# Questions From A Non-sikh



## HFTarasque (Mar 23, 2015)

Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.

As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master).  I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma.  So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me.  None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.




 

1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile.  Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure, and the same can be said for the soul.  Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth.  Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand.  The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue.  How can I resolve this conflict?



2. Scriptures are obviously very important to Sikhs, as the SGGSJ forms the foundation for Sikhi.  My question regarding this is, why is reading the Bani repeatedly so important?  Is kirtan more beneficial than to practice simran and meditation on the atman inside?  I can understand reading it for understanding, and of course reading scriptures at different times in our lives, we will receive different lessons.  But is inward meditation not more valuable, provided it is done with a proper spiritual understanding?



3. As I am young and come from the West (I am only 18), I have certain Western values which I find hard to reconcile with both Sikhism and Buddhism, even though I may find the religion very appealing.  Specifically, I feel very strongly about gender equality, and that differences between men and women are almost entirely (if not entirely) cultural rather than biological or spiritual in nature.  This means that I am a strong advocate of homosexual rights, gay marriage, and transgender rights.  I realize that Sikhi has done a lot to stand up for many of these things, but at the same time, I see that homosexuals are not allowed to be married with the Anand Karaj.  As a Westerner, this seems to be the same religious dogmatism that I tried to escape when I left Christianity, but maybe I am misunderstanding it.



4. Marriages.  As far as I understand, Sikhs do not condone love marriages, and instead practice arranged marriages.  What is the harm in a love marriage, or in dating?  Again I realize I come from a Western perspective, but I fail to see how these things are harmful to your spirituality.  If all of your energy is focused on finding a partner, or on sexual promiscuity, or the like, I can definitely understand it.  Also, why can an inter-faith marriage not be done with the Anand Karaj?  If a Sikh wants to marry a non-Sikh, isn't that their choice?  And if they want to do the marriage the Sikh way, is that not displaying the proper respect to Sikhi?  For a long time, I dated a Muslim girl and we planned to be married.  Sadly that didn't happen, but I can't imagine missing out on someone who may be the love of my life, because I am limited to only marrying someone of my religion.



5.  Again as far as I understand, Guru Nanak Ji shunned religious labels.  He stated "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim."  So therefore, why have his teachings started a religion?  This is something I haven't been able to find much discussion about, and I am quite curious about it.  Has Sikhism fallen prey to the same dogmatism that he taught against?



6. The SGGSJ was named as the last Guru for the Sikhs.  Does this mean there will never be another Guru?  What about when we move out of Kal Yug and into the next age, will there be another succession of Gurus?



I'm sorry for the long list of questions.  I look forward to hearing your responses.  Thank you.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.



Hello and welcome to the forum



HFTarasque said:


> As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi



your in good company, that is what we are doing here too!



HFTarasque said:


> as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master)



what is a human master?



HFTarasque said:


> I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma.



not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation and karma, and not all Sikhs believe in 'Goddie' with his flowing beard and wise eyes. 


HFTarasque said:


> So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me.



Hmmmm what you will end up with is a nice debate where we all learn from each other, I can answer questions but only from my own viewpoint. There are many views on this forum, and it is the richer for them. 


HFTarasque said:


> None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs



pity, I like questions that challenge my beliefs



HFTarasque said:


> 1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar,



I think they are not, I think they have as much in common as a Range Rover and a BMW X5.


HFTarasque said:


> but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile. Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure, and the same can be said for the soul. Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth. Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand. The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue. How can I resolve this conflict?



I reject the idea that the ultimate purpose of Sikhism is to merge with Goddie and then reach Sachkhand, I mean what sort of religion is it that has that as its number one aim? it does not even make any sense, we are already merged with god, and I dont even know where Sachkhand is. As for Nirvana, not really interested. 



HFTarasque said:


> 2. Scriptures are obviously very important to Sikhs, as the SGGSJ forms the foundation for Sikhi. My question regarding this is, why is reading the Bani repeatedly so important? Is kirtan more beneficial than to practice simran and meditation on the atman inside? I can understand reading it for understanding, and of course reading scriptures at different times in our lives, we will receive different lessons. But is inward meditation not more valuable, provided it is done with a proper spiritual understanding?



your on the right track! why is mumbling bani so important.....



HFTarasque said:


> 3. As I am young and come from the West (I am only 18), I have certain Western values which I find hard to reconcile with both Sikhism and Buddhism, even though I may find the religion very appealing. Specifically, I feel very strongly about gender equality, and that differences between men and women are almost entirely (if not entirely) cultural rather than biological or spiritual in nature. This means that I am a strong advocate of homosexual rights, gay marriage, and transgender rights



Personally I am a strong advocate of rights for all, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. 


HFTarasque said:


> I realize that Sikhi has done a lot to stand up for many of these things, but at the same time, I see that homosexuals are not allowed to be married with the Anand Karaj



Strictly speaking I would imagine 99% of all weddings under Anand Karaj should not really happen, due to the spiritual or lack of state of the parties involved. This is a cultural thing, it has nothing to do with Sikhism. 


HFTarasque said:


> As a Westerner, this seems to be the same religious dogmatism that I tried to escape when I left Christianity, but maybe I am misunderstanding it.



no your understanding it fine, Sikhism has the same corrupt influences and agendas that all religions have, for me it helps to think of Sikhism as a way of life rather than a religion. 


HFTarasque said:


> 4. Marriages. As far as I understand, Sikhs do not condone love marriages, and instead practice arranged marriages. What is the harm in a love marriage, or in dating? Again I realize I come from a Western perspective, but I fail to see how these things are harmful to your spirituality. If all of your energy is focused on finding a partner, or on sexual promiscuity, or the like, I can definitely understand it. Also, why can an inter-faith marriage not be done with the Anand Karaj? If a Sikh wants to marry a non-Sikh, isn't that their choice? And if they want to do the marriage the Sikh way, is that not displaying the proper respect to Sikhi? For a long time, I dated a Muslim girl and we planned to be married. Sadly that didn't happen, but I can't imagine missing out on someone who may be the love of my life, because I am limited to only marrying someone of my religion.



Well there are reasons why you are limited to marrying someone of Sikhism, if you intend to have Anand Karaj, it is a marriage between you, your partner, and the universe, if your partner is not a Sikh, that will make this union harder. A Sikh puts their connection with the universe higher than a connection with a partner, so through your joint connection with the universe, you are also connected to each other. 

Having said that, if you want a love marriage, no problem, the problems you state are cultural ones. 


HFTarasque said:


> 5. Again as far as I understand, Guru Nanak Ji shunned religious labels. He stated "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim." So therefore, why have his teachings started a religion? This is something I haven't been able to find much discussion about, and I am quite curious about it. Has Sikhism fallen prey to the same dogmatism that he taught against?



yes....



HFTarasque said:


> 6. The SGGSJ was named as the last Guru for the Sikhs. Does this mean there will never be another Guru? What about when we move out of Kal Yug and into the next age, will there be another succession of Gurus?



sorry I do not know what Kal Yug is, whatever it is, it sounds quite Vedic!

the above is my own opinion only, please do not take it as definitive Sikhism, good luck


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## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

Original said:


> Let life be your Guru and when the time is right and you've riped, Nanak will find you.



how does Nanak find you?


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## Original (Mar 23, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





harry haller said:


> how does Nanak find you?



He already has - SPN !


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## HFTarasque (Mar 23, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum
> your in good company, that is what we are doing here too!


Thank you!  


> what is a human master?


I was introduced to Sikhi through the talks of Ishwar Puri, who is a Radha Soami.  He speaks about the initiation of a perfect living master, a satguru, being necessary to reach Sach Khand.  This is a teaching I struggle with quite a lot.



> not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation and karma, and not all Sikhs believe in 'Goddie' with his flowing beard and wise eyes.


Really?  I was under the impression that reincarnation and karma are quite important teachings in Sikhi.



> pity, I like questions that challenge my beliefs


Well if you would like me to ask some tougher and more direct questions, I'm sure I can think of some.



> I think they are not, I think they have as much in common as a Range Rover and a BMW X5.


What do you see that is so different between them?



> I reject the idea that the ultimate purpose of Sikhism is to merge with Goddie and then reach Sachkhand, I mean what sort of religion is it that has that as its number one aim? it does not even make any sense, we are already merged with god, and I dont even know where Sachkhand is. As for Nirvana, not really interested.


Then what is the aim of religion?  Specifically, what is the aim of Sikhi?  It seems like you've ruled out most of the possibilities in your post here.



> Personally I am a strong advocate of rights for all, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.


That is good to hear.



> Strictly speaking I would imagine 99% of all weddings under Anand Karaj should not really happen, due to the spiritual or lack of state of the parties involved. This is a cultural thing, it has nothing to do with Sikhism.


Then why is marriage so encouraged within Sikhi?  And why is the Anand Karaj so restricted?



> no your understanding it fine, Sikhism has the same corrupt influences and agendas that all religions have, for me it helps to think of Sikhism as a way of life rather than a religion.


This is the first time I've heard someone say this.  It seems your views of Sikhi are quite unorthodox.  Would you mind explaining this some?  I'd really like to hear all sides of this.



> sorry I do not know what Kal Yug is, whatever it is, it sounds quite Vedic!
> 
> the above is my own opinion only, please do not take it as definitive Sikhism, good luck


Kal Yug is, as I understand it, the age of darkness.  I.E. the present time, when people are most spiritually ignorant.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> was introduced to Sikhi through the talks of Ishwar Puri, who is a Radha Soami. He speaks about the initiation of a perfect living master, a satguru, being necessary to reach Sach Khand. This is a teaching I struggle with quite a lot.



I tend to drop things I am struggling with, I am not an arrogant person, but I would rather find my own way with the help of friends and associates, than put my trust in some babaji. 


HFTarasque said:


> Really? I was under the impression that reincarnation and karma are quite important teachings in Sikhi.


There are many Sikhs that do not believe in such, there are some good threads on the subject here on this forum, I will find the links and paste them here for you


HFTarasque said:


> Well if you would like me to ask some tougher and more direct questions, I'm sure I can think of some.


Please do, it will stretch both of our mental thinking


HFTarasque said:


> What do you see that is so different between them?


Buddhism is about finding enlightenment, Sikhism is just about living, in the real world, with real problems,


HFTarasque said:


> Then what is the aim of religion? Specifically, what is the aim of Sikhi? It seems like you've ruled out most of the possibilities in your post here.


The aim of Sikhism is to find heaven on earth during your lifespan, by being connected to the universe, and by being a slave to creation, with no carrot, with no stick, and with no thought of reward.It is about an attitude, a way of thinking. Heaven sitting next to beardie does not come into it. 

I guess the aim of most religion is to control, Sikhi's aim is to liberate, to help you wash away the false filters that you see life through, till you see the truth. 


HFTarasque said:


> hen why is marriage so encouraged within Sikhi? And why is the Anand Karaj so restricted?


The idea is that a couple should be ready for Anand Karaj, rather than see it as 'something before the booze'


HFTarasque said:


> This is the first time I've heard someone say this. It seems your views of Sikhi are quite unorthodox. Would you mind explaining this some? I'd really like to hear all sides of this.


well, if someone were to call me religious, I would probably be quite offended, I know religious people, they mumble a lot, and take part in weird ceremonies, and then mumble a bit more, maybe with candles, they tackle problems in life with more mumbling, or sometimes they pay people to mumble for them, I am not a religious person. 


HFTarasque said:


> al Yug is, as I understand it, the age of darkness. I.E. the present time, when people are most spiritually ignorant.


Oh yeah Kalyug, the dark time, well this is certainly a dark time, yes, very dark, the sun is shinning, I have a full belly, I had a stent fitted to my heart a few weeks ago, has worked wonders, I have heating in my house! 

Just to remind you that back in the days before Kalyug, Muslim soldiers were marching down streets with Sikh heads on spears, I wonder what they called that time.............

As for most people being spiritually ignorant, with the advent of the internet, I would have said the opposite.


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## HFTarasque (Mar 23, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I tend to drop things I am struggling with, I am not an arrogant person, but I would rather find my own way with the help of friends and associates, than put my trust in some babaji.


I would tend to agree.



> Please do, it will stretch both of our mental thinking


Perhaps some such questions will come out of our discussion.



> Buddhism is about finding enlightenment, Sikhism is just about living, in the real world, with real problems,


You think that Sikhism is not about enlightenment?  Then why do you follow it?



> The aim of Sikhism is to find heaven on earth during your lifespan, by being connected to the universe, and by being a slave to creation, with no carrot, with no stick, and with no thought of reward.It is about an attitude, a way of thinking. Heaven sitting next to beardie does not come into it.


This sounds like what I was saying.  I never depicted sach khand or nirvana as a heaven-like place.  That's a very Abrahamic view of it and something I personally don't believe at all.



> I guess the aim of most religion is to control, Sikhi's aim is to liberate, to help you wash away the false filters that you see life through, till you see the truth


So things like the strict code of conduct are not controlling?



> The idea is that a couple should be ready for Anand Karaj, rather than see it as 'something before the booze'


The same goes for any form of marriage.



> well, if someone were to call me religious, I would probably be quite offended, I know religious people, they mumble a lot, and take part in weird ceremonies, and then mumble a bit more, maybe with candles, they tackle problems in life with more mumbling, or sometimes they pay people to mumble for them, I am not a religious person.


But you do consider yourself Sikh, no?



> Oh yeah Kalyug, the dark time, well this is certainly a dark time, yes, very dark, the sun is shinning, I have a full belly, I had a stent fitted to my heart a few weeks ago, has worked wonders, I have heating in my house!


I think that's exactly what it refers to.  In your satisfaction with the material world, you are turning your back on spiritual matters.  We are spiritually ignorant, and I think that's why we have such dogmatic controlling religions in the world today.  They both approach it from the wrong direction.



> Just to remind you that back in the days before Kalyug, Muslim soldiers were marching down streets with Sikh heads on spears, I wonder what they called that time.............
> 
> As for most people being spiritually ignorant, with the advent of the internet, I would have said the opposite.


Wouldn't that have been Kalyug as well?

You must be on a very different part of the internet than I am.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> You think that Sikhism is not about enlightenment? Then why do you follow it?


to help me live an honest and true life and to then die in peace. Most enlightened people just turn into babas anyway. The others keep it to themselves, so what is the point in finding enlightenment?



HFTarasque said:


> So things like the strict code of conduct are not controlling?



no, absolutely not, the code of conduct exists to make you a better person, anyone who follows it out of fear, or duty is, in my view, an idiot. Follow it out of love, or try to follow it out of love,  or don't follow it at all. Be a Sikh because you love the code.No one should struggle with being a SIkh, you just need to get the levels right, a Khalsa is the highest a Sikh can be, it should be a pleasure, not a responsibility. 



HFTarasque said:


> But you do consider yourself Sikh, no?


Well I do, yes, I cannot speak for whether others consider me a Sikh. 



HFTarasque said:


> I think that's exactly what it refers to. In your satisfaction with the material world, you are turning your back on spiritual matters. We are spiritually ignorant, and I think that's why we have such dogmatic controlling religions in the world today. They both approach it from the wrong direction.



What are spiritual matters? What does it mean to be spiritually ignorant? There seems to be so many different meanings of the word spiritual, I am going to have to ask you to clarify. 



HFTarasque said:


> Wouldn't that have been Kalyug as well?


so that means then was kalyug, now is kalyug, which time was not kalyug?



HFTarasque said:


> You must be on a very different part of the internet than I am.



A quick google search for porn shows 372 million results, the word spiritual shows 277 million. strangely enough the words spiritual porn show 6.4 million!

People are starting to look beyond a quick fix of pleasure in my view, I guess that is my definition of spiritual, looking beyond temporary pleasures.


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## lotus lion (Mar 23, 2015)

Hi,

In opening I would like to say that I have a lot of love and respect for my Buddhist Brothers and Sisters, am a long-time Meditator of the breathe (8 years), and also study the Theravada school of thought.

_<<1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile. Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure.>>_

I would tend to be in agreement with yourself with respect to Sikhi and Buddhism being similar.

My stance is that the Teachings that came through the Buddha are also found in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The difference with regards to God and no-God is, at one level, but a semantic one.

From my understanding Sikhs and Buddhists are both describing that Divinity is everywhere, and whilst Sikhs openly acknowledge it and perfectly comfortable with calling it God, Buddhists are, respectfully, indifferent to it.

For illustration purposes, imagine a pool of water from which all of life and everything has appeared from. Sikhs would see that as Divine and call it God; Buddhists would say that that was merely performing its natural function.

A further illustration, imagine someone you love, respect and admire. Sikhs would acknowledge that, Buddhists would see it too but say that it is just a person.

Both acknowledge it and recognise the attributes but have different stances, but that is all they are at the end, simply stances.

On a more practical level, I must admit that personally, the differences do begin to take effect over time. If I look at the person who I love in an indifferent way, which is not wholly incorrect when looked at from this perspective, one can see the cumulative effect.

As a Sikh I naturally and rightly believe that that God is everywhere and there is a feeling of love, comfort, warmth, a strong sense of security as well as belonging that comes with it.

When one is indifferent to it, it initially feels less then respectful to begin with, and then somewhat empty, and ultimately isolated as one progresses on the path.

Having gone through this, I have now reached a happy medium where fully acknowledge God is everywhere and meditate, do Prayer & Ardas, and Sewa too.

In Summary, Sikhi, at its most fundamental level recognizes, re-establishes, and fully acknowledges the most important relationship in  life, which is with the Creator, Buddhist also see it, but are indiffent to the Creator.

_<<and the same can be said for the soul.>>_

Personally I believe in soul as The Guru and previous Teachers taught and it intuitively makes sense to me.

When on dies the spark of energy with you is extinguished and passes on in another Form, Rebirth as the Buddhists call it. That was the cause of you to be alive. There is a lot of debate about this even within Buddhism. Please look into Tathāgatagarbha - essentially that we already possess a seed, which when surrounded by the right conditions will flourish and allow us to become enlightened. 
Note how this not that different to what the Guru has taught except that Sikhs acknowledge that the seed is Divine in origin.

_<<Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth. Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand.>>_

For Me, Sach Khand and Nirvana are essentially the same, once again semantics.

"Sach Khand: The Realm Of Formless Truth

...After experiencing the fourth realm, he becomes Self-realized. Once a devotee attains Self-realization, he becomes situated in this final realm of Truth, the ultimate stage of Spiritual experience of linking with the Absolute. ... It's also called in the Gurbani Chauthaa Pada (Fourth State) because it is beyond three qualities of Maya.... Param Anand (Bliss), Jeevanmukti (living liberated)... state of absolute Peace and tranquility, and so on. It is a state of existence in which the Aatmaan of the individual is linked and absorbed in the Mool, like a drop of water in the ocean.
...
At this point, the seeker has become one with his Mool (Source, Origin, Joti-Svaroopa...) within. Here, he identifies himself with the One True, Formless, Infinite Consciousness. Linked with his Origin, the Absolute Reality, his Soul links with the Spirit just as rivers merge with the ocean. This is the journey of an Spiritual aspirant. This journey begins from a material plane and ends at the Spiritual Plane. But, the SGGS asserts that those who have completed this journey are very "rare" in this world.

Source: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart11.htm

_<<The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue. How can I resolve this conflict?>>_

Ultimately practice is what matters.

Sikhs, such as myself sincerely have a lot of love, respect and reverence for the Buddha and his teachings but ultimately place thier faith the Guru, Dharma and Sangat as His teachings were complete, recorded and finalized through The Guru.

The Guru Granth Sahib has plurality at its heart and recognises that the teachings have been re-transmitted through a Noble Lineage which included Ram, Krishna and The Buddha, but recoginise that Enlightment will come through Nanak.

Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.
The many created Buddhas speak
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 6

Nānak kahai kahāvai so▫e. ||5||12||
Says Nanak, I speak as He causes me to speak. ||5||12||

Thanks and hope that helps,

Lotus


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## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

its not that I am anti-semantic, but I did have a glance at the website, Source: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart11.htm

on first glance, a very good website, good Sikh ones are few and far between, most have an agenda, this one seems quite delightful, on first glance anyway


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## Original (Mar 23, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.
> 
> As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master).  I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma.  So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me.  None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.
> 
> ...



Your welcome


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## Original (Mar 23, 2015)

Original said:


> Your welcome



OTE="HFTarasque, post: 200897, member: 20677"]Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.

As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master).  I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma.  So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me.  None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.

1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile.  Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure, and the same can be said for the soul.  Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth.  Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand.  The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue.  How can I resolve this conflict?

All religions profess one and the same thing, but in they're own way. Sikhism is a way of life that places lot of emphasis on "truth" and truthful living, all else follows. God in Sikhism is timeless, featureless, shapeless and cannot therefore be grasped by the senses nor can it be analysed through human reason. At best it could be realised through honest labour [kirit], charitable disposition [seva] and nam jap [meditation]. The immortality of the soul is the bedrock of Sikhism - it is eternal. And, since it is non-matter it cannot be debated or discussed. You either believe or you dont. Your spiritual self will develop wiith time, so don't worry. If anything, enjoy and learn through socialisation.

2. Scriptures are obviously very important to Sikhs, as the SGGSJ forms the foundation for Sikhi.  My question regarding this is, why is reading the Bani repeatedly so important?  Is kirtan more beneficial than to practice simran and meditation on the atman inside?  I can understand reading it for understanding, and of course reading scriptures at different times in our lives, we will receive different lessons.  But is inward meditation not more valuable, provided it is done with a proper spiritual understanding?

More than scriptures are values and humanitarian principles which underpins Sikh thought and are considered indispensable. Reading or listening of Bani is recommended but is not essential; contemplation is equally rewarding for spiritual progress. Bani in Sikhism is God. And, to be connected to the best of one's practical endeavours is a state of bliss - an analogy would be when you was dating this girl and wanting to be connected to her 24/7. Similarly, an exalted soul would want to be connected to his/her lover forever, hence the reason for nam simran [remembering the lord]. Sikhism promotes the good, the beautiful and the just God - look for the three in the external world [grishat jeevan] before diving within. With age comes maturity and with maturity comes wisdom - exhaust the physical inclinations before embarking upon spiritual exploration [recommendation].

3. As I am young and come from the West (I am only 18), I have certain Western values which I find hard to reconcile with both Sikhism and Buddhism, even though I may find the religion very appealing.  Specifically, I feel very strongly about gender equality, and that differences between men and women are almost entirely (if not entirely) cultural rather than biological or spiritual in nature.  This means that I am a strong advocate of homosexual rights, gay marriage, and transgender rights.  I realize that Sikhi has done a lot to stand up for many of these things, but at the same time, I see that homosexuals are not allowed to be married with the Anand Karaj.  As a Westerner, this seems to be the same religious dogmatism that I tried to escape when I left Christianity, but maybe I am misunderstanding it.

Sikh God is non-discriminatory, so whatever make or model you is and whatever your personal inclinations are does not invalidate your affilliation. These are social issues and not spiritual. In Gods eyes all are weighed even stevens. As with all things, evolution plays a significant role in mapping and shaping the human genome and Sikhism will too in all eventuality accept values and views of contemprory social trends and adopt accordingly.

4. Marriages.  As far as I understand, Sikhs do not condone love marriages, and instead practice arranged marriages.  What is the harm in a love marriage, or in dating?  Again I realize I come from a Western perspective, but I fail to see how these things are harmful to your spirituality.  If all of your energy is focused on finding a partner, or on sexual promiscuity, or the like, I can definitely understand it.  Also, why can an inter-faith marriage not be done with the Anand Karaj?  If a Sikh wants to marry a non-Sikh, isn't that their choice?  And if they want to do the marriage the Sikh way, is that not displaying the proper respect to Sikhi?  For a long time, I dated a Muslim girl and we planned to be married.  Sadly that didn't happen, but I can't imagine missing out on someone who may be the love of my life, because I am limited to only marrying someone of my religion.

This is very much social and not spiritual. Take for example the future King of England, Prince Charles. What are the chances of him marrying a check-out girl at a local store with whom he's fallen madly in love whilst visiting the store - love at first sight syndrome ? Quite remote, I'd imagine ! That's because society demands some intervention and respect for protocols over personal choices. From a spiritual perspective, the atman [soul] must do that which is in unison with parmatma [God] and act in accordance with its will. You exercising your freedoms as of rights will slow spiritual progress because true journey is singular, and your Juilet is God [connect within] and not this new find. However, your new find could be your soulmate, in which case it becomes your meditation, your salvation and a chance to culminate the form into the formless. Thus in unison with the divine reality. 

5.  Again as far as I understand, Guru Nanak Ji shunned religious labels.  He stated "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim."  So therefore, why have his teachings started a religion?  This is something I haven't been able to find much discussion about, and I am quite curious about it.  Has Sikhism fallen prey to the same dogmatism that he taught against?

Sikhism is a way of life [philosophy] and because it exponentially admits mystical experiences it is classified as a religion. 

6. The SGGSJ was named as the last Guru for the Sikhs.  Does this mean there will never be another Guru?  What about when we move out of Kal Yug and into the next age, will there be another succession of Gurus?

Guru is, Guru will be and Guru has always been - the word [sound current], it manifests in all creation.



I'm sorry for the long list of questions.  I look forward to hearing your responses.  Thank you.[/QUOTE]

Your welcome

Originalji, please try and avoid red as it is an admin colour, thank you


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## singh_man (Mar 23, 2015)

Good replies original ji. But one question.. what is contemplation? How does one do it? What are the different methods?


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## singh_man (Mar 23, 2015)

singh_man said:


> Good replies original ji. But one question.. what is contemplation? How does one do it? What are the different methods?


Actually.. turned out to be 3 questions ;-)


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## Original (Mar 23, 2015)

singh_man said:


> Actually.. turned out to be 3 questions ;-)





singh_man said:


> Good replies original ji. But one question.. what is contemplation? How does one do it? What are the different methods?


 
Singh Man Ji

I'll respond in the same numerical order with which you've raised your questions:

Legal definition of contemplation is foresight or forethought, that is to say, to have entertained mentally the possibility of an event occurring further in time. But from a spiritual perspective its long-winded and has two prerequisites. First, is concentration. This is to still the mind by fixing gaze on an external object. For example, striped shirt; study the vertical stripes with eyes open and then close eyes and visualise those stripes and when image starts to fade reopen eyes and repeat. This is the first stage of mind stillness through spot concentration. It paves the way for meditation.
There are a number of different techniques for meditation, but in relation to contemplation, this is a forerunner. For example, meditation by thought is carried out with eyes closed. The mind having been successfully disciplined through concentration can now hold on to a thought and retrack it way back in time. From nam simran perspective the idea is to go back to the mool mantar and connect with the sound within.
And, finally contemplation. This is state


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## Original (Mar 23, 2015)

Original said:


> Singh Man Ji
> 
> I'll respond in the same numerical order with which you've raised your questions:
> 
> ...


Contemplation in spiritual sense is the absence of the mind from its immediate surroundings and being in union with nature.

Hope I've been able to help, although, it's not an area of personal expertise.


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## singh_man (Mar 23, 2015)

Original said:


> Singh Man Ji
> 
> I'll respond in the same numerical order with which you've raised your questions:
> 
> ...



Thanks original - but I think#3 got cutoff. Regarding #2 with mool mantar, do you listen to it or say it to yourself over and over again? and what do you visualize? How do you keep the mind from wandering? I'm interested in the experience of nam Simran.

Cheers.


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## Original (Mar 24, 2015)

Singh Man Ji

I'll respond in the same numerical order with which you've raised your questions:

Legal definition of contemplation is foresight or forethought, that is to say, to have entertained mentally the possibility of an event occurring further in time. But from a spiritual perspective its long-winded and has two prerequisites. First, is concentration. This is to still the mind by fixing gaze on an external object. For example, striped shirt; study the vertical stripes with eyes open and then close eyes and visualise those stripes and when image starts to fade reopen eyes and repeat. This is the first stage of mind stillness through spot concentration. It paves the way for meditation.
Meditation is the second step. There are a number of different techniques for meditation, but in relation to contemplation, this is a forerunner. For example, meditation by thought is carried out with eyes closed. The mind having been successfully disciplined through concentration can now hold on to a single thought and retrack it way back in time. From nam simran perspective the idea is to go back to the mool mantar and connect with the sound current within.
And, finally contemplation. This is a state of perfect harmony when an exalted soul having mastered the previous two can now dwell upon the divine reality with eyes open. Much like the icon of Buddha smiling but with eyes open. A good example is afforded by Arjun, one of the brothers of the 5 pandus of Mahabharata - the archer. In a competition to win the princess's hand in marriage contestants were set the task to pierce the eye of the fish by shooting an arrow. The fish was suspended above a pot of burning oil below. The objective was to look in the pot of oil below and aim above into the eye of the fish. Arjun succeeded in piercing the eye and when questioned how he did it, he replied, "all I could see was the eye".

Good morning Sir !

Please accept my sincere apologies for failing to deliver the text in full. I've pasted on to this reply together with your recent questions answered, you'd be be able to enjoy the two in full.

Much obliged!

Here goes: First n foremost one need to have an idea about what one is searching for, that is to say, philosophising. Having narrowed ones search one is more focused in finding the particular from the general - tuning in to be more precise.

Perennial philosophy [Eastern] tells us to sit and meditate. What does it mean in laymans language ? It means to consciously breakaway from the hustle bustle of everyday activity and sit down to still the mind on an internal thought or an external object. Sikh Gurus dug themselves bunkers below ground to escape from the physical noise outside to listen to the music melody inside. But why ? Because Sikhism professes that to be the ultimate purpose of ones journey here on this physical plane of existence [jeevat maryia bhavjal tariya]. 

But before we embark upon this music melody chase one need to fully understand the criteria within which it operates. There are conditions which must be met and satisfied. Although, basic in nature, it does however, have significant implications on spiritual progress. The soul cannot be suppressed and denied certain wants [morally justifiable] no matter what religious opinion. Pursuit of legitimate pleasures and fanciful inclinations do not act as a hinderance, but rather gravitates us closer and closer to our true home, namely, the self [Waheguru]. Theives, drunkards all makes n models of this wonderful constitution have access to Waheguru irrespective of trackback record.

First Principle: have you discharged your physical obligations, that is, social [dues to society including your work], personal [dues to kin n kind] and finally religious [whatever denomination]. Sikhism expects the seeker to fulfil their Grishat Jeevan obligations before homing-in on spiritual expedition. Once worldly commitments have been met the seeker then shuts his/her eyes to connect within. Then and only then you begin to get an inkling of the wonders of the Shabd-Guru. Now this here isn't guaranteed, for some seekers have set for eons and not connected and there are those who've in the middle of nowhere unwittingly got connected. How does that work ? This is where the immortality of the soul comes into the equation. Dependent upon ones karm does one earn connection, Nanak says, that too, "by the grace of God [satgur parsad]".The question is, do I believe Nanak ? And, if affirmative then rest assure because Nanak [word guru] will find you irrespective of position, posture, location in time or space. And, hence the three pillars kirit kar, vand shak and nam jap are considered 3 steps for spiritual alignment.

The operative word in Sikhism is "hukum rajayi chalna" - live within Eternal Law, be of righteous disposition always, and attend to your self within and not necessarily be the sheep following in line another sheep.....and, since this is lila [playground] according to Sikh Theology play with whatever takes your fancy. There can be no heaven without hell.

I'll now attend to your questions in order of receipt:

Mool mantar is a preamble to the rest of Guru Ji's bani. You can listen to it with your eyes and not necessarily with the ears. Mool mantar defines what Nanak's God is. It's every where. Look out into creation and align your thought in appreciating Ek On Kar, the good, the beautiful and the just God - permeating every fibre of creation. As a discipline [Sikh], orally reciting mool mantar is recommended because as I said above, who knows when the lightening is going to strike - you have to be available [as in 3, pin plug].
Parrot phrasing is not how I see Sikh; I'd rather put on a good tune and boogie the night away to mellow the soul or personally speaking sing a good tune to align my true nature [romantic]. Of course, there comes a time in human evolution when you're at a threshold to be totally and utterly contemplating Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru to merge and become "bani" the sound and no longer have the physical body. That will be our physical demise - death time! But to deny and turn away from the beautiful life God has given you in all its diversity at an age when you should be living it is to misunderstand human birth. Yes, where nature has in one way or another been inequal in bestowing what all creation has otherwise, then 24/7 engegement is understandable.
You visualise on your very self and ask; " what did I do today, have I trodden on the path of a good human being, have I fulfilled all my obligations, have I not caused injuries  to another's feelings, have I lived the day to the maximum of my human potential", if the answer is yes to all of the above, consider yourself to be the alive mool mantar [sargun]. Remember, you are but manifestation of the Shabd-Guru albeit in a physical frame. And, this body is a field of invisible vibrations [Waheguru], musical notes on a violin string
The mind will be so absorbed because satguru [shabd] have taken residence within thee. Even when consciously you want it focussed elsewhere it will want to come back to God consciousness territory.

Many thanks -


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## HFTarasque (Mar 26, 2015)

Hello everyone who has responded; thank you very much for the responses.  Original, harry haller, your responses in particular have given me a lot to think about.  Unfortunately I have been involved in quite a long argument on another forum regarding this topic, and I simply don't have the energy or the time to debate anymore.  Thank you once again.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 26, 2015)

thats ok, stop debating and just share


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## Original (Mar 26, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Hello everyone who has responded; thank you very much for the responses.  Original, harry haller, your responses in particular have given me a lot to think about.  Unfortunately I have been involved in quite a long argument on another forum regarding this topic, and I simply don't have the energy or the time to debate anymore.  Thank you once again.



Here's a parting present from the Sikh camp !

Once upon a time, out in the forest lived a monk with his young son. During the young son's growing up years the monk attended to his son's basic needs as a single parent and spent the rest of his time in meditation. Many years later when the son had reached the age of reason and discretion he spoke to his father thus, "father, I've decided to leave home"
"but why?" questioned the father
"because I want to find "myself", replied the son
"where", asked the father
"out in the social world of men, women and society in general. I cannot accept your way of life to do nothing but sit hours on end meditating - I'm sorry".
To which his father replied, "very well then ! do come home and tell me when you've found it".

Taking leave from his father the son sets off to the world of men, women and the rest.

Having spent years in pursuit of leisures and pleasures of life the son returns home. As always, he find his father sitting outside in the garden meditating; nothing changed, thought he.

Seeing his son return home, the father got up and embraced him. The two having met after so many years had so much to talk and after the usual meet, greet and treat out of the way, the father said, "tell me, have you found yourself ?". Shaking his head the son replied "no" and in disbelief sank to the ground. His father reassuring and encouraging to worry not, nudged him to look up, and pointing to an empty basin lying in the corner of the room, the father said, "go get some rest and take that empty basin with you and bring it before me in the morning filled with water. Oh yes, together with a spoonful of salt".

Accordingly, first thing in the morning the son placed the basin filled with water before his father. The father instructed his son to add the salt to the water. After a few minutes the father spoke, "sip the water from this end and tell me what do you taste". 
The son sips and replies "the water is salty". 
"Now sip from the Middle and tell me what do you taste" requested the father. ""again, salty water" replied the son
"And, now this end" pointing at the basin the father requested.
"salty water" answered the son.

"You see" continued the father, "the self is like the salty water, pervasive and everywhere. Because I'd found mine I sit therefore".


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## Harry Haller (Mar 26, 2015)

Original said:


> Here's a parting present from the Sikh camp !
> 
> Once upon a time, out in the forest lived a monk with his young son. During the young son's growing up years the monk attended to his son's basic needs as a single parent and spent the rest of his time in meditation. Many years later when the son had reached the age of reason and discretion he spoke to his father thus, "father, I've decided to leave home"
> "but why?" questioned the father
> ...



I am sorry I see nothing particularly Sikh about this story, if anything the SGGS counsels against sitting on mountaintops or even gardens doing nothing other than losing in the self. Life is a rich tapestry or experiences, emotions, challenges, tasks and education, Sikhism gives you the tools and the manner in which to experience all this, but experience it please. 

Guru Nanakji did not spend his entire life meditating in the garden, he travelled, extensively, met people, had experiences, lived.........


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## Original (Mar 27, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I am sorry I see nothing particularly Sikh about this story, if anything the SGGS counsels against sitting on mountaintops or even gardens doing nothing other than losing in the self. Life is a rich tapestry or experiences, emotions, challenges, tasks and education, Sikhism gives you the tools and the manner in which to experience all this, but experience it please.
> 
> Guru Nanakji did not spend his entire life meditating in the garden, he travelled, extensively, met people, had experiences, lived.........



Totally agree with you, but you've missed the gist with which I wrote. This here a parable is an illustration for the young searcher [HFTarasque] in general of spirituality and not necessarily about Sikhism. And, I was, if you like, metaphorically saying God is not exclusively confinded to one faith but randomly available to all.

Much obliged


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## HFTarasque (Apr 14, 2015)

harry haller said:


> to help me live an honest and true life and to then die in peace. Most enlightened people just turn into babas anyway. The others keep it to themselves, so what is the point in finding enlightenment?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is an interesting question, and probably not one that I have the learning to be able to properly answer.  But if you are going to ask that, then why not ask what the purpose is in living an honest and true life?  That line of questioning doesn't lead you to answers, IMO.

I think spiritual matters are anything to do with connecting to higher powers, which may or may not be obvious and visible in our lives.  Call that God, Waheguru, the Universe, whatever you want.  To be spiritually ignorant is to turn away from that, and pursue things that satisfy the mind but stunt your long-term growth.  This is my definition of it of course, I'm sure others will have different ones.

I can't answer that definitively, as it's a fairly new idea to me.  I could see an argument that this physical world IS always Kalyug, as that is the nature of the world.  That's kind of the idea that I've always grown up with, anyway.

O_O Is it wrong that I'm kind of curious what those 6,4 million results are?  I would agree that being spiritual is looking beyond temporary pleasures, though.



lotus lion said:


> Hi,
> 
> In opening I would like to say that I have a lot of love and respect for my Buddhist Brothers and Sisters, am a long-time Meditator of the breathe (8 years), and also study the Theravada school of thought.
> 
> ...



Regarding the God issue, this is a matter which confuses me greatly about the Sikh position.  I have seen many people stating that Sikhi has a very pantheistic view of God, a Creator that is part of all creation but also outside of it, which can be reached by meditating within yourself (the atman/brahman kind of idea, like a source from which all of reality dwells, but an impersonal one, not a literal being).  I think of this as similar to Gestalt, the whole is more than the sum of its parts.  I have also heard some state that the Sikh view of God is more of a universal energy, that the Hukam is the system and rules by which the universe operates (very similar to a Buddhist concept).  I have also heard some Sikhs speaking of a very Abrahamic view of God, where he is this omnipotent omniscient Creator who listens to prayers and is worshipped (for example the folks over at sikhiwiki).  It is this last idea that I struggle very much with, and I find to not only be logically contradictory, but also inconsistent with what I understand of the Guru's teachings.  Could you please explain this to me?

Another question I have on the issue is, if God is either of the first two, why pray?  Why do ardaas?  What is the purpose of praying to a being which is essentially the sum of creation, an unconscious and unacting source?  Why not meditate inwardly, and work to cut away the man-made separation of a person from everything else?



Original said:


> OTE="HFTarasque, post: 200897, member: 20677"]Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.
> 
> As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master).  I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma.  So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me.  None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.
> 
> ...



I accept what you said about God, but I have a hard time taking things simply on faith.  I need to have personal experience to believe something, I cannot simply believe it because it is what some people said sometime in history.  My issue is that I can see, and understand, the arguments both for a pantheistic God, and also the argument that debating on God hinders spiritual progress.  Since they both make sense, and they both ring true, but yet are obviously contradictory... What do I do with that?

I understand what you said about the marriage being more social than spiritual, but I'm afraid I didn't really follow what you said after that.  How does exercising freedoms slow down spiritual progress?  I just really didn't follow this, I'm sorry.

Respectfully, this didn't answer my question.  You say the Guru is, will be, and has always been.  In this case, what are you saying is Guru?  Do you mean Waheguru?  In that case, we are discussing something very different.  Are you talking about enlightened men, such as the Gurus, and those who came before them?  In that case, are you saying that the Guru Granth Sahib is the final Guru and there will be no more, or not?

Also, thank you for the story.  I completely agree.


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## Original (Apr 14, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> It is an interesting question, and probably not one that I have the learning to be able to properly answer.  But if you are going to ask that, then why not ask what the purpose is in living an honest and true life?  That line of questioning doesn't lead you to answers, IMO.
> 
> I think spiritual matters are anything to do with connecting to higher powers, which may or may not be obvious and visible in our lives.  Call that God, Waheguru, the Universe, whatever you want.  To be spiritually ignorant is to turn away from that, and pursue things that satisfy the mind but stunt your long-term growth.  This is my definition of it of course, I'm sure others will have different ones.
> 
> ...



Look son, you're at an age of experimentation, love n live and your Guru right now is everything that teaches you something. At 18, you're young and handsome - go and find yourself your otherhalf who'll make you a man, and then and only then step on to the spiritual path and that too after life has given you the cold shoulder. The sweet sense of spiritual wisdom will begin to make sense then - there can be no heaven without hell.

Go and play in God's garden without reservations - be human before becoming spiritual.


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## HFTarasque (Apr 14, 2015)

Original said:


> Look son, you're at an age of experimentation, love n live and your Guru right now is everything that teaches you something. At 18, you're young and handsome - go and find yourself your otherhalf who'll make you a man, and then and only then step on to the spiritual path and that too after life has given you the cold shoulder. The sweet sense of spiritual wisdom will begin to make sense then - there can be no heaven without hell.
> 
> Go and play in God's garden without reservations - be human before becoming spiritual.


I yearn for the truth.  I have experienced the parties, the 'dating', the 'living', and it feels empty to me.  I am living that life of experimentation now, and it doesn't feel satisfying.  I want to step onto the spiritual path, and find a love which will help me along that path.  I know I am young, but being spiritual does not mean I cannot live.


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## Original (Apr 14, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> I yearn for the truth.  I have experienced the parties, the 'dating', the 'living', and it feels empty to me.  I am living that life of experimentation now, and it doesn't feel satisfying.  I want to step onto the spiritual path, and find a love which will help me along that path.  I know I am young, but being spiritual does not mean I cannot live.



Son, you'd just about broke puberty let alone maturity - spiritual studies are another world right now, so go and exhaust your human potential first. With age comes maturity and with maturity comes wisdom. Wisdom is the application and understanding of knowledge. The source of human knowledge is rationality and empirical observation. Just how much you've seen and experienced, tell me? 

You need to be a human before you can be spiritual. Now you'd probably have an axe to grind and may feel like rebutting on what I'm saying ?

Consider this, a 2-3 year old infant ask's you, "where did I come from?". You can try telling the infant all that you know of the human procreation process all night long but the penny won't drop because the child's faculties hadn't yet developed to fully comprehend that level of information. However, the same child at around 10 - 14 years of age would come to know the same by the evolutionary processes of nature nurture without making attempts to know. Similarly, your cognitive mechanisms are yet developing to filter and digest information. 

Truth is sat and sat is God and God is you -

Once upon a time, like you, a doll made of salt wanted to know the depth of the ocean. So she went along to a holyman who against all his endeavours tried persuading her to wait until maturity. But no, the doll wouldn't have any of that and persisted that he the holyman take her to an ocean. Relentlessly, he took her to the shores of the ocean and no sooner did she touch the waters did she melted. 

Stay away son and go and find yourself among your social kind - 

Goodnight & Godbless


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Apr 14, 2015)

I have no questions and no answers for this discussion, just two comments.

1. I think this is the most interesting discussion I've read anywhere in a long time.

2, Any time you feel so inclined to go on a spiritual quest is the right time. Mine began when I first heard the song "The Impossible Dream." Before that I just pretty much accepted what I had been taught. That song made it personal. I was 11 or 12. I am now 63, still living with my "heart striving upward" and amazed at the journey.

BTW, I am a pretty standard, garden variety SRM Sikh. 

Please continue. I want to hear more.


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## HFTarasque (Apr 15, 2015)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> I have no questions and no answers for this discussion, just two comments.
> 
> 1. I think this is the most interesting discussion I've read anywhere in a long time.
> 
> ...


Thank you.  I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age).  "Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience."  I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual.  If you have anything to add to the discussion, I would like to hear your thoughts.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Thank you. I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age).



Firstly, I did not find his post patronising at all, when a wise man tells me I am going wrong, I listen very carefully, its called humility. 



HFTarasque said:


> Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience." I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual.



 and err you know this how? We are looking at this from the point of youth and maturity, you only have the ability to see it from a youth point of view. 

I happen to agree with Originalji, you run the risk of of a lack of exposure to life and living, the experiences you are denying yourself, are actually what defines you and your ability to live. What is there to mediate on, if you have not lived?


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## Harry Haller (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> It is an interesting question, and probably not one that I have the learning to be able to properly answer. But if you are going to ask that, then why not ask what the purpose is in living an honest and true life? That line of questioning doesn't lead you to answers, IMO.


the purpose in living and honest and true life is contentment, in my opinion


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## Original (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Thank you.  I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age).  "Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience."  I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual.  If you have anything to add to the discussion, I would like to hear your thoughts.



Dear son

I'm not speaking down on your abilities I'm simply stating what is true. Your teacher is "life" it self. The trials, tribulations, the predilections and the prejudices, the complex of instincts and emotions, habits and convictions is what will make and shape you. As you will grow in the physical world so will you grow in your spiritual world. 

Consider the following statement : all married bachelors are from Mars !


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## Original (Apr 15, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Firstly, I did not find his post patronising at all, when a wise man tells me I am going wrong, I listen very carefully, its called humility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



H

Sell the shop and become "Uncle Don - solutions to dissolutions" - you're write up for the young grasshopper too good !


----------



## HFTarasque (Apr 15, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Firstly, I did not find his post patronising at all, when a wise man tells me I am going wrong, I listen very carefully, its called humility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Firstly, it wasn't patronizing, but I cannot agree with it, as it was insinuating that young people cannot be spiritual (or AS spiritual as when you are older).  It only takes a quick look at the world to see just how wrong that is, and how many 'elders' are really just bigoted old men who have no spiritual progression whatsoever.  Not to say this is always the case, of course, but it is simply insulting to say that a path I truly want to follow isn't right just because of my age.

I don't have to be old to see it.  You can look at people, look at their lives, and see they are just as empty.  The slaves running around their lives, with no contentment, no true satisfaction, just slaves to their jobs, their social circles, and the life they have stuck themselves into.  How is that desirable?  Can I not say, now, that I do not want that life?  If I can't choose my path now, then what is the purpose of choosing a path at all?

Being spiritual doesn't mean I can't live.  I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting.  Are you implying that I should be going to parties, getting drunk, doing drugs, being sexually promiscuous, and wasting away my life because that is "experience"?  Some experiences I can see I simply don't need to have.  There is no room in my life for heroin, and there is no reason I should choose to have that experience.  Am I denying myself an experience by being spiritual?  On the contrary, I would say that I am denying myself an experience of the divine by NOT being spiritual.  And that experience is higher than any this world can offer.  One does not need to experience genocide, in order to contemplate it.  One does not need to be hated, in order to meditate on the nature of hate.  Some experiences simply are not necessary to have personally.  What is there to meditate on, if I have not lived?  Why are you choosing to meditate on your life?  Are there not higher things to meditate on?  Besides all of this, I don't know when I will die.  I may die tomorrow.  I would rather lead a satisfying life now, instead of waiting until I am 'old and mature' to do it.  Why wait?

If the choice is between an empty life of 'experience', and a satisfying life of spirituality, where I sacrifice some experiences (like getting blackout drunk.  Oh snap, I was really looking forward to that one), I will choose the latter, every time.  I am not looking for empty experiences, filled with the illusions of this world.  I'm looking for the truth.  Please understand my search, and do not misunderstand me.  I'm not as different from you as you think.

Edit: I want to be clear about something.  I am not saying this just for me.  It's not a matter of pride, or insisting that my way is right.  I am simply presenting that people younger than yourselves CAN have spirituality, and it CAN be beneficial in their lives.  Not everyone is cut out to be a wild and crazy teenager.  I never have been, and I never want to, and I know there are others out there like me.


----------



## Harry Haller (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Firstly, it wasn't patronizing, but I cannot agree with it, as it was insinuating that young people cannot be spiritual (or AS spiritual as when you are older).



I happen to agree, I do not think young people can be as spiritual as they could be when they are older. 



HFTarasque said:


> It only takes a quick look at the world to see just how wrong that is, and how many 'elders' are really just bigoted old men who have no spiritual progression whatsoever



yes, they are the ones that started early! 



HFTarasque said:


> Not to say this is always the case, of course, but it is simply insulting to say that a path I truly want to follow isn't right just because of my age.



No one is insulting you, I think you have been addressed with much love, personally



HFTarasque said:


> I don't have to be old to see it. You can look at people, look at their lives, and see they are just as empty. The slaves running around their lives, with no contentment, no true satisfaction, just slaves to their jobs, their social circles, and the life they have stuck themselves into. How is that desirable? Can I not say, now, that I do not want that life? If I can't choose my path now, then what is the purpose of choosing a path at all?



I detect quite an ego here, the slaves? you mean ordinary people trying to survive and make a better world for themselves and their children? Those slaves are my brothers and sisters. 



HFTarasque said:


> Being spiritual doesn't mean I can't live. I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting. Are you implying that I should be going to parties, getting drunk, doing drugs, being sexually promiscuous, and wasting away my life because that is "experience"?



Who mentioned sex, booze and drugs? You were told to live a little, so is this your definition of living?



HFTarasque said:


> Some experiences I can see I simply don't need to have. There is no room in my life for heroin, and there is no reason I should choose to have that experience. Am I denying myself an experience by being spiritual? On the contrary, I would say that I am denying myself an experience of the divine by NOT being spiritual. And that experience is higher than any this world can offer. One does not need to experience genocide, in order to contemplate it. One does not need to be hated, in order to meditate on the nature of hate. Some experiences simply are not necessary to have personally. What is there to meditate on, if I have not lived? Why are you choosing to meditate on your life? Are there not higher things to meditate on? Besides all of this, I don't know when I will die. I may die tomorrow. I would rather lead a satisfying life now, instead of waiting until I am 'old and mature' to do it. Why wait?



Hmm your right, I suggest you find a mountain and some ashes, maybe a nice lionskin



HFTarasque said:


> If the choice is between an empty life of 'experience', and a satisfying life of spirituality, where I sacrifice some experiences (like getting blackout drunk. Oh snap, I was really looking forward to that one), I will choose the latter, every time. I am not looking for empty experiences, filled with the illusions of this world. I'm looking for the truth. Please understand my search, and do not misunderstand me. I'm not as different from you as you think.



I think you are very different, I think you are looking for a religion, or way of life that makes you feel elite, better than the slaves, hah look at all them pathetic slaves, beavering away, working, living, having problems, overcoming problems, how very quaint! 



HFTarasque said:


> Edit: I want to be clear about something. I am not saying this just for me. It's not a matter of pride, or insisting that my way is right. I am simply presenting that people younger than yourselves CAN have spirituality, and it CAN be beneficial in their lives. Not everyone is cut out to be a wild and crazy teenager. I never have been, and I never want to, and I know there are others out there like me.



Good Luck on your journey from all us slaves!


----------



## HFTarasque (Apr 15, 2015)

You have really misinterpreted me here.  I'm not wishing to get into an argument, and I am not wishing to insult anyone.


harry haller said:


> I happen to agree, I do not think young people can be as spiritual as they could be when they are older.


Alright.  That is your opinion.  Please do not use it to limit others.  I have read many of your posts, and I can tell that you have very wise things to say.  Don't keep others from pursuing that same wisdom.




> yes, they are the ones that started early!


I'm not even going to respond to that...




> No one is insulting you, I think you have been addressed with much love, personally


I think everyone here has been respectful to me, and I appreciate that.  I find the limitations being put on me, and being pushed away from spirituality, to be degrading.




> I detect quite an ego here, the slaves? you mean ordinary people trying to survive and make a better world for themselves and their children? Those slaves are my brothers and sisters.


Are you going to deny that there are people caught up in the illusions of this world, who do not think deeply but just act as parrots chasing this thing and the next?  Those people exist.  They are many.  Should we have compassion for them?  Absolutely.  Just because they are caught in this world doesn't mean they are any lesser than you or me.  It means they are on a different path, but it is not a path I choose, and they can always choose a different path. They're not locked into their lives.  It is as simple as that.  There is no ego.  They are all manifestations of the same source, as I am.  How can I be "better?"




> Who mentioned sex, booze and drugs? You were told to live a little, so is this your definition of living?


Then I have to ask, what on earth were you referring to?  Because honestly, outside of that, I can't think of ANYTHING that one cannot experience SIMULTANEOUSLY with spirituality.  You both seem to be treating spirituality as something you sacrifice your entire life for, which sounds more like a hermit in the woods to me.




> Hmm your right, I suggest you find a mountain and some ashes, maybe a nice lionskin


Really, do not misunderstand me on this.  I never said that you should be an ascetic and forsake life and forsake experiences.  Please don't put words into my mouth.




> I think you are very different, I think you are looking for a religion, or way of life that makes you feel elite, better than the slaves, hah look at all them pathetic slaves, beavering away, working, living, having problems, overcoming problems, how very quaint!


If you think that is my position, then either I have not communicated myself clearly, or you have greatly misunderstood me.  If you think I am trying to feel better than others, or feel elite, then there is simply no more point in continuing this conversation.


----------



## Original (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Thank you.  I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age).  "Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience."  I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual.  If you have anything to add to the discussion, I would like to hear your thoughts.




Young man,

Harry is your elder and a senior here at SPN - please exercise respect at all times. To be a good Sikh [student] pay due diligence to your seniors, even at the expense of an error

As for your visitor's visa [joke], please be at liberty to fire questions or whatever that takes your fancy and I’ll do the best I can to honour.


In the temple of Apollo at Delphi, the words “know thy self” were inscribed for a reason, because, the individual who knows him/herself knows what is advantageous to itself; it can discern the limits of its powers, and by doing what it knows, it provides itself with what it needs and so does well; or, conversely, by being scrupulous from what it knows not, it avoids mistakes and thereby mishaps.

Whereas, for those who do not know themselves, in the first place, knowing the spiritual within is like rocket science. That is not say, they are less likely to meet the spiritual, not at all, but may not avail the opportunity when it presents itself due to their ignorance. Of course, imagination, wonder, fancy, scepticism and the rest are modes of perception and can produce ideas, images, circumstances and situations to fill the void within, but son – life out there has all, and is waiting to be mined. Once you’ve found the spiritual you from the earth’s crust you’re best placed to put that on the lathe of the divine cutter/polisher [Sikhism]so it reflects your true illuminisoty.

You have the spirit of a warrior, have faith and all else will follow in good time. The ONE will find you – says Nanak.

Goodnight & Godbless


----------



## HFTarasque (Apr 15, 2015)

Original said:


> Young man,
> 
> Harry is your elder and a senior here at SPN - please exercise respect at all times. To be a good Sikh [student] pay due diligence to your seniors, even at the expense of an error
> 
> ...


Original Ji,

First of all, please do not address me as "young man."  Unless you would like to be called "old man."

Harry is a wise man, and I recognize and respect his wisdom.  However, I will not tolerate being put down.  There are times for respect, and there are times to stand up for oneself.  Also I think this is a cultural issue, because I refuse to respect someone solely because of their age.  Age means nothing without wisdom and virtue.

I have asked questions, but unfortunately my last set of questions has gone unanswered.

On the contrary, I think that being spiritual is a part of knowing oneself.  You can know how you act in certain situations, but can you really know who you are if you don't meditate and contemplate?

I don't know if I have a warrior spirit, but I am certainly a fighter.  I have fought all my life, especially for expressing my beliefs within a community which does not accept deviation.  I have lost friends, I have been alienated, I have been cursed and called a devil worshiper, simply because I expressed beliefs different from the accepted Christian understanding.  This is a part of why I am feeling so pushed away now.

I have my path.  Why would you dissuade me from following that path?

Good night, and I apologize for anything that may seem rude.  I am trying to be direct, because it seems like I am not communicating well.


----------



## JourneyOflife (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> First of all, please do not address me as "young man."  Unless you would like to be called "old man."
> 
> ...



Could you please summarize what you feel "your path" is? Our ages are much closer and I have siblings who are even closer to yours, want to have a discussion about it?


----------



## Harry Haller (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> You have really misinterpreted me here. I'm not wishing to get into an argument, and I am not wishing to insult anyone.



ok, accepted



HFTarasque said:


> Alright. That is your opinion. Please do not use it to limit others. I have read many of your posts, and I can tell that you have very wise things to say. Don't keep others from pursuing that same wisdom.



haha, I do not consider myself particularly wise, after all problems and issues in life are merely material for the next gag! However, whatever I have learned, has been learned from living. 



HFTarasque said:


> I think everyone here has been respectful to me, and I appreciate that. I find the limitations being put on me, and being pushed away from spirituality, to be degrading.



oh your talking to the wrong people, there are many on this forum that would support you to the hilt, we are just expressing our opinions, and creating a dialogue for discussion, as that is how we learn, all of us, especially me, yesterday I learned loads about the SRM, its all good, but we should all be able to take a gentle bit of ribbing, and use humour to get us through. No one is pushing you away, again, we are just stating our experiences, I think Originalji has a similar background to me, I am not sure where Chazji or Luckyji have vanished to, as their input here would probably be useful to you. 



HFTarasque said:


> Are you going to deny that there are people caught up in the illusions of this world, who do not think deeply but just act as parrots chasing this thing and the next? Those people exist. They are many. Should we have compassion for them? Absolutely. Just because they are caught in this world doesn't mean they are any lesser than you or me. It means they are on a different path, but it is not a path I choose, and they can always choose a different path. They're not locked into their lives. It is as simple as that. There is no ego. They are all manifestations of the same source, as I am. How can I be "better?"



Choose your path and live it, that is your right. Just as I and Originalji chose ours, choose yours, and live it!



HFTarasque said:


> Then I have to ask, what on earth were you referring to? Because honestly, outside of that, I can't think of ANYTHING that one cannot experience SIMULTANEOUSLY with spirituality. You both seem to be treating spirituality as something you sacrifice your entire life for, which sounds more like a hermit in the woods to me.



I dressed as a bear for 3 months, fluffy paws the lot, I am not sure you could experience that simultaneously with spirituality......(in fact there is a clip on youtube of me driving a Range Rover whilst singing 'my way')



HFTarasque said:


> Really, do not misunderstand me on this. I never said that you should be an ascetic and forsake life and forsake experiences. Please don't put words into my mouth.



accepted!



HFTarasque said:


> If you think that is my position, then either I have not communicated myself clearly, or you have greatly misunderstood me. If you think I am trying to feel better than others, or feel elite, then there is simply no more point in continuing this conversation.



to be misunderstood by one person is unfortunate, to be misunderstood by two, 

look, your probably talking to the wrong people, all we are saying is maybe stop being so intense, live a little and live your life through the grace of God. 

now come here and give me a hug


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## Original (Apr 15, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> First of all, please do not address me as "young man."  Unless you would like to be called "old man."
> 
> ...



Sir

In whatever capacity you're visiting SPN, you are most welcomed as a guest. Where I come from the first thing we're taught is "respect and dignity" followed by hospitality, etc.It is not cultural but humanitarianly civil.  

Go and visit the land of my people, Punjab and you will see how we live. We are simple and not complex. Our language is love and as warriors our fight is with the "self" and not with the world nor with destiny.

Our motto is love n live.

If you feel you have the spirit of a fighter than fight with yourself and not with situation and circumstance. Learn to accommodate fellowmen for their shortfalls.

Take care


----------



## Admin (Apr 15, 2015)

Dear @HFTarasque and @Original 

Please cool down both of you. Let us focus on the topic in hand and move forward... Lets discuss the topic not the personalities... 

Gurfateh!


----------



## Original (Apr 16, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> First of all, please do not address me as "young man."  Unless you would like to be called "old man."
> 
> ...



Dear Seeker

Further to your spiritual excursion, I write with good intent to steer you in the right direction, in particular, about the "self", the you.

At a basic level if we start of with the self, the you, maybe then we can begin to understand other fundamentals of this beautiful creation. What is it that gives rise to a subjective sense of the self made of matter and energy ? 

There are two paths to unravel this mysterious sense of the self and they are; physical and spiritual.

*Physical*

Scientists explain that the self must be a collective property of the *neurons in your brain*, which have mostly stayed with you throughout life, and which will cease to exist after you die. This bundle of neurons have made a permanent home within your bodily frame which has given rise to a subjective sense of selfhood and has labelled it self "HFTARASQUE". This HFTARASQUE bundle is unique and cannot occupy another space at the same time (16.04.2015) and therefore can only recall experiences which the bundle has gone through within that HFTarasque frame (body).

*Spiritual*

Things we can touch have no permanence. There is nothing we can hold on to in this physical world of matter, only by letting go can we truly possess that, which is real. This intuitive sense of self is an effortless and fundamental human experience. But is nothing more than an elaborate illusion. The real self is formless and is *without* and *within* - inconceivable. The mind has created this sense of the subjective self - let go and you will begin to feel the real. The real you is "now" - this very moment, and since infinity extends in all directions in space and time you are everywhere. 

To get to that level of awareness and understanding takes time, through the processes of evolution and not necessarily meditation and contemplation. Disciplines such as meditation and contemplation have their own functions and place. I will confess however, I started meditating at around 14 because I was a marital arts student. It was part of the art that made no sense to me at the time but over the years I've mastered it to a pitch of perfection with which I enjoy spirituality today. 

What myself and Harry was saying, was for you to go out into the good world, boost your external CV to reflect internally later in life - know the creator through creation. In other words, the roller coaster of life will better equip you.

Buddha on his deathbed summoned all his disciples and said, go out into the forest and collect all the fallen leaves of the trees and bring them back to me. All the disciples did accordingly and there lay a mountain of leaves at Buddha's bedside. Pointing at the heap of leves, Buddha said, "see these leaves, this is the amount of knowledge that I have given you. That which remains on the trees is what you must endeavour to seek".

I'll close for now and remember - our primary purpose is to move away from the physical perceptions and conceptions, only then can we experience the "absolute" self - the one without form. But that through the passage of time.

Sikhism is a way of life. It's not an encyclopaedia of life and wasn't intened to address questions as such - to know it you have to live it.


More later - hope this helps !


----------



## harmanpreet singh (Apr 16, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> I find the limitations being put on me, and being pushed away from spirituality, to be degrading.




hi HFTarasque ,
Thats good ,you got it too early , it took me few years to understand that ppl whom i am arguing on this site are pulling me down and further down on spiritual level towards darkness .  i feel they are Atheists  who  claims to be Sikh (i have no issue with this) ,and their aim is to ridicule  the ppl with spiritual inclination . its better to avoid this site ,it worked for me .

Namaste !


----------



## Harry Haller (Apr 16, 2015)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Thats good ,you got it too early , it took me few years to understand that ppl whom i am arguing on this site are pulling me down and further down on spiritual level towards darkness .



I hear this a lot, offensive is probably the wrong word, misunderstood is probably a better word, although, crevice is a brilliant word, although not as good as orifice (name of my first hamster), but anyway, back to the subject, I will happily debate on the subject of Vedic Meditation and how it has infiltrated Sikhism, and that is what this is, debate, no one is right, and no one is wrong, all are free to follow whichever path they wish, the problem is the growing dilution of Sikhism, the growing number of Deras, of false babas, and what concerns me most is the addiction to escapism, the need to 'get away from life' and discover yourself inwards, I wager you have a better idea of who you are by living, not throwing yourself in a cesspit of pleasure, but living, walking the dog, interacting with society, working, helping, growing, dealing with problems, which leads to educating inwards, of finding new material, new concepts, new thoughts, none of which can be achieved by inward meditation, as such provides no new material, in my opinion anyway. Also, are your views so fragile that a bit of debate can pull you down? Our Gurus held firm opinions that could not be brought down by death or torture, are you so precious that you cannot debate? 



harmanpreet singh said:


> i feel they are Atheists who claims to be Sikh



This comes from a refusal to accept that Akal Purakh has a beard and sandals? I am not an atheist, but I refuse to accept that the 'God' that most religions accept exists in Sikhism, I don't know anything about God, but I bow down before Akal Purakh. We all bow down in different ways, mine is to see Akal Purakh in every living thing, yes, even those I eat. 



harmanpreet singh said:


> and their aim is to ridicule the ppl with spiritual inclination



We are a frank bunch here, there was a time when the following was a good answer

Well, if you have a problem, you must go to Gurdwara and pray, and make offerings, and then do an Akhand Path, and pray a bit more, and repeat the word Waheguru, and focus on Guru Nanaks feet, etc etc. 

This just won't do anymore, and it will invite frank discussion, not ridicule, but blunt frank discussion. 



harmanpreet singh said:


> its better to avoid this site




I would rather you thought of better arguments, better reasoning, educate us, enlighten us, yes, we ask questions, but answer them!



harmanpreet singh said:


> Namaste !



SAT SRI AKAL......


----------



## HFTarasque (Apr 16, 2015)

harry haller said:


> ok, accepted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the kind response.  I think the fact that you have responded so peacefully shows some wisdom on your part, maybe wisdom that I lack.  You can have a hug 

I think we do come from different backgrounds, and it can be very difficult to recognize that one person's history can be very different from another.  I will try to understand yours, if you will try to understand mine.



Original said:


> Sir
> 
> In whatever capacity you're visiting SPN, you are most welcomed as a guest. Where I come from the first thing we're taught is "respect and dignity" followed by hospitality, etc.It is not cultural but humanitarianly civil.
> 
> ...


I would agree that respect should be given to everyone, even those who act despicably towards you, or may try to kill you.  That doesn't mean you need to be a pushover, or that you need to bow down to others.  I simply do not wish to respect people older than me for the sole reason that they are older than me, and to bow down to their wishes.  I meant no disrespect, and I apologize for the rudeness in my previous posts.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your and Harry's points.  My understanding was that you were saying that spirituality is worthless if you are young, and you need life experience to have any sort of meaning.  That is what I was fighting so strongly against.  I see now you are simply saying that experience further enhances spirituality, and that I shouldn't get so caught up in spirituality that I lose out on living.  If I am understanding your message correctly, then with that, I do completely agree.  It was never my intent to become a recluse, just as it was never my intent to forsake spirituality and become some kind of rebel.

I look forward to what more you have to say.

As to the questions about my path, I'm sorry, but I have to go right now and that question will require some thought to answer.  I will return to it later.


----------



## Harry Haller (Apr 16, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Perhaps I have misunderstood your and Harry's points. My understanding was that you were saying that spirituality is worthless if you are young, and you need life experience to have any sort of meaning. That is what I was fighting so strongly against. I see now you are simply saying that experience further enhances spirituality, and that I shouldn't get so caught up in spirituality that I lose out on living. If I am understanding your message correctly, then with that, I do completely agree. It was never my intent to become a recluse, just as it was never my intent to forsake spirituality and become some kind of rebel.



bingo!


----------



## harmanpreet singh (Apr 16, 2015)

harry haller said:


> the problem is the growing dilution of Sikhism


So harry ji ,your  version of Sikhi is pure and you are custodian of Sikhi ?


harry haller said:


> what concerns me most is the addiction to escapism, the need to 'get away from life' and discover yourself inwards, I wager you have a better idea of who you are by living, not throwing yourself in a cesspit of pleasure, but living, walking the dog, interacting with society, working, helping, growing, dealing with problems, which leads to educating inwards, of finding new material, new concepts, new thoughts, *none of which can be achieved by inward meditation,* as such provides no new material, in my opinion anyway.


may be some are finding new concepts ,new thoughts  by inward meditation ,why it concern you ?




harry haller said:


> Also, are your views so fragile that a bit of debate can pull you down? Our Gurus held firm opinions that could not be brought down by death or torture, are you so precious that you cannot debate?



ya such debates  leaves me dry ,empty , i feel there is no room for debate in spirituality if some agrees with you then its ok , if someone is making fun of your feeling even then its Ok .it reminds me of a shabad by Guru Sahib .

_Raag Gond, The Word Of The Devotees. 

Kabeer Jee, First House:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


When you meet a Saint, talk to him and listen.

Meeting with an unsaintly person, just remain silent. ||1||

O father, if I speak, what words should I utter?

Speak such words, by which you may remain absorbed in the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

Speaking with the Saints, one becomes generous.

To speak with a fool is to babble uselessly. ||2||

By speaking and only speaking, corruption only increases.

If I do not speak, what can the poor wretch do? ||3||

Says Kabeer, the empty pitcher makes noise,

 but that which is full makes no sound. ||4||1||_




harry haller said:


> This comes from a refusal to accept that Akal Purakh has a beard and sandals?


thats your assumption (baseless)




harry haller said:


> Well, if you have a problem, you must go to Gurdwara and pray, and make offerings, and then do an Akhand Path, and pray a bit more, and repeat the word Waheguru, and focus on Guru Nanaks feet, etc etc.


ya thats definitely better than criticizing /bashing others on Internet .  

Waheguru ji ki fateh


----------



## Harry Haller (Apr 16, 2015)

harmanpreet singh said:


> So harry ji ,your version of Sikhi is pure and you are custodian of Sikhi ?



this was written in regard to Deras and Babas, are you a fan of Deras and Babas?



harmanpreet singh said:


> may be some are finding new concepts ,new thoughts by inward meditation ,why it concern you ?



I do not think it is particularly Sikhi, if you do, thats fine too, that is why this is called a forum, where people exchange views, debate, learn. This is now the second time in 2 days I am having to state that my opinions are my own, is it not obvious? If I asked each person I respond to why it concerns them, we would not get much done in the way of debate now would we? I have never ever said my opinion is word, or definitive, it is just my opinion. 



harmanpreet singh said:


> ya such debates leaves me dry ,empty , i feel there is no room for debate in spirituality if some agrees with you then its ok , if someone is making fun of your feeling even then its Ok .it reminds me of a shabad by Guru Sahib .



If I have ever made fun of your feelings I am sorry. 



harmanpreet singh said:


> Raag Gond, The Word Of The Devotees.
> 
> Kabeer Jee, First House:
> 
> ...



yet it is ok to call me a fool and an unsaintly person? , I happen to agree with you, I am a fool and I am unsaintly, do you think Babas are saintly? do you think those that run Deras are saintly? just curious...



harmanpreet singh said:


> ya thats definitely better than criticizing /bashing others on Internet .



actually I would like to see more of the meditation lobby as writers and content masters.......


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## JourneyOflife (Apr 17, 2015)

HFTarasque said:


> Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.
> 
> As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master).  I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma.  So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me.  None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.



I'm willing to have a deeper discussion on any of the points I mention below. For the sake of brevity, I will keep this reply short and to the point. Let me know if you would like to discuss anything further, are unsure, would like clarification or more info.



> 1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile.  Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure, and the same can be said for the soul.  Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth.  Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand.  The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue.  How can I resolve this conflict?



I don't think you can resolve this conflict through discussion or pondering. I mean, the Sikh Gurus didn't even want you to "believe" in what they were saying. They wanted you to experience Waheguru for yourself. Experiencing Waheguru really has nothing to do with your beliefs on the afterlife. In the Guru Granth Sahib you have writers like Baba Farid who lean towards a Sufi understanding of the afterlife. Then you have others like Naam Dev who may lean towards a Bhakti understanding. But if you read their writing you'll find that this literally has nothing to do with them finding Sach Khand/Nirvana/Enlightenment, or whatever you wanna call it. Believing in a specific version of the afterlife isn't going to help you along the Path. That is not the message of Sikhi, and it isn't the emssage of Buddhism either.



> 2. Scriptures are obviously very important to Sikhs, as the SGGSJ forms the foundation for Sikhi.  My question regarding this is, why is reading the Bani repeatedly so important?  Is kirtan more beneficial than to practice simran and meditation on the atman inside?  I can understand reading it for understanding, and of course reading scriptures at different times in our lives, we will receive different lessons.  But is inward meditation not more valuable, provided it is done with a proper spiritual understanding?



It's all up to you. Sikhi is not about imposing rules and regulations and spoon-feeding you along the entire way, you are required to use your own intuition and understand for yourself what works for you and what doesn't. The wisdom and lessons in the Bani are something every Sikh should aspire to implement in their own lives. But I don't think parroting the Bani without actually understanding what's being said will help you out much. Blind recitation is responsible for a lot of the problems in the Panth today.



> 3. As I am young and come from the West (I am only 18), I have certain Western values which I find hard to reconcile with both Sikhism and Buddhism, even though I may find the religion very appealing.  Specifically, I feel very strongly about gender equality, and that differences between men and women are almost entirely (if not entirely) cultural rather than biological or spiritual in nature.  This means that I am a strong advocate of homosexual rights, gay marriage, and transgender rights.  I realize that Sikhi has done a lot to stand up for many of these things, but at the same time, I see that homosexuals are not allowed to be married with the Anand Karaj.  As a Westerner, this seems to be the same religious dogmatism that I tried to escape when I left Christianity, but maybe I am misunderstanding it.



You are confusing the Spiritual Message of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib with the Political nature of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The SGGS ji says absolutely nothing about homosexuality and transgender. The ruling against homosexuals being married through Anand Karaj has nothing to do with the actual spiritual teachings of the Sikh Gurus. It is a political decision taken by the leaders in the Akal Takht. It is not an absolute decision and can be changed if needed. This literally has nothing to do with the SGGS.




> 4. Marriages.  As far as I understand, Sikhs do not condone love marriages, and instead practice arranged marriages.  What is the harm in a love marriage, or in dating?  Again I realize I come from a Western perspective, but I fail to see how these things are harmful to your spirituality.  If all of your energy is focused on finding a partner, or on sexual promiscuity, or the like, I can definitely understand it.  Also, why can an inter-faith marriage not be done with the Anand Karaj?  If a Sikh wants to marry a non-Sikh, isn't that their choice?  And if they want to do the marriage the Sikh way, is that not displaying the proper respect to Sikhi?  For a long time, I dated a Muslim girl and we planned to be married.  Sadly that didn't happen, but I can't imagine missing out on someone who may be the love of my life, because I am limited to only marrying someone of my religion.



Again, nothing in SGGS ji says anything about how a Sikh couple should meet and decide to get married, whether they should do a "love marriage" or an arranged marriage. You are confusing Sikhi with Punjabi culture. Punjabi culture is what promotes arranged marriage (although this is now also changing very quickly), Sikhi literally says nothing about it.

The issue is that historically, Rehat rulings (including who you could and couldn't marry) only ever applied to the Khalsa, the Baptized Order of Sikhs. Sikhs who were not initiated into the Khalsa were not bound by these Rehats and could theoretically marry whoever they wished. The current Rehat we have has, for a number of socio-political reasons back in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, redefined 'Sikh' to mean 'Khalsa'. Which is why there is some muddiness and non-Baptized Sikhs being bound to these same regulations as well. Once again, this literally has nothing to do with the SGGS.

In fact, the Anand Karaj ceremony wasn't even around until about the end of the 20th century, which is when it was created to combat the high number of Sikhs engaging in Brahmanical marriage rites. I think ideally, Sikh marriages don't need to be much more than an Ardas performed by the couple before the Guru, in which they pledge to stand by each other in all times and strive to be the best Sikhs they can possibly be. And there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

At the same time, I can't understand why someone who wishes to walk the Path of the Guru would not want a partner with who they can share every step of that special journey. I am not an Amritdhari so technically the Rehat doesn't apply to me (if we go with the historic understanding of Rehats), I could marry a non-Sikh by having a court marriage, but I won't because I don't see any benefit to it. I mean it's fine if someone else does, I'm not saying it makes someone a bad person, but I want my partner to be Sikh so we can walk this Path together and support each other at every stage. Even without the Rehat, I doubt I'd marry a non-Sikh.




> 5.  Again as far as I understand, Guru Nanak Ji shunned religious labels.  He stated "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim."  So therefore, why have his teachings started a religion?  This is something I haven't been able to find much discussion about, and I am quite curious about it.  Has Sikhism fallen prey to the same dogmatism that he taught against?



Guru Nanak didn't 'shun' religious labels, he taught that they weren't important to Waheguru. What you choose to call yourself isn't as important as how you live, because anybody anywhere can have a connection with the Creator. Muslims can, Hindus can, Christians can, Jews can, Buddhists can, and Sikhs can.

Historically though, I think it's pretty obvious that when he began to spread his message in 1499, he did intend to create a separate path, distinct from all the others in the world. And this Path was crystallized 10 generations and 200 years later on Vaisakhi 1699, when Guru Gobind Singh initiated the Khalsa Panth. We can have a discussion on this if you like.




> 6. The SGGSJ was named as the last Guru for the Sikhs.  Does this mean there will never be another Guru?  What about when we move out of Kal Yug and into the next age, will there be another succession of Gurus?



No, there will never be another Guru. I think Sikhi teaches people to let go of these dark age, golden age etc. ideas, because the age is whatever we define it to be. If we live truthfully, then the age is golden. If we live horribly, then the age is dark. My grandmother has experienced many different "ages" throughout her long life.

People today complain about it being Kal Yug. Why? Because people are supposedly becoming more insolent and ignorant. But literally every generation has said that about the next. My mother complains about my behavior and how kids are so bad these days, but when I talked to my grandma, she said she used to have the same complaints about my mother lol. The world today is actually a much better place than it ever has been in the past. People live longer, people are healthier, there is more freedom to live your life how you want, most of us in places like the west especially don't have to worry about getting clean water or food for our families, and so forth. As far back as I have researched, people have been complaining about how we are living in "the dark ages". Instead of complaining about how the world is so horrible, Sikhi teaches us to discard these superstitious notions and work to make real change. We can make the world the golden age whenever we want.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 17, 2015)

JourneyOflife ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please accept my gratitude for very thoughtful posts of yours in many threads. I would urge you to start topics/threads which you feel are important for the Sikh generation of today, so all of us can learn from it.

Your input is vital for the SPN members.

Thanks & regards
Tejwant Singh


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## JourneyOflife (Apr 17, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> JourneyOflife ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the kind words, Tejwant ji. I will do my best to share wherever I feel I can offer useful input! I can already think of one topic I'd like to discuss in a separate thread, I'll start it as soon as I have enough time to put the content together and be free to carry on with the discussion


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