# Shallow Readings And Meditation



## BhagatSingh (Dec 31, 2010)

Many hold that simply reading gurbani and not understanding a word is worthless. A while ago, I would have agreed that reading page after page without attempting to understand a word is a pointless task. But there is something to be gained through this practice.




 

It is certainly beneficial to read and understand gurbani. There is no doubt about this. If one understands the Guru's message and puts it into practice, there is no match for this.  The real problem is when one only reads for the sake of reading. I will call this shallow reading, as opposed to deep reading, which includes understanding.

What could it be for?
One may think that maybe it is a first step to connecting with gurbani. That you make a habit of simply reading then you go on to understand. I started that way myself. But this is irrelevant to those who are already connected and continue to practice shallow reading. I am referring to those who read 40 Jap ji's or 100 swaiyes... are they wasting their time?

It is also believed by some that reading gurbani like this will grant them superpowers, ridhiyan sidhiyan. I don't know about that... I don't think many here will take that seriously.

Anyways, I think there is value to be found in shallow readings... first, let's ask ourslves what is meditation?
There's a whole wealth of Meditation techniques from Zen meditation practices to Hindu dhyana to Sufi Islamic traditions. However, even though there are various different kinds of practices they are all developed on the principle of focusing on ONE thing. This is to train the mind to pay attention. The essence of all practices is to quiet down one's thoughts and take notice of our moment to moment experience. Notice how when something horrible happens, our brain goes nuts! All these random thoughts enter into our head, and cause suffering. Actually, horrible things need not happen. Our mind goes crazy and generates horrible thoughts even if we are in pleasant conditiones.  Meditation aims to reduce those thoughts, to reduce fear and anxiety. What you are then left with are positive emotions of compassion and forgiveness. We suffer not because there are horrible events but because we have horrible thoughts. Queting these thoughts leads to a pleasant experience.

Meditation has been going on for a long time. People all over the world have wondered  whether it was possible to be happy without the company of loved ones,without delicious foods, without drugs! There was a simple experiment people tried. They isolated themselves from these things, essentially from the world. In there isolation they uncovered the secrets of happiness. Later on these techniques became refined and strengthened to be applied while being in the world. One of these is known as the Discipline of Bhagati. We find Guru Sahibs advocating for these practices like Naam Simran and Seva (known holistically as Bhagati). These were powerful in social circumstances. But the principle even here was the same, to focus one's mind.

It is believed that seva in a gurughar is a purely physical task. Given how I have described meditation. It is not difficult to see how seva can be a spiritual task, there is a reason why it is included in Bhagati Yog. When you focus on the task in seva, when you focus all your attention to washing the dishes, handing out the food, making rotis even, then seva gains meditative value and thus spiritual value... that is if you can find a kitchen where the "gnanis" are quiet. Good luck with that!

Perhaps, now it is easy to see how doing shallow readings can have meditative value. If you focus your attention on the words, as you read them, and pay no attention to other thoughts, it becomes more akin to a meditation that we are already familiar with, Naam Japna. A practice has meditative value when it done to quiet one's thoughts, to bring home the wandering mind. naam Japna has meditative value because you focus on the sound of the word. Do you do that when you repeat the naam?

This reminds me of a Sakhi of Guru Nanak where he is invited to a Muslim prayer by these two muslims. Next day Guru Nanak goes over to their mosque. The prayers begin. While they follow their precribed way of praying. Guru Nanak simply stands there with his eyes closed. After the prayers are over those Muslims complain to Guru Nanak that he came but he did not pray. Guru Nanak turns this around and says "you guys invited me yet when prayers began none of you actually prayed, you were focused elsewhere. One was thinking about his business of horses and the other about his family."

Of course, many people don't do prayers in this way, including Sikhs (and of course, many don't read to understand). Even naam japna simply becomes a mindless repitition of words. The mind is left to wander and one constantly suffers. it's important to be mindFUL during meditation, to pay attention to the moment, to pay attention to the task/technique at hand.

What I am saying is that meditation is simply the focusing of one's mind on a task to quiet one's mind. If that is true then shallow readings CAN have meditative value. A sehaj paath that is not understood by the participants but is still listened to and focused upon, can be great for meditation.

Most Sikhs regard Idol worship as a useles ritual. The spirituality related to Hindu worship of idols becomes apparent when we consider the essence of meditation. I am not advocating for this practice nor do I mean to include it in the above mentioned Sikh practices. but it is important to note that if the mind of the idol worshipper is focused, then it has meditative value. Hence, God (happiness) CAN be found in a rock or shallow readings, if only you focus hard enough.


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## spnadmin (Dec 31, 2010)

Bhagat Singhji

Though all of your art work is a treasure, and your talented draftsmanship is a gift from the Creator. Though all of your mental gymnastics remind us of your great wit. Nothing could be a finer present to all of us on this cusp of a New Year, than this essay. I can see how much care you have taken to make your thoughts, so subtle, quite clear. I can appreciate that exactness of your writing.  So -- from me, if not others, thank you so much. There is both depth and inspiration in what you have said.


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## jnanavan (Jan 5, 2011)

Yes bhagatsingh ji you are right. Meditation simply means to have youre mind focus on the present, living moment and usualy on one thing. This state where thoughts and mental activity have ceased/slowed down can be achived by dance, song, prayer, devotion, seva and many other activities.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 5, 2011)

Close your eyes, plug in your headphones at the right volume to go with noise in the head and your body rythm and relax sitting back, lying down in comfort.

Play video but don't need to watch and see if while you hear you connect to the writers Bulley Shah, Baba Farid ji and Bhagat Kabir ji.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam...between-islam-sikhism-english.html#post139638

Repeat if you don't succeed once.

Most will come close.  No guarantees 

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:  It will be a soul-to-soul touch.


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 6, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,

I read this while on vacation and did not want to respond at the time. It is a topic I’ve thought about and discussed with others for quite some time now. I hope that you do not mind therefore, that I give some comments.

You’re concluding remark:


> “Hence, God (happiness) CAN be found in a rock or shallow readings, if only you focus hard enough.”



You probably have a different understanding about “happiness” here; I however would associate this with the pleasant feelings accompanying instances of attachment. And sure, this is exactly what I see as being the driving force for any deliberate “focusing” on a chosen object, for example, breath. Indeed people jump at the idea of concentrating on the breath quite convinced that it is a good object. And yes, breath is indeed what many wise people have as object of contemplation, however in their case it is with “wisdom” that this object is known, and furthermore, it depends also on the accumulated tendency of the individual. 

Some people will by their nature, incline towards contemplation on death or repulsiveness of the body or loving kindness, and some on earth or fire or water element etc. And all this goes back to lifetimes of development such that at some point down the road, the mind repeatedly focuses on one of the several objects capable of arousing deep concentration, being wholesome, and maintaining calm. At no time however, has the object ever been taken up simply out of “belief” that it helps concentration and so on. In other words, it is not like they decided to suddenly one day focus on a particular object having heard that this will give rise to a wholesome state of mind, but rather that their wisdom grew based on seeing the harm in sense contacts, knowing the difference between wholesome and unwholesome and inclining towards some objects of contemplation and finally, that one of these in accordance to their particular temperament, can cause calm to arise for an extended period.

How many people do you know that are in this position? I don’t know anyone and I believe that were I to come across one such person, I’d just be a burden to him given how much attached I am to sense objects and far from wishing to do without them. 

As you may now have inferred, there are in reality only so many objects which can condition calm (the wholesome kind). Furthermore, of all these objects, breath is the most subtle and difficult to focus for an extended period of time. Also, it is not the objects which is the determining factor, but rather the “wisdom” which approaches the object. A Shivling will therefore not condition calm nor will a candle flame for example, and obviously the wise will not think to concentrate on these. On the other hand, a person who has no inkling as to the difference in quality between a wholesome state of mind from the unwholesome and the danger in sense contacts, but somehow comes to be convinced that if he concentrated on a ‘neutral’ object such as breath, that this will condition calm, and if he does not have a clue as to the restlessness accompanying moments of attachment, such a person invariably ends up encouraging attachment of one level or the other, taking happiness for calm and what is in fact unwholesome for wholesome. 

But of course, if this ‘happiness’ is the aim, concentrating on the breath is one way to go. Better this than taking drugs. I have friends who practice yoga and enjoy the part when breath is concentrated upon. But these people know this for what it is and do not mistake it to be something else. And while the one who consumes drugs is unlikely to think that he is doing a good thing, most people who are engaged in one form of meditation practice or the other however, these people are clearly fooling themselves about it. The drug addict can be saved, but those who think they are already “saved”, how should they come to realize their mistakes? 

==========


> You wrote:
> “When you focus on the task in seva, when you focus all your attention to washing the dishes, handing out the food, making rotis even, then seva gains meditative value and thus spiritual value...”



From one perspective it is understandable that people are attracted to the idea of being able to concentrate and remain focused. Indeed there are suggestions to the effect that a “concentrated mind conditions clear seeing and understanding” or something to the effect. Some people react to what they perceive as being much agitation in their lives and would like to change all that. However, the solution is not to simply focus on the task at hand, which on the surface does give the impression of calm. The truth however is that attachment often manifest to the ignorant as being calm and therefore desirable but in reality is no less agitated than say, aversion. It is failing to recognize what an agitated mind really is and what is the real cause for this that people are led by what I’ve come to recognize as “illusion of result”, associated with which are ideas regarding meditation on and off the cushion. Being ‘mindful’ in the manner you have described is in fact no different from how animals are when they stalk their prey and is therefore replacing one kind of evil with another. And if it were true that concentration is helpful for understanding to arise or that it clears the way for compassion and forgiveness, a thief who is an expert at opening safes, a hunter, an expert fisher and chess player should all be closer to achieving wisdom and goodness than most people. But are they, and why should it be?

========


> You wrote:
> “The essence of all practices is to quiet down one's thoughts and take notice of our moment to moment experience. Notice how when something horrible happens, our brain goes nuts! All these random thoughts enter into our head, and cause suffering. Actually, horrible things need not happen. Our mind goes crazy and generates horrible thoughts even if we are in pleasant conditiones. Meditation aims to reduce those thoughts, to reduce fear and anxiety.”



In the Buddhist tradition there is the simile of the “monkey mind”. The mind is said to be like the monkey jumping from one branch to the other without rest. Most people interpret this as being about the restless mind, particularly those of people involved in daily life activities. But this is a misinterpretation. The real meaning is that this is the nature of mind proper, regardless of whether it is agitated or not. The mind by nature, must necessarily take an object one after another on and on and if this were not the case, we’d not be able to function at all.

In one finger snap there arises and falls away, trillions of mind moments. It is because that this happens that we get the impression of objects being out there in this or that form and subsequently, that we can move our limbs and maneuver around them, else it would all be one and not even two dimensional. Furthermore, if this was not the nature of mind, we’d not be able to utter a word nor understand anybody else’s speech or gestures. So really there is no problem with the mind taking different objects repeatedly. Besides, concentration is in fact a mental factor arising with each mind moment whose function as momentary as everything else, is to focus on the particular object. So the problem again is not lack of concentration, but rather something else.

First and foremost it is ignorance (of the way things are) which is the problem. With this comes attachment, aversion, envy, pride, and so on, but worse of all, “wrong understanding”. It is the latter which leads us to wrong beliefs and wrong practices resulting in taking what is wrong for right, what adds to the problem as being a solution. 

===========


> You said:
> “Perhaps, now it is easy to see how doing shallow readings can have meditative value. If you focus your attention on the words, as you read them, and pay no attention to other thoughts, it becomes more akin to a meditation….”




Perhaps you need to consider the fact of attachment being the driving force by default when wisdom and other good mental factors are absent, and this is like, 99% of the time! ;-) And when attachment arises, like all mental realities, it accumulates as tendency. In this particular case of encouraging “reading regardless of any understanding”, wrong understanding is involved in addition to the attachment and with this comes its minion, namely ‘inclination to rite and ritual’. Dose it not appear to you that mindless reading for its own sake is the stuff of rite and ritual? It sure does to me. And knowing this, would you encourage the particular activity? And what if the Sikh texts teach similarly, would it not be defeating the purpose to be reading those texts in this way?

My essay is already longer than the one you wrote, so I’d better end right away. ;-)


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## Tejwant Singh1 (Jan 6, 2011)

Dear Readers Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ke Fateh.

This is a very interesting subject. May I ask one question?

If you are in a swimming pool in a city or a canal or a village pond in rural Punjab, and you are learning how to swim, will you go to the deep part or the rapid flowing part right from the start. You can try but the chances of getting drowned are great.

Therefore, the same is the case with reading Gurbani. You have to start "Shallow reading" and do an Ardas every time you finish. Ask Guru Sahib that He may give you the opportunity to read His lovely words with full attention.

And while you are waiting for Guru Sahib to bestow His Grace, you must read slowly and carefully. A simple way is to read the word again which you have misread or not understood. In fact you must read the whole line all over again. 

Mind is very dynamic. It is here one moment and it goes elsewhere at faster than the speed of light. You have to tell your mind, "Eh manna. Don’t go wandering. We will think about that subject, where you want to go, later. Right now let us be with our Guru."

If you do this slowly and diligently, the scenario will change in due time and you will be thoroughly immersed in the Word.

When you begin to get immersed, thank Him that He has been kind enough to let your mind stay with Him.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 6, 2011)

Confused ji, you really are not confused.

Exceptionally well written.  I thank you.


  Contemplation:  



For me      it happens this way and these may be short fleeting moments or short      periods of voluntary encouraged but mostly involuntary origin,
Some       of the chief mental operating system kernels in reasonable mode, at  specific level to you as to either not distract       your senses as they cannot be reduced to zero or be complementary,
Kam,        Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Hankar
 
Five       senses providing complementary participation real or virtual
Vision,        Hearing, Touch, Smell, Taste
 
Litmus       test for me is that you will remember such instances virtually for the       rest of you life in pretty vivid detail and sometimes yearn to experience       again and again
Examples       for me,
1.  I must be nine year old.  I am at Harmandir Sahib, Amritsar.  I am sitting on the upper floor and        looking down through the window at the Guru Granth Sahib ji parkash and        listening to kirtan.  Meanwhile        with my hands I am feeling the glass and glancing over the carvings the        glass protects.  Nice breeze is        everywhere and the marigolds smell is in the air.  I feel a connection between here and        now, the gurus, the karigars who did carvings and did the sang marmar        that I am sitting on.
2.  I am on my bicycle along a bicycle        path going by the river.  It is        summer and there is not much traffic.         I hear sounds of water flow, my bicycle tires rumbling on the        pavement, fresh smell in the breeze and heat from the sun.  I contemplate the virtual ageness of        waterflow, the grains of sand and pebbles along the river bank, the        wholesomeness and how little one is in relation to what surrounds us.
3.  I am lying in bed half awake in the        morning.  I just have a short        little bout of cough.  To my        amazement our Tibetan Spaniel dog comes running by the bedside.  He jumps on the bed, sense me.  Pushes his back against mine and lies        down.  I wish to God that I may        never see him die and I go to sleep.
4.  The following more or less a        repeatable item for me with little concentration but I will put it in a        category different from the Involuntary ones cited from 1 to 3 and call        these as type V where V is for voluntary and more or less repeatable..
 
 
 
  V1.  I am at computer everyone is sleeping in the house and it is pretty quiet other than the PC and furnace fans providing ambient noise.

YouTube        - Ghum Charkhia Ghum Pathanay Khan

  I watch the above video and listen to it.  A wonderful now deceased singer Pathanay Khan from Pakistan.  I right away visualize my aunt (she was like our second mom) by the Charkha.  She is spinning the charkha and the video and sounds in the above show the emotion of the moment from many years ago.  While I see myself sitting on a chownki beside her making poonian and putting them in a shikoo.  I have a peace and blissful visual and experience.

  V2.  I am at my computer and watching the following videos,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pBv7a1QWxu0YouTube        - salok saekh fareedh kae part 1
YouTube        - salok saekh fareedh kae part 2
YouTube        - salok saekh fareedh kae part 3

  I read the translation (not looking for source or authenticity but admiring the effort of the poster positively) and listen and watch the background visuals.  I see the environment of the day, I see Baba Farid ji uttering the Bani in a typical Punjab banjar type setting.  Hundreds of years gap disappears as I feel the peace and the truths.

  I can get virtually similar repeatable voluntary experience many a times.

  So I am not sure if the above supports some discussion points in the thread.  In summary,



I have      involuntary and generally non-repeatable moments which do not      necessarily create a belief .
 

I also have nearly repeatable moments and experiences which do create a belief of if I do this I get this wished result of peace, connectivity, soul-to-soul connections.
 


  I don’t think I will through “Voluntary” get a “monkey mind” but I am on watch based on confused ji’s post mundahug(I should not assume but I did that you are a man otherwise a soul hug rather than physical ).

  Without any offence to anybody I do feel like ”monkey mind” if I ever find myself in the feverish “waheguru-waheguru” chanting scenarios or generally where I am led to attempts at creation of bliss in a crowd or arbitrary settings.

  Humbly submitted for consideration and perusing.

  Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 6, 2011)

REf SHALLOW READING AND MEDITATION.

The views presented are excellent. I fully appreciate the gist of reading as presented by TEJWANT SINGH Ji.Sir you have rightly mentionted the way one must start and go with Gurbaani.
There is a way ahead of READING and MEDITATION and that is SIMRANu.READING opens the road for MEDITATION. And MEDITATION can a GATE WAY for SIMRANu.
In Gurbaani the ULTIMATE is SIMRANu only.

PRABH KAA SIMRAN SUB TE OOCHAA.

This can happen by the grace of SATi GURU Ji only.for this READING and MEDITATION can be very helpful.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 6, 2011)

Shallow reading poll follow-up for "_Yes, Please Explain."

Shallow reading to me is like running through a goldmine with eyes not totally open and running too fast.  Inspite, you are still likely to find a valuable nugget once in a while versus finding nothing if you don't do anything.

Sat Sri Akal

PS:  However one may want to consider what is more valuable:
       -  Shallow reading for 1 hour
       -  Studying a shabad for 5 minutes
       -  Studying a shabad for 1 hour

_


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## roopsidhu (Jan 6, 2011)

SSA,
Shallow reading is the first step towards meditation or in depth understanding of guru's message, hence it can not be disregarded.
igAwnY kwrn krm AiBAwsu ] igAwnu BieAw qh krmh nwsu ]
Roopsidhu


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 6, 2011)

SHALLOW READING AND MEDITATION,

Shallow reading can be taken as good start of ones journey to wards final destination.
Shallow reading is like travelling in a PSSANGER TRAIN wherein you dont enjoy the travel but do enjoy the stoppages of train at different places and the surrounding views.Shallow reading ia casual reading to get further invoved in the FOCUSED reading and then MEDITATIVE reading.
Shallow reading can have relative meanings for different persons considering the reading itself.But ultimately this can be good startfor anyone.Even casual reading is possible only thru the grace of SATi GURU Ji.So this can not be considered as wastage withiout any fruit.
In the UNIVERSE nothing goes as waste. Even if one has built castles in the air .this word need not go waste Even this shall be suitably rewarded if one can put foundation beneath the air built castle.

There is very deep and unexplainable philosophy about all what happens around.That is why different persons get interested even in Gurbaani at different levels of age.

Prakash.s/Bagga


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## findingmyway (Jan 6, 2011)

Both Bhagat ji and Confused ji have put their points across very well and really got me thinking. I'm not convinced that you can say that shallow reading and meditation will work for everyone. We are all different-unique human beings. Our minds work in different ways. For some the shallow reading will be an excellent starting point for other its puts them off as it feels useless. For some meditation is a great way to still the mind and focus, yet for others mediation spins the mind into overdrive no matter how hard they try so they just cannot get into it. Also the images conjured up in meditation may not take you in exactly the direction you want to go as the subconscious begins to intrude. 

Then comes the next step. If shallow reading is a beginning and meditation is to make one focussed then is it possible to move beyond these when the aim is achieved to the next level-understanding, applying and remembering always. Some people will find this harder than others as it is a big step to move out the comfort zone.
In summary, I think each person is different and needs to find what works for them on their individual spiritual path:sippingcoffee:


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## spnadmin (Jan 6, 2011)

My own opinion is that prakash ji has captured the essence for a great many people. There is an evolutionary character to reading gurbani. It is possible to get stuck along the way. It is also possible that at some point frustration itself motivates a person to move in a different direction. Forum members roopsidhu ji and also Ambarsaria also seem to be suggesting something similar. 



> Shallow reading can be taken as good start of ones journey to wards final destination.
> Shallow reading is like travelling in a PSSANGER TRAIN wherein you dont enjoy the travel but do enjoy the stoppages of train at different places and the surrounding views.Shallow reading ia casual reading to get further invoved in the FOCUSED reading and then MEDITATIVE reading.
> 
> 
> Shallow reading can have relative meanings for different persons considering the reading itself.But ultimately this can be good startfor anyone.Even casual reading is possible only thru the grace of SATi GURU Ji.So this can not be considered as wastage withiout any fruit.


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## Rupinder.Singh (Jan 6, 2011)

Good to see this post on SPN. 

Really sorry about the long post, could not find a better way to express myself.


Based on my understanding, I partially agree with Bhagat Singh ji’s posting on meditation. My opinion aligns with the principle highlighted by “Findingmyway” about everyone’s different perspective and opinion, which I totally agree with.

Here I am expressing my own opinion and understanding of the topic. 

The terms, meditation, Naam, Naam Simran are very deep terms, I think majority of the Sikh sangat take shallow meanings of these terms to start with. This understanding is influenced by the environment we live in where in we try to connect with others, by relating with them, by doing the things in a way others do without reflecting on the underlying reason, logic or base. This can be termed as shallow understanding of the environment.

Our Gurus, did not oppose any practice, but opposed the fact that these practices actually lead human being to follow without reflections or knowledge, and thus lead to blind faith and rituals. These practices are like fast food outlets, where they serve the immediate need of mankind, but never teach them how to prepare the food themselves and be independent of fast food outlets. 

The term Meditation is “Dhyan” in gurmukhi. What is dhyan. Dhyan is a state of mind where mind is focused on only one thing, where mind has realized that ‘one thing’, where mind tries to connect everything around him to that one thing, or sees that one thing in everything. 

Next term is SEHAJ, Sehaj means without any effort, without any special body posture, without any special condition or environment i.e. only in the natural way, natural conditions whatever nature has offered,  be it floods, natural disaster, pleasant breeze or whatever. This is SEHAJ, nature’s own way without any special effort by mankind.

Next Term is EK, Ek means ONE, This is the same one thing we talked about to focus on in term Dhyan,  In whole SGGS, our gurus talked about this “EK”

ਪੰਨਾ 160, ਸਤਰ 10
ਏਕਸੁ ਤੇ ਸਭਿ ਰੂਪ ਹਹਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
एकसु ते सभि रूप हहि रंगा ॥
Ėkas ṯe sabẖ rūp hėh rangā.
All forms and colors come from the One Lord.
ਮਃ 3   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok







In my opinion, SGGS tells us the stages of  Dhyan (meditation). (Please note this is just my opinion or understanding from one perspective)

Guru Ji list five stages as follows: (please read the entire pauri in brackets for better understanding, it is hard to put it in words)

Dharam Khand (ਧਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕਾ ਏਹੋ ਧਰਮੁ):
 (ਪੰਨਾ 7, ਸਤਰ 11 ਰਾਤੀ ਰੁਤੀ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰ ॥ )
The universe, surroundings, its operations and interdependence, God’s imposed Laws (nature’s law)  and discipline on this and other universes, ie. Dharam, 


Gyan Khand (ਗਿਆਨ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਰਚੰਡੁ ॥ ):
Trying to Understand God’s Dharam, trying to Know about it, explore it, and then accept it as it is,  

Shr’am Khand (ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ )
Stage where one has to act on that knowledge and understanding obtained in Gyan Khand to purify himself, beautify his soul. This is a stage of hard work, where knowledge is the guide.

Karam Khand: (ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ ॥) 
Stage, where a purified and beautified soul from previous stage of Sh’ram Khand acts for the benefit of society. This is the stage of SEVA.  A stage where one realises GOD in everything and loves to serve HIM.

Sach Khand (ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥) 
This is the ultimate state, where one is totally imbued in GOD,  A state where even Nanak says  “ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥ “


All these stages are through sehaj, where one does not sit in any particular posture, does not recite any thing loudly or repetitively. It is just attained in a sehaj way, in a natural way.

According to Guru’s path, Gyan is the second stage of this ultimate state. Without gyan no one can work on oneself. Gyan comes through understanding, Understanding does not come through shallow reading. 

I agree with other posters,  that even through shallow reading some verses touch our heart/mind but in my opinion at that particular verse/point the reading is not shallow. 



 Again, really sorry about the long post

Rupinder Singh
:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 6, 2011)

Awesome post Rupinder Singh ji!



> *The terms, meditation, Naam, Naam Simran are very deep terms, I think  majority of the Sikh sangat take shallow meanings of these terms to  start with.* This understanding is influenced by the environment we live  in where in we try to connect with others, by relating with them, by  doing the things in a way others do without reflecting on the underlying  reason, logic or base. This can be termed as shallow understanding of  the environment.
> 
> Our Gurus, did not oppose any practice, but opposed the fact that these  practices actually lead human being to follow without reflections or  knowledge, and thus lead to blind faith and rituals. These practices are  like fast food outlets, where they serve the immediate need of mankind,  but never teach them how to prepare the food themselves and be  independent of fast food outlets.


Excellent points!
I was aiming to address the point in bold, with my post.


BTW your post is not long at all.


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 6, 2011)

Dear All,

There appears to be a misunderstanding of what I’ve expressed, one which was not unexpected. Had it not been that the my last post was already getting too long I would have addressed a point made by Bhagat ji in his original post which would have helped made things more clear. So I’ll do this now.

Quote from Bhagat ji’s original post:
“One may think that maybe it is a first step to connecting with gurbani. That you make a habit of simply reading then you go on to understand. I started that way myself.”


What I wanted to suggest is that one starts with a level of understanding enough to be attracted to a particular set of teachings. In other words, it is interest which leads one to open the book to read, tape to listen to, or go to the Gurdwara to hear the teachings. Obviously, little understanding would mean little of what is read or heard is understood while the rest is either not or else misunderstood. There is no control over any of this and therefore it would surely be that we all read with little understanding most of the time. 

My comments were not to discourage reading; the objection was towards the encouragement of ‘mindless reading’. To put it differently, that we read with little understanding is unavoidable, however the purpose of reading being to understand the message, we should not then be encouraging reading just for the sake of it, especially given the danger of attachment and tendency to follow any activity ritualistically. And obviously I do not go on to expect anyone to read with attention and understanding for any length of time, that would be a mistake of more or less the same kind. In fact even after decades I expect that little must change for anyone. Indeed if someone were to claim that he now reads with full attention and understanding unlike how it was previously, it is quite likely that he is deluding himself in some way or the other! 

So we start with a level of interest, picking up the relevant text and reading it. What we get out of this is expected to be extremely little in the beginning, but it should not stop us from being interested and continuing to read. Gradually with more understanding there is greater interest and so we read more often these particular set of teachings while other subjects will perhaps appeal less and we do not read as much of those texts as we did before. The more there is interest and understanding, the more instances of ‘quality reading’ as against quantity, which again can’t be controlled / determined by will. And sure there could even be ritualistic reading interspersed. But surely these instances are not to be encouraged!? It is hard enough that we have so much of the tendency accumulated over lifetimes which need to be recognized as it manifests in our lives. Let us not however make the mistake of actually encouraging them!

At this point I’d suggest that reading is different from listening to a recording. One could open a tape while involved in other activities knowing that only some of what is played is heard. The likelihood of it all becoming a ritualistic activity is therefore lessened, although one would still need to question oneself about it. However a correct attitude here could be with the understanding that it does not matter what is registered and what is missed. Of course this does not mean that we refrain from rewinding in order to hear again something we think we need to. ;-) After all this may be motivated simply by interest in understanding. 

Better than reading and listening however, is discussion, especially with people who understand these things better than we do. Discussion allows our understanding to be tested and is what we are all doing here. So let us continue to discuss. ;-)

Ambarsaria ji, I had difficulty understanding your message. I am what you might call ‘slow’ especially when it comes to understanding other people’s concise remarks. This may be reflected in the fact that I myself tend to be longwinded in my own expressions. One idea in all what you said came across as interesting and worthy of discussion, namely:

>> I have involuntary and generally non-repeatable moments which do not necessarily create a belief. << 

Please elaborate on the above so that we could then start to discuss it or not…


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 6, 2011)

Confused ji, what is meditation to you?

I think if you explain what you think it is, I will be better able to grasp your posts.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 6, 2011)

confused ji, I can elaborate.

Reference:  Examples 1 to 4 in my Post (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...allow-readings-and-meditation.html#post139744)

The question about,

>> I have involuntary and generally non-repeatable moments which do not necessarily create a belief. << 

These are moments that I remember in my life as vividly as now if I were to close my eyes.  What made these special spiritually are the following,



Me and my soul
The environment
Experience inputs from the five senses
Stimulus or sprinkling of gurbani, wisdom spoken/sung by others
The confluence of all these would create a flash in the deepest parts of myself that could not be expressed but is forever printed in memory as close to the core of my soul/God that I can get to.

During such a moment of experience I had no recollection of Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Hankar.  Just bliss.

Because of the elements in play I cannot recreate but I can always remember.  By not creating a belief implies that I cannot take one experience and replicate my experience by changing one or two or more of the variables in a predictable manner.

Have I seen God, I perhaps have and it is definitely within for me.

The above contrast with the Examples V1 and V2 where I can reasonably, easily and repeatedly get into a blissful state.

Sorry about long winded again.

Regards.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 6, 2011)

Bhagat Ji,



BhagatSingh said:


> Confused ji, what is meditation to you?
> 
> I think if you explain what you think it is, I will be better able to grasp your posts.




What is Meditation?
I think anyone who has come across this concept should pause to ask themselves this question. The problem is that we think we already know or are lead simply by descriptions made by others, in which case the appeal would be to reason and any attachment invariably arisen rather than to any understanding. Worse is when we are compelled by a desire for quick fix to the problems of our lives such that we then jump at the idea immediately. The justifications then follow fuelled by ignorance, attachment and wrong understanding. At which point it becomes harder to question but worse is when the practice is already undertaken to any degree and ‘illusions of result’ have arisen. 

Actually we should ask ourselves the meaning in terms of what it is in actual experience, about everything! If not then our approach to religion becomes more or less a matter of replacing one object of attachment for another and this is what I see happening everywhere. Religion is supposed to encourage detachment but it turns out that people make it yet another thing to attach to. And the only way to prevent this from happening is to try and understand every concept that we come across and question any preconceived notions that we have about them.

So yes, what is meditation? Could it be something which then allows any and everybody to project whatever preferred meaning and significance they’d like to? I think not. Firstly, as I understand it, meditation like all mental states must come down to a particular quality of mind which must necessarily be momentary / fleeting. We can’t therefore appeal to some conventional activity of noting this or that object in this or that posture which in fact then becomes a convenient screen to hide behind. Indeed this is what followers of all the thousands of meditation techniques taught today appeal to and are happy to stand united with each other for, while they continue to avoid facing the fact of disagreements in other areas. And are they not insecure about it all?!!!

Wisdom is foremost and with it is mindfulness of the object of consciousness. This is what meditation in the final analysis is. We could therefore conclude that meditation is in fact the ‘development of wisdom’. This being the case, asking oneself “what is it that is known and understood now” may be a way to get oneself on the right track. If not, then only wisdom itself will know, otherwise one is definitely going to be led by ignorance. 

There are however two different types of meditation. One which is taught by the Buddha involves coming to know the nature of these momentary realities through one of the five senses and the mind. This does not involve developing concentration but rather about insight into the nature of conditioned phenomena. The other type is what I referred to in my first message here, is about entering states of consciousness beyond that of the sensuous sphere and abiding in there for an extended period. This however begins with the development of wholesome states of mind in daily life, seeing danger in attachment to sense objects and finally taking on a particular object where wisdom and mindfulness repeatedly takes this same object continuously, resulting in what is then considered ‘deep concentration’. 

One could for example think about the good qualities of any enlightened person with understanding about these, and this would mean that one’s own mind at the time is wholesome. This could become a habit and at some point lead to deep concentration. This kind of meditation however, does not have anything to do with insight into the nature of conditioned phenomena which even the most sublime of states necessarily are. Therefore it is only by way of development of wisdom of the first kind that ignorance, craving, conceit and everything else is eradicated and is how the endless cycle of birth and death comes to an end. 

I could add more, but think I should wait for your response first.


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 7, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

I had interpreted your statement to being about 'beliefs', how these are formed and their influence on our perceptions in the moment. As you will now see from my message to Bhagat ji, I'd question you on the concepts you have made reference to including such as "soul", "me and my soul", "the environment" and so on. I think however, that this is not the place to start such a discussion, but if you want to we could do it elsewhere. 

Regarding being long winded, I was referring not to you but my own self. I was clumsy in my expression. Sorry about that.


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## gurbanicd (Jan 7, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Many hold that simply reading gurbani and not understanding a word is worthless. A while ago, I would have agreed that reading page after page without attempting to understand a word is a pointless task. But there is something to be gained through this practice.
> 
> It is certainly beneficial to read and understand gurbani. There is no doubt about this. If one understands the Guru's message and puts it into practice, there is no match for this.  The real problem is when one only reads for the sake of reading. I will call this shallow reading, as opposed to deep reading, which includes understanding.
> 
> ...




waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

there are many shabads on reading gurbani,and gurbani vichar.Gurbani vichar is not easily possible without reading, but reading is ALSO a step. TO REACH SOME CONLCUSION.
The whole concept of Gurbani revolves round  NAAM with ove and affection.


sloku mÚ 1 ] piV piV gfI ldIAih piV piV BrIAih swQ ] piV piV byVI pweIAY piV piV gfIAih Kwq ]
pVIAih jyqy brs brs pVIAih jyqy mws ] 
pVIAY jyqI Awrjw pVIAih jyqy sws ] nwnk lyKY iek gl horu haumY JKxw JwK ]1] {pMnw 467}

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->  }

**************
qurk qrIkiq jwnIAY ihMdU byd purwn ] mn smJwvn kwrny kCUA k pVIAY igAwn ]5] {pMnw 340}

*************

] hir pVu hir ilKu hir jip hir gwau hir Baujlu pwir auqwrI ] min bcin irdY iDAwie hir hoie sMqustu iev Bxu hir nwmu murwrI ]1]

************************ 
DnwsrI mhlw 4 ] syvk isK pUjx siB Awvih siB gwvih hir hir aUqm bwnI ]
gwivAw suixAw iqn kw hir Qwie pwvY ijn siqgur kI AwigAw siq siq kir mwnI ]1]
**********************



bwvn ACr lok qRY, sBu kCu ien hI mwih ] ey AKr iKir jwihgy, Eie AKr ien mih nwih ]1] {pMnw 340

   ******************************

bhulan chukan di khima


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## G. GOBIND SINGHJI CHELA (Jan 7, 2011)

Well said Bhagat Singh.The pure essence of Guru Granth Sahib is not understood.We are just keep on reading and reading.The most important thing about Gurbani is that we must practice what have been told.In Gurbani it is written that the remembrance of the permatma and loving it full heartedly is the utmost important.

Sat Sri Akaal....


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 7, 2011)

READING AND MEDITATION,
In Gurbaani we do not find yhe use of word "PARMATAMA" as we make use of this word profusely  like the word GOD.
It is thus important to collect the quotes from GURBAANi related to reading and meditation to know the view of Gurbaani. We may have  something quite different than what we think.
I would expect that somebody would  take some time to collect and display all the quotes from Gurbaani related to Reading and Meditation.

I am sure it would be very interesting analysis .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 7, 2011)

Confused said:


> Bhagat Ji,
> 
> What is Meditation?
> I think anyone who has come across this concept should pause to ask themselves this question. The problem is that we think we already know or are lead simply by descriptions made by others, in which case the appeal would be to reason and any attachment invariably arisen rather than to any understanding. Worse is when we are compelled by a desire for quick fix to the problems of our lives such that we then jump at the idea immediately. The justifications then follow fuelled by ignorance, attachment and wrong understanding. At which point it becomes harder to question but worse is when the practice is already undertaken to any degree and ‘illusions of result’ have arisen.
> ...



Well said, Confused ji. 



Confused said:


> So yes, what is meditation? Could it be something which then allows any and everybody to project whatever preferred meaning and significance they’d like to? I think not. *Firstly, as I understand it, meditation like all mental states must come down to a particular quality of mind which must necessarily be momentary / fleeting*. We can’t therefore appeal to some conventional activity of noting this or that object in this or that posture which in fact then becomes a convenient screen to hide behind. Indeed this is what followers of all the thousands of meditation techniques taught today appeal to and are happy to stand united with each other for, while they continue to avoid facing the fact of disagreements in other areas. And are they not insecure about it all?!!!



Yes merely doing those things you mention won't help at all. and I understand this is what is commonly done. And it's because meditation itself, the point when you are actually meditating, when the meditation is successful, is actually very hard to get to. The experience of meditation is for most a momentary experience. It is momentary because it is difficult for the mind to stay in this state.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji points to us that ego is what prevents us from getting there. Once the ego is diminished then that state can be activated 24/7 or 8 peher.



Confused said:


> *Wisdom is foremost and with it is mindfulness of the object of consciousness.* This is what meditation in the final analysis is. We could therefore conclude that meditation is in fact the ‘*development of wisdom*’. This being the case, asking oneself “what is it that is known and understood now” may be a way to get oneself on the right track. If not, then only wisdom itself will know, otherwise one is definitely going to be led by ignorance.



Yes mind*ful*ness is important. 



Confused said:


> There are however two different types of meditation. One which is taught by the Buddha involves coming to know the nature of these momentary realities through one of the five senses and the mind. This does not involve developing concentration but rather about insight into the nature of conditioned phenomena.


Please elaborate on what you mean by the conditioned phenomena.



Confused said:


> The other type ...  *seeing danger in attachment to sense objects and finally taking on a particular object where wisdom and mindfulness repeatedly takes this same object continuously, resulting in what is then considered ‘deep concentration’.*
> [*]


Yes this is the one I was referring to as well. 



Confused said:


> One could for  ... Therefore it is only by way of* development of wisdom of the first kind that ignorance, craving, conceit and everything else is eradicated and is how the endless cycle of birth and death comes to an end. *[**]
> 
> I could add more, but think I should wait for your response first.


That was a clear and well articulated response!

Here is what I can add (and perhaps clarify). 

With regards to the point in bold with [**]:
These qualities (conceit, anger, craving: greed, lust, the 5 vices) belong to the ego. Our ego manifests itself in our thoughts. So it makes sense that if we slowly train our mind to a reduced level of thoughts, and if we slowly train our mind to stop buying into the thoughts we have, then we can slowly kill off our ego.
We essentially live at the mercy of the discursive dialogue that is always taking place within us. We are always talking to ourselves... I am doing so as I type. This dialogue is basically our ego. Many have found that once this mental discursive dialogue is quieted down, there are wonderful experiences to be had. There is 'happiness' and by that I mean well-being, to be found once the dialogue is quiet. Such happiness/well-being is independent of wordly things. it is independent of eating delicious foods or spending time with friends or family. it is independent of _maya_.

A few questions arise at this point:
Is there really a happiness, a well-being that is independent of maya? Most of us live our life, as if the answer is 'no' but the answer all saints give is, YES. They say yes, you can be happy without anything, "with dry bread and cold water" - Sheikh Farid.

Once we say yes. Then we wonder how can such a form of well-being be discovered? Simple logic dictates that you remove yourself from all other sources of happiness, and that you isolate yourself. If a source of happiness independent of attachments is to be found, it should be available in a place where there are no wordly pleasures.... and as you know this is what was done, and it lead to an evolution in meditation techniques and practices, the basic principle had been discovered. Now, we come to the time of Gurus, who tell us of ways of meditating while remaining in the world, without renouncing it, while living amongst attachments and not buying into them. As you might know, their methods are very much involved in social contexts.

One thing to notice is that it comes down to our ego yet again. It is our ego that seeks these attachments. It actively does so, every moment.
How do we start seeing (intuitively) the danger of attachment 
[*], and how do we eradicate our ego?
When we meditate. More specifically, when we train the mind, to notice our moment to moment experience. When we train it to see how our ego rises and falls, how it responds to things. Once we start to see it before our eyes, doing what it does, we can address it. To do so we must be mindFUL, and we must remove the filter of thoughts that blocks our vision of our moment to moment experience. 
Meditation techniques often involve learning to focus and concentrate on mundane tasks, tasks that otherwise arouse little interest and little attention. This is so that we can train the mind to be senstive to our experiences, so that is able to notice minute things that happen within us. it would not be much of a training if it involved for example, watching TV to which we readily pay attention to.
 Ego is almost invisible to the average Joe. So the first step in eleminating it, is to learn to notice it. It turns out that just noticing its rise and fall, moment to moment, is already a very difficult task.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 7, 2011)

READING AND MEDITATION,

Generally MEDITATION is a process of thinking some Single point or Some specific word with a particular POSTURE. This type ofMEDITATION is not advocated in Gurbaani.
In Gurbaani the term Meditation has been used in different context with different meanings.This needs to be understood the way Gurbaani messages are.
There can be meditative readingresulting in understanding what is being read.As such there is no Role of MEDITATION with any specific Posture.
Gurbaani words are very articulate in the sense that whosoever reads  ;feels satisfied for theunderstanding  anyone gathers depending upon his own level of thinking.In fact this is the main reason for the variation in the interpretation of Gurbaani.However it does not mean that so many different interpretations can create confusion .Because there is a tool available {Grammer} to assess the particular interpretation.s correctness.We hardly do that.
As a matter of fact we should not accept any interpretation as final unless that interpretation meets the grammatical considerations of the words.In this somebody may think ..is Gurbaani slave of Grammer?.The answer would be....Gurbaani as such is not slave of grammer but the understanding of Gurbaani is definitely slave of grammer.

Therefore we should learn the Basics of Gurbaani grammer and we should make our own interpretation then this would constitute your own knowledge.Otherwise we shall remain vacillatiing on borrowed knowledge.
We are SIKHS of our GURU.We should try to get knowlegdge from GURU only.We can however take some initial help of others conversant with teachings of GURU but ultimately we should our own knowledge to say ...HIRDAE NAAMu VASSAE HO.GHAR BAITHAE GURU DHIAAE HO.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 7, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga ji it is a pleasure and honor to read your good posts.  

Thank you for your contributions and lucid clarifications.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 7, 2011)

Dear All,

My discussion here appears to be going in a direction where it stands against Sikh teachings. This is not something I’ve ever intended to happen. I was prompted originally to respond to Bhagat ji’s post partly because other traditions were mentioned and mostly because the idea of being mindful / focused on one’s activities, reminded me of the teachings of many Buddhist meditation teachers which I consider completely wrong. 

That said I realize that everyone knows already that there is a big difference between Buddhism and every other religion. I also know that like I think that I am right, similarly everyone else with a differing view thinks that he is right. So in the end, I don’t think I am a threat to anyone here. I am encouraged first and foremost by the admin’s attitudes, who has been generous and open enough and seen no reason so far, to moderate me. I guess that this is related to the general Sikh attitude of being open to learning from other sources and again this is one of the motivating forces why I keep on expressing myself here.    

This was to set the record straight just in case anyone here has some misunderstanding. Someone may feel confident about his own understanding but when thinking about other member’s the same does not apply. In any case, I think we should all not be too concerned about other people in this regard anyway. 
Regards,
Sukinderpal
Ps: Bhagat ji, Saturday is a day that I have less time on the computer, so there will be a gap before you receive a response to your post from me.


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2011)

Sorry you will be taking a break. Yes...imho...your description of ideas explored here  provides an important contextual contrast to many of the views expressed. Through contrast - learning to learn what things are not - we often achieve a better sense of what we think they are. To that end, you have made some important contributions. In my opinion, you set some firm boundaries for yourself and stayed within them. I am gratified that you did follow up the question regarding "conditioned thought" from a Buddhist perspective, because that would have taken the thread far into a completely different direction. We also can read what you have already at SPN described as a Buddhist understanding. We can all learn from what you have written on the subject. Please hurry back however so we can enjoy more of your thoughtful comments.


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## Tejwant Singh1 (Jan 7, 2011)

Dear Readers Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ke Fateh.

This is a very interesting subject. May I ask one question?

If you are in a swimming pool in a city or a canal or a village pond in rural Punjab, and you are learning how to swim, will you go to the deep part or the rapid flowing part right from the start. You can try but the chances of getting drowned are great.

Therefore, the same is the case with reading Gurbani. You have to start "Shallow reading" and do an Ardas every time you finish. Ask Guru Sahib that He may give you the opportunity to read His lovely words with full attention.

And while you are waiting for Guru Sahib to bestow His Grace, you must read slowly and carefully. A simple way is to read the word again which you have misread or not understood. In fact you must read the whole line all over again. 

Mind is very dynamic. It is here one moment and it goes elsewhere at faster than the speed of light. You have to tell your mind, "Eh manna. Don’t go wandering. We will think about that subject, where you want to go, later. Right now let us be with our Guru."

If you do this slowly and diligently, the scenario will change in due time and you will be thoroughly immersed in the Word.

When you begin to get immersed, thank Him that He has been kind enough to let your mind stay with Him.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 8, 2011)

May I raise a bigger question along the same lines.

Within the context of shallow we can say,



Shallow Readers
Beginners to language and vocabulary
New to Gurbani
_*Prisoners to Habit*_
_*Through neglect*_
_*Through training*_
 
Looking for Growth from Shallow to deep without effort
Looking for Growth from Shallow to deep with effort
 


Shallow Listeners
Beginners to language and vocabulary
New to Gurbani
_*Prisoners to Habit*_
_*Through training*_
_*Through neglect*_
 
Looking for Growth from Shallow to deep without effort
Looking for Growth from Shallow to deep with effort
 
I have no scientific data but I conjecture based on life experiences with relatives and friends that the key impacting category is "shallow listeners".  This relates to there being much fewer readers versus listeners in the overall sikh populace.

Highlighted in *RED* are the areas of greatest personal damage as well as to Sikhism as a whole.

The sikhism enemies would love to see a dummbed down sikh populace.  Furthermore there is so much commercial value to such segment of the population which have been indirectly turned into followers.

I hope it does not hijack the primary thread.

Just some food for thought and perhaps a separate thread for best strategies to uplift and help sikhi grow.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 8, 2011)

Any exposure to gurbani is valuable.  I don't know that I would call it meditative.  I'm not even sure I know what that means.  I'm not even sure I can write anything that makes sense.  It said after I voted I should explain.  I cannot explain.  Sorry for the distraction.  I'll just go back to my tea.  :sippingcoffee:


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## Admin (Jan 8, 2011)

*Off-topic but important suggestion*: Dear All, whenever you find some perspectives or diversions with in a topic, which require a new topic of their own, just do it before the thought is lost in oblivion... :sippingcoffeemunda: 

And once you create a new topic, put a link of that topic in the original debate so that those topics remain connected.

Thank you!

Gurfateh


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 8, 2011)

Bhagat ji,

I have a little time now, so I’ll try to provide you with a necessary background information you asked for and will come back to the rest of your post when I have more time.

You asked:
“Please elaborate on what you mean by the conditioned phenomena.”


According to the Buddha there is the unconditioned reality which is Nirvana and conditioned realities. Conditioned realities are basically two types, one are mental phenomena and the other, physical phenomena, the important qualifier being that the one experiences something and the other does not. These two are basically everything we ever know and experience. Of mental phenomena these are again two, one is “consciousness” which is chief in experiencing and the other are “mental factors” which must necessarily accompany the consciousness every time that it arises. This latter performs different functions in support and include the seven basics, namely feeling, attention, volition, contact, concentration, perception, life faculty,  and others which arise depending and which we all recognize, are such things as attachment, aversion, ignorance, kindness, wisdom, wrong understanding, applied thought, compassion, conceit, moral shame, envy, non-attachment etc.

To illustrate: Through the five senses, experienced by the corresponding mental realities, are physical realities of seven (of total 28) different kinds. Seeing consciousness experiences visible object, hearing experiences sound, tasting consciousness experiences taste, smelling consciousness experiences smell and body consciousness experiences the earth element (manifested as hardness / softness), the fire element (heat / cold) and the wind element (motion / pressure). 

These five sense consciousness are accompanied only by the seven basic (more appropriately called ‘universals’) mental factors. What follows from these however are other kinds of consciousness, significant ones being those through the mind door. It is here that the consciousness is accompanied by the other mental factors in addition. In other words, it is through the mind door that greed, aversion, conceit, ignorance etc. arises or kindness, confidence, wisdom, morality, non-aversion, equanimity, mindfulness and so on, do. And it is here that the thinking of ‘concepts’ based on the experience of the five senses take place.

None of these mental and the physical realities can arise without being conditioned by other of these realities. This is the meaning of being “conditioned” and hence the idea, “conditioned phenomena”.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 8, 2011)

READING AND MEDITATION,

SHALLOW reading as the word itself suggests is shallow in nature.Shallow should be viewed only as taking the Bird:s eye view of the matter to be actually read and understood.
We can put the step further than shallow reading to the analysis as envisaged by
SIR AMBARSARIA Ji.Your views are fully analytic for the subject of understaning.
I feel so.I may be wrong.A fact may be considered that any one would always have Bird"s eye before going into further details.
Thus shallow reading may be step for the interest to be created for further reading 
with understanding .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm not sure about this shallow/deep business.  One could spend many lifetimes, I think, without exhausting the meaning of the first word, the first syllable, the first letter of Gurbani.  How deep do we want to go?  Most of us, I would guess that all of us, go on to the whole Mool Mantar and the Japji Sahib and beyond.  

When was the last time I/we/you really heard the Mool Mantar?  It is so much a part of our lives that it can easily become simple background noise.  I think any Sikh can easily see the inexhaustability of Japji Sahib.  I, at least, find these parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji most difficult.

I used to think that the writings of the First Nanak were the most difficult and those of the Bhagats, especially Kabeer, as the simplest to understand.  As I grow older, now I am not so sure.  I am seeing layer upon layer of meaning in Shabads I used to think simple and and uncomplicated.  And that is in English!  Since I lost all my Punjabi - and related languages - in the stroke in 2006 - I also lost those layers of meaning.

As I go on, I am beginning to wonder if there is such a thing as a shallow study/meditation/understanding of Gurbani?  Even the tiniest bit seems to contain an infinite depth.

Sorry if I am just confusing everybody.  As I think I said earlier.  I find all this very confusing anyway.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 9, 2011)

mai harinder kaur ji great post and description of a dilemma I am sure most if not all of us have faced once or twice or many times more and are still facing in our lives.

*Example:* My mother who is quite older now would go to Gurudwaras with us.  When we would hear the reading of the Hukam she will at times say "  Bahut changa valk niklia" meaning .... _very good and auspicious sloak is the Hukam read out_.  She generally had a great grasp of Gurbani essence.  I had a dilemma in my mind and I used to say or think to myself, "Par Mata ji, sarey valk in Guru Granth Sahib ji wich changey han" meaning .... _but dear Mother, all the sloaks in Guru Granth Sahib ji are very good and auspicious,_ and there is no difference in the essence from one day to another.

My understanding is that once you connect with the essence of Gurbani the shallowness and deep part starts to disappear.  You read with wonderment rather than the need to dissect literally and deeply.  In a way a little stream that start in us as a shallow few drops of water turns into a torrent, into rapids and a calming deep river as it continues to build without doubt.  Every river has shallow banks and areas of great depth.  The force and essence of the river is inclusivity of all its elements.  

*Analogy:* That from Guru Granth Sahib ji one may have shallow understanding of some and deeper understanding of other parts but as you develop the understanding of complete context, essence and understanding with time you will flow with the total spirit and understanding like a river towards an ocean.

_I find this is perhaps better fitting analogy for this thread as compared to learning to swim and starting in the shallow end of a pool or pond.  But again please just my understanding for consideration and not to say anyone has less or I have better understanding. _peacesign

Iota by iota you start your inward march towards the God within you as well as start the outward march in seeing the God in everyone else and around you.

Great dialog and expositions.

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 9, 2011)

Bhagat ji,


Quote:Originally Posted by Confused  
So yes, what is meditation? Could it be something which then allows any and everybody to project whatever preferred meaning and significance they’d like to? I think not. Firstly, as I understand it, meditation like all mental states must come down to a particular quality of mind which must necessarily be momentary / fleeting. We can’t therefore appeal to some conventional activity of noting this or that object in this or that posture which in fact then becomes a convenient screen to hide behind. Indeed this is what followers of all the thousands of meditation techniques taught today appeal to and are happy to stand united with each other for, while they continue to avoid facing the fact of disagreements in other areas. And are they not insecure about it all?!!!

Bhagat:
Yes merely doing those things you mention won't help at all. and I understand this is what is commonly done. And it's because meditation itself, the point when you are actually meditating, when the meditation is successful, is actually very hard to get to. The experience of meditation is for most a momentary experience. It is momentary because it is difficult for the mind to stay in this state.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji points to us that ego is what prevents us from getting there. Once the ego is diminished then that state can be activated 24/7 or 8 peher.


C: There is a common misconception apparently colored by ambition on the part of those who entertain the concept. In the Buddhist tradition people are led by the idea of being ‘mindful’ when in fact they should be thinking in terms of developing ‘understanding’. 

When thinking in terms of the need to be mindful or focused and no interest is had to the fact of understanding the present moment, the attention invariably goes to the idea of a ‘self’ who is mindful. This ‘self’ then pays attention to equally illusory concepts of objects, situations and activities, which in fact is just more “thinking” and is *not* mindfulness of a present phenomena! This is one “illusion of result” people unwittingly fall prey to from which grows the idea of need then, to be mindful for extended periods of time. And yes, this is what they could in fact achieve, i.e. to be mindful for a long time, related to which is the idea of carrying over mindfulness from the time one is on the cushion to times off the cushion. 

All this however is a perversion of view, encouraging of more ignorance and attachment. The fact being that no understanding has arisen to know the object through the five senses and the mind, which if it did must necessarily give the impression of fleetingness, of being conditioned and beyond control. Instead, the vastly greater tendency to ignorance and attachment has arisen continuously to think in terms self, situations and activities, and wrong understanding arose intermittently to amongst other things, mistake attachment for mindfulness. Hence one goes away with the impression of doing the right thing / being on the right track when in fact one isn’t.

Right understanding on the other hand thinks in terms of developing right understanding and not to being more mindful. The interest is to the present moment instead of being drawn in by ideas about past and future, not to speak of “more”. The aim is never to have mindfulness all the time given the understanding that there is ever *only NOW* to understand. And given where most of us are, I’d think that even one moment of genuine mindfulness to the characteristic of a mental or physical phenomenon through one of the five senses and the mind is worth all the gold in the world. Certainly it is better to have taken one baby step in the right direction that a thousand in the wrong ones? One does not mind then, if little understanding has arisen knowing that it can’t be hastened by any wishing and willing. Such an attitude itself is reflection of a level of understanding which most would do well to have. Instead, greed drives people to follow suggestions by meditation teachers, resulting in what is akin to a blind being led by another blind and getting positive feedback from other equally blind people all believing that they can actually see.

===========
Quote:Originally Posted by Confused  
Wisdom is foremost and with it is mindfulness of the object of consciousness. This is what meditation in the final analysis is. We could therefore conclude that meditation is in fact the ‘development of wisdom’. This being the case, asking oneself “what is it that is known and understood now” may be a way to get oneself on the right track. If not, then only wisdom itself will know, otherwise one is definitely going to be led by ignorance.

Bhagat:
Yes mindfulness is important. 


C: 
It is one thing to understand the role of mindfulness as support for wisdom when it arises. The error is in the idea to develop mindfulness on its own.

==========
Bhagat:
These qualities (conceit, anger, craving: greed, lust, the 5 vices) belong to the ego. Our ego manifests itself in our thoughts. So it makes sense that if we slowly train our mind to a reduced level of thoughts, and if we slowly train our mind to stop buying into the thoughts we have, then we can slowly kill off our ego.


C: Another very common misconception, namely that thinking is a problem and that it can be reduced.
Consciousness is sometimes described as ‘that which thinks’, this is because thinking happens all the time. Indeed after every experience through one of the five senses, the consciousness at the mind door immediately follows to ‘make sense’ of the object. With more and more input from the different senses, concepts about things and situations are formed. Were these not to happen, we’d not be able to function in the conventional world at all. How could anyone communicate with another? Indeed how could a teacher teach and students learn if thinking didn’t arise to perform its function?! 

The problem is not that we think. The problem is in it being fueled by ignorance, attachment, aversion, conceit and worst of all, wrong understanding, day in day out. Thinking does not give rise to conceit, but rather conceit having arisen, begins to direct the show. All our thoughts, justifications and reasonings take on a direction determined by these unwholesome realities. This is why in any argument between two people who are angry; both parties go away feeling righteous about themselves. And why no amount of logic used by one person can change the beliefs and views held by another. 

This very idea to reduce / suppress thinking in order to give rise to desired states identified as ‘momentary death of ego’, is likely yet another line of thought dictated by the afore mentioned unwholesome realities. The fact being that thinking continues to arise and has only changed objects but now having a ‘different feel’. Besides ego or conceit, together with ignorance and craving for being, are the last of the tendencies to ever be eradicated at the point of complete enlightenment. To think otherwise and having thoughts to tackle it would be then reflection of misdirected efforts / ambition.

==========
Bhagat:
We essentially live at the mercy of the discursive dialogue that is always taking place within us. We are always talking to ourselves... I am doing so as I type. This dialogue is basically our ego. 


C: There are the three proliferations, namely craving, conceit and view. These are what drives our thoughts and they can very quickly alternate.

=========
Bhagat:
Many have found that once this mental discursive dialogue is quieted down, there are wonderful experiences to be had. There is 'happiness' and by that I mean well-being, to be found once the dialogue is quiet. Such happiness/well-being is independent of wordly things. it is independent of eating delicious foods or spending time with friends or family. it is independent of maya.


C: Attachment will take on any object, including the idea of “self being able to do without”. The question to ask of those who claim to dwell in states beyond that of sense pleasures is, what is known and what is understood about the experience? If they are unable to answer and appeal to ineffability with a broad smile, chances are that attachment is still very much at play, only delusion now plays a significant role as well. And this is Maya in one of its more tricky forms.

========= 
Bhagat:
A few questions arise at this point:
Is there really a happiness, a well-being that is independent of maya?


C: There is, but first we need to identify correctly what this maya really is. Not only we may miss out on the possibility of understanding what in fact is *not* maya, namely the conditioned phenomena, but may mistake states which in fact are still dependent on maya as being independent of it. So we come back to the need to develop understanding and not aim at happiness or anything else.

==========
Bhagat:
How do we start seeing (intuitively) the danger of attachment [*], and how do we eradicate our ego?
When we meditate. More specifically, when we train the mind, to notice our moment to moment experience. When we train it to see how our ego rises and falls, how it responds to things. Once we start to see it before our eyes, doing what it does, we can address it. 


C: And what if we are mistaken, would it not result in falling prey to illusion of result?
The very intention to observe or note starts off a train of thought which include the idea of “someone who is observing something”. This is Maya, the kind particularly tied to people who have heard about the need to be mindful and go about it fuelled by desire. 

I was just talking to a friend yesterday, who was a monk for a long time and disrobed about a year ago. He now has the idea of re-ordaining. I tried to reason with him about the wrong intentions involved and what the consequence of that would be. At the end of our discussion I told him about the need for all of us to acknowledge that we are ‘beginners’ and the need to always begin again and again. All this requires patience and courage.

My point is that we need to first and foremost recognize where we are at, being that it is only with this understanding that any progress can ever be made. If we don’t know our own strength and seek to overreach, we end up moving clumsily in the dark and going in circles. 

==========
Bhagat:
Meditation techniques often involve learning to focus and concentrate on mundane tasks, tasks that otherwise arouse little interest and little attention. 


C: And it is so easy to begin to have an interest in almost anything especially when supported by good reasons and particularly with the idea of having made some progress is projected into it all. ;-) 
=========
Bhagat:
This is so that we can train the mind to be senstive to our experiences, so that is able to notice minute things that happen within us. it would not be much of a training if it involved for example, watching TV to which we readily pay attention to.


C: Well, if we understand that there is only ever one moment of consciousness taking on one object at a time which has arisen and fallen away instantly, then watching TV is a situation no worse than being alone in the forest. Indeed we may come to realize that when understanding is absent, our whole waking life is akin to watching a film or being in a dream. The attachment to the stories of our lives is no different to the attachment to the stories we read in a book or in a movie. They are all the same.

==========
Bhagat:
Ego is almost invisible to the average Joe. So the first step in eleminating it, is to learn to notice it. 


C: Forget elimination; forget even “trying” to note. Think instead in terms of ‘developing understanding’ which will condition lending ear to the wise and engaging in discussions. Better to return to the beginning again and again. 

Sorry for such a long response. It likely is an overload, but I couldn’t help it. :-/


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 9, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji

Very fine message indeed.This is the crux of the message.

I have my own reservations in making use of the word GOD in reference to its conents.
{I am not against any wordas Noun or Adjective which may not be the content of SGGS}
I am only concerned the way these extra word is used.
Gurbaani is perfect in all respect.Does it require the use of any extra word to make us enable to understand Gurbaani.What I feel there can be Substitutional application rather than interstitial application of any extra word.We generally make interstitial use of the words like GOD and or PARMATMA which are not the contents of Gurbaani.This way there is lateral shift in the core concept of Gurbaani.

       If we read and understand Gurbaani carefully we would find that Gurbaani is all based on three PRIME WORDS ...GURU...GURu and GUR.Thus there can be nothing beyond the references of these three words.This is my personal obseration.You may pl verify this aspect of Gurbaani.

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Randip Singh (Jan 9, 2011)

what is the point of reading without understanding?swordfight


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 9, 2011)

IT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BE UNDERSTOOD?


Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Rakhraj (Jan 9, 2011)

Why is it that from the moment we wake up in the morning, we start striving? We keep striving, struggling, worrying throughout the day…everyday…till we go to sleep. And then we again lie awake for any length of time because of our worries, our fears, our wants, our greed. Why  can’t we simply relax with a cup of tea or coffee, our minds Quiet..our minds Still. But we strive! Strive to make a living. Strive to become something, someone. Strive to rid ourselves from some ailment or the other. And then we strive to rid our minds of worry.

  Wouldn’t it be something if we could live without strife, without effort? Effortless living! No strife.. no vague sense of Fear. …no wandering of the Mind. Above all, no Chattering inside the head--- that constant , meaningless and incessant chatter? Come to think of it, are we not going through Life as back-seats passengers in a car driven by a stranger? Effortless living….wouldn’t that be Wonderful…heavenly??

From early childhood we’ve been told, we’ve heard, we’ve read and we believe that the Mind—wonderful as it is!---is the cause of all our miseries. And it is true! It’s the mind that makes us angry and jealous and vindictive and greedy and lustful….! And in our own way, each of us tries to control the mind, to keep it from wandering, from chattering inside our head, to let us live in peace….quiet and stillness. Sadly, only a minuscule minority succeeds.

The answer lies, as Bhagat Singh ji rightly points out, in _Meditation._ Most of us tend to see meditation as some sort of mystery, a practice that will  give us mystical (_ridhian, sidhian_) experiences. It does nothing of the sort. It simply means to watch the mind without choice, without  judgment and without any effort.

I never cease to wonder at the irony of it all: The Mind! That most _wondrous of God’s gifts_. Yet it’s the same mind that’s the culprit where man’s happiness is concerned. It’s a great tool, the greatest by far as compared to man made ones. It gives us the power to conceive of the Unseen, the Unheard, the Untouched…it gives us the power to conceive of the concept of _Akaalpurkh_..or _Waheguru._ It gives us the ability to conceive and produce such great things as Art and Music. And, at a more mundane level, the means to traverse vast distances by means of transportation hitherto only in the realm of dreams. It gives us the power to communicate with people all over the world through telephony, Internet.. you name it. And yet, the Mind with all these divine attributes, is the one faculty that is solely responsible for robbing us of that state of mind we value above everything else…_Happiness and Peace._

One is bound to come up, sooner or later, with the Question whether, by some act of divine miracle or human magic, there is a way…any way..of controlling this ‘beast’ that makes Life so miserable? The answer, obviously is: NO. There simply is no easy way, magical way to make the mind stop its wandering and creating frightening illusions. But _there is a way to watch where the Mind goes when it embarks on its wanderings, when it creates illusions that make us miserable._

And here lies the beauty of what Bhagat Singh ji says: the Simple act of watching the mind while it wanders, of being aware—simply, without judgment, without choice---of its wanderings, STOPS The MIND! Yes, it actually stops wandering….stops chattering inside our heads..stops being the ‘beast’ that constantly haunts us with its unfounded fears, its illusions! The mind becomes Quiet…and Still. It is still live, but lying dormant till such time You, its Master, gives it a command to do your bidding. Somewhat like the fictional ‘gin’ in the bottle?  Maybe, but nevertheless, Quiet…Still! This is what _Meditation_ is all about: simply being aware of where the Mind goes on its wanderings…what it is doing or building at any given moment. Tall task? Yes, very! But with devotion and time, it becomes gradually easier and, extremely fulfilling.

One needs no fancy masters or gurus to teach us ‘How to Meditate’. Just knowing the basic fact that forcing the Mind into anything, good or bad only makes it stronger and hence, more recalcitrant. You do not have to concentrate or focus on anything or anyone. All you have to do is to remain mentally awake and alert, mentally aware of the Mind, its wanderings. _It’s enough!_

Then what, one might ask, when the Mind stops and becomes quiet, if it does? These Questions become the first casualty of the Quiet & Still Mind: they become simply _irrelevant_. What becomes sharply relevant is a new faculty that is much better tuned to receive and internalize the full import of the divine ‘Gurbani’. It understands what Love is: love without the _object of love_ or even the _one that loves_. It begins to understand that _Love simply is. It does not result in rapture or euphoria. It nevertheless results in the absence of misery, of worry, of fear….And that is :HAPPINESS!_



BhagatSingh said:


> Many hold that simply reading gurbani and not understanding a word is worthless. A while ago, I would have agreed that reading page after page without attempting to understand a word is a pointless task. But there is something to be gained through this practice.
> 
> It is certainly beneficial to read and understand gurbani. There is no doubt about this. If one understands the Guru's message and puts it into practice, there is no match for this.  The real problem is when one only reads for the sake of reading. I will call this shallow reading, as opposed to deep reading, which includes understanding.
> 
> ...


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## Seeker9 (Jan 9, 2011)

Another fine thread which I will need to make the time to read through...

As a general observation, I would suggest the purpose of any reading is to take in some level of information which results in a change of understanding/knowledge so you are in a different position to that which you would have been without having read anything at all

Reading itself can require different levels of effort e.g reading a novel or travel directions or studying. Studying can require personal reflection on what you have read to see if you understand it well enough to be examined on it. So, it could be argued that shallow reading of a textbook may not be the best approach to guarantee exam success! 

In a similar vein, whilst I would applaud the discipline of making the attempt to read Scripture in the first place, I would suggest shallow reading of Scripture, without an attempt at personal reflection and understanding as well, is ultimately a wasted effort. 

How can you use what you have read if you don't understand it???

I sometimes refer to SGGS as an instruction manual written by experts. 

If you don't understand the instructions, how will you build anything? You may not be able to build a display cabinet without understanding instructions so why should Scripture be any different?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 9, 2011)

SEEKER9Ji,
Divine Greetings,

With due regard to the views of your message in the post the contents are appreciable.But I would disagree with your ppoint of view on SGGS  as instruction manual written by experts.
SGGS is the only Granth in the world which provides complete and perfect knowledge about the WORD GURU  known hitherto.In the Granths of other philosophy the word GURU is used in terms as TEACHER only.Whereas the meaning of the word GURU in SGGS is quite different.That is why this is the only Granth being reffered as SGGS.
All other Granths of the world are equally respectable as all provide a distict level of knowledge.I do have equal and great respect of all other Granths too.

The knowledge of SGGS is very specific and so fierce that manytimes we are amazed and may find difficult to digest because of our own ignorance.
I hope you to look into the contents of SGGS to make your own assessment in this regard.
With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 9, 2011)

spn'rs ji:  Some inputs for review and comment.

1.  "Harry Rakhraj ji:  Then what, one might ask, when the Mind stops and becomes quiet, if it does? These Questions become the first casualty of the Quiet & Still Mind: they become simply irrelevant. What becomes sharply relevant is a new faculty that is much better tuned to receive and internalize the full import of the divine ‘Gurbani’."

"Harry Rakhraj ji:  The answer lies, as Bhagat Singh ji rightly points out, in Meditation. Most of us tend to see meditation as some sort of mystery, a practice that will give us mystical (ridhian, sidhian) experiences. It does nothing of the sort. It simply means to watch the mind without choice, without judgment and without any effort."

I am sorry you cannot have your cake and eat it too.  It is not possible for mind to be quiet ("quiet and still"," Mind stops and becomes quiet" your phrases ) while you are alive.  It is a living organism conscious and sub-conscious designed to be active all the time during life just like our heart, our lungs, etc.  You actually need mental activites and power to be at full force for better understanding.  Mind's silence can be called death while verbal silence can be golden at times.


2.  "Bhagat Singh ji:  Yes merely doing those things you mention won't help at all. and I understand this is what is commonly done. And it's because meditation itself, the point when you are actually meditating, when the meditation is successful, is actually very hard to get to. The experience of meditation is for most a momentary experience. It is momentary because it is difficult for the mind to stay in this state.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji points to us that ego is what prevents us from getting there. Once the ego is diminished then that state can be activated 24/7 or 8 peher."

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for starting this valuable thread I request a clarification of your thoughts:

A.  Give an example from Guru Granth Sahib ji that you want to shallow read having absolutely no or little concept of what it says (word, sentence, sloak, or a bani)? 

Reason for clarification:  
-  Because, you cannot forego a meaning or read without assigning significance of some sort or meaning as the phonetics of the sound itself has a meaning.  

-  Furthermore once you get assignment of meaning whether it is right or wrong, you can never forego it as mind entries are not eraseable and mind if push comes to shove can retrace majority of its threads and writings or imprints.

3.  "Prakash.s.bagga:  IT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BE UNDERSTOOD?"

Comment:  

I absolutely appreciate your contributions but may have either mis-read your intent but I do want to make some observations for general discourse not specific to your writing.

I believe the beauty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is that you don't need to either set expectations or study with the concept of something you are looking for.

The reason being you will most likely find it in the wrong context.  There is such a large body that resulted from such in the form of sant, mahants, babey, self-proclaimed gurus, veggie-non-veggie, meditation, elimination of (kam, karodh, lobh, moh and hankar) lectures/parchariks, naam versus "Naam Gurbani", kalyug, 8,400,000 iterations of life, and so on.

The typical methodology is Single words out of context, tuks out of context, and sometimes even sloaks out of context are quoted or used to create a following of believers or virtual groupies.

So bottomline from my understanding is:  

The more you read and understand the essence you will be enabled to experience the essence.  Many of the trivialities will be gone and you will still have a practical life without trying to control or quieten your mind.  As a matter of fact your mind will brim with ideas, understandings and bliss otherwise hard to get.


*General not poster specific**:*
I do see value for meditation in the context of a life driven by schedules, rigours or doing things while doing "kirat" that you really wouldn't be doing if you did not need "kamai".  It can be used as a healer and invigorater of your body.  Healthy body can lead to healthier mind.  However for true spirituality and discovering the God within and everywhere I see little purpose for the same.

Sikhi is so full of great examples of our Gurus who while doing practical activities and living life brought us Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  

In sikhi again, Our Gurus also taught us very many practical lessons and providing guidance on kam, karodh, lobh, moh and hankar where the purpose is to control the demons rather than try slaying them for all your life.  This is one area also I feel great anguish when I hear some parchariks get the sangat to think in great self-doubt as though they were so maligned, so bad, and so full of faults and with little good in them that they were nothing. In such state of shock, people's wallets open up pretty easily is the stark reality.  I wish there was more uplifting in our prachar approach so that we do not alienate our future generations.

Sorry about long post and any indiscretions in quoting, as I believe I am in the company of people who know more than know less.

Sat Sri Akal.peacesign


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 10, 2011)

Harry ji, Bhagat ji, All,


Not to be argumentative, but only wish to repeat what I’ve said in previous posts within different context. 

My son on seeing that I was spending so much time in my response to Bhagat ji asked why I was doing this, was I trying to change Sikhs to Buddhism?  I answered that I was throwing ideas at the people here with the hope that it will be useful at some level, like throwing seeds without thinking to come back to check whether any of them have germinated. But on the other hand I can’t help reacting to the prospect of weeds also growing in the place….  


Harry:
Why is it that from the moment we wake up in the morning, we start striving? We keep striving, struggling, worrying throughout the day…everyday…till we go to sleep. And then we again lie awake for any length of time because of our worries, our fears, our wants, our greed. Why can’t we simply relax with a cup of tea or coffee, our minds Quiet..our minds Still. But we strive! Strive to make a living. Strive to become something, someone. Strive to rid ourselves from some ailment or the other. And then we strive to rid our minds of worry.


C: There are also people who go to bed with a smile, wake up with a smile and spend their day without any kind of strife. When asked if they ever have any unwholesome thoughts, would sincerely answer that they don’t. However if and when they hear about and begin to understand what ignorance, attachment, aversion, conceit etc. on one hand really are and what characterizes wholesome states such as generosity, morality, kindness, compassion and so on, they will begin to see that their life is not as they thought it was. 

Relaxing with a cup of tea or coffee is desirable for those whose life is full of strife and worries. But they should not then go on to make the mistake of thinking that such is reflection of a life with little ignorance and greed. Our lives are driven by greed for sure; else we wouldn’t even be born! But greed towards apparently simple things is still greed and only adds to the tendency. Better acknowledge this even if nothing can be done about it, than make the mistake of trying to replace one kind of greed with another. Worse is when the association is made with some course of action undertaken and the fact that one is finally able to relax with a cup of tea is seen as a milestone of success. 

===========
Harry:
The answer lies, as Bhagat Singh ji rightly points out, in Meditation. Most of us tend to see meditation as some sort of mystery, a practice that will give us mystical (ridhian, sidhian) experiences. It does nothing of the sort. It simply means to watch the mind without choice, without judgment and without any effort.


C: Yes, some people aim for special experiences and that is clearly ignorance and greed at play. Recognizing such obvious manifestations of greed does not however automatically mean that our own perception of things is with wisdom. I may judge another person’s habit of over drinking and getting drunk as wrong and think that I am right in having only a glass of wine with dinner. 

The idea of choiceless awareness is attractive and was the hallmark of Krishnamurti’s teachings whose thoughts impressed me very much at one point in my life, but not anymore.  Now I recognize what he taught in this regard as being just a more subtle form of self-indulgence.  Sincere no doubt, but missing the point.

========
Harry:
I never cease to wonder at the irony of it all: The Mind! That most wondrous of God’s gifts. Yet it’s the same mind that’s the culprit where man’s happiness is concerned.


C: So why don’t you pause for a moment and consider: Is it the “mind” proper, or could it be the different mental concomitants conditioned to arise together with consciousness, one time this and another time that? Misidentification of the problem has grave consequences.

=========
Harry:
It’s a great tool, the greatest by far as compared to man made ones. It gives us the power to conceive of the Unseen, the Unheard, the Untouched…….. It gives us the ability to conceive and produce such great things as Art and Music.


C: And this I see as one consequence of not being able to identify the real enemy, namely ignorance and greed. What is so great about a Rembrandt or a Bach fugue? Ask me.

When I was in my twenties I was interested in music composition. I was being taught music theory for free, by a man who got a doctorate in some conservatoire in Russia because he was impressed by my musical ideas and thought that I could become a very good composer. I used to pride in being original, until one day when I had to acknowledge that a little piece that I had written was in fact influenced by two past composers, Bartok and Prokofiev. I realized at the time that in reality, throughout the history of music, there was no such thing as originality, not Wagner, not Schoenberg, not anyone. This caused me to lose interest and finally drop any ambition towards this end.

Today I recognize the music which still goes on in my head from time to time as being a proliferation no different from any rambling or discursive thinking. So I’d suggest that rather than see a Picasso or a Beethoven as being somehow superior to a graffiti on a wall or a song by Frank Zappa, see it merely as being  expressions of the variegated nature of consciousness, acknowledging at the same time, that Beethoven’s greed is not somehow better than that of Zappa’s.

==========
Harry:
One is bound to come up, sooner or later, with the Question whether, by some act of divine miracle or human magic, there is a way…any way..of controlling this ‘beast’ that makes Life so miserable? The answer, obviously is: NO. There simply is no easy way, magical way to make the mind stop its wandering and creating frightening illusions. But there is a way to watch where the Mind goes when it embarks on its wanderings, when it creates illusions that make us miserable.


C: And if you were to one day see that no state of mind in fact lasts longer than a fraction of a finger snap, and if you got a glimpse of the fact that it is ignorance which causes you to think otherwise, would you still react this way? Indeed we often react with aversion to aversion (misery being one manifestation) which causes us to then seek objects to attach to. But clearly this creates more problems does it not? Why misery should be singled out as being a problem when in fact it is just another fleeting phenomenon, one amongst many of which we have no understanding at all about? Is it not then that ignorance is the real enemy and the imperative hence is to develop more understanding of whatever it is that appears now? In other words, why dwell on one aspect of your experience which only leads away from coming to understand the reality now? 

===========
Harry:
And here lies the beauty of what Bhagat Singh ji says: the Simple act of watching the mind while it wanders, of being aware—simply, without judgment, without choice---of its wanderings, The MIND STOPS! Yes, it actually stops wandering….stops chattering inside our heads..stops being the ‘beast’ that constantly haunts us with its unfounded fears, its illusions!


C: And what is the “reality” at such times? Is it ‘chatter’, or ‘calm’, or ‘quiet’, or ‘non-wondering’, or ‘non-judgement’? No, these are just “concepts” and are so even if we did not attach any label. The reality which can be understood at the time would be “thinking”, or else the accompanying pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling, or the characteristic of consciousness itself could be known. These are the realities as against the associated ideas projected. In other words when the object of consciousness is a ‘thought’, the thought itself is not real, but the ‘thinking’ is. Thoughts do not arise and fall away and if you get the impression that it does, you can be sure that it is just another train of thought coming into play. On the other hand, when any of this is taking place, insight into the ‘thinking’ could arise, being that this is one of the mental phenomena arisen by conditions at the time. 

And does the mind stop at any point? This could only be an illusion and yet another instance of thinking, only this time conditioned by the worst of the unwholesome realities, namely wrong understanding.

===========
Harry:
This is what Meditation is all about: simply being aware of where the Mind goes on its wanderings…what it is doing or building at any given moment. Tall task? Yes, very! But with devotion and time, it becomes gradually easier and, extremely fulfilling.


C: Easier and easier by force of attachment and wrong understanding which we all have an infinite supply of. And so we end up just adding to the problem instead of dealing with it in the correct manner.

==========
Harry:
Then what, one might ask, when the Mind stops and becomes quiet, if it does? These Questions become the first casualty of the Quiet & Still Mind: they become simply irrelevant. What becomes sharply relevant is a new faculty that is much better tuned to receive and internalize the full import of the divine ‘Gurbani’. It understands what Love is: love without the object of love or even the one that loves. It begins to understand that Love simply is. It does not result in rapture or euphoria. It nevertheless results in the absence of misery, of worry, of fear….And that is :HAPPINESS!


C: Love.
Next time when it happens, you may notice that a moment of kindness towards a stranger exhibits a quality of mind very different from what you likely feel during meditation. You’d know loving-kindness and how this is different from attachment which we sometimes label as ‘love’ and how one is good while the other is not. You’d also know that this can’t arise without the perception of another being and yes, it does not differentiate between different beings. No idea however, of this being “simply is”. There must be an object towards whom that loving kindness is directed. But it does not matter that it has arisen only once or a little, what matters is that it is the real thing. No aim to make it arise such that one then feels immersed in it. 

And what of the possibility of ego coming into play when what has been identified as love is in fact attachment? What if it plays the role of both the one showered over with love and one who emanates it, the insignificant “I” and also the cosmic one?

I’ve been very critical, but please don’t take it wrongly.


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## Harry Rakhraj (Jan 10, 2011)

The time, effort and thought that has obviously gone into this impressive critique by Confused ji shows, to me at least, how seriously he treats the subject. And am indeed grateful to him for doing me the favor of reading my humble offering. This is not to say that I agree or disagree with his critique, only that I appreciate his contribution to the discussion.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 10, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I agree in totto with your bottomline of understanding with reference to Gurbaani.The experience of essence is what has been reffered as "GOONGE KEE MITHAI"  and this is individual experience which can not be shared.
But there is always second aspect of knowledge that is subject of sharing and we are here for this .You will appreciate the fact that the flow of knowledge can not be stopped.
ARCHEMEDESE ran naked to declare what he came to know.
Wecan consider an example of the flow of electricity from the point of generation.Just as electricitylights every bulb or tube it is connected to irrespective of the WATTAGE of Bulb or Tube.Similarly Reading of Gurbaani even without understanding is definitely going enlighten the person depending upon the WATTAGE of his understanding.The only difference would be that a person with knowledge of electricity can make application in different ways for himself and for others.Thus any person properly enlighted with the knowledge can guide others about the correct application of knowledge of Gurbaani
It is this conext I mentionted that it is equally important to know as what isrequired to be understood.and it is an addendum to the previous message.
I am strongly of the view that we are basically required to know how to understand the language of our GURU SGGS .Unless we understand the language we will not be able to make out understanding of the message of GURU.We may not be required to interprate the Gurbaani the way we do.But if we understand the language of our GURU we may not be cheated with wrong interpretation.

If we peep inside ourselves we would find we have accepted and are accepting whateverever is beingtold by few group of persons without understanding and knowing correctness from our SGGS.As a true Gursikh  Anyone is required to know the correctness of what is being told.So everyGursikh can verify if he or she understands the language of SGGS.We are doing nothing in this regard.Closing the eyes from the problems will not be a solution.
If still we dont consider our sacred duty towardsSGGS we would be loosing the great treasure handed over to us
I am, only a small  Sewak of my GURU.I have no personal interest whatsoever.I simply share my views whereever I feel doing so,
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Seeker9 (Jan 10, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SEEKER9Ji,
> Divine Greetings,
> 
> With due regard to the views of your message in the post the contents are appreciable.But I would disagree with your ppoint of view on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as instruction manual written by experts.
> ...


 

Dear Prakash Ji

Sometimes I over-simplify things!

Many thanks for the clarification


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jan 12, 2011)

Dear all, 

wjkk,wjkf.

I am commenting to the two issues:

(1) ] piV piV BUlih cotw Kwih ] bhuqu isAwxp Awvih jwih ] nwmu jpY Bau Bojnu Kwie ] gurmuiK syvk rhy smwie ]5] Reading makes one confused and is punished, is not understood from the Mukhwat from Harmandar Sahib ji on 16 Poh. May I submit that the meaning of the stanza has not been properly understood. I give below the correct meaning of this stanza as written by Dr. Sahib Ji who has done the complete interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib ji in ten volumes:
jyhVy mnu`K (iv`idAw) pVH pVH ky (iv`idAw dy mwx ivc hI ismrn qoN) KMuJ jWdy hn auh (Awqmk mOq dIAW) cotW sihMdy hn [ (iv`idAw dI) bhuqI cqurweI dy kwrn jnm mrn dy gyV ivc pYNdy hn [ jyhVw jyhVw mnu`K pRBU dw nwm jpdw hY qy pRBU dy fr-Adb ƒ Awpxy Awqmw dI ^urwk bxWdw hY, auh syvk gurU dI srn pY ky pRBU ivc lIn rihMdy hn [5[
The correct meaning is that by reading too much into any text ( I mean religious texts), makes one proud and if one goes astray from the humbleness and devotion to God, has to be punished because of the "haume" (ahankar of vidya) and thus the Guru Ji has warned that even if one is very learned, one should continue to be humble and devoted to the rememberance of God and Service of the Humanity. 

(2) The other toping is : Meditation: I very humbly submit that the word meditation has a different meaning in so far as Guru Granth Sahib ji is concerned and the one that is derieved from the Sanatan texts. In GGS, the word is used to denote that one should read the messages from Guru ji in a composed and calm manner when the mind is still and does not think of any worldly issues. In the process of the meditation in Gurmat, one has not to go to the thoughtless state, but to think positively on the text of Gurbani and take the message enshrined in Gurbani into the think tank and then keep it in memory so that the thought of the Guru is used in our day to day actions of Sewa, Simran and in enriching our lives accordingly. The meditation of Sidhas, Yogis is totally different and has been rejected when Guru ji says : 'Jog na paya, jugat gavai, kit karan sir chaayee payee" So let us not compare the methodology of Meditation of other religions with Gurmat and get confused. Guru ji has praised the practice of Naam Simran everywhere in GGS. I humbly request my friends to kindly give a thought to it. Mind is only a collectinof thoughts and we have to mould our mind according to the thoughts of Guruji enshriend in GGS. animatedkhanda1Tejinder Singh Delhi.


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## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2011)

Tejindersinghdehli ji

I want to put what you wrote inside a fancy picture frame and hang in on the wall where I can see it every day. THANKS I needed to read what you wrote...so clearly ji.


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jan 13, 2011)

animatedkhanda1Dear all,wjkk,wjkf.  The issue regardng shallow reading and deep reading is a very interesting one.  Before me, some of the enlightened souls have attempted answers.  I appreciate the same.    I feel that mere concentration on any intem of work or words without understanding their meaning and purpose is of only momentary value and it would not lead to any spiritual attainment of calming down of mind, for the reasons for disturbance of mind lie not in the noise outside, but inside in one's thoughts and action.  Therefore, Guru Ji devised the system of deep reading of Gurbani and understading its text which has the remedy for all ailments of of our mind, which got disturbed due to illustionment of Maya and distracted the mind from the spiritual path.  Therefore, to get back to the spiritual path and purify our mind of the pollutants of Vishe Vikars is Gurbani/Gurshabads.    Gurbani has been created in such way that it has a soothing effect on mind like Japuji Sahib, Sukhmani Sahib , Anand Sahib, to name a few, though we get soothing effect while reading, but permanent soothing shall come only when we understand it by deep reading and implementing it in our daily life will change our life from Manmukh to Gurmukh.   Mere repition of any particular word shall have no permanent effect on our remoulding of our mind.  Gurbani says " Ram Ram sabh jag karda bhire, ram na paya jaye" and Ram Ram sabh ko kahe, kahiyan Ram na hoye,Gurparsadi Ram man vase, tao phal paye koye".  The training of our mind has been decribed in detail in " Jat pahara, dheeraj suniar, ahran mat, ved hathiar, bhau khala agan tap tao, bhanda bhao, amrit  *** hal, ghariye shabad sachi taksal' in Japuji Sahib.  Let us never adocating any benefit from "Idol Worship" or Tota Ratan of any Nam, as advocated by Hindus or Sufis.  This would only confuse our Sikhs, if these practices had any advantage, Guru must have added somewhere in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  With regards and all humility, I remain, 
Guru Panth da Daas - Tejinder Singh Delhi.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 13, 2011)

SHALLOW READING AND MEDITATION

It would be pertinent to know as to what is the method of understanding of Gurbaani 
according to GURU SAHIB Ji.This may kindly be elaborated so that we can become aware of the relevent method of understanding.
Simly by mentionintg the importance of understanding is of no use as everyone appreciates it is always better to understand Gurbaani but no one is pointiing how to understand Gurbaani.
We should come forward for this .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 13, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SHALLOW READING AND MEDITATION
> 
> It would be pertinent to know as to what is the method of understanding of Gurbaani
> according to GURU SAHIB Ji.This may kindly be elaborated so that we can become aware of the relevent method of understanding.
> ...



Its quite easy...IF we want to understand...

KIV SACHIAARA HOEEAH..kiv kurreh tutteh paal...? How cna we become Sachiarehs..and How can the Wall of Falsehood be broken..??
And the answer is provided..HUKM RAZAEE CHALLNNA !!!

WE KNOW that the Five thieves are roundly condmened in Gurbani...for a start lets try CONTROLLING them...our Lust..our greed..our attachment..our Hankaar..our KRODH...
WE KNOW He is TRUTH..His name is TRUTH..and Gurbani tells us..TRUTH is HIGH  higher still is TRUTHFUL LIVING...
Lets begin a Life of TRUTH...tell NO LIES...LIVE no LIES..speak no lies..do no lies..listen to no lies...bein living life TRUTHFULLY...HONESTLY..on our own Hakks and not Praya Haaks...stop peeping at prayeean dheean, bhenna, wives..mothers....stop stealing...stop cheating...

We each has got about an average of 60-70 YEARS to do all this...its not easy..BUT can be DONE..if we want to...we try and we fail..we try again..and again..until we get it...GURBANI is NOT a "Theory of relativity...or Theory of Gravity..or whatever..IRS A PRACTICAL RECIPE to PRACTISE DAILY.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 13, 2011)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH JI
I fully appreciate your views but I strongly differ as there is no indication of the method of understanding of Gurbaani.These are very clear messages for leading the life.
  we have been knowing this for the last many years
If this is so then there is no need for knowing anything else.

With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jan 13, 2011)

Der Parkash Singh Ji ( Bagga),

wjkk,wjkf.

I thank you for asking this very important question as to how do we understand Gurbani.  As u know for every language there is a Grammer to understand the exact meaning of a word and sentences that make Gurbani text.  Dr.Sahib Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji of Akhand Kirtani Jatha had made Gurbani Grammer and Gurbani Lagan Matra Vilakhanta.  In Gurbani, unlike, the use of matras is quite different.  For singular and plural, the 'U" di matra has been used for singular noun and without "u" it is for plural noun.  Similarly, the use of sihari and bihari are used differently.  It may not be possible to discuss all the grammer in this amall reply.  I would request u to please procure the one from SGPC  or any other punjabi book seller.  Besides, the full interpretation of Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been done in 10 volumes by Dr. Sahib Singh Ji and are available from SGPC and Bhasha Vibhag, Patiala.   Unless we read Gurbani by understanding on knowing its exact meaning, the exact impact of Gurbani in shaping our lives and getting us rid of evils through practicising Dos and Donts as illustrated in Gurbani, shall not be possible.   I also suggest u regularly attend some Gurmat classes in your city or town.  In due course of time, u will  definitely, I am sure, not only be able to understand Gurbani but also tell others.  The real import of Gurbani reading, understand is to shape our lives according to the directions enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the impact of Meditation on Gurbani text shall be felt by everyone who undergoes this session.    May Waheguru ji bless us all and lead us to understanding Gurbani.  This is the living Treasure left  by our Gurus for the benefit of their disciples in this Kalyuga.  With best regards and Gur Fateh.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 13, 2011)

TEJINDERSINGH DELHI JI,
Pl accept my Divine Greetings,
I am greatly delighted to have seen your response in reference to the understanding of Gurbaani.You have rightly pointed out the way Gurbaani should be understand.
You will also appreciate the fact that generally people are not interested in this way of Gurbaani understanding.People find the Subject Grammer as dry and are hardly prepared to accept the meanings if presented based on the grammer of the words.
I am strong advocate for gramatical understanding of Gurbaani.

By the grace of SATiGURu Ji I am well conversant with the pattern of Gurbaani Grammer.I have already gone thru in detail the books you have mentioned.But so far as even their interpretations of Gurbaani is concerned I find that grammatical considerations seem to have been ommitted for reasons best known to the interprators.

If we really are serious in understanding Gurbaani as per Grammatical considerations we will have to be verry very fair to the application of grammer.Once we are able to do this we are certainly going to have a new vista of Gurbaani understanding never imagined so far.

I am sure all viewers would give a due consideration to this .
Once again thanking you
With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 13, 2011)

Parkash S. Bagga ji thanks for your post and insights.

I would like to know from you and Aman Singh ji as to your ranking of the most appropriate translation existing todate in the following categories:



Gurmukhi to Gurmakhi
I have been lately reading parts of Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Viakaran and Professor Sahib have indicated his own limits in interpreting noting the following,
Translation no matter how accurate can be tainted on translator's training, upbringing and knowledge
The Gurbani contents cover a span of almost 500 years taking Baba Farid ji's portion into account
Professor Sahib Singh ji note that Punjabi itself changed over that time span and one needs to sink into that mental space and time to do justice

The references to Hindu, Islam practices and stories about various dieties in Hinduism are very difficult to translate in meaning unless one has studied or good understanding of those myths/novels/writings
Professor Sahib Singh ji has added lot of great explanations to elaborate where these occur so that people get better essence of the translation/arths
I personally am pretty deficient in this area other than Ram lellah level understanding of Ramayan from watching these Ram lellah plays around Diwali in Amritsar


Would I be fair to assign the following ranking and I would like to get a list of say top 3,
Professor Sahib Singh ji Viakaran
?
?


Gurmukhi to English
This is a much simpler task if one basis it on a reference work as identified in 1 above
Even I can translate some shabads say from Professor Sahib Singh ji's Viakaran
Some of the translations I have seen tend to be virtually literal or near to literal versus what Professor Sahib Singh ji's Viakaran which does literal, transcribed to prose and finally translated to essence.
Professor Sahib Singh ji point out that unless you see and read Guru Granth Sahib ji as in the following that you will not be successful in understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji,
As written -> literal simplified meaning -> essence of the sloak -> then the complete Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji




I appreciate your comments, inputs and guidance in this regard.

Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 13, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

Pl accept my Divine Greetings,

I thank you for considering to present my views in subject matter mentioned in your post.

It would me a great pleasure for me if any of my views can be of any use for your perusal of Gurbaani.Your question has put me in a state of being nervous to present any views on the subject matter. However I shall try my best to put my views in the most positive way.

As you are already going thru the Gurbaani interpretations undertaken by Pro SAHIB SINGH Ji. It self it is a good start and I am sure you must be gaining useful understanding of Gurbaani. In this connection I may suggest to go thru two volumes of Gurbaani Grammar written by S JOGINDER SINGH TALWARA Ji. I find the Grammar treatise of Prof SAHIB SINGH Ji a bit hard to comprehend for the beginners.For this Gurbaani grammar by S JOGINDER SINGH TALWARA Ji is better for easy understanding of grammar of Gurbaani words.
GURMUKHI to GURMUKHI interpretations:...

The contribution of different interpreters is most respectable as all have put their best efforts to present the interpretations as close as possible to the grammar considerations.There are some deviations in all due to certain  unmentioned limitations.

We all should be grateful for their contributions.Their contributions are definitely going to guide to the further interpretations of Gurbaani.

My observation is that so far everyone has made interpretation without consideration of the CORE CONCEPT OF GURBAANI. Probably this is the major cause of deviations in interpretations. All interpreters did talk of Gurbaani grammar but all overlooked the sincere application of grammar.

So in view of above consideration all interpretations can be put at PAR and no no 12or 3 can be assigned for the quality of interpretation.

GURMUKHI to ENGLISH:......

Here at the first place you can observe that while making transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from GURMUKHI to ENGLISH there is absolute change in the form of Gurbaani words from grammar point of view. So there is very grim situation for correct interpretation of Gurbaani as per English Version of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is why probably even Prof Sahib Singh has rightly mentioned that it would be better to go thru Gurmukhi version also to get the correct understanding of Gurbaani.

So this is a matter of grave concern for understanding Gurbaani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

Here I may take an opportunity to mention about the CORE CONCEPT OF GURBAANI. By CORE CONCEPT OF GURBAANI I mean BASIC CONCEPT around which moves the understanding of the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If this can be understood based on grammatical consideration of three PRIME WORDS of Gurbaani GURU/GURu and GUR then with knowledge of just vocabulary of Gurbaani words I feel any one can ask for the GRACE of SATiGURU ji to get the understanding of the whole of Gurbaani of his own.

We can only observe and share our views on the observations but the actual understanding of Gurbaani shall be given by SATiGURu Ji only.

I hope this may be just enough and I may be excused for any mistake in presenting the views.

May SATiGURu Ji overlook anything wrong presented.

With best Wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jan 14, 2011)

Dear Parkash Singh (Bagga) ji, waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh. I am in total agreement with your explanations and views on the Gurbani understnding  on the basis of Gurbani grammers currently in the market.  We stoutly salute those Gurmukhs like Dr.Sahib Singh Ji, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara, for their pioneering efforts in this direction.  I also appreciate your understanding of the Gurbani Grammer and the analysis presented by you of differnt grammers.  I also agree that the best Gurbani understanding can be only on the basis of Gurbani Grammer and not without it whatever the amount of devotion or energy put into it.   One can not learn Sanskrit, English, Latin or French based  only on devotion without following their Grammer.   We must stress on reading the original text of Gurbani as enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and understand its basic principles.  Any translation can be based only on the basis of clariity of these themes which form the core of Sikh Philisophy as revealed in the Gurbani Text of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.    I wish S.Parkash Singh could take a lead and start and Gurbani Grammer understanding course step by step for the benefit of on line students like me.  I am sure S.Parkash Singh would definitely take up this challenge willingly and offer his invaluable services for the Panthic cause.  With regards,  

Tejinder Singh Delhi.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 14, 2011)

Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> Dear Parkash Singh (Bagga) ji, waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh. I am in total agreement with your explanations and views on the Gurbani understnding  on the basis of Gurbani grammers currently in the market.  We stoutly salute those Gurmukhs like Dr.Sahib Singh Ji, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara, for their pioneering efforts in this direction.  I also appreciate your understanding of the Gurbani Grammer and the analysis presented by you of differnt grammers.  I also agree that the best Gurbani understanding can be only on the basis of Gurbani Grammer and not without it whatever the amount of devotion or energy put into it.   One can not learn Sanskrit, English, Latin or French based  only on devotion without following their Grammer.   We must stress on reading the original text of Gurbani as enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and understand its basic principles.  Any translation can be based only on the basis of clariity of these themes which form the core of Sikh Philisophy as revealed in the Gurbani Text of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.    I wish S.Parkash Singh could take a lead and start and Gurbani Grammer understanding course step by step for the benefit of on line students like me.  I am sure S.Parkash Singh would definitely take up this challenge willingly and offer his invaluable services for the Panthic cause.  With regards,
> 
> Tejinder Singh Delhi.



Please forgive me,  Tejinder Singh Delhi ji. Please forgive me, Ambarsaria ji.  Please indulge me, moderators.  I cannot be silent any longer.  It's spelled g-r-a-m-m-a-r, grammar.  I know this isn't the point, but surely, spelling is as important as grammar? :noticekudi:


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jan 14, 2011)

_Mai Harinder Kaur ji,_

_Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh._

_I sincerely apologize for mis-spelling GRAMMAR due to oversight.  I am sure you were hurt due to these mis-spelling, but surely how would you feel when there mis-interpretation of Gurbani by so called Sants/Sadhs who do Gurbani Katha without following the Gurbani Grammar.   I wish Harinder Kaur ji, could also contribute her views on the correct understanding of Gurbani through Gurbani Gammar.  I would also like to add that we should write Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh in complete formwhen begining our messages/views for those who are Sikhs, for this salutation carries divine blessings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. _

_With regards and Gur Fateh.  _


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 14, 2011)

Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> _Mai Harinder Kaur ji,_
> 
> _Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh._
> 
> ...




OK.  
_Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh.

There are as many ways of reading and understanding Gurbani as there are are Sikhs, imo.  I am a simple Sikh who deeply loves her Guru ji.  I read it trying to see what Guru is saying, the meaning of a particular shabad or tuk in context.  

A more scholarly Sikh would look at other aspects such as grammar and the like.  Both approaches - and many others - I see as legitimate.  The most important thing is to study it with an open mind and heart and a lively intelligence and curiosity.

I think it hinges on motive for reading/studying Gurbani.   If it is studied to find fault or to win debates, no doubt the person will find fault and win debates.  (I do have a sneaking suspicion that even there, some of the spiritual message of Guru ji will seep into the reader's consciousness.)  If it is read with love and the attempt to learn the truth and wisdom therein, one will grow in love and will learn some of the truth and wisdom therein, whatever method is used.  No study of Guru ji is wasted.

Each of us is where s/he is on this wondrous passage across "the terrifying world-ocean."  I have found it most useful not to criticise whatever methods others use to propel themselves across.  In the end, it is really Guru ji who hold the oars and does the rowing.

BTW, I am in complete agreement with you about writing out the fateh.  I personally find "WJKK WJKF" a tiny bit disrespectful, but I don't make an issue of it.  The intention of the person is usually good and so, I let it pass.  Also, the Fateh is used only at the beginning and end of a conversation, so I think it need be used only in one's first post in a thread and not thereafter.
_


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 14, 2011)

mai ji..beautifully said.

Man may have "known" about Kaam lust krodh, anger, jelaousy, lobh attachment hankaar pride etc etc since the creation....BUT still we STRUGGLE DAILY..even NOW with these Five thieves who are strong and evergreen.

These CANNOT be dismissed summarily by just a remark..OH..we have known these for a long time..now lets move ON....the fact is we cannot move ON..with these stones around our necks...and GURU JI must be READ with LOVE and DEVOTION to seek His Help...His THAPEE..pat on our Back to FIGHT these.....WE LOVE HIM..He LOVES US BACK. simple as that.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 14, 2011)

TEJINDERSINGHDELHI,
WAHiGURU Ji KA KHALSA
WAHiGURU JI Ki FATEH,
I thank you for considering me for the service in the interest of all Sikhs and the Panth.
I am always prepared to do any service for my GURU SGGS .Sometimes back Aman Singh Ji had similar suggestion.You can decide in the ModusOperandi to go for this.
You will appreciate the fact that only those who are actually interested in knowing about the way of grammatical understanding should be involved.AS Grammatical interpretations are going to be very different than what we understand till datewe should always have positive way of giving a thought.We may disagree on certain views but there should be justification for that too.
Since we are living in an era of hightech which our previous generations did not have.Outright rejection of any thought will not be a solution unless proved wrong.
Once againthanking you,
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 14, 2011)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Please forgive me,  Tejinder Singh Delhi ji. Please forgive me, Ambarsaria ji.  Please indulge me, moderators.  I cannot be silent any longer.  It's spelled g-r-a-m-m-a-r, grammar.  I know this isn't the point, but surely, spelling is as important as grammar? :noticekudi:



Dear Mai Harinder Kaur ji,

May I ask what you are asking me to forgive you for as you say above. 

         "Please forgive me, Ambarsaria ji."

I am happy, if I do make mistakes that those are flagged.  In my mind only people who care, care to flag faults or areas of improvements.  Others take easy way out and say nothing and let you go on with your mistakes or are just shy.

My suggestion and I shout,
 cheerleader Please flag errors and help people improve cheerleader

cheerleaderMy father used to say, Life is a never ending quest for knowledge, you should never stop learning cheerleader

Just for note, I have decided to shallow read Professor Sahib Singh ji's "Guru Granth Darpan" for the first go.  I am taking snippets out of it and I will share these in the future if considered appropriate.  I will also try my hand on practice translation of these snippets for Cyber Sangat here to critique.  I downloaded it from the following if of interest,

http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi/GuruGranth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh.zip
http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi/GuruGranth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh.pdf

The website is,

http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi/index.htm

Take care and thanks for your contributions.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jan 15, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

If you do this 





> Just for note, I have decided to shallow read Professor Sahib Singh ji's "Guru Granth Darpan" for the first go. I am taking snippets out of it and I will share these in the future if considered appropriate. I will also try my hand on practice translation of these snippets for Cyber Sangat here to critique. I downloaded it from the following if of interest,
> 
> http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi...ib Singh.zip
> http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi...ib Singh.pdf



you will be my cyber-hero!  cheerleader cheerleader cheerleader


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 15, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Divine Greetings,
I am really delighted from the message of your post.I fully appreciate your remark when you say Knowledge should not be stopped.
I assure you I shall always stand for sharing the knowledge.That is the we should go ahead.
With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 15, 2011)

READING AND MEDITATION.

Gurbaani is evergraceful.Even simply bowing before SGGS is just enough for enjoying the grace of Gurbaani.This is a very unique effect of Gurbaani.
At the same time Gurbaani motivates us to acquire the knowledge about the word GURU/GUR .so that we always remain in touch with our CREATOR to be our guide for our journey of life.
If any one thinks that there are as many understandings of Gurbaani as Sikhs,this can be his or her own view.But definitely this can not be a GURMATi View.
Gurbaani is for us for the ellimination of Confusions.On the contrary different understanding is going to create more confusions.So we have to understand whether we would live with Gurmati view of Gurbaani or someothers.
So Gurbaani knowledge is important from the above point of view.For knowing the significance of Knowlrdge Gurbaani adocates we can refer to the following Shabads from SGGS Ji

AB MAIN KOUNu UPAAO KARAun....pp685 DhanasariM9

THAKE NAIN SRAWAN SUNi THAAKE...pp793Suhi Kabir JeoLALIT

Therefore it is obvious that Gurbaani knowledge is very very specific and absolute clear in concept.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Balwinder singh (Jan 17, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa , Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

Respected sadh sangat Ji, I am not much learned w.r. t gurbani as it is oceanic in dimension but I know and daily feel that by listening to Japuji Sahib , I go to samadhi very soon.My whole journey rests on listening gurbani on IPOD. Believe me , work of Japuji Sahib Ji is felt considerably when one is in Samadhi.By repetedly listening , nadis gets cleared and kundalini very soon ascends thereby establishishing one in samadhi.

So , Khalsa ji , listen reapetedly as much as one can so that dasam duar may open soon.Yes , it is my statement and may not suit everybody.For more information you can contact me on my mobile. PERSONAL DETAILS REMOVED AS IT IS NOT SAFE INTERNET PRACTICE. PLEASE USE SPN PRIVATE MESSAGING SERVICE. THANKS.

Bani is very very versatile and works on every realm .Illusion causing statements should be avoided, it is my humble request.No reading is shallow provided it is in light of intense love of guru sahib.Even if we do not understand every word , it works.Yes, learning more and more is always required.Merely learning gives nothing, is also true.Only intense love of Guru will  make us liberated.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 17, 2011)

BALWINDER SINGH JI,
WAHiGURU Ji Ka KHALSA,
WAHiGURU JI Ki FATAH,

Your views are really appreciable with respect to LISTENING to Gurbaani.LISTENING to Gurbaani is even more important.Infact reading and listening...Singing or Listening  should take place simultaneously.
I also feel agreeing that STATEMENTS CAUSING ILLUSION SHOULD BE AVOIDED.For this it would be helpful for all to know as to what should be the criteria of deciding any statement to be illusive so that the same can be condemned 
I shall ba thankful if you can provide this.

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 17, 2011)

sorry to go off topic, but which (and where) gurdwara is this in the picture of the first post?


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## spnadmin (Jan 17, 2011)

CaramelChocolate said:


> sorry to go off topic, but which (and where) gurdwara is this in the picture of the first post?



CaramelChocolate ji

Gurfateh! No problem. This image originated in the files of of Sikhiwiki. I picked it up from Google Images under search term "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji." After tracing the file history, it turns out to be an image of a granthi reading on the first floor of Sri Harimandir Sahib.

_Just as an aside. I did not search under "Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji" but there is an auto-editor application changing the search term that in fact I did use. Try using S G G S without the spaces.  IMHO, and along the lines of this discussion, it raises the question of what "piety." is and what it is not. _


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## Caspian (Feb 10, 2011)

Currently, I'm taking a class on conciousness. Alot of it has to do with meditation. Obviously, if one is reading to understand then ofcourse, comprehension helps . But if one is reading for a "meditative" reasons so to say. Then there is nothing withing the words or sounds that can really "add" to the experience. You can meditate effectively while speaking gibberish (indeed, many buddhist and hindu schools of meditation do not rely on hymns or anything of "meaning"—they just utter gibberish and as are as effective as meditators that are uttering meaningful words).


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

Shallow reading is like crawling before learning how to walk and run marathons and it is must and  a very important step.

Now, the question arises that shall we spend all our lives crawling?

If the answer to the above is yes, then wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the name Sikh?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 10, 2011)

Caspian said:


> Currently, I'm taking a class on conciousness. Alot of it has to do with meditation. Obviously, if one is reading to understand then ofcourse, comprehension helps . But if one is reading for a "meditative" reasons so to say. Then there is nothing withing the words or sounds that can really "add" to the experience. You can meditate effectively while speaking gibberish (indeed, many buddhist and hindu schools of meditation do not rely on hymns or anything of "meaning"—they just utter gibberish and as are as effective as meditators that are uttering meaningful words).


Anything is possible.  By shouting and through noise you basically are doing the following,


Shutting down senses


Shutting down your ears
Shutting down your speech engine with repetition
Closing your eyes you essentially shut down your vision
If you are clapping, etc., or jumping or swaying you are shutting down your sensory feelings of touch
Smell is generally shut down once you are in stable environment with whatever the smell is around if no changes are taking place during the exercise

Now you are in La La land and you can call it meditation or give it other names
It is just a feeling what happens when all senses are shut down and brain is left alone, more or less

There of course may be benefits from all this but I don't have any personal experiences to share but perhaps it is no different than the following videos :interestedmunda:,
YouTube        - My Grey Parrot saying ALLAH HO ALLAH HO

YouTube        - one more Lion Says Allah.Cooool!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Caspian (Feb 10, 2011)

> Now, the question arises that shall we spend all our lives crawling?
> 
> If the answer to the above is yes, then wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the name Sikh?


Even amongst the worshippers who become particularily obsessed with the words/meaningins/etc and memorizing all the hymns. A good lot of them end up regurgitating them in such rapid fire pace that it is akin to gibberish. In the two most general forms of meditation, the point is to either focus ur attention on a specific object, thing, sensation, idea, etc (Focuses attention meditation) or to openly monitor your conciousness as it flows from moment to moment (open monitoring meditation) hymns can help people get into these kinds of states—regardless of what they mean. But meditation is inherently different from comprehension. So i'm not saying that the words arent important at all, they are important for comprehension. Just not for meditation. 

Besides—alot of this is just over active placebo effect. If you believe its going to work, itll work wonders for yeah 

On a personal level. I had the entire Jap Ji Sahib memorized as a kid (despite the fact I didnt understand what I was sayin) I can defintly say that at times, it was a comforting/positive experience just saying the words out in successive order. But the effect left as I grew more skeptical. (Yes, theres even a negative placebo effect—If you believe its not going to work [even with medicine proven to work] the effects lessen and may not work for you).


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## anakhiput (Feb 10, 2011)

sorry to make a little comment but do feel first one has to be capable enough to read gurbani in it's pure sense to be able to understand it. once u can do that waheguru will guide u


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## anakhiput (Feb 10, 2011)

waheguru is the utmost & purest light out there in this world that can guide u


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 10, 2011)

Just a short comment _apropos _of nothing.  Deep or shallow understanding of Gurbani, *any *understanding of Gurbani is good.  What is not good is when those with a shallow understanding think they have a deep understanding and teach that to others as "the Truth."
animatedkhanda1


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## anakhiput (Feb 10, 2011)

very rightly put as there is so much to learn and one can spend whole life doing that


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 19, 2011)

CRAWLING..is  a part of the learning process...then we learn to walk..then we learn to RUN..then sprint..then have stamina for Marathon Runs...etc etc...

Just as a kindergarten student is also a studnent similar to one in the PHD class doing his PHD thesis...BOTH are "STUDENTS"....

Simialrly a SIKH is  a Life long learner..a SIKH for LIFE...BUT that doesnt mean he has to stay in "kindergarten" to qualify as a studnet/sikh...and when he goes to primary school..secondary school etc..he "loses" the sikh title ??

SO just as a babay will not be crawling forever..a Sikh will not be shallow reading all his life..He will PROGRESS daily..and still remain a SIKH.


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## Gursikh Singh (Feb 19, 2011)

There's no value in the repetition of empty words.


"Nanak says, through empty words, one is ruined."

"Religion lies not in empty words. He who regards all men as equal is religious"


"Easy is it to utter and cause to utter. But difficult is it to accept Thy Will." (Guru Arjan Dev, pg. 51)


Actions are louder than words.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 28, 2016)

Let us consider a quote from Gurbaani as

"SIKHI SIKHIYAA GUR SABAD VICHAAR" ..........ASA DI VAAR

For a Gursikh the action is also dictated.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Original (Jun 29, 2016)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Let us consider a quote from Gurbaani as
> 
> "SIKHI SIKHIYAA GUR SABAD VICHAAR" ..........ASA DI VAAR
> 
> ...


Dear Mr Bagga - Good morning !

I'm a fan of yours and it's nice to hear from you after some considerable lapse of time. Hope you will stay and enlighten us with your wonderful wisdom.

Regarding the quote above, I've copied n paste for your perusal the entire shabd below, particular attention is drawn to the text in bold. 

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਵਾਇਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਨਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ॥ ਪੈਰ ਹਲਾਇਨਿ ਫੇਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਸਿਰ ॥ ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਰਾਵਾ ਝਾਟੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਵੇਖੈ ਲੋਕੁ ਹਸੈ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਟੀਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾੜਹਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਗੋਪੀਆ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ॥ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੁ ॥ ਸੇਵਕ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਚੜਾਉ ॥ ਭਿੰਨੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ *ਸਿਖੀ ਸਿਖਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ* ॥ ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਲਘਾਏ ਪਾਰਿ ॥ ਕੋਲੂ ਚਰਖਾ ਚਕੀ ਚਕੁ ॥ ਥਲ ਵਾਰੋਲੇ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੰਤੁ ॥ ਲਾਟੂ ਮਾਧਾਣੀਆ ਅਨਗਾਹ ॥ ਪੰਖੀ ਭਉਦੀਆ ਲੈਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਹ ॥ ਸੂਐ ਚਾੜਿ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ਜੰਤ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਉਦਿਆ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ ਬੰਧਨ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਨਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ ਉਡਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਸਿਧ ਨ ਹੋਹਿ ॥ ਨਚਣੁ ਕੁਦਣੁ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਿ ਭਉ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਉ ॥੨॥ SGGSJ 465

If that'd be the same shabd to which you've made reference to then I read it as, "*SIKHI SIKHIYAA GUR VICHAAR" *? And, I translate it thus, "Sikhism is the study of Guru's teachings", meaning, guru's teachings is a life philosophy that liberates the spirit through self-discipline based on the concept of nam.

Much obliged !


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## swarn bains (Jun 29, 2016)

very nice. i made a mistake telling you not to comment. sorry for that so do give your comments and add a bit more from your side on gurbani vichar


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## Kully (Jul 4, 2016)

From my own personal perspective, When I learned how to do paath, the immediate concentration was on the words and pronunciation. Here there would be no meditative value. After i got more fluent with it, after a time of several months, i started to be able to recite parts without looking at the gutka. Here is where the meditative value started. Then I progressed onto learning arth and reading the paath conscientiously. 

Once I got to this stage, I found that doing paath and naam simran had more value. But the key is that you have to start somewhere.


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## Sikhilove (Aug 17, 2017)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> CRAWLING..is  a part of the learning process...then we learn to walk..then we learn to RUN..then sprint..then have stamina for Marathon Runs...etc etc...
> 
> Just as a kindergarten student is also a studnent similar to one in the PHD class doing his PHD thesis...BOTH are "STUDENTS"....
> 
> ...



There is no point in reciting Gurbani if you don't know what it means. Read the English translation if you can't understand it, and apply the gyan to your life. 

Our Gurus teach us what they know and Live but its up to us to accept and apply the gyan to our lives.


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