# Forced To Wed: 'They Think They're Doing What's Best For The Child'



## spnadmin (Nov 14, 2009)

*Forced to wed: 'They think they're doing what's best for the child'*

*Rescue in Punjab shows disturbing tradition is alive in Canada*
Raveena Aulakh                                                                                                  Staff Reporter   


Photo: Sandeep Chand, 34, has been coerced into marriage twice.

                                                                                                                                                            When no one was around, Jassi Kaur quietly slipped into her niece's room, where the 19-year-old woman sat huddled in a corner sobbing.

 Angry relatives had confronted her for one reason: she had a boyfriend. 

"It was awful," Kaur recalls. She cradled the girl, told her everything would be fine. 
It wasn't. 

Weeks later, in January, the entire clan – which resides in a sprawling house in Brampton – flew to Punjab, India's northern province. Within days, the Grade 12 student was married to a man she had never met before. 

Sandeep Chand, 34, a manager of client care for a bank in Victoria, B.C., has been forcibly married twice (see accompanying story). 

"I hear stories like that almost every day," says Deepa Mattoo, a community legal worker at the South Asian Legal Clinic in Toronto. "The surprising thing is that many parents believe there's nothing wrong with it ... they think they are doing what is the best for their child." 

Forced marriages have garnered little attention in this country. But the plight of Canadian teen Hardeep Flora, who two weeks ago fought her way back to Canada after contacting consulate officials in India, has suddenly cast a spotlight on a deeply hidden form of abuse. 

In Flora's case, the 19-year-old had been whisked away by family to Punjab where her money and travel documents were taken away. She was told she couldn't leave until she was married. A phone call to the Canadian consulate led to a dramatic rescue. 

Every year, dozens of young Canadian girls, and occasionally boys, are forced into marriages, social workers say. Mattoo, who has been working with the South Asian legal clinic for three years, sees at least two dozen cases annually. 

A majority involve families of South Asian origin, but girls have also been taken back to the Middle East or African nations like Sudan and Egypt, and coerced into marriage. 

"It's a cross-cultural and cross-racial issue," says Zahra Dhanani, legal director for the Metropolitan Action Committee on Violence Against Women and Children. "It's all about power, control and dominance ... It might happen more among South Asians, but I have had clients from Nigeria, South Africa, Europe and even WASP-y Canadians." 

Dhanani cites the marriages of underage members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Bountiful, B.C., as an example of forced marriage among Caucasians. 

The most common motive is preservation of culture. "Parents think if they marry their daughter off to someone who was born and raised in, say, Pakistan, it will help preserve the culture," says Mattoo. "What they don't understand is that they are wreaking havoc on their kids' lives." 

Some parents see it as carrying on a long-standing tradition of arranged marriage – whether the kids agree to it or not. Mattoo tells people an arranged marriage is one where you have a choice; in a forced marriage you have no choice.

Forced marriage can also be a matter of family honour. "It's acceptable if the son is dating someone, but God save you if you, a girl, have a boyfriend," says Amandeep Kaur, manager of Punjabi Community Health Services. 

"It's totally unacceptable."

*HARVINDER SIDHU*, a long-haul truck driver from Brampton, says he and his 21-year-old girlfriend were engaged to be married two years ago. The wedding date was set, cards designed and a banquet hall booked for the occasion. 

"My girlfriend and I were really excited," says Sidhu, 25. "We had even checked out some apartments in Mississauga."

Then his girlfriend and her parents went on an unexpected trip to India. When they returned a month later, Sidhu's girlfriend was married. "I just spoke to her once after that," he says. "She says she was coerced into getting married. Her father was unwell and put pressure on her to marry someone in the same caste." 

A common _modus operandi_ is for the family to take the girl to their native country under some pretext. Once there, she is pressured into marrying a man the family has chosen. Some see their husbands for the first time on their engagement or wedding day. 

Earlier this year, schoolteachers in England were urged to be aware of signs of possible forced marriages, since schools and colleges are often the only places where a potential victim can speak freely.

In 2005, England set up a Forced Marriage Unit, run jointly by the Home Office and Foreign Office. It received 1,600 reports of forced marriages last year, and intervened in 420 cases. A specialized British team has launched secret rescue missions to bring home victims held captive by their families abroad. 

The unit also runs shelters in New Delhi, India; Lahore, Pakistan; and Dhaka, Bangladesh, among other cities in the world. 

"We have a lot of work to do yet before clamouring for a similar unit," says Ritu Chokshi, coordinator of the South Asian Legal Clinic's forced marriages project, which started in 2005. 

Its advisory board includes members of the federal departments of justice, foreign affairs and international trade. "If we put emphasis on prevention, there's a lot we can achieve." 

The federal justice department has researched cases involving forced marriage in Western Canada. A similar study has been done in Montreal and Toronto but results have not been released, says spokesperson Carole Saindon.

Chokshi and Mattoo organize workshops to help parents and children understand the concepts of honour and marriage. Depending on circumstances, Mattoo advises young girls to fight if they are being forced into marriage. "But if I think the woman is in mortal danger, I advise her to lay low, get married and get back to Canada quickly." 

Once here, she tells them not to file sponsorship papers for the husband. If the papers have already been filed, her advice is to withdraw them. Meantime, she tries to get the marriage annulled or start divorce proceedings. 

But in the past year Mattoo has noticed a disturbing trend. "I've seen that many girls forced into marriages are brought back when they are pregnant," ensuring they don't leave their new husbands once back in Canada. 

Firdaus Ali, of the Alliance for South Asian AIDS Prevention in Toronto, says forced marriage isn't just a heterosexual issue. Gays and lesbians are also forced into matrimony because parents believe it will "cure them of the disease." 

The results are tragic. "It leads to turmoil, mental health issues and even depression." The worst, says Ali, is not being able to tell anyone "because of the shame factor."

Because the situation involves family members, rarely do victims of a forced marriage press charges, says Manjit Mangat, a Brampton lawyer.
He recalls a particularly angry Brampton man who once turned to him for help. His 19-year-old girlfriend had been travelling in Pakistan when her parents suddenly announced she was getting married. The girl escaped and returned to Toronto, but would not press charges.

 "I don't understand that but I guess that's our culture," says Mangat. "That is among other things that has to change. You just cannot accept what happens to you." 

Jassi Kaur's niece, now 20, is back in Canada. She has filed sponsorship papers for her new husband, still in India but waiting to join her. Kaur says there is little she can do for that niece. But now she worries for the young woman's sister.

 She doesn't think she can stand by and watch another forced marriage in the family. 

"I can't see it happening a second time," she said.


Forwarded by Tejwant Singh ji Malik.


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## kds1980 (Nov 14, 2009)

Well the cases here written are wrong but in certain circumstances forcing a person who is mature could benefit in long run

I have  dad's younger sister (bhua) who did not married.We use to live in big joint family
with grandmother's sister too who did not have any child and she was more their daughter.
at the right age she refused to get married and both the parents did not put enough pressure they told her that joint family was living could break and then what will she do
but still she did not agreed.to fill the social life she always showered loved on neices and on nephews.but as predicted by elders joint family broke down and each of us went in our own ways.Today at 58  she is living a life which is very bad only 2 rooms no one to talk.
Thank god she has good health and goes to Gurdwara regularly but again aging process in going on.All her nephews and neices are busy or have problems and our main responsibility is still toward our natural parents first but still i try my best to help her.At the time of death of elders in our family they only had one tension what will happen to their daughter after them and they were right.


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## spnadmin (Nov 14, 2009)

kanwardeep ji

There are so many stories of elderly men and women left alone after a family starts to die off. My husband's  mother's brother is the same . He never married and lived with his sister (mother of my husband). When she died he lived with the second sister. When she died he was completely alone. He became socially isolated and listened to television day and night. He kept a heavy tool box near the front door to block anyone from getting in. So when my husband would visit him twice a week, then he had to break in through the back door. Uncle would never answer the phone -- so it was impossible to let him know that anyone was going to visit. Once in the house, then Uncle would start yelling at my huband-- What are you doing here? As he got older and very sick, he refused to move in with us nor with my husband's brother and his wife. It is not good to be alone. Over time the mind and body rapidly wear down. 

But yes -- these cases are wrong. People do extreme things from fear.


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## kds1980 (Nov 14, 2009)

Narayanjot ji

I don't have any knowledge of life in USA .But in India majority of people keep living with their sons upto their last breath and it is one of the main reason for conflict in familes and main reason for demand of boys too.In the case I mentioned to be honest no one want's her to be with him or her .Some have financial,health problem and some don't have any intention.In India In the old age no one can take place of spouse and their own children.They are your best insurance for old age


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## Lee (Nov 16, 2009)

To 'force' anybody to do any thing they have no wish to do is wrong really.

Having said that however there is much sense in familes looking after each other.  
before I became Sikh I really gave no thought as to what my mum and dad would do or how they would live in their old age.  Now I intend to have one of them stay with me and my wife.

I would have both, ahhh but they have been divorced for many years now and hardly see each other, so I would not wish to cause them any embarresment by putting them back together.

I would like to say although it still causes me some problems, sorting just what is Sikhi and what is Indian cultrure, from my faith I am very gald indeed to take on board this aspect of culture, it makes sense, it is humanitrian, and sadly it seems to be something we have largely lost over here in the UK.


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## spnadmin (Nov 16, 2009)

Lee ji and Kanwardeep ji

This conversation raises many interesting things about life in different cultures. More and more in the US parents refuse to move in with their children. It means giving up independence and control. Control over how they spend their time, control over having their own space, control over money, and many other things. It is difficult to encourage them to rely on someone else, or see how their health prevents them from truly independent living. For the parents a child is always a child -- no matter how old, wealthy or well-employed. You are always a child and there is no way they will allow a "child" to make decisions for them. This leads to many difficult scenarios where the older parent insists on independence and is left alone by their own choice and at risk, and other scenarios where they in the end have no choice but to change their lifestyle to something less independent. A lot of heart-ache for everyone involved.


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## Sikh royalist (Nov 17, 2009)

kanwardeep singh ji
you may not be aware of another India in which children's show their parents the way out of house i first saw such old mens when i was a kid and was on a visit to an old age home near my house i could never understand why did their children's took this step i can never imagine to do so from birth parents take so much of pain to raise their kids a mother would sleep without having a bread but not without giving one to her kids
i don't think we can ever even give 1% of what we get from our parents.
your bhua is still lucky at least she didn't had to regret that she married gave birth to kids and they did so bad with her it can be any way it is the lords will and it is good she is close to the guru the guru will help her.

the worst forced marriage that i know about was in the case of my uncle fathers younger brother he too like me was a clean shaved Sikh he liked a girl the girl loved him too but there was certainly a problem don't know exactly the matter has never been discussed in the family the girl was either from a different caste or may be she was from different religion my grandparents refused to accept her and fixed my uncles marriage to another girl from our community and so did the girls parents the girl committed suicide a day before her marriage with the boy of her parents choice that gave a big shock to my uncle i have never seen him being too much of happy although he married had kids but i don't think he was ever happy after all this happened.


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## Lee (Nov 17, 2009)

Sikh royalist said:


> kanwardeep singh ji
> you may not be aware of another India in which children's show their parents the way out of house i first saw such old mens when i was a kid and was on a visit to an old age home near my house i could never understand why did their children's took this step i can never imagine to do so from birth parents take so much of pain to raise their kids a mother would sleep without having a bread but not without giving one to her kids
> i don't think we can ever even give 1% of what we get from our parents.
> your bhua is still lucky at least she didn't had to regret that she married gave birth to kids and they did so bad with her it can be any way it is the lords will and it is good she is close to the guru the guru will help her.
> ...


 

SikhRoyalist ji,

that is very interesting, thanks for shareing.

What I brought to my mind is that this relationship between parent and child, it goes both ways. 

To your mind it is beyond understanding why a child should put his parents out of his house, as the parents sacrifce so much for their children.  You are right we cannot even begin to pay them back for all that they have done for us, we cannot contemplate the causeing of pain to them.

Yet this causeing of pain must also go the other way.  To me it is beyond understanding also.  Why would parents force their chidlren to marry somebody that they have no wish to marry?  Why would they cause such pain?


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## Sikh royalist (Nov 17, 2009)

because they feel they are doing their best


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## Lee (Nov 17, 2009)

Sikh royalist said:


> because they feel they are doing their best


 

Heh yes indeed, although it was rather a rhetorical question, thank you for taking the time to answer it.

It can be a hard line we parents tread sometimes.  My kids don't like doing what I ask of them many times, but the diffeance between a teenage son rebeling about doing the washing up, and an adult son telling me 'No I have no wish to marry this woman.'  Well it's obviouse really.

At what age or time of life are our children to make their own decisions for their own lives?  That is not a rhetorical question my friend!


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## kds1980 (Nov 17, 2009)

> kanwardeep singh ji
> you may not be aware of another India in which children's show their parents the way out of house i first saw such old mens when i was a kid and was on a visit to an old age home near my house i could never understand why did their children's took this step i can never imagine to do so from birth parents take so much of pain to raise their kids a mother would sleep without having a bread but not without giving one to her kids



That is the reason smart old parents keep property in their name upto their death.You may be very well that even a small house or flat cost in millions these days.So even if son's don't want to take care of parents they have to O/W their name will be out from the will.even still 80-90% old persons are with their children in India .




> your bhua is still lucky at least she didn't had to regret that she married gave birth to kids and they did so bad with her it can be any way it is the lords will and it is good she is close to the guru the guru will help her.



She is close to Guru as long as her health is ok 
On the other hand my parents and other relatives are with their children .Living much better life than her.You and other can say positive but still the reality is she is suffering because of her own decision and She also made her parents suffer as they were worried what will happen to her after their death.


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## jasi (Nov 17, 2009)

*Wahe Gur Ji Ka Khalsa  Wahe Guru Ji ke Fateh.*

*To all my Sikh brothers and sisters. The most important thing is we have 16 years of our children  to enrich the basic values to teach which will help them to make their own decisions on all aspect of their lives.*

*After 16 years let the grown up teenage decide their own fate in choosing their directions .Yes by all means we can guide them disregard of any cast system basis but of their according to their choices. We are all human being who are blessed with nature to fall in love or liking each others to decide ourselves to spend the rest of life with that partner.*

*But parental foundation will be definitely a factor which will play a roll in  their decisions making at that time.*

*Parents at that point make it sure that they respect the decision taken by their adults sons and daughters under their guidance's. *

*Sikhism is enriched with respect for all regardless of age or any cast.*
*
*

*But still illiteracy,cast system and classicism plays a great role to force some one to marry with their own choices.*

*We are still suffering from a cancer like a castism's among all the silkhs who boast themselves  to be called sikhs..*


*Jaspi*
*Canada
*



Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Well the cases here written are wrong but in certain circumstances forcing a person who is mature could benefit in long run
> 
> I have dad's younger sister (bhua) who did not married.We use to live in big joint family
> with grandmother's sister too who did not have any child and she was more their daughter.
> ...


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## gurprit_gujral (Nov 17, 2009)

The fault lies with the parents. That the girl fell in love with someone and did not confide with the parents shows the lack of communication between the girl and her parents. The child should be made to realise ( not coerced/forced) what is good and what is bad for her. In any case, in my opinion, she should not be married forcibly.

Gurprit


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## kds1980 (Nov 18, 2009)

> The child should be made to realise ( not coerced/forced) what is good and what is bad for her. In any case, in my opinion, she should not be married forcibly.



In majority of cases the major Force is disowning the children specially the girls.I don't think that there is any law anywhere any country where parents cannot disown their Adult children.If children have right to disobey their parents then parents do have a right to disown them.


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## Lee (Nov 18, 2009)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> In majority of cases the major Force is disowning the children specially the girls.I don't think that there is any law anywhere any country where parents cannot disown their Adult children.If children have right to disobey their parents then parents do have a right to disown them.


 

Yes they certianly do, although I can think of no action that would make any loving parent do so.


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## jasi (Nov 18, 2009)

Yes ,your comments are 100% right. But the basic problems is the illiteracy among our  people and uneducated priests to convey the best teachings to the Sangat at large.

People are left with clear cut awareness of democratic rights and individuals respects.

Jaspi





gurprit_gujral said:


> The fault lies with the parents. That the girl fell in love with someone and did not confide with the parents shows the lack of communication between the girl and her parents. The child should be made to realise ( not coerced/forced) what is good and what is bad for her. In any case, in my opinion, she should not be married forcibly.
> 
> Gurprit



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## Sikh royalist (Nov 18, 2009)

Lee said:


> At what age or time of life are our children to make their own decisions for their own lives? That is not a rhetorical question my friend!


 

ah i can answer any question at lest i can try to

well for parents kids are kids they always think their children's need their suggestion and it is not that all forced marriages are failure sometimes they are successful time heals everything.in our Indian society such decisions are taken by parents only and i don't think it is bad as long as they dont go against you.


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## Rajbinder35 (Nov 18, 2009)

I have read this with interest because I am UK born sikh and was forced to marry at the age of 19 to a 26 year old man.  It was difficult because I wanted to go out and have boyfriends etc, however my family were very strict, and I married the man my father selected. I lived my life being told exactly what to do before marriage and whilst I did resist the pressure was so much reluctantly I agreed in the end.  Today at the age of 37 today I am delighted that I married my husband and I love him dearly and have a very happy relationship with him.  I also have two beautiful sons aged 17 & 15.

We have lived with his mother for the duration of our marriage.  She insists we all live by her rules however her mindset is still in the punjab in the 1960s.  I personally stopped being bothered by what she says or does following the sudden death of my father 8 years ago.  I decided life was too short and just to please myself because it is impossible to please her with all her demands.  

My husband on the other hand has been in turmoil for a years and is torn between doing what his mother wants or living his life the way he wants to.  He has asked me on many occassions to walk out with the kids to teach her, however I have refused to do this.  He has said to me that he knows exactly how people get depressed and other associated issues.  I have never asked him to move out and leave his mother, as far as I am concerned he is a grown adult and needs to make whatever decisions he wants to and I will support him.   However he will never leave her because he is the only son.

Now my son is 17 and wanting to go out and experience life. My husband is insisting that my son my marries a sikh and lives at home with us, however I do not want anyone living with me because I know how it feels to be an outsider in someone elses house, and I do not want to make anyone feel the way I have felt living with my mother in law.

I have seen the situation from all angles and I feel that parents must let their children live their lives.

If parents want their children to marry strangers from the punjab then they should have stayed there and not left India then we all would have lived happily in India having arranged marriages.  

Parents should let their children live their lives and whilst my forced marriage has turned into a nice happy ending.  I know I am the one in a million and I do thank god for that, however I do pity all the people who are not as lucky as me.


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## spnadmin (Nov 18, 2009)

Rajbinder ji

It is so very calming to read your words -- words of someone who has found her center and is peaceful in the eye of many a storm or squall. One thing -- completely off topic -- that I picked up. Do go back to the statement "he knows exactly how people get depressed" and maybe have a talk with your husband. Is he trying to tell you he wants to talk about this?


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## Rajbinder35 (Nov 19, 2009)

Dear Narayanjot 

I have talked to my husband many times over the years and I know exactly what my husband wants me to do.  He wants me to tell him/make him/force him leave his mother and then everyone can blame me for whatever happens to her and him.

I have explained to him many times that if I ever leave him it will be because I am actually going to leave him.  I refuse to play the power game of frightening his mother to look at her actions, then returning to play happy families and make life easier for my husband.   Also what type of message would this behaviour send to my sons?

Of course if there was anything within my control to make my husbands life easier I would do it. But it is all out of my control, so I just try and live a happy life.


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## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2009)

> If parents want their children to marry strangers from the punjab then they should have stayed there and not left India then we all would have lived happily in India having arranged marriages.



Rajbinder ji

What you have written is the dilemma of almost every good man, Wife or parents.It does not matter whether It is India or abroad.Earlier The girls always used to obey the in laws
and expected that when they will become mother in laws their daughter in law will obey them but from 80s things changed rapidly,If a man is with his wife then he is considered as slave of wife and if he is with parents then he is considered as wife oppressor


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## spnadmin (Nov 19, 2009)

Rajbinder ji

Then your husband is a very fortunate man! God bless both of you. 
:star:


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## Atheist (Nov 22, 2009)

I was raised by Sikh parents who are incredibly religious.  I used to embrace everything about Sikhism but then later realized I was just as blinded as any other religious fanatic - christians, jews, mormons alike.  There are many good philosophical teachings of Sikhi, but the dogma and theology of all religions has led me to my atheism.  

Forced arranged marriages obviously have more than one reason, but for people like us it almost always goes back to religion.  Religious customs/practices/law whatever you want to call it teaches Sikhs that marriages should be arranged and as the title suggests the parents will always say they are doing what's best for their children.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The parents are doing what's best for themselves and using religion as an excuse to commit child abuse (I don't care if it's an adult child either, it's still abuse).

Forcing someone to marry someone else is a barbaric ritual and stems from religion, and this is one of many reasons I chose atheism.  Imagine, a life free from dogma, fear, and meaningless guilt (notice I said meaningless - there is a such thing as meaningful guilt too).  Feeling guilty because you married someone of your choosing or your cut your hair or broke some other ritualistic rule is all too common in our world.  It is astonishing that parents these days force their children to marry someone of their choosing because it suits them (the parents).  This is all because of religion.  

Let's do away with "religion" and embrace philosophical ideas and moral concepts that are the result of critical reasoning.  Yes, I know the fanatics will say "you can't use reasoning to figure out God and his ways etc." - what a convenient excuse to hide behind religious dogma that causes suffering felt when you are forced to marry someone of your parents' choosing.  Seeing articles like this only further reinforces my atheism.  

I welcome your criticisms.


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## kds1980 (Nov 22, 2009)

> Forcing someone to marry someone else is a barbaric ritual and stems from religion, and this is one of many reasons I chose atheism. Imagine, a life free from dogma, fear, and meaningless guilt (notice I said meaningless - there is a such thing as meaningful guilt too)



Majority of sikhs are Jatts and many of them forces their children to marry other Jatts
similarly many urban khatri's marry their children with khatri hindu's instead of other sikhs.
could you please tell me where it is written in sikhism that jatt sikhs should marry jatts


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## Atheist (Nov 22, 2009)

The barbaric ritual stems from religion but it also stems from human stupidity.  Sikhi does teach us GurSikhs who have taken Amrit should marry other GurSikhs.  And it also teaches us that we should honor our parents (my parents go so far as to claim that it teaches us we should listen to and obey our parents - not sure if I can find you the exact quote for that).  So when people see these rules they do exactly what you are saying - the jatts force their kids to marry other jatts and _justify it with religion.  _So even if those jatts you speak of aren't GurSikh (some would argue then that they are not Sikh a all), they are using this concept from Sikhi whether they know it or not to force their kids to marry other kids (and they are using tribalism to carry it one step further and saying that they must also be jatt sikhs too).  Look at the trends - it happens so much more in Sikh/Hindu families than it does in atheist/agnostic or christian families.  Yes part of it is cultural too, but where does the culture come from?  In India, culture and religion are virtually inseparable.  There has to be some reason why forced marriages occur more in Sikh/Hindu families than others.

Sikhi says to abolish caste altogether, so "jatts" shouldn't even exist - this comes from human stupidity.  So religion + human stupidity = barbaric rituals.  I of course agree this happens significantly less in Sikh/Hindu traditions than, say, Catholic traditions.

So, even if it doesn't explicitly say "thou shall marry another jatt if thou is a jatt" people use religion as a justification for it, and since GurSikhs are supposed to marry GurSikhs it's a convenient way for people to use religion to get their kids to marry someone they would like.  

You can call it whatever you want or use any example you want, whether it's jatts forced to marry other jatts or kathris to hindu kathris to preserve the caste, but if it weren't for religion and we lived in secular societies this type of barbarism wouldn't occur.  I'm sure there are mormons who coerce their kids to marry other mormons.  I'm not sure whether or not it says in the Book of Mormon that it must be that way, but it's because of religion that parents get this idea in their head in the first place.

Can we blame the people or the religion?  My take is that religion inhibits free thought and critical thinking.  Religion teaches us to be automatons so that people cling to tradition and it's hard for them to break free.  I say we blame both religion and human stupidity.  Hope that answers your questions (which by the way was a good one).


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## spnadmin (Nov 22, 2009)

Atheist ji

There are two things about your comments that impress me very much. 



You are probably the first person I have ever encountered that pointed out that it takes religion + human stupidity to wreak havoc on generation after generation of minds and lives. Usually I read that it is all the fault of religion. You have given a fresh slant.
You have been able to express a secular point of view without being over-bearing, and without being sarcastic and juvenile. How I like to read that!
Some things you say I agree with. Other things you say I do not agree with. But I sure like the way you said all of it. Wish you the best.


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## Atheist (Nov 22, 2009)

I thank you for your compliments.  On the topic of marriage, here's another gem of wisdom from our judeo-christian friends:

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 (New International Version) 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-5491">20</sup> If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-5492">21</sup> she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.


So basically, according to the bible, if your wife is found to not be a virgin when you marry her, you can stone her to death (not only that, you're actually righteous for doing it)!


Wow religion has sure opened my eyes to such wisdom.  Anyway, good luck in your endeavors as well


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## spnadmin (Nov 22, 2009)

Atheist ji

Among some Christian cults in the Middle East this still happens. Members of the Jewish faith have moved beyond it. Now we are in the post-Deuteronomy period. And a stoning happened last year as a matter of fact in northern Iraq by members of a Christian/Yezzidi town. That makes your point very well. Stoning has an ancient history that crosses cultures and was even found among ancient Greeks and Egyptians who were neither Jews, nor Muslims, nor Christians. But today, several thousands of years later, Jews do not stone, but we see that Muslims in some countries under Sharia do , others do not, and some cultures that are Christian stone women, and others do not.

Religion + human stupidity.

http://www.aina.org/news/20070425181603.htm

I am adding this link - and will post it soon. This is a synopsis of honor killings among various Christian groups and others. 
http://lawiscool.com/2008/01/04/anver-emon-on-honour-killings/


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## Atheist (Nov 22, 2009)

I appreciate your further insight into this matter.  Spread the word


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## Satyaban (Nov 23, 2009)

Namaste

The book of Deut. is in the Old Testament of the Bible and the Torah. It is my understanding that Jesus was "The new wine" meaning that the old laws were negated and replaced by his teachings.

There are some pretty extreme Christian sects in this country. Some dance with rattle snakes and drink {censored}nic believing their belief will protect them. Some of get bit and some die but not many.

I have not heard of any stoning or honor killings among Jews or Christians but I guess there are some whose culture is so deep that they carry on.

Peace


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## Lee (Nov 23, 2009)

Atheist Ji,

I like Atheists, I also like Christians, I have many Sikh freinds, some few Hindu and Muslims I can count amonmgst my freinds, but the vast majority of people I know are secular wheter Atheist, or Agnostic, or just of the 'I just have never thought about God one one or the other' types.

The thing that binds all of us together is I know not a single person who I could call 'fundimentalist' or 'fanatical' about their point of view.

We each respect each other enough to not make an issue of these facets of life where we may disagree.  I would never try to convince and athesit freind that their world view is wrong and that they should see sense and join with us Sikhs, nor would I ask a Muslim friend to cease his praying to Allah, and instead don the turban and grow his beard even longer.

I dislike intensly thoese people who's world view is so blinkered as to make their sight laser beam straight.  The problem with such vision is that you miss out an awful lot of what goes on in the periphary.  I normaly just cut these people out of my life and have nowt more to do with them.

What I'm saying my freind is although our views may differ, I certianly respect your desicion to belive or not as you wish, but what I must ask is does it make sense to come onto a religious forum and then ask us to change our minds and join you?


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## Sukhmani (Nov 23, 2009)

this is really interesting debate... i do agree that there are many good relationships based on arranged marriages, maybe in india mainly, but i think one should differentiate between real love of two people walking in life really together and something what can be named a habit or dependency when u just dont have any other choice so u somehow do cope with the situation and u re happy that u re not alone. moreover i know about the cases when a couple was living ok together but after chidren have grown adult the couple found out there is nothing in common anymore... what is astonishing to me is a growing number of divorces among the sikhs... a divorce often means at least two spoilt lives and a dissapointment which can hardly be overcome... so i guess parents should think it over when they really do something good for their children marrying them according to their own ideals... it regards especially to cases when they gave a qualitative education to their son or daughter and then annulate their capacity to make a solid own decision... whether they do so in the name of the future of their beloved descendant or because they re worried about their own future what they sometimes express in such action is lack of respect to their children and doubts about their own upbringing capabilities... my opinion is respect for respect.... 
of course anything can happen in life and ur own child can turn against u one day but if u have done everything for making a good person of him or her, u shouldnt be worried then... because usually what u gave u will get back in some way.... 
i understand that there is quite difficult social situation these days everywhere but ensure one's old age through marriege of own children is not right... and to cover one's feelings of insecurity and cultural biases into religion is something what i cannot agree with...
but of course children very very often need advice and help of their parents... and once u brought a child to this world u bear a responsibility but the difference is between advice or help and psychological pressure ... we cant be selfish... and children are full-value beings ... not additions to their parents lives


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## Lee (Nov 23, 2009)

Sukhmani ji,

My parents are divorced, in fact my dad has been, married and divorced three times now, and my mother 4.  The woman who brought me up was my fathers second wife, and us kids always knew that when we were all grwon up and left home that they would divorce.

The question is has it ruined our lives?  Nope not a bit of it, I rather think that personaly the way I was brought up, and the things that I experianced as a child has made me a better adult than either of the people who brought me up.

For that I can only thank my parents.  I am now almost married for 20 years, and I am happy to report that all of my siblings are much the same, we are all still with the spouses we married all of those years ago.  Except one of my brothers who whilst not married, and having no intent to has spent 22 years with the same woman.

None of us can see into the future and I am not naive enough to belive that all of those who's parants end up divorced come good in the end, what I an totaly convinced of is that it does far more damage to a child to be brought up in a house where the parents stick together in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' than if they divorced quickly and gave the kids time to get used to mum and dad not living together.

Still we are all differant, so you realise this is just what I think.


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## Sukhmani (Nov 23, 2009)

Lee ji, 
i m happy for you that the divorce of your parents didnt make any damage to your personality nor to ur siblings and as u wrote your experience has made u a better adult...  i think you re the lucky ones.
of course to live in a marriage just because of children and maybe pretend something is not always the right solution... 
it all depends on. case to case.
... what i meant by spoilt life is of course just my own feeling... i personally think it can be very hard for children to see their own father just over the weekends after parent's divorce ... and to enter another marriage after divorce with full faith that "this one will be better" can be difficult as well... not to mention prejudice people bear once u tell u re divorced... i just believe one can fulfill his or her life especially in a high quality relationship and only one's own heart can tell who is the right person for such a relationship... it can be a person chosen by parents but it can be someone else as well... and it is always better to choose that right one for the very first time marriage... that s why it is so sensitive matter... not a matter of parent's "decision in good will" only... that s what i meant...
but it is very good to hear an opinion of a person touched by divorce directly as a child... because of ur insight u have more to say to this topic than me


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## Lee (Nov 23, 2009)

Sukhamani Ji,

I must ask you to forgive the tone of my previous post, I sometimes forget myself and get to preaching!

Yes I understand what you are saying.  I think the trick is to decide acuratly when your child becomes her own person.

As a parent myself I am in conflict quite offten, not with my kids you understand but with myself.  Of course I want the best for them, but that is on the left hand.  On the right hand, well what I hold there is the opinion that they are their own people.

Sure it is my job to look after them, to guide them into becoming good people, to help them get themselves educated, to ensure that they see God in all people and thus treat all with love.

Yet I do not own them, I never have and I never will.  I can get them to obey me, 'child it is your turn to do the washing up' for example, but I can't force them into anything, and neither should I.

So when does a child take ownership of their 'Selfs'?   Well I would say as soon as they start to exhibit their own identity, which in my reconing is about two weeks old.


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## Sikh royalist (Nov 23, 2009)

> could you please tell me where it is written in sikhism that jatt sikhs should marry jatts


 
dear kanwardeep singh,
thats our tribal law a jatt must marry within his/her tribe.:happykaur:


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## Lee (Nov 23, 2009)

Sikh royalist said:


> dear kanwardeep singh,
> thats our tribal law a jatt must marry within his/her tribe.:happykaur:


 I find this quite strange Sikh Royalist ji,

What is a tribe, how does one know what tribe one belongs to?

Does not marrying out of the tribe cause corrupt genetic materials due to not enough veriaty in the genepool?(Do tribe members share the same genes?)

What law takes precidance?

Please understand that I ask these questions due to my own ignorance of the subject, and in no way wish to upset anybody.


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## Satyaban (Nov 23, 2009)

Lee ji

Haven't you contradicted yourself?

"My parents are divorced, in fact my dad has been, married and divorced three times now, and my mother 4. The woman who brought me up was my fathers second wife, and us kids always knew that when we were all grwon up and left home that they would divorce.

The question is has it ruined our lives? Nope not a bit of it, I rather think that personaly the way I was brought up, and the things that I experianced as a child has made me a better adult than either of the people who brought me up."

But you went on to say:

"what I an totaly convinced of is that it does far more damage to a child to be brought up in a house where the parents stick together in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' than if they divorced quickly and gave the kids time to get used to mum and dad not living together."

Am I confused?

Peace


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## Atheist (Nov 23, 2009)

No, it would not make sense to join a religious discussion and expect you to change your mind.  But that was not my intention.  If my intention were to try to convert you, then I'd be no better than a christian who tells me I'm going to hell (which is what I grew up hearing).  The whole point of this forum is for people to share their opinion, and I have shared mine.  I am not trying to convert you, but to (as Professor Richard Dawkins would say) raise your consciousness.  I know you are not going to change your mind, because as devout as you are now, I have been that devout at some point in my life, so I know exactly (or at least close to) what you're thinking.  

I just put in my two cents like everyone else.  Just because it differs from your opinion doesn't mean that I must be the one that wants to change everyone.  My opinion is simply that forced arranged marriages is a barbaric practice and it is astonishing it still happens.  Humanity has failed us and human stupidity has once again triumphed.


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## Lee (Nov 24, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> Lee ji
> 
> Haven't you contradicted yourself?
> 
> ...


 

Hah yes that does seem contradictory, but then as has already been said I think that perhaps I am one of the lucky ones.

I think the think with mine and my siblings situation is that we could tell from a very early age that our mum and dad would divorce as soon as us kids where all grown up and left home.  I wonder if that has much bearing on the fact that we all left early.

I was out of the parential home by the time I was 18, the next brother down from me left just before I did and he is two years younger than me so he was 16.

We could see that their relationship was strained, and really I dodn't know when this knowlegde come to me, it seems that I always knew.

As a child it certianly had an effect on me, can you imagine being in a home where mun and dad where constantly argueing?  As child you can only think and reason as child does, you cannot comprehend the world as an adult untill you have lived a while as an adult.

It was confusing, it was not nice, all sorts of things run through the head of a child that realises that his parents are not in love.

We are the product of our upbringing, it seeps into our very being, the things that happen to us in our childhood have a very reall effect on us which carry on into adult life.

I'm 41 years old now, and I can (and do)look back on my childhood and lots of time that ephieny happens, that 'Aha!' momnet, and I realise, that is why I think like this, or that is why this is a big deal for me and this is not.

Was I damaged as a child by my upbringing?  Ohh certianly I was, now as an adult though I can see certian things, I have now the ability to take stock and come to certian understandings.

I am the man I am now because of my upbringing, but also because of the choices I have made, I am indeed stronger for it, but it could well be differant for me, as it is for lots of others.

I have said before in another post here, a while back, that everything you say, every action you take has an effect on those around you.  I truely belive this and now use my life to watch how I treat people.

Others may well be differant from me.  It is like alchemy , the rearing of a child, so much goes into and really we have little idea what sort of creature that mixture will create.


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## Lee (Nov 24, 2009)

Atheist said:


> No, it would not make sense to join a religious discussion and expect you to change your mind. But that was not my intention. If my intention were to try to convert you, then I'd be no better than a christian who tells me I'm going to hell (which is what I grew up hearing). The whole point of this forum is for people to share their opinion, and I have shared mine. I am not trying to convert you, but to (as Professor Richard Dawkins would say) raise your consciousness. I know you are not going to change your mind, because as devout as you are now, I have been that devout at some point in my life, so I know exactly (or at least close to) what you're thinking.
> 
> I just put in my two cents like everyone else. Just because it differs from your opinion doesn't mean that I must be the one that wants to change everyone. My opinion is simply that forced arranged marriages is a barbaric practice and it is astonishing it still happens. Humanity has failed us and human stupidity has once again triumphed.


 

Ahh then please forgive me if my words were rash or harsh.

I agree with you about forced marriages.  I also am of the opinion that human stupidity does us a lot of harm, but I think that each one of us should be allowed to live as we please(in accordance with the law), but I do not agree that such stupidity has triumphed, as I still see lots of good in the majority of people around.

My main problem is how to contend with these two seemingly contradictory belifes.  As I say I like Athists, the vast majority of my friends are non Theists of some kind, and I certianly do place a high value on the power of rational thought,  I have even read Dawkins(you know you must always keep that mind open).

Once again please forgive me, it seems I totaly misjudged your intent.


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## Sikh royalist (Nov 24, 2009)

Lee said:


> I find this quite strange Sikh Royalist ji,
> 
> What is a tribe, how does one know what tribe one belongs to?
> 
> ...


 
brother lee, 

brother i guess i have already made a wrong statement in my last post.i posted without even thinking once that Sikhism comes first i am ashamed.well i think this is not the right place to discuss such matter will surely let you know but at the right place.


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## Atheist (Nov 24, 2009)

No worries.  You make a good point though...two seemingly contradictory beliefs.  But are they contradictory?  There are good people and bad people in every religion and there are good and bad atheists.  In other words, I would contend that a good person is a good person, regardless of their religious beliefs or non-beliefs.  You like both religious and non-religious people because they are good people.  To me, this means you don't need religion to be a good person.  So even though a religious person and non-religious person disagree on the existence of god, they may still share good qualities, which is why you're friends with both.  

Now, the useful-ness or non-useful-ness of religion and the existence of god is quite another topic which I'd be more than willing to discuss


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