# Hypocrisy Of Karma



## Randip Singh (Jan 15, 2010)

Hi All sat behind my computer I was reading an article from another site (possibly AKJ or something similar), and they were talking about how Sikhs do not believe in the Caste, yet in the same breath they were saying that if you do bad things you will be born an ant or some other lesser life form.

Now from what I understand, is not someone born into a so called lower caste born into that caste because they did bad deeds in their Karma?

How can Sikhs believe that Karma applies to being born less than a human but not to the caste system?

Is that not hypocrisy? It's like saying, I believe in Karma in this instance but not in this instance?


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## spnadmin (Jan 15, 2010)

randip ji

Why do you think you are confused? I don't think you are confused. These conversations are the result of two things. (1) Ignorance. Ignorance of the subjects being discussed - in the case of discussions you are referring to,  ignorance about concepts of caste and karma. This is  ignorance bordering on a total lack of literacy. Ignorance which comes from repeating informal theories which are passed from one person to another on a thread. Ignorance which comes from being too lazy to read serious essays on subjects of caste and karma. Sometimes the posters even say they have chosen to read. (2) A herd mentality. Once a culture is set up on an Internet forum social norms for that forum are developed. Over time dissenters are either humiliated or banned. That makes it impossible for any kind of serious or critical discussion to take place. Ergo -- uninformed discussions take place. Or worse, disinformation is propagated endlessly in order to maintain the existing norms of thinking. 

On the topic at hand: Varna or caste evolved in the history of classical India over a period of time, and the idea was refined and established through the discourses of scholars. They interpreted the Vedas and in doing so reinforced a social system based on caste. The fundamental principle of caste in the ancient Vedas was to purify the karma of past deeds by continually reincarnating within a caste until one is pure enough to pass to the next level. Possibly with enough bad karma one theoretically regresses, even to a level lower than human. That is the basic notion. And that is how historically those of a higher caste were empowered *to keep those of a lower caste in their place. *Gandhi for example told the untouchables they were blessed to learn the karmic lesson of humility. The theory of caste and karma has justified all sorts of savagery for centuries. *Guru Nanak's message was to free us from this.* Of course to free the lowly would mean that those in high places would lose ground politically -- but *mostly in their own minds.*So caste continues, and all of the hurt and evil that goes along with it.

Let me end my diatribe with one thought. There is more than one theory of how karma works. The dharmic faiths do not have a blanket explanation about it. Views in Mahayana Buddhism, for example, are not exactly matched to those of Brahmanism, or even to the understanding of Theravedic Buddhism. So I do hope that at some point in the bright future these forums wake up. It might make the discussions less mind-numbing.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jan 15, 2010)

*KARMA**/**ਕਾਰਜ**<?"urn:fficeffice" />*​<o> </o>
*ABSTRACT*​<o> </o>
<o> </o>
Karma contains the beginning and the end of all philosophical speculation.  It demonstrates a casual relationship between the Infinite and the finite. Karma is that Infinite Power which adjusts each effect to its originating cause. The Infinite Absolute Principle’s law is blind but its justice is even-handed. No individual and no group are better than the rest of the humanity.
<o> </o>
ਕਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਸਚੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੈ ॥
_Karam Dharam Such Haath Tumaarai._
<o> </o>
You hold deed or action/destiny/Grace and righteousness in Your hands, O True Akal Purkh.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru Dakhani, AGGS, Page, 1034-5
<o> </o>
ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਸੀਓ ਤਬ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ 
_Jab kac__ẖẖ na sī&shy;o __ṯab ki&shy;ā kar__ṯā kavan karam kar ā&shy;i&shy;ā. Apnā k__ẖėl āp kar __ḏėk__ẖai __ṯẖākur rac__ẖan rac__ẖā&shy;i&shy;ā._
_<o> </o>_
When nothing existed, what deeds were being done? And what karma caused anyone to be born at all?  The Creator Itself set Its play in motion, and Itself beholds the created Creation.  -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 748-14

For full article; www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual.../24564-*karma*.html
Virinder


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 16, 2010)

Let us start from Japjisahib which states 'hukmi hovan aakar, hukam na kaiha jaey, hukami hovan jee hukam milai vadhaiee and what is this hukam cannot be elborated.But on fourth stanza Guru sahib slowly opens this puzzle and says, 'karmi aavai kapda nadri mokh duar'.Then we have kai kot baitath hi khaey kai kot ghalat ghal jaey.SGGS 276.5. Why Guru sahib tells us, gobind milan ki eh teri baria? In the end Guru sahib says, ' nanak saeyee ubharai jina bhag mathai SGGS 1425.15. Why people are born in slums and die in starvation which guru sahib says 'bhista ka keeda bheesta mai smai'? Why people are born in rich shiekhs family to enjoy all the comforts of life? Havethey done anything better? Why a girl is born to prostitiute? Why someone is born in a criminal family? Why people are born in Gursikh family. Why even after birth in sikh family, people get attached with different cults?
I invite all of you to come with your knowledge and experience to find the truth.
Best regards


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## spnadmin (Jan 16, 2010)

Mohinder ji

This is a fresh beginning


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jan 16, 2010)

God is compassionate, merciful, forgiving and hundreds (Uncountable) attributes. Then wehy It is not transparent about past and future?

ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਸੀਓ ਤਬ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ 
_Jab kac__ẖẖ na sī&shy;o __ṯab ki&shy;ā kar__ṯā kavan karam kar ā&shy;i&shy;ā. Apnā k__ẖėl āp kar __ḏėk__ẖai __ṯẖākur rac__ẖan rac__ẖā&shy;i&shy;ā.<?"urn:fficeffice" />_
_<o> </o>_
When nothing existed, what deeds were being done? And what karma caused anyone to be born at all?  The Creator Itself set Its play in motion, and Itself beholds the created Creation.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 748-14

ਮਾਇ ਨ ਹੋਤੀ ਬਾਪੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਤੀ ਕਾਇਆ ॥ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਤੇ ਤੁਮ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਤੇ ਕਵਨੁ ਕਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ  ॥ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ਬੇਦੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਕਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ ॥
_Maaey Na Hotee Baap Na Hota Karam Na Hotee Kaa-eaa, Ham Nahee Hotay Tum Nahee Hotay Kavan Kahaan Tay Aa-eaa, Saasat Na Hota Bayd Na Hota Karam Kahaan Tay Aa-eaa._
<o> </o>
When there was no mother, father, our actions or even the human body and no one existed then where was this human being?   How was he born? When there were neither Shaastras nor Vedas, where did destiny come from? -----Bhagat Namdev, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 973

IMHO it is the Karma of the present life resulting in its cause and effect in the present life. There is no Karma of the past or future as there is only this life as Guru Nanak in Raag Gauri And Guru Arjan in Raag Maru Dakhnay says;
ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੂਏ ਕਿਉ ਪੂਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
_Saba__ḏ__ marai fir mara__ṇ__ na ho&shy;ė. Bin mū&shy;ė ki&shy;o pūrā ho&shy;ė._

One, who dies in the Word of the Sabd, shall never again have to die. Without such a death, how can one attain perfection?  -----Guru Nanak Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 152 & 153
ਆਗਾਹਾ ਕੂ ਤ੍ਰਾਘਿ ਪਿਛਾ ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਮੁਹਡੜਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਝਿ ਇਵੇਹਾ ਵਾਰ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਜਨਮੜਾ ॥
_Āgāhā kū __ṯarāg__ẖ pic__ẖẖā fėr na muhad__ṛā. Nānak sij__ẖ ivėhā vār bahu__ṛ na hovī janam__ṛā._
<o> </o>
Look ahead; don't look back over your shoulders to the past. O Nanak, be successful this time, as there is no birth again. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Maru-Dakhnay, AGGS, Page, 1096-12

<o>Any how we always can agree to disagree and I have nothing further to add  on this subject.</o>

<o>Cordially,</o>

<o>Virinder</o>


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 16, 2010)

Crime and punishment  are the laws on which power is based from the time immemorial. Someone has the power to judge you, punish you for what they claim has been a          "crime" committed, albeit by a democratic, autocratic, dictatorship,reigns, etc. etc. or any other form of Govt.

People in power can control the powerless in many manners. People who claim to have the Spiritual  power unto others by claiming their direct line connection to "God" can be as dangerous as the other people of power if not more.

As they can project the future as good as Ms. Cleo, they become the perfect centers of attraction for the ignorant. This is the reason, we have so many Sants, Derawalas, cults like AKJ in Sikhi because the sheep followers; rather than empowering themselves with the help of SGGS, our only Guru, try to seek a short cut through the words of anti Gurmat charlatans.

Come to think of it, the ignorant looking for a quick fix deserve this kind of treatment where Karma is the major playing card in the deck these confidence tricksters hold.

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 16, 2010)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> IMHO it is the Karma of the present life resulting in its cause and effect in the present life. There is no Karma of the past or future as there is only this life as Guru Nanak in Raag Gauri And Guru Arjan in Raag Maru Dakhnay says;
> ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਫਿਰਿਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਮੂਏ ਕਿਉਪੂਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
> _Saba__ḏ__ marai fir mara__ṇ__ na ho&shy;ė. Bin mū&shy;ė ki&shy;o pūrā ho&shy;ė._
> <FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><?"urn:
> ...


 If there is only one life then why guru sahib is telling and advising us, 'eh tera avsar eh teri bar' and then gobind milan ki eh teri baria'. What is the meaning of gobind milan ki eh teri baria or 'suraj kiran milai jal ka jal hua ram SGGS 846 or safal safal bhai yatra. what is the meaning of yatra. I request our learned members to come and share.
Best regards


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jan 17, 2010)

IMHO Guru is telling to make use of this life for spiritual progress and enjoy the bliss rather than wasting it in sensory pleasures you Moorakh. You have a right to make your own conclusions/meanings what ever suits you.

Regards.
Virinder


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## Admin (Jan 17, 2010)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> IMHO Guru is telling to make use of this life for spiritual progress and enjoy the bliss rather than wasting it in sensory pleasures you Moorakh. You have a right to make your own conclusions/meanings what ever suits you.
> 
> Regards.
> Virinder


Virinder ji,

I may sound harsh but i am harsh!

Who gave us the right to draw our own conclusions/meanings to serve our own intentions? Do you think Gurbani is ambiguous and you have the right to interpolate the meanings to whatever meaning you want to extract from Gurbani to suit your own ego? You have based all you arguments and articles interpolating one liners from Gurbani and drawn some of the most outrageous conclusions and if somebody uses the same yardstick to counter your arguments then you come up same old statement like "we can always agree to disagree" or "You have a right to make your own conclusions/meanings what ever suits you." ...Logan Ram Khilona Janae... people have reduced the name of almighty to just a playing tool... I think we need to do some soul searching here... :advocate:

Gurfateh!


*Admin Note: We have had respectfully instructed you time and again to post all your articles and conclusion in a separate section called: "Spritiual Articles" but time and again you have violated this instruction and spam the various topics with same copy and paste of stuff of yours and actually killed many a discussions. Please consider this as our final warning.*


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 17, 2010)

If it is a matter of spiritual progress then how could millions of people who are cursed to live in slums or Africa, and who are starving to death could even think of it. But if it is a matter of enjoying the bliss then there are millions of people who are born with Golden spoon or silver spoon, then why do they need spiritual progress if it is just one life. Let us start serious discussion.


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## Taranjeet singh (Jan 17, 2010)

*S*ikhism believes in the theory of Karmas.In Jap ji sahib it self there is an indicative line ‘_aape beeje aape hi kha.’_ The theory has not been explained at one place in the Granth and one shall have to refer to inter- connected lines and bring out reconciliation. Nonetheless, there will always remain some questions un answered e.g. as to what would be the result of some present act in future. We cannot expect knitty gritty of the theory of Karma explained in the Granth. We have to derive the same and for this purpose we shall have to bring in reconciliation ourselves to our satisfaction only. I do not think that this is defined in any other faith as well as GOD cannot be presumed to weigh each action and indicate corresponding result of that action. Nor is it required to be done.
<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


</B>

*Karmas responsible for Human Birth*

1. _Karmi avay Kapra, Nadri Mokh dwar._ [Jap ji Sahib].It would imply that our Karmas are responsible for the Human birth. [that is so difficult to obtain as has been stated in bani at many places]


*Re-incarnations on account of Karmas*

2. We go through reincarnations according to our past actions or the actions committed in earlier lives. ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ *ਕਿਰਤ*ਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥[59-15]


*Karmas cannot be erased*

3. The past actions cannot be erased.. The type of the life we lead and the reason of birth in particular circumstances would be governed by the past actions. Howsoever, strongly we wish that the past actions be erased, it is not possible in normal circumstances. ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਚੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਲੋਚੀਐ *ਕਿਰਤ*ੁ ਨ ਮੇਟਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥[65-13] and *ਕਿਰਤ*ੁ ਪਇਆ ਅਧ ਊਰਧੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥[228-4]According to the karma of past actions, people descend to the depths or rise to the heights, unless they contemplate spiritual wisdom. 


*Perform Actions to determine future*

4. On account of the past actions we come here as human beings and perform our actions that shall determine the future as well. Here we can argue that if we have a preordained destiny; how we can think of doing things of our own. To a limited extent the answer is contained in the following Line of bani.ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਆਇਆ *ਕਿਰਤ*ੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਰਾਈ ॥ [75-13][By the good fortune of good deeds done in the past, you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future.]

*Purpose of Life*

5.The purpose of Life for Sikhs so far as spirituality is concerned is governed by the following sabad and is reproduced here .Human body is given for this purpose only.i.e Gobind Milan Ki eh teri baria...and every effort should be made to merge with Him.This is self explanatory.

Sabad-Ang-12​
<o><TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>


Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
This human body has been given to you.​


ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.​


ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥
Nothing else will work.​​


ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||​


ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥
Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.​



ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
You are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||​


ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living.​


ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King.​


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!​


ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੪॥
O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! ||2||4||​
​


​</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​Bhul chuk Mauf</o>


The doctrine of karma, according to Sikh belief, is a part of the Divine law (hukam).

"The whole universe," says Guru Arjan, Nanak V, "is bound by action, good or bad" (GG, 51). Guru Nanak declares in the Japu that "all forms, beings, greatness and lowliness, pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are subject to the indescribable hukamsind there is nothing outside the realm of hukam," (GG,l) and then adds that "karma determines the kaprd, i.e. body or birth we receive and that it is through nadar (God`s grace) that one secures the threshold of moksa" (GG.2). Sikhism, moreover, distinguishes between karma and kirat. The latter term applies to the cumulative effect of actions performed during successive births and is somewhat akin to sanchit karma and prdrabdh karma of Hindu the orcticians.

But the operation of karma in Sikhism is not irresistible; its adverse effects can be obliterated by a proper understanding of hukam and proper conduct in accordance with that understanding as well as by God`s grace. While the actions of other species are mostly regulated by instinctive response to environmental stimuli, man, endowed with a superior brain, is capable of having a proper understanding of hukam and choosing a course of actions (karma) favourable to progressive spiritual growth deserving His nadar. Human birth, therefore, is a precious gift and a rare chance for the individual soul (jivdtmd). Guru Nanak says: "Listen, listen to my advice, 0 my mind! Only good deeds shall endure, and there may not be a second chance." Certain points in the Sikh view of karma are noticeable.: Source: Sikh encyclopedia.

2.*The natural law of Karma *

The law of karma can be described simply as the belief that all actions have consequences for the person who acts. These consequences do not just involve the immediate physical results – for example, when someone uses violence against another person and he/she is injured as a result. There are also moral consequences which affect the soul on its journey towards reunion with God and determine the nature of further rebirths if reunion with God is not achieved. 

If a person returns to the cycle of life, death and rebirth, it is not because God actively punishes that person for doing wrong. The Sikh Gurus taught that a person moves closer to reunion with God or further away from reunion as a result of the natural law of karma. The law of karma is part of God’s created order, not a force or power independent of God. 

The Gurus taught that it is not necessary to die in order to be free from karma and reincarnation (rebirth). Anyone who chooses to live in complete harmony with God’s Will or Hukam, and keeps God in mind at all times, no longer creates either positive or negative karma. Although, the Sikhs will avoid negative karma and try to create positive karma, this is not the main focus. The main focus is in listening to, and obeying, God’s Will or Hukam and remaining open to God’s Grace at all times (Kudrat). A person who constantly keeps God in mind and lives in harmony with God’s Will or Hukam is known as gurmukh. [source:

http//www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikh_Beliefs


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## Randip Singh (Jan 18, 2010)

So how can we not beleive in the caste system yet beleive people will be born into a lower life form?


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 18, 2010)

Randip Ji

Division of mankind by caste, Division of God (as trinity), Division of water (holy Ganga and other rivers), Division of animals (holy cow and holy pigs) etcs are the creation of us human beings which is strongly condemend by the Gurbani. But previous life like,  mat pita binta sut bandap Eshat meet or bhai, purab janam kai milai sanjogi antai ko n sahai SGGS 700.3 have been quoted through out SGGS. Can you give me one pankti from SGGS which rejects concept of previous life and cycle of reincarnation.
Best regards


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## Randip Singh (Jan 18, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> Randip Ji
> 
> Division of mankind by caste, Division of God (as trinity), Division of water (holy Ganga and other rivers), Division of animals (holy cow and holy pigs) etcs are the creation of us human beings which is strongly condemend by the Gurbani. But previous life like, mat pita binta sut bandap Eshat meet or bhai, purab janam kai milai sanjogi antai ko n sahai SGGS 700.3 have been quoted through out SGGS. Can you give me one pankti from SGGS which rejects concept of previous life and cycle of reincarnation.
> Best regards


 

Do not misunderstand me, I am not dismissing Karma. It is the closest thing in religion to actual science eg for every action there is an equal and opposite reacrion and matter cannot be destroyed but merely changes form.

The question is how do we reconcile a humanbeing over a lower caste with with being born as a mineral, plant or animal.

We do not believe in caste hierarchy yet we believe in a hierarchy in terms of being born into non-human.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 19, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> If there is only one life then why guru sahib is telling and advising us, 'eh tera avsar eh teri bar' and then gobind milan ki eh teri baria'. What is the meaning of gobind milan ki eh teri baria or 'suraj kiran milai jal ka jal hua ram SGGS 846 or safal safal bhai yatra. what is the meaning of yatra. I request our learned members to come and share.
> Best regards




Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

This in my opinion will be a great interaction and a wonderful learning opportunity for all. I have noticed that you have quoted several lines from different Shabads  in several posts to express your viewpoint regarding Karma.

Can you please start with one Shabad at a time in full? Please give us your own understanding of the Shabad and also help us understand if it differs from the literal translations available.

I have the feeling that this would be just the perfect spring board for us to understand Gurbani in depth which is the main objective of all of us. Only by understanding Gurbani we can use the tools in the right manner.

Thanks and looking forward to it.


Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Taranjeet singh (Jan 19, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> We do not believe in caste hierarchy yet we believe in a hierarchy in terms of being born into non-human.



Dear Randip ji,

The theory of Karma or the doctrine of karma is a part of the Divine law (hukam). "The whole universe," says Guru Arjan, Nanak V, "is bound by action, good or bad" (GG, 51). Guru Nanak declares in the Japji that "all forms, beings, greatness and lowliness, pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are subject to the indescribable hukam and there is nothing outside the realm of hukam," (GG, 1) and then adds that "karma determines the kapra, i.e. body or birth we receive and that it is through nadar (God's grace) that one secures the threshold of moksa" (GG, 2). Sikhism, moreover, distinguishes between karma and kirat. The latter term applies to the cumulative effect of actions performed during successive births and is somewhat akin to '*sanchit karma'* and *'prarabdh karma*' of Hindu theoreticians. 

TRANSMIGRATION OF THE SOUL doctrine of rebirth based on the theory that an individual soul passes at death into a new body or new form of life. Central to the concept is the principle of universal causality; i.e. a person must receive reward or punishment if not here and now then in a subsequent birth, for his actions in the present one. The soul, it is held, does not cease with the physical body, but takes on a new birth in consequence of the person’s actions comprising thoughts, words and deeds. The cumulative effect of these determines his next existence. Attached to worldly objects, man will continue in the circuit of birth-death-rebirth until he attains spiritual liberation, annulling the effect of his past actions.

Belief in reincarnation is basic to the eschatology of all religions of Indian origin. Some Western philosophers of yore also believed in the transmigration of soul, but for them it was associated with the concept of the immortality of soul. In Indian tradition, on the other hand, transmigration is an essential concomitant of the doctrine of karma, according to which every action, physical or mental, has its own consequence which must be faced immediately or in future, either in this life or in the hereafter, good actions leading to a favourable reward and bad actions entailing punishment. The individual soul (jvatma), so it is believed, does not perish with the physical body but dons a new corporeal vesture in a new birth which is determined by its karma in the preceding births. Every new birth in its turn necessarily involves new karma or action leading to further consequences. Jivatma is thus tied to a karmik chakra or an endless cycle of birth-action-death-rebirth, until the chain is broken and karmik accumulation is dissipated and the jiva attains mukti or moksa, i.e. liberation or release from transmigration.

The origin of the idea of transmigration is traced back to the post-Vedic period. The early Aryans simply believed that good men ascended to heaven to join company with the gods while the souls of the wicked sank down into the abyss of hell. The postulate that there is no unmerited happiness and unmerited misery and that the individual soul takes after death a new existence during which it reaps what, good or bad, it had sown earlier was first propounded in the Satpatha Brahmana, one of the several commentaries that preceded the appearance of the Upanisads. Since then in India the highest spiritual goal has been the release of the jivatma from the cycle of birth and death or avagaman (lit. coming and going). Different traditions within the Indian religious systems offer different analyses and correspondingly different solutions. One view is that since transmigration is subject to karma or actions, the cycle can be broken only through the annihilation or karma. Various methods have been suggested to achieve this end such as renunciation, non-action, ritualism and gian (jnana) or philosophical and metaphysical knowledge.

Transmigration - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

Kindly read on from the link given above.
My opinion is as follows:

The point to stress upon is that sikhism does not believe in any hierarchy as pointed out by you above. There is nothing in Granth sahib that states so. It is only the Karmas that are talked about. At no place it is specified that if  the action is 'x' the reaction/reward would be' x1'. There cannot be any mathematical precision in the theory of Karma or transmigration. It is a concept to signify that there can be adverse reactions if one does not become virtuous or does not lead the life as is required and stated in Granth sahib. 

I shall be grateful if you could post the sabad or the line on the basis of which you have raised your doubt.May be I am missing something.


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Can you please start with one Shabad at a time in full? Please give us your own understanding of the Shabad and also help us understand if it differs from the literal translations available.


 
Tejwant Ji

I am nobody in front of a very wise and senior scholar of your talent. I am simply a trader who writes without any scholarly knowledge. I feel that Hukam is so immutable that no one can get away from it. There is no vakil, daleel or appeal against this Hukam except His grace which can tear out all your lekha. Coming back to start with one shabad in full. This is written by Guru Arjan and is very long
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o>*jo jo jUnI AwieE iqh iqh aurJwieE mwxs jnmu sMjoig pwieAw ] qwkI hY Et swD rwKhu dy kir hwQ kir ikrpw mylhu hir rwieAw ]1] Aink jnm BRim iQiq nhI pweI ] krau syvw gur lwgau crn goivMd jI kw mwrgu dyhu jI bqweI ]1] rhwau ] *SGGS 686.17
The last stanza of above sabd also ends with rahao pankti which is center
of each sabd. 

*sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ] Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw ]  687.12 SGGS 687.12 *

*As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.*
*Best regards *





</o>


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## Lee (Jan 20, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> So how can we not beleive in the caste system yet beleive people will be born into a lower life form?


 

Randip Ji,

This is a most easy thing to understand.

Guru ji tells us that only a human can become Gurmukh, only a human has the freewill to choose to reach for God or not.  This is amongst God's greatest gifts and is only avaliable to us humans.  An ant cannot strive for God, but any human can.

Therefore all humans are equal, any system that attempts to say that we are not is a false system.

Thus we certianly belive that the caste system is no good whilst beliveing in karmic retirbution and re-incarnation into lower life forms.  There is no contradiction here.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 20, 2010)

Lee said:


> Randip Ji,
> 
> This is a most easy thing to understand.
> 
> ...


 

Excellent response.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 20, 2010)

twinkle said:


> Dear Randip ji,
> 
> The theory of Karma or the doctrine of karma is a part of the Divine law (hukam). "The whole universe," says Guru Arjan, Nanak V, "is bound by action, good or bad" (GG, 51). Guru Nanak declares in the Japji that "all forms, beings, greatness and lowliness, pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are subject to the indescribable hukam and there is nothing outside the realm of hukam," (GG, 1) and then adds that "karma determines the kapra, i.e. body or birth we receive and that it is through nadar (God's grace) that one secures the threshold of moksa" (GG, 2). Sikhism, moreover, distinguishes between karma and kirat. The latter term applies to the cumulative effect of actions performed during successive births and is somewhat akin to '*sanchit karma'* and *'prarabdh karma*' of Hindu theoreticians.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your answer.

On Sikhiwiki, I tend to stay away from there as 99% of the articles there are heavily dogamised by the chief editor there Hari Singh and his Kenyan Sikh GNSSJ view of Sikhism. See here>> Revision history of "Transmigration" - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia. :tongue: As you can see this is HariSinghism not Sikhism.

But nevertheless thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 20, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> Tejwant Ji
> 
> I am nobody in front of a very wise and senior scholar of your talent. I am simply a trader who writes without any scholarly knowledge. I feel that Hukam is so immutable that no one can get away from it. There is no vakil, daleel or appeal against this Hukam except His grace which can tear out all your lekha. Coming back to start with one shabad in full. This is written by Guru Arjan and is very long
> fficeffice" /><o>*jo jo jUnI AwieE iqh iqh aurJwieE mwxs jnmu sMjoig pwieAw ] qwkI hY Et swD rwKhu dy kir hwQ kir ikrpw mylhu hir rwieAw ]1] Aink jnm BRim iQiq nhI pweI ] krau syvw gur lwgau crn goivMd jI kw mwrgu dyhu jI bqweI ]1] rhwau ] *SGGS 686.17
> ...



Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

First of all, let me clarify one thing. I am neither a Sikh scholar, historian, intellect, nor do I intend or pretend to be.

I am also a trader but in a minute nano form. However, one thing both of us have in common, that is,  that we are both Sikhs, seekers, learners, hence on the same playing field.

My question to you was regarding your quoting one liners of Shabads to prove your point about Karma  which is the starting thread, "Hypocrisy of Karma" not about Hukam.

In my opinion, Hukam means: what ought to happen in any form or shape is going to happen. Our limited, limited language and intellect cannot express it nor can they grasp this Wow! and Awe! factors of Hukam. 

We should not confuse human actions good or bad, in actions with the Hukam of The Source which in itself is unfathomable and indescribable. Hukam teaches us acceptance which is umpteen steps ahead of tolerance that other dogmatic religions teach. 

Hukam is a vast tent under which all humanity has the capability of living in harmony. 

Mool Mantar is the blue print of Truthful living, Jap is its foundation and the rest of the Guru Granth teaches us that if we abide by the Hukam, then we can all lead a truthful life, irrespective of our hue, creed or faith.

But that is not the point of my initial post. As Sikhs, students, learners and seekers- NOT as scholars, it is our duty to express what we understand by the Shabads posted by us as all messages  of Gurbani are personal depending on which milestone one is at and only Ik Ong Kaar is the one who knows the spiritual mark of the milestone.

So, I will again request you to express yourself about what message the shabads you have quoted give you and please share it with us so that we can all learn as Sikhs from each other. This is the true essence of," Mil Sadh Sangat, Bhaj Keval Naam.

Regarding your post above, allow me to point one thing out.

You write:




> *sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ] Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw ]  687.12 SGGS 687.12 *
> 
> *As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.*



I will copy & paste  two literal translations of the Rahao dooja.

Literal Translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji

ਆਵਣ  ਜਾਣ  ਰਹੇ  ਮਿਲੇ  ਸਾਧਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ਦੂਜਾ  ॥੧॥੩॥ 
आवण जाण रहे मिले साधा ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥१॥३॥ 
Āvaṇ jāṇ rahe mile sāḏẖā. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||1||3||. 
Meeting with the Saint-Guru, my comings and goings have ended. Pause 2nd. 

Literal translation by Dr. Sant Singh khalsa

ਆਵਣ  ਜਾਣ  ਰਹੇ  ਮਿਲੇ  ਸਾਧਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ਦੂਜਾ  ॥੧॥੩॥ 
आवण जाण रहे मिले साधा ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥१॥३॥ 
Āvaṇ jāṇ rahe mile sāḏẖā. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||1||3||. 
My comings and goings have ended, since I met the Holy Saint. ||1||Second. Pause||1||3|| 

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib


Neither  of the translators  above state, show or explain what you have concluded which is:



> *As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.*



There is no round trip  journey here.

Am I missing something?

And one more request, please read the Shabads that precede and follow this on  pages 686 and 687 to have the better understanding of the concept mentioned in the Shabads.

I am waiting for  your own explanation of each Shabad that you have quoted in your posts to express your point of Karma so we can all learn from each other.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 21, 2010)

<FONT face="Arial Narrow"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Jaswant Ji<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




You may deny being a scholar but your writing clearly reveals that you are not less than that. It is your humility. When one is enlightened and revelation is dawn upon, “guJVw lDmu lwlu mQY hI prgtu iQAw ] - the hidden jewel lwlu becomes known which does not require any university degree. It appears by the way of expression and writing of the author..” - Guru Granth ang.1096.14. I am only a learner and could be wrong in my interpretation or understanding. Your comments compelled me to revisit the sabd and go through the preceding lines.

Perhaps you will agree that Rahao line of a Shabad is the essence or meaning of the Shabad. It is like the nectar of a flower and the rest of the verses are like petals protecting/complimenting the nectar, making the whole Shabad a flower that emits its scent in all directions sans bias. The interpretation of first rahao in this shabad as per my understanding is that Guru Sahib who have recognized their self is requesting to guide him how to pay back the favors of granting him human jama(prani tu aaya laha lain) and ultimately unite with Him as through several incarnations (in different philosophies) I was not able to blend myself to unite with you.

Through the second rahao of this sabd,Guru sahib confirms that the purpose of his life is served and his mind is ultimately imbued with the ecstasy of Guru sabd and mission of his journey is successfully accomplished and as such his coming and going (wandering)is over. The message is clear unless you pay back his favors you will keep on wandering through many incarnation depending upon your karma and subsequent grace.
Best regards 
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 21, 2010)

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

But let me re- emphasize  what I said earlier that I am neither a Sikh scholar, historian, intellect, nor do I intend or pretend to be. The reason of my this repetition  may sound redundant to some but for me it creates the equal playing fields for all of us who call ourselves Sikhs so that we become open minded to learn from each other.

You write:




> *Perhaps you will agree that Rahao line of a Shabad is the essence or meaning of the Shabad.** It is like the nectar of a flower and the rest of the verses are like petals protecting/complimenting the nectar, making the whole Shabad a flower that emits its scent in all directions sans bias. *




 I like the way you put the meaning of Rahao above. I hope you will allow me to use the same one day.




> The interpretation of first rahao in this shabad as per my understanding is that Guru Sahib who have recognized their self is requesting to guide him how to pay back the favors of granting him human jama(prani tu aaya laha lain) and ultimately unite with Him as through several incarnations (in different philosophies) I was not able to blend myself to unite with you.
> 
> Through the second rahao of this sabd,Guru sahib confirms that the purpose of his life is served and his mind is ultimately imbued with the ecstasy of Guru sabd and mission of his journey is successfully accomplished and as such his coming and going (wandering)is over. The message is clear unless you pay back his favors you will keep on wandering through many incarnation depending upon your karma and subsequent grace.



Mohinder Singh ji,

As requested by me several times in my other posts, please be kind enough and give us the whole Shabad with your own understanding so that many of the members of this wonderful forum, including myself can learn and then be able to interact. This will help all of us to enhance our Gurmat knowledge.

After you have done the above mentioned Shabad then we can start talking about other Shabads that you have mentioned in your posts.


Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 22, 2010)

Tejwant Ji

<?"urn:<img src=" />
Since this shabd is in ashtpadhi, I will try to take one stanza at a time. To be very frank with you I am not blessed with good command over English like you. 

The first pankti states, ‘jo jo jUnI AwieE iqh iqh aurJwieE mwxs jnmu sMjoig pwieAw ]qwkI hY Et swD rwKhu dy kir hwQ kir ikrpw mylhu hir rwieAw ] whosoever is born in whichever juene ( philosophy) he got attached with Maya and remain attached throughout his life as they think this their mission to amass wealth, the birth through the womb of spiritually elevated pious mother is only through the good destiny. Since I was blessed to be born through the womb of such pious mother, kindly keep your support, and bless me so that I come upto the expectation and with your Grace I may merge with my beloved. 

The second stanza is rahao. The interpretation of first rahao in this shabad as per my understanding is that Guru Sahib who have recognized their self is requesting to guide him how to pay back the favors of granting him human jama(prani tu aaya laha lain) and ultimately unite with Him as through several incarnations (in different philosophies) I was not able to blend myself to unite with you.

Unlike Guru Amardas Ji who was idol worshipper, so different philosopies concept does not apply to Guru Arjan Dev Ji who was born into Guru ghar. Therefore this pankti writtrn by Guru Arjan Dev Ji directly tells us that Guru sahib is talking of different incarnation.
Best regards


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 22, 2010)

Mohinder Singh ji

Guru fateh.

I hope your two posts are directed to me. The reason I ask this is because both of them are addressed to Jaswant Singh rather than Tejwant Singh. I am sure it is an oversight.

Thanks for going stanza by stanza on this Shabad. But I do not know why the pankti written in Roman is not legible. Please use the following site next time which will help us see the Shabad in Gurmukhi and also in Roman.

http://www.srigranth.org

You can use the literal translation either by Sant Singh or by Manmohan Singh but also share the message you receive from the Shabad in a personal manner.

One more request. Before you go further into this Asthpadhi, please read the preceding Shabad by Guru Nanak in Dhansari which lays the foundation for the next Dhansari by our 5th Guru. 

One more interesting thing to notice is that the Dhansari Asthpadi starts with:

ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=686&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=1

 This must be some reminder to us that we should not look over before trying to understand the Shabad.

Lastly, as you explained the meaning of Rahao in such a nice manner. Just out of curiosity, I would like to know how did you come to think of this in such a manner? And would it be OK with you if Iused it?



> *Perhaps you will agree that Rahao line of a Shabad is the essence or meaning of the Shabad.** It is like the nectar of a flower and the rest of the verses are like petals protecting/complimenting the nectar, making the whole Shabad a flower that emits its scent in all directions sans bias. *


Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 22, 2010)

S.Tejwant Ji

Yes Tejwant Ji, it is through an oversight. I apologize. I am getting the right font, if you download the gurbaniakharislim it should work. I will try to see the preceding ashtapadi too. With regard to use of rahao meaning to tell you the truth, I read it somewhere and found appropriate.
Thanks
Best regards


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## japjisahib04 (Jan 23, 2010)

Tejwant Ji,

<?"urn:<img src=" />
Thanks for referring me to srigranth.org site. Though the translation is literal but it is quite helpful. I was wondering if I could download the entire Guru Granth sahib from this site on hard disc, but was not successful. I have gone through the preceding ashtpadi. In this pankti Guru sahib is emphassing on sehaj. Word Sehj or Sehj Marg is the process commended by Guru Nanak in contradiction to difficult postures prevalent during his time, which is with intuitive ease - <TT>spontaneous harmony - is the natural state of contemplation has to happen 24/7. It is</TT> a departure from the rigid rituals, which tortures the body.

In first pankti he says, ‘*shij imlY imilAw prvwxu ] nw iqsu mrxu n Awvxu jwxu ] Twkur mih dwsu dws mih soie jh dyKw qh Avru n koie ]1**]* ‘ those who seek through spontaneous harmony find union with Him and their union is approved as branded without any investigation. Such devotee becomes immortal (jiwanmukt) thus is saved from the cycle of reincarnation and then there is no difference between God and him. As a result wherever and in each of His creation He sees God.

And then in rahao pankti which is essence of this sabd, Guru sahib tells that through the ecstasy of Gur sabd one is able to please his beloved and merge. How to do that? <TT>Gurbani has given very simple answer – “</TT>hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ] is to chant the Name of God from the core of your heart and maintain pure conduct.” – Guru Granth ang.266.13. Then Guru sahib says to live according to Niyam is Hukam and without surrendering to His hukam, one stays away from and as such goes through the cycle of reincarnation. 

It confirms that the interpretation I have done earlier was based on preceding sabd. And since the translation of all other pankti is with you, I don't think you need further explanation.
Best regards


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## Randip Singh (Jan 23, 2010)

*Comment Fof JapjiSahib and Tejwant Singh*

We seem to have digressed, but the bottom line is when we use one or two lines of Bani and not put it into context, i.e. the Shabad, we distort the entire meaning . Whether this is deliberate or not is debatable.

The prime example of where distortion can take place is in emotive subjects such as caste, homosexuality, vegetarianism etc.

For example of how wholesale distortion can take place I suggest you read the essay Fools Wrangle Over Flesh. The first section shows how Bani can be manipulated for a particular agenda, in this case in favour of Vaishnavites.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 23, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> *Comment Fof JapjiSahib and Tejwant Singh*
> 
> We seem to have digressed, but the bottom line is when we use one or two lines of Bani and not put it into context, i.e. the Shabad, we distort the entire meaning . Whether this is deliberate or not is debatable.
> 
> ...



Randip Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Good point and I agree with you. I thought Mohinder Singh ji would express the message he gets from the Shabads and that can only be done if one does the whole Shabad, one by one, not some lines at a time. But as he found it cumbersome because of the length of the Shabad, I agreed with him to do it line by line but from the result, one can notice that it distorts the message or we see in it what we want to. Poetry can not be dissected into prose like that.

So, my request to Mohinder Singh ji. Please give your own expression about the whole Shabad so all of us are able to understand your viewpoint which is based on Gurbani.

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Feb 4, 2010)

Randip Singh Ji

I don't think so we have digressed from the subject. I am just interpretating the gurabni at the request of S.Tejwant Singh Ji so that we at the end we come back to the original issue. After few lines, I was expecting his response but it seems the thread has come to standstill. I request Tejwant Singh Ji to give his view and tell me where there is contradiction so that our efforts come to some conclusion.
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## Randip Singh (Feb 4, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> Randip Singh Ji
> 
> I don't think so we have digressed from the subject. I am just interpretating the gurabni at the request of S.Tejwant Singh Ji so that we at the end we come back to the original issue. After few lines, I was expecting his response but it seems the thread has come to standstill. I request Tejwant Singh Ji to give his view and tell me where there is contradiction so that our efforts come to some conclusion.
> Mohinder Singh Sahni




Ok, we may not have digressed but the point is, if we take one or two lines out of a shabad does not the shabad get distorted? 

A chap called HariSingh editor on Sikhiwiki has done this and he did it at wikipedia too, however on Wikipedia many learned Sikhs were able to edit it, but he blocked people on Sikhiwiki. That suggests to me that some people (I am not suggesting you), can misuse Bani if it is used in this way.

Please see Fools Wrangle over flesh

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html


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