# Stop Disrespecting Satguru Nanak



## pk70 (Mar 6, 2008)

STOP DISRESPECTING SATGURU NANAK



It is seen and observed that people stray from the real principles of their religions.Usually it happens due to religion -competition as it is done in business marketing. In this context only those suffer who are really interested in taking advantage of the beautiful things in the religions they believe in. In competition, such advocates of a religion claim that their religion is the best. Here starts the problem of co existence. They high light the miracles around their religion; they issue guarantees that if their religion is joined, certain rewards or liberation are certain. Contrary to the religious approach, they are the one who lose temper, and some time all this  turn into violence if opposition is faced. I shall not point out this kind of behaviour in other religions but I shall deal this problem in my faith, Sikhism with examples taken from Guru Granth Sahib ji.
 The sources of history of Sikhs are infested with lies, cooked up stories and explanations which have shown seeds of illogical mentality and this is totally against Gurmat. Examples are many but I give you only one. It is about the writer Koer Singh who wrote Gurbilas patshahi dasmi he admits that he was a Sikh by name only. He writes that 10th Nanak worshipped Hindu Devi Durga in his previous life. It is an example of his extreme stupidity. How any one can believe that trash because in fact Nanak panth is totally against deities-worship, it is a pure blasphemy. There are others who write that Guru Sahibaan used to take” bhang” a drug. Then, a European, Trump who wrote about Sikhs with biased approach because while writing he couldn’t take out superiority complex about his own religion. He was though declared biased by another secular writer Macauliffe in His Book “The Sikh Religion”. Khushwant Singh (not a Sikh) called Sikhism as an off shoot of Hinduism even though it is written in GGS Ji that Gurmat disregards different practices of Islam and Hinduism. Story goes on. Guru -devoted or fair Scholars are still struggling to make things straight. This is the injustice we are already facing with, there are others who are bent on to distort Sikhism, I shall not discuss about them here at this time.

Now come to another class of Sikhs who take meaning of Gurbani literally and start their advocacy of calling Satguru incarnation of Creator. *Why so powerful The Infinite would come into a human form leaving rest of His creation unattended. Why couldn’t He use His power to guide His people through enlightened ones?  In this context, Sikhism stand firm on a reason that The Almighty is above birth or death.* As many know in Sikh moolmantra Satguru calls Him Akaalmurt Ajuni(beyond death and birth.). Still some Sikhs start taking a few lines out of context from Guru Granth Sahib to prove their maligning views right. Let’s see those kinds of examples if they support their false claim.
AS abiding by the basic principle of Satguru Nanak, 5th Nanak declares
ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1136}
 In essence cursed are those who say Almighty incarnates since he is beyond birth and death, He permeates in His creation) 
Now let’s discuss the following waak, Guru says that bani becomes Guru because it leads to Him.

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥ ਸਭੁ ਹੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਖਾਵਾਰੇ ॥  {ਪੰਨਾ 982}
In essence it says that Bani of Guru becomes Guru as it guides towards Him, as it is filled with ambrosial nectar. He permeates in every thing, one eats what is sown
ਆਪ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਧਾਰੇ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਦੇਖਾਰੇ ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੁਖ ਨ ਮਸਾਰੇ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1386}
  In essence He Himself supports the Universe, revealing His All-powerful Creative Potency. He has no color, form, mouth or beard.॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1386}
Another one below, in essence, numerous praise you but are unable to know you Who you bless, knows you.
ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅੰਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਸੀ ॥ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਹੋਂਹਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਸੁ ਜਨੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਮਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਸੀ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1386}

 In the following waak 5 th Guru praises Satguru Nanak but before it, grace of HarJi (God) is asked a kind grace.
ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਤੇ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਯਉ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਪਰਸਿਅਉ ਸਿ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਹ ਥੇ ਰਹਿਓ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1386}
 While praising Satguru Nanak, in Saweeye mukh wak Mehla 5, prayer is done to the Almighty to have grace and His acceptance. Then Guru Sahib says” who met Satguru Nanak got librated  because Guru Nanak guided him/her to Him*” Why again Almighty  comes in praise first then Satguru?  Answer is simple, Satguru is being complimented. Dominating factor is powerful Creator.*
Again prayer is done to Almighty, when Satguru Nanak is being complimented in high esteem. It goes on. Why then people ignore and stick to one sentence. They have same kind of problem to be in competition with others who call their prophets a God and religion the best one.
ਬਿਨਤਿ ਕਰਉ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਜੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਦੇਹੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਠਹਰਾਵੈ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1387}
 In above waak again prayer is done to Him to have His grace to experience Him as His devotee’s mind is happy and ready to see Him.
 In the following waak many get confused to see the difference of Guru and Almighty
ਬਲਿਓ ਚਰਾਗੁ ਅੰਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਲਿ ਉਧਰੀ ਇਕ ਨਾਮ ਧਰਮ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੁ ਸਗਲ ਹਰਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1387}
(in essence  Oh Almighty, Satguru Nanak who is like you, has dispelled ignorance in the world with your Naam just as a lamp is lit and darkness goes away.)
More
ਕਰੁ ਗਹਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਟਿ ਭਰੰਮ ਭਰੀ ॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1387}
In essence, Mercy on me o Almighty so that my doubts and illusions go away.
 Basically it is HIM only. Satguru is praised because he led people to Him.
The following waak makes it clearer
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਬਰਦਾਤਾ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਸਹਾਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਬਿਖਿਆਤਾ ॥ ਤਾਸੁ ਚਰਨ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਾਵਉ ॥ ਤਉ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1389}
  In bhatta sawayee Bhat says” with undivided concentration I meditate on the Giver who is support of His devotees and I seek blessing to praise Satgur Nanak”. *Why the Almighty’s grace is asked for to praise Satguru.if Satguru is an incarnation of Him*.

Now look the reality behind this, in the following waak holy persons like Ravidas, jai dev, kabir ji, all sing praises of Satguru Nanak Wait a minute, Kabir born before Satguru Nanak, how he can sing praises of Satguru Nanak. Answer is clear, Bhat ji is thinking that in after life these holy men are singing praises of Satguru Nanak who were guided people to be in love with Him. It is sheer a praise, a compliment the way we do of people we like, love and respect. Haven’t you heard people saying about their love ones after death” he/she is with the lord” 
ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ॥ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਮ ਲੋਚਨ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1390}
 Now let’s see what 3rd Nanak says
ਗੁਰ ਵੇਖਣ ਕਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਲੋਚੈ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਜਗਤਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥ *ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵਹਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰਿਆ **॥ {**ਪੰਨਾ 311}*
 In essence every body wants to meet The Satguru whom all solute. O Almighty it is your grace. You glow in Satguru and have done all this. *Actually it is you who have made Guru and it is your grace that Satgur is worshipped.*
Read more on this very subject
ਸਚੁ ਸਚਾ ਸਭ ਦੂ ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਲਏ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਟਿਕੇ ॥ ਪੰਨਾ 304}
 Again in the above waak, Almighty is praised. He is above all. Satguru just inspires and blesses.
Here Satguru Nanak expresses himself about the grace of Almighty
ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰੀ’’’’’’’
In essence O Almighty when you bestowed your grace on me then I eliminated ego completely (With his grace ego disappears.)
Examples in Guru Granth Sahib are numerous against these misguiding views.

……………..
*TOP OF PAGE*
In Guru Granth Sahib, besides praise of Satguru who leads to him, those are also praised who are in tuned with Almighty
ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 492}
ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਿਆ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 593}

Let’s read the following and find the meaning of “bani nirankar hai”
Before talking about Bani, 3rd Nanak praises the Almighty first, the people who praise Him.  In the following, then he praises bani which is a pure praise of Almighty and and says bani itself is Him because it is all about Him. Stress is on bani because its’ central idea, that is Almighty. If any bani is there but is not written in His praise, it is called false one. In bani there is not a single stanza where Almighty is not praised. Meaning goes on “No one is equal to Almighty” So Guru continues: Praise Him, it happens what he wishes. Praise His Name, people in tuned to Guru taste this ambrosial nectar (what nectar? Bani that leads to Him). Praise Him who is realized with His grace. Satgur says that the persons in tuned to Guru continuously enjoy Naam and are praise worthy.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰਮੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਏਇ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 515}
So by taking out just one sentence and doing an advocacy that goes against the Gurmat is best example of ignorance. Please do not disrespect Satguru Nanak who declares that the Almighty is beyond birth and death. That is a basic principle of Sikhism, period.

We Sikhs do not have competition with others. We are taught by our Guru Sahiban that the best religion on this earth is do HIS praise and *seriously to fall in love with Him.*
*We are well guided to co exist and what we should do is clear*; Following Guru waak says it all
ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਮੁ (GGS ji 266)
Of all religions, the best is to praise the Name of Almighty and maintain pure conduct this way.


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## Sardara123 (Mar 6, 2008)

With due respect for our fellow member PK70:

PLEASE FIRST UNDERSTAND WHAT GURU IS. 

You are disrespecting Guru Ji by making this post.

Guruship is passed on to Gurus when the Soul is ONE WITH THE CREATOR, WHEN THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE LEFT.


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## spnadmin (Mar 6, 2008)

pk70

You jump to conclusions sometimes. Let me give an example.

Is Satgur an Incarnation of the Creator?

 NO if you are Sikh of Shabad Guru. Then Sat Gutu can not be a human being after Sri Gobind Singh.

YES if you are a follower of another group for example Sant Mat. Then a person ascends to stage of Satgur.

If you think that someone is making this mistake, but you don't know enough about that person to form a conclusion, then you need to ask that person a few questions. Otherwise it is a personal call, a judgment. You might be wrong. 

This is a problem for me ever since i joined SPN -- every now and then there are criticisms of this or that, or scolding of this person or that person, without having enough information.

 If I have offended you, then please give me the courtesy of trying to find out more.


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> pk70
> 
> You jump to conclusions sometimes. Let me give an example.
> 
> ...


 
Aad0002 Ji,



This understanding that 'person' is Guru- confuses many people. Any realized soul is God Himself. There is no difference between God and that person. Gurbani: Brahmgyani aap parmesar(A God realized person is God Himself).


I put it this way:

Guru Nanak Dev Ji was considered a Guru by the public when they found Creator qualities in Him.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on Guru Gaddi to Guru Angad Dev Ji. So Guru Angad became Nanak and so on untill Gurgaddi is passed on to Guru Granth Sahib Ji- Now Gurbani is Nanak. So is every realized Soul. Nanak is the Creator Himself, present everywhere. One who realizes Him turns into Him. Gurbani confirms this fact over and over again.


Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Astroboy (Mar 6, 2008)

*it is about the writer Koer Singh who wrote Gurbilas patshahi dasmi he admits that he was a Sikh by name only. He writes that 10th Nanak worshipped Hindu Devi Durga in his previous life. It is an example of his extreme stupidity.*

Sardara Ji, 

PK70 Ji is right. I agree with him/her. Ram Rahim Puran Kuran.... is another verse which supports Pk70 Ji's reason to believe so. 

*Now come to another class of Sikhs who take meaning of Gurbani literally and start their advocacy of calling Satguru incarnation of Creator.*
I unanimously support pk70 on this.

*They have same kind of problem to be in competition with others who call their prophets a God and religion the best one.*
Wah Ji Wah, some troubleshooting has started. It's long over-due. 

*So by taking out just one sentence and doing an advocacy that goes against the Gurmat is best example of ignorance. Please do not disrespect Satguru Nanak who declares that the Almighty is beyond birth and death. That is a basic principle of Sikhism, period.
*PK70 Ji,


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

Mr. Namjap Ji,

What is Guru?  If it is not God then who is?



Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## spnadmin (Mar 6, 2008)

pk 70 ji





Pyramid said:


> Aad0002 Ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree that many people, many people, are confused by this. But also I am saying it is important to ask just a question or two to be sure we understand what a person really means.

These Satgurs in human form are actually very dangerous and egomaniacs as well. 

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to have a conversation about the issue.


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

Namjap Ji and PK70 Ji,

Why Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi to Gurbani, when It was registered in it - Bani is Nirankaar?

If Guru is not Nirankaar, How can bani be Nirankaar?



Waheguru


Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## spnadmin (Mar 6, 2008)

Pyramid ji

Thank you. I think I see now where we are headed with this.

After Naanak X -- Guru Gobind Singh -- there is one Guru -- Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- what we stipulate if we are Sikhs of Shabad Guru. It has to be this basic unless we want to go off in a 100 directions and start confusing the threads of an argument.

After this I am backing out. It is a settled matter for me.


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> These Satgurs in human form are actually very dangerous and egomaniacs as well.
> 
> Thank you for giving me this opportunity to have a conversation about the issue.


 
Aad0002 Ji,

These Satgurus(self styled) you are mentioning are disscussed in Gurbani. We are warned against anybody who call himself a Guru. Because a Guru doesn't call Himself Guru or God.


Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Astroboy (Mar 6, 2008)

Pyramid Ji,

Bani and Gurbani are two different things altogether. Your question :
Why Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi to *Gurbani*, when It was registered in it - *Bani* is Nirankaar?


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

namjap said:


> Pyramid Ji,
> 
> Bani and Gurbani are two different things altogether. Your question :
> Why Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi to *Gurbani*, when It was registered in it - *Bani* is Nirankaar?


 

What is Bani?
What is Gurbani?

If you consider them TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ALTOGETHER, you must have a definition as well for both.


Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

I just noticed a few days ago PK70 was misquoting Gurbani and then a wrong ang# was mentioned by him.

It seems like he is here just to misguide people. Namjap is already following a self styled preacher, good job. 

Apne Guru nu chhad ke PK varge de lar laggo.



Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru


Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Astroboy (Mar 6, 2008)

*Namjap is already following a self styled preacher, good job. *

Pyramid Ji,

I will not hesitate to delete your message/post if you continue to make baseless statements like the above against me or any other member.

SPN Rule No.2
*2. Unity in Diversity: *Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.


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## Sardara123 (Mar 6, 2008)

namjap said:


> *it is about the writer Koer Singh who wrote Gurbilas patshahi dasmi he admits that he was a Sikh by name only. He writes that 10th Nanak worshipped Hindu Devi Durga in his previous life. It is an example of his extreme stupidity.*
> 
> Sardara Ji,
> 
> ...


 
namjap Ji, 

I am not surprised at all. Good luck with all the koor he is trying to serve you in a shining platter.

I am out of it.


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## Astroboy (Mar 6, 2008)

Pyramid said:


> What is Bani?
> What is Gurbani?
> 
> If you consider them TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ALTOGETHER, you must have a definition as well for both.
> ...


 
One is read and understood while the other is experienced and unexplained. Which is which, you try to figure it out by yourself.


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## kaur-1 (Mar 6, 2008)

namjap said:


> Pyramid Ji,
> 
> Bani and Gurbani are two different things altogether. Your question :
> Why Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi to *Gurbani*, when It was registered in it - *Bani* is Nirankaar?



bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]
  	b*aa*n*ee* g*u*r*oo* g*u*r*oo* h*ai* b*aa*n*ee* v*i*ch b*aa*n*ee* a(n)mr*i*th s*aa*r*ae* ||
 _The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained._
 
guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5]
  	g*u*r b*aa*n*ee* keh*ai* s*ae*vak jan m*aa*n*ai* parathakh g*u*r*oo* n*i*sath*aa*r*ae* ||5||
 _If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||_

*SGGSJ ANG 982 SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge*


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

namjap said:


> *Namjap is already following a self styled preacher, good job. *
> 
> Pyramid Ji,
> 
> ...


 
O namjap Ji,

I accept the difference fully. I am only telling my side of the story.

There are many who disrespect Guru Nanak Dev Ji. They say He is not God, The Creator. Where Gurbani tells us He Is God Himself. Bani is Nanak Himself, and some people misquote it openly. They give wrong ang # for Bani.
They mistranslated Gurbani. They tell others to stop the correct interpretation of Gurbani. They threat those who understand Gurbani.

Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

ੴ  ਸਤਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਨਿਰਭਉ  ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ  ਅਕਾਲ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਅਜੂਨੀ  ਸੈਭੰ  ਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik*oaŉkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa*o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaŉ gur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

Mool Mnatra By nanak dev ji Maharaaj giving the attrubutes of The Almighty..


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

namjap said:


> One is read and understood while the other is experienced and unexplained. Which is which, you try to figure it out by yourself.


 
Namjap Ji, 

Thankyou for your answer.
It makes it clear the amount of the sense of duality you are feeding to your own mind. GoodLuck.

Guru has  figured it out for me already, there is no difference- All is He Himself, including you and me and our understanding, IT IS ALL HIMSELF. 

Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

॥ ਜਪੁ  ॥ 
जपु ॥ 
Jap. 
Chant And Meditate: 

ਆਦਿ  ਸਚੁ  ਜੁਗਾਦਿ  ਸਚੁ  ॥ 
आदि सचु जुगादि सचु ॥ 
Āḏ sacẖ jugāḏ sacẖ. 
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages. 

ਹੈ  ਭੀ  ਸਚੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਹੋਸੀ  ਭੀ  ਸਚੁ  ॥੧॥ 
है भी सचु नानक होसी भी सचु ॥१॥ 
Hai bẖī sacẖ Nānak hosī bẖī sacẖ. ||1|| 
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1|| 

The first Line of Jap Ji sahib Praising the Lord.

We have first three tuks or Vaaks by Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaaj  in SGGS ji, the highest scripture of Sikhs, that HE was and is and shall be the truth.
Creator and Nanaks are two different entities.


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

1.If Nanak is Nirankaar and Bani is Nirankaar; it amounts two Nirankaar; Nirankaar eulogising Nirankaar.

2.Jap Ji sahib is all in praise of the Lord. Thus nanak Ji has authored Jap Ji sahib and Mool Mantra stating that one should praise HIm.It is beyond human comprehension.

Hence Nanaks and God are two different entities.

The entire thread of Guru nanak is the Guru and the lord is all about this.


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## Pyramid (Mar 6, 2008)

Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches the way to know the truth- ALL IS HE HIMSELF through Japji Sahib.

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
saachaa saahib saach naae bhaakhiaa bhaao apaar ||
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.


ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥ 
aakhehi mangehi dhaehi dhaehi dhaath karae dhaathaar ||
People beg and pray, ""Give to us, give to us"", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.


ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥ 
faer k agai rakheeai jith dhisai dharabaar ||
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?


ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ 
muha k bolan boleeai jith sun dhharae piaar ||
What words can we speak to evoke His Love?


ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
anmrith vaelaa sach naao vaddiaaee veechaar ||
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.


ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ 
karamee aavai kaparraa nadharee mokh dhuaar ||
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.


*ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥* 
naanak eaevai jaaneeai sabh aapae sachiaar ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||

Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

ਹਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਠਾਕੁਰੁ  ਰਵਿਆ  ਸਭ  ਠਾਈ  ਸਭੁ  ਚੇਰੀ  ਜਗਤੁ  ਸਮਾਰੇ  ॥ 
हरि प्रभु ठाकुरु रविआ सभ ठाई सभु चेरी जगतु समारे ॥ 
Har parabẖ ṯẖākur ravi*ā sabẖ ṯẖā*ī sabẖ cẖėrī jagaṯ samārė. 
God, our Lord and Master, is permeating and pervading all places; He takes care of the whole world as His slave. 



Bani Of Guru Sahib's [ang 982] sating clearly that God is their Master.


[Creator and Nanaks are wto different entities.]


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.[19-7]


  From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.[19-8]



Nanaks speaking about the Creator.


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

Ang 922



1.The Lord placed the soul to the cave of the body, and blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body.


  2.He blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body, and revealed the nine doors; but He kept the Tenth Door hidden.


3.Through the Gurdwara, the Guru's Gate, some are blessed with loving faith, and the Tenth Door is revealed to them.

4.There are many images of the Lord, and the nine treasures of the Naam; His limits cannot be found.
     [ Nanaks explaing as to how this body was /is formed by the lord.]


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

He blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body, and revealed the nine doors; but He kept the Tenth Door hidden.
  [922-11]

[Nanaks explaining the dasam dwar as was formed and created for the Human beings ]


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## Sikh80 (Mar 6, 2008)

we are again entering into a controversy that is ill-founded. Pk ji has stated the truth and that all should respect. Even Guru sahibs have never stated that they are GOD.

They came thru. womb and died like any other human being. They were superior souls and guided us as to how to find HIM and merge with HIM. If a drop of water merges with the sea .,it becomes a part of the sea and not the sea itself even though it has all the qualities of the water of the sea. But is not sea.

Brahmgyanii may merge with the Lord..but He becomes a god -like person but he Shall never be that we call as 'waheguru'.

Bhul Chuk Mauf karni jeo 
and
Good Night. as per indian time.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 6, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> we are again entering into a controversy that is ill-founded. Pk ji has stated the truth and that all should respect. Even Guru sahibs have never stated that they are GOD.
> 
> They came thru. womb and died like any other human being. They were superior souls and guided us as to how to find HIM and merge with HIM. If a drop of water merges with the sea .,it becomes a part of the sea and not the sea itself even though it has all the qualities of the water of the sea. But is not sea.
> 
> ...


 
Sikh80, do you think that you can isolate that drop of water and identify it once it has merged in the sea. I would not think so!. It has no duality left. It is the sea. Similarly a Brahmgyani once merged with the Lord becomes Lord. Why struggle to understand what is beyond one's conception. Let nature take course. :whisling:

However this forum is capable of anything but develop their understanding.


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## Parma (Mar 6, 2008)

i agree with pk70. Guru means teacher in whatever light you percieve it does not mean god. Waheguru is ultimate teacher god. Wahe meaning amazing and as the word suggests beyond a description wow amazing. Guru put simply means teacher no other meaning to it. Does not mean god. Look it up. Waheguru means god. But that is written about differently waheguru is what the guru is teaching us about. The guru calls Wahe guru waheguru because it is god that has taught them what god is, god is self made they say self preserving no begining no end beyond understanding yet all religious men have been given a light. The enlightened are able to speak so because god has willed them to know him, its all his will. Limiting god to guru you limit god to just knowledge, yet the guru's have put god beyond comprehention, beyond learning and teaching. You cannot understand god, so why do people think to praise god with just the knowledge they have gained about god. Just praise god, with faith of the whole of your mind, body and soul. Peace be to all life


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 6, 2008)

Sardara123 said:


> With due respect for our fellow member PK70:
> 
> PLEASE FIRST UNDERSTAND WHAT GURU IS.
> 
> ...


People stop saying you disrespect so and so! What the heck? Noone is being disrespected in any way. God knows we are human beings and make mistakes and some learn from them. So chill! Forgive the person and move on!
Nothing personal Sardara.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 6, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Sikh80, do you think that you can isolate that drop of water and identify it once it has merged in the sea. I would not think so!. It has no duality left. It is the sea. Similarly a Brahmgyani once merged with the Lord becomes Lord. Why struggle to understand what is beyond one's conception. Let nature take course. :whisling:
> 
> However this forum is capable of anything but develop their understanding.


Ekmusafir Ajnabi, there exists this literary device called metaphor. When gurbani says Brahmgyani IS the Lord, it is comparing the Lord and Brahmgyani and is saying the Brahmgyani are great etc. Not literally, they are the Lord. How I know it's a metaphor? because everywhere else, it says you CANNOT describe God. A Brahmgyani with a form is very easy to describe. :wink:


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 6, 2008)

Pyramid said:


> Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches the way to know the truth- ALL IS HE HIMSELF through Japji Sahib.
> 
> ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
> saachaa saahib saach naae bhaakhiaa bhaao apaar ||
> ...


Hehe, nice joke :rofl!!:. I have no idea how you got this "Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches the way to know the truth- ALL IS HE HIMSELF through Japji Sahib." from that passage. Come on people, if you are going to discuss, then at least back your points with something that backs you up not the person you're discussing with.


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## spnadmin (Mar 6, 2008)

Jios and Baghat ji,

But The Wanderer is speaking the truth!



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Sikh80, do you think that you can isolate that drop of water and identify it once it has merged in the sea. I would not think so!. It has no duality left. It is the sea. Similarly a Brahmgyani once merged with the Lord becomes Lord. Why struggle to understand what is beyond one's conception. Let nature take course. :whisling:
> 
> However this forum is capable of anything but develop their understanding.



If The True One Himself is All, then All is He Himself. All is He Himself. It is a matter of finding that truth within. It didn't go anywhere. It is just hard to see because we are looking in the wrong direction. 

And....Naanak didn't leave us either... He is still here.


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## pk70 (Mar 7, 2008)

_First of all let me thank all who took time to read thread I started and expressed their views. That is why this Site is great I feel. According to what I think, the people who strongly disagreed with me really deserve answers to their questions. I am not here to judge people,as some did since Gurbani discourages it._
_I shall start with sardara123, he wrote_

PLEASE FIRST UNDERSTAND WHAT GURU IS. 

You are disrespecting Guru Ji by making this post.

Guruship is passed on to Gurus when the Soul is ONE WITH THE CREATOR, WHEN THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE LEFT."
_Sir, be my teacher in this regard, let me tell you what your ignorant student(me) knows About Guru._
_Guru Granth Sahib is my Guru. I am saved and guided by GGS ji in the past and presently. With GGS Ji’s guidance I have learnt to battle with the primal forces, to keep always Guru Shabad as my light to live in His creation and face challenges. I have learnt what I have shared with you not from any preacher or scholar but GGS ji. As guided by Guru ji, WAHEGURU doesn’t incarnate. I adore my Guru, respect my Guru  (to very high esteem) but my aim of life is HIM as stated by Guru. Why? Here is Hukam_
Bharo mehla 1 ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਮੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਰਾਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ11 1126 ( in essence that I like those who by over coming their ego and fall in love with Waheguru and live according to Gurmat) How dare I disobey this Hukam of Satguru Nanak? Satguru asks us to be in love with HIM period.
_If I missed any thing, your enlightened vision is welcome, _

Next is pyramid ji

_With all due respect, pyramid ji_
_I urge you to reread your comments about namjap and me. They are a sheer display of your anger and frustration. Gursikhs do not do that, remember, never forget what Satguru has taught us, by merely calling Guru God will take you know where. Satguru Nanak’s identity was kept well by all Satguru Sahiban, no doubt. Guru Granth is “pargat guran kid eh” literally IT is them. With what reason you call Satguru Nanak God Himself ? The word  'Himself' is questionable because about this Himself Satguru declares in Moolmantra that He is beyond birth and death. Gurbani simply states that one who is lost in Him becomes *LIKE Hiim*_
_When Gurbani states that HE is every where, there is nothing but Him, obviously it describes His Infinity. Here His being present every where and it also proves that He *doesn’t take birth individually.* You tell the learners, they will worship only Bani and Satguru and will ignore HIM. Satguru asked people to read Vedas because in there also HIS praise is vital. A Sikh should give up all other things that come in the way of falling in love with Him, whatever it is. There are many ways to adore and respect Satguru Sahbad but never ever say He came individually on earth. Following is your quote I referred _

_“Guru Nanak Dev Ji was considered a Guru by the public when they found Creator qualities in Him._
_Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on Guru Gaddi to Guru Angad Dev Ji. So Guru Angad became Nanak and so on untill Gurgaddi is passed on to Guru Granth Sahib Ji- Now Gurbani is Nanak. So is every realized Soul. Nanak is the Creator Himself, present everywhere. One who realizes Him turns into Him. Gurbani confirms this fact over and over again.paramyd_
_This understanding that 'person' is Guru- confuses many people. Any realized soul is God Himself. There is no difference between God and that person. Gurbani: Brahmgyani aap parmesar(A God realized person is God Himself)._
_Pyramid_
What is Guru? If it is not God then who is? Pyramid”

In various Shabad Guru word was used for the one who enlightens others by being lost in HIM and also in context of the Almighty who blesses those who stay in tuned to Him with His grace and makes available His Nam through the enlightened ones. Remember even the enlightened ones *can have only His two qualities, being fearless and without any enmity. Satguru that is why gives stress on only HIM*
*Here is Satguru bachan*

ਹਰਿ ਪੜਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੁਝਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਰਖਹੁ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥੫੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 937)
_( in essence only He should be meditated on, only His love be in mind, only His memory be in mind since He is my support) Note I avoid word by word translation because English cannot express it in complete sense due to many reasons)_

Pyramid again
“ I just noticed a few days ago PK70 was misquoting Gurbani and then a wrong ang# was mentioned by him
It seems like he is here just to misguide people. Namjap is already following a self styled preacher, good job. 

Apne Guru nu chhad ke PK varge de lar laggo.
Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru”

_M_any times, I type "meditate as medtiate and through as throw"does it mean I am not aware of these common place words? Mistakes happen while typing and thinking together without taking much time to consult references. Being new to this site I even didnt know that people on this site just copy and paste material on site, Sikh 80 made me realized that. I just used to write and read. When I saw totally distorted meaning of Gurbani, I just try to point out. I didn’t know people on this site will take personally. Look how easily they lose cool ;one example say it all, read   your own words above.
For that misquote/or wrong page, I apologized, if you want me to do that for your pleasure again, I can do that. Typing but not consulting is no excuse, I believe too. Following is good for both of us.
ਤਾ ਕਉ ਸਮਝਾਵਣ ਜਾਈਐ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੂਲਾ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲ ਕਰੇ ਸਭ ਕਰਤਾ ਐਸਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੩॥ ॥੪॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1329)
In essence:we should go to guide some one then if one is lost, it is just all His play, a few understand that)

Aad0002

_Is Satgur an Incarnation of the Creator?_

_NO if you are Sikh of Shabad Guru. Then Sat Guru can not be a human being after Sri Gobind Singh._


_YES if you are a follower of another group for example Sant Mat. Then a person ascends to stage of Satgur.aad0002_

_Aad0002 ji_

_I agree but respectfully disagree because the thread was not about immortality of _
_Satguru Nanak._


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## AmbarDhara (Mar 7, 2008)

PK 70 Ji,

Only a friendly suggestion:

Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us again and again that there is NO DISTINCTION between GURU and GOD. 

Yes GOD doesnt Incarnate, So is Guru. GURU IS GOD HIMSELF, HE DOESN'T INCARNATE. GURU IS GOD, GOD IS GURU. GOD IS EVERYTHING. GOD IS GURU, GOD IS CHELA TOO. 

From my previous experience with you, I know you will find all the non related things to argue about. I am posting this for all- So that people can see both sides of the coin.

By making non gurmat statements you are disrespecting Guru Ji. In your very first post only one line that you put in bold too tells everybody what is going on:
*


			
				PK70 said:
			
		


Why so powerful The Infinite would come into a human form leaving rest of His creation unattended.

Click to expand...

* 
This statement is enough for a reader to know that you dont know Gurmat. 

This is simply a friendly suggestion.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 7, 2008)

Dear all,

Just as a new born female goes through different transitions in her life from being a

Daughter -  Sister -  Wife -  Mother - Grandmother

So is the term Guru. People with a different mind set/spiritual conquest,  will define Guru as per their view/understanding. None of you are wrong in that sense. On the point of disrespecting, you are all disrespecting not only SGGS but also our Gurus. Your understanding is very low. So grow up and behave like responsible students/ Sikhs of SGGS.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## pk70 (Mar 7, 2008)

AmbarDhara said:


> PK 70 Ji,
> 
> Only a friendly suggestion:
> 
> ...


 
amberdhara ji

THANKS FOR THE JUDGEMENT YOU HAVE GIVEN ON ME !! May WAHEGURU bless you for that !


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## AmbarDhara (Mar 7, 2008)

We been told by Guru Ji several times that there is no difference between Guru and God, Guru God and Disciple and all. Guru Ji never ever said that -THERE IS ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL! 
Following is one out of the many beautiful verses where we are told:


Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 77
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 
ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥ 
chouthhai peharai rain kai vanajaariaa mithraa har chalan vaelaa aadhee ||
In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord announces the time of departure.​ 

ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥ 
kar saevahu pooraa sathiguroo vanajaariaa mithraa sabh chalee rain vihaadhee ||
Serve the Perfect True Guru, O my merchant friend; your entire life-night is passing away.​ 

ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥ 
har saevahu khin khin dtil mool n karihu jith asathhir jug jug hovahu ||
Serve the Lord each and every instant-do not delay! You shall become eternal throughout the ages.​ 

ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥ 
har saethee sadh maanahu raleeaa janam maran dhukh khovahu ||
Enjoy ecstasy forever with the Lord, and do away with the pains of birth and death.​ 

*ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥ *
*gur sathigur suaamee bhaedh n jaanahu jith mil har bhagath sukhaandhee ||*
*Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lord's devotional service.*​ 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥ 
kahu naanak praanee chouthhai peharai safalio rain bhagathaa dhee ||4||1||3||
Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. ||4||1||3||​ 
Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​


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## spnadmin (Mar 7, 2008)

Does anyone else see this a very unusual discussion at many levels?


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 7, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Does anyone else see this a very unusual discussion at many levels?


Yes, I feel this is pointless.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 7, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Jios and Baghat ji,
> 
> But The Wanderer is speaking the truth!
> 
> ...


Aad Ji I think, my name is getting hard for you to spell, even though it is written in every post of mine, so I'll give you a simpler version of the name, Bhagat... too bad there isnt any. Hehe


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## spnadmin (Mar 7, 2008)

No ji!

Nothing will help. Spelling is an area of personal disability. I read and write in more than one language. My spelling is simply atrocious in all languages. I will try harder.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Mar 7, 2008)

isn't God without malice?

so what is the point of dis respect?

this is the ego of the so called seekers which is getting hurt...


ਗਉੜੀ ॥ 
गउड़ी ॥ 
Ga&shy;oṛī. 
Gauree: 

ਨਿੰਦਉ ਨਿੰਦਉ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਲੋਗੁ ਨਿੰਦਉ ॥ 
निंदउ निंदउ मो कउ लोगु निंदउ ॥ 
Ninḏa&shy;o ninḏa&shy;o mo ka&shy;o log ninḏa&shy;o. 
Slander me, slander me - go ahead, people, and slander me. 

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਖਰੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥ 
निंदा जन कउ खरी पिआरी ॥ 
Ninḏā jan ka&shy;o kẖarī pi&shy;ārī. 
Slander is pleasing to the Lord's humble servant. 

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਮਹਤਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
निंदा बापु निंदा महतारी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ninḏā bāp ninḏā mehṯārī. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
Slander is my father, slander is my mother. ||1||Pause|| 

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ 
निंदा होइ त बैकुंठि जाईऐ ॥ 
Ninḏā ho&shy;ė ṯa baikunṯẖ jā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
If I am slandered, I go to heaven; 

ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਸਾਈਐ ॥ 
नामु पदारथु मनहि बसाईऐ ॥ 
Nām paḏārath maneh basā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
the wealth of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides within my mind. 

ਰਿਦੈ ਸੁਧ ਜਉ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
रिदै सुध जउ निंदा होइ ॥ 
Riḏai suḏẖ ja&shy;o ninḏā ho&shy;ė. 
If my heart is pure, and I am slandered, 

ਹਮਰੇ ਕਪਰੇ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥ 
हमरे कपरे निंदकु धोइ ॥१॥ 
Hamrė kaprė ninḏak ḏẖo&shy;ė. ||1|| 
then the slanderer washes my clothes. ||1|| 

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੈ ਸੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਮੀਤੁ ॥ 
निंदा करै सु हमरा मीतु ॥ 
Ninḏā karai so hamrā mīṯ. 
One who slanders me is my friend; 

ਨਿੰਦਕ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ 
निंदक माहि हमारा चीतु ॥ 
Ninḏak māhi hamārā cẖīṯ. 
the slanderer is in my thoughts. 

ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਸੋ ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਰੈ ॥ 
निंदकु सो जो निंदा होरै ॥ 
Ninḏak so jo ninḏā horai. 
The slanderer is the one who prevents me from being slandered. 

ਹਮਰਾ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਲੋਰੈ ॥੨॥ 
हमरा जीवनु निंदकु लोरै ॥२॥ 
Hamrā jīvan ninḏak lorai. ||2|| 
The slanderer wishes me long life. ||2|| 

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹਮਰੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ 
निंदा हमरी प्रेम पिआरु ॥ 
Ninḏā hamrī parėm pi&shy;ār. 
I have love and affection for the slanderer. 

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹਮਰਾ ਕਰੈ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
निंदा हमरा करै उधारु ॥ 
Ninḏā hamrā karai uḏẖār. 
Slander is my salvation. 

ਜਨ ਕਬੀਰ ਕਉ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ 
जन कबीर कउ निंदा सारु ॥ 
Jan Kabīr ka&shy;o ninḏā sār. 
Slander is the best thing for servant Kabeer. 

ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਡੂਬਾ ਹਮ ਉਤਰੇ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੩॥੨੦॥੭੧॥ 
निंदकु डूबा हम उतरे पारि ॥३॥२०॥७१॥ 
Ninḏak dūbā ham uṯrė pār. ||3||20||71|| 
The slanderer is drowned, while I am carried across. ||3||20||71||


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Three Basic Interpretations

Without going too deep into the different levels of meanings of each tradition, a subject far beyond the scope of an article or even a single book, we can say that every scripture and revealed writing has at least three different levels of reading: 1) a literal reading, 2) a symbolical reading, and 3) a metaphorical reading, corresponding respectively to a life centered around 1) mind and ego, 2) subconscious mind and, or 3) illumined intellect and soul.
Whatever the level of understanding of the reader, he will gain some knowledge which he can immediately utilize in his life. In addition, the regular study of this material will develop his intellect and grant him access to deeper and deeper levels of meanings.

(Source : Unknown)


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## Sikh80 (Mar 8, 2008)

I came across these lines.
Will someone be kind enough to explain the meaning.?
 
nw ko piVAw pMifqu bInw nw ko mUrKu mMdw ] (359-17, Awsw, mÚ 1)
  By himself, no one is literate, learned or wise; no one is ignorant or evil.

soeI Ajwxu khY mY jwnw jwnxhwru n Cwnw ry ] (382-1, Awsw, mÚ 5)
  One who claims to know, is ignorant; he does not know the Knower of all.​


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## Sikh80 (Mar 8, 2008)

Guru sahib tells us that he has seen The Lord. There is no metaphor in this line. May be someone be kind to explain the meaning.




khu nwnk hir isau mnu mwinAw so pRBu nYxI fITw ]1] (452-13, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Says Nanak, my mind is in harmony with the Lord; I have seen God with my eyes. ||1||​


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Evad ucha hovey koye,
tis uche ko jaane soye.


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

AmbarDhara said:


> We been told by Guru Ji several times that there is no difference between Guru and God, Guru God and Disciple and all. Guru Ji never ever said that -THERE IS ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL!
> Following is one out of the many beautiful verses where we are told:
> 
> 
> ...


AmbarDhara ji

 Here is meaning in essence of Shabad you have quoted.
ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 77}

“Oh my dear friend as fourth part of life-night comes, a call from Him to depart is served, my friend Guru is above error and seek refuge in him and follow his teachings (what is the teaching?(To be lost in the thoughts of Almighty) Don’t be lazy,( means don’t get lost  in other affairs and fail to get time to do simran). Satguru is beyond error (means whatever Satguru says about His Simran is true, don’t doubt it.) Only through simran you will have eternal spiritual experience and be able to experience Waheguru and also it will get you from cycle of coming and going. Do not see any difference between Satguru and Waheguru because taking refuge in Guru’s company you shall be able to fall in love with the creator.
Question: what is the dominating idea in this Shabad?
Answer is Waheguru. What is preached here? Seek refuge in Satguru to do simran.
Why? Guru’s company enables us to fall in love with Waheguru.
Why there is no difference in Satguru and Waheguru( Because Guru has realized Him)
“JIN JATA SO TIS HEE JIHA” Ramkli dakhni Onkar GGS Ji
( means who realizes Him becomes like Him)  

Your problem as I see is that you are stuck with “ Satguru sayeen jiha” You guys are more interested in proving that Guru is God, contrary to my position, I stand by Satguru’s bachan that states that in fact Waheguru  is beyond birth and death. In that context Satguru declares obviously .In Bharon Mehla 5

ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1136}
 This strong declaration is against those who says Waheguru  incarnates by cursing them to think that way.
 “ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥ Here
 Stress is to follow Satguru since as said by Satguru Nanak” ones who totally are lost in His thoughts are become like Him” Onkar GGS JI. Still the principle of Satguru of God’s being beyond incarnation stands intact. Satguru taught us to be logical to be aware of superstitious and fairy tales but this Brahmin mentality is dragging some Sikhs back to the point from where Satguru liberated them.
Another point about immorality of Satguru,( as aad0002 pointed out) there is no doubt he is. Even after over 500 years still Guru is guiding us and will continue for ever. As Satguru inspired, I have fallen for Waheguru. I am unable to pay gratitude what Satguru has done for me, how much I adore and revere Satguru, is beyond words. Do not judge me with your narrow thinking. I have no affiliations to anyone but Guru. Rest is left on ones determination to follow Satguru and respect for what He stood for. His coming was expressed by Bhai Gurdas as “risen sun that dispels mist” but your approach is undoing what Satguru was sent to do and did . Third Nanak very strongly urges us

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮੰਨਿਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇਰਾ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਕਥਿਹੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 918}
 So I am going to follow him, the major dominating principle of Sikhism, to be in love with Him by praising WAHEGURU through Gurbani
Rest I leave to WAHEGURU. When I am full with limitations what right have to judge others. Peace!!


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

*Originally Quoted by pk70*
Question: what is the dominating idea in this Shabad?
Answer is Waheguru. What is preached here? Seek refuge in Satguru to do simran.
Why? *Guru’s company enables us to fall in love with Waheguru.*
Why there is no difference in Satguru and Waheguru( Because Guru has realized Him)
“JIN JATA SO TIS HEE JIHA” Ramkli dakhni Onkar GGS Ji
( means *who realizes Him becomes like Him*) 

*This puts things in clear perspective.*

*.................................................................................................*

*ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮੰਨਿਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇਰਾ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਕਥਿਹੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 918}*

*This is from Sri Granth :*

*ਹੁਕਮੁ **ਮੰਨਿਹੁ **ਗੁਰੂ **ਕੇਰਾ **ਗਾਵਹੁ **ਸਚੀ **ਬਾਣੀ **॥ 
हुकमु मंनिहु गुरू केरा गावहु सची बाणी ॥ 
Hukam mannihu gurū kėrā gāvhu sacẖī baṇī. 
Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani. 

**ਕਹੈ **ਨਾਨਕੁ **ਸੁਣਹੁ **ਸੰਤਹੁ **ਕਥਿਹੁ **ਅਕਥ **ਕਹਾਣੀ **॥੯॥ 
कहै नानकु सुणहु संतहु कथिहु अकथ कहाणी ॥९॥ 
Kahai Nānak suṇhu sanṯahu kathihu akath kahāṇī. ||9|| 
Says Nanak, listen, O Saints, and speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||9||*


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

ਆਵਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਪਿਆਰਿਹੋ ਅਕਥ ਕੀ ਕਰਹ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥ 
आवहु संत पिआरिहो अकथ की करह कहाणी ॥ 
Āvhu sanṯ pi&shy;āriho akath kī karah kahāṇī. 
Come, Beloved Saints, let us speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. 

ਕਰਹ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਅਕਥ ਕੇਰੀ ਕਿਤੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
करह कहाणी अकथ केरी कितु दुआरै पाईऐ ॥ 
Karah kahāṇī akath kėrī kiṯ ḏu&shy;ārai pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
How can we speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord? Through which door will we find Him? 

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਉਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
तनु मनु धनु सभु सउपि गुर कउ हुकमि मंनिऐ पाईऐ ॥ 
Ŧan man ḏẖan sabẖ sa&shy;up gur ka&shy;o hukam mani&shy;ai pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him. 

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮੰਨਿਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇਰਾ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
हुकमु मंनिहु गुरू केरा गावहु सची बाणी ॥ 
Hukam mannihu gurū kėrā gāvhu sacẖī baṇī. 
Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani. 

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਕਥਿਹੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥੯॥ 
कहै नानकु सुणहु संतहु कथिहु अकथ कहाणी ॥९॥ 
Kahai Nānak suṇhu sanṯahu kathihu akath kahāṇī. ||9|| 
Says Nanak, listen, O Saints, and speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||9||


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## Sikh80 (Mar 8, 2008)

ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 77}​ 
************************************************************************

pdArQ:- AwdI—ilAWdw hY, lY AwauNdw hY (AWdI) [ kir pUrw—pUrw jwx ky, ABu`l jwx ky [ syvhu—srnI pvo [ rYix—rwq, aumr [ clI ivhwdI—lµGdI jw rhI hY [
**************************************************************************

iKnu iKnu—hryk iKn (ivc), suAws suAws [ syvhu—ismro[ mUil—iblkul hI [ ijqu—ijs (au~dm) dI rwhIN [ AsiQru—At`l, At`l Awqmk jIvn vwly [ rlIAw—Awqmk Awnµd [ jnm mrx duK—jnm mrn dy gyV ivc pwx vwly du`K [ Bydu—&rk [ ijqu—ijs (gurU) ivc [ imil—iml ky, juV ky [ suKWdI—ipAwrI l`gdI hY [ sPilau—{not:- ‘a’ dy nwl do mwqrw  hn   u Aqy  o [ Asl l&z hY ‘sPilE’, ieQy ‘siPlau’ pVHnw hY [4[
****************************************************************************

ArQ:- hir-nwm dw vxj krn Awey hy jIv-imqR! (izMdgI dI rwq dy) cOQy phr prmwqmw (jIv dy ie`QoN) qurn dw smw lY (hI) AwauNdw hY [ hy vxjwry jIv-imqR! gurU nUµ ABu`l jwx ky gurU dI srn pvo, (izMdgI dI) swrI rwq bIqdI jw rhI hY [ (hy jIv-imqR!) suAws suAws prmwqmw dw nwm ismro, (ies kMm ivc) iblkul Awls nwh kro, ismrn dI brkiq nwl hI sdw vwsqy At`l Awqmk jIvn vwly bx skogy [ (hy jIv-imqR! ismrn dI brkiq nwl hI) prmwqmw dy imlwp dw Awnµd sdw mwxogy qy jnm mrn dy gyV iv`c pwx vwly duKwN ƒ mukw skygw [

(hy jIv-imqR!) gurU qy prmwqmw ivc (rqw BI) &rk nwh smJo gurU (dy crnwN) iv`c juV ky hI prmwqmw dI BgqI ipAwrI l`gdI hY [

*********************************************************
Pk 70 and namjap ji,

We are all learning and it shall continue till the final call. We are all acting as per HIS hukum. 
I have posted above the translation of Dr.Sahib Singh ji that  shows that there is perfect alignment with  that you have stated.
The above shall be helpful to  those knowing Gurmukhi. However, that pk70 ji has stated is the essence of this shabad as per Sahib singh ji's version as well. 

Bhul chuk Mauf
[/FONT]


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Sikh80 posed a question in this thread :
www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/19498-*akath*-*katha*-explained-in-gurbani.html

Question :
*The katha that cannot be told/said/stated/understood is called as Akath Katha. What is this Katha.?Why has it been stated as above in Granth Sahib ji.? *
*Anyone in the know of the things may kindly like to share.*

pk70 Ji and All,

Your feedback will be much appreciated.


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

namjap said:


> Sikh80 posed a question in this thread :
> www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/19498-*akath*-*katha*-explained-in-gurbani.html
> 
> Question :
> ...


 
 namjap ji

Sikhism is very beautiful, I am not praising only because I strongly believe in but because it has an eye opening approach. Akath, is refered to The Inexpressible. Katha, literally means, story. in simple words, it is possible to express The inexpressible; however only by meeting trueGuru. True Guru had that experience, with his help The Inexpressible can be understood. In mool mantra Satguru just makes an effort to express His some fundamental qualities but later on says that it is not enough whatever he said or being said about Him in the past. People say repentable things, they get proved wrong.  That thought leads one to Guru to have His experience who is beyond words. Tragedy is that people understand anything only with the help of words or numbers. Gurbani says that still experience of Inexperssible is very much possible but one need to prepare for that, by merely saying things are doing rituals will not take you to that state of " Akath Kathna( to express the inexpressible). Hope it will help you.
Rgds


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 77}​
> 
> ************************************************************************
> 
> ...


 
Sikh 80
 You are doing wonderful job for the SPN fellows by searching and posting relevant material. We are all here to learn, no one is perfect, in my view, only Satguru is perfect who does a perfect job to mend us and lead  us to The Ultimate Truth, our CREATOR.


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

*ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ (1333)*
प्रभाती महला ३ ॥
parbhaatee mehlaa 3.
Prabhaatee, Third Mehl:
*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹਿਆ ਜਿੰਨਾ ਤਿਨ ਸਲਾਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਤਾ ॥ (1333)*
गुरमुखि हरि सालाहिआ जिंना तिन सलाहि हरि जाता ॥
gurmukh har salaahi-aa jinna tin salaahi har jaataa.
The Gurmukhs praise the Lord; praising the Lord, they know Him.
*ਵਿਚਹੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥੧॥ (1333)*
विचहु भरमु गइआ है दूजा गुर कै सबदि पछाता ॥१॥
vichahu bharam ga-i-aa hai doojaa gur kai sabad pachhaataa. ||1||
Doubt and duality are gone from within; they realize the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||
*ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਇਕੁ ਸੋਈ ॥ (1333)*
हरि जीउ तू मेरा इकु सोई ॥
har jee-o too mayraa ik so-ee.
O Dear Lord, You are my One and Only.
*ਤੁਧੁ ਜਪੀ ਤੁਧੈ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (1333)*
तुधु जपी तुधै सालाही गति मति तुझ ते होई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
tuDh japee tuDhai saalaahee gat mat tujh tay ho-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
I meditate on You and praise You; salvation and wisdom come from You. ||1||Pause||
*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਸੇ ਸਾਦੁ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਮੀਠਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ (1333)*
गुरमुखि सालाहनि से सादु पाइनि मीठा अम्रितु सारु ॥
gurmukh saalaahan say saad paa-in meethaa amrit saar.
The Gurmukhs praise You; they receive the most excellent and sweet Ambrosial Nectar.
*ਸਦਾ ਮੀਠਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਫੀਕਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ (1333)*
सदा मीठा कदे न फीका गुर सबदी वीचारु ॥२॥
sadaa meethaa kaday na feekaa gur sabdee veechaar. ||2||
This Nectar is forever sweet; it never loses its taste. Contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||2||
*ਜਿਨਿ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਇਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ (1333)*
जिनि मीठा लाइआ सोई जाणै तिसु विटहु बलि जाई ॥
jin meethaa laa-i-aa so-ee jaanai tis vitahu bal jaa-ee.
He makes it seem so sweet to me; I am a sacrifice to Him.
*ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹੀ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈ ॥੩॥ (1333)*
सबदि सलाही सदा सुखदाता विचहु आपु गवाई ॥३॥
sabad salaahee sadaa sukh-daata vichahu aap gavaa-ee. ||3||
Through the Shabad, I praise the Giver of peace forever. I have eradicated self-conceit from within. ||3||
*ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਇਛੈ ਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ (1333)*
सतिगुरु मेरा सदा है दाता जो इछै सो फलु पाए ॥
satgur mayraa sadaa hai daataa jo ichhai so fal paa-ay.
My True Guru is forever the Giver. I receive whatever fruits and rewards I desire.
*ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੪॥੩॥ (1333)*
नानक नामु मिलै वडिआई गुर सबदी सचु पाए ॥४॥३॥
naanak naam milai vadi-aa-ee gur sabdee sach paa-ay. ||4||3||
O Nanak, through the Naam, glorious greatness is obtained; through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the True One is found. ||4||3||


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

namjap ji
I love it. In Gurmat we are advised by the Guru to ask for love for him, nothing else because all other things  are being given by HIM any way; the one we dont have is A STRONG LONGING for HIM


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 8, 2008)

pk70 said:


> namjap ji
> I love it. In Gurmat we are advised by the Guru to ask for love for him, nothing else because all other things are being given by HIM any way; the one we dont have is A STRONG LONGING for HIM


well said! hehe, even if we ask Him/Her, He/She won't give anything to us, if He/She doesn't want to, since we have no control over the almighty. So no point in asking. Just say "Sarbat the Bhala."


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 8, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Guru sahib tells us that he has seen The Lord. There is no metaphor in this line. May be someone be kind to explain the meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sikh this is again a metaphor, Guru Nanak says God is formless and is unseen, so how did guru see Him/Her? 
well, Guru Nanak says Lord can be seen only when, you have no anger, lust, etc (those 5 thieves), when you consider human race to be equal, etc. Seeing the Lord is not the point here (because that's impossible), the point is how you can see the Lord, once you start doing that(getting rid of 5 thieves etc etc) you become an amazing person. So amazing that YOU HAVE SEEN THE LORD, because back then (and even now) people thought anyone who saw the Lord must have been a good person.
But seeing the Lord is a metaphor for saying I have gotten rid of my anger, lust, greed etc. I know that the Lord is in everything around us, so I treat everyone equally, and so on.
So, says Nanak my mind is in harmony with the Lord. I have gotten rid of my 5 thieves, believe in equality and selfless service, and so on. Doesn't sound as good as seeing Waheguru? That's why Guru Nanak said I saw Waheguru, and showed us how we can "see" Him/Her.

Maybe, you should post the whole passage.


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Bhagat Singh Ji,

You put it beautifully. Thanks.


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## Sikh80 (Mar 8, 2008)

Dear Bhagat Ji,
As desired I am posting the relevant verse/tuks.


*****************************************************

ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਣਾਈਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਵਿਟੜਿਅਹੁ ਹਉ ਘੋਲੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਈਆ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਆਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦਿਅੜਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਠੜਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 452}
********************************************************************

pdArQ:- ivtiVAhu—qoN [ hau—mYN [ GolI—sdky [ ijin—ijs (gurU) ny [ siB—swrIAW [ min icMidAVw—mn ivc icqivAw hoieAw [ quTVw—pRsMn [ nwim—nwm ivc [ nwnku—(AwKdw hY) [5[

ArQ:- hy myry ipAwry! mYƒ gurU ny prmwqmw dIAW is&iq-swlwh dIAW g`lW suxweIAW hn, mYN aus gurU qoN sdky jWdI hW ijs ny mYƒ pRBU-pqI dy crnW ivc joV id`qw hY [ hy myry ipAwry! pRBU ny myrIAW swrIAW AwsW pUrIAW kr id`qIAW hn, pRBU pwsy mYN mn-icqivAw Pl pw ilAw hY [
nwnk (AwKdw hY—) hy myry ipAwry! ijs (vf-BwgI mnu`K auqy) prmwqmw dieAwvwn huMdw hY auh prmwqmw dy nwm ivc lIn ho jWdw hY [5[

****************************************************
The meanings are given in Gurmukhi.
Yes, You should be 100% correct that it is a metaphor and I stand corrected.
Thanks for pointing out.
You may like to elaborate further if you happen to know Gurmukhi.


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Sikh80 Ji and All,

ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਣਾਈਆ ॥ 
हरि कीआ कथा कहाणीआ मेरे पिआरे सतिगुरू सुणाईआ ॥ 
Har kī&shy;ā kathā kahāṇī&shy;ā mėrė pi&shy;ārė saṯgurū suṇā&shy;ī&shy;ā. 
The True Guru has preached the sermon of the Lord, O my dear beloved. 

ਗੁਰ ਵਿਟੜਿਅਹੁ ਹਉ ਘੋਲੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਈਆ ॥ 
गुर विटड़िअहु हउ घोली मेरे पिआरे जिनि हरि मेलाईआ ॥ 
Gur vitṛi&shy;ahu ha&shy;o gẖolī mėrė pi&shy;ārė jin har mėlā&shy;ī&shy;ā. 
I am a sacrifice to the Guru, O my dear beloved, who has united me with the Lord. 

ਸਭਿ ਆਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦਿਅੜਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
सभि आसा हरि पूरीआ मेरे पिआरे मनि चिंदिअड़ा फलु पाइआ ॥ 
Sabẖ āsā har pūrī&shy;ā mėrė pi&shy;ārė man cẖinḏi&shy;aṛā fal pā&shy;i&shy;ā. 
The Lord has fulfilled all my hopes, O my dear beloved; I have obtained the fruits of my heart's desires. 

ਹਰਿ ਤੁਠੜਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ 
हरि तुठड़ा मेरे पिआरे जनु नानकु नामि समाइआ ॥५॥ 
Har ṯuṯẖ&shy;ṛā mėrė pi&shy;ārė jan Nānak nām samā&shy;i&shy;ā. ||5|| 
When the Lord is pleased, O my dear beloved, servant Nanak is absorbed into the Naam. ||5||


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Listen to Yogi Bhajan and give me your views of his remarkable speech.
Awakening to Leadership - Are You Ready? at MrSikhNet


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Mar 8, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Sikh this is again a metaphor, Guru Nanak says God is formless and is unseen, so how did guru see Him/Her?
> well, Guru Nanak says Lord can be seen only when, you have no anger, lust, etc (those 5 thieves), when you consider human race to be equal, etc. Seeing the Lord is not the point here (because that's impossible), the point is how you can see the Lord, once you start doing that(getting rid of 5 thieves etc etc) you become an amazing person. So amazing that YOU HAVE SEEN THE LORD, because back then (and even now) people thought anyone who saw the Lord must have been a good person.
> But seeing the Lord is a metaphor for saying I have gotten rid of my anger, lust, greed etc. I know that the Lord is in everything around us, so I treat everyone equally, and so on.
> So, says Nanak my mind is in harmony with the Lord. I have gotten rid of my 5 thieves, believe in equality and selfless service, and so on. Doesn't sound as good as seeing Waheguru? That's why Guru Nanak said I saw Waheguru, and showed us how we can "see" Him/Her.
> ...


 
Good attempt to explain but some things are better known by personally experiencing them. 
"Evad oocha hove koi, tis ooche ko jane soe"
Then only shall you realise the truth. We generally try to relate things to our physical/practical experience, the seeing referred here is a spiritual experience and cannot be put into words.


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

*Ego's tricks... *


"One of the great dangers of transformational work is that the ego attempts to sidestep deep psychological work by leaping into the transcendent too soon. This is because the ego always fancies itself much more ‘advanced’ than it actually is."
-- Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson

The Tibetan teacher, Chogyam Trungpa, warned of the trap of spiritual materialism. He says we must be ever diligent to spot the ego’s use of the spiritual journey to further its own ends.
We may think it’s spiritual to yearn for divine connection. And yet, if the longing is to fill an emptiness inside, just how does this differ from the one who yearns for money or possessions to fill the inner void? Do we look to our spiritual practices as proof of our evolved consciousness or as protection against fears?
Any time we use spiritual disciplines to maintain our identity and security, we are not yet on the path of genuine spiritual development.


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Here are a few verses which touch on ego (Haume) from Sri Granth :

Page 13, Line 10
ਸਾਕਤ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਸਾਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
साकत हरि रस सादु न जाणिआ तिन अंतरि हउमै कंडा हे ॥
Sākaṯ har ras sāḏ na jāṇi&shy;ā ṯin anṯar ha&shy;umai kandā hė.
The wicked shaaktas, the faithless cynics, do not know the Taste of the Lord's Sublime Essence. The thorn of egotism is embedded deep within them.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 19, Line 9
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਸਭ ਮੁਠੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
हउमै ममता मोहणी सभ मुठी अहंकारि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ha&shy;umai mamṯā mohṇī sabẖ muṯẖī ahaŉkār. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
Egotism and possessiveness are very enticing; egotistical pride has plundered everyone. ||1||Pause||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 21, Line 3
ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥
अनहद बाणी पाईऐ तह हउमै होइ बिनासु ॥
Anhaḏ baṇī pā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯah ha&shy;umai ho&shy;ė binās.
The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 26, Line 7
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਚੂਕਾ ਮਨਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
अंतरि हरि रसु रवि रहिआ चूका मनि अभिमानु ॥
Anṯar har ras rav rahi&shy;ā cẖūkā man abẖimān.
Deep within, they are drenched with the Essence of the Lord, and the egotistical pride of the mind is subdued.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

Ek Musafir - Ajnabi jio
Bhagat Singh has said exactly what you are saying. He is not talking about knowing but how to know and how Gurbani leads us to that path. To express the inexpressible is not a point here. I think in a few words Bhagat Singh has defined the mission of Sikhism: Gurbani leads us to a way that can enable us to experience Him if Guru is followed strictly.
Note. I am not disagreeing on your point but stressing that what Bhagat Singh said is beautiful.


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

namjap said:


> *Ego's tricks... *
> 
> 
> "One of the great dangers of transformational work is that the ego attempts to sidestep deep psychological work by leaping into the transcendent too soon. This is because the ego always fancies itself much more ‘advanced’ than it actually is."
> ...


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

namjap said:


> Sikh80 posed a question in this thread :
> www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/19498-*akath*-*katha*-explained-in-gurbani.html
> 
> Question :
> ...


 
Ekmusafir Ji,

Can you kindly expand on this. Because,

Mere Har Pritam Ki Koyi Baat Sunaweh
So Bhai So Mera Veer.

Bhagat Ji, pk70 Ji, ekmusafir Ji, Sikh80 Ji and namjap Ji have similarities - we all want to know our Lord God - my Veer Ji s. There is perfect harmony here without unnecessary bashing unlike other threads.


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## Astroboy (Mar 8, 2008)

pk70 Ji,

Vinh Tudh Hor Je Mangna,
Sirr DukhaN ke Dukh,
Deh Naam Santokhia,
Utreh Mann Ki Bhukh.

The Tibetan teacher, Chogyam Trungpa, warned of the trap of spiritual materialism. He says we must be ever diligent to spot the ego’s use of the spiritual journey to further its own ends.
We may think it’s spiritual to yearn for divine connection. And yet, if the longing is to fill an emptiness inside, *just how does this differ from the one who yearns for money or possessions to fill the inner void?* Do we look to our spiritual practices as proof of our evolved consciousness or as protection against fears?
Any time we use spiritual disciplines to maintain our identity and security, we are not yet on the path of genuine spiritual development

I have thought many times about this inner void thing. It is a thirst that seems to go on unendingly. The thirst to be fulfilled. But this fulfillment is really the trick of the ego played on us. The mind has always outsmarted us to make us feel that this fulfillment is our ultimate satisfaction. But since it is an illusion, meaning non-existent, it triggers the emotions to seek satisfaction elsewhere - outwardly.

If we follow our Guru's teaching - 
*ਤਨੁ **ਮਨੁ **ਧਨੁ **ਸਭੁ **ਸਉਪਿ **ਗੁਰ **ਕਉ **ਹੁਕਮਿ **ਮੰਨਿਐ **ਪਾਈਐ **॥* 
Ŧan man ḏẖan sabẖ sa&shy;up gur ka&shy;o hukam mani&shy;ai pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him. 

But we are not willing to let go. In Sikhism we don't need to follow a dehdhari person guru - so that takes away alot of doubts and potholes. We don't have to worry about giving our wealth away to a dehdhari guru and serve him like a slave. 

But we need to give our head to the True Guru within us. For it is the door within, which will take us to the Own Country. 

This reminds me of a parable - about a mother who complained to a therapist about her son. She said, "Disciplining this boy is just so difficult. Everytime I turn my back and look back again, he's gone." The therapist said, "Your son has a problem in taking instructions. This is what I want you to do. Tie a rope around your waist and hand the other end to your son. Come back the next time with the feedback."
The mother was surprised with the results. She told the therapist that he's stopped dissappearing when she turned her sight away from him. In fact he obediently stays there holding the other end of the rope because now she was his prisoner.

What's the moral of this story/parable ?

That we are holding on to the 5 passions of the mind so tightly and obediently that Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ego (Ahankar) keeps our attention towards them. The mind plays the trick on us that the 5 passions are out prisoners but truly it is the other way around. All we need to do is let go of the rope end which we are holding onto and that sets us free to soar to the heights of our Own Country where the sweet sound of flute is heard.

Ever wondered why Krishna is depicted holding a flute ?
A reminder of the "preetam ka desh" and its beautiful and indescribable nature, probably.


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

namjap ji 
Thanks, I just couldnt recall it. This happens to me  quite often ! Thanks really!


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## Astroboy (Mar 10, 2008)

*ਧਨ ਵਾਂਢੀ ਪਿਰੁ ਦੇਸ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਠਾੲ​*ਂ​*ੀ ॥ *
*dhhan vaandtee pir dhaes nivaasee sachae gur pehi sabadh pathaaeanaee ||*
*The soul-bride is separated from her Husband Lord, who lives in His Own Country. He sends the Shabad, His Word, through the True Guru.*


*ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੀ ਹਰਖਾਈ ॥੫॥ *
*gun sangrehi prabh ridhai nivaasee bhagath rathee harakhaaee ||5||*
*She gathers virtues, and enshrines God within her heart. Imbued with devotion, s**he is happy.*


*ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਕਰੈ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ਜੇਤੀ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਾੲ​*ਂ​*ੀ ॥ *
*prio prio karai sabhai hai jaethee gur bhaavai prio paaeanaee ||*
*Everyone cries out, ""Beloved! Beloved!"" But she alone finds her Beloved, who is pleasing to the Guru.* ||5||


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 10, 2008)

namjap said:


> Listen to Yogi Bhajan and give me your views of his remarkable speech.
> Awakening to Leadership - Are You Ready? at MrSikhNet


I listened to it, it was amzing, I haven't gotten the chance to listen to the full version though. 
One thing I found strange was that when the guy couldnt get SGSS, he got a big black rock and made it Guru Gobind SIngh's spirit. Hmm, sounds like idol worship to me.:}: Just done in another way.
Anyway, everything was awesome! Made me feel like I was part of something bigger.


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## Astroboy (Mar 11, 2008)

Bhagat Ji,

Even I could not grasp what Yogi Bhajan said about the big black rock.He did not explain it properly though.
But see the beauty of his genuine enquiry and effort his group put in, breaking away from the entrapments of pre-conceived Sikhism in Punjab. Remarkable.


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

Pyramid said:


> Mr. Namjap Ji,
> 
> What is Guru?  If it is not God then who is?



God.


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## spnadmin (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji answers my queries.*



bhaigurdeepsingh said:


> Please send your opinion in this poll.[/FONT]
> 
> Q) Do you get the answers for your questions from SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI?[/FONT]
> Ans)[/FONT]
> ...



Veer ji

First, like a helpful forum mod, I was going to offer to help you set up a poll on the thread. Then I realized what you were really asking. !!!! Later I will listen to the black rock video. Saw it but did not listen/watch.  Nice to meet you. 

Black Rock Video sounds like a good title for something though.


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