# Sikh Millitant Groups Seeking Volunteers From US India



## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2010)

Sikh Terror Outfits Seeking Volunteers from US

Sikh terror outfits seeking volunteers from US, India:  Report - India - The Times of India

CHANDIGARH: Security around top leaders and vital installations in  Punjab has been increased following intelligence reports of  Pakistan-based Sikh separatist groups trying to recruit youth from the  US and India to revive terrorism in the state. 

 Reports of a meeting between officials of Pakistan's Inter-Services  Intelligence (ISI) and Babbar Khalsa International (BKI) chief Wadhawa  Singh in December has raised concerns among security agencies in the  state.  

 A top-secret intelligence communication from Punjab Police to security  agencies last week states: "To execute this task, Wadhawa Singh is  making efforts to mobilise volunteers from Punjab as also from the US,  who could be made to travel to India via Malaysia or Singapore." IANS is  in possession of the document.  

 Security agencies have been asked to take appropriate security measures  to protect VIPs and important installations across the state.  


 The VIPs said to be in the target list of the terror outfits include  Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal and Congress MP Ravneet Singh  Bittu.  

 Bittu, who is the Punjab Youth Congress president, is the grandson of  former state chief minister Beant Singh, who is credited with wiping out  terrorism in the state in the early 1990s with 'super-cop' KPS Gill.  

 Beant Singh was assassinated by a human bomb here Aug 31, 1995.  

 The intelligence report says that Bittu is particularly being targeted  by the Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF).  

 Another intelligence report from Punjab Police has said terror groups  could target shrines in Amritsar as well as the Nangal Dam and railway  stations at Ropar, Ludhiana and Pathankot.  

 "We will not let any of these groups revive terrorism in the state,"  Punjab Deputy Chief Minister Sukhbir Singh Badal said here.  


 "We are taking the intelligence inputs quite seriously. We do a  day-to-day monitoring of things. Security is being stepped up as  required," Jalandhar Inspector General of Police Sanjiv Kalra told IANS.   

 In the last two months, Punjab Police have found explosives, grenades  and weapons outside vital installations at various places in the state.   

 Several kilograms of explosives were found Jan 19 outside an Indian Oil  LPG bottling plant near Nabha town in Patiala district. Two grenades  were found five days later outside an Indian Air Force (IAF)  establishment at Zirakpur near Chandigarh.  

 A car laden with explosives was found last month outside the IAF  station at Halwara in Ludhiana.  

 Two people were arrested in Patiala on Sunday. Eight kilograms of  explosives and 40 gelatin sticks were recovered from their possession.  

 Though the terrorist-secessionist movement for Khalistan was  comprehensively defeated in 1993, there remain a handful of terrorist  outfits chiefly supported by Pakistan and some NRI Sikh groups who  continue to propagate the ideology of Khalistan.  

 One of the most prominent among them is the BKI, among the oldest and  most organised Khalistan terrorist groups. It is headed by Wadhawa  Singh, who is reportedly hiding in Pakistan. Mehal Singh is the deputy  chief of BKI. Both of them are among the 20 terrorists whom India wants  Pakistan to extradite.


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## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2010)

See related article with historical background from the Sikh Times at 


The  Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Babbar Khalsa Implicated in Jo Bole So  Nihaal Bombings, Planned Assassinations


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 23, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur ji
I am interested in their justification for what they do. Where is it  coming from? If its from our scripture then we need to take an even  closer look. 
I read some articles on similar ideology by Sikhs. In there the  justification came from DG.

I think the quote went like this: _Raj bina nahin  dharam chae hain, dharam bina sab dhale male  hain_
Apparently, its by Guru Gobind Singh so its VERY sacred and highly TRUE.


Leaving that aside, I think its based on at least one assumption that  could simlpy be untrue.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 23, 2010)

All criminals and war criminals of Sikhs will be bought to justice  sooner or later by Sikhs themselves as Sikhs dont have any faith in the  so called Indian justice system.


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## dalbirk (Feb 23, 2010)

Who are these so called TERRORIST GROUPS ? Are these dummy groups  promoted by Capt Amarinder Singh ?


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## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *dalbirk*
> 
> 
> _Who  are these so called TERRORIST GROUPS ? Are these dummy groups promoted  by Capt Amarinder Singh ?_



They are resurrected from older terrorist groups that had been inactive  in India and Pakistan from about 2005 onward. These are in some ways  more difficult to find and pursue because they now do not operate from a  central node of control or authority. Instead they are fragmented and  independently operated cells, locally organized, that band together  around certain issues, and fall away on other issues. The lack of  cohesion also implies lack of any unified rationale. This in turn makes  it more difficult to know who they report to  or how to disable their  leadership.         

I myself like to keep in mind the importance of being skeptical about  some of these news reports. They can exaggerate a problem for political  reasons and the media -- anywhere you go in the world -- is easily drawn  into the hype and does not give a balanced view.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 24, 2010)

How do you that they are fragmented, Narayanjot Kaur ji?


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## spnadmin (Feb 24, 2010)

BhagatSingh said:


> How do you that they are fragmented, Narayanjot Kaur ji?




I read intelligence reports by the Indian Government, the US government, and also think tanks.

When they characterize the groups as "fragmented" they mean "loosely coupled organizations" that will join together in loyalty to a particular cause for a particular objective, and then later "uncouple" and fall back into relatively more autonomous groups.


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## dalbirk (Feb 24, 2010)

IMHO Narayanjot Ji ,
            These so called militant groups are no more than petty criminal or mercenaries who carry out anybody's orders who pays them . It is a very very callous attitude of Sikh Commmunity towards these 'MILITANTS' which will harm them a great deal in coming days , paving the way for Anti-Sikh forces to brand SIKHS as TERRORISTS & thus facilitating another genocide of Sikhs as it was done in 1984 & beyond . This will furthur discourage the parents & young Sikhs from keeping UNSHORN HAIR of young boys , who are anyhow ready to shed their hair at the slight pretext . Any battle which has to be carried out today is through pen , use of internet , TV media , Newspapers in which currently Sikh community is lacking very badly as a whole .


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## spnadmin (Feb 24, 2010)

dalbirk ji

I positively  agree. They are really criminal gangs who will sell their services to the highest bidder, including any government that is the highest bidder. And -- I am glad that you brought up the matter that governments can use them to create distorted impressions of any group they wish to crush in the media and in the public view. Such as Sikhs.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 24, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> IMHO Narayanjot Ji ,
> These so called militant groups are no more than petty criminal or mercenaries who carry out anybody's orders who pays them . It is a very very callous attitude of Sikh Commmunity towards these 'MILITANTS' which will harm them a great deal in coming days , paving the way for Anti-Sikh forces to brand SIKHS as TERRORISTS & thus facilitating another genocide of Sikhs as it was done in 1984 & beyond . This will furthur discourage the parents & young Sikhs from keeping UNSHORN HAIR of young boys , who are anyhow ready to shed their hair at the slight pretext . Any battle which has to be carried out today is through pen , use of internet , TV media , Newspapers in which currently Sikh community is lacking very badly as a whole .


 
I am surprised how foolish you could be in believing the Indian media.

Read the following stories connected with arrest of the so called KLF "terrorists" recently which whole of the baahmanvaadi media blew out of proportion :

Two from Manki village in illegal detention since last six days, family approaches HC, Rights Penal|SikhSiyasat.net – Sikh News and Multimedia.

Punjab Police showed arrest of Jassa after more than a week long illegal detention|SikhSiyasat.net – Sikh News and Multimedia.

PunjabNewsline.com - Punjab police arrests two suspected militants of KLF

Punjab is up in arms and it is now anti Sikh forces like Congress,BJP,RSS and their supporters inside and outside Punjab along with traitors like Badals,Amrinders,Communists who need to worry.

YouTube- Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale Birth Anniversary

YouTube- Khalistan Speech-12 February 2010---Part 1

YouTube- Khalistan Speech-12 February 2010---Part 2

The days of misusing the media and misleading Punjabis are over.

Those so called Sikhs outside Punjab within India need to stop siding with the anti Sikh forces.Another 1984 will happen despite your licking the feet of the baahmanvaadi forces.

For us mona Sikhs like Bhai Navtej Singh Guggu and Bhai Harchand Singh who burnt the butcher of Sikhs and police cat nang(nihang) Ajit Poohla(pagridhari baahman) are more respectable and our heroes instead of the so called bearded and turbaned Sikhs(pagridharidhaari baahmans) inside and outside Punjab who are siding with the bahmanvaadi forces.

YouTube- Statement of Navtej Singh Gaggu and Harchand Singh

YouTube- ajit poohle di aakhri video


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 24, 2010)

As regarding arresting of so called 2 "Terrorists" of KLF recently is concerned which was blown out of proportion by the biased Indian media was totally false and the person Jasbir Singh Jassa who was shown arrested on a naaka was indeed in police custody since a week .Even the indica car shown on tv from which gelatin sticks and detonators were shown to be recovered belonged to some Hindu in Ludhiana who later claimed it was already with police before hand.

Following news items expose the false story of the Punjab police :

PunjabNewsline.com - Two Sangrur villagers in 'illegal' custody of Punjab Police, claims 'Sikhs for Human Rights'

Punjab Police showed arrest of Jassa after more than a week long illegal detention|SikhSiyasat.net – Sikh News and Multimedia.

PunjabNewsline.com - Punjab police arrests two suspected militants of KLF

The days of making fake stories by Punjab police,GOI and Punjab govt are over.


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## Admin (Feb 24, 2010)

Your posts are/is under review for un-necessary rants, hate, personal insults to fellow SPNers, *not allowed. End of the story.*

As has been advised to you on more than three occasions: Stop being a toothless keyword warrior and cry baby. Making boastful statement and passing personal comments does not make your argument more affective. Isn't it funny that you are making so many bold statements in public, yet you are afraid of disclosing your real name. Who is actually hiding in a veil? :advocate: 

Please mend you ways and learn how to talk in a dignified way to a person you are in debate and spare us as well as yourself of working on such missing posts, on which you spent a lot of time and if you can not help it, then you are most welcome to leave the network in a dignified manner!

*Please consider this as our final warning.*

Gurfateh!


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 24, 2010)

Aman Singh said:


> Your posts are/is under review for un-necessary rants, hate, personal insults to fellow SPNers, *not allowed. End of the story.*
> 
> As has been advised to you on more than three occasions: Stop being a toothless keyword warrior and cry baby. Making boastful statement and passing personal comments does not make your argument more affective. Isn't it funny that you are making so many bold statements in public, yet you are afraid of disclosing your real name. Who is actually hiding in a veil? :advocate:
> 
> ...


 
Which personal comments were made by me ,please clarify :advocate:

Only people who like to become famous need to reveal their names.I am not looking for useless popularity.I just want people to understand the situation in Punjab and those living outside Punjab in India not to pass any comment on Punjab Sikhs.

We are already suffering because of such people but will not do so any longer.Hindutva forces and their supporters are not welcome in Punjab.


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## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2010)

> Only people who like to become famous need to reveal their names.I am not looking for useless popularity.I just want people to understand the situation in Punjab and those living outside Punjab in India not to pass any comment on Punjab Sikhs.



LOL Dalbirk ji is a resident  of ludhiana and have much more deeper knowledge of sikh affairs than me or you


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## Admin (Feb 24, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Which personal comments were made by me ,please clarify :advocate:
> 
> Only people who like to become famous need to reveal their names.I am not looking for useless popularity.I just want people to understand the situation in Punjab and those living outside Punjab in India not to pass any comment on Punjab Sikhs.
> 
> We are already suffering because of such people but will not do so any longer.Hindutva forces and their supporters are not welcome in Punjab.


You have already stated your message and spoken loud & clear in so many topics and we all have listened. Its naive to suggest that Sikh community is not awaken to the basic facts. Like you have chosen to avoid publicity for your actions, there may by many who may be working on these issues with hogging the limelight. Any revolution starts with ourselves, waiting for others to take a plunge is like waiting for the judgment day, which may or may not happen. But we need to have a definite plan of action. Kicking aimless in dirty waters will only deface you.

SPN has more than half of the visitors/members from India and they have shown to take the criticism in their stride and contemplated on the issues in hand with a sincere and cool head. Too much persistence or repetition of points has a definite negative affect on the readers and they do feel suffocated.

We appreciate your presense here at SPN but you need to understand that SPN is not an anti-establishment or a propaganda website for any particular group, community, outfit,  organization or even any country. 

I believe you have fully read our forum rules and terms of service, here are links, 



SPN  Forum Rules
Privacy  Policy

I urge you to go through them carefully and there may be clear implications of your actions that you may not be aware of right now.

Gurfateh!


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 24, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> LOL Dalbirk ji is a resident of ludhiana and have much more deeper knowledge of sikh affairs than me or you


 
If Dalbirk (I think k is for Kaur) is in Ludhiana then did he/she come to Fatehgarh Sahib on 12 February,2010 ?I had already told in advance to come to that rally and guage the mood of the Punjabis first hand there.First we need to have first hand knowledge on events around us then we can pass our comments on them.

By the way if somebody is hoping to get knowledge about Punjab Sikhs from the media sitting at home then we will get all wrong information.

By the way Im also in Punjab.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 24, 2010)

Aman Singh said:


> You have already stated your message and spoken loud & clear in so many topics and we all have listened. Its naive to suggest that Sikh community is not awaken to the basic facts. Like you have chosen to avoid publicity for your actions, there may by many who may be working on these issues with hogging the limelight. Any revolution starts with ourselves, waiting for others to take a plunge is like waiting for the judgment day, which may or may not happen. But we need to have a definite plan of action. Kicking aimless in dirty waters will only deface you.
> 
> SPN has more than half of the visitors/members from India and they have shown to take the criticism in their stride and contemplated on the issues in hand with a sincere and cool head. Too much persistence or repetition of points has a definite negative affect on the readers and they do feel suffocated.
> 
> ...


 
LOL,I just went to the above page on SPN Rules which seemed to me similar to India's constitution which has so many sections which favour the ruling elite(in this case the forum Admin) to the detriment of others which I find difficult to accept so I didn't bother to read further.

I just read one or two rules.I can not stop myself from pointing out the truth whenever I find it some where.However if you find that I am promoting a particular group or party you may ban me .I'll find some other outlet for my views.

As it is we are already living in a falsehood in Punjab I can not let that to happen to myself in this forum also.


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## dalbirk (Feb 25, 2010)

Kee Jaana Main kaun Ji ,
             Actually I'm a Singh based in Ludhiana . I suppose you like SAD ( Panch Pardhani ) Bittu Group . Even I like Daljit Singh Bittu ji for his clear ideology like making Sikh youth free from Alcohalism , drugs with which it is plagued right now as well as lack of education or even the wiilingness for education . His contribution during MILITANCY days like 11 person in Baraat , the clearing of Punjab villages from DARU THEKAS are still remembered by one & sundry . However IMHO the biggest immediate challenge today in front of Sikhs is getting rid of CORRUPT BADAL without being branded terrorists by mainstream Hindu media which treats PS Badal as somebody acceptable being MODERATE . If DS Bittu Ji thinks that the path of power in Punjab goes through the Khalistan word , then I'm afraid he is either being NAIVE or simply playing into the hands of either PS Badal or Congress ( I'm not sure which one of these ) . he simply needs to look at the present condition of Simranjit Singh mann who from all 13 seats in Lok Sabha has been reduced to just a CONGRESS TOUT in the eyes of people due to lack of clear cut ideology ,plan of action . If DS Bittu Ji wishes to dislodge Badal from Chandigarh then he needs to concentrate on people's issues like Alcohal , Drugs , Education , healthcare , Deras , Sants ( Charlatans ) , try to make some sort of arrangement with Paramjit Singh Sarna ( does not matter that he is a Congress henchman ) but a lot better than Badal who is a RSS pointman hence more dangerous for coming SGPC elections . Any indulgence in any other adventure may result in a huge shock for Bittu Ji  from the people of Punjab . I'm telling the ground realities today , there is not even 0.000001% of support for K word in Punjab today let alone the cause . One thing I always wonder , why is such a bankruptcy of new ideas & honest commitment as far as Sikh leadership is concerened ? Such a dynamic & revolutionary ideology is producing just dogs who are looking for leftovers only ( maria Shikar khaan wale ) , such a shame .


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 25, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> Kee Jaana Main kaun Ji ,
> Actually I'm a Singh based in Ludhiana . I suppose you like SAD ( Panch Pardhani ) Bittu Group . Even I like Daljit Singh Bittu ji for his clear ideology like making Sikh youth free from Alcohalism , drugs with which it is plagued right now as well as lack of education or even the wiilingness for education . His contribution during MILITANCY days like 11 person in Baraat , the clearing of Punjab villages from DARU THEKAS are still remembered by one & sundry . However IMHO the biggest immediate challenge today in front of Sikhs is getting rid of CORRUPT BADAL without being branded terrorists by mainstream Hindu media which treats PS Badal as somebody acceptable being MODERATE . If DS Bittu Ji thinks that the path of power in Punjab goes through the Khalistan word , then I'm afraid he is either being NAIVE or simply playing into the hands of either PS Badal or Congress ( I'm not sure which one of these ) . he simply needs to look at the present condition of Simranjit Singh mann who from all 13 seats in Lok Sabha has been reduced to just a CONGRESS TOUT in the eyes of people due to lack of clear cut ideology ,plan of action . If DS Bittu Ji wishes to dislodge Badal from Chandigarh then he needs to concentrate on people's issues like Alcohal , Drugs , Education , healthcare , Deras , Sants ( Charlatans ) , try to make some sort of arrangement with Paramjit Singh Sarna ( does not matter that he is a Congress henchman ) but a lot better than Badal who is a RSS pointman hence more dangerous for coming SGPC elections . Any indulgence in any other adventure may result in a huge shock for Bittu Ji from the people of Punjab . I'm telling the ground realities today , there is not even 0.000001% of support for K word in Punjab today let alone the cause . One thing I always wonder , why is such a bankruptcy of new ideas & honest commitment as far as Sikh leadership is concerened ? Such a dynamic & revolutionary ideology is producing just dogs who are looking for leftovers only ( maria Shikar khaan wale ) , such a shame .


 


Dalbirk ji,

Forget everything.You just need to remember "Raaj bina naa dharm chalay hai.."

Jay Raaj kisay hor daa hai taan Sikh dharm kithon chaluga ?We will continue to compromise our Sikh principles with others and keep sacrificing them in the name of this and that unity .This will further result in getting more of our youth further away from Sikhi.
Without Sikh raaj deras will also continue to multiply and we'll keep loosing our females to them.Once females go that way then ultimately children will also go away from Sikhi.
The rulers will continue to encourage nashay,porn,lachar geet etc so that the Sikh youths are led astray and keep hating the Sikhi swaroop and more of them becoming patit.

You must be aware how various deras are luring and then spoiling Punjabi females.

Watch today's story :
YouTube- RSS pakhandi saadh Jaspal "Amrikawala" exposed

and this :

YouTube- PROF.DARSHAN SINGH- ASHUTOSH STORY

If you are in Punjab you must be knowing that neither Bittu nor Mann is involved in any violent activities these days but still Bhai Bittu is in jail and Mann is threatened by the hindutva forces time and again.Bittu is in jail for mobilising youth against derawaad and to discourage his party from participating in SGPC elections.

You have not seen but I have seen Bhai Bittu and Bhai Gaama's very first interview after release from jail after 11 years which was held at Darbar Sahib,Amritsar.In that interview Bhai Bittu said that people have seen our militant face and now they will see our peaceful face.

The Khalistan word has a lot more support than you think.Only thing is people are afraid to say it openly fearing the Punjab police .If you are really in Punjab then get out on the highway and count how many cars you see with Sant Bhindranwale's stickers.I recently travelled on that ludhiana ferozpur road and so many vehicles with those stickers.All of them are supporters of the K word.

As to how parties like Badal dal,Congress etc make crowds for their rallies and how they win elections is well known.They will use every means to win the SGPC elections also and their masters will help them even if it means to use illegal means .Until Sikhs are free they will continue to be at the recieving end and rules made by others will continue to be thust on them.

The way you are calling Mann a congress agent shows your affinity towards badal.No one believes in what badal says.It was people like you who used to call Sant Bhindranwale also a congress agent and perhaps still do.

If you happen to be in Punjab on 28 February,2010 then come to Hola Mohala rallies of SAD(Mann) and SAD(Panch pradhani)and see for yourself.

The bhaiyaas in major cities of Punjab plus the hindus will always vote for Congress or BJP(indirectly Badal).Since you are in the city that is why you think Khalistan support is not much.Khalistan resides in villages.Not only Sikhs in villages but also hindus in villages support it.

When all means fail it is righteous to raise the sword if some one's rights are being wrongly infringed.

These days Sikhs are begging for justice for anti Sikh genocides of 1984 and are getting nothing.Ultimately they will realise that the only way to get justice in India is the way KCF punished Lalit Maken,Dharmdaas Shashtri.

At the moment Khalistan movement is in it's peaceful phase but if the govt leaves no option then some youth may take up arms even though their leaders like Mann or Bittu may not like it.


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> Kee Jaana Main kaun Ji ,
> Actually I'm a Singh based in Ludhiana . I suppose you like SAD ( Panch Pardhani ) Bittu Group . Even I like Daljit Singh Bittu ji for his clear ideology like making Sikh youth free from Alcohalism , drugs with which it is plagued right now as well as lack of education or even the wiilingness for education . His contribution during MILITANCY days like 11 person in Baraat , the clearing of Punjab villages from DARU THEKAS are still remembered by one & sundry . However IMHO the biggest immediate challenge today in front of Sikhs is getting rid of CORRUPT BADAL without being branded terrorists by mainstream Hindu media which treats PS Badal as somebody acceptable being MODERATE . If DS Bittu Ji thinks that the path of power in Punjab goes through the Khalistan word , then I'm afraid he is either being NAIVE or simply playing into the hands of either PS Badal or Congress ( I'm not sure which one of these ) . he simply needs to look at the present condition of Simranjit Singh mann who from all 13 seats in Lok Sabha has been reduced to just a CONGRESS TOUT in the eyes of people due to lack of clear cut ideology ,plan of action . If DS Bittu Ji wishes to dislodge Badal from Chandigarh then he needs to concentrate on people's issues like Alcohal , Drugs , Education , healthcare , Deras , Sants ( Charlatans ) , try to make some sort of arrangement with Paramjit Singh Sarna ( does not matter that he is a Congress henchman ) but a lot better than Badal who is a RSS pointman hence more dangerous for coming SGPC elections . Any indulgence in any other adventure may result in a huge shock for Bittu Ji  from the people of Punjab . I'm telling the ground realities today , there is not even 0.000001% of support for K word in Punjab today let alone the cause . One thing I always wonder , why is such a bankruptcy of new ideas & honest commitment as far as Sikh leadership is concerened ? Such a dynamic & revolutionary ideology is producing just dogs who are looking for leftovers only ( maria Shikar khaan wale ) , such a shame .



kee_jaana_mein_kaum ji

I have reposted the comments of respected forum member Dalbir Singh ji. And surely some of us are wondering how you came to your conclusions in the previous post based on what Dalbir ji wrote. Take it line by line if you have to.

There is not a single sentence that leads me to your conclusions -- suggesting that you have a set agenda, have made no effort to consider what other people say with open eyes and an open mind, open to the actual evidence as opposed to your theory of righteousness.  

This is very disrespectful. Your methods are no different from a fanatical Christian, Muslim, or Sikh who is here to push an agenda  which requires rigid acceptance of your way of thinking. You are playing a game -- played by thousands before you -- who are and were  doctrinaire members of religious and political organizations for whom narrow and inflexible ideology is/was used to damn the world. This is the same game played by Pol Pot in Cambodia, the Gang of Four in China, the MauMau in Kenya, the TonTon Macoute in Hairi. All keepers of the keys to an exclusive club for whom "purity" is a dirty word to everyone else.

And you and people like you run others away who might have seen the logic of much of what you say but are nauseated by the hatred and animosity that you monger.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 25, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> kee_jaana_mein_kaum ji
> 
> I have reposted the comments of respected forum member Dalbir Singh ji. And surely some of us are wondering how you came to your conclusions in the previous post based on what Dalbir ji wrote. Take it line by line if you have to.
> 
> ...


 
Narayanjot Kaur ji,

Sorry menu kujh samajh nahi aaya uppar kee likhya 

May be you have hatred towards Khalistan(Raaj Karega Khalsa) that is why you are trying to delete or comment on each of my posts.May be you are trying to promote some agenda.Forum's are for exchanging different and opposite views and not according to what Admins think is right.

I only asked him to not rely on any media reports and get out of the city and go to the villages to learn more . 

As he is saying there is bankruptcy of ideas then he should mention which new ideas he has ?There is nothing as sacred as self respect and to be master's of one's own destiny.I dont know how this means picking on left overs.By the way both Mann and Bittu are founders of Khalistan movement and they are picking up from where they left not the left overs.

And just to conclude no problem of Punjab can be solved without self rule."Raj bina naa dharm chalay hai.." expressly says that religion can not flourish until there is self rule .This has been said by our Gurus and not by Bittu or Mann or me or anyone else.This is not agenda of some political party or the list like Pol pot etc you have given ,it is agenda of our Gurus.That is why Khalsa Raaj came into being.Why do we people say "Raaj Karega Khalsa,aaki rahay na koi.." in each ardas ?Just for formality sake ?Those who do not realise it now will ultimately realise it when it is too late.

If some one is not concerned about Punjab's problem and is only concerned about his daily routine then he/she should not comment on this issue at all.


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun ji

My response and a general reaction at the end. 



kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Narayanjot Kaur ji,
> 
> Sorry menu kujh samajh nahi aaya uppar kee likhya
> 
> ...



Great. Take a break. I think you need a break too! Don't forget you yourself set forth your own agenda. No one forced you.  I will save the remainder of my impressions when you return from your break -- unless of course you have a change of mind and attitude.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 25, 2010)

NO RELIGION CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT SOVEREIGNITY.

This is evident from the position of Sikhs here in Punjab these days.Without sovereignity Sikhism and Punjabi language will be finished. 
Sikhism is the only religion which does not have it's own state.

Hindus got Hindustan
Muslims got Pakistan
Sikhs got 1984


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2010)

Please explain then, kee_jaana_mein_kaun ji how Christianity, Judaism, Hindu sects of every sort, Buddhism in all it forms, Jainism, Sikhism, and dozens of other religions and sects, are now surviving in the US, UK, Canada? 

If you are saying that our gurus were advocating "theocracy" as a form of government you are dead wrong and are twisting their words.

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ   ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥ 

 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">raaj n chaaho  mukath n chaaho man preeth charan  kamalaarae ||
 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">I do  not seek power, and I do not  seek liberation. My mind is in love with  Your Lotus Feet.</td></tr></tbody></table>
Please see the complete shabad on Ang 354

If you yourself are advocating for a Sikh theocracy, for example Khalistan run as a theocracy, then you are courting the corruption of both religion and politics, not to mention personal freedoms. But of course, if that is what you are advocating, then we understand your posts much better. They are extremely well- informed essays, but also the rants of a religious fanatic. Please assure me I am wrong.


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## dalbirk (Feb 26, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Dalbirk ji,
> 
> Forget everything.You just need to remember "Raaj bina naa dharm chalay hai.."
> 
> ...



IMHO kee jaana ji ,
           The mass support you are talking of is supposedly MONA SIKHS living in villages of Punjab ( there are no Sabat Surat left in villages anyhow ) . Can we have a check list of this supporter base as regards their ideology of a Sikh State named K..... .
1. How many of this youth can spell the name of TEN GURUS in sequence ?
2. How many of these youth are TEETOTALLERS ie do not touch liquor ?
3. How many of these youth do not consume any tobbacco product like Jarda , Cigerrate , Beedi etc ?
4. How many do not consume any intoxicant like Dodey , Opium , Bhukki , Smack or Heroin ?
5 . How many of these do not indulge in pre-marital sex or extra-marital sex?
6. How many of them do not have their ears pierced or wear earrings ?
7. How many of these work 10-12 hours daily if they are not students earning enough to support whole families ?
8 . If they are students how many are studying 4 hours daily after college ? How many of them are post-graduate with good grades aiming for livelihood ie Job Worthy candidates capable of getting jobs in India ?
9. How many of these get up at AMRIT VELA & do simran ?  
10. How many of these have heard about Sikh Rehat Maryada & are aware of its contents ?
11. How many of them have not gone to Pir's grave on Thursdays or visited Naina Devi while visiting Anandpur Sahib , have not consulted any Astrologer regularly ? How many of these do not seek blessings of some Sant , Babaji regularly ?
         IMHO the rural youth of Punjab is gravely mislead today , they are infact unguided (misguided ) missiles who can destroy anyone before they are finally themselves destroyed . These youth have infact EAT,DRINK & MAKE MERRY as their ONLY motto in life . They just want to get rich overnight without doing any hard work , show off our wealth by reckless spending , earn accolades ,become famous , live life in fast lane & die quickly ( very young age ) . They are infact street loitering raanjhas , lazy , idle , good for nothing street romeos (gali de ashiq ). Some days ago a Sikh gentleman who was trying to migrate to Canada  just asked me the why Hindu Banias have so much money ? Whether it is their  fortune guided by some good Astrologer Pandit or is it just in blood ? To which I replied that a Bania will strictly match his daily cash transactions ( Roznamcha ) will not go home till it is matched even if it is 11 PM . This is just one example in addition to their frugual, simple lifestyle as well a penchant for writing,recording each & every transaction , 12-14 hours daily duty at work shop/industry ? How many of us are that disciplined ? Not even one among a million ? We are not willing to discipline ourselves , not willing to do hard work but keep an eye on others' money , affluence . We just want to spend money , do AISH . There is just no more aim of our lives . Then somebody comes up with a slogan we just rush after him , free langar , free transport , leave from work . Does not matter if that guy is a Dere Wala Baba , a rapist Sant ( charlatan ) , A Khalistani , A Kabbadi Tournament organiser ( who is infact a Kabootarbaaz ) , a Politician anybody in the whole world , we do not give a damn to his credential . We only live for today ( AJJ DI DIAHRI ) . There is no such word as PLANNING or FUTURE in our dictionary . We have all the symptoms of a CRIMINAL MENTALITY without an iota of morality inside us . For us RAAJ KAREGA KHALSA is to have a free loot of others money earned by them through 24/7 hardwork . I certainly suppose this is not what the GURUS had in mind . Actually IMHO the GURUS had exactly the opposite in their mind & will . So we have to decide which way to go . WJKK WJKF .


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> IMHO kee jaana ji ,
> The mass support you are talking of is supposedly MONA SIKHS living in villages of Punjab ( there are no Sabat Surat left in villages anyhow ) . Can we have a check list of this supporter base as regards their ideology of a Sikh State named K..... .
> 1. How many of this youth can spell the name of TEN GURUS in sequence ?
> 2. How many of these youth are TEETOTALLERS ie do not touch liquor ?
> ...


 
Simple answer to ALL the above questions is :

"Without Sikh sovereignity Sikh religion is being finished and will ultimately diminish"

So "Sikh religion CAN NOT survive without sovereignity" as is evident from all the above questions which shows the present position of the Sikhs as we are ruled by some other people who have no interest in spreading Sikhi ,in fact want to finish it.In fact by giving such a big list of present position of Sikhs you have yourself expressed anguish at present state Sikhi today but you have neither given the reason for all this or the solution.

Khalistan is not a theocratic state and will ultimately benefit the females the most .We have personally experienced Khalistan for a brief period the popularity of which enraged the GOI so much that they thought of finishing the Khalistanis by hook or by crook.The new generation does not even know about that.You need to listen to interviews and speeches of various Khalistani leaders and groups whom you call terrorists like Sant Bhindranwale,Man,Bittu or even Babbar Khalsa to clearly understand the concept.

Khalistan is in fact opposite of theocracy and will be governed on the principle of "Raaj Karega Khalsa" and "Sarbat daa bhaala".Khalsa never hits downtroden or innocent people but never leaves a criminal.In fact India at present is a theocratic hindu state and no where near a democracy.Anything which is not in line with the principles of baahmanvaad are rejected.That is why each nook and corner of India Northeast,Kashmir,Khalistan,the entire South,including 40,000 kms(naxal area) are fighting.

Listen to ALL parts of the interviews of these so called "terrorists"
if you have the guts :

YouTube- Bhai Daljit Singh Bittu-Khalistan Interview-1

YouTube- Bhai Daljit Singh Bittu-Khalistan Interview-2

YouTube- Khalistan Interview-1

Watch ALL 4 parts of the above interview to get the real picture​ 
YouTube- Khalistan is our birth right-3

YouTube- Khalistan Speech-12 February 2010---Part 1

YouTube- Khalistan Speech-12 February 2010---Part 2

It is being clearly said in the above video that first Khalistan will be formed ONLY THEN can the youth be saved from becoming patit and from all that is listed by Dalbirk.In other words without Khalistan the list which Dalbirk has mentioned will continue to increase​ 
I know many people will simply not listen and watch the above saying it is Khalistani propoganda or some agenda but if you do listen you will know it is only the truth which is hard to digest.This fight between truth and lies has been going on ever since Guru Nanak Sahab who refused to wear the jeneu and follow useless rules and regulations of the bahmanvaadi forces ever since his childhood.

*For a moment remove the "Khalistan" word from the above videos and consider them as just ordinary informative videos and have the guts to point out which portion is wrong or lies in the above videos ?*
*A true Sikh should stand by the truth and against the lies.*

The old tactics of maligning Khalistan concept by the bahman bania elite and bureucracy and their supporters(knowingly or unknowingly) is falling flat these days thanks to information technology and the internet .

Any one inside or outside Punjab may shout on top of his voice claiming that Khalistan is a criminal or theocratic state but nobody except the hindutva forces will buy that .That is the reason why the low and middle class hindus in Punjab have started supporting Khalistan openly.

Dalbirk I can see from your statements you have been brain washed by the Indian media and perhaps even by people known to you.That is why when 2 so called KLF "terrorists" were shown arrested by Punjab police you started the same ranting which media channels do after each such arrest,criminals,murders,terrorists,this and that without realising that this could simply be a ploy to malign the Khalistan movement which is picking up these days.But the lies of the Punjab police and govt were exposed by "Zee Punjabi News " itself the next day in the 4 pm news but was quickly censored so the story did not appear in the further bulletins.But this is the internet age.

As regards Sikhs outside India ie USA,Canada,Pakistan,Australia etc Sikhs faced difficulty there and were even hit after 9/11 ,the Indian govt did nothing for the Sikhs.The govt which cant do anything for Sikhs living within their own country example the 1984 and after genocide what can you expect from that govt for Sikhs living outside India.

The persons who dont support Khalistan are not even 0.000001% and that too only in the cities .It is mainly the bahman bania clan and their supporters who have always been against Sikhs,their Gurus and the concept of "Sarbat daa bhalaa" as they occupy the main posts in the bureucracy and govt posts and derive their bread and butter by dividing people on the basis of caste,creed.

Ordinary people are either supporters of Khalistan or are neutral,not against it.

Everyone must remember India's best friend Soviet Union disintegrated due to economic break down.We are heading towards that in India also.

This time the millions of the Sikh diaspora which has woken up and has more info even than the ordinary people in Punjab will play a major rule in formation of Khalistan state in which everyone irrespective of religion,caste,creed will enjoy all benefits but the rule will be according to Guru Granth Sahib and not the bahmanvaadi principles as at present.

If some Sikhs outside are sending money for the Khalistan cause voluntarily then kee_jaana_mein_kaun or dalbirk or some other should have no problem with that.

We should in fact be worried about how people like badal who was owner of just a few acres of land and whose father is responsible for poisoning a number Sikhs has managed to build such an empire with enormous wealth ?

There are many similar examples .


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Darshan Singh not shown arrested by Punjab police even after keeping him in " illegal detention for 12 days" :

12 ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???-??? ????; ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Please explain then, kee_jaana_mein_kaun ji how Christianity, Judaism, Hindu sects of every sort, Buddhism in all it forms, Jainism, Sikhism, and dozens of other religions and sects, are now surviving in the US, UK, Canada?
> 
> If you are saying that our gurus were advocating "theocracy" as a form of government you are dead wrong and are twisting their words.
> 
> ...


 
I once again wish to confirm that Khalistan and autocracy or theocracy are exactly opposite.Khalistan concept is diametrically opposite to religious fanaticism.It is disheartening to learn that despite the advent of internet and information technology even educated and learned people are falling prey to the lies and propoganda by the bahmanvaadi state.
It seems the 10,000 dollars which they have distributed to various media including Punjabi media abroad to propogate lies and misinterpreting the Khalistan mobvement is working.The day every one understands this the propoganda of the bahmanvaadi fanatics and fascists in India will end.

Only a fool would like to live in a theocratic state or even support it. Watch all the videos I have listed in the previous post and please inform which of them is advocating theocracy and discuss it here.
If any of the above so called "terrorists"(according to India) is advocating fanaticism or theocracy I along with majority of the Sikhs will be the first to reject that person.You are in fact commiting a blunder in misunderstanding the concept of Khalistan wrongly.Perhaps 9/11 has blinded most people where as Sikhs were also the victims then.

By the way religion and politics are inseperable in Sikhism as "Miri Piri concept" mentioned by Guru Hargobind Sahib but religion should be above politics but at the moment both in Hindustan as well as Khalistan politics is above religion.

By the way these days new states are not formed with violence .Google "Kosovo" and find out.Despite being an independent autonomous state in former Yugoslavia it is protected against invasion by United Nations.

All the supporters of RSS and the Indian state just get 1 of the perpetrators of the 1984 anti Sikh riots even arrested and prosecuted with the help of RSS,hindutva forces or even ordinary hindus we will believe they are friends of Sikhs.Let alone get them prosecuted they will not participate even in protests with the Sikhs outside various courts because they themselves were involved in the genocide.

In fact India is a theocratic,bahman bania ruled state and anything which does not confirm with the bahmanvaadi concept is rejected and termed anti national.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Dalbir Singh ji,

Do you support any party in Punjab or you dont care who rules ?

Everyone in Punjab who does not support Mann and Bittu must be supporting some party or the other ie badal or amrinder.For their info badal and amrinder are both signatories to "KHALISTAN" declaration submitted to the then UN secretrary general Boutros Ghaali which they signed at "AKAAL TAKHT" .There are proofs of this on the internet even.

Now the same amrinder and badal have run away from Khalistan because GOI has allowed them to make as much money as they like,keep girl friends,enjoy life but not to talk about rights of the Sikhs.

For them Khalistan is right if they speak for it but if Mann and Bittu speak for Khalistan then they are wrong and traitors of India.


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## kds1980 (Feb 26, 2010)

> Everyone must remember India's best friend Soviet Union disintegrated due to economic break down.We are heading towards that in India also.



Well If this happen then there is nothing wrong in formation of a sikh country, but it is wise
for sikhs to keep their mouth shut about khalistan O/W the entire blame will be put on us.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Well If this happen then there is nothing wrong in formation of a sikh country, but it is wise
> for sikhs to keep their mouth shut about khalistan O/W the entire blame will be put on us.


 
OK fine,

But my sincere request is to please watch all the videos on the following page properly and discuss in this forum which point is wrong in these videos ?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/121423-post26.html

After all we are not fools to accept any Sikh advocating a theocratic state as our leader.Moreover we will never support anyone who is working against the interest of Sikhs or even Punjabis and Punjab in general.

As regards blame then please could you list how many of those who suffered in 1984 anti Sikh pogroms were Khalistan supporters ?Most of them were in fact congress supporters.

So be vigilant and prepared whether you are in Punjab or outside.


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## dalbirk (Feb 26, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Dalbir Singh ji,
> 
> Do you support any party in Punjab or you dont care who rules ?
> 
> ...



NO Kee jaana ji ,
             I'm not in favour of Khalistan . It is my belief that India is not going to disintegrate any time soon. Some months ago I saw in TV some Kashmiri Old persons saying about the militancy wave in Kashmir , they said it was a mistake to have indulged in voilence . We ( kashmiri Muslims ) should have looked at the result of Sikh Wave in Punjab & then should have realised that GOI shall go to any extent to avoid such happening . No matter how persons it has to kill , no matter how much destruction it has to do , it will but will not allow disintegration of India . The Assam problem , Punjab problem , Sri lankan , Giorkhaland problems were all the gifts of Indira to India because it was her policy whereever there was a slight chance of  non-Congress Govt there non-state actors stepped in to fill the role of opposition propped up by Indira . The present Govts will not repeat those mistakes , nor any unilateral wave of any party is blowing in the country . the maoists are getting help from China , mark my words it will bring nothing else than bloodshed & tears to Tribals . If DS Bittu ji is interested in changing Punjab , let him win SGPC first , let him put his party programme before people . I may assure you only the declaration of PUNJAB as a dry state , getting it free from drugs will bring him unexpected windfall of votes from womenfolk which will easily get him the chair of Punjab CM . Democracy is the only way forward , as I see things currently .


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> NO Kee jaana ji ,
> I'm not in favour of Khalistan . It is my belief that India is not going to disintegrate any time soon. Some months ago I saw in TV some Kashmiri Old persons saying about the militancy wave in Kashmir , they said it was a mistake to have indulged in voilence . We ( kashmiri Muslims ) should have looked at the result of Sikh Wave in Punjab & then should have realised that GOI shall go to any extent to avoid such happening . No matter how persons it has to kill , no matter how much destruction it has to do , it will but will not allow disintegration of India . The Assam problem , Punjab problem , Sri lankan , Giorkhaland problems were all the gifts of Indira to India because it was her policy whereever there was a slight chance of non-Congress Govt there non-state actors stepped in to fill the role of opposition propped up by Indira . The present Govts will not repeat those mistakes , nor any unilateral wave of any party is blowing in the country . the maoists are getting help from China , mark my words it will bring nothing else than bloodshed & tears to Tribals . If DS Bittu ji is interested in changing Punjab , let him win SGPC first , let him put his party programme before people . I may assure you only the declaration of PUNJAB as a dry state , getting it free from drugs will bring him unexpected windfall of votes from womenfolk which will easily get him the chair of Punjab CM . Democracy is the only way forward , as I see things currently .


 
Dalbir Singh ji,

The TV reports you are referring to regarding Kashmir,we have seen many such false reports during so called militancy in Punjab.Nobody believes in any report shown on Indian tv regarding disputed regions of India.

Mann,Bittu can not win any election including SGPC so long as BJP/RSS/Congress control the center and their stooges control Punjab.
As they will use all unfair means to get their puppets elected in Punjab even if it means shedding blood.

The following video states exactly that :
YouTube- simranjit singh mann at ludhiana

Im just randomly finding videos from youtube which have relevence to the discussion and Im not promoting any agenda.

Similarly Punjab will not get free from drugs or deravaad so long as the power rests with BJP/RSS/Congress and their puppets as these are beneficial for both central and Punjab govt.The only way to get rid of them is a Sikh state where all deravaad,drugs,porn,lachar geet will have no place.

Every right thinking Sikh who has no agenda to promote knows there is no difference between Congress,BJP,RSS,fake communists in India as all believe in the same brahmanical thinking under which Sikhs are dubbed as Hindus and dont have their own independent status.If you do not support Khalistan then you are automatically the supporter of brahmanical thinking and the constitition which considers Sikhs are Hindus.Some pagridhari brahmans are comfirtable with that but a large number of self respecting Sikhs like me are not.

We have come across a number of Sikhs in the army also who are not comfirtable with this notion.

The most common mistake some Sikhs make is to think Congress is their enemy whereas BJP/RSS are their friends although we have so many examples to prove that they all are same.

Just a small example ,how many RSS/BJP leaders despite being in Delhi took part in protests against Sajjan kumar outside the court along with the Sikhs ?

Why a shameless Sikh like Onkar Thapar of badal dal who is seen in the following video could not manage to bring a single RSS/VHP/BJP leader to these protests whereas he himself is seen in their rallies ? :

YouTube- DOG IS BARKING FOR A PIECE OF BREAD

Or are these leaders not participating in the protests because they themselves were involved in the 1984 anti Sikh massacre in Delhi,Bokaro,Kanpur,Indore etc ?

All the answers in my post are relevant to various questions asked by dalbirk.There is nothing irrelevant here.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Well If this happen then there is nothing wrong in formation of a sikh country, but it is wise
> for sikhs to keep their mouth shut about khalistan O/W the entire blame will be put on us.


 

koi kisi ko raaj naa deh hai 
jo leh hai nijj bal say leh hai


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## spnadmin (Feb 26, 2010)

I am wondering how you resolve two completely contradictory notions.

*Material in green font by kee_jaana_mein_kaun. *

Simple answer to ALL the above questions is :

"Without Sikh sovereignity Sikh religion is being finished and will  ultimately diminish"

How is the above statement not an equation between the Sikh religion and Sikh political rule? Then you go onto say that your vision of Khalistan is not a theocracy. You are not making sense. 

So "Sikh religion CAN NOT survive without sovereignity" as is evident  from all the above questions which shows the present position of the  Sikhs as we are ruled by some other people who have no interest in  spreading Sikhi ,in fact want to finish it.

Based on all other comments you have made, you seem to think that Sikhs are found only in India. And that Sikhs living in other countries are experiencing some kind of loss of religious identity and freedom of expression because they are not ruling themselves.

Agreed that the antics of RSS, SAD and Badal grossly limit freedom of religion for Sikhs everywhere. That is a matter of tragically violating boundaries between state and religion, and is an artifact of the Indian Constitution. The creation of Khalistan does not solve the problem. An orderly political process in which the constitution is changed would be one way of solving the problem.

....

Khalistan is not a theocratic state ... 

So far there are as many definitions of what Khalistan will be as there are parties that advocate the formation of Khalistan. Until a critical mass of Sikhs have a clear sense of exactly what is meant by Khalistan, how it will be formed, what the downside or economic and political risks of its formation are likely to be, and how it will be governed, you will never be part of conversation in which your blatant claims are taken seriously. 

Sikhs that I know really do not cherish the thought of reinventing and Israeli/Palestine scenario in which every day of their lives is fraught with internal squabbling and an ever clear and present danger of war.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

*All those Sikhs who still think Congress is their enemy and BJP is not see these. *

*This is not propoganda or spreading hatred.It is just an eye opener .*

*Remember BJP leader Advani in his book has also called Indra Gandhi as Durga.He says in his book the Sikh Gurus were not Gurus but sants only.Futher he says in his book Sikhs are just pagridhari armed hindus meant to defend the hindus(in other words meant to protect brahmans).*

*Actually only time will tell who will perish.No matter how much the Sikhs keep gloating on false Hindu Sikh unity another 1984 will happen.Moreover not a single person for 1984 anti Sikh massacres has been punished.*


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

To Admin : If you can decrease the size of the first 2 images then please do so.I dont know how to do it.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I am wondering how you resolve two completely contradictory notions.
> 
> *Material in green font by kee_jaana_mein_kaun. *
> 
> ...


 
Narayanjot Kaur ji,

I am just amused at the theoretical solutions which you are providing which have no practical significance.

We have tried all this over the last 25 years or 63 years to be more exact.

I dont know which Sikhs you know in USA because most of the Sikhs who live out of India support Khalistan as they have more knowledge about the real situation due to the internet.

Kosovo is an example for us not Palestine.Goggle may spread more light on Kosovo.

Our problem is USA is inclining more towards theocratic hindutva state as they consider that it could be helpful to them in the so called fight against terror .Mosaad is helping the fascist hindutva forces which indirectly runs the Indian govt.


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## spnadmin (Feb 26, 2010)

kee__jaana__mein__kaun

I am glad that I was able to make you laugh :rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!: Please tell me how you have become an expert on what Sikhs in the US believe or even know about Hindutva. Or is this another example of how you overgeneralize from an assumption having no basis in fact?

And P/S This is the incredible part for me. You have a weird inclination to disagree vehemently and even question the motives of individuals who have repeatedly and openly agreed with you on 98 percent of your views. But LOL - if any one disagrees on 2 percent -- they should take my advice and run for cover.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> kee__jaana__mein__kaun
> 
> I am glad that I was able to make you laugh :rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!: Please tell me how you have become an expert on what Sikhs in the US believe or even know about Hindutva. Or is this another example of how you overgeneralize from an assumption having no basis in fact?


 
Narayanjot Kaur ji,

I just know that Sikhs in USA access the internet and youtube a lot so I presume they know about hindutva.Any Sikh with roots in Punjab will definately know about hindutva .I dont know about others.

However,if those in this forum from USA/Canada really dont know about the true face of hindutva then they should not comment even on that subject and should in fact ask those who know something about it.

I have studied this phenomena a lot as it directly affects us here in Punjab and can even write a small booklet on the hindutva forces and their cunning tactics in India.


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## spnadmin (Feb 26, 2010)

kee_mein_jaana_kaun ji

And once again -- you base a conclusion on a generalization that you cannot back up with facts. Just exactly who is it that fits this description.

_"However,if those in this forum from USA/Canada really dont know about  the true face of hindutva then they should not comment even on that  subject and should in fact ask those who know something about it._"

You have done quite a lot of hollering at people from India ...doesn't add up.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 26, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> kee_mein_jaana_kaun ji
> 
> And once again -- you base a conclusion on a generalization that you cannot back up with facts. Just exactly who is it that fits this description.
> 
> ...


 
Any one who does not know about these forces should ask and discuss openly in this forum.

I find those in India are mostly ignorant as they are blinded by the propoganda of Indian media which calls itself free but in reality all the channels are govt mouth pieces and are there to promote the hinduisation of India.Ask any one from India what they are shown daily on all channels.

If anyone finds anything wrong in the videos or pictures I have posted we can discuss it .Even if some one feels any video promotes hatred or violence then also please inform and discuss as I have not made those videos.


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## spnadmin (Feb 26, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Any one who does not know about these forces should ask and discuss openly in this forum.
> 
> I find those in India are mostly ignorant as they are blinded by the propoganda of Indian media which calls itself free but in reality all the channels are govt mouth pieces and are there to promote the hinduisation of India.Ask any one from India what they are shown daily on all channels.
> 
> If anyone finds anything wrong in the videos or pictures I have posted we can discuss it .Even if some one feels any video promotes hatred or violence then also please inform and discuss as I have not made those videos.



LOL

First you were going on about Sikhs in the US and UK who are ignorant. Now you are going on about Sikhs in India who are ignorant. Apparently you are the only one who is not ignorant.

Before I fire my next round of bullets, please explain in a concise way. Why should anyone on this forum should believe or accept that your are truly dedicated to the cause of Khalistan? Can you explain without reference for just one single post to Hindutva or RSS? Can you give us a rationale for Khalistan that is not hatred-based? Forgive me - not hatred-based and not pro-Pakistan?


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## harbansj24 (Feb 27, 2010)

*kee_jaana_mein_kaun* ji

There is much that is wrong in India insofar the Sikhs are concerned.

But it is also fact that Sikhs are also respected for their hard work, honesty and lively nature throughout India.

After the early nineties, their is no perceptible discrimination against the Sikhs in any field and Sikhs have progressed better than any other other minority community in India.

I will just reproduce my earlier post. Please try to explain the issues:



_Did Bhindranwale seriously believe that he could fight the might of of the Indian state by being holed up in a few acres of Darbar Sahib?_
_Surely he could not have been carried away and imagine himself of doing a repeat of Guru Gobind Singh jis battle at Chamkaur? Anybody can say that these two situations are not comparable._
_Did he not realise that Indira Gandhi was just giving him a long rope and wanted to fix him and simultaneously humiliate the Sikhs. Did not Bhindranwale neatly fall into her trap?_
_When passengers were selectively being pulled out of buses and murdered in cold blood, why did not Bhindranwale condemn these acts? Is not killing of unarmed innocents of any faith, specifically against the teaching of our Gurus?_
_Did not the entire Sikh leadership come out poorly in the whole sorry episode and common Sikhs subjected to entirely avoidable trauma and ridicule worldwide?_
_Nehru and Indra Gandhi harmed the Sikhs a lot but INMO the response of Sikh leadership was without any well thought of Strategy. This was unlike any of our Gurus who were extremely alert to the situations and their actions well thought out and planned.

_Do you seriously believe, the approach being advocated by you will not lead to a repeat of the above and subject the Sikhs to unnecessary humiliationand ridicule?

Sikhs in India and abroad especially in US and Canada are on the threshold of making a mark as a most progressive community of the world. IMHO regressive thinking will again put the clock back for the Sikhs and will bring to naught all that has been achieved in the last few years.


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Feb 27, 2010)

dunno y sikhs need to form organisation when dashmesh pita had already organised us into d best religion called sikhism or khalsa.....


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 27, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> LOL
> 
> First you were going on about Sikhs in the US and UK who are ignorant. Now you are going on about Sikhs in India who are ignorant. Apparently you are the only one who is not ignorant.
> 
> Before I fire my next round of bullets, please explain in a concise way. Why should anyone on this forum should believe or accept that your are truly dedicated to the cause of Khalistan? Can you explain without reference for just one single post to Hindutva or RSS? Can you give us a rationale for Khalistan that is not hatred-based? Forgive me - not hatred-based and not pro-Pakistan?


 
Narayanjot Kaur ji,

Khalistan is a "Buffer state" which is neither pro Pakistan nor pro Hindustan but has has the right to take help from any country ,state who is willing to give political and moral support.

India did not get independence because of Gandhi sitting and weaving at the charkaa with females sitting around him whom India till date calls "baapu".

It was because of Indian National Army(INA) of Subhash Chander Bose,Babbar Akalis,Gaddar Party,Bhagat Singh Sandhu and others whom the British used to call "terrorists" .Bose made his INA outside India and got help for it from some foreign countries also.

Some one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.Khalistan is a not a choice but a neccesity.To know why Khalistan is necessary you need to know that in reality India is not the secular,democratic,liberal state as in potrayed in the western media but a hindu theocratic state which is sometimes ruled in the name of congress or BJP or some Janta party.Any one who opposes this theocracy is first called "anti national","pakistani agent","enemy of hindu sikh or hindu muslim unity" and is ultimately done away with.

Just count how many minority community members have been put to gallows on some pretext or the other and how many majority community members ?

Ordinary hindus have no need to either speak for or against the hindutva forces as the fascists hindutva forces are doing the work for them.Since keeping quite potrays them as secular people.

Sikhs are still considered hindus in article 25(b) of India's constitution.Sikh children are still married according to hindu marriage act.Besides this there are so many other anti Sikh factors which will take a lot of space.

Not me but all the various Khalistani leaders whom you people call "terrorists" have clarified time and again what Khalistan is and has nothing to do with theocracy because Khalistan will be based on the principle of Sarbat daa bhaalaa and not according to the present constitution which is favourable only to India's majority community.You dont have the time or guts to view those videos and want be explain again and again the same thing.

By the way do you understand Punjabi or not ?


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## dalbirk (Feb 27, 2010)

Kee Jaana Ji ,
       IMHO the best solutions to the problems outlined by you like Article 25(B) & Anand Marriage Act to be passed through is to talk to Congress . See now Congress is fully dependent on minority votes like Muslims , Christians , Sikhs , Dalits & also SECULAR HINDUS . Sonia is ready to do anything to please minorities . See how Sikhs have got their reputation soaring in Delhi under the leadership of Paramjit Singh Sarna who in close co-ordination with CM Sheila Dixit has got SECOND LANGUAGE status for Punjabi in Delhi , now Haryana has followed suit . His work in each & every sphere in Delhi is to be seen to be believed nearly all has the bearing of a well oiled corporate organisation well planned , well executed . How much is the population of Sikhs in Delhi ? Less than 10% how did PS Sarna managed it ? It is a near miracle . Akalis / Badal made a huge hue & cry over Punjabi language but did what ? Nothing , the output of all Tamashas , NIL . There is no better time than NOW to remove our all grievances , make a list , ask PS Sarna to head the delegation & mark my words , they will all be accepted even without a slight murmur in the very first meeting. BTW I asked you to suggest DS Bittu to declare party programme ensure that it includes the promise to make Punjab a dry state , free from liqour & drugs . He will be ensured of all votes of womenfolk whose voting percentage was 76% while the corrosponding figure for men was 58% in 2007 Assembly ( State ) Elections . So he will be directly addressing the most major grievance of KING MAKER community which is the WOMEN OF PUNJAB .


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 27, 2010)

Dalbirk Ji,

Best of luck for your talk with Congress or BJP regarding Article 25(b),Anand Marriage Act,punishment for 1984 guilty ,Chandigarh,Punjabi speaking areas etc.

All others who have been trying for this for 63 years and the 2 lakh Sikhs who became shaheed for these very demands were fools.

Haryana CM accorded second language status for Punjabi and in the same press conference claimed Chandigarh belonged to Haryana.We'll talk after punjabi is fully implemented in Haryana.This is a political gimick.

Haryana CM's recognition of seperate Haryana Gurdwara committe --Political gimick

Sarna did not have time to attend 25th anniversary of 1984 anti Sikh genocide.Sarna openly campaigned for brother of Sajjan Kumar .

If Sarna is hobnobbing with Shiela or Congress leaders or secretly with BJP leaders at the expense of the genocide victims for his own personal political or financial gain then what good is he doing for the Sikh commuinty ?

Sarna was the one who was caught hobnobbing with Sirsa dera followers to give clean chit to Gurmeet Ram Rahim.

Sarna is the one who betrayed "Khalsa Action Committee" formed by Bhai Bittu against deravaad.

Being in Punjab how can you be so ignorant about Bhai Bittu's activities before he was arrested ?He was already campaigning against all that you have mentioned.

YouTube - SikhSiyasat's Channel 

It is because of his gaining popularity amongst Punjabi youths that he was arrested in false cases.

The day badal/BJP/RSS/Congress is removed from the Punjab scene all deravaad,drugs etc will be finished but this wont happen as one of these will continue to rule Punjab with the help of the center by hook or by crook as they are their dogs.

All these are same but with different names.Center will continue to leave one of these dogs in Punjab to bite the Sikhs and Punjabis so long as Punjab is not free .


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Feb 27, 2010)

*narayanjot kaur ji,
its really very disturbing 2 ko that sikhism is still often being blackspotted as terrorism.i feel v al kno abt 1984 blue star n more importantly its consequences....
ppl striving for khalistan r tryin 2 divide sikhs which i feel result in innocent sikh killing as v hear abt sikhs in kabul..........
demands n matters r valid but is terroism an answer to dis? is the question of d hour!
regards,jagmeetsingh granthi*


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 27, 2010)

Jagmeet_hazursahib said:


> *narayanjot kaur ji,*
> _*its really very disturbing 2 ko that sikhism is still often being blackspotted as terrorism.i feel v al kno abt 1984 blue star n more importantly its consequences....*_
> _*ppl striving for khalistan r tryin 2 divide sikhs which i feel result in innocent sikh killing as v hear abt sikhs in kabul..........*_
> _*demands n matters r valid but is terroism an answer to dis? is the question of d hour!*_
> _*regards,jagmeetsingh granthi*_


 
Mahakaal daa Sikh granthi,

You are same person who is advocating war between India and Pakistan and take over of whole territory of Pakistan in another post.

This is a typical RSS slogan and that too from Hazur Sahib.What else can we expect from a granthi from Hazur Sahib.Those people who were in doubt about granthis manning Hazur Sahib can now decide for themselves who you people are.

You are sitting far away from Punjab and dont care about the consequences of war for Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs this side and Punjabi Muslims that side.

When people like you say this openly then it is desh bhagti and when others raise their voice for their legitimate demands then that is terrorism.

Whether war happens or not that is a different matter but you have exposed yourself.Further answers will be given to your posts keeping in mind your views and who you are.

You are 21 and you hardly know what has happened from 1984 till today.
You are the last person who should give his views on events in Punjab and about Khalistan.


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Feb 27, 2010)

*dear ki jana ,,,,
u answer very welll.......
kindly clear my doubts if khalistan is formed where will sikhs from states oder den punjab shud stay?
wat abt gurudwaras n places of sikh history,will indian ppls attitude 2wards sikh b d same as humble it is now?
regards,*_*jagmeetsingh,
*_


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 27, 2010)

Jagmeet_hazursahib said:


> *dear ki jana ,,,,*
> _*u answer very welll.......*_
> _*kindly clear my doubts if khalistan is formed where will sikhs from states oder den punjab shud stay?*_
> _*wat abt gurudwaras n places of sikh history,will indian ppls attitude 2wards sikh b d same as humble it is now?*_
> _*regards,*__*jagmeetsingh,*_


 
Jagmeet granthi,

We have many similar nangs(nihangs) in Punjab also who keep saying we will do this and that but when time of action comes they are no where to be seen.

If you have so many guts then why dont you cross over to Pakistan  and then do what you are thinking instead of giving "jhatkas" to innocent "bakraas".

India will continue to be humble to those Sikhs who accept brahman customs and who continue to accept as being part of them.It is only Sikhs in Punjab who are raising the issue of Article 25(b) and Anand Marriage act etc. By not raising voice against these anomalies those Sikhs outside Punjab have already accepted they are hindus and will continue to remain so.

By the way Khalistan is not going to be a theocratic Sikh state only .It will be for all and an example which each country will envy and try to follow.In other words Begumpura.By the way not every Muslim migrated to Pakistan.Those Muslims who thought they would be better off in Hindu India stayed here.

Sikhs stayed behind in India as they were betrayed by the following slogans :

*BEFORE INDEPENDENCE DURING SIKH FREEDOM FIGHTERS IN INDIA*​
<ADDRESS>*“…in future, the Congress shall accept no constitution which does not meet with the satisfaction of the Sikhs” (The Lahore session of the Congress Party. December 31, 1929)*</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>________________________

</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>*“…the brave Sikhs of Punjab are entitled to special considerations. I see nothing wrong in an area set up in the North of India wherein, the Sikhs can also experience the glow of freedom.” (Jawahar Lal Nehru, Lahore Bulletin, January 9, 1930)*</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>_______________________

</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>*“I ask you to accept my word and the Resolution of the Congress that it will not betray a single individual much less a community. Let God be the witness of the bond that binds me and the Congress with you (the Sikhs). *</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>_______________________

</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>*When pressed further Gandhi said that Sikhs would be justified in drawing their swords out of the scabbards as Guru Gobind Singh had asked them to, if Congress would renege on its commitment.” (Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, Young India, March 19, 1931)*</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>_______________________

</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS><ADDRESS>_*“You (Sikhs) take my word that if ever the Congress or I betray you, you will be justified to draw the sword as taught by Guru Gobind Singh” (M. K. Gandhi).” *_</ADDRESS><ADDRESS></ADDRESS>



*AFTER INDEPENDENCE THE SIKHS WERE LIED TO BY THE HINDU LEADERS*
*(TIMES HAD CHANGED)*​ 

_*To preserve the unity of India, if we have to eradicate 2-kror [ 20 millions ] Sikhs, we will do so.*_* (Balram Jhakhar, a colleague of P.V. Narsimharao, the former Indian Prime Minister)*​ 
*” The Sikhs are a lawless people and a menace to the law abiding Hindus … The [Government] should take strict measures against them.” (Pandit Nehru, Indian Prime Minister, on Sikhs)*​ 
*“Kya main taqat dushman (the enemy -the Sikhs) ke haath main de dun (How can I entrust power into the hands of the enemies).” (Jawahar Lal Nehru, 1961)*​ 

*” I hate the very physique of a Sikh because of the turban and beard. ” (Vallabh Bhai Patel, late Indian top politician)*​ 
*“I don’t give a damn if the Golden Temple and whole of Amritsar are destroyed, I want Bhindranwale dead.” (Indira Gandhi, Indian Prime Minister, communicating with Gen. Vaidya during “Operation Blue Star”)*​ 
*“We have broken the back of the Sikhs and we will get them elsewhere.” (M. M. K. Wali, Indian Foreign Secretary, June 7, 1984, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Radio 740, As It Happens)*​ 
*“Let us teach these *******s (the Sikhs) a lesson.” (Rajiv Gandhi, October 31, 1984)*​ 
*“… a threat to the villagers that all males would be killed and their women taken to army camps to breed a new race if there was any militant activity in their village.” (Brig. R. P. Sinha, Indian Army, March 8, 1991)*​ 
*“You do not know the might of our armed forces. We will eliminate 10,000 Sikh youths and the world will know nothing about it.”*_* (Chander Shekhar, former Prime Minister of India, CK, 21st October, 1991)*_​ 

The above clearly shows the attitude the Indian state has for Sikhs.

Another thing these days states are not made by violence but by UN example Kosovo.

We will no longer fall for any trap and we will build Khalistan over the ashes of our 2 lakh shaheeds.

For you they may mean nothing but for us they died as martyrs for the cause of Khalistan.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 27, 2010)

Answer to harbans24j

There is much that is wrong in India insofar the Sikhs are concerned.
But it is also fact that Sikhs are also respected for their hard work, honesty and lively nature throughout India.
After the early nineties, their is no perceptible discrimination against the Sikhs in any field and Sikhs have progressed better than any other other minority community in India.
What the hell is RSS doing in Punjab ?What was the need to form a "Rashtriya Sikh Sangat" when "Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh" existed ?
Hindutva forces know it is not easy to defeat Sikhs with arms as the Indian state has also suffered a lot both physically and financially in the process of eliminating Sikhs so the cunning state has decided to infiltrate every Sikh institution and finish them from within.


I will just reproduce my earlier post. Please try to explain the issues:


<DIR><DIR>_Did Bhindranwale seriously believe that he could fight the might of of the Indian state by being holed up in a few acres of Darbar Sahib?_ 
_Surely he could not have been carried away and imagine himself of doing a repeat of Guru Gobind Singh jis battle at Chamkaur? Anybody can say that these two situations are not comparable._ 
_Did he not realise that Indira Gandhi was just giving him a long rope and wanted to fix him and simultaneously humiliate the Sikhs. Did not Bhindranwale neatly fall into her trap?_ 
_When passengers were selectively being pulled out of buses and murdered in cold blood, why did not Bhindranwale condemn these acts? Is not killing of unarmed innocents of any faith, specifically against the teaching of our Gurus?_ 
_Did not the entire Sikh leadership come out poorly in the whole sorry episode and common Sikhs subjected to entirely avoidable trauma and ridicule worldwide?_

_
</DIR></DIR>_All the above questions have been repeatedly answered all over the net and even by Sant Bhindranwale himself.Do you want me to post those videos again and again ?If I do so then Admin and others in this forum will say Im promoting some agenda. 
But I'll briefly answer some questions.Rest you can find on the net.As you know that I mostly answer questions by giving video proofs as I know people "may" watch the videos but hardly bother to go through a big text,so next time you ask questions be prepared to watch them.I know many forum members don't even bother to watch the videos and keep repeatedly asking silly questions which have already been answered in the videos.


_Nehru and Indra Gandhi harmed the Sikhs a lot but INMO the response of Sikh leadership was without any well thought of Strategy. This was unlike any of our Gurus who were extremely alert to the situations and their actions well thought out and planned._
Who has given you the right to compare Nehru and Indra with our Gurus ?
By doing so you have actually exposed yourself .You are speaking like Advani who calls Indra Gandhi as Durga and our Gurus as ordinary Sants in his latest book.
He further calls Sikhs as only "pagridhari bahman army" who have been formed to protect other hindus(in other words bahmans).He does not recognise Sikhism as a seperate religion.
The fake respect and concern by the hindutva forces for the Sikhs has been exposed bare naked.More so during the last few days.
That is why in a recent function in Uttarakhand which was attended by Akal Takht jathedar Gurbachan Singh and Damdami Taksal leader Dhumma they mentioned it as a meeting between Pagridharis(bahmans) and Sehajdharis(bahmans).
How much more humiliation can self respecting and martial Sikhs tolerate ?


Do you seriously believe, the approach being advocated by you will not lead to a repeat of the above and subject the Sikhs to unnecessary humiliationand ridicule?
When some one is faced with a storm he will try to hide in a safe place instead of exposing himself to the storm.To remain ignorant about the situation around oneself tends a person to commit his previous mistakes again.
So logically he will be prepared for any eventually and not commit the past mistakes.So Sikh community must be vigilant and prepared and learn from the past mistakes.
Sikh community is not facing humiliation at the moment ?The biggest humiliation is even after 25 years of genocide the perpetrators are roaming freely and no court or the fake CBI is able to proseccute them.
Bhai Jinda,Bhai Sukha killed 1 General Vaidya and were put to gallows.Bhai Beant Singh,Bhai Satwant Singh killed 1 Indra Gandhi and were put to gallows with an innocent Kehar Singh.Some 3000(official figures) Sikhs were butchered all over India not a single person is even prosecuted.
Sikhs are still catagorised as Hindus,what more humiliation can a Sikh face ?
Deravaad has crossed all bounds in Punjab with the help of central and Punjab govts to lure Sikhs and Punjabis away from Sikhism.Saudaa Saadh Sirsa dera is a rapist and murderer and has committed blasphemy by acting like Guru Gobind Singh ji and imitating the amrit ceremony but he has not been in jail for even 5 minutes because of govt patronage.Any ordinary person responsible for such heinous crimes would have been hanged.Is this not humiliation of Sikhism ?
Asutosh bihari bhaiyaa openly says he is the Khalsa and Sikhs are Pakistani agents .
Bhaniarawala is responsible for burning Guru Granth Sahib and making his own "Bhavsaagar Granth" is roaming around freely.

Do you seriously believe, the approach being advocated by these people will not lead to a repeat of what happened after 1984 ? 
The literature is being distributed by various hindutva forces against Sikhs .Is that leading to good relations ?


Sikhs in India and abroad especially in US and Canada are on the threshold of making a mark as a most progressive community of the world. IMHO regressive thinking will again put the clock back for the Sikhs and will bring to naught all that has been achieved in the last few years.
Just for your info the biggest advocates of Khalistan are abroad.Indian state may fool those Sikhs who reside within India or they may be under fear but those outside will not be fooled any longer.
Only those spineless Sikhs who consider being called a Hindu better than their self respect or for their personal gains or trade or finance may be supporting the hindutva forces.
Any self respecting Sikh would prefer to die for his unique identity before being forceably labelled as a Hindu or Muslim.


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## spnadmin (Feb 27, 2010)

kee_jaana__mein__kaun ji

Admin is not going to say you are promoting an agenda if you repeat elements of other posts.

Admin will say you are promoting an agenda if you make statements based on extreme opinions without an evidence to back these statements up.

Let's be clear. Admin has enforced TOS for this network. You have hardly been suppressed or censored. And your life-span here as a member is an example of how SPN will  allow diverse opinions on a subject to be expressed

And admin does so -- even when long-time members and those who do not agree with you are obviously irritated and threaten to leave our network.

Let's be true to the facts. No one individual on any side of an issue may transform SPN into a den of vipers like other networks where only one perspective on issues is permitted to be voiced.


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Feb 27, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Jagmeet granthi,
> 
> We have many similar nangs(nihangs) in Punjab also who keep saying we will do this and that but when time of action comes they are no where to be seen.
> 
> ...






* i respct d  shaheeds.they truly deservd a much better life than u or me or  ne1else.......*


*but u ceem 2 b confused mr. watever ur name is.
atleast hazur sahib singhs r in full rehat maryada n they follow d life suggested by guru gobind singh.unlike most of sikhs of punjab where i dunoo how much sikhi persists...
its not ur fault mr. coz u duno hu u r[ki jana main kaun]....
do u kno y guru gobind singh made bhai mani singh n baba deep singh hand write copies of guru granth sahib?
coz when he asked for aad granth sahib akal takht n **singhs **of punjab **refused 2 give Him d **aad granth sahib**....so he had 2 dictate the complete aad granth 2 **bhai mani singh n **baba deep singh...........
i feel u mite hav got ur answer of whu is whu by now.....
n if u care so much abt innocent bakras then perhaps ur knowledge abt jhatka prakash granth n what did sikhs of punjab [sgpc particularly] did with it is worth questioning?
how well do u care of punjab is seen everyday everywhere in india.
eg:issues like saccha sauda dera, betrayer prof. darshan singhs comments on dasham granth,problems of sects bein formed,drug issues,sir katte sikhs,clean shaven sikhs,
instead of dreaming abt khalistan i feel ppl lik u shud try 2 preserve sikhism which is on the verge of existance in punjab.......
but ur mentality 2wards hazur sahib n patna sahib needs 2 b  changed first.............
if u know akali baba awtarsingh ji of dal baba bidhi chand,baba sher singhji of ambala n jathedar iqbal singhji n many other 'sikh sants' all attend the major guru purabs in takht hazur sahib....u wanna kno y because they feel at home here by d love n seva of hazura singhs instead of eye hurting scenes of bemukh sikhs
by creating a khalistan how will u ensure d safety of singhs living in oder such states??
other ppl will attack n try 2 demolish guru dhaams in every part of country like they tried n did in 84 riots....
'i accuse' - a buk by jarnail singh whu hurld shoe at chidambaram is wat u shud read.....only den u'l undrstand how it feels when u suffer without ne faults of their.....
*
*i m a sikh n even i like sikhism 2 prosper....
**try to preserve  khalsa, khalistan apne aap ban jayega...*


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## spnadmin (Feb 27, 2010)

Please use normal fonts and font sizes. Avoid bold as it looks like you are shouting. Please do not post in text message vernacular as few of us can understand what you are saying without having to translate and it takes a long time. Thanks.


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## kds1980 (Feb 27, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> Kee Jaana Ji ,
> IMHO the best solutions to the problems outlined by you like Article 25(B) & Anand Marriage Act to be passed through is to talk to Congress . See now Congress is fully dependent on minority votes like Muslims , Christians , Sikhs , Dalits & also SECULAR HINDUS . Sonia is ready to do anything to please minorities . See how Sikhs have got their reputation soaring in Delhi under the leadership of Paramjit Singh Sarna who in close co-ordination with CM Sheila Dixit has got SECOND LANGUAGE status for Punjabi in Delhi , now Haryana has followed suit . His work in each & every sphere in Delhi is to be seen to be believed nearly all has the bearing of a well oiled corporate organisation well planned , well executed . How much is the population of Sikhs in Delhi ? Less than 10% how did PS Sarna managed it ? It is a near miracle . Akalis / Badal made a huge hue & cry over Punjabi language but did what ? Nothing , the output of all Tamashas , NIL . There is no better time than NOW to remove our all grievances , make a list , ask PS Sarna to head the delegation & mark my words , they will all be accepted even without a slight murmur in the very first meeting. BTW I asked you to suggest DS Bittu to declare party programme ensure that it includes the promise to make Punjab a dry state , free from liqour & drugs . He will be ensured of all votes of womenfolk whose voting percentage was 76% while the corrosponding figure for men was 58% in 2007 Assembly ( State ) Elections . So he will be directly addressing the most major grievance of KING MAKER community which is the WOMEN OF PUNJAB .



Dalbirk ji

Could you please tell me from where you have heard that reputation of sikhs is soaring in Delhi.Much of my Family live in Delhi and everybody has one thing to say that condition of sikhi is getting worse in Delhi day by Day.If you believe that Punjabi language  promotion = sikhi then it is not. One of the factor that today Governments have given second language status to Punjabi could be that Punjabi is no longer considered as language of sikhs only.Thanks to Punjabi singers,Bollywood TV etc

If you ask me then in 30-40 years Sikhs of Delhi are going to be like jains assimilated and confused about their identity


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## harbansj24 (Feb 27, 2010)

> But I'll briefly answer some questions.Rest you can find on the net.As you know that I mostly answer questions by giving video proofs as I know people "may" watch the videos but hardly bother to go through a big text,so next time you ask questions be prepared to watch them.I know many forum members don't even bother to watch the videos and keep repeatedly asking silly questions which have already been answered in the videos.



You have not answered even a single of my "silly" questions. Its no use asking me to see the videos because I do not have the wherewithal to hear them.



> _Nehru and Indra Gandhi harmed the Sikhs a lot but INMO the response of Sikh leadership was without any well thought of Strategy. This was unlike any of our Gurus who were extremely alert to the situations and their actions well thought out and planned._
> Who has given you the right to compare Nehru and Indra with our Gurus ?
> By doing so you have actually exposed yourself



Please read the para carefully and patiently. WHERE HAS THE COMPARISON BEEN MADE BETWEEN OUR GURUS AND NEHRU & INDRA GANDHI? They are not even fit to be compared with a Gursikh let alone our great Gurus.

Our Gurus have taught that a Gursikh should stand like a lotus in a pool of muck and slush. He should try to first reform himself and then try to bring in changes in the society that he is a part of and not run away from it. Our Gurus brought in amazing changes in the decadent society by living in it.

Now if we wish to create a nation of Gursikhs only then what will be left for them to do? 

But first try to be calm, collected and patient by doing Simran as taught by our Gurus. Please try to avoid instantly blasting anybody who engages you in a discussion.

Gurufateh and Chardiankalan to you.


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## dalbirk (Feb 28, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Dalbirk ji
> 
> Could you please tell me from where you have heard that reputation of sikhs is soaring in Delhi.Much of my Family live in Delhi and everybody has one thing to say that condition of sikhi is getting worse in Delhi day by Day.If you believe that Punjabi language  promotion = sikhi then it is not. One of the factor that today Governments have given second language status to Punjabi could be that Punjabi is no longer considered as language of sikhs only.Thanks to Punjabi singers,Bollywood TV etc
> 
> If you ask me then in 30-40 years Sikhs of Delhi are going to be like jains assimilated and confused about their identity


 Kanwardeep ji , What I was referring to was the overall respect of a Sikhi Saroop 
among general public of Delhi . As for PS Sarna he has done a lot of good work like creating good impression of Sikhs overall, building schools,collegesetc. Regarding Sikh identity then if you are living in Punjab then I do not say anymore.Not more than 5% of Sikhs have heard about Sikh Rehat Maryada . The Sikhi Saroop is certainly reserved for people above 50 only . As someone who visits Delhi only for a day in one year this was my observation as a layman . I agree Punjabi is notr 
Punjabi is not equal to Sikhi because it is this Punjabiat only which has dealt the most fatal blow to Sikhi in Punjab


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## kds1980 (Feb 28, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> Kanwardeep ji , What I was referring to was the overall respect of a Sikhi Saroop
> among general public of Delhi . As for PS Sarna he has done a lot of good work like creating good impression of Sikhs overall, building schools,collegesetc. Regarding Sikh identity then if you are living in Punjab then I do not say anymore.Not more than 5% of Sikhs have heard about Sikh Rehat Maryada . The Sikhi Saroop is certainly reserved for people above 50 only . As someone who visits Delhi only for a day in one year this was my observation as a layman . I agree Punjabi is notr
> Punjabi is not equal to Sikhi because it is this Punjabiat only which has dealt the most fatal blow to Sikhi in Punjab



I live in NCR region of Delhi.The majority  sikhs of Delhi simply keep sikhi roop out of pressure from family.many sikh boys trim their beard so neatly that no one could know it.sikh girls in Delhi are marrying Hindu's like epidemic.Every other day I hear from my relatives that so and so girl have married hindu and many times the marriage is arranged.With This type of situation from how much time sikhi could exist?

Coming to college's The sikh college's mainly funded by DSGMC are among some of the worse in Delhi.I am talking it because 3 years back My brother wanted to take admission in Master of computer application and we all searched for a good sikh instituition and there was only 1 where sikh quota was available and it was not at all good reputation wise.

About school's The sikh school's are nowhere in list among top schools of Delhi
They were set up in 60s and 70 s with vision of being top schools but whenever list is published in newspaper about good schools they are not even mentioned.The result of this that good sikh students are running out of them and joining schools like Delhi public school ( DPS) where they get greater exposer to western culture

Let me add more.After breaking of our joint family I talked with some of elders of my family and I was so surprised that they have no sikhi in their heart had they been given chance they could had shed their sikhi roop much earlier.They clearly say that if their children will cut their hair or marry outside religion they will not oppose.May be many people will not like it but what people of Punjab doing is right.If they don't want to practice sikhi then its better to shed the sikhi roop at least it is much better than dikhawa what many people are doing


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## harbansj24 (Feb 28, 2010)

Kanwardeep ji,

I think you cannot generalise. It is a mixed lot. On the whole I tend to agree with dalbirk ji. In comparative terms Sikhs in Delhi and outside Punjab tend to take Sikhi more seriously then those in Punjab. In Delhi too the Sikhs residing in West delhi areas like Punjabi Bagh, Vkas puri, Peetampura, Tilak Nagar etc understand & conform to Sikhi more than in  our South Delhi areas.
I agree with you about the quality of educational institutes run by DSGMC. At one time when my children where studying and Dr. Singha was the Principal, Guru Harkrishan Public School, Vasant Vihar was ranked among the top ten schools of Delhi but now it has fallen on bad days.
PS Sarna is doing some  good work but we live in a complex world and there are bound to be grey areas in his style of functioning too.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 28, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> I live in NCR region of Delhi.The majority sikhs of Delhi simply keep sikhi roop out of pressure from family.many sikh boys trim their beard so neatly that no one could know it.sikh girls in Delhi are marrying Hindu's like epidemic.Every other day I hear from my relatives that so and so girl have married hindu and many times the marriage is arranged.With This type of situation from how much time sikhi could exist?
> 
> Coming to college's The sikh college's mainly funded by DSGMC are among some of the worse in Delhi.I am talking it because 3 years back My brother wanted to take admission in Master of computer application and we all searched for a good sikh instituition and there was only 1 where sikh quota was available and it was not at all good reputation wise.
> 
> ...


 
Whoever is in power will do everything to keep their religion in majority or even destroy other religions by misusing power.

That is why in India a legislation has been made that no Hindu can convert to Sikh or Muslim or Christian without the orders of the DC of that area.

On the other hand Sikh youth including girls are being made to hate the Sikhi swaroop threw various methods including porn,lachar geet,drugs,tv,media,bollywood,deras etc.This is the hidden agenda of the hindutva forces which most people dont realise and take it as a routine affair.

Just 2 days back a pakhandi baba having links with senior leaders including BJP was caught in Delhi running the biggest sex racket in India.Out of the 600 or so girls name figuring in his diaries most of them are Punjabis because Punjabies and Sikhs can be easily lured in the name of liberalism,modernism and open minded ness.
Whereas the hindu girls are undergoing "arms training" under "Durga Vahini"at various camps throughout India.

That is why it has been declared "Raaj bina naa dharam chalay hai.." Although some people even Sikhs may think it as a Khalistani agenda but it is just "common sense".

Without Raaj(power,sovreignity) Sikh dharm nahi chal sakdaa (will diminish).

The other commuinity has Raaj so they can say anything against any one in their rallies and gatherings and are called "Desh Bhagats" when another community like Sikh says even 1/4th of that for his community he is "Desh daa gadaar".

That is derawalas like Ashutosh(again RSS supported) call themselves the real Khalsas and Sikhs as Pakistani agents.

Although Hindu fascists may be thinking of destroying Sikhism but Sikh Raaj will let all flourish under the leadership of Guru Granth Sahib and according to it's principle of "Sarbaat daa bhalaa".That is why a number of Hindus even in Punjab have started supporting Khalsa Raaj which can be seen in various Khalistani rallies.

Sikh Raaj is a must for Sikhism to survive..it's common sense.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 28, 2010)

harbansj24 said:


> You have not answered even a single of my "silly" questions. Its no use asking me to see the videos because I do not have the wherewithal to hear them.
> 
> If you dont have the wherewithal or whatever to see or hear them then that is your problem.
> 
> ...


 
Babaji,

Read my post ahead.

You are talking of a state of Gursikhs ?At the moment it is the question of survival of Sikhism.All Sikhs will never become Gursikhs till power is in our hand.

That is why Khalistan will be formed first and then we make legislations for the promotion of Sikhi.Any one standing in favour of human rights and freedom will support Khalistan.That is why a number of low and middle class hindus in Punjab have started supporting Khalistan.

*The following videos which you call Khalistani propoganda and for which you dont have the wherewithal or courage to hear mentions the reasons why Khalistan is needed :*

YouTube- Khalistan Speech-12 February 2010---Part 1

YouTube- Khalistan Speech-12 February 2010---Part 2

At the moment Sikhs dont have sovereignity(power to rule) that is why dogs of the center and hindutva forces like Badal,Amrinder,Bhattal,fake communists,derawalas etc are left open in Punjab to do everything so that Sikhism does not flourish or is in fact destroyed and Sikhs are made to turn away from Sikhi and indulge in brahmanical customs with the help of drugs,lachar songs,porn,bollywood etc.

The reason why we are seeing RSS and hindutva interfernce in all our Sikh institutions is because power rests with the majority they can do anything by hook or crook to thwart any legislation or rule which does not confirm with their principles.

Now dont start saying that there is no such interference.

Some Sikhs dont even realise that the festival which some of them(we dont) are going to celebrate tommorow ie Holi has nothing to do with Sikhism.

Brahmvaadi customs have been introduced into our lives ever since 1947 that Sikhs dont even know whatever they do daily in their lives confirms with Sikhism taught by our Gurus or not.

Sorry if I have hurt your feelings but truth will remain truth and has to come out one day.


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## kds1980 (Feb 28, 2010)

> That is why in India a legislation has been made that no Hindu can convert to Sikh or Muslim or Christian without the orders of the DC of that area.



Could you please show me where it is written that no Hindu can convert to sikhism in Indian law?


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 28, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Could you please show me where it is written that no Hindu can convert to sikhism in Indian law?


 
You are already a Hindu under Indian constitution.


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## harbansj24 (Feb 28, 2010)

Do not worry, you do not hurt me at all! 
I can only wish Gurfateh to you.


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## kds1980 (Feb 28, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> You are already a Hindu under Indian constitution.



Please reply to my question.

And forget about constituition what important what sikhs believe in their heart
As I said there are truck load of turbaned sikhs who believe that they are no different then hindu's,What you are going to do about them? 

Also you mentioned about girls trained  as durga vahini's.Let me tell you Hindu girls equally or if not more westernised than sikh girls it is only very few small town hindu girls that are in RSS O/W majority of girls in India dream about shahrukh, salman aamir Khan and they are muslims not Hindu's.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 28, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Please reply to my question.
> 
> And forget about constituition what important what sikhs believe in their heart
> As I said there are truck load of turbaned sikhs who believe that they are no different then hindu's,What you are going to do about them?
> ...


 
Why should I forget about constitution ?You are already a pagridhari Hindu according to the constitution.

I have not seen such Sikh turbaned drivers saying we are proud to be hindus.If a hindu is wearing a parna and calling himself a Sikh then that is different.

Where are Sikh versions of Durga Vahini running?Why are Durga Vahini and arms training camps for Hindutva forces running when India has police,CRPF,army?What is the purpose of Durga Vahini and the armed hindutva gangs ?

What sort of muslims these actors are we know.

We are not concerned about non Sikh girls.Hinduism is no religion and is based on made up stories 

RSS is more dangerous than you can ever imagine in your dreams.The only thing is they dont do anything openly and do mostly covertly.You are already under the influence of RSS the way you keep arguing with someone speaking for Sikhi.

The reason why RSS camps are still not running"openly" in Punjab is due to our Kharkoo brothers not because of pagridhari bahmans residing mostly outside Punjab.We know what these RSS goons were doing in Punjab before they were hit in some camps in Punjab including Moga.

These are our heroes and not the pagridhari bahmans who keep licking the feet of the bahmanvaadi forces and keep comprising the unique Sikhi principles in the name of fake unity,national integration(a myth),liberalism etc or for saving their own skins :

YouTube- GuGGu DON

YouTube- ajit poohle di aakhri video


Fake pagridhari bahman,police cat and bootlicker of RSS,killer of thousands of innocent Sikhs nang Ajit Poohla burnt on 29 August same day he burnt a family with woman and a handicapped girl.Our heros who were not pagridhari Bhai Navtej Singh Guggu and Bhai Harchand Singh sent this butcher to hell.

Ajit Singh Poohla - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

Sikhs of Punjab will not rest till all the war criminals of the war between Center and the Sikh nation are bought to book and punished.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 28, 2010)

This is what the govt mouthpiece "The Tribune" newspaper is writing about the Khalistani Conference which was held on occassion of Hola Mohalla at Anandpur Sahib ,Punjab on 28 February,2010 :

Anandpur Sahib, February 28
The issue of SGPC elections reverberated at the political conferences held on occasion of Hola Mohalla today. While the SAD-BJP leadership came down heavily on the Congress for trying to cerate a rift in Sikhs, absence of the Congress top brass at its conference venue was writ large over the occasion. *SAD (Amritsar) managed to pull a big crowd with little space to stand in the huge pandal put up on the occasion.*


We know every other newspaper of India will ignore this news but truth remains truth.The more the bahmanvaadi media,Punjab govt and GOI tries to censor and suppress such news and the reality the more determined Punjabis will become for self determination.

Pictures and videos of the occassion are awaited...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 1, 2010)

1. ALL SIKHS get married under the HINDU Marriage Act. The Anand Marriage Act passed in 1925 was never activated...and NOT a single sikh ever got married under that.

2. ALL SIKH properties get divided under the Hindu Property diviision act.

3. Under Article 25 all sikhs etc are Hindus.

If i am wrong..please correct.


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## kds1980 (Mar 1, 2010)

harbansj24 said:


> Kanwardeep ji,
> 
> I think you cannot generalise. It is a mixed lot. On the whole I tend to agree with dalbirk ji. In comparative terms Sikhs in Delhi and outside Punjab tend to take Sikhi more seriously then those in Punjab. In Delhi too the Sikhs residing in West delhi areas like Punjabi Bagh, Vkas puri, Peetampura, Tilak Nagar etc understand & conform to Sikhi more than in  our South Delhi areas.
> I agree with you about the quality of educational institutes run by DSGMC. At one time when my children where studying and Dr. Singha was the Principal, Guru Harkrishan Public School, Vasant Vihar was ranked among the top ten schools of Delhi but now it has fallen on bad days.
> PS Sarna is doing some  good work but we live in a complex world and there are bound to be grey areas in his style of functioning too.




Harbans ji

I agree with you I should not generalise.The west Delhi sikhs are more in sikhi because they are middle class while we all know south Delhi is a place of now very rich people.

And yes I too studied in same Ghps for few years and my late sister studied in it for many years and at that time school was really great and we all hoped that the school will become much better in future  but opposite happened.My younger cousin is still in the same school and at the time of his admission his mother was not much happy because all his cousins from mother's side were saying that get him admitted to DPS Don't go For GHPS  .


Also we should not forget that No.1 blame for not rehabilitating and not getting justice for 1984 should be put on DSGMC and Sarna's role  in that is highly questionable.

The comparision of Delhi and Punjab sikhs is not O.K  because Delhi is city where people get many facilities while Punjab is still an agrarian state with large rural population.It is easy for Badal to befool and loot sikhs of rural Punjab than looting educated sikhs of Delhi.Anyway my only point was that may be condition of sikhi is better in Delhi than Punjab but in no way sikhs of Delhi could be considered as role models or we can say that sikhi is flourishing in Delhi.
The biggest threat for Delhi sikhs is inter religious marriage's which is more dangerous than anything because it will ultimately lead them to assimilation in Hinduism


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## dalbirk (Mar 2, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Harbans ji
> 
> I agree with you I should not generalise.The west Delhi sikhs are more in sikhi because they are middle class while we all know south Delhi is a place of now very rich people.
> 
> ...


Kanwardeep Ji ,
              This inter-religious marriages are happening due to lack of knowledge regarding Sikh principles , beliefs & Sikh Rehat Maryada amongst a large no of Sikhs in all over India not only Delhi . Even the elderly persons do not know anything about Sikhi . It is IMHO due lack of religious education in Sikh schools , lack of emphasis on Sikh education from parents to children especially post 1984 due to some mistaken beliefs that keeping them way from Sikhi's education will bring them closer to parents as well as to the mainstream Indian secular lifestyle . Actually the opposite is happening , the children in absence of religious education are very less spiritually inclined hence more into eating , drinking, making merry routine where they have no regards for parents . Girls are more prone to brainwash due to media effect which is clean shaven means glamorous & more satisfying sexually . Even when things do not work out they are at a loss to know what is the right way . Where did they go wrong . Parents are virtually begging to children for attention for the fear of social stigma . 
            In 2007 when Dera Sacha Sauda crisis hit Punjab , I wrote to SGPC & visited Makkar personally in his home ( he is our neighbour ) wherein I suggested them that GURMAT PRAKASH the monthly magazine of SGPC be posted free for whole life ( lifetime cost Rs.200) to all of 3.6 million ( 36 lac ) Sikh families of Punjab . The total cost will come to about 72 crore rupees ( 15 Million US dollars ) which can be furthur divided into five years ie 14.5 crores ( 3 Million USD) . this way each & every Sikh household will be free of all maladies like Dera Waad , Babawaad / Santwaad , Alcohal , Drugs , Apostateness for ever & Sikhi will start growing by leaps & bounds . It is my belief that whole of the Indian Dalits as well as lower middle classes can be brought to Sikhi fold in a matter of few decades , Sikh population will swell by over 250 million from 25 million presently if we utilize the available resources with us . But sadly nothing came out of that . It was much late that I realised that Badal is the exact cause of all the problems Sikhs are facing today . However it is my belief that if SIS-GANJ the monthly magazine of DSGMC ( lifetime cost Rs.500 ) is distributed to approximated 4 lac ( 400,000 ) Sikh households in Delhi & NCR then each & every problem will vanish instead Sikhi will start growing like a PLAGUE , CANCER ( forgive my choice of words ) . The cost will come to about 20 crores ( 4 Million  USD ) which can to spread to five years ie 4 crores annually ( 800,000 USD) . Try going personally to PS Sarna 's office in DSGMC headquarter in Gurudwara Rakabganj , I'm sure you'll be surprised at the ease which you can approach all of them . Take a letter outlining this as well all other suggestions you can think of , I'm sure something positive will surely come out of it .


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Mar 2, 2010)

dalbirk said:


> Kanwardeep Ji ,
> This inter-religious marriages are happening due to lack of knowledge regarding Sikh principles , beliefs & Sikh Rehat Maryada amongst a large no of Sikhs in all over India not only Delhi . Even the elderly persons do not know anything about Sikhi . It is IMHO due lack of religious education in Sikh schools , lack of emphasis on Sikh education from parents to children especially post 1984 due to some mistaken beliefs that keeping them way from Sikhi's education will bring them closer to parents as well as to the mainstream Indian secular lifestyle . Actually the opposite is happening , the children in absence of religious education are very less spiritually inclined hence more into eating , drinking, making merry routine where they have no regards for parents . Girls are more prone to brainwash due to media effect which is clean shaven means glamorous & more satisfying sexually . Even when things do not work out they are at a loss to know what is the right way . Where did they go wrong . Parents are virtually begging to children for attention for the fear of social stigma .
> In 2007 when Dera Sacha Sauda crisis hit Punjab , I wrote to SGPC & visited Makkar personally in his home ( he is our neighbour ) wherein I suggested them that GURMAT PRAKASH the monthly magazine of SGPC be posted free for whole life ( lifetime cost Rs.200) to all of 3.6 million ( 36 lac ) Sikh families of Punjab . The total cost will come to about 72 crore rupees ( 15 Million US dollars ) which can be furthur divided into five years ie 14.5 crores ( 3 Million USD) . this way each & every Sikh household will be free of all maladies like Dera Waad , Babawaad / Santwaad , Alcohal , Drugs , Apostateness for ever & Sikhi will start growing by leaps & bounds . It is my belief that whole of the Indian Dalits as well as lower middle classes can be brought to Sikhi fold in a matter of few decades , Sikh population will swell by over 250 million from 25 million presently if we utilize the available resources with us . But sadly nothing came out of that . It was much late that I realised that Badal is the exact cause of all the problems Sikhs are facing today . However it is my belief that if SIS-GANJ the monthly magazine of DSGMC ( lifetime cost Rs.500 ) is distributed to approximated 4 lac ( 400,000 ) Sikh households in Delhi & NCR then each & every problem will vanish instead Sikhi will start growing like a PLAGUE , CANCER ( forgive my choice of words ) . The cost will come to about 20 crores ( 4 Million USD ) which can to spread to five years ie 4 crores annually ( 800,000 USD) . Try going personally to PS Sarna 's office in DSGMC headquarter in Gurudwara Rakabganj , I'm sure you'll be surprised at the ease which you can approach all of them . Take a letter outlining this as well all other suggestions you can think of , I'm sure something positive will surely come out of it .


 
Who is responsible for SGPC not promoting Sikhi ?

RSS as SGPC is under Badal who is under RSS/BJP.RSS/BJP would never like true Sikhi to be taught or promoted.They would like their own version of "Hinduised Sikhi" to be promoted.That is why this sort of Sikhi which besides making Sikhs as Hindus also promotes anti Muslim and anti Christianity thought via their own RSS sansthaans particularly "Vidya Bharti" etc which is now opening branches in Punjab villages.
Successive Punjab govts have been giving aid and fund to these organisations in the name of fake hindu Sikh unity and fake national integration(which infact means integration into the hindutva mainstram)

Sikhs are "neither Hindu nor Muslim" but RSS wants Sikhs to call themselves Hindu and become anti Muslims and help them in their dirty work of suppressing and killing minorities Muslims,Christians and even true Sikhs(whom they have named Khalistanis/Pakistani agents).

Without Sovereignity(which is a must to preserve our unique Sikh identity) the remaining Sikhs will also go the Hindu way either through coercion,persuasion,legislation made in favour of hindutva forces,making Sikh children hate Sikhi by misusing the media etc.

After Sikh Raaj a full stop will be placed on such activities and other low caste hindus,dalits etc will "voluntarily" adopt Sikhism which is "IMPOSSIBLE" under the present system no matter how much good you keep thinking about this.


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Apr 20, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> koi kisi ko raaj naa deh hai
> jo leh hai nijj bal say leh hai



Gurfateh,

First you are being racist with the sikhs of Hazur Sahib and now you are writing incorrect scripts from Dasham Granth Sahib...you should atleast realize reciting incorrect words from gurubani is like hurting the Guru itself...

The correct script is as follows:

Shastran Ke Adheen Hai Raaj,
Raaj Bina Nahi Dharam Chale Hai|
Dharam Bina Sabh Dale Male Hai,
Jo Lavey Nij Bal Se Lavey||​
It means:
Rule (Raaj) is always dependent on arms (Shastar),
And Without Rule (Raaj) No Dharam (Religion) Can Prevail|
Without Dharam (Religion) Everyone Becomes Dale Male (Filthy),
So Whatever One Wishes To Achieve,Can Achieve Only On The Basis Of His/Her Bal (Power)


It is also for people who are against Guru Gobindsingh's Own Baanii.e. Dasham Granth Sahib.


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## spnadmin (Apr 20, 2010)

jagmeet ji

Please explain, for me and the others who might not grasp you meaning, how the verse you quoted from Dasam Granth is connected to the thread topic. 

Nowhere in this thread did he say,_ koi kisi ko raaj naa deh hai 
jo leh hai nijj bal say leh hai_. Nowhere in this thread did he indict Hazoor Sahib

This is a synopsis of his remarks prior to yours - in a nutshell.




 RSS as SGPC is under Badal
They would like their own version  of "Hinduised Sikhi" to be promoted.
 Successive Punjab govts have been giving aid and fund to these  organisations in the name of fake hindu Sikh unity and fake national  integration(which infact means integration into the hindutva mainstram)
 Sikhs are "neither Hindu nor Muslim" but RSS wants Sikhs to call  themselves Hindu and become anti Muslims and help them in their dirty  work of suppressing and killing minorities Muslims,Christians and even  true Sikhs(whom they have named Khalistanis/Pakistani agents).
 Without Sovereignity the remaining Sikhs will also go the Hindu way
 After Sikh Raaj low caste hindus,dalits etc will "voluntarily" adopt Sikhism
 
I also am not sure -- maybe reading a few more times will help -- how  Kee_mein_jaana_kaun ji is a racist "against Hazoor Sahib." Or how the  verse is related to his comments. Would you be so kind as to elaborate?


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## Jagmeet_hazursahib (Apr 21, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> jagmeet ji
> 
> Please explain, for me and the others who might not grasp you meaning, how the verse you quoted from Dasam Granth is connected to the thread topic.
> 
> ...



Gurfateh,
i was browsing the pages when i found the verse and i thought of correct the script from gurubani.....i dont think i did any thing wrong by correcting the script..

and as far as the racism issue is concerned,you can browse this topics pages no.5,6 and 7 where ki_jaana_main_kaun calls me :
1. Mahakal da Granthi,
2.Accuses me of killing of bakras(Jhatkas) as if i m myself performing it.
3.Granthi from Hazur_Sahib as if the people of Hazur_sahib are a burden on Sikhism...
all above things makes me feel his comments as racist.....
i agree the reply was not related to the topic or his latest post but all i wanted to do is correct the verses from Dasham Granth because the verse he posted is from Dasham Granth but was incomplete and incorrect.....
i only replied a corrected the verse from gurubani.


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## spnadmin (Apr 21, 2010)

jagmeet ji

I have to say that after re-reading those pages, it looks as if kee-jaana-mein-kaun was for the most part taking my head off not yours, and at times he was also going after forum member harbhans ji. My memory of those conversations was that I, not you, was considered falling far short of the mark wheneverI asked him not to paint everyone with the same brush of stupidity, treachery and sympathy for RSS. It was a very belligerent discussion. I am still perplexed, but can see why you had the strong reaction that you did have. Not an easy conversation to read. Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail.


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2013)

Any statement in support of armed insurrection is contravened by the laws of most countries where SPN is accessible. In addition, our TOS contravene it. It is hardly different from supporting the idea of burning down places of worship if you don't agree with their religion. You don't have to actually do it to step over the line.

Don't try this again or play _a day in court _with me.


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