# God Being Nirgun And Sargun



## vsgrewal48895 (May 7, 2009)

*God Being Nirgun and Sargun*​ 
The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature). God has said to possess no qualities when It has drawn the world within Itself. It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation. Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity. Sikh philosophy explains the metaphysical force/ God’sWill responsible for the creation and its overall justifiable cause and action in a responsible and justified manner. It further explains that Guru and Gnosis are required to purify the conscience of the man to fit it for the companionship of the Eternal with in and thus leading to transcendental uplift.

AGGS explains the situations clearly that an individual does not have to live in a land of fantasy. Moral life cannot be lived in aloofness. Tranquility that comes through understanding and intellectual grasp of Truth is mental. God as such is indefinable but the best way it could be described is in the Mool Manter of Japji of Guru Nanak. He describes in Sidh Gost that God assumed immaculate form from formless in Mother Nature with attributes. Guru Arjan describes it beautifully in Ragas Asa and Gauri;

ਆਪੇ ਪੇਡੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਸਾਖ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਖੇਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਰਾਖ ॥੧॥ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਪੇਖਉ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੋਈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਸੋਈ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਸਰਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਥਾਪੈ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਦੁਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੈ ਕੀਨੋ ਠਾਉ ॥੩॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਖੋਇਆ ॥ ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਨੈਨ ਅਲੋਇਆ ॥੪॥੧੭॥੬੮॥

_Āpe ped bisthārī sākẖ. Apnī kẖeṯī āpe rākẖ. ||1|| Jaṯ kaṯ pekẖa▫o ekai ohī. Gẖat gẖat anṯar āpe so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. Āpe sūr kiraṇ bisthār. So▫ī gupaṯ so▫ī ākār. ||2|| Sarguṇ nirguṇ thāpai nā▫o. Ḏuh mil ekai kīno ṯẖā▫o. ||3|| Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram bẖa▫o kẖo▫i▫ā. Anaḏ rūp sabẖ nain alo▫i▫ā. ||4||17||68||_

Akal Purkh Itself is the tree, and the branches extending out, and preserves Its own crop. ||1|| wherever I look, I see that One Akal Purkh alone. Deep within each and every heart, It Itself is contained. ||1||Pause|| It Itself is the sun, and the rays emanating from it. It is concealed and revealed too. ||2|| It is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes. Both converge onto Its single point. ||3|| Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt and fear. With my eyes, I perceive the Akal Purkh, the embodiment of bliss, to be everywhere. ||4||17||68|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 387-18

ਬਾਰਨੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਨੈ ਲਖ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ ਨਾਮੋ ਹੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਏਕ ॥ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਟੇਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਬਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੂੰ ਧਨੀ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੂੰ ਸਰਗੁਨੀ ॥੨॥ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਤੁਮ ਰਖੇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਕੋ ਲਖੇ ॥੩॥ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੁਜਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਕੀਆ ਤੁਹੀ ਤਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੫॥੧੪੩॥

_Bārnai balihārnai lakẖ barī▫ā. Nāmo ho nām sāhib ko parān aḏẖrī▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Karan karāvan ṯuhī ek. Jī▫a janṯ kī ṯuhī tek. ||1|| Rāj joban parabẖ ṯūŉ ḏẖanī. Ŧūŉ nirgun ṯūŉ sargunī. ||2|| Īhā ūhā ṯum rakẖe. Gur kirpā ṯe ko lakẖe. ||3|| Anṯarjāmī parabẖ sujān. Nānak ṯakī▫ā ṯuhī ṯāṇ. ||4||5||143|_

I am a sacrifice, dedicated hundreds of thousands of times, to my Akal Purkh and Master. Its Name alone, is the Support of the breath of life. ||1||Pause||You alone are the Doer, the Cause of causes.You are the Support of all beings and creatures. ||1|| O God, You are my power, authority and youth.You are absolute, without attributes, and also related, with the most sublime attributes. ||2|| Here and hereafter, You are my Savior and Protector. By Guru's Grace, some understand You. ||3|| God is All-knowing, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.You are Nanak's strength and support. ||4||5||143|| 
-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page 211-7

Sikhs strictly believe that there is One God, who is Nirgun (transcendent) and Sargun (immanent), and pervades in Its creation, It is omnipresent, but can never be incarnate. The principal Sikh belief puts stress upon one's actions rather than people's religious labels. While being absolute and beyond human comprehension, God can be realized and experienced through contemplation, deliberation, reflection, and service. The object of a Sikh way of life is to develop God consciousness and ultimately make him/her a candidate to receive God’s grace. Human life presents the opportunity to do so through truthful living and selfless service in the context of a house holder’s life.

*Bibliography;*

1. Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali Sidh Gost, AGGS, Page, 940-14
2. Guru Arjan, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 98-2
3. Guru Arjan, Gauri Sukhmani, AGGS, Page, 287-11
4. Guru Arjan, Raag Gond, AGGS, Page, 862-6
5. Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 827-16
6. Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 803-12
7. Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-4
8. Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 291-3
9. Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 250-11&13
10. Guru Arjan, Gauri Sukhmani, AGGS, Page, 290-16
11. Bhagat Kabir, Raag Gauri Bairagan, AGGS, Page, 333-6
12. Bhagat Ravidas, Raag Gauri Bairagan, AGGS, Page, 346-17

Virinder S.Grewal


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## spnadmin (May 7, 2009)

Why don't we try to understand the terms "nirgun" and "sargun" in depth? That would be helpful. For the sake of this discussion, let me begin by saying that this statement may be overly simple:

_The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature)._  Nirgun may mean more than that. Sargun may also mean more than that. 

I confess, I don't understand what this means. _It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation._ When did this idea take birth? it is very theoretical, and my mind may be too cunning to help itself out of its own confusion. 


And in this statement, 
_Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity._ If God is without attributes, then how can God take form of anything. Isn't negativity an attribute. Please explain where my intellect is lacking. 


::



_It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation. _


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 7, 2009)

Dear Aad Ji,

The answers to your questions are fully described by Gurus Nanak and Arjan in the mode of Maru, AGGS, Page, 1035 onwards to 1037. Here are few;

History of Creation by Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1035, 1036 & 1037;

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ॥ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥ਖਾਣੀ ਨ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਉਣ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ਖੰਡ ਪਤਾਲ ਸਪਤ ਨਹੀ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਦੀ ਨ ਨੀਰੁ ਵਹਾਇਦਾ ॥ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥ਦੋਜਕੁ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਖੈ ਕਾਲਾ ॥ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਇਦਾ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ॥ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ॥ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਨਮਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਬਨਵਾਸੀ ॥ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ ॥ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਭੇਖੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਥੁ ਕਹਾਇਦਾ ॥ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਨਾ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਨਾ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਲਸੀ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਨ ਗਊ ਗੋੁਆਲਾ ॥ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਇਦਾ ॥ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਖੀ ॥ਜਾਤਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੀਸੈ ਆਖੀ ॥ਮਮਤਾ ਜਾਲੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਥੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਿਸੈ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ॥ਨਿੰਦੁ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਉ ਨ ਜਿੰਦੋ ॥ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਨਾ ਮਾਛਿੰਦੋ ॥ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕੁਲ ਓਪਤਿ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਗਣਤ ਗਣਾਇਦਾ ॥ਵਰਨ ਭੇਖ ਨਹੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ॥ਦੇਉ ਨ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਗਊ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ॥ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਨਹੀ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਦਾ ॥ਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੁਲਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਾਜੀ ॥ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸੇਖੁ ਮਸਾਇਕੁ ਹਾਜੀ ॥ਰਈਅਤਿ ਰਾਉ ਨ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਹਣੁ ਕਹਾਇਦਾ ॥ਭਾਉ ਨ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਾ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ॥ਸਾਜਨੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਕਤੀ ॥ਆਪੇ ਸਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਸਾਚੇ ਏਹੋ ਭਾਇਦਾ ॥ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ॥ਪਾਠ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਉਦੈ ਨਹੀ ਆਸਤ ॥ਕਹਤਾ ਬਕਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਇਦਾ ॥ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ਬਾਝੁ ਕਲਾ ਆਡਾਣੁ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇਦਾ ॥ਵਿਰਲੇ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਅਰੰਭੇ ਗੁਪਤਹੁ ਪਰਗਟੀ ਆਇਦਾ ॥ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਈ ॥ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੀ ਬਿਸਮ ਭਏ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇਦਾ ॥

_Arbaḏ narbaḏ ḏẖunḏẖūkārā. Ḏẖaraṇ na gagnā hukam apārā. Nā ḏin rain na cẖanḏ na sūraj sunn samāḏẖ lagā¬iḏā. Kẖāṇī na baṇī pa¬uṇ na pāṇī. Opaṯ kẖapaṯ na āvaṇ jāṇī. Kẖand paṯāl sapaṯ nahī sāgar naḏī na nīr vahā¬iḏā. Nā ṯaḏ surag macẖẖ pa¬i¬ālā. Ḏojak bẖisaṯ nahī kẖai kālā. Narak surag nahī jamaṇ marṇā nā ko ā¬ė na jā¬iḏā. Barahmā bisan mahės na ko¬ī. Avar na ḏīsai ėko so¬ī. Nār purakẖ nahī jāṯ na janmā nā ko ḏukẖ sukẖ pā¬iḏā. Nā ṯaḏ jaṯī saṯī banvāsī. Nā ṯaḏ siḏẖ sāḏẖik sukẖvāsī. Jogī jangam bẖėkẖ na ko¬ī nā ko nāth kahā¬iḏā. Jap ṯap sanjam nā baraṯ pūjā. Nā ko ākẖ vakẖāṇai ḏūjā. Āpė āp upā¬ė vigsai āpė kīmaṯ pā¬iḏā. Nā sucẖ sanjam ṯulsī mālā. Gopī kān na ga¬ū go¬ālā. Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na ko¬ī nā ko vans vajā¬iḏā. Karam ḏẖaram nahī mā¬i¬ā mākẖī. Jāṯ janam nahī ḏīsai ākẖī. Mamṯā jāl kāl nahī māthai nā ko kisai ḏẖi¬ā¬iḏā. Ninḏ binḏ nahī jī¬o na jinḏo. Nā ṯaḏ gorakẖ nā mācẖẖinḏo. Nā ṯaḏ gi¬ān ḏẖi¬ān kul opaṯ nā ko gaṇaṯ gaṇā¬iḏā. varan bẖėkẖ nahī barahmaṇ kẖaṯrī. Ḏė¬o na ḏėhurā ga¬ū gā¬iṯarī. Hom jag nahī ṯirath nāvaṇ nā ko pūjā lā¬iḏā. Nā ko mulā nā ko kājī. Nā ko sėkẖ masā¬ik hājī. Ra¬ī¬aṯ rā¬o na ha¬umai ḏunī¬ā nā ko kahaṇ kahā¬iḏā. Bẖā¬o na bẖagṯī nā siv sakṯī. Sājan mīṯ binḏ nahī rakṯī. Āpė sāhu āpė vaṇjārā sācẖė ėho bẖā¬iḏā. Bėḏ kaṯėb na simriṯ sāsaṯ. Pāṯẖ purāṇ uḏai nahī āsaṯ. Kahṯā bakṯā āp agocẖar āpė alakẖ lakẖā¬iḏā. Jā ṯis bẖāṇā ṯā jagaṯ upā¬i¬ā. Bājẖ kalā ādāṇ rahā¬i¬ā. Barahmā bisan mahės upā¬ė mā¬i¬ā moh vaḏẖā¬iḏā. virlė ka¬o gur sabaḏ suṇā¬i¬ā. Kar kar ḏėkẖai hukam sabā¬i¬ā. Kẖand barahmand pāṯāl arambẖė gupṯahu pargatī ā¬iḏā. Ŧā kā anṯ na jāṇai ko¬ī. Pūrė gur ṯė sojẖī ho¬ī. Nānak sāch ratė bismādī bisam bha¬ė gun gā¬idā._

For endless eons, there was only utter darkness. There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of Its Will/Order. There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat in primal, profound Samaadhi. There were no sources of creation or powers of speech, no air or water. There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going. There were no continents, nether regions, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. There were no heavenly realms, earth or nether regions of the underworld. There was no heaven or hell, no death or time. There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going in reincarnation. There was no Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva. No one was seen, except the One Akal Purkh. There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. There were no people of celibacy or charity; no one lived in the forests. There were no Siddhas or seekers, no one living in peace. There were no Yogis, no wandering pilgrims, no religious robes; no one called himself the master. There was no chanting or meditation, no self-discipline, fasting or worship. No one spoke or talked in duality. God created Itself, and rejoiced; and evaluates Itself. There was no purification, no self-restraint, and no malas of basil seeds. There were no Gopis, no Krishna, no cows or cowherds. There were no tantras, no mantras and no hypocrisy; no one played the flute. There was no karma, no Dharma, no buzzing fly of Maya. Social class and birth were not seen with any eyes. There was no noose of attachment, no death inscribed upon the forehead; no one meditated on anything. There was no slander, no seed, no soul and no life. There was no Gorakh and no Maachhindra. There was no spiritual wisdom or meditation, no ancestry or creation, no reckoning of accounts. There were no castes or social classes, no religious robes, no Brahmin or Kh'shaatriya. There were no demi-gods or temples, no cows or Gaayatri prayer. There were no burnt offerings, no ceremonial feasts, no cleansing rituals at sacred shrines of pilgrimage; no one worshipped in adoration. There was no Mullah, there was no Qazis. There was no Sheikh, or pilgrims to Mecca. There was no king or subjects, and no worldly egotism; no one spoke of himself. There was no love or devotion, no Shiva or Shakti - no energy or matter. There were no friends or companions, no semen or blood. God Itself is the banker, and the merchant. Such is the Pleasure of the Will of the True Akal Purkh. There were no Vedas, or other scriptures, no Simritees or Shaastras. There was no recitation of the Puraanas, no sunrise or sunset. The Unfathomable God Itself was the speaker and the preacher; the unseen God Itself saw everything. 
When Akal Purkh so willed, It created the world. Without any supporting power, God sustained the universe, and created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; God fostered enticement and attachment to Maya. How rare is that person who listens to the Word of the Guru's Sabd. God created the creation, and watches over it; the Will of Its Command is over all. God formed the planets, solar systems and nether regions, and brought what was hidden to manifestation. No one knows Its limits. This understanding comes from the Perfect Guru. O, Nanak, those who are attuned to the Truth is wonderstruck; singing Akal Purkh’s Glorious Praises, and is filled with wonder. 

ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ਸਾਚਾ ਥਾਨੁ ਕੀਓ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥ਪਉਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧਨੁ ਕਾਇਆ ਕੋਟੁ ਰਚਾਇਦਾ ॥ਨਉ ਘਰ ਥਾਪੇ ਥਾਪਣਹਾਰੈ ॥ਦਸਵੈ ਵਾਸਾ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰੈ ॥ਸਾਇਰ ਸਪਤ ਭਰੇ ਜਲਿ ਨਿਰਮਲਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਾਇਦਾ ॥ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਦੀਪਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ॥ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਸਚੇ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਗੜ ਮਹਿ ਹਾਟ ਪਟਣ ਵਾਪਾਰਾ ॥ਪੂਰੈ ਤੋਲਿ ਤੋਲੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ॥ਆਪੇ ਰਤਨੁ ਵਿਸਾਹੇ ਲੇਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਪਾਵਣਹਾਰੈ ॥ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹ ਪੂਰੇ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ॥ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਲੇ ਆਪੇ ਰਹਿਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਇਦਾ ॥ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ॥ਜਮ ਜੰਦਾਰੁ ਨ ਮਾਰੈ ਫੇਟੈ ॥ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਬਿਗਾਸੀ ਆਪੇ ਬਿਗਸਿ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ॥ਆਪੇ ਵਰਖੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰਾ ॥ਰਤਨ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਲਾਲ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਲਹੈ ਅਮੋਲੋ ॥ਕਬ ਹੀ ਨ ਘਾਟਸਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਤੋਲੋ ॥ਸਚੇ ਕਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਚੋ ਸਉਦਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸਚਾ ਸਉਦਾ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਕੋ ਪਾਏ ॥ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਮਾਨੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਮਾਇਦਾ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਆਇਆ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦੀਸੈ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਕਲਾ ਰਹਾਇਦਾ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਧਉਲ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੰ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਪਉਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਗੈਣਾਰੰ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਖੇਲ ਖੇਲਾਇਦਾ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਆਡਾਣੇ ਆਗਾਸੀ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਜਲ ਥਲ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਸਾਸ ਗਿਰਾਸ ਸਦਾ ਫੁਨਿ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਦਾ ॥ਹੁਕਮਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰਾ ॥ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਅਗਣਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ਮਾਨੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੈਝੈ ਸਾਚਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਦਾ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਜੁਗ ਛਤੀਹ ਗੁਦਾਰੇ ॥ਹੁਕਮੇ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਬਖਸੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ਕਾਇਆ ਕੋਟੁ ਗੜੈ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ਨੇਬ ਖਵਾਸ ਭਲਾ ਦਰਵਾਜਾ ॥ਮਿਥਿਆ ਲੋਭੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਲਬਿ ਪਾਪਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਨਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਰੀ ॥ਜਤੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਸਰਣਿ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਪਤਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥

_Āpė āp upā¬ė nirālā. Sācẖā thān kī¬o ḏa¬i¬ālā. Pa¬uṇ pāṇī agnī kā banḏẖan kā¬i¬ā kot racẖā¬iḏā. Na¬o gẖar thāpė thāpaṇhārai. Ḏasvai vāsā alakẖ apārai. Sā¬ir sapaṯ bẖarė jal nirmal gurmukẖ mail na lā¬iḏā. Rav sas ḏīpak joṯ sabā¬ī. Āpė kar vėkẖai vadi¬ā¬ī. Joṯ sarūp saḏā sukẖ¬ḏāṯa sacẖė sobẖā pā¬iḏā. Gaṛ meh hāt pataṇ vāpārā. Pūrai ṯol ṯolai vaṇjārā. Āpė raṯan visāhė lėvai āpė kīmaṯ pā¬iḏā. Kīmaṯ pā¬ī pāvaṇhārai. vėparvāh pūrė bẖandārai. Sarab kalā lė āpė rahi¬ā gurmukẖ kisai bujẖā¬iḏā. Naḏar karė pūrā gur bẖėtai. Jam janḏār na mārai fėtai. Ji¬o jal anṯar kamal bigāsī āpė bigas ḏẖi¬ā¬iḏā. Āpė varkẖai amriṯ ḏẖārā. Raṯan javėhar lāl apārā. Saṯgur milai ṯa pūrā pā¬ī¬ai parėm paḏārath pā¬iḏā. Parėm paḏārath lahai amolo. Kab hī na gẖātas pūrā ṯolo. Sacẖė kā vāpārī hovai sacẖo sa¬uḏā pā¬iḏā. Sacẖā sa¬uḏā virlā ko pā¬ė. Pūrā saṯgur milai milā¬ė. Gurmukẖ ho¬ė so hukam pacẖẖāṇai mānai hukam samā¬iḏā. Hukmė ā¬i¬ā hukam samā¬i¬ā. Hukmė ḏīsai jagaṯ upā¬i¬ā. Hukmė surag macẖẖ pa¬i¬ālā hukmė kalā rahā¬iḏā. Hukmė ḏẖarṯī ḏẖa¬ul sir bẖāraŉ. Hukmė pa¬uṇ pāṇī gaiṇāraŉ. Hukmė siv sakṯī gẖar vāsā hukmė kẖėl kẖėlā¬iḏā. Hukmė ādāṇė āgāsī. Hukmė jal thal ṯaribẖavaṇ vāsī. Hukmė sās girās saḏā fun hukmė ḏėkẖ ḏikẖā¬iḏā. Hukam upā¬ė ḏas a¬uṯārā. Ḏėv ḏānav agṇaṯ apārā. Mānai hukam so ḏargeh paijẖai sācẖ milā¬ė samā¬iḏā. Hukmė jug cẖẖaṯīh guḏārė. Hukmė siḏẖ sāḏẖik vīcẖārė. Āp nāth nathīŉ sabẖ jā kī bakẖsė mukaṯ karā¬iḏā. Kā¬i¬ā kot gaṛai meh rājā. Nėb kẖavās bẖalā ḏarvājā. Mithi¬ā lobẖ nāhī gẖar vāsā lab pāp pacẖẖuṯā¬iḏā. Saṯ sanṯokẖ nagar meh kārī. Jaṯ saṯ sanjam saraṇ murārī. Nānak sahj milai jagjīvan gur sabḏī paṯ pā¬iḏā._

God Itself created the creation, remaining unattached. The Merciful Creator has established Its True Home. Binding together air, water and fire, Akal Purkh created the fortress of the body. The Creator established the nine gates. In the Tenth Gate, is the dwelling of the infinite, unseen Akal Purkh? The seven seas are overflowing with the Ambrosial Water; the Gurmukhs are not stained with filth. The lamps of the sun and the moon fill all with light. Creating them, It beholds Its own glorious greatness. The Giver of peace is forever the embodiment of Light; from the True Akal Purkh, glory is obtained. Within the fortress are the stores and markets; the business is transacted there. The Supreme Merchant weighs with the perfect weights. God Itself buys the jewel, and appraises its value. The Independent Creator is overflowing with treasures and holds all powers, God is all-pervading; how few are those who, as Gurmukh, understand this. When Lord bestows Its Glance of Grace, one meets the Perfect Guru and the tyrannical Messenger of Death cannot strike him then. He blossoms forth like the lotus flower in the water; he blossoms forth in joyful meditation. Akal Purkh Itself rains down the Ambrosial Stream of jewels, diamonds, and rubies of priceless value. When they meet the True Guru, then they find the Akal Purkh; they obtain the treasure of Love. Whoever receives the priceless treasure of Love -his weight never decreases; he has perfect weight. The trader of Truth becomes true, and obtains the merchandise. How rare are those who obtain the true merchandise. Meeting the Perfect True Guru, one meets with the Lord. One who becomes Gurmukh realizes the Hukam of God’s command; surrendering to Its Command, one merges in the It. By Akal Purkh’s Command we come, and by Its command we merge into Lord again. By Its Command, the world was formed. By Its Command, the heavens, this world and the nether regions were created; by Its Command, its Power supports them. Its Command is the mythical bull which supports the burden of the earth on its head. By Its Will, air, water and fire came into being. By Its Will, one dwells in the house of matter and energy - Shiva and Shakti. God Plays Its plays through Its Will. By the command of Its Will, the sky is spread above and creatures dwell in the water, on the land and throughout the three worlds. By Its Will, we draw our breath and receive our food; and It, watches over us, and inspires us to see. By Its Will, God created Its ten incarnations, and the uncounted and infinite gods and devils. Whoever obeys the Command of Its Will is robed with honor in Its Court; united with the Truth, He merges in the Akal Purkh. By the Command of Its Will, the thirty-six ages passed and the Siddhas and seekers contemplate On the Lord. The Akal Purkh Itself has brought all under Its control. Whoever Akal Purkh forgives, is liberated. There is king in the strong fortress of the body, with its beautiful doors and special assistants and ministers. Those gripped by falsehood and greed do not dwell in the celestial home; engrossed in greed and sin, they come to regret and repent. Truth and contentment govern this body-village. Chastity, truth and self-control are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. O, Nanak, one intuitively meets the Akal Purkh, the Life of the World; the Word of the Guru's Sabd brings honor. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1035 & 36

Guru Nanak continues further on AGGS, Page, 1037 explaning from the void further;

In the Primal Void, the Infinite Akal Purkh assumed Its Power and being unattached, infinite and incomparable. It exercised Its Creative Power, and gazes upon Its creation; from the Primal Void, It fashioned air and water. Then created the universe, and became the king in the fortress of the body.

ਸੁੰਨ ਕਲਾ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰੀ ॥ਆਪੇ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਸੁੰਨੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਸੁੰਨੈ ਤੇ ਸਾਜੇ ॥ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕਾਇਆ ਗੜ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ਅਗਨਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੁੰਨੇ ਕਲਾ ਰਹਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ਸੁੰਨੇ ਵਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਸਬਾਏ ॥ਇਸੁ ਪਦ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਸਪਤ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਥਾਪੇ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਜੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ॥ਤਿਤੁ ਸਤ ਸਰਿ ਮਨੂਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਗੈਣਾਰੇ ॥ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸਾਰੇ ॥ਸੁੰਨੇ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਸੁੰਨੇ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਥੰਮਾ ਰਾਖੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਲ ਪਾਏ ॥ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸਾਜਿ ਮੇਖੁਲੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਖਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਖਾਣੀ ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੀ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ਉਤਭੁਜੁ ਚਲਤੁ ਕੀਆ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਦੇਖਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਦੁਇ ਕੀਏ ॥ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਸੁਖਾ ਦੁਖ ਦੀਏ ॥ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਅਮਰੁ ਅਤੀਤਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸਾਮ ਵੇਦੁ ਰਿਗੁ ਜੁਜਰੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਹੈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ॥ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋ ਤਿਉ ਬੋਲੇ ਜਿਉ ਬੋਲਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਸਪਤ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਭਵਣ ਰਖੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਣਿ ਚਉਥੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਾਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਮਝੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ਇਹ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪਉੜੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਰਾਇਣ ਸੋ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਇਆ ਪਤਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ॥ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਕਰਮ ਅਭਿਆਸਾ ॥ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੀਖੇ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਜਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਿ ਮਤਵਾਲੇ ॥ਰਿਧਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਦਾ ॥ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਉ ਨੇਹੁ ਘਨੇਰਾ ॥ਕੋਈ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਰਹੁ ਨਿਬੇਰਾ ॥ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਨਰੁ ਲੋਭੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਏ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਚੇ ਘਰ ਬਾਰਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਦੁ ਸਬਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਰਾਮੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਦਾ ॥ 

In the Primal Void, the Infinite Akal Purkh assumed Its Power and being unattached, infinite and incomparable. It exercised Its Creative Power, and gazes upon Its creation; from the Primal Void, It fashioned air and water. Then created the universe, and became the king in the fortress of the body. Its Light pervades fire, water and souls. From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth. This Primal Void is pervasive throughout all the ages. That humble being who contemplates this state is perfect; meeting with him, doubt is dispelled. From this Primal Void, the seven seas were established. The One, who created them, It self, contemplates them. That human being who becomes Guru willed, who bathes in the pool of Truth, is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again. From this Primal Void, came the moon, the sun and the earth. Its Light pervades all the three worlds. The God of this Primal Void is unseen, infinite and immaculate; and is absorbed in the Primal Trance of Deep Meditation. From this Primal Void, the earth and the cosmos were created. It supports them without any visible support, by exercising Its True Power/Will. It fashioned the three worlds, and the rope of Maya; and creates and destroys. From this Primal Void, came the four sources of creation, and the power of speech. They were created from the Void, and they will merge into the Void. The Supreme Creator created the play of Nature; through the Word of Its Sabd, It stages Its Wondrous Show. From this Primal Void, It made both night and day; Creation and destruction pleasure and pain. The Guru willed is immortal, untouched by pleasure and pain. He obtains the home of his own inner being. The Saam Veda, the Rig Veda, the Jujar Veda and the At'harva Veda from the mouth of Brahma; they speak of the three Gunas, the three qualities of Maya. None of them can describe Its worth. We speak as It inspires us to speak. From the Primal Void, He created the seven nether regions. From the Primal Void, He established this world to lovingly dwell upon It. The Infinite God It self created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, God. Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva. Through egotism, they suffer the pains of birth and death. Those blessed by Its Grace become Guru willed; they attain the fourth state, and are liberated. From the Primal Void, the ten incarnations welled up. Creating the Universe, It made the expanse. It fashioned the demi-gods and demons, the heavenly heralds and celestial musicians; everyone acts according to their past karma. The Guru willed understands, and does not suffer the disease. How rare are those who understand this ladder of the Guru. Throughout the ages, they are dedicated to liberation, and so they become liberated; thus they are honored. From the Primal Void, the five elements became manifest. They joined to form the body, which engages in actions. Both bad and good are written on the forehead, the seeds of vice and virtue. The True Guru, the Primal Being, is sublime and detached. Attuned to the Word of the Sabd, He is intoxicated with the sublime essence of the God. Riches, intellect, miraculous spiritual powers and spiritual wisdom are obtained from the Guru; through perfect destiny, they are received. This mind is so in love with Maya. Only a few are spiritually wise enough to understand and know this. In hope and desire, egotism and skepticism, the greedy man acts falsely. From the True Guru, contemplative meditation is obtained. And then, one dwells with the True God in Its celestial home, the Primal State of Absorption in Deepest Trance. O, Nanak, the immaculate sound current of the Naad, and the Music of the Sabd resound; one merges into the True Name of the God. Wherever I look, I see the God, merciful to the meek. God is compassionate; It does not come or go in reincarnation. It pervades all beings in Its mysterious way; the Sovereign God remains detached. The world is a reflection of It; and has no father or mother, sister or brother. There is no creation or destruction for It; and has no ancestry or social status. The Ageless God is pleasing to my mind. You are the Deathless Primal Being. Death does not hover over Your head. You are the unseen inaccessible and detached Primal God. You are true and content; the Word of Your Sabd is cool and soothing. Through it, we are lovingly, intuitively attuned to You. The three qualities are pervasive; the God dwells in Itss home, the fourth state and has made death and birth into a bite of food. The immaculate Light is the Life of the whole world. The Guru reveals the unstruck melody of the Sabd. Sublime and good are those humble Saints, the Beloveds of the Akal Purkh. They are intoxicated with the sublime essence of the God, and are carried across to the other side. Nanak is the dust of the Society of the Saints; by Guru's Grace, he finds the God. You are the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. All beings belong to You. You are the Great Giver; I am Your slave. Please be merciful and bless me with Your Ambrosial Naam, and the jewel, the lamp of the Guru's spiritual wisdom. From the union of the five elements, this body was made. Finding the God, the Supreme Soul, peace is established. The good karma of past actions brings fruitful rewards, and man is blessed with the jewel of It's Name. His mind does not feel any hunger or thirst. He knows the Immaculate God to be everywhere, in each and every heart. Imbued with the God's ambrosial essence, he becomes a pure, detached renunciates; he is lovingly absorbed in the Guru's Teachings. Whoever does the deeds of the soul, day and night? Sees the immaculate Divine Light deep within. Enraptured with the delightful essence of the Sabd, the source of nectar, my tongue plays the sweet music of the flute. He alone plays the sweet music of this flute, who knows the three worlds? O, Nanak, know this, through the Guru's Teachings, one should lovingly focus on the God's Name. 

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (May 7, 2009)

virinderji

Thank you for the beautiful selection from Gurbani. They stand on their own as articles of truth.  However, the ideas expressed have little relationship to the statements that I find difficult to penetrate. 


_The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature)._ 

_It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation._ 


_Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity._ 

How did God get projected in the form of negativity according to the shabad in your post? The shabad first states that there was a null state, the absence of positives and negatives. Then the shabad states that Akaal Purakh "created" existence. Existence has both positives and negatives. The original state was without form, had no forms. So how does negativity come into it? How does negativity relate to the original null state?

What is more -- "Sargun" can also be unseen. A sub-atomiic particle may be unseen but is also  part of the Sargun of the Creator. The quality of being "unseen" does not explain "Nirgun" in an adequate way. The word "nirgun" itself means without attributes or qualities as you know. Its meaning is not limited to being unseen. Any idea of being unavailable to the senses -- e..g, the sense of sight or seeing -- *oversimplifies* the meaning of "without form, attributes, or qualities." In His "nirgun"  the senses/lack of them *are not* even relevant to the discussion. When He is "nirgun" ordinary reality and ordinary means of grasping reality are useless. Non-ordinary intelligence which has no reference to seeing or not seeing *is *relevant.


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## pk70 (May 7, 2009)

The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature). God has said to possess no qualities when It has drawn the world within Itself. It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation. Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity.(quote VSGrewal Ji)
* Respected Vsgrewal Ji*
*What do you mean by negativity? *
*( Raag Maru Mehla 1, SGGS 1023) you need to understand “dhandokar”(utter darkness where nothing is seen or knowable) too to grasp the idea otherwise the meaning of negativity will convey wrong meaning and this is the reason your ideas jump like a frog  from one corner to another without any certainty, when your ideas like this  are  questioned, you take different road instead of explaining them. You are not trying to understand what Guru meant by “Sunnh and Dhandakar” but invent your own ideology like calling God a spiritual metaphysical energy and principle. Keeping the concept of “Sunnh and Dhandokar” described by Guru in mind, no reasonable person can call Him absolute principle. Principles cannot be in trance, negativity has a difficulty to be in existence if it is measured up to universe expansion as per Guru (not science). If you say God do not exist, I have no problem with that but if you attribute something like” God is a principle” to  Gurbani, I would not let you go without questioning  because facts in SGGS say otherwise.*
*Now let’s look at your given quote*
ਆਪੇਪੇਡੁਬਿਸਥਾਰੀਸਾਖ॥[/FONT]ਅਪਨੀਖੇਤੀਆਪੇਰਾਖ॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT] ਜਤਕਤਪੇਖਉਏਕੈਓਹੀ॥[/FONT]ਘਟਘਟਅੰਤਰਿਆਪੇਸੋਈ॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ॥ [/FONT]ਆਪੇਸੂਰੁਕਿਰਣਿਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ॥[/FONT]ਸੋਈਗੁਪਤੁਸੋਈਆਕਾਰੁ॥[/FONT]੨॥[/FONT] ਸਰਗੁਣਨਿਰਗੁਣਥਾਪੈਨਾਉ॥[/FONT]ਦੁਹਮਿਲਿਏਕੈਕੀਨੋਠਾਉ॥[/FONT]੩॥ [/FONT]ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਗੁਰਿਭ੍ਰਮੁਭਉਖੋਇਆ॥[/FONT]ਅਨਦਰੂਪੁਸਭੁਨੈਨਅਲੋਇਆ॥[/FONT]੪॥[/FONT]੧੭॥[/FONT]੬੮॥[/FONT]

_Āpe ped bisthārī sāk__ẖ[/FONT]. Apnī k__ẖ[/FONT]e__ṯ[/FONT]ī āpe rāk__ẖ[/FONT]. ||1|| Ja__ṯ[/FONT] ka__ṯ[/FONT] pek__ẖ[/FONT]a__▫[/FONT]__o ekai ohī. G__ẖ[/FONT]at g__ẖ[/FONT]at an__ṯ[/FONT]ar āpe so__▫[/FONT]__ī. ||1|| rahā__▫[/FONT]__o. Āpe sūr kira__ṇ[/FONT] bisthār. So__▫[/FONT]__ī gupa__ṯ[/FONT] so__▫[/FONT]__ī ākār. ||2|| Sargu__ṇ[/FONT] nirgu__ṇ[/FONT] thāpai nā__▫[/FONT]__o. __Ḏ[/FONT]uh mil ekai kīno __ṯẖ[/FONT]ā__▫[/FONT]__o. ||3|| Kaho Nānak gur b__ẖ[/FONT]aram b__ẖ[/FONT]a__▫[/FONT]__o k__ẖ[/FONT]o__▫[/FONT]__i__▫[/FONT]__ā. Ana__ḏ[/FONT] rūp sab__ẖ[/FONT] nain alo__▫[/FONT]__i__▫[/FONT]__ā. ||4||17||68||_

Akal Purkh Itself is the tree, and the branches extending out, and preserves Its own crop. ||1|| wherever I look, I see that One Akal Purkh alone. Deep within each and every heart, It Itself is contained. ||1||Pause|| It Itself is the sun, and the rays emanating from it. It is concealed and revealed too. ||2|| It is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes. Both converge onto Its single point. ||3|| Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt and fear. With my eyes, I perceive the Akal Purkh, the embodiment of bliss, to be everywhere. ||4||17||68|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 387-18
*By passing your translation (because you have used a few words I don’t agree with them but still sense is conveyed) what  I would like to ask you is that when you read above Gurbani, how you can reduce Him to be a principle or a spiritual metaphysical energy? Any hint about that in the above quote or in any other you are aware of? Here I am trying to say that either you follow Guru to pass on what he says instead of coining new concept of God or reject him to advocate your inventive concepts. Often you hint about open minds, do you think to coin new concepts of God is to have open mind while discussing Gurbani? *
*You also use “it” for Akalpurakh but Gurus haven’t looked at him in that way?*
*Are you worried of  God 's gender? Guru Sahiban call Him, mata and also pita,  but  also address Him often as “Pati=Husband”, also call Him Karta not karnevali , Sahib not Sahiban, Khasam not Beevee. Why does it worry you, it didn’t bother Guru Sahiban. These are the complexes that break you away from them.*
*Aad Ji has asked you questions triggered by your statements, now you have quoted a few shabadas. Let me repeat her questions so that you can answer them since I am also interested in the answers if you provide ( I doubt though) Green  fonts  display your statements and black one is aad ji’s commentary like questions. *
* Note: Aad Ji, I hope you wouldn’t mind if I repeat your questions as I am also interested in answers.*
_“The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature)._ Nirgun may mean more than that. Sargun may also mean more than that. “
*Here she is simply telling you that the concept you are expressing could be bigger than that. I agree with her. Would you?

*“I confess, I don't understand what this means. _It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation._ When did this idea take birth? it is very theoretical, and my mind may be too cunning to help itself out of its own confusion. “
*She is asking you to define the statement with example, you can do that. Let me make it more simple, are you saying when God projects matter to form creation, he posses all qualities but when he doesn’t project  matter to form something, he doesn’t possess those qualities? I am aware Gurbani states He squeezes everything into Himself but question is about qualities.
*
And in this statement, 
_Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity._ If God is without attributes, then how can God take form of anything. Isn't negativity an attribute. Please explain where my intellect is lacking.
*Here your use of “negativity” is confusing, please elaborate on that. The Guru shabadas you have quoted have no ambiguity as they are coming out of personal experience, your statement contains ambiguity as it is a sheer guessing. You have to clarify that.*
*With regards*
*G Singh*


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 8, 2009)

Dear Add Ji,

Guru Nanak in Raag Ramkali again describes when It becomes Sargun from Nirgun on Page 940-14
A. ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੀਚਾਰੋ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਆਵੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਜਾਵੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਸਬਦੇ ਪਾਈ ॥੨੨॥ 
_Āpe sur__ṯā āpe kar__ṯā kaho Nānak bīc__ẖāro. Hukme āvai hukme jāvai hukme rahai samā▫ī. Pūre gur __ṯe sāc__ẖ kamāvai ga__ṯ mi__ṯ sab__ḏe pā▫ī. ||22|| _

Akal Purkh Itself is consciousness, the Creator; share with us, Nanak, your wisdom. By Its Command we come, and by Its Command we go and we merge in absorption. Through the Perfect Guru, live the Truth; through the Word of the Sabd, the state of dignity is attained. ||22|| 

ਆਦਿ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਕਥੀਅਲੇ ਸੁੰਨ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਅਕਲਪਤ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਅਲੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਅਵਿਗਤਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਲਹੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੂਜੀ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਕਰਣੀ ਸੇਵੈ ਸਿਖੁ ਸੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਲਹੈ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਜੀਅ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੨੩॥ 
_Ā__ḏ ka▫o bismā__ḏ bīc__ẖār kathī▫ale sunn niran__ṯar vās lī▫ā. Akalpa__ṯ mu__ḏrā gur gi▫ān bīc__ẖārī▫ale g__ẖat g__ẖat sāc__ẖā sarab jī▫ā. Gur bac__ẖnī aviga__ṯ samā▫ī▫ai __ṯa__ṯ niranjan sahj lahai. Nānak __ḏūjī kār na kar__ṇī sevai sik__ẖ so k__ẖoj lahai. Hukam bismā__ḏ hukam pac__ẖẖā__ṇai jī▫a juga__ṯ sac__ẖ jā__ṇai so▫ī. Āp met nirālam hovai an__ṯar sāc__ẖ jogī kahī▫ai so▫ī. ||23||_

We can only express a sense of wonder about the beginning. The absolute abided endlessly deep within It self then. Consider freedom from desire to be the ear-rings of the Guru's spiritual wisdom. The True God, the Soul of all, dwells within each and every heart. Through the Guru's Word, one merges in the absolute, and intuitively receives the immaculate essence. O Nanak, that Sikh who seeks and finds the Way does not serve any other. Wonderful and amazing is Its Command; He alone realizes Its Command and knows the true way of life of Its creatures. One who eradicates his self-conceit becomes free of desire; he alone is a Yogi, who enshrines the True God deep within. ||23|| ਅਵਿਗਤੋ *ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਤੇ* *ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਥੀਆ **॥* ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਏਕੇ ਕਉ ਸਚੁ ਏਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਰਬ ਦਇਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ॥੨੪॥
*Aviga**ṯ**o nirmā&shy;il upjė nirgu**ṇ* *ṯ**ė sargu**ṇ** thī&shy;ā.*_ Sa__ṯ__gur parc__ẖ__ai param pa__ḏ__ pā▫ī▫ai sāc__ẖ__ai saba__ḏ__ samā▫e lī▫ā. Ėke ka▫o sac__ẖ__ ekā jā__ṇ__ai ha▫umai __ḏ__ūjā __ḏ__ūr kī▫ā. So jogī gur saba__ḏ__ pac__ẖẖ__ā__ṇ__ai an__ṯ__ar kamal pargās thī▫ā. Jīva__ṯ__ marai __ṯ__ā sab__ẖ__ kic__ẖẖ__ sūj__ẖ__ai an__ṯ__ar jā__ṇ__ai sarab __ḏ__a▫i▫ā. Nānak __ṯ__ā ka▫o milai vadā▫ī āp pac__ẖẖ__ā__ṇ__ai sarab jī▫ā. ||24|| _

*From Its state of absolute existence, God assumed the immaculate form; from formless, It assumed the supreme form.* By pleasing the True Guru, the supreme status is obtained, and one is absorbed in the True Word of the Sabd. He knows the True Akal Purkh as the One and only; he sends his egotism and duality far away. He alone is a Yogi, who realizes the Word of the Guru's Sabd; the lotus of the heart blossoms forth within. If one remains dead while yet alive, then he understands everything; he knows the Akal Purkh deep within himself, who is kind and compassionate to all. O Nanak, he is blessed with glorious greatness; he realizes himself in all beings. ||24||                                                                                                                                                                           
                                      -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali Sidh Gost, AGGS, Page, 940-14
Cordially,

Virinder


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 8, 2009)

Dear PK Ji,

Guru Nanak replies your question in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 940-14;

ਅਵਿਗਤੋ *ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਤੇ**ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਥੀਆ **॥* 

I have already posted the whole Sabd.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh (May 8, 2009)

Nirgun and Sirgun.

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add my 2cent worth here in a simple lay man's manner.

The way I understand Ik Ong Kaar being Nirgun and Sirgun means that this Creative Energy is in ALL that has existed, exists and shall exist. That is what SAT is all about.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (May 8, 2009)

Dear Teji & Aad Ji,

Guru Nanak and others all left up to Akal Purkh Itself to know when from Nirgun to Sargun It became or when the creation came in to being to be praised by human senses. Here are few references;

Creation is the visual manifestation of “Akal Purkh” as Its Sargun character by showing Its attributes in “Mother Nature”. It is a divine act with further evolution taking over according to various religious, scientific, and philosophical explanations. Guru Nanak answers the questions about the change from Nirgun to Sargun in Ragas Malar, Bilawal, and in his Japji that only Akal Purkh knows the answer to the question;

ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਬਰੁ ਧਰਤਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿ ਚੰਦੋਆ ਤਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗਗਨੁ ਰਹਾਇ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਚੰਦੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਕੀਏ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨੰਤੁ ਚੋਜ ਵਿਡਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਧਰਮ ਵੀਚਾਰ ਨਾਵਣ ਪੁਰਬਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਰਿ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ਕਿ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣਿਆ॥ ਸਚੈ ਤਖਤਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਹੋਰ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਿਆ ॥

_Āpīnĥai āp sāj āp pacẖẖāṇi▫ā. Ambar ḏẖaraṯ vicẖẖoṛ cẖanḏo▫ā ṯāṇi▫ā. viṇ thamĥā gagan rahā▫e sabaḏ nīsāṇi▫ā. Sūraj cẖanḏ upā▫e joṯ samāṇi▫ā. Kī▫e rāṯ ḏinanṯ cẖoj vidāṇi▫ā. Ŧirath ḏẖaram vīcẖār nāvaṇ purbāṇi▫ā. Ŧuḏẖ sar avar na ko▫e kė ākẖ vakẖāṇi▫ā. Sacẖai ṯakẖaṯ nivās hor āvaṇ jāṇi▫ā._ 

*Akal Purkh created It self, and understands Itself.* Separating the sky and the earth, It has spread out Its canopy. Without any pillars, It supports the sky, through the insignia of Its Sabd. Creating the sun and the moon, It infused Its Light into them. It created the night and the day; wondrous are Its miraculous plays. It created the sacred shrines of pilgrimage, where people contemplate righteousness, and take cleansing baths on special occasions. There is no other equal to You; how can we speak and describe you? You are seated on the throne of Truth; all others come and go. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1279

ਆਪੇ ਸਚੁ ਕੀਆ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ॥ਅੰਡਜ ਫੋੜਿ ਜੋੜਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿ ॥ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਕੀਏ ਬੈਸਣ ਕਉ ਥਾਉ ॥ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨੰਤੁ ਕੀਏ ਭਉ ਭਾਉ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖਣਹਾਰਾ ॥ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰਾ ॥

_Āpė sacẖ kī¬ā kar joṛ. Andaj foṛ joṛ vicẖẖoṛ. Ḏẖaraṯ akās kī¬ė baisaṇ ka¬o thā¬o. Rāṯ ḏinanṯ kī¬ė bẖa¬o bẖā¬o. Jin kī¬ė kar vėkẖaṇhārā. Avar na ḏūjā sirjaṇhārā._

Akal Purkh Itself created the universe, joining the elements together. Breaking the cosmic egg, It united, and separated. Then made the earth and the sky into places to live, and created day and night, fear and love. The One, who created the Creation, also watches over it. There is no other Creator than Akal Purkh. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 839 

ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਅੰਦਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਾਹਰਿ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਜਾਹਰਿ ॥ ਜੁਗ ਛਤੀਹ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਸੁੰਨਾਹਰਿ ॥ ਓਥੈ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਨ ਸਾਸਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਰਹਰਿ ॥ ਬੈਠਾ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਇ ਆਪਿ ਸਭ ਦੂ ਹੀ ਬਾਹਰਿ ॥ ਆਪਣੀ ਮਿਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਗਉਹਰੁ ॥੧੮॥

_Āpe sabẖ gẖat anḏre āpe hī bāhar. Āpe gupaṯ varaṯḏā āpe hī jāhar. Jug cẖẖaṯīh gubār kar varṯi▫ā sunnāhar. Othai veḏ purān na sāsṯā āpe har narhar. Baiṯẖā ṯāṛī lā▫e āp sabẖ ḏū hī bāhar. Āpṇī miṯ āp jāṇḏā āpe hī ga▫uhar. ||18||_

*Akal Purkh Itself is deep within all hearts, and is outside as well; prevailing unmanifest, and is manifest.* For thirty-six ages, He created the darkness, abiding in the void. There were no Vedas, Puraanas or Shaastras there; only the Akal Purkh Itself existed sitting in the absolute trance, withdrawn from everything. Only It Itself knows Its state; and is the unfathomable ocean. ||18|| -----Guru Amardas, Bihagra Ki Var, AGGS, Page, 555-17

Guru Nanak questions and replies in Japji about creation;

ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ॥

_Kavaṇ so vėlā vakẖaṯ kavaṇ kavaṇ thiṯ kavaṇ vār. Kavaṇ se ruṯī māhu kavaṇ jiṯ ho¬ā ākār. vėl na pā¬ī¬ā pandṯī je hovai lėkẖ purāṇ. vakẖaṯ na pā¬i¬o kāḏī¬ā je likẖan lėkẖ kurāṇ. Thiṯ vār nā jogī jāṇai ruṯ māhu nā ko¬ī. Jā karṯā sirṯẖī ka¬o sājė āpė jāṇai so¬ī. Kiv kar ākẖā kiv sālāhī ki¬o varnī kiv jāṇā. Nānak ākẖaṇ sabẖ ko ākẖai ik ḏū ik si¬āṇā. vadā sāhib vadī nā¬ī kīṯā jā kā hovai. Nānak jė ko āpou jāṇai agai ga¬i¬ā na sohai. Pāṯālā pāṯāl lakẖ āgāsā āgās. Oṛak oṛak bẖāl thakė vėḏ kahan ik vāṯ. Sahas aṯẖārah kahan kaṯėbā asulū ik ḏẖāṯ. Lėkẖā ho¬ė ṯa likī¬ai lėkẖai ho¬ė viṇās. Nānak vadā ākẖī¬ai āpė jāṇai āp._

What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date? What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created? The Pundits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas. That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran. The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

*The Creator who created this creation (Akal Purkh) Itself knows. How can we speak of It?* 

How can we praise It? How can we describe It? How can we know It? O, Nanak, everyone speaks of God, each one wiser than the rest. Great is the Master, Great is Its Name. Whatever happens is according to Its Will. O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above. The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary. The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe. If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it. O Nanak, call Akal Purkh Great! It Itself knows Itself. -----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 4 & 5

He further goes on in Japji;

The praiser’s praise the God, but they do not obtain intuitive understanding the streams and rivers flowing into the ocean do not know its vastness. Even kings and emperors, with mountains of property and oceans of wealth are not even equal to an ant, which does not forget God. Endless are Its Praises; endless are those who speak them. Endless are Its Actions, endless are Its Gifts. Endless is Its Vision, endless is Its Hearing. Its limits cannot be perceived. What is the Mystery of Its Mind? Its limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know Its limits, but Its limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits. The more you say about them, the more there still remains to be said. Great is the Master; High is Its Heavenly Home. Highest of the High, above all is Its Name. Only one as Great and as High as God can know Its Lofty and Exalted State*. *

*Only It Itself is that Great. It Itself knows Itself.* 

O, Nanak, by Its Glance of Grace, It bestows Its Blessings. Its Blessings are so abundant that there can be no written account of them. The Great Giver does not hold back anything. There are so many great, heroic warriors begging at the Door of the Infinite God. So many contemplate and dwell upon It, that they cannot be counted. So many wastes away to death engaged in corruption. So many take and take again, and then deny receiving. So many foolish consumers keep on consuming and so many endure distress, deprivation and constant abuse. Even these are Your Gifts, O Great Giver! Liberation from bondage comes only by Your Will. No one else has any say in this. If some fool should presume to say that he does, He shall learn, and feel the effects of his folly. It Itself knows, and Itself gives. Few, very few are those who acknowledge this. One who is blessed to sing the Praises of the Akal Purkh? O, Nanak is the king of kings. 

Cordially,

Virinder


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## pk70 (May 8, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear PK Ji,
> 
> Guru Nanak replies your question in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 940-14;
> 
> ...



*Respected VSGrewal Ji*
*I am awfully sorry to say that you haven’t answered anything, why? Let’s go back to questions put to you*
*Questions*
*1. How you can call Him a Principal or spiritual metaphysical energy when it’s not the concept Guru illustrates. If you call HIM infinite energy only that at least doesn’t curb the concept of God because in this context energy stands for infinite power*
*2. You call God “It” but Guru’s address HIM as a powerful entity that could be called with many words describing relations well created by humans, why are you breaking away from them. They didn’t curb their call of Him as  only“it” Oh”  or with one single name, actually they have brought God right into us as our dear relation that goes above “it”, no doubt is left and that is the beauty of God.*
*ਪੰਨਾ 591, [/FONT]ਸਤਰ 19[/FONT] 
**ਇਸੁ**ਜਗ**ਮਹਿ**ਪੁਰਖੁ**ਏਕੁ**ਹੈ**ਹੋਰ**ਸਗਲੀ**ਨਾਰ**ਿ**ਸਬਾਈ**॥[/FONT]
**इसु[/FONT]**जग[/FONT]**महि[/FONT]**पुरखु[/FONT]**एकु[/FONT]**है[/FONT]**होर[/FONT]**सगली[/FONT]
Is jag mėh purak**ẖ[/FONT] ek hai hor saglī nār sabā**▫[/FONT]**ī.
In this world, there is one Husband Lord; all other beings are His brides.
**ਮਃ 3   -  **view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok (you can click it here and read the whole Shabad)*
* What is your reason behind it? *
*Your quote in reference to question # 3*
ਅਵਿਗਤੋ *ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਤੇਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਥੀਆ **॥[/FONT]* ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ਲੀਆ ॥[/FONT] ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ਲੀਆ ॥[/FONT] ਏਕੇ ਕਉ ਸਚੁ ਏਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕੀਆ ॥[/FONT] ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥[/FONT] ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥[/FONT] ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਰਬ ਦਇਆ ॥[/FONT] ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ॥[/FONT]੨੪॥[/FONT]
[/FONT]
*Aviga**ṯ[/FONT]o nirmā*il upjė nirgu**ṇṯ[/FONT]ė sargu**ṇ[/FONT] thī*ā.*_ Sa__ṯ[/FONT]gur parc__ẖ[/FONT]ai param pa__ḏ[/FONT] pā__▫[/FONT]__ī__▫[/FONT]__ai sāc__ẖ[/FONT]ai saba__ḏ[/FONT] samā__▫[/FONT]__e lī__▫[/FONT]__ā. Ėke ka__▫[/FONT]__o sac__ẖ[/FONT] ekā jā__ṇ[/FONT]ai ha__▫[/FONT]__umai __ḏ[/FONT]ūjā __ḏ[/FONT]ūr kī__▫[/FONT]__ā. So jogī gur saba__ḏ[/FONT] pac__ẖẖ[/FONT]ā__ṇ[/FONT]ai an__ṯ[/FONT]ar kamal pargās thī__▫[/FONT]__ā. Jīva__ṯ[/FONT] marai __ṯ[/FONT]ā sab__ẖ[/FONT] kic__ẖẖ[/FONT] sūj__ẖ[/FONT]ai an__ṯ[/FONT]ar jā__ṇ[/FONT]ai sarab __ḏ[/FONT]a__▫[/FONT]__i__▫[/FONT]__ā. Nānak __ṯ[/FONT]ā ka__▫[/FONT]__o milai vadā__▫[/FONT]__ī āp pac__ẖẖ[/FONT]ā__ṇ[/FONT]ai sarab jī__▫[/FONT]__ā. ||24|| _

*From Its state of absolute existence, God assumed the immaculate form; from formless, It assumed the supreme form.* By pleasing the True Guru, the supreme status is obtained, and one is absorbed in the True Word of the Sabd. He knows the True Akal Purkh as the One and only; he sends his egotism and duality far away. He alone is a Yogi, who realizes the Word of the Guru's Sabd; the lotus of the heart blossoms forth within. If one remains dead while yet alive, then he understands everything; he knows the Akal Purkh deep within himself, who is kind and compassionate to all. O Nanak, he is blessed with glorious greatness; he realizes himself in all beings. ||24|| 
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali Sidh Gost, AGGS, Page, 940-14


*ਅਵਿਗਤੋ= ,means  "from that cannot be seen(invisible/ beyond explanation)" (**ਤੋ =from) , so**ਅਵਿਗਤੋ**ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ=   from unseen pure(that cannot be explained), it doesn’t mean absolute existence because Guru is well careful in using words in such complex contexts. In simple words, from unseen pure( Just cannot be explained) came into two forms, formless and with form*
*(Question #3There is no hint about having no quality when projection of creation is not occurred as you declare in your statement that he has all quality when He creates, actually that was the point aad Ji asking you (and I as well)*
*Your assumption lies here. Guru is crystal clear; he says that from unseen pure God came in Nirgun and Sargun. Here If you note it down there is no word to curb His entity in any sense as you have done. If you remember in one of your subtracts you say, “Sikhism is not to create saints” (the first one you posted here on SPN) in another one you declare, God talked to Nanak as “ I have given you life, enjoy it” Such statement conceived from your  own assumptions and  are total distortion of Gurbani because there is not any Gurbani Verse that supports that, in fact pursuit of enjoyment is discouraged to live normal life because that pursuit drags the soul away from the creator since enjoyment  pursuit lacks “satisfaction point”. You must realize I am not against you at all, I give you due respect but tell me how can I be silent while you are telling people your own thinking by wrapping it Gurbani?*
*With regards*
*G Singh*


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## mystique_void (May 8, 2009)

*"You must realize I am not against you at all, I give you due 
respect but tell me how can I be silent while you are telling 
people your own thinking by wrapping it Gurbani?"

*Dear PK70 ji,

It'd be wrong to presume that we are dealing with 
some academic differences of opinion that border 
on abstraction and ambiguity.  That is not the case 
at all.  If we examine the whole pattern over the last 
several years, we would be left with no doubt that 
everything is very deliberate, malicious and carefully 
planned.    

When someone takes on the task of challenging our 
long history, everything that is precious and sacred to us, 
our very way of life - there is a need to set aside 
the academic part of the issue and view the matter 
in a completely different light.


----------



## spnadmin (May 8, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Nirgun and Sirgun.
> 
> Antonia ji,
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji

I don't disagree that the Sat is Creative, Destructive, Sustaining energy that pervades all creation. However, the constant concern that follows me everywhere is by describing the Sat as abstract energy we reduce our understanding of Kartar Purakh(u) to a scientific construct. I am not saying that you are saying that. But there is a lot of racket in the background in which science aims to explain the Divine in scientific terms using the language of science. This in the end raises science to the Knower of Everything which is impossible in Gurmat. And it diminishes the Divine. It reduces Him to the metaphysical. 

If Kartar Purakh(u) is Akaal the Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent -- then the Divine cannot be merely a principle or an energy. Such claims begin to sound like the theory of everything in mathematics and physics, or unified field theory in physics. 

May I suggest that the Divine, when in His nirgun state, is also energy that is conscious of Himself/itself. A consciousness that cannot be grasped with the ordinary faculties of perception or by mental strategies. In his nirgun state He is neither seen nor unseen, neither heard nor not-heard, neither felt nor un-felt, and like that. In His nirgun state _He_ is _conscious_ of everything, but _everything_ is not conscious of _Him_ -- except under conditions that are rare and therefore not ordinary.


 ਕਰਨ  ਕਰਾਵਨਹਾਰ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ॥ 
 करन करावनहार सुआमी ॥
 Karan karāvanhār su▫āmī. 
 The Lord is the Doer and Prompter of actions.

 ਸਗਲ  ਘਟਾ  ਕੇ  ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ  ॥ 
 सगल घटा के अंतरजामी ॥
 Sagal gẖatā ke anṯarjāmī. 
 He is the Knower of all the hearts.

 ਅਪਨੀ  ਗਤਿ  ਮਿਤਿ  ਜਾਨਹੁ  ਆਪੇ  ॥ 
 अपनी गति मिति जानहु आपे ॥
 Apnī gaṯ miṯ jānhu āpe. 
 Thine condition and estimation thou Thyself knowest.

 ਆਪਨ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਆਪਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਰਾਤੇ  ॥ 
 आपन संगि आपि प्रभ राते ॥
 Āpan sang āp parabẖ rāṯe. 
 Thou Thyself art imbued with Thyself, O Lord.

 ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਰੀ  ਉਸਤਤਿ  ਤੁਮ  ਤੇ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
 तुम्हरी उसतति तुम ते होइ ॥
 Ŧumĥrī usṯaṯ ṯum ṯe ho▫e. 
 Thy praise can only be celebrated by Thee.

 ਨਾਨਕ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਨਸਿ  ਕੋਇ  ॥੭॥ 
 नानक अवरु न जानसि कोइ ॥७॥
 Nānak avar na jānas ko▫e. ||7|| 
 None else, O Nanak, knows Thy praise.

Ang 266

In other words, Kartar Purakh(u) who is the primal cause and who pervades His entire creation alone comprehends His own nature completely. He is completely embedded, inherent, within His own nature, and He alone can truly proclaim who He is and what He can do. And for this reason we cannot describe the Divine as a principle or collection of energies, for we do not have His consciousness and therefore are incapable of His description.


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## pk70 (May 9, 2009)

mystique_void said:


> *"You must realize I am not against you at all, I give you due
> respect but tell me how can I be silent while you are telling
> people your own thinking by wrapping it Gurbani?"
> 
> ...




* I concur.*
* Keep the guards on to counter that deliberate attempts to negate Guru Establishments,  while doing so, civility still  can be kept intact.*

*Regards*
*G Singh*


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## mystique_void (May 9, 2009)

Dear Aad Ji,

Thanks for sharing a beautiful sabad.  You asked me 
something on the nirgun/sargun topic in a different thread.  
I've lost track of that thread and as a result responding 
in this one.  

Rocket science is considered the most complex subject 
the humans ever had to deal with.  Yet a crucial element 
of rocket technology that emerged out of the space race 
of the 60s and is still highly valued is known by the 
acronym KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid).    So being simple 
does have proven benefits when dealing with complex 
issues. 

Contrary to this principle, some Indian school 
teachers try to make even the simplest ideas as 
complex as they can in an effort to deliberately 
confuse the students.  They use this approach to 
impress and show off their intelligence.  A confused 
student is also more dependent on the teacher. 

Children start writing essays when they are in Grade 7.
So writing essays is not a big deal.  Anyone who has 
gone to school can write several pages in a few hours.  
The important thing to watch out for is what is contained 
in the essays.  Are the essays bringing people closer 
to the Guru or are they just a tool to advance the 
personal agenda or designs or ideology or politics 
of the writer?  That is the overriding factor which 
determines how we view a particular piece of 
writing related to Sikhi.  

Another question that needs pondering is how objective 
the analysis of a person who doesn't have faith either 
in the Sikh Gurus or their legacy and also denies/distorts 
most of the Sikh history is going to be.  

More on this subject later....

I do appreciate the painstaking efforts you and the rest 
of the team put in to maintain sanity on the forum.

Regards,


----------



## Tejwant Singh (May 10, 2009)

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

I thank you for describing how you see Ik Ong Kaar from your own experience of Gurbani but I am a bit confused by what you have written.

You write:




> I don't disagree that the Sat is Creative, Destructive, Sustaining energy that pervades all creation. However, the constant concern that follows me everywhere is by describing the Sat as abstract energy we reduce our understanding of Kartar Purakh(u) to a scientific construct. I am not saying that you are saying that. But there is a lot of racket in the background in which science aims to explain the Divine in scientific terms using the language of science. This in the end raises science to the Knower of Everything which is impossible in Gurmat. And it diminishes the Divine. It reduces Him to the metaphysical.



I have always used the word to describe Ik Ong Kaar- Ajuni Saibung as described in Moolmanter as Creative Energy, by which I mean Energy that creates itself. I have never used the words destructive or sustaining. The way I understand it as I mentioned in my post that this Creative Energy is in ALL- both in organic and in inorganic.I have no idea what you mean by abstract energy. I would like you to elaborate that.

Secondly,Science according to American Heritage dictionary

1. The observation, identification, description, experimental
investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

The objective of science is not to prove anything but to observe it and show the results sans bias. In other words many of us take science as a lab test which it is not in this case. Science is used to create the faculty of reasoning and common sense in human beings.Hence one can name it as a scientific observation.

The best example of scientific observation was by Guru Nanak when he started throwing water towards the west while the Hindus were throwing it towards the Sun in the east. He wanted to prove them that reason does not allow us to conclude that water can ever reach the Sun. We can repeat the same example of Janieo as a scientific observation. We can go further and talk about the episode in Mecca  where the Mullah asked Guru Nanak not to direct his feet where Allah is. And Guru Nanak with his approach of reason requested the Mullah to move his feet towards the direction where Allah is not. One can go on and on.

So, for me science does not have any agenda of its own the way I understand it nor does it have any particular aim. Hence, we should not be afraid to use the word Scientific observation in Sikhi.




> If Kartar Purakh(u) is Akaal the Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent -- then the Divine cannot be merely a principle or an energy. Such claims begin to sound like the theory of everything in mathematics and physics, or unified field theory in physics.



I do not know what is NOT Energy. 

Our language and intellect are insignificantly minute to express/describe/explain Ik Ong Kaar. Our Gurus said the same in SGGS many times. That is why Gurbani is a beautiful poetry full of metaphors which can have different meanings to different people at different stages of their lives. I myself discover new things in the same Gurbani which I have been studying. This is the beauty of this particular poetry.




> May I suggest that the Divine, when in His nirgun state, is also energy that is conscious of Himself/itself. A consciousness that cannot be grasped with the ordinary faculties of perception or by mental strategies. In his nirgun state He is neither seen nor unseen, neither heard nor not-heard, neither felt nor un-felt, and like that. In His nirgun state _He_ is _conscious_ of everything, but _everything_ is not conscious of _Him_ -- except under conditions that are rare and therefore not ordinary


 
I personally do not know what the word 'Conscious' means in relation to Ik Ong Kaar. My limited knowledge is not able to find that connection. Perhaps one day I will be able to do that.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਰਨ


> ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨਹਾਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
> करन करावनहार सुआमी ॥
> Karan karāvanhār su▫āmī.
> The Lord is the Doer and Prompter of actions.
> ...




I agree with you. My main objective is not how to describe Ik Ong Kaar with the limited knowledge and langauge that we human possess but how to find connection with HIM/HER/IT. But I do relish the poetic way our Gurus take us into different dimensions of HIS/HER/IT existence everytime I chant Gurbani. It gives me goose bumps.

For me, It is hard to define the Creator of the Universe and beyond, our Divine Master. Ik Ong Kaar's form is immeasurable, inaccessible and unfathomable. Ik Ong Kaar is all-pervading everywhere. Ik Ong Kaar is above all formless and indescribable, so sublime as to be totally beyond human powers of recognition, description, or conception. 

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (May 12, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Why don't we try to understand the terms "nirgun" and "sargun" in depth? That would be helpful. For the sake of this discussion, let me begin by saying that this statement may be overly simple:
> 
> _The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature)._ Nirgun may mean more than that. Sargun may also mean more than that.
> 
> ...


I think because that idea is very cunning, its also very useful. You probably know where I am getting at. Sikhs can believe in any God... could be existent... non-existent... real purpose is therefore not serving God but serving humanity, etc.
Its more universal and more open. It allows for people to come together. I think its one of Sikhism strengths.


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## spnadmin (May 12, 2009)

Bhagat ji

If that is all there is to Sikhism then Sikhs are social workers in disguise. Do you really think that the concepts of Sargun and Nirgun excuse Sikhs from being intellectually responsible?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (May 13, 2009)

I will admit that I know very little about Nirgun and Sargun.

I think at its base Sikhi is a way of reaching the inner experience of Akaal Purakh in harmony with the outer experience of Ik Onkaar through love of the unity of Nirgun (beyond, outside of Maya) and Sargun (within, inside of Maya). We do this outwardly through prayer, service, charity and, of course, the five kakkars. Each of these has one meaning in the physical world, as well as a deeper meaning in the nonphysical world. This also relates to miri-piri, although both are (generally) within Maya.

While we are here in Maya, it is impossible to KNOW anything; we have only our beliefs. To KNOW, it is necessary to step outside of Maya. This is a gift from Satguru Sahib Ji. Unless you have had this experience of a vacation from Maya, any discussion of Nirgun and Sargun, and indeed, anything else, is theoretical.

It is important, I think, that we remember this, lest we sink into dogmatism and futile argument. We are exploring unfamiliar country, in the dark, with only the Jyot in each of us and Gurbani of SGGS Ji to guide us and to provide light. It is a great adventure.  Let us remember that few if any -  of us have the slightest idea what we are talking about.  So let us approach this with humility and open-mindedness.

LET THE ADVENTURE BEGIN!!:happy:


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## spnadmin (May 13, 2009)

After reading the last several comments in the thread I am still left with this question. Why do we as humans stubbornly strive to define the Divine using the constructs of human intelligence?  In other words,  explain something that is far greater than all of creation combined in naturalistic terms?  Naturally we describe our personal experiences using very personal labels of language and thought -- what else can a human do? But to describe the experience should not be confused with finding the reality. 

Voltaire said, _If God did not exist_ *then man would have created Him*.  That is what we are doing when we try to grasp His consciousness in terms of our rational consciousness. That is what we are doing when we use scientific and rational constructs to understand. Should we not rather admit how feeble we are and depend on His reach to bring us home?

The Hebrew and Christian Bibles say that God created us in His own image and likeness. But what we instead do is create God in our own likeness one faith at a time.

No doubt that Gurbani will mean different things to each of us at each level of our experience. But that is precisely the point. The meanings we create are created by a camel-like mind, beautiful camel-like minds says Guru Nanak Dev ji, but our minds are always wandering aimlessly. Our experiences are woefully fallible. Our science is inadequate. Our reason is deficient.

So, I cannot say that each and every understanding suffices. It is too easy to remain stuck in the creations of the camel-like mind, our own intellect. This is not dogmatism but an admission that there work to do, and more to the journey. 

ਮੁਕਾਮੁ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਲੋਕ ॥੧॥ 
mukaam thaa par jaaneeai jaa rehai nihachal lok ||1||
This would be known as a lasting place of rest, only if they were to remain stable and unchanging. ||1||


  ਦੁਨੀਆ ਕੈਸਿ ਮੁਕਾਮੇ ॥ 
dhuneeaa kais mukaamae ||
What sort of a resting place is this world?


  ਕਰਿ ਸਿਦਕੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਖਰਚੁ ਬਾਧਹੁ ਲਾਗਿ ਰਹੁ ਨਾਮੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
kar sidhak karanee kharach baadhhahu laag rahu naamae ||1|| rehaao ||
Doing deeds of faith, pack up the supplies for your journey, and remain committed to the Name. ||1||Pause||
  

 ਜੋਗੀ ਤ ਆਸਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਬਹੈ ਮੁਲਾ ਬਹੈ ਮੁਕਾਮਿ ॥ 
jogee th aasan kar behai mulaa behai mukaam ||
The Yogis sit in their Yogic postures, and the Mullahs sit at their resting stations.


  ਪੰਡਿਤ ਵਖਾਣਹਿ ਪੋਥੀਆ ਸਿਧ ਬਹਹਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਥਾਨਿ ॥੨॥ 
panddith vakhaanehi pothheeaa sidhh behehi dhaev sathhaan ||2||
The Hindu Pandits recite from their books, and the Siddhas sit in the temples of their gods. ||2||
  

 ਸੁਰ ਸਿਧ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਖ ਪੀਰ ਸਲਾਰ ॥ 
sur sidhh gan gandhharab mun jan saekh peer salaar ||
The angels, Siddhas, worshippers of Shiva, heavenly musicians, silent sages, Saints, priests, preachers, spiritual teachers and commanders
  

 ਦਰਿ ਕੂਚ ਕੂਚਾ ਕਰਿ ਗਏ ਅਵਰੇ ਭਿ ਚਲਣਹਾਰ ॥੩॥ 
dhar kooch koochaa kar geae avarae bh chalanehaar ||3||
-each and every one has left, and all others shall depart as well. ||3||
  

 ਸੁਲਤਾਨ ਖਾਨ ਮਲੂਕ ਉਮਰੇ ਗਏ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕੂਚੁ ॥ 
sulathaan khaan malook oumarae geae kar kar kooch ||
The sultans and kings, the rich and the mighty, have marched away in succession.


  ਘੜੀ ਮੁਹਤਿ ਕਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਦਿਲ ਸਮਝੁ ਤੂੰ ਭਿ ਪਹੂਚੁ ॥੪॥ 
gharree muhath k chalanaa dhil samajh thoon bh pehooch ||4||
In a moment or two, we shall also depart. O my heart, understand that you must go as well! ||4||
  

 ਸਬਦਾਹ ਮਾਹਿ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਤ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
sabadhaah maahi vakhaaneeai viralaa th boojhai koe ||
This is described in the Shabads; only a few understand this!
  

 ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੫॥ 
naanak vakhaanai baenathee jal thhal meheeal soe ||5||
Nanak offers this prayer to the One who pervades the water, the land and the air. ||5||

Guru Nanak, Sriraag, Ang 64

The conversation is never futile if it leads to further considerations of Nanak's prayer.


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## pk70 (May 13, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> After reading the last several comments in the thread I am still left with this question. Why do we as humans stubbornly strive to define the Divine using the constructs of human intelligence? In other words, explain something that is far greater than all of creation combined in naturalistic terms? Naturally we describe our personal experiences using very personal labels of language and thought -- what else can a human do? But to describe the experience should not be confused with finding the reality.
> 
> Voltaire said, _If God did not exist_ *then man would have created Him*. That is what we are doing when we try to grasp His consciousness in terms of our rational consciousness. That is what we are doing when we use scientific and rational constructs to understand. Should we not rather admit how feeble we are and depend on His reach to bring us home?
> 
> ...





Beautiful and extremely comments aligned with Guru Message in context of understanding the Infinite. Quoted Guru shabad supports His eternity  and all pervading power compared to coming and going of human beings. :happy:


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## Tejwant Singh (May 13, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> After reading the last several comments in the thread I am still left with this question. Why do we as humans stubbornly strive to define the Divine using the constructs of human intelligence? In other words, explain something that is far greater than all of creation combined in naturalistic terms? Naturally we describe our personal experiences using very personal labels of language and thought -- what else can a human do? But to describe the experience should not be confused with finding the reality.
> 
> Voltaire said, _If God did not exist_ *then man would have created Him*. That is what we are doing when we try to grasp His consciousness in terms of our rational consciousness. That is what we are doing when we use scientific and rational constructs to understand. Should we not rather admit how feeble we are and depend on His reach to bring us home?
> 
> ...


 
Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

I love your thoughts and your inner quest in the post. It is beauitful and quite introspective. 

Our Guru urges us  through this beautiful Shabad  that you have mentioned above to make the best of this life of ours, not by being idle but by being useful to the society, to the strangers and last but not the least, to the near and dear ones. 

By holding a hand of those who feel directionless and helping them find it. By offering the shoulder when someone needs a solace. By offering love without expecting anything in return and by loving in such a way that breeds understanding and acceptance within which at times may make us walk on the path fulll of broken glass. 

One's life in this world only feels fulfilled when one remains in Chardi Kala against all odds, then only one has passed the Gurmat test of life.

So Antonia ji, may Ik Ong Kaar give you enough strength and courage to stay in Chardi Kala because you know what it means when Guru Amardas says in Anand Sahib, 

" Khanneio tikhi, valon niki etei marg janah".

 Sikhi is not just a high wire event but Sikhi is a high wire way of life.

Now the question occurs that if Sikhi is a high wire life, which means walking on a tight rope is the only journey a Sikh has, then what about the safety net in case a Sikh tumbles which is natural and this tumbling does not happen only once in our lifetime but many times?

Gurbani says," Mera Satguru rakhvala hoa".

Ik Ong kaar is my safety net so  that is why I am able lead this walking on a high wire life.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 13, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Antonia ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tej ji

There are no failures in His eyes. He created his Creation and rejoices in it. We fail in our own eyes. The message from the eye to mind and the sense that mind makes of it sustains duality and with that the pain and fear of our inadequacy. It is easy to say this, to write it down. Much more difficult to live and act completely in consciousness. Believe me when I say this -- I am an expert at living in duality. Because it is so difficult, it is tempting to resort to constructing theories of His nature and remaining stuck in our intellects. Wish I had a way out, but for now staying close to Gurbani will have to be the means for the journey.


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## BhagatSingh (May 13, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> If that is all there is to Sikhism then Sikhs are social workers in disguise. Do you really think that the concepts of Sargun and Nirgun excuse Sikhs from being intellectually responsible?


I dont thats all there is to Sikhism, I was speaking about this concept particularly. But in my view, being a Sikh means being a good social worker. 
[Social work is a discipline involving the application of social theory and research methods to study and improve the lives of people, groups, and societies. ...]

I think the concept of Sargun/Nirgun allows the intellect to expand. It does not excuse Sikhs from being intellectually responsible. Those who answer things with "God" are excusing themselves from being intellectually responsible. 
I think Sargun/Nirgun basically ends the "Is there a God debate?". It satifies both theists and atheists, allowing humanity to move to more important things including being more intellectually responsible, and social work like I mentioned in previous post.


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## spnadmin (May 13, 2009)

Bhagat ji

I don't know about ending the "Is There a God?" debate. It has been going on for thousands of years. It didn't end when Guru Nanak Dev ji talked about nirgun and sargun. It did not end when the ideas of nirgun and sargun were propounded in the Vedas long before Guru Nanak Dev ji. So it will probably continue after we are dead and gone.


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## BhagatSingh (May 13, 2009)

Antonia Ji,
Debates happen whenever two sides disagree.
But you're right. 
However, I think this concept was never too popular. People want definite answers and this concept doesn't provide that. It is also seemingly contradictory, human mind isn't fit for that. 
This is why it allows intellectual thought, whereas, a definite answer like "This is God and this is hwo he is." doesn't.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (May 13, 2009)

I have a few thoughts reading this.  They may or may not be relevant.  They are personal.

After the events of November 1984, which to me included the murder of several family members, I failed the chardi kala test pretty badly.  For a bit over 20 years, I lived life in a fog.  I fled family and sangat.  I broke most of the taboos of a Khalsa.  I threw away all of my kakkars.  To outsiders it looked like  I did OK.  I held jobs, supported myself, got remarried, did all that was expected of me and no one guessed that I was in a pretty deep state of post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).   But it was all very mechanical.  

Eventually, slowly, I began to awaken just a bit, just enough to see how crazy I had become.  Just enough to remember about something called "chardi kala."  Just enough to get homesick for my home among the Sikhs, my sisters and brothers.

Then I had a major stroke and died.  I can't say much about that except that I learned two things:  Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj (Guru Papa Ji) does not easily give up on his children and that each of us has inside an infinite well of this chardi kala stuff, sometimes buried deeply and seemingly unaccessable, and there.  Personally, I believe it is a gift given when we are blessed with Amrit and which we cannot lose.

From this long and difficult exile and an equally difficult return, I have learned - just for myself - that these intellectual debates/arguments/discussions are very interesting, and unproductive.  Perhaps it is better for me to leave threm to those Singhnis and Singhs who are more advanced than I.

The only thing of any value I can add to this discussion - I hope it is of value to someone - is that when my chardi kala was unavailable to me, I fell and fell and fell and was gently and lovingly caught and gently and lovingly nursed back to spiritual health and given the resources to regain much of my physical health as well.  I was caught and restored and have become a better person than I could have become otherwise.  In an odd way, I must be grateful to Akaal Purakh for what I experienced in November 1984 and after because I can see growth through this that I doubt could have happened any other way.

I doubt this has much to do with nirgun/sargun, and I wanted to say it anyway.

Regarding nirgun/sargun, may I suggest that "panentheism" might be relevant.  Maybe.

Chardi kala to all!  :ice:


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## mahanbir singh (May 14, 2009)

i think this is a very complex suject to understand God our creator with 5 senses. 
krqy imq nw jwny kIAw[
ipqw jnm ik jwnY pUq[
our 5 senses are so limited that they pick up only 10% of data from the universe. This creation itself is illusion it is Maya.
whatever our senses will pick up will be illusionary data. it is not the truth.
God has given 6th sense which is our intution which we hardly use as our mind talks us out of it. our mind does not like to be subordinate. it wants to controll. Ego in our mind drives our body in which ever direction it wants us to take.
Understanding God's Nirgun Saroop or what God was before creating the universe seems very difficult  for meto comprehend an ordinary mortal like me. I do not have superconsciousness as our Guruji's had in which state they wrote Gurbani. therefore for me to comment on Gurbani also seems to be a very difficult task
However i enjoy God's creation and also the unseen  and Formless God. i may not be able to define completely what is Nirgurn saroop but i know this is aboe 3 gunas of Maya. Although God residss in His creation He is nirlep un attached and above Maya.
i enjoy God's Nirgun Saroop when i consider that when i was a sperm of my father & ova of my mother which are both half the seeds , God united two half seeds & made them fertile and it became a whole seed as they contain 23 pairs of chromosomes.
it is God who ordered their conception, it is that formless God who crafted my body & your body in 9 months in my mothers uterus. i love Him because He is the first cause of my creation. 
i love Him when i wonder How He has filled one seed with the potential of producing millinons of seeds from one tiny seed. in one seed of a mango How many orchards of mango He has placed only He knows & He has made us to know that . How abundant is every thing for us to enjoy.
That is why i do not count the trees or go into the history How the seed was first created. whether it was the fruit first of the seed first. whether it was the egg first or the chicken first. let intelectuals work that out. i am not an intelectual. i am an ordinary man with ordinary intelligence. qUM smrQ vfw myrI mq QoVI rwmu]
Mahanbir Singh


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## spnadmin (May 14, 2009)

Bhagat ji

NIrgun/Sargunhas been a constant topic in theology from ancient times. It continues as a constant in all religions. 

There was a Catholic mystic, Bonaventure, a Franciscan, who in trying to describe these ideas used the term "Footprints of God." He taught that the Divine footprints were everywhere. This was back in possibly the 12th or 13th Century CE. Bonaventure was accused of heresy in the Catholic Church. Eventually he was exonerated. But back then it was a hot topic. I think it may still be. 

So it may not be as popular as a discussion of our favorite rock musicians. For the small group who find it interesting, we have forums like SPN who encourage discussions like this.


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## spnadmin (May 14, 2009)

Mai ji

You have stated in the context of your own powerful story these words: 
_From this long and difficult exile and an equally difficult return, I have learned - just for myself - that these intellectual debates/arguments/discussions are very interesting, and unproductive. Perhaps it is better for me to leave threm to those Singhnis and Singhs who are more advanced than I._

But if we take your recommendation to heart, then we should close down all religious forums and walk away from all discussions of religion. Or should we only talk about those aspects of a religion that are not spiritual or theological because they are more productive? Why are these discussions "unproductive?"  If they are unproductive then why do they continue? Could it be that for some people they nourish a part of the psyche and soul that yearns to contemplate something that is more vast than creation itself? Why do nitnem or sehaj path if we have not thought seriously about the words of our Gurus?


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## mahanbir singh (May 14, 2009)

Mai said:


> I have a few thoughts reading this. They may or may not be relevant. They are personal.
> 
> After the events of November 1984, which to me included the murder of several family members, I failed the chardi kala test pretty badly. For a bit over 20 years, I lived life in a fog. I fled family and sangat. I broke most of the taboos of a Khalsa. I threw away all of my kakkars. To outsiders it looked like I did OK. I held jobs, supported myself, got remarried, did all that was expected of me and no one guessed that I was in a pretty deep state of post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). But it was all very mechanical.
> 
> ...


 
thanks mai ji 
what a beautiful discription of happened to you.
you have infused Chardi Kala in each one of us.
This Chardi Kala is every thing.
Recently i got heart attack but this Chardi Kala has made me more healitier than i was before. physically i still have Angina pain every day with all the medication but i do not suffer. spirtually i feel i am on top of the world.
This is grace of Waheguruji. Our Faith in Him makes us strong & keeps us in Chardi Kala.
Thanks for writting that note. it was like a fresh air.
Regard
Mahanbir Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (May 14, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Tej ji
> 
> There are no failures in His eyes. He created his Creation and rejoices in it. We fail in our own eyes. The message from the eye to mind and the sense that mind makes of it sustains duality and with that the pain and fear of our inadequacy. It is easy to say this, to write it down. Much more difficult to live and act completely in consciousness. Believe me when I say this -- I am an expert at living in duality. Because it is so difficult, it is tempting to resort to constructing theories of His nature and remaining stuck in our intellects. Wish I had a way out, but for now staying close to Gurbani will have to be the means for the journey.


 
Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

Perhaps I was not able to express myself properly and I do apologise for that. Tumbles are not failures. They only show that we are not perfect and falling down is part of the learning process. It is not how often we fall but how quickly we get up, dust off and carry on which strengthens the spirit of Chardi Kala within. And the spirit of Chardi Kala is with how much dignity we are able to wear the robe of sadness and suffering when we are being tested on every turn of our lives. Thanks to Gurbani which not only gives birth to this dignity but also nurtures it.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 14, 2009)

I fall down 20 times a day so I guess.


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## pk70 (May 14, 2009)

"There are no failures in His eyes. He created his Creation and rejoices in it. We fail in our own eyes. The message from the eye to mind and the sense that mind makes of it sustains duality and with that the pain and fear of our inadequacy. It is easy to say this, to write it down. Much more difficult to live and act completely in consciousness. Believe me when I say this -- I am an expert at living in duality. Because it is so difficult, it is tempting to resort to constructing theories of His nature and remaining stuck in our intellects. Wish I had a way out, but for now staying close to Gurbani will have to be the means for the journey(quote aad0002 Ji)



 aad Bhain Jio
Every word of your quote is applicable to many and I am one of them, it is  singing loud into my ears that regardless I remain in denial, truth keeps smiling at me, reading them is like breathing the idea in which actually I need. Yes only Gurbani connects to the truth you have just expressed. Many thanks


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (May 14, 2009)

Antonia ji, you said;



> But if we take your recommendation to heart, then we should close down all religious forums and walk away from all discussions of religion. Or should we only talk about those aspects of a religion that are not spiritual or theological because they are more productive? Why are these discussions "unproductive?" If they are unproductive then why do they continue? Could it be that for some people they nourish a part of the psyche and soul that yearns to contemplate something that is more vast than creation itself? Why do nitnem or sehaj path if we have not thought seriously about the words of our Gurus?


 
I think you overlooked some key words in what I wrote 


> just for myself


 
I mean that most sincerely.  I encourage you to delve deeply into these meanings and share with me and the rest of us the jewels you find there.  I stand in awe of those whose minds can comprehend these concepts.  I would encourage these spiritual/intellectual discussions for those who can profit/learn/grow from them.  I will, of course, keep reading them.  (I have an inquiring mind, after all.)   I have learned some things are productive for me right now and some are not.   Just for myself, for now - this may change in the future as I grow, I get more out of naam-jap and the like than I do from these discussions.  Just for myself.

I am, however, I'm afraid, enamoured with my own words and simply do not resist the impulse to write them.  

Love and chardi kala to all! :ice:  (That's fat-free frozen yogurt, not creamy dreamy ice cream, btw.)


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (May 14, 2009)

Dearest Antonia ji,

And please let me add apropos your earlier comment




> I fall down 20 times a day so I guess.​


 
Is that all? Anyway falling down doesn't matter. What matters is that you have learned to get back up, brush yourself off, look at what each fall can teach you, then, with a smile on your face and love in your heart skipped off to the next stumble. Be gentle with yourself, please. (Maya won't be.)​ 
Ain't life grand!​ 
Chardi kala! Again and always! :ice:​


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## spnadmin (May 14, 2009)

Mai said:


> Is that all?
> :ice:​



Mai ji 

I am pretty certain it is not more than 20 times a day :}8-:


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