# Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?



## Shanger (Jan 23, 2011)

Basically I'm asking what reasons you have for believing in Sikhi. 

I ask this because at the moment I'm reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I am near the beginning and so far I have not read anything that convinces me, that could change though I have much to read.

I just want to know from people who consider themselves sikh now, what is it in GGSJ that makes you so sure that Sikhi is the true religion? 

For example muslims will usually say stuff like, "the quran speaks about the stages of embyology, which was discovered much later by science proving it was from god as no one could have known it at the time" etc When trying to explain why their religion is true and from god etc. 

(For the record Im not a muslim and I think their religion is heavily flawed including the parts on embryology)

I haven't been able to find much from searching around on the main arguments pro sikhism (other than moral/ethical reasons e.g. equality), maybe because in general sikhs don't try to actively convert lots of people. So I am hoping you guys can share your thoughts.


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## Ishna (Jan 23, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji

This is my personal response to you from my experiences to date.  Others may have different perspectives.

It almost sounds like you're looking for a) someone to convert you and b) proof of God.

The only true religion is the one which makes you live truthfully, in accordance with Hukam, and helps you to realise God.

You're looking with your eyes and your analytical mind (not that there's anything wrong with having an analytical mind) at Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and saying "show me".  You need to read the Gurbani's poetry and feel it on a deeper, spiritual level, which means feeling things you might not recognise and exploring without a critical mind.  The critical mind and the analysis come later.

No one can prove anything to you (not even God) if you're not a) openminded and open hearted enough to receive the message being sent, and b) blessed with Grace.  Then it doesn't have to be proven to you, you don't need to be convinced, you will just KNOW.

I could quote my favourite shabads all day, but if you're going to read them looking for proof with your eyes they will all be in vain.

Ask yourself this question, Shanger, what are you looking for?  Know that no proof will ever be enough until you're ready to explore with your heart.  Damn that sounds so cheezy.

Ishna


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## Ishna (Jan 23, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Oh, any my personal reasons for "believing in Sikhi" (not sure that's the right term), is because of the wonderful feelings of peace, inspiration, courage and total mind-blowing awe I feel when I read Gurbani. It doesn't happen all the time. There are a lot of parts of Gurbani I don't understand yet. But the parts I do understand, I just FEEL and KNOW it's right. Intuitively.

It's like... I know I like strawberry because I've tasted it and it tastes good to me. You're looking at the strawberry and saying "prove to me it tastes good". You're not going to know until you take a bite yourself. And even then, if psychologically you're determined NOT to like the strawberry, you'll feel the seeds in it, it will taste too tart, it will trigger your gag reflex and you'll say "see, it tastes crap!".

The other reasons are mundane: Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a rule book or a history book based on one particular age. It is timeless poetry. There are parts with historical references but ultimately, the message is timeless. 

Ishna


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## Shanger (Jan 23, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Ishna said:


> Shanger ji
> 
> This is my personal response to you from my experiences to date.  Others may have different perspectives.
> 
> ...


What I am trying to say is that if GGSJ is from god, then it is not unreasonable to expect it to contain some sort of information that shows that is it genuinely from god, do you see my point?

I will read any shabads you quote as long as you explain why it is something that not just any old human could have wrote. 

Thanks for reply
No disrespect intended but saying that 


Ishna said:


> Oh, any my personal reasons for "believing in Sikhi" (not sure that's the right term), is because of the wonderful feelings of peace, inspiration, courage and total mind-blowing awe I feel when I read Gurbani. It doesn't happen all the time. There are a lot of parts of Gurbani I don't understand yet. But the parts I do understand, I just FEEL and KNOW it's right. Intuitively.
> 
> It's like... I know I like strawberry because I've tasted it and it tastes good to me. You're looking at the strawberry and saying "prove to me it tastes good". You're not going to know until you take a bite yourself. And even then, if psychologically you're determined NOT to like the strawberry, you'll feel the seeds in it, it will taste too tart, it will trigger your gag reflex and you'll say "see, it tastes crap!".
> 
> ...



What I then would like to ask is what makes you get those feelings? 

& could you experience the same feelings from other text written by an ordinary person? If the answer to the 2nd question is no, I am guessing it is because GGSJ is authentic/special in that it is from god, so I'd like to ask what makes it special? 

No disrespect intended but from my reading so far, I find myself thinking "I get the point God is almighty/great, we cannot possibly understand him etc, cut to the chase". I expect there will be some good lessons and wise words but I cannot accept it as being from God without something extraordinary. 

I ask for special proof because without it, how do you know the GGSJ was not just written by intelligent or misguided humans who wanted to form a cult? (I understand sikhi is very tolerant compared to other religions but the point still stands). 


Also I dont think you can use the analogy of a strawberry, taste is subjective for one reason. A better comparison would be me saying prove to me a strawberry grows from a seed, and you showing me the stages from the plant seed etc.  Like here I am asking for reasons why GGSJ is from god, and requesting text which shows that it is. I will not go out of my way to read any shabads in a biased way. 

If I used your logic i would read any religious book and sit back and wait for feelings of awesomeness. 


& Thanks for your answers so far


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## jnanavan (Jan 23, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> what is it in GGSJ that makes you so sure that Sikhi is the true religion?


 
I believe here is youre major flaw. It sounds like to me that you are approaching sikhi which is an EASTERN religion from a very WESTERN religious standpoint. You are not going to find ANY indian religion(hindu, sikh, buddhist, jain etc) which CLAIMS to be "the true" religion. This sort of thinking comes from the ABRAHAMIC religions. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are a MIX/MASH or previous/ancient, middle eastern cults/traditions . The messages in all 3 abrahamic texts many times goes against reason, logic and common sense and is full of inconsistencis and contradiction. All the research i have done AND my PERSONAL experience has lead me to believe that all 3 religions are false and where created as a tool to control people. This is why you find these 3 religions constantly claming to be the "TRUE" word of god or the "TRUE" path as all 3 compete for more political power in numbers. 

In indian religions you DONT find this claim. This sort of narrow minded thinking just dosent fit in with indian religions(to the most part). So you are not going to find ANYTHING in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is going to give you "evidence" that sikhi is THE religion or THE religions of GOD. 

Guru Nanak and the 10 masters did not intend to bring the TRUE religion of GOD or the TRUE path to the world for the fact that there is NO such thing. Knowledge appears spontaneously throught the ages only to be LOST then re-appears again when the time is proper. What we are going through right NOW has happened before thousands of times and will continue to happen. The universe/god/existence is circular in nature and very abstract, you are trying to understand existence in a very linear analitycal way. The 10 masters manifested on earth to deliver to humanity the "New way of living in Kali Yuga(dark age)". Therefore in GGS you will find "sublime and timeless poetry" which will HELP a sikh(learner/diciple) on the spiritual path live through these times. 

Shanger, in the east GOD is not a man, master or person. God is a harmony, a force, a energy, existence, a very ABSTRACT thing. More of  a process then a specific thing. I HIGHLY recommend you watch THE MATRIX 2. The whole movie is about the circular nature of the universe and neo even meets "GOD". Listen to "the creater" speak, listen to the "marovingian" speak, notice HOW the "key maker" dies and his last statement. Notice how zion and the whole war with machines is simply a process which had happened 5 times before(circular nature of reality).


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## Ishna (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji

I will try again to explain my reasoning, from my personal perspective, which may differ from other people's experiences.  I am still learning, and I've got a very, very long way to go before getting even close to the level of others here.



Shanger said:


> What I am trying to say is that if GGSJ is from god, then it is not unreasonable to expect it to contain some sort of information that shows that is it genuinely from god, do you see my point?
> 
> I will read any shabads you quote as long as you explain why it is something that not just any old human could have wrote.



Well, it's not from God exactly.  It was written by humans who had a very, very good insight to spirituality, logic and truth.  Their light shone brighter than others, but they were not God in a literal, personified sense.  They taught how to live good, honest lives.  Work hard, share your bounty, live truthfully, have faith and try at all times to be mindful of the One Universal Creative Force and the natural course of events.  Don't try to fight it, find the flow and go with it.  Arg, hard to explain, losing coherency, sorry.

*You said in your first post that the Quran talks about embyology (no idea what that is) which they couldn't have known about at the time.  Why isn't that proof enough for you to follow Islam?  What kind, and how much, proof do you need?  *Without faith and an open mind one is bound to challenge spirituality.



Shanger said:


> What I then would like to ask is what makes you get those feelings?
> 
> & could you experience the same feelings from other text written by an ordinary person? If the answer to the 2nd question is no, I am guessing it is because GGSJ is authentic/special in that it is from god, so I'd like to ask what makes it special?



The poetry is what makes me get those feelings.  I read it, and recognise truth in the words put in such a beautiful form.

I get the same feeling from other authors, like Khalil Gibran.

I get the same feeling when I read about NASA projects and look at awesome photos of outer space and go "wow... we will never know the extent of this Creation... how much more there is that we can't even SEE".

I get the same feeling when I hear about hero stories, people risking their lives to save others.  I actually got the same feeling recently when they were interviewing a man on the radio about how he was trying to save a mother and her two sons from drowning in a flooded river and he was only able to save one son.  The other boy had said "take my brother first" and by the time they got the boy to the bank his mum and brother were washed away.  

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is special to me because I see it as containing so much wisdom and beauty and truth and it is like I'm the strings of the violin and it's the bow.  No other religious text is as completely beautiful, in my humble opinion.  There are parts of most religious texts which are beautiful and do contain truth.  But Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contains the most chocolate in the prettiest wrapper, I think.  icecreamkudi



Shanger said:


> No disrespect intended but from my reading so far, I find myself thinking "I get the point God is almighty/great, we cannot possibly understand him etc, cut to the chase". I expect there will be some good lessons and wise words but I cannot accept it as being from God without something extraordinary.



See my question re Quran above.



Shanger said:


> I ask for special proof because without it, how do you know the GGSJ was not just written by intelligent or misguided humans who wanted to form a cult? (I understand sikhi is very tolerant compared to other religions but the point still stands).



Hopefully other Sikhs won't hit me here, and I say this with all due respect and with great love and appreciation for all 10 Gurus, but does it really matter if the person who wrote it was a nutter on a bender (and I'm in NO WAY saying any of the Gurus were nutters on benders!!)?  If it looks like truth, and it smells like truth, then it's truth against my measure.



Shanger said:


> Also I dont think you can use the analogy of a strawberry, taste is subjective for one reason. A better comparison would be me saying prove to me a strawberry grows from a seed, and you showing me the stages from the plant seed etc.  Like here I am asking for reasons why GGSJ is from god, and requesting text which shows that it is. I will not go out of my way to read any shabads in a biased way.



Ah, but religion/spirituality is also subjective.  Only YOU can experience it, just like only YOU can taste the strawberry and come to your own conclusion about the taste of it.  You can't SEE spiritual fulfillment with your eyes like you can measure the growth of a strawberry from a seed.  You can look at the history of Sikhs and see Guru Tegh Bahadur die for the right of Hindus to practice their religion.



Shanger said:


> If I used your logic i would read any religious book and sit back and wait for feelings of awesomeness.



Well, that's the idea.  If you can find the religious book which fills you with awe, inspiration, truth and motivates you to live as an honest, productive individual who stands up for the just cause, then go for it!

It just so happens that lots of Sikhs get all that from their religion and their scripture.

I await your response to my post and in particular, my questions, please.

In good faith and with copious amounts of Chardi Kala,
Ishna


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

my two cents on "embryology"...
Any one who has access to aborted foetuses in various stages of its growth..would be an expert in "embryology".
Just a week or so..an aborted foetus is..a lump of blood..
after that each week..adds to its shape/mass...
a fully developed foetus looks liek a baby...
I have met totally illiterate farmers in Punjab who "know" all about cows and goats...and how their embroys look like at various stages...nothing much actually..a "foetus/embryo" is developed Right here on earth inside a living woman....not like its made on Mars out of sight of man...and IF one has access to many women in different stages of development..its easy to be an embryologist expert.

Compare this to "knolwedge" about the Billions of Suns, Moons, Planet, stars galaxies..etc etc and the SUN being the Centre of the Solar System and NOT THE EARTH which the "god's books say it is...NO Man could have this "knowledge" as its scope is beyond this earth/living beings on Earth. Since the "gods" books were proved wrong by galileo and Science...that one thing is sufficient proof that its mans limited knowledge and not god's.

My 2 cents worth


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



spnadmin said:


> Shanger ji
> 
> IMHO you are the one and only forum member in my limited experience who has asked questions born from doubt,  like these,  from the heart. To me your questions seem to be honest and thoughtful. You are not trying to get the better of those who are replying to you. You are accepting the burden of your own questions and questioning nature. Many times I see the responsibility thrown onto anyone else, but you are not doing that. You are not trolling the virtues of science or some other religion. Nor are you trying to make others look deluded or stupid. I hope in time your questions are answered to your satisfaction. But yes. the key is to sit back and wait ...without feeling smug or entitled to answers or awe. The time comes or it does not. It sounds as if you are willing to accept that.  :happykaur:



Thanks I'm glad that's how you see me.


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



jnanavan said:


> I believe here is youre major flaw. It sounds like to me that you are approaching sikhi which is an EASTERN religion from a very WESTERN religious standpoint. You are not going to find ANY indian religion(hindu, sikh, buddhist, jain etc) which CLAIMS to be "the true" religion. This sort of thinking comes from the ABRAHAMIC religions. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are a MIX/MASH or previous/ancient, middle eastern cults/traditions . The messages in all 3 abrahamic texts many times goes against reason, logic and common sense and is full of inconsistencis and contradiction. All the research i have done AND my PERSONAL experience has lead me to believe that all 3 religions are false and where created as a tool to control people. This is why you find these 3 religions constantly claming to be the "TRUE" word of god or the "TRUE" path as all 3 compete for more political power in numbers.


 
In indian religions you DONT find this claim. This sort of narrow minded thinking just dosent fit in with indian religions(to the most part). So you are not going to find ANYTHING in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is going to give you "evidence" that sikhi is THE religion or THE religions of GOD. [/QUOTE]

Fair points, however the fact that Sikhi says that there is a god, and SGGSJ instructs people to meditate on gods name etc means that there is a god. That is a big claim to make that surely should require proof? Or SGGSJ should contain something which shows it is not just man-made in terms of a controlling device right?



> Guru Nanak and the 10 masters did not intend to bring the TRUE religion of GOD or the TRUE path to the world for the fact that there is NO such thing. Knowledge appears spontaneously throught the ages only to be LOST then re-appears again when the time is proper. What we are going through right NOW has happened before thousands of times and will continue to happen. The universe/god/existence is circular in nature and very abstract, you are trying to understand existence in a very linear analitycal way. The 10 masters manifested on earth to deliver to humanity the "New way of living in Kali Yuga(dark age)". Therefore in GGS you will find "sublime and timeless poetry" which will HELP a sikh(learner/diciple) on the spiritual path live through these times.


 
But then I have to ask what makes the 10 Gurus masters, why do their teachings need to be followed? 

I have no problem accepting that the majority of their teachings was for a more peaceful world, but I don't see how it can be related to god. 

With regards to the "sublime and timeless poetry", could you give an example along with an explanation so I can see where you are coming from please. 



> Shanger, in the east GOD is not a man, master or person. God is a harmony, a force, a energy, existence, a very ABSTRACT thing. More of  a process then a specific thing. I HIGHLY recommend you watch THE MATRIX 2. The whole movie is about the circular nature of the universe and neo even meets "GOD". Listen to "the creater" speak, listen to the "marovingian" speak, notice HOW the "key maker" dies and his last statement. Notice how zion and the whole war with machines is simply a process which had happened 5 times before(circular nature of reality).


Yeah I know god is not something physical, or something that humans can understand etc. BUT how do I know it is not just made up? 

Thanks for reply.


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Ishna said:


> Shanger ji
> 
> I will try again to explain my reasoning, from my personal perspective, which may differ from other people's experiences.  I am still learning, and I've got a very, very long way to go before getting even close to the level of others here.
> 
> ...



If it was written by humans then how we do know that there is a god, no human can really know that? Unless you want to say that the Gurus did because of their brighter light, but what made them more spiritual than normal people? 
From their writings to me they seem intelligent and on the whole good people, but I don't see how it connects with God or spirituality etc.



> *You said in your first post that the Quran talks about embyology (no idea what that is) which they couldn't have known about at the time.  Why isn't that proof enough for you to follow Islam?  What kind, and how much, proof do you need?  *Without faith and an open mind one is bound to challenge spirituality.



Embryology is about reproduction in the very early stages, before foetus etc.

I also said if you read the first post again, that their explanation was *FLAWED*, the fact that there are errors means I will not believe it as coming from god. 

I want reasonable proof that the religion is not just made up by humans for the sake of controlling people. 



> The poetry is what makes me get those feelings.  I read it, and recognise truth in the words put in such a beautiful form.
> 
> I get the same feeling from other authors, like Khalil Gibran.
> 
> I get the same feeling when I read about NASA projects and look at awesome photos of outer space and go "wow... we will never know the extent of this Creation... how much more there is that we can't even SEE".





> I get the same feeling when I hear about hero stories, people risking their lives to save others.  I actually got the same feeling recently when they were interviewing a man on the radio about how he was trying to save a mother and her two sons from drowning in a flooded river and he was only able to save one son.  The other boy had said "take my brother first" and by the time they got the boy to the bank his mum and brother were washed away.
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is special to me because I see it as containing so much wisdom and beauty and truth and it is like I'm the strings of the violin and it's the bow.  No other religious text is as completely beautiful, in my humble opinion.  There are parts of most religious texts which are beautiful and do contain truth.  But Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contains the most chocolate in the prettiest wrapper, I think.  icecreamkudi



Well then if someone wrote a book telling you to be a great person, pray to god, and it was written in poetry with content that brought out many emotions, would you choose to follow that instead? And if yes/no why?



> See my question re Quran above.






> Like I said, there was an error, I was using the embryology example as something that muslims use to prove that their religion is genuine.
> 
> 
> > Hopefully other Sikhs won't hit me here, and I say this with all due respect and with great love and appreciation for all 10 Gurus, but does it really matter if the person who wrote it was a nutter on a bender (and I'm in NO WAY saying any of the Gurus were nutters on benders!!)?  If it looks like truth, and it smells like truth, then it's truth against my measure.
> ...


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> my two cents on "embryology"...
> Any one who has access to aborted foetuses in various stages of its growth..would be an expert in "embryology".
> Just a week or so..an aborted foetus is..a lump of blood..
> after that each week..adds to its shape/mass...
> ...



Like I said before, I believe the islamic version is flawed, it was an example of a reason muslims give (however wrong) to prove their religion, they believe that the description of the embryo in the womb etc is something that only modern science could prove.

I was asking what kind of reasons sikhs would have. 

Your point on space/stars etc is a good one, does sikhi contain that knowledge? If so that is the kind of stuff I was seeking and would appreciate a quote/source.


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## findingmyway (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> I want reasonable proof that the religion is not just made up by humans for the sake of controlling people.



Show me anywhere in the Guru Granth Sahib ji which is about controlling people and I will become atheist today. 

Sikhism is a *personal* journey between God and the individual. It is for our personal benefit, not Gods. It is a way of empowering the individual to help themselves to be the best person they can without judging the world. That is why it is different from other religions.


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



findingmyway said:


> Show me anywhere in the Guru Granth Sahib ji which is about controlling people and I will become atheist today.
> 
> Sikhism is a *personal* journey between God and the individual. It is for our personal benefit, not Gods. It is a way of empowering the individual to help themselves to be the best person they can without judging the world. That is why it is different from other religions.



Requires people to mediate on gods name. 

Avoid halal meat (or meat full stop for some people but that is another discussion).

Avoid alcohol.

The 5Ks.

I'm sure there are more, chastity etc. 

They are instructions to control people however you look at it. You can become the best person you can be without judging the world, without religion. That is why I ask why should one follow sikhi at all? Why not secular humanism or something like that?


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## Ishna (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

I don't have time for a complete reply.

But some people just enjoy the sense of community, of belonging to a group, of feeling like they're working on their spirituality and reaching out to the Creator of the entire Universe and so much more we can't even see.

It doesn't matter if Gyani ji posts the quotes about space expanding and collapsing and expanding again. Not even that has been proven by science. Any "proof" we proved, you Shanger will refute it, because it seems you are unwilling to have faith.

If secular humanism makes more sense to you, why are you so curious about Sikhi?

If you don't like the artwork, I can explain all the nuances but you still won't like it.

Ishna


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Ishna said:


> I don't have time for a complete reply.
> 
> But some people just enjoy the sense of community, of belonging to a group, of feeling like they're working on their spirituality and reaching out to the Creator of the entire Universe and so much more we can't even see.



People who create cults prey on peoples need to feel a sense of belonging. That is how evil people con many people into sacrificing money, time etc for them. 

But if that is what people want to do then (form together for the sake of having a community) it is fair enough, but Sikhi is assuming that there is a God. This must be proven if it is to be taken seriously. 




> It doesn't matter if Gyani ji posts the quotes about space expanding and collapsing and expanding again. Not even that has been proven by science. Any "proof" we proved, you Shanger will refute it, because it seems you are unwilling to have faith.



It has been proven, without getting to technical (I don't know much anyway) the universe is expanding from a single point, so if you reverse those steps you can assume everything came from one point, heat/energy would have generated pressure hence the big bang etc. 

I haven't been given anything to refute other than being told that there is sublime poetry etc, if I'm given something that shows that the SGGSJ is from/connected to God then I will read it fairly. 

Logical thinking MUST be applied to everything, especially religion. 

If having faith means accepting without critical thinking then that sends a very bad message in my opinion. 



> If secular humanism makes more sense to you, why are you so curious about Sikhi?


Because I was born in a sikh family 


> If you don't like the artwork, I can explain all the nuances but you still won't like it.
> 
> Ishna



Like I said- 

I could write my own religious book, and say to you that you need to be open-minded and willing to accept, and refrain from fighting. 

Then say if you do not feel it, it is because you are not ready yet. If you accept it I have fooled you, if you do not I say it is because you're not looking at it in the right way etc. Either way you lose.

However if you explained how the book is not just wise words from men with good intentions, but connected to God then I will judge it fairly.


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## Seeker9 (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Dear Shangar )i

These are good fundametal questions and I am glad you asked them as I have really enjoyed reading the replies

Before I attemt an answer I should be grateful if you could clarify a couple of things for me:

1) You have referred to a need for proof. What would be the nature of the proof you seek? What would satisfy you? Something supernatural perhaps? Do you know what it is you seek?

2) Science - for every reference you can find alluding to scientific knowledge in The Bible or Qu'ran, I think you will be able to find counter-arguments online fairly easily: And in terms of Spiritual development why would it be relevant anyway? The builders of Stonehenge had knowledge. The builders of the Pyramids had knowledge. Both structures pre-date the Qu'ran by thousands of years! 

In terms of personal spiritual progress I would suggest the Science angle is completely irrelevant! 

I will post again once you have replied
:redturban:


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Seeker9 said:


> Dear Shangar )i
> 
> These are good fundametal questions and I am glad you asked them as I have really enjoyed reading the replies
> 
> ...


Hello 

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc. 

I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time. 

Or an explanation of how the world was made.

Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines. 



> 2) Science - for every reference you can find alluding to scientific knowledge in The Bible or Qu'ran, I think you will be able to find counter-arguments online fairly easily: And in terms of Spiritual development why would it be relevant anyway? The builders of Stonehenge had knowledge. The builders of the Pyramids had knowledge. Both structures pre-date the Qu'ran by thousands of years!
> 
> In terms of personal spiritual progress I would suggest the Science angle is completely irrelevant!
> 
> ...



I don't think that quran or the bible are from god, and I know that there are errors in both books proven by science, which is why I would never follow either religion. 

My point is that if there is no proof then there is no point following the religion, I (and many others) don't need spiritual progression/development to live a good life, and if I was to try to get it from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ then I would need proof, it would be irrational to go on blind-faith.

Thanks for replies


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## Seeker9 (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> It has been proven, without getting to technical (I don't know much  anyway) the universe is expanding from a single point, so if you reverse  those steps you can assume everything came from one point, heat/energy  would have generated pressure hence the big bang etc.




!et's not go off at a tangent here but current thinking from leading theoretical physicists such as Prof Stephen Hawking is that the above is a cyclical process so that the universe has always existed


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## Seeker9 (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Dear Shangar Ji

You appear to have confirmed the futility of this debate by stating you have no need for spiritual progression

I and many others do have a need which is why people follow a particular path that suits them

May I ask if you are an Atheist as there are already a number of good Atheist threads on this forum

as stated before, I consider the science thing to be irrelevant unless you suggest we should start worshipping the builders of Stonehenge or the Pyramids

there are a number of things that make Sikhism stand out from the crowd but is there much point going into them as if a miracle is what you seek, then i doubt any religion would pass that test


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## Seeker9 (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Dear all

Apologies for the quality of my recent posts as I am doing this from a phone !


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## Seeker9 (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Dear shangar ji 

I see from an earlier post that you were insisting that logic be applied to religion. 

i assume you will agree that it should apply to science as well

i trust then you are aware of aspects of quantum physics that defy logic.

are you as eager to dismiss quantum physicss as well?


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## findingmyway (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Depends on outlook. I'll explain below in blue.



Shanger said:


> Requires people to mediate on gods name.
> Define meditation? Repeating a 'mantra' or buddhist style meditation is not the way for everyone but does help others. For some Sikhs mediation is applying the guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib ji into your life. There are different types of 'meditation' so I don't understand your point. Everyone has coping mechanisms for life and many of these could come under the umbrella of meditation.
> 
> Avoid halal meat (or meat full stop for some people but that is another discussion).
> ...


Being the best person is one part, the other is feeling spirituality for the ultimate peace of mind.




> Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.
> I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
> Or an explanation of how the world was made.
> Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.



You are looking for the wrong things. You mention the big bang but what came before, how was it created, how has everything worked out so perfectly for us to exist, why do I feel so much wonder when looking at a waterfall or watching wildlife on safari? These are proof enough of God for me. The beauty of the Guru Granth Sahib ji is that there is nothing contradictory, nothing that stops you living in the real world (quite the opposite) and nothing that science refutes. Without spirituality you don't get true peace of mind and emotions are harder to handle. Challenges and happiness is dealt with in a different way. (I'm not there yet but working on it). You can live successfully without but I feel life is enriched with having spirituality otherwise there is a hole there. Everyone is different so you have to choose your own path and that includes doing some more of your own research starting from SGGSJ.


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Seeker9 said:


> !et's not go off at a tangent here but current thinking from leading theoretical physicists such as Prof Stephen Hawking is that the above is a cyclical process so that the universe has always existed


But it still happened right? Then I'm asking whether SGGSJ refers to it, and how so. 


Seeker9 said:


> Dear Shangar Ji
> 
> You appear to have confirmed the futility of this debate by stating you have no need for spiritual progression
> 
> ...



Can I ask you- what is it about SGGSJ that makes you believe that it was not created by intelligent men with no special level of spirituality to control people (for a good cause perhaps)?

I'm not an atheist. 

Maybe miracle is a strong word, but something special to show the religious scripture is valid is surely not an unreasonably request? 
What kind of things maybe sikhi stand out from the crowd? - & I don't just mean the differences (like there are man paths to god etc) I mean in terms of it not being a farce.

Thanks for replies


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Seeker9 said:


> Dear all
> 
> Apologies for the quality of my recent posts as I am doing this from a phone !


Dont worry theyre fine 


Seeker9 said:


> Dear shangar ji
> 
> I see from an earlier post that you were insisting that logic be applied to religion.
> 
> ...



I don't really know anything about quantum physics, could you give me an example of something that defies logic?


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



findingmyway said:


> Depends on outlook. I'll explain below in blue.
> 
> Define meditation? Repeating a 'mantra' or buddhist style meditation is not the way for everyone but does help others. For some Sikhs mediation is applying the guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib ji into your life. There are different types of 'meditation' so I don't understand your point. Everyone has coping mechanisms for life and many of these could come under the umbrella of meditation.


Either way you have to take action in meditating/praying. My point was about sikhi controlling your life, I was asked how, and this is one example, you're told to do pray etc 




> Avoiding Halal meat is for 2 reasons; 1, in some countries and way back then eating Halal meat made you Muslim in the authorities eyes, and 2, Halal meat is a ritual. So not eating it is empowering and moving you away from rituals that don't make sense.


I could argue that the 5Ks are rituals that do not make sense though. And that eating meat dedicated to god makes you more higher on a spiritual level and closer to god etc. 




> Alcohol makes you lose control of your mind so again avoiding intoxicants is empowering you to retain FULL control of your life. Peer pressure is such a powerful force that my choice not to drink is actually very liberating and provides me with much respect as many don't have the strength to not join in as they are expected to. So really the control is over your OWN life. Mandating alcohol and drugs would give others more control over you!


In moderation alcohol is fine, but it is forbidden full stop, which is again sikhi controlling your life.



> If you understand the reasoning behind them then they are empowering. If you don't then you shouldn't keep them. They are all about freedom and defending that freedom. If you don't believe in them then don't keep them as that's not true to yourself or the cause.



It is quite the opposite to freedom, I would have to refrain from buying food at a halal chicken shop, I would have to refrain from drinking alcohol even if I only wanted one glass etc. 



> Again, they all have a good reason. Chastity for example stops lust controlling your mind and dictating your actions. It's all about you keeping control over your own mind rather than being controlled by your environment, peer pressure, hormones, emotions etc.



Someone can have a few sexual partners in their life and not be an obsessed sexual deviant overcome with lust, also they can also wear contraception, so all in all there will be no harm done as it doesnt mean that their life will be taken over. 



> You are looking for the wrong things. You mention the big bang but what came before, how was it created, how has everything worked out so perfectly for us to exist, why do I feel so much wonder when looking at a waterfall or watching wildlife on safari? These are proof enough of God for me. The beauty of the Guru Granth Sahib ji is that there is nothing contradictory, nothing that stops you living in the real world (quite the opposite) and nothing that science refutes. Without spirituality you don't get true peace of mind and emotions are harder to handle. Challenges and happiness is dealt with in a different way. (I'm not there yet but working on it). You can live successfully without but I feel life is enriched with having spirituality otherwise there is a hole there. Everyone is different so you have to choose your own path and that includes doing some more of your own research starting from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ.



If the big bang and what came before it was explained then sure would add a lot of credibility. 

I get that you feel wonder when looking at things, and that you think that only a powerful external force like god could be responsible, but there is also another angle to look at, why are there so many flaws? e.g. why do many animals go extinct, why do thousands of small turtles etc get eaten before making adulthood, why do millions of sperm get wasted when only 1 is required , many scientists say that less than 1 in a million planets in our galaxy and other galaxies may be able to support life. In our own solar system just 1 out of 9 planets is habitable. There are many imperfections. Therefore the idea of a great perfect god doesnt seem rational to me.


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## spnadmin (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

shanger ji

Your question can be turned around easily and will be just as impossible to answer. Your question 





> Can I ask you- what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ that makes you believe that it was not created by intelligent men with no special level of spirituality to control people (for a good cause perhaps)?



Now turn it around "Can I ask you - what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that makes you believe i*t was created by unintelligent men* with *special levels of spirituality*, and they d*id not want to control people* (for any reason)?" 

The only way to demonstrate points made in Question 1 is to read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then highlight shabads where you think intelligence, along with the intention to "control" and  lack of "spirituality" are present.

The only way to demonstrate the points made in Quesiton 2 is to highlight shabads where you believe there is evidence of stupidity, accompanied by a high degree of spirituality and no desire to control. 

Now I can predict that either way you are going to have one or more people, argue  and say, NO you are wrong! Their problem will be that they are reacting from their guts and do not see how you are asking trick questions. 

 Seems like a huge waste of time and energy. 

Take one issue at a time. Talk about intelligence, spirituality, and whether there is or is not evidence of trying to control behavior one issue at a time.

Final point - If you are looking for proof, no one will be able to convince you, unless you state up front what kind of proof you are looking for, and what tests the proof has to meet. Otherwise we are indulging in a guessing game.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger Ji,
You will have to look for the relevnat material yourself. No spoon feeding from my end.
Btw there are various Threads on SPN itself on Gurbani/Sggs/Science etc. Very informative and containing quotes etc and written by experts in their fields. Shouldnt be  a problem locating them and going through them if due diligence is exercised. SGGS has to be studied by ones-self..it cannot be taught via quotes.
Regards


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



spnadmin said:


> shanger ji
> 
> Your question can be turned around easily and will be just as impossible to answer. Your question
> 
> ...



Do you mean to ask

"what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that makes you believe i*t was created by intelligent men* without *special levels of spirituality*, because they want to control people (for any reason)?" 

-because that is the point that I am getting at. 



> The only way to demonstrate the points made in Quesiton 2 is to highlight shabads where you believe there is evidence of stupidity, accompanied by a high degree of spirituality and no desire to control.



I think there has been a misunderstanding, I am saying that the Gurus could have been intelligent people who not special level of spirituality, who wrote SGGSJ to control people. 

I never used the word stupidity either. 

I could highlight shabads where I believe that there is no evidence of spirituality & there is desire to control. 



> Now I can predict that either way you are going to have one or more people, argue  and say, NO you are wrong! Their problem will be that they are reacting from their guts and do not see how you are asking trick questions.



I'm not asking trick questions.


> Seems like a huge waste of time and energy.
> Take one issue at a time. Talk about intelligence, spirituality, and whether there is or is not evidence of trying to control behavior one issue at a time.


Ok I shall start from the beginning. 


> Final point - If you are looking for proof, no one will be able to convince you, unless you state up front what kind of proof you are looking for, and what tests the proof has to meet. Otherwise we are indulging in a guessing game.


Ok, I already said above  I would like this kind of proof-

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc. 
I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time. 
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.



> Removing my comment thanking you earlier because I have changed my mind.



I'm not trying to convert people to atheists or get them to leave sikhi if thats what you think, I am trying to get a better understanding, if my points across like an attack its because I dont know how to word them any different.


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Shanger Ji,
> You will have to look for the relevnat material yourself. No spoon feeding from my end.
> Btw there are various Threads on SPN itself on Gurbani/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/Science etc. Very informative and containing quotes etc and written by experts in their fields. Shouldnt be  a problem locating them and going through them if due diligence is exercised. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has to be studied by ones-self..it cannot be taught via quotes.
> Regards



I've done thread title searches for words such as "science" "evolution" "earth" etc but not much comes up, abstracts to books etc such as this- 

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/blogs/drdpsn/83-scientific-vision-sri-guru-granth-sahib.html - this was on scientific vision in SGGSJ but there was no sources/shabads given. probably all in the full book though


anyway I guess me going through SGGSJ shabad after shabad will be more constructive.


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## spnadmin (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji 

I do not mean to ask anything regarding this subject. My intention is to get you to clarify. Now we have a question that I hope is the one you want to focus on. 



> Shanger said:
> 
> 
> > Do you mean to ask
> ...


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Ok 1st ang

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=1





> ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaŉ gur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
> ...



Basically this to me-


is focusing on the greatness of god, how god is the truth, always has been always will be, you cannot deceive god etc. 

You're brain cannot comprehend the maginificent qualities of god.

God is responsible for everything.

All things that a regular human could have wrote in my opinion, this is just the start I am not saying the entire SGGSJ is like this, but for the sake of discussion I will stop here for now so we can discuss the ang. 

There is nothing which makes me see how there is anything spiritual. 
Nothing here is controlling yet. 

Also would it be better for me to analyse shabads together instead of individual angs? I would have done so now but I didnt know where it began and ended so just stopped at the end of the ang.


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## spnadmin (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Well before I go into more detail, Let me offer some corrections.



> Also would it be better for me to analyse shabads together instead of individual angs? I would have done so now but I didnt know where it began and ended so just stopped at the end of the ang.



You seemed to have stopped at the end of the pauree 3. Not at the end of a raag. Also Japuji is not written as a raag. Usually Japuji is discussed pauree by pauree. 

So you could discuss one pauree at a time, or discuss all 3 of them together.


And you omitted the end of the 3rd pauree, as follows



> ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵੇਖੈ ਹਾਦਰਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
> gaavai ko vaekhai haadharaa hadhoor ||
> गावै को वेखै हादरा हदूरि ॥
> Some sing that He watches over us, face to face, ever-present.
> ...


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## Shanger (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Ok I think I get it now, I see the numbers. 
||3|| = 3rd pauree? 
||4|| = 4th pauree etc? 


I will start where I left off and finish the paurees



> ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵੇਖੈ ਹਾਦਰਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
> गावै को वेखै हादरा हदूरि ॥
> Gāvai ko vekẖai hāḏrā haḏūr.
> Some sing that He watches over us, face to face, ever-present.
> ...



This to me is saying similar things to the previous pauree.

God is all-knowing and responsible for everything we have, god is great and flawless unlike humans and will lead us towards him (leads us to walk on the Path). 

Again nothing special/spiritual in my opinion, nothing a normal human could not have wrote. 

(all from ang 2)


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## spnadmin (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

OK   that you see how the paurees are marked off, and thanks for reposting. I am not going to respond for right now. But let's see what other people come up wiht. Thanks.


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## jnanavan (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> Fair points, however the fact that Sikhi says that there is a god, and Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ instructs people to meditate on gods name etc means that there is a god. That is a big claim to make that surely should require proof? Or Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ should contain something which shows it is not just man-made in terms of a controlling device right?


 
Yes you are right. This proof is in the very first word that nanak uttered after attaining enlightment, the problem is you lack two things and no it is not faith. You lack 1)wisdom and 2)awareness. This proof is stated in the beginning of every ragga/shabbad. 

*EK-ONGKAR *

Out of the thousands of names that humans have attributed to god(allah, yahweh, dios, bhagavan,god etc) there is only ONE and ONE true name that was not assigned by any man in any language but is a product of god himself, that true name of the creater is *ONGKAR.*

Onkar means *"the sound of OM"* which i believe in rooted in the ancient vedas and eventually hinduism. When a person reaches a state of SAMADHI or ENGLIGHTMENT one finaly gets to hear* "the melody of existence". *The universe is made of ENERGY and sound is an expression of ENERGY or VIBRATION. In eastern philosophy(throught the whole ancient world really) sages discovered this thousdands of years ago, they discovered that existence,sound and energy are all one. As a matter a fact every single planet is ommiting certain harmonic tones and together form a *CELESTIAL ORCHERTRA. *Also the harmonic notes which we use to play music derived from the distance(i could be wrong) or spot which the planets occupy. 

YouTube - Jupiter sounds (so strange!) NASA-Voyager recording

Omkar is also knows as the *"unstruck sound" *or *"Ananhat Naad"* because it is beyond all *DUALITY*. For sound to be created a DUALITY is needed. For example in a string instrument you need 1)the strings 2) the plucking of the fingers. This duality creates a sound and all sound is created out of this DUALITY. God is beyond DUALITY, timeless, formless, beyond birth and rebirth, uncaused cause, beyond casuality(as the merovingian would say in Matrix 2). 



> But then I have to ask what makes the 10 Gurus masters, why do their teachings need to be followed?
> 
> I have no problem accepting that the majority of their teachings was for a more peaceful world, but I don't see how it can be related to god.
> 
> With regards to the "sublime and timeless poetry", could you give an example along with an explanation so I can see where you are coming from please.


 
A man of god recognises another man of god. A thief recognises a thief. A philosopher can spot out another philosopher. A sorcerer can spot out another sorcerer. Only the wise will be able to recognise the TRUE GURU(any teacher) , so if you cannot see the wisdom of the 10 masters of the world then it is not their fault or prolem. It is youres. Here goes a shabad which i consider SUBLIME and TIMELESS and which YOU can benefit a lot from.

Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Third Mehla, Ashtpadeeaa:fficeffice" /><?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

The pollution of the mind is the love of duality.

Deluded by doubt, people come and go in reincarnation. ||1||

The pollution of the self-willed manmukhs will never go away,

as long as they do not dwell on the Shabad, and the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

All the created beings are contaminated by emotional attachment;

they die and are reborn, only to die over and over again. ||2||

Fire, air and water are polluted.

The food which is eaten is polluted. ||3||

The actions of those who do not worship the Lord are polluted.

Attuned to the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the mind becomes immaculate. ||4||

Serving the True Guru, pollution is eradicated,

and then, one does not suffer death and rebirth, or get devoured by death. ||5||

You may study and examine the Shaastras and the Simritees,

but without the Name, no one is liberated. ||6||

Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, only the Gurmukhs cross over. ||7||

The True Lord does not die; He does not come or go.

O Nanak, the Gurmukh remains absorbed in the Lord. ||8||1||

animatedkhanda1


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## jnanavan (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji, one more thing. Gurus understood the power of NAAD/SOUND/VIBRATION and employed a RAGA(indian classical tunes/alchemical formulas) to every shabad. This way you get to

1)cognitively or analiticaly understand the message
2)emotionaly or intuivly feel the message thorugh the specific RAGA.

So this beutiful shabbad i posted above is only doing half of its effect if it is only READ. This shabbad should be accompanied by the RAGA and sung to have its full affect on youre soul.

Also i read something about science , not sure if you where advocating this but either ways. Science is a bloody joke and only measures the universe according to our 5 senses. This is great for understanding and controling small aspects of the universe(build a damn, harness electricity) but when you are trying to use science to asnwer the great mysterious of the universe it is like mowing the lawn with scissors.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji, For me Sikhism provides a cure to all suffering. That's right, ALL suffering. It is quite simple to grasp the general idea of it, yet it gets very difficult when you delve into the details and the practice of it. The spirituality in Sikhism is focused on one's ego and creating sangats to help each other break down this ego. Ego is manifested  in the 5 "vices", it shows its ugly face through these: greed, pride, anger, etc. Once you have reached God, and by that I mean once you have broken down your ego, you will start seeing oneness. You will start seeing the BIG picture of the world, you will feel a sense of unity. These words are not enough to describe this indescribable experience it can only be felt, it can only be experienced. Once you experience it you will no longer doubt that experience. But in order to get there you need to believe (have some belief) that it is indeed possible.

We do things to makes us happy. We take part in pleasures like eating delicious foods, enjoying company, watching TV, reading a good book, etc. After performing these tasks, you feel good for about an hour. You go back, and repeat this. Again, you feel good for about an hour. You go back and repeat this. You feel good about yourself yet again, however, you find yourself seeking out these same things over and over and over. You may even look for something new to do, yet you find yourself going back to it and repeating it. In our daily life, we constantly reiterate these things to keep us well and happy.
Do you realize that this is the dumbest thing ever!?! Think about it. If you are solving a solution to a math problem you have never seen ,and you've tried about 5 different ways of solving it. Once you solve using those 5 ways, you go back and repeat... doesn't work, you go back and repeat yet again... and again and again... until you are dead...sad...:motherlylove:


There was only one thing to do for the people who realized how stupid this was! They tried a simple experiment and isolated themselves from these things. They would go in to an isolated cave or in the middle of a desert, when they would not be inclined to repeat their old habits of simply repeating **** over and over. There they started to uncover secrets of happiness, they started to uncover the solution to the end of suffering. They found that there is an alternative source of happiness that is not contingent upon having friends or family around, or always having that promotion you wanted. They found that this alternative source of happiness is limitless, you can draw as much as you want and it never runs out. It is beyond anyone's grasp, beyond anyone's understanding or capacity to understand. "It is there, if only you believe us", they said, "we have some idea of how to get there."

Over many more centuries, you have many developments in this field, especially  in the East... by humans just like us...

Fast forward this development to the time of the Gurus. This was during the rise of the Bhakti Movement, more can be found here: http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhakti.html and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti_movement

The developments in that search for happiness had developed to the point where one did not need isolate them from the world. Spiritual practices were being included as part of daily life by many intelligent saints. In fact, practices like social service was being preached by great saints of this 'marg' like Bhagat Kabir, Sheikh Farid, etc. Social service, where the mind is focused on the service and the humility of such service, was a great for diminishing the ego (see the very beginning of this reply). This applied to all practices.

Sikhism in its spirituality and social relations is heavily influenced by the Bhakti movement. However, unlike other Bhakti preachers, Gurus were keen on making their ideals being put into practice rather than remain mostly in theory, and with one man Guru Nanak, Sikhism had began to develop into a religion in its own right, covering not only spirituality and social services but also the field of politics and military. The latter two turned out to be more important than estimated (if ever considered) by the previous saints of the Bhakti movement. However Gurus were quick to prepare for them. These aspects (of Sikhism) became essential when it came to protecting the spiritual and social system (of Sikhism). The Mughals in order to protect their own power, started to undermine the power of those gaining power including the Sikh Gurus, Maratha Kings. Knowledge of politics and military, and learning to defeat their tyrannical government both politcally and through use of arms and armour became necessary. ....Thus  Sikhism developed into a complete system that it is today. (in a nutshell)

You asked "why Sikhism?" This is why Sikhism. 
*Unlike* the Western system which is focused on individual material gain, power and control (it sees only itself in every other system)... Sikhism is the latest "technology" of the development of systems of well-being; it is focused around individual and universal *well-being*. It brings into play politics and military if it needs to defend this well being.

Cheers


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## findingmyway (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji,
I am only going to comment on 2 points at this stage.
1) Alcohol is a mind altering substance, there is no denying this fact. That is why people like taking it. I have heard the moderation argument by so many people trying to justify themselves but it doesn't hold so if you want to drink accept it for what it is. Even 1 drink will change you (maybe not dramatically). Also there are some situations where 1 drink is enough to know someone over the edge, eg on empty stomach, when feeling down, and it is not always predictable when this would happen. If this wasn't the case why would some countries have zero limit for driving and why do health professionals have zero tolerance to alcohol in work? The choice is yours-drugs controlling your mind or you retaining full control at all times. So I stick by what I said about not drinking being empowering.

2) Japji is very deep, beautiful and meaningful. You are only scratching the surface. In my gurmat classes we spend 40 minutes each week discussing 1 pauri!! It's like me knowing only high school genetics and asking whats the point of studying it. Try reading through some things here to get you started http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/
Here is an essay I wrote a while ago which will also give you food for thought http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33504-blind-faith-in-sikhism-is-possible.html

In school, university etc, you don't expect to spoon fed as you learn less and are less engaged. The same applies here.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> Basically I'm asking what reasons you have for believing in Sikhi.
> 
> I ask this because at the moment I'm reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I am near the beginning and so far I have not read anything that convinces me, that could change though I have much to read.
> 
> ...



Reasons why I like Sikhism:

1) I like the idea of God being in everyone.
2) I like the idea that in order to realise that God you must control Krodh, Kam, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar
3) I like the idea of heaven and hell not being actual places but about those who dwell in self and unselfishly.
4) I like the idea there is no classic fight between good and evil, but that everyone is capable of being good or evil my resorting to self.
5) I like the idea of Munmukh (Self willed) and Munmook (God willed)
6) I like the fact that God is just seen as the creator of the laws of nature and we are free to operate within them, either for good or bad (it is up to us)

I could go on.

Do I think Sikhism is right? Well its right for me, can't say whether it is right for you.


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## Seeker9 (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> Dont worry theyre fine
> 
> 
> I don't really know anything about quantum physics, could you give me an example of something that defies logic?



Dear Shangar Ji

I don't want to go off topic and it is probably better if you engage in a little research and learning. To that end, just Google the experiment where physicists proved the simulateneous existence of a particle in 2 places at once........how can something be in 2 places at once? Logical?? I think not!

If you read a bit more about the workings of the Universe at the Quantum state, you will hopefully appreciate there is no logic to explain behaviour at this level

As for the Big bang stuff, I'm not sure why the Big Bang explanation and the existence of God are mutually exclusive? In fact, you may be aware that teh Vatican officially endorsed this theory as in their mind, it left plenty of room for a Creator

That aside, I am sure you are aware that the concept of God in Sikhism is very different from the bearded patriarch in the Abrahamic faiths....in Sikhism, the Universe and God are one....so a cyclical universe that has always existed is absolutely fine

Now a couple more questions for you..

1) If you are looking for supernatural evidence to prove Scriptures are not man made, I guess you will believe in the divine authenticity of the Ten Commandments which God inscribed with his fiery finger on Mount Sinai? Or are you insisting on seeing a miracle yourself now with your own eyes before you are prepared to accept anything?


2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...in fact, there are many Quantum Physicists who believe in God and have a greater appreciation of the Creation through QP

You have asked us to explain why we believe what we do and all the replies have been thorough and true. 

I am now asking you to do some explaining and prove to us that God does not exist.....ultimately I think we will find it comes down to personal choice...you either choose to believe or you don't.............
:blueturban:


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## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Thanks for replies, I will read through them slowly. 

but quickly regarding the last point from Seeker9ji- 



> I am now asking you to do some explaining and prove to us that God does not exist.....



the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim about such existence. for example i could say that the entire universe is ruled by a gigantic lion in outer space, which is billions of galaxies away. It would be unreasonable for me to ask you to prove me wrong, because it is not possible, which is why it makes sense for people who say that there is a god, to be the ones who have to do the proving. 

But if its really important, I can still give my reasons for not believing in a conventional god as suggested by religions, but it would better to do that later so that this thread doesn't have too many discussions going on at the same time. 

I haven't read all the replies yet I will begin now from the start.


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## spnadmin (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> 1) Or are you insisting on seeing a miracle yourself now with your own eyes before you are prepared to accept anything?
> 
> 
> 2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...i
> ...



Seeker9, your comments demonstrate why I see discussions of proofs and miracles going in circles. 

One cannot logically prove the negative - that God does not exist, or that QP can show that God does not exist, or that the Big Bang theory proves there is not God. All science can do is argue there is insufficient evidence for x y or z.

Even if a nonbeliever had what is called a Pauline conversion in which God strikes him blind with miraculous light, manifests, and turns the nonbeliever into a believer, his vision restored and improved -- that is also a subjective experience. It places the person converted by his own special miracle in the same position as above. What objective evidence does he use to convince anyone else. 

There is no where to go with the suggestion.


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## Seeker9 (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> Thanks for replies, I will read through them slowly.
> 
> but quickly regarding the last point from Seeker9ji-
> 
> ...




Ok but I would ultimately have to disagree as there are no scientific methods to provide the proof that you seek..so what you ask is impossible

Following on from SPN Admin Ji's comments below, here's something funny about the concept of proof from one of my favourite novels..The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams:

_The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. 
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen it to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
_.


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## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



jnanavan said:


> Yes you are right. This proof is in the very first word that nanak uttered after attaining enlightment, the problem is you lack two things and no it is not faith. You lack 1)wisdom and 2)awareness. This proof is stated in the beginning of every ragga/shabbad.
> 
> *EK-ONGKAR *
> 
> Out of the thousands of names that humans have attributed to god(allah, yahweh, dios, bhagavan,god etc) there is only ONE and ONE true name that was not assigned by any man in any language but is a product of god himself, that true name of the creater is *ONGKAR.*



Okay I understand your definition. Though without being disrespectful I don't see how you can that proof of God is on just one word and claim that I lack wisdom. 

I see what Ek-Ongkar means but that still doesn't mean there is a god in the first place, however I will read on. 




> Onkar means *"the sound of OM"* which i believe in rooted in the ancient vedas and eventually hinduism. When a person reaches a state of SAMADHI or ENGLIGHTMENT one finaly gets to hear* "the melody of existence". *The universe is made of ENERGY and sound is an expression of ENERGY or VIBRATION. In eastern philosophy(throught the whole ancient world really) sages discovered this thousdands of years ago, they discovered that existence,sound and energy are all one. As a matter a fact every single planet is ommiting certain harmonic tones and together form a *CELESTIAL ORCHERTRA. *Also the harmonic notes which we use to play music derived from the distance(i could be wrong) or spot which the planets occupy.
> 
> YouTube - Jupiter sounds (so strange!) NASA-Voyager recording



Do you mean "the sound of OM" as in literally OMMMM? Because that video shows that there are many different noises. 

I accept the information about the sounds in space, but I think that it is too far-fetched to immediately associate that to the meaning of Ek-Ongkar, if you are suggesting that the Gurus were intentionally referring to the celestial orchestra, surely you would need something else more clearer/precise said since you claim it as proof that god exists? 

*however for now i will NOT rule out the possibility that the Gurus were in fact making references to the celestial orchestra. *





> Omkar is also knows as the *"unstruck sound" *or *"Ananhat Naad"* because it is beyond all *DUALITY*. For sound to be created a DUALITY is needed. For example in a string instrument you need 1)the strings 2) the plucking of the fingers. This duality creates a sound and all sound is created out of this DUALITY. God is beyond DUALITY, timeless, formless, beyond birth and rebirth, uncaused cause, beyond casuality(as the merovingian would say in Matrix 2).



I understand your meaning of duality, but again I don't see how it can apply to god. As it is like saying, gods exists because the Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ says so. Do you see where I am coming from? 



> A man of god recognises another man of god. A thief recognises a thief. A philosopher can spot out another philosopher. A sorcerer can spot out another sorcerer. Only the wise will be able to recognise the TRUE GURU(any teacher) , so if you cannot see the wisdom of the 10 masters of the world then it is not their fault or prolem. It is youres. Here goes a shabad which i consider SUBLIME and TIMELESS and which YOU can benefit a lot from.



goes back to my own example, what if i made my own religion and claimed
that if you cannot see the wisdom it is because it is your own fault.

Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good. 

Without it we could not tell apart a charlatan/impostor from a true guru/messenger of God. There's been many impostors claiming to be prophets/sent from god every year. How do we know they are not telling the truth and that the Gurus were? We must use our intelligence/logic. The same imperfect and fallible intelligence that cannot comprehend god. Do you see my point? It makes no sense to simply say one lacks wisdom if he doesnt accept something as being true. 


I will type what I think each part of the shabad means, the bits I do not understand I will ask you to clarify if you don't mind, then I will share my thoughts with you on the shabad. 



> Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Third Mehla, Ashtpadeeaa:fficeffice" /><?"urn:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



only accepting that with fits with principles of duality is that which is wrong with us. 



> Deluded by doubt, people come and go in reincarnation. ||1||


people go through reincarnation (maybe deluded by doubt means that those who cannot accept that there are things beyond duality will stay in the cycle of reincarnation and not reach salvation? please clarify)



> The pollution of the self-willed manmukhs will never go away,



those who stray by following their own desires will always exist




> as long as they do not dwell on the Shabad, and the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||


i dont understand what tht means in this context please clarify. 



> All the created beings are contaminated by emotional attachment;


all creatures have the flaw of emotional attachment



> they die and are reborn, only to die over and over again. ||2||



they keep going through reincarnation


> Fire, air and water are polluted.






> The food which is eaten is polluted. ||3||


not sure sure what this means, maybe a metaphor? please clarify



> The actions of those who do not worship the Lord are polluted.


the actions of ppl who dont worship god wrong/corrupted



> Attuned to the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the mind becomes immaculate. ||4||



you become in a much better state when brought onto a stage with god



> Serving the True Guru, pollution is eradicated,



wrongness can be avoided by serving the gurus


> and then, one does not suffer death and rebirth, or get devoured by death. ||5||


breaking the cycle of reincarnation



> You may study and examine the Shaastras and the Simritees,






> but without the Name, no one is liberated. ||6||


you can study religious texts but without god youre not free i think? please clarify



> Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad.



throughout all the ages god has been supreme, so take note of the words of Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ 


> In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, only the Gurmukhs cross over. ||7||


in this modern evil world only those who comply with the guru reach salvation



> The True Lord does not die; He does not come or go.



god is immortal, he was never created, he will never cease etc. 


> O Nanak, the Gurmukh remains absorbed in the Lord. ||8||1||
> 
> animatedkhanda1


followers of the guru become at one with god.



Please clarify the parts I did not understand, or have a wrong understanding of, in laymans terms, and then we can discuss the shabad properly. 

Thanks


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## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



jnanavan said:


> Shanger ji, one more thing. Gurus understood the power of NAAD/SOUND/VIBRATION and employed a RAGA(indian classical tunes/alchemical formulas) to every shabad. This way you get to
> 
> 1)cognitively or analiticaly understand the message
> 2)emotionaly or intuivly feel the message thorugh the specific RAGA.
> ...




I can't read punjabi or gurmukhi, and I will probably mispronounce if I just go off the english spelling of the gurmukhi so unfortunately I cannot do your experiment in a fair way. Maybe if I heard some audio I could try? 



> Also i read something about science , not sure if you where advocating this but either ways. Science is a bloody joke and only measures the universe according to our 5 senses. This is great for understanding and controling small aspects of the universe(build a damn, harness electricity) but when you are trying to use science to asnwer the great mysterious of the universe it is like mowing the lawn with scissors.




That goes back to the point I just made

Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good. 

Without it we could not tell apart a charlatan/impostor from a true guru/messenger of God. There's been many impostors claiming to be prophets/sent from god every year. How do we know they are not telling the truth and that the Gurus were? We must use our intelligence/logic. The same imperfect and fallible intelligence that cannot comprehend god. Do you see my point? It makes no sense to simply say one lacks wisdom if he doesnt accept something as being true. 

If we don't apply logic then anyone can use the excuse "you cannot comprehen the true god because it is out of our human realm".


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## Ishna (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

actually I believe it is our conscience which tells us right from wrong. Also we have intuition. You can't come at spirituality using only half your brain.

Ishna



Shanger said:


> I can't read punjabi or gurmukhi, and I will probably mispronounce if I just go off the english spelling of the gurmukhi so unfortunately I cannot do your experiment in a fair way. Maybe if I heard some audio I could try?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



BhagatSingh said:


> Shanger ji, For me Sikhism provides a cure to all suffering. That's right, ALL suffering. It is quite simple to grasp the general idea of it, yet it gets very difficult when you delve into the details and the practice of it. The spirituality in Sikhism is focused on one's ego and creating sangats to help each other break down this ego. Ego is manifested  in the 5 "vices", it shows its ugly face through these: greed, pride, anger, etc. Once you have reached God, and by that I mean once you have broken down your ego, you will start seeing oneness. You will start seeing the BIG picture of the world, you will feel a sense of unity. These words are not enough to describe this indescribable experience it can only be felt, it can only be experienced. Once you experience it you will no longer doubt that experience. But in order to get there you need to believe (have some belief) that it is indeed possible.



Hello. 

To be clear on what you're saying, are suggesting that a period of blind faith,  will result in an experience which will make one believe that there actually is a god? I get that impression since you say one will only know when he reaches a point of enlightenment, which requires prayer etc to get to in the first place. 

And I do agree controlling the 5 vices make sense.  




> We do things to makes us happy. We take part in pleasures like eating delicious foods, enjoying company, watching TV, reading a good book, etc. After performing these tasks, you feel good for about an hour. You go back, and repeat this. Again, you feel good for about an hour. You go back and repeat this. You feel good about yourself yet again, however, you find yourself seeking out these same things over and over and over. You may even look for something new to do, yet you find yourself going back to it and repeating it. In our daily life, we constantly reiterate these things to keep us well and happy.
> Do you realize that this is the dumbest thing ever!?! Think about it. If you are solving a solution to a math problem you have never seen ,and you've tried about 5 different ways of solving it. Once you solve using those 5 ways, you go back and repeat... doesn't work, you go back and repeat yet again... and again and again... until you are dead...sad...:motherlylove:
> 
> There was only one thing to do for the people who realized how stupid this was! They tried a simple experiment and isolated themselves from these things. They would go in to an isolated cave or in the middle of a desert, when they would not be inclined to repeat their old habits of simply repeating **** over and over. There they started to uncover secrets of happiness, they started to uncover the solution to the end of suffering. They found that there is an alternative source of happiness that is not contingent upon having friends or family around, or always having that promotion you wanted. They found that this alternative source of happiness is limitless, you can draw as much as you want and it never runs out. It is beyond anyone's grasp, beyond anyone's understanding or capacity to understand. "It is there, if only you believe us", they said, "we have some idea of how to get there."
> ...



Being able to stay happy whilst in isolation in a cave for a long period of time is impressive (or it could be a sign of mental illness, I'm not saying that is the case but so far I cannot rule that out). Either way when one has time to think, such as when in prison, it is not an amazing feat or spiritual moment for them to have thoughts arise which did not arise previously. 

Also you must consider that a lot of people are happy anyway and not suffering, and do not require any sort of epiphany or awakening to stay/be happy.

With regards to the social services, humans are social creatures, and naturally many take pleasure from helping others. So I don't think this can explain anything spiritual. 



> Sikhism in its spirituality and social relations is heavily influenced by the Bhakti movement. However, unlike other Bhakti preachers, Gurus were keen on making their ideals being put into practice rather than remain mostly in theory, and with one man Guru Nanak, Sikhism had began to develop into a religion in its own right, covering not only spirituality and social services but also the field of politics and military. The latter two turned out to be more important than estimated (if ever considered) by the previous saints of the Bhakti movement. However Gurus were quick to prepare for them. These aspects (of Sikhism) became essential when it came to protecting the spiritual and social system (of Sikhism). The Mughals in order to protect their own power, started to undermine the power of those gaining power including the Sikh Gurus, Maratha Kings. Knowledge of politics and military, and learning to defeat their tyrannical government both politcally and through use of arms and armour became necessary. ....Thus  Sikhism developed into a complete system that it is today. (in a nutshell)


I agree that there are great things to take from Sikhi, some great principles and wise words, however I still do not see the connection to god, as like I said the gurus could've just wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ to control people (for a good cause perhaps). 



> You asked "why Sikhism?" This is why Sikhism.
> *Unlike* the Western system which is focused on individual material gain, power and control (it sees only itself in every other system)... Sikhism is the latest "technology" of the development of systems of well-being; it is focused around individual and universal *well-being*. It brings into play politics and military if it needs to defend this well being.
> 
> Cheers



It very well may do, but all of that can be achieved without following Sikhi in my opinion. E.g. living by morals. 

Thanks


----------



## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



findingmyway said:


> Shanger ji,
> I am only going to comment on 2 points at this stage.
> 1) Alcohol is a mind altering substance, there is no denying this fact. That is why people like taking it. I have heard the moderation argument by so many people trying to justify themselves but it doesn't hold so if you want to drink accept it for what it is. Even 1 drink will change you (maybe not dramatically). Also there are some situations where 1 drink is enough to know someone over the edge, eg on empty stomach, when feeling down, and it is not always predictable when this would happen. If this wasn't the case why would some countries have zero limit for driving and why do health professionals have zero tolerance to alcohol in work? The choice is yours-drugs controlling your mind or you retaining full control at all times. So I stick by what I said about not drinking being empowering.



Alcohol in moderation can be good for you, for example red wine can relax the blood vessels allowing the heart to work less hard pumping blood. 

Its bad for you when taken in excess but so are a lot of other things in life. 

You also shouldn't operate heavy machinery after taking some medicine but that doesn't mean it is bad for you, a responsible individual will be fine. 

It is banned at most work places because it can easily be misused, and taken in excess, not to mention religious considerations of others. 



> 2) Japji is very deep, beautiful and meaningful. You are only scratching the surface. In my gurmat classes we spend 40 minutes each week discussing 1 pauri!! It's like me knowing only high school genetics and asking whats the point of studying it. Try reading through some things here to get you started http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/
> Here is an essay I wrote a while ago which will also give you food for thought http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33504-blind-faith-in-sikhism-is-possible.html
> 
> In school, university etc, you don't expect to spoon fed as you learn less and are less engaged. The same applies here.



If you think my analysis of those paurees are wrong, it would be better for you to explain why than to just send me links of articles and essays, especially since I am going through the SGGSJ pauree by pauree analysing it, which isnt me trying to be spoon fed. I could read the paurees I have just studied loads more times, and still reach the same conclusion.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Randip Singh said:


> Reasons why I like Sikhism:
> 
> 1) I like the idea of God being in everyone.
> 2) I like the idea that in order to realise that God you must control Krodh, Kam, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar
> ...



I understand your reasons for liking Sikhism, some of them I share. 

my first post in this thread could have been more clear, a better question would have been-

what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji,




Shanger said:


> I understand your reasons for liking Sikhism, some of them I share.
> 
> my first post in this thread could have been more clear, a better question would have been-
> 
> what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?




I still do not see why you should arrive at this conclusion. I’ve not commented so far because I’m not a Sikh and I do not believe in God, any version of it. But at no time has such a conclusion ever been necessitated, for example that Guru Nanak taught what he did with the intention to control people!?

Is it perhaps that you had previously come to the kind of conclusion in considering religions such as Christianity and Islam and now you approach Sikh with some preconceived ideas?

Below are some points you might like to consider. I do not know the facts, but it should not matter if I misrepresent and misinterpret what actually took place. Since the main point I want to make is that people are inspired and like to share their knowledge and understandings:

-Guru Nanak experienced what may be called “God-consciousness”. 
-The impression was of coming to have knowledge and understanding, including a   perspective regarding good and evil not seen before, which could only come from the experience of such a state. 
-One could therefore say that the knowledge was given by God.
-There is a sense of gratitude associated with this.
-This is expressed by way of praise for the source of such knowledge, namely God.
-Sometimes this praise comes in the form of extoling God in terms of his power. 
-Sometimes the praise is toward ethical qualities.
-Practices are prescribed whereby others could also have the same experience.
-But not everyone will be able to achieve this. For them, suggestions aimed at living a reasonably moral life have been given. 

Do you think sharing knowledge is in fact an expression of intention to ‘control people’? Would you consider generosity with regard to material objects also the same way?


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## Ishna (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

To my knowledge, the Gurus never forced anyone to do anything, therefore they were not controlling anyone.  They weren't commanding people to convert and threatening them with death if they didn't.  They didn't order people to do something one way and punish them if they didn't comply.

Please give me an example of where you think any Guru was intending to control people.

I understand many other religions are controlling.  They threaten people with Hell if they don't obey.  They kill them, ostracise them, excommunicate them from their families, take their children away from them, etcetc.  They manipulate people of lesser intellect through fear.  Our Guru's endeavoured to release people from the fear the Brahmins were controlling them with.

Judgement of the Guru's levels of spirituality is subjective.  I think Kahlil Gibran is spiritual, I think the Tao Te Ching is spiritual, I enjoy their poetry and symbolism.  I don't like the Dalai Lama's work, I don't find it spiritually satisfying.  Someone else here might be exactly the opposite.  See how it is subjective?  If you don't find the Guru's work spiritually uplifing, then you don't.  If you don't like chocolate gelati, then you don't.  If you don't like the Mona Lisa, then you don't.  Plenty of other people think they're AWESOME.

Ishna


----------



## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Seeker9 said:


> Dear Shangar Ji
> 
> I don't want to go off topic and it is probably better if you engage in a little research and learning. To that end, just Google the experiment where physicists proved the simulateneous existence of a particle in 2 places at once........how can something be in 2 places at once? Logical?? I think not!


Ok I've looked it up, the double-slit experiment yeah?
I watched this vid on it YouTube        - Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment

it is completely mind-boggling, but tht doesnt mean tht there isnt a possibility tht theres a logical answer. 

Lack of a unified theory does not necessarily indicate tht theres no possible explanation right?

I can't remember who said it, but back in the olden days, wild wild west times, one person said that the world would not advance much more technology wise, and look how far it has come since the cowboy days, there is still time. 



> If you read a bit more about the workings of the Universe at the Quantum state, you will hopefully appreciate there is no logic to explain behaviour at this level
> 
> As for the Big bang stuff, I'm not sure why the Big Bang explanation and the existence of God are mutually exclusive? In fact, you may be aware that teh Vatican officially endorsed this theory as in their mind, it left plenty of room for a Creator



I don't deny the possibility that a god created the big bang, I'm just saying that if that was the case I would expect it to be explained in the SGGSJ


> That aside, I am sure you are aware that the concept of God in Sikhism is very different from the bearded patriarch in the Abrahamic faiths....in Sikhism, the Universe and God are one....so a cyclical universe that has always existed is absolutely fine



Yeah I'm aware & I can accept that there is a  possibility of there being a cyclical universe tht god made, I would just like proof of that. 




> Now a couple more questions for you..
> 
> 1) If you are looking for supernatural evidence to prove Scriptures are not man made, I guess you will believe in the divine authenticity of the Ten Commandments which God inscribed with his fiery finger on Mount Sinai? Or are you insisting on seeing a miracle yourself now with your own eyes before you are prepared to accept anything?



Like I said I am lookin for something along the lines of- 


I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time. 
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

The fact that the earth exists, or that religious text claims that there is a god, is not enough proof for me of their being a god.



> 2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...in fact, there are many Quantum Physicists who believe in God and have a greater appreciation of the Creation through QP



the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim of the existence of something. like i said before, if i say a gigantic lion rules the world from outerspace millions of galaxies away, and then I say prove it. This is not fair as you cannot do that. 

i can give my reasons for not believing in god at a later time (or separate thread) so that theres not too many discussions in this one. 



> You have asked us to explain why we believe what we do and all the replies have been thorough and true.



maybe things would be clearer if i also ask you-
what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?

because so far I have only been told that people read SGGSJ and become enlightened, and tht if i dont feel it i am not ready. i could write my own book and say the same thing. 



> I am now asking you to do some explaining and prove to us that God does not exist.....ultimately I think we will find it comes down to personal choice...you either choose to believe or you don't.............
> :blueturban:



as i just said the burden should be on the person claiming the existence, but i can give my reasons in another thread somewhere.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Ishna said:


> To my knowledge, the Gurus never forced anyone to do anything, therefore they were not controlling anyone.  They weren't commanding people to convert and threatening them with death if they didn't.  They didn't order people to do something one way and punish them if they didn't comply.
> 
> Please give me an example of where you think any Guru was intending to control people.
> 
> ...



I'm going bed now but I'll answer this before I go then get back to where I left off. 

examples of the gurus controlling people

forbidding halal meat and alcohol, telling people that they must pray to reach salvation. those who do not pray are looked down upon. 

The 5Ks

which ever way u look at it, that is controlling people. There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation if one does not comply. Many of the instructions may be for a good cause, but tht doesnt change the fact tht theyre being controlled and made to live a certain way.


----------



## Ishna (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger, I don't believe the examples you gave fit the definition of "controlling".  Controlling is forcibly enforcing the rules.  The Guru's to my knowledge never did that.  They gave recommendations, people are free to choose or not choose.  They also explain the consequenses of each choice.

And I also realise my question was asked/answered earlier in the thread, whoops.

*So, prove to me where the Gurus were controlling people, not just giving advice.*

And watch me deny it, just as you deny all our explanations.  You will not be satisfied.

Ishna


----------



## Ishna (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Also, you've contradicted yourself, I highlight in bold red:



Shanger said:


> But it still happened right? Then I'm asking whether Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ refers to it, and how so.
> 
> 
> Can I ask you- what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ that makes you believe that it was not created by intelligent men with no special level of spirituality to control people (for a good cause perhaps)?
> ...





Shanger said:


> The fact that the earth exists, or that religious text claims that there is a god, is not enough proof for me of their being a god.
> 
> Quote:
> <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> 2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...in fact, there are many Quantum Physicists who believe in God and have a greater appreciation of the Creation through QP </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
> ...



So which one is it, Shanger?  It sounds like you've already made up your mind. 


> *a·the·ist*  –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.



You already know you don't like strawberries, we can't talk you into liking them.

Ishna


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji,




Shanger said:


> I'm going bed now but I'll answer this before I go then get back to where I left off.
> 
> examples of the gurus controlling people
> 
> ...




Again I don’t know the details and who said what. I don’t believe in any rules except when it comes to social matters involving groups of people and their living together. But when it is about what in the end comes down to “knowing oneself as one is”, rules are misleading and can only be inhibiting.

The rule about the 5ks must in fact be a social one, although even here, I see no sense of it at all. But I think you’d need to separate this from the other consideration.

Not eating halal meat is another rule which does not make any sense to me. One could emphasize on the wrongness of torture while understanding that meat is just meat. But again, the intention may be more to highlight cruelty, could it not?

Alcohol can sometimes be taken as medicine, but only if no other alternative exists. Otherwise it is harmful for sure. And there is never a good reason to drink it even a little, especially given that it leads to lapse in moral behavior. Besides it is habit forming and there is no telling if anyone will increase his intake. So isn’t it good advice to warn against consuming it? And why must anyone take such advice to be in fact a commandment? I don’t think it was meant to be as such.

Praying is another thing I don’t believe in, for obvious reasons. But again here, can’t this be seen as a prescribed practice aimed at a particular result for the good of those who follow? And looking down on those who do not follow, must this be seen as finger pointing? Could it not be interpreted as simply showing the harm of not following the path of the good?  

And being stuck in the cycle of existence, you may not agree with any of this. But the basic principle is that as long as there is no realization, one would be driven by states which lead to repeatedly being reborn again and again. So again, why must it be seen as an attempt to control? Why can’t it be seen as reminder about the harm of evil states?

I wonder if you come in from a philosophy which professes that people should be allowed to learn from experience, believing that they must surely learn how to find gratification if left alone? 
And I wonder if you are trying to control anyone in trying to point this out. ;-)


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> I'm going bed now but I'll answer this before I go then get back to where I left off.
> 
> examples of the gurus controlling people
> 
> ...




No Sikh Guru ever forbade, scorned, ordered the 5 k's, threatened anyone with anything, or made people to live a certain way. Granted this kind of behavior is common among babas and ammas running an ashram or heading of a sect here and there around the world. But in the SGGS, our only guru, are the voices of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Bhatts, and none of them stand guilty of blaming, shaming, controlling. And that takes us back to the paurees of Japuji that you posted -- which you have not yet explored with us sincerely. So you must be confusing what you have seen and heard with what is actually there. You are looking at a lot of work ahead of you if you really want to understand.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

I am a simple man. What i dont understand is the BIBLE proclaims as loudly as it possibly cna that its the WORD of GOD...why people have a tendency to "doubt" that ?? Lots of Miracles, supernatural happenings, waking the dead, turning water into wine etc etc also performed..Immaculate Conception is a ONE OFF occurence ..still people DOUBT..

The KORAN says the exact same things as the Bible does...still many people DOUBT that too...

So whats it that will really and truly CONVINCE each living soul on this planet ??...create a really doubtfre environment...hallelujah ??

People look at the Bible..doubt it..and then ask..how about the SGGS ?? does it lay the same claims as the Bible ?? the Koran ?/ if NOT  why NOT ?? I say who CARES. Live ones life as best as one can.....Guur Nnak ji never lay any claims to anything...neother do the other 33 + contributors of the SGGS...what they ALL do is that they do tell us in no uncertain terms HOW THEY EXPERIENCED the CREATOR..the ULTIMATE...JOYS..and tell us all HOW to experience the same JOYS...as best as they can..and its up to us to listen or ignore..no compulsion.


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## Seeker9 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Dear Shangar Ji

It does look like our roles have reversed as now you appear to be the one expressing blind faith ... in logic

Their is scientific evidence to backup QP yet you still want to hold out for a future logical explanation. 

Interesting isn't it???


----------



## jnanavan (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> Yeah I'm aware & I can accept that there is a possibility of there being a cyclical universe tht god made, I would just like proof of that.


 

Look at youre watch or a clock, what is the shape of the instrument we use to measure time?

The strongest shape/form in engineering is a circle or a sphere. This is why we use round tires on cars and even tanks. Hold a egg in youre palm and try to crush it with youre whole hand and you will NOT be able too.

Look at the shape of the planets, round/spheres. Look at the way the planets travel around the sun(circular).

Look at the seasons of the year spring,summer,winter,autumn then it repeats again and again year after year, and ENDLESS cycle.

Look at how rain forms, gathers h20 from the sea, collects in a cloud, cloud travels dumps water in the ground, from the ground water finds its way back into the ocean.



> Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good.


 
This is why i said you lack wisdom AND knowledge, not saying it to offend you but its obvious to me you lack basic 101's in eastern philosophy and ancient western philosophy for the ancients in the west knews almost the same thing that contemporary easterners know.

Human logic is NOT the only tool we have to distinguish from evil and good, the mind/intellect is an INFERIOR tool compared to the higher faculties which we have such as intuition/consciousness/awareness. The greeks knews about these higher faculties, the pre abrahamic middle eastern peoples knew this(kabbalah) and so did the whole ancient world.



> I accept the information about the sounds in space, but I think that it is too far-fetched to immediately associate that to the meaning of Ek-Ongkar, if you are suggesting that the Gurus were intentionally referring to the celestial orchestra, surely you would need something else more clearer/precise said since you claim it as proof that god exists?


 
You are completely missing out on the information that i presented to you and projecting youre skepticism unnecasarily. The whole point of my post was that of SOUND/VIBRATION/HARMONY/OMGKAR/GOD/UNIVERSE. You clearly missed the big picture which is that the universe is governed by hamonic principles to the extent that each planet is even emmiting harmonic tones and all the planets together form an orchestra. If the planets and the universe are governed by harmonic principles, is it not plausible even for a skeptic that the "creating force" itself might some sort of ultimate harmonic priciple?

There have been some very good replies and responses here yet you are rejecting most of them and not understanding them. I see a viscious circle going on within this thread.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Thanks for all replies, I will go read through each post and answer, so if I say something that has been proven wrong/countered in a later post, it is because I have not yet got to it. 




spnadmin said:


> Seeker9, your comments demonstrate why I see discussions of proofs and miracles going in circles.
> 
> One cannot logically prove the negative - that God does not exist, or that QP can show that God does not exist, or that the Big Bang theory proves there is not God. All science can do is argue there is insufficient evidence for x y or z.
> 
> ...



My point of view is that, if one is to follow a religious book which governs their life and claims to be connected to god (as well as the existence of a god) it is not unreasonable to expect some proof that it is genuine. 


Before I said that I would like -

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc. 
I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time. 
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

To which you replied


spnadmin said:


> Suppose someone would give examples that they honestly felt fit the bill from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And suppose you did not agree and critiqued their answers asking for more proofs and better logic. What would that accomplish?



I said that I would give a fair analysis, whether we agree that my analysis is fair only time will tell.

What would be accomplished is that I can get a better understanding of why Sikhi/SGGSJ does have a connection to god, if we come to no agreement then at least we had a discussion right? 



Seeker9 said:


> Ok but I would ultimately have to disagree as there are no scientific methods to provide the proof that you seek..so what you ask is impossible
> 
> Following on from SPN Admin Ji's comments below, here's something funny about the concept of proof from one of my favourite novels..The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams:
> 
> ...




If-
amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time. 
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

are impossible to extract from any religious book, then how do you know it is genuine? 

I don't understand the point of the book piece, the Babel fish is fictional? It sounds to me like it is making fun of the idea of god? 



Ishna said:


> actually I believe it is our conscience which tells us right from wrong. Also we have intuition. You can't come at spirituality using only half your brain.
> 
> Ishna



Logic too! You can't have a conscience without logic. 

log·ic  (ljk)
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2.
a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Confused said:


> Shanger ji,
> 
> I still do not see why you should arrive at this conclusion. I’ve not commented so far because I’m not a Sikh and I do not believe in God, any version of it. But at no time has such a conclusion ever been necessitated, for example that Guru Nanak taught what he did with the intention to control people!?


Hello
There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation unless one complies with worshipping god, that is controlling people through fear. 

I am fully aware sikhi doesn't dictate peoples lives to a large extent like other religions but that still is a method of controlling people. 



> Is it perhaps that you had previously come to the kind of conclusion in considering religions such as Christianity and Islam and now you approach Sikh with some preconceived ideas?



Maybe, though like I just said above the threats are still there.



> Below are some points you might like to consider. I do not know the facts, but it should not matter if I misrepresent and misinterpret what actually took place. Since the main point I want to make is that people are inspired and like to share their knowledge and understandings:
> 
> -Guru Nanak experienced what may be called “God-consciousness”.
> -The impression was of coming to have knowledge and understanding, including a   perspective regarding good and evil not seen before, which could only come from the experience of such a state.



Maybe Guru Nanak did experience God-consciousness, or maybe he lied or had mental issues (no disrespect). 

The idea of good and evil was not revolutionary, there have always been ideas of what is wrong and right. 




> -One could therefore say that the knowledge was given by God.
> -There is a sense of gratitude associated with this.
> -This is expressed by way of praise for the source of such knowledge, namely God.
> -Sometimes this praise comes in the form of extoling God in terms of his power.
> ...



Like I said, maybe Guru Nanak did experience God-consciousness, or maybe he lied or had mental issues (no disrespect). 




> -But not everyone will be able to achieve this. For them, suggestions aimed at living a reasonably moral life have been given.



Well then that isn't very fair is it? That goes back to my reasoning that I could write my own book and say those who cannot feel the spirituality just cannot achieve it. 



> Do you think sharing knowledge is in fact an expression of intention to ‘control people’?



Expecting people to live a certain way with threats of not reaching salvation, is controlling people. 

& it is not knowledge that holds any weight unless proven. 



> Would you consider generosity with regard to material objects also the same way?



I'm sorry I dont understand what you mean here. 

Thanks for reply


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Ishna said:


> To my knowledge, the Gurus never forced anyone to do anything, therefore they were not controlling anyone.  They weren't commanding people to convert and threatening them with death if they didn't.  They didn't order people to do something one way and punish them if they didn't comply.



Not directly, but threats of being stuck in salvation for not praying/serving the guru is controlling, especially without proof of the gurus high spirituality or connection with god.

Otherwise it is like me writing my own book, saying people must pray to god to break the cycle of reincarnation, and to justify my threats by saying that is it just me sharing knowledge because it is truth because i said so.



> Please give me an example of where you think any Guru was intending to control people.



worship god/serve guru to reach salvation

prohibition of alcohol/halal meat 



> I understand many other religions are controlling.  They threaten people with Hell if they don't obey.  They kill them, ostracise them, excommunicate them from their families, take their children away from them, etcetc.  They manipulate people of lesser intellect through fear.  Our Guru's endeavoured to release people from the fear the Brahmins were controlling them with.



I've addressed this above, & yes i do agree many other religions did extremely bad things. 




> Judgement of the Guru's levels of spirituality is subjective.  I think Kahlil Gibran is spiritual, I think the Tao Te Ching is spiritual, I enjoy their poetry and symbolism.  I don't like the Dalai Lama's work, I don't find it spiritually satisfying.  Someone else here might be exactly the opposite.  See how it is subjective?  If you don't find the Guru's work spiritually uplifing, then you don't.  If you don't like chocolate gelati, then you don't.  If you don't like the Mona Lisa, then you don't.  Plenty of other people think they're AWESOME.
> 
> Ishna



If I must pray to god to reach salvation and break the cycle of reincarnation, but I do not have the ability to see the spiritual side of SGGSJ, then that is a pretty cruel trick from god no? 

It makes no sense at all for a religious book which governs your life to be subjective.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Ishna said:


> Shanger, I don't believe the examples you gave fit the definition of "controlling".  Controlling is forcibly enforcing the rules.  The Guru's to my knowledge never did that.  They gave recommendations, people are free to choose or not choose.  They also explain the consequenses of each choice.




I aim a gun at your head, give me your money or I will shoot you. I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you give me your money, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

Pray to god or be stuck in the cycle of reincarnation, I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you pray to god/serve the guru/avoid alcohol & halal meat etc, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

Do you now see how the logic of what you said fails?



> And I also realise my question was asked/answered earlier in the thread, whoops.
> 
> *So, prove to me where the Gurus were controlling people, not just giving advice.*
> 
> ...




See example above, all the orders to pray, and avoid things, life a certain way, are controlling people, and not just advice. 



Ishna said:


> Also, you've contradicted yourself, I highlight in bold red:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good point, I don't believe in a conventional god from any religion*, is what I was supposed to say, sorry for not being more clear.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> I understand your reasons for liking Sikhism, some of them I share.
> 
> my first post in this thread could have been more clear, a better question would have been-
> 
> what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?



Maybe they were just intelligent men, but either way I liked their message.

I try not to get hung up on words:

Guru |Nanak said - Higher than truth is truthful living, i.e. don't just talk, do it. Talking about truth, spirituality etc is futile.

Their actions definitely were of men who not only talked truth, but walked truth. Thats enough for me.

This concept we get hung up on that they were from God, men of God, part of God, Sons of God etc etc are all Semitic concepts that really do not fit well with Sikhism.

So I would say you are looking in the wrong place my friend. You will never find Sikhism to be the religion for you.:interestedkudi:


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Confused said:


> Shanger ji,
> 
> Again I don’t know the details and who said what. I don’t believe in any rules except when it comes to social matters involving groups of people and their living together. But when it is about what in the end comes down to “knowing oneself as one is”, rules are misleading and can only be inhibiting.
> 
> ...



If halal meat subjects animals to torture (I think it might I'm not aware), then that is a good point. Although if animals are on the same level as plants as rocks (from Randip Singhjis article) than does it really matter considering the pain the sugar cane goes through? 



> Alcohol can sometimes be taken as medicine, but only if no other alternative exists. Otherwise it is harmful for sure. And there is never a good reason to drink it even a little, especially given that it leads to lapse in moral behavior. Besides it is habit forming and there is no telling if anyone will increase his intake. So isn’t it good advice to warn against consuming it? And why must anyone take such advice to be in fact a commandment? I don’t think it was meant to be as such.



I gave the example of red wine being good for the heart, in moderation it is absolutely ok. It seems to be a commandment as it is forbidden therefore against the words of the Gurus, who you must serve to reach salvation.




> Praying is another thing I don’t believe in, for obvious reasons. But again here, can’t this be seen as a prescribed practice aimed at a particular result for the good of those who follow? And looking down on those who do not follow, must this be seen as finger pointing? Could it not be interpreted as simply showing the harm of not following the path of the good?



If you're suggesting pray to god (whose existence you're unsure of) so that it encourages you to be good, I say can't we be good people anyway? 

Please see my example with the gun and money above. 

It is literally showing the harm of not following the gurus direct orders to pray to god and live a certain way from my understanding. 



> And being stuck in the cycle of existence, you may not agree with any of this. But the basic principle is that as long as there is no realization, one would be driven by states which lead to repeatedly being reborn again and again. So again, why must it be seen as an attempt to control? Why can’t it be seen as reminder about the harm of evil states?



Who wants to be stuck in cycle of reincarnation? If everyone believed that there was a such thing as salvation, every sane human would wish to reach it. Therefore threats of not reaching salvation work as methods to control in my opinion. 




> I wonder if you come in from a philosophy which professes that people should be allowed to learn from experience, believing that they must surely learn how to find gratification if left alone? And I wonder if you are trying to control anyone in trying to point this out. ;-)


I don't think I understand what you're saying, can you please reword it a little more simpler for my sake. 

Thanks


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



spnadmin said:


> No Sikh Guru ever forbade, scorned, ordered the 5 k's, threatened anyone with anything, or made people to live a certain way. Granted this kind of behavior is common among babas and ammas running an ashram or heading of a sect here and there around the world. But in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only guru, are the voices of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Bhatts, and none of them stand guilty of blaming, shaming, controlling. And that takes us back to the paurees of Japuji that you posted -- which you have not yet explored with us sincerely. So you must be confusing what you have seen and heard with what is actually there. You are looking at a lot of work ahead of you if you really want to understand.



Please read my example of controlling but disguising it as you making a choice through your own freewill having opitons- 

I aim a gun at your head, give me your money or I will shoot you. I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you give me your money, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

I gave my thoughts on the paurees in terms of what I thought they meant, I read each line and then gave my interpretation, along with whether there was anything special/spiritual about them meaning a regular human could not have wrote  them, I was waiting for someone to give their thoughts in return. Just because I didnt write a long essay does not mean that I did not explore it sincerely. If there is anything wrong my analysis please share you views. 

Thanks


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I am a simple man. What i dont understand is the BIBLE proclaims as loudly as it possibly cna that its the WORD of GOD...why people have a tendency to "doubt" that ?? Lots of Miracles, supernatural happenings, waking the dead, turning water into wine etc etc also performed..Immaculate Conception is a ONE OFF occurence ..still people DOUBT..
> 
> The KORAN says the exact same things as the Bible does...still many people DOUBT that too...



I (and many others) have not seen those miracles you listed (unless you were being sarcastic) but that would influence an opinion greatly. 

The doubts are there (with regards to quran and bible) because of errors in those books, meaning that they cannot be from god if they have errors. 




> So whats it that will really and truly CONVINCE each living soul on this planet ??...create a really doubtfre environment...hallelujah ??
> 
> People look at the Bible..doubt it..and then ask..how about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? does it lay the same claims as the Bible ?? the Koran ?/ if NOT  why NOT ?? I say who CARES. Live ones life as best as one can.....Guru Nnak ji never lay any claims to anything...neother do the other 33 + contributors of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...what they ALL do is that they do tell us in no uncertain terms HOW THEY EXPERIENCED the CREATOR..the ULTIMATE...JOYS..and tell us all HOW to experience the same JOYS...as best as they can..and its up to us to listen or ignore..no compulsion.



The claims are there in my opinion, SGGSJ claims that there is a god, and that not praying will result in being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation. 

I'm just asking how do we know that theyre not lying? You imply that we can experience the same joys, does that mean that a person who reads SGGSJ with an open mind who does not feel the spiritual side, is cursed?


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## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Seeker9 said:


> Dear Shangar Ji
> 
> It does look like our roles have reversed as now you appear to be the one expressing blind faith ... in logic
> 
> ...



I already told you that I know about the double split experiment was from that youtube vid, which suggested that are explanations, but none with have an universal agreement from the scientists. 

I am not putting blind faith in logic, I am just not going to immediately attribute mind-boggling happenings to god. 

If there is scientific evidence to back up QP, then why were you using QP as an example of something which could not be proven?


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

'Shangerji

I myself believe that Sikhism allows for the concept of "conditional free will." There are those who do not agree and see free will as completely absent in Sikhism.

That however is something of a red herring in the context of this discussion  - though not completely. More to the point is to know where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji you see anything that amounts to this idea



> I aim a gun at your head, give me your money or I will shoot you. I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you give me your money, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.



What is the analogy? 

First, in terms of proportionality, what have you found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is tantamount to a recommendation which, not taken, leads to the consequences of robbery and homicide? The recommendation you are describing is not really a recommendation, but a threat.

Second, in terms of all the different kinds of human concerns, as discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nothing there is really hypothetical. Poetry it is. But it is poetry that resounds with the real life experiences of ordinary people who were confronted with moral and ethical choices,  in wealthy and powerful places in society, and among the powerless and poor. Sometimes choices taken led to misery - as in  shabads where sexual dissipation is the subject. Sometimes these shabads are about choices that were made by the powerful and that wreaked havoc and misery on the lives of others - as Guru Nanak's hymn about the destruction of Lahore.

Guru Nanak is not recommending anything. He is portraying with powerful examples what the consequences of our actions are likely to be. He is describing the heavy moral and psychological cost to ourselves and others, when we decide to retreat from our duty to be conscious of morality and to make moral choices. Instead we veer off in directions that seem "safe" "easy" "clever" or "prudent" when we are actually driven by ego's desire to play our cards right and escape immediate discomforts. 

Guru Nanak tells us that is wrong-headed thinking, and is the real cause of our suffering and the damage we do to others. So to borrow your analogy: "Someone" is not pointing a gun at us. Rather we are pointing the gun at ourselves. And the choice is to put the gun down and be truly human, or commit moral suicide.


----------



## Seeker9 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Dear Shangar Ji

Please re-read my posts

You had dismissed religion on the basis of logic

I asked you if you were willing to dismiss Science as well as therer are aspects of Science
that defy logic

You asked for an example and I give you one

so my point is that I do not accept your logic argument

as stated before, I do not accept your esoteric knowledge before its time requirement either unless you want to worship the builders of stonehenge and the pyramids


re supernatural evidence, I see you have not answered my question about The Ten Commandments which woul surely satisfy your requiremnt of divine origins?

from my phone so apologies for quality


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



jnanavan said:


> Look at youre watch or a clock, what is the shape of the instrument we use to measure time?
> 
> The strongest shape/form in engineering is a circle or a sphere. This is why we use round tires on cars and even tanks. Hold a egg in youre palm and try to crush it with youre whole hand and you will NOT be able too.
> 
> ...



Yeah the universe/earth has amazing feats and great design, but that doesn't mean that it had to have been a God who created it. 

why do many animals go extinct, why do thousands of small turtles etc get eaten before making adulthood, why do millions of sperm get wasted when only 1 is required , many scientists say that less than 1 in a million planets in our galaxy and other galaxies may be able to support life. In our own solar system just 1 out of 9 planets is habitable. 

You must also take the negatives along with the positives. 





> This is why i said you lack wisdom AND knowledge, not saying it to offend you but its obvious to me you lack basic 101's in eastern philosophy and ancient western philosophy for the ancients in the west knews almost the same thing that contemporary easterners know.
> 
> Human logic is NOT the only tool we have to distinguish from evil and good, the mind/intellect is an INFERIOR tool compared to the higher faculties which we have such as intuition/consciousness/awareness. The greeks knews about these higher faculties, the pre abrahamic middle eastern peoples knew this(kabbalah) and so did the whole ancient world.


 
Yeah you're right I don't know much about history at all. 

We use logic for every thought process

log·ic  (ljk)
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2.
a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.

Intellect
in·tel·lect  (ntl-kt)
n.
1.
a. The ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.
b. The ability to think abstractly or profoundly. See Synonyms at mind.
2. A person of great intellectual ability.

Logic and intellect and not mutually exclusive. It is to do with using the knowledge we have to reason. 

What are these higher faculties you speak of? 



> You are completely missing out on the information that i presented to you and projecting youre skepticism unnecasarily. The whole point of my post was that of SOUND/VIBRATION/HARMONY/OMGKAR/GOD/UNIVERSE. You clearly missed the big picture which is that the universe is governed by hamonic principles to the extent that each planet is even emmiting harmonic tones and all the planets together form an orchestra. If the planets and the universe are governed by harmonic principles, is it not plausible even for a skeptic that the "creating force" itself might some sort of ultimate harmonic priciple?


 
I fully understood what you said. & yeh there is a chance that the creating force might be some sort of ultimate harmonic principle. If you read what I said, I haven't dismissed that possibility. But for now that's all it is, a possibility. Do you deny that there is a chance that there is no relation to the celestial orchestra at all? Either way do you honestly believe that that is the only proof required to show gods existence? 



> There have been some very good replies and responses here yet you are rejecting most of them and not understanding them. I see a viscious circle going on within this thread.



I already said I haven't dismissed your point on the celestial orchestra. I also gave my thoughts and interpretation of the pauree you posted, if we agree on nothing with respect to whether SGGSJ is from god, at least we can clarify the meanings of shabads.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Randip Singh said:


> Maybe they were just intelligent men, but either way I liked their message.
> 
> I try not to get hung up on words:
> 
> ...


So that we are clear-

Are you saying that, you do not care if there is a god or if sikhi is connected to god, but that you only care that the Gurus were good men who taught good morals/principles led by example etc? 



spnadmin said:


> 'Shangerji
> 
> I myself believe that Sikhism allows for the concept of "conditional free will." There are those who do not agree and see free will as completely absent in Sikhism.
> 
> ...



Sorry, here it is-
Pray to god or be stuck in the cycle of reincarnation, I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you pray to god/serve the guru/avoid alcohol & halal meat etc, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

Basically I am getting at the illusion of freewill.




> First, in terms of proportionality, what have you found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is tantamount to a recommendation which, not taken, leads to the consequences of robbery and homicide? The recommendation you are describing is not really a recommendation, but a threat.



Not reaching salvation personally bothers me much more robbery. & being told I will never reach it without praying to god acts as a thread and not a recommendation. 



> Second, in terms of all the different kinds of human concerns, as discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nothing there is really hypothetical. Poetry it is. But it is poetry that resounds with the real life experiences of ordinary people who were confronted with moral and ethical choices,  in wealthy and powerful places in society, and among the powerless and poor. Sometimes choices not taken led to misery - as in the many shabads where sexual dissipation is the subject. Sometimes these shabads are about choices that were made by the powerful and that wreaked havoc and misery on the lives of others - as Guru Nanak's hymn about the destruction of Lahore.



I agree there is much to learn from that can benefit everyone. 



> Guru Nanak is not recommending anything. He is portraying with powerful examples what the consequences of our actions are likely to be. He is describing the heavy moral and psychological cost to ourselves and others, when we decide to retreat from our duty to make moral choices. Instead we veer off in directions that seem "safe" or "prudent" when we are actually driven by ego's desire to play our cards right and escape immediate discomforts.


One can make good moral choices in life without praying to god, but according to SGGSJ they will not reach salvation. 



> Guru Nanak tells us that is wrong-headed thinking, and is the real cause of our suffering and the damage we do to others. So to borrow your analogy: "Someone" is not pointing a gun at us. Rather we are pointing the gun at ourselves. And the choice is to put the gun down and be truly human, or commit moral suicide.



Must I pray to god to be truly human?  Can I not reach salvation from living a good life of morals alone?


----------



## Seeker9 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> I don't understand the point of the book piece, the Babel fish is fictional? It sounds to me like it is making fun of the idea of god?



It is indeed fictional and funny which I noted in my post and yes, it is making fun out of those who have discussions about God and the faith Vs logic arguments.....

I thought it was amusing and appropriate that's allwinkingmunda


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

shangerji

I think we have hit pay dirt. This is where your misunderstanding lies



> One can make good moral choices in life without praying to god, but according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ they will not reach salvation.



Not what Guru Nanak is saying at all. You have conflated or compressed several ideas, making moral choices, salvation, and praying to God. Yes making good moral choices does not entail praying to God. But... Think for a moment. Why does prayer, I prefer bhagati to prayer, bring you closer to God? Who is this God? Where is this God?  What is the moral person getting closer to? Is the moral person who makes good choices that far away from the God that Guru Nanak was mindful of? Does that person experience Guru Nanak's idea of salvation?

I want to stay on task, regarding your misunderstandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Discussing faith versus logic will get us nowhere and it will allow right and wrong understandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to get lost in the swamp of unresolvable philosophical questions.


----------



## Seeker9 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



spnadmin said:


> Discussing faith versus logic will get us nowhere and it will allow right and wrong understandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to get lost in the swamp of unresolvable philosophical questions.



Dear SPN Admin Ji

I accept your point

However, I think if someone is querying the validity of Scripture, then using that same Scripture as the source of its own proof is not going to make much headway...

I think we have seen that in terms of the detailed posts from many contributors and how they have been responded to

This is why I was trying an alternative approach, but as you have noted already, we appear to be going in circles there as well and Shangar Ji has failed to answer a couple of issues I raised, so sadly not very fruitful

I will sit back and see how this progresses

Thanks

R


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Seeker9 said:


> Dear Shangar Ji
> 
> Please re-read my posts
> 
> ...



I asked which aspects, and you said the double split thing. Then you said that scientific evidence backs up QP. I don't understand your stance? 




> You asked for an example and I give you one
> 
> so my point is that I do not accept your logic argument



please see above, i am confused on your views with regards to the double split experiment. 



> as stated before, I do not accept your esoteric knowledge before its time requirement either unless you want to worship the builders of stonehenge and the pyramids



Why would I worship those builders? Especially since I don't know who (or what) it was who came up with the design/instructions, if the builders were puppets it makes no sense to worship them. If someone had've claimed responsibility with proof, then I could consider them special. 



> re supernatural evidence, I see you have not answered my question about The Ten Commandments which woul surely satisfy your requiremnt of divine origins?
> 
> from my phone so apologies for quality




What are you suggesting it is about the ten commandments that would make me consider them to be special?


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Seeker ji

I was not referring to you. ESP maybe? That I was just thinking about you and how genuine you are in your questions and comments. I always feel so bad when you show up just when a thread is strangling on its own tangles and knots. In this case, it started a day or 2 ago.

The title of thread is Sikhism is Right/From God. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been the source of Sikh belief as far as I am aware. So statements that based wrong beliefs about Sikhism on wrong understandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji need to be refuted. IMHO the faith/logic distinction takes the thread away from where it began.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shangerji



> What are you suggesting it is about the ten commandments that would make me consider them to be special?



Seeker09 ji is trying to figure out exactly what meets your criterion of "special." He asked you that before.

Does anyone else think we have already crossed the line that divides reasonable questions about the fundamentals of Sikhi and outright insults to Sikhs, Sikhism and Sikh Gurus? I do.


----------



## Seeker9 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> I asked which aspects, and you said the double split thing. Then you said that scientific evidence backs up QP. I don't understand your stance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry..I thought i had stated it clearly

let me restate it a different way...you can't dismiss religion on the basis of logic if you are unwilling to dismiss Science on the basis of logic as well...the experiment we have referenced proves that QP defies logic. So be consistent in your beliefs

you have stated numerous times that one of your tests for divine origins of Scripture would be if they contained evidence of special knowledge that was ahead of their time

Many theories exist as to the construction of Stonehenge and the Pyramids but no one knows for certain. Both structures display an impressive level of knowledge of maths and astronomy well beyond that time. Surely that satisfies your requirement? If not please state why not 

I think you also stated you would accept something supernatural, not necessarily a miracle as to proof of divne origins. there are many millions of devout followers who believe the tablets containing the 10 commandments were inscribed by the fiery finger of God on Mt Sinai. Surely that satisfies your requirement? If not please state why not

Thanks


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji you are probably looking for this kind of miracle,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/34187-did-mandir-rotate-bhagat-namdev-ji.html

Literal might say what you want to hear.  Probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of Hindus believe literally in that as a miracle of God for Bhagat Ramdev ji whose bani is included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  So here is proof positive to join and become a sikh.  By the way I don't believe in that as a miracle or literal but more as stated spiritually in that thread.

It will be a great shame though if that line of thought is what it is going to take for you to become a sikh.

Once a sikh, as you enrich your spirituality and throw some of the action-reaction or scientifically complete explanations or asking people to basically substantiate miracles in Sikhism before accepting, you yourself will start providing spiritual answers.  You will see the futility of looking for miracles.  You will see the futility of looking for God's chosen messengers.  In sikhism no one has shortage of God or over-abundance.  The challenge is discovery and practical living that entails.

Your other questions regarding meat, 5K's and the like are per Sikh Rehat Maryada and there is lot of information in that part of SPN forums.

Sorry if the above is little direct.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

_



			Does anyone else think we have already crossed the line that divides reasonable questions about the fundamentals of Sikhi and outright insults to Sikhs, Sikhism and Sikh Gurus? I do.
		
Click to expand...

_

Dear SPN Admin Ji

I agree

But it doesn't surprise me as we have been down similar routes before with others

Like I said earlier, if someone has already dismissed Scripture, using the same Scripture to convince them otherwise is unlikely to yield results 

It boils down to a fundamental choice of believing or not believing and there is no middle ground

Our young disbelievers have plenty of time to explore in their own ways and make further choices later on

But if they come here asking for Scientific proofs or Supernatural proofs they aren't going to get them!


----------



## findingmyway (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



spnadmin said:


> Does anyone else think we have already crossed the line that divides reasonable questions about the fundamentals of Sikhi and outright insults to Sikhs, Sikhism and Sikh Gurus? I do.



Completely agree with you. Shanger is ignoring all the logic given such as about the things that apparently are to control people and insists on repeating such points without evidence. However, I am going to try and do the decent thing by responding to some points raised.



Shanger said:


> Before I said that I would like -
> Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.
> I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
> Or an explanation of how the world was made.
> Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.



Now if we were to tell you about a miracle or future prediction you would deride it as not being logical so its a catch-22 situation!! The beauty of Sikhi is it all makes perfect sense. Belief in miracles and prophecies is not encouraged-quite the opposite as they don't make sense. There are absolutely no inconsistencies or statements that don't make sense to even non-Sikh scholars. If you are looking for a miracle then Sikhism is def not for you as Sikhism is very pragmatic. It is not about following a 'book' but it is the  teachings that matter. It is the philosophy and the guidance that  matters. That has withstood scrutiny time and again from various  sources.

Your information about alcohol is wrong but I don't want to dwell on it. More information is here http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/31124-alcohol-as-parshad.html#post132035 as well as several other threads. You want to drink it-no problem no-one is stopping you but that does not make it right or healthy.

Your understanding of reincarnation is poor. There are several threads about it so happy reading! Here is one to get you started, make sure you read all the way through http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/9096-reincarnation-11.html#post134524. In no way is it a threat. I think spnadmin ji's analogy with the gun is more appropriate than yours.

Prayer is for ourselves, not for God. This has also been discussed previously. You are also not looking very deeply into Japji Sahib. How can I summarise here when I've said each pauri takes 1 hour discussion. If you really want to delve further and try and understand then you have a lot of studying to do-looking at 1 English translation is really not enough. Here is a starting point http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/34163-study-japuji-sahib-dr-karminder-singh.html

I actually find your statement about controlling people quite offensive. The Guru's gave their life for FREEDOM. They never promoted conversion or forced their beliefs on others. In fact they encouraged people to be nobel whatever path they were walking on. Several Guru's and other martyr's gave up their life so people could CHOOSE their pwn life path, so the Moghul emperor would stop converting people by force whether they were Sikh or Hindu. On what level does that show controlling behaviour? How many other people in the entire history of the world have sacrificed themselves for others (not their own followers or religion)? Very very few.

When people became Sikhs it was always of their own free will. When people sacrificed themselves for the principles of Sikhi is was of their own free will. The Moghuls were forcing people yet still people sacrificed themselves to join the Sikh army and fight repression. Before the Sikh Guru's, very few took a stand against the Moghuls. Ask the survivors of the other Sikh genocides and they will all tell you they are Sikh and risked their lives of their own free will and out of love not fear of God. The only way you are doomed by not embracing is not the wrath of God but by letting our mind and our desires control us. We miss out on the peace and serenity that spirituality offers us.

At the end of the day you choose whether you want to follow Sikh philosophy or not. You have been given a lot of good points why Sikh philosophy is inspiring. Now it is entirely your choice whether you want to explore things further for yourself or not. I have no desire to convert you so the choice is yours and yours alone. Unless you explore you will never understand :noticemunda:


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Before I start replying I need to ask something which could save us time

is anyone here saying that-

1] SGGSJ is from god, there is no proof based on logic, when you read it if you are ready you will become enlightened, if you are not ready, then you will not become enlightened. It is dependent on whether god has given you the ability.

or

2] there is no evidence of god in SGGSJ because it cannot be prove, I am sikh because I have faith, and i accept that there is no logical proof. 

or

3] SGGSJ is from god, there is proof of gods existence and the connection to god within. 

because if it is the 1st 2 i guess there is no point continuing this discussion. 

if its the last one then theres a discussion to be had. 

I am just getting confused because some of you guys are in disagreement with each others, some guys say that it cannot be proven, yet others say proof of God is in SGGSJ.


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji you are so mis-placed it is not funny.  Your upbringing has to be through idol worship or people as Gods, babey, sant, mahants, etc., and people as Gods's messenger and everything else being below it.  I may be wrong but since you want to stay undisclosed I respect that.

Sikhism does not de-link God from people or put one person above the other in access to or presence of God.  Gurbani is written by God's people and read by God's people.  All these people believe in God without duress.

If you can not even understand this basic openness I don't know how you can converse with a sikh in philosophical discourse.

It appears you are pretty stuck my friend.  You really need to truly open your eyes to the inclusiveness, equality and openness in Sikhism.

I really wish you unshackle yourself and go beyond "me can ask most interesting questions to put people at ill ease".

We are still hoping but I have seen no signs other than more sneekiness.

Good luck.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Shanger (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



> Sikhism does not de-link God from people or put one person above the other in access to or presence of God.  Gurbani is written by God's people and read by God's people.



That is a contradiction.

& yes Sikhi does, if I don't pray I will not reach salvation, someone who does pray has a better chance of reaching salvation (assuming they live a good life etc).




Ambarsaria said:


> Shanger ji you are so mis-placed it is not funny.  Your upbringing has to be through idol worship or people as Gods, babey, sant, mahants, etc., and people as Gods's messenger and everything else being below it.  I may be wrong but since you want to stay undisclosed I respect that.
> 
> If you can not even understand this basic openness I don't know how you can converse with a sikh in philosophical discourse.
> 
> ...



Translation: if you do not agree with what I say you are mis-placed and your mind is not open, you are stuck etc. 

I fully understand the concept of god in sikhi, something which humans cannot comprehend, something which does not have a start or an end, etc. Above the 5 senses of humans etc. 




> I really wish you unshackle yourself and go beyond "me can ask most interesting questions to put people at ill ease".
> 
> We are still hoping but I have seen no signs other than more sneekiness.
> 
> ...



Deleted a personal insult. If you are tired of the reactions of others toward you, and "they hold no weight" according to you, then why do you even bother to reply? Formal warning, long overdue. Infraction will be issued.


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji I Believe the little aggressive dialog is allowing to peel the layers of your thought process.

Let me comment on couple of things,"That is a contradiction.

& yes Sikhi does, if I don't pray I will not reach salvation, someone who does pray has a better chance of reaching salvation (assuming they live a good life etc)."
​That is a bad understanding.  Praying is one small part, understanding is the biggest part.  You can pray all you like you ain't going anywhere without understanding.  So your logic is reversed.​"I fully understand the concept of god in sikhi, something which humans cannot comprehend, something which does not have a start or an end, etc. Above the 5 senses of humans etc."​In Sikhism we see and continuously develop our understanding and comprehension of God.  This includes use of all five senses, our body including the brain.  However given the vastness of God as described in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, it will be foolishness for anyone to claim complete understanding of God.​I hope the above makes sense.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> Basically I'm asking what reasons you have for believing in Sikhi.
> 
> I ask this because at the moment I'm reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I am near the beginning and so far I have not read anything that convinces me, that could change though I have much to read.
> 
> ...



Shanger ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have read all the 88 posts and it seems that none of the respondents are clear what your true intentions,objectives, reasoning are to start this thread.

Let me ask you a few questions as you have asked many to the participants in here.

1. The title of the post,*"Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?"*

a. Define *God* in your own thinking for me so I can understand where you are coming from.

b. How do you differentiate between Abrahamical God, or any other God you may have in your mind?

c. What do u mean by *"Right/From God?"* Please elaborate with concrete examples.As you claim not to be a Muslim then your example of Islam is irrelevant as you do not believe in it.

d. Why is your faith *"UNDISCLOSED"*?

e. Isn't it fair that you share what your faith is before questioning things about Sikhi that you do not understand or is it insecurity on your part? if it is then why, if I may ask?

Be brave and disclose yourself so we can learn from each other. Honesty is the cornerstone of every human being who wants to breed goodness within so he/she can share with others.

So, I hope we can have an open and honest discussion for the sole purpose of learning from each other. You claim to have seen our cards yet you are hiding yours for the reasons only known to you. Put your cards on the table for all of us to see so we can play a fair hand.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_member14 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji,

First of all I need to remind you that my argument with you is mostly with regard to your projection of wrong intention on the part of those whose thoughts have been expressed in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You say that their aim is to ‘control people’ which up until now I interpreted more or less as ‘influence uncalled for’, but no real thought to control. But now I see that you have suggested, although only for the sake of argument, that they could in fact have lied. This means that you really think that they did have in mind to do what you claim they did.

Why do I bother to give my own comments, after all it is none of my business? One reason is that I like to argue ;-), or rather, I like to discuss, but there is also that I’d like to get some sense into you and yes, this is based on the judgment that I am right and you are wrong! Is this trying to control you? And what if interspersed are motivations influenced by kindness, by giving and by compassion, would you still think it is manipulative?

========



> Me: I still do not see why you should arrive at this conclusion. I’ve not commented so far because I’m not a Sikh and I do not believe in God, any version of it. But at no time has such a conclusion ever been necessitated, for example that Guru Nanak taught what he did with the intention to control people!?





> You:
> There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation unless one complies with worshipping god, that is controlling people through fear.
> 
> I am fully aware sikhi doesn't dictate peoples lives to a large extent like other religions but that still is a method of controlling people.




C: “Threatening”, this would be with evil intention conditioned by self-love and aversion. If reincarnation is sincerely believed to be a fact and if praying to God amongst other things, is sincerely seen as being the way out, how does conveying this message to other people qualify it as a threat, especially since that person himself does the same? It is clear that *you* do not believe in the concept and may have at one point read such message as a threat, but would this not have been due to your own misreading and inherent aversion?

========


> Quote Me:Below are some points you might like to consider. I do not know the facts, but it should not matter if I misrepresent and misinterpret what actually took place. Since the main point I want to make is that people are inspired and like to share their knowledge and understandings:
> 
> -Guru Nanak experienced what may be called “God-consciousness”.
> -The impression was of coming to have knowledge and understanding, including a perspective regarding good and evil not seen before, which could only come from the experience of such a state.





> You:
> Maybe Guru Nanak did experience God-consciousness, or maybe he lied or had mental issues (no disrespect).



C: Well, isn’t the problem in that you are *insisting on the negative interpretation*? Or are you here not so much to clarify things but in fact to test other people’s intelligence?

=======


> You:
> The idea of good and evil was not revolutionary, there have always been ideas of what is wrong and right.


C: No one has claimed that. What is suggested are attitudes of mind and practices leading to the “development” of good and the reduction of evil. But so what even if they are not revolutionary and were taught by other people in previous times? Can’t people just share their understandings and can’t others compile these into a comprehensive set of teachings?

=======


> Quote Me:-One could therefore say that the knowledge was given by God.
> -There is a sense of gratitude associated with this.
> -This is expressed by way of praise for the source of such knowledge, namely God.
> -Sometimes this praise comes in the form of extoling God in terms of his power.
> ...





> You:
> Like I said, maybe Guru Nanak did experience God-consciousness, or maybe he lied or had mental issues (no disrespect).



C: And like I said, were you not insisting on the negative, you’d not pursue with this line of enquiry, unless of course, you are in fact testing other people’s intelligence.

=======


> Quote Me:-But not everyone will be able to achieve this. For them, suggestions aimed at living a reasonably moral life have been given.





> You: Well then that isn't very fair is it? That goes back to my reasoning that I could write my own book and say those who cannot feel the spirituality just cannot achieve it.



C: No, this is not a case of judging anyone in particular and condemning them. But the fact is still there, that people are *not* equal in terms of ability to understand. Indeed they are not equal in the tendency to “misunderstand”. Not everyone can be encouraged to think good and act rightly, and of those who can, not all will have the understanding to “develop” those qualities. This should not stop those who teach, from adapting in accordance to the situation having taken into account both the person’s capacity as well as his present mental state.

========


> Quote Me: Do you think sharing knowledge is in fact an expression of intention to ‘control people’?





> You: Expecting people to live a certain way with threats of not reaching salvation, is controlling people.
> 
> & it is not knowledge that holds any weight unless proven.



C: Again, you read it as a threat, whereas others will read it as good suggestion. Why is it? I do not believe that you have a limited capacity to discern and in principle come up with possible alternatives as to what state of mind apprehends any statement made by others. What I keep seeing however, is cynicism on your part and the insistence on any reasoning issuing forth from this.

Regarding the rightness or wrongness of the particular teaching, you insist on proof, the kind which you are used to thinking about in matters of science and other convention. For example, you may be satisfied with proofs such as that the earth revolves around the sun as given by certain fields of knowledge. But this is preferred thinking on a matter which is limited in scope. I mean, someone cynical, how far could he go in trying to argue against the fact that the earth revolves around the sun? You are dealing with limited data here and one which need not take into account states of mind, whether this is tainted by ignorance, attachment, aversion, wrong understanding or right understanding. 

When it comes to such matters as karma and rebirth however, there is either right understanding or there is wrong understanding with subsequent influence from attachment, aversion, faith etc. Someone who has high tendency to wrong understanding, what “evidence” would ever satisfy him? Indeed he’d insist on the kind of evidence such as that got by science, which to begin with, is a wrong approach, but even then would he not likely talk himself out of believing any evidence given down the road? And why is this?

The reason is that this is in fact a matter of “understanding” an aspect of experience where cause and effect are mental phenomena, and this is very different from that which is derived from conventional observation. In this regard, you with the influence of science are therefore in a totally different position from someone else, particularly those in India during ancient times, for whom the idea of karma and rebirth is more or less an accepted fact. In other words, you with your doubt and they with their faith / confidence are not to be compared.

And just to let you know, these same people could well be good scientists if they were inclined to, having separated the one kind of observation and thinking from the other. Indeed they’d not look for evidence for rebirth as in someone claiming and providing evidence that they were this or that person in a previous life. This is not what arouses their confidence, but rather the understanding of mind, including distinguishing what is cause from what is result.

========





> Quote Me: Would you consider generosity with regard to material objects also the same way?





> You:
> I'm sorry I dont understand what you mean here.



C: When the urge to help someone arises and you do it, does it impress upon you as a case of ‘control’?


----------



## Archived_member14 (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji,




> Quote Me:
> Not eating halal meat is another rule which does not make any sense to me. One could emphasize on the wrongness of torture while understanding that meat is just meat. But again, the intention may be more to highlight cruelty, could it not?





> You:
> If halal meat subjects animals to torture (I think it might I'm not aware), then that is a good point. Although if animals are on the same level as plants as rocks (from Randip Singhjis article) than does it really matter considering the pain the sugar cane goes through?




C: No, ‘sentient beings’ do not include plants or bacteria, not to speak of rocks and stones. Birth, aging, sickness and death are related to the one and not to the other.

=======


> Quote Me: Alcohol can sometimes be taken as medicine, but only if no other alternative exists. Otherwise it is harmful for sure. And there is never a good reason to drink it even a little, especially given that it leads to lapse in moral behavior. Besides it is habit forming and there is no telling if anyone will increase his intake. So isn’t it good advice to warn against consuming it? And why must anyone take such advice to be in fact a commandment? I don’t think it was meant to be as such.






> You:
> I gave the example of red wine being good for the heart, in moderation it is absolutely ok. It seems to be a commandment as it is forbidden therefore against the words of the Gurus, who you must serve to reach salvation.



C: Good for the physical heart does not mean good for the mind, so to speak. ‘Forbidden’, why can’t it be read simply as an advice? Is the problem not your own tainted perception?

=======


> Quote Me: Praying is another thing I don’t believe in, for obvious reasons. But again here, can’t this be seen as a prescribed practice aimed at a particular result for the good of those who follow? And looking down on those who do not follow, must this be seen as finger pointing? Could it not be interpreted as simply showing the harm of not following the path of the good?





> You: If you're suggesting pray to god (whose existence you're unsure of) so that it encourages you to be good, I say can't we be good people anyway?




C: I’m not unsure, I know, and think about it only when reading and discussing with others. There is no reason for me to conceive of the idea at all otherwise. 

I wasn’t talking about the capacity for good, which people have regardless of whether they encounter any religion, but which if they do not have, religion can’t help anyway. What I was pointing to was the “development” of particular kinds of good aimed at mental purity. 

Can we be good people without guidance? It depends on the capacity of each individual. But surely no one who does have that capacity and has any inkling regarding its true value, would reject any encouragement given by others, would they? 

========


> You:
> Please see my example with the gun and money above.
> It is literally showing the harm of not following the gurus direct orders to pray to god and live a certain way from my understanding.




C: No, that was your cynicism talking.

========


> Quote Me: And being stuck in the cycle of existence, you may not agree with any of this. But the basic principle is that as long as there is no realization, one would be driven by states which lead to repeatedly being reborn again and again. So again, why must it be seen as an attempt to control? Why can’t it be seen as reminder about the harm of evil states?





> You:
> Who wants to be stuck in cycle of reincarnation? If everyone believed that there was a such thing as salvation, every sane human would wish to reach it. Therefore threats of not reaching salvation work as methods to control in my opinion.



C: So it is *not* a threat, but a good reminder in the eyes of those who *understand*. And those who teach it know that “fear” will not accomplish anything good. They were not however, required to anticipate objections from people like you who not only can’t appreciate the good intentions involved, but go on to project so much negativity into the situation.

=========


> Quote Me: I wonder if you come in from a philosophy which professes that people should be allowed to learn from experience, believing that they must surely learn how to find gratification if left alone? And I wonder if you are trying to control anyone in trying to point this out. ;-)





> You: I don't think I understand what you're saying, can you please reword it a little more simpler for my sake.




C: I get the impression that you believe that people have the capacity for good and would achieve fulfillment on their own anyway. This has led you to perceive religion as more or less unnecessarily coming in the way if not in fact a threat. On the other hand, although I do see harm in certain teachings, when it comes to such examples as you have given, namely advice against consumption of alcohol and the teaching on karma and rebirth, this I perceive as being in fact most necessary. The rule being that, left alone, we’d move towards ever greater tendency to ignorance and craving and this includes mistaking evil states for good and wrong understanding for right, leading to courses of action ultimately unbeneficial, but judged otherwise.


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 26, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Confused ji your contribution is appreciated at the philosophical level and its relationship to day to day living and social/personal interactions.

You certainly have an "iota" of more patience than me.winkingmunda
Do you still participate in the Buddhism thread as I want to learn certain things?  I had two friends who were of Buddhist heritage (I don't know their level of adherence or understanding), but they were quite different in their psyche that came across.

Before starting anything there I would study the threads already present.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> So that we are clear-
> 
> Are you saying that, you do not care if there is a god or if sikhi is connected to god, but that you only care that the Gurus were good men who taught good morals/principles led by example etc?


 
Anwers:

I only care that the Guru's were JUST men rather than Good men.

Question:

What do you mean by God? Are we talikng Semitic religions now? The concept of "God" in Sikhism is very different!


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Confused said:


> Shanger ji,
> 
> 
> C: No, ‘sentient beings’ do not include plants or bacteria, not to speak of rocks and stones. Birth, aging, sickness and death are related to the one and not to the other.
> ...


 
Birth, aging, sickness and death are all attributes of plants!! 

So got to disagree with you here totally! Every single Jain on this planet would disagree too!

Also Bani clearly places Human beings at one level and animal, plants and rocks at another level. I can furnish quotes.


----------



## Archived_member14 (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Ambarsaria ji,



			
				
Do you still participate in the Buddhism thread as I want to learn certain things?  I had two friends who were of Buddhist heritage (I don't know their level of adherence or understanding) said:
			
		

> Do you mean the Buddhist discussion group that I mentioned here once?
> I’ve not participated there for a while and have in fact been reading very little. But here is the link:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/
> 
> One thing though, the discussions there most of the time, involve arguments with Buddhists from other understanding and for an outsider this may appear like constant battle taking place. But for some of us, it is an opportunity to sort our thoughts out if not also to try and help. No reason to be put off. However, being someone who would still not be able to differentiate who comes from which camp, if you’d like to, you could pose your questions here on SPN under the Interfaith section. I’ll try as best as I can to answer you.


----------



## Archived_member14 (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Randip ji,




Randip Singh said:


> Birth, aging, sickness and death are all attributes of plants!!
> 
> So got to disagree with you here totally! Every single Jain on this planet would disagree too!
> 
> Also Bani clearly places Human beings at one level and animal, plants and rocks at another level. I can furnish quotes.




The reference to birth, aging, sickness and death is not the one we observe in the conventional world. That kind of observation involves ideas superimposed upon experiences, for example, birth is judged as being when the child comes out of the womb or else guesses are made as to which stage of a fetus might qualify for this phenomenon. In reality however, birth is a moment of consciousness arisen following death and this can’t ever be observed, but about which understanding can be developed. Sickness is mostly a matter of misbalance of the elements, which admittedly, happens in plants as well. But this idea does not apply to them because in the end this too must tie up with consciousness. Aging is related to the fact of all conditioned realities must necessarily decay immediately following its arising and before it finally falls away. This is as much the case with mental realities as it is with physical ones. Death just like birth, is the result of particular karma, so surely we can’t say that plants die, only perhaps that they decay and disintegrate?

Also according to Buddhist teachings, there is what is called the Five Cosmic Order. 
1.	The caloric order 
2.	The germinal order 
3.	The moral order 
4.	The psychical order 
5.	Natural phenomenal sequence.

That which we conceive of as rocks and stones follow the caloric order, not the germinal, not the moral order, nor the psychical order. Plants having no consciousness are not governed by the moral nor the psychical orders, but beside the caloric order, are also governed by the germinal order. It is this which distinguishes plants from rocks and gives us the impression that they have life not too different from animals. But this is a misunderstanding due to wrong perception and the necessarily wrong ideas that follow.

I think we will indeed have to disagree on this point. I don’t know what is actually taught in Sikh teachings, but I do have a feeling that it may turn out to agree with me rather than what you state. ;-)


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Confused said:


> Randip ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
*No the Sikh point of view totally disagrees with what you say.* See "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh". The Hindu notion (or Vaishnav) is often confused with the Sikh notion.

As for consciousness, where does that begin or end? You play certain music to a plant it grows faster? You put an animal infront of a mirror, and it attacks it.


----------



## Randip Singh (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*



Shanger said:


> Can mean a number of things, creator of everything, a power who overlooks humans, something out of this realm which words can't even describe, since words are man-made and god is so much greater, an unstuck chord, that which has no start and no end etc.
> 
> Theyre similar in a lot of the ways that theyre described, formless, almighty etc.
> 
> ...


 
Hmm, the actual word use at the begining of the Guru Granth Sahib is "Onkaar". Does that mean God? or are we using the nearest word we can in our Semitic vocabulary to describe a concept for which we have no precise word?


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji

You said,



> By the way it is not reasonable for people to say they take offence to my accusations of the Gurus, I have given my reasons, I have not cursed or made direct insults, if I think the Gurus were tricking people, then that is what I have to say, I cannot sugar-coat it.



This is relevant. One important part of our TOS is that you may not undermine or insult the Sikh Gurus, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or Sikhi. To curse or make direct insults is certainly not accepted here. But to persist in the various ways that you state and imply that "the Gurus were tricking people...that is what I have to say...I cannot sugar coat it." Simply not acceptable. These statements have continued numerous times in spite of being given the benefit of the doubt, and  open and sincere efforts on the part of various members to understand your questions. Today you have made it quite clear.



*Temporary ban for 3 days. *


----------



## Archived_member14 (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Randip ji,




Randip Singh said:


> *No the Sikh point of view totally disagrees with what you say.* See "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh". The Hindu notion (or Vaishnav) is often confused with the Sikh notion.
> 
> As for consciousness, where does that begin or end? You play certain music to a plant it grows faster? You put an animal infront of a mirror, and it attacks it.




The article you directed me to is quite long and I don’t like reading long articles. But I started to scan through it and after reading the part about the 84 lakh incarnations; I was stopped in my tracks when I came to the description about the sugar-cane being crushed. Since this was cited to support the particular understanding about plants being ‘sentient’, I took it literally, something I would not have done otherwise. Yes, the Sikh understanding on karma appears to be *very* different from that of the Buddhist. And suddenly I don’t feel so motivated to participate in this group anymore….

As you may know, one big reason I started to post here was to encourage people to move away from conventional ideas about cause and effect and to start thinking more in terms of karma and its results, birth and death being two instances of this. Now while I am otherwise OK working with ideas about cause and effect as observed in the conventional world as long as one realizes that it does not represent what is really going on at the ultimate level, I am having a hard time reconciling with this particular understanding about karma that you have pointed me to. 

Karma according to the Buddha comes down to the mental factor of “intention”. This means that if I step on an insect accidently, there is no karma which will bring its results in the future. This allows me to live my life without feeling constricted and uptight. I can walk on grass while my thoughts are on the walking itself, or on what has been conceived of as a result of experiences through eyes and ears, or I could be thinking about other things. If some ants come within range of my perception, I can avoid stepping onto them. I don’t need to go around like the Jains do, who have a wrong understanding about killing and thus also the idea of non-killing, which then is made into an ideal resulting in strange behaviors. 

But what if I started to believe that plants and rocks too are sentient beings? Would I not now hesitate to walk on grass at all, because surely I’d hurt if not altogether dislodge some of them, which in effect would be to kill them? And playing soccer, I’d need to do so only on artificial grass. Walking by the pond or river, I’d consider it cruel to step on the pebbles and won’t even think of throwing any into the river. The thought to pluck flowers or fruits as gift for someone would now demand of me that I think of another object to give. Do I also stop trimming the plants and removing the weeds?

What is the fate of farmers and workers at orchards? Are they creating conditions whereby the chance to be reborn as animals or plants or rocks increase many folds? Should I now feel sorry for them each time that I buy fruits and vegetables in the market? Should I say thank you to a tree each time that I take a rest under its shade and a flower each time I look at it and enjoy its appearance? Between marble flooring and tiles, should I choose the latter for my home? Am I in effect walking on dead bodies when I walk around in this particular room of my house? 

And what if I were compelled to find justification for planting and subsequently uprooting potatoes since I come to a conclusion that I can’t avoid doing this, would this not one day lead me to do the same with regard to killing certain animals? And when I have reached this point, do I not move towards feeling justified in killing certain classes of human beings, those that are labeled “evil”? 

There is a mental factor called ‘life-faculty’ which arises with every instance of consciousness. This defines ‘life’ as we know and recognize it. But there is also a material reality with the same name, which arises according to the Buddha, only in those groups of materiality which are the *result of karma*. Materiality caused by the other three factors, namely heat, nutrition and consciousness, these are deprived of this life-faculty. The particular look of the human complexion and its ‘feel’ which differentiates it from a dead body or a mannequin is one evidence of life. ‘Breath’ is conditioned by consciousness and this is what we observe in humans and animals alike. Taking in different foods and digestion them is another thing that is peculiar to sentient beings. The intention to do this and that, is what both humans and animals are always engaged in. 

When this intention is driven by greed, hatred and delusion leading to certain actions, this is karma which will bring a corresponding result. The same with when it is driven by the opposites, namely non-greed, non-hatred and wisdom. It is clear that humans and animals are involved in actions all day, doing this and doing that, moving here and moving there. And when it comes to the moment of death, the last consciousness just before it, determines what plane the next birth will be in (and I’ve heard that this is taught in Sikhism as well). Could you actually say the same thing about plants and rocks? If so, what do you observe about them which make you think so? Do you think a plant could intend to hurt or to give comfort to anyone? Do you believe that when the sunflower turns its face towards the sun, that this is because it wants to? Do you think that a rock remains still because this is what it enjoys doing?

A debate would in my estimation, be unavoidable if we got into a discussion here, and I don’t want this to happen. But I do feel that I should express my thoughts and not be concerned whether people will feel offended or simply dismiss it.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Confused ji

Before you jump ship, I would encourage this understanding. The Sikh notion of karma, particularly as it refers to 84 lakh joons, is not open and shut. So one source that interprets the idea in one way, may be at odds with other reputable sources. Karma in Sikhism has not been laid out as a doctrine to be understood in a mandatory and iron clad way. Let me see if I can locate a very current discussion of karma in Sikhism, which also distinguishes a Sikh view from a Brahminical view, and post it for you.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

OK - This is only one passage from a longer article (I know you don't like long articles) that examines karma, reincarnation, and transmigration in what some might term a radical Nanakian view. Karma is difficult to separate from reincarnation and transmigration. The author Baldev Singh espouses that Guru Nanak repudiated all 3 ideas in the traditional Vedic philosophy. The attached article goes into more detail.


> Repudiation of Old Dogmas: 1. Karma and Reincarnation: The superstructure of Varna Ashrama Dharma/caste system is supported by karma and reincarnation (transmigration). In other words, both karma and reincarnation are part of the trilogy invented by the Brahmans and they both are designed to justify the caste base factor. The Brahman invoked divine sanctions to perpetuate the caste system for eternity. Hindu scriptures proclaim that Prajapati (God) ordained the four castes. This was followed by the invention of the doctrine of "karma and reincarnation" to desensitize people’s sense of justice and compassion against the atrocities committed on the masses to enforce the caste system. According to the law of karma, one reaps the fruit in this life for the deeds performed in the previous life. So, if a person is subjected to injustice and cruelty in this life, it is due to one’s own actions in previous life, not due to the perpetrators of cruelty and injustice. By observing the caste rules strictly and serving the superior castes faithfully one can earn the reward for the next life [1].
> 
> In spite of categorical and unequivocal rejection of reincarnation in the Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) why do many Sikhs believe in reincarnation? The main reason for this misunderstanding is the subversion of Nanakian philosophy (Gurmat) by its opponents. The anti-Gurmat Bipran (Brahmanical) literature [2] from the 18th century to the present depicts Sikhism as part of Hinduism – its sword arm against the onslaught of Islam. Further, Christian missionaries and Western writers also relied solely on Bipran literature at the exclusion of AGGS which is the only authentic source of Gurmat. They treated Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism or a mixture or hybrid or religious syncretism of Hinduism and Islam. Besides, as pointed out by Prof. Puran Singh, Sikh scholars/writers have not been able to extricate themselves from Brahmanical influence, and they have followed in the footsteps of Bipran and Western writers without undertaking a serious study of the AGGS:
> 
> ...


----------



## Ambarsaria (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Confused ji I find your posts good.

I don't think we are too far part in many ways.  Consider for example the following excerpts from your post,When this intention is driven by greed, hatred and delusion leading to  certain actions, this is karma which will bring a corresponding result.  The same with when it is driven by the opposites, namely non-greed,  non-hatred and wisdom. It is clear that humans and animals are involved  in actions all day, doing this and doing that, moving here and moving  there.

​So as from my thinking there is very sincere but subtle thing that perhaps is not necessarily flagged always and I may be even wrong.  For me the following five,


Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Hankar (and in one post you also identified the complements of the same) need to be addressed
I believe if one postulates that all these be eliminated or made zero then I do not see any practical way of living.  So for me it is the level of control and the judgments made to determine that level of control and corresponding actions lead to life taught to us by our Gurus and their Gurbani.  So this allows you to live but also know certain and definite consequences of out of balance.
With this point I do not see any conflict in my thought processes and understanding versus what you have stated.  You have kind of called what is done in the context of the 5/10 beyond normal living as Karma with consequences.  I don't know enough about connotations of Karma and you are a learned man, but I have seen Karma thrown around in lot of wrong contexts not with the depth of understanding that you have conveyed.
Without addressing the issue of two aspects of birth and death and the transformations therein I want to share the above comments.

I can certainly dialog on birth, death and transformations in a reasonably precise direct  responses.

Regards.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

I endorse what you say Ambarsaria ji. And it may be that we need to identify points where there are similarities. 

But not going so far off that we lose the sense of the thread.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

There is also a good discussion, on this thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essay...m-gurmatt-nankian-philosophy-totally-new.html


----------



## Archived_member14 (Jan 30, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Spnadmin ji,




spnadmin said:


> There is also a good discussion, on this thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essay...m-gurmatt-nankian-philosophy-totally-new.html




Thank you for directing me to this discussion. I read most of it and enjoyed some of the comments. 

I did not like the approach taken by the author of the essay and is why I read only a little of it. But of course this is understandable since he was out to dismiss the whole idea. To highlight the wrong attitude towards Karma held by a group of people and clear Sikhism from association with this, he has not offered an alternative understanding about the concept. It is fine if he does not want to believe in Karma and reincarnation (or rebirth). But to try and influence other people by way of highlighting one wrong attitude towards it is not just throwing the baby out with the bath water, but intentionally misleading. Indeed had he any understanding about karma himself, he’d not approach the problem the way he did. 

But of course, what other people do and think is not my business and I should not feel any urge to try and help only those that I perceive as being misled. Besides, I clearly lack kindness in much of what I write, so why should I criticize anyone? Although when I do this, it is to illustrate some points and not only to express irritation. Besides I do offer my own understanding and not just criticize don’t I? And this is what I have done in my response to Jasleen ji, in the “What is Karma?” thread. I do hope that it will be useful.


----------



## Archived_member14 (Jan 30, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Ambarsaria ji,


--------


> Ambarsaria:
> Confused ji I find your posts good.




C: Thank you for saying it.

========


> Ambarsaria:
> I don't think we are too far part in many ways. Consider for example the following excerpts from your post,
> When this intention is driven by greed, hatred and delusion leading to certain actions, this is karma which will bring a corresponding result. The same with when it is driven by the opposites, namely non-greed, non-hatred and wisdom. It is clear that humans and animals are involved in actions all day, doing this and doing that, moving here and moving there.
> 
> ...




C: Yes. And I was thinking in relation to the other thread which Spnadmin ji cited, that people are seeking direct statements about karma and reincarnation as proof of whether or not it is taught or emphasized in Sikh teachings. But what is the constant encouragement to beneficial courses of action and the avoidance of unbeneficial ones all about? What is the warning with regard to actions motivated by kam, krodh, lobh, moh and hankar all point to if not the fact of them being cause leading to undesirable results? And why must one insist that these only relate to *this* life alone? 

We are totally in the dark when it comes to the nature of mental phenomena. Let alone begun to investigate kam, krodh and so on, often we do not even see the importance of doing this, some glaze over at the very mention of it. Instead we are at the level where hearing stories about and speculating as to what their natures are, is more interesting, if not entertaining. Sometimes more so when all this is done while pointing the finger at other people. Sometimes we even become self-willed and it is not surprising then, that we are so bold as to dismiss karma and rebirth (or reincarnation if you like). Especially since we have likely projected fatalism into the concept and like to believe otherwise, that we are in fact ‘in control’ of things.

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> Ambarsaria:
> I believe if one postulates that all these be eliminated or made zero then I do not see any practical way of living. So for me it is the level of control and the judgments made to determine that level of control and corresponding actions lead to life taught to us by our Gurus and their Gurbani. So this allows you to live but also know certain and definite consequences of out of balance.




C: There is no control outside of the mental phenomena performing individual and unique functions at any given moment. Wisdom performs its function aimed in the positive direction, but there is no entity standing apart to increase the momentum, pulling any strings or adding some catalyst. And one of the things wisdom would know is that for example, kindness is more effective in dealing with other people than any attachment that we have. Giving brings its results that ‘taking’ will never do. Moral restraint, unlike wrong deeds, is not accompanied by any agitation. Therefore if you want ‘control’ of the vices, it is only through the development of understanding that this will happen, not by any attempt at balancing, one done out of ignorance and desire for particular results.

=========


> Ambarsaria:
> With this point I do not see any conflict in my thought processes and understanding versus what you have stated. You have kind of called what is done in the context of the 5/10 beyond normal living as Karma with consequences. I don't know enough about connotations of Karma and you are a learned man, but I have seen Karma thrown around in lot of wrong contexts not with the depth of understanding that you have conveyed.
> Without addressing the issue of two aspects of birth and death and the transformations therein I want to share the above comments.
> I can certainly dialog on birth, death and transformations in a reasonably precise direct responses.



C: I would like to read your comments on what I have just posted in the “What is Karma?” thread.

Regards.


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## spnadmin (Feb 4, 2011)

*Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?*

Shanger ji

You are working on your second ban. Please stay on topic. Refrain from negativity. Take the Sri Guru Granth Sahib seriously if only because SPN does not exist to give you a platform for undermining it for the benefit of an anonymous Internet audience. There are other forums like TOPIX who would welcome you with open arms. Thanks.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 4, 2011)

Shanger said:


> *Shanger ji's comments deleted in the quoted copy. spnadmin*


Shanger ji it appears you have not learnt basic etiquette of growing up.  Most people here are respectful and much older not that age needs to equate to intelligence.

You should do a quick introspection why you alone have issues while others all respectfully posting.  No body is towing the party line as none exists.

Please provide on-topic and comments in areas you know something about.  If you are not sikh or misguided one and believe that _you know or have better understanding than all_ (very much against Sikhism fundamentals and teachings), may God help you.

For every 100 people there are 200 devil's advocates if that is your line of thinking or value add.

Sorry if it shows some bitterness.

These threads may be of help to you.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/34378-lets-agree-to-disagree.html
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/31145-the-sai-baba-scamster-sikh-archives.html

Sat Sri Akal


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