# Jyots In Gurdwaras?



## sukritkaur (Feb 2, 2012)

Gurfateh everyone,

So I was at Malton Gurudwara yesterday and after the simran programme ended I noticed a diva type thing in the corner of the Gurdwara and I saw one individual even put his hands above the flame and then swipe it over his head. I was just wondering what does keeping a flame jyot type thing (sorry I don't know what it's called) has to do with Sikhi?
If I am  not mistaken, I thought this was a Hindu  practice but I am not sure. Especially when my parents told me that all the gurdawara have them and they couldn't make the connection to SIkhi either. So if anyone has any semblance of an explanation, that would be appreciated. 

Thanks in advance,
Sukrit Kaurjapposatnamwaheguru:


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 2, 2012)

I think the best thing I could connect was that lamps were used in pre-electricity time to read Guru Granth Sahib at night. The lamps somehow stayed on and people started doing the roll your hand over and touch your head or something. Some Gurudwaras use desi ghee to make it smell nice, but it is unnecessary. There is no connection to Sikhi and that is the sad state of our lives that we are doing things like mindless numb people without asking what is it for?

Satgur Shabad Ujaro Deepa      - YouTube


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## OneD10s (Feb 2, 2012)

Why do people touch the first step of the Gurdawara or the floor of the Gurdawara before entering and then touch their heads?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 2, 2012)

The DIVA has had vital significance in HINDUISM. Its Vital as "aartee" of devtas is performed daily in all mandirs....and divas are lighted at Hindu Festivals and the DIWALI festival is named after DIVA..Festival of LIGHTS..and divas are lighted at DEATH..to guide the soul in darkness..and a DIVA is lighted on the Banera (top story of house) or in the Window to GUIDE the Lover/husband/ homewards....

GURU NANAK JI Sahib brought a Brand New GYAAN..a Brand New Philosophy..as Bhai Gurdass Ji explains.."SATGUR NANAK PARGITAYAH..mitee DHUNDH..JAGG Channan Hoyah !! This panktee is not so much referring to Guru Nanaks Jis "Physical birth" ( as most Sikhs and esp ragis have taken it to mean..) BUT to the GYAAN SOORAJ Sun of KNOWLEDGE of the BRAHM the CREATOR that Guru nanak ji gave us....The "Physical Nanak" has been long gone..BUT His GYAAN shines as brightly as ever..in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to GUIDE the World through LIFE.

SIKHS as usual..wearing their "BHAGWA" orange coloured glasses...just couldnt let go of the TINY CLAY Divas and shudh ghee FAKE JYOT propaganda of the Wily BRAHMIN/PANDIT who doesn't do any physical work himself but loves to BURN the Hard earned WEALTH of the Jatt Farmers as in HAVANS..which require shudh GHEE, badams, kesjus, best attas, sugar gurr whatever...ALL PROVIDED by the Hardworking LABOUR of the working class !!..and BURNED by the Pandit.

SIKHS thus continue to light such "TINY FAKE WORLDLY JYOTS" in the August presence of the BIGGEST SHINING SUN of KNOWLEDGE..the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..the Rabbi JYOT..ILAHI JYOT of the CREATOR. Sikhs blinded by their orange contact lenses continue to light small clay divas in silver platters and wave these in front of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji attempting to "Light" the SUN.....when Guru Nanak ji has already said in PLAIN LANGUAGE..Gagan mehn Thaal...RAV CHAND SOORAJ STARS..all SHINE for the CREATOR...in FULL GLORY..BY the Creator..FOR the Creator..OF the Creator !!!

This shudh ghee jyot thingy has made a big come back in Gurdwaras thanks due to the influx of the DERAWADEE SANT BABAISM....and Gross negligence of the SGPC and Akal Takhat etc which have fallen under these fake Hinduised Keshadharee Hindus in Sikh garb who control Gurdwaras...where instead of GURBANI VICHAAR..more credence is given to how shudh the ghee is..how to keep the jyot from being blown out by the WIND !!!!..when we have the ILAHI JYOT of GURBANI that even a HURRICANE cannot blow OUT !!! we rush to handle STONES and discard DIAMONDS....( pearls before swine have no value).

Are'nt we  that stupid to believe that a CLAY DIVA that goes out in a wink can "guide" the SOUL in the after world ?? a Diva that goes out the moment the oil is depleted ?? the diva that extinguishes with a single wave of the ganges is supposed to GUIDE the SOUL ??? ONLY GURBANI..the Ilahi JYOT can do all that and MORE !!! GURBANI LIGHTS our darkened SOULS HERE and NOW !!!



			
				oned10s said:
			
		

> Why do people touch the first step of the Gurdawara or the floor of the Gurdawara before entering and then touch their heads?



2. Shardhaloos touch the first step of the Gurdawra, drink the water used to wash the feet at the Gurdwara entrance..wipe the dust from Shoe soles..etc etc.in an attempt to be "humble"....before the GURU !! I say "attempt" because Genuine HUMILITY is INSIDE...of the MIND...the MANN...and THAT inside humility cannot be gained with dust or washing waters...it has to be actively CULTIVATED by FOLLOWING the Gurus teachings in Daily LIFE...adopt GURBANI daily..in our actions..Speak the TRUTH...be NIRVAIR..be NIRBHAU....DAILY in all dealings....

The "SANGAT" is always INSIDE the Gurdwara..AFTER the GURBANI has been listened to..Vicharred...decided to FOLLOW it..BEFORE all these happen..the persons are just ordinary HUMANS..not Sangat at all....and in case you haven't noticed..NO ONE WASHES his/her feet AFTER Coming OUT of the GURDWARA....therefore NO SANGAT ever leaves any DUST around...the only dust available is of HUMANS who are coming to Gurdwara...mainly to eat Langar and GOSSIP..while away time..admire or UNADMIRE others etc etc...very very FEW may COME OUT as "Genuine SANGAT"....and those take away their dust with them...!!! No offense taken and or meant..my own views..hard hitting..maybe..???..............


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 3, 2012)

Perhaps the guy's hands were cold and he was warming them and then also, he warmed up the top of his chilly head?

I think if it was for any other reason, it was probably one of those mindless rituals that are useless and condemned by our beloved Gurus.  Rather like throwing water in the direction of Punjab to water one's crops.  (I wish that worked, though.  These days Punjab really needs the water.)

As for the other, it reminds me of a Christian man I once knew who used to hit himself over the head with a Bible as part of his prayer.  When I suggested that maybe actually _reading_ it might be more helpful. I was told (rightfully, btw), "You pray your way and I'll pray mine."  It's hard to say what motivates such people.  I once kissed the ground after a grueling airplane flight through an electrical storm.  It might be a useless ritual or it might be that the individual is truly grateful to be able to enter the gurudwara.  Unlike the lamp thing, which really does look like creeping Hinduism, this seems harmless to me.  


japposatnamwaheguru:  
They are playing my favorite shabad.  kaurhug


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## Harry Haller (Feb 3, 2012)

Only the truth stands the test of time, and only those that know it in their hearts, and have the need for only the connection with the Creator, will be the ones to ignore all the ritual Vedic practices that keep creeping in. 

However, I think it is wrong to judge, Creator invites all those with a genuine need for the truth to liberate themselves, the rest of us, in bed with thieves or ritual just have to keep applying and studying.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 4, 2012)

sukritkaur said:


> Gurfateh everyone,
> 
> So I was at Malton Gurudwara yesterday and after the simran programme ended I noticed a diva type thing in the corner of the Gurdwara and I saw one individual even put his hands above the flame and then swipe it over his head. I was just wondering what does keeping a flame jyot type thing (sorry I don't know what it's called) has to do with Sikhi?
> If I am  not mistaken, I thought this was a Hindu  practice but I am not sure. Especially when my parents told me that all the gurdawara have them and they couldn't make the connection to SIkhi either. So if anyone has any semblance of an explanation, that would be appreciated.
> ...


Sukrit Kaur Bhain thanks for your post.  Let me give you my understanding on a practical basis.  In villages and smaller towns in Punjab there were generally Gurdwaras that one will go to.  I remember on Massia raat (fully dark night with no moon and no electricity generally around), some light sources were even in a glimmer were useful to give one comfort to know bearings.  It also identified place for the lost or strangers to approach.  So in my younger days it had practical meaning like a street or house light that stays on at night.  Usually these Jyot/Oil burning lights were set alight at dusk.  These could also be taken around as working lights then in Gurdwara premises as well as to light other lights.

In terms of putting hands over the light I don't know much.  I do know that the light from Ghee/Clarified Butter usually has an element of soot which is increased if you wave or move your hand over the flame.  Now the carbon that you will pick up in moving your hand and the warmth being useful, that I do not know.  Perhaps one day some one will discover the odour reducing properties of Carbon  :sippingcoffeemunda:.

In terms of its use in modern Gurdwaras with A/C, air cleaners, emergency lighting, electricity etc., to me it appears of much less utility.

I hope above is of some help.

Sat Sri Akal


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 4, 2012)

OneD10s said:


> Why do people touch the first step of the Gurdawara or the floor of the Gurdawara before entering and then touch their heads?


OneD10s ji perhaps it helped either catch disease or build immunity if one did not get sick so doing.  Could it be considered indirect way of building communal immunity as I know I took sips of water at Darbar Sahib srovar when we used to visit as a child and even took a sip or sprinkled some water from where people washed their feet.

May be there is something to that, but I am not sure.  Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 4, 2012)

INDIA has a social aspect of what we call "JHOOTH"....no one other society ahs this inhibition....is it due to CASTE ??? The Arabs afghans pathans etc all eat from the same plate....the Chinese do the same...and the SIKHS are made to eat from the same plate and drink form the same batta during Amrit sanskaar ceremony...thus killing the "Jhooth" inhibition ??? From the on an Amrtidharee is not supposed to eat from a non-amritdharees palte..is that jhooth or is it religious inhibition..??? Is JHOOTH for helath reasons..immunity building or caste purity..??/ i wonder... and then we have all drinking water form sarovars and feet baths at Gurdwara entrances...people picking up dropped karrah parshaad off floors and eating that..etc etc..??/ Ambarsariah ji ahs covered the immunity/health section very well..a new perpesctive perhaps..???


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 5, 2012)

* Satnaam Waheguru Sat Naam Waheguru




*

*The real reason behind waving your hands over the Joyt is to honour the Fire Deva/God.*
*To thank the Fire for allowing us to have light heat and able to cook food for our subsistence.*

*The real reason for touching the footsteps or ground at the Gurudwara is to honour Mother Earth for letting us walk on her.*

*Mother Earth is a Living organism and has feelings too!*

*However in this Western society which has also permeated into the Indians the reasons behind these have been forgotten.*

*Much has been discarded to bring in new thinking devoid of real Humbleness and spirituality.*

*For in Western society its hard to understnd God exists in every particle every atom of creation.*

*
**kaurhugAmarjitkaurhug*


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 5, 2012)

> So I was at Malton Gurudwara yesterday and after the simran programme ended I noticed a diva type thing in the corner of the Gurdwara


 
Concentrate on the subject of simran after the programme has ended and you won't notice anything in the corner.


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## sukritkaur (Feb 5, 2012)

Gurfateh Pyari SPN sangat!

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion. Although I don't agree with some of the rationale behind the jyots (i..e. fire gods) I do realize that after the simran programme my dhian should've been on the subject matter of the Gurbaani sung, either trying to decipher the meaning or internalizing the message and ultimately since I failed to do that I don't think I got to experience the full effect of the Baani. Which I only have my absence of concentration and myself to blame for. Just an update, I was speaking to one of my friends who knows the head granthi at the Gurudwara and she told me that he doesn't always have control over things that go on in the gurudwara  if enough of the people involved in making decisions want something to be done, then the decision of the majority is upheld.

 Scarlet Pimpernel Ji thanks for enlightening me on the blunder that I made, I will work towards not repeating it in the future. However, my only concern with the jyot is that it sends the wrong message to people of other faiths or our own young children/youth that will now associate that to Sikhi, when there is no tangible reason for its existence in modern times. Also it is another one of many attempts (intentional or unintentional) to dilute Sikhism with Hindu practices. 
I feel odd because all the people I ask about this (my amrithdharee friends or adult intellectuals) neither of them can explain it to me and they have been regularly attending this gurudwara for quite a while now. I just feel as a Sikh, I should question the blind faith or understanding I put in things I don't really understand. And that it is my moral obligation to question the validity of my faith to avoid believing in/practicing unnecessary practices.

Please feel free to educate me if I have misspoken
Thanks again everyone for contributing to the thread
Sukrit Kaur


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 5, 2012)

The people who place the jyots KNOW that they can be blown out with a single gust of wind..so they make sure the jyots are sheltered inside glass containers..LOL....unlike the Gyaan jyot flowing out of SGGS...and anyway the Majority is always SILENT....( I blew out a jyot at a major function and no one batted an eye even.for a whole hour.....but all hell broke loose when the "Head Honcho Brahmgyani Baba" realised the holy jyot was out....his chelas rushed about like headless chickens..looking for a match ( i had earleir surreptioulsy removed the match box as well..ha ha)...so i know the MAJORITY did know the jyot was OUT but none cared...so thats the real truth.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 5, 2012)

Super cool Giani ji  that is just another practical example like the Guru Nanak's in Haridwar


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 5, 2012)

amarjit singh bamrah said:


> _The real reason behind waving your hands over the Joyt is to honour the Fire Deva/God._
> _To thank the Fire for allowing us to have light heat and able to cook food for our subsistence._
> 
> _The real reason for touching the footsteps or ground at the Gurudwara is to honour Mother Earth for letting us walk on her._
> ...


Veer Bamrah ji you kill your own argument and logic.  If the creator/God is in every particle and many particles together take infinite shapes I assume you believe in "Infinite Devas" just like the so called "Fire Deva" you mention.  This is garbage of religion that Sikhism came out of and unshackled itself.  Stop making backward progress.  

In Sikhism all together it is called one creation of one creator.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 6, 2012)

> Satnaam Waheguru Sat Naam Waheguru
> 
> The real reason behind waving your hands over the Joyt is to honour the Fire Deva/God.
> To thank the Fire for allowing us to have light heat and able to cook food for our subsistence.
> ...



Amarjit Singh ji,
Since our society is increasingly on the run to distance itself from nature, these practices are bound to disappear. Among western Sikhs they will simply be labelled as Hindu and discarded. But the real reason is not that which culture they belong to. The real reason is that we are born in a technologically advanced countries, in general we are not as in touch with nature as we should be. Hence "Fire God" makes no sense. Those who dismiss the "Fire God" don't know what Fire God is in the first place. Fire God is fire itself, the heat, the flame, the scent, the light... (BTW "to describe" is not "to know) from which arose the modern lifestyle that we take for granted. Fire is the father of all that exists today. Modern food, gold and jewelry, armour and weapons, cars, tools, etc. Fire is the essence _jyot_ of modern civilization. To pay respect to the fire then is important. Or are we too arrogant to do so?
In the name of practicality and utilitarianism, we forget that which is everywhere. We forget nature. 

Ancient societies however, who were not wrapped up in modern technology did pay their respect to the fire. Hawans (Indian), fire pit dances (Native Indian ), and other rituals around the fire, stories and mythologies about fire... this is the way to honour fire. And in honouring fire we honour God. It's not about fire but about using these small remnants of our ancient culture to get back in touch with nature, with God.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 6, 2012)

Gentlemen this is all very cute, cuddly and touchy feely, yes, we should go back to our Indian roots and nature and worship every part of creation from rivers to fires, the sun, the moon etc etc

However, I do recall a certain man born around 500 years ago who decided that these had become shackles and restrictive in  the true pursuit,namely  knowledge, wisdom, enlightenment, the ability to have mukti on a daily basis

Hell, why dont we add some stuff from the North American Indians, they seem to know a bit, or the Intuits? 

We have a way already, it has been prescribed by 10 Gurus, and is always there in the 11th. 

If you knew a way of calculus that was bombproof, why bother reverting back to the old way?
So Jios forward or backward?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 6, 2012)

The Notion that the Creator "exists" in each ATOM is BRAHMINIC/VEDIC...not GURBANI.
Can we have a Gurbani quote on that....Zarreh Zarreh vich parmatma etc is Hinduism..not Gurmatt...and the Parmatama is also a Hindu concept..Gurmatt concept is Atma...


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## japjisahib04 (Feb 6, 2012)

The real reason behind waving your hands over the Joyt is to honour the Fire Deva/God.
To thank the Fire for allowing us to have light heat and able to cook food for our subsistence.

The real reason for touching the footsteps or ground at the Gurudwara is to honour Mother Earth for letting us walk on her
-----------------
Hymns of Bhagat Kabir regretfully state “God has painted the greatest picture of the world with various colors but these wondrous creations (Forms) have now become the cause of concern, as mankind is emotionally involved with them and have diverted to worship picture of His creations instead of Him.” - Guru Granth ang.340.15.
Best regards


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 6, 2012)

Harry Ji....
you make a valid point..BUT then that Man born so long ago..in 1469..seems so far away...and the WRITTEN instructions He left behind as His Legacy..are always kept wrapped in rumallahs....its "boring" to ahve to read those and harder to "follow" them..so why bother..

Its much more fun to have a wood pile..fire it up..dance in the open field under dark clouds, and have a good time...( in the dark shadows..who knows what happens !!)..Tying ribbons on girls wrists is much more fun than fighting the invader and maybe losing your life...lighting oil lamps and watching fireworks is so much more fun..thats why the modern sikh is heavily into lohri, diwali, rakhri, artees and waving hands over jyots..and VERY LITTLE into really STUDYING GURBANI and follwoing ITS instructions...we are the...
I will wait for the Film and Fast forward it" rather than the READ THE BOOK from end to end type....it was to cater to this lazy crowd that Films were made based on books....we adapted the laziness to SGGS aslo...now many think that having watched Bahi taru Singh animated film of 40 minutes is MORE RELIGIOUS than actually KEEPING KESH !!( for whcih Bahi taru singh gave his life ..BUT then again THAT was BTS..and I AM GJS !! vast difference in time and space..LOL.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 6, 2012)

Gyani ji,
I am a bit surprised by your comment.

Page 89, Line 15
ਹਰਿ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹਿ ਕੋਇ ॥
हरि जलि थलि महीअलि भरपूरि दूजा नाहि कोइ ॥
Har jal thal mahī▫al bẖarpūr ḏūjā nāhi ko▫e.
The Lord pervades and permeates the water, the land and the sky; there is no other at all.
Guru Ram Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

The concept of Atma entails a Parmatma. Afterall, this atma is going to merge with the larger atma, that is, parmatma or paratma.

ਪਰਾਤਮੁ
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਵਡੀ ਆਤਮਾ, (ਭਾਵ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਪਰਾਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਹੁ ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਇਹੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਹੇ॥ {ਮਾਰੂ ੧, ਸੋਲਾ ੧੦, ੮:੩ (1030)}।

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਸੰ. परात्मन. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ. ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ. "ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਪਰਾਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਹੁ". (ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਃ ੧) "ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ". (ਧਨਾ ਮਃ ੧) ਆਤਮਾ ਜੀਵ. ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ.
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

ਪੰਨਾ 661, ਸਤਰ 11
ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ ॥
आतमा परातमा एको करै ॥
Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai.
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.
ਮਃ 1   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 1030, ਸਤਰ 12
ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਪਰਾਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਹੁ ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਇਹੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਹੇ ॥੮॥
आतमु चीनि परातमु चीनहु गुर संगति इहु निसतारा हे ॥८॥
Āṯam cẖīn parāṯam cẖīnahu gur sangaṯ ih nisṯārā he. ||8||
Know your soul, and know the Supreme Soul; associating with the Guru, you shall be emancipated. ||8||
ਮਃ 1   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਪਰਮਆਤਮਾ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ॥ {ਆਸਾ ੧, ਅਸ ੨੦, ੬:੧ (421)}।

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
n.   (from Sk. Param + âtamu) higher self i.e. God
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

ਪੰਨਾ 421, ਸਤਰ 16
ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥
जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.
ਮਃ 1   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Yes these are concepts from the various philosophical schools of the ancient Indian Brahmins (philosophers). Many such concepts exist and are endorsed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 7, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji..the "Atma" is the Natural Law that pervails in the cosmos...its NOT a "soul" that is 'separated" and then rejoins some bigger parmAtma... we get all that when we wear the coloured specs and not the transparent glass of Gurmat.
You would haev undoubtedly heard the raag bilwail shabd..Sooraj kiran mileh panni ka panni hooa raam......Its READ at all Shaheede Gurpurabs of Guru Arjun ji and also at all FUNERAL BHOG ceremoneus b{censored}es of individulas...and its meant to tbe taken that the Atma has rejoined the Sun just as its Rays do and the water elements in the body have returned to water state...
EACH of the meanings given by Bhai kahn Singh nabah in mahan kosh of "Atma..ParmAtma " etc can be validated by Gurbani shabads....ATMA is also the BODY...and as such when a BODY is elf destructed (suicide)..its called ATAM-HATIAH...now..that act is certainly not killing the "soul"?? or is it..how could anyone kill the soul ??

I take it that ATMA is "CONSCIOUNESS"....awakwening of the mind to follow the Laws set out..be AWARE. IF we stick to the goings and comings of atmas as rooh..souls etc that was already an old idea thoroughly seeped deep into the Indian religious body..if we take it that souls/roohs will be put back into dead bodies..that idea has also beena s old as the Abrahamic religions..in that case then GURU NANAK has not brought about nay CHANGES..nothing new...we have to agree with many that Sikhism is just  ahotch-potch remix of alreeady established hinduism/islam...a little bit of country a little bit of rick and roll ??? The perosn deeply seeped in 'country" will try and recognise the "country" bit..and the Elvis fna will try and catch the bit about Rock and Roll...but the fact is the Guru Shaabd melody is totally NEW...we can pick all the "country" bits and claim its ALL country...and the others can pick the Rock bits and claim ita all rock...but it really isnt.

Well in my view this shabad is NOT even remotley about merging lights and waters or dust unto dust etc...its a LESSON in PHYSICS !!

Water is in three stages..solid, liquid at room temp and gaseous. Guur Ji takes the MANN - the ONE that is controlling the BODY...as Water that has FROZEN hard due to it NOT allowing the body to follow the GURU's teachings...and this Solid water frozen piece of ice..MELTS when it meets the Warmth GYAAN of the GURU...and as a result TRANSFORMS back INTO "WATER".
ON page 878 Sagr mehn boond..boond mehn sagar..always translated as the Ocean is in the drop and the drop contains the Ocean....??? a seed of wheat grain..has both a "wheat tree" and Blood/energy inside it...IF the grain gets a proper soil etc..it will become a Wheat Tree...and if it gets into a Cow's mouth..it gets chewed up and transforms into blood of the cow..its ready for BOTH. Same way..a Human mind has BOTH awareness and sleep built in..a human mind cna be awakened ..made aware conscious..or it cna sleep and be in coma...the EFFORT of GURBANI is to AWAKEN..make AWARENESS and CONSCIOUSNESS....and karamkaands rituals etc do the OPPOSITE..lull the huamn into a deep sleep ..even "religious Coma" where he is satisfyingly comatose awaiting rebirth in a better joon due to his good deeds, donations etc while not lifting a finger against tyrannies injustices etc he sees..this was the lesson Guru nanak ji went to the Himalayan sadhus and Rishis to teach..
PLease visit www.SikhMarg to read the six part schoalrly article by Prof Gurbachan Singh ji..on this based 100% on all the meanings form mahan kosh which you ahev provided. Its just too lengthy to translate into Englsih...
http://www.sikhmarg.com/2008/1116-gurmat-vich-atma01.html


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## BaljinderS (Feb 7, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> INDIA has a social aspect of what we call "JHOOTH"....no one other society ahs this inhibition....is it due to CASTE ??? The Arabs afghans pathans etc all eat from the same plate....the Chinese do the same...and the SIKHS are made to eat from the same plate and drink form the same batta during Amrit sanskaar ceremony...thus killing the "Jhooth" inhibition ??? From the on an Amrtidharee is not supposed to eat from a non-amritdharees palte..is that jhooth or is it religious inhibition..??? Is JHOOTH for helath reasons..immunity building or caste purity..??/ i wonder... and then we have all drinking water form sarovars and feet baths at Gurdwara entrances...people picking up dropped karrah parshaad off floors and eating that..etc etc..??/ Ambarsariah ji ahs covered the immunity/health section very well..a new perpesctive perhaps..???



Veer Ji, its all pakhand which either comes from lack of knowledge or done on purpose to make themselves look humble in front of others.  Its easier to do this then to read Gurbani and discover the truth for themselves.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 7, 2012)

Purakh mehn naar naar mehn purakh buujhoh brahmgyani...the Womnn is IN the Man and the man is IN the Woman...it takes the sperm of the man to produce a Woman..and the Woman in turn produces Man...Raat mehn din din mehn raat...and see what Modern Science says..the human body contains BOTH male and female..one dominates and that part shows..the other part remains "buried" but its still there...its Law of nature..NOT due to nay Karam etc or past deeds....lol..the Brahmin will tell you..that man is born blind becasue in hsi past life he didnt give a gold plate to the Brahmin...or the Chrostian will try and convince you..that ...Jesus came to wash YOUR past Sins...and the Muslim will tell you that on Day of Kiamat Allah will sit in justice and give you back yoru soul..yet Both the Christian and Muslim will say that a Gay or a Lesbian etc is definitley so becasue of ????? past deeds..bad luck..??? why ??? So what IF an Indian refuses to give a donation to a Brahmin/sant baba/Brahmgyani whatever... a nd becomes a Dog in the next life..a Dog in an American household is way better than the average Indian living on the footpath..a Race Horse worth millions is insured for millions, lives in airconditioned luxury ...while an impoverished Indian beggar human sleeps on the street in winter or sumemr.....and who actually has proof that the a race Horse did indeed become one due to his past karma ?? Its all conjecture which is RUBBISHED by gurbani Gyaan of SGGS..the BRAND NEW GYAAN of Guru nanak Ji....Gurbani is meant to be USED here and NOW to change the BODY into a Better Harmandar...


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 7, 2012)

Gyani ji,


> Bhagat Singh ji..the "Atma" is the Natural Law that pervails in the cosmos...its NOT a "soul" that is 'separated" and then rejoins some bigger parmAtma...


Yes as famously articulated by Adi Shankarcharya ji. 100 points to you and Shankarcharya ji.


ਸੂਰਜ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਜਲ ਕਾ ਜਲੁ ਹੂਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Yes ice(mind) in the presence of the sun (Guru) and his teachings (Sunlight) melts and becomes ਰਾਮ, God.

ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਰਲੀ ਸੰਪੂਰਨੁ ਥੀਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
The jyot merges (ਰਲੀ) with Ultimate Jyot and becomes complete as ਰਾਮ (God).

Guru Arjan Dev ji's stance in this shabad is leaning more towards Ramanujacharya ji, who held a slightly different viewpoint than his guru Shankarcharya ji. He said that there is a difference between _atma_ and _parmatma_, as the _atma_ (e.g. of human) is a bit stupid (to put it simply, it is limited to a particular form e.g. human) whereas _parmatma_ (God) knows everything and is not limited to any form (he pervades all of them). But through introspection, by learning about one's origin one can merge into parmatma. This is consistent with the shabads I have posted above and the shabads you mention. The droplet of the ocean although contains the ocean is not the ocean itself.

Gyani ji,
It would be wrong to assume what Guru Nanak is trying to say before studying what he says. That would lead one to conclusions that do not hold or non-sequitors. I am happy to study first and conclude later than to assume before study.
On of the things not to assume: That Guru Nanak Dev ji always differs from older philosophers.


Going back to:





> Bhagat Singh ji..the "Atma" is the Natural Law that pervails in the cosmos...its NOT a "soul" that is 'separated" and then rejoins some bigger parmAtma...


You and Shankarcharya ji are correct here. This true at peak experiences during heavy introspection, searching into atma. When one rigorously looks for atma, one finds that there is only that one is the natural law that pervails the cosmos. Guru's do not disagree with this but their teachings definitely tilt away a little bit. Their language differs. They will say when one rigorously looks for atma, they merge with parmatma.

It's actually the same. HAhaha 
Let's say at time 2:00 - one's observation is that one is this distinct atma.
*After introspection, learning and experience*
Let's say at time 5:00 - one's observation is that there is only "the Natural Law that pervails in the cosmos" (it). You can say you merged with it or that you already were it.

Cheers


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## Harry Haller (Feb 7, 2012)

I am not keen on the word merge, companies merge, well, they don't merge, one generally swallows the other, and its called merging. 

What I am now, I always will be, I shy away from the concept that at some stage, everything is going to be wonderful, and there will be rice pudding every day for breakfast, and pork belly every day for dinner, this is an extremely Abrahamic way of looking at things in my view, that one day, yes, one day, its all going to be ok, all we have to do is have faith!

What I am now, I always will be, if I am lucky, I will adopt some traits of Creator, and have more good days than bad days, and that is all I hope for, and that is all I want, the strength to deal with adversity and the wisdom and knowledge to stop creating adversity, to love, to share. With other religions, heaven is a by product of being good, with Sikhi, being good is being in heaven, it is not a test, it is life


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 7, 2012)

[QUOTE Both the Christian and Muslim will say that a Gay or a Lesbian etc is definitley so becasue of ????? past deeds..bad luck..??? why ???QUOTE]


We were approached by a Man who could not understand why suddenly he had turned into a Homosexual. He was at wits end. Help he said.

When we looked down into his Body through super conciousness, we found he had a spirit of a Homosexual man inside him. In other words A spirit had jumped inside him!

After carrying out Spirit removal (Excorsim) this man reverted to his normal self.
Another young lady  was very disturbed she came to us to ask for help.
She  said Please help me I am not a Lesbian however I am suddenly being attracted to women.

I dont like this please tell me what I can do.

In her past life regression we found she was a Male in her previous life.
A very strong Male person who  had many female friends
Her attachment to being a male was so strong, it had come through into this life time.

 Even though she was born as a woman, in this life,  she was still interested in other women.

As  soon as we asked God to remove this attachment she became her normal self again.

This topic is very interesting and I attach a good book for you to read.

Its not Hogwash or rubbish.
This stuff exists we should look at all the evidence around us and then make a decision.

Sat Naam Waheguru
Amarjit


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 7, 2012)

amarjit singh bamrah said:


> [QUOTE Both the Christian and Muslim will say that a Gay or a Lesbian etc is definitley so becasue of ????? past deeds..bad luck..??? why ???QUOTE]Veer amarjit singh bamrah ji I think the girl you refer to is saying the same in the video below in a different language.  How many languages you think God understands?  One has to speak English or Hindi or Urdu also works in Jantar/Mantar?
> 
> *Jantar Mantar song - Shubh Mangal Savdhan   *
> 
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Feb 7, 2012)

Amarjitji, 

In some ways I envy you, you are a real child of the world, a real interesting person, and in some ways I even admire you for having the conviction to share your thoughts and theories. 

I would LOVE to share with you some of these theories, I would LOVE to read these books, to gain an insight into the world that you inhabit, but I cannot, with huge regret, I cannot, as it will take me off the road I am on now, and every moment spent contemplating something which my Guru has already informed me leads to nowhere is a moment wasted, the 11th Guru already tells us that this is the thin end of the wedge, and it leads to Babas, Sants, to looking for solutions in the ether, instead of reality. 

_its not Hogwash or rubbish.
This stuff exists we should look at all the evidence around us and then make a decision._

Veerji, We do not need to do this, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has already made the decision, the Hukam regarding this and ideas like it. 

I hope you can take my thoughts, and my Veer Ambarsariaji's thoughts with the same grace and conviction that enables you to put yourself above the parapet 

Gurfateh

P.S. On a lighter note, when I was in my early 20's I was convinced I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body, I did find many many women who attempted to help me with this situation


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 7, 2012)

Sometimes Paji

We have to open our eyes and see the world around as well through
other people eyes.

I admire your writings. Most of them are good
You have much knowledge. This is excellent.
You have much knowledge of Gurbani.
And its good you keep everyone on their toes.

However just because you have not studied  other areas does
not mean they are not true or they don't exist..

I have no knowledge of Gurbani as you do Because it was not my path this lifetime.

For the last 15 years I have studying these areas. I have been blessed to meet
masters who delve in higher conciousness as easy as you drive a motor car.

I am sorry it appears to me you only accept what you want to and no more.
_*If I am wrong please forgive me.*_
Please read the book if you can. Its a good book.

Lots of blessings to you

amarjit

PS I can't understand why 3 pictures of the book have come in to my post.


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## japjisahib04 (Feb 7, 2012)

Guru Sahib already warned us by saying, ‘srawag sidh smooh sidhan ke dekh firio ghar jog jatikey...He checked all these houses for us. We need not waste time reinventing wheel. No time for these things. Gurmat is unlimited.’ Let us learn this first. Therefore leave all above aside and, “japoh ta eko naama - contemplate and understand gurbani and rise up in the flood light of Gursabd. All other actions lead to hypocrisy, superstitions, destructions and confusions thus are fruitless.” - Guru Granth ang.728.5.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 7, 2012)

amarjit singh bamrah said:


> Sometimes Paji
> 
> We have to open our eyes and see the world around as well through
> other people eyes.
> ...



Amarjitji, 

Many thanks for your kind compliments, but I am unworthy.

I actually have little/no knowledge of Gurbani, everything I know has been learned from the school of having the s@@t kicked out of me, it is only in the last year that some of the thoughts and voices in my head have been started to make sense, before I embraced Sikhi again after many years in the wilderness, I kept saying to my wife that there must be a truth, a universal truth, and I was overjoyed to find out what Satnam meant. 

I absolutely agree with you that just because I refuse to accept something, does not mean it does not exist. 

Amarjitji, it is not a case of accepting what I want, it is a case of believing in Hukam, and trusting Hukam as to what is going to assist me, or hold me back. 

I have a heart condition, a few weeks ago, I ended up in an ambulance, off my head on laughing gas, as my chest screamed in pain, and my left arm felt like it was being beaten with red hot iron rods, cut a long story short, I was adamant I wanted an angiogram, but the cardiologist refused, in his opinion, he thought I was fine, the pain, he was certain was due to the wires holding my chest together, and the scar tissue, he absolutely ruled out an angiogram on the basis that he felt it could send everyone on the wrong path, and he could end up treating something that was irrelevant, and ignoring his gut feeling, I did not understand at the time, I think I do now


Gurfateh Veerji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 8, 2012)

PS I can't understand why 3 pictures of the book have come in to my post.??????????


is it time to ask "god" as to which "spirit" has invaded Spn Forum..or is it a simple 3 click salute that caused this *pehnomenon*....btw..clicks do exist...they come out of that contraption called the "mouse" nearby the computer...it has lots of click spirits just waiting to be unleashed on unsuspecting forums like spn....thats why i like to keep mine firmly under my thumb...no extra clicks..unless i say so...or the "spirit" form my past life/lives forces me to...but then i take it thta my "mouse" is bonkers and i get a new one...life returns to normal...thus i have about 50 such bonker mouses in my store - all the way from 24pin types used in 1980's to 4 pin...3 pin..round pin.. to usb to wireless....a virtual mouse museum....????????????////


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 8, 2012)

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਫਿਰਾਉ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਣਾ ਜਹ ਭੇਜਹਿ ਤਹ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥੫॥ 
According to the Lord's Command, people perform their actions; they wander around, driven by the karma of their past actions. By the Lord's Command, they behold the Blessed Vision of His Darshan. Wherever He sends them, there they go. By His Command, the Lord, Har, Har, abides within our minds; by His Command we merge in Truth.

Just posted this Shabad to say we merge with Truth?

Full Shabad on Ang 66: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0066.html

*Admin note: Please post full Shabad and or mention the page number/line number for a ready reference. Thank you.*


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## Harry Haller (Feb 8, 2012)

Today I am suffering from the karma of my past actions, namely yesterdays Pork Belly


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 8, 2012)

Click here: Aakhan Jor - The Great Surrender - YouTube 

Hara Hara Waheguru Hara Hara Waheguru

I will pray for your Pork belly


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 8, 2012)

> srawag sidh smooh sidhan ke dekh firio ghar jog jatikey


Page number?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 8, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Page number?


Veer Bhagat Singh ji I believe Japjisahib04 ji describe it as Guru Gobind Singh ji's quote as per the following thread,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/1780-japji-sahib-6th-pauri.html

So not from SGGS.  If it helps.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 8, 2012)

Oh wow talk about misinterpretation! Disappointing.

ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਸ੍ਵਯੇ ॥
त्वप्रसादि ॥ स्वये ॥
BY THY GRACE SWAYYAS

ਸ੍ਰਾਵਗ ਸੁੱਧ ਸਮੂਹ ਸਿਧਾਨ ਕੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਘਰ ਜੋਗ ਜਤੀ ਕੇ ॥
स्रावग सु्ध समूह सिधान के देखि फिरिओ घर जोग जती के ॥
I have seen during my tours pure Sravaks (Jaina and Buddhist monks), group of adepts and abodes of ascetics and Yogi.

ਸੂਰ ਸੁਰਾਰਦਨ ਸੁੱਧ ਸੁਧਾਦਿਕ ਸੰਤ ਸਮੂਹ ਅਨੇਕ ਮਤੀ ਕੇ ॥
सूर सुरारदन सु्ध सुधादिक संत समूह अनेक मती के ॥
Valiant heroes, demons killing gods, gods drinking nectar and assemblies of saints of various sects.

ਸਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਮਤ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਦੇਖੀਅਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਪਤੀ ਕੇ ॥
सारे ही देस को देखि रहिओ मत कोऊ न देखीअत प्रानपती के ॥
I have seen the disciplines of the religious systems of all the countries, but seen none of the Lord, the Master of my life.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੀ ਭਾਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਹੂ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰਤੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਏਕ ਰਤੀ ਕੇ ॥੧॥੨੧॥
स्री भगवान की भाइ क्रिपा हू ते एक रती बिनु एक रती के ॥१॥२१॥
They are worth nothing without an iota of the Grace of the Lord. 1.21.
page 40 Dasam Granth


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## Admin (Feb 8, 2012)

Why light a Jyot? 
http://www.namdhari-world.com/nw/why_light_a_jyot.html

Kuka Faith

The importance of  lighting jyot is to invite Sri Satguru Ram Singh ji to the place as HE  had said that "Jis ghar vich jyot jagdi hai, os ghar vich Satguru Ram  Singh ji da pehra hunda hai".

The light and ghee that is used to  light jyot is also accepted by the 'agni dev'. So we should always light  jyot every morning in order to invite him and then do naam simran in  HIS existance.

Method to light jyot - we should light in front of  Sri Satguru Ram Singh ji's photo. We need uncooked rice underneath jyot   and a glass of water besides it so as to offer HIM the jal. And jal  has to be changed everyday for HIM. Once we light jyot, we should  prepare a place for HIM as well by putting an aasan at a place where HE  should sit 'biraajman'.


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## Admin (Feb 8, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Oh wow talk about misinterpretation! Disappointing.
> 
> ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਸ੍ਵਯੇ ॥
> त्वप्रसादि ॥ स्वये ॥
> ...


Bhagat Singh ji, please explain the mis-interpretation... Thanks


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 8, 2012)

Aman Singh said:


> Why light a Jyot?
> http://www.namdhari-world.com/nw/why_light_a_jyot.html
> 
> Kuka Faith
> ...



OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH!!!!!!

Makes me just want to run out and join the Namdharis!  Er, who the H is Sri Satguru Ram Singh?

(Of course, I'm being sarcastic.)  peacesignkaur


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 8, 2012)

peacesign





Inderjeet Kaur said:


> OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH!!!!!!
> 
> Makes me just want to run out and join the Namdharis!  Er, who the H is Sri Satguru Ram Singh?
> 
> (Of course, I'm being sarcastic.)  peacesignkaur


Bhain Inderjeet Kaur ji it is easy.

_Ambarsaria is Sarcastic too below  peacesign_
Tie a white turban 90 degrees off, start lighting a Jyot and start paying for the light/enlightenment one way or another!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Aman Singh ji,
It is self-explanatory.
Key _Tuk_: They are worth nothing without an iota of the Grace of the Lord. 1.21.

Guru Gobind Singh ji is not saying to not explore things. He is saying none of what you find on your exploration is worth it without Grace, _Kirpa_.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Aman Singh ji,
> It is self-explanatory.
> _Key Tuk: They are worth nothing without an iota of the Grace of the Lord. 1.21.
> _
> Guru Gobind Singh ji is not saying to not explore things. He is saying none of what you find on your exploration is worth it without Grace, _Kirpa_.


Veer Bhagat Singh ji what are the possible signs of the Grace of of the Lord?  Is the birth as a human being not grace enough with rest left up to the human being to use the grace wisely?

Any thoughts!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Signs of Grace: When one understands and worships the Truth and starts to *be* the Truth then one has received Grace.

Yes birth as a human being is graceful, only if the human being is blessed with Grace in his lifetime. "use the grace wisely" comes from Grace. In other words, if the human being does not develop wisdom and other virtues (a high moral character) during his lifetime, if he runs after pleasures of objects and activities and does not look into the nature of his desire, if further he does not see the Truth and does not look into it, if he does not worship the Truth (all of which entail, in your words, "use the grace wisely") then he is not blessed with Grace at all.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji for me "Grace is a like a bucket of unlimited water available freely".  Whether one drinks from it, how much or not at all is part of being human and creator really can not be caring too much about it.  As the saying goes, "You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make *him* (_sorry for sexist connotation of a male horse_) drink".

So grace is always there and available but its realization is to each of us.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
Your horse analogy is a very good one. "You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make *her* (connotation now balanced) drink".
I would say the bucket of water is wisdom. Whether one drinks from it or not depends on the Grace factor. When one receives God's Grace, one drinks from the bucket of wisdom.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> I would say the bucket of water is wisdom. Whether one drinks from it or not depends on the Grace factor. _When one receives God's Grace, one drinks from the bucket of wisdom._


Bhagat Singh Veer ji I kind of disagree with your last sentence.  My understanding would be the following,

_When one *realizes* God's Grace, one drinks from the bucket of wisdom__._

For me God/creator's grace is always there for all, our part in realizing so is the proverbial "Missing Link".  God/creator is not in the business of rationing, hours of operation to give so we may receive, pretty benevolent and free wheeling.  It is us who try to put the genie in a bottle with labels of conditions, dosage, when and hows, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

It's the same thing.
However, in the Sikh tradition, we say "God's act of Grace" (ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ) not "realizing God's Grace".
E.g. 
ਪੰਨਾ 28, ਸਤਰ 11
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਜਿਸ ਨਉ* ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ* ਰਜਾਇ ॥੩॥
हरि हरि नामु धिआईऐ जिस नउ किरपा करे रजाइ ॥३॥
Har har nām ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai jis na▫o kirpā kare rajā▫e. ||3||
By His Will *He grants His Grace*; those who are so blessed, meditate on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||
ਮਃ 3   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Cheers


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

Veer in philosophical thought I am not bound by traditional approaches.  Of course I understand the humility associated with what you quoted and I am respectful of it as much as the next guy/gal (bloody political correctness!:sippingcoffeemunda.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
It's not something that should limit you. You may think of it like so. That which causes a person to realize the grace (which you say is already there) is God granting his grace. You are using the word grace for what comes after grace. Whereas, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses the word grace for the shift in the mind which causes the mind to turn towards the thing you call grace. Essentially it is the same.

Remember, the God in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a personal one and does look after people. He is the Omnipotent God who knows of our troubles. ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਨਨਹਾਰ - 282. Thus he also Grants Grace in the way a personal God does.
If you don't relate to God like this that is fine. Just know that is how our Gurus did. Their language reflects that. But once you come to know what they are talking about you need not use the same language.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

Veer Bhagat Singh ji 10-04.

Now returning to the topic of Jyot.  I would have thought that the carbon soot released by Jyot will help purified air.  I know Carbon filters are used in all kind of odor as well as contaminant reduction applications.  What you think?

This in itself could prove the utility of Jyots as long as it is clarified and explained as such.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
I think carbon filters are not the same as carbon compounds released from burning clarified butter.

Now I am actually not interested in the health benefits as much. I am more interested in psychological and spiritual benefits, and I am more interested in the tradition itself. As you know traditions are very important e.g. Tying a turban is a tradition, and a very important one. A turban serves little in terms of utility (protects from heat and cold but so does a cap, looks cool and different) but it's importance becomes crystal clear because of the tradition behind it! Traditions are also valuable as they carry with them the wisdom of the past. If we look into the traditions, then we can see the wisdom. We should not be quick to break away from traditions without careful thought and respect. By respecting traditions as adults we teach newer generations to respect the system we set up to guide them. 

Now I have already talked about the psychological and spiritual value. It is important to interact with nature. Not nature through some technological barrier (e.g. heating/cooling systems, artificial light) but nature as it is of it's own accord. Nature is energy, nature is vitality, nature is freedom. It is important to have a lived experience of nature by touching, smelling, seeing, hearing, interacting in other ways. Why is interacting with nature important? Gyani ji and I have already talked about how when we look into ourselves, there is a shift and we find that we are nature. Similarly, when we look deeply into nature, when we attentively interact with it through our 5 senses, we find nature is us. (These shifts in thought are uncommon but do happen). _Agni_ then becomes _agni dev_, _agni_ as a divine man! Those who do not know _agni_ through their five senses and those who do not know _agni_ as themselves, do not know _agni dev_. Similar to how we can say that those who do not know the _guru_, do not know _gurudev_.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਰਾ ॥੧॥
गुरदेव सतिगुरु पारब्रहमु परमेसरु गुरदेव नानक हरि नमसकरा ॥१॥
Gurḏev saṯgur pārbarahm parmesar gurḏev Nānak har namaskarā. ||1||
The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru. ||1||
pg 250
One might think it is ridiculous for Guru Arjan Dev ji to suggest such a thing that _guru_ is ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ, the Ultimate Reality. However, I think that Guru Arjan Dev ji has looked deeply into _guru_ and _gurbani_ and found the Ultimate Reality through it. Guru and Gurbani are just forms. Clearly, we should be concerned with the painter not the painting as Bhagat Kabir says. But it is through the forms we find the formless. It is through the painting that we come to know the painter. The painter is a painter because of the painting.

Enough rambling. Cheers


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 11, 2012)

sikh chaj koi yaar manavan da 1      - YouTube


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> One might think it is ridiculous for Guru Arjan Dev ji to suggest such a thing that _guru is ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ_, the Ultimate Reality. However, I think that Guru Arjan Dev ji has looked deeply into _guru_ and _gurbani_ and found the Ultimate Reality through it. Guru and Gurbani are just forms.


Veer Bhagat Singh ji no issue in what you cite as follows,

*guru is ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ *----  _one of the manifestations or names given to *Creator* in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji_ _(metaphorically to talk to people who heard of Hindu Brahma)_
_*Universe is* __*ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ* _ _---- * Creation*_

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
_Brahm_ is _Brahman_, the Ultimate Reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

On a side note: Brahma and Shiv (and their incarnations) are never used to refer to the Ultimate Reality in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. However, Vishnu and his incarnations (particularly Krishna) are. E.g. Hari, Krishna, Ram, Narayan, Chatrbhuj, Mohan, Gopal, Govind, etc.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> _Brahm_ is _Brahman_, the Ultimate Reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
> 
> On a side note: Brahma and Shiv (and their incarnations) are never used to refer to the Ultimate Reality in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. However, Vishnu and his incarnations (particularly Krishna) are. E.g. Hari, Krishna, Ram, Narayan, Chatrbhuj, Mohan, Gopal, Govind, etc.


May be may be not
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#BABAC7"><tr bgcolor="#BABAC7"><td>  ਤੂੰ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਬੇਅੰਤੁ  ਬੇਅੰਤੁ  ਜੀ  ਤੇਰੇ  ਕਿਆ  ਗੁਣ  ਆਖਿ  ਵਖਾਣਾ  ॥ 
तूं पारब्रहमु बेअंतु बेअंतु जी तेरे किआ गुण आखि वखाणा ॥ 
Ŧūŉ pārbarahm be▫anṯ be▫anṯ jī ṯere ki▫ā guṇ ākẖ vakẖāṇā. 
You are the Supreme Lord God, Limitless and Infinite. What Virtues of Yours can I speak of and describe? 
  </td></tr></tr></tbody></table>

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=11&punjabi=t&id=480#l480

I am not questioning translation without agreeing but just citing.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

What about it?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> What about it?


ਪਾਰ   -   ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ 

Supreme -  Lord God

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Yes I know I am just wondering why you posted that Tuk.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Yes I know I am just wondering why you posted that Tuk.


May be I mis-understood the following and responded so,



> On a side note: Brahma and Shiv (and their incarnations) are never used  to refer to the Ultimate Reality in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



We are pretty much off-topic so I am going to fight the temptation to respond more on this particular line of thought.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Ok by "never" I mean almost never (there might be a instance or two). Still Parbrahm means Supreme Brahman. Brahman is translated as Lord God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para_Brahman


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ok by "never" I mean almost never (there might be a instance or two). Still Parbrahm means Supreme Brahman. Brahman is translated as Lord God.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para_Brahman



so which word do you use to mean absolutely never? lol lol


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 12, 2012)

harry haller said:


> so which word do you use to mean absolutely never? lol lol



Brahmin is same as ABRaHIM 

Shalom is same as Salaam same as Sairam

Just they way the pronounciation changed over time


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

If I were to describe the beauty of a 1994 Range Rover LSE to someone that had never seen one, I would be forced to use terminology that they were familiar with, in order to allow them to visualise what I was describing.

 I would have to mention the Jeep in order to have a starting point, no doubt, I would then have people telling me that because I was in fact using a Jeep as a reference point, an LSE must be the same as a Jeep..............., or worse, an LSE was based on the Jeep, or the LSE is a Jeep, but with better spec, no, the LSE is a car that stands above any 4WD of that era, but if you have never seen one, it serves the same purpose as a Jeep, but without the constant ritualistic offerings to the Garage, and its mechanicals work as beautifully as it looks.


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## Kamala (Feb 12, 2012)

To call a part of a religion "garbage" is very disrespectful, a true Sikh would never do that.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

I agree bhenji, who has used this word?


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## Kamala (Feb 12, 2012)

> This is garbage of religion that Sikhism came out of  and unshackled itself.  Stop making backward progress.



Ambarsaria said it.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

GARBAGE
Pronunciation (US): 	
 Dictionary entry overview: What does garbage mean? 
• GARBAGE (noun)
  The noun GARBAGE has 3 senses:
1. food that is discarded (as from a kitchen)
2. a worthless message
3. a receptacle where waste can be discarded

The idea that there can be more than one Creator with the attributes of such, in Sikhism, is a worthless message. 

However within the boundaries of Hinduism I fully respect the concept, however, we are not Hindus, and as such I think Ambarsariaji made an absolutely valid point. In its own context, and in its own place, any concept can be acceptable, even human sacrifice to a Satanist, however within the confines of Sikh teachings, any concept that directly contradicts Sikhi can only be seen as a worthless message


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 12, 2012)

Garbage is Garbage...whats got to be said has to be said...Look at Gurbani..speaking the Truth....Foods comparable to *DEVTAS*..like Ghee, atta, sugar..loonn salt....are worthy and valuable..BUT ONLY and UNTIL... BEFORE man swalloes THEM....once INSIDE our digestive system..their value degardes rapidly..until the moment when they are all expelled form our posteriors....people hold their noses...avoid them like the plague...and they are not called DEVTAS..BUT SEWERAGE !!...GHEE DEVTA..is now sewerage....thats absolutle truth...has to be said...In the religious context..sounds made by pooja bhajans,,Gurbani Shabads..etc are Good Message...sounds made by the rustling leaves of trees...in the wind..are not of any religious significance..."sort of garbage"...to be ignored..like a driver ignores .."road noise" but not sounds coming from his engine...( Ahhh finally i am getting closer to harry ji and imbibing some of his Road/car / garage "knowledge/philsophy..ha ha)


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