# Dera Sants, Satgurus And Sikhi



## dalsingh (Jul 29, 2006)

I came across this quote. I'm wondering, if Singhs held beliefs like this in the past, what is the position regarding sant worship?

In travelling through the Shringnaghur country, our party was joined by a Sicque horseman, and being desirous of his acquaintance, I studiously offered him the various attentions which men observe to those they court. But the Sicque received my advances with a fixed reserve and disdain, giving me, however no individual cause of offence.; for his department to other passengers was no less contemptuous.His answer when I asked him the name of his chief, was wholly conformable to the observations I had made of his nation. He told me (in a tone of voice, and with an expression of countenance, which seemed to revolt at the idea of servitude) that he disdained an earthy superior, and acknowledged no other master than his prophet!

George Forster - 1783


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Gurfateh

In Gurmat Sants are more neaer to Saints of Christianhood or Sufis then Hindu Sants but for Nirmala Sants.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

*'Gun Naad Dhun Anandh, Kathath Sunath, Muun Janna: Mil Sant Mandali....' Aadh Guru Granth sahib*

Anyone who obeys his/her Guru's Hukam, engrosses his mind and spirit with the One, is always be seen in, or seeks the company of like minded God loving individuals... he /she is lovingly called " my Sant" by Guruji. Where these people congregate, Guruji has called *Sadh* Sangat, or as above *Sant *Mandali. 
The above text is not a transliteration of the Shabad, I have merely utilised the Gurbani to illustrate the notion.

Sikhs only worship/ped God through their Satguru. A true Guru creates Sants. Nay: He created Devtas.

*'Balihari Gur Aapanae, Dioharee Sadh Var, Jin Manas Te Devtae Keeae Karat Na Laagee Vaar...' Aasa Dhee Vaar. *

When these Sants meet each other they respectfully touch each others feet, because they see their Guru in each other. When you get your Soul to this level of attainment you stop critisizing and trying to find fault in other peoples' methods of worship, because all is derived from the One. The One is the Total Sum of it's individual elements. Read Entire 3rd Chhaka: Aasa Dhee Vaar.


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## truthseeker (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

sorry to go off topic here.. but i heard that in order to be a "sant" one can go to 'sant school' is that true??
and if its not... how does a person achieve the title of sant???

bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## dalsingh (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*



			
				truthseeker said:
			
		

> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> sorry to go off topic here.. but i heard that in order to be a "sant" one can go to 'sant school' is that true??
> and if its not... how does a person achieve the title of sant???
> ...


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I'm confused, the panj piare were content to call themselves Bhai. I can't recall anyone from early Sikh history being referred to as Sant, they were all bhais. What is a sant exactly and how do they become sants and who was the first Sikh sant? More importantly is is ok for Sikhs to worship them, like I have seen many do?


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## truthseeker (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Im cunfused too, 
these are my questions as well..
hmmmmm


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

You are already in 'Sant' school. When you took Amrit and Naam you enlisted. Now recite that Naam, study Gurbani with understanding and try to follow the path that all the Satgurus have written down in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and Dhasam Guru Granth Sahib. The Lord God will give you the title of Sant in His Realm. When you start looking for the earthly title of Sant, you will loose all. All of our preceding Gurus' Sikhs were 'Sants'. All who engross themselves in Naam, Bani today are Sants. True Sants don't allow people to worship them, they guide all to the Charan of Satguruji, from whence they recieve all gifts.


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## dalsingh (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

True Sants don't allow people to worship them, they guide all to the Charan of Satguruji, from whence they recieve all gifts.
------------------------------------

If this is true than we are in trouble as there are so many sants around that have people matha tek them and have their photos all over their Gurdwaras, almost like modern day Gurus. 

This is confusing because I know that some of these at least may perform some good social work in the community but the attention they bring to themselves seems strange. Most though seem to totally ignore the other sipahi side of Sikhi.


I don't mean to offend anyone with these comments, just want to expand my knowledge.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Anyone who has met with God and then leads other souls to Him is worthy of the title of Satguru: '*Sath Purakh Jin Jania, Satgur This Ka Nao...' Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.*

If any Sant is fortunate enough to have had Darshan of Akaal Purakh, then He/She is a Brahamgiani, Mahapurash; if He/She chooses or is Commanded by God to spread His Naam, then that Person is a True Teacher..a Satguru. How does the ordinary mortal recognise such a Mahapurash? We don't have that divine knowledge. We haven't the perception. That is where it becomes essential for us to read the instructions our Satgurus of yesteryear have left us within the Holy pages of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. The definition of Satguru is written throughout its pages. If any Sant/Mahapurash meets that criteria, then we are commanded to drink the water that washes His feet, rub the dust that His feet have trodden on on our forheads. If we then serve such a Satguru, He then imparts the Amrit Naam in our ears, which when we recite brings salvation to our souls. 

As for being a Sipahi, well there is no need for militancy unless there is a desperate need to defend either one's own self or some helpless soul.

In that regard it is essential to keep the body fit and healthy and during the course of your daily regime to learn some aspects of self defence, if possible, but there is definately no need to make an institutional army for no purpose other than for the sake of it.


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## dalsingh (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

That was really well put Namdhari. The bit where you said

"In that regard it is essential to keep the body fit and healthy and during the course of your daily regime to learn some aspects of self defence, if possible, but there is definately no need to make an institutional army for no purpose other than for the sake of it."

seems a bit flawed as you could easily get caught unawares (i.e Jews in Nazi Germany).


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

"seems a bit flawed as you could easily get caught unawares (i.e Jews in Nazi Germany)."Today 02:45 PM

You are right. But there is a difference between us and the Jews. They don't believe in the existance of the living Satguru, therefore they have no one to be their salvation in this world (I don't know of their provisions for the next). We have a living Satguru who guides us, if we choose to listen to him. 

Years before Pakistan was formed Satguru Partap Singhji went to the region and asked all the Sikhs and Hindhus to leave that side and cross the river into what would remain Bharat/India. Even some Namdhari Sikhs who believed He was the True Guru wouldn't leave their lands (which had been in their families for generations); never mind those who thought He was in imposter. People called him 'mad'. "What could possibly happen, that we should leave the land of our ancestors. Land that even back then was worth thousands to some people. You have to realise that the Punjab back then formed 1/3 of the whole of India! Noone could even dream of the holocaust of such a scale as happened during partition. Satguruji bought land in what is now 'Sirsa' in Haryana. Back then it was semi- arid land. All of His Sikhs who listened to him and left, He gave equal amounts of land to what they had relinquished in Pakistan. Many who were poor were given the land for free. Many wealthy gave offerings to the Gurdhwara in return for the land. Many, who were of strong faith accepted the will of the Satguru. But even then there were those who complained: We had fertile land. Is this what you are giving us in return? Sand?

I have been to Sirsa in 1982. The village I went to is called Sri Jiwan Nagar. It is one of the most lush green farmland as you could ever find anywhere in the Punjab. You couldn't buy that land because noone wants to sell! This was once semi desert!

And those who swore at Satguruji: His own Sikhs who lost faith because they couldn't see the future, they couldn't see what He was saving them from, I have seen them weeping and begging forgiveness for loosing faith and blaspheming against Him. Those who left pre-Pakistan at Satguruji's command number thousands of families. A portion of those are settled in Sri-Jiwan Nagar and surrounding villages. 

This is just one small story from millions, of the difference between having a Satguru (to guide and protect you in this life and the next) and not.

Everything happens in His will. There are times when He chooses not to do anything to show His power over man and nature, but then there are times when He produces miracles on a scale that is impossible to ignore.

It also depends on what individual Karam have been sown. We reap what we have sown in our previous lives.


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## dalsingh (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

>>





			
				Sikh Namdhari said:
			
		

> "seems a bit flawed as you could easily get caught unawares (i.e Jews in Nazi Germany)."Today 02:45 PM
> 
> _You are right. But there is a difference between us and the Jews. They don't believe in the existance of the living Satguru, therefore they have no one to be their salvation in this world (I don't know of their provisions for the next). We have a living Satguru who guides us, if we choose to listen to him._ <<
> 
> ...


<<

*Do you think we shouldn't help say starving people, or oppressed people because they are getting whats coming to them? or we shouldn't fight back if someone is trying to oppress us because we are receiving divine retribution for last lifes failings?*


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

It doesn't matter who you believe to be your Guru. But the fundamental difference between believing in a living Guru *as per the commandments in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib* and a belief ( whether correct or not) that Satguru Gobind Singhji transfered the throne of Gurgaddhi to the same Holy Granth, is that the Holy Granth, (which incidently, contains the Shabads of living Gurus, who whenever they described or defined a Guru were talking of their predecessors, who were Human in form.) is that the Guru in Human form is proactive. Always was, is and always will be. 

This is not to say that those that believe in a Human Guru disrespect the Holy Gurbani. Far from it. *To follow and recieve Naam from a Living Human Guru is precisely what the Gurbani in the two Guru Granth Sahibs ordains.*

I know that there is a lot of resentment against Human Gurus within the vast majority of our Sikh bretheren. Most of that hatred, yes -hatred stems from the days of Satguru Teg Bahadhurji. When the likes of Dheer Mall coveted the Holy Scriptures. There were certain elements who were of the opinion that if they had ownership of the Pothi Sahib (as it was known then) they would be able to control and lead the masses. Guruji was even forbidden to enter the Golden Temple at Amritsar! He was turned away at the Gates! Today the decendants of those same 'great Custodians of the Scriptures' would have the masses believe that Satguru Gobind Singhji passed away at Naded, when in fact there is NO historical evidence that he did. What is evident is that He had a funeral pyre built around which He had a screen erected. He ORDERED the Sikhs present not to follow Him, not to look for His ashes. He also had His horse saddled. When the Sikhs asked Him what would become of them He ordered them to have faith in the Gurbani, something all the Gurus had always and are still Ordering. There is no evidence in any of His own writings in which He propogates the Shabad Guru concept, or the Five Pyarae being Guru concept ( He mentions that those who obey Him will become His Swaroop, something all Gurus say to their Sikhs. But conveying the Gurugaddhi to the 5- was never done), nor is there any hint in any of His Banis in which he even contemplates Guru manyo Granth! I challenge any modern Sikh to show me Satguru Gobind Singhji's Gurbani in which he propgates the concept of 'Granth Guru'. Surely such a major shift in the whole concept of the Gurgaddhi should have taken on mention in His writings? None whatsoever.

When the fire burned itself out, the Sikhs did exactly what they were ordered not to do: they looked for Guruji's ashes - and found none. THIS IS RECORDED. What is also recorded is that Guruji gave Darshan to two hermits in the jungle as He galloped away and told them to tell the weeping Sikhs that He hadn't left this life and was still amongst them. Thereafter many Sikhs had His darshan as and when He chose. There are Gurdhwaras built at various sites where The 10th Lord was seen after His so called demise. These facts are staring us in our faces and yet we sinners keep repeating lies for the advancement of our shameless pursuits.

'Agia Bhei Akaal Ki ......
...Sabh Sikhen ko Hukam He Guru manio Granth.....' is part of a piece of poetry that is attributed in Sikh history to a Man called Prahalad Singh. Many decievers would have you believe it is Satguru Gobind Singhji's writing... IT IS CATEGORICALLY NOT.

However, it is not in anyones interest to fight over these issues. Too many generations have passed. People have a staunch faith in what they have been lead to believe. New theories, with the help of Empirical English Masters have been formulated. Whereas in the days of pre-Singh Sabha ALL Sikhs KNEW that a Guru was a Living Human Being. Todays 'Sikhs' deny even the possibility of there ever being one. I have even come across those who propogate the ridiculouse theory that Satguru Nanak Devji was the one who told us to believe in 'Shabad Guru'. They cite the verses: *'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela' *from the Sidh Gost.
How twisted is that interpretation. Without going into too much detail, the only thing these misled individuals are forgetting when they try to spread these lies is that it was none other than *SATGURU NANAK DEVJI who STARTED THE LINE OF HUMAN GURUS THAT HE ORDAINED WOULD CONTINUE THROUGHOUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG. - READ THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE AADH GURU GRANTH SAHIB ON THIS ISSUE.*

*Namdhari Sikhi is not a cult. It is a preservation of all that is sacred within the Panth from the time of Satguru Nanak Devji to Satguru Gobind Singhji and beyond. From the belief in a Living Satguru to the respect, honour and adaptation of the Holy Gurbanis of the Aadh and Dasam Guru Granth Sahibs into the lives of all Sikhs. To sing those Banis in the Raags they were composed in, utilising the original correct pronunciation that the Holy words were spelt in. Not to assume what the Guru Sahibs meant, but to understand the Bani literally where it is supposed to be taken literally. Todays scholars would teach you to take the most important issues metaphorically, which is wrong. *

*Please,* do not form the view that I am attacking anyones beliefs. I am merely putting across the beliefs and facts as the Namdhari Sikhs know them. Whatever your faith or belief, we are told to respect and I do. So if by expressing my belief I have caused anyone offence I humbly apologise.

I'm sorry Dal Singhji, it's gone midnight and I need to sleep! I will post replies to the rest of your questions next time.

Sat-Sri-Akaal, ji


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## dalsingh (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

You said: Too many generations have passed. People have a staunch faith in what they have been lead to believe. New theories, with the help of Empirical English Masters have been formulated. Whereas in the days of pre-Singh Sabha ALL Sikhs KNEW that a Guru was a Living Human Being. 
-----------------------------------------------
Ok cool, but please take a second and look at the original quote. It is pre-Singh Sabha (1783!!) and pretty much what Singh Sabha sort of teaches, equality of Sikhs with no human leader as per Guru Gobind Singh in tradional accounts. Unless of course you thought that Forster was lying.

You said:
*Not to assume what the Guru Sahibs meant, but to understand the Bani literally where it is supposed to be taken literally. Todays scholars would teach you to take the most important issues metaphorically, which is wrong. *


I totally disagree. Metaphors are common methods of teaching points. 


PS - Although I don't share your beliefs regarding G. Gobind's later life, you are entitled to your opinion. But we should maybe study Sainpati's Gursobha which is apparently the most contemporary Sikh source on the subject (early 18 century). Plus Parchian Seva Das, they may shed light on what happened. 

Are you suggesting that G. Gobind krept out of his own funeral and secretly helped the panth?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 5, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Gurfateh

Brother Namdhari Ji,

Are yo awre of Neldharis?

They also are your branch but behold your 12th Satiguru as Baba only.

anyway are you aware that Tenth Master beheld Gurbani as Satiguru himslef.And he took baptism from Khalsa and passed Gurudome to us via Tilak of Saffron before levaing to Sachkhand.In your version of Sau Sakhi Charan Pahul is from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Anyway das respect you views and respect your Satiguru also.But if your Satiguru is Sikh,he is eqaul to any Sikh and  whole Guru Panth is Satiguru.Before our Panth in hindus lving Satiguru was there.We have Dehdhari Guru in Sanatan Sikhism but that is to represent Guru Panth.Or Gurubar Akal takin over Deh or body of persaon making him/her Khalsa.Khalsa Guru hai Guru hai Khalsa(Sau Sakhi).

Das bows to Baba Ram Singh Ji as From of Tenth Guru as Khalsa but like him we have many other great Sikhs like Prof Sahib Singh Ji,Bhai Randheer Singh Ji,Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalas among others.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 5, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Sat-Sri Akaal Vijaydeep Singhji

I must apologise in advance for any delays in responding to replys as I run a business and this debate is only something that I have got into in reluctant reaction to the many misconceptions that I read on the internet. 

Yes I am aware of Neeldharis. But again Veerji, you have been mislead about their beliefs. They do hold Satguru Ram Singhji as the twelfth Master... but they don't believe in the Guruship of the Guardians of the Gurgaddhi in His absence, as we all believe in the return of Satguru Ram Singhji as fortold by Satguru Nanak Deviji and Satguru Gobind Singhji.

Sau Sakhi, if you have read any version would not be the true original, because when the true Khalsa started to preach it the British imprisoned them. They burned all the books that posed a threat to their Empire. But when the flow of the Satguru's influence could not be checked they hired traitor Sikhs like _Sir_ Attar Singh Aluhallia to translate and then change the wordings of many a Granth, not just the Sau Sakhi to confuse the Sikhs as to what the true teachings were! 

*A very important point for all seekers of the truth:* You compare Satguru Ram Singhji to ordinary men. I implore you: read the life story of Satguru Ram Singhji and compare it to the Sikhs you speak of and then tell me if He is not SATGURU. Don't read the writings about Satguruji by those who have been inspired by traitorous propoganda. '*Satgur Bilas'* is a two volume Epic in the Namdhari Panth which records Sakhis from Satguru Ram Singhji's contemporaries. Real life accounts of how He gave Naam to thousands at a time, and changed their lives. How He breathed new life into an almost extinct Khalsa. This was at a time after the Khalsa army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was annihilated by the British, and all ideas of a powerful Sikhi were trodden into the earth. Our Gurudhwaras were controlled by the British and their puppets so that no idea of resistance against their Empire could go unnoticed. This was a time when noone dared to speak against the Empire for fear of death. _All of your ancestors were schooled by this_ _governing force._ So naturally, when the twelfth Master started to spread His Universal message, the British counterattacked by using the Gurdhwaras as centres for instigating hatred for the Living Guru. That hatred lives on today. You see it time and time again. 

Your words that Satguru Gobind Singhji believed in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib as Guru could not be further from the truth, my brother. If that were the case...:
*What do you believe Satguru Gobind Singh to be?* 
Do you also compare Him to the ordinary mortals whose names you mention? Search your hearts brothers and have shame.

It is not your fault, it's the influence of Kalyug. One false theory is spawining hundreds and thousands more. 

You speak of Living Satguru in Hindhu belief. Here is another lie that the British have instilled in your minds to confuse and divide the people. Hindhu and Sikh belief about God and Satguru is one and the same. I know you have been indoctrinated to believe otherwise, that is why your 'leaders' do not want you to read the writings of Satguru Gobind Singhji. Read Dasam Guru Granth Sahib O unfortunates and see what The Tenth Lords Ordains. Khalsa was formed to defend Hindhu Dharam! (Not it's degenerate rituals such as idol worship etc. - but the True values which had lost credence.) 

*Today we have become so full of our ego that we call ourselves GURU? *

*If each and everyone of us is Guru, then what becomes of our belief in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib as Guru? Is each one of us equal to it's Holy teachings?*

The Satguru is COMPLETE. HE is SARB KALA SAMRATH. 

*In vain attempts to make their theories work they have had to divide the Satguru into three parts:*

*First false theory:*
*No Human Guru*
*Aadh Guru Granth Sahib is Guru-*

*But The Holy Scriptures are not capable of giving Gur-manthr. *

*(Gur-manthr is what a Guru is all about. It is also known within Gurmat as Gur-Sabad. The Satguru gives this Gur-Manthr in the ears of His Sikhs, which they then recite.*
*The propogators of these manmat theories use this word to justify the Shabad Guru theory by twisting its meaning.)*

*Hence the need to create a*
*Second false theory:*

*Khalsa is Guru*

*"When the 5 Pyarea give Amrit, they pass on the Gurmanthr by repeating Wahiguru -Ji - Ka- Khalsa, Sri Wahiguruji- Ki- Fateh."*

*So, now we still need a Human form of Guru, this contradicts the first theory. Now you not only have one Dehdhari Guru, but -God help us -FIVE!*

*Third false theory:*
*Shabad is Guru*

*This theory was helplessly evolved to counter the practice of actually worshipping the Bindings of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. But you still see us Sikhs resorting to a form of Idol worship when we start attributing life to what is lifeless. What have we degenerated into?*

*(The Gurbani has Divine power only when we read it and understand it and then implement it's teachings into our lives and search out a True Guru to give us His Gurmanthr so that we can leave this world with our sins washed.)*

*So according to the history as recited by this school, Satguru Gobind Singhji passed on the Gurgaddhi at least three times in His lifetime?*
*What was His role when He was busy doing this, or after He had done this?*

If you believe in the writings of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib as eternal truth, then read the Vaars of Bhai Gurdasji(I) whose writings are renouned in the Panth as the KEY to understanding the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib:

Vaar 6 Pauri 16

*Dhan, Dhan Satgur **Purakh, Nirankar Akaar banaia...*

To counter the false meanings of modern 'scholars' you have to remember that these Vaars were written at a time when Satguru Arjun Devji was the 5th *Purakh* (*Human)* Satguru that the WHOLE of the Sikh Panth believed in, despite the fact that the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib had been wriiten. If there is only ONE TRUTH, then that truth DOES NOT CHANGE!!! GOD CREATED HIS FORM INTO SATGUR AND APPEARED ON EARTH IN HUMAN FORM. The words: Nirankar Akaar banaia mean: 
*The Formless created Form..*
and appeared on Earth as Satgur. 
Bhai Gurdasji calls such a Satguru 'Dhan'- he goes on in the same Vaar to call those Sikhs Dhan, who place their forheads at the Charan(feet) of this Satgur. Please don't even go down the road of telling me that 'Charan' is a hypothetical concept.

*No mere mortal can be Satguru unless the Satguru so chooses. Holy Scriptures and history catagorically prove that to be Satguru you have to be immersed in Naam and be capable of immersing others in Naam and changing the course of their Karam. Satgur is in His ONE form capable of ALL THINGS. He does not need to be divided.*

Please read also the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and try to understand what Satguru Gobind Singhji made us and what we are slowly evolving into!!! 

Unfortunately these evil forces have succeeded in blaspheming against the very Gurbani that tells us of what the Khalsa Panth should be, and they even proclaim that it is not the writing of the Tenth Satguru.

I am not going to counter all of your misconceptions here and now, already I have spent too much time on this computer. But if Satguruji's will permits we will do Satsang again.

*Once again, when one talks about what one believes in, the passion of belief can sometimes hurt feelings, especialy if they differ. *
*My intention is not to attack belief and if that is how I have come across I beg your Sadhs' forgiveness from the bottom of my heart. For you are Sadhs who seek God.*


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## dalsingh (Aug 6, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Paaji, 

All of the references to saints in Bhai Gurdas's work refer to the importance of sadh sangat and are put in a way that suggests it is fellow Gursikhs that are being refered to as saints. 

Not a living replacement of the Guru.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 6, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Sat-Sri-Akaal Dal Singhji

I agree with you totally on that one. If you look at our earlier discussion that was what I said. As Bhai Gurdas's Vaars are simplyfied versions of the Aadh Gurbani, he is merely repeating what Satguruji ordained. All Satgurus addressed their Sikhs as 'Sants'. You see it in both Guru Granth Sahibs time and time again. Satguru Ram Singhji's Hukam to all His Sikhs is to address each other as Santji for that very reason.

I am talking about the *definition for Guru and/or Satguru. *The verses I have quoted describe the Satguru, not Sants. Why are you ignoring this fact?

What is your understanding of Satguru/Guru? How do you relate that to the definitions given in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib? When you say "Not a living replacement of the Guru" I despair.

A guru is nothing but living!

Did Guru Nanak Devji not live and teach?

Is not the whole of the Gurbani written by Masters who _lived_?

From Ramanandji, Kabirji, Faridji....? They were all Gurus in their own right!

Kabirji's Guru was Ramanandji, from whom He recieved the gift of Naam.

Satguru Gobind Singhji writes in His Bani:

*Jaagat Jot Japai Nisbasur...*

_God is real, God exists , He is not a hypothetical Entity, therefore He comes to this Earth and other planets as a living Entity._


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## ceo_nikka (Aug 6, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

What's so "new", "unique" and "additional" your deh-dhari Guru is giving you which is not given by ten jots of Guru Nanak in past and Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Pls enlighten.

-Mandeep Singh


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## dalsingh (Aug 6, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

32. Page1095 Line 6 Raag Maaroo: Guru Arjan Dev



thoo paarabreham paramaesar jon n aavehee ||
O Supreme Lord God, O Transcendent Lord, You do not take birth.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Dal Singhji

Satguru does not take Joon-'birth' He is Avtar.

It's all about understanding without prejudice. Satguru Nanak Devji was not born through sowing Karam. He was God's Jyot on Earth in Human form for the sake of our salvation. You could call Him 'The Son of God' as Satguru Gobind Singhji called Himself and so did Christ for that matter.

Ceo Nikka,

What was new after Satguru Nanakdevji? All the following Gurus just repeated His message. In fact not all of them even composed Bani in musical measure. They are there BECAUSE SATGURU NANAK DEVJI ORDERED IT-to hold our hands and guide us proactively, to stop us from wandering the wrong path through their love. 

*Your understanding of the Satgur Entity is so wrong. Read the Sukhmani Sahib. In the first Stanza Satgurji singing praise of the Satgur tells us that He always was, is and will be. Then, again in His own bani in another place He tells us that "Dhan is the creed, the Father and the Lady whom the Satgur calls ' Mother'." - IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE GURBANI THEN IT IS IMPERITIVE THAT YOU READ THESE VERSES AND BELIEVE THEM TO BE ETERNALY TRUE! *

*God started this Gurgaddhi in the form of HUMAN GURUS since the begining of creation and proclaimed it till the end of time!*

*IT NEVER ENDED WITH SATGURU GOBIND SINGHJI. HISTORY AND THE PRESENT TIME PROVE IT. *

*IF YOU WANT TO BE SO FULL OF YOUR EGO AND DENY THE HOLY WORDS OF THE GURBANI BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO PROUD TO RELINQUISH YOUR PREJUDICES THEN YOU ARE THE LOSERS. *

*BY BELIEVING IN A HUMAN GURU YOU ARE NOT 'DESTROYING' SIKHI-*
*YOU ARE MAKING YOUR SIKHI STRONGER, YOUR ARE OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS OF ALL THE HUMAN SATGURUS WHOSE SABADS GIVE US GUIDANCE THROUGH TIME.*

Satguru Jagjit Singhji showers ALL of His Sikhs with a love the can only be experienced by coming into His presence. I and hundreds of thousands like me have experienced His blessings first hand. He has maintained Gursikhi Maryadha, in its pristine condition. There are no arguments as to what is right and what isn't, just as ther were no arguements with any Living Gurus in the past. Namdhari Sikhs do not cut their hair; they have awe of Satguruji. Every Sikh is held accountable for his/her actions. He has maintainned the purity of reciting Gurbani in the way His predecessors ordained.

*And most important of all:*

*He gives NAAM. *

*That Vasthu only a Satgur can give!*


----------



## dalsingh (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Why break away from the parent body Namdharia? This will only cause further splits. 

Even someone as big as Banda Bahadur never got to be a Guru, despite some support for this by some Sikhs of the time. Do you think that your extra Gurus can compare to him?

You also said:

_Satguru does not take Joon-'birth' He is Avtar.

It's all about understanding without prejudice. Satguru Nanak Devji was not born through sowing Karam. He was God's Jyot on Earth in Human form for the sake of our salvation. You could call Him 'The Son of God' as Satguru Gobind Singhji called Himself and so did Christ for that matter._


You were saying earlier that we should take bani literally so why can't you agree that God simply does not take birth. Instead of twisting it around. Guru Gobind said that those who call me God will fall in the pit of hell. Who is anyone to say that so and so Guru is god avatar or wotnot in light of this?


No offence intended BTW.


----------



## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*



			
				dalsingh said:
			
		

> Why break away from the parent body Namdharia? This will only cause further splits.
> 
> Even someone as big as Banda Bahadur never got to be a Guru, despite some support for this by some Sikhs of the time. Do you think that your extra Gurus can compare to him?
> 
> ...


 

Dal Singhji

None taken. Although, was there a need for the 'Namdharia' bit? 

If we are here to express our views and share knowledge, then we, as mature, educated individuals should be able to discuss controvertial issues without resorting to name calling and eventually abuse.

The thing to remember here is we are all seeking salvation for our souls, after we die. Satguruji teaches us that at the end of the day it is _*our faith and not our religion*_ _*that will be our salvation. *_

Did you know that if a Guru was measured by contemporary thinking, modern scholars would reject all of the old Gurus?

Let me cite an example:

Kabirji's Guru was a true Brahmin. His name was Ramanandji. Guru Arjundevji regarded him as Guru and Mahapursh; because He entered Ramanand's Bani, albiet only one Sabad, in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.

When Kabirji was on his quest for a True Guru his search took him to Ramanandji's door.

Ramandji refused to give Kabirji Gurmanthr on account of Kabirji being of low caste. Kabirji, however, was adamant that it was Ramanandji that he believed in and it was from Ramanandji that He was going to recieve Naam. (If we measured Ramanandji by the school of thought you display, would his Gurbani have been entered in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib?)

Kabirji knew that Ramanandji went to bathe at the river before sunrise every day before sitting to meditate. He went and lay in His path.
When Ramanandji tripped over Kabirji, He (speaking in true Gurmukh style) exclaimed, "Rise, O fortunate and repeat the Name of Ram", supposedly not knowing it was low caste Kibirji he was addressing.
Kabirji was satisfied - He had recieved Naam from A True Guru, in whom He had faith.

Many years later, when Kabirji became a Guru in His own right and had His own following of thousands, the two did meet, but I have yet to study that Sakhi.


I have no problem with your beliefs. As for your remarks about 'parent body of Sikhs'. 

The way I personally view Sikhi is that Satguru Nanakdevji did not create an 'ism'.
Any disciple of any Guru is a Sikh. The word 'Sikh' is sanskrit for disciple.

Your comment about Bandha Bahadhur stems from ignorance about the facts. Satguru Gobind Singhji never gave Bandha the Gurgaddhi. (He did however give it to Satguru Balak Singhji.)

Bandha Bahadhur is more known for his Janthr, Manthrs, courage and valour in the battlefield, than for his spiritual ascendency.

Satguru Ram Singhji created hundreds of the likes of Bandha Bahadhur, and before you rubbish this claim, read your history. Us Sikhs have a history under "extra Gurus" that anti-Sikh propoganda is trying it's hardest to suppress,without success.

Satguru Ram Singhji, Himself faced this hatred, which led Him to challenge those who kept saying that He was false and that His Panth was false: "I have raised the foundations of This Khalsa Panth from Pathal. No man's power can break it."

The proof of it is that all false Gaddhis never last. Bandha did his bit and passed. Those who falsley tried to claim his ascension soon fell to the wayside.

The British Empire, with the help of the Singh Sabha tried to smash The Sant Khalsa; they both failed. Where is the Empire today and all the traitors who enlisted en mass into the British army to betray their motherland and show Queen Victoria how loyal they could be?

Satguru Ram Singhji taught His Sikhs about true Sikhi. He taught us how to defend our birthright. He taught us AND YOU how to respect and read Gurbani. At that time it was Satguru Ram Singhji who went from village to village to bring out moth and rat eaten Gurujis' Granth Sahibs, wipe them with His Dastar. He then taught the masses the true path they had forgotten. Only One who is a true Heir to this Great...* ('Sri Guru Raj Abichal Ataal, Aadh Purakh Phermaio' - Aadh Guru Granth Sahib)* Gurgaddhi could do all of this. 

His brother, Satguru Hari Singhji spent His entire time on this Earth imprisoned within the confines of Sri Bhaini Sahib. Yet still He kept the flame of Sikhi burning. Why? How?Study that history, my brother and wonder in amazement. Your leaders would hide it from you least you get impressed by it.

Gandhiji was not the Father of the Nation, Satguru Ram Singhji is. *And you have the audacity to speak of breaking away from the parent body?*

Those Sikhs who became traitors to the Nation, had they joined Satguru Ram Singhji, we would today be enjoying that Khalsa Raj that you so rhetorically sing of in the Gurdhwaras.

Even today if you open your eyes and overcome you bigotry against the Living Guru you would see what 
Sri Satguru Jagjit Singhji is achieving for His Sikhi. You would see the kind of leader He is - both spiritual and political. If you don't want to do that, that is your perogative. But please, have minds broad enough to go and investigate before you condemn. 

Forgive my passion, but noone has any right to tell us that we are not Sikhs, or that we are a breakaway branch. Had it not been for Satguru Ram Singhji, we would all still be prisoners of the British Empire, and probably non Sikhs.

Acknowledge your heritage with pride and stop trying to destroy that which saved you.


----------



## dalsingh (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Look I'm not saying that Namdharis didn't do some brave stuff against goray, and i agree that the mainstream Sikhs may have sided with goray to protect their jagirs. But still I don't see how you can compare later Guru's to the original ten. 

also your comments about Banda:

_Your comment about Bandha Bahadhur stems from ignorance about the facts. Satguru Gobind Singhji never gave Bandha the Gurgaddhi. (He did however give it to Satguru Balak Singhji.)

Bandha Bahadhur is more known for his Janthr, Manthrs, courage and valour in the battlefield, than for his spiritual ascendency.

Satguru Ram Singhji created hundreds of the likes of Bandha Bahadhur, and before you rubbish this claim, read your history. Us Sikhs have a history under "extra Gurus" that anti-Sikh propoganda is trying it's hardest to suppress,without success._


No way dude, Banda was a much bigger figure than any Namdhari guru. They couldn't do a quarter of what he done. And i never said he had guruship.


----------



## kaur-1 (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Dear Sikh Namdhari,

Sikh's believe in *Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji* *[ The Living Guru of the Sikhs]*. 
FULL STOP

From http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/gurus/gurugranth.htm
"
* DIVINE                WORD CAME DIRECT FROM GOD:*
             Guru                Granth Sahib does not narrate the life story of Guru Nanak, but                each and every word is dedicated to the Glory of the Almighty God                only. It is not a reproduction of earlier religions, but the Divine                Word (Gurbani) came to the Gurus direct from God. Guru Nanak stated                that it was not his philosophy, it was not his understanding and                it was not his thinking, but the Word was coming to him direct from                God and he was simply delivering His message to the world. As he                confirms:
             'O                  Lalo, as comes the Divine Word from Lord to me,                So                  do I narrate it.'                (Tilang                  Mohalla 1, p-722)                'I                  have said what Thou commandeth me to say.'                (Wadhans                  Mohalla 1,p-566)                           This                was repeatedly confirmed and emphasized by all the Gurus in their                Bani such as:
             'From                  God springs ambrosial Gurbani                The                  exalted Guru narrates and preaches the same to world.' (Majh Mohalla                  3, p-125)                'This                  Word comes from Him, Who hath created the World.' (Mohalla 4,                  p-306)                'This                  Word that hath come from God, It dispelleth all woes and worries.'                  (Sorath Mohalla 5, p-628)                'I                  speak but the Will of the Lord,                For,                  the Lord's devotee narrateth the Word of the Lord.'(Sorath Mohalla                  5, p-629)                'Whatever                  the Lord hath instructed me, Hear, O my brother.' (Tilang Mohalla                  9, p-727)                 
                          The                tenth Master, Guru Gobind Singh established the same truth that                it was God's Word that was being revealed through the Gurus:
             'Whatever                  the Lord sayeth to me                I                  say the same to the world.' (Guru Gobind Singh)                           The                Janamsakhi (biography) reveals that Guru Nanak many times said to                his minstrel Mardana, "Mardana, start playing the rebec, Gurbani                (Divine Word) is coming." And the Divine Word was then recorded.                That Divine Word is GURBANI- Guru Granth Sahib."

In my humbly opinion, Bhai Balak Singhji was a highly spiritual man. NOT A SIKH GURU.

He did NOT receive divine words from Waheguroo to be recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

From http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/namdhari.html
"[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]The  founder, Bhai Balak Singh (1799-1862) of Hazro,  was a holy man whose noble example and sweet persuasive manner won him a number of followers."
[/FONT]


----------



## drkhalsa (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Dear Namdhari Sikh ji 




> Even today if you open your eyes and overcome you bigotry against the Living Guru you would see what
> Sri Satguru Jagjit Singhji is achieving for His Sikhi. You would see the kind of leader He is - both spiritual and political. If you don't want to do that, that is your perogative. But please, have minds broad enough to go and investigate before you condemn.
> 
> Forgive my passion, but noone has any right to tell us that we are not Sikhs, or that we are a breakaway branch. Had it not been for Satguru Ram Singhji, we would all still be prisoners of the British Empire, and probably non Sikhs.
> ...






I have all due respect for your version of sikh history and YOUR SATGURU .
But one thing I think is quite obvious for you and all others on this forum that Sikhs ( NON Namdhari) Do not believe in any Living Guru, dont be naive  to believ that  Millions of sikhs with hundered of  Sikh  Scholars  and Historians  are just playing a conspiracy  or are jsut Blind fools to notice the truth . 

So please Dont use Hurting words like Bigotary for sikhs even you belive they are not follwing the true path as at the moment it is still open to disscusion atleast on this forum so try to control your passion and be Calm .

No body is calling you NoN sikh or taking away your right to be sikh .


Jatinder Singh


----------



## dalsingh (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

When i originally posted this I intended to discuss dera 
walleh sants, not living Gurus.


----------



## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*



			
				Sikh Namdhari said:
			
		

> Sat-Sri Akaal Vijaydeep Singhji
> 
> I must apologise in advance for any delays in responding to replys as I run a business and this debate is only something that I have got into in reluctant reaction to the many misconceptions that I read on the internet.
> 
> ...


 

Gurfateh

Bro,

Das here refers to Pratap Singh Mehta version only which is Namdhari version.So he even writes own views about your Satiguru and rewrites him as Satiguru Ram Singh Ji.Das interpreted the orgional version and comapred it with explantions and they were biased.

Sau Charan Pahul,it was nowhere writtan should be givne from water of the corner of Rumala of Guru Granth Sahib Ji,where human Guru did not exist.It was simply writtan take it from water dipped in Rumala and He wrote in bracked ,where Guru did not exists.


Now we come to concept of Panj Piaras.Well das is happy to inform you that Amrit Sansakr and Gurmantar you say is not the one.We are told to carry out Namabhiyas or Nam Drih by Singh repesetning Panth Guru.

It is not Fateh but Gurmatar has mnay more thing and lots of practice or Abhyas attached to it.

Then yourself Said that Guru Granth Sahib Ji can not guide us.Are you sure.Say If Akal wants why can not a person get enlightement just by reading.Is our God binded by anything.

Coming to Sabad Guru,read Sidh Gost in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which yourself are respecting.That Guru Nanak called his own Guru.So it can ot be our Guru.

Yuor Mahapursh had a copy of Sarbloh Granth,which they have lost why?Neeldharis still have it and they do not behold Baba Ram Singh Ji as Satiguru but form of Satiguru,if if you attain the state of Khalsa,your self can get.


First Master did say that he was one with Akal,Vachitar Natak,He said his name will not come but name of Akal will come.And Akal can give Guruship as mnay times Akal wants to as many people.Fact is that True Guru is fromless as in all forms(32 forms of Gurus can be refered to in Dasham Granth).Guru Panth and Guru Granth Ji are mere manifestations.

Sarbloh Granth further says, In Me(Tenth Nanak),in them(Khalsa) and in That(Akal) behold no difreance.Clarly 12 forms or Dwadash roops are writtan over there of Guru which is formless apprantly ie Ten Masters,Guru Granth and Guru Panth.

Even if we belive that Baba Ajpal Singh stayed concelaed for about say 90 to hundred years.In that time there were Many Khalsa Nam Abhiyasis who did not meet him and got salvation while being alive just by follwing Five Beloved ones,they did not meet Tenth Master also.

So one who gave baptism two Tenth Master were not weak.In Dasham Granth it is writtan that by thier mercy only we are created else billions or poors like me are lying.

Anf when Guru himself says Khalsa Mera Satiguru Poora or Khalsa is my complete Satiguru(Sarbloh Granth).And as per Bhangu like Guru Angad became Guru and Guru Nanak bowed to him so did Guru Gobind Singh Ji bowed to Khalsa.He took Tankha from Khalsa even once.

Yet das does not think any doubt should be left.


Anyway Purukh doe snot mean human but may mean male in Punjabi.But in Gurmat we need to understand that Satiguru does not mean any Human Guru.Even we need to understand that term Nanak is for second person and not First person in Guru Granht Sahib Ji.

Term Purukh is from term Purush in holy Vedas(Purush Sutra).As per  thaty defination Purush Evda Sarvada ie Purush ie Complete is one who is everywhere (in all time).

Purukh or Karta Purukh is not single entitiy wioth Mushriks(partners).Ie no one second other then Akal exisits.Till you know you are vedantic but when you realise that you are a Khalsa.

Das can not say that weather your presetn Satiguru Ji are making any one of his follower like that or not perhaps not becasue if they make any one just like him(if he himslef is Khalsa) then that person will stop following living Guru.


Das is repeating that we have Dehdhari Gurudevss in Sanatan Sikhs but that is simlar to the state of Sants of bibles in Holy Ghost ie Guru who is Akal overtaking the mind of Khalsa.

If you want das by mercy of his Guru Khalsa can let you come out of precived limitations in mind that without lving Guru ,there can nopt be salvations.It is posible by mercy of Akal.

Once Gulaba Khatri said that as Tenth Guru is no more he should be Guru,It was tested with his power and that of Five beloved one and he failed and we passed.So we are always ready to pas any Test as exminer is our Guru. 

We as individual are not Guru but as a whole and when we have essance of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in our heart.


Coming to Hindu factor,Das was a Hindu and whole family is Hindu.Ugradanti you also read,has term ourself as Third Faith and let Hindu Dharma all mist run away when we roar.

We are Sanatan Dharmis.And our Guru is Sanatan.Das request you to read Sarbloh Granth.and Nanak was told,so kio simariye Nanaka Jame Te Mar Jai,Eko simariey Nanaka Jo Jal Thal Rahiya Samaye.And non of you Satiguru including initial Ten are worth to be rembered.

Ten Masters were great as instead of there letting us follow there persinality,we were told by them to follow thier God.

as far as our relation with Britshers is concerned and thier influence das recomends you to visit

www.sarbloh.info to understand that.

Baba Balak Singh did get some Brahm Vidya from Udaseen Sants,which was pased to Baba Ram Singh Ji and he became spritualy power ful.Say if das shows you a simlar Udasi Sadhu doing more better yogic things so will you call him your Satiguru?


Yuo forget that what Namdhairs initaily use to say,it is variued version of Beej Mantra,Sat Akal Purakh.Turth is eternaly Complete.
we all are limits and are thnece incomplete.But Akal is eternal and complete as in all completely.

Das was told this by Guru of First Master(Sabad Guru as per Sidhg Gost) and Satiguru of Tenth Master Guru Panth Khalsa(Sarbloh Granth).

Das can help you anyway as so far you need to realise the truth.Yuo can ask your Satiguru for that and if he refuse you can come to das or you can come directly.

Ego can be for that who exsits but for Khalsa nothing else but Akal only exists.



			
				Sikh Namdhari said:
			
		

> Sat-Sri Akaal Vijaydeep Singhji
> 
> I must apologise in advance for any delays in responding to replys as I run a business and this debate is only something that I have got into in reluctant reaction to the many misconceptions that I read on the internet.
> 
> ...





			
				Sikh Namdhari said:
			
		

> Sat-Sri Akaal Vijaydeep Singhji
> 
> I must apologise in advance for any delays in responding to replys as I run a business and this debate is only something that I have got into in reluctant reaction to the many misconceptions that I read on the internet.
> 
> ...


 

Gurfateh

Bro,

Das here refers to Pratap Singh Mehta version only which is Namdhari version.So he even writes own views about your Satiguru and rewrites him as Satiguru Ram Singh Ji.Das interpreted the orgional version and comapred it with explantions and they were biased.

Sau Charan Pahul,it was nowhere writtan should be givne from water of the corner of Rumala of Guru Granth Sahib Ji,where human Guru did not exist.It was simply writtan take it from water dipped in Rumala and He wrote in bracked ,where Guru did not exists.


Now we come to concept of Panj Piaras.Well das is happy to inform you that Amrit Sansakr and Gurmantar you say is not the one.We are told to carry out Namabhiyas or Nam Drih by Singh repesetning Panth Guru.

It is not Fateh but Gurmatar has mnay more thing and lots of practice or Abhyas attached to it.

Then yourself Said that Guru Granth Sahib Ji can not guide us.Are you sure.Say If Akal wants why can not a person get enlightement just by reading.Is our God binded by anything.

Coming to Sabad Guru,read Sidh Gost in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which yourself are respecting.That Guru Nanak called his own Guru.So it can ot be our Guru.

Yuor Mahapursh had a copy of Sarbloh Granth,which they have lost why?Neeldharis still have it and they do not behold Baba Ram Singh Ji as Satiguru but form of Satiguru,if if you attain the state of Khalsa,your self can get.


First Master did say that he was one with Akal,Vachitar Natak,He said his name will not come but name of Akal will come.And Akal can give Guruship as mnay times Akal wants to as many people.Fact is that True Guru is fromless as in all forms(32 forms of Gurus can be refered to in Dasham Granth).Guru Panth and Guru Granth Ji are mere manifestations.

Sarbloh Granth further says, In Me(Tenth Nanak),in them(Khalsa) and in That(Akal) behold no difreance.Clarly 12 forms or Dwadash roops are writtan over there of Guru which is formless apprantly ie Ten Masters,Guru Granth and Guru Panth.

Even if we belive that Baba Ajpal Singh stayed concelaed for about say 90 to hundred years.In that time there were Many Khalsa Nam Abhiyasis who did not meet him and got salvation while being alive just by follwing Five Beloved ones,they did not meet Tenth Master also.

So one who gave baptism two Tenth Master were not weak.In Dasham Granth it is writtan that by thier mercy only we are created else billions or poors like me are lying.

Anf when Guru himself says Khalsa Mera Satiguru Poora or Khalsa is my complete Satiguru(Sarbloh Granth).And as per Bhangu like Guru Angad became Guru and Guru Nanak bowed to him so did Guru Gobind Singh Ji bowed to Khalsa.He took Tankha from Khalsa even once.

Yet das does not think any doubt should be left.


Anyway Purukh doe snot mean human but may mean male in Punjabi.But in Gurmat we need to understand that Satiguru does not mean any Human Guru.Even we need to understand that term Nanak is for second person and not First person in Guru Granht Sahib Ji.

Term Purukh is from term Purush in holy Vedas(Purush Sutra).As per  thaty defination Purush Evda Sarvada ie Purush ie Complete is one who is everywhere (in all time).

Purukh or Karta Purukh is not single entitiy wioth Mushriks(partners).Ie no one second other then Akal exisits.Till you know you are vedantic but when you realise that you are a Khalsa.

Das can not say that weather your presetn Satiguru Ji are making any one of his follower like that or not perhaps not becasue if they make any one just like him(if he himslef is Khalsa) then that person will stop following living Guru.


Das is repeating that we have Dehdhari Gurudevss in Sanatan Sikhs but that is simlar to the state of Sants of bibles in Holy Ghost ie Guru who is Akal overtaking the mind of Khalsa.

If you want das by mercy of his Guru Khalsa can let you come out of precived limitations in mind that without lving Guru ,there can nopt be salvations.It is posible by mercy of Akal.

Once Gulaba Khatri said that as Tenth Guru is no more he should be Guru,It was tested with his power and that of Five beloved one and he failed and we passed.So we are always ready to pas any Test as exminer is our Guru. 

We as individual are not Guru but as a whole and when we have essance of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in our heart.


Coming to Hindu factor,Das was a Hindu and whole family is Hindu.Ugradanti you also read,has term ourself as Third Faith and let Hindu Dharma all mist run away when we roar.

We are Sanatan Dharmis.And our Guru is Sanatan.Das request you to read Sarbloh Granth.and Nanak was told,so kio simariye Nanaka Jame Te Mar Jai,Eko simariey Nanaka Jo Jal Thal Rahiya Samaye.And non of you Satiguru including initial Ten are worth to be rembered.

Ten Masters were great as instead of there letting us follow there persinality,we were told by them to follow thier God.

as far as our relation with Britshers is concerned and thier influence das recomends you to visit

www.sarbloh.info to understand that.

Baba Balak Singh did get some Brahm Vidya from Udaseen Sants,which was pased to Baba Ram Singh Ji and he became spritualy power ful.Say if das shows you a simlar Udasi Sadhu doing more better yogic things so will you call him your Satiguru?


Yuo forget that what Namdhairs initaily use to say,it is variued version of Beej Mantra,Sat Akal Purakh.Turth is eternaly Complete.
we all are limits and are thnece incomplete.But Akal is eternal and complete as in all completely.

Das was told this by Guru of First Master(Sabad Guru as per Sidhg Gost) and Satiguru of Tenth Master Guru Panth Khalsa(Sarbloh Granth).

Das can help you anyway as so far you need to realise the truth.Yuo can ask your Satiguru for that and if he refuse you can come to das or you can come directly.

Ego can be for that who exsits but for Khalsa nothing else but Akal only exists.


----------



## Sikh Namdhari (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Sat-Sri Akaal to all

Firstly, apologies to you Dal Singhji for digressing on your topic. Although we have deviated from the 'Sants' topic, this discussion has relevence to the same. If you rather not, we can stop this discussion as it seems that I am beginning to upset a lot of people here and that is not good.

I would, however like to leave by reminding all that my aim is and always has been to clarify the Namdhari perspective on Sikhi, never to attack anyones beliefs. There is no reason to do this other than to dispel the misconceptions that one keeps reading and hearing about Namdharis.

From all of your replies one gets the impression that you think that Namdharis don't believe in Akaal Purakh. That somehow we don't believe in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.

From your replies one also gets the impression that some people are even relegating the first 10 Satgurus to mere mortals. You have all ignored the quotations that I have given from the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdas' Vaars regarding the definition of Guru/Satguru - WHY? Look back at the threads. 

I am not looking for a reply. 

Your faith is established on the *Nirgun* Form of Akaal Purakh.
Namdharis hold faith in the *Sargun* Form of Akaal Purakh as per the instructions of Satguru Nanakdevji.

Even if all of the Satgurus denied that they were not God incarnate, it is not the duty of us, who are not even the dust of their Charan to repeat such remarks. 

When a Satguru like Satguru Nanak Devji was asked, " Who is your Guru?" What does He reply, when He is Himself God incarnate? 

I'm not saying this from my will; '*.... Aap Narain Kaladhar Jag me Parvario..'* -Aadh Guru Granth Sahib

Divan Nand Lalji, Vah! Divan Nand Lalji. Have any of you read His Kabits regarding Satguru Gobind Singhji? And this is A Sikh that Satguruji kept by His side always. I doubt if Satguruji sent him to hell!
In one of his Kabits he, regarding Guruji as God incarnate says "...in just one strand of Your Kes....both this world and the next are bound..."
If Divan Nandlalji's vision of Guru Gobind Singhji is wrong then I admit defeat at your hands Veer Dal Singhji.

Learn about Nirgun and Sargun forms of God. This concept is present in ALL of the religions I have studied in one form or another. 

The truth about God exists in all religions, it is clouded only by ordinary mens' misconceptions. When men are removed from the presence of the Sargun manifestation of God through time or otherwise, their judgement gets clouded by maya and ego. This is proclaimed by the Sargun Swaroops who wrote the Gurbani of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. It is the Sargun form that we know as Satgur. And yes it is present in all of us, but it needs an Enlightened Soul to make us realise it. We have no power of our own. 

For all you who say "are the millions wrong who do not believe in a Living Guru? Are all the scholars wrong?"

My brothers and sisters, Gursikhi's foundations are not built on the schools and universities of man. It's foundations are those Satgurus, Sants and Bhagats who were and are One with God. If you want to discuss Sikhi, then quote examples from the Banis of Satgurus or those whom they endorse. 

I salute your faith, but request all of you who have had this dialogue with dass to refrain and request others to refrain from vilifying anyone who believes in a Dehdhari Guru. This is not the way of Sikhi.

May we all find peace.

Sat-Sri Akaal, Ji

Sat-Sri Akaal to all

Firstly, apologies to you Dal Singhji for digressing on your topic. Although we have deviated from the 'Sants' topic, this discussion has relevence to the same. If you rather not, we can stop this discussion as it seems that I am beginning to upset a lot of people here and that is not good.

I would, however like to leave by reminding all that my aim is and always has been to clarify the Namdhari perspective on Sikhi, never to attack anyones beliefs. There is no reason to do this other than to dispel the misconceptions that one keeps reading and hearing about Namdharis.

From all of your replies one gets the impression that you think that Namdharis don't believe in Akaal Purakh. That somehow we don't believe in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.

From your replies one also gets the impression that some people are even relegating the first 10 Satgurus to mere mortals. You have all ignored the quotations that I have given from the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdas' Vaars regarding the definition of Guru/Satguru - WHY? Look back at the threads. 

I am not looking for a reply. 

Your faith is established on the *Nirgun* Form of Akaal Purakh.
Namdharis hold faith in the *Sargun* Form of Akaal Purakh as per the instructions of Satguru Nanakdevji.

Even if all of the Satgurus denied that they were not God incarnate, it is not the duty of us, who are not even the dust of their Charan to repeat such remarks. 

When a Satguru like Satguru Nanak Devji was asked, " Who is your Guru?" What does He reply, when He is Himself God incarnate? 

I'm not saying this from my will; '*.... Aap Narain Kaladhaar Jag me Parvario..'* -Aadh Guru Granth Sahib

Divan Nand Lalji, Vah! Divan Nand Lalji. Have any of you read His Kabits regarding Satguru Gobind Singhji? And this is A Sikh that Satguruji kept by His side always. I doubt if Satguruji sent him to hell!
In one of his Kabits he, regarding Guruji as God incarnate says "...in just one strand of Your Kes....both this world and the next are bound..."
If Divan Nandlalji's vision of Guru Gobind Singhji is wrong then I admit defeat at your hands Veer Dal Singhji.

Learn about Nirgun and Sargun forms of God. This concept is present in ALL of the religions I have studied in one form or another. 

The truth about God exists in all religions, it is clouded only by ordinary mens' misconceptions. When men are removed from the presence of the Sargun manifestation of God through time or otherwise, their judgement gets clouded by maya and ego. This is proclaimed by the Sargun Swaroops who wrote the Gurbani of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. It is the Sargun form that we know as Satgur. And yes it is present in all of us, but it needs an Enlightened Soul to make us realise it. We have no power of our own. 

For all you who say "are the millions wrong who do not believe in a Living Guru? Are all the scholars wrong?"

My brothers and sisters, Gursikhi's foundations are not built on the schools and universities of man. It's foundations are those Satgurus, Sants and Bhagats who were and are One with God. If you want to discuss Sikhi, then quote examples from the Banis of Satgurus or those whom they endorse. 

I salute your faith, but request all of you who have had this dialogue with dass to refrain and request others to refrain from vilifying anyone who believes in a Dehdhari Guru. This is not the way of Sikhi.

May we all find peace.

Sat-Sri Akaal, Ji

Sat-Sri Akaal to all

Firstly, apologies to you Dal Singhji for digressing on your topic. Although we have deviated from the 'Sants' topic, this discussion has relevence to the same. If you rather not, we can stop this discussion as it seems that I am beginning to upset a lot of people here and that is not good.

I would, however like to leave by reminding all that my aim is and always has been to clarify the Namdhari perspective on Sikhi, never to attack anyones beliefs. There is no reason to do this other than to dispel the misconceptions that one keeps reading and hearing about Namdharis.

From all of your replies one gets the impression that you think that Namdharis don't believe in Akaal Purakh. That somehow we don't believe in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.

From your replies one also gets the impression that some people are even relegating the first 10 Satgurus to mere mortals. You have all ignored the quotations that I have given from the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdas' Vaars regarding the definition of Guru/Satguru - WHY? Look back at the threads. 

I am not looking for a reply. 

Your faith is established on the *Nirgun* Form of Akaal Purakh.
Namdharis hold faith in the *Sargun* Form of Akaal Purakh as per the instructions of Satguru Nanakdevji.

Even if all of the Satgurus denied that they were not God incarnate, it is not the duty of us, who are not even the dust of their Charan to repeat such remarks. 

When a Satguru like Satguru Nanak Devji was asked, " Who is your Guru?" What does He reply, when He is Himself God incarnate? 

I'm not saying this from my will; '*.... Aap Narain Kaladhaar Jag me Parvario..'* -Aadh Guru Granth Sahib

Divan Nand Lalji, Vah! Divan Nand Lalji. Have any of you read His Kabits regarding Satguru Gobind Singhji? And this is A Sikh that Satguruji kept by His side always. I doubt if Satguruji sent him to hell!
In one of his Kabits he, regarding Guruji as God incarnate says "...in just one strand of Your Kes....both this world and the next are bound..."
If Divan Nandlalji's vision of Guru Gobind Singhji is wrong then I admit defeat at your hands Veer Dal Singhji.

Learn about Nirgun and Sargun forms of God. This concept is present in ALL of the religions I have studied in one form or another. 

The truth about God exists in all religions, it is clouded only by ordinary mens' misconceptions. When men are removed from the presence of the Sargun manifestation of God through time or otherwise, their judgement gets clouded by maya and ego. This is proclaimed by the Sargun Swaroops who wrote the Gurbani of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. It is the Sargun form that we know as Satgur. And yes it is present in all of us, but it needs an Enlightened Soul to make us realise it. We have no power of our own. 

For all you who say "are the millions wrong who do not believe in a Living Guru? Are all the scholars wrong?"

My brothers and sisters, Gursikhi's foundations are not built on the schools and universities of man. It's foundations are those Satgurus, Sants and Bhagats who were and are One with God. If you want to discuss Sikhi, then quote examples from the Banis of Satgurus or those whom they endorse. 

I salute your faith, but request all of you who have had this dialogue with dass to refrain and request others to refrain from vilifying anyone who believes in a Dehdhari Guru. This is not the way of Sikhi.

May we all find peace.

Sat-Sri Akaal, Ji

Sorry about the above post. The system got jammed as I tried to rectify a spelling mistake. Please read the third Posting.


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## dalsingh (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Sants and Sikhi*

Namsdhari veer, some points

_Even if all of the Satgurus denied that they were not God incarnate, it is not the duty of us, who are not even the dust of their Charan to repeat such remarks._ 

Why is that? That is just plain dumb, I'm sorry but what you're saying is crazy here. Again, earlier you wrote about taking bani literally but now fail to do this when it suits you. 

Bhai Nand Lal may have been understandably mesmerised by the Guru, hence his enthusiastic comments that you mentioned.  

naanak eaek shhodd dhoojai lagai saa jihavaa jal jaao ||2||
O Nanak, let that tongue be burnt, which renounces the One Lord, and attaches itself to another. ||2||

I guess the point I originally wanted to discuss regarded the need of a human mediator between man and God.

Look you are more than entitled to your beliefs but there will always be some contention because the fundementals of what we each believe disagree. 

I'm not saying I'm a good Sikh but still, Sikhism for me is represented by 10 Guru's and SGGS. I don't believe that Baba Ajpal was Guru Gobind Singh, who hid whilst Banda was leading a rebellion. No disrespect intended.  For the record I do admire some of the reforms Namdharias trieds to initiate, and their bravery against the British (but not cow worship!)



But enough of this. Anyone knowledgable about dera sants? I don't want to insult them but just underdstand them. Please don't post to say "so and so is a great maha purusdh blah blah blah" and quote a few mythological type stories as proof. Serious discussion if you please.

I know of one dera type organisation in UK (Karamsar I think its called) and although I'm not sure about sant worship they do seem to do good work in teaching bani, music and Panjabi to the youth. Plus the Gurdwara is beautiful. I just have trouble swallowing the formalised sant worship bit and what generally seems to be a complete ignoring of the militant/warrior side of Sikhi. 

However I must admit that even this Gurdwara recently had a programme celebrating Sant Bhindranwala, at the behest of the youth. Indicating a recognition of this important aspect of Sikhism.


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## RJames (Aug 9, 2006)

*Of Sants and Sikhi*

Here's an elementary question from a newbie posting for the first time:

The evolution of my faith and understanding of God's message has come from the following sources;
1) a personal experience of God's grace,
2) transcribing word for word the gurbani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,
3) reading interpretive texts such as Harbans Singh Doabia's "Sacred Nitnem", Balwinder Singh's "Fifty-Two Commandments of Guru Gobind Singh" and Surinder Singh Kohli's series "Guru Granth Sahib Speaks"
4) contemplation and reflection, and
5) prayer.  

I pray to God, not any other Guru or Sant.  I foresee the day that I will be one among the Sat Sangat as I often feel the Guru's call to join them.  

On the recommendation of a good friend, I have sought recordings of Sant Maskin's interpretation of gurbani.  I see Sant Maskin as a conduit through whose interpretation of gurbani I may gain a deeper understanding of God's message in the hymns of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Please render your thoughts on Sant Maskin and my intention to add his interpretation of gurbani to my studies.


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## dalsingh (Aug 9, 2006)

I must confess I know little about Sant Maskeen other than what I read on a thread regarding his death on this website.

What I would say is that we are free to use a number of available commentaries on Sikhi. One issue highlighted by another, on the previously mentioned thread, was an inclination to intrepret sabad with a vedantic leaning. If this is true than you need to be cautious you do not get entangled in Hindu mythology, and mistakenly take this to be Sikh belief. 

I founds the works of Bhai Gurdas (traditionally refered to as the 'key to the SGGS' very useful in understanding some doctrines of Sikh thought as the language is comparitively simple and closer to the Panjabi I know. 

But this your personal spiritual journey and I temper what i say with the knowledge that my own is at a nascent stage.

All the best


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## Josh martin (Jul 12, 2009)

> I'm wondering, if Singhs held beliefs like this in the past, what is the position regarding sant worship?


 Where excatly in Gurbani does it state not to worship Sants. We bow down to Sants everyday in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  Read Gurbani cited in earlier replies to see how highly Bani talks of Sants.


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## spnadmin (Jul 12, 2009)

Josh martin said:


> Where excatly in Gurbani does it state not to worship Sants. We bow down to Sants everyday in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  Read Gurbani cited in earlier replies to see how highly Bani talks of Sants.



josh ji

Who is the "we" you continually refer to? Ad consider the logical construction of the sentence, "We bow down to Sants everyday in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji."  Do *we *indeed? I suppose as an incarnation of one of the Nanaks, Bhagats or Sants, we might bown down to Sants everyday in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  Who is* we?*


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