# What Is Bhai Gurdas Jee's Key?



## Archived_member2 (Jan 2, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Many preachers say that they have the key given by Bhai Gurdas Jee to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
May I ask if Sikhs have now learnt to worship the key first and the true Guru later?


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dear Balbir ji,
When Bhai ji had presented The Vaaran to G Arjan Dev ji, it was then that Guru Sahib had said that the work was very useful and would be like a 'key' to the understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji.

You would agree that the Bani is not simple and one can always take the help of Vaaran.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

It is a blessing for seekers to have Satsang with true Sikhs on the spiritual path.

Quote "When Bhai ji had presented The Vaaran to G Arjan Dev ji, it was then that Guru Sahib had said that the work was very useful and would be like a 'key' to the understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji."
Please provide a reference when and where Guru Arjan Dev Jee has said so. I will be grateful.

Quote "You would agree that the Bani is not simple and one can always take the help of Vaaran."
Baanee is conformity to reality of Truth. Baanee is simple when one has tasted Truth.

Who has come to know Naam Simran by writing and reading hundreds of articles about Naam Simran? Bhai Gurdas Jee's Baanee, in my observation, is misleading and represents other views than that from the true Gurus.

Strange, avaricious preachers have marketed Bhai Gurdas Jee high to increase their profits. Their greed has placed his writings beside Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Bhai Jee's writings are against the reverend Guru's statement though.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!
> 
> It is a blessing for seekers to have Satsang with true Sikhs on the spiritual path.
> ...


 
Balbir ji,
Kindly do not make statements that are not as per the present edict. Bhai Gurdas ji's writings are held in reverence, I am not sure if these are approved bani or not but there is a clear cut verdict of SGPC on this.Kindly refer to those. 
Why do you unnecessarily write something that may not be seemingly palatable to the readers.?

Anyways, choice has always been yours.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 3, 2008)

i don't have any opinion on the topic right now
but can i question the second part of the statement?

"I am not sure if these are approved bani or not but there is a clear cut verdict of SGPC on this."

SGPC - so let me remind you the backgroundf SGPC - it's a POLITICAL organization. You may like to call it quasi-political but it was fornmed with political motives and is political.

 now SGPC "defines" everything...SGPC gets "outraged", SGPC disallows publication of the bani, SGPC is interested in only "profit"

so do i still listen to SGPC?


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "When Bhai ji had presented The Vaaran to G Arjan Dev ji, it was then that Guru Sahib had said that the work was very useful and would be like a 'key' to the understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji."
Why have you not provided any reference from Guru Arjan Dev Jee where Gurdev has said that?

Quote "Kindly do not make statements that are not as per the present edict."
I did not know that preachers have changed the Sikh edict.

Quote "Bhai Gurdas ji's writings are held in reverence, I am not sure if these are approved bani or not but there is a clear cut verdict of SGPC on this.Kindly refer to those."
O Really! Now they are for approving Bhai Gurdas Jee's writings as Baanee. Who are these unwitting who approve such titles?
Please provide a link to the verdict of SGPC. I will be thankful.

Quote "Why do you unnecessarily write something that may not be seemingly palatable to the readers.?"
I do not agree that true Sikhi should develop acceptably to the taste or mind of ignorant.

**************

Bhai Gurdas Jee was the scribe to write Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Secretly he wrote poems dreaming of the Guru-dom. His writings are not authentic either.
Please ponder. Gurdev recited and Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote.

Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote this in his Vaar 39-1-2.

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਇਕਾਂਗ ਲਿਖਿ ਊੜਾ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਾਇਆ ।
"aykankaaru ikaang|ikhi oorhaa oankaaru|ikhaaiaa|"

Bhai Gurdas Jee is claiming in the above line that Gurdev asked him to write first 'aykankaaru ikaang' then 'oorhaa oankaaru'.

Gurdev truly wrote <>.

Bhai Gurdas Jee's statement is not correct, in my view.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!
> 
> Quote "When Bhai ji had presented The Vaaran to G Arjan Dev ji, it was then that Guru Sahib had said that the work was very useful and would be like a 'key' to the understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji."
> ...


 
kindly clarify.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Other topics discussed by Bhai Gurdas in his _Vaars
_Bhai Gurdas writes in praise of the Creator describing His attributes in the _Gurbani_, but does not give any _Gurbani_ quotation. He discusses, the Guru and his disciples and creation of _Panth _of _Gurmukhs_. He eulogizes the Gurus, life being led by Guru-faced Sikhs, relation between the Guru and the Word, similarity between the Guru and the True Sikh and discusses in detail qualities of a Sikh. He describes the difference between the Guru-oriented - _gurmukhs_ and self-oriented-_manmukhs_. He discusses the daily routine of _gursikhs_, their virtues and their conduct in the world in several _Vaars_.
He discussed in detail Hinduism, Islam, their sects and beliefs without criticising or finding faults in them.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

He discusses the five evils of the human mind responsible for its degradation. In place of the five evil thoughts of lust, anger, greed, infatuation and ego, the Guru oriented or _Gurmukhs_, imbibe Truth, Contentment, Compassion, Duty and Fortitude. He praises the value of _Sadh Sangat,_ or the Holy Congregation.
He relates several stories from epics concerning Dhruv and Prahlad, Rajas Ambrik, Bal, Janak and Hari Chand; the episode of Draupdi; Krishna and Sudama; the story of Ahilya and Gautam Rishi; the conversion of Balmik from dacoit to saint; the liberation of Ajamal, Ganika and Pootna, the evil women.
He praises the various Bhagats: Jaidev, Naam Dev, Trilocha, Dhanna, Beni, Kabir and Rama Nand and Sain, etc. He describes briefly the ten incarnations of Vishnu, and the stories of Mahadev (Shivji), Indra, Brahma, Narad and other Rishis. He mentions their ego in showing miracles.
He discusses the division of four _varnas_ and how these are clashing with one another. Only _Gurmukhs_ are above caste, belonging to one caste; they are ever imbued with the love of the Lord. He describes evolution of human life as the Supreme Being among the 84-lakh species on this earth. Without True Guru (_Satguru_), man keeps groping in the dark, ever engrossed in the distraction of the world, like family relations, business, pilgrimages, holy baths, worship of gods and goddesses and charities.
Listening to the Word of the Guru in the holy congregation (_Sadh Sangat_), the _Gurmukh_ is ever attuned to the Lord, detached from the world like lotus in water. The _Gurmukh _loses ego, and ever accepts the Will of the Lord. Involved in the Creation and filled with lust, anger, opposition, greed, infatuation, deceit and ego, the _manmukhs_ (self-oriented), go astray. Again and again, Bhai Gurdas praises _gurmukhs_, their humility and their ever remaining attuned to the Lord while earning their livelihood, serving the _Sadh Sangat _or holy congregation and doing good in return for evil. The _gurmukhs_ are without ego and do not indulge in greed even in dreams


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Bhai Gurdas gives the names of the important Sikhs of the first six Gurus in the 11th Vaar:
Sikhs of the First Guru: In Pauri 13-14 are enumerated 22 Sikhs of Guru Nanak. Some are identified by their castes and others by their profession. He only mentions that they were beloved of the Guru and were good Sikhs. He writes that Mardana was a good _Rabab_-player and has performed in all congregations, but does not mention the name of Bala among the Sikhs of Guru Nanak. Even earlier in the first _Vaar_ Bhai Gurdas had only mentioned that Rababi Mardana was accompanying the "_Akal Roop Baba Nanak_" when Baba reached Baghdad. If Bala had been a prominent Sikh and had accompanied Guru Nanak during his travels then Bhai Gurdas must have known about it. We can justly conclude that there was no Sikh of Guru Nanak by the name of Bala, and that only Mardana was the constant companion of Guru Nanak during his journeys.
*Sikhs of the Second Guru:* _Pauri_ 15. Among the 12 Sikhs of Guru Angad enumerated here, Bhai Gurdas mentions that Jodh who was liberated, was the cook of the Guru.
*Sikhs of the Third Guru* residing at Dalla: _Pauri_ 16. Here Bhai Gurdas gives 25 names but only mentions that Pandha and Bulla were known as a singer and a writer of the _Gurbani_ respectively.
*Sikhs of the Fourth Guru* residing at Sabherwal: _Pauri_ 17. Here, Bhai Gurdas just gives 21 names, but as before, does not mention any episode connected with any of them.
*Sikhs of the Fifth Guru:* _Pauris_ 18,19,20
In the first list of 27 names is mentioned that Jhanju and Mukand were _kirtanias_.
In the second life of 27 only Ram Das is mentioned as a cook and all are praised as _Gurmukhs_.
In the third list of 16 Sikhs, some are identified by their subcaste. He does not mention that Goend of Ghai sub-caste was a highly respected beloved Sikh of the Guru. He, however, does not give any reason as to how and why he deserved this special praise.
_Sangat_ at Sultanpur: _Pauri_ 21. Here are enumerated 20 names and, in the end, Bhai Gurdas mentions that Sultanpur is a ‘storehouse’ of Gursikhs. This indicates that he is monitoring the names of only prominent Sikhs.
*Important Masands of the Guru:* _Pauri_ 22. Here are mentioned names of 14 well-known _Masands_ and Bhai Gurdas writes that they were all respected _Gurmukhs_.
*Very dear Sikhs of the Guru:* _Pauri_ 23. In this list Bhai Gurdas identifies 21 names by their sub-caste or their physical character and in addition states that each was better than the other.
*Well-known Sikhs of Punjab:* _Pauri_ 24. This list includes 14 names, identified by their caste or profession. Again no reason is mentioned to explain their prominence.
*Sangat of Lahore residing at Mozang:* _Pauri_ 25. Here again the 18 names are identified by their sub caste or profession and that they were all respected Gursikhs.
*Sikhs residing at far off places:* _Pauri_ 26. Here are given names of 15 Sikhs who were residing at Kabul, Kashmir, Sirhind, Thanesar and Fatehpur. Here, again, he does not mention any special detail about any individual Sikh or of the _Sangat_ at those places.
*Sikhs of the Agra Congregation:* _Pauri_ 27. In this list are given 15 names and Bhai Gurdas remarks that all Gursikhs were stringed like the beads of the rosary.
*Sikhs of the Inner Circle:* _Pauri_ 28. Here are given names of 12 Gursikhs who were always in close company of the Fifth Guru. These Sikhs were always at the service of the congregation, but no details are given about any specified work they were doing.
*Sikhs of the Sixth Guru:* _Pauri_ 29-31. In the first list of Sikhs of the Sixth Guru are given 18 names only. In this list of 12 Sikhs mentioned, one was residing at Lashkar, another at Gwalior, one at Ujjain and one at Gujarat. He mentions that large number of Sikhs were residing at Burhanpur.
In the third list of Sikhs of the Sixth Guru are 11 names and, among them, is mentioned one residing at Suhanda, one at Lucknow one at Parag, one at Jaunpur, one at Patna, one at Agra and one at Dhaka.
These lists of Sikhs in the 11th _Vaar_ tells us that by the time of Guru Hargobind Ji, Sikhs had spread out from Punjab to Kabul, Kashmir, central and eastern India (now Bangladesh). Bhai Gurdas, however, does not mention any activity, episode or happening among Sikh-Sangats of those places. He does not give any reason as to why he has not detailed any events, which he has witnessed during his lifetime. He only gives detailed exposition of living according to the teachings of _Gurbani_ in his own words.
*Key or Chronicle?* The remark of Guru Arjun Dev ji that _Vaars_ of Bhai Gurdas "serve as a key to understand _Gurbani_" has been accepted by all of us. There is no doubt that the details of Sikhs of Guru Hargobind and his writing about Guru Hargobind confirm that several of his _vaars _were written during the life of Guru Hargobind ji, i.e. after the compilation of the _Pothi_ Sahib.
This hypothesis that the Gurus were not in favour of anybody writing about the worldly anecdotes, happenings in relation to the Gurus and the Sikhs held true even in the time of Guru Gobind Singhji. All of us accept that Guru Gobind Singh ji had a large number of scholars with him. None of them wrote about the details of martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, or any details of the various battles forced upon Guru Gobind Singh ji. No one recorded the exact details of his last days and ascension. The scholars with Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote mostly stories from the _epics_ and _Puranas_.
The _Vaars_ of Bhai Gurdas clearly indicate that Bhai Gurdas was fully conversant with -and proficient in - the art of history writing. This is borne out by his narration of only significant events from the life of Guru Nanak. There is no doubt that he was prevented from writing about the remarkable events concerning the Gurus and the Sikhs happening in front of him.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Bhai Gurdas, the amanuensis, who inscribed the _Adi Granth_ at the dictation of Guu Arjun was also the author of 39 _vars_ (ballads in the heoric meter) in Punjabi and 556 _kabits_ (couplets) in Braj language. These _vars_ are of great historical and theological importance. The _vars_ are regarded as the key to an understanding of the Sikh scriptures and Sikhism. They are the only really authentic references to the period of the third, fourth, fifth and the sixth Sikh Gurus by a Sikh. Bhai Gurdas’s commentary on Sikh practices is a valuable indication of the state of things at that time.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Bhai Gurdas was born in Goindwal in 1551 AD. He was the son of Datar Chand, the younger brother of the third Sikh Guru Amar Das. The name Gurdas was given to him by Guru Amar Das and he took the child’s education into his own hands. Gurdas was quick to learn and soon became one of the chief exponents of the teachings of the Gurus. On the death of Guru Amar Das, the fourth Guru Ram Das formally initiated Gurdas into the faith and sent him to Agra as a missionary. On the death of Guru Ram Das, Gurdas returned to Amritsar and presented himself before Guru Ram Das’s successor - Guru Arjun. Gurdas was first engaged in trying to appease Prithi Chand, the Guru’s elder brother who had set himself as a rival guru and had launched a campaign of vilification against Guru Arjun. Bhai Gurdas failed in this mission. His var 36 on Prithi Chand’s attitude is fully of vituperation. Then Gurdas came back to Guru Arjun and turned his attention to purely academic pursuits. So Guru Arjun in 1603 AD, when he started the great task of compiling the Adi Granth, chose Gurdas as the scribe. The volume was completed in the summer of 1604 AD and was installed in the Hari Mandir, Amritsar.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

The Mughal Emperor Akbar, while passing through the Punjab desired to scrutinize the sacred volume and see for himself whether there was any truth in the allegation that it contained some references derogatory to Islam and the Prophet. Gurdas was entrusted with this mission of taking the Granth to the Emperor. The volume was opened at random three times, but none of the passages had anything offensive to Muslim susceptibilities. On the contrary, at least two passages echoed sentiments complimentary to the Islamic faith. Akbar made the offering of 51 gold _mohars_ to the Holy Book and presented a pair of expensive Kashmiri Shawls to Gurdas.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

After the martyrdom of Guru Arjun and during the years of his successor Guru Hargobind, who was imprisoned in Gwalior fort, the affairs of the Sikh community were left in the hands of trusted followers among whom were Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Buddha.
Tradition asserts that this Bhai Buddha was the disciple of the first Sikh Guru Nanak and lived from 1506 to 1631 AD. He died at Ramdaspur which is now called Amritsar. He was given the name Bhai Buddha, signifying a wise old man, by Guru Nanak, while still a boy. Bhai Buddha took part in the installation ceremony of the next five Gurus. He was the first Granthi of the Adi Granth. On Guru Hargobind’s release from Gwalior fort from prison on Diwali Day, which Sikhs call ‘Bandi Chhod Diwas’ as Guru Har Gobind, along with his own release, also got the release of 52 Hindu Rajas also imprisoned in the same fort by the Emperor Jehangir. Guru Har Gobind sent Gurdas to Kabul to buy horses as Guru Har Gobind, following the execution of his father, Guru Arjun, decided to arm his followers and then train them as soldiers. Before Gurdas could complete the deal to buy horses, the money was stolen from him and the crestfallen Gurdas, being unable to face his master, fled to Benaras. He was apprehended and was brought to Amritsar. Guru Har Gobind forgave him and Gurdas again resumed his duties as the chief organizer of the then scattered Sikh community. At this time, Guru Har Gobind’s militant ways and his close association with Muslims who had tormented his father Guru Arjun caused a certain amount of unrest in the Sikh community. Gurdas rose to his master’s defence. To him Guru Har Gobind was ‘the destroyer of enemy hordes, the hero of battles, the great warrior’ as well as ‘the great benefactor’.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Gurdas remained celibate and passed away at Goindwal in 1629 AD. His funeral rites were performed by Guru Har Gobind himself.
Bhai Gurdas did not set out to write a work of history, but there are several references, mostly in _var_ 11 to persons and events which are of some importance to the historians of today. In the copies of Gurdas’ _vars_ which are current today, there is the 40th _var_ written by the Sindhi poet of Shikarpur of the same name. This Sindhi Gurdas lived in the time of Banda Bahadur (1670-1716 AD). His composition, though in the same meter as that used by the elder Gurdas is of the higher poetic quality and is frequently quoted in describing the mission of Guru Gobind Singh.


http://www.sikhreview.org/september2007/heritage1.htm

More to follow after the postings Of Veer balbir ji.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote from Sikh80 (Post #7) of this thread  "kindly clarify."
Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote that he wrote as asked 'ooraa' 'Oankaar'. My curiosity is to know who asked him to write so. This was not Gurdev, in my view. Gurdev always wrote <> but never (1 Oankaar) 1 EAMkwr.

Quote from Sikh80 (Post #8) Jee "Bhai Gurdas writes in praise of the Creator describing His attributes in the Gurbani, but does not give any Gurbani quotation."
Strange, the true Gurus have also not mentioned him or his writings anywhere.
Still, preachers try to convince Sikhs that his writings are the keys to understand Gurbaanee.

Quote from Post #9 "He discusses the daily routine of gursikhs, their virtues and their conduct in the world in several Vaars."
The virtues and activities of a true Sikh are but different in eyes from Gurdev than those described by Bhai Gurdas Jee.

Quote from Post #10 "Sikhs of the First Guru: In Pauri 13-14 are enumerated 22 Sikhs of Guru Nanak. Some are identified by their castes and others by their profession."
Gurdev realized God in everybody and identified him as God.
Interesting, Bhai Gurdas Jee identified persons around Gurdev by their castes and profession.

**************

Dear Sikh80 Jee, all that you have referred are the excerpts from articles written by chorus line authors.
Has someone found also something written about Bhai Gurdas Jee by the true Gurus?


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Bhai Gurdas was scion of the family of Guru Amar Das ji, and contemporary of four Gurus, Guru Amar Das ji, Guru Ram Das Ji, Guru Arjun Devji and Guru Hargobind ji. He was born circa 1555 and died in 1629/1637 in the presence of Guru Hargobindji. He is accepted as a nephew of Guru Amar Das ji, and a maternal uncle of Guru Arjun Devji. Bhai Gurdas must have been hearing anecdotes from the lives of the Gurus and about the situation in Punjab at the advent of Guru Nanak. There was perhaps no written record about the life and times of Guru Nanak, but stories must have been going round by word of mouth.
Poetry starts welling out from the mind at a young age. As soon as poetry started forming in his mind, he commenced writing about the story of the new emerging society whose foundation was laid by Guru Nanak. His sensitive mind quickly concluded that Guru Nanak had in fact organised a new "_Nirmal _(pure) _Panth_". This was an entirely new dispensation differing from all existing religions and sects. He studied the all-important existing religions and their interactions with one another to understand the reasons which lead Guru Nanak to embark upon the creation of a new path or movement. He considered it necessary to describe the practice of religion by the people when Guru Nanak came on the scene.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Poetry starts welling out from the mind at a young age. As soon as poetry started forming in his mind, he commenced writing about the story of the new emerging society whose foundation was laid by Guru Nanak. His sensitive mind quickly concluded that Guru Nanak had in fact organised a new "_Nirmal _(pure) _Panth_". This was an entirely new dispensation differing from all existing religions and sects. He studied the all-important existing religions and their interactions with one another to understand the reasons which lead Guru Nanak to embark upon the creation of a new path or movement. He considered it necessary to describe the practice of religion by the people when Guru Nanak came on the scene.
*Historical Events mentioned in the first Vaar:*
Bhai Gurdas gives us a great insight into Guru Nanak in his first _Vaar_, which happens to be the longest one, with 49 _pauris_. He describes the Creation of the Universe and the beliefs accepted by the ancient Hindu mythology in the first 19 _pauris_. He makes his comments on the Creation of the Universe and the behaviour of humans. The all-pervading _Onkar_ revealed Himself by his One Word and created the infinite Cosmos. Gurdas writes that it appears as if in His "One Hair" there are myriads of galaxies. In each world He revealed Himself in uncountable forms. He created the four _Yugas,_ or ages, of this world. In the _Satyug, Treta_ and _Duapur Yug_ people lived for long years, but they did not construct palaces or temples. Dwelling briefly on the events of the _Satyug, Treta _and _Duapur Yugas_, Bhai Gurdas describes that in the present age of Kaliug the low instincts have come to the forefront. Ego and hate reign supreme. Everyone behaves according to his own whims, and is ever engrossed in his personal welfare. So long the Lord does not appear on the earth the True guru (Satguru), the mystery of the world cannot be understood. Bhai Gurdas does not find any difference between the True Guru and God. Satguru dispels the prevailing darkness. _Kaliyug_ is the ocean of ignorance. Some worship stones, others worship graves, and some recite magical formulae and practise spells and charms. Hypocrisy is practiced at large. Different religious practices have cropped up. Some worship the moon, the sun; whilst others worship the earth and the sky. Some propitiate air, water and fire to appease _Yama_ the god of Death. Mankind is immersed in delusions. Four _Varnas_, Ten orders of ascetics and twelve of Yogis have emerged. Naked Jains and other _sadhus_ and mendicants have their own way of living. Many varieties of Brahmins commenced giving different expositions of religious philosophy by commenting on the Shastras, the Vedas and the Puranas. Mutual rivalries confused the public. In the twentieth _pauri_ Bhai Gurdas describes the prevalent tenets of Islam. After Mohammad Sahib, 72 divisions appeared among Muslims. _Pirs_ and _Aulias_ propagated the rituals of Ramzan _Rozas, Eid_ and _Namaz_. Temples were demolished and mosques erected in their place. Non-conformists were declared apostates (_kafirs_) and killed.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

*Episode X*
Baba back to Kartarpur and giving charge to Guru Angad: 45
Pauri 45.1 _Jiarati kari Multan di phiri Kartarpure no aia._
Pauri 45.4 _Maria sika jagati vichi Nanak nirmal panth chalaia._
Pauri 45.5 _Thapia Lahina jivade guriai siri chhatr phiria._
Pauri 45.6 J_oti joti milaikai satigur Nanak rup vataia._
Pauri 45.7 _Lakhi na koi sakai acharaje acharai dikhaia_.
Pauri 45.8 _Kai palati sarup banaia._
Returning from Multan, Baba reached Kartarpur. Just like minting a new coin in the world, Nanak commenced a pure _Panth_ (religion). While still alive, he appointed Lehna and spread the Canopy of Guruship over his head. Merging his own light with him, the True Guru Nanak just changed his body. No one could understand this strange happening. Nanak converted his "body" into a new form.
*When did Bhai Gurdas write his Vaars:*
Bhai Gurdas does not mention the fact himself. All of us have accepted the fact that Bhai Gurdas was the scribe of the _Pothi Sahib_ or the first recension of Guru Granth Sahib, which was installed in the sanctum sanctorum of the newly constructed Darbar Sahib at Amritsar in 1604. It appears strange and not logical to state that Bhai Gurdas wrote his _Vaars_ during the years 1610-1628 as stated by Dr. Sukhdial Singh. (_Punjab da Itihas_, Vol. 5 _Guru Kaal_ 1469-1708, Punjabi University 2000 p. 40) This means that Bhai Gurdas became a poet in the last years of his life! There are three good reasons which point out that Bhai Gurdas wrote major portions of his famous poetry (_Vaars_) much before he was chosen to be the scribe of _Pothi Sahib_ by Guru Arjun Dev Ji.
1. Poetry is a born gift and it starts forming in the mind of the poets at a very young age, usually in the teens.
2. Bhai Gurdas must have established himself as a known writer and poet _before_ Guru Arjun Dev ji selected him for being the scribe of the holy _Pothi Sahib_.
3. Bhai Gurdas was born about 20 years after Guru Nanak Dev ji had left this world. Bhai Gurdas selected only 10 important episodes from Guru’s life, which have a bearing on Sikh thought. He left out so many other prevalent anecdotes, which he considered unimportant. It is quite likely that some of them may have been uncovered much later. The story of _Panja Sahib_ at Hasan Abdal is one such story. There is doubt that while returning from Baghdad Guru Nanak passed through this place and had met ‘_Wali Kandhari_’, a respected pir or "_wali_" of the place and the imprint of the hand on the stone is indeed that of Guru Nanak. The story of the "_wali_" throwing a big rock on the Guru Sahib from the hillstop is incredible. Guru Nanak may have met the "_wali_" by the side of the natural spring. "_Wali_" may have requested Guru Nanak to let his right palm imprint be sculptured on a rock to commemorate his visit and meeting him. It is most unlikely that the "_wali_" would hurl a rock on a "_Haji_" and ‘_Akal Roop_’ Baba Nanak. Even if Bhai Gurdas knew this episode as described above, his must have ignored it as of little importance.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear balbir ji,
Kindly clarify further.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

There should be hardly any one who is serious about _Gurmat,_ or the Guru’s path, and find this routine difficult to follow. Everybody goes to bed at night and everybody gets up in the morning. So, everybody can spare a few extra minutes for the Guru Granth reading in the morning and, then, possibly at night, from the twenty-four hours we are given every day. For more serious seekers, there will always be another interval sometime during the day to seek the Guru’s vision through reciting from the Guru Granth. Once we begin on this path, gradually, the reading periods begin to become a regular feature of our existence, and, if we are fortunate, we are silently contemplating on the Guru’s verses at any or every hour of the day. This way we learn to open consciousness, if it is but for a moment, and find ourselves in a state of receptivity to the Guru’s vision. This state is considered worthy of praise:
kurbwxI iqnW gurisKW gurbwxI inq gwie suxMdy] Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 12, Pauri 23"Bhai Gurdas says that he is sacrifice to those seekers who engage in singing and listening to the Guru’s verses at all the time".
According to Bhai Gurdas, besides the Sikhs, the recitation of the Guru Granth was also employed to propagate the Guru’s views to all others in the world:
kir pwT gRMQ jgq sB qirau ]Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 41, Pauri 213.​"The whole world may undertake the sacred reading of the Guru Granth to sail through the sea of temptations in the human existence".
Formally, the _Gurbani_ reading is done privately as well as in an environment of a congregation, or any other public or private place especially furnished for this purpose. We will limit ourselves to discussion of a situation in which an individual seeker wishes to engage in one to one conversations with the Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Conclusion: When you begin to read, you may either set a number of pages to read or go on reading the Guru Granth for as long as you wish to. If I have opportunity, I like to read until I feel that I obtained something that I would like to dwell on within my heart for a period of time. There is no fixed ritual as to how much should one read. You may read only one paragraph, or you may read several pages before some particular thought attracts your attention. *When this occurs, you may close your eyes and take that thought into your contemplation. Think about it; hold it right in front of you; repeat it to yourself. Ask yourself: Why did this particular verse come to me? Does it have an inner meaning for me? What is its significance to me at this time and how will it touch my life in near future?
*As you continue contemplating and brooding on a verse, another thought may come to your attention. Consider both of these thoughts. Is there any relationship between them? Is there any coherence? Why did this quotation follow the first one? By this time probably a third idea and then a fourth will have come, and all these thoughts will have come out of your awareness, out of your consciousness. *In this short period of the reading in meditation that may have been of only a few minutes’ duration, you have experienced spirituality revealing itself, you have opened yourself to divine Intelligence and Love. This is the Word of God, which is quick and sharp and powerful.* You now realize that, for a seeker, the Guru Granth reading is not just an ordinary reading but something much more; something that only ritualistic reading cannot accomplish. Bhai Gurdas describes this process of reading the Guru Granth as:
ruKhMu Gr Cwvwie QMm QMmHwieAw ] isr krvq Drwie dyq GVwieAw ]
Lohy nwl jVwie pUr qrwieAw ] lK lhir drIAwie pwr lMGwieAw ]
gur isKW BY Bwie Sbd kmwieAw ] ieks ipCY lwie lK CfwieAw ]Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 14, Pauri (9)​3.​
_"Trees serve as pillars and roofs for the houses. They are sawed and nailed to make boats for people to cross the rivers and myriads of other waves. Likewise, the Sikhs of the Guru, in love and discipline of the Lord, practice the Words of the Guru. They exhort their own thoughts and those of numerous others to follow the unique by doing the same, and be liberated from bondage."
_Another point is that _paath_ once undertaken and grasped in the consciousness will continue to affect behaviors during rest of the time. Only a visionless person would read without meaning it to incorporate its knowledge in all other aspects of life. Their lips and their minds will not bluff again:
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq ahY ]SGGS, M 1, P. 1013.​_"One reads the scriptures, but still tells lies; such is the intellect of one who has no guru or vision".
_Such is a test of success in sacred reading that it stays with all the times and prevents one from performing undesirable acts during the post-reading time.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Happy reading Veer ji.
I am tired now and should leave.
SSA.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

After reading few poems from Bhai Gurdas Jee I found him to be a moral science teacher. He is concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles.

The true Gurus sing about Naam Simran that leads a person out of duality, right and wrong.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Conclusion: When you begin to read, you may either set a number of pages to read or go on reading the Guru Granth for as long as you wish to. If I have opportunity, I like to read until I feel that I obtained something that I would like to dwell on within my heart for a period of time. There is no fixed ritual as to how much should one read. You may read only one paragraph, or you may read several pages before some particular thought attracts your attention. *When this occurs, you may close your eyes and take that thought into your contemplation. Think about it; hold it right in front of you; repeat it to yourself. Ask yourself: Why did this particular verse come to me? Does it have an inner meaning for me? What is its significance to me at this time and how will it touch my life in near future?
> *As you continue contemplating and brooding on a verse, another thought may come to your attention. Consider both of these thoughts. Is there any relationship between them? Is there any coherence? Why did this quotation follow the first one? By this time probably a third idea and then a fourth will have come, and all these thoughts will have come out of your awareness, out of your consciousness. *In this short period of the reading in meditation that may have been of only a few minutes’ duration, you have experienced spirituality revealing itself, you have opened yourself to divine Intelligence and Love. This is the Word of God, which is quick and sharp and powerful.* You now realize that, for a seeker, the Guru Granth reading is not just an ordinary reading but something much more; something that only ritualistic reading cannot accomplish. Bhai Gurdas describes this process of reading the Guru Granth as:
> ruKhMu Gr Cwvwie QMm QMmHwieAw ] isr krvq Drwie dyq GVwieAw ]
> Lohy nwl jVwie pUr qrwieAw ] lK lhir drIAwie pwr lMGwieAw ]
> ...



This entire comment is truly wondrous!


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

We should be thankful to Respected Balbir ji for his unceasing efforts to demean the established philosphies..blessings to Dear Veer ji.


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2008)

I know what you mean.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Cheers!!!!


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## Sikh80 (Jan 3, 2008)

Re: Writings of Bhai Gurdas ji


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

nanak naam chardi kala, tere bhaney sarbat da bhala


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "We should be thankful to Respected Balbir ji for his unceasing efforts to demean the established philosphies..blessings to Dear Veer ji."
Preachers first injected Bhai Gurdas Jee's writings among Sikhs. Sikhs became impure. Their relation with the One True Guru was thus diluted. Since then the door is opened for generations of writers preaching who are searching Naam themselves. Watch it. Thousands are exhibiting their expertise on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee but seekers remain thirsty as ever.
Ignorance always tries to establish in Sansaara till God sends HIS Message.

Quote from Aad0002 Jee "I know what you mean."
I am also astounding on your knowing. May I ask?  Are the Baabaas having a rest who used to answer through your writings?

Quote from Amarsanghera Jee "nanak naam chardi kala, tere bhaney sarbat da bhala."
This is True. All who are blessed with Naam realize this.

**************

Preachers are carrying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee on their head. The so-called key of the true Guru is in their pocket. Could they ever open this treasure for them or others?


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*respected veer Balbir Ji says:*




> Has someone found also something written about Bhai Gurdas Jee by the true Gurus?


 

*thankyou much Veer ji.....*

*HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY REFERENCE FROM DHAN DHAN GURU SAHIB JI ABOUT 'Balbir Singh who will be appearing at SPN during this time period .....  ....' *


*please respond...............*


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

Re: Shiva connection?

A revealation ,its click away....


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

*Moderator's Note*: 
So far, Balbir Ji has failed to provide a direct reply to most of the questions asked. It appears that Balbir Ji has nothing to say about what is Sikh Gurmantra, what name is preferable over Waheguru when referring to God or, who is his Guru and his Gurumantra. It is evident that he has no regard for ancillary Sikh literature, history, or the Rehit prescribed during Amrit Sanchar. We try to allow a free discussion but as usual, this message contains unnecessary and insidious remarks in place of direct and sincere answers or opinion. Further discussion seems unnecessary. We will be closing this thread on 8/5/07 at 11 PM MDT. Kindly post any remaining thoughts before then. We will not allow another message like the one below or any personal attacks from others. Thanks for your cooperation.

For full story please visit:
MODERATOR'S CLOSURE Re: Sikh vocabulary


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

Re: What is Sabad Guroo? - please teach us


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

why look to others for answers when they are all within???


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from Surinder Jee "thankyou much Veer ji....."
One should thank someone through whom he receives a treatment like Naam Simran.

Quote "HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY REFERENCE FROM DHAN DHAN GURU SAHIB JI ABOUT 'Balbir Singh who will be appearing at SPN during this time period ..... ....'" 

Gurdev is singing.
Buj blbIr bRhm suK swgr grq prq gih lyhu AMgurIAw ] 
"Bhuj balbeer brahm sukh saagar garat parat gahi lehu anguriaa." SGGS Ang 203-1

**************

Quote from Sikh80 Jee "So far, Balbir Ji has failed to provide a direct reply to most of the questions asked."
Balbir Singh seems to have no hunger for your questions. Right now he is listening, God's answers.

Quote "It appears that Balbir Ji has nothing to say about what is Sikh Gurmantra,"
True Sikhs do not need to ask others 'what is Gurmantra'.

Quote "Re: What is Sabad Guroo? - please teach us."
Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari are the four stages of the same speech. Vaikhari is the last stage of the expressed sound that once originated at Para level. It flows in one direction, from the origin toward outwards through each existence.
Sabad Guru leads one from Vaikhari to the Para level and finally merging in God..

One receives the true Naam through the true Guroo, Saint or Sadhu. Nobody has received it by reading, discussing or visiting a discourse on it.

**************

Gurdev knew about the secret writings about Bhai Gurdas Jee, in my view. They did not include any word written 'Gurdas' in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee to save Sikhs. Preachers but may be pushing many for a jump in Narak Koop. Their turn is faked and got the last number at the end.

Only sincere seekers participate truthfully in Satsangs. Others are arguing about their recipes, candies made of it and confectionary. 


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> 
> ...


 
I am giving below the links where Balbir veer ji has something to say. These are nice stories at Sikhnet forum.
Please click away and the advice Of Veer Ji would be available.
############################

Both of these links are Of sikhnet site. Balbir veer ji has ,probably, forgotten. 
Kindly click and you will be reminded of. 
MODERATOR'S CLOSURE Re: Sikh vocabulary
Re: What is Sabad Guroo? - please teach us


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

gauVI mhlw 5 ]
Buj bl bIr bRhm suK swgr grq prq gih lyhu AMgurIAw ]1] rhwau ]
sRvin n suriq nYn suMdr nhI Awrq duAwir rtq ipMgurIAw ]1]
dInw nwQ AnwQ kruxw mY swjn mIq ipqw mhqrIAw ]
crn kvl ihrdY gih nwnk BY swgr sMq pwir auqrIAw ]2]2]115]


*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji is not telling about 'Balbir Singh who will appear on SPN at this time period'.....................   Veer Balbir ji get out of the illussion..............................*


*'bhuj + bal'- can be treated as one word but 'bal + beer'  cannot at all any ways.   actually these are three different words taken together---*

*bhujbalbeer    not just balbeer    dear brother Balbir Singh Ji.......*

*and it is read- BhujBalBeerBrahmSukhSaagar.................*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2008)

ਭੁਜ  ਬਲ  ਬੀਰ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਸੁਖ  ਸਾਗਰ  ਗਰਤ  ਪਰਤ  ਗਹਿ  ਲੇਹੁ  ਅੰਗੁਰੀਆ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
Bẖuj bal bīr barahm sukẖ sāgar garaṯ paraṯ geh lėho angurī*ā. ||1|| rahā*o.
O Brave and Powerful God, Ocean of Peace, I fell into the pit - please, take my hand.

*WoW!

*AAD sach JugAAD sach. "aad" are my initials. :shifty: I was going to ask Admin if I could change my account name. Now I think I will keep it. Anyway, Bhai Gurdas rocks.


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2008)

For people just starting out, 
ਭੁਜ  ਬਲ  ਬੀਰ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਸੁਖ  ਸਾਗਰ  ਗਰਤ  ਪਰਤ  ਗਹਿ  ਲੇਹੁ  ਅੰਗੁਰੀਆ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
Bẖuj bal bīr barahm sukẖ sāgar garaṯ paraṯ geh lėho angurī*ā. ||1|| rahā*o.
O Brave and Powerful God, Ocean of Peace, I fell into the pit - please, take my hand.
Ang 203, line 1

*WoW!

*AAD sach JugAAD sach. "aad" are my initials. :shifty: I was going to ask Admin if I could change my account name. Now I think I will keep it. Anyway, Bhai Gurdas rocks.


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

> Gurdev knew about the secret writings about Bhai Gurdas Jee, in my view. They did not include any word written 'Gurdas' in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee to save Sikhs. Preachers but may be pushing many for a jump in Narak Koop. Their turn is faked and got the last number at the end.
> 
> Only sincere seekers participate truthfully in Satsangs. Others are arguing about their recipes, candies made of it and confectionary.


 
*it makes sense why you made an effort to find bal+beer to make your name appear in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.........................*

*if people will be using your terminology, look how many people's names are in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-----*

*AMAN, AAD, SANTOKH, MANMOHAN, CHARANKANWAL, JAGWINDER.......................   i can go on and on................*

*whom you think you are teaching,  kindergarden kids........................he he he he *


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*aad ji we were thinking about the same thing at the same time..............  he he Balbir ji what makes that possible............*


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2008)

A conspiracy or a trick.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "For full story please visit:
MODERATOR'S CLOSURE Re: Sikh vocabulary"

They perhaps handcuff sikhnet moderators. This Website may be running a business. They have to care that their clientage is not decreasing.
The moderator returned my post with the following baseless remark.
"Your message violates guideline #5. It appears you do not know about Guru Panth
Kahlsa who passes Guru's other directives down the generations, and that Guru
Granth contains the Bani (speech) that you mention. This is why it is called
Guru Granth. Kindly do some homework on Sikhi. What you gave below has been
discussed many times. Kindly search old topics and post your remaining question
in an existing thread on this topic.
Thanks."

This is surprising that these people cannot differentiate between the speech from the Guru and their written words. 
They may block my posts but they cannot keep true seekers behind their bars long.

For the interest of many readers I am publishing the returned post here again.

**************

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

The question raised is "What is Sabad Guru?"
In my experience, Sabad Guru is Naam transferred through the Guru's mouth as Gurbaanee. One realizes Sabad Guru only at the time of receiving it, not by reading about it.

**************

The wisdom of the Sabad Guru seems to get lost among Sikhs due to many reasons.
One of those is this, in my view.

They wrote and compiled the most important messages from the Gurus under their vigilance. Among others this had a purpose. Nothing should be added or changed in their messages. Those are complete.
Unfortunately after the completion of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee many writers mushroomed up claiming what Gurus conveyed them personally to extend. The trend of these writers has grown tremendously in this modern age of information.
Such writers influence most people than the original message from the Gurus. I want to mention an example here.

The enlightened Gurdev wrote experiencing Truth.
"banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray." SGGS Ang 982-11 (Guru Ram Das Jee)
Speech is the Guru. A guru is the speech. Within Speech are all Nectars.

After few decades a writer claimed that the Guru instructed him to spread the message "sab sikhan ko hukam hai guroo maanyo granth". In my view, this was the beginning of the disaster. This message from the writer, Bhai Prahalad Jee, spoiled all efforts and the spiritual upward trend from the Gurus. The preacher mind has replaced the word speech (Baanee) by the word 'Granth'.

I am not able to find one instance when the Gurus suggested us to read a Granth, to receive Naam from the Guru.

I wonder, the worldly progress of Sikhi. Today's Sikh may be engaged with all what the writers after the Gurus have instructed. Would someone please name one activity that a Sikh is doing these days received directly through the Gurus?

Where are the true Sikhs of the true Guru?

My reverence for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is more than ever when I discover this wonderful treasure repeatedly diving within with the help of Naam.

**************

Quote from Baldev Jee "Gurbani is our Guru if you feel this is not the case then please let us know who is our Guru?"
Gurbaanee is Guru's speech. The Guru's written messages suggest us to receive it. One realizes the Guru ship after he is blessed with Naam.
I do not know what to say about people who carry the printed messages from the Gurus and claim that they have now Naam, the Sabad Guru.

Quote from Bharat Jee "Many of the translations the initiator of this thread provided for the various verses quoted by him seem to be completely wrong."
I have not requested anybody to throw away the translations.  His mind is preserving. Please do not feel shaky. Ignorance goes by receiving true Naam Simran, not by reading more translations.

Quote "In my opinion,the reason for raising this thread question in the first place was to show that "I am the only one who really knows the answer."
Your mind may be fixed. I am not sure. The Gurus did not write Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee either to show that "I am the only one who really knows the answer."
This is God's Mastee what he speaks through whom.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

Dear Balbir ji,
The thread you started says something about Bhai Gurdas ji. You are lost in between. It is strongly impressed upon, though I may be junior to you, to kindly not to distort the things and the bani. What Guru Sahibaan have done is ok for most of us. What Bhai GUrdas ji has done suits us also. So why state something that may not be palatable to the reader/s .


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all, Surinder Jee and her Aad0002 Jee!

Let us come back to the topic.

Bhai Gurdas Jee is pleading in his Vaar 36-3-1.

ਚੋਰੁ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਚੋਰੀਆਂ ਓੜਕਿ ਦੁਖ ਭਾਰੀ ।
"choru karai nit choreeaan aorhaki dukh bhaaree."
A thief commits thefts daily but ultimately has to suffer heavily.

ਨਕੁ ਕੰਨੁ ਫੜਿ ਵਢੀਐ ਰਾਵੈ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ।
"naku kannu pharhi vaddheeai raavai par naaree."
Holding the ears and nose, we chop of the person who ravishes another woman.

May I ask if they should chop off ears and nose of the Sikh who ravishes another woman? Should Sikhs learn something more from Bhai Gurdas Jee?


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*I thought I read you Veer Balbir Ji something like the following in one of the posts in this thread:*



> Balbir Singh seems to have no hunger for your questions. Right now he is listening, God's answers.


 
*what makes  you think people like me neech will have hunger for your questions????????*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Have you anything to say about Bhai Gurdas Jee's poems and its interpretation from Baabaas?

Quote "what makes you think people like me neech will have hunger for your questions????????"
I do not know why you feel neech? What all you have done?
My questions are for those, whom fake preachers are misleading? They should close their eyes who do not like to read those.

Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)




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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is teaching us time and again how to live, how to behave, how to treat yourself and others:*

*ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥*
*ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥*


*ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥*


*ਨੀਚਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਨੀਚੀ ਹੂ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਚੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਡਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਰੀਸ ॥ ਜਿਥੈ ਨੀਚ ਸਮਾਲੀਅਨਿ ਤਿਥੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ॥੪॥੩॥*

*ਕਥਨੀ ਕਥਉ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਓਰੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਦਰੁ ਹੋਰੁ ॥ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਭਾਣੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੮॥੪॥*



*And Guru Sahib is also teaching us what kind of neech one must not be......*

*ਦੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਪਿਰ ਕਾ ਸੁਆਉ ॥ ਫਿਕਾ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਨਾ ਨਿਵਹਿ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਸੁਆਉ ॥੧॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਵਸਿ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਠਾਕੀਐ ਗਿਆਨ ਮਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਵਾਰੀਓਨੁ ਲਾਇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਚਲਦੀਆ ਨਾਮੇ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਸਦਾ ਰਾਵਹਿ ਪਿਰੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਸਚੀ ਸੇਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥ ਪਿਰ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਮੋਹੀਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇ ॥੩॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਭਾਵੰਤੀ ਨਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਾ ਸਭਰਾਈ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ਪਿਰ ਕੈ ਹੇਤਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥੪॥ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਰਖਿਓਨੁ ਸਚੈ ਅਲਖਿ ਅਪਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸਚੈ ਭਾਇ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥੫॥ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਗੁਣ ਕਾ ਗਲਿ ਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਿਰਮਲੁ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਵਣਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਤਨੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੬॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਊਤਮਾ ਜਤਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਸਭ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਹੈ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਕੀੜਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੭॥ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਕਰਦੀ ਸਭ ਫਿਰੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਹਉ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਈ ਸਚੈ ਰਹੇ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੮॥੮॥੩੦॥*

*ਸਿੰਮਲ ਰੁਖੁ ਸਰਾਇਰਾ ਅਤਿ ਦੀਰਘ ਅਤਿ ਮੁਚੁ ॥ ਓਇ ਜਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਸੇ ਕਿਤੁ ॥ ਫਲ ਫਿਕੇ ਫੁਲ ਬਕਬਕੇ ਕੰਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਹਿ ਪਤ ॥ ਮਿਠਤੁ ਨੀਵੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਤਤੁ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਨਿਵੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਪਰ ਕਉ ਨਿਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਧਰਿ ਤਾਰਾਜੂ ਤੋਲੀਐ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੁ ਗਉਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਦੂਣਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਜੋ ਹੰਤਾ ਮਿਰਗਾਹਿ ॥ ਸੀਸਿ ਨਿਵਾਇਐ ਕਿਆ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਰਿਦੈ ਕੁਸੁਧੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥*

*ਕਪੜੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਾ ਛਡਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਜਾਵਣਾ ॥ ਮੰਦਾ ਚੰਗਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ ਹੁਕਮ ਕੀਏ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਦੇ ਰਾਹਿ ਭੀੜੈ ਅਗੈ ਜਾਵਣਾ ॥ ਨੰਗਾ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਚਾਲਿਆ ਤਾ ਦਿਸੈ ਖਰਾ ਡਰਾਵਣਾ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਉਗਣ ਪਛੋਤਾਵਣਾ ॥੧੪॥*



*It all depends what we follow with our neech budhi..................*
*and what kind of neech we are...........................*
*And feeling neech and behaving neech are two different concepts.............. totally opposite ones.........*



*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ ਗਾਵਿਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਤੀਰਥਿ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਜਿਨ ਜਨਹੁ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚੋਜ ਵਿਡਾਨੀ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਸੋਈ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਸੀ ਅਵਰ ਸਭ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਓਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਨੀ ॥੨॥੫॥੧੧॥*




*In contrast to Gurbani all your philosophy falls apart veer Balbir ji ...............maaf karna*




*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

> In my experience, Sabad Guru is Naam transferred through the Guru's mouth as Gurbaanee. One realizes Sabad Guru only at the time of receiving it, not by reading about it.


 
*So the reciever is either physically 300 to 500 years old, which is only done by yogies and was not recomended by our Guru Sahibaan. Or this person has a living human Guru. So has a totally different philosophy and simply trying to shop for more followers for his phylosophy by manipulating others phylosophy.*

*As a Sikh devotes his/her life to Satguru,*
*And Satguru Sahib is Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A true follower never leave his/her Guru and follow others.*

*And seems like this person thinks that he can shop for true followers. I am not sure if this ever occured to this person that what he is shopping for?????? What one can get through this technique is -all fake followers, people who are not sincere to their Guru now, will they stay sincere to his guru for any long.......................... *


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*just wondering once again .......*

*QUESTIONS FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CONVINCE THE SIKHS TO BELIEVE THAT THEIR BELIEF IN 'DHAN “DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI” BEING THEIR LIVING GURU' IS SUBJECT TO BE CORRECTED.*

*A True Guru is a Guru because His Soul is Merged with The Higher Self. *
*For us(SIKHS) ALL OUR GURUS ARE TRUE GURUS.  *
*For us(SIKHS) All our Eleven Gurus are LIVING(ATMA never DIES).  *
*For us(SIKHS) TRUTH never dies. It is not bound to time and space. ALL GURU SAHIBAAN AND ETERNAL LIVING JOTE IN THE FORM OF DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI*
*are everywhere, all the time, Adole, Apaar…… *
*Baani Prabh Ki Sabh ko Bolay, Aap Adole Na Kabhu Doley………*




*Now we all know this Truth that human body is limited to time and space so has to expire one day. So is Guru Ji’s. There is no Guru living in a physical body forever. CAN YOUR GURU'S PHYSICAL BODY LIVE FOREVER??????*

*And I hope we all agree on this point that Atma never dies. DO WE??????*

*So for us(SIKHS), all our Gurus are here; now; have not gone anywhere. ARE THEY GONE ANYWHERE????*

*For all those who have been beating the drum Living Guru, Living Guru; In a Human Body, and this new thing: only a mouth can transfer Naam, In a Human Body; The Only Way, The Only Way-*
*Will your Guru be of NO USE TO YOU AFTER HE/SHE LEAVES HIS/HER HUMAN ABODE?????? What mouth you will be depending upon later on............*

*Are his/her words(truth) those are coming out of his/her mouth now, will be useless after he/she leaves the physical body???????*


*bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]*
*guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5]*


*forgive me neech *


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Quote "It all depends what we follow with our neech budhi..................
and what kind of neech we are...........................
And feeling neech and behaving neech are two different concepts.............. totally opposite  ones........."

What happened? Suddenly somebody has become a congregation of personalities, by shifting from 'me neech' to 'we neech'.
O.K. I agree that somebody is neech. Bhai Gurdas is suggesting a technique how a neech jonee person gets best fruits. 
In his Vaar 25-6-6 Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote this.

ਮੁਸਕੁ ਬਿਲੀਅਹੁ ਮੇਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਜਲਸ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਮਹ ਮਹਕਾਇਆ ।
musaku bileeahu maydu kari majalas andari mah mahakaaiaa|.
Fragrance from cats by extracting, in gathering we scent the scent.

ਨੀਚ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੬॥ 
neech joni utamu phalu paaiaa ?6?
Neech creatures get best fruit.

The lantern on the dark way for Preacher Bhai Gurdas Jee is guiding Sikhs. He is suggesting them to draw out fragrance from cats and use that scent in a gathering to get the best results.

I found this in Internet. Real Civet is a glandular secretion obtained from small pockets next to the testicles of the Civet cat. It is a powerful scent magically. It has been used for centuries to attract the opposite sex.

Is it not a surprise why Baabaas and preachers are after Bhai Gurdas Jee?

**************

My reverend Guru is singing how to get best results. This is sounding quite different.

nIc jwiq hir jpiqAw auqm pdvI pwie ]
"Neech jaat hari japtiaa utam padvee paai." SGGS Ang 733-7
Low caste japping Hari got highest dignity.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*Your post doesn't make any sense to me neech, veer ji!!!!!!! *


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

hm AMDuly AMD ibKY ibKu rwqy ikau cwlh gur cwlI ] 
ham anDhulay anDh bikhai bikh raatay ki-o chaalah gur chaalee.
I am blind, totally blind, entangled in corruption and poison. How can I walk on the Guru's Path?
sqguru dieAw kry suKdwqw hm lwvY Awpn pwlI ]1] 
satgur da-i-aa karay sukh-daata ham laavai aapan paalee. ||1||
If the True Guru, the Giver of peace, shows His kindness, He attaches us to the hem of His robe. ||1||
gurisK mIq clhu gur cwlI ] 
gursikh meet chalhu gur chaalee.
O Sikhs of the Guru, O friends, walk on the Guru's Path.
jo guru khY soeI Bl mwnhu hir hir kQw inrwlI ]1] rhwau ] 
jo gur kahai so-ee bhal maanhu har har kathaa niraalee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Whatever the Guru says, accept that as good; the sermon of the Lord, Har, Har, is unique and wonderful. ||1||Pause||
hir ky sMq suxhu jn BweI guru syivhu byig bygwlI ] 
har kay sant sunhu jan bhaa-ee gur sayvihu bayg baygaalee.
O Saints of the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny, listen: serve the Guru, quickly now!
sqguru syiv Krcu hir bwDhu mq jwxhu Awju ik kwl@I ]2] 
satgur sayv kharach har baaDhhu mat jaanhu aaj ke kaalHee. ||2||
Let your service to the True Guru be your supplies on the Lord's Path; pack them up, and don't think of today or tomorrow. ||2||
hir ky sMq jphu hir jpxw hir sMqu clY hir nwlI ] 
har kay sant japahu har japnaa har sant chalai har naalee.
O Saints of the Lord, chant the chant of the Lord's Name; the Lord's Saints walk with the Lord.
ijn hir jipAw sy hir hoey hir imilAw kyl kylwlI ]3] 
jin har japi-aa say har ho-ay har mili-aa kayl kaylaalee. ||3||
Those who meditate on the Lord, become the Lord; the playful, wondrous Lord meets them. ||3||
hir hir jpnu jip loc luocwnI hir ikrpw kir bnvwlI ] 
har har japan jap loch lochaanee har kirpaa kar banvaalee.
To chant the chant of the Lord's Name, Har, Har, is the longing I long for; have Mercy upon me, O Lord of the world-forest.
jn nwnk sMgiq swD hir mylhu hm swD jnw pg rwlI ]4]4] 
jan naanak sangat saaDh har maylhu ham saaDh janaa pag raalee. ||4||4||
O Lord, unite servant Nanak with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; make me the dust of the feet of the Holy. ||4||4||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

key is gurparsad


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

gur prswid myrY min visAw jo mwgau so pwvau ry ]
gur parsaad mayrai man vasi-aa jo maaga-o so paava-o ray.
By Guru's Grace, He dwells within my mind; whatever I ask for, I receive.
nwm rMig iehu mnu iqRpqwnw bhuir n kqhUM Dwvau ry ]1]
naam rang ih man tariptaanaa bahur na katahooN Dhaava-o ray. ||1||
This mind is satisfied with the Love of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; it does not go out, anywhere, anymore. ||1||
hmrw Twkuru sB qy aUcw rYix idnsu iqsu gwvau ry ]
hamraa thaakur sabh tay oochaa rain dinas tis gaava-o ray.
My Lord and Master is the highest of all; night and day, I sing the Glories of His Praises.
iKn mih Qwip auQwpnhwrw iqs qy quJih frwvau ry ]1] rhwau ]
khin meh thaap uthaapanhaaraa tis tay tujheh daraava-o ray. ||1|| rahaa-o.
In an instant, He establishes and disestablishes; through Him, I frighten you. ||1||Pause||
jb dyKau pRBu Apunw suAwmI qau Avrih cIiq n pwvau ry ]
jab daykh-a-u parabh apunaa su-aamee ta-o avrahi cheet na paava-o ray.
When I behold my God, my Lord and Master, I do not pay any attention to any other.
nwnku dwsu pRiB Awip pihrwieAw BRmu Bau myit ilKwvau ry ]2]2]131]
naanak daas parabh aap pehraa-i-aa bharam bha-o mayt likhaava-o ray. ||2||2||131||
God Himself has adorned servant Nanak; his doubts and fears have been dispelled, and he writes the account of the Lord. ||2||2||131||


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

gur prswdI vyKu qU hir mMdru qyrY nwil ]
gur parsaadee vaykh too har mandar tayrai naal.
By Guru's Grace, see that the Temple of the Lord is within you.
hir mMdru sbdy KojIAY hir nwmo lyhu sm@wil ]1]
har mandar sabday khojee-ai har naamo layho samHaal. ||1||
The Temple of the Lord is found through the Word of the Shabad; contemplate the Lord's Name. ||1||
mn myry sbid rpY rMgu hoie ]
man mayray sabad rapai rang ho-ay.
O my mind, be joyfully attuned to the Shabad.
scI Bgiq scw hir mMdru pRgtI swcI soie ]1] rhwau ]
sachee bhagat sachaa har mandar pargatee saachee so-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
True is devotional worship, and True is the Temple of the Lord; True is His Manifest Glory. ||1||Pause||
hir mMdru eyhu srIru hY igAwin rqin prgtu hoie ]
har mandar ayhu sareer hai gi-aan ratan pargat ho-ay.
This body is the Temple of the Lord, in which the jewel of spiritual wisdom is revealed.
mnmuK mUlu n jwxnI mwxis hir mMdru n hoie ]2]
manmukh mool na jaannee maanas har mandar na ho-ay. ||2||
The self-willed manmukhs do not know anything at all; they do not believe that the Lord's Temple is within. ||2||
hir mMdru hir jIau swijAw riKAw hukim svwir ]
har mandar har jee-o saaji-aa rakhi-aa hukam savaar.
The Dear Lord created the Temple of the Lord; He adorns it by His Will.
Duir lyKu iliKAw su kmwvxw koie n mytxhwru ]3]
Dhur laykh likhi-aa so kamaavanaa ko-ay na maytanhaar. ||3||
All act according to their pre-ordained destiny; no one can erase it. ||3||
sbdu cIin@ suKu pwieAw scY nwie ipAwr ]
sabad cheeneh sukh paa-i-aa sachai naa-ay pi-aar.
Contemplating the Shabad, peace is obtained, loving the True Name.
hir mMdru sbdy sohxw kMcnu kotu Apwr ]4]
har mandar sabday sohnaa kanchan kot apaar. ||4||
The Temple of the Lord is embellished with the Shabad; it is an Infinite Fortress of God. ||4||
hir mMdru eyhu jgqu hY gur ibnu GorMDwr ]
har mandar ayhu jagat hai gur bin ghoranDhaar.
This world is the Temple of the Lord; without the Guru, there is only pitch darkness.
dUjw Bwau kir pUjdy mnmuK AMD gvwr ]5]
doojaa bhaa-o kar poojday manmukh anDh gavaar. ||5||
The blind and foolish self-willed manmukhs worship in the love of duality. ||5||
ijQY lyKw mMgIAY iqQY dyh jwiq n jwie ]
jithai laykhaa mangee-ai tithai dayh jaat na jaa-ay.
One's body and social status do not go along to that place, where all are called to account.
swic rqy sy aubry duKIey dUjY Bwie ]6]
saach ratay say ubray dukhee-ay doojai bhaa-ay. ||6||
Those who are attuned to Truth are saved; those in the love of duality are miserable. ||6||
hir mMdr mih nwmu inDwnu hY nw bUJih mugD gvwr ]
har mandar meh naam niDhaan hai naa boojheh mugaDh gavaar.
The treasure of the Naam is within the Temple of the Lord. The idiotic fools do not realize this.
gur prswdI cIin@Aw hir rwiKAw auir Dwir ]7]
gur parsaadee cheenHi-aa har raakhi-aa ur Dhaar. ||7||
By Guru's Grace, I have realized this. I keep the Lord enshrined within my heart. ||7||
gur kI bwxI gur qy jwqI ij sbid rqy rMgu lwie ]
gur kee banee gur tay jaatee je sabad ratay rang laa-ay.
Those who are attuned to the love of the Shabad know the Guru, through the Word of the Guru's Bani.
pivqu pwvn sy jn inrml hir kY nwim smwie ]8]
pavit paavan say jan nirmal har kai naam samaa-ay. ||8||
Sacred, pure and immaculate are those humble beings who are absorbed in the Name of the Lord. ||8||
hir mMdru hir kw hwtu hY riKAw sbid svwir ]
har mandar har kaa haat hai rakhi-aa sabad savaar.
The Temple of the Lord is the Lord's Shop; He embellishes it with the Word of His Shabad.
iqsu ivic saudw eyku nwmu gurmuiK lYin svwir ]9]
tis vich sa-udaa ayk naam gurmukh lain savaar. ||9||
In that shop is the merchandise of the One Name; the Gurmukhs adorn themselves with it. ||9||
hir mMdr mih mnu lohtu hY moihAw dUjY Bwie ]
har mandar meh man lohat hai mohi-aa doojai bhaa-ay.
The mind is like iron ****, within the Temple of the Lord; it is lured by the love of duality.
pwris ByitAY kMcnu BieAw kImiq khI n jwie ]10]
paaras bhayti-ai kanchan bha-i-aa keemat kahee na jaa-ay. ||10||
Meeting with the Guru, the Philosopher's Stone, the mind is transformed into gold. Its value cannot be described. ||10||
hir mMdr mih hir vsY srb inrMqir soie ]
har mandar meh har vasai sarab nirantar so-ay.
The Lord abides within the Temple of the Lord. He is pervading in all.
nwnk gurmuiK vxjIAY scw saudw hoie ]11]1]
naanak gurmukh vanjee-ai sachaa sa-udaa ho-ay. ||11||1||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs trade in the merchandise of Truth. ||11||1||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

thanks surinder ji

beautiful

all i wanted to say


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

<<naanak gurmukh vanjee-ai sachaa sa-udaa ho-ay. ||11||1||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs trade in the merchandise of Truth.>>>

tera tera sab tera tera.....

waheguru........


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2008)

Balbir ji 
 I wanted to be finished discussing Bhai Gurdas with you since you lost the argument badly in another thread. But you want to know the key to Bhai Gurdas ji?

You quote this line in Vaar 36 Pauree 3 line 1

 ਚੋਰੁ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਚੋਰੀਆਂ ਓੜਕਿ ਦੁਖ ਭਾਰੀ ।
"choru karai nit choreeaan aorhaki dukh bhaaree."
A thief commits thefts daily but ultimately has to suffer heavily.

And in line 2

 ਨਕੁ ਕੰਨੁ ਫੜਿ ਵਢੀਐ ਰਾਵੈ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ।
"naku kannu pharhi vaddheeai raavai par naaree."
Holding the ears and nose, we chop of the person who ravishes another woman.

Then you ask…

May I ask if they should chop off ears and nose of the Sikh who ravishes another woman? Should Sikhs learn something more from Bhai Gurdas Jee?

But all of this is misleading, and you know it.

The message of Vaar 36 is entirely about self-deception – how we create an illusory world and then give ourselves an important part to play in this drama that we have created and that we believe.  Bhai Gurdas was a studious man. He traveled to various cities to learn from religious scholars. He never married but he was respectful of women. He never had children yet he doted on his nieces. He was a friend, advisor and associate of 6 guru’s and lived during the lifetime of 7 gurus. He was entrusted with the compilation of the Adi Graanth. His life after all these many centuries is a story of a somewhat contemplative and learned man. Why do/did Sikhs of the Shabd Guru trust him?

* Here is a hint*
_
Also Vaar 36 Pauri 21_

 ਹਉ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਗੁਨਹਗਾਰ ਹਉ ਬੇਮੁਖ ਮੰਦਾ ।
hau aparaadhee gunahagaar hau baymukh mandaa|
I am a criminal, a sinner, evil and apostate.

ਚੋਰੁ ਯਾਰੁ ਜੂਆਰਿ ਹਉ ਪਰ ਘਰਿ ਜੋਹੰਦਾ ।
choru yaaru jooaari hau par ghari johandaa|
I am a thief, adulterer; gambler who always keeps his eye upon other's 

ਨਿਦਕੁ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ ਠਗੁ ਦੇਸ ਠਗੰਦਾ ।
nidaku dusatu haraamakhor tdagu days tdagandaa|
I am a slanderer, knave, venal and a swindler who goes on cheating the whole world.

ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਦੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਕਰੰਦਾ ।
kaam krodh madu|obhu mohu ahankaaru karandaa|
I feel proud of my sexual urges, anger, greed, infatuations and other intoxications.

ਬਿਸਵਾਸਘਾਤੀ ਅਕਿਰਤਘਣ ਮੈ ਕੋ ਨ ਰਖੰਦਾ ।
bisavaasaghaatee akirataghan mai ko n rakhandaa|
I am treacherous and ungrateful; none likes to keep me with him. Remember,

ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮੁਰੀਦਾ ਢਾਢੀਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਖਸੰਦਾ ॥੨੧॥੩੬॥ਛੱਤੀ॥
simari mureedaa ddhaaddheeaa satigur bakhasandaa ॥21॥36॥chhatee॥
0 singing disciple! that the true Guru, alone is competent to grant pardon (for your sins).
​ 
Understand Bhai Gurdas’s humanity and humility. He confesses that he is weak and that he is a sinner. We can identify with him. He gives us permission to admit that we are imperfect, that we sin. He tells us that there is only One who can/will pardon us. No need to pretend any longer. So we trust what he says because he isn’t lying to himself, and therefore isn’t lying to us. And if we want the Truth, then we must turn to the only *One* who never lies.

* Here is the key*
_
Vaar 37, Pauri 20, line 8_

 ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਖੀਐ *ਸਚਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ *॥੨੦॥
 gur parachai guru aakheeai *sachi sachu siaanai *॥20॥
Knowledge of the Guru is called the Guru; *only the truth identifies the truth.*​ 
Not you, not me, not Bhai Gurdas, not anyone else.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from Surinder Jee "Are his/her words(truth) those are coming out of his/her mouth now, will be useless after he/she leaves the physical body???????"
Paper Guru does not speak. The person sitting near the paper Guru reading him is also not your true Guru. He may be an imitator.

Only Partakh (apparent) Guru is the true Guru. Sabad Guru is enlivening His Speech. He may be coming from His mouth or within as Sabad Guru.
He is surely not a printed paper.

bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]
guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5] SGGS Ang 982-11

**************

Gurdev is singing in a proving mood.

siqguru dyau prqiK hir mUriq jo AMimRq bcn suxwvY ]
"Satguru deo partakhi hari moorati jo anmrit bachan sunaavai." SGGS Ang 1262-5
Sat Guru Deo is evident of Hari Moorat who speaks Amrit Bachan.

Ignorant sit in front of their printed paper Guru waiting for a Baabaa to come and read from it. This is their obvious (Partakh) Guru speaking exclusively for them.

The true Gurus have often suggested all to seek the company of true Partakh Guru, sadhu or the saint. It is for a purpose to receive true Naam.

Your Baabaas are playing this theater though but with a difference. They do not know what true Naam is. It is like the hungry person is promising to feed people satisfied.

**************

Dear Aad0002 Jee, we have just started learning Panjabee of Bhai Gurdas Jee and talking about it. 


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear Aad0002 Jee and Surinder Jee!

Please do not feel ashamed to quote your Maarg Darsak Bhai Gurdas Jee. I hope you have not decided to discard your leading preacher.

Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

*The same Bani has been recorded(on paper) and read by all Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan. Bhai Bala Ji and Bhai Mardana Ji's seva is also wrapped up in there( je mehsoos karan di shakti Waheguru den ta pataa lagda hai iss di ahmeeat da) Guru Sahib kehnday ne-- Galleen Jog na hoi......*

*Paper Guru is totally reliable and perfect, POORAN GURU Jagdi Jot hai, SOME CANNOT SEE IT, who cares....... one doesn't have any harm from it as it is TOTAL TRUTH. We are in safe hands. Safe from today's bhekhi baabey in human form trying to cheat the whole humanity. When they dont have any of there own words they steal others writtings and claim them to be there own.............. *

*By having just ordinary consciousness a person cannot become a Guru or a preacher.  Real spiritual insight is needed......* 

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

pUrw siqguru jy imlY pweIAY sbdu inDwnu ]
pooraa satgur jay milai paa-ee-ai sabad niDhaan.
If we meet the Perfect True Guru, we obtain the Treasure of the Shabad.
kir ikrpw pRB AwpxI jpIAY AMimRq nwmu ]
kar kirpaa parabh aapnee japee-ai amrit naam.
Please grant Your Grace, God, that we may meditate on Your Ambrosial Naam.
jnm mrx duKu kwtIAY lwgY shij iDAwnu ]1]
janam maran dukh kaatee-ai laagai sahj Dhi-aan. ||1||
The pains of birth and death are taken away; we are intuitively centered on His Meditation. ||1||
myry mn pRB srxweI pwie ]
mayray man parabh sarnaa-ee paa-ay.
O my mind, seek the Sanctuary of God.
hir ibnu dUjw ko nhI eyko nwmu iDAwie ]1] rhwau ]
har bin doojaa ko nahee ayko naam Dhi-aa-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Without the Lord, there is no other at all. Meditate on the One and only Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||
kImiq khxu n jweIAY swgru guxI AQwhu ]
keemat kahan na jaa-ee-ai saagar gunee athaahu.
His Value cannot be estimated; He is the Vast Ocean of Excellence.
vfBwgI imlu sMgqI scw sbdu ivswhu ]
vadbhaagee mil sangtee sachaa sabad visaahu.
O most fortunate ones, join the Sangat, the Blessed Congregation; purchase the True Word of the Shabad.
kir syvw suK swgrY isir swhw pwiqswhu ]2]
kar sayvaa sukh saagrai sir saahaa paatisaahu. ||2||
Serve the Lord, the Ocean of Peace, the Supreme Lord over kings and emperors. ||2||
crx kml kw Awsrw dUjw nwhI Twau ]
charan kamal kaa aasraa doojaa naahee thaa-o.
I take the Support of the Lord's Lotus Feet; there is no other place of rest for me.
mY Dr qyrI pwrbRhm qyrY qwix rhwau ]
mai Dhar tayree paarbarahm tayrai taan rahaa-o.
I lean upon You as my Support, O Supreme Lord God. I exist only by Your Power.
inmwixAw pRBu mwxu qUM qyrY sMig smwau ]3]
nimaani-aa parabh maan tooN tayrai sang samaa-o. ||3||
O God, You are the Honor of the dishonored. I seek to merge with You. ||3||
hir jpIAY AwrwDIAY AwT phr goivMdu ]
har japee-ai aaraaDhee-ai aath pahar govind.
Chant the Lord's Name and contemplate the Lord of the World, twenty-four hours a day.
jIA pRwx qnu Dnu rKy kir ikrpw rwKI ijMdu ]
jee-a paraan tan Dhan rakhay kar kirpaa raakhee jind.
He preserves our soul, our breath of life, body and wealth. By His Grace, He protects our soul.
nwnk sgly doK auqwirAnu pRBu pwrbRhm bKisMdu ]4]12]82]
naanak saglay dokh utaari-an parabh paarbarahm bakhsind. ||4||12||82||
O Nanak, all pain has been washed away, by the Supreme Lord God, the Forgiver. ||4||12||82||


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

pUry gur kw suin aupdysu ] 
pooray gur kaa sun updays. 
Listen to the Teachings of the Perfect Guru; 

pwrbRhmu inkit kir pyKu ] 
paarbarahm nikat kar paykh. 
see the Supreme Lord God near you. 
swis swis ismrhu goibMd ] 
saas saas simrahu gobind. 
With each and every breath, meditate in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe, 
mn AMqr kI auqrY icMd ] 
man antar kee utrai chind. 
and the anxiety within your mind shall depart. 
Aws Ainq iqAwghu qrMg ] 
aas anit ti-aagahu tarang. 
Abandon the waves of fleeting desire, 
sMq jnw kI DUir mn mMg ] 
sant janaa kee Dhoor man mang. 
and pray for the dust of the feet of the Saints. 
Awpu Coif bynqI krhu ] 
aap chhod bayntee karahu. 
Renounce your selfishness and conceit and offer your prayers. 
swDsMig Agin swgru qrhu ] 
saaDhsang agan saagar tarahu. 
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, cross over the ocean of fire. 
hir Dn ky Bir lyhu BMfwr ] 
har Dhan kay bhar layho bhandaar. 
Fill your stores with the wealth of the Lord. 
nwnk gur pUry nmskwr ]1] 
naanak gur pooray namaskaar. ||1|| 
Nanak bows in humility and reverence to the Perfect Guru. ||1||


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## simpy (Jan 4, 2008)

pUry gur qy vifAweI pweI ]
pooray gur tay vadi-aa-ee paa-ee.
From the Perfect Guru, I have obtained glorious greatness.
AicMq nwmu visAw min AweI ]
achint naam vasi-aa man aa-ee.
The Naam, the Name of the Lord, has spontaneously come to abide in my mind.
haumY mwieAw sbid jlweI ]
ha-umai maa-i-aa sabad jalaa-ee.
Through the Word of the Shabad, I have burnt away egotism and Maya.
dir swcY gur qy soBw pweI ]1]
dar saachai gur tay sobhaa paa-ee. ||1||
Through the Guru, I have obtained honor in the Court of the True Lord. ||1||
jgdIs syvau mY Avru n kwjw ]
jagdees sayva-o mai avar na kaajaa.
I serve the Lord of the Universe; I have no other work to do.
Anidnu Andu hovY min myrY gurmuiK mwgau qyrw nwmu invwjw ]1] rhwau ]
an-din anad hovai man mayrai gurmukh maaga-o tayraa naam nivaajaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Night and day, my mind is in ecstasy; as Gurmukh, I beg for the bliss-giving Naam. ||1||Pause||
mn kI prqIiq mn qy pweI ]
man kee parteet man tay paa-ee.
From the mind itself, mental faith is obtained.
pUry gur qy sbid buJweI ]
pooray gur tay sabad bujhaa-ee.
Through the Guru, I have realized the Shabad.
jIvx mrxu ko smsir vyKY ]
jeevan maran ko samsar vaykhai.
How rare is that person, who looks upon life and death alike.
bhuiV n mrY nw jmu pyKY ]2]
bahurh na marai naa jam paykhai. ||2||
She shall never die again, and shall not have to see the Messenger of Death. ||2||
Gr hI mih siB kot inDwn ]
ghar hee meh sabh kot niDhaan.
Within the home of the self are all the millions of treasures.
siqguir idKwey gieAw AiBmwnu ]
satgur dikhaa-ay ga-i-aa abhimaan.
The True Guru has revealed them, and my egotistical pride is gone.
sd hI lwgw shij iDAwn ]
sad hee laagaa sahj Dhi-aan.
I keep my meditation always focused on the Cosmic Lord.
Anidnu gwvY eyko nwm ]3]
an-din gaavai ayko naam. ||3||
Night and day, I sing the One Name. ||3||
iesu jug mih vifAweI pweI ]
is jug meh vadi-aa-ee paa-ee.
I have obtained glorious greatness in this age,
pUry gur qy nwmu iDAweI ]
pooray gur tay naam Dhi-aa-ee.
from the Perfect Guru, meditating on the Naam.
jh dyKw qh rihAw smweI ]
jah daykhaa tah rahi-aa samaa-ee.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord permeating and pervading.
sdw suKdwqw kImiq nhI pweI ]4]
sadaa sukh-daata keemat nahee paa-ee. ||4||
He is forever the Giver of peace; His worth cannot be estimated. ||4||
pUrY Bwig guru pUrw pwieAw ]
poorai bhaag gur pooraa paa-i-aa.
By perfect destiny, I have found the Perfect Guru.
AMqir nwmu inDwnu idKwieAw ]
antar naam niDhaan dikhaa-i-aa.
He has revealed to me the treasure of the Naam, deep within the nucleus of my self.
gur kw sbdu Aiq mITw lwieAw ]
gur kaa sabad at meethaa laa-i-aa.
The Word of the Guru's Shabad is so very sweet.
nwnk iqRsn buJI min qin suKu pwieAw ]5]6]4]6]10]
naanak tarisan bujhee man tan sukh paa-i-aa. ||5||6||4||6||10||
O Nanak, my thirst is quenched, and my mind and body have found peace. ||5||6||4||6||10||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

jis aap mehervaan mera Akal jiyo
tis hee Gur charan milave.....


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

Dear Balbir ji,
Frankly speaking, most of us would love to read Vaaran if we get an access to them as it has been stated that these help the process of understanding simpler.
In this context even if you say that Bhai Guru das ji has played some role, let it be so.Does it matter?


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*especialy who cares about a person who is against a Pooran Satguru, steals His Bani and calls it his own or his Gurdev's bani. *

*Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib Sache Patshah De Bachan from Panna # 302/303:*




*ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦਇਆ ਸਦਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਇਕੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਜਿ ਵੈਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਤਿਸਟਿਆ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ ਮਨਾਇਦਾ ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਬੁਰਾ ਕਿਉ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਜੇਹਾ ਕੋ ਇਛਦਾ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਜਿਦੂ ਕਿਛੁ ਗੁਝਾ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥*


*ਕੋਈ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਫਿਟੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਕਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਰਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਦਾ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜਿਨ ਜਪਿਆ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੧॥*




*ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਧਰਮ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਕੋ ਬੀਜੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਓਨਾ ਹਲਤਿ ਪਲਤਿ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਓਇ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਚੀ ਪੈਨਾਏ ॥ ਇਕਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਖੋਟੁ ਨਿਤ ਖੋਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਓਹੁ ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਖਾਏ ॥ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਰਾਫੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੁਆਵਗੀਰ ਸਭਿ ਉਘੜਿ ਆਏ ॥ ਓਇ ਜੇਹਾ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਤੇਹਾ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਓਇ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹੇ ਦਯਿ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਹੀ ਸਿਰੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਆਪੇ ਵਰਤੈ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਚਲਤ ਸਬਾਏ ॥੧॥*



*ਇਕੁ ਮਨੁ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਸੋ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਗਲਾ ਕਰੇ ਘਨੇਰੀਆ ਜਿ ਘਰਿ ਵਥੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਨ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨੋ ਦੁਖ ਭੁਖ ਹੈ ਹਥੁ ਤਡਹਿ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੰਗਾਇ ॥ ਕੂੜੁ ਠਗੀ ਗੁਝੀ ਨਾ ਰਹੈ ਮੁਲੰਮਾ ਪਾਜੁ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਇ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਲੋਹਾ ਪਾਰਸਿ ਭੇਟੀਐ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੁਵਰਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਇ ॥੨॥*



*ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਜੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਮਤ ਸੁਚ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਹੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਵੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਰਖ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥ ਜੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ਪੂਜੇ ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਇਛੇ ਫਲ ਪਾਵੈ ॥*




*ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਮਾਰ ਦਿਵਾਵੈ ॥ ਫੇਰਿ ਓਹ ਵੇਲਾ ਓਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਆਪੇ ਖਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਰਕਿ ਘੋਰਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਖੜਿਆ ਜਿਉ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਇ ਗਲਾਵੈ ॥ ਫਿਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਵੈ ਤਾ ਉਬਰੈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੧॥*



*ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਓਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਕੂੜੋ ਕਰਿ ਬੁਝੈ ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਝਗੜੇ ਦਯਿ ਓਸ ਦੈ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਗਲ ਫਰੋਸੀ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੀ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਹੰਢੈ ਜਿਉ ਰੰਨ ਦਹਾਗਣਿ ਓਸੁ ਨਾਲਿ ਮੁਹੁ ਜੋੜੇ ਓਸੁ ਭੀ ਲਛਣੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from Surinder Jee "The same Bani has been recorded(on paper) and read by all Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan."
This shows the influence of preachers and mind on lost people.
The true Gurus are singing and writing that one realizes truth through Naam Simran, not by reading their writings.

Quote "je mehsoos karan di shakti Waheguru den ta pataa lagda hai iss di ahmeeat da."
Inertia and its properties are also God's Will. I agree.

Quote "Paper Guru is totally reliable and perfect, POORAN GURU . . ."
Be happy with your paper Guru. My Pooran Guru is Sabad Guru.
May I ask if your Pooran Guru has ever talked about the Paper Guru?

Quote "Paper Guru is totally reliable and perfect, POORAN GURU Jagdi Jot hai."
Why people need a Jot (light) to read your paper Guru?

Quote "SOME CANNOT SEE IT, who cares."
Nobody needs to care when fanatics are caring under God's Will.

Quote "We are in safe hands. Safe from today's bhekhi baabey in human form trying to cheat the whole humanity. When they dont have any of there own words they steal others writtings and claim them to be there own.............."
Is this the reason some are stealing translations from others, copying and pasting those in their posts on forums? Have they anything of their own to say?

Quote "By having just ordinary consciousness a person cannot become a Guru or a preacher. Real spiritual insight is needed......"
How many certificates has your institution issued up to now?

Quote "humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness."
Nobody is the authority here to forgive someone. When will your excuses have an end?

Quote from your post #72 "especialy who cares about a person who is against a Pooran Satguru, steals His Bani and calls it his own or his Gurdev's bani."
Sinners who put the true Gurus in jail, on the hot plate or buried alive charged them similarly. Incarnation seems to continue at all levels.

**************

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from the true Gurus.

**************

Quote from Sikh80 Jee "Frankly speaking, most of us would love to read Vaaran if we get an access to them as it has been stated that these help the process of understanding simpler."
May I ask? Is something left to read and understand? Better take care to receive true Naam. By realizing that reading and understanding of mind become superfluous.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਮਾਰ ਦਿਵਾਵੈ ॥ ਫੇਰਿ ਓਹ ਵੇਲਾ ਓਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਆਪੇ ਖਾਵੈ ॥*



*ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਓਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਕੂੜੋ ਕਰਿ ਬੁਝੈ ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਝਗੜੇ ਦਯਿ ਓਸ ਦੈ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥*


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## Sikh80 (Jan 5, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> May I ask? Is something left to read and understand? Better take care to receive true Naam. By realizing that reading and understanding of mind become superfluous.
> 
> Balbir Singh


Reading is essential to make one remember as to what we are and what we should be. The daily hammering does the work. Yes ,you are right veer ji..that one should strive for the truth.
regards.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 5, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Many preachers say that they have the key given by Bhai Gurdas Jee to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
> ...



From what I have read Bhai Gurdas's Varan are often metaphorical. If one can understand these metaphors one can understand Bani.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "Reading is essential to make one remember as to what we are and what we should be."
Who likes a person who needs instructions to read repeatedly? Are all saps gathered around the paper Guru?

Quote "The daily hammering does the work."
Which iron headed persons have put them on fire?

Quote "Yes ,you are right veer ji..that one should strive for the truth."
With God's Blessing, rarely someone gets these impulses.
Business Baabaas are but worried of each customer.

**************

Quote from Randip Jee "From what I have read Bhai Gurdas's Varan are often metaphorical. If one can understand these metaphors one can understand Bani."

Please listen. Guru Arjan Dev. Jee is singing.

ijsu qUM quTw so quDu iDAwey ]
ijsu qUN quTw so quDu iDAwE ]
"jis tooN tuthaa so tuDh Dhi-aa-ay."
Whom You activate he meditates on You.

swD jnw kw mMqRü kmwey ]
swD jnw kw mN»u kmwE ]
"saaDh janaa kaa mantru kamaae." SGGS Ang130-19
Saintly people's Mantra earns.

Does someone really need a metaphor from Bhai Gurdas Jee to understand any or the above Vaaks from Gurdev?
Strange, with what have your Baabaas and preachers have entangled the simple heart seekers.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਓਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਕੂੜੋ ਕਰਿ ਬੁਝੈ ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਝਗੜੇ ਦਯਿ ਓਸ ਦੈ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥*


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਧਰਮ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਕੋ ਬੀਜੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਓਨਾ ਹਲਤਿ ਪਲਤਿ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਓਇ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਚੀ ਪੈਨਾਏ ॥ ਇਕਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਖੋਟੁ ਨਿਤ ਖੋਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਓਹੁ ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਖਾਏ ॥ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਰਾਫੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੁਆਵਗੀਰ ਸਭਿ ਉਘੜਿ ਆਏ ॥ ਓਇ ਜੇਹਾ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਤੇਹਾ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਓਇ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹੇ ਦਯਿ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਹੀ ਸਿਰੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਆਪੇ ਵਰਤੈ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਚਲਤ ਸਬਾਏ ॥੧॥*


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

khu nwnk CMq dieAwl mohn ky mn hir crx ghIjY AYsI mn pRIiq kIjY ]4]1]4]
kaho naanak chhant da-i-aal mohan kay man har charan gaheejai aisee man pareet keejai. ||4||1||4||
Says Nanak, chant the Hymns of the merciful and fascinating Lord, O mind. Grasp the lotus feet of the Lord, and enshrine such love for Him in your mind. ||4||1||4||


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan De Paavan Bachan Ne:


mo kau kIjY dwsu dws dwsn ko hir dieAw Dwir jgMnwQw ]3]
mo ka-o keejai daas daas daasan ko har da-i-aa Dhaar jagannaathaa. ||3||
Make me the slave of the slave of the slaves of the Lord; bless me with Your Mercy, O Lord of the Universe. ||3||

so one must not be making fun of or denouncing  God lovers. And as far as history tells everybody, Bhai Gurdas Ji is  a God Lover.............  at least me neech doesn't have any doubts about it............

and me neech believe in LIVING GURBANI.....................................

breathing/eating/sleeping/talking///   GURBANI

Gurbani Baneeay........................  is my motto



humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

siqgur bcn qum@wry ] 
satgur bachan tumHaaray.
O True Guru, by Your Words,
inrgux insqwry ]1] rhwau ] 
nirgun nistaaray. ||1|| rahaa-o.
even the worthless have been saved. ||1||Pause||
mhw ibKwdI dust ApvwdI qy punIq sMgwry ]1] 
mahaa bikhaadee dusat apvaadee tay puneet sangaaray. ||1||
Even the most argumentative, vicious and indecent people, have been purified in Your company. ||1||
jnm BvMqy nrik pVMqy iqn@ ky kul auDwry ]2] 
janam bhavantay narak parhantay tinH kay kul uDhaaray. ||2||
Those who have wandered in reincarnation, and those who have been consigned to hell - even their families have been redeemed. ||2||
koie n jwnY koie n mwnY sy prgtu hir duAwry ]3] 
ko-ay na jaanai ko-ay na maanai say pargat har du-aaray. ||3||
Those whom no one knew, and those whom no one respected - even they have become famous and respected at the Court of the Lord. ||3||
kvn aupmw dyau kvn vfweI nwnk iKnu iKnu vwry ]4]1]141] 
kavan upmaa day-o kavan vadaa-ee naanak khin khin vaaray. ||4||1||141||
What praise, and what greatness should I attribute to You? Nanak is a sacrifice to You, each and every moment. ||4||1||141||


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Those, who have no experience on matter they talk, start singing soon borrowed songs.

Thanks for the referred Vaaks from Gurdev. I feel fine that He spoke Vaaks full of truth specially with you. I hope you have understood those.

Please say something about Bhai Gurdas Jee and his key. I have found many keys in his bunch that do not fit to open Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2008)

Balbir ji,

Let's Pray For Truth!

It is Sri Akaal's_ kirpa _that some of these threads do not become a pie-throwing contest. In taking your question seriously, Surinder ji and a few others are sharing the words of the Guru as part of the discussion. This is almost a warning -- because you always manage to stop short of breaking forum rules. Why do you use derogatory terms like _Those, who have no experience on matter they talk, start singing soon borrowed songs_? It is throughout everything you have written. Why not engage in debate instead of rebuke?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

i have  question

if someone gets the key...assuming if it exists... what can he/she do with it

can they duplicate the key?


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## spnadmin (Jan 5, 2008)

amarsanghera ji

I should log off and pay attention to housework. But this is more interesting.  Only a few people have found the key -- and could duplicate it.

 ਪਹਿਲਾ ਬਾਬੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਬਖਸੁ ਦਰਿ ਪਿਛੋਦੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਘਾਲਿ ਕਮਾਈ ।
 pahilaa baabay paayaa bakhasu dari pichhoday dhiri ghaali kamaaee|
 First of all Baba Nanak obtained the gate of the grace (of Lord) and then He underwent and earned the rigorous discipline( of heart and mind).

 ਰੇਤੁ ਅੱਕੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਰੋੜਾ ਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੀਅ ਵਿਛਾਈ ।
 raytu aku aahaaru kari rorhaa kee gur keea vichhaaee|
 He fed himself with sand and swallow-wort and made stones his bedding i.e. he enjoyed poverty too.

 ਭਾਰੀ ਕਰੀ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਵਡੇ ਭਾਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਬਣਿ ਆਈ ।
 bhaaree karee tapasiaa vaday bhaagi hari siu bani aaee|
 He offered hid full devotion and then he was fortunate to have proximity with God.

 ਬਾਬਾ ਪੈਧਾ ਸਚਿ ਖੰਡਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਪਾਈ ।
 baabaa paidhaa sachi khandi nau nidhi naamu gareebee paaee|
 Baba reached the region of truth wherefrom he received Nam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.

 ਬਾਬਾ ਦੇਖੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਿ ਜਲਤੀ ਸਭਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ ਦਿਸਿ ਆਈ ।
 baabaa daykhai dhiaanu dhari jalatee sabhi pridavee disi aaee|
 In his meditation, Baba found the whole earth burning (with the fire of lust and anger).

 ਬਾਝੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਹੈ ਹੈ ਕਰਦੀ ਸੁਣੀ ਲੁਕਾਈ ।
 baajhu guroo gubaaru hai hai hai karadee sunee|ukaaee|
 Without Guru there is utter darkness and he heard the cries of the common men.

 ਬਾਬੇ ਭੇਖ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਕੀ ਰੀਤਿ ਚਲਾਈ ।
 baabay bhaykh banaaiaa udaasee kee reeti chalaaee|
 To further understand the people, Guru Nanak donned robes in their manner and preached them to be detached (from the pleasure and pain).

 ਚੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਸੋਧਣਿ ਧਰਤਿ ਲੁਕਾਈ ॥੨੪॥
 charhhiaa sodhani dharati|ukaaee ॥24॥
 Thus he went out to depurate humanity on earth.

Bhai Gurdas - Vaar 1 - Pauree 24

Thanks for the questions this afternoon. I learned a lot.​


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

good luck

even i am hungry...better fix some lunch


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "Balbir ji, Let's Pray For Truth!"
Those who wish that God hear their prayers, they should better not participate on this forum with different names, styles and chamchaa-giree. Those announce their true name, place and description of their profile. Also, they keep one identity. The true Guru recognizes such persons too.

Bhai Gurdas Jee recognizes others as Gurmukh Bhaysiaa.
ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਨਵਲ ਨਵੇਲ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭੇਸਿਆ । 
nit nit naval navayl guramukhi bhaysiaa|

Quote "Why do you use derogatory terms like Those, who have no experience on matter they talk, start singing soon borrowed songs?"
This is truthful reaction to relax. One can ask a professor of psychology. I had a seminar with learned people lately on this topic.

Quote "Why not engage in debate instead of rebuke?"
Please say something about the key from Bhai Gurdas Jee and their promoters.

**************

Quote from Amarsanghera Jee "if someone gets the key...assuming if it exists... what can he/she do with it."
The spiritual hungry person needs spiritual food, the True Naam Simran. He does not need a key or its duplicate.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

what is "false" naam simran?


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*false naam simran is pakhand- mann hor mukh hor....*


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

*another definition of false naam Simran:     he he*


*muh me raam raam bagal me chchooree*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Quote "what is "false" naam simran?"
False Simran is japping any word with a technique also received through the way the true Gurus have never suggested.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ] (47-7)
sireeraag mehlaa 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
mnu qnu Dnu ijin pRiB dIAw riKAw shij svwir ] (47-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
man tan Dhan jin parabh dee-aa rakhi-aa sahj savaar.
This mind, body and wealth were given by God, who naturally adorns us.
srb klw kir QwipAw AMqir joiq Apwr ] (47-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
sarab kalaa kar thaapi-aa antar jot apaar.
He has blessed us with all our energy, and infused His Infinite Light deep within us.
sdw sdw pRBu ismrIAY AMqir rKu aur Dwir ]1] (47-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
sadaa sadaa parabh simree-ai antar rakh ur Dhaar. ||1||
Forever and ever, meditate in remembrance on God; keep Him enshrined in your heart. ||1||
myry mn hir ibnu Avru n koie ] (47-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
mayray man har bin avar na ko-ay.
O my mind, without the Lord, there is no other at all.
pRB srxweI sdw rhu dUKu n ivAwpY koie ]1] rhwau ] (47-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
parabh sarnaa-ee sadaa rahu dookh na vi-aapai ko-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Remain in God's Sanctuary forever, and no suffering shall afflict you. ||1||Pause||
rqn pdwrQ mwxkw suienw rupw Kwku ] (47-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
ratan padaarath maankaa su-inaa rupaa khaak.
Jewels, treasures, pearls, gold and silver-all these are just dust.
mwq ipqw suq bMDpw kUVy sBy swk ] (47-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
maat pitaa sut banDhpaa koorhay sabhay saak.
Mother, father, children and relatives-all relations are false.
ijin kIqw iqsih n jwxeI mnmuK psu nwpwk ]2] (47-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
jin keetaa tiseh na jaan-ee manmukh pas naapaak. ||2||
The self-willed manmukh is an insulting beast; he does not acknowledge the One who created him. ||2||
AMqir bwhir riv rihAw iqs no jwxY dUir ] (47-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
antar baahar rav rahi-aa tis no jaanai door.
The Lord is pervading within and beyond, and yet people think that He is far away.
iqRsnw lwgI ric rihAw AMqir haumY kUir ] (47-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
tarisnaa laagee rach rahi-aa antar ha-umai koor.
They are engrossed in clinging desires; within their hearts there is ego and falsehood.
BgqI nwm ivhUixAw Awvih vM\ih pUr ]3] (47-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
bhagtee naam vihooni-aa aavahi vanjahi poor. ||3||
Without devotion to the Naam, crowds of people come and go. ||3||
rwiK lyhu pRBu krxhwr jIA jMq kir dieAw ] (47-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
raakh layho parabh karanhaar jee-a jant kar da-i-aa.
Please preserve Your beings and creatures, God; O Creator Lord, please be merciful!
ibnu pRB koie n rKnhwru mhw ibkt jm BieAw ] (47-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
bin parabh ko-ay na rakhanhaar mahaa bikat jam bha-i-aa.
Without God, there is no saving grace. The Messenger of Death is cruel and unfeeling.
nwnk nwmu n vIsrau kir ApunI hir mieAw ]4]14]84] (47-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
naanak naam na veesra-o kar apunee har ma-i-aa. ||4||14||84||
O Nanak, may I never forget the Naam! Please bless me with Your Mercy, Lord! ||4||14||84||


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## simpy (Jan 5, 2008)

qyry bcn AnUp Apwr sMqn AwDwr bwxI bIcwrIAY jIau ] (80-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
tayray bachan anoop apaar santan aaDhaar banee beechaaree-ai jee-o.
Your Word is Incomparable and Infinite. I contemplate the Word of Your Bani, the Support of the Saints.
ismrq sws igrws pUrn ibsuAws ikau mnhu ibswrIAY jIau ] (80-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
simrat saas giraas pooran bisu-aas ki-o manhu bisaaree-ai jee-o.
I remember Him in meditation with every breath and morsel of food, with perfect faith. How could I forget Him from my mind?
ikau mnhu byswrIAY inmK nhI twrIAY guxvMq pRwn hmwry ] (80-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
ki-o manhu baysaaree-ai nimakh nahee taaree-ai gunvant paraan hamaaray.
How could I forget Him from my mind, even for an instant? He is the Most Worthy; He is my very life!
mn bWCq Pl dyq hY suAwmI jIA kI ibrQw swry ] (80-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
man baaNchhat fal dayt hai su-aamee jee-a kee birthaa saaray.
My Lord and Master is the Giver of the fruits of the mind's desires. He knows all the useless vanities and pains of the soul.
AnwQ ky nwQy sRb kY swQy jip jUAY jnmu n hwrIAY ] (80-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
anaath kay naathay sarab kai saathay jap joo-ai janam na haaree-ai.
Meditating on the Patron of lost souls, the Companion of all, your life shall not be lost in the gamble.
nwnk kI bynµqI pRB pih ik®pw kir Bvjlu qwrIAY ]2] (80-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
naanak kee baynantee parabh peh kirpaa kar bhavjal taaree-ai. ||2||
Nanak offers this prayer to God: Please shower me with Your Mercy, and carry me across the terrifying world-ocean. ||2||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 6, 2008)

<<Quote "what is "false" naam simran?"
False Simran is japping any word with a technique also received through the way the true Gurus have never suggested.>>>


like???

and what are the "techniques" "recommended" by Guru ji ?

i have emphasised the words for the stress.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 6, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Quote from Randip Jee "From what I have read Bhai Gurdas's Varan are often metaphorical. If one can understand these metaphors one can understand Bani."
> 
> Please listen. Guru Arjan Dev. Jee is singing.
> 
> ...



Yes metaphors were commonly used by Saints and our Guru's, much like Sufi's. An example is:
*
Tie two Bird's together, even though they have four wing's they cannot fly

*This is not from Bani btw.

Here is a metaphor from Bani:

Page 419

ਕਲਰਿ  ਖੇਤੀ  ਬੀਜੀਐ  ਕਿਉ  ਲਾਹਾ  ਪਾਵੈ  ॥ 
कलरि खेती बीजीऐ किउ लाहा पावै ॥ 
Kalar kẖėṯī bījī­ai ki­o lāhā pāvai. 
Planting the seeds in the rocky soil, how can one reap a profit? 

and another mataphor

ਚਲੇ  ਚਲਣਹਾਰ  ਵਾਟ  ਵਟਾਇਆ  ॥ 
चले चलणहार वाट वटाइआ ॥ 
Cẖalė cẖalaṇhār vāt vatā­i­ā. 
The travellers travel from one road to another. 

and another:

ਪਥਰ  ਕੀ  ਬੇੜੀ  ਜੇ  ਚੜੈ  ਭਰ  ਨਾਲਿ  ਬੁਡਾਵੈ  ॥੪॥ 
पथर की बेड़ी जे चड़ै भर नालि बुडावै ॥४॥ 
Pathar kī bėṛī jė cẖaṛai bẖar nāl budāvai. ||4|| 
If someone embarks on a boat of stone, he shall drown with its cargo. ||4||


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from Surinder (Post #91) Jee "*another definition of false naam Simran: he he . . .muh me raam raam bagal me chchooree*."
Some are suddenly full of hate or anger. Consequently, their words get a blend of sharpness. One may doubt his tongue if it is a knife in the mouth. Often such persons have a bag carrying printed verses of their scripture. These words explain them. *Muh me cchuree bagal me raam.*

The so-called Amritdhaaree has the word 'Waheguru' in his mouth and the sword hanging under his armpit. 

Dear Amar Jee, Have you understood the false Simran way according to Surinder Jee, it is he he ...?

**************

Quote (Post #95) "like???"
Everything that these Baabaas are doing on, behind or under the stage the Gurus have not mentioned once.

Quote "and what are the "techniques" "recommended" by Guru ji ?"
Receive the Gur as Prasaad meeting the Sadhu, Saint and the true Guru. One comes to know true Naam Simran.

**************

Dear Randip Jee, thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev. These are realities of practical life. These are not metaphors as I have understood it.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Jan 6, 2008)

> Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote that he wrote as asked 'ooraa' 'Oankaar'. My curiosity is to know who asked him to write so. This was not Gurdev, in my view. Gurdev always wrote         <> but never (1 Oankaar)         1 EAMkwr.




Dear Balbir Singh ji

Satsriakal!

After reading your posts lot of curiousities arised in me 
the first one is as rightly atated by you in above quote the pronuniciation of         <>  cant be justifies as popularly know it from various preachers 

But then how should it be read or pronounced in your understanding .

kindly share it 

Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 6, 2008)

i have not understood what is false


unless you know the truth, you donot know what is false

simple logic..innit?


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## Randip Singh (Jan 6, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> **************
> 
> Dear Randip Jee, thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev. These are realities of practical life. These are not metaphors as I have understood it.
> 
> ...



I think I need to clarify what a metaphor is:



*What is a metaphor?*


*Definition*     Here are two senses of _metaphor:_
A metaphor is the expression of an understanding of one concept in terms of another concept, where there is some similarity or correlation between the two.
A metaphor is the understanding itself of one concept in terms of another.
*Examples (English)*       The following sentences illustrate how the metaphorical understanding of *anger-as-fire* is expressed:
Your insincere apology just _added fuel to the fire._
After the argument, Dave was _smoldering _for days.
That _kindled _my ire.
 Boy, am I _burned up_!
*Source:* Lakoff, G. 1987 388

by what has been defined above the following lines are clearly metaphors:

here is a similar metaphor with fire from Bani

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਲਰਿPage 15, Line 10
ਪਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਮਲੁ ਮੁਖ ਸੁਧੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਚੰਡਾਲੁ ॥
पर निंदा पर मलु मुख सुधी अगनि क्रोधु चंडालु ॥
Par ninḏā par mal mukẖ suḏẖī agan kroḏẖ cẖandāl.
Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.
Guru Nanak Dev   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Fire expressed as desire:

[/SIZE]Page 19, Line 10
ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਲਾਗੇ ਪਚਿ ਮੁਏ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਗਿ ॥
दुबिधा लागे पचि मुए अंतरि त्रिसना अगि ॥
Ḏubiḏẖā lāgė pacẖ mu­ė anṯar ṯarisnā ag.
Attached to duality, they putrefy and die; they are filled with the *fire* of desire within.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

metaphor of fire as egotism:

[/SIZE]Page 20, Line 12
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि नामु सलाहीऐ हउमै निवरी भाहि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ nām salāhī­ai ha­umai nivrī bẖāhi. ||1|| rahā­o.
The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the *fire* of egotism is extinguished. ||1||Pause||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

etc etc

I can give hundreds of examples. Understand metaphors. Understand Bani.
[/SIZE]
See what i mean by metaphor.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

So many questions are open despite so many factories producing Baabaaas to explain.

Please come to know true Naam and its Simran Knowing that no answers remain open.

Balbir Singh may answer your questions when God wants to transfer it through him.

The topic is the key of Bhai Gurdas Jee. Let us touch it again.

*Can someone please refer one Vaak from the true Gurus that they could not understand but Bhai Gurdas Jee made it clear in his poetry?* I will be thankful.
Please do not hesitate to contact your so-called scholars if someone feels they may help me finding the answer.

Dear Jatinder Jee, Gurdev wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee to read and to pronounce as it is. Its Understanding is the result of true Naam Simran.

Dear Amarsanghera Jee, realizing truth one comes to know what Truth is. Realizing false things one feels it may not be true.
By discussing one do not realize God's truth. After realizing God one sings HIS praise.

Dear Randip Jee, these are my few words. True Gurus use examples for those who know facts at their consciousness. A farmer's mind understands it well that throwing seeds on stones no crop is possible. A boatman's mind knows that a boat of stone drowns. It does not take people across.
Gurdev smilingly sings Hari Praise with Sikhs who have learned the Gur of Jap. For others Japu is a metaphor.
Please come to know true Naam Simran and find out truth of metaphors.

Listening One Naam one receives the wisdom of all called God.

It remains magic till the magician explains its trick. Knowing the trick one knows it as fact. 


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 6, 2008)

<<It remains magic till the magician explains its trick.>>

who is the magician?


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*jad akal de sab khirkeeaan darvaaje band hon ta Sikh di Kirpan bagal me chchooree hi nazar aundee hai..............  no surprises  Balbir veer. *


*Dhan Dhan Siriu Guru Maharaj Sache Paatshah da hukam hai:*

  gurU ijnw kw AMDulw isK BI AMDy krm kryin ] (951-7, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
guroo jinaa kaa anDhulaa sikh bhee anDhay karam karayn.
The disciples whose teacher is blind, act blindly as well.
Eie BwxY clin AwpxY inq JUTo JUTu bolyin ] (951-8, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
o-ay bhaanai chalan aapnai nit jhootho jhooth bolayn.
They walk according to their own wills, and continually speak falsehood and lies.
kUVu kusqu kmwvdy pr inMdw sdw kryin ] (951-8, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
koorh kusat kamaavday par nindaa sadaa karayn.
They practice falsehood and deception, and endlessly slander others.
Eie Awip fuby pr inMdkw sgly kul fobyin ] (951-9, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
o-ay aap dubay par nindkaa saglay kul dobayn.
Slandering others, they drown themselves, and drown all their generations as well.
nwnk ijqu Eie lwey iqqu lgy auie bpuVy ikAw kryin ]2] (951-9, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
naanak jit o-ay laa-ay tit lagay u-ay bapurhay ki-aa karayn. ||2||
O Nanak, whatever the Lord links them to, to that they are linked; what can the poor creatures do? ||2||


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Quote "who is the magician?"
All is HIS Leelaa, Magic, Game.

**************

Quote from Surinder Jee "jad akal de sab khirkeeaan darvaaje band hon ta Sikh di Kirpan bagal me chchooree hi nazar aundee hai.............. no surprises Balbir veer. 

The saying 'muh me Raam, Bagal me cchuree' is the popular saying since ages in Indian languages. 

Amritdhaaree Sikhs did not want people to trace them with this expression. Their leaders smartly replaced the Reverend Guru's word 'Raam' with double weighted word 'Waheguru' following recommendation of Bhai Gurdas Jee. They also replaced the word knife with a bigger weapon sword.

**************

Surinder Jee, A true Sikh does not lie nor he or she changes statements of others.

All Gems appear before the person speaking while living Truth.

P.S. I may be leaving for holy days in few weeks. I wish all great Satsangs with Truth everywhere.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Surinder Jee,
Gurdev is speaking truth with you. Why you ignore His words and start looking at somebody else. There is nobody else when Gurdev talks to One exclusively.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Dear Aad Ji,*

*here is another beautiful one:*

*As a piece of paper when waxed, stands the test of time,*
*As a trimmed lamp will shed its light for longer hours,*
*As a person flying a kite in a wind swept sky controls it by a string,*
*And an appropriate antidote can cure a snake bite,*
*As a king traveling incognito best observes the state of his subjects,*
*It is by such relative supports that the Guru guards his Sikhs. (35.23)(Bhai Gurdas Ji)*


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## simpy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Advent of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sache Paatshah *

*Pauri 23.1 Suni pukari datar prabhu Guru Nanak jag mahi pathaia. *
*Pauri 23.4 Chare pair dharam de chari varan iku varanu karaia. *
*Pauri 23.8 Kali taran Guru Nanak Aaia. *






*The benevolent Lord listened to the woes of Humanity and Guru Nanak appeared in this world. Nanak preached about the One Lord of all, rich and poor and converted all into one clan of humanity. Nanak came to redeem the dark age of Kaliyug. *


*Pauri 24.1 Pahila babey paya bakhasu dari pichho dey phiri ghalikamai... *
*Pauri 24.4 Baba paidha sach khand nau nidhi namu garibi pai. *
*Pauri 24.5 Baba dekhai dhian dhari jalati sabhi prithavi disi ai. *



*Baba Nanak first obtained Grace and then **underwent rigourous discipline. He reached the Realm of Truth and received the Naam of nine treasures and humility. Baba contemplated and saw the whole earth burning (with fire of lust and anger).*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Only Ignorant claims that others got Truth. Living in duality the lost Jeev is engaged in anylyzing others Truth.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 6, 2008)

Surinder ji -- for you, and those who would listen. 

 ਨਦੀਆ ਨਾਲੇ ਵਾਹੜੇ ਗੰਗਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਗੰਗੋਦਕ ਹੋਈ ।
 nadeeaa naalay vaaharhay gangi sangi gangodak hoee|
 Rivers and small streams joining Ganges become the sacred river (Ganges).

 ਅਸਟ ਧਾਤੁ ਇਕ ਧਾਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਪਾਰਸ ਪਰਸੈ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਸੋਈ ।
 asat dhaatu ik dhaatu hoi paaras parasai kanchanu soee|
 With the touch of the philosopher's stone (paras) all the mixed light metals are transformed into gold.

 ਚੰਦਨ ਵਾਸੁ ਵਣਾਸਪਤਿ ਅਫਲ ਸਫਲ ਕਰ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਗੋਈ ।
 chandan vaasu vanaasapati adhal sadhal kar chandanu goee|
 The vegetation whether fruit producing or fruitless becomes sandal by assimilating into it the fragrance of sandal.

 ਛਿਅ ਰੁਤਿ ਬਾਰਹ ਮਾਹ ਕਰਿ ਸੁਝੈ ਸੁਝ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ।
 chhia ruti baarah maah kari sujhai sujh n doojaa koee|
 In the six seasons and twelve months nothing except sun is there.

 ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਛਿਅ ਦਰਸਨਾ ਬਾਰਹ ਵਾਟ ਭਵੈ ਸਭੁ ਲੋਈ ।
 chaari varani chhia darasanaa baarah vaat bhavai sabhu|oee|
 Four varnas, six Schools of philosophy and twelve sects of the yogis are there in this world.

* ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਖੋਈ ।
 guramukhi darasanu saadhasangu guramukhi maaragi dubidhaa khoee|
 But by treading the path of Gurmukhs all the dubieties of the above sects vanish.

 ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਅਰਾਧਨਿ ਓਈ ॥੯॥
 ik mani iku araadhani aoee ॥9॥
 They (Gurmukhs) now with stable mind adore the One (Lord).*​


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## spnadmin (Jan 6, 2008)

Randip ji

I have read what you are writing about metaphor and will respond. Keep up the flow -- it is educating the parts of the brain that are emotionally neglected.


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## International Akaali (Jan 6, 2008)

Balbir Singh your claims have no merit. 

You ask that where did guru sahib even mention bhai gurdaas jee in guru granth sahib ji. 

Let me ask you this question. 

Where did guru granth sahib mention guru gobind singh, guru hargobind singh, guru har rai ji, guru har krishan ji? Where did guru sahib mention bhai nand lal ji? Where did guru sahib mention 4 sahibzadey? 

It is a known fact that guru sahib gave such a status to bhai gurdaas jee. There is something called faith which you do not have. Next you will say show me proof that guru granth sahib ji is the writings of guru sahibs. Faith is something you do not have. There is something called blind faith to an extent where one does not know the reasoning as to why they are doing the task at hand and the other. The Real Faith has reasoning behind it. One following the gurus words which is real faith. To you it may be blind because you are but gursikhs all around the world do not see this as blind as guru sahib says naam is the answer to all the questions because gursikhs have faith that there is one creator AKAL. And there is fact as per gurbani. Gurbani is way past science

Bhai gurdas jee does not have the title of guru beside him. It is a guide for us to get closer to guru. If you think you are much more learned then bhai gurdaas jee then that is good for you. Me as a sikh of the guru will never come into that state of humai. I can come to a state of reasoning which you can't because you are on a mission of running your cult. 

randip singh dont try to explain to balbir what a metaphor is. In a previous thread he contrdicted himself by claiming one of the words in a particular shabads is a metaphor and then stating that the shabad is not a means of metaphor as per the understanding of diffrent sikhs. 

Dont bother to argue with him he is running a cult and on a mission. I urge people to not let this person speak as he is confusing sikhs all around the world.


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## Astroboy (Jan 6, 2008)

Akali Ji and All,

Thank you for the warning as follows:-

randip singh dont try to explain to balbir what a metaphor is. In a previous thread he contrdicted himself by claiming one of the words in a particular shabads is a metaphor and then stating that the shabad is not a means of metaphor as per the understanding of diffrent sikhs. 

Dont bother to argue with him he is running a cult and on a mission. I urge people to not let this person speak as he is confusing sikhs all around the world.


I think we all need to adhere to SPN rules while ironing out differences of opinion.

Santokh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 6, 2008)

<<Listening One Naam one receives the wisdom of all called God.

It remains magic till the magician explains its trick. Knowing the trick one knows it as fact. >>

<<Dear Amarsanghera Jee, realizing truth one comes to know what Truth is. Realizing false things one feels it may not be true.
By discussing one do not realize God's truth. After realizing God one sings HIS praise.>>>

please clarify again-

if someone is unable to know the truth, how does he know that what he knows is false.
you are mixing two things, God's existence is a truth and known, it has nothing to do with my question which is about your earlier assetion of true or false method of naam simran.

If you have made an assertion that there are "multiple" ways of naam simran and only one is "true"

please explain that how will someone know which one is true


second

you gave a "metaphor" of magician to God... quite funny 

you just learnt what is a metaphor


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*hey all of you,*

*veer Balbir confessed that he is IGNORANT:*



			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Only Ignorant claims that others got Truth. Living in duality the lost Jeev is engaged in anylyzing others Truth.


 
*so why even bother...............*

*thanks veer Balbir...........*
*and much more thanks for proving the truth about YOURSELF(Rajneesh and your socalled Gurdev) for it before providing the statement.............*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and International Akaali Jee!

Quote "It is a known fact that guru sahib gave such a status to bhai gurdaas jee."
Please tell the name of Guru Sahib providing the reference to that status. At least someone can provide the name of the book and the author who wrote this first.

Quote "There is something called faith which you do not have."
This may be right. 
Truth is to experience. The true Guru leads one to Truth.
Preachers push one into the well of faith.

Quote "Next you will say show me proof that guru granth sahib ji is the writings of guru sahibs."
Future Teller Jee, one does not need a proof for this. One who has experienced the Sun understands the songs about the Sun.

Quote "Faith is something you do not have."
Thanks! God! .

Quote "There is something called blind faith to an extent where one does not know the reasoning as to why they are doing the task at hand and the other."
It is God's Will whom he makes blind, in faith or in eyes.

Quote "The Real Faith has reasoning behind it."
This may be your experience.
God and His Truth are no reasoning.

Quote "To you it may be blind because you are but gursikhs all around the world do not see this as blind as guru sahib says naam is the answer to all the questions because gursikhs have faith that there is one creator AKAL. And there is fact as per gurbani. Gurbani is way past science"
First get clear what is to say.

Quote "Me as a sikh of the guru will never come into that state of humai."
Why waste life with this ego (haumai)?

Quote "I can come to a state of reasoning which you can't because you are on a mission of running your cult."
God knows why one feels he is better. Better worry where to get true Naam than cults. All, who worry about their business, are engaged studying cults in the market.
All activities are HIS alone.

Quote "I urge people to not let this person speak as he is confusing sikhs all around the world."
Please let your Baabaas explain Sikhs all around the world. Why have they kept them in confusion?

**************

Quote from Amarsanghera Jee "please explain that how will someone know which one is true."
Come to know Truth. The falsehood vanishes, also its counselors.

**************

Surinder Jee, please provide the page number of the book and the name of the writer when referring those in the original language also. I cannot imagine that Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote in English.
Also, please do not mix Bhai Gurdas Jee's statements with those from the reverend Gurus.
Mixing statements from Bhai Gurdas Jee has already done many mischief with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

In my view, Bhai Gurdas Jee is a prevaricator when he wrote this.
ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਇਕਾਂਗ ਲਿਖਿ ਊੜਾ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਾਇਆ ।
"aykankaaru ikaang|ikhi oorhaa oankaaru|ikhaaiaa|" Vaar 39-1-2

The true Gurus never wrote 'Ik Onkaar' or anything from the above line.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

_


			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		


Only Ignorant claims that others got Truth. Living in duality the lost Jeev is engaged in anylyzing others Truth.

Click to expand...

_
_


			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		


			Come to know Truth. The falsehood vanishes, also its counselors.
		
Click to expand...

_
_


			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		


			Surinder Jee..........
		
Click to expand...

_


			
				Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> _I cannot imagine that Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote in English.
> Also, please do not mix Bhai Gurdas Jee's statements with those from the reverend Gurus.
> Mixing statements from Bhai Gurdas Jee has already done many mischief with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
> 
> ...


_
_



_*Mere Veer Balbir Ji, you have already confessed that you are IGNORANT/LOST/LIVING IN DUALITY.................... even provided a proof:RAJNEESH and SOCALLED GURDEV OF YOURS.  once again thanks for all the clarifications. Now your statements with 'KNOW', 'I',  'PLEASE' etc  doesn't make any sense anymore to me neech.........*_

_*me neech can only pray for you, nothing else.....................*_

_*Waheguru Rakha*_


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2008)

Nam Jap,

Thanks for putting IA's comments back. It is tough language. Making a claim. Gracioius of you to do that.


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2008)

Now would someone fill me in on the Rajneesh story? When did all this start? How did it end? Who is Rajnessh?


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*Dear Aad Ji,*

*read the thread on Rajneesh-'was Rajneesh.......'*

*he used to be a lot in news for all the nuisenace he created. and our dear Veer Balbir Ji was supporting him in that thread.*

*a lot can be read about him and his pakhands on the internet(search for OSHO or RAJNEESH)*

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## Randip Singh (Jan 7, 2008)

Balbir Singh said:


> Dear Randip Jee, these are my few words. True Gurus use examples for those who know facts at their consciousness. A farmer's mind understands it well that throwing seeds on stones no crop is possible. A boatman's mind knows that a boat of stone drowns. It does not take people across.
> Gurdev smilingly sings Hari Praise with Sikhs who have learned the Gur of Jap. For others Japu is a metaphor.
> Please come to know true Naam Simran and find out truth of metaphors.
> 
> ...



So these ARE metaphors! I am glad we agree.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Dud Jee!

Snatching hair or tearing cloths do not help knowing God.

Please come to know true Naam Simran. One does not need a Baabaa anymore.

Once again for the forgettable, the topic here is the key of Bhai Gurdas Jee. Please do not change it.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*Veer Balbir Ji thankyou for clarifying even further more that you dont understand either English or Punjabi/Gurmukhi. Thanks again*


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

* Bhai Gurdas Ji on Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Sache paatshah *

_*Rehnde Gur dariayo vich, meen kuleen het nirbani |*_
_*Darsan dekh patang jio(n) joti andar jot samani |*_
_*Sabad surat(i) liv mirg jio, bhirh payee chit avar na jani |*_
_*Gur Arjan vith(u) kurbani | (Bhai Gurdas, Var 24)*_

_*To achieve martyrdom, Guru Arjan Dev ji immersed in the God-like ocean like a fish. The Guru merged into the heavenly light like the moth that immolates itself after seeing the light. *_
_*.. I sacrifice my life to Guru Arjan.* _


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## Astroboy (Jan 7, 2008)

Here's something I found which might interest some of you.

Debate Rules and Suggestions 
Advice on Debating with Others 

Avoid the use of Never. 
Avoid the use of Always. 
Refrain from saying you are wrong.
You can say your idea is mistaken.
Don't disagree with obvious truths.
Attack the idea not the person.
Use many rather than most. 
Avoid exaggeration. 
Use some rather than many. 
The use of often allows for exceptions.
The use of generally allows for exceptions.

Quote sources and numbers.
If it is just an opinion, admit it.
Do not present opinion as facts.
Smile when disagreeing.
Stress the positive. 
You do not need to win every battle to win the war.
Concede minor or trivial points.
Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling. 
Watch your tone of voice.
Don't win a debate and lose a friend.
Keep your perspective - You're just debating. 
You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well. 
With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly.


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*how about Punjabi veerji, we can find realy nice substitutes................he he *

*want to try*


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## Astroboy (Jan 7, 2008)

*You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well. 
With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly.*

In Gurmukhi, Punjabi, English and all languages.
Thank you Surinder Ji, for pointing out.


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*Ranj Ki Jab Guftgu Hone lagee*
*aap se tum tum se tu hone lagee*


*how can we avoid that veer ji in punjabi where it ends up with Oye..........*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Thanks for coming back to the topic and referring a part of Bhai Gurdas Jee's poem.

As assumed many are helpless and have to depend totally on translations available. They are poor who have no experience of true Naam Simran and plead for their Baabaas as guides.

This is my understanding of the referred lines from Bhai Gurdas Jee Vaar 24-23-1.

ਰਹਿਦੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੀਨ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਹੇਤੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ । 
rahiday guru dareeaau vichi meen kuleen haytu nirabaanee|
Gurus live in rivers. Fish good kinship the cause without speech.

I do not know how your experts can interpret, translate and understand this line.

This is the second line.

ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਪਤੰਗ ਜਿਉ ਜੋਤੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ । 
darasanu daykhi patang jiu jotee andari joti samaanee|
Seeing appearance like a lepidopteran, the flame merges into flame.

Just by watching neither a patanga nor a flame merges into flame, in my observation.

This is the third line.

ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਲਿਵ ਮਿਰਗ ਜਿਉ ਭੀੜ ਪਈ ਚਿਤਿ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਆਣੀ । 
sabadu surati|iv mirag jiu bheerh paee chiti avaru n aanee|
Through Sabad consciousness incorporated like a deer, crowd gathers, in mind other does not enter.

Perhaps Bhai Jee recognized that Deer's Sabad consciousness does not get disturbed by the crowd gathered around. Is he suggesting Sikhs to follow like a deer or he is comparing here a fish, a patanga or a deer with Guru Arjan Dev Jee according to Surinder Jee's words "Bhai Gurdas Ji on Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Sache paatshah."

This is the fourth line.

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਵਰ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਖ ਸੰਪਟ ਵਿਚਿ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ । 
charan kaval mili bhavar jiu sukh sanpat vichi raini vihaanee|
Like the black bee meeting the lotus feet, in a comfort box spends night.

Perhaps Bhai Jee watched a black bee whole that night instead doing Naam Simran or perhaps it was Guru Arjan Dev Jee according to Surinder Jee.

**************

May I ask which Vaak from Gurdev becomes clearly to understand by reading these lines from Bhai Gurdas Jee?


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

gurU ijnw kw AMDulw cyly nwhI Twau ] (58-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
guroo jinaa kaa anDhulaa chaylay naahee thaa-o.
Those chaylaas, those devotees, whose spiritual teacher is blind, shall not find their place of rest.


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 7, 2008)

Is this your translation in Angrezee or a borrowed one? Since when 'Thaao' means the place of rest?


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## simpy (Jan 7, 2008)

*Guru Nanak Dev Ji at Mecca. (Bhai Gurdas Ji)*
*The Kazis and the Mullahs assembled to question Nanak on the subject of religion and God,
Who has extended His Creation and no one can fathom the secrets of Nature.
The muslim priests opened a book and asked him “ Who is superior – Hindu or Mussulman ?”
Baba Nanak answered “ Oh Hajis, without performance of good deeds, both Hindu and Muslims will lament
Both will be denied shelter in God’s court on the basis of their respective religions alone.
The colour of the flower called Kasumbh is washed away by water (so labels are fragile).
The followers of both religions are quarrelling, but both of them are equal in the eyes of God.”
The world has gone astray as it pursues the path of sin.*


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2008)

Balbir ji

Pray tell, where did you find your translation for Vaar 24, Pauree 23?

Here is another idea.

*              Vaar 24 Pauri 23 Mingling of the light of Guru Arjan Dev with the eternal light*

 ਰਹਿਦੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੀਨ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਹੇਤੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ । 
rahiday guru dareeaau vichi meen kuleen haytu nirabaanee|
Liberating the soul from the body, Guru (Arjan Dev) stabilized himself in the water of river as the fish remains in water.

ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਪਤੰਗ ਜਿਉ ਜੋਤੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ । 
darasanu daykhi patang jiu jotee andari joti samaanee|
As the moth throws itself into the flame, his light mingled with light of the Lord.

ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਲਿਵ ਮਿਰਗ ਜਿਉ ਭੀੜ ਪਈ ਚਿਤਿ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਆਣੀ । 
sabadu surati|iv mirag jiu bheerh paee chiti avaru n aanee|
Caring of for life, as the deer keeps its consciousness concentrated when in peril, the Guru also, when undergoing suffering kept none else except the Lord in its  consciousness.

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਵਰ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਖ ਸੰਪਟ ਵਿਚਿ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ । 
charan kaval mili bhavar jiu sukh sanpat vichi raini vihaanee|
As the black bee remains enrapt in the petals of flower • enjoy fragrance, the Guru also spent night of suffering by keeping joyfully s concentration on the feet of Lord.

ਗੁਰੁ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਬਾਬੀਹੇ ਜਿਉ ਆਖ ਵਖਾਣੀ । 
guru upadaysu n visarai baabeehay jiu aakh vakhaanee|
The Guru like a rainbird spoke to his disciples that the teachings of the Guru should not be forgotten.

  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲੁ ਪਿਰਮ ਰਸੁ ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਣੀ । 
guramukhi sukh dhalu piram rasu sahaj samaadhi saadh sangi jaanee|
The pleasure it of the Gurmukh (Guru Arjan Dev) is the delight of love and he accepts the holy congregation as the natural state of meditation.

  ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੩॥ 
gur arajan vitahu kurabaanee ॥23॥
I am sacrifice unto Guru Arjan Dev

 You are sorely out of alignment Balbir ji with the meaning of this pauree. This is a reflection on the grotesque martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev. The Guru did not live in the water, he died there. And the pauree is teling us than when he died he was stabliized -- HIS SOUL FOUND ITS LASTING PEACE. (Just as fish finds equilibrium in water, he found stability in the One.) 

We know this is a reference to death because in the next line the moth flies into the flame (to its death), and then is merged with the flame, as the jyote of Guru Arjan Dev was with the jyote of the One. This is a very serious topic being discussed in the first two lines. I won't go on much longer about this unless I am forced to.  This pauree brings me to tears.

*Guru also, when undergoing suffering kept none else except the Lord in its  consciousness. *And then he was taken for a bath in the river and he died. Think about it.​


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "You are sorely out of alignment Balbir ji with the meaning of this pauree."
Your view and the Baabaa sitting beside maybe right.
I am blissful being sore when Lord wills to taste so. Please do not envy.

Quote "This is a reflection on the grotesque martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev."
Please explain. How did the translators come to this conclusion?
I have a small suggestion. Please have a conference with all your elite Baabaas before they answer.

**************

A poet who compares his Guru with a fish, a moth, a deer, a black bee and a rain bird do not know his Guru truly.
My enlightened Guru is free from all these Joonies and births all ready before He sacrifices His human body.

Perhaps Bhai Gurdas Jee has not heard his Guru singing.

Guru Arjan Dev is singing. Please listen.

keI jnm Bey kIt pqMgw ]
keé jnm BE kIt pqNgw ]
kaee janam bhae keet patangaa.

keI jnm gj mIn kurMgw ]
keé jnm gj mIn kurNgw ]
kaee janam gaj meen kurangaa. SGGS Ang 176-11

May I ask why Gurdev was blissful offering His Human Deh? Why did He not talk about getting freed in the births of a fish, a moth, deer  . . . ?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2008)

Balbir ji



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!
> 
> Quote "You are sorely out of alignment Balbir ji with the meaning of this pauree."
> ...


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 8, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

You wrote "This is a reflection on the grotesque martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev."
The translation provided from the last line of this Vaar is "I am sacrifice unto Guru Arjan Dev."
Please clear it. Bhai Gurdas Jee has mentioned whose sacrifice (kurbaanee) here. Is it of Guru Arjan Dev Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee, the translator or it the suggestion for every reader?

This is  the provided translation of the line above the last one. "The pleasure it of the Gurmukh (Guru Arjan Dev) is the delight of love and he accepts the holy congregation as the natural state of meditation."
I do not understand why Gurmukh means Guru Arjan Dev here. Also, which words the interpreter can translate 'he accepts'.

Another line above this is translated "The Guru like a rainbird spoke to his disciples that the teachings of the Guru should not be forgotten."
Does Guru speaks like a rain bird with his disciples? I hope Sikhs have heard their Guru. They may confirm it.

The line above is also not translated right as no words from this line explain 'the Guru also spent night of suffering'.

**************

I feel preachers are wondering the so-called key from Bhai Gurdas Jee. They are not sure if this is the key and how to use it. They are not even able to translate its lines correctly and understand it.

**************

The true Gurus message and suggestion are simple and clear. 


Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*another Beautiful rachna from Bhai Gurdas Ji:*

_ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ । 
*No one has seen or known this creator, and rather people have remained indulged in the expansive delusions of prakriti (nature).
Line 5 
*ਸੋਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਛਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ । 
*Not realising that soham parbrahm, the jiv is mistaken in understanding Him as a man (full of fallacies).
Line 6 

[bhai Gurdas ji]*_


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 8, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

This is the difference. 

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ ।
Bhai Gurdas says 'No one has seen or known this creator'.

Guru Amardaas Jee is singing Truth.
Aidstu Agocru AlKu inrMjnu so dyiKAw gurmuiK AwKI ]
Aidstu Agoc{ AlKu inrNjnu so dyiKAw gurmuiK AwKI ]
adistu agocharu alakhu niranjanu so daykhiaa gurmukhi aakhee. SGGS Ang 87-19

Listeners and readers are perhaps curious to know who has seen whom and told about HIM.

Balbir Singh


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*Some More from Bhai Gurdas Ji:*


*Baba meets the Sidhs at Sumer Parbat Pauris 28-31 (significant lines) *
*Pauri 28.1 Babe dithi pirathami navai khandi jithe taki ahi. *
*Pauri 28.2 Phir jai charhia sumer par sidh mandali drisati ayee. *
*Pauri 29.6 Sidh chhapi baithe parabati kaun jagat kau paar utara. *
*Pauri 29.7 Jogi gian vihunia nis dini angi lagaye chhara. *
*Pauri 29.8 Baajh Guru dubba jagu sara. *
*Pauri 30.1 Kali ayee kute muhi khaju hoia murdar gusayee. *
*Pauri 30.2 Rajey paapu kamavande ulati varh khet kau khai. *
*Pauri 30.6 Qazi Hoe risvati vadhi lai ke haku gavai. *
*Pauri 30.7 Isatri purakhai daam hitu bhavai ai kithaun jai. *
*Pauri 30.8 Varatia pap sabhas jug manhi. *
*Pauri 31.7 Sabadi jiti sidhi mandali kitosu apana panthu nirala. **Baba Nanak toured the nine division of this earth and then went up the Sumer Mountain (Mount Kailash) and reached a party of Sidhs and asks them "as to why are they hiding, away from the public and the world. In their absence from the society, who would teach the public the path of truth? Jogis are without knowledge and are only applying ashes to their bodies. Without a Guru (Teacher) the whole world is drowning in ignorance. In Kaliyug the mentality of the people has become like that of a dog who is always seeking the dead to eat. Even the kings are corrupt as if the fence is destroying the crop fields. The Kazis whose duty is to dispense justice are taking bribes and giving false judgments. There is sin everywhere." Through dialogue Baba won over the Sidhs and proclaimed his unique True Panth.*


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## simpy (Jan 8, 2008)

*Dear Aad Ji,*

*here is the most beautiful one Satpartap sent me this today.*

*Bhai Gurdas Ji:*

*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one. *


*Waheguru Rakha*


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## Archived_member2 (Jan 8, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Quote "Bhai Gurdas Ji: I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one."
In my view, this translation cannot be correct.
This would explain that they did not cut Bhai Gurdas Jee into four pieces because nobody accepted Guru and God as one.
Please read the available translations carefully before trusting and quoting those on Internet.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2008)

Surinder ji

I read this, and am smiling from ear to ear. Big change from yesterday when it was too hard to smile. 

My thanks to your son.


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## Astroboy (Jan 9, 2008)

Bhai Gurdas - Key to SGGS - skeptical views vs. traditional beliefs 

Bhai Gurdas - translations in English - misleading vs. not misleading

Bhai Gurdas VaaraN - as a person - not disected into 4 parts.

Debate continues .........


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## Astroboy (Jan 9, 2008)

_Aad Ji,

What do you make out from this kind of statements!!! ? 

Quoted by Surinder Ji,* "Mere Veer Balbir Ji, you have already confessed that you are IGNORANT/LOST/LIVING IN DUALITY.................... even provided a proof:RAJNEESH and SOCALLED GURDEV OF YOURS. once again thanks for all the clarifications. Now your statements with 'KNOW', 'I', 'PLEASE' etc doesn't make any sense anymore to me neech.........*_

_*me neech can only pray for you, nothing else..................... "*_


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## simpy (Jan 9, 2008)

_


			
				namjap said:
			
		


Quoted by Surinder Ji,* "Mere Veer Balbir Ji, you have already confessed that you are IGNORANT/LOST/LIVING IN DUALITY.................... even provided a proof:RAJNEESH and SOCALLED GURDEV OF YOURS. once again thanks for all the clarifications. Now your statements with 'KNOW', 'I', 'PLEASE' etc doesn't make any sense anymore to me neech.........

me neech can only pray for you, nothing else..................... "


*Aad Ji,

What to do with this kind of statements!!! ? Kindly assist.

Click to expand...

_ 



*Wow, Aman Singh Veer Ji is allowing MODERATOR DISSCUSSIONS WIDE OPEN...................*

*great, i see........................ he he*


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## Astroboy (Jan 9, 2008)

Surinder Bhenji,

This is not a Moderator discussion. I'm merely addressing my frustrations as a participant in a debate that's leading nowhere. Thanks for your concern. 


Santokh


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