# Chautha Pad: A Spiritual Life



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

Gyaniji, Guru Fateh !! i have earleir said that you are a master to twist the words and this is reference to that. Nothing new this time. As a joke it's o.k. 
Your joke remind of one similar incident of court where two lawyers were discussing. In the mean time, by provocation of the opponent lawyer said that he had not seen a fool like him. Order-Order, the judge replied," don't forget that he was still present there.
Who was the biggest fool-The lawyer or the judge by the circumstances?
Regards,
Ajmer singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Gyani ji, Guru fateh !!
 Thanks for encouraging me to start a new thread naming 'CHAUTHA PAD'. it s to feed the psychic need of the soul.I and almost everybody is indulged in the life of 'TEEN PAD', and pass our whole life in satisfyinf our needs within.
There are a few person like me who wish to achieve this life of Chautha pad but is it possible to achieve while passing our life in GRAHSTHI or family. We have certain duties imposed socially to carry on to look after the elders and take care of the family. Gurbaani denies to take care of family( as father,mother,son daughter etc. no one belongs to us and similarly we are not for them)but on the contrary it enforces to practice meditation while being in family. How is it possible? Please share your views.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Guru fateh !!
> Thanks for encouraging me to start a new thread naming 'CHAUTHA PAD'. it s to feed the psychic need of the soul.I and almost everybody is indulged in the life of 'TEEN PAD', and pass our whole life in satisfyinf our needs within.
> *There are a few person like me who wish to achieve this life of Chautha pad but is it possible to achieve while passing our life in GRAHSTHI or family. We have certain duties imposed socially to carry on to look after the elders and take care of the family. Gurbaani denies to take care of family( as father,mother,son daughter etc. no one belongs to us and similarly we are not for them)but on the contrary it enforces to practice meditation while being in family. How is it possible?* Please share your views.
> Regards.
> ...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Chauttah Pad*



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyaniji, Guru Fateh !! i have earleir said that you are a master to twist the words and this is reference to that. Nothing new this time. As a joke it's o.k.
> Your joke remind of one similar incident of court where two lawyers were discussing. In the mean time, by provocation of the opponent lawyer said that he had not seen a fool like him. Order-Order, the judge replied," don't forget that he was still present there.
> Who was the biggest fool-The lawyer or the judge by the circumstances?
> Regards,
> Ajmer singh Randhawa.



Ajmer singh ji,
Gurfateh Ji.

Ha ha..you are quite  a joker ajmer singh ji..congrats. imho..the Bigger fool is known when he opens his mouth ( or in this case types on his keyboard..and HITS..SUMBMIT...then its KNOWN worldwide !!)..he he he no offense meant..
BUT this Subject is not a laughing matter. Its serious and it needs serious study to enable the TRUTH to emerge....as it will do eventually. Lets begin the ball rolling on the chautha padd thread..i have submitted ( bigger fool or not..god knows)

Keep in Chardeekalla ji.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Gyaniji, Guru Fateh !!
 Thanks for defining but at least you would have understood that a devotee like me if asking this question, must be aware of Sid-goashth and other Baanis. This has not satisfied me , when i practice Naam japp-Waheguru gurumantra, that can take me to meditation if continue(though i can't) but searching the answer what is 'CHAUTHA PAD' or the fourth stage and than achieve it should be the goal of we devotees.
I belong to Dehra Dun and has seen many Saints in Samadhi (meditation). You will wonder I was present when Subhash Chandra Bose died as a Sanyasi in samadhi at Dehra Dun for which i have challenged Govt. of India to prove me wrong.I have opened a website also especially on this issue.
I too want to achieve that stage which no one preeche so i asked you if as per gurmat you or any body else from forum  may shed some light.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Aad ji, Guru Fateh !!
You are requested to start this topic as new thread (CHAUTHA PAD) and shift all the mails in that thread. 
Thanks.
Ajmer Singh randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyaniji, Guru Fateh !!
> Thanks for defining but at least you would have understood that a devotee like me if asking this question, must be aware of Sid-goashth and other Baanis. This has not satisfied me , when i practice Naam japp-Waheguru gurumantra, that can take me to meditation if continue(though i can't) but searching the answer what is 'CHAUTHA PAD' or the fourth stage and than achieve it should be the goal of we devotees.
> I belong to Dehra Dun and has seen many Saints in Samadhi (meditation). You will wonder I was present when Subhash Chandra Bose died as a Sanyasi in samadhi at Dehra Dun for which i have challenged Govt. of India to prove me wrong.I have opened a website also especially on this issue.
> I too want to achieve that stage which no one preeche so i asked you if as per gurmat you or any body else from forum  may shed some light.
> ...



Gurur Piayario Jio,
Ajmer singh ji.

So sorry to disappoint...I am no snayasi....and have never been in samadhee.

For me "Naam japp" is like Guru nanak ji did...PLOUGH the flelds so well that we get maximum YIELD...be the Best farmer..plant the best feed grass for the Cows..so that they give the best milk...and so on...treat the animals like humans..love them..so they give you the best effort..ploughing..milk production etc.
Naam is QUALITIES OF WAHEGURU..TRUTH..HUMILITY..LOVE.. Naam japping means IMBIBING those QUALITIES..so that we become DEVTAS..manas into deos...not Manas jaat kartoot passu ki....when we look into the MIRROR..IF we see "Waheguru"...or we see "dog..khota..hathi..pig...bandar.." then we are one of the two above...
THATS as far as my experiences go. I always try and see GURU JI...staring abck at me in the mirrot when i tie my dastaar every morning....and hope i see the same Guru Ji when i recite sohila at night.

I hope any others will be of help to your quest...


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Gyaani ji, , You are really very intelligent. I think the curiosity and the thirst, the inner thirst which could not be quenched has compelled me to write in this forum but i wonder nobody else sharing his views. The method to meditate is not known to me otherwise i practice to chant thy name, the Gurmantar Waheguru and recite Gurbaani or sahaj paath always continue, one after the other. But even then i thirst of soul is there. Ik never ending Trishna... . What to do next ... a curiosity?
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Ajmer singh ji

THose who do not believe that a sikh has to take Gurmantra and call naam simran as a useless excericse may not be believing in Chautha pad also. Thye have different meanings for naam simran.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Veer Inder Singh ji, Welcome and Guru Fateh !!
I was anxiously waiting for you to join this thread again. Thanks.Please share your valuable ideas also and kindly lead to quench the thirst of soul. Gyaniji is a wise person and he has opened his heart that he is a Sikh first of all but as per the ref. of Sid Goashth, "Ros naa keeje Uttar dijey" 
Let us join together and without any provocation, try to answer the question and share the dais peacefully.
Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Ajmer singh ji

In my limited under standing our personality consists of three bodies namely gross body, subtle and casual body or sathul, shuksham and karan.These three bodies experience life in waking state, dreaming state and deep sleep state.So we experience rea;ity that is same differently in three stages.These are stages of maya. Chautha pad is that when by naam simran we achieve sahaj.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Veer Inder ji,
 Please -please explain it . I think i may be near to clue. Gurbani states 
Tajo gun
Sato gun 
Rajo gun 
and one who does not indulge in these, achieves Chautha pad. My question is how can i avoid these three stages to achieve the fourth?
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 16, 2009)

*Chauttah Pad*

*This thread consists of conversations redirected from the thread Kala Afghana - Discussion Redux. Thanks, aad0002
*


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## spnadmin (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*




Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> GURU PIAYARIO JIOS
> AJMER SINGH JI,
> GURFATEH.
> 
> ...




To my ears and eyes, this is poetry. More please.....(insert begging bowl icon)


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## Inder singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Inder ji,
> Please -please explain it . I think i may be near to clue. Gurbani states
> Tajo gun
> Sato gun
> ...



Ajmer singh ji

By becoming a Gurmukh one can get rid of these stages of maya.Gurbani says
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.
 13 Sriraag Guru Amar Das  ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ 
kar kirapaa maelaaeian har naam vasiaa man aae ||
Granting His Grace, God unites us with Himself. The Name of the Lord comes to abide within the mind.
 13 Sriraag Guru Amar Das  ਪੋਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੇਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ 
pothai jin kai punn hai thin sathasangath maelaae ||1||
Those who have the treasure of goodness join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||1||
 14 Sriraag Guru Amar Das  ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
bhaaee rae guramath saach rehaao ||
O Siblings of Destiny, follow the Guru's Teachings and dwell in truth.ang 30 SGGS JI


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Veerjio, 
i follow these but still i wonder that three gun Maya moh ... phir chautha pad. Question is still unanswered as how to come out of three Gun/pad.
Once i did japp saunde-jaagde and reached the stage where i could not sleep because  due to continuous Japp didn't allow me. my eves were sore and with great difficulty i could manage to attain my early life.
No doubt i enjoy the true congregation in sikhism where thy true name is recited....Satsangat kaisi jaaniye Jithe eko naam vakhaaniye!! and
"Paras bhent lanchan dhat hoyi Sat Sangat ki wadiaai !!"
That is also true "Sat sangat mahein Harju basahen..."
 Speaking truth is possible but living a truthful life is not possible in this materialistic world of Maya-Moah. Should i not care my family and get away from my responsibilities in search of peace but that is also prohibited as Sanyas is not recommended but condemned.
So how to achieve chautha pad?
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa


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## Inder singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Ajmer singh ji

I hope you have taken gurmantra from panj piaras and follow sikh rehat. I learned that for a sikh this is most important to realize state of bliss.

I read that living truthful life is also very essetial for raeching this stage. Akal purakh helps His devotees and comes to their aid when they are need.I am fortunate to know a few who have attained this state.

As you say that you had reached a state where ajapa jaap had started. I learned that one need continuity in his efforts and do not give up.


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## Inder singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Ajmer singh ji

After sometime and with guru's grace jap becomes ajapa jaap. Ajapa jaap is that which goes on without effort and you do not have to be awake to do that.

ajapa jaap na visrae
aad jugad samaye

The mind that does  not forget the Chant which is chanted without chanting
 becomes immersed  in Akal purakh.

ang 1291


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Gyaniji.
I was blessed and i remember the continue japp in mind pressurised so heavily on my mind that ultimately i had to come out of it. (May be i unlucky) but here truthfully expressing myself. I have told you that my eyes got sore and while sleeping (Not slept but tandla -jaago-mitti) but i could not sleep, Waheguru-Waheguru  chantingwas there, nothing else. This is very difficult to attain that stage but i really reached to that.
It is distracting me,Yes you are right, mind was chanting without chanting an this was the reason of eyes sore and in family life, there were certain other duties to perform. Ultimately i came out but with great difficulty. Was that the chautha pad or some stage nearby.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Ajmer singh ji

I have gathered that there are three stages of naam jap.Most probably you were at second stage. 

The following is the experience of a gursikh who ahs gone throught these stages. This will help you.

Bandginama, by Raghbir Singh Bir | Scribd


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## satnamr46 (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Dear Friends,We are lucky to be born Sikhs,for the Guru has shown us how to be truly liberated.Liberation....Chautha  Pad does not ensue from a life given to austerities,renunciation and myriads of meaningless rituals.Gurmat teaches us that this world is real.So live  in accordance with the  Guru,s Hukam:ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥ 
नानक सतिगुरि भेटिऐ पूरी होवै जुगति ॥ 
Nānak saṯgur bẖeti▫ai pūrī hovai jugaṯ. 
O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way. 

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥੨॥ 
हसंदिआ खेलंदिआ पैनंदिआ खावंदिआ विचे होवै मुकति ॥२॥ 
Hasanḏi▫ā kẖelanḏi▫ā painanḏi▫ā kẖāvanḏi▫ā vicẖe hovai mukaṯ. ||2|| 
While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2|| 


And also:

ਵਿਚਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥ 
विचि दुनीआ सेव कमाईऐ ॥ 
vicẖ ḏunī▫ā sev kamā▫ī▫ai. 
In the midst of this world, do seva, 

ਤਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
ता दरगह बैसणु पाईऐ ॥ 
Ŧā ḏargėh baisaṇ pā▫ī▫ai. 
and you shall be given a place of honor in the Court of the Lord. 

The Guru has shown us THE WAY but if escapism,austerities and  meaningless  rituals seem so endearing,then we have to make concerted efforts to understand the Guru,s Word.Gurbani says...Raj na chahun, mukat na chahun, man preet charan kamlaare. What is this preet charan? It is to have complete faith in Dhan Sri Guru  Granth Sahib  and follow its teachings religiously.It is to make constant efforts to imbibe all those attributes ascribed to Akal Purakh andto do it while seeking the Grace of God.Simple and straightforward. Gurmat Gaadi Rah                                                                HumblySatnam Singh Randhawa


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



satnamr46 said:


> Dear Friends,We are lucky to be born Sikhs,for the Guru has shown us how to be truly liberated.Liberation....Chautha  Pad does not ensue from a life given to austerities,renunciation and myriads of meaningless rituals.Gurmat teaches us that this world is real.So live  in accordance with the  Guru,s Hukam:ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥
> नानक सतिगुरि भेटिऐ पूरी होवै जुगति ॥
> Nānak saṯgur bẖeti▫ai pūrī hovai jugaṯ.
> O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way.
> ...



YES JIO..DEFINITELY...the Sarab kala Sampooran Guru..the SGGS shows the HIGHWAY..but we being so "adventurous little he-men..want to go OFF the Highway into the wilderness...macho style....to "find" an alternative way....sadly we are forgetful that this Manukha janam is EK BAAR..its VERY SHORT..to play around hiking in the woods..while the Super Highway awaits to whisk us away to Waheguru Ji in super quick time...one can take a horse to water..but cannot make it DRINK....the Gurus sahibs spent over 250 years of human life..10 jamas...to BRING US TO WATER..but they too cannot make us DRINK the AMRIT..unless we voluntarily drink it.......
Thnak You Satnam Singh RANDHAWA JI..for reiterating the valuable lesson in SGGS...1429 pages for a Successful LIFE..


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## C.B.Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*

Giani ji, I appriciate your view of point except for one sentance where you said that kamal grows in kitcher or something similar, that means still you feel the presence of women in the life is like kitcher.
A sister, A daughter and the mother and even the wife deserves the appriciation and status like in our Gurbani. Women is considered "janani" .


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## Astroboy (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> I think the curiosity and the thirst, the inner thirst which could not be quenched has compelled me to write in this forum but i wonder nobody else sharing his views. The method to meditate is not known to me otherwise i practice to chant thy name, the Gurmantar Waheguru and recite Gurbaani or sahaj paath always continue, one after the other. But even then i thirst of soul is there. Ik never ending Trishna... . What to do next ... a curiosity?
> 
> Regards.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



Ajmer Singh ji, so long as you do anything by thinking that you are separate from your Creator, you continue to suffer the birha of separation.


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux*



C.B.Singh said:


> Giani ji, I appriciate your view of point except for one sentance where you said that kamal grows in kitcher or something similar, that means still you feel the presence of women in the life is like kitcher.
> A sister, A daughter and the mother and even the wife deserves the appriciation and status like in our Gurbani. Women is considered "janani" .



C.B.Singh ji

I am trying to follow the thread. Please point out to me where you see Gyani ji say the "kamal grows in the kitcher" -- I search the thread and don't see it. In Post 3 he said _"Woman is the Biggest Maya..way to HELL..she will stop and destroy any man's naam japp/naam kamaii etc etc." _But he is talking about kamaii not kamal or kitcher (?), and actually is disagreeing with people who think that way. You can see I am confused. Thank you if you can explain where it is, which post... _kamal in kitcher._


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## Astroboy (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

YouTube - Sehaj Paath Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

This is a beautiful recitation and the voice/cadence alone could put me in sehaj. Thanks NamJap!


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> नानक सतिगुरि भेटिऐ पूरी होवै जुगति ॥
> Nānak saṯgur bẖeti▫ai pūrī hovai jugaṯ.
> O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way.
> 
> ...



The next slok is
sloku mÚ 5 ] (522-14)
salok mehlaa 5.
Shalok, Fifth Mehl:
audmu kryidAw jIau qUM kmwvidAw suK BuMcu ] (522-15, gUjrI, mÚ 5)
udam karaydi-aa jee-o tooN kamaavdi-aa sukh bhunch.
Make the effort, and you shall live; practicing it, you shall enjoy peace.
iDAwieidAw qUM pRBU imlu nwnk auqrI icMq ]1] (522-15, gUjrI, mÚ 5)
Dhi-aa-idi-aa tooN parabhoo mil naanak utree chint. ||1||
Meditating, you shall meet God, O Nanak, and your anxiety shall vanish. ||1|

ang 522 SGGS

Message of our Gurus nowhere forbids us not to meditate. In fact whole essence of message of SGGS ji is naam jap.

nwnk kY Gir kyvl nwmu ]4]4] (1136-16, BYrau, mÚ 5)
naanak kai ghar kayval naam. ||4||4||


Nanak's home is filled with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||4||4||


A sikh does not leave his household to achieve chautha pad. He achieves this while leading a householder's life. 



Guru ji says
dsvY duAwir pRgtu hoie AwieAw ] (1069-11, mwrU, mÚ 4)
dasvai du-aar pargat ho-ay aa-i-aa.
My Tenth Gate has been opened and revealed.
qh Anhd sbd vjih Duin bwxI shjy shij smweI hy ]6] (1069-12, mwrU, mÚ 4)
tah anhad sabad vajeh Dhun banee sehjay sahj samaa-ee hay. ||6||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates and resounds there, with the melody of the Guru's Bani; one is easily, intuitively absorbed in the Lord. ||6||


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> नानक सतिगुरि भेटिऐ पूरी होवै जुगति ॥
> Nānak saṯgur bẖeti▫ai pūrī hovai jugaṯ.
> O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way.
> 
> ...


The next slok is
sloku mÚ 5 ] (522-14)
salok mehlaa 5.
Shalok, Fifth Mehl:
audmu kryidAw jIau qUM kmwvidAw suK BuMcu ] (522-15, gUjrI, mÚ 5)
udam karaydi-aa jee-o tooN kamaavdi-aa sukh bhunch.
Make the effort, and you shall live; practicing it, you shall enjoy peace.
iDAwieidAw qUM pRBU imlu nwnk auqrI icMq ]1] (522-15, gUjrI, mÚ 5)
Dhi-aa-idi-aa tooN parabhoo mil naanak utree chint. ||1||
Meditating, you shall meet God, O Nanak, and your anxiety shall vanish. ||1|

ang 522 SGGS

Message of our Gurus nowhere forbids us not to meditate. In fact whole essence of message of SGGS ji is naam jap.

nwnk kY Gir kyvl nwmu ]4]4] (1136-16, BYrau, mÚ 5)
naanak kai ghar kayval naam. ||4||4||


Nanak's home is filled with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||4||4||


A sikh does not leave his household to achieve chautha pad. He achieves this while leading a householder's life. 



Guru ji says
dsvY duAwir pRgtu hoie AwieAw ] (1069-11, mwrU, mÚ 4)
dasvai du-aar pargat ho-ay aa-i-aa.
My Tenth Gate has been opened and revealed.
qh Anhd sbd vjih Duin bwxI shjy shij smweI hy ]6] (1069-12, mwrU, mÚ 4)
tah anhad sabad vajeh Dhun banee sehjay sahj samaa-ee hay. ||6||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates and resounds there, with the melody of the Guru's Bani; one is easily, intuitively absorbed in the Lord. ||6||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Guru Piayre Jios,
AAD ji and CB Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

IN Indian spiritual trdaition the Kamal is the LOTUS FLOWER that is so beautiful,it floats above the dirty POND it grows in. IN metaphor..the Dirty POND is MAYA...the WORLD of Illuison that Guru Ji also calls as World of smoke/fog..and the Kamal Lotus..epitome of sheer beauty FLOATS ABOVE all this.
You would ahve noticed that the LOTUS is  avery revered flower..most of the Domes especilaly in Buddhist architecture and Hindu Mandirs the LOTUS is prominently displayed....the Domes rest with lotus petals pointing outward.

1. Status of WOMAN in Hindu.Buddhist, Islamic, Biblical traditions is very low. She is INFERIOR to Man. In some writigns she is considered an impedement to Mans spiritual development. MY friend Gurbachan Singh Sidhu a retired Teacher in the UK has written an excellent book on Woman in Sikhi  ( He has written a Trilogy actually - the other two books are Sikhi and Islam a compariosn, Sikhi and Christianity - a comparison, and Sikhi and Science ..ALL worth a good read ) and in it he details how badly woman is treated by virtually all religions, IN one of the Hindu texts it is said that a single look at a woman or by her is enough to send a man to hell by destroying his religious merits. IN other texts of various religions woman is said to be base, low iq, temptress, vily, deceitful, etc etc. MAYA is also DEPICTED as a Beautiful WOMAN who will disrupt a Sage's or Rishis Tapisyaa, Havans, Religious Merit with her viles and trickery. THUS Hindu sages shunned Marriage and a householders life and went off into Caves deep in the Himalayas, or Jungles in order to escape Woman and seek spiritual peace far from inhabitation. Guur Ji saw through this hypocracy...Those who SHUN WOMAN..then GO TO MARRIED MENS HOUSES to BEG FOR FOOD ? Isnt that hypocracy ? isnt that FOOD cooked by woman unfit for aman of spiritual height ?? Isnt it hypocracy that Holy men..even DEVTAS like Shiv, Brahma, Vishnu etc LUST after beautiful women ( and then BLAME her as MAYA the Temptress !!)..and while "seeking" spirituality in far off caves and jungles..CARRY WOMEN IN THEIR MINDS !!


GURU NANAK JI SAHIB was apalled at this. He was the FIRST to raise His Voice - loudly and clearly IN Asa KI vaar about the status of Woman..SHE WHO GIVES BIRTH TO KINGS, SAGES, PROPHETS,GREAT MEN..HOW can she be bad..lowly..?? So kion manda kaheeyaeh jit jammeh Rajaan ?? Guru Ji goes on..
Man is Born of Woman, Man sucks her breast for food, Man marries her,IF she dies..He marries another, He spends his life with her.He depends on Her to Bring forth his progeny....How can we disregard her ??.

GURU JI then recommended an entirely OPPOSITE PATH for Gurmukhs to attain Spiritual Heights. Guru Ji says a Gurmukh STAYS in this World..He Faces "MAYA" bravely, He resists TEMPTATION..not by running away to hide in the jungle but by REMAINING BEHIND. He marries, raises a family and GAINS SPIRITUAL HEIGHT while living  a householders life. THAT is like the LOTUS FLOWER in the Dirty Pond..amidst all the so called temptations, allures, maya whatever..BUT still beautiful and floating.... rising above all this, His WIFE instead of being a hindrance..is of help..assists him on the Spiritual path. He learns to RECOGNISE and Value of the Women in his life..His wife, his daughter, his mother, His Grandmother, His sister..his bhabi, his massee, his bhua,,etc etc all have their own honourable place and status. THIS is the GURMATT PATH set forward by Guur nanak ji Sahib. A Paradigm SHIFT in terms of contemporary religious thought


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Dear Randhawa Ji,

It is very easy to write about fourth state/meditation/like subjects etc but to achieve it is a Herculean task. I have read quite a bit about meditation etc but I can’t even control my body what to talk about controlling the mind but any how here are my two cents on the subject;

*Fourth state/ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ*​ 
Bliss/poise/sahaj/ fourth state/ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ are synonymous terms IMHO defined as an exhilarating state of rapture, ecstasy of salvation, absolute happiness, spiritual joy, optimism and an absence of despair and union with the Akal Purkh. It should not be confused with sensual pleasure. You cannot have absolute happiness in a relative physical plane whether you are an atheist, agnostic or have faith in the existence of a Universal Self/God/what ever. Fourth State/ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ- as defined in Mahan Kosh -ਗਿਆਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਸਹਿਜ ਅਵਸਥਾ, ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਤੇ ਟਿਕਾਉ ਵਾਲੀ ਭਟਕਣ ਮੁਕਤ ਅਵਸਥਾ. Guru Nanak says that after one conquers the three qualities of Maya through the Guru one may enjoy the fourth state (ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ). Only rare Guru Willed persons can achieve that indescribable state known only to that person. 
Three Qualities of Maya;

There are three qualities of Maya as described in Vedas are interconnected with the three vital forces of the body. 

1. *Sativa* includes equilibrium, goodness, truth, compassion, stillness and peace.

2.* Rajas *includes thinking, planning and taking decisions. 

3.* Tamas* includes greed, anger, jealousy, and laziness. 

The Vedas do not know the extant of God and deal with the above described three qualities of Maya, Virtue and vice, but the fourth state/ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ is known through the perfect teacher/Guru, says Guru Nanak in Ragas Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 943-15, Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 839-9, and he further ponders in Raag Gauri;

ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤਰਣਾ ॥ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਮਰਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਕਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਥੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਆਨੰਦੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ॥੩॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ ਆਸਾ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਸੁ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ॥ ਦੀਨਾ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ॥੪॥੧੨॥ 

_Janam marai ṯarai guṇ hiṯkār. Cẖāre beḏ kathėh ākār. Ŧīn avasthā kahėh vakẖi▫ān. Ŧurī▫āvasthā saṯgur ṯe har jān. ||1|| Rām bẖagaṯ gur sevā ṯarṇā. Bāhuṛ janam na ho▫e hai marṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Cẖār paḏārath kahai sabẖ ko▫ī. Simriṯ sāsaṯ pandiṯ mukẖ so▫ī. Bin gur arath bīcẖār na pā▫i▫ā. Mukaṯ paḏārath bẖagaṯ har pā▫i▫ā. ||2|| Jā kai hirḏai vasi▫ā har so▫ī. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ parāpaṯ ho▫ī. Har kī bẖagaṯ mukaṯ ānanḏ. Gurmaṯ pā▫e parmānanḏ. ||3|| Jin pā▫i▫ā gur ḏekẖ ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. Āsā māhi nirās bujẖā▫i▫ā. Ḏīnā nāth sarab sukẖ▫ḏāṯa. Nānak har cẖarṇī man rāṯā. ||4||12||_

One who loves the three qualities is subject to birth and death. The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms. They describe and explain the three states of mind, but the fourth state, union with the Akal Purkh, is known only through the True Guru. ||1|| Through devotional worship of the Akal Purkh, and service to the Guru, one swims across. Then, one is not born again, and is not subject to death. ||1||Pause|| Everyone speaks of the four great blessings; the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Pundits speak of them as well. But without the Guru, they do not understand their true significance. The treasure of liberation is obtained through devotional worship of the God. ||2|| Those, within whose hearts the Akal Purkh dwells, become Guru willed; they receive the blessings of devotional worship. Through devotional worship of the God, liberation and bliss are obtained. Through the Guru's Teachings, supreme ecstasy is obtained. ||3|| One who meets the Guru, beholds Him, and inspires others to behold Him as well. In the midst of hope, the Guru teaches us to live above hope and desire. He is the Master of the meek, the Giver of peace to all. Nanak's mind is imbued with the Lotus Feet of the Akal Purkh. ||4||12||-----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 154-12

Guru Amardas in Siri Raag Ponders on it;

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ ਪੋਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੇਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਾਚੋ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਦੂ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥ ਜੇਹਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਏਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਮੂਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਾਉ ਲਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥

_Ŧarai guṇ mā¬i¬ā moh hai gurmukẖ cẖa¬uthā paḏ pā¬ė. Kar kirpā melā▫i▫an har nām vasi▫ā man ā▫e. Poṯai jin kai punn hai ṯin saṯsangaṯ melā▫e. ||1|| Bẖā▫ī re gurmaṯ sācẖ rahā▫o. Sācẖo sācẖ kamāvaṇā sācẖai sabaḏ milā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. Jinī nām pacẖẖāṇi▫ā ṯin vitahu bal jā▫o. Āp cẖẖod cẖarṇī lagā cẖalā ṯin kai bẖā▫e. Lāhā har har nām milai sėhje nām samā▫e. ||2|| Bin gur mahal na pā▫ī▫ai nām na parāpaṯ ho▫e. Aisā saṯgur loṛ lahu jiḏū pā▫ī▫ai sacẖ so▫e. Asur sangẖārai sukẖ vasai jo ṯis bẖāvai so ho▫e. ||3|| Jehā saṯgur kar jāṇi▫ā ṯeho jehā sukẖ ho▫e. Ėhu sahsā mūle nāhī bẖā▫o lā▫e jan ko▫e. Nānak ek joṯ ḏu▫e mūrṯī sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e. ||4||11||44||_

The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Guru willed attains the fourth state of higher consciousness. Granting Its Grace, God unites us with It self. The Name of the Akal Purkh comes to abide within the mind. Those who have the treasure of goodness join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||1|| O Siblings of Destiny, follow the Guru's Teachings and dwell in truth. Practice truth, and only truth, and merge in the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||Pause|| I am a sacrifice to those who recognize the Name of the Akal Purkh. Renouncing selfishness, I fall at their feet, and walk in harmony with Its Will. Earning the Profit of the Name of the Eternal God, I am intuitively absorbed in the Naam. ||2|| Without the Guru, the Mansion of the God's Presence is not found, and the Naam is not obtained. Seek and find such a True Guru, who shall lead you to the True Akal Purkh. Destroy your evil passions, and you shall dwell in peace. Whatever pleases the God comes to pass. ||3|| As one knows the True Guru, so is the peace obtained. There is no doubt at all about this, but those who love God are very rare. O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Sabd, union is attained. ||4||11||44||-----Guru Amardas, Sri Raag, AGGS, Page, 30-13

*Conclusion;*

In an attempt to reach the 4rth state one should purify and control the mind through the Grace of Akal Purkh, self-restraint, selfless service, charity, study of the Word with understanding and reflection, singing the praises of the Akal Purkh in the holy company, subjugation of sensual joys (Maya) and the development of virtues. These activities will lead to the celestial music playing in the mind with the exhilaration and absolute happiness called bliss, where virtue or vice does not affect says Guru Nanak in stanza 51 of Sidh Gost in Raag Ramkali;

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸੁੰਨੰ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁੰਨੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਸੁੰਨੰ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਸੁੰਨੈ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਪਾਪੁ ਨ ਪੁੰਨੰ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥ ਜੋ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ॥੫੧॥ 

_Anṯar sunaŉ bāhar sunaŉ ṯaribẖavaṇ sunn masuŉnaŉ. Cẖa▫uthe sunnai jo nar jāṇai ṯā ka▫o pāp na puŉnaŉ. Gẖat gẖat sunn kā jāṇai bẖe▫o. Āḏ purakẖ niranjan ḏe▫o. Jo jan nām niranjan rāṯā. Nānak so▫ī purakẖ biḏẖāṯā. ||51||_

The absolute Akal Purkh is deep within and outside us as well. It totally fills the three worlds. 
One who knows the Akal Purkh in the fourth state, is not subject to virtue or vice. One who knows the mystery of God the Absolute, who pervades each and every heart, knows the Primal Being, the Immaculate Divine Creator. That humble being who is imbued with the Immaculate Naam, O Nanak, is himself the Primal God, the Architect of Destiny. ||51||-----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali Sidh Gost, AGGS, Page, 943-15

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Veer grewal ji, My sincere thanks to you. I think i have got the answer though i invite more learned scholars like you to bless us with their esteem knowledge, so that all the curious readers may get the benefits of Gurbaani.I have copied it to achieve my goal.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> I have read quite a bit about meditation etc but I can’t even control my body what to talk about controlling the mind but any how here are my two cents on the subject;



Grewal ji

Are you telling us that meditation is barred by our gurus. If so please give us a precise quote from guru granth sahib ji.


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Gyani ji

Thank you for clarifying that the word is not "kitcher" but "chikkar." That was what confused me.


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## Astroboy (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

ਕਈ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਭਏ  ਬੈਰਾਗੀ  ॥ 
कई कोटि भए बैरागी ॥ 
Ka▫ī kot bẖa▫e bairāgī. 
Many millions become Bairaagees, who renounce the world. 

ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਤਿਨਿ  ਲਿਵ  ਲਾਗੀ  ॥ 
राम नाम संगि तिनि लिव लागी ॥ 
Rām nām sang ṯin liv lāgī. 
They have attached themselves to the Lord's Name. 

ਕਈ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕਉ  ਖੋਜੰਤੇ  ॥ 
कई कोटि प्रभ कउ खोजंते ॥ 
Ka▫ī kot parabẖ ka▫o kẖojanṯe. 
Many millions are searching for God. 

ਆਤਮ  ਮਹਿ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਲਹੰਤੇ  ॥ 
आतम महि पारब्रहमु लहंते ॥ 
Āṯam mėh pārbarahm lahanṯe. 
Within their souls, they find the Supreme Lord God. 

ਕਈ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਦਰਸਨ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਪਿਆਸ  ॥ 
कई कोटि दरसन प्रभ पिआस ॥ 
Ka▫ī kot ḏarsan parabẖ pi▫ās. 
Many millions thirst for the Blessing of God's Darshan. 

ਤਿਨ  ਕਉ  ਮਿਲਿਓ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਅਬਿਨਾਸ  ॥ 
तिन कउ मिलिओ प्रभु अबिनास ॥ 
Ŧin ka▫o mili▫o parabẖ abinās. 
They meet with God, the Eternal. 

ਕਈ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਮਾਗਹਿ  ਸਤਸੰਗੁ  ॥ 
कई कोटि मागहि सतसंगु ॥ 
Ka▫ī kot māgėh saṯsang. 
Many millions pray for the Society of the Saints. 

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਤਿਨ  ਲਾਗਾ  ਰੰਗੁ  ॥ 
पारब्रहम तिन लागा रंगु ॥ 
Pārbarahm ṯin lāgā rang. 
They are imbued with the Love of the Supreme Lord God. 

ਜਿਨ  ਕਉ  ਹੋਏ  ਆਪਿ  ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ  ॥ 
जिन कउ होए आपि सुप्रसंन ॥ 
Jin ka▫o ho▫e āp suparsan. 
Those with whom He Himself is pleased, 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਤੇ  ਜਨ  ਸਦਾ  ਧਨਿ  ਧੰਨਿ  ॥੬॥ 
नानक ते जन सदा धनि धंनि ॥६॥ 
Nānak ṯe jan saḏā ḏẖan ḏẖan. ||6|| 
O Nanak, are blessed, forever blessed. ||6|| 
*(Ang 276)*


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Grewal ji
> 
> Are you telling us that meditation is barred by our gurus. If so please give us a precise quote from guru granth sahib ji.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please describe what meditation means according to SGGS in lay man's terms and please quote full Shabads with the interpretation in your own words if you decide to copy and paste the literal translation from the internet.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Dear Inder Ji,

I did not say that but said that I am unable to meditate as I can not even keep my body in one stable position.

Virinder


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Dear Varinder singh ji

Many thanks for the clarification.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*








> Please describe what meditation means according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in lay man's terms



jo paraanee govind Dhi-aavai.
That mortal who meditates on the Lord of the Universe, piVAw AxpiVAw prm giq pwvY ]1] (197-18, gauVI, mÚ 5)
parhi-aa anparhi-aa param gat paavai. ||1||
whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme bliss

ang 197


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



aad0002 said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> Thank you for clarifying that the word is not "kitcher" but "chikkar." That was what confused me.



AAD JI, Gurfateh.

My sincere apologies as i left it unfinished.
The word for muck..is indeed KEECHARR as used in Gurbani
and it has been turned around in SLANG into CHIKARR.
Another example is ADHRAK but in slang its ADHKAR (Ginger)
Sorry Ji.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> jo paraanee govind Dhi-aavai.
> That mortal who meditates on the Lord of the Universe, piVAw AxpiVAw prm giq pwvY ]1] (197-18, gauVI, mÚ 5)
> parhi-aa anparhi-aa param gat paavai. ||1||
> whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme bliss
> ...


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

As mentioned in my post, please follow the forum rules and give the whole Shabad and as requested, give the meaning in your own words. How do you understand the Shabad even if you want to copy and paste the distorted literal translation from the internet?  Doing what you have done, the process becomes meaningless and shows the parroting habits.

Lastly and the most important thing is that the word "Dhi-aavai" means to create a thought process within through Gurbani, in this case. It has nothing to do with meditation as your claim from the incorrect literal translation. The same goes for "param gat paavai" as supreme bliss which is meaningless in the real life experience.

So, if you want to have the true interaction in understanding Gurbani then parroting misleading and distorted literal translation is not only disrespectful to our Gurus but it also leads us in the direction of Manmat.

I am waiting for the whole Shabad intepreted in English in your own words where you can also show us the difference between the incorrect literal translation and the real meaning of the Shabad as you understand it. 

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> Lastly and the most important thing is that the word "Dhi-aavai" means to create a thought process within through Gurbani, in this case. It has nothing to do with meditation as your claim from the incorrect literal translation. The same goes for "param gat paavai" as supreme bliss which is meaningless in the real life experience.



It is a pleasure to  read your views. Can you tell me how an uneducated person can read Gurbani. 

The shabad pankti saysparhi-aa anparhi-aa param gat paavai. ||1||
whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme bliss


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> It is a pleasure to read your views. Can you tell me how an uneducated person can read Gurbani.
> 
> The shabad pankti saysparhi-aa anparhi-aa param gat paavai. ||1||
> whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme bliss


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am anxiously waiting for the interpretation of the WHOLE Shabad in your own words. After you have done that, then only I will be able to share my views on it.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Astroboy (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

What is the modus operandi in reaching the Fourth Stage ?

In the newly formed religion in USA known as Eckankar, there are five stages to Soul consciousness. These correspond to the five realms and the five sheaths of a living being. I don't know from where they took all these teachings but in my opinion they are greatly flawed. They even have have 5 different sounds for each plane. For example, in the astral plane, the celestial sound is thunder and in the Soul plane it is the sound of a thousand violins. 

Their claims are backed by other schools of thought like Vedanta, Sufi, Radha Soami ,Edgar Cayce, Madam Bavlaski, Scientology, etc.


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## satnamr46 (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

soriT mhlw 5 Gru 2 AstpdIAw (641-17)
sorath mehlaa 5 ghar 2 asatpadee-aa
Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl, Second House, Ashtapadees:
​
pwTu piVE Aru bydu bIcwirE invil BuAMgm swDy ]
paath parhi-o ar bayd beechaari-o nival bhu-angam saaDhay.
They read scriptures, and contemplate the Vedas; they practice the inner cleansing techniques of Yoga, and control of the breath.
pMc jnw isau sMgu n CutikE AiDk AhMbuiD bwDy ]1]
panch janaa si-o sang na chhutki-o aDhik ahaN-buDh baaDhay. ||1||
But they cannot escape from the company of the five passions; they are increasingly bound to egotism. ||1||
ipAwry ien ibiD imlxu n jweI mY kIey krm Anykw ]
pi-aaray in biDh milan na jaa-ee mai kee-ay karam anaykaa.
O Beloved, this is not the way to meet the Lord; I have performed these rituals so many times.
hwir pirE suAwmI kY duAwrY dIjY buiD ibbykw ] rhwau ]
haar pari-o su-aamee kai du-aarai deejai buDh bibaykaa. rahaa-o.
I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||
moin BieE krpwqI rihE ngn iPirE bn mwhI ]
mon bha-i-o karpaatee rahi-o nagan firi-o ban maahee.
One may remain silent and use his hands as begging bowls, and wander naked in the forest.
qt qIrQ sB DrqI BRimE duibDw CutkY nwhI ]2]
tat tirath sabh Dhartee bharmi-o dubiDhaa chhutkai naahee. ||2||
He may make pilgrimages to river banks and sacred shrines all over the world, but his sense of duality will not leave him. ||2||
mn kwmnw qIrQ jwie bisE isir krvq Drwey ]
man kaamnaa tirath jaa-ay basi-o sir karvat Dharaa-ay.
His mind's desires may lead him to go and dwell at sacred places of pilgrimage, and offer his head to be sawn off;
mn kI mYlu n auqrY ieh ibiD jy lK jqn krwey ]3]
man kee mail na utrai ih biDh jay lakh jatan karaa-ay. ||3||
but this will not cause the filth of his mind to depart, even though he may make thousands of efforts. ||3||
kink kwimnI hYvr gYvr bhu ibiD dwnu dwqwrw ]
kanik kaaminee haivar gaivar baho biDh daan daataaraa.
He may give gifts of all sorts - gold, women, horses and elephants.
AMn bsqR BUim bhu Arpy nh imlIAY hir duAwrw ]4]
ann bastar bhoom baho arpay nah milee-ai har du-aaraa. ||4||
He may make offerings of corn, clothes and land in abundance, but this will not lead him to the Lord's Door. ||4||
pUjw Arcw bMdn fMfauq Ktu krmw rqu rhqw ]
poojaa archaa bandan dand-ut khat karmaa rat rahtaa.
He may remain devoted to worship and adoration, bowing his forehead to the floor, practicing the six religious rituals.
hau hau krq bMDn mih pirAw nh imlIAY ieh jugqw ]5]
ha-o ha-o karat banDhan meh pari-aa nah milee-ai ih jugtaa. ||5||
He indulges in egotism and pride, and falls into entanglements, but he does not meet the Lord by these devices. ||5||
jog isD Awsx caurwsIh ey BI kir kir rihAw ]
jog siDh aasan cha-oraaseeh ay bhee kar kar rahi-aa.
He practices the eighty-four postures of Yoga, and acquires the supernatural powers of the Siddhas, but he gets tired of practicing these.
vfI Awrjw iPir iPir jnmY hir isau sMgu n gihAw ]6]
vadee aarjaa fir fir janmai har si-o sang na gahi-aa. ||6||
He lives a long life, but is reincarnated again and again; he has not met with the Lord. ||6||
rwj lIlw rwjn kI rcnw kirAw hukmu APwrw ]
raaj leelaa raajan kee rachnaa kari-aa hukam afaaraa.
He may enjoy princely pleasures, and regal pomp and ceremony, and issue unchallenged commands.
syj sohnI cMdnu coAw nrk Gor kw duAwrw ]7]
sayj sohnee chandan cho-aa narak ghor kaa du-aaraa. ||7||
He may lie on beautiful beds, perfumed with sandalwood oil, but this will led him only to the gates of the most horrible hell. ||7||
hir kIriq swDsMgiq hY isir krmn kY krmw ]
har keerat saaDhsangat hai sir karman kai karmaa.
Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is the highest of all actions.
khu nwnk iqsu BieE prwpiq ijsu purb ilKy kw lhnw ]8]
kaho naanak tis bha-i-o paraapat jis purab likhay kaa lahnaa. ||8||
Says Nanak, he alone obtains it, who is pre-destined to receive it. ||8||
qyro syvku ieh rMig mwqw ]
tayro sayvak ih rang maataa.
Your slave is intoxicated with this Love of Yours.
BieE ik®pwlu dIn duK BMjnu hir hir kIrqin iehu mnu rwqw ] rhwau dUjw ]1]3]
bha-i-o kirpaal deen dukh bhanjan har har keertan ih man raataa. rahaa-o doojaa. ||1||3||
The Destroyer of the pains of the poor has become merciful to me, and this mind is imbued with the Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||Second Pause||1||3||

Here in this beautiful shabad the glorious Guru is emphasizing the importance of BIBEK BUDH(discerning intelllect) for seeking a union with God. The Guru rejects all austerities,karam-kands of all stripes,self mortification for a seeker of Truth.We are exhorted  to lead normal lives---No Escapism-but while so doing all our actions should have a spiritual dimension.Says the Guru:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੫ ॥ 
सलोकु मः ५ ॥ 
Salok mėhlā 5. 
Shalok, Fifth Mehl: 

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇਦਿਆ ਜੀਉ ਤੂੰ ਕਮਾਵਦਿਆ ਸੁਖ ਭੁੰਚੁ ॥ 
उदमु करेदिआ जीउ तूं कमावदिआ सुख भुंचु ॥ 
Uḏam kareḏi▫ā jī▫o ṯūŉ kamāvḏi▫ā sukẖ bẖuncẖ. 
Make the effort, and you shall live; practicing it, you shall enjoy peace. 

ਧਿਆਇਦਿਆ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਰੀ ਚਿੰਤ ॥੧॥ 
धिआइदिआ तूं प्रभू मिलु नानक उतरी चिंत ॥१॥ 
Ḏẖi▫ā▫iḏi▫ā ṯūŉ parabẖū mil Nānak uṯrī cẖinṯ. ||1|| 
Meditating, you shall meet God, O Nanak, and your anxiety shall vanish. ||1|| 
The  word  dhi-a-idi-a here does not mean sitting in a particular posture and chanting God,s name.To me it means constant awareness of the presence of God and  all my actions being guided by Him to the point they do not seem belaboured  and there is a spontaneity about them.
                                         Says the Guru:

Salok mėhlā 2. 
Shalok, Second Mehl: 

ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ 
अखी बाझहु वेखणा विणु कंना सुनणा ॥ 
Akẖī bājẖahu vekẖ▫ṇā viṇ kanna sunṇā. 
To see without eyes; to hear without ears; 

ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ 
पैरा बाझहु चलणा विणु हथा करणा ॥ 
Pairā bājẖahu cẖalṇā viṇ hathā karṇā. 
to walk without feet; to work without hands; 

ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ 
जीभै बाझहु बोलणा इउ जीवत मरणा ॥ 
Jībẖai bājẖahu bolṇā i▫o jīvaṯ marṇā. 
to speak without a tongue-like this, one remains dead while yet alive. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ 
नानक हुकमु पछाणि कै तउ खसमै मिलणा ॥१॥ 
Nānak hukam pacẖẖāṇ kai ṯa▫o kẖasmai milṇā. ||1|| 
O Nanak, recognize the Hukam of the Lord's Command, and merge with your Lord and Master. ||1|| 

God,s blessings on all.Humbly
Satnam Singh Randhawa


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Satnam ji

Thank you for posting these beautiful Shabads. They are truly key to shaping this discussion. They serve as a reminder of what the focus of attention should be and how Waheguru is an important part of our devotion. Without constant and loyal focus upon Him it is all useless. He is the one who feeds our devotion. He is the one who prepares, illuminates, purifies our inner awreness. Let us not forget to be God's dog.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AAD JI, Gurfateh.
> 
> My sincere apologies as i left it unfinished.
> The word for muck..is indeed KEECHARR as used in Gurbani
> ...



Gyani ji -- Thank you for taking all this time to explain. However my question was not that specific or spiritual in its intent. I was asking why I could not find you using the term Kitcher or Keecharr anywhere in this thread. I did a search using Edit/Find of all 3 pages and no where did it turn up. Neither did "kamal." Someone asked whether you misunderstood the importance of women in relation to the idea of the "lilly" and the "muddy pond". That was what got me started. I did not see you using either Kamal or Kitcher -- that prompted my question. It was only for moderation purposes that I asked. Alas, it seems I have sent you on some kind of wild-goose chase. Apologies.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

aad ji..it happens...btw we BOTH beleive that whatever happens..its HIS DOING...so here too..there is GOOD...some may have learnt something..maybe a few words more..or juts a breather from the ehavy spiritual task at hand....everyone needs  a breather/break now and then...so Jios its ok..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



aad0002 said:


> Satnam ji
> 
> Thank you for posting these beautiful Shabads. They are truly key to shaping this discussion. They serve as a reminder of what the focus of attention should be and how Waheguru is an important part of our devotion. Without constant and loyal focus upon Him it is all useless. He is the one who feeds our devotion. He is the one who prepares, illuminates, purifies our inner awreness. Let us not forget to be God's dog.



AAD JI,
Gurfateh.

GURBANI...as Tejwant Ji always keeps reminding us is a TOOLBOX to be used by us to RUN our Life...THE SGGS contains every tol, every method..everything we possibly need to CHANGE our Life towards Waheguru and this happens through GURPARSAAD.
ITS important thta we remember the WHOLE...people get waylaid when they begin to DISSECT individual words....

Naam Simran, Naam Japp..is NOT IDLE Parrotting by any means.Real naam japping Simran etc is LIVING GURBANI..so that we change our life..and others can see VISIBLE CHANGES. The FOUNDER..Guru Nanak Ki Ji showed us HOW....He got up early, He ploghed his fields, he sat the Modikhana, He went on a world wide journey, He threw water in the WRONG DIRECTION at hardwaar, He cooked meat on a FORBIDDEN DAY, He turrned the MINDS of millions AWAY from superstitions, bharams, wrong beleifs, that GOD only is inMecca..Hardwaar, Kanshi, He showed how aartee of idols is NOTHING compared to Natural Aartee ongoing in the Universe...NOT a MOMENT OF IDLENESS..a LIFE LONG JOURNEY..Honest KIRT..Wandd Chhaknna...Naam jappn in the REAL SENSE of the word. The NINE Successor Guurs followed EXACTLY. They Married, had children, spouses, family responsibilities, fought tyranny, wars agaisnt injustice, sold and bought horses, weapons, stocked medicines and herbs and gave out Ayurvedic Medicines to the SICK OF BODY, LIVING LIVES LIKE WE ALL DO...not an idle moment...and then WROTE DOWN thier KHASAM KI BANI..Instructiuons to achieve what they achieved..that is AApeh GUR..aapeh Chela...they gave us the Keys to Pio daadeh da khazanah...
THIS is the REASON there is NOT a SINGLE SHABAD..detailing the  so called "METHODOLOGY" of Naam japp that so many self professed Gurus, Masters etc profess to tell us all...special clothes, special surroundings, rooms, carpets, positions of seating, environment, sounds heard, muisc to be played, etc etc etc etc etc...WHY ??? *BECAUSE THIS IS UTTER RUBBISH and those who say are double guessing the GURUS.
GURBANI IS TRUTH and TRUTH MANIFESTS THROUGH HONEST GURBANI TYPE LIVING.
* 
Gurbani clearly DETAILS..what is NOT TO BE DONE...double dhotees, Malas around the neck and in hands, special seating, positions postures, fasts, tilaks on foreheads, etc etc etc etc..SO MANY SHABADS DETAIL ALL SUCH NO NO NOS. No need to sit in  aspecial posture..mumble pr parrott special words endlessly, no special foods or lack of foods, 
JUST LIVE YOUR LIFE ACCORDING TO GURBANI....use the TOOLS provided..AAKleen SAHIB SEVEAH...*not be-aklee parotting/mumbling/trying to IMPRESS* (either the cheals/followers or Waheguru Himslef !!) The preponderance of this BE-AKLEE is the RESULT of the THOUSANDS of SAADHS/SANTS/Brahmgianais etc running hundreds of thousands of DERAS to enrich themsleves...everybody wants the INSTANT SUPER QUICK CHAUTHA PAD- without LIVING..the Honest Life Kirt and wanndd chhakna .


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Guru sahib advises us

*gur satgur kaa jo sikh akhaa-ay so bhalkay uth har naam Dhi-aavai.
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

* audmu kry Blky prBwqI iesnwnu kry AMimRq sir nwvY ] (305-17, gauVI, mÚ 4)
udam karay bhalkay parbhaatee isnaan karay amrit sar naavai.
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.


aupdyis gurU hir hir jpu jwpY siB iklivK pwp doK lih jwvY ] (305-18, gauVI, mÚ 4)
*updays guroo har har jap jaapai sabh kilvikh paap dokh leh jaavai.
Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.*


iPir cVY idvsu gurbwxI gwvY bhidAw auTidAw hir nwmu iDAwvY ] (305-18, gauVI, mÚ 4)
fir charhai divas gurbaanee gaavai bahdi-aa uth-di-aa har naam Dhi-aavai.
Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.


jo swis igrwis iDAwey myrw hir hir so gurisKu gurU min BwvY ] (305-19, gauVI, mÚ 4)
jo saas giraas Dhi-aa-ay mayraa har har so gursikh guroo man bhaavai.
One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.
jis no da-i-aal hovai mayraa su-aamee tis gursikh guroo updays sunaavai.
That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]2] (306-2, gauVI, mÚ 4)
jan naanak Dhoorh mangai tis gursikh kee jo aap japai avrah naam japaavai. ||2||
Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2||


ang 305


It is strange to read how sikhs of today have started interpreting naam japna. Suffice to say that nam japna is not parroting. By saying so they are slandering Sikh rehat maryada that specifically details method of naam jap.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> What is the modus operandi in reaching the Fourth Stage ?



sireeraag mehlaa 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl: suK swgru hir nwmu hY gurmuiK pwieAw jwie ] (29-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
sukh saagar har naam hai gurmukh paa-i-aa jaa-ay.
The Name of the Lord is the Ocean of Peace; the Gurmukhs obtain it.
Anidnu nwmu iDAweIAY shjy nwim smwie ] (29-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
an-din naam Dhi-aa-ee-ai sehjay naam samaa-ay.
Meditating on the Naam, night and day, they are easily and intuitively absorbed in the Naam.
AMdru rcY hir sc isau rsnw hir gux gwie ]1] (29-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
andar rachai har sach si-o rasnaa har gun gaa-ay. ||1||
Their inner beings are immersed in the True Lord; they sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||
BweI ry jgu duKIAw dUjY Bwie ] (29-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
bhaa-ee ray jag dukhee-aa doojai bhaa-ay.
O Siblings of Destiny, the world is in misery, engrossed in the love of duality.
gur srxweI suKu lhih Anidnu nwmu iDAwie ]1] rhwau ] (29-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
gur sarnaa-ee sukh laheh an-din naam Dhi-aa-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
In the Sanctuary of the Guru, peace is found, meditating on the Naam night and day. ||1||Pause||
swcy mYlu n lwgeI mnu inrmlu hir iDAwie ] (29-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
saachay mail na laag-ee man nirmal har Dhi-aa-ay.
The truthful ones are not stained by filth. Meditating on the Lord, their minds remain pure.
gurmuiK sbdu pCwxIAY hir AMimRq nwim smwie ] (29-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
gurmukh sabad pachhaanee-ai har amrit naam samaa-ay.
The Gurmukhs realize the Word of the Shabad; they are immersed in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Lord's Name.
gur igAwnu pRcMfu blwieAw AigAwnu AMDyrw jwie ]2] (29-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
gur gi-aan parchand balaa-i-aa agi-aan anDhayraa jaa-ay. ||2||
The Guru has lit the brilliant light of spiritual wisdom, and the darkness of ignorance has been dispelled. ||2||
mnmuK mYly mlu Bry haumY iqRsnw ivkwru ] (29-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
manmukh mailay mal bharay ha-umai tarisnaa vikaar.
The self-willed manmukhs are polluted. They are filled with the pollution of egotism, wickedness and desire.
ibnu sbdY mYlu n auqrY mir jMmih hoie KuAwru ] (29-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
bin sabdai mail na utrai mar jameh ho-ay khu-aar.
Without the Shabad, this pollution is not washed off; through the cycle of death and rebirth, they waste away in misery.
Dwqur bwjI plic rhy nw aurvwru n pwru ]3] (29-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
Dhaatur baajee palach rahay naa urvaar na paar. ||3||
Engrossed in this transitory drama, they are not at home in either this world or the next. ||3||
gurmuiK jp qp sMjmI hir kY nwim ipAwru ] (29-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
gurmukh jap tap sanjmee har kai naam pi-aar.
For the Gurmukh, the love of the Name of the Lord is chanting, deep meditation and self-discipline.
gurmuiK sdw iDAweIAY eyku nwmu krqwru ] (29-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
gurmukh sadaa Dhi-aa-ee-ai ayk naam kartaar.
The Gurmukh meditates forever on the Name of the One Creator Lord.
nwnk nwmu iDAweIAY sBnw jIAw kw AwDwru ]4]7]40] (29-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
naanak naam Dhi-aa-ee-ai sabhnaa jee-aa kaa aaDhaar. ||4||7||40||
O Nanak, meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the Support of all beings. ||4||7||40||


ang 29


By following the method as followed by countless Gursikhs who achieved this by becoming Gurmukhs and not to set new paths of opur own.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Guru sahib advises us
> 
> It is strange to read how sikhs of today have started interpreting naam japna. Suffice to say that nam japna is not parroting. By saying so they are slandering Sikh rehat maryada that specifically details method of naam jap.



You seem to be saying that "interpreting" is adverse to "reciting" and that people who have a problem with "parroting" are in the dark because they also want to know what the words mean. When and by whom were Sikhs prohibited from a vichaar of Japuji Sahib? 

If that is not what you mean, Inder ji, please explain.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

aad ji

Procedure of naam japna is explained in sikh rehat maryada elaborately. There is no vagueness here.Nam japna has stages that we arrive at when we are in the process such as reciation by tongue
to start with followed by rasna and surat. then it goes in our system. 

So to call it parroting is ignorance and slander of sikh rehat maryada that has been derived by dedicated well learned Gursikhs after deliberations of over 16 years. 

Read

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

[SIZE=-1]*Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures*
* Article IV *
                        1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three                          hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her                          thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru                          (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness). [/SIZE]

Read the line below 



> an-din naam Dhi-aa-ee-ai sehjay naam samaa-ay.
> Meditating on the Naam, night and day, they are easily and intuitively absorbed in the Naam.[/QUOTE


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*




Inder singh said:


> aad ji
> 
> Procedure of naam japna is explained in sikh rehat maryada elaborately. There is no vagueness here.Nam japna has stages that we arrive at when we are in the process such as reciation by tongue
> to start with followed by rasna and surat. then it goes in our system.
> ...





Inder singh said:


> [SIZE=-1]*Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures*
> * Article IV *
> 1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three                          hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her                          thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru                          (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness). [/SIZE]
> 
> ...


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> *Where is it written that a vichaar of Japjui is prohibited? Who said so?
> 
> *One final request. Do not write on these matters as if I am ill informed on these matters or an idiot.



i never said that vichar of japji sahib is prohibited. One need to read and contemplate Gurbani as much as possible.

What i say that vichar does not make naam japna an obsolete exercise as some are pointing here.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> i never said that vichar of japji sahib is prohibited. One need to read and contemplate Gurbani as much as possible.
> 
> What i say that vichar does not make naam japna an obsolete exercise as some are pointing here.



Thanks for the clarification.   Who said that naamj apna was an obsolete exercise? I will be back online later to find out.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



aad0002 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.   Who said that naamj apna was an obsolete exercise? I will be back online later to find out.



Please read the posts and you will come to know. It is being said that nam japna is a ritual etc. etc.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Inder ji

Forgive me -- But you are the one who made the accusation that one or more forum members said that naam japna is a useless exercise. So now you cannot back-pedal and ask me to re-read all the comments to see who said it. You made the claim so now... *Please identify the person or persons who said that naam japna is a useless exercise. *It is your turn. 

Yesterday I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out why someone thought that Gyani ji had been negative about women in a supposed comment about lillies and mud-ponds. He never even brought such up. I knew it was a hollow claim. But I checked anyway (for both Punjabi and English phrases), it wasn't there, and concluded that hollow accusations are becoming a habit.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



aad0002 said:


> Inder ji
> 
> Forgive me -- But you are the one who made the accusation that one or more forum members said that naam japna is a useless exercise. So now you cannot back-pedal and ask me to re-read all the comments to see who said it. You made the claim so now... *Please identify the person or persons who said that naam japna is a useless exercise. *It is your turn.
> 
> Yesterday I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out why someone thought that Gyani ji had been negative about women in a supposed comment about lillies and mud-ponds. He never even brought such up. I knew it was a hollow claim. But I checked anyway (for both Punjabi and English phrases), it wasn't there, and concluded that hollow accusations are becoming a habit.


 

Aad ji

You may remember that discussion was on chautha pad.This is mentioned in gurbani and most of us know that chautha pad is achieved by nam jap with honest life being the basics. There was a query from Ajmer singh and  i cited bandginama by Bhai raghbir singh ji for his reference.

We all know that gurbani does not endorse any meaningless rituals or life of a sanyasi but does supprt naam japna. Then came a post quoted below . Then there were posts ridiculing nam japna as parroting. I do not understand how such a conscious person like you failed to gauge those posts.

It is not my job to point out the posts of others for you. If you have any questions next time yourself as a participant in this thread feel free to ask me and i will reply per my understanding. If you have no questions then let the discussion proceed.

quote

Dear Friends,We are lucky to be born Sikhs,for the Guru has shown us how to be truly liberated.Liberation....Chautha Pad does not ensue from a life given to austerities,renunciation and myriads of meaningless rituals.Gurmat teaches us that this world is real.So live in accordance with the Guru,s Hukam:ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥ 
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25433 (Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life)
नानक सतिगुरि भेटिऐ पूरी होवै जुगति ॥ 
Nānak saṯgur bẖeti▫ai pūrī hovai jugaṯ. 
O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way. 

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥੨॥ 
हसंदिआ खेलंदिआ पैनंदिआ खावंदिआ विचे होवै मुकति ॥२॥ 
Hasanḏi▫ā kẖelanḏi▫ā painanḏi▫ā kẖāvanḏi▫ā vicẖe hovai mukaṯ. ||2|| 
While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2|| 


And also:

ਵਿਚਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥ 
विचि दुनीआ सेव कमाईऐ ॥ 
vicẖ ḏunī▫ā sev kamā▫ī▫ai. 
In the midst of this world, do seva, 

ਤਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
ता दरगह बैसणु पाईऐ ॥ 
Ŧā ḏargėh baisaṇ pā▫ī▫ai. 
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25433 (Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life)
and you shall be given a place of honor in the Court of the Lord. 

The Guru has shown us THE WAY but if escapism,austerities and meaningless rituals seem so endearing,then we have to make concerted efforts to understand the Guru,s Word.Gurbani says...Raj na chahun, mukat na chahun, man preet charan kamlaare. What is this preet charan? It is to have complete faith in Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib and follow its teachings religiously.It is to make constant efforts to imbibe all those attributes ascribed to Akal Purakh andto do it while seeking the Grace of God.Simple and straightforward. Gurmat Gaadi Rah HumblySatnam Singh Randhawa​


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

aad ji

Another refrence for you. You must be aware that bhagti or meditation is done while sitting in a posture. 

quote

The word dhi-a-idi-a here does not mean sitting in a particular posture and chanting God,s name.To me it means constant awareness of the presence of God and all my actions being guided by Him to the point they do not seem belaboured and there is a spontaneity about them.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



aad0002 said:


> Inder ji
> 
> Forgive me -- But you are the one who made the accusation that one or more forum members said that naam japna is a useless exercise. So now you cannot back-pedal and ask me to re-read all the comments to see who said it. You made the claim so now... *Please identify the person or persons who said that naam japna is a useless exercise. *It is your turn.



Inder ji - I will repeat myself this time in blue - as these were the comments of moderator, not participant. 

I repeat*

Forgive me -- But you are the one who made the accusation that one or more forum members said that naam japna is a useless exercise. So now you cannot back-pedal and ask me to re-read all the comments to see who said it. You made the claim so now... Please identify the person or persons who said that naam japna is a useless exercise. It is your turn. *

If you feel it is not your job to reply as you said, _"It is not my job to point out the posts of others for you" _then I can safely conclude that *you are back-pedaling and do not believe you need to back up your claims with evidence*, no more and no less.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Aad ji
> 
> You may remember that discussion was on chautha pad.This is mentioned in gurbani and most of us know that chautha pad is achieved by nam jap with honest life being the basics. There was a query from Ajmer singh and  i cited bandginama by Bhai raghbir singh ji for his reference.
> 
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inder ji

There is nothing in this post by forum member Satnam ji that states that recitation of naam japna is a useless exercise. In fact the comments are consistent with this passage from the rehit maryada.


_[SIZE=-1]*CHAPTER                X*[/SIZE]_​ _[SIZE=-1] *Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)*

*Article XVI* [/SIZE]_​ _[SIZE=-1]

                     A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct                should accord with the Guru's   tenets. The Guru's tenets                are:

              a. Worship should be rendered only to the One                Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.  

              b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib                and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours                and holy objects of veneration.

              c. Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one                light and one single entity.

              d. Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens,  auspicious                times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions,                Shradh (ritual serving                of food to priests for the salvation of ancestor on appointed days                as                per the lunar calendar), Ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving                of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of death                of an ancestor) (Two words, shradh and khiah, occuring  in                this clause connote what appears to be the same thing - the ritual                serving of food to the priests (Brahmins). The difference between                the connotations of the two words is  implicit in the dates                on which the ritual is performed. The ritual of serving of food                on the lunar anniversary of the death goes by the name khiah; whereas                the ritual of serving food on the lunar date corresponding to the                date of death during the period of the year designated shradhs is known                as sharadh.) pind (offering of funeral barley cakes to the  deceased's                relatives), patal (ritual donating of food in the belief that                that would satisfy the hunger of a departed soul), diva (the ceremony                of keeping an oil lamp lit for 360 days  after the death, in                the belief that that lights the path of the deceased), ritual funeral                acts. hom (lighting of ritual fire and pouring intermittently clarified                butter, food grains etc. into it for propitiating gods for the fulfilment                of a purpose), jag (religious ceremony involving presentation of                oblations), tarpan (libation), sikha-sut (keeping a tuft of hair                on the head and wearing thread), bhadan (shaving of head on the                death of a parent), fasting on new or full moon or other days, wearing                of frontal marks on forehead, wearing of thread, wearing  of                a necklace of the pieces of tulsi (A plant with medicinal properties,                Bot, Ocimum sanctum.), stalk, veneration of any graves, of monuments                erected to honour the memory of a deceased person or of cremation                sites, idolatry and such like superstitious observances (Most,                though not all, rituals and ritual or religious observances listed                in this clause are hindu rituals and observances. The reason is                that the old rituals and practices, continues to be observed by                large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old                to new faith and a large bulk of the Sikhs novices were Hindu converts.                Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle hold of the                Brahmin priest on Hindus' secular and religious life which the Brahmin                priests managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious                fold, by the his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for  compromise.                That the Sikh novitiates included a sizeable number of Muslims is                shown by inclusion in this clause of the taboos as to the sanctity                of graves, shirni etc.) 

                                   Not owning up  or regarding as hallowed any place other                than the Guru's place- such, for instance, as sacred sports or places                of pilgrimage of other faiths.

                                   Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins'                holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering                on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding                at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the                Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran,                the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths                for general self-education is admissible.[/SIZE]_

So Satnam ji *cannot *be the culprit. Who is the culprit?  And if Inder ji you have questions regarding Bandginama or Bhai Raghbir Singh ji -- Please feel free to ask me and I will reply as per my understanding. Just send me a pm. :yes:


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

AAd ji

I am not able to understand what you are trying to tell me. The following line is also from the same person.

quote

The word dhi-a-idi-a here does not mean sitting in a particular posture and chanting God,s name.To me it means constant awareness of the presence of God and all my actions being guided by Him to the point they do not seem belaboured and there is a spontaneity about them. 

unquote

Have you read that? If so what does it mean? here he is rejectring nam jap or meditation altogether?
Do not try to be a biased reader.

Thanks for your offer about bandginama . have you read that? if so try to apply in your life also.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Can anyone quote just ONE Complete Shabad that declares"
Naam Japp is to be done PARKED in one place.

Each and Every shabad is about Naam japp..24/7..DIN RAAT...swaas grass..all the time..every single moment..awake or sleeping...

Guru Ji DOES NOT GIVE/LIMIT Naam japp to ANY FIXED TIME/hours/postures/positions.
All Gursikhs are to eb Householders, perform KIRT..and wanndd chhak from the proceeds fo that Honest Labour. Period.:whisling::whisling::whisling:  HASENDIAN>>KHELDIAN>..playing and laughing...Love Waheguur...:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Can anyone quote just ONE Complete Shabad that declares"
> Naam Japp is to be done PARKED in one place.
> 
> Each and Every shabad is about Naam japp..24/7..DIN RAAT...swaas grass..all the time..every single moment..awake or sleeping...
> ...


 
Can the learned poster tell us what does he understand by nam jap. There seems to be a difference of opinion on the definition of naam jap.


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## spnadmin (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*




Inder singh said:


> AAd ji
> 
> I am not able to understand what you are trying to tell me. The following line is also from the same person.
> 
> ...



Veer Inder ji

I can tell from your private messages that you are a passionate and genuine person because it is clear that you care very deeply about this topic. Try to see my point. I am still waiting for an answer - *Please tell me who said that reciting Naam Japna is a useless exercise?  *

Now you are asking a different question and suggesting that if someone gives the answer you do not agree with that they are rejecting Naam Japna and/or meditation altogether. 

We are looking now at another word. But put it in context. Here is the statement you have asked about: _"The word *dhi-a-idi-a* here does not mean sitting in a particular posture and chanting God,s name.To me it means constant awareness of the presence of God and all my actions being guided by Him to the point they do not seem belaboured and there is a spontaneity about them."_

I do not know where/in which post the word _*"dhi-a-idi-a" *_comes up  Are you talking about *Dh-i-aa-ee-ai. *If you are talking about *Dh-i-aa-ee-ai* it refers to meditate. The modern Punjabi word for "sit"  as in sitting down is _baihna_ or _baithna_. Interestingly enough in Gurbani the same word is close "baisan" (my grammatical form may be off here). In other words, _dhyaan_ means meditate, and it means sit, as long as the sense of "sit" is *seated in meditation.* Otherwise another word for "sit" has to be used -- which Guruji does in fact do -- there are several words for "sit"

The interesting thing about all of this is that  Zen Buddhism has the same idea. When a Zen Buddhist says he/she is going to "sit" he/she means _going to sit in meditation_ or meditate. It is called _zazen.  __"Upon his own enlightenment, Buddha was in seated meditation; Zen practice returns to the same seated meditation again and again. For two thousand five hundred years that meditation has continued, from generation to generation; it's the most important thing that has been passed on. It spread from India to China, to Japan, to other parts of Asia, and then finally to the West."_ Zen Mountain Monastery: Zen Meditation Instructions


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## spnadmin (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Inder ji

OK - I found it about 4 pages back. You are referring to this:

Begin Quote:

ਧਿਆਇਦਿਆ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਰੀ ਚਿੰਤ ॥੧॥ 
धिआइदिआ तूं प्रभू मिलु नानक उतरी चिंत ॥१॥ 
*Ḏẖi▫ā▫iḏi▫ā *ṯūŉ parabẖū mil Nānak uṯrī cẖinṯ. ||1|| 
Meditating, you shall meet God, O Nanak, and your anxiety shall vanish. ||1|| 
The word dhi-a-idi-a here does not mean sitting in a particular posture and chanting God,s name.To me it means constant awareness of the presence of God and all my actions being guided by Him to the point they do not seem belaboured and there is a spontaneity about them.

End Quote
*
It means meditate. *Professor Surinder Singh Kohli gives the same definition. At first I felt it was waste of everyone's time to go through that whole exercise on meditating and sitting in my post just above. But now I think it was a good thing. This *Ḏẖi▫ā▫iḏi▫ā* conveys exactly the same idea as the Japanese "zazen" or sit/be in a mindful state of contemplation or awareness. BTW you do not have to sit to be in a mindful state of awareness in Zen Buddhism either. 


My conclusion - the poster who happens to be Satnam ji is not rejecting Naam Japna altogether. How did you come to this conclusion:_"here he is rejectring nam jap or meditation altogether?_


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> I do not know where/in which post the word _*"dhi-a-idi-a" *_comes up



I think i had indicated the person to you in one of my posts. Please understand that we are not arguing in a court of law. We are not attorneys who wrangle of technicalities of language. We are on a religious discussion forum. Thank you for clarifying about your understadnig of Punjabi word dhiave that some people are interpreting in a different way.


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## spnadmin (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

In the right context both words can mean "sit" as in situated in meditation. Not sit as in sitting down.


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> My conclusion - the poster who happens to be Satnam ji is not rejecting Naam Japna altogether. How did you come to this conclusion:_"here he is rejectring nam jap or meditation altogether?_



Because in sikhism naam japna starts with jeebha or chanting with tongue and it progresses as we elevate ourselves. This is called naam japna and sikh rehat maryada endorses that. 

But for some people have a  different ideology tand they call it a meaningless or ritual. That is what Inder singh Ghagha a missionary sated about naam japna in a video debate in toronto and got excommunicated.That is why i asked  for clarification on the definition of naam japna.


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## spnadmin (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Inder ji

Yes I know that there are some people who think that the recitation of Naam Japna is a meaningless ritual. You don't think so. I don't think so. And it does not look as if Satnam ji thinks that either. He was making a different point.


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> My conclusion - the poster who happens to be Satnam ji is not rejecting Naam Japna altogether. How did you come to this conclusion:_"here he is rejectring nam jap or meditation altogether?_



Because in sikhism naam japna starts with jeebha or chanting with tongue and it progresses as we elevate ourselves. This is called naam japna and sikh rehat maryada endorses that. 

But for some people have a  different ideology tand they call it a meaningless or ritual. That is what Inder singh Ghagha a missionary sated about naam japna in a video debate in toronto and got excommunicated.That is why i asked people of this ideology for clarification on the definition of naam japna.


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## spnadmin (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Because in sikhism naam japna starts with jeebha or chanting with tongue and it progresses as we elevate ourselves. This is called naam japna and sikh rehat maryada endorses that.
> 
> But for some people have a  different ideology tand they call it a meaningless or ritual. That is what Inder singh Ghagha a missionary sated about naam japna in a video debate in toronto and got excommunicated.That is why i asked people of this ideology for clarification on the definition of naam japna.




Inder ji

These matters have been a topic of discussion in the sangat at large for several years now. So it is serious and it is controversial and it has torn Sikhism into pieces.

But no one in this thread has subscribed to the idea that Naam Japna is a meaningless ritual. It is important to give other posters a chance to frame their ideas without being suspected of crimes against Sikhism. Do you see my point. It is one thing to be firmly commited to a religious concept, in fact it is admirable. But why condemn others?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

IN BUddhism as seen in Tibetan Lama monasteries...they have FANS on which Mantras/scared scriptures are written...people BUY these Fans and install them in the Monastery before the Altar...and as the WIND makes the Fans rotate..its supposedly beleived that the Mantra is being Japped..and the person whose Fan it is..is getting the MERITS !!

Tibetan Buddhism is nearly 2500 YEARS OLD...FIVE TIMES the AGE OF GURMATT.
THINK...IF in just 500 years we have PROGRESSED to SELLING pre-read, pre-pared akhand paaths/paaths/REMOTE ARDASSES....etc which are supposed to earn MERITS for the BUYER of such..where do you think Gurmatt will be in 2000 years down the road ?? Will we progress to having Japji or Sukhmani or Waheguru printed on FANS...and when the Fans spin in the wind..we get the MERITS ??

THIS is the ROAD..our beloved SANTS SAADHS so called Brahmgianis Gurus etc are trying to make us FOLLOW...its to their Immense benefit..more and more money...power and prestige...Thats what the clergy..the ragis, granthis, jathedars, all WANT...JUST PAY US..and we will do EVERYTHING..paath/kirtan/ardass..everything as  a Package...dont worry Guru Bhalee Karega. This si the GORAKH DHANDDAH...the meaningless ritualised spirtual journey that GURBANI FORBIDS.

Buddhist still have Jaap...their MONKS will come and chant for an entire week non stop 24/7..provided you can PAY. WE in malaysia see this all the time..Funerals...besides the Monks and religious priests..the Buddhists Temples even arrange PAID MOURNERS...they are paid..to arrive, sit down in funeral attire..and pretend to cry and wail as if they lost the dear one...all is pretense...at the end of the three days or week or whatever arrangement..ALL pack up and leave..the monks who chanted "Naam"...the Mourners, the caretakers, the body embalmers, florists, etc etc EACH has a ROLE.
IN other Religious functions..for example new shop opened, new house, new born baby...etc etc also the SAME...paid MONKS will CHANT Mantras...for ONLY as long as the MONEY is PAID...just like the JUKEBOXES in which a coin makes the LP record play for a certain amount of time !!

We are NOT far behind..our GURDWARAS..granthis, etc do exactly the same thing...they will do the ARDASS as LONG as you want...praise after praise..of you, your grandfather, your ancestors...even for an HOUR..as long as they KNOW how fat the envelope is !!! IF too small a payment..then Bhog Sloks are run thru at Breakneck speed..Anand sahib is one stretch of railgadee passing by...ardass is over even before it began...hukmanama is the shortest one..and wand degh and chaklo chaklo...and its OH gayeh oh gayeh...  THIS is GORAKH DHANDAH..ritualised nonsense. not as per Gurmatt.

GURMATT is FOR LIVING...PRACTICAL LIVING...easily attainable..within reach of every one..GURBANI has got to be LIVED..PRACTISED..its not a  theory....or formula to be memeorised and parrotted.:u)::u)::u): NO JIOS..its got to BE LIVED  daily 24/7:welcome::welcome::welcome:


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਹੋਇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ 
jih simaran hoe mukath dhuaar ||
Remembering Him in meditation, the door of liberation is found.
 7 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਾਹਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਨਹੀ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ 
jaahi baikunth nehee sansaar ||
You shall go to heaven, and not return to this earth.
 7 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਨਿਰਭਉ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਬਜਾਵਹਿ ਤੂਰ ॥ 
nirabho kai ghar bajaavehi thoor ||
In the home of the Fearless Lord, the celestial trumpets resound.
 7 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਅਨਹਦ ਬਜਹਿ ਸਦਾ ਭਰਪੂਰ ॥੧॥ 
anehadh bajehi sadhaa bharapoor ||1||
The unstruck sound current will vibrate and resonate forever. ||1||
 8 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਐਸਾ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
aisaa simaran kar man maahi ||
Practice such meditative remembrance in your mind.
 8 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਬਿਨੁ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਤ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
bin simaran mukath kath naahi ||1|| rehaao ||
Without this meditative remembrance, liberation will never be found. ||1||Pause||
 8 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਨਕਾਰੁ ॥ 
jih simaran naahee nanakaar ||
Remembering Him in meditation, you will meet with no obstruction.
 9 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਉਤਰੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਰੁ ॥ 
mukath karai outharai bahu bhaar ||
You will be liberated, and the great load will be taken away.
 9 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਨਮਸਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
namasakaar kar hiradhai maahi ||
Bow in humility within your heart,
 9 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਵਨੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥ 
fir fir thaeraa aavan naahi ||2||
and you will not have to be reincarnated over and over again. ||2||
 10 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੂ ਕੇਲ ॥ 
jih simaran karehi thoo kael ||
Remember Him in meditation, celebrate and be happy.
 10 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਦੀਪਕੁ ਬਾਂਧਿ ਧਰਿਓ ਬਿਨੁ ਤੇਲ ॥ 
dheepak baandhh dhhariou bin thael ||
God has placed His lamp deep within you, which burns without any oil.
 10 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸੋ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਅਮਰਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ 
so dheepak amarak sansaar ||
That lamp makes the world immortal;
 11 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਬਿਖੁ ਕਾਢੀਲੇ ਮਾਰਿ ॥੩॥ 
kaam krodhh bikh kaadteelae maar ||3||
it conquers and drives out the poisons of sexual desire and anger. ||3||
 11 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
jih simaran thaeree gath hoe ||
Remembering Him in meditation, you shall obtain salvation.
 11 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸੋ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਰਖੁ ਕੰਠਿ ਪਰੋਇ ॥ 
so simaran rakh kanth paroe ||
Wear that meditative remembrance as your necklace.
 12 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸੋ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਰਾਖੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥ 
so simaran kar nehee raakh outhaar ||
Practice that meditative remembrance, and never let it go.
 12 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਉਤਰਹਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੪॥ 
gur parasaadhee outharehi paar ||4||
By Guru's Grace, you shall cross over. ||4||
 12 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਨਿ ॥ 
jih simaran naahee thuhi kaan ||
Remembering Him in meditation, you shall not be obligated to others.
 13 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਮੰਦਰਿ ਸੋਵਹਿ ਪਟੰਬਰ ਤਾਨਿ ॥ 
mandhar sovehi pattanbar thaan ||
You shall sleep in your mansion, in blankets of silk.
 13 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸੇਜ ਸੁਖਾਲੀ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
saej sukhaalee bigasai jeeo ||
Your soul shall blossom forth in happiness, on this comfortable bed.
 13 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸੋ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਤੂ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਪੀਉ ॥੫॥ 
so simaran thoo anadhin peeo ||5||
So drink in this meditative remembrance, night and day. ||5||
 13 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਾਇ ਬਲਾਇ ॥ 
jih simaran thaeree jaae balaae ||
Remembering Him in meditation, your troubles will depart.
 14 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਪੋਹੈ ਨ ਮਾਇ ॥ 
jih simaran thujh pohai n maae ||
Remembering Him in meditation, Maya will not bother you.
 14 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਗਾਈਐ ॥ 
simar simar har har man gaaeeai ||
Meditate, meditate in remembrance on the Lord, Har, Har, and sing His Praises in your mind.
 14 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਇਹੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੬॥ 
eihu simaran sathigur thae paaeeai ||6||
This meditative remembrance is obtained from the True Guru. ||6||
 15 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥ 
sadhaa sadhaa simar dhin raath ||
Forever and ever, remember Him, day and night,
 15 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਊਠਤ ਬੈਠਤ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
oothath baithath saas giraas ||
while standing up and sitting down, with every breath and morsel of food.
 16 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਾਗੁ ਸੋਇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ॥ 
jaag soe simaran ras bhog ||
While awake and asleep, enjoy the essence of this meditative remembrance.
 16 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸੰਜੋਗ ॥੭॥ 
har simaran paaeeai sanjog ||7||
The Lord's meditative remembrance is obtained by good destiny. ||7||
 16 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਝੁ ਭਾਰ ॥ 
jih simaran naahee thujh bhaar ||
Remembering Him in meditation, you shall not be loaded down.
 17 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਸੋ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
so simaran raam naam adhhaar ||
Make this meditative remembrance of the Lord's Name your Support.
 17 Raamkalee Saint Kabir  ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਨਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ॥


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Gyani ji, 
You are highlighting the weaknesses of management committees for their prepaid services, but have you ever thought who is guilty. You Gyani ji-you the multimillionaire foreigner Sikhs, who have lured them by paying hefty amount in lieu of the prepaid services. You people just ring them and according to your suitability , you book, get it performed and pay through credit cards double, triple or quadruple then the actual amount. Even you ask them for a fixed Ardass which one can do himself. There is no ban on Ardas by oneself.
This custom is not in practice in India. Here people welcome guru Sahab ji at their cleaned house, wash the feet and hands of Paathi Singhs by a family member, Paathis are offered tea, milk, langar, etc before and after he recites Paath at Tabya. Paathis are provided the best arrangement to their comfort during Akhand Paath is recited. A family member is always present near Guru Sahab ji. 
So please don’ say that this is a common practice. We Sikhs seeks this golden opportunity to welcome Guru Granth Sahab ji at our home, in the hope , that just by the visit of Guru ji our home will get purify but now- a-days our houses are small and we are compelled by the circumstances to miss this opportunity in our life other than special occasions of Marriage, birth etc.
Instead of criticizing please do something from your resources to wipe out this malpractice in the interest of our Panth.
Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

To reach chautha pad is an individual's exercise. To blame community for this is just to deflect the discussion.


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

*

​Naam Mantra JapNaam Mantra Jap​ **M.S. Bhatia**​ _* Address: A-2/36, Safdarjang Enclave, New Delhi. 110 029. Email: jsbhatia@mantraonline.com_
Naam Mantra jap is a spiritual practice primarily intended to bring about spiritual advancement of an individual. It consists in the person choosing a word or stanza and sitting in quiet solitude, repeating the same. Our mind, normally, has a tendency to keep on shifting from one thought to the other at random; it should be gently brought back to the process of repetition of the chosen word or stanza. The aspirant should try to listen to the _Naam mantra_ being uttered within, even though inaudible; it will help him in keeping the mind focussed on the process and thus make the _jap_ much more effective. The _mantra_ should be practiced daily for a minimum period of about half an hour, preferably twice – morning and evening. Gradually, however time for _mantra jap_ should be extended to other parts of the day so as to fill gaps or spare time between other normal activities, or when engaged on such activities as do not require any mental work e.g. bathing, dressing, walking, waiting, resting, and before sleep. 
The chosen word for the _Naam Japna_ should represent the Divine Reality or Deity of the individual according to his religious belief or the chosen stanza should reflect the ethical and spiritual values of the individual. The word is so chosen that it draws aspirant’s attention to the Spiritual Reality during the _jap_.
When _Naam mantra_ is practiced regularly for some time at conscious level, gradually the  sub-conscious takes over, and the_ jap_ goes on even when the conscious mind is engaged in other activities. As soon as a gap occurs in an activity _Naam_ will surface up at conscious level of its own. Thus the _jap_ becomes, so to say, automatic called ‘_ajapa jap_’ or _simran_. If a person goes to sleep over the _mantra_, whenever he happens to wake up at night, he will find that the _jap_ is going on in his mind.    
Gradually, this practice slows down the wandering tendency of the mind and increases the power of mental concentration of the aspirant. The practice purifies the mind and reduces the inborn tendencies for lust, anger, greed, selfishness and pride, sanctifies his outlook towards life, increases awareness, raises level of consciousness and brings about all round spiritual advancement. The aspirant becomes honest, truthful, considerate, caring, loving, kind, forgiving and humble. He gets a feeling of bliss and joy during the _jap_ and that keeps him hooked to the practice. The _mantra_ completely transforms the individual and religion becomes a part of his daily life. What is important is regularity of practice, persistence and an inner urge for self- realization. 
In the advanced stages of this practice, the aspirant should, during the course of his _Naam jap_, mentally fill his mind with God-consciousness and subjectively feel the presence of God as a Spiritual Reality within him and all around him. He begins to see ‘beauty’ and a ‘touch’ of His presence in everything around him. _Gurbani_ says:- *‘so antar so bahir anant, ghut ghut biap raiha Bhagvant.’* - that is : the same Infinite which is outside is inside you ; He is all pervading and in every being. This is what is termed as a state of communion with God. Aspirant’s concept of God also, gradually changes from Personal to Impersonal. A spiritualist addressing Him says:
   Thou Life within my life, than self more near, 
     Thou Veiled Presence, infinitely clear,                                  
     From all illusive shows of sense I flee,      
     To find my Centre and my rest in Thee.                                        
How does _Naam mantra_ work? _Mantra_  slowly develops the four ‘D’s of mind-culture namely: *discrimination, determination, discipline and detachment, *as follows:- (a)  *Discrimination* – the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. *Mantra* makes the aspirant more *receptive* to the inflow of Divine Intelligence that pervades the entire universe; this inflow enhances the ability of the individual to know what is right and what is wrong, and he is thus in a position to make right choices and take correct decisions.(b) *Determination* – the ability to implement one’s decisions. For practicing _jap_ the aspirant makes use of his faculty of *will*; it is a law of life that any organ of body or faculty of mind  that is used regularly gets strengthened. In the practice of _mantra jap_ the individual makes use of his faculty of ‘will’; this enables him to strengthen his will power and to gradually extend its domain to subconscious, so as to be able to free his ‘self’ from conflicts, fears, selfishness, greed, lust and cravings which are rooted in the subconscious. (c) *Discipline *- A person with a strong will is well-disciplined and he is able to exercise better control on his mind and resist temptations. (d) *Detachment* - the ability to keep the mind off from all that is unimportant and irrelevant in life. This quality follows the earlier qualities (a), (b) and (c) An individual who is regular in practicing _mantra jap_ gets tuned to the Infinite within and gets Divine guidance  for living a good life.
 Indeed _Naam Mantra_ _jap_ as a religious practice, forms the core of most of the religions of the world, including Sikhism. There is another form of practice which makes use of the principle of *auto-suggestion*; it consists in, while sitting in a meditative pose, repeating mentally selected _shabads_, _bhajjans_, psalms, inspiring poems, passages, etc. This form of meditation brings about desirable changes in the sub-conscious. Some spiritualists recommend combining the above form of meditation for daily formal sittings in the morning and evenings and _mantra jap_ to fill gaps in normal activities during the day, whenever feasible, and at night when lying down for sleep. In Sikhism _mantra_ _jap_ is combined with recitation of _gurbani_ at personal level and listening to _shabad-kirtan_ at community level. 
*Other benefits of Naam mantra jap
*Regular practice of _Naam mantra jap_ has, apart from spiritual, many other uses and benefits. It brings about physical relaxation, slows down breathing rate, reduces blood pressure, slows down aging process and brings about a general feeling of well-being. It serves as an anti-stress measure and boosts up immune system. During illness it aids healing and promotes early recovery. Persons, who are regular in _Naam jap_, take good care of their body and, normally, enjoy a long  and healthy life. 
 The _Jaap_ promotes mental peace, increases the capacity for mental concentration and ability for putting in sustained mental work for long periods. Thus, regular practice of _Naam jap_ makes a person mentally more efficient and productive; he acquires freedom to think only of that which is of benefit to him and /or to others. When mind switches off, at random, from one thought to the other in a continuous row, lot of mental energy is wasted, _Naam_ enables an aspirant to conserve mental energy by slowing down the process  of thinking. 
 When time is hanging heavy over you and you are feeling bored, fill your mind with _Naam_ to take off the boredom. Watching TV aimlessly, just to fill time is a great drag on your mental energy and quite enervating. 
 The _Naam_ enables us to direct our attention at will from negative to positive thinking. In times of distress it enables us to take our thoughts off from worry, sorrow, pain or any nagging problem and calms down the mind. Every individual has within his subconscious, an immense reserve of creative wisdom and love; _Naam mantra_ enables us to make use of that capacity and enrich life.
 If you spend a lot of time on reading and writing, it is a good practice to rest for a short while, to close your eyes and to repeat _Naam mantra_. When you are unwell and lying in bed at home or in hospital, practice _Naam mantra_. This would take your mind off from pain, discomfort or any brooding tendency. 
 If a person has strong likes and dislikes, strong opinions and set habits, his responses become mechanical and subjective; in other words, he is a slave to his inner urges and loses his freedom of choice. His way of life, therefore, becomes unsound. He behaves as if he has no control on his mind. _Mantra_ helps him in gaining control over the mind, in making wise choices and in living a more meaningful life. Persons with strong likes and dislikes are, generally extremely self-centered and they cannot appreciate other people’s point of view. They are too rigid in their approach and personal relationships. This trait of theirs stands in their way of their growth and spiritual advancement. They are intolerant and impatient; they find it difficult to get along with others and to make adjustments where needed. They cannot co-operate with others and therefore do not get co-operation from others. They cannot undertake disagreeable jobs, however important they may be. When a person gains control over his mind, through _mantra_, he can drop a job which he likes and do a job which he dislikes, when doing so becomes necessary from consideration of some overall advantage to himself as well as to others.
 An unstable mind gets very much elated on success and depressed on meeting a failure. It is a law of life that too much elation brings a reactive depression afterwards. A stable person never goes to extremes and remains calm and tranquil under all circumstances. This ability to remain calm and steady is acquired through regular practice of _mantra jap_.  
 While concluding, it will not be an exaggeration to state that _mantra jap_ has been rightly called the *Elixir* of life. _Gurbani_ says:-* ‘Sarb rog ka aukhad naam.’* that is -  _mantra jap_ is a cure for every ill. In case of those who lead a very busy life its regular practice of even half an hour daily will bring about immense benefits, physical, mental, social, psychological and spiritual.


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## spnadmin (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Inder ji and Ajmer ji

Forum note: Gyani ji will be off-line over the weekend because of personal business. In the meantime try to refrain from personal challenges as he will not be able to respond.

Inder ji - Would you please provide us with some comments regarding your previous post number 75 above in which you have posted links to bhagat Kabir ji's shabad. It is not possible to grasp your intent or why you have posted them without your insights and commentary. Members would appreciate that.

Thank you,
Antonia


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

anthonia ji

My aim is not attack anyone personally. Discussion is issue based and not personality based. 

in this shabad on ang 971 , Bhagat ji is highlighting the merits of simran or meditation on God's naam.
He says that without simran one cann't get liberation from the clutches of maya.It is with simran that one gets the liberation. It is with simran that one gets in a state of bliss.

One gets elevated spiritually with simran and one should not never forget simran.With this simran one gets rid of any ailments. Bhagat advises that one should do that simran day and night, while sleeping and awake, while breathing and while eating.


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## spnadmin (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Inder ji,

Thanks for the clarifications. Actually I am inspired that you posted the article about Naam Mantra Jap. This can be understood as something that is broad, personal, and it gives us energy as well as requires energy from us. It has immediate life-changing results when we allow it because "jap" is taken within and is used to inform life and make it more ethical. Jap has a purpose -- to help us discover the Divine goodness within. It includes connection with the Divine in a very proactive way. Naam Mantra Jap as part of simran and as part of sadhana has a surgical and therefore an exact effect on the heart mind and soul. It requires direct focus upon the Naam of Hari, of Waheguru.  Individuals use a variety of mantras. The effect remains that of feeling the vibration of very sacred sounds within, which are taken within. Then the heart and mind and soul are fed.  And our inner ills are healed.


ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਪਸੂਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੫॥ 
kirath n mittee hukam n boojhai pasooaa maahi samaanaa ||5||
Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord's Command, they become beasts. ||5||

 
ਹਾਥ ਕਮੰਡਲੁ ਕਾਪੜੀਆ ਮਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਉਪਜੀ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ 
haathh kamanddal kaaparreeaa man thrisanaa oupajee bhaaree ||
With bowl in hand, wearing his patched coat, great desires well up in his mind.

 
 ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਤਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥ 
eisathree thaj kar kaam viaapiaa chith laaeiaa par naaree ||
Abandoning his own wife, he is engrossed in sexual desire; his thoughts are on the wives of others.

 
ਸਿਖ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੈ ਲੰਪਟੁ ਹੈ ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ॥ 
sikh karae kar sabadh n cheenai lanpatt hai baajaaree ||
He teaches and preaches, but does not contemplate the Shabad; he is bought and sold on the street.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਿਭਰਾਤੀ ਤਾ ਜਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਖੁਆਰੀ ॥੬॥ 
anthar bikh baahar nibharaathee thaa jam karae khuaaree ||6||
With poison within, he pretends to be free of doubt; he is ruined and humiliated by the Messenger of Death. ||6||

ਸੋ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ॥ 
so sanniaasee jo sathigur saevai vichahu aap gavaaeae ||
He alone is a Sannyaasi, who serves the True Guru, and removes his self-conceit from within.
 

ਛਾਦਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਕੀ ਆਸ ਨ ਕਰਈ ਅਚਿੰਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਏ ॥ 
shhaadhan bhojan kee aas n karee achinth milai so paaeae ||
He does not ask for clothes or food; without asking, he accepts whatever he receives.
 

ਬਕੈ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਖਿਮਾ ਧਨੁ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਨਾਮਿ ਜਲਾਏ ॥ 
bakai n bolai khimaa dhhan sangrehai thaamas naam jalaaeae ||
He does not speak empty words; he gathers in the wealth of tolerance, and burns away his anger with the Naam.
 

ਧਨੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥੭॥ 
dhhan girehee sanniaasee jogee j har charanee chith laaeae ||7||
Blessed is such a householder, Sannyaasi and Yogi, who focuses his consciousness on the Lord's feet. ||7||


ਆਸ ਨਿਰਾਸ ਰਹੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਏਕਸੁ ਸਿਉ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥ 
aas niraas rehai sanniaasee eaekas sio liv laaeae ||
Amidst hope, the Sannyaasi remains unmoved by hope; he remains lovingly focused on the One Lord.
 

 ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਾਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਏ ॥ 
har ras peevai thaa saath aavai nij ghar thaarree laaeae ||
He drinks in the sublime essence of the Lord, and so finds peace and tranquility; in the home of his own being, he remains absorbed in the deep trance of meditation.
 

ਮਨੂਆ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ 
manooaa n ddolai guramukh boojhai dhhaavath varaj rehaaeae ||
His mind does not waver; as Gurmukh, he understands. He restrains it from wandering out.


ਗ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਖੋਜੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੮॥ 
grihu sareer guramathee khojae naam padhaarathh paaeae ||8||
Following the Guru's Teachings, he searches the home of his body, and obtains the wealth of the Naam. ||8||
 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਸਰੇਸਟ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes saraesatt naam rathae veechaaree ||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are exalted, imbued with contemplative meditation on the Naam.
 

ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਗਗਨ ਪਤਾਲੀ ਜੰਤਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥ 
khaanee baanee gagan pathaalee janthaa joth thumaaree ||
The sources of creation, speech, the heavens and the underworld, all beings and creatures, are infused with Your Light.


ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ 
sabh sukh mukath naam dhhun baanee sach naam our dhhaaree ||
All comforts and liberation are found in the Naam, and the vibrations of the Guru's Bani; I have enshrined the True Name within my heart.

In all the conversation so far we have read that the purpose of naam simran is not to become a "sitting" comtemplative and to consider that the final state. But to permit Guru's grace to change us within the entire expanse of our lives and His creation. 

 ਧਨੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥੭॥ 
dhhan girehee sanniaasee jogee j har charanee chith laaeae ||7||
Blessed is such a householder, Sannyaasi and Yogi, who focuses his consciousness on the Lord's feet. ||7||


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



> In all the conversation so far we have read that the purpose of naam simran is not to become a "sitting" comtemplative and to consider that the final state. But to permit Guru's grace to change us within the entire expanse of our lives and His creation.



Aad ji

Nobody said that purpose of naam simran is* to sit in posture foreve*r. But one has to devote time on daily basis to sit and contemplate upon God's naam that we call  jap. God's grace does not come on its own. One has to make efforts in that direction and that effort starts with naam jap.Only sitting contemplative stage for sometime everyday  will lead us to final stage where it becomes ajapa jaaap.

Please read bandginama for help as you believe in that.


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## spnadmin (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

Inder ji

I have read Bandiginama about 6 times. But thank you.  Point of Gurbani is to become  better person, not a better sadhu. Goodness with Guru's grace leads to discovery of the GOODNESS WITHIN.  Goodness leads to GODLINESS.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Aad ji
> 
> Nobody said that purpose of naam simran is* to sit in posture foreve*r. But one has to devote time on daily basis to sit and contemplate upon God's naam that we call  jap. God's grace does not come on its own. One has to make efforts in that direction and that effort starts with naam jap.Only sitting contemplative stage for sometime everyday  will lead us to final stage where it becomes ajapa jaaap.
> 
> Please read bandginama for help as you believe in that.



Inder Ji,
Gurfateh.

Can you quote one complete shabd from sggs that gives even an approximate time thta must be spent SITTING DOWN daily in meditation/contemplation. ( ALL Shabads mention swaas swaas..saas grass, 24/7 atheh pehar etc..CONTINOUS...FOREVER.)
Maybe I missed the one that supports of your stated purpose of Naam simran.
Thanks in advance Ji.


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Inder Ji,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> Can you quote one complete shabd from sggs that gives even an approximate time thta must be spent SITTING DOWN daily in meditation/contemplation. ( ALL Shabads mention swaas swaas..saas grass, 24/7 atheh pehar etc..CONTINOUS...FOREVER.)
> ...



Giani ji

This simran with swass swass, gras and 24/7  is ajappa jap ( chant without unchanting) and means it has gone in your body system. This develops *only and only* if you practice it sitting in samadhi in the beginning and then on daily basis to sustain it. 

There is no time limit set. It all depends upon our deeds in  life and love towards akal purakh and total submission to Him thereby forsaking the cleverness of our mind.

experineced Gursikhs say that those who get in the stage of Ajappa jap( Very few) have this going on when lying unconscious on death bed.


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



aad0002 said:


> Inder ji
> 
> I have read Bandiginama about 6 times. But thank you.  Point of Gurbani is to become  better person, not a better sadhu. Goodness with Guru's grace leads to discovery of the GOODNESS WITHIN.  Goodness leads to GODLINESS.



To reach God is not the prerogative of only sikh religion. Other religions have their teachings as well. Sikhism teaches simpler way stressing that God can be realized while leading a householder's life. No one ever said that one has to renounce worldly life to  achieve realization.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> *To reach God is not the prerogative of only sikh religion*. Other religions have their teachings as well. Sikhism teaches simpler way stressing that God can be realized while leading a householder's life. No one ever said that one has to renounce worldly life to achieve realization.


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your statement in BOLD makes no sense from Sikhi view point. It may make sense to you from the Hindutva view point.

Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, hence in ALL without exception. So reaching Ik Ong Kaar is not part of Sikhi equation, it may be in Hindu philosophy as you happen to propagete it. In Shabad Hazere we chant and instill the following in our thought process daily:

*"Merei Lal jio, tera anth nah jaana. Tun JAL,THAL,MAHIAL- bhar bhur leena- Tun apei sarabh Samanah."*

*In other words, My beloved, no one knows your begining nor end ( because every begining has an end). You are in organic and in inorganic- in ALL, and You create yourself( which in Mool manter Guru Nanak describes as Ajuni Saibung).*

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*

http://www.sikhreview.org/june2000/naamology.htm*
*
*Discovery of Self through Naam-Simran*​ *Gulshan Jeet Singh**​ _* 5-Rampur Mandi Road, Dehradun-248001. U.P.
__Naam Simran_ is a purely spiritual experience within reach of all humanity irrespective of race creed on social status. Success varies and depends on the practitioner’s earnestness as well as the Master’s grace.
_Why we must practice ‘Naam simran’_? Because it brings inner tranquillity. This practice is superior to all other forms of worship. It is at the root of _Gurbani_. It places no restriction of time and space and does not need the help of any other person or material posture.Amongst all religious practices ‘_Naam-simran_’ is the simplest, a purifier for both mind and heart. It is like the all-pervasive light of the sun.
 ‘_Naam-simran_’ reins in the mind and intellect *(*_man aur budhi_*)* from within, order to understand the physical phenomenal word and transcend its wisdom. _Naam_ is the holiest of the holy; practice of _simran_ destroys the cause of our bondage, namely, our Karma (good or bad actions). Even the greatest sinner attains to the supreme position through _Naam-simran_. The only focus that one discovers by study of Guru Granth Sahib is that we must always and constantly meditate on Him and His Name. Just as the furnace melts gold and other metals so as to purify them, so the Name of the Lord acts as the best _solvent_ of all problems of this world. No evil can befall one who is engrossed in _Naam_.
 There are however some pitfalls. Sadly ‘_Naam-simran_’ has become a topic of discussion rather than of practice amongst our intellectuals. *Argument is the antithesis of meditation*. Efforts for conducting seminars on topic are merely intellectual exercises, missing the _Naam_ - _Amrit_ and initiation. 
*Internalising the Divine Spirit:* The word *‘*_Naam_’ is the object of _simran_ (meditation) whereas the word *‘*_Simran’_ is remembering, uttering, or _Jap_ in meditation. Thus ‘_Naam-simran_’ is remembrance of God’s _Name_. The question arises, what or whose name? The simple answer is _Satnaam_ Waheguru the name of True Wonderful Lord, who is All-pervading True and Eternal. The Lord is One Alone, Who Ever was, Is Now and Ever shall be, - the Akal Purukh, ‘Waheguru’. His name is True. Guru Nanak and successor Gurus, throughout the holy _Gurbani,_ maintain that one must contemplate upon formless God, Infinite God alone, Who is Creator, and dwells everywhere.
_"Life makes it opportune 
 To seek the glorious Divine
 The Divine is within and not without
 Properly attune-or One’s out".
_Guru Nanak: _Raag Prabhati_​ *"*_niralamb nirahar nehkewal nirbhav tadi lawai_*"* (....resting mind on the Self, Detached, Hungerless and Fearless God). In an answer to the Siddhas, Guru Nanak replies thus: *"*_antar bahar eko janai_*"* - focus the mind upon One Lord (who is One within and outward)
 Fix thy mind on the Enternal Being, the True _Purusha" sat-purkh akal murat ridai dharoh dhian"._
_"Ved puran jas gun gavat tako naam hiai mai dharre*".*_
 Guru Tegh Bahadar says, in _Raga Gaudi_. Enshrine yea His Name in thy heart Whose praise is sung by Vedas and Puranas".
 Guru Arjun : _Sukhmani Raag Gaudi._
_"naam ke dhare sagle jant-naam ke dhare khand brahmand_*,*
_Naam ke dhare sagal akar-naam ke dhare puria sabh bhavan."_
  Thy Name (the All Pervading Divine Spirit) is support of all beings, O Lord.
 Thy Name is the support of the worlds, verify the Universe.
 Thy Name is Support of all life forms.
 Yea, Thy Name is the support of all continents and spheres.
 The Tenth Master, Guru Govind Singh, defined the objective as follow :
_"tahi ko dhian parman hie jou tha, ab hai ar agai u jaiv hai_".
*A Slow Process* : We must understand that if our meagre and early practice of _‘Naam-simran’_ does not produce any earth-shaking result we should not lose patience. We should feel encouraged by the belief that the path has been found out, and it is only a question of time when we will reach our destination.
 There are some hymns which must necessarily be taken from the Guru Granth Sahib with the help of a pious friend, or elder or scholar - Granthi. The most popular technique is the repetition and daily reciting of _Gurbani_. ‘_Sat Naam’_ or ‘_Waheguru_’ is very powerful _jaap_; several practitioners reveal that without ‘_Satnm, Waheguru’_ the seeker cannot achieve his purpose. For the name and the object named are not different. When the heart is purified by the practice of Pranava, or _Dhun/Naad,_ the practice hears same sound. In the first stage, one feels a thrilling sensation in the skin, gradually passes through several stages to reach last and final (tenth) stage; that through devotion to Waheguru, the Self is known, and the difficulties are removed.
*Realisation Within:* By practicing *‘*_Naam-simran’_ the seeker of Truth, or Gursikh, comes to know the secret of _Gurbani_ within himself, in second to fourth stage he perceives the finer spring of words, hear cosmic (_Naad_) sound, next he starts loosening of worldly sense and at last stage the knowledge of Divine Self comes in full effulgence.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Discovery of Self through Naam-Simran
> 
> *Discovery of Self through Naam-Simran*
> 
> ...


 
The above article/essay is nothing but based on subjective reality- personal experience which can neither be transported to another nor can it be taught to another to experience.  The first paragraph shows its subjective nature:

*"Naam Simran is a purely spiritual experience within reach of all humanity irrespective of race creed on social status. Success varies and depends on the practitioner’s earnestness as well as the Master’s grace."*

*The above shows we have to blindly trust the writer as nothing he wrote can be verified in an objective manner.*

This is all contrary to the teachings of SGGS which are based on Objective reality. Hence, it has nothing to do with  Gurmat values but all to do with Bush's  values  " Trust me I know what I am talking about and I know what I am doing". And we know the rest of the story.

SGGS is a tool box which teaches us how to be become pragmatists so that we can objectively help all humanity irrespective of hue,creed or faith.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

> So reaching Ik Ong Kaar is not part of Sikhi equation, it may be in Hindu philosophy as you happen to propagete it.


Waheguru seeker ji

Nice to here from you. Waheguru is present in all of us. But we have to seek Waheguru within. That is why we are seekers.

Naam tat sabh hee sir jaapai.
The essence of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is known to be the most exalted and excellent of all. 

bin naavai dukh kaal santaapai.
Without the Name, one is afflicted by pain and death.

tato tat milai man maanai.
When one's essence merges into the essence, the mind is satisfied and fulfilled.

doojaa jaa-ay ikat ghar aanai.
Duality is gone, and one enters into the home of the One Lord.

bolai pavnaa gagan garjai.
The breath blows across the sky of the Tenth Gate and vibrates.

naanak nihchal milan sahjai. ||50||
O Nanak, the mortal then intuitively meets the eternal, unchanging Lord. ||50||


ang 943


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for correcting your earlier statement which is posted below and created falsehood in an  antiSikhi way.

Your earlier statement:



> To reach God is not the prerogative of only Sikh religion.


 


> Waheguru seeker ji
> 
> Nice to here from you. Waheguru is present in all of us. But we have to seek Waheguru within. That is why we are seekers.


 
Thanks for agreeing  that Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent  which mean in all,hence not away so, HE/SHE/IT has to be reached.

As requested before, please give us the meaning/interpretation of the Shabad in your own words rather than copying and pasting distorted version which insult Gurbani. You as a Sikh Scholar should know that.

So I ask you again to share your Gurmat wisdom regarding the following Shabad in your own words.

Thanks and looking forward to yoru sharing in your own words this Shabad and the other two you have copied and pasted the literal translations of. As mentioned many times before, literal translation is NOT the interpretation, hence one can not grasp the true meaning of the Shabads.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Naam tat sabh hee sir jaapai.
The essence of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is known to be the most exalted and excellent of all. 

bin naavai dukh kaal santaapai.
Without the Name, one is afflicted by pain and death.

tato tat milai man maanai.
When one's essence merges into the essence, the mind is satisfied and fulfilled.

doojaa jaa-ay ikat ghar aanai.
Duality is gone, and one enters into the home of the One Lord.

bolai pavnaa gagan garjai.
The breath blows across the sky of the Tenth Gate and vibrates.

naanak nihchal milan sahjai. ||50||
O Nanak, the mortal then intuitively meets the eternal, unchanging Lord. ||50||


ang 943


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

> Thanks for correcting your earlier statement which is posted below and created falsehood in an antiSikhi way.


 
Waheguruseeker ji

My statement was not one liner. The full statement is given below in bold.

quote

*To reach God is not the prerogative of only Sikh religion. Other religions have their teachings as well. Sikhism teaches simpler way stressing that God can be realized while leading a householder's life. No one ever said that one has to renounce worldly life to achieve realization*

*unquote*

It says that sikhism does not claim that only it has exclusive rights to reach God  and other religions are false.
Our Gurus have shown a simpler way to realize God while sitting at home and leading a householder's life. in other words we do not have to renounce a householder's life and go to forests to realize God.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Chauttah Pad: A spiritual life*



Inder singh said:


> Giani ji
> 
> This simran with swass swass, gras and 24/7  is ajappa jap ( chant without unchanting) and means it has gone in your body system. This develops *only and only* if you practice it sitting in samadhi in the beginning and then on daily basis to sustain it.
> 
> ...



Inder singh ji,
gurfateh.

Thats what intrigues...why have Guru Ji and all the other contributors of SGGS - gone straight to ADVANCED STAGE. NOT a single shabd on..HOW TO BEGIN ??
Why leave the Beginning..the METHODOLOGY..to "GUESS WORK"...and thats exactly waht the essays on nama japp are GUESS WORK by the Authors own experiences.

Guru nanak ji does say that even with Lakh jeebha..and times that by lakh..and mouthing repeating..wont help..its NOT ENOUGH. So imho we are taking the meaning wrong...
JUST like there are NO "LEARNING STAGES" to BREATHING/LEARNING TO BREATHE...the split second the babay comes OUT..he/she begins to BREATHE..  STRAIGHT TO ADVANCE STAGE...similarly GURBANI Has to be the LIVING EXPERIENCE..from day one..from Childhood we have to SPEAK TRUTH..live TRUTH..always TRUTH no matter if we lose our life for it...and so on..all the other qualities/attributes of Waheguru..LOVE all, humility, mithh bollnna...etc etc have to be Practised...then as we LIVE GURBANI..we do ajappa jaap..similar to BREATHING.

Thansk for the essay too.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Waheguruseeker ji
> 
> My statement was not one liner. The full statement is given below in bold.
> 
> ...


 

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Once again you are distorting your own statement. You did agree in your post in response to mine after I had objected to your initial distortion by letting you know that Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, hence does not need to be reached. Once that is accepted, then the rest would naturally fit in. Our Gurus never claimed that Sikhi is exclusive but all inclusive, so your point of argument becomes mute.

Secondly, life of Miri- Piri which includes grasthi does not require for us to SIT at home and parrot some magic words as you have insisted all along. Parroting is parroting whether one sits at home and does it or one does it in the forest because it is done alone whereas Sikhi requires active participation of all. "Mil Sadh Sangat, bhaj keval Naam".

The idea of grasthi is to follow the teachings of SGGS by studying and understanding them so that we can breed goodness within and hence interact and chip in the world in a fruitful manner, which is totally contrary to your concept of parroting which is a Hindu mentality that you have been trying so hard to introduce in this beautiful pragmatic life of Miri- Piri of Sikhi and with the grace of Ik Ong Kaar has not been successful and never will be.

Your above posted essay does the same which is totally against the teachings of SGGS.I wish you would read and study the things before posting them, just to check if they pass our benchmark which is SGGS- our ONLY GURU.

Tejwant Singh

ps: I am still waiting for your Gurmat enlightenment by interpretating the Shabads  in your own words that you have copied and pasted in the forum.


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

> we do ajappa jaap..similar to BREATHING.



Giani ji

Gurbani says about jaap on each and every ang of SGGS ji. Gurbani talks about chautha pad or dasam duar. When one one takes Amrit , panj piaras give us Gurmantra and ask us to do simran on that. I find strange when some Amritdhari sikhs deny this.

Regarding ajapa jap,You do not have to do anything for ajappa jap.It is unchanted chant. 

Ajpw jwpu n vIsrY Awid jugwid smwie ] (1291-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)
ajpaa jaap na veesrai aad jugaad samaa-ay.
It does not forget the Chant which is chanted without chanting; it is immersed in the Primal Lord God of the ages.

siB sKIAw pMcy imly gurmuiK inj Gir vwsu ] (1291-5, mlwr, mÚ 1)
sabh sakhee-aa panchay milay gurmukh nij ghar vaas.


Upon becoming a Gurmukh (spiritual being), all the sensese are blessed with the five virtues, and one dwells in the Home of the Self deep within
ang 1291

Please share with us what type of ajapa jap you are experiencing as you seem to be lucky to get to that satge without effort.


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## Inder singh (Jun 20, 2009)

,




> by letting you know that Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, hence does not need to be reached.


Waheguruseeker ji

If Akal purakh is not reachable then you may need to change your title of waheguru seeker. 




> The idea of grasthi is to follow the teachings of SGGS by studying and understanding them so that we can breed goodness within and hence interact and chip in the world in a fruitful manner


Are you saying that those who cann't read Guru Granth sahib ji cann't realize akal purakh. 



> Secondly, life of Miri- Piri which includes grasthi does not require for us to SIT at home and parrot some magic words----------
> 
> 
> which is totally contrary to your concept of parroting which is a Hindu mentality that you have been trying so hard to introduce in this beautiful pragmatic life of Miri- Piri of Sikhi and with the grace of Ik Ong Kaar has not been successful and never will be


I hope you abide by Sikh rehat maryada. that states

quote

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

[SIZE=-1]1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three                          hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her                          thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru                          (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).[/SIZE]

unquote

 Now Jaap of gurmantra has become Hindu way for you. That means we have to change our Gurbani and Sikh rehat maryada. Have you got a different maryada?If so, Please share that maryada with us. otherwise accept what is there and stop misleading people.

Gurnmantar is very much a sikh way. Only ignorants claim it otherwise without knowing the teachings of guru granth sahib.

clq bYsq sovq jwgq gur mMqRü irdY icqwir ] (1006-19, mwrU, mÚ 5)
chalat baisat sovat jaagat gur mantar ridai chitaar.
While walking and sitting, sleeping and waking, contemplate within your heart the GurMantra.


Then Guru ji writes 



gur mMqR hIxs´ jo pRwxI iDRgMq jnm BRstxh ] (1356-18, shsik®qI, mÚ 5)
gur mantar heensa-y jo paraanee Dharigant janam bharsatnah.
That mortal who lacks the Guru's Mantra - cursed and contaminated is his life.
kUkrh sUkrh grDBh kwkh srpnh quil Klh ]33] (1356-18, shsik®qI, mÚ 5)
kookrah sookrah garaDh-bheh kaakah sarapneh tul khalah. ||33||
That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake. ||33|

ang 1356


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Gurfateh
Chutha Pad in the opinion of das is state of rising above the three qualities enthused by mammon. But it could not not be obtained by self actions. Only mercy of Akal could get us this.Akal Bless.


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> Chutha Pad in the opinion of das is state of rising above the three qualities enthused by mammon. But it could not not be obtained by self actions. Only mercy of Akal could get us this.Akal Bless.



Everything is in God's will. His grace is showered on those who deserve it. So without efforts there is no Grace.


nwim smwvY jo Bwfw hoie ] (158-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 3)
naam samaavai jo bhaadaa ho-ay.
The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is collected in the vessel of the mind.


aUNDY BWfY itkY n koie ] (158-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 3)
ooNDhai bhaaNdai tikai na ko-ay.
Nothing is collected if the vessel is upside-down.


gur sbdI min nwim invwsu ] (158-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 3)
gur sabdee man naam nivaas.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Naam abides within the mind.


nwnk scu BWfw ijsu sbd ipAws ]4]3]23] (158-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 3)
naanak sach bhaaNdaa jis sabad pi-aas. ||4||3||23||
O Nanak, True is that vessel of the mind, which thirsts for the Shabad.

ang 158


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> ,
> 
> 
> Waheguruseeker ji
> ...



Inder Singh ji

Please be warned that it is not acceptable to back up charges against another member with a bit of Gurbani to make your point. You are not in this instance using Gurbani shabads to illustrate your argument, you are using part of a shabad to insult another member. It is disrespectful both to the member and to Guruji to do this. 

I anticipate your remonstrances against me. You will say that this is favoritism. Keep in mind that my favorite of all is Guruji and He and His voice is not to be used as a hockey puck hit hard to punish the opposition. You have made your point in  your own words. Do not do this again.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Gurfateh

Efforts too are in control of God. If they are deemed to be our hands then we are in Sato Guna and not in Chautha Pad.
ਪੰਨਾ 749, ਸਤਰ 8
ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭੁਗਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਇਹਿ ॥
मुकति भुगति जुगति तेरी सेवा जिसु तूं आपि कराइहि ॥
Mukaṯ bẖugaṯ jugaṯ ṯerī sevā jis ṯūŉ āp karā▫ihi.
Liberation, comfort and proper lifestyle come from serving You; You alone cause us to serve You.
ਮਃ 5   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Inder Singh ji
> 
> Please be warned that it is not acceptable to back up charges against another member with a bit of Gurbani to make your point. You are not in this instance using Gurbani shabads to illustrate your argument, you are using part of a shabad to insult another member. It is disrespectful both to the member and to Guruji to do this.
> 
> I anticipate your remonstrances against me. You will say that this is favoritism. Keep in mind that my favorite of all is Guruji and He and His voice is not to be used as a hockey puck hit hard to punish the opposition. You have made your point in  your own words. Do not do this again.



aad ji 

Will you warn the other member not to use bullying language and conduct in debate in a civilized manner.I am yet to see that initiative from your end. Countless other psoters cite one liner or two liners from shabads. Are the rules separate for them?

Be careful not to term gurbani shabds against  anyone. That is not my intention. The shabads are quoted to suit to topic under discusssion.


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

Inder ji

Please read my warning again carefully. If you want to take the time to do so, please point out the bullying of "the other" person/s. You can do this by private message so as not to disrupt the flow or engage in personal hostilities. If I am off line I may not be able to respond immediately. Apologies for that.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

IMHO..the "uneducated", "illeterate", "blind". "deaf" "dumb" the " deaf+blind+dumb..."...the illeterate deaf dumb blind...the deafdumbmute and uneducated..etc etc are the MINORITIES...and Waheguru Takes care of these..as is declared in Asa ki vaar..if an educated one sins...an uneducated one wont be punished in hsi place...this is ebcasue Waheguru KNOWS ALL..unlike human judges who may indeed punish the wrong person. SO HOW the deafdumbmuteblind is going to be able to BENEFIT from GURBANI..is Waheguru jis responsibility..
FOR the REST of US..there is SGGS..written to be READ, Listened to, Vicharred, and followed.
I Find it UTTER RUBBISH when i read comments like.." So..an uneducated person ?? How is he going to vichaar Gurbani..??? How a blind person is to read Gurbani..how a deaf one is going to listen to Gurbani..etc etc. How  mental patient, mad person..blah blah blah...
GURU JI WROTE 1429 Pages..a HUGE GRANTH...for WHAT ?? clear answer ..it is for the MAJORITY..who can hear, see, talk, think...and IMHO EACH POSTER WRITING on SPN has eyes, ears, mouth, tongue, knows English and can type, knows about computers...so we are part of THAT MAJORITY..and NOT the tiny minority that is deaf mute dumb blind mentally challenged etc etc.

Gurbani clearly declares..THE ones the WORLD Calls "BLIND" ( becasue their eyes are damaged ) are NOT THE REALLY BLIND...the ones REALLY BLIND are those who have 20/20 Viison, PERFECT EYES...BUT REFUSE TO SEE..refuse to open those 20/20 eyes !!! Those blind die to eye damage are WAHEGURU jis RESPONSIBILITY..we with perfect viision are on our OWN. OPEN the Guru Given EYES and see the TRUTH..the writing on the WALL. Dont bring in the visually impaired, mentally challenged etc as your backup !!

2. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE..between UNREACHABLE....and OMNIPRESCENT...
One is that CANNOT BE REACHED...The other is HE IS EVERYWHERE...NO NEED TO REACH/FIND/LOOK for HIM...just "open your eyes and SEE HIM"..there He is RIGHT INSIDE OF YOU...seek and you shall FIND...no need to travel....anywhere....He is not far..he is WITHIN.

Keep in Chardeekalla and cool always..it helps.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Waheguruseeker ji
> 
> If Akal purakh is not reachable then you may need to change your title of waheguru seeker.



Your earlier statement which is posted below contradicts the above one. 



> Waheguru  seeker ji
> 
> Nice to here from you. Waheguru is present in all of us. But we  have to seek Waheguru within. That is why we are seekers.



Yes, I agree with your above statement that we all have to seek Ik Ong Kaar within because HE/SHE/IT is omnipresent, hence in all and everywhere. So, no need to reach HIM/HER/IT because Ik Ong Kaar is NOT out of reach as you had mentioned earlier.

Now you know that  all of us seek Ik Ong Kaar within, so my name is very fitting to that.I have no idea why you want me to change it.  But thanks for the suggestion anyway. I do appreciate it as you have always claimed to know more about others than about yourself.

I know you are known to contradict yourself many a times which does not surprise me about your self  created confusion.





> Are you saying that those who cann't read Guru Granth sahib ji cann't realize akal purakh.



I have never said that. How dare I play Ik Ong Kaar? I know you tend to do that quite often. Let me say again the same thing I have mentioned many times to you before in this forum that only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. Neither you, nor me, nor anyone else can find that out, no matter how much we try to pretend to play Ik Ong Kaar, out of sheer ignorance laced with lots of arrogance.



> I hope you abide by Sikh rehat maryada. that states
> 
> Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India
> 
> [SIZE=-1]1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three                          hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her                          thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru                          (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).[/SIZE]



You have mentioned many times before that you put more credence to Manmat than Gurmat. SRM is written by men which has lots of flaws and can be changed anytime and it should be changed with the modern times and more understanding of SGGS. In fact I wrote about SRM in this forum. Please feel free to search it and read it and let me know your thoughts about it.

SGGS is"Dhur ki Baani" which is Gurmat and can NEVER be changed by anyone.

So, anything in SRM that contradicts SGGS and its Gurmat values is Manmat for Sikhi. I thought you knew that.

To answer your question, I only abide by what SGGS, our ONLY GURU tells us.

Now your above quote from SRM regarding waking up 3 hours before dawn makes no sense, hence is antiGurmat. Our body needs rest so that it can be put to work and perform at its optimum capacity when awake. Our Gurus knew that. They never interfered with the laws of nature. There is also another thread on Amrit Vela in this forum. Please feel free to read and study it.



> Now Jaap of gurmantra has become Hindu way for you. That means we have to change our Gurbani and Sikh rehat maryada. Have you got a different maryada?If so, Please share that maryada with us. otherwise accept what is there and stop misleading people.



Your parroting what you call Jaap is Hindutva which you have been trying to inroduce into Sikhi for a long time and have not been successful and never will. Yes, we  have to change SRM as mentioned before. Nothing wrong with improving ourself. Is there?



> Gurnmantar is very much a sikh way. Only ignorants claim it otherwise without knowing the teachings of guru granth sahib.



I have asked you many times to specify from SGGS what Gurmantar is. Just repeating the same word without giving us its meaning makes no sense. I have no idea why you have been reluctant to explaining Gurmantar in your own words rather than copying and pasting few lines from the internet. It serves no purpose but shows parroting.

I have also requested you several times that when you post a few lines from a Shabad, please post the whole Shabad and while doing so, please share the meanings in your own words so we can all understand how the particular Shabad has affected you or influenced you on the personal level.

So far you have refused to do so for the reasons only known to you.

So, I request you again to repost the previous Shabads and the ones below and explain to us in your own words so we can all learn from each other.


Thanks and looking forward to reading your own interpretation of the Shabads.

Tejwant Singh

clq bYsq sovq jwgq gur mMqRü irdY icqwir ] (1006-19, mwrU, mÚ 5)
chalat baisat sovat jaagat gur mantar ridai chitaar.
While walking and sitting, sleeping and waking, contemplate within your heart the GurMantra.


Then Guru ji writes 



gur mMqR hIxs´ jo pRwxI iDRgMq jnm BRstxh ] (1356-18, shsik®qI, mÚ 5)
gur mantar heensa-y jo paraanee Dharigant janam bharsatnah.
That mortal who lacks the Guru's Mantra - cursed and contaminated is his life.
kUkrh sUkrh grDBh kwkh srpnh quil Klh ]33] (1356-18, shsik®qI, mÚ 5)
kookrah sookrah garaDh-bheh kaakah sarapneh tul khalah. ||33||
That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake. ||33|

ang 1356
[/quote]


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

> Now your above quote from SRM regarding waking up 3 hours before dawn makes no sense


 
Read below before making useless claims. You need not to wake up as you are not believer in sikh rehat maryada. 

gur siqgur kw jo isKu AKwey su Blky auiT hir nwmu iDAwvY ] (305-16, gauVI, mÚ 4)
gur satgur kaa jo sikh akhaa-ay so bhalkay uth har naam Dhi-aavai.
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.
 
audmu kry Blky prBwqI iesnwnu kry AMimRq sir nwvY ] (305-17, gauVI, mÚ 4)
udam karay bhalkay parbhaatee isnaan karay amrit sar naavai.
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.
 
aupdyis gurU hir hir jpu jwpY siB iklivK pwp doK lih jwvY ] (305-18, gauVI, mÚ 4)
updays guroo har har jap jaapai sabh kilvikh paap dokh leh jaavai.
Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.
 
iPir cVY idvsu gurbwxI gwvY bhidAw auTidAw hir nwmu iDAwvY ] (305-18, gauVI, mÚ 4)
fir charhai divas gurbaanee gaavai bahdi-aa uth-di-aa har naam Dhi-aavai.
Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.
 
jo swis igrwis iDAwey myrw hir hir so gurisKu gurU min BwvY ] (305-19, gauVI, mÚ 4)
jo saas giraas Dhi-aa-ay mayraa har har so gursikh guroo man bhaavai.
One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.

ang 305
 
Guru Granth sahib stresses the need for having Gurmantra. I had quoted the verse which seem to have upset some of you. Sikhs have their gurmantra Waheguru and that is mentioned in SRM. Read below about this word in SGGS ji
)
vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
 
kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ] (1402-12, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
kaval nain maDhur bain kot sain sang sobh kahat maa jasod jisahi dahee bhaat khaahi jee-o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.
 
dyiK rUpu Aiq AnUpu moh mhw mg BeI ikMknI sbd Jnqkwr Kylu pwih jIau ] (1402-13, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
daykh roop at anoop moh mahaa mag bha-ee kinknee sabad jhanatkaar khayl paahi jee-o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.
 
kwl klm hukmu hwiQ khhu kaunu myit skY eIsu bMm´ü g´wnu D´wnu Drq hIAY cwih jIau ] (1402-14, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
kaal kalam hukam haath kahhu ka-un mayt sakai ees bamm-yu ga-yaan Dhayaan Dharat hee-ai chaahi jee-o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.
 
siq swcu sRI invwsu Awid purKu sdw quhI vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU vwih jIau ]1]6] (1402-14, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
sat saach saree nivaas aad purakh sadaa tuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o. ||1||6||

You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||
rwm nwm prm Dwm suD buD inrIkwr bysumwr srbr kau kwih jIau ] (1402-15, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)

raam naam param Dhaam suDh buDh nireekaar baysumaar sarbar ka-o kaahi jee-o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?
 
suQr icq Bgq ihq ByKu DirE hrnwKsu hirE nK ibdwir jIau ] (1402-16, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
suthar chit bhagat hit bhaykh Dhari-o harnaakhas hari-o nakh bidaar jee-o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.
 
sMK ck® gdw pdm Awip Awpu kIE Cdm AprMpr pwrbRhm lKY kaunu qwih jIau ] (1402-17, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
sankh chakar gadaa padam aap aap kee-o chhadam aprampar paarbarahm lakhai ka-un taahi jee-o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power, You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?
 
siq swcu sRI invwsu Awid purKu sdw quhI vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU vwih jIau ]2]7] (1402-18, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
sat saach saree nivaas aad purakh sadaa tuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||
 
ang 1402

Gurmantra is given by panj piaras when a sikh get khande bate di pahul. What gurmantra was given to you when you were adminitered pahul?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 22, 2009)

Dear All,

I have followed this debate which IMHO is not serving any educational/spiritual purpose and has become redundant.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Comments on* Chautha Pad* *: A Spiritual Life* and why it has become mundane and lifeless.

The main objective of SPN is to create a desire in all the members from all walks of life, from any hue,creed or faith to learn about themselves. In order to learn about ourselves we should have the avenue where we can peel ourselves bit by bit so that eventually our innerself burst itself open and we can come out of our self built cocoons with our heads high because the change is coming. SPN provides this kind of avenue. Others may do that too but they are not as open to people from all faiths as SPN is.

Chautha Pad is a spiritual level which is a personal journey of a Sikh. It is like the Gurbani says, Gungei ki Mithai- in other words, when a mute and deaf person eats his/her favourite candy, he/she can only describe it through the facial expressions. No words can describe that. Same thing goes for the Chautha pad. When people start giving their own recipes from their own books rather than from our only recipe book which is SGGS, then things turn into Me-ism rather than One-ism, the only ONE we want to seek.

Ajmer Singh ji and Inder Singh ji who are good Sikhs are simply wrong in their thinking when they try to impose their way about something that is created as an internal manifestation with the help of our only GURU- SGGS.

Our Spiritual endeavour is the journey of the individual and one can only have this journey if one is on the "Soul Train " whose only engine is SGGS.

SRM contradicts many of the things in SGGS hence it needs to be modified.

The last 2 Shabads given by Inder Singh ji is to prove that a Sikh should get up 3 hours before dawn as dictated by SRM and the second one he claims has Gurmanter are contrary to both of his claims. 

Both have different meanings according to me. The first one on Panna 305 has no reference of that time era which is in SRM about getting up 3 hours before dawn. It makes no sense to go against the nature. Our Gurus never did that. We as humans can not be deprived from the necessary sleep that the body requires. Yes, when we get up early, which we should,we can plan our day in a more fruitful manner and hence we have more time to breed goodness within. A Sikh starts his/her day book when he/she gets up and closes it after reciting Sohila at night.This is the common sense that our Gurus taught us through SGGS,our ONLY GURU.

The second Shabad on Panna 1402.which Inder Singh ji gave to prove Gurmantra is also misleading. I have requested him many a times that when he copies and posts any Shabads in full, he should also give us his interpretation, the message he gets from the Shabad. As the Sadh Sangat may have noticed, it has not happened so far. There could be several reasons for that. Some come to mind and I may be wrong, either he does not understand what is being said by our Gurus or if he does then whatever the true message is may go against his own self created beliefs based on something else than SGGS, our ONLY GURU. I hope I am wrong in my assessement and if I am, I will apologise to him in the forum. The only way to check that is when he gives us in his own words what he understands from the message of our Gurus given to us in SGGS- our ONLY GURU.

The second Shabad he claimed to have Gurmanter is also his misconception. The second Shabad talks about the WOW! and the AWE! factor of Ik Ong Kaar in details. Vaheeguru as mentioned in the Shabad means," I am WOWED by YOUR creation, my Ik Ong Kaar". It shows us how our Gurus were in awe with all that surrounds us and gave it a beautiful poetic way to express it.

In closing, I would urge all to seek your own journey on this "Soul Train" whose only engine is SGGS and find your own seat the way you feel comfortable and have a blast. You will enjoy every moment of it.

Tejwant Singh
*
Forum Members - The thread is now closed. *aad0002


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