# Lava In Guru Granth Sahib



## Prithipal Singh

I have found the site very informative, have always been trying learning {"Sikh" (to learn).}

This is my first posting, and would like to get some clarification on the Lavas. 

They actually describe the unity of the atma (bride) to Paratma (God).

Now days, its being used in the wedding ceremonies (believing) that is
the purpose the Lava was written..

Could someone please enlighten me, 

1) When and who  started *using* them in the wedding ceremonies ? Any historical evidence ?


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## kamaldeep

whts the mean of OUR FOUR LAVA


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## Arvind

I have this document saved in my PC. Not sure who translated this, so am unable to give the due credit to person who did this seva. 

So just pasting the article here:



The Lavan is so beautiful! Guru Ram Das Ji wrote it for his own wedding. I love to read it every day out loud with my wife. Here's my translation of it:​​

*LAVAN: SOOHEE, FOURTH CHANNEL OF LIGHT:*
*1.* In the first round of the marriage ceremony, the Lord gives you His Instructions for performing the daily duties of married life. Instead of performing rituals by routine, embrace the righteous life of Dharma, and do nothing that separates you from God. Meditate on God’s Name. Embrace and practice Simran - the continuous remembrance of your True Identity. Worship and adore the Guru, the Perfect True Guru, and all the errors of your past shall be washed away. By your great destiny, you shall know that bliss which passes all understanding, and the Lord - Har, Har, will become sweet to your mind. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this first round, the marriage ceremony has begun.

*2.* In the second round of the marriage ceremony, the Lord guides you to meet the True Guru - the Primal teacher. Filled with the awe of the Infinite, your ego dissolves away. In awe of the One who is forever pure, sing His Wonderful Praises and see God in all. The Lord - the Supreme Soul, is the Master of the Universe. He fills everything, everywhere. He fills all spaces. Deep within you, and outside as well, there is only One God. God’s humble servants meet together and sing the songs of joy and ecstasy. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this second round, the music of the spheres resounds.

*3.* In the third round of the marriage ceremony your heart is filled with Divine Love. By my great destiny I have met the humble Saints who love the Lord and I have found God. I have found the pure Lord and I sing His Wonderful Praises. I speak the Word of the Lord’s Bani. By great destiny I have found the humble Saints and I speak the silent language of the Infinite. The Lord’s Name - Har, Har, Har, vibrates and resounds within my heart. Meditating on God, I have realized the great destiny inscribed upon my forehead. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this third round, the heart is full with Divine Love of the One God.

*4.* In the fourth round of the marriage ceremony I have found God and my mind is filled with peace. Living as a Gurmukh, I have met Him with simple ease. My mind and body are full of sweet delight. I am pleasing to God - and night and day I lovingly focus my awareness on the One. I have merged with my Lord and Master and all my desires are fulfilled. The Lord’s Name resounds and reverberates within me and all around me. The One God, my Lord and Master, merges with His Divine Bride and her heart blossoms with His Holy Naam. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this fourth round, we have become One with the Eternal Lord.

Wahe Guru!​


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## Archived_Member16

Anand Karaj (Punjabi: ਅਨੰਦ ਕਾਰਜ, _anand kāraj_) is the name of the Sikh Marriage ceremony, meaning "Blissful Union" or "Joyful Union," which was introduced by Guru Amar Das Ji. The four Lavan (marriage hymns which take place during the marriage ceremony) were composed by his successor, Guru Ram Das Ji. It was originally legalised in India through the passage of the Anand Marriage Act 1909 but is now governed by the Sikh Reht Maryada (Sikh code of conduct and conventions)


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## kaur-1

I recognise the commet "The Lavan is so beautiful! Guru Ram Das Ji wrote it for his own wedding. I love to read it every day out loud with my wife. Here's my translation of it:"

Its MrSikhNet.com !!! Gurmukstuk Singh Khalsa of New Mexico



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> I have this document saved in my PC. Not sure who translated this, so am unable to give the due credit to person who did this seva.
> 
> So just pasting the article here:
> 
> 
> 
> The Lavan is so beautiful! Guru Ram Das Ji wrote it for his own wedding. I love to read it every day out loud with my wife. Here's my translation of it:​
> 
> 
> *LAVAN: SOOHEE, FOURTH CHANNEL OF LIGHT:*
> *1.* In the first round of the marriage ceremony, the Lord gives you His Instructions for performing the daily duties of married life. Instead of performing rituals by routine, embrace the righteous life of Dharma, and do nothing that separates you from God. Meditate on God’s Name. Embrace and practice Simran - the continuous remembrance of your True Identity. Worship and adore the Guru, the Perfect True Guru, and all the errors of your past shall be washed away. By your great destiny, you shall know that bliss which passes all understanding, and the Lord - Har, Har, will become sweet to your mind. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this first round, the marriage ceremony has begun.
> 
> *2.* In the second round of the marriage ceremony, the Lord guides you to meet the True Guru - the Primal teacher. Filled with the awe of the Infinite, your ego dissolves away. In awe of the One who is forever pure, sing His Wonderful Praises and see God in all. The Lord - the Supreme Soul, is the Master of the Universe. He fills everything, everywhere. He fills all spaces. Deep within you, and outside as well, there is only One God. God’s humble servants meet together and sing the songs of joy and ecstasy. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this second round, the music of the spheres resounds.
> 
> *3.* In the third round of the marriage ceremony your heart is filled with Divine Love. By my great destiny I have met the humble Saints who love the Lord and I have found God. I have found the pure Lord and I sing His Wonderful Praises. I speak the Word of the Lord’s Bani. By great destiny I have found the humble Saints and I speak the silent language of the Infinite. The Lord’s Name - Har, Har, Har, vibrates and resounds within my heart. Meditating on God, I have realized the great destiny inscribed upon my forehead. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this third round, the heart is full with Divine Love of the One God.
> 
> *4.* In the fourth round of the marriage ceremony I have found God and my mind is filled with peace. Living as a Gurmukh, I have met Him with simple ease. My mind and body are full of sweet delight. I am pleasing to God - and night and day I lovingly focus my awareness on the One. I have merged with my Lord and Master and all my desires are fulfilled. The Lord’s Name resounds and reverberates within me and all around me. The One God, my Lord and Master, merges with His Divine Bride and her heart blossoms with His Holy Naam. Servant Nanak proclaims that in this fourth round, we have become One with the Eternal Lord.
> 
> Wahe Guru!​


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## Arvind

kaur-1 said:
			
		

> I recognise the commet "The Lavan is so beautiful! Guru Ram Das Ji wrote it for his own wedding. I love to read it every day out loud with my wife. Here's my translation of it:"
> 
> Its MrSikhNet.com !!! Gurmukstuk Singh Khalsa of New Mexico


Gurmustuk Singh is the man, so full of sewa. I love reading mrsikhnet.com... actually more than that looking at the beautiful pictures he has posted there. Simply takes one to a different world full of joy.

Thanks kaur ji.


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## Prithipal Singh

SSA,

My questions were:
The Lava's actually describe the unity of the atma (bride) to Paratma (God).
Merge with God... 
One person mentioned that this was written by Guru Amar das ji, and another mentioned last lava was written by Guru Ram das ji.

We are interpreting the Lava as (1st round to get married ??) I do not see anywhere written "marriage between husband & wife ?"
If you read all the 4 Lavas. with spiritual context in mind, it makes more sense going in to the four steps in spiritual attainment, then
4 rounds of physically unity. In the 4th round, you do become one with God.!!!!!!!! 
Where it is interpreted "round of marriage ceremony", read the actual gurmakhi text. I do not see anand karaj, or ano other marriage ceremony word used.
if any one can shed more light on this, would be obliged.

*Can anyone give a reference where its written that this was written for Guru Amardas ji for his Marriage ???*

Yes, the Lava's were adopted by Singh sabha in the Sikh marriages from the Nirankaris, and Namdharis started in late 1860-1880.
Please check..
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/3732-history-of-anand-karaj.html

I still believe this was NOT for marriage purposes meant by our guru's..
(My personal humble opinion)

Prithipal


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## kds1980

ANAND KARAJ | The Sikh Encyclopedia

ANAND KARAJ

ANAND KARAJ: Aanand Kaaraj is the SIKH marriage ceremony. The exact date of its origin is not known but references can be found that the marriage of the children of GURU Sahib had been performed by way of this ceremony. Guru Sahib had made it obligatory for a Sikh not to marry except through Aanand Kaaraj ceremony. In Sikh marriage system, the couple circumambulates Guru GRANTH Sahib four times in clockwise direction while hymns from Guru Granth Sahib (at pp. 77374) are read and the ceremony is complete after an Ardaas (the Sikh prayer). Some SIKHS don't perform nuptial rounds around Guru Granth Sahib because they believe that this is copy of the Sapatpadi, the Hindu marriage ceremony. They profess that simple recitation of four hymns from Guru Granth Sahib followed by an Ardaas completes the ceremony. According to the Aanand marriage ceremony, both the partners should be Sikh or at least they should declare that they accept SIKHISM as their religion and promise to have initiation as early as possible. An Act "Aanand Marriage Act" was passed, on October 22, 1909. It does not mean that the Sikh marriage ceremony has its origin from this date. Bhai Daya SINGH, in his Rahitnama (code of conduct), has mentioned the Sikh wedding rites. The real Nirankaris, Baba Dayal and Baba Darbara Singh, resurrected these ceremonies in the early years of the nineteenth century.


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## The King

Hi, am new here, and thought I'd post re this subject.

Have to agree with Prithipal Singh. I was always under the impression, and am sure I have read this somewhere, that the 4 lava were NOT used as a marriage ceremony until Baba Dayal and Baba Darbara Singh introduced it.

I have seen no readings, and I am the first to admit I am not fully read up on these facts, to suggest it was ever used by the Gurus or their own children.

My reading suggest that up to Baba Dayal and Baba Darbara Singh's intervention Sikhs would still us the Hindu ceremony, and that was the specific reason why they sought to introduce a specific 'Sikh' way to get married.

Just my opinion, humble apologies if I've got this wrong.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

SAT SRI AKAAL JI
I m new here. As i was searching the internet for laavan i found this page and read some comments. The laavan were first said by Guru Nanak dev ji on his marriage. I have read this in the janam saakhi which was written at the time of second guru Sri guru Angad dev ji. The Janam sakhi was quoted by bhai Bala.


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## findingmyway

Respected Nirmaljot Baidwan ji,
What you say is not possible as the laavan were written by Guru Ram Das ji (soohi mehla 4). You may also be interested in this video about the Bala Janamsakhi;
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/33526-authenticity-of-balae-wali-janam-sakhi.html


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

@findingmyway
brother i have noted down around about 30 points which they mentioned, and i will do research on them. I m not going to accept that just coz they said it. 

One thing that i will object right here is that they mentioned the use of tarkhaan in the janam sakhi but my friend i have the janam sakhi and that too quite an older version , the word "baadhi" is used a lots of time. I'll be back with more.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

One Marriage that took place according to the Anand Karaj ( NOT Hndu Panditology system) was BHAI KAMLIAH and Bibi MATHEH MURARI during the time of Emperor Akbar and Guru Amardass Ji. A Complaint was lodged with the Mughal Court that such marriages hsould eb banned becasue they are NOT PURE. Guru Amardass Ji dispatched Bhai Jetha Ji who was his son-in law to Delhi to explain to the Emperor ref to this matter.
The Emperor Akbar on listening to Bhai jetha Ji's explanation that those who were following the Panth of GURU NANAK were NOT HINDUS and thus entitled to their own ways. The Emperor agreed and threw the complaint out. Bhai jetha Ji later became GURU RAMDASS JI.

The Crown Prince of NABHA State Prince RIPUDAMAN SINGH who was  a Member of the Viceroy Council in 1907. After a consultation with sikh scholars and academicians and granthis Sikh Organsiations  etc he decided to bring a BILL in the VC on 30th Oct 1908. This issue rasied a storm...his own father..Maharja Hira Singh of Nabha oppsoed his son's proposal. Hundreds of Sikh socieites and granthis etc passed resolutions opposing this Anand Karaj Bill. NO Sikh of any stature dared to voice his support to the Crown Prince Ripudaman Singh who was a Progressive Sikh. The Maharja Nabha Hira Singh had the funds of Nabha State and he caused hundreds of pamphlets and tracts to be published not only in Punjabi but English and in many Indian languages. This Protest was being instigated by the Pandits who stood to lose so many "clients" iF sikhs began to discard the Hindu marriage and start doing the Anand Karaj. The British Govt published the BILL on the Sikh Anand Karaj in their Official Gazette and all over India to gauge its support among the sikh population. Thus  a verbal war broke out among Sikhs dividing them into two Groups ( exactly what is happening today !!..so we have actually been RUNNING ON THE SPOT for the past 100 years....we cannot AGREE on anything..be it DG issue, Raagmala, meat-veg issue, banis 5 or 7, calendar issue, gurpurabs issues, sant issues, dera issues, badal/congress issues..whatever ??) ANYWAY the British were disappointed by the Protests and placed the Anand Marriage Bill in the Freezer for a few years.
Suddenly a major Sikh Leader Sir Sunder Singh majhithiah came out in SUPPORT of the now FROZEN Bill. He was  a Member of the VC and he bagn a new campaign to get it passed.This may have been due to the way another SIKH millionaire Dyal Singh majhithiah ( Owner of the TRIBUNE GROUP of Newspapers that were founded with SIKH money but are controlled by Hindu Arya Samajists and used as for anti-sikh issues) Dyal Sighs case was fought until the Privy Council London.
Majhithia was Secretray of the CKD Chief Khalsa Diwan and although very close to Maharaja Hira Singh nabha, he came out in suppoet of his son Ripudaman singh nabha and the Anand Marriage Act. The CKD went from village to village popularising the Bill and garnering Sikh population support for the Bill.This was the first time the Ordinary SIKH was being told what was involved.
Then the Bill got a real big boost when SANT DARBARA SINGH NIRANKAREE founder of the NIRANKAREES boosted his cmapaign for the Anand Karaj vs the Hindu vedic marriage. ( these are the real and ORIGINAL NIRANKAREES as opposed to the  Fake "nirankarees" who HIJACKED the Name of this Movment (and are called NARAKDHAREES due to their actions in 1978) who caused the 1978 vasakhi massacre in Amrtisar leading to the Ops Bluestar..and beyond). In fact Baba darbara Singh Nirankaree had his own anand karaj performed according to Anand karaj more than 20 years prior..in 1883...The Nirankaree Mission had been in the forefront of the Anand Marriage Ceremony for SIKHS in the Rawalpindi areas of Punjab.
The Entire Campaign is available in the British East India Archives and is about 5 huge Volumes. Letters, pamphlets, speeches, resolutions, newspaper articles, letters to the Editors, British secret reports etc..The Viceroy now despatched letters to all District Commissioners to gauge public opinion and write back to him. Most of the DCs gauged the right opinions and thus the Delhi Govt was convinced that the Anand Marriage was popular and accepted byt he SIKHS. However the Hindus speeded up their campaign. Pandits all over wnet about "advising" that all marriages under the AM were invalid, the children would be haramis (illegetimate) and whats more GOD would be angry as well if the Vedas were not followed. Due to the widespread influence of the local pandit..many rural sikhs were in a doubt and thus rather than offend the Pandit they opted for the vedic rather than stick their necks out for the AM.
Anyway the British Govt based on its feedback form DCs and officers all over came to the concluison that majority fo the SIKHS were in FAVOUR of the Ananad Marriage Bill and the oppsoing sikhs were  a minority. Thus the Anand Marriage Act bill was tabled in the Viceroys Council and passed on 22 oct 1909 and made LAW all over BRITISH INDIA which at that time included Burma, Bangladesh, Pakistan etc. Moreover SIKHS by then had also migrated to malaya, Canada, Usa, Europe, HongKong etc etc.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

@gyani jarnail singh-
I was talking about Bala janam sakhi authenticity and the video link which was posted by findingmyway. There were many points made in the discussion in the video about authenticity of Bala janam sakhi. I m doing research on that but if u have any knowledge about that matter then please share. i hope u have seen the video.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sikhs have always had a tendency to take words at the superficial level...and they apply this level of understanding to the SGGS Gurbani as well.
Hence the use of the Laavan - (Suhi Mhalla 4 means GURU RAMDASS JI is the Author and thus no question of Guru nanak ji using them )...as for "worldy marriage ceremony". Then various shabds were chosen based on superficial meanings...Janj Kurrmai Iayah..Hum Ghar Sajaan ayeh..viah hoah mereh babala..etc etc and ADDEd to the Anand karaj Ceremony. The GURBANI is UNIVERSAL..is a LOT DEEPER in Spiritual Meanings thna the mere superficial look at the "Janjis" streaming in behind the Groom as Hum Ghar Sajaan ayeh..or the Brides father as Viah hoa mere Babla etc.
GURU JI wrote many Shabads for OUR SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE..even for certain ceremonies..like Ghorreean, alahanniah..marriage ceremony etc. This was to give us soemthing UNIQUELY SIKH and also a SPIRITUAL LESSON at the same time.
Hence the Laavan are SPIRITUAL as well as can be used at a ceremony.
At least SIKHS can UNDERSTAND (even if very superficially) what the ragis are singing...in the Laavan and the Shabads attached to the ceremony..the HINDUS cant get a word in becasue the Pandit MUTTERS soem ancient Sanskrit Mantras which make no head or tail to the ordinary Hindu Guests/bride and groom etc. At a Hindu Marriage I attended recently, the Groom's daddy hapened to be a BRAHMIN but not practising Panditology becasue he was a buisness tycoon. On several ocassion s he STOPPED the Pandit and told him..Arey Pandit ji..aap GALAT MANTAR parrh rahen hain..OH Pandit you are reading the WRONG MANTRA....and the Pandit sheepishly admitted each time..I am NEW !! BUT none of the others noticed anything...presumably becasue they KNEW NOTHING.
WE differ on 3 major grounds..The SGGS is not a "fire devta"..its our Living GURU.
The ragis are not muttering mantras in a dead long forgotten language..the gurbani is contemporary and avilable to all and sundry who wnat to know and is simple language understood by all and thirdly the ceremony is SPIRITUALLY significant as its one man one wife for ever. No divorce.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> @gyani jarnail singh-
> I was talking about Bala janam sakhi authenticity and the video link which was posted by findingmyway. There were many points made in the discussion in the video about authenticity of Bala janam sakhi. I m doing research on that but if u have any knowledge about that matter then please share. i hope u have seen the video.



Nirmaljot Ji,
The Bhai bala janamsakhi has been discredited based on lots of points. Its language is similar to Gurbilas Patshi Chhevin a book ostensibly biographical of Guru hargobind Ji and the later book called Bachittra natak Granth (DG) that one supposedly autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. No such person called Bhai bala is mentioned in Sikh History.
Please carry on your research. Will be pleasing to read. My Best wishes
Js

Note: I have a copy of the Punjab Uni treatise on this Janamsakhi edited by Surinder Singh Kohli/Jagjit Singh in PUNJABI. Its a very good source of info on this and other "janamsakhis". If you like I can provide some materials form it...later.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

@gyani ji
u said the first marriage according to Anand karaj took place at the time of Guru Amardas ji. Guru ramdas ji did not hav gurtagaddi at that time , as u said that lavaan were written by guru ramdass ji then how come at the time of guru amardas ji a marriage according to Anand karaj could take place???


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

What i mean to say is that just because at the time of anand karaj paathis recite the laavan written by guru ramdass ji does not imply that other gurus could not write the laavan. Yeah, may be the laavan written by other gurus were not included in SGGS by guru Arjun Dev ji.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

What I quoted is from a speech by Sir Sunder Singh majhithiah in the Viceroys Council in 1909 in which he mentioned the ANAND KARAJ of Bhai kamaliah which was the subject of an offical complaint to Emperor Akbar by the Hindus. Guru Amardass ji sent Bhai jetha Ji (later Guru ramdass ji) as the best person to explain things to the Emperor. The Emperor Akbar had visited Guru Amardass jis Darbar at Goindwal also.

2. Its a FACT that the Present Laavan on page 773 are writen by GURU RAMDASS JI becasue it says so. Suhi mahalla 4th is Written by Guru Arjun Ji. So we have to go by the evidence of SGGS. BUT whether the Lavan as in the SGGS were in fcat used during the marriages of the Gurus/their families is not clear. What is Clear si that GURU NANAK JI alos WOULNT HAVE married according to the VEDIC Tradition..when we have irrefutable evidence that Guru Ji REFUSED POINT BLANK to wear the Janeau at such a YOUNG AGE...there is no possibility of Guru Ji agreeing to a FIRE CEREMONY !! SO what ceremony actually took palce..is couched in ambiguity..we dont know for sure.

3. The Present Day ANAND KARAJ with Lavaan of Suhi mah 4 begins with the Baba Dyal Singh / Baba Darbara Singh nirankaris Mission in 1870's. There is NO EARLIER EVIDENCE.

4. Its also a Fact that SIKHISM..from Day ONE has been JUST a _*drop*_ of *FRESH WATER* inside the SALTY OCEAN of HINDUISM !! and is still in the same situation TODAY. Worse..our History, our holy books, our Holy Gurdwaras etc etc were all under the control of NON-SIKHS..while Sikh Heads were being sold at RS 80 a piece...these non-sikhs got the opportunity to grab control of all sikh history and REWRITE it as they pleased. Its ONLY lately that the DROP of Fresh water is trying to get itself recognised as different...and the Ocean is determined to drown it...as has ben for the past 500 years ...since the DAY Guru nanak Ji denied the *JENEAU* !! Since He denied the janeau..He must have also DENIED the rest of the VEDIC ceremonies...this is evidence by DEDUCTION.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

There are over 100 "shabds/banis" in Bhai Bala Janamsakhi that are NOT INCLUDED IN the SGGS. These are claimed to be Guru nanak kirt and use the same name NANAK...as the Gurbani in SGGS. This is an Example of KACHI BANI...Satgur Bina hor kach bani..kehndeh kacheh, sundeh kacheh, kacheh aakh vikhannee: that Guru Amardass ji alludes to in ANAND SAHIB. Such FAKE BANI was being produced to CHALLENGE Guru nanak Jis chosen successors (Gurgadee holders like Guur Angad Ji, Guru Amardass Ji, Guru ramdass Ji, Guru Arjun ji) by the ILLEGETIMATE CLAIMANTS..or PRETENDERS ott he Gurgadee - the BLOOD sons and relatives of the GURUS that were REJECTED.

BTW my good friend Bhai baggrriahn Ji in Chandigarh has an ORIGINAL hand written copy of the Bala Janasakhi. On my next viist I intend to go have a look at it...as I didnt have time this year.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

Respected gyani ji
It is not necessary that Guru ajun dev ji would include all the bani in SGGS or is it?? I dont think there's hundred percent surity of bhai bala's janam sakhi to be fake. I have the janam sakhi, should i quote the laavan written in the janam sakhi, although the janam sakhi is not in very good condition as its very old. one of the contradictions about this janam sakhi is that it contains many shabads mentioned to be written by guru nanak dev ji where as in SGGS these are mentioned to be written by other gurus. 

Now what i think is that the other gurus that followed sri guru nanak dev ji were also the same. as we say k ikko he jot da prakash c. Oh sade lai beshak alag alag roop c par oh ik he jot c!!


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## spnadmin

Forwarded by SPN mentor Gyani Jarnail Singh ji Arshi


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Respected gyani ji
> *It is not necessary that Guru ajun dev ji would include all the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or is it?*? I dont think there's hundred percent surity of bhai bala's janam sakhi to be fake. I have the janam sakhi, should i quote the laavan written in the janam sakhi, although the janam sakhi is not in very good condition as its very old. one of the contradictions about this janam sakhi is that it contains many shabads mentioned to be written by guru nanak dev ji where as in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji these are mentioned to be written by other gurus.
> 
> Now what i think is that the other gurus that followed sri guru nanak dev ji were also the same. as we say k ikko he jot da prakash c. Oh sade lai beshak alag alag roop c par oh ik he jot c!!



Veer Ji,
IT IS NECESSARY THAT WE NOW PLACE ALL (100%) of OUR  TRUST/FAITH/SHARDHA in the SGGS as prepared by GURU ARJUN JI and RE-PREPARED as Final Rescencion by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI and bestowed upon the GURGADEE of Guru nanak Ji sahib in 1708. It is a Blasphemy to even consider one sentence out of place as far as the SGGS is concerned. This is LAW now in PUNJAB under recently passed amendments - a FIR can be registered and Punjab Police will take action on such finger pointers.
WHATEVER "bani/gurbani/whatever" LEFT OUTSIDE the SGGS is NOT GURU-KIRT...not even those banis now in our Nitnem, supposedly penned by Guru Gobind Singh ji but since these are NOT INSIDE THE SGGS..they are NOT OUR GURU. ONLY SGGS is our One and SOLE GURU. BEYOND QUESTIONING...BEYOND DOUBTS. PERIOD.
This is NOT my perosnal position..its the position of the Guru Khalsa Panth.
And this is also the Terms of service of SPN. Violation of those terms is serious.

2. Lots of Bhagat kabir jis bani is available OUTSIDE of SGGS..we dont accord that portion any "VALUE" (as in GURBANI)
3. Lots of Bhagat ravidass jis bani is also OUTSIDE SGGS...recently some people made a GRANTH out of that. WE SIKHS place no "value" on that either. We BOW to only SGGS.

As I said I have access to an ORIGINAL hand written Mnauscript of the Bala Janam sakhi ( at present in Punjab and out of my contact NOW. but avilable for research when i do viist India )..BUT I do have in my Library a TREATISE of most of the janamsakhi published by PU. It also lists almost 100 shabads supposedly by Guru nanak ji but NOT included in SGGS. A SIKH will NOT consider those as "Gurbani" - under any circumstances. GURU ARJUN JI had good reasons to EXCLUDE them.

Veer Ji..we have lots of Non-sikhs, non-punjabis on this Forum..so if we confine Punjabi words to a MINIMUM that helps. Sure we cna understand the lingo..but for them its a major difficulty. Please keep as much ENGLISH as possible.

Regards
jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Veer Ji,
On the question of a  "shabad" that is chosen by Guru Arjun Ji for inlcuison in the SGGS and this fact is reaffirmed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji....then THAT Particular shabad IS the AUTHENTIC VERSION - Confirmed by TWO GURU SAHIBS - in WRITING.

IF a similar shabad / exact same shabad is found OUTSIDE the SGGS...thne this is what we do:

1. The SHABAD in the SGGS is GURBANI and our GURU.
2. The exact same shabad that is outside the SGGS but found elsewhere..is a  * COPY*.(UTARA)
3. A "similar" shabad found OUTSIDE SGGS is  a *FAULTY COPY/PLAGIRISATION/FAKE*.
    Could be an attempt to confuse sikhs...the KACHI BANI.
4. ANY writing found OUTSIDE the SGGS carrying the NANAK CHHAAP is FAKE.( under 
    point 3 above )..at best 
    its a COPY - UTARA. The GURU-GURBANI is always ONLY the SGGS.
5. The SGGS was prepared under direct superviison of GURU SAHIB JI. All outisde books, 
    historical accounts, books, etc etc...not prepared under that CATEGORY..so any 
    banis/shabads included should be taken under advisement !! For example even 
    TODAY  there are thousands of books...even WEB SITES ( SPN included)..which may 
    have GURBANI shabads included....these books web sites etc CANNOT be considered 
*AUTHENTIC/GURBANI/GURU* as on the same level as SGGS.!!! Simply becasue 
    these are all prepared by ordinary humans...while the SGGS was prepared by the 
* GURU  *SAHIBS.  *As an EXAMPLE*: I as a writer of a Book on "Katha of Japji Sahib"  
    could MISS out an 
    ENTIRE PAUREE of Japji Sahib...or Leave out half of it (by mistake)..can the Japji 
    Sahib in My book be considered as authentic as the *Japji Sahib* found in the SGGS ?? 
    OR by *mistake* I may inlcude a few chhands form *JAAP SAHIB*...and then can people 
    about 500 years down the line say..OH Jarnail Singh's Katha on japji Sahib has a 
    different Japji Sahib than the one in SGGS ???? That is what you are saying about 
    Bhai bala's Janamsakhi and its shabdas. On the KASWATTEE..touchstone of 
    SGGS..the shabads in Janamsakhi FAIL the LITMUS TEST.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan

@ gyani jarnail singh

My friend we dont have baani of bhai Gurdas in SGGS , is that kachi baani????


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## findingmyway

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Respected gyani ji
> It is not necessary that Guru ajun dev ji would include all the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or is it?? I dont think there's hundred percent surity of bhai bala's janam sakhi to be fake. I have the janam sakhi, should i quote the laavan written in the janam sakhi, although the janam sakhi is not in very good condition as its very old. one of the contradictions about this janam sakhi is that it contains many shabads mentioned to be written by guru nanak dev ji where as in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji these are mentioned to be written by other gurus.
> 
> Now what i think is that the other gurus that followed sri guru nanak dev ji were also the same. as we say k ikko he jot da prakash c. Oh sade lai beshak alag alag roop c par oh ik he jot c!!



Nirmaljot ji,
Forgive me but I don't fully understand what you are saying here?

Are you saying that Gurbani can be doubted or second guessed but other texts such as janamsakhis must not be doubted?

When the Guru's are the same jyot, does it make sense that one Guru would then overwrite shabads written by another? What is the point of having the numbering lock in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji if the Guru's were going to change the shabads for their own?

Does it make more sense to verify texts against Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or the other way round? I would say the former as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only Guru and everything else comes second.

Jasleen Kaur.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> @ gyani jarnail singh
> 
> My friend we dont have baani of bhai Gurdas in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , is that kachi baani????



Nirmaljyot jI,

IS the SGGS our One and ONLY GURU ? or is Bhai Gurdass Ji also "GURU" ?
GURBANI can only be what the GURU says/speaks...and the SGGS does not speak/say the Bhai Gurdass Jis Vaars/Kabits/Swaiyahs as well as lots of other compositions.

  2. The SRM does however give us the privilege and HONOUR to perform Kirtan of Bhai Gurdass Jis vaars/kabits/Swaiyahs in the presence of SGGS. This proviso also applies to Bhai Nand Lal Goya Jis compositions. Other "compositions" may also be "presented" on Gurdwara Stages - dhadee vaars, kavitas, poems, lekhs, Academic Papers etc etc fort eh ebnefit of the Sangat.

3. Kachi Bani as a description is now widely applied to the "TWO LINER JINGLES type of TV advertisments that various so called SANT/BABAS sing during their "Religious Diwans". These are written by human beings. Example would be...."Ucha Dar babeh nanak Da...uchah dar ababeh nanak da.....AA giaya baba Vaid Rogian da....Haath jorr ke darshan kardeh ne..etc etc types sung with groups of CHAMTA BANGING youths behind the Waddeh baba Ji on stage with a Vaja....and after each PAUSE..the Waddeh baba Ji will stop and TELL/RELATE TALL TALES/FAIRY TALES of the even BIGGER "WADDEH BABA JI" that went before his time...(GURU NANAK JI SAHIB/and the Nine Gurus after Him ARE NOT what is meant by Waddeh Baba Ji....that "respectful" term is for the DERA HEADS that have died..like Ishar singh attar singh wariam singh etc etc...BABA NANAK is kept OUT of such kirtna darbars. Such Babas almost NEVER singh GURBANI SHABADS form SGGS or will just sing a line or two and leave the shabad UNFINISHED and proceed to their waddeh babajis stories...and Jingles. IF you listen carefully the DEVI BHAJANS sung sound almost the same as these two liner jingles. IN the Hindu situation thats perfectly all right becasue they DONT HAVE GURBANI to sing..so they rely on man made kavitas and songs..BUT when SIKHS disregard the THOUSANDS of Shabads in SGGS..and give preference to such bhajan types of kavitas..then its sad. This types of songs are much easier to Memorise !! Hnece the reaosn why these Half Baked babas prefer them..no effort needed compared to SHUDH RAAG GURBANI.


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