# Is It Possible For Poor Sikhs To Wear Turban



## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

:shutup:Here is the news of attack on sikh taxi driver

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Sikh taxi driver assaulted in Seattle- Hindustan Times
In what the police say may have been a hate crime, a Sikh taxi driver was brutally assaulted in Seattle by a passenger.
The 48-year-old driver, Sukhvir Singh, is in a hospital for kidney and respiratory damage caused by the attack over the weekend. 


The suspect, 20-year-old Luis A Vazquez, was released from custody on a $25,000 bond on Monday. He was yet to be charged, the Seattle Times has reported.

According to the police, Singh picked up the suspect in a drunken state at a football stadium on Saturday evening. Shortly into the cab ride, the fan began yelling obscenities at the driver, using racial slurs and calling him an "Iraqi terrorist".

At some point, the man began hitting the driver in the head and neck. After a while, Singh stopped the cab and got out. But the passenger followed him and continued to hit him.

The Sikh Coalition, which fights racism against Sikhs, has condemned the attack and urged prosecutors to charge the alleged attacker with hate crime.

In a statement, the Coalition quoted Singh as saying: "I am in a lot of pain and don't understand why someone would do this to me. I love America and hope that in my case justice will be done."
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Now please don't mind or get offended but my question is that possible for sikhs which are not so educated or rich and doing jobs like taxi or truck driver to wear turban.
Its easy for rich and resourceful sikhs to preach that all sikhs should wear turban but what about these people.The conflict between america,europe and islamic world is growing.
They see pictures of bin laden and other islamic terrorists in turban and whenever any one
of their soldier dies they will retalitae as there are many crazies in this world.So is it possible for them to wear turban if yes then what is the solution.

please comment


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## Randip Singh (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> :shutup:Here is the news of attack on sikh taxi driver
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sikh taxi driver assaulted in Seattle- Hindustan Times
> ...


 
The levels of hate crime were much higher towards Sikhs in the UK in the 70's and 80's. You didn't go to a lot of neighbourhoods.

We got through that so I don't think nowadays is too bad. Most people who are not ignorant know the difference between a Sikh and others.


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

randip singh said:


> The levels of hate crime were much higher towards Sikhs in the UK in the 70's and 80's. You didn't go to a lot of neighbourhoods.
> 
> We got through that so I don't think nowadays is too bad. Most people who are not ignorant know the difference between a Sikh and others.



Quite interesting but the question is that were those hate crimes specifically targeted towards sikhs or all migrants like pakistani's,blacks etc were also targets.Also did the turbaned sikhs were more vulnerable than clean shaven one


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

i really don't like the subject line of this thread.

just because american police makd a point to prosecute hate crimes and you see them on the news doesn't make them commonplace.  since 9/11 there have been a very small number of very highly publicised attacks on sikhs.    the number of actual attacks is so small it's really sad that people actually use it as an excuse to not keep their identity.

solution?

don't cut your hair, that's for sure.  take amrit, carry kirpan, know how to defend yourself if someone does harm you.  do your nitnem daily, do ardas, do seva, be an upstanding citizen.  nitnemi sikhs radiate peace, no one could attack such a person.


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

> i really don't like the subject line of this thread.
> 
> just because american police makd a point to prosecute hate crimes and you see them on the news doesn't make them commonplace. since 9/11 there have been a very small number of very highly publicised attacks on sikhs. the number of actual attacks is so small it's really sad that people actually use it as an excuse to not keep their identity.



Dear kelly

In every  month or so you hear such crime mainly directed toward turbaned sikhs and you are saying that numbers are small.The population of sikhs is small and more small is the the number of sikhs who wear turban if still these crimes are directed towards turbaned sikhs then it means a very very small minority is specifically targetted.



> solution?
> 
> don't cut your hair, that's for sure. take amrit, carry kirpan, know how to defend yourself if someone does harm you. do your nitnem daily, do ardas, do seva, be an upstanding citizen. nitnemi sikhs radiate peace, no one could attack such a person.



Its very easy to say but very difficuilt to implement.every sikh is not 6 footer macho.Look at
the news the guy is 48 and the attacker is 20 do you think that 48 year old has chance  if he is not macho.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

update:

the attacker has been charged with a hate crime, which means he'll get the most strict sentence possible if it's convicted of the crime.

Local News | Hate-crime charge filed in cab attack | Seattle Times Newspaper


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Dear kelly
> 
> In every month or so you hear such crime mainly directed toward turbaned sikhs and you are saying that numbers are small.The population of sikhs is small and more small is the the number of sikhs who wear turban if still these crimes are directed towards turbaned sikhs then it means a very very small minority is specifically targetted.
> 
> ...


 

hmm, i live in the US and i don't hear about them every month.  what is your source for this allegation?  in india?  sure, probably it happens more than once a month.  but in the west?  i don't believe hate crimes against sikhs are that common.


and 48 years old is not so old one can't defend oneself if one knows how.  what ever happened to one sikh equalling seva lakh???  you don't believe our Guru's words?


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

> hmm, i live in the US and i don't hear about them every month. what is your source for this allegation? in india? sure, probably it happens more than once a month. but in the west? i don't believe hate crimes against sikhs are that common.



Here is the site where hate crimes against sikhs are mentioned

SALDEF - Sikh American Legal Defence & Education Fund - The new name of SMART

also please read this

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City Of Tolerance? Apparently No 

Preliminary results of a study released today by the Sikh Coalition show that over 58 percent of Sikh students in New York City public schools have been the victims of name-calling, threats or physical abuse due to their religion. The report also found that more than three quarters (77.5 percent) of male Sikh students who live in Queens have been subjected to teasing or harassment, while 18.9 percent of Sikhs have been told they look like terrorists by other students. Many who have been harassed also said that their school administrators failed to provide any assistance following complaints. The report, entitled “Hatred in the Hallways,” was not scheduled for publication until September. However, coalition workers decided to release their preliminary numbers early in light of a much-publicized bias incident involving the attack of a Sikh student in his school bathroom.
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Isn't it figure 77.5% shocking.

kelly please don't take this thread as attack on america or americans.The truth is that there is undeclared war between muslims and americans,europeans is going on.Muslims beleive that everything bad is because of american conspiracy and europe and america is increasingly becoming islamophobic.In between this sikhs are suffering.The reason i started this thread is because i know that an educated,wealthy turbaned sikh could stand discrimination and hate and even drag culprits to court but what about turbaned sikhs which are  not so educated or not so wealthy.



> and 48 years old is not so old one can't defend oneself if one knows how. what ever happened to one sikh equalling seva lakh??? you don't believe our Guru's words?



It depends on indivisuals health.and i do beleive guru ji's word but i beleive they are more metaphoric in nature.It means that 1 sikh should have courage to face 1.25 lakh .i don't think it means that 1 sikh's strength = 1.25 lakh people.Taking amrit does not give you superman's strength


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Here is the site where hate crimes against sikhs are mentioned
> 
> SALDEF - Sikh American Legal Defence & Education Fund - The new name of SMART
> 
> ...


 

i see.   so you equate teasing or name calling with brutal assults?  i would guess that 77.5% of ALL teen agers have been teased or called names.  it's part of being in school.  it's part of life.  it's not at all the same thing as a hate crime.

i wear a turban, i live in texas which is considered to be a rascist state.  and honestly i've never had a single bad experience here, and neither has my husband (a turban wearing, open beard, punjabi sikh).  so you'll have to forgive me if i simply do not see evidence of your theory that hate crimes are wide spread in america.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> It depends on indivisuals health.and i do beleive guru ji's word but i beleive they are more metaphoric in nature.It means that 1 sikh should have courage to face 1.25 lakh .i don't think it means that 1 sikh's strength = 1.25 lakh people.Taking amrit does not give you superman's strength


 

so you think we should lie back and let people assult us?  are we buddhists or jains that we're not allowed to defend ourselves against an attack?

amrit may not give me superman's strength, but it does give me the knowledge that god is on MY side in such a situation.

we need to encourage people to learn gatka.  we have this wonderful tool to use in these situations and we're not even interested in knowing how to use it. 

suggesting that sikhs should cut their hair to avoid being harrassed is simply weak.  we are stronger than that.  we need to look at our history because apparently we've forgotten the people who DIED to keep their identity.  to give that up because of the vague idea we might be teased is just wrong.


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## Sherab (Nov 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> so you think we should lie back and let people assult us?  are we buddhists or jains that we're not allowed to defend ourselves against an attack?
> 
> amrit may not give me superman's strength, but it does give me the knowledge that god is on MY side in such a situation.
> 
> ...



Jasleen - I would watch how you insult Jains or Buddhists. The idea that Buddhists cannot defend themselves is completely FALSE.

If they are theravadin monks - you are quite correct. But please see the fighting going on in Burma with the Buddhists there, and how they are fighting back, physically. 

However, despite that - I agree with your post 100%.


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

> i see. so you equate teasing or name calling with brutal assults? i would guess that 77.5% of ALL teen agers have been teased or called names. it's part of being in school. it's part of life. it's not at all the same thing as a hate crime.


...

there is differencce between day to day funny name calling and hatred filled racial name calling,threat of physical abuse.In no time ugly abuse could turn into hate crime.



> i wear a turban, i live in texas which is considered to be a rascist state. and honestly i've never had a single bad experience here, and neither has my husband (a turban wearing, open beard, punjabi sikh). so you'll have to forgive me if i simply do not see evidence of your theory that hate crimes are wide spread in america.



Its good that you and your husband never faced anything.But if the situation is so good then why organisations like saldef are coming. the best information could give you on this subject is following blogspot

Into the Whirlwind

This girl is really amazing.She has taken the initative to show the people about the plight of sikhs after 9-11


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> so you think we should lie back and let people assult us?  are we buddhists or jains that we're not allowed to defend ourselves against an attack?
> 
> amrit may not give me superman's strength, but it does give me the knowledge that god is on MY side in such a situation.
> 
> ...



You are reaching conclusion too quickly i am  not at all saying that sikhs should cut their hair.but these kind of news make's me worry especiaally about poor sikhs.

And i agree with you that sikhs should learn martial arts but again the problem is that
many are not at all interested in it.


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

> Jasleen - I would watch how you insult Jains or Buddhists. The idea that Buddhists cannot defend themselves is completely FALSE.



What kelly is saying about buddhists is 100% true.Just read the history buddhists countries were unable to defend themselves first against hindu's and then muslims.As a result buddhism nearly wiped out from india and completely from pakistan,afghanistan.


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## Sherab (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> What kelly is saying about buddhists is 100% true.Just read the history buddhists countries were unable to defend themselves first against hindu's and then muslims.As a result buddhism nearly wiped out from india and completely from pakistan,afghanistan.



I agree some of it is true, but that is the past - now, in the future, with human rights - there is some resistance. I just take it as a personal attack as i had been a deeply involved Buddhist since I was about 12-13.

Although it's not an attack at all, i just don't like some of the attacks, is all.


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## Sikh80 (Nov 30, 2007)

I think the situation boils down to individual's response mechanism. But it is equally foolish to get beaten by a 20 year old drunk. A sikh , unless sick, at the age of 48 should have given a befitting reply. 
A sikh in India is as good as he is in USA. let us not start differentiationg between sikhs on the basis of the residence.


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

seeker07 said:


> I think the situation boils down to individual's response mechanism. But it is equally foolish to get beaten by a 20 year old drunk. A sikh , unless sick, at the age of 48 should have given a befitting reply.
> A sikh in India is as good as he is in USA. let us not start differentiationg between sikhs on the basis of the residence.



A lot depend on your physique,mental strength and health.if the attacker was over 6 feet broad shouldered muscular man then its really difficuilt for an ordinary person to defend himself.

And this thread is not about sikhs in india vs sikhs in usa.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Jasleen - I would watch how you insult Jains or Buddhists. The idea that Buddhists cannot defend themselves is completely FALSE.
> 
> If they are theravadin monks - you are quite correct. But please see the fighting going on in Burma with the Buddhists there, and how they are fighting back, physically.
> 
> However, despite that - I agree with your post 100%.


 


my point is not to put anyone down or insult any faith.  the truth is that it is part of their religion not to fight back.  however, we are not bound by such constraints.

i was in thailand when some buddhist monks were butchered by muslim extremists.  their reaction was to sit calmly, bow their heads and wait for the gunshot.  while i admire the self discipline that takes, personally, i would prefer to go out fighting.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> ...
> 
> there is differencce between day to day funny name calling and hatred filled racial name calling,threat of physical abuse.In no time ugly abuse could turn into hate crime.
> 
> ...


 

you've obviously never been a teenager in america/.  trust me, it's pretty horrible for ANYONE who isn't on the football team/cheer squad.    teenagers are cruel and vicious.  but once you get out of high school, 95% of that kind of behavior stops.   i still wouldn't call it hate crimes.


saldef and sikh coalition are fantastic groups who have helped sikhs a LOT in the US.  an acquaintence of mine is working with saldef to win her right to carry her kirpan at work as we speak.

but to say they only exist because it's so horrible to be a sikh in america is wrong.  i think it's much worse to live as a sikh in india.  at least here the government doesn't attack us.  mobs don't attack us.  the media doesn't ridicule us.    rather than saying saldef exists because it's bad here, i'd say it's better here because saldef exists.     just my perspective.


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2007)

> you've obviously never been a teenager in america/. trust me, it's pretty horrible for ANYONE who isn't on the football team/cheer squad. teenagers are cruel and vicious. but once you get out of high school, 95% of that kind of behavior stops. i still wouldn't call it hate crimes.



Quite interesting ..If i am not wrong  there is much bigger population of muslims living in america with many black muslims.I want to know that are they also targeted because of their religion.



> but to say they only exist because it's so horrible to be a sikh in america is wrong



Well i have already clarified my position that this thread has nothing to do with america.I have lot of respect for america and americans who freely allow sikhs to practice their religion rather than french and germans which are not even allowing sikhs to wear turbans.


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2007)

Also kelly mocking and teasing of sikhs because of turban is something that is not unexpected.The whole world has unwritten rule that if you look different you are an object of fun for people.The recent india australia cricket series is perfect example of this when indian crowd specifically targeted an australian player who has dark skin,lond trinidad hairstyle and he wear something white on his lips, by calling him monkey faced.These are same indians who shout racism racism but this time indians are exposed as racists.Now
Indian cricket team is going to australia and aussies have already threatened for payback.

So wherever sikhs will live chances are they will be teased and mocked by majority.


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## Astroboy (Dec 1, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> i really don't like the subject line of this thread.
> 
> just because american police makd a point to prosecute hate crimes and you see them on the news doesn't make them commonplace. since 9/11 there have been a very small number of very highly publicised attacks on sikhs. the number of actual attacks is so small it's really sad that people actually use it as an excuse to not keep their identity.
> 
> ...


 

I see Kelly's answer to make perfect. If someone made a similar comment about Malaysia, my country - I would defend in a similar fashion.


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 1, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> So wherever sikhs will live chances are they will be teased and mocked by majority.


 

so what's your solution?


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> so what's your solution?



1)Sikhs should be mentally and physically strong.mental strongness is  much  more important .

2) all sikhs should try to spread sikhism and create awaraeness about sikhism.It is a must and do and die situation for sikh identity.

3)The sikh who cut their hair because of this problem should not shunned down rather they should be approached and asked why they cut their hair and if possible try to help them


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## pardeep singh rakkar (Dec 1, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> :shutup:Here is the news of attack on sikh taxi driver
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sikh taxi driver assaulted in Seattle- Hindustan Times
> ...


Sat Shri Akal
We should educate our community in English countries regarding our religion and train them how to handle such situations. I am from New Zealand and a Pharmacist, but work as Bus driver part time. The same treatment I get from English ppl. But I tell them that I am a Sikh from Punjab but not a muslim. Moreover we should have more than two kids as we are minority in India and World. More kids means our religion and people would no longer be in minority in future. Educate other people aswell and aware them who we are. Thanks


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2007)

pardeep singh rakkar said:


> Sat Shri Akal
> We should educate our community in English countries regarding our religion and train them how to handle such situations. I am from New Zealand and a Pharmacist, but work as Bus driver part time. The same treatment I get from English ppl. But I tell them that I am a Sikh from Punjab but not a muslim. Moreover we should have more than two kids as we are minority in India and World. More kids means our religion and people would no longer be in minority in future. Educate other people aswell and aware them who we are. Thanks



Sat sri akal and welcome to spn

Thank you for sharing your experiance with all of us.The best solution is we should try to spread sikhism in whole world.If local people of other countries will embrace sikhism then
this problem will also reduce.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 2, 2007)

> Moreover we should have more than two kids as we are minority in India and World. More kids means our religion and people would no longer be in minority in future. Educate other people aswell and aware them who we are. Thanks



Welcome to SPN !

Totally Agree with your point . There is no reason for sikh to restrict their children no to two /or one  obviously if they can afford 

In the recent religion based concensusu in India   Sikh have least Fertility among all the religions and muslims have highest fertility which means sikh poulation is shrinking in India  and its much faster then we think it  is 

In Punjab two main reason : Family control measure have been very succesful. even in the remotest villages its very difficult to find any househould with more than two kids ( in poor community and so called lower caste community situation is different )

The reason is punjabis love for the SONS in preference to Daughters . In the past peopel used no family control and would go for as many many kids in hope to have atleast one SON in family ( I had a friend in my high school who had 9 sisters and he was the youngest kid , the tenth and the last one!!!)
But now punjabi are just killing all the girls and just geting their boys


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## kds1980 (Dec 2, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Welcome to SPN !
> 
> Totally Agree with your point . There is no reason for sikh to restrict their children no to two /or one  obviously if they can afford
> 
> ...



Dr.khalsa ji

What are you saying.Do you think it is possible. with more and more women opting for career do you think that sikh women will be ready to produce more kids.Also what about the fathers they have to work tirelessly to support their family.With today's world's lavish lifestyle its nearly impossible.For more kids both parents have to make lot of sacrifices
like previous generations.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 2, 2007)

Dear KDS ji

Your point is very valid !

I am just suggesting it people who can afford it economically and other wise also ( which includes personal preference , life goals etc)

I have many sikh collegues who are doctors and are willing to go more kids just because they can afford it .

You would be suprised to know that In UK many pakistani migrants deliberately go for more KIDS why ?  then Government is going to give your more support in terms of big housing benifet and more other benefits . So my point here is that its just perception diffrenece . Modern perception is less / no kids lot of time to shape up your life and more happiness  while some people just feel happy rearing thier dozen kids


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## kds1980 (Dec 2, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear KDS ji
> 
> Your point is very valid !
> 
> ...



Muslim families all over the world has lot of kids irrespective of whether government give support or not.As far as supporting is concerned its the rich people who have less kids rathen than middle or lower class.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 2, 2007)

> As far as supporting is concerned its the rich people who have less kids rathen than middle or lower class.



  This is what I am pointing  at 
rich ones or who can afford should have more kids


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 2, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Muslim families all over the world has lot of kids irrespective of whether government give support or not.As far as supporting is concerned its the rich people who have less kids rathen than middle or lower class.


 

this is very true.  islam teaches that God will care for them, no matter how many kids they have.  they're supposed to populate the earth.  so are christians, but in modern times only some christian sects (catholics, mormons) still practice this...


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## kds1980 (Dec 3, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> this is very true.  islam teaches that God will care for them, no matter how many kids they have.  they're supposed to populate the earth.  so are christians, but in modern times only some christian sects (catholics, mormons) still practice this...



The future belong's to these communities.Many countries are facing crisis of low birth rate but their aged population is increasing so obviously they will import people from countries where there is excess working population.


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