# Simran Experiences - "As The Inner Vision Is Awakened, One Comes To Know One's Own Home, Deep Within



## chazSingh (May 29, 2012)

najar bh*ee* ghar ghar th*ae* j*aa*n*i**aa* ||2||
_*As the inner vision is awakened, one comes to know one's own home, deep within the self. ||2||
*Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Gauree 153_ 

Satnaam Sat Sangat Ji, 
I would like to start this thread so that other sangat members can share their experiences with Meditation and Simran. 
Have you been blessed with this inner vision? What do you see? how does this vision make you feel?

From my own experience, Guru Ji has blessed me with this inner vision during meditiation and Simran. People say that when you are blessed with this you shouldnt tell others. I dissagree because this is what the sangat is for, to share, to help others and to uplift each other.

God Bless all.


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## Taranjeet singh (May 29, 2012)

Responding to your query, it is stated that I am a beginner and can concentrate, or rather pretend myself of doing so, only for 15 minutes. There is no experience and yet It is felt that with passage of time , as the faith develops, I shall also have that is destined for me. Shall seek your guidance from time to time. 

Regards!


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## chazSingh (May 29, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Responding to your query, it is stated that I am a beginner and can concentrate, or rather pretend myself of doing so, only for 15 minutes. There is no experience and yet It is felt that with passage of time , as the faith develops, I shall also have that is destined for me. Shall seek your guidance from time to time.
> 
> Regards!


 
Satnaam Taranjeet Ji,

We're all beginners in this, and we're all friends and companions and because of forums like this, we can all come together in our search for the truth.

When we want to climb a mountain...you may not see the sumit and question whether you can make it to the top. but we may come across someone who has been a quarter of the way up...they assist us in getting to that point, then we may meet someone thats been half way up, and they also assist us, and then in turn we assist others to get half way and so on....this is power of the sangat that SGGS Ji always talks about

I have not reached any destination...but just hope the sangat is open to discussing such subjects and guiding each other a long.

15 minutes is perfect , do not feel down if you cannot concentrate for longer...it used to annoy me soo much when i tried to concentrate on the mantra 'Satnaam' or 'Waheguru' and my mind kept coming up with thoughts about money, women etc...it wouldnt let me concentrate. but just keep working at it, the mind starts to setlle eventuallyand you'll find that you'll start to enjoy longer periods. Its your 5 thieves that do not want you to setlle, they want you to be following them. they're very persistant 

Oh, i also used to think i'll never get time to do simran or meditate, then i just thought that well i go to sleep every night, why dont i lie in bed and quietly do simran in my mind, eyes closed...it doesnt matter if i fell as sleep, it got me in the routine of doing simran...which helped a lot.

anyway sorry for talking so much...would be good to hear how you progress


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## Archived_Member16 (May 29, 2012)

*Thought to ponder:*


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## TruthSatnaam (May 29, 2012)

Satnaam 

One of the first things a Truth Seeker should learn is that we should never assess where we are as spiritual beings- we know nothing- only he is a knower (this is a pyschology of a simplistic mind).

A spiritual mind is a silenced mind- a mind without countless wonder is a mind without countless expectations and assessments of how things should be and turn out/ even feel.
 If we have guessed/estimated how an experience should take shape or form- we will never recognise it for it didnt match our pre-conceived perception.  

The thing is, that this path never ends. The discoveries of Truth are infinite, just like God himself- they are endless.

However, the Perfection of the Heart is within reach- a perfect heart is the heart that lives in Truth. This path is not about flying to different realms and performing white magic(siddhis), Darshans are not our aim(for they are still within image and the Truth is beyond image as described in Gurbani)-we already receive Darshans every moment- It is Him pervading all around us(& He is Us) afterall. This path is about living the Truth in each precious, gifted moment. 

To reach the unbreakable state (Atal Awastha) where the heart is constantly pure/perfect- we must be in complete acceptance at all time of karma with Nirvair and Nirbhoa- to be in complete acceptance of the universe and the creation, of their actions of how they live regardless of being spiritual or not- for the universe is in a state it deserves. 
  Regardless all the downfalls in life we can still accept it all as Truth(Hukam/God)- to then never react in anger, or spite, or jealousy, envy, ridicule and disrespect.

When a soul has disregarded himself as nothing, lives at the feet of others (neechai ka neech)- and on finding the death of themselves (into true acceptance of God being their keeper)- then the soul is an unbreakable state refered to as Atal Awastha. Remember that in Truth- we have no image, our true origin is the silence of Nothing- this is what God discovered himself to be after many ages- it is a frequency beyond which maya dwellers can comprehend.  Hence we always accept all as Nothing(As Truth or Sat-Satnaam).

God Bless You


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## Luckysingh (May 29, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Responding to your query, it is stated that I am a beginner and can concentrate, or rather pretend myself of doing so, only for 15 minutes. There is no experience and yet It is felt that with passage of time , as the faith develops, I shall also have that is destined for me. Shall seek your guidance from time to time.
> 
> Regards!


 
Time is not really a big issue, or it shouldn't be made as one. 
I always try not to focus or pay attention to time and this way it helps.
Sometimes you can be meditating for only 5 minutes and it feels like 30 minutes and vica versa.
It comes with time, be patient though. 
Don't expect anything ,just let it happen and you will be surprised.

I personally find saying 'waheguru' is easier than anything else but you can try whatever suits you or you seem more personally familiar with.


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## Ambarsaria (May 29, 2012)

Bhain TruthSatnaam ji wonderful post.





TruthSatnaam said:


> Satnaam
> 
> One of the first things a Truth Seeker should learn is that we should never assess where we are as spiritual beings- we know nothing- only he is a knower (this is a pyschology of a simplistic mind).
> 
> ...


_In SGGS there is a concept often referred to as "Continuously or Always Aware".__  It is a very fundamental teaching and guidance._

_What are examples of continuously aware,
_

_You see an animal, a bird and such and you marvel_
_You make eye contact and the two souls touch each other_

_You interact with a person over the internet_
_You get pleasant feeling, your souls touch and you generate happiness out of little effort_

_You do a spontaneous act of generosity or goodwill towards someone_
_A spark of love flies_

_Even observing yourself where you are at any instance in time and recognizing that to be a unique moment as each moment is unique in life that could not be so preplanned in minute detail if we so observe_
_The more you experience "awe or moments there of", the more you are closer to the creator and the creation so in consonance.__  I find doing it for self through various methods or techniques is rather selfish but it is not for me to guide others if they so enjoy.

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> *ਜੋ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਮਜਾ ਆਉਂਦਾ* *ਇਹ ਕੁਸ਼ ਹੋਰ ਹੀ ਹੈ** / The joy you get making others happiness is something totally different*


​_So taking it beyond enjoyment and making it a way of life is perhaps an equally noble or valid objective to consider._


Sat Sri Akal​


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

TruthSatnaam said:


> Satnaam
> 
> One of the first things a Truth Seeker should learn is that we should never assess where we are as spiritual beings- we know nothing- only he is a knower (this is a pyschology of a simplistic mind).
> 
> ...


 
TruthSatnaam Ji,

This is a very nice post. 
One of the first things i started realising on this path is that the Ego should be held to one side as much as possible. That we should never think that we are the doer, or that our efforts are providing the experiences.

EVERYTHING is him, we are just the spectator. Even the thoughts or the motivation to sit and meditate or do Seva is his Grace, his Will that is doing everything.

I for one, don;t care where i am spiritually, or what realms i traverse through. As of yet i haven't felt scared or un-comfortable with what i've experienced and that I hope is the love for Guru Ji that always protects me. Always keep hold of the sounds and vibration of Waheguru and Satnaam, they'll keep you moving in the right path and safely.

My biggest blockage was to accept and believe that god is within me, and that i don't need to go anywhere but to understand that all can be experiences within. Once i got over that blockage i started to understand that God is one with me at all times and it is He that is meditating with me  This will open you up to all that is Him. 

Everything is is Gurbani, both the technology and info of the spiritual path.
God bless you all on your journey.


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## Harry Haller (May 30, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> najar bh*ee* ghar ghar th*ae* j*aa*n*i**aa* ||2||
> _*As the inner vision is awakened, one comes to know one's own home, deep within the self. ||2||*_
> _Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Gauree 153_
> 
> ...


 
Chazji

I would actually go as far as to say that prayer, meditation, naam japping, Simran all distract from the true philosophy of Sikhism. 

One should attempt to be in connection with Creator at all times, to 'set aside' time for repetition of words, divine requests, silent breathing rituals, and recitation, in my mind, only clears the white noise that plagues us all, only for it to return once these activities have ceased. 

Our minds, in my opinion, need to learn, they need to absorb information, they need to be educated, only then can, slowly, this white noise subside to allow that connection to be made, permanently. 

There is nothing magical or even spiritual about Sikhism in my opinion, its all quite simple, learn the truth, live the truth, share what you have, go out into society and make a difference. 

This hiding away in dark rooms seems to me to be only for the self :interestedsingh:


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

*POWER OF ATTENTION (Consciousness).*

Someone once said to me - if you want to understand god, try to understand consciousness.

one of the biggest attributes of consciousness is ATTENTION. We can draw our attention to anything and we become conscious of it, one with it.

listening to music...there are lots of instruments, yet you get drawn by a particular sound, the sounds of the violen, your attention moves to just the violin, all other sounds become dim, you become one with the violin, untill you're attention is drawn else where. For that moment your consciousness/attention is one with the violin.

The attention, when taken to between your eyebrows raises your consciousness to that level...the more you practice this the more you're attention withdraws from the outer world or other areas of your body. This took me a while to master...used to get headaches...but what worked for me was to just relax, imagine yourself floating just behind your eyes. your eyes will naturally look up towards the centre of your eyesbrows but it will reduce any chance of headaches.

At the same time always listening to the sounds and vibration of the words Satnaam and Waheguru...really listening to each sound carefully.

Ego, Desires, Lust etc etc always took my attention away from all of the above with thoughts and images of women flashing into my mind, but a quick shake of the head, a little stretch and i was back into the meditation again. I didnt know this at first but it was myself coming face to face with my subconscious mind...the ugliness in my character.

Again, this worked for me, but others may have found their own useful methods.

God bless all.


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> I would actually go as far as to say that prayer, meditation, naam japping, Simran all distract from the true philosophy of Sikhism.
> 
> ...


 
If you TRUELY believe that your whole existence, life force, breathing, cell rejuvination, hair growth, feelings of love, honesty for all is due to the EXISTANCE OF GOD WITHIN YOU. then you'll start to understand why taking a little time to connect with this life force is worth EVERYTHING TO YOU.

Yes i agree that you dont need to experience got within to experience him on the outside....I do believe that the whole experience and joy of his creation take a completely different level when you manage to connect on the inside.

God bless you.


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## Harry Haller (May 30, 2012)

> If you TRUELY believe that your whole existence, life force, breathing, cell rejuvination, hair growth, feelings of love, honesty for all is due to the EXISTANCE OF GOD WITHIN YOU. .


 
I do truly believe this



> then you'll start to understand why taking a little time to connect with this life force is worth EVERYTHING TO YOU.


 
I also understand this, however what you are doing, in my opinion, is not connecting, as you have stated, you are merely listening to one instrument out of an entire orchestra. It also requires effort, and it requires a mantra, the same word spoken again and again, 

In my view, connecting is living, when we live truthfully and as per Bani, then we are able to not only hear the whole orchestra, but see it too. 

I think we can both agree that this connection is a good thing for a Sikh, the issue is how do we achieve it, meditation or action


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I do truly believe this
> 
> I think we can both agree that this connection is a good thing for a Sikh, the issue is how do we achieve it, meditation or action


 
Yup, we both agree on this connection.
The thing is, there is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 
And SGGS Ji contains the truth and nothing but the truth, and the steps are made so clear and precise, laid out so beautifully, yet our mind confuses it all, raises doubts, questions.

I do not profess to know anything or everything. I'm only talking from my own experiences. yours and the sangats may be different. But when i read gurbani it clearly states levels of raised awareness and consciosunes and how to attain it. Rather than questions, doubt, i put into practice what it was saying, and i've started to experience the things that it is describing. That is my proof, my own internal proof that guru ji provides. Guru Ji (internal) had to fight all my trillions of doubts, i'm so glad guru ji is very persistant.

The doubts start to deminish, the fears start to deminish and then Guru Ji says to you "i told you so" 
The fear of death starts to go away because all the things I thought were just fairytales as described in gurbani, you start to actually experience. We can all do this.

I posted something on another thread of my journey so far...will post it again if anyone would like to read it.

I say 'my journey' but there is no 'Me' or 'I' in this...it is all him, we just need to surrender.


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

A message I left on another thread of my inner feeling and experiences:

in Sikhi: *Guru is the bani (shabad/word) and bani (shabad/word) is the guru*
in christianity: *in the beginning was the Word (shabad), the word was with god...the word WAS GOD*

In our reality exists the outer world, and the inner world (within our own body)
on the inside exists the Anhad Shabad (unstruck sound current/Shabad/the word)
on the outside exists the Sound current/shabad/word in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

While we cannot at first hear the inner sound current. We can start to meditate on the outer word/shabad/gurbani. This will eventually tune your consciousness into being able to hear the inner sound current.

There are two stages if your thirst, hunger and Love exists to experience god...only then do you get the gurpursaad.

*1st stage: *
najar bhee ghar ghar thae jaaniaa ||2||
*As the inner vision is awakened, one comes to know one's own home, deep within the self*. ||2||Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Raag Gauree , 153 

I am 32 years old, was a disgusting shameless sinner...i still Sin, but the thirst for Guru Ji was welling up so much i was going to explode, and Guru Ji has awakened this inner vision. I now am Shown this inner vision every day when i meditate and do Simran. I say that i am shown, because i don't actually do anything...its all guru ji...i'm just the spectator. The visions are beautiful...sometimes you can feel the true amrit inside cleaning you up 

*2nd Stage:*


When you mediate on the word, the shabad, the gurbani. Sounds/vibrations of Satnaam and Waheguru...your consciosness is being lifted very gradually to prepare you for hearing the inner Word/Shabad. 

gur kee baanee naam vajaaeae ||
*Through the Word of the Guru's Bani, the Naam resounds; Raag Aasaa 
*362 

At the moment during my meditation/Simran i have not come across the inner Anhad shabad. but it WILL happen when the time is right and when i am ready for it. 
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38569

*By His Grace, you listen to the sound current of the Naad*.
Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Raag Gauree, 270 

At first it will sound like drums and various instruments that we are already accustomed to:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38569

nehathaa sabadh vaaja(n)th bhaeree ||1|| rehaao ||
*The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad is the vibration of the temple drums*. ||1||Pause||

Once you hear the INNER shabad, you then put your attention towards it like when you hear a song that you love in a crowded market. This inner shabad will then gradually take you into higher spirtiual realms where you draw closer to god realisation.

guramukh dhhiaan sehaj dhhun oupajai sach naam chith laaeiaa ||
*The Gurmukh meditates on the Lord; the celestial sound-current resounds within him, and he focuses his consciousness on the True Name.
*Raag Gujri, 512


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I do truly believe this
> 
> 
> 
> I also understand this, however what you are doing, in my opinion, is not connecting, as you have stated, you are merely listening to one instrument out of an entire orchestra. It also requires effort, and it requires a mantra, the same word spoken again and again,


 
The example of the instrument was to show the power of attention. When i started to put my attention to this point (in betweeen the eyebrows and behind the eyes) on a daily basis, practicing it together with mediation on the shabad....i believe that process is what unlocked the inner vision.

But none of this would have happened i believe if my internal guru cannot feel the love pouring out the heart.


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## Harry Haller (May 30, 2012)

Chazji

I hate having these debates with you, I think I have already mentioned that.

 I do not have your passion or your love, but we are all different, I respect you brother, I just don't agree with you mundahug


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> I hate having these debates with you, I think I have already mentioned that.
> 
> I do not have your passion or your love, but we are all different, I respect you brother, I just don't agree with you mundahug


 
And i totally respect you also Ji,

When i came onto this forum, i found hundreds of people all saying "i think" or "i believe", or "i dont think its possible" etc etc. 
I didnt come across many people saying "I tried to do this for some months, and experienced this" or "this didnt work for me but i tried this instead and had great results"

There wasnt many people trying things out and experimenting so thats why i tried to take a different approach thats all. Or maybe they just were not being heard.


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## Taranjeet singh (May 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> I would actually go as far as to say that prayer, meditation, naam japping, Simran all distract from the true philosophy of Sikhism.
> 
> ...



It confuses me when someone writes as learn the truth and live the truth.  It is my problem that I do not fully appreciate the message contained in these terms.. But the way I conceive the truth is to practice Bani and live it as Gyani ji and your good self has mentioned in numerous posts. Bani clearly states to do simran/ naam jap/ contemplation and meditation .In fact it is also clearly stated the Amritvella is the best time for this. I cannot do it as early rising is slightly difficult for me, This is my weakness. I shall and should not make my weakness as an alibi for not doing these things at all. I may do it during day time or evening hours when the body is ready and mind is at rest. May be tomorrow when I am blessed by Grace that I may start doing it in early hours. But It shall not be fit for me to adjust Bani as per my convenience and feel satisfied with.

Harry ji, Could you kindly explain as to :What is the meaning when you say ,'learn the truth' and  'live the truth'.?What are the components of learning the truth and that of living the truth.? It is believed that keeping control over five passions and complete surrender of ego should be included in these. Having overcome these one should do simran/naam jap etc. else one should not be living as per Bani. It is personal view of things only.

Kindly explain as to what exactly do you mean by these terms so that your message is fully understood. It is not a debate , it is simple question to rationalize your posts more meaningfully.


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> In fact it is also clearly stated the Amritvella is the best time for this. I cannot do it as early rising is slightly difficult for me, This is my weakness. I shall and should not make my weakness as an alibi for not doing these things at all. I may do it during day time or evening hours when the body is ready and mind is at rest. May be tomorrow when I am blessed by Grace that I may start doing it in early hours. But It shall not be fit for me to adjust Bani as per my convenience and feel satisfied with.


 
You are correct brother, Amrit vela is the most beneficial time. Many people are sleeping, brain waves are reduced, very tranquil and spiritually charged time of the day.

I have attempted regular Simran during amrit Vela, it is very difficult and by Guru Ji's grace i will one day be doing this regulary. But myself personally i found taking small steps most beneficial. doing Simran 'daily' at any possible time...this will pave the way for then longer simran sessions at any possible time, and then one day this will have planted the seeds for amrit vela.

I do ardaas when going to sleep asking guru ji to wake me up during the night for when he wants me to do simran. i used to be awoken at about 5am regularly and even though sleep used to overcome me i tried to do as much simran as possible just lying in bed before i fell asleep. this could be 2 minutes, 10 mintes etc...doesnt matter...we're planting the seeds to greater things.

On one blessed night i managed to stay away for 2 hours during amrit vela with very good simran concentration. It was the most blissfull, pins and needles feeling all over when in deep meditation 

I hope Guru Ji Blesses me and the whole sangat with regular amrit vela.


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## Harry Haller (May 30, 2012)

> Harry ji, Could you kindly explain as to :What is the meaning when you say ,'learn the truth' and 'live the truth'.?What are the components of learning the truth and that of living the truth.? It is believed that keeping control over five passions and complete surrender of ego should be included in these. Having overcome these one should do simran/naam jap etc. else one should not be living as per Bani. It is personal view of things only.


 
Taranjeetji

I can only tell you what my interpretation is, and I must warn you, every Sikh I have had a discussion with has ended the discussion in anger and proclaimed that I am no Sikh at all, and I am bringing shame to Sikhi with my views. However, as you have asked, it is easier to state what I believe by way of events occuring

4.30 am-wake up
4.45 am- realise am not going to get back to sleep and inform wife, who is looking at me with one eye open, and decide to goto shop.
5.15 am dressed and as it is a lovely day, my inner Hukam tells me to walk to work and contemplate bani, when I do this, I internally debate concepts, the meaning of life, is it wrong to want a Range Rover, can one be humble and wealthy, etc etc, a walk to work (3 miles) is truthful living in my view, but I steal wifes car instead
5.30 am at work-first thing I do is read this forum, I note others opinions, I try and see their point of view, sometimes I find myself validated, sometimes I do not, either way, I figure I learn something, each customer I deal with, I try and be brutally honest, I buy and sell IT equipment, I believe it is right to always offer a fair price regardless what they think it is worth,

7.30am drive home again and give car to wife, cuddle dog and stroke cat, although I am in a rush to get back to work, wife gives me lift

9am, a server comes in, indicating he will take £20, it is quite high spec and worth nearer £200, but I just do not have the heart to steal it from him, I offer to ebay it on his behalf, taking expenses only, as he is 'broke', , 


Throughout the day people wander in and out, some wish to talk, some have problems, I try my best to listen, to advise, sometimes I am rushed, and I have to cut people short, I feel bad then, as Creator has directed someone to me and I have failed them, or at times I feel selfish, but on the whole, I try my best to be everyones friend, and try and spread a bit of cheer, I make people laugh, I do my best to be truthful in business, sometimes it costs me a lot of money, sometimes people think I have another agenda, sometimes I will refuse a part exchange on account it is better than what they are buying, and just needs a cheap fix, in my head, I think I know what is right and wrong, truthful living is doing what your heart tells you is right, 

12pm A local shopkeeper comes in for gossip, I smile and nod, but refuse to get drawn in, although it is tempting, as it is quite juicy gossip, but it feels wrong

1pm An extremely attractive woman comes in selling a laptop, I note she is wearing a low cut top, I spend the entire conversation looking directly at her eyes and behaving like a professional, of course there is a part of me like all men that wishes to have a quick peek, but again, a big red light is flashing in my head with 'wrong' written all over it, I buy the laptop and pay a fair price.

1.30pm Some hard drives I order arrive, they are the wrong size, I check the order and realise I have ordered wrongly, I inform vendor who offers to pay return shipping, I point out it was my mistake, he retracts his kind offer, and also states that any refund will be minus outgoing shipping as well, but thats ok, the red light is not flashing

2.00pm find screen for laptop that I should have ordered a new one for, fits perfect and is in new condition, ring customer and inform screen is used and discount accordingly

3.pm go to local cafe where owner has made tandoori chicken on my suggestion as a way of increading sales, he has only sold 5 pieces, which leave 6, feel honour bound to purchase remaining 6 and eat them for lunch, truthful living has its benefits....

3.30pm, read your post and decide instead of waffling on about being honest, truthful and brave, simply recount the day and let you make your own mind up about what I am talking about

When I go home tonight, before I sleep, I will think about today, as I do every day, and rate myself as to how honest, and how truthful was my day, did I lie, did I deceive, was I humble, at any point did I try and play the big man, were all lustful thoughts directed at my wife, if anyone had annoyed me, did I forgive them, and make an effort to disolve any bad feelings, after this, I may run a hot bath and sit in it for an hour, in the bath, I will relax and debate another topic, at present, it is in fact something Chazji has stated, 'if we do not rehabilitate then the whole world will be in darkness', its a good point and it has thrown me, so it requires time to think, to play out scenarious, to try and touch base with God inside me, my Godhead, to see what it thinks, my wife may wander in, and I will debate it with her, my dog will wander in, and I will debate it with him, if I cannot sleep, then I will wake at 3am, wake my wife, and debate it with her again, to date, she has never refused, and will listen to me at any time, although to be fair, the red light does flash before I shake her awake

hope that helps

4.15pm read post again after posting, feel it makes my point in a simple fashion, but makes me look like a simpleton rather than an educated scholar making a thrusting point, inetrnally debate whether I am writing for maximum number of thanks, or whether I am just being 'me' and honest, realise I could make the point a lot better and a lot more succint, but red light starts flashing, so leave it as is


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

Keep it up harry Ji.

I work in I.T also, maybe we will cross paths in the future 
no one here is saying what is right and wrong, we're just throwing in all of our experiences, the roads we've taken, things we've tried...this is good sangat.
And people shouldn't get angry or upset at you for your views. they need to look long and hard at themselves for why EGO, and ANGER are running their behaviour.

The process of 'seeking' the truth, all the contemplations, asking oneself questions is all done under the grace of god. Maybe one day you will try Simran/meditation...maybe you won't but you'll be guided by your internal guru on your own destined path. Keep talking to him, keep demanding answers...tell guru ji within yourself that you can't be bothered with all the nonsense and you want just the truth.


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## Ambarsaria (May 30, 2012)

Taranjeet Singh ji, Harry Haller ji and Chazsingh ji thanks for your posts.  Great discourse.

I see that at times we are looking at two sides of the same coin.  I believe the following goes without saying and it is implied in our dialog,


Recognition, love, peacefulness of the inner soul as a sought after blessing
In a state so got to act towards rest of creation with understanding so gained
Now the only point of debate is what comes first.  


Can one do 2 and achieve 1?
Can one first achieve 1 and then do 2?
I believe this is where how we are, how varied we are, and how we are so created provides the beauty.  God and creator without question seeks and carries out diversity within one base.  That is the game that creator has control over and so plays.

I believe both are equally valid approaches.  However, one's enlightenment is of no consequence if it results in no consonance with rest of creation.  Similarly consonance with internal misery is also not healthy and will sooner or later eat away at your core that overcomes your inner dis-satisfaction while you outwardly satisfy.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (May 30, 2012)

> And people shouldn't get angry or upset at you for your views. they need to look long and hard at themselves for why EGO, and ANGER are running their behaviour.


 
You would be surprised how angry some people get when you point out that all the Matha Tekking, naam japping, recitations, ardasses in the world will not help them unless their heart is truly in it, I believe yours is, so our argument is moot


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## Harry Haller (May 30, 2012)

> Recognition, love, peacefulness of the inner soul as a sought after blessing
> In a state so got to act towards rest of creation with understanding so gained
> Now the only point of debate is what comes first.
> 
> ...



Very wise words Veerji, I think some wait until they feel that state completely, and then bring it into consonance, knowing they can do no wrong, personally speaking, I tend to get an idea of the state, without complete grasping and then bring it into consonance, resulting in invariable mistakes and quick learning, I feel this practical evaluation hones you better than waiting until you feel you know what needs to be known and acting accordingly but wasting the time you spend learning


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Taranjeet Singh ji, Harry Haller ji and Chazsingh ji thanks for your post. Great discourse.
> 
> I see that at times we are looking at two sides of the same coin. I believe the following goes without saying and it is implied in our dialog,
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely both can be done at the same time 

Guru Ji says give your dasvand in Seva and Charity towards creation.
I believe this dasvand is also for Simran. This equotes to 2.5 hours a day doing simran out of 24. The rest is spent with creation in Maya. So if Simran helps clear the dirt out of our minds, and raises our consciousness to higher levels, then surely the remaining several ours in Maya will be better spent and Seva will be more pure? 

The two go hand in hand. But i think we must understand that through countless lifetimes in Maya, we have gotton so attached to Maya that we are extremely attached to it now.
God had already installed the Shabad Guru (inside of all of us) - the anhad shabad that our consciosness can grasp onto when this attachement becomes tooo much to pull us out of this attachment to maya and make us realise who we really are again.

An example of this is as i used on another forum.
Imagine being lost in a crowded city, aimlessly wondering around trying to find your way. Getting frustrated, losing faith, having doubts over your destination. You cant even think clearly because there is so much noise in the city (mind)

Then you're told that there is a guiding sound/shabad/vibration (anhad shabad) that will guide you the correct way....but that you need to learn to listen to it...to be able to pick it up and detect it.

So in the middle of the crowded city, you close your eyes, you try to silence all the noise from the city trying to pick up this sound/shabad/celestial music.

It takes you a while but you dont give up...then after the effort, you pick up this celestial music/shabad, you focus on it and follow where it is taking you.....to your destination where you are pulled out of the attachment to maya and you realise who you are.

Sounds like something out of a phantasy story...but i know from my experiences that this all exists, and that we need to spend time doing this whilst still functioning in Maya


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## Ambarsaria (May 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Very wise words Veerji, I think some wait until they feel that state completely, and then bring it into consonance, knowing they can do no wrong, personally speaking, I tend to get an idea of the state, without complete grasping and then bring it into consonance, resulting in invariable mistakes and quick learning, I feel this practical evaluation hones you better than waiting until you feel you know what needs to be known and acting accordingly but wasting the time you spend learning


Veer Harry Haller ji thanks.

Just a thought occurred.  Isn't there something labelled as Alpha males (here we are having dialog between guys) and may be we are so acting?  One's accepting (say non Alpha and the inner first) then acting while others take charge (Alpha) or do then go inside?  They remain both males though 

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (May 30, 2012)

chazsingh ji thanks for your post.  I agree with most except the following,


chazSingh said:


> ..........  The two go hand in hand. _But i think we must understand that through countless lifetimes in Maya, we have gotton so attached to Maya_ that we are extremely attached to it now........


If at all you mean or imply this to be a physical or otherwise complete re-incarnation or endless transmigration.  I believe none exists and no one is unique in nature they are just different.  We do live with parts of others around us and those before us and others will live with parts of us when we leave and become ashes.  This is the only continuation I can relate to.  This continues to happen regardless of you being good, bad or ugly and doing simran.  This is creator's ways and being in extreme consonance, being very good or very bad may or may not have any consequence.  This may not determine how creator, or creation on behalf of the creator, decides to dispose of us.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> chazsingh ji thanks for your post. I agree with most except the following,
> If at all you mean or imply this to be a physical or otherwise complete re-incarnation or endless transmigration. I believe none exists and no one is unique in nature they are just different. We do live with parts of others around us and those before us and others will live with parts of us when we leave and become ashes. This is the only continuation I can relate to. This continues to happen regardless of you being good, bad or ugly and doing simran. This is creator's ways and being in extreme consonance, being very good or very bad may or may not have any consequence. This may not determine how creator, or creation on behalf of the creator, decides to dispose of us.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Satnaam Ji,

The time for 'I believe' or 'I think' is passing. We can ponder over all the ingredients to a science experiment 'thinking' if something will happen or we can be a part of the experiment and actually do it and record the results.

When Yogi Bhajan went to america, one of the first things he said was "i'm not here to collect students", "i'm here to find teachers"

One person 'experiences' the truth and then uplifts others to experience the truth, who then uplift others also....and the love just keeps on expanding.

janam janam k*aa* s*o*e*i**aa* j*aa*g*ai* ||
_Asleep for countless lifetimes, I have awakened_
_Guru Arjan Dev Ji Raag Maaroo 1080_ 

If you follow the steps in SGGS Ji, the 'i think' or 'i believe' will dissapear, and you will *'KNOW'*

and then:

n*aa*nak r*aa*m m*i*l*ae* bhram dh*oo*r*ae* ||4||11||
_O Nanak, they merge into the Lord, and their doubts are cast away. ||4||11||_


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## Archived_Member16 (May 30, 2012)

*Spiritual Experiences *

http://youtu.be/ydbyiPgQ3zg​


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## chazSingh (May 31, 2012)

Soul_jyot said:


> *Spiritual Experiences *​
> 
> 
> http://youtu.be/ydbyiPgQ3zg​


 
Very good video, i came across this in the past when i also started to have experiences and then wondered why they weren't happening all the time.

This is the most valuable bit of advice someone can be given when doing regular simran. my purpose for simran is to return back to my true self...this isnt an expectation...or a prayer or a demand to god...

My Simran last week was truly blissful...this week it has been tough, mind has been wondering. but this is all part of the journey and one thing i've learnt as described in the video is to never expect any experiences...it'll lead to dissapointment and no two experiences will be the same...I can vouch for that 

If i was to sit outside my house for 2.5 hours everyday...each day would be a different experience.... i may get some rain, other days snow, maybe heavy wind....then some sun. Temp could be 32 degrees one day, 27 the next day. A bus might drive past and spalsh water on me, A dog may come and have a poo on me 

Every day is different. Since i started this thread i have not actually spoken about the spiritual experiences, but i feel it is good to discuss the difficulties in sitting for Simran, difficulties with the mind during simran, things that happen which can be strange - like sudden jolts in the body, quick sudden movement of arm or legs, twitches....a beginner may be worried about it, but you start to understand that it's just the energy moving around you during simran - its trying to balance and open up the chakra's (also refered to as the seven seas (sat Sarovar) in gurbani. Its the amrit cleaning you up.

Just be open to anything when you do Simran. Relax and let things be. feel one with yourself and everything around you.

God bless all.


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## chazSingh (May 31, 2012)

*Bad dreams after Simran Sessions*

Sometimes if i missed several days of simran, or just on random days (during daily simran) i would tend to have some scary or bad dreams.

Yogi Bhajan used to say that he never ever dreamt anything, that his subconscious mind was so clear that there was nothing to dream about. he had no fears, worries, or anger towards anyone. So why was i having these dreams.

The 5 thieves live inside our minds, deep in our subconscious, they appear as thoughts in our minds dependant on what situation we are in. They want to have control over you. When they realise that you are starting to do Simran, they realise that you are becoming aware of god...so sometimes after Simran you will have an uncomfortable dream - don't be worried about these, this is just the 5 doots not wanting to let go.
Other than a few times when this happens, most times Simran will give you nice relaxed sleep.

And when we are blessed with extra long sessions of Deep Smadhi Simran during amrit vela, the Simran/mediation itself will rejuvinate your body better than sleep itself so you will come out of 2.5 hours of mediation feeling like you've had 8 hours of sleep.

God bless all.


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## Archived_Member16 (May 31, 2012)

*Spiritual Experience of Naam Simran*

Tarlochan Singh Mann*

*3 New York Avenue, Stonybrook. N.Y. 11790. U.S.A. This is based on Bandgi-nama by Raghbir Singh Bir.

Recitation of Gurbani and meditation or Simran are complementary to each other. While Gurbani brings us closer to an understanding of God’s purpose, Simran truly unites us with the divine. Recitation from Guru Granth and repetition of a particular verse roots its sense in our mind in order that the mind is moulded accordingly. Naam - Simran increases concentration and raises levels of consciousness to higher level and unites us with the wonderful Lord, Waheguru.

*Philosophy of Simran:* As soon as the name of any object is mentioned, its form, nature, attributes, and our re-action to it, rush into our mind, and we visualize the image of the object as picturised and projected. Similarly when we repeat God’s Name our mental picture of God gets picturised before our mind’s eyes. Gur-Bani by projecting the attributes of God helps us to form some sort of mental picture of God. In Simran when we repeat God’s Name this picture grows clearer to us.

Even if we may have no mental concept of God, by mere repetition of His NAME God’s attributes are not only visualized but are also slowly assimilated. Naam-Simran is the secret of simple mindsbecoming Saints.

Peculiar quality of our mind is that if some thing impresses us profoundly and if we repeatedly aspire, by continuous Simran, to be shaped in the pattern of that thing (may be saint, God), we are gradually moulded accordingly:

Jaisa sevai taisa hovei. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

*Methodology of Simran:* Significance and worth of Naam-Simran can be appreciated only by personally practicing Simran persistently, regularly, with patience and perseverance till it becomes a habit, and goes an unceasingly.

*Recommendations for beginners:* Choice of a secluded and fixed place and regular hours help in inculcating Simran habit. A special room, or a niche in a room, reserved for Simran is very conducive. Time - prescribed is 2.00 A.M. to 4.00 A.M. in Summer and 3.00 to 5.00 A.M. in winter. We can sleep for two hours after Simran before our daily work.
*
Body Pasture *- We should squat cross-legged on the floor as erect as possible. The avoid fatigue a cushion may be used.

*Tuning the mind* - It is necessary to guard it from wandering and falling into negative thinking and making the entire Naam-Simran exercise of the day a futile venture Modus-operandi for tuning the mind recommended by the author may be followed or each individual should evolve and adopt his own personalized technique.

*Three Stages of Simran:* The author describes how and why he selected "Wahe-Guru" for Simran in preference to so many other names of God mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The first stage of Simran is audible Simran. Lips more and sound is heard. We speak aloud and fix our attention on the sound produced. It is necessary to improve our concentration. If necessary beads of rosary may be used, to start with, but in no case pictures of Gurus be used to improve concentration, as it creates problems in higher spiritual stages as illustrated by our own experiences. The second stage is of mental Simran. When lips cease to move, vocal chords alone help in creating sound rhythm of Wahe-Guru Shabad. For convenience the seeker may synchronize the Simran with the rhythm of breathing, regulating the vibrations of respiration. Uttering Wah on inhaling, and uttering "Guru" on exhaling. This mental Simran focuses our attention and increase our concentration which advances spiritual development. The third stage - The Gentle sound of mental Simran picks up a higher pitch and becomes louder and louder to the exclusion of all external sounds. Mental Simran ceases and this sound seems to come down from navel and is heard from within our entire being. This concentrated Simran raises the level of consciousness and the spiritual development advances to the higher stage. The mind feels perfect peace and gets inebriated with the joy of bliss that defy description. This advanced stage of spiritual development is called stage of ‘SAHAJ’. From this last stage of Simran first stage of "GYAN’ starts and the seeker starts having a number of mystic experiences. But the seeker has to guard against the delusions of this stage viz (1) Ceasing of Simran gives the impression that it is waste of time as there is no worship of God without Simran (2) The seeker is gripped by the sleep of ease called ‘TANDRA’ and seeker is deluded to believe that he has reached the final stage of spiritual progress. This writer follows in details the methodology suggested by Late Sant Attar Singh Mastuana and Baba Nand Singh Kleran helped him to come out of first delusion regarding waste of time. Edward Carpenter’s book ‘A Visit to a Gyani’ redeemed him from the delusion of ‘TANDRA’.

The other mystic experiences this writer had are -

l Discovery of centers of consciousness within the body including cortex of the brain called ‘DASAM DWAR’.

l Seeing glimpses of sweet cool luminosity.

l Hearing melodious sounds: punch nad or Anhad nad.

l Experiencing sweet smells.

l Low gentle rhythmic sound in the brain inducing bliss and lightness of mind.

l Getting into peaceful trance/Samadhi.

l The realization that the universe is the creation of an all-pervading force beyond our comprehension.

*source:* http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/reiki_transcendental/SikhReview/july2000/naam.htm


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## Ambarsaria (May 31, 2012)

Chazsingh ji I am losing track of what you are postulating here.





chazSingh said:


> *Bad dreams after Simran Sessions*
> 
> Sometimes if i missed several days of simran, or just on random days (during daily simran) i would tend to have some scary or bad dreams.
> 
> ...


_Can you please perhaps help and clarify specifics as,
_

_Are you repeating words, lines or parts of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and please share exact unless you are doing all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from start to finish or any other way!_
_How you plan to read or relate to rest of Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji aside from your Simran?
_
 
_If Simran is supposedly creating freedom why are you at the same time identifying dependencies and almost show manifestations of fear in bad dreams, etc., when you miss Simran?_
_Did you have difficulties sleeping before that the current plan helps you with and what was your 8 hours of sleep like without Simran and do you do any physical work or exercise in normal living?_
_Reason is that a laborer carrying bricks all day will use a brick as a pillow and sleep without all this modern world mind bender perturbations!_
_Why would what you achieve with what you do any different from a laborer of pious and simple mind tiring through labor and toil?_
 
I am sorry I will not comment on Yogi Bhajan stuff as he is not here to defend himself and there is no question many people felt or got lot of good through his teachings.  I personally would not have found much use for his teachings as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is pretty simple to understand if you approach it with love.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 1, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Chazsingh ji I am losing track of what you are postulating here._Can you please perhaps help and clarify specifics as,_
> 
> 
> _Are you repeating words, lines or parts of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and please share exact unless you are doing all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from start to finish or any other way!_
> ...


 
Ambarsaria ji, I understand your point and comment.
It's a very good point indeed. 
I can say from my own personal self that the simran can help one to relax and focus more so on the message. I say 'help', meaning someone may get the message without it.

I have lived life in the fast lane for too long. To be doing something like simran to help me calm down and think has itself worked.
Then again, if I had done something else physically relaxing, i'm still sure that would have helped.
The meditation and simran is a very _physical_ thing at first that does help you relax and then to get in touch with your true innerself and the creator within you, only then does it become _spiritual._ I can vouch for this and say that it has helped me here. But it doesn't mean it's the only way. But with my lifestyle, it seemed the only way, as I never had any space for spirituality.
Your point about learning the gurbani and messages from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib  by approaching it with 'love' is very valid.- This 'love' is very important.

I can only speak for myself here- Sadly, I'm not sure if I could have approached it with love before as my life was very much in the fast lane, 24/7.
I really needed to break away in some manner and only then could I achieve the 'love' to approach the gurbani. So, in my case the physical meditation and simran helped me with this and now I can read shabads with much more love and understanding that i can't remember having before.
So, if one can approach gurbani with 'true love' without having to find yourself by relaxing and meditation, then very good. Unfortunately, I couldn't and I needed it to gear me up.

I hope that makes you understand it a little better.

Besides the well being and experiences you encounter whilst doing simran, I can say that it has definitely helped me conquer the 5 vices much better than before even though I never intended. It just happened and is happening all the while.  
For a while, I actually felt that my whole personality was changing as I couldn't quite understand why I had done such things in the past. (simple things like sacrificed my health just to earn more money). -Then later I realised that I had simply began to conquer desires, attachments and ego etc...   
So, I can say and feel that it has definitely put me more in touch with the creator within me.

What Yogi Bhajan says about not dreaming, Chaz ji has mentioned a couple of times before. I do recall reading or seeing a video where he stated this, BUT I never actually bought it all then or now because scientifically we ALL dream. We cannot always remember what we dream, but our mind is dreaming all the while, it is active when we are asleep.
In a night most of us will have several dreams but we wake up and can only recall 1-2, and some of us cannot recall any. 
I don't want to talk too much about this here as it will go off topic, but if someone says they don't dream- then they are in fact saying that they don't remember dreaming- Bottom line.

You are correct when you point out if the focus should be just be on  1)simran/meditation or (2) to be reading and studying the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and contemplating the creator.

Well, the focus should be on Both. 
It's just that for many of us it helps to do 1 and then 2, but that doesn't mean that someone can't do 2 without 1.
For me, I needed to do 1, and now find it beneficial doing 1 and 2. 
In this same manner if I were to be teaching a novice, I would just like Yogi Bhajan recommend that they first try 1 and then 2 and then both. My valid reason would be my self experience. Just as a student learning physics would be recommended 1-2 text books due to the teachers self experience, in the same way I would recommend meditation as an aid.
Remembering this, that there would be a few students that wouldn't need to read the physics book in  great depths compared to others as they may grasp the theories and concepts first hand without the need for reports and experiments.- A few students can do this quite well.

I have not encountered any nightmares or negatives as such, but I think this is more to do with physiological and biological functioning as well as inner fears that you may not be aware of. 

It is nothing to do with the fact that you didn't say waheguru the night before or such. GOD LOVES YOU, HE DOES NOT PUNISH AND CAUSE HARM AND SUFFERING if you are too busy to say waheguru. 
So Chazji, I don't think your nightmares are related in this sense, but then again anything, I mean absolutely anything that you _think or feel _happens and it helps bring out the good in you (which is simran in this case), then that is a personal benefit and _good thing_. There is nothing wrong if you actually feel this way and it helps you to jap more naam.
So even if eating unhealthy cakes, helps one to jap more naam, then so be it- carry on.

We are all different and no matter what the approach, as long as we understand and feel the ultimate love for the ultimate almighty, is what really matters every living day until our death.

I try to avoid reading about spiritual experiences of simran and meditation, as this way I actually feel it more personal and it stops me looking or expecting for things to happen. 
It has been more than amazing at times with feelings of immense love for God Almighty that I can't really explain, but the biggest factor is that it has definitely helped me to become a better overall person. I actually feel and know what my purpose for life is and what I should be doing.

I know just how much of my life I have wasted chasing the rainbows. But it is ALL about learning and experiencing.

_ Only through experiencing do we truly learn._

In my case experiencing fast lane life and then giving it all up with the help of the lord through simran and learning from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, I feel I have learnt, only upto now though, As I have the rest of my life to learn even more, we carry on learning every day.- One can never know it all.
Tomorrow I will know a little more than today and tomorrow I hope to have more immense love for creator and creation than today.
As Sikhs, we have the perfect name for learners.

Learning the truth is never ending,as I said, I or anyone will NEVER know it all.
We should try to learn more and more each day until the very last day.
The simran is a nice tool for me that can help me learn and love much more.
Today there is more immense love for creator and creation than yesterday and tomorrow there will be more than today. This is how I want the rest of my life to carry on. This is from what I know now, at this moment, as tomorrow I may feel and know different and want my life another way.


Waheguru


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 1, 2012)

> _"Continuously or Always Aware". It is a very fundamental teaching and guidance._
> 
> _What are examples of continuously aware,_
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Ji

The examples in your post are nice. We begin the path to freedom from the worldly experience chase when we begin to recognise God in all things... 

When this happens, a beautiful balance of energies occurs- All is Him- in the good and the bad, in the laughs and the cries, pleasure and pain. The Awe begins to extend to the hells and the heavens and beyond.

When we can truly recognise our Beloved in our haters and lovers, in our negative and positive karams- that is when the True Awe begins- when the true contemplation begins.. The unconditional love that we begin to experience lifts us to a feeling so blissful that mortals cannot comprehend it. It is a frequency beyond- it is Truly Divine....

We become fearless in recognising and accepting him in all karams, regardless of the image and how controversial the scenario- and All loving in Loving all of him- not just one part of him(sukh). 

We can live a life full of happy karams, of laughter, birds and bees- but then what would we truly learn? How could we feel the equal(for both is Him) dukhi that leads us to give ourselves up to him completely with every fibre of our being- with the realisation that we can do Nothing?

He is our lover and our saviour- he saves us from the ******** and the illusion of happiness(whilst still carrying around the weight of pain) that the mortals endure- and gives us the most blissful, intoxicating gift that we never saw coming and could never have even dreamt of. 

To do this truly, we simply see Him as both- the image is false- it's just Him in His state of all Pervading Frequency of Nothingness.

To do this requires discipline- maya will keep on deluding and instigating us to rise to slander, arguments, even violence. We must try and remain in the knowledge of His Truth throughout, and not react in maya(5 thieves). 

To keep going further, we must pass such tests that it becomes impossible to Not be out of True Love(true enjoyment).. Our hirdas blossom and we realise that it is All Love- we keep moving forward because we love Him.

Hence the reason our beloved Gurus were able to Embrace Martyrdom-Their Love was True.


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 1, 2012)

*Satnaam Chaz Ji*

One of the first things i started realising on this path is that the Ego should be held to one side as much as possible. That we should never think that we are the doer, or that our efforts are providing the experiences.

*Beautiful, when we hold this stance, the evolution can occur naturally and it becomes easy to recognise His line of communication....*

EVERYTHING is him, we are just the spectator. Even the thoughts or the motivation to sit and meditate or do Seva is his Grace, his Will that is doing everything.

I for one, don;t care where i am spiritually, or what realms i traverse through. As of yet i haven't felt scared or un-comfortable with what i've experienced and that I hope is the love for Guru Ji that always protects me. Always keep hold of the sounds and vibration of Waheguru and Satnaam, they'll keep you moving in the right path and safely.

*Great, living in Truth is living in Hukam- We learn what He wants us to learn as He wants us to learn it- All on His terms*

*Going further, we apply the gyan continuously that it's All Him- accepting the hukam fearlessly and lovingly- not reacting in maya(the theives).*

My biggest blockage was to accept and believe that God is within me, and that i don't need to go anywhere but to understand that all can be experiences within. Once i got over that blockage i started to understand that God is one with me at all times and it is He that is meditating with me  This will open you up to all that is Him. 

*Yep, He's with us, All around us- where is He not? He never left us..*


Everything is is Gurbani, both the technology and info of the spiritual path.

*Living Gurbani is what the bhagat does- The Gyan is the Guru and the Guru is the Gyan.*

God bless you all on your journey.

*God bless you too*


[/QUOTE]


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 1, 2012)

> _Only through experiencing do we truly learn._
> 
> In my case experiencing fast lane life and then giving it all up with the help of the lord through simran and learning from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, I feel I have learnt, only upto now though, As I have the rest of my life to learn even more, we carry on learning every day.- One can never know it all.
> 
> ...


[/quote]

It's true that everyone in maya is experiencing God- for He is All. We understand though, that the first line of Gurbani specifies that His name is Sat(Truth). And hence- we focus on discovering the Truth.

This earth is a test world- our deeds- good and bad are counted- the game of Karam is perfect. Life is simply a game to discover Truth- it is the reason we are here. Yes we can marry maya for a while according to His will due to our past deeds- but we are here now- every single person who visits this forum has been given an oppertunity to join the path. 

Knowing now that life is a game to discover Truth, getting caught up in wordly pleasures(attachment/greed/ego etc.) would be foolish. One may argue that if we do not experience all worldly things- we will not learn. The fact is that when in Truth- we are experiencing/embracing the whole- both experiences of Dukh and Sukh- hence fragments are of no value. This gyan is beyond logic- it must be experienced.

When we're in Truth- we are opting out of the khel. When we stop living sukh- the dukh we are fed lessens- for we are fed an equal amount of both.

We start to detach from the worldly experience chase when we begin to live in Truth- from that point- we begn to actually delete our negative karams instead of creating more by continuing to embrace wordly(false) sukh (hence creating more dukh).

We continue to keep paying off our karams while living in Truth until one day- we Become free of the game= Jivan Mukht.

On this path, we have zero desires(we are Nothing/ there is Nothing afterall so what is there to desire in Truth?) and zero conditions. This is unconditional Love. Even if He decides to make us fall- we accept the karam, get up and keep moving. Even if He decides to free us after 100 more janams or 2 million more- we accept. Even after we reach the unshakable state of Atal Awasth- the journey does not end- it is Infinite like Him.

Satnaam Ji


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 2, 2012)

*
Satnaam Ji *

in Sikhi: ]Guru is the bani (shabad/word) and bani (shabad/word) is the guru
in christianity: in the beginning was the Word (shabad), the word was with god...the word WAS GOD

*It's crazy how Truth principles still remain(although many religions have been very corrupted by scholars who twist Brahmgyanis words) in different faiths- showing the Truth to be One, yet people still like to segregate themselves in Ego.*

In our reality exists the outer world, and the inner world (within our own body)

*When the bhagat reaches a certain point of realisation they understand that the outer world is the same as the inner world- We Are the Entire Creation- the journey is within- and we go deeper when we embrace this fact(Nirboah and Nirvair)- for we are able to let the universe be without resentment- and there is Silence*

on the inside exists the Anhad Shabad (unstruck sound current/Shabad/the word)
on the outside exists the Sound current/shabad/word in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

While we cannot at first hear the inner sound current. We can start to meditate on the outer word/shabad/gurbani. This will eventually tune your consciousness into being able to hear the inner sound current.

*The inner sound is the same as the outer. Naam is Truth- it is a Frequency of a Balanced Gyan that applies across a universal spectrum(All pervading) that lives to discover while remaining detached from the nasha of the discovery(highs and lows- to remain in the balance i.e Truth i.e the Frequency of God).

 Anhad naad is symbolic reflection of this Truth/silence- In the Truth even sound doesn't exist. Eventually the Naad quietens down to Nothing. *


There are two stages if your thirst, hunger and Love exists to experience god...only then do you get the gurpursaad.

1st stage
najar bhee ghar ghar thae jaaniaa ||2||
As the inner vision is awakened, one comes to know one's own home, deep within the self. ||2||Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Raag Gauree , 153 

The inner vision is the Hukam. Once we open our minds and hearts to learn as and how he wills it- not according to our own expectations and requirements- we actually begin to See and Recognise the tests he's giving us and the lessons he's teaching us- to recognise His line of communication. He teaches us gyan from within..



I am 32 years old, _was a disgusting shameless sinner_

*Join the club- we are all sinners and traitors in one way or another- But one of His virtues is that He is all loving beyond measure(Nirviar and Nirboah). So don't ever dwell on the past- the past is the past and the future is out of sight- Only this precious moment matters.. You just do your best not to make the same mistakes again*

...i still Sin,

*It's important that as Bhagats- we don't drink or smoke(causes spiritual weakness, enhances vices) and we keep the vices in check with simple simple Truth application*

but the thirst for Guru Ji was welling up so much i was going to explode, and Guru Ji has awakened this inner vision. I now am Shown this inner vision every day when i meditate and do Simran. I say that i am shown, because i don't actually do anything...its all guru ji...i'm just the spectator. The visions are beautiful...sometimes you can feel the true amrit inside cleaning you up 

*A really important thing on this path is not to get attached to imagery- the Jivan Mukht does not need symbolic reflection to aid their discoveries- when we focus on the Truth of the Nothingness(For that is the Truth from where we all originate) anything else happens naturally*

2nd Stage:


When you mediate on the word, the shabad, the gurbani. Sounds/vibrations of Satnaam and Waheguru...your consciosness is being lifted very gradually to prepare you for hearing the inner Word/Shabad. 

_gur kee baanee naam vajaaeae ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Bani, the Naam resounds; Raag Aasaa 
362 _

At the moment during my meditation/Simran i have not come across the inner Anhad shabad. but it WILL happen when the time is right and when i am ready for it. 

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38569
_
By His Grace, you listen to the sound current of the Naad
Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Raag Gauree, 270 _

At first it will sound like drums and various instruments that we are already accustomed to:
*
It can be different for different people*

*God Bless you*


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## chazSingh (Jun 3, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Chazsingh ji I am losing track of what you are postulating here._Can you please perhaps help and clarify specifics as,_
> 
> 
> _Are you repeating words, lines or parts of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and please share exact unless you are doing all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from start to finish or any other way!_
> ...


 
God bless you and all the Sangat


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## chazSingh (Jun 3, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Learning the truth is never ending,as I said, I or anyone will NEVER know it all.
> We should try to learn more and more each day until the very last day.
> The simran is a nice tool for me that can help me learn and love much more.
> Today there is more immense love for creator and creation than yesterday and tomorrow there will be more than today. This is how I want the rest of my life to carry on. This is from what I know now, at this moment, as tomorrow I may feel and know different and want my life another way.
> ...


 
Thanks for the post LuckyJi, exactly why i wanted to set up this thread, full of useful insight, how simran has helped you, difficulties etc etc.
Actual experience and practical feedback from you. 


With regards to Yogi Bhajan Ji and dreams. I personally think he was BrahmGiani - he never said this, no true brahmgiani does.

ma(n)n*ae* k*ee* gath keh*ee* n j*aa*e ||
_The state of the faithful cannot be described._

The state of their awareness, mind and being,  i'm guessing will be way beyond the rest of us. So maybe he doesn't dream and is aware of everything whilst in sleep?

This is something maybe we'll all be able to answer as Guru Ji keeps us progressing on this path.

God bless you and the sangat.


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## chazSingh (Jun 3, 2012)

TruthSatnaam said:


> *Satnaam Chaz Ji*
> 
> One of the first things i started realising on this path is that the Ego should be held to one side as much as possible. That we should never think that we are the doer, or that our efforts are providing the experiences.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Thank you Ji for all the useful information. all your posts have been very infomative for any idividuals that guru ji is inspiring to move a long this path.

God bless the sangat


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## chazSingh (Jun 3, 2012)

TruthSatnaam said:


> *When the bhagat reaches a certain point of realisation they understand that the outer world is the same as the inner world- We Are the Entire Creation- the journey is within- and we go deeper when we embrace this fact(Nirboah and Nirvair)- for we are able to let the universe be without resentment- and there is Silence*
> 
> *Yup, i've even heard the outer world is a projection from the inner self. That we create our reality from within. Something very useful maybe for the ones taking this inner journey. *
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Ji. God bless you and everyone.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 4, 2012)

_Thanks for the post LuckyJi, exactly why i wanted to set up this thread, full of useful insight, how simran has helped you, difficulties etc etc._
_Actual experience and practical feedback from you._

I have explained how in my case simran and meditation has helped me achieve something that I had no idea I would achieve.
What I'm trying to say here is when people start and take on a new task, they expect some results or set a target to achieve.
I, on the other hand just needed to meditate in order to break away from my fast and busy lifestyle. But I had not set any goals as to become more spiritual or having more love for the Lord. It was definitely a more physical approach to try and relax my body and mind. I had tried many other forms of relaxation, but found that I would still always be timing myself and my mind would be on other things.

As I got into it slowly, I found that I was getting better at doing it and it was definitely invigorating my mind as well. This somehow seemed to take all the concerns and worries that may have been on my mind.
Not long after I started feeling this immense love for creation and creator. I realised that I'm just a small dot in the universe, yet we all feel that we have all the worries in the world!! 
All these feelings that we have come from our mind. In a sense they are all self inflicted. I soon felt, that any one of us can easily rise above all this if we try and so eradicate these feelings and fears.

In fact, this is how I feel know. The simran has helped shape me into a better individual. I am much more calm that it seems unbelievable at times. Sometimes I actually feel there might be something wrong with me since I don't feel any of the worries or fears that others around me will be experiencing. So, I can in fact say that the simran has changed my charachter and bought out the best in me.

I do wish that I had felt like this much long ago, as then I wouldn't have made the mistakes that I did. 
The other thing that has resulted from simran and meditation is my inreased spirituality.
This again is not something that I went out looking for, but it has automatically got much stronger.

I also feel in better harmony with all of the creation around me. It is such that I feel very appreciative and thankful for the simple natural things around me. 

As to actual experiences during simran, these can be very varied. They can range from seeing colours and shapes to hearing the word vibrating within every bone of your body. It seems that all your senses seem to wake up giving sensations of sound, feelings of hot and cold, pleasant tastes and smells.

As to problems, I don't encounter any at all. Maybe because I don't expect or hope for anything. 
I do feel much more anand when I read and recite the Japji sahib such that I find the shabads from the paath carry on in my conscience throughout the rest of the day and even whilst I am sleeping.
It does strenghten my spirituality a great deal and makes me much more closer to the God within and around me.


Waheguru


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 4, 2012)

Luckysingh ji thanks for your post.  I am much impressed with your descriptions and experiences.





Luckysingh said:


> I do feel much more anand when I read and recite the Japji sahib such that I find the shabads from the paath carry on in my consciousness throughout the rest of the day and even whilst I am sleeping.
> It does strenghten my spirituality a great deal and makes me much more closer to the God within and around me.Waheguru


_Perhaps unfortunately, I am not into Simran practice at the moment.  What I do want to share is something different.

When I try to attempt translations of Gurbani in SGGS, I get a feeling that I am seated in front of Guru ji or say Baba Farid ji.  So the words are not just something that you read on a screen and apply grammar or other rules to.  It actually at some time was so verbally announced to the lucky one's by Guru ji's and others.  In this state of mind the words unfold quite differently versus how one would just read things.  I believe if one can link to associations through Gurbani in SGGS, it may enhance and enrich our experiences with SGGS.

_Any way some thoughts or craziness.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (Jun 4, 2012)

I once saw a very wise Gyani doing katha and one thing he said in particular has always stuck with me. We would never treat our grandfather the way we treat Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If we were to sit our grandfather in a corner and tell him, "Please sit in the corner and be quiet. We won't listen to what you are telling us but we will dress you in nice clothes, pay our respects and continually repeat your name. That is enough respect but we won't listen to you at all." Grandfather ji would understandably be extremely angry and upset at such treatment but this is exactly how we treat Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There should be more effort and time spent on understanding and implementation imho. Otherwise all the simran in the world is useless. When I see the same people who do simran for hours on end being rude to other people or fighting in Gurdwaras it greatly saddens me as the message of Gurbani has been lost to simran.


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> I once saw a very wise Gyani doing katha and one thing he said in particular has always stuck with me. We would never treat our grandfather the way we treat Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If we were to sit our grandfather in a corner and tell him, "Please sit in the corner and be quiet. We won't listen to what you are telling us but we will dress you in nice clothes, pay our respects and continually repeat your name. That is enough respect but we won't listen to you at all." Grandfather ji would understandably be extremely angry and upset at such treatment but this is exactly how we treat Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There should be more effort and time spent on understanding and implementation imho. Otherwise all the simran in the world is useless. When I see the same people who do simran for hours on end being rude to other people or fighting in Gurdwaras it greatly saddens me as the message of Gurbani has been lost to simran.


 

Satnaam FindMyWay Ji,

I imagine there are many that agree, myself also that people go to the gurdwara, carry our akhand paats and other events in a ritualistic manner i.e. dont even sit, listen, comprehend the gurbani, so yes they are showing un-believable amounts of disrespect by doing so,

But, i think you have contradicted yourself a little about Simran. If someone is doing Simran with Complete love and Devotion in order to 'REALISE THEIR TRUE SELVES' i.e. god particles - satnaam then they are following gurbani to the core. TRUE simran goes hand in hand with Seva in your daily life and also sharing with others.

repeating a mantra like a parrot, whilst the mind wanders around, without any feeling of love for your Guru is 100% useless. But that is not the Simran that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has taught me or is trying to teach you.

Simran Meditation is mentioned in sooo many pages of Gurbani. 
you have quoted* "There should be more effort and time spent on understanding and implementation"*
So then please listen to your Guru Ji when he tells you to do Simran. Try one method, see how it works, try another, experiement but lets make the effort, and then come back and let the sangat know how you are getting on.

*"When I see the same people who do simran for hours on end being rude to other people or fighting in Gurdwaras"*
This is their journey to control their 5 thieves. Simran will not get rid of your 5 thieves overnight, it takes time, effort, discipline, love and complete devotion and surrender to Guru Ji. 
Your inner Guru, knows your character completely, so when you do Simran, your internal guru knows how much anger, lust, greed, attachement and ego you have....and in your daily life he will confront you with your evil character i.e. the fights in the streets, the family problems etc etc. to see how you re-act, and for youself to understand the bad aspects of your character.

I can only talk to you about my own experience with Simran.

For me, When i do Simran, i come face to face with my 5 thieves. In deep contemplation of God (without any interuption of the outside world, i can hear my crazy thoughts, i can see the images my mind throws in front of me of Women, Sex, Money, Greed, Ego. The Simran works with your internal Amrit to start to clean your subconscious mind which contains the 5 thieves.

You then go back into society for the rest of your day, go to work, spend time with Friends and family and then you see how much of a difference Simran has made. God throws tests at you all the time to see if you can forgive someone, to see if you can love a family member who slanders you behind you back, if you can love your enemy etc etc.

I still make mistakes at the hands of the 5 thieves, but bit by bit, day by day as the Simran works its wonders, you start noticing the changes.

And the more the 5 thieves are put to one side, the more the light of god starts to shine through....that i can vouch for...he gives you his proof for the efforts you are making.

God bless you and the Sangat on your journey back to Waheguru.


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> I once saw a very wise Gyani doing katha and one thing he said in particular has always stuck with me. We would never treat our grandfather the way we treat Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If we were to sit our grandfather in a corner and tell him, "Please sit in the corner and be quiet. We won't listen to what you are telling us but we will dress you in nice clothes, pay our respects and continually repeat your name. That is enough respect but we won't listen to you at all." Grandfather ji would understandably be extremely angry and upset at such treatment but this is exactly how we treat Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There should be more effort and time spent on understanding and implementation imho. Otherwise all the simran in the world is useless. When I see the same people who do simran for hours on end being rude to other people or fighting in Gurdwaras it greatly saddens me as the message of Gurbani has been lost to simran.


 
Satnaam Ji,

a handful of examples out of hundreds concerning Simran, Remberance, Meditation in gurbani

*In the beginning we were with god, he put us into his creation, and in-case we get sooo attached to his creation, he provided a method by which we can 'Remember' Him again, and find our way back home...to our TRUE SELVES. God bless you. Please enjoy the beautiful gurbabi below:*

j*i*s s*i*marath s*u*kh h*o*e ghan*aa* dh*u*kh dharadh n m*oo*l*ae* h*o*e ||
_Remembering Him in meditation, a profound peace is obtained. Pain and suffering will not touch you at all._

j*aa* n*aa*o ch*ae*th*ai* th*aa* gath p*aa*e*ae* j*aa* sath*i*g*u*r m*ae*l m*i*l*aa*e*ae* ||6||
_But when they remember the Name, then they attain the state of salvation, when the True Guru unites them in Union. ||6||_

s*i*marath s*aa*s g*i*r*aa*s p*oo*ran b*i*s*u**aa*s k*i*o manah*u* b*i*s*aa*r*ee**ai* j*ee*o ||
_I remember Him in meditation with every breath and morsel of food, with perfect faith. How could I forget Him from my mind?_

*oo*ch athh*aa*h b*ae*a(n)th s*u**aa*m*ee* s*i*mar s*i*mar ho j*ee*v*aa(n)* j*ee*o ||1||
_Highest of the High, Unfathomable, Infinite Lord and Master: *continually remembering You in deep meditation, I live. *||1||_

gharr*ee* m*oo*rath s*i*marath pal va(n)n(j)eh*i* j*ee*van safal th*i*thh*aa**ee* j*ee*o ||1||
_If you remember the Lord in meditation for a moment, even for an instant, then your life will become fruitful and prosperous. ||1||_

s*i*maro dh*i*n r*ai*n s*aa*s g*i*r*aa*s*aa* ||3||
_remember Him in meditation, day and night, with every breath and every morsel of food. ||3||_

s*i*mar s*i*mar s*i*mar g*u*nath*aa*s ||3||
_Remember, remember, remember Him in meditation; He is the treasure of excellence. ||3||_

har s*i*marath n*aa*nak s*u*kh p*aa*e*i**aa* ||4||8||77||
_Remembering the Lord in meditation, Nanak has found peace. ||4||8||77||_

j*i*s s*i*marath dh*u*kh dd*ae*r*aa* dteh*ai* ||
_Remembering Him in meditation, the home of sorrow is abolished._

j*i*s s*i*marath jam k*i*shh*oo* n keh*ai* ||
_Remembering Him in meditation, the Messenger of Death shall not touch you._

s*i*marath r*aa*m n*aa*h*ee* jam m*aa*r ||
_Remembering the Lord in meditation, you shall not be punished by the Messenger of Death._

kah*u* n*aa*nak g*u*r ma(n)thra ch*i*th*aa*r ||
_Says Nanak, remember the GurMantra;_


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## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2012)

Chazji

I have thought about you quite a lot over the bank holiday weekend, and at times, I have found myself just wishing I could switch off the white noise in my head, just to find some calm, some peace, (backlog of 15 pc's/laptops to get out), however, and after giving he matter a huge amount of thought, my feeling is that this simran you speak of, are mind clearing practices, all our minds are different, in mine, I see wolves and clowns, in yours you see the five thieves, my own personal opinion is that one needs to really understand what is going on in your head rather than block it out, take for example gambling, drinking and women, all  used to have a huge hold on me, that now I find boring, I do not need to do simran to block them out, I have understood what they represent, the fun I could have in indulging in them, and the peace I have if I do not, of course I still have a few things that I need to work on, but the things I have ticked, they cannot touch me again, ever. My method utilises learning about yourself, really getting into your head and mentally debating, using the fine words of wisdom from the SGGS, there is no need to read off huge parts of Bani, when sometimes just thinking about one line will suffice. Not chanting, or repeating, but understanding, just one line can be enough. 

So, question, and an honest answer required, do you use simran to envelop yourself in grace so that you can fight off the thieves, or do you use simran as a learning tool in the hope that one day you can understand the five thieves and understand why they have nothing to entice you with?

your brother harry


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> I have thought about you quite a lot over the bank holiday weekend, and at times, I have found myself just wishing I could switch off the white noise in my head, just to find some calm, some peace, (backlog of 15 pc's/laptops to get out), however, and after giving he matter a huge amount of thought, my feeling is that this simran you speak of, are mind clearing practices, all our minds are different, in mine, I see wolves and clowns, in yours you see the five thieves, my own personal opinion is that one needs to really understand what is going on in your head rather than block it out, take for example gambling, drinking and women, all used to have a huge hold on me, that now I find boring, I do not need to do simran to block them out, I have understood what they represent, the fun I could have in indulging in them, and the peace I have if I do not, of course I still have a few things that I need to work on, but the things I have ticked, they cannot touch me again, ever. My method utilises learning about yourself, really getting into your head and mentally debating, using the fine words of wisdom from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there is no need to read off huge parts of Bani, when sometimes just thinking about one line will suffice. Not chanting, or repeating, but understanding, just one line can be enough.
> 
> ...


 
Great post harry Ji,

The very fact you are doing all of the above is Grace. The contemplation, the wanting to be a better person, the changes you've made...all is grace 

For your very interesting question i will try and explain the best i can from my own experience.

Gurbani keeps telling us to try and 'Remember' god, to 'Wake up'.
What should we remember? am i somehow asleep? that i need to Awaken?
What on earth is God talking about?

har k*aa* n*aa*m n ch*ae*th*ai* pr*aa*n*ee* b*i*kal bhae*iaa* sa(n)g m*aa*e*iaa* ||
*You do not remember the Name of the Lord, and you become confused by Maya.
*
dh*oo*j*ai* bh*aa*e s*u*th*ae* kabeh*i* n j*aa*geh*i* m*aa*e*iaa* m*o*h p*iaa*r ||
_*Asleep in the love of duality, they never wake up; they are in love with, and attached to Maya*_

Is he trying to take me back to a place where i once was?....from where i have been away so long, that i dont remember anymore? Do i need to pysically move, is Guru Ji referring to my Consciousness?

Quick Story:
A Man, living an eventful life, has a car crash, severe head injuries.
Wakes up and cannot remember anything anymore, who he was, who his family was. Doctors try to really 'wake' him up and make him 'REMEMBER' using various 'techniques'. 

The technique discussed in Gurbani is Simran/Meditation.

a(n)tharagath theerathh mal naao ||
*cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.*

What is this Shrine 'DEEP WITHIN'?

You see, God implanted in us a method by which we can remember him if our attachment to his creation becomes too strong. 
If you are attached to something, you need to withdraw from it, but the 5 thieves have us by our hair

ghar meh*i* a(n)mr*i*th thasakar l*ae**ee* ||
_In the house of the self is the Ambrosial Nectar, which is being stolen by the thieves._

As in the above quote, the amrith is within us, the 5 thieves prevent us from experiencing it.

So i use Simran to come face to face with the 5 thieves deep within me. I mean to the core of where they actually exists. in my subconscious mind.
I can 'see' what the thieves are up to, which of them 'influence' me more by the thoughts and images that apear in my head.

Rather than skimming the surface of the 5 thieves in my daily life i.e. not perving at a woman, being jelous of someone else, stopping myself from getting upset if someone slanders me or my family...instead i am going to the core, the root cause and trying to clear it permanently.

And what i've found is when you start to hold down the 5 thieves more and more, your experiences of god increases, you can almost plot it on a graph. Ego is the worst one. move that to one side and god literally shines through, hence the title of this thread "inner vision".

The Simran Medition is for an hour or two per day, after which you have the rest of the day to do your outer Simran, i.e. charity, seva, and testing how much your character is changing with the internal Simran you're doing. You have your inner experience of God, and also your outer experience with God (creation).

n*i*j ghar mehal p*aa*vah*u* s*u*kh sehaj*ae* bah*u*r n h*o*e*i*g*o* f*ae*r*aa* ||3||
_Within the home of your own *inner being*, you shall obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence with intuitive ease. You shall not be consigned again to the wheel of reincarnation. ||3||_

s*aa*th sam*u*(n)dh bhar*ae* n*i*ramal n*ee*r ||
_the seven seas *within* are filled with the Immaculate Water._

These Seven Seas refer to the Seven Chakras (hinduism) and Seven Seals (christianity). They exist within us, and as you really truly start to defeat your 5 thieves from deep within your mind, the Amrit starts to flow through your body through all of the Seven energy centres (seven Seas).

When i do my simran and experience as per Guru Ji's grace, i can come back to gurbani and relate to such quotes as above.

Hope this explains.

God bless you.


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## findingmyway (Jun 6, 2012)

ChazSingh ji,

Firstly, a quick comment relating to rules of this website
1) Always quote ang numbers so others can look at the shabad for their own understanding too.
2) Always include the original Gurmukhi for the same reason. Many of us find the English alliteration very difficult to read and follow!
3) Never use only 1 or 2 lines as this leads to misleading translations. You MUST quote complete shabads so there is context to the lines of relevance.

The above posts will remain but future posts MUST adhere to these rules in order to promote a positive and constructive learning environment. Thanks for your understanding. Please go back and add Ang numbers.


Secondly, in response to your comments directed at me. My understanding of simran is much broader than yours. It is more akin what has been written by Tejwant Singh here http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/1046-simran-how-to-do-it.html#post6428

Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. I am extremely happy for you that you find simran helpful. I do not. Different people work differently and my understanding of Gurbani's references to simran are implementing Gurbani in your life, however that may be. For some it is the constant repetition of Waheguru. For me personally, that does not work at all. For me its always analysing myself, my words and actions, its doing voluntary work and it is working through my sehaj paath very slowly trying to understand Gurbani rather that reciting it only (no matter how much love goes into the recitation, itis not enough for me).


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## Luckysingh (Jun 7, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> So, question, and an honest answer required, do you use simran to envelop yourself in grace so that you can fight off the thieves, or do you use simran as a learning tool in the hope that one day you can understand the five thieves and understand why they have nothing to entice you with?
> 
> your brother harry


 
I think the most appropriate answer is Both of them. But it is more of a tool to help you. 
Personally, I find that I would be implementing the word and bani throughout the day but sometimes I sense a lack of connection.
This feeling of loss of connection with the Lord is when I am or have been to occupied mentally. I may well be contemplating bani and shabads but there just seems a distance that has been created by me, myself.
However, once I do the simran and meditation then this missing void gets filled.
Again, I start to feel the immense love for creator and creation.

So, in my case it really helps me to connect and it feels amazing when done. Sometimes it feels that I may have lost track a little and gone off route- the simran and meditation helps bring me back on the track. In this sense I would regard it as a tool.

I'm not sure if others are affected in the same manner, but for me, I am thankful that the lord has given me this tool and ability to connect to the maximum.


Waheguru


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## chazSingh (Jun 7, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Personally, I find that I would be implementing the word and bani throughout the day but sometimes I sense a lack of connection.
> This feeling of loss of connection with the Lord is when I am or have been to occupied mentally. I may well be contemplating bani and shabads but there just seems a distance that has been created by me, myself.
> However, once I do the simran and meditation then this missing void gets filled.
> 
> Waheguru


 
Great Post Lucky Ji, 

on the comments above, Guru Amar Das so beautiful wrote:

ijnI iek min nwmu iDAwieAw gurmqI vIcwir ]
jinee eik man naam dhhiaaeiaa guramathee veechaar ||
*Those who meditate single-mindedly on the Naam, and contemplate the Teachings of the Guru
* 
iqn ky muK sd aujly iqqu scY drbwir ]
thin kae mukh sadh oujalae thith sachai dharabaar ||
*their faces are forever radiant in the Court of the True Lord.*
Siree Raag 28

The words *meditate* with *'Eik Man'* or* 'Single Mindedly'* as you say is sometimes so very difficult to do when we're really busy with our daily lives. Millions of worldly thoughts passing through our minds.

Finding some precious moments to be able to sit down in a quiet place, close your eyes and try to feel gods prescence within you and try to contemplate him *'Single Mindedly' *is a blessing from Guru Ji.

God bless you and the sangat.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2012)

Chazji, 

It is clear neither of us will deviate from our chosen methods, for instance, I often play heavy metal whilst contemplating Creator, and sometimes, I get a wow moment, when I understand and realise what the message is, and how clever or noble it is. 

As the idea is to integrate the message in real life, it seems apt to have real life around me while I contemplate, anyhoo, might I suggest one of us posts a shabad, and our own interpretation, and then we can compare the two, or sangat can also offer their own interpretations, not to change minds, but just to see the myriad of colours that is the rainbow of thought that can come out of Bani, I think it would be interesting,


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## chazSingh (Jun 7, 2012)

Satnaam Harry Ji,

One example of beautiful gurbani: 1402

ieik pVih suxih gwvih prBwiqih krih ies˜wnu ]
eik parrehi sunehi gaavehi parabhaathihi karehi eisaan ||
*Some read and listen and sing of Him, taking their cleansing bath in the early hours of the morning before the dawn.*
*Waking up at amrit vela to contemplate god. The mind Reads, the soul listens. Cleansing bath is the ineternal cleansing of the mind of the 5 thieves (some people take this literal and think its an actual bath)
* 
ies˜wnu krih prBwiq suD min gur pUjw ibiD sihq krM ]
eisaan karehi parabhaath sudhh man gur poojaa bidhh sehith kara(n) ||
*After their cleansing bath in the hours before the dawn, they worship the Guru with their minds pure and clear.*
*After the amrit vela cleansing bath (mind cleaning), we worship the guru, serve his creation i.e the people around us, seva, charity, looking after the environment etc etc. But with our minds more pure and clear due to the cleansing bath (min cleaning)
* 
kMcnu qnu hoie pris pwrs kau joiq srUpI D´wnu DrM ]
ka(n)chan than hoe paras paaras ko joth saroopee dhhyaan dhhara(n) ||
*Touching the Philosopher's Stone, their bodies are transformed into gold. They focus their meditation on the Embodiment of Divine Light.*
*What is this philosphers stone? how do we meditate on the divine light. By Gurus grace i feel i know and have experienced this. this is not for me to tell you, its for you to put the faith in and experience yourself.
* 
jgjIvnu jgMnwQu jl Ql mih rihAw pUir bhu ibiD brnµ ]
jagajeevan jaga(n)naathh jal thhal mehi rehiaa poor bahu bidhh barana(n) ||
*The Master of the Universe, the very Life of the World pervades the sea and the land, manifesting Himself in myriads of ways.
explains itself, but still many don't actually deep down believe in this.*

siqguru guru syiv AlK giq jw kI sRI rwmdwsu qwrx qrxM ]4]
sathigur gur saev alakh gath jaa kee sree raamadhaas thaaran tharana(n) ||4||
*So serve the Guru, the True Guru; His ways and means are inscrutable. The Great Guru Raam Daas is the Boat to carry us across. ||4||
Explains itself 
*ijnhu bwq insçl DR¨A jwnI qyeI jIv kwl qy bcw ]
jinahu baath nischal dhhrooa jaanee thaeee jeev kaal thae bachaa ||
*Those who realize the Eternal, Unchanging Word of God, like Dhroo, are immune to death.
In the beginning was the word, the word was with god, the word is god. Anhad Shabad, Naaam, call it what you like - exists in all, in me and you and eveything. By gurus grace we'll become aware and realise this.* 
iqn@ qirE smudRü rudRü iKn iek mih jlhr ibMb jugiq jgu rcw ]
thinh thariou samudhra rudhra khin eik mehi jalehar bi(n)b jugath jag rachaa ||
*They cross over the terrifying world-ocean in an instant; the Lord created the world like a bubble of water.
*Explains itself 
kuMflnI surJI sqsMgiq prmwnµd gurU muiK mcw ]
ku(n)ddalanee surajhee sathasa(n)gath paramaana(n)dh guroo mukh machaa ||
*The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss.*
*Dormant Kundalini energy rises, lighting up the Sat Sarovar (seven chakras) energy centres. through the word of the guru and we enjoy the lord. All happens within us. and all are capable of this if we trust in SGGS Ji and our internal Guru.*


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## chazSingh (Jun 7, 2012)

Satnaam Harry Ji,

Another example. The meaning i write are just from my own experience and current understanding. As mentioned by other members, gurbani is endless, infinate. As our own consciousness evolves and uplifts, the meaning also evolves and becomes deeper.

Gurbani taken from: Raag Maajh 110

syvw suriq sbid icqu lwey ]
saevaa surath sabadh chith laaeae ||
*Center your awareness on seva-selfless service-and focus your consciousness on the Word of the Shabad.*
*Surat shabad - to focus all of our attention and consciosness on the shabad*
*Me personally i find this hard to do when running around all day, work, family, lifes stress. I find i can dedicate my consciosness to the shabad during meditation/Simran.
* 
haumY mwir sdw suKu pwieAw mwieAw mohu cukwvixAw ]1]
houmai maar sadhaa sukh paaeiaa maaeiaa mohu chukaavaniaa ||1||
*Subduing your ego, you shall find a lasting peace, and your emotional attachment to Maya will be dispelled. ||1||
*focusing your attention and consciousness on the shabad, you come face to face with the 5 thieves and your ego. Slowly with guru Ji grace they start to subside. 

hau vwrI jIau vwrI siqgur kY bilhwrixAw ]
ho vaaree jeeo vaaree sathigur kai balihaaraniaa ||
*I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, I am totally devoted to the True Guru.
* 
gurmqI prgwsu hoAw jI Anidnu hir gux gwvixAw ]1] rhwau ]
guramathee paragaas hoaa jee anadhin har gun gaavaniaa ||1|| rehaao ||
*Through the Guru's Teachings, the Divine Light has dawned; I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, night and day. ||1||Pause||*
*again, this divine light is not for me to tell you about...its for you to experience with full trust and devotion to your guru.
* 
qnu mnu Kojy qw nwau pwey ]
than man khojae thaa naao paaeae ||
*Search your body and mind, and find the Name.
*How can one search their own body and mind when running round in their busy lives all day, then sleeping at night. When do we really get time to understand our own being, who we are, what we are, and what is within the mind and body (and i dont mean the organs). i mean, analyze our consciosuness, what it is, what is the mind, the 5 thieves. come face to face with them. For me, doing Surat Shabad simran (consciousnes focussed on shabad) is what works for me. Others may find something else.

Dwvqu rwKY Twik rhwey ]
dhhaavath raakhai t(h)aak rehaaeae ||
*Restrain your wandering mind, and keep it in check.*
*Can be done at a conscious level while awake in daily life.*
*Can be done at the root subconscious level during Simran
* 
gur kI bwxI Anidnu gwvY shjy Bgiq krwvixAw ]2]
gur kee baanee anadhin gaavai sehajae bhagath karaavaniaa ||2||
*Night and day, sing the Songs of the Guru's Bani; worship the Lord with intuitive devotion. ||2||
*Self explanatory 
iesu kwieAw AMdir vsqu AsMKw ]
eis kaaeiaa a(n)dhar vasath asa(n)khaa ||
*Within this body are countless objects.
*What are these objects? 

gurmuiK swcu imlY qw vyKw ]
guramukh saach milai thaa vaekhaa ||
*The Gurmukh attains Truth, and comes to see them.
In the end only the truth matters, not the millions of opinions based on non-experience. It's only now that these verses of gurbani have started to mean something to me. In the future i may return to this verse and it means even more. But only by Guru Ji's grace. *

nau drvwjy dsvY mukqw Anhd sbdu vjwvixAw ]3]
no dharavaajae dhasavai mukathaa anehadh sabadh vajaavaniaa ||3||
*Beyond the nine gates, the Tenth Gate is found, and liberation is obtained. The Unstruck Melody of the Shabad vibrates. ||3||
*Body contains 9 openings, there is also a tenth (tenth gate) which when opened connects you to the whole cosmos and to the Shabad (anhad shabad) which permeates everywhere and withing everything. With Guru Ji's grace i pray we are all lifted to this moment.


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## arshi (Jun 7, 2012)

6.6.12: Chaz Singh wrote:
<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥ ਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ॥
_motee ta mandar oosreh ratnee ta hohi jarhaa-o. kastoor kungoo agar chandan leep aavai chaa-o._


*Palaces built of rubies, studded with gems, plastered with a mixture of saffron, and sprayed with perfume and fragrance of sandalwood, create yearning ambitions within the heart and mind (man's soul is bewitched by burning desires).*


ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ॥੧॥
_mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||1||_

*(Shall I succumb (give in) to these worldly desires?)*

*O Lord, bless my soul, lest these worldly distractions lead me astray and I forget Thy Name.*


ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ॥ ਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
_har bin jee-o jal bal jaa-o.__mai aapnaa gur poochh daykhi-aa avar naahee thaa-o. ||1|| rahaa-o._


*Without Thee O Lord, the threshold of my inner consciousness being) is scorched by the burning desires for worldly status and riches. I have consulted my Guru who has convinced me that there is no eternal sanctuary other than that in the House of God. Pause.*


ਧਰਤੀ ਤ ਹੀਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੜਤੀ ਪਲਘਿ ਲਾਲ ਜੜਾਉ ॥ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਣੀ ਸੋਹੈ ਕਰੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੨॥ _dh__artee ta heeray laal jarh-tee palagh laal jarhaa-o. mohnee mukh manee sohai karay rang pasaa-o._


*If there be a floor set in a mosaic of precious diamonds and rubies, supporting a couch encased in gems; *


*And were then a vivacious maiden, bedecked in diamonds and emeralds, with loving gestures, to invite me to her couch; may I not, O Lord, on beholding this wonder astray and forget Thy Name.*


ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥
_siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o. gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o. mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3||_


*Were I to become a man of mystic powers, well-versed in the arts of occult and mysticism, able to perform miracles and summon wealth and glory at will;*


*And were I to become visible and invisible at will, thereby earning myself the reverence and esteem of all people;*

*May I not on attaining such status forget Thee and remember not Thy Name.*


ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਮੇਲਿ ਲਸਕਰ ਤਖਤਿ ਰਾਖਾ ਪਾਉ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਸਲੁ ਕਰੀ ਬੈਠਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਭ ਵਾਉ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੧॥_sultaan hovaa mayl laskar takhat raakhaa paa-o. hukam haasal karee baithaa naankaa sabh vaa-o. mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||4||1||_


*Were I to install myself on the throne of an emperor, possessing a huge army, endowed with worldly riches;*


*And were I able to exercise total control over my people, all this will not help achieve Eternal Bliss, for O’ Nanak, such worldly possessions blow away with the mere gust of wind.*


I apologise for any errors in this old translation of mine (done in 1992 and quickly reviewed today) but the point is that life is full of temptations at all stages of our existence. We do not know what is round the corner. 
Staying connected to our Guru is the only way not to succumb and fall prey to these worldly illusions. We all try to remain attached in our own ways but we ensure we are progressing in the right direction. This applies to me as much as to anyone else.


Again, I am genuinely humbled by the dedication and humility displayed by you, Lucky ji, Harry ji and findingmyway ji, all of you younger than my eldest son.


Best wishes.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## chazSingh (Jun 7, 2012)

arshi said:


> 6.6.12: Chaz Singh wrote:
> <?"urn:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Rajinder Singh Ji,

Such beautiful and precious shabad and a great post for this thread.

I am a filthy sinner and Guru Ji knows what i have done in my life. All we can do is fall at Guru Ji's feet and hope that he forgives us.

And when He makes himself known to you, the joy just flows out and you want to share with everyone, you want everyone to feel that joy.

And as you said, life keeps coming up with the tests, and we need to keep continuing with the Simran and Seva so that we can pass through the difficult times with our heads held high.

God Bless you Ji and the sangat.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 8, 2012)

arshi said:


> <?"urn:<img src=" />
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are correct that we fall prey too easily to these worldly illusions. Sometimes even doing seva for some gives them a false ego enhancer, making themselves feel better than others around them.
Seeing these examples around me, I sometimes try very hard to not put a value in terms of time or money on any seva I do.
I fear that it can give this false sense of pride and ego. 
Thus, something that looks like a very good and physical deed being carried out by me, may actually be keeping me on my toes and aware of this ego, this me, me, me...I've done this,this,this... is something that I fear too much even when I am exposing good around me.

These are the tests you mention that keep occuring. The more we progress the more different forms and disguises we encounter.

Me personally, I find that simran helps keep my feet on the ground a little better. Maybe it does enhance my awareness so that I am able to view the mirror that is always infront of me reflecting me, or seeing how the lord may be viewing me.

This approach helps to conquer my weakness but it doesn't make me more closer to perfection. I find the closer I get to try and better myself, the more unexpected opportunities arise that move the goals further, OR maybe I keep becoming more and more aware and conscious of what to and what not to avoid. 
For eg.. I may be on my way to do a driving test. On the way, I meet a tramp and then I decide to help and buy them breakfast and give money for them to purchase food later.
Now, on my way to the test it may seem so easy for me to get false ego and pride in what I've done, so that if I pass I would feel that I deserved it.!!- 
This feeling can come on quite easily and in the past I wasn't always aware of it. But this is the kind that I'm talking about, that we must conquer and eradicate. I should instead be thinking that I should have helped this poor person on a daily basis in the past, and that I should be planning to help them tomorrow and the future. So, just by me helping and doing this seva is not the end of it, it actually is the beginning of an encounter that will leave me feeling one way or the other.

But it is all so easy for us to think, i've done my bit, now it's someone elses turn!!! --These thoughts and feelings we must try to eradicate. 
Once embarking on such a charitble cause should be the beginning of a new journey not just -I have spare time, spare cash, so I can help. 
It's this part after and commitment to carry on regardless that I find most challenging.


Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2012)

> For eg.. I may be on my way to do a driving test. On the way, I meet a tramp and then I decide to help and buy them breakfast and give money for them to purchase food later.
> Now, on my way to the test it may seem so easy for me to get false ego and pride in what I've done, so that if I pass I would feel that I deserved it.!!-



I am sorry Luckyji, I do not find this sewa at all.In my view sewa requires discretion, intelligence and foresight. I know it is tempting to help all and sundry, to just throw money at things, but you can easily cause more problems than solving. This brings me right to the crux of the problem with simran as described by yourself and Chazji. Your meditating and absorbing only the surface philosophies, therefore, the primary intention will always be the most obvious. Where is the thinking? Your simran has only taught you to give up your time and your money, as that is in line with 'doing good', but there is more to doing good than blindly giving up time and money. 

Firstly why is the tramp a tramp? because no one actually sits him down and asks him why. The more money and time you give this tramp, the longer you are making him suffer this lifestyle, better to put him in touch with the various agencies that can advise benefits/housing/job advice etc, but how far do you go, do you bring the tramp home? do you rub his feet? In my view you do all you can to enable him to help himself, and this is the brilliant concept that balances everything in Sikhism so that we do not turn into ascetics or mountain top sitters, we have to remember that this is not a test, it is also our life, and we must live and find the balance between sewa and life. 

Also, there are plenty of people in hospitals, prisons, wheelchairs, through no fault of their own, so who takes priority, tramps or an eight year old girl dying of cancer? This again is down to the intelligence and brains that we have been given, so that we may use our logic and discretion to be a good Sikh to all in need. 

Everything with the simran brigade seems to be surface only, repeating of mantras, giving away time and money with little thought to the consequences, using chanting to keep away evil thoughts, where is the thinking? 

When we do sewa we must be aware that it is a huge responsibility, and one that must be administrated with a huge care as to the consequences, are we making the situation worse? better? or just trying to keep a deity happy? or, can we see Creator in the situation that has come across us, and in that light, use our brains, logic, and be guided by Bani as to what the true and right course of action is.


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## chazSingh (Jun 8, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I am sorry Luckyji,
> No need to be sorry Harry Ji, I'm sure Lucky Ji will continue to have 'actual' experience of the truth even if the whole Forum dissagreed with him.
> 
> I do not find this sewa at all.In my view sewa requires discretion, intelligence and foresight. I know it is tempting to help all and sundry, to just throw money at things, but you can easily cause more problems than solving.
> ...


 
God bless all


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## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2012)

> Harry ji, In a previous post you wrote
> "1pm An extremely attractive woman comes in selling a laptop, I note she is wearing a low cut top, I spend the entire conversation looking directly at her eyes and behaving like a professional, of course there is a part of me like all men that wishes to have a quick peek, but again, a big red light is flashing in my head with 'wrong' written all over it"
> 
> Now, I commend you from stopping yourself from looking down her top, realising it was wrong BUT the THOUGHT still came into your head. Ask youself, why did this thought come into your mind in the first place? where did it originate from? you dont want to be "like all men" and "wish to peek", you are on this site i'm hoping because you want to attain the truth and become your true self? am i right?
> ...



Chazji, 

We are never going to agree, so it is important we both understand this, otherwise we are going to get bogged down in attempts to convert the other. I admire your love and devotion, I have always said that, I do try and write my posts so it is clear they are my thoughts only, rather than the universal truth, but different things work for different people. 

I am a man, the minute I stop acting like a man, I am either dead, or I have attained complete understanding and enlightenment. Now I have to be honest with you, I am a realist, I have to this date, never met a man who had attained understanding to the point that he would not have been aware of a draw on one of his thieves, in fact, I am not sure I wish to be without this draw, its what makes me human, and not superhuman. I am happy and content with the fact that I can be discerning enough to know how to treat the opposite sex, even though I still have age old animal instincts. I understand these instincts, sometimes they are for good, sometimes for bad, it is a case of knowing which is good, and to embrace, and which is bad, and ignore, this is nothing to do with cleansing, more to live in peace, understanding and consonance. 



> Priority is not the question, its the purity of heart in which the Seva is carried out. Give what you can, help in any way you can with a pure heart. otherwise the Seva is pointless and just feeding one or more of the 5 thieves within you.



If priority is not the question, and you come across two situations at the same time, one a woman being raped, and the other a man with a flat tyre, then you would not use logic and discretion to evaluate which deserved your help the most? I would rather help the woman being raped with an impure heart (impure heart meaning my motives may be for the self, that I am doing something good) than change the tyre with a pure one.............



> The DEPTH'NESS of Simran cannot be described to someone who has never tried it



Au contraire, I have tried it, and found it put me in the same state as drugs do. I prefer to be aware and alert, not doped up on meditation. 




> baahar ka(n)chan baarehaa bheethar bharee bha(n)gaar ||145||
> On the outside, he may look like pure gold, but on the inside, he is stuffed with dust. ||145||
> 
> 
> ...



Neither I, nor my shop look professional, the shop is full of computers in various states of assembly, I am wearing my normal attire of a dirty t shirt, old shorts, one pink sock, one red sock, and the local kids pop by every morning to play guess the food stain on my t shirt, professional I am not..., I do not think I will ever not have these thoughts, but I understand these thoughts, and I do not act on them. They do not even bother me, if anything, I am pleased that I have educated myself through Bani as to how I should deal with them, I am in control, not the thoughts, thoughts come and go, that is how brains work, your method of cleansing, I warrant, will destroy a lot more than your thoughts



> The soul doesn't need LOGIC, its acts on truth, and complete purity (its made of the same thing as God). Until our mind is in complete control of your 5 thieves all logic by the brain will be in one way or the other influenced by the 5 thieves.



This is just rhetoric, what is a soul? how can I possibly relate to this when I have no idea what a soul is? you are also contradicting yourself, are you cleansing yourself of the thieves, or controlling them?




> AMimRq nwmu irdY hir jwpY ]1]
> a(n)mrith naam ridhai har jaapai ||1||
> They meditate on the Ambrosial Name of the Lord within their hearts. ||1||
> 
> ...



I have always said english translations are pretty terrible regarding extracting the beauty and logic from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If you replace meditate with contemplate, then you have my interpretation., 

Always a pleasure debating with you, I hope you do not find me mundahug brusque, and if so, I apologise


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## chazSingh (Jun 8, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji,
> 
> We are never going to agree, so it is important we both understand this, otherwise we are going to get bogged down in attempts to convert the other. I admire your love and devotion, I have always said that, I do try and write my posts so it is clear they are my thoughts only, rather than the universal truth, but different things work for different people.
> 
> ...


 
Yes harry Ji, we are just debating, there should be some joy in this, for i am learning from you also 

when i throw questions in the air i'm not stating that i know the answer or that i am enlightened, its to get us contemplating about these things.
Sometimes it appears that i am asking you questions...but i'm alsi asking myself.

you stated 

what is a soul? how can I possibly relate to this when I have no idea what a soul is? you are also contradicting yourself, are you cleansing yourself of the thieves, or controlling them?

kal*i*j*u*g meh*i* dhharr*ae* pa(n)ch ch*o*r jhagarr*aa*e*ae* ||
_In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the five thieves instigate alliances and conflicts. 366_
pa(n)ch dh*oo*th m*oo*dd par t(h)*aa*dt*ae* k*ae*s geh*ae* f*ae*r*aa*vath h*ae* ||
_The five thieves stand over your head and seize you. Grabbing you by your hair, they will drive you on 821_

_From the above Guru Ji is telling us that we have becomes slaves to the 5 thieves, that our actions are not true, we're being tormented by them, they drive us to cause alliances in family, cities, countries, war, fights, hatred, ego. you name it, they're pulling the strings._


pa(n)ch dh*aa*s g*u*r vasagath k*ee*n*ae* man n*i*hachal n*i*rabhae*i**aa* ||
_Subduing the five thieves, he Guru has made them my slaves; my mind has become stable and steady and fearless. 1213_

By the above quote, Guru is telling us that we can overcome them, they still exists, but instead of them having Us enslaved, they become our slaves....i do not know how that will feel because i'm not in that state yet, but i'm guessing it will be a blissful state not being tormented by them constantly.
And just like guru Ji has described my mind will become "_my mind has become stable and steady and fearless" i would rather my mind be like this, than fearful of the future, doubts over relationships, anger towards another, fear over money matters, desire for a million things that cause you to act in a bad way._

The soul is our true self, sometimes we think "lets give a helping hand to someone in need" thats our soul talking. then all of a sudden in our mind creeps the thought "but what will my wife/husband say" "i may need the money myself next month" "what has this other person done for me?" "Leave it this time, do it next time" "people will think i'm silly doing this"
They come whizzing into the brain to torment us.

This is the 5 doots stopping you from doing what your Soul (you want to do)


god bless everyone.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2012)

> Yes harry Ji, we are just debating, there should be some joy in this, for i am learning from you also



I am enjoying the debate myself too, and there is much joy in it, I have had to postpone my daily guess the stains competition as it is making my brain work, for that I salute you. 

The thieves are also capable of much good, that is why I feel we must control them, I have spent time devoid of all thieves, not in control, but devoid, and it was not much fun, I became a vegetable, a cabbage...



> By the above quote, Guru is telling us that we can overcome them, they still exists, but instead of them having Us enslaved, they become our slaves..



Now we are getting closer to each other, I absolutely agree with you here, if you wish, google platos chariot, it talks of similar



> The soul is our true self, sometimes we think "lets give a helping hand to someone in need" thats our soul talking. then all of a sudden in our mind creeps the thought "but what will my wife/husband say" "i may need the money myself next month" "what has this other person done for me?" "Leave it this time, do it next time" "people will think i'm silly doing this"
> They come whizzing into the brain to torment us.
> 
> This is the 5 doots stopping you from doing what your Soul (you want to do)



Up until a few years ago, I would have agreed with you on this completely, however, my wife inherited some money, about £100,000, which should have been used to help us through old age, instead, we gave most of it away, looking back, none of the people we 'helped' have benefited, we just made people with problems reliant on us, and those problems came back when the money ran out, now there is a tendency to say, help everyone, Guruji helps those who help others, but I do not think this is the essence of Sikhism, you do not help others to then have to request help, that is pointless, and to feel that 'everything will be ok' smells of superstition and magic, when none exists, there is only us, our actions, and consonance, prior to helping anyone, or thinking anything, we must be in consonance with the world, our surroundings, and more important, with ourself. Some of those words should be heeded to, not all are an effort to stop us helping, some are for self preservation, so that we do not become reliant on others, which must be every Sikhs nightmare, as we are a self reliant lot

It is not my intention to change your mind, life experience will do that on its own, but I do enjoy the debates, must go now, there is a queue of children outside............


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 8, 2012)

_Satnaam Ji_

I am a man, the minute I stop acting like a man, I am either dead, or I have attained complete understanding and enlightenment. Now I have to be honest with you, I am a realist, I have to this date, never met a man who had attained understanding to the point that he would not have been aware of a draw on one of his thieves, in fact, I am not sure I wish to be without this draw, its what makes me human, and not superhuman. I am happy and content with the fact that I can be discerning enough to know how to treat the opposite sex, even though I still have age old animal instincts. I understand these instincts, sometimes they are for good, sometimes for bad, it is a case of knowing which is good, and to embrace, and which is bad, and ignore, this is nothing to do with cleansing, more to live in peace, understanding and consonance. 

_Living in Naam is living in/practicing Truth. The point of practicing Truth is to silence the mind. When we go into samadhi, we are quieting our minds to the point that we can just Feel within our being. _

_When this happens, our hearts are freed from the shackles of the mind(origin of the 5 thieves)._

_It is then that we ae able to truly love- and discover the reality of the universe around us, for as you are aware- we are living in illusion._

_It goes further than sitting down samadhi- when we practice Nirboah and Nirvair and apply Truth throughout our daily lives(see my previous posts), the samadhi comes on it's own- we learn as we eat, sleep and live and throughout our natural lives. _

_We orginated from the silence- and we go back to it again.._


_When we begin to live in Truth, we are opening our hearts- to learn as and how He wills it- silencing the mind. We go way beyond logic on this path- for logic is tied down by maya- we cannot comprehend the Truth reality while dwelling in maya. _

_When our hearts begin to open- and we silence our minds- we begin to experience the energies of others- a woman with uncontrolled lust may walk into your store- her lust triggers off your lust and you simultaneously confuse it for your own- you blame yourself. _

_And we are to blame- for the reality is that we are Nothing. If we lived this truth, we'd be beyond the crap and the illusions. Our logic cannot decipher the Truth- you need to feel/experience it._

_God throws these scenarios at us, to confuse the crap out of us, to bow down low, realising that His Truth is beyond our Ego's(Mind/thieves/logic) and that we cannot do anything._

God bless you


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 8, 2012)

TruthSatnaam ji thanks for a good post.

I was doing my posting in the following and thought it may particularly apply to some of the dialog here,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhmani-sahib/38634-sukhmani-sahib-astpadi-23-sabad-1-a.html

Some lines referenced from the above post below,



TruthSatnaam said:


> _Living in Naam is living in/practicing Truth. The point of practicing Truth is to silence the mind. When we go into samadhi, we are quieting our minds to the point that we can just Feel within our being. _
> 
> _It is then that we ae able to truly love- and discover the reality of the universe around us, for as you are aware- we are living in illusion._


 ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ ਦੇਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੁ ॥ 
Na▫o niḏẖ amriṯ parabẖ kā nām. Ḏehī mėh is kā bisrām. 
_Nine treasures of purity is the creator’s understanding.  So residing in human body._


TruthSatnaam said:


> .......... _Our logic cannot decipher the Truth- you need to feel/experience it._


ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਅਨਹਤ ਤਹ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਅਚਰਜ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ ॥ 
Sunn samāḏẖ anhaṯ ṯah nāḏ. Kahan na jā▫ī acẖraj bismāḏ. 
_A continuous and unperturbed sound pervades such a body.  Such cannot be so stated, being mysterious and different._

 Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh (Jun 8, 2012)

TruthSatnaam said:


> _Satnaam Ji_
> _Living in Naam is living in/practicing Truth. The point of practicing Truth is to silence the mind. When we go into samadhi, we are quieting our minds to the point that we can just Feel within our being. _
> _Thank you ji for the enlightening words. I feel i am experiencing something like this now, i find it hard to explain, but the peace experienced fills me with joy. Sometimes the mind tries to interrupt, but i smile in meditation at the crazy things it flashes up. I think it's finally getting the message that i'm not interested in its logic, excuses, reasoning...it just holds you back, and if you want to experience all that is god, then the limits/shackles need to be let go of. _
> 
> ...


 
Thanks and god bless for such inspiration. This is why i opened this thread. True movement towards God realisation - seva - sharing - Simran.


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## TruthSatnaam (Jun 8, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> Thanks and god bless for such inspiration. This is why i opened this thread. True movement towards God realisation - seva - sharing - Simran.


 

No problem, anytime..

If you have any questions, drop me an email.

Satnaam Ji


Personal details removed. It is not safe internet practice. Please use the provate messaging facility on SPN


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## Luckysingh (Jun 8, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I am sorry Luckyji, I do not find this sewa at all.In my view sewa requires discretion, intelligence and foresight. I know it is tempting to help all and sundry, to just throw money at things, but you can easily cause more problems than solving. This brings me right to the crux of the problem with simran as described by yourself and Chazji. Your meditating and absorbing only the surface philosophies, therefore, the primary intention will always be the most obvious. Where is the thinking? Your simran has only taught you to give up your time and your money, as that is in line with 'doing good', but there is more to doing good than blindly giving up time and money.
> 
> .


 
I think you are going off track here, if your read my post again you can notice that I was giving an example. But you are defining seva and classing things as seva and not seva. As Chazji mentioned, helping with dishes, giving your neighbour tea bags is ALL seva. 
The point I was making is that when we start defining 'my seva' as you have done, this is when it goes wrong. This is when your 'ego' kicks in, the me,me,me,..I have done, I have done, I have done...Mine is worthy of seva.. Only mine is right...... etc...etc... ALL this fuels your EGO
This is the exact point that I'm making, it's too easy sometimes to do a certain seva, but what it does to your ego plays a huge part in how you use your MIND to control your 5 thieves.

Listen to this ego within, see what it's actually doing and making you think. 
When you mention that it is all surface etc.. this again is the ego that is making you class yourself in a different boat. It's not just you, its every single one of us, we all do it to some degree. BUT trying to identify it is the only way forward to help you conquer it.
Now I can truly say that in my case the simran has helped me to identify, but I still have a long way to go.

Waheguru


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## Luckysingh (Jun 8, 2012)

*Living in Naam is living in/practicing Truth. The point of practicing Truth is to silence the mind. When we go into samadhi, we are quieting our minds to the point that we can just Feel within our being. 

When this happens, our hearts are freed from the shackles of the mind(origin of the 5 thieves).*

Truthsatnaam ji,  
Your post above is marvellous. This practicing the truth by silencing mind is the only way no matter how one approaches it.
The only way to conquer weaknesses and 5 thieves is CONTROL of Your MIND.
This is my only conclusion. We can't just remove them and eradicate them for good as some people mistakenly believe, but we have to constantly be at battle with them by SILENCING them.
Only then can the truth become stronger. But we have to keep at it all the time, we cannot measure or quantify it. 

The more simran and meditation that I may do, the more avenues of areas I need to work at keep opening up. I'm convinced now that this is how it's supposed to be until the very last breath but I look forward to this journey to the Guru and his word.

Waheguru


Waheguru


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## sid (Jun 10, 2012)

every things is very simple and straight in this world no need too twist,just listen our inner voice,inner conscience it always is  same in all humans.
we just have to talk simple,live simple,help others,and ultimately dedicate every thing every deed  at last to god,and if we have to dedicate ourselves to god the only way is simran jaap of almighty


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## arshi (Jun 10, 2012)

Chaz ji
<?"urn:<img src=" />
Please forgive for the audacity to raise this. I am a little intrigued by your form of greeting ‘Satnaam’. Sikhs use the greeting ‘Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh’ or its, less formal, short form Gurfateh. Sat Siri Akal is also used as a general form of address when Sikhs run into each other – fmore popular amongst non-amritdharis. Sat Siri Akal is also used by our Naamdhari friends, on stage and otherwise. Please do not see this as a criticism – just plain curiousity and passion to learn.

As I have indicated in my earlier post, I am extremely impressed by your humility and dedication to Gurbani, although I do not necessarily agree with the techniques you use – I just do not know enough about your exact approach and discipline and would rather not discuss it anyway – no offence meant. Some use the ‘swas swas’ technique whilst others speak of ‘swas giras’. Harry ji has his personal approach. However, he is very sincere and truthful in what he does – his courage to talk about his innermost feelings and private life is commendable - each to his own as they say.

I am much closer to the approach described by Jasleen ji (findingmyway - hope I got the name right). She wrote:

<I>“Different people work differently and my understanding of Gurbani's references to simran are implementing Gurbani in your life, however that may be. For some it is the constant repetition of Waheguru. For me personally, that does not work at all. For me its always analysing myself, my words and actions, its doing voluntary work and it is working through my sehaj paath very slowly trying to understand Gurbani rather that reciting it only (no matter how much love goes into the recitation, it is not enough for me).”</I>
*<I></I>*
However, I also try to attune myself to the Guru’s teachings through <I>keertan,</I> sometimes, including a *brief* <I>chanting</I> of Waheguru at home and on stage. I, personally, do not engage in endless chanting (at home or on stage). I have seen a lot of this on TV and on various stages but the protagonists do not appear to extend their activities to the welfare of the general society they live in – they just operate within their own circles and add to divisions and confusion within the Sikh Panth and families – brothers do not speak to brothers or eat at each other’s place. I actually know of such cases. 

Yes we have problems with the Jathedars but we cannot blame them for all our ills. We as a nation must also take responsibility – we need to unite and strive and bridge the schisms created by an endless queue of babas and deras – apologies to the ones who are genuine and stand up for the mainstream Sikh values and interests. I personally am not into babas but have admired one or two from a distance – neither am I, currently, a member of any group, mainstream or otherwise, but I do take part, as an independent individual, in social activities, including keertan.

All of the above is meant in good spirit but apologies, nevertheless, for anything untoward in my post.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## chazSingh (Jun 11, 2012)

arshi said:


> Chaz ji
> 
> Please forgive for the audacity to raise this. I am a little intrigued by your form of greeting ‘Satnaam’. Sikhs use the greeting ‘Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh’ or its, less formal, short form Gurfateh. Sat Siri Akal is also used as a general form of address when Sikhs run into each other – fmore popular amongst non-amritdharis. Sat Siri Akal is also used by our Naamdhari friends, on stage and otherwise. Please do not see this as a criticism – just plain curiousity and passion to learn.
> Satnaam Ji, wjkk wjkf, sat sri akal...i use all of the above, in no particular order or popularity  The words/sounds of Waheguru and Satnaam have been with me since childhood when my mother used to tell me to jaap them and think about, be curious of God and Guru Ji.
> ...




God bless all.


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## arshi (Jun 11, 2012)

Chaz ji
<?"urn:<img src=" />
Many thanks for clearing up the points. I enjoy reading your posts and sharing your knowledge and practical experience in your pursuit of Sikhi. 

‘Satnaam’ is a wonderful shabd, part of our Mool Mantar – I was only curious as to its use as a form of greeting, the fact that you use it only as such answers my curiosity (BTW a cult used it more than a form of greeting but the lesser said the better). 

Re: deras etc - I was only trying to clarify my own position (one of total independence) in relation to babas, deras and cult organizations.

As far as simran is concerned it is a means to an end, i.e. to seek direction and guidance to conduct myself as a good, decent citizen on this earth and hopefully, with Guru’s grace to progress spiritually to acquit myself with some credit beyond this mortal life. 

I am glad we agree on many things, which means a lot, considering our current state of affairs, where we as a fraternity we do not seem to agree on much.

Best wishes and God Bless.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## chazSingh (Jun 11, 2012)

arshi said:


> Chaz ji
> <?"urn:<img src=" />
> Many thanks for clearing up the points. I enjoy reading your posts and sharing your knowledge and practical experience in your pursuit of Sikhi.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you ji for your posts. I wanted this thread for some serious discussion and sangat such as yourself have made it worthwhile. I'm sure we'll all have great discussions in the future also as we all progress towards God 

Sometimes on this forum it may seem like i'm coming across with one point of view, or come across as highlighting may way to be the only way. But i've only tried to speak from my own experience. I feel i'm having actual experience of guruji and god and want everyone to have such great personal experience whichever way it works for them.

In the end we don't actually do anything, the simran, the experiences, the effort, its all Him 

god bless you and the sangat.


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2013)

A recent post by heoric has been moved to begin a new thread. The content is not based on Gurmat understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and therefore should not be in the Sikh Sikhi Sikhism subforum. You can find the new thread at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/41948-the-inner-experience-and-subconscious-mind.html


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