# Are Creator And Creation The Same In Sikhism?



## K.Venugopal (Mar 16, 2009)

A Sikh on another forum said that according to Sikhism, the creator and his creation is one. I wanted to verify what he said and googled. That was when I came across your forum. I have now become a member and my first question is whether it is true that Sikhism believes that the creator and His creation is one.


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## spnadmin (Mar 16, 2009)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

K.Venugopal1 JI

First of all may I welcome you to SPN. I did the same as you. Googled a subject and navigated to the forum, and never left.

To your question: The notion that the Creator and Creation are one means that there is no duality. The Creator is in His Creation; all that is created is permeated with the presence and immanence of the Creator.

Here is where sometimes we can get confused. To say that Creator and Creation are one does NOT mean that they are equal or equivalent or "the same thing." Why? Because the Creator is also greater than Creation. He is beyond everything. The metaphor that is found in Gurbani to express this is "the fish is in the ocean; the ocean is in the fish." The ocean is much greater than the fish.

We have god-consciousness. We have god-centered hearts. Waheguru, is within each and everyone and searches each and every heart. But I am not the creator, Kartar Purakh Akaal. And Akaal is greater than I am. 

The essence of this is the need to move toward union with divine consciousness; not to become Akaal Himself.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 18, 2009)

*Creation & Creator in Sikhism*​ 
Creation is a process, which is unfolding according to the Absolute Divine Principle (God). It is of utmost importance to have a correct intellectual conception by the individual of the “Supreme Creator”, otherwise illogical and erroneous conception are capable of misleading and keeping in dark people who otherwise by their intuitions would be on the right track. The Universe itself is unfolding out of its own essence beyond the reach of our limited senses. Creation or the rule of existence is under one Divine Higher Power. It is a process, which applies to every thing seen (ਸਰਗੁਣੁ) and some thing in terms of Itself, cannot be defined or seen (ਨਿਰਗੁਣ). The visual manifestation in Mother Nature is the attributes (ਸਰਗੁਣੁ) of that Principle. It is One, and unity, which determines every thing, comes before every thing, and is the law of every thing.

He, who sees the Eternal existing alike in imperishable and perishable things, sees indeed. So God is every where, in every atom of the visible and invisible Cosmos as a Power of evolution and involution as expressed by Guru Arjan in Raag Gauri and Farid Slokes and Kabir in Raag Parbhati; 

ਸੂਖਮ ਅਸਥੂਲ ਸਗਲ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥

_Sūkẖam asthūl sagal bẖagvān._

God exists in all subtle and gross matter (ਨਿਰਗੁਣ & ਸਰਗੁਣ).
                                                    -----Guru Arjan, Thiti Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 299-17

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

_Farīḏā kẖālak kẖalak meh kẖalak vasai rab māhi._

Farid, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.
                                                           -----Guru Arjan, Sloke Farid, AGGS, Page, 1381-17

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥  
_Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā¬ī. Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak meh kẖālik pūr rahi¬o sarab ṯẖāŉ¬ī._

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places.
                                         -----Kabir, Raag Parbhati Bhibhas, AGGS, Page 1350-1

ਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਉਦਾਸਾਏ ॥ ਦੰਡਧਾਰ ਜਟਧਾਰੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਵਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਤੀਰਥਾਏ ॥ ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਮਨ ਮਾਏਂ ॥ ਊਭ ਪਇਆਲ ਸਰਬ ਮਹਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਰਸਿ ਮੰਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਏ ॥ ਜੋਗ ਭੇਖ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ਕਾਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਤਪੀ ਤਪੀਸੁਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਨਟ ਨਾਟਿਕ ਨਿਰਤਾਏ ॥ ਚਹੁ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਖਟ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਦਸ ਅਸਟੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਏ ॥ ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਨਹਿ ਤਉ ਕਿਸ ਤੇ ਕਹਉ ਦੁਰਾਏ ॥ ਅਗਹ ਅਗਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਨਹ ਕੀਮ ਕੀਮ ਕੀਮਾਏ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਜਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਟੀਆਏ ॥

_Ban mėh pekẖi▫o ṯariṇ mėh pekẖi▫o garihi pekẖi▫o uḏāsā▫e. Ḏandḏẖār jatḏẖārai pekẖi▫o varaṯ nem ṯīrthā▫e. Saṯsang pekẖi▫o man mā▫eŉ. Ūbẖ pa▫i▫āl sarab mėh pūran ras mangal guṇ gā▫e. Jog bẖekẖ sanni▫āsai pekẖi▫o jaṯ jangam kāpṛā▫e. Ŧapī ṯapīsur mun mėh pekẖi▫o nat nātik nirṯā▫e. Cẖahu mėh pekẖi▫o kẖat mėh pekẖi▫o ḏas astī simmriṯā▫e. Sabẖ mil eko ek vakẖānėh ṯa▫o kis ṯe kaha▫o ḏurā▫e. Agah agah be▫anṯ su▫āmī nah kīm kīm kīmā▫e. Jan Nānak ṯin kai bal bal jā▫ī▫ai jih gẖat pargatī▫ā▫e._ 

I have seen Akal Purkh in the woods, in the fields, in the household, and in renunciation. I have seen It as a Yogi carrying His staff, with matted hair, fasting, making vows, and visiting sacred shrines of pilgrimage. I have seen It in the Society of the Saints, within my own mind, in the sky, in the nether regions of the underworld, pervading and permeating in everything. With love and joy, I sing Its Glorious Praises. I have seen It among the hermits, the ascetics, the celibates, the wandering hermits and the wearers of patched coats. I have seen It among the men of severe self-discipline, the silent sages, the actors, dramas and dances. I have seen It in the four Vedas, in the six Shaastras, in the eighteen Puraanas and the Simritees as well. All together, they declare that there is only One Akal Purkh. So tell me, from whom is It hidden? Unfathomable and Inaccessible, It is our Infinite Akal Purkh and Master; Its Value is beyond valuation. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those, within whose heart It is revealed. 
                                                               -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1139
Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 18, 2009)

AS is often said...            ."IF you dont see GOD in ALL..you dont see GOD at ALL ". is similar.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 19, 2009)

You are correct Giani Ji.

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥ 
_Ėk krisanŉ sarab ḏėvā ḏėv ḏėvā ṯa āṯmā. Āṯmā bāsḏėvsi&shy;y jė ko jāṇai bẖė&shy;o. Nānak ṯā kā ḏās hai so&shy;ī niranjan ḏė&shy;o._
The Supreme Akal Purkh is God for all gods, beings and their Self. This Self is all pervasive, should one realize this secret. Nanak is slave of  one with this realization; in whom is manifest the immaculate God. -----Guru Angad, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 469-15

Thanks.
Virinder


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## Ozarks (Aug 7, 2009)

I believe that Sikhism has basically a panentheistic approach to theology. In that while all in Creation is contained within the Creator the Creator is grater than the sum of the parts. People are kind of like that. You are bones, blood, skin and so forth. However you are much more than that. If you were to die all of your parts would still be there, but what made them "more" would be gone. But while you are defined in part by your parts, so to is the Creator defined by the Creation. If the Creation was never created the Creator would loose all definition.


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2009)

Ozarks 

On this I agree -  _In that while all in Creation is contained within the Creator the Creator is grater than the sum of the parts._

 Creation exists in time and space. Akaal is beyond time and place,. Akaal is also Kartar Purakh who is the Doer of  Everything and who is beyond time and space.  It then stands that Akaal is in His Creation and  is also beyond Creation, beyond time and space.


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## harbansj24 (Aug 7, 2009)

Yes Ozarks ji. But his creation also does not define HIM completely. Man too can never acquire capability to define HIM completely (or even its near about). Even hypothetically, if we assume he does acquire it then that will be the end of mankind's present form!


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## AjitFlora (Aug 7, 2009)

Hello All,
Regarding the matter about the Creator and Creation being one,hope this analogy helps.

The Dance exist only because of Dancer.The dance in itself has no independent existence without dancer but it comes into existence with the dancer.As the dancer moves his/her body in which ever way, the dance happens.
You cannot separate the dance from dancer rather you come to know about the dancer through his/her dance and dance is because of dancer.Yet even when the dancer is dancing, the dancer didn't lose his/her identity. He/She is ever present even while dance is happening but once He/She stops dancing, the dance no longer happens but the dancer remains. 
Therefore, we can say that, Creator is in the Creation but as the same time it transcend the creation as well.Simultaneously. Just as we know that the dance is happening because of dancer and cannot separate dance and dancer but at the same time we cannot say that once the dance happens the dancer  no longer remains. Rather the dancer is before creation, in the creation as well would remain after is as well. 

We can say Universe is God but we cannot say God is Universe as God transcend it as well.
Being immanent in his creation is his Saguna form, with attributes and transcending the creation is his Nirgun form, without attributes.


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## Ozarks (Aug 7, 2009)

harbansj24 said:


> Yes Ozarks ji. But his creation also does not define HIM completely. Man too can never acquire capability to define HIM completely (or even its near about). Even hypothetically, if we assume he does acquire it then that will be the end of mankind's present form!



Harbansj24 Ji,
I completely agree. My thought on that is that without the Creation there would literally be no other way to attempt to define the Creator as the Creator would be the only thing that existed and would be without any point of reference. It is my belief that it was while in that state that the Creator came to the conclusion that his purpose was to create. And in doing so gave of the Creators "self" to allow creation to spring into being. With no exterior reference point for what that creation should be like all of Creation then reflects some portion or thought of the Creator. As such it would be the only way we can attempt to come to understand the vastness of the Creator is greater than all of the Creation and our attempts to define fall short because of those limitations. All our names for the Creator are based on what the Creator "did", "is" or "is not". If the Creator did not create then nothing would have been done and there would be no "is" or "is not" to attempt to compare to. There would just be the One (or perhaps better title the "All" ) and nothing else.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 7, 2009)

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

In think we are getting into just semantics by discussing as the title suggests and the question posed by our member K.Venugopal, *"Are Creator and Creation the Same in Sikhism?"*.

I would like to ask him the basis of his question. ( I am presuming that the poster is a male,please forgive me if I am wrong).

1.What kind of answers is he looking for?
2.What does he think about his own question? Does he have an opinion? 
3.How would his opinion change if someone said, no, they are not and gave his/her reasons whatever they may be?

By this question, in my opinion, we are trying to become the anthropologists on the outside without knowing which sites to dig in order to find the nuggets, where as if one opens SGGS randomly on any page, our ONLY GURU urges us to dig within where the true treasures lie.

 Our ONLY GURU gives us all the tools to become the anthropologists of the selves. Only by digging within, we will be able to discover ourselves and share the goodness which has been lying inside all of us like some dormant amber and is only re-lit with Shabad Guru. 

And once it is re-lit, the glow on the face of the creation is the proof that The Creator and the creation have become one and the same.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 7, 2009)

Ajit Flora ji

What a beautiful thing to say: The Dance exist only because of Dancer.


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2009)

surajcap ji

I have just removed your previous post out of this thread. It is a post full of links that are not connected to the main topic of the thread. It is important to explain the relevance of a link and give a short synopsis when you post a link -- otherwise the message you are sending is lost.

Also most of those links were not connected to the main topic of the thread. It would be a good idea for you to try to apply those links by opening up discussions about each of them. 

If you need help doing this we will be glad to show you how to do it. Narayanjot Kaur


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## danielle k (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm interested in exploring this concept of duality. By that do we mean that we should go beyond "is" and "is not"? Beyond Self and Other?

Would appreciate your thoughts!


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 10, 2009)

danielle k said:


> I'm interested in exploring this concept of duality. By that do we mean that we should go beyond "is" and "is not"? Beyond Self and Other?
> 
> Would appreciate your thoughts!



Danielle ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all, welcome to the forum which helps all of us open our minds. It has helped me for sure.

Could you please elaborate in your own words what you mean by "is " and "is not". You may quote Gurbani for help if you like but I would urge you to express the verses in your own words and what message you get from them to put your point across.

Hope to learn from you.


Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## simpy (Aug 11, 2009)

Panna# 1350

khaalik khalak khalak meh khaalik poor rehio srab thaanee ..........


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## spnadmin (Aug 11, 2009)

simpy said:


> Panna# 1350
> 
> khaalik khalak khalak meh khaalik poor rehio srab thaanee ..........



I think we need the entire shabad ji

ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥ 
prabhaathee ||
Prabhaatee:

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥ 
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh bandhae ||
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
 
 ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥ 
eaek noor thae sabh jag oupajiaa koun bhalae ko mandhae ||1||
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ 
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
 
 ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab thaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
 
 ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥ 
maattee eaek anaek bhaanth kar saajee saajanehaarai ||
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
 
 ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥ 
naa kashh poch maattee kae bhaanddae naa kashh poch kunbhaarai ||2||
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||
 
 ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
sabh mehi sachaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa sabh kashh hoee ||
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.
 
 ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ 
hukam pashhaanai s eaeko jaanai bandhaa keheeai soee ||3||
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||
 
 ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥ 
alahu alakh n jaaee lakhiaa gur gurr dheenaa meethaa ||
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
 
 ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥ 
kehi kabeer maeree sankaa naasee sarab niranjan ddeethaa ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3|

Seems I forgot my forum duties to remind. The shabad is from Sant Kabir ji


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## simpy (Aug 12, 2009)

Beautiful... Thanks a lot Narayanjot Ji


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## Satyaban (Aug 14, 2009)

I have had conversations about this many times and apparently what comes so naturally to me is not easily grasp by others. It comes down to dualism and non-dualism doesn't it and so much more springs from it like the world of opposites, love -hate, good -bad, right-wrong well I think you get the idea.
Please Tejwant ji don't ask me to define my terms.

Always peace
Satyaban


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 14, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I think we need the entire shabad ji
> 
> ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥
> prabhaathee ||
> ...


Sangat Ji
What is the message of this shabad?


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## Ozarks (Aug 14, 2009)

danielle k said:


> I'm interested in exploring this concept of duality. By that do we mean that we should go beyond "is" and "is not"? Beyond Self and Other?
> 
> Would appreciate your thoughts!



Danielle Ji,
Let us try to see if my perspective can be of some assistance to you.
Lets approach our understanding in an incremental manner.
Was there a time before Creation when God existed and yet nothing else did?
If so we have our starting point. Lets go into a theory that Albert Einstein has been given much created to proving with his famous E=MC2 formula. Without getting too technical or going off on semantics matter/mass/energy are all tied together and while they may change/be transmuted they may not be created or destroyed. If this is true we have our next step on the road to understanding. That step is this: where did everything come from. The answer is: from God. As in from God in a very real sense. The Creator gave of himself that Creation may exist. For if nothing else existed then there was nothing else to work with except the "energy" from the Creator. In this sense everything is made of the Creator... and yet the Creator is more than Creation as explained in my first post in this thread.
This Creator/Creation relationship is the reason why we must go beyond traditional/empirical measures of what "is" and "is not" of "self" and "other". As we are of the Creator and yet may choose to ignore that; we are both. As the Creator is a part of everything and apart from everything; He is both.

I hope this helps.


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## susan (Aug 15, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Sangat Ji
> What is the message of this shabad?


 
God is everywhere and in every life force.


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## spnadmin (Aug 15, 2009)

Nice that there is a discussion of a shabad. Discussion is relevant to shabad and shabad relevant to thread means the discussion is relevant to the thread and all iis relevant to  Sikhi.


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 15, 2009)

susan said:


> God is everywhere and in every life force.


and how does the author reach this conclusion?


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## Satyaban (Aug 18, 2009)

Namaste

I don't know a Punjabi greeting for a group so I went the way I did be cause I it is safe and not offensive to say "I recognize God in all of you."
Although it is used as a catchall greeting today.

I was attracted to this site while knowing very little about Sikhi I thought we had much in common and still believe so. 

I was raised in a Christian family my paternal grandparents were Catholics from Germany and my maternal grandmother was a Methodist but my mother is a Southern Baptist but Christians all.

I started having problems with all of that after I started school and learned some science. I became perplexed by the events claimed that flew in the face of natural law like the "great flood and the Ark", "Adam and Eve" and so on. I had no belief in a devil but I had a firm belief in a creator and wanted wanted contact. Like some others LSD opened up the possibilities of altered states of consciousness and my world changed.

I attended a lecture by Baba Ram Dass, read Autobiography of A Yogi and later joined The Self Realization Fellowship and I was on my way.

I have in the past learned much more and had great experiences. All I have learned I already knew but I had lost contact with it like having a ream of paper between a light bulb and my eyes. As I removed obstacles like sheets of paper I could see the light better. I had to dump anger, selfishness, put ego in its place along with lust, greed and attachment all of which I am still working on but I rarely get angry and it is gone in seconds.

I have no problem at all with the potter also being the clay. I have had conversation with some Muslims who have a problem with it. They looked upon God as separate from his creation and could not see the divinity in creation as I do. It is also well known many of them see things in polar opposites that is either good or hateful without much inbetween.

I believe that seen, unseen, and the spaces inbetween, from the infinitesimally small to the infinitely big is a constant manifestation of Lord Shiva, my name for the Absolute use your own, and the essence of Lord Shiva. This comes natural to me I did not need to learn this from anyone but I have to say that confirmation was reassuring.

Bhagat ji asked of Susan ji "and how does the author reach this conclusion?" which I will apply to myself although he was referring to a shabad which is light years beyond my humble offering.
As I have mentioned before perhaps elsewhere we are born with a priori knowledge which I believe is "God consciousness". It is there most are not aware of it but it whispers to us in altered states of consciousness, maybe chanting, dreaming, when in extreme pain, in our mythologies but there are those who go there in samadhi everyday. Susan ji said "God is everywhere and in every life force" which I would amend to read "God is everywhere and God is the life force."

Again I say this is what I believe I have no empirical evidence and am not trying to influence anyone else. I love speaking about it but not debating or arguing because it is faith and all faiths deserve respect. After all aren't we all on a spiritual path?

Always Peace
Satyaban


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## susan (Aug 19, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> and how does the author reach this conclusion?


 
Bahgat Ji I  cannot answer this question. My answer was merely my own understanding. Sant Kabir Ji's knowledge on God surpasses mine by many lifetimes. 
Alot of what I understand in Gurbani I am not able to express to others. I consider this my ignorance and pray to Almighty that I may be blessed one day with the knowledge to further explain and discuss my understanding.
Perhaps someone with more Gian (spiritual knowledge) from this forum could answer this one.

Bhull Chuuk Maaf Karna


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 19, 2009)

susan said:


> Bahgat Ji I cannot answer this question. My answer was merely my own understanding. Sant Kabir Ji's knowledge on God surpasses mine by many lifetimes.
> Alot of what I understand in Gurbani I am not able to express to others. I consider this my ignorance and pray to Almighty that I may be blessed one day with the knowledge to further explain and discuss my understanding.
> Perhaps someone with more Gian (spiritual knowledge) from this forum could answer this one.
> 
> Bhull Chuuk Maaf Karna


Susan ji and Satyaban ji thank you for your replies.

History shows us that the knowledge of man is growing day by day, and so I believe that it is possible for one to gain more knowledge than the historical celebrities that we all come to admire, with all due respect. people like Bhagat Kabir ji or even Guru Nanak Dev Ji... 

About Bhagat Kabir's shabad, I dont think the message was "God is everywhere and in every life force." I think the message was put forth in the form of a question:So who is good, and who is bad?
*It has to do with the fear of the unknown!*
The "anxiety and fear" that Kabir Sahib mentions later on are referring to the feelings one gets when one thinks about the "other guy" or "guy from different religion". Its the fear of the unknown. We usually label the unknown as something BAD and evil! 
The idea is that the unknown "clay" or person contains the very familiar God, so "the other" is not unknown anymore but much familiar like the God inside. 
and so Kabir goes on that once you "see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere", your "anxiety and fear have [will be] been taken away".
He asks that if the Unknown "welled up" from the same light as you did, is it really bad?

Back then people did not know how the world came to be. This was( and still is in many parts of the world) the prevalent creation myth of the time: First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
We know better! 
Kabir ji is also referring to the Creator and the Creation arguements that we now know to be false: "It looks designed therefore it must be designed, by a Designer." Kabir ji used figure of speech and calls the Designer, Potter; and the design, clay materials.


"Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation"
- Follows up with the creation myth, and the only reason I can see why it's there, is to make you understand that you should not be afraid of the unknown, "the other". 
Interpreting it literally, would be taking it as a fact, which it is clearly not.


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## Ozarks (Aug 20, 2009)

BhagatSingh Ji,
I am afraid that I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the shabad. 

_"About Bhagat Kabir's shabad, I dont think the message was "God is everywhere and in every life force." I think the message was put forth in the form of a question:So who is good, and who is bad?
_ *It has to do with the fear of the unknown!"

*With this quote:
ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ 
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab thaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

I believe the point is that all things are related through Creator and tied to the Will of God.

_"Back then people did not know how the world came to be. This was( and still is in many parts of the world) the prevalent creation myth of the time: First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
We know better!"_

Allow me, if you will, to share with you my view on this passage which is similar to Genesis in the Bible. 

Imagine you are in the universe before creation takes place. Off in the distance you may "see" a presence. It may look like a star. (This being in reference to the Creator being self illuminating.) This presence is the one that will be called the Creator. In an otherwise empty universe. Then a mighty flash and a wave of light is thrown out of the star like an exploding supernova. That wave is energy, as all light is is a visible wave length of energy. That energy coalesces and forms pools of energy which become matter, which becomes the physical universe. Within this universe resides the framework of the Creators Will for the Creation. (the Asatru look at that like Orlog - the "original law" laid at the foundation of the universe) That framework may be observed and are often called "Natural Laws". Through these "laws" the Will of the Creator for the Creation takes place in its own time and a reasonable predictable manner. 

Of course what I describe is what scientists call the Big Band. However it is not devoid of Spirituality when viewed with the heart of a seeker.


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## Satyaban (Aug 20, 2009)

Ozarks ji

I have to mention my take on the moment of creation. I don't think there was an empty "universe", rather than say there was nothing I will say there was only a singularity which contained even the vastness of space or the universe. Was this God yes but I believe there are two other astral worlds and that is God also.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Ozarks (Aug 20, 2009)

Namaste Satyaban ji,

I too don't believe the universe was empty. I believe that there was the Emptiness (non-being) and God. At some point God (I am attempting to use a generic term there.) came to the conclusion that "more" was necessary. (I have some potentially interesting ideas as to why this conclusion was reached if you would like to plumb those depths sometime.) That was when God created the universe from the only thing that existed at that time and that was God. The energy of God expanded out and from that energy the universe was formed. It was at this moment of creation, at the moment when that awesome amount of power/energy was released upon the Emptiness that dimensions were created (or rather fractured from the original). This is where the astral worlds/planes/dimensions reside.


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## Satyaban (Aug 20, 2009)

Ozark ji

I don't believe there was emptiness either, everything was in the singularity. It is impossible to imagine that is to picture in the mind and almost impossible to consider. All of that mass the size of a dot on a piece of paper that reached the point of critical mass.

It is my belief and great saints and gurus have said that Lord Siva, or God your choice it does not matter to me, has created and absorbed thousands of universes and they all may not have been the same.

I am interested in how you reached your conclusion.

Om shanti shanti
Satyaban


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2009)

Ozarks said:


> BhagatSingh Ji,
> I am afraid that I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the shabad.
> 
> _"About Bhagat Kabir's shabad, I dont think the message was "God is everywhere and in every life force." I think the message was put forth in the form of a question:So who is good, and who is bad?_
> ...


That's what it says and I agree with you. But is it that the message?
No, its a method
AS I have previously stated:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...r-and-creation-same-sikhism-3.html#post109568





Ozarks said:


> _"Back then people did not know how the world came to be. This was( and still is in many parts of the world) the prevalent creation myth of the time: First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings._
> _We know better!"_
> 
> _Allow me, if you will, to share with you my view on this passage which is similar to Genesis in the Bible. _


 


> Imagine you are in the universe before creation takes place.


Why do you say there was a creation??



> Off in the distance you may "see" a presence. It may look like a star. (This being in reference to the Creator being self illuminating.)


So God is a star? or star like thing?



> This presence is the one that will be called the Creator. In an otherwise empty universe. Then a mighty flash and a wave of light is thrown out of the star like an exploding supernova. That wave is energy, as all light is is a visible wave length of energy. That energy coalesces and forms pools of energy which become matter, which becomes the physical universe. Within this universe resides the framework of the Creators Will for the Creation. (the Asatru look at that like Orlog - the "original law" laid at the foundation of the universe) That framework may be observed and are often called "Natural Laws". Through these "laws" the Will of the Creator for the Creation takes place in its own time and a reasonable predictable manner.
> 
> Of course what I describe is what scientists call the Big Band. However it is not devoid of Spirituality when viewed with the heart of a seeker.


I dont know how the bible came to such conclusions and where these conclusions are mentioned, please provide references.

Here's info on Big Bang: Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (1 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (2 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (3 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (4 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (5 of 5)


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## harbansj24 (Aug 21, 2009)

Satyabanji,

I will repeat what I had said earlier,  that man can never acquire capability to get to the ultimate truth and define HIM completely (or even its near about). Even hypothetically, if we assume he does acquire it then that will be the end of mankind's present form!

Yes of co{censored} we should keep trying and in the process we will continue  discover,  invent and progress but however much man may continue, he obviously cannot hit the infinite!


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## Satyaban (Aug 21, 2009)

harbansj24 ji

I don't think you will get a debate from me on that. What is beyond our conception is just that.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Ozarks (Aug 21, 2009)

Satyaban Ji,

I must admit to having a hard time with a single dimensional point of creation. That would seem to mean that at the point of creation God "pulled away" in order to create the space/dimension in which Creation would exist in. The reason why I say this is that while the Will of God is pervasive throughout Creation there would be no room for freedom-of-will if some level of "non-god" delineation did not exist.

BhagatSingh Ji,
_
"Why do you say there was a creation??"_
I feel that Creation is fairly self-evident. While I can understand the theory behind and accidental universe the level of diversity tends to be more artistic than accident.

_"So God is a star? or star like thing?"_
My poor attempt at allegory I'm afraid. I am just address the concepts of 'God being self illuminating' and the absence of God being a darkness.

_"I dont know how the bible came to such conclusions and where these conclusions are mentioned, please provide references."_
I feel I must not of made myself clear. I apologies for that. No, the part of the Bible (Genesis chapter 1) to which I was referring was that God created light and then Creation. That paralleling the quote:

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥ 
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh bandhae ||
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

I apologize for the confusion.

*http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/harbansj24.html*


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## Satyaban (Aug 21, 2009)

Ozarks ji

My previous comments on creation are pertinent to the current universe and perhaps previous ones but not the first. It has been said that Lord Shiva created the universe as a sort of game where he would hide himself deep in the hearts of creation and have his sentient being find him. It does kinda put our lives in perspective compared to the immensity of the universe and rebirth.

Because we live in this temporal world of time and space we can not apply our senses to anything else. All our senses do is confirm this temporal world, but we can consider that the atman resides somewhere after shedding one physical body and before picking up another. I do not believe it to be a place but a state of being on another plane.

Anyway this is what I think and believe. I am not trying to influence anyone or anything like that.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2009)

Satyaban ji

I do not see why you should have to be on the defensive in the conversation at all. :yes:


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## Satyaban (Aug 21, 2009)

NK ji (I hope that is OK)

Are you speaking about my disclaimer? I threw that in as an afterthought. I like to speak about such matters but not really debate them as often happened on a Muslim web site where I was a member with over 8,000 post before being banned for 25 years.
I know that wouldn't happen here but it doesn't hurt to be clear in intent.

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2009)

25 years :wink: sounds kind of harsh. what did you say?:shifty:


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## Satyaban (Aug 21, 2009)

Sister

It don't think it was one post but a combination of factors. Shiachat is very Iran-centric and the dominating while not bring wahhabis or salafis believe Iran can do no wrong. Along with that comes no tolerance for criticism of Khamenei and near complete excuse making for Ahmadinejad. Most often they said that Ahmad was poorly translated like they were the only people who understood Farsi. Furthermore every piece of news coverage that appears is untrue and a part of a conspiracy of Iran's enemies which is almost everyone but usually the Israelis and CIA or MKO or Free Masons or USA or UK and it goes on. The most astonishing thing is most of these people with a fire in their bellies live in the West and none in Iran. Of course I pointed this out many times over 5 years.

As far as my being banned for what amounts to life:rofl!!:what I think broke the camels back is my statements like "I can't understand how people who believe in all of these conspiracy theories can survive and live day too day" meaning they are incredibly stupid. I still have a low tolerance of absurdity. I must add that there are also many people that I liked at Shiachat and I still go there as a visitor when I want to be frustrated and astonished. You should pay a visit to their more political forums.

I have joined another Shia site that is very liberal and progressive.

Peace to you and your family
Satyaban


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## Ozarks (Aug 21, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Anyway this is what I think and believe. I am not trying to influence anyone or anything like that.



Satyaban Ji,

It is no problem. I enjoy hearing others views. One of the primary reasons I believe that God created us is so He/we can learn from perspectives not His/our own.
That line of thought stems from one of the questions I sought to understand when I first tried to understand the big "whys". That question is "Why was everything created". My conclusion was to answer a question God could not. That question was "What was it like not to be God". That boils down to a question of self/ego. That is the principal reason I believe that we come closer to God by attempting to relinquish ego. Oddly enough letting go of this illusion allows us to reach out to the Source of all Creation. (That's the short version anyway. )
Again I enjoy hearing (and reading) other thoughts/views.

May the light of the Creator illuminate your path.


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## satnamwaheguru (Aug 23, 2009)

Creator and created are one only in Sikhism . The creator  resides in all his creation , the beings , the vegetation etc in every iota of it . he permeates every nook and corner of his creation and watches his beings , looks after them and is observant of  the worldly play that he has created . The creator and his  creation are the one .


*Commercial spam deleted. Please do not repeat this performance. *


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## Satyaban (Aug 23, 2009)

Satnamwaheguru ji

You have said something that puzzles me. You have said "Creator and created are one only in Sikhism", I can only assume that you have not read my previous post. More probably I have misunderstood you.

Peace
Satyaban

​ 
Creator and created are one only in Sikhism "​


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2011)

THE concept that CREATOR and CREATION are one in Sikhism is a bit confusing unless we specifically  define the CREATOR and CREATION.
If we consider the UNIVERSE as CREATION then CREATOR and CREATION are certainly different although CREATOR is present within every CREATION.
This is So because all creations are under the influence of TRINITY whereas CREATOR is absolutely free from the influence of TRINITY.

A point of significance is that we generally say that the CREATOR is FORMLESS.This is actually not so. The CREATOR as envisaged in Gurbaani  has its specific form too.
This is just a view which may be confirmed carefully from Gurbaani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member15 (May 27, 2012)

*Re: Introducing Myself*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> K.Venugopal1 JI
> 
> First of all may I welcome you to SPN. I did the same as you. Googled a subject and navigated to the forum, and never left.
> 
> ...


 

Narayanjot my dear sister mundahug

I am not sure if you still frequent SPN, however I just wanted to say that I loved your above post, as the metaphor of the "fish in the sea" is exactly the same one used by Catholic mystics such as Saint Augustine of Hippo, Saint Ephrem the Syrian  and Saint Mechthild of Magdeburg. 

For example, this beautiful poem by Saint Ephrem the Syrian: 


"...There is One Being, who knows Himself and sees Himself.
He dwells in Himself,
And from Himself sets forth.
Glory to His Name.
This is a Being who by His own will is in every place,
Who is invisible and visible,
Manifest and secret.
He is above and below. 

Mingling and condescending by His grace among the lower;
Loftier and more exalted, as befits His glory, than the higher.
The swift cannot exceed His swiftness,
Nor the slow outlast His patience. 

He is before all and after all,
And in the midst of all.
He is like the sea,
In that all creation moves in Him.
As the waters beset the fish in all their movements,
The Creator is clad with everything which is made,
Both great and small.
And as the fish are hidden in the water,
There is hidden in God height and depth,
Far and near,
And the inhabitants thereof.
And as the water meets the fishes everywhere it goes,
So God meets everyone who walks.
And as the water touches the fish at every turn it makes,
God accompanies and sees every man in all his deeds. 

Men cannot move the earth which is their chariot,
Neither does anyone go far from the Just One who is his associate.
The Good One is united to the body,
And light to the eyes.
A man is not able to flee from his soul,
For it is with him.
Nor is a man hid from the Good,
For He besets him.
As the water surrounds the fish and it feels it,
So also do all natures feel God. 

He is diffused through the air,
And with thy breath enters into thy midst.
He is mingled with the light,
And enters, when thou seest, into thy eyes.
He is mingled with thy spirit,
And examines thee from within, as to what thou art.
In thy soul He dwells,
And nothing which is in thy heart is hid from Him.
As the mind precedes the body in every place,
So He examines thy soul before thou dost examine it.
And as the thought greatly precedes the deed,
So His thought knows beforehand what thou wilt plan. 

Compared with His impalpability,
Thy soul is body and thy spirit flesh.
Soul of thy soul,
Spirit of thy spirit,
Is He who created thee,
Far from all,
And mingled with all,
And manifest above all,
A great wonder and a hidden marvel unfathomable.
He is the Being concerning whose essence no man is able to explain.
This is the Power whose depth is inexpressible.
Among things seen and among things hidden
There is none to be compared to Him.
This is He who created and formed from nothing
Everything which is..." 

*- Saint Ephrem the Syrian (ca. 306 – 373), Catholic mystic, Church Father and Doctor of the Church*


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