# Ignorant Person Giving Sikhi A Bad Name. Please Comment!



## sikhimylife (Jan 1, 2011)

I actually made a account on this website to show how ignorant some people like this women are. Shes a former "Sikh" and converted to Christianity who doesn't know an IOTA of Sikhism. Shes telling people that we worship our Gurus and believe in evil spirits! She said our Dharma is full of RITUALS! When our Gurus stressed so much to abandon ritualistic practices! Then she goes on telling everyone how evil her parents are and basically blaming it on Sikhism! Ignorance is my worst pet peeve, I mean it's ok if she found God in Christ but she has no right to make Sikhi look bad! Please comment on the Youtube video! Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh! 

YouTube        - Raj Jarrett - Testimony 'From Sikhism to Christianity'
swordfight


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 1, 2011)

*Re: Ignorant women giving Sikhi a bad name, please comment!*

Calm your horses. Why are you taking everything she said about _*her family*_ so personally?


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## sikhimylife (Jan 1, 2011)

*Re: Ignorant Person Givng Sikhi a bad name, Please Comment!*

Its the lack of knowledge of Sikhi what I'm taking personally, not about her family. I understand her family doesn't treat her well but she's making it look like that its because of Sikhi her family is like that. She said we worship spirits, we worship our Gurus and follow rituals. That is what she told people and that is false in Sikhism.


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## findingmyway (Jan 1, 2011)

*Re: Ignorant Person Givng Sikhi a bad name, Please Comment!*

Sikhimylife ji,
I have changed the title of this thread as the way it was reflected badly on all women. The fact she is a woman is neither here nor there as you will find many examples of males doing similar things. Thank you for your understanding. This video shows the power of the people doing the converting and it shows the lack of knowledge within our own community that she believes these things.


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## sikhimylife (Jan 1, 2011)

My mistake, thank you for doing that!


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 1, 2011)

Did she mention Sikhism?

If, instead of pointing fingers, we look inward and mend ourselves, then she would not have the chance to say those things. Many SIkh families do behave the way she described. Use the criticism to correct yourself.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the focus is always one's own ego.


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## spnadmin (Jan 1, 2011)

sikhimylife ji

From your account id it is clear how deeply you love Sikhi. There is a way to take your next steps to do your part to reverse the damage you feel has been done.

This pathetic young woman is not alone in feeling deep alienation from the message of Guru Nanak. We see at least one person a week here at SPN who is in despair because they feel stuck in a world where traditions are used to do harm not good. These people then want to give up the Sikh way of life. And  they put the rest of us on the defensive because of their personal experiences. They may convert to Christianity or Islam. They may declare themselves atheists. Or they may linger around to challenge symbols and practices of the Sikh faith.  It is a pattern that can be predicted 100 percent of the time.

Bur see how stuck in personal misery she is. Look at how contorted her face is with anger and look at the aggressive body language in the video. Anger is her only defense against the negativity - which she sponged up from a lifetime of negative examples. The whole ball game that we see with too many youth today.

How about you? This may sound like a box full of sugary emotions. When Sikhi is your Life, it means that you are the one who has a strong sense in your own life of  the love of Waheguru. To know this is your "great good fortune" as gurbani says over and over again. Blessed by that great good fortune,  your path can only be to teach others how to find what you have within. Be energetic about it. I am so serious. Find opportunities to teach Sikhi, not by preaching but by example:  first lesson of which is inner clam, second lesson of which is compassion and love, third lesson of which is to be present for other people. If even one person is rescued from anger by your example then you will be the Guru's Sikh in this shabad:

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
jo dheesai gurasikharraa this niv niv laago paae jeeo ||
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet.


ਆਖਾ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਜਣੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
aakhaa birathhaa jeea kee gur sajan dhaehi milaae jeeo ||
I tell to him the pain of my soul, and beg him to unite me with the Guru, my Best Friend.

ਸੋਈ ਦਸਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਅਨਤ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
soee dhas oupadhaesarraa maeraa man anath n kaahoo jaae jeeo ||
I ask that he impart to me such an understanding, that my mind will not go out wandering anywhere else.


ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਤੈ ਕੂੰ ਡੇਵਸਾ ਮੈ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਦੇਹੁ ਬਤਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
eihu man thai koon ddaevasaa mai maarag dhaehu bathaae jeeo ||
I dedicate this mind to you. Please, show me the Path to God.

And seek opportunities for outreach and seva *as a Sikh *to be that example. Remember it was the sevadars not preachers of United Sikhs who were told by the mayor of earthquake ravaged capital city of Haiti - We want you to stay! You have really made a difference!  She did not say that lightly.


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 1, 2011)

Its obvious she didnt grow up in a Sikh household (by what she describes of her family's conduct), so her view on the Sikh lifestyle is very distorted. And its best to ignore it. 

However, with all the hardships and hate she has dealt with, its nice to see she at least embraced God (or is attempting to) in some form. At least she didnt turn around and become like her abusers, she found some way out. 

I gotta give her props for resilience, she still managed to create a life for herself, and thats not easy to do when your own family treats you so horribly.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 1, 2011)

I do believe it is hard to tell people from appearances alone.  I do not know her family and from her description they may be outwardly sikh with little sikhi internalized.  I believe it is very likely that all the family relatives and community at large may be supporting the family because,



She married a non-sikh and the dogma of a sikh girl marrying a black christian male
However,


Only she and her family know the truth about her allegations of,



Sexual abuse
Persecution from childhood
Threat of violence
Demeaning comments about the cheaper marriages as being less expensive in India
I have no comments other than to say it is so sad even if these are fraction of a % true
 
 
When watching the video it appears she is well spoken and a strong speaker and she got those capabilities through her family


It wouldn't be too difficult to visualize such a family having other strong people with similar characteristics
Whereas these are good qualities when used in right ways these can also be extremely counter-productive and damaging to people
 
Overall I don't believe she has said too much bad about sikhism per se.  I agree with BhagatSingh's observations that it should give us pause to think.  What she says does happen but her generalization is wrong.

Some of the things to think of,


Girls infanticide
at birth
abortions
My mother used to tell me that any time a girl was born there was this lady in her village who could be invited by people not happy and she will kill them at birth
 
 
Cultural treatment of girls (sorry to generalize as it is not true for all but it does happen quite commonly)
When a boy is having some fun during his teen years it is called fooling around and saying is ... koi nahin vaddah hoke theek ho jayugah
If a girl did this, she will be persecuted as it becomes a case of respect and social stature of the family
 
This is a huge topic, so before taking any further space I would wait, search and seek other wisdom on this board.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:  Great post by Bhagatsingh in the following on saying thinking someone good versus bad,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...-one-becomes-confused-suffers.html#post139414


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## Randip Singh (Jan 2, 2011)

Dear oh dear, this poor woman has had some serious abuse, and her family seem like nutters!!


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 2, 2011)

She mentions Sikhi very little, she talks much more of spirits and demons, and their influence in her family. The two cannot co-exist. Where there is light of God, there is nothing else. 

jah mahaa bha-i-aan doot jam dalai.  
tah kayval naam sang tayrai chalai. 

Im curious, what does "doot jam" refer to, in the above verse from Sukhmani Sahib?


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> jah mahaa bha-i-aan doot jam dalai.
> tah kayval naam sang tayrai chalai.
> 
> Im curious, what does "doot jam" refer to, in the above verse from Sukhmani Sahib?



Navdeep ji

You have put your finger on another unfortunate cultural practice -- that of throwing out a couplet of gurbani in order to teach a moral lesson --- typically ending up as missing the point completely.

I have myself been threatened on the Internet several times with these two particular lines from Sukhmani Sahib. 

Imagine! The sweetness of Guruji being used this way.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 2, 2011)

Another way of looking at it is,

*====================================================*

_We need to enjoy the beautiful garden, orchard or bagh of sikhi.  It is good to understand each and every tree, fruit, flower and leaf.  But never to lose sight of the whole._
*====================================*​
Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2011)

*Full shabad*

ਜਹ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਮੀਤ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥
jeh maath pithaa suth meeth n bhaaee ||
Where there is no mother, father, children, friends or siblings

ਮਨ ਊਹਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
man oohaa naam thaerai sang sehaaee ||
O my mind, there, only the Naam, the Name of the Lord, shall be with you as your help and support.


ਜਹ ਮਹਾ ਭਇਆਨ ਦੂਤ ਜਮ ਦਲੈ ॥
jeh mehaa bhaeiaan dhooth jam dhalai ||
Where the great and terrible Messenger of Death shall try to crush you,

ਤਹ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਚਲੈ ॥
theh kaeval naam sang thaerai chalai ||
there, only the Naam shall go along with you.


ਜਹ ਮੁਸਕਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਅਤਿ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
jeh musakal hovai ath bhaaree ||
Where the obstacles are so very heavy,

ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਧਾਰੀ ॥
har ko naam khin maahi oudhhaaree ||
the Name of the Lord shall rescue you in an instant.

ਅਨਿਕ ਪੁਨਹਚਰਨ ਕਰਤ ਨਹੀ ਤਰੈ ॥
anik punehacharan karath nehee tharai ||
अनिक पुनहचरन करत नही तरै ॥
By performing countless religious rituals, you shall not be saved.

ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਾਪ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥
har ko naam kott paap pareharai ||
The Name of the Lord washes off millions of sins.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ॥
guramukh naam japahu man maerae ||
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, O my mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੂਖ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥੧॥
naanak paavahu sookh ghanaerae ||1||
O Nanak, you shall obtain countless joys. ||1||


When this particular couplet is thrown out, out of context, it looks as if Guruji is threatening us for misdeeds

*ਜਹ ਮਹਾ ਭਇਆਨ ਦੂਤ ਜਮ ਦਲੈ ॥
jeh mehaa bhaeiaan dhooth jam dhalai ||
Where the great and terrible Messenger of Death shall try to crush you,

ਤਹ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਚਲੈ ॥
theh kaeval naam sang thaerai chalai ||
there, only the Naam shall go along with you.*

Inside the context of the saloka what you can see is that dhotth jam  is something far more intensely personal and internal, it is a very psychological image, of the kind of thing that crushes the "spirit" at death when we have not connected with our true identity in life. Naam either grows in the heart in life and fills it,  or the heart goes empty to death. This point is important because the juxtaposition of images describes the two poles of inner self that are possible at death. 



> ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਧਾਰੀ ॥
> : Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33794-ignorant-person-giving-sikhi-bad-name.html
> har ko naam khin maahi oudhhaaree ||
> the Name of the Lord shall rescue you in an instant



One can die completely crushed by the angel of death, so to speak, emotionally annihilated; versus the alternative which is to die "spirited" by the Naam. So sad that the habits of culture can destroy such a powerful meaning.


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm sorry I had no idea it was offensive to use a couplet without the full shabad. It wasnt my intent to ignore the whole, (or to use Gurbani an a "threat"?) but to offer an avenue for her particular situation. Shes obviously suffered a lot at the hands of her family but I found her reasoning very interesting. She describes the root of it as a spiritual issue. 

I was referring to her family's experience with demons and such, and how those spiritual issues can be *cured by Gurbani*. So I was curious if "doot jam" had anything to do with her situation (my punjabi translates "jam" to bad spirit) ... and the solution provided for it: naam. *

*Thank you for providing your understanding, in the larger context. And I apologize for the improper use of Gurbani, I only did it to hopefully provide some solution to her issues...


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2011)

navdeep ji

No need to apologize. I actually understood what you were doing and why you did it. I actually saw you zeroing in on a big part of the problem faced by youth today. Lack of context for why we do what we do. My criticism was directed at the general tendency to do this. In a way I wonder how much of that blurting out of tuks was part of the young woman's unhappy life. And thanks for continuing this conversation. Giving me a chance to explain.


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 2, 2011)

"In a way I wonder how much of that blurting out of tuks was part of the young woman's unhappy life."

If she was in a household where she claims she was physically beaten, sexually abused from age 5 to 18, I would be very surprised if her family saw being Sikh as anything more than a label.


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> "In a way I wonder how much of that blurting out of tuks was part of the young woman's unhappy life."
> 
> If she was in a household where she claims she was physically beaten, sexually abused from age 5 to 18, I would be very surprised if her family saw being Sikh as anything more than a label.



That is exactly what I wanted to say ... After 18 years of nothing but open and veiled threats.. threats followed up with abuse...or promises of being abused...when you are even told you can be threatened by Waheguru ji .. what happens to a person's soul?


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 3, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> That is exactly what I wanted to say ... After 18 years of nothing but open and veiled threats.. threats followed up with abuse...or promises of being abused...when you are even told you can be threatened by Waheguru ji .. what happens to a person's soul?


If she sticks to her path nothing happens to her soul.  I think she has very strong soul to survive and bounce back in life.

True Sikhi should have helped and not hinder her internal discovery of God.  For the time being it did not work and she has accepted an external God with her reduced internal strength.   Perhaps it will provide her with a recpite of a peaceful moment and do better in life for herself and her family and daughter.

Life is a complex puzzle.  Who knows what tomorrow brings!  May be in a few years her daughter will rebel against Christianity and embrace true Sikhi.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 3, 2011)

Actually after watching the video thoroughly I think she maybe actually lying. Why?

She says her parents abused her because she was not born a boy? Yet then she says she has two brothers and two sisters? That makes no sense to me. Even the most sexist of Sikh families who want boys would be happy with two boys?


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 3, 2011)

I most humbly submit that we lock this thread as nothing more good is going to be coming out from what I have seen.  The truths are only known to the girl and her family and the rest of us are kind of playing God based on a Youtube video.

Let us respect the family and the girl's privacy unless they seek our advice or counsel.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Spiritual (May 24, 2012)

some of the things that she has said are not true where as some parts probably are. She was shown two guys to which she agreed to marry them. It wasn't forced at all but at the same time she was messing around with a married muslim guy. Also yeah her family did believe in some spirit stuff. There's allways two sides to a story at the moment she is making it all one sided. She also claims her family are looking for her up until this day, that is not true at all. They know where she lives but don't have or want anything to do with her. They have there own life and she has hers.


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## BaljinderS (May 24, 2012)

oh man.. not sure where to start with this one..  I think we all agree that all mumbo jumbo she is saying is nothing to do with Sikhism.  Her body language tells me that she is very confused and needs something to blame.  I think her family is to blame here (her mother more than the father).  I actually feel sorry for her.  She clearly has been messed around with, to take a such step to tell others about her confused state.  This is just the beggining of her confusion, she will be even more confused in years to come peacesign


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## TigerStyleZ (May 24, 2012)

Ha Ha! This video make me laugh! What about all these pedophile priests who abuse little kids in their "church"? This girl is so ignoroant and dumb - in every "religion" there are black sheeps , NO! in the WHOLEhuman race there are many BLACK SHEEPS.
Maybe she is telling the truth maybe not? We don´t know... This is just a problem with her "familiy", this is no religious problem or whatever.


But like some wise person said :

Ignorance is a part of the human being.


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## Ishna (May 24, 2012)

BaljinderS said:


> oh man.. not sure where to start with this one..  I think we all agree that all mumbo jumbo she is saying is nothing to do with Sikhism.  Her body language tells me that she is very confused and needs something to blame.  I think her family is to blame here (her mother more than the father).  I actually feel sorry for her.  She clearly has been messed around with, to take a such step to tell others about her confused state.  This is just the beggining of her confusion, she will be even more confused in years to come peacesign


Why her mother more than her father?


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## Ishna (May 24, 2012)

BaljinderS said:


> ...  I think her family is to blame here (her mother more than the father).



You really need to back this up with some solid rationale because there is no information in that clip to suggest her mother is more to blame than her father.

Please explain where you get that idea from.  

swordfight


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## BaljinderS (May 24, 2012)

Ishna said:


> You really need to back this up with some solid rationale because there is no information in that clip to suggest her mother is more to blame than her father.
> 
> Please explain where you get that idea from.
> 
> swordfight



Good question. Okay, I will try to explain :redturban:

Mother is a teacher to a child even before the child is born and she is a teacher to her child for most of their lives.  A child always looks up to their mother and picks her behaviour, her habits etc  The law is always on the mothers side if parents are separated etc..    

In this case, if the mother had actually spent the time and shown her the true values of Sikhi then it would have never come to this.  I am not saying a father doesn't have any role in this, he does indeed.  A mother has very powerful influence over her children, I think most philosophers agree on this fact.

Hopefully this makes sense , as I am no philsopher by long shot   Hope you get I am trying to say..


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## TigerStyleZ (May 24, 2012)

Brother, please don´t blame it on to the mother - both parents are "guilty". The father just the same as the mother.  In this video I can clearly see, this is an lack of education about Sikhi - she is just convey the "values "(if you can call it values) she learned.If this really happend what she says - then both parents are ignorant and she undertook this ignorance. Her psych is just deep damaged. She said that the we worshipped our Gurus, but in the same way she is worshipping jesus? Any sense? However both parent parts play a huge role - I am coming more after my father - who does not believe in hinduistic dogmas - but my mother somehow believes in such things - but they have nothing to do with sikhism. Sometimes I make fun of her when she says you can´t buy iron on tuesday - and she gets angry.  Most of my time I watched my father - not my mother - though my mother cared much for me.


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## Ishna (May 24, 2012)

Thank you Tigerstylezji.

Baljinder, mothers and fathers should play an equal role in raising children.  Putting majority blame on the mother while the father beats the daughter is a symptom of a patriarcal, misogynistic cultural upbringing.  Chances are the assanine man beats the mother too and I'm sure some people would say a) it's the mothers fault if the father beats her because obviously she did something to deserve it and b) it was the father's mother's fault for not teaching him well enough in the first place.

*sigh*


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## Luckysingh (May 24, 2012)

I think we should just stop the judging and leave this thread.
I don't know the face, but I have heard of someone with a very similar story. That person I heard passed away from a nasty overdose. I'm not saying it is the charachter in the video, but if it was then we really shouldn't be discussing this at all.

So, lets just give this social and cultural issue a break as it is clearly not to do with general sikhism for the sake of the whole family and friends.


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## Ishna (May 24, 2012)

Good point Lucky ji.

My comments were more about the general ideas of 'mother should teach the children' rather than this specific family.

Apologies if I have caused any offence as my comments were based on the story around the family and not the family themselves.  If that makes sense.  I'm sure it's not the first family with a story like this and it probably won't be the last.


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## Parma (May 24, 2012)

I feel happy for her that she has found love, but the love she recieved has not helped her overcome the hate she still has inside her from her past. What does she wish to gain from showing her hurt so publically, I hope she is not trying to analyse sikhism to a form of repressive thought or a repressive religion, that is her families issues or cultural issues not a religious one. Throughout Sikh history, sikhs have helped communities overcome repression and I hope we will never parade that help given in good faith that way, that help does not look humble it makes a religion a faith look fanatical and shows a ego that I hope sikhism never gathers. If someone has family issues that have been helped with by God's grace It will take time but god will heal that hate hopefully with further love and maybe peace. God is the same to all in sikhism this is not a sikh issue it is a shame that she shows so much hate to a religion when, that new found faith or religion she has joined now should have taught her to show more love. If she still has anger it should be directed at her upbringing if anything like a jerry springer show. Not to a universal religion like sikhism that never did anything wrong to her! Shame her upbringing gave her limited knowledge on sikhism as in sikhism the path she has picked is ok aswell just she should not show hate for others really. It is a family crises!


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