if someone can help me understand this.

According to the Guru Granth Sahib, There is only one God for all:

"There is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him" 
SGGS Ang 2

As well as:

"The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same"
SGGS Ang 897

It is incredibly beautiful and even my heart tells me the same thing, but how?

Eastern Philosophy i can merge into one as, in essence, they all teach the same thing in different ways, getting to the same final destination; Nirvana 

But how can i reconcile the Abrahmic faiths, Namely Islam, When it teachings are contrary to Sikhi. I.e No reincarnation, No Karma, and no nirvanna as well so many other things?

Any help would be appreciated,

Lotus Lion


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## Sinister (Mar 2, 2008)

lotus lion said:


> But how can i reconcile the Abrahmic faiths, Namely Islam, When it teachings are contrary to Sikhi. I.e No reincarnation, No Karma, and no nirvanna as well so many other things?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated,
> 
> Lotus Lion


 
you can't

cheers


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## singhbj (Mar 3, 2008)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

There is One God, attained by grace of SATGURU.

Now the question is, who is SATGURU or TRUEGURU ?

The one and only Satguru in this world is Guru Granth Sahib jeeo.

No one else can equal that !

Now how can anyone else provide Nirvana ?

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Khojat (Mar 3, 2008)

lotus lion said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been looking into for quite some time, but cannot explain it, i was wondering if someone can help me understand this.
> 
> ...


 
Dear Lotus Lion,

Sat Dri Akal,

The question you have raised is a very good one and has confused many a people. Often people look for answers to such deep spiritual questions by looking at the surface and throuch scholarly deductions and interpretations. Many fail other than to give a mediocre explanation. One without true faith and belief cannot come to the right understanding or interpretation because such one will be bereft of Divine Guidance.

The differences are only on the surface and only appear as differences because of difference in time period and cultural context which shape beliefs and interpretations. Religions are like a puzzle, each giving a piece of infromation about Gog and His Creation but non giving a complete version. There are Seven Heavens above the Earth and Seven Nether Worlds below. This is the belief in Sikhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. Each is filled with millions of beings, creatures, etc. Does any religion give a complete list of all that exists in these worlds? Does any give an explanations as to how wach works and why there are different levels? The answer is no.

Some of the discrepencies are due to misinterpretation. There is evidence in The Abrahamic religions do indicate that some of the Eastern beliefs are consistent with their own beliefs. Predestination, Re-birth, etc. I cannot go into a full discussion right now but if you arre interested then maybe I can share something of what I have learnt over the years. Just reply and we can continue this next time. If anyone wants to have further discussions on this or any other related matters yoou can also e-mail me at : harjindersb@gmail.com.

May Gods Blessings and Guidance be upon You.

Rgds

Khojat


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## pk70 (Mar 3, 2008)

singhbj said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> ...


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## Astroboy (Mar 3, 2008)

Khojat said:


> Dear Lotus Lion,
> 
> Sat Dri Akal,
> 
> ...


 

Khojat Ji,

I see you are new in SPN. Welcome to SPN. 

Sikhism doesn't make claims that There are Seven Heavens above the Earth and Seven Nether Worlds below. Guru Ji taught that there are millions of heavens, hells, solar systems, galaxies, skies and earths but Muslims believe that there are only seven layers of sky up and down totaling fourteen.

Further reading : Misconceptions - Gurmat and Islam - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


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## pk70 (Mar 4, 2008)

namjap said:


> Khojat Ji,
> 
> I see you are new in SPN. Welcome to SPN.
> 
> ...


 
naamjapji
well said. Satguru Nanak repeatedly made it clear that it is impossible to explain The Supreme Being and His infinite existence(nature); if some say, as per Satguru, they will repent on their sayings( guesses) whatever is said shall be incorrect( Japji Sahib) Every day we see how scientists are estimating and changing positions in in this context. Whatever references are given in Guru Granth Sahib, must not be interpretted incorrectly. Satguru just doesnt guess or depend on it(guessing about His infinity) if done by any. There is nothing contradictory in GGS Ji either. Whatever Satguru Nanak said is well protected and advocated by his other sroops.

Har Bisrat sda khuari -Mehla 5

pk70


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## lotus lion (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for the responses so far, but I do not feel that they go towards answering the question at hand i am afraid.

If the two cannot be merged together, then this, in my mind at least, implies that the teaching of the Guru Granth are far from correct, when infact they are. I simply do not have the understanding yet.

If we have to accept on blind faith, as i see it, then this is not good either as no understanding is really ever really gained so one can never be at peace and does not progress.

As an illustration, When i go to the Gurdwara, i touch the ground before i go in and then touch my Pug and heart. This is an externalisation of the love and respect i have for the Gurdwara, Sangat and Guru Granth Sahib.

On the other hand, a Hindu going into a Mandir would ring a bell.

Who is better? in my mind neither as we are both showing respect in different ways so we are both the same.

"That humble being, who, as Gurmukh, serves the Lord, obtains all peace and pleasure ... He looks alike upon enemy and friend, and wishes well to all" SGGS Ang 1100

If no effort was made to delve into teachings, then i would incorrectly feel that i am better then the Hindu ringing the bell.

That is just one example, but i think everyone can see where i am coming from with the original question.

Lotus


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## Astroboy (Mar 4, 2008)

lotus lion said:


> Thanks for the responses so far, but I do not feel that they go towards answering the question at hand i am afraid.
> 
> If the two cannot be merged together, then this, in my mind at least, implies that the teaching of the Guru Granth are far from correct, when infact they are. I simply do not have the understanding yet.
> 
> ...


 

Here is one reconciliation of all faiths with regards to Naam/Name:-


In the Muslim scriptures, It is variously described as Kalam-i-Ilahi (The Voice of God), Nida-i-Asmani (the Sound from Heaven), Ism-i-Azam (the Great Name), Saut-i-Sarmadi (the Intoxicating Sound), Saut-i-Nasira (the Sound Melodious), Kalam-i-Majid (the Great Commandment) and Kalam-i-Haq (the Voice of Truth) which can be heard inside, and It was taught as Sultan-ul-Azkar or the King of prayers. We have innumerable references to this Sound in the teachings of the Mohammedan fakirs: Rise above thy mental horizon, O brave soul,​
And listen to the call of Music coming from above.​
MAULANA RUMI​Drive away all skepticism from thy mind, 
And listen to the strains of heavenly music, 
And receive within thee the messages of God, 
For these come only by holy communion with the self. 
The Prophet declared that he heard the Voice of God, 
And it fell on his ears as clearly as any other sound, 
But God has sealed thy ears, 
And so ye listen not to His Voice. 
MAULANA RUMI


The whole world is reverberating with Sound, 
To listen to It thou must unseal thine inner ears, 
Then shalt thou hear an Unending Music, 
And that shall lead thee beyond the confines of death. 
SHAH NIAZ 

An unceasing Sound is floating down from the heaven, 
I wonder how ye are engaged in pursuits of no avail. 
HAFIZ 


Lao Tze speaks of It: The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao;​
The name that can be defined is not the unchanging Name.​ 


By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;​
and seeing ye shall see and shall not perceive.​
Matthew 13:14​And thine ears shall hear a Word behind thee saying, this is the Way, 
Walk ye in It, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
Isaiah 30:21


Kabir says: Close down thine eyes, ears and mouth,​
And hear ye the unending melody of the Shabd.​ 

More Later.​


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## pk70 (Mar 4, 2008)

lotus lion said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been looking into for quite some time, but cannot explain it, i was wondering if someone can help me understand this.
> 
> ...


 
Hello Lotus Lion ji

Your question basically is incorrect; there is no reconciliation in this context. Harmony seekers, do not reconcile, they just learn to co exist by showing other faiths a due respect even though they don’t believe in them. Also as you said that all eastern philosophies fall in same category, this approach is taken by some scholars who take a few principles out of the faiths and generalize it to categorize religions. For example, the word Nirvana you used has totally different meaning in context of Budhism, Hinduism and Sikhism. Other qualities like incarnation, karma are also presented in different ways in all eastern philosophies. As per Sikhism, God doesn’t incarnate, Hindism, He does. In Budhism, as it is silent on God, incarnation is there of Budhism’s teachers and others. Regarding karma, in Sikhism karma theory is rejected, page 1243 GGS Ji

ਆਣੀਪਾਪੁਪੁੰਨੁਬੀਚਾਰੁ॥.ਸਲੋਕਮਃ 2॥ਕਥਾਕਹਾਣੀਬੇਦੀਦੇਦੇਲੈਣਾਲੈਲੈਦੇਣਾਨਰਕਿਸੁਰਗਿਅਵਤਾਰ॥ਉਤਮਮਧਿਮਜਾਤੀਂਜਿਨਸੀਭਰਮਿਭਵੈਸੰਸਾਰੁ॥
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਬਾਣੀਤਤੁਵਖਾਣੀਗਿਆਨਧਿਆਨਵਿਚਿਆਈ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਆਖੀਕਰਮਿਧਿਆਈ॥
ਹੁਕਮੁਸਾਜਿਹੁਕਮੈਵਿਚਿਰਖੈਹੁਕਮੈਅੰਦਰਿਵੇਖੈ॥.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਜਾਤੀਸੁਰਤੀਨਾਨਕਅਗਹੁਹਉਮੈਤੁਟੈਤਾਂਕੋਲਿਖੀਐਲੇਖੈ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ1243}
Meaning in assence= Hinduism advocates on karma, doing good deeds and its reward 
will be given in next life; however, Gurbani is all about The creator, it is said by Guru who
 is totally in tuned to Him. It’s not Karma thing but His ordinance that is prevailing)

Now let’s go to religions you put in other category. Take Islam, there are rewards 
after life, if one can believe that, then what is wrong to look into incarnation? 
Christians have hell or heaven ( like Islam have), in there , fire and good seat 
with the Christ is promised, or in Islam, the deads will be brought to judgment etc etc

Since you started with Guru Granth Sahib, it has very appealing idea for every one to live in harmony ( if not reconciliation) with others 

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁਮਹਲਾ੧ਘਰੁ੪॥ਏਕਾਸੁਰਤਿਜੇਤੇਹੈਜੀਅ॥ਸੁਰਤਿਵਿਹੂਣਾਕੋਇਨਕੀਅ॥ਜੇਹੀਸੁਰਤਿਤੇਹਾਤਿਨਰਾਹੁ॥
ਲੇਖਾਇਕੋਆਵਹੁਜਾਹੁ॥੧॥ਕਾਹੇਜੀਅਕਰਹਿਚਤੁਰਾਈ॥ਲੇਵੈਦੇਵੈਢਿਲਨਪਾਈ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
ਤੇਰੇਜੀਅਜੀਆਕਾਤੋਹਿ॥ਕਿਤਕਉਸਾਹਿਬਆਵਹਿਰੋਹਿ॥ਜੇਤੂਸਾਹਿਬਆਵਹਿਰੋਹਿ॥ਤੂਓਨਾਕਾਤੇਰੇਓਹਿ॥੨॥
( 25)
( In essence He blesses every body with a power to do something, no one is without it. 
Why some play intellectual games, He has a power to take that within moment. Why my Master you will be angry with any one, you wont because all living belongs to you GGS Ji 25.) There are numerous references in Gurbani which make it clear that all are performing under His command so don’t criticize them. Look yourself into it.When A Sikh meets people 
of other faiths he sees Him in them, regardless the God they worship, it is called how to understand people of other faiths and respect them as His. In totality Gurbani just advocates 
to be in love with The Creator, living with others with different faiths, will become harmonious automatically .*Sinister* fairly answered your question regarding reconciliation. As a student one should study them (religions), as believer, one has to believe first because mere intellectual wont still ones mind. If karma, incarnation, nirvana are not part of some religions, they have same kinds of stuff with different pictures, which can be questionable as well. One of my American friend said to me “ Singh I like a lot about eastren religions after discussing with you but one thing is hard to swallow.” I asked “ What is that Patrick?”
He said” that incarnation thing” I said” could you believe in resurrection?’
“ yah” he replied. I said if that is easy to swallow, incarnation cannot be hard to do so” He laughed.
Now regarding practicing religions, it is a different story. Bear in mind that you cannot judge
a religion by the way people practice it; for people go stray quite often.

Sorry to contradict you.


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## Sikh80 (Mar 4, 2008)

lotus lion said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been looking into for quite some time, but cannot explain it, i was wondering if someone can help me understand this.
> 
> ...



It is an interesting post. However, there is one point that has triggered your feelings and sentiments and have brought you to ask this question. 

Yes, there are many faiths and religions that were the gifts of god -men and prophets.They were all superior souls and had attained the state of communion with the Almighty, at least it is said this way. 

Each one advised the humanity to reach the supreme goal of self realisation. This may not be explicitly stated in some faiths and nor ,in my opinion, is required to be stated. When one starts believing in a faith one should stick to that faith and start developing concepts else one shall be lost in the meaning of paradise for each faith has an explanation for this. It is on account of this difference in faiths that we have different religions that teach one to attain spirituality and being a superior human being. To this extent it is reasonable to expect the difference and the similarities in the religions and faith. As pk 70 had stated in his post that it is on account of the difference in timings of the prophets that they had to incorporate in their philosphies few things that differ from another.  

No  two faiths will be exactly similar. It is not a science that we shall have newtonian laws same  all over the  world. When we talk of science of spirituality we are guided by the teachings of these prophets and the great souls who taught us as per they saw the things as per their perspectives and hence the difference.

However, there is one GOd .There cannot be a Hindu God or sikhs God. 
In nutshell  when we look at the faith that we have to follow we  try to understand that particular faith only.If my presumption is correct you are a sikh and hence a simple advice that you should stick to it and try to rationalise. The comparison with other faiths is not going to take us further.It is likely to create confusion, that you have in ample, is clear from your post. Pl. do not take it as an offence. It is the part of discovering ourselves.

I am sure you shall have many unanswered questions about sikhi and sikhism. Why not begin with that and let us share that all of us do here.?   Comapring the fine prints of other faiths and beliefs is not a solution at all. It shall have a throtling effect only and shall be a hindrance in the spiritual progress. 

You have also stated about the bells of temple.Yes these are very sweet as well. But by bowing down at Gurudwara and the ringing of bell is not a comparison. Every faith has its practices and rituals. Each one is good as it suits vast majority of people practicising that faith. All religions have simple and straight forward objective of making us a good human being first. Sikhism also begin with this.i.e how should we lead a truthful life. Since I am a sikh I shall be guided by all that Guru sahibs have stated.It is of little use for me to study as why there is no theory of Karma or reincarnation in some other faiths.There would be many things that sikhism may not have as compared to other faith.It is not likely to dilute the concepts of sikhism and _vice versa_ is also true.

Let us stick to one faith and proceed our journey that is always on.
I have stated the way I felt. My posts are usually infested with spelling mistakes. 

Forgive me for this.

Regards and all the luck.


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## Astroboy (Mar 4, 2008)

Sikh80 Ji,

What we see on the outside like church bell or temple bells, they are a reflection of the inner sound current. Similarly, the drums played are also an acho of the real sound which does resemble drums at times. Even the blowing of the conch also mimics the Anhad Naad.


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## Sikh80 (Mar 4, 2008)

namjap said:


> Sikh80 Ji,
> 
> What we see on the outside like church bell or temple bells, they are a reflection of the inner sound current. Similarly, the drums played are also an acho of the real sound which does resemble drums at times. Even the blowing of the conch also mimics the Anhad Naad.



What you have stated should be correct,Sir, and I accept it on account of your superior understanding of the things.


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## lotus lion (Mar 4, 2008)

Hi,

I would like to start by saying that no offence has been taken at all. This is a discussion forum after all, and as long as we post with the principles of Sikhi at the forefront of our mind, and articulate them with love, respect and conviction, then that is all that matters. 
Yes, we will have different takes on the issue, but that comes as part of the parcel.

I would just like to say about myself, that i am a young man that has been born into Sikhi and have been studying it for quite a while now.

I feel that i am relatively well grounded in the Principles of Sikhi and apply them to all aspects of my life as they come naturally and feel right, hence i have gone a little bit deeper.

I would like to state that i have looked into other religions also, namely Buddhism and Islam.

Buddhism, as i have a deep respect for the Buddha, his life, and teachings, and Islam, as it is addressed in the Guru Granth Sahib and says that they are infact the same thing, so this for me is a disipline if you will.

Looking into them has made me understand Sikhi more, and not confused me.

For example, Buddhist Monks shave their hair as this is their form of non-attachment to the world and indicators that they are followers of the Buddha. They do not seek to emulate the Buddha for the sake of it, but do it as they seek the same Goal, Nirvana.

Sikhi, in my mind at least, teaches us to grow the hair for the exact same reason.

Growing the hair is a form of non-attachment to the world and indicates that one is a follower of the Guru. We do this not to simply emulate the Guru, but because we too seek what the Guru taught us, Nirvana.
Growing the hair is accepting the will of God, the design of man, and is worn as that the person is at peace with himself, natural, and traquil.

Also, the Turban is worn to ensure that the person carries himself wth respect and dignity and to instill bold characteristics, good qualities and distinguishes him from a sea of thousands.
The Turban is his crown, His ensignia, making him neat and presentable at all times and is worn as a respectful way to cover the hair.

The above was another example, if you will, of what understanding the Guru Granth Sahib has done for me and the effects of interfacing with other religions.

Thanks,

Lotus


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## Sikh80 (Mar 4, 2008)

~SSA jeo~
It is nice to learn about your progress as a sikh. I am also a sikh but have not reached the level that I start practice. I also have many doubts and am in the process of sorting these at this forum.

Dear friend, when we are learning a language we concentrate on the specifics of the language its semantics and allied things that go into it. We generally do not compare the semantics of the language with the language that we know as this shall create problems. While learning German language, it was told that it was like sanskrit. We referred to the books on sanskrit and found that it was of no avail. There were many differences. Sanskrit did not help me. Likewise, I think spirituality is also a language and we have many dialects of this language. Luckily or otherwise I have been asked to learn the dialect of sikhi and I am learning it without bothering much about other dialects as it is felt that it would only add to confusion. 
Yes, I could complete the basic course of German language and can now make out a bit.

Regards.


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## carolineislands (Mar 5, 2008)

The way I understand it is that the boundaries separating any of us are man made illusions.  Like if you were in a labyrinth, you could't see or understand the person on the other side of a wall and you think your are separated but all you would have do to meet is to walk towards each other.  And when it rains, you both get wet.  All the rest is just something to argue about.  The One God is creator of all the expanse of the universe -- he isn't contained within any set of religious boundaries.  We can no more understand Him than a dog can learn to do algebra.

I also think that, as Guru Nanak said, we have no powers of understanding except when given by the grace of God.  

I also like the metaphor of languages.  Its as though a bunch of people of different language groups were standing in a room arguing over what that small thing was on the table.  They could argue all day and talk about their differences and how they will never agree but it will not phase the pencil.  It won't change it either.  It's still a pencil even though every one in the room calls it a different name.

Everybody in the room is wrong when they focus on the differences, but they're all right when they focus on the pencil.

Sorry if I'm too simplistic.  It's just the way I understand it.


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## lotus lion (Mar 5, 2008)

"Everybody in the room is wrong when they focus on the differences, but they're all right when they focus on the pencil"

Thank you. I Like that metaphor. To further this, the way i see it is that even when everyone focuses on the similarities, The Guru Granth Sahib would point out this this is infact the same pencil that they are all talking about, though they, and myself included, may not be able to understand this.

"I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3|| 
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim. 
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4|| Says Kabeer, this is what I say: 
meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master. ||5||3||" 

SGGS Ang 1136


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## singhbj (Mar 5, 2008)

singhbj said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> ...


 
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ 
गुर बिनु घोरु अंधारु गुरू बिनु समझ न आवै ॥ 
Gur bin gẖor anḏẖār gurū bin samajẖ na āvai. 
Without the Guru, there is utter darkness; without the Guru, understanding does not come. 

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਨ ਸਿਧਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ 
गुर बिनु सुरति न सिधि गुरू बिनु मुकति न पावै ॥ 
Gur bin suraṯ na siḏẖ gurū bin mukaṯ na pāvai. 
Without the Guru, there is no intuitive awareness or success; without the Guru, there is no liberation. 

ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰੁ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ॥ 
गुरु करु सचु बीचारु गुरू करु रे मन मेरे ॥ 
Gur kar sacẖ bīcẖār gurū kar rė man mėrė. 
So make Him your Guru, and contemplate the Truth; make Him your Guru, O my mind. 

ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰੁ ਸਬਦ ਸਪੁੰਨ ਅਘਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਸਭ ਤੇਰੇ ॥ 
गुरु करु सबद सपुंन अघन कटहि सभ तेरे ॥ 
Gur kar sabaḏ sapunn agẖan kateh sabẖ ṯėrė. 
Make Him your Guru, who is embellished and exalted in the Word of the Shabad; all your sins shall be washed away. 

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਯਣਿ ਬਯਣਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਕਵਿ ਨਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਹਿ ॥ 
गुरु नयणि बयणि गुरु गुरु करहु गुरू सति कवि नल्य कहि ॥ 
Gur na&shy;yaṇ ba&shy;yaṇ gur gur karahu gurū saṯ kav nal&shy;y kahi. 
So speaks NALL the poet: with your eyes, make Him your Guru; with the words you speak, make Him your Guru, your True Guru. 

ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਅਉ ਨਹੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਤੇ ਅਕਯਥ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਮਹਿ ॥੪॥੮॥ 
जिनि गुरू न देखिअउ नहु कीअउ ते अकयथ संसार महि ॥४॥८॥ 
Jin gurū na ḏėkẖi&shy;a&shy;o nahu kī&shy;a&shy;o ṯė akyath sansār meh. ||4||8|| 
Those who have not seen the Guru, who have not made Him their Guru, are useless in this world. ||4||8|| 

ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ॥ 
गुरू गुरू गुरु करु मन मेरे ॥ 
Gurū gurū gur kar man mėrė. 
Dwell upon the Guru, the Guru, the Guru, O my mind. 



ਤਾਰਣ ਤਰਣ ਸਮ੍ਰਥੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਬਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਕੇਰੇ ॥ 
तारण तरण सम्रथु कलिजुगि सुनत समाधि सबद जिसु केरे ॥ 
Ŧāraṇ ṯaraṇ samrath kalijug sunaṯ samāḏẖ sabaḏ jis kėrė. 
The All-powerful Guru is the Boat to carry us across in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. Hearing the Word of His Shabad, we are transported into Samaadhi. 

ਫੁਨਿ ਦੁਖਨਿ ਨਾਸੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਯਕੁ ਸੂਰਉ ਜੋ ਧਰਤ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਬਸਤ ਤਿਹ ਨੇਰੇ ॥ 
फुनि दुखनि नासु सुखदायकु सूरउ जो धरत धिआनु बसत तिह नेरे ॥ 
Fun ḏukẖan nās sukẖ&shy;ḏā&shy;yak sūra&shy;o jo ḏẖaraṯ ḏẖi&shy;ān basaṯ ṯih nėrė. 
He is the Spiritual Hero who destroys pain and brings peace. Whoever meditates on Him, dwells near Him. 

ਪੂਰਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਮੁਖੁ ਦੇਖਤ ਅਘ ਜਾਹਿ ਪਰੇਰੇ ॥ 
पूरउ पुरखु रिदै हरि सिमरत मुखु देखत अघ जाहि परेरे ॥ 
Pūra&shy;o purakẖ riḏai har simraṯ mukẖ ḏėkẖaṯ agẖ jāhi parėrė. 
He is the Perfect Primal Being, who meditates in remembrance on the Lord within his heart; seeing His Face, sins run away. 

ਜਉ ਹਰਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਚਾਹਤ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ॥੫॥੯॥ 
जउ हरि बुधि रिधि सिधि चाहत गुरू गुरू गुरु करु मन मेरे ॥५॥९॥ 
Ja&shy;o har buḏẖ riḏẖ siḏẖ cẖāhaṯ gurū gurū gur kar man mėrė. ||5||9|| 
If you long for wisdom, wealth, spiritual perfection and properity, O my mind, dwell upon the Guru, the Guru, the Guru. ||5||9|| 

Source:   Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## pk70 (Mar 5, 2008)

lotus lion said:


> "
> 
> "I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||
> I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.
> ...


Lotus lion ji

I understand why you see some similarities in Islam and Sikhism. The above qt is from Bhagat Kabir ji  and read another qt by him in Guru Granth Sahib page 727
ਤਿਲੰਗ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤਾ ਕੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ    ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਇਫਤਰਾ ਭਾਈ ਦਿਲ ਕਾ ਫਿਕਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਟੁਕੁ ਦਮੁ ਕਰਾਰੀ ਜਉ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਾਜਿਰ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧॥ 
Meaning in essence is  He man! all these eastren and westren religious scriptures have made up things, mind's fear is not clear with them. However, if mind is tuned to HIM for a second,, you can see Him right infront.
Here Guru Granth Sahib doesnt say they are the same.

there is another one where Kabir ji questioning Isla in context of realization of God
ਆਸਾ ॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧{ਪੰਨਾ 477}
In essence Hindu and moslim, from where they have come, source is the same, one talks about nark the other heaven. How He can discriminate with them at the basis of being Muslim or Hindu. all study and discuss but no one got known to Him....

Sikhism is all about Him, there is no claim unlike others that only by being Sikh one can realize Him. This is another beautiful thing you see in GGS Ji.


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## carolineislands (Mar 5, 2008)

Soooo many beautiful things in SGGS. I never know where I'm reading or how far I've gone when I have to stop and go on with the day... I just jump in and it's all so beautiful and profound I feel like a dolphin gliding through warm, tropical waters... Every sentence and phrase has something so profound I can't help but go back and read it over and over again till it overcomes me and sometimes I just hang my head and let the tears flow. 

I believe that the SGGS transends religion. Religions are made up sets of rules defining how a person is supposed to perceive God and how they are supposed to behave in accordance with that perception. Whereas, the Guru came into the world at a time when people were becoming more aware of other cultures and beliefs and said, 'Hey, it's time we stopped and take a look at ourselves and understand that we are all trying to connect with the One God in our own way, and that this One God can't be defined or owned by any of us.' (Caroline paraphrase)  

In that way, Sikhi is not really a "religion." Sikhi and the SGGS is allowing me to participate in any religious service and enjoy the beauty of the cultural elements that are being used to honor and love God. Even though many of them are made up rules, they are often beautiful in that they are various cultural modes of expressing the same thing. 

I went to an inner city, African American church last Sunday and although I didn't agree with the statements of faith (their doctrine), I was very touched and inspired by the service. It was so wonderful to sing and dance as unto the Lord and think about all the many generations of Africans who have reached out to God in colorful, passionate, rhythmic ways so similar to what we were doing at that moment. In my mind, I saw Africa from a bird's eye view as centuries passed and people changed languages and dances and docrines and places and then arrived here at this little church in the middle of inner city USA. And then my mind drew out further to think about all the many peoples of the Earth and all the centuries that humans have tried to connect with God. 

For me, I am looking less and less at the doctrines because those are the made up rules and regulations that separate people and cause confusion. Those are the vehicles by which people attempt to reach God. Like other vehicles, some may get you there faster, others with more reliability and endurance, others might be so inefficient they'll cause you to arrive dusty, tired and late. And some are so different they just crash into each other and cause the riders to fight and argue about who has the right of way.  They're all attempting to arrive at the same place where humans can connect with the same God.  They just haven't realized how silly it is to argue about whose vehicle is better when you could be waving at each other and enjoying the trip.

To me, SGGS transends those boundaries and get's right to God. That's why Sikhi doesn't seem like a religion to me. I think some people use it like a religion and get caught up in the man made parts of it, but that is just human nature. Maybe they're taking the long road. 

I should get to the point which is simple and short after all that rambling  -- I try not to pay any attention to the differences other than to notice how beautiful are our individual expressions of love for God. Even though many don't undertand they are loving the same God. That too, is probably human nature.

Sorry to ramble...


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## svea00 (Mar 5, 2008)

jamesuk said:


> None of your good works count and grace can only be found in Jesus Christ alone.



Excuse me Mr. Jamesuk!
But this is in fact exactly why I abandonned the christian belief. 
I do believe that good deeds count... anytime, to anyone, by any means. I try to serve humanity with ridgeous love and respect. I do believe that there are several equal ways to one god, Jesus might be the only one for you, but please don´t claim that he is the only way for everyone.


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## carolineislands (Mar 5, 2008)

jamesuk said:


> I have been looking at so many of repsonses and posts and can't stop to see that once I used to think the same.


 
And I read your post and think to myself, "Wow -- I used to think just like that!" Now I understand that your perception of God is only one perception and one way of understanding God. There are many others but it is the same God.




> None of your good works count and grace can only be found in Jesus Christ alone.


 
Faith without works is dead.

And grace comes from God, only He decides who receives it and why. Your perception of God is very very small. God is beyond the manmade rules of your religion. The beliefs you call the "truth" were outlined and defined at the council of nicea by MEN. God is beyond the reasoning of those men and beyond the words of any human language. God transends all of human kind's attempts to define him. Like the blind men trying to describe an elephant, we only have one perception of the truth. You describe the trunk of the elephant and another describes the ear, and yet another describes the leg and so on. What we need to do is take off our blinders and see that the God we ALL worship is far more than the little fragments of understanding that each of us has been holding up as the one and only truth. 

What you're telling us here is in effect that there is only one truth and it is the trunk of the elephant. What I am saying is that is only a part and that the whole measure and scope of God is more than any of us can perceive and that to truly love him and transend all the made up rules that people have used to try to define him, you have to first give up allegience to doctrine and put your focus on God alone.

God is bigger than ANY religion -- including yours. We live in an infinite universe. Do you really think that a tiny litte gaggle of pompous catholic fathers at nicea were the only human beings to have ever understood truth throughout the ages of mankind? Everybody else is going to hell, right? Have you ever wondered about how illogical that is? Have you ever looked at the tiny dot on the globe that represents the life of Jesus? Have you ever looked at the size of the earth compared to the Sun? Or the Sun compared to other stars hundred of times it's size? Have you ever thought about the amount of energy it would take to create this universe? I have. One scientist figured it in Kilowatts. If you wrote the number as 1 followed by zeros on ticker tape it would encircle the earth at the equator 13 times. If you wrote the number 1 followed by zeros in books, it would fill a library of over a million volumes. God created this infinite universe with a single thought. And yet you think that your version of Christianity is the only section of humanity God has ever spoken to or revealed himself to? You think that you are the only ones that have the ability to know and love and be part of God? What gives you the right to define what God does and does not do or how he chooses to present himself to others? God can present himself to anybody any way He chooses at any time past or present and just because he has spoken to you in one way does NOT mean he cannot speak to another in another way. If that's the right way for you -- follow it with all your heart. However God reveals himself to each individual is how that individual should follow, and with everything within them give Him thanks and honor.

You discredit and diminish God by restricting your perception of who he is and what He is capable of. And you make him less than He is in your own mind by attempting to impose your limited perception of Him on others.

How dare you presume to declare how God does and does not reveal Himself to others. That is HIS job and HE will do it however HE desires. And that is between God and the individual he reveals himself to. If you would come to understand that, you just might find out that he has revealed MORE of Himself to others than He has to you because you are limiting him and others are not.

Think about it...


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## spnadmin (Mar 5, 2008)

PLEASE MOVE ALL SIMILAR POSTS TO THE INTERFAITH DIALOG SECTION JAMESUK JI.

MOD


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## jamesuk (Mar 5, 2008)

***********************************************
*
You have been asked to post messages from Christian scripture in the Interfaith Dialog section. Please abide by this.

This is your second warning. 

Mod*


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## jamesuk (Mar 5, 2008)

I agree with you, there is deception in church and there are many false prophhets and preachers. It is God who will judge all. Both outside and inside the church. I preach Jesus alone. These are end times and written in Bible. Thats the reason I do not panic when I look at deception in this world. 

Berean


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## carolineislands (Mar 5, 2008)

There are over 35,000 different denominations of protestant Christianity -- that's ONLY the protestants!  Not counting Catholics or Orthodox Christians.  Not counting Judaism or the other leg of the triad, Islam.  Can you imagine how many different sects of Abrahamic beliefs that would be?  And every last ONE of them thinks they have the one and only truth and that everybody else is going to hell.


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## carolineislands (Mar 5, 2008)

I do know the love of Jesus Christ.  I know it well and am every grateful for it.  I also know the love of Guru and understand that God is more than any of our ideas.

How about reading the posts instead of only glossing over to try to establish who 'WON."  Nobody cares who wins or loses.


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## lotus lion (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi,

James UK ji, whilst I did not have the opportunity to read your original posts, it is fair to summarise the fact that you believe Salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ.

I will have to slightly disagree with you there.

According to the logic that has been displayed, Gandhi or Bhai Puran Singh would not be sent to 'heaven' as they have not accepted Jesus Christ.

Mother Theresa, on the other hand would be applauded by the Sikhs even though she may have never professed to be one.

It does beg the question, where would a Christian who has not even done 1/10th of what Gandhi and Bhai Puran Singh had done gone, even though he accepted Jesus Christ as his saviour? 

My Understanding of Christianity is rather general, but I believe that you are mistaken from a philosophical perspective.

Maybe we can start another thread which compares and contrasts the teachings of the Bible and Guru Granth Sahib, Jesus Christ and The Gurus as suggested by the Moderators. And I mean that with no animosity. 

As Christianity is a Missionary Religion, I am of the belief that passages from the Bible have been twisted by the missionaries (which were twisted by the previous one and so on) to suit thier needs at the time to achive their goal, as no complete scripture is present. This was done to get people to convert, which only hardens the missionaries ego and ironically takes them and the people who have been converted further from God.

The Bible is an old scripture with, and as far as I am aware, only a few original surviving pages around.

Translations are also used, not the original Language. This is where the problems start. The deeper underlying meanings that were embedded within the original are forever lost so the complete understanding will never be achieved as one is going on the interpretation provided by a man

It has been fragmented into (thousands?) of denominations by the Priests to convert the masses, so no one really knows who is truly correct. Though they may have a general understanding, more then this is required to obtain enlightenment.

Simply from the above, I would say that the bible is not a complete scripture, as the complete scripture is nowhere to be found, no control of authorship was done about what went into it, and today Christians work off translations. 

As a result, one would not be able to eradicate ones ego as one would be striving for enlightenment on Chinese whispers.

Maybe Jesus Christ spoke of the same truth that The Gurus Spoke of, but, unfortunately for Jesus Christ, his teachings were not encapsulated and recorded in the same way as the Guru Granth Sahib.

With respect to the original question, i now feel that i should not simply compare scriptures side by side as i have, rather niavely, put them on parr with a completly authenticated set of scriptures when we never really knew what the other prophet or Guru was teaching.
Rather i should see the direction in which the scriptures are pointing and then look into the their respective Prophet/Guru.

My best regards,

Lotus


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## pk70 (Mar 6, 2008)

Well said Caroline Island ! First of all, this mind needs to be opened up to His creation. Try to imagine Him, the only one with numerous given names, in your thought. He is beyond enimity. He doesnt take sides as humans do. Satguru Nanak says, if any one just tells about Him, talks about Him, I sacrifice to Him and serve Him without my being. Comparing religions over shadow the beauty we are seeking, the Infinite beautiful without a name, the creator of all. Humans are trying to possess Him as they are possessive by nature.


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## Khojat (Mar 7, 2008)

Your position is incorrect dear Gursikh,

The 10 th Nanak was clear in his Bani when he said that God was the Master of the 14 worlds. These refer to the Heavens, The Earth and The Nether Regions.

The other faiths such as Islam, Christianity and Judaism also declare the same.

The declaration by the 10th Master is wholly consistent with that made by Sat Guru Nanak in the Japji Sahib where the Lord says that that are many Earths beyond this Earth. It is also not inconsistent with Sat Guru Nanak's declaration to the Mullah's that there are thousand of planets and stars and thousand more beyond these. This was to refute the claim of the Mullash that there were only Seven Worlds above and Seven Below. The Muslims interpreted this literally and the Sat Guru proved them wrong.

The 10th Nanak's Bani in clear. However the confusion which arises may be due to misinterpretation just like the Mullah, who were instructed by Sat Guru Nanak.

The 14 worlds refer to the 14 levels of existance, 7 each above and below the Earth. Each level of existance contains thousands of planets, suns, moons, asteroids, etc. This is also consistent with Modern Science.

Both the 1st and the 10th Nanak made true revelations both were one and the same.

The Bani is deep and profound as is its Creator. Contemplate and Ponder over His Word. The Word is not unique to our Faith, God has revealed it to others. Each time God's revelation is made manifest to the world, it is to add more knowledge or to correct wrong interpretations and practices. Do not be so quick to give answers, take your time and understand the Bani, its context, etc. I am no teacher or saint but a simple believerf in the One God whose works are diffused throught the Creation.

Sat Sri Akal.





namjap said:


> Khojat Ji,
> 
> I see you are new in SPN. Welcome to SPN.
> 
> ...


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## Astroboy (Mar 7, 2008)

“The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your
Hand, sing.”​SGGSJ page 6​
“There are planets, solar systems and galaxies. If one speaks of them, there
is no limit, no end. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation. As He
commands, so they exist.”​SGGSJ page 8​
“So many worlds beyond this world-so very many!”​SGGSJ page 3​
“He established the many worlds and skies.”​SGGSJ page 184​
“I have searched and searched, across so many worlds, but without the
Name, there is no peace.”​SGGSJ page 255​
“Among all lights, I behold Your Form; all the worlds are Your Maya.”​SGGSJ page 351​“Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies”​SGGSJ page 276​
“True are Your worlds, True are Your solar Systems.” SGGSJ page 463


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## Astroboy (Mar 7, 2008)

In Sikhism you won't find absurd claims that the Moon split into two and the other half fell at the backyard of Ali's house.


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## pk70 (Mar 7, 2008)

namjap said:


> In Sikhism you won't find absurd claims that the Moon split into two and the other half fell at the backyard of Ali's house.


 

namjap ji

Both of your posts  are representation of logic Satguru advocated through out his life. He faced many strayed minds and got them convinced. If by conveying Satguru bachan we are rediculed, so it be. Truth remains the truth.
Every day I remain grateful to satguru who set us free from all cooked up and superstitious stories.. I sacrifice millions times to him !!!!!

I compliment to you to be right on path of Gurmat. May Waheguru bless you all you are seeking!!!


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## lotus lion (Mar 8, 2008)

I have been thinking about James UK Ji's post for a while and have been attempting to find parellels between Sikhi and Christianity.

If you look at all major religions, one will find that serving, praising and honouring saints is rated highly.

Where followers of religions, unintentionally may i add, go wrong is to believe that only their saints are correct. James UK ji's post is a perfect example, through no fault of his own.

I am of the belief that Saints are not simply one that are born into a particular religion, but that they possess particular qualities And are found in all traditions.

These are listed in the Guru Granth Sahib as follows:

To engage in meditation on the All-pervading Lord through the _Mantra_ of His Name.
To have the Wisdom to look alike upon pleasure and pain (i.e. to become free of duality, the pair of opposites or "likes and dislikes"); to live the pure lifestyle, free of vengeance or generosity.
To be kind to all beings; overpower the five thieves (lust, anger, greed, attachment, and pride. All other evils tendencies in the world are a function of these five. They overtake us like a disease, spreading their filth until they control us).
To take the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise (_Rabb Dee Sifat-Salaah_) as their food; and remain untouched by Maya, like the lotus in the water.
They share the Teachings with friend and enemy alike (i.e., they adopt Teaching in which the friend and the enemy look alike to them); and to love the devotion of God.
Not to listen to slander; renouncing self-conceit, (eradicating false ego-sense or _Aapaa_) to become the dust of all (i.e., to develop humility).
Reference: SIX SIGNS OF A PERSON OF HOLINESS OR PERFECTION

Jesus Christ would easily be a saint, and more, according to the above.

As a result, I can say that i understand to a *degree* what was meant by the fact that only if deeds are done in the name of Jesus Christ is it worth anything.

It is not that the Deeds are done in the name of Jesus Christ, but that the Deeds are done with a Saint or a Holy prophet who possesses particular traits and qualities in mind.

Thanks,

Lotus

PS James Uk Ji, if you are still an active member of this board, i would sincerely wish to find out what you think about it. Good Bad or Ugly.


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## drkhalsa (Jun 19, 2008)

> Faith without works is dead.
> 
> And grace comes from God, only He decides who receives it and why. Your perception of God is very very small. God is beyond the manmade rules of your religion. The beliefs you call the "truth" were outlined and defined at the council of nicea by MEN. God is beyond the reasoning of those men and beyond the words of any human language. God transends all of human kind's attempts to define him. Like the blind men trying to describe an elephant, we only have one perception of the truth. You describe the trunk of the elephant and another describes the ear, and yet another describes the leg and so on. What we need to do is take off our blinders and see that the God we ALL worship is far more than the little fragments of understanding that each of us has been holding up as the one and only truth.
> 
> ...



Dear carolineislands

I feel really fortunate to read the such a post that stems from great understanding without human boundaries .
Your post show clearly how blessed you are with grace  of GOD

I dont know whether Jamesuk ( to whom it was adressed ) had a thought about it but YES reading your Post did light a 10000 watt bulb in my dark Mind

All I can say THANKS  SO MUCH FOR THE POST 

Jatinder Singh


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