# Guru Ji's Paintings In The House: Admire As Art, Show Respect, Or Should Not Keep!



## Ambarsaria (Oct 30, 2011)

Following are examples of some paintings of our Guru ji's (per vision of the painter),


I consider these to be very fine paintings.  We have one of such in our family room. I have come across people who have differing opinions.

I will share my family's experience.



 I like them as a nice painting that kind of provides or emanates peacefulness.
 I have seen my mom do two joined hands bow when she leaves the room to go to her bedroom saying things like,
"Baba Guru Nanak sabh dah bhallah kareen/_Baba Guru Nanak let goodwill prevail for all_."​
Others are indifferent
 What do you think,

1.  It is OK to have these paintings in the house.
2.  How to treat these.
3.  Shouldn't have these in the house.

Thanks you.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 30, 2011)

I have all 3..and more besides...all in very good shape...
I used to have them displayed on my walls...
Now they are in the store room...and walls have been graced with Gurbani Tuks transformed into heavenly wallpapers with meanings in English and Punjabi....
Visitors to my home now have lots more questions..discussions..about the GURU..
I am much happier now......


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## aristotle (Oct 31, 2011)

It is very much okay if you have these paintings in your house, although it may not be all fine if you worship them. I've seen people waving incense sticks and prostrating in front of these paintings as if they were real people. If you ask for a one line answer, it would be,
"It is OK to have these paintings in the house."


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 31, 2011)

aristotle said:


> It is very much okay if you have these paintings in your house, although it may not be all fine if you worship them. I've seen people waving incense sticks and prostrating in front of these paintings as if they were real people. If you ask for a one line answer, it would be,
> "It is OK to have these paintings in the house."


Aristotle ji this raises a pretty fundamental and tricky question.  We are all different and different things give happiness and peace and all things good in different ways.  For example it is my 94 year old mom who does so in front of the following painting,







> I have seen my mom do two joined hands bow when she leaves the room to go to her bedroom saying things like,"Baba Guru Nanak sabh dah bhallah kareen/_Baba Guru Nanak let goodwill prevail for all_."​


I understand that one should not preach, teach or encourage worship of such paintings but if some innocent soul does get happiness, solace or benefits out of doing such, what gives us the right to judge or question?

It also kind of relates to a comment of one close to me in terms of a simple dialog about Babeys and Sants which I detest most of for their exploitation of the sheepish followers.  The observation from my friend was that, "Some people really want to have a touchy, feely and live person to look up to".  I had no rebuttal at the simplest and straight forward level.

I recognize that for Sikhs Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a living Guru ji.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 1, 2011)

I think we should have paintings depicting the very first SYMBOL of SGGS  as this SYMBOL is real GUR MOORATi.

PRAKASH.S.BAGGA


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 1, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I think we should have paintings depicting the very first SYMBOL of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji  as this SYMBOL is real GUR MOORATi.
> 
> PRAKASH.S.BAGGA



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Exactly my thought as well. I would also want the Khanda that we normally use as a Sikh symbol to be substituted by ੴ because the fact of the matter is that no one knows the history of Khanda and its true meaning which is all made up. Many claim that Khanda was the invention of the Brits.

In the Interfaith Forum in which I participate, the symbol of Khanda will be substituted with ੴ and the depiction around it would be- One Source of All there _*IS*_.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 1, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji and Prakash.S.Bagga ji I agree.  Perhaps we can encourage the young to do innovative paintings around such great ideas.






Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 1, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

We can request our in home wonderful artist Bhagat Singh to do that for us.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 1, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
Thanks for your appreciation .I have one suggestion in reference to the depiction of SYMBOL from SGGS. We can see that generally we depict this SYMBOL in two parts with Numerical Number as separate from the word Onkaar.It would be more meaningful to have Numerical Number along with word as COMPOSITE  so that we have a SINGLE COMPOSITE FIG comprising of Numerical Number,Word and KAAR together.

Regarding depiction of KHANDA I feel that this should be depicted as an Separate Image.This is so as from Gurbani we can learn  that any image can not be refered as MOORATi.What image can be refered as MOORATi this is defined in Gurbani.So this I think Should be an important consideartion in depiction of any iMage.

I am strongly for that KHANDA should also be depicted as Respectable Image for being KHALSAA.But this image and GuR MOORATi should be separate not mixed together.

These are my personal views for your consideration only.
Wih regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 1, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
I am still looking for some meaning ful depiction of GUR MOORATi andif Bhagat Singh ji makes any Such I would be certainly one for that.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 1, 2011)

Prakash.s.Bagga ji there are lot of brilliant Sikhs out there.  I searched Google to find some with the following in Firefox browser,

http://www.google.ca/search?q=ik+onkar&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=YPb&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=9AewTsj8EMHu0gHZ0vW9AQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=860&sei=%20-AewTs61POG_0AG_tJTEAQ


I hope they pick up further on ideas in this thread.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
> Thanks for your appreciation .I have one suggestion in reference to the depiction of SYMBOL from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We can see that generally we depict this SYMBOL in two parts with Numerical Number as separate from the word Onkaar.It would be more meaningful to have Numerical Number along with word as COMPOSITE  so that we have a SINGLE COMPOSITE FIG comprising of Numerical Number,Word and KAAR together.
> 
> Regarding depiction of KHANDA I feel that this should be depicted as an Separate Image.This is so as from Gurbani we can learn  that any image can not be refered as MOORATi.What image can be refered as MOORATi this is defined in Gurbani.So this I think Should be an important consideartion in depiction of any iMage.
> ...


Another example that you may like,






Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 1, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji

Just WONDERFUL depiction.I was really looking for such an exquisite depiction.
Many Many..........Thamks and appreciation.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 1, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
> Thanks for your appreciation .I have one suggestion in reference to the depiction of SYMBOL from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We can see that generally we depict this SYMBOL in two parts with Numerical Number as separate from the word Onkaar.It would be more meaningful to have Numerical Number along with word as COMPOSITE  so that we have a SINGLE COMPOSITE FIG comprising of Numerical Number,Word and KAAR together.
> 
> Regarding depiction of KHANDA I feel that this should be depicted as an Separate Image.This is so as from Gurbani we can learn  that any image can not be refered as MOORATi.What image can be refered as MOORATi this is defined in Gurbani.So this I think Should be an important consideartion in depiction of any iMage.
> ...



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Would you please shed some light on the origin and significance of Khanda? Please share some historical references so that we can learn from it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 1, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
Frankly and truely speaking I have no idea about the significance of Khanda.I have 
very limited interest in any History.and I have been devoting more and more time in understanding SGGS which I still continue to do so..
I feel in respect of History I can learn more from your side.It would be my pleasure .
With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

All, is not Khanda just the following which has been kind of hijacked into the more popular crossed swords with Chakar and Khanda in the middle,






Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 2, 2011)

Khanda    TEJWANT SINGH Ji.....I got like this




The Khanda is the symbol of the Sikhs, as the Cross is to Christians or the Star of David is to Jews. It reflects some of the fundamental concepts of Sikhism. The symbol derives its name from the double-edged sword (also called a Khanda) which appears at the center of the logo. This double-edged sword is a metaphor of Divine Knowledge, its sharp edges cleaving Truth from Falsehood. The circle around the Khanda is the Chakar. The Chakar being a circle without a beginning or and end symbolizes the perfection of God who is eternal. The Chakar is surrounded by two curved swords called Kirpans. These two swords symbolize the twin concepts of Meeri and Peeri - Temporal and Spiritual authority introduced by Guru Hargobind. They emphasize the equal emphasis that a Sikh must place on spiritual aspirations as well as obligations to society.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Janpreet (Nov 2, 2011)

Here is something (One and Only, Oh, The Infinite) I create about 5 years ago :


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## Janpreet (Nov 2, 2011)

The day we understand that our Guru is Shabad, from that day we won't need imaginary pics of our Gurus.:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 2, 2011)

JANPREET Ji,
I think you are considering the meaning of the word Eko as one word.Although the word Eko is Single word but this word Eko actually is the reference for a pair of two Single words as Eku.Eku. This would be most interesting part of understanding about the word Eko.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Khanda    TEJWANT SINGH Ji.....I got like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Prakash.s.bagga ji I beg to differ on Khanda.  

1.  The reference to Khanda is avaialable in Sikh Reht Maryada and it is as follows,


> At a high-level site in every                      Gurdwara should be installed the nishan sahib (Sikh flag).                      The cloth of the flag should be either of xanthic or of                      greyish blue colour and on top of the flag post, there                      should either be a spearhead or a *Khanda (a straight                      dagger with convex side edges leading to slanting top edges                      ending in a vertex). *


http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_three_chap_four.htm
(Article V, subsection (r))

2.  There is no reference to Chakra in Sikh Reht Maryada or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji from what I know.

3.  There is no reference to miri-piri in Sikh Reht Maryada or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as far as I know.

So your explanation is without foundation so far unless you provide a reference.  I agree it has become a symbol but the origin may be as an ornament, a decoration, a merchandising concept, or something else that I am not knowledgeable about.

So I believe Tejwant Singh ji's question stays unanswered.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 2, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
You have utterly misunderstood my presenttion.I have already acknowledged my ignorance about the the significance of Khanda.This is not my explanation This I got it from Googles site.
I stand for my personal views that the image of Khanda can not be considered as MOORATi as per considerations from Gurbani.
So I asked Tejwant Singh ji accordingly to share his knowledge so that I learn Something new regarding this.
Thirdly I am a purely technical person and have very little interest in any type of History I openly admit this.
I think you can consider my this explanation more correctly .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji no problem.  Sorry if there was any confusion.

I did not want readers to believe that we have an answer to this question, origin of Khanda symbology (composite depiction of two kirpans, chakar and khanda).  Your explanation makes sense and I understand it but the issue is to find a definitive reference for it.  I will probably start a different thread regarding such.

Thanks for your great help in Gurbani guidance.

Regards and yourself is always held in high regards by me even if at times it does not read such.  That is my weakness and not your fault.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

All, there are couple of older threads which cover the subject of Khanda in some detail.  I will probably move there if I have any queries,

For Example,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/28873-re-origin-khanda-symbol-sikh-insignia.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/28847-origin-of-khanda-symbol-sikh-insignia.html

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 2, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Khanda    TEJWANT SINGH Ji.....I got like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the post.I know Sikh.org has that as the explanation and  as you also mentioned before that our only symbol is ੴ. Nothing else and we should encourage all to use this as our only symbol. The beauty of Sikhi is that our Gurus kept everything in open, nothing hidden.

I have also read the similar explanations in different ways and also heard them mentioned many times in different ways.

My simple question are:

1.What is its origins?

2.Who was the designer?

3.When did this Khanda begin? (Actually the only Khanda is the two edged sword in the middle).

From my own research I have not found anything but I have been told that this Khanda is the invention of the Brits as were the different tribal regiments in the armed forces to keep some kind of unity. The Brits created 2 Sikh regiments: Sikh for the higher caste ones and Silkli for the lower caste ones. All soldiers had to belong to these castes/ tribes but the officers could be from any background.

This Khanda 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




symbol is many times confused with the Iranian symbol.

Talking about the Iranian symbol: The following has some interesting 
titbits.

Regrards.

Tejwant Singh


http://iranpoliticsclub.net/flags/IRI/index.htm
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Pictorial                History of Iranian Flags
              Iran Flags' History
a book by Ahreeman X*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Chapter                Nine*
*Interim Government and Islamic Republic                of Iran's Flags and Insignias*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
*Flag of The Interim Government*
*Transitional Period 1979 - 1980*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
*Origins of Islamic Republic of Iran's Flag*
*Roots and Meaning of the Islamic Republic                of Iran's Flag*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ruhollah Khomeini                had Indian roots. The emblem which he chosen for Islamic Republic's                Flag, originally has been copied from The Indian Sikh Emblem! So                basically he revised and minor-changed the old Sikh Logo and placed                it on the Persian Flag. This is the ultimate insult to an 8000 years                old Persian Culture! Not to mention that Khomeini was a thief (stealing                Sikh's logo), yet he was also a traitor (by placing the Sikh Logo                on the Persian Banner! Khomeini, Mullahs, Hezbollah, Muslim and                Islamic Republic have no identity, even their official emblem is                stolen from Indian Sikhs![/FONT]





              [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Indian                Sikh khalistan National Flag*
*(Roots of The Islamic Republic Emblem and Flag)*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




*Indian Sikh khalistan Republic in Exile*
*(Roots of The Islamic Republic Emblem and Flag)*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




*Indian Sikh Triangle Religious Banner
              (Roots of The Islamic Republic Emblem and Flag)*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




*Indian Sikh Triangle Flag
              (Roots of The Islamic Republic Emblem and Flag)*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




*Indian Sikh Emblem
              (Roots of The Islamic Republic Emblem and Flag)*[/FONT]





              [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Flag                of Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI)*
*The IRI Allah Flag (1980 - ?)*
              The Allah Emblem of the IRI Flag is a revised version of the Indian                Sikh Logo. Khomeini, Mullahs, Hezbollah and Muslim had turned the                Sikh Logo to an Islamic Allah! The Spider-looking Emblem put in                the center of the Iranian Flag (instead of Lion and Sun) is in fact,                the name of the Arabo-Muslim God, Allah.[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any way you                look at it, this is an insult to Iran and Iranians! The Emblem is                an Arabo-Indian Logo: Indian, because it has been stolen from Indian                Sikh Flag by Khomeini; and Arab, because it is the name of Allah,                the Arabo-Muslim God! Why is this abomination emblem on the glorious                Persian Flag? Because our nation in under the occupation of AIOG                (Arabo-Islamic Occupational Government).[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Muslim had kept                the Green, White and Red; yet, added 2 horizontal stripes of writings,                one on top (on the edge of green and white) and one on bottom (on                the edge of red and white)! The writing strips are in Arabic and                it reads:[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Allah O Akbar                (Repeatedly) which translates to "Allah is Great"!
[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How sad is it                for Iranians with 8000 years of culture to presently, have a flag                which does not even represents Iran?! A Flag with Indiano-Sikh Logo                and Arabo-Islamic words, reading Allah is Great! Soon or late, true                Iranians need to decide between "Islam" or "Iran"?                You are either Muslim or Iranian, but cannot be both, so which is                it? You are either an Iranian or you are an Arab Worshiper (Muslim),                so which is it?[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Islamic                Republic of Iran, Allah Emblem*
*(Arabo-Islamic Spider-looking Object!)*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




*Islamic Republic of Iran, Qods Emblem
              Islamic Revolutionary Guards
              Qods Special Forces Units*[/FONT]
             [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*n*[/FONT]


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for the Iranian references.  It appears we have agents planted everywhere lol.  

When are we going to take over the world and create the "New Sikh Order" for all to love creation that is all around and live in consonance with all from the inside out.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 2, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
Well it is really interesting information from your side, I am sure you must be having Military Background in your life period.These Symbols are more for political assertion rather than spritual tools.

In SGGS we do find the use of the word refering to Khanda.Here the word Khanda is a metaphor to represent Neutral Thinking of the mind to understand every positive or negatives as same.That is What I gather from the context of Gurbani.

Thanking you for sharing the views ,
With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

My veer Prakash.s.bagga ji may be you are getting tired of my (hugs)  mundahug, I totally agree with the following in your post,



> In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we do find the use of the word refering to Khanda.Here the word Khanda is a metaphor to represent Neutral Thinking of the mind to understand every positive or negatives as same.That is What I gather from the context of Gurbani.


 Thanks for your inputs.

Do visit the links I posted earlier, as these elaborate and give other Gurbani references too along the same lines.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2011)

beautiful thread, wonderful posts, for the record, I think anyone who uses a photo to focus their devotion is doing nothing wrong at all, having Guru's photographs is a reminder of the human being we wish to emulate, putting hands together is a mark of respect, the prayer itself is directed at Creator. 

I cannot add much to this thread but it is wonderful to see you three giants in harmony


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 2, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
> In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we do find the use of the word refering to Khanda.Here the word Khanda is a metaphor to represent Neutral Thinking of the mind to understand every positive or negatives as same.That is What I gather from the context of Gurbani.



Parkash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am aware of that but our discussion was strictly on the origins and the true meaning of the Khanda as insignia. As mentioned before, Khanda is actually what is in the middle- the double edged sword.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Parkash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


Tejwant Singh ji we can perhaps start to build a date froward for it.  The following painting is Dated at samat Guru Nanak ji ka 408.  So I assume it put the date as 1877 (1469 +408).  Worth noting that there is no Khanda symbol shown by the painter,






I also found another post on another forum which appears very plausible and it is quoted below,



> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> Like many cultural ideas and items introduced by the Singh Sabha movement the Khanda is another symbol introduced in Sikhism at about the same time by modifying the Ajgaha used by Nihangs on the front of their dastars.
> ...


The true Khanda of course required tall, strong Sikhs with heavier build to carry and use it.    It perhaps was the strongest and heaviest hand held armament during the Sikh battles and wars pre Maharajah Ranjit Singh and the misls.






British Military badge for Sikh Army contingents.






So all signs point towards the period of Singh Sabha Movement time frames to define the shape of the Khanda as it is today or early 1900s.  There appear close similies but not the exact arrangement as it is today in old artifacts.

The interpretations touch on two extremes of all military weaponry/arms to spiritual symbology discussed earlier in this thread.

Hope it is of help.

Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 3, 2011)

In Praise of Steel Nihang History -Davinder Singh Toor      - YouTube

Watch it very closely Ambarsaria ji. I think you will enjoy the entire thing eventhough Khanda-related material appears only briefly.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks Veer Bhagat Singh ji I watched the whole video.

Very nicely done.  So in this video Davinder.S.Toor alludes that the early spotting of the modern Khanda symbol was around 1903.

People looking for this part can go forward to 39' 35" onwards.  I would highly recommend all to watch this video.






Sat Sri Akal.


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