# Mathematics In Scripture?



## mattqatsi (May 16, 2010)

This might be a little hard to explain without giving an example, and I won't give one because it may seems like I'm trying to peddle my own Holy Text. I have given up googling, I can't seem to figure out any adequate search terms. I was wondering about any of the Holy Sikh Scriptures, I'm trying to work out a report (as well as work out my own beliefs) on mathematics hidden within religious texts. I'm not just talking about cool numbers here and there in the text and their meanings, but Holy Seals behind the words.

*I'm legitimately trying to get an answer, I'm sorry that the long explanation makes it look otherwise, please forgive me.
* 
Wow, this is hard to explain. I've found some mathematical impossibilities in a Passage from my faith and so I'm trying to figure out where else these appear. I'll just give an example without a name, sorry, this is frustrating to explain. This specific passage of 12 verses (ironically enough with a history of early/late manuscript legitimacy controversy) has

1. 175 words (which comes out even when divided by 7, there are 25 sevens of words.)
2. 98 Individual vocabulary words (14 sevens)
3. 133 Individual forms of the words (19 sevens)

--The language is alpha-numeric, which means each letter has a number attached to it. It's like A=1 B=2 C=3 etc. Each letter (and therefore each word) has a numeric value attached to it.--

4. The numeric value of the whole passage is 103,663 (14,809 sevens)
5. Numeric value of the 133 forms -> 89,663 (12,809 sevens)
6. Out of the 133 forms, only 112 (16 sevens) occur once
7. The 98 vocab words have 553 letters (79 sevens)
8. 294 (42 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
9. 259 (37 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
10. Out of the 98 vocab words, 84 (12 sevens) are found in the rest of that book
11. 14 (2 sevens) are only found in this specific passage
12. Out of the 98 individual vocab words, 42 (6 sevens) are used by the key Leader of the faith during His Speech
13. 56 (8 sevens) are not part of His vocabulary in this passage
14. 56 words (8 sevens) are used in His Speech
15. The rest of the passage has 119 words (17 sevens) 
<style type="text/css">     <!--         @page { margin: 0.79in }         P { margin-bottom: 0.08in }     -->     </style>
The 175 words in the passage (25 sevens) split into three natural divisions
 [1.] V. 9-11 → 35 words (5 sevens)
 [2.] V. 12-18 → 105 words (15 sevens)
 [3.] V. 19-20 → 35 words (5 sevens)

 [2.]  
 → [V. 12] → 14 words (2 sevens)
 → [V. 13-15] (up to speech) → 35 words (5 sevens)
 → [V. 15-18] (just the speech) → 56 words (8 sevens)

*Numeric Values*
 103,663 (14,809 sevens)

 [V. 9-11] → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
 [V. 12-20] → 86,450 (12,350 sevens)

 [9 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)
 [10 → 5418] (774 sevens)
 [11 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)

 [V.10]
 First word (ekeinos) → 98 (14 sevens)
 Last word (klaio) → 791 (113 sevens)
 Remaining → 4529 (647 sevens)

133 Forms (19 sevens)
 When laid out alphabetically
 First word is 224 (32 sevens)
 Last word is 1134 (162 sevens)

175 total words/numeric values split into 4 categories:
  Units (1 figure. i.e. '5')
 Tens (2 figures. i.e. '17')
 Hundreds (3 figures. i.e. '234')
 Thousands (4 figures. i.e. '1897')

 Two extremes (units/thousands) → 42 words (6 sevens)
 Two inside ones (tens/hundreds) → 133 words (19 sevens)

*Letters*
V. 9-12 → 35 words (5 sevens)
 14 (2 sevens) begin with a vowel
 21 (3 sevens) begin with consonant
 21 (3 sevens) end with vowel
 14 (2 sevens) end with consonant
 7 begin and end with a vowel
 84 (12 sevens) syllables

 Numeric Value of V. 9-12 → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
 When laid out, grab every 7th value of these 35 words: [1,400] [386] [1,171] [1,247] [857]
 Adds to 5,061 (723 sevens)
 Only one is divisible by 7 (1,400 → 200 sevens)

 With the whole passage (175 words → 25 sevens) laid out, the values of every 25<sup>th</sup> word are [791] [21] [591] [1533] [21] [651] [1113]
 All but one are divisible by 7 (591)

*DONE*
This is not even half of the values that I have found, there are more for this one passage as well as similar results with many other passages in this Holy Book (The specific Book, not the full Holy Text)

So my question is, has there ever been any research done on the mathematical inner workings of the different Sikh Scriptures? Either research like this or other mathematical analysis's (or however you spell the plural of analysis)?


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## spnadmin (May 16, 2010)

mattqatsi ji

I cannot help you. Only can provide one tip. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is written as a collection of musical compositions;; i.e,  raags. For that reason alone it will and does have a mathematical structure, but not quite like what you are describing. 

Maybe...because I confess I don't know exactly what you are talking about, try googling "musical structure of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## mattqatsi (May 16, 2010)

Well since my beliefs are already out in the introduction thread, I'll say that this excerpt is from the Gospel of Mark. These last twelve verses, verses 9-20, are disputed in some Biblical circles. Some older manuscripts do not contain these last twelve, so the Divine Inspiration of them was called into question. What's funny and honestly pretty cool is that every time someone tries to attack the Bible with some "error" or some "contradiction," these apparent contradictions reveal a much much deeper hidden Truth. Seeking out the resolution of a contradiction sometimes, like this time, can prove that not only are two passages in agreement, it would be impossible for them to be written like that without Divine Guidance. (Quick example: People say that the Bible says the value of pi is exactly 3, which on the outside, surface interpretation, it does. But when you dig deeper, you'll find that we're given a number that works out to a value that is accurate to the 12th decimal. Pi wasn't even known to that degree until centuries later.)

I get a little excited about this stuff, and I thought you guys might find that cool since you're one of the few other faiths that believes in a Living Word. I really like that shared belief, that we're not satisfied with a God we can read about, I can't tame this Deity.

Anyways, I looked up the musical structure on google and I didn't really get what I was looking for. Do you know of any professional who you could refer me to? 

As to what I was talking about, these verses, as well as a few others, have a heptadic structure in the original written Greek. It's a sevenfold structure, everything is wrapped in sevens, everything is divisible by sevens: the amount of words, the types of words, the number of letters, the numerical values of the letters, the numerical values of the words, the numerical values of sections. Nearly everything is divisible by seven. To me, this shows divine inspiration.
I mean, this is something that was written 2,000 years ago and the chance of the 34 different heptadic (sevenfold) features of this passage working out is calculated to be:
7^34 = 54,116,956,037,952,111,668,959,660,849
One million supercomputers, composing 400 million drafts per second, would require over 4 million years to complete that number.
And that's only with 34 features, I'm going through a book right now (and learning Greek along the way) that claims to have found 75 different heptadic features in just these 12 verses. 

I should have chosen a less complex example, but this one still works. I was wondering if there was anything similar in the Sikh Scriptures since they're supposed to be another "living Scripture." (I'm not saying it isn't if there isn't, I'm just wondering if there's the same... mathematical wheels underneath the words.)


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## spnadmin (May 16, 2010)

Start with this link

Gurbani Raags : SearchGurbani.com

One of our moderators, NamJap ji,is a musician. He may be able to lead you to the sources you need.

Another forum member Manbir Singh is versed in these issues and his wife is founder of the Gurmat Gian Group. You can send him a private message. I am sure he can help you.


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## mattqatsi (May 16, 2010)

Thank you so much, I'll report back later with what I find.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 16, 2010)

mattqatsi ji,

Guru Fateh and welcome to the forum.

On the offset, I would like clarify that I am no one but a Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker, an inquisitive person. Sikhi urges us through SGGS, our only Guru- Teacher, to make knowledge our best friend.

So, I have some questions for my own understanding.

1. What does "Living Word" mean?
2. If there is  "Living Word" then there has to be a "Dead Word" or not?
3. Is your mathematical genius, which it is and one can notice that from your posts, able to differentiate between the two? If yes then how and if not then why not?
4. When was the Gospel of Mark written?
5. Why didn't Jesus say or write anything himself?
6. Does your mathematical equation give us any reason/answer about number5?
7. How can these mathematical equations that you claim are in the Bible give us the tools to breed goodness within so it can be shared with others?

More to come after your responses.

I am sure our interaction will be very educational for both of us and other readers.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## mattqatsi (May 16, 2010)

*I want to apologize before I post this. Have you ever been sleep deprived and something interesting comes your way and you end up talking and talking and talking about it? I did not mean to go on like this but it's a hard topic and my brain used a lot of words to describe some beliefs and history of the Bible even though I didn't come here to spread propaganda. But maybe you can see why I'm so excited about it all.*


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

One way to avoid the kinds of problems encountered so far is to return to the issue of Mathematics in Scripture, which is a topic that some people find extremely interesting.

I have moved parts of this discussion to Interfaith Dialogs under the title, What is the Living Word? Thank you.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christianity/30458-what-living-word-comparisons-sikh-scripture.html


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

Originally qouted by mattqatsi : {So my question is, has there ever been any research done on the mathematical inner workings of the different Sikh Scriptures? Either research like this or other mathematical analysis's (or however you spell the plural of analysis)?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> }
After reading the First post by mattqatsi one gets only little but anyhow from the above words from mattqatsi's qoute the question he is asking is clear.And the answer to the best of my knowledge is "NO". And its simply because Gurbani teaches us not to believe in astrology and numerology ( you otherwise put as mathematical inner working). We in sikhism are just bothered about the message carried in the verses of gurbani. 
First of all the verses you are discussing are unknown. you have not mentioned which scripture or which faith these verses belong to. Depending upon the faith or the mindset of the writer these verses might have been written keeping in mind the mathematical values. In that case nothing to wonder.
In case You are refereing to any verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then Naraynjot ji has tried to convey the correct answer. I will put some more light from the same prospective.
Gurbani is not a collection of musical compositions but its a collection of poetic verses of divine message. Whole gurbani ans most of religious scriptures are in poetic format. The poetic form of the verses are written in different poetic styles ( in punhabi we say Chhands or the study of Pingal ) In study of pingal while writing any poetry the count of all the words are being counted for, and the count ( weightage) of each alphabet vary depending upon the type of alphabet ( single or combined alphabets). In all types of poetry exept "Azad kavita ( khulli kavita ) one can find the mathematical inner working relationship of the alphabets.
If there are any mathematical inner working found in any verse or verses (Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI), it might be due to the poetic structure of all gurbani and let me be proud of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because while writing most of the gurbani, utmost care has been taken from the poetic standards point of view.
I hope this may help you a little bit.
RoopSidhu


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

mattqatsi ji

Permit me to elaborate on my earlier response to you. Gurbani consists of 31 raags. These are as roopsidhu ji says poetry. The poetry is meant to be sung -- in the musical format of raags.

Music has a mathematical structure. If you check the link I posted you will see 31 links that lead to descriptions of the musical structure of each raag. For example, raag Ramkali.

Here is the link for that, Gurbani Raag: Ramkali : SearchGurbani.com

If the structure were not organized according to mathematical patterns the result would be random noise. So the musical structure aids and supports understanding the poetry. 

But to continue with roopsidhu's point -- there are no hidden divine messages in the structure of the raag Ramkali. The musical structure of the raags stretches back into time, into the history of Indian music. Whether Sikh or not a ramkali is instantly recognized by its structure. 

The message contained in Gurbani comes from the words of the Gurus, not the structure.


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

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SSA,</SPAN></P>Nobody can deny the mathematical structure of the music. But the point raised by mattqatsi was different. He was asking the mathematical relations of the words of the verses. To count the mathematical relation of any verse one must count the total alphabets and reach to the desired conclusions. The mathematical calculations in question are of the words not of Taals of ragas. A word of four alphabets can be sung in four matras and also in 16 matras in the same raga hence musical calculations are irrelevant and not in question here. The calculations in question are for alphabets which directly relate to the poetic structure of the verses. Most of gurbani has been divided into the various different forms of poetry. For example some forms are given below:
Sawaiyas
Saloks
Ashtapadis
Chaupadey
Barah maha
Bawan akhari
And many more

Yes, no one can deny the classification of gurbani as per 31 ragas. But please note that ragas has nothing to do with the way of writing, ragas are the way of singing.
Our gurbani is perfect in poetic structure. If we have to find answer to mattqatsi's question it can be found from poetic structure only.
I have tried to explain about the importance of ragas in gurbani in my one essay at www.likhari.org named "Gurbani kirtan wich raagan da mahatav".
For structure of gurbani ragas  there were 12 ragas uploaded on www.5abi.com it was having audio as well as raag details. Those raag details were provided by me.
For more details those links can be viewed.
Finally  I would like to repeat that we, in Sikhism are never taught by gurbani to run after the mathematic calculations of the verses. We have been asked by our gurus to read, understand and to act upon the teachings of gurbani.
Bhul chuk maaf
Roopsidhu
<o> </o>
</o>


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

Thank you for your clarification roopsidhu ji.

mattqatsi ji can also find some information about Taals at the link provided earlier, specifically 

Gurbani Raag:Taal : SearchGurbani.com

Amrit Keertan Gutka:- Page : -:SearchGurbani.com

roopsidhu ji

I am curious about your reaction to these paragraphs that try to connect the "resonance" of elements of musical structure to the achievement of a heightened state of inner consciousness. Thank you

Resonance
  Sacred music has two aspects; the outer and the  inner. The outer side is the arrangement of words and notes, the welding  of the substance and the tune which is a delight for the ear and the  intellect. The inner side of this music is its mysterious process by  which it opens the vista of inner consciousness and stabilises and  wandering mind and brings joy and peace. Technically the result can be  explained through the principle of resonance. It has been proved that in  case of two instruments tuned identically, if the strings of one  instrument are touched, the strings of the other instrument will  automatically vibrate without any physical manipulation. Thus the mind  will absorb the vibration of calmness through *kirtan. *One  musicologist explains the process thus: “If two instruments, such as two  *sitars, *are exactly in tune with each other and if one them is  played upon, then it is observed that without touching each other, the  wires of both the instruments vibrate in resonance automatically.  Likewise, the mind is also constantly vibrating due to energy (*shakti)  *manifested by the omnipotent in the soul *(jiv-atma)-its  cidabhasa.*
 While music is being played or sung-going through the  different notes of the various octaves-and one of notes comes into  harmony and in identification with the vibrations of the mind of a  person, the resonance becomes so strong that it holds the mind steadfast  begins to flow gradually and flow gradually and follow the melody  itself which is in tune with the external divine music, in perfect  resonance and harmony with the raga and rhythm or melody (*dhun) *being  heard externally. In this way internally the mind is gradually led,  trained and channelised to attain calmness and repose. The result is  that external joy begins to manifest itself slowly and steadily by  itself. The more is the mind in tune, the greater is the mystic effect  of the rhythm *(ghar), *modal music (*raga)-*reinforced with  the Divine Word, the revelation (*shabad) *of the scripture”[40].  This joy creates in the mind a longing for a frequent repetition of the  experience.​


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

SSA,
Narayanjot ji,
There is no contradiction with your delails about the resonance. But still my point is that we have gone far away from the question raised by mattqatsi. We were supposed to answer his question. 
bhul chuk maaf


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## Astroboy (May 17, 2010)

> One of our moderators, NamJap ji,is a musician. He may be able to lead  you to the sources you need.


Well Narayanjot Kaur Ji, let's delve into Raag Mala and see what numbers can be arrived at. It may be interesting how Mattqatsi Ji wants to arrange them but raag mala is pretty straight-forward and one need not come up with a metaphysical or mathematical formula. Although in music there are the 7 keys and the 12 keys which form the basis of all vibrations, we will let Mattqatsi Ji come up with his own version of a 'new' formula if he wishes to do so.

Mattqatsi Ji,

You may click on the last line as shown below to view full verses.

Page  1429, Line 19
ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥
राग एक संगि पंच बरंगन ॥
Rāg ek sang pancẖ barangan.
*Each Raga has five wives*,
*-*   -  [SIZE=-1]view  Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

SSA
good idea namjap ji, lets find out the formula mattqatsi is writing about and will see how it works.


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

namjap said:


> Well Narayanjot Kaur Ji, let's delve into Raag Mala and see what numbers can be arrived at. It may be interesting how Mattqatsi Ji wants to arrange them but raag mala is pretty straight-forward and one need not come up with a metaphysical or mathematical formula. Although in music there are the 7 keys and the 12 keys which form the basis of all vibrations, we will let Mattqatsi Ji come up with his own version of a 'new' formula if he wishes to do so.
> 
> Mattqatsi Ji,
> 
> ...




  I am glad you have taken on the seva. This may be irrelevant. But is it not true that Raagmala has omitted some of the raags? Just wondering. It may not matter.


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

roopsidhu said:


> SSA,
> Narayanjot ji,
> There is no contradiction with your delails about the resonance. But still my point is that we have gone far away from the question raised by mattqatsi. We were supposed to answer his question.
> bhul chuk maaf




roopsidhu ji

I myself think we are still on the same track. As I understand his remarks, mattqatsi ji is asking about spiritual connections found within and through mathematical connections.

 NamJap seems to be on the trail of the mystery."7 keys and 12 keys are the basis of all vibrations." 

A matter at hand - are these only physical vibrations, or do they have spiritual/metaphysical significance? The connection is controversial for some and lies at the root of _naad yoga_ which finds spirituality in sound. 

All I was asking was for your opinion of those two paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make of them. Your opinion is still welcome. Thanks.


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

SSA
Narayanjot ji quoted
This may be irrelevant. But is it not true that Raagmala has omitted some of the raags? Just wondering. It may not matter.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> 
Yes its irrelevant but true that Raagmala has no reference about many ragas used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Raagmala has mention of 84 ragas. Gurbani has 31 ragas but still about 11 ragas of gurbani has no reference in raagmala directly.
roopsidhu


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

Narayanjot ji quoted
All I was asking was for your opinion of those two paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make of them. Your opinion is still welcome. Thanks.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> 
which two paragraphs please ?<!-- / message -->


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## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

SSA 
The original quote by mattqatsi
I'm trying to work out a report (as well as work out my own beliefs) on mathematics hidden within religious texts.<?"urn:fficeffice" />
175 words (which comes out even when divided by 7, there are 25 sevens of words.)
2. 98 Individual vocabulary words (14 sevens)
3. 133 Individual forms of the words (19 sevens)
--The language is alpha-numeric, which means each letter has a number attached to it. It's like A=1 B=2 C=3 etc. Each letter (and therefore each word) has a numeric value attached to it.—
The numeric value of the whole passage is 103,663 (14,809 sevens)
Mattqatsi is interested in the mathematics hidden in the religious text. His calculations are based on alpha-numeric values of letters such as A=1 B=2 etc. Its very clear that then he adds up the alpha-numeric values of all letters to reach to the numeric value of the whole passage.
What I understood from it is that he wanted to know wheather any sikh scriptures has been studied this way and foud having mathematical relations or not.
May be mattqatsi can refine his question to clear my doubts about his question.
Sorry for any.......
roopsidhu


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## Arvind (May 17, 2010)

mattqatsi said:


> 7^34 = 54,116,956,037,952,111,668,959,660,849
> One million supercomputers, composing 400 million drafts per second, would require over 4 million years to complete that number.


 Just off-topic: Not sure, on what basis this super slow computing speed is derived from? Will you pls be kind enough to provide a citation to it, I couldnt get one!

Regards.


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

roopsidhu said:


> SSA
> Narayanjot ji quoted
> This may be irrelevant. But is it not true that Raagmala has omitted some of the raags? Just wondering. It may not matter.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
> Yes its irrelevant but true that Raagmala has no reference about many ragas used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Raagmala has mention of 84 ragas. Gurbani has 31 ragas but still about 11 ragas of gurbani has no reference in raagmala directly.
> roopsidhu



And of course there is the fact that Raagmala comes after the seal of Guru Gobind Singh, with many contending that it is not genuinely a part of Guru Granth Sahibji.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sanatan-sikhism/26891-competing-perspectives-on-raagmala.html


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

> Originally posted by *roopsidhu*
> All I was asking was for your opinion of those two  paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make  of them. Your opinion is still welcome. Thanks.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
> which two paragraphs please ?




roopsidhu ji

The 2 paragraphs are in red font. 



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Thank you for your clarification roopsidhu ji.
> 
> mattqatsi ji can also find some information about Taals at the link provided earlier, specifically
> 
> ...


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## seeker3k (May 17, 2010)

Dear Mattquatsi,
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
We don’t have nay mathematic in SGGS. It gives us the way to live life. In bani we learn how to respect others and how we can serve others.
What you wrote is WOW. Any one can do what you have done. What does it teach us?
Every thing can be explained in mathematic. All other science is from math.
<o> </o>
If you want to look up math or other science then you should look in Hindu holy books. They are full of science if you can under stand science.
If you want do discuss Christianity I will be glad to discuss it with you. But this is not the place to discuss it. Send me message with your email.
<o> </o>
Seeker3k


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## Tejwant Singh (May 17, 2010)

Seeker3K ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> If you want do discuss  Christianity I will be glad to discuss it with you. But this is not the  place to discuss it. Send me message with your email.


Pardon my ignorance, but I am a bit confused by your assertion. 

Why is this forum not the place to discuss Christianity or any other religion?

Can you elaborate and shed some light behind your assertion and reasoning?

The fact is that we do have interfaith section in this forum and Christianity is already being discussed in the following thread with Mattquatsi ji.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/chris...rd-comparisons-sikh-scripture.html#post126797

I would urge you to participate in it and educate us with your contribution and input.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 18, 2010)

Special thanks to respected forum member Tejwant Singh for his comments above. SPN not only permits but encourages inter-faith dialogs and does have a forum section which is rich with articles going back to the very beginnings of SPN. 

Interfaith Dialogues
There are also sections in Interfaith Dialogs for  discussion of 12 different religions.

In fact one of the motivations for the birth of this forum was to provide a place for interfaith discussion and comparative essays. There are also times when it makes sense to have some religious comparison in threads that are not in Interfaith Dialogs. This thread is a good example because it  considers mathematical structure in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and the inspiration for the initial questions came from scriptures of Christianity. As long as the Sikh faith is not undermined, as long  as Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not undermined, and as long as proselytizing  is not going on, there is no problem.


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## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

SSA,<?"urn:fficeffice" />
Originally quoted by Narayanjot Kaur ji
All I was asking was for your opinion of those two paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make of them. Your opinion is still welcome.
Yes I totally agree with these both paragraphs. The two way effect of music cannot be denied. You have put it very nicely in these two paragraphs. Yes the whole idea revolves around the “resonance” and specially  “acoustic resonance”. That is the tendency of a sound system to absorb more energy when it is forced or driven at a frequency that matches its own natural frequency of vibration. As you have explained same thing happens to the human (living creature) minds also. During listening to the music when acoustic resonance takes place, when the frequency of vibration of any particular musical note or set of notes  matches the frequency of the vibrations produces by mind ,then a great resonance occurs, that is the state of mind when the notes or the word flow directly to the inner mind. That is the state of mind which is termed as “ Beta stage of mind” by mind control experts, that is the state of Manan (a Sanskrit word) came in SGGS ji as “ Manney” ( maney surat hovey man budh) or let’s say that’s the stage of mind which is “Ikagarta”. So the acoustic resonance is very important part of music especially sacred music.
Now let’s see what gurus have given us as gurbani. (I had tried to explain same in my essay at www.likhari.org). Gurbani divided into 31 ragas and also the statement “ kalyug meh kirtan pardhana”. This statement of guruji may have the logic of resonance behind it. Please note that Bani cannot be written in raags. Bani can be sung in raags. Bani is not written in ragas, bani in written in different poetic styles. But has been classified into 31 raaga based on the “Ras bhav” (prakriti) because same as a writing has a particular RAS ( prakriti) the ragas also have the specific prakritis. So based on the “ras bhav” ( prakriti) of the bani it might has been divided into 31 raagas. The set of notes of different ragas will produce the different frequency of vibrations depending upon the ras bhav of the bani, and when resonance will be in effect that bani will travel to the deeper most layers of mind and will have permanent effect on the mind. Then only the surat will meet the prime source (God)
Singing contains two parts, lai and taal ( tune and rythem). Supposing  the Lai (the tune being the most important part for creating resonance) when guru ji divided the bani in ragas the most important part of Tune was taken care of. But still, as the remaining part Taal (rhythm) was remaining. I believe to complete the process in full  parts of gurbani were specified by Ghar (rhythm) also. It seems that when the music is created in particular raag and is being sung in particular ghar (rythem) it might be creating the best possible resonance with the minds of the listeners. WOW the fine scientific occurrences like acoustic resonance has been taking care of while compiling gurbani. When I think about this my head bows further towards the feet of satguru.
But are we singing the gurbani as detailed (raag wise + ghar wise) in SGGS ji ?. If not, then why? If not then why our beloved gurus had divided the gurbani on basis of raga and ghars? Seems as, if I was carried away by emotions and gone off the track, but could not sustain myself.
May waheguru bless us with the power to abide by the instructions put up by gurus in gurbani.
Roopsidhu


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## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

SSA
originalli quoted by Narayanjot ji
All I was asking was for your opinion of those two paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make of them. Your opinion is still welcome. Thanks.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> 
I have already posted my reply. But for a moment when I read the word "ambivalent" I was not able to understand in which context it was written. Any how, please do write your views about my post
roopsidhu


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## Astroboy (May 18, 2010)

Here is what I found in resonance with this topic. 
Secret Teachings of All Ages: The Pythagorean Theory of Music and Color


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## spnadmin (May 18, 2010)

roopsidhu ji

I can't really voice an opinion because this is an area which I do not have technical knowledge. 



> So based on the “ras bhav” ( prakriti) of the bani  it might has been divided into 31 raagas. The set of notes of different  ragas will produce the different frequency of vibrations depending upon  the ras bhav of the bani, and when resonance will be in effect that bani  will travel to the deeper most layers of mind and will have permanent  effect on the mind. Then only the surat will meet the prime source (God)
> Singing contains two parts, lai and taal ( tune  and rythem). Supposing  the Lai (the tune being the most important part  for creating resonance) when guru ji divided the bani in ragas the most  important part of Tune was taken care of. But still, as the remaining  part Taal (rhythm) was remaining. I believe to complete the process in  full  parts of gurbani were specified by Ghar (rhythm) also. It seems  that when the music is created in particular raag and is being sung in  particular ghar (rythem) it might be creating the best possible  resonance with the minds of the listeners. WOW the fine scientific  occurrences like acoustic resonance has been taking care of while  compiling gurbani. When I think about this my head bows further towards  the feet of satguru.




So intuitively it seems right. We know that kirtan has this effect from individual and personal experience. The musical organization makes that possible, makes a connection with the deepest parts of the mind possible. So I have to nod my head in agreement with you. Now it would be great if the ideas expressed in your comments could be expanded, elaborated into more research and investigation.


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## spnadmin (May 18, 2010)

NamJap ji

The article you have just linked to the discussion is fascinating from beginning to end, and I think there is some truth to it. Modern investigations in the area of physics have examined connections between resonance and changes in physical form.


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## mattqatsi (May 18, 2010)

I havn't forgotten about this, sorry I havn't responded. I'm working out a response but I have a 30-page paper due in two days. I'll be back Thurs/Friday with something to say


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## polpol (Sep 16, 2010)

Numerology is originally a hebrew construct and can only make sense with the Hebrew alphabet. Each letter indeed stands for a number so it is possible to find meaning in an equation or a mathematical formula. Protestants took much interest by the Kabbale (a set of mystic and esoteric knowledge), and tried to apply Hebrew conepts and principles to the New Testament to find some hidden meaning. The "epta" thing is indeed very important. In Jewish tradition there is something sacred or meaningful about the number 7. For some, all this is just plain superstition while others see it as a path to mystic ie. hidden and higher knowledge. I don't think we can just borrow concepts from one culture and apply them to another and expect any sereous result. Later I will make a demonstration of numerology using our friend Mattqatsi but now I have to go. I thought people gave some time to this thread so it would be a way to conclude in case our friend doesn't show up. I hope he is ok. He seemed very stressed out.


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## Seeker9 (Sep 16, 2010)

Dear Polpol Ji

I don't belive in numerology or significant numbers...9 is another as it is the highest single number and features in eastern culture including Buddhism

But I am intrigued by your forthcoming demonstration and look forward to it!!!


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## polpol (Sep 16, 2010)

Here is a simple demonstration of numerology: Suppose we are in the middle ages and I read what Mattqatsi wrote and I have a feeling he is going heretic about the Bible. So I want to know more about him but I only know his name and his date of birth. First, I take his name and change the letters of his name into numbers according to A=1, b=2,etc. This will give us 13-1-20-20-17-1-20-19-9. I add them up and I come up with 1230. The real sum is 120 but I'm a monk (devinely inspired), so I chose to write 30 as the sum of the first coloumn which is right, instead of keeping the 3 for the left coloumn, though I also added 3 to that coloumn as we should do in an ordinary addition. So his name is narrowed down to 1-2-3-0...we drop 0 because it's just "nothing" and I see that his weird name in letters has a nice sound, simple, nothing to worry about...just a simple 1,2,3 kind of a guy. I now add up these 3 numbers and it gives 6...oh!?
Now let's look at the year of his birth. 1987. Do you see something? His name goes up from 1 to 2 to 3 and the year of his birth goesn down from 9 to 8 to 7 or if we prefer it goes up if we read from right to left, which is ok too. I left out the 1 because I had left out the 0 in his name and because I want to keep a set of 3 numbers. Now if I add 9-8-7, I come up with 24 and 2+4=6...oh! oh!? 
Let's continue. I notice that between 3 (the last number of his name), and 7 (the last number of his birth year, there is 4-5-6 and if I add them it gives 15 and 1+5=6! OMG!!!
So we have 6 for his name, 6 in between and 6 for his birth year. 666, the number of the Beast in the Bible. If I were a monk in the middle ages that would be enough to have our poor friend accused of sorcery and be burned alive! Luckily, he could defend himself since I did not consider the day and the month of his birth... the tenth of the sixth month and so we add 6 + 1 (drop the 0), which equals 7 (that's better) and he could also argue that I should have kept the 1 in 1987 whose sum is 25, resulting into 7 and not 6. 
So what can we make of all this? Nothing, absolutely NOTHING Ha! Ha! If we were real Kabbalists, who knows, but we're not and that's the point I wanted to make.


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## Seeker9 (Sep 17, 2010)

HAH HAH HAH
That's brilliant! 
And worrying too....perhaps we have been infiltrated by the dark side.....
I posted on a similar thread before that given enough data volume, it's easy to divine patterns and meaning where none exist
But in this case, the source document is one that has been chopped and changed and translated and edited numerous times. How could there possibly be any retained pattern from the original greek/hebrew/coptic texts to the English text (of which there are also multiple versions) now!
Excellent post!


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