# What Is Naam?



## Sherdil (Apr 17, 2014)

What is Naam? I have seen many people talk about Naam Simran. They  advocate repeating the name "Waheguru, Waheguru" again and again. They  claim it is a way to connect to the divine and experience the creator.  However, what makes this form of chanting different from the other forms  practiced by various peoples around the world? Does the word itself  have any special power, or is it the act of chanting that puts oneself  in a meditative trance? Anything done repetitively puts the brain on  autopilot. For example, whirling dervishes enter a trance-like state  when they spin around and around repeatedly. Aside from bringing peace  and contentment, is there any gyaan (wisdom) attained from this?

Is this even the Naam our Gurus talked about? When we say "Sat Naam",  what does that mean? I believe it to mean "The name is Truth". So then  isn't the real Naam Simran a repitition of truth? Truthful speech and  truthful actions, done repetitively, create a truthful person.

“Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become  actions. Watch your actions; they become habit. Watch your habits; they  become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.”
   -Lao Tzu


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 17, 2014)

This is a great question and I've thought about this a lot myself.  After having done the repetitive chanting as prescribed by a certain number of Sikhs, I have come to the conclusion that by itself, chanting "Waheguru" does not really get me any closer to the Divine, nor does it improve me as a person in any discernible way.  I can equally chant "Computer" or any other word, till I put myself into a self-induced trance.  But it won't help me spiritually in any way.  In that respect, mindless chanting is the domain of many other religious practices, but it has no place in Sikhi.

There is another dimension to Simran, and the conclusion I have reached is that it has more to do with conscious intention every moment of our lives.  This means to always keep the Creator Lord in our thoughts, even while performing our daily routines in life.  This really helped me understand:


ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੨ ॥ Soraṯẖ mėhlā 5 gẖar 2. Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
ਮਾਤ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਦੇ ਤਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੇ ॥ Māṯ garabẖ mėh āpan simran ḏe ṯah ṯum rākẖanhāre. 
*In our mother's womb, You blessed us with Your meditative remembrance, and You preserved us there.*
ਪਾਵਕ ਸਾਗਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਹਿ ਤਾਰਹੁ ਤਾਰਨਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ Pāvak sāgar athāh lahar mėh ṯārahu ṯāranhāre. ||1|| 
Through the countless waves of the ocean of fire, please, carry us across and save us, O Savior Lord! ||1||


How can a fetus perform Simran?  Surely it's not hanging upside down and chanting "Waheguru".  The fetus doesn't even have vocal chords to begin with.  So surely there is something else going on.

So to me, this means to center my conscious attention on the Creator at all times, no matter what I'm doing (working, eating, standing in line at the grocery store, etc.)  This has actually helped me in a number of ways, and one of most unexpected was that I have started to comprehend Gurbani more clearly.  I can understand more of what I read, I also find that my attention doesn't wander anymore when I'm doing paaht.  Also I tend to think of everything and everyone through the lens of spirituality, rather than more secular notions.  It definitely changes how you think.

In the end, we are all individuals and we will all connect with our Creator in our own, personal, unique way.  So who's to say that chanting is the wrong approach, if it works for someone?  For me personally, I tried it and it was not really useful.  But it may have huge benefits for the next person.  Who I am to contradict their experience?

Last point is that it's way better to say "Waheguru" (even without mindfulness), rather than a curse word.  So, there is merit regardless.

AoG


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## aristotle (Apr 18, 2014)

I feel the following threads can provide quite an insight into this matter:

* Concept of Naam : http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38473-concept-of-naam.html

* Shabad, Naam, Amrit, Hukam, Guru - Are They Synonyms? : http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42026-shabad-naam-amrit-hukam-guru-they.html

* 'Naam' - My Understanding : http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/8672-naam-my-understanding.html


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## Harry Haller (Apr 18, 2014)

In my opinion, Naam is a state of mind where connection to the supreme is good, where connection to Creation is good, and thus, connection to Creator is good, it is not about chanting, praying, rituals, how big your khachera is, etc, it is about living truthfully, thinking truthfully and acting truthfully, it is about being true, having a clean heart, getting pleasure from giving without thought of receipt, about breaking the animal programming that makes you want to show your ego, your pride, act on base desires, lose yourself in drugs and alcohol, it is about breaking that programming and being free from all desire, and seeing yourself as a servant to Creation, this is not achievable by mumbling with your fingers in your ears on top of a mountain, it takes hard work, discipline, time, and even then, it has to be sustained, there is no finish line for us, it is a constant race, the question is where are you racing towards, freedom, or slavery. I consider Naam to be freedom, freedom from what car you drive, or the jewels you wear, the clothes that make you look good, the house you bought to make everyone else jealous, the wife or husband you married because they are well connected, the dog you bought because it is the latest fashionable item, freedom..., in my opinion


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Apr 21, 2014)

I should keep my peace on this, I really should. I won't, of course. I do a lot of Naam Jap, to the point that my parrot started saying "Waheguru, Waheguru," at odd times. I think there is much more to Naam than my chanting and my silly parrot responding in her own parrot way.

During the BP oil spill in the Caribbean, there was some wild speculation that it could trigger a chain reaction, first killing all life in the Caribbean, then in all the oceans and, of course, eventually destroying all life on land, as well. I am enough of a scientist to know that this couldn't really happen, but still, it was something to think about.

One lovely afternoon about that time, I was sitting in our lawn swing taking it all in, when I began to experience sitting in the swing with everything around me dead. The grass, the trees, the squirrels, the insects, it all withered and died. All the things we regard as non-living, the houses, cars, streets were there, just there, just being, not doing anything. All the things that should be alive were dead. Grey tree trunks with no leaves, turned soil in the garden with only black remnants of plants there, a few dried-out slugs on the pavement.  Only the experiencer was alive. 

I became acutely aware of an activity surrounding and permeating and - the best word I can think of - alive. It was not a thing, it was an action, a creativity. The whole experience was extraordinary; this description doesn't begin to do it justice. It left me completely drained, shaken to the core and, at the same time, feeling untouched by the death all around me. I do not claim that this is Naam, but I do believe there is a connection to Naam. 

Is it possible that we are approaching Naam from a backwards position. What if Naam is not a thing, not a noun, but rather an action, a verb ?

Just askin'


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Apr 21, 2014)

I seem to think about things a bit differently from others. 

I like things to be clear and simple and look very hard for simply understood explanations. This approach works well for me for most Sikh topics, but Naam, well, Naam is different.

I think Naam is one of those things we really can't approach head-on, straightforwardly...It is more something that is sensed, glimpsed out of the corner of the eye, vanishing when looked at directly. It is mysterious and why not? Surely we have room for the mysterious in this very strange universe in which we live and Naam is maybe not really a part of this universe anyway.


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## Sherdil (Apr 21, 2014)

Sometimes when deciphering gurbani, I like to look at things like a  physician. If a patient comes to your office complaining of a cough, it  could be due to a number of things. A cough by itself doesn't tell you  anything. You have to look at the cough in connection to other symptoms  when making your diagnosis.

The word "Naam" by itself doesn't tell us anything. It has to be looked  at in connection to the words around it. We need to consider the  context.

If we go back to the phrase "Sat Naam", I think we can safely assume  that Naam just means "name". To assume that it has an intangible  definition would caste doubt on "Sat" (objective truth). By definition  this cannot occur.

The main underlying theme of gurbani is the differentiation of  subjective truth from objective truth. Subjective truth is true because  people feel it is true. Objective truth is true no matter what anyone  says. "Aad sach. Jugaad sach. Hai bi sach. Nanak, hosi bi sach" is  describing objective truth. It was true in the past, it is  true now, and it will be true in the future. It  is Akaal (timeless). This is why we say "Sat Sri Akaal".

The very first question asked in gurbani is "Kiv sachiyaara hoiyeh, kiv  kooreh tooteh pal?" In essence, this is asking how does one discern  objective truth. The answer is "Hukam razaai chalna. Nanak  likhiya naal". Walk with the Hukam. Nanak shows the way.

I think it was brilliant of Guru Nanak to ascribe a concept (Sat) to  call the divine, because it is a universal idea, agreed on by people  from all walks of life. It is a unifying concept, unlike "Waheguru" for  Sikhs, "Allah" for Muslims, and "Ram" for Hindus. Gurbani uses these  different names for the divine interchangeably to illustrate that they  are nothing more than subjective labels.


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## Rupinder.Singh (Apr 22, 2014)

WJKK WJKF

On topic of Naam, I have been trying to find out from Gurbani what actually Naam is. I have tried to discuss what i think naam is with many but very few of them could agree with me, or in other words i might have failed to explain it properly.I will try it here. Again I am open to discussions, criticism, corrections.
----------------------

What is Naam:

Please consider following three points:

1. Gurbani emphasizes a lot on "Karam" i.e. our actions or act of doing something, be it thinking, reflecting, responding, etc, etc.

2. Another thing Gurbani emphasizes a lot is "Truth". We cant be truthfull until and unless we are true to our own self. We can tell lies to the world, and they may even believe it, but deep inside us we know, something is not true. Telling lies to our inner self is an impossible task.

ਅਗਹੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਪਿਛਹੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥

We can ignore the truth but it will still be there, even after years of ignorance.

There is one more fact of life I came across,
3. "If we define something wrongly and mark the definition unchangable, Chances are we may not ever find the real thing coz it is possible that the real thing might have totally different attributes"

So I keep my options open, while moving on.

There are few posts here which suggest that "Naam" has not been defined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am not saying that they are wrong, but i tend to not agree with that statement.

And then there are other posts which state that "Waheguru" is the only naam quoting following lines of Respected Bhai Gurdass ji (vaar 13, pauri 2).

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ।

But I always fail to grasp why people quoting above lines do not find any value in the below lines of same respected Bhai Gurdass ji (Vaar 1, Pauri 1) 

ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਕੋ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਜਿਸ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ।

I would prefer to put my point forward as follows:

The very first lines of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are as follows:

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

And in my opinion Key to Naam lies in above starting line.

Now for a while focus your attention to following couplet.
ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ

According to Prof Sahib Singh, and many other translaters, and my own observation of Gurbani Syntax, most of the words ending with "Sihari" (ਸਤਿ) signify an action.

If we follow that rule, ਸਤਿ is not a noun or adjective, it is actualy a verb. which essentially means "Doing Truth full Actions".

ਨਾਮੁ is the Naam we all are discussing here and are trying to find.

So in my understanding

ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ is actually the definition of Naam, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about it through out.

So I personally translate it as follows:

"Doing Truth full Actions is THE NAAM"

This definition of Naamu, includes "Karam" (point 1 above) and Truth (point 2. above).

ਅਮਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਸਬਦੋ ਕਰਿ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਆਬ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਹਿ ਪਾਣੀ ॥

This naamu can only be recited by actually adhering to the principle of truth, by living it practically in every thing we do in our life. And that person will become of a distinguised status of ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ, one who truly practices righteous and truthfull Actions (Karam), ie, one who is ਕਰਤਾ (ie.Doer), state of oneness with almighty.


ਜਬ ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੂ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੂਹੀ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥


If we adhere to this Naam, We become ਨਿਰਭਉ (ie. Fearless) because the very root of fear is in something that is not true.

If we adhere to This Naam, we become ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ (without enimity) because if we decide to be true, it becomes irelevant if person in front of you is a friend or a foe, we will always take side of truth.


If we adhere to this Naam, our thought process becomes Akaal(ਅਕਾਲ) , we were true when it happened, we are true today and we will be true in the times to come no matter what.

If we adhere to this Naam, we automatically become ਅਜੂਨੀ ( Free of incarnations) ie. we would niether incarnate as a friend to cover up a friend's wrongdoing,or incarnate as a Foe to selectively highlight an enemy's wrong doing. Rather we will stick to truth and remain ਅਜੂਨੀ.

This Naam can be recited only if we realise it within our innerselves. No third person can make us recite this naam, until and unless we are ourselves willing to do so within our self (ਸੈਭੰ).

This state can only be realised/achieved through ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ie. through(ie. ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ) spiritual wisdom(ie. ਗੁਰ).



Our Gurus have consistently used following lines:

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

or its shorter version

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

at start of most of the different compilations, in a way to highlight and remind us our goal of life and how it can be achieved.

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Thats all for now. Will tunein later.

Bhul Chuk Maaf


Rupinder Singh
Keep learning


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## chazSingh (Apr 24, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> What is Naam? I have seen many people talk about Naam Simran. They advocate repeating the name "Waheguru, Waheguru" again and again. They claim it is a way to connect to the divine and experience the creator. However, what makes this form of chanting different from the other forms practiced by various peoples around the world? Does the word itself have any special power, or is it the act of chanting that puts oneself in a meditative trance? Anything done repetitively puts the brain on autopilot. For example, whirling dervishes enter a trance-like state when they spin around and around repeatedly. Aside from bringing peace and contentment, is there any gyaan (wisdom) attained from this?
> 
> Is this even the Naam our Gurus talked about? When we say "Sat Naam", what does that mean? I believe it to mean "The name is Truth". So then isn't the real Naam Simran a repitition of truth? Truthful speech and truthful actions, done repetitively, create a truthful person.
> 
> ...


 

The moment i say 'Waheguru' verbally or within my mind...it has one effect on me...it is the one word that moves my focus/attention/consciousness to my destination...wonderful, wondrous guru that takes my consciousness from dark to light. 

*for me this seems to help as i have no way of describing the God i seek or the truth my soul yearns for.*

if you know of another word like 'Satnaam', then please use that..whatever takes your focus to your perceived destination.

if you want to become god consious, then other words generate different thoughts and feelings...if i repeat the word 'sex' over and over....my mind will not be thinking of God 

when you meditate, the word you chose has to have 2 effects...

1. it is a tool to try to stop your mind from wondering everywhere else...
   so by repeating, you are trying to tame your mind from not thinking of money, sex, desires, anger, etc etc.
2. we don't know what God is, so we need the word to help us think, contemplate what god is, and help our attention stay focussed to this destination.

How many words can you think of that help cover both aspects...

in my experience...once your mind starts to relax and you regain more and more control of it from wandering (1), and because the word you have chosen has helped you contemplate the wonderous existance of the all pervasive being (2), it will help put you in a place\state of mind to pick up the grace that is already flowing through all of us....ego slowly starts to back off...god consciousness flows forth.

and then if blessed by almighty waheguru, we may come to feel the prescence of naam and become one with it, and see it flowing though everyone and everything...nurturing one and all. It's already there...we just allowed ourselves to be fooled by our ego into thinking it isn't 

God Bless


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## chazSingh (Apr 24, 2014)

Rupinder.Singh said:


> WJKK WJKF
> 
> 
> So I personally translate it as follows:
> ...


 
Satnaam Ji,

Whilst i agree with majority of what you said can truthful actions be enough?

at what point do truthful action move from a conscious decision by the mind to do something truthful or a good deed...for something in retrun i.e. to please god, to reep a better future from our seeds (good deeds), even just for a thankyou...and then to feel better because we did something truthful (ego) or to think of ourselves as truthful

to being something that flows through you naturally, being the only option available...no thought about it...its all you know, its all you are.

what happens within us that changes us from one to the other? is it grace?

in my humble opinion truthfull actions are a step in the right direction...A Sato aspect of creation...which helps us create a positive environment for us physically and mentally, but at some point we surely must seek to go beyond these aspects into the source of all this...infused in naam?

just my current feelings ji...nothing more.


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 24, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> The moment i say 'Waheguru' verbally or within my mind...it has one effect on me...it is the one word that moves my focus/attention/consciousness to my destination...wonderful, wondrous guru that takes my consciousness from dark to light.
> 
> *for me this seems to help as i have no way of describing the God i seek or the truth my soul yearns for.*
> 
> ...



It sort of sounds like you're describing transcendental meditation here.

AoG


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> It sort of sounds like you're describing transcendental meditation here.
> 
> AoG


 
to be honest i don;t like to name anything...don;t really know what transcendental meditation is...

all i know is i reached a point in my life a few years ago where i started getting up at amrit vela and pretty much poured my heart out to god...

didnt know any techniques of how i should connect with god..or attempt to connect...i just went with the flow...

just the silence of the night was very peaceful...bliss 
with all the silence, i noticed my mind wondering in all sorts of directions...pulling my attention here and there...i realised the source of my troubles was my own mind..

so in the silence of the night i pondered on questions i would like to ask god, i contemplated his existance...slowly my mind was being tamed..

and the rest, well i realised all *his grace* and nothing is of my doing...
our body is truely a temple through which everything can be revealed.

god bless ji


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> The moment i say 'Waheguru' verbally or within my mind...it has one effect on me...it is the one word that moves my focus/attention/consciousness to my destination...wonderful, wondrous guru that takes my consciousness from dark to light.
> 
> *for me this seems to help as i have no way of describing the God i seek or the truth my soul yearns for.*
> 
> ...



Wisdom comes from understanding. It doesn't come from blocking negative thoughts. Understanding comes from contemplation. Just saying "Waheguru" isn't going to unlock the meaning of those 1430 pages in gurbani. 

If you understand the object of your desire, then your mind will not go there. Money is just paper, sex is a part of procreation, anger is a self-defense mechanism, etc. None of these things are inherently bad. They all have their place. Making them the center of your life is what causes trouble. If you understand that they are transitory, then they lose their importance. 

I think there is a difference between suppressing emotions and dealing with them. The former causes more harm to your mental health in the long run, as those suppressed emotions may manifest themselves in other ways.


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> all i know is i reached a point in my life a few years ago where i started getting up at amrit vela and pretty much poured my heart out to god...



What happened to reading Japji sahib at Amrit vela?


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> Satnaam Ji,
> 
> Whilst i agree with majority of what you said can truthful actions be enough?
> 
> ...



I don't think good deeds should be confused with truthful action. The definition of a good deed is highly subjective. For many Hindus, a good deed entails doing murti pooja. For many centuries, a good deed was considered fulfilling the dharma of your caste. 

Truthful action results from truthful thought. Going back to "Kiv sachiaara hoiyeh" I think we need to get an idea of what Hukam is, in order to walk a truthful path. We can discuss it here, or maybe we can start a new thread dedicated to Hukam, as this will take us away from the subject of "Naam". Although, I believe these to be intertwined.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 25, 2014)

If naam is the main course, Hukam is the pudding and truth is the starter! lol


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Wisdom comes from understanding. It doesn't come from blocking negative thoughts. Understanding comes from contemplation. Just saying "Waheguru" isn't going to unlock the meaning of those 1430 pages in gurbani.



i would say wisdom and understanding come from actual 'experience'.
i don't think i can block thoughts, but i know now i can observe the negative thoughts and gently let them pass through without them grabbing my attention and turning into actions...well sometimes 
i agree, just saying waheguru like a parrot will not take you anywhere...
many people may start off like that get nowhere and just give up, the ones that have patience and a deep longing and thirst that pretty much hurrts *may use that word or other gurbani to provide focus for that yearning*...in the end i feel they all combine to produce something far greater than what people call parroting...far far greater



> If you understand the object of your desire, then your mind will not go there. Money is just paper, sex is a part of procreation, anger is a self-defense mechanism, etc. None of these things are inherently bad. They all have their place. Making them the center of your life is what causes trouble. If you understand that they are transitory, then they lose their importance.


that's fine...but gurbani says the world is driven by the 5 thieves...so if you're managing to overcome them then thats great which is something we all must try and do, 
but the 'knower of all hearts' seems to think most people even if their ego thinks otherwise are somewhat under their influence far beyond money being just paper, or sex being just for procreation , so much so, that Guru Ji mentions this over and over...surely Guru JI is on to something.

anger is and always is a negative...as an experience to observe the opposite of calm, focussed and awareness though difficulty,anger is a good experience...one must experience the dark to appreciate the light. Anger in any martial art is to be overcome, it provides nothing but a loss of control to something created in the mind...god consciousness is surely beyond anger.






> I think there is a difference between suppressing emotions and dealing with them. The former causes more harm to your mental health in the long run, as those suppressed emotions may manifest themselves in other ways.


yup, agree


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> What happened to reading Japji sahib at Amrit vela?



it's pretty amazing


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

harry haller said:


> If naam is the main course, Hukam is the pudding and truth is the starter! lol


:icecreammunda:


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

harry haller said:


> If naam is the main course, Hukam is the pudding and truth is the starter! lol



love it! 

even though i like talking about simran, meditation etc etc...
if the unraveling of truth was exactly the same for everyone, gosh it would be boring...

and thats why i dont like giving names to types of meditation or methods of simran...because eventually we realise no method is correct or false, but the one things that cannot be denied is ones love and yearning to experience the truth and that is fact!  and that is what lifts us up.


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> that's fine...but gurbani says the world is driven by the 5 thieves...so if you're managing to overcome them then thats great which is something we all must try and do,
> but the 'knower of all hearts' seems to think most people even if their ego thinks otherwise are somewhat under their influence far beyond money being just paper, or sex being just for procreation , so much so, that Guru Ji mentions this over and over...surely Guru JI is on to something.



You can't rid the five thieves completely. You can only control them. They all serve their purpose. They should work for you. You shouldn't be controlled by them. Focusing on Waheguru Simran may take your mind off of unwanted thoughts, but that is just avoidance. You are avoiding confrontation with what plagues you. It is no different than a hermit distancing himself from things than entice him. Guru ji clearly says this is not the way. 



chazSingh said:


> anger is and always is a negative...as an experience to observe the opposite of calm, focussed and awareness though difficulty,anger is a good experience...one must experience the dark to appreciate the light. Anger in any martial art is to be overcome, it provides nothing but a loss of control to something created in the mind...god consciousness is surely beyond anger.



Even anger has its place. People become angry when they feel threatened or helpless. Anger releases adrenaline that helps you physically overcome any perceived threat. Sikhs have a long military history. I'm sure anger served them well on the battlefield. It's only when anger becomes out of control, that you become further from the divine. Someone who is always angry at the world will not find enlightenment.


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> love it!
> 
> even though i like talking about simran, meditation etc etc...
> if the unraveling of truth was exactly the same for everyone, gosh it would be boring...
> ...



Agreed. There are many different methods of devotion. That is why there are so many different religions. The point is to determine what method Sikhs believe in. I don't think Waheguru simran, or any simran besides truth, was advocated by our gurus to achieve enlightenment.


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> You can't rid the five thieves completely. You can only control them. They all serve their purpose. They should work for you. You shouldn't be controlled by them. Focusing on Waheguru Simran may take your mind off of unwanted thoughts, but that is just avoidance. You are avoiding confrontation with what plagues you. It is no different than a hermit distancing himself from things than entice him. Guru ji clearly says this is not the way.



i agree, you can;t get rid, gurbani says to reverse the control they have on you to *having control of them.*
the benefit of their experience is surely to gain new appreciation of the opposites, truth, trust, faith, compassion etc etc.

waheguru simran, or any shabad simran allows me to regain that control...it has nothing to do with avoidance, although maybe at the early stages some avoidance has to occur to fight off any habitual tendencies.
some effort has to occur, and if your heart longs and yearns then the rest is done via grace....one day you are plagued by the desire to drink alcohol, watch porn, desire for more and more money and within a matter of moments you wake up and this day feels different...the sight of alcohol all of a sudden has no pull on you..

what has happened in that moment..or moments...gurparsaad...a blessing from beyond the mind...a blessing from beyond any human effort or method or anything...

i felt this when i overcame my habit of drinking, of desire to get drunk and party all night... or when i overcame my desire for eating meat all the time... the feeling of sudden liberation from the mental desire to do these habitual things...wooosh, gone with the passing of the wind, but the 5 thieves are still there...lirking, and waiting for a moments weakness...one has to remain aware of them...the true battlefield





> Even anger has its place. People become angry when they feel threatened or helpless. Anger releases adrenaline that helps you physically overcome any perceived threat. Sikhs have a long military history. I'm sure anger served them well on the battlefield. It's only when anger becomes out of control, that you become further from the divine. Someone who is always angry at the world will not find enlightenment



there is only one type of anger, and that is out of control...everything you descibe above can be attributed to resillience, bravery, fearlessness, awareness, focus...to get out of a dangerous situation, anger servers no purpose....the experience of anger is surely a manifested emotion created by the mind...it cannot be a true emotion that comes from the soul

in many of my life situations i am glad that i felt anger, it allowed me to see its destructiveness, it doesn;t seem right to me anymore, now i appreciate the exact opposite...the exact opposite is where i want to dwell


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 25, 2014)

This is not directed at anyone in particular...just some thoughts that came up after reading this thread (and others like it).

It really irks me when people attempt to apply the Judeo-Christian ethic or Hindu philosophies to Sikhism, and then get up on a stage and preach to others that "this is what Sikhi is".  They have totally failed to understand Guru's wisdom or teaching.  In fact, they haven't even attempted to learn.  All they've done is take their old belief systems and apply it to the exotic new religion they have found.  This is pure ignorance.  Blindness.  It demonstrates a lack of understanding and intellectual laziness.  If you want to be a Sikh, you should learn what Guru Nanak Sahib is teaching.  Japji Sahib contains the essence of Sikh philosophy and belief.

There is a different and unique world-view, philosophy and belief system in Sikhi than in other religions.  We would all be well-served to learn it well before we start espousing "how-to's" and beliefs and get into debates over what is wrong or what is right.

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want.  But if you want to follow Guru Nanak Sahib, then your responsibility is to learn what Guru Sahib is teaching, and that is accomplished by diligent study of Gurbani.

AoG


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Agreed. There are many different methods of devotion. That is why there are so many different religions. The point is to determine what method Sikhs believe in. I don't think Waheguru simran, or any simran besides truth, was advocated by our gurus to achieve enlightenment.



true simran occurs when the grace of remembering starts to dawn on man, remembering what was once forgotton (god consciousness) and feeling the ego subside and the light shine forth to manifest a true reality and not one dominated by the ego.

it's hard to remember anything in life when one is so pre-occupied with false desires, anger, greed, lust and attachment... 

at some point one must withdraw for some moments and pull away from these negative tendencies to gather *breath of life*, *a moments silence* and maybe the *voice of god will be heard*, 

*maybe just maybe i might start to remember who i truely am, what i truely am, my true purpose, and henceforth god consciousness*

maybe just maybe, my fear of death will diminish, no more need to get angry with anyone...for i hold no fear...no more need to seek revenge...to whom am i seeking revenge, as all is God...my arms and legs may be cut off...my life may be taken out...but so what...i am soul...one with God, what can happen to me? nothing...


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## chazSingh (Apr 25, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> This is not directed at anyone in particular...just some thoughts that came up after reading this thread (and others like it).
> 
> It really irks me when people attempt to apply the Judeo-Christian ethic or Hindu philosophies to Sikhism, and then get up on a stage and preach to others that "this is what Sikhi is".  They have totally failed to understand Guru's wisdom or teaching.  In fact, they haven't even attempted to learn.  All they've done is take their old belief systems and apply it to the exotic new religion they have found.  This is pure ignorance.  Blindness.  It demonstrates a lack of understanding and intellectual laziness.  If you want to be a Sikh, you should learn what Guru Nanak Sahib is teaching.  Japji Sahib contains the essence of Sikh philosophy and belief.
> 
> ...



so that i understand...


which Judeo-Christian ethic or Hindu philosophies do you mean?

I've never researched or studied the above, so cannot put it into context with what is on this thread

Thank you ji


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 25, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> so that i understand...
> 
> 
> which Judeo-Christian ethic or Hindu philosophies do you mean?
> ...



Start with the concept of God.  How many can say that they actually comprehend the paradigm of the Creator in Sikhi, as opposed to the Judeo-Christian concept of God.  They are, in fact, very different theologies.

Take this thread for example.  We are discussing Naam in this thread.  None of us can even grasp at the concept, and yet it is something that is very central to Sikh thought and philosophy of living.  And here we are all struggling to even define it.  This, to me, means that we have not understood the basics.

Why do people say things like "Read this shabad eleven times and your pain will disappear"?  Or why do some people avoid wearing black clothes for fear that it will attract negative energy?  These are Hindu thought-processes (I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not for a Sikh to indulge in).  The very way we approach our spiritual practice is overloaded with stuff like this.  We take what is familiar to us, whether it is a belief or ideology or way of doing things, and try to paste it onto Sikhi.  Thus, we are bringing our filth with us, and not really seeing clearly.  Sikhi by it's very inclusive and flexible nature is very susceptible to this kind of treatment.  

If we just put all the junk aside and tried to learn what Guru Sahib is teaching us, with an open mind, we would have some enlightenment.

This goes for what we do in our personal lives too.  Yes it's true that everyone relates in their own way, but there is also a way that Guru Sahib has prescribed.  Who are we to contradict it or find spurious meanings that don't exist just to satisfy our own personal tastes?


AoG


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## Ishna (Apr 25, 2014)

*The coversation should be careful not to dwell too much on meditation, meditation techniques, or "simran" when it [the thread[ is essentially supposed to be about Naam. Perhaps then it won't go down the same rabbit hole as so many other threads.*




			
				ActsOfGod said:
			
		

> Take this thread for example. We are discussing Naam in this thread. None of us can even grasp at the concept, and yet it is something that is very central to Sikh thought and philosophy of living. And here we are all struggling to even define it. This, to me, means that we have not understood the basics.


 
This is a good re-focuser. Thank you.


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## Sherdil (Apr 25, 2014)

What is Guru ji telling us about Naam in this Shabadh? GGS, panaa 9:

ਆਸਾ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਆਖਾ  ਜੀਵਾ  ਵਿਸਰੈ  ਮਰਿ  ਜਾਉ  ॥
आखा जीवा विसरै मरि जाउ ॥
Ākẖā jīvā visrai mar jā▫o.
Chanting it, I live; forgetting it, I die.

ਆਖਣਿ  ਅਉਖਾ  ਸਾਚਾ  ਨਾਉ  ॥
आखणि अउखा साचा नाउ ॥
Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.
It is so difficult to chant the True Name.

ਸਾਚੇ  ਨਾਮ  ਕੀ  ਲਾਗੈ  ਭੂਖ  ॥
साचे नाम की लागै भूख ॥
Sācẖe nām kī lāgai bẖūkẖ.
If someone feels hunger for the True Name,

ਉਤੁ  ਭੂਖੈ  ਖਾਇ  ਚਲੀਅਹਿ  ਦੂਖ  ॥੧॥
उतु भूखै खाइ चलीअहि दूख ॥१॥
Uṯ bẖūkẖai kẖā▫e cẖalī▫ahi ḏūkẖ. ||1||
that hunger shall consume his pain. ||1||

ਸੋ  ਕਿਉ  ਵਿਸਰੈ  ਮੇਰੀ  ਮਾਇ  ॥
सो किउ विसरै मेरी माइ ॥
So ki▫o visrai merī mā▫e.
How can I forget Him, O my mother?

ਸਾਚਾ  ਸਾਹਿਬੁ  ਸਾਚੈ  ਨਾਇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
साचा साहिबु साचै नाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖai nā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
True is the Master, True is His Name. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਚੇ  ਨਾਮ  ਕੀ  ਤਿਲੁ  ਵਡਿਆਈ  ॥
साचे नाम की तिलु वडिआई ॥
Sācẖe nām kī ṯil vadi▫ā▫ī.
Trying to describe even an iota of the Greatness of the True Name,

ਆਖਿ  ਥਕੇ  ਕੀਮਤਿ  ਨਹੀ  ਪਾਈ  ॥
आखि थके कीमति नही पाई ॥
Ākẖ thake kīmaṯ nahī pā▫ī.
people have grown weary, but they have not been able to evaluate it.

ਜੇ  ਸਭਿ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਕੈ  ਆਖਣ  ਪਾਹਿ  ॥
जे सभि मिलि कै आखण पाहि ॥
Je sabẖ mil kai ākẖaṇ pāhi.
Even if everyone were to gather together and speak of Him,

ਵਡਾ  ਨ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਘਾਟਿ  ਨ  ਜਾਇ  ॥੨॥
वडा न होवै घाटि न जाइ ॥२॥
vadā na hovai gẖāt na jā▫e. ||2||
He would not become any greater or any lesser. ||2||

ਨਾ  ਓਹੁ  ਮਰੈ  ਨ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਸੋਗੁ  ॥
ना ओहु मरै न होवै सोगु ॥
Nā oh marai na hovai sog.
That Lord does not die; there is no reason to mourn.

ਦੇਦਾ  ਰਹੈ  ਨ  ਚੂਕੈ  ਭੋਗੁ  ॥
देदा रहै न चूकै भोगु ॥
Ḏeḏā rahai na cẖūkai bẖog.
He continues to give, and His Provisions never run short.

ਗੁਣੁ  ਏਹੋ  ਹੋਰੁ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਕੋਇ  ॥
गुणु एहो होरु नाही कोइ ॥
Guṇ eho hor nāhī ko▫e.
This Virtue is His alone; there is no other like Him.

ਨਾ  ਕੋ  ਹੋਆ  ਨਾ  ਕੋ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੩॥
ना को होआ ना को होइ ॥३॥
Nā ko ho▫ā nā ko ho▫e. ||3||
There never has been, and there never will be. ||3||

ਜੇਵਡੁ  ਆਪਿ  ਤੇਵਡ  ਤੇਰੀ  ਦਾਤਿ  ॥
जेवडु आपि तेवड तेरी दाति ॥
Jevad āp ṯevad ṯerī ḏāṯ.
As Great as You Yourself are, O Lord, so Great are Your Gifts.

ਜਿਨਿ  ਦਿਨੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਕੈ  ਕੀਤੀ  ਰਾਤਿ  ॥
जिनि दिनु करि कै कीती राति ॥
Jin ḏin kar kai kīṯī rāṯ.
The One who created the day also created the night.

ਖਸਮੁ  ਵਿਸਾਰਹਿ  ਤੇ  ਕਮਜਾਤਿ  ॥
खसमु विसारहि ते कमजाति ॥
Kẖasam visārėh ṯe kamjāṯ.
Those who forget their Lord and Master are vile and despicable.

ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਵੈ  ਬਾਝੁ  ਸਨਾਤਿ  ॥੪॥੩॥
नानक नावै बाझु सनाति ॥४॥३॥
Nānak nāvai bājẖ sanāṯ. ||4||3||
O Nanak, without the Name, they are wretched outcasts. ||4||3||


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## angrisha (Apr 26, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> Why do people say things like "Read this shabad eleven times and your pain will disappear"?  Or why do some people avoid wearing black clothes for fear that it will attract negative energy?  These are Hindu thought-processes (I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not for a Sikh to indulge in).  The very way we approach our spiritual practice is overloaded with stuff like this.  We take what is familiar to us, whether it is a belief or ideology or way of doing things, and try to paste it onto Sikhi.  Thus, we are bringing our filth with us, and not really seeing clearly.  Sikhi by it's very inclusive and flexible nature is very susceptible to this kind of treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> AoG




I think there are plenty of reasons why this type of thinking has lingered in sikhism, same reason its around every other relgion...peope like an easy out, sometimes doing the actual reading and comprhending is hard and if someone of 'authority' is telling you to do something people will listen. 

I recently had this discussion with one of my friends, who was having bad dreams. She went to the gurdwara, and one of the Gani's there gave her a book (she doesnt know which book) with a karpan on top and she put it on her bookshelf. She claims it helped, and im inclined to believe her that in her mind it did.... She never opened the book, nor does she have any idea whats inside... Comfort plays  a big role, ppl do what they're comfortable with.


For me, defining Naam is something to do this day that has constantly changed for me. To me simran doesnt mean simply reciting, (Jap is more like that in my head), simran to me means making the essence of 'God' apart of every moment of your life. Simran is to be in constant alignment with Sat Guru,that essence is a very part of your being... thats what true simran to me would mean... that idea that it is in  everything that you do/think etc. 

I think to find that essence of Sat Nam, is essentialy that hunger to get to its core. Once, i think people get that feeling in their heart, they will begin their path to understand what that means to them.


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## Sherdil (Apr 26, 2014)

angrisha said:


> I think to find that essence of Sat Nam, is essentialy that hunger to get to its core. Once, i think people get that feeling in their heart, they will begin their path to understand what that means to them.



I agree that everyone has their own way of connecting to gurbani, but isn't it our duty to come to a definitive consensus on what Guru ji is saying? If we left it up to individual interpretation, then even a word like Naam drastically changes the meaning our faith from one person to the next.


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## Sherdil (Apr 26, 2014)

Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.
It is so difficult to chant the True Name.
ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥
साचे नाम की लागै भूख ॥
Sācẖe nām kī lāgai bẖūkẖ.
If someone feels hunger for the True Name,
ਉਤੁ ਭੂਖੈ ਖਾਇ ਚਲੀਅਹਿ ਦੂਖ ॥੧॥
उतु भूखै खाइ चलीअहि दूख ॥१॥
Uṯ bẖūkẖai kẖā▫e cẖalī▫ahi ḏūkẖ. ||1||
that hunger shall consume his pain. ||1||

Let's just take the above piece and break it down:

Guru ji says it is difficult to chant the True Name. Could this be because the name is not a a word, but rather a concept? Moreover, why does Guru ji repeatedly say "True Name" or "His Name is Truth"? Could he be hinting at objective truth (Sat) stated in the mool mantar? 

Perhaps it is the hunger for truth that consumes us. All religions and philosophies attempt to discern the truth about human existence. Why are we here, what is our purpose, what happens after death? These questions have plagued mankind from the beginning of rational thought. I think this is what Guru ji is highlighting here.


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## chazSingh (Apr 27, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> Start with the concept of God.  How many can say that they actually comprehend the paradigm of the Creator in Sikhi, as opposed to the Judeo-Christian concept of God.  They are, in fact, very different theologies.
> 
> Take this thread for example.  We are discussing Naam in this thread.  None of us can even grasp at the concept, and yet it is something that is very central to Sikh thought and philosophy of living.  And here we are all struggling to even define it.  This, to me, means that we have not understood the basics.
> 
> ...



if you cant define naam then it has nothing to do with anyone understanding the basics lol ... it suggests naam is beyond all intellect and understanding...and can only be experienced through gurparsaad...and after being experienced you probably wont be able to explsin it to any one afterwards... 

All the rest that you.ve written is the typical response to hearing the words naam simran or meditation...the usual parroting responses or the idea that everyone who japs gurbani or meditates on gurbani is on some ',I.ll read gurbani 12 times and I.ll be blessed'.

I think its disrespectful that you disregard the fact that people actually have a heart and soul and are not robots  and that humans can speak from their heart... gurbani came from the source...we are part of the source. And gurbani is our sword to battle the ego...and when the soul yearns the truth....these words, these vibrations when spoken from deep in the heart can unite us back with our source.

remember... there is a big difference in saying 'I love you' like a parrot to your partner...it means nothing and has no power to transform...

whereas if you speak from your soul and say 'i love you' to your partner...it is powerful...

I hope one day ji you can tell this difference. God bless.... waheguru


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 28, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.
> It is so difficult to chant the True Name.
> ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥
> साचे नाम की लागै भूख ॥
> ...




I wonder if that is an accurate translation, though?

Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't Akhan more like "to advise", or to tell, give advice to, instruct?

AoG


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 28, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> if you cant define naam then it has nothing to do with anyone understanding the basics lol ... it suggests naam is beyond all intellect and understanding...and can only be experienced through gurparsaad...and after being experienced you probably wont be able to explsin it to any one afterwards...
> 
> All the rest that you.ve written is the typical response to hearing the words naam simran or meditation...the usual parroting responses or the idea that everyone who japs gurbani or meditates on gurbani is on some ',I.ll read gurbani 12 times and I.ll be blessed'.
> 
> ...




You are reacting to things I did not say.

AoG


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## Sherdil (Apr 28, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> I wonder if that is an accurate translation, though?
> 
> Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.
> 
> ...



You are right. The translation is embellished. Perhaps the translator was trying to convey Guru ji's intent, as some meaning is lost when translating from one language to another. 

Akhan = To say/tell

"Mai ounoo aakhiya" = I told him/her

"Mai ki aakhiya?" = What did I say? 

Aakhiya is often shortened to khiya. "Mai ki khiya?"


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## ActsOfGod (Apr 28, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> You are right. The translation is embellished. Perhaps the translator was trying to convey Guru ji's intent, as some meaning is lost when translating from one language to another.
> 
> Akhan = To say/tell
> 
> ...




This is why I'm so wary of translations.

Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.

So to me this seems like "It is advised (or I advise or say to you), that it is difficult [to obtain?] the True Name"

Or something similar.  Not sure how so many people interpret that to mean "chant".  There's nothing about chanting in there that I can see.

AoG


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## Sherdil (Apr 28, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> This is why I'm so wary of translations.
> 
> Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o.
> 
> ...



Akhan means "to recommend" when it is an intransitive verb (when there is no subject). 

There is a subject here (sacha nao). So the meaning of akhan becomes to say/tell. 

So the accurate translation should be: 

"It is difficult to say the true name" or "It is difficult to say what the true name is". 

Either way, it hints at the same thing: The name is beyond mere utterance. Perhaps that's why they chose to use "chant". It conveys the same meaning if you think about it. Although, it's probably not the best word to use.


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## chazSingh (Apr 29, 2014)

What does the Sangat think of the following shabad?

ਆਸਾ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਨਿਵਿ  ਨਿਵਿ  ਪਾਇ  ਲਗਉ  ਗੁਰ  ਅਪੁਨੇ  ਆਤਮ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਨਿਹਾਰਿਆ  ॥
निवि निवि पाइ लगउ गुर अपुने आतम रामु निहारिआ ॥
Niv niv pā▫e laga▫o gur apune āṯam rām nihāri▫ā.
Bowing down, again and again, I fall at the Feet of my Guru; through Him, I have seen the Lord, the Divine Self, within.

ਕਰਤ  ਬੀਚਾਰੁ  ਹਿਰਦੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਵਿਆ  ਹਿਰਦੈ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਬੀਚਾਰਿਆ  ॥੧॥
करत बीचारु हिरदै हरि रविआ हिरदै देखि बीचारिआ ॥१॥
Karaṯ bīcẖār hirḏai har ravi▫ā hirḏai ḏekẖ bīcẖāri▫ā. ||1||
Through contemplation and meditation, the Lord dwells within the heart; see this, and understand. ||1||

ਬੋਲਹੁ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ  ॥
बोलहु रामु करे निसतारा ॥
Bolhu rām kare nisṯārā.
So speak the Lord's Name, which shall emancipate you.

ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦਿ  ਰਤਨੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਲਾਭੈ  ਮਿਟੈ  ਅਗਿਆਨੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਉਜੀਆਰਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
गुर परसादि रतनु हरि लाभै मिटै अगिआनु होइ उजीआरा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gur parsāḏ raṯan har lābẖai mitai agi▫ān ho▫e ujī▫ārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By Guru's Grace, the jewel of the Lord is found; ignorance is dispelled, and the Divine Light shines forth. ||1||Pause||

ਰਵਨੀ  ਰਵੈ  ਬੰਧਨ  ਨਹੀ  ਤੂਟਹਿ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਭਰਮੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ॥
रवनी रवै बंधन नही तूटहि विचि हउमै भरमु न जाई ॥
Ravnī ravai banḏẖan nahī ṯūtėh vicẖ ha▫umai bẖaram na jā▫ī.
By merely saying it with the tongue, one's bonds are not broken, and egotism and doubt do not depart from within.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਤ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਤੂਟੈ  ਤਾ  ਕੋ  ਲੇਖੈ  ਪਾਈ  ॥੨॥
सतिगुरु मिलै त हउमै तूटै ता को लेखै पाई ॥२॥
Saṯgur milai ṯa ha▫umai ṯūtai ṯā ko lekẖai pā▫ī. ||2||
But when one meets the True Guru, egotism departs, and then, one realizes his destiny. ||2||

ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਭਗਤਿ  ਪ੍ਰਿਅ  ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ  ਸੁਖ  ਸਾਗਰੁ  ਉਰ  ਧਾਰੇ  ॥
हरि हरि नामु भगति प्रिअ प्रीतमु सुख सागरु उर धारे ॥
Har har nām bẖagaṯ pari▫a parīṯam sukẖ sāgar ur ḏẖāre.
The Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is sweet and dear to His devotees; it is the ocean of peace - enshrine it within the heart.

ਭਗਤਿ  ਵਛਲੁ  ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ  ਦਾਤਾ  ਮਤਿ  ਗੁਰਮਤਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ  ॥੩॥
भगति वछलु जगजीवनु दाता मति गुरमति हरि निसतारे ॥३॥
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal jagjīvan ḏāṯā maṯ gurmaṯ har nisṯāre. ||3||
The Lover of His devotees,  the Life of the World, the Lord bestows the Guru's Teachings upon the  intellect, and one is emancipated. ||3||

ਮਨ  ਸਿਉ  ਜੂਝਿ  ਮਰੈ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਪਾਏ  ਮਨਸਾ  ਮਨਹਿ  ਸਮਾਏ  ॥
मन सिउ जूझि मरै प्रभु पाए मनसा मनहि समाए ॥
Man si▫o jūjẖ marai parabẖ pā▫e mansā manėh samā▫e.
One who dies fighting against his own stubborn mind finds God, and the desires of the mind are quieted.

ਨਾਨਕ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਕਰੇ  ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ  ਸਹਜ  ਭਾਇ  ਲਿਵ  ਲਾਏ  ॥੪॥੧੬॥
नानक क्रिपा करे जगजीवनु सहज भाइ लिव लाए ॥४॥१६॥
Nānak kirpā kare jagjīvan sahj bẖā▫e liv lā▫e. ||4||16||
O Nanak, if the Life of the World bestows His Mercy, one is intuitively attuned to the Love of the Lord. ||4||16||

Some of the light i get from this shabad is below, would be nice to hear other Sangat members views on this shabad also. God Bless

1. speak the lords name\naam
2. just verbally speaking the lords name is pointless (parroting)
3. instead to the devotee the name\naam means so much to him/her, enshrine it in your heart instead...envelope it in your love and thirst, we do not yet understand or comprehend our creator, but we have His Bani 
4. the lord dwells within us, within our hearts, understand this through contemplation. Love comes from God, love is God and love comes from the heart...
5. the one who fights his mind will find God...desire and ego are removed through this
6. Bani is Guru and Guru is Bani, and through the grace of this bani, the light within shall shine and we will be engulfed in it...literally

*in short, fight your mind, speak his naam by enshrining it in your heart where god dwells, this {censored}tail will surely remove all fog and allow grace to dawn upon us* 

just my thoughts


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## chazSingh (Apr 29, 2014)

For me, Feeling his presence within my body, within my being is Naam...nothing that can be described in words or spoken of...a ery personal experience...but one we can all have, making each and every one of us special...equal.

my body is the sponge, and just like the sponge soaks up the water, naam is soaked within me...but through my life and through my ego i have let myself forget this and his presence is no longer felt...in fact all my life i have denied his presence...i walk alone through Ego, not knowing who i really am and what lies within me

How could i have let this happen...
Bani came from Him, it is now my only hope back to feeling his presence, feeling his naam within me.


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## Ishna (Apr 29, 2014)

Time is not available for me to read the shabad you posted right now Chazji, but would just like to add to your great description of the experience of Naam in the self, that we can also recognise Naam as permeating absolutely everything, leading to a profound sense of interconnectedness (and the foundation for a supremely ethical life as epitomized in the ideal Sikh way of life).

It's interesting that you describe your body as a sponge soaking up the water of Naam.  Do you think that sentiment was being expressed when Guru Sahib writes of being dyed in the colour of love?


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yes guru sahib expressed that sentiment throughout by stating, ''ਸਉਦੇ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਉਚਰਹਿ ਉਠਦੇ ਭੀ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥   (313-2) - as it is not practical to chant wah wah while asleep. It was their state of mind, their love, their experiece.


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## Ishna (Apr 30, 2014)

Sahni ji

Please, please provide full shabad and ang number.

I'm not sure if your quote is from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or not... please clarify. Thank you


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## chazSingh (Apr 30, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Time is not available for me to read the shabad you posted right now Chazji, but would just like to add to your great description of the experience of Naam in the self, that we can also recognise Naam as permeating absolutely everything, leading to a profound sense of interconnectedness (and the foundation for a supremely ethical life as epitomized in the ideal Sikh way of life)



your addition sounds perfect  Guru Ji says rather than wondering around looking on the outside for him, what better place to experience Him within our ownself first...once we experience his presence within ourself, all fear will be lost, and Guru Ji says we will know and see God in everyone and everything else also...in fact we will 'LITERALLY' see him everywhere...

then we don't need to 'TRY' or make 'EFFORT' to live in truth, because we now know the truth and therefore there will only be one *intuitive* option in all circumstances and that is of love, compassion, forgiveness, sharing, earning truthfully, looking after each other, no jelousy, no slander, standing up for the truth no matter what the potential outcome...

all of this with the constant presence of Waheguru Ji within us 



> It's interesting that you describe your body as a sponge soaking up the water of Naam.  Do you think that sentiment was being expressed when Guru Sahib writes of being dyed in the colour of love?



i would say yes to this


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## japjisahib04 (Apr 30, 2014)

I had quoted the page No.313-2. Anyway let me list the whole shabad. 
                        ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੪ ॥
ਕਿਆ ਸਵਣਾ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਗਣਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥ ਕਰਮੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਲਗੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਈ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ ਸਉਦੇ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਉਚਰਹਿ ਉਠਦੇ ਭੀ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਜਿ ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਸੰਮਾਲੇਨਿ ॥੧॥ 
After experiencing the divine within, now state of sleep and awake is one and the same. Unlike the literal understanding, guru sahib is not telling those who are tuned with sach are 'ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ' as with cross reference we find that gurbani dictate is only God himself is puran -   ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸਫਲੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਪਿ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦਿਸਈ ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਪਿ ॥ SGGS.53.3 as 'ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥ SGGS.61.7.
sahni mohinder


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## Ishna (Apr 30, 2014)

So you had, my mistake.

Thanks for posting the whole thing. :grinningkaur:


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## Abneet (Apr 30, 2014)

To me Naam Simran is a way to connect to with the Divine and practice Truth. Of course in Bani you will see it mentioned many times and in many different concepts. To understand the basic concept of Naam I can't even explain. You can go on and on about Naam and what you really think is the concept of Naam.

Naam in the words of Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh Ji:
When you begin to feel the love of the Divine within your mind and body, know that grace has been bestowed. This is naam. 

Dyed in the love of the Divine you will see the Divine pervading everywhere. This is naam.

When your attention turns from the seen world, towards the Divine world, that is also naam. 

Naam is not mere repetition.

Naam is repetition, recitation, remembrance and sensation. 

Naam is life.

Naam is grace. 

Naam is the divine light meeting the light within you. 

Naam is love, devotion, ecstasy and rapture.

Naam is when in your remembrance of the Divine you feel a heavenly sensation on your tongue.

Naam is when all the cells in your body get immersed in the love of the Divine and the flow of blood through your veins resounds with the sensation of the Divine.

Every pore, every cell rejoices. At that moment, you are truly awake. You are truly alive. 
To know naam; to understand naam, you must have faith. Faith, that the Divine is all-pervading. Faith, that in the seen and unseen world, it is the Formless One that permeates. Faith, that invisible to the naked eye, the Pure Light of the Divine is in each and every being. Faith, that the Divine is eternal strength. Faith, that the power and ways of the Divine cannot be known by mortals, for the Divine is immortal.

I believe Sikhs should be practicing Naam Simran. I am entitled to my own opinion. Not just remembering his Name 24/7 but chanting too brings sublime experiences to our lives. There are spiritual stages of Naam too. It isn't a pointless thing. My Dad's best friend who was a sant ji reached the last stage of having "Vaheguru run through his veins in his body." My Dad witnessed it too and heard it before he left this world. To bad I was young before he left. So the experiences of Naam are actually real. Many don't want to believe that the whole concept of Chanting His Name is useless but brings us closer to Him. 

Quote of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee in his book "Gurmat Naam Abhyaas Kamaayee."

"Gurmat Naam Abhyaas Kamaayee."

"Those who are themselves devoid of Naam (bemukh from Naam) and who cause others to become bemukh from Naam, such pseudo philosophers are often heard saying that to recite (japp) Naam for personal need or selfish need is a pakhand (hypocrisy or pretension) and such recitation of Naam for selfish need is useless. Their such saying is totally false."


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## japjisahib04 (May 1, 2014)

Though  gurmat way is, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ - by exploring the treasure within and have called rest of all other exercises as, ' ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ ॥੩੨॥ and guru sahib totally dismissed parroting and called it a futile exercise by stating, 'ਹਰਹਟ ਭੀ ਤੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਭਲੀ ਬਾਣਿ ॥ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਦਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹੈ ਕਿਆ ਉਚੀ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥ p.1420 but at several places literal interpretation reveals guru sahib is endorsing repetition like, ' ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਪਿ ਮੀਤ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਦਰਬਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥. Does it mean gurbani is contradictory? No! gurbani is constant and strung in one thread, thus we need to understand where guru sahib is condemning parroting, it is not possible at other place he is endorsing at the same. It could be while saying yes, he meant no or simply quoting passing perception of people, as end of the sabd he says, 'ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ॥ it is 'guru ka sabd which helps you to cross bhavjal and not parroting. For that we must reflect on the central idea of sabd. E.g., it is not possible that guru sahib didn’t know how to do bhagti, but quotes a passing common perception on page 612, ‘since I didn’t know how to do bhagti, I started parroting guru, guru, Guru or ram ram and as such people started addressing me devotee of ram (with the name of ramdas) - 'ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 'and at other place guru sahib says, 'ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ purpose behind parroting was to transform manh/heart but despite parroting, manh is constantly practicing deception, thus it is a futile exercise. Even at other place guru sahib says, 'Guru gur kar manh mor guru bina mai nahi hor - guru sahib knew manh cannot be silenced thus is advising the manh to keep on chattering the positive thinking - the divine virtues in order to explore the treasure within instead of letting the manh to conspire.
sahni mohinder


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## chazSingh (May 1, 2014)

Abneet said:


> To me Naam Simran is a way to connect to with the Divine and practice Truth. Of course in Bani you will see it mentioned many times and in many different concepts. To understand the basic concept of Naam I can't even explain. You can go on and on about Naam and what you really think is the concept of Naam.
> 
> Naam in the words of Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh Ji:
> When you begin to feel the love of the Divine within your mind and body, know that grace has been bestowed. This is naam.
> ...



Hi Abneet,

i couldn't have put in any better than you have. Naam is everything we can imagine and an infinite amount more! 

biggest hurdle for many is to actually believe that God is literally within us all, and within everything...The Ego won't allow us to believe this...God is there for us to enjoy for us to realise our true potential

your post has been so refreshing to read.

God bless, waheguru


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## chazSingh (May 1, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Though  gurmat way is, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ - by exploring the treasure within and have called rest of all other exercises as, ' ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ ॥੩੨॥ and guru sahib totally dismissed parroting and called it a futile exercise by stating, 'ਹਰਹਟ ਭੀ ਤੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਭਲੀ ਬਾਣਿ ॥ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਦਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹੈ ਕਿਆ ਉਚੀ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥ p.1420 but at several places literal interpretation reveals guru sahib is endorsing repetition like, ' ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਪਿ ਮੀਤ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਦਰਬਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥. Does it mean gurbani is contradictory? No! gurbani is constant and strung in one thread, thus we need to understand where guru sahib is condemning parroting, it is not possible at other place he is endorsing at the same. It could be while saying yes, he meant no or simply quoting passing perception of people, as end of the sabd he says, 'ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ॥ it is 'guru ka sabd which helps you to cross bhavjal and not parroting. For that we must reflect on the central idea of sabd. E.g., it is not possible that guru sahib didn’t know how to do bhagti, but quotes a passing common perception on page 612, ‘since I didn’t know how to do bhagti, I started parroting guru, guru, Guru or ram ram and as such people started addressing me devotee of ram (with the name of ramdas) - 'ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 'and at other place guru sahib says, 'ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ purpose behind parroting was to transform manh/heart but despite parroting, manh is constantly practicing deception, thus it is a futile exercise. Even at other place guru sahib says, 'Guru gur kar manh mor guru bina mai nahi hor - guru sahib knew manh cannot be silenced thus is advising the manh to keep on chattering the positive thinking - the divine virtues in order to explore the treasure within instead of letting the manh to conspire.
> sahni mohinder



yes it is so simple,

*parroting is mindless talk*....e.g. saying "i love you, i love you" over and over to your husband\wife...but inside you thinking of other things and not actually felling any love for the other person....this is mindless parroting...

*mindFULL* talk is when the words are a* manifestation* of the *true* *feelings inside you*....feeling immense True unconditional love for your partner and saying "i love you" to them....*this is not parroting*...so i if keep saying "i love you, i love you" over and over, it is a powerful expression that can hit deep in the other persons heart also.

when a person utters words, the world will judge them saying they are just parroting, but what they may not see is where these words are manifesting from....and that could be from deep in that persons heart where waheguru is so ever present.

and if a person utters with love and focuses on the words, then it may help like you said from preventing the mind from conspiring, while our attention/consciousness can 'explore the treasure within' like you said


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2014)

> parroting is mindless talk....e.g. saying "i love you, i love you" over and over to your husband\wife...but inside you thinking of other things and not actually felling any love for the other person....this is mindless parroting...
> 
> mindFULL talk is when the words are a manifestation of the true feelings inside you....feeling immense True unconditional love for your partner and saying "i love you" to them....this is not parroting...so i if keep saying "i love you, i love you" over and over, it is a powerful expression that can hit deep in the other persons heart also.



how could a third party know the difference?


> and if a person utters with love and focuses on the words, then it may help like you said from preventing the mind from conspiring, while our attention/consciousness can 'explore the treasure within' like you said



how do the dumb cope?


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## chazSingh (May 1, 2014)

harry haller said:


> how could a third party know the difference?



have you never had anyone say anything to you, or heard someone say something...an inspired speech....a description of an event, a description of the emotions of someones life event, or aspirations...or love for something they put a lot of effort into, where when they speak, it sends shivers down your back...uplifts you, gets you thinking...wondering, contemplating...wanting to achieve something similar or greater or help in some way and make a difference?

if you have, i think you can compare it to someone who has blabbered in your face with meaningless, lifeless, emotionless crap, self centred crap...

when something comes from the heart, it has the power to strike another persons heart also in many ways








> how do the dumb cope?


cope with what?


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## japjisahib04 (May 1, 2014)

Abneet said:


> To me Naam Simran is a way to connect to with the Divine and practice Truth. Of course in Bani you will see it mentioned many times and in many different concepts. To understand the basic concept of Naam I can't even explain. You can go on and on about Naam and what you really think is the concept of Naam.
> 
> Naam in the words of Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh Ji:
> When you begin to feel the love of the Divine within your mind and body, know that grace has been bestowed. This is naam.
> ...


 To me NAAM is education - divine education, ' ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾਂ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਥੀਵੈ ਹਰਿਆ ॥੧॥ and this only can be achieved by studying and not parroting.
best regards


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## chazSingh (May 1, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> To me NAAM is education - divine education, ' ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾਂ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਥੀਵੈ ਹਰਿਆ ॥੧॥ and this only can be achieved by studying and not parroting.
> best regards



Satnaam Ji,

Why is there this assumption that everyone is parroting? even after the beautiful description Abneet has given?

Please explain what you mean by studying ji?


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## Luckysingh (May 1, 2014)

No one is gonna know the meaning of naam from studying !
*Naam *HAS to be experienced to understand it.
_AND _the ONLY way you can understand this_ *Naam*_ is through *Naam* Simran and *Naam Simran *only.

I can't understand that members saw the topic going off track into naam simran, when naam simran is all practically done to experience and understand this very naam itself!!!


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## chazSingh (May 1, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> No one is gonna know the meaning of naam from studying !
> *Naam *HAS to be experienced to understand it.
> _AND _the ONLY way you can understand this_ *Naam*_ is through *Naam* Simran and *Naam Simran *only.
> 
> I can't understand that members saw the topic going off track into naam simran, when naam simran is all practically done to experience and understand this very naam itself!!!



We,re all obviously mindlessly parroting lucky ji...God gave us a heart and took a seat in it...but we obviously cannot go beyond this concept of parroting...why god gave us a heart I have no idea... (sarcasm) 

so much parroting...even the ones who keep saying we,re parroting seem to be parroting with the same old comments...

Is this the limit of us human beings?

Surely we can utter guru ji,s bani with love....surely? 

And this studying that is required to experience naam...how much study is needed...I may take my last breathe tomorrow....I.m pretty sure in gurbani it says even an illiterate can experience waheguru...


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2014)

Gentlemen, how nice to see both of you again



> No one is gonna know the meaning of naam from studying !
> Naam HAS to be experienced to understand it.
> 
> AND the ONLY way you can understand this Naam is through Naam Simran and Naam Simran only.
> ...



How very definitive of you luckyji, in particular I really appreciate the capitalisation, however, I disagree with you, I do not think this is the only way, in fact I happen to think it is not the way at all, not even one of the ways, you make it, as always sound mystical and magical, when it is in fact to my mind nothing more than walking the way of truth.



> We,re all obviously mindlessly parroting lucky ji...God gave us a heart and took a seat in it...but we obviously cannot go beyond this concept of parroting...why god gave us a heart I have no idea... (sarcasm)
> 
> so much parroting...even the ones who keep saying we,re parroting seem to be parroting with the same old comments...
> 
> ...



If you wish to mumble words with love in your heart, that is your right to do so, but please do expect at least a counter opinion, and that opinion is that naam is nothing more than living truthfully

but then we are all allowed our opinions boys, at least I do not make mine the definitive....


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## chazSingh (May 1, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Gentlemen, how nice to see both of you again
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Truthful living is definately a manifestation of naam.
In my opinion...so I don,t think we differ...

my objection is to the constant belief from many posters that when a person utters the words of god with their mouth that they must just be mindless parroting...of course some people may be doing that...but not everyone...good builders ... bad builders and all that


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2014)

> my objection is to the constant belief from many posters that when a person utters the words of god with their mouth that they must just be mindless parroting...of course some people may be doing that...but not everyone...good builders ... bad builders and all that



Chazji

what about the dumb, are they devoid of this wonderful method?


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## Sherdil (May 1, 2014)

I feel we are all describing the same thing, but from different angles. Such is the nature of truth.

I urge members to explain Naam using gurbani. Indeed we experience  different things when meditating, but we all know experience is  subjective. It varies from person to person. Subjective experience does  not define the truth of the topic.

I posted a shabadh in reference to Naam, a few pages back (appears on  pannaa 9). It stated "Speaking it I live. Forgetting it I die."

Is this a death of consciousness? In the movie "Inception", a spinning  top was utilized by the main character to remind him that he was  dreaming. Even though he could smell it, taste it, hear it, touch it and  see it, it wasn't real. This is what Maya is. It is an illusion. We  need Naam to remember it isn't real. Naam is our spinning top. It is the  truth.

ਅਸੰਖ  ਨਾਵ  ਅਸੰਖ  ਥਾਵ  ॥
असंख नाव असंख थाव ॥
Asaŉkẖ nāv asaŉkẖ thāv.
Countless names, countless places.
ਅਗੰਮ  ਅਗੰਮ  ਅਸੰਖ  ਲੋਅ  ॥
अगम अगम असंख लोअ ॥
Agamm agamm asaŉkẖ lo▫a.
Inaccessible, unapproachable, countless celestial realms.
ਅਸੰਖ  ਕਹਹਿ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਭਾਰੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
असंख कहहि सिरि भारु होइ ॥
Asaŉkẖ kėhahi sir bẖār ho▫e.
Even to call them countless is to carry the weight on your head.
ਅਖਰੀ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਅਖਰੀ  ਸਾਲਾਹ  ॥
अखरी नामु अखरी सालाह ॥
Akẖrī nām akẖrī sālāh.
From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.
ਅਖਰੀ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਗੀਤ  ਗੁਣ  ਗਾਹ  ॥
अखरी गिआनु गीत गुण गाह ॥
Akẖrī gi▫ān gīṯ guṇ gāh.
From the Word, comes spiritual wisdom, singing the Songs of Your Glory.
ਅਖਰੀ  ਲਿਖਣੁ  ਬੋਲਣੁ  ਬਾਣਿ  ॥
अखरी लिखणु बोलणु बाणि ॥
Akẖrī likẖaṇ bolaṇ bāṇ.
From the Word, come the written and spoken words and hymns.
ਅਖਰਾ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਸੰਜੋਗੁ  ਵਖਾਣਿ  ॥
अखरा सिरि संजोगु वखाणि ॥
Akẖrā sir sanjog vakẖāṇ.
From the Word, comes destiny, written on one's forehead.
ਜਿਨਿ  ਏਹਿ  ਲਿਖੇ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਨਾਹਿ  ॥
जिनि एहि लिखे तिसु सिरि नाहि ॥
Jin ehi likẖe ṯis sir nāhi.
But the One who wrote these Words of Destiny-no words are written on His Forehead.
ਜਿਵ  ਫੁਰਮਾਏ  ਤਿਵ  ਤਿਵ  ਪਾਹਿ  ॥
जिव फुरमाए तिव तिव पाहि ॥
Jiv furmā▫e ṯiv ṯiv pāhi.
As He ordains, so do we receive.
ਜੇਤਾ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਤੇਤਾ  ਨਾਉ  ॥
जेता कीता तेता नाउ ॥
Jeṯā kīṯā ṯeṯā nā▫o.
The created universe is the manifestation of Your Name.
ਵਿਣੁ  ਨਾਵੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਕੋ  ਥਾਉ  ॥
विणु नावै नाही को थाउ ॥
viṇ nāvai nāhī ko thā▫o.
Without Your Name, there is no place at all.
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ  ਕਵਣ  ਕਹਾ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥
कुदरति कवण कहा वीचारु ॥
Kuḏraṯ kavaṇ kahā vīcẖār.
How can I describe Your Creative Power?
ਵਾਰਿਆ  ਨ  ਜਾਵਾ  ਏਕ  ਵਾਰ  ॥
वारिआ न जावा एक वार ॥
vāri▫ā na jāvā ek vār.
I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.
ਜੋ  ਤੁਧੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਸਾਈ  ਭਲੀ  ਕਾਰ  ॥
जो तुधु भावै साई भली कार ॥
Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā▫ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases You is the only good done,
ਤੂ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਲਾਮਤਿ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ  ॥੧੯॥
तू सदा सलामति निरंकार ॥१९॥
Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||19||
You, Eternal and Formless One. ||19||

The above shabadh (pannaa 4) states "From the Word, comes the Naam". The Word being  described in this shabadh is destiny. Gurbani also refers to this as  "lekha". This means "that which has been written". According to one's  destiny, one obtains the Naam (the truth). It is pre-determined whether  one will obtain the truth or not. Gurbani states "By His Hukam some find  the path, while others continue to wonder". Perhaps the truth cannot be  taught, but it can be seen. By the grace of the divine, some are able  to see it.

I invite the sangat to ponder this piece from the above shabadh:

"The created universe is a manifestation of your Name. Without your Name, there is no place at all."


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2014)

> I feel we are all describing the same thing, but from different angles. Such is the nature of truth.



I do not believe it to be the same thing, to some naam is a very personal feeling of walking in the path of god, being true, and doing true actions, period. To others it is an almost hypnotic  state induced by chanting and yoga, there is nothing similar here..



> I urge members to explain Naam using gurbani. Indeed we experience different things when meditating, but we all know experience is subjective. It varies from person to person. Subjective experience does not define the truth of the topic.



I don't know, I don't meditate



> The above shabadh states "From the Word, comes the Naam". The Word being described in this shabadh is destiny. Gurbani also refers to this as "lekha". This means "that which has been written". According to one's destiny, one obtains the Naam (the truth). It is pre-determined whether one will obtain the truth or not. Gurbani states "By His Hukam some find the path, while others continue to wonder". Perhaps the truth cannot be taught, but it can be seen. By the grace of the divine, some are able to see it.



The feeling of naam is open to every person at any stage of their life, it is not exclusive nor is it permanent, in my opinion, I think we are over complicating matters here, think the truth, speak the truth, live the truth, live in naam, do not, don't live in naam, it is not a exam that you pass and gain forever, it is a day by day thing, and it is remarkably simple, like most of Sikhism, again in my opinion


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## Ishna (May 1, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> *parroting is mindless talk*....e.g. saying "i love you, i love you" over and over to your husband\wife...but inside you thinking of other things and not actually felling any love for the other person....this is mindless parroting...
> 
> *mindFULL* talk is when the words are a* manifestation* of the *true* *feelings inside you*....feeling immense True unconditional love for your partner and saying "i love you" to them....*this is not parroting*...so i if keep saying "i love you, i love you" over and over, it is a powerful expression that can hit deep in the other persons heart also.



This is a really good way of explaining the difference between mindless and mindful japna.  Thanks for explaining it with this example.

As with any relationship, saying "I love you" is made even more real by following up the words with actions.  People in a loving relationship do more than just tell each other they love them, they care for them, do things to make them happy, work with them towards similar goals, and think about them often, taking them into account in every life decision.

This is a complete and holistic relationship and is the ideal.  Would you agree?

As for the Naam vs Naam Simran or Naam Jaap discussion, it was hoped we could focus on "Naam" the concept rather than descend into the whirlpool of debate which has happened so frequently in the past, as you and Lucky have highlighted.

Is it truly impossible to discuss Naam without getting stuck?  I don't know.  Lets continue and see where the path ahead takes us. 

PS. Thank you Sherdil!  Great direction and thanks for the reminder, I forgot you posted the shabad earlier!


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## Sherdil (May 1, 2014)

harry haller said:


> The feeling of naam is open to every person at any stage of their life, it is not exclusive nor is it permanent, in my opinion, I think we are over complicating matters here, think the truth, speak the truth, live the truth, live in naam, do not, don't live in naam, it is not a exam that you pass and gain forever, it is a day by day thing, and it is remarkably simple, like most of Sikhism, again in my opinion



I agree with you 100%, but what is the truth Harry ji? We have not been able to define it. In the Mool Mantar, Guru ji says "Walk with the Hukam. Nanak shows the way". Guru ji can show us the way, but the final realization is up to us. Some may never reach there, even though the path is available to all. Why is that?


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## Abneet (May 1, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> To me NAAM is education - divine education, ' ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾਂ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਥੀਵੈ ਹਰਿਆ ॥੧॥ and this only can be achieved by studying and not parroting.
> best regards



It is bad to call it parroting but your entitled to your opinion. If you doubt Naam at least try to experience it via Naam Simran. Not just doing Naam Simran but living truthfully and divine education too. It takes for some people very little time and others many years to experience that Divine Light within ourselves. These philosophers are bashing on the concept of Naam Simran for example Sikh Missionary Colleges don't understand the concept and think it is pointless but throughtout Bani and our history there have been many Chardi Kala Gursikhs all for the Concept of Naam Simran.


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## Ishna (May 1, 2014)

Is contemplating and reciting Gurbani also Naam Simran?


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## japjisahib04 (May 1, 2014)

Almost everyone think, he is living truthfully. That is why he is justifying, but what is truth and what is naam? Is truth, murti puja, is truth fasting, dividing humanity by caste, is truth parroting that we go after it due to lack of awareness? ਨਿਕਸੁ ਰੇ ਪੰਖੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਂਖ ॥ 204-9 -Door of the cage is open. Now come out of futile rituals and flyby taking support of your wings(bheebhek). If the bird keeps on repeating pankh pankh will he fly or remain stuck up inside? When he is reminded of his wings(bheebhek) then he will fly. The whole game is exercise of manh but our attempt is to clean it through repetition of a word by tongue. When someone does not know his trueself, he is like a tree without the roots, thus constructing anything on the foundation of parroting is like without roots. That is the reason almost 15 thousands deras are mushrooming in punjab. 

Naam is awareness - awareness of functioning of His hukam. Naam has further been elborated like, 'ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਦੇਇ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇ ॥ (page 759 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) The wisdom of the Guru is the treasure of the Naam. In other word essence of gurbani is naam and it can only be achieved by studying with our bhebek. Then Guru implants and enshrines the divine awareness- gur kai bachan dhiaaeiou mohi naao | (page 239). So Naam is not a tanglible. "It" has to be 'validated' in context of the words of the Guru..i.e. Shabad. One may get it in an instant others may sit for ages, embroiled in rituals and chantings and still be at sea. But the necessary condition for it to be internalised it through Bibek (power of discernment in an awake/prepared mind). In the end it is all about our intent or chaz achaar. If the intent is to control others (i.e. ego reigns supreme), then both bibek and Naam are distant dreams.


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## Harry Haller (May 2, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I agree with you 100%, but what is the truth Harry ji? We have not been able to define it. In the Mool Mantar, Guru ji says "Walk with the Hukam. Nanak shows the way". Guru ji can show us the way, but the final realization is up to us. Some may never reach there, even though the path is available to all. Why is that?



Again, in my opinion, we all know what the truth is, treat all people with respect, keep your word, avoid drugs, booze, porn, ogling women in mini skirts, let the bloke out in the red ford from the side road, work hard and honestly, share what you have, feel the pain of others, try and do something about it, get involved with community, cease the self self self attitude that many of us have, liberate oneself from desires but not from needs, have a mercedes but be equally happy if you have to drive a ford, and respect those that drive fords too, be humble, be ego free, look at things from above rather than blinkered, see everyones point of view, its all common sense...

why is that? because we get embroiled in ego, in money, in women, drugs, booze, self abuse, etc etc etc, and once we do that, we shut ourselves off from the truth and become self justifying.

Of course its easier to carry on doing those things and use mumbling as a hail mary, or even to take our mind off them, so that we can feel good about ourselves, someone mentioned a baba who refused to be alone with women, I would ask exactly what has that achieved? has a drug addict truly cured themself if all they have done is refuse to buy drugs? understanding is the key, either by faith or by being burnt so badly, it is imprinted on your very being, personally I favour the latter, but it is not for everyone..


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## Abneet (May 2, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Again, in my opinion, we all know what the truth is, treat all people with respect, keep your word, avoid drugs, booze, porn, ogling women in mini skirts, let the bloke out in the red ford from the side road, work hard and honestly, share what you have, feel the pain of others, try and do something about it, get involved with community, cease the self self self attitude that many of us have, liberate oneself from desires but not from needs, have a mercedes but be equally happy if you have to drive a ford, and respect those that drive fords too, be humble, be ego free, look at things from above rather than blinkered, see everyones point of view, its all common sense...
> 
> why is that? because we get embroiled in ego, in money, in women, drugs, booze, self abuse, etc etc etc, and once we do that, we shut ourselves off from the truth and become self justifying.
> 
> Of course its easier to carry on doing those things and use mumbling as a hail mary, or even to take our mind off them, so that we can feel good about ourselves, someone mentioned a baba who refused to be alone with women, I would ask exactly what has that achieved? has a drug addict truly cured themself if all they have done is refuse to buy drugs? understanding is the key, either by faith or by being burnt so badly, it is imprinted on your very being, personally I favour the latter, but it is not for everyone..



Haha yeah Sant Baba Nand Singh never was alone with a women because he didn't want a image of something with women in his mind;he wanted to be fully free of Kaam even in the mind. He really was living the Truth but had a lot of strict manners like that example and other stuff....


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## Harry Haller (May 2, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Haha yeah Sant Baba Nand Singh never was alone with a women because he didn't want a image of something with women in his mind;he wanted to be fully free of Kaam even in the mind. He really was living the Truth but had a lot of strict manners like that example and other stuff....




Living the truth or hiding from the truth?

I have an image of women in my mind all the time, I see mothers, sisters, daughters, nurses, policewomen, soldiers, customers, shop assistants, doctors and even forum administrators, what did he do if he had to see a doctor and it was a woman? panic? scream for help in case the dreaded kaam invaded his soul? are you saying that this baba would have refused to meet our beloved departed sister who knew more about Sikhi than many chola wearing buffoons? would he have had difficulty focusing on what she was saying because she was a woman? 

Sounds like he would have been more suited to the Taliban..


I do appreciate you backing my argument up but you may wish to stick to information that helps your argument not mine in the future, it makes it a bit boring for me


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## japjisahib04 (May 2, 2014)

I do not wish to create doubts in anyone's feelings towards Baba Ishar Singh Ji; but, just to mention an incident that occurred in 1956 in the presence and leadership of Baba ji, may help the Sangat to focus on the Truthful essence of the Gurbani.

Baba ji along with his entourage of 20/30 disciple Sikhs were visiting town of Bagha-Puranaa in 1957. One of my friend who was one of the young Sewadars in that community and had great admiration for Baba Ji.

The Jathhaa, for sleeping at night, was stationed in a small school. Early hours of the next morning fire razed one of the rooms where disciples were resting. The Jathhaa, supposed to perform morning keertan in the local Gurdwara was leaving in a hurry.

The reason was that a young female devotee of the Baba Ji visited the location and wanted to see Baba ji for private session. Somehow, she was talked by a young disciple into joining couple of his colleagues and then they will help her to see Baba ji. She spent the night with those disciples and by morning she was found dead. Decision by Baba Ji was to cremate her in the very room by setting the room on fire, that was done. Local police investigation declared the woman was crazy and died during struggle to protect Babaji. Thus, Baba Ji was free to leave for next station.

My point is not to malign reputation of Baba JI who is no more, but to ask Sangat for thorough and factual search of evidence before following them. Recently we have Bapu Asa ram, sai baba, ram rahim singh and many others.


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## chazSingh (May 2, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Is contemplating and reciting Gurbani also Naam Simran?



in my opinion, yes...

by contemplating and reciting, you are trying to awaken what we have forgotten i.e. the Truth...the act of trying to remember something i.e. Simran.

from what i gather from Guru Ji, We have forgotten something very powerful and loving that lies very deep within all of us...our true reality...and instead we are living under our Ego that says we are what we see, feel, hear, smell, and touch...

because we are so attached to what we experience through the 9 doors of the body, Gurbani says to try to detach from those 9 doors a little bit at a time and contemplate on what is within....

for me, it is easier to block my life experience through the 9 doors for a period of time by waking up in the early hours and closing my eyes, sitting in pure silence...i can take my attention within myself.

but it is still powerful to try and contemplate during the day if you can.

all other words, information is based on the outer world through the 9 doors...but we have something very special with us, Gurbani that came from beyond...so that's why people meditate/contemplate on Gurbani powered my their love and thirst.

This is just my humble opinion...and one that has made me truely believe in God


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## Abneet (May 2, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Living the truth or hiding from the truth?
> 
> I have an image of women in my mind all the time, I see mothers, sisters, daughters, nurses, policewomen, soldiers, customers, shop assistants, doctors and even forum administrators, what did he do if he had to see a doctor and it was a woman? panic? scream for help in case the dreaded kaam invaded his soul? are you saying that this baba would have refused to meet our beloved departed sister who knew more about Sikhi than many chola wearing buffoons? would he have had difficulty focusing on what she was saying because she was a woman?
> 
> ...



He would still see women with company of others. I don't see what's wrong with that it's not like he was bashing women rights. He was definitely a helpful Sant ji who did a lot of seva for the people back than and we should refrain from Slandering Saints.


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## Abneet (May 2, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> I do not wish to create doubts in anyone's feelings towards Baba Ishar Singh Ji; but, just to mention an incident that occurred in 1956 in the presence and leadership of Baba ji, may help the Sangat to focus on the Truthful essence of the Gurbani.
> 
> Baba ji along with his entourage of 20/30 disciple Sikhs were visiting town of Bagha-Puranaa in 1957. One of my friend who was one of the young Sewadars in that community and had great admiration for Baba Ji.
> 
> ...



This is a interesting.If the death was in the hands of Baba Ji I would be surprised. Case seems a little fishy though, but I won't judge negatively on him.


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## Ishna (May 3, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥
> असंख नाव असंख थाव ॥
> Asaŉkẖ nāv asaŉkẖ thāv.
> Countless names, countless places.
> ...


 
Sherdil Ji

The tuk you've singled out was also highlighlighed by BhagatSingh in this thread:  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/8672-naam-my-understanding.html


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## Luckysingh (May 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> How very definitive of you luckyji, in particular I really appreciate the capitalisation, however, I disagree with you, I do not think this is the only way, in fact I happen to think it is not the way at all, not even one of the ways, you make it, as always sound mystical and magical, when it is in fact to my mind nothing more than walking the way of truth.


Correct, it's not the only way, cuz there is no point building a shrine within and then earning or even contributing earnings to acts of dishonesty.
As Within should also be as Outwardly.

However, I disagree that naam simran is not one of the factors that can be omitted...........I will explain a little below....



> If you wish to mumble words with love in your heart, that is your right to do so, but please do expect at least a counter opinion, and that opinion is that naam is nothing more than living truthfully


Hey Harryji, the real simran happens  or begins to happen when there is no mumbling. It's at a stage when it ALL becomes Sukham (subtle and internal). This is when the true name in both nirgun(formless) and sargun(form) begins to enshrine itself within you.


> but then we are all allowed our opinions boys, at least I do not make mine the definitive....


No dude, you don't make it definite and I never suspect you of it. Your a very cool and laid back brother with your approach and I respect your honesty in telling it like it is, as according to your current state of mind.
You see, this is what I think the core of sikhi is about...-..... It's about learning and developing and changing your own approach with regards to your current states of conscious.
In the process, we should always look at our own shortcomings and blame ourselves for not understanding something.
You my dear bro are very good and honest in admitting your own faults at all times.

Let's say a math student starts in early days by just reciting times tables repetitively to such an extent that they become enshrined in his conscious and mind. This same student then continues learning for years and years until he is able to master calculus.
Although, time tables and calculus are continents apart, we all know that if a student never learns times tables by age of 11 or so, then it's very unlikely that he shall progress further in the field of maths. 

In same manner we have to to train, quieten and hammer down our mind with some form of _stilling _it as in meditation. Once we begin to get control over it, then the knowledge and Love for divine truth begins to flow.

To help us get that internal quietness from our consistent thoughts, we have a "Gurmantar'.
As per Bhai Gurdas ji Vaaran... the gurmantar advised by Nanak Guruji is ''waheguru''
GUR-MANTAR is 2 words put together and can be further split to 
MAN= Mind
TAR= Tool.
hence, gurmantar becomes tool for stilling this racing mind.


I can explain that you can begin to understand this _naam _or state of consciousness when you put many of the other areas in gurbani together.

Brother Harryji, I can only speak for myself and say that it may be a good idea to understand some other important areas of gurbani before one starts to come to the ideals of Naam, Shabad and Hukam.
(well this is only a suggestion and it may help or may not!)

For me these were probably grasping definitions and explanations of Maya.
The _3 gunas of maya_ and how a gurmukh has his state of mind in the 4th turiya/chautha padh state beyond maya.
You see Harry ji, truthful living and conduct is worldly action and all done with good intentions of mind. .....But, it is under the banner of_ satogun_(good deeds) which is still maya itself.
To go Beyond _satogun_ is to go beyond maya and that is in the formless or _Nirgun_ state.
Therefore, this leads one to try and understand what _Sargun and Nirgun _is.
Just the talk of this topic can go on and on for hours on end but 21st ashthpadhi in sukhmani sahib is very deep on this matter.


Once I began to understand this, I realised that the whole religious approach is both sargun and nirgun. 
God, creater the higher self..... is nirankar but can manifest from the sargun worldly approach to nirgun nirankar.

Before creation or big bang....etc... there was only the formless, Nirgun, truth of Nirankar. Then the sargun form came into being of which everything comes in maya as we experience.
Therefore, In Naam simran the approach is to go back to Mool(origin) and experience or feel this _'nirgun naam'_.
 So from physically approach of parot in sargun, we can find our way to the nirgun, formless, subtle or sukham simran.

From Nirgun came sargun and from sargun, we can go back to nirgun.
The problem in religion is that we get stuck in these sargun andnnirgun ideals and create our own road blocks. WE box and limit to just partial manifestations and can't see the whole picture.
We just blind ourselves and we are ALL guilty in one way or the other.

Once I developed some better understanding of these few core areas and some others, I began to understand and maybe feel, the _divine love._
This divine love was probably only understood and experienced after naam simran.
It is miles and miles apart from the worldly love as we know it.
I know you are wondering why and how ?
Again, I cannot define it, but once you feel a hint of it, you awaken to the fact that worldly love mostly has elements of '_conditional'_ that help sustain it.
Yet, Divine love, is the most pure and truthful feeling that can be(love is the closest description) and you just don't know why or what condition if any makes you feel it.....?
The only realisation and answer you feel is that YOU are HIM and HE is YOU.........That there is no separation and the separation was just illusion resulting from ego.

My current understanding is that _naam and shabad_ are very closely related and these all come from the bigger _hukam._


In anand sahib....ang 917

*ਨਾਮੁ ਿਜਨ ਕੈ ਮਿਨ ਵਿਸਆ ਵਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥*
*naam jin kai man vasi-aa vaajay sabad ghanayray.*
*The divine melody of the Shabad vibrates for those, within whose minds the Naam abides.*

This shabad vibrates in those within that mind where the naam resides.
Thus, then the One is living in pure Hukam.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੇ ਸਾਿਹਬ ਿਕਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਘਿਰ ਤੇਰੈ ॥
kahai naanak sachay saahib ki-aa naahee ghar tayrai. ||3||
_Says Nanak, O my True Lord and Master, what is there which is not in Your home?_
_||3||_

ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੋ ॥
saachaa naam mayraa aaDhaaro.
_The True Name is my only support._

ਸਾਚ ੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰ ੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਿਜਿਨ ਭੁਖਾ ਸਿਭ ਗਵਾਈਆ ॥
saach naam aDhaar mayraa jin bhukhaa sabh gavaa-ee-aa.
_The True Name is my only support; it satisfies all hunger._

ਕਿਰ ਸਿਤ ਸੁਖ ਮਿਨ ਆਇ ਵਿਸਆ ਿਜਿਨ ਇਛਾ ਸਿਭ ਪੁਜਾਈਆ ॥
kar saaNt sukh man aa-ay vasi-aa jin ichhaa sabh pujaa-ee-aa.
_It has brought peace and tranquility to my mind; it has fulfilled all my desires._

ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਗੁਰ ੂ ਿਵਟਹ ੁ ਿਜਸ ਦੀਆ ਏਿਹ ਵਿਡਆਈਆ ॥
sadaa kurbaan keetaa guroo vitahu jis dee-aa ayhi vadi-aa-ee-aa.
_I am forever a sacrifice to the Guru, who possesses such glorious greatness._

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹ ੁ ਸੰਤਹ ੁ ਸਬਿਦ ਧਰਹ ੁ ਿਪਆਰੋ ॥
kahai naanak sunhu santahu sabad Dharahu pi-aaro.
_Says Nanak, listen, O Saints; enshrine love for the Shabad._

ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੋ ॥੪॥
saachaa naam mayraa aaDhaaro. ||4||
_The True Name is my only support_. ||4||

ਵਾਜੇ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਿਤਤੁ ਘਿਰ ਸਭਾਗੈ ॥
vaajay panch sabad ghar sabhaagai.

_The Panch Shabad, the five primal sounds, vibrate in that blessed house._

ਘਿਰ ਸਭਾਗੈ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੇ ਕਲਾ ਿਜਤੁ ਘਿਰ ਧਾਰੀਆ ॥
ghar sabhaagai sabad vaajay kalaa jit ghar Dhaaree-aa.
_In that blessed house, the Shabad vibrates; He infuses His almighty power into it._

ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਤੁਧੁ ਵਿਸ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੰਟਕੁ ਮਾਿਰਆ ॥
_panch doot tuDh vas keetay kaal kantak maari-aa._
_Through You, we subdue the five demons of desire, and slay Death, the torturer._

ਧੁਿਰ ਕਰਿਮ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਿਜਨ ਕਉ ਿਸ ਨਾਿਮ ਹਿਰ ਕੈ ਲਾਗੇ ॥
Dhur karam paa-i-aa tuDh jin ka-o se naam har kai laagay.
_Those who have such pre-ordained destiny are attached to the Lord's Name._

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਆ ਿਤਤੁ ਘਿਰ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥੫॥
kahai naanak tah sukh ho-aa ghar anhad vaajay. ||5||
_Says Nanak, they are at peace, and the unstruck sound current vibrates within their homes. ||5||_


I like to think of Naam being a state itself. 
From this Naam come the vibrations or waves of shabad.
This shabad is experienced (heard and felt) via naam simran.
I understand that this shabad is again completely subtle and nirgun but it vibrates by his blessing and kirpa to the ones that make the effort.
The effort is Sargun aspects of doing good deeds and truthful living...etc and the nirgun aspects of going internal to the subtle and sukham states within.
Like I said and you said correctly, I shouldn't get stuck and create my own roadblock in the nirgun and internal approach of simran and none of you should get stuck with roadblocks in the sargun approach of satogun maya....... BOTH efforts should be made.
(Note- 3 gunas of maya are rajogun, tamogun and satogun, and beyond is 4th state called many names like turiya avastha, chautha padh...)


I hope this helps a little !!
I don't expect you to agree or understand it straight away as that can only happen with state of mind and consciousness. But I hope that it may encourage you to try and learn what this Oneness, divine love, naam and shabad...etc... is all about !

I can only tell you what I currently feel and you can only tell me the same. It makes us both ask and question our very own personal Gyan-knowledge.


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## Sherdil (May 3, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Sherdil Ji
> 
> The tuk you've singled out was also highlighlighed by BhagatSingh in this thread:  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/8672-naam-my-understanding.html



Thank you Ishna ji! eacesignkaur:

I read through everyone's post, and once again I am amazed at how history repeats itself. You guys were discussing the same points years ago! lol

I don't think you guys came to a definitive conclusion on that tuk, so maybe I will have a crack at it:

"The created universe is a manifestation of your name. Without your name, there is no place at all".

Is the name "Oankaar?" Is it the Oankaar that manifested the universe? Is the Oankaar truth? Hence "Sat Naam" (the name is truth). 

Oankaar is the truth of reality. It is the primordial sound that vibrates throughout the universe as the shabadh. From the shabadh manifests the multitude of creation, like different notes in a musical composition. When looked at individually, the notes are just individual tones. But when played together, you can hear the entirety of the song.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (May 3, 2014)

Sometimes, words don't work.


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## angrisha (May 5, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Almost everyone think, he is living truthfully. That is why he is justifying, but what is truth and what is naam? Is truth, murti puja, is truth fasting, dividing humanity by caste, is truth parroting that we go after it due to lack of awareness? ਨਿਕਸੁ ਰੇ ਪੰਖੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਂਖ ॥ 204-9 -Door of the cage is open. Now come out of futile rituals and flyby taking support of your wings(bheebhek). If the bird keeps on repeating pankh pankh will he fly or remain stuck up inside? When he is reminded of his wings(bheebhek) then he will fly. The whole game is exercise of manh but our attempt is to clean it through repetition of a word by tongue. When someone does not know his trueself, he is like a tree without the roots, thus constructing anything on the foundation of parroting is like without roots. That is the reason almost 15 thousands deras are mushrooming in punjab.
> 
> Naam is awareness - *awareness of functioning of His hukam.* .



I had a thought as I was reading your post.... if someone believes that murti puja, fasting, etc is the way of truth and thats what they hold in their life... isnt that living with in hukam for there life?  Weather someone else sees it as wrong or right, necessary or unnecessary.    

Ive stated many times before my understanding has and is constantly changing, and I may be wrong about this as well.


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## Harry Haller (May 5, 2014)

angrisha said:


> I had a thought as I was reading your post.... if someone believes that murti puja, fasting, etc is the way of truth and thats what they hold in their life... isnt that living with in hukam for there life?  Weather someone else sees it as wrong or right, necessary or unnecessary.
> 
> Ive stated many times before my understanding has and is constantly changing, and I may be wrong about this as well.



Guru Nanak stated the truth, he did not invent the truth anymore than Newton invented gravity, empty rituals do not make you a better person, whether you believe it to be truth or not.

some believe that making another a slave is the truth
or that repeating a mantra is the truth and may result in something magical
or that marrying out of caste deserves to be treated with death

the truth is the truth, there is only one truth, how is food deprivation going to educate? 

So where did you learn to become so enlightened? what did you study? what life experienced did you use?

err, I just didn't eat for a while, thats what did it for me, far easier lol


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## japjisahib04 (May 5, 2014)

angrisha said:


> I had a thought as I was reading your post.... if someone believes that murti puja, fasting, etc is the way of truth and thats what they hold in their life... isnt that living with in hukam for there life?  Weather someone else sees it as wrong or right, necessary or unnecessary.
> 
> Ive stated many times before my understanding has and is constantly changing, and I may be wrong about this as well.


 I don't know what type of hukam you are referring about - is it in negative or positive sense. I have noticed whenever we failed to perform successful operation, any loss occurs or any accident happens' we declared it as our destiny or His ' hukam/bhana' or 'razzai' though it all happens due to our ignorance or lack of awareness of the correct rules or blind faith.

Guru Sahib says, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੋ ਬੁਝੈ ਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਫਿਰੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਸਚੁ ॥ only those who are able to recognize their true self, their roots are able to keep a grip on it and no matter how convincing is the company of dera culture or any difficult situation, they don't resort to deras, smadhs. astroglers, or any rituals for magical effect.

It is not possible that guru sahib didn’t know how to do bhagti, but quotes a passing common perception on page 612, ‘since I didn’t know how to do bhagti, I started parroting guru, guru, guru, guru or ram ram and as such people started addressing me devotee of ram (with the name of ramdas) - 'ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 'and at other place guru sahib says, 'ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ purpose behind parroting was to transform manh/heart but despite parroting, manh is constantly practicing deception, thus it is a futile exercise. Through out gurubani guru sahib try to explain the futility of rituals being followed out of ignorance.

best regards
sahni


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## Sherdil (May 5, 2014)

angrisha said:


> I had a thought as I was reading your post.... if someone believes that murti puja, fasting, etc is the way of truth and thats what they hold in their life... isnt that living with in hukam for there life?  Weather someone else sees it as wrong or right, necessary or unnecessary.
> 
> Ive stated many times before my understanding has and is constantly changing, and I may be wrong about this as well.



Guru ji does say that according to the Hukam some find the path, while others continue to wander. The catch is that we don't know what the Hukam is, until it has already passed. Indeed it may be the Hukam for someone to do murti puja, but then it is also the Hukam for you to educate them. By the Hukam they may come to learn the truth or not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't act. By acting, we are fulfilling the Hukam. By not acting, we are also fulfilling the Hukam. I see it as fulfilling something that is already written.


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## angrisha (May 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Guru Nanak stated the truth, he did not invent the truth anymore than Newton invented gravity, empty rituals do not make you a better person, whether you believe it to be truth or not.
> 
> some believe that making another a slave is the truth
> or that repeating a mantra is the truth and may result in something magical
> ...



I guess I failed to articulate what I meant.... To ppl who perform these empty rituals they may not seem empty to them. So, if by hukam or gurparsad we can become 'enlightened', those that do follow rituals etc isnt then by hukam that they do that?

Even to understand naam, wouldnt that be with hukam that we are able to do that.


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## japjisahib04 (May 5, 2014)

angrisha said:


> I guess I failed to articulate what I meant.... To ppl who perform these empty rituals they may not seem empty to them. So, if by hukam or gurparsad we can become 'enlightened', those that do follow rituals etc isnt then by hukam that they do that?
> 
> Even to understand naam, wouldnt that be with hukam that we are able to do that.


 Hukmi Hukm chalai rahao.. Unlike the traditional interpretation,  second pauree of japji sahib promugalate there are two hukmi - one is our mind which rules our body and drags us into vicious vikars or in futile rituals and the other is Akal Purakh which rules the entire universe. Then guru sahib says, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥  chattering which keeps in duality and dilemma is kachi baani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.463.9.

best regards


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## angrisha (May 6, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Hukmi Hukm chalai rahao.. Unlike the traditional interpretation,  second pauree of japji sahib promugalate there are two hukmi - one is our mind which rules our body and drags us into vicious vikars or in futile rituals and the other is Akal Purakh which rules the entire universe. Then guru sahib says, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥  chattering which keeps in duality and dilemma is kachi baani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.463.9.
> 
> best regards



SainiJi

Thank you for this explanation, I think I just got it! I was having a hard time wrapping my head around this.


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## gur_meet (May 6, 2014)

To understand about Naam these lines from Sukmani Sahib ji are illuminating -

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਗਲੇ ਜੰਤ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Sagalae Janth ||
The Naam is the Support of all creatures.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Khandd Brehamandd ||
The Naam is the Support of the earth and solar systems.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Simrith Baedh Puraan ||
The Naam is the Support of the Simritees, the Vedas and the Puraanas.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸੁਨਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Sunan Giaan Dhhiaan ||
The Naam is the Support by which we hear of spiritual wisdom and meditation.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਆਗਾਸ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Aagaas Paathaal ||
The Naam is the Support of the Akaashic ethers and the nether regions.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Sagal Aakaar ||
The Naam is the Support of all bodies.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਸਭ ਭਵਨ ॥
Naam Kae Dhhaarae Pureeaa Sabh Bhavan ||
The Naam is the Support of all worlds and realms.

ਨਾਮ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਧਰੇ ਸੁਨਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ॥
Naam Kai Sang Oudhharae Sun Sravan ||
Associating with the Naam, listening to it with the ears, one is saved.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਨੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਾਏ ॥
Kar Kirapaa Jis Aapanai Naam Laaeae ||
Those whom the Lord mercifully attaches to His Naam

ਨਾਨਕ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਮਹਿ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥੫॥
Naanak Chouthhae Padh Mehi So Jan Gath Paaeae ||5||
- O Nanak, in the fourth state, those humble servants attain salvation. ||5||

*ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮ :  ੫ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ  : ਅੰਗ ੨੮੪  *– SGGS 284

The word "Dhhaarae" means support , to keep in place , shaped.
Naam thus is the support of the whole created world.

Naam is representative of Mool in the creation which is evident from the Mool Manter.
The words in the Mool Manter cannot be translated but a meaning or interpretation can be given (which also may not be complete).

In the word '_Satnaam_" _Sat_ is translated as truth and so  then may cause  some misdirection. _Sat _means truth,true and is a fact , reality ,unchanging , constant etc.

Satnaam comes after Ek ongkar (- explains that creation has come from One and there is  oneness ). Satnaam refers to the Sat part in the creation which is Naam.
Naam is unchanging , true reality the support of the other created part. All else in the creation is changing, subject to birth-life-death process.

Naam is everywhere in creation. Naam is within us too.

We can access naam through Simran.
Naam simran takes us  to the mool .


wjkk wjkf


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## Harry Haller (May 6, 2014)

> We can access naam through Simran.



how would you define simran?


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## gur_meet (May 6, 2014)

Simran is remembrance. As per gurmat Simran is done through following ways -

Jap of gurbani 
Jap of guru manter.
Jap of Gurbani Vichar.

The purpose is to shift the state of mind , transform it , to infuse it with love of the mool all around . Naam and mool are one and same.

Simran is the way to transform our mind . To shift awareness within and to then to experience and see oneness all around. Simran enables us to feel Hazuri - presence of Waheguruji within and all around. Simran enables us to shift to a state where haume is relegated to background.


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## japjisahib04 (May 6, 2014)

Very strange access Naam through simran. Lokan ram khilona jaana.


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## gur_meet (May 6, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Very strange access Naam through simran. Lokan ram khilona jaana.



One is entitled to one's view .
Then tell what is the purpose of Simran ?


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## ActsOfGod (May 6, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Simran is remembrance. As per gurmat Simran is done through following ways -
> 
> Jap of gurbani
> Jap of guru manter.
> ...



There are far more visceral experiences in this world to shift ones awareness and transform ones mind. 

Walk down the street and witness the suffering and pain that people are struggling through.  Sit with them and feel their pain.  Hear their cries and laments, and see their anguish with eyes of mercy.  Can you feel the pain of a mother who lost her only child?  Can you feel all of the suffering, all of the pain, all of misery and not just shut it out and pretend like your life is fine?  You will find God there, among the unwashed masses, not in your theoretical constructs and chanting sessions.

AoG


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## gur_meet (May 6, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> One is entitled to one's view .
> Then tell what is the purpose of Simran ?




Simran is of Naam.
All gurbani talks is about Naam.
Simran leads one to Naam.


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## ActsOfGod (May 6, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Simran is of Naam.
> All gurbani talks is about Naam.
> Simran leads one to Naam.



What is Naam exactly?


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## gur_meet (May 6, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> There are far more visceral experiences in this world to shift ones awareness and transform ones mind.
> 
> Walk down the street and witness the suffering and pain that people are struggling through.  Sit with them and feel their pain.  Hear their cries and laments, and see their anguish with eyes of mercy.  Can you feel the pain of a mother who lost her only child?  Can you feel all of the suffering, all of the pain, all of misery and not just shut it out and pretend like your life is fine?  You will find God there, among the unwashed masses, not in your theoretical constructs and chanting sessions.
> 
> AoG



 You have taken a totally different direction and meaning. You are presupposing so much.  Gurbani is not theoretical construct.

This act of empathy cannot take you anywhere and is not the correct way to view the world.
First reflect on purpose of suffering.
The purpose of life experiences.
The purpose for which soul has melded with the physical body and living the life on earth.
 The gurbani leads one to view the world from the point of view of love .
Bhai khanaya ji was not a theoretical person.


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## gur_meet (May 6, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> What is Naam exactly?



How can one explain naam in simple words. 
One has to reflect on mool manter. 
Reflect on creation and how gurbani explains it.
Naam is the sat - real and unchanging part of creation. Rest is created part.
Guruji call it maya , kurh . This part is subject to destruction , is changing and not permanent.

I have not written long explanatory sentences. But reflection on these aspects through gurbani is the way.
Vichar of gurbani opens up the way to knowledge.

I am just a small person with a sincere intention to express views on naam in this forum after looking at the question. 

So Bhul chuk maaf karni.

WJKK WJKF


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## ActsOfGod (May 6, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Naam is the sat - real and unchanging part of creation. Rest is created part.



Ok.  How do I access and experience Naam?  What is the prescription for this?

I sincerely want to know.

AoG


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## ActsOfGod (May 6, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> You have taken a totally different direction and meaning. You are presupposing so much.  Gurbani is not theoretical construct.
> 
> This act of empathy cannot take you anywhere and is not the correct way to view the world.
> First reflect on purpose of suffering.
> ...




If you don't have empathy then where does that leave you?  If you see suffering and you just walk on by, what does it make you other than an armchair philosopher?  Bhai Khanaya Ji did not ignore suffering.  He took action.

You seem to be propagating the idea of sitting around and philosophizing without actually *doing* anything.

From what I know, Naam is an _active force_.  Every person in history who was imbued with Naam actually took massive action and we're still talking about them today (for example Bhai Khanaya Ji).

So, the way I measure it is this: words are meaningless, and talk is cheap.  If I haven't actually done anything, taken any action, then I am full of crap.  The real Naam is an active force that motives a person into action, and we can only judge by results.  All the beloved GurSikhs who came before us didn't talk about Naam, they showed us what a person imbued with Naam becomes.

AoG


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## gur_meet (May 7, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> If you don't have empathy then where does that leave you?  If you see suffering and you just walk on by, what does it make you other than an armchair philosopher?  Bhai Khanaya Ji did not ignore suffering.  He took action.
> 
> You seem to be propagating the idea of sitting around and philosophizing without actually *doing* anything.
> 
> ...



First I am making it clear that at no point I have propogated the idea  of sitting around and philosophizing without actually *doing* anything.
You are unjustly using strong  words.


You have refered to Naam being active force. I agree . But are you supposing that Naam expresses the only way as you state through the gursikhs who have taken action. You are doing injustice to innumerable gursikhs who have quietly achieved state of naam . Their are not in limelight neither the small changes they have brought.

Do you believe that Naam can come to only those who intend to take action or Naam induces state of action. Further this action has to be to feel suffering and take action.

You are confining Naam's action  to a particular way.  Sorry we are to be guided by the Guru only. See panna 305

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
Gur Sathigur Kaa Jo Sikh Akhaaeae S Bhalakae Outh Har Naam Dhhiaavai ||
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru the True Guru shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵੈ ॥
Oudham Karae Bhalakae Parabhaathee Eisanaan Karae Anmrith Sar Naavai ||
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.

ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਦੋਖ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
Oupadhaes Guroo Har Har Jap Jaapai Sabh Kilavikh Paap Dhokh Lehi Jaavai ||
Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.

ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵੈ ਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
Fir Charrai Dhivas Gurabaanee Gaavai Behadhiaa Outhadhiaa Har Naam Dhhiaavai ||
Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.

*ਗਉੜੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ : ੧ ਮ :  ੪ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ :  ਅੰਗ ੩੦੫ ਪੰ .  ੧੮*

Can you blame the Guru for propagating  sitting around  like how  you are saying.

Lastly Gursikhs are always prepared for seva in what ever way the opportunity comes.


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## ActsOfGod (May 7, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> First I am making it clear that at no point I have propogated the idea  of sitting around and philosophizing without actually *doing* anything.
> You are unjustly using strong  words.
> 
> 
> ...



The shabad you have quoted is giving instruction on the lifestyle of a GurSikh.  What is laid out is how to conduct ones daily activities.  There is no "sitting around" in that shabad.  It is a prescription for how to organize your day and get organized for daily life.




gur_meet said:


> You are unjustly using strong  words.



I don't mean to hurt your feelings.  I apologize if I caused you any pain.



gur_meet said:


> You have refered to Naam being active force. I agree . But are you supposing that Naam expresses the only way as you state through the gursikhs who have taken action. You are doing injustice to innumerable gursikhs who have quietly achieved state of naam . Their are not in limelight neither the small changes they have brought.
> 
> Do you believe that Naam can come to only those who intend to take action or Naam induces state of action. Further this action has to be to feel suffering and take action.



That's my whole point.  According to my understanding (and I could be wrong), when someone is filled with Naam, everything changes in their life.  It's like being in love.  Have you ever seen someone who is truly in love?  The world calls him _Deewana _("mad").  Because he cares for nothing except his beloved, and he has the bravery of a lion, willing to risk his life, willing to undergo untold hardships, etc.  There is a story which is very fitting.  

A soldier is talking with a general as they watch the surveillance tape of a man's bold and daring rescue of his younger sister from her captors.  He risks his life, risking torture and certain death, to save her from them.  As they are watching the tape, the soldier exclaims, "He's mad!"

"No," the general replies, "it's something far more dangerous.  It's Love."

So when I talk about Naam being an active force, what I mean is that it motivates a person to get out of their comfort zone and to become a change agent in the world.  I really doubt that someone would sit in their home counting beads on a rosary after they've been hit with the lightning bolt that is Naam.  Again, I could be wrong, but this is what I understand.

And it's not only about injustice in the world.  It's about helping others, in a real sense.  There are many ways to help: with money, with time, with effort, with kindness, with love, with caring, just listening to someone, helping to solve their problems, etc.

It's high time that the Sikhs actually put into practice what they've been learning.

Guru's Bani (from what I understand) is not meant to be just recited.  We are being taught things on many levels and once we read Bani, we must understand it and plant it in our hearts and minds, and then *apply it in our daily life*.  This means taking action, changing our old behaviors, putting new behaviors into practice, actually benefiting mankind (not just reciting the Bani but actually *doing* what it says).

Our numbers are few, and it usually takes only ONE Sikh for massive things to happen.  But then again, when you're imbued with Naam, ONE is more than enough.

Sorry, don't mean to offend you.  But, unlike other religions, Sikhi is not about sitting and reciting some mantra and chanting and then going home.  So you sang a shabad, so what?  Did it help that teen who is hooked on drugs?  Did it help the homeless who has been hungry for four days?  Did it please your Guru?  Where was your mind even when you were singing the shabad?  Was it really attuned to Vaheguru, or thinking about worldly matters?

When you are imbued with Naam, you can't help but be a change for good in the world.  It's automatic.

AoG


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## gur_meet (May 7, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> But, unlike other religions, Sikhi is not about sitting and reciting some mantra and chanting and then going home.  So you sang a shabad, so what?  Did it help that teen who is hooked on drugs?  Did it help the homeless who has been hungry for four days?  Did it please your Guru?  Where was your mind even when you were singing the shabad?  Was it really attuned to Vaheguru, or thinking about worldly matters?
> 
> When you are imbued with Naam, you can't help but be a change for good in the world.  It's automatic.
> 
> AoG



Your post is about Dukh in the world and does Naam induces one to be a change agent. To bring a difference.  Let us first with look at this aspect .

I normally avoid talking about myself but let this be one exception. Disease is one kind of suffering one encounters. Long back I wanted to be in medical profession but in reality circumstances had put me in finance field. As from my school days I privately had been studying medical systems, psychology etc. So i started learning about alternative medicine. Ayurveda , nature therapy ,acupressure ,  magnetic therapy and so many. But found Homeopathy the best so started. Even had registration as a Doctor. Family and friends were coming for medicines .There were other references too. I found some diseases were gone soon some took time and some did not budge at all. People were in pain. So I kept up the learning and came to role of Mind in disease. Gurbani explains that Vikar have role in bringing about Dukh. So then started learning about  about Mind-body medicine. Role of meditation in healing. Also as to how disease and other sufferings are a part of our world. The vikars are with us right from the time of birth. We have a personalty then and there . Is there a role of prior births. Gurbani explains ' janam janam ki mann ko  mal lagi , kala hova sya ." meaning we have this affliction from prior births too. ( _I suggest that you read the Book Soul's Plan by Robert Schwartz to know more about this and to have a better perspective on suffering in the world_)

At early stage itself there were some principles of action chosen by me. Of these one was not to follow any dera, baba etc. For this kept in mind guru's direction - "Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo " meaning what ever secrets are attributed in the name of Ram , Rahim ,Quran ,Puran etc were not to be followed. Next principle was to validate all external thought with gurbani's teachings.

Gurbani views suffering as a medicine. Dukh has potential to become change agent. When do we become more spiritual. Do prayers. 
Vikars are a cause of so many problems in this world. The choices exercised by people have source in these. Vikars dominate our minds. These are overpowering. A person with big ego and in anger would only act and behave in anger. When these persons are in power so what happens is what we have been seeing in human history.

Mind is such that it is dominated by thought and feelings.When there is negative then there is a sequence of negative thoughts , judgments , rationalizations , justifications for the action. All these come from the subconscious mind. The store house of our beliefs ,memory and learning. 
We are not individuals but  a group as well. We are affected by not only  individual consciousness but by group consciousness as well. ( _Here is where role  of sadh sangat comes in. Guruji has made it a transformation agent as well).
_And when we have positive feelings and positive thoughts. The actions are accordingly. Gurbani changes the mind. Gurbani brings in our mind touch of Naam .Positive attracts more of positive. Only a positive mind is more nearer to Naam.

I can only picture what Bhai Khanaya ji's stae of mind would be. A quite type of person who had been listening and knowing about gurbani. He understood about oneness. He understood the play of the world. He may not have been efficient as to wield arms in battle.But took seva of serving water. He acted out oneness teaching of gurbani. As was not acting from a state of mind which had vikar of anger or revenge .

Everyone to a seva "jesi o Karaye" -as is how the same is arranged.


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

> I normally avoid talking about myself but let this be one exception. Disease is one kind of suffering one encounters. Long back I wanted to be in medical profession but in reality circumstances had put me in finance field. As from my school days I privately had been studying medical systems, psychology etc. So i started learning about alternative medicine. Ayurveda , nature therapy ,acupressure , magnetic therapy and so many. But found Homeopathy the best so started. Even had registration as a Doctor. Family and friends were coming for medicines .There were other references too. I found some diseases were gone soon some took time and some did not budge at all. People were in pain. So I kept up the learning and came to role of Mind in disease. Gurbani explains that Vikar have role in bringing about Dukh. So then started learning about about Mind-body medicine. Role of meditation in healing. Also as to how disease and other sufferings are a part of our world. The vikars are with us right from the time of birth. We have a personalty then and there . Is there a role of prior births. Gurbani explains ' janam janam ki mann ko mal lagi , kala hova sya ." meaning we have this affliction from prior births too. ( I suggest that you read the Book Soul's Plan by Robert Schwartz to know more about this and to have a better perspective on suffering in the world)



Interestingly 'Soul's plan' is categorised in Amazon as 



> Your Soul's Plan: Discovering the Real Meaning of the Life ...
> www.amazon.co.uk › ... › New Age › Occult › Reincarnation & Afterlife
> Your Soul's Plan (which was originally published under the title Courageous Souls: Do We Plan Our Life Challenges Before Birth?) explores the premise that we ...



new age>occult

your theory that Vikars are with us from birth is nothing more than a mishmash of Hindu and Christian philosophy. I think if my big sis were here now, she would be horrified by the above, because in your eyes, she handled it wrongly, she was absolutely against meditation and mumbling as a means of getting close to God



> At early stage itself there were some principles of action chosen by me. Of these one was not to follow any dera, baba etc. For this kept in mind guru's direction - "Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo " meaning what ever secrets are attributed in the name of Ram , Rahim ,Quran ,Puran etc were not to be followed. Next principle was to validate all external thought with gurbani's teachings.



secrets? what secrets? Sikhism is so simple the village idiot could understand the basics, it revolves around truth and truthful living.



> Gurbani views suffering as a medicine. Dukh has potential to become change agent. When do we become more spiritual. Do prayers.
> Vikars are a cause of so many problems in this world. The choices exercised by people have source in these. Vikars dominate our minds. These are overpowering. A person with big ego and in anger would only act and behave in anger. When these persons are in power so what happens is what we have been seeing in human history.



I am sorry to be quoting my big sis again, but to the end she suffered and she bore it with the biggest dose of Chardi Kala possible, I do not think she would agree that Gurbani views suffering as a medicine, again, this seems an Abrahamic view, rather than a Sikh one. 



> Mind is such that it is dominated by thought and feelings.When there is negative then there is a sequence of negative thoughts , judgments , rationalizations , justifications for the action. All these come from the subconscious mind. The store house of our beliefs ,memory and learning.
> We are not individuals but a group as well. We are affected by not only individual consciousness but by group consciousness as well. ( Here is where role of sadh sangat comes in. Guruji has made it a transformation agent as well).
> And when we have positive feelings and positive thoughts. The actions are accordingly. Gurbani changes the mind. Gurbani brings in our mind touch of Naam .Positive attracts more of positive. Only a positive mind is more nearer to Naam.



this is bordering on proselytising....



> I can only picture what Bhai Khanaya ji's stae of mind would be. A quite type of person who had been listening and knowing about gurbani. He understood about oneness. He understood the play of the world. He may not have been efficient as to wield arms in battle.But took seva of serving water. He acted out oneness teaching of gurbani. As was not acting from a state of mind which had vikar of anger or revenge .



maybe he just wanted to help people because he saw god in them, its a pretty simple concept


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## gur_meet (May 8, 2014)

I too have been associated with Narayanjot kaur ji ( she left with a brighter soul) and in correspondence. This was in another forum Universal Mind. We had long discussions. 
As to the points raised I submit :

Whats wrong in reading other literature. Even RM permits it. You are objecting to some thing without knowing about it.

Please read my words again. I have written "what ever secrets are attributed in the name of Ram , Rahim ,Quran ,Puran etc were not to be followed."'  When we read books and articles or hear other people  we have to be careful and not get influenced. Gurbani lays lot of emphasis on Vichar. This has also to be in the light of literature. 

Where does the connection with gurbani comes here. You are wrongly understanding these words.
I have not read any Christian literature, nor literature of any other religions. I have only books by Bhai Veer Sing, Bhai Raghubir Singh and other Sikh literature. I do read general books.

Please read gurbani. How much Gurbani talks about Kama ,krodh ,lobh , moh , Ahankar. 
Haume is separate. Are not these vikars.

What proselytising ???

Do I have to sit as a culprit in this forum with what ever being written misunderstood. Any writing being  shredded and misinterpreted.

I am a Sikh and this is Sikh forum. Also happen to be amritdhari. Is that wrong also.

Sorry.


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

You interpretation of Gurbani differs from mine, thats ok, we are all individuals, however, I object to simran being some sort of accepted bedrock of Sikhsim, in my view it is irrelevant, I also find the notion that we have lived before and that our illnesses in this life are in some way some sort of lesson or have some sort of meaning nothing sort of repulsive. It is new age occult stuff, as correctly categorised by Amazon...

However, your opinion is equally as important, there is just no reason to pass it off as 'the way', it is one way, not the only one.


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## gur_meet (May 8, 2014)

Christians and Muslims believe that there is no reincarnation. Whereas in all eastern religions it is an accepted position.

What can be said when you have a strong belief. I only know that,   whatever you say , you have been practicing Simran.Your post on Meeting God is an example. Even a vichar kept in mind is simran. In fact simran is incomplete without feeling and vichar being associated with it.

Of course just plain (_meaningless_) jap (repetition)  is not simran.


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

> Christians and Muslims believe that there is no reincarnation. Whereas in all eastern religions it is an accepted position.



almost all


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## Ishna (May 8, 2014)

Is anyone else slightly amused by the quasi Catholic vs Protestant thing going on lately?  Good works vs faith?  lol


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## chazSingh (May 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Interestingly 'Soul's plan' is categorised in Amazon as
> 
> 
> 
> ...



meditation is great....meditation on the life force that exists within you is even greater...and when you start to remember what you have forgotton then simran will be in motion...

Not sure what the 'mumbling' you refer to is though lol

you may not think pain and suffering is a medicine..but gurbani refers to it as such many times. Please support your views on sikhi with actual gurbani ji

god bless


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

> you may not think pain and suffering is a medicine..but gurbani refers to it as such many times. Please support your views on sikhi with actual gurbani ji



I think it would be easier for you to support your view that it does first dear Chazji, rather than me support that it does not....... especially as it does so many many times


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## chazSingh (May 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I think it would be easier for you to support your view that it does first dear Chazji, rather than me support that it does not....... especially as it does so many many times



Hi harry ji,

Will post some gurbani tomorow when I.m back at my computer. Posting from my phone at the moment.

the gist I get from gurbani is when we have pleasure we forget waheguru...then we may find ourself in the exact opposite and we cry out for waheguru...sometimes the suffering awakens us from our often complacent state during happiness...sometimes it makes us appreciate each precious second in a way that just experiencing happibess could not have done...

in the end the gurmuck realises both are required experiences...and in fact see's them as on and the same (both a gift). The gurmuck having had some experience of both seeks shelter in neither, and now has a new found vision...that of the unchanging, fearless, waheguru.

there was a guy on the radio a couple of months ago...he had been told he has a few months to live...yet in his interview he said its the best thing that ever happened to him...the disease awoke his consciousness...he described his life, his appreciation of everything in a way that hit me deep within...he was so happy. A moment of life lived in a truely awoken state.


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

let us start a new thread on it, I will await your post tomorrow on the thread, back to Naam


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## gur_meet (May 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I think it would be easier for you to support your view that it does first dear Chazji, rather than me support that it does not....... especially as it does so many many times



Here are quotes from SGGS ji that suffering ( Dukh) is medicine :

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
Dhukh Dhaaroo Sukh Rog Bhaeiaa Jaa Sukh Thaam N Hoee ||
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
Thoon Karathaa Karanaa Mai Naahee Jaa Ho Karee N Hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||

*ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ  :  ਅੰਗ ੪੬੯*SGGS 469

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
Naanak Sifathee Rathiaa Man Than Hariaa Hoe ||
O Nanak, imbued with the Lord's Praise, the mind and body blossom forth, rejuvenated.

ਦੁਖ ਕੀਆ ਅਗੀ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
Dhukh Keeaa Agee Maareeahi Bhee Dhukh Dhaaroo Hoe ||1||
  In the fire of pain, the mortals die; but pain is also the cure. ||1||

*ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ :  ਮ : ੧ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ  : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੦ SGGS 1240 *


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## ActsOfGod (May 8, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Your post is about Dukh in the world and does Naam induces one to be a change agent. To bring a difference.  Let us first with look at this aspect .
> 
> I normally avoid talking about myself but let this be one exception. Disease is one kind of suffering one encounters. Long back I wanted to be in medical profession but in reality circumstances had put me in finance field. As from my school days I privately had been studying medical systems, psychology etc. So i started learning about alternative medicine. Ayurveda , nature therapy ,acupressure ,  magnetic therapy and so many. But found Homeopathy the best so started. Even had registration as a Doctor. Family and friends were coming for medicines .There were other references too. I found some diseases were gone soon some took time and some did not budge at all. People were in pain. So I kept up the learning and came to role of Mind in disease. Gurbani explains that Vikar have role in bringing about Dukh. So then started learning about  about Mind-body medicine. Role of meditation in healing. Also as to how disease and other sufferings are a part of our world. The vikars are with us right from the time of birth. We have a personalty then and there . Is there a role of prior births. Gurbani explains ' janam janam ki mann ko  mal lagi , kala hova sya ." meaning we have this affliction from prior births too. ( _I suggest that you read the Book Soul's Plan by Robert Schwartz to know more about this and to have a better perspective on suffering in the world_)
> 
> ...



I agree.  Dukh may be from our prior karma, and whatever Dukh we experience in life is according to Vaheguru's Hukam:



> (2nd Pauri, Japji Sahib)
> By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.



There are truly diseases of the mind like ego, haumai, hankar, etc.  These are root causes of ailments which then can manifest in various physical forms.

Agree that the sadh sangat is where transformation happens.  It is a well known psychological axiom that a person will change according to the expectations of their peer group (i.e. "who you spend time with is who you become").  Guru Sahib has set up this transformation to happen to the individual by joining the sadh sangat.  It's perfect.

AoG


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

> Shalok, First Mehl:
> XXX
> XXX
> 
> ...



The trouble with relying on english translations is that you are relying on the translators interpretation of the shabad, also, one liners can be misleading so it is the terms of service that the full shabad be quoted, I have quoted with a quite bad translation of the teeka, however, even given the vagueness of the teeka in english, it is clear that it actually makes more sense than the translation itself. 

The translation itself, in my view, also fails the litmus test of Sikhism, because according to this quote, Sikhs should not indulge in any pleasure whatsoever, and should search out suffering, rather than, in my view, view both pain and pleasure with equal acceptance and as Hukam. 

Naam, in my view is this acceptance and ties in well with consonance and being in step with the universe, and ultimately aligning with Creation, nature and the order of the world.


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## Harry Haller (May 8, 2014)

> सलोक महला १ ॥
> Salok mėhlā 1.
> Shalok, First Mehl:
> xxx
> ...



if you read this in full, it is patently obvious this shabad is talking about the consequences of ones actions and how consequences are a good teacher, it has nothing to do with embracing pain or suffering, and certainly does not apply to those who are ill through no fault of their own, it is common sense to accept that you reap what you sow, the issue I have is with all suffering being a medicine, as this includes rape victims, cancer victims, those caught in natural disasters, etc etc. 

The latter is, in my view, Vedic, the former Sikh.


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## ActsOfGod (May 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> if you read this in full, it is patently obvious this shabad is talking about the consequences of ones actions and how consequences are a good teacher, it has nothing to do with embracing pain or suffering, and certainly does not apply to those who are ill through no fault of their own, it is common sense to accept that you reap what you sow, the issue I have is with all suffering being a medicine, as this includes rape victims, cancer victims, those caught in natural disasters, etc etc.
> 
> The latter is, in my view, Vedic, the former Sikh.



When things are going great in his life (everything's successful), a man tends to party.  When things don't go so well, then man tends to ponder.  It is when he stops to ponder that he starts to realize things.

Thus, the analogy of suffering being a medicine.

It is certainly not in Sikh philosophy to desire to be miserable and to seek out suffering.  Rather, to bear it with the same equipoise as one should bear pleasure, i.e. both pain and pleasure are illusions of the mind.  As a Sikh, recognize this illusion and transcend it, don't be caught in it.  (This ability of the mind to make this discernment out of seemingly non-events has been proven and demonstrated by modern therapy techniques).

So, if everything is in our mind, what is real?

And that's when our path in Sikhi begins.

AoG


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## Sherdil (May 8, 2014)

> सलोक महला १ ॥
> Salok mėhlā 1.
> Shalok, First Mehl:
> xxx
> ...



In Gurbani and in Sufi literature, the pain that is being discussed results from separation from the Husband Lord. We are all soul-brides that have been separated from our Husband Lord. When we are far from the divine, we feel pain. When we come close to the divine, our pain is relieved.


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## chazSingh (May 9, 2014)

ActsOfGod said:


> When things are going great in his life (everything's successful), a man tends to party.  When things don't go so well, then man tends to ponder.  It is when he stops to ponder that he starts to realize things.
> 
> Thus, the analogy of suffering being a medicine.
> 
> ...



yes, no one should seek pain..

and like you said...and i can agree myself also, that it is through difficult times mentally physically that i did the most pondering...which started of everything more me...now i see the harder times as a gift, a blessing.

the joy now is that i have a new found link/connection/100% beleif based on experience that Waheguru is forever with me...so whether i come into a seemingly good or bad experience of life...i know ii have Him with me...and i meditate/contemplate on Him through both suffering and pleasure


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## chazSingh (May 9, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> In Gurbani and in Sufi literature, the pain that is being discussed results from separation from the Husband Lord. We are all soul-brides that have been separated from our Husband Lord. When we are far from the divine, we feel pain. When we come close to the divine, our pain is relieved.



when we are far from the divine, we are entangled in life with the 5 thieves...that exists in our mental state...

they are the root cause of a huge proportion of our suffering....which manifests in our physical lives.


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## gur_meet (May 9, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> yes, no one should seek pain..
> 
> and like you said...and i can agree myself also, that it is through difficult times mentally physically that i did the most pondering...which started of everything more me...now i see the harder times as a gift, a blessing.
> 
> the joy now is that i have a new found link/connection/100% beleif based on experience that Waheguru is forever with me...so whether i come into a seemingly good or bad experience of life...i know ii have Him with me...and i meditate/contemplate on Him through both suffering and pleasure



Dukh as medicine. It brings  acceptance and humility when one surrenders before HIM. . The  acceptance that all is HIS Hukam. In whole creation Hukam is prevailing.The feeling of HIS presence.


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## Luckysingh (May 9, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> yes, no one should seek pain..
> 
> and like you said...and i can agree myself also, that it is through difficult times mentally physically that i did the most pondering...which started of everything more me...now* i see the harder times as a gift, a blessing*.
> 
> the joy now is that i have a new found link/connection/100% beleif based on experience that Waheguru is forever with me...so whether i come into a seemingly good or bad experience of life...i know ii have Him with me...and i meditate/contemplate on Him through both suffering and pleasure


 
The gift, the blesssing.... it's all what this _'experience'_ is.
HE is the creator and not the creation...... In the sense that the creation is the ever changing experience of him. The Lord God doesn't change himself, only the experiences of his creation change.

Once you learn to accept every dukh and sukh as experience, then you begin to stay grounded in the _more stable_ neutral position.
Again, practicing this stability comes easier with practice of _inner_ stability and stillness......_simran_!

Once a sikh truly offers his head to guru and surrenders his ego, then you can throw anything in the disguises of pain,dukh,sukh and joy.... but it shall not affect him.
What happens at this stage is that he awakens to the  huge difference in _Divine love_ and the_ worldy love_ that we know or are aware of amongst loved ones.

You only have to experience a hint of this Divine love to begin to understand that the love we thought we knew about is actually a small fraction, miles and miles away from the True divine love


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## Ishna (May 11, 2014)

This excellent article by Karminder Singh Dhillon explains very nicely Naam and Simran:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/41762-simran-and-sikhi-karminder-singh-dhillon.html 

Please read and share your thoughts on the article with specific reference to Naam.


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## Sherdil (May 11, 2014)

> This essay, because it is discussing Him is Simran both in the act of writing and reading. Needless to say, both activities are done with the eyes open and lights switched on. Yet the best and Guru-recommended method of remembering God and to contemplate on Him is to read, listen, sing, discuss, understand, help others understand, and to walk the path as laid out in Gurbani. The GGGS has a verse on page 296 : ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ Meaning Naam is the virtues of God (ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ), and these virtues are found in the reading, listening and singing (ਧੁਨਿ) of Gurbani. Another verse on page 973 makes it clear: ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਗਾਈਐ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ meaning the singing ਗਾਈਐ of Gods virtues with application of the mind ਮਨਿ ਗਾਈਐ is Simran. And that such Simran (remembrance) comes from the True Guru (Gurbani). The second point therefore is that the basis of Naam Simran in Sikhi is Gurbani that is contained within the 1430 pages. The third point relating to Naam Simran can be found in another verse on GGS page 1222. ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਇਹੁ ਸਾਧ ਕੋ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥ Meaning that the Kirtan of Gurbani is a beautiful method (ਆਚਾਰੁ) of undertaking the Simran of God. The fourth point can be found in a verse of Guru Arjun on page 262 of the GGS: ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸਾਧ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ॥ Meaning, to join the sadh sangat and to do the things that are undertaken in a sangat (listen, sing, discuss, understand, appreciate Gods’ virtues) is the Simran of the Master. The fifth point concerns concentration – what or where to place one’s mind ਧਿਆਨ while performing Simran. Because Simran in Sikhi is Gurbani based, and every single verse of Gurbani contains deep meaning, the understanding of which requires full concentration, the mind has to focus on the Gurbani words themselves and not some external object. Guru Nanak says on page 1075 of the GGS: ਕਲਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਪਰਧਾਨਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਲਾਇ ਧਿਆਨਾ ॥ Meaning: within the Jaap of the Gurmukh, Kirtan is of highest order (ਕੀਰਤਨ ਪਰਧਾਨਾ) and the concentration (ਧਿਆਨਾ) must remain within the Kirtan itself.



I like this. We have been doing Naam Simran on this thread all along.


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## Luckysingh (May 11, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I like this. We have been doing Naam Simran on this thread all along.


 

How exactly has that been done and achieved ????


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## Sherdil (May 11, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> How exactly has that been done and achieved ????



Lucky ji, according to the paragraph I quoted from Dr. Dhillon's piece, the first step is to open your eyes and switch on the lights. Ishna ji provided us with a link. I think the answer to your question will manifest itself after you click it. lol


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## Luckysingh (May 12, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Lucky ji, according to the paragraph I quoted from Dr. Dhillon's piece, the first step is to open your eyes and switch on the lights. Ishna ji provided us with a link. I think the answer to your question will manifest itself after you click it. lol


 
Nope....sorry,.....I can't see it ??

which shabad in particular highlights and backs up the point you made ?


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## Harry Haller (May 12, 2014)

> Nope....sorry,.....I can't see it ??



probably those big Elvis sunglasses lol


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## arshdeep88 (May 12, 2014)

The only thing that clicks in my mind about Naam is Remembrance of all the creation around,being able to see the beauty of that creation and accepting their existence ,somewhere able to connect with it ,living in accordance with the truth with Awareness,rather ill say a state of mind when you are thankful for many small things in your life rather than complaining. That's how i relate to Naam. I have no idea how Guru-bani relates to it . Might be right might be wrong,just my view.


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## Ishna (May 12, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Nope....sorry,.....I can't see it ??
> 
> which shabad in particular highlights and backs up the point you made ?


 
The quote Sherdil Ji posted brings together various parts of Gurbani illustrating the idea that reading, talking about, singing of the qualities of Naam is simran; rememberance.  They are all activities that bring out awareness to Naam, from where we can conduct ourselves in truth, which is the point of it all, imho.


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

Ishna said:


> The quote Sherdil Ji posted brings together various parts of Gurbani illustrating the idea that reading, talking about, singing of the qualities of Naam is simran; rememberance.  They are all activities that bring out awareness to Naam, from where we can conduct ourselves in truth, which is the point of it all, imho.



everything you mention and everything you say is great, and i would think of it as naam simran...i enjoy doing as much of that as possible...it really helps us focus our attention to the shabad that came from waheguru ji.

But, Gurbani also says to look within you...do not seek god on the outside, to seek him within you..

it would be good to hear the sangats opinions of how they would follow gurbani on such direction?

...

मः ३ ॥
Mėhlā 3.
Third Mehl:

ਸੋ  ਭਗਉਤੀ  ਜ  ਭਗਵੰਤੈ  ਜਾਣੈ  ॥
सो भगउती जो भगवंतै जाणै ॥
So bẖag▫uṯī jo bẖagvanṯai jāṇai.

One who knows the Benevolent Lord God is the true devotee of Bhagaautee.
ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਆਪੁ  ਪਛਾਣੈ  ॥
गुर परसादी आपु पछाणै ॥
Gur parsādī āp pacẖẖāṇai.

By Guru's Grace, he is self-realized.
ਧਾਵਤੁ  ਰਾਖੈ  ਇਕਤੁ  ਘਰਿ  ਆਣੈ  ॥
धावतु राखै इकतु घरि आणै ॥
Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖai ikaṯ gẖar āṇai.

He restrains his wandering mind, and brings it back to its own home within the self.
ਜੀਵਤੁ  ਮਰੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਵਖਾਣੈ  ॥
जीवतु मरै हरि नामु वखाणै ॥
Jīvaṯ marai har nām vakẖāṇai.

He remains dead while yet alive, and he chants the Name of the Lord.
ਐਸਾ  ਭਗਉਤੀ  ਉਤਮੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
ऐसा भगउती उतमु होइ ॥
Aisā bẖag▫uṯī uṯam ho▫e.

Such a Bhagaautee is most exalted.
ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਚਿ  ਸਮਾਵੈ  ਸੋਇ  ॥੨॥
नानक सचि समावै सोइ ॥२॥
Nānak sacẖ samāvai so▫e. ||2||

O Nanak, he merges into the True One. ||2||


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## Sherdil (May 12, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> But, Gurbani also says to look within you...do not seek god on the outside, to seek him within you..
> 
> it would be good to hear the sangats opinions of how they would follow gurbani on such direction?



Dr. Dhillon states that "Naam" does not literally mean name. It means the collective qualities of the divine. To read, contemplate, sing and discuss those qualities is Naam Simran. Therefore, reading and understanding Gurbani is Naam Simran. It requires full concentration and contemplation on what you are reciting.

If finding God within you was as simple as saying a single word repetitively, to induce a meditative trance, or to keep your mind focused on your perception of God, then there would be no need for 1430 pages of Gurbani.

Dr. Dhillon concludes his piece with the following:



> My final response: if spiritual beings are going to keep doing what they have been doing all along, there would be no need for our Gurus, their Gurbani and Sikhi even. We could have just kept throwing water at the sun then. We could have just kept dipping ourselves in the countless rivers to cleanse ourselves. And we could have just kept watering the pippal trees. Irony has to have its limits.


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## Ishna (May 12, 2014)

Chazji

I think it's possible to look within at the same time as interacting with the world.  To hold that sense of connection in your heart, while you go about the world, feeling Naam within you and sensing it all around at the same time.

I'm not suggesting one or the other is better; I'm saying there is value in a holistic Sikhi where silent meditation is just one part amidst a whole lot of other parts, like seva and vichaar.  They're all important.

Coming back to Naam specifically, I do like how Karminder Singh Dhillon characterises Naam as virtues and qualities of the divine.  Personally I'm inclined to think of Naam more abstractly, as being a reality.


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Dr. Dhillon states that "Naam" does not literally mean name. It means the collective qualities of the divine. To read, contemplate, sing and discuss those qualities is Naam Simran. Therefore, reading and understanding Gurbani is Naam Simran. It requires full concentration and contemplation on what you are reciting.
> 
> If finding God within you was as simple as saying a single word repetitively, to induce a meditative trance, or to keep your mind focused on your perception of God, then there would be no need for 1430 pages of Gurbani.
> 
> Dr. Dhillon concludes his piece with the following:



from memory i can;t recall anyone saying that repeating one word only is required?? or is the only thing that one must try to do?

of course naam is not a name in the sense that me and you have names...naam is beyond anything we can ever imagine or comprehend.

but at the same time...if your friends have not met you in years, just mentioning your name once may bring a whole flood of 'rememberence' of your attributes, characteristics, personality, moments you shared, emotions you shared' etc etc....

all of that through one word 'your name''

in the same way...when people jap, meditate or whatever on shabads like 'Waheguru' or 'satnaam' it opens a flood of emotion, contemplation and focus, and directed thought, and love for something they feel deep within...

and that my friend is far beyond some mindless 'parroting' that i'm sure many people also do...

i do this with many shabads, as many as i can remember, as much as time permits...they all came from Waheguru, and all have the power to unite us with him...

so do all you can, life is short...we don;t know how many breaths we have left...

*::deleted single tuk, in English only, with no page number... Chazji you know better than that!::*

live honestly, truthfully, care for one another because we are here in this world to inspire each other and uplift each other...
but we also need to go within and seek what lies literally within our hearts, and this will bring forth naturally and intuitively all of gods attributes also..


God Bless


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Chazji
> 
> I think it's possible to look within at the same time as interacting with the world.  To hold that sense of connection in your heart, while you go about the world, feeling Naam within you and sensing it all around at the same time.
> 
> ...



Where is everyone getting this idea that looking within means to stop interacting with the world...

as soon as meditation or something is mentioned everyone starts to think that we are sat in a dark room 24/7 uttering a word over and over...no interaction with anyone, no seva no anything...

lol

all is good...


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## Ishna (May 12, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> Where is everyone getting this idea that looking within means to stop interacting with the world...
> 
> as soon as meditation or something is mentioned everyone starts to think that we are sat in a dark room 24/7 uttering a word over and over...
> 
> lol


 
Because you haven't given me any examples of anything else.


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Because you haven't given me any examples of anything else.




the Simran (reading japji, listening to kirtan, meditating on shabad) i do in the early hours is just 2 hours of the whole day...the rest is all interaction, contemplation, re-evaluation (with a focus always on God), etc etc with my fellow human beings...and a Cat that my wife has somehow adopted... 

of course, you don't need to do what i'm doing, just follow your heart and see where it takes you...

use all the tools we have. in the end gurbani makes it very clear that the light of god will manifest within you and it is within yourself that you will become aware of Waheguru Ji and all his creations.

God Bless you ji


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

http://dailysikhupdates.com/2014/04/27/power-of-simran-a-sikh-whose-inspiring-many/

another parroting Sikh.... or is he onto something?


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## Sherdil (May 12, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> but at the same time...if your friends have not met you in years, just mentioning your name once may bring a whole flood of 'rememberence' of your attributes, characteristics, personality, moments you shared, emotions you shared' etc etc....
> 
> all of that through one word 'your name''
> 
> ...



I agree that evoking the name "Waheguru" brings peace and focuses your mind on the divine. One feels immense love and devotion when they say their Lord's name. It has the ability to uplift spirits and calm the troubled mind. Like a song stuck in your head, the mind continues saying "Waheguru" even when the lips have grown tired. Waheguru remains the focus throughout the day. 

That's all good, but the name itself doesn't lead to realization of Akaal. Realization comes from studying, reading, and discussing the attributes of the divine. One does not obtain a PhD in philosophy by merely repeating "Socrates". 

You say "Sat Naam" can be used instead of "Waheguru" to evoke the same feelings. What you are still describing is akin to taking a drug or a placebo. "Sat Naam" Simran  will not bring forth Sat any more than Pizza Simran will bring forth pizza. Regardless of how much love and devotion you have when you say the word "pizza", you still have to call the pizzeria, so they can deliver it to your house. 

Guru ji advocates repeating the name "Har Har", but without gurbani to provide context, the word "Har Har" has no meaning. In fact, the meaning would change from one person to the next. This is why Guru ji has given 1430 pages worth of context. 

I wonder how many people doing "Waheguru" Simran understand what Waheguru is, beyond the warm and fuzzy feeling they get inside when they hear this name. I believe the Gurus came to give us knowledge, not just an emotional experience. 

Indeed, "Waheguru" Simran takes your mind off of the five thieves, but it does not lead to an understanding of what the 5 thieves are and why they are bad. Without understanding, we become like those three monkeys: See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil. In other words, saturate your senses so the bad stuff can't get in. In this sense, it is a leash for a dog. What's even better is a dog that doesn't need a leash. 

I'm not against Waheguru Simran. I'm against using it as a means to enlightenment. It is nothing more than a tool used to quiet the mind. No gyaan is attained from this endeavor.


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## Luckysingh (May 13, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I agree that *evoking the name "Waheguru*" brings peace and focuses your mind on the divine. One feels immense love and devotion when they say their Lord's name. It has the ability to uplift spirits and calm the troubled mind. Like a song stuck in your head, the mind continues saying "Waheguru" even when the lips have grown tired. Waheguru remains the focus throughout the day.


 
who said evoking the name and who said anything about using your lips ?
 Did I not mention somewhere that the jap repetition is just the initial stage to settle and ''steady'' the mind. Does gurbani not say that you must steady your mind ? OR does it say do whatever tickles your fancy and you feel is right ?



> That's all good, *but the name itself doesn't lead to realization of Akaal*. _Realization comes from studying, reading, and discussing the attributes of the divine._ One does not obtain a PhD in philosophy by merely repeating "Socrates".


 
Before sikhi, it was only the brahmin caste that had the privileges of learning religious scriptures and texts.
Only they had the right to be educated, since at that time education meant = well learned = righteous people who understand the texts because of caste birthrights.
So, you are telling me that sikhi is for the learned individual only.
What did bhagat dhana read or many of the other enlightened ones in bani ?
Isn't sikhi about just putting your heart and mind in focus to the Truth or does the hardworking low caste sewage cleaner have to live in the hope of rebirth to be able to read and write, so that eventually he may be gurmukh.
If someone cannot read or write or doesn't even have basic 'social' communicating skills, then they have no hope whatsoever of being gurmukh sikh ?



> You say "Sat Naam" can be used instead of "Waheguru" to evoke the *same feelings*. What you are still describing is akin to taking a drug or a placebo. "Sat Naam" Simran will not bring forth Sat any more than Pizza Simran will bring forth pizza. Regardless of how much love and devotion you have when you say the word "pizza", you still have to call the pizzeria, so they can deliver it to your house.


 
Do you think that saying the word with all your love is naam simran ?
Saying 'waheguru' is the same as saying 'pizza'
so, a druggie saying 'crack' and sex addict saying 'pus-sy' is simran ?

Read my post in other thread about maya and your thoughts being maya and how to move out of them.



> Guru ji advocates repeating the name "Har Har", but without gurbani to provide context, *the word "Har Har" has no meaning*. In fact, the meaning would change from one person to the next. This is why Guru ji has given 1430 pages worth of context.
> 
> I wonder how many people doing "Waheguru" Simran understand what Waheguru is, beyond the warm and fuzzy feeling they get inside when they hear this name. I believe the Gurus came to give us knowledge, not just an emotional experience.


 
what warm and fuzzy feeling ?
You clearly have No idea what the term ''unspoken word' or 'akath katha' is in gurbani.
HINT- you can read all the texts you want but you will never know unless you do the practical.



> Indeed, "Waheguru" Simran takes your mind off of the five thieves, *but it does not lead to an understanding of what the 5 thieves are and why they are bad*. Without understanding, we become like those three monkeys: See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil. In other words, saturate your senses so the bad stuff can't get in. In this sense, it is a leash for a dog. What's even better is a dog that doesn't need a leash.
> 
> I'm not against Waheguru Simran. *I'm against using it as a means to enlightenment*. *It is nothing more than a tool* used to quiet the mind.*No gyaan is attained from this endeavor*.


 
Yes, you are against waheguru simran.
I couldn't care less and wouldn't respond if you said _''I don't understand it properly because I haven't practiced it properly enough_''.. but you are like the other few on here continuously bashing and picking parts of sikhi that suit your own mayaic world.

Simran cannot teach you how to deal with 5 thieves is what you are saying above.
What part of you falls prey to the 5 thieves ?
Is it your eyes, arms, head, nose...or is it your MIND ?
Then how are you going to start _''mann jitey jagg jeet''_ ?
How will you begin to conquer and strengthen this mind..?
Maybe you are going to tell me that you do that by instructing and disciplining your brain to do so !
OR that you don't need to do that as the education, reading, discussing will take care of that.

Who told you that No gyan is attained and where exactly in gurbani does it say that ?
You actually think that '_'knowledge_'' is all about what you train your brain to do.
Then what is this mystery gyan obtained from akath katha (the unspoken speech) ?
If you spend more time ridiculing it than attempting it practically, then you shall never know.


You guys start a thread about 'Naam' but don't want to hear anything about naam simran or even it's explanation that is given in Anand sahib of _where_ and with_ whom_ this naam resides in.


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## Harry Haller (May 13, 2014)

> Before sikhi, it was only the brahmin caste that had the privileges of learning religious scriptures and texts.
> Only they had the right to be educated, since at that time education meant = well learned = righteous people who understand the texts because of caste birthrights.
> So, you are telling me that sikhi is for the learned individual only.



Luckyji your arguing against your own argument, your inference is that for the individual who cannot study, repetition is a good alternative...



> Isn't sikhi about just putting your heart and mind in focus to the Truth or does the hardworking low caste sewage cleaner have to live in the hope of rebirth to be able to read and write, so that eventually he may be gurmukh.
> If someone cannot read or write or doesn't even have basic 'social' communicating skills, then they have no hope whatsoever of being gurmukh sikh ?



The fundamentals of Sikhism are contained in the first ten lines, simple enough even that someone like me understands them, any hardworking low caste sewage worker living in the hope of rebirth should probably embrace Hinduism, as in Sikhism the idea is to find the answers in the one life, and there are plenty Gurmukh Sikhs who do not even know they are, just like there are plenty of non Gurmukh Sikhs who are certain they are such.



> Do you think that saying the word with all your love is naam simran ?
> Saying 'waheguru' is the same as saying 'pizza'
> so, a druggie saying 'crack' and sex addict saying 'pus-sy' is simran ?



absolutely! all classic signs of addiction, whether it be to sex, crack, or that fuzzy feeling that you think is a connection, but is just in fact the end result of Vedic meditation techniques. You need it, you live for it, it becomes home, first base, that special place where you feel happy and at peace, settled, to some its crack, to some its sex, to some its sitting in dark rooms at some ungodly hour mumbling.



> Yes, you are against waheguru simran.



pretty much, just as I am against certain types of music, its just not for me, however, I do respect an individuals desire to do it, I do, however, resent having it shoved down my throat and made to feel I am incomplete Sikh because I do not believe in it. 



> I couldn't care less and wouldn't respond if you said ''I don't understand it properly because I haven't practiced it properly enough''.. but you are like the other few on here continuously bashing and picking parts of sikhi that suit your own mayaic world.



Well I have tried it, and I didn't like it, I felt it was highly addictive, an almost hypnotic like state, a bit like being stoned, going deep within yourself, but not finding anything, just embracing what you feel is the perfect mental state, but is nothing more than mind gymnastics,. 



> Simran cannot teach you how to deal with 5 thieves is what you are saying above.



precisely



> What part of you falls prey to the 5 thieves ?



every cell of your being



> Is it your eyes, arms, head, nose...or is it your MIND ?



it is every cell 



> Then how are you going to start ''mann jitey jagg jeet'' ?



discipline?



> How will you begin to conquer and strengthen this mind..?



by dropping the bone



> Maybe you are going to tell me that you do that by instructing and disciplining your brain to do so !



seems a good start



> You guys start a thread about 'Naam' but don't want to hear anything about naam simran or even it's explanation that is given in Anand sahib of where and with whom this naam resides in.



I don't mind hearing all, but I feel I have to speak out when personal opinion becomes undisputed fact, what you are saying is your opinion and yours only, it is not fact, it is not explanation, it is just your opinion, just like what I am writing is mine,


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## Luckysingh (May 13, 2014)

It may be an opinion, but you tell me what is not an opinion ?

You guys asking about ''Naam'' and we have clearly tried to tell you that you have to experience it to be able to understand it.
You refuse to listen because you have your own version and opinions of what sikhi is.
It's human nature that when we become accustomed to some ideas and beliefs that we refuse to broaden our horizons on those issues any further because of fear that it may rock our boats.
However, we only have this fear because the boat is already rocking and we are just about managing to steer it.


as for you finding simran hypnotic and addictive, I don't know what you were doing but it wasn't naam simran by any means !


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## Ishna (May 13, 2014)

This 'us vs them' mentatilty is starting to give me the irrits! Aren't we community exploring these topics together??? That kind of "we have tried explaining to you people" attitude is NOT helping anything.

Lucky and Harry Jis: We all experience this thing we can't even define which is 'Naam' individually. Some experience it by meditating quietly, others experience it in their every day lives, most people I assume are somewhere in the middle!

This is PRECISELY the rabbit hole I alluded to in the beginning of this thread. Discussions spiral down the rabbit hole by the repetative fixation on Naam simran meditation TO THE EXCLUSION of all else. Every thread is hijacked in a similar fashion. 

It is an obvious problem, and we should all take care to AVOID such discussion in so many threads, not because it's not relevant or important or meaningful or useful, but because it's shutting the discussions down.

Can we PLEASE discuss the appropriate topic, which is actually trying to DEFINE NAAM! Everyone has had ample opportunity to talk about Naam simran and the experience of Naam by quiet meditation; does anyone have anything ELSE to say about Naam?


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## chazSingh (May 13, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> That's all good, but the name itself doesn't lead to realization of Akaal. Realization comes from studying, reading, and discussing the attributes of the divine. One does not obtain a PhD in philosophy by merely repeating "Socrates".


 
Gurbani says even an illiterate can find God lol



> You say "Sat Naam" can be used instead of "Waheguru" to evoke the same feelings. What you are still describing is akin to taking a drug or a placebo. "Sat Naam" Simran will not bring forth Sat any more than Pizza Simran will bring forth pizza. Regardless of how much love and devotion you have when you say the word "pizza", you still have to call the pizzeria, so they can deliver it to your house.


comparing words, vibration that came from the source, to words created by the minds of people... think i have finally heard it all 




> Guru ji advocates repeating the name "Har Har", but without gurbani to provide context, the word "Har Har" has no meaning. In fact, the meaning would change from one person to the next. This is why Guru ji has given 1430 pages worth of context.


i don't think anyone has said to stop reading and contemplating the whole of gurbani....

It ignited my yearning one monday afternoon whilst i was sat at work many years ago...it drew me in, got me contemplating and asking questions...seeking answers from it....its amazing... 

your assuming anyone that does simran, just bypasses everything...




> I wonder how many people doing "Waheguru" Simran understand what Waheguru is, beyond the warm and fuzzy feeling they get inside when they hear this name. I believe the Gurus came to give us knowledge, not just an emotional experience.


what do you understand about waheguru from your studies...

i learnt that waheguru is deep within your heart...to stop looking for Him on the outside...that he is right there inside you...

*Maybe just Maybe some of the people who are having this warm fuzzy feeling 'INSIDE' are experiencing to some degree the Waheguru they seek who is also 'INSIDE them'*

lol

no amount of study can replace that....no words can describe it...maybe that's why they just describe it as warm fuzzy feelin...




> ndeed, "Waheguru" Simran takes your mind off of the five thieves, but it does not lead to an understanding of what the 5 thieves are and why they are bad. Without understanding, we become like those three monkeys: See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil. In other words, saturate your senses so the bad stuff can't get in. In this sense, it is a leash for a dog. What's even better is a dog that doesn't need a leash.


it goes beyond taking your mind of the 5 thieves...it allows you to regain control of your mind so that you don;t have the negative thoughts in the first place... 

of course you are right, everyone learns through life experiences that the 5 thieves are negative if we allow them to control us...mind can be controlled through life experiences also...but in my humble opinion i believe complete awakening from the clutches of the thieves occurs through gurpursaad/grace



> I'm not against Waheguru Simran. I'm against using it as a means to enlightenment. It is nothing more than a tool used to quiet the mind. No gyaan is attained from this endeavor.


no gian gained from quieting the wandering mind that is influenced by the 5 thieves? ...

_::delete - see full shabad below::_
_http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1478_

*Lets not reduce the importance and Significance of such beautiful bani*
*::So lets quote full shabads, with Gurmukhi and English, and Panna number!-Ishna:*



> ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> Āsā mėhlā 5.
> Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
> 
> ...


 
Panna 381


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## chazSingh (May 13, 2014)

Ishna said:


> This 'us vs them' mentatilty is starting to give me the irrits! Aren't we community exploring these topics together??? That kind of "we have tried explaining to you people" attitude is NOT helping anything.
> 
> Lucky and Harry Jis: We all experience this thing we can't even define which is 'Naam' individually. Some experience it by meditating quietly, others experience it in their every day lives, most people I assume are somewhere in the middle!
> 
> ...



apologies if i've come across that way... 

i think Naam is like the rays of the Sun that penetrate through everything...

the essence of God that flows through all of his creation

I take from Gurbani and the accounts of the Guru Ji's, that it can be experienced, and enjoyed..but impossible to describe in any real terms...as hard as steel

upon experiencing it, i believe all fear within my mind, or worries, anxieties, hate, anger, Ego, fear of death will be dissolved away.

Upon experiencing it, i believe love, compassion, forgiveness, patience, perseverance, truth, fearlessness, courage and many of Waheguru's attributes will come shining forth through my very being...not bound by any limits or egotistical selfish conditions...TRUE LOVE...a true servant of waheguru and his creation

i believe not only i can experience it, i believe we can all experience it...

The more we experience it, the greater the heaven we will create on this earth for us and for future generations

Gurbani says the earth, moon and stars, the treas the oceans are all meditating on his Naam...so we should look after everything and each other

I believe my Ego and corrupted mind has prevented me to realize this...and has put me into a rotten sleep and limited existance i call my current life...

Is it time to wake up?...time to regain control and experience naam and kick my Ego in the ....

God Bless


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## chazSingh (May 13, 2014)

ਆਸਾ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕਰਮ  ਕਰਤੂਤਿ  ਬੇਲਿ  ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ  ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਫਲੁ  ਹੂਆ  ॥
करम करतूति बेलि बिसथारी राम नामु फलु हूआ ॥
Karam karṯūṯ bel bisthārī rām nām fal hū▫ā.
The vine of good actions and character has spread out, and it bears the fruit of the Lord's Name.

ਤਿਸੁ  ਰੂਪੁ  ਨ  ਰੇਖ  ਅਨਾਹਦੁ  ਵਾਜੈ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ  ਕੀਆ  ॥੧॥
तिसु रूपु न रेख अनाहदु वाजै सबदु निरंजनि कीआ ॥१॥
Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1||
The Name has no form or  outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word  of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||

ਕਰੇ  ਵਖਿਆਣੁ  ਜਾਣੈ  ਜੇ  ਕੋਈ  ॥
करे वखिआणु जाणै जे कोई ॥
Kare vakẖi▫āṇ jāṇai je ko▫ī.
One can speak on this only when he knows it.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਪੀਵੈ  ਸੋਈ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
अम्रितु पीवै सोई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Amriṯ pīvai so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He alone drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਪੀਆ  ਸੇ  ਮਸਤ  ਭਏ  ਹੈ  ਤੂਟੇ  ਬੰਧਨ  ਫਾਹੇ  ॥
जिन्ह पीआ से मसत भए है तूटे बंधन फाहे ॥
Jinĥ pī▫ā se masaṯ bẖa▫e hai ṯūte banḏẖan fāhe.
Those who drink it in are enraptured; their bonds and shackles are cut away.

ਜੋਤੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਸਮਾਣੀ  ਭੀਤਰਿ  ਤਾ  ਛੋਡੇ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਕੇ  ਲਾਹੇ  ॥੨॥
जोती जोति समाणी भीतरि ता छोडे माइआ के लाहे ॥२॥
Joṯī joṯ samāṇī bẖīṯar ṯā cẖẖode mā▫i▫ā ke lāhe. ||2||
When one's light blends into the Divine Light, then the desire for Maya is ended. ||2||

ਸਰਬ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਰੂਪੁ  ਤੇਰਾ  ਦੇਖਿਆ  ਸਗਲ  ਭਵਨ  ਤੇਰੀ  ਮਾਇਆ  ॥
सरब जोति रूपु तेरा देखिआ सगल भवन तेरी माइआ ॥
Sarab joṯ rūp ṯerā ḏekẖi▫ā sagal bẖavan ṯerī mā▫i▫ā.
Among all lights, I behold Your Form; all the worlds are Your Maya.

ਰਾਰੈ  ਰੂਪਿ  ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ  ਬੈਠਾ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਕਰੇ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਛਾਇਆ  ॥੩॥
रारै रूपि निरालमु बैठा नदरि करे विचि छाइआ ॥३॥
Rārai rūp nirālam baiṯẖā naḏar kare vicẖ cẖẖā▫i▫ā. ||3||
Among the tumults and  forms, He sits in serene detachment; He bestows His Glance of Grace upon  those who are engrossed in the illusion. ||3||

ਬੀਣਾ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਵਜਾਵੈ  ਜੋਗੀ  ਦਰਸਨਿ  ਰੂਪਿ  ਅਪਾਰਾ  ॥
बीणा सबदु वजावै जोगी दरसनि रूपि अपारा ॥
Bīṇā sabaḏ vajāvai jogī ḏarsan rūp apārā.
The Yogi who plays on the instrument of the Shabad gains the Blessed Vision of the Infinitely Beautiful Lord.

ਸਬਦਿ  ਅਨਾਹਦਿ  ਸੋ  ਸਹੁ  ਰਾਤਾ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਕਹੈ  ਵਿਚਾਰਾ  ॥੪॥੮॥
सबदि अनाहदि सो सहु राता नानकु कहै विचारा ॥४॥८॥
Sabaḏ anāhaḏ so saho rāṯā Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||4||8||
He, the Lord, is immersed in the Unstruck Shabad of the Word, says Nanak, the humble and meek. ||4||8||


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## Sherdil (May 13, 2014)

> ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥
> 
> तिसु रूपु न रेख अनाहदु वाजै सबदु निरंजनि कीआ ॥१॥
> Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1||
> The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||



What does this part mean?


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## Luckysingh (May 13, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> What does this part mean?


 
*ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥ *
*Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1|| *
*The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||* 

It means the Naam has no shape or form in sargun terms.
But the anhad sound current which can be heard only by the inner subtle ears, carries this very naam.

Next part......
_'Through the word of the shabad, the immaculate Lord is revealed''_
is to say that the anahad sound current + the naam that is emebedded in it(or carried on it's sound wave) = the word of the shabad.


_The lord is revealed ONLY through the shabad or if the shabad is present at the forefront._
This is quite important and is mentioned in many other shabads.
There are a number of messages in the shabad above, but one of them is to differentiate between yogic practice and gurmat.

futher down is the line-
*ਬੀਣਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ *
*Bīṇā sabaḏ vajāvai jogī ḏarsan rūp apārā. *
*The Yogi who plays on the instrument of the Shabad gains the Blessed Vision of the Infinitely Beautiful Lord*

In terms of differentiating, yoga practice is meditating on what they term the 'anhad' but they have no shabad or gurmantar. 
Therefore, since _word of_ _shabad = anhad +naam_, they won't experience the naam without the shabad.
All 3 factors are only present if the word of shabad is present.
_''playing on the instrument of shabd' or shabad vajavai_ means to sing the word as per continuous plucking of instrument string.......
So, the line above is saying that the yogi that practices with singing this word of shabad(gurmantar), will obtain the darshan of the Lord.

This also tells us that anyone can get the darshan of the Lord providing they travel forward with the word of shabad.


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## Sherdil (May 13, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> *ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥ *
> *Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1|| *
> *The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||*
> 
> ...



I thought the Shabadh was everywhere. I think I see your viewpoint, but what if we look at it like this:

Tis rup na rekh = Whose form is not outlined

Anahad vajai shabadh = limitless vibrating Shabadh

niranjan kia = made it pure?

(Naam) whose form is not outlined, vibrates as the limitless Shabadh that makes it pure. 

What is the it? Is it the mind? 

I just want to clarify this tuk first, before we move on. Thanks.


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## chazSingh (May 14, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I thought the Shabadh was everywhere. I think I see your viewpoint, but what if we look at it like this:
> 
> Tis rup na rekh = Whose form is not outlined
> 
> ...



i think your interpretation also sound fine...
i would say it is your mind, but also your whole being (physical, mind and spiritual (soul, subtle body...whatever you want to call it)

The Shabad is everywhere  Gurbani says easiest place to experience it is within yourself...

anahad naad will reveal itself to you within yourself...

and that is why people block out the outside world for a short amount of time in the early hours to concentrate single mindedly with deep though and contemplation on the Shabad...they are almost training their minds to stop with the wandering and hopefully with Guru Ji's grace the anhad naad is felt and experienced and it draws your consciousness towards Waheguru Ji.

A wandering mind that keeps making you thinking of sex, money, egotistical things, worries, anxieties etc etc gives your being no chance at all to align with the inner shabad, attention needs to be extremely focused like an arrow.

As you become purer, your daily actions become purer, and you then become a more trustworthy, helpful, loving, compassionate, fearless member of society...


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## gur_meet (May 14, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> I thought the Shabadh was everywhere. I think I see your viewpoint, but what if we look at it like this:
> 
> Tis rup na rekh = Whose form is not outlined
> 
> ...



Here it is to be seen first what 'niranjan" means. Does it really mean "pure" ?  When we look at other Shabads like one on panna 730 :

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਡੰਡੈ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਸਮ ਚੜਾਈਐ
Jog N Khinthhaa Jog N Ddanddai Jog N Bhasam Charraaeeai ||
Yoga is not the patched coat, Yoga is not the walking stick. Yoga is not smearing the body with ashes.

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਮੁੰਦੀ ਮੂੰਡਿ ਮੁਡਾਇਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਈਐ
Jog N Mundhee Moondd Muddaaeiai Jog N Sinn(g)ee Vaaeeai ||
Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||1||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||1||

When we look at certain other translations/tikkas there from the pungtee:

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ 
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||1||

In _Anjan_ living _Niranjan_ are explained with variations.  One explains theses as remaining pure in the midst of impurity.  Niranjan is also has been explained as " being not attached to maya" whereas anjan is to be attached to maya.

However the shabad is heard when one's awareness is inward.

Another question to be pondered is - Is it the mind that becomes pure ?


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## chazSingh (May 14, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Here it is to be seen first what 'niranjan" means. Does it really mean "pure" ?  When we look at other Shabads like one on panna 730 :<snip>



Thank you ji for your very clear explanation of the variances...

i think the mind does becomes pure in the sense that its wandering is reduced, and we (soul) use our mind in daily tasks and to aid in our inner path....at the moment it doesn't give us a true seconds stillness to experience the truth, our true being and reality.

There is a shabad (i will try to find it) that states "let the five passions come under your control and let the mind become your walking stick"

so the mind is our tool which we can use, but not in its monkey state running around engrossed in Maya...it's pull is so strong, we follow like slaves

I think the purity is already there...we are pure by nature...it is just our mind which tells us otherwise and which drags our attention/consciousness soul around like a slave the majority of times.


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## Sherdil (May 14, 2014)

Let's not forget the first tuk also:



> ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ ॥
> करम करतूति बेलि बिसथारी राम नामु फलु हूआ ॥
> Karam karṯūṯ bel bisthārī rām nām fal hū▫ā.



Karam kartut bel bisthari = The vine of karmic deeds spreads out.

Ram nam fal hua = The Lord's name blossoms forth.

So, if we add the first two tuks together, we get:



> The vine of karmic deeds spreads out, and the Lord's name blossoms forth.
> 
> The name's form is not outlined. It vibrates as the limitless shabadh, making the mind pure.



Is there a difference between unblemished and pure? I chose the word pure because I thought it meant "without contamination".

I do think the tuk is referring to the mind. Naam is already all around us, vibrating as the shabadh. The only place it has yet to blossom forth is in the mind. 

So if Naam blossoms forth on the vine of karmic deeds, then isn't it our actions that cultivate Naam within our minds?


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## gur_meet (May 14, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Let's not forget the first tuk also:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree Pure could be the chosen word . Pure signifies a state purity. Meaning a pure state of being "jyote swaroope".

But when we look at the word "Sachiar" as in the first pauri of japji Sahib then there also we have to call it a pure state as well. _Sach_ means true as contrasted with with a state where there is false. Maya creates the illusion,attachments etc which prevents us from knowing Sach.
Sach is the presence of Naam.

In the above pungtees being discussed. The fruit of karmic deeds is being referred to. We gurbani explains that  Simran is the highest form of Karmic deed. The Anhad Shabad appearance is the result of simran.
 The  next pungtee states that ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥ Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1|| meaning that when there is Anahad Shabad resounding the Sikh is also made Niranjan.

Is the meaning of Niranjan here same as Sachiar ?

But from what is seen in Sikhs who reach this stage when Anhad Shabad is being heard there are still further stages.
I have come across mediators with other religious background where they are hearing the Celistial Sound ( Anhad Shabad). With them certain experiences which Sikhs have are missing in clear sense . One is Hazuri. Another is regular communion with Shabad. The difference comes because of being confused with respect to form.

So this stage it seems  is not a final one of purity - meaning jyote swarope. The missing part being Haume - the separate self identity. 
The five vikars or five doots afflict the mind. When Naam enters these go.
The Haume also affects the mind for sure. When haume is not there then these is stage of Jyote with Jyote. 
What happens to the mind here ? 
When we look at our structure then it is Soul  - mind - physical Body.
Where is haume here. Attached with Soul or part of Mind ?


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## gur_meet (May 16, 2014)

Such a vichar is relevant in understanding Naam. As Naam is revealed through simran.
  Here is an example from the Shabad quoted earlier in part. The full Shabad is as under.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik Oankaar Sathigur Prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਡੰਡੈ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਸਮ ਚੜਾਈਐ ॥
Jog N Khinthhaa Jog N Ddanddai Jog N Bhasam Charraaeeai ||
Yoga is not the patched coat, Yoga is not the walking stick. Yoga is not smearing the body with ashes.

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਮੁੰਦੀ ਮੂੰਡਿ ਮੁਡਾਇਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਈਐ ॥ 
Jog N Mundhee Moondd Muddaaeiai Jog N Sinn(g)ee Vaaeeai ||
Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn.
*
ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥*
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||1||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||1||

ਗਲੀ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
Galee Jog N Hoee ||
By mere words, Yoga is not attained.

*ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
Eaek Dhrisatt Kar Samasar Jaanai Jogee Keheeai Soee ||1|| Rehaao ||
One who looks upon all with a single eye, and knows them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. ||1||Pause||

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਮੜੀ ਮਸਾਣੀ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ 
Jog N Baahar Marree Masaanee Jog N Thaarree Laaeeai ||
Yoga is not wandering to the tombs of the dead; Yoga is not sitting in trances.

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਦੇਸਿ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ਭਵਿਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਈਐ ॥ 
Jog N Dhaes Dhisanthar Bhaviai Jog N Theerathh Naaeeai ||
Yoga is not wandering through foreign lands; Yoga is not bathing at sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ *ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ *॥੨॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||2||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||2||

*ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਤਾ ਸਹਸਾ ਤੂਟੈ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਈਐ ॥*
Sathigur Bhaettai Thaa Sehasaa Thoottai Dhhaavath Varaj Rehaaeeai ||
Meeting with the True Guru, doubt is dispelled, and the wandering mind is restrained.

*ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਪਰਚਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥*
Nijhar Jharai Sehaj Dhhun Laagai Ghar Hee Parachaa Paaeeai ||
Nectar rains down, celestial music resounds, and deep within, wisdom is obtained.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ *ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ *॥੩॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||3||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||3||

ਨਾਨਕ *ਜੀਵਤਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ *ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥
Naanak Jeevathiaa Mar Reheeai Aisaa Jog Kamaaeeai ||
O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive - practice such a Yoga.

*ਵਾਜੇ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਜੈ ਤਉ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥*
Vaajae Baajhahu Sinn(g)ee Vaajai Tho Nirabho Padh Paaeeai ||
When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ *ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਉ ਪਾਈਐ *॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Tho Paaeeai ||4||1||8||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||4||1||8||

*ਸੂਹੀ ਮ :  ੧ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ :  ਅੰਗ ੭੩੦ ਪੰ . ੧੮*

In this Shabad guidance has two directions. One what is not to be done and the other what is to be done. One pungtee is *ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ *Eaek Dhrisatt Kar Samasar Jaanai Jogee Keheeai Soee ||1|| Rehaao || 

Here the guidance advice is to make the gaze (how_ one see’s and perceives others)_ as of oneness knowing them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. When this guidance is accepted and practiced as simran in daily life while perceiving others the issue comes is that what we see are individuals who are afflicted with the five. They express anger , some are not fair , some were bad in treating you , so much negative behavior. There are others who were kind , helpful and your loved ones. Practicing  “ samsar dristi “- looking equally at all then requires lifting above the illusion created by maya. If one sees others as souls with a personality then the perception changes. The Soul is jyote swaroope – pure and personality is what the mind-body is living in the current life on earth.  Personality is not the real person  but a play during life. A soul may be having so many personalities from previous lives as part of sub conscious. ( Gurbani does speak of rebirths)  All are one and from one source. This brings the shift . The forgiving and loving then enters you gaze. All are seen in different light. This is emphasized as Simran.  When there is HIS_ kirpa_ the vision then comes nearer to expressing “samsara drisht “. This is also a feeling of Nirvair – an expression of Naam. 

Naam is revealed and felt through simran. _Vichar_ is part of Simran.
Simran is to keep up living the Gurbani again and again despite pulls of maya in daily life.


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## chazSingh (May 16, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Such a vichar is relevant in understanding Naam. As Naam is revealed through simran.
> Here is an example from the Shabad quoted earlier in part. The full Shabad is as under.
> <snip>



very nice ji,

i believe as above that daily simran (looking at each other as one, seeing god in all) is a very good practice. One can realise very quickly though how difficult it is...we think we are getting somewhere then someone says something a little nasty to us and we get upset and angry and quickly we have dropped to the level of the Ego...

With his grace the more we try to see the God, Soul behind the drama and personality the quicker we can start to forgive, offer support, serve, become resilient etc etc...

Together with Amrit Vela Simran, i am very sure Waheguru Will keep glancing his grace and living purely throughout life becomes a natural occurrance

God Bless Ji


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## Luckysingh (May 21, 2014)

Until NAAM is _pargat_, it is useless and offensive for any 'diligent studying scholar' to unknowingly try to explain !

You want to know what naam is, then there is one way to find out ?


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## chazSingh (May 21, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Until NAAM is _pargat_, it is useless and offensive for any 'diligent studying scholar' to unknowingly try to explain !
> 
> You want to know what naam is, then there is one way to find out ?



Well Said Ji,

Look at Kabir Ji's description of his immense love for Waheguru...intoxicated in love, crazy in love...insanely in love...

How He describes not sitting around studying and getting into debates....not understanding all the debates...
but actually experiencing the Naam and love that Waheguru has graced him with.

bilaaval ||
bidhiaa n paro baadh nehee jaano ||
  har gun kathhath sunath bouraano ||1||
maerae baabaa mai bouraa sabh khalak saiaanee mai bouraa ||
mai bigariou bigarai math aouraa ||1|| rehaao ||
aap n bouraa raam keeou bouraa ||
  sathigur jaar gaeiou bhram moraa ||2||
mai bigarae apanee math khoee ||
maerae bharam bhoolo math koee ||3||
so bouraa jo aap n pashhaanai ||
aap pashhaanai th eaekai jaanai ||4||
  abehi n maathaa s kabahu n maathaa ||
kehi kabeer raamai ra(n)g raathaa ||5||2||



Bilaaval:
I do not read books of knowledge, and I do not understand the debates.
  I have gone insane, chanting and hearing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||
O my father, I have gone insane; the whole world is sane, and I am insane.
I am spoiled; let no one else be spoiled like me. ||1||Pause||
  I have not made myself go insane - the Lord made me go insane.
The True Guru has burnt away my doubt. ||2||
I am spoiled; I have lost my intellect.
Let no one go astray in doubt like me. ||3||
  He alone is insane, who does not understand himself.
When he understands himself, then he knows the One Lord. ||4||
One who is not intoxicated with the Lord now, shall never be intoxicated.
  Says Kabeer, I am imbued with the Lord's Love. ||5||2||



http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=&ShabadID=3205&Format=2


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## japjisahib04 (May 21, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Until NAAM is _pargat_, it is useless and offensive for any 'diligent studying scholar' to unknowingly try to explain !
> 
> You want to know what naam is, then there is one way to find out ?


 Gurbani at several places has given anologies of a farmer and I feel a simple farmer of any religion is more wiser than any scholar and common people. If any brahmgiani, karni waleh sant baba jee or shriman 108 tells him to chant millions of time any mantar or read Sukhmani sahib to convert his crops from rice to apple he will laugh. He understand the language of nature and can properly reads the laws of nature. He knows irrespective of chanting any number his crops cannot be converted and or even damaged crops cannot be repaired. We are not uneducated but by understanding gurbani atleast we can reach to his state of mind to achieve our achemy of spiritual level. 

Gurbani at several places guides us how to connect with God. Unlike other major religions of the world who emphasises on physical body and traps us into the fear of punishment of afterdeath  whereas gurbani directs us towards manh and says, 'ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji1125.12 - Chattering of Boss mind is appeased and satisfied by imbibing the divine message of nijhghar,the minds becomes the yogi and feels the pains of separation and all desires of fire is stilled in the mind or once I imbibe or tune my mat with paradigm of divine traits then it is automatically, 'anand bhiya meri maeye satguru mai paeya and no more consigning to different juenes. Very simple.


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## chazSingh (May 21, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Gurbani at several places has given anologies of a farmer and I feel a simple farmer of any religion is more wiser than any scholar and common people. If any brahmgiani, karni waleh sant baba jee or shriman 108 tells him to chant millions of time any mantar or read Sukhmani sahib to convert his crops from rice to apple he will laugh. He understand the language of nature and can properly reads the laws of nature. He knows irrespective of chanting any number his crops cannot be converted and or even damaged crops cannot be repaired. We are not uneducated but by understanding gurbani atleast we can reach to his state of mind to achieve our achemy of spiritual level.
> 
> Gurbani at several places guides us how to connect with God. Unlike other major religions of the world who emphasises on physical body and traps us into the fear of punishment of afterdeath  whereas gurbani directs us towards manh and says, 'ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji1125.12 - Chattering of Boss mind is appeased and satisfied by imbibing the divine message of nijhghar,the minds becomes the yogi and feels the pains of separation and all desires of fire is stilled in the mind or once I imbibe or tune my mat with paradigm of divine traits then it is automatically, 'anand bhiya meri maeye satguru mai paeya. Very simple.



Anyone that wants to use gurbani for any kind of physical gain and doesn't have the thirst and inner pull to seek Waheguru Ji will find very little value in any kind of repetition where the focus is not on waheguru Ji Himself.

For the ones who yearn day and night, Gurbani both to understand in an intellectual sense in order to set the compass in the right direction and as a vibration from the source of all existence is the most powerful tool we have to connect us to our inner shabad.

When i play it in my house, it changes the mood instantly...
when i read it at amrit vela, it focuses me in on my destination
when i need guidance it talks to me and sets me along in the right direction
when i meditate on it (in silence during the early hours where my consciousness and GurBani can intermingle with no distraction) it pulls my Surt into my very being and assists me to tune into my inner shabad that is waiting to guide my soul back home...

There is nothing else in this Universe that has this power...i truly with all my heart believe this 100%

God Bless Ji


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## Harry Haller (May 22, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> Anyone that wants to use gurbani for any kind of physical gain and doesn't have the thirst and inner pull to seek Waheguru Ji will find very little value in any kind of repetition where the focus is not on waheguru Ji Himself.
> 
> For the ones who yearn day and night, Gurbani both to understand in an intellectual sense in order to set the compass in the right direction and as a vibration from the source of all existence is the most powerful tool we have to connect us to our inner shabad.
> 
> ...



Let us be pragmatic for a moment, my argument is simple, there are some of us that see Naam as a something to be in tune with in order to be a better husband, son, father, brother, friend, ie, it is this Naam that gives us the strength and energy to keep giving to Creation, to connect to the whole of Creation in order to give to Creation. 

It is interesting to note that for all the talk of love and peace, the meditation lobby will always be concerned with the self, they meditate for the self, the result is for the self, the grand end result is for the self, its self self self, which in my view is completely against Sikhism, the peace and feelings of bliss that Sikhism talks about, in my view, is to do with giving, sharing, feeling what others are feeling, and empathising, nurturing, etc. 

To demonstrate this view, I find the thread set up to celebrate the life of our dear friend and sister quite conspicuous by the absence of any comment from our meditator friends...., what use are all these lovely feelings if they cannot be used to assist Creation?, What use is all the bliss in the world if it cannot be shared, be used to comfort, to empathise?


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## chazSingh (May 22, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Let us be pragmatic for a moment, my argument is simple, there are some of us that see Naam as a something to be in tune with in order to be a better husband, son, father, brother, friend, ie, it is this Naam that gives us the strength and energy to keep giving to Creation, to connect to the whole of Creation in order to give to Creation.
> 
> It is interesting to note that for all the talk of love and peace, the meditation lobby will always be concerned with the self, they meditate for the self, the result is for the self, the grand end result is for the self, its self self self, which in my view is completely against Sikhism, the peace and feelings of bliss that Sikhism talks about, in my view, is to do with giving, sharing, feeling what others are feeling, and empathising, nurturing, etc.
> 
> ...



what seems to be your problem is that when you hear the word 'SELF' you take it to mean something 'SELFISH'...to benefit oneself only with no care for anyone else

and on that note you have COMPLETELY missed the point of everything...everything.

TO understand the SELF is the to understand...to KNOW who you really are...where you came from and what place you have amongst the universe and the creator....to KNOW in the deepest Core what creation is...and by KNOWING who YOU ARE....you then know who everyone else is....AND CAN SERVE everyone 100% knowing all is God rather than just 'believeing' or saying to yourself 'all is one' but know KNOWING it truely

you have completely missed the point my friend...

to know who YOU REALLY ARE (not the body that burns away) but the permanent reality that exists within that Body and beyond...through that KNOWLEDGE you will KNOW who your creator is...and actually see GOD working through everything and anything..

*knowing the self, does not mean to be selfish lol*

you say 'knowing the self' has nothing to do with sikhi or is completely against it...but in the same breath you completely ignore the gurbani laid our in front of you in an earlier post:
*
He alone is insane, who does not understand himself.
When he understands himself, then he knows the One Lord. ||4||
One who is not intoxicated with the Lord now, shall never be intoxicated.
  Says Kabeer, I am imbued with the Lord's Love. ||5||2||

*i mean seriously harry ji


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## Harry Haller (May 22, 2014)

> what seems to be your problem is that when you hear the word 'SELF' you take it to mean something 'SELFISH'...to benefit oneself only with no care for anyone else


 
 I do not follow you around Chazji, so I have no knowledge of how you conduct yourself in your life, or what you give back to Creation, all I have to base my musings on is how you interact on this forum. On this forum, we have had a loss recently, my point remains, the thread set up for us to remember her, to comfort not only each other but also her family, only proves my point, maybe you guys were too busy tripping the light fantastic to contribute. 



> and on that note you have COMPLETELY missed the point of everything...everything.


 
 that's a lot of everything's... maybe I just do not agree with it



> TO understand the SELF is the to understand...to KNOW who you really are...where you came from and what place you have amongst the universe and the creator....to KNOW in the deepest Core what creation is...and by KNOWING who YOU ARE....you then know who everyone else is....AND CAN SERVE everyone 100% knowing all is God rather than just 'believeing' or saying to yourself 'all is one' but know KNOWING it truely


 
 I agree, I have never said otherwise, however, there is a difference between understanding the self, and becoming obsessed by the self.



> you have completely missed the point my friend...


 
 not really, for all the talk, my point is what good does it do, you guys cannot even be bothered to take a minute out to write a few lines in memory of the person that practically shaped this forum. 



> to know who YOU REALLY ARE (not the body that burns away) but the permanent reality that exists within that Body and beyond...through that KNOWLEDGE you will KNOW who your creator is...and actually see GOD working through everything and anything..


 
 actually eh? I will actually see that, well forgive me if I disagree, and just what is permanent reality anyway?



> *knowing the self, does not mean to be selfish*




 maybe but being obsessed by the self is another thing



> you say 'knowing the self' has nothing to do with sikhi or is completely against it...but in the same breath you completely ignore the gurbani laid our in front of you in an earlier post:


 
 do point out where I said this, I am in complete agreement that knowing the self is one of the most important things a person can do, it is this obsession with this Vedic type spirituality that I find bemusing*

*


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## chazSingh (May 22, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I do not follow you around Chazji, so I have no knowledge of how you conduct yourself in your life, or what you give back to Creation, all I have to base my musings on is how you interact on this forum. On this forum, we have had a loss recently, my point remains, the thread set up for us to remember her, to comfort not only each other but also her family, only proves my point, maybe you guys were too busy tripping the light fantastic to contribute.



one doesn't always need to do something in front of others...if i say a silent prayer in my mind...or in an ardaas, that is good enough for me...and i'm sure those prayers will reach her...




> I agree, I have never said otherwise, however, there is a difference between understanding the self, and becoming obsessed by the self.


A huge chunk of Gurbani is urging us to seek this...i guess it must be pretty important in a world that is engulfed by the Ego...look around the Ego is dominating the world and it's actions...

if by knowing thy self, Ego can be watered down...and the light of God shine forth and all His attributes into this world through thought, actions and words, then let me and others be obsessed...like Kabir ji says in that shabad 'insane'.





> not really, for all the talk, my point is what good does it do, you guys cannot even be bothered to take a minute out to write a few lines in memory of the person that practically shaped this forum.


this is just a good example of judging...like i've seen many times at a funeral..."oh look at Her/Him, He/She is not even crying...He/She doesnt even look upset...He/She doesnt care"

its all judgement without knowing any true facts...without knowing what the person really feels, or has done, or has thought...




> actually eh? I will actually see that, well forgive me if I disagree, and just what is permanent reality anyway?


I can't tell you this...you must find out yourself...i don't even know what this is...but i'm going to find out 






> do point out where I said this, I am in complete agreement that knowing the self is one of the most important things a person can do, it is this obsession with this Vedic type spirituality that I find bemusing


in all my life i don;t think i have ever looked into what this 'Vedic' type of spirituality is...


There's a whole lot of mentioning about things that sound mystic, spiritual in Gurbani, about looking within yourself, inner vision, tenth gate, having the shabad guide your consciousness, your body containing all secrets...

it's up to you to seek what this all is and seeing if Guru Granth becomes true within yourself..

I have no idea if that seems Vedic because i have no idea what Vedic stuff is....all i know is Gurbani is on to something because what it says starts to become true within your own being..


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## Luckysingh (May 22, 2014)

Judging is all done by ego.
Only God is the true judge and knower- the deeper inner knower...'_antarjami'_

When the judging happens, it is the _thoughts and intentions_ that are judged not the display of actions.

Knowing the SELF moves you out of Ego.
Ego is the display of actions, the judging, the ridiculing of other actions.



> I agree, I have never said otherwise, however, there is a difference between understanding the self, and becoming obsessed by the self.


 
Understanding the self is getting to know the true you, the true self, the Truth.
Becoming obsessed about anything is to drive your Ego.
How can understanding the true self be an obsession ?
Is it your true self that sees this or the ego ?


as for Vedic, I haven't got a clue what this has anything to do with finding the truth and true self.
It's just a play of words by anti-hindu brigade that is under the impression that anything hindu is all about ritual and blind practice.
Does being a hindu mean you will never find the truth ?..................Well, I have no right to judge or say as I don't know the ins/outs of this vast and diverse faith. But some of the people/preachers leading the show may be false but I can't judge the scriptures based on that and neither do I have the time to examine them.
We have the Guru, which some of us are dividing in our practices, then are we going to judge the Guru with our ignorance ?


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## japjisahib04 (May 22, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Judging is all done by ego.
> Only God is the true judge and knower- the deeper inner knower...'_antarjami'_
> 
> When the judging happens, it is the _thoughts and intentions_ We have the Guru, which some of us are dividing in our practices, then are we going to judge the Guru with our ignorance ?


 Is the guru in human form or sabd guru that we are dividing in our practice?

I am only wondering when the whole show is play of manh and guru sahib through out gurbani is directing manh to listen, 'ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ,  ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, Oh manh listen the inner voice - the sabd guru where is the confusion that we are trying to feed the manh - waheguru to still it when guru sahib is telling to utilize it for betterness of society, eve otherwise manh cannot be stilled, 'chupai chup n hoveyee irrespective of millions of times of uttering.

We perhaps have not researched properly that Guru's teachings is exclusively different and advance from other world religions as 'sabh uppar nanak ka thakhur' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.779.12 and we should be proud of it but unfortunately our psedo  preachers/scholar are interpreting gurbani on the base of ancient notion without contemplating.  Let us first know what is mind and whether mind is part of God's creation or is it our own creation. Gurbani tells us, 'eh mann shakti eh mann seo eh man panch tatt ko jeo Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 342.5 it clearly indicate that mind is not the creation of God but is collections of our thought process and LIVE on five elements and survives in our body so long as five elements are ALIVE thus keeps on chattering. Therefore, logically so long as five elements are alive, mind cannot come into quietitude and stillness or stop inner chatter or flickering. Let us make this point clear once for all. Guru sahib in japjisahib also explains, 'jor na raaj maal manm shor' the mind cannot be brought to stillness even with the force of emphire and wealth.Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.6.

Now the second question is why do we need to bring the mind to stillness. We know very well that if something is surviving in any body, then depending upon the requirements, values and enviornnment around it mind/inner chattering is built and thus mind/inner chatting is not created by God. What gurbani tells us to replace this chattering with divine message.  Our Guru realized the power of mind, thus directed taking us beyond decimating mind, thus instead we make useless attempt to bring mind to stillness, sell it to satguru by stating, 'mann baichai satugur kai pass tis sevak kai karaj raas' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2014)

t





> o know who YOU REALLY ARE (not the body that burns away) but the permanent reality that exists within that Body and beyond...through that KNOWLEDGE you will KNOW who your creator is...and actually see GOD working through everything and anything..





> actually eh? I will actually see that, well forgive me if I disagree, and just what is permanent reality anyway?





> I can't tell you this...you must find out yourself...i don't even know what this is...but i'm going to find out



can I take it then that your first quote in all its definitiveness is actually rubbish, as you yourself have no idea what you are talking about, by your own admission. 



> in all my life i don;t think i have ever looked into what this 'Vedic' type of spirituality is...



Allow me to enlighten you, as normally, speaking for myself, I tend to use words and phrases I am familiar with.

If you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu
If you are a Sikh be a good Sikh, 

For those that feel the need to take facets of both religions, I am not sure how one goes about being a good Hindu/Sikh, 

Vedic Spirituality is the spiritual connection as defined and utilised by Hindus, if you look at a picture of Shiva meditating on a mountain top, I would class that as Vedic Spirituality.

If however, you look at a picture of Bhai Kanhaiya helping wounded Muslim soldiers, that, to me anyway, and it is only my opinion, is an example of Sikh spirituality. 



> There's a whole lot of mentioning about things that sound mystic, spiritual in Gurbani, about looking within yourself, inner vision, tenth gate, having the shabad guide your consciousness, your body containing all secrets...



it is either being mocked, or it is the result of badly translated Bani. 



> t's up to you to seek what this all is and seeing if Guru Granth becomes true within yourself..



Oh Im fine, we are all doing this in our own way, if you guys wish to connect by meditating that is up to you, but please don't try and pass it off as the way, the only way, that is all I object to. 



> Judging is all done by ego.
> Only God is the true judge and knower- the deeper inner knower...'antarjami'
> 
> When the judging happens, it is the thoughts and intentions that are judged not the display of actions.



Pray do tell when this judging happens? Do we have a judgement day like the Muslims and the Christians? Goody, I always thought plain old Sikhism was a bit boring what with the lack of bells and whistles, and according to you, more definitive statements, thoughts and intentions are judged not actions, oh well, I am clearly living my life wrong, I should be watching my thoughts in case the spaghetti god reads my thoughts and punishes me! Personally, I think NK was on to something when she just deleted this rubbish, it was certainly easier and less time consuming than having to sit here and question it, but I personally do not want a single young person reading this forum leaving, thinking its ok to do what you want, provided you do not think it...



> Knowing the SELF moves you out of Ego.
> Ego is the display of actions, the judging, the ridiculing of other actions.



Do tell me what you call watching a group of Hindus cup water to the sun god, and then turning around and cupping water to your fields many miles away? Do tell me where you draw the line between ego and counter argument?



> as for Vedic, I haven't got a clue what this has anything to do with finding the truth and true self.
> It's just a play of words by anti-hindu brigade that is under the impression that anything hindu is all about ritual and blind practice.



I have never ever seen Hinduism as anything other than a fine religion, and I resent your intimation that I am anti Hindu. What I am is anti mixing religions, I have no doubt you can find Mukti in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc etc, I also have no doubt you will not find Mukti if you just take the interesting bits from each and form your own religion. 

To bring this all back to the subject in hand, Naam is defined in Wikki as 



> Nāma is the Sanskrit for "name". Spiritually, it is the principal method or tool of meditation, which is meant to unite the soul with the Supreme Soul.
> 
> It is believed that God existed before the creation of the universe. The name of God is therefore beyond the language structure created by mankind. The Nām meaning the name is the internal rhythm, the internal sound that a man experiences, the true name of God, and thus ultimate Japa, as it is called in Hinduism, or Jaap in Sikhism.



so to that end, if you are a Hindu,  you are correct, as is most of what you are writing, my argument is that in Sikhism Naam is something different, it is more of a connection, a very physical connection with Creation, rather than a spiritual connection of soul uniting.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (May 23, 2014)

harry haller said:


> What I am is anti mixing religions, I have no doubt you can find Mukti in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc etc, I also have no doubt you will not find Mukti if you just take the interesting bits from each and form your own religion.



A brilliant statement.

Please let me add that it also doesn't work if you take the parts of any one religion that you like and ignore the parts you don't like.


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Is the guru in human form or sabd guru that we are dividing in our practice?
> 
> I am only wondering when the whole show is play of manh and guru sahib through out gurbani is directing manh to listen, 'ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, Oh manh listen the inner voice -
> the sabd guru where is the confusion that we are trying to feed the manh - waheguru to still it when guru sahib is telling to utilize it for betterness of society, eve otherwise manh cannot be stilled, 'chupai chup n hoveyee irrespective of millions of times of uttering.



Please explain HOW and Where it is saying to NOT still your mind ??



> We perhaps have not researched properly that Guru's teachings is exclusively different and advance from other world religions as 'sabh uppar nanak ka thakhur' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.779.12 and we should be proud of it but unfortunately our psedo preachers/scholar are interpreting gurbani on the base of ancient notion without contemplating. Let us first know what is mind and whether mind is part of God's creation or is it our own creation.
> Gurbani tells us, 'eh mann shakti eh mann seo eh man panch tatt ko jeo *Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 342.5*
> it clearly indicate that mind is* not the creation of God* but is collections of our thought process and LIVE on *five elements* and survives in our body so long as five elements are ALIVE thus keeps on chattering.
> Therefore, logically so long as five elements are alive, mind cannot come into quietitude and stillness or stop inner chatter or flickering.
> Let us make this point clear once for all.



Please show me where in the full shabad it says the above?
I will kindly help you here and lay out the essentials.
You can by all means point out where I am wrong and going against gurbani, because I'm gonna tell you where I think so !


_ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਕਤੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਉ ॥ _
_Ih man sakṯī ih man sī▫o._
_This mind is Shakti; this mind is Shiva._ 

in rest of gurbani, shiva is reference to matter/the sargun.
Shakti is reference to consciousness/power/nirgun manifestation.
However, saying that Mind is BOTH shiva and shakti, yet we can't see this Mind physically.... then How can that be ??.... how can you say Shiva ???
Guruji... nicely answers in the next line which you have sadly taken in the completely wrong direction......

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ko jī▫o. 
This mind is the life of the five elements.

So, he answers and says this.. But it is a much deeper and extensive answer and completly no where near to your interpretation.
Summing briefly... ALL Physical creation was created from 5 elements.
But Gurbani also says there is the nirgun/formless and subtle/sukam creations which we can't see like the Mind within us.
But what are all these nirgun and subtle manifestations made of in order to survive in maya ???
ANSwer-.. They still have the subtle forms of 5 elements.
Gurbani talks quite clearly about these as well.

So, this particular line is actually saying.''The Mind is also the life of these 5 elements whilst it sustains itself in maya creation''

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲੇ ਜਉ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਹੈ ॥ 
Ih man le ja▫o unman rahai.
When this mind is channeled, and guided to enlightenment, 

ਤਉ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਤੈ ਕਹੈ ॥੩੩॥
Ŧa▫o ṯīn lok kī bāṯai kahai. ||33|| 
it can describe the secrets of the three worlds. ||33||  




> Guru sahib in japjisahib also explains, 'jor na raaj maal manm shor' the mind cannot be brought to stillness even with the force of emphire and wealth.Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.6



ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥
Jor na rāj māl man sor.
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.

It is saying nothing about ''mind cannot be be stilled''
_'Man sor_'' is using your mind to do the talking or make the noise,-which is why translation says _'occult mental powers'_..... as that is what these mind manipulator ridi sidi occults do.
Please elaborate and explain if I have missed or can't see something ?



> Now the second question is why do we need to bring the mind to stillness. We know very well that if something is surviving in any body, then depending upon the requirements, values and enviornnment around it mind/inner chattering is built and thus mind/inner chatting is not created by God.
> What gurbani tells us to replace this chattering with divine message.



Please explain how do you replace chattering, without eradicating the thoughts ?
Gurbani says in a few places that the Mind is like a BIRD and it will just wander in 10 directions, This same wandering is your mind going through all it's internal chitter chatter.
The ONLY way to stop the wandering is what Gurbani itself says _'mann nu takhona' _or 'Still the Mind'

Like yourself, I shall quote the 1-liner references here but only to show you so that you may quite freely pick and choose any one to discuss further......(these are references to discuss further and prove me wrong!)
I have not had the time myself to look at them in depth, BUT please, please... enlighten me with any one that you find that has some message that only the '_Sakat' or faithless cynic _STILLS the Mind.
OR that one is Manmukh compared to gurmukh who Stills Mind.
OR even, any one that has the message that you gave above

Page 170, Line 19
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਖਿਨੁ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਦਹ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਚਲਿ ਚਲਿ ਹਾਢੇ ॥
Ih manū▫ā kẖin na tikai baho rangī ḏah ḏah ḏis cẖal cẖal hādẖe.
This mind does not hold still, even for an instant. Distracted by all sorts of distractions, it wanders around aimlessly in the ten directions

Page 232, 
ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥
Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖai ṯẖāk rahā▫e.
He controls, and restrains, and holds still the wandering mind

Page 656, Line 9
ਸੰਤਹੁ ਮਨ ਪਵਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਬਨਿਆ ॥
Sanṯahu man pavnai sukẖ bani▫ā.
O Saints, my windy mind has now become peaceful and still

Page 789, Line 12
ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਾਵਦਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
Ḏah ḏis ih man ḏẖāvḏā gur ṯẖāk rahā▫i▫ā.
The mind runs around in the ten directions; the Guru holds it still

Page 1022, Line 17
ਧਾਵਤ ਰਾਖੇ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖe ṯẖāk rahā▫i▫ā.
He quiets and holds his wandering mind still

Page 1068, Line 8
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥
Gur kai sabaḏ marai man māre ha▫umai jā▫e samā▫i▫ā. ||5||
He dies in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and conquers his mind; stilling his egotism, he merges in the Lord. ||5||



> Our Guru realized the power of mind, thus directed taking us beyond decimating mind, thus i*nstead we make useless attempt to bring mind to stillness,* sell it to satguru by stating, 'mann baichai satugur kai pass tis sevak kai karaj raas' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



I thought it was forum rules to not give your own interpretation without full shabad.
Your gurmukhi and punjabi is way more advanced than my self taught efforts, but I cannot in the world see how you make the statement above ?
very poor 'made in china' quality !!!!!!

I will save you some effort and give the shabad below.....
Again, show me how Guruji is calling stilling the Mind useless here ?



ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੋ ਰਹੈ ॥ 
Gur kai garihi sevak jo rahai. 
That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru's household,  
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਹੈ ॥
Gur kī āgi▫ā man mėh sahai.
is to obey the Guru's Commands with all his mind.  
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਜਨਾਵੈ ॥
Āpas ka▫o kar kacẖẖ na janāvai.
He is not to call attention to himself in any way. 
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਦ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
Har har nām riḏai saḏ ḏẖi▫āvai.
He is to meditate constantly within his heart on the Name of the Lord. 

*ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥*
*Man becẖai saṯgur kai pās.*
*One who sells his mind to the True Guru -* 

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
Ŧis sevak ke kāraj rās.
that humble servant's affairs are resolved.
ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ 
Sevā karaṯ ho▫e nihkāmī. 
One who performs selfless service, without thought of reward, 
ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
Ŧis ka▫o hoṯ parāpaṯ su▫āmī.
shall attain his Lord and Master.  
ਅਪਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ 
Apnī kirpā jis āp kare▫i.
He Himself grants His Grace;  
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਲੇਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak so sevak gur kī maṯ le▫e. ||2|| 
O Nanak, that selfless servant lives the Guru's Teachings. ||2||  


Does selling or offering your Mind mean you must never still it ?
How do you sacrifice and devote your Mind toward satguru, keeping in Mind that you have dozens of thoughts running through and He knows every single one of them ??

All my lowly knowledge and ignorance is telling me is that your interpretations are totally fabricated for your own personal use.


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2014)

harry haller said:


> so to that end, if you are a Hindu, you are correct, as is most of what you are writing, my argument is that in *Sikhism Naam is something different, it is more of a connection, a very physical connection with Creation, rather than a spiritual connection of soul uniting.*


 
Explain how Naam is the connection ?
What is this connection that I keep hearing ? is it connected to the air, the oxygen, the people ?

Then what I cannot understand is
if Naam is connection,  
then what is Amrit ?
What is shabad ?
what is gurmantar?
what is jyot, where is jyot ?

They can't all possible mean ''connection with creation''
Is creation MAYA ?

What is the difference between 'jap' and 'dyan/meditate'........
It's not contemplate, because contemplate is 'Vichaar' isn't it ?

Do some of us think that guru used all these interchanging words like a thesaurus ??
Did he need to find words to match the raag ?
Japji sahib is not in raag !

Have I really missed the total point somewhere ?

Maybe if I see what some of you understand with the above, then I may begin to just thrive on the ''_surface''_


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2014)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> A brilliant statement.
> 
> Please let me add that it also doesn't work if you take the parts of any one religion that you like and ignore the parts you don't like.


 
But all I can see is people ignoring parts that they don't like--especially the whole inward spirituality.
They would rather be busy with the outwardly, when you should be doing both.

some of us eat all the variety of veg and fruit given on a plate, but some like to grab out the bits they like first and leave the rest !


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2014)

> Explain how Naam is the connection ?



sure, it is my heartfelt belief that to be in a state of Naam is to be in a state of awareness of surroundings and to be connected to Creation, in plain english, to be able to empathise with the people around you and to have respect for Creation around you, animals, nature, etc,. 

It is also my heartfelt belief that the only way to be in a state of Naam is to respect the concept of Hukam, but that will wait for another thread. However, in plain english, I guess it is to be living a life of truth to the best of your ability and understanding, to feel the pain of others, to try and do something about it, to try and introduce truth into Creation, to attempt to bring light where there is darkness, not within yourself, but outside of yourself, into your environment, for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. 



> What is this connection that I keep hearing ? is it connected to the air, the oxygen, the people ?



Hmm if you could lose the sarcasm for a moment, you would find that yes, you are correct, the air, the oxygen, the people.



> Then what I cannot understand is
> if Naam is connection,
> then what is Amrit ?
> What is shabad ?
> ...



Seeing as we are onto 19 pages and in your opinion the question was answered on page 1 ( I notice you answered on page 1!! lol) I hardly think we can cover 4 more similar questions in a paragraph, but as I like you, I will give it my best shot, but it is only my opinion

Amrit as in the ceremony, rather than the physical liquid, is a declaration of intent to keep up that connection as per the information given in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Shabad is the information as referred to above.

As for Gurmantar, well, I had to cheat here and refer to Sikhiwikki, which although I would not normally refer to this site for information, gives the following



> GUR MANTAR, Punjabi Gurmantar, is that esoteric formula or term significant of the Supreme Being or the deity which the master or teacher confides to the neophyte to meditate on when initiating him into his spiritual discipline. The concept of mantra goes back to the pre-Vedic non-Aryan tradition and to the primitive cults of magic, animism and totemism.
> It has since been a continuing element one way or another in the religious traditions of the world and traces of it pervade to this day among the most modern of them. The occultist and the tantrist believe that mantras have power over the deity and can make it confer the desired boon or favour. According to the Brahmanical tradition, the universe is under the power of the gods, the gods are under the power of the mantras and the mantras are under the power of the Brahmans. The mantras have power over the gods or forces of Nature, but the Absolute Reality or the Supreme Being is here excluded. The mantras of the occultist comprised words which, in most cases, were merely weird sounds or perversions of meaningful words. The repetition, ceaseless repetition in the prescribed manner, of these was believed to prove efficacious in producing the desired result. Mantras also began to be culled from scriptural texts, and were used for the purpose of propitiating the gods. Similarly, certain mystic words from Scriptures were chosen to be meditated upon to win release or liberation. Om is the highest mantra in the Hindu system.



According to Sikhiwikki,  Bhai Gurdas (1551-1636) makes the statement "Vahiguru is the gurmantra; by repeating it thou hast thy ego erased," (Varan X111.2)., in my view , this statement is saying that Sikhs do not need a special word, as the supreme is the word, however, you have taken the view that this statement is actually condoning the use of mantras, that is your right, and I for one would not argue with it, it is only when a view is put forward that claims to be the definitive where I have a problem.

As for jyot, I will pass on that one, before we start on soul, conciousness, and all the other buzz words that keep popping up. 



> They can't all possible mean ''connection with creation''



well they don't.....



> Is creation MAYA ?



It depends what your meaning of MAYA is....



> What is the difference between 'jap' and 'dyan/meditate'........
> It's not contemplate, because contemplate is 'Vichaar' isn't it ?



I am not a Punjabi Scholar, those questions are best put to a Scholar





> Have I really missed the total point somewhere ?



no, you have not, you have embraced what you feel, and it works for you, brilliant, and I mean that, absolutely brilliant, well done, please please offer your opinions and your thoughts on as many threads as you can and I will be eternally grateful, thankful and happy we have someone on this forum, well several on this forum that can give us the spiritual aspect, the spiritual angle on what we are discussing, I want you guys to contribute as much as possible, to give your angle to the max. 

All I ask is that you try not to make it sound like it is the only way and that the rest of us are deluded idiots, I find that offensive, and it makes me determined to put an opposing opinion up, not for me, not for the sake of argument, but so that those that read are aware that what you guys are saying is not word, it is not fact, it is your opinion and you are sharing it with us.

I hope my point is made, in the next few days, I intend to open some old threads on some old topics that could really do with some fresh debate, I hope to see you guys input and I hope we can all learn from it.


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## japjisahib04 (May 23, 2014)

S. Lucky Singh Jee, 
Please re-read and you will find the answer in first pauree of japjisahib   Guru Nanak denounces the observance of outwardly purifying, outwardly trying to still the mind(meditation), quenching fire of desire or just knowledge which does not reflect love or compassion,as a mean to seek communion with God and is mortals own fabrication out of ego and has nothing to do with gurmat. Instead in this stanza he proclaims importance of exploring the innerself, the conscience by internal Purity of mind, utilizing the mind for betterness of society, Contentment of mind and righteous knowledge of mind. Manh is boss and manh can be chanelled by the organs of manh and not by the organs of tan -  ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> S. Lucky Singh Jee,
> Please re-read and you will find the answer in first pauree of japjisahib Guru Nanak denounces the observance of outwardly purifying, outwardly trying to still the mind(meditation), quenching fire of desire or just knowledge which does not reflect love or compassion,as a mean to seek communion with God and is mortals own fabrication out of ego and has nothing to do with gurmat. Instead in this stanza he proclaims importance of exploring the innerself, the conscience by internal Purity of mind, utilizing the mind for betterness of society, Contentment of mind and righteous knowledge of mind. Manh is boss and manh can be chanelled by the organs of manh and not by the organs of tan - ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥



The 1st pauri does not answer the question in any way but it is telling you that you can't put any limitations or box his qualities.
I cannot see any of this justifying your interpretations. But if you insist, I am more than happy to see a sensible explanation.


I would also be most grateful, if you could address the explanations I gave in response to all the misinterpreted(in my view) references in your earlier post #163.
I responded extensively to each reference you made in post 166......http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42331-what-is-naam-19.html#post197530

 I would appreciate and be most obliged with a sensible response and discussion, rather than ignoring.


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## japjisahib04 (May 23, 2014)

S. Lucky Singh Ji,
There a possibility that we are taking the meanings of some words quite literally rather than delving into the true meanings what our visionary Gurus are trying to convey through the beautiful poetry of Gurbani? I am not as enlightened as you are, but my little understanding tells me that when gurbani says, ' ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥ - since mind is invisible thus these elements are not physical elements but guru sahib is referring to kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. I hope now it clarifies why I said mind is  not creation of God.  Similarly when guru sahib says, 'ਪਾਂਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਤਨੁ ਰਚਿਓ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਚਤੁਰ ਸੁਜਾਨ ॥ Oh enlightened mind, by following the gurmat path  you have  cultivated supreme virtues such as humility, devotion, compassion,contentment and sincerity in hearts, then only will be considered smart and transformed otherwise spiritually dead. Thus again these are not physical elements but elements for body of manh. 

Each sentence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib has one central idea; it belongs to one common packet of enlightenment; words supports that central idea. For example,  I interpret when divine message is conceived it is called brahma and once this divine message is transmitted to the organ and is lived practically that exercise is called Vishnu. Similarly negative and destructive thought process is called  shiva or maha deva. If you find this understanding reasonable then I proceed further.


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2014)

> but my little understanding tells me that when gurbani says, ' ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥ - since mind is invisible thus these elements are not physical elements but guru sahib is referring to kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. I hope now it clarifies why I said mind is not creation of God.


 
Yes, I completely understand where you are coming from.

I sincerely believe that Guru sahib is referring to *5 elements and that Panch tat=5 elements.*
You see, you are saying that Mind is not creation of God, (assuming that it is referring to 5 dhut).
I believe that because you are not looking into what the Mind is more deeper, then you will come across too many contradictions if you keep this same approach.


Now, this is a big issue and topic itself and I have done some intense in-depth vichaar previously.
It is way too huge to discuss here, but I can give you some main points to help you understand my stance........I hope it helps!.....


You say that Mind is invisible, so it can't be creation of 5 elements ?
Well, my answer to that is Yes it is invisible/formless but it Can be creation of 5 tat as well, !!!!
How can that be ??

Remember that Mind is jyot saroop. 
_''Mann tu jyot saroop hai, apna mool pachan''- (The Mind is jyot manifestation but you have to find it's true Mool/origin or source)'_

However, when you look at every single pankti that refers to Mind being 5 tat, then it seems a little contradicting to say that it is jyot saroop as well doesn't it ?
(I always tell myself that if gurbani seems to contradict, then it is my own misunderstanding and I need to delve further)

Well my Answer- it's not contradicting, because Guru ji is telling us it is jyot saroop, therefore it is from the same God who is beyond birth and death/ajooni and of no form, nirinkar...etc... agree ?

BUT- *gurbani also tells us that the* *same Mind can be born in to physical creation*. This means it can be within the confines/partial control of human body that takes birth.
Just like the rest of creation exists because of 5 elements, then the Mind within us also exists because of these same 5.

You could say before birth the Mind is in existence in pure form. 
The same Mind is born within a human body that itself is created because of 5 tat.
Now that this Mind is under influence of ALL things in 5 tat(subtle/sukam/without form)
.....it starts to create it's _own duality_ that gurbani talks about.
The same duality is the _separateness by ego_ 
This ego is the illusionary identity and it is also run by the 5 chor.

Basically Mind + Ego identity= Us manmukhs/humans
Minus the Ego, then Mind=God, jyot saroop, the source, the mool....etc..

That's why gurbani also says that the _*Mind is unique*_ part of our existence because every organ within is influenced and maintained by another (lungs-stomach-liver-kidneys-heart...) 
BUT as quoted in a few places in gurbani ..*ONLY the MIND can Conquer and heal itself by itself !!!!*
Which is why you have to look at both the veil of illusion/ego the mind is drowned in AND it's true inner jyot saroop,, hence the duality.

*Gurbani is ''agam agad abodh''* (_meaning-a treasure of unmeasurable depth that is Unreachable and Limitless)_
This is why, as we progress spiritually, we begin to break the dividing line of duality within our own minds.
Therefore, when you look at gurbani, from just one side of the duality fence(as you explained from the ego side above)then you get a different meaning, but as you look closer and closer towards the other side, the meaning gets deeper and you understand it more strongly.

I can see your understanding and I hope you can follow and understand what I'm saying. 
You may proceed further from previous posts and by all means tell me what part of my stance you don't follow or need further elaboration.0


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## Sherdil (May 23, 2014)

In this discussion, 2 points about Naam stick out:
1) Naam manifests the universe. 
2) It is something given by the divine.

Harry ji provided a reference from wiki, and I found a point that resonated with me. It is this: *"It is believed that God existed before the creation of the universe. The name of God is therefore beyond the language structure created by mankind."*

I think this is what the mool mantar is stating. Ik Oankaar, Sat Naam (One essence, whose name is Truth). 

If I can fall back on the Sanskrit definition of Naam to be "name", then can we say that the name is *"Oankaar"*?

This solves the riddle of Naam manifesting the Universe. The definition of Naam is then explained in the rest of the mool mantar. 



> ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥ Ik▫oaŉkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaŉ gur parsāḏ. One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. *Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent.*By Guru's Grace ~



Then Sat Naam can also be explained. Sat (I like to call it objective truth) is Oankaar. This is the truth of everything. The singularity (Ek), if you will. 

When gurbani says Naam is given by the divine, I take it to mean that we come to understand it only when we are meant to understand it. The eureka moment may not come during meditation or contemplation, but rather when we are relaxing near a lake or something like that. Legend has it that Isaac Newton formulated his theory on gravity after he saw an apple fall from a tree. Many scientific discoveries have similarly been the product of chance. 

These are just my thoughts.


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2014)

Creation is the creator, BUT Creator is not creation in the sense that Creator was already in existence, and then he created his creation.

First there was a void and there was only the unstruck sound of ong.
'Ong gurmukh kio akhara' the creation was created through the word of God.

Then according to gurbani, followed pavan. From pavan the other 4 elements followed.
Pavan is not air, it is the life force.


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## Sherdil (May 23, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Creation is the creator, BUT Creator is not creation in the sense that Creator was already in existence, and then he created his creation.
> 
> First there was a void and there was only the unstruck sound of ong.
> 'Ong gurmukh kio akhara' the creation was created through the word of God.
> ...



I agree. Oang is the sound. Kar meaning "to do".

O = Create
AN = Sustain
NG = Destroy

The sound resonating as the Shabadh plays out existence, with the observable universe manifesting itself as different notes. 

Even scientifically this makes sense, as matter is made of molecules vibrating at different frequencies. 

Consciousness is not an element, so was it created or has it always existed? Sometimes I feel like gurbani is telling us that we are God. This is the only way I can reconcile the concepts of Hukam and free will.


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## Luckysingh (May 24, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Consciousness is not an element, so was it created or has it always existed? Sometimes I feel like gurbani is telling us that we are God. This is the only way I can reconcile the concepts of Hukam and free will.


 
God is the supreme consciousness, and Yes we are part of that same conscious but we have to elevate it towards the God level.
Consciousness is not an element as you say and neither was it created and neither can it be destroyed.

I don't want to go off topic but Einstein was more God enlightened than people realize, he understood that something was keeping the universe in order and preventing scientific ''chaos'' because something is maintaining an always active 'order' in the universe.


He tried to explain this in the way of energy..... ''it is neither created or destroyed'' 
(Gurbani says the same that God conscious is neither born or dies)

This energy is from the same consciousness.

This consciousness is of no form as we understand and it exists everywhere even in a void.
However, whatever or wherever it is, it is always active and keeping the whole show of the universe in constant order.


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## japjisahib04 (May 24, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Now, this is a big issue and topic itself and I have done some intense in-depth vichaar previously.
> It is way too huge to discuss here, but I can give you some main points to help you understand my stance........I hope it helps!.....
> 
> 
> ...


With due respect to you, it is only a matter how one understand the gurbani. Your reference, 'Mann tu jyot saroop hai, apna mool pachan''- (The Mind is jyot manifestation but you have to find it's true Mool/origin or source). My simple understanding upon reflecting sequence of nine stanzas is, once manh realizes its roots, then it is jyot sarup, otherwise it is a satan. As Bhagat kabir jee says, 'manh is built as per the company/enviornment and the natural tendency and who has succeeded in crossing bhavjal by keeping manh still. ਮਨ ਕਾ ਸੁਭਾਉ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਿਆਪੀ ॥ ਮਨਹਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਧਿ ਥਾਪੀ ॥੧॥ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਮੁਨਿ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੈ ॥ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਤਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥   Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 328.19.

A very famous saying, 'once I begin to understand myself(my roots), I begin to live and once I begin to live I see God in all and as such respect everyone. Unless one recognize the truth within, he is like a tree without roots. Without understanding the depth of gurbani, but repetition of a word,  we could be very easily mislead by any sant baba, shriman 108 etc. Repetition of a word is only moving us at the surface level. No doubt why gurbani says, aakhan aukha sacha nau to walk at the surface level is very easy but to delve deeper on gurbani is difficult that is why people run after repetition. As gurbani says, ' ਦੇਖੌ ਭਾਈ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨ ਕੀ ਆਈ ਆਂਧੀ ॥  ਸਭੈ ਉਡਾਨੀ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕੀ ਟਾਟੀ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਾਂਧੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  let us get out from all useless techniques and instead understand gurbani Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 331.17


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## japjisahib04 (May 24, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> Yes, but Kabir ji is actually saying '' no one can cross over with killing the mind'' like the silent sage or siddha.
> But at the same time, ''*No one can perform devotional bhakti without killing it either''*
> 
> 
> ...


over here, 'ਮਨ ਮਾਰੇ' stands for conquering fire of desires. Please check the context.


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## japjisahib04 (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for pointing out my ignorance but then how would you interpret, 'vin gun keetai bhagat hoey'


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## Harry Haller (May 24, 2014)

> Same thing.... makes no difference dude !!



It is possible I am also as ignorant, but how is killing the entirety of the mind the same as killing the desires?



> How would you kill desires ??..................



by understanding them, understanding the consequences, by being mature in your thinking, by not behaving like an animal, by behaving with grace and having respect for yourself



> Don't desires arise from thoughts ?..................



some thoughts, desires arise from some thoughts, not reason enough to kill all thoughts



> Wouldn't it be, by NOT following thoughts and trying to follow just ONE thought ??



you mean like a zombie?



> Killing the mind means killing the thoughts and to die in the shabad.



I know what killing the mind means, and I also know the consequences, Sikhism is not about losing yourself completely, to me it is about gaining the truth, and complimenting yourself with such. It is about being yourself, but your true self, not just squeezing everything out and then being true. 



> You're just not getting it or are just refusing to follow !



Why should he get it, why should I get it, why should any of us get it, these are your thoughts, your opinions, your musings which you have formed in your own way, I find it arrogant and egoistical to assume we should all get it. 



> Let me rephrase again for you how your mind works for the last time !



This is actually the height of arrogance and ego, it is actually one of the strangest statements you have come out with, it tops everything, that you, the Great Luckyji knows more about how another's mind words, better than the owner, brilliant, keep going!



> You still have No idea that (or it's just pure ignorance)....



oh well that makes at least two ignorant people reading this, because I also have no idea what point you are trying to make, other than in your view, we should all be zombies.


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## Ishna (May 24, 2014)

Humbly disagreeing about killing the mind = killing thoughts = dying in the shabad.  The mind is not an enemy any more than your body is an enemy.  The sense of duality and separation from Everything is the issue (haumai).  The opposite of that condition is Naam, realisation of the essential, interconnected Reality behind every little thing.


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## Sherdil (May 24, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Humbly disagreeing about killing the mind = killing thoughts = dying in the shabad.  The mind is not an enemy any more than your body is an enemy.  The sense of duality and separation from Everything is the issue (haumai).  The opposite of that condition is Naam, realisation of the essential, interconnected Reality behind every little thing.



I agree with this. If anything, we are trying to wake the mind up. 

Maybe to die in the shabadh means to blend with it. Instead of marching to our own tune, we should begin to listen to the cosmic song, and realize that we are a part of this song. I think in this way, Haumai is eradicated. 

Killing the thoughts is something else. If it means to stop the mind from wandering, I would say that we cannot do this. Look at people with ADD. The only way they can focus is by taking a pill. 

We must not stop wandering. Rather, we must change what we see when we wander. If all we see is The One, then I think it's okay if we wander.


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## Ishna (May 24, 2014)

Ego is a necessary part of human psychology, and without one we might find ourselves to be vegetables.  To that end, haumai (translated as _separation_, duality of you-me distinction) is the true veil of illusion.  The Shabad sings about our interonnectedness, and to die in the shabad is to _replace_ dualistic thought-patterns with shabad-inspired ones which _transform_ our thinking and our behaviour from self-centred haumai to slave-of-the-Sat, tuned-into-the-state-of-Naam Gursikhs.

We forget our interconnectedness all the time as our focus/attunement is stolen by the five theives (the panj dhoot) and we are enticed by the illusion of separation and stand proudly atop our tiny mountain of me-ism as if we rule the world.  *snickers*

Then we are old, frail, sick, alone and suffering and there's nothing left but the Sat and we are alone with it, the unfamiliarity of it is a curse for the manmukh.  But for the Gursikh, who is already well acquainted with the Sat, and lived their life to the best of their abilities remembering the interconnectedness, then the suffering and death is just another bead on the Sat's eternal thread of Creation.

Such a deep seated knowing, realisation, contentment with the Reality is Naam; reminding ourself of it is simran, and the shabad, which has been around forever, and the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our window into, is the spiritual wisdom given to us by Guru (who is the Sat) with the power to connect us to the Naam mindset.

imho.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 24, 2014)

japjisahib04 said:


> Thanks for pointing out my ignorance but then how would you interpret, 'vin gun keetai bhagat hoey'



Sahni Ji..
You have hit the Jackpot...
Vinn GUNN KEETEYH.....Bhagat NA Hoeyeh...

The pivotal words for me are GUNN...KEETEYH..and Bhagat

The NAAM comprises the GUNNS..of HIM, the Creator...and Keeteyh means DONE..Performed..ACTED UPON....and Bhagat meaning BHAGTEE..

The NAAM are His GUNNS which have to be Kamaiieed ( through ACTION..performing them in action in our daily lives to result in real Bhagtee.....and not just mouthing or murmuring some word or twirling the pearls beads of a maala and calling that bhagtee.

The VERY first and Fundamental GUNN of HIM is SATNAAM...TRUTH...and Guru Ji has DOUBLE STRESSED the Kamaii of TRUTH when He wrote..TRUTH is HIGH (SATNAAM)..BUT HIGHER STILL is TRUTHFUL LIVING !!! That sums up my views..one has to IMBIBE TRUTH into our daily life so we LIVE TRUTHFULLY and become SACHIAREH..as its also written SACHIREH SIKH BAITHHEN SATGUR PASS..the Truthful living sikhs sit beside the GURU.

Now a days most - 99.9% of Babas and  their followers just naam-dhreek Sikhs have discarded Truthful LIVING...and are just MECHANICAL ROBOTS...mouthing the "naam" mechanically...recording these NUMBERS as 101 Jaaps..1001 jaaps..125,000 jaaps..lakh jaaps..sava lakh..million..kror jaaps..kror chaupaiis..lakh ardasses..kror WAHEGURUS written in Copy Books and passed up to the Cheif Baba to Mark as PASSED !! etc etc..and CREMATED after a "ARDASS".....but continuing to live the same old UNTRUTHFUL LIVES..lying cheating..krodh kaam lobh moh full lives...

So much so even the Jathedars dish out "PUNISHMENTS" like..go to Hazoor sahib and LISTEN to 2 hours Kirtan...go to Akal takhat and listen to 1 hour Jaap...or go home and read Japji 21 times...!!!! and once you ahev completed that come back here and we will do the ARDASS to forgive YOU !!! 

Clearly HUMPTY DUMPTY has Fallen and broken....and all the Jathedars cant fix it....


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## Sherdil (May 25, 2014)

In the other thread, started by AoG, it was discussed that the earth is the body and the mind is the pool of nectar. 

Can the mind also be considered a temple? Considering context and audience, was Guru ji trying to steer people away from idol worship when he spoke of enshrining the Lord's name in your mind? 

Ostensibly, idol worship is a means by which people can focus their devotion towards God. However, this subtlety was lost and the idol became God himself for the devotees. 

So I think Guru ji was giving us another way to focus our love and devotion. Enshrine the Naam in the temple of our minds and there The Lord will come to abide. Understand the meaning of Naam, and focus your mind on that meaning so that we can see through the veil of illusion draped over our eyes. 

I think this is what I would also tell people who pray to images of the Guru Sahiban. Enshrine their teachings within your mind and you will carry them with you wherever you go.


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## arshi (May 27, 2014)

I had good reasons to keep my distance from all forums, at least for a while, but the sad departure of Narayanjot ji prompted me to pay my respects.

During the process I stumbled upon this thread which I found to be quite interesting and absorbing with excellent contributions all around, not the Sahni ji least from Sahni ji (who I had the good fortune of meeting, briefly, during my travels a few years ago and Lucky ji – it’s a pity it went off course somewhat. In my opinion, Lucky ji had a lot to contribute and hopefully he will resume with his valuable inputs.

Sherdil ji made the following interesting observation:



> _Ostensibly, idol worship is a means by which people can focus their devotion towards God. However, this subtlety was lost and the idol became God himself for the devotees._



He is absolutely right – a lot of things start in good faith and then end up as rituals. This is happening a lot in Sikhi too. To me continual recital of Gurmantar is a means to end. Repeated number of Paaths, e.g. Anand Sahib, is also a means to an end – Bani kannth karni (learn be heart) – so that we can access it at any time to guide us in our practical dealings in life. The amount of print material and technology, we have in contemporary times, was not available to Sikhs centuries ago – they had to live like nomads fighting for survival in forests and on the run 24/7. They had to memorise Gurbani. There is nothing wrong in repetition. However, without practical execution this becomes a mere ritual.

The END here lies in getting rid of the negative traits, thought replacement or thought conversion – ie through shabad, killing the negative mind, to align it with the wisdom bestowed upon us by our Gurus through the Jagdi Joyt Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I find the following very panktis helpful in guiding me:

_naanak sabad marai man maanee-ai saachay saachee so-ay. (1417 - 1)_
*The mind can only be reconciled to the teachings of the Guru through shabad. Such a person is free of all vikaars and lives in constant bliss.*

_sabad marai so-ee jan sijhai bin sabdai mukat na ho-ee. (1416 - 16)_
*Only those who die in the Shabad succeed in finding mukti (liberation). Without the Shabad, no one is liberated (mukti from the five enemies, i.e. negative traits).*

The following pankti appeared during the discussion:
_ih man saktee ih man see-o; ih man panch tat ko jee-o. (342)_

Translating Gurbani is not always a straight forward task. To understand this pankti better one needs to look at the whole shabad, which I did. However, I will only post my own understanding when I am completely satisfied with the interpretation.

WJKK WJKF

Humbly 
Rajinder singh ‘Arshi'


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## chazSingh (May 27, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> In the other thread, started by AoG, it was discussed that the earth is the body and the mind is the pool of nectar.
> 
> Can the mind also be considered a temple? Considering context and audience, was Guru ji trying to steer people away from idol worship when he spoke of enshrining the Lord's name in your mind?
> 
> ...



yup, stay focussed on where you want to go...where you want to be...

a focused mind see's all...a mind being dragged in all corners tends to miss what is right before us in the present...


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## chazSingh (Jul 26, 2015)

I'm hoping i am not re-posting a shabad that has already been posted but i think this shabad explains everything clearly about:

1. the mind that is required by us in life and in creation..
2. the mind that is far too attracted and lost in Ego, anger, lust , greed, desires
3. the mind that once drawn in my the grace of Guru Ji starts to get enraptured by what it has been so blind to for such a long time
3. the mind that loses interest in meaningless things and *beholds the light within*...

Such an Amazing Shabad...

ਗਉੜੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੪  ॥
गउड़ी महला ४ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 4.
Gauree, Fourth Mehl:

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਵੀਚਾਰੀਆ  ਵੀਚਾਰਿ  ਦੇਖੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला वीचारीआ वीचारि देखु समालि ॥
Man karhalā vīcẖārī▫ā vīcẖār ḏekẖ samāl.
O contemplative camel-like mind, contemplate and look carefully.

ਬਨ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਥਕੇ  ਬਨ  ਵਾਸੀਆ  ਪਿਰੁ  ਗੁਰਮਤਿ  ਰਿਦੈ  ਨਿਹਾਲਿ  ॥੧॥
]बन फिरि थके बन वासीआ पिरु गुरमति रिदै निहालि ॥१॥
Ban fir thake ban vāsī▫ā pir gurmaṯ riḏai nihāl. ||1||
The forest-dwellers have  grown weary of wandering in the forests; following the Guru's Teachings,  see your Husband Lord within your heart. ||1||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਗੁਰ  ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
मन करहला गुर गोविंदु समालि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Man karhalā gur govinḏ samāl. ||1|| rahā▫o.
O camel-like mind, dwell upon the Guru and the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਵੀਚਾਰੀਆ  ਮਨਮੁਖ  ਫਾਥਿਆ  ਮਹਾ  ਜਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला वीचारीआ मनमुख फाथिआ महा जालि ॥
Man karhalā vīcẖārī▫ā manmukẖ fāthi▫ā mahā jāl.
O camel-like contemplative mind, the self-willed manmukhs are caught in the great net.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ  ਮੁਕਤੁ  ਹੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥੨॥
गुरमुखि प्राणी मुकतु है हरि हरि नामु समालि ॥२॥
Gurmukẖ parāṇī mukaṯ hai har har nām samāl. ||2||
The mortal who becomes Gurmukh is liberated, dwelling upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||2||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਪਿਆਰਿਆ  ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਭਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला मेरे पिआरिआ सतसंगति सतिगुरु भालि ॥
Man karhalā mere pi▫āri▫ā saṯsangaṯ saṯgur bẖāl.
O my dear beloved camel-like mind, seek the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, and the True Guru.

ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ  ਲਗਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਧਿਆਈਐ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਚਲੈ  ਤੇਰੈ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥੩॥
सतसंगति लगि हरि धिआईऐ हरि हरि चलै तेरै नालि ॥३॥
Saṯsangaṯ lag har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai har har cẖalai ṯerai nāl. ||3||
Joining the Sat Sangat, meditate on the Lord, and the Lord, Har, Har, shall go along with you. ||3||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਏਕ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਨਿਹਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला वडभागीआ हरि एक नदरि निहालि ॥
Man karhalā vadbẖāgī▫ā har ek naḏar nihāl.
O very fortunate camel-like mind, with one Glance of Grace from the Lord, you shall be enraptured.

ਆਪਿ  ਛਡਾਏ  ਛੁਟੀਐ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਚਰਣ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥੪॥
आपि छडाए छुटीऐ सतिगुर चरण समालि ॥४॥
Āp cẖẖadā▫e cẖẖutī▫ai saṯgur cẖaraṇ samāl. ||4||
If the Lord Himself saves you, then you shall be saved. Dwell upon the Feet of the True Guru. ||4||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਪਿਆਰਿਆ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਦੇਹੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला मेरे पिआरिआ विचि देही जोति समालि ॥
Man karhalā mere pi▫āri▫ā vicẖ ḏehī joṯ samāl.
O my dear beloved camel-like mind, dwell upon the Divine Light within the body.

ਗੁਰਿ  ਨਉ  ਨਿਧਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਵਿਖਾਲਿਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਦਾਤਿ  ਕਰੀ  ਦਇਆਲਿ  ॥੫॥
गुरि नउ निधि नामु विखालिआ हरि दाति करी दइआलि ॥५॥
Gur na▫o niḏẖ nām vikẖāli▫ā har ḏāṯ karī ḏa▫i▫āl. ||5||
The Guru has shown me the nine treasures of the Naam. The Merciful Lord has bestowed this gift. ||5||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਤੂੰ  ਚੰਚਲਾ  ਚਤੁਰਾਈ  ਛਡਿ  ਵਿਕਰਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला तूं चंचला चतुराई छडि विकरालि ॥
Man karhalā ṯūŉ cẖancẖlā cẖaṯurā▫ī cẖẖad vikrāl.
O camel-like mind, you are so fickle; give up your cleverness and corruption.

ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ਤੂੰ  ਹਰਿ  ਮੁਕਤਿ  ਕਰੇ  ਅੰਤ  ਕਾਲਿ  ॥੬॥
हरि हरि नामु समालि तूं हरि मुकति करे अंत कालि ॥६॥
Har har nām samāl ṯūŉ har mukaṯ kare anṯ kāl. ||6||
Dwell upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har; at the very last moment, the Lord shall liberate you. ||6||

ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲਾ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀਆ  ਤੂੰ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਰਤਨੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥
मन करहला वडभागीआ तूं गिआनु रतनु समालि ॥
Man karhalā vadbẖāgī▫ā ṯūŉ gi▫ān raṯan samāl.
O camel-like mind, you are so very fortunate; dwell upon the jewel of spiritual wisdom.

ਗੁਰ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਖੜਗੁ  ਹਥਿ  ਧਾਰਿਆ  ਜਮੁ  ਮਾਰਿਅੜਾ  ਜਮਕਾਲਿ  ॥੭॥
गुर गिआनु खड़गु हथि धारिआ जमु मारिअड़ा जमकालि ॥७॥
Gur gi▫ān kẖaṛag hath ḏẖāri▫ā jam māri▫aṛā jamkāl. ||7||
You hold in your hands the  sword of the Guru's spiritual wisdom; with this destroyer of death,  kill the Messenger of Death. ||7||

ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਨਿਧਾਨੁ  ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲੇ  ਭ੍ਰਮਿ  ਭਵਹਿ  ਬਾਹਰਿ  ਭਾਲਿ  ॥
अंतरि निधानु मन करहले भ्रमि भवहि बाहरि भालि ॥
Anṯar niḏẖān man karhale bẖaram bẖavėh bāhar bẖāl.
The treasure is deep within, O camel-like mind, but you wander around outside in doubt, searching for it.

ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਪੂਰਾ  ਭੇਟਿਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਸਜਣੁ  ਲਧੜਾ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥੮॥
गुरु पुरखु पूरा भेटिआ हरि सजणु लधड़ा नालि ॥८॥
Gur purakẖ pūrā bẖeti▫ā har sajaṇ laḏẖ▫ṛā nāl. ||8||
Meeting the Perfect Guru, the Primal Being, you shall discover that the Lord, your Best Friend, is with you. ||8||

ਰੰਗਿ  ਰਤੜੇ  ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲੇ  ਹਰਿ  ਰੰਗੁ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥
रंगि रतड़े मन करहले हरि रंगु सदा समालि ॥
Rang raṯ▫ṛe man karhale har rang saḏā samāl.
You are engrossed in pleasures, O camel-like mind; dwell upon the Lord's lasting love instead!

ਹਰਿ  ਰੰਗੁ  ਕਦੇ  ਨ  ਉਤਰੈ  ਗੁਰ  ਸੇਵਾ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥੯॥
हरि रंगु कदे न उतरै गुर सेवा सबदु समालि ॥९॥
Har rang kaḏe na uṯrai gur sevā sabaḏ samāl. ||9||
The color of the Lord's Love never fades away; serve the Guru, and dwell upon the Word of the Shabad. ||9||

ਹਮ  ਪੰਖੀ  ਮਨ  ਕਰਹਲੇ  ਹਰਿ  ਤਰਵਰੁ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਅਕਾਲਿ  ॥
हम पंखी मन करहले हरि तरवरु पुरखु अकालि ॥
Ham pankẖī man karhale har ṯarvar purakẖ akāl.
We are birds, O camel-like mind; the Lord, the Immortal Primal Being, is the tree.

ਵਡਭਾਗੀ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਸਮਾਲਿ  ॥੧੦॥੨॥
वडभागी गुरमुखि पाइआ जन नानक नामु समालि ॥१०॥२॥
vadbẖāgī gurmukẖ pā▫i▫ā jan Nānak nām samāl. ||10||2||
The Gurmukhs are very fortunate - they find it. O servant Nanak, dwell upon the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||10||2||


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## Original (Jul 27, 2015)

Chaz Ji

Beautiful shabad ! Maaza ah jaanda gah ka te sunn ka, if you pitch it right !

Sherdil Ji, the initiator of the actual thread asked specific questions with which I'm inclined to set-sail and see whether satisfactory explanations can be had.

First n foremost, can I, from the participators in general ask, does fire have history ?


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## Ishna (Jul 27, 2015)

I will fix the formatting of Chaz's post as soon as I have time.  Thanks for you patience


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## Ishna (Jul 28, 2015)

Fixed.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 28, 2015)

The following pankties are more appropriate:

ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਸਾ ਸੇਵਾ ਅਉਖੀ ਹੋਈ ॥
जिस दी सेवा कीती फिरि लेखा मंगीऐ सा सेवा अउखी होई ॥
Jis ḏī sevā kīṯī fir lekẖā mangī▫ai sā sevā a▫ukẖī ho▫ī.
By following guidance of manh, you will be accountable and that following is painful and useless.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
नानक सेवा करहु हरि गुर सफल दरसन की फिरि लेखा मंगै न कोई ॥२॥
Nānak sevā karahu har gur safal ḏarsan kī fir lekẖā mangai na ko▫ī. ||2||
Thus O Nanak, By following instruction of conscience, you will not able accountable and mission accomplished. ||2||

_Complete Shabad: Guru Granth Sahib Page 306_


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