# What Would You Do If Your Child Did Not Believe In God



## anon (Mar 3, 2013)

Hi everyone. I'm a 19 year old boy. I keep my hair, I have a non trimmed beard. but the funny thing is i don't believe in god. I don't want to spark any religious debates as to weather or not god exists but lately I've found myself quite depressed.

My belief in God became weaker and weaker, but please don't convince me there is a god and that Sikhism is true, that's a totally different debate and perhaps we can debate on that about another topic. the fact is in my heart I am not a Sikh. I wouldn't classify myself as atheist but perhaps more agnostic. 

I am in conflict with various Sikh principles

1) I don't want to keep my Kesh
2) I don't want to have to marry a Sikh woman of my parents choosing
3) I don't want to have to raise any children as Sikh, rather I would want them to have the freedom to choose what they believe in

so the solution seems obvious right, i just come out of the agnostic closet, cut my hair, shave my beard and live my life as a free man doing what i want. I have a problem though... I love my parents. Weather you think it's an act of got or just human psychology, I love my Mom and Dad and hate seeing them in pain. Proclaiming i don't believe in God, marrying a non-sikh girl and cutting my hair would upset them  a lot... so i have two choices


1) I break their hearts and live my life how I want
2) I continue with the ruse, I wear a khanda around my neck, i act like im praying when i'm at the gudwara, i marry a Sikh girl and raise a child Sikh, and tell them that the Sikh way of life is the best even though that's what i dont believe.

This stuff keeps me up at night and really upsets me, damned if i do and damned if i don't. I don't think i'm the only person who is in this situation so here's what i wanted to say to all of you parents out there: I understand you want your kids to be Sikh, teach them about Sikhism, but allow them to be open, allow them to express their thoughts and FOR GODS SAKE don't emotionally blackmail them...

so here's a scenario, little Billy walks in clutching several books on theology, philosophy and ethics. He proclaims "Mom! Dad! i love you both very much, our values are very similar however I don't believe in the Guru's, and I don't believe in god. My Moral's are derived from great thinkers and philosophers and my own concious.. now that i have researched my beliefs may i please stop going to the gudwara, may i please cut my hair... and can i focus on my Spanish coursework instead of having to learn the Punjabi alphabet!"

Do you slap the little runt, or perhaps you respect his beliefs, and live together?


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## spnadmin (Mar 3, 2013)

anon ji

Welcome to SPN. I will try to keep the thread from tossing and turning into those directions -- Is there a God? and Sikhism is True -- but can't promise. Forums are forums.

You have several things working for you. You are 19. That means you have time and can reflect. You only have to tell people that "you want time to think."

You are reflective and think very clearly. Look at how well you set out your issues here. And you wrote them in a very balanced tone. To me that means you can explain why you need time to decide on very important issues and be clear about it.

You have a future for making discoveries about yourself. Do not think that today you are an "agnostic" and that is that. 10 years from now, perhaps some form of Sikhi will make sense and you will seek a way to live that life. 

Life is a journey and journeys are meant to be travelled. The process of growing and changing happens to our minds and hearts too. So keep track of where you are and you will always know.

Here at SPN there are members who will share their stories with you. That is something else you have going for you. Intelligent and caring partners on that journey.


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## spnadmin (Mar 3, 2013)

admin note: The thread topic got lost!

*OK...so this is the thread topic. Hope we all stick to it.*

so here's a scenario, little Billy walks in clutching several books on theology, philosophy and ethics. He proclaims "Mom! Dad! i love you both very much, our values are very similar however I don't believe in the Guru's, and I don't believe in god. My Moral's are derived from great thinkers and philosophers and my own concious.. now that i have researched my beliefs may i please stop going to the gudwara, may i please cut my hair... and can i focus on my Spanish coursework instead of having to learn the Punjabi alphabet!"

Do you slap the little runt, or perhaps you respect his beliefs, and live together?


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## Harry Haller (Mar 3, 2013)

> Hi everyone. I'm a 19 year old boy. I keep my hair, I have a non trimmed  beard. but the funny thing is i don't believe in god. I don't want to  spark any religious debates as to weather or not god exists but lately  I've found myself quite depressed.


Uhm Im a 43 year old man, I don't keep my hair, I have a goatee, and I don't believe in god either, welcome to the club!



> My belief in God became weaker and weaker, but please don't convince me  there is a god and that Sikhism is true, that's a totally different  debate and perhaps we can debate on that about another topic. the fact  is in my heart I am not a Sikh. I wouldn't classify myself as atheist  but perhaps more agnostic.


I would never attempt to convince anyone that there is a 'god', however Sikhism is true, very true, you seem a tad bit confused between Sikhism and the Abrahamic religions. I would put it to you that everything you know about Sikhism is slanted towards the Abrahamic and as such, you possibly have little idea what Sikhism actually is. 



> I am in conflict with various Sikh principles
> 
> 1) I don't want to keep my Kesh
> 2) I don't want to have to marry a Sikh woman of my parents choosing
> 3) I don't want to have to raise any children as Sikh, rather I would  want them to have the freedom to choose what they believe in


The kesh is not a principle, it is an outward sign for those that have found peace, it is a show of love for Creation and Creator, and it acts as a beacon to those that need help. In my view, it should only be present in those Sikhs that have the heart and soul to match the appearance of a Sikh. For the rest of us, it is a long road to this point, but one to which we all aspire to. 

As for marrying a woman of your parents choosing, again, I think you are confusing Punjabi tradition for Sikh principles. I am a Sikh, I am married to a welsh woman, actually even that is not true, as we are not actually married. 

Your point about your children I agree with, but again, because you wish your children to have free will, has no bearing on your being a Sikh. 



> so the solution seems obvious right, i just come out of the agnostic  closet, cut my hair, shave my beard and live my life as a free man doing  what i want. I have a problem though... I love my parents. Weather you  think it's an act of got or just human psychology, I love my Mom and Dad  and hate seeing them in pain. Proclaiming i don't believe in God,  marrying a non-sikh girl and cutting my hair would upset them  a lot...  so i have two choices
> 
> 1) I break their hearts and live my life how I want
> 2) I continue with the ruse, I wear a khanda around my neck, i act like  im praying when i'm at the gudwara, i marry a Sikh girl and raise a  child Sikh, and tell them that the Sikh way of life is the best even  though that's what i dont believe.


haha, come out of the agnostic closet and find your brother and sister Sikhs, Sikhism as most Sikhs know it has nothing to do with Sikhism and everything to do with pride, ego, money, power, drink, big lush mercedes benzes, ardasses full of requests for more money, more mercedes benzes, bigger factories, all conducted by our beloved priest class, most of whom would sell their soul for a bottle of scotch. Most Sikhs are already out of the closet my friend, and most are agnostics, those that are not, view Sikhism as an Abrahamic religion, by which I mean, they personalise god, like you have, they pray to god, and ask god for favours, and try and please god, and make sure god does not get angry, heaven forbid, or you may be denied entrance to paradise, and have to spend eternity in the Sikh version of hell, which is basically full of fat aunties trying to force more samosas down you, before flinging you into vats of ghee...... 

Many many Sikhs have refused to renounce Sikhism even when threatened with the most painful torture, in fact, when clearly , in todays world, the equivilant is the shame that is heaped on a parent when the child goes 'native'. As for acting like your praying when your at Gurdwara, what makes you so special??? everyone else is!



> This stuff keeps me up at night and really upsets me, damned if i do and  damned if i don't. I don't think i'm the only person who is in this  situation so here's what i wanted to say to all of you parents out  there: I understand you want your kids to be Sikh, teach them about  Sikhism, but allow them to be open, allow them to express their thoughts  and FOR GODS SAKE don't emotionally blackmail them...


Aw come on, you mean deprive them of all that fun they have??? hell, the emotional blackmail has been heaped on them when they were your age, and they went through it all, so they are going to be damned if they are not allowed to payback! and now its payback time. 



> so here's a scenario, little Billy walks in clutching several books on  theology, philosophy and ethics. He proclaims "Mom! Dad! i love you both  very much, our values are very similar however I don't believe in the  Guru's, and I don't believe in god. My Moral's are derived from great  thinkers and philosophers and my own concious.. now that i have  researched my beliefs may i please stop going to the gudwara, may i  please cut my hair... and can i focus on my Spanish coursework instead  of having to learn the Punjabi alphabet!"
> 
> 
> 
> Do you slap the little runt, or perhaps you respect his beliefs, and live together?


uhmmmm, I am afraid its runt slapping time!

Ok, now the serious bit. 

Sikhism is like nothing you have been told about, no one should be forced to be a Sikh, and there is much much more to being a Sikh than wearing a turban and eating saag, whilst dancing drunkenly holding a bottle of booze. 

Sikhism is about being in consonance, with Creation, and ultimately with Creator. Creator is not a huge beardy sitting on a cloud in the sky looking down and smiling when you please your parents, or grimacing when you play with yourself, Creator is part of you, is in you, as it is in all Creation. The object of life is to be part of Creation, to use all the philsophy that you come across, the knowledge, the wisdom, to rise above the common denominator and to live by the truth, the ultimate truth. Once you get the hang of this, you will be then given chances to assist Creation, lucky you, and the chance to use this knowledge and wisdom to help others, so there is actually a point to  your being alive other than self pleasure. The exception to this is owning a range rover, you are allowed to own a range rover, as the experience will teach you a lot and is not very pleasurable most of the time. 

Read some of the threads here, learn about TRUE Sikhism, together, me, you, everyone else on this forum, we can discuss, we can debate, we can learn, and once you realise what TRUE Sikhism is, then you can decide if you wish to turn your back on it or not. 

Good Luck, feel free to pm me if those sleepless nights get too much for you



P.S. my 'wife' is the truest Sikh I have ever met, yet looks like the least likely canditate, being a good Sikh comes from the heart, from inside, not in following pointless ritual and customs.


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## anon (Mar 3, 2013)

With all due respect. your not really answering the question at all. You have given me a lot to think about with what you have told me is Sikh philosophy, however I am asking you to address a reality... a reality which I think affects a lot of us in that a lot of stuff, in the name of sikhism (weather or not it truly is sikhism) is forced on Kids.

I don't feel like I can say anything where I disagree with you... the way i want to live doesn't conflict with anything your saying and I feel like your drawing me into a debate about Sikh Philosophy as opposed to the more practical issue of how your average Joe Singh comes out of his atheist closet and doesn't break his mommy's heart


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## Harry Haller (Mar 3, 2013)

anon said:


> With all due respect. your not really answering the question at all. You have given me a lot to think about with what you have told me is Sikh philosophy, however I am asking you to address a reality... a reality which I think affects a lot of us in that a lot of stuff, in the name of sikhism (weather or not it truly is sikhism) is forced on Kids.
> 
> I don't feel like I can say anything where I disagree with you... the way i want to live doesn't conflict with anything your saying and I feel like your drawing me into a debate about Sikh Philosophy as opposed to the more practical issue of how your average Joe Singh comes out of his atheist closet and doesn't break his mommy's heart



Well, there is worse, and that is finding out the truth about Sikhism and living a life of a good Sikh, along the way, trashing all the rituals, traditions and supersitions that still blight us as Sikhs, believe me, if you want to break your mommy's heart, this will break it a lot quicker. Mommy's can deal with rebels, but being told that everything you know is wrong is a different matter. 

I stand by my post, what else am I going to debate other than Sikh philosophy on a Sikh philosophy forum lol!

As for the practical issue , uhm I cannot help you with that one, that is one for you and your family, its about pride, izzat, its about the community, about what people think, about respect, I can't help you with any of that, I left that behind years ago, I will pass that one on to someone else, good luck!

I suppose, I should add how I left that behind years ago, as it may assist you in your decision making, Sickened of being told how to live, and how important it was to wear my turban, and do the right things, sick of the superstitions, the rituals, the traditions, the honour, the respect, I left home and instead decided to do everything that was 'banned', women, booze, drugs, bankruptcy, prison, 3 heart attacks, and no contact at all with family other than my parents, who always stood by me, so here I stand, battle scarred, but content, and true to myself. I am close to my parents, but disowned by the rest of the family, so no weddings, no paths, nothing, no invites (hooray), so that is what you have to ask yourself, be true to yourself by all means, but you risk losing your family, your family heritage, being part of the community, your cousins, your uncles, your aunties, everything, for me, it was a no brainer, for you, it might be different. It all depends how true to yourself you wish to be, and how important that side of your life is. Obviously, I took it to an extreme, there are compromises you could investigate.


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## Rory (Mar 3, 2013)

> 1) I break their hearts and live my life how I want
> 2) I continue with the ruse, I wear a khanda around my neck, i act like  im praying when i'm at the gudwara, i marry a Sikh girl and raise a  child Sikh, and tell them that the Sikh way of life is the best even  though that's what i dont believe.


Let's paraphrase.



> 1) Tell them the plain truth.
> 2) Tell them an elaborate lie.


When put that way I think it is fairly clear what you should do.
Don't live a lie.


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## Luckysingh (Mar 3, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> admin note: The thread topic got lost!
> 
> *OK...so this is the thread topic. Hope we all stick to it.*
> 
> ...


 

Slap the living daylights out of 'the spoilt little brat !!!
Then blame your wife/husband for 'chamalating' and spoiling the little runt !!!

Only joking !!!

Seriously, my first reaction would be to make the child go away and really think about it hard before making such a decision !!
As parents, we don't want our kids to learn the hard lessons that we had to.
We don't want them to make irrational decisions that they may come to regret later on.

Best way for a parent is to tell the kid that you too had such thoughts at that age !!
Sadly though, I did, and was a deist (atheist that believes God but not religion) for over 10 years.............
...........Until..............a God-blessed AWAKENING many many years later !!


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## TigerStyleZ (Mar 3, 2013)

Brother ,  can you explain us more about what are your understanding about "Sikhi"? You seem to know only about the run-of-the-mill Sikhi that is showed and teached by most parents. I myself experienced this.  You seem to be a little insurgent like I am one( I can see it through your 'mommy mommy' phrase), you are a little rebell . 

You seem to be not quite  sure  and you are insecure  about what you are doing is right or wrong , you dont even made up your mind fully. If you would have it ,you would have go the way you want .

You wrote :
 "allow them to express their thoughts and FOR GODS SAKE don't emotionally blackmail them..."

But what about you? Arent you emotinally blackmailing them too if you leave Sikhi? If you dont listen to them , dont do what they want? The same applies to you... You are to close minded - if you are so philosophical , you should have to  listen  and analyse both vies and  aspects. Parents want  the best for their KIDS -even if you dont understand it - they love you and want that you dont make the mistake they made + they want you to go on the right path. And you are saying that you want to live your life and have a free will? Buddy you already have a FREE live a free willa free thiking, if you wouldnt have it, you wouldnt even have  known about agnostics/atheists and esspeically wouldnt have thought about such things..... 

You know what? A SIkh is an atheist , agnostic , theist  .... and philosoph at the same time , do you know why? Because  Sikhi isnt about convincing anyone that there is a god, nor he is going to argue , because proving is not a part   - it is about putting UNIVERSIAL wisdom into someones life and  further practice it... ( Dont take that to literaly .. it is more meant to be figurative)


And at the end : If you  say your moral comes from great thikers and philsophes , you absoluetly know NOTHING about Gurus , the Gurus were GREAT THINKERS and PHILSOPHERS as well, as all BHAGATS . You seem to know nothing about them , every men with normal common sense would  say that  the Gurus were great thinkers...!


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## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2013)

> You know what? A SIkh is an atheist , agnostic , theist  .... and  philosoph at the same time , do you know why? Because  Sikhi isnt about  convincing anyone that there is a god, nor he isgoing to argue , because  he can´t prove it  - it is about putting UNIVERSIAL wisdom into  someones life and  further practice it... ( Dont take that to literaly  .. it is more meant to be figurative)
> 
> 
> And at the : If you  say your moral comes from great thikers and  philsophes , you absoluetly know NOTHING about Gurus , the Gurus were  GREAT THINKERS and PHILSOPHES as well, as all BHAGATS . You seem to know  nothing about them , every men with normal common sense would  say that   the Gurus were great thinkers...!


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## Astroboy (Mar 4, 2013)

You're definitely going to hurt your parents big time. But it is their problem as to how fast they recover from these depressing thoughts of your 'own choice thing'. It could take from a year to a lifetime, depending from how orthodox they themselves are.

as far as you're concerned, you're not a free man by doing your own thing because soon you'll realize that to live in society is to abide by the rules. It's just a matter of what type of rules you give more importance to. You're NOT free from social rules.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 4, 2013)

On a brighter note, my son Trimaan Singh Malik,17, a Senior at High School has won the first prize in the County Debate Competition held this weekend. 

He is the only *Turbaned Sikh* since his Elementary school -The  Lone Ranger-,who has been winning in debates from 6th grade onward. We have just a handful of Patka/Turban wearing Sikh boys in the state of Nevada. 

I am just a blessed dad.


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## TigerStyleZ (Mar 4, 2013)

"So the solution seems obvious right, i just come out of the agnostic  closet, cut my hair, shave my beard and live my life as a free man doing  what i want......"

 "marrying a non-sikh girl "

I guess this is the real problem here..


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## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2013)

Astroboy said:


> You're definitely going to hurt your parents big time. But it is their problem as to how fast they recover from these depressing thoughts of your 'own choice thing'. It could take from a year to a lifetime, depending from how orthodox they themselves are.
> 
> as far as you're concerned, you're not a free man by doing your own thing because soon you'll realize that to live in society is to abide by the rules. It's just a matter of what type of rules you give more importance to. You're NOT free from social rules.



Astroboyji

I think your missing the point here, if more parents spent more time learning about true Sikhism, instead of the Vedicised, ritualistic, superstitious traditional Punjabi rubbish that they think passes for Sikhism then we would have less people like our good friend here. 

If parents focused more on Sikh aspects of living, instead of nothing but physical attributes, there would be more foundation, more understanding, more idea of what being a good Sikh constitutes. 

I personally would not and could not live in such a hyprocritical society, so, frankly, I do not blame the way he feels. Ironically, the rules you speak of, are not Sikh rules, but traditional Vedic Punjabi rules. In fact the very rules our first Guru sought to break. 

It IS possible to be free from social rules, I can testify to that, however, Sikhism is not about following what is social and not socially acceptable, it is about living by the only rule that matters, the TRUTH.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 4, 2013)

A note from my nephew Hardip Singh:

Congratulations to *Khalsa School Vancouver and Khalsa School Surrey* for ranking 16 and 33 respectively out of 853 elementary schools in the province by the Fraser Institute.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2013)

TigerStyleZ said:


> "So the solution seems obvious right, i just come out of the agnostic  closet, cut my hair, shave my beard and live my life as a free man doing  what i want......"
> 
> "marrying a non-sikh girl "
> 
> I guess this is the real problem here..



In my view, the hair, the beard, they need to be earned, they are not a right, you cannot just grow hair and procalaim yourself a Sikh anymore than you can don 5 stars and proclaim yourself a general. Anyone who has that much issue with the hair and beard has little understanding of Sikhism, and is an empty vessel. Why allow such people to look like Sikhs when their heart is a million miles away. Why allow such people to walk around and influence peoples view of Sikhs? If every soldier was allowed to have a multitude of stars, without the understanding, experience required, all it does is dilute the meaning of the stars until they mean nothing. In that case how do you know who is a general and who is not?


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 4, 2013)

TigerStyleZ said:


> "So the solution seems obvious right, i just come out of the agnostic  closet, cut my hair, shave my beard and live my life as a free man doing  what i want......"
> 
> "marrying a non-sikh girl "
> 
> I guess this is the real problem here..



Exactly. This person has already made his mind up and now is looking for the "justification door".


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## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Exactly. This person has already made his mind up and now is looking for the "justification door".



then let us open it and allow him to leave, if that is what he so wishes. 

Maybe he will come back, stronger, wiser, maybe he will not. 

Although it seems to me the traditions and rituals that he finds more offensive than the core philsophy


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 4, 2013)

harry haller said:


> In my view, the hair, the beard, they need to be earned, they are not a right, you cannot just grow hair and procalaim yourself a Sikh anymore than you can don 5 stars and proclaim yourself a general. Anyone who has that much issue with the hair and beard has little understanding of Sikhism, and is an empty vessel. Why allow such people to look like Sikhs when their heart is a million miles away. Why allow such people to walk around and influence peoples view of Sikhs? If every soldier was allowed to have a multitude of stars, without the understanding, experience required, all it does is dilute the meaning of the stars until they mean nothing. In that case how do you know who is a general and who is not?



Sikhi is practiced, not preached with the result the kids learn to grow up as outstanding while standing out. Earning is in the practicing with one's kids.

On the other side Khandei di pahul is earned. That is why it is not the first step as baptism/mundan/circumcision in other religions while still a child but the last one in the Sikhi journey.

Tejwant Singh


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## Astroboy (Mar 4, 2013)

The point I am making here is more psychological than religious. I am not playing a protagonist here. My explanation is about the feelings, emotions involved when one does the 'unexpected' and the time it takes to recover from such temporary ordeal. Sikhism does teaches that all relationships are 'fake' but that is not my intention to highlight about what Sikhism teaches us.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 4, 2013)

harry haller said:


> then let us open it and allow him to leave, if that is what he so wishes.
> 
> Maybe he will come back, stronger, wiser, maybe he will not.
> 
> Although it seems to me the traditions and rituals that he finds more offensive than the core philsophy



Well,  in other words, Sikhi has never been practiced at home. Hence, one does not have to leave anything that one has never had it to start with.

@ anon,

Could you please share your Sikhi background and the Sikhi practices at your home by your parents? I hope you are honest about them.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## anon (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey everyone, thank you for your well thought out responses. You guys have given me a lot to think about but I don't really feel like much of it is getting through to me, it all sounds a bit "waffley", or perhaps it is my own spiritual ignorance, however most of you guys are giving me advice, when this was more of a hypothetical excersize... one in which all of you adults could tell me about what you would do if your child decided he didn't believe in god.

While I do feel like this philosophical nature of conversation was not what I intended I am actually interested in what a lot of you have to say about the relationship between Sikhism and atheism. Since i was a child "Ik Onkar" seemed pretty clear cut. If we assume the typical children's tales to be true then a Sikh would have to believe that the Gurus are fundamentally different from me and you, and that they have a deeper insight into what God was than either me or you through intellectual or supernatural means, a deeper insight into a god in itself would imply that a god exists... I can't quote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because quite frankly i havent read it (Cue the... "How can you reject Sikhism if you havent red Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji" comments), but I have read the english translations of certain sections and to me it strikes me as VERY clear that to be a Sikh is to be a A theist.

ANYWAY that was my very VERY off topic bit. I have been quite busy recently and I am sorry I can't reply to everyone. Harry Haller, thank you for your story, however from what you wrote I think its clear that perhaps your situation was one path of many that a "Non-Believer" may take. You have made me realise that the scenario I put forward has a different meaning to everyone and that my family is different to yours and that I may never find a person who can sympathise with my dilemma because everyone is different and no two situations are the same. 

However i would like to address another post;



> You wrote :
> "allow them to express their thoughts and FOR GODS SAKE don't emotionally blackmail them..."
> 
> But what about you? Aren't you emotionally blackmailing them too if you leave Sikhi? If you don't listen to them , don't do what they want? The same applies to you...



Well I don't really understand how I am emotionally blackmailing them. To my understanding "emotional blackmail" is when a person runs risk of carrying out an act, which they wish to carry out, which could deteriorate a relationship of a loved one and therefore feels inclined not to carry out that act... correct me if my interpretation of "Emotional blackmail" is incorrect. 

In other words i run risk of carrying out an act (Cutting my hair, raising my potential future child a Sikh), which could lead to the deterioration of a relationship of a loved one (my mum or dad) and as a result I'm not committing those acts.

I don't see how in any way I am emotionally blackmailing them,  I can't see how they are wanting to do something (Which relates to the scenario of me "Outing" myself) which would deteriorate my relationship with them... Emotional blackmail is never usually a two way street.




> You are to close minded - if you are so philosophical , you should have to  listen  and analyse both vies and  aspects.



I totally agree with you on this. I am in the process of researching both sides. I am in the process of reading books on theology and i plan on reading Sikh history books (Any recommendations as to where to start and which ones use the most accurate sources?). It is definitely premature for me to "Out" myself now... I still have a lot of research to do, this forum thread itself is part of this research.



> Parents want  the best for their KIDS -even if you don't understand it - they love you and want that you don't make the mistake they made + they want you to go on the right path.



I'm sorry but i just cannot accept the "They don't want you to make mistakes they made" argument. I am different to my parents, if my parents made mistakes in their life then they made those mistakes 20-40 years ago in a different environment, in a different time, the choices I will be presented with in life are totally different, they may sound similar but environments change, people change, what's right and wrong in society changes. My parents mistakes are totally irrelevant. 

Also if we assume that I am to avoid the mistakes my parents have made... then *I *wont make them... if *I* don't make them then when I present these same principles (the ones based on the mistakes my parents made) to MY OWN kids then it wont be the case that the enforcement of these principles is because "your parents don't want you to make mistakes they made", it will be "your GRANDPARENTS don't want you to make the mistakes they made". I don't like the idea of GRANDPARENTS being the parents (ie my parents being the parents of my kids). Also whose to say that it was the Grandparents who made the mistakes..? Perhaps it was the GREAT grand parents... who made these mistakes... 





> And you are saying that you want to live your life and have a free will? Buddy you already have a FREE live a free willa free thiking, if you wouldnt have it, you wouldnt even have  known about agnostics/atheists and esspeically wouldnt have thought about such things.....



Free will and free thinking are different... and in all honesty your right, there are no physical forces at work stopping me from cutting my hair off, 

I think it is wrong for me to complain of not having free will, perhaps it is just the emotional blackmail that upsets me.



> You know what? A SIkh is an atheist , agnostic , theist



Read the above at the top... i'm confused by this.



> And at the end : If you  say your moral comes from great thikers and philsophes , you absoluetly know NOTHING about Gurus , the Gurus were GREAT THINKERS and PHILSOPHERS as well, as all BHAGATS . You seem to know nothing about them , every men with normal common sense would  say that  the Gurus were great thinkers...!



Yep the guru's were amazing, i think they were amazing men, but just that amazing men. I think their ideas of equality are great, but I do disagree with certain articles of faith imposed upon us by them. 

But if I were to derive my morals from bits and pieces of OTHER philosophers... I don't need the Gurus. Martin Luther King told me all men were equal, sure this was After Guru Nanak Dev Ji told me, but I think the message and the teaching should be examined independent of the person who says it.



Thank you for your reply however I just don't feel like you can say that using your above justification it would be right for me to follow my parents and do as they say. I'm not entirely convinced by Sikhism but I do appreciate everyone's replys. I will continue to engage with your responses but I do also need to do some other stuff... (My dog wont walk himself!).


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## Rory (Mar 4, 2013)

anon ji said:
			
		

> Yep the guru's were amazing, i think they were amazing men, but just that amazing men.


I think you are pulling at straws. Of course no-one can sympathize directly with your situation and think from your perspective, every time a person asks for advice about anything they are asking others to use their social (or otherwise) logic to pertain to the other person's situation as well as possible. If you expected something more maybe you shouldn't have bothered. 

It's seems you don't have more than two options, stay or go.
I personally think you would be better off leaving Sikhi. If it is worth it then you will come back to Sikhi, if not then maybe you are right and the rest of us on here are wasting our time and interest. 

Your parents will be angry/disappointed and that will make you sad - what is the alternative? Lie to them until they die and then unwrap your turban, making fools of them and possibly when it is too late for you to experience life as a "young Western agnostic"?
Make your mind up one way or another before it is too late. You can always come back to Sikhi and if you do decide to do that, won't it be for a reason which will inspire you to be 10x the Sikh (and that means being 10x the benefit to the world) as you are now?


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## Harry Haller (Mar 4, 2013)

my dear friend, Sikhs are the ultimate atheists , we live our life and do what we do for no reward other than it is the right and true thing to do. It is not about pleasing a diety, it is about being true, once you get past the fact that God is everywhere, in everything, and not confined to heaven, to those of the Abrahamic leanings, we may as well be atheists


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## Luckysingh (Mar 5, 2013)

Anon ji
I agree with what Roryji and other posters say.
I believe that you have already made your mind and are just looking for justification to convince yourself !!

You seem to be pre-selective in what you really want to hear !
Your parents may have doubted the religion when they were younger, but you think this has no relevance since it was a different time scale and era.

If you feel this way, then you should go for the latest ''in fashion'' religion at this period in time,- since Hollywood celebs have a habit of making religions fashionable in cyclic periods from Hinduism and wearing red threads, jewish kaballah, jediism, kopimism, ...the famous 3HO, Buddhism, Scientology........etc.....etc..........
I think you make a suitable candidate for the latest 'hip' religion whatever that will be......


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## Harry Haller (Mar 5, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> Anon ji
> I agree with what Roryji and other posters say.
> I believe that you have already made your mind and are just looking for justification to convince yourself !!
> 
> ...



Luckyji

I disagree with you here, our young friend sounds like he knows his own mind, I do not think he really gives a monkey about our justification. 

I stand by the thought that he has had enough of the faux Sikhism being preached and is looking for the truth, it is only when you have found this, that you know exactly why the 5 K's are so important. For one who has been brought up in his environment, I can empathise with him hugely. 

We have all been through the stage he is at, the questions, the strength to finally scream out ' none of this makes any sense', he is asking why the emperor has no clothes, we should be helping him find the answer


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## Harry Haller (Mar 5, 2013)

> Hey everyone, thank you for your well thought out responses. You guys  have given me a lot to think about but I don't really feel like much of  it is getting through to me, it all sounds a bit "waffley", or perhaps  it is my own spiritual ignorance, however most of you guys are giving me  advice, when this was more of a hypothetical excersize... one in which  all of you adults could tell me about what you would do if your child  decided he didn't believe in god.



Its very simple, you need to find out about Sikhism, not the 5 K's, not the Gurus, not the Gurus personalities, not the sakhis, but the absolute core philosophy, which is to be at one with yourself and the world. I have no children, but if my child said he did not believe in God, I would not have a problem with that. I have a stepson, who does not believe in God, but he does believe in doing good, having a good heart, helping others, and being true to himself, and quite frankly, that is enough for me, he does not realise that it is his connection with God that assists him in these attributes, I do, and I am fine with that, I would much rather that, than a stepson who declared an undying belief in God but behaved badly towards those around him. 



> While I do feel like this philosophical nature of conversation was not  what I intended I am actually interested in what a lot of you have to  say about the relationship between Sikhism and atheism. Since i was a  child "Ik Onkar" seemed pretty clear cut. If we assume the typical  children's tales to be true then a Sikh would have to believe that the  Gurus are fundamentally different from me and you, and that they have a  deeper insight into what God was than either me or you through  intellectual or supernatural means, a deeper insight into a god in  itself would imply that a god exists... I can't quote Sri Guru Granth  Sahib Ji because quite frankly i havent read it (Cue the... "How can you  reject Sikhism if you havent red Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji" comments),  but I have read the english translations of certain sections and to me  it strikes me as VERY clear that to be a Sikh is to be a A theist.



The Gurus were just like me and you, they had no special powers, no special supernatural means, they just had a supreme connection with God, with Creator. as for 'Ik Onkar', no it is not pretty clear cut, there are many variations to the meaning, the one which I hold dear is 'the eternal truth'. Others would translate it differently, the common one being 'there is only one God', as for the stories, rubbish most of them, dressed up so our Gurus appeared as magical and interesting as the Vedic heroes of the day. The sad thing is that they did not need magic powers, it was not about stopping stones or bringing people back to life or curing the sick by laying hands, it was about connection, perception, wisdom, knowledge, understanding. 



> In other words i run risk of carrying out an act (Cutting my hair



I put it to you that actually, this is no more than a desire to cut your hair so you may integrate with your peers, date girls, have sex, etc etc. I do not think this has anything to do with religion, you think religion is basically stopping you from having fun, and you want out, that is how I read you. 



> I totally agree with you on this. I am in the process of researching  both sides. I am in the process of reading books on theology and i plan  on reading Sikh history books (Any recommendations as to where to start  and which ones use the most accurate sources?). It is definitely  premature for me to "Out" myself now... I still have a lot of research  to do, this forum thread itself is part of this research.



Excellent, read, and keep reading, browse the web, get an overview, get lots of different opinions, and then form your own, remember the litmus test, if it doesnt sound very Sikhi, it probably is not. For it to sound Sikhi, it needs to ring true. 



> I'm sorry but i just cannot accept the "They don't want you to make  mistakes they made" argument. I am different to my parents, if my  parents made mistakes in their life then they made those mistakes 20-40  years ago in a different environment, in a different time, the choices I  will be presented with in life are totally different, they may sound  similar but environments change, people change, what's right and wrong  in society changes. My parents mistakes are totally irrelevant.



Our parents never made mistakes, they did not have that luxury to learn from mistakes, everything was mapped out, they know what they had to do, and they did it. But what you are talking about is the universal eternal constant truth, see your a Sikh! :winkingmunda:



> Free will and free thinking are different... and in all honesty your  right, there are no physical forces at work stopping me from cutting my  hair off,



Hmm there it is again, the hair, what you really wish to do, I feel, is get a haircut, and that is what you are trying to justify. 



> Yep the guru's were amazing, i think they were amazing men, but just  that amazing men. I think their ideas of equality are great, but I do  disagree with certain articles of faith imposed upon us by them.



and once again, the hair, we keep coming back to this



> Thank you for your reply however I just  don't feel like you can say that using your above justification it would  be right for me to follow my parents and do as they say. I'm not  entirely convinced by Sikhism but I do appreciate everyone's replys. I  will continue to engage with your responses but I do also need to do  some other stuff... (My dog wont walk himself!).



Excellent, you are a dog owner, look into your dogs eyes, your dog knows nothing about philosophy, about hair, about God, but look into its eyes, deeply, you will then know and see God.


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## Luckysingh (Mar 5, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> I disagree with you here, our young friend sounds like he knows his own mind, I do not think he really gives a monkey about our justification.
> 
> ...



Yep, I see what you mean !!
I think I was just being a little cheeky in my post! (this cheeky attitude usually gets my kids to start thinking and find the right answer themselves!)


I know, I too was a diest/theist(believed in God but not religion) for over 10 years.
Problem was that I was raised in white christian school environments because that was the face of traditional brit education back then. It wasn't choice of parents or anything.
I'm sure most of my lot learned about jews and old testament from watching 'the Ten commandments' with Charlton Heston and then the new testament gospels from school bibles that we each had to carry with us.
On top of singing hymns, choir and memorising bible quotes, I would go to my ''indian God house'' as I called on a Sunday, with my parents.
This would involve about 15 minutes in the darbar and then 3 hours playing with other kids whilst parents sat in darbar.
Anyway, you get older as a kid (11 plus) and are then advised to stop messing around with other kids but to sit quietly in the darbar whilst paath or kirtan is going on.
(read on teens!.....)


What does a young teenager do ???
Sit there quietly and observe what is going on - most of the time.......
This will be watching for people you know, checking out the girls,seeing who sits the shortest and longest time, seeing who has the trendy clothes...etc...
THEN, at the end of 3hours or so, it's time to go to the langar hall and enjoy your feast of langar.
_Sadly, I never understood the concept of langar until many years later._

After some years of this going on, you realise that there is so much ''fakeness' attached to Gurdwara and Sunday sangat.
You begin to realise that at our ''indian God house'' all the adults are just pretending to be good.
They chat freely and openly to whoever they meet whilst slandering others and then they just carry on as normal.

In UK, one only had to go to the nearest pub after midday to see the same men from the sangat who were an hour or two ago having langar, now in the pub with pints and playing cards enjoying the social liquor drinks.

When you get to your teenage years and see this picture all around you, then you begin to question
- ''what am I and what should I be??''

Needless to say,_ this prompted me to give up pretending to belong to a religion.
_There were many of us little kids that used to meet every sunday that never saw each other again, because we realised how fake it all was.

Infact when I look back now, I realise that I was only going to Gurdwara whilst at school. This was to counteract the white man's bible all week long at school, as I felt I didn't belong there AND then to go to my Indian Gurdwara to which I thought I belonged to.

When the school bible studies/choir/hymns..stopped, so did my attendance to Gurdwara.

Infact, My belief in One God probably grew stronger, but my faith in any religion completely vanished.
I didn't feel inclined to pretend to matha tek, sit in darbar and pretend to listen if my eyes and mind were lurking elsewhere.
But this is what EVERYONE else was doing, and I was old enough to confirm it !!
I could feel that God was within me and that it was pointless and fake to be showing outward displays if my heart and mind were not in it.

This diversion on my behalf was nothing to do with sikhism.
It was all to do with the social impact that comes attached with the religion label. 
It was all far away from the ''Truth''.


When you realise what the Gurus did and were, then you realise how close they were to the 'Truth'
This is when I started to step back in and learn about the same religion at my own pace.
Nowadays, it doesn't bother me what other people do or whether they are fake and pretending.
I do my own thing as the Guru is within as well as around, so I know that I can't be kidding anyone except myself !

When you have doubts, it can help to completely step out and then re-approach slowly at your own pace.
This way you can learn the real importance and core of sikhism in slower and more determining steps.


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## TigerStyleZ (Mar 6, 2013)

Brother I think you get me wrong...  You can do wahtever you want it is your life! But you can´t justify your doings  like you want to justify... ! Do whatever you want , leave Sikhi if you feel  it is better - but be a MAN and stand for your deeds! Doesnt matter what you decide in the end it is YOU you and you... maybe some people will look down at you( even if it isn´t their right) - but you have to live with that - you have to accept that you will hurt your parents and others..

But I am quite sure that you just want to cut kesh  - for the reason of having a "non " Sikh girlffriend etc...

We are just here to tell  you our views... and you dont have to accept them , it is up to you whether you make or not.. no one is forcing you.  I am not justifying anything i am just giving advise ...  and why should I want someone to remain an insecure (Sikh)?  Sikhi is an manjl it is an achievement...  You have to earn it ...   

I myself read many writing from other philsophery , like sokrates, demokrit etc... and I similiar read Gurbani - and until now , Gurbani had more precise descritiptions of what truth is ... No one is saying that you cant try to combine both Gurbani and other philosophers work... ! Because in the end it will go to the same goal( If you understand what I mean)

Many of the posters just shared their storys .. and I am thankful to them speniding their time to tell us their storys... Maybe they dont have an impact on you and change your way of thinking so you can understand what other use to mean...

I myself was so lost.. and confused my whole days as children.. I had similiar experience like LuckySingh.. and more worse experiences..  I am the type of sort that when others with 9 years -11 years still played with Legos and stuff started using my brain ..  and this is very unusual for children.. 

You take everything to literally...  I said that your parents want the best for you.. and protect you from such things... with thei experience and it isnt(environment) that different like you think... life is always about the same things...  You are just to judgemental , how can you reject something you dont even know / learned in depth? You said you read english translations,  translations are TRANSLATIONS.... Like many philosophers spoke no enlgish, their wrtings where translated...! And if you translate you will NEVER  get to know the 100% of the meaning , thats why your parents teach you punjabi! Is it that bad?  In the end you will only gain something out of it!

 Now to the "free will " part... : The thing you are describing will NEVER happen , because you are bound i.e. you are bound to society , a country , a state , a community ( even if you leave Sikh community you will join another)...!  So  in the end you are bound to everything , but you have the free will to decide !  You are free! Your parents won´t kill you for changing religion or anything (You wouldn´t have post if you haven´t any free will)- but they will be very upset and sad - and they will question themselfs what they made wrong etc... ( Can YOU LIVE with THAT?) 


I think you just want to cut your hair to have it easier to satisfy your lower needs... Buddy trust me... it is not worth it! I can talk all day - about it but maybe i will have an little impact on you...

Dont fall for Kaam... I know the urge of having sex , cutting hair etc...  we are almost the same age...  I know I dont have to generalize but it is always about such things...  

I wish you all the best dear brother , which way you go doesnt matter you will always be welcome here :singhsippingcoffee:


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