# Who Are The Gurus?



## justrandeepsingh (Oct 16, 2004)

Waheguru Ji Ke Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

Who are our ten gurus?
Are they God?
Are they an aspect of God?
Were the sent by God?
Are they one with God?
Are they prophets from God?
Please in detail describe our gurus' relationship to God using some referances.

--Gurfateh


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## S|kH (Oct 17, 2004)

The Gurus were human beings that became one with God. 


They were not sent by God -- It took 30 years before Guru Nanak had completely began to change the region...there was no "baby Nanak" similar to Baby Jesus's birth. Guru Nanaks birth was not prophecized. 

They are not prophets from God -- None of them claimed knowledge of the future and its holdings. 

They are not aspects of God -- They just speak the message, which they think is God's true message. This is shown because the Gurus acknowledged other pathways to finding God. They knew, that they only speak one certain message to get to God. Guru Nanak denounced the multiple Gods in Hinduism that claimed to be aspects of the one true God....but one can also argue, that everyone is an aspect of God.

The Introduction of the book "Soft Target" does a nice analysis on Guru Nanak's history, and his childhood. Some of these questions are answered there.


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## The lion king (Oct 20, 2004)

Does that mean we can all become gurus? if so, then we do not need a guru to lead us to god....?

can god not be achieved thruogh self realization? without a guru, prophet, enlightener, saga?

i was once posed with this comment

"If you're saying that you need a guru, then I say let your heart be your guru"

what will be the best reply to the best of ur knowledge?

there is also a thread on this:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/your-signatures-please.818/


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## Astroboy (Aug 19, 2007)

*Spreading the message.*
Guru Angad Dev Ji (1504-1552) gave a new form to the gurmukhi alphabet. , to spread the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji


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## Astroboy (Aug 19, 2007)

The Guru Raised Me From the Lowliest Position 











Bhai Jetha Ji used to earn his livelihood by selling boiled grains. Very often he would freely give away the boiled grains to the needy and to the poor laborers. Guru Amar Das was highly impressed by his charitable nature and blessed the young boy. Ultimately the divine succession was bestowed on him, he was named Ram Das and was installed as the Fourth Guru.


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

The  Invincible Guru










Several fruitless efforts were made on the life of (Guru) Hargobind right from his infancy. A snake-charmer was bribed who let loose a poisonous snake. But the great
(Guru), overpowered the snake.


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

The Robe of Honor  









Baba Amar Das served Sri Guru Angad Dev with utmost devotion and dedication. Besides fetching water from the river Beas for Master's bath every day, he would serve in the Langar. Every year the Guru acknowledged his services by conferring upon him robe of honor which the Great Guru wrapped around his head. Baba Amar Das was decorated with the Siropi seven times. Seva is one of the main tenets of Sikhism, exemplified through the lives of Gurus.


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

Listen to this history of our Gurus.
YouTube - Miri Piri Khalsa - Satgur Ki Safal He


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

The Ethics Of a Shop-Keeper










Guru Nanak had joined as a Modi (storekeeper) of Daulat Khan Lodi at Sultanpur. Everyone hailed Nanak, as he was fair in his dealings. He used to say that an honest shop- keeper alone can have a- balanced personality. Only his-words carry weight. What one requires is integrity and one can achieve it being true to one's vocation.


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

Bhai Handal bowing to Guru Amar Das Ji.









Bhai Handal bowing to Guru Amar Das Ji.
The institution of Guru-ka-langur (free kitchen) was growing and becoming a great force during the time of Guru Amar Das Ji. Guru Ji ensured that social prejudices were renounced and equality of mankind accepted by all those who came to seek his blessings. Every devotee whether Hindu or Muslim, Brahmin or Shudra, rich or poor was asked to partake of food in the langur before he/she could see the Guru.
Once when Guru Ji came to visit the langar Bhai Handal Ji was kneading dough. He was delighted to see Guru Ji and as he prepared to bow he realised that to maintain cleanliness he needed to keep his hands off the floor. He put his hands behind his back and bowed infront of Guru Ji. Guru Amar Das ji was greatly impressed and appointed him as a preacher. He went back to his home town of Jandiala and started preaching the Guru's message


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

The Drought at Chheharata  










To mitigate the suffering of drought affected people, Guru Arjan Dev ordered digging up of wells. A multi-purpose well constructed at village Chheharata was so wide that six persian wheels around it could operate simultaneously. Availability of water and greening of area brought relief to the people and cattle alike.


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

*The Blessing*









Prema Chaudhri, who had become a leper, once, fell at the feet of Guru Amar Ms. Guru Sahib blessed him, gave him a bath with his own hands, restored him to good health and called him, 'My son Murari.' He got him married to Matho and made them an ideal couple.​


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

Belittling the Caste-System 










Guru Nanak Dev disparagingly condemned caste-prejudices. To do away with this social malady he set an example. He visited Bhai Lalo an 'out-caste', and both had their meals together, giving a shocking surprise to the village-folk. Moreover, Mardana, the life-long companion of Guru Sahib was minstrel, coming from 'low-caste'.​


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## spnadmin (Aug 20, 2007)

These are really great pics and blurbs, Begum ji. I have not seen them before. Always wait to see what you have posted each day.


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## Astroboy (Aug 20, 2007)

Curing a Leper  









During his first Udasi - preaching odyssey - Guru Nanak (1469 - 1539 CE)along with Bhai Mardana visited Goindwal, now in district Amritsar. Here, he called on a leper and asked him to permit them to spend a night in his cottage. the leper was amazed and filled with joy and said, 'Even the animals would not come nearby. Because of the Grace of God I have come across a human being.' Whereas, at the very sight of Guru Sahib the leper was cured of leprosy. These are the ways of 'Men of God', who by way of Compassion cure the ills of humanity​


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 21, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

This is a great query. Who are the Gurus?

Begum Jee has shown many paintings. Does he want to say that the Gurus are the paintings or a part of it?
Should Sikhs now believe that True Guru is not only Sabad but a painted picture also?


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

Balbir Jee,
Leave these pictures for the kids. You are too advanced level for all of us. But I will never consider YOU as my guru.


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

The Cobra Provides the Shade  










Once the young Nanak had taken his cattle for grazing in the fields. As he lay resting, the sunrays fell on his face, after some time. A cobra crawled out of its hiding place and spread its hood to provide shade over young Nanak’s divine face. The local official of the village, Rae Bular, noticed this miracle as he was passing that way. He had sent for Nanak’s father, Mehta Kalu, and told him, 'Kalu! Don’t curse your son. He is a Great Being. My village survives because of his Grace. Kalu! Both of us are blessed as he is born in our village.​


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

The Bebe Nanaki - The First Sikh 








A sister's love for her brother is a perennial theme of Punjabi folklore. Janam Sakhis tell us of several stories depicting Bebe Nanaki (b. 1464 CE) love for her brother Nanak. Bebe Nanaki was the first to recognize Nanak, one blessed by God. She is seen here with her husband Jai Ram, as Mardana the ministerial, receives the rebeck on which he accompanied Guru Nanak, singing his divinely inspired songs. This was before Guru Nanak set out on his preaching odyssey' accompanied by Bhai Mardana​


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

Bhai Mardana









Bhai Mardana (1459-1534 CE) accompanied Guru Nanak Dev by playing on rebeck, when the latter used to Sing the Glory of God.​


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

Khivi: A Pious Lady  











Mata Khivi was noble soul and reveled in serving her Master and his Sikhs. She toiled lovingly in the Guru-Ka-Langar, and served the Guru's disciple with utmost courtesy and joy. The Guru-Ka-Langar in her hands was a source of unlimited bounty and the harbinger of a new social consciousness.​


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

Mata Khivi 










Despite the fact that Mata Khivi (d. 1582 CE) was wife of Guru Angad Dev, she rendered service in utmost humility. She used to supervise the Langar and serve food with her own hands, which was always available to everyone.​Mata Ji toiled lovingly in _Guru - ka - langar_ and served Guru Angad Dev Ji's disciples with utmost humility and joy.


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## Astroboy (Aug 21, 2007)

Supporting The Supportless 










The first duty Guru Angad Dev performed after his morning devotions and listening to Kirtan - singing the Glory, of God - in the congregation, was to tend the sick and succour the needy. His healing touch and loving Compassion relieved many of their pains and distresses.


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## TGill (Aug 21, 2007)

Awesome pics begum ji !! Thanks

If Bhagat Dhana could find Guru in a stone, whats wrong with these pics...
All know where true Guru resides.
Better let the guru find us, who knows where the true Guru reside. I know I'm totally contradicting myself but what does this mind know of him.

nmo nmo nmo nmo nmo net net hai....

Gur Satgur ka jo sikh akhae so bhalke udh har naam thiawe
udam kare bhalke parbhate ishnaan kare amritsar naawe
updes guru har har jap jape sab kilbikh paap dokh leh jaawe

din charhe diwas gur bani gaawe behndea udhdean har naam thiawe
jo saas giras thiawe mera har har so gursikh guru mann bhawe


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Family is the basic structure and  unit  in Sikhism. It is a strong and noble Sikh institution. Family was most important to all the Gurus who preached life of a householder rather than of renunciation. The Gurus believed that the family must  procreate and continue the existence of the society. The family has economic and educational functions to perform so that family life becomes smooth and happy.  
[SIZE=-1]Sikhism teaches the followers  to build a social structure on the basis of universal brotherhood, love for each other, equality, fraternity and _Sarbat-Da-Bhala_. It believes in individual as well as collective prosperity. It preaches that the human beings are sons and daughters of the same universal father (God). All of them have the same aim of realizing the ultimate Reality. Human race is one.[/SIZE] 
Sikhism recommends an active life in which family has a great role to play. Life of a householder is the best institution to fulfill the Sikh ideal of contributing to the development of the human society. Here the children learn to know the individual  as well as the corporate Code of  Sikh Conduct through this institution.  
Family in Sikhism is a training school for social, cultural, political and spiritual makeup. It is a training school for Seva  and charity.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

Dal singh ji

Begum ji has put what i wanted to explain as best.

You wanted answers to what to do to improve "sikh Qoum" or whatever is your idea....

here are the answers..

Make sure your children grow up to be good sikhs and educated, responsible, patriotic citizens

this would solve all the problems


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

hence my statement:

"charity begins at home"


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

What does Gurmat say about helping yourself flourish and creating feelings of personal well-being by mending family enstrangement ?


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 22, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Begum Jee!

These paintings are good but under the wrong heading. Not any face in the paintings represents the True Gurus.

Children's mind is like the empty photo film. A snap on that remains for always. On the spiritual development a presumed imagination hinders.

Painters existed during the Guru's time too, but they never encouraged any painting of them. 

The topic is 'Who are the gurus?' The paintings give the impression that these are the True Gurus. Those are only the imaginations of a painter though.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 22, 2007)

Begum

*You make others do more khoj on Gurbani and as a result, you are helping them, me too. 

*This is actually happening to me too. More and more reading and thinking. I am finding Balbir's questions almost perfect for the socratic method of analyzing a problem. We may come to different conclusions, but we are also moving away from rigid mind-sets.

But keep the pictures up. They are good for big kids like me.


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Let's discuss the pros and cons of art and pictures in Sikh history and its impact on future generations.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

i see not what you are , but what you could be

and i give to you, power to BE


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

in my opinion,

pictures paintings are artistic expression

only the one who clicked those or painted those understands what went through their mind..

rest all are chicanery critics or stupid admirers

coming to impact on religion

if we help our kids grow up from childhood to grasp the abstract, it would be great

but it is not always possible.

let's come to grasps with it..

why do we tell sakhis of bravery to kids...

1. to give them role models and to help them understand underlying message
2. but we also in averdently give them a sense of pride


as long as we are able to limit it to first it should be fine

but pride creeps in ... Sikhi is better than others....or we have "more" sacrifices.... we are the bravest....

these feelings actually hamper spiritual growth..

let us ponder how to deliver the message but not the attachments...


as i said before...

your best contribution to world could actually be raising kids who are better than you.


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

That reminds me of Yogi Bhajan's lecture of being the pipe to allow the flow of water. He mentioned, pipe and water are different. Water is forever but pipe will deteriorate. 

Here is some tribal music to sooth the tension.


Mongolian Singers (I love this music) 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n6NCTHpVh1A 

Tibetan Music 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sUMBgcQwaxc&mode=related&search=


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

beautiful music

thank you begum ji


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## TGill (Aug 22, 2007)

But why is a picture hindrance to the spiritual growth. Even if it is a wrong picture, how does it act as a hindrance ?

Why then thinking of Guru Granth sahib as guru himself in body not a spiritual hindrance?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

fixation


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

A Gurmukh Is Always Humble 









Datu (b. 1537 AD), son of Guru Angad Dev, considered himself to be the claimant of 'Gurgaddi', which he however could not ascend to. Deeply frustrated, Datu struck Guru Amar Das with his foot when he was seated on 'Gurgaddi.' With a rare display of sweetness and humility, the Guru kept seated on the 'Gurgaddi' and did not utter a word of anguish. Rather, he observed, "Your foot must have been hurt by my hard bones." Guru Sahib did not act by way of coercion but displayed his compassion.​


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Faith  









Bhai Paro Paramhans went daily from Dalla (Sultanpur, Doaba) to pay his respects to Guru Amar Das, come what may, storm or rain. The Nawab of Jalandhar, Abdullah, marveled at his determination and forbearance when he saw Bhai Paro crossing Beas even when it was in heavy floods. The Guru was so pleased that he was inclined to make him his successor. Bhai Paro said in all humility, 'For me it is a great honor to be the Guru's devotee.'


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## spnadmin (Aug 22, 2007)

I collect pictures of Guru Nanaak. He is always smiling. Can you imagine, even when times were hard?  Sometimes I have a sense almost of his vibration across time. Actually the pictures are not about worship and idolatry -- but just something to ponder and to fix my reflections on all sorts of things. They have a calming effect.


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

1. Who wrote Mool Mantra? 
Savaiyeee by Guru Gobind Singh
Sukhmani by Guru Arjan Dev ji
Guru Nanak Dev ji
Assa di var by Guru Nanak dev ji

2. Who are Sons of Guru Gobind Singh? 
Ajit Singh and Jujhar Singh
Zorawar Singh and Fateh Singh
The Khalsa
All of the Above

3. When and where was Khalsa Panth created? 
30th March, 1699 A.D. at Anandpur Sahib
30th March, 1699 A.D. at Golden Temple
30th March, 1699 A.D. at Patna sahib
30th March, 1699 A.D. at Hazoor sahib

4. The first Sikh Martyr was ? 
Guru Nanak Dev ji
Guru Arjan Dev ji
Guru Hargobind ji
Guru Tegh Bahadur ji

5. Akal Takht was established as supreme center for Sikh political activities by?
 Guru Hargobind ji
Guru Tegh Bahadur ji
Guru Nanak Dev ji
Guru Arjan Dev ji
Guru Ramdas ji

6. The first Sikh warrior was ? 
Guru Tegh Bahadur ji
Guru Hargobind ji
Baba Buddha ji
Bhai Bidhi chand
Guru Gobind Singh

7. Wadda Ghalughara happened when ? 
Meer Mannu declared bounty for heads of dead Sikhs
Lakhpat Rai killed 15,000 Sikhs at Kahnuwan
30th March, 1699 A.D. at Hazoor sahib
Abdali killed 30,000 Sikh men, women and children at kup

8. Chhota Ghalughara happened when ? 
Meer Mannu declared bounty for heads of ded Sikhs
Lakhpat Rai killed 15,000 Sikhs at Kahnuwan
30th March, 1699 A.D. at Hazoor sahib
Abdali killed 30,000 Sikh men, women and children at kup

9. The only Sikh who has seen 6 Gurus is ?
Bhai Bidhi Chand
Bhai Mani Singh
Baba Buddha ji
Bhai Taru ji
Bibi Bhani ji

10. Martyr who allowed his scalp to be chopped off but not his hair was ? 
Bhai Bidhi Chand
Bhai Mani Singh
Baba Buddha ji
Bhai Taru ji
Bibi Bhani ji

11. Mai Bhago ji is revered as ? 
Mother of a Guru
Great Sikh warrior
Sikh preacher
Great Sikh Martyr
Great Sikh Leader

12. Bibi Bhani ji is revered as? 
Mother of a Guru
Daughter of a Guru
Sikh preacher
Great Sikh Leader
All of the above

13. A specific movement againt Sati Pratha and Casteism and for widow marriage was started by ? 
Guru Nanak Dev ji
Guru Ramdas ji
Guru Arjan Dev ji
Guru Gobind Singh ji
Guru Amardas ji

14. Bhai Subeg Singh and Bhai Shahbaz Singh were ? 
friends
not related
enemies
Great Sikh martyrs

15. Guru Gobind Singh was? 
10th Sikh guru
A Poet
Great Sikh Warrior
Great Sikh Martyr
All of the above

16. Bidhi Chand got back horses gifted to Guru Hargobind from ? 
Mughals
Afghanis
British
Rohillas

17. Saka Punja Sahib happened when ?
Mahant Narain Das killed Sikhs at Nankana
Meer Mannu killed Sikh infants
Zakriya Khan levied bounty on Sikhs
British Train Ran over Sikhs
Gurdwara Punja Sahib was freed

18. Saka Nankana Sahib happened when ? 
Mahant Narain Das killed Sikhs at Nankana
Meer Mannu killed Sikh infants
Zakriya Khan levied bounty on Sikhs
British Train Ran over Sikhs
Gurdwara Punja Sahib was freed

19. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was grandson of ? 
Bhai Mani Singh
Baba Buddha ji
Bhai Taru ji
Bhai Charat Singh
Bibi Bhani ji

20. Hari Singh Nalua was ? 
saint
a coward
Great Sikh leader
Great Sikh Martyr
Great Sikh Warrior

21. Bhai Jaita Singh ji Rangreta , Guru ka Beta was?
 saint
Great Sikh Warrior
Contemporary of Guru Nanak
Great Sikh leader
Great Sikh Martyr

22. Baghel Singh Dhaliwal got constructed? 
Gurdwaras in UP
Fatehgarh sahib at Sarhind
All Gurdwaras in Delhi
Gurdwara Patna Sahib
Gurdwara Hazoor Sahib

23. Makkhan Shah in Sikh History is revered for ? 
Avenging martyrdom of ninth Guru
Constructing many gurdwaras
raising an army
freeing sixth guru from prison
finding Ninth Guru at Bakala

24. Mahant Narain Das killed hundreds of Sikhs at ? 
Gurdwara Shaheedan Lahore
Gurdwara Nankana Sahib
Gurdwara Gangsar Jaito
Gurdwara Darbar Sahib, Tarntaran
Gurdwara Punja Sahib

25. In 1947, more then 50% of Sikhs were left homeless due to? 
religious bigotry of muslim leader Jinnah
killings by Hindu leaders
Bangladesh was created
Punjab was divided into two states in India


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 22, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Begum Jee!

When will you display the sculptures (moorties) of the Gurus?

Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Bhai Banno 











Bhai Banno's services in the construction of Harimandir Sahib are significant. On completion of Harimandir Sahib someone asked Guru Sahib as to who should be served the platter first according to the established practices. Guru Sahib said "Whoever has done service everyday by remaining modest and keeping his low profile." Guru Arjan Dev honored Bhai Banno by placing the first platter of the feast before him.


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

The Baoli of Goindwal 











Realising that the water of the beas river was not for human consumption, Guru Amar Dass constructed a Baoli at Goindwal, covering the entire area with trees This not only provided safe drinking water to the people but also helped to create an eco-friendly environment..


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Guru Amar Das Ji Fetching water









(Guru) Amar Das Ji filling water in a gagar (brass pitcher) from the river Beas early in the morning for Guru Angad Dev Ji to bathe with.
(Guru) Amar Das ji took up residence at Gowindwal at the request of Guru Angad Dev Ji. Early each morning (Guru) Amar Das Ji would fill a gagar of water and walk all the way to Khadur for Guru Ji's bathing. Then would walk all the way back but never turning his back towards Guru Angad Dev Ji. Thus (Guru) Amar Das Ji served Guru Angad Dev Ji for twelve years.


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Creation of Baoli Sahib









Devotees bathing in Baoli Sahib
A Baoli is a staircase leading to water. The Baoli Sahib was contructed by Guru Amar Das Ji after Sikhs were prevented from fetching water from a local source. The digging started in 1556 and completed in 1559. The Baoli Sahib was completed with 84 steps.


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

Dear Amarsanghera ji
- What kind of fixation are you talking about, does this have anything to do with the saying of Buddha that ' If you see me on the path, kill me'. Sherab ji, you must have something to share on this !
- why are we told to see Guru granth sahib as living guru then, will it not cause fixation ? 
Bhul chuk maaf


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## drkhalsa (Aug 23, 2007)

> Devotees bathing in Baoli Sahib
> A Baoli is a staircase leading to water. The Baoli Sahib was contructed by Guru Amar Das Ji after Sikhs were prevented from fetching water from a local source. The digging started in 1556 and completed in 1559. The Baoli Sahib was completed with 84 steps.



Interesting thing about he pic is !
One Muslim Guy taking bath in Baoli Saahib 

I know from various sources that it was like this in olden times when muslim used to visit quite often Gurdwara and congretion


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

what's so interesting in that Khalsa ji, probably he is  just a sikh wearing cap. (not possible  ) .
- more interesting than that is everyone is having their eyes closed. Why would that be so ?


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## Astroboy (Aug 23, 2007)

The Dastar of the Sikhs 

 
The Dastar (Turban) of the Sikhs
*Historical Background*
Turban is and has been an inseparable part of a Sikh's life. Since Guru Nanak Dev, the founder of Sikhism, all Sikhs have been wearing turbans. Refer to Dr. Trilochan Singh's "Biography of Guru Nanak Dev." All Sikh Gurus wore turbans. The Sikh Rehat Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct) specifically says that all Sikhs must wear a turban. According to the Rehatnama of Bhai Chaupa Singh, who was a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the five Kakars of Sikhism were: Kachh (a special underwear), Karha (a steel bracelet), Kirpan (small sword), Kangha (comb) and Keski (a small turban).
Guru Gobind Singh says,
*"Kangha dono vakt kar, paag chune kar bandhai."*
Translation:
"Comb your hair twice a day and tie your turban carefully, turn by turn."
Bhai Chaupa Singh says,
*"Kachh, karha, kirpan, kangha, keski, Eh panj kakar rehat dhare Sikh soi."*
Translation:
The five Kakars of Sikhism are special underwear, steel bracelet, sword, comb, and small turban. A person who wears all these Sikh symbols should be considered a Sikh.
Several ancient Sikh documents refer to the order of Guru Gobind Singh about wearing five Ks. Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu is one of the most famous ancient Sikh historians. He is the author of "Sri Gur Panth Parkash" which he wrote almost two centuries ago. He writes,
*"Doi vele utth bandhyo dastare, pahar aatth rakhyo shastar sambhare |
. . .
Kesan ki kijo pritpal, nah(i) ustran se katyo vaal |"*
Translation:
"Tie your turban twice a day and carefully wear weapons 24
hours a day.
. . .
Take good care of your hair. Do not cut your hair."

("Sri Gur Granth Parkash" by Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu, page 78)
*The following information describes the importance of turban !* 
*Holiness and Spirituality*
Turban is a symbol of spirituality and holiness in Sikhism. When Guru Ram Dass Ji left for heavenly abode, his elder son Pirthi Chand wore a turban, which is usually worn by an elder son when his father passes away. (In the same manner) Guru Arjan Dev was honored with the turban of Guruship.
*Marne di pag Pirthiye badhi. Guriyaee pag Arjan Ladhi.

*("Partakh Hari," Jiwni Guru Arjan Dev Ji, by Principal Satbir Singh)
Guru Angad Dev honored Guru Amardas ji with a turban (Siropa) when he was made the Guru.
Baptism ceremony is one of the most important ceremonies in a Sikhs' life. That ceremony cannot be completed without wearing a turban.
The most revered Sikh symbol is hair. The turban is required of every Sikh in order to cover his/her hair. This is the primary reason the comb (kangha) is one of the five requirements in the Sikh way of life.
Guru Angad Dev ji honored Guru Amardas ji with a turban (Siropa) when he was made the Guru. Similarly, the Turban (Dastaar) has remained the key aspect in a Sikh's honor. Those who have selflessly served the community are honored with Turbans.
Baptism ceremony is one of the most important ceremonies in a Sikhs' life. That ceremony cannot be completed without wearing a turban. Indeed, a short-turban (called a keski) is one of the five requirements of baptized Sikhs. The most revered Sikh symbol is hair. The turban is required of every Sikh in order to cover his/her hair. This is also the primary reason the comb (kangha) is another one of the five requirements in the Sikh way of life.
All the Sikh Gurus wore turban. Throughout our short history, all Sikhs have been required to do so. The Turban has indeed become synonymous with Sikhism. Yet, other religions such as Hinduism, Islam and even Christianity have similar tenets as evidenced by the following:
*Once they enter the gates of the inner Court, they are to wear linen vestments, They shall wear linen turbans, and linen drawers on their loins.*
(Old Testament: Ezekiel 44:18-19)​*Turban as a Robe of Honor*
The highest honor that a Sikh religious organization can bestow upon any individual is a Siropa. It is a blessing of the Guru which is bestowed upon a person who has devoted a major portion of his/her life for the welfare of the Sikh or the humanity in general. Sometimes a Siropa is also bestowed upon the families of Sikhs martyrs. 
*Turban in Social Life*
Muslim men and women in many countries still wear turban. It is said that the Egyptians removed their turban during mourning.
Even in Punjab removing a turban from a person's head was considered a sign of mourning . Bhai Gurdas, a Sikh savant, who was contemporary of the several Sikh Gurus writes in his Vars:
*Tthande khuhu naike pag visar(i) aya sir(i) nangai | Ghar vich
ranna(n) kamlia(n) dhussi liti dekh(i) kudhange |

*(Vara(n) Bhai Gurdas, Var 32, pauri 19)
Translation:
A person, after taking a bath at the well during winter time, forgot his turban at the well and came home bareheaded. When the women saw him at home without a turban, they thought someone had died and they started to cry.
There are many Punjabi idioms and proverbs that describe how important is a turban in one's life. 
*Pag Vatauni (Exchange of Turban)*
People in Punjab have been and still do exchange turbans with closest friends. Once they exchange turbans they become friends for life and forge a permanent relationship. They take a solemn pledge to share their joys and sorrows under all circumstances. Exchanging turban is a glue that can bind two individuals or families together for generations. 
*Turban as a Symbol of Responsibility*
People who have lived in India would know the turban tying ceremony known as Rasam Pagri (Turban Tying Ceremony). This ceremony takes place once a man passed away and his oldest son takes over the family responsibilities by tying turban in front of a large gathering. It signifies that now he has shouldered the responsibility of his father and he is the head of the family. 
*Turban and Sikh Military Life*
Turban is a symbol of honor and self-respect. The Sikh Army fought their last major battle against the British in 1845. All the Sikh soldiers and generals were wearing turbans at that time. Shah Muhammad, a great Punjabi poet and historian, who witnessed that war, writes:
*Pishe baitth sardara(n) Gurmatta kita, Koi akal da karo ilaj yaro. Sherh burshia(n) di sade pesh ayee, Pag dahrhia(n) di rakho laaj yaro.*​The Sikh chiefs took a unanimous and firm religious decision (Gurmatta), that they should have sense enough to judge the tenor of Maharani Jinda(n) Kaur and the crafty Britishers. They said that they were facing a very shrewd enemy and it was high time for them to save their honor because they were wearing turbans and beards (both symbols of self-respect).
The Sikh soldiers refused to wear helmets during World War I and World War II. They fought with turbans on their heads. A Sikh (Khalsa) is supposed to be fearless. Wearing a helmet is admitting fear of death. Many Sikhs received Victoria Cross which is one of the most prestigious gallantry awards in the British army.
Many Sikhs refused to remove turban even in jails. Bhai Randhir Singh, a widely respected Sikh preacher, scholar and a freedom fighter had to undergo a fast to win his right to wear turban in the prison. 
*High Moral Values*
Sikh history is full of facts that men and women of other faiths such as Hindus and Muslims felt safe when there was a Sikh around them. They felt secure from invaders and other people when Khalsa was around. The woman or the oppressed would feel safe and sound under the protection of "khalsa". It was a common saying in Punjab:
*"Aye nihang, booha khol de nishang"*
Translation: The Nihangs (Sikhs) are at the door. Dear woman! go ahead open the door without any fear whatsoever.
In the ancient times, the Sikhs men had to fight tough battles with the rulers. They moved from village to village at night. Sometimes they had to hide. Women folks had a very high degree of trust in the Nihangs (Sikhs) who can be clearly identified with a turban and beard. Women knew that the Nihangs (Sikhs) wore high moral character and never mistreated or molested women. So they fed them and helped them in whatever way they could. 
*Turban a Symbol of Missionary Zeal and Courage*
There are many references in the Sikh history that describe how Guru Gobind Singh personally tied beautiful dumalas (turbans) on the heads of both his elder sons Baba Ajit Singh and Baba Jujhar Singh and how he personally gave them arms, decorated them like bridegrooms, and sent them to the battlefield at Chamkaur Sahib where they both received martyrdom. When the Sikhs go to an agitation (morcha), they usually wear a saffron color turban which is a symbol of sacrifice and martyrdom. 
*Beauty*
*"khoob teri pagri, meethae tere bol"*
In the ancient Egyptian civilization turban was an ornamental head dress. They called it pjr from which is perhaps derived the word "pugree" commonly used in India and other Asian countries. 
*Kingly Turban*
Sign of Sardari.
It was meant for only kings. Minorities were not allowed to wear turban and kirpan.
*"och dumalra"*
Most Respectful
Bare head is not considered appropriate as per gurbani:
*"ud ud ravaa jhaate paaye, vekhe log hasae ghar jaaye"* 
*Identity*
It provides Sikhs a unique identity. You will see only sikhs wearing turban in western countries.
If a Sikhs likes to become one with his/her Guru, he/she must look like a Guru (wear a turban). Guru Gobind Singh has said,
*"Khalsa mero roop hai khaas. Khalse me hau karo niwas."*
Translation:
Khalsa (Sikh) is a true picture of mine. I live in a Khalsa.
According to the historical accounts, Guru Gobind Singh tied almost 18 inches high dumala (turban) just before he left for heavenly abode.

[Courtesy:Bhai Surinder Singh Ji and Bhai Tarlochan Singh Jee]


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## Astroboy (Aug 23, 2007)

See this 
YouTube - Awesome Guru Gobind Singh Ji - Bentee Chaupai


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

The times have changed begum ji, not only sikhs but every one who was respected used to wear turban in those times. It was need of the hour at that time, probably that is why Guruji asked for it (although no one here is able to establish any proof which really says that Guruji asked for it).
Now everyone is respected, Ever wonder what is the need of this hour then, what about spirituality?
Mind you I am not against turban, please wear it, it looks really good but why force others to wear it in the name of sikhism. why pass hatred in the name of non essentials, why not be a better and loving humans instead.


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

A Gateway to Sikhism

begum ji from where do you get all these links, are you google 

Just kidding


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## drkhalsa (Aug 23, 2007)

> hat's so interesting in that Khalsa ji, probably he is  just a sikh wearing cap. (not possible
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You could be right !  
as SGPC was not there to ban caps in gurdwara 
*but that man has also  mustache shaved so kinda funky sehajdari i guess , ( going by your version )*


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

LOL...:}{}{}:.. very very funky...
Is that why we should not have faith in pics...


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## Astroboy (Aug 23, 2007)

Would it make any difference if you lived 10 years or 85 ?  A dog's age is one 7th of human's,  yet it has all the time to be better and loving creature. So what does one live for ?  What is the purpose of your life ? Who do you live for and what are your reasons? 

I'm not saying living is bad. Go ahead and continue living your life for the next 20 years. And if those 20 years have passed and now we're talking, so what have you achieved in those 20 years. Eaten alot of deg. Done alot of paath yet don't have any clue why!!!

Did this and that meditation, yoga, "satsangs", radhasoami, eckankar, prem rawat, ruhani satsang, sufism, white magic, palmistry, numerology, tarot, i-ching, taoism, buddhism, vedanta, rehan sebai, etc. ...... why then that dissatisfaction ? 

Where should one's dhyana be ?  What is simran, sadhana, bhagti, sewa ?
Why follow Guru ?   

One can do anything in this world but that dissatisfaction will always remain. Even those who think they hear the anhad shabad are also not satisfied. 

So where is satisfaction ?  Alcohol ?  Tobacco ?  Drugs ?

Let me tell you a story,

There was a King who got every wise man in his territory to visit him. Like you/me, the King wanted the 'real' gyan. He asked every wise man to give him gyan but he had a condition. He said, I want you to give me the Gyan within a very short time limit - from the time I hold on to the reins of my horse till I mount the horse. 
Obviously, no one could do that. As the years passed, the King became even more dissatisfied with the rituals of daily living and his 'thirst' grew to an uncontrollable point. He ordered all his aides to seek high and low for someone who has real gyan and can live up to his time-limit conditions because he did not want to be bored with lectures.

One of his servants finally had the courage to tell the King about a man who had a hunch-back, who lives all by himself and didn't mix with anyone. As he described to the King, the King ordered him to bring the hunch-back man before him.

The King in total humility and desperation asked the hunch back to give him Gyan with the mentioned condition. The man said OK. When the horse was brought before the King, the man spoke up - he told the King, you laid the condition to get the gyan similarly in all fairness, I have a condition as well. The King asked what is the condition ? He said, give your MIND to me. The King said OK.

So both were ready for the final show to begin. The King then held the reins of the horse and put one foot on the saddle. The hunch back voiced out again, he said - "Your Majesty, you cannot mount the horse, since you have given your MIND to me, you must obey me". In that very instance, the King was shocked but at the same time received his real Gyan.

Now let's go back to the pictures:
You might have a dream about these pictures tonight. Sweet dreams.


The Emperor Akbar paying homeage to Guru Amar Das Ji 









The Emperor Akbar paying homeage to Guru Amar Das Ji at Goindwal.
Emperor Akbar had great reverence for the House of Guru Nanak. He honoured saints of all religions and apid his respects while touring his empire. In 1567 he visited Lahore where he met Guru Amar Das Ji. On being informed that no one could see the Guru without first partaking food in the Langur, Akbar who respected all religions welcomed the idea. the Emperor sat in a row on the floor with ordinary folk of humble origin and ate Langur. He was greatly impressed by this unique institution, where all people irrespective of caste, creed or religion could satisfy their hunger.


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## Astroboy (Aug 23, 2007)

*Guru Angad Dev Ji and Humayun
*










*While Guru Angad Dev Ji is absorbed in teaching children an enraged King Humayun has his hand on his sword.*
When Humayun the elder son of Babur was defeated by Sher Shah he came to seek the blessing of Guru Angad Dev Ji. At the time Guru Ji were absorbed in teaching the children to read. Feeling offended for not being immediately attended to he put his hand on the hilt of his sword. Guru Ji looked up calmly and said " It is unchivalrous for a king to flee from the battlefield and vent their wrath upon men of God". Hearing these words of wisdom Humayun realised his folly and begged forgiveness.


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## spnadmin (Aug 23, 2007)

Begum ji

A video clip with a discussion about the importance of the Dev Gurus recorded during a Jaap Sahib camp a few weeks ago. Hope you like it.

MrSikhNet

My paltry contribution -- this is a wonderful thread! If you want to move this link to a place where it doesn't interrupt the flow of your information, go ahead and move it.


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## Astroboy (Aug 23, 2007)

YouTube - Why I am a Sikh - Talk in Punjabi with Sadasat Simran Singh
YouTube - A Blind Girl gets back her eyesight at harmandir Sahib Amrit=
YouTube - Love of Gurbani Kirtan (In Punjabi)


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## TGill (Aug 23, 2007)

Begum ji, 

aad ji - I'm sure begum ji is not interrupted by paltry things like these. The information will always flow from begum ji... She always has something unique and beautiful to share !! 

Thanks begum ji


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## spnadmin (Aug 23, 2007)

Begum ji,

This may be the first of my images of Guru Nanaak ready for upload and discussion -- as you invited me to do. 

My favorites are in the Persian style. It is a picture of Guru Nanaak and Martana, and the most impressive thing about this image is the way they are completely rapt in discussion, focused and interested in the conversation.


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## TGill (Aug 24, 2007)

Baba nanak and Mardana in concersation with some Raja


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## TGill (Aug 24, 2007)




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## Archived_member2 (Aug 24, 2007)

That is interesting, Baba Nanak with a Tilak.


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## TGill (Aug 24, 2007)

The painter must not have been an SGPC member !!:}{}{}:


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## TGill (Aug 24, 2007)

Baba Nanak....  from Introduction to Sikhism

Dear Friends, my intention is not to hurt anyone's feelings... 


Bhul chuk maaf karna....

_Masjid Dha Day, Mandir Dha Day_
_Dha Day Jo Kujh Disda_
_Par Kissay Da Dil Na Dhawee(n)_
_Rub Dilaa(n) Wich Wasda_


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 24, 2007)

i have a question

i might sound heretical

"were all Gurus mortals?"


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## spnadmin (Aug 24, 2007)

TGill, the pictures of Nanaak are just so wonderful -- Nanaak is always paying attention, really engaged in the people around him, firm in his stance but so receptive to everyone. 

And the compositions, and colors, and style of painting -- just too beautiful!

P/S -- Perhaps in the early days of Sikhi there were many different options for dress and personal adornment. A more free-flowing sense of self and place.


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## TGill (Aug 24, 2007)

Dear Amar sanghera ji

My opinion: The Gurus that we know were mortals. But the one who were immortals we don't know them !!


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 24, 2007)

thank you


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Elder son of Baba nanak....


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Sorry this one is better I think


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

It is a historical fact that all the Gurus loved and respected Baba Siri Chand ji. Guru Amar Das ji gave his eldest son, Baba Mohan ji to serve Baba Siri Chand ji. Guru Hargobind Sahib offered his son, Baba Gurditta, the father of Guru Harkrishan ji (7th Guru) to be Baba Siri Chand ji's devotee and successor. Baba Siri Chand ji gave the name "Amritsar" that is used today to the city that had been called Ramdaspur. And the place where Guru Arjan Dev ji waited daily for his meetings with Baba Siri Chand ji and his resting place are still marked by the historical sites of Thamb Sahib and Manji Sahib at the village of Barath. Babaji also gave water from his baoli (spring) for the Sarovar (sacred pool) at Tarn Taran.


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

This is a 200 year old picture found in Udasin's dera...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 25, 2007)

TGill ji

i  disagree with Udasi thought being part of sikhism


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Mee too amar ji... I'm just showing their picture, plus some historical facts...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 25, 2007)

thanks

my concern was this

many inquistive minds come to this forum to learn about sikhism

by posting these pictures, it gives a message that they are a part of sikh gurus

i request you might like to start another thread


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Baba Nanak.
Fresco on the walls of Baba Atal Sahib, Amritsar.


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Guru Ram Das ji and Baba Sri Chand ji...


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

They are part of Sikh Gurus, aren't they ? These inquisitive minds should know the complete truth, why only half....

Fine, will not post such pictures now... 

Guru Rakha


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 25, 2007)

udasi thought goes against a lot contained in SGGS

esp

celibacy
rituals
 etc


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Yes Amar ji,

I just tried to show how painters have painter Baba Nanak and Baba Nanak's son and how he was revered by the Gurus thats it.... Nothing more nothing less...

But then question arose, baba sri chand were baba nanak's son, why would Guru let his own son become an Udasi (celibate etc.)...
I don't think that is what happened. I think Baba SriChand was so engrossed in akal's bliss that for him anything else didn't matter, not even becoming a garihsth.... who knows the reality... Sorry, I'm just writing my mind aloud !!


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Guru Hargobind ji... source - exoticindiaart.com


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## TGill (Aug 25, 2007)

Physical description of Guru Gobind singh as given by Sri Singh
http://www.mrsikhnet.com/mp3player/...scribing guru gobind singh - july 14 1981.mp3

You can download it...


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## drkhalsa (Aug 25, 2007)

> Physical description of Guru Gobind singh as given by Sri Singh
> http://www.mrsikhnet.com/mp3player/e...014%201981.mp3
> 
> You can download it...



Have listened to it some time back when it was posted on mrsikhnet 

Its kind of fairu tale kind of bed time story for KIDS   it like listening to it 

Yogi ji stresed the point that Guru Gobind Singh ji was stauch Vegetarian just like Yogi ji himself which really makes it even more fary tail


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## TGill (Aug 26, 2007)




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## pk70 (Sep 1, 2008)

* It is just  amazing to hear about very personal description of Guru Gobind Singh from a person who, being a Sikh, even doest know/remember Bhai Nand Lal's name. He describes height of Guru " 5.4.12"
Who measured Guru ji in a so pricise way? I thought when people get spiritual, learn more about the enlightened ones, they stop gossipping, I was wrong.*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 30, 2010)

Ref. ..Who are Gurus?
To understand  who are Gurus we will first have to understand the intrinsic meaning of the word GURU. There is only ONE GUROO and that is SHABADu as per Gurbaani.
The word GURU is the reference for GUROO JOTi{The wave of the word GUROO}.
The word GURU is SINGULAR for the reference of this wave and its PLURAL is the word GUR.
It is this GUROO JOTi that refered itself as NANAKu and or NANAK.Since it is the NANAKu/ NANAK JOTi that enlightened other  to be refered as GURU.
So our GURUS were NANAKu/NANAK JOTi and the same is enlightened in our present SGGS Ji.That is how we can refer SGGS Ji as our LIVING GURU
Prakash.s.bagga


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## sunmukh (Sep 30, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

"Who are the Gurus?"

I think everyone will give slightly different answer. 

From my own point of view there were 10 Sikh human Gurus, starting from Guru Nanak Dev ji, and these have been succeeded by SGGS ji. There is only one Guru now. 

As for references to "Guru" in SGGS ji, I believe that overwhelmimg majority of these do not refer to any one of the 6 Gurus that contributed to SGGS ji. 
They refer to the Guru within, or the Sat Guru, the seed implanted by God in each and every person. This Guru can show the right path, if one opens one's mind and listens with intent. This is God consciousness, but not knowledge of God, which no-one has.  All one has to do is then follow this inbuilt innate Hukam of God. This Guru judges instantly whether one is doing right or wong, is acting truthfully or untruthfully. When one is running against one's conscience, one can get very uncomfortable, but when one does what one believes to be right, then there is great contentment.  This does not mean the action will be "right" from others point of view, as the judgements will depend on where one was born, and how one was raised (God's Hukam again)  
God will ultimately judge who was right and who was wrong, and as we humans have no say, it is best not to struggle too much either,  trying to get it right, as only God knows what is actually right. 
karmee aapo aapnee kay nayrhai kay door

Sat Sri Akal


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## Seeker9 (Sep 30, 2010)

S|kH said:


> The Gurus were human beings that became one with God.
> 
> 
> They were not sent by God -- It took 30 years before Guru Nanak had completely began to change the region...there was no "baby Nanak" similar to Baby Jesus's birth. Guru Nanaks birth was not prophecized.
> ...



This quote is from page 1 of this thread

Does everyone agree with this?

Following on from this, what would be the definition of Bhagat?

This is a genuine question and I would appreciate a genuine answer

Thanks
:blueturban:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 1, 2010)

SEEKER9 Ji;
Pl accept my Divine Greetings
Actually the word GURU is the reference for the GUROO JOTi.
In Gurbaani we would find that there is no concept that of meeting with GOD by any of person thru whom Gurbaani was revealed.No where in Gurbaani NANAK as person claimed as GURU.
It is this GUROO JOTi which is OMNIPOTENT{HARi}and OMNIPRESENT{RAM}.NANAK as person is DAS of HARi only.Similar is the situation with BHAGATS .
If we deeply understand Gurbaani We would come to know that this GUROO JOTi assumed the nameof NANAK and because of this effect others GURUs are referred as NANAK-2,NANAK-3 like that SGGSji is also NANAK JOTi a living GURU.
For more clarification on this you may pl consider a Quote from SGGS ji  refer pp490-491where it is 
                   NANAK GUR TE GURU HOEAA VEKHO TIS KI RAJAAI
                   EHU KARAN KARTA KARE JOTI JOTi SAMAAI           pp490-491SGGS Ji
Prakash.s.baggaswordfight


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 1, 2010)

JUSTRANDEEPSINGH Ji
WAHiGUROO Ji KA Khalsa 
WAHiGUROO Li Ki Fateh
Out ten GURUS are part of GUROO JOTi Only.
There is no concept of GURU  either being GOD or meeting GOD in Sikh Philosophy.Because there is no concept of GURU and GOD as two separate entities in Sikhism.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Seeker9 (Oct 1, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is this GUROO JOTi which is OMNIPOTENT{HARi}and OMNIPRESENT{RAM}.NANAK as person is DAS of HARi only.Similar is the situation with BHAGATS .
> Prakash.s.baggaswordfight


Dear Prakash Bagga Ji

Many thanks for this

Grateful if you could tell me more about the differences between Gurus and Bhagats. I am asking because there are people who sometimes get very heated about this distinction and I don't understand why

If both Gurus and Bhagats managed to return to the Source, any distinction would be irrelevant wouldn't it?

Thanks


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## Seeker9 (Oct 1, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> JUSTRANDEEPSINGH Ji
> WAHiGUROO Ji KA Khalsa
> WAHiGUROO Li Ki Fateh
> Out ten GURUS are part of GUROO JOTi Only.
> ...



Dear Prakash Ji

Thanks for this

How did this Guru Joti transfer when there is successorship and a new Guru continued the path?

Did 10th Guru transfer Guru Joti to SGGSJ

I hope I am not offending anyone by asking these questions.....I don't know the answers so that is why I am asking

Thanks again
rangesingh:


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## spnadmin (Oct 1, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Dear Prakash Ji
> 
> 
> Did 10th Guru transfer Guru Joti to Sri Guru Granth SahibJ
> ...



In my humble opinion, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is the written from of the shabad Guru. The jyote is and was always in the shabad and the shabad was always the Guru_ aad such jugaad such hai bi such ._It was not then a matter of transferring the jyote to Guru Granth Sahib when Guru Gobind Singh was in the final hours of his earthly life. The jyote was always there, and he was affirming to the panth that the shabad was, is, and would continue as Guru when he gave the hukam "Sabh sikhaan ko hukam hai Guru manyeo granth."


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 2, 2010)

SEEKER9Ji,
Placcept my Divine Greetings,
I am equally thakful to you for your positive interaction in the subject of discussion.
Regarding your first question  my views are as under
GUROOJOTi is the same in BHAGATS as well as in GURUS.That is why in Gurbaani 
our GURUS recognised their status as equivalent to themselves.
The distinction is probably related to the fact that in their respective periods BHAGATS were refered like that so the same reference seems to have been maintained.

Regarding your second question refering to the transfer of GUROO JOTi from one to another I am incapable to present my views as this process is unique and marvellous in
Sikh Philosophy.It is sfficient to understand that this did happen.
For Some little understanding you may pl consider the process of Electric Power being transferred from the generating point to different Transformers.This mechanism may be of some guidance.
With kind regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 2, 2010)

SHABADUGUROO and SHABADUGUROO JOTi is a unique concept which GURUNANAK Ji disclosed to the world.This concept is the core concept of Gurbaani.This concept actually 
places Gurbaani in distinguished  position  compared to others.
We all must understand the significance of this concept in ones life.This concept must be promoted as the UNIVERSAL CONCEPT OF SPRITUALITY.This concept is a unique GIFT      of our GURUs to the whole of MANKIND.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Seeker9 (Oct 2, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SEEKER9Ji,.
> Regarding your first question  my views are as under
> GUROOJOTi is the same in BHAGATS as well as in GURUS.That is why in Gurbaani
> our GURUS recognised their status as equivalent to themselves.
> ...



Dear Prakash Ji
Thanks for this
It is a shame more people don't recognise this 
So the Gurus then would have been spiritual leaders of the path but they recognised the acheivements of the Bhagats?


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## findingmyway (Oct 7, 2010)

In my mind the difference in the bhagats and the Gurus is that they followed different paths. All the Gurus' shabads are in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji but the Guru's did not include all the shabads sung/written by the bhagats-only those inline with Sikh philosphy. They were enlightened souls and this was recognised but they also had additional ideas which we do not learn from. This is the biggest difference that I can see between the Gurus and Bhagats.
Jasleen


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2010)

FINDINDMYWAY Ji
Placcept my Divine Greetings

First we must be clear that the BAANI in SGGS Ji is neither of Any GURU in person or any BHAGAT.The  Source of the whole Gurbaani is SHABADUGUROO Only.If we look at this aspect of Gurbaani we would find no difference in GURUS  and BHAGATs as well.
Our GURS are reffered GURU because of GUROO JOTi which itself is reffered as NANAKU/NANAK.
It is not So in case of BHAGATS.
We must rather try to differetiate the intrinsic meanings of the words GUROO/GURU and GUR to properly understand the correct message of Gurbaani.
It is surprising to notice that we do not make any difference in meanings of the words GUROO/GURU and GUR.These three words are gramatically different so there should be three different meanings of the words.
Unless we know the above concept of Gurbaani How can understand what our  GURUS are conveying to us.
Shri GURU ARJAN DEV Ji presented the Gurbaani with complete direction of grammer of the words so that we are not astrayed in other meanings.
How do we axccept this?
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Oct 7, 2010)

prakash.s.baggu ji

Some of us, and I am one, still do not accept that by shaving a distinction between the terms guroo/guru/gur one can get a deeper understanding of ShabadGuru. 

ShabadGuru is greater than any one Guru, but all of our Gurus were of and in the Shabad Guru. Unity and not duality is IMHO the realization of what the shabads gently move us toward.

And in spite of all of that, the bani were written down by  someone.  In fact 6 of our Gurus did that. So it is nothing more than a term of art to say that  a shabad in Mehla 5 is by Guru Arjan Dev. Of course it is *by Guru Arjan Dev* because he penned it for posterity. 

At the same time only one ShabadGuru inspired and flowed through the pen of the 6. 

How is the Guru/Guroo/Gur line of argument not  distinction without a difference? 

If you think my posts are unworthy of a reply, and decide to ignore them, I will not be offended. Thank you


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2010)

Spnadmin
Dear AMAN SINGH Ji,
Pl accept my divine Greetings,
I thankyou very much for your candid response to my post.I am not at all offended and I appreciate your concern.
In fact so far we have not given any thought that there is a definite pattern of Grammer in Gurbaani language.Acceptance comes next when we are primarily convinced about this fact of Gurbaani. This you will have to do yourself only.
If you sincerely go thru Gurbaani ypou will notice that it is always the word SHABADU  being reffered as GUROO not the word SHABAD.{SHABADU is a word in GUrmukhi script of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji with a single underline at the last letterD}Would you pl consider as to what is the role of this underline in particular word.?
In fact as I know we all have been trained not to pronounce this underline of any word
,I dont know why  but this has led to this confusion of understanding if we rewrite any such word of Gurbaani we dont take care of this underline and thus the word becomes defferent from what is there in Original Gurmukhi Script.
You will surprise to notice that nearly 70 percent of Gurbaani are related to this underline .If we obviate the underline of Gurbaani words then where is the understandingas a whole.
In the mean time I would be grateful to you if you can bring to my notice the word SHABAD GURU as you consider .f I am convinced then I am prepared to think the way you think.
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

*Please note that the word SHABAD GURU was first introduced by you prakash.s.bagga ji in reply to forum leader findingmyway ji as follows 



			First we must be clear that the BAANI in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is neither of Any GURU in person or any BHAGAT.The Source of the whole Gurbaani is SHABADUGUROO Only.If we look at this aspect of Gurbaani we would find no difference in GURUS and BHAGATs as well.
Our GURS are reffered GURU because of GUROO JOTi which itself is reffered as NANAKU/NANAK.
It is not So in case of BHAGATS.
		
Click to expand...

 edited by spnadmin*


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## findingmyway (Oct 7, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Spnadmin
> Dear AMAN SINGH Ji,
> Pl accept my divine Greetings,
> I thankyou very much for your candid response to my post.I am not at all offended and I appreciate your concern.
> ...



And what does this underline mean in your opinion. How do you think Shabadu is different from Shabad? Please share your understanding....


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 7, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Spnadmin
> Dear AMAN SINGH Ji,
> Pl accept my divine Greetings,
> I thankyou very much for your candid response to my post.I am not at all offended and I appreciate your concern.
> ...



Prakash Singh Bagga ji,

Guru Fateh.

Despite  Findingway ji's and mine several requests to you to interpret the Shabad that  Namjap ji posted on your request using your knowledge of grammar in Gurbani, you have failed  to do that for the reasons only known to you.

One wonders why this reluctance! If  you do not share your knowledge through Gurbani so we all can understand it better, then what you claim becomes redundant and stops making sense in a Gurmat manner as you refuse to use your Gurmat wisdom to explain the Shabads.

I would urge you to do that and share your Gurmat knowledge with us, so that we can become better Sikhs.

I hope you heed to my request.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 8, 2010)

FINDINGMYWAYS Ji,
Pl accept divine Greetings,

There is a difference in SINGLE COMPARTMENT and TRAIN.Can ASINGLE COMPARTMENT be reffered as TRAIN .The same is the difference in SHABADU and SHABAD,
For more clarification it would be worthwhile for you to go thru any good book on
Gurbaani Grammer.
With best wishes
Prakash.s.bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 8, 2010)

TEJWANT SINGH JI,
Pl accept my Divine Greetings,
I am thankful to your suggestion of interpretation of Gurbaani GUrmati way.If accepting the interpretation without reasoning is the Gurmati way then I am not a part of this 
way of understanding.
I am only interested in Gurbaani interpretation as per Grammer of Gurbaani words and if you feel grammer is not important in understanding of Gurbaani I can only say SORRY
Any one has full right to accept reject the views.There can be no compulsion.I am not a religious PREACHER or TEACHER.My concern was only to bring certain aspects of Gurbaani understanding based on Grammer only.
Regarding interpratation of the SHABAD posted by NAMJAP ji I have posted a message in your name nearly 5-6 days back in fact I was looking forward to your initial views but till date I didnt get.
If We all think that Gurbaani should not be understood making use of Grammer then why alone myself should work on it'In future I shall interact only on postings of general interest where there is no grammer involved because GRAMMER IS NOT IMPOTANT.
Withbest wishes and regards
Prakash.s.bagga


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## sunmukh (Oct 8, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam



prakash.s.bagga said:


> SEEKER9 Ji;
> Pl accept my Divine Greetings
> Actually the word GURU is the reference for the GUROO JOTi.
> In Gurbaani we would find that there is no concept that of meeting with GOD by any of person thru whom Gurbaani was revealed.No where in Gurbaani NANAK as person claimed as GURU.
> ...


 
Sat Sri Akal

Prakash ji, I don't claim to have any deep or reliable understanding of  Gurbani, but the manner in which you have written this post suggests within the first part that you believe "Guroo Joti" to be inanimate, whilst "Nanak" was a person, but then within the second part, "Guroo Joti" is implied by you to assume the penname "Nanak" (ie "Guru Joti" is now animate, whilst "Nanak" is now inanimate) 

Am I missing something, or are you switching roles ad-hoc ? 




> JUSTRANDEEPSINGH Ji
> WAHiGUROO Ji KA Khalsa
> WAHiGUROO Li Ki Fateh
> Out ten GURUS are part of GUROO JOTi Only.
> ...


 
My limited personal understanding of the lines you quote from p490/491 and from the preceding Shabad, and from rest of SGGS ji, is quite different from yours.  However I may be mistaken, as your understanding of what "Guroo Joti", "Guru" and "God" may make a huge difference. You also have something in mind with regards to distinguishing between terms like "Gur" "Guru" "Shabd" and "Shabdu".  I have been reading your posts on this thread, but haven't worked out what you understand by each of these terms.  If you could just define each of these separately, or perhaps state which ones you view to be commutative, then this will help me at least, and maybe others as well, to understand what you are suggesting.  

Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 8, 2010)

DEAR SUNKUKH Ji;
Pl accept my divine greetings ,
You have very right question to ask.Thanks for this.I think it would be worthwhile for you to have some preliminary knowledge of Gurbaani grammer.For this you may refer some good books   in the subject.
From your very first address as EK ONKAAR SAT NAAM it is clear you are required to be familiar with Gurbaani words.If you go thru Gurmukhi version of SGGS ji you will find tha the word SATNAAM is actually SATiNAAMU.
Once you are confirmed about this then I may be in a position to clarify your point
accordingly.
I look forward to your response to my request
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

I make the same suggestion for JUSTRANDEEP Ji.
I hope you will appreciate my point of view in this regard.


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## sunmukh (Oct 8, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> DEAR SUNKUKH Ji;
> Pl accept my divine greetings ,
> You have very right question to ask.Thanks for this.I think it would be worthwhile for you to have some preliminary knowledge of Gurbaani grammer.For this you may refer some good books in the subject.
> From your very first address as EK ONKAAR SAT NAAM it is clear you are required to be familiar with Gurbaani words.If you go thru Gurmukhi version of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji you will find tha the word SATNAAM is actually SATiNAAMU.
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naamu

Prakash ji, you are quite right about the "u" in Sat Naamu.  I have also thought about this previously, but decided it made no difference to what I understood from Sikh ideology.  It is the overall ideology or philosophy, that I am interested in, and not technical points, or precise meanings of single words or lines.  I have selected this introduction to posts, and most readers will understand pretty well what is meant by the phrase. 

However to respond to your point, I think the "u" in Sat Naamu, is simply a very subtle soft "uh"  --- it is possessive form of the verb "to be".  This implies "OnKaar" *is*  "Truth", the "Naam" referred to by peers and predecessors of Guru Nanak Dev ji, and hence the "Naam" referred to in the remainder of SGGS ji.   Naam is an ancient term, but Guru Nanak Dev ji is emphasising by use of the "u" that the only "Naam" is Truth, and nothing else. There is nobody who can give "naam" and people do not have to receive "naam". All people have to do is understand Truth is OnKaar, and Truth is a complete representation of that same "naam" of vedic faiths. Hence we can interpret  "Ek OnKaar Sat Naamu" as " One Creator Lord; Truth is the embodiment of that One Creator Lord"

This brings us to what you see in different versions of root words. Grammar will make subtle differences, but unless you wish to undertake a supreme scholarly project, which of course you are most entitled to do, you will have to accept standard interpretations until they disturb you.  Some differences may even be down to evolution of words, and mis-spellings. Language changes and all are prone to error save for God.

The essence of Gurbani comes through without deep investigations.  Guru ji occasionally mocks those who made very intense studies and debated endlessly over technical issues, but lost the main message whilst entrapped in such studies. Nobody knows God but God Himself. This is a loud statement in Gurbani. One can search forever and debate forever but no-one will find a complete solution or full representation to the nature of God. One has to rely on faith. 

When you have established a clear vision of what you can take from Sikhi, then that will be enough to follow that path. You must have faith in it. Going down the path is far more important than knowing the exact nature of the path. It could be  made of concrete, tarmac, grass or mud, but if one does not set foot on it because one wants to know what one treads on, then there will be no possibility of reaching any destination. 

As for my faith, surrendering oneself to leadership kindly provided by God in the form of the Sat Guru He generously implants in each and every sentient being, will eventually take one to God. One requires faith in the path that God sets for all. His Hukam that one accepts. He has set the path, so it cannot be false. If not we can spend time debating, or turning to countless babas or prophets whilst we dither over what to accept. Whilst we dither the opportunity to grasp this chance to escape from the cycle of reincarnation dwindles away. There is only Truth, no miraculous fast-track routes, and no unique path. 

I get this advice from Guru ji from the shabd you mention on P490:

One has to accept what God gives, and go wherever He leads us by virtue of delegation of that role to Sat Guru (who resides in the temple of one's mind), if we want peace of mind here and now. If we surrender to that Guru then one loses one's own identity (rooted in ego), and hence merges with that Sat Guru. We are liberated from our own delusions and attachments, and see things as they really are. This is Truth.  

Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 8, 2010)

DEAR SUNKUKH Ji,
Pl accept my divine Greetings,
I thak you for appreciating the use of  underline in the Gurbaani Word NAAMu.I fully agree to your explanations .I am sure you may get more clarifications to the significance of such words This shall be done by SATiGURU ji only .
You have mentioned regarding change of language with time.Is this aspect applicable to GURBAANI which we say as JUO JUG ATAL BAANI.Who gives us the right to alter the form of Gurbaani words? Is this our GURMATi which allows us ?.These questions need to be answered before we can accept the change.
In the mean time I would be grateful to you if you can tell me where do I get in Guebaani that ONKAAR is as EK ONKAAR.I am eqully interested and open to accept if
there is something wrong with my own thinking.I am fully prepared to change if satisfiedas per Gurbaani Vichar only.
You say ONKAAR is GOD.But if I ask my GURU I dont get the answer  so.I should accept what you say or accept what GURU is telling?
I look forward to your response in the subject
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2010)

Ref:Gurbaani Language

THE LANGUAGE OF GURBAANI IS SACRO-SANCT.IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERY GURSIKH TO SEE THAT THE ORIGINAL SCRIPT IS MAINTAINED IF TRANSLATED TO ANY OTHER LANGUAGE>ANY VARIATION IN THE FORM OF GURBAANI WORDS WOULD LEAD TO CONFUSIONS ONLY.
THIS WOULD BE ONE OF THE GREATEST SERVICE TO OUR GURUS.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sunmukh (Oct 9, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Ref:Gurbaani Language
> 
> THE LANGUAGE OF GURBAANI IS SACRO-SANCT.IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERY GURSIKH TO SEE THAT THE ORIGINAL SCRIPT IS MAINTAINED IF TRANSLATED TO ANY OTHER LANGUAGE>ANY VARIATION IN THE FORM OF GURBAANI WORDS WOULD LEAD TO CONFUSIONS ONLY.
> THIS WOULD BE ONE OF THE GREATEST SERVICE TO OUR GURUS.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam/u

Prakash ji, the original script cannot be maintained in langauges that use alternative scripts. I can think of only Punjabi that uses the Gurmukhi script, so any translation requires abandonment of the script. Dissemination of the teachings of SGGS ji in as many languages as possible, even if some small loss is made in meaning, would be a good service. SGGS ji gives very useful and eternally true advice. 

Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2010)

As a point of information only.

To maintain the Gurmukhi script in its original form would require that all the search engines versions of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, gutkas, and similar texts, such as Mahan Kosh and Guru Granth Darpan,  be scrapped. Or they would have to be republished - a costly venture. The purest form of Gurmukhi is the _larevaar _script, by which all the words are continuous. The use of _larevaar_ was abandoned even by SGPC sometime in the 1960's in favor of what we now read, the _pad ched _script, where words are given separately. The point of the change was to make the Shabad easier to read, at that time for those Punjabis who had been schooled in the _pad ched_ using modern print materials. That change from larevaar to pad ched was also not without controversy. Today we read pad ched I assume because making the shabad of the gurus more accessible was an important thing to do. 

The pic attached to this comment shows the same vaar in pad ched and larevaar.


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## sunmukh (Oct 9, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> DEAR SUNKUKH Ji,
> Pl accept my divine Greetings,
> I thak you for appreciating the use of underline in the Gurbaani Word NAAMu.I fully agree to your explanations .I am sure you may get more clarifications to the significance of such words This shall be done by SATiGURU ji only .
> You have mentioned regarding change of language with time.Is this aspect applicable to GURBAANI which we say as JUO JUG ATAL BAANI.Who gives us the right to alter the form of Gurbaani words? Is this our GURMATi which allows us ?.These questions need to be answered before we can accept the change.
> ...


 


prakash.s.bagga said:


> DEAR SUNKUKH Ji,
> Pl accept my divine Greetings,
> I thak you for appreciating the use of underline in the Gurbaani Word NAAMu.I fully agree to your explanations .I am sure you may get more clarifications to the significance of such words This shall be done by SATiGURU ji only .
> You have mentioned regarding change of language with time.Is this aspect applicable to GURBAANI which we say as JUO JUG ATAL BAANI.Who gives us the right to alter the form of Gurbaani words? Is this our GURMATi which allows us ?.These questions need to be answered before we can accept the change.
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam/u

Prakash ji, I was hoping you would be providing your understanding of words like Gur; Guroo; Shabd; Shabdu instead of leaving me to learn from SatiGuru ji only. 

You also didn't pick up on use of sihari before tatt ha in "Sati" when you picked up on missing aunkar under mamma in Sat Naam. 
The same sihari appears in "SatGuru". This is translated as "True Guru", whereas when it comes to Sat Naam, this is commonly translated as "The Name is Truth" So in one form it is translated as True, and in another as Truth. At same time "sach" is also translated as "true", and Sati is only pronounced as Sat instead of Sati. The pronunciation is actually same as for the number seven (Satt) which uses an adhak and no sihari at all. 


Never mind though. As long as we understand the intention the detail is immaterial. 

This web-site may be of interest to you whilst pursuing grammar, language and script issues:

http://www.sikhspirit.com/khalsa/punjabi1.htm


As for your point regarding "Ek-OnKaar":

One doesn't have to read in "God" if one doesn't wish to. This is the duality creeping in, setting God apart. When one reads this phrase, one could understand "Ek-Onkaar" as "There is only one complete creation in which the creator pervades throughout". Guru Nanak Dev ji doesn't describe a separate God who lives well away from individuals. Instead Gurbani states He is both very near, and far. One who wishes to realise "God" will need to break down the duality in one's mind, and identify with the ever resident Lord. One has to accept one's mool (origins), instead of living in a separate delusory state created by ego 





> jaisaa ghar baahar so taisaa.​​Just as He is within the home of the self, so is He beyond.​


(p221)​




> saglee jot jaataa too so-ee mili-aa bhaa-ay subhaa-ay.​​Your Light is in everyone; through it, You are known. Through love, You are easily met.​


(p765)​

"God resides in His Creation" and "His creation resides in Him". 




> jaat meh jot jot meh jaataa akal kalaa bharpoor rahi-aa.​​Your Light is in Your creatures, and Your creatures are in Your Light; Your almighty power is pervading everywhere.​


( p469)​


Prakash ji wrote:



> You say ONKAAR is GOD.But if I ask my GURU I dont get the answer so.I should accept what you say or accept what GURU is telling?


 
Veer Prakash ji, you are questioning whether you should accept my advice, or Guru ji's advice. Ji, this is a forum for discussion. You will read many different versions because people understand matters differently. If not there would be little to discuss. Guru Ji's advice is there plain and simple, in ink, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.Any advice which you may see as advice from me, is not offered as a warranted reinterpretation of what was on Guru Sahibans mind when Bani was written. I was not there. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has given me an understanding which I am sharing wth you. You can go directly to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and this is the best option for you. It is the same Guru Ji who provides advice to me. It seems quite straightforward to me, but then I am not worrying about grammar issues, or single lines. I don't really care if there is an aunkar or not, but I can see you are concerned. The translations are very good and provide a wealth of invaluable advice. Over the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, any discrepancies that happen to be spotted between translations and the original become insignificant, to the point that they can be ignored and forgotten. It is the message that counts, and it is the message that changes thinking in the mind, rather than individual words. 




> jin kahi-aa tin kahan vakhaani-aa.​​One who speaks, merely describes speech.
> jin boojhi-aa tin sahj pachhaani-aa.
> But one who understands, intuitively realizes​


(P221)​



However if you are finding difficulty in accepting translations, then you can choose to read other's interpretations, as together they may help you to understand better, and so form an intuitive understanding. Not all people spend their time trying to mislead others. I frequently read posts suggesting people are out to deliberately misguide others. To me this suggests there is some paranoia within some members of Sikh forums. My own personal opinion is that most people do not have the time or patience to engage in this sort of activity. There may be some manic people about but most people do try to help others when possible. They may make mistakes, but who doesn't? Whether you accept what someone else writes is entirely your choice, and it your right to reject any advice as well. 

The whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji provides wonderful advice, but for the purpose of this thread, running into discussion of what are Gurus, grammar, words, and use of "God" in Ek OnKaar, I would urge you to read the shabd beginning p220 ending middle of p228, entitled:

RAAG GAUREE, ASHTAPADEES, FIRST MEHL: GAUREE GWAARAYREE

There is only one creation and one God, and you are part of it; when you realise this, all your doubts and questions about grammar, gurus and God will disappear, as will notions about great respect and disrepect. All the differences will become immaterial, and you will not be interested in the correctness of answers. Problems of all people who follow organised religions but still look for ever deeper meanings in scriptures, are created by the mind, as the mind seeks to set itself apart from the truth. Sikhi is very simple, but Sikhi is as much prone to misinterpretation as any other religion, by people who are not interested in learning from Sikhi, but are instead attached to Sikhism, as their form of identifier. They will then seek parts they can use to create division. This statement is not intended to malign or condemn you, as it is a natural process of the mind caught in duality, whilst ego presides. What one must do is destroy ego, and you will then view yourself as neither Hindu, Mussalman or Sikh. You will only be a GurSikh, with no attachment to any religious grouping, but great love and compassion for all. (I am not suggesting you need to give up 5ks, etc, but am saying your mind will not be attached to your Sikh identity, to the point that you judge others or yourself by reference to that identity) 

Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2010)

Dear SUNKUKH Ji
Pl accept my divine greetings,
I am greatly diappointed at your views on Gurbaani language.I didnt expect like that from a person of your calibre .
I am extremely sorry Dear Sunmukh Ji
With best Wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2010)

Spnadmin
Dear Aman Singh Ji
Pl accept my Divine Greetings,
I really appreciate presenting some authentic comparison of LARIVAAR and PADCHED  Script of SggS ji.
You will yourself notice that LAREWAAR BAANI did have proper gramatical indications and the same have been retained in PAD CHED Script.
In fact we should be greatly thankful to the person who undertook the whole script in PADCHED and made Gurbaani easily understandable by us.This person must have great and perfect Knowledge of Gurbaani grammer.
You will surmise to know ,had the grammer indications not been provided it would have 
been difficult task to undertake PADCHED script,
Thanks for your valuable information
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Spnadmin
> Dear Aman Singh Ji
> Pl accept my Divine Greetings,
> I really appreciate presenting some authentic comparison of LARIVAAR and PADCHED  Script of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
> ...



Prakash S. Bagga ji

Thanks for your reply. It is and has always been clear to me that the diacritical marks, including the aunkar, are included in the Larevaar script. That was not why I brought the matter of Larevaar up.  The question of "original script" came up before that post. You raised the issue that without proper grammar, to include the aunkar, we have strayed from Guru's original language.

However, the importance of aunkar was and always has been in this thread in reference to pad ched. I am trying to take things a step further. If we are concerned about having the original version of script, as you seem to be, then a discussion of the aunkar to indicate the plural becomes superfluous. If we want the "original" then Larevaar is what we must use.

What is important and what is not important?

Is it important to have the original script of the Gurus? 

If so, then the logical answer is not to worry over the aunkar. It is there as you yourself say in the Larevaar version. The aunkars are all right where they are supposed to be.

Maybe that is not the question. Next question.

Is it important to have the aunkar in the pad ched script? If yes is the answer, then what is the problem? The aunkar is present in most script versions of the shabad, including the unicode versions on the web. Why are we worried about it then?

Perhaps there is a different question that is really our concern.

Is it important to represent the sound of the aunkar in the "transliterations" of the Gurmukhi? As forum member Sunmukh ji has pointed out that is usually impossible one is using a non-Indic script.

But let me point out one thing. There are several transliteration systems on the web and some of them attempt to include the sound of the aunkar. These systems may not be used all the time.  Here is an example where the sound is included:     ISO 15919 transliteration: Ika ōaṅkāra sati nāmu karatā purakhu nirabha'u niravairu akāla mūrati ajūnī saibhaṃ gura prasādi

It is the ISO 15919 transliteration system. 

But my next question is this? Let us first stipulate that the Gurmukhi script does include all of the important diacriticals that help us grasp the GRAMMAR of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥


Now let's take a look at 3 different transliterations of the Mool Mantar

1.  Ika ōaṅkāra sati nāmu karatā purakhu nirabha'u niravairu akāla mūrati ajūnī saibhaṃ gura prasādi

2. Ik▫oaŉkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaŉ gur parsāḏ. 

3. ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||

Only number 3 does not include the transliteration of the aunkar. Number 3. From your perspective please explain how the translation of the _mool mantar _will be any different whether the aunkar is in the transliteration, or not? 

I propose that it changes nothing, because the transliteration is there only for the purposes of bridging the sounds of Punjabi to the sounds of English or other languages with a similar phonetic system. The transliteration has no bearing on grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.  The TRANSLATION, and its grammatical accuracy, is based on the Gurmukhi - where we can see the aunkar is always present. 

4. Is it important to PRONOUNCE the sound of aunkar in order to be correct in grammar and therefore correct in meaning? If the answer is yes, that is a matter of learning. For that there are many wonderful examples on the web of Shabads in video where the pronunciation is excellent. We can use them to learn. A transliteration does not have to spell out the aunkar for pronunciation to be correct. Again the Gurmukhi not the transliteration should be the reference point.

I also believe that a discussion of Guru as Guroo can only go so far before the message of Guru Nanak gets bogged down and can be missed completely. Every forum member knows that correct grammar is essential to understanding the meaning of any language. Punjabi in Gurmukhi script is not unique in this regard. Is there a good way to wrap it up?


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2010)

Forum members who have come late into this discussion. It is 12  pages long. The original topic was not about grammar, spelling and meaning. The thread needs to return to its original topic. This is not my first request Thank you.


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## sunmukh (Oct 9, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Dear SUNKUKH Ji
> Pl accept my divine greetings,
> I am greatly diappointed at your views on Gurbaani language.I didnt expect like that from a person of your calibre .
> I am extremely sorry Dear Sunmukh Ji
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Parkash ji, not everybody has same understanding of Gurbani or attaches equal priority to the same matters that others attach priority to. I have limited direct understanding of Gurbani, so am reliant upon translations. They are more than good enough for me, as what they communicate is very easily understood, and I trust the translators to be far more competent than I ever will be.   There is no need for you to express any sorrow. I wish you well in your learning and projects. 
Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2010)

sunmukh ji 

You are always gracious. Another important consideration regarding the aunkar


Regarding the grammatical possibilities of the aunkar. Forum mentor Gyani Jarnail Singh Arshi has noted on another thread that purakh(u) purakh + the aunkar indicates a proper noun given the context in which it is used. There is some very interesting material on this thread, which reflects the scholarship of Bhai Ranghir Singh and Professor Sant Singh Sahib.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26996-the-mool-mantar-sikhis-blueprint-roadmap.html



> The Purakh has an "aunkad" under the KH..meaning it is a PROPER NOUN..according to Gurbani Grammar.



So in addition to my previous remarks, 

I do not agree that  ਨਾਮੁ  naam(u) implies the plural of naam, or that ਪੁਰਖੁ  purakh(u) implies the plural of purakh. By the same logic ਗੁਰੁ   gur(u) need not imply the plural of guru.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 12, 2010)

SPNADMIN
DIVINE GREETINGS,
If we go thru SGGS ji carefully we would find that GURBAANI is ultimately SHABAD TARANG that is THE WAVES OF DIVINE WORDS. So far Gurbaani has not been interprated in terms of this concept of waves of Divine words.Since such interpretation is not available in any of the literature till date we find very hard to realise this aspect of Gurbaani interpretation.
We are living in the Age of Ultra Modern Science and we should also be prepared to understand the scientific outlook of Gurbaani for presentation to our coming generation.
Not only this our own perception of Gurbaani may be more near to Gurmati if we are able to grasp the concept of Gurbaani in terms of Waves of Divine words.
You can apply the principles of Modern Science to get the scientific interpretation of Gurbaani messages.You can really get to as to where Science and Sprituality meet together and how?
This may be the perception of many of us but thisrequires sharing to achieve more clarity in the concept. This is all what is expected
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Oct 12, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SPNADMIN
> DIVINE GREETINGS,
> If we go thru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji carefully we would find that GURBAANI is ultimately SHABAD TARANG that is THE WAVES OF DIVINE WORDS. So far Gurbaani has not been interprated in terms of this concept of waves of Divine words.Since such interpretation is not available in any of the literature till date we find very hard to realise this aspect of Gurbaani interpretation.
> We are living in the Age of Ultra Modern Science and we should also be prepared to understand the scientific outlook of Gurbaani for presentation to our coming generation.
> ...




Thank you for returning to the topic.


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

PERSONALLY i feel them to be ..

The most SIMPLE and HUMBLE yet STRONG and BRAVE..
No example anywhere in history of anyone so much humble and simple as GURUS and brave and courageous at the same time.

Emperors tried to took advantage of their DIVINE humbleness thinking its a weak attribute as is in most cases.Humbleness its often took as weakness in someone but shown by each guru at the same time how COURAGE and BRAVE they were.Sacrifices of gurus on the path unmatched for the sake of humanity in the history.So much selfless service can be seen right from the first guru to the last Guru .Last Guru sacrificed not even himself but all of his family for the sake of humanity.

Examples set up by them have inspired many till now to fight for the justice and humanity. 

A Royal attribute can also be seen in the lives of gurus if you notice lives of guru hargobind and guru gobind singh. Always in state of progress and never dying faith on almighty even when so much pains inflicted by others that is ROYAL attribute in itself.

From serving(Guru Nanak) Food to sadhus from all the money which was given by his father ,obedient as Bhai Lehna who obeyed each and every command by his GURU.Selfless services performed by Guru Amardas for  Guru Angad When Amardass ji himself were quite old.Standing for righteousness and justice (Guru Arjan Dev ) smilingly without even any frown or complaint when subjected to brutal torture.

Taking life right of first guru to last is a wonderful journey of divine humbleness turning into royal courage and unmatched divine strength to fight against all the odds not for themselves but for the humanity.

come on ,how perfectly they complete each other.
Many say it was the same jyot (soul) from Nanak To Gobind but for me its like completing each other so much perfectly cent by cent that there remains no difference between them.So In actions of GOBIND Singh you can see Guru Nanak Too which can only happen out of UNCONDITIONAL love of gurus for each other.So much selfless ,unconditional love of gurus for the earlier gurus that they have merged with each other.


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