# Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate



## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 1, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das got this post at tapoban.org



> Author: ...
> Date: 03-29-06 06:45
> 
> Kala Afghana is a *******.
> ...


 

As Das is aware that this could be mere salnder about Kala Afghana Sahib and its authanticity has to be verfied and das request that someone in Canada must verify if it is true or not.

Das is saying that let it be false(whole report above) or say let the judgement be wrong that Kala Afghana Sahib are innocent.

But in both cases das is saying that he must know that what Guru wrote about Triya Charitar is actualy happening to him and yet he does not agree to Guru when Guru is leting him expirance the same thing in his(Afghana Sahib's) personal life the same.


***Please watch for swear words when posting from other sites*****


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## Singhstah (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

i wonder what plamba has to say


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## drkhalsa (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Plamba ji 

Is on visit to india , I would love to hear from him


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## Randip Singh (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Taboban is a Sant Mat site. I am not a fan of Afghana, but I would not belive the nonsense at Tapoban for one second.


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## Inder singh (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<<Taboban is a Sant Mat site. I am not a fan of Afghana, but I would not belive the nonsense at Tapoban for one second.>>>

Response
This is 100 percent correct.It is court order.What is there not believe in this.?
Not only that he was tried and jailed in India while a sub inspector of police for stealing car engines.It was in Punjab Monitor Magazine.He was taken to Canada by making him to jump bail and planted to mislead sikhs.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 14, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> <<<<Taboban is a Sant Mat site. I am not a fan of Afghana, but I would not belive the nonsense at Tapoban for one second.>>>
> 
> Response
> This is 100 percent correct.It is court order.What is there not believe in this.?
> Not only that he was tried and jailed in India while a sub inspector of police for stealing car engines.It was in Punjab Monitor Magazine.He was taken to Canada by making him to jump bail and planted to mislead sikhs.


 
If its 100% correct lets see evidence, and not hearsay from a 3rd Party site. I want to see links to the actual news article.


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## Inder singh (Feb 14, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Randip singh
It is  a court judgement.  There was nothing to disbelieve it.Here is the link

Yahoo! Groups


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## Inder singh (Feb 14, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<If its 100% correct lets see evidence, and not hearsay from a 3rd Party site. I want to see links to the actual news article.>>>

See this

Yahoo! Groups


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## Randip Singh (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> <<<If its 100% correct lets see evidence, and not hearsay from a 3rd Party site. I want to see links to the actual news article.>>>
> 
> See this
> 
> Yahoo! Groups



Again a third Party site which I cannot acces.

Please link news articles from a reputable source.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Maybe he had just finished reading some tria chariters and tried to put one in practice or the tria pulled a chariter on him and fooled him. Either way, tria chariters didn't help Kala Afgana. Once again Tria Chariters have proven to be damaging to the Khalsa Panth.


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## Inder singh (Feb 24, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

There is no composition tria sharitra in Dasam Granth.It is academic dishonesty to name Charitropakhayan as tria charitra.Pakhyan means stories that have been already written.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 24, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> I really do not know why you could not asses.This site has the largest number of sikh participants among sikh sites.It is learning-zone.



Have  you a link to the actual case?

In the UK we have records of cases.


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## Inder singh (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Randip singh

I do not understadn what you are trying to say.Why will a court order will be put on the internet?
It has been put by a panth dardi singh.The name of Advocate of the lady is given along email.Please email him to know the truth.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> Randip singh
> 
> I do not understadn what you are trying to say.Why will a court order will be put on the internet?
> It has been put by a panth dardi singh.The name of Advocate of the lady is given along email.Please email him to know the truth.


 
Ok.

The reason why I am suspicious is that I have read and seen far too much slandering, forged, dishonest material on the internet, I have even seen a documentary on a person on yOutube which is doctored........... so therefore before ANYONE posts articles so diflamitary as this it is my duty as a moderator to ensure that it is from an honest dource.

I have no intention of e-mailing advcates, the oness ahould be on people who posted this to find out the truth.

PS On a side note isn't Kala Afgana just a nickname for this fellow. His real name is something else yet in the case they use his nickname?


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## Archived_Member1 (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> PS On a side note isn't Kala Afgana just a nickname for this fellow. His real name is something else yet in the case they use his nickname?




in the original post his nickname is used to describe him, but his proper name is used in the  court info.


 Khalsa v. Bhullar 

Between 
* Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa*, Plaintiff, and 
Taranjit Kaur Bhullar, Hariner Singh Bhullar, Gurnham Singh 
Bajwa and Kahar Singh Pannu, Defendants 

[1992] B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No. 89/1983 British Columbia Supreme Court Victoria, British Columbia


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## Inder singh (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

His name is Gurbakhash singh.This happened in Victoria BC.This is a court judgement and hence chances of manipulation is not possible.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> His name is Gurbakhash singh.This happened in Victoria BC.This is a court judgement and hence chances of manipulation is not possible.


 
did he serve any time ? or pay a fine ?
Evidence of those as well should be posted.

BTW since he is "excommunicated" can anyone remove his "Singh" or his Sikhi from him ?? I have seen some pro dgs call him sinh..as if the excommunication transformed him into a hindu !! what a joke ??
and his books are even more popular than ever...his website has a lot of strikes inspite of all this. But no one has effectivley ANSWERED his questions with Gurbani from SGGS - not the jathedars and not the detractors.
The best answer to his ...... is the Correct Gurbani based answers. Mere allegations remain unconvincing..and court judgements ?? well the Air India Kaneshka judgement is IN...but do the victims and their famailies accept it as correct and final ??...simply because the judges and lawyers are not GOD. Cases and evidence can be fixed and has been fixed before..so all this is just hot air...or not ??

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Inder singh (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Giani ji

I think you have not read the verdict.He was fined 
5,000 CAD.

Hs blasphemous writings are a separate issue.Are you sure if he wrote those books himself.He is 8th standard of old times and does not know punjabi well.He is a Urdu guy.All his life he was a policeman.Was implicated and jailed in a bribery and theft case.Jumped jail and whicked away to Canada.

Wrote ten books in a period of four years.This is a huge project needing 20 to 25 persons.It is not job of one person.

I have gone through some of his books .It has no value to a sikh.All it does is to make him a communist minded.it condemns all sikh traditions,history,gursikhs of old times and name calls our scriptures.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> Giani ji
> 
> I think you have not read the verdict.He was fined
> 5,000 CAD.
> ...


 
Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?


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## Inder singh (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>

It is not important how much he was fined or jailed.Important is his conviction.That puts him in category of sex offenders.


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## Archived_Member1 (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> But no one has effectivley ANSWERED his questions with Gurbani from SGGS - not the jathedars and not the detractors.
> The best answer to his ...... is the Correct Gurbani based answers.
> 
> Gyani jarnail Singh




check these:

Sants Vs Afgana Part 1 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)

Sants Vs Afgana Part 2 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)


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## Inder singh (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>

Response

It is not amount of fine that is determining factor.Conviction is the issue here.He is a categorised sex offender.


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## Inder singh (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>

Response

Amount of fine is not the issue here.It is conviction as a sex offender that is the issue.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> <<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>
> 
> Response
> 
> Amount of fine is not the issue here.It is conviction as a sex offender that is the issue.


 
I think whether it's a fine or custodial sentence IS important.

If someone sexually abused me I would want to see them locked up, and in the UK they are locked up and not fined.


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## Inder singh (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Randip singh

Let me tell you the background of the case.

he was calling this lady on the pretext of taeching her Gurbani meanings.One day he told her that the teeka was in his quarters.She went there.he tried to fondle her.She raised a hue and cry.He could not succeed in his designs.

The committeee took the case to police.Poilce advised Committeee that if you take this case to court your community and Gurudwara name will be tarnished.Committee and lady Bhullar agreed.

This Kala afghana was dismissed.He was a policeman.He told them since he was not going to be taken to court give him in writing that case has been cleared.The committee did that.

Now this man was a corrupt policeman.After sometime he filed a case of defamation against the lady.The judge reviewed the case.That is how he was found guilty.

I think now it is better to understand the background of the case.


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## singh is king (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> did he serve any time ? or pay a fine ?
> Evidence of those as well should be posted.
> 
> But no one has effectivley ANSWERED his questions with Gurbani from SGGS - not the jathedars and not the detractors.
> ...


 
BTW what are his questions? did he ever post on net? could anybody please post his questions on SPN? I don't think any scholar is neded to answer his questions (if exsists), onlyb a sikh is enuff.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



singh is king said:


> BTW what are his questions? did he ever post on net? could anybody please post his questions on SPN? I don't think any scholar is neded to answer his questions (if exsists), onlyb a sikh is enuff.




they're not so much questions as accusations.

he says (among other things):

Dasam Granth is not written by Guru Gobind Singh ji
Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib, and Sawyee are not banis
we should not wash our feet before entering gurdwara
there's no such thing as "amrit vela"
pittasay were not added to amrit at the first amrit sanchar
saying the approrpiate banis cannot make amrit from water... 
says Anand Karaj is brahmanic ritual

he attacks AKJ, 3HO, Damdami Taksal and other respected sikh organizations as being "agents of hinduism".

i'm sure some of his followers here can elaborate on his beliefs.


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## Admin (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

May be somebody planted that women to make a case out against him... What was the age of Afgana, when he tried to overpower the women? Just an after thought really...


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## pk70 (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> Randip singh
> 
> Let me tell you the background of the case.
> 
> ...


 

Inder Singh ji

Kala Afghana really didn’t get good marks personally ever. I wonder a person who himself voilates Gurmat, what right that person has left to preach Gurmat.
I read Mr. Ghaga too, the person claims he is just serving panth. Pity on him. Then there is Joginder Singh Spokesman who has built empire in Chandigarh on misguided sangat.  Sunday 24 Feb 2008, he published an article questioning Ravidas's purity on the basis of fabricated stories. When it was opposed, an apology was offered but a case was registered against Joginder Singh and his employee any way. Why to do that? What to establish that? What to prove? Why the guy published the article in the first place? His wife blames Badal Govt( I am not found of them either) when a warrant was issued against Joginder Singh. Amanider Singh stood right behind him? Why man? The guy heart feelings of Bhagat Ravidas's followers and you and your party will fight for that? Shame on you. In U.S, political leaders show a  little distance if some thing is said unacceptable but in India political people take sides openly! Waheguru save India!!!! You know what? I heard from fprmer emlpyee of Spokesman that all lthses guys are in bed with each other. *Sikhs should just stay aware of these people*







DAMAGES

The counterclaim is advanced by both Bhullars against
the plaintiff for the sexual assault. It is my view
that the only one who can succeed in the counterclaim
is Mrs. Bhullar. The defendant argues as if there is a
counterclaim for defamation of character as well as
sexual assault, but in fact that is not what the
pleadings disclose. In any event, a case has not been
made out to entitle Mr. Bhullar to damages.

With respect to general damages for the sexual
assault, I have to bear in mind the gravity of the
assault, the circumstances of it, and its effect on
Mrs. Bhullar. In this case, unlike a number of others
where damages have been sought for sexual assault, the
assault is of a comparatively minor nature in the
sense that there was only the one incident, as opposed
to cases where the assault was a rape or a similar
crime of violence, or assaults on younger people, that
have often continued over a number of years. Little is
to be gained by trying to compare damages in cases
that are not similar to the case at bar, so I do not
propose to review the current authorities which are
not bountiful. What I have to deal with here is an
assault by a priest in the living quarters of a Sikh
temple upon a parishioner who was requested to attend
by the priest, who is the plaintiff. The emotional
impact of the forceful touching of the plaintiffs
chest and the attempt to take off her stockings is not
only offensive but appalling, particularly as the
priest in the Sikh religion is held in high esteem and
the utmost in decorum is expected of him. He was in a
position of trust and abused that trust. The assault
was made possible because of the respect of Mrs.
Bhullar for the plaintiff as priest and her being at
the temple at all was at his request. With respect to
the consequences or the effect on Mrs. Bhullar, there
is very little evidence before me other than her
feelings of humiliation, shock and degradation. There
do not appear to be any serious after-effects other
than distaste for the whole matter. Consequently, it
is my view that the damages should reflect the
seriousness of the assault but damages in other more
serious cases should be borne in mind to keep a
balanced perspective of damages under this head. To
some extent the impact on Mrs Bhullard is lessened, as
her success in this lawsuit vindicates her and face is
saved in a society where it is very important. By the
same token, the plaintiff is discredited and has lost
all respect and credibility in his community. I award
general damages to Mrs. Bhullar in the amount of
$5,000.00 for the sexual assault.

A claim has been advanced for punitive damages. In
this case it is my view that it is appropriate that
punitive damages be awarded. They are not awarded on
the basis of compensation but on the principle of
punishment. In this case no criminal proceedings were
launched, although the Bhullars did report the matter
to the police, who left it to the Sikh community to
sort out the matter and did not proceed with charges.
Consequently, the element of punishment of the
plaintiff for his conduct has not been addressed. In
this case punitive damages need be awarded to express
society's disapproval of the conduct of the plaintiff
as a priest in authority and trust breaching that
trust and sexually assaulting a parishioner. His
attempting, after that, to manufacture evidence and
shift the blame away from himself and his harassment
of Mrs. Bhullar is despicable. I award the sum of
$5,000.00 as punitive damages. Mrs. Bhullar will have
her costs of the counterclaim and pre-judgment
interest at the rate set by the Registrar from time to
time.

MACDONELL J.

(JUDGE)
================================================

To All: It has been confirmed that KalaAfghana is
infact convicted Sex offendar, I just got email from
Mrs. Bhullar Attorney, I am forwarding that where in
he has indicated that he was successfull in his case
against Khalsa.
What a joke we have been honoring a sex offendar in
Gurudwara's and passing him as a scholar and reformer.
Thanks,
Jagwinder Singh



From: Chris Considine QC
<cmconsidine@...>
To: JAGWINDER BANIPAL <jagwinder@...>
Subject: Re: B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No.
89/1983 Khalsa v. Bhullar
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:09:18 -0700

Dear Jagwinder Singh ,
I acted for Ms Bhullar and we were successful in the
case .I have not read the digest you sent in detail
but check with B.C.J.if you have any questions
regarding the accuracy of the reported decision .
Yours truly ,
Chris Considine


----- Original
From: JAGWINDER BANIPAL
To: cmconsidine@...
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 5:57 PM
Subject: B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No.
89/1983 Khalsa v. Bhullar


Dear Cmconisdine,

want to check the validty of the following judgement
that was passed by judge in favour of your client. Is
this email about true case.

Thanks,
> 
> jagwinder Singh[/quote]

Inder Singh ji

Kala Afghana really didnt get good marks personally ever. I wonder a person who himself voilates Gurmat, what right that person has left to preach Gurmat.
I read Mr. Ghaga too, the person claims he is just serving panth. Pity on him. Then there is Joginder Singh Spokesman who has built empire in Chandigarh on misguided sangat.  Sunday 24 Feb 2008, he published an article questioning Ravidas's purity on the basis of fabricated stories. When it was opposed, an apology was offered but a case was registered against Joginder Singh and his employee any way. Why to do that? What to establish that? What to prove? Why the guy published the article in the first place? His wife blames Badal Govt( I am not found of them either) when a warrant was issued against Joginder Singh. Amanider Singh stood right behind him? Why man? The guy heart feelings of Bhagat Ravidas's followers and you and your party will fight for that? Shame on you. In U.S, political leaders show a  little distance if some thing is said unacceptable but in India political people take sides openly! Waheguru save India!!!! You know what? I heard from fprmer emlpyee of Spokesman that all lthses guys are in bed with each other. *Sikhs should just stay aware of these people*


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## Inder singh (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Nobody planted that woman.My in-laws are from Victoria,BC.This was not the only case.he was found making notes on the pages of SGGS ji.he was warned for that.

Had the woman been planted the woman would have pursued the case in the court.


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## Phlebas (Mar 25, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Sat Sri Akal

As its my first post I would just like to thank everybody who posts for an interesting and informative forum. 

On the topic for  Kala Afghana (and indeed anyone else ..) I would urge people to ignore arguments that seek to discredit an individual rather than address the issues he raises. It is entirely possible that Kala Afghana is the devil himself but right or a saint and entirely mistaken. Why not ignore him but instead refute the arguments he makes?


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## Inder singh (Mar 25, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Sikhism lays maximum stress on one's morals.Guru ji says

Truth is high
But higher still is truthful living

How can you ignore the moral conduct of a person who himself preaches high ideals to others.


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## Phlebas (Mar 25, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Its ones of my favorite quotes because for me it encapsulates such a profound truth .. that conduct is as important as intention.  


 But I would argue that this particular piece of wisdom doesn't help us here because in most cases we don't know who has lived “most truthfully”. What do we do if both the opposing parties had lived equally good lives? What if the most one who has a better character is mistaken or doesn't have access to all the evidence?


 So it would seem to me that just going by the character of the person making the argument can lead us in to error. It is safer to look at the argument and the evidence. Would you be happy if a court of law decided on two witness just based on character rather than the evidence? If not why do so for religious issues


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## Inder singh (Mar 27, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Because religion teaches us to be truthful,compassionate,humble,giving and do service to humanity.The purpose of life is to realize God in this life and get rid of cycles of reincarnation.

Sikhs have great gursikhs who sacrificed everything for truthful life.How can a sex offender who has multiple cases of stealing and bribery in india can preach to sikhs  when he himself has low life.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> Randip singh
> 
> Let me tell you the background of the case.
> 
> ...


 
I am no fan of Kala Afghana, but what you have written has left me even more unconvinced. This whole case sounds very odd.

This case sounds like one decided on the basis of Balance of Probabilities (as civil cases are) rather than Beyond Reasonable Doubt (Criminal Cases).

PS to add even more than Kala Afgana, I am scepticle of Tapoban, and AKJ types.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Hi Jasleen,

I have made some comments. Don't take them as support for Kala Afghana, but just cold light of say analysis.



jasleen_kaur said:


> they're not so much questions as accusations.
> he says (among other things):
> Dasam Granth is not written by Guru Gobind Singh ji



Not all of it maybe. Some maybe written by The Tenth Masters Court Poets. Dasam Granth is not one continuous work, but a collection of works salvaged from the sacking of Anandpur Sahib.

Nevertheless great works are contained within Dasam Grath ji.



jasleen_kaur said:


> Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib, and Sawyee are not banis



This has not only been raised by him but other people in the Sikh fraternity.



jasleen_kaur said:


> we should not wash our feet before entering gurdwara



I don't have a problem with this in the west, but in dusty hot climates it maybe essential to stop the Gurudwara becoming dirty. Washing feet for the sake of it has become a ritual. For example I shower twice a day, change my socks and am very clean. I do not see the need to wash my feet when going to the Gurudwara.



jasleen_kaur said:


> there's no such thing as "amrit vela"



When did Amrit Vela arise? Who created the concept of Amrit Vela? Was it the Guru's or did it come much later?



jasleen_kaur said:


> pittasay were not added to amrit at the first amrit sanchar



If they were or they were not is not really a problem.



jasleen_kaur said:


> saying the approrpiate banis cannot make amrit from water...



One must understand the concept of Amrit to analyse this. Does Amrit need Bani to make it Amrit? 



jasleen_kaur said:


> says Anand Karaj is brahmanic ritual



Aspects of it are still based on the Brahmanical concepts of circumnavigating a fire, which has been replaced by a copy of Bani. I would need to understand the concept behind what he meant.



jasleen_kaur said:


> he attacks AKJ, 3HO, Damdami Taksal and other respected sikh organizations as being "agents of hinduism".



Actually these organisation *do* heavily have Vashnavite leanings. If you look into their history you will see that. I have no problem in criticising these and other Sikh organisations.



jasleen_kaur said:


> i'm sure some of his followers here can elaborate on his beliefs.



I'm not a follower of him but I am sceptical of organisations like 3HO, DDT, AKJ and GnSSJ.​


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

And Sirdar Gurbaksh Singh Ji is not "preaching" anything.... he is questioning rituals and beleifs on the touchstone of Gurbani in SGGS. He has repeatedly asked those opposing his beleifs to quote at least Five Shabads form SGGS Gurbani..so far no one has done so....but several have attacked him personally.
2. Questions have been raised as to how he could write ten books...undergraduates are writing replies upon replies as if they are scholars well versed with dsm granth which is full of brij bhasha sanskrit etc ? surely this takes decades of study ?? Dsm granth also has Persian language (hikayats).
3. Most of the Videos on a seminar are merely personal attacks and opinions - not much academic discussion/materials were presented. some are nothing more than subtle and not so subtle exhortings to violence/teach them a lesson/blah blah blah.
4 imho...this problem of dsm granth will not go away with threats - the opposing sides will have to sit down and discuss seriously and come to a compromise/understanding. The more we go at it the more hardened the positions become - the pro's have begun to give expalnations as to why chiratrpakhyans are "gurbani" and hikayats are "gurbani"  ( sex education for sikhs !!) and the opposite side have begun to  throw doubts on Benti chaupaee etc...all this is NOT GOOD.

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Randip Singh (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> And Sirdar Gurbaksh Singh Ji is not "preaching" anything.... he is questioning rituals and beleifs on the touchstone of Gurbani in SGGS. He has repeatedly asked those opposing his beleifs to quote at least Five Shabads form SGGS Gurbani..so far no one has done so....but several have attacked him personally.
> 2. Questions have been raised as to how he could write ten books...undergraduates are writing replies upon replies as if they are scholars well versed with dsm granth which is full of brij bhasha sanskrit etc ? surely this takes decades of study ?? Dsm granth also has Persian language (hikayats).
> 3. Most of the Videos on a seminar are merely personal attacks and opinions - not much academic discussion/materials were presented. some are nothing more than subtle and not so subtle exhortings to violence/teach them a lesson/blah blah blah.
> 4 imho...this problem of dsm granth will not go away with threats - the opposing sides will have to sit down and discuss seriously and come to a compromise/understanding. The more we go at it the more hardened the positions become - the pro's have begun to give expalnations as to why chiratrpakhyans are "gurbani" and hikayats are "gurbani" ( sex education for sikhs !!) and the opposite side have begun to throw doubts on Benti chaupaee etc...all this is NOT GOOD.
> ...


 
as always Gyani ji some excellent points.....and this is the point I have been trying to convey>>>>>"_*but several have attacked him personally"*_


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> And Sirdar Gurbaksh Singh Ji is not "preaching" anything.... he is questioning rituals and beleifs on the touchstone of Gurbani in SGGS. He has repeatedly asked those opposing his beleifs to quote at least Five Shabads form SGGS Gurbani..so far no one has done so....but several have attacked him personally.
> 2. Questions have been raised as to how he could write ten books...undergraduates are writing replies upon replies as if they are scholars well versed with dsm granth which is full of brij bhasha sanskrit etc ? surely this takes decades of study ?? Dsm granth also has Persian language (hikayats).
> 3. Most of the Videos on a seminar are merely personal attacks and opinions - not much academic discussion/materials were presented. some are nothing more than subtle and not so subtle exhortings to violence/teach them a lesson/blah blah blah.
> 4 imho...this problem of dsm granth will not go away with threats - the opposing sides will have to sit down and discuss seriously and come to a compromise/understanding. The more we go at it the more hardened the positions become - the pro's have begun to give expalnations as to why chiratrpakhyans are "gurbani" and hikayats are "gurbani"  ( sex education for sikhs !!) and the opposite side have begun to  throw doubts on Benti chaupaee etc...all this is NOT GOOD.
> ...



forgive me for asking, but i am new here...  what are you a teacher of?  gyani does mean teacher, right?

i'm not very smart, so forgive me if i'm wrong.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> Hi Jasleen,
> 
> I have made some comments. Don't take them as support for Kala Afghana, but just cold light of say analysis.
> 
> I'm not a follower of him but I am sceptical of organisations like 3HO, DDT, AKJ and GnSSJ.​



so you follow who...  guggha?  the spokesman?  some missionary organization?  they all say the same things...

they try to appeal to intellectuals with their rational sounding arguments.  heck, even i find some of those arguments convincing.  but in their quest for logic, they seem to have forgotten "faith".  i have faith in my Guru, i have faith in God.  i even have faith in the Panj Piyare who act as Guru when they distribute Amrit.   i believe in the bani of the tenth master.  i believe the vaaran of bhai Gurdas Ji.  i believe in the janam sakhis.   it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me my Guru fainted under torture (as Guggha says of Guru Arjan Sahib).  it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me that jaap sahib, chaupai sahib, sawyai, and parts of Rehras sahib are not actually gurbani.  
if we stick to "logic", how long will it be before they decide having long hair is illogical and therefore we should all cut it?  if they think the bani of the tenth master is not gurbani, how long till they dismiss the banis of the bhagats and bhatts (oh wait, they already have!).

religion and science are two separate things.  my faith in God goes beyond logic because my Guru tells me God is capable of anything, and no matter how much i try, i can never understand the full extent of God.

yes, when people say thing that are so against my faith, it's easy to begin to dislike them and all that they stand for, as well as their words.  i think that is true for many Sikhs.

sorry if i've offended anyone with this.  i'm speaking from my heart.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

YouTube - Sikh Reformer Kala Afghana | Vision TV | May 9, 2007

In his own words... after excommunication he still goes to Gurdwara.  He is saying Gurbani is a lie when he says, "Guru Nanak Dev Ji "doesn't know."

What more proof?  He is an apostate.


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## Inder singh (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Scholars like Dr Pannu and Mr Lamba are well versed in Braj bhasha and persian.Kala afghana is 8 standdard in Urdu.How could he study dsam granth to passa commentary on that.

We have two Birs anandpuri Bir and patna bir of Dasam Granth written in 18th century.How can one say that it is not authentic.Panth ahs alraedy decided and settled these controversies long time ago.See sodhak committee report of 1897.

If not satisfied come out of sikhism and form your own sect.Dasam granth is here to stay.

If you feel that he did not write anything wrong,read HUm Hindu hain by Ex RSS chief Rajinder,you will find sarcastic remarks about sikh scritures copied from there.So kala afghana is front man of Indian agencies and RSS.


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## pk70 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Inder Singh ji

Kala Afgana, Ghaga, Spokesman and others are well exposed to Sikh Sangat. Recently Spokesman called his paper Guru Nanak's paper.  They are trying desparately to divide Sikhs on any issue they come up with.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



pk70 said:


> They are trying desparately to divide Sikhs on any issue they come up with.



see, we agree on something again.    i'm not so bad, really.


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Jios,

This is complicated stuff!!! Kala Afghana appears to be neither asking questions nor preaching. He is not asking questions as in posing statements ending with a question mark ???? in hopes of getting answers. Does he really want answers? Nor does he appear to be preaching.  He does appear to be testomg deeply held beliefs, which may or may not be supportable in Bani. In other words, he may be looking for a debate (or maybe looking for a fight?). Since the list  is longer than 5 questions,  Mr. Afghana has been hard at work for a long time. And the information out there is so deeply vested in one side of the argument or the other, that objective analysis  -- what's that?

The only "list" I could find was in Wikipedia (believe it or not). Everything else was opinion. Here is the list.

*Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')*
*Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib*: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.
*Sri Amritsar Ishnan*: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.
*Washing our Feet*: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs.
*Amrit Vela*: KA states how can you call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time.
*Bhai Veer Singh Ji*: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works.
*Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji*: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).
*Amritsar Sarovar*: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||
*Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial*: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit*: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies.
*Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale*: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans).
*Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay*: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah*: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees*: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti*: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners)
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits*: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken.
*Amrit & Naam*: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad.
*Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh*: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.
*Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh*: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit.
*Charan-Amrit*: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual.
*Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji*: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)
*Panj Piaray & Amritdharis*: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.
*Anand-Karj*: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.
*Bhai Randhir Singh*: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans)
*Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others*: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
*Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar*: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.
Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice?


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## pk70 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

aad0002 ji

The person who is interested in check in the truth policy doesnt go against any one personally. He/she must support the allegations with solid proof otherwise hearsay or self declaration turns into mere slander. KA, due to his own personal problems, disqualifies himself to question others if they are Sikhs.


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

pk70 ji

You lost me. I don't even think KA's efforts were worth making. If a Sikh was completely unaware that this controversy was taking place, would it change anything in terms of that individual Sikh's personal belief, spiritual practice or genuine devotion?  Better yet, if I  agree  that every single one of KA's test questions is worth asking, why doesn't that really change my overall commitment to Sikhism? Nothing he says changes anything in a fundamental way.   What I am saying is that KA is either a crackpot who believes in himself, or he is just shooting off his mouth. And then the controversy got so hot, he couldn't back out gracefully, so he just decided to crawl out as far as he could on the tree limb. And...

Someone else should finish my thought for me here. :roll:


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## pk70 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

aad0002 ji

Actually in a way, you are right; however, I give him liberty to debate but with a proof which he lacks. Other point is, how one can question others if one is already in a mess? He attacks Bhai Randhir Singh, right? How can he justify his stand with well known congressi Joginder Singh Spokesman? They all use each other, it comes down to money, money!


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



pk70 said:


> aad0002 ji
> 
> Actually in a way, you are right; however, I give him liberty to debate but with a proof which he lacks. Other point is, how one can question others if one is already in a mess? He attacks Bhai Randhir Singh, right? How can he justify his stand with well known congressi Joginder Singh Spokesman? *They all use each other, it comes down to money, money!*





It always comes down to money. 

I have to go to bed. But this has been good conversation.


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## pk70 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



jasleen_kaur said:


> see, we agree on something again.  i'm not so bad, really.


 

Thanks Jasleen Kaur ji   You are not/was not bad ever !


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## Randip Singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



jasleen_kaur said:


> so you follow who...  guggha?  the spokesman?  some missionary organization?  they all say the same things...
> 
> they try to appeal to intellectuals with their rational sounding arguments.  heck, even i find some of those arguments convincing.  but in their quest for logic, they seem to have forgotten "faith".  i have faith in my Guru, i have faith in God.  i even have faith in the Panj Piyare who act as Guru when they distribute Amrit.   i believe in the bani of the tenth master.  i believe the vaaran of bhai Gurdas Ji.  i believe in the janam sakhis.   it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me my Guru fainted under torture (as Guggha says of Guru Arjan Sahib).  it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me that jaap sahib, chaupai sahib, sawyai, and parts of Rehras sahib are not actually gurbani.
> if we stick to "logic", how long will it be before they decide having long hair is illogical and therefore we should all cut it?  if they think the bani of the tenth master is not gurbani, how long till they dismiss the banis of the bhagats and bhatts (oh wait, they already have!).
> ...



my beliefs are that of a Sikh.  The Teachings of the 11th Master are enough for me. The teachings there are perfect. The are not potentially imperfect like that of AKJ, 3HO, GnNSJ etc.

See this is the problem with this sort of witch hunt, as soon as someone makes a comments or questions an aspect of Sikhism he/she is an apostate? It won't be long before w have Spanish Inquisitions and Sharia Law at this rate.

I urge to read history and look at the evolvement of the Sikh faith and and see how many phases its has been through.

Let me take one point. If Our Guru fainted from torture, did not Jesus die on the cross? It does not make them any lesser. They were human beings and their human bodies had all the fallibilities that humans have. They were not miracle makers, did not try and change the laws of nature. For me if our Guru did faint it would not be a problem, what is more significant is that he did not give up his faith to the last.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> Jios,
> 
> This is complicated stuff!!! Kala Afghana appears to be neither asking questions nor preaching. He is not asking questions as in posing statements ending with a question mark ???? in hopes of getting answers. Does he really want answers? Nor does he appear to be preaching. He does appear to be testomg deeply held beliefs, which may or may not be supportable in Bani. In other words, he may be looking for a debate (or maybe looking for a fight?). Since the list is longer than 5 questions, Mr. Afghana has been hard at work for a long time. And the information out there is so deeply vested in one side of the argument or the other, that objective analysis -- what's that?
> 
> The only "list" I could find was in Wikipedia (believe it or not). Everything else was opinion. Here is the list.



Interesting points here. I want to see where I agree or disagree with him here.



aad0002 said:


> *Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')*
> 
> *Bhog & Guru Granth      Sahib*: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat      according to KA.


  Why does he say this. He must have a reason? When did this ceremony come about?



aad0002 said:


> *Sri Amritsar Ishnan*:      KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as      Amrit.


  Why does he say this? Is it because the original Amrit was created by the Guru's, and is that is the presence of our 11th guru?



aad0002 said:


> *Washing our Feet*: KA      criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib      or our Gurduara Sahibs.


Are we doing this for ritual reasons or practical? If for a ritual then agree with KA.



aad0002 said:


> *Amrit Vela*: KA      states how can you call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so      many evil things happen around the world at that time.


  Hmmm. Interesting point, but relative to where that person is it is Amrit-vela, but I can see his point.



aad0002 said:


> *Bhai Veer Singh Ji*:      KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements      expresses disappointment about his works.


  What is his basis for this? What is his reason?



aad0002 said:


> *Bhai Veer Singh Ji,      Baba Sri Chand Ji*: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba      Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree"      (enemies of the Sikhs).


  I would want to see historical proof of this.



aad0002 said:


> *Amritsar**      Sarovar*: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that      partaking ishnan in Amritsar      sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do      whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh      Utray Pap Kamatai||


  I don't believe washing in Sarovar will wash away ones sins either. It is deeds and actions that will. If we start believing this we may as well rename Sikhism Islam and make it a Pilar to go and bathe in the Sarovar.



aad0002 said:


> *Baba Deep Singh Ji's      memorial*: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep      Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as      idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at      that particular place.


  He's absolutely right on this. People do worship the place and bow to his photo. It has become idol worship. I have been there and I was disgusted with people behaviour.



aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit*:      KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead      (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states      that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further      sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his      Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind      Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees"      are pure lies.


  I do not believe The Tenth Master killed the 5 beloved ones and revived them. So called eye witness accounts are unreliable (and there is only one I have heard of). This is miracle making. People have missed the whole point of what occurred at Basakhi all those years ago. All this businesses about reviving the dead is Vashnavite spin.



aad0002 said:


> *Baba Jarnail Singh      Bhindranwale*: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that      brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji      desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving      shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made      us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba      Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled.      He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all      "bhekhee" (charlatans).


  Downfall of the Panth occured in 1984 now whether Bhindranwala is responsible or the GOI or both is questionable. As a pro Bindranwala supporter back in the 80's this is very close to my heart. Bhindranwala was brave and had a very Spartan interpretation of Sikhi. He, however, lacked political acumen. It is this fact that has led to our downfall.

As for being Dakoos, we Sikhs are Dakoo's or Kings when the need arises.




aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay da Amrit      & Sweet Pittasay*: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay      were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin)      since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit      to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake      was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a      myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith.



Whether Pittasay were used or not is immaterial. This is making a mountain out of a molehill, by KA and his detractors. It is what Amrit means that is important.



aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit      & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah*: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib,      Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar.



Why does he ridicule? He must give a reason? What is this?




aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit      & 5 Banees*: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were      part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap      Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind      Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.



Well there maybe some truth as Guruji didnt consider his own compositions as worthy of being in SGGSji, such was his humility.



aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit      & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti*: KA ridicules the      concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray &      the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as      "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners)


  I don't believe they were revived from the dead since I do not belive our Guru's used any miracles whatsoever.




aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit      & Patits*: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children      cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs,      becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He      also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming      "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken.



I can kind of understand this. JUst by tking Amrit you are not necessarily a Sikh. A Sikh is one who is so through deed and action.




aad0002 said:


> *Amrit & Naam*:      KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad.



I would want see why he says this?



aad0002 said:


> *Jao Tao Premo Khellan…      & Baba Deep Singh*: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference      to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.



Why?



aad0002 said:


> *Adultery & Bhai      Randhir Singh*: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that      Adultery was allowed in the Rahit.


  I don't have much time for Bhai Randhir Singh, infact the more I have read about him the more I find him quite hypocritical (but thats my opinion), but where is his proof of this?



aad0002 said:


> *Charan-Amrit*: KA      ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until      Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic      ritual.



Charan Amrit is a Brahmanical ritual, but was replaced.



aad0002 said:


> *Panj Piaray & Guru      Gobind Singh Ji*: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted      the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)


  There are far too many incidents where Guruji bowed to the will of Panj Pyarey for this to be true. I would however, be interested in his reasoning for this.



aad0002 said:


> *Panj Piaray &      Amritdharis*: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story      of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never      kept them again.


  I feel like that about many Amritdhari’s.



aad0002 said:


> *Anand-Karj*: He      ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada      as based on Brahmanic Rituals.


  It may well be but I would want to see proof.


aad0002 said:


> *Bhai Randhir Singh*:      Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the      Brahmans)


  Don’t know about Brahmin Agent but Bhai Randhir certainly had some Vashnavite leanings that sit very uncomfortably with Sikhism.



aad0002 said:


> *Bhai Randhir Singh,      Bhindranwale & others*: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale,      and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums,      Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.


  I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.


aad0002 said:


> *Khanday-Batay, Amrit      & Mantar*: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl      (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar      (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits      the Brahmans for creating such a belief.


  I would want to see his reasoning behind this. I belive the original concept of Amrit as handed down by the 10th Master has been lost and it has some Brahmanical tinges nowadays.


aad0002 said:


> Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice?


 
  Don’t you find it ironic that KA criticises Brahmins so heavily yet he is a Brahmin RSS Agent?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Indexed as: 
Khalsa v. Bhullar 

Between 
Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa, Plaintiff, and 
Taranjit Kaur Bhullar, Hariner Singh Bhullar, Gurnham Singh 
Bajwa and Kahar Singh Pannu, Defendants 

[1992] B.C.J. No. 378 
Victoria Registry No. 89/1983 

British Columbia Supreme Court 
Victoria, British Columbia 
Macdonell J. 

Heard: September 3 - 6, 9 - 12 and November 7, 1991 
Judgment: February 24, 1992 
(15 pp.) 


Torts - Defamation 2- Defences - Truth. Sexual assault - Damages - General damages - Punitive damages - Punitive damage award appropriate where a /1 priest of the Sikh religion breached his position of trust by sexually assaulting a parishioner. The plaintiff sued for damages for defamation of character. The defendants counterclaimed for damages for sexual assault. The plaintiff was a priest of a Sikh religious temple. The summer following the incident which was the subject of this lawsuit, the plaintiff was discharged. The plaintiff was 68-years-old, and resided in the living quarters with his wife and a daughter. His argument was that a faction in the temple wanted to get rid of him, so they attempted to put him in a compromising position with Mrs. B. He claimed that she wrongfully exposed herself before him and was sexually aggressive towards him, and that he took no part in it. He further argued that such a false accusation against a priest is particularly devastating; in fact it resulted in his being wrongfully dismissed and being unable to obtain further employment as a priest. The case for the defence was that the plaintiff was not defamed and that, in fact, the allegation of sexual assault was true. 

HELD: The plaintiffs action was dismissed. The defendant Mrs. B succeeded on her counterclaim, having proved that the plaintiff in fact sexually assaulted her. The court awarded her $5,000.00 in general damages, and $5,000.00 in special damages. The plaintiff had failed to prove his allegation of a wrongful accusation of sexual assault. The defendants had proved their counterclaim AND THE COURT FOUND THAT IN FACT THE SEXUAL ASSAULT HAD TAKEN PLACE. With respect to general damages for the sexual assault, the court had to bear in mind the gravity of the assault, the circumstances of it, and its effect on Mrs. B. The assault was of a relatively minor nature in the sense that there was only one incident. The assault here was committed by a priest in the living quarters of a Sikh temple upon a parishioner who was requested to attend by the priest. The emotional impact of the forceful touching of the plaintiffs chest and the attempt to remove her stockings was not only offensive but appalling, particularly as the priest in the Sikh religion is held in high esteem and the utmost in decorum is expected of him. He was in a position of trust and abused the trust. On the other hand, there did not appear to be any serious after-effects on Mrs. B other than distaste for the whole matter. The impact on Mrs. B would be lessened by her vindication in this lawsuit, allowing her to save face. 

MACDONELL J.:- The plaintiffs action against the defendants is for defamation of character arising out of an accusation by the defendant Taranjit Bhullar that she was sexually assaulted by the plaintiff, which accusation was published by the defendants. The defendant Mrs. Bhullar alleges that the plaintiff sexually assaulted her, and she and her husband counterclaim for damages against the plaintiff. 

The background, briefly, is that the plaintiff at all material times was the priest at the Topaz Street Temple of the Khalsa Diwan Society, which is a Sikh religious society. The plaintiff came to Canada in 1984 and resided for a year in Grand Prairie with his daughter. Prior to coming to Canada, he had been a policeman in the Punjab and retired with the rank of Inspector in 1981. He had no training in the priesthood but was a devout Sikh. There does not seem to be much dispute that he was knowledgeable in the religion and was qualified to act as a priest, as there does not appear to be any need for prior formal religious training to act as a priest in a temple. While in Grand Prairie, he saw an advertisement in an ethnic ne"",spaper advertising for a priest at Golden. He applied and was successful and presided as a priest there for some nine months. With this experience he was accepted as a priest at 1 00 Mile House where he presided for a year. He then heard of an opening at the Topaz Street Temple in Victoria and on October 1st, 1986, he was employed there as the priest on a contract basis which provided for two months' notice by either party. He continued as priest until the summer following the incident which is the subject of this law suit, when he was discharged. 

The plaintiff was sixty-eight years of age at all material times, was married and had children. He and his wife and a daughter resided in the living quarters of the temple. Following his appointment, things went along reasonably well, although there was friction with the executive of the Society - no doubt partly due to the plaintiffs rigidity in some areas. Toward the end of December, 1987 the friction between him and the Committee increased and the plaintiff became convinced that a group in the temple, including the defendants, wished to be rid of him. It is his position that there was a conspiracy to effect his removal, starting with their sending a white woman to the temple to compromise him sexually. That plot failed as she was drunk. He alleges that thereafter there was a meeting between the various defendants and others who plotted to have the female defendant compromise him, again with the purpose of getting rid of him. However, as part of his case, the plaintiff alleges only the slander and not a conspiracy to remove him as priest, which seems to be the subject matter of another lawsuit. 

The plaintiff testified that he met the Bhullars in 1986 and that they were regular attenders at the temple. They were helpful with his daughter's marriage and by 1987 he and the Bhullars became good friends. He testified that from time to time he saw Mrs. Bhullar alone and that at times they discussed problems she had with her husband. He described their relationship as that of a family membership. 

The female defendant is thirty-five years of age and her husband is a comparable age. The plaintiff said that in 1988, when Mrs. Bhullar left one night after visiting, she embraced him and kissed him on the cheek. He said that he was very upset by this. He said that following this she telephoned him and explained that such conduct was not unusual in Canada. He said that in January and February 1989 nothing of a sexual nature took place between them and that they did not meet privately during that time. He said that on March 25th, which was just prior to his and his wife's visit to Seattle, Mrs. Bhullar came to the temple at lunchtime in response to a call from him. He said they took food after her arrival and then he went to take a rest in his bedroom. He said that the defendant came into the room. At that time he was sitting on a chair removing his jacket. He said that she removed her blouse, exposing her naked breasts, sat on his lap, and put her hands around his neck. He testified that she said, "I know you need me". He said he was stunned and pushed her away, telling her that this was not the way for a daughter to act. The defendant left and the plaintiff then went to the temple and prostrated himself before the Holy Book. He said that he and his wife left for Seattle the next day, returning April 5th of 1989. He telephoned Mrs. Bhullar at her office but as she was busy she telephoned him the following day. He said he recorded the call on his answering machine. He said he told her he would tell her husband that she was not acting like a daughter. He said he did, in fact, telephone her husband on the 6th and told him that his wife was not faithful. He met her husband in the afternoon and spoke to him further. He said that on April 30th there was a meeting of the Committee and his employment and raise were discussed. He denied that there was any condition of immediate dismissal in the case of lack of moral turpitude. He said he did not speak to the defendants from April through to June. On July 22nd, there was a meeting of the Temple Committee and the plaintiff was advised by Mr. Bajwa and Mr. Pannu that Mr. and Mrs. Bhullar had lodged a complaint against him and that there was a tape of a conversation between the plaintiff and Mrs. Bhullar. The tape was apparently played, which resulted in the plaintiffs employment being terminated. After listening to the tape and hearing the accusation of Mrs. Bhullar, the Committee accepted as a fact that the plaintiff had sexually assaulted the female defendant. 

The plaintiffs position is that this allegation is false and that the true state of affairs is that it was the defendant who wrongfully exposed herself before him and was sexually aggressive toward him, and that he took no part in it. The plaintiffs position is that such a false accusation against a priest is particularly devastating; in fact it resulted in his being wrongfully dismissed and being unable to obtain further employment as a priest. 

A considerable amount of evidence was called with respect to various taped telephone conversations, produced by both the plaintiff and the defendants Bhullar, and other evidence of conflicts in the temple which do not relate much to the law suit. The plaintiff alleges that there was a conspiracy to remove him and that the conduct of the female defendant which he described was orchestrated by a group in the Committee, which included Mr. Pannu and Mr. Bajwa, to compromise the plaintiff. The plaintiff called Mr. Gurbakash Sihota, who testified that he met the defendants Bajwa and Pannu in February 1989 and that Mr. Johal, Mr. Ajwall and Mr. Sanhera were there. The meeting was at approximately 9:00 p.m. and was arranged to congratulate Bajwa and Pannu for their election to office on the Temple Committee. The last three mentioned come from Vancouver. He said they then discussed getting rid of the plaintiff, as there was a complaint by Mr. Bajwa about the priest interfering in a wedding ceremony when Mr. Bajwa sang a poem. Mr. Pannu's complaint was that the priest contradicted his mother-in-law. The consensus was that they should get rid of the priest and that they had a girl ready to entice him into making sexual advances. The name mentioned was the female defendant, Bhullar. Mr. Sihota said that Pannu had mentioned that they had tried a white lady but it did not work because she got drunk when she was sent to the temple and the plaintiff" got away". In cross-examination the witness tied himself to the meeting taking place on February 11 tho 

The case for the defence is that the plaintiff was not defamed and that, in fact, the allegation of a sexual assault is true. The Bhullars in their counterclaim ask for damages against the plaintiff for the sexual assault. 

The female defendant is thirty-five years of age, was born in India and came to Canada in 1962, where she took her education through Grade 12 at Oak Bay High School and Camosun College. She has been with the Workers Compensation Board for some seventeen years and is presently a Claims Adjudicator, a position she has held for some four years. She was married in 1985 and has one daughter of five years of age. Her husband works for the Municipality of Saanich. They met the plaintiff when he became a priest. They attended the Topaz Street Temple regularly from 1986 through 1988 and they became close to the plaintiff. Initially, Mrs. Bhullar and her husband responded to his need for help in the community as he was a stranger. In 1987 the plaintiff needed a drive to a religious ceremony. Mrs. Bhullar drove him there and said he put his hand on her hand and she asked him to take it off. He later asked, "How about a kiss?" and she said, "You've got to be kidding". She told her husband about this incident and they cut down their visits with the plaintiff and their attendance at the temple significantly. She said that at the end of 1988 the plaintiff called her to meet him in private to talk over his problems. She said they met at the temple and nothing untoward happened. In December of 1988 the plaintiff was persistently telephoning her and at times asked her to bring food. On one occasion she did take along Chinese food and it was consumed in his quarters. On leaving she said he asked for a hug and a kiss and that she pushed him away. Following this she received telephone calls at work and by January and February 1989 he was calling her as much as four times a day, two or three times a week. In addition, when she was not available, she received messages from time to time that "Father had called". She said that in early January the plaintiff had telephoned and was very angry and upset with her as somebody in his family had died and the Bhullars had not been available to help him. She said that in mid-February the plaintiff wanted to meet her at the library in the temple for lunch as he wanted to talk to her. She went and was met at the top of the stairs by the plaintiff, who said the lunch was laid on in the library. She asked where his wife and daughter were and he told her they had had their lunch and were sleeping. She said "We went to another room, which was the guest room, where lunch was laid out". There were two beds and a dresser. They ate the food sitting on the beds. He sat on one and she sat on the other. She said that the plaintiff came to the bed and put his arm around her and pushed her back onto the bed. She said he put his hand underneath her blouse and with his other hand tugged at her skirt. She said she tried to pull away. He told her he couldn't take her nylons off, although he was trying. She said she pulled herself together and pushed him away. She said she "got loud", meaning that she raised her voice. He said "Don't get loud, the bitches are sleeping in the next room". Mrs. Bhullar then left through the library and went back to work, very upset. At that time she did not discuss what had happened with Ms. Mettis, her case assistant, although Ms. Mettis asked her what was the matter. She said in April she received a call from the plaintiff threatening to blackmail her. He said that he had a taped conversation which incriminated her. She said she was devastated. She reported to work as usual, but while going over a file with Ms. Mettis she broke down in tears and then told her what had happened at the temple. She was advised to tell her husband, which she did. They did not attend at the temple after that. Following her disclosure of the assault to her husband they went to the police, who suggested that the matter be sorted out in the Sikh community. She said to protect themselves against a case of slander they purchased a recording device and that during conversations with the plaintiff she led him to believe that she had not told her husband. Various conversations were recorded. At the same time, the plaintiff was busy recording conversations on his machine. 

Mrs. Bhullar denies that she was a party to any conspiracy to compromise the plaintiff with the purpose of having him removed. 

The defendant husband was called and his evidence paralleled that of his wife. He also testified that he was not a party to any agreement to effect the removal of the plaintiff. 

The other defendants were called and they all gave evidence to the same effect. After hearing Mrs. Bhullar's accusation of sexual assault by the plaintiff, which they believed, and the taped telephone conversations, they concluded that he had in fact committed a sexual assault and this was the foundation for his being removed as a priest. The defendants deny that there was any meeting as alleged by Mr. Sihota. 

The defence called Ms. Mettis, who confirmed the evidence of the female defendant and, in particular, the numerous calls made by the plaintiff to Mrs. Bhullar, her emotional state following the visit to the temple, and what was disclosed to her later when Mrs. Bhullar broke down at the office. 

The defence called Mr. Rajinder Sihota, who is a senior accountant with the Ministry of Finance. He testified that on February 13th, 1989 he was in a police station in the Punjab with respect to a complaint concerning Gurbakash Sihota, the witness called for the plaintiff who alleged the conspiracy meeting. Mr. Rajinder Sihota testified that the plaintiffs witness was not only in the Punjab on the 13th February, but had been there for some time. Logistically it would not have been possible for him to be in Victoria on February lIth due to time changes and travelling time. Mr. Rajinder Sihota also testified that the plaintiffs witness Sihota was a cousin of his and had a bad reputation. In addition, he had information that his cousin had been in the Punjab for a few months at that time. 

The defence's position can be summarized as a complete denial of the allegation of defamation or of a conspiracy. With respect to the counterclai:t;n, the defence claims that the evidence of the defendants should be accepted and that the Court should find that the plaintiff sexually assaulted the female defendant. 

I have to assess the credibility of the various witnesses called and also consider the tape recordings which have been led in evidence and the allegation by the defence that the plaintiffs tape recordings have been tampered with and are, in fact, extracts from other conversations taken out of context. The defence also takes the position that the tape recordings that have been produced by the defence make it quite clear that the plaintiff admitted to the sexual assault. Both the plaintiff and the defence called evidence of experts dealing with the authenticity of the tapes. The defendants' expert listened to the tapes and conducted sound tests. In my view, his evidence should be preferred to that of the plaintiffs expert, who did not carry out this testing. The conclusion of the defendants' expert is that the tape of the plaintiff was not prepared, as he testified, by using a tape recorder or answering machine and speaking to an answering machine and telephone, but that in fact all the conversations were taken from a telephone line. I find this evidence credible. I accept it and conclude that the tape prepared by the plaintiff has been concocted by him and not recorded as he testified. Listening to the defendants' tapes with the assistance of the witnesses and the interpreter persuades me that the inference to be taken from them is that the plaintiff admitted to sexually assaulting the female defendant and that the Committee was well justified in accepting the evidence of Mrs. Bhullar and the tapes in concluding that the plaintiff had sexually assaulted her. 

With respect to the alleged meeting between the executives at Mr. Sihota's house, I conclude that this evidence was fabricated and quite untrue and I accept the evidence of Mr. Rajinder Sihota called for the defence that the plaintiffs witness Sihota was in fact in the Punjab at the time when the supposed conversation and conspiracy took place. 

I conclude therefore that the plaintiff has failed to prove his allegation of a wrongful accusation of sexual assault and find that in fact the sexual assault did take place. The plaintiffs action is accordingly dismissed with costs. 

With respect to the counterclaim, I find that the defendants have proved their counterclaim and that the plaintiff in fact sexually assaulted the female defendant. The plaintiff - who, as a priest in a position of authority and influence, sexually assaulted a female parishioner in the tight-knit society of the Sikh community in Victoria - is guilty of an extremely serious offence. 

DAMAGES 

The counterclaim is advanced by both Bhullars against the plaintiff for the sexual assault. It is my view that the only one who can succeed in the counterclaim is Mrs. Bhullar. The defendant argues as if there is a counterclaim for defamation of character as well as sexual assault, but in fact that is not what the pleadings disclose. In any event, a case has not been made out to entitle Mr. Bhullar to damages. 

With respect to general damages for the sexual assault, I have to bear in mind the gravity of the assault, the circumstances of it, and its effect on Mrs. Bhullar. In this case, unlike a number of others where damages have been sought for sexual assault, the assault is of a comparatively minor nature in the sense that there was only the one incident, as opposed to cases where the assault was a rape or a similar crime of violence, or assaults on younger people, that have often continued over a number of years. Little is to be gained by trying to compare damages in cases that are not similar to the case at bar, so I do not propose to review the current authorities which are not bountiful. What I have to deal with here is an assault by a priest in the living quarters of a Sikh temple upon a parishioner who was requested to attend by the priest, who is the plaintiff. The emotional impact of the forceful touching of the plaintiffs chest and the attempt to take off her stockings is not only offensive but appalling, particularly as the priest in the Sikh religion is held in high esteem and the utmost in decorum is expected of him. He was in a position of trust and abused that trust. The assault was made possible because of the respect of Mrs. Bhullar for the plaintiff as priest and her being at the temple at all was at his request. With respect to the consequences or the effect on Mrs. Bhullar, there is very little evidence before me other than her feelings of humiliation, shock and degradation. There do not appear to be any serious after-effects other than distaste for the whole matter. Consequently, it is my view that the damages should reflect the seriousness of the assault but damages in other more serious cases should be borne in mind to keep a balanced perspective of damages under this head. To some extent the impact on Mrs Bhullard is lessened, as her success in this lawsuit vindicates her and face is saved in a society where it is very important. By the same token, the plaintiff is discredited and has lost all respect and credibility in his community. I award general damages to Mrs. Bhullar in the amount of $5,000.00 for the sexual assault. 

A claim has been advanced for punitive damages. In this case it is my view that it is appropriate that punitive damages be awarded. They are not awarded on the basis of compensation but on the principle of punishment. In this case no criminal proceedings were launched, although the Bhullars did report the matter to the police, who left it to the Sikh community to sort out the matter and did not proceed with charges. Consequently, the element of punishment of the plaintiff for his conduct has not been addressed. In this case punitive damages need be awarded to express society's disapproval of the conduct of the plaintiff as a priest in authority and trust breaching that trust and sexually assaulting a parishioner. His attempting, after that, to manufacture evidence and shift the blame away from himself and his harassment of Mrs. Bhullar is despicable. I award the sum of $5,000.00 as punitive damages. Mrs. Bhullar will have her costs of the counterclaim and pre-judgment interest at the rate set by the Registrar from time to time. 

MACDONELL J. 

(JUDGE) 

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Khalsa+v.+Bhullar+%5B1992%5D+BCJ+No.+378+(BCSC)&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholart


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## Inder singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Randip singh

sikhism does not end at teachings of SGGS.That caters to a sikh's spritiual quest.Then we have miri , a temporal aspect that is as important as teachings in SGGS ji.

This is called Guru panth.sikhism is not pick and choose.It is a wholesome.

If you want to know about kala afghana read the link below

FORT: PANTH KHALSA

Then whatever questions are there we can help you .


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> You lost me. I don't even think KA's efforts were worth making. If a Sikh was completely unaware that this controversy was taking place, would it change anything in terms of that individual Sikh's personal belief, spiritual practice or genuine devotion?




some suggest he is an agent of Congress party or Government of India, trying to create division within the panth to weaken sikhs further.  

i'm not saying i agree or disagree with this position, it's just one possible reason.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> I urge to read history and look at the evolvement of the Sikh faith and and see how many phases its has been through.
> 
> Let me take one point. If Our Guru fainted from torture, did not Jesus die on the cross? It does not make them any lesser. They were human beings and their human bodies had all the fallibilities that humans have. They were not miracle makers, did not try and change the laws of nature. For me if our Guru did faint it would not be a problem, what is more significant is that he did not give up his faith to the last.





i have read and am continuing to read books on sikh history.  by sikhs, persians, and european missionaries.

one portuguese missionary described the torture of Guru Arjun Sahib and said that he withstood impossible pain with dignity.  i'll get the book, source, and exact quote as soon as i finish unpacking my new house, sorry i can't give you the reference now.

you don't believe Guru's created miracles?  i do.  100%.  the important thing is that they did not make miracles on the demand of others, nor did they use them for personal gain.  but to say they were mere human beings is incredibly insulting to me.  if you claim to believe SGGS as your guru, you would know that Guru is far more than a "normal human being".

and what is your problem with AKJ, 3HO, etc?  why do you make reference against them in nearly every post?

it seems like i used to agree with you on many issues, but lately your statements seem very different.  what has changed?


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## Inder singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

All his life he was a low level policeman taking bribes and having no knowledge of Gurbani.How in old age he grasped so much and wrote ten books in 6 years.That was a monumental task and can never be the work of one individual who does not know Punjabi even.


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Randip ji, and other jios!

In order to make any sense of this I had to put the sexual elements of the debate to one side. Calling attention a person's character or his lack of education, in order to undermine his/her argument, is a form of logical fallacy called _argumentum ad hominem_. Evidence of low character tells us that a person has a low character. Evidence of low character does not shed light on whether or not  his/her argument is supportable in evidence or in logic. Lack of education does not necessarily impair the ability to think clearly.

My own position on this is not objective either. I am suggesting that KA was picking at some assumptions  believed by him to be baseless -- his motivations are unclear to me at this time. To date he has managed to rile a lot of people up, managed to get himself excommunicated (which probably doesn't bother him, again one has to imagine why), and achieved this by throwing a long list of allegations into  the arena, none of which strike at the core of the Sikh religion. If you don't agree with me on that last  point, just for the moment indulge me. My question is: why did he bother? 

He is not going to find much in SGGS to support each and every one of his points independently. A handful of tuks. That is all. Similarly his opponents are not going to find much in SGGS to refute him. Even where history can give some arguments some weight, historical evidence doesn't help him either. 

Two examples.

*Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial*: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.

This allegation cannot be supported in Gurbani. It can't be refuted in Gurbani either. One has to depend on the oral tradition to support this statement. The oral tradition is a fallible source of evidence in any culture. Even if archaeologists found bones, could they prove they belonged to Baba ji? It doesn't matter. What matters is his conclusion -- idol worship is being promoted. Here KA is himelf  drawing a faulty conclusion -- KA has neither evidence nor logic on his side. He is making a claim that suits his agenda or frame of mind-- whatever that is - by attributing motives to people, as if he is a mind reader. Go through the list. There are a number of arguments like this one about Baba Deep Singh ji and his head. In the end, it is the moral of the story about Baba Deep Singh that is a core belief in Sikhism, not Baba's head or where is fell.

This is the one that slays me the most.
*Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar*: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.

Imagine that I am waiting quietly during the amrit ceremony for my turn to be baptized. I am nervous, I don't know how I will react, I want to feel the force of the Naam enter my heart. But in the back of mind I have this doubt. Maybe KA is right. Maybe the ceremony is based on a incredible belief. Would this really stop me dead? And would I run out of the ceremony thinking,  WoW I have just narrowly escaped from the trap of Hindu thought and saved my intellectual integrity? Of course not. All of this is hypothetical in my case, but of course I would not react this way. Who else would run away once he/she was now aware of KA's claim? The only person to run away would be the person missing the real point of the amrit ceremony. If panj pyaare did not use this ritual they would use another ritual. And ritual is important for symbolic reasons -- ritual conveys the spiritual content of an event, it solemnizes the event. The mantar was chosen because of its spiritual content.

So I was trying to be very responsible in thinking through KA's points. Trying to find historical support and support from Gurmat (or lack of support in Gurmat) when it finally hit me  -- I might agree with him about something in fact or theory, but his arguments are only theoretically interesting.  He is toying with people.


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## Inder singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

In sikhism personal character is supreme consideration.How can he deliver sermons to others when he has low life.It does not make any sense.

He condemns respect for harmandir sahib,Guru granth sahib,ridiclues kirtan,name call Bhindrewale whom he claims to be an associate,knows nothing about Dasam granth that he condemns.

Watch what he is talking about

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/sants-vs-afgana-part-1-sri-dasam-granth-
sahib-ji/1431439275

Sants Vs Afgana Part 2 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji) - AOL Video


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Inder ji

I will concede your main argument. Tell me this. If he were a person of high character would that make his allegations more acceptable?

You can't respond by saying that only a person of low character would say such things, because there is a long list of people who have not been accused of sexual misconduct who agree with KA.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> _
> *Washing our Feet*: KA      criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib      or our Gurduara Sahibs.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> *Are we doing this for ritual reasons or practical? If for a ritual then agree with KA.


i think the vast majority of people wash their feet for the same reason they wash their hands, for the same reason we shower before our morning nitmen, for the same reason we do panj ishnaan before Rehras sahib.  out of respect for Guru.   what kind of respect does it show if we track dirty footprints all over the clean floor/sheets of the Gurdwara?  and WHY  make such an issue of it?



> _
> *Amrit Vela*: KA states how can you call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *Hmmm. Interesting point, but relative to where that person is it is Amrit-vela, but I can see his point.


so amrit vela is only relevant for some people in the world but not others?  that seems discriminatory, which is certainly anti-gurmat.  amrit vela is mentioned hundreds of times in SGGS...  i thought you guys believed everything in SGGS?



> _
> *Baba Deep Singh Ji's      memorial*: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *He's absolutely right on this. People do worship the place and bow to his photo. It has become idol worship. I have been there and I was disgusted with people behaviour.


is bowing or showing respect the same as idol worship?  when we matha tek to SGGS are we worshiping Guru?  i know i'm not...

in Sohila, Guru Ramdas tells us to bow before great saints.  was Baba Deep Singh ji not a saint?


  ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥  kar saaDhoo anjulee pun vadaa hay. 
Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit. 



  ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡਉਤ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  kar dand-ut pun vadaa hay. ((1)) rahaa-o. 
Bow down before Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. ((1)(Pause))




> _
> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit*: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *I do not believe The Tenth Master killed the 5 beloved ones and revived them. So called eye witness accounts are unreliable (and there is only one I have heard of). This is miracle making. People have missed the whole point of what occurred at Basakhi all those years ago. All this businesses about reviving the dead is Vashnavite spin.


so instead you believe Guru ji did parlour tricks to fool the audience?




> _
> *Khanday-Batay da Amrit      & Sweet Pittasay*: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *Whether Pittasay were used or not is immaterial. This is making a mountain out of a molehill, by KA and his detractors. It is what Amrit means that is important.


exactly.  so why does he say it?  why would it have anything to do with "enemies" of the faith?




> _
> *Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit      & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti*: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners)
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *I don't believe they were revived from the dead since I do not belive our Guru's used any miracles whatsoever.


the janam sakhis, local legends, and the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji all describe miracles of the Gurus.    

i've even experienced a miracle myself. : - )  or at least something completely unexplainable by me or by doctors.



> _
> *Charan-Amrit*: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *Charan Amrit is a Brahmanical ritual, but was replaced.


i wonder why our Gurus would do brahmanical rituals?



> _
> *Panj Piaray &      Amritdharis*: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *I feel like that about many Amritdhari’s.


about ALL amritdharis?  there are bad apples in every bunch.  it's not fair to criticize an entire group of people for the actions of a very few.




> _
> *Bhai Randhir Singh*:      Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the      Brahmans)
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *Don’t know about Brahmin Agent but Bhai Randhir certainly had some Vashnavite leanings that sit very uncomfortably with Sikhism.


for example?


> _
> *Bhai Randhir Singh,      Bhindranwale & others*: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.


so why are they mentioned repeatedly in SGGS?  were our Gurus Vashnavite?  



> _
> *Khanday-Batay, Amrit      & Mantar*: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.
> _





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *I would want to see his reasoning behind this. I belive the original concept of Amrit as handed down by the 10th Master has been lost and it has some Brahmanical tinges nowadays.


what are the brahmanical tinges?



> _
> Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice?_





> Originally Posted by *Randip Singh
> 
> *Don’t you find it ironic that KA criticises Brahmins so heavily yet he is a Brahmin RSS Agent?


not RSS, Congress. : - )    his point is to divide the panth, how better than to call respected Sikhs as hindus?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




> urge to read history and look at the evolvement of the Sikh faith and and see how many phases its has been through.





> Trying to find historical support and support from Gurmat (or lack of support in Gurmat) when it finally hit me -- I might agree with him about something in fact or theory, but his arguments are only theoretically interesting. He is toying with people.


History is being presented left and right.  There is NO historical or Gurmat support for Kala Afghana.  There are scholars who along with him support the _secularist view_ that basically Sikhism is a religion which contradicts science.  Now what religious authority is ever going to allow those kinds of undermining debates in the form of a preacher writing books?  Nobody.  So why are all the Kala Afghana supporters upset?  We have Sikh religion.  We believe in Sikh religion.  And the Panth has decided he is tankiya.  He is free to write all the books he wants to... just not as a Sikh.

Many things have been alleged in support of KA.  And in order to do this, people negate the authority of Akal Takht Sahib.  People malign the credibility of newspapers which put KA in a bad light... just look at the title of this thread re: allegation of sexual abuse...  Yet, it's a public lawsuit.  KA was found guilty in court of abusing his role as a granthi in a Sikh Gurdwara and sexually battering a female who was there.  Next case.  No one is putting him down.  He's putting himself down.  If I was KA, I'd go crawl under a rock in shame.  

If you really want to know WHY he did it.... Probably the fact that he doesn't believe in life after death, doesn't believe that Guru Nanak is a Guru, and thinks he can hide and get away with his actions while mascarading as a Sikh priest and missionary preacher.  He is scandalous.  that's why he's excommunicated.






Sexual battery, dening Gurbani, questioning, and bringing doubt about everything Sikhism believes ALL WHILE WEARING KHALSA BANA!
What an imposter!  Indian Government agent for real.  He worked for police.  He was infiltrating Sant ji before Operation Bluestar and then went to Canadian communities and created all these mess.

To divide and conquer.  That's why he did it.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> History is being presented left and right.  There is NO historical or Gurmat support for Kala Afghana.  There are scholars who along with him support the _secularist view_ that basically Sikhism is a religion which contradicts science.  Now what religious authority is ever going to allow those kinds of undermining debates in the form of a preacher writing books?  Nobody.  So why are all the Kala Afghana supporters upset?  We have Sikh religion.  We believe in Sikh religion.  And the Panth has decided he is tankiya.  He is free to write all the books he wants to... just not as a Sikh.
> 
> Many things have been alleged in support of KA.  And in order to do this, people negate the authority of Akal Takht Sahib.  People malign the credibility of newspapers which put KA in a bad light... just look at the title of this thread re: allegation of sexual abuse...  Yet, it's a public lawsuit.  KA was found guilty in court of abusing his role as a granthi in a Sikh Gurdwara and sexually battering a female who was there.  Next case.  No one is putting him down.  He's putting himself down.  If I was KA, I'd go crawl under a rock in shame.
> 
> ...



*Actually I don't care why he did it. He has created a mess -- His questions/ challenges are full of sound and fury signifying nothing - He is an impostor -- He is manipulating the conversation -- Yes, to divide and conquer -- Your conclusion sounds about right to me.*


----------



## Inder singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

It depends upon the extent of one's knowledge of scriptures and sikh hsitory to make one's opinion.gullible sikhs will be taken in easily by such people.

One has to see if kala afghana is right or not e.g. when he condemns sikh ardas.there you require knowledge and history of background of sikhism to rebut him.Traditions do not crop up suddenly.they have a background history.

Do you agree with him that beginning of ardas is a Hindu cencept(Refrence to Bhagauti) and sikhs should change their ardas?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*





> Jasleen Kaur Ji writes:
> Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in _Chitar-Gupt_, _Dharam-Raaj_, _Jums_,_ Narak/Surag_, and the _afterworld._
> [*]Aad0002 Ji writes:
> I don’t belive in these things either. *All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism.* They have some unwittingly _Vashnavite _leanings.



I was drinking tea and you made me choke when I read that a moderator of a Sikh forum said that. Aad0002 panji... Do you believe in Gurbani? See, this is why people like Kala Afghana are so dangerous. They create confusion about Sikh teaching in a very reasonable way. 


ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤ ਕਾ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਫਾਰਿਆ ਜਮਦੂਤਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਚਲੀ ॥ 
chithr gupath kaa kaagadh faariaa* jamadhoothaa* kashhoo n chalee ||
The accounts of *Chitr and Gupt*, the recording scribes of the conscious and the subconscious are torn up, and the _*Messenger of Death*_ cannot do anything.
~SGGS Ji p. 79​ 

ਰਵਿ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਕੋ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਤ੍ਰਾਸੁ ਕਹਾ ਜੁ ਚਰੰਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਤ ਹੈ ॥੩॥ 
rav kae suth ko thinh thraas kehaa j charann guroo chith laavath hai ||3||
Those who focus their consciousness on the Guru's Feet, they do not fear the judgement of _*Dharamraj.*_ ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 1404​ 

ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਭੁੰਚਨਾ ਹੋਇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੨॥ 
*narak surag* dhue bhunchanaa hoe bahur bahur avathaar ||2||
You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 214​ 

ਐਥੈ ਧੰਧੁ ਪਿਟਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਲਿਖਤੁ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥ 
aithhai dhhandhh pittaaeeai sach likhath paravaan ||
In this world, people are engrossed in false pursuits, but in the* world hereafter*, only the account of your true actions is accepted.
~SGGS Ji p. 21​ 

What kind of religion are people believing in when they don't accept Sikh teaching but still call themselves a Sikh? Clearly in Gurbani we see Guruji is teaching us about Chitr and Gupt, conscious and subconscious mind, Dharam-Raj, Jums or Jams and here Gurbani talks about the Jamdhoot, Narak-Surag or heaven, hell and reincarnation, and an afterworld. See only someone who thinks he has nothing to fear after death because nothing is there would challenge Gurbani this way as if this Kala Afghana was more authority than Guruji Himself!​ 

ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਨਿ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਸਸੀ ਤਿਤੁ ਵੇਲੈ ਕਹਸਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਤੁ ॥ 
jith dhin dhaeh binasasee thith vaelai kehasan praeth ||
On that day when the body perishes-at that time, she becomes a ghost.​ 
ਪਕੜਿ ਚਲਾਇਨਿ ਦੂਤ ਜਮ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਦੇਨੀ ਭੇਤੁ ॥ 
pakarr chalaaein dhooth jam kisai n dhaenee bhaeth ||
The Messenger of Death seizes and holds her, and does not tell anyone his secret.
~SGGS Ji p. 134​ 

What kind of Sikhism doesn't believe in their own Guru? Nothing in Sikhism says nothing happens after death. Gurbani is very clear. And to all those sceptics and scientific types, these things are real. Let me show you something from a photo. I found these faces when I was examining a photo. I did not put those faces there. I also have many other photos. You may disbelieve, but there are realities beyond what the physical senses can perceive. I had a haunted house, and Gurbani kirtan caused the bhoots to leave. There are many people who have had these experiences which show Gurbani is not just words, but truth. Also I worked for a number of years as a nurse with dying people. And sometimes they would even talk about the other world before they died. So even not knowing Gurbani, I knew these experiences are real. The thing is, they can't be scientifically proven, so it remains a matter of faith and personal experience. I would hope, if we call ourselves Sikhs, disciples of Guruji, that at least we believe in what Guruji says. My great-grandmother was a spiritualist medium. Believe me, our family knows a lot about this kind of thing and has many experiences. The scientists who believe in nothing are going to be in for a big shock.  And what this has to do with Brahmanism is beyond me.  As for Vaishnava, We all know Sikhism was involving Vaishnav Bhakti and Muslim Sufi saints to create whole new religion.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> It depends upon the extent of one's knowledge of scriptures and sikh hsitory to make one's opinion.gullible sikhs will be taken in easily by such people.
> 
> One has to see if kala afghana is right or not e.g. when he condemns sikh ardas.there you require knowledge and history of background of sikhism to rebut him.Traditions do not crop up suddenly.they have a background history.
> 
> Do you agree with him that beginning of ardas is a Hindu cencept(Refrence to Bhagauti) and sikhs should change their ardas?


*
No I do not agree with KA*. Sikhs should not change their Ardaas. Ardaas is a most important prayer. There is more to say than can be said in a few lines about the connections between references to Hindu gods and concepts in Gurbani and what these mean in the words of the Gurus. 

This is an entire area of study, discussion and belongs in Gurmat Vichaar. It is as you say a topic that requires in-depth study and background knowledge.

It is KA's own ignorance of Sikhism that leads in part to his baseless claims. The other part is just wickedness-- he thinks he is clever using clever words -- in exactly the same way that Guruji warns us.

I thought I was clear. I don't agree with anything KA is saying. And in terms of the chronology, he was wrong before he was declared an apostate, and his wrong after he was declared an apostate. He is wrong having been convicted of sexual misconduct and his would still be wrong if he were a celibate. What I was trying to argue is that he fails to make his case logically and in terms of belief. And he is using his ex-communication and his conviction to make himself look persecuted. That is how he is misleading people.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Harjas ji

I don't want to be quick to take offense, especially because I am not exactly clear in what you say. Leave it at this: it is impossible to draw me into an argument in which I feel obligated to defend my faith. 

This is a forum not the SPN Inquisition of Heretics. If I am over-reacting. If you or Jasleen are not saying what I think you are saying,  then you must point this out so that I can apologize publicly to you.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> Harjas ji
> 
> I don't want to be quick to take offense, especially because I am not exactly clear in what you say. Leave it at this: it is impossible to draw me into an argument in which I feel obligated to defend my faith.
> 
> This is a forum not the SPN Inquisition of Heretics. If I am over-reacting. If you or Jasleen are not saying what I think you are saying,  then you must point this out so that I can apologize publicly to you.




um, what do you think i'm saying?  sorry, i understand things better if they're stated clearly.


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

So do I jasleen, when things are stated directly.


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## Inder singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<I don’t belive in these things either. *All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism.* They have some unwittingly _Vashnavite _leanings>>>.

Aadoo2 ji

What is meant by above,Are you saying that soul ,reincarnation,theory of karma are Hindu concepts?Please clarify.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> Randip Singh says:
> 
> "Taboban is a Sant Mat site. I am not a fan of Afghana, but I would not belive the nonsense at Tapoban for one second."


Randip Singh, why do you go around deliberately trying to make Gurmat sources seem untrustworthy, while arguing vehemently for the credibility of Kala Afghana? I've been posting to Tapoban forums for years and have friends who are associated with the Tapoban Singhs. They most certainly are NOT Sant Mat Radhasoami. They are Gurmat. By what desperate stretch of logic would dare make so unbelievable a slander against the Tapoban Singhs? To bolster your arguments in favor of Kala Afghana the apostate?

For anyone who has any doubt whatsoever, Tapoban is 100% Gurmat Gursikhi and is affiliated with the Panthic Jatha Akhand Kirtani Jatha (AKJ). Here is a link to their website as evidence they have zero affiliation with Sant Mat. It is preposterous even to allege. Why do you persist in making ugly rumors about Panthically affiliated groups such as Panthic Weekly, Tapoban, Damdami Taksal and AKJ? You have zero supportive evidence, and for a self-claimed historian, that looks pretty sad. You harm your own credibility this way veer ji. Why don't you stop.


> Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib is dedicated to preserving and practicing Tat-Gurmat Maryada, the most pristine and original form of Sikhism. Gurdwara Tapoban Saahib strives to maintain a strict Khalsa rehit and conducts Akhand Keertan, the collective singing of hymns in front of Sree Guru Granth Saahib jee with active participation by the Sangat. True Khalsa rehits which are disappearing in the Panth are maintained at Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib including parkaash of Lareedaar Saroop of Sree Guru Granth Saahib jee and Sarbloh bibekee langar.
> 
> Tapoban.org


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## Astroboy (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

KA stands no chance against the Panj Pyare's Hukam at Sri Akaal Takht. He presented too many changes too soon. Not that I disagree with him completely, but people don't change their awareness so easily by reading a book. By demanding changes to strongly, not understanding the psychology of acceptance level, his own book back-fired on him. 

Now that he's ex-communicated, his ego/revenge is the destructive force. More like a Plan B thing.


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## Inder singh (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

The point is he knows nothing about Dasam granth.He was brought Fresno Gurudwara in 2002 to discuss the subject.he could not speak on it and ran away.

he was engaged in a discussion Baba Nihal singh ji.He was beating about the bush.Today i have posted two videos in this thread about this discussion.


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## Astroboy (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> The point is he knows nothing about Dasam granth.He was brought Fresno Gurudwara in 2002 to discuss the subject.he could not speak on it and ran away.
> 
> he was engaged in a discussion Baba Nihal singh ji.He was beating about the bush.Today i have posted two videos in this thread about this discussion.


 

Thank you Inder Singh Ji,

KA is not a preacher or lecturer, just opined on certain issues and complied them in a book/books. I'm not surprised he could not speak about it. Btw, KA is being given too much importance. Instead what we should be doing more in our lives is understanding what is Shabad Guru.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> Harjas ji
> 
> I don't want to be quick to take offense, especially because I am not exactly clear in what you say. Leave it at this: it is impossible to draw me into an argument in which I feel obligated to defend my faith.
> 
> This is a forum not the SPN Inquisition of Heretics. If I am over-reacting. If you or Jasleen are not saying what I think you are saying, then you must point this out so that I can apologize publicly to you.


You don't owe me an apology. And this is a discussion forum not a witch hunt. I was addressing the quote from you which agreed with KA and denied Gurbani. 3 people in total have reposted your quote. For clarity I will repost it again. Because it is a rather important to publically make a comment denying Gurbani and calling it Hindu. Perhaps we were mistaken and you meant something else. Please clarify ji.



> Jasleen Kaur Ji writes:
> 
> Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in _Chitar-Gupt_, _Dharam-Raaj_, _Jums_,_ Narak/Surag_, and the _afterworld._
> Aad0002 Ji writes:
> I don’t belive in these things either. *All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism.* They have some unwittingly _Vashnavite _leanings.


 
"it is impossible to draw me into an argument in which I feel obligated to defend my faith." These comments are against Gurbani. You are entitled to your belief, but you should know people will challenge when you call Gurbani a Hindu concept that you don't believe in. Please explain to us what you meant. Or perhaps you didn't know this was Gurbani?

No offense please.  But it's not entirely clear because you go on to say, "I thought I was clear. I don't agree with anything KA is saying." Yet you are agreeing with him against Gurbani and calling "_Chitar-Gupt_, _Dharam-Raaj_, _Jums_,_ Narak/Surag_, and the _afterworld,"_*Hindu* concepts, *nothing to do with Sikhism*, yet they are written in *Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji*.  That is why we are a little surprised.


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## pk70 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Sangat jio
 I am just wondering why so much importance is given to KA, the guy is a joke and completely exposed.
I dont see aad0002 has said any thing in favour of KA
Randip Singh ji was trying to agree or disagree with KA but I dont see he has any sympathy with KA
Peace please. A Joke should be taken as a joke.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> So do I jasleen, when things are stated directly.



you said:

"If you or Jasleen are not saying what I think you are saying, then you must point this out so that I can apologize publicly to you."

so state it directly please, what do you think i'm saying?


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Read my comments about KA in their entirety once again. *The problem has been solved. *


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Inder ji



Inder singh said:


> <<<I don’t belive in these things either. *All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism.* They have some unwittingly _Vashnavite _leanings>>>.
> 
> Aadoo2 ji
> 
> What is meant by above,Are you saying that soul ,reincarnation,theory of karma are Hindu concepts?Please clarify.



This comment was made sometime back.  May we should go back and take a look at that part of the thread to understand what I meant. *Harjas ji, you actually had me believing that I said this, and I didn't say it. Joke is on me.*

However, "soul" is not a concept that is unique to Sikhism, reincarnation and theory of karma do have Vashavite origins -- this should come as no surprise to you. 

As for the statement I don’t belive in these things either. *All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism.* They have some unwittingly _Vashnavite _leanings. Do you think I was saying that I did not believe in reincarnation and the theory of karma?   *I never said this Inder ji. This comment came from someone else. *

And in an earlier post, in response to your question, I pointed out that their meanings in Sikhism depart radically from the original Hindu understanding of these terms. 

Anyway, please accept my thanks for asking me to clarify right away a few posts back. It shows grace on your part, and I appreciate that.
_
P/S Inder ji --  Can you tell me the number of the post where I said all that above? I have gone 4 pages back and cannot find it. I would like to know for myself. If I get there first I will respond. Thanks again*.  I found the problem, and please read my response in Post  80.*
_


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Pk70 ji

You are a pretty level-headed person. So your comments add a measure of objectivity. I wonder also -- but to me it is pretty clear that KA has been able to create a lot of turmoil and dissension using arguments that are in my view without any merit. 

Randip ji has been quietly encouraging a more dispassionate analysis of KA's arguments, certainly more dispassionate than I. I find nothing defensible in KA's claims. And that is why in the end the only conclusion that made sense to me was that he enjoys playing the role of a persecuted intellectual. And enjoys the friction he has created. That alone would make people angry -- if they feel they are being manipulated over matters of faith.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> Read my comments about KA in their entirety once again.



*sigh*

i give up.

in the future, if you're going to address things to me, please make them clear and direct.  i am far too stupid to understand what you're talking about.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

*OK jios. I have found the source of the problem. Not that it didn't take me a half hour. 

In post number 62 Forum Member Jasleen ji includes the following quotes. The first is  quote of  me quoting Wikipedia. In other words, not my original idea. Someone else wrote that statement. 
*
Quote:
                                                 Originally Posted by *aad0002* 
_
*Bhai Randhir Singh,      Bhindranwale & others*: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
_ *Below you will see another quote in Post 62, directly under my ID, aad0002, and it looks like something I said, and therefore it could have been my opinion. Right? Wrong!

* Quote:
                    I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.           


*The problem is, respected forum members,  I never said -- "I don't believe in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashavite learnings. "

**Someone else said that. *

*If you read Post 53, you will discover who is the true author of this statement. And if you take the time to read his entire comment, you will discover that he was WEIGHING ARGUMENTS  looking at one side and then the other side of the controversy.

This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives. 

But I will remember all of us in Ardaas tomorrow at gurdwara. 
*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> In post number 62 Forum Member Jasleen ji includes the following quotes. *The first is quote of me quoting Wikipedia. In other words, not my original idea. Someone else wrote that statement. *


Thankyou for clarifying, as it was really surprising if you had said this. Perhaps the way you quoted in your original post left something unclear. this is why we immediately wanted to clarify that Guru's bani is NOT a Hinduized concept. As you can imagine, anyone would jump. And I did provide Gurbani to support that those concepts are in fact found In _Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji_ so no person would misunderstand Sikh faith in the mischevious way KA has been attempting to misportray it.



> Below you will see another quote in Post 62, directly under my ID, aad0002, *and it looks like something I said*, and therefore it could have been my opinion. Right? Wrong!
> Quote:
> I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.
> 
> ...


Because it was unclear, it needed to be clarified. this is a public forum after all, and great care should be taken with regards our Guruji's bani. Have you ever said paath with other people? And the moment you make a mistake, everyone in the room corrects you? And if you are learning paath, every 5 min someone is stopping you to correct your mistake? That's how Sikh's treat Gurbani. *Whenever there is something mistated, it needs to be clarified.* No need for hurt feelings. I'm very happy you didn't state this. Because I would be disappointed if you had. What is important is the clarity of Gurbani. Because if 3 people on this post weren't clear what was said, others could also take the message that concepts found in Gurbani are Hindu. And sadly, that kind of disrespect of Gurbani and game-playing intellectualism is what KA is all about, as you noted.

Since we are talking about an issue very important to the Panth, which involves the value of Gurbani, the authority of Akal Takht Sahib Ji, the legitimacy of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani, and questioning the authority of Akal Takht to excommunicate KA, as well as the integrity of the Panthic Jatha's and news agencies reporting this coverage to the Panth... There is no room to misstate KA and send the message that Guru's bani is Hindu. And I thank you for that clarification.



> If you read Post 53, you will discover who is the true author of this statement. And if you take the time to read his entire comment, you will discover that he was _WEIGHING ARGUMENTS_ looking at one side and then the other side of the controversy.


KA is a declared apostate and all his supporters are warned from the central Sikh religious authority NOT to support him or tolerate nindya of Gurbani. Therefore, no one can "weigh arguments" unless they challenge the authority of Guru Khalsa Panth in Panj Piare which has already declared it's decision.



> This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves _whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard_ The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives.


How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a *declared tankiya* like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments. 

These are *delicate matters* and due care is required. Most especially the Panth had uncovered this previous lawsuit regarding his behavior and character, which is relevant to evaluate the kind of person we are dealing with, when so many argue in his favor AGAINST Akal Takht and the Panth. Yet, Panthic news agencies were denigrated, their credibility challenged. Even 5 or more times the legal citation for KA's case was posted with various sources, including reputable law journals. And it took that much to silence the objection defending his outrageous misconduct in the clothing of a Khalsa and a priest. That hardly constitutes dispassionate and objective analysis.

The bottom line for every Sikh _is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat._* But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare.* The moment we undermine Gurmat Gursikhi, _we will create conditions where Granthis molest people in our temples_ and we tolerate arguing for tolerance in order to defend the indefensible. Or do we think we are a better judge than Guru about Panthic matters?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

A lot of people don't really understand the complex issues involving the manipulation of Sikh faith and identity by the government of India. Sangat piare jio please watch the videos are they will provide a better perspective for understanding people like Kala Afghana, sant Nirankaris and the dissemination campaign by Indian intelligence agencies on Sikh religious teaching to divide Sikhs.  Let's not forget the larger picture at stake here in all these delicate issues in the Panth today.

1984 Documentry On Sikhs Part ONE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuHssUwDyWY

1984 Documentary On Sikhs PART2 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhUNzxKoYb8

1984 Documentry On Sikhs Part THREE 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBbyVU8HmZY

1984 Documentary On Sikhs PART4 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6UF6wBKUe8

1984 Documentary On Sikhs PART 5 Final 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLeKjXjhzH8


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Harjas ji

* I think it is sad that you  have not yet grasped what has happened here. Here is what you have just stated. Do not evade your responsibility. *

Because it was unclear, it needed to be clarified. this is a public forum after all, and great care should be taken with regards our Guruji's bani. Have you ever said paath with other people? And the moment you make a mistake, everyone in the room corrects you? And if you are learning paath, every 5 min someone is stopping you to correct your mistake? That's how Sikh's treat Gurbani. *Whenever there is something mistated, it needs to be clarified.* No need for hurt feelings. I'm very happy you didn't state this. Because I would be disappointed if you had. What is important is the clarity of Gurbani. Because if 3 people on this post weren't clear what was said, others could also take the message that concepts found in Gurbani are Hindu. And sadly, that kind of disrespect of Gurbani and game-playing intellectualism is what KA is all about, as you noted.

Who are you to say "no need for hurt feelings?" Who are you to express relief that I "didn't state this?" So far the only Gurbani twister in this thread has been Kala Afghana. 
*
 There is no way that a mere mortal can clarify a statement that he/she did not make in the first place. *Two "quotes" one of me and one of someone else, neither one expressing my views, taken out of context, placed side by side, and you say you choked on your tea. *Now it is you playing mind games.

* Everything else that I have said in this thread pointed in the opposite direction of my meaning. These two voiceless quotes were placed side by side. On the basis of this you wrote 3 separate comments impugning the sincerity of my faith in great detail. Who are you to judge who is among the faithful and who is not?

 Here is the lesson that I learned.  There is still too much attachment in me.  I allowed you to have this kind of power over me. Before you take others to task again on the purity of their belief, please stop and think about what you are doing. They may be in more pain than I am. They may not have the energy to find themselves and spring back.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




> There is no way that a mere mortal can clarify a statement that he/she did not make in the first place.


But you just did in your post where you said, "I did not say that.  Those were not my ideas."  It was fully clarified that no disrespect for Gurbani on your part occured, you were quoting from a source who was disrespectful to Guru's bani.




> and you say you choked on your tea. *Now it is you playing mind games.*


I choked on my tea to read the unclear passage which led me to believ you had said Gurbani was a Hindu concept.  If you would take the time to view the videos, it would become clear to you why that statement would be so objectionable.  As I have already stated a few times now, I'm very glad you didn't state it, but that it had come from KA... which it figures.  As to games... I try hard to be quite clear.



> I allowed you to have this kind of power over me. Before you take others to task again on the purity of their belief, please stop and think about what you are doing.


I invited you to have understanding by viewing the videos.  The entire "delicate matter" of the Panth would be immeasurable clearer than continuing this debate.  Purity of belief is precisely what is at issue here.  But you must grasp the historical context to know why it is such a delicate issue.

I'm sorry you were so offended personally.  I would have jumped at anyone... and anyone I know would have jumped at me for saying what KA did about Guru's bani.



> These two voiceless quotes were placed side by side. On the basis of this you wrote 3 separate comments impugning the sincerity of my faith in great detail.


Those comments are not voiceless, indeed they are reverberating all over the Panth, hence the excommunication of KA.  I did not impugn your faith, I tried to correct that Guru's bani included _Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld._ Because anyone who says these are not Sikh teaching but are Vaishnav Hindu concepts is creating problems in the Panth.  Again, I'm sorry to upset you, but the way I read as it was already posted with your name, it did indeed look like you had said it.  But regardless who said it, it is a mischevious game-playing with words which directly insults Gurbani.  So even if it had not been your name attached, *which was a mistake*, but no deliberation on Jasleen Kaur ji's part, as she asked for clarification... even if it had _*KA name attached, which it rightly should have*_, I would have choked on my tea and gone to Gurbani to prove those concepts are words of Guru from Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj and NOT Hindu.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Then madam, you should consider this. Each person who is a member here may or may not be a member of the Panth. But they are not strings on a violin that reverberate with ignorance each time a crackpot instigates controversy. Have a little more faith, in the rest of us and in yourself.

I am beginning to understand even better now.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

What happened to you Aad0002 was your name got attached to quotes, because you had quoted a conversation. It looked to Jasleen Kaur Ji like you were answering in your own words.

We are not upset with you personally. So stop making a drama. We are upset with the words. And in fact the entire Khalsa Panth is upset with the words, which is why KA is even being discussed here. May I politely say, your missing the huge issue fretting about a perceived slight which is founded on a_ mistake in fact_ and thus has _nothing to do with you_, but directly goes to the tankiya which led to KA being excommunicated. KA offends Sikh sentiments with statements such as he made.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




> Who are you to say "no need for hurt feelings?" Who are you to express relief that I "didn't state this?"


I am saying there is no need for hurt feelings because there was no intent to hurt your feelings. Rather the intent was to correct the material mistatements (which we can now correctly attribute to KA)> Bear in mind I too am human, and I read those quotes having your name on them, so I addressed my concerns and responses to you. Who am I to state anything>? I am a human being with God's Divine spark and following this incredible controversy and the destructive effect it is having on MY Panth, and being a member of a forum which is a place to discuss concerns and issues, I CLAIM THE RIGHT TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES. Else, why have a forum or allow controversial topics if people get so offended personally they can't discuss? I do not even question why a Muslim is writing on these forums. But i DO question ANYONE who says Guruji's bani is HINDU!  

Now let us stop this.




> "So far the only Gurbani twister in this thread has been Kala Afghana."


Without question.


----------



## pk70 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> KA is a declared apostate and all his supporters are warned from the central Sikh religious authority NOT to support him or tolerate nindya of Gurbani. Therefore, no one can "weigh arguments" unless they challenge the authority of Guru Khalsa Panth in Panj Piare which has already declared it's decision.


 

* With all due respect, I am sorry to disagree with you on this approach, it sounds more dogmatic than religious or spiritual approach.*
* Dr Piar Singh was punished by Akal Takhat for writing something and he accepted it; however, When Gyani Gurdit Singh wrote" Mundawani" and it was not liked by Akal Takhat but he was spared because he was a good friend of Joginder Singh Vedanti(Jadedar Akal takhat)< why this double standarad by Akal Takhat? Now don't get me wrong here about KA( as I just cant stand him)*


How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a *declared tankiya* like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments. 


*If I read correctly, Aad0002 was not talking about other groups as you have quoted She was hinting towards  SPN members who  respond to the opposite views.*
*I recommend you to reread her comments in this context.*

.

The bottom line for every Sikh _is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat._* But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare.* 



Are you suggesting that tolerance, analyzing the truth if questionable are against Gurmat? I hold strong feeling that some of bani in Dasam Granth ji is not authored by our Glorious Guru Gobind Singh ji (and this controversy is acknoledged by a lot of Sikh circles who are members of SGPC.) So am I anti Gutmat?  This kind of approach will reduce us to lovers of ritualism again;  Satguru Nanak ji devoted his entire life against such things. Forgive me if I have to disagree with you!


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*





> Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in _Chitar-Gupt_, _Dharam-Raaj_, _Jums_,_ Narak/Surag_, and the _afterworld._
> KA writes:
> I don’t belive in these things either. *All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism.* They have some unwittingly _Vashnavite _leanings.



We are having a debate about the above comments. Aad0002 is upset because they were mistakenly attributed to her for which I apologized already.


> _KA is a declared apostate and all his supporters are warned from the central Sikh religious authority NOT to support him or tolerate nindya of Gurbani. Therefore, no one can "weigh arguments" unless they challenge the authority of Guru Khalsa Panth in Panj Piare which has already declared it's decision._
> 
> _With all due respect, I am sorry to disagree with you on this approach, it sounds more dogmatic than religious or spiritual approach._
> _Dr Piar Singh was punished by Akal Takhat for writing something and he accepted it; however, When Gyani Gurdit Singh wrote" Mundawani" and it was not liked by Akal Takhat but he was spared because he was a good friend of Joginder Singh Vedanti(Jadedar Akal takhat)< why this double standarad by Akal Takhat? Now don't get me wrong here about KA( as I just cant stand him)_


With all due respect I was talking specifically about Kala Afghana (KA).





> When Gyani Gurdit Singh wrote" Mundawani" and it was not liked by Akal Takhat but he was spared because he was a good friend of Joginder Singh Vedanti(Jadedar Akal takhat)< why this double standarad by Akal Takhat? Now don't get me wrong here about KA( as I just cant stand him)


I don't have any knowledge of this, nor do I see the relevance in lending support or credibility to a tankiya by alleging double standards and thus undermining the authority of Akal Takht Sahib Ji. If you have a personal issue with Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti, perhaps you should address him directly. Panthically I have issues with a lot of things. But I don't undermine my support for hukamnama of Akal Takht because that is Guru Saroop for me.


> _"__How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a *declared tankiya* like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments."_
> 
> If I read correctly, Aad0002 was not talking about other groups as you have quoted _*She was hinting towards SPN members who respond to the opposite views.*_ I recommend you to reread her comments in this context.


We were discussing the statement of KA specifically regarding his statement that certain concepts from Gurbani are a Vaishnaiv Hindu concept. We are discussing that this quotation was mistakenly attributed to her for which she became upset. And my quote was in response to her statement which I shall reconstruct from my post:


> Quote:
> This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves _whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard_ The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives.
> 
> How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a *declared tankiya* like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments.


_



The bottom line for every Sikh is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat.* But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare.* 

Are you suggesting that tolerance, analyzing the truth if questionable are against Gurmat? I hold strong feeling that some of bani in Dasam Granth ji is not authored by our Glorious Guru Gobind Singh ji (and this controversy is acknoledged by a lot of Sikh circles who are members of SGPC.) So am I anti Gutmat? This kind of approach will reduce us to lovers of ritualism again; Satguru Nanak ji devoted his entire life against such things. Forgive me if I have to disagree with you! 

Click to expand...

_Gursikh doesn't challenge Guru. If there is an issue, the Gursikh is to take resolution through Panj Piare and not through activities which divide the Panth and cause controversy as activities of Gurbask Singh Kala Afghana. I spoke directly to the issue of KA in this comment as I shall reconstruct my post again for clarity.



> These are *delicate matters* and due care is required. Most especially the Panth had uncovered this previous lawsuit regarding his behavior and character, which is relevant to evaluate the kind of person we are dealing with, when so many argue in his favor AGAINST Akal Takht and the Panth. Yet, Panthic news agencies were denigrated, their credibility challenged. Even 5 or more times the legal citation for KA's case was posted with various sources, including reputable law journals. And it took that much to silence the objection defending his outrageous misconduct in the clothing of a Khalsa and a priest. That hardly constitutes dispassionate and objective analysis.
> 
> _The bottom line for every Sikh is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat.* But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare.* The moment we undermine Gurmat Gursikhi, we will create conditions where Granthis molest people in our temples and we tolerate arguing for tolerance in order to defend the indefensible. Or do we think we are a better judge than Guru about Panthic matters?_


As you can clearly see what was taken from my post was in context of *challenging the decision of Akal Takht regarding the excommunication of Kala Afghana*, and not regarding legitimate and individual questions related to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. 

And how many times do I have to apologize to Aad0002 over what was a mistake in fact and not any deliberate intent to cause her stress or suffering?



> Earlier on 14 May, 2000 Sri Akal Takhat Sahib had imposed a ban on debating the issue of Dasam Granth in public. However by its amending order of 27th November, 2006 noted that anti-Sikh elements continued with their tirade against Dasam Banee and now declared those elements speaking and writing against Sri Dasam Granth as mischief mongers and ordered the Sikh intellectuals to come forward and give befitting reply to those creating controversies.
> 
> The Seminar was thus an implementation of the diktats of Akal Takhat Sahib.
> 
> ...


See above for any issue of inclarity regarding bani of Sri Dasam Granth.


----------



## pk70 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji

Thanks for clarifying, I applaud that. 
Regarding aad0002, my intention was to give you hint that you misread her views, *nothing more than that*. Both of you are *Gursikhs* and I just feel to *clear* *misunderstanding if any.*


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> *OK jios. I have found the source of the problem. Not that it didn't take me a half hour.
> 
> In post number 62 Forum Member Jasleen ji includes the following quotes. The first is  quote of  me quoting Wikipedia. In other words, not my original idea. Someone else wrote that statement.
> *
> ...




i apologize.  i am a fool and have not yet mastered the art of quoting multiple people.  i tried to do it by keeping your name in the bits from your post and leaving no name in the responses...  sorry, i will try to figure out how to use this system better.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> What happened to you Aad0002 was your name got attached to quotes, because you had quoted a conversation. It looked to Jasleen Kaur Ji like you were answering in your own words.



not exactly.  this is all my mistake in formatting, nothing more.  i AGAIN apologize to everyone i so irresponsibly mislead with my poor formatting.

Antonia posted a wikipedia list of greviances against KA.  Randip Singh agreed with KA on several items in the list.  all i wanted to do was discuss Randir's answers with him!  i thought if i only responded to his answer and not the question he was answering, it would seem out of context.  when i used the "quote reply" option, it only quoted his answers not the questions.  so i stupidly quoted the questions as well.  because it was Antonia who posted the questions, her name got attached.

it is completely and 100% my fault.

*i have edited post 62 to try to make it more clear.*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

I am no Gursikh Pk70, as my faults can plainly be seen by all.  But I try to be a good person and hope with Guru's piare that I can become one.


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




jasleen_kaur said:


> i have read and am continuing to read books on sikh history. by sikhs, persians, and european missionaries.





jasleen_kaur said:


> one portuguese missionary described the torture of Guru Arjun Sahib and said that he withstood impossible pain with dignity. i'll get the book, source, and exact quote as soon as i finish unpacking my new house, sorry i can't give you the reference now.




I think I may have read this. Get the source. You are however missing my point. Whether he feinted or didn't is irrelevant. We are arguing about an irrelevant point.



jasleen_kaur said:


> you don't believe Guru's created miracles? i do. 100%. the important thing is that they did not make miracles on the demand of others, nor did they use them for personal gain. but to say they were mere human beings is incredibly insulting to me. if you claim to believe SGGS as your guru, you would know that Guru is far more than a "normal human being".




I do not believe in miracles, and the Guru's own conduct confirms this. They did not perform miracles and did not ascribe to them.

There is nothing insulting in calling Guru's Human Beings. They were just that. They were not Gods, Demi-God's, Alien BEINGS. They were Human beings, albeit Human Beings with a much higher level of conscience than the average human. Their bodies felt pain, they felt love, they felt anguish. What made them different from the average human was their ability to control their human emotions.

This game of playing miracles and one upmanship is the distasteful aspect I find in other faiths. The only way they can prove how great and religious their religious figures were is by stating how many miracles their own figures made. Luckily for us Sikhism does not play such a game.



jasleen_kaur said:


> and what is your problem with AKJ, 3HO, etc? why do you make reference against them in nearly every post?




I have a problem with all organisations that cause division in Sikhism, and in particular with those (like these), that have Vashnavite leanings.

AKJ is particular is responsible for a wave of intolerance, remanicent of Wahabism, that is plagueing Sikhism at the moment.



jasleen_kaur said:


> it seems like i used to agree with you on many issues, but lately your statements seem very different. what has changed?




I normally try not to get too involved in debates outside Bani and Bani interpretation, however, I find witch hunts of individuals such as KA by organisation such as AKJ, newspapers like Panthic Weekly (should be renamed Pathetic Weekly) etc distasteful. Even more than KA, these organisations and institutions, by their autocratic actions are undermining the Sikhism.

I believe in giving people a fair chance, and demonising them and posting cases of sexual allegations are not the ways to do it. Lets debate the issue, not the person. It is not secret that Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers have an axe to grind against KA. I think they will stoop to any lengths to try and discredit him, rather than challenge his beliefs. I have not seen anyone actually debate what this fellow wrote. The same happened with that Professor Ghaggha fellow.

In any case, we cannot agree on everything. I do not agree with everything with my wife, so why should we agree with everything? J


Best Wishes


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> Randip ji, and other jios!
> 
> In order to make any sense of this I had to put the sexual elements of the debate to one side. Calling attention a person's character or his lack of education, in order to undermine his/her argument, is a form of logical fallacy called _argumentum ad hominem_. Evidence of low character tells us that a person has a low character. Evidence of low character does not shed light on whether or not his/her argument is supportable in evidence or in logic. Lack of education does not necessarily impair the ability to think clearly.
> 
> ...


 
some nice points.

Lets debate issues like this rather than people.


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




jasleen_kaur said:


> i think the vast majority of people wash their feet for the same reason they wash their hands, for the same reason we shower before our morning nitmen, for the same reason we do panj ishnaan before Rehras sahib. out of respect for Guru. what kind of respect does it show if we track dirty footprints all over the clean floor/sheets of the Gurdwara? and WHY make such an issue of it?





jasleen_kaur said:


>




I made a point before, that in the west it is less dusty. I don't know about others, but I am immaculately clean. I shower twice a day. My feet and hands are very clean. I do not see the need for why I must wash my feet. I see people around me do it, and it seems more like a ritual to me.

This concept of respect for Guruji and washing? Our Guru's kept company with some of the most unclean so called low life people as can be deemed at that time in history, so I don't hold to that argument. To my mind it has become a ritual.



jasleen_kaur said:


> so amrit vela is only relevant for some people in the world but not others? that seems discriminatory, which is certainly anti-gurmat. amrit vela is mentioned hundreds of times in SGGS... i thought you guys believed everything in SGGS?




Is it mentioned? If so when did it become a concept formally for Sikhs? Did Sikhs in  say 1755 keep Amritvela? Or did they rise early anyway? The concept of Amritvela is to clear your mind before you start the day. Get yourself spiritually in tune. It is time for yourself, but for some it has become a ritual. I used to hear people bragging as to how early they get up for Amritvela.

I think the concept behind Amritvela must be analysed, and also an analysis of what it has become today.



jasleen_kaur said:


> is bowing or showing respect the same as idol worship? when we matha tek to SGGS are we worshiping Guru? i know i'm not... ?




Interesting point. I think for some the reason why we do this has become a form of worship. The ritual now involves, bowing, praying their for ages, circumnavigating SGGSji, bowing again etc etc.



jasleen_kaur said:


> in Sohila, Guru Ramdas tells us to bow before great saints. was Baba Deep Singh ji not a saint?
> 
> 
> ਕਰਿਸਾਧੂਅੰਜੁਲੀਪੁਨੁਵਡਾਹੇ॥kar saaDhoo anjulee pun vadaa hay.
> ...




So when does paying respect become worship? What I have witnessed seems to have become worship.




jasleen_kaur said:


> so instead you believe Guru ji did parlour tricks to fool the audience?




Hmmm Jasleen, making inflamatory acusations like this does not do you any justice or me any favours. A third person reading this would probably view me as the devil.

Like all Teachers test their pupils so did the Guru's. The entire concept behind what occurred on Basakhi all those years ago was devised so only the bravest may survive. When Guruji appeared with blood on his sword and the first person do you know how many people ran away? It was not a trick, not a miracles of bringing people to life, but a test, and a test that worked and ensured Sikhi's survival. Only the bravest and strongest became Sikhs.



jasleen_kaur said:


> exactly. so why does he say it? why would it have anything to do with "enemies" of the faith?




All I am asking is this guys reasoning behind it, and not to attack him personally.




jasleen_kaur said:


> the janam sakhis, local legends, and the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji all describe miracles of the Gurus.




Varan Bhai Gurdas is very cryptic in the way it is written. It talks about Goats talking etc etc. Many metaphors and the way "Sufi's and Saints" would communicate with one another.

Janamsakhi's are anecdotal, and some of the stories must be taken with a pinch of salt. Of the 4 Sakhi's I have looked at for the same incident there have been 4 different versions, however, the meaning behind the story exactly the same.



jasleen_kaur said:


> i've even experienced a miracle myself. : - ) or at least something completely unexplainable by me or by doctors.




well good for you.



jasleen_kaur said:


> i wonder why our Gurus would do brahmanical rituals?




You must understand that not all customs and rituals would have disappeared overnight. Would the Guru's have greeted people with Sat Sri Akal or another greeting? Understand the concept of Charan Amrit in its context. You are reading eyewitness accounts then read Amandeep Madra's book on eyewitness accounts of Sikhs and you will see Charan Amrit there too.



jasleen_kaur said:


> about ALL amritdharis? there are bad apples in every bunch. it's not fair to criticize an entire group of people for the actions of a very few.




You know a friend said to me one, bad things happen not because bad people do them, but because good people do nothing.



jasleen_kaur said:


> for example?




His writings in Udit Duniya.

Beliefs in heaven and hell as real places. Angels, demi-gods, devil's etc. There are others too.



jasleen_kaur said:


> so why are they mentioned repeatedly in SGGS? were our Gurus Vashnavite?




They are metaphors.



jasleen_kaur said:


> what are the brahmanical tinges?




Before receiving Amrit was like getting a degree. Now it’s a ritual with sects and others adding their own spin to it.



jasleen_kaur said:


> not RSS, Congress. : - ) his point is to divide the panth, how better than to call respected Sikhs as hindus?




I think the Panth is doing a great job on division without KA. In any religion group, organisation it is healthy to have debate and question, and if KA is doing that it is good, if he is not then lets defeat his points by debate and not character assasination.


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Randip Singh, why do you go around deliberately trying to make Gurmat sources seem untrustworthy, while arguing vehemently for the credibility of Kala Afghana? I've been posting to Tapoban forums for years and have friends who are associated with the Tapoban Singhs. They most certainly are NOT Sant Mat Radhasoami. They are Gurmat. By what desperate stretch of logic would dare make so unbelievable a slander against the Tapoban Singhs? To bolster your arguments in favor of Kala Afghana the apostate?



Has rational debate has been replaced by hysteria? Now I am a KA supporter? Tapoban is the voice box for a sect of Sikhs. It does not represent Sikhism. I have read that forum for years and seen the way differing viewpoints have been viciously attacked and also people banned from that forum.

If they are Gurmat then do they support the Rehit Maryada in its entirety as prescribed by the SGPC?

I am entitled to my viewpoint as are you. In my eyes they support a certain sect of Sikhism, and therefore Sant Mat.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> For anyone who has any doubt whatsoever, Tapoban is 100% Gurmat Gursikhi and is affiliated with the Panthic Jatha Akhand Kirtani Jatha (AKJ). Here is a link to their website as evidence they have zero affiliation with Sant Mat. It is preposterous even to allege. Why do you persist in making ugly rumors about Panthically affiliated groups such as Panthic Weekly, Tapoban, Damdami Taksal and AKJ? You have zero supportive evidence, and for a self-claimed historian, that looks pretty sad. You harm your own credibility this way veer ji. Why don't you stop.




AKJ follows personalities and Sants, That is no different from Sant Mat. Panthic Weekly is a rumour mongering rag that is no better than the National Enquirer, or the Sun Newspaper (in the UK). They create rumours and attack people persoanly.

Credibility? I am not concerned with such trivia. I am entitled to my view as are you, and from what I have read at Tapoban and such sites it does no favours to Sikhism.


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> A lot of people don't really understand the complex issues involving the manipulation of Sikh faith and identity by the government of India. Sangat piare jio please watch the videos are they will provide a better perspective for understanding people like Kala Afghana, sant Nirankaris and the dissemination campaign by Indian intelligence agencies on Sikh religious teaching to divide Sikhs. Let's not forget the larger picture at stake here in all these delicate issues in the Panth today.


 
Which Narankari's are you refereing to?

I am sure you are aware there is a difference between Uslee and Naquli Narankari's? You are aware that the uslee Narankari's are responsible for Sikhism and much of its present day form?


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## Inder singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

<<<I do not believe in miracles, and the Guru's own conduct confirms this. They did not perform miracles and did not ascribe to them.>>>

Miracles are not caused.God does those for His devotees.You believe in Bani but miracle of sulhi khan is in Bani only.Have you not read that.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> <<<I do not believe in miracles, and the Guru's own conduct confirms this. They did not perform miracles and did not ascribe to them.>>>
> 
> Miracles are not caused.God does those for His devotees.You believe in Bani but miracle of sulhi khan is in Bani only.Have you not read that.


 

Post it here and we'll discuss it.


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## Inder singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl: sulhI qy nwrwiex rwKu ] (825-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
sulhee tay naaraa-in raakh.
The Lord saved me from Sulhi Khan.
sulhI kw hwQu khI n phucY sulhI hoie mUAw nwpwku ]1] rhwau ] (825-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
sulhee kaa haath kahee na pahuchai sulhee ho-ay moo-aa naapaak. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The emperor did not succeed in his plot, and he died in disgrace. ||1||Pause||
kwiF kuTwru Ksim isru kwitAw iKn mih hoie gieAw hY Kwku ] (825-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
kaadh kuthaar khasam sir kaati-aa khin meh ho-ay ga-i-aa hai khaak.
The Lord and Master raised His axe, and chopped off his head; in an instant, he was reduced to dust. ||1||
mMdw icqvq icqvq picAw ijin ricAw iqin dInw Dwku ]1] (825-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
mandaa chitvat chitvat pachi-aa jin rachi-aa tin deenaa Dhaak. ||1||
Plotting and planning evil, he was destroyed. The One who created him, gave him a push.
puqR mIq Dnu ikCU n rihE su Coif gieAw sB BweI swku ] (825-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
putar meet Dhan kichhoo na rahi-o so chhod ga-i-aa sabh bhaa-ee saak.
Of his sons, friends and wealth, nothing remains; he departed, leaving behind all his brothers and relatives.
khu nwnk iqsu pRB bilhwrI ijin jn kw kIno pUrn vwku ]2]18]104] (825-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
kaho naanak tis parabh balihaaree jin jan kaa keeno pooran vaak. ||2||18||104||
Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to God,


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## pk70 (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Inder Singh ji

That shabad doesnt advocate mircale, it is "thanks" offered to the Creator by Fifth Nanak


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## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



pk70 said:


> Inder Singh ji
> 
> That shabad doesnt advocate mircale, it is "thanks" offered to the Creator by Fifth Nanak


 
I concur. I cannot see whether the miracle is in this.

The real miracle as I see it in Sikhi was that Jacklas became Lions and the Sparrow managed to challenge the Hawk!!

That was enough of a miracle for me.

But who knows in another hundred years people will say our Guru's magically tranformed a Jackal into a lion and a sparrow into a hawk?:whisling:


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

*******PERSONAL REMARKS DELETED******


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> Harjas Kaur Khalsa: "_A lot of people don't really understand the complex issues involving the manipulation of Sikh faith and identity by the government of India. Sangat piare jio please watch the videos are they will provide a better perspective for understanding people like Kala Afghana, sant Nirankaris and the dissemination campaign by Indian intelligence agencies on Sikh religious teaching to divide Sikhs. Let's not forget the larger picture at stake here in all these delicate issues in the Panth today."_
> 
> Randip Singh: "Which Narankari's are you refereing to?
> 
> I am sure you are aware there is a difference between Uslee and Naquli Narankari's? You are aware that the uslee Narankari's are responsible for Sikhism and much of its present day form?"


After the fall of Maharanja Ranjit Singh's empire Baba Dyal Singh began a movement in resistence to the Sanatan absorption which was occuring within Sikhi. His movement became known as the Nirankari movement. Naquli (new fake Sikhs) Nirankaris are a sanatan organization associated with Arya Samaj. And the Usli Nirankaris associated with Singh Sabha. 

Obviously I am referring to the Sant Nirankaris of Gurbachan Singh which are under social boycott by Akal Takhat Sahib Ji for their massacre of the Gursikhs during Baisakhi 1978. And I am alluding to those government affiliated groups which are sanatan in character which have as their deliberate mission in collusion with Indian intelligence agencies, the eradication of Sikhism as a separate identity from the national (Hindu) character. We can see that historically, Sikhism even at the time of the kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the erosion of Gursikhi as had traditionally been taught. 

Gurmat Gursikhi is that Sikhism which predated all these historical movements and seeks to return the image of the Khalsa to that which was original to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The present day form of Sikhism is undeniably tainted by the Ghallughara. It's only absent from the current memory that Indian government went hunting amritdhari's in the 1980's and 1990's. It was called Operation Woodrose. Now Punjab is secularized, most youth cut hair, GOI sponsored sant deras which Hinduize Sikhism and undermine the separate identity of Sikhs abound. And anyone doubts a correlation when for 25 years there was a slaughter against the Sikh appearance?

*****personal remarks deleted*****


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## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Just working my way through this to see if I can follow along. 



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Let's debate issues rather than people indeed. KA as a public personality has become an issue within the Panth. By extension we can speak of his Missionary support groups. If you think you are sounding open-minded, it's rather hollow and hypocritical in my estimation. Since, KA's behaviors and utterances are _for the public record, _they thus become part of the debate.  Correct.
> 
> Once KA became a public figure, everything he utters are subject to debate. He forfeits any chance to claim libel or slander unless he can prove it in a court of law. Even if it is innuendo and hearsay. Slander in this context is a legal term, not as part of informal useage. .
> 
> ...



Opinion I thought.


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## Astroboy (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*






Somebrainwashing'sgoingonhere.
Thismightmakeyouforgetwhatissuesyouarediscussing.
Itismeanttopacifyyourthoughts
sothatyoucanrelaxthetensionandthinkstraight
toaddresstheissuesathand.


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## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

You are a kook!!! Very, very funny!!!


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> _The SANT NIRANKARIS are a recent phenomenon and they have nothing in common with the Nirankari sect of the Sikhs, except for the name. They are not even a schism split from it... These Nirankaris have no affiliation with any of the known religious traditions. In any case, they have nothing in common with Sikh religion and own no connection with it. They welcome to their fold people from all religions. In this way, they form a freemasonry of faiths held together by the person of the leader, who is believed by the faithful to be the incarnation of God... _
> 
> _He retains his Sikh form, as did his predecessors. In imitation of Guru Gobind Singh's Panj Piare (the Five Beloved of Sikh history), he has created his *Sat Sitare* (Seven Stars). The names of venerable Sikh personages from history are assigned to members of the leader's family and his followers... In Nirankari congregations Gurbani is frequently and copiously quoted, but with a deliberate slant. The purpose invariably is disapprobation of the Sikh way of life. Sikh Scriptures are quoted and expounded openly to suit the Nirankari bias. _
> 
> ...


 









Comparison of dera chief Ram Rahim during his new amrit ceremony, Jam-E-Insaa, with Sat Sitare in place of Panj Piare, is sadly the same amrit ceremony Gurbachana of sant Nirankaris tried to establish before he was killed in retaliation for his massacre of the 13 Gursikhs during baisakhi 1978. It isn't "open-mindedness" it's blindness to tolerate the government attack on Sikh identity which never seems to end.





Bodies of 13 Gursikhs killed by sant Nirankaris under Gurbachana, 1978.








Dera Sacha Sauda premis and comparison with RSS

Interesting a "peaceful ashram and dera" arms its premis with RSS style lathis as seen in this attack by the dera against an amritdhari protester. And all during the dera Sacha Sauda controversy, the GOI newsmedia could not stop from threatening that it was a resurgence of Sikh separatism, and that Sikh militants were being armed by Pakistani intelligence services. 





Saheed Bhai Kanwaljit Singh 
Murdered by supporters of Dera Sacha Sauda in May 2007.

And today while government and police continue to dismiss charges against wealthy dera Sacha Sauda head guru Ram Rahim, intelligence agencies continue to create false charges against Gursikhs. Please sangat piare jio, take a moment to do ardaas for 21 year old *Bibi Parveen Kaur Ji* who is being *tortured*in police custody, accused of a plot to blow herself up to assassinate Ram Rahim. It is another attempt by GOI to associate Sikhs with Al Queda and terrorism in the public mind. Ghalughara has not ended. GOI is still waging war against the Sikh identity.

Panthic Weekly: Police Take Revenge on Relative of Ex-Cop Turned Freedom Fighter
Family meeting with Parveen


If a government such as the Government of India engages in this degree of misinformation, deliberate infiltration, financial support of dubious sects and breakaway schismatic movements all under the umbrella of either Congress or Hindutva patronage... you do not question the motives of Kala Afghana, having been a high ranking member of the police intelligence services and making himself an associate of Bhindranwale during a time of militance? It doesn't strike you odd in the least that this man, is a former policemen suddenly becomes a prolific Sikh scholar challenging every basic tenet of Sikh religion in the clothes of a traditionalist amritdhari granthi?

It is beyond reason not to question Kala Afghana's background and motives against the backdrop of recent history and current events.


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## Astroboy (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Harjas Ji,

GOI has always used its major political weapon - divide and rule. After we've discussed these issues, let's find a solution to it. Historical events would give a clue of the rise and fall of empires. Our ideal is not just survival but Raj. Let's all put our heads together to gain Raj in the Punjab. GOI cannot do anything much if Khalsa intelligence is outside of India. It's even easier task with online resources like Videos. etc.

Here's a link which gives ample clues :
BBC News | SOUTH ASIAN | Has Hindu nationalism united or divided modern India?


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## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



aad0002 said:


> Just working my way through this to see if I can follow along.
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion I thought.



If Randip is sued, here is his defense :advocate:

*Fair comment on a matter of public interest*, statements made with an honest belief in their truth on a matter of public interest (official acts) are defenses to a defamation claim, even if such arguments are logically unsound; if a reasonable person could honestly entertain such an opinion, the statement is protected.
Defamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now which jurisdiction :whisling:


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




> Once KA became a public figure, everything he utters are subject to debate. He forfeits any chance to claim libel or slander unless he can prove it in a court of law. Even if it is innuendo and hearsay. Slander in this context is a legal term, not as part of informal useage..._make false and damaging statements about (someone) : they were accused of slandering the head of state._
> 
> Note in the examples that_ individuals are targets of slander, not organizations or states_. This is relevant to a later issue I raise.


 


> libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a newspaper, magazine or political organization) _open to a lawsuit for damages_ by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication need only be to one person, but_ it must be a statement which claims to be fact, and is not clearly identified as an opinion_.
> 
> While it is sometimes said that the person making the libelous statement must have been intentional and malicious, actually _it need only be obvious that the statement would do harm and is untrue_...
> 
> Most states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a lawsuit. The rules covering libel against a "public figure" (particularly a political or governmental person) are special, based on U. S. Supreme Court decisions...


At least in American case law, the only element which would prevent randip singh from being liable for published slander (libel) against recognized entities such as the Newspaper Panthic weekly or the organizations DDT, 3HO, AKJ would be that he expresses _his opinion_ and _clearly acknowledges as such_, and does not assert what amounts to a falsehood under authority of being a historian asserting a false fact.

_



I asked about this once before and did not get an answer from forum members. Panthic Weekly just like other news organizations and media is legally incorporated for tax. liabiilty, etc. I cannot seem to find out whether it is officially and/or legally associated with any religious organization and have searched its web site several times. Is it incorporated as a religious organization? If so how? Since Panthic Weekly has an op/ed section can we make the inference that it welcomes debate and disagreement with its point of view?

Click to expand...

_What does this have to do with anything?




> What do you mean by Panthicly affiliated? What do you mean by Panth, with a capital "P"? The panth is not a legal organization -- it is a group of people who share religious views, like-minded Sikhs -- with moral leadership offered to the people who are on the panth by more than one organization and individual. Akal Takt provides spiritual and religious leadership to the panth.
> 
> Explain how AKJ, Panthic Weekly, Tapoban, DDT are legally affiliated with the panth? Obviously *some *parts of the panth are affiliated with those groups. But these groups do not lead or define the panth *in its entirety*. There are Sikhs who have never even heard of AKJ or Tapoban.


The Panth, per se is that which is affiliated with and recognized by Akal Takht Sahib, as opposed to a breakaway splinter group which considers itself to have Sikh identity but does not bring itself under the organizational structure of Sikhism by recognizing the authority Akal Takht. Such would be Radhasoami, Naamdhari, or other private congregations or groups. Because Akal Takht doesn't consider these groups "Sikh" they don't fall under the discipline of Akal Takht Sahib. 


Regardless of DDT, AKJ, 3HO having the Panthic affiliation with Akal Takht, which is a religious designation giving them the right to be acknowledged as "Sikh," each of the above groups independantly as corporate bodies retains the right to recourse under law in the countries where they are registered. Even Akal Takht, like the Vatican, has lawyers and serves a corporate function. 


I only urge common sense and caution when maligning the reputation of corporate entities, particularly a newpaper. Because it is objectionable to destroy the public confidence in such organizations. Besides which, it just brings the Sikh spirit of the forum down to malign Sikh groups (Which is what I mean by Panthic with a capitol "P.")


> as the equivalent of _Radhasoami _and _Wahabi Islam?_ Get some credibility please. Stop brandishing dramatic opinion as fact.
> 
> Why should Randip ji be excluded? It doesn't seem fair.
> 
> ...


I was referencing randip singhs claim that we_ debate issues not people_, and by American Case Law, organizations. Because it was by inference that we discuss relevant factual issues and dont degenerate into mud-slinging for the sake of creating disharmony or over-extending into _actionable slanders_ which could harm the professional reputation of certain agencies, such as the newspaper Panthic Weekly. And no it is not entirely clear when randip singh makes his assertions whether he is speaking from the professional category as a "historian" which he so often reminds us, or individually as expressing a personal opinion. 

To say you disagree with the above organizations or even the institution of Akal Takht is altogether of a different nature than to assert Panthic Weekly is fraudulent in their newsreporting aand bases their stories on hearsay and innnuendo. Even AKJ as an_ incorporated entity_ could initiate legal action against a presumed published libel. It would seem not the direction we want to be taking as a forum which discusses issues rather than nindya. Most Sikh forums stop mud-slinging against Panthic Jathas. Why does the forum moderator of this one permit it, even argue in support of it's defense? What kind of fairness are you speaking of?

Because the accusations randip singh makes _against groups he does not agree with_ seem to cross the line of what is accepted by impugning the integrity of another and are unsupported statements of conjecture, I would ask that they be toned down, or qualified with supportable facts which would make them issues rather than statements of abuse. But what kind of reputation do we have as forum contributors to stoop so low as to engage in unsupported slander against Panthically affiliated Sikh groups? Why not discuss points of disagreement rather than organizations? Lets discuss keski as kakkar! Why impugn the AKJ?

What is randip singh being excluded from? No one thus far has commited slander or libel against Kala Afghana. Everything discussed has been supported either with lawsuit citation number or videotape of him directly. Should randip singh then be given blanket permission to smear and besmirch the reputations of Panthically recognized Sikh organizations on a public Sikh forum? And why and how would this be "fair?" 

When I make reference to Panthic or Panthically recognized groups it is because I have loyalty to the Sikh Panth and do not believe in dragging my brothers and sisters in the dirt. We have enough enemies already. I ask you as a moderator how impugning the professional reputation of incorporated legal entities is fair and acceptable in a discussion about the problems associated with KA?


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## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Let's debate issues rather than people indeed. KA as a public personality has become an issue within the Panth. By extension we can speak of his Missionary support groups. *******************
> 
> I reiterate, if anyone is guilty of actionable slander it is you randip singh. You throw wild accusations which are irresponsible and without verification. Sant Mat is an _organization_ affiliated with Radhasoami. You are deliberately inserting charged accusations to smear one group into another in a propagandistic way. Take care to use accuracy in your allegations. It is not a debate to undermine the public confidence in these legal entities, AKJ, Panthic Weekly, Tapoban, DDT, and Akal Takht Sahib Ji.
> 
> And you call yourself a historian. Are you this loose with all your facts? You broadly and without basis accuse Panthicly affiliated organizations as the equivalent of _Radhasoami _and _Wahabi Islam?_ ****************



...and your personal attacks don't impress me.

I am only going to say this one more time. 

STOP MAKING PERSONAL STATEMENTS.

Debate the Issues not the person.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

It is precisely because such groups as DDT and AKJ under Babbar Khalsa fought so valiantly and for so long against the slaughter of Sikhs and Sikh identity by the GOI, that the GOI has a personally vested interest in maligning and publically bringing down the character of these Panthic Jathas. To cite examples we can use the Air India bombing trial which ended in full acquittal. But not until after a 20 year news campaign which created hostility in Canada towards Sikhs with religious appearance by people like Kim Bolan who based all their information on Indian intelligence agencies.

This is why I seriously question the political motives of any person who _singles out_ certain Panthic Jathas for ridicule... most especially, DDT and AKJ. the fact that they are Panthic Jathas means they are a part of accepted Sikhism, and thus "sangat." And the fact that these _particular Jathas_ had the highest casualty rates and shaheeds during the Ghalughara alone should give them respect and credibility in the Panth. They remain targeted by GOI for disinformation, infiltration and corruption. It is absolutely appaling that Sikh people on a Sikh forum drag down the reputation of Sikh organizations. Especially ones that have paid a price in blood and torture to keep Sikhism a Sikh religion and not a puppet of Hindustan.

If you have disagreements, fine. Let's talk issues. But don't manipulate a website as a platform to slander Panthic Jathas. There are Sikh organizations which will initiate lawsuits to stop the defamation of Sikhs. 

Editorial: Sordid deals behind the Air India trial
Canadian Media’s Attack on Sikhs - Part 1 | BC Sikhs
Panthic Weekly: Sikh Orgs Agitate for Parveen Kaur's Freedom
Panthic Weekly: BJP now Pandering for Sirsa Sauda Cult Votes


> _Please report all web sites, books, papers, movies, documentaries, jokes and others defaming the Sikhs and the Sikh Nation for fact finding and deliberations by Anti-defamation Sikh Council for Freedom of Khalistan. Sikh Nation has experienced and suffered world wide abuse and defamation resulting from the false and malicious propaganda by the Hindu and Indian media for over two and half decades.... Anti-defamation Sikh Council for Freedom of Khalistan appeal to all Sikhs around the globe to take legal action against all sources including radical Hindu web sites and others who are involved in malicious propaganda and making jokes against the Sikhs. _
> 
> _Khalistan.net - Anti-Defamation Sikh Council for Freedom of Khalistan_


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## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

This thread reminds me of MCCarthyism.

Truly funny:

McCarthyism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Criticise Sant Mat Groups like AKJ, DDT, and GnSSJ and you are on a smear list of Panthic Weekly.

I guess it does not matter that I supported Bhindranwala in 1984. Does not matter I lost family in 1984 either.

But hey, as long as people get their pound of flesh.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




> ...and your personal attacks don't impress me.
> 
> I am only going to say this one more time.
> 
> ...


You accuse Panthic Weekly of fraudulent news reporting. You accuse AKJ of Wahabism and dividing the Sikh nation. You accuse AKJ of affiliation with Sant Mat... those are your own words. I make no attack on you. You make attack on yourself with your own words.  I no personal statements about your character.  I debate your accusations and slanders against Panthic Jathas all found in this thread.

STOP SLANDERING PANTHIC JATHAS!


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

_



			Criticise Sant Mat Groups like AKJ, DDT, and GnSSJ and you are on a smear list of Panthic Weekly.
		
Click to expand...

_


> _I guess it does not matter that I supported Bhindranwala in 1984. Does not matter I lost family in 1984 either._
> 
> _But hey, as long as people get their pound of flesh._


A lot of collaborators with the Indian government lost family in 1984 too. You aren't on a smear list of Panthic Weekly. I'm not affiliated with Panthic Weekly. *********** Macarthyism is a government sponsored witch hunt. We are talking about continued slanders by organizations pro-GOI which continue to malign SIKH JATHAS and in fact initiate government crackdowns on particular Jathas by feeding misinformation to United States and canadian governments.

***********************


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

_



 GOI cannot do anything much if Khalsa intelligence is outside of India. It's even easier task with online resources like Videos. etc.

Click to expand...

_Almost every major Sikh organization is infiltrated to some degree by GOI, including DDT and AKJ. And this is why a figure such as KA is so dangerous to Sikhism particularly in light of the interference by Arya Samaj, RSS, and the million GOI sponsored breakaway sects and deras. It's impossible to have an honest evaluation of a person like KA without also evaluating the historical, political and religious background of Indian government interference in Sikh religion. It has nothing to do with Sikh Macarthyism so much as Sikh survival and maintaining an independant identity. Sikh's aren't persecuting anyone. The central religious authority disciplined and censured KA as one of their own. They simply removed his platform to corrupt teachings of Sikh religion under guise as a teacher of Sikhism. 

The current War on Terror in US and Canada has provided a pretext for new attacks and media slanders on Sikh organizations and has singled out Taksali and AKJ sangats. Don't you remember the wide press coverage about the Canadian Nagar Kirtan in which a gatka akhara jacket logo was claimed to be the logo for ISYF and intelligence authorities had them under surveillence as a banned terrorist group? The GOI staged a diplomatic protest and called for Canadian authorities to crack down on Sikh terrorism because 1 float had a picture of Shaheed Bhai Talwinder Singh Parmar. They are trying desperately to reach their hand outside of India. Almost every explosion they blame on Babbar Khalsa allied with Al Queda. And with current trends in the US Government to allow arbitrary arrests and torture without charges or trial, the War on Terror can very easily take a decidedly anti-Sikh turn.  Someone like KA is just part of an on-going campaign to defame Sikh religion, Sikh institutions and Sikh organizations.

Jihad Watch: India police suspect jihadists, Sikh separatists in N. India cinema bomb
Sikh temple terror links alleged
TSS News: State Department Calls Sikhs Terrorists in Videos for Schools
Terrorized by 'War on Terror' - washingtonpost.com


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## Inder singh (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

To know this you need to raed sikh hsitory.How sukhi kahan was killed in na live brick oven.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> Which Narankari's are you refereing to?
> 
> I am sure you are aware there is a difference between Uslee and Naquli Narankari's? You are aware that the uslee Narankari's are responsible for Sikhism and much of its present day form?




she clearly stated "SANT" nirankaris...  also called false nirankaris or narkdharis.

i'm sure you've heard this term before.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> I think I may have read this. Get the source. You are however missing my point. Whether he feinted or didn't is irrelevant. We are arguing about an irrelevant point.




if it's irrelevant, why do KA and that ghaggha fellow make such a big issue over it?  could it be because they KNOW it will make many sikhs feel uncomfortable?  could it be because they're trying to sow dissension in the panth?
 



randip singh said:


> I do not believe in miracles, and the Guru's own conduct confirms this. They did not perform miracles and did not ascribe to them.




have you read the speeches of Sant Bhindranwale?  you say  you respect him...  he tells many stories of miracles, including the beheading and reviving of the panj piyare.
 



randip singh said:


> There is nothing insulting in calling Guru's Human Beings. They were just that. They were not Gods, Demi-God's, Alien BEINGS. They were Human beings, albeit Human Beings with a much higher level of conscience than the average human. Their bodies felt pain, they felt love, they felt anguish. What made them different from the average human was their ability to control their human emotions.
> 
> This game of playing miracles and one upmanship is the distasteful aspect I find in other faiths. The only way they can prove how great and religious their religious figures were is by stating how many miracles their own figures made. Luckily for us Sikhism does not play such a game.



you're right, our Gurus did not "play" miracles or use them for oneupmanship.  that's the whole point!  Guru sahib could have done anything.  but they never did anything for personal gain, only to help others.  

by calling them normal human beings, do you deny the jot of Waheguru passed from one guru to the next?  i've had this discussion recently, i can't remember if it was with you or not.  let me know if you need supporting gurbani.




randip singh said:


> I have a problem with all organisations that cause division in Sikhism, and in particular with those (like these), that have Vashnavite leanings.
> 
> AKJ is particular is responsible for a wave of intolerance, remanicent of Wahabism, that is plagueing Sikhism at the moment.




interesting.  i've found AKJ to be the MOST tolerant of all the punjabi sikhs i've met.  no other group of people is more accepting of any sikh, from any caste, nationality, etc...  as long as one is honestly trying to become a good Sikh and find Waheguru, they accept everyone with open arms.  AKJ smagaams are the ONLY Sikh events/gurdwaras i've been to, in the US, Canada, or India, where i'm not stared at like some sort of alien invader.  i've been welcomed into homes, given food, a place to sleep...  all of the things Sikhs are supposed to do, but don't when they see my "gori" face.  

the idea that they are intolerant or "wahabiest" is contrary to everything i have experienced.  so i guess i feel it a bit personally when someone makes these insulting comments about the most devoted group of Sikhs i have ever encountered.

i wonder if you're confusing tapoban.org with the Jatha in general?  there does seem to be a bit of a difference.
 



randip singh said:


> I normally try not to get too involved in debates outside Bani and Bani interpretation, however, I find witch hunts of individuals such as KA by organisation such as AKJ, newspapers like Panthic Weekly (should be renamed Pathetic Weekly) etc distasteful. Even more than KA, these organisations and institutions, by their autocratic actions are undermining the Sikhism.




*******

KA has INVITED this criticism by questioning some of the foundations of our faith.  he questions Guru.  sikhs are supposed to learn, to question, but not question Guru!  sikh isn't only a student, it's a student OF GURU.  i know you know this.  when the student questions his master, perhaps it's time to find a new master or go off on one's own.  rather than drag down all the other students with him.

i don't see the "autocratic" actions of AKJ.  they accept Sikhs of any caste, sect, colour, etc.  they accept Akal Takht as the temporal authority of Sikhs, as created by Guru Hargobind Sahib.   they don't tell the panth to follow their stricter rehet, they do that on their own.  they may invite others to join them, but they don't enforce it.  

AK and his ilk, on the other hand, flaunt their distain for Akal Takht.  who is dividing the panth?  i think the answer is clear.



randip singh said:


> I believe in giving people a fair chance, and demonising them and posting cases of sexual allegations are not the ways to do it. Lets debate the issue, not the person. It is not secret that Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers have an axe to grind against KA. I think they will stoop to any lengths to try and discredit him, rather than challenge his beliefs. I have not seen anyone actually debate what this fellow wrote. The same happened with that Professor Ghaggha fellow.



it's not only "Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers", it's the majority of the panth.  most sikhs i know in person don't even know who KA is, but when they read his positions...  they're just as against him as any jatha or group.  

i've seen multiple videos of debates, i've even posted a few.  i'm sure you can find some.  

of course, the fact that KA is banned from most gurdwaras in north america and is declared tankhaiya makes it difficult to debate him. 


btw, in your effort to debate the issues, not the people, ********************


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> _I believe in giving people a fair chance, and demonising them and posting cases of sexual allegations are not the ways to do it. Lets debate the issue, not the person. It is not secret that Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers have an axe to grind against KA. I think they will stoop to any lengths to try and discredit him, rather than challenge his beliefs. I have not seen anyone actually debate what this fellow wrote. The same happened with that Professor Ghaggha fellow._


I didn't even read this part. How can we give KA a fair chance when the authority isn't in our hands to decide on his case? His case has already been decided. How can we demonize KA when his own utterances speak for themselves regarding his position as not believing in Sikhism, yet dressing and playing the part of an amritdhari granthi? No one posted cases of sexual allegations. We posted a case of conviction which is a matter of public record and materially goes to the issue of his character and behavior as an amritdhari granthi in Gurdwara betraying his position of trust, and WHILE he was writing those objectionable books.

Furthermore, if someone in a position of trust, like a granthi or a Catholic priest is involved in a scandal involving sexual misconduct with congregants, then the sangat has a positive duty to warn about the objectionable actions of such a person. Evil thrives in the dark. So it's always best to keep the lights on. Otherwise more unsuspecting people could be hurt, not only by actions but by the hypocrisy in his pretense to be an amritdhari granthi who broke his amrit and doesn't even believe in the faith. Sikhism doesn't need imposters, nor does it need an atmosphere which allows imposters to be protected from exposure at the expense of those who are trusting. It's absolutely refreshing to see a religion esposing charlatans instead of hiding them like the scandal which befell the Catholic Church. 

Protecting evil never benefits anyone. If KA had done nothing more than abuse his trust as a granthi, it would be objectionable enough. No one has to demonize him. His own actions speak louder than his words.



> _I normally try not to get too involved in debates outside Bani and Bani interpretation, however, I find witch hunts of individuals such as KA by organisation such as AKJ, newspapers like Panthic Weekly (should be renamed Pathetic Weekly) etc distasteful. Even more than KA, these organisations and institutions, by their autocratic actions are undermining the Sikhism._


And in what way are AKJ and Panthic Weekly autocratic? They made no decisions regarding KA. the Panj Piare of Akal Takht Sahib did based on their review and interaction with KA. So if you have an accusation of being autocratic to make, stop hedging and blame Akal Takht. And in what way is esposing a charlatan and probable GOI intelligence operative undermining Sikhism? Yet the fellow who was convicted of sexual battery while acting in capacity of a granthi, who wrote books which undermined every tenet of Sikh religion while posing as a true believer is being "demonized" and the organizations which didn't tolerate his shenanigans are "distasteful?"

This is my legitimate question. If people don't believe in Sikh religion... why do they stay in it? It's a sincere question. I left Christian religion because I didn't believe in it. I don't go to Christian websites and bother Christians about their beliefs because I hate missionary propagandists. If KA and others do not respect the right of Sikh people to believe in Sikh religion, why don't they form their own dera and do their own thing? you see it's only missionaries and the GOI with a vested interest in preaching to Sikhs AGAINST Sikh religion. My answer to such people... get a grip, and go find a religion you do believe in. And stop bashing the Sikh Panth. 

We don't need molesters like KA, and we don't need people to erode confidence in Sikh faith. People who are dying from cancer don't need to hear, there is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no soul, there is no afterlife, you can't rely on Guru because he's only human and makes mistakes, Gurbani is a lie, etc. People believe in Sikh religion for their own intimate reasons and it's absolutely scandalous that people would publicly undermine that faith. They are worse than Christian and Muslim missionaries because they pretend to be Sikhs when they don't believe in Sikhism and undermine other Sikh's faith. 

It isn't a witch hunt because KA is free to do as he wants. He's only prevented from mascarading as a believer in Sikhism, ie., a SIKH. I feel so much safer, as a female, in a religion which exposes predators. I was in a Catholic convent. And I left everything after the priest molestation scandals were coming out. And I never looked back. That kind of hypocrisy is material to the faith and people lose faith when abusers betray their trust. It's kudos to that religion with enough integrity to defend the trusting, and not the abusers. What kind of religion is it where you can't protect your own women and children from harm. And I can't imagine a religion where you can't even respect your own beliefs but tolerate preachers who preach against them. 

The answer is simple, people who believe what KA preaches should just leave Sikh religion and stop trying to destroy the faith that others have in Sikhism. We don't need more "open-mindedness." We just need more healthy self-respect. And anyone who doesn't have respect for our beliefs should go find a faith he does believe in and respect and stop hurting all our sentiments.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



> _It is not secret that Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers have an axe to grind against KA. I think they will stoop to any lengths to try and discredit him, rather than challenge his beliefs._


_*Please Debate the Issue, Not the Person. Strictly Adhere to SPN Rules. Keep Your SPN Clean. Thank You*_

_****** No one is stooping to discredit a man convicted of sexual assault. He discredited himself. No one has an axe to grind when someone says Gurbani is just the utterances of an ordinary human who makes mistakes and that bani is untrue and ridicules people who believe in that bani. That person is an apostate to the Sikh religion and he was cast out by Akal Takht, not AKJ or Panthic Weekly. And AKJ and Panthic Weekly don't owe him any open-mindedness to tolerate him preaching hate of Sikhism to Sikhs.*_


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## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

***** does not know the episode of sulhi khana being burnt in a brick kiln.He says that it is not a miracle.

Remember God perfoms miracles for His bhagats when he wants.


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## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Jios

*I really did not want to do this. But a better understanding is needed of the forum rule* *Please Debate the Issue, Not the Person. Strictly Adhere to SPN Rules. Keep Your SPN Clean. Thank You. This rule pertains to and applies to situations where forum members attack other forum members verbally. Attacks includes but is not limited to all kinds of name-calling, accusations and allegations of moral, religious, ethical, mental, emotoinal, personal, political, financial, astrological, and physical deformity or unfitness to express an opinion. *

The rule in no way discourages forum members from being as critical as they feel they must be of movements, issues, groups. public figures, works of art and literature, organizations, philosophies, religions, political parties, and the like. Just as long as threats are not made, personal hostility is kept in check, and laws pertaining to the Internet are not broken, and there is no obvious intent to mislead others through factual inaccuracies. Many forums screen comments before they are posted. SPN does not do that. Our philosophy places on each member the responsibility to police his/her own words and arguments, to give everyone credit for being able to decide. 

In this debate *no one *so far has taken the side of KA. All the differences of opinion have been about interpretations of his words and actions. Yet, the slightest hint of disagreement has led to invective. 

*A warning has been issued. And so now this rule will be enforced. 
*


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## Astroboy (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Jios,

If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of freedom of speech, that means you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise.


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## Astroboy (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Harjas Ji,

I see you very concerned about the Sikhs esp in Punjab. This article is a must read to understand various similarities affecting Russia then and Punjab now.

Soviet conception of human rights
The Soviet conception of human rights was very different from conceptions prevalent in the West. According to Western legal theory, "it is the individual who is the beneficiary of human rights which are to be asserted _against_ the government", whereas Soviet law claimed exactly the opposite [2]. The Soviet state was considered as the source of human rights. Therefore, Soviet law rejected the Western concept of the "rule of law" as the belief that law should be more than just instrument of politics. The political and civil rights were considered meaningless without basic "economic rights", which are the provision of basic health care, adequate nutrition, and the right to an education, rather than liberal property rights. Finally, each individual had to sacrifice his rights and desires to fulfill the needs of the collective.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



jasleen_kaur said:


> if it's irrelevant, why do KA and that ghaggha fellow make such a big issue over it? could it be because they KNOW it will make many sikhs feel uncomfortable? could it be because they're trying to sow dissension in the panth?




To me its irrelevant, but I would still want to know what their reasoning behind this? What were they challenging? Were they challenging the belief held by some that our Guru's were God's? I would like to know their motivation? Btw how do you know their intention is to make Sikhs uncomfortable? Or sow dissention in the Paanth?




jasleen_kaur said:


> have you read the speeches of Sant Bhindranwale? you say you respect him... he tells many stories of miracles, including the beheading and reviving of the panj piyare.




Just because you respect someone does not mean you hand on every word. I respect Bhaghat Singh, but I don't believe in Communism like he did.




jasleen_kaur said:


> you're right, our Gurus did not "play" miracles or use them for oneupmanship. that's the whole point! Guru sahib could have done anything. but they never did anything for personal gain, only to help others.




I kind of agree.



jasleen_kaur said:


> by calling them normal human beings, do you deny the jot of Waheguru passed from one guru to the next? i've had this discussion recently, i can't remember if it was with you or not. let me know if you need supporting gurbani.




What has the physical human body got to do with the soul? This outer shell just temporarily houses us. The Guru's physical body has no bearing on whether the Jyot passed or not. The Jyot was lit by one Guru to the next.





jasleen_kaur said:


> interesting. i've found AKJ to be the MOST tolerant of all the punjabi sikhs i've met. no other group of people is more accepting of any sikh, from any caste, nationality, etc... as long as one is honestly trying to become a good Sikh and find Waheguru, they accept everyone with open arms. AKJ smagaams are the ONLY Sikh events/gurdwaras i've been to, in the US, Canada, or India, where i'm not stared at like some sort of alien invader. i've been welcomed into homes, given food, a place to sleep... all of the things Sikhs are supposed to do, but don't when they see my "gori" face.




That’s very good. They are doing something right.



jasleen_kaur said:


> the idea that they are intolerant or "wahabiest" is contrary to everything i have experienced. so i guess i feel it a bit personally when someone makes these insulting comments about the most devoted group of Sikhs i have ever encountered.
> 
> i wonder if you're confusing tapoban.org with the Jatha in general? there does seem to be a bit of a difference.




I think there is a hardcore minority I have encountered in groups like AKJ, GNSSJ, DDT etc that seem to be intolerant of the views of other groups and even mainstream Sikhism.

I think we need to step back and ensure we are not going down the line of what other faiths have. The fanaticism in Christianity that resulted in Crusades, Spanish Inquisitions>>>the fanaticism in Islam, Sharia Law, Wahabism etc etc, >>>>these things are what we as Sikhs can learn from and ensure Sikhism does not end up down that route.






jasleen_kaur said:


> KA has INVITED this criticism by questioning some of the foundations of our faith. he questions Guru. sikhs are supposed to learn, to question, but not question Guru! sikh isn't only a student, it's a student OF GURU. i know you know this. when the student questions his master, perhaps it's time to find a new master or go off on one's own. rather than drag down all the other students with him.




There have been instances when the Paanth have overuled their Guru. A famous incident where the 5 beloved made the 10th Master follow their dictat.

I do however see your point. I would ask, has KA challenged the foundations of Sikhism, or challenged the view of some Sikhs, namely AKJ followers?



jasleen_kaur said:


> i don't see the "autocratic" actions of AKJ. they accept Sikhs of any caste, sect, colour, etc. they accept Akal Takht as the temporal authority of Sikhs, as created by Guru Hargobind Sahib. they don't tell the panth to follow their stricter rehet, they do that on their own. they may invite others to join them, but they don't enforce it.
> 
> AK and his ilk, on the other hand, flaunt their distain for Akal Takht. who is dividing the panth? i think the answer is clear.




Come on. AKJers I know clearly show their disdain for the Rehat Maryada and the Akal Takht. They continually challenge. Bhai Randhir is a classic example of this.

KA I don't think has any disdain but has been clumsy in his points he is making. Going through the main things he has said I can't find anything so offensive I would want to excommunicate him. What we should have done is had a minuted debate with our best scholars and him, and let the Paanth decide.







jasleen_kaur said:


> it's not only "Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers", it's the majority of the panth. most sikhs i know in person don't even know who KA is, but when they read his positions... they're just as against him as any jatha or group.
> 
> i've seen multiple videos of debates, i've even posted a few. i'm sure you can find some.




I've never been for him or against him. Reason why? I don't trust what is going on with our Sikh institutions. I certainly do not trust the AKJ. The majority of people I know have the same opinion as me. I am not affiliated to any Jatha or organisation. I am just an ordinary Sikh trying to make sense of this mad world.



jasleen_kaur said:


> of course, the fact that KA is banned from most gurdwaras in north america and is declared tankhaiya makes it difficult to debate him.




Shame really. I don't think it's healthy for Sikhism to have people doing what they want on the outside. Bring them in and see what they have to say.



jasleen_kaur said:


> btw, in your effort to debate the issues, not the people, ********************




I don't know what you wrote but I am sure it wasn't nice. I am disappointed at the lack of a more mature attituted.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

A great example of Pulizer Prize Journalism from Panthic Weekly or not?

Panthic Weekly: Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto

_According to several eyewitnesses interviewed by Panthic Weekly, Ghagga became so uneasy that he asked for drinking water three times. Witnesses stated that his hands were trembling and he was perspiring heavily throughout the debate. It was clear that the fierce 'debater' Ghagga had lost his bearing._

Who were these eyewitnesses? Dam I should stop drinking water, when I lecture for an hour I need at least two glasses of water? I would be trembling if I knew their were nutcases present who had tried to attack me before present? (actually I wouldn't tremble probably because I am nuttier than the nutcases).

_Ghagga lost the entire debate on all subjects and afterwards some neutral Singhs insisted that another debate be set at a public venue. The date was set for October 1, 2006 at 9am, but Ghagga never showed up. Via third parties, and with great difficulty, he was persuaded to debate and finally the debate was set up for about 4 hours later at 1pm._

Who says he lost the deabte? Who were these neutral 3rd parties? I watched the Ghagga debate video and he doesn't seem to have lost his nerve, if anything he's quite defiant?

_It is interesting to note that the Panthic Singhs led by Kulbir Singh did not have any prior public debating experience, yet they were successful in defeating someone such as Ghagga who has spent his entire life in such controversies. Instead of debating on the contentious issues, Ghagga kept digressing and changing subjects. This further proved that he could no longer defend himself or his philosophy._

Who says Kulbir Singh was sucessful? Who says he kept digressing? Maybe he was talking about the backround to issues? My experience leads me to believe that most Sikhs (many Panthic ones), are not even aware of the basics of Sikh History.

_According to eyewitnesses, having lost twice on all subjects, Ghagga left as a very upset man. He has declined to debate any further. His skills seems more fitted for an arguer than a true debater._

Who are these eyewitnesses that keep appearing? Werer they holding the camera? Who are these mysterious eyewitness people?

_Subsequent to this debate, the Panthic Singhs had challenged him for another debate and the challenge was published in the Punjabi Post, a Toronto based newspaper. However, the man who boasted so much on the radio waves that not a single Singh in Toronto can debate him, had now become silent. Publicly it is now clear that these so-called scholars are merely paper tigers._

Maybe he has gone silent because he didn't want to be physically assaulted?

Now lets see the same debate in Sikh Times:

_The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated_

Makes me think.....hmmm?

Panthic Weekly or Sikh Times.....I would rather read the latter.

some more views:

Tuhady Pattar (Your view)


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

_



It is not secret that Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers have an axe to grind against KA. I think they will stoop to any lengths to try and discredit him, rather than challenge his beliefs.

Click to expand...

_In the above direct quote, a particular moderator is alleging: "_I __think they (AKJ) will *stoop to any lengths *to *try and discredit him*, rather than challenge his beliefs."_

********************************************



> In this debate *no one *so far has taken the side of KA. All the differences of opinion have been about interpretations of his words and actions. Yet, the slightest hint of disagreement has led to invective.


Yet, the _*slightest hint* of disagreement_ has led to_*invective*._ 

I*************************************************

_Anyone who goes around erasing words can make them say anything_ *********************************


 _Yet, the slightest hint of disagreement has led to *invective.* _
_Noun 1: *invective* - abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will. Language characterized by insult or abuse. Vituperation, vitriol. Insult, revilement, vilification, abuse - a rude expression intended to offend or hurt; &quot;when a student made a stupid mistake he spared them no abuse&quot;; &quot;they yelled insults at the visiting team.&quot;

_ [/quote]_Here you are erasing words where we name the moderator so that he can own his statements very clearly. No one has spoken rudely, with venom, with vitriol, with bitter deep-seated ill-will in a way to cause anquish. ************************************************* _
   **********************************Yet by his very words and deeds, it is clear KA accuses himself, and Akal Takht Sahib Ji Panj Piare have declared him exscommunicated, not AKJ sangat. *******************


> If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like.


*The only people who have no freedom of speech here are those defending AKJ sangat.* *Why is AKJ being personally attacked over a thread questioning the behaviors of KA? Why is AKJ being scapegoated to avoid the reality that Akal Takht is the sole authority regarding determination of his excommunication?* These are groundless attacks which are unjustified, _repetitively claimed without evidence_ to back them up. It is a _diversionary tactic_ to smear the reputation of a Panthic Jatha in order to create a smokescreen defense for a declared apostate.

  ***************************************

_



In this debate *no one *so far has taken the side of KA. All the differences of opinion have been about interpretations of his words and actions.

Click to expand...

__**************************************************_I think there is a hardcore minority I have encountered in groups like AKJ, GNSSJ, DDT etc that seem to be intolerant of the views of other groups and even mainstream Sikhism. I think we need to step back and ensure we are not going down the line of what other faiths have. The fanaticism in Christianity that resulted in Crusades, Spanish Inquisitions>>>the fanaticism in Islam, Sharia Law, Wahabism etc etc, >>>>these things are what we as Sikhs can learn from and ensure Sikhism does not end up down that route."
 And he makes these spurious attacks that mainstream Panthic Jathas which support the authority of Akal Takht are like Crusades and Spanish Inquisition, Sharia and Whabism, Fanaticism, etc. ***********************


 In his last letter written to Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, Jathedar, Akal Takht, Mr Kala Afghana had used derogatory language describing him as a ‘liar’ and ‘maha pappi’. Taking serious note of the language used, Jathedar Vedanti said it was unpardonable. 
The Sikh high priests said if Mr Kala Afghana failed to appear before Akal Takht by July 10, he would be punished as per the Sikh ‘maryada’. In such a case Mr Kala Afghana could be declared excommunicated from the Panth. 
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News
[/quote]*Sri Akal Takht Sahib Warns Kala Afghana Supporters*
http://www.khalsaalliance.org/news.php?pagename=index&article=13
*Sri Akal Takht Calls For Boycott Of Ghugga*
Shinda’s Spot Akaal Takhat Calls for Boycott of Ghagga
*Boycott In Effect*
Panthic Weekly: AKAL TAKHT SUMMONS GHAGGA AND PARTY, Boycott In Effect


By defending and repeatedly airing the views of a censured apostate as "reasonable," attempting to whitewash his tankiya and paint it in a better light by blaming Panthic Jathas for _falsely impugning him_, for attacking the credibility of Akal Takht for excommunication of Kala Afghana "unreasonable," for defending position of Ghugga, etc, all censured supporters of KA. ***************************


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*




> btw, in your effort to debate the issues, not the people, ********************
> 
> I don't know what you wrote but I am sure it wasn't nice. I am disappointed at the lack of a more mature attituted.
> 
> __________________


**********************************************


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

_



According to several eyewitnesses interviewed by Panthic Weekly, Ghagga became so uneasy that he asked for drinking water three times. Witnesses stated that his hands were trembling and he was perspiring heavily throughout the debate. It was clear that the fierce 'debater' Ghagga had lost his bearing.

Click to expand...





Who were these eyewitnesses? Dam I should stop drinking water, when I lecture for an hour I need at least two glasses of water? I would be trembling if I knew their were nutcases present who had tried to attack me before present? (actually I wouldn't tremble probably because I am nuttier than the nutcases).

Click to expand...

_More evidence of abusiveness and lack of impartiality, hurting the sentiments of Sikhs such as myself to wage personal attack against the Tapoban Singhs calling them *"nutcases"* and allege without evidence they tried to attack Ghugga physically and thus made him tremble."

*****YOU DO NOT REPRESENT ALL SIKH SENTIMENT. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION. THATS IT.********


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

_*



My experience leads me to believe that most Sikhs (many Panthic ones), are not even aware of the basics of Sikh History.

Panthic Weekly: Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto


Click to expand...

*_ 
_



Subsequent to this debate, the Panthic Singhs had challenged him for another debate and the challenge was published in the Punjabi Post, a Toronto based newspaper. However, the man who boasted so much on the radio waves that not a single Singh in Toronto can debate him, had now become silent. Publicly it is now clear that these so-called scholars are merely paper tigers.

Maybe he has gone silent because he didn't want to be physically assaulted?

Click to expand...

_********************************


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## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Aad002

I did not state anthing incorrect.People who do not know the history of sulhi khan are casting doubts on Gurbani.A sikh calls a spade a spade.

A complete court judgement has been cited here.yet some persons say that it is not authentic.And you say that nobody is supporting kala here.What does this mean?


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## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Kala afghana attacks in the worst possible way all established sikh traditions including respect for SGGS,kirtan maryada,sikh marriage ceremony,Harmandir sahib,struggle of sikhs in 1990s,sikh rehat maryada,ardas and banis of nitnem.

Does the gentleman posting above knows this?He was called to akal takhat to ask him about clarification on these issues.He did not go on one pretext or the other.

The gentleman says that he was not engaged in discussion.Again very incorrect statement.

See FORT: PANTH KHALSA


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## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

see these videos Kala afghana in debate

YouTube - Sants Vs Afgana Part 1 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)

YouTube - Sants Vs Afgana Part 2 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)


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## Admin (Apr 1, 2008)

*Please Note : As this topic covers a wide range of issues relating to Kala Afgana, the person, the topic heading has been generalized to avoid any mis-representation to a new reader. Please be informed.*


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## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2008)

Thank you for pointing this out, Aman ji.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> A great example of Pulizer Prize Journalism from Panthic Weekly or not?
> 
> Panthic Weekly: Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto
> 
> ...


 
Ok.

Is anyone here actually willing to debate the issues?

The point here in the quotation above is why is there such a disparity between Panthic Weekly and The Sikh Times.

As a neutral I see The Sikh Times coverage far more balanced.

Please lets debate issues in a civilised manner.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> Aad002
> 
> I did not state anthing incorrect.People who do not know the history of sulhi khan are casting doubts on Gurbani.A sikh calls a spade a spade.
> 
> A complete court judgement has been cited here.yet some persons say that it is not authentic.And you say that nobody is supporting kala here.What does this mean?


 
Hi Inder you posted a Tukh from Bani stating that it was a miracle that had been stated in Bani. Two of us stated that it did not represent a miracle. Thats all. It is not casting doubts on Bani. Emotional comments like that often rouse rabbles and cause violence. So we must be careful to debate in a calm rational manner.

There is only one miracle and that is of finding God within you. Page 543:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik&shy;oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 
*ਹਰਿ **ਕਾ **ਏਕੁ **ਅਚੰਭਉ **ਦੇਖਿਆ **ਮੇਰੇ **ਲਾਲ **ਜੀਉ **ਜੋ **ਕਰੇ **ਸੁ **ਧਰਮ **ਨਿਆਏ **ਰਾਮ **॥** 
हरि का एकु अच्मभउ देखिआ मेरे लाल जीउ जो करे सु धरम निआए राम ॥ 
Har kā ėk acẖambẖa&shy;o ḏėkẖi&shy;ā mėrė lāl jī&shy;o jo karė so ḏẖaram ni&shy;ā&shy;ė rām. 
I have seen one miracle of the Lord, O my Dear Beloved - whatever He does is righteous and just.* 
ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਓਨੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਸਬਾਏ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
हरि रंगु अखाड़ा पाइओनु मेरे लाल जीउ आवणु जाणु सबाए राम ॥ 
Har rang akẖāṛā pā&shy;i&shy;on mėrė lāl jī&shy;o āvaṇ jāṇ sabā&shy;ė rām. 
The Lord has fashioned this beautiful arena, O my Dear Beloved, where all come and go. 
ਆਵਣੁ ਤ ਜਾਣਾ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਮੇਦਨਿ ਸਿਰਜੀਆ ॥ 
आवणु त जाणा तिनहि कीआ जिनि मेदनि सिरजीआ ॥ 
Āvaṇ ṯa jāṇā ṯineh kī&shy;ā jin mėḏan sirjī&shy;ā. 
The One who fashioned the world causes them to come and go. 
ਇਕਨਾ ਮੇਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਹਲਿ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਇਕਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਫਿਰਦਿਆ ॥ 
इकना मेलि सतिगुरु महलि बुलाए इकि भरमि भूले फिरदिआ ॥ 
Iknā mėl saṯgur mahal bulā&shy;ė ik bẖaram bẖūlė firḏi&shy;ā. 
Some meet the True Guru - the Lord invites them into the Mansion of His Presence; others wander around, deluded by doubt. 
ਅੰਤੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਏ ॥ 
अंतु तेरा तूंहै जाणहि तूं सभ महि रहिआ समाए ॥ 
Anṯ ṯėrā ṯūŉhai jāṇeh ṯūŉ sabẖ meh rahi&shy;ā samā&shy;ė. 
You alone know Your limits; You are contained in all. 
ਸਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਆਏ ॥੧॥ 
सचु कहै नानकु सुणहु संतहु हरि वरतै धरम निआए ॥१॥ 
Sacẖ kahai Nānak suṇhu sanṯahu har varṯai ḏẖaram ni&shy;ā&shy;ė. ||1|| 
Nanak speaks the Truth: listen, Saints - the Lord dispenses even-handed justice. ||1|| 
ਆਵਹੁ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਾਧੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
आवहु मिलहु सहेलीहो मेरे लाल जीउ हरि हरि नामु अराधे राम ॥ 
Āvhu milhu sahėlīho mėrė lāl jī&shy;o har har nām arāḏẖė rām. 
Come and join me, O my beautiful dear beloveds; let's worship the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. 
ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਾਧੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
करि सेवहु पूरा सतिगुरू मेरे लाल जीउ जम का मारगु साधे राम ॥ 
Kar sėvhu pūrā saṯgurū mėrė lāl jī&shy;o jam kā mārag sāḏẖė rām. 
Let's serve the Perfect True Guru, O my dear beloveds, and clear away the Path of Death. 
ਮਾਰਗੁ ਬਿਖੜਾ ਸਾਧਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
मारगु बिखड़ा साधि गुरमुखि हरि दरगह सोभा पाईऐ ॥ 
Mārag bikẖ&shy;ṛā sāḏẖ gurmukẖ har ḏargeh sobẖā pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
Having cleared the treacherous path, as Gurmukhs, we shall obtain honor in the Court of the Lord. 
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਬਿਧਾਤੈ ਧੁਰਹੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਰੈਣਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ 
जिन कउ बिधातै धुरहु लिखिआ तिन्हा रैणि दिनु लिव लाईऐ ॥ 
Jin ka&shy;o biḏẖāṯai ḏẖarahu likẖi&shy;ā ṯinĥā raiṇ ḏin liv lā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, lovingly focus their consciousness on the Lord, night and day. 
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਛੁਟਾ ਜਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਾਧੇ ॥ 
हउमै ममता मोहु छुटा जा संगि मिलिआ साधे ॥ 
Ha&shy;umai mamṯā moh cẖẖutā jā sang mili&shy;ā sāḏẖė. 
Self-conceit, egotism and emotional attachment are eradicated when one joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. 
ਜਨੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਾਧੇ ॥੨॥ 
जनु कहै नानकु मुकतु होआ हरि हरि नामु अराधे ॥२॥ 
Jan kahai Nānak mukaṯ ho&shy;ā har har nām arāḏẖė. ||2|| 
Says servant Nanak, one who contemplates the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is liberated. ||2|| 
ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਹੋਇ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਜੇਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
कर जोड़िहु संत इकत्र होइ मेरे लाल जीउ अबिनासी पुरखु पूजेहा राम ॥ 
Kar joṛihu sanṯ ikaṯar ho&shy;ė mėrė lāl jī&shy;o abẖināsī purakẖ pūjėhā rām. 
Let's join hands, O Saints; let's come together, O my dear beloveds, and worship the imperishable, Almighty Lord. 
ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਖੋਜੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਅਰਪੇਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
बहु बिधि पूजा खोजीआ मेरे लाल जीउ इहु मनु तनु सभु अरपेहा राम ॥ 
Baho biḏẖ pūjā kẖojī&shy;ā mėrė lāl jī&shy;o ih man ṯan sabẖ arpėhā rām. 
I sought Him through uncounted forms of adoration, O my dear beloveds; now, I dedicate my entire mind and body to the Lord. 
ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕੇਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਪੂਜ ਚੜਾਵਏ ॥ 
मनु तनु धनु सभु प्रभू केरा किआ को पूज चड़ावए ॥ 
Man ṯan ḏẖan sabẖ parabẖū kėrā ki&shy;ā ko pūj cẖaṛāva&shy;ė. 
The mind, body and all wealth belong to God; so what can anyone offer to Him in worship? 
ਜਿਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅੰਕਿ ਸਮਾਵਏ ॥ 
जिसु होइ क्रिपालु दइआलु सुआमी सो प्रभ अंकि समावए ॥ 
Jis ho&shy;ė kirpāl ḏa&shy;i&shy;āl su&shy;āmī so parabẖ ank samāv&shy;ė. 
He alone merges in the lap of God, unto whom the Merciful Lord Master becomes compassionate. 
ਭਾਗੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਹੋਇ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਲਿ ਸਨੇਹਾ ॥ 
भागु मसतकि होइ जिस कै तिसु गुर नालि सनेहा ॥ 
Bẖāg masṯak ho&shy;ė jis kai ṯis gur nāl sanėhā. 
One who has such pre-ordained destiny written on his forehead, comes to bear love for the Guru. 
ਜਨੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੂਜੇਹਾ ॥੩॥ 
जनु कहै नानकु मिलि साधसंगति हरि हरि नामु पूजेहा ॥३॥ 
Jan kahai Nānak mil sāḏẖsangaṯ har har nām pūjėhā. ||3|| 
Says servant Nanak, joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, let's worship the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||3|| 
ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਖੋਜਤ ਹਮ ਫਿਰੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਅੜਾ ਘਰਿ ਆਏ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
दह दिस खोजत हम फिरे मेरे लाल जीउ हरि पाइअड़ा घरि आए राम ॥ 
Ḏah ḏis kẖojaṯ ham firė mėrė lāl jī&shy;o har pā&shy;i&shy;aṛā gẖar ā&shy;ė rām. 
I wandered around, searching in the ten directions, O my dear beloveds, but I came to find the Lord in the home of my own being. 
ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਏ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
हरि मंदरु हरि जीउ साजिआ मेरे लाल जीउ हरि तिसु महि रहिआ समाए राम ॥ 
Har manḏar har jī&shy;o sāji&shy;ā mėrė lāl jī&shy;o har ṯis meh rahi&shy;ā samā&shy;ė rām. 
The Dear Lord has fashioned the body as the temple of the Lord, O my dear beloveds; the Lord continues to dwell there. 
ਸਰਬੇ ਸਮਾਣਾ ਆਪਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇਆ ॥ 
सरबे समाणा आपि सुआमी गुरमुखि परगटु होइआ ॥ 
Sarbė samāṇā āp su&shy;āmī gurmukẖ pargat ho&shy;i&shy;ā. 
The Lord and Master Himself is pervading everywhere; through the Guru, He is revealed. 
ਮਿਟਿਆ ਅਧੇਰਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਾਠਾ ਅਮਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਚੋਇਆ ॥ 
मिटिआ अधेरा दूखु नाठा अमिउ हरि रसु चोइआ ॥ 
Miti&shy;ā aḏẖėrā ḏūkẖ nāṯẖā ami&shy;o har ras cẖo&shy;i&shy;ā. 
Darkness is dispelled, and pains are removed, when the sublime essence of the Lord's Ambrosial Nectar trickles down. 
ਜਹਾ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਭ ਠਾਏ ॥ 
जहा देखा तहा सुआमी पारब्रहमु सभ ठाए ॥ 
Jahā ḏėkẖā ṯahā su&shy;āmī pārbarahm sabẖ ṯẖā&shy;ė. 
Wherever I look, the Lord and Master is there. The Supreme Lord God is everywhere. 
*ਜਨੁ **ਕਹੈ **ਨਾਨਕੁ **ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ **ਮਿਲਾਇਆ **ਹਰਿ **ਪਾਇਅੜਾ **ਘਰਿ **ਆਏ **॥੪॥੧॥** 
जनु कहै नानकु सतिगुरि मिलाइआ हरि पाइअड़ा घरि आए ॥४॥१॥ 
Jan kahai Nānak saṯgur milā&shy;i&shy;ā har pā&shy;i&shy;aṛā gẖar ā&shy;ė. ||4||1|| 
Says servant Nanak, meeting the True Guru, I have found the Lord, within the home of my own being. ||4||1|| 
*

No one is doubting the court judgement, but what we are debating is wha he is to allegedly have said. I do, however, find the whole episode a bit fishy. First this fellow is attacked by AKJ, then he is excommunicated under political pressure, then he files a case against someone who accused him of sexual assault and a counter case is filed against him. All this sounds very strange.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Issues Raised So Far*

1) Sexual Misconduct and Counter claim by GSKA

2) What GSKA actually wrote and was it that bad?

3) GSKA's criticism of Bhai Randhir Singh and AKJ response to GSKA.

4) AKJ sites and Panthic Weekly - reliable sources of information or not?

5) Vashnavite influences of some Sikh groups?

6) Inder Singh Ghagga's debate coverage and subsequent excommunication?

7) Did Guru perform miracles eg bring dead to life?

any others?


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

Randip

Do you know the episode of sulhi khan.As you seem not to know that .I post it further to give some idea.

 Prithi Chand , in connivance with Sulhi Khan, had hatched a conspiracy to imprison Guru Arjun Sahib Ji. Guru Arjun Dev Ji makes reference of one such attack on him:
Raag Asa Ang 371

At first was mooted sending a communication
Secondly, was given the advice to dispatch two messengers,
The third counsel was some other effort to make.
But discarding al else, Lord! On thee I meditated.
With this resolve I was in supreme bliss, freed from anxiety and in poise rested.
Destroyed were foes and ill-wishers and joy I  obtained.
The Holy Preceptor thus has instructed me :
This life and body all is the Lord’s property.
All by thy might alone happens,
Thou my shelter, my tribunal of justice.
Discarding Thee Lord! Where may we go?
None else They equal.

When Sulhi Khan was on the way to Ramdaspur to harm Guru Arjun Sahib Ji , his horse got frightened by the accidental flight of a bird and ran into a live brick kiln. Sulhi Kan fell into the jaws of fire and was reduced to ashes. Guru Arjun Sahib Ji expressed a sense of gratitude to Lord thus:

Raag Bilawal And 825

Lord! From Sulhi grant protection,
Unable to accomplish anything is Sulhi,
An unclean death he has met.
The Lord brandishing the axe cut his head cut off,
And instant dust he became,,
Contemplating evil is he burnt, the Creator to his death has pushed him.


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

Randip 

Kala afghana did not spare anybody.To say that he attacked only BHai Sahib Randhir singh is not a correct statement.

He attacked Bhai verr singh ji,Bhai Gurdas ji,Guru Gobind singh and his banis.

Did you watch those videos to know his scholarship?If not please view those.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Randip
> 
> Do you know the episode of sulhi khan.As you seem not to know that .I post it further to give some idea.
> 
> ...


 
What you are stating is that Sulhi Khan got his just deserves. Punished by the hand of God? I fail to see the miracle in this?

SikhSpectrum.com Monthly. The Legacy of Guru Arjun Devji




Inder singh said:


> Randip
> 
> Kala afghana did not spare anybody.To say that he attacked only BHai Sahib Randhir singh is not a correct statement.
> 
> ...


 
Ok lets debate exactly what he did and did not spare. So far all I can see is a collectiion of various abusive terms used at GSKA rather than debates as to what he actually wrote. Present your case of exactly what he wrote and let us debate it. We cannot go any further by just saying GSKA is a "k*nj*r". This forum is for sane discussion.


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*****USE A CIVIL TONGUE*****


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

Randip singh read this to know about sulhi khan instead of giving us irrelevant link.

Philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib: ` - Google Book Search


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

​
****deleted****

post salients points instead of masses of text.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Randip singh read this to know about sulhi khan instead of giving us irrelevant link.
> 
> Philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib: ` - Google Book Search


 
Please tell me what is irrelevant about this link?

Please state where the miracle has taken place?

Does this incident not state basics of Sikhi, i.e. what goes around comes around?


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> I don't know what you wrote but I am sure it wasn't nice. I am disappointed at the lack of a more mature attituted.





i assure you i did not say a single thing wrong.  i do not know why it was moderated.  i would love to hear about it from the moderator who did it.

i do not know why they are trying to make me look bad when we're simply having a discussion about things we happen to disagree on.

MODS?  any idea WHY just enough of my post was deleted to make me look bad?


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



randip singh said:


> Ok.
> 
> Is anyone here actually willing to debate the issues?
> 
> ...



i'm not sure it's possible to discuss anything here, let alone debate it...  the moderators seem to delete every other post, making it pretty much unreadable.

unless the mods can come forward and explain their actions (which seem biased towards a few specific individuals), i cannot continue this discussion.


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

***PERSONAL COMMENTS DELETED****


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

<<<<Please tell me what is irrelevant about this link?

Please state where the miracle has taken place?

Does this incident not state basics of Sikhi, i.e. what goes around comes around?>>

Whew sulhi khan was coming many sikhs advised Guru ji that we should leave or do other things.Guru ji took shelter of God's naam.It is written there.

He was to do many other works for sikhs yet.God took care of Sulhi Khan.What does it sound to you.

You keep on harping on vaishnavite influence.That is complete rubbish arguements for me as a sikh.Can you tell us what those influences are and how they affected Sikhs.

Do you believe in Naam simran? Do you believe apart froma physical body there is subtle body also.

Don't delete this post now as that contains nothing against kala afghana.


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

*****PERSONAL COMMENTS DELETED*****


----------



## pk70 (Apr 1, 2008)

*SPN Sangat ji, here are questions put by KA, they were copied by aad0002 ji and posted on SPN*
*I am trying to answer all of them. To me, KA has not very much to question save for howling over insignificant points.*


*Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')*

*Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib*: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.

I haven’t understood it. 

*Sri Amritsar Ishnan*: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.

The name of the city is Amritsar, so what if the water of the srovar is called amrit. It doesn’t do any miracle. Why to argue about it. What KA is trying to say?  It is a meaningless statement.

*Washing our Feet*: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs. 
What is wrong with that either, it is actually not a ritual, water is there if some one feels to wash feet ok otherwise no body is making is mandatory ritual or forcing you to do that. People in Punjab who wear Chappals, love that. Again it is a pointless point though.


*Amrit Vela*: KA states how you can call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time. 
KA as he boasts about being a Sikh in real sense( because he thinks others are gone strayed), how can he question Gurbani statement?  Very early morning when people get up  to be ready for the day, are advised by Guru ji to praise the Creator and have HIS memory in mind so that nothing should influence them  but HIM. Amrit word is used to call it pious time. It can change as per people’s situation. What is going on the world has nothing to do with the individual who is getting ready to start his/her day. KA is just splitting hairs, no reasonable point to be discussed here too.



*Bhai Veer Singh Ji*: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works. 

What was the context?

*Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji*: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).
*What did Bhai Veer Singh ji lie*?



*Amritsar** Sarovar*: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||

I agree; however, Sikhs who take bath in Srovar do really believe they are going to be liberated. If they do, I wonder!

*Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial*: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.

What does matter? This question is entirely historical, if he is historian, he should give evidence. People pay tributes who laid their lives for a noble cause. How can  it be a idol worshipping? Why didn’t he ask Indian Government which brings many leaders from the world to  Mr.Gandhi”s smadhi to bow there where most probably is nothing save for bricks! 

*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit*: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies. 

Here again he has to come with historical evidence to prove that Guru didn’t take amrit from Panj Pyare, it is well known in the available history. I took amrit they didn’t say any of the above statements. If some say, why is he questioning the entire Sikh community?

*Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale*: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans). 

Before questioning Sant Bhindrawala’ intentions , he should also answer who did bring  Sant ji to the front line against Akali Dal? Answer is” Congress”. When he refused to dance to the tune of Congress, it made him a target. What about Rajeev Gandhi and his Gundas who openly carried out genocide against the Sikhs, they were not fortifying any Gurdawara? To question Sant Bhindrawala, a lot of history needs to be read. KA’s mere statements carry no weight; actually they prove the guy is biased against Sant Bhindrawala.

*Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay*: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith. 

Can he support his statement with solid historical evidence, if not, how can he even say that. Amrit with patase or without patasse doesn’t make any difference, still it is amrit used for a pious ceremony.

*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah*: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar. 

While preparing amrit, path of bani is done just to create atmosphere for the ceremony, what is wrong with that? What are his suggestions? I want to know if he comes up with better options

*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees*: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.
He should support it with historical facts. 


*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti*: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners) 

If some one is questioning ritualism in Sikhism, how come guy criticizes the entire community? He himself took amrit, it makes him anritdhari too. Good or bad people are in every community why only amritdhari are attacked? Tha behaviour says it all.

*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits*: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken. 

Any reasonable person will never make such a statement based on a guess rather than on facts . Avalanche of liberalized media, drug trade and other factors took the youth away from basic principles of Sikhi not the reasons he gives in here.

*Amrit & Naam*: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad

How? Amrit word is used in a pious context, it is used for HIS Name, Gurbani Simran which is all about Him, and how it can be called Brahmanvaad? When Guru ji used this word for a pious context, why is it wrong if used for a pious ceremony? 

*Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh*: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.

That Guru Waak is used to show how Baba Deep Singh did what he was taught by Guru ji. I feel it is mere a symbol. That is all. Why should it even bother any one?

*Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh*: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit. 

I am not aware of it.

*Charan-Amrit*: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual. 
It was used to militarize the Sikhs, there was a ceremony for psychological need just as an oath is taken. There was another revolution against caste system, to declare it madness and disregard it; amrit was given from the same pot to all regardless their castes.  I think was/is wonderful. What is wrong with this? 


*Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji*: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella) 

Already I commented on this.

*Panj Piaray & Amritdharis*: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.

One single example *needs not to be generalized* . It sounds very *immature* statement.

*Anand-Karj*: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.

How? What is the best he offers, it was a mere ceremony just against prevailing ones 

*Bhai Randhir Singh*: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans) 

I am not aware of it.

*Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others*: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld. 

I am not aware of this too.

*Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar*: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief. 

As stated earlier, it was a pious ceremony, while it takes place, Gurbani chanting creates atmosphere. What does he sugges instead of that? To keep gossiping, slandering, and boasting during that time,will it help  better! Obviously guy is just splitting hair with no logic.  KA himself went through an oath while taking job in Punjab Police. Why didn’t he dare to refuse it by saying it is just a ritual carrying no meaning? After all by merely reading an oath will not change the mind of the person if he doesn’t believe it. It just surprises me how people just come up with *ridiculous questionings*.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

> MODS? any idea WHY just enough of my post was deleted to make me look bad?


because it's a propaganda forum for only one private viewpoint.  We are all here as tools to make it look official and give phony impression of "debate forum."


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## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

1)
One of the reasons, which has appeared again and again, for Kala Afghana's inability to travel to India and appear before Akal Takhat has been his links with Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. 
Here's what Kala Afghana writes about Bhindranwale in the 4th volume of his banned book.

‘’Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth…….. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it………. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos)………Even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fulfilled……All these Sants were ‘’bhekhee’’ (charlatans) and were greedy of publicity and political position’’

(Vol 4. p 158-159)


I wonder why a man who openly criticizes Bhindranwale would be wanted by the Indian intelligence agencies.

2)At page 91 - ''Water in Amritsar tanks is obtained from river through canal. 
The water contains all the possible dirt and garbage. When canal water passes
through villages, there it is polluted with the passing of urine and feces into
it, many birds and animals also add filth - how this water in Amrit Sarover can
be taken as Nectar and also in other tanks. How singing and reading of Baani
from Guru Granth can turn into Amrit - Nectar?''

3)Gutrmat parkash is publication of SGPC >here is their full issue dealing with blasphemy of kala
http://www.sgpc.net/gurmat_parkash/index1_sq.asp?table=October_2003


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## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> <<<<Please tell me what is irrelevant about this link?
> 
> Please state where the miracle has taken place?
> 
> ...



Rather than a miracle, would you not say it is a basic Sikh tenet of wha you reap is what you sow, i.e. what you store in your Karams will get you eventually?


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



jasleen_kaur said:


> i assure you i did not say a single thing wrong.  i do not know why it was moderated.  i would love to hear about it from the moderator who did it.
> 
> i do not know why they are trying to make me look bad when we're simply having a discussion about things we happen to disagree on.
> 
> MODS?  any idea WHY just enough of my post was deleted to make me look bad?



I can assure you that no one is trying to make you look bad. I apologise if you wrote nothing bad. You are a valued and respected member of this discussion board, but I think this KA business has got everyone a little heated.

Best Wishes


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## Inder singh (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

Randip

The rule of modaration is that when the moderator is participating in a thread as poster
he does not moderate that thread.That much moderator should know.

Here is you are poster as well as censor board chief deleting posts left and right.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 2, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



Inder singh said:


> Randip
> 
> The rule of modaration is that when the moderator is participating in a thread as poster
> he does not moderate that thread.That much moderator should know.
> ...


 
It makes no difference.

Personal comments are personal comments. Use of the word "K*nj*r" to describe people is swearing.

Stick to basic rules of discussing topics rather than the posters and everything will be OK.

Thanks


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 2, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

I did not write kala afghana as k#j#r.How about when you write that word?

Why you deleted article of Randhir singh.He has quoted from his books.He did not write any bad word.
Was not that to conceal black deeds of kala afghana?

Now kala afghana quotes are on.Why do not you reply to those?


----------



## BhagatSingh (Apr 2, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



jasleen_kaur said:


> they try to appeal to intellectuals with their rational sounding arguments.  heck, even i find some of those arguments convincing.  but in their quest for logic, they seem to have forgotten "faith".  i have faith in my Guru, i have faith in God.  i even have faith in the Panj Piyare who act as Guru when they distribute Amrit.   i believe in the bani of the tenth master.  i believe the vaaran of bhai Gurdas Ji.  i believe in the janam sakhis.



Ok


jasleen_kaur said:


> it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me my Guru fainted under torture (as Guggha says of Guru Arjan Sahib).


So? can't the Guru faint? Afterall, he is human! Why does truth (if it is true) hurt so much?
(I have never heard of that before, BUT it COULD be true)


jasleen_kaur said:


> it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me that jaap sahib, chaupai sahib, sawyai, and parts of Rehras sahib are not actually gurbani.


Again, why does truth(if it is) hurt so much?


jasleen_kaur said:


> if we stick to "logic", how long will it be before they decide having long hair is illogical and therefore we should all cut it?


Trust me, having long hair is not illogical. 


jasleen_kaur said:


> if they think the bani of the tenth master is not gurbani, how long till they dismiss the banis of the bhagats and bhatts (oh wait, they already have!).


How do you know it is the bani of tenth Guru? Oh, I didnt know they questioned the bani of the Bhagats (the one in SGGS). can you please post some links to it?


jasleen_kaur said:


> religion and science are two separate things.


But they both have to complement each other.


jasleen_kaur said:


> my faith in God goes beyond logic because my Guru tells me God is capable of anything, and no matter how much i try, i can never understand the full extent of God.


And that is logical.

If there is no logic behind one's beliefs then its called blind faith. that's what we  gotta stay away from.
Lol my reply is kinda late... :ice:


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 2, 2008)

<<<<So? can't the Guru faint? Afterall, he is human! Why does truth (if it is true) hurt so much?
(I have never heard of that before, BUT it COULD be true)>>>>

For communists Gurus were human only.For sikhs they were everything.How do you know Guru ji fainted.Any reference?


<<<Again, why does truth(if it is) hurt so much?>>>>

Give reference if it is truth.
 bani of the Bhagats (the one in SGGS).

<<<< can you please post some links to it?>>>

How do you know it is not bani of tenth master.I know because of seen three manuscripts two of them signed and dated by tenth master.

Are you not reading threads properly.There was a thread on this.


<<<But they both have to complement each other.>>>

Does science talk of soul and subtle body?Let us know that.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*

bhagat singh ji,  

i believe we've had this discussion several times.  you know my answers and i know yours.  there's really no need to do it again.

thanks.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 2, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> <<<<So? can't the Guru faint? Afterall, he is human! Why does truth (if it is true) hurt so much?
> (I have never heard of that before, BUT it COULD be true)>>>>
> 
> For communists Gurus were human only.For sikhs they were everything.How do you know Guru ji fainted.Any reference?



I am not a communist yet I belive the Guru's were human. That statement is a gross generalisation.




Inder singh said:


> <<<But they both have to complement each other.>>>
> 
> Does science talk of soul and subtle body?Let us know that.



science talks about "matter cannot be created or destroyed only changes form.........sounds very similar to the some Sikh beliefs. PS don't knock science, our Guru's were all highly educated people. They knew about science, philosophy, psychology, etc.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

quick question...  i noticed that the thread title has been changed...

since when do we call people who have been declared tankhaiya "ji"?  even "singh" is a stretch for someone who ridicules amrit sanchar...

to even associate ourselves with such people is going against Akal Takht.  why then should we show them such respect?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 2, 2008)

The thread title is changing repeatedly to avoid any link backs.


----------



## Inder singh (Apr 3, 2008)

<<<<science talks about "matter cannot be created or destroyed only changes form.........sounds very similar to the some Sikh beliefs. PS don't knock science, our Guru's were all highly educated people. They knew about science, philosophy, psychology, etc.>>>

This is not the answer of my question.

Does science believe in soul and subtle body.gurbani believes in these concepts.Answer yes or no.


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 3, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> <<<<science talks about "matter cannot be created or destroyed only changes form.........sounds very similar to the some Sikh beliefs. PS don't knock science, our Guru's were all highly educated people. They knew about science, philosophy, psychology, etc.>>>
> 
> This is not the answer of my question.
> 
> Does science believe in soul and subtle body.gurbani believes in these concepts.Answer yes or no.


 
Pscychology talks about being "concious of our existence", this could be said to be the soul so yes (in a way).

I think this debate of the soul and science can be tricky. The scientist would say, have you seen the soul?, can you touch it?, are there theories to prove its existence?

My reply would be that no one actually knows why we live. Why we as humans are the only beings on this planet conscious of their existance. What makes us conscious? What is this consciousness? When we look in a mirror we know it is oursleves we look at where an animal would either run away or attack it. We are therfore aware of ourselves. What makes us aware? What is this awareness? I think therefore I am? Our consciousness is our soul?


----------



## Randip Singh (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*



BhagatSingh said:


> Ok
> 
> So? can't the Guru faint? Afterall, he is human! Why does truth (if it is true) hurt so much?
> (I have never heard of that before, BUT it COULD be true)
> ...


 
Some interesting replies.

Glad you are addressing some of the points.


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## Inder singh (Apr 3, 2008)

Randip 

_*Aatam mahi Ram ram mahi aatam cheenas Gur  beechaaraa*_

The Lord is in the soul, and the soul is in the Lord. This is  realized through the Guru’s Teachings (1153).
Gurbani is very clear on soul.

Read


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## Randip Singh (Apr 3, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Randip
> _*Aatam mahi Ram ram mahi aatam cheenas Gur  beechaaraa*_
> The Lord is in the soul, and the soul is in the Lord. This is  realized through the Guru’s Teachings (1153).
> Gurbani is very clear on soul.
> ...



So what scientists would describe as consciousness is ineffct what Bani says is God?


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## Inder singh (Apr 3, 2008)

Gurbani says that soul is aprt of God.Only those can realize this concept who have attained elevated spritualism.
has any any scientist proved that soul exists.When they cann't prove its existence how can they say that it exists.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 4, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Gurbani says that soul is aprt of God.Only those can realize this concept who have attained elevated spritualism.
> has any any scientist proved that soul exists.When they cann't prove its existence how can they say that it exists.


 
So the soul does not exist?


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## Inder singh (Apr 4, 2008)

Where did i say that soul does not exist.Soul does exist but science cann't prove.

Why are you deleting posts?have you no manners?


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## Randip Singh (Apr 4, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Where did i say that soul does not exist.Soul does exist but science cann't prove.
> 
> Why are you deleting posts?have you no manners?



I am asking you the question because I do not understand what you are getting at, I am not making any accusations. I leave accusation making to other people on this forum.


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## Inder singh (Apr 4, 2008)

Randip

I asked you a question.The question is does science believe in Soul?Yes or no?


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## Randip Singh (Apr 5, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Randip
> 
> I asked you a question.The question is does science believe in Soul?Yes or no?



and I answered YES, please scroll up.


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## Inder singh (Apr 5, 2008)

Please give me a reference where it is stated that science believes in existence of soul.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 5, 2008)

> *randip singh*
> SPN Forum Leader
> 
> This is the message that was sent:
> ...


You insult AKJ, Panthic Weekly, the Tapoban Singhs and when we ask you not to, because it is insulting to all of us and provoking negativity to do so.  Neither does it support or defend any points you make about Kala Afghana or Ghugga,  You make baseless accusations and you say we are insulting you and delete our posts when we ask that you refrain from bashing Jathas. We ask why you insult our responses by deleting posts and you delete and say it is personal attack to ask. Again the same applies. All you do is delete any responses on this thread asking or pointing out that you are unjustly deleting. Since you are in fact, deleting, how is this insulting>?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 5, 2008)

Be respectful TO other mods and members


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## carolineislands (Apr 5, 2008)

Science and spirit...

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."
_Albert Einstein _

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
_Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), astronomer, mathematician, physicist, he constructed the first astronomical telescope_


"Nature is an unlimited broadcasting station, through which God speaks to us every hour, if we only will tune in."
_George Washington Carver (1864-1903) U.S. chemist, educator_

"The divine spark leaps from the finger of God to the finger of Adam, whether it takes ultimate shape in a law of physics or a law of the land, a poem or a policy, a sonata or a mechanical computer."
_Alfred Whitney Griswold (1906-1963) U.S. educator, historian_

"God not only plays dice, He also sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen."
_Stephen Hawking (1942- ) British physicist_

"If we find the answer [the unified theory], it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for we would know the mind of God."
_Stephen Hawking (1942- ) British physicist_

"Every formula which expresses a law of nature is a hymn of praise to God."
_Maria Mitchell (1818-1889) U.S. astronomer, educator_

"Every scientific truth goes through three states: first, people say it conflicts with the Bible; next, they say it has been discovered before lastly, then they say they always believed it."
_Louis Agassiz (1807-1873) Swiss-born U.S. naturalist, geologist, teacher_


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> "Every scientific truth goes through three states: first, people say it conflicts with the Bible; next, they say it has been discovered before lastly, then they say they always believed it."
> _Louis Agassiz (1807-1873) Swiss-born U.S. naturalist, geologist, teacher_


That is so true!! :rofl!!:It made my day.


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## Inder singh (Apr 6, 2008)

carolineislands 

These are the personal opinions of some persons assoicated with science.But they did not establish  their opinion in a lab. Did they.That is where practicality of those religious persons who have experienced this come into picture.

The same persons are being name called here.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> carolineislands
> 
> These are the personal opinions of some persons assoicated with science.But they did not establish  their opinion in a lab. Did they.That is where practicality of those religious persons who have experienced this come into picture.
> 
> The same persons are being name called here.


Define spirit/soul


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## carolineislands (Apr 6, 2008)

Inder Singhji,

You asked for a reference stating that science "believes" in the soul.  If you're going to be demanding about the details of the responses to your question you're going to have to provide a better definition of the criteria you're looking for.  What do you mean by "science?"  What criteria does an entity, group, or person have to meet to qualify as "science" to you?  I thought Einstein might be a given but obviously not.  And then what do you mean by "believe?"  That particular concept is not very relavant in science since scienctific experimentation only deals with observable data.  And then, tell us what you mean by "soul."

If you're going to be picky about our responses then you'll have to provide the kind of question that can be approached meticulously, not something as vague as you have given us.

Thanks!


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## Randip Singh (Apr 7, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Science and spirit...
> 
> "Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."
> _Albert Einstein _
> ...


 
Excellent post. Well worth reading.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 7, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> You insult AKJ, Panthic Weekly, the Tapoban Singhs and when we ask you not to, because it is insulting to all of us and provoking negativity to do so. Neither does it support or defend any points you make about Kala Afghana or Ghugga, You make baseless accusations and you say we are insulting you and delete our posts when we ask that you refrain from bashing Jathas. We ask why you insult our responses by deleting posts and you delete and say it is personal attack to ask. Again the same applies. All you do is delete any responses on this thread asking or pointing out that you are unjustly deleting. Since you are in fact, deleting, how is this insulting>?


 
*No accusations have been made.*

Panthic Weekly has been compared and contrasted with another publication in this thread, and the shoddy "journalism" it carries out criticised.

*Topoban is not a mainstream Sikh site*. It represents the teachings and followings of AKJ which are the followings and teachings of Bhai Randhir Singh. Their views conflict with mainstream Sikhism as do Bhai Randhir Singh's in many areas.

No insult has been made of AKJ or Panthic weekly as you have claimed but they have been criticised, *it is up to you to rebutt the criticism* *but not personally attack the person who made the criticism.* You have been asked on many occaisions to debate the issue and not the person but your persoanl attacks continue.

*No one is defending* Kala Afghana or Ghaggha but we are debating what they have said or to have said.

Also *we* is not the same as *I*. It is only you who feel this way. Everyone else on this forum seems fairly happy with the discussion.

Thanks


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## Randip Singh (Apr 7, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Please give me a reference where it is stated that science believes in existence of soul.


 

Inder Singh. You really must try and read the entire thread and stop m,aking assumptions.

I have stated above, their is an idea in Pscychology about the human conscience, some construe that to be the soul.

I cannot be any clearer than that!


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