# What Is God?



## Janpreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Waheguru Ji,

Please help me understand what Guru ji is describing in mool mantar(mangla-charan)

Characteristics of God given by Guru Nanak Sahib in mool mantar :

*Ik Onkar*  : God is only one and is infinite

*Satnaam* : His/Her (genderless) existence is true

*Karta Purakh* : He is the creator of the universe and he resides in everything

*Nirbhu* : He has no fear

*Nirvair* : He has no hatred

*Akal murat* :  His existence cannot be destroyed

*Ajuni*  :  He does not reincarnate or born in human form or in any species

*Saibhan *:  He came into existence by himself.

*Gur Parsad* : He can only be realized by guru’s grace.

I  am trying to wrap my head around what Guru Nanak Sahib is describing  here. Is it some sort of super being? Or some sort of energy? Or is it  simply ‘the nature’? What are your thoughts?

Bhul Chuk di Kheema


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## Rory (Aug 27, 2012)

Janpreet I feel that the old Chinese philosopher/sage, Lao Tzu, taught a lot of the same things as the Gurus. I feel that beliefs about God vary from Sikh-to-Sikh, and for this reason you will get a variety of answers; I feel like Lao Tzu's book_ Tao Te Ching _talks about the Tao in ways that Sikhs could relate to as regards the Guru.

_Tao Te Ching_, Chapter 25 
"*1* There was something undefined and complete, coming into existence before Heaven and Earth. How still it was and formless, standing alone, and undergoing no change, reaching everywhere and in no danger (of being exhausted)! It may be regarded as the Mother of all things.
*2* I do not know its name, and I give it the designation of the Tao (the Way or Course). Making an effort (further) to give it a name I call it The Great."

When I think of Guru I think of something that is not quite a being and not quite a force, it just _is_ and _does_ what it does, without needing to think about it or needing to feel emotion about it.
It is really a hard one to answer and though you will get some great insight from people on here I think it is something nobody can explain by words.

:singhsippingcoffee:


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## Harry Haller (Aug 27, 2012)

I would go with a life force, an energy, which is why sangat should be so important, to have a number of likeminded individuals all with a similar energy, all in consonance. 

Although other than this forum, I have yet to find such a sangat...........


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Aug 27, 2012)

> Is it some sort of super being? Or some sort of energy? Or is it simply ‘the nature’? What are your thoughts?


 
He is the Super. Natural. Energy. Thoughts. Being.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 27, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> He is naturally the Super Energy Thought Being.


 
surely 'it' is naturally the Super Energy Thought Being


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 27, 2012)

Try to understand A Perfect Vibrating Wave of A Divine Element.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Janpreet (Aug 27, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Try to understand A Perfect Vibrating Wave of A Divine Element.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga




veer ji please explain it in detail.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Aug 27, 2012)

> Although other than this forum, I have yet to find such a sangat..



Harry ji, take 2 months off and spend time in Hyderabad's Khalsa House of Kondapur 

Or even rent a place in Amritsar.


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## Ajuni (Aug 27, 2012)

From what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and my own existence to understand the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has taught me it is that it is the ecstasy you feel within your very being in the very moments that one is truly able to breathe in beauty that surrounds them instead of stressing oneself with the reality of the world/your human situation. 
What I've gathered is that it is love/the feeling of love. The vibrating and electrical sensation one feels within their body/vessel, the one which makes every hair stand on end. 
A constant adrenaline rush, I haven't been able to harness this awareness/feeling for extended periods of time but I think with practice and contemplation of the true beauty/essence around me I can be one with this sensation. 
But I have only tasted a tip of the iceberg, because I am unaware of how endless this ecstasy can be. 
It removes hatred from my soul and allows me to engulf and send out unconditional love to people in my life who perhaps require more light in order to dispel their own darkness or who bring out the darkness in myself. 
We are all nirguna but we are also all surguna. 

These are my interpretations through my reality.
peacesignkaur

It is love that creates, it is love which removes hatred, it is love  which overcomes obstacles. Passion is eternal love, one that does not  "die."
It is to be able to recognize the connection between yourself and the  whole and tune in to that connection in order to spread your light when  one from the whole is near darkness. 
I believe we are all on a journey to learn and understand our inner  lights/spirits/souls and strengthen them for when the time comes to  merge(death) the spirit goes where to light or darkness? (I'm just  having these epiphanies as I'm typing) The more light within the  spirit..then it goes to be with the light? The darker (through maya[attachment to reality and material things/gain..as if it is your only purpose..enough to be ruthless to fellow beings/illusion]-illusion created to purify the soul? the self? the WaheGuru...the highest form of self the self with all the potential waiting to be released??? again that was myself having an revelation of what maya/illusion relates to when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dicusses maya..?) the  soul must stay to reincarnate..and see whether it gets wrapped in the web of maya/illusion? I think i might be going off on my own  tangent because I have not read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji multiple  times like some of my fellow Sikhis. 

When I am one with waheguru I stumble upon instances and coincidences  where my experiences have assisted fellow beings who have come into my  life for a brief moment or for longer instances. The qualities of  Waheguru are with me at that moment and guide me to assist my fellow  journeyer..

I am using different words than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but I hope  everyone understands what I mean when I type what I'm thinking.  I am  trying only to help spread the word and those who may understand the way  I have understood it with the vocabulary I have been bestowed with by  WaheGuru. The English language has so many words for what is generally  the same meaning. I hope no one takes offense who thinks that I am  trying to change the essence. I am merely putting it in my own words. 

Just like the Gurus I feel as if I could talk about what waheguru is for hours on end.. It is so vast. 
I feel I am at peace I feel I become more poetic and speak calmly with elegance, with grace. 
Thank you WaheGuru.


Your insights please on my interpretations of the the word.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 28, 2012)

Janpreet said:


> veer ji please explain it in detail.


 

You may pl go thru all post of a previous thread as "Who is God in Sikhisim" there this is elaborated .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Janpreet (Aug 28, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> You may pl go thru all post of a previous thread as "Who is God in Sikhisim" there this is elaborated .
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Veer ji I tried searching but could not find any relevant threads, maybe I am not looking at right place.

Can you please provide some direct links?

Thank you!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 28, 2012)

Janpreet said:


> Veer ji I tried searching but could not find any relevant threads, maybe I am not looking at right place.
> 
> Can you please provide some direct links?
> 
> Thank you!


 
You can search GOOGLE for Prakash.s.Bagga.
You will find several posts by me on this subject.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Janpreet (Aug 28, 2012)

Rory said:


> Janpreet I feel that the old Chinese philosopher/sage, Lao Tzu, taught a lot of the same things as the Gurus. I feel that beliefs about God vary from Sikh-to-Sikh, and for this reason you will get a variety of answers; I feel like Lao Tzu's book_ Tao Te Ching _talks about the Tao in ways that Sikhs could relate to as regards the Guru.
> 
> _Tao Te Ching_, Chapter 25
> "*1* There was something undefined and complete, coming into existence before Heaven and Earth. How still it was and formless, standing alone, and undergoing no change, reaching everywhere and in no danger (of being exhausted)! It may be regarded as the Mother of all things.
> ...



Veer ji, Gurbani is all about connecting with this 'GOD'. If "god' just is and does what it does, without needing to think about it or needing to feel emotion, then what is our point of doing prayer?

Is 'god' an intelligent force or energy like us humans?


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## itsmaneet (Aug 28, 2012)

"What is God?"

Generator, Operator & Destroyer .....
More Details - "Jaap Sahib"


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## Janpreet (Aug 28, 2012)

itsmaneet said:


> "What is God?"
> 
> Generator, Operator & Destroyer .....
> More Details - "Jaap Sahib"



So in other words you are saying god is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva?

Thank you Maneet ji but my question is what Guru ji describing in the mool -mantar(mangla-charan)

I feel it is very important to understand mool-mantar before you start understanding rest of Guru Granth Sahib ji.


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## Rory (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't feel that I know enough to answer your question as regards Gurbani, but this question:


Janpreet said:


> Is 'god' an intelligent force or energy like us humans?


Got me thinking. I'd say I would call God an energy, and intelligent; what I think is that simran, at least, is about giving time to listen out for God. Kinda like taking your earphones out and getting a sense of what is really going on around you; I don't think prayer or meditation is something done to_ please _God but rather to let our waters settle so we can look out and see clearly without the ripples. 

When we make time to get to know God, we are stepping into a position where we can see him - that is what I think. Sorry if my answers are vague or unhelpful, I find it hard to put into words what I'm thinking.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 28, 2012)

I do not feel there is any benefit in prayer, 

a liitle less conversation, a bit more action if you please...


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Aug 28, 2012)

Janpreet said:


> veer ji please explain it in detail.



A man  went to a Sage sitting under a tree and asked him to bless him with a big house,the Sage replied that if he had that much power why would he be sitting under a tree.


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## itsmaneet (Aug 29, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I do not feel there is any benefit in prayer,
> 
> a liitle less conversation, a bit more action if you please...


Brother,

In other words you mean to say tht "Ardas" that's been done everyday in Gurudwaras/Homes thru out the world has no benefit .... is this you wana say?


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## Harry Haller (Aug 29, 2012)

itsmaneet said:


> Brother,
> 
> In other words you mean to say tht "Ardas" that's been done everyday in Gurudwaras/Homes thru out the world has no benefit .... is this you wana say?



excellent, I can see you are getting the hang of this!

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, all those people praying to pass their driving test, buy a new house, pass exams, get married, make more money, bless this new business, etc etc , yes brother, our Ardas, which should be a request to Creator for maybe grace, or strength, is abused completely with worldy wants and desires


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## Luckysingh (Aug 29, 2012)

Absolutely!!!!

Asking for a list of wants and desires is what most think an ardas is!!!!

All one should ask for is strength and grace and maybe guidance to making the right choices!- Nothing more..

It is quite sad as when I hear the list sometimes it makes me feel bad and guilty for the sake of the other person asking. Maybe I feel sorry for their greedy approach or just sorry that they are giving out the wrong message.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 29, 2012)

The title of this thread is *''What Is God?''*

In simple terms, I would say God stands for the same thing that all _*people live for.*_
God also stands for the same thing that _*people would die for.*_

That thing that God stands for is no other than, *''LOVE''*

God is Love and Love is God.


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## Janpreet (Aug 29, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> The title of this thread is *''What Is God?''*
> 
> In simple terms, I would say God stands for the same thing that all _*people live for.*_
> God also stands for the same thing that _*people would die for.*_
> ...



So you are saying Guru Nanak Sahib ji is describing 'Love' in those nine words of Mool Mantar?
But 'love' is an emotion, how does love fit into characteristics of Karta Purakh, Ajuni or Saibhan?


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## Luckysingh (Aug 29, 2012)

Janpreet said:


> So you are saying Guru Nanak Sahib ji is describing 'Love' in those nine words of Mool Mantar?


 
That's taking it out of context. 
I am not saying that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a book of love!!
The ''love'' i am referring to is more than just a feeling.

Every act of God for us mankind is all about love. 
If you feel the presence of God throughout creation, then you will feel the presence of love.- Do you see what I'm saying??


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## Janpreet (Aug 29, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> That's taking it out of context.
> I am not saying that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a book of love!!
> The ''love'' i am referring to is more than just a feeling.
> 
> ...



Yes sir, I do see what you are saying and where you are coming from. But that was not my question in OP.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 29, 2012)

Janpreet said:


> So you are saying Guru Nanak Sahib ji is describing 'Love' in those nine words of Mool Mantar?
> But 'love' is an emotion, how does love fit into characteristics of Karta Purakh, Ajuni or Saibhan?


 
A quick suggestion here-

Karta purakh -is that he is the doer and creator of all.
When he created or creates, there is nothing but love. All is done with love.

Ajuni is unborn and beyond birth and death..etc..
Love is also without boundaries and exists 'beyond'

Saibhang is to describe the self existence, that God is One and himself, no one can break him or extinguish as he is One himself and exists in his self.
Love is also one entity that exists by itself. Nothing can be as pure as the truth and as pure as love in the truth.

Note- the LOVE we are talking about is the LOVE within and from the Truth and not always the love sometimes described in this world which can be part of the maya illusion.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 29, 2012)

my own interpretation of Mool Mantra would be as follows, I am not sure if this answers your question, but it is what Mool Mantra means to me

One creator present as one essence everywhere, whose name is the truth, architect of the universe, who has no fear, and no animosity, eternally consistent, eternally present, who is able to give direction, embrace these concepts and apply them, this essence entered into you at birth, remains with you your entire life, and is inside you as long as you exist, on death, this essence lives on, being shared with everything you have interacted with, either physically, emotionally and mentally.

Treat all life as you would treat yourself, be truthful and honest in all interaction, in this spirit of equality and honesty, plant your seeds, both in action, thought, and voice, to rid yourself of fear and animosity, but always be true to the part of Creator you have connected with already, have faith and trust that part of you, listen to it, it will never change, it cannot be swayed, it is the truth, apply these concepts to your life, plan your day with these concepts in mind, review your day by these concepts, remember this essence entered into you at birth, remains with you your entire life, and is inside you as long as you exist, on death, this essence lives on, being shared with everything you have interacted with, either physically, emotionally and mentally.

Although Luckyji has mentioned Love, I think there is a word that supersedes this, and that word is Truth, the very name of God, therefore God is the eternal Truth, not the convenient truth that one day hangs people, and the next day raises monuments to them, but the eternal truth, years ago, slavery was accepted, today it is frowned upon, then it was true, now it is false, all depending on culture, public opinion, etc etc, but the eternal truth rises above this, even now, some truths we accept, in future times, we will prove to be false, the truth does not change, it is always true, you just need the right lenses to see what is true and what is false. 

The eternal truth, coupled with love is a hearty combination, it can conquer anything!


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## Luckysingh (Aug 29, 2012)

Well said Harryji

I think I've come to the same conclusion herewinkingmunda
As you have mentioned above- ''The eternal truth, coupled with love is a hearty combination, it can conquer anything!''

I would say that it is the Love from or within the 'Truth' that describes God.
Love and truth go together hand in hand.

Pure love and the pure truth = God
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## Archived_member14 (Aug 29, 2012)

Harry ji,




> Treat all life as you would treat yourself,



Would this imply for example, that you do not kill or hurt because you don't like to be killed and hurt? That you forgive anyone for any transgression because like you, everyone makes mistakes and would like to be given a second, third, fourth and fifth chance? And given that you say:

Quote:
“this essence entered into you at birth, remains with you your entire life, and is inside you as long as you exist, on death,”

Does this mean for example, that if you verbally, physically or even mentally hurt any living being, that in essence you are hurting and abusing God? That any identification and therefore division created, such as that “they are Muslims and we are Sikhs”, this is akin to not showing respect to God?


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 29, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Try to understand A Perfect Vibrating Wave of A Divine Element.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji everything is perfect whether we give it a name or a characterization with our limitations of it to be a wave, etc.

Lions Kill Giraffe - real attack      - YouTube

Define the wave in the above and you have discovered the undiscovered!

Let us think:


Did the lions/lionesses sense a wave
Did the Giraffe give out a wave
Was their mutual understanding per wave theory that Giraffe to die so that Lions could eat
etc.
It all is.  Isn't it!  Innate and unexplained and the more we dig the less becomes known!

By the way we may think the video and cruelty as disgusting, the trees did not shed a tear or did they  :dunno:.  Trees perhaps happy that no more Giraffe to devour/kill them.

Is killing and dying human concept as most creation lets it to be!  The following video,

Hurricane Wilma Video - Miami Beach, Florida      - YouTube
  The bottomline in all this is that more one wants to encapsulate, tries to define God/creator, etc., the further they remove themselves from Sikhism and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  Most fundamental of all teaching in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teaching that the Creator cannot be defined and one should not try to define.  The more you say the less has been said and forever more would need to be said.  

It is totally another matter and more practical living objective espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be with all of creation as one to the best you can be.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 30, 2012)

Confused said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes, I guess it does


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 30, 2012)

It is very surprising to know that
"Most fundamental of all teaching in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teaching that the Creator cannot be defined and one should not try to define

This means that CREATOR is not defined in SGGS . If someone feels so then such one is totally  doubting the real knowledge about CREATOR in SGGS .

One ie required to accept the definition of CREATOR as being reflected in a Quote from 
Baanee Sukhmani as

"Prabhu Abnaasee Ekankaaru"..............How any Gursikh can overlook this definition 
of Creator from SGGS  .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 30, 2012)

Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post





prakash.s.bagga said:


> ....
> One ie required to accept the definition of CREATOR as being reflected in a Quote from
> Baanee Sukhmani as
> 
> ...


_There are many references to the creator.__  Such are some qualities identified by Guru ji's and others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.__ The one you refer to is not the only one._

_Recognizing all that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji postulates the infinite one, fools will take one "Pangati", a small excerpt/cutting and mold it to their thinking to define the infinite in detail.  Just as you have translated the stuff earlier in this thread to some type of wave of your imagination that only you know what it is.

Such is not what is espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  The issue with such lines of thoughts as yours is that it demands of you to be the master to describe more and this is how Babey/Shabey are created who somehow start claiming to know the infinite creator and ways to reach or influence such.  Let me know where the wave is described in your chosen three words and quoted above as __"Prabhu Abnaasee Ekankaaru".__  All I can notice is the traps and misguidance and mis-direction whether intentional or out of ignorance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji._

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 30, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Try to understand A Perfect Vibrating Wave of A Divine Element.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
I understand this interpretation and it is interesting.- the perfec vibration within everything. 

However, I feel that if describing a wave as in scientific terms, then the God wave would not have any peaks or troughs. It would be a vibration that is 'constant' or one continuous frequency line without the waves.

                            -----------------------------------------

It is an interesting thread with lots of varied inputs.
I don't see why there should be any problem with everyone of us having a personal image or description of God, that makes it easier to relate to.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 31, 2012)

Dear Ambasaria ji,
Refering to your message as
_There are many references to the creator. Such are some qualities identified by Guru ji's and others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The one you refer to is not the only one_

_I do agree that the one I refer is not the only one reference for the CREATOR  but what I refer is certainly the ULTIMATE ONE which is accepted by GuRu Nanak Dev ji ._
_And all other references are for this ULTIMATE ONE only._
_You may pl give a thought to a Quote as_
_"Nanak ka Prabh Poor Raheo Hae ,Jat Kat Tat Gosaain"_

_With regards_

_Prakash.S.Bagga_


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## Janpreet (Aug 31, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Most fundamental of all teaching in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teaching that the Creator cannot be defined and one should not try to define.  The more you say the less has been said and forever more would need to be said.
> 
> It is totally another matter and more practical living objective espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be with all of creation as one to the best you can be.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Thank you


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 31, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Dear Ambasaria ji,
> Refering to your message as
> _There are many references to the creator. Such are some qualities identified by Guru ji's and others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The one you refer to is not the only one_
> 
> ...


Prakash.s.bagga ji stop quoting single pangtis/lines.  Worst of all, please also stop assigning Guru ji's names to your interpretations based on such single lines.  SGGS is one and only fortunate ones get to understand and see it as one versus mis-quoting and mis-directing with single lines and words.  I don't profess to be the fortunate one who understands all of SGGS but we all attempt to learn more over time.

I bring to your attention again, the worst way of sharing meanings of SGGS (single lines, single words, etc.) and very disrespectful and additionally against TOS of SPN.  I believe you know this very well from much such previous dialog in many threads.

Quote complete shabads with your understanding and we can dialog.  I am sure others will participate if they so choose too.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## palaingtha (Nov 10, 2012)

Janpreet said:


> Waheguru Ji,
> 
> Please help me understand what Guru ji is describing in mool mantar(mangla-charan)
> 
> ...




You are sounding like a person who has reached his destination and asking others where he is. You have correctly understood  the Mool Mantra. It is sufficient to know about God in a gist. Nothing more can be said about God by us the mortals. We are born at his command and die at the time fixed for us to shed this body after doing our deeds, good or bad, traversing through several lives to reach God and merge with Him.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 10, 2012)

only several?

does this mean I am not at present merged?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 10, 2012)

In the begining there was "WORD".The word was with GOD   of THE WORD is GOD.
This is so stated in the western philosophy of Christinity.

The whole existence in the begining be known thru a SINGLE WORD "SABADu" as 
GuROO.

so in context of Gurbanee GuROO and GOD are same.GuROO and GOD both are refernces for a SINGLE WORD (SABADu)

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member15 (Nov 10, 2012)

*What is God? *

Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature _love _as the Bible teaches, "_Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them_" _(1 John 4:18). _He does not '_have' _love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply _is _love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "_moves the sun and the other stars_*".* 

I like this description though, from the Catholic mystic Angelus Silesius:




> "...God is an endless force that what it wills attaineth,
> That formless, without goal, still as it is remaineth.
> 
> Indeed, God only is—can neither live nor love
> ...


 

Pretty much captures the little my human brain can conceive of the Infinite God who is love, that love which spans the entire cosmos and is the source of all things.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 10, 2012)

Vouthon said:


> *What is God? *
> 
> Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature _love _as the Bible teaches, "_Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them_" _(1 John 4:18). _He does '_have' _love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply _is _love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "_moves the sun and the other stars_*".*
> 
> ...


 
VOUTHON Ji,
The above all stated is true for a "WORD" as GOD and the same is GuROO
in SGGS.
I hope you can give a serious thinking to this fact.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 10, 2012)

Vouthon ji don't ever assume that two Sikhs think alike.  Say me and Prakash.S. Bagga ji.





Vouthon said:


> *What is God? *
> 
> Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature _love _as the Bible teaches, "_Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them_" _(1 John 4:18). _He does not '_have' _love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply _is _love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "_moves the sun and the other stars_*".*


_Your understanding above is pretty close to my understanding or thinking as well.  The difficulty is we are all human and each is at their own level of perceptions, thinking, experiences.  It is virtually impossible for us to change in spite of our general answers.

I am sure in your religion you have people who don't think like you and there are plenty who don't think like me either.  Why should they?  We are all humans and such is the gift from the creator.

In terms of God/creator we have a fair share of Sikhs who in their utmost honesty try to "BOX" God/creator while consistently ignoring what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reminds us again and again about the infinite and we may never know but should never let that stop us from recognizing more of creator in all throughout our lives.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not bind God/creator within its covers.  It is a great teacher that helps us continuously realize the infinite creation and creator in the space between our two ears.

I much disagree with Prakash.S.Bagga ji's assertions about words fully describing or even at times meaning to be as though the creator or God.  Such are only our limits of perception that we place on the infinite.  However if this is what one believes and it helps them be in greater consonance with creation, it is all good.  

_No disrespect to anyone implied or expressed.  Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member15 (Nov 10, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Vouthon ji don't ever assume that two Sikhs think alike. Say me and Prakash.S. Bagga ji._Your understanding above is pretty close to my understanding or thinking as well. The difficulty is we are all human and each is at their own level of perceptions, thinking, experiences. It is virtually impossible for us to change in spite of our general answers._
> 
> _I am sure in your religion you have people who don't think like you and there are plenty who don't think like me either. Why should they? We are all humans and such is the gift from the creator._
> 
> ...


 

Thank you for your message brother Ambarsaria ji peacesignkaur

I completely agree, people have various levels of understanding even within the one faith and the most important thing is that whatever belief they have inspires them to lead good lives and as you see "be in greater consonance with creation". Its better having a simplistic faith in God with much love than great comprehension of complex subjects without the love to show it. One is more learned the more one has become aware that one is ignorant. 

Then we come to realise that we cannot comprehend God in our logical faculties, but we can only become aware of God’s all pervasive presence through a mystical insight into the deep “harmony of all things”: the entire creation is the “mirror of God”, God is therefore “the radical unity of the opposites”(to use Cardinal's Cusa's words). 

I was only offering my personal understanding of it from my perspective. I do not, by any means, believe that Sikhs all think alike (or indeed Catholics). Diversity is part of creation: 




> "...Diversity in creation and cultures is the language of God, the radical unity of the opposites. In God absolute unity is absolute multiplicity. It is you, O God, who is being sought in various religions in various ways, and named with various names. For you remain as you are, to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it, then sword, jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious faiths. Love makes the entry, where reason remains outside the door..."
> 
> *- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464), Catholic mystic*


 

The truth is, because God is infinite, he is above "opinions". I agree completely that we should not disparage others from having a different understanding from oneself: 




> "...The more we let each voice sound forth with its own tone, The more diverse will be the chant in unison.
> 
> The Nightingale mocks not the Cuckoo's note, 'tis true,
> And yet you scorn my song if I sing not as you.
> ...


 


The way I see it is God is truth, every one who is seeking after truth is seeking God. No religion and no human being has or ever can fully comprehended the divine and so no religion or person can be called superior to another, even though our degrees of understanding differ, we ultimately are all left unknowing before God. All religions and all people have different approaches to that Absolute Truth and and all contain elements of divine revelation. However they comprehend that truth to varying degrees but are all united in that none of them has fully comprehended that truth, such that all must be understood in relation to each other. No religion or person has a monopoly on truth. 


May we all mindfully appreciate the rich diversity of every person whom we meet. Like flowers in a garden we each bring beauty, variety, and sustenance to our world, and as Pope John once said: 



> "...All men, then, should turn their attention away from those things that divide and separate us, and should consider how they may *be joined in mutual and just regard for one another's opinions *and possessions...*For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark*..."
> 
> _- Pope John XXIII, AD PETRI CATHEDRAM (On Truth, Unity and Peace), 1959_


 

So I fully agree brother Ambarsaria ji, we should recognise that people have different understandings, respect and embrace it.


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## Luckysingh (Nov 10, 2012)

However it helps someone, it doesn't matter.
I have come to understand and accept that not everyone can grasp the infinite aspect to understand God. Some need some sort of earthly description to help them such as deities, texts or words.
It's not the sikh way but if it helps then it helps them and I can't argue.

Prakashji, the reference you made is a valid biblical quote by John from what I remember.
Now this was also John the baptist if I'm not wrong and we further learnt that the 'word' was also in the water used to baptise. Remember that John baptised Jesus himself as the 'word' of God was in the baptism.
I would relate this same 'word' to the gurbani 'shabad' or Guru as you mentioned in a similar way and this is one aspect that can highlight the similarity in religions.


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## palaingtha (Nov 11, 2012)

harry haller said:


> only several?
> 
> does this mean I am not at present merged?



A zebra will never shed its stripes!!!


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## palaingtha (Nov 11, 2012)

Vouthon said:


> *What is God? *
> 
> Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature _love _as the Bible teaches, "_Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them_" _(1 John 4:18). _He does not '_have' _love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply _is _love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "_moves the sun and the other stars_*".*
> 
> ...



Simply put GOD is the creator of this entire universe and no similes can be given as HE is the only and the only ONE creator, sustainer and what not. No words can describe HIS entity.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 11, 2012)

Simply put GOD is the creator of this entire universe and no similes can be given as HE is the only and the only ONE creator, sustainer and what not. No words can describe HIS entity

PALAINTHA Ji,
I think one should relook into what is being described in the very first line
of SGGS.(EKKANKAAR to GuR PRASAADi)
Is nt this a perfect description of the entity of the CREATOR in words from our GuRu.?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 11, 2012)

He can't be explained in binary code because he's in Cosmic code.(All Ones)


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 11, 2012)

Infinity is bigger than you think.

With that said the concept in Sikhism is not of infinity but that of "unreachable limits". _Tera ant na paya jaye_, Your end can not be obtained. There is a subtle difference between the two and members in discussion may want to take a moment and think about that.
And this is not some abstract mathematical infinity. The unreachable limits can be seen with the inner eye if one knows how to look, it's just that you can only quietly see them without ever grasping them yourself or explaining them to another. Everything you know or understand dissolves as it approaches the limits. It no longer serves you. You really cannot take this and shove it in someone's face as evidence that they are wrong. There is no right or wrong here. Any thing, any faculty any way of getting to that limit will fail as it approaches it, hence why _ant_ cannot be _paya jaye_. 

So in a discussion about God, talking about the limits serves only as a reminder to humility, never as something that is the matter of discussion itself. It is purely as a taste for someone who sees it. The discussion must proceed onwards to what we do know about God that we can actually share with others.

Sometimes there is no disccusion simply a sentence, a pangti that captures it all, like this one by SPji.


> He can't be explained in binary code because he's in Cosmic code.(All Ones)


Granted that is his normal style but it reminds me of that story of a mechanic (and I paraphrase) who was called in my someone with a broken machine. The mechanic walks in, takes a good look at it, taps it here and there and then switches it on. And gr gr gr gr gr gr gr it starts. The owner of the machine, happy at the result, asks him for his fee. The mechanic says $2000. The machine-owner is just shocked at this. He says "all you did was tap it a few times! I am not paying $2000 for a few taps." The mechanic says "Well, all my knowledge and training went into knowing exactly where to tap, and that's what you are paying for." ...

I think the experience of God operates like that, a few taps here and there kick start a human being to experience God but knowing where to tap, that crucial bit of knowledge, only comes from a guru and from practice. The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that knowledge about yourself... :sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Luckysingh (Nov 11, 2012)

Infinity is just a word we know that still cannot reach the limit.
We don't even have the ability to even 'imagine' the expanse of just what he simply knows about us.
When I was very young, say about 6-7 yrs old, I would just be amazed by thinking about how big and clever his brain must be !! - I would think that if he knows all our names of the billions and billions in the world and he also knows exactly what we are all doing and thinking at this very second then he must obviously have a very huge and clever brain !!
Of course this is simple kids thoughts, but it makes you realise that he knows us all as individuals and then he knows exactly what the trillions of cells in our bodies are doing!
So from the huge galaxies and milky ways out there to our microscopic cellular level, he commands ALL. 
What is even so amazing is that scientists and us can all go outwards and on huge multi-global scales trying to get answers for the universe, BUT they can also go inwards to the same extent to find answers and explanations for our very microscopic and multi-cellular functions. 
However, the dangers are that we can get lost in both dimensions of exploration and drift away from the real truth. Which is why I believe that we have equal amounts of global and natural problems as well as medical and body function problems.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 11, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> He can't be explained in binary code because he's in Cosmic code.(All Ones)


 
But in Hurbanee GuRu is telling that Code .
I think this should be understood by every sikh.

In fact every invisible thing can be understood thru code only like G,M and I word codes for Gravitational,Magnetic and Current in science.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 11, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Infinity is just a word we know that still cannot reach the limit.
> We don't even have the ability to even 'imagine' the expanse of just what he simply knows about us.
> When I was very young, say about 6-7 yrs old, I would just be amazed by thinking about how big and clever his brain must be !! - I would think that if he knows all our names of the billions and billions in the world and he also knows exactly what we are all doing and thinking at this very second then he must obviously have a very huge and clever brain !!
> Of course this is simple kids thoughts, but it makes you realise that he knows us all as individuals and then he knows exactly what the trillions of cells in our bodies are doing!
> ...


 
LUCKY SINGH Ji,
If one understands the science of COSMIC phenomena then one should understand the word GuROO as GuRu.GuRu or HARi.HARi being the
COSMIC CODE from GuRu for Sikhs .
In one way the completete knowledge of Gurbanee is also a Science of the word GuROO ...One should ponder over this important aspect too if one is actually familiar what the science is all about.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 12, 2012)

> I think the experience of God operates like that, a few taps here and  there kick start a human being to experience God but knowing where to  tap, that crucial bit of knowledge, only comes from a guru and from  practice. The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that  knowledge about yourself...



Veerji

I agree completely however I would have put slightly different

I think the experience of God operates like that, a few taps here and  there kick start a human being to experience God but knowing where to  tap, that crucial bit of knowledge, only comes from THE guru and from  practice. The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that  knowledge about yourself...


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## Harry Haller (Nov 12, 2012)

> A zebra will never shed its stripes!!!


_Last edited by palaingtha; Yesterday at 14:52 PM.                                                                   Reason: to correct the saying.                                      

_If you are going to correct something, it always helps to correct it with something correct. 

I do not find the above incorrect statement (leopard/spots) within Sikhism at all, a Sikh is a student a learner, one who is constantly changing, evolving, reaching for the truth, can you provide any basis for the above statement that it is Sikhi? or is it just another of your personal bigoted opinions?

Creator is everywhere and in everything, there is no need to merge at a later stage, the merging has already taken place, all we have to do is listen.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 12, 2012)

The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that knowledge about yourself... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




<!-- google_ad_section_end --> 
Bhagat Singh Ji,

Very appropriate statement from a person of your cllibre,
So meeting GuRu is must .
What is GuRu an How is met is all from within Gurbanee or thru the grace of GuRu only
Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## palaingtha (Nov 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> _Last edited by palaingtha; Yesterday at 14:52 PM.                                                                   Reason: to correct the saying.
> 
> _If you are going to correct something, it always helps to correct it with something correct.
> 
> ...



The comment was directed at you. You will never change in writing with the intent to taunt me rather than express you honest views on a topic under discussion.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 22, 2012)

> Creator is everywhere and in everything, there is no need to merge at a later stage, the merging has already taken place, all we have to do is listen.



Veer Ji If you are merged who is there to listen to ? As you are part of it you are just realising what you felt intuitively.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 22, 2012)

Sp ji, 
What is there to feel if you have merged with God? You are the feeler, You are the feeling.

If we have gotten to a stage where we know this intuitively then the question is what to do?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 22, 2012)

One special thing is once your thinking has merged, you don't regress. And then rest of your life is in 'right' direction. You never act on hate, anger, greed etc.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 22, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji If you are merged who is there to listen to ? As you are part of it just feel it.


 
The merged one is going to tell others about what is being experienced .
I think the merged one cant be silent.His words and actions become source of inspiration for others to seek  for similar merger and get the experience.
GuRu-Sikhu is a continueing process.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 23, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga ji some comments.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> The merged one is going to tell others about what is being experienced .
> I think the merged one cant be silent.His words and actions become source of inspiration for others to seek  for similar merger and get the experience.
> GuRu-Sikhu is a continuing process.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji with due respect who,


Declares someone is merged
It cannot be self judgement by the person themselves to declare themselves

Surely the un-merged don't know or can judge the qualities of a merged one
You got to be one to know one

Say the merged declare the other as merged having the quality to know so
Why would the merged publicize the other merged?

 I come to the conclusion that all this merging and un-merging business is a mirage in the name of higher living to avoid truthful and practical living and be called for our actions.  

It is like a shield as few will disturb a chanting, swaying, eyes closed person irrespective of the state of their heart being of virtue or malice.  I am sure you heard the childhood story of Bagla Bhagat/"devious crane" who stands in shallow water with one leg up and eyes apparently closed to fool the fish so that he can grab and eat them.  Far from generalizing I am simply flagging.  peacesign

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 23, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji some comments.Prakash.S.Bagga ji with due respect who,
> 
> 
> Declares someone is merged
> ...


 Thanks for your pragmatic views but,
Does Sun requires any declaration that Sun is Sinining.?
Merger ONE is like Shining Sun.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> The merged one is going to tell others about what is being experienced .
> I think the merged one cant be silent.His words and actions become source of inspiration for others to seek  for similar merger and get the experience.
> GuRu-Sikhu is a continueing process.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga



<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਆਖੈ  ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ  ॥ 
जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥ 
Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ. 
If anyone presumes to describe God, 
   </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#BABAC7"><td>  ਤਾ  ਲਿਖੀਐ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਗਾਵਾਰਾ  ਗਾਵਾਰੁ  ॥੨੬॥ 
ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥ 
Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26|| 
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26|| 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>
Page 6 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Fleetwood Mac - Go Your Own Way (HQ) - YouTube

Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall (HQ) - YouTube

Prakashji

this is how babas and sants get their foot in, better to discount anyone who claims they know and concentrate on your own relationship with Creator within


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 23, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
Thanks for your warning views but

I differ with the interpretation given for the Quote. My understanding 
goes like this

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥ 
जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥ 
Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ

If any one says a Single Manipulated Word,

ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥ 
ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥ 
Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26|| 

Then Such shall be written as the greatest fool of Fools.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLAR Ji,
> Thanks for your warning views but
> 
> I differ with the interpretation given for the Quote. My understanding
> ...



<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#BABAC7"><td>  ਜੇ  ਹਉ  ਜਾਣਾ  ਆਖਾ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਕਹਣਾ  ਕਥਨੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ॥ 
जे हउ जाणा आखा नाही कहणा कथनु न जाई ॥ 
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī. 
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words. 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 23, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
Refering to your quoteas
ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ 
जे हउ जाणा आखा नाही कहणा कथनु न जाई ॥ 
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī. 
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words. 

My understanding is that here the reference GOD for knowing is a mere assumption.
I consider that this knowing is related to the HUKAMu .It is about the HUKAMu
that even if I know can not be described as Hukamu is beyond description.

It is very clear to me that GOD can not be descibed as GOD is reference of A WORD only.

From Gurbanee one can know about GuR as the WAVE OF GOD which is perfectly described 
Gurbanee is all about WAVE/WAVES OF GOD as GuRu-GuR. Therefore it is to be clear what is required to be known from Gurbanee .It is GuRu/GuR.

Try to understand GOD and THE WAVE /WAVES OF GOD.

In Gurbanee the reference GOD is same as GuROO
The WAVE/WAVES OF GOD as GuRu/GuR

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLAR Ji,
> Refering to your quoteas
> ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
> जे हउ जाणा आखा नाही कहणा कथनु न जाई ॥
> ...



Beloved Prakashji

I am of the opinion that those that have felt the wave/waves of God would be better off keeping it to themselves. Let it shine from them from their actions, their words, their thoughts, let others be inspired from them, that is good. As soon as ego shines through, as soon as pride shines through, the best intentions go to pot, and what might have started as a genuine need to share with others becomes a desperate need for love and attention, and before you know it, your in the back seat of a black Audi 4x4, with your picture plastered all over posters, blessing people, I guess it is the final 'merger' when you become God, 

However, if you know, if you feel it, then you would also know the best way to change peoples hearts, and it is not proclaiming yourself wise, it is discretely getting on with life and watching the effect it has on others, and silently watching your works grow.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 23, 2012)

Dear Harry Hallar ji,
There is no question of claiming for knowing anything different which 
has already been known thru the messages of GuRu from Gurbanee.

It would be wrong to construe the views of any person to have been
brabded as his own.The views what we all share is the understanding of
the messages of GuRu only.

I think one should share the views in the right spirit of the views.
I never claim that this is what I know or say. I may be wrong even 
in my understanding.
Can any one deny that Gurbanee is not refering to the wave/waves
of the CREATOR ?

One should be fair while sharing the messages of Gurbanee then only 
there can be uniformity in understanding our GuRu as WAH GuROO.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2012)

Prakashji

I do not put you in this camp, apologies if my post intimated that. 

I think we all have our views, and that is just what they, our views, sharing them is a good idea, it promotes thinking and understanding. 

It is when one feels that ones own view is correct above all others. 

You have a special place in my heart, although your views are like marmite, I either loathe them, or love them, depending on the view


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji
> 
> I do not put you in this camp, apologies if my post intimated that.
> 
> ...


 

Thanks  Harry Hallar Ji,

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 23, 2012)

> I guess it is the final 'merger' when you become God,



Veer Ji It's emerging not merging ,If I knew more I would say more,but I guess if you are God you don't need an Audi.

In the spirit of taking the edge off what has no edge!


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji It's emerging not merging ,If I knew more I would say more,but I guess if you are God you don't need an Audi.
> 
> In the spirit of taking the edge off what has no edge!



au contraire dearest SPji when you become God, the first thing you need is an Audi, with a little silly red light!


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## palaingtha (Nov 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> _Last edited by palaingtha; Yesterday at 14:52 PM.                                                                   Reason: to correct the saying.
> 
> _If you are going to correct something, it always helps to correct it with something correct.
> 
> ...



I do not understand why a few lines I had posted yesterday do not appear in its wholeness.
The part where I asked you to give your comments on Giani Jarnail Singh's experience regarding 1000 currency note vanished from his joora and was found when the magician cut a durian which Giani ji bought at the magicians asking.
If you admit you have double standards you will avoid a reply to the affect that you agree or disagree with Giani ji.
You again and again taunt upon my true story even in unrelated threads. Are you scared to comment adversely on Gianiji's posts?
I agree with Gianiji that his experience is true.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2012)

palaingtha said:


> I do not understand why a few lines I had posted yesterday do not appear in its wholeness.
> The part where I asked you to give your comments on Giani Jarnail Singh's experience regarding 1000 currency note vanished from his joora and was found when the magician cut a durian which Giani ji bought at the magicians asking.
> If you admit you have double standards you will avoid a reply to the affect that you agree or disagree with Giani ji.
> You again and again taunt upon my true story even in unrelated threads. Are you scared to comment adversely on Gianiji's posts?
> I agree with Gianiji that his experience is true.



I felt it was the wrong place to debate with you on the subject in the 'introducing myself' thread. This is for new forum members to be welcomed, not to witness petty arguments between existing members. 

After giving the matter some thought, I am at a loss to explain two things, firstly how the note ended up in Gianijis joora, but more importantly, why on earth someone with such powers would waste their time in a market place doing such things in the first place. There are people dying, wars being made, starvation, famine, why then would someone of such 'magic' be wasting time acting as a freak show?

I have no enimity with your goodself, however, if you wish to put yourself on a pedestal, and rant and rave as to who should be excommunicated and who should not, and then give misleading information to others, in some cases without even checking first, then someone has a duty to point out that your view is your view only, not the Sikh view. This equally applies to me, my view is my view. 

I do not wish to cause you any stress or anger, especially at your age, in fact, I have had an earful from my wife on the subject, and I apologise for taunting you about the imps. I am afraid I am a child at heart, so, ok, no more imp jokes. 

However, if it takes my opinion to balance yours, I will continue to do so

Regards and best wishes


harry


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## palaingtha (Nov 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I felt it was the wrong place to debate with you on the subject in the 'introducing myself' thread. This is for new forum members to be welcomed, not to witness petty arguments between existing members.
> 
> After giving the matter some thought, I am at a loss to explain two things, firstly how the note ended up in Gianijis joora, but more importantly, why on earth someone with such powers would waste their time in a market place doing such things in the first place. There are people dying, wars being made, starvation, famine, why then would someone of such 'magic' be wasting time acting as a freak show?
> 
> ...



Since you have expressed regret in taunting me in unconnected posts or otherwise it is ok for me. I was seeking explanation if you taunt me why no comments on others for same type of posts.
Let the matter end here.
I am a very sober man. I neither belittle others nor bear lying down unproved verbal attacks.
With sincere regards.
KSL.


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## Luckysingh (Nov 23, 2012)

Prakashji, Maybe this wave theory makes more sense.
I mean all of matter, everything around us consists of waves of vibration.
We all make our own waves and when we interact with other matter, then the waves come together.
Even my communication with you and everyone else is setting off some waves of vibration that induce further wave responses.

Overall, all the waves of vibration help to make up the God Wave.
Thus, if we disrupt and interrupt any of the smaller waves, they will still affect the God Wave.
This is why any inbalances and forced interruptions into any part of creation result in a disruption to the whole universe!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 24, 2012)

LUCKY SINGH Ji,

I would like to add a little to the part of your message as
Thus, if we disrupt and interrupt any of the smaller waves, they will still affect the God Wave.

GOD WAVE/WAVES are perfect and are not affected by disruption or intruption of smallar waves.
Rather smallar waves get alligned with GOD Waves.
GOD wave/Waves are OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT

And it is the GOD WAVE/WAVES as CREATOR what is being refered 
in Gurbanee as
"JAATi MAAHi JOTi JOTi MAAHi JATAA        .... SALOK Asaa Di Var

Sothe CREATOR is to be known as JOTi. The literal meaning of JOTi is Light but
intrinsic meaning of JOTi is WAVEs that is why the word JOTi is PLURAL NUMBER

Further important to understand is that there is SOMETHING which is common in all
creations . What is that? It is JOTi  - Waves of GOD only.

Therefore one is required to Focus on the understanding of JOTi-  WAVES OF GOD
conforming to the message of Gurbanee as
SIKHI SIKHIYA GUR VICHAARi.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 24, 2012)

Luckysingh ji I respect your great contributions.  However we need to take stock sometimes if we are too adrift of what SGGS teaches us about the undefineable infinite creation/creator.  One comment in reference to below,





Luckysingh said:


> ...  This is _why any imbalances and forced interruptions_ into any part of creation result in a _disruption to the whole universe_!!


_What makes you or me an expert on the rules of creator/creation to such a degree of definitiveness?  Why couldn't the "imbalances' and "interruptions" we view as deviations instead not be the rules by design of the creator or creation._

_We keep constantly falling into the trap that we are going to define creator and all creation. SGGS keeps warning us to not waste time on it.  Why such a simple instruction or advice of our Guru ji's so hard to understand?

When we make global or God/creator like conjectures about waves and all that I believe we need to humbly step back and take stock of our self esteem and egos in relation to the vastness of creator and creation.

It is OK to be led astray accidentally but let us not lead ourselves astray by design.  This applies to me as much as anyone so it is not a personal attack but just a comment.

_Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 24, 2012)

ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥ ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਜਉ ਪੈ ਹਮ ਨ ਪਾਪ ਕਰੰਤਾ ਅਹੇ ਅਨੰਤਾ ॥ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੁੰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਜੁ ਨਾਇਕ ਆਛਹੁ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਜਨੁ ਜਾਨੀਜੈ ਜਨ ਤੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥੨॥ਸਰੀਰੁ ਆਰਾਧੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਦੇਹੂ ॥ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥੩॥
 
Lucky Singh ji and Prakash ji,
"You are me, I am You, what is the difference? The difference is like the difference between gold and bangles, like water and it's waves!" Bhagat Ravidas ji says, "those beings are rare who can understand this." Glad to know, I am acquainted with such beings! :grinningsingh:


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## Luckysingh (Nov 24, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Luckysingh ji I respect your great contributions. However we need to take stock sometimes if we are too adrift of what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us about the undefineable infinite creation/creator. One comment in reference to below,_What makes you or me an expert on the rules of creator/creation to such a degree of definitiveness? Why couldn't the "imbalances' and "interruptions" we view as deviations instead not be the rules by design of the creator or creation._
> 
> _We keep constantly falling into the trap that we are going to define creator and all creation. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji keeps warning us to not waste time on it. Why such a simple instruction or advice of our Guru ji's so hard to understand?_
> 
> ...


 
I understand what you are saying. We must not fall into the trap of defining, because once you begin to do that you start putting limitations and borders on the description. 
God has NO defining limits or borders as such.

I wouldn't say we are defining creator, but we are trying to describe the work or the ''how?'' OR rules as you mentioned.

The statement 





> This is why any inbalances and forced interruptions into any part of creation result in a disruption to the whole universe!!<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message -->
> 
> <!-- edit note --><!-- <hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" /> //-->


This is something that I have believed from a young age, long before I paid attention to sikhi.
I have studied science nearly all my life and when you do that nearly everything comes down to some kind of explanation that makes scientific sense. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that science has the danger of taking you away from God, but I dont' use it as the only basis and you shouldn't. It is very useful to help understand providing you keep within the limitations.

I firmly believe that all the problems be they personal, global, economical and ecological are all results of our own actions.
In this sense this wave theory that Prakashji mentioned makes quite a lot of sense.
 I have NEVER come across this before and I haven't checked if such  a concept is has been penned by anyone previously.
 All the explanations that have been made are personal assumptions of 'HOW' this could be the way  all creation works.

Although, like you said, we must always stay closely tight to the roots of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and don't let assumptions carry us away from the truth.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 24, 2012)

> I have NEVER come across this before and I haven't checked if such  a concept is has been penned by anyone previously.
> All the explanations that have been made are personal assumptions of 'HOW' this could be the way  all creation works.


Lucky Singh ji,
In that case, type in the word ਤਰੰਗ in srigranth.org Gurmukhi search function, and see how it is described in Guru Granth Sahib. 

What are your views on these shabads?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 24, 2012)

LUKCKY SINGH Ji,

Thank you very much for your explicit views .
Since I am a person with engineering background when I tried to understand the 
messages of Gurbanee in context of some Basic Laws of WAVE THEORY OF MATTER
I was amazed to see the existence of close relationship betweeen the CORE MESSAGE of Gurbanee and Basic Laws of Modern Science.
I simply tried to share my observations. on this Forum This is already being 
said by our GuRu only. it is how one realises the intrisic meaning of the messages.

That is How I understand the Core Concept of Gurbanee as Science of Word GuROO 
only.

Prakash .S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Nov 24, 2012)

Prakash ji, I have noticed you mention the 'wave' previously a few times, but i didn't quite grasp the angle you were approaching.
For some reason earlier today I could see how simple and informative the appproach actually was!! Even though it just didn't click before!!!

I also totally agree with your comment below. 


> GOD WAVE/WAVES are perfect and are not affected by disruption or intruption of smallar waves.
> Rather smallar waves get alligned with GOD Waves.
> GOD wave/Waves are OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT


 
I would probably say that the disruption doesn't affect God waves, but it does effect the waves emitting from the rest of creation. A little like rebound emissions with opposing characteristics.

I shall look at the shabads that Bhagatji has mentioned when I get a chance.


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## Luckysingh (Nov 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Lucky Singh ji,
> In that case, type in the word ਤਰੰਗ in srigranth.org Gurmukhi search function, and see how it is described in Guru Granth Sahib.
> 
> What are your views on these shabads?


 
Amazing !!!
I didn't realise there were that many shabads that go in that same direction.
I'm sure that I have previously just associated and imagined only waves of the ocean when I have come across some of them.
I can now view them a little differently and with some better understanding.:interestedmunda:as some of them are referenced as waves of joy, pain, trouble and waves of desire..etc...


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 19, 2015)

This is a ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ
JALTARANG - YouTube
Jal-Tarang Recital : Ranjana Pradhan - YouTube

I imagine us as those bowls filled in with God, vibrating at the frequencies He has bestowed upon us and singing in the Universal orchestra!


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## Original (Mar 25, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> This is a ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ
> JALTARANG - YouTube
> Jal-Tarang Recital : Ranjana Pradhan - YouTube
> 
> I imagine us as those bowls filled in with God, vibrating at the frequencies He has bestowed upon us and singing in the Universal orchestra!




From a physicist perspective the body is a field of invisible vibrations - musical notes on a violin string [string theory]. The human soul a note on Waheguru violin.


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## N30S1NGH (Mar 25, 2015)

Here is indication by sant mani singh ji on God:



> When asked about God at Orange County, California, sympathetically he replied, “You can’t say its reality. You certainly can’t say it’s a fiction because something exists. That something needs to be experimented. Nothing can be said about God. You can study about God but nothing has been known because all you know is from the outside, what we would call external. Until you enter from within, the internal can’t be known. By studying about God, you will miss the whole concept and the consequence to that is that you are left with knowledge only. To know is to enter the kingdom, to become one with eternity. Knowledge is from the outside and has nothing what so ever to do with God. Because God is happening.”
> 
> “Nothing is hidden from God because God is the inside of everything. The inside knows all. You can hide something from others, but you can’t hide it from yourself. And it is there that God is hidden.”
> 
> ...


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## N30S1NGH (Mar 25, 2015)

For many years, many sikh intellectuals have interpreted mool mantar in a way where absolute reality of mool mantar is somewhere else- up there somewhere in sky via abrahamic notions not here and now-present. Absolute truth/God is here and now undivided in all of us among all experiencing itself, in fact everyone of us is God as God is one in all, all in one always experiencing itself- the absolute truth only but due to ignorance of our source we identify with ourselves with egoic I -conditioned mind.

Ik Oankar - One universal Eternal Absolute unchanged Awareness Being-Light-Knowledge- God- all in one, one in all- embodiment of stillness awareness, expressing itself in its movement - creating, preserving and changing creation spontaneously effortlessly. 

Which is

Satnam- Eternal Truth Pure Existence

Kartapurkh- Creative consciousness

Nirbhauo- No fear- fearless as there is only one in all, all in one- fear from what? There is NO other. Ikoankar is all, all is ikoankar

Nirvair- No enemy of anyone- since its only one in all, all in one, there is no enemy.

Akaal Moorat- Timeless Being which is one being in all, all in one- One-JOT-Light-pure knowledge form.

Ajooni- Unborn non dual pure awareness being all in one, one in all.

Gurparsad- Pure consciousness/awareness bliss is realized by grace of true Guru-Satguru-sargun-manifested Guru in form of sri guru granth sahib/ invisible alive SatGuru within all- bestowed grace.


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## N30S1NGH (Mar 25, 2015)

Here is God's natural non dual state according to Jaap sahib:

I came across recently with some deep profound gurbani quotes- Agam Gurbani sharing its ultimate truth our non dual ultimate truth nature in live present experience from Jaap sahib-

*ਅਚਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਅਮਿਤੋਜਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥*

*He who is without limit and motion, All effulgence, non-descript Ocean*


Here is commentary based on my limited understanding- Absolute non dual- our undivided spirit-atma-paratma /pure awareness nature is achal- pure motionless afor (without thoughts/forna) stillness  (morat)being -  where there is anubhav parkash- spontaneous effortless intuitive infinite parkash(bhramgyan knowledge), unfathomable ocean of knowledge.



*ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ॥ ਨਿਸ ਦਿਨ ਅਨਾਸ ॥
अनभउ प्रकास ॥ निस दिन अनास ॥
Thou art Self-luminous and remianest the same during day and night.*



Here is commentary based on my limited understanding- Undivided Non dual Absolute truth(thou art) is embodiment of spontaneous effortless intuitive infinite parkash(bhramgyan knowledge) always remain the same during day and night.


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