# Dilemma For Westerners: A Second Look



## Admin (Jul 31, 2009)

*Taken elsewhere from internet...
*


> Having been a former Catholic who left that religion in my early teens for reasons I won't get into here, and having lived as an atheist for over 20 years, I have had very strong 'spiritual awakening' over the last two years. I've been studying comparative religion intensely for longer than that, and feel an emotional and strong connection with Sikhism.
> Dilemma(pls. don't be offended): Sikhism seems the most paradoxical of all religions in that, on the one hand, it's remarkable for it's reverence for and pursuit of Truth, logic, reason, practicality, and has no conflict with science, equality for women, etc. It's not pacifistic, which is congruent with it's foundation in reality. I find it both amazingly spiritual, compassionate , and also cool-headed and ready to fight when necessary.. yes! Now -- on the other hand, from the non-Indian perspective: like too many religions, it's extremely ethnic and region-centric. Punjabi is a necessity to participate in Gurbani/Kirtan. Lacking monks and clergy, it's disorganized and lacking political direction or power. Keeping the 5 'K's is an example of 'ethnic and region centric ritual and tradition. It seems, to the Westerner, an anachronism similar to the costume and appearance of Orthodox Jews, American Amish (German origin Protestant Christians stuck in the 16th century living in Pennsylvania..), for example.
> 
> Can I become Sikh and raise my American family as Sikh, following SGGS and finding a local Gurdwara that will accept clean-shaven Sikhs? Do I and my family have to 'become' 18th century Punjabi in appearance.. to avoid discrimination by other Sikhs?? This is a real dilemma, pls. do not dismiss lightly.. didn't one of your Gurus predict over 900 million Khalsa one day.. but how will Sikhism grow and be 'universal' if it clings to rituals and traditions that are unacceptable to the vast majority of non-Indians. This is serious questions, pls. don't be offended. God bless you for reading this far.


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## Admin (Jul 31, 2009)

* This thread is copied from an existing thread Dilemma for Westerners. There is no redirect. Narayanjot Kaur
*


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## harbansj24 (Jul 31, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Aman Singh Ji,

Gurfateh

These are my personal views:

With Sikhism becoming global, it will have to adopt different languages especially English to spread Guru's message. In India for a very long period Hindi and Urdu have been used for this purpose so what is the problem if English and other languages are used? And right now are we not using English?

Even within families residing outside Punjab, the language of communication is often Hindi or English.

Dress has never been a problem. Men generally wear European dress along with a turban and beard neatly rolled up and pressed. They look pretty smart and women wear jeans, skirts, slacks or whatever even in Gurudwaras.

The only problem appears to be Kesh and that too for men only because they need to be covered. Women do not cover their head in India other than in Gurudwaras or in presence of Granth Sahib as as a mark of respect. Turban and beard seem to be the only problem for men. Perhaps this problem also could be resolved with time.


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## ja58ir (Jul 31, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Wahaguru ji ka Khalsa Wahaguru ji ka Fateh
Having born I a Sikh family I had to go through the hard time in the 1960’s but found that if you want something then it they for the taking.
As for the thought of have to keep your beard then that is not any problems as in the America they are many Sikhs how have transferred they religion for the better side.
To learn to wear the turban they are Sikh Gurdwaras all over the USA just go to them and explain that you wish to learn to tie a turban they will help you with all your needs.
As for your family they can and will see that Sikhism is not only a religion but a way of life.
As for read the Nitnam you can do that in English as you wish to praise the lord it dose not matter in what language it is prayed. It is how you feel about the prayers and not the way you say them 
:welcome:


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## harbansj24 (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

ja58ir ji,

What the anonymous person met was, that a white American wearing a wearing a turban would be queer sight in America and he would not be accepted among his peers in America both socially and at work place. And if does not wear it then he will not be accepted in local Gurdwara and by the Sikhs. That is the dilemma.  

This appears to be the only problem. As I have said earlier that this problem also with Guru's Grace would be straightened out with time. 

I guess this is a sort of brainstorming. So as a temporary measure can this suggestion be feasible?: 

The the man in his social interactions and at workplace can keep open hair  or in a pigtail or in bun just like Sikh women do and the beard can be suitably be set and pressed just as Ragis do. I do find many foreign tourist in India with this fashion statement! When in a Gurudwara or with Sikh friends he can put on the turban. 

Will this be acceptable?


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*



harbansj24 said:


> ja58ir ji,
> 
> What the anonymous person met was, that a white American wearing a wearing a turban would be queer sight in America and he would not be accepted among his peers in America both socially and at work place. And if does not wear it then he will not be accepted in local Gurdwara and by the Sikhs. That is the dilemma.
> 
> ...




Harbhansj ji 

I like the idea of brainstorming about this topic. It is doubtful that we ever brainstormed about this in the past. 

But I do have 2 reactions. The dilemma of a turban is not such a dilemma once a person decides - OK, this is what I am going to do -- tie dastar. It is one of those dilemmas that evaporates when the individual decides to take a stand one way or the other.  There are many white Sikhs who decided just that, and in spite of whatever problems come their way, persist with dastar, going about their business at home, at work, and in the community. The question of who thinks what about someone's choice to wear a turban tends to become insignificant for them. They just resolve the dilemma in terms of their personal conclusions about keeping hair, and to be consistent with the image of unshorn hair and turban that identifies a Sikh.  I don't have statistics -- but there have to be more "white" Sikh males in turbans, than not in turbans, because along with a beard it is the primary way of signaling that you are a Sikh. 

A thought on the side. Who started this "white" Sikh label? It has a life of its own any more. My guess on this is that just about every one who is a Sikh is on a continuum from very pale to very brown. Or am I in denial ?

My other reaction goes to your question "will this be acceptable?" No matter what the choice a person makes it won't be acceptable to someone. For example, if a man wears a turban it may please his sangat; but if his wife wears one there will be members of the sangat that think she is making an unacceptable statement. 

 So your original idea of using the thread to brainstorm about these dilemmas is the more fruitful way o generate interest and ideas-- as long as various readers don't miss the point -- it is about listing experiences and suggestions.


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## harbansj24 (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Narayanjot ji,

I like your enthusiastic support for for a Sabat Surat Sikh with a turban or Dastar. I was just thinking as a way out for the problem of the  anonymous Sikh in Aman Singh jis mail.

Now I will quote the experience of a distant cousin of mine who had emigrated to America in 1989. He is a talented and hardworking professional. He is a strict Sarab Lohi who knows Nit Nem and Sukhmani Sahib by heart and recites these every morning. On reaching America he posted  100s of CVs over the next 3 months and got quite a few interview calls by the not a single offer. His brother who had sponsored him told him that his kesh and turban was coming in  the way. His brother had shaved off his kesh. But this guy then chose to return to India and kept his kesh. It was a great struggle those days. He was without a job for a long time. Those days the economy was not good and they were days of peak insurgency and Sikhs were looked at suspiciously. But with persistence he got a job and is now well off.


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Harbansj ji 

Forgive me if I seemed like an extreme example of an optimist. There are some stumbling blocks in my experience and they don't quite show up in my response earlier to you. 

Not everything has a rosy color -- that I will admit. And I did not want to seem as if I was ignorant of the prejudice faced by Sikhs in dastar -- because I am not. My point was only that the dilemma is a dilemma as long as a person allows it to baffle them. Then decisions have to be made if a person wants to end the bewilderment and suffering.

There are Sikhs who came West from East who have shaved and don't wear turbans. That was the way they solved the problem of "fitting in" and getting a job. There are Sikhs from the West who are still Western (but born in Punjabi/Sikh families) who have solved the problem too. Either they keep kesh and tie dastar or they don't. And there are Western Sikhs who converted, who for the most part keep kesh and wear turbans, as I said above, mostly the majority of this group keep kesh and wear turbans. 

Each decision has its advantages and its disadvantages. There is no perfect solution. But the trials and tribulations of the "dilemma" go away once you decide --- This is it! I am going to do __________! You make a choice and understand the consequences. Keep your eye wide open. Make the adjustments that are needed. And then move on. Yes it may mean moving from West Virginia to New Mexico or California. Or it may mean working in one area of business rather than another. It may mean you go to a different gurdwara than the one you have attended for years.  Or it may mean some other kind of adjustment is necessary. 

But making a decision and then moving ahead in life takes much less energy than continual worry about whether other people accept you or do not accept you. And making changes is an option. That is all I can say for now. Once we put these problems behind us then we can move on to some much bigger dilemmas that face Sikhs in the West that cross national boundaries and also religious ones. 

Thanks for a good discussion.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

I know two Die hard taksali sikhs sarb lohis and all....who migrated to Canada/Germany..didnt get job offers as banna wearers...decided to shave off...still didnt get any jobs..waited around...trying to justify theur fall from grace....and FINALLY....came back to Malaysia..resumed their banna !!! A third such sarb lohi...stayed behind ONLY because he got  a job as GRANTHI in a Canadian Gurdwara..( he is an accountant)..shaving OFF didnt help him get  a job based on his Accountancy Degree either )
SO ALL this...is a MIRAGE....Kesh or no KESH..it all HIS HUKM. People may think..i got the job because i am bald..i am tall.. i am white.. i am black..whatever...but its all in your own mind...and in the mind of the one who hired YOU !! WHO put that idea to hire YOU in "his/her".. MIND ??????????????????


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh,

Allow me to pitch in with my take on this topic. I see this topic taken from the Internet a fake and someone who is anti Sikhi, perhaps not even an ex catholic.

Let us dissect this article:

To make it easier, let us assume that the person is a male. No offence to females intended.

The writer starts with a great input and shows how impressed he is with Sikhism and the qualities it presents:



> *Having been a former Catholic who left that religion in my early teens for reasons I won't get into here, and having lived as an atheist for over 20 years, I have had very strong 'spiritual awakening' over the last two years. I've been studying comparative religion intensely for longer than that, and feel an emotional and strong connection with Sikhism.*


 
One wonders, why wouldn't he give reasons of his leaving Catholicism and what does he mean by early teens? At 14, 15, 16?What made the person leave the religion at this early age and how did his parents take it?

Now comes the sledge hammer of his true intentions. He refuses to talk about the dilemmas of his own faith that he has claimed to have left in this early teens but here he finds faults in Sikhi where there are none. Let's delve into his article a bit further.



> *Dilemma(pls. don't be offended): Sikhism seems the most paradoxical of all religions in that, on the one hand, it's remarkable for it's reverence for and pursuit of Truth, logic, reason, practicality, and has no conflict with science, equality for women, etc. It's not pacifistic, which is congruent with it's foundation in reality. I find it both amazingly spiritual, compassionate , and also cool-headed and ready to fight when necessary..*


 
So far so good. Nice way to sledge hammer Sikhi comes after this wonderful true side of Sikhi




> *yes! Now -- on the other hand, from the non-Indian perspective: like too many religions, it's extremely ethnic and region-centric.*


 
The above statement is utterly false. SGGS is universally centered. How can a universal message of love, compassion, fraternity, brother/sisterhood and Sarbhat da bhala can be ethnic and region- centric? 




> *Punjabi is a necessity to participate in Gurbani/Kirtan.*


 
Sikhi is still a very young religion. The jealous forces in India which included the Mughals, Turks, Afghanis and Hindus tried to crush and eliminate Sikhi even before it was fully evolved as a way of life. The sacrifices of our Gurus and other Sikhs and the price paid by the head of our young lads and lassies are the proofs how the dogmatic religions of the time were scared, envious and jealous of the universal way of life which taught people to embrace all as the children of ONE GOD, none belonging to any lesser god.Sikhs were very busy defending the innocent women being abducted and raped by the fiends who called themselves religious. And due to the absence of any kind of hierarchy which was the great novel vision of our Gurus, it will take longer than other religions to have the right interpretations in other languages. We are progressing slowly.



> *Lacking monks and clergy, it's disorganized and lacking political direction or power. *


 
The writer fails to understand, hence unable to appreciate that this is the beauty of Sikhi and its biggest asset. Centralised power in other religions have led to all kinds of abuses, which included crusades, invasions, murders, rapes and last but not the least molestations of young boys and girls.



> *Keeping the 5 'K's is an example of 'ethnic and region centric ritual and tradition. It seems, to the Westerner, an anachronism similar to the costume and appearance of Orthodox Jews, American Amish (German origin Protestant Christians stuck in the 16th century living in Pennsylvania..), for example*.


 
The above statement is again finding faults where none exist.The writer ignores the facts that Orthodox Jews are the main diamond and gems dealers in New York and other parts of the world. The Amish have chosen their way of life and seem happy in their way but eventually they have to change their ways with the world.

The comparison of these two not only show the naivete of the writer but it also show the lack of any kind of understanding of Sikhi. Sikhs are very adaptable, that is why a Sikh can be found in any part of the world with the Baana.



> *Can I become Sikh and raise my American family as Sikh, following Sri Guru Granth SahibSikhs ji* *and finding a local Gurdwara that will accept clean-shaven?*


 
The poor writer either has no idea that there are half a million Sikhs from Indian origin are raising their families here or he is pretending to be what he is not. As he has shown his knowledge of Sikhi, he should know that people from any race, creed, hue and faith are welcome in any Gurdwara and if they are willing to learn, they are helped in learning about Sikhi without any preconditions. Secondly, an "ex- catholic and then an atheist" will never use the word CLEAN SHAVEN.So, the last part of his above statement has exposed him from his burrow. It is nothing but provocation.



> * Do I and my family have to 'become' 18th century Punjabi in appearance*. *to avoid discrimination by other Sikhs??**.*


 
Here he goes again flaunting his ignorance laced with arrogance with his taunts about the Sikhi Baana. What discrimination is he talking about? Does anyone have any idea about it? Hasn't he seen Sikhs of non Indian origins with Baana or has he ignored them for some reason only known to him?



> *This is a real dilemma, pls. do not dismiss lightly.. didn't one of your Gurus predict over 900 million Khalsa one day.*


 
I have no idea where he got the above from.

.





> * but how will Sikhism grow and be 'universal' if it clings to rituals and traditions that are unacceptable to the vast majority of non-Indians. This is serious questions, pls. don't be offended. God bless you for reading this far.*


 
The writer has shown nothing but bias, bigotry and flaunted his ignorance in the article, hence should not be taken seriously. We get many people like him on SPN trying to undermine Sikhi and are dealt with in the right manner.

I would request Aman ji, to find the name of the author and let us invite him here so we can have a direct interaction with him.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Harbans ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:


> *Now I will quote the experience of a distant cousin of mine who had emigrated to America in 1989. He is a talented and hardworking professional. He is a strict Sarab Lohi who knows Nit Nem and Sukhmani Sahib by heart and recites these every morning. On reaching America he posted 100s of CVs over the next 3 months and got quite a few interview calls by the not a single offer. His brother who had sponsored him told him that his kesh and turban was coming in the way. His brother had shaved off his kesh. But this guy then chose to return to India and kept his kesh. It was a great struggle those days. He was without a job for a long time. Those days the economy was not good and they were days of peak insurgency and Sikhs were looked at suspiciously. But with persistence he got a job and is now well off.*


 
I am sorry to know about your cousin, but I do not know anyone in my family, my relatives- close or distant who have come to the US with baana have found it difficult to get jobs as professionals. My nephews who are born here, some do not even tie their beards and are working professionally. One even worked for the Gap corporation and used to make 65k a year at the age of 24 and got promoted faster than non- Sikh Americans who had been there longer. His older brother was a public defender and now he working for a famous law firm in Los Angeles. One of my other nephews still works at a famous brokerage company which was bought by Bank of America when most of his colleagues who were not Sikhs were fired. I have many more examples like that.So, I have no idea what is the reason of your cousin not getting the job but I am certain that Baana is not to be blamed for that.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

The author of the article seems to have originated on the Sikhnet.com discussion forum. The name of the poster was "karakara." The question Dilemma for Westerner(s?) was posted almost a year ago in that forum. I will see if it is possible to locate the individual, however, on sikhnet as here, personal email addresses would not always be public information.

*Dilemma for Westerner(s?)*

by *karakara* on Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:02 pm 



You can read the ensuing discussion at the link posted above. If you are a member of Sikhnet and have an account id and a password there, it is possible to view the profile of karakara. It reveals very little.


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Tejwant ji

The original author of Dilemma for Westerners (karakara on Sikhnet) expresses concerns that "westerners"  have expressed before. I have even heard "easterners " Sikhs born into Sikh families and into Punjabi/Sikh families, express similar concerns. There have been articles written about how the exclusive use of the Punjabi language at gurdwaras has alienated the younger generation, and marginalizes the newcomers to Sikhism, etc. etc. etc. So the complaints voiced by karakara are not new. 

One thing any convert, newcomer, or individual attracted to Sikhism (from eastern or western cultures) should consider is the age old problem of pointing your finger at someone or some group in blame only to discover that 3 of your fingers are pointing back at you (  pardon this tired, old cliche, but it is true). 

All someone has to do to overcome the blaming syndrome is to sit alone, quietly and give some thought to the questions that perturb them. Ponder the questions. For example: there must be a reason why there is no organized clergy. Could it have been deliberate on the part of early Sikhism? How did it come about? Why has it persisted for all these hundreds of years? Maybe it actually is working out to be a positive thing about Sikhism. 

In other words --- take the question seriously. Assume that the "Sikhs as a group" might have made a conscious choice to act in such a stubbornly illogical fashion (according to you). Brainstorm why they did what they did. It is amazing how when we suspend judgment for even a short period of time we can actually see how  the patterns described and decried by karakara might just make sense. One could even take some time to Google the situation and get some answers from Sikh web sites, or even talk about these perplexing things with a "real live Sikh ." 

The answers are there. Personally, the worry I have when I read these questions is that we are hearing from someone who wants Sikhism to change for him/her according to his/her perspective of what Sikhism must do to be the ideal. karakara does not seem to think that he/she should be the one who changes or be molded by Sikhism. 

That is why I said, these so-called dilemmas evaporate once a person just makes a decision one way or the other. The real dilemmas in life never evaporate because they rarely lead to a clear-cut solution and are about moral choices that require some sacrifice of self to resolve. So far I haven't read any dilemmas here. Only difficult choices that require some personal sacrifice. 

Maybe we could list some real dilemmas for Westerners in the coming days.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Harbans ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Ji, Gurfateh Ji.

THANK YOU for putting the RECORD STRAIGHT.
Sometimes people who fail  find scapegoats where there are none...and the "banna" is one such scapegoat.

Once my younger brother was sent to the KLIA to welcome an American CEO of a large American Company who was due in Kl to negotiate a Large Defence Contract. My bro who is  a Banna wearer was at the airport anxiously looking out for the typical White Gora..when all had departed..only one was left..He was GORA but in White Banna with long flowing beard and he had been slightly delayed as he had to go collect his Kirpan from the Airline counter....as he looked around..he approached my bro and after exchanging Fateh mentioned to him that he was expecting someone to be waiting for him..and when they exgnaged names..my bro realised he was the CEO he was waiting for..what a pleasant surprise...I am sure all the Top Brass at the defence Minsitry would also been even more surprised to see a "White Banna wearing Sikh" accompanying my brother when they were expecting a suited booted westerner..

As susual people hide their own INADEQUACIES..under headings of Banna, long hair, beard, kirpan etc...and most of these are Punjabi Sikhs who want all the best of Both worlds...BLEND IN wioth the Majority and also "STAND OUT" as "SIKHS"..so they claim they are CSS - Clean shaven..sikhs !! what a joke. One can be just a SIKH. period.:happy:


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## AusDesi (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter. 

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in. 

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey. They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Aus Desi ji

I agree with what you are saying. Change is something that we can choose or something we can fight. Too many times I see people who choose another religion or ethical path, or make a similar choice,  and they continue to want to be the ones who move the chess pieces around on the chess board. There is more to this dilemma problem than can be summed up in what a person is wearing.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

<<But should anyone have to justify the decision to convert or continue to be an adherent of any formal religion? Why should someone have to do that just because someone else feels that being part of an institution is a waste of time? I don't know if you do see formal religion in that way.>>

ji

i absolutely agree that by denouncing religion, i am actually building another institution 

and i agree, everyone makes personal choices.

I amply made it clear that  am not make a stand of superiority. Just my opinions.

<<Beyond that observation --- the thread is about the dilemmas faced by westerners who are considering converting to Sikhism. How does asking "Why be part of an institution?">>

it absolutely is

the convert needs to ask himself/herself

whether they are going to follow Sikhi or be a part of the institution that Sikhism is ?

well, even those born in families who live in the institution need to introspect.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

<<How are you defining "institution?">>

i could write an essay

later for sure :yes:


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

OK then Huck Finn ji -- I would like to return to the thread's basic themes. The thread explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners"  in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism. 

Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."




AusDesi said:


> I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter.
> 
> Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.
> 
> ...



Questions for anyone who is interested to consider.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥ 
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. 
Siree Raag, First Mehl: 

ਭਲੀ ਸਰੀ ਜਿ ਉਬਰੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੁਈ ਘਰਾਹੁ ॥ 
भली सरी जि उबरी हउमै मुई घराहु ॥ 
Bẖalī sarī jė ubrī ha▫umai mu▫ī gẖarāhu. 
It all worked out-I was saved, and the egotism within my heart was subdued. 

ਦੂਤ ਲਗੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥ 
दूत लगे फिरि चाकरी सतिगुर का वेसाहु ॥ 
Ḏūṯ lage fir cẖākrī saṯgur kā vesāhu. 
The evil energies have been made to serve me, since I placed my faith in the True Guru. 

ਕਲਪ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੧॥ 
कलप तिआगी बादि है सचा वेपरवाहु ॥१॥ 
Kalap ṯi▫āgī bāḏ hai sacẖā veparvāhu. ||1|| 
I have renounced my useless schemes, by the Grace of the True, Carefree Lord. ||1|| 

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਉ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
मन रे सचु मिलै भउ जाइ ॥ 
Man re sacẖ milai bẖa▫o jā▫e. 
O mind, meeting with the True One, fear departs. 

ਭੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਕਿਉ ਥੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
भै बिनु निरभउ किउ थीऐ गुरमुखि सबदि समाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Bẖai bin nirbẖa▫o ki▫o thī▫ai gurmukẖ sabaḏ samā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Without the Fear of God, how can anyone become fearless? Become Gurmukh, and immerse yourself in the Shabad. ||1||Pause|| 

ਕੇਤਾ ਆਖਣੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਖਣਿ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
केता आखणु आखीऐ आखणि तोटि न होइ ॥ 
Keṯā ākẖaṇ ākẖī▫ai ākẖaṇ ṯot na ho▫e. 
How can we describe Him with words? There is no end to the descriptions of Him. 

ਮੰਗਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਕੇਤੜੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
मंगण वाले केतड़े दाता एको सोइ ॥ 
Mangaṇ vāle keṯ▫ṛe ḏāṯā eko so▫e. 
There are so many beggars, but He is the only Giver. 

ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਪਰਾਣ ਹੈ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
जिस के जीअ पराण है मनि वसिऐ सुखु होइ ॥२॥ 
Jis ke jī▫a parāṇ hai man vasi▫ai sukẖ ho▫e. ||2|| 
He is the Giver of the soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life; when He dwells within the mind, there is peace. ||2|| 

ਜਗੁ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਬਾਜੀ ਬਨੀ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਾਇ ॥ 
जगु सुपना बाजी बनी खिन महि खेलु खेलाइ ॥ 
Jag supnā bājī banī kẖin mėh kẖel kẖelā▫e. 
The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out. 

ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕਸੇ ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
संजोगी मिलि एकसे विजोगी उठि जाइ ॥ 
Sanjogī mil ekse vijogī uṯẖ jā▫e. 
Some attain union with the Lord, while others depart in separation. 

ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੩॥ 
जो तिसु भाणा सो थीऐ अवरु न करणा जाइ ॥३॥ 
Jo ṯis bẖāṇā so thī▫ai avar na karṇā jā▫e. ||3|| 
Whatever pleases Him comes to pass; nothing else can be done. ||3|| 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
गुरमुखि वसतु वेसाहीऐ सचु वखरु सचु रासि ॥ 
Gurmukẖ vasaṯ vesāhī▫ai sacẖ vakẖar sacẖ rās. 
The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital. 

ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥ 
जिनी सचु वणंजिआ गुर पूरे साबासि ॥ 
Jinī sacẖ vaṇaṇji▫ā gur pūre sābās. 
Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਛਾਣਸੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੪॥੧੧॥ 
नानक वसतु पछाणसी सचु सउदा जिसु पासि ॥४॥११॥ 
Nānak vasaṯ pacẖẖāṇsī sacẖ sa▫uḏā jis pās. ||4||11|| 
O Nanak, one who stocks this True Merchandise shall recognize and realize the Genuine Article. ||4||11||


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

*Again returning to the thread topic, 

....The thread (started by Harbhanj24 ji) explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners"  in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism. *

Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."

 ================================================================================================
  Quote:
                         Originally Posted by *AusDesi* 

 
_I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter. 

Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way. 

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in. 

What is holding them back? 

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey. 

What needs to happen in that inner journey? 

They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.

Do  the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison? 
_
    =================================================================================================
Questions for anyone who is interested to consider. ​


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

<<Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison? >>

Guru ji state in the shabd below,

it's the inner change that matters, not outer.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥ 
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. 
Siree Raag, First Mehl: 

ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਦੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਮੁਠੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ 
ध्रिगु जीवणु दोहागणी मुठी दूजै भाइ ॥ 
Ḏẖarig jīvaṇ ḏuhāgaṇī muṯẖī ḏūjai bẖā▫e. 
The life of the discarded bride is cursed. She is deceived by the love of duality. 

ਕਲਰ ਕੇਰੀ ਕੰਧ ਜਿਉ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਿਰਿ ਢਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
कलर केरी कंध जिउ अहिनिसि किरि ढहि पाइ ॥ 
Kalar kerī kanḏẖ ji▫o ahinis kir dẖėh pā▫e. 
Like a wall of sand, day and night, she crumbles, and eventually, she breaks down altogether. 

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਪਿਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ 
बिनु सबदै सुखु ना थीऐ पिर बिनु दूखु न जाइ ॥१॥ 
Bin sabḏai sukẖ nā thī▫ai pir bin ḏūkẖ na jā▫e. ||1|| 
Without the Word of the Shabad, peace does not come. Without her Husband Lord, her suffering does not end. ||1|| 

ਮੁੰਧੇ ਪਿਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥ 
मुंधे पिर बिनु किआ सीगारु ॥ 
Munḏẖe pir bin ki▫ā sīgār. 
O soul-bride, without your Husband Lord, what good are your decorations? 


ਦਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਢੋਈ ਨ ਲਹੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਝੂਠੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
दरि घरि ढोई न लहै दरगह झूठु खुआरु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ḏar gẖar dẖo▫ī na lahai ḏargėh jẖūṯẖ kẖu▫ār. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
In this world, you shall not find any shelter; in the world hereafter, being false, you shall suffer. ||1||Pause|| 

ਆਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਸਚਾ ਵਡ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੁ ॥ 
आपि सुजाणु न भुलई सचा वड किरसाणु ॥ 
Āp sujāṇ na bẖul▫ī sacẖā vad kirsāṇ. 
The True Lord Himself knows all; He makes no mistakes. He is the Great Farmer of the Universe. 

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਧਿ ਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਦਾਣੁ ॥ 
पहिला धरती साधि कै सचु नामु दे दाणु ॥ 
Pahilā ḏẖarṯī sāḏẖ kai sacẖ nām ḏe ḏāṇ. 
First, He prepares the ground, and then He plants the Seed of the True Name. 

ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਵੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੨॥ 
नउ निधि उपजै नामु एकु करमि पवै नीसाणु ॥२॥ 
Na▫o niḏẖ upjai nām ek karam pavai nīsāṇ. ||2|| 
The nine treasures are produced from Name of the One Lord. By His Grace, we obtain His Banner and Insignia. ||2|| 

ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਜਾਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਕਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਚਜੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
गुर कउ जाणि न जाणई किआ तिसु चजु अचारु ॥ 
Gur ka▫o jāṇ na jāṇ▫ī ki▫ā ṯis cẖaj acẖār. 
Some are very knowledgeable, but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives? 

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ 
अंधुलै नामु विसारिआ मनमुखि अंध गुबारु ॥ 
Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār. 
The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness. 

ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥ 
आवणु जाणु न चुकई मरि जनमै होइ खुआरु ॥३॥ 
Āvaṇ jāṇ na cẖuk▫ī mar janmai ho▫e kẖu▫ār. ||3|| 
Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3|| 

ਚੰਦਨੁ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਣਾਇਆ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਮਾਂਗ ਸੰਧੂਰੁ ॥ 
चंदनु मोलि अणाइआ कुंगू मांग संधूरु ॥ 
Cẖanḏan mol aṇā▫i▫ā kungū māŉg sanḏẖūr. 
The bride may buy sandalwood oil and perfumes, and apply them in great quantities to her hair; 

ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਣਾ ਪਾਨਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਪੂਰੁ ॥ 
चोआ चंदनु बहु घणा पाना नालि कपूरु ॥ 
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan baho gẖaṇā pānā nāl kapūr. 
she may sweeten her breath with betel leaf and camphor, 

ਜੇ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਿ ਨ ਭਾਵਈ ਤ ਸਭਿ ਅਡੰਬਰ ਕੂੜੁ ॥੪॥ 
जे धन कंति न भावई त सभि अड्मबर कूड़ु ॥४॥ 
Je ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāv▫ī ṯa sabẖ adambar kūṛ. ||4|| 
but if this bride is not pleasing to her Husband Lord, then all these trappings are false. ||4|| 

ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਾਦਿ ਹਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
सभि रस भोगण बादि हहि सभि सीगार विकार ॥ 
Sabẖ ras bẖogaṇ bāḏ hėh sabẖ sīgār vikār. 
Her enjoyment of all pleasures is futile, and all her decorations are corrupt. 

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਭੇਦੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਸੋਹੈ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਿ ॥ 
जब लगु सबदि न भेदीऐ किउ सोहै गुरदुआरि ॥ 
Jab lag sabaḏ na bẖeḏī▫ai ki▫o sohai gurḏu▫ār. 
Until she has been pierced through with the Shabad, how can she look beautiful at Guru's Gate? 

ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੧੩॥ 
नानक धंनु सुहागणी जिन सह नालि पिआरु ॥५॥१३॥ 
Nānak ḏẖan suhāgaṇī jin sah nāl pi▫ār. ||5||13|| 
O Nanak, blessed is that fortunate bride, who is in love with her Husband Lord. ||5||13||


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

<What needs to happen in that inner journey? >

Guru ji say


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲੁ ੧ ॥ 
सिरीरागु महलु १ ॥ 
Sirīrāg mahal 1. 
Siree Raag, First Mehl: 

ਜਾਲਿ ਮੋਹੁ ਘਸਿ ਮਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
जालि मोहु घसि मसु करि मति कागदु करि सारु ॥ 
Jāl moh gẖas mas kar maṯ kāgaḏ kar sār. 
Burn emotional attachment, and grind it into ink. Transform your intelligence into the purest of paper. 

ਭਾਉ ਕਲਮ ਕਰਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲੇਖਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਪੁਛਿ ਲਿਖੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
भाउ कलम करि चितु लेखारी गुर पुछि लिखु बीचारु ॥ 
Bẖā▫o kalam kar cẖiṯ lekẖārī gur pucẖẖ likẖ bīcẖār. 
Make the love of the Lord your pen, and let your consciousness be the scribe. Then, seek the Guru's Instructions, and record these deliberations. 

ਲਿਖੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਲਿਖੁ ਲਿਖੁ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ 
लिखु नामु सालाह लिखु लिखु अंतु न पारावारु ॥१॥ 
Likẖ nām sālāh likẖ likẖ anṯ na pārāvār. ||1|| 
Write the Praises of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; write over and over again that He has no end or limitation. ||1|| 

ਬਾਬਾ ਏਹੁ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
बाबा एहु लेखा लिखि जाणु ॥ 
Bābā ehu lekẖā likẖ jāṇ. 
O Baba, write such an account, 

ਜਿਥੈ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਇ ਸਚਾ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
जिथै लेखा मंगीऐ तिथै होइ सचा नीसाणु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jithai lekẖā mangī▫ai ṯithai ho▫e sacẖā nīsāṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
that when it is asked for, it will bring the Mark of Truth. ||1||Pause|| 

ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਸਦ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਸਦ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
जिथै मिलहि वडिआईआ सद खुसीआ सद चाउ ॥ 
Jithai milėh vaḏi▫ā▫ī▫ā saḏ kẖusī▫ā saḏ cẖā▫o. 
There, where greatness, eternal peace and everlasting joy are bestowed, 

ਤਿਨ ਮੁਖਿ ਟਿਕੇ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
तिन मुखि टिके निकलहि जिन मनि सचा नाउ ॥ 
Ŧin mukẖ tike niklahi jin man sacẖā nā▫o. 
the faces of those whose minds are attuned to the True Name are anointed with the Mark of Grace. 

ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਗਲੀ ਵਾਉ ਦੁਆਉ ॥੨॥ 
करमि मिलै ता पाईऐ नाही गली वाउ दुआउ ॥२॥ 
Karam milai ṯā pā▫ī▫ai nāhī galī vā▫o ḏu▫ā▫o. ||2|| 
If one receives God's Grace, then such honors are received, and not by mere words. ||2|| 

ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਰਖੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਵ ਸਲਾਰ ॥ 
इकि आवहि इकि जाहि उठि रखीअहि नाव सलार ॥ 
Ik āvahi ik jāhi uṯẖ rakẖī▫ahi nāv salār. 
Some come, and some arise and depart. They give themselves lofty names. 

ਇਕਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਇਕਨਾ ਵਡੇ ਦਰਵਾਰ ॥ 
इकि उपाए मंगते इकना वडे दरवार ॥ 
Ik upā▫e mangṯe iknā vade ḏarvār. 
Some are born beggars, and some hold vast courts. 

ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਵੇਕਾਰ ॥੩॥ 
अगै गइआ जाणीऐ विणु नावै वेकार ॥३॥ 
Agai ga▫i▫ā jāṇī▫ai viṇ nāvai vekār. ||3|| 
Going to the world hereafter, everyone shall realize that without the Name, it is all useless. ||3|| 

ਭੈ ਤੇਰੈ ਡਰੁ ਅਗਲਾ ਖਪਿ ਖਪਿ ਛਿਜੈ ਦੇਹ ॥ 
भै तेरै डरु अगला खपि खपि छिजै देह ॥ 
Bẖai ṯerai dar aglā kẖap kẖap cẖẖijai ḏeh. 
I am terrified by the Fear of You, God. Bothered and bewildered, my body is wasting away. 

ਨਾਵ ਜਿਨਾ ਸੁਲਤਾਨ ਖਾਨ ਹੋਦੇ ਡਿਠੇ ਖੇਹ ॥ 
नाव जिना सुलतान खान होदे डिठे खेह ॥ 
Nāv jinā sulṯān kẖān hoḏe diṯẖe kẖeh. 
Those who are known as sultans and emperors shall be reduced to dust in the end. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਸਭਿ ਕੂੜੇ ਤੁਟੇ ਨੇਹ ॥੪॥੬॥ 
नानक उठी चलिआ सभि कूड़े तुटे नेह ॥४॥६॥ 
Nānak uṯẖī cẖali▫ā sabẖ kūṛe ṯute neh. ||4||6|| 
O Nanak, arising and departing, all false attachments are cut away. ||4||6||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

continuing the previous post

what does the journey involve:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
आसा महला ५ ॥ 
Āsā mėhlā 5. 
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: 

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਜਾਉ ਤ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਕਰਤੇ ॥ 
तीरथि जाउ त हउ हउ करते ॥ 
Ŧirath jā▫o ṯa ha▫o ha▫o karṯe. 
Journeying to sacred shrines of pilgrimage, I see the mortals acting in ego. 

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੂਛਉ ਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਾਤੇ ॥੧॥ 
पंडित पूछउ त माइआ राते ॥१॥ 
Pandiṯ pūcẖẖa▫o ṯa mā▫i▫ā rāṯe. ||1|| 
If I ask the Pandits, I find them tainted by Maya. ||1|| 

ਸੋ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥ 
सो असथानु बतावहु मीता ॥ 
So asthān baṯāvhu mīṯā. 
Show me that place, O friend, 

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਨੀਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
जा कै हरि हरि कीरतनु नीता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jā kai har har kīrṯan nīṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
where the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises are forever sung. ||1||Pause|| 

ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥ 
सासत्र बेद पाप पुंन वीचार ॥ 
Sāsṯar beḏ pāp punn vīcẖār. 
The Shaastras and the Vedas speak of sin and virtue; 

ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਅਉਤਾਰ ॥੨॥ 
नरकि सुरगि फिरि फिरि अउतार ॥२॥ 
Narak surag fir fir a▫uṯār. ||2|| 
they say that mortals are reincarnated into heaven and hell, over and over again. ||2|| 

ਗਿਰਸਤ ਮਹਿ ਚਿੰਤ ਉਦਾਸ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ॥ 
गिरसत महि चिंत उदास अहंकार ॥ 
Girsaṯ mėh cẖinṯ uḏās ahaŉkār. 
In the householder's life, there is anxiety, and in the life of the renunciate, there is egotism. 

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਜੀਅ ਕਉ ਜੰਜਾਰ ॥੩॥ 
करम करत जीअ कउ जंजार ॥३॥ 
Karam karaṯ jī▫a ka▫o janjār. ||3|| 
Performing religious rituals, the soul is entangled. ||3|| 

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਵਸਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
प्रभ किरपा ते मनु वसि आइआ ॥ 
Parabẖ kirpā ṯe man vas ā▫i▫ā. 
By God's Grace, the mind is brought under control; 

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥ 
नानक गुरमुखि तरी तिनि माइआ ॥४॥ 
Nānak gurmukẖ ṯarī ṯin mā▫i▫ā. ||4|| 
O Nanak, the Gurmukh crosses over the ocean of Maya. ||4|| 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਈਐ ॥ 
साधसंगि हरि कीरतनु गाईऐ ॥ 
Sāḏẖsang har kīrṯan gā▫ī▫ai. 
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises. 

ਇਹੁ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੭॥੫੮॥ 
इहु असथानु गुरू ते पाईऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥७॥५८॥ 
Ih asthān gurū ṯe pā▫ī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||7||58|| 
This place is found through the Guru. ||1||Second. Pause||7||58||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

and once you start


ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 
गउड़ी महला १ ॥ 
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1. 
Gauree, First Mehl: 

ਪਉਣੈ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ 
पउणै पाणी अगनी का मेलु ॥ 
Pa▫uṇai pāṇī agnī kā mel. 
The union of air, water and fire - 

ਚੰਚਲ ਚਪਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਕਾ ਖੇਲੁ ॥ 
चंचल चपल बुधि का खेलु ॥ 
Cẖancẖal cẖapal buḏẖ kā kẖel. 
the body is the play-thing of the fickle and unsteady intellect. 

ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ 
नउ दरवाजे दसवा दुआरु ॥ 
Na▫o ḏarvāje ḏasvā ḏu▫ār. 
It has nine doors, and then there is the Tenth Gate. 

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ 
बुझु रे गिआनी एहु बीचारु ॥१॥ 
Bujẖ re gi▫ānī ehu bīcẖār. ||1|| 
Reflect upon this and understand it, O wise one. ||1|| 

ਕਥਤਾ ਬਕਤਾ ਸੁਨਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥ 
कथता बकता सुनता सोई ॥ 
Kathṯā bakṯā sunṯā so▫ī. 
The Lord is the One who speaks, teaches and listens. 

ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
आपु बीचारे सु गिआनी होई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Āp bīcẖāre so gi▫ānī ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
One who contemplates his own self is truly wise. ||1||Pause|| 

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਬੋਲੈ ਪਉਣੁ ॥ 
देही माटी बोलै पउणु ॥ 
Ḏehī mātī bolai pa▫uṇ. 
The body is dust; the wind speaks through it. 

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੂਆ ਹੈ ਕਉਣੁ ॥ 
बुझु रे गिआनी मूआ है कउणु ॥ 
Bujẖ re gi▫ānī mū▫ā hai ka▫uṇ. 
Understand, O wise one, who has died. 

ਮੂਈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ 
मूई सुरति बादु अहंकारु ॥ 
Mū▫ī suraṯ bāḏ ahaŉkār. 
Awareness, conflict and ego have died, 

ਓਹੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
ओहु न मूआ जो देखणहारु ॥२॥ 
Oh na mū▫ā jo ḏekẖaṇhār. ||2|| 
but the One who sees does not die. ||2|| 

ਜੈ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਤਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ 
जै कारणि तटि तीरथ जाही ॥ 
Jai kāraṇ ṯat ṯirath jāhī. 
For the sake of it, you journey to sacred shrines and holy rivers; 

ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਮਾਹੀ ॥ 
रतन पदारथ घट ही माही ॥ 
Raṯan paḏārath gẖat hī māhī. 
but this priceless jewel is within your own heart. 

ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ 
पड़ि पड़ि पंडितु बादु वखाणै ॥ 
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ bāḏ vakẖāṇai. 
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and read endlessly; they stir up arguments and controversies, 

ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹੋਦੀ ਵਸਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥੩॥ 
भीतरि होदी वसतु न जाणै ॥३॥ 
Bẖīṯar hoḏī vasaṯ na jāṇai. ||3|| 
but they do not know the secret deep within. ||3|| 

ਹਉ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੁਈ ਬਲਾਇ ॥ 
हउ न मूआ मेरी मुई बलाइ ॥ 
Ha▫o na mū▫ā merī mu▫ī balā▫e. 
I have not died - that evil nature within me has died. 

ਓਹੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਜੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
ओहु न मूआ जो रहिआ समाइ ॥ 
Oh na mū▫ā jo rahi▫ā samā▫e. 
The One who is pervading everywhere does not die. 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ 
कहु नानक गुरि ब्रहमु दिखाइआ ॥ 
Kaho Nānak gur barahm ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. 
Says Nanak, the Guru has revealed God to me, 

ਮਰਤਾ ਜਾਤਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੪॥ 
मरता जाता नदरि न आइआ ॥४॥४॥ 
Marṯā jāṯā naḏar na ā▫i▫ā. ||4||4|| 
and now I see that there is no such thing as birth or death. ||4||4||


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## AusDesi (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

I'll try to answer some of the questions. 


Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way. 
 Now I could take the easy way out here and say yes religious people are stronger. However, knowing a fair few Atheists I think I disagree. They are just as strong as religious people because they have nothing to turn to. 

However, it could be claimed that Atheism itself is a belief. So I guess beliefs make us stronger to tackle obstacles. 

What is holding them back? 
 Well its not an actual thing. its their feeling. Immigrants usually feel that they are not getting the same opportunities. Then that leads to a conclusion as to why they are not getting the same opportunities. 

Someone might say its because of the turban. Someone might say its their language skills. Someone might say its their name. 

However, there could be legitimate racism like Apartheid or 'Irish need not apply' but its quite rare in western countries these days. 

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey. 

What needs to happen in that inner journey? 

An inner journey is basically a way of us to understand ourselves. Most people will change during an inner journey. Changing of beliefs usually happen whether they are religious, ideological or moral. 

There are many films on this subject. Ali, American History X.

One of the best films on inner change/journey i've seen is Rang De Basanti. How a group of modern youth change seeing the sacrifice and beliefs of an older generation. 

Do  the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?
I am not sure what that question is alluding to. What outward signs supposed to mean.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for posting the Shabads. I admire your copy and paste skills. But, unfortunately your copied and pasted stuff is literal translation, not interpretation with your own thoughts. The fact is that you have posted the copied and pasted Shabads so you must have something in your mind that you are trying to convey. I would like you to interpret each Shabad in your own words in your own unique way( you did mention that you have a unique way of expressing yourself ), so we can all learn how these Shabads  have influenced you in your journey and how you are affected by them. 

As you may also be very well aware that most of the literal translations are incorrect and at times misleading, hence they will not be able to express what you true thought process is about them. Sikhi is all about sharing and thanks for doing that. I do appreciate it.

Hope to hear from you.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Aus Desi ji

Thank you for persisting with the threaded conversation. it is interesting that you and I have a somewhat different take on the quesiton Dilemma for Westerners? 

You are approaching the question in terms of a dilemma for those who immigrate to "western" societies. Reflecting on the problems that they face as immigrants having to 'fit in" to western norms.

I am thinking of the question as the dilemma of "westerners" who want to adapt to an "eastern" religion and the problems that they have fitting in.

It is really strange that we are coming from two opposing directions in the discussion given the first article is about problems of a westerner converting to Sikhism. BUT -- think. If we are coming from two opposing directions --- and we meet in the middle -- would we come up with a list that describes these problems of east and west as dilemmas that are common to all. If that happened, then WoW! we would have the diagnosis! Would it make a cure easier to understand and closer in reach? I don't know but sure would like to try.


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## liberate (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

Ultimately, being a Sikh is about a state of mind of purity and devotion to God. Outward appearance does not determine what the intention of the person is. Devotion to God and compassion is what Sikhism is about. There are plenty of clean shaven Punjabi Sikhs who are devoted followers of the Sikh teachings. Not all have the outward appearance. Whilst for some believers this is essential, for others, not so. Any Gudwara will accept you if they are genuinely following the Sikh creed. 

It is a wonderful path that you are embarking upon and good luck and blessings.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 4, 2009)

let me try and break up the dilemma into individual questions:

<<<<<Having been a former Catholic who left that religion in my early teens for reasons I won't get into here, and having lived as an atheist for over 20 years, I have had very strong 'spiritual awakening' over the last two years. I've been studying comparative religion intensely for longer than that, and feel an emotional and strong connection with Sikhism. 
Dilemma(pls. don't be offended): Sikhism seems the most paradoxical of all religions in that, on the one hand, it's remarkable for it's reverence for and pursuit of Truth, logic, reason, practicality, and has no conflict with science, equality for women, etc. It's not pacifistic, which is congruent with it's foundation in reality. I find it both amazingly spiritual, compassionate , and also cool-headed and ready to fight when necessary.. yes! Now -- on the other hand, from the non-Indian perspective: like too many religions, it's extremely ethnic and region-centric. Punjabi is a necessity to participate in Gurbani/Kirtan. Lacking monks and clergy, it's disorganized and lacking political direction or power. Keeping the 5 'K's is an example of 'ethnic and region centric ritual and tradition. It seems, to the Westerner, an anachronism similar to the costume and appearance of Orthodox Jews, American Amish (German origin Protestant Christians stuck in the 16th century living in Pennsylvania..), for example. 

Can I become Sikh and raise my American family as Sikh, following Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and finding a local Gurdwara that will accept clean-shaven Sikhs? Do I and my family have to 'become' 18th century Punjabi in appearance.. to avoid discrimination by other Sikhs?? This is a real dilemma, pls. do not dismiss lightly.. didn't one of your Gurus predict over 900 million Khalsa one day.. but how will Sikhism grow and be 'universal' if it clings to rituals and traditions that are unacceptable to the vast majority of non-Indians. This is serious questions, pls. don't be offended. God bless you for reading this far.>>>>>>>>>

1. Need to learn Punjabi to understand Gurbani - The question is that why it has not been made accessible to all in as many languages as possible.

Very valid concern and should be addressed. The True Nectar is drowned by the propaganda machines and should reach as many people as possible.

2. Ethnic domination of Punjabis - Most of the Rituals in the Sikhism that we see in daily life are heavily influenced by Punjabi culture. Punjabi language gives them a natural headstart and in many cases a misplaced sense of superiority that often comes out as condenscending behavior. 

This is a very valid dilemma, how can someone on connect to the true message when it is kept hidden by layers and layers of ethnic and cultural rituals.

3. 5 K - this is a highly debatable topic. Some have opinion that 5 K should be taken in spirit and some say in form. should a nepali sikh keep a kirpan or khukhri?

4. Accessories to 5 K - along with the 5K there are many accessories that tag along. Turban is one of them. Salwar suits and other punjabi dresses are others. Though dresses are less of an hindrance, why can't a British Sikh wear a hat to cover his hair?

Is it anachronism - maybe not because it's still contemporary wear in punjab, however it certainly is heavily region centric.

These find no reference in the SGGS yet are fanatically defended by the orthodoxy. This dilemma is aimed more towards the behavior and opinion of the orthodoxy in Sikhism.

5. Fear of discrimination - combined with the above, attitude towards sikhs who do not maintain external symbols is a valid dilemma for a person who is not born and brought up in the environment where he/she had a lot of exposure to sikhs.

liberate ji has put the answer to last point really well.


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## harbansj24 (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Dilemma for Westerners?*

liberate ji,

May be you are right for for the UK or American situation because there no one is concerned about your religious beliefs. It is strictly treated as your personal affair.

Here in India since mid 90s there is no discrimination against Sikhs either social or in the statute. In fact sometimes you given you are given more than your share of consideration which may be embarrassing.

But lurking behind this is a desire to bring you as they see it into "The mainstream". People will praise the ten gurus, Granth Sahib, "the hard working, honest and jovial nature of the Sikhs". But with all this they also chat you up on how Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion and that you are a Hindu just by being a citizen of India and that Hinduism permits you to follow your own personal faith etc. For any inaugural function it becomes necessary to break a coconut, light a lamp and recite either Vande Matram or gayatri mantra. Then a tikka is applied very lovingly on your forehead.

Of co{censored} they will happily participate on all the Gurudwara functions. Get you official patronages etc. But in one of his famous speaches Vajpayee as Prime Minister quoted Guru Gobind Singh's famous verse "De Shiva Var Mohe........". He then went on to translate it as "Oh lord Shiva please grant me your blessings....!" 

It is through such subtle actions, we find that a large number of Sikhs in India especially in Punjab have shorn of their hair, go to Hindu temples, Hindu places of pilgrimages and even follow their superstitions but still proclaim themselves as Sikhs. The rural Punjab has been practically lost to Sikhism. More than half of urban Punjab has also been lost.

It is for this reason that atleast in India, Sikhs need to keep a separate identity.

So why do I talk about this in a article meant for Western Sikhs?
Firstly because I do not know if it is possible to have one set of rules for Western Sikhs and another for Indian Sikhs and secondly also because liberate ji has not talked about the problems of Western sikhs in particular.

Ofco{censored} it is possible to follow Sikh philosophy without keepimg kesh but  then they will just like Sehajdhari Sikhs in India. There is no restriction on anyone of whatever faith or caste or appearence from entering and taking part in a gurudwara function.


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## Ozarks (Aug 4, 2009)

Sat Sri Akaal
It has been a while since I have weighed in on anything. I've been seeking and understanding more everyday and time tends to slip by. With that said I think I would like to jump in a bit on this one.

The truth is Waheguru does not care about your hair, your clothes, your jewelry or such. It is the condition within, and your actions without, that draw the attention of Waheguru.

When concerning yourself with "membership requirements" of any group you are seeking their approval and acceptance. If that is what is important I would say that a Western Sikh (maybe there should be a term "Western Sikh" instead of "White Sikh") should adopt the traditional styles that are popular or orthodox to the Sikh community at large. And should not worry about the opinions of others. This in spite of the fact that you are concerned with the opinions of others. In this case it is the opinions with those you would identify yourself with instead of your work/friend/school peers. 

Even then there is an odd bit of what is what with the 5 Ks. All of these are well known but I'm on a roll and your still reading so I will elaborate. 
1. Kesh - The biggie. It seems like that is the biggest hangup with some people. Why? That is a good question. It stems from some allegorical lines in the SGGS that are taken as literal. There is a bit of intentional separation here from some Hindus. 
2. Kanga - This is not only to tend to the Kesh, but is to show care for your appearance. As a social creature you should not look like a wild one. There is a bit of intentional separation here again from some Hindus. 
3. Kara - A reminder of your (slave like) devotion to God (and God's Will) and a reminder to do good with your hands. Over all not a bad thing and one of the easiest of the 5 Ks.
4. Kachera - Basically underwear (hardcore will go old school in style). No big deal here. Must have been a bigger deal when fewer people were wearing underwear. 
5. The Kirpan - My favorite. This one has some otherwise traditional Sikhs saying it "represents..." and can be a fancy butter knife basically. I think that is funny. Of all the Ks it is the one that makes the most sense and yet is sometimes marginalized as being simply symbolic. It is the "Hand of Mercy". When carrying the kirpan it is your duty to stand up for those who are being taken advantage of. You are the Hand of God protecting the helpless and afraid. On a tv show I use to watch a character said that Karma doesn't have hands so sometimes we have to be the hands of Karma. (paraphrased) 
What I like about the Kirpan is alluded to in the Bible. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. That was against ego. However he also said if you don't have a sword, buy one. That is to avoid being a victim. And its presence promotes Ahimsa. 

With all that being said a true Sikh follows Waheguru to the best of their ever continuing understanding and should not worry overly much about rules and committees setup to make rules and committees. Do not worry about those who do not accept you for who you are because ultimately it is not their approval you should seek.

Sat Nam


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## Ozarks (Aug 5, 2009)

A small side question stemming from my post to satisfy my curiosity: Would "Laindha Sikh" mean "Western Sikh"?


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## spnadmin (Aug 5, 2009)

Ozarks ji

You asked this question: A small side question stemming from my post to satisfy my curiosity: Would "Laindha Sikh" mean "Western Sikh"?

Answer: west   n. laindha pasa. M; lahinda. M;   west   a. laindha; (from the ijunoon punjabi/english/urdu online dictionary)

You may have noticed how  wild phonetic spellings used on the net really can make it next to impossible to learn Punjabi just by interacting with native speakers of the language. So get a good dictionary for now and take lessons from a qualified teacher of languages later if you decide that is what you want to do.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 5, 2009)

> Now -- on the other hand, from the non-Indian perspective: like too many religions, it's extremely ethnic and region-centric. Punjabi is a necessity to participate in Gurbani/Kirtan. Lacking monks and clergy, it's disorganized and lacking political direction or power. Keeping the 5 'K's is an example of 'ethnic and region centric ritual and tradition. It seems, to the Westerner, an anachronism similar to the costume and appearance of Orthodox Jews, American Amish (German origin Protestant Christians stuck in the 16th century living in Pennsylvania..), for example.


 
I'm a strong believer in that we need to change all this, and need to accept Sikhs at all stages of development. The Jews are a great example of this.

There are many facets of the Rehat Maryad (Sikh Code of Conduct) that are not compatible (if analysed literally) with modern living.

If you analyse the Rehat Maryada and see how much it has developed over centuries, I see no reason why it cannot develop.

Fact is, if we do not accept that Sikhs have a range of appearances and ways of living we will be releagte to yesteryear.

We need some core beliefs and people need to build on those.


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## Gora_pakora (Oct 23, 2009)

Can see this topic ended a while back.  But if the original blogger is serious about reading more on Sikhi, all you need to do is type in white sikh into youtube and you will get beautiful videos of white and black families from all around the world who have embraced this way of live.


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## Admin (Oct 23, 2009)

YouTube - BBC 2 Doc - American Sikhs & Yogi Ji

YouTube - Black African Sikh Brother

:happykaur::happysingh:


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## Satyaban (Oct 25, 2009)

Namaste

I have been away because I have been very sick but am now clawing my way back.


 Of course I am not a Sikh but for a reason I can't put my figure on I find the term "white Sikhs" distasteful. I don't think there are any mind readers here but perhaps someone with a different perspective could help my understanding this and change how I react to the term.

What if there were Chinese Sikhs would they be called "slant eyed Sikhs" or what. Why not just call everyone "Sikhs".

Peace
Satyaban


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## spnadmin (Oct 25, 2009)

Satyaban ji

So glad you have returned. I thought you were involved in a big project at work and were too overworked to post here.

I share you feelings about the term "white Sikh" but not because I find it distasteful as I find it confusing. 

It can't be about the wearing of whiite bana, though I suspect that is how it started. With Yogi Bhajan and Western Dharma - now Dharma International.

The problem for me is that it leaves Sikhs who are not Indian, but come from all over the world, as you say even China, maybe Japan, out on the margins. There are white Sikhs and ????? Sikhs ????? People from India are tan Sikhs I suppose. What about the jazz pianist Dr. Lonnie Smith, who is African American, a Sikh, and not a member of 3HO?  Where does he fit in. Is he a black Sikh? 

I wrote a too long post about this issue a few months ago. Don't worry -- it won't make any difference.


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## spnadmin (Oct 25, 2009)

Here it is 
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26124-who-are-the-white-sikhs.html


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## Astroboy (Oct 25, 2009)

> *but how will Sikhism grow and be 'universal' if it clings to rituals and traditions that are unacceptable to the vast majority of non-Indians. This is serious questions, pls. don't be offended. God bless you for reading this far.*


*What are the steps that could be taken to make Sikhi universal? Please comment.*

YouTube - 1 = 125,000


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## Gora_pakora (Oct 26, 2009)

I really think you are reading into things too much. Being white is something not to be ashamed of, and maybe its a cultural difference between the states and the uk

:welcome: :happykaur:


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## Satyaban (Oct 26, 2009)

Gora ji

:welcome: No skin color, ethnic group or tribe one is born into has nothing to be ashamed of. The issue I was speaking of was identifying by color in general. Doesn't what "white Sikhs" really mean is converts. Not with a negative connotation but "convert" just the same. Also being from the USA identifying by color echos of racism even when unintentional as in this case.

However since I am not a Sikh perhaps it is not my business other than the issue can relate to other faiths.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Gora_pakora (Oct 26, 2009)

I understand what you are getting at.  Its just sometimes we have to face, that in order for people to be identified, we have to sometimes use race.  And I would never have an issue with someone calling me white because I am. 

If an aritcle read convert, it does not give the reader any clue to what culture the person came from. 

You might have a point as I am pretty tired! lol


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## spnadmin (Oct 26, 2009)

But it is something we have to be careful. The word is misused and overused. The word "race" that is.

Jatts, Punjabis, Sikhs, Jews etc are not examples of "races" yet I have heard each group self-identify that way. 

The idea of "race" itself is scientifically ambiguous. The problem that I have with the idea of "white" Sikhs is that it is usually a reference to 3HO. But 3HO is a yoga organization. Some members are Sikhs; many are yoga teachers who are not Sikhs.The Sikhs of Yogi Bhajan (another bad phrase) refer to themselves as Sikh Dharma International (previously Western Dharma); and they are international.

I often wonder if the so-called "white Sikhs" headquartered in Espanola New Mexico want to be called that; but because they are non-confrontational people don't make a big issue of it. My experience is that they wear lots of different colors ; and there are American Nihangs among the group who wear blue. White is worn by the amritdhari, and by others, according to the occasion. 

Other white Sikhs include Nirmalas, Naamdharis, Nanskaris -- who all wear white. It is a very confusing term and I still am not used to it.

Some "white" Sikhs. Narayan Singh and 2 friends are waiting at the airport for their trip to Miri Piri Academy in Punjab -- boarding school.
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/index.php/2009/08/21/post-narayan-departure-blues/






 I
At a recent wedding: Some are wearing white; and some are not :inca:































                                                                                      From the wedding of Tej Kaur and Siri Chand Singh 
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/index.php/2009/07/04/wedding-of-siri-chand-tej-kaur/

The woman in*pink *in the front row is Sat Kirin Kaur, well known western raagini granthi of the Los Angeles Guru Ram Das Gurdwara and the mother of Gurmustukh Singh, CEO of Sikhnet.com.


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## Odion (Jan 16, 2010)

I know this thread is a little old, and probably done to death, but as a Westerner and non-Sikh-learning-Sikhism-really-really-considering-becoming-Sikh, I thought I would add my part.

I'm one of the younger, more liberal generation, at 22 years old. I studied in college with a lot Sikh people, there were about...50 or so (I think) who were doing the course that were Sikhs. Only one was a keshdhari Sikh.

I think it has been summed up excellently by other members. For the most part, it's kesh. For others it's the five k's, turban and how very few non-Indians are Sikhs and they would feel out of place (to me, this is strange as I'm not bothered about one's skin, race, etc), *but* speaking for myself the only thing that puts me off is kesh, and emphasis on wearing a turban when one's hair is long. Despite having long hair myself, I wouldn't want to have a long beard (they itch and I get spots and rashes from them, nothing like a spotty rashy face to make you feel beautiful! ) or be unable to trim the split/dead ends from my hair - especially when it seems to many that many Sikhi youth are cutting their own hair.

Another hurdle I have faced is I have curly hair. Very curly. 





Like this! Only, I'm not as good looking! :u):
Having hair like this, I have no idea how I would tie it in a turban, and when I comb it dry, it goes absolutely insane and sticks up and out. I have no idea how I would, could care for it when it's so... wild! 

When I first began researching into Sikhism, I found a lot of emphasis on kesh and the turban, and that one should change their name. Admittedly, this pushed me away. The other five k's I have no problem with, but being unable to cut/trim hairs, and how many change their last name to Singh probably puts a lot off - I know it did me.

I suppose there are probably ways that one can go around this, for example, adopting Singh as a middle name, and not becoming an amritdhari or keshdhari Sikhi.


Okay, so writing clearly is not my strong point. :shy: But I've tried to give my own experience regarding this.

I hope I haven't caused offence to anyone here. If I have I apologize as this was not my intention.


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