# How Sweet Is Wahiguru! What Wahiguru Can Do And How One Can Comprehend



## Ambarsaria (Jul 24, 2011)

Helping out on a suggestion of fellow spner, Bhagat Singh ji (originally from prakash.s.bagga ji),

Three Shabads to Ponder for,



> *1.  How sweet is Wahiguru*
> 
> ਰਾਗੁ  ਸੂਹੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ਛੰਤ
> रागु सूही महला ५ छंत
> ...





> *
> 2. what Wahiguru can do*
> 
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ ਜਾ  ਕਉ  ਮੁਸਕਲੁ  ਅਤਿ  ਬਣੈ  ਢੋਈ  ਕੋਇ  ਨ  ਦੇਇ  ॥ ਲਾਗੂ  ਹੋਏ  ਦੁਸਮਨਾ  ਸਾਕ  ਭਿ  ਭਜਿ  ਖਲੇ  ॥ ਸਭੋ  ਭਜੈ  ਆਸਰਾ  ਚੁਕੈ  ਸਭੁ  ਅਸਰਾਉ  ॥ ਚਿਤਿ  ਆਵੈ  ਓਸੁ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਲਗੈ  ਨ  ਤਤੀ  ਵਾਉ  ॥੧॥
> ...





> *3. how one can comprehend*
> 
> 
> ਸੂਹੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੩  ॥ ਹਰਿ  ਜੀ  ਸੂਖਮੁ  ਅਗਮੁ  ਹੈ  ਕਿਤੁ  ਬਿਧਿ  ਮਿਲਿਆ  ਜਾਇ  ॥ ਗੁਰ  ਕੈ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਭ੍ਰਮੁ  ਕਟੀਐ  ਅਚਿੰਤੁ  ਵਸੈ  ਮਨਿ  ਆਇ  ॥੧॥
> ...


Let us see how we can help each other at spn.  



I will add my understanding in English as I see it (*added in red*) based on Professor Sahib Singh ji's, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's and reading Gurbani myself.


Thank you.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2011)

The alternative spellings in English transliteration (e.g. GuRU) have been edited to something more standard.


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## Ishna (Jul 25, 2011)

wahkaur

Thank you Ambarsaria for bringing that beautiful Gurbani to us and sharing your understanding with us.

Truly there is nothing which can calm the wavering mind like Gurbani.

When I started reading Srirag Mehla 5, second stanza, I was like "*sigh*, that's not me, thankfully I'm not in poverty, but Guruji's not speaking to me" in my selfish, wavering mind... Then I read stanza 3 and began to cry! *blush*

thank you again for sharing this, friend. *hug*

ishna


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2011)

Beautiful,  Ambersariaji , I rarely rarely read pure gurbani, but that all made a lot of sense, and your interpretations bring it into the real world.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2011)

*Forum members need to abide by Terms of Service, including the discussion of issues not personalities. Violations will be deleted without prior warning. Thanks. *


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2011)

HAVE A LOOK AT THESE WALLPAPERS CREATED BY MY BROTHER IN CANADA..DASRA PREM SINGH..
DOES WAHEGURU COME ACROSS AS PERSONAL OR FAR AWAY AND IMPERSONAL ??

These tuks can stand alone and there is no attempt to convey something which the complete shabad doesnt convey.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 26, 2011)

There is very conspicuous difference between WahiGuru and GuR Jot.
WAHi Guru is the Source as well as content of GuR Jot.
This difference can be understood as between a Mala and its Manakaa.
WAHi Guru is like Manakaa and Mala like GuR Jot.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jul 26, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is very conspicuous difference between WahiGuru and GuR Jot.
> WAHi Guru is the Source as well as content of GuR Jot.
> This difference can be understood as between a Mala and its Manakaa.
> WAHi Guru is like Manakaa and Mala like GuR Jot.
> ...



Please elaborate on your meaning Prakash S. Bagga ji.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 26, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji please answer directly the following as now your supposition is becoming clearer,



prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is very conspicuous difference between WahiGuru and GuR Jot.
> 
> > WAHi Guru is the Source as well as content of GuR Jot.
> 
> ...



Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 26, 2011)

GuR JoT is infinite with infinite Mankaas.So GuR Jot is Limitless ,Endless and Unmeasureable.
GuR Jot is every thing.
It is GuR JoT which is described in the very first line of SGGS  as up to GuR Prasaadi
 According to Gurbani It is all GuR JoT  as

Gur Jot is SATi GuR,Parbrahm,Parmeswar
GuR Jot is Hari, Ram.Gobind,Gopal,Sadh,Sant,Prabh,Thakur,Ekas,GuR,Sajan,Pritam,
              Akal Purakh,Govind, Narayan,Ekankaar,Sahib,Sah,Pria,Madhav,Bhawan,
              Raghunath,Parvardigaar,Alah,Raheem,Kareem.,and so many
              All Noun and Adjective words are for GuR JoT only
              So GuR JoT is having ASAKH NAO   Countless.

I can only say as  'Kot Brahmand Ko Thakur Swami Hau Kiya Janna Oae Kaeso Re
                          Karun Banati SatiGur Apne Mae Moorakh Deho Updeso Re"
                          pp612 SGGS

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 26, 2011)

It would be interesting to understand that even the whole 
Gurbani is GuR JoT only.

Prakash.s.bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 26, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> GuR JoT is infinite with infinite Mankaas.So GuR Jot is Limitless ,Endless and Unmeasureable.
> GuR Jot is every thing.It is GuR JoT which is described in the very first line of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji  as up to GuR Prasaadi​_It is the one Creator which is defined in the first line._​According to Gurbani It is all GuR JoT  as​_According to Gurbani everything, everyone and all is part of creation and none superior._
> 
> _Naming the following names is superfluous as you might as well put Prakash.s.bagga, aman singh, spnadmin, and all your friends name in it._​
> ...


Prakash.s.bagga ji your dissection makes no sense to me.  There is one creator and one creation.

Goal of Gurbani is to understand one creator and one creation and us being part of such creation.

There are no upper or lower classes in creation.  You were created as good as Ram, Krishna, and everyone else.  From there on you choose what to become.

In the end, in all honesty you are sharing just your confusion as I see.  There is still time to understand. mundahug

Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 26, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I value your understanding .
You may refer all this as confusion but my view is that without understanding of GurJot it is just not possible to grasp the essence of Gurbani.
The correct evaluation of any understanding always lies in the womb of time and at appropriate time only it becomes clear.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ishna (Jul 27, 2011)

I think today's Hukamnama speaks of closeness and sweetness of Waheguru:

Ang 722

ਤਿਲੰਗ  ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ 
 Ŧilang mėhlā 1. 
 Tilang, First Mehl: 

 ਇਆਨੜੀਏ  ਮਾਨੜਾ  ਕਾਇ  ਕਰੇਹਿ  ॥ 
 I▫ānṛī▫e mānṛā kā▫e karehi. 
 O foolish and ignorant soul-bride, why are you so proud? 

 ਆਪਨੜੈ  ਘਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਰੰਗੋ  ਕੀ  ਨ  ਮਾਣੇਹਿ  ॥ 
 Āpnaṛai gẖar har rango kī na māṇėh. 
 Within the home of your own self, why do you not enjoy the Love of your Lord? 

 ਸਹੁ  ਨੇੜੈ  ਧਨ  ਕੰਮਲੀਏ  ਬਾਹਰੁ  ਕਿਆ  ਢੂਢੇਹਿ  ॥ 
 Saho neṛai ḏẖan kammlī▫e bāhar ki▫ā dẖūdẖehi. 
 Your Husband Lord is so very near, O foolish bride; why do you search for Him outside? 

 ਭੈ  ਕੀਆ  ਦੇਹਿ  ਸਲਾਈਆ  ਨੈਣੀ  ਭਾਵ  ਕਾ  ਕਰਿ  ਸੀਗਾਰੋ  ॥ 
 Bẖai kī▫ā ḏėh salā▫ī▫ā naiṇī bẖāv kā kar sīgāro. 
 Apply the Fear of God as the mascara to adorn your eyes, and make the Love of the Lord your ornament. 

 ਤਾ  ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ  ਜਾਣੀਐ  ਲਾਗੀ  ਜਾ  ਸਹੁ  ਧਰੇ  ਪਿਆਰੋ  ॥੧॥ 
 Ŧā sohagaṇ jāṇī▫ai lāgī jā saho ḏẖare pi▫āro. ||1|| 
 Then, you shall be known as a devoted and committed soul-bride, when you enshrine love for your Husband Lord. ||1|| 

 ਇਆਣੀ  ਬਾਲੀ  ਕਿਆ  ਕਰੇ  ਜਾ  ਧਨ  ਕੰਤ  ਨ  ਭਾਵੈ  ॥ 
 I▫āṇī bālī ki▫ā kare jā ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāvai. 
 What can the silly young bride do, if she is not pleasing to her Husband Lord? 

 ਕਰਣ  ਪਲਾਹ  ਕਰੇ  ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ  ਸਾ  ਧਨ  ਮਹਲੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਵੈ  ॥ 
 Karaṇ palāh kare bahuṯere sā ḏẖan mahal na pāvai. 
 She may plead and implore so many times, but still, such a bride shall not obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. 

 ਵਿਣੁ  ਕਰਮਾ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਜੇ  ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ  ਧਾਵੈ  ॥ 
 viṇ karmā kicẖẖ pā▫ī▫ai nāhī je bahuṯerā ḏẖāvai. 
 Without the karma of good deeds, nothing is obtained, although she may run around frantically. 

 ਲਬ  ਲੋਭ  ਅਹੰਕਾਰ  ਕੀ  ਮਾਤੀ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਸਮਾਣੀ  ॥ 
 Lab lobẖ ahaŉkār kī māṯī mā▫i▫ā māhi samāṇī. 
 She is intoxicated with greed, pride and egotism, and engrossed in Maya. 

 ਇਨੀ  ਬਾਤੀ  ਸਹੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਭਈ  ਕਾਮਣਿ  ਇਆਣੀ  ॥੨॥ 
 Inī bāṯī saho pā▫ī▫ai nāhī bẖa▫ī kāmaṇ i▫āṇī. ||2|| 
 She cannot obtain her Husband Lord in these ways; the young bride is so foolish! ||2|| 

 ਜਾਇ  ਪੁਛਹੁ  ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ  ਵਾਹੈ  ਕਿਨੀ  ਬਾਤੀ  ਸਹੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 Jā▫e pucẖẖahu sohāgaṇī vāhai kinī bāṯī saho pā▫ī▫ai. 
 Go and ask the happy, pure soul-brides, how did they obtain their Husband Lord? 

 ਜੋ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਸੋ  ਭਲਾ  ਕਰਿ  ਮਾਨੀਐ  ਹਿਕਮਤਿ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਚੁਕਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 Jo kicẖẖ kare so bẖalā kar mānī▫ai hikmaṯ hukam cẖukẖā▫ī▫ai. 
 Whatever the Lord does, accept that as good; do away with your own cleverness and self-will. 

 ਜਾ  ਕੈ  ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ  ਪਦਾਰਥੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਤਉ  ਚਰਣੀ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਲਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 Jā kai parem paḏārath pā▫ī▫ai ṯa▫o cẖarṇī cẖiṯ lā▫ī▫ai. 
 By His Love, true wealth is obtained; link your consciousness to His lotus feet. 

 ਸਹੁ  ਕਹੈ  ਸੋ  ਕੀਜੈ  ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੋ  ਦੀਜੈ  ਐਸਾ  ਪਰਮਲੁ  ਲਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 Saho kahai so kījai ṯan mano ḏījai aisā parmal lā▫ī▫ai. 
 As your Husband Lord directs, so you must act; surrender your body and mind to Him, and apply this perfume to yourself. 

 ਏਵ  ਕਹਹਿ  ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ  ਭੈਣੇ  ਇਨੀ  ਬਾਤੀ  ਸਹੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥੩॥ 
 Ėv kahėh sohāgaṇī bẖaiṇe inī bāṯī saho pā▫ī▫ai. ||3|| 
 So speaks the happy soul-bride, O sister; in this way, the Husband Lord is obtained. ||3|| 

 ਆਪੁ  ਗਵਾਈਐ  ਤਾ  ਸਹੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਅਉਰੁ  ਕੈਸੀ  ਚਤੁਰਾਈ  ॥ 
 Āp gavā▫ī▫ai ṯā saho pā▫ī▫ai a▫or kaisī cẖaṯurā▫ī. 
 Give up your selfhood, and so obtain your Husband Lord; what other clever tricks are of any use? 

 ਸਹੁ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਦੇਖੈ  ਸੋ  ਦਿਨੁ  ਲੇਖੈ  ਕਾਮਣਿ  ਨਉ  ਨਿਧਿ  ਪਾਈ  ॥ 
 Saho naḏar kar ḏekẖai so ḏin lekẖai kāmaṇ na▫o niḏẖ pā▫ī. 
 When the Husband Lord looks upon the soul-bride with His Gracious Glance, that day is historic - the bride obtains the nine treasures. 

 ਆਪਣੇ  ਕੰਤ  ਪਿਆਰੀ  ਸਾ  ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਾ  ਸਭਰਾਈ  ॥ 
 Āpṇe kanṯ pi▫ārī sā sohagaṇ Nānak sā sabẖrā▫ī. 
 She who is loved by her Husband Lord, is the true soul-bride; O Nanak, she is the queen of all. 

 ਐਸੈ  ਰੰਗਿ  ਰਾਤੀ  ਸਹਜ  ਕੀ  ਮਾਤੀ  ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ  ਭਾਇ  ਸਮਾਣੀ  ॥ 
 Aise rang rāṯī sahj kī māṯī ahinis bẖā▫e samāṇī. 
 Thus she is imbued with His Love, intoxicated with delight; day and night, she is absorbed in His Love. 

 ਸੁੰਦਰਿ  ਸਾਇ  ਸਰੂਪ  ਬਿਚਖਣਿ  ਕਹੀਐ  ਸਾ  ਸਿਆਣੀ  ॥੪॥੨॥੪॥ 
 Sunḏar sā▫e sarūp bicẖkẖaṇ kahī▫ai sā si▫āṇī. ||4||2||4|| 
 She is beautiful, glorious and brilliant; she is known as truly wise. ||4||2||4|| 
wahkaur

My question would be, how do you comprehend what the directions are so you can act accordingly?  Is it an intuitive knowing you get from reading Gurbani and getting it set in your mind so your just KNOW?  How do you know when you are picking up Waheguru's directions and it's not your own egotistical mind directing you?

Perhaps I'm approaching Gurbani a little bit too literally and it's not directing precisely but more like 'as creation unravels itself'?

ਸਹੁ  ਕਹੈ  ਸੋ  ਕੀਜੈ  ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੋ  ਦੀਜੈ  ਐਸਾ  ਪਰਮਲੁ  ਲਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 Saho kahai so kījai ṯan mano ḏījai aisā parmal lā▫ī▫ai. 
 As your Husband Lord directs, so you must act; surrender your body and mind to Him, and apply this perfume to yourself.

Gurfateh
Ish


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## Ishna (Jul 27, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji you are such a sweet sevadar.  kaurhug


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 27, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Ambarsaria ji you are such a sweet sevadar.  kaurhug





> ਤਿਲੰਗ  ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ ਇਆਨੜੀਏ  ਮਾਨੜਾ  ਕਾਇ  ਕਰੇਹਿ  ॥ ਆਪਨੜੈ  ਘਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਰੰਗੋ  ਕੀ  ਨ  ਮਾਣੇਹਿ  ॥ ਸਹੁ  ਨੇੜੈ  ਧਨ  ਕੰਮਲੀਏ  ਬਾਹਰੁ  ਕਿਆ  ਢੂਢੇਹਿ  ॥ ਭੈ  ਕੀਆ  ਦੇਹਿ  ਸਲਾਈਆ  ਨੈਣੀ  ਭਾਵ  ਕਾ  ਕਰਿ  ਸੀਗਾਰੋ  ॥ ਤਾ  ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ  ਜਾਣੀਐ  ਲਾਗੀ  ਜਾ  ਸਹੁ  ਧਰੇ  ਪਿਆਰੋ  ॥੧॥
> तिलंग मः १ ॥ इआनड़ीए मानड़ा काइ करेहि ॥ आपनड़ै घरि हरि रंगो की न माणेहि ॥ सहु नेड़ै धन कमलीए बाहरु किआ ढूढेहि ॥ भै कीआ देहि सलाईआ नैणी भाव का करि सीगारो ॥ ता सोहागणि जाणीऐ लागी जा सहु धरे पिआरो ॥१॥
> Ŧilang mėhlā 1. I▫ānṛī▫e mānṛā kā▫e karehi. Āpnaṛai gẖar har rango kī na māṇėh. Saho neṛai ḏẖan kammlī▫e bāhar ki▫ā dẖūdẖehi. Bẖai kī▫ā ḏėh salā▫ī▫ā naiṇī bẖāv kā kar sīgāro. Ŧā sohagaṇ jāṇī▫ai lāgī jā saho ḏẖare pi▫āro. ||1||
> Tilang, First Mehl: O foolish and ignorant soul-bride, why are you so proud? Within the home of your own self, why do you not enjoy the Love of your Lord? Your Husband Lord is so very near, O foolish bride; why do you search for Him outside? Apply the Fear of God as the mascara to adorn your eyes, and make the Love of the Lord your ornament. Then, you shall be known as a devoted and committed soul-bride, when you enshrine love for your Husband Lord. ||1||
> ...


Above for consideration and all errors are mine and comments/corrections welcome.

Now Ishna ji your question and some comments,



> My question would be, how do you comprehend what the directions are so  you can act accordingly?
> _Ishna ji directions get clear if you get to the essence and beyond say literal translation in English.  The essence does depend upon having awareness of the environ in which the Shabad could possibly have been written.  In this case the elements of the relationship of a wife and husband as symbology.  __Then the specifics of how a wife (Guru ji posing as a wife in symbol to Husband "The Creator") will use makeup, ornaments and perfume and smell nice._
> 
> Is it an intuitive knowing you get from  reading Gurbani and getting it set in your mind so your just KNOW?
> ...


Hope above is appropriate, let me know any comments.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jul 28, 2011)

Awesome information Ambarsaria ji.  Thanks for taking the time to explain what is probably obvious and simple to you, to someone a little bit thick, like myself.


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## Ishna (Jul 28, 2011)

As Harry ji found some shabads which seemed to be written just for him, I think I found one of mine (at this point in time).  And it references the closeness of Sri Waheguru Ji.  Ambarsaria ji, I'm not expecting you to write a meaning for every shabad I post here, and I hope you don't mind me adding shabads about closeness to your thread. (let me know if I'm going off topic and I'll stop!)

Ang 612

ਸੋਰਠਿ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
 Soraṯẖ mėhlā 5. 
 Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl: 

 ਕੋਟਿ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ  ਕੋ  ਠਾਕੁਰੁ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਸਰਬ  ਜੀਆ  ਕਾ  ਦਾਤਾ  ਰੇ  ॥ 
 Kot barahmand ko ṯẖākur su▫āmī sarab jī▫ā kā ḏāṯā re. 
 God is the Lord and Master of millions of universes; He is the Giver of all beings. 

 ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੈ  ਨਿਤ  ਸਾਰਿ  ਸਮਾਲੈ  ਇਕੁ  ਗੁਨੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਮੂਰਖਿ  ਜਾਤਾ  ਰੇ  ॥੧॥ 
 Paraṯipālai niṯ sār samālai ik gun nahī mūrakẖ jāṯā re. ||1|| 
 He ever cherishes and cares for all beings, but the fool does not appreciate any of His virtues. ||1|| 

 ਹਰਿ  ਆਰਾਧਿ  ਨ  ਜਾਨਾ  ਰੇ  ॥ 
 Har ārāḏẖ na jānā re. 
 I do not know how to worship the Lord in adoration. 

 ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਰੇ  ॥ 
 Har har gur gur karṯā re. 
 I can only repeat, "Lord, Lord, Guru, Guru". 

 ਹਰਿ  ਜੀਉ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਿਓ  ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ  ॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 Har jī▫o nām pari▫o Rāmḏās. Rahā▫o. 
 O Dear Lord, I go by the name of the Lord's slave. ||Pause|| 

 ਦੀਨ  ਦਇਆਲ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ  ਸੁਖ  ਸਾਗਰ  ਸਰਬ  ਘਟਾ  ਭਰਪੂਰੀ  ਰੇ  ॥ 
 Ḏīn ḏa▫i▫āl kirpāl sukẖ sāgar sarab gẖatā bẖarpūrī re. 
 The Compassionate Lord is Merciful to the meek, the ocean of peace; He fills all hearts. 

 ਪੇਖਤ  ਸੁਨਤ  ਸਦਾ  ਹੈ  ਸੰਗੇ  ਮੈ  ਮੂਰਖ  ਜਾਨਿਆ  ਦੂਰੀ  ਰੇ  ॥੨॥ 
 Pekẖaṯ sunaṯ saḏā hai sange mai mūrakẖ jāni▫ā ḏūrī re. ||2|| 
 He sees, hears, and is always with me; but I am a fool, and I think that He is far away. ||2|| 

 ਹਰਿ  ਬਿਅੰਤੁ  ਹਉ  ਮਿਤਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਵਰਨਉ  ਕਿਆ  ਜਾਨਾ  ਹੋਇ  ਕੈਸੋ  ਰੇ  ॥ 
 Har bi▫anṯ ha▫o miṯ kar varna▫o ki▫ā jānā ho▫e kaiso re. 
 The Lord is limitless, but I can only describe Him within my limitations; what do I know, about what He is like? 

 ਕਰਉ  ਬੇਨਤੀ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਅਪੁਨੇ  ਮੈ  ਮੂਰਖ  ਦੇਹੁ  ਉਪਦੇਸੋ  ਰੇ  ॥੩॥ 
 Kara▫o benṯī saṯgur apune mai mūrakẖ ḏeh upḏeso re. ||3|| 
 I offer my prayer to my True Guru; I am so foolish - please, teach me! ||3|| 

 ਮੈ  ਮੂਰਖ  ਕੀ  ਕੇਤਕ  ਬਾਤ  ਹੈ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਪਰਾਧੀ  ਤਰਿਆ  ਰੇ  ॥ 
 Mai mūrakẖ kī keṯak bāṯ hai kot parāḏẖī ṯari▫ā re. 
 I am just a fool, but millions of sinners just like me have been saved. 

 ਗੁਰੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਜਿਨ  ਸੁਣਿਆ  ਪੇਖਿਆ  ਸੇ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਗਰਭਾਸਿ  ਨ  ਪਰਿਆ  ਰੇ  ॥੪॥੨॥੧੩॥ 
 Gur Nānak jin suṇi▫ā pekẖi▫ā se fir garbẖās na pari▫ā re. ||4||2||13|| 
 Those who have heard, and seen Guru Nanak, do not descend into the womb of reincarnation again. ||4||2||13|| 


I don't understand the last line yet... but it is interesting to note that this shabad is by Guru Arjun Dev Ji who was not alive when Guru Nanak was alive so it obviously means something metaphorical.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 28, 2011)

Ishna ji it is taking time but it is of help to me as well as I learn.  So no sweat and I agree with you I may not post my understanding for each Shabad.  At one time I thought I will do whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, I do not know if I have the time left in life or resources at present to do so.

This is not my thread but I love when others become part of the development of a thread.  Post away shabads and your thoughts, don't be shy.  _Oh that is an oxy {censored}_; Ishna ji, Harry ji, Sinner ji, spnadmin ji, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Aman Singh ji, Randip Singh ji, findingmyway ji, Bhagat Singh ji, prakash.s.bagga ji;  _and shy_ lol.  That is the way it needs to be for true discourse.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 28, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is very conspicuous difference between WahiGuru and GuR Jot.
> WAHi Guru is the Source as well as content of GuR Jot.
> This difference can be understood as between a Mala and its Manakaa.
> WAHi Guru is like Manakaa and Mala like GuR Jot.
> ...



Veer Ji,

Perhaps this will clarify/help...

 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Before  going into further veechar about any characters within Gurbani and how  they symbolise Brain and Mind, it will be better if try to understand  two key words of Gurbani – Jot and Joti.

 Normally, these two words are taken as synonyms within Gurbani but we  need to closely look into these words before coming to any conclusion.  Firstly, let’s start with the word Jot and see in what context it is  coming within Gurbani

 1)       ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
2)       ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
 3)       ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥4॥
 4)       ਸਗਲੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਜੋੜਿ ਵਿਛੋੜੇ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥4॥

 One thing that becomes quite clear from above panktees is that Jot is a  plural word and is used for Jot within us. Jot is not used for Waheguru  Ji, it’s used for HIS element that is within us. Another pankti, which  clearly distinguishes between our Jot and HIM is

 ਸਭ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਗਜੀਵਨਾ ਤੂ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਰੰਗਨਾ ॥

 This pankti clearly provides a clear  distinction between Jot and  JagJeevan.  All Jots are of JagJeevan. It means Jot is different from  Jag Jeevan.

Now let’s try to understand the concept of Joti within Gurbani:
 1)       ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕੁ ਪਸਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥4॥3॥10॥
2)       ਕਮਲੁ ਬਿਗਾਸਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥6॥
 3)       ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥5॥
 4)       ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥4॥2॥19॥
5)       ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਨ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ॥7॥

 One thing becomes apparent from above panktees is that there are two  entities Jot and Joti. Jot has to merge within Joti. Joti is like an  Ocean and is used to symbolise HIM and Jot is like a drop from that  ocean and is used to symbolise us or every form of life. In following  pankti Gurbani further clarifies that Joti is singular

 ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤੀ

 By now most of you would have guessed that it’s nothing but Nirgun and  Sargun Saroop of Waheguru Ji and it’s nothing new. We have taken this  topic of discussion because of following reasons:

1)      To identify the relation between mind and these two Jots
 2)      To identify how else Gurbani distinguishes between these two jots by using similar words


*1)     **Relation between mind and these two Jots*

Now that we know there are two Jots within Gurbani i.e. Jot and Joti. Let’s see which one is Mind linked to?

 ਮਨ ਤੂੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥

 Mind is embodiment of Jot and not Joti. Jot is HIS light within us and  then out of this Jot, Mind has taken the birth. Jot is exactly same  within everyone; animal, birds, human beings etc but mind is different  for everyone. It’s that part of Jot which is now connected to Maya and  everyone’s connection to Maya is different; depending upon their  personal circumstances, surroundings, brought up, views and ideologies.  The first step is to know jot within our self, which is commonly  referred as Aatam Darshan, Aatam Khoj or Aatam Gian. Within the same  Shabad, Gurbani then guides us the path to Paarbraham:

 ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਤਾਂ ਸਹੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥

 Once again this pankti is addressed to Mind. O Mind’ once you identify  your origin, then only you shall know your Husband (Paarbraham).

Normally,  mind is thought to be originated directly from Joti (Paarbraham) but  from above examples, it’s apparent that we have missed a step in  between. The first step is to know our self and then Jot or drop of  water will automatically guide us to the Ocean. Drop always knows where  Ocean is and that’s one of the reasons why humility is so much stressed  within Gurbani. The drop of water knows that it has to keep going  downwards to meet the ocean and similar is the case with Jot; Humility  will automatically lead the Jot to merge into Ocean (JOTI), one day.

*How else Gurbani portrays this relationship between these three (mind, Jot and Joti)?*

Let’s look at following pankti from Satta & Balwand Jee

ਪਿਯੂ ਦਾਦੇ ਜੇਵਿਹਾ ਪੋਤਾ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

This  pankti is normally interpreted as if it’s being referred to GURU  Amardaas ji and His father is Guru Angad Dev Ji and Grand Father as Guru  Nanak Dev Ji. There are only two possibilities on how Guru Nanak Dev  Jee and Guru Angad Dev Jee could be forefathers of Guru Amardass Jee:

 1)      At the level of Jot – Let’s assume they were forefathers at the  level of Jot. Now let’s look at following pankti from same bani of Satta  and Balwand Jee

ਜੋਤਿ ਓਹਾ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਾਇ ਸਹਿ ਕਾਇਆ ਫੇਰਿ ਪਲਟੀਐ ॥

If  Jot is same, then how can it become Father and Grand Father. Then in  this pankti, Satta Balwand Jee should have mentioned that Jot is not  same. It’s grandson of First Nanak’s Jot. It means at the level of Jot  Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Guru Angad Dev Jee are not forefathers of Guru  Amardaas Jee. Now let’s go to second assumption

 2)      At biological level – May be Guru Amardaas Jee was born at house of Guru Angad Dev jee.

Now let’s look at following panktee from same Baani by Satta and Balwand Jee

ਫੇਰਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ਫੇਰੁਆਣਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਖਾਡੂਰੁ ॥

This panktee is normally interpreted as follows:
*“Then, the True Guru, the son of Pheru, came to dwell at Khadoor”*

 Here  in same bani it’s being interpreted that Guru Amardaas Jee was born at  the house of Pheru Mal Jee. Hence, we couldn’t find this relation of  father, son at any level. Let’s try to look at this in light of veechar  that we have done above for – Mind, Jot and Joti.


ਸੋ ਟਿਕਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਹਣਾ ਸੋਈ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
 ਪਿਯੂ ਦਾਦੇ ਜੇਵਿਹਾ ਪੋਤਾ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

 This panktee is describing the spiritual state of Guru Amardaas Jee.  It’s addressed to Mind of Guru Amardaas jee, Gurbani guides us that  grandson (Mind of Guru Amardaas Jee) has got same stillness (ਟਿਕਾ),  sitting (settled ਬੈਹਣਾ) and spiritual throne (ਦੀਬਾਣੁ) like Father (*Jot*) and Grand Father (*Joti*).   Here Tikka doesn’t refer to Tikka of Hinduism but refers to stillness  (ਟਿਕਾਅ).We are so immersed into rituals of Brahmanism that we connected  sakhis of Guru Sahibaans with Tikaa, whereas Gurbani is against such  things from the step one itself. Once again Gurbani is addressed to Mind  and Body and has no reference to physical entities. Even in the  following pankti, it’s possibly not referring to Guru Amardaas Jee being  son of Pheru Mal Jee.

 ਫੇਰਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ਫੇਰੁਆਣਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਖਾਡੂਰੁ ॥

 Guru Amardaas Jee’s father was Pheru Mal and not Pheru Aan, as mentioned  above. We just saw similar words and tried to link the things to names  that we found in physical world. The word Vasaya (ਵਸਾਇਆ) can possibly be  combination of (ਵਸ+ ਆਇਆ) which means it came under control. The word  Pheruaan (ਫੇਰੁਆਣਿ) can possibly be combination of (ਫੇਰੁ + ਆਣਿ) which  means the one who used to have the Phere (circles) of maya i.e. Mind. It  means that the mind which was spiralled into the web of Maya is now  under control. The next part of this panktee needs deeper veechar about  what is Khaadur of spiritual world, which we will try to discuss in some  other veechar.

 The main point of this veechar is that we need to identify relation  between three things in spiritual world i.e. Mind, Jot and Joti.

*2)     **How else Gurbani distinguishes between these two jots by using similar words*

 From above reference it’s become quite clear that Mind has to first meet  its own origin (Jot) and then lead into Joti. These two Jotis are  referred by various names within Gurbani but with slight variation. The  sample list of words used for Jot

 Prabh (ਪ੍ਰਭ)  ,Har(i) (ਹਰਿ), Ram (ਰਾਮ),Parmatm (ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮ), Bhagwaan (ਭਗਵਾਨ), Chit (ਚਿਤ), Gobind (ਗੋਬਿੰਦ) ,Gopal (ਗੋਪਾਲ)

Sample list of names used for Joti

Prabhu (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ), Hari (ਹਰੀ), Paarbraham (ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ), Parmeshar (ਪਰਮੇਸਰ)

Another  rule of thumb to identify this distinction is that normally the words  used to signify our internal Jot are pre-fixed with Mera (ਮੇਰਾ), Mere  (ਮੇਰੇ) or Apna (ਅਪਨਾ); whereas words used to represent HIM are never  pre-fixed with Mera (ਮੇਰਾ), Mere (ਮੇਰੇ) or Apna (ਅਪਨਾ). For e.g. on  numerous occasions we can find Mere Raam (ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ) , Prabh Mere (ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਮੇਰੇ), Mere Har (ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ) ,Mere Gobind (ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ), Mere Gopal (ਮੇਰੇ  ਗੋਪਾਲ)but we won’t see similar patterns with words Prabhu, Hari,  Parbraham or Parmeshar.

 To get some further clarification on this segregation of Jot and Joti,  let’s focus on word Parmatma as part of this veechar. Parmatma is  normally used to refer Waheguru Ji. It’s one of the most common words  used in our liter     ature and during katha veechar by parcharaks. It’s  quite interesting to know that there is no such word called “*Parmatma*” within Gurbani. The closest match within Gurbani for this word is as follows:

 ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥



 It’s quite clear from above reference that Gurbani terms that GURSIKH as  Parmatam who understands his own soul (Jot). The One who connects his  mind and Jot is called as Parmatam. The soul (jot) of such GURSIKH  itself becomes Supreme Soul(Jot). There is no concept of Akal Purakh  being referred as Parmatam(a) in Gurbani and yet this is so heavily used  word in our various mediums of parchar. Sikhism is unique in its  ideology and philosophy. GIAN and implementation of gurbani can  transform a Gursikh into Parmaatam. The state that was attached only  with hypothetical characters in other religions became a reality for  Gursikh but in distinctive manner. Once again, instead of doing research  of Gurbani, we loved to borrow the concepts of other cultures and loved  to propagate their words rather than what Gurbani guides.  Sadly, we  didn’t try to understand this uniqueness and got caught into the trap  from where we were taken out by GURUS. *We try to see the meaning of Gurbani from the lens of other religions.*

*Summary*

 There is a difference between Mind, Soul and Waheguru Jee. We need to be  cautious of these differences while doing the Gurbani Veechar. There  are different words used to symbolise Soul and Waheguru Jee, which  should be taken care of while trying to understand Gurbani.

 GURU Rakha,
Harpreet Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 28, 2011)

ISHNA Ji,
The reference meaning of the words GuRu Nanaku is  GuR JoTi being named as Nanaku.
I think now you can make out the understanding of the last line now.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 28, 2011)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
Just wonderful explanation.,Appreciated and many thanks for such an excellent message.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 28, 2011)

Ishna said:


> As Harry ji found some shabads which seemed to be written just for him, I think I found one of mine (at this point in time).  And it references the closeness of Sri Waheguru Ji.  Ambarsaria ji, I'm not expecting you to write a meaning for every shabad I post here, and I hope you don't mind me adding shabads about closeness to your thread. (let me know if I'm going off topic and I'll stop!)
> 
> ਸੋਰਠਿ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ ਕੋਟਿ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ  ਕੋ  ਠਾਕੁਰੁ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਸਰਬ  ਜੀਆ  ਕਾ  ਦਾਤਾ  ਰੇ  ॥ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੈ  ਨਿਤ  ਸਾਰਿ  ਸਮਾਲੈ  ਇਕੁ  ਗੁਨੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਮੂਰਖਿ  ਜਾਤਾ  ਰੇ  ॥੧॥
> सोरठि महला ५ ॥ कोटि ब्रहमंड को ठाकुरु सुआमी सरब जीआ का दाता रे ॥ प्रतिपालै नित सारि समालै इकु गुनु नही मूरखि जाता रे ॥१॥
> ...



Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jul 29, 2011)

Gyani ji

Awesome post regarding JoT / JoTi.  Thank you for bringing it to us!

Ishna


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 29, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> Awesome post regarding JoT / JoTi.  Thank you for bringing it to us!
> 
> Ishna


Ishna ji not so fast!  

How would you recognize "Gurjot" if you are not one!



> *“It Takes One to Know One..”*
> 
> Have you ever heard the saying, “It takes one to know one?” I'm sure  you have before. You were probably among a group of people and some  {censored} was talking about last night's public address to the Nation. This  guy was emphasizing on the opinion of how Obama is going to just raise  taxes and create an even further pit fall for this Nation.
> This person goes on and talks about Obama's unmoral ethics, his  inability to lead a country, and his indecisiviness that will hurt our  nation when it matters the most. “What about his plan for alternative  fuels and new energy? What about his plan for Universal Health Care? How  about his idea for creating new jobs?” You ask yourself. “He seems like  a good leader to me.”
> ...


I can see Guru ji doing it, but I see none other, do you! 

Sat Sri Akal


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## Ishna (Jul 30, 2011)

Hmm, not sure I really get that article.. I get what it's trying to say and I could tell it was from a wealth-building site before I got to the link at the bottom (my parents are constantly on the lookout for get-rich-quite schemes and it annoys the crap out of me).  I just don't think it's that simple.

I enjoyed the JoT/JoTi article because it's given me another way to look at Gurbani, and I really like the idea that my JoT is a droplet of water and the JoTi is the ocean and a droplet's natural way is downwards (humility) and my mind is between my JoT and Maya.  I might need to read the article a few more times, but that's what I got out of it.

I'm a bit lost with the recognition thing.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 30, 2011)

Water is one of the most commonly used metaphors in Gurbani..water takes many forms yet always returns to original..it always finds its own level..it always flows downwards..humility...and is always level...and will keep flowing until it meets the ocean !!..even if it is rasied as high as the clouds..it will fall...and go towards the ocean...so many other attributes of water are found to be useful as teachers for us.....


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 30, 2011)

Gyani ji,
To the gyani everything is a teacher. Haha That's why he is known as a gyani, he knows!

Other Gyanis (Gurus) have said air is the teacher. They said pavan guru (pani pita mata dhart mahat..)

It is the root of most meditation practices. Just look at the Sikh meditation practice of Simran. Through air the the sound is produced, and that air vibration AKA sound is to be focused upon. Through simran one comes to know.

Is this not the same air that passes through trees and makes beautiful sounds? That same air passes through us, and makes beautiful sounds. If it were not for the water, the trees and humans would not be there to allow air to pass through them.

Here water assumes the role of a father.

The water is also a student as it allows everyone to dump everything in it. It is the ultimate student. It takes it all in, and lets it sink to its depths. 

What our teachers always wanted us to be, in school. icecreammunda

Gurus are perhaps the ultimate example of water. They are both teachers and students (and fathers). They listen to the problems of the world, allow everyone to dump it all on them, and through all of that give wisdom, while remaining completely humble. They remain in _flow_ 24/7; do not get obstructed by any problem.

Waho waho gobind singh ape gur chela

No wonder you said water is Guru. It is!

PS 
Flow has an even deeper meaning in psychology. It is a state of full concentration. Without worry or anxiety. It is a state where the individual performs their best, fully devoted to the task. 

Athletes know it as "the zone".


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## Harry Haller (Jul 30, 2011)

Gurfateh



I used to think of god a lot before I embraced sikhism once again, I would spend hours daydreaming of the answers, during one particularly long day dream, that lasted most of the night, I had a vision of a bright dot of light inside me, a pure and good light, the object of life, the voice inside me explained, was to harness this light, which was  as pure and brilliant as the ultimate light, and be that light. The voice then explained that once you were the light, your objective was to seek out others of the light, and between you, your lights would all  merge, and that would represent the eternal ultimate light. However you could not feel the ultimate shared light, til you had merged with your own. 

To see that theory mirrored somewhat in Gyanijis post is quite interesting, however, another daydream I had was that there were two rivers in my head, one pure, sweet smelling, clear, the other dank, dirty, bad smelling, like a sea of waste. Being in any situation, or thinking any thought, I could choose which one I swam in. But why would anyone want to swim in waste? easy, sometimes the image of ourselves is so, that there is actually a very real pleasure from swimming in waste. During these periods I see everything from a 'waste' angle, the people round me, even my wife, I will ignore the 95% good that she is, and concentrate on the 5% not so good, my parents, my stepson,  the same, now, I am not so stupid that I do not know what I am doing, I know full well what I am doing, so, I get very quiet and say very little, it feels like my brain is thinking harry thoughts, but with an edge of blackness to them, 

Between the pure and the base lies a million different positions that we can take on any issue, the question, who am i, depends on what position you are in on any given day, we can be who we want to be, we can even be who we are, given enough time, I could be a devout Hindu, a muslim, a rapist, a murderer, we are all here on this forum because we are trying to find ourselves, to rise above the dual nature, 

I would say until you have merged with your own light, and have no interest swimming in the toxic rivers, you cannot merge with the big light, no matter how much you love the creator


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 30, 2011)

HARRY HALLER Ji,
I would like to share my views in reference to some part of last line of your message which is "until you have merged with your own light..........you can not merge with the big light.
The message .until you have merged with your own light ..needs a bit deliberation.
Do you think you and your light are different?If so then I would differ to say You as You are a physical Body which is a false whereas the light within you is pure and true.
So false and True can not be merged.
The point is You as You are a pure and true light only.This light is your real form .And this light will merge in the biggest light thru Naamu of GuR JoTi .This is a clear message of Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 30, 2011)

Prakashji, 

In my life, I have come across many people who have labelled me one thing or another, schizophrenic, Bi Polar, for a time, I entertained the thought that I was actually a wolf trapped in a mans body, my biggest problem is that I seem unable to merge all these 'personalities' into one. This has been the cause of problems, as I am more comfortable in one of the manifestations I call 'me', harry the clown, harry the wolf, harry the man, but lately in my nightly thoughts, and as an insomniac , these thoughts can go for hours, sometimes all night, someone else seems to be there, harry the khalsa. My thoughts take me to a room, where everyone is sitting, and discussing the situation calmly, Khalsa is telling everyone that they can all be complete and whole within the khalsa, and that the khalsa is the only way they can all be united and not fractured. The arguments can go on for hours. The biggest argument is always just who is in charge

 harry the khalsa, he represents everything perfect in me, he has all the positive traits that all the personalities have, but none of the negative, so who exactly is harry, some think he is a fool, no, actually everyone thinks he is a fool, but a lovable one, most see eccentricity, none, other than my wife, realise that all I want is for the image of the khalsa harry, that lies in my head, in tatters and incomplete, to be a reality. Only then will I be me, and only then can I even begin to start the path to Guru. 

chuckle, it has been my dream to die whole one day, the thought I could go further and actually merge with the 'big light' never occurred to me, for me this search has to be done to save my life, but then I suppose it is like that for all of us, Im not sure whether to envy or pity those that cannot see the importance of this journey, it is the only thing we HAVE to achieve above anything else that we do on this earth

If harry khalsa can lead me and at the same time preserve me, and then ultimately find the light, at that point false and true will have merged, and I will be saved


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## Ishna (Jul 31, 2011)

Awe Harry ji, no one thinks you're a fool!  :motherlylove:  You have a unique perspective and that gives you insights most other people are oblivious to.

On the topic of water, I love the water theme, that's why my avatar is a fish (in case you can't make that out from the tinsie-tiny image)... I often try to relate hukam to the current and struggling against it is being manmukh... when I was a Pagan one of my all-time favourite chants was:

We all come from the Goddess
And to Her we shall return
Like a drop of rain
Falling to the ocean

And it just so happened that on Tuesday when my husband and I were celebrating our wedding anniversary, we visited the beach where Starbucks used to be where he proposed to me (and we also got married there... at a church by that beach, not at Starbucks!)... as we arrived in the afternoon, a really strange fog was rolling in off the ocean (at 4.30pm on a beautiful day, it was very strange).  So I got all excited and dragged my hubby down to the jetty-- you could barely see the end of the jetty through the fog, so we went right down to the end.  Along they way I was talking happy snaps on my cell phone camera.  I'm not much of a photographer so I don't try hard, I just take happy snaps... and I managed to take a cracker of a picture, which I've turned into the attached wallpaper and would like to share with you all.

The picture hasn't had any effects or any doctoring - I just put the text in.

I hope you like it.  peacesignkaur
Gurfateh
Ishna


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2011)

Ishnabhenji, 

A fool is someone who knows nothing, Id rather be a fool than wise, you have too much to live up to if your wise!

Beautiful picture bhenji, you can almost smell the sea, and I bet it smells better than it does here!


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 31, 2011)

Ishna ji that is one beautiful picture.  You have the eye needed to see for sure, as it is meant to be.  Mind will continue to develop understanding.  In a way if we make our senses to get in tune, we get ahead naturally in our understanding.

Happy anniversary with many many more to come with health, happiness and wealth.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLER Ji,
> I would like to share my views in reference to some part of last line of your message which is "until you have merged with your own light..........you can not merge with the big light.
> The message .until you have merged with your own light ..needs a bit deliberation.
> Do you think you and your light are different?If so then I would differ to say You as You are a physical Body which is a false whereas the light within you is pure and true.
> ...



0 until your physical form has accepted the authority of the light within, then it is impossible to merge with the big light 

thank you Prakashji


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 1, 2011)

HARRY HALLER Ji,
I fully agree with your views  but at the same  time you will  appreciate that it is the knowledge of Naamu from  Gurbani that shall   enable your phyisical form to accept the authority of the light within..This is the real effect of Gurbani and for this effect to take place GuRu is advising us the Simran of Gurmati Raam Naamu /Hari Naamu only.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2011)

Prakashji, 

May I humbly ask , as your answer is directed at me, to explain exactly what you mean, as outlined below, so I may understand fully 

Naam from gurbani, what exactly does this mean?

also 

Simran of Gurmati Raam Naamu /Hari Naamu only.

I take this meaning meditating on the name of the Guru, if so, you are saying the way to the light is meditating on gods name. I think some people can meditate, I personally find it hard not to think 'things' to mentally discuss philosophies and reasoning within myself, whereas Bhagatsinghji is the meditating master! 

Bhagatsinghji would say, meditate more, think less!

Have I got this right?




HARRY HALLER Ji,
I fully agree with your views but at the same time you will appreciate that it is the knowledge of Naamu from Gurbani that shall enable your phyisical form to accept the authority of the light within..This is the real effect of Gurbani and for this effect to take place GuRu is advising us the Simran of Gurmati Raam Naamu /Hari Naamu only.



Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2011)

I think simran has more than one application.  Sitting quietly in naam japna is one application.  Another is making a conscious(then subconscious) effort to remember the True Being at all times.  Another is contemplating Gurbani.  Another is seva done with Waheguru in mind.

There is a saying, can't remember where I read it, where Guru Nanak makes an analogy that just as the child flies the kite while talking to his friends and in the back of his mind he's always aware of the kite-string in his hand, so we should live our lives with the kite-string of Naam in the back of our minds, as we go about our daily business.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I think simran has more than one application.  Sitting quietly in naam japna is one application.  Another is making a conscious(then subconscious) effort to remember the True Being at all times.  Another is contemplating Gurbani.  Another is seva done with Waheguru in mind.
> 
> _Ishna ji very well said indeed.  Same is true for Naam Jap.  People take it as single dimensional chanting or meditating on such.  This is so far from the truth that such needs to be taken care of as soon as possible.  It ranges anywhere from don't go forward till you understand where you are at, don't call my name try to understand, understanding is above all and our Guru ji wrote it for understanding not just for reciting.  The sweetness of reciting after understanding has its own taste that can not be replicated by just recitation.
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2011)

> Ishna ji very well said indeed. Same is true for Naam Jap. People take it as single dimensional chanting or meditating on such. This is so far from the truth that such needs to be taken care of as soon as possible. It ranges anywhere from don't go forward till you understand where you are at, don't call my name try to understand, understanding is above all and our Guru ji wrote it for understanding not just for reciting. The sweetness of reciting after understanding has its own taste that can not be replicated by just recitation.
> 
> Some very honest and direct people post their age here at spn. I sometimes feel for them but don't want to offend by being direct.
> 
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 1, 2011)

From Gurbani we can verify that Simran is an exclusive activity related to the state of Mind/Man always remaining in unison with  Naamu of Prabh.We can give a thought to a quote as
"Naamaa Kahae Tilochanaa Mukh Te Raamu Samhali
Haath Paau Kari KaamuSabhu CheetuNiranjan Naali    pp1376 Sggs

Thus it should be clear from the above message that Simran is an independent of all ones physical activities.

Ishana Ji the Sabad with an example of kite is at pp 972 in SGGS. The whole Sabad is giving the message about the state of Simran  with different physical activities.

This sabad is Bani Naamdeu Jeeo kee Raam kalee Ghur 1.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2011)

Ishna said:


> > Ishna ji very well said indeed. Same is true for Naam Jap. People take it as single dimensional chanting or meditating on such. This is so far from the truth that such needs to be taken care of as soon as possible. It ranges anywhere from don't go forward till you understand where you are at, don't call my name try to understand, understanding is above all and our Guru ji wrote it for understanding not just for reciting. The sweetness of reciting after understanding has its own taste that can not be replicated by just recitation.
> >
> > Some very honest and direct people post their age here at spn. I sometimes feel for them but don't want to offend by being direct.
> >
> > ...


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLER Ji,
> I fully agree with your views  but at the same  time you will  appreciate that it is the knowledge of Naamu from  Gurbani that shall   enable your phyisical form to accept the authority of the light within..This is the real effect of Gurbani and for this effect to take place GuRu is advising us the Simran of Gurmati Raam Naamu /Hari Naamu only.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.Bagga ji in all seriousness (peacesign japposatnamwaheguru:  ), I ask the following,



Who came first:  Raamu, Naamu, Shammu or Gyani Jarnail Singh ji!
Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 1, 2011)

Who came first ,anyone should be able to know from Gurbani .Regarding this GuRu ji is telling as

1.....Aapine Aap salio Aapine Racheio Naau.......Asaa Di Vaar

2...Naame hee Te Subh Kich Hoaa Binu SatiGuRu Naamu Na JaaPe...pp753

GuRu ji is giving us very clear messages that Every thing is created from Naamu and there is nothing without Naamu which is refered as Adi Sachu,Jugaadi Sachu Hae Bhi Sachu Nanak Hossi Bhi Sachu.....
For any one to decide who came first.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Who came first ,anyone should be able to know from Gurbani .Regarding this GuRu ji is telling as
> 
> 1.....Aapine Aap salio Aapine Racheio Naau.......Asaa Di Vaar
> 
> ...


Prakash.s.bagga ji would the following be correct,



> Nammu = Creator



If the above is not correct please tell us what word for Nammu.  Or if the answer that there is no word in English for "Nammu" then we need to create one as it is a dis-service to lot of English readers of the forums at spn.  We need to help each other not through a reference to every question as a tuk reference.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2011)

I don't mean to butt in, but I don't think there is a translation for Naam(u) in any language really... my understanding is that it's a word for something which is beyond description... the Divine Identity, the Truth, the True Reality, etc.  I could be way off but thought I'd put it out there.

Ambarsaria said: 





> I want to ask you a personal question and you don't need to answer it or even acknowledge it. Is it in your family (like parenst, uncles and aunts, siblings, etc.) to have the great wisdom gene?


 
Hmm, I don't think so.  I think I have regular parents.  Regular parents and a very disfunctional family!!  I'm a bit of the odd-one-out, most of my family are atheists or "spiritual" and think I'm a bit strange.  Apparently one of my great uncles was a Methodist priest/pastor/thingy though, so I figure that's where my "God obsession" comes from.  :grinningkaur:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 2, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I understand you are fully conversant with the gammatical indications of Gurbani words in Gurmukhi Script.
You can verify yourself that we do not give any significance to the matras Aukad and Sihari.in version english.
You will appreciate the fact that these two matras are vital for the understanding of the true meanings of Gurbani words

I english version how thiese matras can be indicated with the words so that the reader can know about the direction of the meaning according to relevent matra.

Just for emphasising the existence of matra Aukad in the word Naam  putting small u with the letter M can serve as the indication of relevent matra. Similarly small i can serve the indication for the matra of Sihari.
It is important to know why these two matras seem to have been ommitted in english version.We should find some way for indication of these matras if we are really serious in ubderstanding the true meanings of Gurbani messages.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 2, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks.  Then perhaps we should stop using it in English descriptions and provide complete Shabad context.  Otherwise it is just of no use in an English post beyond the handful here who post and can make it out in Punjabi as well.

Please think of the audience as it is beyond you and me and these posts become cryptic and useless to many perhaps useful to few.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 2, 2011)

> we should stick to Gurmukhi version only



Prakash.s.Bagga ji this is an English forum.  That is why we keep requesting please post complete Shabads and elements from Srigranth.org.  If you don't agree with any parts there you can then flag it too for all of us.  Perhaps it will lead to better English translations along the way for benefit of many.  This will be a great service as you have absolutely great knowledge of Gurbani but not everyone does.

Imagine if Guru ji gave you a Tuk and not the whole Shabad how lost you and all of us would be?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 2, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji ,my persnoal request pl dont manupulate the words.
> I alwayswrite Naamu not as you are mentioning.If I would have written anywhere Nammu then you may be right in your thinking.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 2, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I don't mean to butt in, but I don't think there is a translation for Naam(u) in any language really... my understanding is that it's a word for something which is beyond description... the Divine Identity, the Truth, the True Reality, etc.  I could be way off but thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> Ambarsaria said:
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 2, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I consider myself only a small servant of BaaBaa Nanaku.Nothing more than this.
Since I have been with the Sangat of SGGS for the past nearly 30 years.I am only trying to share my observations which have helped in changing my understanding of Gurbani messages.
If my sharing of views gives any benifit to anyone in any way it will be the grace of SatiGuRu only.My own claim is always zero.
My only request to you is that you are fully capable of understanding what is right or what is wrong.therefore you can see how in englsh the originalty of Gurbani words can be maintained and come out with the best standard format for tranlitration.
I find that SGGS in Devnagri lipi ,the words are as same as in Gurmukhi .As a matter of fact why should there be need to present script both in English and Gurmukhi,Somewhere we do realise that ultimately Gurmukhi script is required with english script to know the correct word of Gurbani .
Doing so may appear difficult but it not impossible I feel So.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Aug 2, 2011)

Prakashji

If I may be so bold, I did outline a question on a post that I did not understand, I still do not understand, not the the concept of simran, but simran in the way you have described, as I felt your words confusing. 

You are the also the first person I have ever come across to use the spelling baabaa as in baabaa black sheep, I have scoured google, and you seem the only person in the entire world to use this spelling. 

I sense much wisdom in you, much enlightenment, I do not understand how someone as enlightened and wise as your good self is unable to grasp the damage you do to your ability to communicate this wisdom by stretching the grammar issue as far as you do. Is it because the light is in the grammar? are you slowly going to add more 'a's and 'u's to every sentence til we are all speaking goblidigook, or even gooobligooku, 

Please do not throw away the chance to help us all see what you can see by inviting confusion, it dilutes you and the message you are trying to convey


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## Harry Haller (Aug 2, 2011)

Prakashji, 

I have a huge interest in this discussion, and a huge interest in what you are trying to tell us, if I could ask that you try and keep to given words, unless there is a reason for changing of grammar, that would simplify things for me, otherwise I will end up looking for meanings every time you choose to deviate from what we understand as normal, 

thank you


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2011)

I am going to apologize to everyone here discussing phonetics. But it is an issue that has continually derailed conversations, and explanations when requested have never been given by the poster. If your comment in reply to Prakash S. Bagga was deleted, I am sorry. However, the consequences of continuing on this path have been on alert on many threads here.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 2, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji,
It would be better if you start a separate thread as Significance of Grammer in Gurbani understanding" so that only persons interested can interact  on the subject.
This way we can avoid such unpleasant situations where messages are required to be deleted.
This is my suggestion only.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2011)

prakash s. bagga ji

You may start that thread at any time. :noticekudi:


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