# Consumption Of Alcohol Amongst Sikhs



## harbansj24 (Feb 10, 2011)

Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:
Maintains untrimmed kesh
Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
Does not consume alcohol.
While the first two may be generally true for the Sikhs of Delhi, the third point is false for a very large majority of Sikhs. 

I had no problem with the last point so I signed the declaration without hesitation. But lakhs of Delhi Sikhs will be signing a false declaration!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

*re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs*

Lakhs of Sikhs are indeed FALSE SIKHS..or what is called BHEKHI SIKHS. This is true worldwide..not just in Delhi. Anyone who disputes this just attend a SIKH Wedding..anand karaj and see first person just how much alcohol atypical sikh gathering can drink..in MALAYSIA attend the Malacca Anniversary/B{censored}e of Local Sant Ji Late Baba Sohan Singh Ji...it is said that Malacca Town sells 10 times more alcohol during the 3 day B{censored}e than in an entire year. In fact NO Sikh wedding is complete if no alcohol is served..a BAR is essential in nay wedding hall and is a feature of amny Sikh homes much more than a Baba Jis room for SGGS Parkash. Sad but TRUE.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

*re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs*



harbansj24 said:


> Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:
> Maintains untrimmed kesh
> Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
> Does not consume alcohol.
> ...


 
Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.


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## Admin (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs*



Randip Singh said:


> Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.



Is the matter of maintaining Sikh identity a matter of *'at personal level'!* At personal level, drinking and smoking too can be OK for a Sikh!


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## spnadmin (Feb 10, 2011)

harbansj24 said:


> Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:
> Maintains untrimmed kesh
> Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
> Does not consume alcohol.
> ...



With the indulgence of all 4 who have posted so far  This is exactly what causes confusion in the young. Notice that the 3 points above are taken from the list from the SRM definition of "Who is a Sikh?"  All of the tenets are not listed. Not listed is "believes in one God." If gambling were permitted, I would wager, that a year from now, because of this list, we will be discussing why someone who includes a little idol worship here and there and then and again, either was on the ballot, or got elected. Maybe even discussing how an "atheist" got elected.


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

The interesting to notice is that many Sikh women are into drinking alcohol now a days as well, both in India and abroad. At my niece's reception which was held in Boston by the groom's parents, alcohol was served. We at our parties which were four in total, no alcohol was served. The sitting arrangement was a  mixture of both families. I sat next to the groom's aunt who had been married to the groom's uncle-his mum's brother- who had unfortunately passed away because of cancer. I had known her from IIGS (International Institute of Gurmat Studies) in Los Angles. She was the main person doing keertan at their monthly divaan and had taken Khandei de Pahul. In fact I took the same at IIGS on the Vaisakhi day of 1988. 

A couple of things I noticed that made me bewildered. First the person she got married to again is 18 years her junior and he used to call her Behnji in Los Angles and he is the son of Capt. Sahib, the head of IIGS. Both I knew had taken khandei di pahul.

The second thing that shocked me was that it was only Jaskeerat, Trimaan and myself with soft drinks. The rest of the lot which included seven, four of them women, who have been known to carry Kirpans and sing Shabads loudly were sipping champagne. 

Hypocricy working at its best.

So, Harbans ji, you are right about people lying on the forms.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs*



Randip Singh said:


> Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.



Randip ji,

Guru Fateh.

A person who has trimmed beard and kesh would most likely be also a drinker at least.

Tejwant Singh


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## Caspian (Feb 10, 2011)

> Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.



I found your response interesting. I feel like if I was a devout Sikh I would share your sentiment. (I also have to agree with the poster above me, chances are, if you're clean shave—you drink; but the common perception now is that chances are, if your punjabi—you drink.) Lol, in highschool, as a tongue in cheek response to students who were ignorant of punjabi culture, we use to say "Punjabi people are alot like the Irish, they love to eat potatoes, dance, fight and drink." Of course, I realize thats just a stereotype—but that goes for the post above me as well.

I found the list of requirements interesting though and a "confirmation" of sorts of what I have been saying for a long time on this site. The question of what it means to be a "Sikh" is largely a superficial one.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 10, 2011)

If you treat drink as part of food (some westerners do!), I personally would think it is OK.

But if you know you are drinking to get into a fight, insult people, harass or do other such deviant behaviors, then at a personal level you rather not drink.

In the matter of DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee), apparently a very corrupt organization, to send these letters forcing people to lie is hypocritical.  

The saying (_I just made it up but has some logic to it_) is " If a law is made to serve the people and 99% break it, then the issue is with the law and not the people".

For me it is personal.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

> The rest of the lot which included seven, four of them women, who have been known to carry Kirpans and sing Shabads loudly were sipping champagne. Hypocricy working at its best. So, Harbans ji, you are right about people lying on the forms.



That is very sad indeed.



> If a law is made to serve the people and 99% break it, then the issue is with the law and not the people



Guru said:
ਜਗਤੁ ਜਲੰਦਾ ਰਖਿ ਲੈ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥
The world is going up in flames - shower it with Your Mercy, and save it!

ਜਿਤੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਉਬਰੈ ਤਿਤੈ ਲੈਹੁ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥
Save it, and deliver it, by whatever method it takes.

So when 99% break the law, we should not change the law. We should depend on Guru's mercy and work on getting it fixed.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> With the indulgence of all 4 who have posted so far  This is exactly what causes confusion in the young. Notice that the 3 points above are taken from the list from the SRM definition of "Who is a Sikh?"  All of the tenets are not listed. Not listed is "believes in one God." If gambling were permitted, I would wager, that a year from now, because of this list, we will be discussing why someone who includes a little idol worship here and there and then and again, either was on the ballot, or got elected. Maybe even discussing how an "atheist" got elected.



Spnadmin Ji..
HA HA..you ahve corralled the bull by its horns ( you know that loopy rope that cow boys throw at a bull and bring it down )..THIS "LOOPHOLE" is to let in....HA HA HA..the FULLY KESHADHAREE ( but non smokers and teetotallers) RADHA SOAMIS, NAMDHAREES, NIRANKAREES (narakdharees) Asutoshs, Ram Rahims Premis Rulda Bhais Bhaiyash and RSS navjot sidhus etc etc etc etc...

A SIKH has to either ALL or NONE. 
1. *Beleive ONLY in SGGS and the Ten Guru Sahibs*. NO OTHER GURUS or 
   beleifs allowed.
2. *Be Keshadharee *and no trimming, colouring, plucking....
3. *NO Smoking*, drugging, hukkaing, injecting, snorting...pegging
4. *NO adultery*....womanising...providing private counselling to single 
    women alone in hotel rooms (Baba Chicago wallah/bhora wallah babas)
5. *NO HALLAL*.

*THE FIRST RULE is PARAMOUNT*. IF that rule is not followed any one following the other FOUR is just an ordinary HUMAN BEING and can be any religion. The Radhasomais GURUS have longer beards, better looking dsataars, and look more regal "sardars" than most SIKH SARDARS.
ASUTOSH the Bhauyah baba has longer hair than most Sikhs..so has Ram Rahim of Sacha Sauda, and sevral others of this ilk. They dont drink, smoke, do drugs, etc..*BUT the ONE THING THEY ALL HAVE IN COMMON is they DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SGGS/TEN GURU SAHIBS. This disqualifies them all.*....BUT this disqualification doesnt apply to SGPC voter forms or dgmc voter forms...hence the prepondernace of NON-SIKHS in these institutions and sad state fo Sikh maryada therein.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 10, 2011)

kjsinghhyd ji welcome and thanks for your post.

From my understanding, Sikhism does not teach people to put themselves on a pedestal and look down on others visibly or otherwise to be lesser sikhs.  This authority belongs to Panj Piyareh for individual cases and to the Akal Takhat Sahib for appeals and greater Panthic matters.

So when I post that if a law is 99% not obeyed it does not appear as an example of good law and indirectly leads to law breaking by almost everyone.

Examples:



Laws:


Do not speed above a posted limit
Never cross the road as a pedestrian other than at a crosswalk
Don't deal in cash pay your taxes

Morals
Do not lie
Do not steal
Do not cheat
Treat elders with respect
Treat everyone as equal
..
..   list is pretty long
 
So unless one is so pious and so Godly to be 100% obeying laws and of 100% morally right, one does not have the authority or privilege to find faults in others or dictate as to how others should live.

So the temptation is always there but avoiding the fault finding mindset brings great bliss.  I seek this myself but am far from it winkingmunda
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gurmit Singh (Feb 10, 2011)

Respected Sikh Cyber Members,

Waheguru jee ka Khalsa  Waheguru jee kee Fateh

In the Delhi Sikh Gurdwaras Act 1971 passed by the Parliament of India
on 30th December 1971, it is mentioned that "Sikh" means a person who
professes the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Ten Gurus only,
and keeps unshorn hair.....

Then it is stated - QUALIFICATIONS OF ELECTOR -

8. Every person who -

    (a) has been ordinarily resident in a ward for not less than one hundred and eighty days during the qualifying period;

    (b) is a Sikh of not less than twenty-one years of age on the qualifying date; shall be entitled to be registered in the electoral roll for that ward;

    Provided that no person shall be registered as an elector who -

        (a) trims or shaves his beard or keshas;
        (b) smokes;
        (c) takes alcoholic drinks.

Hence, Sikh voters should always practice TRUTH, and if someone does
not follow the basic tenets then that person is a hypocrite, impostor.

In respect of third point:

     < siqgur pRswid ]    
 
SIKHISM  SHUNS  DRINKING

In most of the foreign countries, it is customary to offer drinks during the official and social gatherings. In 1981, when I first came to Australia, I was confronted with the question of ‘drinking’. When explained that Sikhs neither drink nor smoke, Australians accepted my explanation. During the official functions or private parties, I was offered   juice or soft drinks only. But I am surprised when this question is raised by the Sikhs that there is no harm to have a small drink occasionally. Despite giving them convincing reasons and extracts from the books, they generally remain unsatisfied and require further authentic proof from the “Guru Granth Sahib”. With this in view, following Divine Revealed Word (Gurbaani Shabds) are reproduced for their information and guidance:

Guru Nanak Sahib preaches us:

 isrI rwgu mhlw 1 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 16 ] bwbw  horu Kwxw KusI KuAwru ] ijqu KwDY qnu pIVIAY  mn mih clih ivkwr ] 1 ] rhwau ]
 
ArQ: hy BweI ! ijMnHW pdwrQW dy Kwx (pIx) nwl srIr rogI ho jWdw hY Aqy mn iv~c BI keI mMdy i^Awl qur pYNdy hn, aunHW pdwrQW nMU Kwx (pIx) nwl ^uAwr hoeIdw hY [ (tIkwkwr, pRoPYsr swihb isMG jI)

Friend, all other foods (including drinks), (and) all other pleasures, are vain. For, they fill the mind with Evil and make the body writhe in Pain. GGS P. 16, (Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

Awsw mhlw 1 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 360 ] pUrw swcu ipAwlw shjy iqsih pIAwey
jw kau ndir kry ] AMimRq kw vwpwrI hovY  ikAw mid CUCY Bwau Dry ] 2 ] 4 ] 38 ]

ArQ: (hy jogI !) ieh hY auh ipAwlw ijs dI msqI sdw itkI rihMdI hY, s~B guxW dw mwlk pRBU Afolqw iv~c r~K ky aus mnu~K nMU (ieh ipAwlw) iplWdw hY ijs au~qy auh Awp myhr dI nzr krdw hY [ jyhVw mnu~K At~l Awqimk jIvn dyx vwly ies rs dw vpwrI bx jwey, auh (quhwfy vwly ies) hoCy Srwb nwl ipAwr nhIN krdw [ (tIkwkwr, poRPYsr swihb isMG jI)

The Lord, perfection incarnate offers this cup of Truth spontaneously, To Whomsoever He shows grace. One that deals in Amrita (Nectar Word), by hollow intoxicants (wines) shall not be attracted. GGS P 360 - (Prof Gurbachan Singh jee Talib, Punjabi University, Patiala)

sloku mrdwnw 1] gurU gRMQ swihb-pMnw 553] kil klvwlI kwmu mdu mnUAw pIvxhwru ] kRoD ktorI moih BrI pIlwvw AhMkwru ] mjls kUVy lb kI pI pI hoie KuAwru ] krxI lwhix squ guVu scu srw kir swru ] gux mMfy kir sIl iGau srmu mwsu Awhwru ] gurmuiK pweIAY nwnkw KwDY jwih ibkwr]1]

ArQ: kljugI suBwau (mwnoN) (Srwb k~Fx vwlI) m~tI hY; kwm (mwnoN) Srwb hY qy ies nMU pIx vwlw (mnu~K dw) mn hY [ moh nwl BrI hoeI kRoD dI (mwnoN) ktorI hY qy AhMkwr (mwnoN) iplwaux vwlw hY [ kUVy l~b dI (mwnoN) mjls hY (ijs iv~c bih ky) mn (kwm dI Srwb nMU) pI pI ky KuAwr huMdw hY [ cMgI krxI nMU (Srwb k~Fx vwlI) lwhx, s~c bolx nMU guV bxw qy s~cy nwm nMU sRySt Srwb bxw [ guxW nMU mMfy, sIql suBwau nMU iGau qy Srm nMU mws - (ieh swrI) ^urwk bxw [ hy nwnk ! ieh ^urwk siqgurU dy snmu~K hoieAW imldI hY qy ies dy KwiDAw swry ivkwr dUr ho jWdy hn [ [Guru Nanak attributed the composition to Bhai Mardana]

Kaliyuga is the vat, lust the wine; the mind the boozer. With wrath is the cup by attachment filled; Pride the cup-bearer. In circle of false avarice, those thus boozing forfeit all honour. Make good deeds and truth the molasses, Thus the wine of Truth thou distil. Make good qualities the pancakes, good conduct the ghee (clarified butter), Modesty the dish of flesh. These dishes, Saith Nanak, by the Master’s guidance are obtained, By whose consumption evil-thinking vanishes. GGS Page 553 - (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib) 

mrdwnw 1 ] kwieAw lwhix Awpu mdu mjls iqRsnw Dwqu ] mnsw ktorI kUiV BrI pIlwey jm kwlu ] iequ mid pIqY nwnkw bhuqy KtIAih ibkwr ] igAwnu guVu swlwh mMfy Bau mwsu Awhwru ] nwnk iehu Bojnu scu hY scu nwmu AwDwru ] 2 ]

ArQ: srIr (mwnoN) (Srwb k~Fx vwlI sm~grI smyq) m~tI hY, AhMkwr Srwb, qy iqRSnw iv~c Btkxw (mwnoN) mihPl hY [ kUV nwl BrI hoeI vwSnw (mwnoN) ktorI hY qy jm kwl (mwnoN) iplwauNdw hY [ hy nwnkw ! ies Srwb dy pIiqAW bhuqy ivkwr K~ty jWdy hn (Bwv, AhMkwr iqRSnw kUV Awidk dy kwrn ivkwr hI ivkwr pYdw ho rhy hn) [ pRBU dw igAwn (mwnoN) guV hovy, is&iq swlwh rotIAW qy (pRBU dw) fr mws-ieh ^urwk hovy[ hy nwnk ! ieh Bojn s~cw hY ikauNik s~cw nwm hI (izMdgI dw) Awsrw ho skdw hY [ 

The body is the vat, ego the wine; Restless desire the boozers’ circle. Passion the cup falsehood-filled, that Yama, agent of death is doling out. Saith Nanak: By drinking such wine are numerous sins earned. Make enlightenment the molasses, Divine laudation the pancakes and Fear of God the dish of flesh. Saith Nanak: Seeking prop of the holy Name, Is this the feast of Truth. (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

(mrdwnw 1 ]) kWXW lwhix Awpu mdu AMimRq iqs kI Dwr ] sqsMgiq isau mylwpu hoie ilv ktorI AMimRq BrI pI pI ktih ibkwr ] 3 ]

ArQ: (jy) srIr m~tI hovy, Awpy dI pCwx Srwb qy aus dI Dwr (Bwv, ijs dI Dwr) Amr krn vwlI hovy [ sqsMgiq nwl myl hovy (Bwv, mjls sqsMgiq hovy) qy AMimRq (nwm) dI BrI hoeI ilv (rUp) ktorI hovy, (qW hI mnu~K) (ies Srwb nMU) pI pI ky swry ivkwr pwp dUr krdy hn [ {tIkwkwr: pRoPYsr swihb isMG jI} 

Make the body the vat; of the ego make wine, Which in stream of Amrita pours. In unison with holy company, with cup of devotion, Quaff cupfuls of Amrita – By such quaffing is annulled evil-thinking. (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

Guru Amardas Sahib expounds the effects of drinking liquor: 

slok m: 3 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 554 ] mwxsu BirAw AwixAw mwxsu BirAw Awie ] ijqu pIqY miq dUir hoie brlu pvY ivic Awie ] Awpxw prwieAw n pCwxeI Ksmhu Dky Kwie ] ijqu pIqY Ksmu ivsrY drgh imlY sjwie ] JUTw mdu mUil n pIceI jy kw pwir vswie ] nwnk ndrI scu mdu pweIAY siqguru imlY ijsu Awie ] sdw swihb kY rMig rhY mhlI pwvY Qwau ] 1 ]

ArQ: jy mnu~K (ivkwrW nwl) ilbiVAw hoieAw (eyQy jgq iv~c) ilAWdw igAw, auh eyQy Aw ky (hor ivkwrW iv~c hI) il~bVdw hY (qy Srwb Awidk kukrm iv~c pYNdw hY) [ pr ijs dy pIiqAW Akl dUr ho jWdI hY qy bkx dw joS Aw cVHdw hY [ Awpxy prwey dI pCwx nhIN rihMdI qy mwlk vloN D~ky pYNdy hn [ ijs dy pIiqAW Ksm ivsrdw hY qy drgwh iv~c szw imldI hY, AYsI cMdrI Srwb ijQoN q~k v~s c~ly kdy nhIN pIxI cwhIdI[ hy nwnk ! pRBU dI myhr dI nzr nwl ‘nwm’-rUp nSw (aus mnu~K nMU) imldw hY, ijs nMU gurU Aw ky iml pey [ auh mnu~K sdw mwlk dy (nwm dy) rMg iv~c rihMdw hY qy drgwh iv~c aus nMU QW (Bwv, ie~zq) imldI hY [  

One man offers and another pours himself (the drink). And it makes him crazy and senseless and devoid of all reason. Then one can distinguish not between one’s own and another’s and is cursed by God. Drinking it, one forsakes one’s Master, and is punished at the Lord’s Court. Nay, one should drink not this vicious wine, as far as one can help. If the Lord’s Grace be upon one, one is Blest with the True Wine. And one is imbued with one’s God and is ushered into the Lord’s Presence. GGS Page 554 -(Dr. Gopal Singh jee)      

Guru Ramdas Sahib describes the condition of a drunkard as follows:

gauVI kI vwr mhlw 4 ] pMnw 311 ] scu scw ijnI n syivAw  sy mnmuKu mUV byqwly ]
Eih Awl pqwlu muhhu boldy  ijau pIqY mid mqvwly ] 19 ]

ArQ: gurU swihb aupdyS krdy hn ik hy BweI ! ijnHW ny s~cy hrI nMU nhIN ismirAw, auh mnmu~K mUrK qy Buqny mUMhoN Aijhw bkvws krdy hn ijvyN Srwb pIiqAW SrwbI bkvws krdy hn [ 

They, who served not the Lord of Truth, are turned away from God; in ignorance they reel.
They bark out insensible prattle, as do the drunkards. GGS P. 311 -(Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

Guru Arjun Sahib also teaches us:

Awsw mhlw 5 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 399 ] durmiq mdu jo pIvqy ibKlIpiq kmlI ]
rwm rswieix jo rqy nwnk sc AmlI ] 4 ] 12 ] 114 ]

ArQ: (hy sMq jno !) KotI miq (mwno) Srwb hY jyhVy mnu~K ieh Srwb pIx l~g pYNdy hn (jo gurU dw Awsrw C~f ky KotI miq dy ip~Cy qurn l~g pYNdy hn) auh durwcwrI ho jWdy hn Aqy auh (ivkwrW iv~c) J~ly ho jWdy hn [ pr, hy nwnk ! jyhVy mnu~K pRmwqmw dy nwm dy sRySt rs iv~c msq rihMdy hn, aunHW nMU sdw iQr rihx vwly pRmwqmw dy nwm dw Aml l~g jWdw hY [ 

They who drink the wine of Vice, their mind is turned. But they who drink the Elixir of the Lord are in the Ecstasy of Truth. GGS Page 399 - (Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

mwrU mhlw 5 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 1001 ] pRwn suK dwqw jIA suK dwqw qum kwhy ibswirE AigAwnQ ] hoCw mdu cwiK hoey qum bwvr dulB jnmu AkwrQ ] 1 ]

ArQ: hy AigAwnI ! qUM ikauN aus pRmwqmw nMU Blw id~qw hY jo ijMd dyx vwlw hY, swry suK dyx vwlw hY Aqy swry jIvW nMU suK dyx vwlw hY [ CyqIN mu~k jwx vwly Srwb dy JUTy moh dw nSw c~K ky qUM J~lw ho irhw hYN Aqy qyrw kImqI jnm ivArQ jw irhw hY [ 
Ignorant man! Why be forgetful of the Provider of joy to life, Provider of joy to the Self?
Tasting of the world’s insipid liquor are you turned mad, making waste of your life hard to attain. GGS Page 1001 - (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

Saint Ravidas ji warns us:

mlwr bwxI Bgq rivdws jI kI ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 1293 ] sursrI sll ikRq bwrunI ry sMq jn krq nhI pwnM ] surw ApivqR nq Avr jl ry sursrI imlq nih hoie AwnM ] 1 ] 

ArQ: hy BweI ! gMgw dy pwxI qoN BI bxweI hoeI Srwb, gurmu~K lok nhIN pINdy (Bwv, auh Srwb gRihx-krn-Xog nhIN, iesy qrHW AhMkwr BI Aaugx hI hY, cwhy auh au~cI pivqR jwq dw kIqw jwey) [ pr hy BweI ! ApivqR Srwb Aqy BwvyN hor gMdy pwxI BI hox, auh gMgw dy pwxI iv~c iml ky, aus qoN v~Kry nhIN rih jWdy (iesy qrHW nIvIN kul dw bMdw BI prm pivqR pRBU iv~c juV ky, aus qNo v~Krw nhIN rih jWdw) [ 
 
O’ holy men! Drink not wine, even though it be made with the Ganga’s water (Hindus’ holy river). The impure wine, -- nay rather some other dirty water as well, meeting (mixing) with the Ganges, remains not different from it. P 1293 (Advocate Manmohan Singh jee, SGPC)

Saint Kabir ji further tells us:

slok Bgq kbIr jIau ky ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 1377 ] kbIr BWg mwCulI surwpwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswql jWih ] 233 ]

ArQ: hy kbIr ! jo lok “Bgqn syqI gosty” kr ky qIrQ-XwqRw, vrq-nym Awidk BI krdy hn qy auh SrwbI lok BMg-m~CI BI Kwdy hn (Bwv, sqsMg iv~c BI jWdy hn, Srwb-kbwb BI KWdy pINdy hn Aqy ivkwr BI krdy hn), aunHW dy auh qIrQ, vrq Awidk vwly swry krm iblkul ivArQ jWdy hn [ 
 
Saint Kabir says: the mortals who eat (consume) bhang (hemp) and fish and drink wine, Shall all go to hell, whatever pilgrimages, fasting, and daily devotion they may perform.
GGS Page 1377 - (Mr. Max Arthur Macauliffe)                                       

Conclusion:

There is no doubt that alcoholic drinks affect the body and mind by way of serious diseases. We also know that drinking and driving is also an offence that is why breath testing on the highways is a common feature. During the Good Friday, Christmas and New Year holidays there is always increase in deaths due to drink - driving. Apart from the non-violation of traffic rules, in view of religious injunction, Sikhs generally remain away from such happenings and accordingly by the blessings of Guru Sahibaan, Sikhs enjoy better life. Whatever may be the Doctors or Scientists’ views, Sikhs being followers of the Sikh Faith, should not drink beer or any other alcoholic spirits. 

Request: I shall be grateful if this article, after undertaking appropriate changes, if any,
It may be distributed amongst your family members, friends, relatives and work mates. 

vwihgurU jI kw ^wlsw  vwihgurU jI kI &iqh ]
 
Reproduced for free distribution by,                                                       [Sunday: 13th October 2002]

Email: gurmitsingh01@bigpond.com
9 – HAMLIN STREET, QUAKERS HILL, N S W - 2763, AUSTRALIA  {Tel/Fax No. 61 – 2 – 9837 2787}


Thanks,

Gurmit Singh (Sydney - Australia)


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 10, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> kSo unless one is so pious and so Godly to be 100% obeying laws and of 100% morally right, one does not have the authority or privilege to find faults in others or dictate as to how others should live.



Amnarsaria ji,

Of course none of us is really 100% anything when it comes to moral issues.  However, we need to explore possibilities and find alternatives.  One way to do this is to critique and discuss ideas of others among ourselves.  Not to do this is to close the door to improvement to those of us still learning.  (That would be all of us, except the Gurus and egotistical fools!)  

This can be done in a way that promotes angry emotional outbursts or one that promotes civil and mutually beneficial discourse.  It is, after all, possible to "disagree without being disagreeable."  This is one indication of a mature individual.  While this will probably involve finding fault with the ideas and/or reasoning of another, it is always possible to disagree without making personal attacks on the person/people involved.     

Additionally, and I suppose this can be debated, being a Sikh now involves acceptance of the Sikh Rehat Maryada or possibly some other recognised Rehat Maryada, even though I doubt anyone follows any  perfectly.  Anyone who thinks s/he is doing a perfect job has a huge ego, I think.  If I see another Sikh making some error that I recognise, I will try to discretely and courteously point it out.  I expect another Sikh would help me out in the same way.   

In the issue of alcohol, I believe every maryada insists that Amritdhari Sikhs must abstain from all intoxicants.  (Some among the nihungs make an exception for bhang, but since neither of us is a nihung, we can ignore that.)  I know the SRM says that _all _Sikhs should abstain.

The point, I think, is not to let ego get in the way.  As long as we are trying to learn, disagreement and even conflict of ideas is good and necessary.  Not to allow this shuts the door to discussion and learning.  What then the use of any forum?


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## inderjitk (Feb 10, 2011)

harbansj24 said:


> Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:
> Maintains untrimmed kesh
> Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
> Does not consume alcohol.
> ...


i am sikh jatt girl , ge tmany marraige proposal.my few  question i ever ask the boy is1) are u edicted to some things like gutka alcohol ,and i am pure veg..
most of the boy replies...je daru n hi to sikh nahi...!!!!! jatt ho ke daru na piye to apni kaum badnaam ho jani....!!!!***!!!!! and koi kudi  kisi bevde sarabhi nal vyah kyu karagi...if this wont stop then i think Sikh will be known form drinking more alcohol than water...i have seen 19-20 years kids they dance with hand glass of bear and alcohol even their parents dont say any things to them..shame on such parents,themselves they donno what is sikhi and expect others to follow it...animatedkhanda1


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## hpsahuja (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Lakhs of Sikhs are indeed FALSE SIKHS..or what is called BHEKHI SIKHS. This is true worldwide..not just in Delhi. Anyone who disputes this just attend a SIKH Wedding..anand karaj and see first person just how much alcohol atypical sikh gathering can drink..in MALAYSIA attend the Malacca Anniversary/B{censored}e of Local Sant Ji Late Baba Sohan Singh Ji...it is said that Malacca Town sells 10 times more alcohol during the 3 day B{censored}e than in an entire year. In fact NO Sikh wedding is complete if no alcohol is served..a BAR is essential in nay wedding hall and is a feature of amny Sikh homes much more than a Baba Jis room for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Parkash. Sad but TRUE.


 u r absolutely true...i appreciate ur concerns


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## Siri Kamala (Feb 11, 2011)

kjsinghhyd said:


> That is very sad indeed.
> (snippage)
> So when 99% break the law, we should not change the law. We should depend on Guru's mercy and work on getting it fixed.



Ummm...no, I think the idea is much more along the lines of a practical Dr. Phil _"how's that workin' for ya?"_ type of approach.  

For example, I used to work at a ski resort here in Vermont.

They had a strict policy about guests having a ski pass on them at all times, and it had to be the correct ski pass for what they were doing at the time.

So as part of this policy they would end up doing things like pulling a gentleman out of the lift line because he did not have a lift ticket on him at all, or because he was wearing a child's season pass instead of an adult season pass.

The adult would often be angry or impatient because they would make him come and sit in the manager's office until they could determine what to do (call security and have him removed, or figure out that it was a simple mistake and let him go, etc.)

So he's sitting there *stuck* in the manager's office.  Meanwhile his children don't know where he is (families often get separated easily on ski mountains!), his wife cannot find him... and this guy, who spent $10,000 on season passes for himself and his family before he even CAME to the mountain, who reserved a deluxe 3 bedroom unit at our fancy base lodge hotel to the tune of probably another $5000, who was no doubt spending another $2000 on food while there, and buying several hundred dollars worth of clothing and souvenirs...This guy who has been with skiing with our resort for 20 years gets so fed up with the fact that he's missed almost an entire day of skiing -- ALL BECAUSE OUR RULES SAID he cannot go on our mountain with his son's ski pass (because we found out later, his son *accidentally* picked up Dad's ski pass that morning!)...This guy who was basically handing us almost $20,000 of his money is now saying, "I will never EVER ski here again because your policy has RUINED my family vacation."

And variations of that story happened over and over again... so much so that these complaints finally reached the CEO of the corporation that owns the resort.  And he did some research. And he calculated that, by pulling people out of the lift line or otherwise detaining people who did not have a pass or who did not have the right kind of pass, we ~maybe~ saved ourselves $30,000 a year.

But we COST ourselves nearly $500,000 in lost business.

It didn't take an Einstein level IQ to do the math on that.

Needless to say that "law" was not working for the majority of people, and when looked at more closely, it was not working for the resort either.

So they changed the "law" -- and now they do not detain or otherwise bother people who don't have a pass or don't have the correct pass.  And sure, it means that some cheaters will take advantage of that policy and ski for free. But it also means that guys that come with their families to the resort and spend tens of thousands of dollars *will have a nice time* and will *keep coming back*.

See... there is a HUGE difference between knowing what you have a "right" to do and knowing in your heart the "right thing" to do.  

Like, in my own life, I have a boss who has not yet figured out that there is a difference between these two things.  And even though I come in early almost every day and work a full day and even work late many nights, he wants to dock my pay because I was 12 minutes late ONE DAY.  A day when we received OVER A FOOT OF SNOW overnight.

All of the schools in the state were closed.  Many businesses were closed. And even though my work is over 60 miles away, and even though I have to rely on a public van to get there, and even though the road conditions were TERRIBLE, I managed to arrive only 12 minutes late.

And he is insisting that I deduct 15 minutes of vacation time from my timesheet due to the fact that I did not CALL him to NOTIFY him that I would be late.

On a day when common sense combined with this admittedly rare and high-level managerial skill known as "looking out the window to check the weather" would have TOLD him I was going to be late.

And I have tried, desperately almost, to explain to him that when he micromanages me in this way -- seeking out faults and shortcomings without ever praising me or offering any balance to counteract his perpetual focus on negativity. I have pointed out to him that our entire unit is unraveling... that everyone on our team is looking for work elsewhere... because they are so unhappy with his rules and his rigid, fear-based, ego-based focus on having us kow-tow to his authority. 

What is the saying -- there are none so blind as those who *will not see*?  I think that applies here.

The important thing about rules and laws is not the fact that the rule or the law exists because clearly there was a time when that rule or law did not exist...and that changed...and that means that it can change again.  The important thing it is to focus on* what that law is intended to accomplish* -- what _interest_ that law is designed to address.

Lose sight of that and the law simply becomes meaningless dogma -- something that, based on my understanding of gurbani, we are urged to avoid doing.

Not all things the things the Gurus did and not all the things said in holy writings are intended to be normative for all time, for all people across all ages.  Just because Guru Nanak Ji traveled to Mecca does not mean that all Sikhs must then travel to Mecca!  (What a mess that would be these days, yes??  LOL)

To have an inquiring and discerning heart and mind is a gift.  God must want us to use those gifts or God would have created robots instead of humans.


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## krishanbhugtiar (Feb 11, 2011)

I have not come across  these don'ts and do's in the body of the Guru Granth Sahib. All Guru Nanak Dev says is that the intoxication of NAM is far superior to wine or alcohal. Therefore have the intoxication of the wine of the Nam.
What Guru Nanak emphatically states is that do not consume that food which will pollute and corrupt the mind and spoil the body or the digestive system.
these so called leaders are hypocrites in my opinion.

they consume meat and liquor and prescribe others not to do so. At home they take meals sitting in the chair and on the table but prescribe langar sitting at floor. For them food at home has nothing to do with langar or langar provided by the Guru.

They tell lies and call themselves sikhs . A person fighting for sewa ( chairmanship) in the Gurudwara, deceiving others in business and telling lies is not a gursikh, but a slur on the name of Sikhi as propounded by the Gurus.

I have expressed my frank opinion.

There is no where in the SGGS Where there is a dictum that a clean shaven is not a sikh. Kabir says that a lamb never cuts its hair like the other wild animals. 

Can we call them to have mukti.

With kind regards

Krishan Bhugtiar


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## ravindra.saini (Feb 11, 2011)

How Many of us are really following the Sikhism in an ideal way?  I think It is not possible.  Keeping hair, not consuming alcohal or tobacco does not mean a true sikh but these things are a part of it may be in major.


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## hpsahuja (Feb 11, 2011)

i am wonderinggggggggggggggggggg...:interestedmunda:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

HARBANS Ji 24,
I think instead of indulging into an unending discussion on such issue we should rather adopt a pragmatic view.
Before signing the declaration  any one should delete the  condition which he/she does not conform.After all the conditions of the declaration are not MANDATORY,I suppose.
This way any one can avoid signing a FALSE declaration.
This is only a suggestion pl
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 11, 2011)

One thing I find interesting is that while it clearly is impossible to be 100% compliant to the SRM, the three things asked of here can be complied with 100%.  Think about it:


Keep kesh
Teetotal
Eschew tobacco
These things can be done.  In fact, that is demanded of all Amritdhari Sikhs.  I'm not sure the significance of this.  I just noticed it and thought it interesting.


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## Tejwant Singh1 (Feb 11, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Just like degradation in the environment, there is degradation in all societies, cultures and religions of the world.
Long time ago in the mid-sixties, I came across a Santji in Chandigarh while, by chance, visiting someone. The emphasis of his impromptu discourse was to align with Gurbani and Naam. He said that terrible times are going to come by the turn of the twentieth century. Sikhi would be under attack and Harmandir Sahib would be blooded. Many Sikhs would maintain outer appearance but will not be observant. Then the turban will start vanishing and 'koi koi reh jai ga sachha Sikh' -a few will remain true Sikhs.
He also said that by the turn of the twentieth century degradation of Muslims will set in. They shall rise and go to the extremes. Then Islam will finish. According to predictions of Nostradamus for the same period, the Devil will come from the underworld :Consider black oil as the Devil which has given much power to the Muslim world.
Santji also said that there shall be a wave to convert to Sikhism and to the purity of the Khalsa order :an exemplary faith -we don't go around asking others to convert; truly democratic and a peoples faith; selfless Sewa; Langar; singing Kirtan (Christians never used to sing in Churches and they started around 500 years ago after Guru Nanak Devji went to Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem preaching about Kirtan.)
Now about "Consumption of Alcohol Amongst Sikhs". I suppose this is part of the world wide degradation.
Holy Guru Granth Sahib says' "If He desires you to worship Him, He shall make you meet the True Guru". Therefore, let us consider it as the Hukum of Waheguru that He has kept close to His Heart those He loves as His true devotees. And He has pushed away those He does not love into a punishment :drugs; consumption of alcohol and tobacco; aborting/killing daughters in favour of sons; dowry deaths; much emphasis on materialism; partying and watching TV serials in the Amritvela when it is time to do Guru Sewa; and whatever else.
Going back to the form from the DSGMC, the correct question should have been "Are you an observant Sikh?" To ask such a question, the Jathedars ought to be observant in the first place.
Le me give you an example about the high handedness of Jathedars. In 1998, I was almost attacked in the SGPC office by one of the semi-literate Jathedars (in the modern context) who shouted at me, "You have been a fauji officer and must have had alcohol. How can you write and make a TV serial on the Khalsa now?" (I had gone to seek permission for a 52 episode TV serial titled 'Badshah Dervesh' which never saw the light of the day after that.)
Therefore readers, there is no point finding fault with those who are indulging. Just feel sorry for them and ask Waheguru to keep you on the path of True Sikhi and righteousness.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Tejwant Singh1


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## nbagga (Feb 11, 2011)

This is definitely a good example of hypcoricy i believe many people today are keeping beard and wearing turban just to be absorbed in the community and identified from SIKH families


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,

You are fullly right in your views.We  ,as in personal capacity have no right to dictate the life of individual.We are simply authrised to communicate the correct message of our GURU-GUR.Rest of the job GURU-GUR will perform knowing the inside status of the individual.
You can also unerstand it is all about POLITICS too.We can not avoid this .But there shall always be the need of amendments in the various charters and this should be evaluated from time to time as per need of the society.
But one thing I would certainly like to emphasise that A TRUE GURSIKH does not make use of personal choices in leading the life.For any GURSIKH the words of SGGS  is the only choice.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Feb 11, 2011)

I suppose I am what you may call a lapsed sikh, in that I have rejected most of the physical ideals of what it is to be a sikh. 

I look like this because in my mid twenties, having started to enjoy life, and having realised that in our culture, appearance is much more important than mental discipline, I sadly came to the conclusion that I could not be a sikh anymore. My father you see, is one of those sikhs who is close to perfect, he did not drink, he only had eyes for my mother, and he was (and still is) a good man, both in thought and in practice. He deserved to wear a turban and he deserved the respect that looking like a sikh brought. I felt that I did not, catching sight of myself in a club drinking one day, in my turban, I felt revulsed that I was bringing shame not only on my religion, but on my father. I made my decision because I did not want to live a lie.

Yes, lots of sikhs do drink, and some might say they were not true sikhs, in the same way that I am not a true sikh, but there are many many more that do not drink, but in thought commit much greater sins. 

Which is worse? and which sikh is closer to god? he who drinks, but whose thoughts are pure, or he who maintains the complete identity of the sikh, the actions of a sikh, but whose mind is a cesspit

I personally believe that the ability to see god in every living being, to love and assist, and to keep ones thoughts pure and chaste, are much more important than the subject of alcohol or appearance


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## nbagga (Feb 11, 2011)

Guru Fateh Ji,


It is really sad but heights of hypocricy is that many people maintain beard and wear turban just to be identified as a part of pias community.


Sat Sri Akal


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Feb 11, 2011)

animatedkhanda1  Dear all,

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh.

The question raised through this forum is very important from the Sikh point of view.  As already stated, many sikhs play false while registering as voters for the elections to the DSGMS.   The drinking alcohol is a social evil world-wide, but has been included in the Sikh Code of Conduct as punishable ' tankhia'.  Here I would like to add that 'tankhia' Sikh should not be permitted to be in the voters list for electing administrators in the supreme body of gurdwara management in Delhi or elsewhere.    The definition of 'Sikh' in the Sikh Rehat Maryada announced from Sri Akal Takhat does not include Sharab sevan as disqualification for being called as a Sikh.  However, it includes those who have faith in the Khande bate da Amrit of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and teachings of all Gurus from Guru Nanak Dev JI and Guru Granth Sahib ji.   Therefore, only Sikhs have to be in the voters list to constitute the electoral college for elections to the Gurdwara Management body.     So a Sikh has been forbidden from taking drinks else one will become entitled to punishment as 'tankhia'.   

Having said so, it is also true that a sikh becomes 'tankhia' and does not earn a disqualification to be called a Sikh.  Therefore, those who drink, to my mind have to exercise self control and leaving drinking habits which are bad for the social and religious conduct as a Sikh.  Every Sikh must move closer to the Sikh Rehat Maryada to become a true Sikh as drinking has been prohibited in Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji also. Gurbani says " Jit pite mat door hove, baral pave which aye, aisa madh (sharab) mool na pichye je ka par vasai".  It made pite (drinking sharab) Nanaka bahute khatia vikar'.    Gurbani also says that even if holy water of Ganges is used to distil liquor, the saintly persons do not drink such a liquor ( Bhagat Kabir Ji).  

So every Sikh must respect Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib ji a leave the bad habit of drinking alcohol, which, while being dangerous for health, family, social and religious life of a Sikh in particular and all others in general.  I leave it to the conscience of every Sikh to be honest while filling up or not filling up forms for being included in the electoral college for election to the membership to the DSGMS which has to be manage Sikh historic Gurdwaras in Delhi.  

I am sure such a condition is also there for those who aspire or stand as candidate to become member of DSGMC.  The above guidelines equally apply to all such prospective candidates.  The political parties fighting Gurdwara elections have to play a very important role in educating Sikhs about the importance of Gurdwara elections and confining to the conditions in the form for become a member in the voting list for Gurdwara Elections and those who aspire to fight as Member in the DSGMC.   The Sikh Sangat and prabhandaks of local Gurdwara Committee also need to play a useful role in educating sikhs in this regard.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 11, 2011)

Krishan Ji..
The SGGS is a lot of things..BUT one thing its NOT.
Its NOT a Dictum Book. Its NOT a Book of LAWS. Its not a DO this and DONT do that list.
Its a book of Divine Experiences by the Divine Messengers of the Divine Entity...and teaches us HOW we too can experience the DIVINE WITHIN US and within all His Creation.
Thus the SGGS is UNIVERSAL...for all by All to ALL....Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Isaii, or Bahai, Zoroastrain, jain, Buddhist, atheist, whatever and whomsoever...

2. The Code of Conduct is the SRM - Sikh Rehat maryada and it applies ONLY to "SIKHS...who wish to be " conducted and Coded !! NO force necessary or applied to those unwilling to be "conducted and codified"....rangesingh::redturban::blueturban::happysingh::grinningkaur::grinningsingh:cheerleaderjapposatnamwaheguru:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

TEJINDERSINGHDELHI JI,
You have presented your views in a very candid and really appreciatice way.This is a major social issue and requires proper education of the persons about this evil which is more prominently visible in Sikh comunity.
Let us always make ARDASi before SATiGURu ji to be graceful to get rid of this evil.SATiGURu ji just can do anything.I am myself witness to such a wonderful grace of SATiGURu ji.I have witnessed a hardcore DRINKER totally abondoning any liquor .This person was simply asked to listen to Gurbaani in an AKHANPATH ceremony specially for this purpose.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## inderjitk (Feb 11, 2011)

:interestedmunda:me too


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## nbagga (Feb 11, 2011)

Gurfateh,


Even if you goto Gurudwara Bangla Sahib outside joda ghar it is mentioned people with trimmed hair or beard would are not allowed to de seva and but what about people who drink,chew tobacco eat meat and look at women with disrespect.

Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

nbagga ji

Your information is really shocking .
I can only say this.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

The whole problem what we are facing in current times seems to be due to the very DEFINITION of SIKH.
Our GURUs have no where defined as to who can be a SIKH.It is Panthic definition of 20th century.Our 10th GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji Created Khalsaand the 
 identity was mandatory for Khalsa.At that time a word SINGH was added as identity of Khalsa in Name.
At that time there were both Khalsa as SINGH and Non Khalsa as SIKHS.According to this EVERY SINGH IS A SIKH but EVERY SIKH is not necessarily a SINGH.
With the passage of time it was realised that every SIKH should be identitified as SINGH only.It appears that this concept has not been propery clarified in a convincing way and probably this is tha cause of initial separation of people in different segments with their belief associated with SGGS .
As on date and for futures , a SIKH is only a person with identity of being A SINGH and observant of SRM.This fact is going to remain.
I have mentioned all this in response to Mr nbagga  s observation.It is for the Managements of Gurdwaras to take a balancing views in certain area s where a person of any caste,creed and Nature can participate and the feelings such as of Mr nbagga 
can be properly respected.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## ravindra.saini (Feb 11, 2011)

This is something that I wanted to say...but then who will show the path of righteiousness...who will tell us that we are in a wrong path..?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

RAVINDER SAINI Ji,

ONLY AND ONLY SGGS

When person like you start connecting  and grasp the messages of GURU-GUR of your own.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## anm_chh (Feb 11, 2011)

i don't think Consumption of Alcohol is bad, but excess of everything is bad, as for myself never smoke or drink but i know d disadvantages of alcohol


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## Tejwant Singh1 (Feb 11, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Just like degradation in the environment, there is degradation in all societies, cultures and religions of the world.
Long time ago in the mid-sixties, I came across a Santji in Chandigarh while, by chance, visiting someone. The emphasis of his impromptu discourse was to align with Gurbani and Naam. He said that terrible times are going to come by the turn of the twentieth century. Sikhi would be under attack and Harmandir Sahib would be blooded. Many Sikhs would maintain outer appearance but will not be observant. Then the turban will start vanishing and 'koi koi reh jai ga sachha Sikh' -a few will remain true Sikhs.
He also said that by the turn of the twentieth century degradation of Muslims will set in. They shall rise and go to the extremes. Then Islam will finish. According to predictions of Nostradamus for the same period, the Devil will come from the underworld :Consider black oil as the Devil which has given much power to the Muslim world.
Santji also said that there shall be a wave to convert to Sikhism and to the purity of the Khalsa order :an exemplary faith -we don't go around asking others to convert; truly democratic and a peoples faith; selfless Sewa; Langar; singing Kirtan (Christians never used to sing in Churches and they started around 500 years ago after Guru Nanak Devji went to Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem preaching about Kirtan.)
Now about "Consumption of Alcohol Amongst Sikhs". I suppose this is part of the world wide degradation.
Holy Guru Granth Sahib says' "If He desires you to worship Him, He shall make you meet the True Guru". Therefore, let us consider it as the Hukum of Waheguru that He has kept close to His Heart those He loves as His true devotees. And He has pushed away those He does not love into a punishment :drugs; consumption of alcohol and tobacco; aborting/killing daughters in favour of sons; dowry deaths; much emphasis on materialism; partying and watching TV serials in the Amritvela when it is time to do Guru Sewa; and whatever else.
Going back to the form from the DSGMC, the correct question should have been "Are you an observant Sikh?" To ask such a question, the Jathedars ought to be observant in the first place.
Le me give you an example about the high handedness of Jathedars. In 1998, I was almost attacked in the SGPC office by one of the semi-literate Jathedars (in the modern context) who shouted at me, "You have been a fauji officer and must have had alcohol. How can you write and make a TV serial on the Khalsa now?" (I had gone to seek permission for a 52 episode TV serial titled 'Badshah Dervesh' which never saw the light of the day after that.)
Therefore readers, there is no point finding fault with those who are indulging. Just feel sorry for them and ask Waheguru to keep you on the path of True Sikhi and righteousness.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Tejwant Singh1


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## nbagga (Feb 11, 2011)

Gurfateh Prakash ji,


I believe any one who believes in Sikhism and believes in all Gurus should have the freedom to follow Sikhism i will tell you a shameful incident happend with one of my friend living in Australia originally from chandigarh and believer of Sikhism however belongs to sharma family and doesnt have beard and doesnt wear a turban and his room mate from some deep village in Punjab asked him that anyone or everyone who doesnt have singh in his name shouldnt be residing in Punjab....What kind of thinking is that and i dont understand what is developing this kind of shameful thinking.

It is really sad to see our Turban wearing SING sikh brothers consider their Non Singh(SIKH) brothers seperate from them, we talk about fighting racism happening with PUNJABI community outside INDIA but what about our own country 

My grand father was born in a Singh family but brought by his non singh relatives since his parents died at an early age and his relatives removed singh from his name and cut his hair so that nobody discriminates him to be adopted however he was a true preacher of all SIKH gurus and used to do wake up at 4:00 AM in the morning to offer the morning prayers to WAHEGURU JI does that still make him NON SIKH.

Unfortunately due to that one change i dont wear a turban or carry the few such physical attributes of being so called today's SIKH and my name doesnt have singh but it continues to be BAGGA and i proudly call myself a SIKH as i understand SIKH means disciple or student of his GURU.

Sat Sri Akal


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## seeker3k (Feb 11, 2011)

Tejwent Singh ji,
I am shocked by your statement that even women drink now days. Why is the shock? Are women diffrant then men? IF that is what you think then is it not discremination? What I can understand that it is ok for men to drink but not for women.
If we try to choose sikhs who drink or eat meat, then what else we shold look for? What about lie cheeting stealing even just little. What if a person pick up one grape at shop to taste, is it wrong too?
If we do that then there be no sikhs left in Sikhsim.
I think it is time we move forward to bring people from other faiths into Sikhism. Or Sikhism be gone sooner then later.
It is not what man eat drink or wear. It is how they live their life. This is 21<SUP>st</SUP> century not the 15<SUP>th</SUP>.


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## kds1980 (Feb 11, 2011)

> I believe any one who believes in Sikhism and believes in all Gurus should have the freedom to follow Sikhism i will tell you a shameful incident happend with one of my friend living in Australia originally from chandigarh and believer of Sikhism however belongs to sharma family and doesnt have beard and doesnt wear a turban and his room mate from some deep village in Punjab asked him that anyone or everyone who doesnt have singh in his name shouldnt be residing in Punjab....What kind of thinking is that and i dont understand what is developing this kind of shameful thinking.



These type of people are found in all religions.Just go to rediff and you can read truck load of abusive comments against all religions.Once one of hindu friend of my brother asked him about hindu sikh relations and my brother replied that they are O.K with each other.then he said They have to be O/W there will be another 84 ,though later on he apologised for this comment but is this what he has deep in his heart?


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 11, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> Tejwent Singh ji,
> I am shocked by your statement that even women drink now days. Why is the shock? Are women diffrant then men? IF that is what you think then is it not discremination? What I can understand that it is ok for men to drink but not for women.
> If we try to choose sikhs who drink or eat meat, then what else we shold look for? What about lie cheeting stealing even just little. What if a person pick up one grape at shop to taste, is it wrong too?
> If we do that then there be no sikhs left in Sikhsim.
> ...



Seeker3K ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am afraid you have totally misunderstood what I wrote. Please read it again and let me know your objections.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## gscheema (Feb 11, 2011)

harbansj24 said:


> Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:
> Maintains untrimmed kesh
> Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
> Does not consume alcohol.
> ...



waheguru ji da khalsa,waheguru ji di fateh, in my views alcohol is not needed for a true sikh guru nanak dev ji has given us naam(waheguru),naam khumari nanaka chari rahe din raat. its my personal experience that people tends towards alcohol and other sorts of intoxicants because our mind(mann) is like water it flows towards niwaan(downward) bad things attracts us more than the good ones.so a true sikh should follow the teachings of gurus and should start simran of waheguru and there will be no need of alcohol or any other type of intoxicant.And we dont have to tell lie to any authority or any person..i wont tell u lie i also drink occasionaly but i am trying hard to quit and i pray to god that bless me with his naam so that i can become strong from inside that i dont have to rely upon alcohol for dutch comfort....


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

Let us all first become GOOD GURSIKH and comprehend the messages of Gurbaani.
Then we can realise the significance of the concept of being A KHALSA as envisaged by GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 11, 2011)

SEEKER3K Ji,

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT CENTURY WE LIVE IN>THE DIVINE MESSAGES OF DIVINE GURU FOR EVER>WE CAN NOT TAKE THE EXCUSE OF ANYTHING BEING TIMEBAR>WE SHOULD ONLY THINK OF HOW THE TEACHINGS OF DIVINE  GURU CAN BE IMPLEMENTED AS PER REQUIREMENT OF TIME>THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Prakash.S.Bagga

*Admin Request: Please avoid commenting all-capital words like above. They are synonymous with  internet shouting behavior. Leaves a bad impression and a bad taste to a reader. Future instances of such occurrences will be deleted without notice. Thank you for your understanding. 
*


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 11, 2011)

Siri Kamala said:


> Ummm...no, I think the idea is much more along the lines of a practical Dr. Phil _"how's that workin' for ya?"_ type of approach.
> 
> ......
> And variations of that story happened over and over again... so much so that these complaints finally reached the CEO of the corporation that owns the resort.  And he did some research. And he calculated that, by pulling people out of the lift line or otherwise detaining people who did not have a pass or who did not have the right kind of pass, we ~maybe~ saved ourselves $30,000 a year.
> ...


Siri Kamala ji wonderful post and I have similar work experiences too.

Now in terms of the this thread I bring the following to the attention of SPNers,



The question is one first and foremost one of Sikh Rehat Maryad (SRM) which itself was dervied consistent with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji by learned men each one of those perhaps was equivalent to the total brain power in terms of Sikhism on this board
At least that is how humbled I personally feel knowing names of some of the people involved
 
It is very disingenous to take one part of SRM and conveniently take other parts to prove a point (nothing personal as this is a philosophical discussion for helping each other) and I mark *with R* for indiscretion that are not Kurehat while Kurehats are marked *with K*
Comments like
Teetoal *(R + K)*
Government of India lumps in (Maintains untrimmed kesh *K*, Does not smoke or consume tobbacco *K*, Does not consume alcohol* R*.)
There are other posts where anti-drink (nothing wrong with the view as it follows SRM) posters do the same by Gurbani quotes by mixing *R and K*
 
 
The above actions are not correct in providing Guidance
Rehat statement in terms of Alcohol is the followng from SGPC,<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->


5. koeI nSw(BMg,APIm,Srwb,posq,kukIn Awid) vrqx vwlw[ 



*-User of any intoxicants (Marijuana, Opium, Liquor, Poppy Husks, Cocaine, etc.). R*
*This clause is a violation of a rehat and SRM deals with it as follows,*
 
*-------------------------------------------------
*​<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  3. qnKwh lwaux dI ivDI​ *Method of Imposing Penalty*​a) ijs iksy is`K pwsoN rihq dI koeI Bu`l ho jwvy qW auh nyVy dI gur-sMgq pws hwzr hovy Aqy sMgq dy snmu`K KVHo ky AwpxI Bu`l mMny[  ​*-  The Sikh who has erred in a rehat indiscretion, should attend the nearest sikh congregation  and while standing admit to the indiscretion.*
​A) gur-sMgq 'coN sRI gurU gRMQ swihb jI dI hzUrI ivc pMj ipAwry cuxy jwx, jo pyS hoey s`jx dI Bu`l nUM ivcwr ky gur-sMgq pws qnKwh (dMf) qjvIz krn[​*-  The sikh congregation, in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, selects five Panjh Piyare (Five Beloved) who having reviewed the indiscretion propose a penalty to the Sikh Congregation.*
e) sMgq nUM bKSx vyly hT nhIN krnw cwhIdw[ nw hI qnKwh luAwaux vwly nUM dMf Brn ivc AVI krnI cwhIdI hY[ qnKwh iksy iksm dI syvw, Kws krky jo h`QW nwl kIqI jw sky, lwauxI cwhIey[  ​*-  In giving forgiveness the Sikh congregation should not be stubborn.  The person seeking penalty should not resist the penalty.  The penalty should be service oriented with focus on the abilty to do so as labour of hands.*

s) AMq soD dI Ardws hovy[  ​*-  A prayer of having been reformed shall be carried out at the end.*

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Globally key points,


For Rehat *(R)* Violations like the following,
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  T) qnKwhIey ieh hn:- ​ *Subjects of Penalty*


​1. mIxy, msMd, DIrm`lIey, rwmrweIey, Awidk pMQ ivroDIAW nwl jW nVI mwr, kuVI mwr, isrguMm nwl vrqx vwlw qnKwhIAw ho jWdw hY[​-          *Meenay, Masand (non-believers in Rehat Maryada); Dhirmaliye; Ram Rayiaye (non-believers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as last and final Guru), Touts of anti-Panth or of the non-believers in succession of Gurus, female infanticide, the person dealing with such is subject to penalty.*


 2. by-AMimRqIey jW piqq dw jUTw Kwx vwlw[  ​-          *Eater of food eaten by non-Amritdhari or Kurehatiah. *

 3. dwhVw rMgx vwlw[  ​*-Beard colourer.*4. pu`qr jW DI dw swk mu`l lY ky jW dy ky krn vwlw[​*-Doing marriage matches of sons or daughters through by taking or giving a set price.*5. koeI nSw(BMg,APIm,Srwb,posq,kukIn Awid) vrqx vwlw[  ​*-User of any intoxicants (Marijuana, Opium, Liquor, Poppy Husks, Cocaine, etc.).*

6. gurmiq qoN ivru`D koeI sMskwr krn krwaux vwlw[  ​*- Conductor of non-Rehat based religious functions.*

7. rihq ivc koeI Bu`l krn vwlw[ ​*-Other mistakes in following Rehat.*

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So best for all of us is to keep clarity and convey clarity.  Nothing comes out of mush.



> *Bottomline**:
> *
> 
> *The person in-charge of indiscretion is solely responsible to bring it to Sikh congregations attention as needed*
> ...


I am not condoning drinking or stopping people from drinking just stating what I can read in reference publications of SGPC and other posts with Gurbani quotes and translations.

Hoping above is of help in the dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Any errors in English translations of sections of the Punjabi SRM are mine and I stand corrected.  The original Punjabi SRM text is taken from,

http://sgpc.net/sikhism/punjabi/sikh-dharma-manual.asp


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## chamkaur brar (Feb 15, 2011)

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (16-12)<?"urn:fficeffice" />
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
 siB rs imTy mMinAY suixAY swloxy ] (16-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
sabh ras mithay mani-ai suni-ai saalonay.
Believing, all tastes are sweet. Hearing, the salty flavors are tasted;
 Kt qursI muiK bolxw mwrx nwd kIey ] (16-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
khat tursee mukh bolnaa maaran naad kee-ay.
chanting with one's mouth, the spicy flavors are savored. All these spices have been made from the Sound-current of the Naad.
 CqIh AMimRq Bwau eyku jw kau ndir kryie ]1] (16-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
chhateeh amrit bhaa-o ayk jaa ka-o nadar karay-i. ||1||
The thirty-six flavors of ambrosial nectar are in the Love of the One Lord; they are tasted only by one who is blessed by His Glance of Grace. ||1||
 bwbw horu Kwxw KusI KuAwru ] (16-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
baabaa hor khaanaa khusee khu-aar.
O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false.
 ijqu KwDY qnu pIVIAY mn mih clih ivkwr ]1] rhwau ] (16-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jit khaaDhai tan peerhee-ai man meh chaleh vikaar. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||
 rqw pYnxu mnu rqw supydI squ dwnu ] (16-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
rataa painan man rataa supaydee sat daan.
My mind is imbued with the Lord's Love; it is 
Un fortunately consumption of  alcohal specially hard liqour in punjab per capita is highest in the word. Many times alcohal is the cause of many problems. But today there are all products of  deodERRANTS And colognes we used have alcohal content. Even we use some kind of deoderant around our Guru Granth Sahib has alcohal content.. I daily use alcohal for prepping my suregeries. I use when i start for ultrasound. I'm 100% sure that I'm getting some obsorption of alcohal in my body.  But this is all 2ndary obsorption but still it goes in my body i can  not deny it. I use daily deoderant and cologne. You name any product women use for make up starting from nail polish etc have alcohal content. so probably 99% of our Sikhs use alcohal irrespective of  their route. Even most of the syrups form of medicines has alcohal contents. So I believe knowingly or unknowingly every body has used alcohal in their life time. Only thing is abuse of alcohal is strongly contra indicated.
We can not change 5 KAKAS. That is given by our Guru. We cannot change our Gurbani. These are two pilllers of Sikh Religion.. Every other thing is changable. But still there are very good Sikhs by heart who have cut their body hair even for sanitery or other reasons. They have adopted more compelling charachterstics of  life mentioned in our Gurbani. In real life they are better than Bhekhi Sikhs { Giani jarnail singh has described above.}
BHUll Chook Muaf. I'm late inthis thread because I'm very bussy in life.
Brar


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## Jasvinder singh lota (Feb 16, 2011)

dear veerji guru fateh, while there is no denying that a vast majorty of the sikhs and it is no secret that a good number of members of gurdwara committes consume alcohol,when it comes to vote my opinion is that the vast number of sehajdari sikhs should be included in the electoral process, the conditions may be imposed only on those who stand for elections.


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## findingmyway (Feb 19, 2011)

A number of issues have been raised in this thread and the numerous other threads on alcohol and I would like to make a few points concerning them.

1) For those who support the use of alcohol (for drinking) tooth and nail, why? What does it achieve? The only reason I can see for alcohol are social reasons and to relax (whereby the alcohol is affecting your mind and body). There is not another reasonable reason for it. Most of my friends drink yet I have never had any problems with socialising. Alcohol is not necessary as long as you have the willpower. 
Here is a video about intoxicants in Sikhism;
YouTube        - Sikhism On Alcohol

2. For those that say alcohol is ok in moderation, I have dealt with the fallacies of this argument with the scientific point of view elsewhere. From a spiritual point of view there is nothing about the consumption of alcohol which is conducive to increasing your spirituality, quite the opposite. If you are going to drink be honest and admit why you are doing it rather than hiding being false curtains. I will respect you more for that. 
Alcohol is an intoxicant, no matter how small the amount imbibed. That is a fact. The Guru Granth Sahib ji is very clear on the use of intoxicants as stated already by several people. If we have the love of Guruji and the peace/happiness that brings then we should not need such distractions.

If alcohol was ok in moderation and not a slippery slope, why would organisations like alcoholics anonymous be in existence? Why would so many governments around the world be trying to tackle the problem of alcohol (separate from addiction issues). Here is one of several adverts issued by the Australian government on TV for the last 2 years;
YouTube        - Drinkwise Australia: Drink Cycle

There is a whole range of them and some are quite disturbing showing how social drinking morphs into violence and worse. There are hundreds of such campaigns. Watch this and tell me how alcohol doesn't affect your mind?
YouTube        - TAC Christmas driving

3) The final issue I want to tackle is dealing with the definition of a Sikh. Not everyone follows everything in the Guru Granth Sahib ji and SRM (myself included). In my mind the difference between a Sikh who is committed to Sikhi and one who only adheres to the label is the difference between a person who recognises what they don't follow, why they don't follow it and work on remedying the situation compared to someone who doesn't care and does as they please. Sikhism is a pathway. We are all at different points and it is upto us to make the changes within ourself rather than looking for curtains behind so we can continue to follow our minds and feel good rather than follow the Guru. This takes a lifetime so the important thing is the recognition and willingness to become the Guru's Sikhs.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 19, 2011)

FINDINGMYWAYS JI,
Divine GREETINGS

Your collection of Gurbaani Quotes is excellent and the depiction of the whole messageis wonderful.
If you can make use of the concludingg lineas'That our GURU is a perfect GURU and Who is all knowing" may be more befitting rather than the use of past tense.This is only a suggestion ,not criticism.

With best Wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 20, 2011)

JASVINDERSINGH LOTA Ji,
Your feelings are very much appreciated.You will consider a fact since there is no concept of Sahejdhari Sikh as on todays definition of a Sikh then how the inclusion for election is feasible.?

With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## barusaby (Apr 8, 2011)

trimming is the first step towards all evils for a sikh. when kesh is most important for them and an identity all over the globe, then just starting trimming breaks all the rehat maryadas. if one can restrain trimming, then he can also restrain all other evils. 

it is practical and no theory.

my nephew started trimming his beard, when the beginning hair appeared on his face. his parents waited and admonished him lightly. he got 'encouraged',

and started shaving his beard like the most punjabi singers like sukhjinder shinda and one other from kenya (famous song 'chandigarh kare ashki, munda jalandhro aa ke).

then next step was eating non-veg outside in the market, because his family is vegetarian. 

while going into bad society, he started drinking occassionaly.

then he started abusing his parents and sister.

then he started breaking the utensils and other household things to get money for his pocket money.

now he is like a boss of his house. no one dares to defy him.

and god knows what is in future for the family.

it just started with trimming.

chori ik paise di vi, chori ik lakh di vi.

it was 'just trimming' and now the result is disastrous.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 8, 2011)

inderjitk said:


> i am sikh jatt girl , ge tmany marraige proposal.my few  question i ever ask the boy is1) are u edicted to some things like gutka alcohol ,and i am pure veg..
> most of the boy replies...je daru n hi to sikh nahi...!!!!! jatt ho ke daru na piye to apni kaum badnaam ho jani....!!!!***!!!!! and koi kudi  kisi bevde sarabhi nal vyah kyu karagi...if this wont stop then i think Sikh will be known form drinking more alcohol than water...i have seen 19-20 years kids they dance with hand glass of bear and alcohol even their parents dont say any things to them..shame on such parents,themselves they donno what is sikhi and expect others to follow it...animatedkhanda1



Ok, what would you do if the boy didn't smoke or drink and ate meat? As you know as per Rehat Maryada Sikhs can eat meat. Amritdhari's are permitted to  eat non-Kuttha meat.

?

The reason why I say this is I don't drink or smoke, yet I know many Vegetarians who drink and smoke.


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## spnadmin (Apr 8, 2011)

brusaby ji

Who exactly are you describing? Is this a real person? Or is this an image of a person on the road to degeneration. Your comments are somewhat difficult to put into context. Thanks.


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 8, 2011)

Caspian said:


> I found your response interesting. I feel like if I was a devout Sikh I would share your sentiment. (I also have to agree with the poster above me, chances are, if you're clean shave—you drink; but the common perception now is that chances are, if your punjabi—you drink.) Lol, in highschool, as a tongue in cheek response to students who were ignorant of punjabi culture, we use to say "Punjabi people are alot like the Irish, they love to eat potatoes, dance, fight and drink." Of course, I realize thats just a stereotype—but that goes for the post above me as well.
> 
> I found the list of requirements interesting though and a "confirmation" of sorts of what I have been saying for a long time on this site. The question of what it means to be a "Sikh" is largely a superficial one.



It is a well known fact that Nihangs openly use bhang as an intoxicant.Pls. could someone enlighten when did they start consuming bhang and how do they justify it.
I have even posted a video on the Youtube, of Nihangs selling bhang on the roadside, on Shivratri, at Patiala.:singhsippingcoffee:[coffee too contains caffeine:grinningsingh:.]


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 8, 2011)

barusaby said:


> trimming is the first step towards all evils for a sikh. when kesh is most important for them and an identity all over the globe, then just starting trimming breaks all the rehat maryadas. if one can restrain trimming, then he can also restrain all other evils.
> 
> it is practical and no theory.
> 
> ...



A very good attempt at story-telling,but you need much more practice and imagination to make it seem more authentic.:grinningsingh:


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 8, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> It is a well known fact that Nihangs openly use bhang as an intoxicant.Pls. could someone enlighten when did they start consuming bhang and how do they justify it.
> I have even posted a video on the Youtube, of Nihangs selling bhang on the roadside, on Shivratri, at Patiala.:singhsippingcoffee:[coffee too contains caffeine:grinningsingh:.]


Jasbir Kaleka ji good questions so some comments,



> Let us look at the following,
> 
> _when did they start consuming bhang_
> That is like asking when did people realize Bhang/Cannabis/marijuana
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 8, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> brusaby ji
> 
> Who exactly are you describing? Is this a real person? Or is this an image of a person on the road to degeneration. Your comments are somewhat difficult to put into context. Thanks.



I cannot know who brusabi ji is talking about, but that is exactly what has happened in a family I know in Punjabi.  I don't know that it started with trimming, though.

It might have started with treating the boy like a little god in the home (as sons in Punjab often are), or perhaps it started with the company the boy chose to keep with no supervision from the parents.  :angryyoungkaur:  Such cases are often hard to unravel.

But trimming is definitely a big step on the road.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Apr 8, 2011)

Trimming or cutting of Kesh is actually going down a road from where few return. And all happens by Guru's Grace only.


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## spnadmin (Apr 8, 2011)

jasbirkaleka ji and Ambarsaria ji

You both  brought a smile to my face in an hour when I was pretty much down in the dumps.

I think everyone loves a Nihang. The mere sight of a Nihang reaches down deep into a lost part of the heart where spirit roams free. The question of bhang imho is well answered if only by hypothesis in Ambarsaria ji's reply. Consumption of narcotics has a long cultural story -- even in the West where opiates were not outlawed until the mid 20th Century.

It speaks to our Guru's formidable insight that intoxicants would be specifically forbidden in Gurbani, even when many other obvious  vices were not.  

Back to the Nihangs. No one really knows when the Nihangs began. The common belief is that they were formed by Guru Gobind Singh. However, there is historical evidence that they may have been a force long before that, perhaps even around during the time of Guru Hargobind ji. So it may be impossible to know when bhang became part of their life-style. 

It is probably true that consumption of bhang helped them endure great physical pain. It is probably also true that consumption of bhang made it possible to experience an other-worldly reality, akin to meditation. The use of drugs to induce altered states of mind stretches back to pre-Aryan days in India, is mentioned in the tales of Shiva as "soma," and is part of spiritual practices in many shamanistic societies. It is clear that  I have not cleared anything up. :grinningkudi:


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## seeker3k (Apr 8, 2011)

Why any one have to do nasha of any kind?

I am jatt too and I also use to drink at get together. I also made my own daru in UK at home. IT has been more then 40 years since I touched whisky meat egg fish,

In my understanding I maybe wrong on this. Most people drink to feel confident. Once one know himself he/she don’t need any nasha to feel good. IT is all with in one just have to look inward. Why I am doing what I am doing?

 There is pear pressure by the society. One who is strong will not be swayed by any one.We are all depended on many thing some on nasha,meat,coffee, tea, so on and on. We are hooked on taste and nasha. That mean we who are doing these nashas are slave of those thing. I say become free do not be slave of any thing or any one.


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## barusaby (Apr 20, 2011)

there is one term "100%"

and whatever i wrote, is 100% true. HE is my own bhaanja. And I am really surprized to get replies like the one of yours. and one other person, who says that i am good at story telling.

and i have also seen so many other examples of youth, who started with trimming and are now a nuisance for their parents and society.

and they have become really a KALANK on sikhi.

and at last, i am also disheartened that a completely true and authentic description about my own bhaanja seemed to you people a STORY.


god bless you.

sikhan da mann neevan matt uchchi. we daily pray.

and i pray right now again the same.


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## davinderdhanjal (Apr 21, 2011)

Education is necessary to be able to discern the difference between 'good' and 'bad'.
In my life I have consumed alcohol and stopped too. It takes at least three to four weeks before one returns to normality to pick up the pieces again.
One thing that is missing in most comments is the reason why we should not drink - just saying GGSJ says does not help those who do not get that far. The reason has to help those who feel either they will improve by not drinking or achieve oneness with the Lord.
The example of the person who started with trimming beard and degenerated from that is in my view truer than anything I have come across.
In a book called conversation with God - the person explains that difference between a mere person and people like Guru Nanak and the like is that the latter follow the the inner voice (god's direction) at all corners. Whereas we my think I can bend this slightly without anybody or anything visibly damning and from there on one deviates from straight route pointing to Truth (Lord), the longer we keep doing that farther we lose the way. Just imagine if you wanted to revert back - could you retrace those bends you took - to get back on the right path?
In my personal experiance once I started drinking the thinking was coloured - everything I wanted to do had to do with drink - you cannot think 'good', if there is a choice of 'good with some drink' I would look for those directions - to get away from that process may take years. In my case it took a book by Bhai Randhir Singh to show me the strength you can achieve by following Sikhi.
With all due respect to GGSJ - the answer has to be example in live form - then a person may be ready to get to the level where one can find answers in GGSJ. Sikhi is not easy but once you are a Gursikh not much can touch you either!
As a matter of interest about Bang etc. - Babarnama has good explanation of what Babar used to use as intoxicants to go round teachings of Islam - may be Nihangs may have followed his example.


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## Amarpal (Apr 21, 2011)

Dear Khalsa Ji,

Guru Sahib has asked his Sikhs to keep their brain sharp, clean and focused. Thus any intake or addiction that impinges on the capabilities of the brain is contrary to the teachings of Siri Guru Granth Sahib. Hence a true Sikh should not eat of drink any intoxicating substance. this includes alchohol or any such drug.

This is my understanding.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## seeker3k (Apr 21, 2011)

Davinderdhanjal asked the very good question. Why one should not drink
Alcohal is bad for liver. Maybe this is not enough reason to not to drink. There is a big reason why man should not drink. I mean over drink. One peg a day can be beneficial. But it is best not to drink. The real good reason is that in the west there have been many studies done. Excess drink for man is it makes a man impotent.  I have a chance to help about 10 men in this. I show them the research how it is bad and makes one impotent. One of the things I tell them if they don’t stop drinking their wife’s will start looking for another man for the satisfaction. Few have lost their wife. It was too late for them but they stopped drinking. Some of then are white men.
Whisky cost money many men run out of money before the payday. I also showed them how they can save money by not drinking and smoking.
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
Waste money 
Miss work
Lose good friends
Lose health
Lose self-confidence.
Fight in family.
Set bad examples for kids
Can end up in jail.
<o> </o>
            Naam khumari nanka,cheri hare din-rat.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 21, 2011)

There are many physical reasons not to drink.  

There are also spiritual reasons not to drink (or take other drugs, too.)  When I have intoxicants in my system, I simply cannot maintain anything like a contact with Akal Purakh.  For various ailments. I have my doctor has prescribed narcotic painkillers.  I find that if I take them, my nitnem is just a jumble of sounds, naam jap becomes mechanical and self-hypnotic and forget any other sort of simran.  

To me this is more serious than messing up my liver.


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## Harwinder (Apr 21, 2011)

Alcohol Was orginally used and invented as medicene; correct me if i am wrong. Soon there after people started using it as recreational and entertainment is when it got bad. People liked the affect it had. 

"Anything to an excisive amount is not good for you"

Alcohol Should stay as a medicine and thats it


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## seeker3k (Apr 21, 2011)

For the normal person the pain killers are needed. The trick is not get hooked on pain killers.
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
In my case when I had heart by-pass at the hospital they gave me pain killer. When I got home after 3 days they gave me bottle of pain killer. I took it for 2 days. I stopped taking them. It doesn’t mean I was not in pain. I can control the pain up to some extent. 
<o> </o>
What I am about to say is not what I approve or tell any one to try it.
Bhang on the other hand is different. For long time I wanted to do the experiment. About 15 years ago I went to <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> there bhang grows wild all over. So I eat it in samosas. It took about 30-40 min to take effect. My nephews were all giggling out of control.
I lay down on bed and try to meditate. I was feeling the same sensation as I were in samdhi. Bhabg can be used to go in Samadhi. But the trick is not to get hooked on it like th nahangs are.
<o> </o>
It is the self control that one need for not to drink or take any nasha to relax.
Bhang is very detrimental for the sex life.


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## barusaby (Apr 22, 2011)

Why should we not drink?

To be natural is obeying the Hukam of the Almighty. Whenever one goes unnatural, he defies the Hukam. Cutting the hair, provided by the Almighty, is unnatural. Eating meat, is unnatural, because the structure of teeth of man is to be only vegetarian as compared to animals, who have their teeth specially structured to tear apart the flesh. Drinking alcohol is also unnatural, as unlike water, it affects badly the senses, and attacks organs to lead them to failure and other deadly diseases. i have seen people going mad after drinking. i saw twice this example in my life. my sister's Devar (brother in law) in bombay went mad twice, as we went to have dinner to my sister's Nanaan (sister in law). Devar went on to tear apart his Baniyan (under garment) after fighting his sister's father. He went on to abuse that respectable man in front of all the family members. He was thrown out of the house, then he started threatening the neighbors with brick in his hands. I have numerous examples where drinking alcohol took men out of their senses. My own elder brother went out of senses many times and started abusing my parents by calling them Tu Tu instead of Tusi Tusi..........


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2011)

Barusby Ji,

The "TEETH" argument doesnt stand at all.
Human Teeth are NOT exactly like those of the cow, horse, elephant, buffalo, sheep - purely vegetarians. They have NO TEARING TEETH..mostly GRINDERS ONLY.
The teeth of PURELY FLESH eating animals are more inclined to TEARING flesh and very less towards GRINDING.
However Humans have BOTH types..TEARING ones as well as GRINDERS. Other primates like Monkeys oran utans, gorillas etc also have this DUAL Combination.

This is BIOLOGY and can be proven absolutley. ....unlike Gurbani tuks which cna be "misconstrued/truncated to change their tune...meaning..etc according to ones own opinions.

Regards:happysingh::interestedsingh:


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## spnadmin (Apr 22, 2011)

*I have just moved two posts to the thread Fools Who Wrangle over Flesh http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

For some reason Gyani's comment about teeth triggered a digression. Maybe we need to reconsider his meaning as he  talks about teeth in context. He is not getting at the question of meat versus veg. Thanks. *


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## davinderdhanjal (Apr 23, 2011)

I have not researched this but Guru Gobind Singh when he was attacked and I believe a dagger punctured his stomach - that had to be cleaned up and then stiched. What was used to numb that area of the body? For that matter the Gursikhs in wars must have had similar injuries that needed attention - how did they get over that?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Apr 23, 2011)

Isn't it weird that we can prove something absolutely in Biology? While someone can present us Gurbani Tuks in a way which can mislead us? Why? Probably because we have just learnt to read and recite Gurbani! Our own wisdom in understanding Gurbani is so weak, that anyone can tell us anything and we will agree. For we never try and read Gurbani ourselves. We do paaths of Nitnem many times over, but we know less than 40% of what we read.


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2011)

Kanwaljit.Singh said:


> Isn't it weird that we can prove something absolutely in Biology?



Nothing is ever proved absolutely in any science, Biology or otherwise. This is one of the common misunderstandings that leads to a foolish wrangle between religion and science.



> Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science.  Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists.  The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof.  All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence.  Proofs are not the currency of science.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

The practice of science is the practice of disproof. Science is a continual search for evidence that creates doubt about current understanding, and that opens up new questions for investigation and discovery. If this were not so, science would have laid back for a long snooze on past discoveries centuries ago and nothing new would be put forward. 
icecreamkaur


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## Tejwant Singh1 (Apr 23, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

This is in reply to Devenderdanjal's question below:-

"I have not researched this but Guru Gobind Singh when he was attacked and I believe a dagger punctured his stomach - that had to be cleaned up and then stiched. What was used to numb that area of the body? For that matter the Gursikhs in wars must have had similar injuries that needed attention - how did they get over that?"

In the Indian scenario, Haldi was given to the injured. The injured were made to drink Haldi mixed in warm milk. As Haldi went in, it blocked small blood vessels which were leaking. To block larger blood vessels, Haldi poultice was applied externally. The Vaid of the army used to carry plenty of Haldi.
It is difficult to say how the Sikhs managed specially when they were on the run and fighting at odd times for their survival. We can admire their grit. That is what Sikhi is all about.
Ash is anti septic. If you keep something buried in ash it does not go bad. And it prevents ants and other insects and maggots from getting at the item. I suppose, the needle and thread used for stitching wounds must have been preserved in this manner.

May be someone else who reads SPN can throw more light on this.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2011)

@ Tejwant Singh1 ji and davinderdhanjal ji

Guru Gobind Singh was slashed in the left side below the heart. He was attended by a European surgeon attached to the Persian court. Guru survived for a while, but the wound opened up. Later he died of blood poisoning. 





> Sakhian pursued the Guru secretly and overtook him at Nanded, where, according to Sri Gur Sobha by Senapati,  a contemporary writer, one of them stabbed the Guru in the left side below the heart as he lay one evening in his chamber resting after the Rahrasi prayer. Before he could deal another blow, Guru Gobind Singh struck him down with his sabre, while his fleeing companion fell under the swords of Sikhs who had rushed in on hearing the noise. As the news reached Bahadur Shah's camp, he sent expert surgeons, including an Englishman, Cole by name, to attend on the Guru. The wound was stitched and appeared to have healed quickly but, as the Guru one day applied strength to pull a stiff bow, it broke out again and bled profusely. This weakened the Guru beyond cure and he passed away on Kattak sudi 5, 1765 Bk/7 October 1708.


 http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/nanak10.html

There is other evidence that the surgeon was an Italian/Venetian. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/32474-did-italian-surgeon-attend-guru-gobind-3.html


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## seeker3k (Apr 23, 2011)

There is contradiction in this. One sakhi says it was Cole English doctor other says it was Italian/
I think sakhis were written long after the death of Guru. What really happened no one knows.
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
It was demonstrated by acupuncturist that pressing on some point in the body the bleeding and pain can be stoped. Yogies know how to do that too. It is not hard to control the pain. Haldi is good to stop bleeding and it is antiseptic. There are few herbs that rubed on any part of body it can num that part.
<o> </o>
I wonder how far was Bhadur Shah  from the guru’s camp?
There is another explanation of the death of Guru. It will not sit well with Sikhs so I better not say any thing.


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> There is contradiction in this. One sakhi says it was Cole English doctor other says it was Italian/
> I think sakhis were written long after the death of Guru. What really happened no one knows.
> <?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
> It was demonstrated by acupuncturist that pressing on some point in the body the bleeding and pain can be stoped. Yogies know how to do that too. It is not hard to control the pain. Haldi is good to stop bleeding and it is antiseptic. There are few herbs that rubed on any part of body it can num that part.
> ...



seekr3 ji

At first glance it seems contradictory, but not really. First of all these are not skahi's but taken form Persian sources, historical accounts. Second, name "Cole" may have been a mis-spelling of the Italian name. So the account of the time was mixed up. Read the thread at the second link and you will see what I am talking about. There are some fascinating, and relatively unknown aspects, of Guru Gobind Singh's life at that thread.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 26, 2011)

I think the question of alcohol is quite simple, and I think it applies equally to bhang, cough medicine, painkillers etc. 

If you wish to converse with the almighty, you need to be as sober as a judge, and as clean minded as a saint.

If you wish to belong to a social group then it doesn't matter what you drink or think..

each of us takes out of sikhism what we want, but I have much respect for anyone who desires a presence with the almighty to the point where that feeling naturally dwarfs any intoxicant. It is not a question of should i? but why would i?


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## Randip Singh (Apr 26, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> Why any one have to do nasha of any kind?
> 
> I am jatt too and I also use to drink at get together. I also made my own daru in UK at home. IT has been more then 40 years since I touched whisky meat egg fish,
> 
> ...


 

Why are you associating meat with alcohol? SRM does not forbid Sikhs from eating meat?

Where is the Nasha in meat? Are you saying that vegetarian food tastes bad and tasteless? You never eat Halwa? Ladoo? Rass Malaee? Kheer?

Your comments are illogical.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 26, 2011)

barusaby said:


> Why should we not drink?
> 
> To be natural is obeying the Hukam of the Almighty. Whenever one goes unnatural, he defies the Hukam. Cutting the hair, provided by the Almighty, is unnatural. Eating meat, is unnatural, because the structure of teeth of man is to be only vegetarian as compared to animals, who have their teeth specially structured to tear apart the flesh. Drinking alcohol is also unnatural, as unlike water, it affects badly the senses, and attacks organs to lead them to failure and other deadly diseases. .....


 

Err no.

Humans are omnivores and have both types of teeth. We have Caninses as well.

Alcohol is contained in many medicines and can help medical conditions (in moderation).

As for Hair....it's not unnatural to cut, we choose to keep hair because we are Sikh.


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## spnadmin (Apr 26, 2011)

*On notice: I have already moved several recent comments from this Thread to Fools Who Wrangle over Flesh this week. Please do not associate the word "teeth" with meat and  then go  from teeth to meat to alcohol. Next time, deletion. Thanks, spnadmin*


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## seeker3k (Apr 26, 2011)

Randip Singh JI,
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
I did not associate meat with alcohol. I just saying what I do. I am sorry if it mean that way. I do not tell any one what to eat and what not to eat. Here is a reason why I said what I said.
WTW I could not find any where in the SGGS that one can should eat meat. If you know where I can find it I’ll be very thankful to you.
<o> </o>
The question is why we eat what we eat. And drink 
#  One reason is to sustain the body. It was meant to be the simple food to keep the body healthy. As human we get addicted by the taste of the food. We eat for the taste of and form habit. It become desire to eat tasty food. We start to crave it. It mean we get slave to tasty food. When we are slave of something or some one. We are not doing any thing on our own. I do not mean we should eat bad tasting food. What I am saying we should not crave for any thing. We should eat what is good for the body and mind. Take full control of your self.
<o> </o>
Here in the west many people white and our own ask me why I don’t eat meat. They accuse me of being Radha suami. I tell them I gave up the meat and drinking for the same reason you eat and drink. Many just can not understand what I am saying. Some say we eat meat because we like the taste of meat. I say that is the reason I don’t eat meat because that I liked it too. Many says that is strange reason. People give up that they don’t like but you gave up what you like?  It is to control of my self. I gave up roti for many years because I found I was addicted to roti. All jatts must eat roti otherwise he is not a jatt.
<o> </o>
In my work I use to meet many people for work reason. There I drank coffee. The coffee is the social drink after the whiskey. MY wife does not like the smell of coffee so at home I never made or drank coffee. My wife also develop arthritis. I use to tell her to give up morning tea. After listening to me for couple of years she channeled me to give up coffee. She said that I drink coffee out with friends. That was in November of 2004. After that I never had coffee. She still drink tea.
<o> </o>
In my view I don’t have the right to tell others what to drink or do, if I am doing that.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 27, 2011)

[


seeker3k said:


> Randip Singh JI,<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><?"urn:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



<o> </o>
You clearly did associate the two…as one seemed to go hand in hand with another….this is clearly not the case.
<o> </o>
In the same context, one could argue the Guru Granth Sahib ji does not tell you to eat Halwa. It does not tell you to eat Bhel puri. The Guru Granth Sahib ji is not an a la carte menu.
<o> </o>
The Sikh Rehat Maryada does not forbid Sikhs from eating meat bar Kutthaa meat.
<o> </o>
…and Guru Nanak says “that those people who hold up their noses to meat devour people at night”!!!
<o> </o>


seeker3k said:


> The question is why we eat what we eat. And drink
> # One reason is to sustain the body. It was meant to be the simple food to keep the body healthy. As human we get addicted by the taste of the food. We eat for the taste of and form habit. It become desire to eat tasty food. We start to crave it. It mean we get slave to tasty food. When we are slave of something or some one. We are not doing any thing on our own. I do not mean we should eat bad tasting food. What I am saying we should not crave for any thing. We should eat what is good for the body and mind. Take full control of your self.



<o> </o>
Define simple food?
<o> </o>
For the native plains American, the buffalo is simple food. For the Eskimo, seal meat is simple food.
<o> </o>
…..and we do not take control of ourselves, as that is defined as Munmookee. We let Waheguru take control of ourselves
<o> </o>


seeker3k said:


> Here in the west many people white and our own ask me why I don’t eat meat. They accuse me of being Radha suami. I tell them I gave up the meat and drinking for the same reason you eat and drink. Many just can not understand what I am saying. Some say we eat meat because we like the taste of meat. I say that is the reason I don’t eat meat because that I liked it too. Many says that is strange reason. People give up that they don’t like but you gave up what you like? It is to control of my self. I gave up roti for many years because I found I was addicted to roti. All jatts must eat roti otherwise he is not a jatt.



<o> </o>
The Guru’s tell us this sort of abstinence is a folly. What is more beneficial is being in balance. Eating all sorts of food but in moderation is better.
<o> </o>
<o> </o>
Just eating meat is bad for you. Just eating Daal is bad for you.
<o> </o>
If you don’t eat meat, then that is up to you.
<o> </o>
<o> </o>


seeker3k said:


> In my work I use to meet many people for work reason. There I drank coffee. The coffee is the social drink after the whiskey. MY wife does not like the smell of coffee so at home I never made or drank coffee. My wife also develop arthritis. I use to tell her to give up morning tea. After listening to me for couple of years she channeled me to give up coffee. She said that I drink coffee out with friends. That was in November of 2004. After that I never had coffee. She still drink tea.
> In my view I don’t have the right to tell others what to drink or do, if I am doing that.




Like alcohol it depends what you are using coffee for. Many of my fellow bodybuilders use half a cup of coffee as a stimulant just before weighlifting. Too much caffeine is bad.
<o> </o>
The same applies to alcohol. Alcohol can be used in medicines. Some people use it as a cold remedy.
<o> </o>
I avoid alcohol because we have many alcoholics in my family, but I drink coffee and tea in moderation. I drink plenty of water. I also eat vegetables, meat, bread and even some sweet things in Moderation and in balance. This is what all the symbols in Sikhism allude us to. BALANCE! Be it Shakti and Bhakti. Miri and Piri, or our symbol (the Nishan Sahib). All perfectly balanced!!!


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## Harry Haller (Apr 28, 2011)

This is an interesting debate, as it touches something that is bothering me today, I have been described as having an addictive personality, and as such have craved most of the pleasures God put on this earth (yes, i know strange for an atheist to acknowledge God, but just because I don't believe, does not mean God does not exist).In my experience the hardest thing an addict can do is come to some sort of peace with his addiction, and then conquer it, so that it remains  a moderation. 

I agree that denying yourself pleasure because you enjoy something too much is the path of asceticism, which I do not believe to be in the spirit of sikhism.


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