# Yogi Bhajan



## Satbinder Singh (Jun 14, 2011)

I have been watching videos on You Tube which has goreh Sikhs in America talking about Sikhism, naam, bani, japji sahib etc.

  I have found these videos really good and insightful and have learned a lot.  One guy in particular is Guruka Singh who seems to talk a lot of sense and is well versed in the GGS.

  What opinion do you guys have of this guy and the movement there ??

  I’m  just interested to see what other people think as I have also read some disturbing things on the internet regarding the Yogi, who has the name Shiri which I believe is rarely given ( I may be wrong here)

  Many thanks


S. Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2011)

Satbinder Ji..

The use of words like "seems"..( to talk a lot of sense..and is well versed..)...in your message show that you are capable of self judgement...
Dont go for the "easy" solution...ask others opinions..and then maybe.see how many "glorify"..hw many "condemn"...how many agree..how many disagree..etc etc and then make up your mind...thats NOT the right way..

GURBANI instructs us to.."AAkleen SAHIB SEVEEAH..meaning use our own God bestowed INTELLECT...to read Gurbani..understand Gurbani via vichaar..various sources..books articles etc etc..and then make a calculated judgement...
People "see" what they wnat to see..even in GURBANI...so one who beleives in myths and miracles..will "see" these in Gurbani..while another who doesnt WONT SEE these even if the TUK or shabad is the SAME in Both instances...the Nirmalas and Udasis who wrote a Teeka of SGGS called the faridkotee teeka had a Hindu Background...they see Gurbani ENDORSING all the Hindu myths and miracles and shivas and ramchanders...while Prof Sahib Singh in his SGGS Darpan read the very same Gurbani and cmae to different conclusion supported by evidence from Gurbani..
So the Bottom Line is..we make the choice as individuals...based on Guur Jis Kirpa on us individually..to be blessed with understanding...so the first thing to do is learn GURMUKHI..to connect with the GURU PERSON to PERSON...and then proceed form there..step by step...as I have been for the past 59 years..and still progressing...


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## Ishna (Jun 14, 2011)

> so the first thing to do is learn GURMUKHI..to connect with the GURU PERSON to PERSON...and then proceed form there..step by step...


 
Thank you for saying it so clearly and concisely!


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## Adi Nanaki (Jun 15, 2011)

Yogi Bhajan was given titles by the SGPC over the years for selfless service to the Dharma worldwide. These titles made his name the way it is, rather than his choice. In its entirety: Siri Singh Sahib, Bhai Sahib Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogiji. He is most remembered as simply Yogiji or SSS to Kundalini yogis and Sikhs around the world.


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

Adi Nanaki said:


> Yogi Bhajan was given titles by the SGPC over the years for selfless service to the Dharma worldwide. These titles made his name the way it is, rather than his choice. In its entirety: Siri Singh Sahib, Bhai Sahib Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogiji. He is most remembered as simply Yogiji or SSS to Kundalini yogis and Sikhs around the world.



Some thoughts. I am not his follower... and he often said he wanted no followers. When he died, or shortly before, he gave a lecture about a Tiger and Monkey. The Monkey would not leave his life long playmate the Tiger alone, pestering the sleepy tiger who was just trying to nap on a branch. Finally the monkey said: Why won't you play? Why do you growl when I torment you by pulling your tail. I thought we were friends. And the Tiger said, If you are my friend please let me sleep. It is time for me to sleep. Then Yogi Bhajan said to the sangat, It is time for me to go. I need now to sleep. Let me sleep. He was able to let go.

I don't get the impression that Yogi Bhajan ever thought of himself as more than a flawed human being. There are those among his followers who have acted in ego-mad and unscrupulous ways, almost from the start of his first ashram. He was definitely a controller. An overwhelming personality. I personally find much of what he said hard to believe.  

No one is all bad. No one is all good. But in all of that, there are real gems of wisdom in his speeches including the admonition, Be your own Guru! That is something we can all think seriously about.


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## davinderdhanjal (Jun 15, 2011)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object  classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->  I would like to read about his life story – I do not know whether he wrote an autobiography. He was a man of conviction and strong character.
  For what I have been able to gather about him – he started in India with the youth group before partition and found that the leaders of those days had double standards which he saw through.
   He got together with a number of like minded people and made a group to follow Sikhi as intended and not with coloured by political hue.
  He was a well to do person and decided that the leaders in Punjab had sold the Sikhs out saw the writing on the wall for Sikhs in Punjab. He believed that he should create teachers to spread Sikhi but out of India. I think he started in Canada and then when to the States. He was very successful and created about 20,000 Sikhs in New Mexico USA.

  I briefly recall a story that he recited about his turn to make langer, and as he was ‘busy’ he sent all the groceries to the camp and hoped someone would make the food and people could eat.
  When he showed up at the camp he was asked about the langer – and he said that he had sent the necessary. The team told him that he was already late and had not fulfilled his duty. He had to bring the stuff himself and cook it and serve it. 
  He thus had to then go and do all that again bring the groceries cook and serve. Only then did the rest eat and let him off.
  One of complaints was that he could not get the people to get up at Amritwela and have a cold shower before Nitnem!
  It was his strength that made him thwart attacks on his personality but I do not see if anyone attacked his principles that made him a Gursikh.
  He has a lot of Videos on You Tube and some speeches on radio were also presented and worth listening to.
  It is a personality like him with his dedication and commitment we need in Sikh leadership today.


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## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

I really like Guruka Singh's videos!  I love his happy-go-lucky attitude.  Could listen to him all day.  I can understand what he says and relate to him.  It took me a while before I learned he's the Yogi's successor!

I don't know much about Yogi Bhajan though.  I recently read he would say about ladies and facial hair that it was more important to maintain "grace" than it was to maintain facial hair.  Not that I want to start a discussion about that, just putting forward something I've heard about his teaching which might be relevant to this discussion about his teachings and application of Sikhism.


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

There is an extensive discussion here too
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sects-groups-cults/19093-yogi-bhajan-and-3ho.html

As spnadmin ji says no-one is all good and no-one is all bad. Personally I find some of the teachings from the 3HO camp to be very good whereas others are questionnable according to Gurbani. Best to read Gurbani and make your own decision about what to accept and what to reject. 3HO have done a great job in raising the profile of Sikhi but they have also popularised some unrelated things (such as kundalini yoga). Take the good and leave behind the bad. Focus on SGGS


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## Satbinder Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I really like Guruka Singh's videos! I love his happy-go-lucky attitude. Could listen to him all day. I can understand what he says and relate to him. It took me a while before I learned he's the Yogi's successor!
> 
> I don't know much about Yogi Bhajan though. I recently read he would say about ladies and facial hair that it was more important to maintain "grace" than it was to maintain facial hair. Not that I want to start a discussion about that, just putting forward something I've heard about his teaching which might be relevant to this discussion about his teachings and application of Sikhism.


 
Thanks all for the comments, 
Ishna I agree with you about Guruka Singh he talks sense in a easy to understand way.
Also I saw a YouTube  laidies talking about beards, keepsing hair, but had obviously plucked there eyebrows.

I will get back to all with replies to comments


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## Satbinder Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> There is an extensive discussion here too
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sects-groups-cults/19093-yogi-bhajan-and-3ho.html
> 
> As spnadmin ji says no-one is all good and no-one is all bad. Personally I find some of the teachings from the 3HO camp to be very good whereas others are questionnable according to Gurbani. Best to read Gurbani and make your own decision about what to accept and what to reject. 3HO have done a great job in raising the profile of Sikhi but they have also popularised some unrelated things (such as kundalini yoga). Take the good and leave behind the bad. Focus on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


 

I would say that makes the most sense


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## Adi Nanaki (Jun 15, 2011)

Guruka Singh is a fine Sikh gentleman sevadar in the New Mexico community, but he is not Yogi Bhajan's successor. Yogii Bhajan encouraged everyone to be ten times greater than him. He portrayed greatness as being at the base of an upside down triangle, uncomplainingly supporting everyone. This is how we must all be in consciousness to bring in the new age, where everyone will have Christ consciousness.


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## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

My humble apologies, Adi ji. I thought I had read just the other week on the 3HO website that he was Yogi Bhajan's successor but I just double checked and no, it does not say that. Thank you for correcting my error, ji.


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## Adi Nanaki (Jun 15, 2011)

It is okay. We all love Guruka Singh dearly. He is very wise. Yet, he told me not to expect other people to be able to have my sublime experiences, which are universal. I will be sharing one such revelation, the Golden Temple meditation, at the upcoming International Summer Solstice celebration in New Mexico, where, at 7am on the first morning, we will meditatively bring the healing Golden Temple and Amrit Sarovar energies to bless the land and all who come.


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## davinderdhanjal (Jun 15, 2011)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->             I took the tour of the link supplied by Jasleen Ji and other information on site – a lot there!
  A human cannot please all – even Guru Nanak could not make all see his point of view.
  I choose not to ‘rake muck’ it is not going to help but will add my comments that I was going to write modified by other arguments.
  Yoga was used by YB to direct people away from drugs etc. It is odd that Sikhi is very simple religion but people need instant results and something tangible so they prefer devas, jots and other Brahamincal followings – from that point of view I guess Yoga is not a bad practice.
  Our Gurus did not say do not believe in Vedas, Puranas or Tantras (they just do not have any religious content) but there is a lot in them as information and knowledge. Yoga is one of them (not my thing) but working your way up to Puranas and Vedas – there is Science, Mathematics, Technology, and Medicine – I am not sure whether YB could have interested people in those subjects as easily as Yoga.
  Some people have commented about lack of Sikhi content in YB lectures etc. I do not find that – he knew his stuff and put it over well.
  I also believe that if his following was as large and a few people were displeased (I do not condone anti Sikh principles – one needs to make a project to prove it one way or the other) I would possibly consider that to be one sided view.


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## jananavan (Jun 16, 2011)

"Yogi Bhajan was given titles by the SGPC over the years for selfless service to the Dharma worldwide."

I think this should raise serious concern amongst the sangat as the actions of SGPC show that there is plenty of corruption, politics,business and activity that should be considered treacherous against sikhi and the sangat. 

As far as Yogi Bajan i see the exact same thing that i see in the panjab politics of the sants,babas,akal taktht jathedars, gurus etc. Politics, religion,government support, money,business,scandals,rape alligations, immoral activity etc.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

IN GURMATT its always said....ACCEPT whatever is as per GURMATT..and REJECT the rest.
Thus the ONUS is on the SANGAT...the Listeners...the readers.. THE audience !!
NO ONE..not Bhai Kahn Singh nabha..not Bhai Vir Singh..Not Bhai Kala Afghana..Not Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh ji of AKJ who incidentally IS the One and ONLY SIKH ever honoured by ALL FIVE TAKHATS !!....not Bhai Prof Darshan Singh Khalsa..etc etc etc..ONLY GURU Kartaar..Waheguru is ABHULL..everyone else makes and has made mistakes and can be wrong...on some things....
Its expected of us..indeed its our RESPONSIBILITY to the GURU/GURMATT to listen to all, weigh the arguments..and make a calculated "judgement" of what to accept and what to reject..as per OUR own understanding of Gurmatt/Gurbani... BHED CHAAL..BLIND FAITH...BLINDLY FOLLOWING and accepting as Total TRUTH of anyone else is NOT GURMATT.


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## soon2bkaur (Jun 23, 2011)

I have mixed feelings about him. Most of the American Sikhs on the internet always bring up Kundilini yoga and the 3HO. As for me, I want to learn the REAL Sikhism, the more traditional. Based on what I have read, some see him as a great man, some see him as a cult leader. For instance, read here:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/24293/yogi-bhajan-3ho

So, just not sure....


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## Ishna (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm not sure you can classify one kind of Sikhism as "real" as that implies all others are "false".

To classify one kind as traditional and another as whatever it is (ie. 3HO) I think is more reasonable.


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## soon2bkaur (Jun 23, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I'm not sure you can classify one kind of Sikhism as "real" as that implies all others are "false".
> 
> To classify one kind as traditional and another as whatever it is (ie. 3HO) I think is more reasonable.



I guess I said the wrong thing... it isn't that there are "false" teachings, just that the 3HO isn't my bag.... and yes, that is a lot more reasonable! Thanks for the response!:grinningkudi:


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## Ishna (Jun 23, 2011)

Soon2bekaur bhenji, the only reason it stood out to me is that I've thought exactly the same thing and pulled myself up on it!!  kudihug


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## spnadmin (Jun 24, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I'm not sure you can classify one kind of Sikhism as "real" as that implies all others are "false".
> 
> To classify one kind as traditional and another as whatever it is (ie. 3HO) I think is more reasonable.




ishna ji

Forgive me for being technical on this point. "Traditional" Sikhism has many meanings depending on whom we refer to. "Traditional" Sikhs more often than not is taken to mean "puratan" Sikhs. The puratan Sikhs were a varied group, and wrote rehats that are often startling in the way they contradict Gurbani. The "puratan" Sikhs of old, were influential following the collapse of the raj of Ranjit Singh and through the period of the British raj. These Sikhs included many groups who assimilated Hindu practices and beliefs. Following into the mid to late 19th Century a group title Singh Saba formed, with the objective to redefine Sikhs as distinct from Hindus, and to remove Vedantic influences. You guessed it! As time wore on Singh Saba itself, in order to create conditions for consensus among many different groupings of Sikhs, became more tolerant of Vedantic beliefs and of Hindu practices and influences. Thus we have for example, arti performed at Hazoor Sahib, and a jathedar who practices celibacy and may never leave Hazoor Sahib, nor speak a word while he is residence at Hazoor Sahib. Hazoori Sikhi is considered "puratan."

Traditional Sikhs may also refer to the early "traditions" or sampardaya which were off-shoots of Sikhi from its beginnings: Udassis, Nirmalas, Seva panthis. The first 2 "traditions" respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but give shared importance to the Vedas. They retain not only Hindu practices, but theology. In the case of Seva panthis, shared importance is given to the Quran. 

I think what you mean by "traditional" is hard to define. At the end of the 19th Century and the dawn of the 20th Century, a group called Chief Khalsa Diwan was formed with the goal of "purifying" Sikhism. But the times were politically chaotic, and independence for India was on the horizon. If Sikhs were to find strength in numbers, coalitions were needed. So Chief Khalsa Diwan made compromises with the SinghSaba elements that had retained patterns of Hindu belief and worship. The Sikh Rehat Maryada was written under CKD's sponsorship. But it was not pure enough for some. Breaking away from Chief Khalsa Diwan was Panch Khalsa Diwan....also claiming to be "traditional" and pure. PKD was staunch and uncompromising. Today PKD is considered the forerunner both of Akaali Kirtan Jatha (AKJ), and a kind of bare bones Sikhi, often referred to as Lehr Khalsa... no Vedantic beliefs, no Hindu practices, strict compliance with the Sikh Rehat Maryada. With Indian Independence, the AKJ came to prominence. With the death of Jarnail Singh Bindhranwale Damdami Takht came to prominence. These two groups have rehats separate from the Sikh Rehat Maryada. They consider themselves traditional. Yet, Damdami Takht gives equal status to Dasam Granth  with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sarbloh Granth is dear to the Nihangs. Both Sarbloh Granth and Dasam Granth are heavily laced with Vedanctic belief and philosophy. 

I have not myself been able to define the traditional Sikhi that you have identified. It may not be possible. Guru Nanak has said, There is one Sikhi....but I do not think he was talking about alignments, rehats, or adherence to sectarian beliefs when he said that. The story of 3HO, or more accurately, Sikh Dharma in the Western Hemisphere, demonstrates the same assimilation of beliefs that have Hindu roots. And for the sake of consensus within the panth the SGPC embraced Yogi Bhajan, but only after considerable internal political strife in the early 1980's. History repeats itself.

If I am wrong on any specifics or have left anything out, surely a forum member with PKD leanings will correct me.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 24, 2011)

The present SRM known as SGPC/Akal Takhat approved Panth Parvanit (approved) is 99.9% PKD Rehat Maryada of Teja Singh Bhasaurr..the founder of PKD who was staunch friend of Bhai Sahib bhai randhir Singh Ji founder of the *Akhand *Kirtani Jatha (the word is *AKHAND* becasue they do continous KIRTAN a unique AKJ style of kirtan)..Bhai randhor Singh broke off from Teja Singh when the latter was EXCOMMUNICATED bY Akal takhat. After that the PKD rapidly declined - In Punjab as well as Overseas among the SikhDiaspora. ( Now in total reversal..an "excommunication" from Akal takhat is a sign of increased reverence among sikhs esp sikhs diaspora !!..whosoever the AT excommunicates receives Gold Medals and more satikaar from the Sikh Sangats..ala Ragi Darshan Singh Ji Bhai Kala Afghana..etc.....this shows the AT is out of touch with reality..


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## Ishna (Jun 24, 2011)

SPNadmin ji

Touche`, and good point.  I'll admit it, I have no idea what I mean when I say "traditional" Sikhi.  I guess it's some kind of romantic image in my mind that whatever Sikhi is practiced in Amritsar is the more accurate one.  But, as with all things, it's never that easy.  I seem to have this pre-conceived idea that the oldest or the original way of doing things has to be correct, so any modern interpretation has to be inaccurate in some way.  I wonder if this is the same notion Kaur2be has?

A funny story: my step-father was visiting me and my husband recently, and I've just put a painting of a Singhni with dastaar on my lounge-room wall, and he goes "why are you always interested in the oldest religions?"  and I'm like, "er, technically Sikhi is only around 500 years old".  lol

Anyway SPNadmin ji, thank you a thousand times for the concise history of different groups!  I've only just started reading about AKJ within the last two days so I wonder if you are some sort of mind reader, hehe.


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## Ishna (Jun 24, 2011)

And here's a question which I fear has no answer... All these groups have names... What are the "regular" Sikhs called? The ones who simply follow SGPC rehat maryada, do their ninem, try earn honest, share, remember Waheguru Ji, contemplate Guruji's bani, and live regular householder lives. Dare I say, the majority of us here! Where do we fit?


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## kds1980 (Jun 24, 2011)

Ishna said:


> And here's a question which I fear has no answer... All these groups have names... What are the "regular" Sikhs called? The ones who simply follow SGPC rehat maryada, do their ninem, try earn honest, share, remember Waheguru Ji, contemplate Guruji's bani, and live regular householder lives. Dare I say, the majority of us here! Where do we fit?



At present there is no defination of what is regular sikh.Sikhism is now so severly divided that people have their own defination of sikh.The urban Sikhs of India are different from Rural sikhs.NRI sikhs are different from rural or urban sikhs


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## soon2bkaur (Jun 24, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> ishna ji
> I have not myself been able to define the traditional Sikhi that you have identified. It may not be possible. Guru Nanak has said, There is one Sikhi....but I do not think he was talking about alignments, rehats, or adherence to sectarian beliefs when he said that. The story of 3HO, or more accurately, Sikh Dharma in the Western Hemisphere, demonstrates the same assimilation of beliefs that have Hindu roots. And for the sake of consensus within the panth the SGPC embraced Yogi Bhajan, but only after considerable internal political strife in the early 1980's. History repeats itself..


 
Pardon my extreme ignorance, what is the SGPC??? 
*blushing*


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## spnadmin (Jun 24, 2011)

> Touche`, and good point. I'll admit it, I have no idea what I mean when I say "traditional" Sikhi. I guess it's some kind of romantic image in my mind that whatever Sikhi is practiced in Amritsar is the more accurate one. But, as with all things, it's never that easy. I seem to have this pre-conceived idea that the oldest or the original way of doing things has to be correct, so any modern interpretation has to be inaccurate in some way. I wonder if this is the same notion Kaur2be has?
> 
> 
> A funny story: my step-father was visiting me and my husband recently, and I've just put a painting of a Singhni with dastaar on my lounge-room wall, and he goes "why are you always interested in the oldest religions?" and I'm like, "er, technically Sikhi is only around 500 years old".
> ...



Ishna ji No "Touche" please! kudihug  I was not criticizing or correcting. I was commiserating in a way....because figuring out the meaning, or the right word, for "traditional" has been a long term question for me too. Who is traditional? Who is pure Sikh?

There is a really good book about this...short too...written by a Hindu who carries no baggage about this subject. He is a political scientist and puts the entire course of the story in the context of political conditions surrounding each generation of Sikhs who were themselves struggling with identity. Per usual, it will take me some time to find the reference. 

Sikh identity seems always to have been a matter of struggling out of cultural and political surroundings, even as far back as the brother of Guru Nanak, Sri Chand, and the beginning of the Udassis sect. 

I love the story about your father-in-law. In a way he is right. Sikhi is young, but to get what is going on, one has to go all the way back to 1200 AD...or so it seems to me. Anyway I also struggle.... but struggle lightly. One day I decided the only way was for me to decide where I stood on all of this, and where to draw the line.  For ME the line is the SRM. I decided to take it easy on everyone else. Otherwise, each ME will be in the business of deciding who is a Sikh based on the personal opinion of one person....the one and only ME.


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## spnadmin (Jun 24, 2011)

soon2bkaur said:


> Pardon my extreme ignorance, what is the SGPC???
> *blushing*



No no no! It is not ignorance. You are just opening the book at page 1. SGPC stands for Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, http://www.sgpc.net/

an elected group of Sikhs in Amritsar who under Indian Law manage a number of Gurdwaras in Punjab and Haryana. Of late SGPC has assumed other powers. This has caused immense controversy in about the last 10 years. The SGPC itself has a tumultuous history.


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## spnadmin (Jun 24, 2011)

Ishna said:


> And here's a question which I fear has no answer... All these groups have names... What are the "regular" Sikhs called? The ones who simply follow SGPC rehat maryada, do their ninem, try earn honest, share, remember Waheguru Ji, contemplate Guruji's bani, and live regular householder lives. Dare I say, the majority of us here! Where do we fit?



I would say that "regular" Sikhs are Sikhs who work very hard to peel back to the basic message of Guru Nanak.


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## spnadmin (Jun 26, 2011)

Ishna and soon2bkaur

This is the reference I spoke of a few posts back. "Sikhism and Indian Civilization edited by R.J. Pruthi. See Chapter 4, by Neil Barrier, "Sikh Tradition and Competing Ideology,"  at this link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kx...6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=panch khalsa diwan&f=false

You may agree that it helps to put todays controversies over belief and practice into understandable language. And it pulls things together. I have uploaded the chapter's last paragraphs. They give a flavor of the entire essay.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 27, 2011)

Sikhi..is NOT just "500" years old....just as "I" am not just 62 (born as jarnail Singh in 1949)!!my DNA goes back along long way back..... Sikhi goes back...back...BACK..when THE "WORD" was with GOD..and GOD was with .."The Word"....whe it was ALL  ARBAD NARBAD...DHUNDOOKAARA...deep silence..darkness....nothing except HIM seated in samadhee...contemplating upon Himslef...Eons upon Eons passed...KEETA PASAAAO EKO KAVAAAO...a split second..and it came into MOTION..and has been ever since !! Continous motion !! (Arbad is a number of zeroes at value of N(arbad)...never ending zeroes...!! SHABAD...THE WORD is SIKHI...fastforward to 10th century..Bhagats Namdev...12th century..Sheikh farid..and then further..Bhagat Kabir Ji..Guru nanak Ji..1708 GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI...and the KHALSA...the ever RENEWING FORCE that will be in continous motion for ever...that is SIKHI/GURMATT that Guru nanak ji painted in the EK Oangkaar symbol symbosis of alphabet+Number..until then GOD was always in ALPHABETS !! as Bhagwaan, Vishnu, brahma, Yasudev, Yahveh. GOD, whatever..always in ALPHABETS..Guru nanak ji BROKE with that Tradition and came up with this unique and Only one of its kind  alphanumeric Name ( ** DONT computer experts always advise us to design an ALPHANUMERIC  **Password...that would be much SAFER and more unbreakable than a simple alphabetical or numerical one ??....well well well GURU NANAK JI sahib gave us the STRONGEST and most unbreakable PASSWORD YET to connect to HIM !! 500 years ago ha ha..until then..the best the Jews could do was..advise to keep YAHWEH "secret" (no saying it aloud..this was the usual advise when passwords first came out...dont write it down..dont tell anyone else..blah blah..same advise being bandied about by cults like the radhasomis..)..Guur nanak ji came out with NO SECRETS..public declared Naam !!).
What is happening to Sikhism today is a carbon copy of what happened to Christianity...at one time the closest christianity to christ was in Rome...over time Rome became contaminated..and vatican became sick..and now we ahve modern christianity with about 1000 sects...ranging form Mormons to seventh day advetists and protestants..and what not...today in the Sikh Context...sgpc/Amritsar is vatican - sick and diseased....and we have cults like radhasoamis, namdharees, nirnakarees, sirsa babas, dhadrianwallahs, rarrehwallahs nanaksariahs, taksaals..etc etc..each with its own CULTISH LEADERS and practsises...all with a little bt of genuine sikhi..BUT NONE with ALL of it...the Takhats are sick..the sgpc is sick..the delhi dgmc is sick...its just the degree of sickness that is different...NOT ONE IS 100% HEALTHY !!..except on an INDIVIDUAL BASIS....on this individual palne there are plenty of sikhs who are healthy wealthy  and wise....as well as sickly, poor and plain STUPID. LITMUS TEST to check out whcih is which...GURBANI of SGGS..see how much is followed..and adhered to in daily life !! The More adherence..the healthier the sikh...


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## Ishna (Jun 27, 2011)

SPNadmin ji, that was an awesome link!  A thousand thank yous for sharing it!  It is that depth of history which I lack because I just don't know where to look and what to search for.  peacesignkaur


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## Ishna (Jun 27, 2011)

Gyani ji, if I'm understanding you correctly, it is ok to say the individual now bears the majority of responsibility to guide him/herself through Sikhi by following SGGS, but what about becoming amritdhari, and sangat?  You can't have these two institutions without some kind of governance to establish common understanding... If it was up to SGGS then we wouldn't have a khande di pahul (not sure I spelt that right) ceremony for becoming amritdhari because from what I can gather from my limited understanding of Gurbani is that this all happens internally in your own internal amrit fountain which springs straight from the individual's connection to Naam.

But sangat is such a prominent part of Sikhi, it's hard to reconcile the individual spiritual path with the communal one since we're all too individual to have broad and lasting consensus on things!

I'm doing a very poor job of explaining this.


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2011)

Ishna ji

The problem you are identifying is at the crux of yet another false dichotomy in Sikhi, which you are resonating with. I respect you for taking the time to reflect with us on this.  

*Some would have us believe we are urged to be "sant" through 9 Gurus *


> the individual now bears the majority of responsibility to guide him/herself through Sikhi by following Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,



*or urged to be a warrior and sipahi by the 10th Guru Gobind Singh.* 



> If it was up to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then we wouldn't have a khande di pahul (not sure I spelt that right) ceremony for becoming amritdhari



Bur he was contending  to the political brutality faced in his times. It was a matter of panthic survival. It is easy to forget we are supposed to internalize the idea of sant/sipahi, to be both saint and soldier. This idea crystalized with Guru Hargobind, but is found in the bani of Guru Nanak. So it looks as if there is a problem, and we are stuck, but we are not. And we will pull through it in one form or another. 

Sikhism took form as a visible religious identity as early as Guru Angad. I will get back to you.


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