# Considering Leaving Sikhism Due To Kirpan



## Kellysingh (Dec 3, 2011)

i believe in the gurus,Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,and 5k and try to live my life as peaceful as can be.  i rise in morn,shower, meditate ect...  but alas, where i live i get threatend or arrest for ccw because of our article of faith, the kirpan.  i ive in fear everyday of getting arrested over again and over.  should i just abandon the kirpan?  or just leave sikhism?  im considering both and really dont know what to do.


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## Taranjeet singh (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: considering leaving sikhism*

Please be guided by your conscience and Rest Leave to the Almighty..my first instinct response.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: considering leaving sikhism*

Kellyji, 

Only you know in your heart what to do, and only you know in your heart what aspects of Sikhism attract you. 

There are many sikhs that do not carry a Kirpan, in fact if you are not amritdhari, I do not think there is any specific need for you to carry one anyway. 

Whye exactly are you carrying a Kirpan anway if you have already been arrested once for ccw?

What is it about the Kirpan that seems to be the only link between you and Sikhi?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: considering leaving sikhism*



Kellysingh said:


> i believe in the gurus,Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,and 5k and try to live my life as peaceful as can be.  i rise in morn,shower, meditate ect...  but alas, where i live i get threatend or arrest for ccw because of our article of faith, the kirpan.  i ive in fear everyday of getting arrested over again and over.  should i just abandon the kirpan?  or just leave sikhism?  im considering both and really dont know what to do.



Harry ji is talking good sense.  Question #1:


Are you Amritdhari/Khalsa?  From what I know of you, I would say, probably not.  In that case you are not required to carry the kirpan and I would advise you to leave it at home.  If one day, you choose to accept the blessing of Amrit, you will have a choice to make:

Either stay where you are and fight the illegality of the kirpan
or
move.

If my assumption is wrong and you are now Amritdhari, let me know and I will send you a PM.


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## findingmyway (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you tried contacting SALDEF for help?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/saldef/33593-where-do-police-go-learn-about.html
http://www.saldef.org/program-areas/education/lepp/
Good luck!


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## Kellysingh (Dec 3, 2011)

i am not a iniated sikh, i am just a sikh.  but i hold myself to the 5k, rules of being khalsa, 5k to heart. i believe in the gurus,sggs ect.  i wasnt born sikh, but ive read and lived my life to rules of a khalsa member.  where i live, they dont do amrit because there are no the bowl thing (forgot it name sorry).  im not bound to having to wear any of 5k, but i choose to andconsider myself a khalsa member even tho i havent taken amrit .  i know some may argue im not a true member then, but iv pledged myself in my heart to rules,tenants and to the creator on my own.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 3, 2011)

Kellysingh ji I believe hpannu ji gave a very specific suggestion perhaps worth checking.  Namely I quote,



> I live here in US on the east coast in NJ and wear Kirpan all the time.  Big one over my clothes and small one underneath. I would suggest  contacting United Sikhs of America or Sikh Coalition in NYC. Don't know  your circumstances or where you are in USA ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## linzer (Dec 3, 2011)

Judge Painter in Ohio, concurring in a judicial opinion in 1996 wrote, "To be a Sikh is to wear a kirpan--it is that simple." (http://www.sikhcoalition.org/LegalUS6.asp)

We carry a kirpan as a reminder that we are obligated to defend those who can't defend themselves. If we can't defend our own right to religious freedom, how can we defend others. Sure, it's not easy to fight a legal battle. Who said it was easy to be a Sikh. Many Sikhs have died to protect  our way of life. Sometimes standing up for your rights is dangerous and life threatening. Your lucky that it's only an inconvenience. The are lots of 
organization out the that can help.
Gurfateh.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 3, 2011)

The very first and basic requirement of a SIKH is the GYAAN KHARAGH...SWORD of KNOWLEDGE, CONSCIENCE, Fairness, KIRPA, dya , symapthy, empathy, justice etc..DHARAMA. No body gets "arrested" for this weapon..BUT yet very very few SIKHS carry this.

2. The KHALSA is a Body which admits members via the Khandey dee Pahul ceremony also known as AMRIT SANSKAAR. No one can SELF ADMIT without the PANJ being present before the SGGS. Guru Gobind Singh ji established this rule in 1699 at VASAKHI when HE too bowed before the PANJ and REQUESTED ADMISSION. SO Even the "GURU" is NOT EXEMPT.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 3, 2011)

KellySingh ji,

Guru fateh.

Let's be frank and honest. The fact of the matter is that although your intentions were noble but deep down you never wanted to be a Sikh which means studying and understanding Sikhi's message. In fact you were after the Sikhi "Accessories" in this case that is what 5k's were for you and you were more interested in dressing up like a Sikh rather than becoming one through studies or taking courses via internet about it.

It is very easy to look like a Sikh. In fact during the 2 wars between India and Pakistan in 1965 and 1972 many Muslim spies were caught in Sikhi garb, the same you were looking for to look like one. Many Hindus dressed like Sikhs and infiltrated in the Sangat of Haramader Sahib before Indira Gandhi attacked the Sanctom Sanctorum of Sikhi. By this I do not mean you a Muslim or a Hindu spy but just you have never given yourself a  chance to think deeply about Sikhi's core values.

So, you never left Sikhi that you never embraced to begin with. Having Sikhi "paraphernalia" to show off does not make one a Sikh.

Having said all this, no harm, no foul. I hope one day, you open any Gurbani page at www.srigranth.org and begin reading it to grasp the message and then breed a quest within to know what Sikhi is all about.

If one does not finish a Marathon, one can not get a medal around one's neck. And 5k's were the medals  your were collecting for yourself without your running even the first few practice laps much less completing the Sikhi Marathon.

Good luck in your journey.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 3, 2011)

Kellysingh said:


> i am not a iniated sikh, i am just a sikh.  but i hold myself to the 5k, rules of being khalsa, 5k to heart. i believe in the gurus,Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ect.  i wasnt born sikh, but ive read and lived my life to rules of a khalsa member.  where i live, they dont do amrit because there are no the bowl thing (forgot it name sorry).  im not bound to having to wear any of 5k, but i choose to andconsider myself a khalsa member even tho i havent taken amrit .  i know some may argue im not a true member then, but iv pledged myself in my heart to rules,tenants and to the creator on my own.



I find one statement of yours in here very disturbing.  You say



> i choose to andconsider myself a khalsa member even tho i havent taken amrit .


First, you do not need to receive Amrit to be a Sikh.  Let me remind you from the Sikh Reht Maryada, our sort of rule book:



> [SIZE=-1]*The Definition of Sikh :*
> 
> _* Article I*_
> Any human being who faithfully believes in
> ...


It says only that a Sikh must faithfully believe in the Amrit, not that one must have already received it.  You possibly do, although it seems to me that you haven't studied Sikhi enough to know what we believe.  I admit, it is easy to fall in love with the Khalsa roop;  it is very attractive, but there is so much beyond that appearance.  You really like the 5Ks, but I wonder if you grasp their meaning.  Each has both a spiritual/piri and a temporal/miri meaning and use.  They are much more than just cool objects.  Many Sikhs have died for them, including my husband and son.

Second, you can consider yourself anything you like, but you are lying to yourself if you consider yourself a Khalsa.  Those of us who are Khalsa have made a very serious, formal commitment that is lifelong and even beyond.   Please do not hold yourself out as a Khalsa to other people.  Especially do not tell the police you are a Khalsa;  that could have bad repercussions on the real Khalsa.  You have been honest with us here about that and I'm sure all of us appreciate your honesty.  Please be as honest with others.  I am saying this very politely.  Others might not be so polite.

That said, I have often advised people to live according to the Khalsa way of life for a period of time before receiving Amrit.  This serves two purposes:



It makes certain that the person is capable of living as a Khalsa.
It gives the person a chance to make sure they are ready for this very great commitment.
If you are serious about being Sikh, I hope you are moving in the direction of someday receiving Amrit.  A Sikh is a learner.  Please learn, I'm sure any of us here would be happy to help you.    I am not meaning to discourage you in any way;  I am just trying to state the facts and my opinion clearly.  I am Amritdhari and have done what is necessary to call myself a Khalsa, although I have very long to go before I am truly khalsa (pure).


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 3, 2011)

Tejwant Ji..
Sometimes we have to be "brutal" in order to wake up to REALITY....you took the bull by the horns. Just too many "want" and "desire" the outer paraphrenilia of Sikhism/Khalsa WITHOUT having to do the hard work to acquire  its INTERIOR VALUES...and these were rightly described by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself as DONKEYS in LIONS CLOTHING ( and Guru ji demonstrated this practically by getting a Donkey to be sewn up in a LION SKIN....only to be exposed when the Donkey BRAYED ( I am scared of getting arrested for carrying a kirpan is one example of such behaviour). This shows that our wise Father Guru gobind Singh ji was very much aware of such sheep in wolfs clothing....
On the other hand we ahve so called "BORN SIKHS" who find kesh, kirpan etc a BURDEN too heavy to carry and thus declare.." we are SIKHS INSIDE"....whcih is essentially the SAME stuff the "donkey in lions SKIN" is made up of...
What we need to understand and grasp is that SIKHI is made up of 2 very ESSENTIAL aspects..OUTER and INSIDER facets....neither one ALONE makes for a COMPLETE SIKH no matter how much one wants or desires to believe its self deception. Just the SIMPLE HISTORICAL FACT of NINE GURUS over a period of 200 YEARS ....developing the INSIDER FACET of SIKHI is proof enough that Genuine SIKHI has to begin form the INSIDE FIRST bepore its beauty begins to shine through in the 5 Kakaars, Banna whcih the Last Guru Gobind Singh ji revealed. There is no shortcut..no INSTANT Khalsa...its a LONG ardous journey....a real life MARATHON as you so succintly put.
Thank you for setting the record straight.


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## Kellysingh (Dec 3, 2011)

first i appreciate the helpful comments on here, but to others who seem judgemental, dont judge me. only god can.  I do grasp what each mean of the 5k.  my favorite is kara.  it reminds me of my slave to god and to want to do his will.  ive been through alot as a sikh.  i have been to jail,strip searched, finger printed, charged with a crime i didnt do all because i chose to follow best i could to the letter. and while i did win, i went through all that for my faith.  so before you judge me, look at all i been through and then say something.  i dont like to be judged.  altho i am considering moving some where to hopefully avoid all this again.  where i live ppl are not very educated on religions out side of christianity or islam.  ive even tried to request items/brouchures ect to try and educate the police,courts ect..  let me tell you this, sit in a jail cell being charged with felony ccw facing up to 5 years in prison away from your family,kids ect and try not feel as i do.  i came out with my head up but yet still have that lingering fear...


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## Kellysingh (Dec 3, 2011)

also, my heart goes out to one who lost husband and son.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 4, 2011)

Kellysingh said:


> also, my heart goes out to one who lost husband and son.



Thank you very much.  It means a lot to me that you care.

However, they are only dead, not lost.  I know exactly where they are.


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## findingmyway (Dec 4, 2011)

All posts containing commercial links will be deleted without warning


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## Harry Haller (Dec 4, 2011)

Kellysingh said:


> i am not a iniated sikh, i am just a sikh.  but i hold myself to the 5k, rules of being khalsa, 5k to heart. i believe in the gurus,Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ect.  i wasnt born sikh, but ive read and lived my life to rules of a khalsa member.  where i live, they dont do amrit because there are no the bowl thing (forgot it name sorry).  im not bound to having to wear any of 5k, but i choose to andconsider myself a khalsa member even tho i havent taken amrit .  i know some may argue im not a true member then, but iv pledged myself in my heart to rules,tenants and to the creator on my own.




I am sorry my friend, but it is very difficult to take you seriously about your passion and love for Sikhism when you make statements like 

'_they dont do amrit because there are no the bowl thing (forgot it name sorry)'

_Again, apologies for being blunt, but no person who has lived their life to the rules of a Khalsa member would consider thinking this, never mind writing it on a Sikh forum, it would not have taken too long to google it, to educate yourself as to what the 'thing' is, it certainly would have presented your argument in a better light..

Instead of trying to educate all around you into Sikhi, maybe you should educate yourself, there is no valid reason why you whould be wearing a Kirpan, period. 

So everything you have been through has not been for Sikhism, it is down to your own actions, please do not blame Sikhi of being in a jail cell, I know of many Sikhs that have been in Jail cells in Punjab, and they were there for being Sikhs, this does not apply to you brother, you were caught with a bladed dagger that, in the absence of baptism, you need not have been wearing anyway, so, yes it is a crime, yes, you are guilty, no, you sitting in a cell had nothing to do with defending the rights of Sikhs to wear a Kirpan, which lets be frank, in the absence of baptism, was not even a Kirpan anway, it was what it was, a bladed dagger, nothing more, nothing less. 

I would ask of you to try and embrace Gurbani for the minute and see where that takes you, I hope you find the grace to see you have dug yourself a hole here, and you need to take a fresh look at our religion so that you may appreciate the finer aspects of it, good luck


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 4, 2011)

Brother Kelly Welcome , here is a nice link for you to help you practice being a Sikh, you seem already to be doing the physical part of practice and thats good ,don't feel obliged to wear a kirpan just yet, try to read as much as you can as it will help, we have to practice developing both a physical and mental strength through faith , you are blessed to have faith and that is what matters. 
May you stay in High Spirits and may God bless you.

*ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥*
*http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani*
*ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ नाराइण सभ माहि निवास ॥ Nārā▫iṇ sabẖ māhi nivās. The Lord abides in everyone.*


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## Kellysingh (Dec 4, 2011)

dont judge me. it was a kirpan. it was curved blade. with a sheath and look just like every other sikh kirpan. who are u to tell me if i can or cannot wear it????  if i wish to wear all 5k. i have every right to. i dont have to be a initiated sikh to.  i have nothing else to read or learn about the 5k. i know what they are all for, when they came into existance, which guru marytr ect.  to you people theyre just items/symbols. they are so much more then that. you have to look past the item, to see them for as they shhould be seen.  they should be taken to heart,soul, guarded with your life.  you sir shouldnt wear kirpan.


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## Kellysingh (Dec 4, 2011)

so you sir harry, are wrong, i did stand up for my faith.  it was not a dagger.  i did stand up for sikhs everywhere who have been through or gone through what i did.i know because i spoken to united sikh and sikh coalition.  let me tell YOU harry, YOU DO NOT have to be initiated sikh to wear all 5k.  any sikh can wear all 5k.  that is truth, try reading up on your faith brother before tellin me what i can and cannot wear or what my situation was.  you were not there.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 4, 2011)

Veera (means brother)
In the UK there is a provision in the law for baptised Sikhs only to wear a Kirpan, maybe that is why Sir Harry pointed it out. 
You don't need to worry about reading about the articles of faith yet ,just learn about the Sikh faith so that you may better represent the faith. Take care my dear Lion in the making. Our Guru taught us to be brave and to be bold ,but I don't think he wants us to be blunt.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 4, 2011)

Kelly Singh ji.

I have just read this entire thread and I have a few comments and ideas.

First, the only one who has the right to say you are or are not a Sikh is YOU.  (I am assuming that you are not practicing some other religion, as well.   That is the one outward objective sign that would disqualify anyone from being a Sikh.)

Second, you are not a Khalsa.  That title is reserved only for those who have received amrit through amrit sanchar and haven't broken any of the 4 taboos.  You are very likely to anger the real Khalsa if you hold yourself out as one of us.  Don't do that.  You can live according to the Khalsa lifestyle, if you wish.  It is a very good way of life for those who have chosen it.  You can carry the kirpan just as any Sikh can, subject to all the same hassles we all live with.

A kirpan is not a kirpan based on its construction or what it looks like.  It is a kirpan based on how it is regarded and how it is used.  I can have the most beautifully crafted orthodox-looking kirpan and it ceases to be a kirpan when I use it as a weapon for any purpose except defence, mine or another person's.  Conversely, an ordinary knife can become a kirpan if it is used in defence.  However, where the police are concerned, it is best to have a kirpan that looks like the usual kirpan.

Third, your statement  





> i have nothing else to read or learn about the 5k


 is grossly incorrect.  I have been a Sikh all my life, almost 60 years, and I still have much to learn about the 5Ks and their meanings.  There is a wealth of knowledge and insight there that cannot be exhausted.  

Fourth, may I talk to you personally, as an older sister?  No one here is trying to judge or condemn you.  We are all here to help.  We all have other things to do.  There are many things I could be doing on my Sunday afternoon other than writing to you.  Some of your ideas show either a lack of knowledge or a lack of understanding on your part.  These wrong ideas need to be corrected, for your sake and also for the sake of the sangat. No one likes being corrected, especially publicly, but you must expect it when you write in a forum like this.  Please try not to be defensive.  You are not under attack.

We Sikhs tend to be arguers and debaters.  That is just the way we are.  You cannot change it, nor should you.  This is one of our great strengths.  We are real people.  Very few of us are sants and even sants make mistakes.  Sometimes we get out of hand, which is one reason we have moderators.  I see nothing here that steps outside of the boundaries of common civility.  Obviously, neither do the moderators. 

Please consider everything I have written in a spirit of love and welcome to the real Sikh world.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera (means brother)
> In the UK there is a provision in the law for baptised Sikhs only to wear a Kirpan, maybe that is why Sir Harry pointed it out.
> You don't need to worry about reading about the articles of faith yet ,just learn about the Sikh faith so that you may better represent the faith. Take care my dear Lion in the making. Our Guru taught us to be brave and to be bold ,but I don't think he wants us to be blunt.



The GURU says..That one is a DONKEY..who is "proud" sans Gunns....sans MERIT.  That Nar (human) is a asal KHAR (Real "donkey") gunn bin garab karant....Note the word used is ASAL KHAR..( that means DONT Blame the real natural donkey becasue thats how nature made it to be)..the REAL "donkey" is a Human. Lots of times the Guru is BLUNT because thats real life.....not  make beleive do goody goody soft pedalling lollypop style ....the KHALSA is FORGED of STEEL..and steel is never made via mollycoddling/softpedalling....and a KHANDA thast needs sharpening has to be put to the GRIND STONE hwereby SPARKS FLY..Khalsa soee jo nit kareh JANG means fight the INTERNAL weaknesses..Jios..and only the strong can battle the IW.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

> Second, you are not a Khalsa. That title is reserved only for those who have received amrit



I have some doubts about that. Taking Amrit is more like the first step. Maybe like a resolve. Who is Khalsa? That is tough question to answer, probably as tough as describing Waheguru completely. Khalsa may be a reflection of purity and perfection in human form. When Guru Gobind Singh says Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas, it tells you of the unlimited greatness that Guru saw of Khalsa in His Eyes.



> You can carry the kirpan just as any Sikh can, subject to all the same hassles we all live with.



What hassles? I think within all governments and countries, there is a notion that no common man should be able to take the right to self-determination and self-defence. That is what Kirpan stands for. People will be unhappy with you.



> Third, your statement
> Quote:
> i have nothing else to read or learn about the 5k
> is grossly incorrect. I have been a Sikh all my life, almost 60 years, and I still have much to learn about the 5Ks and their meanings. There is a wealth of knowledge and insight there that cannot be exhausted.



Supporting this point, I would like to add that each part of Sikhi is an unlimited reserve of knowledge and learning, yes the learning never stops!


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 5, 2011)

Kellysingh said:


> first i appreciate the helpful comments on here, but to others who seem judgemental, dont judge me. only god can.  I do grasp what each mean of the 5k.  my favorite is kara.  it reminds me of my slave to god and to want to do his will.  ive been through alot as a sikh.  i have been to jail,strip searched, finger printed, charged with a crime i didnt do all because i chose to follow best i could to the letter. and while i did win, i went through all that for my faith.  so before you judge me, look at all i been through and then say something.  i dont like to be judged.  altho i am considering moving some where to hopefully avoid all this again.  where i live ppl are not very educated on religions out side of christianity or islam.  ive even tried to request items/brouchures ect to try and educate the police,courts ect..  let me tell you this, sit in a jail cell being charged with felony ccw facing up to 5 years in prison away from your family,kids ect and try not feel as i do.  i came out with my head up but yet still have that lingering fear...


Kellysingh veer thanks for your post.

I admire your perseverance through adversity.  If you had this persona and were with Mai Harinder Kaur jis family in 1984, you would have been attacked.  

It is a very bold step to start having the external persona of a Sikh Lion.  Lot of people feel threatened, some feel their edge is lost as someone stood up to them, and the list is very long.  There were many Sikhs who lost their lives before 1699, perhaps many looked like you before the Birth of the Khalsa that Guru Gobind Singh ji initiated.  Kirpan took official visualization within Sikhism before 1699 through Guru  Hargobind Sahib ji.  The seeds of a martial Sikhism were such sown.

You have taken a good step forward so continue the inner journey to same level of completion.  Then top all of it off with official union with rest of Singhs and Kaurs in a Baptization through Five Loved ones when you are ready.

One day many will be proud of you.  I already am.

All the best and take care.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 5, 2011)

Kanwaljit Singh ji,

First you quote me and respond:



> IK:Second, you are not a Khalsa. That title is reserved only for those who have received Amrit through amrit sanchar and haven't broken any of the 4 taboos.
> 
> KS:I have some doubts about that. Taking Amrit is more like the first step. Maybe like a resolve. Who is Khalsa? That is tough question to answer, probably as tough as describing Waheguru completely. Khalsa may be a reflection of purity and perfection in human form. When Guru Gobind Singh says Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas, it tells you of the unlimited greatness that Guru saw of Khalsa in His Eyes.


None of us is khalsa (pure).  Here I am explicitly speaking of Khalsa as a title that one receives upon taking Amrit.  Thgat is why I qualified it with the phrase "That title."  Whether the new Khalsa grows toward being khalsa is up to the individual and the grace of Guru ji.

Then we go on :  


> IK:  You can carry the kirpan just as any Sikh can, subject to all the same hassles we all live with.
> 
> KS:  What hassles? I think within all governments and countries, there is a notion that no common man should be able to take the right to self-determination and self-defence. That is what Kirpan stands for. People will be unhappy with you.


In Canada, have you already forgotten the Sikhs who were not allowed into the Quebec Parliament building with their kirpans;  followed by a push by some Parti Quebecois members to ban kirpans in the Federal Parliament?

In the USA where I live, especially since 911, we have been increasingly hassled and even murdered because, as visible Sikhs, to Americans, we look like Muslims.  For hassles specifically about the kirpan,  I urge you to visit the Sikh Coalition, SALDEF and United Sikhs websites and look for legal problems with kirpans people have had.  I mostly know North America.  I'm sure people from other countries could give more examples.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 5, 2011)

Kellysingh said:


> so you sir harry, are wrong, i did stand up for my faith.  it was not a dagger.  i did stand up for sikhs everywhere who have been through or gone through what i did.i know because i spoken to united sikh and sikh coalition.  let me tell YOU harry, YOU DO NOT have to be initiated sikh to wear all 5k.  any sikh can wear all 5k.  that is truth, try reading up on your faith brother before tellin me what i can and cannot wear or what my situation was.  you were not there.



Kellyji

No, you do not have to be initiated sikh to wear all 5k, however your limited knowledge on basic Sikhi means that firstly you will be passing yourself of as a Khalsa, when you are not, and secondly, as your mental grasp of Sikhi will not be in tandem with your physical show of Sikhi, lets just say you had to use that dagger, how would you use it? You would look like a Khalsa, but you cannot act like a Khalsa, in the same way that if I decide to wear a Karate Black Belt, it does not make me a Black Belt, at some point, looking like I do, with my big black belt, I am going to get mistaken for a real Black Belt, and what am I supposed to say? 'Oh Im just in training, I thought I would start with the belt..', 

Having said all that, if you wish to pursue your love for Sikhi in whatever way you wish to do so, then no one , including me, has the right to tell you what to do, and when to do it.

I do not keep my hair, I drink, my 'marriage' has not been blessed by Anand Karaj, so I am sure there are plenty of people that could take offence at my lifestyle, in the same way I have taken a slight offence at yours, but thats natural, none of us are the same,

You asked us for our thoughts, our thoughts are pointless if they are just paying lip service, I hope the broad line of opinions is enough to help you carry on your path, We all need and want something different from Creator, I hope you find what it is your looking for, 

Best Wishes


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## Searching (Dec 5, 2011)

kellysingh ji
I can understand that you are going through a very difficult time. Thought of leaving religion is an extreme one and i hope Almighty gives you strength to hold on.
Since you want to wear a kirpan and considering it is not to be used in any sort of a fight or battle I suggest you wear a small one, a few cms in size or even smaller as a locket around your neck.
By doing such a thing you will be wearing your article of faith and at the same time will not attract the ire of the police.

My grandmother came from a non Sikh family but spent major part of her life as an Amritdhari Sikh. She use to keep all the articles of faith but chose a small kirpan, hardly a cm in size and wore it around her neck as a locket.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 5, 2011)

> The GURU says..That one is a DONKEY..who is "proud" sans Gunns....sans MERIT. That Nar (human) is a asal KHAR (Real "donkey") gunn bin garab karant....Note the word used is ASAL KHAR..( that means DONT Blame the real natural donkey becasue thats how nature made it to be)..the REAL "donkey" is a Human. Lots of times the Guru is BLUNT because thats real life.....not make beleive do goody goody soft pedalling


 
Noble Gyani Ji would you agree that a new student should be encouraged first and that he can be reprimanded later if the need arises,perhaps only after he comes to learn exactly what he was supposed to do.As you know the one who is _anjaan _is not treated like the one who knows as per Gurbani.

I agree with you that the '_Khalsa is forged of metal'_ but I ask you who does that metal belong to in earnest?


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## Gogs Singh (Dec 5, 2011)

first of all take amrit properly and then worry about carring a sri sahib


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## hpannu (Dec 5, 2011)

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ 
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ॥

Dear All - there is no right or wrong answer or a quick fix. Nor should we judge others for their experiences with Sikhi - Sikhi Marg is a long road and one should consider himself lucky if one can see / reach the end of this road (I don't believe there is an end of Sikhi Marg experience, it's a lifetime experience) 

Having said that - consider this example of 5 Kakaars. Let's say someone new to Sikhi Marg starts wearing a Kara or Kachera to begin with before embracing Kesh, Kanga or Kirpan. Before going through Amrit Sanchar begining their Khalsa Way of life.

Now how many of us will jump the gun? to say a person should not wear a Kachera or Kara to begin this Sikhi lifestyle. Why do we raise flags when it comes to Kirpan ? perhaps too much prosection going on around the world. Depriving a person of basic human rights to arm himself / to defend himself or others. 

We as Sikhs are part to be blamed for our grievances - misuse of Kirpan , chori / thugi, loss of trust. On one hand we say Every person who is born in this world is a SIKH? On the other side we say VIRLA hi koi SIKH hai ( rare is the SIKH of GURU ).

To conclude this - Apne aaap nuuuu Sudharo before preaching to others ( General statement - don't take this in a wrong way )

Forgive me for my mistakes ( Bhulaan nuuu Bakhshan di kirpalta karni ji )

Vahiguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Vahiguru Ji Ki Fatih ॥


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 5, 2011)

SP ji..I am no more or less "noble" than you ji...we are all equals..learners.
Just calling a kindie student Daktaar sahib is not going to encourage him to stay the course until a PHD is earned...neither is calling him kindie student going to his ending up as a class one dropout...REALITY is always REALITY..the faster we get to know..the faster we get ON with it (our Journey I mean). By the way i distinctly remember my dad calling me nothing besides Arshi sahib..from the day i sat in his class at age 3 or so...and i did go on to earn the "Arshi sahib" from many others...but i dotn think THAT was the reason i have travelled as far as i have along the Gurmatt and worldy path..it happened due to HIS WILL. Mnay of my students have gone on to become real Doctors, surgeons, dentists, professors accountants..a pilot...etc...and i distinctly remember calling quite a few of them donkeys and gadhes when they messed up...
2. Nearly about everyone seems to think that KHALSA is "pure.." etc..and one becomes a Khalsa and hence 110% pure (whatever that means" five seconds after the Panj give the amrit.....as I said the PREPARATION took NINE GURUS almost 200 years...and after vasakhi 1699...HUGE SACRIFICES...much more out of proportion of sikh/khalsa population....so yes its a LONG journey..the preparation is ardous and difficult...and after the ENTRANCE ( SANSKAAR )..the REALITY hits home....purity is a long way away...and it needs blood sweat and tears...its NOT a walk in the Park.
The GURUS didnt teach us to..play the goody man...be POPULAR at all costs to WIN Maximum numbers...( thus Gurmatt promises no Beautiful damsles, rivers of wine and honey, young tender boys as man servants..(lol)..or mansions of gold and silver...Gurmatt means a LONG WALK on the sharp edge of the KHANDA...a SWIM in the deepest ocean...symbolised in the bata full of water and the Khanda in the Amrit ' SANSKAAR"...(ceremony only). People MISS the SANSKAAR part and misinterpret the ceremony as AMRIT which is in reality in the SGGS GURBANI...


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 5, 2011)

Gyani Ji only blunt words have to be justified later, it is not needed for kind ones,don't worry I'm not here to become popular, that would require me to agree with the establishment, I think you will find I do the exact opposite.Let us ponder who we are..

*ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਪੂਤਾ ॥੧॥*
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani
ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਪੂਤਾ ॥੧॥ ना इसु माइ न काहू पूता ॥१॥ Nā is mā▫e na kāhū pūṯā. ||1|| It is not a mother, or anyone's son. ||1||


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## Harry Haller (Dec 5, 2011)

I am not the majority, and you never agree with me....


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 5, 2011)

"*Any man more right than his neighbors constitutes a majority of one."  Henry David Thoreau

(This is also true for women on the left.) lol
*


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## lionsingh (Dec 6, 2011)

@Kellysingh

Just carrying the kirpan and equating that to all Sikhism is, is quite frankly silly. You mention that by carrying the Kirpan you feel oppressed and thus want to give up.??? You respect the Gurus you say and then say you wash and clean ??? As you mention "i am not a iniated sikh, i am just a sikh" ???

Why are you a Sikh...I dont have a turban nor kirpan but respect the teachings of the Gurus and moreover love our creator. I dont have to wear the 5Ks as you call them to know our Lord will judge us on our deeds. I question a lot. Its right you do...but to forsake the knowledge in the Granth because you believe that our religion is just based on carrying the Kirpan ? If that is all it means to you then best you leave to reflect. Many many Sikhs do not carry the Kirpan and are blessed and find salvation through the Gurus words. Perhaps you should read the Granth again so you may understand the true meaning of the Kirpan.

Moreover you say you believe in the Gurus..How ? What do you see ?... They were men like us who had wisdom and the love of God, our guides whom were spirituality allowed to see the oneness.

I would like to remind you of the words of Guru Gobind Ji himself

"Those who call me God, will fall into the deep pit of hell. Regard me as one of his slaves and have no doubt whatever about it. I am a servant of the Supreme Being; and have come to behold the wonderful drama of life."

"Shabad Guru” means Shabad is the Guru (Meaning SATNAAM is the GURU.  A Shabad refers to each Divine Word of God.  And the Source of all Divine Words, the very first Shabad was the Naam – SATNAAM.)  And Guru Gobind Singh ji says he is lower than God, (lower than SATNAAM)  “ma param purakh ka dasa'…I am a servant of God.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji delivered the scriptures and the Khalsa ..... He said “make no place for my memory, don’t pray to me, I am not God I am SAT RAM DAS (Servant of Eternal Truth : God), you can become like me.”

Sikhism is more than a Kirpan .... and yet you understand not that what was taught. My God guide you to a truth that will be clear.

animatedkhanda1

Understand what the above really means brother...I am still trying to.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 6, 2011)

Lionji

Very well said, I agree with your sentiments 100%

As for understanding Gurbani, Ambarsariaji is doing some most excellent interpretation of Gurbani, who don't you, and dear kellyji try your hand at some personal interpretation, I did this morning and found the whole experience quite uplifting


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## lionsingh (Dec 6, 2011)

Hey no one ever agrees with me...I get banned ;-)


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## lionsingh (Dec 6, 2011)

"thus Gurmatt promises no Beautiful damsles, rivers of wine and honey, young tender boys as man servants..()..or mansions of gold and silver."

whenever I mention that I get banned ;-(


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## Harry Haller (Dec 6, 2011)

Lionji

We all have to live in society, some aspects of society we may find repugnant, we may not disagree with, but we must always be noble, for it is in being noble we can understand and learn and educate. 

Once we cease being noble, we have joined those we find repugnant, and it is repugnance that we will drown in, 

People that care for you are saving you from drowning in the very repugnance you find offensive, and attempting to steer you on a path of nobility

your last post I found most noble..........


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