# Trouble Between Religions



## drkhalsa (Dec 10, 2004)

THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE THREAD JULY 10 2009, as a reference and resource for continuing discussion of Trouble Between Religions. Narayanjot Kaur


Misunderstanding regarding the principles, concepts and philosophy of a religion exists, usually not only in the minds of those who are not members of it but also in the minds of those who profess to be its true followers, or even champions and preachers of that faith. In case of Sikhism this is particularly so. Most of what is said, followed and preached by majority of the Sikhs about Sikhism, cannot be considered a part of the Sikh faith, rather some of it is anti-Sikhism. 

We have developed our own interpretation of Sikhism by watching the behavior and actions of political and religious leaders which quite often may not agree with the principles of the faith. Unless all the notions so formed, are taken out of our mind. Sikhism cannot be understood in its true perspective as preached and practiced by the Gurus. To properly understand this article the reader is, therefore, requested to forget, at least temporarily, all the ideas about Sikhism he has already formed in his mind.
Because of the new thoughts given by the "learned Sikhs" original concepts of Sikhism as delivered by Guru Nanak, have been diluted, discolored and sometimes deliberately misinterpreted. If this is allowed to happen for sometime more, Sikhism, like Hinduism will, become undefinable. Hinduism cannot be regarded as distinct, definite religion. As understood today, Hinduism has become a culture. It has many mixed together under one common name. this faith has more than one independent and sometimes contradictory concepts. Idolatry is valued high and practiced regularly by some Hindus while others have not just given it up but are vehemently opposed to it. People who kill cow and people who worship cow, both claim to be Hindus. Some gods need the sacrifice of animals, others advise Ahinsa Parmo dharma. If one is an Indian and non Muslim, or a Christian, he can be broadly classified as a Hindu.
Sikhism as well, like any other faith, has been given new interpretations intentionally, or unintentionally. this happened even during the Gurus' period. At that time any corruption in the faith was emphatically rejected even if it meant discarding the sons and near relatives of the Gurus. The purity of the faith was maintained at every cost.
Today, Hinduism has about three dozen Bhagwans each claiming to be the God-incarnate (not just sent by God) which obviously cannot be correct. There are today more than 250 answers to the question of 'What is Christianity'? Rather more serious, is the case with Islam in which there are fundamental differences, one sect is not ready to consider the other as a believer of the faith. Many killings have taken place because of the differences in deciding what Islam is and what it is not. In the near future, the Sikh "Saints" and the modern scholars along with political leaders will make, rather they have already made to a great extent, Sikhism too a hotch-potch of many self-contradictory beliefs and principles.
Sikhs believe that the tenth Nanak passed on the Guruship to the Adi Granth as eternal Shabad Guru. A very small minority, however, believers that Baba Ram Singh was nominated as the 11th Guru. Therefore, this nomination is going on in the same family as an ancestral right today. They do not take Amrit as done by the first category who believe in the Guruship of the Adi Granth. If rituals are any indication of the religion, these Sikhs are orthodox Hindus with Keshas. They have the faith in the Adi Granth not as a Guru but as a book.
Quite a few other sects have also emerged which claim to be the followers of Guru Nanak, even when they have little regard for the Gurbani written by the Gurus. They mis-quote some sections of it to justify their own 'revised' interpretation of the faith. Outwardly they keep the appearance of Sikhs but the faith and rituals they preach and the spiritual path they describe to perceive God, have nothing common with that mentioned in the Adi Granth, call them cheats. They feel Sikh appearance by such fake 'Gurus' is being kept to catch the un-wary Sikhs into their net while preaching everything against Sikhism.
It is noted with regret that historically, these so called 'Gurus' began as "preachers" of Sikhism. When they were accused of distorting the original concept they debated and tried to prove their description to be the genuine faith. Later on, when their identity was well established; they took advantage of the political situation and constitutional rights, and disconnected themselves from their Sikh base and started claiming themselves to be the founders and preachers of a new faith. They no more call themselves Sikhs and have adopted new names. This has resulted in mutual fights and quarrels, one protecting the original faith, the other trying to destroy it to establish itself.
*Popular concept-its analysis*
Those who have written about Sikhism, can be grouped into distinct categories. One group believes that Sikhism is another sect of Hinduism and they think that Sikhs are Hindus with 'Keshas'. Others feel that Sikhism is that modern version of Hinduism which excludes orthodox and dogmatic approaches of the faith. The Western writers and many Indians too, however, feel that it is the resultant effect of Islam and Hinduism inter-acting together. They base their conclusion on the thesis that some of the rituals/principles of the Sikh faith agree with Islam (belief in one God, rejection of Idols) and others agree with Hindu faith (soul migration, marriage, death and birth ceremonies). Some people who keep the Sikh philosophy in mind rather than rituals followed by Sikhs observe that Sikhism is very near Islam less the fanaticism which was shown by the Muslim rulers. People very favorable to Sikhism have written that Guru Nanak picked up the good points both from Hinduism and Islam and named the combination of these as Sikhism.
The author feels all these views originate from the ignorance about the birth of Sikhism, its development in Punjab and its further progress in the whole if India, rather the whole world. To consider Sikhism as another faith is not acceptable to this writer, who believes Sikhism is not one more addition to the long lists of faiths in God, the principals of the faith and the practices suggested for a Sikh, one cannot help to recognize that Sikhism does not belong to the class of the existing religions. It is a class by itself and fundamentally different from all existing religions.
When observed superficially some of the practices and beliefs may appear to be already existing in one or the other faith, but when studied thoroughly, these would be found having a different meaning from that given to them earlier by some other faith. Sikhism, therefore, cannot be placed on the same platform as other religions, it has to be given a new platform, a new place, a different place.
Let us study some beliefs common on Sikhism and other religions to explain this point. Hindus burn their dead and the Muslims bury them. The practice of burning their dead by Sikhs cannot be said to have been taken from Hinduism because the faith behind the action is totally different. Sikhism believes all practices, burning, burying, throwing in the water or any other method of disposing of the dead body equally good. These practices do neither any benefit nor any harm to the soul. This means Sikh adopt these methods without assigning any religious sanctity to these rituals which is not the case with other religions.
Similarly, in case Sikhs bury their dead it is not because Muslims do it. The same action is based again in a different philosophy. The latter do it because if the body is put on fire, the soul goes to hell, while the former do it, because it is a convenient method of disposing of the dead body. If the Sikhs throw their dead in the river to be consumed by the water life, the practice has not been taken from the Parsis who throw their dead to the vultures. All this proves that even when the same ritual is followed by Sikh it does not have the same meaning as in Hinduism or Islam.
If in Sikhism a particular spiritual thought, is same or similar to that of another religion, it is not an adoption from that religion because conceptually the two are different. The belief in only one God (not in many gods as in Hinduism) and non-worship of idols, have not been taken from the Muslim faith because the philosophy behind these practices is totally different in the two cases. According to the Muslim faith, a person becomes a believer in one God only if he embraces Islam otherwise he is a non-believer even when he holds a strong and sincere faith in God. According to this philosophy there must be two Gods, one for the Muslims and the other for the non-Muslims. This fact will be explained later. Here the purpose of stating this is that even with the same of similar rituals faith existing in Sikhism as in other religions, they cannot be made as a basis for concluding that Sikhism has been founded by taking good points both from Hinduism and Islam. It is a fundamentally new approach to the religion.
After this rather long introduction, I would like to state some fundamental beliefs of Sikhism.
*God*
Each faith of a sect has a name given to the Creator, the Almighty i.e. God, Father Allah, Ram, Gobind, Krishan ect. But any and every name for the Supreme power is accepted in Sikhism. The Adi Granth (uniquely the ever-existing Shabad Guru, not just a religion book) which enunciates the fundamentals of the Sikh faith contains all these and more names of God. It is emphatically asserted that Ram (God of Hindus) and Rahim (God of Muslims) is the same Power/Authority. According to the Adi Granth, therefore, there cannot be two religions, Puran (Hindus) and Quran (Islam) but only one religion, as there is only one God for the whole humanity. In addition to Ram, Rahim and Puram Quran, some more corresponding terms of the two religions have been so used as to depict a very close association between them through their similar rhythm. For example, "Baid" (Veda) and "Ktaib," the former meaning all Indian religious books and the latter meaning all books of the Western faith (Quran, Bible, Toroth Zachariah).
According to Sikhism there is no particular place specifically reserved and furnished for the abode of God like "Puri", seventh sky, ect. He lives in every one's, heart, black of white, eastern or western, low caste or high caste, good or bad, rich or poor.
The Adi Granth not only describes the existence of the all prevailing God, but it offers strong proof of the same. If more than one person independently observes a particular fact, it is regarded as a reality. There are many authors (out of which only 7 in addition to Nanak have been referred to later in this article) who belonged to different places, practiced different methods of worship, were born in different castes, suffered socially low status or enjoyed very high respects in the society but made the same observation "God lives in everybody, you love man if you want to love God."
*Sikhism defined*
The faith Guru Nanak possessed, preached and initiated humanity into, is that there is only one God, the whole universe is just a manifestation of it and he is therefore, everywhere and in every soul. That is why, Guru Nanak decried the divisions of humanity on any basis, religion, caste or color.
His first lesson, was "Neither there is any Hindu nor a Muslim" implying thereby that there cannot be two or more religions, there is only one God hence there can be only one religion. Though, born in a Hindu Khatri family, he refused to wear the sacred thread and he had no hesitation to go to a mosque for prayers because the God he 'saw' was not imprisoned in a temple. This shook the whole society. He went to Mecca (a place of Muslim worship) and Hardwar (a place of Hindu worship) to preach the same truth-give up the distinction of being a Hindu or a Muslim-all of us are human beings, we have no other religion than that.
He also demolished all the dividing walls of the four Varan-Ashrams in Hindu society. Brahmin and Sudra were not different. Birth in Brahmin family, does not make a person of higher, spiritual merit and being a Sudra does not deprive him of it.
He did not stop here. He challenged the status of Sanskrit as the language of gods and the elite. Sanskrit, he asserted, is no more sacred than Persian of any other language. He preached, that language of God is love, every human being can express it in Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Persian, Bengali, Gujrati, English or any other he knows. The people who believed that Sanskrit is the language of gods or Arabic is the language of Allah, found it difficult to agree with Nanak but the 'love' for all won him the place of honor and respect from all places of worship, both Hindu and Muslim.
*Practising Sikhism*
Was this all, the Guru did? No. He not only described this new faith, but also explained it and practiced it. To inculcate the feeling of oneness, he made all the people sit together as Sangat (a group of comrades). A Sudra and a Brahmin, a king and a beggar, a Muslim and a Hindu, all would sit together in a Sangat and sing the praise of the same God. When Guru Nanak expired people did not know, to which faith he belonged. Both Hindus and Muslims loved him, respected him and accepted him as their Guru but he was neither a Hindu nor a Muslim. He laid firm foundations of the new faith, the followers of which were known as students (Shish or Sikh) of truth. Having failed to label him as a Muslim or a Hindu, both raised memorials at the same place (Kartarpur on the right bank of the Ravi where he breathed his last) in his honour.
Was he dead? No; he is living even today. A unique principle he preached was, that not his body but the Words-"Shabad" said by him, are to be valued and respected as living Guru. His words (Gurbani, Adi Granth) are with us and would ever be. Therefore, he would continue to guide humanity to the right path as long as it cares to understand him and follow his teachings.
The first lesson of "Sangat" was followed by the second lesson of "Pangat"-eating together. As this would finish the caste barriers of the Hindu faith, high caste people complained against this "anti-Dharam" activity of the Guru (3rd Nanak) to the king Akbar who rejected their petition when he was told details of the Sikh faith by Bhai Jetha ji (later on 4th Nanak).
" Baoli"-a common source of water and "Sarovar" (Amritsar) the sacred bathing tank, were the next practical steps for totally removing the sectarian or narrow communal feelings from the minds of the people. All this was crowned by welcoming Mian Mir, a Muslim by name and rituals but a Sikh by faith, to lay the foundation stone of the world famous Sikh Shrine, The Golden Temple, in the center of the Amrit Sarovar, now in the city named Amritsar in Punjab, India.
Another big step was taken by the fifth Nanak, who compiled the Adi Granth to be placed in the Golden Temple. It contained the writings of not only of the Gurus but also of many other persons who 'saw' the God living everywhere and in everyone, high and low, rich and poor. The first Nanak during his travels in India and abroad had collected their writings i.e. 'bani' or "shabad".
Why did the fifth Nanak do so? Why did he bring them at par with the Gurus? Were the writings of the Gurus not sufficient to give the guidelines of the faith preached by them? Inclusion of the writings of the persons was deliberate and had a deeper significance. It was to give a proof that anyone with any 'faith,' any caste, any place, who sincerely worships Him, will realize Him and find Him in ever heart. through this unique step, it was declared and preached that it is absurd to say that there is only one particular name of the God and there is only one particular method of worship to realize Him of find Him and reach Him. It was to be taught emphatically to all that any name and say method is right if there is sincerity behind the action and it is wrapped in pious love. The experiences of those seekers who "found" Him, were recorded for eternity in the Adi Granth. It must be taken not of that these persons were born in different religions, were of different castes and adopted different rituals but realized (experienced) the existence of the same God everywhere and in everyone. Here is what, a few of them whose writings are included in the Adi Granth, have said:
1. Rama Nanda was a Gaur Brahmin, Vaishanava. When he perceived the existence of the God in all and everywhere, he questioned the validity of outward rituals and announced "I need go nowhere. I have realized that all pervading god in my own heart as well" [Page 1195]
2. Kabir who was never weaver and brought up under Muslim environment spoke the same thing "God has created all beings from the same source and He Himself is existing in all of them and everywhere" [Page 1349]
3. Namdev was Maharashtrian calico-printer. Through sincere devotion he too reached the same stage of spiritual attainment-"In every body, there is the same God who speaks. Who else than God can be there to speak in every person?" [Page 988 ]
4. Sheikh Farid a Muslim who followed all Mohammedan rituals advises us: "If you want to love God, do not injure the feelings of any-one because He resides in everybody"[Page 1384 ]
5. Bhikhan another Muslim devotee also came to the same conclusion and said "Wherever I see, It is He Who is there" [page 659 ]
6. Ravidass : a cobbler, Sudra by caste, when he attained the stage of God-realization, even the Brahmins fell at his feet. He also came to the same conclusion "There is no second or third, it is the same God Himself everywhere" [Page 345 ]
7. Pipa a Raja and a disciple of Rama Nand has his own way of expressing the same feelings. "The God which prevails in the whole universe also resides in my own heart too. Anyone who search Him will find Him." [Page 695 ]
According to the Adi Granth, therefore there is one God and one humanity, hence only one religion. The Creator can be given any name-Allah, Ram, Gobind, Wahe-Guru, Hari, Krishan, God. Followers of this faith as stated earlier go the popular name, Shish (Sikh) which means a student (a disciple) of spirituality, Sikhism, therefore, is not communal in the narrow sense like some other religions and can be named as Humanism.
Some persons preach the philosophy that all religions are good. No, this is not acceptable to a Sikh. He would not accept any religion to be good if it believes a person to be low or high because of his birth. The distinction of being a Brahmin or Sudra by birth is against the basic tenets of Sikh faith. A man is as he behaves and not as he is born. Any one who loves Brahma (God) is a Brahmin even if he was born in any of the so called low-castes. Any faith which divides humanity on any basis, colour, caste or religion cannot be agreed to be a good religion.
Another fact which distinguishes it fundamentally from other religions is that they claim that their founders were specially sent by God' as Avtar/Prophet or His son. A follower of these must observe all the rituals prescribed by that guide and must utter a particular word, only then the prophet (the Avtar) will help him to obtain salvation. Sikhism is basically opposite to it. It simply tells ANYONE who loves human beings irrespective to their faith, (Hindu, Muslim, or Christian) birth (caste), social status, education (learned pandit or illiterate) and remembers Him with sincere mind would attain salvation/realize God. Sikhism does not make it obligatory for a devotee to accept a particular prophet to have been sent by God to save him and take his sins on himself.
By now, the reader would appreciate the ideas that Sikhism is not just another faith like so many other faiths. It is a catholic faith for the whole humanity. Anyone who studies Adi Granth in depth, will reach, this conclusion. H.L. Bradshaw has thus highlighted this unique aspect of the new faith:
"Sikhism is a Universal world faith-with a message for all men. This is amply illustrated in the writings of the Gurus. Sikhs must cease to think of their Faith as "just another good religion" and must begin to think in terms of SIKHISM being the religion for this New Age....... The religion preached by Guru Nanak is the faith of the New Age. It completely supplants and fulfills all the former dispensations or older religions. Books must be written proving this. THE OTHER RELIGIONS CONTAIN TRUTH BUT SIKHISM CONTAINS THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH........"
Bradshaw has found many more valuable things in the Guru Granth Sahib. he continues "Guru Granth Sahib of all the world religious scriptures were all concerned only with this world and its spiritual counterpart. To imply that they spoke of other worlds as does the Guru Granth Sahib, is to stretch their obvious meanings out of context. The Sikh religion is truly the answer to the problems of Modern Man."
*Who is a Sikh?*
A Sikh is not he who knows all about the principles and philosophy of Sikhism, and can scholarly explain it and effectively preach it. To be a Sikh, is to act according to his faith which may mean sacrificing all the comforts, wealth and even one's life. After giving the philosophy of the faith, the 10th Nanak wanted volunteers who would accept the faith in toto i.e. not just believe in it but live up to it. The first five who offered their lives for it, were initiated into it, and called Panj Piaras-The Five Beloved Ones. Others followed them and were collectively designated as the Khalsa. The responsibility given to them, in today's terminology, would be Honorary Army of the United Nations for the rule of Truth and love for the whole humanity. Five symbols ("Kachah", a special type of underwear; "Kara", wrist iron ring; "Kirpan," sword; "Kesh," un-cut hair; "Kanga," comb) were given to them for having been initiated into this army.
The history is filled with numerous examples, when the Sikhs gladly underwent un-told sufferings and sacrificed themselves just to uphold the principles that all humanity is one. They would help the poor and even die for them irrespective of their religion, or caste (because the Sikhs believed that God lived in their hearts too). Guru Teg Bahadur did not offer his head because the Hindu Dharm was in danger because a tyrant was making innocent people suffer an inhuman oppression. He would have done the same thing if a Hindu king had committed atrocities on the Muslims. Did not Guru Nanak sympathize with the innocent Muslim Pathans who suffered when Mughal King Babar attacked Punjab? Did not Guru Gobind Singh help Bahadur Shah, son (the rightful heir of Delhi Kingdom) of Aurangzeb against his younger son who tried to get the kingdom by force. One can understand the greatness of Guru Gobind Singh only if he remembers that Aurangzeb killed not only his father, his sons but also his large number of Sikhs. The Guru still struck to his principles-Help those who are in need of it and deserve it.
Now to conclude, it can be said safely, without any fear of contradiction that Guru Nanak laid the foundation of a non-sectarian, universal faith for the whole humanity, not just another religion. Unfortunately, those who claim to follow it, have mis-understood it and describe it only as modern religion or at the most a happy blend of what is good in Hinduism and Islam. Further it has been limited to the rituals of doing or not doing something and eating or not eating certain foods. it is limited sometimes to the identity (5 K's) given to the followers which is to express their conviction in the faith and not faith itself. Sikhism cannot be confined to these narrow bounds. It is not just a new religion; it is a way of life for the new man-the man who believes all men are brethren and children of the same God and its mission is to work for the welfare of all and when the occasion demands to sacrifice his all for this ideal.​


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## xtracx (Nov 19, 2006)

Hi all,

         I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!

         Despite whatever religion anyone believes in...do they all lead to GOD? I mean, why shouldnt i believe in christianity? WHen that religion makes up the bulk of our world's population? I am just troubled with this...sigh...

         If anyone can help me...i would really appreciate it:8-

Thank you


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*

hi, i don't know if this will help but i feel that religion is just a culture. most religions are associated with a specific culture. believing in GOD for me is not a religion, it is just my own faith. i feel i was born into sikhi, and sikhi has some views attached to it, it doesn't matter what religion you are, the fact that YOU believe in God makes you and all others part of the same faith and your faith IN God is what will lead you to God, not you being christain, sikh, muslim, or etc. Being of a certain religion is not what will lead you to God, but you yourself will.


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## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



> Despite whatever religion anyone believes in...do they all lead to GOD?



no all religion does not lead you to god .if a religion teaches you to hate others do voilence how could that religion lead to you  god. areligion that teaches human beings to be a good person,remember god,respect others
could take us to god.fortunately sikhism has all this



> I mean, why shouldnt i believe in christianity? WHen that religion makes up the bulk of our world's population? I am just troubled with this...sigh...



the reason of the high population of the christianity and islam is because 
both of them are missionary religion.by hook or crook they beleive in religious conversions.many people were forcibly converted to those religion.sikhism teaches us to respect others and sikhs doesn't beleive in forcible conversions
the above point of your is just like that majority of people are corrupt then why should i be an honest person.

                            kanwardeep singh


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## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur?princess? said:


> hi, i don't know if this will help but i feel that religion is just a culture. most religions are associated with a specific culture. believing in GOD for me is not a religion, it is just my own faith. i feel i was born into sikhi, and sikhi has some views attached to it, it doesn't matter what religion you are, the fact that YOU believe in God makes you and all others part of the same faith and your faith IN God is what will lead you to God, not you being christain, sikh, muslim, or etc. Being of a certain religion is not what will lead you to God, but you yourself will.



 religion is not culture.religion is just a path that takes you to god and make you a good person.if you have knowledge of india then you know that 
culturly north indian hindu's are much more different than south indian hindu's
and are quite close to north indian muslims.similarly bangladeshi muslims are closer in culture to bengali hindu's.so cul;ture and religion are two different things.


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*

No religion teaches violence, it's the people who do. there are some fundamental sikhs who would become violent when it comes to religion, you can not blame the religion itself for that or the many people who follow that religion. why at times are there violent acts at gurdwaras? i agree with kds1980 that religion and culture are two separate things but that is all about perception.  i preceive different religions as culture. why do people of different religions celebrate different holidays? religion itself is belief in GOD nothing more than that.. for me at least. it's true that some religions might say if your not their religion you will go to hell and other religions saying the same thing... then does that mean everyone will go to hell? sikhism mentions nothing like that.. but then again sikhism is a mixture of islam and hinduism and Guru Nanak looked at both religions carefully to form a religion that would unite the two. All the fundamental ideas of the other religions were dropped and sikhism was formed. It's not just about the fact that sikhism is not that old, but also the conditions in which it was formed. Considering yourself a sikh will not lead you to God... i repeat.. it's YOU who will.  There are many who call themselves sikh and are in no way doing things that will lead them to God same goes for other religions.


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## kaur-1 (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur?princess? said:


> but then again sikhism is a mixture of islam and hinduism and Guru Nanak looked at both religions carefully to form a religion that would unite the two. All the fundamental ideas of the other religions were dropped and sikhism was formed.



Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

That somehow does not sound correct.


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## kaur-1 (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



xtracx said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!
> 
> ...



I am sorry to hear that you are troubled. Dont you realise that you are very fortuante to be born into a Sikh family. 

Please try and read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji , read some wonderful articles and discussions on Sikhi on this site.

There will be hardwork and effort on your part but at the end of the day its really up to.

Read this wondeful article :http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=47745

Pray to waheguroo for guidance and that you may reserve Gurmat Naam.


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## navroopsingh (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*

Sikhi is a religion completely independant. It is not a part of Hinduism or Islam. If anything Guru Nanak preached to the muslims HOW to be good muslims and likewise to the Hindu's. The "major" religions as they so put it are nothing more than businesses nowadays. Christianity and Islam together form about 2 billion of the worlds population. Sikhism does not want people to be forced to convert. As kaur-1 said, read some of the articles and essays around and you will forever cherish the fact that you were born into a Sikhi family!


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur-1 said:


> Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> That somehow does not sound correct.




Yes, I'm sorry for that. I did not mean it the way it came out.. i just meant in the part that there are a lot of similarities b/w them and sikhism was in a way formed to unite all religions.


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## navroopsingh (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur?princess? said:


> Yes, I'm sorry for that. I did not mean it the way it came out.. i just meant in the part that there are a lot of similarities b/w them and sikhism was in a way formed to unite all religions.


 
It seems to me that this too may have come out incorrectly. I dont see how Sikhi was formed to unite religions. guru Nanak said that he didnt want people to be forced to convert but rather told them how to follow their religion properly. Such as rituals, idol worshipping, and pilgrimages. But they did say that all people should love one another regardless of caste, colour, sex, or religion because we are all God's creation and he is in all. 

If it was formed to "unite" all religions in the sense to form them into one, and you can show me how through either quotation or debate i am honestly sorry for my misunderstanding to why sikhism was created.


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



navroopsingh said:


> It seems to me that this too may have come out incorrectly. I dont see how Sikhi was formed to unite religions.



I don't know if I'm saying something wrong but the people here take everything so deep.... i mean sorry if i'm not so good at english or something that whatever i'm saying is being analyzed so wrong... and i do believe sikhi was formed NOT JUST to unite religions but for many other causes... and when i say to unite... i don't mean oh somewhere in the Guru Granth Sahib it has what i just wrote exactly in there and/or it says what i said on some random site... just like you people are writing your views and facts.. i'm writing my "views." and when it comes to views there's no right or wrong.... i'm not here quoting someone and writing the wrong quote. i'm here saying what i feel.. maybe philosophizing... two major religions at that time were hinduism and islam and mayb even budhism, but then why would Guru Nanak want to form sikhism? Obviously to get rid of some differences... and that's what i meant by Unite... if you think about it... who are sikhs.. what are they like? we cover our heads and bodies.. what other religion does that? islam. we are not really fundamentals.. although there are some.... who are we like in those terms? maybe somewhat like hindus? did you ever think about the dome shape of gurdwaras? if you've seen masjids you would see a similar architecture. who has beards? sikhs and muslims.. sorry i can't really come up with similarities between hindus and sikhs.. but mayb you can do that yourself.. and see what i truly was trying to say... not quoting anyone... and i haven't researched this topic for decades... so forgive any mistakes, and misunderstandings... and if you research into it.. mayb you can come up with a better explanation.


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## mrClen (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur?princess? said:


> No religion teaches violence, it's the people who do. there are some fundamental sikhs who would become violent when it comes to religion, you can not blame the religion itself for that or the many people who follow that religion. why at times are there violent acts at gurdwaras? i agree with kds1980 that religion and culture are two separate things but that is all about perception. i preceive different religions as culture. why do people of different religions celebrate different holidays? religion itself is belief in GOD nothing more than that.. for me at least. it's true that some religions might say if your not their religion you will go to hell and other religions saying the same thing... then does that mean everyone will go to hell? sikhism mentions nothing like that.. but then again sikhism is a mixture of islam and hinduism and Guru Nanak looked at both religions carefully to form a religion that would unite the two. All the fundamental ideas of the other religions were dropped and sikhism was formed. It's not just about the fact that sikhism is not that old, but also the conditions in which it was formed. Considering yourself a sikh will not lead you to God... i repeat.. it's YOU who will. There are many who call themselves sikh and are in no way doing things that will lead them to God same goes for other religions.


 i agree too:advocate:

[Mod note: Its advertisement in disguise!]


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## kds1980 (Nov 20, 2006)

> No religion teaches violence, it's the people who do



kaur?this is myth that no religion teaches voilence.there are some sects of islam like wahabi which preaches voilence against other humans.tell me why no other religion except wahabi islam is not allowed in saudi arabia.why the population of non muslims in pakistan has come down from 20% during partition to 3% .


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 21, 2006)

kds1980 said:


> kaur?this is myth that no religion teaches voilence.there are some sects of islam like wahabi which preaches voilence against other humans.tell me why no other religion except wahabi islam is not allowed in saudi arabia.why the population of non muslims in pakistan has come down from 20% during partition to 3% .



dear kds1980, 
look.. i'm not trying to bring muslims into anything.. because for some reason they always seem to enrage some people.. wahabi you said? sorry never heard of it... the only place i saw something about it was in wikipedia.. and i'm sure you know how accurate that is.. well you see if you can come with a religon that i can actually find out about.. i wouldn't mind debating with you.. but if i get some fundamental sikhs together and tell them to go convert people.. perhaps using some force.. we could probably start our own little religion and refer back to Shri Guru Granth Sahib like these wahabians.. or whatever they are .. and still refer to ourselves as sikh as they refer to themselves as muslims.. but also have a little nickname for our own little club...  if someone will want to use us as an example of a religion teaching violence.. mayb lets say 300 years later... i really hope you won't agree to it as a justification for a religion that teaches violence...if your still here. oh and i take that back.. i don't wana debate.. don't really know how.. and i don't think i really like "arguing".. another word for debating i guess.


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



Shernee said:


> *This does not sound right again*.!! Why dont you first read about Sikh Guru history first. Concentrate also on the "reign of terror" by the moguls ie Muslims.



You like giving advice, I like taking it. But... i really don't like concentrating on one thing too much.. it makes you narrow minded.. you see? Probably not.. but i'm SEEING it. I never said what i'm saying is right.. maybe you should concentrate on that.


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## Veeru (Nov 22, 2006)

xtracx said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!
> 
> ...


 
Nobody can say for sure whether or not you will find God following any religion. But one thing for sure, if we don't know, we haven't found God and when we do find God, we will know for sure...


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 22, 2006)

PCJS said:


> Nobody can say for sure whether or not you will find God following any religion. But one thing for sure, if we don't know, we haven't found God and when we do find God, we will know for sure...



Beautifully said PCJS


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 22, 2006)

How can one find or lose THE ONE who is OMNIPRESENT? 

By not looking towards Sikhi via our dogmatic blinders but through pragamtic vision given to us  in the name of SHABAD VICHAR.

Tejwant


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## adeep646 (Nov 26, 2006)

WKWF 
yes it is the Hukam of the Satguru that we Vichar the Shabad. hmmm... 5 Shabad, Anhad Bani, Toor, Namm, Sej Dun could this be what the Guru is refering to? Please Read the Anand Sahib Ramkali M3: "Nam jin ke MAnn Vasia Vaje Shabad Ganere".(and every page in the SGGS) This is the Priceless Gift of this Age. what is the gurus hukam? the guru said "Bin Nave Kine Na Paya Deko Ride Bichar". therefore you are not free from "Hell"(life and death) until you have been blessed to hear Waheguru, to be in his Lotus Feet.

"Raj Na Chao Mukt na Chao Mann Prit Charan Kamalare"


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## chk1 (Nov 28, 2006)

Do all religions lead to God?

I'll agree with those who have replied to you and said "yes that is the aim", it's true that religions were created with the higher aim of "reaching the supreme", whether we call him/her by Waheguru, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah etc etc. Religions just have different ways of reaching the Supreme. My wonderful grandmother had a wonderful way of putting it, she used to say "We are all children of the same God, we have just been put into different classes...some are muslims and attend the mosque, some are sikh and go to the gurdwara, some are hindu and go to the mandhir, but we are all the same...just learning in different classes"

I too, like you have been blessed by being born into a sikh family, and although my beliefs now are slightly different to my family's, does not make me value God any less than if i were to remain a Sikh. I chose the path i have because i felt, in my heart it was right FOR ME.

God is everywhere... one does not necessarily _need _to follow a religion in order to find God, as God is inside each and every one of us, we are all connected regardless of caste, colour, creed, religion simpy because our souls are part of God. The path to God? There are 1000's of paths to God, and no single path is the one "true" path to God as the paths are different but not better than each other. 

I have read through the posts, and it struck me how some more than others in different ways are incredibly passionate about Sikhi, and that is definately a good thing, but i have the impression that they see Sikhi as a "better" religion. These are all opinions of one another, and we need to respect each others beliefs (instead of putting down others eg. Muslims).
Before you all think im "Pro-Muslim" or something you need to remember that we are all indiviuals and we find different paths to the divine.

Some paths may appear as violent, as "wrong" because some aspects preach violence and therefore they are "bad", other paths may appear as simply perfect and the best path... the one path true to our heart will be "perfect" for us... *What works for one may not necessarily work for another.*

However, going back to the original post: God is everywhere, the divine is all around us, within us, within nature, God is the vibration in the air, the energy, the light, the wind, simply put EVERYTHING. To find that connection with God, i believe it will happen when it is meant to, you will find that path be it Sikhism, Christianity, whatever it is and you will feel that beautiful connection with the divine and the way you will KNOW this path is true to you, because your HEART will tell you is the path for YOU. Like i said above *"What works for you will not necessarily work for someone else".* I would advise that maybe you search around, read scriptures, read articles, essays, go to the Gurdwara, whatever feels best for you and slowly but surely... It will all fall into place. Be happy


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 29, 2006)

each one has a unique path to the ONE....


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## H.t. (Dec 6, 2006)

chk1 said:


> Do all religions lead to God?
> 
> I'll agree with those who have replied to you and said "yes that is the aim", it's true that religions were created with the higher aim of "reaching the supreme", whether we call him/her by Waheguru, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah etc etc. Religions just have different ways of reaching the Supreme. My wonderful grandmother had a wonderful way of putting it, she used to say "We are all children of the same God, we have just been put into different classes...some are muslims and attend the mosque, some are sikh and go to the gurdwara, some are hindu and go to the mandhir, but we are all the same...just learning in different classes"


  If were are all just in different classes under the same Headmaster, Why then do some beliefs (especially cosmoganies) differ from "class" to "class"

Seeking after God
H.t.​


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## H.t. (Dec 6, 2006)

xtracx said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!
> 
> ...


 
Not all religions lead to God, simply because they're not all trying.
Buddhist have no God, just the universe.
Muslims also call their God "the Deceiver." Both Sikhs (i think) and Christians would agree that the Cause of Causes would not putrify Himself/Herself with lies. If God _were_ to lie, we could trust nothing He/She said through the revelation of His/Her messengers.
Most antient religions have many gods (each hardly more than a Superman) this is in contradition with the belief that there is one Cause of Causes.
  Also, I would like to state that truth is not relative; we can't decide on what is *accurate* by polling people. I am Christian, but I would like to discourage you from comverting to Christianity because "everyone's doing it."
  Salvation in Jesus is open to all, but you should come because you believe not because it's popular.
  If you would like to discuss converting to Christianity, please PM me.
  [i don't mean to offend anyone by talking about my own religion, but as you know, Christians are commanded to reach out of others.]
Seeking after God
H.t.​


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 6, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and xtracx Jee!

Quote "I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!"
This is a good sign. Your wish to know truth is growing. Please come to know true Simran. Do not waste more time with them whose promises do not bring results. 
Many ways guide how to wear symbols of a religion. Those do not help. It does not matter, how often one changes these symbols. 

Quote "I mean, why shouldnt i believe in christianity?"
I am not sure if this is the way.

Quote "WHen that religion makes up the bulk of our world's population?"
For me this is the sign of missing God. No one can accompany a person on his inner journey toward God than his Shabad Guru.


Balbir Singh


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## KweurSeek (Dec 9, 2006)

Sat Shri Akal. 

I think that a lot of people have that question of which religion is right for them. I feel that everything happens for a reason and it also happens under God's watchful eyes. Since you were born into a Sikh family (i am assuming, since you haven't mentioned specifically), I think that would be a place to start exploring a path to God.

I personally feel that Sikhi is better than Christianity and Islam. That is because of the authenticity of our scriptures. They were actually written by our Gurus.  

A lot of the Christian scriptures have been interpreted and changed around for 2000 years now. That really turns me off the religion. Look at all the various little sects that religion has broken into! Furthermore, Islam has these 'hadiths', or teachings of Mohammed outside Quran, that are used (and often misinterpreted) to make statements (what I mean is that teachings outside the Quran are used to validate points of views).

Sikhi is simple. Remember God. Pray. Serve all. Amongst many other messages. There are no rituals (although unfortunately some of them have been invented by the Sikhs) etc that can make the teachings questionable. 

Of course, I find that there are some shortcomings too. For example, SGGS does not specifically mention the 5 k's. Furthermore, the dasam granth's authenticity has been questioned as some sections are believed not to be the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I personally believe that SGGS does an adequate job of calming my restlessness and giving me direction in life.

Sikhi requires hardwork. I have recently turned 20 and I reflected on life and some of the lessons I have learned as a teenager. I think the biggest lesson was that you have to work for something. The language used in SGGS is exquisite but not always easy to understand. So you will need help with that. 

Christianity is so large because of the forced conversions done under colonialism and even the missionary work done right now. I do feel that Jesus was a prophet who came to Earth with a message of love for others. But I think that message has been lost with time and there are so many other implications that came over instead of it. Christians are more worried about spreading their philosophy rather than practicing it.

So it all boils down to starting with what you have. And if you are really not satisfied then exploring other options? It really shouldn't come to that as Sikhi is indeed a unique religion with a much more understandable and practical philosophy.

Good Luck

p.s - I hope I haven't offended anyone. I do respect my Christian and Muslim friends. However, personally I don't see them fit for myself!


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## muneet (Dec 21, 2006)

Hi
If you listen to Maskin ji over the ages man has grown up from a savage to a cultured being. His religious thoughts have evolved. A student of college doesnt need to learn tables and primers. 
Similarly Sikhi is the most modern thought with least rites rituals and dogmas and it is the religion of this age. 
Older eligions are obscure and steeped in misrepresented interpretations. Sikhi is like having the mother lode and genuine instruction since it is simple to follow and easy to understand. 
Today the salvation is from Naam Japna- nothing else will save us. Even Vedanta is coming around to this- that is why you have so many hindu gurus on TV. Christianity is a religion of the majority. But where grass grows abundantly, roses are very few!! Good things are rare. What is the death knell for Christianity is the non belief in rebirth, karma and other wrong beliefs which have crept in. Ultimately all roads will lead to God - no doubt but would you take one that is obscure and doubtful or one which is assured!!


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## Lionchild (Dec 21, 2006)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



navroopsingh said:


> Sikhi is a religion completely independant. It is not a part of Hinduism or Islam. If anything Guru Nanak preached to the muslims HOW to be good muslims and likewise to the Hindu's. The "major" religions as they so put it are nothing more than businesses nowadays. Christianity and Islam together form about 2 billion of the worlds population. Sikhism does not want people to be forced to convert. As kaur-1 said, read some of the articles and essays around and you will forever cherish the fact that you were born into a Sikhi family!



Well that's true to some degree, practice what yuo preach. However, we need to spread into other areas of the world and have more diversity. In other words, preach what you practice. And you don't have to force anyone into it, i myself was showed a glimpse of sikhi, and i was interested in a path - we should spread sikhi to those who are interested.


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## navroopsingh (Dec 28, 2006)

Yeah that is the sad thing about Sikhism. We've fully isolated our religion from the rest of the world, this resulting in minidentification and the path of the Guru slowly being hidden. What we should do is at least preach what was written by the Guru's and not try to convert anyone or anything as veer ji said. When the guru's said that sikhism shouldnt be spread or focus on converting they probably meant in the methods of Islam(by the sword) or christianity(as a business). Rather we should show them the values and they can decide for themselves. We truly need to get out there!


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 6, 2007)

xtracx ji,

Think of Sikh Religion as the latest and perhaps the last update to the Program of Maya - Life cycle -"The Virus of Kalyug". To survive this is the most essential update. It is sikh phillosophy that alone shall take you beyond BRAHAM (The Clutches of Nature).

Have faith in your religion.


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## Perdip (Jan 8, 2007)

xtracx said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!
> 
> ...


 
Welcome to the journey of self discovery and Truth. Whenever one is progressing spritually it may seem as though you are in a state of confusion, anxiety, trouble and frustration. This may simply be a way of your mind, heart and soul grasping the Truth as it can only be understood by Grace of God by whatever means He has. Study all religions, but take it step by step. Sikh simply means to become a disciple, student and to learn and gain as much knowledge as possible to equip you with the correct tools to achieve salvation with your Lord. Try to grasp the Truth and the basic beliefs of all religions and concentrate on these rather than getting too involved in any one particular religion to the point that one becomes an extremist. All religions are True but have been subject to human manipulation. Follow the ten commandments as said by Jesus (AS). Offer selfless service to the holy congregation (sangat) and chant God's name, whether it by Allah, Ishwar, Ohm or Vaheguru, all are beautiful names of God. Sit in the sangat and remeber God. Pray to God asking for Him to guide you, show you the Truth, to feel the Truth, live the Truth, speak the Truth and to be engrossed in the Truth. Ask God to gift you with the understanding of the Truth and to keep you the footdust of the saints. Whatever the Guru's have said in the GGS can only be achieved by some rare one (nectar of God's Name), and we should search for the Sant, Bhagt, Pandit, Brahm Giani who has obtained salvation during this life time and sit in their company/sangat and the God's blessings that are showered on them will also shower on you. You may wish to try praying five times a day as prophet Muhammed instructed as this will help you remember God throughout the day until you have achieved the fourth status as mentioned by Guru Ji. Read the Sukhmani Sahib in English (I have a spare new copy if you want it). Read the Quran and anything that believes in One God but do not take anything your read literally but ask God and Guru Ji to help you understand its meaning and put into practice in your everyday life. After studying each religion, see what apeals to you most. You will know when you are making progress as you will feel the result of your actions and research bringing you closer to God, if not, then you will need to question whether what you are doing is correct? Don't forget, whatever you do, it must be only be to please God and do not associate anyone or other being in your worship with God, He is One and the Only. Do not reject any faith or path but ask God to guide you and for you to meet with those who will help you remeber Him. Be kind to God's creation, learn to accept everything as it is and even if something bad happens, understand this as God's Will. The most important act of all is the simplest yet the most challenging... reciting Gods name as much as possible, with every breath, heart beat, second that passes by. Jesus said speak to your Lord as  a Friend as He is the best of Friends. Muhammed PBUH said the dhikr (remeberance of Allah) is the highest act of worship. All those mentioned in the GGS have said the same. Krishna said sing the Name of God (Hare Krishna Hare krishna Hare Hare Krishna Kirishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Hare Hare Rama Rama Hare Hare) Hare being Gods Name and saying Krishna and Rama name you will be invoking them and they will help you be closer to God and remove obstacles that may come in the way, the same with invoking any Guru, Peer or prophet and they will also pray for you and help Guide you if God wills. Feel free to ask any direct questions you may have and I will help research for you if God hasn't given me the knowledge already. Good luck and Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji ke Phateh.... Jo Bhole So Nihaaaal, Sat Sri Akaal (True is the Lord and whoever remebers Him). Salaam:idea:


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## kaur-1 (Jan 8, 2007)

xtracx said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!
> 
> ...




  Vaar 1 Pauri 23 Coming of the Guru

 suxI pukwr dwqwr pRB gur nwnk jg mwihM pTwXw]
* sunee pukaar dhaathaar prabh gur naanak jag maahin pathaayaa||*
 The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.

 crn Doie rihrws kr crnwimRq is`KW pIlwXw]
* charan dhhoe rehiraas kar charanaamrith skhiaan peelaayaa||*
 He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.

 pwrbRhm pUrn bRhm kiljug AMdr iek idKwXw]
* paarabreham pooran breham kalijug andhar eik dhikhaayaa||*
 He preached in this darkage (kaliyug) that, saragun (Brahm) and nirgun (Parbrahm) are the same and identical.

 cwrY pYr DrMm dy cwr vrn iek vrn krwXw]
* chaarai pair dhharanm dhae chaar varan eik varan karaayaa||*
 Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).

 rwxw rMk brwbrI pYrIN pvxw jg vrqwXw]
* raanaa rank baraabaree paireen pavanaa jag varathaayaa||*
 Equating the poor with the prince, he spread the etiquette of humbly touching the feet.

 aultw Kyl iprMm dw pYrW aupr sIs invwXw]
* oulattaa khael piranm dhaa pairaan oupar sees nivaayaa||*
 Inverse is the game of the beloved; he got the egotist high heads bowed to feet.

 kiljug bwby qwirAw s`qnwm pVH mMqR suxwXw]
* kalijug baabae thaariaa saathanaam parrh manthr sunaayaa||*
 Baba Nanak rescued this dark age (kaliyug) and recited ‘satinam’ mantr for one and all.

 kil qwrx gur nwnk AwXw ]òó]
* kal thaaran gur naanak aayaa ||aa||*
* Guru Nanak came to redeem the kaliyug.*




The problem with some Sikh youths (and some Sikh adults alike) is in taking the initiative to learn the divine truth in a priceless jewel - SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI

If you need answers, they are there in our GURU - Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. 

No one is going to spoon feed you. They might guide you nevertheless if you ask them. 

If you need help, then ask Waheguroo for help - *sincerely*.

*WE MUST HAVE COMPLETE FAITH IN SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI*.

*Start reading, learning and doing Gurbani Vichaar. Then you should start "LIVING" Gurbani Shabad. "Living" Gurbani is very crucial not just reading or doing Gurbani vichaar.*


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## Perdip (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur?princess? said:


> hi, i don't know if this will help but i feel that religion is just a culture. most religions are associated with a specific culture. believing in GOD for me is not a religion, it is just my own faith. i feel i was born into sikhi, and sikhi has some views attached to it, it doesn't matter what religion you are, the fact that YOU believe in God makes you and all others part of the same faith and your faith IN God is what will lead you to God, not you being christain, sikh, muslim, or etc. Being of a certain religion is not what will lead you to God, but you yourself will.


 
I totally agree with Princess Kaur. May God increase us all in faith.


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## k s gadh (Jan 9, 2007)

Dear Singh Sahib Ji.
Sat Sri Akaal,
All religions leads towards God.  As the God is one, the names ae different.  Some believes in Raam, Some in Allah , some in Bible and some in Waheguru.
No religion preaches violence, all religions says to love the human being and pray for peace.  All religions are equally good. If some one  having faith in Christanity, he can join it . If some one having faith in Raam, he may worship Raam. If some one having faith in Allah , he may become Muslim.
If in the World , majority of the people are Christians then it does not mean that all other religion people should start believeing in Christanity. We cannot compell others to join this or that religion.  It is all faith in the particular religion.
 Ksg.


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## Perdip (Jan 9, 2007)

If God does take you along the path of Christianity, please bear in mind that Jesus is *NOT* the son of God. The Holy Quran will tell you exactly why. Apart from this, may you prosper in faith and find God within. Read GGS translation on SIKHNET - Sikh Religion - Sikhism Information.


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## kaur-1 (Jan 9, 2007)

*
 We are ALL children of Waheguroo Satnam.*The answers are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Thats all we need!


_*http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...uru-granth-sahib-revealed-god-responding.html*_

Quote: "Through Gurbaani, the Shabad, the Divine Word, Vaheguru speaks to us. The Formless Vaheguru communicated to the world through speaking through the Ten bodies of Guru Nanak Sahib jee. Now the Formless communicates to us through the Written Divine Word. The Guru is the embodiment of Vaheguru Himself.

If we still have doubt whether Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is just a mere "Book", then Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee’s voice speaks to us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee and says:

ਪੋਥੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
_"The Divine Scripture (Sri Granth Sahib) is the meeting place where one can meet the Transcendent Lord God." _
_(Ang 1226)"

*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/14523-if-all-paths-equal-then-why.html*

_*Quote: "Sikhi is unique by the fact that it does not condemn others to Hell or say if you are not Sikh you are eternally damned. *Rather a Sikh prays at least twice daily for _"Sarbat Da Bhallaa"_, meaning the good and prosperity of all Humanity regardless of religion, belief or faith.







 ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਚੜਦੀ ਕਲਾ। ਤੇਰੇ. ਭਾਣੇ ਸਰਬੱਤ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ।
 _"May the Divine-Name preached by Nanak be exalted. May all prosper and be blessed within Your Will."
(Daily Sikh Ardaas)
_ 
*All faiths will get what they work towards.* Guru Nanak Sahib jee is the only True Guru who has preached Naam, and given Gurmat-Naam. Only Gurmat has a concept such as _Sach Khand_ and God-Realisation in such a clear way. Thus, Gurmat is the only path to _Sach Khand_, i.e. merging with God.                          "




*Now, isnt that wonderful to know. 

Its like having a priceless jewel in your lap given to you by Waheguroo in the form of Sri Guru Granth sahib ji but you are too blinded to see or acknowledge this and are looking elsewhere at .....*

--------------------
_
_


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## kds1980 (Jan 9, 2007)

Perdip said:


> If God does take you along the path of Christianity, please bear in mind that Jesus is *NOT* the son of God. The Holy Quran will tell you exactly why. Apart from this, may you prosper in faith and find God within. Read GGS translation on SIKHNET - Sikh Religion - Sikhism Information.


 
just like mohammed is the last prophet for muslims jesus is the only son of god for christians.


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## Perdip (Jan 10, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> just like mohammed is the last prophet for muslims jesus is the only son of god for christians.


 
Sat Sri Akaal KDS

I have not said this as something from myself. The contents of the Bible were changed by King Henry the Vlll and Christians also said Jesus is son of God. There is nothing wrong with Bible except for what has been changed in it and people saying Jesus is the Lord and worshiping Jesus as God and SGGS condemns any idol worhsipping. SGGS Ji and all therein tells us there is only One God and everything worships Him and His Name alone. It is easy to get sucked up into what people do and follow the crowd and the path of Truth is as difficult as walking on a two edged sword as quoted in SGGS. Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all in SGGS emphasises on how to attain God spiritually and within as wordly acts will not benefit anyone in anyway in regards to obtaining salvation with God.


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## Perdip (Jan 10, 2007)

kaur-1 said:


> *We are ALL children of Waheguroo Satnam.*The answers are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Thats all we need!
> 
> 
> _*http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...uru-granth-sahib-revealed-god-responding.html*_
> ...


 SGGS is Gods Mercy to all of humanity and for all faiths telling them to correct their ways. Knowledge is power and can be gained from variable sources. Only when one has been given the knowledge by God after being guided can s/he have fruitful conversation without being biased and prejudice, which would lose the essence of the subject itself.


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## devakumarc (Mar 8, 2007)

There is a Prakrit quotation on religion vattu sahavo dhammo. It means, dharma is the nature of all beings or substances. The dharma of water is to flow. If you stop its flow, you would face resistance. The dharma of fire is to burn and so on. The dharma of atma is to see and know. A true religion is one which dfacilitates the full expression of all beings in harmony.
Stated in simple terms, ahimsa is the best religion though difficult to practice. No religion of today is perfect and for that matter even in the past. The art of perfection lies in the domain of the individual but not in group or society.


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## simpy (Mar 8, 2007)

devakumarc said:


> There is a Prakrit quotation on religion vattu sahavo dhammo. It means, dharma is the nature of all beings or substances. The dharma of water is to flow. If you stop its flow, you would face resistance. The dharma of fire is to burn and so on. The dharma of atma is to see and know. A true religion is one which dfacilitates the full expression of all beings in harmony.
> Stated in simple terms, ahimsa is the best religion though difficult to practice. No religion of today is perfect and for that matter even in the past. The art of perfection lies in the domain of the individual but not in group or society.


 


*Respected Dev Ji,*


*if ahimsa is the best religion, think about what you breathe eat and drink- includes all living mater, isn't it.......*

*And perfection always comes with God's grace only. *





*forgive me please*


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## SSMDCX (Mar 8, 2007)

Ik Oankaar Sat Naam Satgur Parsaad
Dhan Dhan Paar Braham Parmesar
Guru Pyare Jee

Dandaut Parvaan Karna Ji Shukrana Parvaan Karna Ji

Isn't Only God Is Perfect. Everything Else Is Maya. Perfection Is Beyond Maya.

It Takes Bandgi Of Many Many Janams To Get The Gur Parsaad But It Takes Only A Moment To Loose Everything - Only Illusions Remain - As Whatever We See And Hear Under The Influence Of Maya Is Not True And Destroys Everything In A Moment - For Seeing And Hearing The Divine Truth, Which Is Beyond Maya Trihu Gun Tey Parey, You Have To Reach Beyond Maya Until Then Negative Criticism (nindya) Under The Influence Of Maya Kills Everything.

Dassan Dass


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## simpy (Mar 8, 2007)

SSMDCX said:


> Ik Oankaar Sat Naam Satgur Parsaad
> Dhan Dhan Paar Braham Parmesar
> Guru Pyare Jee
> 
> ...


 

*You are in Afghanistan, tell the Sadh Sangat how is it for a Sikh to survive in such an atmosphere. it will be really helpful information.*



*also want to add- Bandgi is also destroyed completely by forcing our belief on others, by threatening others, by misleading true seekers, by camouflaging-man hor mukh hor, by hiding the truth, by insulting the Religious faith and Scriptures, insulting the High Command-Waheguru, and all that………. And it takes even less than a moment, isn't it*










*forgive me please*


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 8, 2007)

Respected Devakumarc ji




> There is a Prakrit quotation on religion vattu sahavo dhammo. It means, dharma is the nature of all beings or substances. The dharma of water is to flow. If you stop its flow, you would face resistance. The dharma of fire is to burn and so on. The dharma of atma is to see and know. A true religion is one which facilitates the full expression of all beings in harmony.



It is also the dharma of the Atma to seek salvation. Your have come to the right door. Sikhism is the religion of this Yuga. The Kalyug. 





> Stated in simple terms, ahimsa is the best religion though difficult to practice.



By definition in the Encarta Dictionary Ahimsa – “not harming living things” the Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist philosophy of revering all life and refraining from harm to any living thing. Indeed it is a wonderful thought. It is only a concept that can never go into practice. From the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep and in sleep thereafter there are thousands of bacteria that are dying day and night to keep this body in service. Why because our body is the supreme life on earth. Even the Devtas are yearning to have a body in order to exit from the realm of Brahm to beyond Brahma (Par Braham)

“Is Dehi to T{censored} Dev” SGGS ji.

Ahimsa is a very dangerous notion to follow. It is akin to digging your own grave and not having the luxury to lie peacefully in it because by dying you will again be killing thousands and millions of microorganisms present in our body. So where do you stop the killing. Never dwell on this notion as it will lead you to nowhere but misery.




> No religion of today is perfect and for that matter even in the past.



It is not the fault of religion but of those who are practicing it or should I say pretending to practice it. We tend to use religion as a shroud to hide ourselves. The religion is guide and the burden of perfection falls on us as individuals.




> The art of perfection lies in the domain of the individual but not in group or society.



Yes, the art of perfection lies in the domain of the individual. In the past if one dwelled on the path of spirituality, one joined an ashram. Segregation was essential so that one can be part of like minded people. What was that ? That was also a group, a society. But an elite society that depended on the general public for food. A totally selfish living. Guru Nanak Dev Ji came to unify all communities together. To breakdown cultural barriers. Because everyone has the right to join his maker. 

Each yuga has its own rules that one has to obey. Theories of Duaaper or Treita Yugas are not fully applicable or practical in Kalyuga. Lord Ram was the devta of Treita Yuga. Lord Krishna was the Devta of Duaaper Yuga. Similarly the Lord of Kalyug is Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Sikhism is not exclusive to the Punjabis. There are four doors to the Sri Harimandir Sahib. (The Golden Temple) signifying all to join as you wish, when you are ready.

This Earth is referred to as a Dharmsal – a School where you are a Student. It is from this school that you will seek the path to go home. The Holly Guru Granth Sahib stands witness to the fact that many before and many at the times of our Gurus, by living on the path as laid down have found their way home. We too can find our way home if we can truly make up our mind. The message is simple:

Pahilaa maran kabool jeevan kee chhad aas.
First, accept death( Make up your mind you want to go home), and give up any hope of life ( Cast off the notion of living )
hohu sabhnaa kee raynukaa ta-o aa-o hamaarai paas. ||1||
Become the dust of the feet of all ( become the sacrificial lamb give up your “I” ), and then, you may come to me. ||1|| 

So Respected Devakumarc ji do you have it in you to accept this offer. This tried and tested formula comes with the blessing of our Beloved Gurus.

Ja-o ta-o paraym khaylan kaa chaa-o.
If you desire to play this game of love with Me, (The path in which transformation takes place without pain and much effort, and forgiveness is granted)
sir Dhar talee galee mayree aa-o.
then step onto My Path with your head in hand. (The pre-requisite is that you have to forget all that you know – knowledge that you have accumulated in this world, in order for the Guru to bless you with a new vision)
it maarag pair Dhareejai.
When you place your feet on this Path, (Once you decide to take this offer)
sir deejai kaan na keejai. ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20|(Do not look back as there will be many who will offer false promises to deter you from the path)

Do not take my word for it, Try it out. Cast off your duality. 


Mere muj mein kuj nahi jo kuj kai so tera
Tera tuj ko somptey kya lage mera.

_Gur amardaas p{censored}e-ai Dhi-aan lahee-ai pa-o mukihi._
_Meeting with Guru Amar Daas, the mortal meditates on the Lord, and his journey comes to its end._


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## badmash (Mar 8, 2007)

xtracx said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I feel very troubled mentally day after day about my faith. Yes, i am a young teenage sikh but i have just 1 question that burns my mind everyday!
> 
> ...



I do not mean to be too rude, but what exactly is your problem? I mean, does it not mean anything to you that so many Sikhs of old died and were tortured so that today you can say " I am Sikh". Of course you can choose whatever path you wish, but shame that some of your (and our collective) forefathers may have suffered and sacrificed so you could question your own loyalty and allegiance to a secular and flexible faith. Better you had been born into another faith where no such conflicts or questions are even allowed?!


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## dalsingh (Mar 9, 2007)

> I mean, does it not mean anything to you that so many Sikhs of old died and were tortured so that today you can say " I am Sikh". Of course you can choose whatever path you wish, but shame that some of your (and our collective) forefathers may have suffered and sacrificed so you could question your own loyalty and allegiance to a secular and flexible faith. Better you had been born into another faith where no such conflicts or questions are even allowed?!


 
I second that.

Sikhs have inherited a fabulous heritage. Bravery against all odds. A healthy attitude towards difference in that they are not obsessed about destroying people that are different unlike some. Panjabis owe their freedom of spirit totally to Sikhism. 

Although I'm not the best SIkh around I AM damn proud of my roots and wouldn't want to be any thing else. Let others do/believe what they want dude. Just explore the beauty of the Sikh revolution that you/we are all children of.


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## H.t. (Apr 1, 2007)

Perdip said:


> If God does take you along the path of Christianity, please bear in mind that Jesus is *NOT* the son of God. The Holy Quran will tell you exactly why. Apart from this, may you prosper in faith and find God within. Read GGS translation on SIKHNET - Sikh Religion - Sikhism Information.


  Would you mind to tell me where in the Qu'ran we anre told that Jesus is not God?


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## sbajwa (May 27, 2009)

Trouble is not between religions rather trouble is between different people who can't interpret their own religions without bringing in competition with others.  so it is the Group Haumai and Group Ahankaar.


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## Satyaban (Jun 5, 2009)

My young friend you are not unique in your feelings which I believe comes naturally to a seeker of truth. My advice is "Keep close to the faith of your parents until when and if another faith attracts you irressistably. I do belive that as "all rivers lead to the sea all faiths lead to God." Their basic creed is "love and worship God and do no harm." It sounds simple doesn't it? But it is not. You are embarking on a spiritual journey and I know this because you are here.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 5, 2009)

Any religion that is based on dogmas- Subjective Truth leads one to the mechanical ritualism and curtails one's thought process and makes one parochial and mypoic in one's thinking. 

Only a way of life sans dogmas which is based on pragamtism and meaningful rituals is able to open the inner windows so that the seeds of goodness sowed within can find some true light to grow which helps one to be openminded so that one reaches the level of acceptance of ALL being from only ONE SOURCE rather than tolerance which indicates one's bias and reservation towards the fellow human being.

Only the thought process that makes one realise and hence  practice, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi" can lead one towards pragmatism and openmindedness.


Tejwant Singh


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## Josh martin (Jul 8, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> *WE MUST HAVE COMPLETE FAITH IN SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI*.



why is it a must?


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## spnadmin (Jul 8, 2009)

ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥
suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth ||
The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna.


ਲੋਗੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਸਰਾਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ ॥੨॥
log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2||
See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2||


ਅਜਾਮਲੁ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਲੁਭਤੁ ਕੁੰਚਰੁ ਗਏ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
ajaamal pingulaa lubhath kunchar geae har kai paas ||
Ajaamal, Pingulaa, Lodhia and the elephant went to the Lord.


ਐਸੇ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਿਸਤਰੇ ਤੂ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਤਰਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ॥੩॥੧॥
aisae dhuramath nisatharae thoo kio n tharehi ravidhaas ||3||1||
Even such evil-minded beings were emancipated. Why should you not also be saved, O Ravi Daas? ||3||1||

Sant Ravi Daas, Ang 1124


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



navroopsingh said:


> It seems to me that this too may have come out incorrectly. I dont see how Sikhi was formed to unite religions. guru Nanak said that he didnt want people to be forced to convert but rather told them how to follow their religion properly. Such as rituals, idol worshipping, and pilgrimages. But they did say that all people should love one another regardless of caste, colour, sex, or religion because we are all God's creation and he is in all.
> 
> If it was formed to "unite" all religions in the sense to form them into one, and you can show me how through either quotation or debate i am honestly sorry for my misunderstanding to why sikhism was created.


 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear All,

Sikhism believes in tolerance, humility and pantheism minus empty rituals, superstition, and miracles. Intolerance of others is the cause of trouble in the world and here are my two cents on the subject;

*INTOLERANCE/ਅਸਹਿਨਸ਼ੀਲਤਾ*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 
Intolerance is the lack of ability or willingness to accept something and is one of the character defects. It reflects an unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or beliefs. It might be due to a complex mental state involving beliefs. One’s feelings and values dispose him to act in certain ways. No individual or group is actually superior to the rest of the humanity. Intolerance is a refusal to accept people who have views, beliefs or life styles, which are different from one’s own. It is often due to ego as expressed by Guru Nanak in Raag Asa:

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਟਿ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ॥ਪਤਿ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੋਲਿਆ ਜਾਪੈ ॥

_Sabh Ko Poora Aapay Hovai Ghat Na Ko-ee Aakhai, pat parvaanaa pichhai paa-ee-ai taa naanak toli-aa jaapai._ 

Every one deems himself perfect, and none calls himself imperfect. If the weight of honor is placed on the scale, then, O Nanak, one sees his true weight.
-----Guru Nanak, Asa Di Var, AGGS, Page, 469-4

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Are We Intolerant?*

Intolerance has been commonly associated with religion. Closely tied to the notion of “judgment” is “tolerance.” Although many accuse absolutists of intolerance, these accusers most likely have an unclear and distorted notion of what tolerance really is. They often are unaware that the concept of tolerance implies a close relationship to truth. Contrary to popular definitions, true tolerance means “putting up with error, and accepting all views.” By definition, what we tolerate is what we disapprove of or what we believe to be false and erroneous. Furthermore, tolerance presupposes an adequate grasp of what another person believes—as well as knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of such belief. Actually, if disagreement didn’t exist, then tolerance would be unnecessary. It is because real differences exist between people that tolerance becomes necessary and virtuous.

Intolerance may be caused by an unacceptable environment or a drug. Absence of the virtue of tolerance is a character defect and a global malady. I supplicated to God to bless me with tolerance. God said No; it is not granted but learnt.

ਖਿਮਾ ਗਹੀ ਸਚੁ ਸੰਚਿਓ ਖਾਇਓ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਨਾਮ ॥ ਖਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਭਈ ਅਨਦ ਸੂਖ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥

_Khimaa Gahee Sach Sanchio Khaa-eo Amnrit Naam, Kharee Kirpaa Thaakur Bha-ee Anad Sookh Bisraam._

Adopt an attitude of tolerance, gather truth, and partake of the Ambrosial Nectar of the Name. When my Akal Purkh and Master showed Its Great Mercy, I found peace, happiness and bliss. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 261-8 

Tolerance is showing respect for the rights or opinions or practices of others; it is another word for indifference. To understand every thing makes one tolerant with a broader outlook and a wider vision. It is characterized by an open mind and can lead to happiness. On the other hand what one sows poison (intolerance), one will reap, says Guru Amardas in Siri Raag and Bhai Gurdas in his Vaar 4;

ਗੁਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਦਿੜਾਵੈ ਰੰਗ ਸਿਉ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਲਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਜੇ ਸਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਨੀਰੀਐ ਭੀ ਬਿਖੁ ਫਲੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਧਾਇ॥

_Jė sa&shy;o amriṯ nīrī&shy;ai bẖī bikẖ fal lāgai ḏẖā&shy;ė. Gur sabaḏ ḏiṛāvai rang si▫o bin kirpā la▫i▫ā na jā▫e._

The Guru has lovingly implanted the Word of His Sabd within me. Without His Grace, it cannot be attained. Even if the poisonous plant is watered with ambrosial nectar a hundred times, it will still bear poisonous fruit. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 65-15

ਜੋ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋਈ ਲੁਣੈ ਸਭ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗ ਰੰਗੀਣੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲੁ ਹੈ ਮਸਕੀਣੀ ॥

_Jo Beejai So LuNai Sabh Ras Kas Boh Rang Rangeenee, Gurmukh Sukh Fal Hai MaskeeNee._

Amongst vegetative flora, of sweet and bitter tastes, and of a variety of colors on earth, one reaps whatever one sows. The saintly person perceives happiness only while practicing humility. -----Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 4, Pauri, 2

Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. It often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important and is in fact, a prerequisite to the successful conclusion of any line of search, whether it is scientific or spiritual.

Difference of opinion is helpful in religion. -----Voltaire

It is observed that those who follow the tenets of Sikhism in totality, truthfully, and honestly with the greatest earnestness attain serenity. Their zeal will often lead to other finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Tolerance expresses itself in a variety of ways: in kindness and consideration:

1. Toward the man or woman who is just beginning the march along the Spiritual path.

2. In understanding the difficulties of those who perhaps have not learned the Gurmukhi language and enough Gurbani.

3. And in sympathy toward those whose religious ideas may seem to be at great variance.

4. The only hope of preserving what is best, lies in the practice of immense charity, a wider tolerance, and a sincere respect for the others’ opinions with humility.

It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world. If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty. -----Gandhi 

Human diversity makes tolerance more than a virtue. "The best thing to give to your enemy is forgiveness; to an opponent, tolerance; to a friend, your heart; to your child, a good example; to a father, deference; to your mother, conduct that will make her proud of you; to yourself, respect; to all men, charity." Sheikh Farid writes in his Sloke 127 on these:

ਨਿਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਖਵਣੁ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਮਣੀਆ ਮੰਤ॥ ਏ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਭੈਣੇ ਵੇਸ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਂ ਵਸਿ ਆਵੀ ਕੰਤੁ ॥

_NivaN So Akhar KhavaN GouN Jehba MaNia Mant, Ay Tarai Bhainay Vays Kar TaaN Vas Aavee Kant._

Humility is the word, forgiveness is the virtue, and sweet speech is the magic mantra. Wear these three robes, O sister, and you will captivate your Spouse Akal Purkh. -----Sloke Sheikh Farid # 127, AGGS, Page, 1384-15

Guru Nanak in Raag Sorath and Guru Ramdas in Raag Asa ponder on human equality;

ਜੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥

_Jo Antar So Baahar Daykhhu Avar Na Doojaa Ko-ee Jee-o,Gurmukh Ayk Darisat Kar Daykhhu Ghat Ghat Jot Samo-ee Jee-o._ 

God is within -- see It outside as well; there is no one, other than Akal Purkh. As Guru willed, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 599-2

ਸਭ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਆ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਊਤਮ ਜਨ ਪਰਧਾਨ ਜੀਉ ॥

_Sabh Ayk Darisat Samat Kar Gaykhai Sabh Aatam Raam Pachhaan Jee-o, Har Har Jas Gaa-i-aa Param Pad Paa-i-aa Tay Ootam Jan ParDhaan Jee-o._

They look upon all with equality, and recognize the Supreme Soul, the Akal Purkh, pervading among all. Those who sing the Praises of the God, Akal Purkh, obtain the supreme status; they are the most exalted and acclaimed people. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 446-12 

He who has no spiritual peace, tolerance, consolation, truth, love, and devotion cannot communicate these gifts and virtues to the others. But on the other hand those who reflect on spiritual knowledge will become benefactor to others says Guru Nanak in Raag Asa;

ਵਿਦਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀ ॥ਜਾਂ ਪੰਚ ਰਾਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਤੀਰਥ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

_vidi-aa veechaaree taaN par-upkaaree, jaaN panch raasee taaN tirath vaasee._ 

Contemplate and reflect upon knowledge, and you will become a benefactor to others. When you conquer the five passions, then you shall come to dwell at the sacred shrine of pilgrimage. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 356-14

*Conclusion:*

Patience, tolerance, understanding and love are the watchwords. Show others these things in yourself and they will be reflected back to you from them. Live and let live should be the rule. A spirit of intolerance might repel other Sikhs, whose ignorance can be dispelled by Divine Knowledge. I believe that it is fear that fuels the fires of misunderstanding and intolerance. In order to ease the fear people have of others beliefs, my way of promoting respect is to develop tolerance of all belief and non-belief systems. We all are on different paths and different spiritual stages with the same goal. None is more sacred than another. Everyone has their own personal connection to their spirituality, but regardless of what or who we call God everyone should be able to worship in their own way of understanding the teachings of Sabd Guru without intolerance. To experience love, and to create a life that succeeds, one needs to stop fighting and resisting. One can do this through "letting go," which is the inner action that releases the fear. The moment you let go, everything seems to change. With the fear gone, one sees the same situation very differently and becomes, humble, non-argumentative, creative and discovers solutions that he could never have seen before.

ਉਕਤਿ ਸਿਆਨਪ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥ਮੈ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨਹਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਅਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਆਸ ਮਨਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਸਾਧਾ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਮਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਥੋਰੀ ॥ ਬਿਨਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਓਟ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੋਰੀ ॥ 

_Oakat Siaanup Kichu Na Jaana, Din Raenn Tera Naam Vakhaanaa, “Mea Nirgun Gun Nahi Koey, Karan Karaavanhaar Prabh Soey, Moorakh Mugdh Agiaann Aveechaari, Naam Teray Ki Aas Man Dhari, Jap Tap Sanjam Karam Na Saadhaa, Naam Prabhu Ka Maneh Aaraadhaa, Kichoo Na Jana Mat Meri Thoree, Binvat Nanak Oat Prabh Toree._

I know nothing of arguments or cleverness. Day and night, I chant Your Name. I am worthless; I have no virtue at all. God is the Creator, the Cause of all causes. I am foolish, stupid, ignorant and thoughtless; Your Name is my mind's only hope. I have not practiced chanting, deep meditation, self-discipline or good actions; but within my mind, I have worshipped God's Name. I know nothing, and my intellect is inadequate. Prays Nanak, O God, You are my only Support. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 387-388

Love and tolerance of others is the foundation stone of Sikh Faith and one must tolerate others without being disturbed. The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with. This challenge has to be dealt with human maturity in a constructive and creative way.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



kaur?princess? said:


> Yes, I'm sorry for that. I did not mean it the way it came out.. i just meant in the part that there are a lot of similarities b/w them and sikhism was in a way formed to unite all religions.



Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the SGGS...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
> GURMATT of Guur nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
> Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
> If we read the SGGS...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...



If I may insert my opinion. Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting.
To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand.

Further more, Guru ji didn't come to eradicate other religions/world but to remind everyone and set them on the original path. 
He reminds everyone what a real pundit/baisno/bhagoti is in Sukhmani sahib

So pandit jo mun parbodeh
Ram naam atam meh sodeh


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*



Josh martin said:


> If I may insert my opinion. Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting.
> To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand.
> 
> Further more, Guru ji didn't come to eradicate other religions/world but to remind everyone and set them on the original path.
> ...




*So pandit jo mun parbodeh
Ram naam atam meh sodeh*

Not to me anything subtle but actually a put-down whenever a poster catches the scent of someone who actually knows something. _

"Let's look at the other portions of your comments

Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. *If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself *"_ 

Who "created" it if  Guru Nanak did not? Who said his "inspiration did not/does not originate from the Sat? Or are we arguing that Guru Nanak's Banee was found in a mystical moment under a rock and it was marked with the signature of God, on loan for Guru Nanak to share with humanity - or some kind of Indiana Jones story like that?

"It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting."

Guru Bani is the Guru's Banee and Guru matth is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani and the Guru matth is found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

Anyone who chooses otherwise is following some other mattth, as a member of some other panth,  which they are quite free to do.


"To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand"

And your point is?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 10, 2009)

*Dhur Ki Bani*

*Dear All,*

*As I understand with my meager intellect, I do not think that Akal Purkh communicated with Guru Nanak in Gurmukhi as written in AGGS. But IMHO Guru Nanak in his spiritual experience comunicated with the Higher Power and communicated the same with the humanity in the current people's language of the time (Khari Boli) in poetical form of his understanding of the message of Akal Purkh.* *With due apologies we can agree to disagree in this aspect.*

*Cordially,*

*Virinder*


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

*But IMHO Guru Nanak in his spiritual experience comunicated with the Higher Power and communicated the same with the humanity in the current people's language of the time (Khari Boli) in poetical form of his understanding of the message of Akal Purkh.
*
That would be very similar to my own views. Thank you.*
*


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*

Key: _Black is quotes from my last reply which she reply's to.
__ Blue Kaurji's reply to quotes, Red text is my reply to the blue reply_.
_
"Let's look at the other portions of your comments
Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. *If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself *"_ 

Who "created" it if  Guru Nanak did not?
Gupti bani pargat hoi. Gurbani is Aadh such/Jugadh such/Habai such. Always existed. Guru Nanak dev ji "pargat" Gurbani Akal purakh ki for everyone.
 
Who said his "inspiration did not/does not originate from the Sat? 
Not only is it inspiration from Sat but is Sat in whole itself. It's puran bani, The original, not something new.

Or are we arguing that Guru Nanak's Banee was found in a mystical moment under a rock and it was marked with the signature of God,

Guru Nanak ji recieved Bhani from DHur/Suchkhand, instead of under a rock. It's not only marked by signature of God, it is Bani of God himself. Anyone who gets on the "Jahaz" ship of bani will reach sachkhand.

on loan for Guru Nanak to share with humanity - or some kind of Indiana Jones story like that?

Kabir ji says "Gur Dini kabir ko, Kabir dini jis mastak bhag"Nothing in Gursikhi is loan or earned, its daan/daat, Given to Guru Nanak Dev ji. 


"It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting."

Guru Bani is the Guru's Banee and Guru matth is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani and the Guru matth is found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

Guru Bani is the Guru's Bannee which Guru _recieved from Sachkhand/Dhur, _is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani,_ bani of nirankar_, and the Guru Mathh is what entire _Shri Guru Granth Sahib consists of_.

Anyone who chooses otherwise is following some other mattth, as a member of some other panth,  which they are quite free to do.

Plz define what you mean by otherwise. Seems like your repeated what I said in different context.


"To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand"

And your point is? 
 Point being, Giani Jarnail Singh ji states that Gurbani is brand new approach and is not about joinin/uniting other religions. In answer to which I stated my opinion: Gurbani has always existed, does exist and will always exist, nothing brand new. Gurbani diminishes/erases/transcends petty differences between races/religions etc and is "sanjhi" for all humankind. Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji are Jagat/world guru. Guru Bani guru, guru hai bani, Goes for everyone. 


This is _always_ fun. If possible, keep quotes in original order posted.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 10, 2009)

*BaNi/ ਬਾਨੀ/ ਬਾਣੀ*​ 
Meaning- (1) ਸ਼ਬਦ, ਬਾਣੀ, ਕਾਵਿ- ਬੋਲ, ਬੋਲ (2) ਬੋਲੀ, ਬਚਨ (3) ਰੰਗ (4) ਭਾਂਤ, ਕਿਸਮ,ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ (5) ਤੀਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ (6) ਆਦਤ, ਸੁਭਾਉ -Founder, one who founds / sets up establishes. 
ਸੰ. ਵਰ੍*ਣ. ਰੰਗਤ. "ਕੁਮ੍ਹਾਰੈ ਏਕੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਗੂੰਧੀ, ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਾਨੀ ਲਾਈ". (ਆਸਾ ਕਬੀਰ)। (2) ਕਿਸਮ. ਭਾਂਤ. ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ. "ਰਾਂਧਿ ਕੀਓ ਬਹੁ ਬਾਨੀ". (ਸੋਰ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ) ਰਿੰਨ੍ਹਕੇ ਕਈ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦਾ ਬਣਾਇਆ। (3) ਲਾਲ ਵਰ੍*ਣ ਦਾ ਸੂਤ, ਜੋ ਦੁਤਹੀ ਖੇਸ ਆਦਿ ਦੇ ਕਿਨਾਰੇ ਬੁਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। (4) ਸੁਵਰਣ ਦਾ ਵਰ੍*ਣ (ਰੰਗਤ) ਬੰਨੀ। (5) ਸੁਭਾਉ. ਬਾਣ. ਆਦਤ. "ਪਰਦਰਬੁ ਹਿਰਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਨੀ". (ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਬੇਣੀ)। (6) ਬਾਣਾਂ (ਤੀਰਾਂ) ਨਾਲ. ਵਾਣੋ ਸੇ. "ਪਾਂਚ ਮਿਰਗ ਬੇਧੇ ਸਿਵ ਕੀ ਬਾਨੀ". (ਭੈਰ ਮਃ ੫)। (7) ਅ਼. __ ਵਿ- ਮੋਢੀ. ਮੂਜਿਦ. "ਮੰਡ੍ਯੋ ਬੀਰ ਬਾਨੀ". (ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ)। (8) ਸੰ. ਵਾਣੀ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਵਚਨ. ਵਾਕ੍ਯ. "ਬਾਨੀ ਪਢੋ ਸ਼ੁੱਧ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੇਰੀ". (ਗੁਪ੍ਰਸੂ)। (9) ਸਰਸ੍ਵਤੀ. "ਲਿਯੇ ਬੀਨ ਨਾਰਦ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨੀ". (ਸਲੋਹ).​ 
*GurbaNi-ਗੁਰੁਬਾਨੀ/ਗੁਰੁਬਾਣੀ*​ 
Words of Guru; ਸ਼ਬਦ, ਆਵਾਜ਼, ਨਾਦ, ਜੀਵਨ-ਰੌ, ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ, ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ, ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਕੀਰਤਨ। ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ। 

"ਗੁਰੁਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕ ਜਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ". (ਨਟ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੪) ਸੁਧਾ ਕੀ ਤਰੰਗਿਨੀ ਸੀ ਰੋਗ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਭੰਗਨੀ ਹੈ ਮਹਾਸ੍ਵੇਤ ਰੰਗਨੀ ਮਹਾਨ ਮਨ ਮਾਨੀ ਹੈ। ਕਿਧੌਂ ਯਹਿ ਹੰਸਨੀ ਸੀ ਮਾਨਸਵਤੰਸਨੀ ਹੈ ਗੁਨਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਸਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਜਗ ਜਾਨੀ ਹੈ। ਕਿਧੌਂ ਚੰਦ ਚਾਂਦਨੀ ਸੀ ਮੋਹਘਾਮ ਮੰਦਨੀ ਹੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਕੀ ਅਨੰਦਨੀ ਸਦੀਵ ਸੁਖਦਾਨੀ ਹੈ। ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਟਰਾਨੀ ਸ੍ਯਾਨੀ ਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਕੀ ਜਨਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ਗੁਨੀ ਭਨੀ ਬਾਨੀ ਤਾਂਕੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁਬਾਨੀ ਹੈ। (ਨਾਪ੍ਰ)। (2) ਕਰਤਾਰ ਸੰਬੰਧੀ ਬਾਣੀ. "ਰਾਤੀ ਜਾਇ ਸੁਣੈ ਗੁਰੁਬਾਣੀ". (ਭਾਗੁ).

ਗੁਰਬਾਨੀ- {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕਦੇਵ ਅਤੇ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ. ਅਕਾਲੀ ਬਾਣੀ, ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਦ੍ਵਾਰਾ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ. "ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੩) "ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਹਰਿਨਾਮ ਸਮਾਇਆ". (ਗਉ ਮਃ ੪) ਦੇਖੋ, ਗੁਰੁਬਾਨੀ.

ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਪੈ ॥

_Sacẖī baṇī jug cẖārė jāpai._

The True Bani of the Word is known throughout the four ages.-----Guru Amar Das, Raag Gauri Guareri, AGGS, Page, 158-10

ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

_Jug cẖārė nām uṯam sabaḏ bīcẖār._

Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Sabd.-----Guru Amar Das, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 229-16

ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

_Cẖahu jug meh amriṯ sācẖī baṇī._

Throughout the four ages, the True Bani of Akal Purkh’s Word is Ambrosial Nectar.-----Guru Amar Das, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 665-17

ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

_Cẖahu jugā kā huṇ nibėṛā nar manukẖā no ėk niḏẖānā._

The Name of the One Akal Purkh is the greatest treasure and it is the essence of the teachings of the four ages: for the human race -----Guru Amar Das, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 797-17

ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹੋਈ ॥

_Jug cẖārė nām vadi&shy;ā&shy;ī ho&shy;ī._

In all four ages, the Naam, the Name of the Akal Purkh, is glorious and great.-----Guru Amar Das, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 880-2

ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥

_Jug cẖārė gur sabaḏ pacẖẖāṯā._

Throughout the four ages, Guru willed recognizes the Word of the Guru's Sabd.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*DIVINE KNOWLEDGE/SPIRITUAL WISDOM/ ਗਿਆਨੁ*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 
Divine Knowledge is gained through learning honestly, truthfully by living in the message in thought, word, spirit, and deed in the hymns of AGGS. It imparts an understanding of facts and truths about the material world (Maya) and It’s Creator. Divine Will is the cause of all material things (Maya). The transference of such knowledge into our own world of finite space and time also is made possible by the Divine Will. Guru Arjan in Raag Asa and Kabir in Raag Gauri Thiti say; who get blessed with Naam and Its Grace, do understand the mystery of God, where by there is no difference between the seeker and the Creator, the common denominator being the Divine knowledge; 

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੇ ਕਿਨੇਹਿਆ ॥ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਜੇਹਿਆ ॥

_Jinĥā na visrai nām sė kinėhi¬ā. Bẖėḏ na jāṇhu mūl sāŉ¬ī jėhi¬ā._

What are they like - those who do not forget the Name of the Akal Purkh? Know that there is absolutely no difference; they are exactly like the God. -----Guru Arjan. Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 397-17

ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਲਖੈ ਜਉ ਭੇਉ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਉ ॥

_Sāḏẖik siḏẖ lakẖai ja¬o bẖė¬o, Āpė karṯā āpė ḏė¬o._ 

When the strivers and holy seekers come to know the secret of Akal Purkh's mystery, they themselves become the Creator; they themselves become the Divine Itself. -----Kabir, Raag Gauri Thiti, AGGS, Page, 343-4

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Akal Purkh is completely beyond mortal abilities of comparison and conception, and so we can have only partial knowledge about God. We may know Its Attributes and Names but Its essence may escape us. One can study Akal Purkh’s acts and meditate on Its attributes. They help -- still it is not easy. Guru Nanak in Raag Asa says that the divine knowledge does not come by mere talk:

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਗਲੀਈ ਢੂਢੀਐ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ॥ ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

_Giaan Na Galee-ee Dhoodhai Kathna Karrhaa Saar, Karam Milai Taa Paa-ee-ai Hor Hikmat Hukam Khu-aar._

Wisdom cannot be found through mere words. To explain It is as hard as iron. When the Akal Purkh bestows Its Grace, then alone it is received; other tricks and orders are useless. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-1

Divine Knowledge and Will are two essential Attributes of Divine Being:

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰਾ॥ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚੀਰਾ॥

_Giaan Dhiaan Such Gehar Ganbheera, Koey Na Janai Tayra Cheeraa._

Spiritual wisdom comes from deep and profound meditation on the True Akal Purkh. No one truly knows Its expanse. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru Dakhni, AGGS, Page, 1034-4

Divine Knowledge is an awareness and understanding of the eternal truths. It can be learned through the teachings incorporated in the Sabd Guru. The purpose of Divine knowledge is to purify our inner selves. This purification is the result of subjugating five lower instincts and developing godly virtues, otherwise an individual will only understand according to his meager intellect says Kabir; 

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜੀਅ ਜੈਸੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੋਈ ॥ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾਨੈਗਾ ਸੋਈ ॥

_Jā kai jī¬a jaisī buḏẖ ho¬ī, Kahi Kabīr jānaigā so¬ī._

What ever kind of understanding is lodged in ones self, such shall be his realization, says Kabir. -----Kabir, Gauri Poorbi Bawan Akhri, AGGS, Page, 343-2

Divine Knowledge provides the clothing for the material existence of creatures and things (Maya) according to the Divine Will, within the bounds of time and space. Transfer of Knowledge also occurs by the blessing of Akal Purkh’s Will otherwise one wanders in ignorance aimlessly says Nanak; 

ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਵੈ ਸਬਾਈ॥ ਸਾਚ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ॥

_Giaan Vihoonee Bhvai Sabaa-ee, Saachaa Rav Rahiaa Liv Layee._

Without spiritual wisdom, they all just wander about aimlessly. The True Akal Purkh is pervading and permeating everywhere and remains engaged lovingly.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1034-17

As described in the following hymns of Kabir in Raag Kedara, Guru Arjan, and Guru Nanak in Raag Asa, active participation is required by anyone seeking Divine Knowledge:

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਏਕੁ ਆਧੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਕਾਮ ਕੋ੍ਧ ਲੋਭ ਬਿਬਰਜਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਸੋਈ॥ ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰ ਚੀਨੈ੍ ਤਿਨ੍ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ॥ 

_tayraa jan ayk aaDh ko-ee,Kaam Krodh Lobh Moh Biberjit Har Pad Cheenai Soyee, “Raj Goun Tam Goun Sat Goun Kaheyai Eh Teri Sabh Maya, “Chauthay Pad Kaou Jo Nar Cheenai Tin He Param Pad Paaeya._

Rare is the one who is truly a humble servant of the Akal Purkh. By overcoming sexual desire, anger, greed and attachment, such a person becomes aware of the Akal Purkh's Feet. He learns about Rajas, the quality of energy and activity; Taamas, the quality of darkness and inertia; and Satvas, the quality of purity and light. These are all manifestations of Maya, and an illusion. He alone, who reaches the fourth state of spiritual development, obtains the supreme state of Divine Knowledge. -----Kabir, Raag Kedara, AGGS, Page, 1123

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਗੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਰੰਗ॥ ਵਡਭਾਗੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ॥

_Nanak Sadhoo Sang Jaagay Giaan Rang, Vadbhaagay Kirpa._

In the company of the holy, one’s love for Divine Knowledge is awakened. The Akal Purkh's Mercy is bestowed upon those who are blessed with such good destiny. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 380-8

ਸਗਲੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਾਲੁ ਧਨੁ ਵਰਤਣਿ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਮੁਸੈ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਖਾਇ ਗਇਆ ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ॥

_Saglee Dhartee Maal Dhan Vartan Sarab Janjaal, Nanak Musai Giaan Vihoonee Khaay Gaiaa Jamkaal._

Earthly goods, property, and material wealth are all entanglements. O, Nanak, without Divine Knowledge, one is plundered, and devoured by the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-6

Spiritual ignorance persists in those who do not try to sharpen their minds. Without an active attempt to control and purify the mind with the medicine of Truth, Divine knowledge is not possible. One gets ready to receive the blessing of Divine knowledge by stilling his mind. The pause between two thoughts energizes the mind and readies to receive Its Grace. It can then be blessed with Divine knowledge. In a mind, there can only be one thought at a time. And it should be focused on that Absolute Principle; otherwise it is a worship of ignorance says Guru Nanak;

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ॥ ਔਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

_Giaan HeeNan Agiaan Poojaa, Andh Vartaavaa Bhaou Doojaa._

Without spiritual wisdom, people are merely worshipping ignorance. They grope in the dark and stay in love with the duality. -----Guru Nanak, Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1412-4

Kabir proclaimed in Raag Gauri that when mind is sharpened and channeled by Divine knowledge, one can come to know the three worlds. Without such knowledge he remains in the pangs of separation;

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲੇ ਜਉ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਹੈ ॥ਤਉ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਤੈ ਕਹੈ ॥

_Ayh Man Lay Jaou Unman Rahay, Taou Teen Lok Ki Baatay Kahay._

When this mind is channeled, and guided through enlightenment, it can grasp the secrets of the three worlds. -----Bhagat Kabir, Gauri Poorbi, AGGS, Page, 342-5

ਸਾਸੁ ਕੀ ਦੁਖੀ ਸਸੁਰ ਕੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਜੇਠ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਡਰਉ ਰੇ ॥ਸਖੀ ਸਹੇਲੀ ਨਨਦ ਗਹੇਲੀ ਦੇਵਰ ਕੈ ਬਿਰਹਿ ਜਰਉ ਰੇ॥

_Saas Kee Dukhee Sasur Kee Pi-aaree Jayth Kay Naam Dara-o Ray, Sakhee Sahaylee Nanad Gahaylee Dayvar Kai Bireh Jarao Ray._

I am bothered by my mother-in-law, Maya, and loved by my father-in-law, the Akal Purkh. I fear even the name of my husband's elder brother, Death. O, my mates and companions, my husband's sister, misunderstanding has seized me, and I am burning with the pain of separation from my husband's younger brother, Divine Knowledge. -----Kabir, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 482-7

Bhai Gurdas says that Gurmukhs attains divine knowledge through Sabd in his Vaar 19;

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਾਣੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੂਰਣ ਮਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੀਐ ॥

_Gurmukh Breham Giaan Giaanee Baanee-ai, Gurmukh PooraN Mat Sabd NeesaaNee-ai._

Once Guru willed attain Divine Knowledge, they are called knowledgeable ones and has the wisdom fully stamped and marked by the Word.-----Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 19, Pauri, 15

The wise seers and perfect masters come to see the Divine Light, the elemental or metaphysical form of God. Their knowledge occurs in an instant. They immediately and directly experience divine light. They hear the holy name, inner unstrung music, and taste the holy nectar. This knowledge is present in all as Higher self veiled by lowers self, which has to be removed by an active effort of the individual to be blessed by becoming a candidate for it. Further to attain such Divine Knowledge one needs the help of a Guru, says Nanak in Raag Asa;

ਕੁੰਭੇ ਬਧਾ ਜਲ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੁੰਭ ਨ ਹੈਇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਬਧਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ॥

_Kunbhay Badha Jal Rahay Jal Bin Kunbh Na Hoay, Giaan Ka Badhaa Man Rahai Gur Bin Giaan Na Hoay._

Water remains confined within the pitcher, but without water, the pitcher could not have been formed. Similarly the mind is restrained by spiritual wisdom, but without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 469-17

Guru Arjan in Raag Gauri emphasizes the idea that spiritual wisdom cannot be gained by mere talk or by merely listening to divine stories.

ਙੰਙਾ ਙਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੁਖ ਬਾਤਉ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ ਕਰਿ ਭਾਤਉ॥ ਙਿਆਨੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਦਿ੍ੜ ਸੋਉ॥ ਕਹਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਕਛੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਊ॥

_Nganga Ngiaan Mukh Batou, Anek Jugat Saaster Kar Bhatou, Ngianee Soey Ja Kai Dirrh Souoo, Kehat Sunat Kuch Joag Na Houoo._

NGANGA, Spiritual wisdom is not obtained by mere words of mouth. It is not obtained through the various debates about the Shaastras and scriptures. They alone are spiritually wise, whose minds are firmly fixed on The Akal Purkh. Hearing and telling stories, no one attains Yoga. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 251

It is only after we see divine light within our inner-self that self-transformation and holistic well-being become reality,” says Kabir in Raag Parbhati.

ਤਤੁ ਤੇਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤੀ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਦੇਹ ਉਜ੍ਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਾਇ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਜਗਾਇਆ ਬੂਝੈ ਬਝਨਹਾਰਾ ॥

_Tat Tail Naam Kee-aa Baati Deepak Dayh Oujhaaraa, Jot La-ay Jagdees Jagaa-e-aa Boojhai Boojhanhara._

With the oil of knowledge about the essence of reality, and the wick of the Naam, the Name of the Akal Purkh, this lamp illuminates my body. I have applied the Light of the Master of the Universe, and lit this lamp. This mystery the enlightened alone realize. -----Kabir, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1350-13

Spirituality and Divine Knowledge help us to discover the Truth. They make life of an individual meaningful in its totality, and complete. They are gained through the help of a holy teacher and by focusing the mind on the Akal Purkh, and then It illuminates Its laws of Justice which is blind but evenhanded.

ਮਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਐ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਪ੍ਕਾਰ ਫਿਰਤ ਮਿਲਤ ਨਹੀ ਗੋਸਾਈਆ॥ 

_Maa-ee Gur Bin Giaan Na Paaeeai, Anek Parkaar Firat Billaatay Milat Nhee Gosaa-eeai._

O mother, without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained. People roam around, weeping and crying out in all directions, but the Master of the World does not meet them.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 532-11

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਉ ਲੋਭੁ ਜਲਉ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ॥ 

_Houmai Mamta Jal Balou Loabh Jalou Abhiman, Nanak Shabad Vichaariai Paaeeai GuNee Nidhaan._

May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and may my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire. Nanak, by reflecting on the Sabd, one obtains the treasure of Spiritual Wisdom. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 59-18

ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ ॥

_So Giani Jin Sabad Liv Laa-ee, Manmukh Houmai Pat Gavaa-ee._ 

He alone is Giani, knower of the knowledge, who focuses on the Name. The self-willed, egotistical loses his honor. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 831-15 

*Conclusion;*

Divine Knowledge alone removes ignorance. Once ignorance is dispelled human mind becomes pure. When all traces of ਹਉਮੈ are gone, the mind gets illuminated with Spiritual Wisdom. Upon attaining this state of direct Vision as Gurmukh one rids of any misapprehension, uncertainty, and doubt of the Self as well as that of Reality not to arise again. One experiences his self-less true Higher Self. Unreality vanishes; only the One Pure, unseen All-pervading Consciousness is seen in all says Guru Nanak;

ਤੂੰ ਸਭਨਾ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਆਪੁ ਲੁਕਾਇਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ _Ŧūŉ sabẖnā māhi samā&shy;i&shy;ā. Ŧin karṯai āp lukā&shy;i&shy;ā. Nānak gurmukẖ pargat ho&shy;i&shy;ā jā ka&shy;o joṯ ḏẖarī karṯār jī&shy;o._

You, Akal Purkh, are pervading in all, and yet, the Creator keeps It self concealed. O, Nanak, the Creator is revealed to the Guru willed, within whom It has infused Its Light. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 72-14

Virinder S. Grewal


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

*Re: Troubled between Religions*

Lest we forget -- this is the commentary by Gyani ji that is the context for your/my comments. 

Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur Nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...         





Josh martin said:


> Key: _Black is quotes from my last reply which she reply's to.
> __ Blue Kaurji's reply to quotes, Red text is my reply to the blue reply_. Now I am green.
> _
> "Let's look at the other portions of your comments
> ...



It is always amusing ....


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## Josh martin (Jul 10, 2009)

Lest we forget -- this is the commentary by Gyani ji that is the context for your/my comments. [/quote
*Yes, lets make him the scapegoat.

* Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur Nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences... [/quote

 Quote:
                         Originally Posted by *Josh martin* 

 
_Key: Black is quotes from my last reply which she reply's to.
 Blue Kaurji's reply to quotes, Red text is my reply to the blue reply. Now I am green._[/quote_

"Let's look at the other portions of your comments
Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. *If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself *"__ 
Who "created" it if  Guru Nanak did not?
Gupti bani pargat hoi. Gurbani is Aadh such/Jugadh such/Habai such. Always existed. Guru Nanak Dev ji "pargat" Gurbani Akal purakh ki for everyone.
Of course it always existed - however Guru Nanak gave voice to it in a time when many had forgotten that it existed. So in the instrumental sense he created it. Where does Gyani deny that? He does not. He indicates that Sikhi is different from other religions._[/quote
_ *
By voicing, he delivered it, not created it. "Haon apa bol na janha, sab kaheya hukmai jio". In 10 jama of Guru Gobind singh ji, Shiri Guru Nanak dev ji states " Jo hum ko Permasher ucher hay, So narak jon meh pur hey" Guru ji calls himself sevak/lowly/nobody and connects us with Akal Purakh. *
  
Who said his "inspiration did not/does not originate from the Sat? 
Not only is it inspiration from Sat but is Sat in whole itself. It's puran bani, The original, not something new.
What is your point? Where does Gyani say Gurbani is not pooran?_[/quote
_ *
This lil note "who says....sat" is added by you and my response was to your note.*
 
Or are we arguing that Guru Nanak's Banee was found in a mystical moment under a rock and it was marked with the signature of God,
Guru Nanak ji recieved Bhani from DHur/Suchkhand, instead of under a rock. It's not only marked by signature of God, it is Bani of God himself.
What again is your point? Who said otherwise? You are the master of straw=man arguments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









_[/quote
_ *
*blushes* you said "who creaeted gurbani if Guru Nanak did not. or are we arguing.... sig of God"
I state that Guru Ji recieved Bani from Dhur, vs created it.
* 
 Anyone who gets on the "Jahaz" ship of bani will reach sachkhand. Only with His Grace. *Bolo ji Waheguru.*
 

on loan for Guru Nanak to share with humanity - or some kind of Indiana Jones story like that?
Kabir ji says "Gur Dini kabir ko, Kabir dini jis mastak bhag"Nothing in Gursikhi is loan or earned, its daan/daat, Given to Guru Nanak Dev ji. 
Who said not? If anything one is saying -- no!  it is not learned or earned but graced. Straw-man argument again .  



_[/quote
_ *
Graced aka given/daan/dat not created.*


"It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting."
Guru Bani is the Guru's Banee and Guru matth is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani and the Guru matth is found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 
Guru Bani is the Guru's Bannee which Guru recieved from Sachkhand/Dhur, is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani, bani of nirankar, and the Guru Mathh is what entire Shri Guru Granth Sahib consists of. You are repeating yourself. So therefore I have no need to repeat myself._[/quote
_ *
The difference is the underline text, "recieved from Sachkahnd/Dhur etc.*
 
Anyone who chooses otherwise is following some other mattth, as a member of some other panth,  which they are quite free to do.
Plz define what you mean by otherwise. Seems like your repeated what I said in different context.
Sant mat, quranic mat, kabbalistic mat, and so forth._[/quote
_ 
*Raam jo data naam ko, Sant Japave naam. Tu santan ka sant tere. * 
 

"To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand"
One thing that begins to strike me here is that you may be reifying sachkhand -- do you think it is a geographical location, or planetary perchance? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_[/quote
_ *SachKhand/Dhur is where gupti bani resides and brought to us by Guru Nanak dev ji, note;not created anew as a Brand new approach.*
 
And your point is?




 Point being, Giani Jarnail Singh ji states that Gurbani is brand new approach and is not about joinin/uniting other religions. In answer to which I stated my opinion: Gurbani has always existed, does exist and will always exist, nothing brand new. Gurbani diminishes/erases/transcends petty differences between races/religions etc and is "sanjhi" for all humankind. Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji are Jagat/world guru. Guru Bani guru, guru hai bani, Goes for everyone. 
Depends completely as I said above on your context for devotion. If you are a Sikh -- Gurbani is Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- not the Vedas, the Quran, the Bible, the Kabbalah. Though there may be ideas in common, there are also ideas that are dramatically divergent. Including the nature of God. Including the way one relates to God. Including the relationship of God with Creation. Including the way one prays. Including what to pray for/about. Do not oversimplify in the interests of creating ONENESS. Uniformity and Unity are not the same. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The move to ONENESS always makes me suspicious -- as if someone is trying to undermine someone else's beliefs._[/quote_

*I said gurbani is sanjhi as in In Gurbani Guruji teach Muslims how to be muslims, pundits how to be a pundit, this quote which you so heartly like
"So pundit jo mun probodeh, ram nam atam meh sodeh", 
baisno, jati, jogi, sikhs, etc. Gurbani is the original Mool of everything and is sanjhi updesh for everyone. It's not newly created or seprate. *

This is always fun. If possible, keep quotes in original order posted. _
It is always amusing ....[/quote
 *I should be getting paid for this :welcome:*


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

No you shouldn't be paid for persisting with a line of argument that you yourself instigated. 

Back to the thread. Gyani ji said as follows: 
Originally Posted by *Gyani Jarnail Singh* 

 
_Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur Nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...

He said that Guru Nanak ji gives a Gurmatt that is a completely different approach toward merger with the creator. He said nothing about creating bani. You have built your entire diatribe around that point. However, on continued questioning your comments have dwindled down to dispute on that single notion. Here is what you said. If I may insert my opinion. Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. *If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself* It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting. To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand.

So you are the one who "created" the issue of whether Gurmatt is new by making it contingent on whether Guru Nanak "created" it. He created something new. I have posted to follow an essay that reviews the elements of Sikhism that are likely to be misunderstood, misapplied, and misinterpreted in the interests of telling the panth of Guru Nanak that they don't know who their Guru is or how Guruji got to be their Guru. And why it is completely different

 Next up_


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## spnadmin (Jul 10, 2009)

*Sikhism A Faith Misunderstood*                           Published by *drkhalsa*
             10-12-2004         
*Sikhism A Faith Misunderstood* 
Misunderstanding regarding the principles, concepts and philosophy of a religion exists, usually not only in the minds of those who are not members of it but also in the minds of those who profess to be its true followers, or even champions and preachers of that faith. In case of Sikhism this is particularly so. Most of what is said, followed and preached by majority of the Sikhs about Sikhism, cannot be considered a part of the Sikh faith, rather some of it is anti-Sikhism. We have developed our own interpretation of Sikhism by watching the behavior and actions of political and religious leaders which quite often may not agree with the principles of the faith. Unless all the notions so formed, are taken out of our mind. Sikhism cannot be understood in its true perspective as preached and practiced by the Gurus. To properly understand this article the reader is, therefore, requested to forget, at least temporarily, all the ideas about Sikhism he has already formed in his mind.
Because of the new thoughts given by the "learned Sikhs" original concepts of Sikhism as delivered by Guru Nanak, have been diluted, discolored and sometimes deliberately misinterpreted. If this is allowed to happen for sometime more, Sikhism, like Hinduism will, become undefinable. Hinduism cannot be regarded as distinct, definite religion. As understood today, Hinduism has become a culture. It has many mixed together under one common name. this faith has more than one independent and sometimes contradictory concepts. Idolatry is valued high and practiced regularly by some Hindus while others have not just given it up but are vehemently opposed to it. People who kill cow and people who worship cow, both claim to be Hindus. Some gods need the sacrifice of animals, others advise Ahinsa Parmo dharma. If one is an Indian and non Muslim, or a Christian, he can be broadly classified as a Hindu.
Sikhism as well, like any other faith, has been given new interpretations intentionally, or unintentionally. this happened even during the Gurus' period. At that time any corruption in the faith was emphatically rejected even if it meant discarding the sons and near relatives of the Gurus. The purity of the faith was maintained at every cost.
Today, Hinduism has about three dozen Bhagwans each claiming to be the God-incarnate (not just sent by God) which obviously cannot be correct. There are today more than 250 answers to the question of 'What is Christianity'? Rather more serious, is the case with Islam in which there are fundamental differences, one sect is not ready to consider the other as a believer of the faith. Many killings have taken place because of the differences in deciding what Islam is and what it is not. In the near future, the Sikh "Saints" and the modern scholars along with political leaders will make, rather they have already made to a great extent, Sikhism too a hotch-potch of many self-contradictory beliefs and principles.
Sikhs believe that the tenth Nanak passed on the Guruship to the Adi Granth as eternal Shabad Guru. A very small minority, however, believers that Baba Ram Singh was nominated as the 11th Guru. Therefore, this nomination is going on in the same family as an ancestral right today. They do not take Amrit as done by the first category who believe in the Guruship of the Adi Granth. If rituals are any indication of the religion, these Sikhs are orthodox Hindus with Keshas. They have the faith in the Adi Granth not as a Guru but as a book.
Quite a few other sects have also emerged which claim to be the followers of Guru Nanak, even when they have little regard for the Gurbani written by the Gurus. They mis-quote some sections of it to justify their own 'revised' interpretation of the faith. Outwardly they keep the appearance of Sikhs but the faith and rituals they preach and the spiritual path they describe to perceive God, have nothing common with that mentioned in the Adi Granth, call them cheats. They feel Sikh appearance by such fake 'Gurus' is being kept to catch the un-wary Sikhs into their net while preaching everything against Sikhism.
It is noted with regret that historically, these so called 'Gurus' began as "preachers" of Sikhism. When they were accused of distorting the original concept they debated and tried to prove their description to be the genuine faith. Later on, when their identity was well established; they took advantage of the political situation and constitutional rights, and disconnected themselves from their Sikh base and started claiming themselves to be the founders and preachers of a new faith. They no more call themselves Sikhs and have adopted new names. This has resulted in mutual fights and quarrels, one protecting the original faith, the other trying to destroy it to establish itself.
*Popular concept-its analysis*
Those who have written about Sikhism, can be grouped into distinct categories. One group believes that Sikhism is another sect of Hinduism and they think that Sikhs are Hindus with 'Keshas'. Others feel that Sikhism is that modern version of Hinduism which excludes orthodox and dogmatic approaches of the faith. The Western writers and many Indians too, however, feel that it is the resultant effect of Islam and Hinduism inter-acting together. They base their conclusion on the thesis that some of the rituals/principles of the Sikh faith agree with Islam (belief in one God, rejection of Idols) and others agree with Hindu faith (soul migration, marriage, death and birth ceremonies). Some people who keep the Sikh philosophy in mind rather than rituals followed by Sikhs observe that Sikhism is very near Islam less the fanaticism which was shown by the Muslim rulers. People very favorable to Sikhism have written that Guru Nanak picked up the good points both from Hinduism and Islam and named the combination of these as Sikhism.
The author feels all these views originate from the ignorance about the birth of Sikhism, its development in Punjab and its further progress in the whole if India, rather the whole world. To consider Sikhism as another faith is not acceptable to this writer, who believes Sikhism is not one more addition to the long lists of faiths in God, the principals of the faith and the practices suggested for a Sikh, one cannot help to recognize that Sikhism does not belong to the class of the existing religions. It is a class by itself and fundamentally different from all existing religions.
When observed superficially some of the practices and beliefs may appear to be already existing in one or the other faith, but when studied thoroughly, these would be found having a different meaning from that given to them earlier by some other faith. Sikhism, therefore, cannot be placed on the same platform as other religions, it has to be given a new platform, a new place, a different place.
Let us study some beliefs common on Sikhism and other religions to explain this point. Hindus burn their dead and the Muslims bury them. The practice of burning their dead by Sikhs cannot be said to have been taken from Hinduism because the faith behind the action is totally different. Sikhism believes all practices, burning, burying, throwing in the water or any other method of disposing of the dead body equally good. These practices do neither any benefit nor any harm to the soul. This means Sikh adopt these methods without assigning any religious sanctity to these rituals which is not the case with other religions.
Similarly, in case Sikhs bury their dead it is not because Muslims do it. The same action is based again in a different philosophy. The latter do it because if the body is put on fire, the soul goes to hell, while the former do it, because it is a convenient method of disposing of the dead body. If the Sikhs throw their dead in the river to be consumed by the water life, the practice has not been taken from the Parsis who throw their dead to the vultures. All this proves that even when the same ritual is followed by Sikh it does not have the same meaning as in Hinduism or Islam.
If in Sikhism a particular spiritual thought, is same or similar to that of another religion, it is not an adoption from that religion because conceptually the two are different. The belief in only one God (not in many gods as in Hinduism) and non-worship of idols, have not been taken from the Muslim faith because the philosophy behind these practices is totally different in the two cases. According to the Muslim faith, a person becomes a believer in one God only if he embraces Islam otherwise he is a non-believer even when he holds a strong and sincere faith in God. According to this philosophy there must be two Gods, one for the Muslims and the other for the non-Muslims. This fact will be explained later. Here the purpose of stating this is that even with the same of similar rituals faith existing in Sikhism as in other religions, they cannot be made as a basis for concluding that Sikhism has been founded by taking good points both from Hinduism and Islam. It is a fundamentally new approach to the religion.
After this rather long introduction, I would like to state some fundamental beliefs of Sikhism.
*God*
Each faith of a sect has a name given to the Creator, the Almighty i.e. God, Father Allah, Ram, Gobind, Krishan ect. But any and every name for the Supreme power is accepted in Sikhism. The Adi Granth (uniquely the ever-existing Shabad Guru, not just a religion book) which enunciates the fundamentals of the Sikh faith contains all these and more names of God. It is emphatically asserted that Ram (God of Hindus) and Rahim (God of Muslims) is the same Power/Authority. According to the Adi Granth, therefore, there cannot be two religions, Puran (Hindus) and Quran (Islam) but only one religion, as there is only one God for the whole humanity. In addition to Ram, Rahim and Puram Quran, some more corresponding terms of the two religions have been so used as to depict a very close association between them through their similar rhythm. For example, "Baid" (Veda) and "Ktaib," the former meaning all Indian religious books and the latter meaning all books of the Western faith (Quran, Bible, Toroth Zachariah).
According to Sikhism there is no particular place specifically reserved and furnished for the abode of God like "Puri", seventh sky, ect. He lives in every one's, heart, black of white, eastern or western, low caste or high caste, good or bad, rich or poor.
The Adi Granth not only describes the existence of the all prevailing God, but it offers strong proof of the same. If more than one person independently observes a particular fact, it is regarded as a reality. There are many authors (out of which only 7 in addition to Nanak have been referred to later in this article) who belonged to different places, practiced different methods of worship, were born in different castes, suffered socially low status or enjoyed very high respects in the society but made the same observation "God lives in everybody, you love man if you want to love God."
*Sikhism defined*
The faith Guru Nanak possessed, preached and initiated humanity into, is that there is only one God, the whole universe is just a manifestation of it and he is therefore, everywhere and in every soul. That is why, Guru Nanak decried the divisions of humanity on any basis, religion, caste or color.
His first lesson, was "Neither there is any Hindu nor a Muslim" implying thereby that there cannot be two or more religions, there is only one God hence there can be only one religion. Though, born in a Hindu Khatri family, he refused to wear the sacred thread and he had no hesitation to go to a mosque for prayers because the God he 'saw' was not imprisoned in a temple. This shook the whole society. He went to Mecca (a place of Muslim worship) and Hardwar (a place of Hindu worship) to preach the same truth-give up the distinction of being a Hindu or a Muslim-all of us are human beings, we have no other religion than that.
He also demolished all the dividing walls of the four Varan-Ashrams in Hindu society. Brahmin and Sudra were not different. Birth in Brahmin family, does not make a person of higher, spiritual merit and being a Sudra does not deprive him of it.
He did not stop here. He challenged the status of Sanskrit as the language of gods and the elite. Sanskrit, he asserted, is no more sacred than Persian of any other language. He preached, that language of God is love, every human being can express it in Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Persian, Bengali, Gujrati, English or any other he knows. The people who believed that Sanskrit is the language of gods or Arabic is the language of Allah, found it difficult to agree with Nanak but the 'love' for all won him the place of honor and respect from all places of worship, both Hindu and Muslim.
*Practising Sikhism*
Was this all, the Guru did? No. He not only described this new faith, but also explained it and practiced it. To inculcate the feeling of oneness, he made all the people sit together as Sangat (a group of comrades). A Sudra and a Brahmin, a king and a beggar, a Muslim and a Hindu, all would sit together in a Sangat and sing the praise of the same God. When Guru Nanak expired people did not know, to which faith he belonged. Both Hindus and Muslims loved him, respected him and accepted him as their Guru but he was neither a Hindu nor a Muslim. He laid firm foundations of the new faith, the followers of which were known as students (Shish or Sikh) of truth. Having failed to label him as a Muslim or a Hindu, both raised memorials at the same place (Kartarpur on the right bank of the Ravi where he breathed his last) in his honour.
Was he dead? No; he is living even today. A unique principle he preached was, that not his body but the Words-"Shabad" said by him, are to be valued and respected as living Guru. His words (Gurbani, Adi Granth) are with us and would ever be. Therefore, he would continue to guide humanity to the right path as long as it cares to understand him and follow his teachings.
The first lesson of "Sangat" was followed by the second lesson of "Pangat"-eating together. As this would finish the caste barriers of the Hindu faith, high caste people complained against this "anti-Dharam" activity of the Guru (3rd Nanak) to the king Akbar who rejected their petition when he was told details of the Sikh faith by Bhai Jetha ji (later on 4th Nanak).
" Baoli"-a common source of water and "Sarovar" (Amritsar) the sacred bathing tank, were the next practical steps for totally removing the sectarian or narrow communal feelings from the minds of the people. All this was crowned by welcoming Mian Mir, a Muslim by name and rituals but a Sikh by faith, to lay the foundation stone of the world famous Sikh Shrine, The Golden Temple, in the center of the Amrit Sarovar, now in the city named Amritsar in Punjab, India.
Another big step was taken by the fifth Nanak, who compiled the Adi Granth to be placed in the Golden Temple. It contained the writings of not only of the Gurus but also of many other persons who 'saw' the God living everywhere and in everyone, high and low, rich and poor. The first Nanak during his travels in India and abroad had collected their writings i.e. 'bani' or "shabad".
Why did the fifth Nanak do so? Why did he bring them at par with the Gurus? Were the writings of the Gurus not sufficient to give the guidelines of the faith preached by them? Inclusion of the writings of the persons was deliberate and had a deeper significance. It was to give a proof that anyone with any 'faith,' any caste, any place, who sincerely worships Him, will realize Him and find Him in ever heart. through this unique step, it was declared and preached that it is absurd to say that there is only one particular name of the God and there is only one particular method of worship to realize Him of find Him and reach Him. It was to be taught emphatically to all that any name and say method is right if there is sincerity behind the action and it is wrapped in pious love. The experiences of those seekers who "found" Him, were recorded for eternity in the Adi Granth. It must be taken not of that these persons were born in different religions, were of different castes and adopted different rituals but realized (experienced) the existence of the same God everywhere and in everyone. Here is what, a few of them whose writings are included in the Adi Granth, have said:
1. Rama Nanda was a Gaur Brahmin, Vaishanava. When he perceived the existence of the God in all and everywhere, he questioned the validity of outward rituals and announced "I need go nowhere. I have realized that all pervading god in my own heart as well" [Page 1195]
2. Kabir who was never weaver and brought up under Muslim environment spoke the same thing "God has created all beings from the same source and He Himself is existing in all of them and everywhere" [Page 1349]
3. Namdev was Maharashtrian calico-printer. Through sincere devotion he too reached the same stage of spiritual attainment-"In every body, there is the same God who speaks. Who else than God can be there to speak in every person?" [Page 988 ]
4. Sheikh Farid a Muslim who followed all Mohammedan rituals advises us: "If you want to love God, do not injure the feelings of any-one because He resides in everybody"[Page 1384 ]
5. Bhikhan another Muslim devotee also came to the same conclusion and said "Wherever I see, It is He Who is there" [page 659 ]
6. Ravidass : a cobbler, Sudra by caste, when he attained the stage of God-realization, even the Brahmins fell at his feet. He also came to the same conclusion "There is no second or third, it is the same God Himself everywhere" [Page 345 ]
7. Pipa a Raja and a disciple of Rama Nand has his own way of expressing the same feelings. "The God which prevails in the whole universe also resides in my own heart too. Anyone who search Him will find Him." [Page 695 ]
According to the Adi Granth, therefore there is one God and one humanity, hence only one religion. The Creator can be given any name-Allah, Ram, Gobind, Wahe-Guru, Hari, Krishan, God. Followers of this faith as stated earlier go the popular name, Shish (Sikh) which means a student (a disciple) of spirituality, Sikhism, therefore, is not communal in the narrow sense like some other religions and can be named as Humanism.
Some persons preach the philosophy that all religions are good. No, this is not acceptable to a Sikh. He would not accept any religion to be good if it believes a person to be low or high because of his birth. The distinction of being a Brahmin or Sudra by birth is against the basic tenets of Sikh faith. A man is as he behaves and not as he is born. Any one who loves Brahma (God) is a Brahmin even if he was born in any of the so called low-castes. Any faith which divides humanity on any basis, colour, caste or religion cannot be agreed to be a good religion.
Another fact which distinguishes it fundamentally from other religions is that they claim that their founders were specially sent by God' as Avtar/Prophet or His son. A follower of these must observe all the rituals prescribed by that guide and must utter a particular word, only then the prophet (the Avtar) will help him to obtain salvation. Sikhism is basically opposite to it. It simply tells ANYONE who loves human beings irrespective to their faith, (Hindu, Muslim, or Christian) birth (caste), social status, education (learned pandit or illiterate) and remembers Him with sincere mind would attain salvation/realize God. Sikhism does not make it obligatory for a devotee to accept a particular prophet to have been sent by God to save him and take his sins on himself.
By now, the reader would appreciate the ideas that Sikhism is not just another faith like so many other faiths. It is a catholic faith for the whole humanity. Anyone who studies Adi Granth in depth, will reach, this conclusion. H.L. Bradshaw has thus highlighted this unique aspect of the new faith:
"Sikhism is a Universal world faith-with a message for all men. This is amply illustrated in the writings of the Gurus. Sikhs must cease to think of their Faith as "just another good religion" and must begin to think in terms of SIKHISM being the religion for this New Age....... The religion preached by Guru Nanak is the faith of the New Age. It completely supplants and fulfills all the former dispensations or older religions. Books must be written proving this. THE OTHER RELIGIONS CONTAIN TRUTH BUT SIKHISM CONTAINS THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH........"
Bradshaw has found many more valuable things in the Guru Granth Sahib. he continues "Guru Granth Sahib of all the world religious scriptures were all concerned only with this world and its spiritual counterpart. To imply that they spoke of other worlds as does the Guru Granth Sahib, is to stretch their obvious meanings out of context. The Sikh religion is truly the answer to the problems of Modern Man."
*Who is a Sikh?*
A Sikh is not he who knows all about the principles and philosophy of Sikhism, and can scholarly explain it and effectively preach it. To be a Sikh, is to act according to his faith which may mean sacrificing all the comforts, wealth and even one's life. After giving the philosophy of the faith, the 10th Nanak wanted volunteers who would accept the faith in toto i.e. not just believe in it but live up to it. The first five who offered their lives for it, were initiated into it, and called Panj Piaras-The Five Beloved Ones. Others followed them and were collectively designated as the Khalsa. The responsibility given to them, in today's terminology, would be Honorary Army of the United Nations for the rule of Truth and love for the whole humanity. Five symbols ("Kachah", a special type of underwear; "Kara", wrist iron ring; "Kirpan," sword; "Kesh," un-cut hair; "Kanga," comb) were given to them for having been initiated into this army.
The history is filled with numerous examples, when the Sikhs gladly underwent un-told sufferings and sacrificed themselves just to uphold the principles that all humanity is one. They would help the poor and even die for them irrespective of their religion, or caste (because the Sikhs believed that God lived in their hearts too). Guru Teg Bahadur did not offer his head because the Hindu Dharm was in danger because a tyrant was making innocent people suffer an inhuman oppression. He would have done the same thing if a Hindu king had committed atrocities on the Muslims. Did not Guru Nanak sympathize with the innocent Muslim Pathans who suffered when Mughal King Babar attacked Punjab? Did not Guru Gobind Singh help Bahadur Shah, son (the rightful heir of Delhi Kingdom) of Aurangzeb against his younger son who tried to get the kingdom by force. One can understand the greatness of Guru Gobind Singh only if he remembers that Aurangzeb killed not only his father, his sons but also his large number of Sikhs. The Guru still struck to his principles-Help those who are in need of it and deserve it.
Now to conclude, it can be said safely, without any fear of contradiction that Guru Nanak laid the foundation of a non-sectarian, universal faith for the whole humanity, not just another religion. Unfortunately, those who claim to follow it, have mis-understood it and describe it only as modern religion or at the most a happy blend of what is good in Hinduism and Islam. Further it has been limited to the rituals of doing or not doing something and eating or not eating certain foods. it is limited sometimes to the identity (5 K's) given to the followers which is to express their conviction in the faith and not faith itself. Sikhism cannot be confined to these narrow bounds. It is not just a new religion; it is a way of life for the new man-the man who believes all men are brethren and children of the same God and its mission is to work for the welfare of all and when the occasion demands to sacrifice his all for this ideal.​
                                   __________________
*PrIdw kwl^ØI ijnI n rwivAw DaulI rwvY koie ]
*
Against the backdrop of his day IMHO everything Guru Nanak preached was new. These were all new idea*s. *It represents a new world view. *
*


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## spnadmin (Jul 11, 2009)

There are 2 shabads and some other interesting information related to the thread topic on this blog *Which Heaven?  Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog*
I encourage you to read them. 
And another perspective and on the topic of the thread - Here the angle is slightly different  - "Thus, Gurmat is the only path to Sach Khand, i.e. merging with God." 
 *If all Paths are equal then why was the Sikh religion started?*

Source: If all Paths are equal then why was the Sikh religion started? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net

						 						 									                      It is a ‘totally false’ argument that Sikhism believes all paths lead to the same goal and thus all religions are equal. From its very inception, Gurmat (the Guru’s Path) has been declared a unique and distinct path. Bhai Gurdaas Ji writes:


 ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿੱਕਾ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥ ਚਲਾਯਾ॥
“In the world, Guru Nanak Sahib Ji established the authority (of his doctrines) and started a Path (of religion), devoid of any impurity.”
(Vaar 1, Pauree 45 – Bhai Gurdaas Ji)


 The claim that all paths lead to the same goal is covered in Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh Ji’s book ‘Anhad Shabad Dasam Duar - Open discussion of unstruck ethereal music at tenth door of abode-divine’, pages 46-47:


 "The Liberation-state of Gurmat is unique and different in concept from other religious faiths. Liberation is not the mere ending-up of the human body or just an escapement of the soul from its bodily cage. Some envisage liberation as riddance from afflictions associated with the human body. They believe liberation is unattainable as so long as the soul is caged within the human body. Others identify liberation as the fulfillment of their desires to abide in a heavenly abode. However, this kind of liberation falls very short compared to the Gurmat concept of liberation. Liberation is not the banishment of imagined pain and sorrow, nor can it be described as the disassociation of the soul-being from materialism. Yogic faith conceives liberation as empty consciousness through meditational practices that bear no semblance to the Gurmat concept. Vedantic faith believes in the removal of duality to arrive at oneness with The Absolute, in order to be liberated. Buddhism believes liberation to be a state of total renunciation of desire and negative thought - Nirvaana. Jainism considers that non-violence and non-killing leads to liberation. Mere escape from transmigration is not the essence of True Liberation....


 Gurmat considers the above listed forms of liberation as halfway and incomplete. The swan-bird Gurmukhs who are blessed with Divine Enlightenment reject all these forms. They merge with The Divine Immaculate Light whilst living; they envision The Glorious Lord in full Divine Splendour.


 Gurmukhs are sustained by the nourishment of Naam-Divine, while they behold The Lord at all times. They find True Liberation within this Love-Divine...Their Liberation lies in the sole occupation of Naam-Devotion, in accordance with Gurmat. This supreme state is reached through complete dedication, when one takes refuge within The Guru...what is not sought is a form of liberation devoid of God-Realisation."


 If we use this viewpoint to analyse some mainstream schools of thought, we may reach the following conclusions:


 In Hindu or Vedantic traditions, Liberation = various states according to different schools i.e. freedom from transmigration, realisation of self as God (Sohang) etc.


 In Buddhism, Liberation = realisation of the nature of self/ escape from desires/ Nirvaana.


 In Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Liberation = heavenly abode/ paradise


*In Sikhi, Liberation = absorption into Vaheguru/Naam, the destruction of self/ego, the merging of Aatma (soul) into ParAatma (Universal Soul) - all of which can only be achieved through complete dedication to The Guru's Teachings.*

 The concept of equality exemplified by Sikhi is not the result of a debate concerning which paths are more (or less) efficient and ultimately productive; equality is not based upon such rational discussions or language games. The Sikhi concept of equality is an inward and outward acceptance of all and seeing everyone as a soul rather than religious labels, which results directly from the practice of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee's teachings.


 When it comes to true enlightenment, or liberation, Guru jee is very clear about its unique nature and definition within Gurmat; and in doing so we are taught who and what really is The True Teacher.


 Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee over and over stresses the importance of "Gurmat Naam". Without Gurmat Naam no one can merge in Vaheguru or reach ‘Sach Khand’ (the spiritual state of Truth). In the House of Guru Nanak only Naam is found, the only tool to experience and merge into God.


 ਏਹੁ ਅਹੇਰਾ ਕੀਨੋ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੪॥੪॥
“God has given this gift. Nanak’s home is filled with only Naam, the Name of Vaheguru. ||4||4||
(Ang 1136)


 Without Naam, no one can be liberated and merge with God. Gurbani is clear about this fact:
 ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੀ ਤਰੁ ਤੂ ਤਾਰੀ ॥੯॥੭॥
“Those enshrined the True Name within their heart, those within is the flowing current of Naam, and those whose consciousness is attached to the vibrations of the Guru's Baani obtain all comforts and liberation from Maya (the illusionary world). O Nanak! Without the Naam, no one is saved; You too swim across to the other side this true way in which there no chance of drowning. ||9||7||”
(Ang 1013)


 Sikhi is unique by the fact that it does not condemn others to Hell or say if you are not Sikh you are eternally damned. Rather a Sikh prays at least twice daily for "Sarbat Da Bhallaa", meaning the good and prosperity of all Humanity regardless of religion, belief or faith.


 ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਚੜਦੀ ਕਲਾ। ਤੇਰੇ. ਭਾਣੇ ਸਰਬੱਤ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ।
"May the Divine-Name preached by Nanak be exalted. May all prosper and be blessed within Your Will."
(Daily Sikh Ardaas)


 All faiths will get what they work towards. Guru Nanak Sahib jee is the only True Guru who has preached Naam, and given Gurmat-Naam. Only Gurmat has a concept such as Sach Khand and God-Realisation in such a clear way. Thus, Gurmat is the only path to Sach Khand, i.e. merging with God.


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## spnadmin (Jul 11, 2009)

What now is new that Guru Nanak has created? We can find some of these new ideas within the Shabad, spoken by Guru Arjan Dev in the House of Guru Nanak.


The lines quoted by respected Josh Martin ji 

 ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥ 
so panddith jo man parabodhhai ||
He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.

  ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥ 
raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

Guru Arjan Dev is saying Do not look to anyone else, nor look outside in ceremony, rituals, and cleansing baths. Guru Nanak is saying  look within because a true Pandit, a gyani, instructs his own mind and searches for wisdom int the form of the Naam within his own soul. This is not given to him but found in the Sat Nam

Their fuller meaning becomes alive in the context of the full shabad.

ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ 
bhagouthee bhagavanth bhagath kaa rang ||
The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God.

ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥ 
sagal thiaagai dhusatt kaa sang ||
He forsakes the company of all wicked people.
  

 ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥ 
man thae binasai sagalaa bharam ||
All doubts are removed from his mind.
  

 ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥ 
kar poojai sagal paarabreham ||
He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all.

  ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ 
saadhhasang paapaa mal khovai ||
In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away.
  

 ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ 
this bhagouthee kee math ootham hovai ||
The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme.
  

 ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਨੀਤਿ ॥ 
bhagavanth kee ttehal karai nith neeth ||
He constantly performs the service of the Supreme Lord God.

  ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਬਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥ 
man than arapai bisan pareeth ||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Love of God.

  ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
har kae charan hiradhai basaavai ||
The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart.

  ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ 
naanak aisaa bhagouthee bhagavanth ko paavai ||3||
O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||
  
*
 ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥ 
so **panddith jo man parabodhhai ||
He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.


*  *ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥ 
raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

*   ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ॥ 
raam naam saar ras peevai ||
He drinks in the Exquisite Nectar of the Lord's Name.
  

 ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕੈ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥ 
ous panddith kai oupadhaes jag jeevai ||
By that Pandit's teachings, the world lives.

  v  ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
har kee kathhaa hiradhai basaavai ||
He implants the Sermon of the Lord in his heart.

  ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ 
so panddith fir jon n aavai ||
Such a Pandit is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again.
  

 ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.
  

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥ 
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.
  

 ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥ 
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥ 
naanak ous  panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||

What is new about the devotee who loves the sermon of the Lord and that had not been given before? The perspective is entirely new. Instruction, devotion, jaap, none of this is restricted to some layers of society and foribidden to others.  Nanak, Guru Nanak, bows in salutation to the bhaugautee who instructs his own mind, and who plants the sermon of the Lord in his own heart. No middle man is required to mediate the relaitonship with the Satguru. It is a new perspective, because this is a pandit who is not driven by fear of the social structure of his day. The Pandit that Nanak bows to instructs his own mind with the Naam and gives instruction to everyone.


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## Satyaban (Jul 11, 2009)

Ekmusafir Ajnabi said in August of 2007 "By definition in the Encarta Dictionary Ahimsa – “not harming living things” the Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist philosophy of revering all life and refraining from harm to any living thing. Indeed it is a wonderful thought. It is only a concept that can never go into practice. From the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep and in sleep thereafter there are thousands of bacteria that are dying day and night to keep this body in service. Why because our body is the supreme life on earth. Even the Devtas are yearning to have a body in order to exit from the realm of Brahm to beyond Brahma (Par Braham)".
 While that is true it carries the point to absurdity, to be equally absurd the human body being dead feeds more organisms than it ever did while alive. Anyway the point here is karma and the difference treading on an ant while walking or striking another person or eating a steak is huge so we must do the best we can in deed and thought. This is why karma has to be in the realm of holy men and saints not academic types.

 Peace
 Satyaban

 Peace
 Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Jul 11, 2009)

Satyaban ji

You have given the opinion of Ek Musafir Ajnabi, former SPN member. And it is true that he subscribes to the notion that a human guru is necessary to take a person to the Guru and mukhti. He has told me this personally in private messages, email. And he has stated such on the forum as you have demonstrated. His opinion is an opinon that deviates from a core belief of Sikhism which states that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only Guru. IMHO there is a certain amount of silliness in the idea tha karma has to be in the hands of sants and not academic types, as karma is a universal condition, an equal opportunity challenger who excludes no one; AND sants and academic types are not the only "types" who are affected by it. 

Appearances are deceiving.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 11, 2009)

*His conclusion does not follow his premise.* 
We need holy men because we are killing organisms every second, and thats bad karma.  That's what it reads to me. Care to explain?


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## Satyaban (Jul 12, 2009)

What I said was, although apparently not too clearly I will take my advice on karma from saints and holy men such as Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Ramakrishna and Sat Guru Subramuniyaswami as opposed an academic. Who knows more of spiritual matters?
To throw out the principle of "ahimsa" because of what some academic says about killing bacteria is ridiculous. As I said before the killing of bacteria or stepping on an ant while walking pales in the karma incurred in harming a dog or a human.
Upon rereading I think my post was really pretty clear.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

Satyaban ji

This most recent post is very clear. Thank you for taking the time to clarify.


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## Astroboy (Jul 12, 2009)

Is all             teaching in vain?
"True wisdom can be acquired by practice only. Practice the             truth that thy brother is the same as thou. 
Walk in the noble path             of righteousness and 
thou wilt understand that while there is death             in self, there is immortality in truth."

World Mysteries - Near Death Experience, Life After Death & Reincarnation


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

namjap said:


> Is all             teaching in vain?
> "True wisdom can be acquired by practice only. Practice the             truth that thy brother is the same as thou.
> Walk in the noble path             of righteousness and
> thou wilt understand that while there is death             in self, there is immortality in truth."
> ...



But this does not mean that unity = uniformity, or that it should. We sometimes should consider how imposition of sameness, sometime quite brutally,  has historically created more strife than the acceptance of differences.


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## Astroboy (Jul 12, 2009)

> But this does not mean that unity = uniformity, or that it should. We sometimes should consider how imposition of sameness, sometime quite brutally, has historically created more strife than the acceptance of differences.


Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

If only man should understand to pursue the true aspects of natural law and not the illusionary, then things will be more favorable to man himself. For example, in Asa Di War the tuk - Paani ander leek jui this da thao na theyau - means you cannot find a permanent mark when you attempt to draw a line on water.

Let's read about a Buddhist thought; the following dialogue is an excerpt from the same link reference as my previous post.

Self is death and truth is life. The cleaving to self             is a perpetual dying, while moving in the truth is partaking of             Nirvana which is life everlasting."             Then Kutadanta said: "Where, O venerable Master, is             Nirvana?" "*Nirvana is wherever the precepts are obeyed*             replied the Blessed One.
             "Do I understand thee aright," rejoined the Brahman,             "That Nirvana is not a place, and being nowhere it is without             reality?" "Thou dost not understand me aright," said             the Blessed One, "Now listen and answer these questions: Where             does the wind dwell
             "Nowhere," was the reply.
             Buddha retorted: "Then, sir, there is no such thing as             wind." Kutadanta made no reply; and the Blessed One asked             again: "Answer me, O Brahman, where does wisdom dwell? Is             wisdom a locality?"
             "Wisdom has no allotted dwelling-place replied Kutadanta.             Said the Blessed One: "Meanest thou that there is no wisdom, no             enlightenment, no righteousness, and no salvation, because Nirvana             is not a locality? As a great and mighty wind which passeth over the             world in the heat of the day, so the Tathagata comes to blow over             the minds of mankind with the breath of his love, so cool, so sweet,             so calm, so delicate; and those tormented by fever assuage their             suffering and rejoice at the refreshing breeze."


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

NamJap ji

I think once before in a similar conversation between us I remarked that nirvana would not be imposed on the unwilling. People have to be free to make some of these choices.

Here is a tag line from history where there was Oneness equaled Uniformity, and Uniformity equaled Oppression.

_He had his son Gobind Singh consecrated Guru and successor on 8th July 1675, and then left Anandpur for Delhi with 3 other Sikhs who knew as well the danger they were to face, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dayal Das. It seems orders for his arrest had been issued by emperor Aurangzeb as soon as he received reports of his declared intention, because he was arrested four days later. An entry in Bhatt Vahi Multani Sindhi reads: _
_Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Guru,… …was taken into custody by Nur Muhammad Khan Miraza of Ropar Police post, on Savan 12,1732 /12th July 1675, at Malikpur Ranghran, Pargana Ghanaula, and sent to Sirhind. Along with him were arrested Diwan Mati Das and Sati Das, sons of Hira Nand Chhibbar, and Dyal Das, son of Mai Das. They were kept in custody at Bassi Pathana for four months. The pitiless captors imposed much atrocity on the Guru. He was then cast into an iron cage and taken to Delhi, where he arrived on 4th Nov. 1675.  http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur

*
One who accepted and defended religious differences was our 9th Guru*. _Guru Tej Bahdur accepted differences and even was willing to defend "differences" and the right to have religious difference and diversity. Aurangzeb was a fervent believer in Oneness. He disrespected diverse religious traditions and would go to no limit to demonstrate in his own way that all DISRUPTION AND STRIFE BETWEEN RELIGIONS COULD BE EASILY RESOLVVED IF EVERYONE WERE TO ACCEPT THE IDEA TO WORSHIP THE SAME GOD.


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## Astroboy (Jul 12, 2009)

> I think once before in a similar conversation between us I remarked that nirvana would not be imposed on the unwilling. People have to be free to make some of these choices.



I think every religion has a term for everlasting bliss and state of experienced spiritual ecstasy. 

Nirvana means the subsiding of all human passions. 
When ultimately the soul at its journey's end reaches the True Home of the Father and sees the splendour of Godhood in the ineffable resplendent light, one begins to see God in everything in the Universe. When Christ and Buddha rose above the body consciousness, they referred to the Way as leading to the Kingdom of God and the Nirvana pad respectively. The Muslims call it Muqam-i-Haq, and the Christians, New Jerusalem. Thereafter, Christ used to say: "Behold the Lord." And Guru Nanak would exclaim: "The Lord of Nanak is visible everywhere." The Sage of Dakshneshwar, Sri Rama Krishna Parmhans, when questioned by young Naren, as Swami Vivekananda was then known, whether he had seen God, replied: "Yes, my child, I have seen Him as clearly as I see you; nay, more than that."
This state baffles all description. The Muslim saints declare this condition as "Hairat, Hairat," and the Hindus, as "Aschraj, Aschraj" and the Sikhs, as "Waho, Waho", all of which are expressions of wonder. The teachings of most of the saints amongst Hindus and Muslims refer as far as Brahm. Very rarely do we find in them references to Parbrahm. 

SPIRITUALITY: A Peep Inside


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

NamJap ji

Most of what you say is likely indisputable. Looking for areas of sameness is not what worries me about conversations like this. In fact it is healthy to examine where areas of agreement can be found. That is an important step to overcoming religious intolerance.

My suspicions lie with the idea that all religions are the same, worship the same God, are headed in the same direction -- none of that is true -- all of it is oversimplification and shows a lack of respect for the facts. The only way for such grand over-generalizations to be true is by using force to make the idea of a singleness of truth to become a fact.
Every historical effort to Impose the idea of sameness, oneness, unity, etc. has been marked by bloodshed and oppression was a movement that dishonored what was unique in the religion of another. There are 2 ways to impose sameness/oneness: the b******y way and the bloodless way. The b******y way we are familiar with: religious persecution and oppression in which overlords try to re-write history. See above. 

There are many other famous examples. The bloodless way is through the imposition of "political correctness" or its close cousin, attempting to create ideas that are acceptable based on thinking of a self-styled intelligentsia. We are in this decade experiencing the bloodless form of religious oppression. We are asked to imbibe the rhetoric of groups that are impressed with the apparent merits of their theories of oneness. They cannot see how they are actually dishonoring all religions. Or maybe they do see that and *actually want to dishonor religions*. And if the latter is true, then intellectually they are little different from a  Moghul overlord.


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## Josh martin (Jul 12, 2009)

namjap said:


> Is all             teaching in vain?
> "True wisdom can be acquired by practice only. Practice the             truth that thy brother is the same as thou.
> Walk in the noble path             of righteousness and
> thou wilt understand that while there is death             in self, there is immortality in truth."
> ...



Do no mean to interfere in kaur/namji's discussion.  Death in self, immortality in truth. I like this.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 12, 2009)

*DEAD WHILE ALIVE/ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤ*​ 
*ABSTRACT*​ 
This term in Sikh thought is applied to those who get enlightened with spiritual wisdom. Their mental tranquility and thinking are not affected by ordinary worldly affairs. They are asleep as to worldly concerns. Life is the teacher of all teachers. Knowing this, we can all pass on the lessons of our lives to guide others on their own paths. We should however perform this role as a guide in humility. When we stop our own development, we stop living in any significant sense. The flame goes out when we stop loving. It goes out when materialism and egoism overpower us. We can release our spirit from this bondage through spiritual development, if we continuously keep exploring our new inner state. This is an art to maintaining the spiritual fire and ripening the fruits of life's labors. In this state one is both here and not here, in thought and not in thought, and simultaneously alive and dead through the Sabd says Guru Nanak in Raag Parbhati;


ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਜਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ ਸਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਚਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥ 

_Jīvan mukaṯ jā sabaḏ suṇā▫e. Sacẖī rahaṯ sacẖā sukẖ pā▫e. Man māre jīvaṯ mar jāṇ. Nānak naḏrī naḏar pacẖẖāṇ._ 

One is dead and liberated while yet alive, by listening to the Sabd. Living a truthful way of life, one finds true peace. Whoever subdues his mind, knows the state of being dead while yet alive. O Nanak, by Its Grace, the Gracious Akal Purkh is realized. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page 1343

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is the reality? 

The "reality" is made up of different realms. 

1. The physical realm.

2. The mental realm.

3. Spiritual realm. 

Physical realm truly exists. It is not an illusion as represented in some other religions. The trees that we see, the cars, the buildings, the big cities, rivers, mountains, planet Earth, they all exist. This physical reality is the same for everybody. We or our instruments may observer and measure the same phenomena. But the interpretation of this physical reality is not the same for everyone. Inner perception of the outer reality varies from individual to individual. Hence one may say that the mental realm is an illusion. The perception of the spiritual realm, however, occurs in a conscious state of mind. In this state reason and emotion both speak with the same voice. Few attain this state except in dreams so it is difficult to say whether the spiritual realm truly exists. It may be an illusion. It could be a spiritual experience. For that we turn to Sabd Guru.
Guru Amardas in Raag Asa describes the only way to cross this worldly ocean (ਭਵਜਲੁ). is being dead while alive through love and devotional worship of the all Knower by understanding the Word or Sabd. On this path to emancipation one must shed his ego and reflect on the teachings at each step of a householder’s existence:

ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਬੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਨਲ ਵਾਉ ॥ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਘਟਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਬੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਨਲ ਵਾਉ ॥ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਘਟਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ਪਾਖੰਡਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਇ ॥ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ਹਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ਨਿਹਚਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

_Niraṯ karė baho vājė vajā¬ė. Ih man anḏẖā bolā hai kis ākẖ suṇā¬ė.Anṯar lobẖ bẖaram anal vā¬o. Ḏīvā balai na sojẖī pā¬ė. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ gẖat cẖānaṇ ho¬ė. Āp pacẖẖāṇ milai parabẖ so¬ė. Gurmukẖ niraṯ har lāgai bẖā¬o. Pūrė ṯāl vicẖahu āp gavā¬ė. Mėrā parabẖ sācẖā āpė jāṇ. Gur kai sabaḏ anṯar barahm pacẖẖāṇ. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ anṯar parīṯ pi¬ār. Gur kā sabaḏ sahj vīcẖār. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ jugaṯ sacẖ so¬ė. Pakẖand bẖagaṯ niraṯ ḏukẖ ho¬ė. Ėhā bẖagaṯ jan jīvaṯ marai. Gur parsādī bẖavjal ṯarai. Gur kai bacẖan bẖagaṯ thā¬ė pā¬ė. Har jī¬o āp vasai man ā¬ė. Har kirpā karė saṯgurū milā¬ė. Nihcẖal bẖagaṯ har si¬o cẖiṯ lā¬ė. Bẖagaṯ raṯė ṯinĥ sacẖī so¬ė. Nānak nām raṯė sukẖ ho¬ė._

Mind is blind, deaf and impervious to devotion; even one may perform ritual dancing with orchestral music in devotional worship. Deep within us are the fire of greed, and the dust-storm of doubt. The lamp of knowledge is not burning, and understanding is not obtained. The Guru willed has the light of devotional worship within his heart. Understanding his own self, he meets God. A Guru willed dances to embrace the love for his Akal Purkh, to the beat of the drum as he sheds his ego from within. His God is true. God Itself is the Knower of all. Through the Word of the Guru's Sabd, we recognize the Creator Akal Purkh within ourselves. A Gurmukh is filled with devotional love for the Beloved God. He intuitively reflects upon the Word of the Guru's Sabd. For the Guru willed, loving devotional worship is the way to the True Akal Purkh. But the dances and the worship of the hypocrites bring only pain. True Devotion is to remain dead while yet alive. By Guru's Grace, one crosses over the terrible world-ocean. Through the Guru's Teachings, one's devotion is accepted, and then, the Dear Akal Purkh It self comes to dwell in the mind. When the God bestows Its Mercy, and leads us to meet the True Guru. At this stage, one's devotion becomes steady. His consciousness gets centered upon the Akal Purkh. Those immersed in Devotion gain a true reputation. O Nanak, in contemplation of the Naam, peace is obtained. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, Page, 364-14 & 15

Gurus Amardas, Arjan and Bhagats Kabir and Namdev express their views on this subject in the following Ragas to achieve that state through Grace of God/Guru;

ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਤਜਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥ਧੰਧਾ ਧਾਵਤ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ਲਾਗਾ ਸਾਚਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ਸਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਸਾਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥

_Saṯgur sėv man nirmalā ha¬umai ṯaj vikār. Āp cẖẖod jīvaṯ marai gur kai sabaḏ vīcẖār. Ḏẖanḏẖā ḏẖāvaṯ reh ga¬ė lāgā sācẖ pi¬ār. Sacẖ raṯė mukẖ ujlė ṯiṯ sācẖai ḏarbār._

Serving the True Guru, the mind becomes immaculate and pure; egotism and corruption are discarded. So abandon your selfishness, and remain dead while yet alive by Contemplating on the Word of the Guru's Sabd. The pursuit of worldly affairs comes to an end, when you embrace love for the True One. Those who are attuned to Truth, their faces are radiant in the Court of the True Akal Purkh. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 34-10

ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਇ ॥ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥

_Ėhā bẖagaṯ jan jīvaṯ marai. Gur parsādī bẖavjal ṯarai. Gur kai bacẖan bẖagaṯ thā¬ė pā¬ė. Har jī¬o āp vasai man ā¬ė._

True Devotion is to remain dead while yet alive. By Guru's Grace, one crosses over the terrible world-ocean. Through the Guru's Teachings, one's devotion is accepted, and then, the Dear Akal Purkh It self comes to dwell in the mind. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 365-1

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਉਲਟੀ ਭਈ ਭਾਈ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਬੂਝ ਪਾਇ॥ਸੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੋਸਿਖੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿਮਿਲਾਇ॥ 

_Saṯgur mili¬ai ultī bẖa¬ī bẖā¬ī jīvaṯ marai ṯā būjẖ pā¬ė. So gurū so sikẖ hai bẖā¬ī jis joṯī joṯ milā¬ė._

Meeting the True Guru, one turns away from the world, O Siblings of Destiny. When he remains dead while yet alive, he obtains a true understanding. He alone is the Guru, and he alone is a Disciple, O Siblings of Destiny, whose light merges in the Light. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 602-17

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੀਵੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਸੋਈ ਪਾਏ ਜਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥

_Gur parsādī jīvaṯ marai mar jīvai sabaḏ kamā¬ė. Mukaṯ ḏu¬ārā so¬ī pā¬ė je vicẖahu āp gavā¬ė._

By Guru's Grace, the mortal dies in life, and by so dying, lives to practice the Word of the Sabd. He alone finds the Door of Salvation, who eradicates self-conceit from within himself. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1276-5

ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾਂ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ॥ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰੈ ॥

_Karam hovai ṯāŉ sėvā karai. Gur parsādī jīvaṯ marai. An¬ḏin sācẖ nām ucẖrai. In biḏẖ parāṇī ḏuṯar ṯarai._

If the Akal Purkh is merciful, then the mortal is allowed to serve It. By Guru's Grace, he remains dead while yet alive. Night and day, he chants the True Name; in this way, he crosses over the treacherous world-ocean. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1172-6

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਸਵਾਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ 

_Jīvaṯ marai mar maraṇ savārai. Gur kai sabaḏ sācẖ ur ḏẖārai._

One who dies while yet alive, truly dies, and embellishes his death. Through the Word of the Guru's Sabd, he enshrines the True Akal Purkh within his heart. 
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Basant, AGGS, 1174-17

ਣਾਣਾ ਰਣ ਤੇ ਸੀਝੀਐ ਆਤਮ ਜੀਤੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ਹਉਮੈ ਅਨ ਸਿਉ ਲਰਿ ਮਰੈ ਸੋ ਸੋਭਾ ਦੂ ਹੋਇ ॥ਮਣੀ ਮਿਟਾਇ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ਮਨੂਆ ਜੀਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਹ ਸੂਰਤਣ ਵੇਸ ॥

_Ņāṇā raṇ ṯė sījẖī¬ai āṯam jīṯai ko¬ė. Ha¬umai an si¬o lar marai so sobẖā ḏū ho¬ė. Maṇī mitā¬ė jīvaṯ marai gur pūrė upḏės. Manū¬ā jīṯai har milai ṯih sūrṯaṇ vės._

NANNA: One, who conquers his own conscience, wins the battle of life. One, who dies, while fighting against egotism and alienation, becomes sublime and beautiful. One who eradicates his ego, remains dead while yet alive, through the Teachings of the Perfect Guru. He conquers his mind, and meets the Akal Purkh; he is dressed in robes of honor. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 256-15

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

_Jīvaṯ marai bujẖai parabẖ so¬ė. Ŧis jan karam parāpaṯ ho¬ė._

One who remains dead while yet alive understands God. He meets that humble being according to the karma of his past actions. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 741-9

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਮਰੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੀਵੈ ਐਸੇ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਭਵਜਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

_Jīvaṯ marai marai fun jīvai aisė sunn samā¬i¬ā. Anjan māhi niranjan rahī¬ai bahuṛ na bẖavjal pā¬i¬ā._

One, who remains dead while yet alive, will live even after death. He merges thus into the Primal Void of the Absolute Akal Purkh. Remaining pure in the midst of impurity, he will never again fall into the terrifying world-ocean. -----Kabir, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 332-16

ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤਰੈ ॥ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਤ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥

_Ja¬o gurḏė¬o ṯa baikunṯẖ ṯarai. Ja¬o gurḏė¬o ṯa jīvaṯ marai._

By the Grace of the Divine Guru, one swims across to heaven. By the Grace of the Divine Guru, one remains dead while yet alive. -----Namdev, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1166-14

*Conclusion:*

One needs more than just mental control over the body, in his journey on a spiritual path. He also needs some psychokinetic control over the external world as well. This is achieved through Guru’s Grace. Human consciousness can transcend simple linear time. It is also possible to develop precognition and spiritual wisdom based on an understanding of the Word and reflecting on it. This can only happen, when the five senses are stilled and thinking has ceased. When the intellect does not stir, one can enjoy the tranquility of mind and reach the highest state of spirituality. This is accomplished by subjugating the lower instincts of lust, anger, attachment, pride, and greed and by letting God in. Then one can realize the Godly instincts of Truth, Contentment, Compassion, Faith and fortitude. Guru Nanak describes the techniques of liberation in Raag Asa;

ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥ਮਨੁ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਜੰਮਾਇ ਲੈ ਇਉ ਪਾਵਸਿ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥

_Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā¬o sāringpāṇī. Man kirsāṇ har riḏai jammā¬ė lai i¬o pāvas paḏ nirbāṇī._

Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Akal Purkh, who holds the entire world in Its hands. Let your mind be the farmer; the Akal Purkh shall sprout in your heart, and you shall attain the state of Nirvana. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 23-15

Virinder S.Grewal


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## Satyaban (Jul 12, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur:
I appreciate your previous post very much but speaking for myself I can let my intellect sometimes complicate simple issues. One of my favorite saints Sri Paramahansa Ramakrishna experienced most religions and for lack of a better term found them all valuable, that is to say he found a commonality in them all that was good. He determined that all religions worshipped God and not a false one and that all religions could lead to liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth whether it was in their belief system or not because they worked to absolve karma. So in general all religions were heading in the same direction. Of course dogma and doctrine and make things cloudy sometimes but I am an optimist in such matters.

It is not my position that all religions are the same, that would be really stupid of me, but they have much more in common than many will admit.

Peace
Satyaban


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## vegangoth (Jul 12, 2009)

While this may be ( slightly) off topic It might be relevent ( just lol) On a TV discussion show this morning a question was asked about whither Christians are persecuted in this day and age, because some are not alowed to wear crosses or pray for hospital patience. Most of the christians who answered said yes they were ( persecuted). A Christian minister answerd also and said that no they werent they were just used to getting there own way and have never had to learn to cope with other. Which I though was a BRILLIANT answer.


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Narayanjot Kaur:
> I appreciate your previous post very much but speaking for myself I can let my intellect sometimes complicate simple issues. One of my favorite saints Sri Paramahansa Ramakrishna experienced most religions and for lack of a better term found them all valuable, that is to say he found a commonality in them all that was good. He determined that all religions worshipped God and not a false one and that all religions could lead to liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth whether it was in their belief system or not because they worked to absolve karma. So in general all religions were heading in the same direction. Of course dogma and doctrine and make things cloudy sometimes but I am an optimist in such matters.
> 
> It is not my position that all religions are the same, that would be really stupid of me, but they have much more in common than many will admit.
> ...



Satyaban ji

In fact I agree more than I disagree with your perspective, and also find the sentiments expressed by Sri Paramahansa Ramakrishna as important. That is why for me it is important to find those areas where religions are in agreement; but to do that and also preserve the differences. 

It concerns me when intelligent people think that differences lead to conflict and dissension, and possibly even to gruesome oppression. It has rather been the case in history that the desire to eliminate differences has led to gruesome results. 

"Religions" ask about the same fundamental questions. And you mentioned "karma." Yes our ethical relationship with one another, with the environment, with the universe and with the Creator -- is a fundamental concern of religion and is one reason why humans seek religion in their lives. One religion may understand the ethical/moral in terms of "karma", and another will reject the idea of "karma" for deep seated philosophical reasons. Those are the differences that I would like to respect. But the concern for how to live our lives with accountability. ethically and morally, is one and the same. That would be the area of sameness which I would like to honor. 

Diversity and unity can co-exist.  Once again I appreciate as always your thoughtful comments.


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## Satyaban (Jul 12, 2009)

Sister:
As I was reading what is your customary well thought out and logical post what started bouncing in my head and I don't know why it didn't occur before is the poison that Lord Shiva did not swallow and that is the notion of Abrahamic faiths that their faith is the only true religion. That is one hell of an impediment to what you and I are talking about religious tolerance. There can't be religious tolerance with a lot of proselytizing going on can there? One day I will tell how my Southern Baptist family has treated me.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

Satyaban ji

You are right! Peace!


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## Satyaban (Jul 15, 2009)

Narayanjot Ji

I sure can't argue with that ROFL

Peace
Satyaban


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