# Is This The End?



## amarinder (Jun 17, 2014)

Jawarlal nehru once said," Most of the big Empires fell not because of external forces but because of the crumbling within."

Same is true for our religion. We fought the hardest battles but is on the verge to loose because of our own people. In my school's class, out of total 20 boys, 18 were sardars and tied turbans. After 12 class, most of them cut their hair. In my college, 40 boys were from punjab but only 5 were sikhs( an indication that sikh boys that study in good colleges). In my MBA class, all boys were from punjab only 2 are sikhs ,including me.

In normal punjab collges its the same scenario. Whats shocking is that now even the families either dont object to hair cuts or even tell their own sons to get them cut. Shockingly, some boys even cut their hair in mid twenties after taking care of them for 20+ years.

The point is 80 percent of the sikh boys have cut their hair in punjab. After getting married, their sons dont grow hair from birth. So, you can say that once a boy get his hair cut we have 90 oercent chance that one entire sikh generation is gone FOREVER. Imagine the case 70 percent sardars are gone within a period of 20 years.

People who cut their hair are the ones who dont do Nitnem. So, an indication is that 80 percent sikhs dont do nitnem. Again, there guys wont be teaching their children about significance of Japji aor Rehras.

We, the Sardars are on the brink of extinction.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 17, 2014)

amarinder said:


> Jawarlal nehru once said," Most of the big Empires fell not because of external forces but because of the crumbling within."
> 
> Same is true for our religion. We fought the hardest battles but is on the verge to loose because of our own people. In my school's class, out of total 20 boys, 18 were sardars and tied turbans. After 12 class, most of them cut their hair. In my college, 40 boys were from punjab but only 5 were sikhs( an indication that sikh boys that study in good colleges). In my MBA class, all boys were from punjab only 2 are sikhs ,including me.
> 
> ...



I am afraid it is much much worse even than that, out of those that continue to keep their hair, and continue to do Nitnem, most have little or no idea what is contained in Nitnem, but carry on doing it and keeping hair regardless, I am sure there are those that will view this situation like yourself, however, Sikhism is not limited to the Punjab, I am confident that in time to come, Punjab will end up with the lowest Sikh population in the world, why? because there is a revolution going on, gone or the days when you could stop a fully turbaned Sikh in the street and be guaranteed a 'Sikh', what you mostly get these days is someone that has been browbeaten into keeping hair and doing Nitnem, either by family or peer pressure, what we need are people that actually want to be Sikhs, people that hunger for it, that need it, rather than those that were born into it and take it for granted, Punjab will simply vanish under a multitude of deras and babas,  Sikhism in the Punjab will go full circle, with lots of traditions and rituals, the true meaning of Sikhism will be lost. 

However, outside of Punjab, Sikhism will flourish, will grow, will find its roots, will find the very principles that enabled it to flourish back in the day, Sikhism belongs to the world, not just Punjab.


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## amarinder (Jun 17, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I am afraid it is much much worse even than that, out of those that continue to keep their hair, and continue to do Nitnem, most have little or no idea what is contained in Nitnem, but carry on doing it and keeping hair regardless, I am sure there are those that will view this situation like yourself, however, Sikhism is not limited to the Punjab, I am confident that in time to come, Punjab will end up with the lowest Sikh population in the world, why? because there is a revolution going on, gone or the days when you could stop a fully turbaned Sikh in the street and be guaranteed a 'Sikh', what you mostly get these days is someone that has been browbeaten into keeping hair and doing Nitnem, either by family or peer pressure, what we need are people that actually want to be Sikhs, people that hunger for it, that need it, rather than those that were born into it and take it for granted, Punjab will simply vanish under a multitude of deras and babas,  Sikhism in the Punjab will go full circle, with lots of traditions and rituals, the true meaning of Sikhism will be lost.
> 
> However, outside of Punjab, Sikhism will flourish, will grow, will find its roots, will find the very principles that enabled it to flourish back in the day, Sikhism belongs to the world, not just Punjab.



I have never been outside punjab. One of the main reason that sikhism is punjab is going down that our society as a whole determines what an individual does in his or her life. While deciding career, we think engineer and doctor get most respect so we do that. We think people with big cars get more respect so we give away our lives to buy big cars and so on.

One of the major factors that has brought sikhism in punjab to its knees is the NRIs. When these guys left punjab, they had to shorn their hair to get jobs. And their sons born were also clean shaven.When NRI comes to punjab with  their families, show off their riches and lavish life style to Rural sikhs, we are in awe. And just want to copy them somehow. And the simplest way is to do shave off hair. And once a brother gets a hair cut, THEN the hair cutting trend spreads like AIDS between his cousins and friends.With  each boy telling his mom, see mom "bua ji de munde the v katte le vaal" and then the copy cat trend continues. 




harry haller said:


> because there is a revolution going on,  outside of Punjab, Sikhism will flourish, will grow, will find its roots, will find the very principles that enabled it to flourish back in the day, Sikhism belongs to the world, not just Punjab.


What kind of revolution? NRI's sons and daughters dont give a damn about sikh culture except dancing like pea{censored}s whenever somebody starts playing dhol. Does whites and other race people converting? I dont think so. If 10,000 sikh leave religion, only one converts. I dont think thats good mathematics


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## arshi (Jun 17, 2014)

Amarinder ji many thanks for your comments, which clearly reflect your concerns, love and affection for Sikhi. I have commented on some of the points you raised (very valid ones, may I add) below. Your comments are in green ink.
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<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">United Kingdom</st1:country-region> but this is changing. We have new blood flowing into the once arid crops of Sikhi – many Sikhs are doing sterling work towards revival by running schools in Gurdwaras and setting up schools independently of Gurdwaras. When we first arrived in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>, from <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region>, in the late sixties there were none, within or outside Gurdwaras – now we have hundreds. This is a fact for rejoicing and not getting despondent – true a lot of work still has to be done, and it’s the duty of every individual who believes in cares for Sikhi, in some manner or another, to contribute towards progress and redevelopment of the lost causes. I feel very distressed by comments which generate further despondency and panic amongst the nation. Of course we must be down to earth in recognising and determining our problems and not be unnecessarily over-optimistic. Active participation is essential for every well-meaning Sikh. Just sitting on our cushy chairs and preaching is not enough – we need field work. 

Only this morning I had a conversation with an old schoolmate and dear friend of mine who started knocking all and everyone i.e. how we are sliding on a slope towards disintegration and that this slope is getting steeper and steeper, how the Sikh channels are not doing much for Sikhi and the youth. True, I accepted, but what, I asked him is he doing towards correcting this imbalance – *pin-drop silence*. Most of us, I am afraid, are quite happy to criticise and denigrate but shy away when it comes to contribution in terms of money and effort.

_(an indication that sikh boys that study in good colleges). In my MBA class, all boys were from punjab only 2 are sikhs ,including me._

Again this is very true of academic activity in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. I have been involved with colleges and universities in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> for over 35 years. I have lectured to very large groups (100 – 150 students) and not a single sabat-surat Sikh to be seen in most lecture theatres but this is changing, new cohorts from the Sixth Form colleges should address this problem – I feel confident things will change for the better. 

_Whats shocking is that now even the families either dont object to hair cuts or even tell their own sons to get them cut. _

This is a sad fact – it appears people have become either conditioned to our place/fate in the world or have become far too ‘modernised’ to take their children back into the fold. It would appear the parents are more in need of instruction than the children.

The point is 80 percent of the sikh boys have cut their hair in punjab …. 70 percent sardars are gone within a period of 20 years.

Whilst I do not know the statistics but one does not need to know the exact figures to realise what you are saying is correct. We all know the impact of the 1984 tragic events and the subsequent dilution of Sikh values and morale and the drug problems – problems in abundance plus a very divided nation. This is why Sikhs look to the Sikh Diaspora in countries such as the <st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> and the states for solutions and as mentioned above a lot of good work (inter-mingled with issues and problems) is going on in these countries. We all hope our resolve will bring rewards in the near future.

_an indication is that 80 percent sikhs dont do nitnem …. wont be teaching their children about significance of Japji aor Rehras._

All the more reasons that we help institutions, set up by well-meaning Sikhs, to ‘spread the word’. It is true that there are people in some institutions with vested interests but we must not tarnish all with the same brush. There are some pretty genuine people with the interests of the Panth at heart. We must recognise these and support them in their efforts to revive Sikhi. There will always be some differences within us and so there should be for a healthy environment. However, whatever our view point we must be genuine in our approach – criticising for the sake of criticising for selfish goals is certainly the way forward. 

*We have problems and issues in abundance but as a sucker of chardi kala I look forward to greater unity in the Panth.*

The above comments are not aimed at anyone on the forum or otherwise – these are just an expression of my sentiments for the well-being and future of Sikhi. Heartfelt apologise if, inadvertently, I have hurt anyone’s feelings.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

*PS* when posting this I briefly saw your response to Harry ji’s post blaming NRIs – this is exactly the kind of thing we must avoid – well what about Bollywood, an Indian product – perhaps more on this later.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jun 17, 2014)

Hey don't forget Sikhi is spreading beyond Punjabis  

And vast majority of non-Puniabi who become Sikh, take it all the way (because we have been yearning for that personal spiritual connection) so for it's not a cultural or social thing... we are definitely in it to practice it as fully as possible.  That's why majority of westerners who become Sikh, also become Amritdhari... and vast majority tie dastars, even women... like myself and that includes all of us who never set foot in a 3HO ashram either! I found it through purely Punjabi sangat. 

There are actually MANY of us.... and maybe when some of the Punjabi Sikhs see us practicing it fully, they will start to come back when they realize what a gem Sikhi really is!


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## chazSingh (Jun 19, 2014)

Akasha said:


> Hey don't forget Sikhi is spreading beyond Punjabis
> 
> And vast majority of non-Puniabi who become Sikh, take it all the way (because we have been yearning for that personal spiritual connection) so for it's not a cultural or social thing... we are definitely in it to practice it as fully as possible.  That's why majority of westerners who become Sikh, also become Amritdhari... and vast majority tie dastars, even women... like myself and that includes all of us who never set foot in a 3HO ashram either! I found it through purely Punjabi sangat.
> 
> There are actually MANY of us.... and maybe when some of the Punjabi Sikhs see us practicing it fully, they will start to come back when they realize what a gem Sikhi really is!



great Message Akasha 

The world is a constant flow of hot and cold, light and dark, hatred and compassion, revenge and forgiveness...

*for a person to truly recognize divinity or a path to divinity, they often must experience the opposite...*

for we would not know the beauty of light...if we hadn't experienced the dark...

Let the play unfold...lets keep our connection to naam strong, and continue to inspire others that have fallen into the darkness...it is our duty  there is always ample opportunity for positive action when everything around us seems so negative...


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## Abneet (Jun 20, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I am afraid it is much much worse even than that, out of those that continue to keep their hair, and continue to do Nitnem, most have little or no idea what is contained in Nitnem, but carry on doing it and keeping hair regardless, I am sure there are those that will view this situation like yourself, however, Sikhism is not limited to the Punjab, I am confident that in time to come, Punjab will end up with the lowest Sikh population in the world, why? because there is a revolution going on, gone or the days when you could stop a fully turbaned Sikh in the street and be guaranteed a 'Sikh', what you mostly get these days is someone that has been browbeaten into keeping hair and doing Nitnem, either by family or peer pressure, what we need are people that actually want to be Sikhs, people that hunger for it, that need it, rather than those that were born into it and take it for granted, Punjab will simply vanish under a multitude of deras and babas,  Sikhism in the Punjab will go full circle, with lots of traditions and rituals, the true meaning of Sikhism will be lost.
> 
> However, outside of Punjab, Sikhism will flourish, will grow, will find its roots, will find the very principles that enabled it to flourish back in the day, Sikhism belongs to the world, not just Punjab.



I agree that Punjab Sikhs are going downhill and its hitting near rock bottom. The rituals,deras,pakhandi babas, drugs, RSS, female foeticide and Sikh sects are destroying the root of Sikhi in Punjab. But I disagree that Sikhi will be gone from Punjab. I believe and hope that in the future that Sikhi will flourish through Punjab after a reset button occurs (revolution). I wouldn't be surprised if it happens within next 20 years where 75 % of young men are drug addicts and can't find jobs are just lost in life. 

We can say this is the end, but we never knew when is the end. Nobody knows. Those Sikhs in the jungles back in the 1700's who had prices on their heads didn't lose faith. Hey we have been in worse times. This is a very bad time but I can be sure that Sikhi will flourish entirely one day. It will take time indeed. Sikhi isn't a path for everyone remember that. Those who cut their hair we can blame their parents or themselves for forgetting about Guru's teachings. But its partially Khalsa Panth's fault for lack of parchar. Khalsa Panth need to be leaders and an example for those Sikhs who are lost in their faith. As of right now there is lack of that too. Right now the Panth is not doing what its supposed to. But in the future, who knows what can happen. Hope the best for the future of the Panth.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2014)

> Those who cut their hair we can blame their parents or themselves for forgetting about Guru's teachings.



Although I absolutely agree that full Sikh bana includes the hair, and I concede every argument about why hair should be kept (why would I not, I am after all a Sikh), I also feel that too much is put on the hair as a sign of inner Sikhism. It is possible to follow Guru's teachings whilst not having hair, just as it is possible to ignore Guru's teachings with the biggest juda in the world, making people keep hair is not going to save Sikhism, encouraging people to live good truthful lives so that they yearn to keep their hair is a different matter. 

It is unfortunate that for most people in Punjab, Sikhism is something that has been foisted on them with little or no explanation, on the one  hand, they are told that Guru Nanakji liberated them from pointless ritual and superstition, from caste discrimination, to see the sexes as equal, but then on the other hand, they are told to wear articles of clothing, to keep hair, they see their elders being ritualistic, superstitious, they get used to the sadness that surrounds a female birth, the anger when castes intermarry,  and who can blame them for wondering that Sikhism is even more ritualistic, superstitious than other religions. 

Without a good Sikh heart, the hair, the kirpans, the kachera, kanga, kara, are all as pointless as the thread that Guru Nanakji allegedly refused to wear on account it would not make him a better person, we have come full circle.


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## Abneet (Jun 21, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Although I absolutely agree that full Sikh bana includes the hair, and I concede every argument about why hair should be kept (why would I not, I am after all a Sikh), I also feel that too much is put on the hair as a sign of inner Sikhism. It is possible to follow Guru's teachings whilst not having hair, just as it is possible to ignore Guru's teachings with the biggest juda in the world, making people keep hair is not going to save Sikhism, encouraging people to live good truthful lives so that they yearn to keep their hair is a different matter.
> 
> It is unfortunate that for most people in Punjab, Sikhism is something that has been foisted on them with little or no explanation, on the one  hand, they are told that Guru Nanakji liberated them from pointless ritual and superstition, from caste discrimination, to see the sexes as equal, but then on the other hand, they are told to wear articles of clothing, to keep hair, they see their elders being ritualistic, superstitious, they get used to the sadness that surrounds a female birth, the anger when castes intermarry,  and who can blame them for wondering that Sikhism is even more ritualistic, superstitious than other religions.
> 
> Without a good Sikh heart, the hair, the kirpans, the kachera, kanga, kara, are all as pointless as the thread that Guru Nanakji allegedly refused to wear on account it would not make him a better person, we have come full circle.



Sorry I kind of mis-led you on what I meant by that quote. I mean we can blame the parents or the kids for their lack understanding of the guru ji's teachings but who's real fault is it. We don't know it might be due to their past life they have to go through this phase or we can blame (like me) the Khalsa Panth not being there to inspire those Sikhs who have quarreling minds. We are silent as we can be at the moment. Punjabis are still doing marriages based on caste and rituals because they have no guidance. Christian Sikhs in Punjab are being told to keep their turban and beard to fit in but practice Christianity lol. Things are bad in Punjab even sardars are among the drug addicts in Punjab. The thing is who is making it more ritualistic than it was. Who is stopping the Sikhs from doing what they are supposed to do? Is it entirely our fault or is that in the 80's and 90's Indian gov't wiped out 250,000 Sikhs and now we are left with these kind of Sikhs.....

I agree with you keeping hair is not what we should encourage other Sikhs to do first of most things. Just like parchariks these days that say chak amrit only. Then they don't care about what you do afterwards. Sikhs who are infused in worldy affairs at the moment need that guidance to understand gurmat and live by the rules of gurmat. If I was to do parchar on a mona I wouldn't tell him to keep his hair first. I would teach him and led him on the right path that our Gurus have laid down for us and eventually he would understand himself the important of keeping kesh (hopefully lol). Most turbaned Sikhs shave and a lot drink by the way, but they remember their Guru and come to gurdwara often and etc.. But 75% monas are not interested in Sikhi and do shave and drink atleast in my country I know. Very few monas do naam japna and read Bani and I utterly respect them for that.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2014)

> Sorry I kind of mis-led you on what I meant by that quote. I mean we can blame the parents or the kids for their lack understanding of the guru ji's teachings but who's real fault is it. We don't know it might be due to their past life



Sorry, I do not understand what their past life would have to do with it? 



> we can blame (like me) the Khalsa Panth not being there to inspire those Sikhs



Can you please define Khalsa Panth?



> Who is stopping the Sikhs from doing what they are supposed to do?



You make Sikhs sound like village idiots with no brains for themselves, no one needs to stop Sikhs doing anything,  Sikhs need to start thinking for themselves



> If I was to do parchar on a mona I wouldn't tell him to keep his hair first. I would teach him and led him on the right path that our Gurus have laid down for us and eventually he would understand himself the important of keeping kesh



I am a mona, I think the thought of you doing parchar on me is probably enough for me to start growing my hair lol



> Most turbaned Sikhs shave and a lot drink by the way, but they remember their Guru and come to gurdwara often and etc.



oh thats ok then! 



> . Very few monas do naam japna and read Bani and I utterly respect them for that.



why?


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## Abneet (Jun 21, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Sorry, I do not understand what their past life would have to do with it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course if you believe in karma and reincarnation like Sikhs are supposed to you would understand as I remember to don't believe in that.

The Khalsa Panth is the worlwide community of Khalsa members. Whos job is supposed to fight and serve the weak and also do parchar so Raaj comes. Right now there isn't no organized Khalsa Panth as again I mentioned 250,000 Sikhs mostly beard and turbans were killed in Punjab leaving the Sikhs in a bad state.

Sikhs are partially to blame for our weak leadership. RSS and other missionaries pouring into Punjab is happening with a purpose. Them distorting school books about our guru's history is quite the problem. Other stuff too that Indian gov't has been doing in this "silent genocide".

Doing parchar on you would be a big task eh? 

No its not okay for those Sikhs with hair to do those things. but they need guidance to take the next step. I meant i respect the few monas that do naam simran or seva atleast thats only 5% of the total.


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## gur_meet (Jun 22, 2014)

Just a thought and a question to ponder.

*When does a person begins to change ? 
*

By change here means starts to keep hair, go for amrit , begins to do regular nitnem simran and vichar , ...

Is it by listening to parchar.
Is it when facing a Dukh ( suffering ) or a problem.
Is it ' follow the group"  - at peer level others are doing so.
Does the intention to change as such come from within or is external influence .


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2014)

> Of course if you believe in karma and reincarnation like Sikhs are supposed to you would understand as I remember to don't believe in that.



Reincarnation and karma are questioned by many Sikhs, not just me



> The Khalsa Panth is the worlwide community of Khalsa members. Whos job is supposed to fight and serve the weak and also do parchar so Raaj comes. Right now there isn't no organized Khalsa Panth as again I mentioned 250,000 Sikhs mostly beard and turbans were killed in Punjab leaving the Sikhs in a bad state.



please define 'raaj comes'


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2014)

> When does a person begins to change ?



when living by the self causes so many problems, when ego, pride, lust eat into your life so much that every day is hell, when you have a mountain of consequences from actions encouraged by the self, when, towards the end, you yearn for something clean, something pure, when you start to wash yourself with the soap of truth, when you realise the difference between the truth and the self, then, in my opinion, you begin to change


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## Awakeand Singh (Jun 22, 2014)

harry haller said:


> when living by the self causes so many problems, when ego, pride, lust eat into your life so much that every day is hell, when you have a mountain of consequences from actions encouraged by the self, when, towards the end, you yearn for something clean, something pure, when you start to wash yourself with the soap of truth, when you realise the difference between the truth and the self, then, in my opinion, you begin to change



I'd like to hear your definition of "self". It seems to me that you're making it synonymous with "ego". "Self", to me , represents that entirely-conscious aspect of being which views the ego and its unconscious, auto-pilot machinations, impressions, judgements, comparisons and fears. The overwhelming majority of us live almost our entire lives in ha'umai (ego, for lack of a better term). That "self" is precisely that which is the, "something clean, something pure", of which you speak. 

If you haven't seen it already I strongly recommend, "A New Earth", by Eckhardt Tolle, in which this idea is brilliantly elucidated, and which - to my mind - expounds the ideas put forth by the Gurus in easily-accessible contemporary language. It's not the first time I've flogged this book on these pages, and I'd like to know if others have gained the same impression.


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## gur_meet (Jun 22, 2014)

Awakeand Singh said:


> I'd like to hear your definition of "self". It seems to me that you're making it synonymous with "ego". "Self", to me , represents that entirely-conscious aspect of being which views the ego and its unconscious, auto-pilot machinations, impressions, judgements, comparisons and fears. The overwhelming majority of us live almost our entire lives in ha'umai (ego, for lack of a better term). That "self" is precisely that which is the, "something clean, something pure", of which you speak.
> 
> If you haven't seen it already I strongly recommend, "A New Earth", by Eckhardt Tolle, in which this idea is brilliantly elucidated, and which - to my mind - expounds the ideas put forth by the Gurus in easily-accessible contemporary language. It's not the first time I've flogged this book on these pages, and I'd like to know if others have gained the same impression.




Gurbani explains it in a different way.   The word Haumai  is often translated as ego in the absence of another suitable word means a separate self-identity . It is more equivalent to the word "I " . Gurbani explains the true nature of the individual as ' Jyote swaroope " - like saying a drop of the big ocean but being unaware of true nature because of presence of Haumai.

The direction which gurbani takes is of purity within and purity in the world . There is direction towards oneness. 

I have not read the book but did looked at what was inside in a book store. There were some similar looking ideas being explained but having known gurbani it appeared dry .

In gurbani "living by the self" means being manmukh.


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## Abneet (Jun 22, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Reincarnation and karma are questioned by many Sikhs, not just me
> 
> The answer is in GGS that there is proof of reincarnation and karma but I'm not surprised people questioning it because the way karma system works is somewhat hard to explain. Reincarnation is what every Sikh should believe or else I would personally like to know what you think happens afterlife.
> 
> ...



Raaj comes when we start doing what our Gurus told us to do.


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## gur_meet (Jun 22, 2014)

Awakeand Singh ji

Looked at the contents of the book "A New Earth", by Eckhardt Tolle online. Feels good that there is more and more thought towards oneness . There is also a chapter on illusionary self. 

About Haume gurbani says ( here also translator has used  word ego )

ਮਹਲਾ ੨ ॥
Mehalaa 2 ||
Second Mehl:
ਹਉਮੈ ਏਹਾ ਜਾਤਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Houmai Eaehaa Jaath Hai Houmai Karam Kamaahi ||
This is the nature of ego, that people perform their actions in ego.

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਈ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
Houmai Eaeee Bandhhanaa Fir Fir Jonee Paahi ||
This is the bondage of ego, that time and time again, they are reborn.

ਹਉਮੈ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਕਿਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਇਹ ਜਾਇ ॥
Houmai Kithhahu Oopajai Kith Sanjam Eih Jaae ||
Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਹੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥
Houmai Eaeho Hukam Hai Paeiai Kirath Firaahi ||
This ego exists by the Lord's Order; people wander according to their past actions.

ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Houmai Dheeragh Rog Hai Dhaaroo Bhee Eis Maahi ||
Ego is a chronic disease, but it contains its own cure as well.

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Kirapaa Karae Jae Aapanee Thaa Gur Kaa Sabadh Kamaahi ||
If the Lord grants His Grace, one acts according to the Teachings of the Guru's Shabad.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਜਨਹੁ ਇਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਦੁਖ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
Naanak Kehai Sunahu Janahu Eith Sanjam Dhukh Jaahi ||2|| 
Nanak says, listen, people: in this way, troubles depart. ||2|| 
ਆਸਾ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮ: ੨) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੬੬ Page 466


The Change comes when kirpa is there.


Now to the topic. Sikhi came into existence with Guru Nanak . In the course of history there would be changes. Some would leave and some would come. At one place siks would be less while at other new ones would come. Guruji were for a better world and better humans.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 23, 2014)

Awakeand Singh said:


> I'd like to hear your definition of "self". It seems to me that you're making it synonymous with "ego". "Self", to me , represents that entirely-conscious aspect of being which views the ego and its unconscious, auto-pilot machinations, impressions, judgements, comparisons and fears. The overwhelming majority of us live almost our entire lives in ha'umai (ego, for lack of a better term). That "self" is precisely that which is the, "something clean, something pure", of which you speak.
> 
> If you haven't seen it already I strongly recommend, "A New Earth", by Eckhardt Tolle, in which this idea is brilliantly elucidated, and which - to my mind - expounds the ideas put forth by the Gurus in easily-accessible contemporary language. It's not the first time I've flogged this book on these pages, and I'd like to know if others have gained the same impression.



to me the definition of the self is just that, the self, as in selfish, self self self, me, me me, as opposed to the truth, which can include the self, which can include anything, provided it is true


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## Harry Haller (Jun 23, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Raaj comes when we start doing what our Gurus told us to do.



ok, sorry to be pedantic, but what is Raaj? you have explained how to bring about Raaj, but what is Raaj?


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## Sherdil (Jun 23, 2014)

amarinder said:


> Jawarlal nehru once said," Most of the big Empires fell not because of external forces but because of the crumbling within."
> 
> Same is true for our religion. We fought the hardest battles but is on the verge to loose because of our own people. In my school's class, out of total 20 boys, 18 were sardars and tied turbans. After 12 class, most of them cut their hair. In my college, 40 boys were from punjab but only 5 were sikhs( an indication that sikh boys that study in good colleges). In my MBA class, all boys were from punjab only 2 are sikhs ,including me.
> 
> ...



Keeping hair is not the be-all and end-all of Sikhi. There are people who cut their hair, but do nitnem regularly. Then there are people who keep their hair who don't do nitnem at all. It isn't wise to generalize people, or pass judgments solely based on their appearance. 

I would venture to say 75% of Muslim women don't wear the Hijab. Maybe 90% of Jewish men don't wear the yarmulka. About 95% of Brahmans don't have a dot on their forehead, or shave their heads with a ponytail in the back, or wear the janeau. I don't hear any of them complaining that their religion is going down the drain. That's because religion is more than just physical appearance. Keeping hair is just the tip of the iceberg in Sikhism. There is so much more. 

The people who make Sikhi just about keeping hair are the ones who push people away. When we go to gurdwara and see amritdhari sardars beating each other up over who gets to use the microphone first, we start to wonder why anyone would want to be like that. Amritdharis are supposed to be the vanguards of our faith, but they have let us down. Not all are bad, but the ones who fight each other to represent us sure are rotten. They are the ones who are hurting Sikhi. 

Going back to Nitnem, I would say that 90% of people who do their daily Nitnem just babble through it without thinking about what they are saying. They get through it as quickly as they can, like they are getting a chore over with. Whether it is in the shower or during their commute to-and-from work, they just want to get it over and done with, but they aren't gaining any benefit from those words. 

This is why Guru ji chose amrit vela as the perfect time to recite Jap ji Sahib. The mind is fresh. You have time to think about what you are saying. That is why Guru ji includes the word "rahao" so many times. It means "pause and reflect". 

In today's world, everyone is pressed for time. Maybe we aren't able to pause and reflect. Perhaps then we should search for alternatives. Maybe try to dissect gurbani bit by bit on your own, when you have free time. Or visit forums such as this one, where you can discuss and share ideas so your understanding grows. I believe this is what Guru ji would have wanted. He wasn't just giving us an extra chore to do. He wanted our understanding to grow. 

Bhul Chuk Maaf

EDIT: This is a funny and relevant clip
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Sx27vxPVBmk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## ActsOfGod (Jun 23, 2014)

amarinder said:


> Jawarlal nehru once said," Most of the big Empires fell not because of external forces but because of the crumbling within."
> 
> Same is true for our religion. We fought the hardest battles but is on the verge to loose because of our own people. In my school's class, out of total 20 boys, 18 were sardars and tied turbans. After 12 class, most of them cut their hair. In my college, 40 boys were from punjab but only 5 were sikhs( an indication that sikh boys that study in good colleges). In my MBA class, all boys were from punjab only 2 are sikhs ,including me.
> 
> ...




I think perhaps you should worry about your own bhagti and the fate of your own soul, rather then the demise of all Sardars or all of Sikhi.  Leave it to our Father to worry about the continuation of Sikhi in punjab and in the world.  He who installed and decorated the Panth will preserve it.  There is no need to be anxious or frightened.  Have a little bit of faith.

As far as other people cutting their hair, it's probably best not to judge them.  You will never know another persons pain and life circumstances.  It's always advisable to have an open heart and try to help out your brothers and sisters, yes even the fallen Sikhs.  Show them some love and caring, they are the ones who need it the most.  They get enough of harsh judgement already.  A human being should not be condemned just because he or she cuts their hair and "leaves" Sikhi.  Remember the Chali Mukte, and remember that our Guru-Pita is ever forgiving, beyond our capability to comprehend.  So even while some folks might decide to walk away from the Guru, the Guru will never leave or abandon them.  That's how much love he has for us (even in our sorry state).  And so neither should we give up on them.  That is the whole point, to redeem the beings who are crying out in pain and suffering.  And you cannot help someone by condemning them and judging them.

I would suggest you read some of Bhai Vir Singh's writings, especially Pyare Jio.

GurFateh!
AoG


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Sorry I kind of mis-led you on what I meant by that quote. I mean we can blame the parents or the kids for their lack understanding of the guru ji's teachings but who's real fault is it. We don't know it might be due to their past life they have to go through this phase or we can blame (like me) the Khalsa Panth not being there to inspire those Sikhs who have quarreling minds. We are silent as we can be at the moment. Punjabis are still doing marriages based on caste and rituals because they have no guidance. Christian Sikhs in Punjab are being told to keep their turban and beard to fit in but practice Christianity lol. Things are bad in Punjab even sardars are among the drug addicts in Punjab. The thing is who is making it more ritualistic than it was. Who is stopping the Sikhs from doing what they are supposed to do? Is it entirely our fault or is that in the 80's and 90's Indian gov't wiped out 250,000 Sikhs and now we are left with these kind of Sikhs.....
> 
> I agree with you keeping hair is not what we should encourage other Sikhs to do first of most things. Just like parchariks these days that say chak amrit only. Then they don't care about what you do afterwards. Sikhs who are infused in worldy affairs at the moment need that guidance to understand gurmat and live by the rules of gurmat. If I was to do parchar on a mona I wouldn't tell him to keep his hair first. I would teach him and led him on the right path that our Gurus have laid down for us and eventually he would understand himself the important of keeping kesh (hopefully lol). Most turbaned Sikhs shave and a lot drink by the way, but they remember their Guru and come to gurdwara often and etc.. But 75% monas are not interested in Sikhi and do shave and drink atleast in my country I know. Very few monas do naam japna and read Bani and I utterly respect them for that.



yes ji,

Internal Sikhi brings forth a bright external sikhi...

in the past i used to 'follow rules' for the sake of following rules.

thankfully now, through regular Simran and Seva...i am beginning to understand that many of sikhi's rules are not in fact rules...

you should not drink or Do drugs (rules)
if i drink, my mind is unstable and i can no longer do my simran nor participate in society as a productive human being (understanding)

I should not cut my hair (rule)
A relaxed, healthy and peaceful body that is left in as natural state as much as possible will help with my Simran and state of being (understanding)...

and this is not just about hair..it is everything...how i eat...how i exercise...how i communicate...having a good balance of everything...

*in my humble opinion...people are tired of rules because they can;t make a connection with these supposed rules and the actual benefit it has to their spiritual practice.*

just like i went and still am falling on this path many times and learning from this, so will all these people...the experience is often needed to understand all this.


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## amarinder (Jun 24, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> yes ji,
> 
> Internal Sikhi brings forth a bright external sikhi...
> 
> ...




So you think, the top post priority should be do Simran? All the other things will fall in line slowly. Is this what you mean?


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2014)

amarinder said:


> So you think, the top post priority should be do Simran? All the other things will fall in line slowly. Is this what you mean?



I think you should try do do as much as you can...external and internal

but the deeper understanding of everything will develop and evolve in line with how you develop internally as well...that's just from my personal experience...

Simran is described as being the greatest of all actions


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2014)

amarinder said:


> So you think, the top post priority should be do Simran? All the other things will fall in line slowly. Is this what you mean?



I have just been reading a book called 'Shabd Guru Surat Dhun Chela'

the following verse is what Giani Sant Singh ji Maskeen wrote about outer and inner form...

"
*In the whole world, we are known by two names:
'Sikh' and 'Singh'.

Sikh is our thinking form. Singh is our manifested form.
What is Sikh? He is visible as a 'Singh' due to five Kakaars (symbols).
In this way we have got two names and two forms:
'Sikh and Singh'.

Sikh is the subtle form and Singh is the solid form.
Sikhi is not visible, as views, thinking and contemplation are also not visible.
But Sikhi is the foundation, Bani is the foundation and uniform is the structure.
Strong palaces can not be constructed on weak foundations.

If the strength of Bani is not at the base of Bana that Bana will disappear today or tomorrow. But if Bana is based upon the strengthof Bani, then one can get, limb by limb, cut or get fragmented, but Bana wiIl not
get separated from the body, because it is the manifest form of Guru ji,
and Bani is the subtle form of Guruji.

*Conclusion: Have good internal sikhi and the singh (outer) will be perfect, beautful, fearless and strong
                  outer (singh) will crumble if the inner (sikhi) is weak...


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## Ishna (Jun 24, 2014)

This thread will not become about simran and meditation. Thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 24, 2014)

Guru Fateh to all,

Interesting interaction at the intersections of the New Delhi roads where everyone wants to go somewhere, gets nowhere but everybody keeps on honking.

The title is interesting. Is this the End?

End of what? Every end has a new beginning. But I understand the frustrations of Amarninder Singh in Punjab, especially in the big cities where Sikhs are seen entertaining themselves at the new fad, Hookah Bars proudly exhaling through their nostrils because ignorance has dictated them that the stuff they put in hookah is not tobacco but something “else” flavored, or shall I say tobacco wrapped in rose petals. This absence of guilt laced with ignorance is just in order to dash with the trend. In many parts of India, Sikhi is in dire straits for the reasons well known to us but no one is ready to do anything about it. Sikhi is taught as a parroting counter. So many times of Mool Mantar, Japji, Dukh Bhanjani, Malas, Chelias to be repeated mindlessly in order to reach ‘ Sikhi Nirvana’.

People go to pilgrimages, fast, take dips, and indulge in all kinds of nonsensical mechanical rituals which are meaningless and last but not the least, parrot Gurbani rather than understanding and practicing it in real life so goodness can be bred within to be shared with others. The former is not Sikhi by the only benchmark which is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru and the latter is the GPS given by our same Guru, the one we ignore most of the times unconsciously because we believe more in Matha Tek and count the amount of Japjis we have parroted. In some summer camps counters are given to the attendees to count the numbers of ‘Vahegurus’ chanted. It is sad to say that many read the whole Guru Granth many times a year but not a single meaning in it is practiced in real life.

Many in here claim to be experts in some kind of meditation by repeating some mantras whose meaning I am still not able to grasp. I saw a thread here about the pain in the neck. Sorry, pain in the unibrow because of this repetition due to meditation. I have been studying Gurbani for quite some years and nowhere in this Manual of ours-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, does it mention the modus operandi of this “me-ism indulgence”

Anyway coming back to the topic, we are good at counting heads with the turbans at the places we live and especially in Punjab rather than interacting and behaving  like Sikhs as Sikhi demands from us.

Yes, bana is a great thing and eventually all with the inner Sikhi will end up wearing it. The best example I can proudly say is Harry ji who is a mona but with the Sikhi drumbeats in his veins, it ought to happen sooner than later. But that is not the point. Harry for me is a walking, working, interacting Sikh doer. I wish many were like him and I do not doubt if there are.

So, let’s not count Sikhs and Sikhi merely by the regalia but through one’s deeds and works which are written hundreds of times in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji provided we study it in order to make them our second nature.

It is OK to stand out only if we become outstanding with it.

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jun 24, 2014)

harry haller said:


> ok, sorry to be pedantic, but what is Raaj? you have explained how to bring about Raaj, but what is Raaj?



Raaj is when everyone is enlightened by the Khalsa and mostly Sikhi. Raaj can bring satyug. Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't say "Raag Kharega Khalsa, aaki rahi na koe" for no reason. Guru ji will give us Raaj when the Khalsa,who are in the bad state today, understand what they need to accomplish to bring enlightenment to all in this world. We Sikhs are putting ourselves in a deep hole while we are trying to fight the panj chor daily we have other issues going on in our Panth.

Went off topic but Raaj is when Khalsa flourishes and impure and evil-doers are gone away with. So that brings Satyug. Now do we know when it's going to happen. Nope. But can we plan for Raaj? Indeed. Will there be many wars to get Raaj? Indeed, Sikhs have been always sacrificing their lives for others we will be tested again and again but our Sikhi faith never leaves. Shaheeds really make our panth strong as steel. Also I can guarentee all the sacrifices in the past most importantly in 1984 aren't going to waste. Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't sacrifice his 4 sons for us to come to an end as some Sikhs believe. We will get what we aim for with the help of Guru ji but we need to start doing what the Gurus came here and told us to do. Hope that explains it and sorry for going off topic alittle.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 24, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Raaj is when everyone is enlightened by the Khalsa and mostly Sikhi. Raaj can bring satyug. Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't say "Raag Kharega Khalsa, aaki rahi na koe" for no reason. Guru ji will give us Raaj when the Khalsa,who are in the bad state today, understand what they need to accomplish to bring enlightenment to all in this world. We Sikhs are putting ourselves in a deep hole while we are trying to fight the panj chor daily we have other issues going on in our Panth.
> 
> Went off topic but Raaj is when Khalsa flourishes and impure and evil-doers are gone away with. So that brings Satyug. Now do we know when it's going to happen. Nope. But can we plan for Raaj? Indeed. Will there be many wars to get Raaj? Indeed, Sikhs have been always sacrificing their lives for others we will be tested again and again but our Sikhi faith never leaves. Shaheeds really make our panth strong as steel. Also I can guarentee all the sacrifices in the past most importantly in 1984 aren't going to waste. Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't sacrifice his 4 sons for us to come to an end as some Sikhs believe. We will get what we aim for with the help of Guru ji but we need to start doing what the Gurus came here and told us to do. Hope that explains it and sorry for going off topic alittle.



I am sorry to say but this sounds more like the Abrahamic religions than Sikhi.

According to Gurbani, a Sikh does not strive for Raj, nor for Eternal life but only by being a good Sikh through understanding and practicing Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru says that.

This is part of the whole Shabad:
ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥ राजु न चाहउ मुकति न चाहउ मनि प्रीति चरन कमलारे ॥ 

Rāj na cẖāha▫o mukaṯ na cẖāha▫o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlāre. 

I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet. Page 534

Tejwant Singh

PS: If you like, I can post the whole shabad and express my own understanding about it.


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## Abneet (Jun 24, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I am sorry to say but this more sounds like the Abrahamic religions than Sikhi.
> 
> According to Gurbani, a Sikh does not strive for Raj, nor for Eternal life but only being a good Sikh by understanding and practicing Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru says that.
> 
> ...



You have a valid point. As I remember now I heard once in a katha that Khalsa Raaj will happen by itself if we take care of ourselves first by reading Bani and implementing the teachings to our lives. Then Guru ji will help us. So in a way you are right. But Sikhs need a stabilized Panth. We as Sikhs can't depend on Guru ji all the time we need to make change happen for example Singh Sabha movement. We have no central authority. Forget about the Akal Takht, gurdwaras aren't following some of their hukamnamas. We need sarbat Khalsa in my opinion. But again on the topic there is no end of Sikhi. Many have tried and tried but they all have failed. People saying this is the end is kind of saying like GGS is nothing anymore and there is no hope with the GGS. GGS is here we need to learn the teachings, implement it in our daily lives, and live truthfully according to its teachings. Sikhs these days just want a physical Guru to be honest..


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 24, 2014)

Abneet said:


> You have a valid point. As I remember now I heard once in a katha that Khalsa Raaj will happen by itself if we take care of ourselves first by reading Bani and implementing the teachings to our lives. Then Guru ji will help us. So in a way you are right. But Sikhs need a stabilized Panth. We as Sikhs can't depend on Guru ji all the time we need to make change happen for example Singh Sabha movement. We have no central authority. Forget about the Akal Takht, gurdwaras aren't following some of their hukamnamas. We need sarbat Khalsa in my opinion. But again on the topic there is no end of Sikhi. Many have tried and tried but they all have failed. People saying this is the end is kind of saying like GGS is nothing anymore and there is no hope with the GGS. GGS is here we need to learn the teachings, implement it in our daily lives, and live truthfully according to its teachings. Sikhs these days just want a physical Guru to be honest..



Abneet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are mixing apples with matzo baalls, so to speak. Yes, changes are needed all the times in Sikhi but with prudence and with the collective understanding of Gurbani. And that is a different topic on its own. 

You may start the thread for that if you like.

Lastly, I would not base my Sikhi on any Kathavachaks but on the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jun 25, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I am sorry to say but this sounds more like the Abrahamic religions than Sikhi.
> 
> According to Gurbani, a Sikh does not strive for Raj, nor for Eternal life but only by being a good Sikh through understanding and practicing Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru says that.
> 
> ...



please post all the shabad or a large proportion of it ji...

these are the rules we all try to keep

Thanks


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> please post all the shabad or a large proportion of it ji...
> 
> these are the rules we all try to keep
> 
> Thanks



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh and it is nice to see you again. I hope you have read the whole thread and the interaction between Abneet and Harry regarding Raj where Abneet was certain about this Raj thing as he was told by someone.

You may have noticed that after posting the verse so he could correct his thinking about it, I asked him that I would  post the whole shabad with my own understanding if he wished so. Have you read the whole shabad whose one verse I have posted, studied it and understood it? I have. This particular  verse from the whole shabad was posted on purpose by me so he could steer his Sikhi boat towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru about the Raj. He agreed with the verse from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and changed his thinking as it shows in the  post.

As you must have studied the whole shabad after I posted the page number and if you happen to disagree with me about its meaning, then let me know and we can discuss about it with our own understandings of the whole shabad. I am open to learning.

The rule that I myself created is to post the whole shabad with one's own understanding not just copying and pasting literal translation.I am very well aware of that as you are.

So, I request you that let's not allow ourselves to waste this great privilege of monitoring bestowed upon us without understanding its power and the context which matters the most.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 25, 2014)

Akasha ji and Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please do not think for a minute that I have ignored you in this thread as being Sikhs. This thread was started by Amarinder about the state of Sikhi in India and then Arshi ji pitched in about him seeing many people without turbans in his classes in the UK. But the problem is very severe in India, especially in Punjab because it has become the drug route from Pakistan and as a result many Punjabis where the majority is Sikh, visible or not; are getting hooked on heroin and other drugs. It started in the poor areas and is spreading in the suburbs like wild fires because of the kids who have entered the middle class due to IT and the Business degrees.

In fact, Sikhi is increasing in the diaspora among the Sikh families who had shun their hair and other things in order to “fit in” which is a self- defeating prophecy anywhere in my opinion. And more important, thanks to people like you who are coming to Sikhi on their own after having had the exposure. I am very proud of you two and of many more I know in my life who have done the same.

The recent example is of the Aussie hunk, Tyler Atkins- the boy of thunder from down under- who had dated Paris Hilton which shows his poor taste as far as women are concerned, but that topic is for another day. He is taking a big risk by going to Hollywood with his bana. Well, come to think of it, the bana may work as an asset now after Waris Singh Ahulwalia’s exposure in Hollywood and in the fashion world. Tyler has already lined up some modeling agencies which is a great thing and I wish him all the best.

There is a show here in Las Vegas named- The Boys of Thunder from Down Under. This show has been running for years now and is always jam packed with the Baptist ladies from the South who leave their KJV Bibles at home and hide the Gideons that they have in their bedrooms under the yellow pages.

This show is about all these Aussie hunks in mini Speedos getting dollar bills stuffed in them by these pious, god fearing, Jesus loving ladies. LOL.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jun 25, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Akasha ji and Ishna ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



just read some articles on Tyler Atkins...
An interesting change in direction...i wish him all the best with his new lifestyle and venture back into Hollywood.


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## Abneet (Jun 27, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Definitely changes are needed in Sikh history. One is needed right now! But it won't happen if we don't unite PERIOD. This isn't the end again. Whoever thinks Sikhi is ending soon needs a good kick to the head. 

Good reputable kathavachaks are hard to find but I got that one from Baba Mann Singh. Now some kathavachaks you can't believe what they say you would obviously have to research what they say or believe them if they have a good reputation. Nowadays we have kathavachaks going on stage giving anti-gurmat teachings (ex:dhunda):singhsippingcoffee:


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## Harry Haller (Jun 27, 2014)

> Nowadays we have kathavachaks going on stage giving anti-gurmat teachings (ex:dhunda)



does ex stand for except or example?


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## Abneet (Jun 29, 2014)

harry haller said:


> does ex stand for except or example?



example lol got a little lazy there.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2014)

Abneet said:


> example lol got a little lazy there.




what is anti Gurmat about Dhunda?


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## Ishna (Jun 29, 2014)

Proudly presenting...  A Professor Sarbjit Singh Dhunda thread for your enjoyment: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/36858-professor-sarbjit-singh-dhunda-4.html 

*takes a bow*


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## Rajwinder (Jun 29, 2014)

i think this is what happened : Originally qualities were developed in individuals and an visible identity was given to them ( hairs etc ) , with time identity was given more emphasis then the quality and now in many cases it is just the identity ;-). In a way it is happening for good .. watching a turban guy with floating bearded :redturban: doing wrong deads is just a dark spot on the Sikh philosophy itself. These cycles of changes and revolutions will keep on coming and going .. dont worry , may be once people will be feed up from crappy stuff they will realize that a simple living is best living ;-).


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 29, 2014)

Rajwinder said:


> i think this is what happened : Originally qualities were developed in individuals and an visible identity was given to them ( hairs etc ) , with time identity was given more emphasis then the quality and now in many cases it is just the identity ;-). In a way it is happening for good .. watching a turban guy with floating bearded :redturban: doing wrong deads is just a dark spot on the Sikh philosophy itself. These cycles of changes and revolutions will keep on coming and going .. *dont worry , may be once people will be feed up from crappy stuff they will realize that a simple living is best living ;-).*



Rajwinder ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I am a bit confused by your post.

One must try to be outstanding as a person no matter what hue,creed or faith one belongs to. It is a humane thing to do. Yes, if one stands out, one's deeds either good or bad stand out as a laurel or a sore thumb but that is irrelevant because Selfless Deeds do not need any laurels. SGGS, our only Guru teaches us that. They are part of the second nature of a Sikh with or without the baana.

What kind of identity do Sikh women have except some wear dastaar like the Sikh men do?

Could you please elaborate what I have put in bold in your post so that I can understand what you mean?

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Definitely changes are needed in Sikh history. One is needed right now! But it won't happen if we don't unite PERIOD. This isn't the end again. Whoever thinks Sikhi is ending soon needs a good kick to the head.
> 
> Good reputable kathavachaks are hard to find but I got that one from Baba Mann Singh. Now some kathavachaks you can't believe what they say you would obviously have to research what they say or believe them if they have a good reputation. Nowadays we have kathavachaks going on stage giving anti-gurmat teachings (ex:dhunda):singhsippingcoffee:



Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Did Baba Mann Singh tell you about his anti Gurmat stance of Raaj or do you agree with him?

Where did he learn his preaching?

What do you find against Dhunda?

Have you listened to/watched/read about his Sikhi thoughts or is it just hearsay? Please clarify.

History can not be changed. I do not know where you got that from but Sikhi thought is always open for improvements. This is the reason we are called Sikhs.Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea who gave you the impression that,



> Whoever thinks Sikhi is ending soon needs a good kick to the head.



From my perspective it is to the contrary. I know many Gurdwaras with food pantries handing food to the poor who are mainly Latin and Blacks and the organisers of these pantries are young Sikhs. In my world, Sikhi is blossoming and for that one has to be the practitioner of Sikhi not just a chanter of Gurbani mindlessly.

Regarding Kathavachaks, everyone has their own opinions. Some who are too lazy to find the Sikhi path by themselves as it is their duty to believe every word of these snakeoil salesmen. Many years ago, I used to be with the Kathavachaks when I did not study Gurbani but was its great parrot and at that time Kathavachaks where "heaven" sent for me. I used to go, listen and try to hold on to every word they said as "god sent" in a very faithful manner and quote them during my discussions about "Sikhi". They became my St. Peter at the "Heavenly Gate" of this very life, my "Brokers of Sikhi", so to speak. They gave me the impression that they had some kind extra power and Ik Ong Kaar listened and talked to us through them provided one claims Ik Ong Kaar is a deity as sadly many Kathavachaks do which is nothing but false and an in hogwash.

After I started making my own effort as Gurbani commands us to do by studying, understanding and practicing Gurbani, I came to the realisation that Kathavachaks were not sharing their understandings of Gurbani but to the contrary. Almost all of them babble "Kachi Gurbani", self-concocted stories to justify why this and that is written by our Gurus. For those who are not aware of the word "Kachi" , it literally, means something that is not fully cooked, or shall we say cooked up in English.

That includes even the famous like Late Maskeen ji.

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jun 30, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Baba Mann Singh was a devotee of Sant Isher RaraSahib Wale. I posted the other thread about Dhunda. Dhunda is form Gurmat Gian Missonary in Ludhiana which is known to distort Sikhi. I have nothing else to say about him. http://sikhsangat.org/2012/misguided-parchar-of-sarbjit-singh-dhunda-and-his-missionary-fellows/
You can like him Tejwant Singh I won't say anything bad at you listening to his talks. 

Now you mention young Sikhs practicing Sikhi handing out food. Well thats nice but are they practicing Naam too? We can be Sikhs who give out food like a lot of Catholics who have no spiritual progress or we can be both and be strong and see Sikhi blossom and strengthen our sangat worldwide.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Baba Mann Singh was a devotee of Sant Isher RaraSahib Wale. I posted the other thread about Dhunda. Dhunda is form Gurmat Gian Missonary in Ludhiana which is known to distort Sikhi. I have nothing else to say about him. http://sikhsangat.org/2012/misguided-parchar-of-sarbjit-singh-dhunda-and-his-missionary-fellows/
> You can like him Tejwant Singh I won't say anything bad at you listening to his talks.
> 
> Now you mention young Sikhs practicing Sikhi handing out food. Well thats nice but are they practicing Naam too? We can be Sikhs who give out food like a lot of Catholics who have no spiritual progress or we can be both and be strong and see Sikhi blossom and strengthen our sangat worldwide.



Abneet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You still have not answered my question. 

Why did you believe in the RAAJ thing from Baba Mann Singh who was a devotee of Sant Isher RaraSahib Wale according to you when he was teaching against the Gurbani from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?

You insisted in the RAAJ thing for several posts with Harry until I jumped in. I thought you had studied Gurbani from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about it.

Who is Sant Isher Singh and who gave him that title?

Is the title according to the Gurmat values of Sikhi in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Isn't handing food to the needy practicing NAAM in the real sense?  Why this prejudgment on your part?

We, as Sikhs can only judge ourselves, no one else.

What is your modus operandi of practicing NAAM according to you?

Please elaborate.

How can you judge The Catholics of their deeds and how do you know that they have no spiritual progress? Please elaborate with concrete examples.

This seems quite appalling to me because Gurmat values teach us to respect others' faiths.

Do you agree with the Gurmat values or not? If not, why not?



> I posted the other thread about Dhunda. Dhunda is form Gurmat Gian Missonary in Ludhiana which is known to distort Sikhi.



Known by whom to distort Sikhi?

Please give some concrete examples of your above claim.


Regards

Tejwant singh


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## Abneet (Jun 30, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Dear Tejwant ji, when did Baba Mann Singh teached Anti-Gurmat views? I knew he had false allegations by the media too make him look bad, but he went to Akal Takht back in 2006 and was cleared. I would be interested if you can tell me his anti-gurmat views. What is his view of Raaj according to your sources?

We gave Sant Isher Singh Rarasahib wale that title. Only god knows who are the real sants, but I'm sure Baba Isher Singh is a Sant. 

according to me Naam has to be experienced to understand it via Naam Simran. I have a strong belief Naam Simran reveals God's creation to you. Now for people of other religions they have their own version of naam of course. 

But there is more to the definition of Naam which I posted in this thread which you should check out http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42331-what-is-naam-6.html


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Here is what you said in another post while praising Baba Mann Singh, you critisised Dhunda of not being a good katahvachak for the reasons known to you. You still have not claified what anti Gurmat things did Dhunda talk about?:



> Definitely changes are needed in Sikh history. One is needed right now! But it won't happen if we don't unite PERIOD. This isn't the end again. Whoever thinks Sikhi is ending soon needs a good kick to the head.
> 
> Good reputable kathavachaks are hard to find but I got that one from Baba Mann Singh. Now some kathavachaks you can't believe what they say you would obviously have to research what they say or believe them if they have a good reputation. Nowadays we have kathavachaks going on stage giving anti-gurmat teachings (ex:dhunda)



Then you admit that he said something anti Gurmat and that is why he was called to Akal Takhat. Can you give me some tangible proof of your following claim? What did he do and why was he called at Akal Takhat?




> Dear Tejwant ji, when did Baba Mann Singh teached Anti-Gurmat views? I knew he had false allegations by the media too make him look bad, but he went to Akal Takht back in 2006 and was cleared. I would be interested if you can tell me his anti-gurmat views. What is his view of Raaj according to your sources?
> 
> We gave Sant Isher Singh Rarasahib wale that title. Only god knows who are the real sants, but I'm sure Baba Isher Singh is a Sant.
> 
> ...



I thought you mentioned that Baba Mann Singh talked about Raaj. I stand corrected. Then  you talk against the media about making things up for Baba Mann Singh and under the same breath you praise the media for talking ill about Dhunda.

So what is which and which is what?

Having said that, where did you get the RAAJ thing from which is totally anti Gurmat and you emphasised on it in several of your posts?

God is an Abrahamic term not applied to Sikhi because Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity. Ik Ong Kaar's creation is all around us. We are filled with awe and wow factors of Ik Ong Kaar by just looking around and praising Sikhs' deeds. But it seems for you distributing food to the needy by the kids is not right or you have not answered my questions about it. 

Will await for that and about judging The Catholics or any other person in that case.

Who is 'WE' who gave the title to Isher Singh? Any proof of that or he concocted that himself as many do in the name of Me-ism rather than Sikhi?

What does Sant mean according to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

There is also a thread here regarding Ex- communication which is anti Gurmat and should be taken out from the SRM.

According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru:

Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi.

If we follow Gurbani, then the question of Ex-communication should never arise.

Lastly, You have to educate me about your view of Naam Simran and what it entails and its modus operandi according to Gurbani.


Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jun 30, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Raaj is anti-gurmat? Enlighten me how Satyug will come and who will lead the world into Satyug. Raaj karega Khalsa, aaki rahi na koe. Why do we say this every Sunday at gurdwara? I guess we should take it out I guess lol.

I am no praiser of babas or sants. Sants are there to bring us closer to GGS.  Sants are devotees of God who bring good to all people and bring them closer to God by doing service for example parchar. If they lead us to a different path then you should know if they are good or simply "fake". No doubt there are 16,000 fake Sants registered in Punjab but doesn't mean that there wasn't any real Sants left in the 20th century or today. 

Click on my post on that thread of what is Naam Bhai Vir Singh summarizes what Naam Simran is to me.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Raaj is anti-gurmat? Enlighten me how Satyug will come and who will lead the world into Satyug. Raaj karega Khalsa, aaki rahi na koe. Why do we say this every Sunday at gurdwara? I guess we should take it out I guess lol.
> 
> I am no praiser of babas or sants. Sants are there to bring us closer to GGS.  Sants are devotees of God who bring good to all people and bring them closer to God by doing service for example parchar. If they lead us to a different path then you should know if they are good or simply "fake". No doubt there are 16,000 fake Sants registered in Punjab but doesn't mean that there wasn't any real Sants left in the 20th century or today.
> 
> Click on my post on that thread of what is Naam Bhai Vir Singh summarizes what Naam Simran is to me.



Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, a Sikh wanting Raaj is anti Gurmat and I shared the verse with you with which you agreed. Please check it up again.

I know Bhai Vir Singh's writings very well. I wanted to know from your view point. Bhai Vir Singh was a great scholar of his time and he dedicated all his life for the Sikh Panth for which we are very grateful.

However, we are lucky to be Sikhs which is the only religion that evolves with time rather than stopped in time like other religions. 

The first pauri of Jap is its proof which clearly states that there is no absolute truth but truth is absolute,hence fluid.

So, the scholars of yesteryears played an important roles to help us understand Sikhi for which we are thankful. You must be also aware that Bhai Vir Singh was also instrumental in concocting Hemkunt which has nothing to do with the Gurmat values.

Please explain the Yugs to me in a layman's term and I am still waiting for the meaning of Khalsa from you. I know they are "real" in Hindu Mythology but how does Sikhi relate to them and please explain what do you mean about Satyug in your post?

I do not know whether you are aware of it or not, many Gurdwaras do not use that verse during Ardaas anymore.

Regarding Yugs, following is my thought about it:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/20402-satyug-the-bowl-of-cherries.html

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Sherdil (Jun 30, 2014)

To me, "Raaj karega Khalsa" means rule by the pure. It has the same meaning as the Christian proverb "The meek shall inherit the earth". Meek not meaning weak, but rather kind-hearted. The remainder is "aakhi rahai nah koi. Khuaar hoi sabh milenge, bache sharan jo hoeh". None will remain opposed. Those who are separated will unite. The devotees shall be saved. 

I believe this is what we see when we close our eyes and imagine peace on earth. It's the happy ending at the end of the movie. Everybody lives happily ever after. 

As for Sants, I think that title only caught on recently. Our historic figures went by "Baba" or "Bhai" (unless I'm mistaken). In my opinion, adding the prefix Sant to someone's name should only be done posthumously, after their life's work is analyzed. Wearing that title while alive seems a bit pretentious.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 1, 2014)

What is the definition of Raaj? Is it anti-gurmat to make a government of ours or are we born to be ruled by others?


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Raaj will happen for Sikhs. It is destined for Sikhs to happen. We Sikhs aren't going to be controlled by Hindus, Christians, or Muslims. We will have our own Raaj whether or not you see it as anti-gurmat. Sikhs have been betrayed enough in our history and to this day are still treated as second-class citizens in India. If you there is everlasting peace with Sikhs and Hindus in India better think again. 

If Sikhs don't believe in Kalyug then what are we in at the moment?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Raaj will happen for Sikhs. It is destined for Sikhs to happen. We Sikhs aren't going to be controlled by Hindus, Christians, or Muslims. We will have our own Raaj whether or not you see it as anti-gurmat. Sikhs have been betrayed enough in our history and to this day are still treated as second-class citizens in India. If you there is everlasting peace with Sikhs and Hindus in India better think again.
> 
> If Sikhs don't believe in Kalyug then what are we in at the moment?



Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Now I understand what you mean by Raaj in a tangible way/a physical place whereas Raaj according to Gurbani is within. Each one of us is The Queen and The King, thanks to our visionary Gurus.

1.What is your view about Khalsitan then?

2.Where you live now, is it a Democracy and everyone,even the minorities have their say?

3.What do you understand by Kalyug according to only Sikhi?

Please do not use any Hindu mythology in your explanations as many Katahvaachaks do and are desperately trying to impose Hindutva on the Sikhs with their fairy tales and sugar coating of some myths. Sikhs have no mythology. It is a pragmatic way of life. 

Please quote full shabads from the SGGS with your own understanding to educate me about Kalyug because the literal translations are quite misleading.

We are all here to learn which is a great thing.

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



1) My view of Khalistan isn't so clear at this point but I can tell you it can't just be Punjab. Reasons for that is Punjab is currently a terrible state going through drug menace and the most Sikhs there are politics than for Sikh interests. Also if we get Punjab then we would be between two nuclear armed countries which would put us in a bad position. First of most, we need to resolve our gurdwaras, fix panthic issues, do massive parchar, then go over to Punjab and fix the issues over there. Punjab is in total ruins in terms of Sikhi being intact there, most of the upcoming generation are moving away from Sikhi. If Khalistan happens, it will be a democracy (lets hope) and Meri and Peri symbol has to play a part. The Punj Pyare will have a role too. We can't have any more traitors within our own Panth and we have to have unity most importantly. Khalistan can wait for awhile there are issues within our own community that are holding us down.

2) It is democracy but to me secretly oligarchy. Studies have been shown over the decades how money and greed buys power over people and so on. That is my own opinion and there has been a study by it. In terms of minorities, they do get their rights but sometimes are shunned when it comes to rights.

3) Kalyug is the Age of Darkness where most people's lives are being controlled by Panj Chor and are lost on that path with connecting with the Divine and even rejecting the belief of God. But in kalyug there is some light and those are the religious who are maintaining their faith. Now in order to get to Satyug, everyone has to become enlightened. Now in my own ideal, Khalsa will lead the way eventually, but other Sikhs see Raaj as peace among different religions and unity in the world. It could be the one way or another.


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## itsmaneet (Jul 2, 2014)

More the earthly knowledge in human grow, chances are faster the believe in God (Waheguru) will vanish...

Gyan Mati Ghati Chanana
Param Agyan Andher Mitaye...


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## Rajwinder (Jul 4, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Rajwinder ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh Ji .. All i meant was that wearing Sikh items of faith without having qualities is doing no good. If these types of people are diminishing then i am not that worried about it. Crappy stuff just meant for things that people argue about related to physical appearance when their thought process is no better then garbage can.


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## aristotle (Jul 4, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> More the earthly knowledge in human grow, chances are faster the believe in God (Waheguru) will vanish...



Gurus frequently sent Sikh disciples to attain 'Worldly/Earthly' Knowledge from Nalanda, Kashi etc. Gurus appreciated attainment of any and every form of knowledge.

Sikhi is not a religion that is helpless before rationalism and inquisitiveness, in fact, the more questions you ask the more answers you'll get, and stronger your resolve in Sikhi and Akal Purakh will be.

It is not Eartly Knowledge but _Haumai_ and lack of reasoning that takes a person away from Gurmat.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 4, 2014)

Rajwinder said:


> Tejwant Singh Ji .. All i meant was that wearing Sikh items of faith without having qualities is doing no good. If these types of people are diminishing then i am not that worried about it. Crappy stuff just meant for things that people argue about related to physical appearance when their thought process is no better then garbage can.



Rajwinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree. All human beings have to act, behave and live a fruitful positive life no matter what hue,creed and faith, with or without the outer appearance. 

For example, Hasidic Jews, Hindus with tilaks with the suits on or with dhotis, women from India with Sarees or Salwaar kameez and the latter is also true for men, especially the Muslims, Mullahs with long cloaks and turbans, Catholic priests and Nuns and other members of the Christian clergy, Buddhists with their garbs and many many others.

All these people who stand out with their outer garb come under the same category as you mentioned above.

However, we Sikhs have the headstart to act in a positive way to make a difference in this world with the help of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, our tool box, our manual where the term *mind* is used at least 4987 times (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=english) in different scenarios, provided we use this tool box in the way the manual tells us to.

Having said that, in Sikhi we can only judge ourselves and must do our utmost to become better without pointing fingers at others.

Our own deeds are the best "billboards" of goodness to everyone else.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 4, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> More the earthly knowledge in human grow, chances are faster the believe in God (Waheguru) will vanish...
> 
> Gyan Mati Ghati Chanana
> Param Agyan Andher Mitaye...



itsmeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by the above. Sikh has to live the life of Miri- Piri and the former means earthly knowledge. Guru Nanak scolds the sidhs in Sidh Gosht for running away from the earthly knowledge.

Living a householder life and tackling everyday worldly problems of the family, earning an honest living to raise one's family as taught to us by Guru Nanak and by other Gurus is part and parcel of the earthly knowledge. Guru Nanak talks about the planets above us in Jap from this very earth and having a deep earthly knowledge.

Just for my own curiosity, did any katahvachak,sant, baba, derawala teach you what your mentioned in your post?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 7, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> itsmeet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh, your truly right on the part of Meri and Peri. On the part bashing on Sants and mahapurash be careful. We know there are more fake babas than there are real sevadaars of this panth. But there are some enlightening Sants that are enlightening and connect Sikhs back to GGS by doing parchar. That is their duty to do seva. If they are giving anti-gurmat views then we can analyze. It may be a title after all but there are Saints in this world. To me, the real ones, they are true GurSikhs. Don't bash anyone until you have heard their sayings online or met them in real life. If you want to continue to bash them go ahead, we know what happens according to Sukhmani Sahib. And no I don't worship any Saint or baba, but many have inspired me just like the guru's to practice the Truth and basic tenets of Sikhi. We all have our own ways.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 7, 2014)

Pardon my ignorance, no doubt there are enlightened and real sevadar on this planet but call them sant is blasphemy. By the way can you give me single pankti of sukhmani sahib or any other baani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which reveres/promotes sants, brahmgiani in human form.


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## Abneet (Jul 7, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Pardon my ignorance, no doubt there are enlightened and real sevadar on this planet but call them sant is blasphemy. By the way can you give me single pankti of sukhmani sahib or any other baani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which reveres/promotes sants, brahmgiani in human form.



Sangat gives them the title. That is the interesting part, they don't show their egoistical side of saying I am Sant so or so they just allow people to call them that as they would like. I don't know why but its we that give such people that title. 

Also, What do you mean by promoting sants in human form?


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## Luckysingh (Jul 7, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Pardon my ignorance, no doubt there are enlightened and real sevadar on this planet but call them sant is blasphemy.


 
I never knew anything about blasphemy. I thought that was ill speaking of prophets in abrahamic faiths.
I  consider my myself lower than the dust of feet of all sangat, so why should I have the right to judge such and such's title of sant or baba ?
_''Sab gobind hai, sab gobind hai...."_
_& "....Nanak parkhe ap kao ta parakh jan (the true judge is the one that judges himself)-not others!_



> By the way can you give me single pankti of sukhmani sahib or any other baani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which reveres/promotes sants, brahmgiani in human form.


 
Are you referring to the _'brahmgyani' _ashtpadhi ?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 7, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Sangat gives them the title. That is the interesting part, they don't show their egoistical side of saying I am Sant so or so they just allow people to call them that as they would like. I don't know why but its we that give such people that title.
> 
> Also, What do you mean by promoting sants in human form?



Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

What do you mean Sangat gives them the title?

Is it the same Sangat who may have taken Charan Pahul from them?

As Panj Payras and the Takhats are our only authority, then why haven't they done that? Sangat has no authority in this?

Are these Sants living the household lives as Guru Nanak taught us to do or they claim to be single, never married and abstain from having sex with many women as they tend to have many  Chelians?

The latter part is not my personal opinion. Late Baba Isher Singh was involved in many sexual escapades with many women. He lived on one side of his ashram where all the other women lived and no one was allowed there. The reason I know this is because two of them were my distant relatives.ALL of them had to take Charan Pahul from him in order to live his ashram with him as he swapped women on regular basis.,

I also met him outside his Ashram many times at my Massi’s house in South Extension in 1985 when I returned to India after 14 years. The rumours of his lechery were there long before these awful events came to light. 

Many other innocent women have been the prey of these so called Sants who have been bestowed the title by the Sangat according to you. 

There is one more person who has been calling himself Sant as of late  and now resides in India, is Jaspal Singh who had eloped with one of this students from the UK where he was married with kids with his then wife to the US. I met him in Los Angeles when I was living there. Recently, he was caught in his mansion in Delhi with many young girls. 

Sikhi needs no middlemen and only the ignorant among the Sikhs look for these kinds of charlatans because they are too lazy to study Gurbani on their own and this kind of Sangat loves their fairy tales that sweeten the Gurbani and get impressed which is a shame.

In the other post addressed to me you rightfully say that many so called sant babas are fakes but you can only decide about that on your personal level not for the Sikhi:



> On the part bashing on Sants and mahapurash be careful. We know there are more fake babas than there are real sevadaars of this panth. But there are some enlightening Sants that are enlightening and connect Sikhs back to GGS by doing parchar.



Firstly, you are not being honest here. I never bashed anyone. I just asked who gave these people the title of Sant and for what? Please, you be careful when you accuse others without any proof. 

The second part of your statement is just your personal opinion as is your opinion on meditation. Please do not make these as blanket statements for all Sikhs because many may disagree with you as many do. And mind you, disagreements are part and parcel of the learning process in Sikhi.

The next time, mention that it is your personal opinion only, which will help us all to understand your thought process.

Sikhi is not about giving or receiving titles but just being a Sikh. Gurbani teaches us that,”I am the lowest of the low”. If one has the yearnings to learn from the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, then no one would give nor receive any titles. 

Titles in Sikhi are implicit related to the gurmat deeds, not as prefixes before anyone’s name. Sikhi is all about this. Nothing more, no one else more except Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 7, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Sikhs give them such titles. They don't give the titles themselves. I have heard of Jaspal Singh and he considered Baba Isher Singh his "Guru". Now we all know that's wrong of course. There is a saying of applying dust on forehead of Saints. Now to me I don't know about that. Someone can tell me about charan pahul being taken from them.

Our panth is disorganized. We don't have a real authority yet. There are many fake Sants who are sex offenders and so on. Like I said there are very few actually Gursikhs who have conquered the panj chor and are doing seva for the panth. There are out there but they are hidden by black clouds by so fake deras and money loitering sants.

You are right we can study gurbani alone. Gurbani has so much in depth that you need a teacher that has more gyan then you to explain and help you understand whats in the GGS. That knowledge can be gained by listening to reputable kathas or getting taught in school by some teacher. We all need teachers in this case. We can't be lone wolves studying the GGS. But such Gursikhs can be our middlemen to bring us closer by giving advice or actually teach us. Not all Sikhs need such a middlemen if they are fully capable in reading and interpreting Bani themselves. We are on a path of never ending learning.

GGS does refer to seek for the company of the Saints many times...Can you explain?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 7, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Sikhs give them such titles. They don't give the titles themselves. I have heard of Jaspal Singh and he considered Baba Isher Singh his "Guru". Now we all know that's wrong of course. There is a saying of applying dust on forehead of Saints. Now to me I don't know about that. Someone can tell me about charan pahul being taken from them.
> 
> Our panth is disorganized. We don't have a real authority yet. There are many fake Sants who are sex offenders and so on. Like I said there are very few actually Gursikhs who have conquered the panj chor and are doing seva for the panth. There are out there but they are hidden by black clouds by so fake deras and money loitering sants.
> 
> ...



Abneet ji,

Please give empirical proof of the Sangat giving the title to any so called Sant otherwise it is hearsay.  If I take your reasoning a bit farther, then according to you, the sangat also has the right to take the title away. If your claim is true, then why  are many people with the title Sants  roaming around  the country raping the innocent?

You yourself admitted that there are fake Sants in your post. 

Ask yourself the question, then  who gave these rapists the title of Sants?  

Which Sikh Sangat did that as per your own claim? 

Your claim  that Sangat gives them the title of Sants seems quite contradictory and self-defeating in your own post, it seems.

Secondly, as mentioned before, only the Takhats have the right to give any title to any Sikh. The case in point is that Yogi Bhajan got the legal title of *"Siri Sahib*" from Akal Takhat.

You are confused between a SAINT and a SANT. 

The former is used in Catholicism which is bestowed by the Pope posthumously after the proofs of MIRACLES are shown, which Sikhi does not believe in.

As far as Sants in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are concerned, please post the whole Shabad with the page number and with your personal understanding of it. You may also post the literal translation of the Shabad which is often flawed and wrong. This is the reason personal understanding of the whole Shabad is must.

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 7, 2014)

> Sikhs give them such titles.





> Like I said there are very few actually Gursikhs who have conquered the panj chor





> By GurSikh I meant 'Amrit Dhari' Sikhs not self called Sikhs...



ahhh unity isn't it wonderful.....................I wonder just how many types of Sikhs there are, I always felt we were all seekers, Sikhs, students, but it does beg the question who is the sangat...


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## Seeker9 (Jul 7, 2014)

Well this is a thread that has gone off in a few interesting directions! There probably are several faiths that would say they are in fear of diminishing in this 21st Century. Personally I see a healthy attendance at my Gurdwara every week with a mix of turban / mona and I have never contemplated on my fellow Sangat's background/ motivations. I'm just proud of  our new Gurdwara that opened last year and am glad I can have  these experiences with my wife and 2 boys. We are all Mona as well.


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## Abneet (Jul 7, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Please give empirical proof of the Sangat giving the title to any so called Sant otherwise it is hearsay.  If I take your reasoning a bit farther, then according to you, the sangat also has the right to take the title away. If your claim is true, then why  are many people with the title Sants  roaming around  the country raping the innocent?
> 
> ...



Common Sikhs like ourselves give them such titles. Akal Takht gave Yogi Bhajan that title and look what he did in America making himself a so-called guru and everything. We don't teach sangat at gurdwara about the differences of a sant, brahmgyani, mahapurash, and baba.... 

I go to a Catholic School and yes I know very well your right on that a Saint has to show miraculous work. Sikhi do not believe in miracles but at certain cirumstances they do happen by the Gurus themselves.

You didn't answer my question above who is supposed to teach us the GGS? Sitting on a computer and looking at english translations isn't enough. You have to be taught by someone who has gyan of Gurbani and its depth.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 7, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Common Sikhs like ourselves give them such titles. Akal Takht gave Yogi Bhajan that title and look what he did in America making himself a so-called guru and everything. We don't teach sangat at gurdwara about the differences of a sant, brahmgyani, mahapurash, and baba....
> 
> I go to a Catholic School and yes I know very well your right on that a Saint has to show miraculous work. Sikhi do not believe in miracles but at certain cirumstances they do happen by the Gurus themselves.
> 
> You didn't answer my question above who is supposed to teach us the GGS? Sitting on a computer and looking at english translations isn't enough. You have to be taught by someone who has gyan of Gurbani and its depth.



You are still repeating the same thing again and again without any proof. It does not cut it like that. Show me the proof when sangat gave  the title Sant to anyone.

Sangat, who is looking for a teacher is giving the title of a sant to the same person? Are you serious?

The example of Yogi Bhajan from me was not for what he turned out to be but who bestows the title. You are full of contradictions. In many posts you want to obey the Akal Takhat for hukumnaamas and  for the ex- communications of people that you do not want any Sikh to talk to, and under the same breath you are degrading Akal Takhat about giving the titles. 

So which is what? Please decide  your stance.

Here is one more contradiction in your post .



> Sikhi do not believe in miracles but at certain cirumstances they do happen by the Gurus themselves.



What is this doublespeak? Under what circumstances? Please stop making things up and stick to one thing. Sikhi does not believe in miracles. Period. 

Please do not drag our Gurus in the miracle scum pond at the same time after stating the contrary first. It does not speak well for any Sikh. Either one thing is in Sikhi or not. You can not have it  both ways.

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 7, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> You are still repeating the same thing again and again without any proof. It does not cut it like that. Show me the proof when sangat gave  the title Sant to anyone.
> 
> Sangat, who is looking for a teacher is giving the title of a sant to the same person? Are you serious?
> 
> ...



So our Gurus did not perform any miracles at all according to your sayings that Sikhi do not believe in miracles period?


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 8, 2014)

I do not wish to create doubts in anyone's feelings towards Baba Ishar Singh Ji since he is no more; but, just to mention an incident that occurred in 1956 in the presence and leadership of Baba ji,may help the Sangat to focus on the Truthful essence of the Gurbani.

Baba ji along with his entourage of about 25 disciple Sikhs were visiting town of Bagha-Puranaa in 1957. One of my friend was one of the young Sewadars in that community and had great admiration for Baba Ji.

The Jathhaa, for sleeping at night, was stationed in a small school. Early hours of the next morning fire razed one of the rooms where disciples were resting. The Jathhaa, supposed to perform morning keertan in the local Gurdwara was leaving in a hurry.

The reason was that a young female devotee of the Baba Ji visited the location and wanted to see Baba ji for private session. Somehow, she was talked by a young disciple into joining couple of his colleagues and then they will help her to see Baba ji. She spent the night with those disciples and by morning she was found dead. Decision by Baba Ji was to cremate her in the very room by setting the room on fire, that was done. Local police investigation declared the woman was crazy and died during struggle to protect Babaji. Thus, Baba Ji was free to leave for next station.

My point is not to malign reputation of Baba JI, but to ask Sangat for thorough and factual search of evidence before falling for the MIRACLE PERFORMING BABAS.

Our respected Guru Sahiban lived and promulgated 'The Will/Hukam" of the Akal Purakh without any miracles.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 8, 2014)

On miracles gurbani is very clears - quoting Kabir Ji, "ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਫੁਰੀ ਤਬਕਾਹੂ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਾਜ ॥ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਹਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਉ ਮੈ ਬੋਲਤ ਹੀ ਬਡ ਲਾਜ ॥੧॥  ਕ  ੧੧੦੩

Ridhi sidhi ji kau phuri tab kaahoo sio kia kaaj. Tere kahne ki gat kis kahau mai bolat hi badd laaj. Kabir, p 1103.

In essence: If you have miraculous powers, then you will benefit yourself and not worry about others. What to comment on what you say, I feel highly ashamed even to talk about it."


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## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2014)

> You didn't answer my question above who is supposed to teach us the GGS? Sitting on a computer and looking at english translations isn't enough. You have to be taught by someone who has gyan of Gurbani and its depth.



How hard is it to try and live by the truth? The truth, which is the essence of Sikhism, waking up in the morning, being true, looking at your wife with love, not lust, eating a simple breakfast, not a huge bacon and egg fry up, driving to work within the speed limit, giving way, allowing your fellow humans to to join a queue, driving a car for yourself, not for envious glances, getting to work, treating your fellow workers with respect, doing your job, honestly, without taking shortcuts, without lying, telling the truth, charging for 5 mins if it takes 5 mins, giving people a break, being understanding,being merciful, being patient, inspiring others, bringing laughter where there is sadness, cheering people up, having a simple lunch, staying away from booze, fags, spliffs, smack, porn, keeping the mind pure, focusing it on making a difference, on spreading the light, not hiding in the darkness, going home, taking your dogs for a long walk, having a simple dinner, enjoying simple pleasures, a long walk by a stream, with your dogs darting in and out of the water, watching your wifes face as she cuddles the dogs, feeling love for them all, going home, making sure everyone is fed and happy, ringing your dad, speaking to mum,  going to bed, and falling asleep with her head on your chest, (ok thats a bit sexist, but it would not work the other way round, I have a meat head, its huge and heavy), 

How is a teacher going to help me achieve this on a daily basis? What depths are there to learn to achieve this? its not rocket science is it? Sikhism, being devoid of pointless rituals, traditions, is fairly simple, the whole point of the SGGS is that it is written so the common man can understand it without the need for a Gyani, or a Brahmin priest, to then take refuge in the words of a scoundrel is blasphemy both ways, anyone who encourages this fractured relationship between human and god is already rubbishing the wishes of our Gurus, in that the wisdom they wrote can only be accessed with help, 

Even the most simple person knows what the truth is, even the most simple person can be a Sikh, without help. In fact its easier without help, or to coin another phrase without agenda


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 8, 2014)

Very simple, 'ਏਹ ਵੈਰੀ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਭਿ ਕੀਤਿਆ ਨਹ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਮੰਦਾ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪੁਛਈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸੰਦਾ ॥ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ॥ ਸਭੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਿਐ ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੰਦਾ ॥੭॥ - transform these evils and make them your friends, you will automatically see God in all, your accounts are settled once for all and you enter into blissful state, all your doubts gets cleared and meaning of gurbani emantes itself.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 8, 2014)

who do we blame when sikh kids do keep hair, wear gatras and dummalahs and do nitnems...BUT dont know the ABC of Gurmatt ?? Many blame their parents !!! ....many simply dont know nay toehr way...they simply stick with what they know best..long hair..gatra, karras dummalhs and all that..But cant distinguish between Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh...its all fast track waheguru waheguru waheguru and endless sakhis about this mahapurahs  and that baba...


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## Abneet (Jul 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> How hard is it to try and live by the truth? The truth, which is the essence of Sikhism, waking up in the morning, being true, looking at your wife with love, not lust, eating a simple breakfast, not a huge bacon and egg fry up, driving to work within the speed limit, giving way, allowing your fellow humans to to join a queue, driving a car for yourself, not for envious glances, getting to work, treating your fellow workers with respect, doing your job, honestly, without taking shortcuts, without lying, telling the truth, charging for 5 mins if it takes 5 mins, giving people a break, being understanding,being merciful, being patient, inspiring others, bringing laughter where there is sadness, cheering people up, having a simple lunch, staying away from booze, fags, spliffs, smack, porn, keeping the mind pure, focusing it on making a difference, on spreading the light, not hiding in the darkness, going home, taking your dogs for a long walk, having a simple dinner, enjoying simple pleasures, a long walk by a stream, with your dogs darting in and out of the water, watching your wifes face as she cuddles the dogs, feeling love for them all, going home, making sure everyone is fed and happy, ringing your dad, speaking to mum,  going to bed, and falling asleep with her head on your chest, (ok thats a bit sexist, but it would not work the other way round, I have a meat head, its huge and heavy),
> 
> How is a teacher going to help me achieve this on a daily basis? What depths are there to learn to achieve this? its not rocket science is it? Sikhism, being devoid of pointless rituals, traditions, is fairly simple, the whole point of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that it is written so the common man can understand it without the need for a Gyani, or a Brahmin priest, to then take refuge in the words of a scoundrel is blasphemy both ways, anyone who encourages this fractured relationship between human and god is already rubbishing the wishes of our Gurus, in that the wisdom they wrote can only be accessed with help,
> 
> Even the most simple person knows what the truth is, even the most simple person can be a Sikh, without help. In fact its easier without help, or to coin another phrase without agenda



Surely someone can take that path that is no problem or someone who wants to learn the depths of Bani can obviously get help to understand everything what the Gurus wrote. But in your case I don't see why a Sikh can do that but our GGS is our guidance remember that.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2014)

> Surely someone can take that path that is no problem or someone who wants to learn the depths of Bani can obviously get help to understand everything what the Gurus wrote



Can you enlighten me as to what you have learned about the depths of Bani? If you could give me an example of such depths?



> But in your case I don't see why a Sikh can do that but our GGS is our guidance remember that.



I have had to read this several times, I think I understand what you mean, what your trying to say is how can one understand the depths of Bani through simple and truthful living rather than study and guidance. 

I read the SGGS every day, I do not chant it, or mumble it, I read it, over and over again, then I analyse it, then I compare several translations, then I attempt my own translation, after some time, I gain perhaps some little understanding. When I look back at my life and contemplate what I know through walking in the fire, with what essence I have gained, I can then reconcile the two together. 

Sometimes I may only manage a few lines, sometimes a whole page, sometimes I might get stuck on one line, but it is all pretty pointless if nothing is put into practice, in my very extremely humble opinion.


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## Abneet (Jul 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Can you enlighten me as to what you have learned about the depths of Bani? If you could give me an example of such depths?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would rather have a Sikh read one line and learn from it and implement it in his daily routine rather than a Sikh that reads and reads and does doesn't gain nothing from what he has read.


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