# Who Is Closest To God?



## divine outpouring (Mar 11, 2010)

hi everyone, i have a question which i hope you'll find interesting. before i pose it, i would like to say a couple of things. 

i have been on these forums before under different names. i was on here once as 'a muslim' and later as something else (can't remember the name i used then). as 'a muslim' i felt a great warmth from the spn community and a real effort to answer my queries for the sake of greater understanding. as the other name i was accused of being someone else (as i used someone elses computer, who also happened to be a member) who took an approach to questioning which the community didn't respond to as well. i was kicked off the forums even though i personally did not cause offence, and now i am back as i have more questions which i hope you will answer in the same spirit as you answered 'a muslim'. i wanted to clear that up in case the moderators thought i was an ill doer whose only purpose was to come here and cause chaos. 

i really wish we can put all of that behind us as it affected my path to understanding sikhism. True, i am a muslim, and true, i haven't seen anything in sikhism that would make me want to convert; but true, if i perceived it as the best way to God i would convert, and true, even if i didn't, i have grown up alongside sikhs and feel a strong desire to learn their religion for the sake of increasing my understanding of that which they hold most dear. understandably, my sikh friends do not have amongst them the knowledge of religion which this community affords, so i consider it beneficial for me to be here.

with that cleared, i would like to ask:

Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most, or the one who God has favoured the most, or the one who best followed God's commands, or the one who was in closest union with God?

and

what criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question? 

the same question applies if sikhs believe more than one person to be closest to God.

as a side note, i think this forum is really well structured. whoever made it has done it well! apologies if my questions could have been in a more appropriate section

looking forward to reading your replies!
thanks :happy:


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 11, 2010)

divine outpouring,

Guru Fateh.

First of all, let me thank you for turning towards honesty  as a Muslim unlike before. Truthful living is the cornerstone of Sikhi. By living in a truthful manner one can seek the truth.

You write:



> Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most, or the one who  God has favoured the most, or the one who best followed God's commands,  or the one who was in closest union with God?


Pardon my ignorance but your question makes God or whatever you may call him/her/it a person with human traits. Please elaborate what God is for you. Secondly according to your question, it seems that the God you serve has some favourite people and others not so favourite.  Does your God take sides and is biased?




> what criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned  question?
> 
> the same question applies if sikhs believe more than one person to be  closest to God.


My earlier questions need to be answered by you so we can continue this interesting interaction.

Thanks and hope for the clarifications.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Mar 12, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> i have been on these forums before under different names. i was on here once as 'a muslim' and later as something else (can't remember the name i used then). as 'a muslim' i felt a great warmth from the spn community and a real effort to answer my queries for the sake of greater understanding. as the other name i was accused of being someone else (as i used someone elses computer, who also happened to be a member) who took an approach to questioning which the community didn't respond to as well. i was kicked off the forums even though i personally did not cause offence, and now i am back as i have more questions which i hope you will answer in the same spirit as you answered 'a muslim'. i wanted to clear that up in case the moderators thought i was an ill doer whose only purpose was to come here and cause chaos.
> 
> 
> thanks :happy:


divine outpouring ji

This is not my reply to your questions regarding religion, but only an admin note. Multiple identities are a violation of Terms of Service. SPN reserves the right to ban anyone using multiple identities without notice and without giving reasons. However admin and mentors are always lenient when they apply this rule. It is unlikely you as "a muslim" or in your "other identity" were banned (kicked off) because of your beliefs. The following scenario is more to the point.

 Once a multiple identity is discovered, the integrity of a member suffers. Who are you really, one asks? If you are untruthful in one guise, can you be truthful in the other? Which identity is the one to believe? Or, can any be believed? Couple an uncertainty about truthfulness with a tendency of one of two identities/members to  taunt other members and question their intelligence and religious sincerity. The combination is toxic, and no forum can permit it to go on indefinitely. That is the reflection in the mirror that I hold up to you.

Now like you I hope to put this behind us and to discuss a profound question in a way that allow us to learn from one another.


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## spnadmin (Mar 12, 2010)

So divine outpouring ji

Your starter thread has the title, Who is closest to God? The title assumes that there can be a close, closer and closest relationship with God. And one would infer there is conversely a far, ****her, ****hest vantage point as well. And you also seem to be understanding love in terms of closeness to God and closeness in terms of love. Because you ask...

Who does God love the most? What criteria do Sikhs use to determine the answer to the first question? 

There are no criteria. I say that without apology. Criteria are not needed. All of creation is simply *close.* In Shabad Hazure, Guru Arjan Dev ji tells us that  God too near to be far.

In another shabad, we have glimpse into His indivisible, complete and total connection to us and all of creation.

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੧ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">sorath mehalaa 4 ghar 1
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Sorat'h, Fourth Mehl, First House:
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">ik  oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">  

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ  ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਅਪਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae aap varathadhaa piaaraa aapae aap apaahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Beloved Lord Himself pervades  and permeates all; He Himself is, all by Himself.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਵਣਜਾਰਾ  ਜਗੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">vanajaaraa jag aap hai piaaraa aapae saachaa saahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">My Beloved Himself is the trader in  this world; He Himself is the true banker.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਚੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae vanaj vaapaareeaa piaaraa  aapae sach vaesaahu ||1||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Beloved Himself is the trade and the trader; He Himself  is the true credit. ||1||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਜਪਿ  ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jap man har har naam salaah ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">O mind, meditate on the Lord, Har,  Har, and praise His Name.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ  ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">gur kirapaa thae paaeeai piaaraa  anmrith agam athhaah || rehaao ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable  and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਸੁਣਿ ਸਭ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae sun sabh vaekhadhaa piaaraa  mukh bolae aap muhaahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself sees and hears everything; He Himself  speaks through the mouths of all beings.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਉਝੜਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਖਾਲੇ ਰਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae oujharr paaeidhaa piaaraa aap vikhaalae raahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself leads us into  the wilderness, and He Himself shows us the Way.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਹੀ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੨॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae hee sabh aap hai piaaraa  aapae vaeparavaahu ||2||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself is Himself all-in-all; He Himself is  carefree. ||2||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਧੰਧੜੈ ਲਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae aap oupaaeidhaa piaaraa sir  aapae dhhandhharrai laahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself, all by Himself, created everything;  He Himself links all to their tasks.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪਿ  ਕਰਾਏ ਸਾਖਤੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aap karaaeae saakhathee piaaraa  aap maarae mar jaahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself creates the Creation, and He Himself  destroys it.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਪਤਣੁ ਪਾਤਣੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਹੁ ॥੩॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae pathan paathanee piaaraa  aapae paar langhaahu ||3||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">He Himself is the wharf, and He Himself is the ferryman,  who ferries us across. ||3||
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਸਾਗਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae saagar bohithhaa piaaraa gur  khaevatt aap chalaahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself is the ocean, and the boat; He Himself  is the Guru, the boatman who steers it
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਹੀ ਚੜਿ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਚੋਜ ਵੇਖੈ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae hee charr langhadhaa piaaraa  kar choj vaekhai paathisaahu ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">. The Beloved Himself sets sail and crosses over; He, the  King, beholds His wondrous play.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ  ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਹੁ ॥੪॥੧॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae aap dhaeiaal hai piaaraa jan  naanak bakhas milaahu ||4||1||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself is the Merciful Master; O servant  Nanak, He forgives and blends with Himself. ||4||1||</td></tr></tbody></table>

One can take this Shabad very seriously and take note that in nearly every line we are told that He pervades and permeates all of his Creation, and He is in and of Himself all of His Creation. He is the thread that links everything to everything. He speaks through all.  There is no separation. 

And so we read these wonderful metaphors: He is both the trade and the trader, the credit and the banker. These images tell us He is both the act and the doer of the act.

Other wonderful metaphors tell us that He cannot be separated from His Creation. As the wharf cannot be separated from the ferryman. He is both. The ocean cannot be separated from the boat. He is both. 

And more metaphors  tell us that He has *never *been separated from us. He exposes us to the wilderness (our self-created sense of being lost in an untamed place) but He guides us through it. He *blends *us to himself. 

I am just touching on some things that stand out for me. But here is the curious line.
<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ  ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">gur kirapaa thae paaeeai piaaraa  anmrith agam athhaah || rehaao ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable  and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||
</td></tr></tbody></table>
He cannot be approached and he cannot be fathomed. Still he is the same God who blends everyone to Himself. How can that be so? The verse tell us that what is only an apparent contradiction is resolved by His Grace. These metaphors of complete and total connection found in this shabad are developed throughout all of raag Soraath. We are the ones who create our distance from God. The idea of close, closer, closest is our idea, not His.

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤੂ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਵਸਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਤੇਰਾ  ਭਾਉ ਨ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਗਵਾਰੀ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">thoo hiradhai gupath vasehi dhin raathee thaeraa bhaao n  bujhehi gavaaree ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">You dwell, hidden, within my heart day and night, Lord;  but the poor fools do not understand Your Love.</td></tr></tbody></table>.


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## divine outpouring (Mar 12, 2010)

>>Pardon my ignorance but your question makes God or whatever you may call him/her/it a person with human traits. Please elaborate what God is for you. Secondly according to your question, it seems that the God you serve has some favourite people and others not so favourite. Does your God take sides and is biased?<<

I stated the question from 4 different perspectives so that amongst them you may find what I was trying to say. Let’s put it this way, God ‘raises’ and God ‘abases’. For example, in sikh understanding one may be reincarnated in a ‘raised’ state or ‘abased’ state depending on their current life. You can't take everything literally when speaking of God. So who has God ‘raised’ the most? And how did you reach that decision?

If you want me to elaborate on my personal beliefs regarding God please start another thread. I will be happy to answer you there. I don’t think my personal beliefs have any bearing on this discussion – I want to know what Sikhs believe. When I use the word God take it with the Sikh definition.

>>Your starter thread has the title, Who is closest to God? The title assumes that there can be a close, closer and closest relationship with God. And one would infer there is conversely a far, ****her, ****hest vantage point as well. And you also seem to be understanding love in terms of closeness to God and closeness in terms of love.
There are no criteria. I say that without apology. Criteria are not needed. All of creation is simply close. In Shabad Hazure, Guru Arjan Dev ji tells us that God too near to be far.<<

In reality God has no material place and therefore no distance. What I’m asking about here is the human perspective. For example, why do you go to the gurus for guidance and not to an atheist, when “All of creation is simply close”. From our point of view there is obviously a difference. 
When I asked a sikh friend I was told, “the ten gurus”. When I asked how that decision was reached I was not given an answer. That’s why I am here. Hope you understand the question the question now.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 12, 2010)

Divine pouring ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Let’s put it this way, God ‘raises’ and God ‘abases’. For example, in sikh understanding one may be reincarnated in a ‘raised’ state or ‘abased’ state depending on their current life. You can't take everything literally when speaking of God. So who has God ‘raised’ the most? And how did you reach that decision?



Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru to prove your point because SGGS is our only reference, hence our only Guru.



> If you want me to elaborate on my personal beliefs regarding God please start another thread. I will be happy to answer you there. I don’t think my personal beliefs have any bearing on this discussion – I want to know what Sikhs believe. When I use the word God take it with the Sikh definition.



Everything is part of the discussion and interaction. Only by talking about each other's beliefs, we can create some kind of understanding, For me to respond from a Sikhi view point, I have to understand where you are coming from and your viewpoint about the entity/god you serve. 

One does not have to start a new thread to talk about what you are asking here because I would like to know the same thing from you about your own faith.

Once again, let me ask you again, is the  God you serve biased? According to initial questions, it seems that he/she/it is. Can you please elaborate it?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## divine outpouring (Mar 13, 2010)

*>>>Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru to prove your point because SGGS is our only reference, hence our only Guru.<<<*

I got that knowledge from sikh friends. I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge. The type of knowledge that doesn’t demand proof at every mention. You say your name is Tejwant, I take your word for it. When the beeb show a documentary about space and represent the earth as round, I don’t write a letter of complaint asking them to prove the earth is round. It is in the corpus of common knowledge, as is the basic idea of reincarnation. 

*>>>Everything is part of the discussion and interaction. Only by talking about each other's beliefs, we can create some kind of understanding, For me to respond from a Sikhi view point, I have to understand where you are coming from and your viewpoint about the entity/god you serve. <<<
*

My question is about human understanding, to speak of God’s attributes here is not warranted. From the ‘point of view’ of God I think Narayanjot’s answer was comprehensive. There is no distance. 
Put it this way, you meet a person, you think, “gee, he’s a really good person”. What I’m asking is, how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? And to continue the thread, who is the best person? How did you reach that conclusion? 

Hope that helps


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 13, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> *>>>Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru to prove your point because SGGS is our only reference, hence our only Guru.<<<*
> 
> I got that knowledge from sikh friends. I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge. The type of knowledge that doesn’t demand proof at every mention. You say your name is Tejwant, I take your word for it. When the beeb show a documentary about space and represent the earth as round, I don’t write a letter of complaint asking them to prove the earth is round. It is in the corpus of common knowledge, as is the basic idea of reincarnation.
> 
> ...



Divine Pouring ji,

Guru Fateh.

If I told you that some Muslim friends told me that Islam discriminates against women, represses other religions, even beheads some Sikhs, which they did to the Sikhs, when they are trying to forcefully convert them into Islam, what would be your answer to that?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## divine outpouring (Mar 14, 2010)

*If I told you that some Muslim friends told me that Islam discriminates against women, represses other religions, even beheads some Sikhs, which they did to the Sikhs, when they are trying to forcefully convert them into Islam, what would be your answer to that?*

wow, now we've really drifted from the initial question. Seriously this is getting low, if you don't want to answer the question don't post a reply. Narayanjot, if you're reading this then i'd like to thank you for replying in a more serious manner, although i don't think you quite understood the question, however after reading your reply i can understand that my initial post could have been clearer. 

i'm genuinely looking for a serious discussion. Narayanjot (or anyone else who is can provide insight), i would appreciate it if you could answer the following question as you seemed to be genuinely interested in providing an insight;

who is the greatest person that ever lived? how did you reach that conclusion?

thanks


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## Sinister (Mar 14, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> who is the greatest person that ever lived? how did you reach that conclusion?
> 
> thanks


 
my mother...and why...cause she had to raise me!

asking a person; who is the greatest person that ever lived is like asking someone what their favourite colour is and then asking them to justify it. It is a type of question that will never reach a universal consensus but would simply project an individuals taste.

why do you wish to ask something so personal?


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## spnadmin (Mar 14, 2010)

divine outpouring ji

Here is my problem with the discussion so far, and the reason why I do not plan to continue in it until this problem is resolved. The questions you have been posing post by post have drifted a long way from the original questions that began the thread. It is not that I am against meandering conversations per se. But rather I do not really want to play the puppet to your puppeteer strings. This has been my concern all along with threads like this, particularly as the pertain to problems that Muslims have with Sikhs. It simply is not worth it. It is not productive. and is  waste of time. Either you want to read and reflect on what a few Sikhs have said here. Or you don't. I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said.


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## divine outpouring (Mar 14, 2010)

*my mother...and why...cause she had to raise me!

asking a person; who is the greatest person that ever lived is like asking someone what their favourite colour is and then asking them to justify it. It is a type of question that will never reach a universal consensus but would simply project an individual’s taste.
*


I see where you’re coming from but I don’t quite agree. Comparing favourite colours is a much less fruitful activity as it doesn’t really help anyone on the path of guidance. It is quite a superficial thing to do. Also, there is little shared ground between colours, such that you can’t really say anything else except that they’re different. When comparing people it is much more apparent that there is shared ground, in that we can ask, “who was the most generous?” or, “who was the most courageous?”, and that this shared ground is useful in that it allows us to compare in an ordinal way. 

*why do you wish to ask something so personal?*

I would like to know who Sikhs believe is the greatest person / people to have lived. I want to know the reasons for their personal decision, as I would like to use their standards to look at other figures and see why they are not considered greater than whoever they consider to be great. That’s it.

*Here is my problem with the discussion so far, and the reason why I do not plan to continue in it until this problem is resolved. The questions you have been posing post by post have drifted a long way from the original questions that began the thread. *

Let’s look at my questions. 
1)	Who is closest to God?
2)	Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most?
3)	Who God has favoured the most?
4)	Who best followed God's commands?
5)	Who was in closest union with God?
6)	What criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question(s)?
7)	how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? 
8)	What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? 
9)	Who is the best person? 
10)	How did you reach that conclusion?
11)	Who is the greatest person that ever lived? 
I don’t see a contradiction in my questions, it is the same 2 questions rephrased again and again as no-one seemed to understand them first time round. 
This is a forum of people who adhere to a religion, of people who believe in one God. so when I asked ‘who is closest to God?’ I assumed you would understand it to mean close in a metaphorical sense, the closest one being the person who best realised God. Such a person would be one whom God ‘loves’ – not human love, love here meaning attaining to God’s ‘pleasure’, such that he raises your state and one attains to God’s reward. 

Page 52, Line 16
ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
जितड़े फल मनि बाछीअहि तितड़े सतिगुर पासि ॥
Jiṯ▫ṛe fal man bācẖẖī▫ah ṯiṯ▫ṛe saṯgur pās.
All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 95, Line 7
ਮੇਰੀ ਸਰਧਾ ਪੂਰਿ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਮਨੁ ਭੀਜੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
मेरी सरधा पूरि जगजीवन दाते मिलि हरि दरसनि मनु भीजै जीउ ॥१॥
Merī sarḏẖā pūr jagjīvan ḏāṯe mil har ḏarsan man bẖījai jī▫o. ||1||
Please reward my faith, O Life of the World, O Great Giver. Obtaining the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan, my mind is fulfilled. ||1||
Guru Ram Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 105, Line 16
ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਾ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
जिस का सा तिस ते फलु पाइआ ॥
Jis kā sā ṯis ṯe fal pā▫i▫ā.
We are His, and from Him, we receive our rewards.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 105, Line 19
ਸੁਣੀ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
सुणी बेनंती ठाकुरि मेरै पूरन होई घाली जीउ ॥२॥
Suṇī benanṯī ṯẖākur merai pūran ho▫ī gẖālī jī▫o. ||2||
My Lord and Master has heard my prayer; my efforts have been rewarded. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Such a person would receive God’s ‘favour’, he wouldn’t deviate from God’s command, he would be in union with God. See how it all ties in? I was trying to ask the question in different ways so maybe you would understand one of the ways and use it as a doorway into the discourse. When that didn’t work, I tried a few other ways, for example ‘how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people?’, ‘who is the best person?’ etc. 

The second question pertains to the thought process as to how the answer to the first question was reached. It is the second question I am really interested in. What signs do Sikhs look for in people to indicate goodness?

*It is not that I am against meandering conversations per se. But rather I do not really want to play the puppet to your puppeteer strings. This has been my concern all along with threads like this, particularly as the pertain to problems that Muslims have with Sikhs. It simply is not worth it. It is not productive. and is waste of time. Either you want to read and reflect on what a few Sikhs have said here. Or you don't. I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said.*

When you speak of being a puppet to my strings, use phrases like ‘threads like this’ and ‘problems muslims have with Sikhs’, it makes me think you have a pretty negative opinion of me. It presses me to conclude that you think I have some sort of hidden agenda, that you have been unhappy with your discourses with muslims in the past and do not want to repeat them. Almost like muslims have been playing some kind of game with you to defame your religion and you have caught onto it. Now, awake and wise you will not let them get any ground on you. You will spot their techniques from a mile off and counter them before they have chance to strike.

I’m not playing any games.

The danger with such an approach, if that is what you are doing, is that muslims who are genuinely looking to gain an understanding get tainted with the same brush, and their chances to learn are vastly reduced before they even open their mouth due to an underlying prejudice which has grown out of this antagonism. An antagonism guru Nanak disliked abhorrently. 

My ‘agenda’ here is to try and learn why you love your religious figures so much, what qualities abounded in them that rendered them special above the rest of mankind, such that you adhere to their teachings the most. It is an opportunity to tell someone why you love your gurus so much. What do you have to fear? I thought you would love to answer such a question.

*I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said*

try me.
now (i hope) that you understand the questions, let's have an honest, productive discourse.


----------



## gur_meet (Mar 15, 2010)

divine outpouring ji

we love our Guru's because 


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naanak sathagur meeth kar sach paavehi dharageh jaae ||4||20||
Says Nanak, make the True Guru your loving friend; going to His Court, you shall obtain the True Lord. ||4||20|| 
  Sggs 22
 

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*/  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin-top:0in;     mso-para-margin-right:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;     mso-para-margin-left:0in;     line-height:115%;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]-->  ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
sathagur milai andhhaeraa jaae ||
Meeting the True Guru, the darkness is dispelled 
 ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੩॥
*jeh dhaekhaa theh rehiaa samaae ||3||* 
Wherever I look, there I see Him pervading. ||3|| 
  SGGS 876
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table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin-top:0in;     mso-para-margin-right:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;     mso-para-margin-left:0in;     line-height:115%;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]-->  ਜਿਨੀ ਪੁਰਖੀ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਨ ਸੇਵਿਓ ਸੇ ਦੁਖੀਏ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages. 
  SGGS 34


  Our Satguru is ' Shabad Guru ' - the creator HIMSELF.


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## kuldeepsb5 (Mar 15, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> hi everyone, i have a question which i hope you'll find interesting. before i pose it, i would like to say a couple of things.
> 
> i have been on these forums before under different names. i was on here once as 'a muslim' and later as something else (can't remember the name i used then). as 'a muslim' i felt a great warmth from the spn community and a real effort to answer my queries for the sake of greater understanding. as the other name i was accused of being someone else (as i used someone elses computer, who also happened to be a member) who took an approach to questioning which the community didn't respond to as well. i was kicked off the forums even though i personally did not cause offence, and now i am back as i have more questions which i hope you will answer in the same spirit as you answered 'a muslim'. i wanted to clear that up in case the moderators thought i was an ill doer whose only purpose was to come here and cause chaos.
> 
> ...



I shall be trying to answer your queries one by one ,step by step, and  one answer daily. Answer to your first question is from Gurbani of Guru GObind Singh JI as under:-

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਜਾਗਿਤ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ  ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">Jagit  jot japai nis basur eaek bina man naik n anai ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">He the Khalsa meditates on the  Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord  from the mind.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ  ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">Pooran praem prateet sajai brat gor marrhee matt  bhool na manai ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">He  decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believed not in  fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">   </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯਾ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ  ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹਿ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">Teerathh dan daya tap sanjam eaek bina nehi eaek  pachhanai ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">He  knows none except the one Lord in the performance of acts of pilgrimage,  charities, compassion, austerities and self-control.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 
</td></tr></tbody></table><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ  ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ 
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">Pooran  jot jagai ghatt mai tab khalas tahi nakhalas janai ||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Such a man, in whose heart shines  the full Divinely Radiant Light is a true a pure Khalsa.</td></tr></tbody></table> Dasam   Paathshaah Guru   Gobind Singh Shabad:


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## divine outpouring (Mar 16, 2010)

thank you gur_meet and kuldeepsb5 for your earnest responses. it's great to see the discussion moving forwards instead of sideways for a change!

*ਨਾਨਕਸਤਗੁਰੁਮੀਤੁਕਰਿਸਚੁਪਾਵਹਿਦਰਗਹਜਾਇ॥੪॥੨੦॥


naanak sathagur meeth kar sach paavehi dharageh jaae ||4||20||
Says Nanak, make the True Guru your loving friend; going to His Court, you shall obtain the True Lord. ||4||20|| 
Sggs 22


ਸਤਗੁਰੁਮਿਲੈਅੰਧੇਰਾਜਾਇ॥
sathagur milai andhhaeraa jaae ||
Meeting the True Guru, the darkness is dispelled 
ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਰਹਿਆਸਮਾਇ॥੩॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rehiaa samaae ||3|| 
Wherever I look, there I see Him pervading. ||3|| 
SGGS 876
ਜਿਨੀਪੁਰਖੀਸਤਗੁਰੁਨਸੇਵਿਓਸੇਦੁਖੀਏਜੁਗਚਾਰਿ॥
jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages. 
SGGS 34


Our Satguru is ' Shabad Guru ' - the creator HIMSELF.*

Spiritual figures from all major religions have said similar things. What is it that set the Gurus apart from the rest? I am assuming Sikhs believe the Gurus to be the best of mankind. If that is not the case then please let me know. 

As a non-Sikh, i can't relate to your personal experiences and opinions. Are there any objective characteristics of the Gurus which Sikhs sing the praises of? For example, i have seen that courage / bravery are strongly attributed to the Gurus. What else is there about them that leads you to conclude that they are the best of mankind?

thank you


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## gur_meet (Mar 16, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> *
> 
> 
> Our Satguru is ' Shabad Guru ' - the creator HIMSELF.*
> ...



divine outpouring ji

I expected these questions.

For the Sikhs it is not the physical body that is seen in the Guru but the 'Jyote' in them. The age is also no consideration nor any linage. The same 'jyote' is within the Sri Guru Granth Sahebji . The Gurbani has been changing the Sikh psyche then and even now. The Gurbani gives wisdom. direction and above all develops Love with the formless God . It is the Shabad Roop Gurbani  that enables the Sikh to meet Shabad Guru Within him/her .
The Physical body of the Guru where 'jyote' is shining is loved by the Guru's Sikh as well and so is Sri Guru Granth Sahebji.

The bani of other Bhagats that forms part of SGGSji clearly shows that the Shabad came through the bodies of Bhagats as well.

The Allah. Hari, God are same  this our Guru clearly tells us. These is only oneness.

The Guru's loved all mankind and their life is an example.A large number of Gursikhs have also set examples through the life they lived.

Veer *kuldeepsb5 *has also chosen to answer your questions one by one.


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## ballym (Mar 17, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> Spiritual figures from all major religions have said similar things. What is it that set the Gurus apart from the rest? I am assuming Sikhs believe the Gurus to be the best of mankind. If that is not the case then please let me know.
> 
> For example, i have seen that courage / bravery are strongly attributed to the Gurus. What else is there about them that leads you to conclude that they are the best of mankind?
> 
> thank you


 
I am not as learned as you but I would say that all religions have something different to say or convey. May be it is in the delivery part.
muslim religion says... Allaah is last ... final... more like.. I am the best!!!.

Christians say... jesus is SON of GOD... this leads to many uncomfortable questions i would not like to ask... but the point is that they also claim that He is only ... sort of authorised... to take you to God.
hinduism... or hindu religion has a god for each person on earth!( just fun... no disrespect)... but they have developed such a system which is much away from what Geeta has said. they needed a cleansing which Guru Nanak Devji provided... by simplifying the clutter. Unfortunately, this clutter is coming in sikh religion also. 
our religion also teaches us to be humble. Whole book of SGGS ji is full of words for being humble.
We love our religion because we can question him... like you say..."_If that is not the case then please let me know._ " 
SO it is not SIMILIAR things all religions say or convey. I do not want to give further points on this because you will start accusing me of diverting/ aggressive etc. ( or similair words or tone... do not start on this now)
I guess it is a natural outcome of competitive spirit of human brain. It is much needed for development but has ssome side effects.

So who is closest to God. *Everyone.* But you need to realise this. this lack of realization takes you away from God.
Why we need Guru... to make us realize God. 
BTW, what qualities made your maths teacher your favorite..( if you were good in maths!!!)?

Now... I and many others on this forum would like to know WHAT YOU have to say about the answers to these questions. You had been very good at sidestepping this issue.
Let us hear you now.
If not, then why on this earth you are here.
Is it a monologue.. from our side? or is it like a site of muslim faith (which talks about one side only) referenced on some other thread here... that site does not have any discussion forum...just their one sided so-called answers!
One more last thing, please let me have some links to muslim sites with a discussion board.... I guess this is much easier question to answer without if and but and oh and ah. Simple numbered list please.


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## divine outpouring (Mar 20, 2010)

Thank you for your posts! Sorry for my late reply. To be honest, I’m not the most organised man and I have a lot on my plate at the moment. Don’t take that to mean I’m not interested in the discussion!



gur_meet said:


> divine outpouring ji
> 
> I expected these questions.
> 
> ...



Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand now. What Sikhs are looking for when searching for truth is not something that can be seen with the external senses. That makes sense (no pun intended), however, a question arises: can we recognise greatness with the external senses and rational thought alone? Or is greatness, of the sort attributed to the gurus, to be seen with the heart alone. 

If greatness can be seen externally then what are those external signs that make you choose the Gurus over the rest of mankind?

If it can only be seen internally then greatness is an entirely subjective experience, as we’d have no means by which to agree on its definition.




ballym said:


> I am not as learned as you but I would say that all religions have something different to say or convey. May be it is in the delivery part.
> muslim religion says... Allaah is last ... final... more like.. I am the best!!!.
> 
> Christians say... jesus is SON of GOD... this leads to many uncomfortable questions i would not like to ask... but the point is that they also claim that He is only ... sort of authorised... to take you to God.
> ...




When I say many spiritual leaders have said the same thing I was referring to the SGGS quote in the previous post, the one that ended with

*jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages. 
SGGS 34*

I was watching Sikh TV (UK) the other day, there was some sort of conference in Leeds and I remember one of the speakers saying “if you live your life by Gurmat principles you will be truly successful (or words to that effect).” It struck me, the Muslims say the same thing about Islamic principles and the Christians about their principles, yet externally we are all so different. It’s easy enough to say that we all worship the same God, but some differences are irreconcilable. For example, an afterlife of heaven/hell and reincarnation cannot both be true. Yet if your Gurus were God conscious, receiving their teachings from an infallible divine source, and everyone else believes the same about their religious figures then we have a problem, as not everyone can be right.

How do we resolve this issue? Look at all the religious figures in an objective way. Try to discern, through the signs apparent in their lives, who was the most God-conscious. Then follow that person/the teachings manifest through that person as they are in the best position to take you to God. 

That is what I’m trying to do here. As I have mentioned I am officially a Muslim, although I do feel like an embarrassment to the religion sometimes. I have had some exposure through my instructors of the reasons why Muslims believe the Prophet, peace be upon him, to be the greatest of all creation. I am trying to get the same kind of information here about the Gurus.

From your answer I can see a list of signs emerging:

Guru Nanak cleared the clutter from Hinduism
Sikhism teaches you to be humble
Sikhs can question their religion 

I’m guessing you’re asking me as a Muslim, to answer my questions on the gurus except with regards to the messenger of God, may peace and blessings be upon him as Allah promised.

I don’t want to make this post too long as the subject has been referred to extensively by many authors.

An excellent book on the subject is called Ash-shifa by an imam called Qadi ‘Iyad ((1083 - 1149)). 

Here are some of the chapter headings:
Chapter One, Allah’s praise of him (the prophet) and His great esteem of him
1)	concerning praise of him and his numerous excellent qualities
2)	Allah describing him as a witness, and the praise and honour entailed by that
3)	Concerning Allah’s kindness and gentleness towards him
4)	Concerning Allah swearing by his immense worth
5)	Concerning Allah’s oath to confirm his place with Him
6)	Concerning Allah’s addressing the prophet with compassion and generosity
(there are many more sections in this chapter, they all deal with how Allah treated the prophet peace be upon him and spoke of him in His glorious revelation.)

Chapter two, Allah’s perfecting his good qualities of character and constitution, and giving him all the virtues of the deen and this world
1)	preface
2)	his physical attributes
3)	his cleanliness
4)	his intellect, eloquence and the acuteness of his faculties
5)	his eloquence and sound Arabic
6)	the nobility of his lineage, the honour of his birthplace and the place where he was brought up
7)	his state regarding the necessary actions of daily life
8)	marriage and the things connected to it
9)	things connected to money and goods
10)	his praiseworthy qualities
11)	his intellect
12)	his forbearance, long suffering and pardon
13)	his generosity and liberality
14)	his courage and bravery
15)	his modesty and lowering the glance
16)	his good companionship, good manners and good nature
17)	his compassion and mercy
(there are many more sub-sections to this chapter, dealing with the personality of the prophet peace be upon him)

The book goes on to describe the inward states and other aspects of the messenger peace be upon him. I recommend it as it is available in English, there are many other works but they have not been translated.

I’m not actually a member of any Muslim message boards, so we’re in the same boat when it comes to searching for them. Try Google. I know BBC have separate message boards for all major faiths.

I haven't gone into the evidences which each chapter gives as it would simply take ages, but i hope you have an idea of the importance of the subject in Islam and the way in which it is studied. 

Hope that has helped to answer any questions you may have. 

looking forward to reading your replies


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## ballym (Mar 20, 2010)

a real quick skimming of your reply gives following points:
1. sikh religion finally teaches you to be humble and earn by doing real job....
2. Islam is leading people to basically hate others.. kaafir theory etc, no mingling with other faith etc.
3. Allah qualities referred by you are all ... QUALITATIVE... where is real/ practical example from his life.
4. Where did  you get Islam Knowledge..... That place must have a option for discussion. Is is there... say yes or no..... No long answers please.


 I am in hurry so language is straight and  more discussion is needed. Let me have pointwise.... short and crisp answers.


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## Satyaban (Mar 21, 2010)

Outpouring ji

I understand your original question to be:

"Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most, or the one who God has favoured the most, or the one who best followed God's commands, or the one who was in closest union with God?"

It then morphed into:

"What I’m asking is, how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? And to continue the thread, who is the best person? How did you reach that conclusion?"


And now I think the latest reiteration is:

"who is the greatest person that ever lived? how did you reach that conclusion?"

I am not a Sikh but I think before anyone can answer I think your intent should be better defined. If I were to attempt to answer these vague questions, even without knowing the underlying intent, each would most likely be different. I will respond as follows.

First I have never considered that The Creator would love one creation more than another.

Secondly any determination concerning who is good and who is bad is wholly subjective and relative to each human experience That which is meat to one may be poison to another. As far as commands go some individuals have said God commands this and God commands that and each has followers who believe and accept it, which is fine, but these proclamations are not universal. I know of no such commands myself. Without knowing what is in a person's heart, and not what they say is in there, who is to know who is best or if there is a best. I do know I am not the best and very little more

Thirdly I think "who is the greatest?" is a really silly question. Mohamed Ali the boxer? 

Because a person's faith is central to your query I do hope no religio-centric's answers are based on the false belief that their religion has an exclusivity on the truth.

I do hope this post does not appear harsh, it is not meant to be.

Peace


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## Satyaban (Mar 21, 2010)

I should have read every post before I took action but I thought there was only one page. I think a claim of exclusivity of the truth has been made. So I will amend my responses to those several questions.

The correct answer to all of them is the Prophet Muhammad, his companions and the infallibles.

So I guess my answer to who was the greatest being Muhammed Ali was close. LOL LOL

Peace


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 21, 2010)

Divine Pouring ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> That is what I’m trying to do here. As I have mentioned I am officially a  Muslim, although I do feel like an embarrassment to the religion  sometimes.* I have had some exposure through my instructors of the  reasons why Muslims believe the Prophet, peace be upon him, to be the  greatest of all creation*.



I have some questions about what you mentioned above.

1. What is a Prophet?
2. Is it a title?
3. Who gave this title to Mohammed?
4. What does a Prophet do, his duties or responsibilities?
5. How can one become a Prophet?
6. What evidence do you have that makes  you believe- your words,"*why Muslims believe the Prophet, peace be upon him, to be the  greatest of all creation"?

*And also please check my post under the following thread which also concerns Islam and respond to it.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/29589-another-cartoon-traumatizes-the-muslim-community.html

It is  post number 3.

Thanks and hope to learn from you about your religion.

Tejwant Singh


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## Astroboy (Mar 21, 2010)

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬੀਰ  ਰੋੜਾ  ਹੋਇ  ਰਹੁ  ਬਾਟ  ਕਾ  ਤਜਿ  ਮਨ  ਕਾ  ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ  ॥ 
कबीर रोड़ा होइ रहु बाट का तजि मन  का अभिमानु ॥ 
Kabīr roṛā ho▫e rahu bāt kā ṯaj man kā  abẖimān. 
Kabeer, let yourself be a  pebble on the path; abandon your egotistical pride. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਐਸਾ  ਕੋਈ  ਦਾਸੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਤਾਹਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਭਗਵਾਨੁ  ॥੧੪੬॥ 
ऐसा कोई दासु होइ ताहि मिलै  भगवानु ॥१४६॥ 
Aisā ko▫ī ḏās ho▫e ṯāhi milai bẖagvān.  ||146|| 
Such a humble slave shall  meet the Lord God. ||146|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬੀਰ  ਰੋੜਾ  ਹੂਆ  ਤ  ਕਿਆ  ਭਇਆ  ਪੰਥੀ  ਕਉ  ਦੁਖੁ  ਦੇਇ  ॥ 
कबीर रोड़ा हूआ त किआ भइआ पंथी कउ  दुखु देइ ॥ 
Kabīr roṛā hū▫ā ṯa ki▫ā bẖa▫i▫ā panthī  ka▫o ḏukẖ ḏe▫e. 
Kabeer, what good would it  be, to be a pebble? It would only hurt the traveler on the path. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਐਸਾ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਦਾਸੁ  ਹੈ  ਜਿਉ  ਧਰਨੀ  ਮਹਿ  ਖੇਹ  ॥੧੪੭॥ 
ऐसा तेरा दासु है जिउ धरनी महि  खेह ॥१४७॥ 
Aisā ṯerā ḏās hai ji▫o ḏẖarnī mėh kẖeh.  ||147|| 
Your slave, O Lord, is  like the dust of the earth. ||147|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬੀਰ  ਖੇਹ  ਹੂਈ  ਤਉ  ਕਿਆ  ਭਇਆ  ਜਉ  ਉਡਿ  ਲਾਗੈ  ਅੰਗ  ॥ 
कबीर खेह हूई तउ किआ भइआ जउ उडि  लागै अंग ॥ 
Kabīr kẖeh hū▫ī ṯa▫o ki▫ā bẖa▫i▫ā ja▫o ud  lāgai ang. 
Kabeer, what then, if one  could become dust? It is blown up by the wind, and sticks to the body. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਜਨੁ  ਐਸਾ  ਚਾਹੀਐ  ਜਿਉ  ਪਾਨੀ  ਸਰਬੰਗ  ॥੧੪੮॥ 
हरि जनु ऐसा चाहीऐ जिउ पानी सरबंग  ॥१४८॥ 
Har jan aisā cẖāhī▫ai ji▫o pānī sarbang.  ||148|| 
The humble servant of the  Lord should be like water, which cleans everything. ||148|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬੀਰ  ਪਾਨੀ  ਹੂਆ  ਤ  ਕਿਆ  ਭਇਆ  ਸੀਰਾ  ਤਾਤਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
कबीर पानी हूआ त किआ भइआ सीरा  ताता होइ ॥ 
Kabīr pānī hū▫ā ṯa ki▫ā bẖa▫i▫ā sīrā ṯāṯā  ho▫e. 
Kabeer, what then, if one  could become water? It becomes cold, then hot. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਜਨੁ  ਐਸਾ  ਚਾਹੀਐ  ਜੈਸਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਹੀ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੧੪੯॥ 
हरि जनु ऐसा चाहीऐ जैसा हरि ही  होइ ॥१४९॥ 
Har jan aisā cẖāhī▫ai jaisā har hī ho▫e.  ||149|| 
The humble servant of the  Lord should be just like the Lord. ||149|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## ballym (Mar 21, 2010)

I raised this discussion with my wife and her reply was that if prophet Mohammed is the ultimate, then why he is not availabe to all. I mean why God has not made sure that everyone realises that all other roads lead to hell.
 This ego supports the idea of annihilation of others. Some muslims ( may be most) may not get that feeling but ... by instilling fear, a handful people( like taliban terrorising entire world or Bhindranwale group ruling over Punjab for those few years..... remember Punjab Roadways services stopping at 5 PM?) are able to snatch the undue limelight.

 So all religion are similar outwardly but are different in details. These details make the difference.
 That is why looking at other religions is useful in understanding our own religion by birth.
 I guess, this discussion is leading to waste of time... or strengthening our beliefs( find good things in everything).


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## gur_meet (Mar 21, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand now. What Sikhs are looking for when searching for truth is not something that can be seen with the external senses. That makes sense (no pun intended), however, a question arises: can we recognise greatness with the external senses and rational thought alone? Or is greatness, of the sort attributed to the gurus, to be seen with the heart alone.
> 
> If greatness can be seen externally then what are those external signs that make you choose the Gurus over the rest of mankind?
> 
> If it can only be seen internally then greatness is an entirely subjective experience, as we’d have no means by which to agree on its definition.


Divine Outpouring ji

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.MsoChpDefault     {mso-style-type:export-only;     mso-default-props:yes;     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault     {mso-style-type:export-only;     margin-bottom:10.0pt;     line-height:115%;} @page Section1     {size:8.5in 11.0in;     margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;     mso-header-margin:.5in;     mso-footer-margin:.5in;     mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1     {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin-top:0in;     mso-para-margin-right:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;     mso-para-margin-left:0in;     line-height:115%;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]-->  What external signs there could be? These are so deceptive. The dress, the followers, the assertions, the practices are all so enticing but always when we look at the life of  Bhagats and  saints it is found that it has always been the inner knowing  that decided the path. The Gursikhs who initially came to the Guru decided to be Sikh though an internal decision. Yes, this is it would have been the deciding factor.
  The rational thought or an external sign is not always right. Most of the time it is rationalizing the belief being held dear. The internal decision is not always an emotional swaying. One just knows that what has been found is the truth.
  The spiritual path is akin to a search. Out of the visible signs we have to search the hidden truth. The words of a Guru strike a chord only when we are prepared within and looking for it.
  The Sikhs love and choose their Guru’s first out of present day associating with sangat  but as the growth comes it is the truth of the Guru’s word and the direction that enhances the love of the Guru manifold.


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## Taranjeet singh (Mar 22, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> hi everyone, i have a question which i hope you'll find interesting. before i pose it, i would like to say a couple of things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear Divine pouring ji,

Many have tried to answer you and see that you are satisfied. I shall go back to the title of the thread as to 'Who is closest to the God'. The answer can best be replied from the Guru Granth Sahib ji that we treat as our Guru. I hope and expect that you have basic understanding of sikhism.

*Approach to the question*

As the common-sense says  one who is closest to the God would be a person who is likely to receive the Grace of the God. The Grace is bestowed on those who are pleasing to the lord. Our exploration is thus to locate those persons and their acts that make the person pleasing to the God. Taking clues from the Guru we can divide the persons into the following  Broad categories.

*Persons who are pleasing to the God*

1,Persons who praise the naam .i.e the insignia of the Almighty.[130-7]
2. Those who chant The Naam.[122-11] Here the reference is not direct but implied.
3.Persons who are engaged in devotional worship of the Almighty.[122-5]
4.Those who are attuned to His love [122-10],Indirect reference
5.Those persons who engage in doing the acts that makes one humble.[137-2]
6.Those who remain detached from the worldly affairs and maya [139-8]
7.Those who are in the service to the Guru[165-5]

I can enlarge the list. But it is only indicative so that you have an idea of the answer.

*A common-sensical rule*

This is the Broad category of the persons who are pleasing to the Lord and hence are directly , as per my humble opinion, eligible for the Grant of His Grace. You would kindly observe that all the above persons/seekers are those who are complying with the instructions and as a general rule it can be stated that all the Devotees who are in devotion to the Almighty through the Guru's Teachings are the persons who are closest to the God. In sikhism there is no difference between His devotee and the Lord.

Hope it clarifies.


With Regards!


Tarnajeet


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## Satyaban (Mar 22, 2010)

Outpouring ji

Would you please respond to my post number 19 this thread.

Peace


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## Seeker9 (Sep 19, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> hi everyone, i have a question which i hope you'll find interesting. before i pose it, i would like to say a couple of things.
> 
> i have been on these forums before under different names. i was on here once as 'a muslim' and later as something else (can't remember the name i used then). as 'a muslim' i felt a great warmth from the spn community and a real effort to answer my queries for the sake of greater understanding. as the other name i was accused of being someone else (as i used someone elses computer, who also happened to be a member) who took an approach to questioning which the community didn't respond to as well. i was kicked off the forums even though i personally did not cause offence, and now i am back as i have more questions which i hope you will answer in the same spirit as you answered 'a muslim'. i wanted to clear that up in case the moderators thought i was an ill doer whose only purpose was to come here and cause chaos.
> 
> ...



I hope you will be able to see where I am coming from here


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## findingmyway (Sep 21, 2010)

divine outpouring said:


> *jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
> Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages.
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib 34*
> 
> I was watching Sikh TV (UK) the other day, there was some sort of conference in Leeds and I remember one of the speakers saying “if you live your life by Gurmat principles you will be truly successful (or words to that effect).” It struck me, the Muslims say the same thing about Islamic principles and the Christians about their principles, yet externally we are all so different. It’s easy enough to say that we all worship the same God, but some differences are irreconcilable. For example, an afterlife of heaven/hell and reincarnation cannot both be true. Yet if your Gurus were God conscious, receiving their teachings from an infallible divine source, and everyone else believes the same about their religious figures then we have a problem, as not everyone can be right.




I fear you misunderstand the quote. When a Sikh is miserable, it is not because he/she is suffering from the wrath of God but because he/she is stuck in worldly desires impeding spiritual development. It is because he/she has not subdued the 5 devils inside of themself and therefore are still ruled by them. It has nothing to do with God but with the way we exercise our fee will! 

Secondly define successful. Are you looking at it in spiritual terms or worldly terms?


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## polpol (Sep 22, 2010)

I must say, I am in total admiration for all the people who replied to D.O. with respect and patience. You are great embassadors of sikhism and I would say you are indeed very very close to God. I still have a long way to go. To me, D.O.'s question is silly and not worth any consideration. It is what we call an idle question ie. not a real question, it mostly aims to provoke, destabilise, accuse, etc. I would tend to say that I don't like him and I think he chose a pseudonyme that has a disrespectful connotation (that's why I use the abbreviation). I also think that this poor fellow has personal issues about his faith and that he feels he has drifted far, far away from God. Very pathetic.
D.O., please be truthful about your real concerns. People here have shown honesty and they can help you if only you let them. I tried to stay out of this since I am not a Sikh but I just couldn't. I am sorry for interfering, I won't do it again.


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## spnadmin (Sep 22, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> divine outpouring ji
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Polpol ji

The second post in this thread is one which questions the integrity of DO and his motivations. Yes, forum members are very patient.


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## whatcomesafterfour (Oct 19, 2010)

a new born child


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