# Karma, Freewill  & Hukam In Sikhism



## Archived_Member16 (Jul 14, 2008)

*KARMA, FREEWILL & HUKAM IN SIKHISM*

_*source:* "Introduction To Sikism" - Author: Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani_


*Q42. What is Karma?*

The scientific concept of cause and effect, action and reaction is called the law of Karma(in religious parlance). A man reaps what he sows. Is it not typical that in spite of the law of Karma, man expects nectar after sowing poison? 


Just as our present life is the result of our past Karma, the present Karma will determine our future life. Karma operates in this life and successive ones. The law of Karma does not cease to operate after death, because death is just a matter of physical disintegration, and has no effect on the soul, which survives. 

God is the Creator of the first Karma, the origin of the universe, and the destroyer of Karma. 

Good or evil by frequent repetition leave their impression on character. A man doing wicked deeds continuously will turn into a bad character. This produces states of mind, like anxiety, fear and guilt, all of which will cause pain and suffering to the individual. 

Karma does not mean that everything is preordained and that man has no freewill. He carries his past Karma in the form of character. It is his own actions that make him what he is. Guru Nanak says, "The record of my deeds cannot be effaced because God has recorded them." Man has to sow seeds, the choice and the initiative to certain extent. He also has the ability to change the course of events even though circumscribed by heredity and environment. God as the Ruler of the Universe controls the over-all destiny of individual. Like the prodigal son, sinners turn to Him only as the last resort. 

Sikhism modified the theory of Karma in two directions. Firstly, efforts of the individual are necessary for improving his own condition. Man is responsible for his lot. He must not blame God for his destiny. He must think of the present and the future. Secondly, Karma can be changed by prayer and the Grace of God. 

When an individual learns to submit to His will, he ceases to make new Karma. He offers all his actions to Him; he acts as the instrument of His Will. According to Sikhism, all past Karma may then be erased through the association with saints, and meditation on "The Name". 


*Q43. Is there Fate or Freewill, according to Sikhism?*

Sikhism affirms the omnipotence of God and consequently modifies the concept of Karma. Man is not a helpless puppet. The course of fate may be compared to the flow of a river, while individual action may look like an eddy, or a whirlpool or a wave. 

Man has a dual role: firstly, as a person in a particular community and environment, working under certain limitations, and secondly, as an individual with a free will, wanting to do this thing or that to elevate himself. He is like a merchant trading with a certain capital. He may lose it or invest it wisely, to earn profit. He is free to sow the seed, but once he has done so, he has no option other than to reap the fruit.

Predestination is responsible for the present; but the present gives us an opportunity to mould our future. It is just like the rotation and revolutions of the earth. The earth revolves around the sun and is influenced by it, but it also has its own motion. 

According to Sikhism, man is an action being, a Karma Yogi, who has to overcome his difficulties with understanding and wisdom. The effort of the individual should take the form of detached action and not, feeding his ego. He must work altruistically, for mankind, and not for the self. 

Spiritual effort has to be blessed by Divine favor in order to be successful. This effort requires self-surrender, to His Will. If man works selfishly, in Maya, he suffers; if he works selflessly according to the Will of God he is saved. This self-surrender is a conscious effort to win divine grace. The self-effort is to bring the Divine Will and individual free will into harmony. That is how the two wills become reconciled. Man's salvation lies in his own effort to drown his Ego in the Divine Will. 

Guru Nanak explains the point through a metaphor: 
"The mind is the paper on which are recorded in the sum of our deeds, good and bad, the impressions, of the habits of our cumulative past. Against this, and limitless are the virtues of our Lord, for He turneth dross into gold and the fires(passions) of the body extinguish."​*Q32. What is Hukam?*

Hukam means order: that is God's order. By God's order all forms came into existence. The Divine Will is responsible for the creation, sustenance and dissolution of man and the Universe. Whatever happens is by His Will. Hukam takes the form of Natural Laws or Universal axioms. All the parts of the Universe are under His control. 

According to Sikhism, true happiness is attained by accepting and submitting to the Divine Will. Guru Nanak says: 
_"How can I be truthful and break the wall of falsehood? _​_By submission to His Will, as it is ingrained in me." _
[SIZE=-1]_(A.G., p.1)_[/SIZE]​Living in harmony with the Divine Will brings everlasting peace. Like a child, the disciple is to be guided by the elders. Everything emanates from Him and is, therefore significant. Saints and martyrs, in spite of occult powers, have submitted to torture and death in order to honour His Will. "Thy Will be done" is one of the basic principles of Sikhism. This does not imply the negation of individual volition. A Sikh must bring his will in line with the Will of God. 

What is God's Hukam? The Gurus tell us that God's command is that one must merge one's will in His Will. The service of God's creation is the best way of working in harmony with the Divine Will. Secondly, God desires that man who has the Divine essence in him should once again merge in Him and thereby end the cycle of Karma and transmigration. 

Submission to God's Will produces a sense of humility and self-abnegation. When man surrenders himself completely to him, he regards himself as an instrument of His Will. He realizes that whatever comes from Him is for his own good. Every misery that he faces is a sort of mercy. He is full of gratitude and prayer for all he has done. Guru Arjan says: 
_"What pleases Thee, O Lord, that is acceptable. _​
_To Thy Will, I am a sacrifice."_ ​[SIZE=-1](A.G., p.676)
[/SIZE]​The only antidote for egoism and vanity is complete surrender to His Will. Only by conquering the self, can one enter the realm of God's Grace. 
​


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## Sikh80 (Jul 14, 2008)

Soul_jyot said:


> *Q42. What is Karma?*
> 
> The scientific concept of cause and effect, action and reaction is called the law of Karma(in religious parlance). A man reaps what he sows. Is it not typical that in spite of the law of Karma, man expects nectar after sowing poison?
> 
> ...




*I shall be grateful for the answers.
Regards
*


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## spnadmin (Jul 14, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

Here is your answer:*ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||* 

With your permission, Nothing is possible without His Grace.  It is by His Grace that we receive His Hukam.  It is by His Hukam that all comes to pass.

ਤਿਥੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਅਪੜੈ ਜਿਥੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥੭॥ 
thithhai kaal n aparrai jithhai gur kaa sabadh apaar ||7||
Death does not reach that place, where the Infinite Word of the Guru's Shabad resounds. ||7||
 
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਭੇ ਊਪਜਹਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
hukamee sabhae oopajehi hukamee kaar kamaahi ||
By the Hukam of His Command, all are created. By His Command, actions are performed.
 
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਲੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
hukamee kaalai vas hai hukamee saach samaahi ||
By His Command, all are subject to death; by His Command, they merge in Truth.
ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਇਨਾ ਜੰਤਾ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੮॥੪॥ 
naanak jo this bhaavai so thheeai einaa janthaa vas kishh naahi ||8||4||
O Nanak, whatever pleases His Will comes to pass. Nothing is in the hands of these beings. ||8||4||
_
SriRaag, Guru Nanak_ _Dev ji_

And, it is by His Grace that we are saved and obtain peace. 

ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪਹੁ ਸੁਖ ਫਲ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥
har prabh kirapaa karae har jaapahu sukh fal har jan paavahu ||
The Lord God will bestow His Grace, if you meditate on the Lord; O humble servant of the Lord, you shall obtain the fruit of peace.

_Guru Amardas Dev ji, Ang 767_

In the Shabad,  Creation and Destruction is by His Hukam. Salvation is by His Grace.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 14, 2008)

*aadji,

Thanks for the Guru Vaaks and the Emotions of the author that got swayed along with this post.
I got the answer. We all have the Free will to the extent permitted by the bani only.
Regards.*


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## spnadmin (Jul 14, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.

Anyway that is what I understand.


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## pk70 (Jul 14, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we *can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.
> *
> Anyway that is what I understand.



*Amazingly true, what a metaphor Bhain ji !!!!!!!!!!!!:happy:
*


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## drkhalsa (Jul 15, 2008)

> I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.
> 
> Anyway that is what I understand.



I hope you dont mind If i dont agree.

Recently I have been told that we always have been considering ourself currents in the ocean ( GOD)
Infact this the Illusion /Maya  if identify with the Body and /Mind  aThen yes at that level you have free will and you are current with possibilty of movement 

But if one rejects the identification with particular Body/ Mind then there is just observation but no freewill and just the WILL of God

I have also been taught that once the observer establishes itself in Counciousness ( the states of rejecting identification with body /mind)  the conciousness iteself becomes your guide/Guru and leads one beyond itself into the state of Absolute  

and at that level even this counsiouness and will of GOD stands out to be Illusion!

I know it all seems like muddled up and like some Sci Fi Movie . I apologise for handling such a subject in such a manner

Also what I have written Obviously is partly part of my knowledge and partly my experience 


Thanks


Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 15, 2008)

drkhalsa ji

We are not in disagreement. My example was chosen to illustrate our perspective when grounded in the illusory world of Maya -- as an image that helps with the need to understand the connection between individual will and God's will. But you are right -- once merged with the Divine, the notion that there ever was individual will is ludicrous. 

Problem is this -- the idea of 'having no will of one's own' opens the door to the idea that while on this earthly plane we have no control over our decisions and actions. And the logical conclusion becomes fatalism -- we think, "nothing matters and so I may as well not make an effort."  And that is not where Sikhism is. We always have the moral obligation to make an effort, to make decisions to choose good over evil.

Is it God's Will that we choose between good and evil? Or does God decide that some will choose evil and others will choose good? Are we given the opportunity to overcome karma? Or has the choice to continue in cycles of pain and suffering been fixed for us in advance with no hope of moving out of that cycle through truthful living?


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## drkhalsa (Jul 15, 2008)

> s it God's Will that we choose between good and evil? Or does God decide that some will choose evil and others will choose good? Are we given the opportunity to overcome karma? Or has the choice to continue in cycles of pain and suffering been fixed for us in advance with no hope of moving out of that cycle through truthful living?



Thanks Aad ji for pointing out that we are in agreement , it was mine short sighted view


YOurs questions has variable answer and I can give my opinion only after you tell who is this  WE. SOME , OTHERS is this something Physical  ie BODY /MIND  Complex , or something Subtle than this?


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## Astroboy (Jul 15, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.
> 
> Anyway that is what I understand.



ਜੈਸੀ  ਮਤਿ  ਦੇਵਹੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਹਮ  ਤੈਸੇ  ਬੁਲਗ  ਬੁਲਾਗੀ  ॥੨॥
जैसी मति देवहु हरि सुआमी हम तैसे बुलग बुलागी ॥२॥
Jaisī maṯ ḏėvhu har su*āmī ham ṯaisė bulag bulāgī. ||2||
As is the understanding You bless us with, so are the words we speak. ||2||


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## spnadmin (Jul 15, 2008)

drkhalsa said:


> Thanks Aad ji for pointing out that we are in agreement , it was mine short sighted view
> 
> 
> YOurs questions has variable answer and I can give my opinion only after you tell who is this  WE. SOME , OTHERS is this something Physical  ie BODY /MIND  Complex , or something Subtle than this?



What a good question, a difficult one! In sehaj the questions I asked above are meaningless. They would have been answered and then would cease to be important. This is my very limited understanding. On this side of mukhti, WE/SOME/OTHERS is body/mind asking questions.  On this side of mukhti I am asking whether WE/SOME/OTHERS  are excused from making conscious moral choices because of our karma. 

I was expecting a different reaction. One that bothers me a lot, But instead, I am very grateful for your reaction.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 15, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.
> 
> Anyway that is what I understand.



Gurbani tells us that we are composed of two parts..body+JYOT.
Both are Complimentary...once the Body DIES..it disntegrates back to dust/elements...and the JYOT merges with the Master JYOT ( drop of water (jyot) is held in a container (body)) thus drop of water merges back into the OCEAN....footeh ghat jion pannee is one metaphorical expression of this time bound body backward counting towards MERGER with the Master JYOT....ONE OCEAN.

Thus i beleive there is NO more possibility of any "individual" drop of water..or Jyot/soul etc having any significance/independent existence...the instant a body dies..the JYOT merges into the JYOT/OCEAN...There is a shabad describing this moment....jal meh jal hooa raam...

The "Bad Karma..of our ACTIONS..etc is Right HERE and NOW..what we did yesterday..we reap TODAY...what we will do tomorrow we will reap after  tomorrow. ALL our Heaven/Hell is HERE. All accounts are settled and books closed when our JYOT merges back with the Creator...All those tales about a child born with a missing pair of legs/blind/ etc being due to "past bad karma"...etc etc are hogwash to me. ITS on this EARTH that we ahve the FREEWILL to decide what we want to do...and our Mann reaps the rewards/punishment for that.

My two cents worth..

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 15, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Gurbani tells us that we are composed of two parts..body+JYOT.
> Both are Complimentary...once the Body DIES..it disntegrates back to dust/elements...and the JYOT merges with the Master JYOT ( drop of water (jyot) is held in a container (body)) thus drop of water merges back into the OCEAN....footeh ghat jion pannee is one metaphorical expression of this time bound body backward counting towards MERGER with the Master JYOT....ONE OCEAN.
> 
> Thus i beleive there is NO more possibility of any "individual" drop of water..or Jyot/soul etc having any significance/independent existence...the instant a body dies..the JYOT merges into the JYOT/OCEAN...There is a shabad describing this moment....jal meh jal hooa raam...
> ...



Two cents worth two million I think. Admittedly a little confused, maybe my brains will get straightened out in time.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 15, 2008)

*I am indeed grateful for your opinion and the interpretation of the things. There are two questions that we are pondering over side by side:

1.Is there any free will as per Sikhism. ? and
  2.Kramas and How these are rewarded and how these are settled.


  It has been opined that there is no free will available with the individual as almost everything is pre-destined. Respected aad ji has, in her first post, clearly stated that His Hukum and will prevails and we are just helpless creatures. The helplessness of the Mortals has also been stated by Guru sahibs at many places in various formats and in different contexts but the finger is pointed always toward the predestined and His Grace.

  At some point or the other one is required to take an overall view of these two essentially important concepts. I am not worthy of answering your posts but we learn in this manner and get the guidance of the elders and hence an attempt is made to present my view-point.

  Do we really have free will with us to do that we want to do? We have been blessed with intellect/budhi/mat etc. The following line is again quoted from the post of aad ji. It is very clearly admitted that the mortal’s intellect is also His gift thus the limitations are put on as to how to employ/deploy this. [I am not stating the usage of the mat in day to day affairs as has been stated by my learned friend aad ji. wherein reference can be drawn that she is talking of the jobs that we have to do in the state of affairs of Maya, the illusion. The perspective is lost as the discussion is purely to understand the freedom at the spiritual level for the attainment of the sat ]
* 
ਜੈਸੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹਮ ਤੈਸੇ ਬੁਲਗ ਬੁਲਾਗੀ 
As is the understanding You bless us with, so are the words we speak.

*Let us examine some of the issues in the wider context* 


*A.Meeting with the guru*

AYsy kwhy BUil pry ] (823-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   Why do you wander in delusion like this?

krih krwvih mUkir pwvih pyKq sunq sdw sMig hry ]1] rhwau ] (823-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   You act, and incite others to act, and then deny it. The Lord is always with you; He sees and hears everything. ||1||Pause||

kwc ibhwJn kMcn Cwfn bYrI sMig hyqu swjn iqAwig Kry ] (823-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   You purchase glass, and discard gold; you are in love with your enemy, while you renounce your true friend.

hovnu kaurw Anhovnu mITw ibiKAw mih lptwie jry ]1] (823-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
  That which exists, seems bitter; that which does not exist, seems sweet to you. Engrossed in corruption, you are burning away. ||1||

AMD kUp mih pirE prwnI Brm gubwr moh bMiD pry ] (823-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   The mortal has fallen into the deep, dark pit, and is entangled in the darkness of doubt, and the bondage of emotional attachment.

khu nwnk pRB hoq dieAwrw guru BytY kwFY bwh Pry ]2]10]96] (823-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
*Says Nanak, when God becomes merciful, one meets with the Guru, who takes him by the arm, and lifts him out. ||2||10||96||*

*   The last line clearly refers to HIS grace. We meet HIM when He casts HIS glance of Grace. Getting HIS blessed vision and understanding HIM is obtained when He so decides and we are just helpless creatures and we pray:*

piqq pwvn pRB ibrdu qum@wro hmry doK irdY mq Dwrhu ] (829-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   It is Your Natural Way, God, to purify sinners; please do not keep my errors in Your Heart.

*
  Because we know that*:

ikAw hm jIA jMq bycwry brin n swkh eyk romweI ] (822-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   What am I? Just a poor living being. I cannot even describe one of Your hairs, O Lord.

*And we also at the same time cry out in pain.*

 mY nwhI pRB sBu ikCu qyrw ] (827-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
  I am nothing, God; everything is Yours.

*Guru Sahibs have recognized the helplessness of the mortals and have stated the same at many other places. It has been stated that everything is happening as per pre ordained destiny of the individual soul on the basis of the karmas. The pleasure and pains are also the outcome of the same as the following would suggest.*​ 
kuMt cwir dh idis BRmy krm ikriq kI ryK ] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
   He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.

sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
   Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny. ||1||

*Hence the mortal is in delusion and Guru sahibaan have stated the prayers that the poor creatures make to the Almighty. It is after realizing that he has none that such prayers come out from the heart of the devotees. After bitterly stung by the Maya the mortal prays thus:*

mY nwhI pRB sBu ikCu qyrw ] (827-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   I am nothing, God; everything is Yours.


jo qum@ krhu soeI Bl mwnau mn qy CUtY sgl gumwnu ] (824-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   Whatever You do, I accept as good. I have eradicated all egotistical pride from my mind. 

*The prayer continues:*


ijau BwvY iqau moih pRiqpwl ] (828-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   If it pleases You, then cherish me.

pwrbRhm prmysr siqgur hm bwirk qum@ ipqw ikrpwl ]1] rhwau ] (828-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   O Supreme Lord God, Transcendent Lord, O True Guru, I am Your child, and You are my Merciful Father. ||1||Pause||

moih inrgux guxu nwhI koeI phuic n swkau qum@rI Gwl ] (828-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   I am worthless; I have no virtues at all. I cannot understand Your actions.

qumrI giq imiq qum hI jwnhu jIau ipMfu sBu qumro mwl ]1] (828-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
   You alone know Your state and extent. My soul, body and property are all Yours. ||1||

*This is the state when one surrenders to the Lord that we come to understand that it is HIS will and HIS grace that are consequential only. Our karmas are governed by the divine law and He is the architect of our karmas.If He is the architect of our Karmas where is the scope of the freedom of the individual soul/jiva.; it is only an imagination and it exists in imagination only. Our past karmas make our destiny and the present action that we do are molded by the Almighty the causes of all causes. It is when self-conceit is eradicated that we realize this that we are just the tools in his hands who is a sculptor and is engaged in shaping this nature as per HIS wider game plans and we do not have an iota of the knowledge of HIS acts as we cannot know.*

nwnk jMq vjwey vwjih ijqu BwvY iqqu rwih cleIAw ]8]2]5] (834-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 4)
   O Nanak, we are the instruments upon which He plays; as He wills, so is the path we take. ||8||2||5||

*In such a situation how can then one state that one has free will. One can only that much that is permitted as per the karmas as the karmas cannot be erased in normal course. This is His creation and we do that we are supposed to do.*​ 
iehu jgu vrnu rUpu sBu qyrw ijqu lwvih sy krm kmeIAw ] (834-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 4)
   This world, with its colors and forms, is all Yours, O Lord; as You attach us, so do we do our deeds.

*The above concept of helplessness of the mortal is stated as follows:*

hm cyrI qU Agm gusweI ikAw hm krh qyrY vis peIAw ] (836-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 4)
   I am Your hand-maiden, O Inaccessible Lord of the Universe; what can I do by myself? I am under Your power.


*Oh My Master forgive me. I am not even to be reckoned above dust as such are my deeds. Kindly forgive us. We are all but your creation.* 


ikrpw krhu dIn ky dwqy myrw guxu Avgxu n bIcwrhu koeI ] (882-16, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
  Have mercy on me, O Generous Giver, Lord of the meek; please do not consider my merits and demerits.

mwtI kw ikAw DopY suAwmI mwxs kI giq eyhI ]1] (882-16, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
   How can dust be washed? O my Lord and Master, such is the state of mankind. ||1||

*And further :*

jYsw rMgu dyih so hovY ikAw nwnk jMq ivcwry ]8]3] (982-4, nt, mÚ 4)
   Only that color which You impart, Lord, exists; O Nanak, what can the poor wretched being do? ||8||3||


*We are just poor and wretched creatures only and there is nothing that we claim to state that we can do it. *

ikAw vycwrw jMqu jw Awip BulwieAw ]8] (707-16, jYqsrI, mÚ 5)
   What can the poor helpless creature do? The Lord Himself has deluded him. ||8||


*   Till we have the mercy we have everything that we call as everything but in essence we have nothing else we are earthly worms.*​ 

   nwnk jo iqsu BwvY so QIAY ienw jMqw vis ikCu nwih ]8]4] (55-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  O Nanak, whatever pleases His Will comes to pass. Nothing is in the hands of these beings. ||8||4||

*   How can we state that we have anything to do. Do we have some power.?If yes, it is HIS grace only and nothing else. *​ 
ien@ kY ikCu hwiQ nhI khw krih ieih bpuVy ien@ kw vwihAw kCu n vsweI ] (859-8, goNf, mÚ 4)
  Nothing is in their hands; what can these poor creatures do? By their actions, nothing can be done.


*   Guru gives this understanding:*


  ikCu iksI kY hiQ nwhI myry suAwmI AYsI myrY siqguir bUJ buJweI ] (860-1, goNf, mÚ 4)
   Nothing is in the hands of anyone, O my Lord and Master; such is the understanding the True Guru has given me to understand.
*
  I dedicate the following lines to aad ji:*


   ErY kCU n iknhU kIAw ] (261-1, gauVI, mÚ 5)
   In this world, no one accomplishes anything by himself.

nwnk sBu kCu pRB qy hUAw ]51] (261-1, gauVI, mÚ 5)
   O Nanak, everything is done by God. ||51


*   I shall be able to touch upon the second aspect i.e. Karmas etc as stated by Gyani Jarnail ji.*

*In nut shell whether there is  'free will' or not is left to the study of the reader/members. He never intended it. Yes, He has given intellect that we can carry out with our the daily lives .Our intellect, that we call as ours, is also under the control of the Almighty. How can our actions be out of it.It just cannot be. Freedom to 'will' is freewill and that cannot be the prerogative of the mortals. Strange are His ways.!!*
*
[/FONT]* hwiQ hmwrY kCUAY nwhI ijsu jxwieih iqsY jxwvxw ]9] (1086-8, mwrU, mÚ 5)
*
*
*Nothing is in my hands; he alone knows, whom You inspire to know. ||9||*


 jw kY msqik Duir iliK pwieAw ] (1086-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
*One who has such pre-ordained destiny inscribed upon his forehead,*


 iqs hI purK n ivAwpY mwieAw ] (1086-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
*that person is not afflicted by Maya.[/FONT]*
*


Regards to all.!!


[/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 15, 2008)

how do we know if we have "free will" ?

is "free will" really independent of any influence of God or is it another facet of the "maya" ?

if the allowed "free will" has limits?, is it still free ?

is "free will" given or it just "happens" ?

how can a  creation be out of control of the creator?


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## Sikh80 (Jul 16, 2008)

*Karmas and Preordained Destiny*

*The inscription inscribed upon one's forehead is eternal and imperishable; it cannot be avoided by avoidance.*
*
[/FONT]*    inhclu msqik lyKu iliKAw so tlY n tlwDw ] (1101-5, mwrU, mÚ 5)
*
The basic sikh philosophy about Karma can be summed up by quoting the following lines. No one can erase the record of one's actions or put simply the  Past actions cannot be erased.[/FONT][/FONT]*

ikrqu n koeI mytxhwrw ] (1052-14, mwrU, mÚ 3)
ikrqu pieAw nh mytY koie ] (154-1, gauVI, mÚ 1)

*Bani admits that the past Karmas of man are responsible for the meeting with the lord or the realization of the essence of the things.The present life is also the outcome of our earlier Karmas or purab karmas whose account could not be settled. Karma as per sikh philosophy will deem to include the thoughts and deeds both. By His Command, and through your past actions, you came into the world; walk forever according to His Will. *
​ hukim sMjogI AwieAw clu sdw rjweI ] (421-18, Awsw, mÚ 1)

*The taking of birth in the Human garb is also as per the Karmas of past.** Wherever the beings and creatures are, they are born according to the karma of their past actions.[/FONT] When the seed of the karma of past actions sprouted we meet the Lord.[/FONT]*[/FONT]
​ jIA jMq jhw jhw lgu krm ky bis jwie ] (486-8, Awsw, Bgq rivdws jI)
pUrb krm AMkur jb pRgty ByitE purKu risk bYrwgI ] (204-7, gauVI, mÚ 5)

*The past actions may be of immediate past or the actions committed in earlier lives. These actions cannot be erased. Of course, these can be erased with the Grace of Lord. God should be powerful enough to do this. Man suffers. He seeks to escape suffering, but he does this by following the worldly way of pursuing the path of ego, wealth, power and worldly knowledge. Engrossed in worldly pleasures he feels no interest in the divine light that lies within him. He is bewitched by the beauty of earthly things and gets entangled in them. He does not search for the Truth, the realisation of which could make him eternal, holy and blissful, ending all his sufferings. So absorbing and deluding are the worldly pleasures that they leave man with no time to think of higher aspirations. They detract him from his age long quest to unveil the hidden Reality within. Guru Ji says *

 *" Madmen, you remain sleep ! Intoxicated with the pleasure of worldliness and love for your family, you waste your life in fleeting delights."*

*The second part of the sikh philosophy of the Karmas can again be summed by quoting the following line that states that; As they plant, so shall they harvest. *
​ jYsw bIjih qYsw Kwsw ]3] (176-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)

*No one can erase the karmas. Shiva, the destroyer of countless sins, the Lord and Master of the three worlds, wandered from sacred shrine to sacred shrine; he never found an end to them.And yet, he could not erase the karma of cutting off Brahma's head. *
*Similarly,** Hanuman burnt the fortress of Sri Lanka, uprooted the garden of Raawan, and brought healing herbs for the wounds of Lachhman, pleasing Lord Raamaa; and yet, because of his karma, he could not be rid of his loin-cloth.* 

krm kir kCautI mPItis rI ]5] (695-8, DnwsrI, Bgq iqRlocn jI)

*The inter-twined concept is pre-ordained destiny. The destiny of everyman is authored and inscripted by the Lord on the forehead of the being. The various worldly pleasures are the direct result of the pre-ordained destiny and the Karmas forms the basis of this destiny.**Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny.*[/FONT]

sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)

*There is direct evidence in the bani that the present life shall be affected by the previous karmas as well as the destiny would be authored as per those as wells. Only your actions shall go with you; the consequences of your actions cannot be erased. The tuk that explains this concept is as follows:*

nwnk kmwxw sMig juilAw nh jwie ikrqu imtwieAw ]1] (460-1, Awsw, mÚ 5)


*Thus the actions committed in this life that could not meet the consequences or could not be rewarded in the present life shall be settled in the coming life. It shall be correct to presume that the results of the actions that have not been settled in the present life shall be accounted for in the coming lives of the jiva. Jiva is responsible for the actions committed earlier. It can be argued that what ever HE desires happens. But He is also likely to reward us for all that we have done. Whatever pleases Him, He does; no one can erase His actions. *

jo iqsu BwvY soeI krsI ikrqu n myitAw jweI ]5] (504-14, gUjrI, mÚ 1)


*There has to be some systematic law for this. The law of karma cannot be better explained by the following line that is self speaking. whatever one does in this world, determines what he shall receive in the world hereafter.*

nwnk eyQY kmwvY so imlY AgY pwey jwie ]1] (556-2, ibhwgVw, mÚ 3)

*If everything is as per our actions ;the basic question that comes to an intelligent mins is as to how the first Karmas of the jiva were formed. Guru sahibaan have not indulged into this kind of argument and left this theoretical discussion for the human being. But Guru is all powerful, as he should be, to grant forgiveness and take away the reactions of particular karmas.There would , ofcourse, be conditions attached to it.*

jgjIvnu dwqw krim ibDwqw Awpy bKsy soeI ] (570-11, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

*The concept of pre-ordained destiny is re-inforced by some other tuks in Bani as well. Upon each and every head, the True Lord writes their destiny of pain and pleasure, according to their past actions. He bestows pain and pleasure, according to the deeds done; the record of these deeds stays with the soul. He does those deeds which the Creator Lord causes him to do; he can attempt no other actions.** The Life of the World, the Great Giver, the Architect of karma - He Himself grants forgiveness.*

sir isir scVY iliKAw duKu suKu purib vIcwrovw ] (581-8, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)
duKu suKu dIAw jyhw kIAw so inbhY jIA nwly ] (581-9, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)
jyhy krm krwey krqw dUjI kwr n Bwly ] (581-9, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)


*We should, therefore, not presume that there is free will element, if there is some divergence in the present actions and the past karmas it can only be through HIS grace only and when He is pleased. Infact, the mortals do all actions as per the pre-ordained destiny only. Nothing can change the eternal law. The mortal does those deeds, and those alone, which You ordained by destiny. But that being, whom the Lord has blessed with His Mercy from the very beginning, does perfect deeds, and accumulates good karma.*

so so krm krq hY pRwxI jYsI qum iliK pweI ] (610-15, soriT, mÚ 5)
ik®pw kry ijsu AwpxI Duir pUrw krmu kryie ] (959-6, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

*Integrating the concept of absence of free will and the Karmas I shall sum up with the help of the following line*


ien@ kY ikCu hwiQ nhI khw krih ieih bpuVy ien@ kw vwihAw kCu n vsweI ] (859-8, goNf, mÚ 4)
*
Nothing is in their hands; what can these poor creatures do? By their actions, nothing can be done.

Regards to all,

Subject to editing. *


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## drkhalsa (Jul 17, 2008)

> What a good question, a difficult one! In sehaj the questions I asked above are meaningless. They would have been answered and then would cease to be important. This is my very limited understanding. On this side of mukhti, WE/SOME/OTHERS is body/mind asking questions. On this side of mukhti I am asking whether WE/SOME/OTHERS are excused from making conscious moral choices because of our karma.
> 
> I was expecting a different reaction. One that bothers me a lot, But instead, I am very grateful for your reaction.




Dear Aad ji 

Thanks for the post ! I felt happy reading your response ( really dont know why!)
But you really got the point exactly what I was trying to make.

Knowledge about Good and evil and morals to follow particular path has all the value attached to it , there is no question about their validity 

But the problem is that to do as above stated i.e to follow morals as concious decision one has exist as Body /Mind complex with some name ( e.g Jatinder)  so Jatinder will try to follow truth living and same jatinder will reap its fruits But the sad thing is While Jatinder is Body/Mind it wil be in illusion of being seperate entity and so the pain fo seperation from Absolute( God)! 

As with the Grace of God this Identification with Body /Mind and Name Jatinder Breaks! Life becomes blissfull watching all this good and bad Kramas being earned and Similar Fruits being reaped again and again 

I would like to stop just here

Thanks so Much 

Jatinder Singh





Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh ji .

I understood what you have written and its really exactly the  understanding I have been given by Akal till now

Thanks for writing such a good Post

Jatinder Singh


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## SadeePuri (Jul 17, 2008)

*Fruit of deeds go along from one incarnation to another, untill we are blessed and karma is washed away by Guru's Grace (same as God'd Grace as Guru and God is ONE AND THE SAME).*


*dhulabh janam punn fal paaeiou birathhaa jaath abibaekai ||*
*I obtained this precious human life as a reward for my past actions, but without discriminating wisdom, it is wasted in vain.*

*poorab janam bhagath kar aaeae gur har har har har bhagath jameeaa ||*
*Because of devotional worship in my past incarnations, I have been born into this life. The Guru has inspired me to worship the Lord, Har, Har, Har, Har.*


*mittehi agh thaerae janam janam kae kavan bapuro jaam ||1|| rehaao ||*
*The sins of your many past lifetimes shall be washed away; then, what can the wretched Messenger of Death do to you? ||1||Pause||*


*jio jal shhodd baahar bhaeiou meenaa ||*
*I am like a fish out of water,*
*poorab janam ho thap kaa heenaa ||1||*
*because in my previous life, I did not practice penance and intense meditation. ||1||*​ 
*janam janam kae paap karam kae kaattanehaaraa leejai rae ||1||*
*Take to the Lord, the Destroyer of the sins and karma of past incarnations. ||1||*

*aavan jaan n chukee mar janamai hoe khuaar ||3||
**Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3*||

​


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## SadeePuri (Jul 17, 2008)

*pavarree ||*
*Pauree:*

*kaaeiaa hans sanjog mael milaaeiaa ||*
*Destiny has brought together and united the body and the soul-swan.*

*thin hee keeaa vijog jin oupaaeiaa ||*
*He who created them, also separates them.*

*moorakh bhogae bhog dhukh sabaaeiaa ||*
*The fools enjoy their pleasures; they must also endure all their pains.*

*sukhahu outhae rog paap kamaaeiaa ||*
*From pleasures, arise diseases and the commission of sins.*


*harakhahu sog vijog oupaae khapaaeiaa ||*
*From sinful pleasures come sorrow, separation, birth and death.*


*moorakh ganath ganaae jhagarraa paaeiaa ||*
*The fools try to account for their misdeeds, and argue uselessly.*


*sathigur hathh nibaerr jhagarr chukaaeiaa ||*
*The judgement is in the Hands of the True Guru, who puts an end to the argument.*


*karathaa karae s hog n chalai chalaaeiaa ||4||*
*Whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. It cannot be changed by anyone's efforts. ||4||*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 18, 2008)

Guru Piyario Jio,

imho there is a vast difference between the christian/islamic/vedic/other.. concept of "SOUL"..( everlasting or not is another part of this equation )...and the JYOT/AATMA/PARMATMA concept as i understand is in Gurbani/Gurmatt.

my concerns:
Guru nanak ji Sahib, Bhai Lehna Ji and Baba Amardass Ji..lived at the SAME time on Earth. Their bodies had individual "souls"....yes ?? Then Guru nanak ji placed "His JYOT" in Bhai lehna Ji and pronounced him GURU ANGAD JI.....and as Guru Nanak Ji was still ALIVE..He presumably still had his "soul" as well...and Baba Amardass Ji..and by now Bhai jetha Ji (Guru ramdass Ji had also appeared on this earth also with a new "soul"...BUT the "JYOT" of Nanak ji is ONLY in GURU ANGAD JI..no one else. (BTW this SAME JYOT is now in GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE)..

2. Gurbani says..EK JYOT doi moortee...referring to "married couple"....is this JYOT same as SOUL..obviously NOT...because husband and wife continue to have their own individual souls until their bodies DIE...but the JYOT can be TRANSFERRED WHILE ALIVE..as Guru nanak ji did in Guru Angad Ji..and subsequently by other Gurus to the successor gurus and in 1708 to Guru Granth Ji...
3. GURBANI tells us about MERGER of the JYOT...at DEATH.this JYOT is the one that MERGES.... the Drop of water merges into the OCEAN..the AAtma into the PARMATMA...there is no possibility of any "soul" left wandering "WITHOUT MERGER" ???..do "individual drops" of water have any significance OUT of the OCEAN ?? especially when the "BODY" (receptacle fort he drop ) is GONE with DEATH ?? Can these individual drops exist any more ??

4. Guru Amardass Ji in Anand sahib tell us..that WAHEGURU..the CREATOR made this SREER..BODY and PLACED the JYOT within....Thus it follows naturally that when the SREER DIES..the JYOT placed within it by the Creator RETURNS to its original place with the CREATOR. Guru Ji testifies that the SREER ONLY COMES into this world..AFTER the Creator places his JYOT within the BODY...and when the BODY leaves this world..the JYOT returns to the creator. Period.

5. Thus my conclusion..the Creator's JYOT..Guur nanak jis JYOT..Guru Granth Jis JYOT..and ALL JYOT is the one and the same....GYAAN.Manus ki ZAAT sabh ek pehchanbo..all Mankind is ONE....all come from the same creator..Aval allah NOOR upayah (GYAAN--LIGHT )..Kudrat ke sabh BANDEH...
The BODY is the one that makes "mistakes..commits crimes..does bad things..(karma"..)..and the body has FREE WILL - to get up and do Naam japp or sleep some more...to steal..or contribute daswandh.....and its the BODY that PAYS....here and NOW...after it becomes DUST..all accounts are closed forever. Just like ALL students have one "chance" at an EXAM..and everyone naturally wishes to pass at first GO...HUMAN BEINGS get this FIRST GO...Gobind milan ke EH TERI BARREAH...after that its up to the CREATOR....no one has ever RETURNED from the DEAD..to tell us what happened....not that i know of any even from 1469-1708..and after that....even the GURUS came ONLY ONCE !!! No one is allowed any MULTIPLE VISITS.

6. There is a Shabad by Bhagat Namdev Ji...regarding "rebirth".....AANT KAAL je lachmi simreh..etc etc. This shabad is commonly taken as "proof" of reincarnation/rebirth/karma etc.
Imho..Bhagat ji's ESSENTIAL MESSAGE is in the Rahao Tuk....Highway to MERGER with the Creator is thorugh NNaAM JAPP.
the other tuks are EXAMPLES. A) the perosn who spent his/her entire life in MAYA...buying shares, properties, amassing bank accounts...etc etc day and night thinking of WEALTH....even on his DEATHBED..his last thoughts will be...."whos going to look after my bungalow..who will inherit my shares..will my bank account be misused...will my buisness rival take over my business ?? etc and he will DIE with those THOUGHTS....FAIL as far as Naam japp is concerned. This person has "SIMEREH: wealth all his life...
B) the SEX CRAZED Person will be life long engrossed in sex..and will die fantasising about SEX..he is nothing better than  a prostitute....who "SIMMREH" SEX all life long...

What bahagt ji wants us to do..is START "SIMREHH" NAAM....that is Begin to LIVE THE LIFE of GURBANI from early on in life..so that by PRACTISE..this LIFE of GURMATT becomes so HABITUAL..that even on death bed (maybe in pain due to cancer etc even..) the NAAM SIMRAN will overcome all and we will die with the name of NARAYAN on our lips. This is NOT an EASY task...those who think they can ENJOY LIFE frst..and do simran later..are seriously MISTAKEN....Bhagat ji Kabir Ji warns..IF you DONT do simran while your hair is BLACK....be warned that you WONT be able to do it when your hair is WHITE !!! Old HABITS die hard....even approaching DEATH cant change them !!!

7. GURBANI - GURMATT is  a PRACTICAL LIFESTYLE. One has to LIVE GURBANI....TRUTH FUL LIVING...
do honest labour..waand chhako..naam jappo.....NOT IDLE sitting around "mumbling" and rosary rotating....while waiting for soemone else to "chharrawa" food/goluck for YOU !!( Modern sant babas derawallahs who do this sort of naam japp while their sewaks donate limos and air condoitned bhoras cellars for them to do naam japping councelling sessions in private with you know who are certainly NOT LIVING GURBANI ) THAAL wich tin wastoo paiyeeoh..KHAO...BHUNCHO.."eat".... Gurbani ''chew".....Gurbani..."taste".... Gurbani juices flowing in your mouth....  THIS is WHY the "WAHEGURU" was coming out of every single HAIR of Bhai MATIDASS when the saw began to saw him asunder..unlike the cries of Hai hai..hahakaar....or the Tera bahnna meetha laggeh on the Sizzling HOT PLATE in the height of SUMMER when people die of heatstroke in the SHADE..one is GURU..the other is His SIKH..BUT they BOTH shared LIVING GURBANI....hence the SAME RESULTS at DEATH !!

Forgive the random ramblings....some:happy:times i tend to "remix" a tady bit too much..my failing..unfortunately old habits...sorry if anyone is confused...not my intention..

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

Respected Gyani ji,

I have seen your write ups on some very popular sikhi sites on Jap ji sahib. 

These were every enlightening. 

If this is the level of understanding that you have what shall be the fate of people like me who have just entered into sikhi or intend to practice the same seriously.Who shall guide us.?

Without disrespect to anyone ,I also find that at many places Bani does not make sense to me .

What do you advise me as a new  entrant as I have not yet spent even an year in_ reading_ Bani and understanding the same so that I become Amritdhari. 

It seems I should stop thinking of becoming Amritdhari and concentrate on my job.

No offence meant. I am as serious as you are.  I write too much so that i get to know as to how other sikhs feel about the way I think  and in the process improve upon my understanding of sikhism.

I await your advice.

Regards.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 18, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Respected Gyani ji,
> 
> I have seen your write ups on some very popular sikhi sites on Jap ji sahib.
> 
> ...


 
Guru Piayario Jio, Gurfateh.

No offense taken meant or implied as always. We are all Sikhs..learners.
I am a third generation Gurbani Teacher - my great grandfather,  and grandfather/dadee ji... and parents were all Gyanis and teachers of Gurbani..
my point in this is what i learnt on the knees of my mum early was..that understanding Gurbani lies in its ESSENCE....ESSENCE ....... ESSENCE..
This is what i teach my students as well.... to go deep into Gurbani...not just the surface..look for what Guru ji is really saying.

2. Amrtidharee...what you have asked is akin to...which came first..chicken or the egg ??  To me understanding Gurbani and LIVING it in our daily life is infinitely more important than just becoming an "Amrtidharee" for the sake of it...Amrit of Gurbani comes first....then  the Khandeh Batte DEe PAHUL. I myself had become "Amrtidharee" at age 50..after LIVING GUrbani for 40 years of my life. Today I see youngsters of age 5 becoming "amrtidharees" just because the parents want them to..... then these reach age 18..and instnatly transform into clean shaven overnight...AHHHH FREE AT LAST !! an "amrtidharee" father i have known for 40 years...threw off his dastaar and shaved clean..at age 55...he had been amrtidharee at his fathers behest...not knowing anythign baout Gurbani..all he knew was BOW to SGGS when in Gurdawra...he still BOWS to SGGS but with a patka temporarily adorned..he told me I wanted to do thsi for decades..just didnt have the GUTS..and furthermore a "DOCTOR" must have a white dastaar..so when i retired and closed the clinic for good..i decided to give up the sham dastaar kesh etc also for good.
This is not to say that a particular age is good /not good.... the Younger Sahibzadehs of Guru Gobind Singh ji did wonders at tender age....what i mean is CONVICTION comes FIRST...and i can definitley say the Zorawar Singh and fateh Singh were CONVINCED to the HILT.
I read all your posts...carefully..you are on the right path. continue.
warmest regards and Best wishes...

PS. By the way have you read the articles on Japji Sahib by my Younger Brother..DR Karminder Singh Dhillon PHD. from Boston USA now in malaysia. These are serialised in the Sikh bulletin from Sacramento. Have a look and give me your comments on those as well....

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2008)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Aad ji
> 
> Thanks for the post ! I felt happy reading your response ( really dont know why!)
> But you really got the point exactly what I was trying to make.
> ...



drKhalsa ji

That is what I was trying to say. And Gyani ji also filled in a lot of the specifics. Things are much clearer now.


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 18, 2008)

Based upon Karma, it is stipulated that we are born into our current situation ie. family primarily. However, how we live our life depends on whether we live a conscious experience - Dharma - or live an unconscious experience, that is allowing Karma to accumulate, which is an animalistic nature. For example you must observe how animals live, accoding to their primitive reactive state. Dharma can cover Karma as that means you are living on purpose. People who live Dharma create their realities. Thus when you pray, know that the answer is on the way, and receive it in its various manifest forms when it arrives.

I believe we are creator's of our own UNiverse, it is just that the creation is not an external experience, it is a Spiritual one...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 19, 2008)

Guru piayario Jios...

imho..our GURUS SAHIBAANS...havent kept any secrets...ALL is revealed...as Guru Arjun ji has written..Pio Daddeh ka KHOL DITTHA KHAZANAH...the 1429 pages of Sahib Sri Guur Garnth Sahib Ji contains EVERYTHING that is relevant for us..SIKHS. ( Ever noticed that our "religion" is NOT named after the Founder..Nanakism....BUT after the FOLLOWERS..SIKHISM...further consolidated by Guru Gobind Singh ji in Anandpur Sahib 1699 as Waho Waho Gobind Singh Ji aapeh GUR..CHELA )

THIS is the "MIRACLE" of Sikhism.... the GURU..FOUNDER and the Follower SIKH are at the same LEVEL. Thus we have Guru Arjun Ji sitting calmly on Hot Plate proclaiming serenely Tera Bhanna Meetha Laggeh..and Bhai Dyala Ji sitting calmly in a BOILING POT and proclaiming the same Tera bhanna Meetha Laggeh..ONE is "GURU"..the other is "CHELA".....and this "MIRACLE" is not just once or twice..not just tens..or hundreds..or thousands..its in the MILLIONS.

GURBANI declares that the GENUINE GURU is PARAS....a PARAS is the mythical stone that can TRANSFORM anything it touches into ITSELF !! Thus the SECOND "Paras" is EXACTLY the same as the Original....just as nothing distinguishes the "Flame" of the millions of candles LIGHTED from just ONE ORIGINAL candle....similarly the "Flame" that burns in each and every Genuine SIKH is the SAME as the "flame" that the GURUS had from 1469-1708 and NOW burns inside the SGGS....

The GURU NEVER kept anything from US...NEVER treated US as any different..lower..less than HIMSELF....HE held US tightly to His BREAST..and still does....

FALSE and FAKE.."classifications"..have been created...to identify..and put in "boxes"....so and so is a "Brahmgiani"...so an ordinary SIKH is lower..less than him..etc etc. Sukhmani Sahib is quoted to reinforce thsi artificial classes/discriminations....Brahmgiani ki gat brahmgiani janneh....meaning ONLY a "Brahmgiani" can "KNOW" about another similar stage "Brahmgiani". To me imho..this BRAHMGIANI is AKAL PURAKH HIMSELF..and what Gurbani means is that ONLY AKALPURAKH knows about AKALPURAKH. Period. The Satgur..the GURU..the Saadh..the SANT..is NOW manifested in GURBANI of SGGS. NO other Saadh/Sant/Brahmgiani/guru/satguru..etc etc EXISTS TODAY..ONLY the Sacred GURBANI of SGGS.

This is in relation to some apprehensions raised by some of my dear readers on this Forum ( as well a s elsewhere)..as to why the GURU JYOT is being compared/questioned....as ONLY the GURU/BRAHMGIANI can know about such matters ?? The fact is the GURBANI encourages us to ask questions... that is WHY Bhagat Kabir ji asks the "Brahmin...supposedly infallible GURU of all.." as to WHY he too comes into this World the SAME way as anybody else ?? O Brahmin..if you are so special why didnt you come another way ?? This question had to be asked because the Brahmin wanted to be treated as different...infallible and et al...while the GENUINE GURU....the writers of the True GURBANI (SGGS) wanted to reveal the TRUTH. No where did our GURUS or the writers of sacred Gurbani anywhere even remotely attempt to say...I am DIFFERENT...better...higher..special...they all revealed so much HUMILITY..humbleness..serenity..sehaj..pyaar..ALL the GUNNS of AKAL PURAKH without claiming any such. WE are SIKHS..followers of THOSE "TRUE GENINE GURUS"...now their JYOT is is SGGS...thus we have the KEYS to all their TREASURES...without discrimination..each SIKH has his own personal KEY to SGGS....use it please...to UNLOCK the secrets of the JYOT of Guru nanak ji.

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## drkhalsa (Jul 19, 2008)

> Based upon Karma, it is stipulated that we are born into our current situation ie. family primarily. However, how we live our life depends on whether we live a conscious experience - Dharma - or live an unconscious experience, that is allowing Karma to accumulate, which is an animalistic nature. For example you must observe how animals live, accoding to their primitive reactive state. Dharma can cover Karma as that means you are living on purpose. People who live Dharma create their realities. Thus when you pray, know that the answer is on the way, and receive it in its various manifest forms when it arrives.
> 
> I believe we are creator's of our own UNiverse, it is just that the creation is not an external experience, it is a Spiritual one...



Dear Canuck.

I really Liked your post ! thanks for the post 

But I like you to elaborate more about the things you mentioned  especially living  a conscious experience and also hows it different from animals way of living ?


Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2008)

quote from Gyani Jarnail ji above
_
This is in relation to some apprehensions raised by some of my dear readers on this Forum ( as well a s elsewhere)..as to why the GURU JYOT is being compared/questioned....as ONLY the GURU/BRAHMGIANI can know about such matters ?? The fact is the GURBANI encourages us to ask questions... that is WHY Bhagat Kabir ji asks the "Brahmin...supposedly infallible GURU of all.." as to WHY he too comes into this World the SAME way as anybody else ?? O Brahmin..if you are so special why didnt you come another way ?? This question had to be asked because the Brahmin wanted to be treated as different...infallible and et al...while the GENUINE GURU....the writers of the True GURBANI (SGGS) wanted to reveal the TRUTH. No where did our GURUS or the writers of sacred Gurbani anywhere even remotely attempt to say...I am DIFFERENT...better...higher..special...they all revealed so much HUMILITY..humbleness..serenity..sehaj..pyaar..ALL the GUNNS of AKAL PURAKH without claiming any such. WE are SIKHS..followers of THOSE "TRUE GENINE GURUS"...now their JYOT is is SGGS...thus we have the KEYS to all their TREASURES...without discrimination..each Sikh has his own personal KEY to SGGS....use it please...to UNLOCK the secrets of the JYOT of Guru nanak ji._
/end of quote

This is very special stuff. Thank you. We are not cranes in meditation or parrots in dhyan. I am certain the Gurus answered any question they were asked, and continue to answer them today.  With sincere effort and an open mind these questions go straight to them.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Respected gyani ji,
Why restrict it to sikhs.?
Anyone who has an access to Granth sahib should have the key.
But we do help one another as human beings in advising as to how to use the keys when the groves are multiple and the key is single. 
Bani is Nirankaar.Even reading it should make one feel near the God.

Regards*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 19, 2008)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Canuck.
> 
> I really Liked your post ! thanks for the post
> 
> But I like you to elaborate more about the things you mentioned  especially living  a conscious experience and also hows it different from animals way of living ?




Dear Ji,

 I will elaborate. If we can imagine for a minute the beginning of the know Universe, we can speculate that all of the event's that have occurred have done so out of randomness. Or alternatively we can imagine that the event's that have led up to humanity showing up here on this 3rd planet from the sun, can also be considered one of the potentially infinite possible combinations of natural course of events, known as parsimony in phylogenetics. What this means is that if we take a single celled organism for example, it is bound by the forces, and biochemical reactions that occur simultaneously in any given time. If 'food' is present it responds to it by a process known as chemotaxis. This is the same primitiveness of non-consciousness that all species experience with the exception of humanity. All species before us were bound to the environment and did not have the capacity to 'think' and mold the Universe in any fashion that they desired. This means that all events leading up to humanity showing up on earth were not entirely random, they were the most parsimonious occurrences since the UNiverse's inception. Reality would not unfold in any other way if the Universe unless the Universe in the first few moment's was significantly different. But it was not, else we wouldn't be here.

Thus, step on the scene the humanity. Human's for the most part have the capacity of being aware, or living consciously, but if we examine history we see for the most part they have been living an unconscious existence. THe nature of humanity is one of ego, selfishness, power-struggle, inability to control sensory/environmental emotions/experiences. 

If you have perhaps heard Descarte's famous quote "I think therefore I am", upon which all of medical science has been based in the last 300 years, we can realize the inability for the individual or collective human consciousness to escape from the mind. What Descartes failed to realize is that, if he was thinking and the only thing that he could do was think, then technically all he is is thought. The most significant mistake was the fact that Descarte is not who he is because he can think, but he is who he is because he is AWARE that he can think. What is awareness? Awareness is Conscious awakening. It is moments in human existence where although we leave our mind, we delve into a space or Gap between being unconscious and conscious. We arrive to the Secret of all existence that is Source-Consciousness. This is the state that can be reached via meditation. This state can be reached by Spiritual Saints, and through history we see various examples. Source or God-Consciousness transcends primitive human/animalistic emotions, and awakens the human being to be the preceptor of their Universe. Where  once they were bound by the human body and mind, they are now unleashed to experience the Universe via being Awake and Aware of the Universe that surrounds them. 

This state in reality is achieved by very few. Examples include the Various Saints and Bhagats, and the Great Guru's. They realised that amidst human existence, amidst all the unconscious and destructive behaviour of the human mind, that God is Dwelling in all places and at all times. They were capable of seeing the Lord in animals, in fields and crops, in those who committed evil atrocities. They realized the Allusion of this primitive human existence and reached the emancipated state. This state which we the follower's of the Shabad Guru can only achieve if we live according to Dharma, else we live according to the Karma and create more Karma. 

Finally, from a researcher in the field: there's recent research in the field, which is called neuro-theology, where they've used MRI scans to observed what happens in the brain during meditation and prayer. And what they've discovered is that the hippocampus — which is the memory center of the brain — is also a relay station, in that all the impulses go through the hippocampus and are relayed to the other parts of the brain. So when a person meditates, chants, or prays, the impulses go through the hippocampus and then to a lateral part of the brain.

In other words, while a person is having an experience of transcendence, or God, there are indications on the MRI. So I would postulate, although I don't really know the answer, that built-into the design of the brain is that we're supposed to remember that we're spiritual beings after all. Because the memory center is the relay station for spiritual experience.

We often think of ourselves as human beings trying somehow to "plug into" our spirits. Perhaps it's the other way around. Perhaps we're spiritual beings trying to have a human experience. We have to remember that we live in our spirits, not in our bodies.


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## pk70 (Jul 19, 2008)

(quote canuk Singh)
If you have perhaps heard Descarte's famous quote "I think therefore I am", upon which all of medical science has been based in the last 300 years, we can realize the inability for the individual or collective human consciousness to escape from the mind. What Descartes failed to realize is that, if he was thinking and the only thing that he could do was think, then technically all he is is thought. The most significant mistake was the fact that Descarte is not who he is because he can think, but he is who he is because he is AWARE that he can think. What is awareness? Awareness is Conscious awakening. It is moments in human existence where although we leave our mind, we delve into a space or Gap between being unconscious and conscious. We arrive to the Secret of all existence that is Source-Consciousness. This is the state that can be reached via meditation. This state can be reached by Spiritual Saints, and through history we see various examples. Source or God-Consciousness transcends primitive human/animalistic emotions, and awakens the human being to be the preceptor of their Universe. Where once they were bound by the human body and mind, they are now unleashed to experience the Universe via being Awake and Aware of the Universe that surrounds them. 
This state in reality is achieved by very few. Examples include the Various Saints and Bhagats, and the Great Guru's. They realised that amidst human existence, amidst all the unconscious and destructive behaviour of the human mind, that God is Dwelling in all places and at all times. They were capable of seeing the Lord in animals, in fields and crops, in those who committed evil atrocities. They realized the Allusion of this primitive human existence and reached the emancipated state. This state which we the follower's of the Shabad Guru can only achieve if we live according to Dharma, else we live according to the Karma and create more Karma.

*canuk Singh Ji*
*I wish people realize that fact in the same manner as you worded out; I feel this is the point people miss while in intellectual flights. We cannot disregard others experience always as hallucinations or so.* *Personal experiences found in Guru Granth Sahib are so amazing that our limitations seem laughable.* *I adore your comments here because they have fragrance.*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Knowingly or unknowingly we all create karmas unless you explain the tri-badh.It should be a challenge for you. it would be a service to humanity pk 70 ji,.

Warm regards.
*


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## pk70 (Jul 19, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Knowingly or unknowingly we all create karmas unless you explain the tri-badh.It should be a challenge for you. it would be a service to humanity pk 70 ji,.
> 
> Warm regards.
> *


*
Sikh80 jio

I am just lover of Gurbani, totally grounded in it ,nothing appeals me better than it. NONE. What we do knowingly or unknowingly is part of His great Ordinance. I have no challenge against any one, the only challenge is for myself. Struggling to walk on Guru shown path, I fall, energized feeling by Gurbani, makes me stand again, it goes on. It doent allow me to follow the crowd.  Only thing I can claim is I am not what I was ten years ago. Service to community is an illusion people try to enjoy by saying so; the big service is done by Him through all of us ( HIS medium). Thanks.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 20, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Respected gyani ji,
> Why restrict it to sikhs.?
> Anyone who has an access to Granth sahib should have the key.
> But we do help one another as human beings in advising as to how to use the keys when the groves are multiple and the key is single.
> ...



Guru Piayario Jio,
Gurfateh.

Imho you have taken the "superficial" meaning of "SIKHS".... I dont mean just you and me..."Sikhs" we see or meet up with in the Gurdwara...in Punjab..typically wearing.... say...  a dastaar/karra/kirpan gatra....etc

My meaning of "SIKHS" is just about every human being who has access to the Divine Gurbani..in any langaugae..in any script...in any form...kirtan..youtube video...cds dvds computer based..multimedia.. etc etc...whomsoever the GURU touches gets the KEY....
Just as an off hand experience... I have a very dear friend in Uganda...an African Male who was just passing by a Gurdwara...he heard some "divine music" in a totally alien language...but he was drawn in..and after listening to the kirtan..he was so entranced that he just had to go to...AMRITSAR ( after finding out some relevant facts about what he had heard and what the place was etc etc...)

That was where I met him... in AMRITSAR outside the Baba deep Singh Gurdwara..I was lost in my own little world having travelled back in time to Baba Jis shaheedee....and was in vairaag..and suddenly i felt a soft tap on my shoulder...i had to LOOK UP to see what it was....a totally black person with skin like black ebony in shiny white dastaar gatra and all...... i had met a soul-bride !!! and we both had KEYS to Gurbani...mine was handed to me after 50 years of living in a Sikh Household..his was brand NEW handed to him just like THAT !!!

That was wayback in 2005 december..we now correspond daily....and have yet to get bored with "Questions about Gurbani"....he asks and i answer..or i ask and he answers...

All over the world i have acquaintances who are Ukrainian..greek..bosnian...albanian..canadian..germans..etc etc..and all were handed the KEY by Guru ji at odd tiems and places....and NOT all are "Sikhs" as you took the meaning to be....but they are certainly SIKHS of Guur nanak ji....

Warm Regards
Gyani Jarnail Singh:yes:


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks for clarification.What is this ..imho...??
I do have questions and feel that i should ask irrespective of the fact whether some members may mind.I shall do that in the thread of Hinduism and sikhisim off shoot. etc....I even do not remember the thread and the members are grappling with one another.it was my mistake. It seems.imho...!! 

what is this imho!!!


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *
> Sikh80 jio
> 
> I am just lover of Gurbani, totally grounded in it ,nothing appeals me better than it. NONE. What we do knowingly or unknowingly is part of His great Ordinance. I have no challenge against any one, the only challenge is for myself. Struggling to walk on Guru shown path, I fall, energized feeling by Gurbani, makes me stand again, it goes on. It doent allow me to follow the crowd.  Only thing I can claim is I am not what I was ten years ago. Service to community is an illusion people try to enjoy by saying so; the big service is done by Him through all of us ( HIS medium). Thanks.*



*Yes, Sir, it is a nice way of ignoring those who need most.Kindly reconsider. Yes, It is different if you do not want to share at all.


*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 20, 2008)

IMHO = In my honest opinion


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 21, 2008)

Canuck Singh said:


> IMHO = In my honest opinion


..

OR....also acceptable by me....

*I*n *M*y *H*umble *O*pinion....

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jul 21, 2008)

Canuck Singh said:


> IMHO = In my honest opinion


*
Thank you And Gyani ji ,Sir. 
The vibes I get from this is very positive.You should be very holy personalities. 

Regards.!!*


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## Ishna (Nov 20, 2010)

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but this is a really amazing thread to read with some really inspiring paragraphs!  I'd like to think I'm understanding, but I don't think I am.  I'm still a tad confused about hukam.

Reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it seems to me that nothing can occur outside of Hukam.  Therefore, no true "free will" exists (free will, ie, doing anything of your own volition, is an illusion).  We all act as we are guided to act (see post #14 of this thread, on page 2, by Sikh80, for gurbani supporting this).  Some will be drawn close, some driven further away.

If this is he case, why then are we instructed to follow Hukam, when we don't actually have a choice to follow it?  Is it an instruction to accept the Hukam, rather than struggle against it?  But if one was to struggle against it, wouldn't one be following Hukam anyway???

I also get mentally stuck trying to rationalise and justify the birth of a young girl (for example) in an impoverished country, who is cut up, and sold into prostitution before she's even 10, and her life is hell thenceforth.  Is it Hukam that this should happen to her?  Is it her karma?  Is it the free will (if it exists) of others forcing her into this situation?  This issue causes me great personal struggle, and perhaps it will diminish if I can better understand concepts like Hukam.

Many thanks in advance to any who choose to reply.

Ishna


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## Ishna (Nov 23, 2010)

The more I read into the idea of Hukam and free-will, the more I detect a contradiction within Gurbani. I'm sure that is not the case and it is my understanding which is flawed. I would appreciate assistance with this problem if possible, please. 

ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
Pūre gur kā hukam na mannai oh manmukẖ agi▫ān muṯẖā bikẖ mā▫i▫ā.
One who does not obey the Hukam, the Command of the Perfect Guru - that self-willed manmukh is plundered by his ignorance and poisoned by Maya. (P303)

ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਵੈ ॥
Jā ṯis bẖāvai ṯā hukam manāvai.
When it is pleasing to Him, then He inspires us to obey the Hukam of His Command. (P337)

ਮੰਨੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne hukam so pargat jā▫e.
One who obeys the Hukam of the Lord's Command, goes to Him openly.(P355)

ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਇਸੀ ॥
So sevak sevā kare jis no hukam manā▫isī.
That servant, whom the Lord causes to obey the Order of His Will, serves Him. (P471)

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨਈ ਤਾ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
Nānak hukam na mann▫ī ṯā gẖar hī anḏar ḏūr.
O Nanak, if one does not obey the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then within one's own home, the Lord seems far away. (P510)

ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗਾ ਤੈਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ 
Jiṯ ko lā▫i▫ā ṯiṯ hī lāgā ṯaise karam kamāvai. 
He is attached to that, to which the Lord has attached him, and he acts accordingly. (P476... not one of my favourite pages...)

So which is is??  Sometimes it is written we can choose to follow the Hukam.  Other times it is written that Waheguru directs us to follow the Hukam or not.  My brain is going to explode soon!

Thanks for any assistance (if possible).

Ishna


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## findingmyway (Nov 29, 2010)

It is good to bump up old threads that are worthy of reading! When interpreting shabads, it is good to try and look at the shabad as a whole. I'll do my best in sharing my understanding of the shabads pulled out with the help of Prof Sahib Singh's teeka:

Page 303
Whoever fights against hukam is following his own mind and becomes entrapped by the influences of maya. That person's head is full of lies. They accept lies as truth. S/he is stuck with useless arguments. S/he can talk in circles (make a fool of others) and make many attempts to earn dinner but no-one likes their false utterances. Like an abandoned woman he walks from one house to another. Whoever associates with him also becomes blemished.

Page 476
People who are ostentatious about their outward appearance to denote goodness (wear long dhotees and a janeu, wear a mala around their neck etc). Those people are not the men of God but are thugs of Benares. I do not like those people-they are not shy to take advantage of people for the sake of temptation. These people are obsessive about cleanliness of their pots and pans etc but they are crafty and eat the whole person (by exploitation-not literally). They wander around engrossed by themselves claiming they are pure and not touched by temptation. They are drowning in ego and are bringing down their companions too. He is following his path and acting accordingly. Those that find the true Guru (Waheguru) are liberated from the pain of rebirth (not the same as reincarnation).

My understanding is that we should all try to follow a Gurmukh's path and connect with Waheguru but not everyone will be successful. However, this should not stop us from trying as both the trying and the success or lack of are hukam.

Hope that helps, Jasleen


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## gaganrayat (Dec 19, 2011)

This is an excellent thread and I couldn't resist myself from asking a question.

A gentleman mentioned that tales of child born with a missing leg is because of the past karma sounds nonsense to him.... Is it Hukam ? What is the reason then? Please help....


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 19, 2011)

gaganrayat said:


> This is an excellent thread and I couldn't resist myself from asking a question.
> 
> A gentleman mentioned that tales of child born with a missing leg is because of the past karma sounds nonsense to him.... Is it Hukam ? What is the reason then? Please help....



Gaganrayat ji,

Guru Fateh.

Hukum is an acceptance by us as human beings and also to moive on and strive in our lives. Nature is not perfect as we all know but Ik Ong Kaar is, and nature is part of The Source. So, some are born blind as it happened in my family and some with other deformities. Some are born with great talents in many fields in the same token.

Thanks to the openmindedness bred in us by the SGGS, our only Guru, we can appreciate the technological marvels. We as Sikhs see this in a different manner than the other dogmatic Abrahamic religions are able to because for them, it all started  with Adam & Eve hence the marvelous advancement in science like the artificial limbs created for our injured soldiers do not mean much. 

**** Cheney is still alive today because  of the portable pump. If we had not  invented that, then he would have been long dead without the heart transplant.

So, for us all these advancements are part of the Hukum because the Hukum teaches us to strive to get better as beings as mentioned before. 

Unfortunately, the Creationists who claim to come from Adam & Eve can not come to terms with this inner dilemma of theirs despite making the best use of science to better their lives.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## gaganrayat (Dec 19, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Gaganrayat ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...





Tejawant Singh Ji,

Thanks for the answer... I know about Abrahamic Religions but some of the said things were probably too technical for me.. I understand when you said that some are born with deformities(condolences) and some are very talented and we just have to move on. but is that because of something they did in their previous birth?  and is it fair that someone faces the wrath of his/her actions from the past birth? 

I am sorry if you had answered my question in the reply but please simplify it for me.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 19, 2011)

Gagandepp Singh veer ji you might enjoy the following thread too,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/33225-what-is-karma-in-buddhism-sikhi.html

It was good and elaborate dialog at times a little cryptic.  See if that clarifies or helps you ask other questions or thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 19, 2011)

gaganrayat said:


> Tejawant Singh Ji,
> 
> Thanks for the answer... I know about Abrahamic Religions but some of the said things were probably too technical for me.. I understand when you said that some are born with deformities(condolences) and some are very talented and we just have to move on. but is that because of something they did in their previous birth?  and is it fair that someone faces the wrath of his/her actions from the past birth?
> 
> ...



Gagandeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact of the matter is that reincarnation is not part of Sikhi. It is the Hindu belief that our Gurus did acknowledge because the majority was Hindu then. But our Gurus also put a caveat that anyone who becomes a Gursikh can get rid of this belief.  That is why at the end of every Shabad where the belief of reincarnation is mentioned, you will find the tools how to get rid of this belief. 

After all it IS a belief because no one has come back to tell us what it was all about.

That is why Sikhi is not a belief system. It is  based on the Truth Seekers and Truth stands on its own. It needs no belief. Only make believe things need beliefs hence the world is full of blind faiths/beliefs.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## gaganrayat (Dec 20, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Gagandeep Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...






Sat Shri Akal,

Thanks for the link Ambarsaria Ji.

Tejwant Singh Ji,

So if it's no reincarnation hence no Karma.... so every life is a new beginning , if i have understood it right...

So on what basis is one born talented or with deformity?

I apologize if I am making things harder for you.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 20, 2011)

gaganrayat said:


> Sat Shri Akal,
> 
> Thanks for the link Ambarsaria Ji.
> 
> ...




Gaganddep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interaction is a learning process. It does not make things harder for anyone but to the contrary. After all we are all here to learn from each other. How hard that can be?

Secondly to your claim about what I said-" hence no Karma"- is incorrect and false. I never claimed that. Please read my posts in the thread Ambarsaria ji had posted before. You will see what I said about Karma.



> So on what basis is one born talented or with deformity?



The simple answer for a Sikh is that we do not know. Perhaps one day we shall find out.

Enjoy your journey.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## gaganrayat (Dec 21, 2011)

Sat Shri Akal  Tejwant Singh Ji,

Thank you for your views, your help is much appreciated. 

Regards,

Gagandeep Singhpeacesignkaur


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## Harry Haller (May 29, 2014)

This is an older thread on Hukam, with some interesting observations, I think Hukam is one of the most widely misunderstood facets of Sikhism, let us all try and get to the bottom of it, so as not to keep padding out other threads with debates on the subject, for me Hukam is the path of truth, a bit like a sat nav, that nags you when you deviate from the path, in fact my favourite saying is 'rerouting' which happens often because I keep deviating away from the path, and I then have to go twice as far to get to the same point due to my wandering. 

It is a complicated subject and yet a very simple one, I would be interested to hear others  opinions on what Hukam actually means to them


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## Sherdil (May 29, 2014)

Here's my take:

There are 2 objective truths about existence. There is a beginning and an end. Existence progresses in a linear fashion between these 2 points. The driving force behind this progression is Hukam. It is responsible for all thought and action. It is even responsible for the movements of celestial bodies. 

This reality is a play being put on by the divine. He is the actor and we are the characters. He has written the script. The play is so convincing that we forget it's an illusion. The actor loses himself in the role. (Thanks Akasha ji!)

The translators have written "obey the Hukam". I think it should be "accept the Hukam". The Hukam is not in our control, so not accepting it causes us to suffer. We drive ourselves farther from Him. Accepting the Hukam brings peace. We come closer to Him. According to the role we are assigned in the play, we accept the Hukam or we don't. 

***They translated "mann" to mean "obey". It can also mean "accept".***

Reincarnation is a synonym for suffering. The 5 thieves are the ones who make us suffer, because they rob us of our contentment. Being content is liberation from suffering (Mukti). Accepting the Hukam is a part of achieving contentment. 

According to psychology, these are the 5 stages of grief that a dying person goes through. In a way, we are all on death row:

1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance


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## japjisahib04 (May 30, 2014)

Ishna said:


> If this is he case, why then are we instructed to follow Hukam, when we don't actually have a choice to follow it?  Is it an instruction to accept the Hukam, rather than struggle against it?  But if one was to struggle against it, wouldn't one be following Hukam anyway???
> 
> I also get mentally stuck trying to rationalise and justify the birth of a young girl (for example) in an impoverished country, who is cut up, and sold into prostitution before she's even 10, and her life is hell thenceforth.  Is it Hukam that this should happen to her?  Is it her karma?  Is it the free will (if it exists) of others forcing her into this situation?  This issue causes me great personal struggle, and perhaps it will diminish if I can better understand concepts like Hukam.
> 
> ...


My simple observation is, 'ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ॥੨॥ Gurbani confers responsibility on to us humans for all mis-happenings and promotes self-analysis for realization of God’s presence within one's self. Our  Guru (Bani) holds humans responsible for their actions and we are  reminded to utilize our blessed faculties (divine intelligence) to comprehend the natural phenomena  or Natural Laws (Hukam). Answer for deformities in child lies in medical science or selling a little angel for prostitution is parents crime/ignorance, thus is not hukam. 

My understanding is since every individual is gifted with the divine message written in their antar atma(nanak likhiya naal) then why different people realize different message and in different perception. I kept on wondering if everyone is not capable of realizing the divine message or correct perception then why guru sahib tells us, 'hukam razaee chalna'. Which hukam gurbani is telling us? Divine message or manh ki matt.  How to make distinction between correct message. Take for example 'Hukam razzai', in gurbani it has been interpreted to move on with conscience with 'Bhakiya bau aapar - infinite love of God in positive sense but in Islam surrender is based on negative sense -Fear of God rather than Love of God. God-fearing as a basis of religiousity is a Judeo-Christain construct later accepted by Islam. Does it mean Muslims and Christian are spiritually dead? Both says surrender - but the perception is different then how to make distinction in order to be truthful with ourselves as well as with our creator. Others very conveniently interpret hukam as His bhana due to their ignorance in not following the correct rules or failure to perform successfully. Is it wisdom or blind faith? Are we strengthening the wall of ignorance or crushing?

regards


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