# Japji Translation Questions



## Ishna (Oct 17, 2010)

Sat Sri Akal

Hi everyone

I've started this thread as a place to gather questions specifically relating to translations of Japji Sahib.

Here's a question from the first line after Mul Mantar:

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār. 

The English translation by H. McLeod (and another I have but don't have the author with me) translates the above as:
"Never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times."​Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and the majority of other translations I've seen translate it like this:
"By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times."​So my questions is: which translation is right? And how can there be such discrepancy between translations?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Ishna


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## findingmyway (Oct 17, 2010)

This thread might help you understand better:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/32638-use-metaphor-gurbani-how-use-when.html

As far as I understand it, it's a comment on ritual bathing. Soch comes from sucha or to be clean. It also relates better to other tuks of Gurbani whereas the thinking translation doesn't make sense. We are always supposed to contemplate and meditate on Waheguru and follows the Guru's path to achieve realisation of Waheguru. This cannot be done without thinking!
Jasleen


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 17, 2010)

ishna said:


> sat sri akal
> 
> hi everyone
> 
> ...



Ishna ji,

Guru fateh.

I happen to agree with Jasleen ji. Sant Singh Khalsa got that translation from Yogi Bhajan and  sad to say that most of his literal translation is misleading and distorted hence does injustice to this beautiful poetry. It is tough to turn any poetry into prose especially Gurbani from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.Unfortunately Bhai Manmohan Singh also translates the verse just like  Sant Singh Khalsa.However, there is a bright side. Prof.Sahib Singh has explained it well. If you know Gurmukhi, Prof. Sahib Singh's explanations are the best.

Allow me to express why SOCH- SUCH- Purity is not what Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh claim it to be as thinking.

In Hindu mythology, it is claimed that there are four ways that help one to become a better/perfect/holy/in-tuned/be closest with/to The Source- Ik Ong Kaar.

1. To take dips in the holy waters of all the religious places. Guru Nanak said nothing is going to happen with this silly ritual which can not even cleanse our outer body.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

2. To keep the vow of silence called Mon Vrat. Guru Nanak said that  the tempests and the hurricanes within will not stop making horrendous noises if we force ourselves to keep silent.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥ 
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār. 

3. To eat as much as one can to satiate one's hunger. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one eats, after sometimes the hunger will comeback.Gluttony brings nothing but more gluttony.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥ 
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.

4.To gain knowledge by reading and becoming good parrots where one can spit out words to impress one's opponent. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one indulges in Me-ism by claiming to know everything results in naught if one has not learnt anything from that.This verse would be the duplication of thinking if SOCH were taken as such which would not make any sense.

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.

In the following verse Guru Nanak questions  himself, how can one become the Truth seeker then? What is the modus operandi for this to take place?

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥ 
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl. 

The answer lies in the last verse of the pauri which is the stepping stone of one's initiation to cultivate Gurmat thought process- Sikhi thinking.

One must learn to tread on the path of the HUKAM in order to start cultivating  Gurmat- the thought process of One-ism.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ 
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1|| 

In fact, Sikhi encourages one to cultivate the thought process in order to breed goodness within. Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only GURU is filled with the tools to lead us towards that.

So, SOCH as in thinking is part of Sikhi not SOCH as SUCH-becoming "pure" by taking dips in holy waters.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Oct 17, 2010)

Thank you both for your replies.  Sometimes I feel I'll never grasp gurbani because I lack the background knowledge to be able to interpret the metaphors.  Forums like this are just so valuable to newcomers like me.  Many thanks to you for taking the time to explain things.

Jasleen ji, I think the "thinking" translation does make sense, as I can understand it to mean that by thinking about God you can't get a whole concept of It no matter how much you think about It because it is so far beyond comprehension.  However, that is obviously not the meaning of this line as you and Tejwant ji have explained.

Translations are a minefield.  Of the 6 or so English translations I have, only 2 of them translate the "thinking" line as ritual bathing.  That is such a trap!  What other inaccuracies are there lurking in these translations I've previously relied on??

I'm very glad you've answered my question as I began to doubt the accuracy of one of the guidebooks I have (my favourite), but now I know it's the more correct translation and can proceed with confidence!

Ishna


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## Archived_Member16 (Oct 17, 2010)

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār. 

*My personal understanding of the above has been:*

"One cannot comprehend HIM through reason, 
even if one reasoned for ages."


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## spnadmin (Oct 17, 2010)

Soul_hyot ji

The reason I like your version is that it goes back to the words that are actually there. It is a stretch to figure out how McLeod came up with ritual purity or cleansing when nothing in the vaar comes close. I checked Guru Granth Darpan on this one.

Some version of soch is repeated over and over which carries the idea of thinking, reasoning, coming to the truth through mental processes. Thanks. The only way we can get metaphorically to cleansing rituals is if by thinking of thought as obsessive thought. And that does not fit the overall point of the pauree. 

You know McLeod did not know how to read Gurmukhi - maybe later in life he did. But this is one area where he should not be trusted.  And there are not very many where he can be trusted.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 18, 2010)

Soul_jyot said:


> ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
> socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
> 
> *My personal understanding of the above has been:*
> ...



Soul Jyot ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. As Ik Ong Kaar *IS*, I fail to understand what is there to reason about? Guru Nanak has described The Source in the Mool Mantar very well and given all the reasons possible in it.

We are surrounded by The Source's wow! and awe! factors.

Secondly, reasoning, Gurmat thought process are only cultivated through studying provided it does not breed Me-ism by making us Mr/Ms Know it All and this is explained in the fourth verse of the Pauri. There is no need for Guru Nanak to repeat the same thought in two verses, hence duplicate the same.

Thirdly, the last verse below puts all reasoning to rest and asks us to accept Hukam. In this verse Guru Nanak talks about reasoning being a futile endeavour in front of the Hukam.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ 
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1|| 

Lastly, Sant Singh Maskeen and Prof. Sahib Singh have mentioned the first verse as a ritualistic bathing in order to purify oneself with whom I happen to agree with. 

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 18, 2010)

Yes but Tejwant ji

Where does ritual cleaning factor in that particular line. 

socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

I don't think a translation can move completely outside the range of intelligible meanings.

socẖ *ਸੋc *takes two meanings from the original Sanskrit. It can mean either purity or thought. So how does one decide?

For a metaphor to make sense the reader has to see that there is an analogy between word and imagery. That is, something literal is connected to something that is not literal but figurative, imagined, felt, sensed, personal. The imagery then is brought into relation with the lword and its possible range of meanings. 


I am willing to be convinced that McLeod has  got a point. But what is the connection he has made between the line socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār, and what McLeod claims is _never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times? _

How in a figurative sense does McLeod connect cleansing oneself and ritual purity to  _socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār? _ I don't see it. If someone does, that person needs to make it happen in my head. McLeod does not. 

Professor Sahib Singh ji may have elaborated, or drawn a connection between ritual thinking and ritual bathing?  -- how? How does he explain it? Why would other translators take a completely different direction?

Another translator who also equates ritual cleansing with sochai soch na hovai is Gurpreet Singh ji (PK70) who at one time did post at SPN very frequently. I don't have his permission to copy here his reasoning from a draft translation that I have. But, perhaps dalbirk ji can find out whether we can introduce it into this very interesting discussion.


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## spnadmin (Oct 18, 2010)

It might be worth it for the sake of growing in this discussion to break the rules and hold out the English translation for the second pauree. 

It would be good to work at the idea the Tejwant Singh ji is raising. I take his meaning is that the ideas that represented in any one vaar in the end should fit together as a unified thought. 

Let's see where we go. Bringing in as many different translators' deas as we wish. And also adding personal reasoning.


ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||


ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||


ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||


ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||


ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||


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## dalbirk (Oct 18, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Sat Sri Akal
> 
> Hi everyone
> 
> ...


   Ishna Ji , 
    Here is the link to my blog which is exact translation of Guru Granth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh Ji in English which will help you have clear idea of the Shabad . Here I agree wholeheartedly with Tejwant Ji that Sant Singh khalsa translation is actually the biggest mistranslation of Gurbani online .

http://dalbirk.blogspot.com/2010/01/japu-ji-sahib.html

Sochai Soch(i) n hovaee je sochi lakh var.
Chupai chup n hovaee je laey raba livtar.
Meaning of difficult Words: Sochai: by keeping external sanctity; Soch(i): purity, holiness; Sochi: if I keep cleanliness, thorough cleanliness; Chupai: by keeping silent; Chup: stability of mind; Livtar: contemplation, focusing of mind.
Note: From the fifth line of the Pauri, it is clear that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is telling us the way of keeping the mind true and pure. The methods used by other religious i.e. bathing at places of pilgrims, trying to focus the mind in the solitude of jungles, satisfying the mind with Maya (mammon) and by describing the philosophy of the scriptures are of no consequence. He then explains the philosophy of Sikhism, and that is no live in Lord’s will and order.
       " If I maintain or try to acquire sanctity of my body by a hundred thousand baths at places of pilgrims, even then the purity of mind cannot by attained. If I contemplate continuously and observe perpetual silence, even then I cannot attain peace of mind. "


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 18, 2010)

RITUALISED PURITY...bathing at Teeraths..in the Ganga...68 TEERATHS..pilgrimages to Bathe..etc etc...and in modern day Jathas like AKJ this Sucham thingy is being carried on to extradordinary lengths..such as even non-Jath but Amrtidharees Singhs are not considered SUCHAM enough for the AKJ Sarb Loh Bibek etc etc...

THIS is One of the FUNDAMENTAL PRICIPLES or PILLARS of Hinduism/prevalent Religious behaviour of Guru nanak Jis time...and GURU JI sought to tell us..His Sikhs that its all HOGWASH. Its the MIND that s "dirty....polluted"..and its the MIND that needs to be cleaned..purified....for Salvation....NOT ....Bathing the BODY at TEERATHS and SAROVARS.

Guur Ji DEMOLISHED this Pillar/fundamental principle via this Line in japji..socheh soch na hovee....the SOCH has a SIHAREE and this makes it a Proper NOUN.."the PURE"...meaning Bathing/washing EXTERNALLY doesnt make one "pure/clean.."..BECAUSE THIS HUMAN BODY cannot ever be pure/clean...anyway...it "consumes" DEVTAS (life giivng products" like Water..Salt..Aaannh grains..Fat Ghee...all sweet smelling and nice looking....and expells them in a substance which people hold their noses at and spit at it !!....68 teeraths...the Large number shows how important bathing of the external had become..people by the MILLIONS bathed at Hardwaar during KUMBH..and at various phsaes fo the moon etc etc...it was RELIGIOUS DUTY !! which is NOT what Guru ji beleived in...


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## spnadmin (Oct 18, 2010)

> the SOCH has a SIHAREE and this makes it a Proper NOUN.."the PURE"...meaning Bathing/washing EXTERNALLY doesnt make one "pure/clean.."..



Ishna ji

This is probably the more convincing way of making the distinction between two meanings of soch. Gyani has helped connect word to concept. 

The sharee Gyani is is talking about is this character* ਿ  * in the word  [/SIZE][/B]*ਸੋਚਿ *

Making the word ਸੋਚਿ  into a proper noun the reference then is to pure individuals rather than to cognition or thought.


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## Ishna (Oct 18, 2010)

Well, isn't this a can of worms?!

This is tricky, because both interpretations seem to fit.

And it's not just Mcleod who translates the line in question as ritual cleansing.  The other translation I have is by someone called Bhai Harbhajan Singh from Malaysia (now resides in Sydney, Australia).  I am very fond of this translation and the extrapolations he has included to enrich understanding.

And although I know Mcleod has been discredited, his was the first translation I ever read of Sikh scripture and I admire the way he has made a gender-neutral translation.  I will continue to compare his translation of Japji Sahib to others and post discrepancies as I find them.

I'm leaning towards the ritual cleansing translation but will stay tuned!

Ishna


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## Ishna (Oct 18, 2010)

Wow, Gyani ji and spnadmin both replied while I was writing my response...

I always get confused with the siharis and biharis cos some of them are silent (like the ones in Mul Mantar) and I've seen people discussing how they they change the meaning of words but I struggle enough just trying to figure out if I'm supposed to pronounce them or not!

Oh the joys of being a noob!

Ishna


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 18, 2010)

spnadmin said:


> Yes but Tejwant ji
> 
> Where does ritual cleaning factor in that particular line.
> 
> ...



Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh,

First of all I want to thank Giani ji for clarifying the grammar part which I intended to do this morning. The good thing about living in different time zones is that when one is asleep, then some one else with a caliber like Gyani ji can take over. I also want to thank Dalbirk ji for his efforts.

I would like to clarify one thing that in none of my posts I ever mentioned the name W.H.Mcleod which you keep on bringing up when discussing what I have posted from my own understanding of the Pauri. I am not a fan of Mcleod at all. I did not check his translation. His books are collecting dust  on my book shelves. In my opinion all those non Sikh scholars especially the ones not of Indian origin exploited Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhi for their own personal benefits and gain. And as Indian culture is  ingrained in idolising  any one who just wears a cleaner pair of pants than theirs, becomes their hero and idol. This is what took place then when Sikhi was in disarray and due to this many foreigners took advantage because of the lee way given by the British Raj.

Dr. Pashaura Singh, the head of Sikh studies at University of  California,Riverside, is a typical Mcleod's disciple in every sense of the words. His PhD thesis based on Mcleod's writings about Sikhi was rejected first. He was forced to change his viewpoints due to that. I do not  know whether you remember or not, there were lots of protests against him being the head  of the chair. The matter was investigated by the University and he became the chair despite many protests. 

But he  has changed as Sikhi way is which makes us learn, unlearn and relearn daily and to his credit he has changed his stance in many things which were based on Mcleod's thinking. He and I have been having many  lively email interactions for a long time now. Although we still do not see eye to eye in many things about Gurbani, we are getting closer in many aspects.

Secondly, I would like to say is that every Shabad in Gurbani is like a beautiful, well designed and meticulously strung necklace. In the case of Jap ji. Mool Mantar is the pendant and the rest of the Pauris are the pearls and as any beautifully designed necklace, things can not be strung in an haphazard manner. They require pattern and flow of cohesiveness.After all it is a thought process especially in Sikhi where there is a lot of reasoning behind Gurbani. Pragmatism on which Sikhi is based on demands from us to keep the cohesiveness and do not string the necklace in a haphazard fashion. This is the reason the term Rahao in most of the Gurbani acts like a pendant.

I have given my thoughts about the Pauri and as you had a great idea of asking others to pin their thoughts so we can all interact in a Gurmat fashion. Then we can go to other Pauris after that.

All the thanks go to Ishna ji for giving us this opportunity to become better Sikhs.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 18, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji

I think you are referring to this part of my comments 



> I am willing to be convinced that McLeod has got a point. But what is the connection he has made between the line socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār, and what McLeod claims is never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times?
> 
> How in a figurative sense does McLeod connect cleansing oneself and ritual purity to socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār? I don't see it. If someone does, that person needs to make it happen in my head



This was basically a request to have McLeod's thinking explained to me, thinking you might do that. (Please note: I couldn't figure it out myself.) But having read both what dalbirk ji and Gyani ji have posted, it seems much clearer. It appears that McLeod is in agreement with Professor Sant Singh on this point, and he may even have consulted the Professor's writings. So now I have a possible answer. 

I agree with you that Dr. Pashura Singh has raised the bar for critical thinking regarding Adi Granth and other issues of Sikh history and scripture. Here at SPN is a long thread in which his writings were discussed. Dr. Pashura Singh was like a lightening rod. There were those who believed SPN should not have even tolerated a discussion of his work. However the results of persisting with this thread led only to greater knowledge on my part for sure. I hope others had the same experience.


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 19, 2010)

Similarly I have noticed the confusing interpretation done by most of the scholars of third pauri 'daida dey lendai thak paie jugha jugantar khaie khaei' as the great giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving or interpret as something similar to it when Guru Nanak very clearly dimisses in first stanza the ritual, 'bhukhia bhukh na utri - to eat as much as one can to satiate one's hunger. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one eats, after sometimes the hunger will comeback. Gluttony brings nothing but more gluttony or something similar to it then how come one becomes weary of receiving it when gurbani further tells us 'trishna virlai ki hi bhuji reh'. Further how can we consume/eat His gifts which are not eatable?
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder


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## Ishna (Oct 19, 2010)

Sahni ji

I've always interpreted the line "the great giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving" or similar as more than just the gifts of food but of all sorts of gifts like warmth and experiences and beauty, money, the ability to work, the goodwill of others, etc.  But no matter how well off someone is, or how much they receive, it will never be enough for the greedy and egotistical manmukh.

God will keep giving to them (if that is It's Will) and yet the manmukh will get sick of the gifts and not care that they are constantly receiving them because enough is never enough.

You've got to find contentment with your lot and remember that it all comes from God's Hukam and not take it for granted (ie. grow weary of receiving).

That's been my understanding since I don't understand the gurmukhi and this ritual of eating until one is never hungry again is new to me of just this week!

There appears to be value in most English translations even if they are not 100% accurate.  Of course, due diligence must be applied since you don't want a crooked translation to become commonplace and extrapolations to be based upon it which then eventually in about 100 years twists the meaning right away from the original.

Ishna


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## sunmukh (Oct 19, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Well, isn't this a can of worms?!
> 
> This is tricky, because both interpretations seem to fit.
> 
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

SSA Ishna Bhen ji,

It can become very frustrating for someone who has to rely upon translators' competency. I am in the same boat as you, as I only know how to speak lay  punjabi, and cannot read it easily. 

It is great to see that you are making an effort see past any discrepancies. As you search for solutions, your intuitive awareness will rise. 

With regards to your intitial query, personally I am of opinion that one's understanding is better if one takes much more than one line into consideration, which is why Mcleod came up with his version. Sant Singh Khalsa's version is more literal, and depends more upon translation of individual words. Then the sihiris. biharis, onkars, etc all come into play, whereas a wider perspective will lead to much more disregard for technical or grammatical points. 
The route you choose depends on your own objective - ie whether you are seeking understanding of a Sikh path and practice in daily life, or are you seeking to know for knowledge's sake (ie an intellectual pursuit)

The line you referred is within stanza one. That stanza is preceded by the slok to the Mool Mantar, which refers to the Absolute Truth. Jap ji Sahib is about Guru Nanak's search for that Absolute Truth. There are many references to Vedic principles and some Islamic principles, and possibly some Buddhist principles, depending on how you interpret text. However the techical aspects of other faiths pale into insignificance when one realises the direction in which Guru Nanak is taking the reader/his sikhs. 
IMHO, if one dwells on the technical points, then the direction is more easily missed. 
I take the essence of Pauri 1 to be as follows:

"There is no way to attain consciousness of the Creator’s spirit, through illogical methods.The Creator cannot be realized as a result of deep thought, maintenance of silence, or by offering material gifts to the Creator (at any places of worship).Any other similar methods based in superstition,  to try to reach out to the Creator,  will make no difference to the end result. 

One should accept life as is. It is the way the Creator willed so."

( http://1search4oneness.wordpress.com/the-sikh-faith/japji-sahib/japji-sahib/ ) - A blog I am going to try to write my own thoughts on, as and when I get time. 

Ishna ji, there are two other things I would like to add in:

A translation of a religious scripture is often written by somebody who has previously built up a perspective of that religion, due to his/her own understanding. The result is likely to be biased in some way or another, to a smaller or greater degree. Reading a variety (as you are doing) will reduce the effect, but not totally, if they are all written by people of that faith. 

Sikhs are generally averse to any links of their own faith to Vedic/Islamic/Buddhist principles. Generally, they reject them outright.
However if you consider texts of some of these faiths, or even introductory synopsis of their principles, then you are likely to come across many common features and references.  This does not necessarily imply they are being advocated or that they are being admonished, as result of the reference. The reference may simply be there because contributers to Gurbani were familiar with the terminology prevalent in those other faiths. 
I am speaking of terms like Truth, naam,  4 elements, 4 directions, world oceans, amrit, 3 qualities, 64 bathing places, 72000 nadis, chakras, central left and right channels, devis, khands, saadh-sangat etc etc. Much of these have deep meanings in Vedic philosophy, some cross into Buddhism and enter Sikhi as well. It does not mean they are meaningless, and it does not mean they are meanigful to a Sikh.They could be either. 

Now, I have to be careful here: 
If you read an introductory text on Krishna consciousness, then I am confident the insight you will get,  will help you in understanding SGGS ji.

There are many sources, on the internet, with thousands of texts, some free. 

One such text is:
www.prabhupada.de/Books/pdf/SriIsopanisad.pdf 

It deals with a series of mantras, but reading the translation and the meanings will help you. 
 Krishna consciousness is about love and devotion to one Godhead, and it is more about doing that than following particular technically and physically demanding practices, such as hatha -yoga. Sikhi is similar. There are differences, but  the insight you will get by doing a comparative study will help you spot the differences  and also understand why Gurbani is worded as it is. 

Some time ago, I was really puzzled why 3HO Sikhs followed Kundalini_Yoga practices. Then it all dawned on me. The yoga workshops set up in 60s and 70s were set up Hari Rama Hari Krishna types across the west in the hippy era. Most had to be vedic, but the yoga shops usually had little to do with Absolute Truth. Obviously some yoga practices of Western converts to Sikhi continued with them after hippy times ended, maybe because money can still be made. Now no-one bats an eyelid to these practices in Western Sikhs, yet they are not essential to Sikhi. The only thing of import is love for God. This is Guru Nanak's message and also common to Krishna consciouness:

p874:



> ਗੁਰਮਿਤ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹ ੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥
> 
> gurmat raam naam gahu meetaa.
> 
> ...





> Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||
> ​​​​​​​​​​​​


​​​​​​​​​​
 

Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2010)

sunmukh ji

I appreciate the time and the reflection that is obvious in your comments above. It is really important, as you seem to anticipate, that we are clear what you mean by this statement.



> Sikhs are generally averse to any links of their own faith to Vedic/Islamic/Buddhist principles. Generally, they reject them outright.
> However if you consider texts of some of these faiths, or even introductory synopsis of their principles, then you are likely to come across many common features and references. This does not necessarily imply they are being advocated or that they are being admonished, as result of the reference. The reference may simply be there because contributers to Gurbani were familiar with the terminology prevalent in those other faiths.
> I am speaking of terms like Truth, naam, 4 elements, 4 directions, world oceans, amrit, 3 qualities, 64 bathing places, 72000 nadis, chakras, central left and right channels, devis, khands, saadh-sangat etc etc. Much of these have deep meanings in Vedic philosophy, some cross into Buddhism and enter Sikhi as well. It does not mean they are meaningless, and it does not mean they are meanigful to a Sikh.They could be either.



I am understanding you to mean there are common concepts in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and other scriptures, in part because the Gurus and bhagats of SGGS were not only familiar with these concepts but were reaching out to the experience of the people of their times. 

It is a slippery slope to the argument that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is derived from earlier texts. I do not think you are saying that. Please understand that for us, our Guru has no bibliography of previous research. Our Guru is complete. 

Do not take my remarks as rebuke, but only to clarify matters. 

Many thanks


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## sunmukh (Oct 19, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> Similarly I have noticed the confusing interpretation done by most of the scholars of third pauri 'daida dey lendai thak paie jugha jugantar khaie khaei' as the great giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving or interpret as something similar to it when Guru Nanak very clearly dimisses in first stanza the ritual, 'bhukhia bhukh na utri - to eat as much as one can to satiate one's hunger. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one eats, after sometimes the hunger will comeback. Gluttony brings nothing but more gluttony or something similar to it then how come one becomes weary of receiving it when gurbani further tells us 'trishna virlai ki hi bhuji reh'. Further how can we consume/eat His gifts which are not eatable?
> Best regards
> Sahni Mohinder


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Sahni ji, this is how I understand Pauri 3:

"There are countless different understandings of the Creator, but none knows the limits or nature of the Creator.More and more understandings are provided by more and more preachers.Those who follow have always accepted stories. The followers of such sermons eventually tire of them but The Creator keeps on leading people to search and sets the route. 

One is inwardly content when one realizes the futility of  searches for purpose of life and accepts the Creator alone can lead one to solutions. The Creator will do this of His own accord."

I don't think "gifts" relates to anything material; from preceding lines I guess it is to do with the different ways in which people conduct their searches for God/the Truth. They tire of them, and then start afresh, as God has implanted this idea in them (the inner Guru/Sat Guru)  to find Him.

Sat Sri Akal


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## sunmukh (Oct 19, 2010)

spnadmin said:


> sunmukh ji
> 
> I appreciate the time and the reflection that is obvious in your comments above. It is really important, as you seem to anticipate, that we are clear what you mean by this statement.
> 
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

SPNadmin ji, I am not suggesting SGGS ji is incomplete. 

I am suggesting there is use of particular terminology, whether it be  soch as in the initial post from Ishna ji, 
sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar
 
or "sach" in the preceding line, 
hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach.

or "sat" in Sat Naam ( or Sati as discussed with Prakash S Bhagga ji in another thread),  which will have devolved from Guru Sahibans familiarity with other texts of their period, which their peers and ancestors will all have come across as well. Guru Sahibans also studied these texts, even though there is no plagiarism. They would not use the terms if they had not come across them, and if the local populus was not familar with them. For the same reason, that is why the use of Abrahmic terms is limited, and there is no reference to any religions of Australia, Americas, or Sub-Saharan Africa.  We have to be truthful, in that most new ideas are borne through past experience, and adaptation. New concepts are very limited in comparison. The concept of God is an ongoing development from pre-pagan times with its concomitant tantric macabre sacrifices to the current notions. 

Now, if one wishes to understand exactly what is being meant by a particular term, like the ones above, or terms like "four directions" or "three qualities" if one cannot make sense of a translation, then either one can look elsewhere in SGGS ji, or one can read other Sikh texts eg Vaars, or listen to Kaatha. 

However there is also the option of looking at texts which explain Vedic terminology. If the terms are common, then looking at these texts may  short-track one to the meaning, if one really wants to know exactly what was meant. Some sanscrit rooted Vedic technical terms may really only be fully understood by Brahmins, and unless one makes such a study one may be making guesses based on current lay usage of words. They may sound similar to current words, but they may have completely different meanings.

 For example there is the term "sunn-ia" in Pauris 8-11. It is commonly translated as "listening" probably because  the word in Punjabi is similar. The translated pauris sounded really odd to me. Recently  I looked at a Buddhist book and it spoke of a "sunn" state. Then I did a search for this word. It is rooted in sanscrit and refers to zero/void so in fact it is actually linked to what Buddhists refer to as the empty state. This completely changes the meaning of those pauris. The pauris are to do with objects who reside in consciousness of this empty or sunn, state , ie devoid of self-identity.

Then some Hari Krishna guy gave me a book called "Veda -Secrets from the East" in the city shopping centre.  They were handing them out free of charge. I have read just few pages so far, of about 400, and it is about Bhagavada_Gita and devotion to Krishna alone as the godhead. It speaks of other vedic deities, cows, castes and yoga and so on, but it comes back to notion that devotion to Krishna will override all and any failings in following other aspects. I was shocked at how similar parts of  it is ( parts, not in whole)to my understanding of Sikhi. Just the glossary explains many terms seen in SGGS ji. For some parts such as dealing with materialism, karma, reincarnation, seva, sangat, kirtan it could prove very revealing, and it even has a chapter on Jap (ie chanting of God's name). 

Then I read in book (on Tibetan Buddhism) about the concept of creating amrita(nectar of immortality). It was claimed it is a vedic idea, to do with some ancient battle between demi-gods and gods. Anyway, it was formed by churning the world's oceans, with a mountain found in Bihar, till it formed, with lots of intermediate stages. This got me thinking why water is stirred, with recitals,  and then claimed to be amrit. The point is, a  lot of the current practices and terms, whether they are lotuses, world-oceans, sunn, or amrit, will have roots in something or another, and until they are researched, then one will be left puzzled. 

I can't see how it can harm me to read something that explains the terms and phrases also used in SGGS ji in clear concise language. 


At the end of the day, SGGS ji advocates love of One God. If I love God, which I do,  then what have I to fear? 

Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2010)

sunmukhi ji

I do not think that reading comparative religious literatures will harm you. That can only expand your understanding of the expanse of dharmic beliefs. The problem I see arises when one understands Sri Guru Granth Sahib to be an extension or point on a continuum of dharmic philosophies. This is problematic because Guru Nanak's own course was to state that his message was a different. 

IMHO the technicalities you refer to come into play when parsing the meanings of words or vaars. But the overall understanding of the complete shabad brings one to something that is unique and very different from any of the holy books from other paths.


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## av8erprince (Oct 19, 2010)

:happysingh: Soch is thinking (or reason), and Such (pronounced sooch) is cleansing. Here it is Soch.


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## Naam (Oct 19, 2010)

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
These lines are very important to us all because they refer to what most Sikhs are doing today 
The first thing a bamun does is to take a bath and clean the area he sat in to eat and as you know in the Asa di var " socha eh na akhia bahn ja pinda thoha. 
The "soch" is pronouced with the "siari" for correct meaning 
So your answer is the first qoute that is in your question ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
Does not meaning " thinking" the thinking is further alone the jap bani  ..... " saas sania lak hova ta ek na chala nal
This line refers to thinks 

Waheguru waheguru japo paraniho


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## Rohinder (Oct 19, 2010)

I have seen the best translation of Jap Ji Sahib BY Rajinder S. Sandlas in English Poetry.

As per his translation it should be read as follows:

One may think hundred thousand a time;
One can not grasp Him in His mind.
One may practice silence time and again;
One can not initiate peace in his thinking domain


Some has taken the word Soch as Such. I think the correct meaning of the word is as they are pronounced. 

The "Supreme God" can not be explained in thoughts. He is beyond our imaginations. We can feel his presence but only way to really realize him is to bring yourself to that purity level where you become his part.

Commented by: Rohinder Singh
rohinder@aol.com


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## Naam (Oct 19, 2010)

The gubani is beond the explanation that are give in books 
It is for people who naam jap they experience the correct meanings only 
We must learn like our guru tells us to learn and understand .
First we must say " waheguru waheguru......."
Ram ram bola bola koj ta vad bhagi"
Any other way we translate the gurnbani is " chathrahi". This bani is endless and no one meaning is the only meaning it gets deeper and deeper as you get higher and higher in naam


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## Rohinder (Oct 19, 2010)

I do not agree that Gurbani is beyond explaination. Gurbani is explanable like any other holy book.
Also NAM simran is good. But blind faith is also not fruitful. Gurubani tells you everything if you want to know.


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## Naam (Oct 19, 2010)

You are 100% correct but like ANY holy book the language must be understood at the level it is written we cannot understand a doctors piscripation unless we have studied for that 
This is no ordernary book the message from god has lots of secrets I agree there are lots of lines that are starght forward but many you will be susprized have a deeper meaning

Please keep in contact your humble servant


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2010)

Naam said:


> The gubani is beond the explanation that are give in books
> It is for people who naam jap they experience the correct meanings only
> We must learn like our guru tells us to learn and understand .
> First we must say " waheguru waheguru......."
> ...



Naam ji you create an opening to go back to the question of alternative translations raised a few pages back. Thanks. With the forum's indulgence this may be of interest to this discussion. The English translation by Gurcharan Singh Talib provides more than one mode of translation throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib. For many lines either an "Alternative rendering" or a "Literal translation" is given. The translation is a 4 volume opus, heavily footnoted, to illustrate the many choices a translator has in completing the translation.

For the second pauree of Japji Sahib,  I have typed from page 1, as this translation is not available in an electronic format, but print only.

What I will do is give the Gurmukhi, transliteration and the Sant Singh Khalsa translation (also known as the Khalsa Consensus translation) for each line. Below that in italics you can read the translation and alternatives by Gurcharan Singh Talib. That way comparisons are possible. And indeed they are interesting.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

*GST: Ritual  purification though million-fold will not purify the mind
Alternative By reflection, even if million-fold, He cannot be realized.*

_Explanation of the alternatives: Soch if taken from the Sanskrit shauch means purity. However soch in Punjabi means thought or reflection. Hence GST is open to the alternative translation_


ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥ 
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

*GST: Nor may absorption in trance still it (Literally, "may not silence it"), no matter how continuous*


ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥ 
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.

*GST: Possessing multiple worlds quenches not the rages of avarice and desire (Literally "hunger"). *

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

*GST: A thousand million (Literally, " a hundred thousand") feats of intellect bring not emancipation (Literally, Shall not accompany the self into the Hereafter")*


ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥ 
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

*GST: How then to become true to the Creator? 
Alternative: How to become pure in mind?

How demolish the wall of illusion?
*

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ 
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

*GST: Through obedience to His Ordinance and Will, Saieth Nanak, This blessing too is pre-ordained  (implying earned merit through good actions of previous births, or the Divine grace)*

To add: The deviation by Gurcharan Singh Talib from Sant Singh Khalsa in pauree 3 as noted by respected japjisahib is even greater than for pauree 2.


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## Naam (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks


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## Siri Dartar S. Khalsa (Oct 19, 2010)

I am going to start off with a simple question. Do you believe that McLeod does simran on the Naam? If he lacks the practice and appreciation of trying to neutralize and expand his mind through meditation, how could he relate to the simple translation offered by Guru Sant Singh? There is an entire school of Yoga, Giana Yoga, the path of intellectual discrimination, that Guru Ji is discrediting here. Similarly, he is discrediting intellectualized religion. What is the polar opposite of this reliance on thinking? Jap Man Satinaam Sadaa Satinaam.


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## arshi (Oct 19, 2010)

Sadh Sangat Jio

Gurfteh parwan karni ji

I believe it is possible and reasonable to have more than one interpretation. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a fathomless ocean of wisdom and every time we dive we return with new and priceless gems of knowledge and spiritual treasure. If there was only one interpretation it would limit its teachings to a defined level of spiritual progress and awareness. Guru Granth Sahib Ji enables the devotee to experience ecstatic flights into the spiritual world without boundaries or constraints. Provided the interpretation enables the seeker to progress spiritually, there is no harm in it. With greater awareness and progress the understanding will change and the seeker will extract more from the Guru’s Shabad.

I recently started the translation of Japji Sahib and it is a slow but enjoyable experience. Below I copy the interpretation of the _pankti _in question as I understand it now. I am sure it will change with greater spiritual awareness and exposure to learned thoughts as expressed on this thread. I hope this helps. I am personally learning all the time even as I read this thread.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖਵਾਰ॥
*sochai soch na hovaee jay sochee lakh vaar*

The mind cannot be purified (sanctified) even if one bathes hundred of thousands times i.e. mind’s purity cannot be reached just through physical cleanliness. 

*Note:* alternative interpretation by some scholars is: He cannot be comprehended by mere thought even if we try to think of Him hundreds of thousands of times.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ॥
*chupai chup na hova-ee jay laa-ay rahaa liv taar.*

Neither can we reach inner silence by sitting silent in trance and deep meditation.


Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Ishna (Oct 19, 2010)

Maitreya ji

Thank you for your heartfelt response.  From what I have observed in this thread, with almost a 50/50 split of interpretations, I find myself really in no better position than when I started (except for picking a side to agree with!).

I think you've narrowed the issue down to the root -- personal interpretation, formed from one's life experiences, the research of scholars but more importantly, intuitive connection.  Someone else asked something along the lines of "how can you rely on a translation by someone who doesn't meditate on the naam?".  Personally I think that specific question is moot as someone's lack of spiritual discipline may not necessarily harm their intellectual pursuit.  More importantly I think, the question should be "how can you yourself begin to decipher translations when you yourself don't meditate on the naam?".

Whether the word is about a camel or a large rope passing through the eye of a needle doesn't really matter, for if you're in a spiritual mindset you will intuitively understand the meaning is it would be easier to fit something large through a tiny hole (which would be impossible) than it would be for a rich man to get into heaven (or a greedy manmukh to find liberation -- which must be even more impossible than getting the impossibly large camel/rope/kitchen table/small child's finger through the eye of the tiny little needle).

What I have learned from this thread is probably more important than the actual meaning of the translation.  To focus on the NAAM, read widely and come to my own intuitive conclusion which will hopefully be correct with Guru's kirpa.

Perhaps that's why Mul Mantar ends with "Gur prasad", because you'll not get far interpreting the wisdom within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without it.

I thank everyone for their contribution to this discussion so far!

Sat Sri Akaaaaal!

Ishna


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## findingmyway (Oct 19, 2010)

Naam said:


> You are 100% correct but like ANY holy book the language must be understood at the level it is written we cannot understand a doctors piscripation unless we have studied for that
> This is no ordernary book the message from god has lots of secrets I agree there are lots of lines that are starght forward but many you will be susprized have a deeper meaning
> Please keep in contact your humble servant



The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is much much more than a holy book. It is our Guru, our teacher. If you cannot understand your teacher, you need to try again but maybe use a different approach. The purpose of the Sikh Guru's was to bring the knowledge to the masses and cut out the middleman who was capable of distorting things for his own benefit. This has never been done before. Therefore the Guru is completely understandable, it just requires some effort. Just like you study for exams, this is our life exam! The Guru is not keeping secrets but revealing them kudihug


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## findingmyway (Oct 19, 2010)

sunmukh said:


> I am suggesting there is use of particular terminology, whether it be  soch as in the initial post from Ishna ji,
> sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar
> 
> or "sach" in the preceding line,
> ...



Respected Sunmukh ji,
This is a matter of communication. It would have been useless for the Guru's to use completely new words as the masses would never have understood them. They wanted the truth to be available to all without a middleman so using the same terms was essential. However, the Guru's frequently took the word but changed its meaning around completely to something else in a way that the sangat could follow the logic. Therefore, using the literal vedic meanings can often lead us astray!



> We have to be truthful, in that most new ideas are borne through past experience, and adaptation. New concepts are very limited in comparison. The concept of God is an ongoing development from pre-pagan times with its concomitant tantric macabre sacrifices to the current notions.


The Guru's again brought in a completely new concept of God from other religions of the time. Everyone else is 'God fearing' whereas a Sikh is 'God living.' Hindus personified God and gave the Gods human characteristics whereas Muslims made God into a figure who was to be feared and rewarded/punished. The Sikh concept of God loves all as we are his creation and furthermore he is part of that creation too. I think Sikhi is the only philosphy that has God as an active part of the creation rather than looking down over us.



> However there is also the option of looking at texts which explain Vedic terminology. If the terms are common, then looking at these texts may  short-track one to the meaning, if one really wants to know exactly what was meant. Some sanscrit rooted Vedic technical terms may really only be fully understood by Brahmins, and unless one makes such a study one may be making guesses based on current lay usage of words. They may sound similar to current words, but they may have completely different meanings.
> 
> For example there is the term "sunn-ia" in Pauris 8-11. It is commonly translated as "listening" probably because  the word in Punjabi is similar. The translated pauris sounded really odd to me. Recently  I looked at a Buddhist book and it spoke of a "sunn" state. Then I did a search for this word. It is rooted in sanscrit and refers to zero/void so in fact it is actually linked to what Buddhists refer to as the empty state. This completely changes the meaning of those pauris. The pauris are to do with objects who reside in consciousness of this empty or sunn, state , ie devoid of self-identity.


As I said earlier the Guru's wanted Gurbani to be available to all freely, therefore they would be more likely to use common words rather than obscure words from ancient texts which not many understood. Throughout Gurbani words from several languages have been used from the places the Guru's travelled to which again shows that they liked to speak to the common man and be understood by all.



> Then some Hari Krishna guy gave me a book called "Veda -Secrets from the East" in the city shopping centre.  They were handing them out free of charge. I have read just few pages so far, of about 400, and it is about Bhagavada_Gita and devotion to Krishna alone as the godhead. It speaks of other vedic deities, cows, castes and yoga and so on, but it comes back to notion that devotion to Krishna will override all and any failings in following other aspects. I was shocked at how similar parts of  it is ( parts, not in whole)to my understanding of Sikhi. Just the glossary explains many terms seen in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. For some parts such as dealing with materialism, karma, reincarnation, seva, sangat, kirtan it could prove very revealing, and it even has a chapter on Jap (ie chanting of God's name).


Again the concept of all these things is actually very different. Guru Ji used the same words but applied a different way of thinking about each topic to what was prevalent at the time. NANKIAN PHILOSOPHY IS COMPLETELY UNIQUE. Reading other texts can help with historical information and understanding some of the metaphors but the concepts are not the same.



> Then I read in book (on Tibetan Buddhism) about the concept of creating amrita(nectar of immortality). It was claimed it is a vedic idea, to do with some ancient battle between demi-gods and gods. Anyway, it was formed by churning the world's oceans, with a mountain found in Bihar, till it formed, with lots of intermediate stages. This got me thinking why water is stirred, with recitals,  and then claimed to be amrit. The point is, a  lot of the current practices and terms, whether they are lotuses, world-oceans, sunn, or amrit, will have roots in something or another, and until they are researched, then one will be left puzzled.


The concept of amrit is something that seems to have been distorted over time. Amrit is a state of mind rather than the physical water. Technically the ceremony is called Khanda di pahaul. Gurbani is full fo metaphors so these phrases are not to be taken literally. The context of the shabad gives a clue to what is metaphor and what is not. The way Gurbani is set out is also ingenious. Guru Ji often describes a prevalent myth/belief/ritual in the 1st lines then goes on to explain the flaw in logic then give new meaning. This is why it's important to look at the pauri as a whole and never quote just 1 or 2 lines.



> I can't see how it can harm me to read something that explains the terms and phrases also used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in clear concise language.


 Concise languange just doesn't do justice!! There is so much meaning in each and every word icecreamkaur


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## GurmatChannan (Oct 19, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Sat Sri Akal
> 
> Hi everyone
> 
> ...


SSA, 
Well the word "SOCH" comes from Sanskrit and it means to bath. Guru ji is trying to refer to those people who use to go to places like Haridwar, etc for bathing. Hindus have a believe that by doing such KARAMKAANDS they will be blessed by God. As this was a ritual so Guru ji tried to convey this to people that even by taking housands of baths like this, you cannot be blessed. (As per Maskeen Ji) 
I personally believe that this could be the possibility because in the first four lines of the HOLY JAPJI SAHIB JI, GURU NANAK DEV JI has tried to explain the superstitious believes that the people had at that time.


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## Gurmit Singh (Oct 19, 2010)

Waheguru jee ka Khalsa  Waheguru jee kee Fateh

While compiling The Sikh Liturgical Hymns (Guru Granth Sahib Pages 1 to 13)
for the guidance of Sikh Scripture Classes, rightly or wrongly I have also stated:

"Even if the person may clean and wash the outward body including kitchen
 for hundreds and thousands of times, Divine Enlightenment can't be attained
 without performing the righteous deeds. [Thus, Guru Ka Langar and Sarovors 
 open water Tanks were started where all can take part as equals without
 any distinction of caste or status]."

In the Japp Jee Sahib and Asa Kee Vaar, Guru Nanak Sahib had exposed the
hypocrisy of the Hindus, Muslims and Yogis, etc., and thus, advised the
Sikhs - not to resort to such practices.

Gurmit Singh (Australia)


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## eropa234 (Oct 19, 2010)

My advise to you is do not get stuck at a few words of Gurubani approach it with its collective wisdom. For example Bani states " Sukh Dukh dono sum kar Jano', these are very simple and straightforward words with clear meaning. Knowing the meaning would not help at all, after reading you will never be able to practice, it must be contemplated constantly over time to reap its benefit. An old song by Mohammad Rafi states " gum aur khusi mein fark na mehsus ho jahan, mein dil ko us MAKAAM pey laata chala gaya. It is the Makaam you want not the meaning.

Good Post.


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## findingmyway (Oct 19, 2010)

After spnadmin ji pointed out that we need to dwell on relating the meanings to the words (good point), I've been doing just that for 2 days and thought I would share my understanding. Before I do that I want to commend Ishna Ji and others for going beyond the translations and trying to form your own understanding. Only then can the full beauty of Gurbani be appreciated and only on understanding can we follow the Guru's path. My plan for this year is to study Jap Ji in all its glory as it has so so much meaning. Each and every word is significant. Each time you go through it you will understand more and on different levels. The katha I have about mool mantar was 2 hours long and about Jap Ji well over 10 hours!! Each week in gurmat class we only cover 1 pauri as there is so much to say!! However, I'll try to keep this away from essay length  


ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||

The sochai is referring to the soch, ie one doesn't achieve the other and the words are related in meaning. Ritual bathing doesn't achieve cleanliness. If we were to put thinking there I'm not sure how to translate. Thinking doesn't achieve thoughts? Also a number is given - 100 000. Thinking is not a finite process that can be counted whereas bathing is. If it referred to thinking rather than a number, I think a descriptive word would most likely have been used for lots as that would make more sense.


ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||

Again the chupai and chup are connected by word root and by na hovee. Keeping quiet does not result in inner quiet (peace or shanti) even if remianing absorbed. Again this relates to the body as just by stilling your body the mind cannot necessarily be stilled. I think this is a comment of yogic lifestyles. It is a way of saying that running away is not the answer but you need to stay in the real world and interact in the real world to face temptation. By runnign away, you may be surrounded by peace but you're not really conquering maya-just hiding from it.


ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||

Using the same formula as above, appeasing hunger does not get rid of hunger even if I have everyone's things. I do not think this refers just to hunger for food but hunger for anything. It's a comment on gluttony and greed. People who have so much still want more and are never satisfied, whether it's a good meal, the latest gadgets, money, clothes, shoes etc. If you chase short term pleasures of the world, you will never be satisfied no matter how much you have. The pleasure soono wears off and you need more. 


ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||

You might have hundreds and thousands of cunning tricks but none will go with you. So far we can see that each line is about a barrier to understanding Waheguru and following the Guru's path. First it was ritual bathing, then hiding away from the world, then gluttony, and now cunning. Thinking in itself is not a bar to spirituality-its how you use the thinking that matters as demonstrated in this tuk. By trying to be clever you're letting the ego take over and that will bar you from moving forward spiritually. Being cunning could mean you believe you are outside of hukam or you swindle others by passing it off as religion (Brahmans) or you think that I'm not allowed to do x but if I do y then z i get the same result but its ok as i haven't strictly speaking broken the rules as i didnt fo x!! I'm sure there are many other examples that you can all think of too! 

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||

Guru Ji has dealt with the barriers so needs to work out how to move forward. Therefore Guru Ji asks:
How do you become truthful and break past the barriers of falsehood.


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1|

Then the graceful Guru Ji gives us the answer-
Nanak writes that we should always endeavour to accept SatGuru's (Akal Purakh's) hukam. This means not doing any of the above things and becoming a Gurmukh. The rest of Gurbani goes into detail about staying within His hukam so it all fits in beautifully 


Apologies as this has ended up becoming an essay and its way past my bedtime.
GurFateh,
Jasleen.


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## findingmyway (Oct 19, 2010)

eropa234 said:


> My advise to you is do not get stuck at a few words of Gurubani approach it with its collective wisdom. For example Bani states " Sukh Dukh dono sum kar Jano', these are very simple and straightforward words with clear meaning. Knowing the meaning would not help at all, after reading you will never be able to practice, it must be contemplated constantly over time to reap its benefit. An old song by Mohammad Rafi states " gum aur khusi mein fark na mehsus ho jahan, mein dil ko us MAKAAM pey laata chala gaya. It is the Makaam you want not the meaning.
> 
> Good Post.



Without meaning you cannot follow the instructions. Without following you cannot be a Gurmukh as you would not know how!


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## Rupinder.Singh (Oct 19, 2010)

In my opinon, somewhere in back of our minds we are fearful. We dont want to believe, we dont want 

to accept, we want to oppose, we want to be distinct, we want to stand out and we want others to 

say that we are the only ones who know GOD. ( whereas 'WE'  is used for human beings, not just 

sikhs)

Does not all these desires and wantings contradict the very basic thoughts in Sri Guru Granth Sahib 

ji?

The moment we start agreeing to one thought that is the moment we start disagreeing to other 

thought. And in this process of proving, we loose track of our real motive, the motive to realise 

GOD.

Poetry is limitless expression of thoughts, lay language can never do justice to it as translation.

As we all know poetry uses metaphors, so to understand poetry we should have a basic knowledge of 

metaphor and its imagery. It is used to express the situations without using complete words.

As the imagery is diffrent from person to person, so does the reflections of thought and Thus 

translations to Lay language also differ.


Probably this is one of the reasons why our Gurus instructed us to read Bani everyday. Repeatedily 

reflecting on the same verses again and again, the thought process expands so does the meaning. 

For me Prof Sahb Singh's explanation makes more sense as he has taken into account the metaphor 

while translating it, where as other authors have tried to translate word to word.

Saying this I never mean that others are blocking me in any way, because as a whole, taking Soch as "thinking" does not either divert me from my primary goal to realize GOD, except repetation of 

thought in "Sahas Sianpaa....." 

However reading through the explanation of Jasleen Ji, It has further firmed my belief that SOCH here means physical cleansing.


I would say that there are many things that get clearer as we go through the complete  

bani, There are many verses that we need to rethink again and again for better understanding.


As long As we are moving forward, we will get somewhere, so keep flowing.

Rupinder Singh

mundahug


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## jasi (Oct 19, 2010)

SS AKal ji.


Fom me as Gurbani is wrtten in most simplestic way where very one can understand with little knowldge.


ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||

*One can not help it happen even one thinking hundred times!!*


ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||

*Even by keeping a long silences in spit of all efforts 
* 

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||

*your hunger will never vanish even you have a unlimited food in in front of you
* 

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||

*millions of wisdom get together nothing will work*


ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
*unless one is true to keep truth as one 's motive*

kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||

*he who folows the truth shall be free from all evils .*


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1|

*As Guru nanak dev ji suggested that evey thing is going to happen as per Hukam of Ek Onkar.|

Jaspi

Jaspi ji forgive me. There were some very odd links at the bottom of this and including links to my profile. I have removed them. Some kind of software glitch. Most odd. spnadmin*


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## seeker3k (Oct 19, 2010)

This is the problem with bani. It is written in poetry. Only the writer knows what he means. We all trying to understand the meaning according to our faith.
The word shoch is different from such. Sosh can not be such. Here he is trying to say just by thinking one can not understand the creator. If we read we can see it is written differently shoch n such.
In same pauri he tells us how we can be suche. The writer do not try to explain one thing twice in same verse. That will not be good poetry.

I am sorry my comp can not show the gurmukhi. That’s why I can not copy n paste the bani.


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## Santsingh (Oct 19, 2010)

Gur Fateh

The first translation obviously looks the meaningful if we look at the those times in India when people were involved in all kinds of rituals and so on. Shree Guru Nanak Patshah ji guided every one to come out of such rituals and focus on living under the ONE Supreme. i.e Hukam Rajai Chalna Nanak Likheya Naal. 

Just recall What Baba ji said in ASA Di Var.
Kaho Nanak Sach DhyaeeyeII
Such howe tan Sach PayeeyeII

and in Sukhmani Saheb ji Mahl 5 Said

Soch kare dinas ar raat, Man ki mail na tan te jaatII

and trying to understand the meaning of 

Soche Soch na howai je sochi lakh var,

it will be crystal clear that the first explanation is the right one as I understand by the good grace of Waheguruji.

Bhul chuk di muaphi bakshni

Sant Singh Marwaha, P. Eng., PMP
Whitby Ontario
Canada​


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## kawalsin (Oct 19, 2010)

Gur Fateh to all.

For all those who believe _soch _is for thought process, please read the following verse by Guru Arjun Dev Ji in Sukhmani Sahib:

_Soch karai dinas ar raat_
_man ki mail na tan te jaat_

_(He) bathes day and night_
_(but) the filth of mind is not washed off by cleansing the body_

I hope this lays to rest all spaculation about how Prof. Sahib Singh arrived at the meaning of _Soch_ as purity.

Gur Fateh

Daas

Kawaljit Singh

P.S. Sorry for not putting the verse in Gurmukhi. The computer I am using does not have Gurbani fonts.


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## spnadmin (Oct 19, 2010)

It is showing up fine on my computer.


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## manes_palam (Oct 20, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Sat Sri Akal
> 
> Hi everyone
> 
> ...





hello ishna ,

their can be many interpretations coz human mind can choose to be different at many times. one thing is very clear that it can never be understood by mind ....as mind is very shallow (it doesn't understand deep and never will be ) 
another thing which is clear is that it's about god(param- atma) onkar.

another thing is ...as they say body is temple of god .....meaning god will one day reside in this temple.

now the question is how this will happen ???

guru nanak is answering the above mentioned question
and he says 
---  it will never happen by thinking ... if you think thousands of times ... .......
---- this means gods is always their .... we are not allowing it to enter in ...as our ego becomes the barrier......  as long as you are their he cannot be ....

now what makes  your ego 
-------------brain ( you can think whatever .... u have complete freedom)
-------------mind (which want to acquire everything in the world)

nanak is saying that u can be smartest person in the world ....can acquire lots of things (property/fame )  ...alll worldly materials .....which makes your ego ( and your mind is still hungry).....but you can never attain salvations(mukti or god)  by the same means.

and this you can achieve by .......  submitting to his hukam or command...  that means everything happened in your life or in whole cosmos is coz of him ...  he was the doer   you was only the medium ...( like boat floats on water coz of water and driven by wind ....  put boat on piece of land it wont move even if the wind is their....  you r like water / medium ... through you god achieves his goals) 
the moment you have that submission .....    your ego vanishes .....as your r not the doer anymore ....   which means that god is doing everything...... this might sound silly ( that inside you god is doing it .....and you are god ).....there is great paradox as when you reach that stage you cannot say so .....this will make you egoistic and you lost it again ........ 
thats  why nanak in whole japji repeated that when someone in that state of mind it cannot be described ......  as you will regret it as you will loose it..as ego is like a shadow always follow you....

je ko kahe pichey pachtaye

to remain in that state of mind ...he refers to dhian and naam simran(rememberance)  and you have to go deeper and deeper  in that feeling ...................................and one day it will happen (union with god / when their is no difference between you and god ....... your self(atma) merges with god(param atma)

sikh religion or any other religion is nothing more than that ......

waheguru


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## Aulakh (Oct 20, 2010)

It is nice that SPN has raised a fundamental question.Actually if one looks up the whole Pauri in the relevant context it will be very easy to understand the meaning.The four issues raised by Satguru Nanak Dev ji in this Pauri refer to four schools of thought prevelant at that time
1.Those who believe that by taking bath at holy places one will become Sachiara(Tirath ishnan was resorted to by this group)
2.Those who believe that by entering Samadhi and not speaking anything one will attain that state(Sachiara)(Going silent and entering into samadhis was the way of this group)
3.By eating and enjoying wordly things, one's hunger will not be satiated and one will not enter in the world of Sachiar(Eat drink and be merry was the aim of this group)
4.By reading a lot of religious books and collecting knowledge(sianpa) one can not become sachiara(Those who resort to reading lot of religious books to become sachiara belonged to this group)
These four schools were predominant at the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji
But Guru says that only comming under HUKUM one can attain the stage of being a Sachiar
Humbly 
Gian Singh Aulakh


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

Dear members Fetah
I have read and answered many questions to the best of my given mind by satguru 
The translation of the bani can be done by anybody 
How deep the translation depends on how high the person is sitting ( which "lam" first second third or four ) these are the gurbani "lama" sang at someones wedding ( I am sorry I don't have punjabi font on my phone) 
The translation is only right once a person reaches " satguru"
Thus how the gurbani came through our gurus and bhagats
Once at this stage the translation will be right
Anything under this stage the translation "sounds"right 
Eg ... Like the shabad " divus" sounds or translates to day in some cases but the vouls have to be carefully looked at if the "s" has a okanr under it then it translates to inside the body "day...gian.." eg the word kirtan in cases used has a onkar under the "n" and in some cases not.  This will effect the translation 
The one with the "n" is the kirtan inside a person "gurmanter" and the one with out is the Hindu or outside one 
I hope this clears some confusion

Humble servant


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## dalbirk (Oct 20, 2010)

Naam said:


> Dear members Fetah
> I have read and answered many questions to the best of my given mind by satguru
> The translation of the bani can be done by anybody
> How deep the translation depends on how high the person is sitting ( which "lam" first second third or four ) these are the gurbani "lama" sang at someones wedding ( I am sorry I don't have punjabi font on my phone)
> ...



Dear Naam Ji ,
             Following is the exact translation of four Laavans sung during Sikh marriage as per Guru Granth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh Ji 

http://dalbirk.blogspot.com/2010/01/anand-karaj.html
*SUHI MAHALLA 4
(Page-773)
Her(i) pehalrhi la(n)v parvirti karm drirhaia,
Bal(i) ram jio.
Bani Brahma Ved(u) dharm(u) drirhauh,
pap tajaia Bal(i)ram jio.
Dharm(u) drirhauh Her(i) nam(u) dhiavauh
simrit(i) nam(u) drirhaia.
Sat(i)gur(u) gur(u) pura aradhauh
sabh(i) kilvikh pap gavaia.
Sahaj anand(u) hoa vadbhagi
Man(i) Her(i) Her(i) mitha laia.
Jan kahai Nanak(u) la(n)v pehli
arambh(u) kaj(u) rachaia.1.*

Meanings of Difficult Words : Her(i) pehalrhi lav(n)-The First la(n)v circumambulation of a (seeker) bride for her marriage with the Lord; Parvirti karm-indulging in the meditation of the Lord’s name; Drirhaia-(Guru has) instilled it resolutely; Bani-the utterances of Guru; Drirhauh-reaffirm in the mind; Tajaia-are forsaken; Simrit(i) nam(u) drirhaia-(The Guru) has re-determined the seeker to meditate on the name of the Lord; Kilvikh-sins; Sahaj anand-the pleasure and comfort of spiritual stability; Arambh-in the beginning; Kaj(u)-marriage.

Meaning : O Lord! I am sacrifice upto you. By Your Grace, the kind Guru has instilled in the heart of his Sikh to remain attached with the name of the Lord perpetually. He has re-affirmed it. And this is the beautiful first circumambulation of a seeker with the Lord-husband. O brother! the holy utterances of Guru (Gurbani) are the Vedas of Brahma for a Sikh. By the grace of this bani, instill and rehabilitate the Lords name in your mind and adopt it as a matter of religion in your life. Meditation on Lord’s name removes dross of all the sins from one’s life. O brother! keep remembering the Lord. instill this routine of a human birth in your life. the re-affirmation of meditation on Lord’s name that the Guru has done is his sermon for life that should never be forsaken at any time. Remember this sermon of the complete Guru and this blessing with remove and destroy all sins and vices from your life.
Hey brother! one who feels the love of Lord’s name in his mind, that fortunate person enjoys the spiritual stability. Slave Nanak says-meditating Lords name is the first La(n)v circumambulation of the marriage of the seeker with the Lord husband. The marriage event of a seeker and his/her Lord husbands commences with the Simran of Lords name.

*Her(i) dujarhi la(n)v sat(i)gur(u) purkh(u) milaia,
Bal(i)ram jio.
Nirbhai bhai man(u) hoey,
haumai mail(u) gavaia Bal(i)ram jio.
Nirmal(u) bhao paia Her(i) gun gaia,
Her(i) vekhai Ram(u) hadurey.
Her(i) atam Ram pasaria suami,
sarb rahia bharpurey.
Antar(i) bahar(i) Her(i) brabh(u) eko,
mil(i) Her(i) jan mangal gaey.
Jan Nanak duji la(n)v chalai,
anhad sabad vajaey.2.*

Meaning of Difficult Words : Her(i) dujarhi la(n)v-The second la(n)v; circumambulation of the marriage of the seeker bride with the Husband Lord; Sat(i)gur(u) purkh(u) milaia-The true Guru brought the Greatman in the contact with the she-being (Seeker), Bal(i)ram jio-O Lord! I am sacrifice unto You; Bhai-all worldly fears; Gavaia-Guru removes unto You; Bhai-all worldly fears; Gavaia-Guru removes them all; Nirmal bhao-reverential fear; Vekhai-sees; Hadurey-ever present nearby; Atam Ram pasaria-God is spreading His self all around; Bharpurey-present; Eko-one only; Mil(i) Her(i) jan-by meeting the saints and servants of the Lord; meeting the Sadh sangat; Mangal-songs of praise; Chalai-commenced; Anhad-unstruck music; Sabad vajaey-as if instruments of praise and eulogy has been sounded.

Meaning : Hey Lord! I am sacrifice unto You. By showering of Your grace, the seeker whom You meet with Guru, the holiest of holy, is mind becomes free of all the worldly fears. Guru removes all the dross of ego (haumai) from his mind. This then is the second la(n)v of the union of the seeker and the Lord.
O brother ! with the removal of ego (haumai), the seeker being then sings the paeans of the Lord. He/She develops a reverential fear of the Lord in his/her mind. He/She sees the Lord dwelling by his/her side. Such a seeker is convinced that all this worldly expanse is the spread of Lord Himself. The Lord is dwelling in the body of every creation that He has created. Such a seeker bride sees the presence of the Lord in and outside of everything of the world. Such a bride joins the holy gathering of His beloveds (Sadh Sangat) and keep singing the paeans and glory of the Lord.
Hey slave Nanak! say-by coming into the refuge of the Guru, by removing the ego and involving the bride in the singing of praises of the Lord and sensing His presence all around in everything, the Lord has commenced the second la(n)v of the marriage of the seeker being. The seeker who reaches this state experiences perpetual singing of the praises of the Lord in his/her mind.

*Her(i) teejarhi la(n)v,
man(i) chao bhaia bairagia(n) Bal(i)ram jio.
Sant Jana Her(i) meyl(u) Her(i) paia
vadbhagia(n) Bal(i)ram jio.
Nirmal(i) Her(i) paia,
Her(i) gun gaia, mukh(i) boli Her(i) bani.
Sant jana vadbhagi paia,
Her(i) kathiaia akath kahani.
Hirdai Her(i) Her(i) Her(i) dhun(i) upji,
Her(i) japiai mastak(i) bhag jio.
Jan Nanak(u) boley tiji la(n)vai,
Her(i) upjai man(i) bairag(u) jio.3.
*

Meaning of Difficult Words : Teejarhi la(n)v-beautiful third la(n)v; Man(i)-in the mind; Bairagia(n)-In the mind of those who have detached themselves with the world; Chao-excitement of meeting the Lord; Meyl(u)-meeting; Vadbhagia(n)-fortunate people; Her(i) bani-the utterances of praise of the Lord; Kathiai-we should recite; Akath-indescribable; Akath kahani-the praise of the indescribable Lord; Hirdai-in the heart; Dhun(i)-attachment with the rhythm, engrossed; Japiai-should be remembered; Mastak(i)-On the forehead; Bhag(i)-good fortune; Nanak(u) bolai-Nanak says; tiji la(n)vai-during the third circumambulation of the marriage of the seeker being with the Lord; Man(i)-in the mind of the jeev-istari (seeker bride); Her(i) bairag-strong desire for the union with the Lord; Upjai-gets generated, grows.

Meaning : O Lord! I am sacrifice unto You. Those detached with the world are blessed with a desire to unite with you by Your grace. this spiritual state is the third la(n)v (circumambulation) of the marriage of the seeker with the Lord.
O brother! those fortunate who are able to enjoy the company and association of saintly persons are also able to realise the Lord. they unite with the Lord God who purifies the life of a person. They ever indulge in the singing of Lord’s paeans. They utter words in the glory of the Lord. Such fortunate people unite with the Lord in the company of saintly souls.
O brother! we should keep praising and eulogizing the indescribable Lord for ever. One who remains attached with the memory of Lord, gets blessed with the perpetual love of the Lord and he remains engrossed in it. But one can remember and meditate on God’s name if one becomes fortunate and blessed person.
Slave Nanak says ! that during the third circumambulation (la(n)v) of the marriage of seeker with the Lord, a strong desire of meeting with the Lord gets generated in the heart of a seeker being.

*Her(i) chautharhi la(n)v man(u) sahaj bhaia
Her(i) paia, bal(i)ram jio.
Gurmukh(i) milia subaey,
Her(i) man(i) tan(i) mitha laia, Bal(i)ram jio.
Her(i) mitha laia, merey Prabh bhaia,
andin(u) Her(i) liv lai.
Man chindia Phal(u) paia suami,
Her(i) nam(i) vaji vadhai.
Her(i) Prabh(i) Thakur(i) kaj(u) rachaia,
dhan hirdai nam(i) vigasi.
Jan(u) Nanak(u) boley chauthi la(n)vai,
Her(i) paia Prabh(u) avinasi.4.2.*

Meaning of Difficult Words : Chautharhi la(n)v-fourth beautiful la(n)v; Man(i)-in the mind (of seeker being); Sahaj(u)-spiritual stability; Gurmukh(i)-by becoming Guru conscious; Subhaey-by engrossing in the love of the Lord; Man(i)-in the mind; Tan(i)-in the body; Prabh(u) bhaia-Lord loved it; Andin(u)-all the time; Liv lai-remained engrossed; Man Chindia-as desired by the heart; Nam(i)-through the name; Vaji vadhai-a state of prosperity came into being; Prabh(i)-The Lord Himself; Thakur(i)-God Himself; Kaj(u)-all the arrangements of the marriage of the seeker bride, Rachaia-commenced; Dhan-bride, Hidrai-in the heart; Nam(i)-by the blessings of the Lord’s name; Vigasi-bloomed and blossomed; Chauthi la(n)vai-during the fourth la(n)v of the seeker bride with Lord husband; Avinasi-one who is indestructible.

Meaning : O bewitching Lord! I am sacrifice unto You. By Your grace the seeker bride who develops spiritual stability, gets to meet you. This spiritual state is the fourth stage of union of the seeker bride with the Lord husband.
O brother! take the refuge of the Guru, the seeker bride who then gets to unite with the Lord experiences His love in mind and body. Then God also starts loving that seeker more intensely. Such a person remains engrossed in the memory of the Lord. Such a person then receives the much desired fruit of Lords union. By the blessings of the Lord’s name, his mind remains in a state of prosperity and progress.
O brother! the arrangements of the marriage of the seeker bride that the Lord commenced, the mind of that bride remains in a state of ecstasy with the perpetual Simran of Lords name. Slave Nanak says-in the fourth la(n)v (circumambulation) of the marriage between seeker bride and the Lord husbands, the bride achieves the union with the indestructible Lord God.


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## dalbirk (Oct 20, 2010)

Naam said:


> Dear members Fetah
> The translation is only right once a person reaches " satguru"
> Thus how the gurbani came through our gurus and bhagats
> Once at this stage the translation will be right



Dear Naam Ji ,
               I hope you are not suggesting what I seem to grasp . But the Gurbani can be translated easily exactly the same way even if ten thousand persons translate it based upon GURBANI GRAMMER ( Gurbani Vyakaran ) first introduced by Guru Angad Dev Ji & finally completed by Guru Arjan Dev Ji . Prof Sahib Singh Ji translated it in GURU GRANTH DARPAN based upon Gurbani Grammer only which is why it is still regarded as the most authentic & accurate translation by 99.99999% of scholars & religious authorities till today even 45 years after it was completed .


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

Just one question who is SATGURU ? 

Humble request


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## manpreet007 (Oct 20, 2010)

IS DA ARTH EH HAI KI ,
KOI V INSAAN  OS AKALPURAKH DI PURI DETAIL NAHI DE SAKDA .............:khanda3:


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## manpreet007 (Oct 20, 2010)

one and only AKALPURAKH is satguru


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

The gurus did and they were insaan!


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## dalbirk (Oct 20, 2010)

The Satguru of a Sikh is the Guru ( Teacher ) who is complete is all respects , following whom a Sikhs get to meet Lord God . In the case of Sikhs a Satguru is the WORD OF GOD enshrined in holy Sri Guru Granth Sahib which was revealed by all Sikh Gurus ( also practised by them in daily lives ) , Bhagats , Bhatts & all those enlightened humans who got the revealation from God Himself . This is to be kept in mind that the Sikh Satguru is unlike Semitic Prophets who stand as witnesses to save their followers only . The Sikh Satguru is capable of making a Sikh achieve liberation & merger of soul with God if he/she follows the path prescribed by the Satguru . The Sikh Satguru does not act as middlemen between God & Sikh , the Gurmatt way is a GADDI RAH ( A SUPER HIGHWAY ) as Gyani Ji calls wherein there are no stoppages , no deviations , no tolls just cruising at top speed to living emancipation ( Liberation while living )


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

Thankyou manpreet ji


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## dalbirk (Oct 20, 2010)

Naam Ji ,
               Some of the videos if I am not jumping the gun 

YouTube        - MASKEEN JI REVEALS TRUTH OF RADHA SWAMI'S WHO CALL THEMSELF GURU PART 4/8.

YouTube        - MASKEEN JI REVEALS TRUTH OF RADHA SWAMI'S WHO CALL THEMSELF GURU PART 5/8.

YouTube        - MASKEEN JI REVEALS TRUTH OF RADHA SWAMI'S WHO CALL THEMSELF GURU PART 6/8.

YouTube        - MASKEEN JI REVEALS TRUTH OF RADHA SWAMI'S WHO CALL THEMSELF GURU PART 7/8.

YouTube        - MASKEEN JI REVEALS TRUTH OF RADHA SWAMI'S WHO CALL THEMSELF GURU PART 8/8.


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes you are right to the point were you say " the sikh satguru does not act as a middleman"
The gurbani say " jaysa satguru soni tha taso he ma deet vista mala purbo har dargaa KA bits"

As you know how to translate there IS a 
Middle Satguru you must cross before meeting god 

Jis no tum mala  sadsangth KA pasaa

Even this line says you must meet with the saad ( satguru)
With out satguru you cannot meet god and satguru is  NOT guru granth Ji as most believe.  It is our life and our gian
If we believe it takes the place of satguru then who was kabirs satguru and the other bagths before guru Granth ji please don't mistake me I believe in the guru Granth ji but it is not satguru


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## sunmukh (Oct 20, 2010)

Naam said:


> Yes you are right to the point were you say " the sikh satguru does not act as a middleman"
> The gurbani say " jaysa satguru soni tha taso he ma deet vista mala purbo har dargaa KA bits"
> 
> As you know how to translate there IS a
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Have to go part-way with Naam ji here. Satguru is not SGGS ji, but I don't believe Satguru is life or gian either.
IMHO Satguru is innate Guru that is only revealed or met, upon destruction of all self-identity. One's identity merges into the identity of the perfect Satguru, who has not been defiled with any human conditioning or attachments. it leaves one pure. 
Subject to Satguru's graace ( SatGur Prasad) one will then be introduced to the  Absolute Truth - God consciousness will arise in an overwhelming fashion. 
SatGuru is almost like an ambassador.

Maybe this discussion should be put in a new topic, rather than on this Japji topic.

Sat Sri Akal


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

Sorry let me refrase this I ment guru Granth ji is our life that is our guidance to god without it we would be lost 
But it is not to be called satguru because if you calls it satguru then the gurbani will not translate correctly when you read the word satguru 
Your mind and thoughts should not picture the granth


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Oct 20, 2010)

Dear Sir,

McLoad has adopted Prof sahib Singh's version, while others have followed the literal version. It is for sure that the line 'soche: sochu n hovai: je soche: lakhu va:r' has followed a;di sachu juga;di sachu, hai bhi: sachu hosi bhi sachu. These are the attributes of God. To link further it is logical that  the attributes of God are explained further. When we consider that 'One cannot think about Him (He is beyond thinking), one may think million times,'; it provides continuity to God's attributes i.e., beyond thinking. Let us see the other meaning transcribing it as 'shoche' cleaniliness here cleaniliness is attached to human body; hence does not provide the continuing link. 

Let us go to the next line 'chupe: chup na hovai: je lai raha liv ta;r'    It means one cannot be ever quite, even if I concentrate on Him continuously (while concentrating in meditation on God). It continues to describe further that one cannot think about Him continuously; one cannot concentrate on Him continuously, hence it is a continuity about God, but in the next line the individual's physical inabilities vis a vis God's attributes are highlighted. Next line 'bhukhe: bhukh n utre: je bana; puri:a: bha:r'. The major problem with the human being is that he has been sentenced with hunger, which never ends, even though he may collect a large scale of puri:s, since food is digested every time and one is again hunger after 5-6 hours in continuity. The person has to ask for food hence he calls for it (calls out for food as he  cannot keep hungry.)  He cannot continue his meditation continuously because of this hunger. Hence the line soche: soch....' is linking to thinking of God and not to the cleanliness of body as depicted by Mclaoad.

Dr Dalvinder Singh Grewal


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## meera (Oct 20, 2010)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji Ki Fateh..

In my opinion, the word of the scripture appeals to the devotee/ teachers differently and every interpretation is valuable. The operative word is 'soch' which is thought.

To my mind it seems the Guru is saying, 'the Lord is beyond thought.' That means we cannot know Him using our mind and intellect. Because we are limited humans and we can know only all that is knowable using the 5 sense organs. And all such knowing that arises from the 5 sense perception (and hence including the mind and intellect which can only process what the 5 senses see/hear/taste/touch/smell) limits the Lord to something that is perceivable so simply. 

Knowing the Lord is an experiential state, hence no matter how many lakh times you think about Him, you will try and interpret Him in worldly ways only, through a see-able, hear-able, taste-able, touch-able entity. Whereas the japji sahib says: Merely thinking again and again about the Lord will not reveal Him to your inner self. 

McLeodji probably hints at this by saying:  All ritual, purification havans etc... can only inch by inch cleanse your mind which is covered with filth...but you need to go to a state of no thought; that would be a state where you are one with the Lord, just as my hand is not a thought but me; when I think, it includes my face, legs, hands, toes, stomach...everyhting. In a similar way I have to come to be One with the Lord, adn therefore thoughts won't get me there.

Forgive me if I am hasty and speak foolishly. I am a student and would like to learn from everyone...

pranaam..
meera


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## khalsa1469 (Oct 20, 2010)

Dear all,

Every work by an interpreter (and we are all interpreters) is a snapshot of his/her understanding at a particular time. Each of the above mentioned scholars may well have grown to change their mind about their earlier attempts.  So, let us do our best to understand what is in front of us.  Repeated, implicitly pejorative, references to McLeod are not helpful to this discussion - they betray a bias.

I thank those who posted their interpretation of Prof. Sahib Singh's interpretation.  Of those that I have studied, his is the most sensible.

The lines prior to the question (Kiv Sachiara hoiai, kiv kurhai tutai pal) and answer (Hukam Razai chalana, Nanak likhia nal), are references to futile activities that do not help us be a Sachiar.  That much should be beyond debate.  Why?  That is because each of the lines refer to activities that prove a failure (na hovai, na utari), which is followed by the question that indicates the earlier lines refer to activities that are not useful in being a Sachiar.

What activities, then, are futile?  At first blush, and because most of us do not speak the same language as it was spoken 500 years ago, it appears that Sochai refers to thinking.  But that is incorrect.  It refers to Such or Sucham.

We know this by referring to the third line of this Paurhi - Sahas sianapan lakh hovain, tan ik na chalai nal.

Bhai Kahn Singh 'Nabha' in his "Mahan Kosh" translates Sianap as understanding, cunning, etc.  The reference is to the use of knowledge, which has both positive and negative uses.  Clearly, in this line the Guru is referring to the negative aspect of Sianap that proves futile in being a Sachiar.  So, we can be confident that the meaning of Sianap has to do with a sense of cunning or misuse/ misapplication of knowledge.

What about thought processes or thinking?  Thinking and the process of thought is what leads to Sianap, which may be positive or negative.  So, thinking is a prerequisite for Sianap and is covered in this line.  Yet, it is not thinking that is being decried in this line.  What is being decried is the misuse of what we learn or the lack of implementation of what we claim to have learnt.  The Guru says that no matter how cunning or quick we may be, we may yet miss the essential wisdom and the crux of all our learning.

So, back to the first line of the Paurhi - the Sochai here is not the contemporary Sochna, thinking, but an act that is meant to make us Sachiar.  Like the other two references - contrived silence (as a means to inner peace), and indulgence (as a way to overcome the urge to indulge), this refers to an act that was common to society and was integrally related to the sphere of religiosity or spirituality (pardon my use of these labels).  All we need to do is to look around South Asia and it is clear that the most common act to purify oneself - Such or Sucham - is by way of ritual bathing at Tirath asthan.

BTW, this includes the act of purifying ourselves by "washing" our feet (in the dirty water) before entering Darbar Sahib - which is enforced by the guards (what are they guarding?).  This is also reflected in our compulsive hand washing prior to holding a Pothi.  We never worry about our mind (and the dirt that is within), but are overly concerned about the cleanliness of our extremities.

Of course, hygiene is important.  But, occasional hand washing or washing of our feet (prior to holding a Pothi or entering a Dharamsal) will not clean our mind.  That would require a perpetual discipline and focus.  It has to do with Hukam and Raza.

The Guru, to my understanding, says that all other acts are futile attempts to be a Sachiar.

So, the Sochai in the first Paurhi refers to ritual cleanliness as a futile means to be a Sachiar.

Is Sucham practiced by us in other ways?

Let's evaluate much that we take for granted, and many holier-than-thou folks take as the proof of their superiority over others.

Akal Sahai!

Gaurav Singh


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## parryrai (Oct 20, 2010)

Guru pyareo , Today is my very first day of getting into this discussion. I really enjoyed everyone's views. I agree to everybody. To me Satguru Nanak Dev ji's bani is so vast and great that it is impossible to come to any one solid meaning. To me it is a view from different angles. It depends on from which angle one is looking at it. The meaning changes every time you grow( physically or spiritualy). So I would say no body is wrong and don't stick to one translation. Explore yourself and try to get your own answer to bani. I know I may be wrong but it is may opinion . So aap sabh anjaan samajh ke maaf kar dena jee. Veechaar baut jarooree hai . Guru aap sabh te mehar bhareyaa hath rakhe. ikonkaar


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## Naam (Oct 20, 2010)

I agree with your thoughts 
Just one thing to consider in your explanation you mention 
Paurhi .. Japi does not have paurhi.  They are" annks" identified by numbers
Asa di var has paurhi because guru sahib has written paurhi were needed
Just like "we" say japi shabi     It is jap and only jap
We take for granted what gurus wrote


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## kawalsin (Oct 20, 2010)

Dear Naam Ji

Gur fateh. Your query about who is Satguru is answered in Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji by Fourth Guru Nanak, Shri Guru RamDaas ji on Ang 169:

_Jis miliay man hoye anand so satgur kahiay ||_

_Man ki dubidha binas jaye har param pad lahiay ||_


_Meeting whom (our) mind is filled with bliss, He is called a Satguru ||_
_There is no more doubt in the mind and the highest seat (position of being one with God) is achieved._

Third Guru Nanak, Guru AmarDaas ji has aid in Anand Sahib (on Ang 922 of Shri Guru Garnth sahib Ji):

_Anand anand sabh ko kahai, anand guru te jania_

_Everyone (just) talks of bliss, (but) bliss is known (only) through Guru._

There are inumerable so called Sants and Babas claiming to be in bliss and the unsuspecting followers call them Satguru. One should beware of them and understand that the only Guru/Satguru for Sikhs is Shri Guru Granth Sahib.

Gur fateh

Kawaljit Singh


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## Harinaam (Oct 20, 2010)

Mcleod is right for the reason that he got it from people of the time more nearer to the GURUs time who from generation to generation passed on the meaning as was understood and known and at that time India was one and the Language and vernacular meanings were not distorted or confused.
After partition of India lot of real history and language has been lost or confused.  My great grand parents and older saints I came in contact did explain like mcleod.

Mcleod never visited India during translation but after that and his source were then scholars and people of the time.  Moreover Gur Ka Shabd Vichar is also said in Gurbani Vichar and Thinking is similar why then GURU will undermine thinking when so many places good thinking is required. A good research of word Thinking as used in Gurbani at other places will further clarify.

HP Luthera


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 21, 2010)

sunmukh said:


> Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
> 
> Sahni ji, this is how I understand Pauri 3:
> 
> ...


 Now coming back to confusing interpretation of, 'ਦੇਦਾਦੇਲੈਦੇਥਕਿਪਾਹਿ॥ ਜੁਗਾਜੁਗੰਤਰਿਖਾਹੀਖਾਹਿ॥ ' of japjisahib page 2, it is not possible that one stance, ' ਭੁਖਿਆਭੁਖਨਉਤਰੀਜੇਬੰਨਾਪੁਰੀਆਭਾਰ॥, refers to the ability of individual to consume the resource and the other calls of weary of receiving.

You are right it is not related with anything material but then again if we interpret meaning of 'thak' negatively the continutity and the context of the whole pauri is killed which is referring to different modes prevalent to conquer the mind. In fact word 'thak' is derived from Bengali language which means settles down. The moment we take positive meaning of 'thak' the puzzle is solved, that gems of divine wisdom are continually being showerd and those who partake and contemplate on divine wisdom, their mind gets settled once for all. Similary gurbani tells us 'jeh ko khavai jeh ko bhunjai tis ka hoey udharo.' so it is not relating with consuming the material items but contemplating on the guru ka sabd and juga jugantar is not age after age but once for all and for ever. 

Gurbani once again clears it 'saach naam adhar mera jin bhukha sabh gavaeiya those who take supports of divine wisdom. their further wandering is stopped.

Best regards 
sahni mohinder


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## sunmukh (Oct 21, 2010)

parryrai said:


> Guru pyareo , Today is my very first day of getting into this discussion. I really enjoyed everyone's views. I agree to everybody. To me Satguru Nanak Dev ji's bani is so vast and great that it is impossible to come to any one solid meaning. To me it is a view from different angles. It depends on from which angle one is looking at it. The meaning changes every time you grow( physically or spiritualy). So I would say no body is wrong and don't stick to one translation. Explore yourself and try to get your own answer to bani. I know I may be wrong but it is may opinion . So aap sabh anjaan samajh ke maaf kar dena jee. Veechaar baut jarooree hai . Guru aap sabh te mehar bhareyaa hath rakhe. ikonkaar


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Parry Rai ji, I think you hit the nail on the head 
Satguru will lead anybody who searches for Him on a  path that is suited for that person.
All the person needs to do is open their heart to Satguru and search within the temple of the mind.

This thread has shown there are countless variations of understandings. There is no set standard, and to blindly accept someone elses understanding that your own mind struggles with is not the way to foster love and devotion for Satguru. Your mind will not surrender to Satguru in that way. You have to step down and down and down until you reach the level that you really and fully understand. It may even be simplest form of mantar, like Waheguru-Sat Naam. Do  not blindly accept, else the love will not develop. All that will happen if one does not understand is that there will be yet more wandering of the mind as it looks in every nook and cranny, trying to make sense of somebody elses understanding. All that Guru ji requests in return for His boundless gifts is devotion to Him. He does not need elaborate, complex, thesis written in praise to Him like Vedas, no recitals, no deep studies, no deep meditation, no bathing, no nonsense really. He requests very simple constant consciousness of Him built on love for Him instead of attempts of  self-gratification of worldly senses and wild goose-chases. In return He will provide complete peace of mind.

ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਿਟ ॥​kathnaa kathee na aavai tot.​There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.​ਕਿਥ ਕਿਥ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਿਟ ਕੋਿਟ ॥​kath kath kathee kotee kot kot.​Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.​ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਿਕ ਪਾਿਹ ॥​daydaa day laiday thak paahi.​The Great Giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving.​ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਿਰ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਿਹ ॥​jugaa jugantar khaahee khaahi.​Throughout the ages, consumers consume.​ਹਕੁ ਮੀ ਹਕੁ ਮੁ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹ ੁ ॥​hukmee hukam chalaa-ay raahu.​The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path.
 
Sat Sri Akal


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## Serjinder Singh (Oct 21, 2010)

In the first pauri of Japuji the line “Sochai soch na hovei jey sochai lakh var (ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥)”  the meaning of word ‘Sochai’ (ਸੋਚੈ) means ‘by ritually cleansing’ and word ‘Soch’ (ਸੋਚਿ ) means the act of ritual cleansing. These words could also mean ‘thinking’ and ‘act of thinking’ , and indeed we find these meanings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. However, the context of the ongoing theme helps us to decide the intended meaning.
Ritual cleansing as meaning of word Soch or Sochai in Sri Guru Granth Sahib appears at the following instances also.
page 59
‘we cannot find Hari (God) without devotion and love’
ਕਾਇਆ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥
page 265
‘(You) carry on ritually cleansing (yourself however,) the filth defiling the mind does not go away (merely) by cleansing the body’
ਸੋਚ ਕਰੈ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਤਨ ਤੇ ਜਾਤਿ ॥
page 495
‘(you) roamed the entire globe ritually bathing on the sixty eight places of pilgrimage. You make it a point to ritually keep yourself clean day and night, however, without a satgur (true teacher) you are all the time in the dark.
ਅਠਸਠਿ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਏ ਧਰ ਸਾਰੀ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਸੋਚ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅੰਧਿਆਰੀ
page 595
‘Set up your life span as the shop and the ‘true name’ as the stock to sell. Make your  cleansed consciousness as the containers (bhandsaal) and keep (the stock) in it.
ਹਾਣੁ ਹਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਜਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਥੁ ॥ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੋਚ ਕਰਿ ਭਾਂਡਸਾਲ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਰਖੁ ॥
page 905
Within your mind you have the filth filling it, however, you carry on roaming and bathing at the pilgrimage places. If mind is not cleansed what use is indulging in ritually cleansing your body. 
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਤੀਰਥ ਭਰਮੀਜੈ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਚਾ ਕਿਆ ਸੋਚ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
page 1266
O my Lord Hari, I have preapared foods, sweets  and preparations of various kinds. I have purified the ritually cleansed the kitchen (paksaal, read my mind), now please begin taking the meal.
ਅਨਿਕ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਭੋਜਨ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਏ ਬਹੁ ਬਿੰਜਨ ਮਿਸਟਾਏ ॥ ਕਰੀ ਪਾਕਸਾਲ ਸੋਚ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰਾ 
 ਹੁਣਿ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਏ ॥
Humbly 
Serjinder Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 21, 2010)

Sahni Ji..you are absolutley right..the word THAAK is...SETTLE DOWN...QUIETEN DOWN..as in Thaak haar ke beth giyah..after all the Running around endlessly..one gets tired out and settles down...same for the Mann...it WILL run for all its worth..BUT will eventually settle down and rest..IF Gurparsaad is realised.


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## harbax singh (Oct 21, 2010)

VEER JI,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji Ki Fateh.

Oone Translates it as rityal purity and other translates it as Thinking. However, both converge at one point ie. The Akaal Purkh is not bound by (Keeping Purity or Thougths).

If any other holi thinker translates in other any way with same convergence point then bhai sahib ji, all are right.

On the other hand, as the pankti (tukk) ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ vish  'Lakh Vaar' ik ginti suchak shabad hai, jo asin soch vaste varton kar sakde han, sucham vaste nahin. Is lai jo Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa Ji di viakhya ess pankti lai tukvin hae.

Daas di eh apni soch hai. Bhull chook muaf karniji.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji Ki Fateh.

HARBAX SINGH.


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## Naam (Oct 21, 2010)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki feath, veer Harbax singh ji, with due respect i agree we some of your thoughts,
it is the line ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ  the words have to be discussed and the meanings MUST be taken from another part from the  guru granth ji. we cannot explain these words from OUR MINDLY THOUGHTS 
there are many shabads from the gurbani that explain these ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ  words. the gurbani is big piece of jewellery with diamonds all around it, when carefully looked at we will find the answers, MINDLY THOUGHTS CANNOT BE TAKEN,
The question is HOW to meet with god, all mankind with this thought have been DOING things in order to complete this mission, when guru nanak came on this earth he looks the bamuns and see's the things they are up to( with sikhisum is doing now) this cleary defines one of the thing we do " socha eh na akieh bahan ja pinda tuoe"
you are not ਸੋਚਿ  even if you take a bath ...you may have a  clean body but your "MUN" is not clean.
the whole point is How to be come clean ??? "MUN saf" which is what matters.
guru gobind singh ji is saying the same thing." nath ferio sath sumondar lok gaeo parlok gaveo" 
please vist this website and you will find lots here which i happen to cross
www.sabdavartara.org.

humble servant.


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## japjisahib04 (Oct 21, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Sahni Ji..you are absolutley right..the word THAAK is...SETTLE DOWN...QUIETEN DOWN..as in Thaak haar ke beth giyah..after all the Running around endlessly..one gets tired out and settles down...same for the Mann...it WILL run for all its worth..BUT will eventually settle down and rest..IF Gurparsaad is realised.


 Giani Ji,
Similarly most of the scholars have not done justice with the following pankti of Fareed Ji bearing the word 'thak', '‘ਚਲਿ ਚਲਿ ਗਈਆਂ ਪੰਖੀਆਂ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਵਸਾਏ ਤਲ ॥ਫਰੀਦਾ ਸਰੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਭੀ ਚਲਸੀ ਥਕੇ ਕਵਲ ਇਕਲ ॥੬੬॥'  Fareed, the overflowing pool shall also pass away, and only the lotus flowers shall remain. Though this sabd is written in optimism but interpetaiton of this pankti is done by almost all the scholar in pessimism.  Even if a child is told that everything will perish then he will ask in that case shall I study or not. If we read gurbani from this angle then we will interprete it wrong. The positive interpretation will only come when one is blessed with the gems of divine sabd after conquering the vikars and this is what bhagat farid is trying is project in this pankti.

Best regards
sahni mohinder


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## sunmukh (Oct 21, 2010)

Rupinder.Singh said:


> In my opinon, somewhere in back of our minds we are fearful. We dont want to believe, we dont want
> 
> to accept, we want to oppose, we want to be distinct, we want to stand out and we want others to
> 
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

I think this is the very reason why there are so many religions, sects, subsects etc, all proclaiming knowledge,  as spoken of by Guru Nanak Dev ji in pauri 3 of Jap ji Sahib beginning

"ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਤਾਣੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਿਕਸੈ ਤਾਣੁ ॥​gaavai ko taan hovai kisai taan.​Some sing of His Power-who has that Power?​ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਦਾਿਤ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥​gaavai ko daat jaanai neesaan.​Some sing of His Gifts, and know His Sign and Insignia."

For the same reason, there is his proclamation that he is neither Hindoo, or Mussalman. SGGS ji  urges his disciples to become Sikhs of the Guru with a view to  losing their own identity and merging their own with that of Satguru (found within the temple of the mind). Until there is surrender to Satguru, thus allowing Satguru to take charge and be responsible for all our affairs, (as in Anand Sahib), we will retain self-identity, with concomitant drawbacks. One has to consider whether one wishes to do this. Only a few will even make the attempt to keep on accepting others' views could be of equal or greater merit than their own, or at the least listen/read attentively with a view to learning something new, without getting passionate and wishing to expressing their own, louder than others.  In this way people cannot lose their sense of duality. Until then we will keep on projecting our own opinions. It is an inevitable consequence of a strong self-identity, which eventually results in side-effects such as anger, jealousy, hate, abuse and possibly even violence. A young child does not have this problem - it is keen to learn from its respected parents, that it places all trust in. The child loves the parent and the parent loves the child. However once the ego has developed, and the child does not get quite it's way, then problems begin to arise and develop. The parent struggles and struggles to impart lessons the way it thinks, and the child with a different line of thought resents the arduous lessons it is put through. Eventually there is too much to bear and a split occurs. Both are left unhappy. 

Guru ji requests us to rebuild that intiial relationship - we are the young children of Satguru who is our parent-  both father and mother. We are to put all trust in Satguru, the parent. Our own ego is to dissolve, to be replaced with that of our innate but much wiser, mature, truthful,  virtuous Satguru, the seed left by the Almighty Lord.   In that way there is merger of thought with no internal conflicts, two way love, and continuous happiness. Each time we please Satguru, He rewards us by showing His pleasure, which makes us even more pleased. It becomes a self-developing cycle of increasing happiness. Satguru dwells in the mind, but external events lead us astray, whether they are "good" or "bad". We look outside again and again, but the parent is everpresent in the home of the body-village, so very near. 

I very much liked the way you spoke of use of poetry. 
Thank you

Sat Sri Akal


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## Michel de Lachine (Oct 21, 2010)

Sat Sri Akal,

I am French and I have been very implicate in the Community and of Course the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


About 25yrs ago I had problem with this sentence in translated in French.


I  felt well in translating it as a state of virginity from outer elements, which then, if I understand properly grant Grace of Hukam


Hope it helps


Michel


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 21, 2010)

Harbax Singh Ji..
You are right that the words .."Lakh Vaar" is Gintee suchak....and is  avery common muhavaraa or idiom in Punjabi. A mother will say...Mein taenu LAKH VAAR kiha ke eh kaam na kar par tuun hatiah nee....or a teacher will say..I have told you a LAKH VAAR to not come late to school but you still come late..etc.

2. What is the REALITY....in Hinduism there were NOT just one or two BATHING TEERATHS....BUT 68 !! and Bathing at EACH and EVERYONE of these 68 was compulsory..( SIKHS TODAY have also created as many..if NOT more Bathing SAROVARS..and continue to INDULGE in such actions as..Panj Khoohaan da Paanee..Sant Babas off and on publicly go to places in Pakistan and bring abck holy watrs from Panja Sahib..etc etc or Baba farid Jis village well. or Bhai mardanas Jis well or such and such...and MIX these waters into some other Sarovars..presumably to REINFORCE/STRENGTHEN the original or rceiving Sarovar water !!!) Also every 12 Years a HUGE MELA was held at KUMBH TIME at HARDWAAR where MILLIONS made a compulsory journey to bathe...Ganga Bathing was COMPULSORY..even for the DEAD..ashes had to be immersed into the Ganga....It was thought very fortunate to DIE near the Gnaga..Kabir ji purposely wennt FAR AWAY from GANGA to DIE to prove this FUTILE PHILOSOPHY as NONSENSE..at every EXCUSE...the Brahmin/Pandit/Prohit would DEMAND "GANGA JAL" (  failing that cow URINE would do the same job !!) to PURIFY...SUCHAM..this and that.

3. AT HUNDREDS of places in the SGGS.."RITUALISED BATHING" as a means to attain the CREATOR is shown as FUTILE..usless and even IDIOTIC....Gurbani tells us that IF Bathing attains the Creator then the FROGS and FISHES and WATER INHABITING CREATURES win HANDS DOWN..becasue the Human cannot possibly OUT-BATHE them..eve if he/she bathes a LAKH VAAR !!

..BOTTOM LINE.....SEARCH WITHIN...THE SGGS.....for answers to all riddles..and the answer is THERE.  Search 'elsewhere"....failure is end result. BATHING was and STILL IS...one of the easiest thought methods to attain "union with the Creator"...and he entire SGGS DENIES THIS ......LAKH VAAR !!!cheerleader


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## pali67 (Oct 22, 2010)

mcloed is right.


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## Balkar Singh (Oct 22, 2010)

Yes Khalsa Jio, 
          The condemning of the ritual bathing is the right meaning of this verse.


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## Naam (Oct 22, 2010)

Great somebody finally agrees withe 
There more then one " karm" the Sikhs are doing but I guess one worst one is when in our own ardass they have add " guru sahabi da Sikha nu Sri amrit sahib da darshun eshnan" we they say infront of the Granth ji the total opposite to it's teaching 
This is mucking the principles of the Granth ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 22, 2010)

Naam said:


> Great somebody finally agrees withe
> There more then one " karm" the Sikhs are doing but I guess one worst one is when in our own ardass they have add " guru sahabi da Sikha nu Sri amrit sahib da darshun eshnan" we they say infront of the Granth ji the total opposite to it's teaching
> This is mucking the principles of the Granth ji



EXACTLY and so aptly put Naam ji...
And not only vis a vis " sucham bathing in sarovars"...also
WHEN Singhs Sing AARTEE to SGGS..bring thals and lamps and throw flowers on SGGS...and what the SHABADS say is DIRECTLY OPPOSITE to the actions of these aartee singers....akin to Slapping a persons FACE in Public repeatedly and proclaiming..WE LOVE YOU..we love you so much....OH Guru Ji we really LOVE YOU...
SO many other Karamkaands singhs do in Gurdwara right in front of SGGS..which the GURBANI CONDEMNS OUTRIGHT and so clearly !!!When will we ever learn ?? if we do...


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## Naam (Oct 22, 2010)

Thank you please keep these furms alive with gurus message 
As this is what sikhi is lacking and that is why we have so much karm kand
God bless you 
Please go here as I did 
Www. Sabadvartara.org


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 22, 2010)

Naam said:


> Great somebody finally agrees withe
> There more then one " karm" the Sikhs are doing but I guess one worst one is when in our own ardass they have add " guru sahabi da Sikha nu Sri amrit sahib da darshun eshnan" we they say infront of the Granth ji the total opposite to it's teaching
> This is mucking the principles of the Granth ji




Naam ji,

Guru Fateh and well said.

Please check  some  past threads regarding Ardaas on this forum and share your thoughts with us. The threads that talk about Sikhi never grow old. They are like the Nitnem and should not be forgotten to collect dust.

Your insights will revive these threads and will also help others who have not read them. And may be what some of us who have posted  in these threads may see it through a different light and share that experience with the Sadh Sangat because Sikhi is all about learning,unlearning and relearning daily. If this were not the case then doing Nitnem would be one more futile ritual.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Naam (Oct 22, 2010)

Tejwant ji 
Thanks for the feed back I will check these as soon as possible but just to touch on nitnam you are right it is another karm kand IF you JUST read it foe the sake 
If you read it to find the way to god then you will gain overtime you read the bani weather it be the jap bani or any other shabad
In the granth more then 23 lines condem the "just reading" of gurbani because the pandths did this and all the teachings are against this karm kand just on example you can find the rest 
Just one humble request do you refer the sangth in the guruthwaras as sad sangth it is just "sangth" there is a di

"path parao or vadth vicharo nival phojagum satha panch Jana saao na chotko maa keha KARM anamka
This salad is by mala 5 
Just one humble request ...do not refer the sangth in the guruthwaras as sad sangth it is "justs sangth" there is a difference between Sad Sangth and sangth


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## amarjit chahal (Oct 22, 2010)

My humble view about the line is as under.

  To understand the meaning of this line properly we have to look at the whole stanza composed by Guru Nanak in the very beginning of Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS). The primary question before the Indian men of religion was how to achieve oneness with the almighty creator. Guru Nanak raises the question how to obliterate the wall of falsehood between man and the creator and how to be truthful and have an ethical living.

*ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥*

Now various methods were suggested to achieve that goal. One of them was to make oneself clean by bathing at sacred places like particular rivers or some particular stations and places of pilgrimage. Guru Nanak condemns that. He says one’s mind does not become clean even by performing ablutions to cleanse the body hundreds of thousands of time. 

*ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
* 
This interpretation is further confirmed by the context. The Guru in the next couple of lines refers to other methods propagated by the traditional religion to achieve purity and also rejects them.

The translation offered by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and several others on that line is plainly not the correct one. They translate ਸੋਚੈ as the act of thinking which is not the real meaning here. Here ਸੋਚੈ means the process of cleansing or ablution. The translation by Dr. McLeod, in this sense is nearer the correct meaning, but his allusion to ‘being known through ritual purity’ is again beyond the mark as ‘being known’ is not the object being referred to here by Guru Nanak.


  Thanks!
  Amarjit s. chahal


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## hpsarna (Oct 22, 2010)

the fomer explnation is the correct one as the word soch comes from sanskrit word suchita meaning purity and the word soch has been used in Shri Guru Granth Sahib At Many other place with same meaning


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## amarjit chahal (Oct 22, 2010)

Thank to mr. aman singh, spnadmin and tejwant singh for appreciation.
And to mr.spsarna
amarjit chahal


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## Naam (Oct 25, 2010)

I would like to recomend this movie which is based on exactly on what each religion is doing  it is called " The Message"
You will see how the "maca" is ruled be the greedy so called religious leader just the our guruthwaras are lead by these pujari tola 
I would love to here commits on this


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## yayati (Oct 26, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> Ishna Ji ,
> Here is the link to my blog which is exact translation of Guru Granth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh Ji in English which will help you have clear idea of the Shabad . Here I agree wholeheartedly with Tejwant Ji that Sant Singh khalsa translation is actually the biggest mistranslation of Gurbani online .
> 
> http://dalbirk.blogspot.com/2010/01/japu-ji-sahib.html
> ...


yayati Ji, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji Ki Fateh!! 
Editorial (by SPN'er Ishna): Here's a question from the first line after Mul Mantar: 
ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār. 
The English translation by H. McLeod (and another I have but don't have the author with me) translates the above as: 
"Never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times." 
Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and the majority of other translations I've seen translate it like this: 
"By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times." 
So my questions is: which translation is right? And how can there be such discrepancy between translations? 

*Ishna ji,

Guru fateh*
*Madan g gandhi in his  close translation of this Pauri  interpreted soc**ẖ** as thinking though suggested the** other meaning too i.e. ritual cleansing in poetic rendering and annotation. This is evident from the following extract from the book Guru Nanak's Japuji:The Celestial Ladder*

*The extract*



*first step*​*　*​1. By thinking He cannot be known even if we may think of Him a million times.
2. By practice of silence, even to the point of total self-immersion, we may not attain the State of No-mind or know Him.
3. Un-appeased be our hunger for Truth even if we were to acquire innumerable worlds.
4. Vain be millions of man-made devices or items of worldly wisdom, for none of them goes with us to the hereafter.
5. How then can we become the True One? How the veil of falsehood can be rent apart?
6. Only by walking in the Light of His Order-Will.
7. O Nanak, know ye, it is inscribed within everyone’s being.


​*Poetic Rendering*​​Neither through intellect​Nor wisdom, nor wealth​Norausterities,nor silence​Can ever be peace achieved​Or God realized!​Try youmay​A hundred thousand time,!​Nor through rituals​Purity is attained ​Even if one were to cleanse​A hundred thousand time​Wealthloads of possessions ​Sate not one’s hunger for Truth​Of countless clever devices​Not even one accompanies​To avail in the hereafter​Obedience to the Divine Will​Only holds the key, says Nanak.​ 
*Annotation*​ 
*Soche Soch Na Hovai Je Sochi Lakh Var *
*Soch *in the Bani implies both thinking or contemplation and cleansing or purificatory rituals including Yajnas, penances, ablutions, bathing at Holy Places of Pilgrimages. One meaning is "Not by thought alone can He be known, though one think, a hundred thousand time" and the other is "Not by ritual purification can the purity be attained, even if one were to cleanse a hundred thousand times."
*Chupai chup na hovaee, je laae rehaa liv-taar *
Silence, long and deep, as practised by ascetics called Munis for whom prolonged silence is a way of spiritual discipline, of conserving energy so essential for spiritual advancement. 
*Bhukhiaa bhukh na utree, je bannaa pureeaa bhaar. *
Hunger for materialistic pursuits knows no satiety 
*Sahas siaanpaa lakh hohe,ta ik Na chalai naal. *
Flights of Intellect, various clever devices and stratagems avail one not in the hereafter.


Clarifying this query from the traslator eminent scholar Late Mohan Singh Diwana in his foreword to The Celestial LADDER wrote IN 1980 as under:

*"Let me here emphasis that I have achieved anything I have achieved is not by soche i.e. by thinking again and again over the knotty points of the Japu-it is only by living Japu more intensely i.e. ......by listening to its recitation by myself attentively and constantly praying for the flow of Hazre-karam or Nazar and Karam into me. Incidentally there is no such verb in Panjabi as     *socẖ,*             to be clean, to be pure. Panjabi has only two words of Sanskrit origin and which are used with the auxiliary verbs or the Panjabi never uses the word. It will make no sense to maintain that  Guru Nanak began his flight of the unknown by declaring , you cannot clean your body by cleansing it with water a hundred thousand times. No. His visit to the palace of God the formless was--it was pronouncement, it was an annunciation: "However much  and repeatedly you may think analytically and synthetically about God you cannot comprehend Him. You can apprehend Him intuitively. You can know the unknowable through  the grace of the Guru. As God himself is the Guru of the Nanak so it was God's grace that makes Nanak see the unseeable and hear the unhearable. Thereby Nanak finally put the lid on all the philosophical clay pots that were boiling at sun temperature by uttering these three lines of verse. *
*I.       Only he can know the exalted Lord who is as exalted as the Lord          Himself. *
*II.      The Lord can be great or is small as He Likes.*
*III.    Only He can and does know himself.*

*Guru Nanak Dev does debunk all philosophies, all religions, all sciences, all mysteries, all ethics, absolute monarchy etc. so for as our contact with the truth and the truth and the true and our efforts for attaining to that contact are concerned. Nanak shifts the whole burden from the seeker to the sought. At four places in four single verses he repeats that it is the structure and function of divinity to look down-wards at his creation, see it, call it good, enjoy it and prosper it. He does that again and again " He is never tired of doing it, He blesses his creation, and believe it or not, Lo! He is happy to see it, contemplate it, envelop it with his kind glance, with his infinity of gifts. Thus our hope lies not in our concepts and our practices and our offerings and our penances and our works but only in the joy that comes to HIM from perfecting his creatures with his own perfections. He chooses and to the chosen one the call comes. They feel the presence which is beyond the Mahasunya. People talk so lightly of God, of God with attributes, of God without attributes, of the formless without void, of the supreme void, of the self attained , of self generating. This is all an exercise, perhaps a vacuous exercise in relativating the absolute or absolutising the relative. In the literal sense of the word concept, no concept possible of the truth , of the ture one, the true court, the true king of kings, of the realm of true one, of the permanent abode of the true one, of the attributes that radiate from One Who has become the Lord of true Love. Nor is any concept possible as the means of truth realisation.  We can't even conceive what divine sight or vision  is, what Mukti is, what grace is, we   always vitiate our conceptual thinking vis-a-vis God, the only One the Whole , the Full, the Perfect, the Alone by contaminating our thinking process through import or use of time-space cause or even their opposites. No that is not this, that is not this, even if you  say he is all that is, and all that is not, will not suffice. So the 'poor humble bard 'at least in 30 stanzas out of 38  almost tires himself by repeating : X has not found him, Y has not described him, Z has not circumscribed him, A has not seen Him, B has not tasted HIM, C has not blended with him. *
*          Finally the Guru says : they go up  the ladder beyond the Sunn and Maha Sunn. Who goes ? who comes back ? "*



*In my humble opinion: *
*No one can translate or transcreate*​*the Revealed Word which is Immaculate,*​*Its rhythm intricate, Its poetry sublime,*​*None can recreate Its mystique divine.*​​*Gurfateh, *
*yayati*


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## spnadmin (Oct 26, 2010)

The thanks button has been temporarily disabled because of technical problems. Thank you yayati for your contribution. Would you be kind enough to give a url or web address for the essay you have posted?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 26, 2010)

SPNADMIN,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
This is regarding SOUCHAE SOUCHi Na HOWAi JE SOUCHI LAKH WAAR

In fact if we are familiar with the whole of SGGS Ji we should be able to get the more correct meaning of the above line which is the very starting line of JAPJi .
We must look at the grammers of the words and then give a meanings to them.The three words in the line SOUCHAE,SOUCHi and SOUCHI are related to the prime word which is SOUCH.If we can get the meaning of this word then we will be able to clearly explain the correct meaning of the line.
The meaning of the word SOUCH is BATH{ a normal process of external cleaning} as this becomes clear from a line as

     SOUCH KARAE DINSU ARU RAATi
     MUN KI MAILU n TUN Te JAAT       pp265 Sukhmani Sahib

From above consideration the views presented by Shri TEJWANT SINGH JI are matching and correct.
Thus the word SOUSHAE is not at all related to the process of thinking.
Prakash S Baggai


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## spnadmin (Oct 26, 2010)

prakash s bagga ji

Thank you for your contribution also.


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## Naam (Oct 26, 2010)

Just a note on pro sahab Singhs transalation on 
"nir bho" the meaning is not without fear for any person as he has stated
Nir bho Is "Maya " god does not come in Maya 
As we are in Maya just as the line states nir bho narankar sach nam ....


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 26, 2010)

NAAM J
DIVINE GREETINGS,
Your views are very correct for the word NIRBHAu.This has been reffered for GUROO JOTi certainly not for any person.The word NIRBHAu is SINGULAR gramatcally this is equally important to understand.
With best Wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Naam (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks 
Just like the word " NIR VAAR" does not mean that god is without enmies, this is no great " ghun" 
It means god is without the five "kaam khroth lho mho hunkar  "


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 26, 2010)

NAAM Ji,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
Here I would differ with your meaning of the word.First of all the correct word is NIRVAIRu which is SINGULAR  by grammer .Therefore this word can not be a reference for five things as mentioned.
If we look at the whole words of the first line out of nine words the first seven words are SINULAR and eighth word GUR is PLURAL and the last word PRASAADi is VERB{PLURAL}.Therefore the meanings of the words should conform to the reference of Grammer of the words to get the correct meaning of various words.
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Naam (Oct 26, 2010)

Prakas ji these words of the gurubani CANNOT be translated with somebody "maath" 
The true meanings are to be searched within the gurbani from other shabads one example
"santh tumra Nirvaru ram nam ras mataa"
NIRVAu is also mentioned in another shabad " vari sungara "


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## findingmyway (Oct 26, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NAAM Ji,
> DIVINE GREETINGS,
> Here I would differ with your meaning of the word.First of all the correct word is NIRVAIRu which is SINGULAR  by grammer .Therefore this word can not be a reference for five things as mentioned.
> If we look at the whole words of the first line out of nine words the first seven words are SINULAR and eighth word GUR is PLURAL and the last word PRASAADi is VERB{PLURAL}.Therefore the meanings of the words should conform to the reference of Grammer of the words to get the correct meaning of various words.
> ...



the translation is enmity or ignorance. these words are without plural or singular so can apply to any number of enemies or any number of aspects of lack of knowledge. if i am mistaken in my translation, please correct me


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## findingmyway (Oct 26, 2010)

yayati said:


> *"Let me here emphasis that I have achieved anything I have achieved is not by soche i.e. by thinking again and again over the knotty points of the Japu-it is only by living Japu more intensely i.e. ......by listening to its recitation by myself attentively and constantly praying for the flow of Hazre-karam or Nazar and Karam into me. Incidentally there is no such verb in Panjabi as     *socẖ,*             to be clean, to be pure. Panjabi has only two words of Sanskrit origin and which are used with the auxiliary verbs or the Panjabi never uses the word. It will make no sense to maintain that  Guru Nanak began his flight of the unknown by declaring , you cannot clean your body by cleansing it with water a hundred thousand times. *



Dear yayati ji,
Thank you for sharing your very thoughtful essay. On www.searchgurbani.com the meaning of soch in the line under question is also thinking. However, 30 other quotes are given with teh same word and the translation is given as clean/cleanliness for many as thinking doesnt fit in so the verb soch for clean does exist. I have given the page numbers of a selection of these quotes with the translation from that website (I don't always agree with the English translation) so if anyone wants to look and comment further, I would love to hear your thoughts. This is a fantastic learning exercise. Is it possible that soch means both things so both concepts are tackled by Guru Ji in one go? :happykaur:

Ang 59 Line 4 Sri Raag: Guru Nanak Dev
 			ਕਾਇਆ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥
 			kaaeiaa soch n paaeeai bin har bhagath piaar ||
The body does not obtain purity without loving devotion to the Lord.

Ang 265 Line 17 Raag Gauri Sukhmanee: Guru Arjan Dev
 			ਸੋਚ ਕਰੈ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥
 			soch karai dhinas ar raath ||
You may practice cleansing day and night,


Ang 495 Line 12 Raag Goojree: Guru Arjan Dev
 			ਅਨਿਕ ਸੋਚ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅੰਧਿਆਰੀ ॥੩॥
 			anik soch karehi dhin raathee bin sathigur andhhiaaree ||3||
and performs all the rituals of purification day and night, still, without the True Guru, there is only darkness. ||3||


Ang 903 Line 3 Raag Raamkali: Guru Nanak Dev
 			ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
 			naavahu dhhovahu thilak charraavahu such vin soch n hoee ||6||
You may bathe and wash, and apply a ritualistic tilak mark to your  forehead, but without inner purity, there is no understanding. ||6||


Ang 905 Line 10 Raag Raamkali: Guru Nanak Dev
 			ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਚਾ ਕਿਆ ਸੋਚ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
 			man nehee soochaa kiaa soch kareejai ||
His mind is not pure, so what is the use of performing ritual cleansings?


Ang 1229 Line 15 Raag Sarang: Guru Arjan Dev
 			ਮਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਸੋਚ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਕਰਤ ॥
 			man anik soch pavithr karath ||
and purify your mind in various ways,


Ang 1266 Line 7 Raag Malar: Guru Arjan Dev
 			ਕਰੀ ਪਾਕਸਾਲ ਸੋਚ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਏ ॥੨॥
 			karee paakasaal soch pavithraa hun laavahu bhog har raaeae ||2||
I have made my kitchen pure and sacred. Now, O my Sovereign Lord King, please sample my food. ||2||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 26, 2010)

FINDINGMYWAYS
DIVINE GREETINGS,
If we are convinced that there is no grammer of Gurbaani language then any interpretation is fully justified.But if we feel that there is definite pattern of Grammer in the Gurbaani language then the situation is different.
Any how I am not aware if there can be any language without grammer particular reference of SGGS ji.I find that even QuRAN language has definite pattern of Grammer .You may find a special time in Q TV  programme exclusive devoted to the Grammer of QURAN language.I find people in Q TV programme taking positive view of such programme.
This is just for your information only
with best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 26, 2010)

NAAM Ji.
Divine Greetings,
I would request to mention the reference Page No of SGGS ji about your quote unabling me to go thru this,
With thanks
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 26, 2010)

We have to look at the word and how its spellt.......is it SOCH..or SO(i)CH or SOCH(u)....then we will see the difference. Gurbani uses such Gramattical MARKERS for clarity...and we have to use them for the purpose they are there...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 27, 2010)

GIANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji
WAHi GUROO Ji Ka Khalsa
WAHi GUROO Ji Ki Fateh
I fully appreciate your views when making meanings of Gurbaani words. A proper knowledge of Gurbaani words can only be the guidance for knowing the correct meaning of Gurbaani.
With regards
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 27, 2010)

Parkash Singh bagga Ji, Gurfateh.

Yes Ji..Gurbani is..agaadh bodh...as deep as the ocean...its written in a script..it has words humans use..its message is Divine.. its on paper ( other mediums now)..the langauge vocabulary semantics etc part cna be studied..the divine part can only be experienced...just as the depths of the oceans can be accessed as deep as one can go..surface anyone can delve in (BUT knowledge of SWIMMING is a MUST..so is KNOWLEDGE of GURMUKHI/PUNJABI a MUST !!..and just as one can "swim" with aids...one can also learn from TRANSLATIONS !!...) then an experienced swimmer can go deeper..at certian depths one needs breathing aids..yet deeper submarines..etc etc..
GURBANI is also something like that...and it feels GOOD..real GOOD...and its said...a MUTE cannot say out loud how good the sweetmeats he just ate...we all are MUTES wheere Gurbani experiences are involved...each has his own stage of MUTENESS !!
Thank you for a meaningful discussion...sincerely Jarnail


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## Naam (Oct 27, 2010)

Very nice gyani ji we all cam learn /read / sing the gurbani BUT there are only a few that have the divine expreance which ONLY comes through NAAM abass which is what we all need to do the most


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## Naam (Oct 27, 2010)

Parkash ji I am only a humble servant of the lord and hope one day the lord will except me as a servant and that he keeps me as a servant  
The quote is from Asa di var " Nirv BHO NARUNK KAR SAC NAAM JA KA SGAL JAHAN"
NIRBO.....BO NA NAHI MAYA VICH
If you look at the other pori in the asa di var it gives example of how Maya captures us 
Kolo Charka chaki chak thal varola latoo mathania ............ 
All the things spin round and round but this is how MAYA is 
God does NOT Spin in this MAYA


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 27, 2010)

DIWALI is around the corner...MILLIONS of SIKHS will be happily SPINNING on the Merry Go Round of MAYA !!! Be aware....SIKHS DONT WORSHIP MAYA !!!

2. Naam ji..to my tuchh understanding..Naam Abhiyaas is PRACTISE of Naam to change our daily lives....so we SHINE from WITHIN with the Raang of Naam...:blueturban::happysingh:


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## jasi (Oct 27, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

*Sochai soch na huvia ,je soche lakh var 

ritual purifications though performed million time may not purify man's soul

chupe chup na hovia ,je laaia raha liv tar
even though one be silent and remain absorbed,silence of mind is not obtained

bhukihan bhukh na utree,ja banna purrea bhar

hunger of hungry who crave more and more is not appeased not,even if they posses the goods
of entire world

sehas siannppa lakh hoia ta ek na chalai nal
Man may posses thousands and millions of wits,shall not accompany to self to next world.

kiv sachiarra hovia kiv koorre tute paal

how can be true  and how can this screen of untruthful be demolished


hukam rajai chalnna Nanak likhia nal 1
Sat Guru Nanak says that truth is realized through obedience to his order and will.*

Jaspi





Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> We have to look at the word and how its spellt.......is it SOCH..or SO(i)CH or SOCH(u)....then we will see the difference. Gurbani uses such Gramattical MARKERS for clarity...and we have to use them for the purpose they are there...


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## Naam (Oct 27, 2010)

Gyani ji you are 100% right MAYA is around us and yes we do need tp partice this as satgurus "Hokam" guru sate guru KA Jo sikh akahe so bhal ka ottaw har naam dhavaa......"
We have jumpped the gun as they say in English instead of obeying our guru we have munmath ruling today gurubani is an ocean granted some shabads are easy to understand but understanding them from the gurus point is a different "ranng"ONLY true meanings can be attained this way not to forget it is an ocean the higher in spritial we are the deeper we understand thus the need on naam
Abass first 

Humble servant


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## Naam (Oct 27, 2010)

I found it helpfully www. Sabadvartara.org


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## charanjit (Oct 31, 2010)

Ishna, 

It appears to me that you have firstly accepted the translations of others, and having missed on that occasion, you ask of others the meaning of the words, and again you miss, you accept their authority and their understanding, and have none of your own. 

*Debate issues not personalities.*

*Comments that were quite rude have been deleted. Please debate issues and refrain from demeaning members who ask questions. The gurmat way is through discussion and "parchar" and not through acting as an independent authority. The translations and opinions discussed so far have in many cases been backed up with the work of scholars who have dedicated lifetimes to teaching the panth. Their seva is something to celebrate, not denigrate. Thank you.
*
If ever there was a revolutionary it may have been Nanak. (Referring to him as Nanak I expect that creates within you some resentment and contempt for this writer - why should such a thing occur?? Nanak is only a word, and the word is not the thing, yet for these words that you hold so dear to yourselves, you are willing to defend and fight for - Nanak is not the thing). 

He was a revolutionary in that he negated all that he knew. His faith, perhaps Hinduism, the history of Islam in India, the family the wife the motehr the father. And only by ridding himself of everything perhaps he found something. 

However, you and I will never come across, what Nanak may have come across. You are here stuck in words, we are stuck in words, translation and therefore shall never experience. From the word we have a certain reaction, and create an image, this image comes only from our experience, this image is created by thinking and thought. Your thought is based on your experience, everything that you think, relates back to what you know, and then is translated. Just as when you say the words "Waheguru" - along comes your imagination, you repeat those words and create within yourself a longing to be reunited with the source from which you believe you came, however your thinking and your experience is limited. By the repitition of the words Waheguru, all you are doing is creating an experience and then say how wonderful that was...you simply fool yourself. 

Nanak on the other hand was a revolutionary. He put aside all that he knew. 

Personally I feel that he was talking about thinking, and thought, that thought is limited and to see anything new, the old must be put aside. 

If Nanak was around at the present, if he is any much of that revolutionary, he too would put aside this so called Sikhism that you people have created, in order to find the real. 

Sochai soch na hovee is the greatest part of the Jap Ji - in my opinion. As this goes to the crux of everything. To me he seems to be saying that you may read all this prayer, however you will translate it according to your experience and thinking/thought, and soon as you do that everything goes out of the window, all your endeavours, all your repititions of this silly word Vaheguru. I can assure you that you can create the same pleasure from the repitition of the word Coca Cola as that of Vaheguru - it is all your mind. 

I generally write this with some hesitation, as this will certainly offend people and create greater confusion. I reconsider whether to post this, but I think I will. My actions today have been a result of my thinking, and having acted according to my reactions, which are caused by thinking, and thinking will always be limited, and hence this will cause some people upset. 

The general gist is find out for yourself, Nanak did. If you now follow him, I mean supposedly follow him according to your reading, your knowledge he can only lead you to his truth, another man's truth is not truth.

Take care, 

Charanjit


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## findingmyway (Oct 31, 2010)

charanjit said:


> It appears to me that you have firstly accepted the translations of others, and having missed on that occasion, you ask of others the meaning of the words, and again you miss, you accept their authority and their understanding, and have none of your own. They themselves have no understanding, yet you yourself are blind and decide to be lead by the blind.


 
Your words are unnecessarily harsh. Without looking at different translations whether they be in English, Panjabi or another language, it is difficult to come to your own understanding. I don't think anyone here has taken anything at face value and that is the beauty if having this discussion. Hearing different points of view, helps someone with understanding and that approach should be encourraged not ridiculed. You have also added your opinion so are you saying you are an authority? Who can decide who is blind and who has understanding? We can only claim our own understanding, to claim more is egotostical. To ridicule others for their quest for understanding is unfair.
 



> The general gist is find out for yourself, Nanak did. If you now follow him, I mean supposedly follow him according to your reading, your knowledge he can only lead you to his truth, another man's truth is not truth.



There is a universal truth. How can truth change for different people? The Guru Granth Sahib Ji leads us to that truth and Guru Nanak Dev Ji started that process. Taking guidance from the Guru will allow someone to 'find out for themself' as folllowing the Guru is not easy and requires much thought and change in behaviour.

I'm sorry if I have misunderstood what you are trying to say.


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## spnadmin (Oct 31, 2010)

*To the disgruntled

Every now an then it is important to remember that the purpose of any forum is discussion. Discussion is impossible without words. Communication is impossible without sharing ideas, experiences, and opinions that are bridged through the use of words. This holds true whether Sochai soch na hovee refers to thought or to purity. And until we have perfected the art of communicating without words, discussion will suffice.

So please honor the right of every forum member to ask questions and seek the opinions of others. It is pretentious to deny that right to someone else. Of course free expression is also limited by the need to observe forum etiquette. Debate issues not personalities. spnadmin*


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## Ishna (Oct 31, 2010)

It is difficult for me to respond without getting personal so I'll just keep my fingers off the keys.

Suffice it to say that when words are used to claim words are useless, I fail to understand the logic.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 1, 2010)

Ishna said:


> It is difficult for me to respond without getting personal so I'll just keep my fingers off the keys.
> 
> Suffice it to say that when words are used to claim words are useless, I fail to understand the logic.



Ishna Ji..
It can be done..takes lots of paitience and practice...
and about words used to defame words...well some of us stand in front of the mirror and blame the mirror for the ugly "image" we see !! words are the mirror of our soul....Mitthat neevven Nanaka gunn chnagiyaahn tatt....Nanak LOVES the sweet tongued humility..its the Basic Gunn underlying all the GOOD !! A true quality of a SANT/BRAHMGYANI is never  harsh word..never a single grunt/furrow on forehead..red eye..anger..not the slightest hint of annoyance...always sweet humble..lower than the lowest...it sure takes a lot of patience sehaj and practise..thats why the SGGS is 1429 pages long and not shorter...


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## jasi (Nov 1, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

I think when any Shabad or Shabds are spoken  by our tongue wrong or right is the results of our struggle inside our mind which each of us justify by core thoughts residing in our sub-conscious by negative or positive perceptions our daily life style living according to Sikhism preachings.

It is clearly understood that one should practice what is being preached.

When, we all watch  practices of our life styles according to Sikhism in our family and places of worships are not in coordination with Guru's ji preachings , a negative perceptions is born by growing generations.

Guru Ji taught us to be practical in our life style not by *BLIND FAITH *. First develop understanding about WAHEGURU BY UNDERSTANDING  GURBANI WHICH FURTHER LEADS US TO ULTIMATE TRUTH.

Gurbani is WONDROUS path to realize the TRUTH as per perching of  our Gurus by understanding the SHABADs blessed us by our gurus.

Boles (words) spoken in sweeten tone can make a huge differences in interacting with each other which leads us to better understandings.Translations by many learned scholars are in place after so much time spent for their research to understand the SHABAD in Gurbani to introduce their thoughts without any criticism to the previous translations done.

Mutual respect by respecting  each others ideas without getting offended hasa made this forum a wonderful stage to exchange our views by avoiding all kinds of egoism.

One's negative thinking could be good for him and others good thinking can be negative for others. 

That is the way our world exist to exchange our views but TRUTH will never change.

Patience to hear opponents views with positive understanding are often leads to ultimate TRUTH. 

Jaspi.


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## kds1980 (Nov 1, 2010)

> A true quality of a SANT/BRAHMGYANI is never harsh word..never a single grunt/furrow on forehead..red eye..anger..not the slightest hint of annoyance...always sweet humble..lower than the lowest...it sure takes a lot of patience sehaj and practise..thats why the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is 1429 pages long and not shorter...



Well The other side of story That it is also an art used by very clever persons.They show their one face to society ,but there other personality is quite different


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## jasi (Nov 1, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

 Positive perceptions bring wondrous results than negative perceptions.Each person when they expressed their feelings it is  wrong or right are the real perceptions they carry.

But TRUTH remains intact.

Jaspi


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## anon (Sep 15, 2013)

Hey, i'm just starting to read Jap Ji Sahib and i'm using the website SriGranth.org which i'm sure you are no doubt familiar with, I am not relying on the textual translations given beneath each line, instead i'm trying to make a list of individual words on the website which have been translated, (you can do this by hovering the words over the gurmukhi text), i then write that words and the translation in order to create my own personal vocabulary list, however recently i have become slightly worried that this effort is in vein, as i am starting to get the feeling that perhaps SriGranth.org's translation of individual words is perhaps not so reliable. I was wondering if anyone would vouch for the relibility of this method that I am using and could perhaps propose a different method for getting a good understanding of the Gurmukhi words in the JapJi Sahib.

Thanks


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## findingmyway (Sep 16, 2013)

Anon ji,
I use the word approach in Shabad of the week in order to encourage more participation. However, this approach will only ever take you so far. Gurbani is poetry, so the meaning is much more than the sum of the words. You need to bear this in mind. Also if you get stuck, referring to another shabad/passage can help you understand better. It is good to look at the words and grammar, but also don't forget context or the bigger picture, especially when understanding metaphors. Feel free to share your learning to we can all learn together :icecreamkaur:


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## Ishna (Sep 16, 2013)

Gurfateh ji

Yes, www.srigranth.org is a great site for learning about Gurbani! Good choice to start there.

I commend your determination for the project. I'm not sure how much you know about the Gurmukhi (script Gurbani is written in). The language in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (classical Punjabi with a mix of many other languages) is highly inflected and has many different cases for words.

For example in English it gets about as complicated as:
Swim
Swims
Swimming
Swam
Ishna
Ishna's
boy
boy's
boys'

I'd speculate that in English our most highly inflected words are verbs, and in the above list there are 4 examples, unless I've missed any.

If you had no knowledge of English, and Japji were composed in English, and you were hovering your mouse over swim, swims, swimming, swam they'd either come up with nothing, or point you to 'swim', which might not make much sense if you don't understand what the different words mean (to swim.. he swam.. they swam... I am swimming... etc). I believe this accounts for why a lot of the time the srigranth dictionary comes up with nada-nothing-zilch-zero on hover sometimes.

In Gurbani inflection and case are even more complicated than English. Nouns change form depending if they are 'male' or 'female' sounding-words. Adjectives change form depending on the gender and number of the word they are describing. There are so many verb endings according to the tense and if it's singular, plural, a vowel-ending verb or a consonant-enging verb. Example:

The word 'kar' (do) in Gurmukhi has these present tense forms:

1st person singular
kara (I do)
karee (I do)
karo (I do)

2nd person singular
Karh(i) (you do)

3rd person singular
karai (he does)
kare (he does)

1st person plural
karh (we do)

2nd person plural
karh(u) (you do)

3rd person plural
karnhee (they do)
karh(i) (they do)

And unlike adjectives, in this tense there is no distinction of gender!

I wanted to try a similar approach as you in the beginning before I realised there is presently no shortcut to learning Japji in the native language, you really need to spend some time learning the actual lanaguage.

*The good news!*

For all it's perceived complexities, the rules for the language of Gurbani are actually really quite logical and relatively easy to pick up (for a language!). The script is an absolutely work of art which makes identifying the different words quick and easy.

If you'd like to take the project to the next level (come on you know you want to!) then I recommend downloading a copy of An Introduction to the Sacred Language of the Sikhs are having a read - it teaches you the script and the language (it's where I got the above example from). Download free here (you just have to register first): http://www.academicroom.com/book/introduction-sacred-language-sikhs [cudos to spnadmin for finding this for us!]

I've been working my way through the book (hit a wall recently and stopped but I intend to come back to it soon) and putting my answers in the forum here for other members to mark so if you want to compare your answers please do: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/learn-punjabi/40814-request-for-assistance-with-marking-tests.html

Also look around the forum for other posts about the language and grammar. And ask questions. 

My dream is to learn enough of Gurmukhi and the language to be able to create a 'learn nitnem in it's own language' sort of resource which will explain the language just in the context of Japji first and then hopefully other banis. I want to get it to a stage where someone can pick up the resourse and it will explain word-for-word the language so people can read the Gurmukhi and understand it, even if it's only in Japji and not the rest of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Because learning a whole language is quite a task and is time-consuming, when most newcomers want to get straight into the Sikh lifestyle and want to do nitnem (which let's face it is stunningly beautiful in the original) but feel a barrier due to the language.

I may never get there and it might not even be a feasable project but hey, I can aim for it anyway.

Good luck and happy reading!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 16, 2013)

kds1980 said:


> Well The other side of story That it is also an art used by very clever persons.They show their one face to society ,but there other personality is quite different




That is why Guru Ji tells us...AAKLEEAN sahib seveyeah...USE THE BRAINS He gifted us to search for the TRUTH..the REAL FACE...hiding behind the Mask of Divinity...but sadly many just take the mask for reality..too bad..they get cheated.


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## swarn bains (May 28, 2016)

my translation 
ਸੋਚੈਸੋਚਿਨਹੋਵਈਜੇ ਸੋਚੀਲਖਵਾਰ॥

No one can realize God by thinking, one may think millions of times and forever

ਚੁਪੈਚੁਪਨਹੋਵਈਜੇਲਾਇਰਹਾਲਿਵਤਾਰ॥

Divinity cannot be achieved by being quiet, even if you never speak

ਭੁਖਿਆਭੁਖਨਉਤਰੀਜੇਬੰਨਾਪੁਰੀਆਭਾਰ

A greedy person is never content; he may have the wealth of the whole world. Contentment is a must to realize God.

ਸਹਸਸਿਆਣਪਾਲਖਹੋਹਿਤਇਕਨਚਲੈਨਾਲਿ॥

The intelligence does not count for attaining divinity.

ਕਿਵਸਚਿਆਰਾਹੋਈਐਕਿਵਕੂੜੈਤੁਟੈਪਾਲਿ॥

How to find the truth? How to lift the veil of falsehood?

ਹੁਕਮਿਰਜਾਈਚਲਣਾਨਾਨਕਲਿਖਿਆਨਾਲਿ॥੧॥

Nanak says everything happens by God’s grace. It is pre-ordained.


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## japjisahib04 (May 28, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> ਕਿਵਸਚਿਆਰਾਹੋਈਐਕਿਵਕੂੜੈਤੁਟੈਪਾਲਿ॥
> 
> How to find the truth? How to lift the veil of falsehood?
> 
> ...


Swarn Jee In first line guru sahib asked then how to be truthful or as you have translated how to find the truth and how to lift the veil of falsehood but your interpretation of second line does not make sense to  me atleast. If  everything is pre-ordained or happens by God's grace then why should we take efforts.

To know how to be truthful, Guru sahib while dismissing hollow rituals being practiced during his times, have asked us to first offer your confession that I am not perfect and there comes burning desire to mend.  Strange when unlike indic mythology and semitic schools and pre-destined puni paapi philosophy, gurmat God has already bestowed His divine treasure (the divine weapon) to each individual 'nanak likhiya naal'. If you explore this treasure it will shine bright God concept is how to be a person a being of full of humanity how to be a loving being.


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## swarn bains (May 29, 2016)

very good I like it


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## Rupinder.Singh (May 29, 2016)

Gurfateh all

It has been long since I last visited SPN, just got an update for Swarn Bains ji's message. 

Over this time, I have come across few new thoughts around translation of Japji.

I would like to share it here so that we all can ponder over it and discuss it further.

Problem with current translation is that it uses term "GOD" but term GOD itself is not defined by the translator, So the readers go out and take the literal meaning of "GOD" as widely accepted which is in short  "A higher being above all". So the whole connection goes some where else.

Here is my version of translation of Mool mantar, which is basically identification of GOD as per Gurbani,

I am knowingly ommitting "Ik Onkaar" in start and "Gur Parsad" in the end which I will cover after I make middle part clear, hope that is ok.

So Partly MoolMantar is as follows:

satnaam 
krta prukh
nirbhau
nirvair
Akal Moorat
Ajooni
Saibhun(g)


Translation:

Satnaam ------"Truth" is the name
Krta Purakh ----is the doer, or is the reason of everything--Only Truth that is 
NIrbhau ---------is Fearless --Only Truth Can be fearless
Nirvair -----------is impartial---Only Truth can be impartial
Akal Moorat-----does not change with time---Only Truth is time independent
Ajooni -----------is formless, cant be confined to a particular form, Truth is omnipresent, (through its order(hukam))
Saibhan(g)-----exists by itself, does not have any dependencies


So In a Nut Shell, Gurbani has clearly defined that "TRUTH" is the GOD, we all should seek.

Kiv Sachyara hoiyai---meaning how to be truthful.

Hukum Rajai Chlna, Nanak Lkhiya nal-- meaning to follow the ORDER(Hukam) of Truth and by following it, We would become truthful too. 

I request all the members to please reflect on above translation and see if it fits in with rest of the gurbani and how it changes direction of our thoughts from a fictitious higher being to "TRUTH".



Now I would like to elaborate on Gurparsad:

Gur parsad-- two words, GUr + Parsad(i)
                  --- Gur -- meaning Knowledge
                  --- Parsad(i)-- meaning kirpa, 
                  -- Combined meaning ---Gyan di Kirpa naal, ie Through knwoledge and Understanding.


If we go by above translation of Gurparsad, it looks like incomplete, cos, it is pointing to some achievement through "Gurparsaad", but in actual the moolmantar(partial) did not give us any goal to achieve.

Now we turn to "Ik Onkaar" the very first word in Guru Granth Sahib, Let us assume for sake of understanding that it is "Ekankaar", 

Literal meaning of "Ekankaar" is being one with something. 

So here in Mool Mantar we are given the Goal in very first stanza "Ekankaar" to be one with something, 

That Something is defined in the middle part of mool mantar, which is "TRUTH"

And in the last part of Mool mantar (ie Gurparsad(i)), it is advised how to be "Ekankaar", ie by acquiring knowledge of "TRUTH"

Above Thought is also elaborated in following Pankti

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ, ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਾਇਣਾ ॥੮॥

first part essentially means " ekankaar satgur parsad(i)", which is short version of Mool Mantar.


Above are some of my observations in raw, I might be wrong, but I leave it on my fellow SPNs to please scrutinize and provide the feedback.

Thanks

Rupinder Singh


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## swarn bains (May 31, 2016)

truth is part of human code of conduct which we are born with and lost it due to worldly winds. satnam is not truth, satnam is satnam or ....


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## ravneet_sb (Oct 9, 2019)

Sat Sri Akaal,
Mentoring Lives

Jap Study
38 steps pauri

Step 1

Soche By Thinking
Such: Cleaning
Na Hovai Will not happen
Ja Sochey Lakh Waar
Even by thinking many a times

How to erase stored information, ie analogy how to clean our genetic hard disk, to receive Gurus Bani.   If hard disk is full.

How one
 can read and store.
Or Listen and store.             
When there is no space in system.

The way is SUCH.
Cleaning making space in mind to receive Gurus Bani.

Indicators of no space.
Problems and Desires

We make step 1 in Gurudwara

Not with Such but with problems and desires.

With problem:.
Chupey chup na hovai jai lai raha liv taar.

Inner silence is not there, one might be sitting in samadhi, problems are appearing in thoughts.

Bukhyan bukh na uttree ja baniya puria bhar.

Desires are on high, there is no time space mind space but still to achieve more.

Sahas syanpa lakh hovi Ek na chaly naal.
One may gain artificial intelligence,
but gained artificial intelligence is not inherited, will die after death,
 and
the next reproductive kin has to work again.

Doctors Engineers CA made of stored information, can not inherit artificial intelligence. Next one has to learn one self.

Kive  How
Sachyara  Truth
Hoi One can gain.
Kiv. How
Kurrey Ignorance
Tutey Break
Pal veil

Than what is way to break veil of ignorance of MIND ie OWN SELF.

Hukam. Natures Law Will
Razai. Acceptance
Chalna. Followance

Nanak
Oh Nanak WHEN ONE SEARCHES OWN SELF ABOVE MIND AND BODY, AND TALKS TO OWN SELF. This is a state.
Above own mind and body beyond SELF.

Likhya   One has to follow genetic information

Naal  Transmitted by RE PRODUCTION.

*PAUSE AND THINK  Step 1 is over.*

Hukam By Natures Will or Command

Huvan Akaar  One takes form  (Word Form/ Physical Form Etc)

Hukam Na Keha Jai

What Command within will executed can not be fore said

Hukami hovam Ji

The human will is bound to command

Hukam Miley Vadiayai

With commands withing one get appraised

Hukami Uttam Niche

With eternal commands one gets up or down feel

Hukami Mil Dook Sookh Pai

With eternal command on gets  negative(dookh) and  positive(sookh) feeling.

Ikna Hookmi Bakshish

Commands comes as blessing

Ik Hukami Sada Bhavaia

What commands generate feelings

Hukame Ander Sabko
Bahar Hukam Na Koi.

*THIS PROCESS IS ETERNAL not EXTERNAL. *

Nanak
Oh Nanak WHEN ONE SEARCHES OWN SELF ABOVE MIND AND BODY, AND TALKS TO OWN SELF. This is a state.
Above own mind and body beyond SELF.

HUKAM  Internal Natural Process
Ja Bhuje  If one understands
Ta Haume Kahe  Na  KOI
One will not talk "I"  
as this is information system of self, which may alter.

STEP 2 Pause and Think





Waheguru ji.ka khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## ravneet_sb (Jul 12, 2020)

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> Mentoring Lives
> 
> Jap Study
> ...



Sat Sri Akaal,

Those who believes that religion is by BIRTH, so the believers who says Brahmins kin is Brahmin, as Sikhs kin is SIKH by BIRTH.

And arguement which they gave,  that was after years of practice it is inherited through Gene's.

So a practical way given was that when there is birth of New Born dont speak language Ine as the kin knows the language  family in which kin is born, they are speaking for generations. 
As language shall inherit so kin shall know with re production now.

Answer was available with SILENCE.

Sahas syanpa lakh hovi Ek na chaly naal.

Pause and Think.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## swarn bains (Jul 15, 2020)

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||


ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||


ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||


ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||


ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1|| 
Ishna jee, it may be late but here is my explanation
this whole paudi reflects to sahas sianpa lakh hoi t ik n chale naal.
What it means that divinity cannot be attained by merely thinking, same way one cannot become godly even if one never speaks. there are people who do that. there are people who do not eat but it does not eliminate their hunger even if you put them up side down in food. eating or not eating one cannot become divine. No matter how intelegent one is; it does not go with you when you depart to destiny. Then how can we break the veil of falsehood. Every thing happens by God's grace, which is preordained, which was earned by you before death in previous life


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## ravneet_sb (Jul 15, 2020)

swarn bains said:


> ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
> sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
> 
> 
> ...


Bhugt Gyan
Experiential Knowledge not by reading But by way of experiencing WORD realization 
Daya Bhandaran Blessing in Ambundance
(Nature has blessed everylife)
Ghat Ghat Vajey Naad
Its pulsating in all lifes.

So that implies that all lives are blessed. 

Kiv Sachiara Hovie, Kiv Kudrey Tutey Pal

How to get TRUTH and veil of Ignorance will disappear

Hukam Rajai Chalna 

Everyone is blessed, but One has to understand
HUKAM (Instruction/ Law) ACCEPT it and FOLLOW it.

It is difficult to accept and follow, so one feels one is not blessed. And ones blessing will come at time, Followance will happen.

It is denying to accept and follow path, 
But as function of MIND is to reason, for all acts, 
So the interpret With blessing only, ONE gets and take on PATH.  If it is RIGHT path or TRUTH accept and follow, ONE is blessed.

It's like while learning, ONE says teacher is not blessing ME, and will score good Mark's, when teacher will shower Blessing. Denying attention, acceptance and followance by SELF.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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