# Sikhism And Tattoos



## Neutral Singh (Feb 19, 2005)

Some of us do have ik ong kar or the khanda tattooed on our hands... What do you think about this?


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## Singhstah (Feb 19, 2005)

i think its porbably rong because its altering the body that god had given u and also i think getting a tatoo done removes some of ur hair so that wud be a kurahit and also if u got ik oankaar on ur hand wat about wen ur eating, going to the toilet and touching something that might be dirty it wud be disrespect.


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## hira (May 6, 2005)

Singhsta, that is the lamest reply ever. If you want to get a tattoo, what is the big deal ? Will Babaji come down and strike you down ? An expression of love like a Khanda tattoo does not a disbeliever make. When you said "if you go to the toilet" ... what about when one wears a Khadda , is there a difference ? Get a grip on reality and concentrate on making our Religion better not more hard to follow.


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## CaramelChocolate (May 6, 2005)

Singhstah said:
			
		

> i think its porbably rong because its altering the body that god had given u and also i think getting a tatoo done removes some of ur hair so that wud be a kurahit and also if u got ik oankaar on ur hand wat about wen ur eating, going to the toilet and touching something that might be dirty it wud be disrespect.


 
This reply is not lame. I think it would be insulting to Sikhism to get a tattoo of any form, this is because Sikhism teaches acceptance of God's will which is why Sikhs are not supposed to remove hait from any part of the body because hair grows, that is the way it is meant to be. To permanently ink one's skin would be to edit God's original form of the person.
Sikhism is about growing inner faith for God, so wearing necklaces with the khanda or getting a tattoo is just showy which is what Guru Nanak teaches against. This is the same reason why Sikhs do not have malas and tilaks.
If you love Waheguruji and Shri Guru Granth Sahib that much then construct a Gurdwara without mention of your own name, serve God and his devotees or do seva at the Gurdwara. Pray when no-one else is around. Sikhism is more complex, deeper and stronger than staining ink on one's body.


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## Lee (May 17, 2005)

Hello All,


When it comes to tats and Sikhi, well I say that Guru Granth Sahib does not say we should not have them.  So I guess it is up to the individual.

I would say though that those of us that have tats, or get more have to accept that we do it for our own benifit, as body decoration.  In that regard then accept it as one of the 5 thieves, and strive to be a better Sikh.

Cheers,
Lee


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## Amerikaur (May 17, 2005)

In the process of getting a tattoo, one of the first steps is for the tattoo'erto shave all of the body hair off the area that is being tattooed.  Tatooing is also modifying the body, instead of keeping it intact.


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## Arvind (May 18, 2005)

Hello Lee and hira,

Sikhi teaches Sikhs to respect human body, which contains His light (Jot Saroop). Any act of modification in form of tattoo or shaving, though not written in Guru Granth Sahib, but is a part of Sikh Rehit. 

Regards, Arvind.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 16, 2005)

Look what I just found: http://prabs.nomadlife.org/hello/1857327/640/DSC00070-2005.06.13-00.31.42.jpg
And I am actually kinda disgusted as a non-sikh... apart from the fact that hair was removed to have this Gurubani on his body, many people will see this while their hair is uncovered, and what about when this man is married, he will have intercourse with Gurubani on his body!!! This raises so much issues. If someone gets a tattoo then I personally think that they are wrong and immoral altogether, but for Sikhs, if they are a hair cutter then they should at least only get ones of khanda or a lion, no Gurubani as the body can get into the most unclean situations!


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## Lionchild (Jul 16, 2005)

hira said:
			
		

> ... Will Babaji come down and strike you down ? An expression of love like a Khanda tattoo does not a disbeliever make. When you said "if you go to the toilet" ... what about when one wears a Khadda , is there a difference ? Get a grip on reality and concentrate on making our Religion better not more hard to follow.


 
Just because you can, does it mean it's right? It seems to be deeply imbedded in the human spirit: "if we can get away with it, it's ok" One reason why the planet is so f---ed up and pouuted. And we are trying to make our religion better when following what the SGGS and our guru's have said, is suddenly going against it ok?


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 16, 2005)

Well....my take on this issue is as follows:

Rules of religion and society are two different things and should be treated separately.

Let us first take religion. Each religion has its own way of referring to the ultimate power (aka God). Islamists refer to it as Allah, Hindus refer to it as Bhagwaan, we call it Waheguru. Each religion also tells us how to reach the God. 

Then comes that social aspect of a religion. The social aspects of a religion drive our appearances. For example, the Rahetnama drived the Sikhs' special appearance. In Islam, Shariat tells that all men must have beard long enough to be grabbed by hand (It is a different issue that not all Muslims follow it).

Then comes the rules of the society we live in. These rules are separate from rules of religion and religion driven social rules. For example, we all wear clothes..No religion tells us that we have to wear clothes....It is "obvious". These social rules have evolved from time to time with the mankind. Some things which were forbiddeen earlier are now acceptable in society. Some ideas are still forbidden and some ideas came and then disappeared as they could not survive the litmus test of time. 

Ear piercing was originally used by Moghul invaders to identify women slaves they took from India....And today, it is a fashion. You may even see ear rings/studs with Khanda on it, or a necklace with a Khanda on it. No one objects to them anymore. 

Recently, in France, one shoe company came with a shoe design with the pictures of Hindu Lord Rama on them. Now, that was a stupid idea and was killed almost instantly.

Another company came up with a line of underwear with Hindu Gods printed on them....Another stupid idea.

The direction in which some of today's (so called) Sikh youth are moving, I won't be surprised if we will see some girl (or boy) wearing a Khanda shaped stud on her/his belly button and then claim that God will still love her/him. Come on...God will love you whatever stupid thing you do....It's like parents....they love their kids whatever you do...you may scream, you may have arguments, you may do things against their wishes, but parents do not stop loving their kids. 

Tattoos are relatively new idea. If it passes the test of time and society, maybe in few years or decades it will be common and everyone will accept it as naturally as we have accepted ear piercing.

We should respect symbols of any religion as you respect your parents. 

Regards,


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## Hukum Kaur (Jul 20, 2005)

I do not believe getting a Khanda nor Gurbhanni tattoo is moraly ok, because these symboles are so sacred that it would be almost like stealing. I have a neclace with a khanda and I only put it on, when my energy is pure, when I am clean and when I am an open chanel to its power. I am not always these things, so a tatto of an Adi Shakti or Khanda or Gurbhanni would not befit me.
And I do not think one should shave anypart of their body, even once.
However, someplaces, the hair is so small you do not need to shave (Shoulder or low back, etc).
Sikhism has really helped me understand the power of symboles and images and above all, the Word, the ShabadGuru.
and so if one were to tattoo this ephemeral bag of flesh, it should be an image that resonates with ones soul and carries a message/reminder to the carrier.
I have a tattoo that I got a few months before finding Sikhism, I do not regret it.
I got a bamboo stalk from elbow to shoulder, and this symbolises rapid growth, the balence of streingth and flexability, and the sybole of the reed flute that is the body and the wind that is the music and the soul and God that passes through us...
Just like a spiritual name reminds one of their destiny, a tattoo can remind one of their priorities or dreams and inspirations. Tattoos are art, the body a most sacred canvas, meditate on the design for a few years, just dont over do it or become addicted to the needle. Intention has a LOT to do with weather or not it is an act of Maya. I the tatoo for your ego to show off, or is it for your mind to remember who you really are? I know that some Sikhs, in India espetially, will look down upon my arm or think me not True, I consider this my job to help expand the minds, and contract some minds, to walk the path of neutrality.
Sat Naam, Wahe Guru
Liv Kaur


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## asbharaj (Sep 7, 2005)

The fact of the matter is that it is not directly considered a sin to get a tattoo.  I have a question, if getting a tattoo were as bad as cutting one's hair, would it not be written as a sin?  And it is not like if you do get a tattoo, Waheguru will turn his back to you.  I know of people who get their hair cut but still commit their time to the lord.  So these are my "two cents", if you want to get a tattoo, by all means go and get one.  But not if you are Amrit-shak.


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## sunnyharry (Sep 7, 2005)

i was wondering if tatooing is such a big deal how about the decoration stuff in the cars is that considered as wrong or what???  Cauz we were actually thinking of placing vilyn stickers onto our car with encription of god sybols


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## ramnik (Sep 7, 2005)

waheguruji da khalsa waheguruji di fateh!

well lets start by saying that

- piercing and tattoos were made on animals, cattle etc to differetiate between them and their ownership. do you want to be an animal?

- i am sure i read something in sri guru granth sahib on making marks on your body.

- the koran and bible also forbid their followers to do piercings and make tattoos

-from the holy bible leviticus 19 :28
according to the bible, these are the words of waheguru which he said to Moses "ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead nor print any marks upon you: i am the Lord"

leviticus 19:27 is even more interesting
ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. 

IT IS VERY CLEAR THATIN CHRISTIANITY EVEN TRIMMING OF THE BEARD IS FORBIDDEN!
man is such a selfish and egoistic being, he even tries to twist, edit and ignore words of god if they dont suite him.

I apologise if i have mentioned something wrong!


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## Lee (Sep 8, 2005)

Sat sri akaal! 

Cyber Sangat,

Tattoing is actualy very, very old and not a recent think at all.  It is known that tattoinh the skin is at least 5000 years old, and probably much older than that.

In relation to tattos in general, if Guru Granth Sahib does not restrict against it then I guess it is fine.  However tattoing is a form of body decoration, like jewlry, wearing fashinable cloths, makeup,  etc..  If we do this to make ourselves look or feel better that as I have said before, can it be said that we are giving into ego?

As far as tattoos of Gurbani go, heh well God is everywhere, I think the thing to bear in mind is respect for God, but we cannot be too serious over Gurbani on body, or in news papers or on posters etc..  because God is the body, and the newspapers and the posters.

Cheers,

lee.


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## ranjodh singh khalsa (Sep 30, 2005)

waheguru ji ka khalsa 
waheguru ji ki fathe!

i simply think if guru ji wanted you to have a tattoo then we would of been given it at birth. as a sikh we cannot re-form our body in anyway whether its cutting you're hair or getting a tattoo-->its simply the same. also a tattoo could make a person increase his or her ego. if guru jus wanted us to have earing's or whatever s/he would of given it. my opinioun as a sikh is its wrong for no matter what reasons and if you love you're sikhi so much and want to show it off im sure the dastar would potray it. sikhi isn't about how much you look like a sikh its about how bad you want it and tattoo's and percings just come in the way.


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## waheguru123 (Sep 30, 2005)

what if you can get a tatoo where you dont have any hair. like the arm????


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## Lee (Oct 14, 2005)

ranjodh singh khalsa said:
			
		

> waheguru ji ka khalsa
> waheguru ji ki fathe!
> 
> i simply think if guru ji wanted you to have a tattoo then we would of been given it at birth. as a sikh we cannot re-form our body in anyway whether its cutting you're hair or getting a tattoo-->its simply the same. also a tattoo could make a person increase his or her ego. if guru jus wanted us to have earing's or whatever s/he would of given it. my opinioun as a sikh is its wrong for no matter what reasons and if you love you're sikhi so much and want to show it off im sure the dastar would potray it. sikhi isn't about how much you look like a sikh its about how bad you want it and tattoo's and percings just come in the way.



I have to say that I simply don't agree with all you say here Ranjodh Ji.  The reason and really the only reason for a Sikh not to cut the hair, is to obey the will of God.  I agree with you about the ego and indulgeing in it, I also agree that Sikhi is not how you look.  However the whole 'If we where meant to have.... we would have been born with it' line of argument just isn't true.  I was not born with hair, or clothes, I was not born with wings yet is it un-Sikh for me to get in a plane and fly?

I can respect your opinion, and in fact I do, but my opinion says when and where has God told us not to alter our bodies, or not to have tattos?
If you could point me to these places I would be very much in your debt.

Cheers,

Lee.


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## devinesanative (Oct 19, 2005)

Dear Friends

It is a belief , If everything seems Anti-Gurmat.

Then we should do the following :

OMG Those who want to be a Purest of Purest Sikh Should Visit a Desert :

Sit There with gloomy Faces, 
Stick a Tape on the Mouth so that neither good words nor bad words can be spoken.
Plug the Ears Nothing could be heard
Plug the Nostrils , so that while breathing the viruses or bacteria not enter , as it will be ..........
Tie a Black Cloth on your eyes so that nothing can be seen ........

Plug your back so that no bad thing could be eased out .

Plug all your exit parts ............

Do Nothing , Speak Nothing , Hearing Nothing , Listening ...........

Now , Nothing will be against any Religion ..............OMG


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## Jassy (Oct 19, 2005)

Amerikaur said:
			
		

> In the process of getting a tattoo, one of the first steps is for the tattoo'erto shave all of the body hair off the area that is being tattooed.


 
False. 

Unless of course, the tattoo is going in a secluded area of the body.


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## Jassy (Oct 19, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Sikhism is about growing inner faith for God, so wearing necklaces with the khanda or getting a tattoo is just showy which is what Guru Nanak teaches against. This is the same reason why Sikhs do not have malas and tilaks.


 
Sorry, gonna play the devils advocate for a mint.

Keeping your above statement in mind, so then why did the Guru Ji's adorn themselves w/jewelry?


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## Lee (Nov 25, 2005)

Jassy said:
			
		

> Sorry, gonna play the devils advocate for a mint.
> 
> Keeping your above statement in mind, so then why did the Guru Ji's adorn themselves w/jewelry?


 
Also what about jewrly in and on the turban?  How do people choose a turban colour, is just the first one I found this morning like socks, or do we colour co-ordinate?

If we do the latter why?  So that we look good, present ourselfs better?  Look majestic like Sikhs of older times? 

Again, please show me where God tells me I cannot get tattoed, where God tells us that it goes against Gods will?  Other wise I see it as no differant from wearing smart cloths, or doning a fancy turban, or wearing makeup, or jewlry


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## devinesanative (Nov 26, 2005)

Lee said:
			
		

> Also what about jewrly in and on the turban? How do people choose a turban colour, is just the first one I found this morning like socks, or do we colour co-ordinate?
> 
> If we do the latter why? So that we look good, present ourselfs better? Look majestic like Sikhs of older times?
> 
> Again, please show me where God tells me I cannot get tattoed, where God tells us that it goes against Gods will? Other wise I see it as no differant from wearing smart cloths, or doning a fancy turban, or wearing makeup, or jewlry


 

YOu are right Dear Lee that God never tells us where we cannot get tatooed or anything else.


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## devinesanative (Nov 26, 2005)

One question if it does not makes anyone furious and red like this :}--}: .


It is constantly said that we should respect what God has gifted us .

Did God Gifted us with Clothes ?


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## Balait_da_sher (Nov 29, 2005)

I am not against Tatooing however i am going to ask a question. 

To those of you who have gurbani tattoos, how do u clean ur bum :shock: I bet most ppl never think about that.


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## lionprinceuk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think tatooing a khanda is totally wrong, because you shouldn;t go against the khalsa if you want to wear a symbol of the khalsa. Ek ONkar is slightly different because it representes the oneness of God.


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## tony (Feb 22, 2006)

i dont think a tattoo is that bad its no worse that the amount of make up that many sikh ladies use.and certainly better than the amount of gold that you see hanging off a lot of british sikhs.  if the tattoo is to show others that your a sikh whats the problem with that, if its to glam yourself up then u should think about something less permanent


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 22, 2006)

Guru nanak Ji Sahib says:  Foods that are PURE ( originally)  like Grain, flour, water, ghee, milk, sugar etc etc...GET POLLUTED when the HUMAN consumes them...and then they become FILTH that everybody spits on and says PHEW !! what a STINK.

Whats the connection...with tatoos ?? chew on this a few days and it will become clear real soon...

Jarnail Singh Gyani


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## hydroponix (Mar 6, 2006)

just a quick question im getting a tattoo of a khanda with a shere (lion) inside the chakka has n e 1 got n e pictures of this or cn u tell me where i can get some cuz im trying to decide on the design
much appreciated if n e 1 can help


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## tony (Mar 26, 2006)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
			
		

> Guru nanak Ji Sahib says: Foods that are PURE ( originally) like Grain, flour, water, ghee, milk, sugar etc etc...GET POLLUTED when the HUMAN consumes them...and then they become FILTH that everybody spits on and says PHEW !! what a STINK.
> 
> Whats the connection...with tatoos ?? chew on this a few days and it will become clear real soon...
> 
> Jarnail Singh Gyani


sat sri akal
I can see what you're trying to say but if we were to follow that then why bother living, because that statement taken literally means that what ever we do we are polluting or changing what God gave us. our temples were not built by God nor were they decorated by him, so do we tear them down. Our bodies do belong to God, so does this world and that has been changed from what God created even by sikhs.so do we stop progressing the human race, do we stop taking medication as they are not made by God. you buy food and then cook it, not natural so do we stop eating. you could go on for ever like this for ever and the human race would die out very quickly. if we can biuld temples in Gods honour and deface Gods earth, then why can't we have tatoos in Gods honour. they do not poison the body just decorate it and that cant be an evil as my local Gudwara is decorated with religious paintings. And heres a little something for yourself to chew on, if you denied a man the right to do some thing that harms no one then you become an oppressor which is the worst of the two, none of our Guru jis fought to eradicate tatoos but there have been many wars to wipe out oppression. let a man do as they wish if it doesn't harm any one and God will judge them not you or I.
sorry if I've offended any one it was not my intention
p.s. the Khanda is a symbol given to all sikhs and a sikh is anyone who believes in one God, if you claim it is for the Khalsa only, then you have created an inequality, read what the Guru ji's said about that. put the Khanda on what you like, be it a flag your clothes or your body, just wear it with pride and in celibration of God


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## Pukandi Baba (Mar 26, 2006)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Look what I just found: http://prabs.nomadlife.org/hello/1857327/640/DSC00070-2005.06.13-00.31.42.jpg
> And I am actually kinda disgusted as a non-sikh... apart from the fact that hair was removed to have this Gurubani on his body, many people will see this while their hair is !


 
Of course having the Bani tattoed upon  his body shall bring him closer to 'God' i think not!!


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## Pukandi Baba (Mar 26, 2006)

devinesanative said:
			
		

> One question if it does not makes anyone furious and red like this :}--}: .
> 
> 
> It is constantly said that we should respect what God has gifted us .
> ...


 
So clothes aren't percieved to be a gift to you?


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## bopadum (Jun 8, 2006)

One of the issues here seems to be the shaving of the hair. I always got the impression that the Beard and Head hair was the main requirement not to be cut. didin't think it meant any hair all over your body.

As for modify the body - the sikh uniform (Turban, Kirpan, Kachera, Kanga) are permenant tattoos in a way.

I think if you have the guts to have a traditional tattoo (not by machine - and you can get them in this country) without the use of shaving hair, using natural methods, I forgot what the process is called, then it should be fine. If there was nothing specifically banning us from doing this, it probably was not a major concern to our gurus (as tattoos have been around since man)


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## gurpreet2006 (Jun 8, 2006)

gurfateh to all .

why one  wants the tatoos?

this has been proven in medicine nw the dye in tatoo causes so much harm to the harmony of th body in the form of cancer , allergy , other skin  and body  problems .

 gurus  were right then  and they will be right now and forever.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 9, 2006)

Gurfateh

other then uncut hairs other Ks are not permanannet.And can be detached.Hairs are anyway not unatural.


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## Lee (Jun 9, 2006)

gurpreet2006 said:
			
		

> gurfateh to all .
> 
> why one wants the tatoos?
> 
> ...


 
I don't know where this data come from, but it is not correct.  Also can  anybody please show me where Guru Ji says we are not allowed them?


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## bopadum (Jun 9, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> other then uncut hairs other Ks are not permanannet.And can be detached.Hairs are anyway not unatural.


 
Hmmm. See your point on that one.

This is a risky one (so don't shoot me down for it) but it could be said that as a tattoo is 'semi-permenant' you can never deny you are a sikh if you got Ek Onkar or a khanda.

As Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us a uniform to stand out with and not deny the fact, if someone approached him about it maybe he would have been OK with it?

Just thinking about it. Not a belief of mine. This is a philosphy board after all...


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## dalsingh (Jun 12, 2006)

I made this point on another thread, but what if you had tattoos before coming into Sikhi?


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## bopadum (Jun 13, 2006)

dalsingh said:
			
		

> I made this point on another thread, but what if you had tattoos before coming into Sikhi?


 
Well I think as there is no clear cut rule. If you feel in your heart you are against it and it is wrong, then remove it with laser treatment (hence why I called tatto's semi permenant)- which again is marking the body.


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## dalsingh (Jun 13, 2006)

_


			
				bopadum said:
			
		


			Well I think as there is no clear cut rule. If you feel in your heart you are against it and it is wrong, then remove it with laser treatment (hence why I called tatto's semi permenant)- which again is marking the body.

Click to expand...

_

I just dont think things like that really bother Waheguru. But who am I to know? For something so vast and powerful, without hate, without fear...it would seem like a petty thing to be concerned about.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 15, 2006)

i dont understand what a clean situation is because god is everywhere   God is in shit and urine and and all that
do I sound disrespectful? yes to those who do not understand
but i dont agree with the whole tatoo idea its like dieing ur hair which also shud not be done


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## Lee (Sep 18, 2006)

Arvind said:
			
		

> Hello Lee and hira,
> 
> Sikhi teaches Sikhs to respect human body, which contains His light (Jot Saroop). Any act of modification in form of tattoo or shaving, though not written in Guru Granth Sahib, but is a part of Sikh Rehit.
> 
> Regards, Arvind.


 
Arvind Ji,

I make you right, but would you then accept the same is true for nice cloths, makeup, jewrly? If your turban is bigger and brighter and more flamboyant than everybody elses then can you said to be guilty of the same egotism?

I would say yes for all of the above, and as I have said any sprucing up the apperance of your body is done for purly egotistical reasons, whatever  form that takes.


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## Dimitri (Sep 18, 2006)

Sikhism is beyond these little issues.


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## Lee (Sep 18, 2006)

Dimitri said:
			
		

> Sikhism is beyond these little issues.


 
Heh yeah I agree, i was thinking early on today, to what does a Sikh owe her allegence?  the religion, or God?


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## Dimitri (Sep 18, 2006)

A Sikh gets his/hers spiritual teachings/knowledge from Guru Granth Saheb. 
From my little understanding of Guru Granth-it is so beyond this little stuff. infact it makes mockery of these petty little things and just wants us to remember and be tune with God all the time.


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## thecoopes (Oct 14, 2006)

Amerikaur said:


> In the process of getting a tattoo, one of the first steps is for the tattoo'erto shave all of the body hair off the area that is being tattooed. Tatooing is also modifying the body, instead of keeping it intact.


 

Good afternoon dear Sikh’s, you say must not modify the body?

Do Sikh’s cut fingernails, toenails?

I am now old man and hair falls out of head:8-  but grows in abundance from nose and ears, so if I didn’t cut it I would soon resemble wolf man:crazy: ! I am sure it is the same with old Sikh (Men).

As Anglo Saxon I am into tattoo it is in our genes.


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## Archived_member8 (Nov 5, 2006)

ok no disrespect to anyone here, but if you really want to get into it, where does it say in the Guru Granth Sahib that we needed khalistan, did Guru Gobind Singh say we needed khalistan?, he said Khalsa for sure, not khalistan. Khalistan is a product of modern sikhism, there is nothing in the Guru Granth Sahib saying we need a seperate state, infact the guru's teachings point more towards staying together and treating everyone equal, not dividing up. The same applies to tattoo's a product of modern sikh interpretation. Tattoos dont hurt anyone, if the tattoo of religious text is on your body, then it MAY serve as a reminder that there is someone more powerful then you and you have to abide by his rule. Tattoos arnt the same as cutting hair, im sure you can get a tattoo done by someone who will not cut your hair, and if some hair comes off by accident then I really dont belive its your fault, because scratching your beard or head can also make hair come out, will god punish you for scratching your beard? Thats a desire isnt it? Also, lets move on to surgery, removing tumors and perhaps even limbs (MAJOR BODILY ALTERATION) would god get mad?, i personally think not. Elements in Sikhism are very important and some arguably more important then others. I.E tattoo's (non hair removal by purpose) would not be as much as an influence as donating to the poor for instance. 

Thats my opinions, just throwing it out there for you guys, again no disrespect.


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## Nim_23 (Nov 9, 2006)

Modifying is not the word, *Causing pain to your body* is the sentence.

On one hand: Personally, I do not think that having tattoos are wrong (though I don't have one or intend to have one.  I prefer temp ones as I can change them to whatever I feel like anytime).  However, in the olden day most people were uneducated and did not know much and took it as an art/perhaps it was the in thing; if you know many punjabis/muslims in India have tattooed their names or symbol on their hands/arms. However, even christians feel that our body is a gift from god and we should not cause it any pain by tattoos, piercings etc.

I have a friend who has a Khanda tattoo on his hand but regrets having put it as he feels that children/teenagers may be motivated to try tattooing when they see his hand (He works in a school after retiring from the govt sector).  

He had got the tattoo when he was very young and he is close to his 60's today.  He plans to remove it but many have adviced him not to as it will cause a scar on his hand and of course pain will also be caused; thus many have discouraged him from doing so.  

If our religion teaches us not to put tattoos but we have made a mistake by doing it as we were young and ignorant, then repent and do not make more tattoos on yourself; removing the tattoo may seem a way out but it also causes pain so it defeats the purpose of not hurting our body which is a gift from god unless of course you purpose of removing the tattoo is to avoid influence to others and not because of religious reasons.

On the other hand: “Do not modify! BUT beautifying seems fine?”  Don't men wear colored turbans, clothes etc to make themselves look good?  Don't women wear accessories, henna, make-up to look good and beautify themselves?  Ear piercing, belly piercing etc are nowadays common among *both genders*; especially ear piercing.  Does ear piercing not cause pain?

Some people may take tattooing as an interest, art, body art, as a way of beautifying their selves etc.  

What matters is what you think is right.  We can't control another person's thinking.  What may seem right to me may seem wrong to you and vice-versa.  Eventually what is important is that you are a true honest being.

I am a neutral party in this area and am not hitting on anyone of you who have wrote your comments.  I hope my message would not upset anyone.

I seek you understanding.  Thank you for your time.


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## Nim_23 (Nov 9, 2006)

I seriously agree with most of you  here that tattoos are not a big issue at all...Many a times tattoos have helped people recognise each other too.

I think there are more important things to discuss about in Sikhism than just "Sikhism and Tattoos".


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## hpluthera (Nov 14, 2006)

Tattoing is more of a cultural thing than religious during Partition of India lot of people Tattoed their Hands with Names Symols of Religion as that would make identity easy.  During wars the Tatooes helped mutilated bodies identifications easy Maori in New Zealand tatooes has meaning and history to their ancestory.  Lot of people today tattoo to inflict pain on them selves.  In Slavery times only Slaves bodies were used as cavases and Tattoed and pierced to identify their owners.

Now regarding Holy Unholy issue God is everywhere invasive nothing makes Him Holy or Unholy your mind can do more than just toilet washing with a Hand tatooed.  These seems to be useless discussions and do not lead to real conclusions.  Clean your minds SIkhi advise that "Mati Ka Kya Dhope Swami Manas Ki gat ehi"

regards
HP luthera


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## hpluthera (Nov 14, 2006)

You are right and for that reason non of the religious books states that because men of God are for Humanity.  Guru nanak wished all to worship the only Nirankar the ONE GOD for all.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji Wrote" Raj Bina Nahi Dharam Chalat Hai Dharam Bina Nahi Raj Chalat Hai Dharam Raj Doye Dalle Malle Hai"

"Means To spread religioun you need Kngdom and to Run Kingdom you need Religion and both are intertwined"

For religious freedom sometimes you need the ruler.  French Govt. of Today has curbed the religions (partly) amongst Kids going to School.

So political freedom in a good democracy had been a good solution but minority generall will have no say in executive responsible for implementing the freedom and rights for individuals as their empathy would be missing.

So what is the best the best is "Naam Prabhu Ka Laga Mitha" 

"Naam Ka Dhyan"  and then see 
"Khalsa ji Man Jitey Jag Jeet" 

The others will be defeated by default.
For excellence and success in life it is the most important to win over mind and others will follow in line.
So do not get frustrated  or fearful freedom of religion with in is more important than without.
Only confident get confidence only fearless get respect, only those in self control get control of all situations.
and for achieving all this the key is :

get connected to "Naam"

hpluthera


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## navroopsingh (Nov 15, 2006)

I cant believe these people who are merely trying to convince themselves that it is okay to have a tattoo. I know a Gursikh, who does everything and much more that a Sikh is supposed to do, yet he has an ENORMOUS tattoo of a Gatka warrior on his tricep and bicep area. It may just be his love for Gatka which seems to be at no end. 

If the Guru Granth Sahib does not mention tattoo's does that mean we can have them? IF it does not mention crack, marijuana, or any other drug, does it mean we can use them? We are supposed to think of what the basic underlying principles for a GURSIKH are. One such that I am focusing on is body alteration. We are not supposed to change the form in which Vyheguru sent us and tattoo'ing yourself is one such thing, whether it be a "religious" tattoo or not. There are no exceptions. 

Vyheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Vyheguru Ji ki fateh


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## simran1504 (Nov 15, 2006)

Good reply Baljeet singhji. 
I agree with your views


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## thecoopes (Nov 16, 2006)

Hi everybody, 

Please allow me to play the devils advocate here. 

You say....“We are not supposed to change the form in which Vyheguru sent us and tattoo'ing yourself is one such thing, whether it be a "religious" tattoo or not. There are no exceptions.”...

What about cutting Toenails? Fingernails?
What about operation to remove appendix? Cataract?


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## Lee (Nov 16, 2006)

navroopsingh said:


> I cant believe these people who are merely trying to convince themselves that it is okay to have a tattoo. I know a Gursikh, who does everything and much more that a Sikh is supposed to do, yet he has an ENORMOUS tattoo of a Gatka warrior on his tricep and bicep area. It may just be his love for Gatka which seems to be at no end.
> 
> If the Guru Granth Sahib does not mention tattoo's does that mean we can have them? IF it does not mention crack, marijuana, or any other drug, does it mean we can use them? We are supposed to think of what the basic underlying principles for a GURSIKH are. One such that I am focusing on is body alteration. We are not supposed to change the form in which Vyheguru sent us and tattoo'ing yourself is one such thing, whether it be a "religious" tattoo or not. There are no exceptions.
> 
> Vyheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Vyheguru Ji ki fateh



Navroop Singh Ji,

I am glad that you wrote that 'We are supposed to think of what the basic underlying principles for a GURSIKH are'  Guru has indeed told us to think, to use our brains and not to go a long with dogma for the sake of it, but to understand why we do or don't do certian things.  I guess in part to help us reconise the differance between a meaningless ritual, and showing love for Waheguru.  

However you also say 'We are not supposed to change the form in which Vyheguru sent us...'  This is a nonsense argument.  We change our form every time we put on cloths, should we then stop this?  Or trim out nails should we not do this either?  Or perhaps even more telling, when we put on our best, bigest, brightest coloured turban.  We do all of these things for egotistical reasons, I personaly would be more worried about what we do when immersed in ego than however we change our apperance.


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## navroopsingh (Nov 16, 2006)

Lee,

My father once told me that cutting nails is much more different that cutting our hair because nails break and cut anyways while we do our work and especially for the farmers in india. Wearing a turban is a thing that was given to us by Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a means to distinguish us from others and make us recognizable in a crowd so that everyone will know that if they see a Khalsa Sikh and they are in need of help, they can go to him.

I hate ego. It is plaguing me and stopping me from getting the full potential of naam simran. Putting on certain types of clothes is not changing the form of your body but rather keeping you warm and covering your body, which only your spouse is allowed to see.


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## Lee (Nov 17, 2006)

navroopsingh said:


> Lee,
> 
> My father once told me that cutting nails is much more different that cutting our hair because nails break and cut anyways while we do our work and especially for the farmers in india. Wearing a turban is a thing that was given to us by Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a means to distinguish us from others and make us recognizable in a crowd so that everyone will know that if they see a Khalsa Sikh and they are in need of help, they can go to him.
> 
> I hate ego. It is plaguing me and stopping me from getting the full potential of naam simran. Putting on certain types of clothes is not changing the form of your body but rather keeping you warm and covering your body, which only your spouse is allowed to see.



Navroop Singh ji,

Thank you for your reply, I am a little confused though, does not the hair on the head also break naturaly and on it's own.  Then by this logic we are allowed to cut our hair?

No I think we do not need to invent reasons why we should keep the 5 K's other than Guru has told us so.  

When I talk of the cloths changing your body, I mean of course I do not distinguish between the reasons wewear nice cloths, or makeup, or jewlry, or indeed tattos.

In and of themselves none of this is anti or against Sikhi, what I would instead be aware of, are the reasons we wish to change our apperance, or wear nice looking cloths, or get out hair done up nicely, or wear makeup that brings out our eyes, get tattoed.  Theses reasons are all based in ego, and as long as we realise this and try to be better Sikhs, I for one cannot condeme a Sikh for having tatttos, nor do I think is expressly anti Sikh.

The bottom line is, Guru has not told us not to have them, and the tattoing of humans has a history that spreads back thousands of years.


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## navroopsingh (Nov 17, 2006)

As for the history of tattooing I am truly not too knowledgable upon but I will humbly agree to your opinion because it honestly does seem to make sense. Ego is the underlying evil of all. But i must say alteration of the body in this way of tattooing seems to be antiSikh to me because it seems to be to me. I guess it is a topic not to focused upon and one that should not be discussed to great lengths because I think we have enough internal problems as it is.


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## Lee (Nov 20, 2006)

navroopsingh said:


> As for the history of tattooing I am truly not too knowledgable upon but I will humbly agree to your opinion because it honestly does seem to make sense. Ego is the underlying evil of all. But i must say alteration of the body in this way of tattooing seems to be antiSikh to me because it seems to be to me. I guess it is a topic not to focused upon and one that should not be discussed to great lengths because I think we have enough internal problems as it is.




Navroop Singh Ji,


Heh then I guess we can agree to disagree.  I think a lot on the human condition and on ego, and perhaps you are right, in the long run talking about these differances serves no purpose.  Perhaps though it is imperative that we do so, perhaps just in order to understand each other.  One condition of the ego I am sure on, is that we all think we are right, now surly we can't all be, so some of us must be wrong.  The propblems this causes though in any sort of religious community I think are well known.

Ego is indeed the advesary.


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## chk1 (Nov 28, 2006)

just a quick thought, when we die it's our soul that lives on, that makes the transition from death from the afterlife....if our soul is pure and clean what does it matter whether we cut hair, have tattoos etc? After all we are not taking our body with us, it was given to us by God, and it is the house of the soul, the soul lives in the body and moves away from the body. 
Shouldn't we concentrate upon our souls? Connecting mind, body and spirit? Why do we make trivial things so big, when one way or another we are all going to "die" and leave the body behind.

True, we should look after the body, not harm it, intoxicate it but as for external things like piercings and tattoos, frankly i don't think God really cares...that is if you believe in a unconditional loving God, who does not judge or condemn his children...if you believe in a angry, wrathful God then its a different matter...we wouldn't want to anger God now would we?:wink:


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## kaur?princess? (Nov 28, 2006)

I personally also feel that God really doesn't care if we get piercings or tattoos.. I mean it's a means of expression and if you want to express your faith.. there doesn't really seem to be anything wrong with that.. All people are trying to do is respect.. some think it is disrespectful.. whereas others might feel they are respecting their faith more by wearing it proudly like a tattoo or even a pendant in a necklace.  I don't feel there is anything wrong with getting ik ong kaar  tattooed on to ones hand.. but a while back i had seen a girl at a party with it tattooed on her back like some girls get a flower, butterfly, or etc.. and I FEEL that is very disrespectful and wrong.


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## shere punjab (Dec 4, 2006)

i have a tatoo of a khanda and a lion mixed together, with shere punjab written around it, whats the problem?? there is not a problem,  its the same that sikh's shouldnt eat beef, half of you go to mcdonalds and have a cheese burger, at the end of the day, who defines who is a proper sikh? i where a khanda around my neck, i were a khara, i cut my hair, i shave...so fitting into modern times is wrong??


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## Borneo Sikha (Jul 29, 2007)

*Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Are we as sikhs allowed to have any tattoos and piercings? 
this has been a big issue with me. I love tattoos and i draw a lot of tattoo designs which i hope i can transfer to my body but the biggest question that has been holding me back has been weather i as a sikh am allowed to have any.
Some times i feel we can, because quite a few sikhs have them, either a khenda or the words "waheguru" in punjabi. if others can have them why not the rest. 
on the other hand if we as sikhs are not allowed to cut our hair i dont think we are allowed to have a permanent mark on our body.

Are we allowed or not?

if anyone has an answer do let me know.


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Borneo ji

Read this and you will get your answer.

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

Cheers


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## BaljeetSingh (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

In my humble opinion, editing our God gifted body in any sense is prohibited. Who are we to edit God's creation (our body)?

Editing our body includes following:
1. Cutting hair
2. Shaving body hair (eye brows, legs, etc)
3. Coloring hair
4. Tattooing
5. Piercing (ear, nose, belly buttons, tongue, etc.)
6.....Who knows what else our future will bring.
7. Abortion ??


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## gurprit_gujral (Sep 3, 2007)

So much hullabaloo is being raised on a topic which, when seen in the correct perspective, becomes irrelevant. A simple question. Does anyone of you know of the origin of the Khanda? How do we dare to relate it to Sikh religion when we donot know if the Khanda symbol even existed at the time of the Gurus? As such, it must have no religious significance. The Khanda in its present form has not been evidenced, as yet, even till the end of the Sikh sovereign state in 1849AD. It would be appropriate to have evidence about the exact evolution of the Khanda before continuing this discussion.


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## hpluthera (Sep 4, 2007)

dear participants 
I read with great interest all the postings in this topic and really feel disappointed that all replies are either directed with hatered or imposing and with utter disregard to the Guru Nanak's Banis but purely as Manmatt.  This man matt the self professed philosophies astrayed from Gurvani or the original scriptutres many old religions Hindus and Cristians  and islam were rejected by Guru Nanak Dev Ji when he said Na Koi Hindu Na Koi Musalman.

We are creating new kind of Maulvis Sangat at large propagating their "Man matt"  self assumed reasoning or inferences on various subjects.

According to Sri Guru nanak Dev Ji  there is neither a paap nor a pun it is your perspective.  There is no Sooch no Jhooth - and he practically through Shabad and practice gave it to pundits and maulvis of time.

All of you to find the meaning to your questions please Read SukhMani with meanings and all answers will dawn upon you.  
Understand Bani says "Sach tan Kar Janitye jey Hirdey Sacha Hoye"" If your heart has truth and respect and obedience nothing matters.

Symbals are of no value without Naam.  Evry thing which lives and we see is ultimately destroyed only Naam is left and Shabad Guru is the Guru of Sikh and he exist by Breath the air the Khand and Bhramand.  If air is polluted will naam be polluted or if you are in a place near Gutter the mell impure your Naam in Hiriday.

Pundits created similar preachings to scare people about superstitious believes and Maulvis created new Islamic beliefs of hatered.

Guru freed us all from that "Janjaal" and you all are trying your utmost by dragging in the same "Daldal".

I will appeal to organisers of this forum if this is Skh Phislosophy forum please solve and submit some sense derived directly from the Gurbani.  I will also request the participants to please seek answers from Guru Vichar with "Nirmal Hirdey""   Everyone has different perspective and Gurbani is not for people of similar intellect but of all intellect and Guru has given the liberty to interpret and understand as per your understanding and intellect as long as you heart is pure and you accept that with humility.
Guru asi sariyan nu sumutt bakhshey and free us from the symbolism which has different level of respect by every one.  

Thanks
HP Luthera


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## hpluthera (Sep 4, 2007)

Dear Friend:
Please do not be so proud what you do as no one is right and no one is wrong; it is your own belief what makes it so. Others judge you as per their own perspective and convenience and we see them in similar way.   According to Gurbani "Hum Nahin Change Bura Nahi Koye"  So if we are able to rcoganise that we are not perfect ourself therefore no one is bad.  That attitude fixes most of the problem.

Nine Gurus carried attire which is "SantSarup" saintly look of the time. Our Thenth Guru made the Saint a Saint Soldier. "Sant Sapahi" The Khalsa the ultimate complete Human who lives and die for humanity. Fearless But Nirmal. Prepared to fight the "Zulam and Zaalam". Fiercefull ferocious but emersed with Naam. Dev and Danav.

So Sikhs who followed the Guru and His Teachings with full submission felt proud to emerse and adopt to His Roop Guru "Swaroop". That State was "Ander Wase te Bahar Vee Ohi."

Those who look Guruswaroop (Saint) they are Guru Ke Sikh and those who take Amritpaan and emerse with Guru Gobind Singh ji's Daat become His appointed Khalsa and emerse in His SwaRoop of Sant Sapahi.

Others are just Sikhs or in the making and breaking.  And if you really get involved into 11th Guru Guru Granth Sahib what willlbe your swaroop the Giyan Dhyan and clear of all confusions.  No question shall stay unanswered.  

Whatever group you think you are in please do one thing keep holding to the "Naam" tthe Shabad Guru and do Gurbani Vichar may be just read one stanza a day and ponder over its meaning as per your intellect do not get confused with interpretations of manmatt.  
I am 100% sure and positive that Naam is the ultimate Gift to any Sikh or Khalsa.  bani bina Bana Kis Kam Da.  Rahit Bina Amrit da Koi Labh Nahi.  Guru Bina Koi Sikh Nahi.  Gurbani bina Koi Naam Nahi.
Without Naam every thing is useless the Kesh,  Bana, Baatan discussions.
Naam Japo that will keep you close to Guru.
Thanks
HP Luthera


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## hpluthera (Sep 4, 2007)

Dear Friend:
Please do not be so proud what you do as no one is right and no one is wrong; it is your own belief what makes it so. Others judge you as per their own perspective and convenience and we see them in similar way. According to Gurbani "Hum Nahin Change Bura Nahi Koye" So if we are able to rcoganise that we are not perfect ourself therefore no one is bad. That attitude fixes most of the problem.

Nine Gurus carried attire which is "SantSarup" saintly look of the time. Our Thenth Guru made the Saint a Saint Soldier. "Sant Sapahi" The Khalsa the ultimate complete Human who lives and die for humanity. Fearless But Nirmal. Prepared to fight the "Zulam and Zaalam". Fiercefull ferocious but emersed with Naam. Dev and Danav.

So Sikhs who followed the Guru and His Teachings with full submission felt proud to emerse and adopt to His Roop Guru "Swaroop". That State was "Ander Wase te Bahar Vee Ohi." and it becomes true "Guru Mere Sang Sada Heiy Naaley"

Those who look Guruswaroop (Saint) they are Guru Ke Sikh and those who take Amritpaan and emerse with Guru Gobind Singh ji's Daat become His appointed Khalsa and emerse in His SwaRoop of Sant Sapahi.

Others are just Sikhs or in the making and some times breaking when they break away from "Naam" because naam bina bahut Chottan Khaye.

Look at the farsightedness of our Gurus who handed us over to the Shabad Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The information age came too late for others but for Sikhs it was information age when we embraced Shabad Guru. 

In today's time intellect is the ruler and Guru Sahib get us involved into 11th Guru Guru Granth Sahib - what will be your swaroop when you get down to read and understand and intellectually ponder over the Gurbani with Giyan Dhyan and Tat Budh and clear all your confusions. You will be a Sikh Giyan Swaroop. No question shall stay unanswered. Guru Sahib also said to Khalsa to stay upto date with latest technology weaponary and all Sikhs must make effort to inspire their younger generation to join Services to be updated. all new technologies all times first used for military purposes.


Whatever group you think you classify yourself please do one thing keep holding to the "Naam" the Shabad Guru and do Gurbani Vichar. To all young just read one stanza of a Shabad from Gurbani ,( May be Daily Vaak") a day and ponder over its meaning as per your intellect do not get confused with interpretations of manmatt. 

I am 100% sure and positive that Naam is the ultimate Gift to any Sikh or Khalsa. Jeevan de which: In our Life
Bani bina Bana Kis Kam Da. Without GurBani Dress Code has no Meaning
Rahit Bina Amrit da Koi Labh Nahi. Without Truthful Living Baptism is false
Guru Bina Koi Sikh Nahi. Without Guru There is No Sikh
Gurbani bina Koi Naam Nahi. Without Gurbani Naam is beyond our reach
Naam bina koi kirat nahi.Without Naam our daily Chores has no meaning
Kirat bina Koi labh nahi. Without sincere efforts there are no gains

Therefore, dear friend, without Naam every thing is useless the Kesh, Bana, Baatan discussions. So please do not look at how you look first embrace Namm and the true look will automatically come and you will adopt its generated make up. 
Naam Japo that will keep you close to Guru.
Thanks
HP Luthera


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## Manmeet Singh Raj (Oct 2, 2007)

I think for me, the above poster really sums up the concept of tattooing in Sikhi.

Sikhi strictly prohibits any item that either promotes lust in others or causes the wearer any pain. If you do not believe me, read the Rehat Maryada.

I know our body's are considered temporary vessels, but that does not mean that we can do with it as we please. 

Tattoo's existed in the Indian Sub-continent even during the Guru's times and they stayed completely away from them. Does that not tell you something?

Dass


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## clarkejoey (Oct 3, 2007)

Sat Sri Akal.

Fascinating topic, and one that concerns me deeply! I'm on the conversion path, and while i'm sure my piercings will close up naturally, i know my 22 tattoos will not just fade!

Will i have to remove them to receive Amrit? I realise i should certainly cover my arms, especially at worship, and especially among others.

The overall impression from reading these posts is that the Guru did not speak specifically against tattoos, but he does speak about vanity, provoking lust and having ego. I may have put them on for vanity, but they mean something totally different now... a reminder of my dark days.

Naturally, i'll do what Guru says. None of my pieces are religious or sacreligious, and most are under normal clothes. Any tips anybody?


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## Manmeet Singh Raj (Oct 3, 2007)

In situations like yours 'Clarkejoey' you have to take everything into consideration. Remember when we take 'The Path', all of our previous experiences/lives are considered (for want of a better term) null and void.

I know of a few Singh's who prior to finding Sikhi, had tattoo's and numerous peircings. When they did make a firm commitment to their Guru, they decided to just cover up.

For them, it is just as you said 'a reminder of their past'. A physical image of where they came from and where they have reached they are now. The don't regret them, but they know for certain that they would never have another one. 

I hope that helps.

Dass


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 10, 2007)

clarkejoey said:


> Sat Sri Akal.
> 
> Fascinating topic, and one that concerns me deeply! I'm on the conversion path, and while i'm sure my piercings will close up naturally, i know my 22 tattoos will not just fade!
> 
> Will i have to remove them to receive Amrit?


 

tattoo removal is far more harmful to the body than getting a tattoo in the first place, so it doesn't seem like removing them would be the best solution. 

i'm a convert too, and you're right, the piercings close up (for the most part), but my tattoo is part of my body now. what we did before we were sikhs is not important. what's important is how we behave now.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 10, 2007)

i can't find anything in gurbani or rehet that prohibits tattoos, and they surely existed at the time of Guru Sahib.

i have seen many pooran gursikhs with Ek Onkar tattooed on their hand.  even Gyani Sant Maskeen ji had this tattoo.  

i think having Ek Onkar tattoo on the hand to make you think of God at every moment cannot be a bad thing...   it's when tattoos become glamour or flashy that they're a problem in my opinion.

yes, i know this is manmat.  but if gurbani doesn't touch on the subject, who do we look to for answers?  Maskeen ji is certainly someone I'd look up to...  if it was fine for him, i think i'm ok with it too.


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 10, 2007)

kaur?princess? said:


> I personally also feel that God really doesn't care if we get piercings or tattoos...


 

piercings are strictly forbidden by rehet.  i don't think it's the same thing.


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## KulwantK (Nov 4, 2007)

Sat Nam and Greetings everyone!
I have some decorative tattoos, they are flowers.  I got them before I became Sikh.  How have I dealt with this, you might ask.

I realize that Guru accepts me as I am, and I simply strive to be as good a Sikh, as good an individual as I can be, each day.  I try to see God in all, even those bikers one sees from time to time, who are often covered in tattoos.

The design of the body is amazing and excellent, but sometimes the expression of that design is not as perfect as the design itself.

Each has his or her own opinion of these matters.  

Many of my Sikh friends have worn the braces on their teeth to straighten very crooked teeth when they were younger.  The technology has helped them with keeping their health.  Also, many people have had corrective surgery on their eyes or other parts of the body when it was medically advised.

We are all born absolutely naked; no clothes on us at all when we are born.
This is the "natural" state.  Many people live in what are called "nudist camps."  (Rest assured, you will never find me there!)  

There appear to be many contradictions in what each of us understands to be cultural norms when compared with what we are meant to do as Sikhs.

How does each one of us solve this dilemma?

I ask myself what the Gurus might think, say, and do, and whenever I pray for an answer, I am most happy to say the answer is given.

Blessings to all,
Cheers,
Kulwant


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## Manmeet Singh Raj (Nov 4, 2007)

Dearest Kulwant Kaur Ji

Whilst I accept your really well put argument regarding the expression of the design not being as perfect as the design itself. I (personally) think the examples you give are somewhat non-related. 

Wearing corrective braces or laser treatment to correct hyperopia (far-sightedness), myopia (near-sightedness) and astigmatism (distorted vision when looking at objects at any distance) are standard medical procedures to bring a person's teeth or eyesight to a level which can be considered comparative to the average person.

Having a tattoo is purely decorative and has no physical or medical benefit. Some claim that their tattoos are somewhat symbolic of a moment in their life or of an experience they have reasoned with. I cannot think of a form of 'symbolism' than our Guru's Roop.


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## KulwantK (Nov 5, 2007)

I agree, Ji!  That is why I have not gotten any more!  They are not needed-
the Bana is quite sufficient, indeed!
Cheers and Blessings to all,
Kulwant


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 29, 2007)

KulwantK said:


> We are all born absolutely naked; no clothes on us at all when we are born.
> This is the "natural" state. Many people live in what are called "nudist camps." (Rest assured, you will never find me there!)


I bet you all of those people cut their hair, shave and clip their nails short.

Why do we clip our nails? 
Because in the stone age when we used our hands excessively, our nails would erode(not sure if its the right word), like for example beaver's teeth, they keep growing and the beaver needs to continuously gnaw on the wood to keep them short. Same logic with human nails. 
Similarly, we use cloth to act as fur for us, to keep us warm and to help control the animal instincts of others viewing us. 
NOw why humans need tattoos, I dont know. Maybe sumone else can elaborate on that.

Why we dont cut hair is a separate and a much more complex issue.

Bhagat


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## punjabikiren (Jan 3, 2008)

i think that its ur choice at the end of the day but having something religious is taking abit of a risk but if you are prepared to deal with it then go for it otherwise its upto you i dont think tattoos were out where the guru granth shib was written so i dont even think they were mentioned and neways its just like mehndi in a way dont you think?.....


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

yes, tattoos existed and were even common in some sections of indian society during Guru sahib's time.

note: this is not an endorsement, just an observation.


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## punjabikiren (Jan 3, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> yes, tattoos existed and were even common in some sections of indian society during Guru sahib's time.
> 
> note: this is not an endorsement, just an observation.


 

o right sorry about that then its just till this day i havent seen anyone in india with a tattoo so i just thought they didnt exist


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

punjabikiren said:


> o right sorry about that then its just till this day i havent seen anyone in india with a tattoo so i just thought they didnt exist



i've seen it mostly in the older generation...  an "ek onkar" or "om" tattooed on the hand was pretty common among rural punjabis.   also back in the pre-partition days, muslims used to tattoo their wife's name on her arm to show ownership or something...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

body is dust, tattoo it all you want, nothing matters, nothing changes
you are no more holier, no more beautiful than before

tattoo the name of Akal on your soul,
eternal bliss is all you get


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## kilemba (Mar 18, 2008)

Tattoos are a personal choice and it is up to the individual to decide. The Gurus taught us to follow the path and did not dictate or force any of us to follow the Khalsa path. We in return should not judge others in their choices.


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## Harneetbarmy (Jul 3, 2008)

BaljeetSingh said:


> Well....my take on this issue is as follows:
> 
> Rules of religion and society are two different things and should be treated separately.
> 
> ...


 
Marvelous answer I am proud to be a SIKH


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## mrs ravinder kaur kalsi (Aug 25, 2008)

I personally believe in sikhism tattoos are not  right as  shaving our hair & modifying our  body is  not acceptable  .my daughter got khanda tattoo on her wrist just to say that she has done good or in a way to shut us up that she has got religious believes because we were not  supporting her to have tattoo


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## spnadmin (Aug 25, 2008)

mrs ravinder kaur kalsi said:


> I personally believe in sikhism tattoos are not  right as  shaving our hair & modifying our  body is  not acceptable  .my daughter got khanda tattoo on her wrist just to say that she has done good or in a way to shut us up that she has got religious believes because we were not  supporting her to have tattoo



Kids are really pips, aren't they? Bless you for being as calm as you are, as philosophical.:star:


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## pk70 (Aug 25, 2008)

*After reading Gurbani again and again, I have started feeling that most of us are more into” don’t do this don’t do that” tattooing is one of them; however, we never  take Guru teaching seriously as solely reflecting light towards the Lord. I am not in favor of snubbing children’s a little harmless fun as tattooing is. Having tattoo is bad but living a Hypocritical life is O.K. isn’t it funny? What kind of examples we are setting for the new generation? By having a tattoo the body is not defiled but by telling lies, doing ritualistic Gurbani reciting and living almost contrary to it, shall defile the body more than the tattoo. Our hyper strictness discourages the children to be what we want them to be as Sikhs. Tattooing is very harmless and even after having it, body can remain holy if Guru teachings are taken as wows of commitment to Guru and the Lord. Solely my opinions on it, if any hardliner is offended, sorry; however, truth cannot be hidden with false cover ups.*


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## mrs ravinder kaur kalsi (Aug 26, 2008)

As i said tattoos are not acceptable in sikhism but  our reason for refusing to accept my daughters tattoo was very personal as she dress up like goth & many of her friends  got lots of tattoos , it felt like the beginning of  more and more tattoos but tattoo has not change her .she is still same loving beti as she was before .It is very personal decision .when kids grow old enough to make their choices then it is their choice not ours .


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## spnadmin (Aug 26, 2008)

mrs ravinder kaur kalsi said:


> As i said tattoos are not acceptable in sikhism but  our reason for refusing to accept my daughters tattoo was very personal as she dress up like goth & many of her friends  got lots of tattoos , it felt like the beginning of  more and more tattoos but tattoo has not change her .she is still same loving beti as she was before .It is very personal decision .when kids grow old enough to make their choices then it is their choice not ours .



She is your loving "beti" because you are a wise mother, and use wisdom mixed in with love. :idea: No more needs to be said. Would that your wisdom become more widespread! There would be less resentment and controversy in families.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 26, 2008)

Neutral Singh said:


> Some of us do have ik ong kar or the khanda tattooed on our hands... What do you think about this?



I don't think Bani says anything about this either way does it?


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## spnadmin (Aug 26, 2008)

randip singh said:


> I don't think Bani says anything about this either way does it?



Randip ji, No it does not. And there is very little that is forbidden -- Gurbani rather promoting the ability of each of us to meditate upon our relationship with the Satguru. That is why the arguments over the specifics of life -- tatoos, braids, what we eat, etc. etc. etc. become so hotly contested. These are all practices and prescriptions that evolve within a culture of belief, and become deeply embedded in the human mind. After which it becomes difficult to avoid emotionality. Now just what would happen if we did x? What exactly would happen if we did not do y? The questions challenge culture, and things get emotional, and wisdom is lost.

Just my humble opinion.


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## mrs ravinder kaur kalsi (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

hello borneo ji ,its very difficult to say what is right or wrong .when i was 12-13 years old my mum had amrit  in india .my mum got ears & nose pierced same like most of our grans & nans that did not make them less of  sikhs my late dad was born in 1917 he had his name tattooed when he was teenager all his life this wasn,t a questionable issue .Why now .my daughter got khanda tattoo on her wrist that doesn,t make her better or worse person .if our mums are wearing gold stud in their nose it is ok but if a young girl is wearing silver hoop it is objectionable Why is that ? so i can say it is very personal  how you take it


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



mrs ravinder kaur kalsi said:


> hello borneo ji ,its very difficult to say what is right or wrong .when i was 12-13 years old my mum had amrit in india .my mum got ears & nose pierced same like most of our grans & nans that did not make them less of sikhs my late dad was born in 1917 he had his name tattooed when he was teenager all his life this wasn,t a questionable issue .Why now .my daughter got khanda tattoo on her wrist that doesn,t make her better or worse person .if our mums are wearing gold stud in their nose it is ok but if a young girl is wearing silver hoop it is objectionable Why is that ? so i can say it is very personal how you take it


 
Mrs Ravinder Kaur Kalsiji 

Behind everything we do there is a reason and it has a positive or negative affect on our soul.  No matter what it is, it affects us directly or indirectly.  A tatto and piercing on the body affect a person even if it is the smallest incremental change.  Now to say if they don't affect you then why get them?  Then getting a tattoo or piercing is a ritual and Sikh are advised not to perform rituals.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

are we allowed to get plastic surgery or any type of surgery for that matter?


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

too much of "snip & tuck" lately?

asides,

is cutting of nails allowed?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



amarsanghera said:


> too much of "snip & tuck" lately?
> 
> asides,
> 
> is cutting of nails allowed?


 
:rofl!!::rofl!!:Bhagat ji and amarsanghera ji you guys are a perfect example of people who have closed off their minds. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present such a perfect example.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Singh ji

*There are often obvious elements of ridicule and sarcasm in your responses to forum members who express their opinions on topics -- which is what an Internet forum is about -- nothing more and nothing less. This is a warning to temper your sarcasm and ridicule. Next an infraction. Thank you. *


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> *There are often obvious elements of ridicule and sarcasm in your responses to forum members who express their opinions on topics -- which is what an Internet forum is about -- nothing more and nothing less. This is a warning to temper your sarcasm and ridicule. Next an infraction. Thank you. *


 

And there two bottom post are not to mock and sarcastic. In my humble opinion i think some people like too choose favorites. And this is not the only time they have mocked others. So quick to warn me but their post go unnoticed.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> are we allowed to get plastic surgery or any type of surgery for that matter?


I didn't think that was sarcastic but I guess some people find sarcasm in everthing.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Singh ji

Forum leaders are nannies on steroids. So please abide by my warning. Adding this thought. I did read the previous posts more than twice just to make sure that there was no provocation. I came to the conclusion that neither of the posts by the other 2 forum members before your post were  sarcastic. They were asking pointed questions. That is my conclusion.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

lol nannies on steroids


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## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

*OK -- The discussion has veered off topic and into a disappointing direction. So I have decided to move all the recent posts that are off topic to a different part of the forum. Please continue with the discussion of tattoos. Thank you*.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> *OK -- The discussion has veered off topic and into a disappointing direction. So I have decided to move all the recent posts that are off topic to a different part of the forum. Please continue with the discussion of tatoos. Thank you*.


lol you got ****ed off didn't you? :}{}{}:
fools wrangling over flesh again! :happy:


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> lol you got ****ed off didn't you? :}{}{}:
> fools wrangling over flesh again! :happy:



Rather I would say exasperated. Please return to the topic.:advocate:


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Rather I would say exasperated. Please return to the topic.:advocate:


Ok


So ya what about plastic surgery/ cosmetic surgery and other surgeries?

What about those GPS transmitters that some people get inserted into their skin?


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Bhagat ji

People have GPS transmitters inserted into their skin? Why? I think all your questions are good questions. Just wondering if this has anything to do with tagging someone so they can never get lost. Or is that wrong?


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> Ok
> 
> 
> So ya what about plastic surgery/ cosmetic surgery and other surgeries?
> ...


 
What does any of these question got to do with tattoos and piercings


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> People have GPS transmitters inserted into their skin? Why? I think all your questions are good questions. Just wondering if this has anything to do with tagging someone so they can never get lost. Or is that wrong?


Tagging someone AND if they need help (like medical help) the "machine" will detect that. I do need to research more but i watched "Myth Busters" and they had some myth related to this and thats how i came to know about this.

well (good or bad?)... depends on how you look at it.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> Srry about the above reply, I thought you were bullshitting again.
> 
> Tattooes and piercings alter the skin and so do sugeries and those "machines" (i dont know if they are called Gps transmitters for sure)


 

And your point is what about the skin?  Where are you going with this?


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

okay...


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

gona walk away ... slowly... :whisling:


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## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> Tagging someone AND if they need help (like medical help) the "machine" will detect that. I do need to research more but i watched "Myth Busters" and they had some myth related to this and thats how i came to know about this.
> 
> well (good or bad?)... depends on how you look at it.



Bhagat ji

So you seem to be using the GPS as an example of how a body is altered -- and the reasoning is that it is for a good cause. It sounds like it would be a valuable alternative for older people with Alzheimer's Disease. They have a tendency to wander and become extremely forgetful -- posing a danger to themselves. There are newspaper reports of these poor souls wandering on highways. Families who try to keep them at home often end up finding an elderly relative has been picked up by the police. They are in a confused state. Nursing homes will often hospitalize these old people but keep them in locked wards so that they cannot wander. 

The philosophical questions for the thread might be something like these. Are we forbidden to alter our bodies under any circumstance? Even if the cause is a good one? And even if we are not sure of the facts surrounding a procedure like the use of GPS? 

And of course the questions presume that Gurbani forbids every sort of change to our natural form. That claim is still debateable as far as I can tell.

Cheers


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> Srry about the above reply, I thought you were bullshitting again.
> 
> Tattooes and piercings alter the skin and so do sugeries and those "machines" (i dont know if they are called Gps transmitters for sure)


 
Well medical sugeries are for health reason and what are tattoos and piercings for????


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

k


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> So you seem to be using the GPS as an example of how a body is altered -- and the reasoning is that it is for a good cause. It sounds like it would be a valuable alternative for older people with Alzheimer's Disease. They have a tendency to wander and become extremely forgetful -- posing a danger to themselves. There are newspaper reports of these poor souls wandering on highways. Families who try to keep them at home often end up finding an elderly relative has been picked up by the police. They are in a confused state. Nursing homes will often hospitalize these old people but keep them in locked wards so that they cannot wander.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, gurbani says no such thing about altering our bodies. I would like to see quotes from anyone who thinks otherwise. (I ask the question so people will think about it)

The thing about GPS is that it can be used to keep an eye on people WITHOUT their consent. ... it gets kind of tangled now... when is it good and when is it bad to  keep an eye on someone...etc


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## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> In my opinion, gurbani says no such thing about altering our bodies. I would like to see quotes from anyone who thinks otherwise. (I ask the question so people will think about it)
> 
> The thing about GPS is that it can be used to keep an eye on people WITHOUT their consent. ... it gets kind of tangled now... when is it good and when is it bad to  keep an eye on someone...etc



So that raises another ethical concern and question. Is it ethical to implant a GPS (alter a person's body) without their consent even though the intent of the action is for a "good" cause? 

How do we ask a similar ethical question about tattoos? Usually getting a tattoo is a voluntary act. So is consent assumed to be there? Also, could an argument be made that there are situations where getting a tattoo serves a good purpose?


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## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Bhagat ji

Moreover, I agree with your statement
In my opinion, gurbani says no such thing about altering our bodies. I would like to see quotes from anyone who thinks otherwise. (I ask the question so people will think about it)

Usually in argument someone will quote from Gurbani and then extrapolate to all sorts of things, such as: wearing nail polish, body piercing, getting hair extensions, bleaching and dyeing hair and beard, waxing, wearing makeup, and so forth. Hair extensions makes for an interesting case because when you get hair extensions you are making short hair longer -- going keshdari so to speak, but by artificial means.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> Hair extensions makes for an interesting case because when you get hair extensions you are making short hair longer -- going keshdari so to speak, but by artificial means.


ooh, Would love to hear what Singh ji has to say for that. :yes:

But ya gurbani is not concerned with short or long hair. It is concerned with the inner self and how this inner self interacts with the outer self and the world.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> In my opinion, gurbani says no such thing about altering our bodies. I would like to see quotes from anyone who thinks otherwise. (I ask the question so people will think about it)


 

Lol, nice response the fact you cannot disapprove tattoos and peircings are rituals then i have nothing to say; even present Gurbani wherre it says tattoos are not rituals and it will be accepted.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Lol, nice response the fact you cannot disapprove tattoos and peircings are rituals then i have nothing to say; even present Gurbani wherre it says tattoos are not rituals and it will be accepted.



Singh ji

It is impossible to prove a negative, that is to prove that something is NOT there. If Bhagat ji canNOT show that Gurbani says tatttoos and piercings are NOT rituals, that proves nothing.

And if  Gurbani does not say tattoos and piercings are not rituals, that does not prove that they are rituals.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> ooh, Would love to hear what Singh ji has to say for that. :yes:
> 
> But ya gurbani is not concerned with short or long hair. It is concerned with the inner self and how this inner self interacts with the outer self and the world.


 

i ll respond to this in the hair discussion no need to start this here.  This should be moved to the hair discussion page.

*Note: In context, it is related to this thread as a further example. (aad0002)
*


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> It is impossible to prove a negative, that is to prove that something is NOT there. If Bhagat ji canNOT show that Gurbani says tatoos and piercings are NOT rituals, that proves nothing.
> 
> And if Gurbani does not say tatoos and piercings are not rituals, that does not prove that they are rituals.


 

In Gurbani it talks about rituals and if not a ritual it can be disapproved.  All anyone has to prove it is not a ritual, shouldn't be hard


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> In Gurbani it talks about rituals and if not a ritual it can be disapproved.  All anyone has to prove it is not a ritual, shouldn't be hard


now back that up with quotes please.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> i ll respond to this in the hair discussion no need to start this here. This should be moved to the hair discussion page.
> 
> *Note: In context, it is related to this thread as a further example. (aad0002)*


 

*Hair is sacred in Sikhi and tattooes are not, two huge difference here.  Like i said i ll discuss this in the hair discussion no need to mix these two completely different topics together.*


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> *Hair is sacred in Sikhi and tattooes are not, two huge difference here.  Like i said i ll discuss this in the hair discussion no need to mix these two completely different topics together.*


Hair is not sacred in SGGS, keep that in mind.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> now back that up with quotes please.


 
Back what up with proof that tattooes are not rituals?  This is your task my friend you are the one saying they are not rituals.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> you are the one saying they are not rituals.


aad ji there should be a forum rule about accusing other members of saying things they never said.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> Hair is not sacred in SGGS, keep that in mind.


 
Like i said i will not discuss this here for it is going off topic.  If they are related start a new topic.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> But Gurbani never mentions tatroos.


and Singh jis says gurbani is against rituals. I would like some "evidence"


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Back what up with proof that tattooes are not rituals?  This is your task my friend you are the one saying they are not rituals.



Gurbani never mentions tattoos.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

I need to learn how to spell tattoos. Will correct errors.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> But Gurbani never mentions tatoos.


 
Everything Gurbani explains is not directly said.  For this Tattoos are rituals and fit into rituals.  I am finding it hard to believe aad ji and Bhagat ji, the team are finding it difficult to prove tattoos are not rituals


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Singh ji

Let's ask why tattoos are rituals? How do you know that? Then if we can establish that tattoos are rituals, we can then move on to see if Gurbani forbids it.

I never heard anyone ever claim that tattoos are rituals, or that getting tattooed is a ritual. More like a personal experiment.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Singh ji, 

I just want to add one correction to my statement, _I never heard anyone ever claim that tattoos are rituals, or that getting tattooed is a ritual. More like a personal experiment._

In some cultures, yes, tattoos are ritual marks. But when that happens, getting tattoos is a rite of passage for young boys and girls and is part of their religious practices. If we criticize that then we are being intolerant of another culture's religious beliefs and practices.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> Let's ask why tattoos are rituals? How do you know that? Then if we can establish that tattoos are rituals, we can then move on to see if Gurbani forbids it.
> 
> I never heard anyone ever claim that tattoos are rituals, or that getting tattooed is a ritual. More like a personal experiment.


 
Personal experiments for what?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Singh ji,
> 
> I just want to add one correction to my statement, _I never heard anyone ever claim that tattoos are rituals, or that getting tattooed is a ritual. More like a personal experiment._
> 
> In some cultures, yes, tattoos are ritual marks. But when that happens, getting tattoos is a rite of passage for young boys and girls and is part of their religious practices. If we criticize that then we are being intolerant of another culture's religious beliefs and practices.



Here's where this whole discussion took off so read that then respond maybe then we will come to a conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *mrs ravinder kaur kalsi*
_hello borneo ji ,its very difficult to say what is right or wrong .when i was 12-13 years old my mum had Amrit in india .my mum got ears & nose pierced same like most of our grans & nans that did not make them less of Sikhs my late dad was born in 1917 he had his name tattooed when he was teenager all his life this wasn,t a questionable issue .Why now .my daughter got khanda tattoo on her wrist that doesn,t make her better or worse person .if our mums are wearing gold stud in their nose it is ok but if a young girl is wearing silver hoop it is objectionable Why is that ? so i can say it is very personal how you take it_

Mrs Ravinder Kaur Kalsiji

Behind everything we do there is a reason and it has a positive or negative affect on our soul. No matter what it is, it affects us directly or indirectly. A tatto and piercing on the body affect a person even if it is the smallest incremental change. Now to say if they don't affect you then why get them? Then getting a tattoo or piercing is a ritual and Sikh are advised not to perform rituals.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Personal experiments for what?



Link to: Why People Get Tattooed


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Link to: Why Do Normal People Get Tattooed?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Why People Get Tattooed


 
No, personal experiment for what reason?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Why Do Normal People Get Tattooed?


 
That's what i want to know?


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

What is a ritual?

any customary observance or practice
of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual killing"
the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies
of or relating to or employed in social rites or rituals; "a ritual dance of Haiti"; "sedate little colonial tribe with its ritual tea parties"- Nadine Gordimer
stereotyped behavior

So IMHO, I don't think tattoos are a ritual - unless they are customary acts in a society and part of a religious or cultural ceremony.

Can we be intolerant of tattoos if they are part of a culture's religious practices?

Should we use Gurbani to condemn other people who may use tattoos as part of their religious and cultural experience?


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> That's what i want to know?




Did you click on the link --  Link to: Why Do  Normal People Get Tattooed?

Here it is http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7034500.stm


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Did you click on the link Why Do Normal People Get Tattooed?
> 
> Here it is BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | So why do 'normal' people get tattoos?


 
Tattooing can be done to fit in. In tribal societies where tattooing was done ritually, it often represented a part of the transition from childhood to adulthood and everyone went through this process.

Well that says right off the bat ritually is there even a point of going any further; next point they bring up is about ego.  So really either way tattooes and piercings falls into the five theives or its a ritual. Take your pick or pick both LOL


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> What is a ritual?
> 
> any customary observance or practice
> of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual killing"
> ...



Is this how Gurbani defines a ritual?


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Tattooing can be done to fit in. In tribal societies where tattooing was done ritually, it often represented a part of the transition from childhood to adulthood and everyone went through this process.
> 
> Well that says right off the bat ritually is there even a point of going any further; next point they bring up is about ego.  So really either way tattooes and piercings falls into the five theives or its a ritual. Take your pick or pick both LOL



Singh ji

So are you saying that we should condemn the religious practices of other cultures?  I don't see anything to LOL about here. 

We can also extend the discussion to talk about ego. What is ego? Have a care when you answer however because you don't want to set a trap for yourself.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Is this how Gurbani defines a ritual?


 
aadji the way you have defined rituals is that the way gurbani defines it?


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Everything Gurbani explains is not directly said.  For this Tattoos are rituals and fit into rituals.  I am finding it hard to believe aad ji and Bhagat ji, the team are finding it difficult to prove tattoos are not rituals


because we dont give a damn if they are rituals or not. You seem to care so much so why don't you go ahead and explain what rituals are in gurbani and how tattoas are rituals.
EDIT: SHEEESH!!


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> Is this how Gurbani defines a ritual?



Show me where Gurbani offers a definition of a ritual. An actual definition of a ritual, Singh ji. Please do not quote a line or two that uses the word "ritual" but rather a definition of "ritual."

Example: "Oh Nanak! A ritual can be defined as follows." Ang xxx


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



BhagatSingh said:


> because we dont give a damn if they are rituals or not. You seem to care so much so why don't you go ahead and explain what rituals are in gurbani and how tattoas are rituals.
> EDIT: SHEEESH!!


 
HAHAHAHAHHAHA I am surprised you held off this long man LOL :happy::happy:

I think i proved my point unless Aad ji wants to say something else


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> HAHAHAHAHHAHA I am surprised you held off this long man LOL :happy::happy:
> 
> I think i proved my point unless Aad ji wants to say something else


lol i had that reply written up but i got busy with someone on msn


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



Singh said:


> I think i proved my point unless Aad ji wants to say something else


For some reason u always think u proved something when in fact u dont prove anything at all.


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## spnadmin (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Singh ji, Bhagat ji,

I have to sign off now. But I will go to bed with this shabad in mind.


ਵਖਤੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਬੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
vakhath veechaarae s bandhaa hoe ||
One who reflects upon his allotted span of life, becomes the slave of God.
  
 ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
kudharath hai keemath nehee paae ||
The value of the Creative Power of the Universe cannot be known.
  
 ਜਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
jaa keemath paae th kehee n jaae ||
Even if its value were known, it could not be described.
  
 ਸਰੈ ਸਰੀਅਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
sarai sareeath karehi beechaar ||
Some think about religious rituals and regulations,
  
 ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਕੈਸੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
bin boojhae kaisae paavehi paar ||
but without understanding, how can they cross over to the other side?
  
 ਸਿਦਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਿਜਦਾ ਮਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਖਸੂਦੁ ॥ 
sidhak kar sijadhaa man kar makhasoodh ||
Let sincere faith be your bowing in prayer, and let the conquest of your mind be your objective in life.

   ਜਿਹ ਧਿਰਿ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਿਹ ਧਿਰਿ ਮਉਜੂਦੁ ॥੧॥ 
jih dhhir dhaekhaa thih dhhir moujoodh ||1||
Wherever I look, there I see God's Presence. ||1||

He is permeating everywhere. He does not condemn rituals. He says become a slave of God. He does stress that understanding is essential. He does stress that sincere faith be the way that we bow in prayer. He does stress that we conquer munn. And He does say that God's Presence is everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. So then -- The value of the Creative Power of the Universe cannot be known. This overpowers tattoos and piercings. 

Please forgive me for too much chatter.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*



aad0002 said:


> Show me where Gurbani offers a definition of a ritual. An actual definition of a ritual, Singh ji. Please do not quote a line or two that uses the word "ritual" but rather a definition of "ritual."
> 
> Example: "Oh Nanak! A ritual can be defined as follows." Ang xxx


 
I won't quote two or three it is easily achievable to obtain the definition of ritual in Gurbani just got to read Gurbani more carefully.  In the mean time I have to leave so i'll give you a full definition of a ritual by using Gurbani in my next post.  Until then.....

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ka Fateh


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## spnadmin (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Are we allowed to have Tattoos and Piercings*

Singh ji

We will wait for your definition.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

Here's Shabads by Bhagat Kabir ji.

GAUREE, KABEER JEE: If Yoga could be obtained by
wandering around naked, then all the deer of the forest would be liberated. || 1 || What does it matter whether someone
goes naked, or wears a deer skin, if he does not remember the Lord within his soul? || 1 || Pause || If the spiritual
perfection of the Siddhas could be obtained by shaving the head, then why haven.t sheep found liberation? || 2 || If
someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, why then haven.t eunuchs obtained the state of supreme
dignity? || 3 || Says Kabeer, listen, O men, O Siblings of Destiny: without the Lord.s Name, who has ever found salvation? ||
4 || 4 || GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || *When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause*
*||* *Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call*
*them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many*
*rituals?* *Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 ||* GAUREE, KABEER JEE: What use is
chanting, and what use is penance, fasting or devotional worship, to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality? || 1 ||
O humble people, link your mind to the Lord. Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. || 1 || Pause || Set
aside your greed and worldly ways. Set aside sexual desire, anger and egotism. || 2 || Ritual practices bind people in
egotism; meeting together, they worship stones. || 3 || Says Kabeer, He is obtained only by devotional worship. Through​innocent love, the Lord is met. || 4 || 6 || ang 324


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

Singh said:


> Here's Shabads by Bhagat Kabir ji.
> 
> GAUREE, KABEER JEE: If Yoga could be obtained by
> wandering around naked, then all the deer of the forest would be liberated. || 1 || What does it matter whether someone
> goes naked, or wears a deer skin, if he does not remember the Lord within his soul? || 1 || Pause || ​



Same could be said for hair. NO point in having hair if you don't remember the Lord.
Not just hair but any outward display.






> If the spiritual
> perfection of the Siddhas could be obtained by shaving the head, then why haven.t sheep found liberation? || 2 ||



If the spiritual perfection could be obtained by keeping uncut hair then why haven't all the animals found liberation and what about women, rastafarians, sikhs, sadhus and so on ? :shifty:





> If
> someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, why then haven.t eunuchs obtained the state of supreme
> dignity? || 3 || Says Kabeer, listen, O men, O Siblings of Destiny: without the Lord.s Name, who has ever found salvation? ||


Exactly! Lords name is more important! I can't stress that enough.



> 4 || 4 || GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
> water. || 1 || *When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause*
> *||* *Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call*
> *them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many*
> *rituals?* *Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 ||*


*
Ya renounce everything! Dont worry about things like long or short, cut or uncut, hair or anything else.

*


> GAUREE, KABEER JEE: What use is
> chanting, and what use is penance, fasting or devotional worship, to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality? || 1 ||


I add what is the use for keeping long , uncut hair, ", to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality?"



> O humble people, link your mind to the Lord. Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. || 1 || Pause || Set
> aside your greed and worldly ways. Set aside sexual desire, anger and egotism. || 2 || Ritual practices bind people in
> egotism; meeting together, they worship stones. || 3 || Says Kabeer, He is obtained only by devotional worship. Through​innocent love, the Lord is met. || 4 || 6 || ang 324


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:
4 || 4 || GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || *When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause*
*||* *Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call*
*them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many*
*rituals?* *Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 ||* 

*Ya renounce everything! Dont worry about things like long or short, cut or uncut, hair or anything else.*

*Its best you rethink what this shabad is actually saying!*


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

Singh said:


> Quote:
> 4 || 4 || GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
> water. || 1 || *When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause*
> *||* *Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call*
> ...


I have explained it above. You can't take my quotes  and gurbani quotes (or any other quote for that matter) out of context, it kills the meaning.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> I have explained it above. You can't take my quotes and gurbani quotes (or any other quote for that matter) out of context, it kills the meaning.


 
Look up the word renounce to get the definition. Then apply it to your hair quote.  It'll make things clearer


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

Singh said:


> Look up the word renounce to get the definition. Then apply it to your hair quote.  It'll make things clearer


Make things clearer for you?
well, renounce means to give up, disown, etc. I hope that helps.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Make things clearer for you?
> well, renounce means to give up, disown, etc. I hope that helps.


 
When a person renounces trying different looks what happens to the hair on the body?  The hair grows to a certain lenght then stops.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

Singh said:


> When a person renounces trying different looks what happens to the hair on the body?  The hair grows to a certain lenght then stops.


Or they just shave it off or even leave it alone, which results in dreadlocks.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Or they just shave it off or even leave it alone, which results in dreadlocks.


 
Shaving it is still a different look.  In order it to be not a different look one must be born with a shaved head otherwise it is not renouncing everything in the since of hair and still is trying a different look.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

Singh said:


> Shaving it is still a different look.  In order it to be not a different look one must be born with a shaved head otherwise it is not renouncing everything in the since of hair and still is trying a different look.


so ur saying we should all keep dreadlocks?


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> so ur saying we should all keep dreadlocks?


 
Now lets get back to Tattooes and piercings.  As they fit into trying different looks they are rituals.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2008)

Singh said:


> Now lets get back to Tattooes and piercings.


Hahaha, ok...



Singh said:


> As they fit into trying different looks they are rituals.


Nice definition of a ritual! 

Let's burn all dictionaries! :happy: That's how we Sikhs handle things around here! :}{}{}:


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 24, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahaha, ok...
> 
> 
> Nice definition of a ritual!
> ...


 
You can burn whatever you like, but the facts are there and by this response i take it you have nothing else suitable to say about this conversation, for this is your way of just to mock what i say.  Too bad this is what you have to come down too.


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## spnadmin (Sep 25, 2008)

Bhagat ji

I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here 

There are 4 possible scenarios if we examine rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, or body piercing, etc. side-by-side with  spiritual understanding. Here they are.

1. Person A engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.)  and does *not* obtain spiritual understanding.

2. Person B engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.)  but does obtain spiritual understanding.

3. Person C does *not* engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.

4. Person D does *not *engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc.) and does *not *obtain spiritual understanding. 

If Person B and Person C obtain spiritual understanding, it does not matter that one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. and the other one did not. It makes no difference whatsoever.

If Person A and Person D *do not* obtain spiritual understanding, once again it does not matter whether one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc. and the other did not. The end result is the same. 

Gurbani says over and over again: The only thing of true importance, the only thing that matters is obtaining spiritual understanding (enlightenment). 

Renouncing rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. does not affect enlightenment one way or the other. 

So Kabeer is saying give up (renounce), renounce practices that accomplish nothing of true importance. He is saying: Substitute the "supreme essence of the Lord." Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that one *must* renounce these things. Kabeer is not saying this either. And Gurbani does not say that rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc  get in the way of obtaining spiritual understanding.


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## spnadmin (Sep 25, 2008)

So we should go for spiritual understanding. :happy:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 25, 2008)

aadji

the line between spiritual understanding and hallucinations is very thin


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## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 25, 2008)

<<When a person renounces trying different looks what happens to the hair on the body? The hair grows to a certain lenght then stops.>>

same with nails....if you don't cut them, they curl themselves and stop interfering

also

why do people tie their uncut hair in different ways?

any kind of different dresses are efforts to look different. specially different color turbans, or different styles of turbans


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 25, 2008)

> same with nails....if you don't cut them, they curl themselves and stop interfering


Actually, no the nails will keep growing and will keep interfering unless they are removed. Since us humans don't use our hands the way we used to, which were what the nails were designed for.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 25, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here
> 
> ...


Nice post, Aad ji ! You don't need my help!


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 25, 2008)

Singh said:


> You can burn whatever you like, but the facts are there and by this response i take it you have nothing else suitable to say about this conversation, for this is your way of just to mock what i say.  Too bad this is what you have to come down too.


Singh Ji, I have already explained the definition of a ritual to you. Aad ji was kind enough to post it AGAIN in this thread. Yet, you ignore them both and make up your own. I really DON'T have anything to say to that! 
By burning dictionaries I meant you are completely ignoring the definition of a ritual. I was relating that to Kala Afghana where other Sikhs burned his books. It is not something I would do.
and Yes facts are there, so why are you ignoring them?


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 25, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> aadji
> 
> the line between spiritual understanding and hallucinations is very thin



I know. I pray.


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## Archived_Member4 (Sep 25, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Singh Ji, I have already explained the definition of a ritual to you. Aad ji was kind enough to post it AGAIN in this thread. Yet, you ignore them both and make up your own. I really DON'T have anything to say to that!
> By burning dictionaries I meant you are completely ignoring the definition of a ritual. I was relating that to Kala Afghana where other Sikhs burned his books. It is not something I would do.
> and Yes facts are there, so why are you ignoring them?


 
Once again, is that how Gurbani defines a ritual????? Plus in the hair discussion I have already given why this definition is not accepted. Some like zombies just accept definitions because they are in a dictionary. But, when it comes down to Gurbani they question everything and only accept what makes sense to them. Excellent work you question Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Guru's Hukams, but accept a dictionary as the truth.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 25, 2008)

Singh said:


> Once again, is that how Gurbani defines a ritual????? Plus in the hair discussion I have already given why this definition is not accepted.


Lol you have "given why this definition is not accpeted"? I didn't know, I must've missed it. Either that or you are again thinking you proved something when you didn't prove anything.



> Some like zombies just accept definitions because they are in a dictionary.


Ya some do but Aad Ji and I don't. 



> But, when it comes down to Gurbani they question everything and only accept what makes sense to them.


Ya question everything! That is good advice. Accepting only what makes sense keeps you from getting lost.



> Excellent work you question Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Guru's Hukams, but accept a dictionary as the truth.


Excellent you keep on accusing me of things I don't do! Isn't that against gurbani? :shifty:


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 25, 2008)

> Lol you have "given why this definition is not accpeted"? I didn't know, I must've missed it. Either that or you are again thinking you proved something when you didn't prove anything.


 
You miss alot of things. Just like Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam. :yes: 



> Ya some do but Aad Ji and I don't.


 
Both of you accepted the definition of a ritual from a dictionary. Without actually looking at the definition. It's clear you accept a dictionary defining of ritual over Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and if this wasn't true none of you would have presented it for the discussion as a fact. 



> Ya question everything! That is good advice. Accepting only what makes sense keeps you from getting lost.


 
So it's true you accept a dictionary definition over Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji since you have not questioned the definition of a ritual from a dictionary and have questioned the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and Guru ji's Hukam. If you had questioned it then you would not have presented it in the hair discussion for you would have understood this definition is useless.



> Excellent you keep on accusing me of things I don't do! Isn't that against gurbani? :shifty:


 
The above comments prove you have done so.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 26, 2008)

Singh said:


> You miss alot of things. Just like Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam. :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Singh ji

Then are you completely certain of your judgments? Are you completely convinced your conclusions are correct? Completely certain that Bhagat ji and possibly I have questioned the truth of Guruji? Is this what your mind tells you?

And all of this from a discussion about tattoos?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 26, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here
> 
> ...


 
I would love to respond to this post, but before I do. Please define spiritual understanding, so then I know what you mean by spiritual understanding.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Sep 27, 2008)

singh ji

what definition you want of spiritual understanding?



you sem to believe that multiple definitions exist for something

which i agree too.

please elaborate.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 27, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> singh ji
> 
> what definition you want of spiritual understanding?
> 
> ...


 
The definition that I want is the one that Aadji used when she wrote up her reply with the four possible scenarios post.


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 28, 2008)

Singh said:


> I would love to respond to this post, but before I do. Please define spiritual understanding, so then I know what you mean by spiritual understanding.



Singh ji

This is what Sri Guruji says about spiritual understanding,

_Nanak, the Divine Light has dawned within my mind; 
    I have obtained the state of Nirvana (sggs 206)._

Substitute "Divine Light" for spiritual understanding in the 4 scenarios that I outlined, and yet it makes no difference. One can renounce tattoos and everything else and still not find IT. One can be tattooed all over one's body, and nevertheless find IT. Renounce what is useless because it is useless. Fill your consciousness with simran and dhyanna and the tattoo question will begin to be unimportant. The _jyote _is all that maters, in my humble opinion.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Sep 30, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> Then are you completely certain of your judgments? Are you completely convinced your conclusions are correct? Completely certain that Bhagat ji and possibly I have questioned the truth of Guruji? Is this what your mind tells you?
> 
> And all of this from a discussion about tattoos?


 
Aad ji, 
One thing that you have been accused of is blindly accepting a dictionary's definition of a ritual. This has also been proven by you, by presenting the definition as a fact. To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said.

But Bhagat Singh ji did question the truth of Guru ji. For he has said the Amrit Sanskar is a ritual in the hair discussion. He continued on to say it's magical (in the sense of False) and the water when the Amrit Sanskar is complete is just simple water. By this he is saying the Banis read over the Amrit do nothing at all to the water,which is the Amrit. Bhagat Singh ji, not only questioned the truth of the Guru in this case Amrit Sanskar, but goes on to call Amrit Sanskar of the Guru to be false.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> But Bhagat Singh ji did question the truth of Guru ji. For he has said the Amrit Sanskar is a ritual in the hair discussion. He continued on to say it's magical (in the sense of False) and the water when the Amrit Sanskar is complete is just simple water. By this he is saying the Banis read over the Amrit do nothing at all to the water,which is the Amrit. Bhagat Singh ji, not only questioned the truth of the Guru in this case Amrit Sanskar, but goes on to call Amrit Sanskar of the Guru to be false.


There he goes Aad ji, tryning to accuse me of things I never said or even thought of!

Singh ji, I never said Amrit is true or false. and FYI Guru ji said Naam is truth (satnam) not amrit or anything else.


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> Aad ji,
> One thing that you have been accused of is blindly accepting a dictionary's definition of a ritual. This has also been proven by you, by presenting the definition as a fact. To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said.
> 
> But Bhagat Singh ji did question the truth of Guru ji. For he has said the Amrit Sanskar is a ritual in the hair discussion. He continued on to say it's magical (in the sense of False) and the water when the Amrit Sanskar is complete is just simple water. By this he is saying the Banis read over the Amrit do nothing at all to the water,which is the Amrit. Bhagat Singh ji, not only questioned the truth of the Guru in this case Amrit Sanskar, but goes on to call Amrit Sanskar of the Guru to be false.



Sounds to me singh ji as if you have made an accusation. Now I am pointing this out in good humor. You said above "To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said." 

Let's analyze your sentence. You say that I have questioned the truth of Guruji and that I have done that to distort what you actually said. Are you saying that your words give you the high ground spiritually,  and therefore you are entitled to accuse people? I thought we were here to learn. 

You have still not told us where or how Guruji "defined" rituals. So where did Bhagat ji call Amrit Sanchar of the Guru to be* false*? He seems to be saying something very mystical about Amrit Sanchar. _That is, simple water which is more than water remains water._ It sounds as if one of the :}8-: 's has taken charge for the moment. When do we go to trial?


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 1, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sounds to me singh ji as if you have made an accusation. Now I am pointing this out in good humor. You said above "To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said."
> 
> Let's analyze your sentence. You say that I have questioned the truth of Guruji and that I have done that to distort what you actually said. Are you saying that your words give you the high ground spiritually, and therefore you are entitled to accuse people? I thought we were here to learn.
> 
> You have still not told us where or how Guruji "defined" rituals. So where did Bhagat ji call Amrit Sanchar of the Guru to be* false*? He seems to be saying something very mystical about Amrit Sanchar. _That is, simple water which is more than water remains water._ It sounds as if one of the :}8-: 's has taken charge for the moment. When do we go to trial?


 
Aad ji not only did i accuse you of accepting a dictionary's definition blindy but YOU, YOURSELF PROVED YOU HAVE ACCEPTED IT BY POSTING IT AS A FACT FOR YOUR ARGUEMENT. ALL I HAD TO DO IS POINT IT OUT. If you call pointing something out high ground spirituality then pretty much everyone has high ground spirituality. Once again just pointed it out. Don't shot the messenger.

Here's the original post by Bhagat ji about Amrit Sanskar. 

Guru Gobind Singh ji started this discipline he called "Khalsa". He intiated people into this discipline so they could fight oppression!
But Gur Gobind SIngh was smart, what he did was make the Amrit ceremony a ritual (yes a ritual)! This attracted quite a number of people as it seemed very magical to them (and still does). And all Guru Gobind Singh ji really had to do was say was that the water in the bowl would make one(who drinks it) fight millions! And voila!!! We have 21 vs 1000, 40 vs 10000, 2 vs 800 and so on! What power of this simple water and his rebelious discipline!!! It fascinating but it is not to be confused with Sikhism! Well, that's my take on it.




> When do we go to trial?


 
The sarcasm coming from a mod and mocking reply. Breaking their own rules, but tell others to keep in line on the same rule. It's funny how some resort to humor when proven wrong. Great defense mechanism for a closed mind.


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> There he goes Aad ji, tryning to accuse me of things I never said or even thought of!
> 
> Singh ji, I never said Amrit is true or false. and FYI Guru ji said Naam is truth (satnam) not amrit or anything else.


 
Just read your post Bhagat Singh its clear you call it false indirectly.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> Just read your post Bhagat Singh its clear you call it false indirectly.


What do you mean by false?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 3, 2008)

this is now turning into a cat and mouse game


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## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> this is now turning into a cat and mouse game



I know -- but tell us, what are the other ways the discussion can go?


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 3, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Or they just shave it off or even leave it alone, which results in dreadlocks.


 
Keeping it in dreadlocks is not keeping the hair clean and pure. A Sikh purify's the exterior and interior of the body. The Khalsa Panth is the exact definition of inner and outer purity. 

Inwardly polluted, and outwardly pure. Those who are outwardly pure and yet polluted within, lose their lives in the gamble. They contract this
terrible disease of desire, and in their minds, they forget about dying. In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the
Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons. Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and
cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. || 19 || Inwardly pure, and outwardly pure. Those who are outwardly pure
and also pure within, through the Guru, perform good deeds. Not even an iota of falsehood touches them; their hopes are
absorbed in the Truth. Those who earn the jewel of this human life, are the most excellent of merchants. Says Nanak, those
whose minds are pure, abide with the Guru forever. || 20 || ang 919


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 3, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> This is what Sri Guruji says about spiritual understanding,
> 
> ...


 
Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter. But this is not true, for in Japji Sahib on ang 4 it clearly says one's actions affect the soul.

When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty, water can
wash away the dirt. When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine, soap can wash them clean. But when the intellect is
stained and polluted by sin, it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name. Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul. You shall harvest what you plant. O Nanak, by the Hukam of
God.s Command, we come and go in reincarnation. || 20 || ang 4



GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause
|| Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call
them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many
rituals? Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 || ang 324

GAUREE,
FIFTH MEHL: Save me, O My Father God. I am worthless and without virtue; all virtues are Yours. || 1 || Pause || The five
vicious thieves are assaulting my poor being; save me, O Savior Lord! They are tormenting and torturing me. I have come, seeking Your Sanctuary. || 1 || Trying all sorts of things, I have grown
weary, but still, they will not leave me alone. But I have heard that they can be rooted out, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company
of the Holy; and so I seek their Shelter. || 2 || In their Mercy, the Saints have met me, and from them, I have obtained
satisfaction. The Saints have given me the Mantra of the Fearless Lord, and now I practice the Word of the Guru.s Shabad. ||
3 || I have now conquered those terrible evil-doers, and my speech is now sweet and sublime. Says Nanak, the Divine Light
has dawned within my mind; I have obtained the state of Nirvaanaa. || 4 || 4 || 125 || ang 206

*Through various rituals, one does not find release. Without*
*virtue, one is sent to the City of **Death**.*
One will not have this world or the next; committing sinful mistakes, one comes to regret and repent in the end. He has neither
spiritual wisdom or meditation; neither Dharmic faith mor meditation. Without the Name, how can one be fearless? How can he
understand egotistical pride? I am so tired . how can I get there? This ocean has no bottom or end. I have no loving
companions, whom I can ask for help. O Nanak, crying out, .Beloved, Beloved., we are united with the Uniter. He who
separated me, unites me again; my love for the Guru is infinite. || 37 || ang 935

The shabads in bold and other two shabads say otherwise from what you have written in your 4 scenarios post and in post number 185. Person B engages in various rituals and does not find release/Divine light/spiritual understanding. Also he is without virtue for compassion is a virtue and Bhagat Kabir ji says on ang 324 “Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams.” 

In both post you have said renounce what is useless/nothing of true importance and tattoos are of no importance. 


Inwardly pure and Outwardly pure is a Sikhs path.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 3, 2008)

Singh said:


> Keeping it in dreadlocks is not keeping the hair clean and pure. A Sikh purify's the exterior and interior of the body. The Khalsa Panth is the exact definition of inner and outer purity.


nonsense! dreadlocks can be kept clean by washing them, and as for pure, if you remember God you are pure otherwise you are impure (which has nothing to do with dreadlocks).


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## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2008)

Singh ji

With all due respect -- I would really not want to post anymore in this thread -- except now you have said,

Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter. 

How do you come to this conclusion? Of course actions affect one's soul! However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Oct 3, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> nonsense! dreadlocks can be kept clean by washing them, and as for pure, if you remember God you are pure otherwise you are impure (which has nothing to do with dreadlocks).


 
Just by washing the dreadlocks they do not become clean.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Oct 3, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> With all due respect -- I would really not want to post anymore in this thread -- except now you have said,
> 
> ...


 
Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs. 



> However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?


 
Listening.Shiva, Brahma
and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. 
Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 9 || Listening.truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom. Listening.take your
cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage. Listening.reading and reciting, honor is obtained. Listening.intuitively​grasp the essence of meditation. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 10 || ang 3

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like
the unwanted bride decorating her body. Her Husband Lord does not come to her bed; day after day, she grows more and
more miserable. She does not attain the Mansion of His Presence; she does not find the door to His House. || 1 || O Siblings
of Destiny, meditate on the Naam with one-pointed mind. Remain united with the Society of the Saints; chant the Name of the​
Lord, and find peace. || 1 || Pause || ang 31

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation
and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within. You may perform religious rituals, and still never
obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord. *Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name*​
*of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind.* || 1 || ang 33

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The world is polluted with the filth of
egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. This filth of egotism cannot be washed
away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines. Performing all sorts of rituals, people are smeared with​
twice as much filth. This filth is not removed by studying. Go ahead, and ask the wise ones. || 1 || ang39


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 3, 2008)

Singh said:


> Just by washing the dreadlocks they do not become clean.


:}:
right... does anyone else see the absurdity in that statement?


----------



## BhagatSingh (Oct 3, 2008)

Aad ji you might as well just go bang your head in a wall.  (I don't recommend it but it will be better than this.):yes:


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 3, 2008)

Singh said:


> Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs.


 Ya that accomplishes so much! Sikhs are d best!! :happy:We hear stuff and become better jsut like that without moving a muscle!!:roll:




> Listening.Shiva, Brahma
> and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.
> Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 9 || Listening.truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom. Listening.take your
> cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage. Listening.reading and reciting, honor is obtained. Listening.intuitively​grasp the essence of meditation. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 10 || ang 3



*lis·ten* 

     (lĭs'ən)  Pronunciation Key 
intr.v.   *lis·tened*, *lis·ten·ing*, *lis·tens*
 

To make an *effort *to hear something: _listen to the radio; listening for the bell._
*To pay attention*; heed: _"She encouraged me to listen carefully to what country people called mother wit"_ _(Maya Angelou)._
Obviously, there must be some thought process as we listen otherwise we are not actually listening. Listening often leads to questioning. 
That said, I am pretty sure listening is not literally "listening" as shown by "Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.". "Listening" is something different here.
Guru Nanak also says knowing the truth is good but living the truth is better.


try going over your shabads and explain what point you are trying to make by posting them up. By simply posting them, you prove nothing.


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 3, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ya that accomplishes so much! Sikhs are d best!! :happy:We hear stuff and become better jsut like that without moving a muscle!!:roll:


 
 Who ever said anything about not moving a muscle?   

*



lis·ten 

 (lĭs'ən) Pronunciation Key 
intr.v. lis·tened, lis·ten·ing, lis·tens


To make an effort to hear something: listen to the radio; listening for the bell.
To pay attention; heed: "She encouraged me to listen carefully to what country people called mother wit" (Maya Angelou).
Obviously, there must be some thought process as we listen otherwise we are not actually listening. Listening often leads to questioning. 

That said, I am pretty sure listening is not literally "listening" as shown by "Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.". "Listening" is something different here.
Guru Nanak also says knowing the truth is good but living the truth is better.


try going over your shabads and explain what point you are trying to make by posting them up. By simply posting them, you prove nothing.
		
Click to expand...

* 
Bhagat ji, stop banging your head against the wall its not helping you.  But if you think it is, more power to you.


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 3, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> :}:
> right... does anyone else see the absurdity in that statement?


 
After i wash my hair its combed to take all the tangles out, otherwise the hair is a mess and not clean and others do the same.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 5, 2008)

Singh said:


> After i wash my hair its combed to take all the tangles out, otherwise the hair is a mess and not clean and others do the same.


Cleaning with soap cleans the hair,
just as Naam in this world has become very rare.
Dreadlocks are a natural state of hair,
given to man by God who is fairest of fair.
If your brain is still tangled,
how good is getting your hair untanlged?
O Bhagat, first get your brain untangled,
by meditating upon the Naam, which is both tangled and untangled.


Like someone not getting enough attention,
why do you keep making false accusations?
It is not a waste of your time,
to go over this meaningful rhyme.
Like releasing smelly gas in quick bursts,
O Bhagat, making false accusations are the worst of the worsts.


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 5, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Cleaning with soap cleans the hair,
> just as Naam in this world has become very rare.
> Dreadlocks are a natural state of hair,
> given to man by God who is fairest of fair.
> ...


 
Applying soap to tangled hair do not even cleasne the outer hair, for the inner hair are even more tangled and twisted. They call tangled and twisted hair natural state, but they do not know one is born without tangles. They apply rituals to their soul over and over but the naam is not know to them. Without applying the naam to the outer and inner tangles the naam is not obtained.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Oct 5, 2008)

> Applying soap to tangled hair do not even cleasne the outer hair,


uh... are you sure you are from eath? because on earth soap cleans stuff. 



> for the inner hair are even more tangled and twisted.


lol what is this "inner hair" you speak of?



> They call tangled and twisted hair natural state,


BTW dreadlocks are clumped together, less tangled. Hair twist and bend on their own anyway.


> but they do not know one is born without tangles.


One is born iwth short hair. 



> They apply rituals to their soul over and over


right...


> but the naam is not know to them.


Not everyone who performs rituals. don't go making generalizations.



> Without applying the naam to the outer and inner tangles the naam is not obtained.


LMAO :rofl!!:


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 5, 2008)

*Back to tattoos  the topic of the thread. *Though I cannot resist wondering about "inner tangles" nonetheless,

From BBC online In the past, tattoos used to be mainly a badge of belonging and were generally the preserve of armed forces personnel, bikers and tribes. But they are now used to express individuality and can range from the small dolphin on the ankle to huge montages of a fan's favourite pop group, or even tattoos covering most of the body. 






*It is only now in Western culture that tattoos are becoming an expression of individuality rather than being about belonging to a community*



Katie Maggs

for the rest of the story go to this link: BBC NEWS | Health | Tattoo culture under the spotlight

When singh ji says, for some people ego is behind the decision to get a tattoo,  I do not disagree.. 

*However,* Gurbani does not even mention the word tattoo. *So the argument against tattoos cannot be Gurbani based, but rather based on our understanding of the connection between ego and loss of spiritual center.  Not on tattoos. *And false spirituality can be just as damaging to finding a one's spiritual center as tattoos.  Of course discussions of the dangers of ego can be and are Gurbani based. 

Is the problem tattoos? Or is the problem ego? from one who does not have a tattoo but does have an ego.


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 6, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> *Back to tattoos  the topic of the thread. *Though I cannot resist wondering about "inner tangles" nonetheless,
> 
> From BBC online In the past, tattoos used to be mainly a badge of belonging and were generally the preserve of armed forces personnel, bikers and tribes. But they are now used to express individuality and can range from the small dolphin on the ankle to huge montages of a fan's favourite pop group, or even tattoos covering most of the body.
> 
> ...


 
First a definition of a ritual that is completely misleading gets presented to debunk tattoos are not rituals. Then this 4 scenario cases are presented to say a person can perform rituals and still find liberation, but this gets debunked by Gurbani. And now it's down to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji the word tattoo does not come up, so tattoos argument is not Gurbani based. This is completely ridiculous, anyone with even a little bit of spirituality can see how ridiculous that statements is. Gurbani clearly says stop performing these rituals liberation is not found in them, but still people want to indulge into them. Anyone that wants to keep performing this ritual can go right ahead. It's not my concern and my problem. The facts have been presented and if anyone else has anything important to say I'll reply otherwise it's a waste of time going around in circles. I'll leave you with this shabad to contemplate over. 

GAUREE, FIRST MEHL: By Guru.s Grace,
one comes to understand, and then, the account is settled. In each and every heart is the Name of the Immaculate Lord; He is
my Lord and Master. || 1 || Without the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, no one is emancipated. See this, and reflect upon it.
Even though you may perform hundreds of thousands of rituals, without the Guru, there is only darkness. || 1 || Pause ||
What can you say, to one who is blind and without wisdom? Without the Guru, the Path cannot be seen. How can anyone
proceed? || 2 || He calls the counterfeit genuine, and does not know the value of the genuine. The blind man is known as an
appraiser; this Dark Age of Kali Yuga is so strange! || 3 || The sleeper is said to be awake, and those who are awake are like
sleepers. The living are said to be dead, and no one mourns for those who have died. || 4 || One who is coming is said to be
going, and one who is gone is said to have come. That which belongs to others, he calls his own, but he has no liking for that
which is his. || 5 || That which is sweet is said to be bitter, and the bitter is said to be sweet. One who is imbued with the
Lord.s Love is slandered . his is what I have seen in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. || 6 || He serves the maid, and does not
see his Lord and Master. Churning the water in the pond, no butter is produced. || 7 || One who understands the meaning of
this verse is my Guru. O Nanak, one who knows his own self, is infinite and incomparable. || 8 || He Himself is All-pervading;​He Himself misleads the people. By Guru.s Grace, one comes to understand, that God is contained in all. || 9 || 2 || 18 || ang 229


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## spnadmin (Oct 6, 2008)

Singh ji

One thing you are right about -- the discussion has been going in circles.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Oct 6, 2008)

Singh said:


> Gurbani clearly says *stop performing these rituals* liberation is not found in them, but still people want to indulge into them.


where does in Gurbani does it say "stop performing rituals"??
I want to see.




> The facts have been presented



No they have not been presented so far. The shabad at the end of your post does not say "Stop performing rituals"


----------



## BhagatSingh (Oct 6, 2008)

Since Singh ji hasn't presented his definition of ritual.
Let me post this one again.

A ritual is a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value, the performance of which is usually prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community by religious or political laws because of the perceived efficacy of those actions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual
the best definition of ritual i have found.

So is a tattoo "a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value"?


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Oct 9, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> One thing you are right about -- the discussion has been going in circles.


 
I totally agree Aad ji, after the facts were presented it did start going around in circels. Like Bhagat Singh presenting the useless definition again.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *aad0002* 
_Singh ji_

_With all due respect -- I would really not want to post anymore in this thread -- except now you have said,_

_Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter. _

_How do you come to this conclusion? Of course actions affect one's soul! However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?_

Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs.


Quote:
However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?
Listening.Shiva, Brahma
and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. 

Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 9 || Listening.truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom. Listening.take your
cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage. Listening.reading and reciting, honor is obtained. Listening.intuitively​
grasp the essence of meditation. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 10 || ang 3


SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like
the unwanted bride decorating her body. Her Husband Lord does not come to her bed; day after day, she grows more and
more miserable. She does not attain the Mansion of His Presence; she does not find the door to His House. || 1 || O Siblings
of Destiny, meditate on the Naam with one-pointed mind. Remain united with the Society of the Saints; chant the Name of the​Lord, and find peace. || 1 || Pause || ang 31


SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation
and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within. You may perform religious rituals, and still never
obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord. *Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name*​*of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind.* || 1 || ang 33


SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The world is polluted with the filth of
egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. This filth of egotism cannot be washed
away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines. Performing all sorts of rituals, people are smeared with​twice as much filth. This filth is not removed by studying. Go ahead, and ask the wise ones. || 1 || ang39

what Aad ji said:
However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul? 

If all rituals are renounced then Gurbani is not used like a ritual. Then the person is attuned to Gurbani and the Sikh has devotion and understanding.

Also to clear something else up when i said, 
Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs. 
This was a reply to Aad ji's questioning on how i came to the conclusion that some Sikhs think that the exterior body does not matter.


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2008)

Singh ji

Please take your time and re-read my comments. I did not ask the question that you think I asked. Thanx.


----------



## Archived_Member4 (Oct 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *aad0002*
> 
> 
> _Singh ji_
> ...





> Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter. But this is not true, for in Japji Sahib on ang 4 it clearly says one's actions affect the soul.
> 
> When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty, water can
> wash away the dirt. When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine, soap can wash them clean. But when the intellect is
> ...


 
The reason why I presented these shabads:

When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty, water can
wash away the dirt. When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine, soap can wash them clean. But when the intellect is
stained and polluted by sin, it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name. *Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;*
*actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul. You shall harvest what you plant.* O Nanak, by the Hukam of
God.s Command, we come and go in reincarnation. || 20 || ang 4

These shabads was presented because as some do say what one does with the exterior body does not really matter. The shabad in bold abolish this statement. 


GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause
|| *Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call*
*them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain.* || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many
rituals? Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 || ang 324

The shabad in bold has already been explained and the results can be seen in the pervious pages. I would also like to point out compassion is a virtue, for Bhagat Kabir is saying a person who loves his/her body and tries different looks does not have virtue.

*Through various rituals, one does not find release. Without*
*virtue, one is sent to the City of **Death**.*
One will not have this world or the next; committing sinful mistakes, one comes to regret and repent in the end. He has neither
spiritual wisdom or meditation; neither Dharmic faith mor meditation. Without the Name, how can one be fearless? How can he
understand egotistical pride? I am so tired . how can I get there? This ocean has no bottom or end. I have no loving
companions, whom I can ask for help. O Nanak, crying out, .Beloved, Beloved., we are united with the Uniter. He who
separated me, unites me again; my love for the Guru is infinite. || 37 || ang 935

The shabad in bold here are very clear, a person does not find release through various rituals and without virtue one does not find release. Now the pervious shabad says a person who loves his body and try’s different looks is not virtuous and is perfoming riuals. So now one can come to a conclusion that person B while perfoming these rituals (tattoos) has no virtue and will not find release from this world. Attach yourself to the naam and one will find release.


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2008)

Singhji

Re-read the scenarios and think about the points I am making. You are posting shabads that are incidentally related to the issues I raised. Bye for now.


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## Archived_Member4 (Oct 9, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Singhji
> 
> Re-read the scenarios and think about the points I am making. You are posting shabads that are incidentally related to the issues I raised. Bye for now.


 

Aad ji, 
The shabads are not incidentally related, your scenario B has a flaw in it and Gurbani point's the mistake out.


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2008)

These lyrics by Judy Collins are dedicated to anyone who has a tattoo or more than one tattoo,  and later on found that God, the Inner Knower and the Searcher of Hearts, dwells within. And then was spiritually transformed. 

*Angel on My Side*

      Words and Music by Judy Collins 
      Universal Music Corp. (ASCAP)/ The Wildflowers Company (ASCAP)
      (Administered by Universal Music Corp.)

There was a time when the clocks all stopped 
        When the world just went away,
        I didn't know if it was night or day.
        I didn't know if there were clouds or fire in the sky,
        I didn't wanna live if I could die.
        Somewhere down the line I found myself up on that road,
        Where the devil led me, I would go.
        I had sold my soul for pleasure, 
        Thinkin' it would last,
        All my hopes had vanished in the past.
         Lost, I was lost like a child in the dark,
        Driftin' away with the tide.
        God only knows how I made it back home.
        I must have an angel on my side. 
In the mornin' I'd wake up and shake my weary head,
        Wonder where I'd been and what I'd said.
        Was I on the River Styx for all eternity?
        Would I drown forever in the sea?
        Why did anyone keep livin', what was there to find?
        I wanted just a little peace of mind. 
Lost, I was lost like a child in the dark,
        Driftin' away with the tide.
        God only knows how I made it back home.
        I must have an angel on my side. 
Never         had a flash of lightnin' comin' right at me,
        One day I just know I woke up free.
        The day was breakin', I was         livin', 
        I couldn't tell you why,
     First I laughed and then I         learned to cry.
      Somethin' in my heart was         sayin' you can reach the sky,
        You just gotta live until you die.
       Lost, I was lost like a child in the dark, 
        Driftin' away with the tide.
        God only knows how I made it back home.
        I must have an angel on my side.
        I must have an angel,
        I must have an angel,
        I must have an angel on my side.


Sat nam ji


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## spnadmin (Oct 10, 2008)

It is too wonderful!

ਗੋਂਡ ॥ 
gonadd ||
Gond:

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਤਾਰਿ ਲੇ ਰਾਮਾ ਤਾਰਿ ਲੇ ॥ 
mo ko thaar lae raamaa thaar lae ||
Carry me across, O Lord, carry me across.


ਮੈ ਅਜਾਨੁ ਜਨੁ ਤਰਿਬੇ ਨ ਜਾਨਉ ਬਾਪ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਬਾਹ ਦੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
mai ajaan jan tharibae n jaano baap beethulaa baah dhae ||1|| rehaao ||
I am ignorant, and I do not know how to swim. O my Beloved Father, please give me Your arm. ||1||Pause||


   ਨਰ ਤੇ ਸੁਰ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਤ ਨਿਮਖ ਮੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਿਖਲਾਈ ॥ 
nar thae sur hoe jaath nimakh mai sathigur budhh sikhalaaee ||
I have been transformed from a mortal being into an angel, in an instant; the True Guru has taught me this.

  
 ਨਰ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿ ਸੁਰਗ ਕਉ ਜੀਤਿਓ ਸੋ ਅਵਖਧ ਮੈ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
nar thae oupaj surag ko jeethiou so avakhadhh mai paaee ||1||
Born of human flesh, I have conquered the heavens; such is the medicine I was given. ||1||
  

 ਜਹਾ ਜਹਾ ਧੂਅ ਨਾਰਦੁ ਟੇਕੇ ਨੈਕੁ ਟਿਕਾਵਹੁ ਮੋਹਿ ॥ 
jehaa jehaa dhhooa naaradh ttaekae naik ttikaavahu mohi ||
Please place me where You placed Dhroo and Naarad, O my Master.
  

 ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਵਿਲੰਬਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਜਨ ਉਧਰੇ ਨਾਮੇ ਕੀ ਨਿਜ ਮਤਿ ਏਹ ॥੨॥੩॥ 
thaerae naam avilanb bahuth jan oudhharae naamae kee nij math eaeh ||2||3||
*With the Support of Your Name, so many have been saved; this is Naam Dayv's understanding. ||2||3||*


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## thedal85 (Oct 12, 2008)

that's pretty disturbing I just came across this site cuz I was looking for desi/sikh tattoos mostly for the lion.I'm still in contemplation of getting a tattoo but after  seeing the link for the idiot with Gurbani on the back I think I'll stay far away from religion and repersenting Sikhi all toghter cuz it is contradicting because our bodies are supposed to be our temple, a gift from God etc.


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## KulwantK (Oct 16, 2008)

Let us remember what Guru Nanak said, before we rush to judge one another:
"If you cannot see God in all, you cannot see God at all."
Wahe Guru
Kulwant


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## pk70 (Oct 16, 2008)

KulwantK said:


> Let us remember what Guru Nanak said, before we rush to judge one another:
> "If you cannot see God in all, you cannot see God at all."
> Wahe Guru
> Kulwant



*Kulwant K Ji
Well come back and congratulations on health recovery !*
*With all due respect, I have to say that these words are not of Guru Nanak, obviously Bhajan Yogi used to quote it; if I am wrong, kindly provide me "ang(page) of Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji?* Thanks.


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## spnadmin (Oct 16, 2008)

Actually,

Nanak V did say something like that -- not exactly.... (Ang 51)

        ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
        kahu naanak gur bharam kaattiaa sagal breham beechaar ||4||25||95||
               Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||

And also, (Ang 897)

ਜਿਸੁ ਭੇਟਤ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ 
jis bhaettath mittai abhimaan ||
Meeting Him, egotistical pride is eradicated,
 
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਭੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
paarabreham sabh nadharee aavai kar kirapaa pooran bhagavaan ||1|| rehaao ||
and you will come to see the Supreme Lord God in all. The Perfect Lord God has showered His Mercy. ||1||Pause||

Granted not the same exact thing. But the idea is the same. That is what Yogi Bhajan was getting at, I think.


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## pk70 (Oct 16, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Actually,
> 
> Nanak V did say something like that -- not exactly.... (Ang 51)
> 
> ...



*aad ji
With due respect, the quote of Guru ji, you have given, doesn't translate  it as the quot stated above though Guru stresses HE permeates in all but doesn't say the way quote goes, I have problem with those who say their own words in the name of Guru ji.  It is just like" Naam Khumari Nanaka charee rahe din raat" idea resembles with Guru's idea but in this form, he never said that. Sorry to be in disagreement
*


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## spnadmin (Oct 16, 2008)

pk70 ji

It is OK to be in disagreement. No offense is ever taken.


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## KulwantK (Jun 29, 2009)

I do not hold it as a bad thing at all.  I have known many Sikhs with these, and they are wonderful people and great Sikhs!  God and Guru love you no matter what,  and if other people are judging you, perhaps they are the ones with some sort of difficulty.

People go on and on about tattooing not being natural, that it alters God's work of the body, and so on.  Well, if we are to carry this to its furthest stupidest extreme, then it is not natural to get braces on the teeth  if they are needed, so one cannot properly chew all one's life and suffer the consequences.

 It is not natural to wear corrective lenses for the eyes, so one goes blind and suffers through that.  It is not natural to wear clothing, so one will freeze in the winter.  

It is not natural to cut one's nails, so they will grow and break in a painful manner, but, oh, we are supposed to suffer through all these things because that's God's design- 

oh, it's God's design that we are to suffer all through our lives, and be miserable, and sickly, and cold all the time, and so on and so forth?  Sounds like the extreme form of Jainism, which, if you study it carefully enough, has nothing to do with God but everything to do with Ego, when you are supposed to suffer through all these lousy things, including the never brushing of your teeth, because, oh heaven forbid, you might actually kill some bacteria, so you have rotten teeth and horrible breath all your life,  because then it shows What A Pious Person You Are, and Aren't We All Supposed to Be In Awe of You.  Pure Ego, simple as that.  

Extremism in any form is not balanced, and one of the main things about Sikhism has to do with Balance in your life.  You balance the physical with the spiritual, and by doing so you can actually, amazingly enough, begin to lead a happy life, and ideally, inspire others to do the same.

Someone dissing you simply because you happen to have a couple of tattoos on your body is really rather petty of them, and not at all loving, the way that God is loving, and that is one of the things the Gurus want us to remember- To See God At All, You Must See God In All, which is what I say to anyone who whines and complains about tattoos.  There are plenty more important things to get worked up over.  Wahe Guru!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

imho..tatoos are like Graffittee...some love it..others loathe it..(especially the owners of the grafitee stained buildings)..OUR BODY is NOT OURS TO OWN..we are just LEASEHOLDERS !!!:}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}:


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## tony (Jun 29, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> imho..tatoos are like Graffittee...some love it..others loathe it..(especially the owners of the grafitee stained buildings)..OUR BODY is NOT OURS TO OWN..we are just LEASEHOLDERS !!!:}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}:


Might be true Gyani ji but some graffitee is now classed as art and there is an now a display of such art in a gallery in Bristol, saw a bit of it and it looks quite good, 
And imho it doesnt matter what we do to our bodies they dont go with you they are just absorbed back into the ground ready to be reused by the next spirit, Gods recycling process.


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## KulwantK (Jun 30, 2009)

Sat Nam, everyone;
Other things besides tattoos and graffitti to get worked up over could include the ridiculous state of education for everyone all over the world.  Why is it that a priviledged few get to go to really amazing universities and hopefully get very good educations, and the rest have to either work and not go to school at all, or end up having to drop out.  (I do not know this for sure, but have heard that much of higher education in countries like Germany is free.)  How is it that so many children the world over are dying because of malnutrition and no one seems to really care.  Why is it that so many in Europe, America and parts of Asia are starting to talk about sustainable buildings and citystyles, but all those supposedly well educated people who went to the wonderful universities to learn about such things, as well as learning about medicine, are not talking about how to bring all these great ideas to places like villages in India?  Maybe they have been, and I have not heard about it.  

...And here we are quibbling about graffitti and tattoos.  Are we going to start arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin next?


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## Lee (Jul 1, 2009)

KulwantK said:


> Sat Nam, everyone;
> Other things besides tattoos and graffitti to get worked up over could include the ridiculous state of education for everyone all over the world. Why is it that a priviledged few get to go to really amazing universities and hopefully get very good educations, and the rest have to either work and not go to school at all, or end up having to drop out. (I do not know this for sure, but have heard that much of higher education in countries like Germany is free.) How is it that so many children the world over are dying because of malnutrition and no one seems to really care. Why is it that so many in Europe, America and parts of Asia are starting to talk about sustainable buildings and citystyles, but all those supposedly well educated people who went to the wonderful universities to learn about such things, as well as learning about medicine, are not talking about how to bring all these great ideas to places like villages in India? Maybe they have been, and I have not heard about it.
> 
> ...And here we are quibbling about graffitti and tattoos. Are we going to start arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin next?


 

When we look at things like the state a country is in, it is really the goverment of the country that we should be looking at.

If the poor are not fed and adequatly looked after is it correct to call to those sons and daughters who have studied abroad and not come home, or is it better to look at the goverment.

Why seek an education abroad?  Look to the goverment for all of these answers.


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## tony (Jul 1, 2009)

Kulwantk ji 
My wife was on about sponsering a child in africa, I would much rather help in the punjab, do you know of any schemes that do this, I also read about a small short term loan scheme to help the farmers in the rural areas but cant remember where I read it, if any one could help with information for either schemes I would love to hear from you. Sorry Antonia ji a little bit off topic but as someone brought it up I couldnt think of a better place to ask. 
Tony


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## spnadmin (Jul 1, 2009)

tony ji

That is fine. Let us know how things progress :star:


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## KulwantK (Jul 2, 2009)

Sat Nam, Ji, not to worry about being off topic.  I, too, would rather do good works starting at home.  Indeed, there is a very old saying, "Charity begins at home.", and this is true.  One is reminded of how the stewards and stewardesses on the airline flights, when they are explaining how to use the oxygen mask, always tell the passengers to put their own mask on first, before attempting to assist someone else with theirs.  The same is true here.

I beg everyone's forgiveness if I have been impatient, rude or snappish in my comments.  My apologies.

We judge ourselves and each other all the time.  We judge people on the way they are dressed, whether or not they are wearing makeup, jewelry, what sorts of shoes they wear, how they walk, move, how they talk, and whether or not they have tattoos, and if so, what sort of tattoo they have.

It is a most interesting phenomenon; we are told over and over again to not judge each other, and yet almost from birth we do.

Even though we as Sikhs are told that there is no such thing as caste, we still deal with it.  Look at the want ads in newspapers for brides and grooms: how many say things like, "Caste No Bar" or, on the other side of the coin, "Jat Sikh parents searching for.....".

In Europe and the Americas people still look at each other and figure out to which class someone belongs.  It is shown by their dress, eating habits, speech patterns and what their education level may be, as well as by what job they may hold and where and if they went to University.

Yet God and Guru does not judge us by such things.  We are all loved equally by God, no matter what.

We have been given two priceless gifts beyond measure; Ceativity and Free-Will Choice.

We can do things no other can do.  You do not see a tree driving a car or painting a canvas do you?  No, you see trees doing tree things.  Have you ever seen a badger draw up architectural plans for a temple? You do not see cows going scuba diving, you see ithem doing cow things.  Yet we can do all these amazing things and more.

This is one reason why Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us the Kara; it is a reminder, among other things, that we are to do Good Works with our hands.  

We are not born with Karas on our wrists.  Ultimately, it is our decision to wear one, along with the other 4 items, each with its meaning.

We come into this world naked; no clothes and  no coherent speech.  We are absolutely helpless on our own and must depend on others to assist us in learning how to make our way in this world.

It has been said that to get a tattoo is altering God's design, and it is not right to do that, that it is not natural.  

It is not natural to wear clothing, build a house, build and drive a car, get one's teeth cleaned at the dentist, or use a knife and fork with which to eat.  It is not natural to use a cup or mug to drink water or chai.  It is not natural to have a doctor or midwife present at the birth of a child.

These things are learned.

So, in the purely natural state, it is not natural to engage in any of the activities we associate with not only living the lives we do, but it could not comsidered natural to live even as basically as tribespeople do.  

They do not have cars; many walk or ride horses or donkeys.  

Riding something is not natural; it is learned.

Squatting on the dirt floor of a hut and making a crude fire with which to cook meat is not natural; making fires and cooking are not natural; they are learned.

So where is it that we learn to judge each other all the time, even while we are being told by all sorts of authorities we should not be judging each other?

It is interesting that we totally embrace some avenues of learning, and completely reject others- and oftenly, in rejecting, reject the people who have chosen those avenues, judging those people to be "idiots" or "narrow-minded fools" and other such things, oftentimes simply because they look different, or do not wear their hair the way we do, or speak a different language than us, or pray in a different way, or express their devotion in a different manner.

So, back to tattoos:  how might you or I look at someone who has "Wahe Guru" tattooed on their arm, as compared to someone who has "Mom" tattooed on their arm, as compared to someone who has the logo of a very loud Heavy Metal type rock band tattooed on their arm?  Think about that for a moment.  What do you think those tattoos say about the people who are wearing them?   When you have clearly identified, within yourself, exactly what your feelings are towards each of these examples, think about yourself; and get this: everyone with whom you come into contact is judging you!

We judge each other oftenly without even realizing it; the habit is so strong!  

Everything about you; the way you look, your clothes, your food, the way you eat it, your speech, your actions; everything is being judged by others.  Also, almost everything about you is the result of a choice or a series of choices you have made.

You choose the clothes you wear, the food you eat, the way you eat it, how well you take care of your body, your health, your home, your environment, your education and your attitude.

A pertinent question could be posed:  What is your attitude towards ________________(fill in the blank with any subject you choose) and how did you come by it?

So, back to tattoos:  What, if any, attitude do you have towards someone who has a tattoo?  How have you come to have the attitude you do towards that individual?

Do you see that individual as an "idiot" or do you see them as someone who is a brother or sister of yours who happened to make a particular choice?  Are you judging them?  Or perhaps you are judging their choice?

Compare how your various attitudes towards things and people make you feel.  Some attitudes definitely feel better than others!

See how the various judgements you make have you feeling.  Does it really feel all that great to judge?  So often, when we are judging, what we are really doing is attempting to make ourselves feel better about ourselves by putting someone else "down".  Does that really work in the long run?  Is it really a compassionate thing to do?

So the next time you see someone who has a tattoo, think about these things.  Then think about all the other things and concerns I have brought up- education, health, and all those sorts of matters.

Then ask yourself what your real priorities are in life.


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## amrit.saggu (Mar 10, 2010)

Lionchild said:


> Just because you can, does it mean it's right? It seems to be deeply imbedded in the human spirit: "if we can get away with it, it's ok" One reason why the planet is so f---ed up and pouuted. And we are trying to make our religion better when following what the SGGS and our guru's have said, is suddenly going against it ok?



Our planet is not messed up. Everything happens in divine will. Guru ji teaches that there is no good or bad, it is only a matter of perspective. Like Bhagat Kabir teaches Aval Allah noor upaya, Kudrat ke sab bandhey...if we decide to label good and bad, we are labelling God himself. Wake up people, lets look at the bigger picture. 
and to whomever states "having gurbani tattooed on your body then having intercourse is disrespect"...it may not be my place to say but I believe intercourse is very natural and we have turned it into taboo through social conditioning. Also, a Sikh strives to have Naam in each breath, and to keep naam in ones heart at all times. Why would this be any different during these so call "taboo" times?

God bless
Amrit


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## amrit.saggu (Mar 10, 2010)

KulwantK said:


> Sat Nam, Ji, not to worry about being off topic.  I, too, would rather do good works starting at home.  Indeed, there is a very old saying, "Charity begins at home.", and this is true.  One is reminded of how the stewards and stewardesses on the airline flights, when they are explaining how to use the oxygen mask, always tell the passengers to put their own mask on first, before attempting to assist someone else with theirs.  The same is true here.
> 
> I beg everyone's forgiveness if I have been impatient, rude or snappish in my comments.  My apologies.
> 
> ...




That is so beautiful Kulwant Kaur. Thanks for your wonderful insight; so very true.


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## Roop Kaur (Mar 10, 2010)

I think that in constantly fighting about whether these sorts of things are right or wrong is kind of lame ... Waheguru will love us nevertheless- whether or not we have a tattoo! Having a tattoo is not going to bring you any closer to Waheguru, nor will it pull you away. 

However, I just quickly want to give my little spin on it ... If the purpose of the tattoo is to inflate ones Ego (Ahankar), which, as most of you probably know is one of the 5 evils of Sikhism, then I am strictly against it. If however, it is an Ik Onkar, or a Khanda, that has tattoo'd on an easily seen part of your body, like your hand or something, which will remind you of god throughout the day, I don't see any problem with it. It'd serve a similar purpose as a Karaa, please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Although, I was born into a Sikh family, they are not so religious. Nor am I, this is something I am working on at the moment, and am still hungry for greater knowledge, but from what I understand so far, there was my little opinion. Sorry, if I have annoyed anyone, my apologies in advance.



God Bless


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## jasbirkaleka (Mar 11, 2010)

Dear CaramelChocolate, the fact is that God"s person is a naked being with hair allover his body and nails which never stop growing.Is it not an act of sacrilidge and against the will of God to wear clothes.:woohoo:


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## findingmyway (Oct 6, 2010)

show offs often feel less.

those who feel the guru's pyaar often have no need of such adornments and distractions icecreamkudi


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## team verde (Jan 14, 2011)

When it boils down to it tattoos are just art (decoration) on one's body. But there can be so much more to it-meaning. It can be a reminder of one's faith, a symbol of hope, and so much more. 

I do have a tattoo and was told it was wrong to have one. 

However, no one but yourself can decide what is good or bad (in so many words, as shakespeare would say) 

I know lots of sikhs who disapprove of my tattoo, I really believe Society has a lot to do with how sikhs (and others) in general view tattoos, like conditioning and learned behaviors. I know lots of people who look down at people with tattoos-and look down on me. 

And if you think about it, humans are animals, we evolved throughout the years, we still have the same instinct of animals, but have been blessed with reason. We strive to be above instinct; hence rules and society.

But back to tattoos: all in all, there is nothing wrong with getting tattoos, its up to you to decide it is bad or good. Think of why you want it, not because others tell you what it is or isn't. Sometimes I wonder why people judge others, what gives anyone the right to? I mean you don't know what happened to that person or what lead to that person's decision...

Just thought it was important someone get this out there. :sippingcoffee:


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## spnadmin (Jan 15, 2011)

verde_team ji

Just my two cents.   Your own point of view is interesting and your opinion should be respected. Tattoos do not stand in the way of spiritual progress as a Sikh.




> ... Gurbani does not even mention the word tattoo. So the argument against tattoos cannot be Gurbani based, but rather based on our understanding of the connection between ego and loss of spiritual center. Not on tattoos. And false spirituality can be just as damaging to finding a one's spiritual center as tattoos. Of course discussions of the dangers of ego ...are Gurbani based.



But...Tattoos in a strict sense are not consistent with Sikh identity. The reasons have been explained at length by some thoughtful and reflective members writing on the thread, amidst a lot of emotionalism, which is unfortunate. For some reason, any discussion of tattoos are a lightening rod that attract almost as many sparks as the debate whether Sikhs may eat meat. I am always baffled by the intensity aimed at both topics.


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## SinghWeapon (Oct 20, 2011)

Some people get tattoos for show..and to be "coooool". Then theres other people who get tattoos that are of great signifigance to them, they get them for the reason of: perserving a message, remembering a certain event that took place, that when they look at themselves and see the tattoo, they are always reminded of it (whatever the tattoo may be). Your parents name...your family name..something that means alot to you..AN EVENT THAT HAPPENED THAT CHANGED YOUR LIFE FOREVER. For instance..if I had a tattoo on my chest of something very significant and important that I do not want to forget..everytime before I get into the shower, when looking in the mirror, id see that tattoo..and remember what it was that really was. Ya feel me?


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## Jatti94 (Nov 8, 2011)

CaramelChocolate said:


> this is because Sikhism teaches acceptance of God's will which is why Sikhs are not supposed to remove hait from any part of the body because hair grows, that is the way it is meant to be.



I was always taught this as a child and never got the nerve to question it aloud to anyone, however would cutting your nails not count?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 8, 2011)

Jatti94 said:


> I was always taught this as a child and never got the nerve to question it aloud to anyone, however would cutting your nails not count?


Jatti94 ji welcome to spn and your first post.

Your question is reasonable and worth asking.

It just occurred to me that may be I have a partial answer or some logic that I can share.

We have an eight year old dog.  We have to take him to the pet store to get his paw nails clipped.  I know any such thing will be unheard of in the farming dogs anywhere or wild dogs or dogs that have lot of ability to run around in open space.  So why so for dogs in homes and not in the wild or more free running ones?  The answer is that dogs in the wild or similar conditions have a natural activity which grinds these to right size when they run around.  Was it the case with human way way back?  Perhaps so.

Hence I find a parallel between our needs and others in the animal kingdom with similar needs.

I bet in certain professions and trades people working never cut their nails as these just naturally grind down.

 Mind you children without being taught get to bite their nails with  their teeth.  Some even cry if you ask to cut their nails.  So I don't  know if this is also instinctive.

So in a way when we got comfy domesticated, we needed to look after certain things and cutting nails is one of these. 

Hopefully it kind of makes sense.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## lionsingh (Dec 6, 2011)

I have  ik ong kar  tattooed on my right arm !!!  

Anyone want to tell me I will go to Hell or be reincarnated as a {censored}roach for that ?


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 6, 2011)

lionsingh said:


> I have  ik ong kar  tattooed on my right arm !!!
> 
> Anyone want to tell me I will go to Hell or be reincarnated as a {censored}roach for that ?



Lion Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Just for the clarification, there is no such thing as Hell nor reincarnation in Sikhi. I thought you knew that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 6, 2011)

lionsingh said:


> I have  ik ong kar  tattooed on my right arm !!!
> 
> Anyone want to tell me I will go to Hell or be reincarnated as a {censored}roach for that ?


Lion Singh veer ji Sikhs don't go to hell or heaven no matter what they do.  mundahug

They live through what they do here and some escape possible expected results either good or bad, in spite of what they do.  This is the mystery of life and it treats Sikhs no different than anyone else.  One can simply focus on good to reasonably expect better living but even then there is no guarantee but just a better chance to not get bad/hurtful results.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Sikhboy11 (Dec 9, 2011)

I feel that in today's society, we still try to keep sikhism at his most purest form which is obviously good but sikhism has become an opinated religion (not saying other religions aren't) but i feel nowadays people are not! moving with society, i mean 4000 odd years back then when sikhism was formed, of course no one cut their hair or even knew about tattoos but in this society it is hard for one to keep their hair because the world is changing, but with tattoos i feel that it is all down to why do you want it, do you want it to show off and have it as a fashion statement or do you really want it to show your love for sikhi if that is the case then ok fine do it it wouldnt be a sin you would just most probably feel guilt but i just feel that in today's life we make sikhism harder and harder to follow, just when you think finally there's something i can do to feel like sikhs can! fit in with today's society bamm! someone comes along and says "awh noo that's against the religion" and yet we wonder why nobody shows love for sikhism today, it is simply because you just cannot follow every rule of sikhism in today's society but if you do then may god grant you a seat in his kingdom because you truly deserve it!


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 9, 2011)

Sikhboy11 said:


> but i feel nowadays people are not! moving with society,_ i mean 4000 odd years back then when sikhism_ was formed, of course no one cut their hair or even knew about tattoos but in this society it is hard for one to keep their hair because the world is changing,


Sikhboy11 ji thanks for your post.  Can you please clarify the statement underlined about Sikhism 4000 years ago!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 10, 2011)

Sikhboy11 said:


> I feel that in today's society, we still try to keep sikhism at his most purest form which is obviously good but sikhism has become an opinated religion (not saying other religions aren't) but i feel nowadays people are not! moving with society, i mean 4000 odd years back then when sikhism was formed, of course no one cut their hair or even knew about tattoos but in this society it is hard for one to keep their hair because the world is changing, but with tattoos i feel that it is all down to why do you want it, do you want it to show off and have it as a fashion statement or do you really want it to show your love for sikhi if that is the case then ok fine do it it wouldnt be a sin you would just most probably feel guilt but i just feel that in today's life we make sikhism harder and harder to follow, just when you think finally there's something i can do to feel like sikhs can! fit in with today's society bamm! someone comes along and says "awh noo that's against the religion" and yet we wonder why nobody shows love for sikhism today, it is simply because you just cannot follow every rule of sikhism in today's society but if you do then may god grant you a seat in his kingdom because you truly deserve it!



Gurfatehji

A slightly Abrahamic view of sikhism here I find, and the time scale is closer than it is to Sikhi, are you sure you are not confusing Sikhism with an Abrahamic religion?

I think in the present day Sikhism is at is most impure, there are too many people coming along and saying 'aw no thats against religion' who have no idea what they are talking about and merely succeed in spreading more rituals and more traditions that are meaningless. 

Sikhism is not a religion that is based on guilt or sin, we all try our best to respect the essence of Creator in our heads, if we follow that line, we will have a connection with Creator, if we do not, We will be a slave to the five thieves, and that my friend is it,. no miracles, no hocus pocus, no wierd music while candles flicker, and suddenly, a miracle, the blind man can see, the cripple can walk, none of it, 

As for not following every rule in sikhi in todays society, why not? As it happens the most crucial rules are the invisible ones, honesty, love, compassion, truth, making yourself available to help others, keeping hair is not a 'rule' its something that happens to you when you are filled with spirit and connection, not something you do to gain entry to 'heaven', we do not stand in front of white bearded god and say, 'well I wore my turban, can I come in', 

We truly deserve NOTHING, we do what we do out of love, with no expectation of reward, no prize, no divine virgins, no ambrosia rice pudding, the only reward is knowing we are acting in consonance with creation, and that should be reward enough


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 10, 2011)

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.



> We truly deserve NOTHING, we do what we do out of love, with no  expectation of reward, no prize, no divine virgins, no ambrosia rice  pudding, the only reward is knowing we are acting in consonance with  creation, and that should be reward enough



Very well said. Only you could express this idea in such a succulent manner.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Dec 10, 2011)

dont you mean succint.... lol

or maybe you did mean succulent..... 

either way, you are too kind!


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