# Were The Guru's Really Divine (prophets) Or Where They Just Enlightened?



## Jasdeep118 (Jul 18, 2018)

So, as I study more and more of Sikhism, I am starting to have a concern with my fellow Sikhs and their particular dogmatic views on Sikhism. As realize from the beginnings of Sikhi it was more of a mystic and spiritual type and was simply looking within your self, and looking through God. Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji said he was lowly of the lowly and was a humble of servant of God. Heck, I just feel that Sikhism wasn't even supposed to be a religion in the first place, but a philosophy or a way of life, but as we get deeper down into Sikhism I realize that it becomes more political and religious. I also realised that there was nepotism, instead of caste as Guru Amar Das Ji's daughter made a "beanti" request for the next Guru's to be "sodhi's", and Guru Amar Das Ji said so.I mean Guru Nakak Dev Ji was a Bedi, Guru Angad was a Trehan, and Guru Amar Das Ji a Bhella. Yes, they were Khatri's; however, they didn't choose their own family members, but chose those that were close. I also felt, that if Guru Amar Das Ji's daughter didn't make that request. Than made Bhai Buddha Ji would've been a Guru and the first non Khatri. As a result every Guru was a Sodhi, but I realised it wasn't exact nepotism as they didn't chose their direct son's, but also tested them. Choosing their sons over their relatives and such, but Guru Gobind Singh's sons died, and he had no one to pass the torch, so he passed it to the Guru Granth Sahib. Look, I am not criticising them, I respect their teachings. Especially Guru Gobind Singh Ji who put the layer on the cake by allowing so many lower caste, women, and outcasts into Sikhi. I am just saying that they were regular human beings who were just enlightened, and not just mere prophets from God like Judeo Christainity. It concerns me how so many Sikh's worship these Guru's as literal Gods, even the Guru Granth mentions Guru Nanak as a mere servant as well. I am a sinner, saved only by the company of the Guru. He has bestowed the Teachings of the Lord's Name, which saves me. What glorious virtues of yours can I describe, O my true Guru? When the Guru speaks, I am transfixed with wonder. Can anyone else save a sinner like me? The true Guru has protected and saved me. O Guru, you are my father. O Guru, you are my mother. O Guru, you are my relative, companion and friend. My condition, O my true Guru, is known only to you. I was rolling around in the dirt, and no one cared for me at all. In the company of the Guru, I, the lowly, have been raised up and exalted. Blessed is the Guru of servant Nanak; meeting Him, all my sorrows and troubles have come to an end (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 167).
I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines. I serve the One Lord, and not any other. I do not perform Hindu worship, nor do I practice the Muslim prayers. I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1136).

Look I am saying that the Guru's werent perfect, they were enlightened, but they made the same mistakes. Such as neptoism, and even though Sikhism allows only monogamy. There are controversial reports saying that the Guru's had more than more wives, in the late era of Sikhism. Such as Guru Hargobind, Guru Har Rai (Well, they claim he had 8 wives which is absurd), and Guru Gobind which claim he either had 1 wife with 2 names, but I accept he had 2 wives, one the spiritual mother of Khalsa the other the mother of the Char Sahib Jade, yet I understand that they were married young so it wasn't their fault, also the Guru's couldn't refuse as they the girl would've been shunned, and people would wanted their daughters to get married to the Guru's so I understand the frusteration. But for me, I just tend to realise the issue with all religions is that after they died, they just tend to make up fake stories about them like mythlogies, even though they were similar enlightened people who became one with God, or for the Buddha, finding the truth and seeking liberation.

So in the shortrun is.. Was Sikhism suppose to be a religion, or was it more likely to be a philsophy like Taoism, or some sort of mysticism. I just felt that Guru Nanak Dev Ji, when he said there was no hindu or no muslim. In my meaning said that you don't have to be a Hindu, or a Muslim or be dogmatic to seek God, as God is without creed or faith. I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines. I serve the One Lord, and not any other. I do not perform Hindu worship, nor do I practice the Muslim prayers. I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1136).
As this quote mentioned, I just feel that Sikhism is losing that mystic touch that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had, and now has become more militaristic and dogmatic. For me I realise that all of these religous figures were simply englithened humans who found the truth within themselves.


For myself, I am not an atheist, nor am I doubter. I questioned myself regarding god and once considered myself an Agnostic, and the thedoices such as the problem of evil, and I realised that suffering is a human construct. I mean animals don't complain about it. For God, I just realise that there is a God and it is beyond the human view. That we are all part of God, and everything is part of it. I do not believe in a personal God that is anthropomorphic. that interves in humanity, but a God that created the universe, and we are all connected with God. So consider myself a Pantheist, Panentheist, Deist, whatever. I know there is a higher power, and it is consciouness. I believe that there is life after death, and our consciouness will join another shell, as there are reports saying that people were aware that they died, but they are not sure if it continures, and rats also realise that they have perished too.
After death, you’re aware that you’ve died, say scientists
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/pdf Here is a more accurate general 
Life and death come to all who are born. Everything here gets devoured by death. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 15).
I know that death is a natural process, and I shouldn't be scared as I am only 16.  I understand that my views are controversial, and no I am doubting Sikhism. I just realise that some parts of Sikhism have been edited or changed. Just like Christainity, I mean the Bible has been edited by outside sources for their own gains. Apparently Jesus taught reincarnation, but it was removed, and there wasn't supposed to be a church to worship. As Act 17:24 mentions The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. Which is why I am a Sikh, I am a student and I am a disciple, trying to learn the secret path of God through my own style. All of these religions met God in their own spritual paths, I want to do it my way. I know in the eyes of the SGPC, and the Rehat Maryada, I am not a Sikh.
A Sikh is defined as any person, male or female, who faithfully:


believes in the existence of One Eternal God
follows the teachings of, and accepts as their only Spiritual guides, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten human Gurus
believes in the baptism (Amrit Sanchar), as promoted by the tenth Guru
does not owe allegiance to any other religion
As I am a filthy patit nasteek in their eyes as I am a mona, but they are the SGPC. A manmade organization that monoplies their money on God. They are responsible for crashing Sikhism into the ground, and causing the younger generations like me into doubt. I do not accept the Janamshaki's, but I believe. I believe in God, afterlife, and such. I accept the teachings of Guru Nanak, and the Guru Granth, but I do not accept that they were mere prophets. Just regular human beings who were enlightened by God.

P.S
Sorry for the long rant, but I do not want to insult Sikhism, and I am fanascied by Sikhi. Especially by Guru Nanak as in my eyes he was a rationalist, a person who questions. He questioned the teachings of rituals, and such, but I realize that Sikhism has become dogmatic and people just listen to wait their parents taught them. Aren't we all supposed to learn God or Whaeguru in our own paths. I am not rejecting Sikhism, but I realise that every religion has a good intention, but their followers and those with greed and ego tend to corrupt it. So in my opinion I consider Sikhism as a philosphy, but as the years went by. It soon became more of a dogmatic practice due to political and religous influence.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 18, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> So, as I study more and more of Sikhism, I am starting to have a concern with my fellow Sikhs and their particular dogmatic views on Sikhism. As realize from the beginnings of Sikhi it was more of a mystic and spiritual type and was simply looking within your self, and looking through God. Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji said he was lowly of the lowly and was a humble of servant of God. Heck, I just feel that Sikhism wasn't even supposed to be a religion in the first place, but a philosophy or a way of life, but as we get deeper down into Sikhism I realize that it becomes more political and religious. I also realised that there was nepotism, instead of caste as Guru Amar Das Ji's daughter made a "beanti" request for the next Guru's to be "sodhi's", and Guru Amar Das Ji said so.I mean Guru Nakak Dev Ji was a Bedi, Guru Angad was a Trehan, and Guru Amar Das Ji a Bhella. Yes, they were Khatri's; however, they didn't choose their own family members, but chose those that were close. I also felt, that if Guru Amar Das Ji's daughter didn't make that request. Than made Bhai Buddha Ji would've been a Guru and the first non Khatri. As a result every Guru was a Sodhi, but I realised it wasn't exact nepotism as they didn't chose their direct son's, but also tested them. Choosing their sons over their relatives and such, but Guru Gobind Singh's sons died, and he had no one to pass the torch, so he passed it to the Guru Granth Sahib. Look, I am not criticising them, I respect their teachings. Especially Guru Gobind Singh Ji who put the layer on the cake by allowing so many lower caste, women, and outcasts into Sikhi. I am just saying that they were regular human beings who were just enlightened, and not just mere prophets from God like Judeo Christainity. It concerns me how so many Sikh's worship these Guru's as literal Gods, even the Guru Granth mentions Guru Nanak as a mere servant as well. I am a sinner, saved only by the company of the Guru. He has bestowed the Teachings of the Lord's Name, which saves me. What glorious virtues of yours can I describe, O my true Guru? When the Guru speaks, I am transfixed with wonder. Can anyone else save a sinner like me? The true Guru has protected and saved me. O Guru, you are my father. O Guru, you are my mother. O Guru, you are my relative, companion and friend. My condition, O my true Guru, is known only to you. I was rolling around in the dirt, and no one cared for me at all. In the company of the Guru, I, the lowly, have been raised up and exalted. Blessed is the Guru of servant Nanak; meeting Him, all my sorrows and troubles have come to an end (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 167).
> I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines. I serve the One Lord, and not any other. I do not perform Hindu worship, nor do I practice the Muslim prayers. I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1136).
> 
> Look I am saying that the Guru's werent perfect, they were enlightened, but they made the same mistakes. Such as neptoism, and even though Sikhism allows only monogamy. There are controversial reports saying that the Guru's had more than more wives, in the late era of Sikhism. Such as Guru Hargobind, Guru Har Rai (Well, they claim he had 8 wives which is absurd), and Guru Gobind which claim he either had 1 wife with 2 names, but I accept he had 2 wives, one the spiritual mother of Khalsa the other the mother of the Char Sahib Jade, yet I understand that they were married young so it wasn't their fault, also the Guru's couldn't refuse as they the girl would've been shunned, and people would wanted their daughters to get married to the Guru's so I understand the frusteration. But for me, I just tend to realise the issue with all religions is that after they died, they just tend to make up fake stories about them like mythlogies, even though they were similar enlightened people who became one with God, or for the Buddha, finding the truth and seeking liberation.
> ...


Jasdeep118 ji thanks for your post. Your's is not a rant! It is a very good expose on Sikhism from its roots to the present.

I encourage you to stay flexible and open in thought and be a Sikh for life _(a learner who with every passage of time finds the oneness expounded repeatedly in SGGS)_. Remember the beautiful gift of Sikhism'd roots, a freedom to think for yourself with no intermediaries between you and the proverbial God/creator. Our Guru ji's for me were great teachers. Sikhism thought and philosophy has survived and grown in kind and quality over the years. People like you are examples. When I was your age, I was not even 10% of who you are right now.

I do suggest that you keep an open mind, don't harden and explore further the following areas as I excerpt from your post;


You state, _"I believe that there is life after death, and our consciousness will join another shell, as there are reports saying that people were aware that they died, but they are not sure if it continures, and rats also realise that they have perished too."_
You may want to review the posts/threads among others; 
https://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/debate-spiritual-vs-non-spiritual-interpretation-of-gurbani.42486/page-9#post-199216; 
Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani


You state, _"I just feel that Sikhism is losing that mystic touch that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had, and now has become more militaristic and dogmatic."_
Your statement has merit. However, we must recognize that to allow for the survival of Sikhism philosophy, was an uphill battle. The religions of the day hated the Sikh philosophy which freed people from the clutches of strict regimens and hierarchies in Islam and Hinduism. Many a sacrificed their lives, many went through torture, and the Sikh history is filled with such sacrifices made by people who believed in Sikhism all dogmas or other hangups aside. Sikh philosophy and Sikhism will be always under attack. Sikhism has shut down many profitable arrangements for managers of many of the dominant eastern religions. Be it ready made solutions for salvation, tveets and gems for good fortune, a place in heaven if you comply and so on. I hope and assume you get the drift.
In such situations there are at least two approaches; pacifist or active. Sikhism never was pacifist and SGGS does not teach us to be so nor any of the Gurus. Not being pacifist does not simply translate into militaristic and dogmatic but it may for some. But that is the freedom Sikhism gives to all in this regard the only caution is that it is a personal choice that may not be thrust upon others. Here sometimes there are failings and it is regrettable. We however cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. Work on the good and expand the good. The bad will diminish naturally.

Again I wish you much more brilliance with time and keep up your good posts and writings.

Sat Sri Akal​


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## Jasdeep118 (Jul 18, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> Jasdeep118 ji thanks for your post. Your's is not a rant! It is a very good expose on Sikhism from its roots to the present.
> 
> I encourage you to stay flexible and open in thought and be a Sikh for life _(a learner who with every passage of time finds the oneness expounded repeatedly in SGGS)_. Remember the beautiful gift of Sikhism'd roots, a freedom to think for yourself with no intermediaries between you and the proverbial God/creator. Our Guru ji's for me were great teachers. Sikhism thought and philosophy has survived and grown in kind and quality over the years. People like you are examples. When I was your age, I was not even 10% of who you are right now.
> 
> ...


Thank you Ambarsaria, the issue is with this current and modern generation in Canada is a wide array of issues. I mean people just follow what their parents do. For example when I went to the Gurduwara I would always touch my hand on the platform of the nishan sahib, the stairs and the entry before I enter the darbar sahib and I realise that it was all pointless worship. I understand doing matha tek for the Guru Granth, its our spiritural guru a teacher. Its giving respect to your teacher, but it gets ritualistic to a point where you cover it in blankets, and tucking in it to bed. And for the Guru's, I realise that the later Guru's were hypocrites them selves with them marrying more than one wife, and I realise that there is a nepotism after Guru Amar Das Ji. One last thing are the Sikh Gurus prophets from God, or are they just enlightened souls who understood God? Also was Sikhism was supposed to be a religion, or was it suppose to be Philosophy, because Guru Nanak himself didnt' mention he created a religion I am not sure. Was it just simply a Bhakti Philosophy from the Bhakti Movement. The issue I was stating before is that I realize that so many Sikhs take Sikhism word for word. Like believe in the miracles of the Guru's, the beheading of Baba Deep, etc. I don't believe any of them as they were written after his death the Janamshaki's, written by many authors. I follow the Guru Granth with respect, but the issue is. People tend to misunderstand what is a metaphor and what is to be literal, and thats what I love about the religous texts. I mean these prophets never mention if they are literal or metaphor so it is open to the readers interpertation.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 18, 2018)

Jasdeep118 I see what you see too. You are a thinking man so don't need to be robotic in actions or thinking. Don't get caught up in sementics either and don't sweat the small stuff.

As a child grows they follow as in monkey see - monkey do. That is almost genetic in the growth of humans in almost all societies. You certainly get freedom to unshackle yourself as you progress in life. Sakhis (stories) are that, stories with art of narration, entertainment, respect and even reverence for the people who the sakhis relate to, and so on. A thinking man takes all that into account in this regard and you have done that.

I personally do not believe that some of your language regarding the Guru ji's is appropriate, it diminish and does not enhance oneself to say bad about others be those Guru ji's or other people. Positivity will go a long way if you so choose.

In terms of what others do or follow, you will find the company you want to keep. So find such company and don't worry so much about literal or metaphor messages people take from SGGS. Many a times there are two sides to people. One internal and the other external. Very rarely, if ever, you will get to know the internal of others and that generally has lot in common among many versus the external which is more likely to be quite different among many.

Jasdeep118 ji the other thing to remember about SGGS is that it is poetry. Poetry is rarely if ever literal and hence many people will take something different from the same poem. Similarly the SGGS gives you the opportunity to expand your mind (metaphors, etc.) versus being written or translated into prose. It has been established by scholars with capabilities much beyond mine that poetry cannot be translated precisely to express its essence. As such you will see people express their understandings differently and literal is an example of the same.

Sat Sri Akal


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## Jasdeep118 (Jul 18, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> Jasdeep118 I see what you see too. You are a thinking man so don't need to be robotic in actions or thinking. Don't get caught up in sementics either and don't sweat the small stuff.
> 
> As a child grows they follow as in monkey see - monkey do. That is almost genetic in the growth of humans in almost all societies. You certainly get freedom to unshackle yourself as you progress in life. Sakhis (stories) are that, stories with art of narration, entertainment, respect and even reverence for the people who the sakhis relate to, and so on. A thinking man takes all that into account in this regard and you have done that.
> 
> ...


I understand your views, and I am sorry for disrespecting the Sikh Gurus, but I was wondering if the Guru's were like prophets or messiahs like the Judeo-Christain Faith like Moses, Jesus, or Mohammed, where they just enlightened humans? Like I respect all of the Guru's, they have done such a contribution to Sikhism. Especially Guru Gobind Singh who allowed women, lower caste, and outcasts to join Sikhi, but as I heard. Some of them had more than one wife, such as Hargobind, Har Rai, and Guru Gobind I know it is controversial, but I mean they are human beings. We all make mistakes.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 18, 2018)

I will say, "   very very ..... enlightened humans"  

Simply "Gurmukhs" who none of us had the opportunity to be physically with but many have done so spiritually. I often close my eyes and try to visualize the environs of when a shabad or a part of it was written, sung/expressed or discoursed by Guru ji..

Sat Sri Akal


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## Jasdeep118 (Jul 19, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> I will say, "   very very ..... enlightened humans"
> 
> Simply "Gurmukhs" who none of us had the opportunity to be physically with but many have done so spiritually. I often close my eyes and try to visualize the environs of when a shabad or a part of it was written, sung/expressed or discoursed by Guru ji..
> 
> Sat Sri Akal


Well, you were right Ambarsaria, I was on reddit when I stumbled upon this random quote. I checked it on a lot of sites seeing if this quote was true it was. On Ang 933.

ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹੁ ॥

Gur Kehiaa Saa Kaar Kamaavahu ||

Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) (੨੭):੭ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੩੩ ਪੰ. ੮ 
Raag Raamkali Dakhni Guru Nanak Dev


ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਧਾਵਹੁ ॥

Gur Kee Karanee Kaahae Dhhaavahu ||

Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions?

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) (੨੭):੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੩੩ ਪੰ. ੮ 
Raag Raamkali Dakhni Guru Nanak Dev

I guess in my view it is saying listen to what the Guru's have taught you, don't go after their actions. Man, I don't know if this was pure luck or coincidence, that I found this quote. Really helped with my doubts.


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## Rajveer_97 (Jul 21, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹੁ ॥
> 
> Gur Kehiaa Saa Kaar Kamaavahu ||
> 
> ...



For me this only created more doubts. Because the thing that came to my mind was - this could give any leader a bit of a free pass. Shouldn't a leader lead by example? I'm really not sure how I feel about this verse. I welcome any further analysis to understand it.


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## Jasdeep118 (Jul 21, 2018)

Rajveer_97 said:


> For me this only created more doubts. Because the thing that came to my mind was - this could give any leader a bit of a free pass. Shouldn't a leader lead by example? I'm really not sure how I feel about this verse. I welcome any further analysis to understand it.


Hello Rajveer Bhaiji, I saw your post where you had doubts regarding Sikhi. So, how is your journey going trying to find the truth.

Regardless, in my opinion, I just listen and follow what the Guru's teach and the philosophy. I come to peace regarding the history of the Gurus and such. So what, I mean they weren't Messiah's sent here from God like in Judeo-Christain, but I just believe that they were simply enlightened humans who recognized the truth. I know some Sikh's believe that the Guru's were literally sent by Whaeguru, but I don't believe in that. In my opinion, I believe that every religious figure was simply enlightened and found the truth on their own paths. Also, the Guru's are humans, and just like humans they make mistakes. I know everyone has their own views on the Guru's, but that's my opinion.

Rajveer, I was in the same boat as you I questioned why the Guru's were all Khatri's, the polygamy and such, I read the history. I just realized that they were simply human beings who tend to make mistakes like every other human being. Regardless of what, I am not denying it or ignoring it, but I simply came with peace. I also realized that people forget there were 11 Gurus, I mean this Guru has no gender, no caste, not a human, and such it is the Guru Granth Sahib. I was also in the same boat as you as I was an Agnostic doubting God, but I now believe that there is a high being out there and such, but God or Whaeguru is beyond human comprehension just like Guru Nanak Dev Ji said.

Also, the reason why I like Sikhi because it means that you are trying to find the True Guru within yourself. And Sikh means in Punjabi, student. I am simply a student trying to find the true path within Waheguru through my own ways. Thats what I think Guru Nanak Dev Ji preached, that the Truth is everywhere. It isn't within the confines of Priests, or the words of men, but that truth can be sought everywhere and anywhere. It doesn't mean that one religion has all of the truth, but every religion is equal and has their own unique ways of finding the truth. In my opinion, I just follow Sikhi not in a dogmatic fashion where I go to the Gurudwara and pray, as I realize that within myself and heart. That my body is a Gurdwara, Mosque, Monastery, Church, Synagogue, and Temple. Within it, God is inside. As Bullah Shah said
"Tear down the mosque and temple too, break all that divides
But do not break the human heart as it is there that God resides."

That's what Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Arjun Dev Ji said.
Page 1002, Line 3
ਬਾਹਰਿ ਢੂਢਨ ਤੇ ਛੂਟਿ ਪਰੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ਥਾ ॥
बाहरि ढूढन ते छूटि परे गुरि घर ही माहि दिखाइआ था ॥
Bāhar dẖūdẖan ṯe cẖẖūt pare gur gẖar hī māhi ḏikẖā▫i▫ā thā.
I have quit searching outside; the Guru has shown me that *God is within* the home of my own heart.
*Guru Arjan Dev
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਇਉ ਘਰੁ ਮਹਲੁ ਸਿਞਾਪੈ ॥
अंतरि बाहरि एकु पछाणै इउ घरु महलु सिञापै ॥
Anṯar bāhar ek pacẖẖāṇai i▫o gẖar mahal siñāpai.
Realize that the One God is inside and outside; understand this, that the Mansion of His Presence is within the home of your heart.

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਹਰਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਏਕੋ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਬਾਈ ॥
प्रभु नेड़ै हरि दूरि न जाणहु एको स्रिसटि सबाई ॥
Parabẖ neṛai har ḏūr na jāṇhu eko sarisat sabā▫ī.
God is near at hand; do not think that God is far away. The One Lord permeates the entire universe.

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੁ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੫॥
एकंकारु अवरु नही दूजा नानक एकु समाई ॥५॥
Ėkankār avar nahī ḏūjā Nānak ek samā▫ī. ||5||
There in One Universal Creator Lord; there is no other at all. O Nanak, merge into the One Lord. ||5||
Note: This is Page 930 
*
Regardless Rajveer Bhaiji, I know that my answer and response isn't satisfactory, and I am pretty sure it doesn't relate to your question, but in my own way. That's why you are a Sikh Rajveer, its not because go to the Gurudwara and listen to the Guru Granth Sahib, but you are simply a student trying to realize the truth for yourself. Regardless, good luck on your journey friend and I hope you will seek all the answers you want.

In a nutshell, I just follow Sikhi as a philosophy, and I was in the same doubts as you. I had an existental crisis, and had a depression back in 2015 when I first joined this forum. I was a wavering Agnostic, but I don't know honestly, I just came to peace with it.


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## Rajveer_97 (Jul 22, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Hello Rajveer Bhaiji, I saw your post where you had doubts regarding Sikhi. So, how is your journey going trying to find the truth.
> 
> Regardless, in my opinion, I just listen and follow what the Guru's teach and the philosophy. I come to peace regarding the history of the Gurus and such. So what, I mean they weren't Messiah's sent here from God like in Judeo-Christain, but I just believe that they were simply enlightened humans who recognized the truth. I know some Sikh's believe that the Guru's were literally sent by Whaeguru, but I don't believe in that. In my opinion, I believe that every religious figure was simply enlightened and found the truth on their own paths. Also, the Guru's are humans, and just like humans they make mistakes. I know everyone has their own views on the Guru's, but that's my opinion.
> 
> ...



Hello Jasdeep ji,

My journey is still one without a clear path or end is it! It's definitely turning out to be quite educational though. I loved reading your post, because you basically wrote thoughts which mirror mine, but only a much better and clearer way and I'm inclined to agree with the points you make. I am also treating Sikhi as a philosophsy, I find it hard to abandon it simply because there is so much knowledge and beauty in the SGGS Ji. The lives the Gurus led are exemplary, one everyone can learn from - whether Sikh or not. However, it does seem to me like Sikhi has turned into something it maybe wasn't meant to be. At which point this diversion started I am not sure, but it sure happened. For one I find too many gaps and uncertainties in the history and teachings (which goes for every religion I've so far looked at). One true absolute Truth may be hard to follow, but if it really is the absolute Truth then it shouldn't be easily prone to misinterpretation and uncertainties. I might get heat for this, but please sangat ji realise my intent is not to harm anyone's sentiments, but for example the Rehit, it's changed throughout history (which is fine) but shouldn't there have been some guideline over how to modify it with the time? What's set in stone and what's not? According to the offical SRM most of Sikhs are really not Sikhs. I've now come across some Sikhs, adopting an exclusive mindset, saying that to attain liberation one needs to be born into a Sikh family. To me as well the Guru's were englightened teachers. Maybe they did indeed have a connection with God and maybe they were indeed given a mission by God. But they were also humans and maybe they did make small mistakes here and there. As you basically said, all thats happened is at it's birth Sikhi rejected many rituals but now in present day all that has happened is those rituals have been replaced with new unnecessary ones. These issues are also so complicated and deep that many people will struggle to find the time and energy to dig truly deep and find clarity - this leads to them taking the word of popular speaker's as gospel.

So what then? It'd be an error to assume when one falls out of love with a religion's orthodoxy they should necessarily shun the whole religion and fall down to the atheist or agnostic stance. Would I consider myself either of those two? No, after long thinking it makes sense to me there is SOMETHING out there. All I can do is keep on questioning and learning. Explore different philosophies. Be critical in thinking and try to follow what seems right. Would I still consider myself a Sikh? Depends. If by Sikh one means, as you said, a disciple/learner of the Truth. But as per SRM no.

I have to be really honest with myself. I love Sikh teachings but I feel I've always felt practicing it the way it is, may not be for me. I ignored that feeling for a while, thinking with time I'll learn more, maybe it's just my ego in the way, etc etc but it just caused inner turmoil. Or maybe I'm just not ready to fully submit myself. I can't be. The story of people having faith crises and in the end reverting to their original beliefs more strongly is one I've now seen and read several times with different religions and it all follows the same story generally. If I am to find the truth I can't do this, I need to look at everything with as open a mind as possible.
There is beauty to be found in several teachings out there which are worth exploring with an open mind. As a famous philosopher once said (can't remember his name apologies), if you want to get closer to the Truth then at some point you have to be able to question everything.

Bhul Chuk Maaf


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## Jasdeep118 (Jul 22, 2018)

Rajveer_97 said:


> Hello Jasdeep ji,
> 
> My journey is still one without a clear path or end is it! It's definitely turning out to be quite educational though. I loved reading your post, because you basically wrote thoughts which mirror mine, but only a much better and clearer way and I'm inclined to agree with the points you make. I am also treating Sikhi as a philosophsy, I find it hard to abandon it simply because there is so much knowledge and beauty in the SGGS Ji. The lives the Gurus led are exemplary, one everyone can learn from - whether Sikh or not. However, it does seem to me like Sikhi has turned into something it maybe wasn't meant to be. At which point this diversion started I am not sure, but it sure happened. For one I find too many gaps and uncertainties in the history and teachings (which goes for every religion I've so far looked at). One true absolute Truth may be hard to follow, but if it really is the absolute Truth then it shouldn't be easily prone to misinterpretation and uncertainties. I might get heat for this, but please sangat ji realise my intent is not to harm anyone's sentiments, but for example the Rehit, it's changed throughout history (which is fine) but shouldn't there have been some guideline over how to modify it with the time? What's set in stone and what's not? According to the offical SRM most of Sikhs are really not Sikhs. I've now come across some Sikhs, adopting an exclusive mindset, saying that to attain liberation one needs to be born into a Sikh family. To me as well the Guru's were englightened teachers. Maybe they did indeed have a connection with God and maybe they were indeed given a mission by God. But they were also humans and maybe they did make small mistakes here and there. As you basically said, all thats happened is at it's birth Sikhi rejected many rituals but now in present day all that has happened is those rituals have been replaced with new unnecessary ones. These issues are also so complicated and deep that many people will struggle to find the time and energy to dig truly deep and find clarity - this leads to them taking the word of popular speaker's as gospel.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much Rajveer Bhaiji, me and you faced a lot of tough challenges. I had issues with depression, and it really affected my life. I am a big historical buff as you, and I realize throughout history, religion changes quite a bit, like after the death of a leader it sort of tumbles down. Like for example Buddhism, Buddha lead a good movement of finding the truth just like Sikhism and trying to achieve Nirvana, but soon after he died. The leader of his sects started to fight and quibble and as a result, it turned into 3 Sects of Buddhism Vajrayana, Mahyanana, and Theravada. Same with Christianity, I mean Jesus taught a lot of good things, and apparently there was a conspiracy that he actually taught reincarnation, but Paul I think censored it. I mean the Bible has a lot of good teachings trust me, but throughout history people censor it in their own will. Apparently the Vatican has some secrets about Christainity in their secret library. Same with Hinduism, I mean I know modern Hinduism is controversial, but in Vedic Hinduism, it wasn't that bad. Yes, there was a caste system, but it was based on skill not on birth, I forgot but it was like we are all born Shudra's; however, as time passed and the people who held higher power (Brahmins) soon used it to their control and made laws such as Manusmriti which many Hindu's don't accept. If you read it, its very sexist and racist. In the Vedas there is no mention of caste by birth but by varna. Vedic Hinduism was quite unique, it had schools of philosophy. I think around 2/6 Schools were Atheistic in which they denied God, but believed in God. Astika and Nastika schools search it up Indian philosophy - Wikipedia, I also realised that women had better rights in the past. They were allowed to get their thread tied, the Rishi's or composers of the Vedas were women, it sang praises of Women as well, but as history changed, hinduism changed. Hell, they even had a Atheistic Materialistic School (Charvka), but now people in India hate Atheists which is ironic as there were many Hindu Atheists, including the founder of Hinduvuta (ironically). There was also intercaste marriage, and researchers found out when they stopped intermarrying, it had an effect on the genomes. The caste system has left its mark on Indians’ genomes Hinduism has a wide variety of beliefs such as Atheist, Agnosticism, Pantheism, Deism, Panentheism, Monotheism, Polytheism, etc. Sad thing is that religions have been always used for good, but when power is involved people have become corrupt like the SGPC. They are going to add new gold to the Harminder Sahib, they should use it for food and such, they don't allow women in the Harminder Sahib, etc. The issue is that history is gonna change, and so is religion. People are going to add their own things for their own benefit.

Another issue is that people in these days focus on the Dogmatic aspects of Sikhism, or the militaristic instead of the spiritual side. Like in my view there are 2 types of Sikhs, the Mystical Sikhs who follow Guru Nanak Mainly, and the Khalistani/Militaristic Sikhs who follow Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Also, thats the same issue I have too, like I look at God in a mystical way, you know. The issue is for me is I guess with the Dogma, and I mean earlier from Sikhism it was mysticail or spirtual, but as you go down to the later Guru's it becomes more dogmatic, and political sided due to the Mughal's. Also, it's okay to question, you know Guru Nanak Dev Ji questioned about religion so much. He questioned about Hinduism and Islam, if he didn't question then Sikhi, wouldn't of happen. Also you know the reason why the Bhakti movement happen, because people realised that you don't have to be dogmatic to seek God, but you can be spiritual and question in order to learn. Overall, good luck my friend.

P.S
I agree with you, in SGPC eyes I would be consider a patit nasteek or patit mona.


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## swarn bains (Apr 19, 2019)

i put some remarks on sikh net a while back that writers who wrote sggs were illetrate. and my younger brother threatened me first, but later on he deleted his remarks. though i and ambarsaria live close by to each other but so far he has not harmed me. so thank u ambarsaria jee.


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## swarn bains (Apr 19, 2019)

divine or prophet is the one who is enlightened by birth. In my knowledge there are two krisha and guru nanak. i might be wrong. the guru is God according to sggs. when the prophet touches or speaks mind to mind with sosmeone with intent, he transfers the knowledge or even telepathically and enlightens the next one. the sewak acquires the attributes of his guru  depending upon his ability due to dedication and love and becomes enlightened or the same as his or her guru.


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## Loveisthereason (Apr 20, 2019)

It's weird I never grew up questioning any part of my religion. I don't understand why it happens, what makes people read into something that isn't there. A question by one group is met by questions from another group who are in opposition. I think parenting plays a huge role in shaping a child's approach to the way they view things. At some point we realise our parents are not perfect and we reach a fork in the road. Some of us will try to figure our own way out and in such a process become adults and accept responsibility for our limitations. Others will drop their parents and look for a more perfect replacement and in doing so pick holes in others as their limitations. All people do not have the answers to everything that doesn't mean that there isn't an answer which is understandable for why things are the way that they are. For example what are the short term and long-term implications of decisions taken by our Guru's? There really isn't a negative impact. So what is there then? "I believe this decision was less than perfect". See how silly this approach is. We live in a time where things happen at an incredibly fast pace just imagine the mental juggling required from someone who has to seek out perfection before they can move on from what they are struggling with. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji named the city in Nanded Abchal Nagar, what does this word mean? Some say it is Steadfast, some say Unshakable Root, Firmly fixed. I believe this is the disposition of a Sikh and I like the word because it describes exactly what I am, there is no contraversey or schism that could come up which would make me doubt SIKHI it is very hard to explain how it is to be like this. It is not fanaticism or arrogance, it is not extreme or obsession, it is "Abchal Nagar". In the future people will have to become like this if their SIKHI is to survive, your SIKHI should never be a disguise it should be what you firmly are.


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## IJJSingh (Apr 20, 2019)

I remember a joke from my childhood about two foreigners after seeing dung cakes on a wall arguing about how the cow managed to climb the wall.  My point:  Arguments can become absurd if one focuses on the superficial and ignores the full context.   If one wishes to understand the Gurus, then one must read gurbani.  In my opinion, relying on guru-sakhis, or using our wisdom to classify the Guru as Prophet vs. Enlightened-being would all lead us astray.



Jasdeep118 said:


> I also realised that there was nepotism, instead of caste as Guru Amar Das Ji's daughter made a "beanti" request for the next Guru's to be "sodhi's," and Guru Amar Das Ji said so.



Its not possible to judge an action as pure or impure without knowing the intent behind it.  It is not the action but the “expectation of result” (kamna) we attach to our act that pollutes the action.  Once we become “nehkami ”, and perform actions in his will without attaching our kamna, then these acts are Godly, and at that time there is no difference between us and God (SGGS 286).  Trying to make sense of gurmat using less than reliable sakhis is a risky endeavor. 

The Guru repeatedly stresses one-ness in gurbani i.e. there is nobody else other than God.  According to gurmat, the Guru is no more or no less God than you or I, or an animal, or an object, because all of these are God.   When there is ego we will see only his creation but not God;  when ego departs nothing but the ONE is left.  The ego too is created by God as his world-play to confuse his own parts.  The God himself is the the confuser, the confused and the Guru to help the confused.  Guru is the method (the Shabad) for removing ego; it has not changed, and will not change.  Guru was not born ten times starting in 1469AD.   

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥  My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go.  He is the Imperishable Creator Lord; He is permeating and pervading among all. (SGGS 759).  

If we continue to analyze the Guru as a person or keep getting into the prophet vs. not-a-prophet debate, we are missing the Guru’s message entirely, and we run the risk of getting into absurd debates of how the cow climbed the wall.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2019)

IJJSingh said:


> I remember a joke from my childhood about two foreigners after seeing dung cakes on a wall arguing about how the cow managed to climb the wall.  My point:  Arguments can become absurd if one focuses on the superficial and ignores the full context.   If one wishes to understand the Gurus, then one must read gurbani.  In my opinion, relying on guru-sakhis, or using our wisdom to classify the Guru as Prophet vs. Enlightened-being would all lead us astray.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so how did the cow climb the wall?


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## Parm G (Dec 30, 2020)

Dear Jasdeep,

I Humbly reply to your post. You are young and are getting caught up in conceptual knowledge.

1. to say "just enlightened" and assume it is "lesser" than being "really divine (prophets)" comes from ignorance.  Understand that Being enlightened is equivalent to being divine.  Enlightenment is to realize the illusion of duality of the world.  In fact being a prophet is not divine.  Prophets bring knowlege to the  world but aren't necessarily one with the Divine.

2. Why use western/Abrahamic words such as prophet anyways.  We don't define our gurus according to western/Abrahamic views.  Simply our gurus were GURUs.  The word Guru means from dark to light.  Gurus have the divine ability to allow others to see and reach the divine.  Let the westerners and Abrahamics define their prophets how they want.

3. Talking about nepotism, multiple wives and other nonsense - is not getting the message of Sikhi.  You are not seeing the forest through the trees. The message of Sikhi is find Naam and then make Naam the foremost element of your experience.  When Naam shines through in every moment, then conceptual knowlege becomes meaningless.  You then laugh at what you thought was a world and you a doer/thinker/individual in it.  You realize there was only Naam from the beggining, everpresent, without limits.  All questions dissolve.

4. Is Sikhi a religion ? Again a meaningless question if understood from the view point of the Absolute.  Can  you see a dividing line between Canada and USA when you fly overhead on a plane?  Divisions are manmade.  That is the real meaning of Guru Nanak when he said there is no Hindu or no Muslim.  Drop the manmade divisions of country, caste, religion and see the ONENESS of the Absolute.

5. There is only really one teaching in Gurbani.  It is said in many different ways and in different styles and stories so that it can awaken you.  Find Naam and let it be your satguru, you teacher, your friend, it will lead you away from duality.  You can't really talk about Naam, words can't pont to it.  Words point to experiencial knowlege but Naam is an experience before you have any experience.  If you point to the moon and ask your dog to see the moon, what does he do?  He looks at your finger and not the moon.  The pointers in Gurbani are like that.  They are said in many ways and styles in hopes one will lead you to "see the moon" and not the "finger"

6. Regarding the militaristic viewpoints of Sikhi - if you realize the value of Gurbani and its ability to wake up humanity and see it threatened, then it is righteous to pick up arms to defend Sikhi.  

Chardi Kala


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## swarn bains (Dec 30, 2020)

what is the difference between enlightened and divine or a prophet in your opinion. How much you have studied sggs. I do not want to hear stories they way mentioned before. advise. i will communicate with you


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## Parm G (Dec 30, 2020)

Dear Swarn Bains,

I humbly reply to you.  Scientifically enlightenment can be called ever-present non dual truth understanding.  The key word is non-dual, meaning no subject or object; there is only ONE.  Actually this is already our experience but our minds divide experience into a subject (your body and your awareness ) and an object (the world = Maya).  Inquire into your experience you will see it is non dual.  SGGS states this - without second, Advait.

Enlightenment means to realize the TRUTH (Sach), the reality of everything (non-dual oneness), which can be called the DIVINE.  

Regarding prophets, I have no specific knowledge, it is a western/Abrahamic concept. It is not relevant to Sikhi.  If you have realized that nothing in the world (Maya) can give you peace and happiness, then you already have a deep calling to become enlightened.  If you want to learn about Naam and self-inquiry, send me a PM.


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## swarn bains (Dec 31, 2020)

Sikh faith is totally guru based. Nanak was the guru,. I do not know who was Nanak's guru. then the guruship was further transferred telepathicalyy. Nanak's teaching deals with your or my mind and the guru or God., He laid commandments to straighten the mind. He writes that everything is in the mind and God the guru likes the cleansed mind. I will not wite his commandments. The word prophet is for those who never read or follow Nanak's commandment. I will write the qualifications and power of the guru. Here it is. it is my translation and it may be appreciated by you or those who never try to follow what advises


ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Maaroo, First Mahalla:
ਸੂਰ ਸਰੁ ਸੋਸਿ ਲੈ ਸੋਮ ਸਰੁ ਪੋਖਿ ਲੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਰਤੁ ਸੁ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
Dry your ego in the sun and engulf it then control your breath through yoga practice.
ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੧॥
Stabilize your fishy mind that the swan neither flies nor jumps the wall; ||1||
ਮੂੜੇ ਕਾਇਚੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾ ॥
You fool, why are you deluded by doubt?
ਨਹ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
You do not remember the detached Lord of supreme bliss. ||1||Pause||
ਅਜਰ ਗਹੁ ਜਾਰਿ ਲੈ ਅਮਰ ਗਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਲੈ ਭ੍ਰਾਤਿ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਤਉ ਅਪਿਉ ਪੀਜੈ ॥
Give up wandering and drink the nectar.
ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੨॥
Stabilize your fishy mind, then you will never waver. ||2||
Page 992                
ਭਣਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੋ ਰਵੈ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਨੋ ਮਨ ਪਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥
Nanak humbly prays, if a mortal recites God from the mind;
the mind drinks nectar with every breath.
ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੩॥੯॥
Stabilize your fishy mind; then you will never waver. ||3||9||
ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Maaroo, First Mahalla:
ਸੂਰ ਸਰੁ ਸੋਸਿ ਲੈ ਸੋਮ ਸਰੁ ਪੋਖਿ ਲੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਰਤੁ ਸੁ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
Dry your ego in the sun and engulf it then control your breath through yoga practice.
ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੧॥
Stabilize your fish like mind that the swan neither flies nor jumps the wall; ||1||
ਮੂੜੇ ਕਾਇਚੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾ ॥
You fool, why are you deluded by doubt?
ਨਹ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
You do not remember the detached Lord of supreme bliss. ||1||Pause||
ਅਜਰ ਗਹੁ ਜਾਰਿ ਲੈ ਅਮਰ ਗਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਲੈ ਭ੍ਰਾਤਿ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਤਉ ਅਪਿਉ ਪੀਜੈ ॥
Give up wandering and drink the nectar.
ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੨॥
Stabilize your fishy mind, then you will never waver. ||2||
Page 992                
ਭਣਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੋ ਰਵੈ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਨੋ ਮਨ ਪਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥
Nanak humbly prays, if a mortal recites God from the mind;
the mind drinks nectar with every breath.
ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੩॥੯॥
Stabilize your fishy mind; then you will never waver. ||3||9||

Page 864
ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥
Day and night, Nanak recites His name.
ਸੂਖ ਸਹਜ ਆਨੰਦ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥੬॥
Reciting God`s name attains peace contentment and joy.
||4||4||6||
ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Gond, Fifth Mahalla:
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Enshrine guru`s picture in the mind.
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨ ॥
Through guru`s teachings; enshrine his lesson in the mind.
ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਲੈ ਧਾਰਉ ॥
Enshrine guru’s feet in your heart.
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੧॥
Bow humbly forever before the guru the supreme Lord. ||1||
ਮਤ ਕੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
Let no one wander in doubt in the world.
ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Without the guru, no one can cross over. ||1||Pause||
ਭੂਲੇ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
The guru shows the path to those who wandered off.
ਅਵਰ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
He leads them to renounce others and attaches them to God`s worship.
ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕੀ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥
He erases fear of birth and death.
ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਵਡਾਈ ॥੨॥
Greatness of the perfect guru is endless. ||2||
ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਊਰਧ ਕਮਲ ਬਿਗਾਸ ॥
By guru’s grace, the inverted heart-lotus blossoms;
ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਭਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥
The light shines in the darkness.
ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Whoever realized God; did it through the guru.
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮੁਗਧ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥
By guru’s grace, the foolish mind starts believing. ||3||
ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
Guru is the Creator; guru has power to do everything.
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਗੁ ॥
The guru is the transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਇਹੈ ਜਨਾਈ ॥
Says Nanak that God inspired me to know this;
ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੫॥੭॥
Without guru, liberation is not obtained, O brother. ||4||5||7||
ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Gond, Fifth Mahalla:
ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਨ ਮੋਰ ॥
Say guru, guru, guru, O my mind;
ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰ ॥
I have no other than the guru.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਹਹੁ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥
Take support of the guru, day and night.
ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਦਾਤਿ ॥੧॥
No one can decrease His blessing. ||1||
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥
Know that the guru and the transcendent Lord are one.
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Whatever pleases Him is approved. ||1||Pause||
ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗੈ ॥
One whose mind is attached to  gurus feet;
ਦੂਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਭਾਗੈ ॥
His pains, sufferings and doubts run away.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਪਾਏ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
Serving the guru, obtains honor.
ਗੁਰ ਊਪਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੁ ॥੨॥
I praise the guru forever. ||2||
ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥
Visualizing the guru I become happy.
ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੀ ਪੂਰਲ ਘਾਲ
Efforts of devotee of the guru are rewarded.
ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥
Pain does not afflict guru’s servant.
ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਜਾਪੈ ॥੩॥
Guru’s servant is known in ten directions. ||3||
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Guru’s glory cannot be described.
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
Guru is merged in the supreme Lord.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਭਾਗ ॥
Says Nanak, one who is lucky;
ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗ ॥੪॥੬॥੮॥
His mind is attached to guru’s feet. ||4||6||8||
ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Gond, Fifth Mahalla:
ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ॥
I worship my guru;  guru is the Lord of the universe.
ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥
My guru is the supreme Lord; guru is God.
ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ ॥
My guru is divine, invisible and secretive.
ਸਰਬ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਉ ॥੧॥
Everyone worships guru`s feet and serves him. ||1||
ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਥਾਉ ॥
Without the guru, I have no other place to go.
ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਪਉ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Night and day, I say guru guru guru. ||1||Pause||
ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Guru is my spiritual wisdom; the guru is in my heart.
ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ॥
Guru is Lord of the world, the primal Lord.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਰਹਉ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ॥
With my palms pressed together, I remain in guru’s sanctuary.
ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰੁ ॥੨॥
Without the guru, I have no other; ||2||
ਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਭਵ ਪਾਰਿ ॥
The guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.
ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ ॥
Serving the guru, one is released from the devil of death.
ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਉਜਾਰਾ ॥
Guru`s lesson illuminates the dark.
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੩॥
In guru`s company, all are saved. ||3||
ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥
The perfect guru is found, by luck.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥
Serving the guru, pain does not afflict anyone.
ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
No one can erase guru`s teachings.
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
O Nanak, the guru and God. ||4||7||9||
Page 865. Reading discussing and arguing is totally opposite to practicing. So please give up arguing with ignorant rather follow what the guru says. thank u and God bless all


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## Sikhilove1 (Mar 9, 2022)

swarn bains said:


> Sikh faith is totally guru based. Nanak was the guru,. I do not know who was Nanak's guru. then the guruship was further transferred telepathicalyy. Nanak's teaching deals with your or my mind and the guru or God., He laid commandments to straighten the mind. He writes that everything is in the mind and God the guru likes the cleansed mind. I will not wite his commandments. The word prophet is for those who never read or follow Nanak's commandment. I will write the qualifications and power of the guru. Here it is. it is my translation and it may be appreciated by you or those who never try to follow what advises
> 
> 
> ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Maaroo, First Mahalla:
> ...



The Gurus are trusted by God. They took on the corruption of religions that had lost their way and taught the Truth. Many teachers before them fell, but the Gurus remained True.

They still teach Truth through Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Its ours for the taking. We just have to believe them. The gyan is the Guru, the Guru is the gyan.

There was and is nothing in it for them, they lived the Truth and their seva was teaching it. A beautiful divine act of true love.


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## swarn bains (Mar 19, 2022)

one has to test and see his or her spirituality before commenting on divine wisdom of enlightenment. there are many who read  and translate sggs to the best of their ability, still it does not make them divie or whatever they call as enlightened. I remember a story when neil armstrong and allen sheppard landed on the moon. i was listening on the radio and i was very happy. next day i met a complelte illetrate man and told him that people have landed on the moon. he said that he does not agree with it. tell them to show him landing. i thought for a while and then asked him what was his state of mind. he said he does not know. this is exactly what is happening here. we can all read argu. i have spent over 50 years reading writing and worshipping my own way but i am no where . so i thank all those who are enlightened more than me  but at least i have no enlightenment or divinity. thanks all


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## swarn bains (Mar 19, 2022)

ਹਰਿ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ

ਪਾਕ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ, ਹਰ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਰੈ ਵਿਸਰਾਮ

ਅਪਣਾ ਮਨ ਸਾਫ ਕਰ ਬੰਦੇ, ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਣ ਦਾ ਇਮਤਹਾਨ

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਪੁ ਗਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਰਾਗ, ਇਤ ਮਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ ਸਾਫ

ਸਾਫ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ, ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਕਮਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਤਾਪ

ਰੱਬ ਕਿਧਰੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ, ਚਿੱਤ ਵਸੈ ਬਣ ਮਹਿਮਾਨ

ਪੂਜਾ ਅਰਚਾ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਬੰਦੇ, ਮਨ ਸਾਫ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਵੱਖਰੇ ਧੰਦੇ

ਇਹ ਆਖੈ ਖੋਈ ਉਹ ਆਖੈ, ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੂ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ

ਰੱਬ ਇਕ ਉਹਦਾ ਬਿਰਦ ਇਕ, ਕਿਤ ਵਿਧ ਹੋਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਹਿਚਾਣ

ਜੋ ਜਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਵੈ, ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਵਸਾਵੈ

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੁ ਮਨ ਸਾਫ ਕਰਾਵੈ, ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੈ ਇਨਸਾਨ, ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨ

ਮੇਰਾ ਰੱਬ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਵਸਦਾ, ਛੁਪ ਕੇ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਨਾ ਦੱਸਦਾ

ਜੋ ਜਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤ ਕਰਦਾ, ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਵਸਦਾ

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਹੋਵੈ, ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸੰਗ ਕਰ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ

ਜੋ ਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਵੈ, ਤਿਸ ਜਨ ਮਨ ਸਾਫ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੈ

ਆਪ ਜਪੈ ਸਦ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ, ਸੋ ਜਨ ਸੰਤ ਭਗਤ ਬਣ ਆਵੈ

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਕਾਈ, ਬੈਂਸ, ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣ

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੂ ਹਰ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਵਸਦਾ, ਅਪਣਾ ਭੇਦ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੀ ਦੱਸਦਾ

ਅਪਣਾ ਮਨ ਖੋਜਣਾ ਪੈਂਦਾ, ਰੂਹ ਬਣ ਰੱਬ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਵਸਦਾ

ਹਰ ਜਾ ਹਰ ਜਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਜੂ, ਜਪੁ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੋਏ ਮਨ ਰਾਮ

ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਏ ਰੱਬ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੱਗ ਸਾਜਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ

ਦੂਸਰ ਹੋਵੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ, ਜਿਨ ਸਿਖਿ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ

ਪੂਜੋ ਰਾਮ ਕਰੋ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ, ਸਾਧ ਸੰਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਵਸੈ ਭਗਵਾਨ

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਕਮਾਇ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ, ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਵਸ ਜਾਏ

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਹੋਈਐ, ਨਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਜਨ ਰਾਮ ਸਮਾਏ

ਮਨ ਰਾਮ ਤਨ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਾਮ, ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੁ ਮਨ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੈ ਰਾਮ


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