# If Everything Happens According To Hukam, Then Why Do We Pray?



## Searching (Aug 5, 2012)

Dear SPNers.I was going through this thread "Sikhism and Black Magic" in this forum when I read people say everything is hukam and one should not worry about going to babas or black magicians for benefit. 

One often comes around the work "Hukam" in Sikhism. I think it means God's will. If everything happens to his will then what is point in "Ardas".
Or does God change his will for those who pray?


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## Amarpal (Aug 5, 2012)

In our life, 'Hukam' works at micro level. What ever we do, the response from the 'Sat' comes through 'Hukam'. 

When we pray, we seek the blessings of the 'Sat' a for successful out come of some act of ours. The cosmic forces may reinforce our efforts which we have made to achieve the desired end, if and only if, that desired end is part of the mission of life of the person, else it gets ignored. This way only what is preordained, one gets.

Thus prayers are to reinforce our effort for the desired outcome.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## Ishna (Aug 5, 2012)

Searching ji

I asked a very similar question myself here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36514-petitionary-prayer-and-hukam-2.html 

You might find something of value there (although the thread went a bit wonky towards the end!).


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## Harry Haller (Aug 5, 2012)

> One often comes around the work "Hukam" in Sikhism. I think it means God's will



I would describe it more as God's suggestion, in line with his will, whether we take it or not defines us as manmukh or Gurmukh, in my opinion


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## Kamala (Aug 5, 2012)

Why not pray? If you are really a Sikh that would be a really funny question to ask since all of our Guru jis cannot stress how important it is to pray!


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## Harry Haller (Aug 5, 2012)

Prayer is for the self, not Creator. 

Reasons for praying could be for more grace, strength, wisdom, perception in order to deal with a situation. 

Creator does not need prayers, they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, maybe good prayers could be added to that!

I see no point personally in praying, for the very reason that you either follow Hukam, or you don't. If you don't, then its a bit rich to go whinning back to Creator requesting divine intervention just because you would rather behave like a manmukh. 

Our Gurus stressed the importance of understanding Bani and living Bani, I would say truthful living is more important than prayer.

For the record, Kamalaji, I do not pray


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## Taranjeet singh (Aug 5, 2012)

Searching said:


> Dear SPNers.I was going through this thread "Sikhism and Black Magic" in this forum when I read people say everything is hukam and one should not worry about going to babas or black magicians for benefit.
> 
> One often comes around the work "Hukam" in Sikhism. I think it means God's will. If everything happens to his will then what is point in "Ardas".
> Or does God change his will for those who pray?



It would amount to Fatalism or determinism . However, Complacent fatalism has become a fashion.

God has all the powers and sikhi envisages His grace as an important element of theology and philosophy. In fact, sikhism is called, sometimes, as a religion of Grace.

Nothing stops Him to extend the grace where it is needed. Prayer is the media that satisfies human beings that they have done their best to be come eligible for unfettered powers of Grace of God. It is to me is a plain logic as to why we do Ardas or prayer.

Tenth Master has also stated, though I would need a quote to support it and that I have none right now, that he listens to the poor[needy] quickly.

Yes, it is true that everything happens as His plan but He can also bestow grace upon us and provide temporary accommodation. None can question His authority. His grace is also His will and Prayer strengthens us only.
 I do agree with Kamala ji to this extent.

Lastly as per accepted theory of Karma , as per sikhism, He has the powers modify the effect of Karmas as well. In a way this theory is peculiar to sikhism only. He can eliminate the karmas that have become the cause of trouble for the individual. It is only He who knows as to how this works.My views only.


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## Searching (Aug 5, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Searching ji
> 
> I asked a very similar question myself here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36514-petitionary-prayer-and-hukam-2.html
> 
> You might find something of value there (although the thread went a bit wonky towards the end!).



Thank you Ishna ji for the directing me to that discussion.

Maybe it is that everything happens according to his hukam and when we pray it is His hukam that we are following?
Or the God is merciful and listens to and grants us our wishes sometimes.

There cannot be a definitive answer to it I think. As Sikhs all we can do is to believe in and put our faith in bani.

I think the only correct form of praying would be where we ask for things recommended in the Bani and not materialistic things or even long life or happiness etc. 
But when you have a dieing relative it is not possible sometimes.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 5, 2012)

We all pray, that includes you Harryji!!
Praying is when we liase and converse with creator and creation.

When you are speaking to that other voice within you- that in my opinion is praying.

To me praying doesn't mean on my knees or bum with hands together and reciting my needs and wants to the almighty.


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## Embers (Aug 6, 2012)

Searching said:


> Thank you Ishna ji for the directing me to that discussion.
> 
> Maybe it is that everything happens according to his hukam and when we pray it is His hukam that we are following?
> Or the God is merciful and listens to and grants us our wishes sometimes.
> ...


Hello Searching Ji
My personal opinion is that it can be helpful to pray for the relief of suffering of others. Albeit a material need it is also a spiritual and compassionate wish. Similar to giving to charity to relieve others of their hardship. 

What does praying do? It changes our mind set and with the change of our mind set there is a change in our actions and the way we interact with the world. Sometimes praying for those who have wronged me has helped me to look them in the face with love and compassion. I feel stronger and it is through prayer with the Lord that I have found that love and compassion. 

Likewise I cannot change nature, ageing and death of the body is natural (this is Hukam - that mother nature will change), but I can face people who are suffering with a little more compassion, courage and understanding when my mind has been turned to Waheguru.

So prayer for me is more than a action which comes to an end when I think of something different,  rather it is an investment which trickles its rewards during my day. The reward is compassion which I can communicate in my actions towards others during the day.

This is my view, but I hope it offers a perspective on the question of prayer.


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## Searching (Aug 6, 2012)

> This is my view, but I hope it offers a perspective on the question of prayer.



Yes it does Ambers ji it offers a beautiful perspective.


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## itsmaneet (Aug 6, 2012)

This questions is like - 

_Why do we breathe if we are to die someday  _


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## Searching (Aug 6, 2012)

> Why do we breathe if we are to die someday



Really ?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 6, 2012)

Its HUKM to lift your LEG to walk..which LEG is CHOICE...he he No body can walk without lifting his leg - right or left according to choice and free will..BUT thats HUKM at work...IF you walk..lift the leg...:grinningsingh:


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## itsmaneet (Aug 7, 2012)

Searching said:


> Really ?


Damn Really .....

We know we gonna die smday (It's a Hukam) still we breathe. Why don't you stop your breathes & follow the Hukam (wait till death....)

Similarly, to pray is our duty & Hukam of Waheguru prevails ....


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## Embers (Aug 7, 2012)

itsmaneet said:


> Damn Really .....
> 
> We know we gonna die smday (It's a Hukam) still we breathe. Why don't you stop your breathes & follow the Hukam (wait till death....)
> 
> Similarly, to pray is our duty & Hukam of Waheguru prevails ....



Why follow a duty? 
I am interested in your opinion


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## Harry Haller (Aug 7, 2012)

itsmaneet said:


> Damn Really .....
> 
> We know we gonna die smday (It's a Hukam) still we breathe. Why don't you stop your breathes & follow the Hukam (wait till death....)
> 
> Similarly, to pray is our duty & Hukam of Waheguru prevails ....



Hukam has not outlined your death, fate may have, but not Hukam.

Although Hukam can be used to assist in the date, for instance, if I take lots of drugs, and sleep with lots of women, that date gets closer, if I also eat rubbish and drink a lot, closer still, if I make my income by dubious means, and I worry a lot about the consequences, closer still, if I start doing crystal meth and walking naked down highways (for our american readers), even closer. 

However, if I eat sensibly, stay clear of drugs, treat women as sisters, mothers and daughters, make my income honestly, etc etc, that date gets further away, unless, I am put in a situation by Creation in which the value of my life is negated by my actions (as per S Kalekaji), then I am following Hukam, planting good seeds, enjoying the fruits. Combined with a state of Naam, I would suggest to you all that this is the true meaning of the word happiness.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 7, 2012)

S





> imilarly, to pray is our duty & Hukam of Waheguru prevails ....



This sounds like fate and ritual hand in hand. What happened to understanding, learning, studying, thinking, indeed everything that the Gurus replaced fate, karma and ritual with


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## Embers (Aug 7, 2012)

In my view everything is Hukham:



> ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਪਰਾਣ ਹੈ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ  ॥੨॥
> जिस के जीअ पराण है मनि वसिऐ सुखु होइ ॥२॥
> Jis ke jī▫a parāṇ hai man vasi▫ai sukẖ ho▫e. ||2||
> He is the Giver of the soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life; when He dwells within the mind, there is peace. ||2||
> ...


 Page 18.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=18&L=8&id=757

There is however ego and maya, which give the impression that *not all* is Hukham. The ego assumes we are taking actions and whilst there is the belief that we are the doer then there is ego. Ego is the idea that there is a doer seperate from His Hukham. None the less ego can lead one to the Lord.
Here is an example of ego and maya:



> Page 8, Line 12
> ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
> करमी आपो आपणी के नेड़ै के दूरि ॥
> Karmī āpo āpṇī ke neṛai ke ḏūr.
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 7, 2012)

Ambersji

On the one hand, I think you are incorrect, I do not think everything is in Hukam. 

However I do love your description, 





> There is however ego and maya, which give the impression that not all is Hukham.



I operate via the 'litmus test', ie if it passes the litmus test, it must be ok, multiple marriages for the Gurus, Sakhis showing the Gurus behaving in an unGuru like manner, all fail the litmus test and need no debate or proving. My current definition of Hukam is not hugely satisfactory, it covers me, but not my head or feet! 

But your line offers some hope to my head and feet, I think there is a few more inches to be gained from contemplating this, thank you


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## Embers (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks Harry Ji
I am sure there will be differences in opinion, simply because Hukam/free will etc are such an important and personal topic. They are personal because we have to account for our own action, and this is very personal. (Do you like my circular logic lol).

My observation is ego is thought. It is thought process. When the thought process ceases (if only for 1 minute) there is still action. The action in this time is not based on thought, at least not the calculating loud type of thought which we may 'hear' in our heads.

The thoughtless action is in fact hukham in my opinion, as during that time one does not act from ego (because ego is thought). Instead one acts from a more refined selfless state of awareness.

The mamukh is determined by his mind-ego. Here is a quote I have just this minute found (author's opinion I assume):



> Hence, a Manmukh is a material being (egoistic or unenlightened person) as opposed to a Spiritual Being, who does not have natural inclination for Gurmat and Spirituality - he is the mind-willed. People with such materialistic outlook — referred to as Manmukhs in the Gurbani — assert that everlasting happiness is attainable only in acquisition of sense-objects, persuing passions, etc. In other words, a Manmukh is ruled by his conditioned and corrupt sense-blind mind instead of Soul Consciousness.


 http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart39.htm

and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manmukh



> a Manmukh is ruled by his conditioned by pleasure of his five senses and his mind. Simply stated, a Manmukh is an ego-centric person whose actions are controlled by the following urges and desires: lust, anger, greed, material attachment, self-conceit, envy and stubborn mindedness, with their numerous variations.



 It is fun to talk about this. I hope Seeking Ji doesn't find it adds confusion. I wonder if I should be posting this in the other thread or I will be in for it :noticemunda: :angryyoungkaur:


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