# Does Akaal Forgive?



## Ishna (Mar 10, 2016)

Sat Sri Akaal Sangat Jio

So in another thread, a member is seeking forgiveness from Akaal Sahib (for what, we do not know).  In that same thread, another member suggested that Akaal Sahib / Ik Onkar does not forgive.

So I'm wondering about this shabad which starts on panna 157 (and the many others) that call Akaal Sahib the Forgiver:

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ॥
Rāg ga▫oṛī gu▫ārerī.
Raag Gauree Gwaarayree:

ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ਚਉਪਦੇ ॥
Mėhlā 3 cẖa▫upḏe.
Third Mehl, Chau-Padas:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਹੋਈ ॥
Gur mili▫ai har melā ho▫ī.
Meeting the Guru, we meet the Lord.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
Āpe mel milāvai so▫ī.
He Himself unites us in His Union.

ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
Merā parabẖ sabẖ biḏẖ āpe jāṇai.
My God knows all His Own Ways.

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੇਲੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥
Hukme mele sabaḏ pacẖẖāṇai. ||1||
By the Hukam of His Command, He unites those who recognize the Word of the Shabad. ||1||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਇ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਜਾਇ ॥
Saṯgur kai bẖa▫e bẖaram bẖa▫o jā▫e.
By the Fear of the True Guru, doubt and fear are dispelled.

ਭੈ ਰਾਚੈ ਸਚ ਰੰਗਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bẖai rācẖai sacẖ rang samā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Imbued with His Fear, we are absorbed in the Love of the True One. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
Gur mili▫ai har man vasai subẖā▫e.
Meeting the Guru, the Lord naturally dwells within the mind.

ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਭਾਰਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
Merā parabẖ bẖārā kīmaṯ nahī pā▫e.
My God is Great and Almighty; His value cannot be estimated.

ਸਬਦਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥
Sabaḏ salāhai anṯ na pārāvār.
Through the Shabad, I praise Him; He has no end or limitations.

*ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਬਖਸੇ ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Merā parabẖ bakẖse bakẖsaṇhār. ||2||
My God is the Forgiver. I pray that He may forgive me. ||2||*

ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸਭ ਮਤਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
Gur mili▫ai sabẖ maṯ buḏẖ ho▫e.
Meeting the Guru, all wisdom and understanding are obtained.

ਮਨਿ ਨਿਰਮਲਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
Man nirmal vasai sacẖ so▫e.
The mind becomes pure, when the True Lord dwells within.

ਸਾਚਿ ਵਸਿਐ ਸਾਚੀ ਸਭ ਕਾਰ ॥
Sācẖ vasi▫ai sācẖī sabẖ kār.
When one dwells in Truth, all actions become true.

ਊਤਮ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਬਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੩॥
Ūṯam karṇī sabaḏ bīcẖār. ||3||
The ultimate action is to contemplate the Word of the Shabad. ||3||

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸਾਚੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
Gur ṯe sācẖī sevā ho▫e.
Through the Guru, true service is performed.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
Gurmukẖ nām pacẖẖāṇai ko▫e.
How rare is that Gurmukh who recognizes the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਜੀਵੈ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
Jīvai ḏāṯā ḏevaṇhār.
The Giver, the Great Giver, lives forever.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥੧॥੨੧॥
Nānak har nāme lagai pi▫ār. ||4||1||21||
Nanak enshrines love for the Name of the Lord. ||4||1||21||​Thanks


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## Sherdil (Mar 11, 2016)

Bakhse = To bless
Bakhsanhar = The blesser

The ultimate blessing is for the Divine unite Himself with us, thus dissipating the illusion of duality. The translator has chosen to use the word "forgive". This still works because it implies forgiveness for our sins. All karma arises from dualistic thinking. Through Divine union, all karma associated with dualistic thinking is negated, i.e. all sins are forgiven.

The dichotomy between us and Him in this shabadh reflects the mindset of bhakti (devotional worship). All glory is given to the Divine. Through self-negation, only the One remains.

According to the Hukam, blessings and forgiveness come to pass. All power resides with the One.


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 11, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, where did you get that phrase, "Akaal Sahib"?  Did you read it somewhere or did you coin it yourself?


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## Ishna (Mar 11, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Just out of curiosity, where did you get that phrase, "Akaal Sahib"?  Did you read it somewhere or did you coin it yourself?



I think I read it somewhere and liked it.  Akaal Sahib.  Timeless Master.


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 12, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> I think I read it somewhere and liked it.  Akaal Sahib.  Timeless Master.



Would be very interested in the reference, if you are able to find it again or recall.

Thanks
[AoG]


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## Ishna (Mar 13, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Would be very interested in the reference, if you are able to find it again or recall.
> 
> Thanks
> [AoG]



I think I dwelt on the word "Sahib" in a shabad.  I connect strongly to the Akaal description of the Ik Onkar, so I think I put the two together.  If I do come across it somewhere else, I'll let you know.


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 13, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> I connect strongly to the Akaal description of the Ik Onkar, so I think I put the two together.  If I do come across it somewhere else, I'll let you know.



Just be careful lest you end up like this guy:

http://www.spiritvoyage.com/mantra/Sat-Siri-Siri-Akal/MAN-000014.aspx

Doesn't take much to construct meaningless nonsense:

Sat siree siree akaal, siree akaal mahaa akaal, Mahaa akaal, sat naam, akaal moorat, wahay guroo

Complete gibberish.

[AoG]


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## Ishna (Mar 14, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Just be careful lest you end up like this guy:
> 
> http://www.spiritvoyage.com/mantra/Sat-Siri-Siri-Akal/MAN-000014.aspx
> 
> ...



What does the "mahaa akaal" part mean?  Like, what is "mahaa"?

Apart from that, don't the words just make a pleasant chant?  Not that I'm an advocate of random chants, but how is it gibberish.

Sat Sri Akaal.  Sat Naam.  Akaal moorat.  Waheguru.  All familiar terms.


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 14, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> What does the "mahaa akaal" part mean?  Like, what is "mahaa"?
> 
> Apart from that, don't the words just make a pleasant chant?  Not that I'm an advocate of random chants, but how is it gibberish.
> 
> Sat Sri Akaal.  Sat Naam.  Akaal moorat.  Waheguru.  All familiar terms.



"Yogi Bhajan" IMO was not a spiritually elevated person.  He was a master manipulator and a charlatan.  He was also spiritually blind, ignorant, and egotistical.  He had very limited knowledge of gurmat and Sikh philosophy.  Perhaps he was delusional too.  Cult leaders tend to be like that.

Thinking himself to be at par (or greater than) the Sikh Gurus, he began his own brand of Sikhism, making kundalini yoga a central part of his teachings and a requirement for all his followers.  In addition to a whole host of other questionable practices, he started doing this nonsensical thing where he would string together a bunch of words from the Sikh lexicon to come up with his own unique "mantra" which he would then instruct his follows to chant.

I find that practice to be spurious at best, and more likely a sinister attempt at hijacking Sikhism.

So yes, there is harm in stringing together a bunch of words, all of which are individually familiar to you.  This is actually what the "Yogi" was counting on, that people would see the words and say, "Oh, I know those words", and take the bait.  

All these "mantra's" to chant for various things (for healing back pain, to eradicate depression, to generate happy thoughts, to recover from emotions of sadness, etc. etc.) are all anti-Gurmat practices and are veering away from the message that the Sikh Guru's taught and practiced.

As far as "Mahakal", check it out:

Mahakal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Use your discerning intellect.  See through the fraudsters so that you may stay on the path.

[AoG]


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 16, 2016)

Sherdil said:


> Bakhse = To bless
> Bakhsanhar = The blesser



Sherdil ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to disagree with you. The above two words mean *to Forgive *and *Forgiver* according to mahan kosh. Here it is:

*SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary*
ਮਾਫੀ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਆਪਿ ਛਡਾਏ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ਅਸ ੧੫, ੨:੩ (62)}। ਹਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ॥ {ਆਸਾ ੧, ੨੪, ੧:੨ (356)}। ਗੁਨਹਾਂ ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਵਹੀ॥ {ਆਸਾ ੧, ੧੬, ੮:੨ (420)}। ਗੁਨਹਾਂ ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਵਹੀ॥ {ਆਸਾ ੧, ਅਸ ੧੬, ੮:੨ (420)}। ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਹ

Sri Granth: Punjabi Dictionary & Encyclopedia

Ik Ong  Kaar, that is Nirbhau Nirvair as mentioned in Moolmantar can not be anything but a forgiver.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 17, 2016)

Good posts if I may also put in a word.

For me in Sikhism, the creator delegates to each Sikh all in the sense of to Act according to the understanding of , "What is and How is".

If there is understanding within oneself, the concepts of forgive/forgiver and bless/blesser fall to the way side.

The concepts of forgive/forgiver and bless/blesser come into play only when we lack understanding and are surprised, fearful, happy, in jubilation, etc., at goings on. Then we can conveniently for lack of understanding attribute situations as forgive/forgiver and bless/blesser vis-a-vis the creator. Nothing should surprise a Sikh, perhaps just awe at experiencing "What is and How is".

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:* We as human beings are by design perhaps lazy. We rather be led than lead ourselves. There is livelihood, fame and fortune to be had by those who take the people on who want to be led. Look around there are Sikh sects and many other religions even structured to operate that way. Big money and big business it is.

At the very base level living and surviving is not much of a challenge. It only becomes a challenge when our 6' x 4' bed becomes a 3000 square foot house and our sandals become wheels of a car. So our understanding needs to frame the extremes and realities in a manner peaceful and in content and you will find yourself forgiven and blessed .


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## Sherdil (Mar 17, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Sherdil ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



It depends on how the word is used within the context of the line in question.

Here is the same word ਬਖਸੇ with the connotation of blessing.

GGS, page 5:

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ *ਬਖਸੇ* ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
जिस नो बखसे सिफति सालाह ॥
Jis no *bakẖse* sifaṯ sālāh.
One who is *blessed* to sing the Praises

Whether it is translated as blessing or forgiveness it implies Divine Union. According to the Hukam, the Divine brings us close and unites us with Himself. According to the Hukam the Divine pushes us away. If we are so blessed to receive His glance of grace, then He will unite Himself with us. By doing so, all sins are forgiven and we are "liberated".

GGS, page 1:

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ *ਬਖਸੀਸ* ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
इकना हुकमी बखसीस इकि हुकमी सदा भवाईअहि ॥
Iknā hukmī *bakẖsīs* ik hukmī saḏā bẖavā▫ī▫ah.
Some, by His Command, are *blessed and forgiven*; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

Bakhsis in this context implies liberation, i.e Divine Union.

Removed from the context of the tukk, as a stand alone word, bakhse is best translated as "to bless".


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 17, 2016)

Sherdil ji thanks for your reply and quoting Gurbani in your replies. I know it takes time and effort versus off the cuff contributions even though I don't mean to minimize anyone's contributions.

It just occurred to me that sometimes we over complicate the simple or debate where none may be required. Let us understand the common usage of wording that we have been discussing.

Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL Punjabi University, Patiala

1
*ਬਖਸ਼ 
*





بخش
_noun, feminine_ gift, boon, blessing, bestowal, largess; _suffix_ indicating giver, bestower, as in ਸਿਹਤ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ , salubrious​
So the core word has multiple meanings and is used much in context.

I do have a question regarding your assertion about duality, merging. For example you say;

*The ultimate blessing is for the Divine unite Himself with us, thus dissipating the illusion of duality., etc. 
*​I don't think it is of any relevance. We are never separate and I don't think the other party thinks we are separate. It is simply our lack of understanding that makes us believe or think it that way and does not make it so.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Sherdil (Mar 17, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> I don't think it is of any relevance. We are never separate and I don't think the other party thinks we are separate. It is simply our lack of understanding that makes us believe or think it that way and does not make it so.



Yes ji, I agree wholeheartedly. This is why I have described it as the illusion of duality. This illusion is produced by the mind. It afflicts us all. Through Bhakti however, we make the Divine appear grand and ourselves miniscule and of little importance in comparison. What can the slave do beyond the Master's will? This is part of the technique, if you will, of breaking that shackles of Haumai. Become the dust at the lotus feet of the Divine. When you are nothing, then only the One will remain.

An ode to Tejwant Singh ji's Mahan Kosh referral:


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## Harry Haller (Mar 19, 2016)

Does Akal Sahib know what it feels like to forgive?

I doubt it, I would imagine that Akal Sahib is way way beyond such pointless and human emotions.


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## Sherdil (Mar 19, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Does Akal Sahib know what it feels like to forgive?
> 
> I doubt it, I would imagine that Akal Sahib is way way beyond such pointless and human emotions.



Who is there to forgive in the first place? All is One. There is no other.

No one has the power to defy the One. Nothing happens outside of the Hukam. Nothing happens that the Divine didn't will to happen, so what is there to forgive?

The technique of Bhakti differs from the reality of what Gurbani is saying.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 19, 2016)

"Forgiveness is in the mind of the forgiver, hence needs no "acceptance"".


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## swarn bains (Mar 19, 2016)

sorry to say, but i am ignorant  what is akaal sahib


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## Ishna (Mar 19, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> sorry to say, but i am ignorant  what is akaal sahib



Okay, point taken.  I will refrain from using this term in future.

How about I just say, "the Sat".  Does the Sat Forgive?

If this is not acceptable either, may the sangat kindly instruct me as to what the preferred term is for me to use to refer to That which is described by the Mool Mantar.

Thanks


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 19, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> Okay, point taken.  I will refrain from using this term in future.
> 
> How about I just say, "the Sat".  Does the Sat Forgive?
> 
> ...



Personally,  Akaal Sahib is a beautiful way to describe the indescribable.


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## ActsOfGod (Mar 19, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> Okay, point taken.  I will refrain from using this term in future.
> 
> How about I just say, "the Sat".  Does the Sat Forgive?
> 
> ...



The Sikh term is 'Akaal Purakh'


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## Ishna (Mar 20, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> The Sikh term is 'Akaal Purakh'



Akaal Moorat?


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## Ishna (Mar 20, 2016)

So I was chatting with some Sikh friends online today, and asked them about this.

They said that they wouldn't use "Sahib" to describe "Akaal", because "sahib" isn't quite a strong enough word to go with Akaal.  Purakh is, but not Sahib.  Even though in Gurbani, "Sahib" is used to refer to "God", that is specific to the Gurbani.  Most people reading "Akaal Sahib" would see the "Sahib" as more like a Punjabi word, and it doesn't really make sense.

So now that someone has taken the time to thoroughly explain it to me, I understand.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 20, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> So I was chatting with some Sikh friends online today, and asked them about this.
> 
> They said that they wouldn't use "Sahib" to describe "Akaal", because "sahib" isn't quite a strong enough word to go with Akaal.  Purakh is, but not Sahib.  Even though in Gurbani, "Sahib" is used to refer to "God", that is specific to the Gurbani.  Most people reading "Akaal Sahib" would see the "Sahib" as more like a Punjabi word, and it doesn't really make sense.
> 
> So now that someone has taken the time to thoroughly explain it to me, I understand.



Admin Kaur ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well,whoever told you the above is incorrect. We call our Gurus, Guru Sahibs, when they did not even call themselves Gurus. In Jap we recite daily, Page 2 :

ਸਾਚਾ *ਸਾਹਿਬੁ* ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥

Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.

True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.

One can find many references like the above in the SGGS.

So  describing the indescribable as Akaal Sahib is your personal quest and I think it is wonderful.

If someone has objections to it, please seek the help of SGGS, our only Guru and educate us through your Gurmat wisdom. After all we are all Sikhs, students,learners.

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Mar 20, 2016)

I would not worry about sis, I think the term Akaal Sahib suits more than 'god', as always it is those that would look not at the content, but at the dressing that have issues.


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## swarn bains (Mar 20, 2016)

word sussa ਸ has been changed to shasha same way gurudwara has been changed to gurdwara sahib, akaal purkh changed to akal sahib. it is done by sikhs who migrated to west and are not very good in punjabi. theyhave changed sabad to shabad. in sggs there is no word as shabad and many more places ਸ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ  shortage of language knowledge or to emphases their importance
most of western sikh do not even know punjabi but internet has brought them in front of others who may know punjabi well and know sggs well but they are not good on internet. most of them do ot know how to type they do not have cell phones as well . so sikh society is taking a new turn. better or worse time will tell. watch it


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## Harry Haller (Mar 20, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> word sussa ਸ has been changed to shasha same way gurudwara has been changed to gurdwara sahib, akaal purkh changed to akal sahib. it is done by sikhs who migrated to west and are not very good in punjabi. theyhave changed sabad to shabad. in sggs there is no word as shabad and many more places ਸ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ  shortage of language knowledge or to emphases their importance
> most of western sikh do not even know punjabi but internet has brought them in front of others who may know punjabi well and know sggs well but they are not good on internet. most of them do ot know how to type they do not have cell phones as well . so sikh society is taking a new turn. better or worse time will tell. watch it



I would not say Sikh society has excelled itself by keeping things inward, if anything, Sikh society is defined by the Punjab and Punjab society, so let us indeed see how a universal attitude affects our definition of Sikhs, better or worse, time will indeed tell, .


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## Astroboy (Mar 20, 2016)

Are we getting too technical here on meanings of words. IMHO Does Akaal Forgive? The question is too wide and not specific enough. 

On the other hand, I was attending Asa Di Waar with the Gurdwara Priest when he kept emphasising on one tuk,"Kiss Nu Kahiye Nanaka, Sabh kich Apey aap." This the is in the 24th Salok of the bani.
It has stuck with me ever since.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 20, 2016)

Astroboy said:


> Are we getting too technical here on meanings of words.



yes, I think we are, maybe its time we started instead of trusting social and political meanings


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 20, 2016)

Astroboy said:


> Are we getting too technical here on meanings of words. IMHO Does Akaal Forgive? The question is too wide and not specific enough.
> 
> On the other hand, I was attending Asa Di Waar with the Gurdwara Priest when he kept emphasising on one tuk,"Kiss Nu Kahiye Nanaka, Sabh kich Apey aap." This the is in the 24th Salok of the bani.
> It has stuck with me ever since.


 
Guru Fateh Namjap ji,

Nice to see you after a long time. Welcome back because we need your wisdom,your quest and your love to understand Gurbani here in the forum. And yes, the omnipresence of The Source is in all that there *is*.

This is off subject.

I wanted to start a private conversation among some members including yourself on the following subject but some how could not, hence I am doing it here.

A few years ago, you started a group regarding Bhagat Bani, in this case Bhagat Kabir and many of us participated in it. It was a great interaction. We all learned a lot from it.

Sadly, I could not find it on SPN. Would you be kind enough to find that out?

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 20, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> word sussa ਸ has been changed to shasha same way gurudwara has been changed to gurdwara sahib, akaal purkh changed to akal sahib. it is done by sikhs who migrated to west and are not very good in punjabi. theyhave changed sabad to shabad. in sggs there is no word as shabad and many more places ਸ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ  shortage of language knowledge or to emphases their importance
> most of western sikh do not even know punjabi but internet has brought them in front of others who may know punjabi well and know sggs well but they are not good on internet. most of them do ot know how to type they do not have cell phones as well . so sikh society is taking a new turn. better or worse time will tell. watch it



Swan Bains ji,

Guru Fateh

Would you be kind enough to show where "word sussa ਸ has been changed to shasha"? And also please elaborate what you mean  so we can learn from your wide experience and love for Gurbani

How can one change the name of the nameless? Gurbani is filled with words and yes, as admitted by our Gurus, no words are enough to describe Ik Ong Kaar.

It is difficult to translate Punjabi words into English because of some sounds that we, who are from the Indic languages' background enunciate differently.

The best example is *V* and* W. We(Ve)* invert them. This is the reason we say *Waheguru* rather than *Vaheguru *and the latter is correct because the letter in Gurmukhi is *ਵ*. However, we say *Ouvictory *rather than *V(ਵ) Victory. *Here we are pronouncing the word with *W*. Btw, the Germans do the same thing.

Lastly for the same reason, my name is written in English as Tej*w*ant Singh rather than Tej*v*ant Singh the way we pronounce and write in Gurmukhi with *V(ਵ)*.

Your input is very useful in this forum and I personally thank you for that.

Tejw(v)ant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 20, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> Okay, point taken.  I will refrain from using this term in future.
> 
> How about I just say, "the Sat".  Does the Sat Forgive?
> 
> ...


In my humble opinion this is very wrong approach. Mool Mantar by itself is not deserving of any descriptive name as though it is a description of the creator in SGGSJ.

Mool Mantar is simply an example of a very small subset of infinite attributes of the creator. I would never ask for such or propose any. It will be a great disservice to the message in SGGSJ, at least in my way of thinking.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Mar 21, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> In my humble opinion this is very wrong approach. Mool Mantar by itself is not deserving of any descriptive name as though it is a description of *the creator* in SGGSJ.
> 
> Mool Mantar is simply an example of a very small subset of infinite attributes of *the creator*. I would never ask for such or propose any. It will be a great disservice to the message in SGGSJ, at least in my way of thinking.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Is "the creator" just as inappropriate as saying "the Sat" with reference to "the thing that is sung about in the Gurbani"?  Actually, it's even less appropriate IMHO, because it is even more prescriptive than "the Sat".

*throws hands in the air*

I give up!  In future, I will just say *mumble* in place of any noun to refer to *mumble*.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 21, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> Is "the creator" just as inappropriate as saying "the Sat" with reference to "the thing that is sung about in the Gurbani"?  Actually, it's even less appropriate IMHO, because it is even more prescriptive than "the Sat".
> 
> *throws hands in the air*
> 
> I give up!  In future, I will just say *mumble* in place of any noun to refer to *mumble*.


Admin Kaur ji "sat" or eternal "truth" that is essence of all indeed is a better way to understand or state. Is it sexy enough for common day usage! I do not know! Is there a need to put a name? I do not know! Can one give any name as a way to remember, of course you can. The issue is when you or I share the name with others where others may not have the same understanding why such a name in the first place. So any name you give at a personal level is as good as any other as long as it is linked to the guidance, the essence of what is and how is. SGGSJ helps us understand what is and how is!

Waheguru/Vaheguru is as good too. Which without trying to define simply states "I am in awe the Gur/Guru/creator" which indeed should be a state of mind for oneself that may help in understanding and continuously discovering more and understanding more.

Sat Sri Akal


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## Ishna (Mar 21, 2016)

There is nothing I can say.


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## swarn bains (Mar 21, 2016)

*ਸਬਦ  ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਬਦ, ਸੁਕਰ  ਸ਼ੁਕਰ, ਸਾਹ ਸ਼ਾਹ  ਹੋਰ ਬਹੁਤ ਹਨ.
Please do not use word akaal sahib, make ti Akaal purakh or God if you are English type only*


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## Ishna (Mar 21, 2016)

LOL, we are familiar with the trouble that saying "God" will get us in, right?

Safer if we all talk about meat and kesh.

Meanwhile, someone better do something about all these pesky "Sahib" references in the Gurbani.


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## swarn bains (Mar 21, 2016)

nice to be mad


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## Sherdil (Mar 21, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> Okay, point taken.  I will refrain from using this term in future.
> 
> How about I just say, "the Sat".  Does the Sat Forgive?
> 
> ...



Akaal Sahib isn't technically wrong, but it sounds a bit odd personally. It's akin to saying "Mr. God". I thought you were being playful when I originally read the title of the thread.

Simply Akaal should suffice. However, it is your perogative if you want to continue using the term. It's all semantics, but if you are engaged in a discussion with someone, it's probably best to use terminology that is familiar.

When in doubt stick with Ik Onkar.

Also, don't say "the Sat". Simply "Sat". It is an all encompassing term. Does existence forgive? The answer is reflected by the peculiarity of the question.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 21, 2016)

I would be interested to know by which authority one has the right to say which is the right or wrong way to address god? 

The SGGS is full of different names for god, it also references many many gods from Hindu mythology that some use as a reference to god, that does not seem to be a problem, but I wonder why the use of Akaal Sahib has brought so many reactions, once again, the content, even of this thread, which is supposed to be about forgiveness, is deemed less important than the label. 

Someone, with a lot of love, has deemed Akaal Sahib a term of reference for god, instead of admiring and sharing in this love, we queue up to pick holes in it. Is it insecurity? do we fear a white persons understanding of Sikhism will be better than our own home grown understanding? Maybe we know in our hearts that our own understanding, that we learned on the knees of our parents, does not quite add up, we are told Sikhi is without rituals, without superstitions, without sexism, racism, casteism, without pride, ego, yet we look around us, and see Sikhi is actually full of such, and actually getting worse, so, I feel we should welcome all input from everyone, and actually see that a point of view devoid of the Punjabi culture has as much merit, if not more than one with.


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## Sherdil (Mar 21, 2016)

It's all semantics, like I said. You can refer to the One as "Jell-O Pudding Sahib" if it suits your fancy, but be prepared to have people look at you as if you have two heads.

I wasn't initially inclined to nitpick at the issue, nor is that my intention now. However seeing that the discussion has veered in this direction, and it has caused Admin Kaur to ask for guidance on the matter, I felt compelled to offer assistance.

Unfortunately, she has also changed the title of the thread. I hope she hasn't taken the criticism by various members to heart, although it should have been more constructive in my opinion.


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## Original (Mar 22, 2016)

Good evening Everyone,

Ambarsaria Ji, your observation below is well founded -



Ambarsaria said:


> *It just occurred to me that sometimes we over complicate the simple or debate where none may be required*



.Guru Gobind Singh Ji  gave hundreds of different names to God and finally declared, 'no name can capture thee'.

Admin Kaur Ji, if the sound of *Akal Sahib* strikes a chord deep down, please continue. After all, the idea is to connect with the whole, of which, you are a part.  If we depart from the proven methods of scientific reasoning to spiritual perspectives , perhaps we can understand our relationship in a more holistic and meaningful way. Moreover, if we were to temporarily suspend some of our assumptions about reality and entertain the notion that there is more to life than meets the eye and that this more can be communicated  with and to, through speech [sound], then, call it Pinocchio if you like.

Our consciousness is intimately related and connected to the infinite energy field of creation, a minute particle of the unified field of pure consciousness [Khalsa] that we call God. In theory, by fully experiencing the part we can experience the whole [waheguru].

Goodnight n God bless everyone !


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## Original (Mar 23, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> So I'm wondering about this shabad which starts on panna 157



Admin Kaur Ji

In reference to *ਮੇਰਾ **ਪ੍ਰਭੁ **ਬਖਸੇ **ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ **॥੨॥ [above], *one would, in the first instance, look for the *"active"* and the *"passive"* voice of the actor making the statement, orally or in writing. And, in this case, it's Guru Amardas Ji [subject, ADJ]. What follows is that in a sentence where the verb is in the active [*ਬਖਸੇ*, meaning, forgive in the context in which it is applied by ADJ] voice, the subject [ADJ] of the sentence acts upon the object [God] of the sentence. Where the verb is in the passive voice, the object of the sentence is acted upon by the subject. For example -

The defendant struck the claimant = active voice = ਬਖਸੇ
The claimant was struck by the defendant = passive voice = ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ

Since *ਮੇਰਾ **ਪ੍ਰਭੁ **ਬਖਸੇ *is delivered in an active voice, meaning, ADJ is declaring  that His God *forgives, *it must accordingly be read as an authoritative account of ADJ's Ekonkar. However, caution must be had when presenting an overview of Ekonkar as nirgun [without attributes].

It must be noted that AP is beyond good n bad, right n wrong, forgive n blame, etc.,,,,.

Hope it helps you to wonder better -


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