# Why Is There Discrimination Against Lower Caste Sikhs?



## Jasdeep118 (Apr 4, 2017)

Our 10 Guru's told us that the Caste System is evil, and that everyone is equal no matter what caste you came from. Yet Jatt Sikhs or those from the higher caste discriminate those who are from the lower castes such as the Mazhabi, Chamar, and Ad-Dharmi. Even though Sikhism prohibits the Caste System there is still discriminate. I am a Jatt Sikh myself, but I am disgusted towards my own people, and I am sick and tired of those who want to promote caste system. They will destroy Sikhism, and it will ruin the values. In every Gurdwara I go to I see a Caste name beside it. For example, the Gurdwara I currently go to is called Ramgarhia GurSikh Society, and it has the name "Ramgarhia" which is the Tarkhan caste. Hell, these Gurdwara's are the exact same as the Hindu Mandir's they don't even allow the lower case Sikhs to come in. The discriminate has been so bad that the lower caste sikhs made their own religion Ravidassia I support them. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion because we still follow the damn caste system even though our 10 guru's opposed it. I am tired of the discriminate our fellow Sikhs have to face because of their caste. Also, most Sikhs here have a last name which is connected to our caste even though Guru Gobind Singh Ji created Singh and Kaur so every Sikh will be equal. However, we all have different last names that connect to our caste for example, Gill, Dhillion, Bhogal, Bedi, and Shergill. They both have last names related to caste. We also have marriages only inside our caste, my mother even tells me I have to marry a Jatt girl which is rubbish. I just think we are a bunch of Keshdari Hindu's. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion, but I am not insulting Sikhism. I believe there are Sikhs who want to make Sikhism in it's prestige and help prevent caste discrimination, but I believe it won't happen. We must work together in order to eradicate Caste Discrimination in Sikhism. I also understand that when you are Amritshark (Baptised) you have to take Singh and Kaur which is great. Forgive me for my profanity.


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Apr 5, 2017)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Our 10 Guru's told us that the Caste System is evil, and that everyone is equal no matter what caste you came from. Yet Jatt Sikhs or those from the higher caste discriminate those who are from the lower castes such as the Mazhabi, Chamar, and Ad-Dharmi. Even though Sikhism prohibits the Caste System there is still discriminate. I am a Jatt Sikh myself, but I am disgusted towards my own people, and I am sick and tired of those who want to promote caste system. They will destroy Sikhism, and it will ruin the values. In every Gurdwara I go to I see a Caste name beside it. For example, the Gurdwara I currently go to is called Ramgarhia GurSikh Society, and it has the name "Ramgarhia" which is the Tarkhan caste. Hell, these Gurdwara's are the exact same as the Hindu Mandir's they don't even allow the lower case Sikhs to come in. The discriminate has been so bad that the lower caste sikhs made their own religion Ravidassia I support them. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion because we still follow the damn caste system even though our 10 guru's opposed it. I am tired of the discriminate our fellow Sikhs have to face because of their caste. Also, most Sikhs here have a last name which is connected to our caste even though Guru Gobind Singh Ji created Singh and Kaur so every Sikh will be equal. However, we all have different last names that connect to our caste for example, Gill, Dhillion, Bhogal, Bedi, and Shergill. They both have last names related to caste. We also have marriages only inside our caste, my mother even tells me I have to marry a Jatt girl which is rubbish. I just think we are a bunch of Keshdari Hindu's. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion, but I am not insulting Sikhism. I believe there are Sikhs who want to make Sikhism in it's prestige and help prevent caste discrimination, but I believe it won't happen. We must work together in order to eradicate Caste Discrimination in Sikhism. I also understand that when you are Amritshark (Baptised) you have to take Singh and Kaur which is great. Forgive me for my profanity.



This is a misnomer that Jatt Sikhs ever discriminate other Sikhs. In fact it is other way round. Jatt Sikhs are being discriminated so much that they have been made paupers and forced to do suicides; their wards are forced to leave country because they have no jobs; since almost all jobs go to so called lower castes and these poor Jatt Sikhs do not  any. They want to be equated with SCs/STs in allotment of jobs quotas. but there is no one to listen to them. Sikh society is based on equality; it is high time that all people are equated on the principles set by the Gurus.


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## RD1 (Apr 5, 2017)

Jasdeep118 said:


> I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion



What religion out there is not a "failed religion?"


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 5, 2017)

Castes you say? Sikhism has no castes. Most importantly YOU do not have a caste. 

Easiest way to circumvent the whole caste thing? Do what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, and use only Singh as last name and do not use caste name. Change your ID to simply Singh and if anyone asks what caste your background is you simply tell them it's none of their business and that Sikhi doesn't believe in Castes. Have your children registered only as Kaur or Singh. Be the change you want to see!!


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 6, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> This is a misnomer that Jatt Sikhs ever discriminate other Sikhs. In fact it is other way round. Jatt Sikhs are being discriminated so much that they have been made paupers and forced to do suicides; their wards are forced to leave country because they have no jobs; since almost all jobs go to so called lower castes and these poor Jatt Sikhs do not  any. They want to be equated with SCs/STs in allotment of jobs quotas. but there is no one to listen to them. Sikh society is based on equality; it is high time that all people are equated on the principles set by the Gurus.


Same with the Mazhabi and Chamar sikhs they have been discriminated so bad that they even made their own religion, Ravidassia religion - Wikipedia the Ravidassia religion. They used to have the Guru Granth in their temples, but they removed it after the shootings of their priest by extermists. Ramanand Dass - Wikipedia.


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 6, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Castes you say? Sikhism has no castes. Most importantly YOU do not have a caste.
> 
> Easiest way to circumvent the whole caste thing? Do what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, and use only Singh as last name and do not use caste name. Change your ID to simply Singh and if anyone asks what caste your background is you simply tell them it's none of their business and that Sikhi doesn't believe in Castes. Have your children registered only as Kaur or Singh. Be the change you want to see!!


I totally agree with you, but its kind of hard. There are families that care about caste, and when you get married they want to know your own caste. Even my mother wants me to be married to a Jatt. I am just concerned about how Sikhi has changed, and how we discriminate to our own fellow Sikhs because they are different. It is sad how lower caste Sikhs joined the Sikh religion so they can be equal be discriminated by their fellows.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 6, 2017)

There is no such term as "lower caste Sikhs". And they are not different. ALL humans carry the divine light equally. To deny that is to deny Waheguru. 
There are only Sikhs and none are better than others. How should I feel being a convert for example? Should I consider myself to be an untouchable since Indont have a 'caste'? How should my Mother in Law look at me as? My husbands family welcomed me with open arms as they just wanted my husband to be happy. And they (Amritdhari) accepted me because I am genuinely following Sikhi of my own and because I wanted to take Amrit. 

If you like a girl you want to marry just have her change her name to Kaur and tell your parents whatever they want to hear. Or take Amrit, and marry an Amritdhari girl who's family will 'never tell' (like my husband's). 



Jasdeep118 said:


> I totally agree with you, but its kind of hard. There are families that care about caste, and when you get married they want to know your own caste. Even my mother wants me to be married to a Jatt. I am just concerned about how Sikhi has changed, and how we discriminate to our own fellow Sikhs because they are different. It is sad how lower caste Sikhs joined the Sikh religion so they can be equal be discriminated by their fellows.


herebis


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## Original (Apr 10, 2017)

Jasdeep118 said:


> . I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion



...wow...that's a strong statement ! what are you basing it on ? surely not the caste system because all forms of social organisations have an intrinsic mechanisms that divides them. In some societies it is called "class" and in others, caste. This is more commonly referred to as social stratification.

Granted, caste based discrimination exists, but it's insufficient to deem it a religious failure simply because some of it is dysfunctional.

Essentially, religions are choreographers of spiritual moments. Intrinsically they're functional, how can objective analysis be had to deem Sikhism a failure ? What criteria, formula or indeed a yardstick did you employ to arrive at such a conclusion ?

Much obliged !


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## Kully (Apr 13, 2017)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Even my mother wants me to be married to a Jatt.



Jasdeep, elders have been brought up with this caste nonsense so please don't be too hard on your mother. It is very hard to change the mentality of the elders. 




Jasdeep118 said:


> and how we discriminate to our own fellow Sikhs because they are different.



You, it is apparent have chosen not to discriminate, and that is excellent news. You will pass on those same values to your children and slowly but surely there will be a change.


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 14, 2017)

Original said:


> ...wow...that's a strong statement ! what are you basing it on ? surely not the caste system because all forms of social organisations have an intrinsic mechanisms that divides them. In some societies it is called "class" and in others, caste. This is more commonly referred to as social stratification.
> 
> Granted, caste based discrimination exists, but it's insufficient to deem it a religious failure simply because some of it is dysfunctional.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to insult Sikhism, I guess I want a little too far with my rant. Please forgive me for insulting you and our faith. I know for sure that not every Sikh has a caste name, and I know there are many that only have Singh or Kaur, and that they don't follow the caste system. As you see, I am 14 years old and in my classroom there is a girl, and a bunch of other girls that like to make Chamar based jokes such as Bunder Di Chamara and such. I get angry since they are Sikhs themselves, yet they mock and discriminate against lower Sikhs, and sometimes I see that they call darker skin sikhs "Chamars", and such. That is why I want to bring this topic to this forum. Then I remembered that this girl got into an argument saying that she was part of the Dhillion Clan and that she was superior than anyone else. I am saying that most Sikh Youth have ego's, but not ALL Sikhs. JaatPaat is a dangerous, and we must eradicate it.


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 14, 2017)

I am just saying that JaatPaat is a disease that is affecting Sikhism. Now we have Gurdwara's that are based on with caste. Such as Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Jattan Gurdwara and such. The Mazhabi and the Dalit's have their own gurdwara's and cremation grounds because they are considered to be lower. This type of discriminate has happened abroad too. Hell, the Gurdwara I go to is called Ramgaria GurSikh Society. Even the Gurdwara Committee or Councils are judged by faith, and even our marriages are arranged with caste too.  If you marry with someone who has a different caste you are either going to be found dead in a ditch or be disowned by your family. My intentions were not to insult our beautiful Sikh faith, but to help spread awareness about JaatPaat. I just want us to follow the proper teachings of the Gurdwara, and consider our brethren as equals, and to be judged on by caste. Here is one more thing, in my city there is two Gurdwara's. One is called Gurdwara Singh Sabha, and the other is called Ramgharia GurSikh Society. The reason why it was called Ramgharia Gurdwara because at the time of its founding there was clashes between Jatt and Tarkhan Sikhs because the Jatts didn't want to allow the Tarkhan's in the committee. So, the Jatt's made their own Gurdwara because of this conflict. I just want to tell this story because I want to show this as an example of JaatPaat.


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## Original (Apr 14, 2017)

....at 14 you're studying sociology, not quite the age if you ask me ! This is the time when puberty is probably rife and the transition amazing. Gaze it good and develop naturally beautiful without abstract thinking. Too young to be talking about social divisions.


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 14, 2017)

Original said:


> ....at 14 you're studying sociology, not quite the age if you ask me ! This is the time when puberty is probably rife and the transition amazing. Gaze it good and develop naturally beautiful without abstract thinking. Too young to be talking about social divisions.


Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.


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## Original (Apr 14, 2017)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.


...well, there is nothing wrong with "looking" at disciplines for educational purposes, but there is I think, a prerequisite for debating, discussing the same and that is, knowledge. Have you the knowledge of the origin of the caste system in India ? If not, then perhaps it might add value to your learnings if you were to learn of the origins of the caste system in India. This will put you in a good stead to debate of its rightness n wrongness, don't you think ? I mean, I studied the caste system as an elective when I was an undergraduate studying Law. This was to help me address the international community of its horrific connotations and legislate effective measures to protect the disadvantaged from discrimination. 

Good bye and good luck !


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## RD1 (Apr 14, 2017)

Original said:


> ....at 14 you're studying sociology, not quite the age if you ask me ! This is the time when puberty is probably rife and the transition amazing. Gaze it good and develop naturally beautiful without abstract thinking. Too young to be talking about social divisions.





Jasdeep118 said:


> Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.



The fact that you're 14 and are contemplating and reflecting on such topics is actually quite impressive!


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## RD1 (Apr 14, 2017)

There is discrimination and classism is various cultures and societies. Sikh teachings are certainly against this. But that will not prevent people from acting otherwise - either because they do not understand/are not actually aware of Sikh teachings, or they don't care. The best that we can do is firstly not be like that ourselves, and secondly stand against any form of discrimination.

It is shameful that gurdwaras have been divided by castes. There is an incredible amount of ignorance regarding Sikh teachings. At least we are all here on SPN to continue to learn, and hopefully better ourselves. 

Is Sikhism a failed religion? The teachings themselves will always be pure and true. Its human interpretation and behaviour which distort that truth.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 15, 2017)

I pray for the day we will see Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wish for Sikhi come true... elimination of ALL forms of social class and status. Not just caste but gender discrimination also which is rife in especially the youth these days. (Just search online and you won't have to go far before you see Singh's saying Kaurs were ever meant to have Amrit, never meant to have leadership roles in Sikhi, should not be able to have equal status with Singh's with regards to seva as Panj Pyaras, even suggestions that wives are subordinate to husbands and that the wife follows in lavaans to show this subordinate place - and yes even brahminical idea of women and sootak has made its way in there too keeping women from seva of SGGSJ in certain times). Why do I bring these up in a caste thread? Because they are intimately related. In caste system women were lower than even the lowest caste males, regardless of their caste. A woman was told her only hope was to serve men for this life (and likely another 6) before hoping to be born as even a low caste male. 

Social divisions and statuses are a bane of human race and all ethnicities and cultures have not been able to get rid of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saw differently that ALL humans were equal and carried the same divine light equally. It's us who can't see past statuses. But you can't take your status with you when you die. Like the story of the King who dreamt he was a popper and had lost his kingdom. What he doesn't realize is it was never his to begin with. I always say be the change you want to see so speak openly about caste and how it goes against Gurbani and what our Gurus wanted. 

Nobody said speaking up is easy. I have done so and gotten banned on several other forums for speaking for equality for Kaurs. Yes banned... because I spoke against how certain jathas are given higher status and other jathas members are called every horrible thing under the sun. (I spoke directly against how AKJ was called Pakhand Kirtan Jatha, without moderators saying anything yet a much more benign comment about another group was moderated and deleted simply because of who that jatha was). This is just as bad as casteism I think. Jatha-ism should we call it??? Why can't we just consider every Sikh as equal?? 
Banned because I spoke openly about Kaurs having equality in Sikhi, and spoke against the horrible things being said about Kaur's place in Sikhi.

 If you truly are against caste divisions in Sikhi then as the current youth YOU have an opportunity to stand up for what is right. And recruit others to the cause. Start a petition and submit to Akal takht to stop this caste divisions in Sikhi as all Gurdwaras are open to everyone that even includes non Sikhs! How can they discriminate supposed caste when Our Gurus denied caste all together!? Change won't happen over night and with one person. But it won't happen at all if not for one person initiating that change!


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## Harry (Apr 15, 2017)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.



and you crack right on, the more people that question and outline, the better, your age is irrelevant, it is about maturity and life experience,


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## Sikhilove (Apr 16, 2017)

RD1 said:


> The fact that you're 14 and are contemplating and reflecting on such topics is actually quite impressive!



Jasdeep 118, You sound abit like me when i was 14. Age doesn't matter, wisdom can be seen at any age, and you showed it in your first post.

This issue is due to Punjabi Brown culture, it has nothing to do with Truth (Sat).

All you can do is teach, don't get angry about it, accept that people can be ignorant and teach them.

Whether they listen or not is up to them. We are here to live and teach (serve), not force people to change. Punjabis can be racist.

My mum used to tell me that if I didn't marry a Jatt, she would disown me.

Years later, now she tells me that caste doesn't matter, because I taught her that racism is wrong and she listened


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## Sikhilove (Apr 16, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> I pray for the day we will see Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wish for Sikhi come true... elimination of ALL forms of social class and status. Not just caste but gender discrimination also which is rife in especially the youth these days. (Just search online and you won't have to go far before you see Singh's saying Kaurs were ever meant to have Amrit, never meant to have leadership roles in Sikhi, should not be able to have equal status with Singh's with regards to seva as Panj Pyaras, even suggestions that wives are subordinate to husbands and that the wife follows in lavaans to show this subordinate place - and yes even brahminical idea of women and sootak has made its way in there too keeping women from seva of SGGSJ in certain times). Why do I bring these up in a caste thread? Because they are intimately related. In caste system women were lower than even the lowest caste males, regardless of their caste. A woman was told her only hope was to serve men for this life (and likely another 6) before hoping to be born as even a low caste male.
> 
> Social divisions and statuses are a bane of human race and all ethnicities and cultures have not been able to get rid of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saw differently that ALL humans were equal and carried the same divine light equally. It's us who can't see past statuses. But you can't take your status with you when you die. Like the story of the King who dreamt he was a popper and had lost his kingdom. What he doesn't realize is it was never his to begin with. I always say be the change you want to see so speak openly about caste and how it goes against Gurbani and what our Gurus wanted.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if youve noticed, but the heads of basically all religious institutions Akal Takht included have become corrupted.

Satguru Ji speaks of times like these in Dasam Granth Ji. Your typical Panj Pyaare are very likely no saints, i wouldnt epitomize or trust many people or organisations right now.


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## RD1 (Apr 16, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> I'm not sure if youve noticed, but the heads of basically all religious institutions Akal Takht included have become corrupted.



Hence, a previous comment I made - What religion out there is not a "failed religion?"
Corruption has seeped in everywhere. Religion is twisted and used for one's self-interest - to actually promote fear, hate, and division, rather than love and tolerance.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 17, 2017)

Sure there are problems in Akal Takht etc but there could be a lot worse! Can you imagine what will happen if one of the groups who hates Sikh Reget Maryada gets in power? How much that will divide Sikhi???


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## Sikhilove (Apr 17, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> I'm not sure if youve noticed, but the heads of basically all religious institutions Akal Takht included have become corrupted.
> 
> Satguru Ji speaks of times like these in Dasam Granth Ji. Your typical Panj Pyaare are very likely no saints, i wouldnt epitomize many people right now.





RD1 said:


> Hence, a previous comment I made - What religion out there is not a "failed religion?"
> Corruption has seeped in everywhere. Religion is twisted and used for one's self-interest - to actually promote fear, hate, and division, rather than love and tolerance.



Hence the First Masters teaching, that there is No Hindu No Muslim.


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## Sikhilove (Apr 17, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Sure there are problems in Akal Takht etc but there could be a lot worse! Can you imagine what will happen if one of the groups who hates Sikh Reget Maryada gets in power? How much that will divide Sikhi???



Sikhi is the path of Truth. Other past teachers have also taught Truth. Its not a Sect, and its not exclusive to the earth realm. Its a path to eternity and the practice of freedom and Balance.

Humans Group together in attachment to each other when the Masters taught that attachment is a vice. They fight and argue all under the guise of religion instead of living how they should.

When institutions the Masters set up become corrupted and unrecognisable from how they were originally, theyre no longer valid and should be disregarded, live how they wanted you to live.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Apr 17, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Religion is twisted and used for one's self-interest



Religion is there for self-improvement but now it is used against others in self-interests. The self (or haumae) manipulates everything from light to dark side.


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## sukhsingh (Apr 17, 2017)

I think the problem is that Sikhism has become or at least the dominant thread of it is transforming in to organised and institutionalized religion when guru nanaks message clearly opposed hierarchical structures with a intellectual /priesthood /politicized identity. It was pluralistic at it's very heart.. I think the conflation of the Sikh  identity with that of khalsa panth and the trend since Singh sabha movement for them to be one and the same has as a unintentional consequence undermined the plurality and enable social hierarchies to become culturally embedded


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## RD1 (Apr 17, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I think the problem is that Sikhism has become or at least the dominant thread of it is transforming in to organised and institutionalized religion when guru nanaks message clearly opposed hierarchical structures with a intellectual /priesthood /politicized identity. It was pluralistic at it's very heart.. I think the conflation of the Sikh identity with that of khalsa panth and the trend since Singh sabha movement for them to be one and the same has as a unintentional consequence undermined the plurality and enable social hierarchies to become culturally embedded



Hierarchies result in divisions and separating people, creating power imbalances, and essentially discrimination and oppression - whether by caste, gender, race, etc. Every aspect of out existence is hierarchical -  from politics, to the work place, to our homes. Are we humans incapable of living without hierarchy?  

A part of Sikhism is organized/institutionalized with the Khalsa. However,  I would say that Sikhism does not have as many strict "rules and regulations" as other religions. It is quite open, and not simply a religion, but a way of life. And still, it was also made clear by our gurus that Waheguru is the only Master. All humans are equally below the One.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 18, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Are we humans incapable of living without hierarchy?
> .



The ones in power don't want to lose that power over others. That includes government over the people, higher caste over the lower castes, males over females etc.  I'm quite sure those in the lower positions would love to see heirarchy die.


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## RD1 (Apr 18, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> The ones in power don't want to lose that power over others. That includes government over the people, higher caste over the lower castes, males over females etc. I'm quite sure those in the lower positions would love to see heirarchy die.



Agreed. However, it seems that throughout all of humankind, societies have always organized themselves around hierarchies. There are those who constantly seek power, and others who give away their power. Some people just seem to want to bow down to someone.....like how so many people basically worship the British crown - despite their extremely violent and intolerant history/legacy. 

Perhaps hierarchies only truly become dangerous when the ones on top start to abuse their power and influence - which seems to be the case today when it comes to governments and wealthy corporations, in particular.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 18, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Agreed. However, it seems that throughout all of humankind, societies have always organized themselves around hierarchies. There are those who constantly seek power, and others who give away their power. Some people just seem to want to bow down to someone.....like how so many people basically worship the British crown - despite their extremely violent and intolerant history/legacy.
> 
> Perhaps hierarchies only truly become dangerous when the ones on top start to abuse their power and influence - which seems to be the case today when it comes to governments and wealthy corporations, in particular.



When said hierarchies are temporary and elected by the people then I have no issues. Society needs governance. 

But on personal level is where I have problems with it. Lower caste stuck in the lower position from both to death and through no desire of their own. Why is someone higher than someone just because of what body / family they happened to be born in? They aren't according to Gurbani which says every human is equal and that we are to see that in everyone. Even worse how can Gurdwaras pop up for only certain castes like Ramgharia Gurdwaras I have seen?? Gurdwaras are open to everyone even nonSikhs!

Same with 'traditional' ideals for family and women's place. Even in sikhi we see women forced into subordinate role beneath their husbands who are 'head' (or even 'God' in some Rehet maryadas) of their family. There are countless 'Singhs' out there who believe the reason why the male leads in the lavaans is to demonstrate how he will 'lead' and his wife will 'follow' (aka be obedient) in the marriage. (They obviously don't get the metaphor and what's being passed during the lavaans has nothing to do with physical marriage but instead our souls relation to Waheguru as husband Lord) but I digress... husband and wife are equal halves to one whole and have equal say in their marriage as two consenting adults. A party of two doesn't need a perpetual leader and a perpetual follower... that would be a master / servant relationship. Some of those Singh's even say that a wife's 'dharam' is to serve her husband while he never has to serve his wife in this life. That suggests being born female is a punishment for past Karams? While being born male is a reward?? Is this what our Gurus taught???


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## sukhsingh (Apr 18, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Agreed. However, it seems that throughout all of humankind, societies have always organized themselves around hierarchies. There are those who constantly seek power, and others who give away their power. Some people just seem to want to bow down to someone.....like how so many people basically worship the British crown - despite their extremely violent and intolerant history/legacy.
> 
> Perhaps hierarchies only truly become dangerous when the ones on top start to abuse their power and influence - which seems to be the case today when it comes to governments and wealthy corporations, in particular.


All hierarchical structures are based on power and hence open to abuse. 
I have always seen guru gobind Singh jis submission to the panj pyare a demonstration of how even guru was not beyond rapprochement


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## Sikhilove (Apr 19, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Hierarchies result in divisions and separating people, creating power imbalances, and essentially discrimination and oppression - whether by caste, gender, race, etc. Every aspect of out existence is hierarchical -  from politics, to the work place, to our homes. Are we humans incapable of living without hierarchy?
> 
> A part of Sikhism is organized/institutionalized with the Khalsa. However,  I would say that Sikhism does not have as many strict "rules and regulations" as other religions. It is quite open, and not simply a religion, but a way of life. And still, it was also made clear by our gurus that Waheguru is the only Master. All humans are equally below the One.



The difference between authority of the Gurus and that of mayadharis is that Gurus put their heads at the feet of all. 

This is rare. 

Many have forgotten that the prerequisite of spirituality is losing your head.


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## sukhsingh (Apr 19, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> The difference between authority of the Gurus and that of mayadharis is that Gurus put their heads at the feet of all.
> 
> This is rare.
> 
> Many have forgotten that the prerequisite of spirituality is losing your head.


Humility


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 20, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> I pray for the day we will see Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wish for Sikhi come true... elimination of ALL forms of social class and status. Not just caste but gender discrimination also which is rife in especially the youth these days. (Just search online and you won't have to go far before you see Singh's saying Kaurs were ever meant to have Amrit, never meant to have leadership roles in Sikhi, should not be able to have equal status with Singh's with regards to seva as Panj Pyaras, even suggestions that wives are subordinate to husbands and that the wife follows in lavaans to show this subordinate place - and yes even brahminical idea of women and sootak has made its way in there too keeping women from seva of SGGSJ in certain times). Why do I bring these up in a caste thread? Because they are intimately related. In caste system women were lower than even the lowest caste males, regardless of their caste. A woman was told her only hope was to serve men for this life (and likely another 6) before hoping to be born as even a low caste male.
> 
> Social divisions and statuses are a bane of human race and all ethnicities and cultures have not been able to get rid of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saw differently that ALL humans were equal and carried the same divine light equally. It's us who can't see past statuses. But you can't take your status with you when you die. Like the story of the King who dreamt he was a popper and had lost his kingdom. What he doesn't realize is it was never his to begin with. I always say be the change you want to see so speak openly about caste and how it goes against Gurbani and what our Gurus wanted.
> 
> ...


I agree with you too, I hope that in the future that we will seee Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wish come true, and that there would be no caste, but only equal human beings.
 Our only hope is that our hope will carry the torch of Sikhi, and will help cleanse it of its vices


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Apr 16, 2018)

The question is not "why is there discrimination  against lower caste Sikhs?" The question is "why are there lower caste Sikhs?" Caste has absolutely no place in Sikhi and its presence is the strongest argument that the Hinduizers have that Sikhi is not a separate religion, but merely a branch of Hinduism. All the human Gurus preached strongly against caste. Guru Gobind Singh ji even instituted a new naming system amongst the Khalsa to help with the abolishing of caste. Why this scourge is still practiced amongst Sikhs is beyond me. Isnt it time we grow up and leave this ancient, outdated, childish concept in the past where it belongs?


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## Truthsikher31 (Apr 19, 2018)

Not sure how to properly say this, maybe you guys can correct me.  I get that there should be no castes, I agree with it and really wished elder generations would have had similar thinking.  Jatts marry only Jatts, Saini to Saini, etc.  My family did the same with me, they found a Saini girl.  To be honest that had nothing do with my decision on whether I liked that person or not.  Just solely based on their character.  But the idea that we all should only have Singhs and Kaurs as last names.  I guess it was good idea back in the 1500s, but remember the Sikh population was probably in the 10s to 100s of thousands (I could be way off), BUT now you have MILLIONS of Sikhs.  Just from a sensus perspective, can you imagine how many people would have similar names.  Jasmeet, Jaspreet, Jasdeep, etc. and that's just a tip of the letter "J".  I'm not trying to change anything here on last names, I think the idea behind it was very unifying.  I'm just saying would it still be practical today, and could we not use Singh/Kaur like middle names (as most do) and still do away with castes.  To me having a last name other than Singh, gives my family an identity.  Singh may help in identifying me as a Sikh, but my last name gives my family an identity.  Not sure if that makes sense.


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## Truthsikher31 (Apr 19, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Jasdeep 118, You sound abit like me when i was 14. Age doesn't matter, wisdom can be seen at any age, and you showed it in your first post.
> 
> This issue is due to Punjabi Brown culture, it has nothing to do with Truth (Sat).
> 
> ...



Totally agree, the Punjabi culture has a lot of influence.  Older generations where brought up where questioning ones parents or elders would give you a nice beating.  But with each generation, changes will come slowly.  And it starts with each of us.  If we believe this is wrong, chances are we will pass that passion and knowledge to our kids.  My wife, who if had married and lived in India, would probably be typical by the book, listen to your parents, no questioning or thinking outside the box type of person.  But since being in the US for the last 12 years, she's experience kind of a whole new world.  She's met and friended people of different religions/backgrounds, sexuality, family status.  Most of my family (cousins, massi's, mama's etc.) wont admit it, but probably unknowingly been practicing a caste system.  If you're aware of it and can change your family going forward, and make it better, than that's awesome.


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## sukhsingh (Apr 19, 2018)

A


Jasdeep118 said:


> Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.


All power to you for enquiring. . Khoj is a beautiful journey and you are right at the beginning of your quest!


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## Jasdeep118 (Apr 26, 2018)

Truthsikher31 said:


> Totally agree, the Punjabi culture has a lot of influence.  Older generations where brought up where questioning ones parents or elders would give you a nice beating.  But with each generation, changes will come slowly.  And it starts with each of us.  If we believe this is wrong, chances are we will pass that passion and knowledge to our kids.  My wife, who if had married and lived in India, would probably be typical by the book, listen to your parents, no questioning or thinking outside the box type of person.  But since being in the US for the last 12 years, she's experience kind of a whole new world.  She's met and friended people of different religions/backgrounds, sexuality, family status.  Most of my family (cousins, massi's, mama's etc.) wont admit it, but probably unknowingly been practicing a caste system.  If you're aware of it and can change your family going forward, and make it better, than that's awesome.



Maya work's in mysterious ways. I know a lot of Sikhs that are affected by ahankar (*conceit*) ego or pride in one caste. Let me tell you Punjabi Music is making Ahankar, with Putt De Jattan this, Putt De Jattan that, let me tell you you don't see other people doing Putt de Mazjabian, Putt de Kambojan, etc. If there is a Putt De, we should be Putt de Sikhian. Which is why Sikhism and Culture is different, but it feels like Culture has a grasp on Sikhi. For example TruthSikher31, Guru Nanak said women are equal, yet ironically we have the highest abortion rates.


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Apr 27, 2018)

We lived in villages society where every one was chacha taya, chachi tai etc irrespective of the caste. We played together with friends from other religion and the castes which are now told low. We never new that some people are of low cast. it is only after independence that so much hue and cry is raised about caste. I Even now in the remote corner in city we find the people of all caste celebrating all functions together without caring for castes and religions., The wedge appears to be purposely being created for certain personal gains etc. and for no other reasons. Important is to live peacefully, with love for all in a common brotherhood where the point of castes does not crop up.


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## Sikhilove (May 5, 2018)

RD1 said:


> Hence, a previous comment I made - What religion out there is not a "failed religion?"
> Corruption has seeped in everywhere. Religion is twisted and used for one's self-interest - to actually promote fear, hate, and division, rather than love and tolerance.



Yeh. But Sikhi practiced in its actual true form, ie Gurbani followed 100% without twisting and corrupting it, is Truth.

Many Sikhs love to bring their Egos and Manmade rules to the forefront, failing to realize that the only way to actually become a Gurus Sikh is to deliver your head to Him on a plate and eradicate the Ego.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (May 5, 2018)

Some of us really try not to bring our egos to Sikhi but are unsuccessful in the attempt. My many attempts at ego eradication have been dismal failures. As for my following Gurbani 100%, I doubt I am able to follow it even a wee bit. I give it my best try, but see only the tiniest bit of progress.  I shall keep trying.


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## Ishna (May 5, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Yeh. But Sikhi practiced in its actual true form, ie Gurbani followed 100% without twisting and corrupting it, is Truth.
> 
> Many Sikhs love to bring their Egos and Manmade rules to the forefront, failing to realize that the only way to actually become a Gurus Sikh is to deliver your head to Him on a plate and eradicate the Ego.



This 'actual true form' of Sikh practice that you've said is Gurbani followed 100% is curious to me.  Since everyone interprets Gurbani slightly differently (it's unavoidable, we're humans each with our unique experiences), do you accept multiple true forms of Sikh practice based on interpretations of Gurbani?


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## Sikhilove (May 7, 2018)

Ishna said:


> This 'actual true form' of Sikh practice that you've said is Gurbani followed 100% is curious to me.  Since everyone interprets Gurbani slightly differently (it's unavoidable, we're humans each with our unique experiences), do you accept multiple true forms of Sikh practice based on interpretations of Gurbani?



God sits in each and every heart. Someone who's serious about the path will truly listen and understand. You have to trust, believe in and have faith in your higher self.


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## Ishna (May 10, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> God sits in each and every heart. Someone who's serious about the path will truly listen and understand. You have to trust, believe in and have faith in your higher self.



I'm struggling to understand how this addresses my question. Are you aaying that true Sikh religion per Gurbani is to trust, believe in and have faith in your higher self?


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## Sikhilove (May 10, 2018)

higher self= God/ Truth


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## Ishna (May 14, 2018)

I still don't quite understand your statement, but realise my questions are off topic so I'll let it go.


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