# In Sikhism, Is There A Soul? Who Created The Soul? Who Controls The Soul?



## seeker3k (Oct 8, 2011)

There can be millions question on this question but I am looking for personal answers. 
Where was the soul before the birth? Where will it go after one die? Does every living thing have soul? Humans, animals and vegetation


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

*Veera personally I don't recall,* *one day I will know the answer, but then I won't have time for the question.*


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## seeker3k (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



Sinner said:


> *Veera personally I don't recall,* *one day I will know the answer, but then I won't have time for the question.*


 
Honest reply
thanks


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



seeker3k said:


> There can be millions question on this question but I am looking for personal answers.
> Where was the soul before the birth? Where will it go after one your owdie? Does every living thing have soul? Humans, animals and vegetation



Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I want to thank you for the intriguing questions. In order for all of us to interact and find the answers, I have a couple of questions for you for elaboration and clarification. I hope you do not mind responding to them so we can make this thread interesting where more people can participate and share their views.

What is Soul for you as a person and what has been your understanding of Soul?

Have your views regarding the Soul changed with time, knowledge and age? If they have, then in what way?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Seeker9 (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

I will share some personal thoughts with the disclaimer that I may not explain them as clearly as I would like as I am still thinking this through, and hope to develop my understanding with help from other posters...so please bear with me ...

For now, all I would say is that when talking about the Soul, it is easy to personify it or give it attributes of another kind of species. To me it's a kind of Energy of the same kind as the Original Source that it came from. Like other kinds of energy (e.g wind, solar, nuclear etc) there are things you have to do to access and harness this Energy....but the technology is completely different....call it a "Spirtual technology" if you like

And just as you experience things when you access the other forms of energy, e.g heat, noise etc when you access this Energy, you may experience things like light, sounds, colours etc when you meditate

So that's some scene setting...

Now to the specific questions in this thread which I will attempt to answer as best as I can..but I will cheat with one answer....in Physics (First Law of Thermodynamics), Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms

Where was the soul before the birth?
Where will it go after one die? 

When the physical body dies the Soul Energy moves to another physical body


Does every living thing have soul? Humans, animals and vegetation?

I believe this Soul Energy is present in all living things


I look forward to reading further posts on this thread, including some thoughts from Brother Seeker 3k Ji as to his understanding of the Soul and how he would answer the questions he set


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## Astroboy (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

First of all, mind asks the questions about Soul but Soul is beyond the mind. 

In Sikhism, an individual is referred as Jeev, (Plural - JeeaaN as *Sabhna JeeaaN Ka Ek Daata....*)
The translation of Jeev is Soul or Soul-Bride. 
Thus it appears in Sikhism that Gurbani refers to us as Souls but also advises the mind to follow the Guru's teachings and not be misled by Maya's snares.


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## Ishna (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

This question has been bothering me for a while.

My current thought is there is no personal soul as in unique energy-being which is transferred from one living host to another via death/rebirth.

As everything on Earth (including our bodies) is made of carbon which has been here since the earth began (with additions from space every now and then), I feel the same is true for souls, which like Seeker9 ji said, is an energy.  It's the morsel of jyot which is infused in everything.  It is not unique to your personality, when YOU die, YOU die, your molecules are re-circulated into creation and your jyot is re-circulated.  Like a drop of water, it goes back into the ocean, from whence drops emerge.

It's a cold idea because everyone wants to have eternal life which is provided by the soul.  Everyone wants to think their essence will continue on.  People like the idea of the bad guy's soul being punished some how, especially when he's avoided his punishment in life.

At the very least, honestly we don't know and can only speculate.

My personal thoughts and they have no foundation in Gurbani at this stage.


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## seeker3k (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Seeker3k ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 

This is forum I will not get into debate. You can post your thoughts if you don’t have personal experience


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



seeker3k said:


> This is forum I will not get into debate. You can post your thoughts if you don’t have personal experience



Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

I do not know where you got this notion about debate. No body is debating here. I simply asked you your understanding about the meaning of soul so I can understand it better. It is you who has put the question about soul. 

So, let's work on this together.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## seeker3k (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

I am not expert in Sikhism. That’s why I asked this question. Many people (none Sikh) ask me what I think about the soul in Sikhism.
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
The 3 major religions Jews, Christian, Muslims. Claim that their God told them they will not be reborn. They have to wait for the judgment day. Then you will be raised and be saved. It don’t satisfy me. Hindus have very elaborate system about the soul. They claim soul will be born n die n born again and again till they have learned what is needed for them to get mukti. It can take millions of years. Sikhs claim that they are not Hindus. So I wanted to know what is the soul’s fate in Sikhism. 
Here there have to be many experts in Sikhism to know what the gurbani say about it.
Most tell me that God create soul. Then it must be God who control the soul. God chose the life for us. Some one said here that we don’t have personal soul. When one die he just die that’s all. If that is the case then why we need to study the holy books and do the naam simran? If good soul and bad soul end up in same place then don’t need to waste time doing naam simran. Bani tell us to do the naam simran.???
<o> </o>
Most religions claim there is One God. If they are right then how come one God give 2 and more message to humans. He tells Jews, Christian and Muslim that they will not be reborn. And tell Hindus they will be reborn over and over. The 3<SUP>rd</SUP> message to Sikhs. Some be reborn and some will not be reborn.
<o> </o>
What the God was thinking when he created us? There has to be some kind of system. But looks like no one knows what that system is.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

seeker3k ji I find your title and your question little confusing,

*Title:*


> _In Sikhism_, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?



*Body of Post:*


> .... I am looking for personal answers.


So if one were to reply to the title one has to provide interpretation of Sikhism as considered opinion or belief.  But if one answers the body of your post one can address without much consideration of Sikhism and simply state one's belief or understanding.

So one way or another the answers can be manipulated to create a Sikhism impression or what people think.

So which one is your end goal?  As Agnostic why people would ask you questions about religions which firmly believe in a creator is unclear?  Do you have a Sikh persona and non-Sikh beliefs or understandings as that may be the root cause of confusion between you and whoever is asking for your expert opinion on Sikhism.

Why don't you come clean and say I am not a Sikh and cannot give you an answer if such is the case versus passing along other people's answers without believing in these.

Some known aspects from other threads with reasonable consensus:


Sikhism does not believe in re-incarnation or trans-migration of souls or such
Sikhism does not believe in Karma of so called past lives or carrying it forward to future lives
There are great many references to an inner self (jyot, etc.) that is co-joined with rest of creation during life as a commonality in addition to "one noor" or "one source" of all creation before, during and after life
I do not know if these help in your quest.

Please clarify so that this thread develops suitably and productively.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



> Some one said here that we  don’t have personal soul. When one die he just die that’s all. If that  is the case then why we need to study the holy books and do the naam  simran? If good soul and bad soul end up in same place then don’t need  to waste time doing naam simran. Bani tell us to do the naam simran.???




Seeker3k

Just elabourating my personal thoughts on this point and then I will be quiet.

Guru Arjun Dev Ji says this precious human life we have is our chance to meet the Divine.  Don't waste it! he says.  We study Gurbani to try and live with the higher awareness of Naam constantly (naam simran).  It brings peace, steadfastness, sublime observation of Naam moving with creation which brings an inner knowing of being part of it all and it's awesome.

Good people, bad people, they're all just people, and I feel very sorry for those people who can't see through the illusion and grasp the wonderous in this life.  Naam Simran isn't wasting time, it's an amazing level of awareness (which I'm yet to reach).

I think, the goal is to make death a smooth transition.  If you have peace and naam simran, death is just another thing, it's not something to be scared of.  It's not about worrying what you might be reincarnated into.  It's not about worrying whether you will or won't get into heaven.

But those are my personal thoughts and possibly slightly off-topic, so I will leave it there.

Ishna


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



Ishna said:


> [/SIZE][/FONT]Seeker3k
> 
> Just elabourating my personal thoughts on this point and then I will be quiet.
> 
> ...


 
*Ishna Ji ,Gurbani is to make your* *precious* *life smooth and divine, now to death, if you have peace in life death is just a smooth transition.*


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

This is only my own very personal opinion, and like Ishnabhenji, is no way influenced by Gurbani, but the Guru Jyot I feel inside, when I find these feelings tally up with Gurbani, I feel very happy and content indeed, When they do not, then I realise I am missing some information, knowledge, or Gyan that I need to read up on as my understanding is clearly not correct., 

I have noticed that parts of my 'soul' (if my soul means who I am, the thing that makes me different from say Sinnerji, we obviously have different characters, traits, likes dislikes), come from many members of my family. I look like a cross between my mothers younger brother and my fathers elder brother, although, when younger I looked like my fathers twin. My dads elder brother was also like me when he was younger, so my soul must be made up of generations of souls. Do they all live in me? I can feel my fathers soul, and my mothers soul sometimes, but they are still alive!, and also, I am childless, and I am pretty sure being childless does not bar your soul from carrying on, or does it?

Sometimes I meet a kindred spirit, and realise my soul also lives in them, again, they may not be family, so the DNA question goes out of the window. 

I can only conclude that a baby is born, it has a soul, made up of the DNA of its parents, a small moral compass, and access to say 1/3 of its brain, of its true potential, I think it was seeker3k that asked if a man who was deaf and dumb and blind could be a good sikh, I think he could , I think if you meditate on that moral compass which I would call Guru (not sure which one prakashji, however I would be delighted for you to tell me, and, no, I am not joking, I think there is something in the Gur Guru Guroo post, although Ambersariaji growling is always a sure fire way of sorting the wheat from the chaff), then I think you will find Bani and ultimately Gurubani, lets be honest, we did not need Guru to tell us most of things that we embrace, truth , honesty, bravery, all these things and more are all stored away in our heads, just waiting to be accessed, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a written living embodiment of that information. Isaac Newton noted gravity, he did not discover it, it already existed before he noted it, so, I think Guru's knowledge exists in our head already, we just need to keep an eye out for dropping apples. 

So all is well, you go through life, you learn, you unveil the information internally, you find it matches the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, all is good, and then you die, do you zip back into another baby, no, I do not buy that, that baby is the product of years of breeding and DNA, so you are left with either nothing, or something else, nothing seems harsh given you have a lifetime of knowledge under your belt, then again, nothing seems lenient if you have a lifetime of giving pain. Seeker mentioned that energy cannot be destroyed or created, does the brain have an energy that can be quantified? does a hard drive containing data weigh anymore than a hard drive with no data, could it weigh less???

The only rational explanation I can offer to myself at this present time is that as humans we see only a small part of what is going on. There could be more things going on around us that we are not aware off, this is not magic, this is physics, if things exist that are vibrating at a level that cannot be seen or felt, then we would be unaware of them. Maybe death liberates us from this world, and we exist as jyot. But then what about retribution, what about rewards for the good and punishment for the bad, I do not believe there is any divine retribution, but in some way, just as when you kick a dog, you may get bitten, then our actions in our lifetime someway influence our spiritual being afterwards, and that, I am afraid, is as far as I can take that particular theory


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## Seeker9 (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



seeker3k said:


> I am not expert in Sikhism. That’s why I asked this question. Many people (none Sikh) ask me what I think about the soul in Sikhism.
> fficeffice" />
> The 3 major religions Jews, Christian, Muslims. Claim that their God told them they will not be reborn. They have to wait for the judgment day. Then you will be raised and be saved. It don’t satisfy me. Hindus have very elaborate system about the soul. They claim soul will be born n die n born again and again till they have learned what is needed for them to get mukti. It can take millions of years. Sikhs claim that they are not Hindus. So I wanted to know what is the soul’s fate in Sikhism.
> Here there have to be many experts in Sikhism to know what the gurbani say about it.
> ...




Dear Seeker3k Ji

There is a distinction to be made between the Abrahaminic Religions and Sikhism in terms of compositiion and age

Did the Prophet write the Qu'ran? Did Jesus write the New Testament? Did YHWH write the Torah with fiery finger?

How much have the Scriptures changed over time?

How confident can we be the original message is still there in its purest form?

I don't want to hijack this thread but wanted to respond to some of the points you raised


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



Sinner said:


> *Ishna Ji ,Gurbani is to make your* *precious* *life smooth and divine, now to death, if you have peace in life death is just a smooth transition.*



Sinnerji these quotes of yours worry me ever so slightly, and I do not agree with either statement, 

Gurbani is to make your precious life smooth and divine...

I would say that Gurbani is to make your precious life mean something, and to give you the tools to deal with the many hurdles and challenges you will go through. Gurbani is not magic, chanting incantations and meditating with your fingers in your ears is not suddenly going to transform your life into divine, but that is only my opinion

If you have peace in life, death is just a smooth transition, 

uhmm tell that to the many peace loving people who have lost lives in civil unrest, wars, rapes, riots, all people in the wrong place at the wrong time

the trouble with life is that there is no divine, no smoothness, no easy quick transitions, it is hard, and sometimes peace is taken away from you, you react according to Gurbani as to whether to fight for peace, fight for life, these all encompassing statements, to me, seem like the very quotes that you  hear from sants and babas trying to peddle their 'way'

no offence intended brotherji, I know we can speak frankly to each other


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

Veera, there is nothing more truly magical than Gurbani ,as it can turn sinners into saints and don't worry about the translation, it is done by a committee of Scholarly Sikhs, so it is unlikely that it is skewed at all ,it is our own reluctance to accept the translation that obstructs us.There may be isolated mistranslation but even that is only exchanging words that usually describe the same course differently.I remember some translations took 10 to 12 years so it requires alot of dedication  patience and effort ,only a very devout Sikh could do it.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

provided it is translated and interpreted with the spirit in which it was written, and the time factor is allowed for, I agree with you 100% my dear little pimpernel. 

otherwise it can turn saints into sinners and hawks into sparrows
or even worse, give us a world full of sinners and sparrows who think they saints and hawks

Le Comte de Frou Frou


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## seeker3k (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

Was there no one at peace before Nanak?
Most democratic countries have rules and regulation that can make sinner saint. Only if we abide by those rules.
What naam simran one have to do to become saint?
To become good person one has to only control his/her thoughts. 
By the posts I gather that there is no soul in the person.
That’s good


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

Sorry 3k Veera I got distracted from your original question,there is one and it is the only thing that really exists. Saints also have existed before ,they are the ones who could  of the world ,not just follow the laws of the country ,that does not make you a *Saint*, that makes you *just a citizen*.
*Saint has realised the truth *and is *detached from the world* but he still obeys societies rules provided they are just. When* Guru Nanak* arrived he gave us another name for students who have newly enrolled at the* School for Saints ,*we call them* Sikhs*.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

Sorry, I do worry about the translation, a lot..............


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 9, 2011)

Veera even if you read it in punjabi like you say you will, it *has still* *been kind of 'translated'* to that as it was written down in a joined up form originally, I think it is referred to as gurmukhi but there might be a scholarly term for it.


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*

I am wondering if the OP questions are being discussed? welcomekaur


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## Ishna (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: In Sikhism, is there soul? Who created soul? Who control soul?*



harry haller said:


> If you have peace in life, death is just a smooth transition,
> 
> uhmm tell that to the many peace loving people who have lost lives in civil unrest, wars, rapes, riots, all people in the wrong place at the wrong time
> 
> ...


 
Harry Bhaji, I think Sinner ji was going on my initial post.

I like to think about the examples Gyani ji often gives of Sikhs from history being tortured and chanting Japji Sahib until their death.

I think suffering is largely a point-of-view thing, but I feel sorry for people who never get to grasp hold of the Guru's feet to get that level of peace to begin with.

And as you well know, I am *far* from that level of peace in my own mind.

But I also agree with your statement about Gurbani giving meaning to life and providing tools to overcome obstacles.

Ishna

*sits on her hands so she doesn't type O/T anymore!*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 10, 2011)

I consider soul to any living body as energy battery to any vehicle.So the soul can be taken as fuel for the living bodies.Just as no vehicle can be in use without fuel so is any living body without soul.Different bodies have different quantum of power of soul so we find different living bodies have different period of natural death.
This is just a thought.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Oct 10, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I consider soul to any living body as energy battery to any vehicle.So the soul can be taken as fuel for the living bodies.Just as no vehicle can be in use without fuel so is any living body without soul.Different bodies have different quantum of power of soul so we find different living bodies have different period of natural death.
> This is just a thought.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



I humbly disagree Prakashji, the fuel that we need as living bodies I would say comes from food, not soul, I see plenty of living bodies every day that use up plenty of fuel, but have no soul, or a tiny soul that is not being fed in anyway,. 

Unfortunately, In my disagreement with you, I am unable to offer any betterment of your words, but I will certainly think about this. There is this tree, outside my shop window, it has been waving at me all morning, I will go to the park opposite my shop later and ask it


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 10, 2011)

Harry Haller ji,
Thank you for disagreeing which I take as obvious.We can keep in mind that food can be considered as supplementary source of enegy whereas Soul energy is the Real energy .Like Sun Energy is the Real Energy for vegitation but water,mannure etc are supplement for growth.
I think we should try to know what exists  beyond the physical form/forms of the Universe.Isnt this interseting?
We also learn that Soul can not be cut.destroyed by fire  or drowned by water so such a thing can be eternal only.What transforms is the Jeev{Thought) in different forms and this JEEV(thought) along with Soul takes up a new journey untill merged with the infinite.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Oct 10, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Harry Haller ji,
> Thank you for disagreeing which I take as obvious.We can keep in mind that food can be considered as supplementary source of enegy whereas Soul energy is the Real energy .Like Sun Energy is the Real Energy for vegitation but water,mannure etc are supplement for growth.
> I think we should try to know what exists  beyond the physical form/forms of the Universe.Isnt this interseting?
> We also learn that Soul can not be cut.destroyed by fire  or drowned by water so such a thing can be eternal only.What transforms is the Jeev{Thought) in different forms and this JEEV(thought) along with Soul takes up a new journey untill merged with the infinite.
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Like you Prakashji, I find it hugely interesting and quite exciting. I will tell you what the tree told me, as I went to walk out, the butcher next door called me back and asked if I could go and buy him some bread, well 10 loaves of bread while I was out, so I walked to the bakery first, on the way back to my tree, I thought, how am I supposed to ask the tree about soul with hands full of bread, anyway I found the tree, as I walked up to it, an acorn fell in front of me. 

The questions of soul, what happens after death, who created soul, these are good questions, but I do not believe they must be meditated on, they can be debated whilst we carry on with our lives, working, playing, sleeping, when we get a spare minute it is great to ponder the unponderable, but to spend a moment purely in the pursuit of unanswerable questions is a waste of time and energy, as there is no conclusive answer. As we go through life, we leave bits of our soul with people, in the way we treat them, talk to them, interact with them, some may remember us forever, but for the wrong reasons, I do not quite know what the soul is, or what happens to it, but I do know it was made for sharing, for leaving an imprint on others, be they animals, or humans, or even vegetation, our actions to others define our soul, as our soul defines actions to others, it is, as are many things circular, 

that is what the tree told me, but then Prakashji, for you to be able to ponder such questions is a testimony to the level of understanding you have reached, but to which I fall extremely short, (the tree told me that too)


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 10, 2011)

Harry hallar ji,
Thank you for your nice response and I feel greatly humbled with last two lines of your message.
My Dear Son(I think i can use this reference from my age considerations),Read Gurbani as much as you can.The beauty of this scripture is that the more you read,the more you learn.Each time you read,You grow morein understanding.A moment may come when you would be virtually listening to satiGuru ji.
Prakash S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Oct 10, 2011)

Prakashji, 

many thanks for your kind sentiments, do you think that we can hear Satguru all the time, We just do not listen?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 10, 2011)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
We learn from Gurbani How important is the Role of Just listening in resulting in overall transformation in ones status(Ref Jap ji for this)'
It is true that many of us dont know how to listen.Moreover we are not required to listen all the times.We are required to listen while reading.Even for a while unison of reading and listening is just miraculously effective.
We have to bring our mental state to such a level .There are several dimensions of listening this we can take up gradually.Since Gurbani is complete and perfect lyric.You can imagine listening to a music of your liking .How you feel  lost and be with the music only.The same status is required to be maintained with Gurbani listening too.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## seeker3k (Oct 10, 2011)

We also learn that Soul can not be cut. destroyed by fire or drowned by water
 This is from gita.
All the religions are based on soul. Every religion is trying to save the soul.
Some time ago scientist (don’t ask me who was that scientist) said that energy can not be created nor can it be destroyed. This was picked up by the religious people and claimed that soul is energy. 
It is like no one have seen god nor any one seen soul. Yet every one believes in both.
Soul is also called joyt. At the time of death joys will merge with the supper joyt. The joyt was with god was separated from god. Ever since then it is trying to get back to the source. But no one knows what source. Very interesting.
The question is who separate that soul and why? Some claim that soul is like a drop of rain drop. It will travel from the top of the hills and through the rivers and will merge back in the sea. Will that end the cycle of the rebirth of the soul? The soul was there before it was pushed out. At that place soul do no karma. Then why the soul was was pushed out. And going back will guarantee that it will stay there.
I really don’t know where the Sikhism stands on this.
I try to find out from giani, bhai ji, even Maskeen. There is no one can explain the system. The rebirth of Hinduism don’t make any sense to ME.
Some one said the religion is biggest scam there is.
I don’t know about that…


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 10, 2011)

seeker3k ji I thank you immensely to debunk some of the garbage about soul splitting, energy, waves, etc. , to make them sound like Sikhism concepts.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Even though we differ in areas and that is human but in this post you hit the nail right on the head.  You are going to get lot of nagging rebuttals to your post from some spners learn to ignore and don't get frustrated.  Such people are a great dis-service to future generations of young Sikhs and they are too old to reform is my experience since early this year.

In terms of Sikhism, it is clear that the promoters of re-incarnation, soul living will also some day tell you that such a such person is actually Guru Nanak Dev ji or Guru Gobind Singh ji's soul.  There are already few Babey/Sant/Dehras, etc., who already exploit this garbage.  Shame on such people.  In Sikhism you are born, you live and you die.  Good living guidance, teaching and living in consonance with the creator and creation is what Sikhism focuses on, rest is garbage.



Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 10, 2011)

SEEKER 3k ji,
I think if you can go thru Bani of Sukhmani Sahib in SGGS I aam sure you may find some relevent answers to what you negate in your message.
There is no concept of GOD in SGGS .This assumpton itself prevents anyone  from understanding the true messages of Gubani.
There can be no solutions for better understanding if we close the eyes from the facts given in SGGS .It all is dependent on the grace of the Creator Prabhu(Ultimate Lord)
I can only pray Sati Guru ji to provide grace to all for correct way of thinking.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Seeker9 (Oct 10, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> seeker3k ji I thank you immensely to debunk some of the garbage about soul splitting, energy, waves, etc. , to make them sound like Sikhism concepts.
> 
> Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
> 
> ...




Dear Ambarsaria Ji

I can see from your posts you have passion for Sikhism and I have no doubt I have much to learn from you and others as I have already done since I joined SPN

However, I found some of your comments above overbearing and would respectfully draw your attention to the stated terms and conditions of this forum as follows:

Comparative religious discussions can be educational, but ridiculing other faiths or excessive criticism of their beliefs is not constructive and it is not allowed on SPN. We need to be tolerant of our differences and accept people for what they are instead of being critical of their beliefs. All allegations must be backed up by verifiable references from neutral sources.

Critically Important: Sometimes, our zeal to defend the Sikh identity and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji may lead us to forget that the Sikh Rehat Maryada commands us to respect other religions. When you criticize practices of other religions, or its prominent figures past and present, please weigh your words carefully. Comments and opinions that unjustly generalize or deliberately intend to hurt religious sentiments of followers of other faiths & philosophies, that are inaccurate and or cannot be supported by historical evidence, or that promote negative stereotypes, will be edited or deleted without notice. The major aim of SPN is bridging the gaps between the religions and Failure to comply may result in termination of your membership.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 10, 2011)

*Seeker9 ji , Ambarsaria ji is normally balanced in his approach ,I don't think TOS was violated.** We must practice more reciprocity if he said your post was good thats much better than he is with me, I drew my sword too fast earlier and cut myself but I had no choice as that is the Musketeers codemundahug*


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 10, 2011)

Seeker9 said:


> Dear Ambarsaria Ji
> 
> I can see from your posts you have passion for Sikhism and I have no doubt I have much to learn from you and others as I have already done since I joined SPN
> 
> ...


Seeker9 ji show me where I criticized other religions in my post.  I have not changed it yet.  Others Sikhs are injecting ridiculous statements in the context of Sikhism and only that is debated.  If a Sikh gets hurt it is too bloody bad.  If they are misleading the youth with wrong messages or mis-representing Gurbani without proper quoting, it is of more consequence to speak up regardless of your interpretation of the TOS in this forum. Too much energy, waves by armchair Einesteins.  

I suppose you don't see what I see and that is part of life.  

Sat Sri Akal.

Deleted some language that will only further digression and arguments. spnadmin

I am not complaining. lol mundahug.  Brothers should go at each other once in a while.  It is OK.


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2011)

I do not see any violation of TOS in this thread by Ambarsaria ji.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 10, 2011)

Dear Sinner Ji

I think it is fair to say I have thanked many of Ambarsaria Ji's contributions as well and also said in my last post that I have a lot to learn from him and others


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## Seeker9 (Oct 10, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Seeker9 ji show me where I criticized other religions in my post.  I have not changed it yet.  Others Sikhs are injecting ridiculous statements in the context of Sikhism and only that is debated.  If a Sikh gets hurt it is too bloody bad.  If they are misleading the youth with wrong messages or mis-representing Gurbani without proper quoting, it is of more consequence to speak up regardless of your interpretation of the TOS in this forum. Too much energy, waves by armchair Einesteins.
> 
> I suppose you don't see what I see and that is part of life.
> 
> ...




Dear Ambarsaria Ji

I think it is possible for you to say you disagree with a view instead of dismissing it as garbage and then accusing other posters of having some agenda to mislead future generations

I thought this was supposed to be an open forum and not one where "If a Sikh gets hurt it is too bloody bad."

Anyway, to that end, I have re-categorised myself as "A learner" to emphasis that anything I post is my thoughts alone and not based on an intimate knowledge of Gurbani I do not possess. Whilst I value Sikhi above any other path I have come across to date, the last thing I want to do is mislead anyone 

As for TOS, I pasted the entire paragraph for context but the bits I had read were:

"We need to be tolerant of our differences and accept people for what they are instead of being critical of their beliefs"

"Comments and opinions that unjustly generalize or deliberately intend to hurt religious sentiments of followers of other faiths & philosophies, that are inaccurate and or cannot be supported by historical evidence, or that promote negative stereotypes, will be edited or deleted without notice." 

This is in the context of what I noted earlier about Garbage and groups of people out to mislead future generations

As for my earlier post, not sure what TOS violations I have done but happy to apologise and withdraw the post if that is the case

Sorry I have upset you but I was also upset by your post

I still have a high regard for your contributions and am still here to learn


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2011)

The thread is starting to look to me like a living laboratory of 5 thieves at work, in a thread about the soul. Strange!

Some thoughts. And they may fall on both sides of the fence as I am not convinced that any poster so far has taken the high ground.

1. Disagreement is not always hostility and without disagreement we can't know that there are other deeply held points of view.

2. Yes...in my own read of many threads of late, some opinions expressed can mislead, and are misleading representations of Sikhi, and they should be corrected in clear language.

3. That will be offensive to some, but to feel offended is not a sign of a TOS violation. Even the use of words like "garbage" is not clearly a violation of TOS.

4. Clear communication may be hard to take. To say "I was upset by your post" is clear communication, and imho effectively asking the other side to reflect on the impact of his/her words. That is positive not negative as I see it, because it does further a dialog. 

5. The respect we owe to adherents of other faiths is necessary for learning to occur. That does not mean that we are duty bound to be agreeable when we disagree. That is asking everyone to tip toe around on broken glass, which is dishonest and even neurotic.

My recommendations: Go back to the thread topic and discuss it. Try to chose words carefully if we know that they will stoke an existing flame. Therefore, it is important to avoid giving offense. Then: Let's try to let some verbiage roll off our feathers. Some of us are always courteous in the extreme, others are courteous, but not in the extreme. It is a matter of personal style...we have all heard much worse in our offline lives. So, it is important not to take offense, or take everything to heart.  I am asking for some proportionality in our reactions. So far no one has been called a heretic or accused of beadbi. Repeating: Let's talk about the thread topic. Thanks.


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## seeker3k (Oct 10, 2011)

If every one take the topic as topic and don’t take it personal attack. Then we can discus the topic to full extent. People take things too personally. It could be their faith not built on truth. What I mean they don’t understand their faith fully.
We should discuss the topic on hand not the person who wrote it. Accusing the writer that he/she is atheist of agnostic or of other religion is not productive. We should not mix orange with apples when we discuss the post 
Giving reference of other religion is ok. But should not be emphasized too much. Sikhism is 500 year old it is about time we should take the responsibly of our own action. We should stop blaming other religion for what we are doing wrong. Self criticism is good way to fix the problem then  accusing others


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 10, 2011)

Brothers and sisters let us check which section of the forum we are in,

Sikh Philosophy Network      » Sikh Philosophy Network       »* Hard Talk   »*

Let us not act like "Hadwanas/Watermelons" but "Coconuts".  Me included :sippingcoffeemunda:

Cannot take the heat, watch what you say!  Think before you write as a core value in Sikhism.

My post was not addressed towards seekr3k or seeker9 or Sinner ji so let whoever else defend.

I take hard exceptions to such as in quoted by a learned Sikh veer,



> We can keep in mind that food can be considered as supplementary source of enegy whereas _Soul energy is the Real energy_ .Like Sun Energy is the Real Energy for vegitation but _water,mannure etc are supplement for growth_.


_Where does this appear in Sikhism or Gurbani._ _Armchair Einestonian antics in the name of Sikhism._



> We also learn that Soul can not be cut.destroyed by fire or drowned by water so such a thing can be eternal only.What transforms is the Jeev{Thought) in different forms and this JEEV(thought) along with Soul takes up a new journey untill merged with the infinite.


_I complemented seeker3k ji for sourcing this to be from other religions presented as Sikhism in this thread._



> Since Gurbani is _complete and perfect lyric_.


_Naturally leads to wave theories!_ _Gurbani visualizes creation to be in unison.  Unison does not lead to waves._ _This leads to respect for the sound and not the meaning and idolatry as a further extension._

It is perhaps worthwhile to define in commonly understandable terms what soul is.  For me personally,



> "Soul is the little changing inner self that we grow within us.  Sometimes we listen to it as inner voice, sometimes we see it as providing checks and balances on how we act out and most of the time this is what we spend most of out time with.  Sometimes having agreement, sometimes acting regardless, sometimes being indifferent".


Any comments on the definition of soul!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 11, 2011)

*Veer Ji Quoted*
'Soul is the little changing inner self that we grow within us. Sometimes we listen to it as inner voice, sometimes we see it as providing checks and balances on how we act out and most of the time this is what we spend most of out time with. Sometimes having agreement, sometimes acting regardless, sometimes being indifferent"._*Any comments on the definition of soul!*'_
*Bagga Ji is just trying to express his feelings on Soul and deepening the discourse on Soul , I don't like Q.A. unless I ask the questions my way is rhyme,*
*I am that which makes all mine ,*
*I am that which stands on time,* 
*I am that which is so sublime,*
*I am that which must be divine,*


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 11, 2011)

Joe {censored}er - Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood  HD      - YouTube

Joe {censored}er put his "soul" out in most of his renditions.

Enjoy.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 11, 2011)

Specific to the Topc,In Sikhism
Is there a Soul. ?

I Gurbani we can find the word ATMAA and this is reference for the Soul then Gurbani is not negating the existence of Soul.

Who created Soul?

All souls are created by Prabhu only.

Who Controls the Soul ?

All souls are controlled by Prabhu only.

The messages are in context of the topic not for offending any body.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 11, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your specific answers.

Some comments and if you may clarify,



> Is there a Soul. ?
> 
> I Gurbani we can find the word ATMAA and this is reference for the Soul then Gurbani is not negating the existence of Soul.


_Atmaa is also referred to or commonly understood as your inner self and English world "soul".__  Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities.__  We do not necessarily act on the basis of what our atmaa tells us or guides us.  This is the basis of a proverb in Punjabi "Andron kush horr atey bahron kush horr" and translated (People with duality living where the inside and outside are not in synch.)
_


> Who created Soul?
> 
> All souls are created by Prabhu only.


_As part of our act of creation._



> Who Controls the Soul ?
> 
> All souls are controlled by Prabhu only.


_In my humble understanding it is the other way around that as we grow up and understand the creator our inner soul becomes more like a consonant soul in reference to rest of creation or not.  Prabhu controls our souls as much as when we wake up when we set an alarm and brush in the morning._

Any comments welcome.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 11, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I myself have limited knowledge as with every one .I find myself incapable to present my views to your satisfaction and likings.You expect me to answer thaway you like which I dont know.
My only humble  suggestion is try to get the understanding of reference  meanings of three words GuR ,GuR with Aukad and GuR with Dulaikad Matra under the letter R .I assure you  will get to know better than me.You are ,No doubt an intelligent person, so dont waste your intelligence in negatives .There is always something positive in everyones message in this forum. We should always look for that.
With thanks
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Oct 11, 2011)

_In my humble understanding it is the other way around that as we grow up and understand the creator our inner soul becomes more like a consonant soul in reference to rest of creation or not. Prabhu controls our souls as much as when we wake up when we set an alarm and brush in the morning._ AMBERSARIAJI

All souls are controlled by Prabhu only. PRAKASHJI

If we were to theorize that the body is constantly demanding sensory pleasure, and the inner soul, the Guru inside you, is already in consonance,  could it be that it is the body that becomes in consonance with creation, rather than the soul. 

I have always felt that it is my body that is Manmukh, and my soul is already Gurmukh, and that is the battle, between body and soul.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 11, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your specific answers.
> 
> Some comments and if you may clarify,
> 
> ...


 

Dear Ambarsaria Ji

One thing I was uncertain about in your post was this bit:

_



Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities

Click to expand...

_ 
I thought your life experiences were responsible for that? Although I guess there is the old "Nature or nurture" debate as well....

Also with regard to Atmaa, and it is a genuine question on my part, is their a Param-atmaa and what is the relationship between the two?

Thanks
_ 
_


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 11, 2011)

seeker9 ji thanks for your post.



> One thing I was uncertain about in your post was this bit:Quote:_ <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset;" class="alt2"> Atmaa gives us a personality and our core qualities </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
> _
> I thought your life experiences were responsible for that? Although I  guess there is the old "Nature or nurture" debate as well....


_seeker9 you I am just sharing my life experiences and learning's as one goes along in time.  I sometimes use proverb as they are a collective wisdom succinctly paraphrased,

Saying is "you cannot hide your inner-self.  The lie detector test, etc., are all based on such.  So your inner self as it builds over time is the entity I define as "soul".  A child's soul is pure and it starts to take shape through interactions from the moment of birth.  A child of love, a child of scorn, a child of sadness and so on impinge upon the child through various interactions.  Inner self starts to build, wiring in the brain starts and we start to see visible elements of a soul.  A calming smile, a heartful laugh, and so on.  Taht becomes personality.
_


> Also with regard to Atmaa, and it is a genuine question on my part, is  their a Param-atmaa and what is the relationship between the two?
> Also with regard to Atmaa, and it is a genuine question on my part, is  their a Param-atmaa and what is the relationship between the two?


_Param-atmaa is the creator's soul.  We can look towards it and the qualities that are shown.  Since creator has no need to act different than what the soul is, what you see is what you get.

So Sikhism allows us to recognize such and use it to our advantage.  People say sometimes about someone, "He/she is God/Creator/Pamatmaa like".  It stands for that many practical ways the person is a close example of much that is good in the Creator.  Not a complete but practically in many ways.

_One that still puzzles me but I believe it may get proven one day that the seeds of even the deepest parts of ourselves are based on genetics, the helix of life.  I believe this also applies to the elements of soul that become full blown as we grow.  So in a way if souls are genetically linked, then we have continuation in parts of souls from generation to generation.  Not a complete re-incarnation or trans-migration (no one is a total ditto of someone else!) but changing but still connected from one to the other.  Very fascinating area in itself.Hope the above makes sense.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 11, 2011)

Can someone describe what Soul is to me?

1.Is it a limb?

2. Is it an organ?

3. Is it some kind of circuit breaker that switches itself on and off with the help of Mann in our lifetime?

4. Is it the conductor of our inner orchestra which knows when our inner piano needs to be listened to and when the cymbals must leave a message?

What is IT?

It is very important to define what Soul is before we can discuss what it does or does not and where it goes after we become dust to dust, ashes to ashes?

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 11, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji I don't know if you read my attempt (perhaps very novice at that) in this thread and here it goes from the following post,

(http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/37159-sikhism-there-soul-who-created-soul-5.html#post154580)

"Soul is the little changing inner self that we grow within us.   Sometimes we listen to it as inner voice, sometimes we see it as  providing checks and balances on how we act out and most of the time  this is what we spend most of out time with.  Sometimes having  agreement, sometimes acting regardless, sometimes being indifferent".                      

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 11, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Can someone describe what Soul is to me?
> 
> 1.Is it a limb?
> 
> ...


 
Dear Tejwant Ji

My attempt was to consider Soul as being a bit of the Creator within all living things and on the basis that everything in Creation is a form of energy, (not New Age energy but Physics!),  I went further down that route

However, Ishna Ji articulated it better than me with reference to Jyot etc


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## Seeker9 (Oct 11, 2011)

Dear Ambarsaria Ji

Thanks for the clarification and I have a better understanding of what you think. I will reflect on this more



> One that still puzzles me but I believe it may get proven one day that the seeds of even the deepest parts of ourselves are based on genetics, the helix of life. I believe this also applies to the elements of soul that become full blown as we grow. So in a way if souls are genetically linked, then we have continuation in parts of souls from generation to generation. Not a complete re-incarnation or trans-migration (no one is a total ditto of someone else!) but changing but still connected from one to the other. Very fascinating area in itself.Hope the above makes sense.



Now that is a radical thought! But as you say, DNA defines all our physical attributes right down to even if we have a tendency to be fat or thin and impacts on our mental attributes as well e.g genetic predispostion to mental illness, MS, Alzheimers etc. So having addressed the physical and mental, does it have any influence over the Soul?

Or is the Soul independant?

Great question!  Could be an interesting thread in its own right

Just extending the thought processes here ..if there is a genetic/parental contribution to Soul, would that have any impact on Karma, if Karma exists? (Incidentally, I have posted elsewhere on this forum that I have issues with Karma so I am not a fan of Karma but just asking the question)

Going off at a tangent again as you got me thinking here, what are the experiences of someone who is born deaf and blind? Is their physical link to Maya broken? Is it easier for them to focus inside? If a part of their Soul is passed on, what would the recipient gain?


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks: Ishna ji, Seeker9 ji, Ambarsaria ji.

I have a confession to make.

I do not have the faintest notion what Soul is.

I simply do not know.

Tejwant Singh


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## seeker3k (Oct 11, 2011)

Seems to me there is no soul (atma). There could not be great soul (parmatma).
If there is paramatma who created soul for the human. Then that parmatma must have created soul for animals and other life.
I have not seen any other life praying to parmatma. No other live do the naam simran to save them self or to merge back into joyt.
If so then all the religions got it all wrong?
Lot of good information came from all the posts
Just wondering!


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 11, 2011)

seeker3k ji here lies the core of the issue,


> If there is paramatma who created soul for the human. Then that parmatma must have created soul for animals and other life.
> I have not seen any other life praying to parmatma. No other live do the naam simran to save them self or to merge back into joyt.


_We just transpose human thoughts, mannerisms, ways of doing things and right away conclude.  Why should animals have the ways of man?  Why should fish learn swimming from a swimming instructor?  Why should a dog bark like a man talks?_

_It is preposterous of mankind (I am not picking on you, so please don't feel offended) to some how expect other life to be like it.  Why is there other life?  Part of creation mosaic.

_When people pray, they pray for understanding, bliss, happiness, etc., have we not seen animals seeking the same.  I have, and it is everywhere one just needs to notice.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 11, 2011)

SEEKER9 ji,
My response to your message 50 is as under.
As per my understanding Atamaa is a part of Parmatamma.All Souls(Atamaas) are degeneration portions SUPER SOUL (Paramatamaa).
Soul does not have any property of its own.It acquires properties in combination with Jeev so there is reference of Jeev atamaa.
We can notice a very interesting point in Gurbani.We do not find the use of word Parmatamaa but we do have the words Parmaatumu and Parmaatum.It would be interesting to understand these to have some clear idea about the view of Gurbani for the word Parmaatamaa.
As a matter of fact the concept of Atmaa /Parmatamaa is basically more dicussed  in Hindu Philosophy and other philosophies.We can find great volumes wrtiitn on the subject of Atamaa.
What I understand is that atamaa or Parmatamaa is not a subject of Sikh Philosophy.
so i would not go for such details as this may not be liked by many in the forum.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 11, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji may be review again the following,



> What I understand is that _atamaa_ or Parmatamaa is not a subject of Sikh Philosophy.


There are quite a few references to Atma (*ਆਤਮਾ*) in Sri Guru Granth Sahib in the following,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=punjabi

In terms of the limited check the following is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib too in reference to Parmatma,

*[SIZE=-1]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary[/SIZE]* [SIZE=-0] ਪਰਮਆਤਮਾ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ॥ {ਆਸਾ ੧, ਅਸ ੨੦, ੬:੧ (421)}। 

See the following for reference to Parmatma,
[/SIZE]


> [SIZE=-0]
> [/SIZE]http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=421&punjabi=t&id=19418#l19418
> 
> ਜਿਨੀ  ਆਤਮੁ  ਚੀਨਿਆ  ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ  ਸੋਈ  ॥
> ...



Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 11, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Thanks: Ishna ji, Seeker9 ji, Ambarsaria ji.
> 
> I have a confession to make.
> 
> ...




Dear Tejwant Ji

To be brutally honest, who on this forum does?

We are all hypothesising

I guess Sinner Ji pitched his view quite nicely when he said:


> Veera personally I don't recall, one day I will know the answer, but then I won't have time for the question.



Thanks

R


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## spnadmin (Oct 11, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SEEKER9 ji,
> 
> As a matter of fact the concept of Atmaa /Parmatamaa is basically more dicussed  in Hindu Philosophy and other philosophies.We can find great volumes wrtiitn on the subject of Atamaa.
> Prakash.s.Bagga




This is exactly the right note. To take it a bit further, to understand the meaning of aatma in the context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the word must be intepreted within the context of full shabads. Even a detailed study of one shabad would help teach the unique sense of Sikhi on the subject of soul.

Thanks to both Ambarsaria ji and to Prakash.s.Bagga ji


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 12, 2011)

With the Grace of the Soul


> To be brutally honest, who on this forum does?


One cannot know the soul as one comes to know a limb or organ or a friend or SPN member. The soul cannot be known in this sense of the word knowledge, of acquiring new content about the function and anatomy of a limb or organ. The soul cannot be known in this sense of the word knowledge, of acquiring new content as you find about the qualities of a friend or SPN member by meeting him, discussing the nature of soul with him and seeing how he responds and what he says.

The soul is there prior to any knowing so how can you know the soul by trying to know the soul? (meditate)

You *are *before you are a friend, father, mather, brother, sister. So how can you find out what you *are *if you look for yourself in those relationships. Those are reflections of you. Knowing those relfections does not provide knowledge about who you really are. Similarly, the soul cannot be found by looking at images/descriptions of the soul.

You *know *before you know friends and relations, science, art, math, sprirutality, religion, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji... The understanding of soul is so simple (the simplest thing) that as soon as you go from I *know *to "I know the soul" (for instance) the knowledge of soul is lost. 

You want to know the soul, and so you come here to ask on the forums, and wait till someone tells you what a soul is. How can they? As soon as they have began to describe it (if they truly know), the knowledge of the soul is lost. What they are referring to is just the reflection of the soul (found in their words), and I am sure you do not want reflections, you want the actual thing.

So you are better off trying to figure out what a soul is through these hints. You are better off going into solitude in a quiet room and find out *in yourself* what is there prior to knowing...


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 12, 2011)

Bhagat-teer Ji.





			
				Bhagat Singh said:
			
		

> You are before you are a friend, father, mather, brother, sister. So how can you find out what you *are *if you look for yourself in those relationships. Those are reflections of you. Knowing those relfectionsdoes not provide knowledge about who you really are.


Those relationships form ones identity in life , our perception is that we *are* that form that we see,what I mean is we take on the responsibility of being a father rather than 'becoming'one we are the same as before in essence but our values change.It does not confound or enlighten us it is just a fact.

You are an entity which exists *before,alongside ,after and remains** 'linked' to* *those* *physical aspects of** form by breath*.
We can't know it ,but we can realise it within ourselves ,because we are actually that which we are trying to discern ,who else can we hope to know our real self*.*On a lighter note, I know a singh who became a sinner who tried to be a Musketeer and now thinks he is a Pimp-ernel ,so as you see that is just not knowing what to call oneself.

I heard on the radio yesterday that almost 15% of pregnancies end in miscarriage do they have Souls?


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 12, 2011)

> Seeker9;154635]
> Now that is a radical thought! But as you say, DNA defines all our physical attributes right down to even if we have a tendency to be fat or thin and impacts on our mental attributes as well e.g genetic predispostion to mental illness, MS, Alzheimers etc. So having addressed the physical and mental, does it have any influence over the Soul?


_Seeker9 ji just my observation (not scientific or religious) that soul is representative of all your thought and sensory.  So as much as genetics and mental illness I don't know of scientific studies but for a layman observing it is very strongly so genetically._


> Or is the Soul independant?


_Again as soul has to be reflective of all I assume it can not be independent._


> Just extending the thought processes here ..if there is a genetic/parental contribution to Soul, would that have any impact on Karma, if Karma exists?


_Karma is a very dangeorus and exploitive concept.  It relates to the caste system, higher beings and lower beings based on past lives and re-incarnations and migrations from animal, insect and other souls to human souls, etc.  I will suggest, genetics is not Karma but is a universal rule of creation__ irrespective of Karma._



> Going off at a tangent again as you got me thinking here, what are the experiences of someone who is born deaf and blind?


_It is very hard to speak for other people's situations.  There is an observable fact about sensory faculties trying to compensate for lack of each other__.  There is no shortage of people who showed brilliance in their life when one of the faculties were impaired at birth or after._

Just to connect here is an example,

Stevie Wonder one of my favorite Singer/musician/composer who apparently in some songs plays all sounds on keyboard and remixes (incredible),

Stevie Wonder ~ Superstition      - YouTube



> Is their physical link to Maya broken?


_One has to know the inside of others to answer this.  I can't.  For me "Maya" stuff is personal like the "soul" and needs to be tackled individually, too much preaching and grand standing on it everywhere._



> Is it easier for them to focus inside? If a part of their Soul is passed on, what would the recipient gain?


_As the genetics of offspring is a combination of two soul mates, it is hard to predict any specific outcomes.  

In a way, if the above applies, it also totally rules out soul re-incarnation as a complete entity from one body to another._

Hope above answers are in the right context.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## seeker3k (Oct 12, 2011)

It is ironic, there are over 16000 members of SPN but only hand full members write in forum. I am curious why others don’t reply or write.
In my interaction with major religions majority of the people admit there is soul (atma).
I have talked with many Sikhs in India Uk and USA Canada. Most Sikhs believe that there is soul. But here hardly any one admits that there is soul.
Maybe some don’t want to get into debate knowing their belief be chattered. 
Soul and reincarnation is intertwining. But the 3 major religions do not admit there is incarnation. Sikhism is from Hinduism maybe that’s why most Sikhs believe in soul and reincarnation.
If majority of the people believe in soul and few don’t. Are the majority right or few are right? Most people will say if majority is right.
There for ages majority believed that earth was flat and sun goes around the earth. The earth was the center of the universe. Majority did not even know that moon was made of land. It took one man to declare that it is the earth that revolves around the sun. Pandats knew that earth revolve around the sun but they hid it from public. Even still now few people in India still believe that sun revolve around the earth. No one can change their belief.
What if one says that he (I use he as person not man) knows and know the soul. And he says he have seen his past life? People want proof. There is no proof of reincarnation. Those who know are not into proving.  People do not want to know the truth. It will break their belief.
DNA and Karma is same thing. Then it was called Karma now it is called DNA. Pandat used it to make money. Pandats was always in search for new ways to make money and control public.
If one studies both with open mind then he can understand it is same thing.

Those who have experience, no proof is needed
Those don’t have experience. No proof is enough


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 12, 2011)

seeker3k ji some comments.  Please ignore my directness as Ithat is easiest way for me to write or respond.  I try not to sugar coat.

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> It is ironic, there are over 16000 members of SPN but only hand full members write in forum. I am curious why others don’t reply or write.


 _Same deal as “How many books have you written versus how many books have you read”?_



> Most Sikhs believe that there is soul. But here hardly any one admits that there is soul.


 _This is a personal matter with many, so I respectfully accept that many do not want to share such thoughts with you and such may not even be occupying much of their thinking time.  We learn through life that what we may consider brilliant and important may be neither to someone else or even the majority.
_



> Maybe some don’t want to get into debate knowing their belief be chattered.


 _I assume you mean shattered (not chattered).  In case that is not the case I will say, "Who wants to chatter with someone who is looking for win-lose!"  We need to sometimes look at ourselves._




> Sikhism is from Hinduism maybe that’s why most Sikhs believe in soul and reincarnation.


 _Here we go again how much Sikhism has adopted from what.  I would have used more flowery language but I bite my tongue for good of spn.  Your scientific survey among Sikhs about reincarnation may be a little flawed._



> Are the majority right or few are right?


 _Truth is not necessarily known by how many people believe in it.  If pig meat is proven scientifically to be no different than cow meat, cow meat is shown  not different than chicken meat, and protein in soybeans is similar to both.  Do you seriously believe that such will get Muslims to eat pork or Indian majority to start eating cows!_



> DNA and Karma is same thing. Then it was called Karma now it is called DNA.


 _This is very interesting analogy._ _I know some religions claim that they discovered everything that was there to be discovered thousands of years ago._ lol


Sat Sri Akal.  mundahug


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 13, 2011)

> Soul and reincarnation is intertwining. But the 3 major religions do not admit there is incarnation. Sikhism is from Hinduism maybe that’s why most Sikhs believe in soul and reincarnation.



Not sure what "3 major religions" you are talking about. Also I think you mean "reincarnation" rather than "incarnation." There is a difference.

 However, the concept of reincarnation is not consistent with the dogma of Christianity or Islam. Reincarnation does not fit either with the definitions of atonement for sins or with the resurrection of the body in the final days of judgement. More about that if anyone is interested.

One compares apples and oranges when one tests the beliefs of adherents of Sikhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, or any other dharmic path, by using Christianity, Judaism or Islam as the yardstick.

Beliefs about the soul in Judaism are not firmly decreed as part of Jewish dogma, though there will be clear statements made by one or another religious scholar.This then affects Jewish beliefs about the soul, and about the soul's connection to the hereafter, or life after death. In other words Jewish dogma is not set in these matters as found in other faiths or belief systems. Much depends on the historical era in which Jewish scholars wrote, and/or on the tradition of Judaism that a Jew follows.


These links demonstrate the extent to which Jews differ amongst themselves on both the nature of the soul and life after death.

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm
See the section on The World to Come at this link    
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Eschatology
See Judaism at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife#Judaism


Last but not least ........ Sikhism is not "from Hinduism." And much like Judaism, Sikhism has no required dogma or belief about the soul or reincarnation. Please do not insist that it does. Please do not generalize from one or another grouping of Sikhs and their beliefs to the quom at large. Thank you.


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 13, 2011)

This is Great!

I came here as an atheist, which meant that I embraced the following

1. there is no god
2. all actions are done for the right reason, not for pleasing some celestial beardy
3. At death, you die, period
4. You operate within the rest of the world, you may do wrong and get away with it, but ultimately you have to deal with yourown conscience, again, not Mr celestial beardy, some of those actions will have consequences, good or bad
5. The meaning of life is to find a balance between what you want to do, and what you should do

And now, thanks to many many people on this forum, I have become a Sikh!!, which means the following

1. there is no god
2. all actions are done for the right reason, not for pleasing some celestial beardy
3. At death, you die, period
4. You operate within the rest of the world, you may do wrong and get away with it, but ultimately you have to deal with yourown conscience, again, not Mr celestial beardy, some of those actions will have consequences, good or bad
5. The meaning of life is to find a balance between what you want to do, and what you should do_
6. There are teachers that are able to guide you, so you do not feel alone, these teachers have compiled a book, that if you read it, you will be able to experience and validate what is the truth, and what is not, the book is so beautiful and accurate, that it makes the truth come alive, so much, that you will feel you are sitting in front of all 10 Gurus while they instruct and teach you, not as a god, or a super being, but as normal men who achieved the impossible, and are now willing to help you do the same

_I came here looking for more than this, for eternal life, and a god I could personalise, I am now happy to acknowledge, after some thought, and reading of the above, that a soul is a combination of knowledge gained through DNA (via birth), interaction with creation, and a few personal wild cards thrown in for fun. It encapsilates 'you', and when you die, it is integrated back into creation through burial, burning. 

So this it, ladies and gentlemen, for the current setup that defines you and is you, dies when you die. I am not lauding this as the definitive answer, but it is certainly the one that I intend to live by for the rest of my days, or until a close study of the SGGS proves otherwise


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 13, 2011)

Veer Ji 
Your claim started like this: 





			
				Harry Haller said:
			
		

> 1. there is no god


 
Guru Nanak's claim started like this:

*'There is one God'*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zQeXuV-A6Jw


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## Harry Haller (Oct 13, 2011)

SPji, 

there is no god, the translation of Ek Onkar deserves its own thread :interestedkudi:


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## Seeker9 (Oct 13, 2011)

harry haller said:


> SPji,
> 
> there is no god, the translation of Ek Onkar deserves its own thread :interestedkudi:



Good call

Yes, there is no patriarchal celestial beardy one who is temperamental, selfish and moody at times wrathful (e.g Old Testament) whilst being benevolent at other times

Troubled chap....perhaps He could meditate more for some inner peace....


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 13, 2011)

Seeker 3k in the Title of thread said:
			
		

> *In Sikhism, is there a Soul? Who created the Soul? Who controls the Soul?*


Veera another way of looking at it is

*In Sikhism is there a Soul who created the Soul, [&] who controls the Soul?*


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 13, 2011)

Seeker9 said:


> Good call
> 
> Yes, there is no patriarchal celestial beardy one who is temperamental, selfish and moody at times wrathful (e.g Old Testament) whilst being benevolent at other times
> 
> Troubled chap....perhaps He could meditate more for some inner peace....



or maybe he could find Sikhismlol


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## spnadmin (Oct 13, 2011)

> there is no god


 in Sikhism? How is it that I never came to that conclusion?


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 13, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> in Sikhism? How is it that I never came to that conclusion?


spnadmin ji my comment for consideration,
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> *ੴ* *ਸਤਿ* *ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥*
> 
> *ArQ:- *Akwl purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> God/creator is one and is known as the eternal being, the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.



Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 13, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> in Sikhism? How is it that I never came to that conclusion?



I think what Harry Ji meant is there is no beardy patriarchal God that punishes generations and appreciates burnt offerings and begging prayers.....

That is what I think....


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 13, 2011)

harry haller said:


> SPji,
> 
> there is no god, the translation of Ek Onkar deserves its own thread :interestedkudi:


At Harry Haller ji's service in return for his services,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html

Look forward to seeing spn sangat there.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Oct 13, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

Yes....





> ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> 
> 
> God/creator is one and is known as the eternal being, the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.



That is how I came to the conclusion that there is a God in Sikhi. japposatnamwaheguru: Of course I can put [God] in brackets as I frequently do because the word [God] does seem to give some of us hives. In brackets, the word can be used provisionally. Apologies


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## seeker3k (Oct 13, 2011)

SPN ji,

Yes you are right it is my mistake. Sikhism is not from Hinduism. 
Sikhs came down from heaven to save the mankind


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## Harry Haller (Oct 14, 2011)

seeker3kji, 

there is no heaven in sikhism 

Adminji, 

I have a real pet hate for the word 'god' I cannot read the word without associating it with either an abrahamic beardy, or a Hindu style action warrior. I maintain in conversation there is no God, just a force, an energy, that is dual in everything, and the name of this energy is 'truth'

Seeker9ji, 

yes, absolutely, my 'god' does not play mind games or act like in a manner that I am trying to defeat, namely anger, ego, etc

Ambersariaji, I look forward to debate on your new thread

peacesignkaur


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 14, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> SPN ji,
> 
> Yes you are right it is my mistake. Sikhism is not from Hinduism.
> Sikhs came down from heaven to save the mankind


seeker3k ji I see lot of disdain and proving a point and showing arrogant stance towards others.  What is your point?  Are you trying to prove Sikhism has more to do with Hinduism than people admit and you are here to make people admit?  Please be clear.

Here is Sikh Gurbani, written by a Hindu with Sikh values, and sung by a Muslim,

Awal Allah Noor Upaya - Kalam Baba Bahgat Kabir ji - Alam Lohar (Audio)      - YouTube

By the way when you address spnadmin ji like a child you win no brownies other than in your own mind.  I wish I had half the intellect of spnadmin ji.

Brother/sister take the chip of your shoulder and move on.  There is no point in trying to backtrack lineages as the dirt you and me were created from and are going to merge with does not have religious alliances and only beliefs do!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 14, 2011)

harry haller said:


> SPji,
> 
> there is no god, the translation of Ek Onkar deserves its own thread :interestedkudi:



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you. There is no god in Sikhi as a deity the way many religions define "him".

For me: 

What people call GOD is actually Creative Energy- Ajuni Saibung-that is in organic and in  inorganic, what the religiousos call omnipresent while not truly understanding  its meaning.

Ik Ong Kaar  to me means there is only One Source of ALL there _IS_.


Tejwant Singh


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 14, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:
			
		

> By the way when you address spnadmin ji like a child you win no brownies other than in your own mind. I wish I had half the intellect of spnadmin ji


 
Veer Ji It is hard to know how one should address Spnadmin, as I have discerned that she is quite like God, in that she seems to be omnipresent aside from this facet she is an entity with atleast four intellects ,so if you wish for half you would have atleast twice that of me.If he implied anything forgive him,I always look at it that Sikhi is my mother,Hinduism is my distant cousin.But we are still related.


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## spnadmin (Oct 14, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> SPN ji,
> 
> Yes you are right it is my mistake. Sikhism is not from Hinduism.
> Sikhs came down from heaven to save the mankind



I hope seeker3k ji that I am not alone in saying that I have no idea what you mean. Sorry


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 14, 2011)

Harry ji

You words reinforce my belief that the idea that there is no [god] in Sikhism or that Sikhs are atheists comes from an aversion, but it is an aversion to labels and the deeper discussion has a hard time bubbling forth from time to time. And that is why from time to time [god] ends up in brackets. But thanks for your explanation.



> Adminji,
> 
> I have a real pet hate for the word 'god' I cannot read the word without associating it with either an abrahamic beardy, or a Hindu style action warrior. I maintain in conversation there is no God, just a force, an energy, that is dual in everything, and the name of this energy is 'truth'


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 15, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Harry ji
> 
> You words reinforce my belief that the idea that there is no [god] in Sikhism or that Sikhs are atheists comes from an aversion, but it is an aversion to labels and the deeper discussion has a hard time bubbling forth from time to time. And that is why from time to time [god] ends up in brackets. But thanks for your explanation.




Adminji, 

well said and spot on.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 15, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji It is hard to know how one should address Spnadmin, as I have discerned that she is quite like God, in that she seems to be omnipresent aside from this facet she is an entity with atleast four intellects ,so if you wish for half you would have atleast twice that of me.If he implied anything forgive him,I always look at it that Sikhi is my mother,Hinduism is my distant cousin.But we are still related.


Sinner ji I love Bhangra hope you enjoy the following along with your buddy Seeker3k.welcomemunda

Aao Ji Aya Nu ({[HD]})      - YouTube

Royal Wedding#1      - YouTube

Sat Sri Akal.


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## skeptic.freethinker1 (Nov 3, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> Where was the soul before the birth? Where will it go after one die?



It didn't come from anywhere and didn't go anywhere because it doesn't exist.


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 20, 2012)

*Click here: Spiritual Reality - Transcribed | dotSUB* 
*.*



*Click here: Where do we go after death*
*.*


*click on picture*
*

*

*Spiritual Reality *


I found this video to be very educational I hope you too find it so.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 20, 2012)

This is NOT GURMATT or sanctioned by GURBANI and SGGS.
Baba Bolteh theh kahan gayeh ??? kaun Mooa reh KAUN MOOa ??


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 20, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> This is NOT GURMATT or sanctioned by GURBANI and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> Baba Bolteh theh kahan gayeh ??? kaun Mooa reh KAUN MOOa ??


Veer Gyani Jarnail Singh ji please help me.  You are an ocean of patience while I brim with fire many a times.  Please how can a 61 year old Sikh be so off the path?  Somethings like this I just cannot understand.

Please help.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2012)

Ambarsariaji

We have already established Amarjitji is more a multi faith devotee, and as such as postings should be taken in that ilk. 

I am not quite sure why he is posting them here, perhaps he would be better off posting them somewhere where they may be appreciated more, and where they are in tune with the forum itself. It is a shame that someone who feels they have a message to get across could be so out of tune with the amount of offence that is also being caused

Amarjitji, please change your adherent, at present you will only end up confusing people that these opinions and theories have some place in Sikhism

peacesign


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

skeptic.freethinker1 said:


> It didn't come from anywhere and didn't go anywhere because it doesn't exist.


 
From where the waves on the water of sea comes,and where do they go?

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Ambarsariaji
> 
> We have already established Amarjitji is more a multi faith devotee, and as such as postings should be taken with that ilk.
> 
> ...


 
Please check my   adherent 
I have changed my status to hindu sikh snatan sikh
one who respects all religions. If there was a section which emraced all religions I would have clicked this one.

For  there is only one creator 
The same for all
My love is for all ir-respective of your religion.

The soul has been reincarnated many times in this wheel of life.

Chruning as Moslems, Hindus Sikhs Christian , etc 

I love Sikhism as I am born to Sikh parents in this life.
I love Guru Nanak and his True teachings
which come through to me also through meditation with Baba Nanak.

Please do not forget :

# Guru Nanak believes in One God who has infinite names and qualities and who is the same for all religions. Guru Nanak believes in equality of all human beings irrespective of color,gender,origin,race etc. Guru Nanak believes in inward devotion to God through one's heart rather than external rituals and ceremonies. 

The above are few of the things Guru Nanak believes in. 

He taught others to believe in the above things too.

Amarjit


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## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2012)

In that case I respect your views as a Sanatan Sikh, I hope we can find some common ground  that we can all agree with and move on together


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

It is surprising to see how gracefully we accept the classification of Sikh as Hindu Sikh,SanatanSikh...and so.so.
Cant we have only a GurSikh who is enshrined with all basic attributes of teachings of SGGS .
It seems to be hard to find any such GurSikh.? 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

We can look the following Sabad as

ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮਾ ਬੋਲੈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਏਕਲ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੁੰਜਰ ਚੀਟੀ ਭਾਜਨ ਹੈਂ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਅਸਥਾਵਰ ਜੰਗਮ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਮ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਏਕਲ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰਾਖੁ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਅਉਰ ਤਜਹੁ ਸਭ ਆਸਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਕਾਮਾ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 988}
This Sabad is giving the message as what is that speaks in all forms.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2012)

ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮਾ ਬੋਲੈ ॥
सभै घट रामु बोलै रामा बोलै ॥
Sabẖai gẖat rām bolai rāmā bolai.
Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks.

ਰਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
राम बिना को बोलै रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Rām binā ko bolai re. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Who else speaks, other than the Lord? ||1||Pause||

ਏਕਲ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੁੰਜਰ ਚੀਟੀ ਭਾਜਨ ਹੈਂ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥
एकल माटी कुंजर चीटी भाजन हैं बहु नाना रे ॥
Ėkal mātī kunjar cẖītī bẖājan haiŉ baho nānā re.
Out of the same clay, the elephant, the ant, and the many sorts of species are formed.

ਅਸਥਾਵਰ ਜੰਗਮ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਮ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
असथावर जंगम कीट पतंगम घटि घटि रामु समाना रे ॥१॥
Asthāvar jangam kīt paṯangam gẖat gẖat rām samānā re. ||1||
In stationary life forms, moving beings, worms, moths and within each and every heart, the Lord is contained. ||1||

ਏਕਲ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰਾਖੁ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਅਉਰ ਤਜਹੁ ਸਭ ਆਸਾ ਰੇ ॥
एकल चिंता राखु अनंता अउर तजहु सभ आसा रे ॥
Ėkal cẖinṯā rākẖ ananṯā a▫or ṯajahu sabẖ āsā re.
Remember the One, Infinite Lord; abandon all other hopes.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਕਾਮਾ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥
प्रणवै नामा भए निहकामा को ठाकुरु को दासा रे ॥२॥३॥
Paraṇvai nāmā bẖa▫e nihkāmā ko ṯẖākur ko ḏāsā re. ||2||3||
Naam Dayv prays, I have become dispassionate and detached; who is the Lord and Master, and who is the slave? ||2||3||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
Pl look at another Sabad and compare the message of this wth previous one

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਆਸਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਿਆਪਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਮੋਹਿਤ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਫੇਨ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਰੁ ਸੁਪਨ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਸਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਮਨਸਾ ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੀ ਜਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥ ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਏਕ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 485}

You can also listen to a Bhajan Sung by ASHA ji in Hindi Movie "KAJAL" as TORA MUN DARPAN KAHLAYE..........

With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is surprising to see how gracefully we accept the classification of Sikh as Hindu Sikh,SanatanSikh...and so.so.
> Cant we have only a GurSikh who is enshrined with all basic attributes of teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> It seems to be hard to find any such GurSikh.?
> Prakash.S.Bagga



To gracefully accept different classifications is what being a Gursikh is all about, by the very nature of not accepting is going against what the very essence of Sikhism 

A Gursikh does not have a monopoly on Mukti, however, I believe there is more chance of finding Mukti, as described by Guruji, by being consistent with Guruji's teachings. This is a definitive and well mapped route that is open to all, with a guaranteed pass rate provided one follow the course, and does the coursework. 

However if one stumbles across Mukti by other methods, who are we to judge
I remember at school there were always people that needed little schooling or guidance, they were naturals, I am not fortunate enough to be one of them so I am careful to follow the syllabus in its entirety


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 21, 2012)

The problem is mainly becasue we Sikhs of Guru nanak Ji simply REFUSE to  follow what HE says..we prefer what the old traditionally accepted ways  said..the Brahmins..the yogis, the everybody else....GURU NANAK REJECTS  ALL those 110%..NOT 100 but 110%.

Birth Death..people take this as Natural Birth (baby born)..and Death as  body lifeless..BUT Guru Ji has a different outlook as well...( Besides  the Natural birth-death recycling process of Nature)..

Guru nanak ji declares..AAkhan jeevan..VISREHN..Mar jaavan.. ਆਖਾ ਜੀਵਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਉ॥
 ਰਾਗ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪੰਨਾ ੯   Raag asa mahalla 1 page 9.


   This BIRTH and DEATH is NOT the natural life/death  of the Body..this is something entirely different and which NO ONE Talks  about..except GURU NANAK.


   GURMATT is the ONLY Path that deals WITH THIS  WORLD..our Present LIFE..and Promises NO heavens,  beautiful  damsels,Virgins, golden mansions, rivers of honey and milk etc etc etc..  It doesnt promise you will get to "meet" your smiling Granddaddy,  granny mum brother etc who have died and are in Heaven awaiting  YOU...NOTHING OF THAT SORT. It also doesnt say you will roast in Hell,  you will be cut from limb to limb..you will this and that in HELL...No  Inducements and no punishments..Raaj na chahon Mukat na chahon..only  PREET of His Charans..the love of FOLLOWING and Practising HIS Teachings  IN THIS LIFE.
   IN FACT Gurbani is Not an IOTA concerned  with,..."life after death"..its concenrnd with HERE and NOW....see how  beautifully its written.. 
ਪਹਿਲਾ ਮਰਣੁ ਕਬੂਲਿ, ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਛਡਿ ਆਸ॥
 ਹੋਹੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ, ਤਉ ਆਉ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਪਾਸਿ॥ 1॥
 ਰਾਗ ਮਾਰੂ ਮ: 5 {ਪੰਨਾ 1102}  ACCEPT "DEATH"..and Leave  any hopes of LIFE...become the lowest of the LOW and come to ME..This is  WHY..the worlds HARSHEST TORTURES to the HUMAN BODY couldnt chnage a  Single SIKH to CONVERT....because they had already DIED while  LIVING...Not doing "good deeds..daan donating to Brahmins etc.etc.." in  order to get into "heaven"...they were already in HEAVEN while  ALIVE....Bhai Mati dass being SAWED ALIVE was in HEAVEN because His GURU  was in front of him..looking at HIM was HEAVEN...
       All religions teach/induce/FRIGHTEN the  LIVING..that AFTER DEATH will come all the rewards..the punishments..the  joons..the reincarnations etc etc...
       GURMATT TEACHES THIS LIFE...here and NOW.

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਛੋਡਿ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਰਸ, ਇਤੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਿਹਚਉ ਮਰਣਾ॥
 ਰਮਈਆ ਜਪਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ, ਅਨਤ ਜੀਵਣ ਬਾਣੀ, ਇਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰਣਾ॥
 ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਪੰਨਾ ੯੨--Bhagat Kabir Sri  raag Page 92-  Bhagat  Kabir calls those "DEAD"..they who have been  engrossed in lifes pleasures.kaam krodh etc etc....and they ALIVE...they  who FOLLOW the Naam in their Daily Lives....they FLOAT ACROSS the Ocean  of Maya....this is talking about the HERE and NOW..the PHYSICAL  BODY...not the ...whatever happens after death...( no body knows and  claims are all unsubstantiated because not a single person has ever come  back from the dead.). One of Jarnail Singh Bhinderawalsh fav quotes  was..I dont fear PHYSICAL DEATH..but i do fear AATMIC DEATH..becoming a  COWARD..giving up my Principles..my Naam..my dharam..i fear MORAL  DEATH...Cowards die a THOUSAND DEATHS..and this is not the death that  takes one to the funeral parlour....THIS is the DEATH that GURBANI is  concerned about...
           NO ONE can ever do anything to STOP the  Natural laws..DEATH comes and has come to ALL...no matter if they  claimed to be Son of God..or His last messenger..or  Prophets..or people  like Lazarus raised from the "dead" still DIED again....and GURBANI is  NOT concerned about.."keeping you alive for ever..its all about ensuring  you are "ALIVE" morally and not sinking into the depths of  Immorality..animal behaviour, zalim, cruel, faithless, rapists,  murderers, looters of paraya haak..etc etc.... 

           Gurbani is to teach one how to be a HUMAN  DAILY..and not a dog..greedy...elephant..kaamee  lusty...donkey..stupid...pig..gluttony..etc etc etc..Gurbani doesnt say  and is not concerned about a person being LUSTY while alive just so that  he can be frightened into assuming he will be born a PIG after he  dies...and that fright will change him/stop his lusty behaviour....no  jios..Gurbani teaches How to avoid being LUSTY while alive..and thus not  be a PIG in Human form..Kartoot passu ki manas Jaat !!


           Each of us has seen a Log fire  burning..Punjabis celebrate Lohri....so they should be familiar with  this...when ever a Log fire is disturbed...one cna watch how sparks fly  up..and then back into the same Fire...Guru Amardass Ji gives such an  example...   
ਲੋਭੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ॥
 ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਏ ਆਪਣੀ, ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਵਣਿਆ॥ 3॥
 ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੨੦ – Maajh mahalla 3 page 120...a  man full of greed, lobh, anger, pride....is BORN into those daily each  MORNING when he awakes...he LIVES his 24 hours engrossed in those greed,  kaam, krodh, lobh, moh hankaar. ..and when at night he puts his head  down to sleep..HE DIES engrossed in those..and thus he is EFFECTIVELY  WASTING HIS LIFE...on a DAILY BASIS !! This GURBANI is PRACTICAL..all  the person has to do to stop being BORN and DIE daily..is to CUT out and  REMOVE the cause of his daily birth/death...while LIVING...and become a  GURMUKH. This si the Goal of GURMATT..to transform a manmukh into  GURMUKH while ALIVE....


               TO really get the true Divine Message of gurbani one needs a A PARADIGM SHIFT....which  most are unable to do becasue of the weight of excess baggage we have  been surrounded with from the earlier messengers, brahmins, etc  etc..GURU NANAK gave a Brand new GYAAN..110% NEW.   
ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਣਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਕੀਆ॥
 ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਮਰਿ ਰਹੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਥੀਆ॥
 ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪੰਨਾ ੪੨੦—  Asa mah 1 page 420...The world  trats the physically dead as 'dead"..THAT is Natural law of the Creator  and in HIS Domain..not man's...the really DEAD is one who has REMOVED  the I and the ME..and the EGO from his daily jeevan...life...and such a  person NEVER DIES !!..and so if he never dies..how is he going to be  reborn ?? Its clear the GURU is talking about this LIFE....because no  man can over rule the creators Laws..on bodily death...and what happens  then is also the Creators domain.


                   Apologies for not giving cut and pastes form srigranth org etc because i dont buy those...any one interested can go by the page numbers provided to search there.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
With all due respect to your message I would like to share a Sabad as
ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੮ ਦੁਪਦੇ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਉ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਉ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥ ਇਹ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਰਲੋਕਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਮੋਹਿ ਰਖਵਾਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਬਚਨੁ ਬਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ ਜਲਿ ਨਹੀ ਡੂਬੈ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਲੇਵੈ ਭਾਹਿ ਨ ਸਾਕੈ ਜਾਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਨਿਰਧਨ ਕਉ ਧਨੁ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਕਉ ਟਿਕ ਮਾਤ ਦੂਧੁ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਲੇ ॥ ਸਾਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਿਰਪਾਲੇ ॥੨॥੧॥੩੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 679}

In this Sabad Gurbanee is clearly giving the message for THIS WORLD and SOME OTHER WORLD too.You can rectify me if my understanding is wrong here.

With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2012)

ਇਹ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਰਲੋਕਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਮੋਹਿ ਰਖਵਾਲੇ ॥੧॥
 इह लोकि परलोकि संगि सहाई जत कत मोहि रखवाले ॥१॥ 
Ih lok parlok sang sahā▫ī jaṯ kaṯ mohi rakẖvāle. 
||1|| In this world and the world beyond, God, my succour is with me and protects me everywhere.

MY own take on this Prakashji is that Guruji is once again mentioning a base point for people of the time, in the same way that Hindu Deities are mentioned, Hindu concepts are also mentioned. If one were to embrace the concept of world beyond as definitive, than one would also have to embrace that Shiva actually exists too, so the question I would ask you is do you believe that Shiva exists? If you do not, than you have answered your own question


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> ਇਹ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਰਲੋਕਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਮੋਹਿ ਰਖਵਾਲੇ ॥੧॥
> इह लोकि परलोकि संगि सहाई जत कत मोहि रखवाले ॥१॥
> Ih lok parlok sang sahā▫ī jaṯ kaṯ mohi rakẖvāle.
> ||1|| In this world and the world beyond, God, my succour is with me and protects me everywhere.
> ...


 
As  such there seems to be no reference of Hindu concept unless you have been informed like that and you have accepted this.
Pl also look at the following Sabad for your reference
ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਏ ॥ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਏਕਸ ਸਿਉ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੁਝਾਏ ॥੨੬॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 920}
Pl take a note of the concept Siv -Sakati .
Now Siv-Sakati is a Hindu concept being accepted as creation of the Creator.
I think we should see the context of Gurbanee with an open mind.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2012)

The interpretation I am sticking by is that these are cultural references that do NOT validate the existence of the concepts or deities mentioned


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> The interpretation I am sticking by is that these are cultural references that do NOT validate the existence of the concepts or deities mentioned


Let us shake our booties and recognize the art of a teacher as that Guru ji perfected to get across to all around.  The following video off topic by design just skull candy to remedy myopia in thinking.  It is incredible to see the expression and body language of the white folks in the audience in the first video.  The artist got through against all this.  Our spiritual "Daddies", our Guru jis were very KOOL cheeringmunda

BONEY M - DADDY COOL      - YouTube

Bob Marley- Could you be loved      - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5gNYVia2rg 
Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> The interpretation I am sticking by is that these are cultural references that do NOT validate the existence of the concepts or deities mentioned


 
I think there should be some accepted criterion of validation.We can not validate any concept of our own and classify it accordingly.
Any way it all depends on personal way of thinking as set by the Creator.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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