# 5ks And Sikh Woman



## drkhalsa (Sep 24, 2004)

I want to clearify one thing that Am I right in saying that 5 ks are both for sikh men and women, And does the kesh means for women to be uncut hair or uncut hair with dastaar I have lived in Punjab for 22 years but I can count number of womens following 5ks on my fingers that I have ever seen. Can you guide me in this regards what our community is doing to rectify it


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## Arvind (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

5 Ks are for all Singhs and Kaurs.

One of them is Kesh, i.e. unshorn hair. Dastaar is not a Kakar, but with evolution of Singhs, these became part of the uniform of the Khalsa. Certainly, we can look forward to more discussion about significance of dastaar by learned members here.

Regards.


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## etinder (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

I agree with arvind here that as far as my knowledge goes there was never a distinction or segregation done on the basis  of gender..

i know from where u are coming from drkhalsa..when its said to keep unshorn hair..that means not just the hairs of the head but all body hairs as said in punjabi keshan te romaan di beadabi..
but one thing i failed to understand that why women do it,is it to conform to the modern beauty standards that they have to shave or get rid of body hairs et al..
or some other factors like peer pressure, look and feel good factor ..
i wud like to know the views of the sangat on this and more from women members..


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## S|kH (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

So, "kesh" is all bodily hairs?

This debate will never end. 

And before you scrutinize women for shaving, please...please take a look at what they have to go through in the western world. I am not rectifying their reasons to do either thing, but....the same way I look at monays...you need to know why they do it.

Kesh, to me...has always been head-hair...although I do not shave or cut any other bodily hairs. I wonder what that makes me ?


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## Arvind (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

S|kh ji,

Kesh kakaar doesnt stand for head hair only. Kesh stand for unshorn hair all over the body.

Regards.


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## truthseeker (Sep 29, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

waheguru ji ka waheguru ji ki fateh!

I agree singh ji, "kesh" should mean all bodily hair. This may be a good example: you do not see a Singh with out a daree, or with shaven legs. So why should you see a Kaur? She is just the same, and just because society says that a girl should look or act a certain way, it should not take you away from guru sahib. He is here for ever but trends come and go


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## Arvind (Sep 29, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

yes truthseeker ji, Kesh i.e. unshorn hair all over body applies for Singhs as well as Kaurs. As per Guru ji, Sikh is supposed to respect each pore of body: no be-adbee of any rom anywhere on body.

Regards.


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## Singhstah (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

keski is kakkar
 so yes women and men are required to keep their hair and dastar

proof?

http://tapoban.org/keski.htm 

and

http://www.mkhalsa.com/lit/keskiconvo.html 

not to mention the book "In search of the true guru" by bhai Rama Singh Ji, i knew him personally and i know he was a mahpurkh who would not lie , and off course another  Mahpurkh Bhai Randhir Singh Ji believed the same


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## Arvind (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Welcome Singhstah. As you are missing a vital point in this discussion, it is relevant to look at the following thread where 'Keshki or Kesh' are being discussed: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/the-sikh-way-of-living-in-the-modern-world.810/

Off-topic: How does one identify a MahaPurakh? Generally people do as others follow them. What is your say regarding this. I suggest that we stay on present topic '5Ks for women', however, you may like to create new thread if you want to reply my query regarding MahaPurakh.

Thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

If kesh is all bodily hair then are we being patits by wearing a thick Kara which shaves our wrist hair and if we are fat and our thighs do the natural hair removal threading??

Just thinking aloud!!


A true story..

First and foremost, my Kara is about 1.5" thick and the Simarnah is about 3/4 of an inch. Both on my right wrist.

I was at Sikh Gurdwara of Los Angeles a few years ago having langar and a famous Hazoori Raagi ( whose name shall not be mentioned) was sitting on my right. He was a bit over weight as most of them are - thanks to our Desi Ghee Karah Prashad-When he saw my right wrist had less hair due to the Kara and  Simarnah. He really got offended when he saw my wrists and scolded me for doing BEIDBHI to my roms. I asked him gently about his thighs  removing his hair because of over weight, if that was ok. Well he did not finish his langar and left immediately. I felt bad for him leaving his langar half eaten. 

Tejwant


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## Arvind (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Tejwant ji, 

IMHO that there is a huge difference between natural removal and intentional removal. Any intentional rom be-adbee (by whatever way) takes us away from sikhi.

Back to topic: IMH understanding that 5Ks are valid for women too.

Regards.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Exactly my point Sevadaar Singh ji. Sikhi is based on Bhavnah- true intentions of a seeker-. However lets play devil's advocate so that we can glance at the other side which becomes a bit darker.

Gurbani is full of verses which talks about looking after Tun-physical body- before we can start taking care of Mun-mind.

_Tun, mun, dhan sabh somp Guru koh, Hukum maniiei paiiei._
_Only by fine tuning our Body, Soul and Mind we can begin to tread on the sikhi path._

As we know it has been asked to us to remain physically fit in order to seek ONE TRUE GOD. This is the HUKUM which all of us must follow. Now if we do not look after our body hence our thighs get bigger and they start rubbing each other which makes the hair thread out. So is this based on Bhavnah or is it intentional?

Now comes another contraversial part. We all know that wearing Kara does shave our wrist hair no matter what its size is. If we do not want this to happen then we should not wear it. Plain and simple. So shall we say Guru Gobind Singh contradicted himself by telling us to keep unshorn bodily hair and in the same token he gave us a symbol to wear which does shave it?

Which is NOT possible.

In the both cases mentioned above it is NOT the question of our Bhavnah but it is a result of cause and effect.

We should have more of these contraversial topics, for NOT to create a sense of righteousness in the writer but to challenge ourselves towards critical thinking. This is a work out for Mun.

Now coming back to our original topic, symbols created by Guru Gobind Singh ji are not gender based. All seekers have the same Kakaars if they follow the SIKHI PATH. Keeping that in mind we can not change the Kakaar KESH into KESHKI to forward our personal agenda. By doing this we are destroying the gender equality, the foundation stone of Sikhi as we are all very well aware of the fact that only a very few Amritdhari Singhnees wear turbans/keshkis.

In closing I would l like to say that only by further discussing the matter we may find out that there may be a difference between Roms and Kesh or may be not. But only by interacting we can learn and carry on our Sikhi marg.

Tejwant


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## Arvind (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Tejwant ji,

Remember we had a talk about food - In case we get into discussion about veg/non-veg then even inhaling, water drinking may lead to non-veg intake. And as we understand, those are extreme cases. And we ourselves draw a line so as to determine what should be eaten for a living. On the same note, the thigh and kara example seems to be extreme examples to me, though heavy kara is not an extreme example and may be avoided.

And I agree about playing devil's role or perhaps an outsider's role who has got little information about sikhism, that kind of discussions would lead us in a more inter-active debate, and helps us too in our analyzing approach.

Thank you.


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## Prabjyot Kaur (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa 

Waheguru ji ki fateh



Guru Piyareo, 

During the ‘Amrit Sanchaar’ ceremony; males and females are not discriminated in any way. Even some non-traditional sects of the Sikhs are choosing women to be one of the Panj-Piyare, then why this question arose in drkhalsa’s mind?



*Same rehat-maryada and kurehats apply to all Amritdhari singhs and singhnian.* 



Now if you would like to discuss each kakkar separately, let us make separate thread for each. Keski for women has been discussed before; it will be nice to see Punjabi women crowned with Turban but there are lot of other vices in our Punjabi Society that we have to get over with first.


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## S|kH (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*



			
				Sevadaar Singh said:
			
		

> S|kh ji,
> 
> Kesh kakaar doesnt stand for head hair only. Kesh stand for unshorn hair all over the body.
> 
> Regards.



Can you get evidence for that basis? 

Now, I'll provide you with just a bit of reasoning as to why Kesh could possibly mean only head-hair. 

When Guru Gobind was alive, and the Khalsa was created, he stated that Kesh is one of the 5 Kakkars of Khalsa. He then has poetic references to saying how the turban is the crown of a Singh, and he said something along the lines of "Putting the crown over your kesh". After the statement, Guru Gobind tied a pugh only over his head hair and not the rest of his body. He did not cover or tie any other hair. He asked every sikh male to wear the crown of the Singhs. 

And if people think this is miniscule argument, I ask you this. If Kesh is all hair,  than would he not have worn a muslim veil, for Islam was very prevalent during Guru Gobind's time. Llashvari provided a great explanation of just what "Kesh" is defined to be on sikhawareness forums a long time back.

Anyways, I am not too knowledgeable on this topic, but speaking from experience I can say this :
For me, if there is a God, I feel that God has made it almost intrinisic in me that Kesh is head-hair. Yes, I do have a beard, that I have nor trimmed or shaved (the rest of family, including brothers/fathers trim/shave), but I feel as if the symbol is only the hair on my head. I feel this is intrinsic, because I could shave, and I would think nothing of it...someone could "bribe" me into shaving...but for head-hair, it could never be done, and I could never live with myself with cut-hair. 
Some may call this societal-conditioning, but I am not sure...I have not found  an answer to the problem yet. Its just off experience. 

Most likely its just weakness on my part, because growing up in high school (I just graduated)...keeping a beard was much harder than keeping a turban. 

And if people take the "evolutionary lines" of the 5 K's and claim that the turban is almost essential to Sikh males. Then the 5 K's have also evolved for sikh women and become only head-hair as kesh.


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## S|kH (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*



			
				Singhstah said:
			
		

> keski is kakkar
> so yes women and men are required to keep their hair and dastar
> 
> proof?
> ...



Guru Gobind's words are greater than any of those sources. If you wish to study the Khalsa's creation and symbols, go directly to the creator of the Khalsa. There is more than enough evidence and statements by Guru Gobind stating Kesh as the kakkar, and not Keski. 

Please, stick off this propaganda by other "groups/sects" whatever you want to call them.


EDIT : that 2nd link in the quote is hilarious. Everyone should read it for a good laugh.


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## Arvind (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*



			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> Can you get evidence for that basis?


Dear S|kh ji,

No, I dont have any.


> turban is the crown of a Singh, and he said something along the lines of "Putting the crown over your kesh". After the statement, Guru Gobind tied a pugh only over his head hair and not the rest of his body.


Purpose of turban is to crown hair kesh. On the other hand, turban is not meant to be worn for wherever one finds Kesh. Hope you get the difference in these two things. Tying turban for every kesh or veil etc are NOT valid reasoning towards this. Sikhs are required NOT to do any rom be-adbee, that comes out to be all bodily unshorn hair. At the same time, turban is around hair kesh. Guru ji asked all to wear the crown and NO rom be-adbee. Kindly see the difference in these two things.

I am not intending to force anything on you, but this is what I have learnt till now, and I look forward to learning via Gurumat and saadh sangat.

Regards.


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## Arvind (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*



			
				Prabjyot Kaur said:
			
		

> Now if you would like to discuss each kakkar separately, let us make separate thread for each. Keski for women has been discussed before; it will be nice to see Punjabi women crowned with Turban but there are lot of other vices in our Punjabi Society that we have to get over with first.


Guru Fateh Kaur ji,

Nice to see your active presence in the discussion.

Yes, even I look forward to discussion on each kakaar separately. Its significance. Also would like to extend that - how to explain the meaning to a non-sikh. Relevance and need of that in present times. How good or acceptable are the changes in that. I mean, anything/issue which comes to our mind while working in our professional fields, or saadh sangat, about the kakaar. Such discussion would be really helpful.

As you might have observed, we are trying to keep the forum member-driven, and had introduced a poll which included a vital thrust area - 

SPN should make efforts to increase women participation in SPN Discussion Forums and but how ? - 13.24%

This appears to be one of the top priority as a society. I brought forward this point, as you mentioned about existing vices, which take a front seat compared to other issue like turban by women. I request you to throw more light on those things. At least we readers, who come to these forums for learning can make sure, that such things are taken care of in our own lives.

Best Regards.


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## S|kH (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*



			
				Sevadaar Singh said:
			
		

> Dear S|kh ji,
> 
> No, I dont have any.
> 
> ...



Hm, see the quote that I was referring to was that Guru Gobind uttered something along the lines of use the crown to cover your kesh, and then covered his *kesh* with the turban.

You are analyzing his statement that he said use the crown to cover your head kesh...which would be head hair.

As to what he really did say, I am not sure...hence why im not putting anything into quotes.

I did not mean that Guru Gobind should have said "cover kesh" and put on a veil...im saying, if he wanted to say, cover ur kesh, and kesh = all hairs, than...would he have not covered more than just his head with the turban? 

Personally, I think we need a Sikh scholar in this discussion for this one. This requires historical detail and accuracy.


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## S|kH (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Another thing :
You said the purpose of the turban is to cover the "hair kesh". 

Now, I think Guru Gobind stated that the Singh should cover his kesh with the turban, and proceeded to do so by only covering his head hair. So, the purpose of the turban would have been to cover kesh...which is only upon the head. 

I hope that clears up some of the mess I posted in my post above.


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## Arvind (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

((( Personally, I think we need a Sikh scholar in this discussion for this one. This requires historical detail and accuracy. )))

Haanji, thats one of core thrust area for this fourm. Pls see poll in this site for this. I myself would like to have such kind of events sooner, so that learned people can explain the importance of things. At the same time, we all can do our homework in present discussions before getting into those 'actual' discussions with Sikh scholars.

Regards.


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## Gurpreet Kaur (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

I have heard that the word Kesh is a Sanskrit word which is translated to mean the hair on the head specifically, also it is the definition given in the Mahan Kosh.


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## etinder (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

what i feel is that kesh is among the five kakaars but that doesnt constitue other hairs, but regarding the other hairs it comes under rehaitnamas about "roman di beadabi" nahin kurni..


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## Hukum Kaur (Jul 11, 2005)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

About the kesh and the turbans, the turbans are to protect ones hair, and to cover it from the damaging rays of the sun. Turbans cover the sun spot so that that energy can go downwards therefore stimmulating the Kundulini energy upwards. Without a headcovering of cotton, imbalences of the electromagnetic field are more probable. Hair is very sensitive, he hair on ones legs are antenas just like the hair on ones head. The hair under the arms, is how the body communicates to the mind about diet and if one is eating properly. A persons natural odor is very important for knowing weather or not one is healthy and knowing weather or not one can be trusted. (However the nails should be cut as a sighn of grooming and self maintnance, not to let nature take over.) As a side note, but equally important, one should avoid heavy cologn and strong deoderants, for this interferes with the communication of youre body.

Sat Naam, Liv Kaur


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

Per Mahan Kosh (the defacto dictionary of Sikhism). Kesh means "hair on the head". Hair all over the body are called "rome", so, by definition, Kesh = "rome" on head.

There are other evidence too in that direction

Awsw mhlw 5 ]
  Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: 
siqguru Apnw sd sdw sm@wry ] 
I contemplate, forever and ever, the True Guru; 
gur ky crn kys sMig Jwry ]1] 
with my hair, I dust the feet of the Guru. ||1|| ​ 
​ 


Here, "Kesh" refer to the hair on head..

Another referense to Kesh
 gUjrI mhlw 5 ]
  Goojaree, Fifth Mehl: 
kir ikrpw Apnw drsu dIjY jsu gwvau inis Aru Bor ] 
Show Mercy to me, and grant me the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. I sing Your Praises night and day.
  kys sMig dws pg Jwrau iehY mnorQ mor ]1] 
With my hair, I wash the feet of Your slave; this is my life's purpose. ||1|| 
​ 
Regards,


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## rooh (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: 5 ks for women*

*May i just ask, what god or spirituality has to do with your bodily hair?   Tell me, if God resides in everyone, does he love anybody less becasue they have a shaved head ? You are forgetting the bigger picture and the main goal in Sikhi.*


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 14, 2005)

Dear rooh - Keeping your hair is not related with getting close to God. Sikhs keep their hair because that's what their Guru told them to. By definition a "Sikh" is a student and "Guru" is a teacher. A sikh is supposed to follow the Guru's teaching. Doe sit make sense?

Regards,


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## kaur-1 (Aug 28, 2006)

If a women has excessive facial hair, I dont see why she can't remove it.

A practising Sikh women should not cut her kesh/head hair ever but if her facial hair is due to excessive abnormal hormone production, I cant see why she should not be able to remove it. 

It doesnt make her a lesser Sikh.!!

Das believe's that "Rom Rom" is an expression not saying that we therefore should not cut our excessive facial hair (for women that is).

Keeping kesh(for practicing Sikh men & women) and long beard (for men not women!) is a Khalsa identity.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 15, 2006)

lol i kinda have the same thing going i have a heavy kara so there are less hair on my right wrist... but that is not shaving or cutting of hair so its not beadbi/disrespect

etinder .. the thing is that there is a word in punjabi _kesh_ with means hair so going to sanskrit to find out the meaning is unnecessary 

as for women and shaving of body hair - why do they do it?
-to look attractive
-to be acceptied
-and FINALY TO LOOK ATTRACTIVE

if you look at it from a teenagers point of view ... yes, it becomes "important" to remove body hair so she can be accepted and look "good" 
i think this issue of removing body hair is also slowly becoming an issue for guys

the only way we can get rid of this feeling is to set an image in the media of pure sikhs that are like everyone else (cool, the hero, gangster type(thinking of "Wolverine" style mentality, etc) and still be sikhs this will make the youth feel more comfortable being sikhs
if ur wondering where i am getting this from then read on
in almost EVERY film the *hero* is clean shaven and has almost no hair on the body and the heroine has no body hair
*models*... do i need to explain?


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## max314 (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: 5 ks for women*



			
				etinder said:
			
		

> but one thing i failed to understand that why women do it,is it to conform to the modern beauty standards that they have to shave or get rid of body hairs et al..
> or some other factors like peer pressure, look and feel good factor ..
> i wud like to know the views of the sangat on this and more from women members..



This is obviously a very sensitive issue, so I'll try and be as careful as I can.

I don't personally think that women's bodies/faces is an example of "modern beauty standards".  Whilst body hair for men seems to go in and out of 'fashion' depending on the decade, I think that women without hair on their bodies or faces have always been considered beautiful.  It's the reason that men have beards and women don't.  Hair on women just isn't attractive, and this is not - in my view - simply a trend.



			
				kaur-1 said:
			
		

> If a women has excessive facial hair, I dont see why she can't remove it.
> 
> A practising Sikh women should not cut her kesh/head hair ever but if her facial hair is due to excessive abnormal hormone production, I cant see why she should not be able to remove it.
> 
> ...



I happent to agree with you.  Keeping hair isn't really something that increases your spirituality.  It's simply an image that represents something.

I'm a fond believer in the saying that "pride taken too far is foolishness".  And 'pride' should always be an enemy for any Khalsa.


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## soon2bkaur (Jun 27, 2011)

As a new person to the Sikh faith, this is certainly a challenge for me. Since I have found the Sikh faith, I have not shaved. My husband does not really like it, not because of what it looks like, but the result of not shaving. I have a skin problem on my legs and arms, that when new hair grows in, I break out because the hair follicle gets infected. When I shave my arms and legs (and other areas), I do not break out. My dermatologist has mentioned electrolysis because she says it will help. I am growing out my head hair but is still very short since it was basically shaved (had to recover from a bad haircut), I am ok with my head hair growing, as I will never alter it again, but what can I do about my legs and arms. Also, society pressures. I live in Florida in the U.S., where the trendiest (and rudest) people seem to be, also, the summers are so hot that wearing pants while outside makes for a very uncomfortable outing. I can't go swimming because of the viscous looks that people give (tried it already). But, I am trying to keep my faith.... are there any other women who have succeeded in keeping leg and arm hair? How do you cope? Can you still shave if you have not taken Amrit, or is this a requirement for all Sikh’s?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 27, 2011)

soon2bkaurji, 

My advice would be to start from the inside and work your way to the outside, you will eventually get to the point where you really could not care less what people think at the swimming pool. 

I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I feel there are way too many physically perfect sikhs who concentrate only on the appearance of a sikh, whilst giving little regard to the spiritual side. I am sure if you focus on the spirit and let it filter out, you will find that helps you with the social side of looking like a woman singh 

Just so you know, I have the same problem in reverse. I would like to wear a turban and grow my hair out, but have decided to wait until I feel I am worthy of that honour, in a turban I look like a respectable sikh gentleman, and no one gives me a second glance, without it, I look like a fat bald buffoon with massive hamster cheeks.....and yes small kids point and laugh at me:angryyoungkaur:


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2011)

soon2bkaur ji

In a few weeks I will have no hair. Chemotherapy starts soon. The issue of dastar, on or off, will not be a problem for me. What is under my scalp ... my attitude... becomes my challenge. Maintaining chardi kala and Waheguru sahal will get me through all questions of identity. Identity begins in the heart. Henry Haller ji speaks with the wisdom of years of pondering any and every question that can or will come up. Hold my hand. That is the nature of true sangat...to be ready to embrace every individual dilemma within its fold. 

The kakkars tell the world you are a Sikh. You must believe you are a Sikh for any of that to be authentically you. Do you feel yourself a Sikh? You are.


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## Ishna (Mar 3, 2015)

soon2bkaur Ji, perhaps visit a different dermatologist?  You current one seems to be preoccupied with treating the symptoms and not finding a cure.  It may be that you need to exfoliate your skin regularly to help all the hairs grow out or maybe you have a germ on your skin which is infecting the new follicle as it grows or something.  Definately follow it up with another dermatologist.

If you don't want to wear pants, try long skirts.  You can get nice light summery skirts which will protect your skin from the sun as well as keeping your leg hairs private.

I'm with Harry Ji, the further along the Sikh path you go, the more you realise you've evolved with hairs like this so why fight it when there is no harm in just leaving it there?  It is only man-made society which dictates we should be removing something completely natural.

I've got all my kesh (much to my husband's disgust also!) but my hairs are very fair.  It's easy with forward planning -- choosing clothes which don't show off your arm pits and leg hair.


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