# God's Will And The Law Of Karma



## Saint Soldier (Dec 6, 2008)

Sat shri akal,

Following is what Guru nanak said about the will of God and the Law of karma-

About will of God:-

Whatever happens is all in god's will
--Guru nanak /gauri,151

That alone happens which pleases god nothing is in the hands of man who is completely helpless
--Guru nanak/asa,417
 
Man comes and goes by god's will which pervades everywhere and everything for all time
--Guru nanak/ gauri,151

Pain and pleasure are part of gods will
--Guru nanak/ gauri,223

Men should live as god wills
--Guru nanak/siri,25

He who submits to the will of god,is accepted and treasured by him
--Guru nanak/asa,421

Liberation from bondage comes by god's grace none else has any say(i.e. can intercede)in this
--Guru nanak/jap,5

He who walks in the will of god, faces no impendiment
--Guru nanak/asa,421

whatever God willed,has come to pass;
For there is no doer except him.
--Guru nanak/gauri,154

One is approved only if one submits oneself to the will of the lord-commandant
in whose court only truth is accepted
--Guru nanak/maru,1090

God does whatever he wills
--Guru nanak/asa,475

About Law of karma:-

One reaps what one sows.
One eats from what one earns
--Guru nanak/suhi,730

One receives in accordance with what one does.
As one sows ,so one eats
--Guru nanak/danasri,662

Hear me,lord!
Man's life proceeds
as his accumulated actions determine.
He receives joy or sorrow,
in accordance with 
what his past deeds have earned him.
but all is good that comes from you.
 --Guru nanak/tukhari,1107

All are yoked to god's will,
and will be adjudged 
according to their deeds
--Guru nanak/basant,1169

The record of our good and bad deeds
is scrutinised
in the presence of the supreme Judge.
We will be allowed to dwell 
near Him or far away 
as a result of our adjudged actions.
--Guru nanak/jap,8

Now the question arises what determines our fate Will of God or the Law of karma.??let us try to find the answer with the above sayings of Guru nanak pita.


That alone happens which pleases god nothing is in the hands of man who is completely helpless
--Guru nanak/asa,417
One receives in accordance with what one does.
As one sows ,so one eats
--Guru nanak/danasri,662
arent the above two contradicting statements in one Guru ji is saying that everything happens with the will of God and man can do nothing on the other hand in the second he says man gets according to his deeds this is confusing:hmm:  allright lets move on.

He who walks in the will of god, faces no impendiment
--Guru nanak/asa,421
All are yoked to god's will,
and will be adjudged 
according to their deeds
--Guru nanak/basant,1169
hmm im geting it now.our subjection to God's will:hmm:

Pain and pleasure are part of gods will
--Guru nanak/ gauri,223

Hear me,lord!
Man's life proceeds
as his accumulated actions determine.
He receives joy or sorrow,
in accordance with 
what his past deeds have earned him.
but all is good that comes from you.
 --Guru nanak/tukhari,1107
again both of them go against each other.:shock:

now let us try to understand for ourselves(thats because we hav our own brains)
and we shall get some hints from Guru ji as we move on
now,
whatever God willed,has come to pass;
For there is no doer except him.
--Guru nanak/gauri,154

something in this thought, yes Guru ji says that God is the only doer that is the situation we are in is created by god and the reaction to that situation is our karma(contrary to the buddhist say that karmas are action,but buddist intellectuals dont face such questions as they dont hav to answer about the will of God:shutup

But what then determines the will of god here is something from Guru ji
God does whatever he wills
--Guru nanak/asa,475
so God does as he wills.:hmm:

So finally we got our answer that God is the only doer and our karmas are simply reaction to his will which further decides how good or bad action we r doing .:yes:
hey im still not satisfied:crazy:, hey guys why dont all of you present your views over this. 

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 6, 2008)

It is a matter of great debate amongst philosophers and theologians, ‘the will of God’’.

Man chose emancipation from the union of obescience, to live according to how he pleases. There is so much suffering in the world, the good struggle with dignity, allocating all acts good or bad, to be the will of God. I contest this. God is a parent, our Mat Pita. As parents we arm our children with knowledge and wisdom, give them wings of imagination and faith in a higher power, fortify them with our love and free them to the world. We know the world to be a dangerous and volatile place of many evils and unscrupulous people. Yet as parents we have no great desire, wish or power to contain our offspring within the home, and nor do we have the power to guide each step they take other than the good values we have instilled within them. All above and beyond this becomes fate, fortune and what is attributed to as God’s will.

Although we struggle and suffer, we witness evil and immoral persons flourishing and boasting of their ability to be lowly persons with much fortune. Enterprise and initiative are their own reward, and evidently so. We study others and find all are somewhat helpless in many aspects of life. A negative outlook can be demoralising. Yes indeed, we may find ourselves in a nightmarish situation and suffer quietly for we know it is our lot, or God’s will, ore an absence of Gods consciousness of our existence and suffering, many things. I have noted when the dark periods pass by and the sun again shines, our memory erases the bad periods sometimes as if it didn’t occur. Such is human nature. We dwell upon the highlights of life, for to dwell on the negative is to become angered, cynical and disheartened. The power of will, retaining ones composure in midst of struggle and trial, mindful of the past heroes, Guru’s, Gods and great thinkers who suffered great hardship that we may be free and live in peace. 

God does not will mans suffering, the spirit of humanity perishes under insurmountable pressure and unrelenting stress. It is not conducive to spiritual growth, humnaity and peace for Waheguru to inflict or condone ongoing suffering.

So many facts to consider and ponder upon when reflecting upon the path and journey of life, the whys and wherefore’s of existence and the meaning and purpose of it all...Waheguru Satnam Ji....


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 6, 2008)

For starters I don't understand God's will. What I do know about it is that we are given two chioces in life. Either step on the righteous path or continue down our own path with the mind as the guide.

Here are shabads that will help clear things up.

DHANAASAREE, CHHANT, FIRST MEHL:​ 
Your Husband Lord is with you, O deluded soul-bride, but you do are not aware of Him. Your destiny is written on your forehead, according to your past actions. This inscription of past deeds cannot be erased; what do I know about what will happen? You have not adopted a virtuous lifestyle, and you are not attuned to the Lord’s Love; you sit there, crying over your past misdeeds.Wealth and youth are like the shade of the bitter swallow-wort plant; you are growing old, and your days are coming to their end. O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall end up as a discarded, divorced bride; your own falsehood shall separate you from the Lord. || 1 || You have drowned, and your house is ruined; walk in the Way of the Guru’s Will. Meditate on the True Name, and you shall find peace in the Mansion of the Lord’s Presence. Meditate on the Lord’s Name, and you shall find peace; your stay in this world shall last only four days. Sit in the home of your own being, and you shall find Truth; night and day, be with your Beloved. Without loving devotion, you cannot dwell in your own home — listen, everyone! O Nanak, she is happy, and she obtains her Husband Lord, if she is attuned to the True Name. || 2 || If the soul-bride is pleasing to her Husband Lord, then the Husband Lord will love His bride. Imbued with the love of her Beloved, she contemplates the Word of the Guru’s Shabad. She contemplates the Guru’s Shabads, and her Husband Lord loves her; in deep humility, she worships Him in loving devotion. She burns away her emotional attachment to Maya, and in love, she loves her Beloved. She is imbued and drenched with the Love of the True Lord; she has become beautiful, by conquering her mind. O Nanak, the happy soul-bride abides in Truth; she loves to love her Husband Lord. || 3 || ang 689

SIREE RAAG, FIRST MEHL, FOURTH HOUSE:​There is one awareness among all created beings. None have been created without this awareness. ang 24

As is their awareness, so is their way. According to the account of our actions, we come and go in reincarnation. || 1 || Why,
O soul, do you try such clever tricks? Taking away and giving back, God does not delay. || 1 || Pause || All beings belong to
You; all beings are Yours. O Lord and Master, how can You become angry with them? Even if You, O Lord and Master, become
angry with them, still, You are theirs, and they are Yours. || 2 || We are foul-mouthed; we spoil everything with our foul
words. You weigh us in the balance of Your Glance of Grace. When one.s actions are right, the understanding is perfect.
Without good deeds, it becomes more and more deficient. || 3 || Prays Nanak, what is the nature of the spiritual people?
They are self-realized; they understand God. By Guru.s Grace, they contemplate Him; such spiritual people are honored in His Court. || 4 || 30 || ang 25​

What we humans tend to do is react instead of act to a situation. When we react, our judgement is clouded by anger, greed, lust, attachment, or ego. Our mind becomes deluded and the light in our brain drifts further away. As soon as we realize our mistake the light is brighter and closer.

To change your karma and this reacting behaviour we are told to mediate on the Lord. Yes your past deeds cannot be erased, but by mediating on the Lords name one can change their karma. Some will come along and say, but it is God's will for the person to behave in this way. Sure there is no doubt about that, but as we come on this site and are introduced to truthful living and other places in our lives, ultimately we still have that split second power of choice. We are made aware of what is right and what is wrong and if you choose to sit their and be stubborn then as you do so will you recieve. :yes:


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2008)

Singh ji

I have always liked that shabad, and especially this line

Sit in the home of your own being, and you shall find Truth; night and day, be with your Beloved. Without loving devotion, you cannot dwell in your own home — listen, everyone! O Nanak, she is happy, and she obtains her Husband Lord, if she is attuned to the True Name. || 2 ||


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## pk70 (Dec 6, 2008)

That alone happens which pleases god nothing is in the hands of man who is completely helpless
--Guru Nanak/asa,417
One receives in accordance with what one does.
As one sows ,so one eats
--Guru Nanak/danasri,662
arent the above two contradicting statements in one Guru ji is saying that everything happens with the will of God and man can do nothing on the other hand in the second he says man gets according to his deeds this is confusing:hmm:  allright lets move on. (quate Saint Soldier Ji)
     [/FONT]
*Answer to your question lies in your question. If you can recall, Guru ji also advises to over come the influence of intellectual wisdom if the pursuit of Lord realization is felt for. *ਸਭੇ ਛਡਿ *ਸਿਆਣਪਾ* ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Sabẖe cẖẖad si▫āṇpā gur kī pairī pāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o.
*Give up all your clever tricks, and fall at the Feet of the Guru. ||1||Pause||
**ਮਃ **5*
*Why?*
*The* ਜਲੀਆ ਸਭਿ *ਸਿਆਣਪਾ* ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਰੋਇ ॥(SGGS17)
*Jalī▫ā sab**ẖ** si▫ā**ṇ**pā u**ṯẖ**ī c**ẖ**ali▫ā ro▫e.
**All clever tricks are burnt away, and you shall depart crying.*
*There* *is no contradiction, only a concept of His Ordinance needs to be understood with that wisdom that is useless in spiritual pursuit otherwise. Let’s take an example of a Drama, directed by a genius Director.If all players  act totally  as per director’s will, drama is played well. The actors who play well give in to Directors instructions and orders leaving their own thinking aside. Who does make the show bad? It is disobeying the Director. We are just players, if we play in His ordinance, nothing can affect us. When we go against it we suffer tremendously and irony is this that the course of His Ordinance goes on intact. Next question, When He is the doer, how can we act/play then? He has blessed all with a “**surat**”, all actors act as per “**surat**”. In His ordinance, that “**surat**” plays both role positive ones and negative ones.*
* ਪੰਨਾ 24, ਸਤਰ 19**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=24&punjabi=t&id=1025#l1025
**ਏਕਾ* *ਸੁਰਤ**ਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ **॥
**Ėkā sura**ṯ** je**ṯ**e hai jī▫a.
**There is one awareness among all created beings.
**ਸੁਰਤ**ਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ **॥
**Sura**ṯ** vihū**ṇ**ā ko▫e na kī▫a.
**None have been created without this awareness.
**ਮਃ **1   -*
*ਜੇਹੀ* *ਸੁਰਤ**ਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ **॥
**Jehī sura**ṯ* *ṯ**ehā **ṯ**in rāhu.
**As is their awareness, so is their way.
**ਮਃ **1 *
*Do you see the difference of His ordinance and individual actions as per His given “**surat**”?*
* He also sends some blessed ones with enlightening “**surat**” to put spiritual colors in the drama being played on this world stage. Those Seers try to affect that **surat** of others to take it towards the Lord also as per His will. Again, some listen some don’t, and the choices are made due to the individual **surat**.** Who, as it is said, are blessed ones, the state of mind of those ones is beyond expression* ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ *However, with fortified faith only in Him,  the actions are redirected, read on*

*ਪੰਨਾ 3, ਸਤਰ 6**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=3&punjabi=t&id=91#l91
**ਮੰਨੈ* *ਸੁਰਤ**ਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ **॥
**Mannai sura**ṯ** hovai man bu**ḏẖ**.*
By truly believing in the Lord's Name Divine comprehension enters man's mind and understanding.*ਮਃ **1 *
*   Spiritual Gurus explain the ways to be united with Him, the only thing they ask from the followers to give them is the”surat”,  in Sikhism, Guru wants nothing from us but our “surat”those who give their surat to Guru, are sculptured again, they move on in different direction from the rest of the world, reaching to different state of mind*
* ਪੰਨਾ 8, ਸਤਰ 2**http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=8&punjabi=t&id=352#l352
**ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ* *ਸੁਰਤ**ਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ **॥
**Ŧithai g**ẖ**a**ṛ**ī▫ai sura**ṯ** ma**ṯ** man bu**ḏẖ**.
**The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there.
**ਮਃ **1 *
*Now let’s see how His Hukam prevails even when one acts*
*ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ **॥ **ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ **॥ **ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ **॥**੨੦**॥ 
**Punnī pāpī ākẖaṇ nāhi. **Kar kar karṇā likẖ lai jāhu. **Āpe bīj āpe hī kẖāhu. **Nānak hukmī āvhu jāhu. ||20|| 
**By mere words of mouth (statements) a man becomes not virtuous or vicious. **The often repeated actions are engraved on the heart. **Man himself sows and himself reaps (he reaps what he sows). **By God's Order, O Nanak! man comes and goes. *

*It is a system well deigned, people question on parts of the whole system, for them, after trying to express as much as He can as it is infinite and complex to understand by all, Guru also says*
*ਹੁਕਮ**ੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ **॥
**Hukmī hovan ākār hukam na kahi▫ā jā▫ī.
**By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.
**ਮਃ **1 *
*  This complex game is said to be in His hands, an another reason He is to be called wondrous. All fall in His ordinance because none is beyond it. Even for individual acts, one is just working as He wills. Just as an employee having his own brains just work for the employer, same way one represents and works for Him as an employee represents the employer. In totality all what happens and done by people having different **surat**, fall in His ordinance. Understanding the whole system reduces the doubts. If it is partially questioned, it clouds the truth.*


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 7, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
thank you all for ur replies.
singh ji,



> What we humans tend to do is react instead of act to a situation. When we react, our judgement is clouded by anger, greed, lust, attachment, or ego. Our mind becomes deluded and the light in our brain drifts further away. As soon as we realize our mistake the light is brighter and closer.


that is what i just said but isnt all this with the will of God? becuse we never intent to do bad but still we somethimes do it. anger,greed and lust simply overtake us at some part of life. is this all with the will of god?




> To change your Karma and this reacting behaviour we are told to mediate on the Lord. Yes your past deeds cannot be erased, but by mediating on the Lords name one can change their Karma


again we can only meditate when god wills how can we perform our own karmas without his will?
for example Guru ji commented on Bhagat Seikh farids thought--
The first part of night yeilds flowers 
the later part fruit.
They who keep awake in god,
are alone blessed with his bounties.
--Bhagat seikh farid,1384

Guru nanak commented-
All bounties come from the lord 
None can expect them from him,
as a matter of right.
Some even awaken do not get them,
while others He wakes out of sleep and blesses.
--Guru nanak sahib/siri,83;1384 
Guru sahib himself is saying that we become religious or non-religious with gods will so where does our karmas go?where is our will in becoming religious or spiritual?





> Some will come along and say, but it is God's will for the person to behave in this way.


yes im doing this



> Sure there is no doubt about that, but as we come on this site and are introduced to truthful living and other places in our lives, ultimately we still have that split second power of choice.


really i dont think so even if we dont come here it would be called God's will even then.




> We are made aware of what is right and what is wrong and if you choose to sit their and be stubborn then as you do so will you recieve.


yes all of us know what is good nd what isnt but what can we do if God wills us to do bad?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru nanak~~


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 7, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
pk70 ji,:yes:

*



Let’s take an example of a Drama, directed by a genius Director.If all players act totally as per director’s will, drama is played well. The actors who play well give in to Directors instructions and orders leaving their own thinking aside. Who does make the show bad? It is disobeying the Director. We are just players, if we play in His ordinance, nothing can affect us. When we go against it we suffer tremendously and irony is this that the course of His Ordinance goes on intact. Next question, When He is the doer, how can we act/play then? He has blessed all with a “surat”, all actors act as per “surat”. In His ordinance, that “surat” plays both role positive ones and negative ones.

Click to expand...

*In the above example the director gives a script to the actor which depicts his will and he explains the way the actor must act and tell him about his limits.
But God in no way do so we are free to do whatever we want and God never gives us any clue or something like that which we may call as a "script" of the drama of life.
and plz explain me what exactly do u mean by "surat"




> *He also sends some blessed ones with enlightening “surat” to put spiritual colors in the drama being played on this world stage. Those Seers try to affect that surat of others to take it towards the Lord also as per His will*



now here is a question again in ur answer what decides that who will be a saint and who a thief isnt it our karmas of previous births or is it still the will of Lord?
why are some chosen one made enlightened and rest remain fools again from baba nanak--
All bounties come from the lord 
None can expect them from him,
as a matter of right.
Some even awaken do not get them,
while others He wakes out of sleep and blesses.
--Guru Nanak sahib/siri,83;1384 
Guru sahib says its the will of God but shouldnt it be the karmas of previous births?

*



 Even for individual acts, one is just working as He wills

Click to expand...

. *
The law of karma fails here?

*



Just as an employee having his own brains just work for the employer, same way one represents and works for Him as an employee represents the employer. 

Click to expand...

*The employer only designates us a rank and orders us to work it is we who using our skills and guts work and it is our will as to work hard or not.this is our karma isnt it?


> *In totality all what happens and done by people having different surat, fall in His ordinance. Understanding the whole system reduces the doubts. If it is partially questioned, it clouds the truth.*



Falsehood exhausts itself .
Truth alone prevails ultimately.
Guru nanak pita/Ramkali,953

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru nanak~~


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 7, 2008)

DHANAASAREE, CHHANT, FIRST MEHL: RAMKALI, MEHELE 3. : The reasoning of these verses are beautiful, poetic and sound. All Bani of scriptures is based upon valid reasoning. One who has not sinned and has lived a life of propriety should logically not encounter wickedness by nature of their own upstanding good name and honour. It is true. The woman in all scriptures, the spouse, the beloved, the motherland is mans responsibility and duty, long post his need and necessity of the same have passed. 

‘’Daat kare datar’’ God is the benefactor and the punisher. E look to find this is a false statement. Is our parents raised us in perfect tuition and faith, and we enter into a world and when suffering hardship we are unable to communicate we blame our parents it would undoubtedly be an untruth if not a downright falsehood. Obedient humanity is Gds fortress, wilful malfunction brings not only shame upon Waheguru but weakens his power. Once his posive light is dimmed, he thereafter is blamed for all else whilst man pays homage’s to all the delights and amusements of the world. 

Gods will is only and absolutely to peace and unity, for man to overcome material entrapments and be spiritually liberated, do no harm. Yet we blame without reason, convict without evidence and damn without ideal. We blame intellectual wisdom, as if there were any other kind of pure unbiased reasoning. There is paap, greed, envy, lust, ambition in the world. These paaps are the root cause of all evil and wickedness, a corruption of mans mind and thinking, a toxicity of his body and his general demeanour. 

In striving to veil their paap and ill intention they accuse and harangue, imply deception where there is none, and cite scriptures for their baseless unfounded barely veiled insinuations., Bani is perfect as is the true and devoted spouse remaining in her devastated home, abandoned and deserted by a spouse led astray be evil men who seek to make use of his wife’s wisdom and devotion. {Jai Santoshi Ma, Udeekan}.
Man s spellbound as are mankind bound by the delusion of falsehoods by Shetaan, Paap, who makes merry and prospers whilst the suffering good either suffer his evil in the cause of God’s will, or curse God for casting sinless souls into a world devoid of humanity or reason. 

Thus the Holy War of Paap continues, as paap’s sins are concealed and the mob blame and slanders Gianni’s, Pandits, and Priests whilst aggrandising all sinners and the debauched in its ill begotten den of iniquity that is media, I feel inferring the acts of Shethaan are Gods will is a slander and aberration upon the sacred word of Waheguru.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 8, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
hey is that all? can i expect some more replies ,comments and opinions?

~~sainty~~


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2008)

sainty ji

I will respond if you can wait a little longer. Sometimes I get side-tracked and the topic is not as simple as black and white. Thanks for starting the thread. This topic is in fact one of my favorites.


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## pk70 (Dec 8, 2008)

*Let’s take an example of a Drama, directed by a genius Director. If all players act totally as per director’s will, drama is played well. The actors who play well give in to Directors instructions and orders leaving their own thinking aside. Who does make the show bad? It is disobeying the Director. We are just players, if we play in His ordinance, nothing can affect us. When we go against it we suffer tremendously and irony is this that the course of His Ordinance goes on intact. Next question, When He is the doer, how can we act/play then? He has blessed all with a “[/FONT]**surat[/FONT]**”, all actors act as per “[/FONT]**surat[/FONT]**”. In His ordinance, that “[/FONT]**surat[/FONT]**” plays both role positive ones and negative ones (quote pk70)[/FONT]*

  In the above example the director gives a script to the actor which depicts his will and he explains the way the actor must act and tell him about his limits.[/FONT]
But God in no way do so we are free to do whatever we want and God never gives us any clue or something like that which we may call as a "script" of the drama of life.[/FONT]
and plz explain me what exactly do u mean by "[/FONT]surat[/FONT]"(quote Saint SoldierJi)[/FONT]
*First of all with all due respect I have to say that you have failed to understand implied idea beyond “director’s example” Director goes beyond script, many times he/she surpasses the writer(if it is not written by him/her) Like a mother says to the child” only those swim across who has better boats” then the child replies” Mom we are not in the river, we are far away from the river or ocean why we need a batter boat” You see, one can keep splitting hair just for the sake of it. In this example, only his direction and players' actions were taken to comprehend the will of the director about the delivery of the acts. Besides,the Lord being the writer of Life-script, He is also a director, He instructs us to act as per His ordinance, when as per given **Surat**, mortal accepts as it comes, misery and other factors that tear apart the soul leave no effect.  Reaction contrary to it as per given **Surat** take away all the peace. That is the point, soul seeks religion.*
*Your second issue is about” **Surat**”, its meanings with vast application are*
*“ to have awareness, to have attention to, to have virtuous consciousness or contrary to it” it cannot be limited to one word as it is used.*
*He also sends some blessed ones with enlightening “[/FONT]**surat[/FONT]**” to put spiritual colors in the drama being played on this world stage. Those Seers try to affect that [/FONT]**surat[/FONT]** of others to take it towards the Lord also as per His will(pk70[/FONT]**)[/FONT]*
  now here is a question again in [/FONT]ur[/FONT] answer what decides that who will be a saint and who a thief isnt it our karmas of previous births or is it still the will of Lord?
why are some chosen one made enlightened and rest remain fools again from baba Nanak--
All bounties come from the lord 
None can expect them from him,
as a matter of right.
Some even awaken do not get them,
while others He wakes out of sleep and blesses.
--Guru Nanak sahib/siri,83;1384 
Guru sahib says its the will of God but shouldnt it be the karmas of previous births?(quate Saint soldierji)[/FONT]
*It is very strange; you are expressing your own opinion about how and why a soul should be a saint. As expressed in the Guru bachan in which the word” **surat**” is used, actions are displayed as per given **Surat**, in other Guru Vaak(  **ਜੇਹੀ**ਸੁਰਤ**ਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ**॥
Jehī sura**ṯṯehā **ṯin rāhu.
As is their awareness, so is their way.
**ਮਃ**1 ** ) it is expressed how these actions continuously leave effect on the soul. **ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ **॥ **ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ **॥ **ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ **॥**੨੦**॥ 
**Punnī pāpī ākẖaṇ nāhi. **Kar kar karṇā likẖ lai jāhu. **Āpe bīj āpe hī kẖāhu. **Nānak hukmī āvhu jāhu. ||20|| 
**By mere words of mouth (statements) a man becomes not virtuous or vicious. **The often repeated actions are engraved on the heart. **Man himself sows and himself reaps (he reaps what he sows). **By God's Order, O Nanak! man comes and goes. *
*There is not a single Guru Vak in Gurbani that states that saints and Seers come to teach in this world because of their previous karama. I hope you will be aware of Karma theory in Hinduism and Sikhism is different basically with one vital point” in Sikhism, Karama can be changed but in Hinduism, no it cannot be, if you are born low you are low forever, but Sikhism says that even if one is born in low caste, he/she can reach to the highest spiritual goal. Guru ji also says ( in Baramaha M-1) we are here because of His grace not the Karama*
*Lets just look at your own above quote of Guru Nanak which actually defines the full control of the Lord. Every day, many Sikhs listen to Guru Shabadas that inspire to go only for virtuous way and live in Lord’s love and reject/ignore the rest as perishable because that is useless in Lord’s presence. How many are there who actually go for that? Not many, most of them, read, sing and enjoy the beauty of it but return to their activities like business as usual. Isn’t it? that is the reason Guru ji says to some He wakes up and there are others who are very close to the truth but never get it.*
*Then there are others who just have no such practices but once they encounter “soul with virtuous **surat**” they change totally like Bhagat Dhanna ji, Bhai Ghanyaa Ji . As I have given a quote of Guru Nanak about inexpressible Hukam, it is not that simple to explain because it prevails in the whole system some of which we see and some is still unseen by us. You are ignoring that factor while structuring your questions*
*Even for individual acts, one is just working as He wills(pk70)*
  The law of Karma fails here?(saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
*No, it isn’t, karma is also a part of His will. It is a good question though. Let’s ponder over it in detail. The [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] is given, actions start as per [/FONT]Surat[/FONT], those actions are individual because of the given [/FONT]surat[/FONT]; however, never forget, they are due to the [/FONT]Surat[/FONT], and [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] is given by the Lord, that is why actions by others become His will.  Are you with me?[/FONT]*
*Just as an employee having his own brains just work for the employer, same way one represents and works for Him as an employee represents the employer.(pk70) *
  The employer only designates us a rank and orders us to work it is we who using our skills and guts work and it is our will as to work hard or not.this is our Karma isnt it?(saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]

*We represent the infinite Employer, the skills we use are also His gifts( as regular employer provides us some stuff to perform) and the will remains employers, even before our regular employer, some times our own will carries no weight( we suggest and are rejected and we start doing as we were doing before our suggestion). You are forgetting Guru Ji’s answer here. The problem is that we question His ordinance partially instead of understanding its dominance in seen and beyond seen existence, another reason, the doubts pop up.*
*In totality all what happens and done by people having different **surat**, fall in His ordinance. Understanding the whole system reduces the doubts. If it is partially questioned, it clouds the truth.(pk70)*
  Falsehood exhausts itself .
Truth alone prevails ultimately.
Guru Nanak pita/Ramkali,953( Saint Soldier Ji)
[/FONT]*What is falsehood in the comments above that triggered this quote of Gurbani? I couldn’t understand, forgive me, please elaborate it.*

 [/FONT]


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 8, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
aad0002 ji,


> sainty ji
> I will respond if you can wait a little longer. Sometimes I get side-tracked and the topic is not as simple as black and white. Thanks for starting the thread. This topic is in fact one of my favorites.


 
 The fool will wait for ur comments . as that saying goes better late than never.:yes:


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 8, 2008)

...He is Himself the director, Himself the writer and Himself the actor...
...He is himself is the stage crew, the props, the audience and the stage...


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> aad0002 ji,
> 
> 
> The fool will wait for ur comments . as that saying goes better late than never.:yes:



Thanks, I appreciate your patience. from another fool


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2008)

sainty ji

As I said in an earlier post. This topic is one of my favorite ones. Before launching off on reactions to the Law of Karma and free will in Sikhism, it would be good to ponder this shabad. It always helps me put my thoughts into perspective. 

ਜਾਨੀ ਘਤਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਰੁੰਨੇ ਵੀਰ ਸਬਾਏ ॥ 
jaanee ghath chalaaeiaa likhiaa aaeiaa runnae veer sabaaeae ||
This dear soul is driven off, when the pre-ordained Order is received, and all the relatives cry out in mourning.
  
 ਕਾਂਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਥੀਆ ਵੇਛੋੜਾ ਜਾਂ ਦਿਨ ਪੁੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ॥ 
kaaneiaa hans thheeaa vaeshhorraa jaan dhin punnae maeree maaeae ||
The body and the swan-soul are separated, when one's days are past and done, O my mother.
  
 ਜੇਹਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੇਹਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੇਹਾ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
jaehaa likhiaa thaehaa paaeiaa jaehaa purab kamaaeiaa ||
As is one's pre-ordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions.
  
 ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰੰਦਾ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ 
dhhann sirandhaa sachaa paathisaahu jin jag dhhandhhai laaeiaa ||1||
Blessed is the Creator, the True King, who has linked the whole world to its tasks. ||1||
  
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥ 
saahib simarahu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to pass this way.
  
 ਏਥੈ ਧੰਧਾ ਕੂੜਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਹਾ ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ 
eaethhai dhhandhhaa koorraa chaar dhihaa aagai sarapar jaanaa ||
These false entanglements last for only a few days; then, one must surely move on to the world hereafter.
  
 ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਮਿਹਮਾਣਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਗਾਰਬੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ 
aagai sarapar jaanaa jio mihamaanaa kaahae gaarab keejai ||
He must surely move on to the world hereafter, like a guest; so why does he indulge in ego?
  
 ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ 
jith saeviai dharageh sukh paaeeai naam thisai kaa leejai ||
Chant the Name of the Lord; serving Him, you shall obtain peace in His Court.
  
 ਆਗੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਮੂਲੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ॥ 
aagai hukam n chalai moolae sir sir kiaa vihaanaa ||
In the world hereafter, no one's commands will be obeyed. According to their actions, each and every person proceeds.
  
 ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਿਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥੨॥ 
saahib simarihu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||2||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to pass this way. ||2||
  
 ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥ 
jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||
Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him.
  
 ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਾਚੜਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥ 
jal thhal meheeal rav rehiaa saacharraa sirajanehaaro ||
The True Creator Lord is pervading and permeating the water, the land and the air.
  
 ਸਾਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰੋ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
saachaa sirajanehaaro alakh apaaro thaa kaa anth n paaeiaa ||
The True Creator Lord is invisible and infinite; His limits cannot be found.
  
ਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਫਲੁ ਭਇਆ ਹੈ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ 
aaeiaa thin kaa safal bhaeiaa hai eik man jinee dhhiaaeiaa ||
Fruitful is the coming of those, who meditate single-mindedly on Him.
  
 ਢਾਹੇ ਢਾਹਿ ਉਸਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰੋ ॥ 
dtaahae dtaahi ousaarae aapae hukam savaaranehaaro ||
He destroys, and having destroyed, He creates; by His Order, He adorns us.
  
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥੩॥ 
jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||3||
Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him. ||3||

IMHO Guru Nanak is saying a lot about karma and our pre-ordained destiny in the shabad. But we have to take care not to over-simplify what he is saying. Look at the last line - jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||3|| Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him. ||3|| This line is stated twice in the shabad. Is Guruji giving us something to think about?

We have two ideas side by side in the last line. One idea is about His Hukam; the other is about the opportunity we have to choose. Things are never as simple as the Law of Karma or giving in and becoming passive. These two ideas work together. His will and our effort. 

The context for understanding is also very specific: saahib simarahu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa || Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to pass this way.  eaethhai dhhandhhaa koorraa chaar dhihaa aagai sarapar jaanaa || These false entanglements last for only a few days; then, one must surely move on to the world hereafter.

This shabad has been with me a lot lately. I have shared it with forum member pk70. The husband of a close friend is near death, and this shabad puts that reality into perspective. Guru Nanak is giving us the key to understanding our relationship with life, with death, and with the Satguru. Every single line of this shabad is saying something about that connection - His Will, our Actions.  
​


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 9, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> These two ideas work together. His will and our effort.
> ​


Antonia ji and Pyari Sadh Sangat ji,
Do you notice that the Gurus tackle every issue with both sides?
They are not saying you don't have free will and they don't say you do. They state what seem like two contradictory points. BUT with careful thought one comes to think that these aren't in fact contradictory, they are ways of saying things, they are ways of thinking about situations. 
I don't think this concept is complicated. We make it complicated by thinking about it too much.I've thought about it (no pun intended) with a rational mind, and found it to be quite simple. And I think it does not matter whether it is karma or God' will, we as Sikhs have to remember Him, share and live honestly. Now these principles do not require you to be a believer of karma OR God's will. The purpose of the concepts, if needed, is to bring balance in life. 

Let me present:
Slicing the onion :8-
Before, slicing the onion. I could say I will cut the onion, indicating free will or I could say God wills that this onion shall be cut.
After I cut the onion. I could either say, I've cut the onion or I could say, this sliced onion was the will of God.
But really does it matter who did what? The believer of almighty would say God did it. The atheist would say I did it. But in the end, the onion was in fact, guess? ...sliced. Now this is a neutral situation and presents no opportunity for the ...slicer to use the concepts to the advantage.( More on this later.)

I think there is no purpose of discussing things like these. There is no right answer when it comes to picking a side. They are two sides of a coin. If your coin is standing on the edge, it is unstable so, you will switch between the concepts depending on the situation. I think keeping your coin standing is better then having a side facing up all the time. I think this is what the Gurus were aiming for, by taking both sides!
This switch is required for balance in life! You have to know what side to tip the coin over for different situations to get the results.
Let me present another example of where and how to use the concepts to your advantage:
Getting an A+ on the report card :advocate:
The student could either be like that emoticon and get filled with pride, causing him/her to fall on the next test. Or he/she could keep pride away from him/her and chill, which makes him/her do better on the next test.
Now in this case, if the student says I did it, I, I, I, not you! Then pride will result. 
If the student says it is God's Will, then pride is no more. YAY! The student uses the concepts to his/her advantage and tips the coin to reveal God's will causing him to do better.

However, getting a A+ might not fill the student with pride, rather it might motivate him/her. In this case, saying I can do it! would result in a better output next time, rather than saying oh, it was jsut how God intended it, he might not be so graceful next time. Of course, however, the point is to obtain a positive mindset (_chardi kala _attitude), and through which ever way one can obtain that mindset, one should continue on that way.

Bhagat Singh


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 9, 2008)

*Sat shri akal,:shy:*
pk70ji,
[/FONT]
*



First of all with all due respect I have to say that you have failed to understand implied idea beyond “director’s example” Director goes beyond script, many times he/she surpasses the writer(if it is not written by him/her)

Click to expand...

**surpasses in the sense? at least he cannot change the script.alright don't give me another chance to eat away uragree got brain on this example*

*



			Like a mother says to the child” only those swim across who has better boats” then the child replies” Mom we are not in the river, we are far away from the river or ocean why we need a batter boat” You see, one can keep splitting hair just for the sake of it.
		
Click to expand...

**yes one can:roll:*

*



 In this example, only his direction and players' actions were taken to comprehend the will of the director about the delivery of the acts.

Click to expand...

**true i agree:yes:got it*


*



 Besides,the Lord being the writer of Life-script, He is also a director, He instructs us to act as per His ordinance, when as per given Surat, mortal accepts as it comes, misery and other factors that tear apart the soul leave no effect. Reaction contrary to it as per given Surat take away all the peace. That is the point, soul seeks religion.

Click to expand...

**HM inspiring *

*



Your second issue is about” Surat”, its meanings with vast application are
“ to have awareness, to have attention to, to have virtuous consciousness or contrary to it” it cannot be limited to one word as it is used.

Click to expand...

thank you:yes:*
*[/FONT]* 
[/FONT]


*



It is very strange; you are expressing your own opinion about how and why a soul should be a saint. As expressed in the Guru bachan in which the word” surat” is used, actions are displayed as per given Surat, in other Guru Vaak

Click to expand...

**and what if someone goes against the "surat" even then he will be a saint ?*

*



There is not a single Guru Vak in Gurbani that states that saints and Seers come to teach in this world because of their previous karama.

Click to expand...

**really?*

*



 I hope you will be aware of Karma theory in Hinduism and Sikhism is different basically with one vital point” in Sikhism, Karama can be changed but in Hinduism, no it cannot be

Click to expand...

**yes i do and that again by God's grace and his will.*

*



			if you are born low you are low forever, but Sikhism says that even if one is born in low caste, he/she can reach to the highest spiritual goal. Guru ji also says ( in Baramaha M-1) we are here because of His grace not the Karama
		
Click to expand...

**is there any definition of low caste in sikhism?*


*



Lets just look at your own above quote of Guru Nanak which actually defines the full control of the Lord.

Click to expand...

**yes it does*

*



 Every day, many Sikhs listen to Guru Shabadas that inspire to go only for virtuous way and live in Lord’s love and reject/ignore the rest as perishable because that is useless in Lord’s presence. How many are there who actually go for that? Not many, most of them, read, sing and enjoy the beauty of it but return to their activities like business as usual. Isn’t it? that is the reason Guru ji says to some He wakes up and there are others who are very close to the truth but never get it.

Click to expand...

**true*

*



Then there are others who just have no such practices but once they encounter “soul with virtuous surat” they change totally like Bhagat Dhanna ji, Bhai Ghanyaa Ji . As I have given a quote of Guru Nanak about inexpressible Hukam, it is not that simple to explain because it prevails in the whole system some of which we see and some is still unseen by us. You are ignoring that factor while structuring your questions

Click to expand...

*:yes:
[/FONT]
*



No, it isn’t, karma is also a part of His will.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
*if it is so why do we consider karmas differently and what makes a person good or bad his karmas right? and if karmas r will of God whom will u call a bad guy and whom a saint?*
*[/FONT]* 
*



			It is a good question though.
		
Click to expand...

 [/FONT]*
*it is*
*[/FONT]* 
*



Let’s ponder over it in detail. The [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] is given, actions start as per [/FONT]Surat[/FONT], those actions are individual because of the given [/FONT]surat[/FONT]; however, never forget, they are due to the [/FONT]Surat[/FONT], and [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] is given by the Lord, that is why actions by others become His will. Are you with me?[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
*Golden words. true very true i can c a divine soul inside u*

[/FONT]

*



We represent the infinite Employer, the skills we use are also His gifts( as regular employer provides us some stuff to perform) and the will remains employers, even before our regular employer, some times our own will carries no weight( we suggest and are rejected and we start doing as we were doing before our suggestion). You are forgetting Guru Ji’s answer here. The problem is that we question His ordinance partially instead of understanding its dominance in seen and beyond seen existence, another reason, the doubts pop up.

Click to expand...

*:yes:* got it.*
[/FONT]
*



What is falsehood in the comments above that triggered this quote of Gurbani? I couldn’t understand, forgive me, please elaborate it.[/FONT]
		
Click to expand...

*[/FONT]
*something that clouds truth is falsehood.no one can cloud truth except our ignorance*


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 9, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
pyare bhagat singh ji,:shy:



> Let me present:
> Slicing the onion :8-
> Before, slicing the onion. I could say I will cut the onion, indicating free will or I could say God wills that this onion shall be cut.
> After I cut the onion. I could either say, I've cut the onion or I could say, this sliced onion was the will of God.


hey let me give u an example to deal with explain same thing when a person commits a crime for example if I'm trying to kill someone let it be u:roll:
 can u apply these rule when a person is slicing other person?



> But really does it matter who did what?


in my example it does



> The believer of almighty would say God did it. The atheist would say I did it. But in the end, the onion was in fact, guess? ...sliced.


in my given example who is the criminal God or sainty?



> Now this is a neutral situation and presents no opportunity for the ...slicer to use the concepts to the advantage.( More on this later.)


for my example?




> I think there is no purpose of discussing things like these.


really?:whisling:



> There is no right answer when it comes to picking a side. They are two sides of a coin. If your coin is standing on the edge, it is unstable so, you will switch between the concepts depending on the situation. I think keeping your coin standing is better then having a side facing up all the time. I think this is what the Gurus were aiming for, by taking both sides!
> This switch is required for balance in life! You have to know what side to tip the coin over for different situations to get the results.


hypocrisy,do u mean this?:{-


> Let me present another example of where and how to use the concepts to your advantage:
> Getting an A+ on the report card :advocate:
> The student could either be like that emoticon and get filled with pride, causing him/her to fall on the next test. Or he/she could keep pride away from him/her and chill, which makes him/her do better on the next test.


brother bhagat another example from my side suppose i my giving an entrance examination and i go for it unprepared and i fail who will be considered guilty for my failure God's will or my foolish karmas?


> Now in this case, if the student says I did it, I, I, I, not you! Then pride will result.
> If the student says it is God's Will, then pride is no more. YAY! The student uses the concepts to his/her advantage and tips the coin to reveal God's will causing him to do better.


for my example:rofl!!:



> However, getting a A+ might not fill the student with pride, rather it might motivate him/her. In this case, saying I can do it! would result in a better output next time, rather than saying oh, it was just how God intended it, he might not be so graceful next time. Of course, however, the point is to obtain a positive mindset (_chardi kala _attitude), and through which ever way one can obtain that mindset, one should continue on that way.


 and what if i pass i it would be called will of God

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## pk70 (Dec 9, 2008)

*and what if someone goes against the "[/FONT]**surat[/FONT]**" even then he will be a saint ?(quote Saint Soldier)[/FONT]*
*How one can see without the eyes?[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]*
*is there any definition of low caste in Sikhism?(Saint Soldiers Ji)[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]*
*In Sikhism, low caste is mentioned to defy its purpose as it prevailed in the society otherwise Gurbani rejects it outright.[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ **॥ **ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ **॥ **ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ **॥ **ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ **॥**੧**॥  (83) *
*Salok mėhlā 1. **Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā▫o. **Sabẖnā jī▫ā ikā cẖẖā▫o. **Āphu je ko bẖalā kahā▫e. **Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lekẖai pā▫e. ||1|| *
*Slok, First Guru. **Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. **The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. **Some one may call himself good, **but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak! *
*ਜਾਤਿ** (**ਦਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ) ਤੇ ਨਾਮ (ਵਡੱਪਣ ਦਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ) ਵਿਅਰਥ ਹਨ**, (**ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ) ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ* *ਇਕੋ ਹੀ ਨੁਹਾਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ**, **ਆਤਮਾ ਸਭ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਹੈ)**। (**ਜਾਤੀ ਜਾਂ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇ* *ਆਸਰੇ) ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਵ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਅਖਵਾਏ (ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਚੰਗਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ)**। **ਹੇ* *ਨਾਨਕ! (ਜੀਵ) ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਚੰਗਾ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਜੇ ਲੇਖੇ ਵਿਚ (ਭਾਵ**, **ਸੱਚੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ* *ਵਿਚ ਲੇਖੇ ਵੇਲੇ) ਆਦਰ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰੇ**।**੧**। *
*ਜਾਤ**ੀ ਦੈ ਕਿਆ ਹਥਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਰਖੀਐ **॥**(142)
**Jā**ṯ**ī **ḏ**ai ki▫ā hath sac**ẖ** park**ẖ**ī▫ai.
**What good is social class and status? Truthfulness is measured within.
**ਮਃ **1 *
*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ* *ਜਾਤ**ਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ **॥**(117)
**Gurmuk**ẖ** jā**ṯ** pa**ṯ** sab**ẖ** āpe.
**To the Gurmukh, the Lord Himself is social class, status and all honor.
**ਮਃ **3*
*if it is so why do we consider karmas differently and what makes a person good or bad his karmas right? and if karmas r will of God whom will u call a bad guy and whom a saint?( quote Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]*
*  [/FONT]*
*This question takes us to the beginning where we discussed” Surat”,  as it is given by the Lord, He is still behind the play; however, He also has created individual entities with Surat, they act accordingly and their act becomes their responsibility. This responsibility makes the karma to be considered differently. Separation He created between the individuals and Him(Jap Ji) is enough to understand this riddle. Forget not that the chances are given to become virtuous, choices are made individually. As per Gurbani, He has created Maya also (to let the show go on in its good and bad prospective). When one seeks virtuous Lord or just remains involved in Maya, it is also considered pre ordained writ by Guru Ji[/FONT]*
*ਸੋ ਕਮਾਵੈ* *ਧੁਰ**ਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇ **॥**੧**॥**(222)
**So kamāvai **ḏẖ**ur lik**ẖ**i▫ā ho▫e. ||1||
**People act as they are pre-ordained. ||1||
**ਮਃ **1*
*ਨਾਨਕ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਡੇ* *ਧੁਰ**ਿ ਭਾਗੈ **॥**੪**॥**੧੫**॥**(353)
**Nānak hir**ḏ**ai nām vade **ḏẖ**ur b**ẖ**āgai. ||4||15||
**O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides in the heart, by the greatest pre-ordained destiny. ||4||15||
**ਮਃ **1 **[/FONT]*
*Here Guru Nanak shows his complete surrender to Him, seeing people making choices, doing good or bad, pointing out what is not good or what is bad, still Guru believes that it all falls in His control, no question is asked  “why it is so”[/FONT]*
*What is falsehood in the comments above that triggered this quote of Gurbani? I couldn’t understand, forgive me, please elaborate it(pk70).*
*something that clouds truth is falsehood.no one can cloud truth except our ignoranc( Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]*
*Excellent, I couldn’t put it in better way:yes:. Thanks.[/FONT]*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 9, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> pyare bhagat singh ji,:shy:
> hey let me give u an example to deal with explain same thing when a person commits a crime for example if I'm trying to kill someone let it be u:roll:
> can u apply these rule when a person is slicing other person?
> ...


???

I have no idea where your questions are coming from. I think you have replied with a set mentality to make a mockery of what I said. I don't think you have understood my post, please read and try to understand it again and pose your questions. If anything needs clarifications, don't hesitate to tell me.

Thanks
Bhagat Singh


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## spnadmin (Dec 10, 2008)

Bhagat ji, Sainty ji

The Law of Karma tells us that actions have consequences. It reminds us that we are moral beings because we are accountable for our choices in life. I think we take a wrong turn when we try to figure out what percentage of our actions are self-determined and what percentage is determined by God. Rational analysis won't work. The shabad above makes us immediately conscious of the effects of our _kaaram,_ our deeds,  at the time of death. Who of us is in control of that moment? Do we realize that we have never been in control? We have acted in life as if we were in control. All of our actions, motivated by our belief that we were in control, have consequences -- good and bad. Now, what will happen?

ਜਾਨੀ ਘਤਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਰੁੰਨੇ ਵੀਰ ਸਬਾਏ ॥ 
jaanee ghath chalaaeiaa likhiaa aaeiaa runnae veer sabaaeae ||
This dear soul is driven off, when the pre-ordained Order is received, and all the relatives cry out in mourning.
  
 ਕਾਂਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਥੀਆ ਵੇਛੋੜਾ ਜਾਂ ਦਿਨ ਪੁੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ॥ 
kaaneiaa hans thheeaa vaeshhorraa jaan dhin punnae maeree maaeae ||
The body and the swan-soul are separated, when one's days are past and done, O my mother.
  
 ਜੇਹਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੇਹਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੇਹਾ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
jaehaa likhiaa thaehaa paaeiaa jaehaa purab kamaaeiaa ||
As is one's pre-ordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions.

This is the understanding put forward by Nanak - As is one's preordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions. What will happen? Again we are faced by that interconnected image - His Hukam and our actions together determine what the next stage of spiritual consciousness will be. Whether we return, or whether we do not. This is about burning the ego, about _mukhti_, and not about slicing onions or people. 

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰੰਦਾ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ 
dhhann sirandhaa sachaa paathisaahu jin jag dhhandhhai laaeiaa ||1||
Blessed is the Creator, the True King, who has linked the whole world to its tasks. ||1||

The _sachaa paathisaahu_ has invented it all, and even karma is contained within His Hukam. One meaning of karma is deeds or actions -- tasks. The world is linked to its _kaaram_, its tasks, through His Divine Order. 


ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥ 
saahib simarahu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to pass this way.

Everyone has to pass this way through birth and then death and then we face the consequences of our _kaaram.  _We must eventually move on to our own hereafter. We pass through the entanglements of Maya so quickly (life is short), yet we delude ourselves into thinking we have more control than we really do.
 
ਏਥੈ ਧੰਧਾ ਕੂੜਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਹਾ ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ 
eaethhai dhhandhhaa koorraa chaar dhihaa aagai sarapar jaanaa ||
These false entanglements last for only a few days; then, one must surely move on to the world hereafter.
  
 ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਮਿਹਮਾਣਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਗਾਰਬੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ 
aagai sarapar jaanaa jio mihamaanaa kaahae gaarab keejai ||
He must surely move on to the world hereafter, like a guest; so why does he indulge in ego?

There is really only one way to find peace after a lifetime of self-delusion and the pain that comes from our attachment to ego. This is the way to peace

ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ 
jith saeviai dharageh sukh paaeeai naam thisai kaa leejai ||
Chant the Name of the Lord; serving Him, you shall obtain peace in His Court.


When death is approaching, that is the moment when the meaning of our _kaaram _becomes vividly real. Are we really so foolish to think that we were that important, that we were in control of anything at all? 

ਆਗੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਮੂਲੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ॥ 
aagai hukam n chalai moolae sir sir kiaa vihaanaa ||
In the world hereafter, no one's commands will be obeyed. According to their actions, each and every person proceeds.

The key....

ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਿਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥੨॥ 
saahib simarihu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||2||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to pass this way. ||2||
  
 ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥ 
jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||
*Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him.*

My opinion. The effects of our kaaram are not irreversible. _Mukhti_ comes with His _nadar_, with the glance of His Grace.

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ 
jae this nadhar n aavee th vaath n pushhai kae ||
still, if the Lord does not bless you with His Glance of Grace, then who cares? What is the use?

We can open ourselves up to His grace. Making this choice is potentially within the reach of our consciousness. We are not dumb organisms whose actions are programmed, and we do not have to hold ourselves in contempt.

ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ 
keettaa andhar keett kar dhosee dhos dhharae ||
Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.

To the contrary, He raises us up above the level of worms. And He does not hold us in contempt. He has different, maybe even bigger plans for us. 
  
 ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥ 
naanak niragun gun karae gunavanthiaa gun dhae ||
O Nanak, God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous.

He makes the unworthy virtuous by blessing them with virtue; He bestows virtue on the virtuous just as well. He blesses the sinners and the saints. If we turn away from the possibility of this realization, then we are the ones who have made the wrong choice. Just my thoughts. Forgive me.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 10, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
pk70 ji thank you very much for ur post:yes:
*[/FONT]* 
*



How one can see without the eyes?[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
alright tell me what is the difference between a man who is blind and the other one who has closed his eyes?

*[/FONT]* 

*



In Sikhism, low caste is mentioned to defy its purpose as it prevailed in the society otherwise Gurbani rejects it outright.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
in the previous post u hav written that one born in low caste can become equal was that valid even by this definition?



> *This question takes us to the beginning where we discussed” Surat”, as it is given by the Lord, He is still behind the play; however, He also has created individual entities with Surat, they act accordingly and their act becomes their responsibility. This responsibility makes the karma to be considered differently. Separation He created between the individuals and Him(Jap Ji) is enough to understand this riddle. Forget not that the chances are given to become virtuous, choices are made individually. As per Gurbani, He has created Maya also (to let the show go on in its good and bad prospective). *[/FONT]



[/FONT]thanks for Ur explanation again brother.what are these  individual entities with surat? explain 



> *When one seeks virtuous Lord or just remains involved in Maya, it is also considered pre ordained writ by Guru Ji*



u just mentioned that it is our choice to grab the chances given to become virtuous. but this point seems to be contrary why in this case we don't have a choice?
 



> *ਸੋ ਕਮਾਵੈਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥(222)*
> *So kamāvai ḏẖur likẖi▫ā ho▫e. ||1||*
> *People act as they are pre-ordained. ||1||*
> *ਮਃ 1*
> ...



appropriate shabad:yes:
*



Here Guru Nanak shows his complete surrender to Him, seeing people making choices, doing good or bad, pointing out what is not good or what is bad, still Guru believes that it all falls in His control, no question is asked “why it is so”[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
point noted sir

*[/FONT]*
*[/FONT]* 
*



Excellent, I couldn’t put it in better way:yes:. Thanks.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
the word thanks embarrasses me

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 10, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
bhagat singh ji,



BhagatSingh said:


> ???
> 
> I have no idea where your questions are coming from. I think you have replied with a set mentality to make a mockery of what I said. I don't think you have understood my post, please read and try to understand it again and pose your questions. If anything needs clarifications, don't hesitate to tell me.
> 
> ...


 
I was quiet serious bhagat ji. i have simply compared my example with ur's.
Ur examples were little nd not applied to much extent whereas i have considered bigger examples.:yes:
try nd understand my post nd if possible try to answer all those questions from my side.:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 10, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
addooo2 ji,


> This is the understanding put forward by Nanak - As is one's preordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions. What will happen? Again we are faced by that interconnected image - His Hukam and our actions together determine what the next stage of spiritual consciousness will be. Whether we return, or whether we do not. This is about burning the ego, about _mukhti_, and not about slicing onions or people.


alright let it be but can u answer how?




> The _sachaa paathisaahu_ has invented it all, and even Karma is contained within His Hukam. One meaning of Karma is deeds or actions -- tasks. The world is linked to its _kaaram_, its tasks, through His Divine Order.


true :yes:


> Everyone has to pass this way through birth and then death and then we face the consequences of our _kaaram. _We must eventually move on to our own hereafter. We pass through the entanglements of Maya so quickly (life is short), yet we delude ourselves into thinking we have more control than we really do.


maya exists without the will of god? the answer is no. Then why does it hampers our karmas(which according to you are our actions and are directed by God)?



> When death is approaching, that is the moment when the meaning of our _kaaram _becomes vividly real. Are we really so foolish to think that we were that important, that we were in control of anything at all?


yes some of us are and even Guru Nanak had said we are controlled by gods will.
you wish to include our Guru amongst  those mens?



> We are not dumb organisms whose actions are programmed, and we do not have to hold ourselves in contempt.


yes now that is my point which i am trying to convey from my very first post.



> He makes the unworthy virtuous by blessing them with virtue; He bestows virtue on the virtuous just as well. He blesses the sinners and the saints. If we turn away from the possibility of this realization, then we are the ones who have made the wrong choice. Just my thoughts. Forgive me


oh do u mean that a person who believes in the will of God even if he commits crime of the lowest grade waheguru will forgive him?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~

~~sainty~~
~~wal Guru Nanak~~


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## spnadmin (Dec 10, 2008)

Sainty ji

What I am saying is that the Law of Karma is misunderstood when we limit its understanding to a matter of choices made for us. The Law of Karma has within it an important moral challenge to human beings. Leaving this out leads to a misunderstanding of the relationship between His Hukam and our ability to make choices. 

We can say that Person X has committed a crime and that is part of the Divine Order, and still miss the point about the Law of Karma. Guru Nanak was asking us to rise to the next level and leave behind the idea that accountability for our deeds, good and bad, is beyond our control. 

God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous.

What does that say to you? To me it says that both sinners and saints alike have the potential to choose dharma and reject adharma. According to the Divine Order we are given the ability to make moral choices. And according to the Divine Order we will be held accountable for our choices. 

ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਸਚੈ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
  sabhanaa kaa dhar laekhaa sachai shhoottas naam suhaavaniaa ||3||
  Everyone's account is kept in the True Court, and through the Beauty of the Naam, they are saved. ||3|

Why would He hold us accountable, or offer mukhti, if our choices were meaningless and did not matter? This is the unique  message of morality by Nanak Dev ji.


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## pk70 (Dec 10, 2008)

alright tell me what is the difference between a man who is blind and the other one who has closed his eyes? 9quote Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
*Being blind is to have a disability of not seeing in realty, while the one who is having eye-sight but closes eyes, is in denial to acknowledge that he/she sees.[/FONT]*
    in the[/FONT]*In Sikhism, low caste is mentioned to defy its purpose as it prevailed in the society otherwise Gurbani rejects it outright.(pk70)*
   previous post u hav written that one born in low caste can become equal was that valid even by this definition?(Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
*In previous post it was stated that in Sikhism even being born low caste(prevailed caste and declared by the society as of low caste) can reach to the highest peak, please read what Guru says[/FONT]*
*ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਾਰੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਇਕ ਗਾਇ **॥ 
**Raviḏās cẖamār usṯaṯ kare har kīraṯ nimakẖ ik gā▫e. 
**Ravi Daas, the leather-worker, praised the Lord, and sang the Kirtan of His Praises each and every instant. 
**ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ **॥**੨**॥ 
**Paṯiṯ jāṯ uṯam bẖa▫i▫ā cẖār varan pa▫e pag ā▫e. ||2|| 
**Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||*
* This is a statement that defies all standard of a society that is inflicted with caste system[/FONT]*. [/FONT]*It is a direct slap on those who claim that they belong to high caste due to the Lord’s will. Ravidas whom they called “Chamar”(Low caste), walked over them in spiritual pursuit and succeeded and so called of high caste remained in quagmire of Maya, caste didn’t help them, so it is just worthless and an illusion.[/FONT]*
  thanks for [/FONT]Ur[/FONT] explanation again brother.what are these individual entities with [/FONT]surat[/FONT]? Explain(saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
*You, others and me[/FONT]*
*When one seeks virtuous Lord or just remains involved in Maya, it is also considered pre ordained writ by Guru Ji(pk70)*
u just mentioned that it is our choice to grab the chances given to become virtuous. but this point seems to be contrary why in this case we don't have a choice?](Saint Soldier Ji)  [/FONT]
*Given Surat comes with a capability of making choices, Surat is given by the Lord, whatever the choices are made also get credited to Him. Confusion comes only when we look at the canvas partially. Thanks for asking and all I have answered as per my limited [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] given by the Lord.[/FONT]
* 
*Note: just want to address another point aad ji pointed out (It is supported by Gurbani)[/FONT]*
  He makes the unworthy virtuous by blessing them with virtue; He bestows virtue on the virtuous just as well. He blesses the sinners and the saints. If we turn away from the possibility of this realization, then we are the ones who have made the wrong choice. Just my thoughts. Forgive me(quote  aad0002 Ji)
  oh do u mean that a person who believes in the will of God even if he commits crime of the lowest grade waheguru will forgive him?(saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
*Its answer goes back to Mool Mantra, His being “Nirvair(beyond animosity)” this virtuoso quality of the Lord prevails through His all commands, see Guru’s faith in Him on His being Nirvair when the sinner makes a choice to turn to the Lord.[/FONT]*
*ਅਪਰਾਧੀ**ਪਾਪੀ**ਉਧਰੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਖਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਰਾਮ **॥**੪**॥**੩**॥
**Aprā**ḏẖ**ī pāpī u**ḏẖ**re merī jin**ḏ**u**ṛ**ī▫e jan Nānak k**ẖ**in har rā**ṯ**e rām. ||4||3||
**Even sinners are carried across, O my soul, if they are imbued with the Lord's* Name, even for an instant, O servant Nanak. ||4||3||
ਮਃ 4   -
*ਪਾਪੀ**ਮੁਕਤੁ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਵਾਸਾ **॥
**Pāpī muka**ṯ** karā▫e āp gavā▫e nij g**ẖ**ar pā▫i▫ā vāsā.
**Even sinners are liberated, by eradicating their egotism; they obtain a home within their own heart.
**ਮਃ **3*


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## spnadmin (Dec 10, 2008)

This part of our conversation, sainty ji, intrigues me. 

 Quote:
_The sachaa paathisaahu has invented it all, and even Karma is contained within His Hukam. One meaning of Karma is deeds or actions -- tasks. The world is linked to its kaaram, its tasks, through His Divine Order. _ 

true :yes:

  Quote:
_Everyone has to pass this way through birth and then death and then we face the consequences of our kaaram. We must eventually move on to our own hereafter. We pass through the entanglements of Maya so quickly (life is short), yet we delude ourselves into thinking we have more control than we really do._ 

maya exists without the will of god? the answer is no. Then why does it hampers our karmas(which according to you are our actions and are directed by God)?

What I am thinking right now? Maybe it is this.

The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. It is part of the Divine Order. He links the world to its tasks. The Law of Karma is often understood to mean that life now and in the hereafter is a pay-back. You get what you deserve, now and in the hereafter. That is an understanding of the Law of Karma that is has been distorted by Western thinking. Even the ancients who wrote the Vedas did not understand the Law of Karma in that way. The Law of Karma is a cosmic principle  -- a law of action and reaction -- everything we do has effects or consequences. Akaal Purakh has ordained it that we can reflect on the consequences of our actions.

Akaal who is the Creator of Everything has ordained it that we can make choices. We can choose to meditate upon His Name. And if we do not make this choice, then the consequence is to suffer the disease of coming and going. We can choose to move beyond Maya, and if we do not , then the consequence is to fall behind. We can choose vidya, and if we do not then we stagnate and rot in avidya. Yes, Maya hampers our ability to make these choices. Yet we can also see that by choosing to burn the ego we have the possibility of moving forward and beyond Maya. 

The Satguru is not pulling our strings. It is His Hukam that we have choices and it is His Hukam that there be consequences for the choices we make. I chose the shabad for this reason. The closer we are to death (whether our own or that of another) the more likely it is that we see what we have wasted in ego. The more likely it is that we see the play that He has laid out for us (the choices and the consequences).


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## spnadmin (Dec 11, 2008)

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ॥੧੦॥ 
RaamkaliPaatshaahi10||

 ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਖ ਲਾਗੋ ॥ 
Praaniparam purakh pakh laago||

ਸੋਵਤ ਕਹਾ ਮੋਹ ਨਿੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਮੈ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਸੁਚਿਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਜਾਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Sovat kahaa moh nindraa mai kah-hoon suchit havaijaajo||1|| Rahaao||

 ਔਰਨ ਕਹ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਤੋਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ ਨ ਲਾਗੋ ॥ 
Auran kah updeshat hai pasu tohe prabhdh na laage||

 ਸਿੰਚਤ ਕਹਾ ਪਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਯਨ ਕਹ ਕਬਹੁ ਬਿਖੈ ਰਸ ਤਯਾਗੋ ॥੧॥ 
Sinchat kahaa pare bikhiyan kah kab-hu bikhai ras tyaago||1||
 
ਕੇਵਲ ਕਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਸੇ ਚੀਨਹੁ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੋ ॥ 
Kaval karam bharam ke cheenoh dharam karam anuraago||
 
ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕਰੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕੋ ਪਰਮ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਿ ਭਾਗੋ ॥੨॥ 
Sangrah(i) karo sadaa simran ko param paap taj(i) bhaago||2||

 ਜਾ ਤੇ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਨਹਿ ਭੇਟੈ ਕਾਲ ਜਾਲ ਤੇ ਤਾਗੋ ॥ 
Jaa te dookh paap nah(i) bhetai kaal jaal te taago||
 
ਜੌ ਸੁਖ ਚਾਹੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਭਨ ਕੌ ਤੌ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਰਸ ਪਾਗੋ ॥੩॥੩॥ 
Jau such chaaho sadaa sabhan kau tau har(i) ke raspaago||3||3||


O man, fall on the Feet of the Supreme Being. Why do you remain asleep in the intoxication of varied attachments of Maya? Wake up and look to the Reality. (1. Pause) 



You preach others, while you remain ever ignorant like quadruped. What is the use of accumulation of the costly material things? Abandon the way of sinful life. (1) 



Accept the Divine Love, consider all works leading you to the darkness. Engage yourself toward observance of the Moral Law (Dharma). Thus accumulate the wealth of the Divine Love, and stay away from sinful life. (2) 



Live ever with God, which way make you rise above all sins and pains connected therewith. You will thus break the noose of Death. The Lord God's Name gives peace to all at all times; remain ever absorbed in Him. (3)


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 11, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
addooo2 ji ,
What  you are trying to say is that the law of karma is nothing when compared to the will of God. but hows this possible alright for the time being even if i agree to your thoughts can you explain on what accounts are we brought to the next birth is this also decided by the lord's will and if so why?
alright add ji let me consider an example :yes:
suppose i join the Aryan brotherhood and kill half of California's population . ur saying that i will do this with the will of God and that even if IL be sentenced to death IL be free from the bondage of life,the cycle of births in the after life?

wasn't my first post crystal clear about this topic?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## spnadmin (Dec 11, 2008)

Sainty ji

Your first post was crystal clear. But the example you give above doesn't quite get to the heart of the issue of the Law of Karma as Guru Nanak explains it -- just in my humble opinion of course.

Consider this story and maybe it will illustrate why I am taking a different perspective.
_
On seeing the atrocities committed in Saiyidpur, Bhai Mardana questioned Satguru Nanak Sahib Ji how it came to be that alongside the wrong doers in the city, innocents were also resigned to perish in the most awful manner. Satguru Ji asked Bhai Mardana to take rest under the shade of a nearby tree and that his question would be answered when he awoke. During his sleep, a drop of honey fell from the tree onto Bhai Mardana and ants came to feed upon it. In his sleepy stupor, Bhai Mardana slapped at his chest killing most if not all of the ants. When he awoke, Satguru Ji asked him what he had done. He exclaimed that as he slept an ant had bitten him and so he had killed them all. Satguru Ji explained that in this very way, the residents of Saiyidpur were also killed._

Sometimes the things that happen to us are not because of our kaarams. The are the consequences of the deeds of another. We are not morally accountable for the outcome; not did we bring the outcome on ourselves in this life or another. Think of Guru Arjan Dev. Was it because of his kaarams that he was tortured to death? Do you think that someone could be so evil in a past life that he would become our 5th Guru in his time?  Or was  what happened to him the consequence of the evil kaarams of another person, and other people?

Under the Law of Karma we are not responsible for the cards we are dealt. Under the Law of Karma we are responsible for how we play them. Upon thinking of how Guru Arjan Dev ji went to his death, the meaning of karma in sikhi becomes itself crystal clear.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 11, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
ultimate post addooo2 ji
Even i have said the same thing the situation we are in is created by Lord and how we react to it is our karma hereby not an action but a reaction and so the only doer is Lord himself.
thank you addoo2 ji for such a post!:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## spnadmin (Dec 11, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> ultimate post addooo2 ji
> Even i have said the same thing the situation we are in is created by Lord and how we react to it is our karma hereby not an action but a reaction and so the only doer is Lord himself.
> thank you addoo2 ji for such a post!:yes:
> ...



You are welcome sainty ji, 

But there is another problem. My understanding is that He is the Creator of Everything. The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. He deals the cards and He gives us Choices. 

In the janamsakhi, Mardana goes to sleep. Half awake and half asleep he kills some ants. Half awake and half asleep is a metaphor for ignorance, for remaining in avidya. In avidya atrocities are committed in Saiyidpur. It is in avidya that we choose cruelty. So why do we choose to remain in avidya? Why are we cruel? 

There are some questions that still need asking.


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## pk70 (Dec 12, 2008)

But there is another problem. My understanding is that He is the Creator of Everything. The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. He deals the cards and He gives us Choices. 

In the janamsakhi, Mardana goes to sleep. Half awake and half asleep he kills some ants. Half awake and half asleep is a metaphor for ignorance, for remaining in avidya. In avidya atrocities are committed in Saiyidpur. It is in avidya that we choose cruelty. So why do we choose to remain in avidya? Why are we cruel? 

There are some questions that still need asking.(quote aad0002 Ji)

*Aad Jio,*
* I have struggled a lot to get answer to this,  Gurbani is my source and the answer I got from it, at least has satisfied me. The more Guru Teachings are practically practiced, the more unambiguous concept of His Hukam becomes. *

*In His creation, there is a brain that carries all kinds of emotions, out of them, some are displayed and some are suppressed.(Why, it has also explanation) They grow as per environments (because it is per His Hukam to be in them) to different levels. Some emotions come as ego forces.  It’s the ego that triggers many other emotions like anger, greed and possessiveness and subsequently our reactions. We choose them to prefer as per given **Surat** because that is the only thing we have in our “choice-kingdom” The given **Surat** is changed as per environments He puts us in (and it is preordained.). The five primal forces, commonly known as negative forces become positive ones in a person who gets imbued totally with the Lord because the separating power (fives) from Him is negated, all emotions get leveled. One can live right here while being united with the Lord.*
* Existence in full form of these fives affects the “**Surat**”(reflected by environments as well),in their choice for “Aviddya” remains dominant. Aviddya is denial of the truth, Here Karma(deeds) become dependent of Aviddya, it elevates the fives that trigger anger, ego, greed and cruelty. It happens due to the surat which doesn’t remain aware of the truth, truth about our being here for limited time, truth of loving the Lord, truth about His prevailing Ordinance, truth about His being permeated all over. HE sets all emotions in the brain. Some time I compare the **Surat** described by Guru ji as a computer chip, computer is bound to that chip, if chip is changed or modified, actions change. In computer it is changed or modified by the engineer but in humans, it is only changed or modified with His Ordinance like through the True Guru and also through the company of others (environment). The Lord magnifies “the self” within and the Lord reduces it too, all He does through environment (His creation) as He wills. So even choices become His play*
*ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ **॥ **ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ **॥ **ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ **॥ **ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ **॥ *
*I have no power to speak and no power to remain silent. **I have no power to beg and no power to give. **I have no strength to live and no strength to die. **I have no strength to acquire empire and wealth, which stir up a commotion in the mind. *
*ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ **॥ **ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ **॥ **ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ **॥**੩੩**॥ *
*I have no power to gain understanding of Divine Knowledge and Lord's meditation. **I have no power to find the way to escape from the world. **He, in whose hand the power is, exercises and beholds it. **O Nanak! By one's own strength, none can be good or bad. *
*Guru ji again leads us to His infinite Ordinance and advises us to accept it as it comes and start improving ourselves by considering only His Will as the ultimate truth. The riddle is there because we are often distracted by many things and remain unaware of it, and we make our choice also being unaware of the fact that all we do is still fulfilling His Will. Why? Here is the answer*
*ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ **॥ **ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ **॥ *
*As it pleases Him and as is His order, He makes them walk. **He beholds them but they see Him not. This is the greatest wonder. *
*These are my humble views expressed with the help of Gurbani in context of your question.*


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 12, 2008)

Sat shri akal, thy saints of my lord,
add ji,:2:


> But there is another problem. My understanding is that He is the Creator of Everything. The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. He deals the cards and He gives us Choices.


no doubt he is the creator he has created the law of karma. yes he deals the cards and choices are provided by him alone but at the end it is we who play our chance and with our will.



> In the janamsakhi, Mardana goes to sleep. Half awake and half asleep he kills some ants. Half awake and half asleep is a metaphor for ignorance, for remaining in avidya. In avidya atrocities are committed in Saiyidpur. It is in avidya that we choose cruelty.


avidya is of two kind one when we deny the truth and second when we are ignorant about it both of them lead to the same path of destruction.



> So why do we choose to remain in avidya? Why are we cruel?


i liked pk70's explanation about the concept of surat as it solves such matters although it is not able to clarify the law of karma.my opinion about this is that getting vidya or being in the state of avidya is in our hands but only if God wills so.we are not always cruel our cruelties are judged on the bases of someones weakness and so the weak people are always harassed.



> There are some questions that still need asking.


 Some of them doesn't Guru ji answered before we actually thought about them:}{}{}:

i would love to comment on that saiyidpur incident brought to light by you add ji
there was a similar mis-happening in Lahore when mughals had attacked around 1520 and Guru Nanak had written such a beautiful composition it brought tears to my eyes at first :8-:inca:mughals

in that composition our father is questioning God :}{}{}:
here are some of its stanzas-
Karta tu sabna ka soye je sakta sakte ko mare ta man ros na hoye
khurafan khasmana kiya hindusatn daraya aape karta dosh na laiye jamkar mughal chadaya aite maar paiye kurlande tain ki taras na aaya ........sorry if i missed some line to my knowledge as i remember its complete.
translation--your are the only doer lord how can someone kill others without your will? 
You have saved khurasan and terrified India. creator !since you do not take the blame (of punishing evil-doers) on yourself.You have sent mughals and Baber as your regent of death.The people were tortured so ruthlessly that they wailed and cried out to heaven. Did it not awaken any pity for them in you, o ,lord?

and so aaji mardana didn't killed the ants he was just a regent of death for ants. and ants were killed by God's will.


pk70 ji,:2:

*



I have struggled a lot to get answer to this, Gurbani is my source and the answer I got from it, at least has satisfied me.

Click to expand...

*is there anything in this world that can satisfy someone? no at least nothing can satisfy the will of a learner to learn .
*



			The more Guru Teachings are practically practiced, the more unambiguous concept of His Hukam becomes.
		
Click to expand...

*

*



In His creation, there is a brain that carries all kinds of emotions, out of them, some are displayed and some are suppressed.(Why, it has also explanation) They grow as per environments (because it is per His Hukam to be in them) to different levels.

Click to expand...

*

*



			Some emotions come as ego forces. It’s the ego that triggers many other emotions like anger, greed and possessiveness and subsequently our reactions.
		
Click to expand...

*tell me as per your saying who is the one to provide us  ego?

*



The five primal forces, commonly known as negative forces become positive ones in a person who gets imbued totally with the Lord because the separating power (fives) from Him is negated, all emotions get leveled.

Click to expand...

*the state of jiwat mukat:yes:


*



Existence in full form of these fives affects the “Surat”(reflected by environments as well),in their choice for “Aviddya” remains dominant. 

Click to expand...

*it is not in our hands to control the five evils?OMG come on

*



Aviddya is denial of the truth, Here Karma(deeds) become dependent of Aviddya, it elevates the fives that trigger anger, ego, greed and cruelty.

Click to expand...

*as i have said earlier avidya is of two types one when we deny the truth knowingly and the other when we are ignorant about it that is we dont know what the truth is. the second point is true but not completely .karma is a reaction to God's will and it is certainly affected by the five evils(given if a person had them).

*



			It happens due to the surat which doesn’t remain aware of the truth, truth about our being here for limited time, truth of loving the Lord, truth about His prevailing Ordinance, truth about His being permeated all over.
		
Click to expand...

*most of us are in the first kind of avidya that is we don't accept the truth.


*



 HE sets all emotions in the brain. Some time I compare the Surat described by Guru ji as a computer chip, computer is bound to that chip, if chip is changed or modified, actions change. In computer it is changed or modified by the engineer but in humans, it is only changed or modified with His Ordinance like through the True Guru and also through the company of others (environment). The Lord magnifies “the self” within and the Lord reduces it too, all He does through environment (His creation) as He wills. So even choices become His play

Click to expand...

*first thing mens are not as sensible and as obedient as computers we work on our senses.and second thing to provide choices is his will but to accept them or not is ours.

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## spnadmin (Dec 12, 2008)

sainty ji, pk70 ji

Both of your responses deserve in-depth consideration. More than my weak response right now. I will go back and think more carefully about what each of you say above. Just one thought again in the form of questions.

We seem to agree that He gives us choices. Questions.  Does he make the choices for us? Or, is it rather that He knows what choices we will make?


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 12, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
In my opinion he already knows what choice we are going to make.
he is the all-knowing Lord after all.:yes:details later on.......


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## spnadmin (Dec 12, 2008)

sainty ji

You sound like me now -- can't talk, have to run, details later!

Want to ask the question a better way. He gives us choices. He knows the choices we will make. Does He make the choice for us? in other words, are our decisions  determined for us in His Hukam?


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 12, 2008)

The will is the driving force to mans actions and thoughts.  One must first understand what ‘Will’ is prior to defining ‘Free Will’.

What triggers paths of thought processes, prompts certain patterns. The subconscious contains ingrained data derived from past and inherited experience and the negative or positive reactions programmed to be generated by certain paths of thinking, words, visuals, situations.  Example: I say rat, one person will think of a rather nasty rodent, another with an ingrained fear of rodents will literally bristle with fear and anticipation of the appearance of such a vile creature, some may have a pet rat and smile at the thought of their little furry creature. Ditto snakes, I find them awesome magnificent creatures, those living in areas where snakes kill and endanger life will exclaim and be filled with fear of the presence or visual of a snake. Each word triggers a neuron reacting against environment, matter in subconscious and nurturing.  Each response is generated by personal experience and reactions are based upon a multiple of affecting factors.

The task of life is to master one’s own will. Free will is not something we demand from governments or those who control society, rather it is a virtue gained by self realisation and understanding of one’s own behavioural patterns. The most contentious topic is morality. What is liberation, emancipation and the freedom to behave freely without hindrance or constraints. The philosopher will argue the highest state of spiritual ascension is to reason governing will, and control and mastery of will thereby.

The modern generation affluent and educated seek to be free of societal traditions and values, to indulge their whims and wiles. The wise will argue in favour of the civilised, that only when man has mind over matter, can he be truly free. They who are spurred to action without consideration for consequence in an irrational and blind pandering of the will cannot be considered free. 

The sins anger, gluttony, ambition envy or pride are all derivative of an ill considered force of will. If the glutton is mindful of how much consumption his energy output quotient requires he would not rashly consume any greater than his requirement. Man driven by anger does not heed sense and reason but only the satiation of an emotion with no consideration for the ramifications thereof. Free will is fully covered in the Bani.

Karma is mostly ones personal peace and general disposition. A truly peaceful and honest person self illuminated cannot be ill fated unless he allows an adverse occurrence to taint and rob his peace rendering him a sullen and angry man, whereby all react towards him with trepidation and hesitation. This is personal responsibility. Collective Karma is being part of a society accursed and ill fated and acquiring negativity of that company upon oneself, this is a lesson to maintain good company and counsel at all a times to avoid accruing bad karma by violent and angry reactions of habitual bad behaviour. 

Destiny plays a part. Some are eternal souls of the fourth dimension trapped within the three realms, These souls, and I am one, know our end and destiny, our fate as we have lived many times before. Is it self fulfilling prophecy or a cycle of recurring patterns that cannot change because we have not changed our thinking, outlook and opinions haven’t changed. The negative forces become familiar and prejudge our reactions trapping us in a cycle of pain and sufferance by an evident evil through no fault of our own. We have lived upstanding lives and proven in virtue, chastity and fidelity, and this has trapped us as mastheads of an ill gotten pirate ship seeking its salvation through our turning of the grindstone, it is clearly visible to see... 

Life Is ...


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## pk70 (Dec 12, 2008)

is there anything in this world that can satisfy someone? no at least nothing can satisfy the will of a learner to learn (Saint Soldier Ji).[/FONT]
  Above my statement was very personal, I have no question about systematic treatment Gurbani provides to its followers, and I am totally satisfied; in case there is some one whose will in pursuit of learning, is in questioning process, I have nothing against it. Hope you will respect personal satisfaction part.[/FONT]
   [/FONT]
*In His creation, there is a brain that carries all kinds of emotions, out of them, some are displayed and some are suppressed.(Why, it has also explanation) They grow as per environments (because it is per His Hukam to be in them) to different levels(pk70).*






(Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
  Please discuss the structure of the brain with a Neurologist; he will express it well align to the above idea. Every thing He has boxed in the brain which also falls in the context of [/FONT]Surat[/FONT]. When we live for the society, we suppress our emotions to please it or being afraid of it. Contrary to it, the one who lives for the Lord never does that but expresses as he feels about the truth. We have examples of many enlightened ones who did it without fear. Environment sculptures the growth of the brain in all areas. Even genius remains ignorant if his/her company[/FONT] is [/FONT]of ignorant (exceptions can be there when a genius changes the company instead of becoming part of it) All this falls under His Ordinance as we already accepted Guru’s statement about His Ordinance.[/FONT]
   [/FONT]
*Existence in full form of these fives affects the “**Surat**”(reflected by environments as well),in their choice for “Aviddya” remains dominant.(pk70)*[/FONT]
  it is not in our hands to control the five evils?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 come on [/FONT]
*Here I have not said what you are stating or questioning; I have stated that if these fives remain in full strength, choice of Aviddya remains dominant, what it has to do with the controlling fives?[/FONT]*
   [/FONT]
*Aviddya is denial of the truth, Here Karma(deeds) become dependent of Aviddya, it elevates the fives that trigger anger, ego, greed and cruelty(pk70)*[/FONT]
  as i have said earlier avidya is of two types one when we deny the truth knowingly and the other when we are ignorant about it that is we dont know what the truth is. the second point is true but not completely .Karma is a reaction to God's will and it is certainly affected by the five evils(given if a person had them).[/FONT]
*How you can divide a concept in to two different ones? Karma is not only reaction but actual deed depending upon the given [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]**, and the given [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]** is His creation-Will. They are affected by five ones if HE wills (again it is Him that causes the deeds /actions/reactions etc). [/FONT]*
   [/FONT]
*HE sets all emotions in the brain. Some time I compare the **Surat** described by Guru ji as a computer chip, computer is bound to that chip, if chip is changed or modified, actions change. In computer it is changed or modified by the engineer but in humans, it is only changed or modified with His Ordinance like through the True Guru and also through the company of others (environment). The Lord magnifies “the self” within and the Lord reduces it too, all He does through environment (His creation) as He wills. So even choices become His play(pk70)*
  first thing mens are not as sensible and as obedient as computers we work on our senses.and second thing to provide choices is his will but to accept them or not is ours.(Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
   [/FONT]
*It is sad to notice that you have not understood the example of computer chip as you didn’t understand the delivery of the performance in director’s example in the past. Where did I say humans are like computers, or chip acts completely as [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]** does? I compared something that [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]** and the chip have. Obviously chip is different than [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]** but it has something that triggers actions, same way [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]** has something that causes actions/reactions. If the chip is modified, actions change, same way if [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]** is modified, actions change. What it has to do with the sensibility? Please take only essence of the example than taking used words as factual comparison.[/FONT]*
*What you call “senses” Guru ji call it [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]**, what is the difference? Whatever He does, He does it through given [/FONT]**Surat[/FONT]**” either by modifying it or keeping it as it is. He preordains the atmosphere(environment) to keep it as it is or to modify it. Why? Guru ji doesn’t ask this question and neither do I have any curiosity to question His Will in this context. You are where you are, there is no power in you to get out of it unless He doesn’t want. As quoted before.[/FONT]*
*ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ **॥ **ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ **॥*[/FONT]
*I have no strength to live and no strength to die. **I have no strength to acquire empire and wealth, which stir up a commotion in the mind**.(note**, translator took literal meaning of “shor” actually it means display of ego feeding claims by shouting "power of I”)*[/FONT]


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 13, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
pk70 ji,
*



Being blind is to have a disability of not seeing in realty, while the one who is having eye-sight but closes eyes, is in denial to acknowledge that he/she sees.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]*
yes,now compare this to God's will and our ignorance. in the above example it is God's will for that person to be blind(agyani) and in the second case it is mans will to be ignorant(agyani).but the net result is that both of them are not able to c(agyani's) 
[/FONT] 



> *Given Surat comes with a capability of making choices, Surat is given by the Lord, whatever the choices are made also get credited to Him. Confusion comes only when we look at the canvas partially. Thanks for asking and all I have answered as per my limited [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] given by the Lord.[/FONT]*



[/FONT]your concept of surat is admirable and i applaud it but it is not applicable to that extent you think it is specially when it deals with the law of karma or is it that I'm not getting it wait il read your previous posts.
[/FONT] 
[/FONT] 


> oh do u mean that a person who believes in the will of God even if he commits crime of the lowest grade waheguru will forgive him?(sainty)[/FONT]
> *Its answer goes back to Mool Mantra, His being “Nirvair(beyond animosity)” this virtuoso quality of the Lord prevails through His all commands, see Guru’s faith in Him on His being Nirvair when the sinner makes a choice to turn to the Lord.[/FONT]*


[/FONT]but when a sinner is imbued in the love of Lord's name he is a sinner any more?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 13, 2008)

It is said true wisdom cannot hate for it expects no greater a behaviour from a person of whatso a calibre. It is foolish to expect pearls from herds, or grace from the mean, and to hold such expectations if to be blinkered and partial sighted.

Ignorance is a condition created by ones lack of good counsel, poor upbringing, or ingrained anger and hatred. It is not willed by God but fate and circumstance. The two are separates determiners of one’s plight and destiny in life.

Accusations of paapi persons or sinners are subjective. One commits an offense in anger, without the wherewithal of one’s senses, a temporal lapse in good judgment are forgivable. To commit sinful acts or words with malicious intent wilfully impervious and boastful of one being beyond reproach or above judgment are the true paapi. 

Understanding of why certain people behave in a particular manner not only protects and immunises your own sense to the subjections of such people, but also creates a peaceful aura disinclined to rise to the folly of such meagre folk.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 13, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
jeetijohal ji,



> It is said true wisdom cannot hate for it expects no greater a behaviour from a person of whatso a calibre. It is foolish to expect pearls from herds, or grace from the mean, and to hold such expectations if to be blinkered and partial sighted.


In this world to expect from others is itself a foolishness and one can only expect something from Lord no one else.




> Ignorance is a condition created by ones lack of good counsel, poor upbringing, or ingrained anger and hatred. It is not willed by God but fate and circumstance. The two are separates determiners of one’s plight and destiny in life.


even if you counsel fools and manmukh's very few of them will understand what it is to be enlightened and to be in the company of mens of Lord and moreover it requires an enlighten soul to enlighten other like only a lighted lamp can  light other's.




> Accusations of paapi persons or sinners are subjective. One commits an offense in anger, without the wherewithal of one’s senses, a temporal lapse in good judgment are forgivable. To commit sinful acts or words with malicious intent wilfully impervious and boastful of one being beyond reproach or above judgment are the true paapi.


no my brother. even if we commit an offense in anger we will have to pay for it and this is because God has provided each one of us with a strength to fight and revolt against the five evils inside us and outside us. And let me tell you we are conscious when we commit mistakes we cannot blame anger,greed or lust because our karmas are partially affected by them rest is done on our part.




> Understanding of why certain people behave in a particular manner not only protects and immunises your own sense to the subjections of such people, but also creates a peaceful aura disinclined to rise to the folly of such meagre folk.


to understand such people you need to understand their psychology  and why do we need to protect ourselves from subjection to such people Lord is always there to protect .bhagat kabir gives a wonderful example to explain this he says even though Snake lives on sandalwood but it cannot affect its fragrance in the same way we have to stay with them with an aim to understand them ,help them Lord is always there to protect us.

~~sainty~~:whisling:
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 14, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
addooo2 ji,
It seems that you are practicing for a marathon in the near future and to achieve your aim you have chosen this thread as your practice ground.you simply come question us and run back.i was kidding  plz do reply to my previous post it was meant to answer all your questions and IL be posting yet another post to give a blow to pk70 ji's "surat" theory.


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## spnadmin (Dec 14, 2008)

sainty ji

Sometimes it feels like a marathon. Actually I run out of steam from time to time. I posted a lot on the Law of karma thread because I like the topic. Other threads I just make sure that people are not preparing for a brush war.  I may not disagree with pk70's surat theory. Fact is, humbly I confess, that surat is a concept that I do not grasp as well as I should.

Then I got busy on the yoga thread. So probably I will respond but need to get some pranayama. Hope you don't mind.

BTW -- Which post number was it. I am lost too.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 14, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
addooo2 ji,
post number 34 on page 4


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## spnadmin (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks! While I am trying to figure this out you should go to this link and listen to the great music that loads on the website. A conference on surat.

Surat '08 Sikh Conference : January 18 - 21, 2008


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## pk70 (Dec 14, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> addooo2 ji,
> It seems that you are practicing for a marathon in the near future and to achieve your aim you have chosen this thread as your practice ground.you simply come question us and run back.i was kidding  plz do reply to my previous post it was meant to answer all your questions and IL be posting yet another post to give a blow to pk70 ji's "surat" theory.



*Saint Soldier ji

"Surat theory" is not mine, it is stated by Guru Nanak, I just stand by what Guru says, if aad ji, you disagree with it, it is fine with me; however, I strictly believe what Guru says"the Karma and the reaction(even as per your new meaning of karma=reaction) are well expressed by Guru ji, I really do not need to get into hair-splitting. Thanks for bearing with me, agreeing and disagreeing with me because it also falls into"Guru's Surat Theory" if you will.*
*ਏਕਾ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਜੇਤੇ  ਹੈ  ਜੀਅ  ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is one awareness among all created beings.
ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਵਿਹੂਣਾ  ਕੋਇ  ਨ  ਕੀਅ  ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
None have been created without this awareness.
ਜੇਹੀ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਤੇਹਾ  ਤਿਨ  ਰਾਹੁ  ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is their awareness, so is their way.
ਲੇਖਾ  ਇਕੋ  ਆਵਹੁ  ਜਾਹੁ  ॥੧॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
According to the the account of our action** we come and go . ||1||

Therefore I rest my debate with above Guru Shabad, my only inspiration.  You guys can continue. Thanks for sharing all your views.*


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 15, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
 Sardar pk70 ji,
let us suppose that your understanding is right and true about the surat.
now plz give some care to whatever IL be saying.
according to you surat is our understanding of this world and in a word our sense.right? and it develops with reaction to our environment and all this with God's will.right? 
now have you ever seen a paralytic man?  if not let me tell you i have why do you think God is so cruel that he will not give him a chance to have a surat like others? how does God decides what kind of surat will one get?who will become a good man though good surat and who a mob through lower form of surat?
don't you think our father said we are all equal before God how will God make such choices? 
enough of questioning for today i hope UL give a reply and if you will IL present more views.

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 15, 2008)

Surat, or consciousness is on four levels, sometimes referred to as dimensions. The physical perception of the world about you has two views, pre-programmed to seek or ignore certain apparitions. The conscious is mans innate ability to observe, perceive according to his mental condition. E.g., when we are angry we find all things annoying; the slightest matter rouses us to fury because our consciousness and peace is disturbed. However when we are happy, nothing can erase our joy, no matter what averse occurrences may arise we overcome them sensibly, because our conscious is tuned to the positive dimension.

The conscience is Gods counsel usually personalised by one’s own life experiences and pastoral tuition. It guides and leads the mind in strong willed thinking people. Some are deaf to their own conscience and rendered mere pawns for any prevailing bad will to govern and coax into wrongdoing. They who are governed by a strong moral conscience have little need of any other modes of counsel and are the truly free.

Subconscious is the part of our brain where all knowledge both inherited and living is stored. It is what lies in the subconscious that motivates action, reaction, speech and preferences. The unconscious is the part of the brain that is driven by will over reason, will itself may be driven by anger, rage, or external influences against the best interests of the person. 

Super consciousness is sensory perception of all matters universal, where one can rationalise all reasoning in a quantum, cosmologically cognitive manner. The interdependent correlation of all things and their effect upon the surrounding actions and thought processes. Mans brain sis nurtured with many patterns of thoughts, and each reaches a slightly different truth because all minds are cocooned within their own thinking, ingrained by their own experiences and introverted, i.e. seeing by ones personal view than the world collective view.

Supreme Consciousness is God consciousness, to view the world with God's perception, understand all the mysteries of life and the world without study or travel. This is God given.


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## seeker3k (Dec 15, 2008)

Law of karma? As we are told that we are born dew to our karama from the past life.It does not make logic sense, we are told that all the bad and good things happned to us due to our doing in past to other people and how we lived our life in the past. Here is why I say it is not logic. If I steal some thing from your house, that will be sin (pap) so I have to repay u in your and my next life.Why cant it be that in our last life you took stole fro me in our last life and now I am making it even. There is no way one can know/
Next if we are born due to our karama and we are reaping from our last life's karma. Then there is not going to be next life. Becouse we are not creating new karma, all we are doing is reaping our parst karama. This is hiduism way of explaining and controling people. Now the sikhs, bhai jis doing the same thing. It is all to control people.In hinduism pandat will recite mantra to fininsh bad karma. Now bhaiji will read poems from book (Granth) so that the bad karma be finishe.
The the hindus named the karma but in reality it was genatic.If you look at the genatic theory and karma theory they are same. But you have to look at it from the nutral point not from a religion.
I need help from some one who is good at math. I like to know how many combination these nubmers will make. permutaions. As in lotry we chose 6 from 49 there are over 14 million combination in that. the numbers are 80,40,20,4. This is very impotent to understand karma






Saint Soldier said:


> Sat shri akal,
> 
> Following is what Guru nanak said about the will of God and the Law of karma-
> 
> ...


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 15, 2008)

seeker3k said:


> Law of karma? As we are told that we are born dew to our karama from the past life.It does not make logic sense, we are told that all the bad and good things happned to us due to our doing in past to other people and how we lived our life in the past. Here is why I say it is not logic. If I steal some thing from your house, that will be sin (pap) so I have to repay u in your and my next life.Why cant it be that in our last life you took stole fro me in our last life and now I am making it even. There is no way one can know/
> Next if we are born due to our karama and we are reaping from our last life's karma. Then there is not going to be next life. Becouse we are not creating new karma, all we are doing is reaping our parst karama. This is hiduism way of explaining and controling people. Now the sikhs, bhai jis doing the same thing. It is all to control people.In hinduism pandat will recite mantra to fininsh bad karma. Now bhaiji will read poems from book (Granth) so that the bad karma be finishe.
> The the hindus named the karma but in reality it was genatic.If you look at the genatic theory and karma theory they are same. But you have to look at it from the nutral point not from a religion.
> I need help from some one who is good at math. I like to know how many combination these nubmers will make. permutaions. As in lotry we chose 6 from 49 there are over 14 million combination in that. the numbers are 80,40,20,4. This is very impotent to understand karma


 


> If I steal some thing from your house, that will be sin (pap) so I have to repay u in your and my next life.Why cant it be that in our last life you took stole fro me in our last life and now I am making it even.


 
Well then stop reacting and start acting. If you want to make the choice to react then go ahead you'll be in your Karma for many lifes to come.



> Next if we are born due to our karama and we are reaping from our last life's karma. Then there is not going to be next life. Becouse we are not creating new karma, all we are doing is reaping our parst karama.


 
Your reaping over the past life is the new Karma and when you get into the next life you can reap some more.



> This is hiduism way of explaining and controling people. Now the sikhs, bhai jis doing the same thing. It is all to control people.In hinduism pandat will recite mantra to fininsh bad karma. Now bhaiji will read poems from book (Granth) so that the bad karma be finishe.


 
Man there's alot of ignorance being passed around on this site lately, is it a new trend. I get it your the one that wants to do what he wants when he wants to satisfy the minds urges. Get in line man there's about 3 billion of these types of people. The fact you called Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji a book tells the reader exactly how much you know about Sikhi. To get you up to speed Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the living Guru and is not a book or a holy scripture. Sikhs read Gurbani to heal the soul and acheive a higher consciousness that leads to the oneness with God. God controls the whole universe, i know he's so good to us when he lets us understand the wonders of the world. Too bad God hides inside of us and tells us to get rid of our ego. Just imagine a world controled by humans, scary isn't it! When a story like a Singh with his head cut off fought his way to Harmandar Sahib, first thing I say is no way-I got proof, science or when a Singh from London gets up in the middle of his funeral and starts walking, I say no way- I got proof, science. Then I shake my head a couple of times and say Waheguru and bow my head in humility; reality is so wonderful.


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Surat, or consciousness is on four levels, sometimes referred to as dimensions. The physical perception of the world about you has two views, pre-programmed to seek or ignore certain apparitions. The conscious is mans innate ability to observe, perceive according to his mental condition. E.g., when we are angry we find all things annoying; the slightest matter rouses us to fury because our consciousness and peace is disturbed. However when we are happy, nothing can erase our joy, no matter what averse occurrences may arise we overcome them sensibly, because our conscious is tuned to the positive dimension.
> 
> The conscience is Gods counsel usually personalised by one’s own life experiences and pastoral tuition. It guides and leads the mind in strong willed thinking people. Some are deaf to their own conscience and rendered mere pawns for any prevailing bad will to govern and coax into wrongdoing. They who are governed by a strong moral conscience have little need of any other modes of counsel and are the truly free.
> 
> ...



Jeetijohal ji

Somehow this thread went strangely off topic. Glad that you have made the effort to get us focused.


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## pk70 (Dec 15, 2008)

Saint Soldier said:


> Sat shri akal,
> Sardar pk70 ji,
> let us suppose that your understanding is right and true about the surat.
> now plz give some care to whatever IL be saying.
> ...


 *Your problem is this that you just do not get it regardless how it is expressed. Remember example of “director” then” chip”*
*Lord, the giver of the Surat and whose are all equal, has his ways of control as put it by Guru Ji. There are people who are blind, cripple and terminally ill from the birth, guys like you think that it is not fair. Or why He has done this to them?  Obviously people who question like this, forget that the body (His creation including brain) with their limits grows in environments(His creation as well). This environment can be womb of the mother too. All factors influence, affect and some time significantly change it; if in that situation blindness, state of being crippled and other disability can occur, how foolish we will be if we question it as His biased decision as you have asked. There are many atheists who go to that strength, in that case, let them remain in that Surat*
*Questioning God’s being fair or unfair is sheer ignorance in spiritual world. I stick to Guru that all is happening as per His will. All are blessed with **Surat**, with disability or without disability. As repeatedly said earlier, to understand it the whole system of His Hukam is to be understood. Taking partially something as example out of His total play is just a game (as you wrote “to give a blow”).  Splitting hair over explained truth by Guru himself is not fair either. Guru Says that intellectual games of reasoning will not be useful in spiritual enlightening. Guru is very much aware of atheistic views. That is why in Mool Mantra, Guru describes the Lord as “SatNaam” means the Lord exists, He is a realty, not an hallucinations etc. *
* I never intended to convince you, impress you or whatever you think because it is not my problem, I am totally convinced by Guru.  I expressed what Guru said in this regard. You want to continue this game, keep it, but this game has lost its luster for me. So good bye “saint Soldier ji”!*


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## Astroboy (Dec 16, 2008)

Surat means awareness :-

ਨਾਪਾਕ  ਪਾਕੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਹਦੂਰਿ  ਹਦੀਸਾ  ਸਾਬਤ  ਸੂਰਤਿ  ਦਸਤਾਰ  ਸਿਰਾ  ॥੧੨॥ 
नापाक पाकु करि हदूरि हदीसा साबत सूरति दसतार सिरा ॥१२॥ 
Nāpāk pāk kar haḏūr haḏīsā sābaṯ sūraṯ ḏasṯār sirā. ||12|| 
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. 
Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 16, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
It is much easy to be critical than to correct.
A learned man should be considered a fool ,if he is governed by greed,pride and craving,
-- Shri Guru Nanak
I thought that someone is a learned man but i discovered what mens can be hidden in their masks of sainthood .thank you pk70 ji for teaching me this lesson.
and if the same person is now angry-
Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else you are the one getting burned.
--Shri Gautam buddh


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## pk70 (Dec 16, 2008)

Saint Soldier said:


> Sat shri akal,
> It is much easy to be critical than to correct.
> A learned man should be considered a fool ,if he is governed by greed,pride and craving,
> -- Shri Guru Nanak
> ...


 *Again thanks for not getting it. We judge others without knowing, we get hurt and learn lesson due to that misunderstanding, because we do not let others to touch the righteous attitude(our own, not necessarily righteous) we develop over years, if some one just wants to stay out of hair splitting, he/she must be judged as per our complexes regardless the accusations person hardly represents. Pk70 is not a Saint and spiritually advanced individual or learned man with any mask. Why do I need it any way? To impress others or to hide from others? I am a person who lived his life like hypocrites as many do, Gurbani changed me and I just want to share it with others, that doesn’t make me a learned person or saint, I am struggling man on Guru path what else can say more. Your Shri  Gautam Budh couldn't impress me, is it his fault? No, what he talks is not as perfect as I feel Gurbani is. When I see same questions coming in different form, I just lose interest, for that, your judgment on me appears to be nothing but lack of understanding. Good bye Saint Soldier Jio ![/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 16, 2008)

The modern world and I suspect for a time is grossly unjust and unfair. Stephen Hawkins, a brilliant mind paralysed, may persons lying in vegetative states, retaining elderly people in nursing homes for the profitability in pharmaceuticals factor long after any quality of life or necessity for the frail person has passed is cruel. It cannot be God’s will, and an incapacitated person has not a voice to lament to God for their state of health. We are ruled by dual powers of good and evil. Why does God allow it, because the majority of men rebel, or unwittingly side with evildoers and paapi persons, for popularity, or profit or because of a herd mentality driving the fearful of aligning with whatever fashion market trends dictate at any given time. Some blame religion, exonerating the wicked thereby. 

The thinking man is required to suppress his humanity to live without emotional trauma in this harsh and cold world. Thus humanity slumbers in eternal sleep whilst mankind is looted of their Swarg by demonic forces. There is a beautiful verse in JapJi Sahib Ramkali Mahal 1 or 5, ‘’the world slumbers in blissful sleep, so let it slumber for the night of darkness is upon us, we will awaken when the sun again arises in our hearts and minds’’ {inspired translation.JJ}

When all the religious houses are in order, they will remerge as unified units towards their One Solar Creator. When the collective will of mankind is again governed by one conscience towards a singular will to peace. The incapacitated are readily healed if the services of such a spiritual healer is sought and by good blessing found. It is the principle of life. There is always happiness, peace, occupation, joy, perfection in the world. It may sometimes appear that it has evaded us or is reserved for others. A matter of the state of one’s mind rather than fact or actuality.


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## Astroboy (Dec 16, 2008)

Sainty Ji,

It would be a good idea to rephrase your prime question which you feel has remained unanswered. This will allow others to participate in providing the answer. If PK70 doesn't want to answer your queries, you should not force him to.


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## pk70 (Dec 16, 2008)

*Namjap ji, thanks for at least understanding; I only recall Guru what he says in such situations, *
* ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਕਹਨੁ ਕਹਾਵਨੁ **॥ **ਤੇਰਾ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਭਾਵਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ [SGGS 51)  *
*Suhelā kahan kahāvan. **Ŧerā bikẖam bẖāvan. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*Easy it is to utter and cause to utter. **But difficult it is to accept Thy Will. Pause. *
*Reasons are obvious *


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## spnadmin (Dec 16, 2008)

Seeker3k

All of your questions in my humble opinion are reasonable questions when the law of karma is wrongly defined as the principle of pay-back for deeds of a previous life. However, the Law of Karma is not the Law of Pay-Back even though it is often interpreted this way. The interpretation is incorrect.

You make 2 excellent points. The first is that the numbers don’t add up if one uses mathematics. And more importantly, souls do not necessarily take a new life immediately after death. The idea that they do makes the entire business of coming and going sound like a traffic management problem in the metropolis of life after death. So you are within your rights to put this question forward as not only baffling, but probably unanswerable. The second good point, in my humble opinion, is this one. We don’t know what happens to our souls—in other words – we don’t know how our karam is assessed and how our reincarnation will turn out because only Akaal can know this. Guru Nanak has told us what to do about it. But no one has come back from the dead to explain the mechanics of this entire matter.

Here is where I would change your questions somewhat. This is not a criticism. Who is the “bhai” you refer to? I am not sure, but I would not say that it is Sikhism that trying to control us. Rather so many people on this earth are prisoners of the thoughts given to them by their culture. An ordinary person, influenced by centuries of Vedantic philosophy about karma and reincarnation, cannot easily escape the influence of history and culture on the question of the Law of Karma, karma, reincarnation, or any other problem related to morality or religious belief. So what we are told is often a a popular theory and a theory that people are used to hearing over and over. They assimilate this theory and repeat it without the tools to understand in a different way.

You said, “Next if we are born due to our karama and we are reaping from our last life's Karma. Then there is not going to be next life. Becouse we are not creating new Karma, all we are doing is reaping our parst karama. This is hiduism way of explaining and controling people.” You are making perfect sense. The idea is not logical and it is actually depressing and morally self-defeating.  There would be no reason to take moral account of our actions if all of our actions were figured out in advance, and if our present life is the pay-back for paap of a previous life. It seems that we would not be responsible for what we do today if today we are paying back our accounts for the sins of yesterday. 

Does anyone think that Guru Arjan Dev died in the horrific manner of his martyrdom because of the sins of his previous life? Does anyone think that Guru Arjan Dev was tricked into the final chapter of his life where he was defamed and slandered – possibly by his own blood – because of sins of his previous life? I do not think this is true. Guru Nanak makes it clear that innocent people often suffer because of the karams of others. This point is made in the hymn of Lahore. Akaal ordains everything in his Hukam. And Akaal gives to all of us, Guru Arjan Dev, to you, to me, to everyone, choices. But as individuals we are the ones who choose. Guru Arjan Dev understood what his choices were. He made a moral choice. Akaal did not make this choice for him. If Akaal had made the choice then Akaal would be the *only* moral agent. Instead Akaal created humans who were able to be moral agents in their own right – we can choose one way or the other.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 17, 2008)

*What does God will*? – Unity, societal cohesiveness, spiritual awareness and liberation, man existing as a solar autonomous force with love of his fellow mankind.

*Law of Karma* – the actions of one’s planting being reaped accordingly. In cases where morally upright persons of respectability and righteousness are cast into a hellish state, the question of karma arises, especially if evildoers are gaining rank by the downfall of respectability and the good. There are many laws applicable to karma. Some ascetics claim inherited bad karma. If our family is notable for its modest living with high standing then the issue of karma screams loudly as a question demanding to be reckoned with. We will invariably find in such circumstances where the good are suffering there are negative forces at play influencing the oppression and downfall of such a person. Natural sequential laws of karma are overridden by the ardent manipulating or suppression and downfall of what is their considered foe. 

*Cause of traversed Karma* - Ordinarily karma is evil intentioned persons making harsh noises, and bad actions incurring the unspoken wrath of the atmospheric and cosmological forces. Man is a spiritual energy force, emitting good or bad energy and attracting in measure the same. Guilty consciences encourage one to subconsciously manipulate life cycle in a certain manner. Good karma gained by the bad affiliates of the good are hereditary and paid for at some later stage in life. All things have a cost and must be paid for, the agenda is not to have taken from life more than you have given, always be in credit.


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## Astroboy (Dec 17, 2008)

Practice of humility and tolerance are important factors to one's spiritual progress.
 As one advances spiritually, the path one treads becomes narrower and narrower 
until it may be called the razor-edged path. The following shabad is self-explanatory on what Gurbani teaches us :-

Page 918, Line 19
*ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਏਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਜਾਣਾ ॥*
खंनिअहु तिखी वालहु निकी एतु मारगि जाणा ॥
Kẖanni▫ahu ṯikẖī vālahu nikī eṯ mārag jāṇā.
*The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair.*
Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 19, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
s. namjap ji,




namjap said:


> Sainty Ji,
> 
> It would be a good idea to rephrase your prime question which you feel has remained unanswered. This will allow others to participate in providing the answer. If PK70 doesn't want to answer your queries, you should not force him to.


 
The main problem is that some mens are not able to understand you or they don't have answers to your questions and they actually show that you are the one who is wrong such mens have false pride somewhere inside. I'm not saying they are fools or manmukhs.some of them agree that they are not intellectuals (i need not point out one) and are wandering on the path of Guru and they behave as muslim imam's the way imam quote Koran the same way they quote  Guru Granth Sahib to prove their points.
and I'm sick of such things people here are ready to debate on sex , marriage , masturbation ,oral sex and not on the basics of Sikhism we have a look different from others on the basis that we believe in the will of God. anyone questioned what is will of God? if i did i never saw a health debate on it on the other hand leg pullings and abusing, taunts and all that. people really don't give a dam to Sikhi:}--}:.

you know namjap ji Passion is a mob of a man ,that commits riot upon his reason.
and the question I'm asking time and again is that was Guru ji passionate about Gods will? why did he never reasoned it in a proper manner?
hope this fool will get his answers.hope is what keeps me going in this thread:shifty:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Astroboy (Dec 19, 2008)

OK Sainty JI,

Lets leave the past in the past and concentrate on the present moment. Let me ask you a question, Sainty Ji.

If God willed the creation of this duality world, then we are faced with cause and effect on the daily basis. 
It is action and reaction in a sense. But if we do not react to what someone else said to us, in the manner
 which that person expected us to react, then the energy "bomerangs back" to the sender because there is no receiver. 

This I believe is part of the Law, the Hukam.


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## pk70 (Dec 19, 2008)

*It starts with ego and continues with it till it gets dirty. Intellectuality brought civility in the society but this ego intoxication many times supersedes every bit of intellectuality and civility as well. Intellectuality inspires to remain civil but ego pushes it to jump into jungle-thinking to blur the luster of intellectuality. Ego forces others to judge others without looking into their own selves about how much capability they have even to understand simple examples. An example of a frog is given by Guru Nanak in Gurbani to express how one doesn’t become aware of the good stuff in the surroundings, in that case ego can question*
*“How a frog can understand music, it is not proven scientifically” That’s not intellectuality but stupidity for not understanding metaphors. Gurbani quoting is to understand what Guru says, if the interpretation is not satisfactory, who feels problem with it, should interpret it better way and let others decide if that new meaning sounds better in stead of blaming or judging others. Comparing Gurbani quoting to Kuran quoting of Mullah is a sheer display of ignorance nourished by that ego that keeps thinking stagnant to own created righteousness. That is another reason, as per History, people who think themselves more intellectual than all others, act stupid too. Almost all established scholars agree about being inable to understand Gurbani to its complete sense on many instances. This site is to discuss many kinds of discussions, sex and other topics are very important for the youth. They ask questions here to get some information. It is not against Sikhi if the Sikhi is not a different than we most of have known about it. Gurbani addresses almost all issues we face every day. I feel, personally, that the ones who have problem with disagreeing and who harbor out of control judgmental behavior should look them selves to mirror before they point fingers at other. Picture will be perfect clear:yes:[/FONT]*


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## lalihayer (Dec 19, 2008)

*was Guruji passionate about Gods will?*

I think, Yes. First bani in Guru Granth Sahib starts with pauris explaining 'Hukam'. It has to be important concept in Sikhism. Why is important to understand 'Hukam'?
Aside from it being 'the truth', another reason is 'ego', 'Ego' is one of most powerful emotion we have to fight in our lives. Accepting 'Hukam' is essential to kill that beast. We must understand whole universe is pre-destined since first incident in universe. Every action cause a reaction and every action is also caused by another previous action. 
I will try to explain a little bit more.
If we think carefully about our life, we will realize that life is nothing but sequnce of events or incidents. Some are small. Some are really big. Most we can't even remember that those occurred. One thing led to another and I end up writing these thoughts on my computer. One thing led to another and you end up reading my thoughts on paper or computer screen.


Is there any chance this present would have been different than it is now? 


I watched a movie 'Butterfly Effect' sometime few months back. The name of the movie refers to the idea that a butterfly's wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that may ultimately alter the path of a tornado or delay, accelerate or even prevent the occurrence of a tornado in a certain location. In little more simpler words, a small action done now may cause a very big reaction sometime in future. Another example is a ball rolled from top of hill may go on rolling across many valleys before stopping depending upon conditions and slope of hill.

If we analyze this Butterfly Effect, another question comes along.


If flapping of butterfly's wings can cause big tornado in future, how can a butterfly flap a wing without anything causing it ? Something must have caused it to flap in first place.

This universe came into existence  unknown time ago (Big Bang or any other expalainations) and after first incident in this universe, sequence of events started to happen as per the Laws Of Nature. One sequence of events led to another and another led to many other. Every event happened  as a result of some number of events and resulting event happened after taking account Laws Of Nature. 

These sequences are running in whole universe from minute level to grandest levels as per Laws Of Nature and will reach a position of final fate for universe sometime in future.

To explain further, I will take two successive moments in timeline of universe. 

First moment is there. Every part of universe (smallest to grandest) is at a certain place. Just think about that moment with whole universe standing still. We agree that nothing can be changed in this moment. To change anything in this moment, we have to go back in past and that is impossible. 
Laws of Nature are absolute. We can't change it. 

Let us move to next moment. This next moment is result of every part of universe (smallest to grandest) in previous moment and Laws of nature controlling the outcome to this next moment. 
We understand first discussed moment was unchangeable and Laws of Nature are absolute. How can we say this second moment could have possiblities of more than one?


I understand it is very hard to accept we don't have any choice. Some usual objections we would have in mind will be like--
"I am master of my will. How can anybody control it?"
or 
"If nothing is in our control, how can we responsible for our actions?"
or
"Why one has to face hardship or painful experience, if one was not even responsible for it in first place?"
or 
"If everything is pre-destined, should we stop doing any effort"
All the answers are in first part i.e. accepting His Hukam. But we will discuss more in detail.


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## lalihayer (Dec 19, 2008)

*Is there anything like Free will?
*​ 
  We will start again by looking at some hypothetical situations to better explain my point.


> An individual is born and bred in Nazi Germany during rise of Hitler. Like most of Germans he was born with superiority complex. Second factor added was atmosphere in Germany at that time. People were mesmerized with writings and lectures of Hitler. It made him even more convinced of his superior race. Then during first years of World War II, Germany came across quick victories. It made him more sure of his master race. So at any given time how can he exercises free will? Every thought of him was influenced by number of factors. Current atmosphere being the most dominating. He was believing every word Hitler said and was even ready to lay down his life for these principles. If free thought does exist, people in Nazi Germany and people in present Germany would have same thoughts. But there is a big difference in opinions between 1940's German and 2005's German.





> A recent skilled immigrant from Cuba in Canada got a well paid job in Montreal. He is very atheist by nature. Every morning he leave for job and see a big church on his way. Daily he reads messages like 'Come To Jesus' on the billboard outside church. He just laughs it out. As he is making good money, soon he buys a big house and moves in it along with his family. Things are very rosy and then at once he gets notice from his job that employers are laying off whole shift due to shortage of new orders. His beautiful world starts to collapse. He starts sending his resumes everywhere in panic. His monthly expenses are so big he can't simply even afford a day off from work. Tensions starts to going up. Another thing happen is his loving son fell sick with high fever and he has to take him hospital for immediate testings. His heart is pumping. He is losing almost everything at once. He has no force on the things happening around him.
> 
> Next day in stress, he is again driving to work and see a new message 'Jesus Is Solution To All Your Problems'. He stops his car and goes in. He prays in front of idol of Jesus for saving him from mounting problems. When he reaches his management informs him that they got a new order from Europe and he will get a promotion. Immediately he receives a phone call from his doctor that his son in well now and he had a minor infection only. This Cuban immigrant is a devout christian for life now. Do you think he has independent decision converting to Christianity? Did his problems disappear because he prayed? His son has a minor infection even before he prayed in church. Orders from Europe were well on way even before he went to pray. But prevailing conditions turns him into a christian. Free thinking does not make him a christian but his inability to stand pressure sure does.





> A girl is born to a white farmer in Texas. She finished her school in small Texas town. In her school, she had some Mexican friends. Her parents did not really like it but never said a word to her. After finishing she got admission in a university in New York. In New York, she met a black gentleman and she fell in love with him immediately. They went out for few months and then they got married in local Registrar office. She informed her parents about the marriage. Parents were never comfortable their daughter marrying a black guy, but they can't stop it from happening. Do we think it could have happened 100 years back in Texas? Crowd would have lynched black guy over even looking at white girl. They got the same genetics as 100 years back. So why different decision is OK now? Reason is simple. No decision is independent. It is decided by factors surrounding it. A white guy will be thinking twice before voting for black president in 2008. Maybe in next 50 years, he won't even notice it. Or opposite could happen. We simply don't know. What I am trying to say here is that individual view will be decided by factors surrounding situation at that time. Again no free thought.





> A boy is born to parents of Pakistani origin in UK. Even though parents are not very religious, they kept on taking boy to local mosque every evening without missing even once in boy's whole childhood and teenage years. With Indian genetics, prevailing racism in UK and continuous Koranic teachings by ultra Conservative imams turned this innocent little boy to a British born fanatic Muslim who hates every non-Muslim and believe every word his religious book says. If same boy was born in Pakistan, even with same amount feeding of Koranic lessons, he would never become as fanatic as he had become in UK. Missing factors would be racism, identity crisis and maybe some other mild ones. How can he exercise free will here? He looks at every situation through eyes of Koran. Then he tries to remember what his prophet would have done in this situation. He interpret multi meaning Arabic words from Koran to convince his mind that Koran is best science book in world and has every modern invention mentioned in it. His mind never let him think that why new inventions are not coming out of it and he is able to interpret old discoveries only? He uses all his brain power to prove his book right, he can never use his brain to decide what is right. He can never think outside his views. And you know, in reality nobody can.
> Every decision he takes is influenced by current situation, his ultra-conservative upbringing, his Indo-Arab bloodline and many other unknown factors. He could never take a independent decision.


If we humans have choice of free will, why over 95% of people stay in same religion they are born in? Reason, they get influenced by environment they live in and take decisions accordingly. No individual is able to change future with decision made by itself. Shakespeare said it well in As You Like It, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players." We play our parts without choice and perish. 

 No thought in world is random or independent in nature. There is multitude of known or unknown factors affecting individual mind like genetics, upbringing environment and number of series of events going in his brain like chemical reactions, brain structure changes, eating and drinking habits etc. If we are able to take into account all the events, then there is only one decision possible to be made by brain of any individual with no alternative ever.


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## pk70 (Dec 19, 2008)

No thought in world is random or independent in nature. There is multitude of known or unknown factors affecting individual mind like genetics, upbringing environment and number of series of events going in his brain like chemical reactions, brain structure changes, eating and drinking habits etc. If we are able to take into account all the events, then there is only one decision possible to be made by brain of any individual with no alternative ever.(quote lalihayer Ji)
*That alone is enough to understand the ultimate Hukam prevailing not only on us but through the universes." HUKAM n kiha jaaee" hint is enough for a follower of Guru Nanak as inter -relation between all work directly or indirectly and are effective to and from all sides.*:yes:


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## lalihayer (Dec 19, 2008)

We do have illusion of free will. On our level we think, we are free to do whatever we want. There is another theory given by a proponent of free will, 

_"Suppose two men before a chessboard,--the one a novice, the other an expert player of the game. The expert intends to beat. But he cannot foresee exactly what any one actual move of his adversary may be. He knows, however, all the possible moves of the latter; and he knows in advance how to meet each of them by a move of his own which leads in the direction of victory. And the victory infallibly arrives, after no matter how devious a course, in the one predestined form of check-mate to the novice's king. 

Let now the novice stand for us finite free agents, and the expert for the infinite mind in which the universe lies. Suppose the latter to be thinking out his universe before he actually creates it. Suppose him to say, I will lead things to a certain end, but I will not now decide on all the steps thereto. At various points, ambiguous possibilities shall be left open, either of which, at a given instant, may become actual. But whichever branch of these bifurcations becomes real, I know what I shall do at the next bifurcation to keep things from drifting away from the final result I intend." 

The creator's plan of the universe would thus be left blank as to many of its actual details, but all possibilities would be marked down. The realization of some of these would be left absolutely to chance; that is, would only be determined when the moments of realization came. Other possibilities would be contingently determined; that is, their decision would have to wait till it was seen how the matters of absolute chance fell out. But the rest of the plan, including its final upshot, would be rigorously determined once for all. So the creator himself would not need to know all the details of actuality until they came; and at any time his own view of the world would be a view partly of facts and partly of possibilities, exactly as ours is now. Of one thing, however, he might be certain; and that is that his world was safe, and that no matter how much of it might zigzag he could surely bring it home at last." 
_


I don't have to give that long clarification for this argument. We are talking about Creator Lord here. He caused first action. He created laws of nature. He must realize from first event to last event, what will happen? A car engineer knows everything about car, how it will behave, how it will run, what are the specifications. A machine designer prepares proofs for his machine and knows all the details of his machine parts, metals used, behaviour of metal parts under different temperatures, pressures and almost most of the conditions. 
We are talking about Creator here. He is not bound in laws of nature as we are. He created everything including matter, time, space, laws of nature and all we see or unable to see. How can we think of him as a master chess player who plays good chess but does not know all the details going in his opponent's mind? If William James compares Lord to a master chess player, then for sure he must be talking about some lesser God. Creator God must be above both these players and had it planned how both of these players, master and novice, will behave in each and every condition and fate planned by Him must be fix and absolute with no other alternative.


Let us take a look at making of any decision by human mind. There are three factors to decide the outcome. Biology, genetics and socialization. First factor load the gun, second aim it and third factor shoots it. Biology is beyond our control. Genetics are determined by biology of our body. So genetics too are out of our reach. Third factors is socialization, which is result of sequence of events set in motion much before our birth. How can we even think to change it? With all three factors absolute and out of our control, how can our decision be independent or free? It can't be.
Khalsa ji, let us do veechar. Understanding 'Hukam' is very important. If we 'understand' it, only then we can accept it. I would appreciate your comments.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 20, 2008)

lalihayer said:


> *Is there anything like Free will?*​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 25, 2008)

The butterfly effect, the actions of one butterfly initiates a cyclical reaction, a pattern of behaviour, how bizarre does this sound. The catalyst was the oracle of reason and wisdom, how did it arise that the unconscious reaction of a butterfly can cause earth moving reverberations. What is a catalyst, what are the forces and factors creating a cataclysmic effect on the environment and atmosphere. All influential individuals with a degree of attention are able to motivate, inspire, generate a surge of emotion and change the course of history. Many impediments are implemented to allay any such one force having such a causal effect.

It is said and true God look upon the world at any time when thus inclined and reacts according to what he observes. Imagine he in passing observes a foul natured atheists lambasting against the existence of such a supernal father. The great power of God would react in kind and much hate be manifest upon innocents for the actions of one. Imagine one terrorist committing an assault against a nation he feels invades, besieges, and seeks to undermine his motherland. He takes action, many bombs are places and many lives taken. Thereafter all his brothers and race are known by his action and judgment. Life is such. All are ambassadors of their nation, religion and creed.

Indeed environmental factors and peer pressure colour a man’s thinking and judgment. The purpose of bani or scriptures is to retain truth and reason over mind, matter and social trends. Man is as immaculate as is creator. To consider oneself less than ideal and place oneself in the gathering of the good is a contradiction of terms, a misplaced humility and course of action. Humility teaches man that until he knows himself he knows nothing. To know oneself is to be free. It is therefore mortals enchained and enslaved that voice loudly what others intuit subconsciously. 

Sainty Ji, you are a respected and much loved contributor here. Intellectual purity and spiritual peace will gain you the greatness inherent in your words and actions. Silence is preferable to speaking biased and angry words in reaction to perceived misjudgements. Here is wishing the Jesus Christ a happy birthday. A fellow brother of Nanak Ji amongst the sons of the Almighty Creator.


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## spnadmin (Dec 25, 2008)

Guess I have to move things now. I really dislike this part of being a leader. Truly I do. We try to put a cap on things so they do not get out of control. We do not like to meddle with the expression of opinion by members of SPN. 

But in the end we have to be judge, jury and executioner. Geez!


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## lalihayer (Dec 25, 2008)

jeetijohal ji wrote,


> Man is as immaculate as is creator.


Yes, he indeed is, but one has to realize it.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 26, 2008)

My response was to your signature, Lalihayer Ji. One who is immaculate sees his Lord reflected from the skies, about and within. He senses his Creators vulnerability, responsibility, and his adversity. Our Lord is as patriarch as immaculate and perfect, as Omnipotent and Powerful as his creation allow. The creation must have faith in his word and doctrine prior to the gaining of understanding and realisation of man as particle or fraglet, being the entire sum contained in a mortal portal of humanity. When others question with misinformed apparatus of thinking, Gods power and House is diminished in stature, tainted will all adversarial sin and wrongdoing, and desecrated by heathens and atheists about us. Why does God allow mans suffering is probably the same reasoning as to why Man allows his faith and God to be blasphemed against and destructed by tyrannical regimes and corrupt governments protecting their own indefensible actions and interests whilst setting the mob upon an exposed and unprotected Creator and his institution of religious wisdom. Both mans and Gods reluctance to action is probably based upon the same line of logic and thinking, for man is but an extension and part of the pervading spirit, be it in its purest and perfect form, or corrupted and made bestial beyond recognition of any semblance of humanity and decency.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 26, 2008)

If one feels unclean and defiled one sets upon a path of self cleansing, the mind of anger and the negative thinking it creates, the body by cleansing internally and without with peace and love, itself generating a healing and detox of the entire bio system. This cleansed soul cannot think with harshness, or speak foul words and we are thereby cleansed. How can man be filthy, and if he were he would not deign to utter the sacred word of the Father upon his lips until he was cleansed. As one would not visit his house without bathing and donning ones best apparel. 

There is no reason for man to be vile if he becomes aware and conscious of any inherent vileness within him. Consciousness is a greater part of the cure. They are vile who mule like refuse to admit wrongdoing or fear the harsh consequence of their erroneous ways. How can one who has love of the Lord and the company of his fellowship be vile. To infer so is to encourage other virulent antagonistic forces to his threshold in the hope of God accepting the filth ridden or impure of heart. There is no reason to be so when cleansing is exacted within hours with enlightenment, faith and love. 

You will concur or maybe you will disagree. It is a matter of state of mind, emotional wellbeing, and a strong firm faith in one’s ability to overcome such pitfalls.

This good gentleman beating his head against the cold stone of Gods heart. All is required if for one of stronger faith to hold him tight until his demons leave and he finds a shoulder upon which to lean. Who would be that good soul ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYlk...e.com/watch?v=CvYlk9EPVd0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FON

A father would rather see his blood perish and die than be dishonoured or defiled. The caste and race of the invasive enemy may change, but the circumstance remains. 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4GJF9moVm0


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## spnadmin (Dec 26, 2008)

If one feels unclean and defiled one sets upon a path of self cleansing, the mind of anger and the negative thinking it creates, the body by cleansing internally and without with peace and love, itself generating a healing and detox of the entire bio system. This cleansed soul cannot think with harshness, or speak foul words and we are thereby cleansed. How can man be filthy, and if he were he would not deign to utter the sacred word of the Father upon his lips until he was cleansed. As one would not visit his house without bathing and donning ones best apparel. 

There is no reason for man to be vile if he becomes aware and conscious of any inherent vileness within him. Consciousness is a greater part of the cure. They are vile who mule like refuse to admit wrongdoing or fear the harsh consequence of their erroneous ways. How can one who has love of the Lord and the company of his fellowship be vile. To infer so is to encourage other virulent antagonistic forces to his threshold in the hope of God accepting the filth ridden or impure of heart. There is no reason to be so when cleansing is exacted within hours with enlightenment, faith and lov

I think this is great! Something to ponder more than one or two times. :yes:


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## Astroboy (Dec 26, 2008)

Page 624, Line 11
ਭਾਂਭੀਰੀ ਕੇ ਪਾਤ ਪਰਦੋ ਬਿਨੁ ਪੇਖੇ ਦੂਰਾਇਓ ॥੩॥
भांभीरी के पात परदो बिनु पेखे दूराइओ ॥३॥
Bẖāŉbẖīrī ke pāṯ parḏo bin pekẖe ḏūrā▫i▫o. ||3||
There is a veil between us, *like the wings of a butterfly;* without being able to see Him, He seems so far away. ||3||
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 26, 2008)

Studies of sets of twins separated at birth and studied upon maturity show a set of distinct patterns that give validity to a predestined fate or karma to an individual’s life. This fate whether good or bad is not entirely infallible as some sorcerers can cure ill fatedness, yet is contradicts many presumed tenets of nature and nurture and their effect on producing a thinking, coordinated and cohesive society. 

YouTube - Steven Pinker: Chalking it up to the blank slate

Although I firmly hold the belief the mind is not at birth a blank slate but a created mass amalgam of the genetic predisposition of the parentage programmed into the new born child. Nature and nurture by the biological parents further augment such inherited traits. If the parents witness their certain undesirable characteristics evident in their growing child the battle against a self will ensues. A parent prone to picking its nose will balk at the subconsciously adopted bad habit taken upon the child. The child’s sense of assimilation with parent is broken when the parent objects to the fine tuned reflective behavioural patterns in the child. Recognition of this fact corrects the problem at source.


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 26, 2009)

Sat Shri Akal, 

I always had thought that life is a note book i would decorate it with different colours i would do what i like i would make my own destiny i would be my luck maker but i was wrong and everyone is right until he is proved wrong life is not a note book it is a book already written we simply read it out and so we are a reader of some one else wish may you call him a writer or God.Let me show you how can we simplify our lives.......

The life is like a book some times it seems to be all about comedy sometimes tragedy and at other times a drama .we can simplify each single minute of our life by being a very good and sensible audience.Take things lightly .Try not to commit mistakes because most of the mistakes which we commit can never be corrected.Don't think much about things that make you sad.Always try to be cheerful.Learn from yesterday to work today for a bright tomorrow.Life is after all a book strive hard to keep it clean and present it to next generation as a guide.Life is a book...........
---sainty/20.11.2008/college

~~sainty~~
~wald Guru Nanak~~


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 27, 2009)

WE MAKE THE MISTAKE OF THINKING WE GET HUMAN BIRTH...WHEN WE ARE BORN. HENCE THE MISTAKEN BELIEF AND UNDUE STRESS ON KARMA..PAST LIVES..REINCARNATION ETC.....

ALL THESE ARE UTTER RUBBISH.

A "HUMAN" IS REALLY " BORN" NOT WHEN HE CAME OUT OF HIS MOTHER'S WOMB....BUT WHEN HE REALISES !!!the direction he is heading for...

GURU AMARDASS JI REALISED HE HAD WASTED HIS LIFE...AT AGE 62. ACCORDING TO GURBANI..THAT WAS THE AGE AT WHICH BHAI AMARDASS JI WAS "REALLY BORN"...BECAUSE HE REALISED...THE DIRECTION HIS HUMAN LIFE WAS TAKING....
that was the day he was born as human....

Most humans in human bodies..refuse to change their inhuman actions..and actions...that why its said..human-animal...human but acting like a monkey..a human barking like a dog....a human charging like a bull...a human acting like a *****..a prostitute..all these are OUR LIVES>>>INCARNATIONS...Karams..actions...and most importantly all of them are IN THIS ONE HUMAN LIFETIME !!!

The moment a "monkey in human body" realises his actions will NOT lead him towards GOD....thats when he is REBORN..REINCARNATED.....from "monkey" into "Human". Its a fact as long as a human continues to behave like a Dog in the Manger..he cannot acquire Godlike qualities....he will have to RELINQUISH the dog like behaviour and be REBORN as HUMAN to go on the path towards God....

ALL shabads about reincarnations and past lives and karmas etc mustbe read in TOTO..and then we will find thats why Gurbani declares that HUMAN BIRTH IS ONLY ONCE in  lifetime chance to meet HIM....we are NOT BORN again and again..NO JI NEVER.

The "animal instincts" MUST be driven OUT of this "human body" to make way for GODLIKE qualities....BOTH cannot fit in..like they say two swords in a single scabbard ??

that is also what is meant by rebirth at khandeh batte dee pahul.... we are supposed to CUT OFF our HEAD....leave behind the OLD HEAD..and recieve  a NEW HEAD...leave MANMATT of the Old days.....and adopt GURMATT of the coming new days. Here no body actually physically cuts his head off...no surgeon sews a new head back on to our neck....its all "SPIRITUAL CLEANSING"... FROM that DAY on we are to spiritually beleive in parents GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..birthplace KESHGARH sahib....no need to go changing ones BIRTH Certificate/passport etc to reflect the "Change" !!!! IF that were the case Guru gobind Sngh Ji would be listed as Father on 25 million passports and birthplace as keshgarh on millions of certs and documents...BUT many still go on emphasising "Physical..changes..births..reincarnations..rebirths..etc etc when there is absolutley NO PROOF of any such as no one has come back to say he is now a cow...or snake...et c etc
GURBANI emphaisies JEEWAN MUKTEE..we get our REWARDS HERE AND NOW...no greenfileds of heaven..no flowing rivers of honey and milk..no heavens and no hells...whatever we are we are NOW....our KARMAS are NOW....


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 27, 2009)

*ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਤੇ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ*​ * ਪ੍ਰੋ: ਗੁਰਬਚਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਥਾਈਲੈਂਡ ਵਾਲੇ​ * ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜੜ੍ਹ ਤੇ ਚੇਤਨ ਰੂਪਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡੀ ਪੱਧਰ ਤੇ  ਪਸਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਦਿਸਦੀ ਹੈ। ਭਾਵੇਂ ਇਹ ਰਚਨਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਰਹਿਤ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਇਹ ਜੀਵਨ ਭਰਪੂਰ  ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੈ। ਮੁੱਢਲੇ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ਸੱਤਿਆ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਦੀ ਹੀ ਹੈ। ਕਾਦਰ ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਖੋ  ਵੱਖੇ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਾਹਰਲਾ ਰੂਪ ਵੱਖਰਾ ਹੋਣ ਦੇ ਬਾਵਜੂਦ ਵੀ ਮੂਲ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤ  ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਹਰ ਅੰਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਨ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੱਸਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਾਰੀ  ਕੁਦਰਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕੁੱਝ ਵੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ। “ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ  ਗੋਬੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ” –ਆਖ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦੇ ਜ਼ਰੇ ਜ਼ਰੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤ ਰਮੀ  ਹੋਈ ਦੇਖੀ ਹੈ। ਸਾਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਓਸੇ ਦੀ ਹੋਂਦ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਬਣ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਹੁਕਮ  ਦੁਆਰਾ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਉਂਦਾ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਅੰਦਰ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਨੂੰ  ਸਮਝਦਿਆਂ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤਰੱਕੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਲੀਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦਾ ਵਿਕਾਸ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦਾ  ਵੀ ਵਿਕਾਸ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਪਾਣੀ ਤੇ ਹਵਾ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਸ ਦਾ ਮੁੱਢ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਜੀਵ  ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ, ਹੌਲ਼ੀ ਹੌਲ਼ੀ ਵਿਕਾਸ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਗਿਆ ਤੇ ਜੀਵ ਜੰਤੂ ਬਣਦੇ ਗਏ। ਮਨੁੱਖ ਕਾਦਰ  ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦਾ ਖੂਬਸੂਰਤ ਨਮੂਨਾ ਹੈ। ਰਾਗ ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਅੰਦਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਲੈ  ਕੇ ‘ਜਨਮੁ ਪਰਾਪਤ’ ਜਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਤੇ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਚਰਚਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾਏਗੀ।
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਭਏ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਾ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਜ ਮੀਨ ਕੁਰੰਗਾ॥
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਪੰਖੀ ਸਰਪ ਹੋਇਓ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਹੈਵਰ ਬਿਰਖ ਜੋਇਓ॥ ੧॥
 ਮਿਲੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ॥ ਚਿੰਰਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥ ੧॥
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸੈਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕਰਿਆ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਰਭ ਹਿਰਿ ਖਰਿਆ॥
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸਾਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ॥ ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਇਆ॥ ੨॥
 ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗ ਭਇਓ ਜਨਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ॥ ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ॥
 ਤਿਆਗਿ ਮਾਨੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ॥ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ॥ ੩॥
 ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੋਆ ਸੁ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਹੋਗੁ॥ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ॥
 ਤਾ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਲੈਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ॥ ੪॥
 ਪੰਨਾ ੧੭੬
 ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੀ ਤੁਕ ਅੰਦਰ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਲਈ  ਨਿਰਧਾਰਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਕਿਸੇ ਬੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਬੀਜ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾਏ, ਉਹ ਫ਼ਲ਼ੀ ਭੂਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।  ਫਿਰ ਫ਼ਲ਼ ਪੱਕ ਕੇ ਤਿਆਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪੱਕੇ ਹੋਏ ਫ਼ਲ਼ ਨੂੰ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਖਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਬੀਜ ਦਾ ਬੀਜਣਾ,  ਉਸ ਦਾ ਪੱਕ ਜਾਣਾ ਤੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਤੀਕ ਪਾਹੁੰਚ ਜਾਣਾ, ਉਸ ਦੀ ਮੰਜ਼ਿਲ ਸਫਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ  ਆਪਣੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਅੰਦਰ ਚੰਗਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਹੁੰਚਣਾ ਹੈ। ਵਿਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ  ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜੀਵਨ ਬਾਕੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਬਆਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ। ਸਾਇੰਸ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਕਰਮ ਵਿਕਾਸ  ਆਖਦੀ ਹੈ। ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਹੋਂਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ। ਆਦਮੀ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿੱਚ  ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੁਭਾਅ ਤੇ ਕਰਮ ਬਦਲਣ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਸੁਣਨ ਨੂੰ  ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ --- ਹੈ ਤੇ ਬੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਕੰਮ ਬਾਂਦਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਨੁੱਖ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਵੀ ਪਸ਼ੂ  ਬਿਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ। ਜਿੰਨਾ ਚਿਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਬਾਰੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਅਸੀਂ ਉਸ ਵਸਤੂ ਦਾ  ਪੂਰਾ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਠਾ ਸਕਦੇ। ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਤਾਂ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਪੂਰਾ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਠਾ ਰਹੇ। ਰਹਾਉ ਦੀਆਂ  ਤੁਕਾਂ ਹਨ:---
 ਮਿਲੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ॥ ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ॥
 ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਦੀ ਵਾਰੀ ਹੈ। ਚਿਰਾਂ ਉਪਰੰਤ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੈ।  “ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ” ---- ਸਰੀਰ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੈ; “ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ” ਚਿਰਾਂ ਉਪਰੰਤ; ਜਨਮ ਲਿਆ, ਜਵਾਨੀ ਆਈ,  ਬੁਡੇਪੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਰ ਪਾ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ। ਨਾ ਸਮਝੀ ਕਰਕੇ ਵਿਆਰਥ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੀਵਨ ਗਵਾ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ। “ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ” –  ਕਾਫੀ ਸਮਾਂ ਉਮਰ ਦਾ ਢਲ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਸਰੀਰ ਮਿਲਿਆ; ਹੁਣ ਸਮਝ ਆਈ ਹੈ। ਬਹੁਤ ਸਮੇਂ ਉਪਰੰਤ ਸਮਝ ਆਈ  ਹੈ। ਜਨਮ ਤਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਘਰ ਲਿਆ ਸੀ, ਪਰ ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਸੁਭਾਅ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੋਰ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਵਿਰਤੀਆਂ ਕੰਮ ਕਰ  ਰਹੀਆਂ ਸਨ। ਅਸਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਓਦੋਂ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਦੋਂ ਸਮਝ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ  ਨੇ ੬੨ ਸਾਲ ਦੀ ਉਮਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਅਜਾਈਂ ਗੁਆਚ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਰਬਾਰ  ਦੇ ਮਹੱਤਵ ਦਾ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ ਹੋਇਆ, ਅਸਲ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਉਹ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ ਬਚਪਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਵੀ ਆ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ  ਤੇ ਕਈ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਬੁਢੇਪਾ ਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਫਿਰ ਵੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਮਹੱਤਵ ਦਾ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ ਨਹੀਂ  ਹੁੰਦਾ ਕਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਵੀ ਕੋਈ ਜ਼ਿੰਮੇਵਾਰੀ ਸੀ। ਅਸਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਜਦੋਂ ਸ਼ੁਭ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਉਣਾ  ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ, ਉਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਅਸੀਂ ਜ਼ਿਉਂਦੇ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਤਲ਼ ਤੇ ਹਾਂ;  ਪਰ ਸੁਭਾਅ ਦੀ ਬਿਰਤੀ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਤਲ਼ ਤੇ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਪੁਸ਼ੂ ਬਿਰਤੀ ਅੰਦਰ ਜ਼ਿਉਂਦਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜੂਨ ਭੋਗ  ਰਿਹਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਬਾਕੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ  ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਖਿਆਲ ਹੈ, ਪੱਥਰ ਅਬੋਧ ਹੈ, ਬਨਸਪਤੀ ਤਿੰਨ ਹਿੱਸੇ ਸੁੱਤੀ  ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇੱਕ ਹਿੱਸਾ ਜਾਗਦੀ ਹੈ। ਪਸ਼ੁ --- ਪੰਛੀ ਦੋ ਹਿੱਸੇ ਜਾਗਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਦੋ ਹਿੱਸੇ ਸੁੱਤੇ  ਹੋਏ ਹਨ। ਮਨੁੱਖ ਤਿੰਨ ਹਿੱਸੇ ਜਾਗਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਇਹ ਇੱਕ ਹਿੱਸਾ ਜਗਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ  ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾਂ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਹਿੱਸਾ ਹੋਰ ਸੌਂ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਬਿਰਤੀ ਤੇ  ਉੱਤਰ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਮਾਜ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਲਾਤਕਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਘਟਨਾਵਾਂ, ਲੁੱਟਾਂ ਖੋਹਾਂ, ਸੀਨਾ ਜ਼ੋਰੀ ਕਰਨਾ ਤੇ  ਹੇਰਾ ਫੇਰੀ ਇੱਕ ਕਲੰਕ ਹੈ। ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਹੀ ਪਿਆਰ ਨਾਲ ਸਮਝਾਉਂਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਫਰਮਾਉਂਦੇ  ਹਨ ਕਿ ਦੇਖ, ਕੀੜੇ ਪਤੰਗੇ ਹੈਣ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਉੱਪਜ, ਪਰ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਕੋਈ ਬਹੁਤ ਵਧੀਆ  ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਕੀੜਿਆਂ ਪਤੰਗਿਆਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਿੰਨੀਆਂ ਕਿਸਮਾਂ ਹਨ। ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਹਾਥੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਹਿਰਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ  ਕਿੰਨੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਹਨ। ਪੰਛੀਆਂ; ਸੱਪਾਂ, ਘੋੜੇ ਤੇ ਬਲਦਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਿੰਨੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਹਨ।  “ਬਿਨੁ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਜੋ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਬਲਨਾ ਸਰਪ  ਜੈਸੇ ਅਰਜਾਰੀ” ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਕਰ  ਅਜੇ ਵੀ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਵੱਖ ਵੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹ  ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਸੱਪ ਦੀ ਜੂਨ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਕ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਸੱਪ ਦੇ  ਤਲ ਤੇ ਜ਼ਿਉਂਦੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਰੱਖੀ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਘੜੀ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ ਕਿ  ਮੈਂ ਗਲਤ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਤੇ ਤੁਰਿਆ ਹਾਂ; ਅਸਲ ਉਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਰੀਰ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ  ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਰੱਬੀ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ ਨਾ ਹੋਣ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੀ ਵੱਖ –  ਵੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਤੁਰਿਆ ਫਿਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ।
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਭਏ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਾ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਜ ਮੀਨ ਕੁਰੰਗਾ॥
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਪੰਖੀ ਸਰਪ ਹੋਇਓ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਹੈਵਰ ਬ੍ਰਿਖ ਜੋਇਓ॥
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਪਤੰਗਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਨ। ਹਾਥੀ, ਘੋੜਿਆਂ, ਬਲਦਾਂ ਤੇ ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਈ –  ਕਈ ਕਿਸਮਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਹੈ। ਇੱਕ ਤਲ ਤੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ  ਨੂੰ ਮਾੜਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਹਿ ਸਕਦੇ। ਸਿਖਾਏ ਹੋਏ ਕੁੱਤੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀਆਂ ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਹਰਕਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਲੱਭ ਲੈਂਦੇ  ਹਨ। ਵਿਕਸਤ ਦੇਸ਼ਾਂ ਦੇ ਏਅਰ ਪੋਰਟ ਤੇ ਕੁੱਤੇ ਸੁੰਘ ਕੇ ਦੱਸ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਬੈਗ  ਅੰਦਰ, ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਸਤੂ ਹੈ। ਮੈਂ ਨਿਊਜ਼ੀਲੈਂਡ ਦੇ ਏਅਰ ਪੋਰਟ ਤੇ ਉੱਤਰਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਕੁੱਤੇ  ਦੇ ਸੁੰਘਣ ਤੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਬੈਗ ਨੂੰ ਫੋਲਿਆ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਗਿਆ। ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਸਹਿਣ ਦੀ ਸੁਵਿਧਾ ਪੁਲ਼ਾਂ  ਥੱਲੇ ਰਹਿ ਰਹੇ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਕਿਤੇ ਬੇਹਤਰ ਹੈ। ਤਸਵੀਰ ਦੇ ਦੂਸਰੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਭਾਰਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਸੜਕਾਂ ਦੇ  ਕਿਨਾਰਿਆਂ, ਪੁੱਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੇਠ, ਖੁਲ੍ਹੇ ਮੈਦਾਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਖੁਲ੍ਹੇ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਦੀ ਛੱਤ ਥੱਲੇ ਤੱਪੜਾਂ ਤੇ  ਸੁੱਤੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਮ ਦੇਖੇ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ। ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਮੁੱਢਲ਼ੀਆਂ ਸਹੂਲਤਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕੀ ਕਰਨੀਆਂ  ਹਨ, ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਤਾਂ ਦੇਖੀਆਂ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਣੀਆਂ। ਰੱਬੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਨੂੰ ਅਸੀਂ ਮਾੜਾ ਨਹੀਂ  ਕਹਿ ਸਕਦੇ। ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਨਿਯਮ ਦੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਤੇ ਸਾਕਾਰ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ। ਸ਼ਹਿਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਲੇ  ਦੁਆਲੇ ਝੌਪੜੀਆਂ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਰਹਿ ਰਹੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਕੀੜਿਆਂ ਮਕੌੜਿਆਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਵੀ ਬਦਤਰ ਜੀਵਨ ਬਿਤਾ ਰਹੇ  ਹਨ। ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਕਈ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਚੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। ਇਹ  ਜੂਨਾਂ ਅੱਧੀਆਂ ਜਾਗਦੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਅੱਧੀਆਂ ਸੁੱਤੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਸਰੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਕ  ਵਿਕਸਤ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਰਦਾਰ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਸਮਝਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਸ਼ੈਲੀ ਵਰਤੀ  ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਦੇਖ, ਤੈਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਘਰ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਕੀੜੇ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਗੰਦੀਆਂ ਥਾਂਵਾਂ  ਤੇ ਰਹਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਤੈਨੂੰ ਨੇਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਕੇ, ਨੇਕ ਸੁਭਾਅ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਆਲ੍ਹਾ ਦਰਜੇ ਦਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਬਣਨਾ  ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ।
 “ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ”, “ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ”, “ਦੇਹ ਸਜੰਰੀਆ” ਦੇ ਗਹਿਰੇ ਭਾਵ ਨੂੰ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਦੂਸਰੇ ਬੰਦ ਅੰਦਰ ਪੱਥਰ, ਪਹਾੜ, ਦਰੱਖਤ ਤੇ ਜਨਮ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੀ ਖੁਰ ਜਾਣ  ਦੀ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਨੂੰ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਆਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰੜੋਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ  ਕਰਦੀ। ਇਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਹਨ। ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮਤ ਪੱਕਿਆਂ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਦੀ ਗਣਤੀ ਮੰਨਦਾ  ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਮੁਹਾਵਰੇ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ। ਦੂਸਰੇ ਬੰਦ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ  ਪਾਠ ਇੰਜ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ।
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸੈਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕਰਿਆ॥ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਰਭ ਹਿਰਿ ਖਰਿਆ॥
 ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸਾਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ॥ ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਇਆ॥
 ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦੀ ਉਤਪੱਤੀ ਰੱਬੀ ਹੁਕਮਾਂ ਜਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ  ਅਤੇ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਰਹੇਗੀ। “ਮਾਤ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੇ” --- ਭਾਵ, ਇੱਕ ਨਿਯਮ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਸਾਜਨਾ ਹੋ  ਰਹੀ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਵੀ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਗਲਤੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਿਯਮ ਟੁਟਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਗਰਭ ਵਿਚੋਂ  ਬੱਚਾ ਗਿਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਧਰਤੀ ਦੀ ਕੁੱਖ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਹੀ ਦਰੱਖਤ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਜੋ  ਮਨੁੱਖ ਚੁੱਪ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਲਗੀਧਰ ਐਸੇ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਰੱਖਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਦਰਜਾ ਨਹੀਂ  ਦੇਂਦੇ।
 “ਤਰਵਰ ਸਦੀਵ ਮੋਨ ਸਾਧੇ ਹੀ ਮਰਤ ਹੈ”
 ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲ ਹੈ, ਖੂਬਸੂਰਤ ਪਹਾੜ, ਬਾਗ, ਸੁੰਦਰ ਦਰਿਆਵਾਂ  ਦੇ ਵਹਿਣ, ਸੋਹਣੇ ਜੰਗਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਉੱਤਮ ਕਾਰਾਗਰੀ ਦੇ ਨਮੂਨੇ ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਸਾਰਾ ਕੁੱਝ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ  ਨਿਯਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਹੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਸੂਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਪੱਥਰ  ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਕੁੱਝ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਵੇਰਵਾ ਭਾਈ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਸਿੰਘ  ਜੀ ਨਾਭਾ ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼ ਵਿੱਚ ਲਿਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਕਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਨੌਂ ਲੱਖ ਜਲ—ਵਾਸੀ, ਦਸ ਲੱਖ ਹਵਾ  ਵਿੱਚ ਉੱਡਣ ਵਾਲੇ, ਵੀਹ ਲੱਖ ਇਸਥਿਤ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਬ੍ਰਿਛ, ਗਿਆਰਾਂ ਲੱਖ ਪੇਟ ਦੇ ਬਲ ਨਾਲ ਤੁਰਨ  ਵਾਲੇ, ਤੀਹ ਲੱਕ ਚਉਪਾਏ, ਚਾਰ ਲੱਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਦਿ ਮੰਨਦੇ ਹਨ। ਜੈਨ ਮਤ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਸੱਤ ਲੱਖ  ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ, ਸਤ ਲੱਖ ਜਲ, ਸਤ ਲੱਖ ਹਵਾ, ਸਤ ਲੱਖ ਅਗਨ, ਸਤ ਲੱਖ ਕੰਦਮੂਲ, ਚੌਦਾਂ ਲੱਖ ਝਾੜੀ ਬ੍ਰਿਛ,  ਦੋ ਲੱਖ ਇੱਕ ਇੰਦਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ, ਦੋ ਲੱਖ ਤਿੰਨ ਇੰਦਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ, ਚਾਰ ਲੱਖ ਦੇਵਤੇ, ਪੰਜ ਲੱਖ ਨਰਕ ਦੇ  ਜੀਵ, ਚੌਦਾਂ ਲੱਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤੀ ਤੇ ਚਾਰ ਲੱਖ ਚਉਪਾਏ ਆਦਿ ਦੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਢੰਗ ਨਾਲ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ।  ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਬੇਅੰਤਤਾ ਇੱਕ ਵਾਕ ਆਖਿਆ ਹੈ।
 ਅੰਤ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਕਾਰ॥ ਅੰਤ ਨਾ ਜਾਪੈ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰ॥
 ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਕਹਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਪੱਥਰ, ਪਹਾੜ, ਚਟਾਨਾਂ, ਰੁੱਖ,  ਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਗਰਭ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਗਿਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਦਿ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਕ੍ਰਿਆ  ਹੈ। ਅੱਜ ਦਾ ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਵਾਤਾਵਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਤਰਜੀਹ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਵਾਤਾਵਰਨ ਅੰਦਰ  ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਸਹਾਇਤਾ ਲਈ, ਰੁੱਖਾਂ ਪਹਾੜਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ, ਦਰਿਆਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਹੇ ਆਦਮ  ਦੀ ਸੰਤਾਨ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਨਿਕਲਣ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕਰ। ਜਦ ਆਦਮੀ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਜ਼ਿਲ ਨਾ  ਲੱਭ ਰਹੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਅਕਸਰ ਕਹਿ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹਾਂ। ਗੁਰੂ  ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ ਕਰਇਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਾਤ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਕਰਤੂਤ  ਤੇਰੀ ਪਸ਼ੂਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ। ਰੁੱਖ ਤੋਂ ਸਿੱਧਾ ਆਦਮੀ ਬਣ ਜਾਣਾ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਲ ਹੈ। ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਦਰੱਖਤ ਦਾ  ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਵੀ ਇੱਕ ਨਿਯਮ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਬੀਜ, ਮੌਸਮ ਤੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਦੇ ਅਨੁਕੂਲ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਤਾਂ  ਪੌਦੇ ਦਾ ਬਣਨਾ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਲ ਹੈ। ਪੌਦਾ ਉੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਵੱਡਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਖਤਮ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਅਗਾਂਹ  ਪੌਦਾ ਫਿਰ ਤਿਆਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਏਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਤੋਂ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਦੀ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਤਿਆਰ  ਹੋਣਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਪੱਕਾ ਨਿਯਮ ਹੈ।
 ਉਪਰੋਕਤ ਦੋ ਬੰਦਾਂ ਅੰਦਰ ਕੁੱਝ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕੀਤੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਮਨੁੱਖੀ  ਕਦਰਾਂ ਕੀਮਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਗਿਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਹੀ ਜਿਉਂਦੇ ਜੀਅ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਘੁੰਮਣਾ ਹੈ। ਤੀਸਰੇ ਬੰਦ ਵਿੱਚ  ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਅਸਲੀ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ ਨੁਕਤਾ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ।
 ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਿ ਭਇਓ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ॥ ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ॥
 ਤਿਆਗ ਮਾਨੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ॥ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ॥
 ਅਸੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਸਲੀ ਸਮਝ ਬੈਠੇ ਹਾਂ। ਕੋਈ ਮਾਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਬੱਚੇ ਨੂੰ  ਹੱਥ ਦੀ ਉਂਗਲ਼ ਨਾਲ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਦਿਖਾਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਬੱਚਾ ਆਪਣੀ ਨਦਾਨ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਕਰਕੇ ਉਂਗਲ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ  ਚੰਦਰਮਾਂ ਸਮਝ ਬੈਠਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇੰਜ ਹੀ ਅਸਲੀ ਤੱਤ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਸਮਝਦਿਆਂ ਮਰਨ ਉਪਰੰਤ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਅਸਲੀ  ਜੀਵਨ ਸਮਝ ਬੈਠੇ ਹਾਂ। ਸਰੀਰ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਾਤਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਅਤੇ ਆਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗ ਦੁਆਰਾ  ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਾਡੇ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਕਈ ਪਰਕਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਚਿੰਤਾਵਾਂ, ਈਰਖਾਵਾਂ ਤੇ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਰੂਪੀ ਜਮ ਚਿੰਬੜੇ  ਹੋਏ ਹਨ। ਅਸਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਹੀ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਘੁਮਾਈ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ। ਗਹਿਰਾ ਨੁਕਤਾ ਸਾਡੇ  ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਹੈ, “ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਿ ਭਇਓ ਜਨਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ”॥ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਸਿੱਧਾ ਸਾਦਾ ਉੱਤਰ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੀ  ਸੰਗਤ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਹੀ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਨਵਾਂ ਜਨਮ ਮਿਲ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਕੇ ਪੁਰਾਣਾ ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਜਾਤ ਖਤਮ ਹੋ  ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਤਮਿਕ ਜਨਮ ਤਥਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕੀਤੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਸਾਧ ਦਾਂ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ ਗੁਰੂ  ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ, ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਖਲਕਤ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਆਤਮਿਕ ਸੂਝ  ਦਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਜਗਦਾ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਭਾਵ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਦੀਵੇ  ਦਾ ਨਾ ਜਗਣਾ, ਔਝੜ ਰਸਤੇ ਪਿਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਟਕਣਾ ਹੈ। ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਣ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਲੱਕਸ਼ ਵੀ  ਰੱਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਝੂਠ ਨਾ ਬੋਲਣ ਦਾ ਅਭਿਆਸ ਕਰਨਾ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ। ਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ ਤੋਂ ਉੱਪਰ ਉੱਠਣ ਲਈ  ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਾ ਲੱਕਸ਼ ਦਰਸਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। “ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ” – ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੇ  ਸਰਦਾਰ ਦਾ ਉੱਚਾ ਆਦਰਸ਼ ਮਿੱਥਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਬੰਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ ਨਵੇਂ ਜਨਮ ਨੂੰ ਤਜਵੀਜ਼ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ  ਹੈ। ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਰਵਾਨ ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਗਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਜ਼ਿਉਂਦਿਆਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ  ਖਤਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਘੁੰਮ ਰਹੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਾਂ। ਗੁਰੁ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਅਸਲੀ ਜੀਵਨ, ਜਾਂ  ਅਸਲੀ ਜਨਮ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤੀ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਕੇ ਰੋਜ਼ਮਰਾ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਢਾਲਣ ਲਈ  ਆਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਸੇਵਾ, ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨੂੰ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਨਾ, ਝੂਠ, ਅਭਿਮਾਨ ਦਾ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਰਨਾ, ਜ਼ਿਉਂਦਿਆਂ  ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਮਰਨਾ ਹੀ ਸੱਚੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਰਵਾਨ ਹੋਣਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੀਨ ਹੋਣਾ ਹਰ  ਵੇਲੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਇਸ ਧਰਤੀ ਤੇ ਹੀ ਰੱਬੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਰਵਾਨ ਹੋਣਾ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਗਿਆ  ਹੈ।
 ਸਦੀਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਨੇ ਪੇਟ—ਪੂਰਤੀ ਦਾ ਸਾਧਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਲੁਕਾਈ  ਨੂੰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਪਾ ਕੇ, ਸੱਚ ਖੰਡ ਭੇਜਣ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਰਦਾਸਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਮਤ ਦੀ ਤਰਜ਼ ਤੇ ਕਰ  ਰਹੇ ਹਾਂ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥ ਨੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਾਮ ਦਾ ਪਿਛਲੱਗ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਸਮਝਣ ਦਾ ਯਤਨ  ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਾਂ। ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀਆਂ ਪਹਿਲੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਹਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਆਮ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦਾ  ਭੈ ਦੇਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਸੀਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੋਚ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਮਾਤ ਪਾ ਗਏ ਹਾਂ। ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਅਸਲੀ ਆਦਰਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਅੱਖੋਂ  ਪਰੋਖੇ ਕਰ ਗਏ ਹਾਂ। ਅਖੀਰਲੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਰੱਬੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਉਣ ਨੂੰ  ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ।
 ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੋਆ ਸੁ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਹੋਗੁ॥ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ॥
 ਤਾ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਲੈਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ॥
 ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੋ ਵੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਸਾਰਾ ਰੱਬੀ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਪੈਦਾ  ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਰੁੱਖ, ਪੱਥਰ, ਦਰਿਆ, ਜੀਵ ਜੰਤੂ, ਗੱਲ ਕੀ ਹਰ ਹਰਕਤ “ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਹੋਗੁ” ਕਰਕੇ ਬਿਆਨਿਆ  ਹੈ। ਚੰਗੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਿੱਥ ਲਈਆਂ ਹਨ। “ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ” ---  ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਆਦਮੀ ਰੱਬੀ ਨਿਯਮਾਵਲੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਿਯਮ  ਅਸੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣਾ ਸਕਦੇ। “ਤਾ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਲੈਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ” – ਜੇਕਰ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਰੱਬੀ ਹੁਕਮ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ  ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਪਨਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ “ਮਿਲੀਐ” ਦੀ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਹੈ। ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਬਦਲ ਲੈਣਾ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਦੀ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਹੈ। “ਗੁਣਿ ਗਾਇ” ਤੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਸਪੂੰਨਤਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਅਰਥ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ  ਕਿ ਹਰ ਵੇਲੇ ਆਦਮੀ ਗਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੀ ਰਹੇ। ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਹੈ, ਫਿਰ  ਆਪਣੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਢਾਲਣਾ ਹੈ। ਦਰ ਅਸਲ ਆਪਣੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੀ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਿਆ  ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ।
 ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨਾਲ ਜੋ ਖਿਆਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਉਦਾਹਰਣ ਦੇ ਕੇ  ਗੁਰਮਤ ਦੇ ਨੁਕਤੇ ਨੂੰ ਅਸੀਂ ਹੋਰ ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਮਝ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਾਂ। ਮਿਸ਼ਨਰੀ ਕਾਲਜ ਲੁਧਿਆਣੇ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ  ਦੁਅਰਾ ਛੱਪਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਇੱਕ ਵੀਹ ਕਬਿੱਤਾਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਕਿਤਾਬਚੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ  ਖਿਆਲ ਜੋ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਪਾਖੰਡੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਗਧਾ, ਸੂਰ, ਹਾਥੀ, ਮ੍ਰਿਗ, ਹੀਜੜਾ, ਬਾਂਦਰ,  ਤੇ ਦਰੱਖਤ ਕਰਕੇ ਬਿਆਨਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਕਿਤੇ ਬਗਲਾ, ਬਘਿਆੜ, ਬਿੱਲਾ ਤੇ ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਡਣ ਵਾਲੀ  ਸਮਰੱਥਾ ਰੱਖਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਛੀ ਆਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਕਰਤੇ ਦੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਹੈ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਕੀ ਹੱਕ  ਹੈ ਕਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਤ ਭਾਵ ਉਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾੜਾ ਆਖੀਏ। ਸਾਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ  ਹੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਦੀ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕਿਰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਵੱਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਨਿਵੇਕਲਾ ਆਤਮਿਕ  ਜਨਮ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ। ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਘਬਰਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਸਗੋਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਜੂਨ ਸੰਵਾਰਨ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ  ਹੈ।


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 27, 2009)

SAt shri akal,



> that is also what is meant by rebirth at khandeh batte dee pahul.... we are supposed to CUT OFF our HEAD....leave behind the OLD HEAD..and recieve a NEW HEAD...leave MANMATT of the Old days.....and adopt GURMATT of the coming new days. Here no body actually physically cuts his head off...no surgeon sews a new head back on to our neck....its all "SPIRITUAL CLEANSING"... FROM that DAY on we are to spiritually beleive in parents Guru GOBIND SINGH JI..birthplace KESHGARH sahib....no need to go changing ones BIRTH Certificate/passport etc to reflect the "Change" !!!! IF that were the case Guru gobind Sngh Ji would be listed as Father on 25 million passports and birthplace as keshgarh on millions of certs and documents...BUT many still go on emphasising "Physical..changes..births..reincarnations..rebirt hs..etc etc when there is absolutley NO PROOF of any such as no one has come back to say he is now a cow...or snake...et c etc


 
This is as false as my wisdom 
Becoming a khalsa is symbolic there is no use of getting baptized if you think it will bring change in you,yes if you already are a saint soldier it is an honor for you to get baptized.In short it is a trophy for those who had won internal fight who are already enlightened ready to serve the humanity and who don't care for their heads and thats the reason why Guru sahib put those first 5 Sikhs to test and didn't asked everyone to come and get baptized fools like me and you go straight way and get baptized take my words there really is no use of it.........................

Jai Mahakal

~~sainty~~
~~Wald Guru Nanak~~


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