# Horoscopes - Janam Kundli



## Jazz (Apr 27, 2005)

For as long as I can remember, people from various religeons, and also my own sikh community, rely on horoscpes, well what I mean is 'Janam Kundli', this is taken into consideration at young life, at time of marriage etc etc.

What does sikhism teach us of 'Janam Kundli'.

What does Sikhism teach us of 'sants', 'babas', or people who say they can see/influence the future with an monetary offering.


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## Neutral Singh (Apr 28, 2005)

Dear Jazz,

The links may help you in learning more about the views of members on Sants and Babas:

1. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/bhatti-stands-by-her-work.1520/


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## Amerikaur (Apr 30, 2005)

Janam Kundli is forbidden in Sikhi, even though it is followed by some people.

Those that do follow Janam Kundli often say something such as "It can't hurt, and maybe it will help" or "I'm not hurting anyone by doing this"

But our Gurus taught us to have faith only in God.  Not in star charts, not in fancy stones that have one power or another, not in anything other than HIM.  If a Sikh follows such things thinking desiring to see some kind of positive change in her or his life, then isn't that leaving faith to something other than Waheguru ji?


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 30, 2005)

Amerikaur said:
			
		

> Janam Kundli is forbidden in Sikhi, even though it is followed by some people.



Please give some references from Gurbani.

I will be grateful.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh


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## Amerikaur (May 1, 2005)

Veer Balbir Singh ji,

There are many references in Gurbani that promote belief in one Almighty God, and nothing else.  While I am certainly not an expert in Gurbani, the first example that comes to my mind is Mool Mantra:

Ik Onkar, Sat Naam
There is but One Almighty God who is the Supreme Truth.

To reinforce this point, our Gurus spoke many times about how a belief in God must be a belief ONLY in God.  To "supplement" a belief in something other than the One Almighty was something that Nanak referred to as "duality".  
As written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, page 160:

Those who are in love with duality forget You, O God

If one goes to an astrologer, does that person do so because they want to make their life more difficult?  Or is it because they are seeking some kind of guidance or assistance?  If one consults a horoscope, does one do so to  to be lied to?  Or to be decieved?  Or, does one go to seek some kind of truth?   

What is truth?  Nanak helps define it by first saying what is False, in Asa Di Var:

False is the king, false are the subjects; false is the whole world. 
False is the mansion, false are the skyscrapers; false are those who live in them. 

False is gold, and false is silver; false are those who wear them. 

False is the body, false are the clothes; false is incomparable beauty. 

False is the husband, false is the wife; they mourn and waste away. 

The false ones love falsehood, and forget their Creator. 

With whom should I become friends, if all the world shall pass away? 

False is sweetness, false is honey; through falsehood, boat-loads of men have drowned. 

Nanak speaks this prayer: without You, Lord, everything is totally false. 


After that, Nanak continues in Asa Di Var to say what is true, or truth.



One knows the Truth only when the Truth is in his heart. 
The filth of falsehood departs, and the body is washed clean. 

One knows the Truth only when he bears love to the True Lord. 

Hearing the Name, the mind is enraptured; then, he attains the gate of salvation. 

One knows the Truth only when he knows the true way of life. 
Preparing the field of the body, he plants the Seed of the Creator. 

One knows the Truth only when he receives true instruction. 

Showing mercy to other beings, he makes donations to charities. 

One knows the Truth only when he dwells in the sacred shrine of pilgrimage of his own soul. 

He sits and receives instruction from the True Guru, and lives in accordance with His Will. 

Truth is the medicine for all; it removes and washes away our sins. 

Nanak speaks this prayer to those who have Truth in their laps. 



And yes, Guru Nanak spoke strongly against astrologers/astrological teachings/astrology, because by their nature they cause a person to look to a source other than the One Almighty God for asnwers and inspiration.  Guru Nanak warned about this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Page 904:

You calculate the auspicious days, but you do not understand 
that the One Creator Lord is above these auspicious days. 

He alone knows the way, who meets the Guru. 

When one follows the Guru's Teachings, then he realizes the Hukam of God's Command. 

Do not tell lies, O Pandit; speak the Truth. 

When egoism is eradicated through the Shabad, then one finds His Home, Reality. 

Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the horoscope. 

He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand Reality. 

*Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above all. *

*Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes.* 


I have to admit, the emphasis in the above stanza is mine.  Please forgive my indulgence, but I believe that conclusion is absolutely timeless.  Guru's Shabad is above everything.  There is none higher.

The Rehat Maryada also spoke specifically against astrology... 

Sikh Rehat Maryada
Article XVI - Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)



A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are: a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess. 

b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration. 

c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity. 

d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, *auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions*...
​The rehat goes on to speak of other rituals that are forbidden.

I will confess that I am not an expert neither in Gurbani, nor it's Vichaar.  If I have made any mistakes, I would be most grateful if they are corrected.

Veer ji - have I been of any assistance to you?

Guru Fateh,
Amerikaur


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## Archived_member2 (May 1, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Ameri Kaur Ji!

Your efforts are to be appreciated.

But my thirst is still there to know. Where our Gurus have said in Gurbani "Janam Kundli is forbidden in Sikhi?"

Guru's Vaak on page 904 from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that you referred, also does not say that Janam Kundli is forbidden.
Here Gurudev is suggesting a Pandit not to waste life in calculating and predicting alone but to go for NAM. As with NAM one comes to know the 'Tat'.
Gurudev has never asked a jyotish or anyone else to give up his occupation.

You also referred "There is but One Almighty God who is the Supreme Truth."
You stressed further that our Gurus spoke many times about how a belief in God must be a belief ONLY in God. To "supplement" a belief in something other than the One Almighty was something that Nanak referred to as "duality."

We all know that the world is existing. The present world consists of you, I and others. It goes on existing even when we believe it or not.
The duality does not disappear when we pretend to have faith only in God.
Duality also does not disappear by rejecting faith in something other than The Almighty.

Duality vanishes by true Simran of true NAM.

You have also referred Rehat Maryada. 

I would prefer to understand Rehat Maryada when I accept it as my Guru.

I thank you for assisting me. Please guide me further.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (May 1, 2005)

> But my thirst is still there to know. Where our Gurus have said in Gurbani "Janam Kundli is forbidden in Sikhi?"


dear Brother Balbir Singh

Your question seems to me bit irrelevant if you ask like this then I think you will hardly find any thing forbidden in gurbani As you might very well know that gurbani is no like do's and do'not's like many other scriptures like kuran . Gurbani hardly give us a command in particular time , place , scenario I just gives us direction 
same thing applies to many things like this 
about janam kundali , in first place what is purpose of making janam kundali , the very purpose is to decide according to time and place the person was born he is given a set of options by kundli readers ( usually pandits ) what to do and when to do and how to do this inculdes marriage , travel bussinessdeals.... and list is endless and I am sure yo  know all this 
now tellme is this no aandh wishwas ( rutualistic ) if you think it is then offcourse our Guru ji Give us direction in this situation not to follow it ( I know word forbidden would be too harsh to use )  
now any way if we think that still Janam kundali is just a form of science  that relate to stars and does not lead us to rutualism then offcourse there is no harm in it 
The message given to us by our guru ji is of non dualism and negativism does not exist for us as each and every thing is akal himself it our mind that make wrong ( negative ) use of something this same applies to Jnam kundali there nothing wrong in it but how people use it in their own and others life could be wrong 

Forgive me I have offended you in any way 

Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_member2 (May 2, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Jatinder Singh Ji!

You know the answers. 

You wrote "I think you will hardly find any thing forbidden in gurbani As you might very well know that gurbani is no like do's and do'not's like many other scriptures like kuran . Gurbani hardly give us a command in particular time , place , scenario . . ."

In my view, all jyotishis (astrologers) are blind like any other professionals until they come to know Simran.

All sciences and their studies lead one to worldly engagements. The push of Simran changes its direction toward God.

Our Gurus have not suggested anyone to change or learn a new profession to achieve Mukti.

Our Gurus suggested all to come to know NAM Simran.

Thanks for giving me a push.

Please offend me often when you feel like.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 2, 2005)

Bhen Ameri Kaur has given the example about auspicious /unauspicious days from GURBANI.... that should be enough for us to decide that GURU JI is saying..NO JANAM KUNDALII...how much clearer can this be.


The JK is prepared just to find out the AUSPICIOUS and INAUSPICIOUS days..and when GURU JI says there are NO SUCH DAYS....it means that JK is a Total waste of time.

In a janamsakhi incident it is related that Guru nanak ji went to "see" a very famous Astrologer at hardwaaar. When GURU Ji arrived, the astrologer closed his eyes shut and pretended to be deep in meditation. Guru ji slowly removed his money bag from his front and placed it at his back. After a while when he opened his eyes...the first thing that he noticed was that his MONEY was MISSING....and he was highly perplexed at who in his right mind would dare to steal from such a great astrologer who KNEW the Past and the FUTURE !!! Guru Ji told him his money bag was behind him....and when he was relived that it was all there GURU JI told him....YOU who profess to KNOW the Past and the FUTURE....DIDNT EVEN KNOW that his money as behind his back !!! JHHOOTH NA BOL PANDEY SACH KAHIEYEH....is RIGHT.

Astrology is nothing but a highly refined art of hypnosis where the practiotioner actually "makes" the victim "tell his/her own future and past"....he gives out VAGUE indications of GENERAL EVENTS....the VICTIM makes haste to CONNECT these vague generalisations into CONCRETE PAST events happening in his life.....and says Vah vah this man really knows his stuff...I have innocently tried out this stuff and man..it really works. ALl you got to do is don the right clothes, the right personality, etc...the moment you "tell" a woman...I think your husband has a another woman in his life...she will instantly pick up vague instances in her life and turn them into CONCRETE PROOF that her man indeed is unfaithful.....like the time he came home late from work and was a bit flustered....the time when he stayed back in the shop to talk to the salesgirl...ALL seem to Fall into PLACE..and the "astrologer" has his case made out for him....DIG his claws so deep into the victim that there is now NO ESCAPE....

After hundreds of Years of practise and fine tuning these masters of forgery and human manipulation have refined their art to a mastery of human emotions and insecurities...people are in a hurry to TELL them their own FUTURE and Past... In the WEST this "service" is performed by the PSYCHOLOGIST/PSYCHOANALYST...who earns BIG BUCKS listening to victims pour their hearts out

IF I wasnt an AMRITDHAREE and a Firm beleiver in GURBANi and GURMATT.. I could make a killing in astrology....its that easy ( and I KNOW FOR A FACT that I KNOW NOTHING about any PAST or FUTURE of anybody even myself !!!)

Forgive me

jarnail Singh


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## luthra_sumeet (May 2, 2005)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Satsriakal to all and Ameri Kaur Ji!
> 
> Your efforts are to be appreciated.
> 
> ...


 Balbir singh ji ,

I am giving this info from the given link about gurbani's vichar on astrology.I thought it can be very useful in this discussion.
http://www.gurbani.org/webart100.htm

*JOTISH* 


Do not tell lies, O Pandit; speak the Truth. When egoism is 
eradicated through the Shabad, then one finds His Home, 
Reality. Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the 
horoscope. He studies it and announces it, but he does not 
understand Reality. Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above
all. Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes (sggs 904). 
<><><><> 

Non-apprehension of Reality creates in us misapprehension that we are miserable, limited, helpless, tearful, desperate, weak-minded, fearful and sorrowful individuals. Our non-apprehension of Reality and the consequent misapprehensions are together called Maya — illusion, ignorance, delusion, false ego, conditioned consciousness, wrong identity, etc.). The scriptures conclude that, deluded by doubts and superstitions, most of us (over 99.9 percent) deal throughout our life with this Maya only! 

iqhI guxI sMswru BRim suqw suiqAw rYix ivhwxI: The world is asleep in the three-qualitied Maya and doubt (_Bharam_); it passes the night of its life sleeping (sggs 920).
jn nwnk kotn mY koaU Bjnu rwm ko pwvY_: _O servant Nanak, amongst millions there is hardly any mortal, who attains God's meditation (sggs 219).
There are many systems of forecasting like astrology, numerology, tarot cards, drawing and reading of horoscope, reading of face, palmistry, palm-leaf manuscripts, and so on. The Gurbani rejects such practice. It's nothing but acting in false ego or Maya; for all calculations are in the three modes of material nature — _Taamas_, _Raajas_ and _Saatav_. Those who practice these systems pullulate nowadays both in India and in the West in a futile hope of satisfying their unending lust, greed and selfishness. Since Maya is false, all such practices are false as well. We are urged by the Gurbani not to approve or believe in such Mayaic indulgence. 

pMifq pVdy joqkI nw bUJih bIcwrw: The Pandits and the astrologers study their books, but they do not understand inner inquiry (sggs 970).
gix gix joqku kWfI kInI]pVY suxwvY qqu n cInI: Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the hroscope. He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand Reality (sggs 904).
haumY sBw gxq hY gxqY nau suKu nwih: All accounting is in egotism. In this accounting, there is no Peace (sggs 36).
saux sgun bIcwrxy nauN gRh bwrh rwis vIcwrw]kwmx tUxy AausIAW kx sohI pwswr pwswrw: Saoun sagan beechaarane naou grah baarah raasi veechaaraa. kkaaman toone aouseeaaan kan sohee paasaar paasaaraa: The life led in the light of omens, the nine planets, the twelve signs of the zodiac; Incantations, magic divination by lines and by the voice is all futile (Bhai Gurdaas, Vaar: 5 Pauree:9).
Reactionary _Kaarmic_ actions performed in material consciousness create _Vaasnaas_: the undigested desires, psychological conditionings, latent memories, innate tendencies, inherent inclinations, self-limitations, dispositions, obstinate clinging to a fancy or deluded imagination, memories or subtle impressions of the past existing in our bosom. In turn — since _Vaasnaas_ produce thoughts and thoughts produce actions — these Vaasnaas seek their exhaustion through further causative or fruitive actions. For which, man moves from one field of activities to another within the span of his life; creating unending barrage of more _Vaasnaas_ in the process. 


The system of _Jotish_ is based on the premise that man's these tendencies are recorded under the astrological signs in which he is born. In other words, as indicated by the _Jotish_, the man takes birth through an astrological conglomeration of signs, also called astrological chart. By reading the astrological charts, _Jotishees_ (astrologists) pretend to predict the future events of one's present incarnation. Card readers, palm readers, face readers, etc., pretend to do the same. 

The truth of the matter is that the planets or the lines in one's palm or face do not cause the events in an individual's life to which he reacts either positively or negatively. It is our false ego or unenlightened existence that causes us to react, and does not let us stick to the Truth. Thus, all actions result from our mental drawbacks — desires and fears. 

The infallible Law of _Karma_ (_Hukam_) holds everyone responsible for what he is or going to be. We harvest exactly what we sow. If there is a cause, there is an effect. If there is a _Karma_ or activity (cause), there is a reaction or result (effect). This is the _Kaarmic_ principle that brings back the results of one's actions to him, to be worked out later. There is no escape from this Divine Law. 

jyhw bIjY so luxY mQY jo iliKAwsu: As the man plants so does he reap; his destiny is recorded on his forehead (sggs 134).
jyvyhy krm kmwvdw qyvyhy Plqy: One obtains fruits according to the deeds which he does (sggs 317).
However, a thief, a crook, a liar, a criminal, a materialist (_Manmukh_), a Maya-ridden (_Mayadhaaree_) or an ego-man always thinks that he can circumvent the system! Likewise, those who practice or believe in _Jotish_, etc., also think that they can not only predict the good and bad events in one's future, but, by maneuvering the planetary influence through some paid prescribed actions or rituals, they can also remedy the negative situations or their effects! 

piV piV pMifq joqkI Qky ByKI Brim Bulwey: The Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers read and read until they grow weary, while the fanatics are deluded by doubt (sggs 68).
pMifq vwcih poQIAw nw bUJih vIcwru]An kau mqI dy clih mwieAw kw vwpwru]kQnI JUTI jgu BvY rhxI sbdu su swru]kyqy pMifq joqkI bydw krih bIcwru]vwid ivroiD slwhxy vwdy Awvxu jwxu]ibnu gur krm n CutsI kih suix AwiK vKwxu: The Pandits read their books, but they do not understand the real meaning. They give instructions to others, and then walk away, but they deal in Maya themselves. Speaking falsehood, they wander around the world, while those who remain true to the Shabad are excellent and exalted. There are so many Pandits and astrologers who ponder over the Vedas. They glorify their disputes and arguments, and in these controversies they continue coming and going. Without the Guru, they are not released from their karma, although they speak and listen and preach and explain (sggs 56).
Before the final marriage vows are spoken, or before taking a journey, or before starting a new business, and so on, many pay dearly to _Jotishees_ to judge astrological compatibility of their undertaking. This is one example of how a conditioned, corrupt, materialist or a doubt-ridden mind functions. Under the influence of body-bound inclinations arising from emotional attachment to vanishing worldly objects, one loses his reasoning and discriminating intellect (_Viveka Budhi_), and end up not knowing Real from unreal. 

lY BwiV kry vIAwhu]kiF kwglu dsy rwhu]suix vyKhu lokw eyhu ivfwxu]min AMDw nwau sujwxu: He (_Jotashee_) takes payment for performing marriages; reading their horoscopes, he shows them the way. Hear, and see, O people, this wondrous thing. He is mentally blind, and yet his name is wisdom! (sggs 471).
pMifq joqkI siB piV piV kUkdy iksu pih krih pukwrw rwm]mwieAw mohu AMqir mlu lwgY mwieAw ky vwpwrw rwm]mwieAw ky vwpwrw jgiq ipAwrw Awvix jwix duKu pweI]ibKu kw kIVw ibKu isau lwgw ibs†w mwih smweI]jo Duir iliKAw soie kmwvY koie n mytxhwrw]nwnk nwim rqy iqn sdw suKu pwieAw hoir mUrK kUik muey gwvwrw: All the religious scholars and astrologers read and study, and argue and shout. Who are they trying to teach? Deep within, they are stained with the filth of emotional attachment to Maya; they deal in Maya alone. They love to deal in Maya in this world; coming and going, they suffer in pain. The worm of poison is addicted to poison; it is immersed in manure. He does what is pre-ordained for him; no one can erase his destiny. O Nanak, attuned to the Naam, lasting peace is found; the ignorant fools die screaming (sggs 570-571).
Who is likely to worry about good and bad omens? By thinking and worrying about auspicious (_Shubh_ or _Sagun_) and inauspicious(_Apsagun_ or _Ashubh_) omens, one falls victim to fear and anxiety. According to the scriptures, those who worry about _Shubh_ or _Ashubh_ are devoid of the Divine Name. As the Gurbani says: they do not have the understanding of the sublime essence of the Divine ( S_habad, Naam _or Word). Only an Illumined Being is above and beyond the influence of _Shubh_ and _Ashubh_ (_Sagan_ and _Apsagan_), thus immune from their adverse effects, temptation or spell. 

sgun Apsgun iqs kau lgih ijsu cIiq n AwvY: Good omens and bad omens affect those who do not keep the Lord in the mind (sggs 401).
eyko nwmu iDAwie qUM suKu pwvih myry BweI]haumY dUjw dUir kir vfI vifAweI]1]rhwau]iesu BgqI no suir nr muin jn locdy ivxu siqgur pweI n jwie]pMifq pVdy joiqkI iqn bUJ n pwie: Meditate on the One Naam, and you will find real Peace, O my Siblings of Destiny. Eradicate egoism and duality, and your glory will be glorious. ||1|| Pause || The angels, humans and silent sages long for this devotional worship, but without the True Guru, it cannot be attained. The Pandits and the astrologers read their books, but they do not understand (sggs 425).
_Jotish_ or any reactionary _Karma_ can never release man's personality from its misapprehensions. It's the unbroken contemplation on the Divine Essence that can set one free from the dualistic principle of Maya such as _Shubh_ and _Ashubh_. So long the ego-mind entertains its fancies (mental "filth"), one subjects himself to be cheated by _Jotishees_, bogus _Sants_ or _Saadhus_, mentally blind religious scholars, deluded priests or _Bhaais_, and so on. 

piV piV pMifq joqkI vwd krih bIcwru]miq buiD BvI n buJeI AMqir loB ivkwru]lK caurwsIh Brmdy BRim BRim hoie KuAwru]pUrib iliKAw kmwvxw koie n mytxhwru:After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate. Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don’t understand. They are filled with greed and corruption. Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined. They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase (sggs 27).
Baabaa Nanak spent all his life trying to set us free from doubts, _Karamkaands_ (worldly entanglements), unmeaning rituals and superstitions. He taught us to live by the _Hukam_ (Divine Law), and, thereby, take the life as it presents itself to us. He urged us to live a Divine Life as a Spiritual Being. A spiritual Being is always fearless. Because the Self, our Spiritual Nature, is not a bundle of fear and temptations; it's instead a Blissful-Conscious-Existance. Only upon Realizing this Truth, the moss of doubt (_Bharam_) will leave us alone. 

jn nwnk ibnu Awpw cInY imtY n BRm kI kweI: O servant Nanak, without knowing one’s own Self, the moss of doubt is not removed (sggs 684).
gxqY pRBU n pweIAY dUjY BrmIqw: God cannot be obtained by counting; the mortal wanders in doubt (sggs 510).
Among the millions of species of living beings (animals, birds, insects and worms), the human being alone is privileged to have the choice of action. No other sentient has this rare capacity and freedom to act. Along with the choice of action, the human being has been also endowed with the power to think and then act. However, in bondage, ignorance and greed we misuse or abuse this capacity and freedom and then blame some outside agency such as God, fate or destiny for _Shubh_ and _Ashubh_ omens. Thus, it's not the fault of Spiritual Masters or the scriptures if we keep falling back into the same "filth" of doubt, again and again. 

ddY dosu n dyaU iksY dosu krMmw AwpixAw: Dadda: Do not blame anyone else; blame instead your own actions (sggs 433).
jyhI suriq qyhw iqn rwhu: As is your awareness, so is your way (sggs 25).
jYsw syvY qYso hoie: As you think, so you become (sggs 224).
jyhI mnsw kir lwgY qyhw Plu pwey: As is the mentality, so is the meed (sggs 116).
Our deluded mind is the culprit. If we want to end our misapprehensions once and forever, then the Gurbani's advice is to continuously read the "horoscope" of the mind. This may lead us to a question: since mind is nothing but thoughts-stuff, how can one go about reading its horoscope? What is that tool which can help us read the mind's horoscope? 

The Gurbani has given us a very simple tool for this purpose! Every moment, there is a Spiritual and psychological battle going on between the Soul and the blind sense-infatuated mind under the delusive influence of the false ego. We can invoke this God given power of introspection to review the battle of the day in our mind in order to determine who won the battle - the good or the evil. As scriptures tell us, "good" being that which expresses truth and virtue and attracts the consciousness to God; and "evil" being ignorance and delusion, repels the consciousness from God. Thus, we, the material beings, can realize the All-auspicious within, here and now, only if we side with "goodness" and win the battle between the good and evil inclinations that guide our activities on the external bodily field of action. Maintaining continuos contemplation and association of the _Sat_ (Truth) within and without are sure aids to transcend the fancies of _Shubh_ and _Ashubh_. 


jb Awpn Awpu Awip auir DwrY]qau sgn Apsgn khw bIcwrY: Jabb aapan aapu aapi uri dhaarai. Tayu sagan apsagan kahaa beechaarai: When He kept Himself, All-in-all, unto His Own Heart, then who considered omens to be good or bad? (sggs 291).
bMdy Koju idl hr roj nw iPru pryswnI mwih: O human being, search your own heart every day, and do not wander around in confusion (sggs 727).
mn kI pqRI vwcxI suKI hU suKu swru]so bRwhmxu Blw AwKIAY ij bUJY bRhmu bIcwru]hir swlwhy hir pVY gur kY sbid vIcwir]AwieAw Ehu prvwxu hY ij kul kw kry auDwru]AgY jwiq n puCIAY krxI sbdu hY swru]horu kUVu pVxw kUVu kmwvxw ibiKAw nwil ipAwru]AMdir suKu n hoveI mnmuK jnmu KuAwru]nwnk nwim rqy sy aubry gur kY hyiq Apwir: To read the horoscope of the mind, is the most Sublime Joyful Peace. He alone is called a good Brahmin, who understands God in contemplative meditation. He praises the Lord, and reads of the Lord, and contemplates the Gur-Shabad. Celebrated and approved is the coming into the world of such a person, who saves all his generations as well. Hereafter, no one is questioned about social status; excellent and sublime is the practice of the Shabad. Other study is false, and other actions are false; such people are in love with poison. They do not find any peace within themselves; the Manmukhs (material beings) waste away their lives. O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Naam are saved; they have infinite love for the Guru (sggs 1093).
As indicated in the Gurbani, only that time is _Shubh_ which passes in remembrance of the Divine; only that place is _Shubh_ where the Divine is remembered; and only that breadth is _Shubh_ which is utilized to meditate on the Divine Essence. All else is just corruption — the unenlightened existence. 

Awgm inrgm joiqk jwnih bhu bhu ibAwkrnw]qMq mMqR sB AauKD jwnih AMiq qaU mrnw]2]rwj Bog Aru CqR isMGwsn bhu suMdir rmnw]pwn kpUr subwsk cMdn AMiq qaU mrnw]byd purwn isMimRiq sB Kojy khU n aUbrnw]khu kbIr ieau rwmih jMpau myit jnm mrnw: Those who know the Shaastras and the Vedas, astrology and the rules of grammar of many languages; those who know Tantras and mantras and all medicines — even they will die in the end. Those who enjoy regal power and rule, royal canopies and thrones, many beautiful women, betel nuts, camphor and fragrant sandalwood oil — in the end, they too will die. I have searched all the Vedas, Puraanas and Simritees, but none of these can save anyone. Says Kabeer, meditate on the Lord, and eliminate birth and death (sggs 476-477).
sws sws sws hY jyqy mY gurmiq nwmu sm@wry]swsu swsu jwie nwmY ibnu so ibrQw swsu ibkwry: According to Gurmati (instructions of the Shabad), with as many breaths as I have, I chant the Naam. Each and every breath which escapes me without the Naam — that breath is useless and corrupt (sggs 980).
sBsY aUupir gur sbdu bIcwru]hor kQnI bdau n sglI Cwru: Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above all. Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes (sggs 904).

If we want to release our personality from its misapprehensions, the Gurbani urges us to become _Gurmukhs_ (Spiritual Beings). All calculations are for the _Manmukhs_ (material beings) for his world is in the realm of calculations (egoism or Maya). There is no accounting or calculations for the _Gurmukh_; because he is relieved of all egoistic or mental calculations through the _Shabad-Surti_, or God-consciousness. 

gurmuiK sglI gxq imtwvY : The Gurmukh erases all calculations (sggs 942).
haumY gxq gur sbid invwry: Egotistic or mental calculations are relieved through the Shabad (sggs 1065).
qUM gxqY iknY n pwieE scy AlK Apwrw: No one has attained You by clever calculations, O True, Unseen and Infinite Being (sggs 140).
         —T. Singh



regards,
Sumeet


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## Archived_member2 (May 2, 2005)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

It is interesting to know that Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji knows so much about astrology and Janam Kundli.

Veernee Ameri Kaur Ji referred a wonderful Vaak from Gurbani 
"saahaa ganeh na karahi beechaar"
"auspicious happenings counts do not contemplate"  SGGS page 904

Gyani Ji interpreted this Guru's Vaak as "the example about auspicious /unauspicious days from GURBANI.... that should be enough for us to decide that GURU JI is saying..NO JANAM KUNDALII...how much clearer can this be."

The great Guru's word 'saahaa' is a combination of 'sa' (auspicious) and 'ha' (happening).

Guru Ji praised God's Hukum this way.
"sambat saahaa likhi-aa mil kar paavhu tayl." SGGS page 12 and page 157

I can well imagine that Guru Ji did not consult any worldly astrologer as He was in direct  contact with the greatest ONE.

The Supreme writes for everyone auspicious days.

"gundaataa vartai sabh antar sir sir likh-daa saahaa hay." SGGS page 1055

Sorry to say that incapable jyotishi like me try to calculate, read the written by HIM and waste life. 
May HE bless me with His NAM and thus showers His Grace.

I wish to mention here another valuable Vaak from Guru Ram Das Ji.

"aa-i-aa lagan ganaa-ay hirdai Dhan omaahee-aa bal raam jee-o." SGGS page 773
Calculating the most auspicious moment, the Lord comes into the bride`s home; her heart is filled with ecstasy.

"pandit paaDhay aan patee bahi vaachaa-ee-aa bal raam jee-o."
The Pandits and astrologers have come, to sit and consult the almanacs. 

-----------

Satsriakal to all and Sumeet Singh Ji!

Thanks for providing the references from Gurbani.

I have pondered over those since long.

In all those references, Gurudev is suggesting Pandits and Jyotishis that all calculations are worldly. God is not found in calculations.

Please don't let the mind convince that any other kind of calculation, also one different from of an astrologer, may help realizing God.

Gurbani says "tooN gantai kinai na paa-i-o sachay alakh apaaraa." SGGS page 140

It surprises me. Why some interpreters of Gurbani try to inject hate against a particular calculator though, instead of japping and spreading NAM, they spend their life working on a different estimator?

The most precious way to stop the mind counting is True Simran.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 3, 2005)

Gurfateh

In old time both astronmoers and astrologers were called Jyotishi and only now we use term Khagol Shastri for Astronomer.

Guru ji did know alamanac or Panchang fro the use of time keeping like the days of Gurpurabs or other such festivals.

Then during Vaisakhi 1699 it is possilbe thaT Guru did took use of Astronomers to decide the day for gathering why?

Well we must understand that Birth of First Master coincide with Vaisakhi and his Birth on Kartik Purnima(luner Month of Katik whith Vikrami era and fullmoon day) is nothing  more then pagan ritual of tubarhi being celebrated on the same day like a german festival on 25 Dec beacem Birthday of Christ.

So it is possilbe that Guru used Astronomers and alamanc for one more reason. As sun moves with respect to earth and we get to know as it enter various zodiac(Rashi or relativly fixed arrangements of stars).this thing made Arybhatta discover that earths rotates around sun.

But due to movement of earth with respect to sun and suns being visible in differant zodiac gives us one more inforamtion.Declation of soler Angle in either of Hemisphere and its change causes season to change.

So may be Guru called all Sangat(holy Company) to come after they were free from thier daily jobs of crop protection as it was the time of Harvest and after harvest Singhs could have got a good lot of resources to raise fund for WAR.

Then while leaving Chamkaur's fortess,Guru and his Sikhs used the stars to gauge the way.

and still in survey and in Army Almanac and steller positions are used to get way in remote Area to get longitude or latitude of Area even when GPS fails.GPS is artifiaicla sattlite which has its own almanac and does the same.

So It can not be ruled out that Guru did used astronomy but NEVER NEVER did they used Astorlogy as some foolish hindutva people say(they are sons of those people who called Arya Bhatta mad fro his saying that Earth rotate aroung the sun and such tendency of uniting Astronomy with Astrology ruined the acint Vedic Era astrolnomy).

As in Japu Ji saihb itself it is writtan.

Huaqqami Ander Sabh Ko Bahar Huqam Na Koi,Nanak Huqqami Jai Bujhe,Hau mai Kahe Nan Koi.

All universe works under will of God and if someone understand it then no ego is left.

So Horoscope,which tells by pseudo scince  that by the position of stars or plannet our life is gooing to be effected and by particular riltaism or stone we can undo damge has no place in Gurmat.As If Akal want something to happen then no object star or Plannet can prevent it.Rather all celestial objects move by will of Akal and no one knows it but Akal so why should we try to shamm with astrology or Horoscope.

Brother Balbeer Singh Ji Das hope you have got the point.


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## Archived_member2 (May 3, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

You wrote "So It can not be ruled out that Guru did used astronomy but NEVER NEVER did they used Astorlogy . . ."
Have I understood it correctly from your post that our Gurus were aware of astronomy and made use of it?

You also wrote "So Horoscope,which tells by pseudo scince that by the position of stars or plannet our life is gooing to be effected and by particular riltaism or stone we can undo damge . . ."
I never heard a horoscope telling anything like that. Perhaps you want to say that an astrologer tells stories like that.

Well I agree with you that such statements have no place in Gurbani. I have also not found those.

A Gursikh follows the Supreme. All stars and planets also follow The Hukum of The Supreme.
So a true Gursikh is like a star or a planet but never a follower of the Hukum of Stars and Planets.

Still I get astonished when Our Gurus use words like auspicious day, favorable 'Mahoorat', sulakhnee Gharee (time with good omens), counting of Lagan etc.

Perhaps you can advise if these words belong to astronomy.

Here are few Vaak from our Gurus.

"maah divas moorat bhalay jis ka-o nadar karay." SGGS page 136
The months, the days, and the moments are auspicious, for those upon whom the Lord casts His Glance of Grace.

"bhalay dinas bhalay sanjog." SGGS page 191
Auspicious is the day, and auspicious is the chance.

"baabaa lagan ganaa-ay haN bhee vanjaa saahurai bal raam jee-o." SGGS page 763
O Baba, calculate that auspicious moment, when I too shall be going to my in-laws` house.

"saa-ee gharhee sulakh-nee simrat har naam." SGGS page 819
Blessed and auspicious is that time, when one meditates in remembrance on the Lord`s Name.

"bhalo samoorat pooraa." SGGS page 618
It is a good time, a perfectly auspicious time. 

Humbly.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 4, 2005)

Gurfateh

Well Bro Balbeer Singh Ji,

As an ex Hindu Das here wants to inform you that as per astrologers Mahoorat or asupisius Days and Horoscopes are toatly differnat things.

As far as Horoscope is concern it is a sort of arrangement various palnatory and steller position during birht of a human ie time of birht.And based on then there are various extrpolations done to predict the life of that person.

If something wrong is predicted then to undo it vaour rituals are told.Like wearing stone etc.

Veras Mahurat is based upon the fact as per astrologers the day which is good to do the job in question based upon steller position.Well due to this stupid thing in past hindus were defeated time and again by foregn invaders.

Sometime startegecally time was ripe to attack but they relyed on astrologer.In present also in may case BJP even lost election due to some of thier people going in for astrologers instead fo doing fgood for Hindus or Indians.

But as per Gurmat as you have already givne the Qoute that Day is Best or Good or Asupisouos when Akal does mercy on us and we have devotion to that.So it is Akal and will of the same which mattter.

Forgive Das if wrong is writtan.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 4, 2005)

Excellent article by Luthra Sumeet. Thank You. Stay in Chardikalla

Jarnail Singh


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## Amerikaur (May 6, 2005)

Perhaps some of the confusion about "an auspicious time" in Gurbani is because "auspicious" has two definitions.  

The primary definition is "of favorable circumstances".   

But in the vernacular, "auspicious" is most commonly used by it's secondary definition:  "lucky"



Can Sikhs believe in luck?


My guess is...no.  Sikhs can only believe in Waheguru.  Believing in luck means believing in something OTHER than Waheguru for one's fortune.

But certainly Sikhs can recognize when a situation is favorable.   And Gurbani's constant reminder to remember God reminds us to not get lost in the "I worked for it, I earned it, I found it..." and remember that it is Waheguru within us...within the world...that helps the circumstances be favorable.

That is just my thoughts, though!


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## Archived_member2 (May 6, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

You wrote "As far as Horoscope is concern it is a sort of arrangement various palnatory and steller position . . ."
Then you wrote "Veras Mahurat is based upon the fact as per astrologers the day which is good to do the job in question based upon steller position."

Have I understood rightly that a horoscope and a mahurat, both are based upon stellar positions?

Our Gurus have used both words like 'mahurat' and 'horoscope'. 

Does this show that they knew stellar positions?

You wrote at the end "Forgive Das if wrong is writtan."

Please write something wrong first.

-----------

Veernee (the brave and sister of a veer) Ameri Kaur Ji!

For a true Gursikh, every time is auspicious as he lives with God's Hukum constantly.

It does not matter if someone calls him 'lucky' or not.

He also does not try to choose or recognize a favorable situation.

For him all situations are Godly and favorable.

-----------

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

The article suggested by Sumeet Singh Ji is excellent as it contains great Guru's Vaak.

But some extended explanations from the writer, in my view, are not in accordance with Gurbani.

He wrote "There are many systems of forecasting like astrology, numerology, tarot cards, drawing and reading of horoscope, reading of face, palmistry, palm-leaf manuscripts, and so on. The Gurbani rejects such practice."

I have gone through all the references the writer has mentioned in this article. Not even one Vaak from our Gurus rejects any kind of practice.

The writer also mentioned "If we want to end our misapprehensions once and forever, then the Gurbani's advice is to continuously read the "horoscope"of the mind."

I have not come across one instance when our Gurus advised us to continuously read the "horoscope" of the mind.
The only way to end misapprehensions is Simran as suggested by our Gurus.

After that the writer raises questions "since mind is nothing but thoughts-stuff, how can one go about reading its horoscope? What is that tool which can help us read the mind's horoscope? "
And he answers to him "The Gurbani has given us a very simple tool for this purpose!"

This tool, according to him, is "Every moment, there is a Spiritual and psychological battle going on between the Soul and the blind sense-infatuated mind under the delusive influence of the false ego."

Is this really a tool? I do not know where Gurbani suggests us for this very simple tool?

The author suggests the readers further "We can invoke this God given power of introspection to review the battle of the day in our mind in order to determine who won the battle - the good or the evil."

These seem to be the author's personal thoughts. 

For God, or on the spiritual way to God, there is no good or evil, paapa or punya. 

For innumerous times our Gurus sang this.

Respectfully.


Balbir Singh


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## sskohli (May 24, 2005)

Hi All,
Waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh
This was really very interesting read..and i want to add my thoughts on it.
I think i can speak from both sides...cos i have learn astrology and also am an avid sikhism follower.
I think our religion is the most rational religion ever and we are not narrow in our approach and embrace almost everything which seems logical.
If we speak of astrology, i think its just a science as physics or biology, just cos the europeans didn't discover it and its not included in the curriculum does not mean its useless.
Our Guru Granth Sahib has taken a lot from the vedas, infact it is said that the Guru Granth Sahib, is the essence of the four vedas. If we consider that then Astrology is called a Veda Anga or a limb of the vedas, infact it is called the Eye of the Vedas. 
Astrology, in fact all education in the vedic times was taught, as word of mouth and thas how it was carried over generations. With the numerous invasions in india, this science was not taken further or was not communicated as it shud've been, thas why the discrepancy. The problem is not with the science but the people who practice it without enough knowledge and just want to make a fast buck.
I think we should appreciate the fact that the sages during that time were able to develop all the complex calculations predicting the motion of planets, etc using astrology. Not going further, even our Nanakshahi calendar is based on the same calculations.
I have read the works of many of these sages and there is no mention of religion there, its just a science as any other and i guess shud be treated as such, no more no less.
And what our gurus were talking about was that the pandits at those times (not astrologers...there is a Big difference..) were exploiting ppl with their practices which the gurus wanted to curb so they were agains these pandits and their rituals and not astrology.
Also if you see now, we are also following the same rituals, not getting the essence out of Guru Granth Sahib, but carrying out daily practices which lead to no end.
Thanks
Sandeep


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## devinesanative (Nov 14, 2005)

I agree with Dear SSKOHLI that astrology is a science and has nothing to do with any religion of he world over.

Just like we predict the weather forcasting so is astrology.

If tides can occur due to the gravitational pull of the MOON , then why not does MOON have the effect of the Human beings , as Human beings also contain water , and water is also magnetic in nature.

so are the relations of other planets.

Astrology just acts as the guide posts , is not for miracles to happens ......


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## devinesanative (Nov 14, 2005)

Merely Jaaaping the Naam or Believing in Waheguru won't suffice unless and until action is taken.

Because , When actions are taken then only it shows that a person has faith and belief in waheguru.

But if there is constant fear and insecurity in taking actions , then it does reflect that person has no belief and faith in wahe guru ..

Jaaping the Naam and believing in Waheguru without actions will merely make a person lethargic or may be sometimes "chaaplus" , "chela" , "chamcha","chronies".

The Luck is that all the human beings have been endowed with each and every thing that is necessary for survival,and if action be not taken to utilize that resources won't make anyone Lucky.


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## rosethorne (Jan 26, 2006)

WJKK WJKF,

Dear Gursikhs, Amerikaurji said, Can Sikhs believe in luck?My guess is...no.



But Me can say about this that when a person borns in a family, Is actually his luck is. And we very oftenly And surely Amerikaurji also saying this, That We are having good fate of bieng in Gursikhi from Birth.
Why we mold the things into our kind of. Astrology is pure science like that Everyone have a right to see his future if he can. And every Gursikh in world is not Gyani Dhiani. Aren't we keen into our next coming day? Then Astrology is for to see that before it happens. It is not of ritualism. It is pure science and it depends totally on a sensible brain, how to accept and react on that.
Guru Amardassji's bani showing us that Every Gursikh have Nine treasures and eighteen spiritual powers until He has the NAAM. Without the NAAM there is nothing. 99% of Gursikhs, Who are having so much NAAM in them but living with Ego. We are not the supreme Humans. First we have to serve love to all humans. Planets are made by ther CREATOR, AKALPURAKH. And the creatures on earth also. Whereever our sight can go, whatever we can feel, whatever we can Hear, every thing is created by AKALPURAKH. Jyotish is not a question at all. But the main question is to get the NAAM. And it is not possible in every Gursikh's life. Because every person is having his own kind of thinking.Else everything evry body can find in this Waak.

SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: One who knows God, and who lovingly focuses his attention on the One Word of the Shabad, keeps his spirituality intact. The nine treasures and the eighteen spiritual powers of the Siddhas follow him, who keeps the Lord enshrined in his heart. Without the True Guru, the Name is not found; understand this, and reflect upon it. O Nanak, through perfect good destiny, one meets the True Guru, and finds peace, throughout the four ages. || 1 ||(Page 649)


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## manbir (Mar 3, 2006)

We go to a jyotshi out of fear of unknown.
We want to know about our future because we are afraid of future.
We are afraid of future because we know that we cannot solve all our problem.
Why we cannot solve all our problems because we take events in our life as problems.
Problems are Problems when you consider them as Problems.
Guru tells us -- If you leave everything on Almighty He solves all your problems. 
Then the events in life no longer are problems, rather they are HIS blessings.


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## Archived_member2 (Mar 15, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

One may ask "The Gurus did not instruct us to reject astrology but they also did not suggest us to believe in astrology."

One may get sick. The belief in doctors alone does not help.

The wise never instruct a sick person to believe in medicine when he needs a doctor and the medicine. He takes one to the doctor or requests him for a visit. 
The doctor is consulted and the patient is cured by the right medicine.

The Gurus did not ask a Sikh to reject or believe in astrology or an astrologer. They sang about consultation with them.

Guru Raam Daas Ji is singing. 

"aa-i-aa lagan ganaa-ay hirdai Dhan omaahee-aa bal raam jee-o."
The most auspicious moment has come as calculated, heart is filled with ecstasy bal raam jee-o.

"pandit paaDhay aan patee bahi vaachaa-ee-aa bal raam jee-o."
The Pandits and astrologers have come. Horoscopes, almanacs are consulted bal raam jee-o.

"patee vaachaa-ee man vajee vaDhaa-ee jab saajan sunay ghar aa-ay."
The horoscope is consulted, mind vibrated with bliss when heard that beloved would come home.

"gunee gi-aanee bahi mataa pakaa-i-aa fayray tat divaa-ay." SGGS 773-14
The virtuous and wise men sat down and decided to perform the essence of marriage.

I feel no one should miss the opportunity to meet the virtuous and wise men, Gurdev is singing about.


Balbir Singh


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## bhupinder malhotra (Aug 15, 2007)

Jazz said:


> For as long as I can remember, people from various religeons, and also my own sikh community, rely on horoscpes, well what I mean is 'Janam Kundli', this is taken into consideration at young life, at time of marriage etc etc.
> 
> What does sikhism teach us of 'Janam Kundli'.
> 
> What does Sikhism teach us of 'sants', 'babas', or people who say they can see/influence the future with an monetary offering.


dear friend
               if you had little knowledge of vedic astrology / birth chart/ janam kundli, you would not have posed this hypothetical question relating to sikhism.because it is essentially related to every human being who wants to know his future.bhupinder malhotra


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## Astroboy (Aug 15, 2007)

What about the tuk that says, the jyotshi talks about the various worlds but doesn't know what is kept behind his back?

This only points to the direction that you cannot trust the jyotshis words.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 17, 2007)

Comments by Amerikaur

There is no need to be defensive about Astrology and Sikhism. 

If one goes to an astrologer, does that person do so because they want to make their life more difficult? Or is it because they are seeking some kind of guidance or assistance? If one consults a horoscope, does one do so to to be lied to? Or to be decieved? Or, does one go to seek some kind of truth? 


One would visit an astrologer when one needs guidance. An astrologer is not a magician but a Wise Person who is able to guide you out of your difficulty. Just as in any trade religious or non-religious there are crooks, they equally exist in this profession. 

Comments by Gyani Jarnail Singh

Bhen Ameri Kaur has given the example about auspicious /unauspicious days from GURBANI.... that should be enough for us to decide that GURU JI is saying..NO JANAM KUNDALII...how much clearer can this be.You said the same about Kalyug in another thread when Guru ji have written many verses explaining Kalyug in SGGS. You are a Gyani, please have respect for your trade.

The JK is prepared just to find out the AUSPICIOUS and INAUSPICIOUS days..and when GURU JI says there are NO SUCH DAYS....it means that JK is a Total waste of time.

You know nothing about Astrology. 

In a janamsakhi incident it is related that Guru nanak ji went to "see" a very famous Astrologer at hardwaaar. When GURU Ji arrived, the astrologer closed his eyes shut and pretended to be deep in meditation. Guru ji slowly removed his money bag from his front and placed it at his back. After a while when he opened his eyes...the first thing that he noticed was that his MONEY was MISSING....and he was highly perplexed at who in his right mind would dare to steal from such a great astrologer who KNEW the Past and the FUTURE !!! Guru Ji told him his money bag was behind him....and when he was relived that it was all there GURU JI told him....YOU who profess to KNOW the Past and the FUTURE....DIDNT EVEN KNOW that his money as behind his back !!! JHHOOTH NA BOL PANDEY SACH KAHIEYEH....is RIGHT.

Guru ji here was exposing the pretence of one Jyotshi/pandit and not a criticism of astrology.

Astrology is nothing but a highly refined art of hypnosis where the practiotioner actually "makes" the victim "tell his/her own future and past"....he gives out VAGUE indications of GENERAL EVENTS....the VICTIM makes haste to CONNECT these vague generalisations into CONCRETE PAST events happening in his life.....and says Vah vah this man really knows his stuff...I have innocently tried out this stuff and man..it really works. ALl you got to do is don the right clothes, the right personality, etc...the moment you "tell" a woman...I think your husband has a another woman in his life...she will instantly pick up vague instances in her life and turn them into CONCRETE PROOF that her man indeed is unfaithful.....like the time he came home late from work and was a bit flustered....the time when he stayed back in the shop to talk to the salesgirl...ALL seem to Fall into PLACE..and the "astrologer" has his case made out for him....DIG his claws so deep into the victim that there is now NO ESCAPE....


Astrology has nothing to do with hypnosis. This is your own shortfall. A proof of confusion of your mind.


After hundreds of Years of practise and fine tuning these masters of forgery and human manipulation have refined their art to a mastery of human emotions and insecurities...people are in a hurry to TELL them their own FUTURE and Past... In the WEST this "service" is performed by the PSYCHOLOGIST/PSYCHOANALYST...who earns BIG BUCKS listening to victims pour their hearts out.

Astrology is a Science. There is nothing to forge here.

IF I wasnt an AMRITDHAREE and a Firm beleiver in GURBANi and GURMATT.. I could make a killing in astrology....its that easy ( and I KNOW FOR A FACT that I KNOW NOTHING about any PAST or FUTURE of anybody even myself !!!)

After noting your comments, I have serious doubts of your above statements however I do wholeheartedly agree with your last comments in brackets. To practice Astrology one needs Wisdom, Logic and a clear Mind. So just as well you are not practicing this art.

Forgive me

“Aisa kamm mooley na keejey jit ant pashotayea. “ – Guru Amar Dass ji.


Comments by Balbir ji

In my view, all jyotishis (astrologers) are blind like any other professionals until they come to know Simran.All sciences and their studies lead one to worldly engagements. The push of Simran changes its direction toward God.

A true Astrologer does not practice this art without Naam Simran. Predicting someones future is not a game. It has consequences. The Jyotishi is subjected to the effects of mis-interpretation. There are very many astrologers who conduct this trade in pretence.  They will suffer their own fate. The same can equally be said about people that pretend to selectively follow Sikhism and pretend to “live gurbani” and claim to have a third eye vision when it is blatantly clear that they have a very poor understanding of the subject.

Article put forward by Luthra Sumeet ji

*JOTISH* by T.Singh

Do not tell lies, O Pandit; speak the Truth. When egoism is 
eradicated through the Shabad, then one finds His Home, 
Reality. Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the 
horoscope. He studies it and announces it, but he does not 
understand Reality. Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above
all. Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes (sggs 904)…………………………


There are very many authors who have published their frustrations on the net. If they had put this much effort on understanding this topic, they would have become much wiser.


Comments by Vijaydeep ji

In old time both astronmoers and astrologers were called Jyotishi and only now we use term Khagol Shastri for Astronomer.


There is a big difference between Astronomers and Astrologers. Please read around on the subject.

As in Japu Ji saihb itself it is writtan.

Huaqqami Ander Sabh Ko Bahar Huqam Na Koi,Nanak Huqqami Jai Bujhe,Hau mai Kahe Nan Koi.

Astrology does not contradict that statement. It takes aid from that fact in predicting what is written in your “Hukam”

All universe works under will of God and if someone understand it then no ego is left.


Alas your understanding is very poor of both Gurbani and Astrology.

So Horoscope,which tells by pseudo scince that by the position of stars or plannet our life is gooing to be effected and by particular riltaism or stone we can undo damge has no place in Gurmat.As If Akal want something to happen then no object star or Plannet can prevent it.Rather all celestial objects move by will of Akal and no one knows it but Akal so why should we try to shamm with astrology or Horoscope.

Brother Balbeer Singh Ji Das hope you have got the point.

Let alone Balbir getting the point, you are yourself totally off the mark.


As an ex Hindu Das here wants to inform you that as per astrologers Mahoorat or asupisius Days and Horoscopes are toatly differnat things.

As far as Horoscope is concern it is a sort of arrangement various palnatory and steller position during birht of a human ie time of birht.And based on then there are various extrpolations done to predict the life of that person.

If something wrong is predicted then to undo it vaour rituals are told.Like wearing stone etc.

Veras Mahurat is based upon the fact as per astrologers the day which is good to do the job in question based upon steller position.Well due to this stupid thing in past hindus were defeated time and again by foregn invaders.

Firstly you Hindu background has nothing to do with astrology and secondly you know “ILL DA NAAM KUKKAR” about astrology. Do not comment on what you do not understand.

Forgive Das if wrong is writtan.

Yes, what you have written in wrong. Why verbally puke in the first place? And then ask for forgiveness later.

Comments by sskohli

Your comments are very much to the point on correctness. Only if these people would read around the topic in question before giving their opinions. 



There is no clash between Astrology and Sikhism. It is true to say that Astrology will not lead you to Mukti but It has the ability to predict to considerable accuracy what the future holds for you. A true astrologer will guide you like a Wise Man and not mislead you. 

So please do not mix issues here. 

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Aug 18, 2007)

> All universe works under will of God and if someone understand it then no ego is left.
> 
> 
> Alas your understanding is very poor of both Gurbani and Astrology.



Dear Friend 

It will of great help if Such Great Personalities like yourself  who can know the most correct things also guide some low creatures like me and give the right understanding 
atleast in the above case.

Just telling somebody that he is wrong, hardly make sense to him and also others who read such post so please take some time to elaborate further

Every effort is fully appreciated 

Jatinder Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 20, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> It will of great help if Such Great Personalities like yourself who can know the most correct things also guide some low creatures like me and give the right understanding atleast in the above case.
> 
> ...


 

These issues will come to light when there is a greater desire for knowledge. With respect, the time is not right yet for me to tell you and for you to digest it. 

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Aug 20, 2007)

> These issues will come to light when there is a greater desire for knowledge. With respect, the time is not right yet for me to tell you and for you to digest it.



No problem 
one is already taking care of me do if you dont want to say it then obviously I dont need it 

Thanks for taking care of my Digestion 

Jatinder Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 20, 2007)

Do not be disappointed Dear Brother,

Here is some background to Astrology.

The Vedic sages had scientific methods to propagate Vedic knowledge. They had  the _vedangas_.

_Siksha_ meant that _Veda_s had to be recited compulsorily every  day in a systematic manner. The mantras had to be chanted in a methodical,  scientific way. For this, there was _jata-patha_ had two forms :  _ayvakrita jata-patha_ or 'reversed recitation'. To repeat  _ishavasyam_, as it is was termed _avyakrita_ and to reverse it as  vasyam isha meant it was _vyakrita. _This system was so complex and so  scientific those modern scientific minds would be bewildered at their own  haphazard ways of training! Then there was _ghana-patha_, and so on. This  was the grand style of teaching so that not a single letter was lost.
_Vyakarana_ or grammar helped teachers teach the rules of conjunction  and interjunction, _sandhis_ and _samasas,_ the _lingas_ and  _vibhaktis_ etc., so that no truth or mantra was distorted.
_Chandas _was meant to give tunes to the Vedic mantras. Suppose  students were to repeat mantras in a dry mode. They would become bored. So, the  wonderful tunes of mantras, especially of the _Sama_ chants.
_Nirukta_ was meant to serve the purpose of a thesaurus. Sage yaska  used the dictionary. _Nighantu_, to develop this system.
_Jyotisha_. The sages were not parrots, just keeping the mantras in  memory had they been parrots, the mantras would have been powerless and useless  and Hinduism would not have had its vitality today. So, each sage performed  sacrifices described in the _Vedas_, practiced _sadhana_ as described  everyone could not perform all the sacrifices and all the _sadhanas_  mentioned, they were divided into schools and institutions, and each independent  schools and institutions, and each independent school became a custodian of a  particular sacrifice rite and portion of the Veda. In order to follow Vedic  injunction at the right time and at the right season, the science of astrology  or _Jyotisha _was developed. Calculating the Zodiacal positions, the  nature, position, effects etc, of the stars and planets was a wonderful science  that was developed independently to help humanity. I generally ask this question  to those physicists who decry _Jyotisha_ as nonsense: How many centuries  ago did modern science discover that the sun is in the Centre and there are nine  planets revolving around it? How many aeons ago did Indian scientists of old  discover this truth? Just because Galileo Galilee said that sun was the centre,  priests tortured him and Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in 1600 AD! The  problem with the scientists is what's available to the five senses and to the  instruments that bring knowledge to these senses, alone is true. The rest is  simply false. And every day a scientific theory is tumbling out. If science were  everything, why did they fool people all these years with their big bang theory?  Now they say that was a mistake!
_Kalpa_ is the science of performing sacrifices, composed in the form  of aphorisms. There are four _Kalpas_: _Shrauta Sutras_, _Grihya  Sutras_, _Dharma Sutras_ and _Sulba_ _Sutras_. These  _Sutras_ guided the sages in their lifestyles and activities.
 We can clearly see from this simple introduction itself how great the Indian  science of the _Vedas_ was! It was not a {censored}-and-bull story written by  fools. It was a wonderful system developed over millenniums! Just one challenge  to modern scientific people: Please show us one single case of grammar in any  other language of the world which has a _Sutra_ system like that of  _Panini_. Please show us a single dictionary in the worlds in verse form  like that of our _Amarakosha_. It's simply impossible to imagine how our  ancient scientist thought of such systems. India is great; Indian history is  great; Indian thoughts are great. Let's bow down in all humility to Indian  thought and learn from it. Let's study the _Vedas_. The _Vedas_ are  not terrific Sanskrit things. Anyone can read them using transaction. And there  are wonderful translations. If foreigners can study them and do such a lot of  work on them, why not we? Our ancient knowledge has come to us after much  difficulty and tremendous sacrifice. Millions have died in the hands of invaders  to save Hinduism. Let's not forget their sacrifice.
 You may ask: If Indian _Vedas_ are so great, if it is such a perfect  science, why did India suffer so much? Why is there no development at all here?  The reason is this: Exactly one thousands years ago, gold was sold on the  streets of India like we sell groundnuts! The world envied Indian progress.  Indian scientist taught the whole world! Nalanda, Taxila and other universities  were the oxford and Cambridge of the world! We lost everything because of Muslim  invaders and the subsequent occupations. Now, once again there is interest in  the Vedas and we shall rise once again there is interest in the Vedas and we  shall rise once again, Swamiji has declared time and again: 'India will be  raised, not with the power of the flesh, but with the power of the spirit; not  with the flag of destruction, but with the flag of peace and love�.'. ' I see in  my mind's eye the future perfect India rising out of this chaos and  strife�'.
 From Guru to disciple, from disciple to disciple-the river of Vedic knowledge  flowed in this way. And now we have every gadget under the Sun. But today we  don't follow the metres and _Chandas_ that the Rishis have followed. We  want to set film tunes to Mantras and sing them in such a way that the deergha  becomes a _hrasva_, a word becomes three words, a sentence becomes  meaningless and the pronunciation is simply preposterous. This we call  modernity! Modernity indeed! To preserve knowledge through all the vicissitudes  without changing even a single letter for thousands of years is not a joke.  Reporters can't report what they see the previous day correctly, not to speak of  thousands of years!
 Today, everyone is only too eager to criticize Brahmins. Who were the sages?  They were Brahmins, mostly, though people from all communities were sages.  Brahmins may have done some wrong, but to blame them for every wrong under the  Sun is silly. We must be grateful to them for all that they have done to  humanity. Simply condemning some race for no reason.
 Let's memorize this sentence from Vivekananda: 'There is no new religious  idea preached anywhere which is not found in the _Vedas_.'



ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 21, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

This is interesting to know. These are the excerpts of the bigger article found on Internet. The Title of this article is 'How We Got the Vedas'. Swami Sunirmalanada has written it.

I only want to know whether ekmusafir_ajnabi is Swami Sunirmalanada or he has only stolen this part to show his knowledge. Earlier he also wrote posts with the signature of the prominent Guru.
Habits may rest but never removed.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Aug 21, 2007)

Dear Friend s

As such the above post by Ek Musafir was good read although it was copy /pastr material fromm the larger topic written by Swami Vivekanand tp instill respect toward Vedic Tradition in Hindu masses



Jatinder Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 21, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all!
> 
> This is interesting to know. These are the excerpts of the bigger article found on Internet. The Title of this article is 'How We Got the Vedas'. Swami Sunirmalanada has written it.
> ...


 

You are right Balbir, the source of that extract is indeed from the article by "Swami Sunirmalanada"-'How We Got the Vedas'. Information was presented to drkhalsa as background information that I considered suitable for the time being and which is factually correct. It served its pupose.

There is a lot of information available on the net but it takes intelligence and wisdom to make the right selection. Considerable knowledge that is in SGGS is also present in some form in the Vedas. Does that mean our Gurus have stolen it from there. Information is available all around us. Bani says "Jo brehmande soi Pinde". Has this ever come to your mind how Guru Gobind Singh was able to recite SGGS word for word. 

If there is a limit to understanding then it is with your thinking. You have an immense desire to be an Internet Faqir and Baba. Please fulfill your desire because that will only bring you back to another life. Refine your thinking, read the interpretations of Bani by Prof Sahib Singh and Faridkot Wala Teeka if you can understand it. It is all there. At least do not mess-up others lives.



> As such the above post by Ek Musafir was good read although it was copy /pastr material fromm the larger topic written by Swami Vivekanand tp instill respect toward Vedic Tradition in Hindu masses


 

Khalsa ji, People get a seasonal itch about Spirituality and Knowledge. Questions are being asked for the sake of asking a question. Where the information comes from, you have no concern. It could have been another made up B---Sh-- by Balbir and you would have excepted it. There is not a single individual here in this forum who is seriousily intrested in Spirituality. It is a past time for all. You just want to have your say from what you have so far understood. It is like a frog who makes big leapes in his small well and feels he has entered an ocean. Little does he know but have only heard of the ocean.

Incidently to show the mirror of your keen intrest, the article is written by *Swami Sunirmalanada *and not Swami Vivekananda. Your quote "it was a good read". This was the limit to you eagerness for knowledge. I think the evidence is self explanatory. 

I have no enimity with anyone here. I am a musafir passing through who from time to time interferes to correct some individuals going off the track themselves and misleading others. Sorry to hurt ones Ego.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Aug 21, 2007)

> Incidently to show the mirror of your keen intrest, the article is written by *Swami Sunirmalanada *and not Swami Vivekananda. Your quote "it was a good read". This was the limit to you eagerness for knowledge. I think the evidence is self explanatory.
> 
> I have no enimity with anyone here. I am a musafir passing through who from time to time interferes to correct some individuals going off the track themselves and misleading others. Sorry to hurt ones Ego.
> 
> ekmusafir_ajnabi


 
Dear Musafir Ji 

I dont have habit to crtisize what others have to say . So are my responses are to most of the posts .
As far as your understanding about No Seekers on the forum .I respect it but dont agree neccesarily 
I have no shame in accepting that Iam novice in Spirtuality but I am fully aware of the fact that Iam seeker and need nobodies assurance to be aware of it 

About this article my friend this kind of information about astrology I have already read before and also many writings bySwami Vivekananda SO It wasnt soo exciting to me although definately it was good read ( I never imagined that little appreciation would bruise your ego - as I thought you were above such things . but now I doubt it )

Thanks for showing me mirror and bruising my Ego I think I need this and this is what I am on this forum for .I take it as blessing from my Lord and it help clean myself .

I have already ststed in Other post that I highly acknowledge and cherish your post and also posts of Balbir singh and few others like Aaad002 and vijaydeep Singh .May be I am not too expresiive about saying this But I know they are very important for my spirtual Journey 


One thing that I could not understand is That as I go about reading post by yourself and Balbir Singh I get impression that both of you are very spirually blessed .elevated souls But the thing that is surprising is Why Cant you see this Spirtuality in each other 

Its very obvious when you call somebodies writing ******** you are really unhappy with the man 

I am all ready for your further lessons in spirtuality and also Brusing that you might have in store for me .Keep them Coming 


Uth Fareeda Sutia  Duniya Veekhan ja 
Je koee Mil jae Bakshiya tan tun ve Bakshiyan jaee  ( I think This is what I look for  When I come to foru m !)


Really Thankful to you 

Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2007)

Drkhalsa ji and respected forum members, Starting with the comment of the good Drkhalsa ji,

*One thing that I could not understand is That as I go about reading post by yourself and Balbir Singh I get impression that both of you are very spirually blessed .elevated souls But the thing that is surprising is Why Cant you see this Spirtuality in each other

*Drkhalsa may be one of the few people so far who understands that a forum is not the place where we become sadhu. Should that happen by chance then it was God's will only and none of our effort. Spirituality? Mostly it is nurtured in the quiet of dyann and prayer and meditation. A forum is supposed to be a noisy place where information and ideas are exchanged, sometimes with great seriousness and sometimes in the spirit of entertainment. 

Drkhalsa is showing some of his gursikh tendencies when he encourages us to see God in All. Even in people who go off track, or get things wrong, or have another point of view. 

And when people allow the words of others to trigger some further thought, questions, study, conversation, and continued dialog they are making best use of the Internet. This is not a big ashram-- we are not looking for discipline -- everyone can handle a challenge, and maybe have a good laugh along the way.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Oct 10, 2007)

I have been doing some back ground research of who are the visitors to SPN?

I have collected the following Data for some of the Main Contributors from the Member Registration who has dared to be Candid. Selection of the following is without prejudice. I am making the assumption here that the following data as provided is correct.

There are many others who also take an active part in the forums but have decided to be anonymous. From their contributions so far it can be concluded that a vast majority fall in the same category as the ones below unless proven otherwise (by providing their Bio-data).

What is common among the following people?

Can the views of these people on Sikhism be considered valuable to the searching the true path?
Are these people themselves in the right state of Mind to offer advice on Sikhism?


Name                           Enrollment                    DOB                            POB

Amarpal Singh  11-06-2004                 16-05-1945                 India

KDS                            04-04-2005                 18-07-1980                 India

Randip                         25-05-2005                 19-09-1968                 U.K.

Giani Jarnail Singh         04-07-2004                 15-01-1949                 Malaysia

Clarkejoey                   03-10-2007                 06-11-1963                 Jamaica

Are these people improving their Karmas ? by showing the others the righteous path or
Making it Worse for Themselves by misleading others?
Do these people have a genuine interest in Sikhism or are they just wonderers ? 
Something to do in their spare time? Voice your opinion because no one else is 
listening to you?
Do you feel that those that manage Gurudwaras are any different from the ones 
moderating SPN.?

Comments will be appreciated especially from members who have knowledge of
Astrology. Others are suggested to take the above data to an Astrologer for
verification of the common state of Mind of these people.

Without prejudice and in the best interest of SPN and Sikhism.

Ekmusafir_Ajnabi


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2007)

BTW Ekmusafir ji

What is your birthday so I can complete an astrological reading for you too? It is not to be found on your member profile.

And what is your real name? My cosmic vibrations are saying to me that your screen name alludes to the idea of  "strange".  :whisling:

When I signed onto the forum I didn't know anything about forums and thought a person had to have an anonymous identity. My real name is Antonia D'Onofrio and my birthday is July 26, 1946.  What do you make of that? 

Did a quick reading for Amarpal ji, and didn't find anything all that strange. 

Someone on this forum is going to be very sad that I even got involved in this thread. I couldn't help myself. One of the 5 evil ones got a hold of me! :}8-:

Stay in Chardi Kala respected forum members all. I will live to regret I got involved in this thread. :8- So stay in Chardi Kala for me!


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## Astroboy (Oct 11, 2007)

*My real name is Antonia D'Onofrio and my birthday is July 26, 1946. What do you make of that?* **


Aad Ji, let me try telling you about your data through Numerology :

July - 7
Date 26 - 8
Year 1946 - 2

Present Age: 61

My calculations will be as follows: 36 minus (full DOB single Digit - 8) = 28

First Cycle ended on your 28th birthday + add 9 years to second cycle = 9+28 = 37 (End of second cycle) ; 37 + 9 = 46 End of third cycle.

Starting from 4th cycle, everything is added by 10 years:

56 - end of 5th cycle.

Present cycle is 6th Cycle - where you want to belong to a greater family - this started at 57 years of age. The greater family exceeds religious boundaries. But because you are in the family cycle - you're experienced enough to help people with emotional problems.

Now I come to your name - character analysis :

Primary Name : Antonia 
152691 = 24

24 + 24 = 48 
Present age minus two complete cycles = 61 - 48 = 13

You are in your 5th year of the 6 year mini cycle. By July 2008 a new cycle will start, which is a longer 9-year mini cycle.

Having a 269 - you will reach the top of your career and achieve doctorate.
269 is also linked to any doctorate degree and the medical services profession in general.

Other info strictly on one-to-one basis. No fees charged. LOL


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## clarkejoey (Oct 11, 2007)

Sat sri akal.

I'm sorry if i haven't taken this in the right spirit. But here goes:

As a former astrologer, i thought this might be an informative thread, but it's become funny, in a sad way. aad0002 ji, i too would be fascinated to see ekmusafir_ajnabi's birth chart, but i am trying to train myself out of the stargazing habit at the moment.

I didn't get the impression that ekmusafir_ajnabi was being attacked, but it appears s/he is feeling the need to defend. Undermining others doesn't seem to me the best way to go about it though.

ekmusafir_ajnabi, i ask the same questions about myself every day. Since i no longer lean on stars, cards, numbers, dice, etc etc, i am guided only my heart and mind, and the words of the Guru (with which i have only just become acquainted).

I read somewhere that the most untrustworthy statement is: "I am not lying," so all i will offer is this: watch me, listen, read if it interests you. I don't know where this journey (or this part of it) is going to go, because i have given up prophecy!

I hope and expect that if i stray, others will rein me in/poke me/point and laugh - whatever works. I am here to learn.

Maybe i should have stayed quiet.:shutup: Maybe it's me being defensive now, but one thing i didn't get, i hope ekmusafir_ajnabi can answer: what IS the common factor with the people you listed?


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## spnadmin (Oct 11, 2007)

My dear forum friend, Begun ji!

Thank you for taking all the time to work on this. And for laughing all the way.

i already do have my doctorate -- since 1982. But that is OK, because you are saying something also wonderful will happen soon.

Yes, i have joined a larger family - so huge it cannot be measured in time or space.

You have added delight to my day and probably made a lot of others smile,

Antonia


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## spnadmin (Oct 11, 2007)

Clarkejoey ji

* Maybe i should have stayed quiet.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Maybe it's me being defensive now, but one thing i didn't get, i hope ekmusafir_ajnabi can answer: what IS the common factor with the people you listed?*

Do not reprove yourself!

i too could find no common element. i looked using the Western chart (tropical). Then the the Vedic (sidereal) , but quickly because it takes a long time to do. I did look at stars, moon position, moon/sun, placing of Jupiter, north and south nodes.

Three people share similarities using Vedic astrology, and the other two are unique to themselves. I did not check all the planet positions for the Vedic analysis.

Without birth times (lagna)  it is hard to say anything all that complete in either approach.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Oct 11, 2007)

Dear aadoo2 ji and Clarkejoey ji,

Thank you for your response to my query. I can quite easily give you the answer but that can very easily be taken as an attack on ones personality. I shall therefore leave 2 hints for you to follow:

1. Look for debiliated planets in the Janam Kundli - althougth this is not the common factor but it will help to understand why some people fail to see/understand/realise what they are doing/saying propogating is wrong.

2. Please look at the Janam Kundli charts together with the planets in transit.

Aad002 ji very kindly provided her data. I am glad to say that you have just come out the influence of the plantery system I am hoping you will discover.

You are right aad ji, to know about someone in detail one would need to know the time of birth as well but we will not go in that direction. 

Respected aad002 ji, Who I am needs not become an issue. However I have mentioned something about myself in the posts in the past. People find it hard to digest. Like your two doves in your "Avtaar" two dark images with a dusk/dawn background in your Blogs, there too is a clue in mine. You are right in saying that ones "avtaar" says a lot about onself. I shall leave it to that. Think of me as nobody important. 


Kind Regards to the both of you.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## clarkejoey (Oct 11, 2007)

Sat nam, my mysterious friend.

With respect, i know enough about my (western) chart to keep me going awhile. I hope that when i do/say/propogate something "wrong" it will be pointed out to me.

You said: "Think of me as nobody important."

Okay, i will.
:}{}{}:


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## Archived_member2 (Oct 11, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee!

Thanks for your visit and post.
I had a feeling "kachche dhaage se chale aaye~nge sarkaar bandhe."

Quote "Look for debiliated planets in the Janam Kundli . . ."
May I request for a clarification. Why they call a planet debilitated in a particular zodiac sign that also highest at an exact degree?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 11, 2007)

Balbir ji

*May I request for a clarification. Why they call a planet debilitated in a particular zodiac sign that also highest at an exact degree?

*Good question. The answer veer ji is complicated, but not all that complicated. There are certain houses in one's chart where each of the planets is "exalted" or at maximum strength. Here they have their greatest influence. If any planet has moved away from its "exalted" position at the time of your birth, its influence is weakened, until it becomes very weak. 

For example, Jupiter is exalted in Cancer but debilitated in Capricorn, 180 degrees from its maximum strength in Cancer. Another example. In my birthchart Venus is debilitated because it was in Virgo when I was born, 180 degrees from its exalted position in Pisces. This means that the influence of Venus in my life has been stuck in Maya, the search for material pleasures. In Pisces Venus leads a person to a higher plane of consciousness.

This can be a problem in theory. But also in theory there can be other events in a birth  chart that soften the negative influences of a debilitated planet. These events are called yogas and they have various meanings.

A big deal is being made of this debilitated planet thing. Emotional blackmail. Most expert astrologers will say that a debilitated planet creates a challenge for an individual to develop and grow, once they know about the problem. The person is not permanently doomed or scarred. 

You cannot say anything about the yogas in anyone's chart if you don't know the time of birth, because the yogas are figured mathematically in relation to star, sun and planet positions in the sky at tthe time of birth. So who knows if a debilitated planet is a problem for Amarpal, Randip, clarkejoey, Gyanni ji, or kds1980? And why is it anyone's business?

The moon is always neutral. Which is more than we can say about the discussion now underway.

Anyway, the problem in connecting this to karma is this. Karma is not fixed and can be overcome by effort according to vedic astrology. So the notion that a person is "not fit" to comment on the forum or advise others because of a debilitated planet is irrelevant.

So this is all a lot of smoke. :{-And probably not good Sikhi. :}:


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## Archived_member2 (Oct 12, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Thanks for your efforts.

Quote "There are certain houses in one's chart where each of the planets is 'exalted' or at maximum strength."
I am not sure if a planet exalts in a certain house and 'exalted' means having maximum strength.

Quote "Here they have their greatest influence."
Are planets influencing differently or the beings receive their influence otherwise?

Quote "For example, Jupiter is exalted in Cancer but debilitated in Capricorn, 180 degrees from its maximum strength in Cancer."
My query is not where the astrologers exalt or debilitate the planets and what is their effect. My curiosity is to know why they have exalted or debilitated a planet in a particular zodiac sign and that also at a certain degree maximum.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Oct 12, 2007)

Respected Balbir ji

Again, your questions are really interesting and for the most part I don't know the answers. 

* I am not sure if a planet exalts in a certain house and 'exalted' means having maximum strength. T*hey don't exalt. They are at maximum strength and are therefore exalted. But the use of the word exalt  is dramatic language-- the ancients were fond of that kind of description. They understood the interconnectedness of natural phenomena and gave all of nature dynamic characteristics. Not our modern sense of living/nonliving. All was energy -- planets, humans, plants, animals, starts -- seen and unseen.

*Are planets influencing differently or the beings receive their influence otherwise?* The planets and relationships among planets are influencing people, and specific relationships (yogas) were and are thought to have a specific type of influence.
*
My query is not where the astrologers exalt or debilitate the planets and what is their effect. My curiosity is to know why they have exalted or debilitated a planet in a particular zodiac sign and that also at a certain degree maximum.* The astrologers didn't exalt the planets. A planet is exalted because of metaphysical connections between its inherent powers and qualities with particular constellations of stars at certain times (hours, days, years). A case of being in a location where energy is strongest. This is where my knowledge is weak -- the Vedas lay out the answers to your questions. The belief system is described in detail in the ancient writings. I have a reference but can't find it now when i am looking for it. 

in our modern age much of the ancient thinking is hard for me to accept. But this is a way of understanding the cosmos as a natural system and a system of consciousness. And  today, science is telling us that everything is energy and the western notions of living/nonliving, active/inactive, dynamic/inert are wrong. Forgive any errors on my part.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Oct 12, 2007)

Dear aad ji,

I had high hopes from you but am very dismayed by your response. The answer is that all the individuals I mentioned in my post are all going through Sadesati. You can find details for your self on the internet. Sadsati has a very heavy impact on ones state of mind. The individual is usually in a confused state of mind. You can check this for yourself as you too have just come out of Sadesati only a few months ago. Based on indian astrology your Venus is not debilitated either.

I was hoping this topic would be usefull for people to have a small realisatin of themselves in a scientific way but I see there being no point.

Another wanderer to this forum is Lionchild. In a state of confusion he is wandering from one faith to another and is restless in both. This is another trait of Sadesati.

The only person with a debilitated Saturn is Randip Singh. This is an indication of a sure path down to lower life. Previousily I have said this to him instinctively but now the proof of the pudding is there scientifically. I have no enimity with this guy but sympathy only. If this information has reached you then it is for a good reason. Act on it brother. Saturn is a planet that is a teacher that teaches painful lesson. In debilitated state it gets worst. 

Wise people learn from others mistakes. Others have to make them to wisenup and sometimes they still do not learn.

KDS ji Your health problems are due to Sadsati as well. I am hopefull that towards the end next 2-3 years they will get better. Good Luck. Sadesati can have varying impacts.

Balbir ji, You are not an exception. One who has experienced Guru Granth Sahib does not wander forum to forum asking explainations of Gurbani from others.

Enough said in this forum. 

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Oct 12, 2007)

Dear Ajnabi ji   I some how missed your recent dashing entry to the forum ! welcome and may be good Buy if you are leaving again .  Thanks for all the mysterious posts and Astrology analysis and from your posts it appears thjat Astrology can be of some help in people life but geting all the negative information does not help much on psychological front   you can also plz include positive things in the Kundali of above mentiopned people that will make some nice astrology prediction and may be helpful to them .  said all this I still feel that Strology can explain about happening in course of MIND /Body/Counciousness  complex but still there is something that remains untouches by Astrology no matter what so ever and I thin I am concentrating on that now a days with its Grace and that is basic principle in each o f us as witness to all this so I noting nothing much to worry as far as these folks are concerened about which you have given negative prediction .  Thanks   Jatinder Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Oct 12, 2007)

Jatinder ji,

There comes a time in a life when one has to use a mirror to show the bitter realities of life. Sikhism shows that to each and every one of us. The Salokas of Mehla 9 pulls the carpet from underneath our feet. But do we learn? We attend a funeral of a loved one and within hours everything goes back to life as normal. What do we learn? We could be the next in the queue even before we get home. Sikhism prepares you for that. Sikhism is not a joke. It is worst than the life of a Yogi. A yogi can run away from his responsibilities and hide in the Jungle and not see the bitter side of life. A Sikh has to honour his responsibility and yet get detached from everything. Jatinder ji if one cannot face the truth then one should not live a life under pretence. Look at the positive side and learn. If a negative comment can excite your follicles and make you think then you have made progress. Sikhism is a living death and not a holiday camp. People join this forum to mock Sikhism and our Gurus. They offer opinions the life styles of our respected Gurus. I have only given a small preview of the reality. You cannot even stomach this? 

“Ja tao prem khelan ka chao, sir dhar gali mori aao” .
“Pehlaan maran kabool , jivan di shadd aas, huh sabna ki renka tabhi aao hamarey pass”

This is the message of Sikhism. Renunciation – Renunciation – Renunciation. There is absolute no comparison of Sikhism with any known religion on the Earth. Fundamental may be the same but Sikhism takes the lead by far ……..infinity. 

Jatinder ji, the dead do not offer praises. This is the living death. Know where you stand. 

Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## spnadmin (Oct 12, 2007)

Some are devoid of intellect, or sense, or comprehension
And understand not a syllable.
Such folk, saith Nanak, as fill themselves with pride.
Without merit are asses pedigreed.

alternative translation in full shabd
ਮਃ  ੧  ॥
Mehlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਮਨਹੁ  ਜਿ  ਅੰਧੇ  ਕੂਪ  ਕਹਿਆ  ਬਿਰਦੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਣਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ  ॥
Manhu je anḏẖė kūp kahi*ā biraḏ na jāṇanĥī.
_Those mortals whose minds are like deep dark pits do not understand the purpose of life, even when it is explained to them._

ਇਕਨਾ  ਨਾਦ  ਨ  ਬੇਦ  ਨ  ਗੀਅ  ਰਸੁ  ਰਸ  ਕਸ  ਨ  ਜਾਣੰਤਿ  ॥
Man anḏẖai ūŉḏẖai kaval ḏisniĥ kẖarė karūp.
_Their minds are blind, and their heart-lotuses are upside-down; they look totally ugly._

ਇਕਿ  ਕਹਿ  ਜਾਣਹਿ  ਕਹਿਆ  ਬੁਝਹਿ  ਤੇ  ਨਰ  ਸੁਘੜ  ਸਰੂਪ  ॥
Ik kahi jāṇeh kahi*ā bujẖeh ṯė nar sugẖaṛ sarūp.
_Some know how to speak, and understand what they are told. They are wise and beautiful._

ਇਕਨਾ  ਨਾਦ  ਨ  ਬੇਦ  ਨ  ਗੀਅ  ਰਸੁ  ਰਸ  ਕਸ  ਨ  ਜਾਣੰਤਿ  ॥
_Iknā nāḏ na bėḏ na gī*a ras ras kas na jāṇanṯ._
Some do not understand about the Sound-current of the Naad or the Vedas, music, virtue or vice.

ਇਕਨਾ  ਸੁਧਿ  ਨ  ਬੁਧਿ  ਨ  ਅਕਲਿ  ਸਰ  ਅਖਰ  ਕਾ  ਭੇਉ  ਨ  ਲਹੰਤਿ  ॥
Iknā suḏẖ na buḏẖ na akal sar akẖar kā bẖė*o na lāhanṯ.
_Some are not blessed with understanding, intelligence, or sublime intellect; they do not grasp the mystery of God's Word._

ਨਾਨਕ  ਸੇ  ਨਰ  ਅਸਲਿ  ਖਰ  ਜਿ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਗੁਣ  ਗਰਬੁ  ਕਰੰਤਿ  ॥੨॥
Nānak sė nar asal kẖar je bin guṇ garab karanṯ. ||2||
_O Nanak, they are donkeys; they are very proud of themselves, but they have no virtues at all. ||2||
_
Sri Guru Granth Sahib: page 1246​


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## Sherab (Oct 12, 2007)

Ekumafir,

very nice post. 

many shukria,
Surinderjit


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Oct 13, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> Some are devoid of intellect, or sense, or comprehension​
> 
> And understand not a syllable.
> Such folk, saith Nanak, as fill themselves with pride.
> ...





Thank you for your kind contribution aad ji. Your shabad compliments my earlier posts. Only if these people had your wisdom.

P.S. Please do not put up shabads and translations that Firstly you do not understand for youself and Secondly if you persist, make sure that the Shabad is correctly translated and is complete. (There are a few lines missing and translations do not follow)



> So this is all a lot of smoke. :{-And probably not good Sikhi. :}:



Ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Archived_member2 (Oct 13, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee!

Please say something about the curiosity ignoring guna avguna of students.
Why they call a planet debilitated or exalted in a particular zodiac sign that also highest at an exact degree?

Many know truth because they have read it in a book. A true astrologer knows it well.

Planets are also in Hukam of God. The Gurus realized it, not because they read it somewhere.


Balbir Singh


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## Randip Singh (Oct 19, 2007)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Are these people improving their Karmas ? by showing the others the righteous path or
> Making it Worse for Themselves by misleading others?
> Do these people have a genuine interest in Sikhism or are they just wonderers ?
> 
> ...



I guess people like yourself also reviled Jesus, Moses and Mohammed as misleading others too? Guru Nanak was mocked by Pandist and Banres and Kurukshetra. He wore the strange gards that were a cross between a Muslim and a Hindu.....he did not conform......Guru Gobind Singh ji too would not conform.....he gave the name "Singh" reserved for Royalty to low castes.......he too was reviled by the haughty and masands..........but we all know what happened to the massands.....:wink:

When I read comments like this from learned wise people like you Musafir ji ....I know I am most definitely on the path of truth......because truth always makes the narrow minded unfortable.:ice:


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## bade_ustaad (Dec 27, 2007)

Dear Friends,

A sad event in History of Pakistan, *Former Prime Minister* *Benazire Bhutto Assassinated?*
It is really very sad that her father, two brothers and herself faced the unnatural death.

May her soul rest in peace.

The following is an extract from a Forum Dedicated to astrology.

Washington, Oct 16 (ANI): Former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto has said she suspects that some retired military officers have aligned to Islamic extremists whocould be plotting her assassination on her return to the country. 
The Guardian reported that a Taliban commander, Baitullah Masood, 
has threatened to deploy suicide bombers against her, but Benazir said that the real threat came from within the military establishment. 
"I'm not worried about Baitullah Masood, I'm worried about the threat within the government," she said, adding, "People like Baitullah Masood are just pawns. It is those forces behind him that have presided over the rise of extremism and militancy in my country." She singled out as her most potent enemy retired military officers "who have fought the jihad". "They have a lot of supporters and sympathisers within the echelons of administration and intelligence, " Christian Science Monitor quoted her, as saying in the report. Reacting to Benazir's allegation, a government minister called it a "ridiculous claim." Meanwhile, elaborate security arrangements have been made for her returns to Pakistan on Thursday. Thousands of security forces and bulletproof cars will be used to shield her. (ANI)

*Horary No: 76/249 (Prashan Jyotish)*
*Question: Will assassination take place?*
*Query dated: 16/10/2007*
*Time: 1.20.43PM*
*Place: L.G.HospitalAhmedab ad 23 N oo 72 E 36*

8th House is Infamy, accidental death,executions, Misery, 
12th House: crimes, Assassinations ,Anxieties, Blackmail, Cheating, Clandestiness Associates,Exiled persons,Misery, Misfortune, Moksha.
If 8 or 12th sublord signfies 8,12 one can Assassinated in the DBA of 8,12.
In this horary:
8th Sublord is Mer. in the star of Rah and sub of Own.
Me(3, 3-12), in the star of Ra(7),Rah is in the sign of Sat Sa(1, 7-
8) , in the sub of Me(3, 3-12).
Mer signfies 12 and 8 and 7th maraka clearly.
12th Sublord is Mar. in th star of Rah and sub of mer.
Ma(11, 5-10), in the star of Ra(7), Rah is in the sign of Sat Sa(1, 
7-8), in the sub of Me(3, 3-12).
Bhukti lord also signfies 11)Badhaka), 7(Marka) 8 and 12.
I think during this period shw will be Assassinated by Clandestiness

Is Astrology at fault or the Bogus Astrologer who is the Culprit?. You decide.


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## bade_ustaad (Dec 28, 2007)

California Wild Fires Astrological Analysis 

Watch for yourself!

YouTube - California Wild Fires Astrological Analysis


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## Amrjit (Dec 30, 2007)

*vAihgUr<*​


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## Astroboy (Dec 30, 2007)

bade_ustaad said:


> California Wild Fires Astrological Analysis
> 
> Watch for yourself!
> 
> YouTube - California Wild Fires Astrological Analysis


 

It's an amazing video. But I am skeptic about it because anyone can put together information from historical events and present it in a convincing sequence.


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## Sikh80 (Dec 30, 2007)

IF I wasnt an AMRITDHAREE and a Firm beleiver in GURBANi and GURMATT.. I could make a killing in astrology....its that easy ( and I KNOW FOR A FACT that I KNOW NOTHING about any PAST or FUTURE of anybody even myself !!!)

Forgive me

jarnail Singh[/quote]

If that be the case why be amritdhari and let 10th guru sahib be ...................


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## Amrjit (Dec 31, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> bade-ustaad
> 
> Some of us are honored that you visit then and again and share your expertise. I found your analysis of Benazir Bhutto's life and death truly fascinating.


Aad Ji, 

I too found the astrological prediction incredibly fascinating !

Amrjit


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## bade_ustaad (Dec 31, 2007)

Dear Friends

There has always been a conflict between the sceptic and a believer. I recently read the following on another website and would like to share it with your good selves. This is what I remembered:



> Jesus, Peter and others were travelling via a boat. Jesus stood up half way on the journey and began to walk on water. As he had gone a few yards, Peter asked , My Lord can I walk on water too? Can I join you? Yes, replied Jesus, you too can walk on water and yes you can join me. Peter stepped on the water surface and as he took a few steps, he found he was sinking. He cried out to Jesus, please help me my Lord! I am sinking. Jesus extended his arm and said you faithless cynic why did you loose faith in me?



This is our problem. We doubt everything. What we do not understand, we dismiss it. The analysis to Mrs Bhuttos’ assassination was done be an astrologer in a Jyotish Forum back in October. My introduction of the analysis to this forum was in answer to the numerous discussions by the Cynics and Sceptics is that there is more to ones understanding. The world is not limited to one own imagination and understanding.

Gurus and Bhagats have time and again stressed on the point of keeping company of a Saint. Even if it is for a very small time span. This is only to ensure that the new believer does not become a cynic, so that there remains a flow of *inspiration*.

In the video you can see that there is correlation between the Planets and the events on this earth. Several past incidents have been highlighted. By studying past events you can *predic*t the future events. We can only know what nature gives us access to. If one was to analyse the number of scientific discoveries then one will also find a correlation between them. Naamjap ji, you have every right to be a sceptic. Just as you do Naam Jap to remove the veil of illusion (scepticism about God is within you) similarly by studying Astrology you can remove the scepticism of Astrology. It too is Spiritual Science.

Thank you very much for your kind responses.

Have a Happy, Prosperous and Scepticism free New Year.


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## Amrjit (Dec 31, 2007)

Bade_Ustaad Ji

I found the astrological analysis absolutely fascinating, if not *eerie* in its truthful, predictive accuracy !

Particularly since *Mohatarma* _(Honourable)_ *Benazir Bhutto* was in a *bullet-proof and bomb-proof car *( as shown on PTV - Global ). Yet she made the fatal error of standing up through the roof-hatch of the car, thereby compromising her safety by exposing her head/shoulders-torso to the suicide bomber, who took immediate advantage ... _(as seen on TV)_

She is said to have believed that a true follower of Islam _would never kill a woman_ ...

And so she was assasinated despite the heavy and intensive security - absolutely in keeping with the astrological prediction.

The position of Rahu, Ketu, etc in the other example _(California Wild Fires Astrological Analysis)_ you gave makes sense to me and is therefore acceptably plausible !

I think, Astrology is believable when its exponent *has true knowledge and understanding* of the subject. _*Quacks and charlatans*_ tend to denigrate it in the eyes of the vast/expansive majority of common people ?

You are right, it too is a Science, that needs _proper_ learning and comprehension.

Wishing you and all the rest of the like-minded Sangat a very Happy and Prosperous New Year 2008 !

Amrjit


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## Astroboy (Feb 2, 2008)

If you think Astrology really works, think again.

YouTube - Carl Sagan on Astrology
YouTube - James {censored} on Astrology
YouTube - Derren Brown Astrology


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