# Rai Sikhs In Ferozepur Rely On Dera, Not Sikhism



## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

Rai Sikhs in Ferozepur rely on Dera, not Sikhism

Tagged with: dera sacha sauda Ferozepur Ghubaiya Radha Soami SAD





Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) candidate Sher Singh Ghubaiya from this constituency is a baptised Sikh, but his two lakh Rai Sikh brethren rely on the deras and not Sikhism for uplift in the area known to be one of the most backward in Punjab. 
In fact, deras, particularly the Beas-based Radha Soami, is behind the gradual
transformation of the Rai Sikhs, described as “those belonging to the lowest
castes” and “vagrants” by H Rose in his glossary “Tribes and Castes of Punjab
and North-West Frontier”. 
The Rai Sikhs, settled mainly along the riverine tract, have transformed into a political force and are increasingly being known as hardy farmers and workers who will become more socially relevant after grant of Scheduled Caste status to one and a half years back.
The Radha Soami dera has brought about this change. A large section of the community, known for bootlegging, besides other social ills, has given up liquor and non-vegetarian food.
At least half of the Rai Sikh community is said to be Radha Soami followers. There are a few followers of Dera Sacha Sauda also.
Kashmir Singh of Lakha Singhwala Hittar village near Mamdot says while the Radha Soami sect has given them an identity, it is also of practical help.
“Liquor and meat are responsible for excess expenditure in the countryside, and if you remove these, almost anybody can live within ones means”. He says with liquor out, women are also happy and have become ardent dera followers.
“All my four sons and their families have taken ‘naam’ (religious initiation),” says
Lahora Singh of Mamdot Hittar village, showing proudly photos of the dera head
which adorn his house as well as others of the community like Puran Singh of the
same village. 
For whom will the Rai Sikhs vote and will the dera have any role in this? Nambardar Ujjagar Singh says sect guru Gurinder Singh has clearly stated in latest ‘bhandara’ that the vote is ours and we have cast it we so wish. 
He admits that the community has been voting for the Congress, mainly because it is against Jat Sikhs who control gurdwaras which primarily led them to the dera fold.
The community is also known to vote on caste lines and had voted for caste man Mohan Singh Phallianwala twice (1992 and 1996). In 1996 Phallianwala won as BSP candidate supported by the SAD.

The SAD is trying the same caste formula by giving Sher Singh party ticket hoping he will in supported by his community as well as by Akali Jat Sikhs. However, times are changing and such calculations may not work.

“A large chunk might still vote on caste lines, but social transformation has taught Rai Sikhs to rise above caste lines also,” says community elder Ujjaggar Singh.


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## dalsingh (Apr 24, 2009)

> “Liquor and meat are responsible for excess expenditure in the countryside, and if you remove these, almost anybody can live within ones means”. He says with liquor out, women are also happy and have become ardent dera followers.
> “All my four sons and their families have taken ‘naam’ (religious initiation),” says


 
There is a strong tradition of "khaan bukray, peen sharabaan, puth Jattan de". (Trans: Eating goats, drinking alcohol are the activites of farmers sons).


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 24, 2009)

Whats new here. All Alcohol and DRUGS are banned by Sikh Rehat Maryada and prohibited as undesirable "food" for the Body by Gurbani written 500 years ago in the SGGS.

BUT then WHO talks about SGGS, SRM...??? NOBODY. Not even the SGPC..not the Takhats..Not the Jathedars...Not the Granthis..not the Gyanis..not the Ragis..Not the Sants..and certainly Not the Brahmgyanis...ALL of them have BETRAYED the TRUST....

The SIKHS having been left "rudderless" in the open sea..then turn to these sacha saudas, radha soamis beas...and etc etc who plagirise Gurbani and offer it to their followers as OUR Brahmgyaan..OUR Naam..etc. The DERAS proliferate..Mainstream SIKHI loses members...
turns out that was the plan all along by the SGPC..takhats...etc etc..DRIVE AWAY SIKHS..ad if anyone is STUBBORN..then EXCOMMUNICATE HIM. That will surely drive him away for good...and they can then go on with their GO-LUCK looting ways...This is the THIRD time the MAHANTS have taken over...First round Guru Gobind Singh ji drove them out....Second Round the Singh Sabha Lehr and Akali Movement drove them OUT in the early 1920's...NOW a THIRD ROUND "DRIVE OUT" is sorely needed..then only can the SIKH RELIGION return to its  well deserved....GLORY:happy::happy:


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## spnadmin (Apr 24, 2009)

Gyani ji

Do you think in some indirect way that changes have already taken place in the diaspora, and the values of Sikhs overseas will make their way back to India? The world is no longer a collection of isolated cultures and experiences. Long distance travel, technology, better communication may cause a shift in perspectives. I will say this. That a number of videos I watched of the Nirankari Mat -- Nirankari revised -- was kind of a weird experience. This movement also supports schools, clinics, safety nets, and a form of worship that is ambiguous enough to smooth over any obvious differences. But there are many shades of mind-control IMHO.


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## Harpreet_Singh_ (Apr 24, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Gyani Ji
> 
> Do you think in some indirect way that changes have already taken place in the diaspora, and the values of Sikhs overseas will make their way back to India?


 I think it will. Sikhs overseas, myself included, have had 1 great benefit in living overseas. No deras, and Sant mats. Not to say we don't have their proponents here, but he don't have their direct influence. Hopefully, we get a strong movement of true Sikhism overseas and actually influence Indian Sikhs. Thats sounds very odd. But it could very well come true.


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## spnadmin (Apr 25, 2009)

Harpreet Singhji

The thought just hit me when I was reading through the thread... that it might happen. First India sows seeds of Sikhism throughout the world, and then the flowers bloom and make more seeds. The wind blows the new seeds back to the motherland, and things are refreshed. And it could be that the years of separation meant a greater need to focus more on the ShabadGuru. I am just guessing.. I really don't know. But I have many Internet friends in Canada, California, England, Australia -- places like that -- who are very serious about the ShabadGuru and have no desire to connect with deras, mats.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 25, 2009)

DEFINITELY and SURELY WILL.
Changes taking place in the Diaspora...will go back to the Motherland..slowly but surely...as the Economic situation improves..better education...and better opportunities..less avenue for deras and their superstitions, and mind control.
Beware that the Deras are also not sitting on their laurels... they too are into big time "cornering" the education segment..more and more Academies, schools, colleges..owned and operated by the DERAS..actively propagating their own MIND CONTROL on children...while the Common public education system si systemically destroyed by the power greedy self serving politicians who supprt the deras.
But alls not lost..TRUTH is the biggest asset we Have...SGGS..the TRUTH..is what all these deras DONT HAVE !! Falsehood may win a day..a battle..BUT we can win the YEAR..the WAR.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 25, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> The Radha Soami dera has brought about this change. A large section of the community, known for bootlegging, besides other social ills, has given up liquor and non-vegetarian food.




Yes what they have missed out, is that they are allowed to smoke according to Radha Soami philosophy.

Entirely the fault of the SGPC, which does nothing for the common man.

These cults like Radhaoswami are more dangerous than the most addictive of drugs.


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## dalsingh (Apr 25, 2009)

I'm going to be controversial here and say, from what I've seen these deras give the people something they don't get with mainstream Sikhi. I've seen people visit the sants for the "dhan" of a son. They arrange marriages. They get employment for people. Orgs like Radha Soamis also avoid any conflict and after all the events of 1984 and after, many Panjabi parents actively pushed their children into this more pacifist way. 

It is an immediate fix. The dera sant answers all questions and people throw all things on his shoulder and think if I do what he says, all will be well. 

Strange thing is I've seen weddings that were "blessed" turn horrifically sour. Parents having daughters after being made to give up meat and alcohol, for a son.  

This mentality that leans on mystical, magic men is pervasive in the subcontinent. I think it will be a long time before it goes, if it ever does.

That being said deras often give followers a feeling of comraderie and they do actually support each other. The SGPC could learn a lot from this but never will, because they are in teh business of making money above all else. 

Am I whining now?


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 25, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> I'm going to be controversial here and say, from what I've seen these deras give the people something they don't get with mainstream Sikhi. I've seen people visit the sants for the "dhan" of a son. They arrange marriages. They get employment for people. Orgs like Radha Soamis also avoid any conflict and after all the events of 1984 and after, many Panjabi parents actively pushed their children into this more pacifist way.
> 
> It is an immediate fix. The dera sant answers all questions and people throw all things on his shoulder and think if I do what he says, all will be well.
> 
> ...


 

Dal Singh,

Guru Fateh.

Well said.

All human beings want the sense of belongingness, especially in their spiritual realm of lives, an invisible shoulder to lean on. A place to go and talk and get consoled. Someone to wipe their tears. 

Our Gurus did that, that is why people flocked towards them and found true solace which strenghtened them from the inside.

The idea of establishing Takhats was also this to show the right directions to the lost ones. Unfortunately it has been abused as an elitist power. Rather than creating the foundations where people can be educated and trained to help the needy, it has become a walk to the gallows for punishment only.

When someone needs help they are told to do more Japjis or go on Chelia- a 40 day ritualistic nonsense. We need to seriously think how we can take our Sikhi back and weld the broken links that our Gurus had established. Otherwise, these Deras will keep on flourshing and they will keep on exploiting the ignorant and the innocent rather than showing them the tools to explore within.

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 26, 2009)

Dal Singh Jia nd Tejwant Singh Ji,

You are both absolutely right. Gurdwaras do not provide "personal touch".
Deras DO.
On the other hand..the Dera Sant can "afford" to lie..promise the moon...and when it doesnt work out..he has enough "goons" or others to "settle matters"
While I..as the SGGS ONLY ANSWER....can only tell the person what the SGGS says. IF a woman wnats a son...I can only tell what the GURBANI says... that its all in His HUKM..and Hands...BUT "THAT ANSWER" is NOT ENOUGH.....they ALL wnat something more....some assurance..some drink..some magic amulet..soemthing "tangible..physical....mantra..number of paaths done a certian way..etc.."..and MY beleifs in GURBANI/SGGS prevent me from giving in to those...so they GO TO A SANT/BRAHMGYIANI/DERA who cna PROVIDE them with those. Never midn that a daughter is born when the sant promised an iron clad guarantee about a sure SON.....he has his answers ready..Beeba jee tuseen sfaii nahin keetee honnee...maybe you didnt purify the room..didnt light a candle made of pure wax..shudh ghee wasnt so shudh..when one wants OUT..the excuses can be manufactured !!

A personal note" ...A long time ago a SGGS/SRM strict Granthi cmae from Punjab to work in malasyia. For the First seven years he STUCK to his guns..only said what SGGS/SRM allows....BUT then he realised that...the SGGS/SRM way wasnt going to make him rich...On a sudden "urge" he told a sangat member that >>"I will do a certian paath..and you will get a SON'. It so happend thta he did...and he was rich..so he BUILT a Personal Gurdawra for this Granthi..took him away, sponsored him a long term Visa.....one day i went to visit him ( he is very close to me)..and he confided..what else to do Gyani ji...7 years of SGGS/SRM earned me nothing...now see...EXACT same person..but many many times richer....ALL the probablties that coem TRUE..I advertise heavily through chelas ( 50-50 chance for girl/boy are natural selection)..thsoe that FAIL..i find an excuse !! For the first few he actually did it this way. He would take out hsi DIARY..and tell the woman..SON...but would write down Daughter..so when the person came and said Hanji Gyani Ji munda hai..he would say han ji honna hee se...BUT if it happend to be a Girl...he woudl open his Diary and say...i had a suspicion that it would be very very difficult balh bah see i wrote girl...

SO YES..people want Instant cures..hope..and Sants can actually make cancer patients refuse treatment...and when they do DIE..eventually....its all excused away...


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## dalbirk (Apr 27, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Yes what they have missed out, is that they are allowed to smoke according to Radha Soami philosophy.
> 
> Entirely the fault of the SGPC, which does nothing for the common man.
> 
> These cults like Radhaoswami are more dangerous than the most addictive of drugs.


 
I quite agree with u . The staunch pro-Congress Radha Soami Dera is the most dangerous of them all , maybe more dangerous than all the other pro-Congress deras put together .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 27, 2009)

dalbirk said:


> I quite agree with u . The staunch pro-Congress Radha Soami Dera is the most dangerous of them all , maybe more dangerous than all the other pro-Congress deras put together .



BUT its BADAL GOVT that gave them over 300 acres of consolidated land for Dera.in CHANDIGARH AREA of Mohali .while GURDWARAS beg and beg for small plots...NO NO NO for 25 years !!  SO these DERAS..are really into BIG TIME politcs...they play BOTH SIDES.
They are NOT staunch anyone..ONLY THEIR OWN INTERESTS...whoever rules in Punjab..THEY WIN.

2. YES I agree that the RSD Beas is the BIGGEST and MOST Dangerous...all others are OFF-SHOOTS...ram rahim is from beas..as well and he is creating big fuss...while the real culprit sits in beas and plots underground/background..


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 27, 2009)

Guys instead of blaming Radhasoami or even the Dera lets look into ourselves ...there r 2 perspectives ...1) Inspite of all odds why have we stuck to the faith, what is in us which makes us go against the tide 2) what was it that they did not see in the Panth and started seeking refuge in other beliefs.

We have all the power and money in fact we can stand stronger than the Deras ...we have seen it during the militancy period ...we have seen it during protests and we have seen during the assasination of the nirankari sant....we have seen it recently agaisnt the ram rahim singh case ...

the thing is we use our power doing more destructive and negative things than doing some good work.


caste discrimination is a taboo in our Dharam ..how strongly do we condemn those acts??? ..can we compare it to these protests against ram rahim singh ?

when mazhabi sikhs sought to build their own Gurudwaras in Punjab ..what were we doing ??? why did we not fill the streets against those Jat Sikhs who had beaten them ..killed them at the smallest pretext ....???

We are acting like those self styled gyanis and sants ..calling others evil and even claiming drug abuse ...whether they condemn tobbaco or not ...i have not seen a single radhasoami disciple doing it ...i have seen them much organised and disciplined ...just laying allegations is all what we do...

i dont care if they smoke or drink..the fact is they are better off than those akali factions and SGPC ...smoking may cause cancer to the person consuming ..but the way our guys behave will harm all around us ....they help their brethren ...respect each other...

the fact is ..all that venom against them is a result of jelousy growing in our minds against their ways ....they are attracting our people because they offer a better life which those people r seeking ...

we had all the money sent from Canada and USA and Germany to sponsor terrorist activites ..we even went ahead to hide them there ...BUT we dont have a heart to think for our own downtrodden masses...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 27, 2009)

Rajkahlsa ji,
you are absolutely correct...*except in one statement.*( .i have not seen a single radhasoami disciple doing it)  ..to see just how many "radhasoami disciples  THRASH the malpractises of their former Living Gurus..literaly hundreds of sites on web..Rickross.com is the best and largest resource of anti- such thagg gursu and deras - all compiled by EX-Derawadees/exradha soamis et. A LOT of people do FIND OUT what {censored} they are..and are brave enough to tell the world about it.
and yes the money from Canada is also a source for these Deras and it does come form Sikhs themsleves..thats why they do so many "parchaar tours" of the west...
2. The Militancy..the Street Protests about dera ram rajm..were all a sham. The whipping up Drama was all politically motivated...and some innocent ones got killed...because the moment Badal decided STOP IT..the "ptotests" died down immediately.

3. You are correct that we SIKHS should sweep under our bed....the solution is in our hands...we must fight the RSS, Deras, and self styled gyanis and sants who mislead us..by first being GOOD SIKHS TRUE to Gurbani.


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 28, 2009)

rickross has also taken yogi bhajan in his stride Gyani ji...you can find it there on his website ..a non indian source cannot be trusted much...atleast i dont ...and i have interacted with many families and individuals of the radhasoami panth...i will not agree to your allegations ..

sweeping under our bed does not mean 'fighting' with those organisations u mentioned ...the way it is being presented here ...any ordinary person will ridicule...

punjabi vaad, khalistanism, jatt vaad, false superiority has to be replaced with Sikhi...then only will you move ...your way of fighting might be that similiar to bhindranwala style ...gunning down people .....not letting them have their gatherings ...terrorising them...

Gyani ji come to India ..and see what christian missionaries are doing ...see the way they have amritdhari sikhs in their fold ....do you think your 'fighting' will have any solution ?

you are bound to create more enemies ..remember one thing that Dera leader has a higher score than us ...the masses will slowly move towards them with your way of 'fighting'


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 28, 2009)

how many websites of the radhasoami panth ever lay allegations on any Sikh organisation ??? they too ..i m sure have enough to project ..atleast learn from them...


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 28, 2009)

Inder Mohan SinghÂ was born into a Sikh family of very devout and religious people, made up mostly of physicians and Army officers. He use to have a foot-and-a-half long beard, had long hair and tied a turban till about 1996. Inder M. SinghÂ holds aÂ Bachelorâ€™s, a Masterâ€™s andÂ Law Degrees and other professional qualifications. He isÂ currently a Realtor/Associate Broker withÂ Just One Realty inÂ Marlborough, MA. USA.Â Fluent in English, Hindi and Punjabi andÂ with a working knowledge of Urdu andÂ familiarity with a few other languages, Inder M Singh enjoysÂ reading, writing, and calligraphy. In India, his resonant voice was used for voice-overs.

View all articles by Inder M. Singh 

*Jesus - The Champion of Champions* 
Testimonies are usually short and sweet, but mine might be as ‘big’ as I am…it’ll go on perhaps for two hours! Don’t worry; I am just kidding: I’ll finish it in 10-15 minutes!
My name is Inder Mohan Singh. I had a foot-and-a-half long beard, had long hair and tied a turban till about 1996. I was born into a Sikh family of very devout and religious people, made up mostly of physicians and Army officers.
I was the youngest, fattest and most spoiled of four children, three male and a female! My two older brothers and eldest sister had not studied in private schools (called public schools in India!) but my father, a retired Army officer who had spent 42 months in Italy and Egypt during the Second World War, was determined that I be educated in an English-medium school. St. Xavier’s School, a Roman Catholic Jesuit institution in Delhi, had just opened and was accepting students. I was one of those admitted there the very first month, in January 1960, more than 48 years ago!
We used to be taken to the Sikh temple regularly and we read the Sikh scriptures off and on (a copy of which was kept ritualistically ‘adorned’ at our home)! However, in that Roman Catholic School run by the formidable Jesuits, I was introduced to the Person of JESUS CHRIST in the fourth grade, and I still recollect a black-and-white picture of OUR LORD and Savior, a crown of thorns pierced into His head, and congealed droplets of blood ALL over HIS FACE!!
In the eighth grade, Gideon’s pocket-sized Bibles were distributed to all of us after morning assembly in school. I read a few chapters, but that was not a big deal for me….seemed to be just a story, a fairy tale! We continued to learn in more depth about JESUS from a book titled ‘The Savior’ during our Moral Science class periods in the ninth and tenth grades in School.
In 1968, when I was in the tenth grade, my father fell very ill and was hospitalized. He had 16 units of blood transfusion. I was desperate, so I read the Gideon’s Bible. (Strangely, but providentially, I used to keep it always in my pocket!!) I ‘prayed’ to JESUS to save my father. JESUS HEARD MY PRAYER, saved my father and we brought him home healed. However, like most tenth graders would react, I think, I forgot the Savior after that!! There was no long-term gratitude in my heart for JESUS! I went the wayward ways of adolescence, teenage and youth, though that Gideon’s Bible still remained in my pocket at all times.
I joined College, earned my Bachelor’s, Master’s and Law Degrees, experimented with liquor and similar intoxicants. I did everything that was considered ‘WRONG’, and what many people during that phase of life usually do; but I did go regularly to the Sikh temple, and even completed certain 40-day prayers, visits and rituals. However, there was no peace in the heart as it was just mechanical, without any personal relationship with any deity, any ‘god’!
Many years later, while traveling by train en route to Bangalore (many here might be familiar with G. T. Express), and with the Gideon’s Bible still habitually in my pocket, my life was literally ‘jolted’ because my compartment, and a few others, derailed near Nagpur. I was unhurt, without even a scratch!! Suddenly, I heard a voice that said ‘Be a man’ (that, by the way, was the motto of St. Xavier’s School at that time…esto vir). This was not an audible voice, but one that emanated from my heart and soul! We carried on to Bangalore where, at the train station, I met somebody who turned out to be my sixth grade class teacher’s youngest brother from Agra. I did not mend my ways in Bangalore, either, and continued to be my usual self for the week that I was there. This man from Agra was a Roman Catholic; he got a job in Delhi and we kept in touch, and talked about Jesus off and on!
My heart was still unreformed. I had not ‘become a man’ even though the ‘voice’ after that derailment had asked me to do so!! I was still very lukewarm in my search, in my behavior and in my attitude toward God and man! But Yeshua had by then decided that He had had enough patience with me! He persisted, pursued….and chased me in many ways, but I did not respond; on March 17, 1978 (just a few days more than 30 years ago), there was the first, and only, tornado in Delhi. There was quite a bit of devastation just about half-a-mile from where I lived in North Delhi.
That was the day of reckoning for me: that was the day I believe that the GOOD LORD JESUS CHRIST stamped me with his ‘seal’! I told my Catholic friend Ivan Smith that I wanted to go to Church with him; in April 1978, I began going with him to the Sacred Heart Cathedral in Connaught Place, New Delhi. That tornado had scared the living daylights out of me!! I had begun ‘becoming a man’, albeit out of a sense of terror!! I began going to Church not only for the Sunday Mass, but EVERY DAY!!
However, that Cathedral is smack (no pun intended!!) opposite one of the Sikhs’ most important shrines in Delhi (Bangla Sahib Gurdwara). My parents got wind of my going to church. My father was a prominent doctor at that time in North Delhi, and his patients reported on me entering the church when they visited that Sikh temple. My whole family took up arms against me!! How could a devout Sikh’s son ‘go to church’? My brothers were hastily summoned from their jobs. They tried to dissuade me from going to church. I refused, and did not relent….in the end, I was willing to give them only the ‘concession’ that I would go to church after sunset, when it would be dark, so that my relatives, friends and father’s patients would have minimal chances of seeing me ‘go to church’!!
The Church Assistant Parish Priest used to guide me, and I participated in the weekly Charismatic Prayer Meetings. However, the Parish Priest declined to baptize me for 13 years; I had to make do with the ‘baptism of desire’. This Parish Priest was of the old school, so to speak, and wanted to be completely, rather overly, convinced that I really wanted to be baptized into the Catholic Church. I was in virtual limbo, but the GOOD LORD heard my prayers and, after thirteen years without holy communion, that parish priest was transferred by the new Archbishop. The new Parish Priest, who is now the Archbishop of the Delhi Catholic Archdiocese, called us for instructions only a very few times. He was convinced about our sincerity because we successfully answered his queries about the Bible and the basic tenets of the Roman Catholic Church.

Long story short, we were baptized 17 years ago, on Easter Sunday in 1991. We began going to Church even more regularly, took Holy Communion and followed all the traditions of the Catholic Church very ‘religiously’ (no pun intended!!) in India till 1999 when we moved to the U. S. A. Here, too, we carried on attending Mass weekly and, sometimes, daily. But that unnamed and indescribable thirst and hunger in our hearts remained unsatisfied…because all that we were following and doing were mostly traditional rituals, attending ‘obligatory’ Sunday Mass, praying the rosary, chaplets and doing ‘novenas’ and so on.
There was apparently not much of a fellowship, Bible study or any personal relationship with Yeshua!! We hungered for fellowship that is regular and anointed. During Christmas 2006, we attended a dinner on Christmas night at a friend’s place. Her uncle, Mr. David Raj (www.jaimasihki.com, www.masihtube.com ) had come from Baltimore that morning. We were with him and his family that night for 3-4 hours, and shared a meal with them. He and his family came over a couple of days later to our home:  said a few prayers, and sang a few hymns together. He returned to Baltimore, and from there in Feb. 2007, he introduced us by phone to a lady who too had given up Sikhism, and had accepted the LORD JESUS about 5 years ago. Our contact with them was ONLY telephonic.

However, the GOOD LORD YESHUA planned it in such a way that this former Sikh lady and her husband came to visit us, without ever having even seen our faces, in Aug. 2007. The Lord JESUS CHRIST sent  ‘physical’ strangers, who stayed with us for about just two nights, but sowed the seed of moving from tradition to a real relationship with our Heavenly Father!! We decided that after their departure, we would go to different churches on Sundays to see which one we liked the most! In the meantime, my better half called up Pastor Philip Pala whom we had met twice or thrice before.
He and his wife Susie had spoken to us about Jesus, but we had stubbornly refused to budge from the Catholic tradition. Pastor Pala had met our son 5-6 years before at the K & G Men’s store in Natick (now in Westwood). Pastor Pala had tried to convince our son to join him in his Church, and move towards a personal relationship with Jesus. Our son, on the other hand, had tried to bring Pastor Pala into the Insurance and Financial Services business….but each failed in his attempt at that time!!
As many of us realize, sooner or later, that the Lord has His ‘plans’; and as the hymn goes, everything happens ‘IN HIS TIME!! It was meant to be that unknown, unseen, ‘unmet’ people were to come from Baltimore, pray with us and lead and guide us gently and lovingly out of the grip of tradition and habit into the liberating personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the CHAMPION OF CHAMPIONS!!! It was meant to be that instead of going from one church to another every Sunday to ‘choose’ the one that ‘appealed’ the most to us, my wife was ‘led’ to call up Pastor Pala who helped steer us towards the proper path! Our Heavenly Father works ‘behind the scenes’ and, as Paul Harvey would say, this is the rest of the story!
We are now doing our best to get past the baby steps of learning to walk with Jesus. The Holy Bible is our source of strength and faith. We are becoming very regular in attending Bible Study sessions, prayer meetings and services. There is an inexplicable yearning in our hearts to meet with fellow believers for prayers, praise and worship!! The routine of attending Sunday Mass has been broken by the dynamic ministries that have taken us under their wings, and that are teaching us to fly high “on eagle’s wings” in our flight towards the one true LORD and Savior JESUS CHRIST Who, by HIS obedient Sacrifice on the cross, opened the PORTALS OF HEAVEN for ALL of us on earth. He died for the redemption of the whole world, not just for a select few!!
The ‘flight’ to true contentment, patience, faith and fellowship is long and turbulent; and we, too, ‘have miles to go before we sleep, and have many promises to keep’!! It is not that problems, suffering and irritations disappear the moment you become a Christian; however, the indwelling and in-filling of the Holy Spirit helps us to tackle these head-on, with confidence and fortitude. When even the Son of God, the spotless Lamb of God, had to carry the load and suffer (and all because of our past, present and future sins), who are we mere mortals to complain of this problem, or that pain in the neck (or elsewhere!!)? Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, ready to mediate for us if we ask, seek or knock in His Name; but it is WE who have to do the asking, seeking and knocking…..with the utmost confidence that whatever is good for us will be done.
When we think, speak and act at the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our path will NOT be hindered by insurmountable obstacles: instead, it WILL be strewn with all that the Heavenly Father decides is good for us. We must learn to abandon ourselves to His guidance for He ALWAYS knows better than we do what is good for us now, and in the days and years to come!! His plans are far-sighted while ours demand instant gratification, and this is why we must be aware, and BEWARE, of the wicked wiles and wayward ways of the ‘creature that is always prowling around, like a lion, trying to devour us’. I think I am becoming poetic, but the bitter truth is that satan never sleeps, and spiritual warfare is perpetual as long as we are here on this earth!!
If we are steadfast in our FAITH, the ULTIMATE VICTORY will DEFINITELY be ours because the Holy Bible says, “If GOD be for us, who can be against us?” and also that “NO weapon formed against us can prosper!”
Amen! And PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!! Please pray that we can be a blessing for all whom we meet and that we become instruments in bringing all the lost sheep to the GOOD SHEPHERD LORD JESUS CHRIST’S flock!


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## spnadmin (Apr 28, 2009)

rajkhalsa ji

I need to note that these are the experiences of Dr. Inder Singh and not your opinions. It is not altogether clear unless a person reads the article more than one time. 

Why not react to what he has written instead of just posting up there. Relate it to the thread topic and its issues. Right now it looks like a bid to convert. I know what you are getting at. So why not put your interpretation out there.

Thanks.


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 28, 2009)

i m sorry Aad ji if that wasnt clear ...i had posted my opinion before that post  ...what i want to show here is ..now this man...he is a doc ...he is learned ..he is well off financially...inspite of being a stuanch sikh with unshorn hair ..turned to Christianity ...well what i want to try to explain to Gyani ji and others attacking deras and Radhasoami panths is ...how can we blame them...its our fault ..we have not done enough ...

Aad ji i do not object to christianity or any panths because that also is someone's opinion about a spiritual realm...now it might be suitable for me or not ..but if someone thinks otherwise ..are we having that right to stop the person...

I had no issues with islam till it turned into a menace to the world ...if we r united we shall be an example to the world ...we shall perhaps lead...there shall certainly be KHALSA RAAJ...however if we engage in jelousy against those dont even take our notice then the whole world will take us as a off shoot of islam


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 28, 2009)

i have a question

Can someone be Khalsa even if they have never heard of Sikh Gurus?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 28, 2009)

YES....*after  .....*they hear about them !! OR they will hear about them...any time soon they reveal their intention to be Khalsa...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 28, 2009)

Rajkhalsa Ji...

I do not "fight"......have never have and never will. I hope this is the last time i hear such a baseless accusation . we attempt to discuss POSTS..not the poster. The reason why i posted the rickroos site is becasue you said not  a single radhasoami has anythign "bad" to say about his Guru...EVERYBODY has plenty to say..its the Age of the Internet..IT Explosion..Information OVERLOAD....my saying..sweep UNDER our BED means we INTROSPECT...look WITHIN...i never said this means we attack others. BTW i dotn beleive Rickroos aor anyone else has the mOINOPOLY on TRUTH...that woudl eb too NAIVE...hence i take it ALL with a pinch of salt...whetehr its RSS propoganda on Sikh sites or other stuff.

People coming over..to join..or leave..has absolutly NOTHING to do with education. wealth..whatever.
Mnay westerners born and bred in Christianity/Jewish thought/traditions etc and having the best education/wealth etc LEFT and joined Sikhism.. I never even bother  to reserach why ?? Because its a personal search. Did the Christians ill treat them..fought with them..why they left..End result is they LEFT. Period.
Similarly Sikhs..also LEAVE. Its their PERSONAL CHOICE. Nobody can do anything. many COME..amny LEAVE..its Natural LAW.
Just as a Christian who becoemsa an Amrtidharee is no longer a Christian..how could a AMRITDHAREE be in a Christian "fold" ?? doesnt make sense...unless he is BHEKHEE >>

Cheers


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## Randip Singh (Apr 29, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> Guys instead of blaming Radhasoami or even the Dera lets look into ourselves ...there r 2 perspectives ...1) Inspite of all odds why have we stuck to the faith, what is in us which makes us go against the tide 2) what was it that they did not see in the Panth and started seeking refuge in other beliefs.
> 
> We have all the power and money in fact we can stand stronger than the Deras ...we have seen it during the militancy period ...we have seen it during protests and we have seen during the assasination of the nirankari sant....we have seen it recently agaisnt the ram rahim singh case ...
> 
> ...



We do need to reform Sikhi. We have groups within Sikhi such as Namdhari, AKJ etc that are right up there with Radhaoswami. We have problems with those taht have the appearance of Sikhs.

We have problems with caste, racism, sexism, meat/vege issue, illiteracy isuues etc, but I would say these factions/cults/deras add to these problems.

My question is why pretend to be Sikhs when they are not? What they really wish to project is not the Paanths will (consensus) but rather their own will.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2009)

YES..everyone wants to be a "SIKH"..the Soamis..the rahims..the namdharees, the nirankarees, the RSS Bhagwa Brigade..the..the...the.. and even the "Amritdharee CHRISTIANS" ( whatever that is..).
SIKHS have no problem if these people stopped calling themsleves SIKHS and saying what they really ARE.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2009)

THEN we can get down to business cleaning up our backyard...:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 29, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> YES..everyone wants to be a "SIKH"..the Soamis..the rahims..the namdharees, the nirankarees, the RSS Bhagwa Brigade..the..the...the.. and even the "Amritdharee CHRISTIANS" ( whatever that is..).
> SIKHS have no problem if these people stopped calling themsleves SIKHS and saying what they really ARE.


 

The Soamis, the nirankaris, the rss ...I havent heard anyone calling themselves Sikhs..the Namdharis are a different case ..

This guy who's story i quoted here ..is an actual person and so are many on that website..you can contact them if you want and get answers perhaps as to why they moved on to a different religion...

This is root prob ...you see Aad ji ...our guys are all ready to disown...now rather than thinking on why this happened ..how a man with a financially sound background, with unshorn kesh and amritdhari ..converted to christianity..our guys just push them out ...its like ....GET LOST ....No Business with US....

I was thinking and expecting that our Gyani ji would have some solution....but anyways ...its for all others to judge what actually goes wrong and how ...we see it live here ...


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## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2009)

rajkhalsa ji

Are you saying that India owns Sikhi? Pray that you are not. Also that new generation Nirankari movement is doing a lot of "good" things. But is there a story behind the scenes about the leadership? Take a look at a few YouTube videos  -- it is all about leader worship. Isn't it all about votes? And a jet-set lifestyle?


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 29, 2009)

The fact is you will find such 'Gyanis' 'Sants' everywhere ..specially in India...they are at a loss to resolve the issue ..and to overcome their short comings they just give statements which further alienate that person...

To give an example ..some years back there was an incident in Jhajjar, Haryana.. where a group of allegedly low caste men were transporting a dead cow...they passed through a colony of Jats who claim themselves superior...these Jats got angry and killed and mutilated some men. There was high tention and situation was out of control all over.

The family and locality to which those victims belonged decided to convert to show a strong reaction. This was done in public with media watching them. There were reactions from various Sants. 

The Shankaracharya of the Kamakoti Peeth His Holiness Sri Jayendra Saraswati was interviewed and asked a question as to what would happen if such conversions happened en masse. His reaction was 'Let them Go' !!!!

I was shocked !! there was just bubbling anger in me ...Who the hell in this world has given the right to a person to decide this ??? we need to understand that a religious head is a 'servant' of the society and in no way should he/she try to be the master. was the rest of the hindu community even asked what did they want ???

The fact is such religious posts like 'Gyani' 'Sant' ..has never benifitted us ....in fact they were somewhere the reason for further alienation of the people from the society.


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 29, 2009)

well i am loss to understand how did u come to conclusion that i was saying India own Sikhi...Aad ji ..i seek further clarification


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 29, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> i have a question
> 
> Can someone be Khalsa even if they have never heard of Sikh Gurus?


 

Amar ji,

Guru Fateh.

For me KHALSA is pure hearted person. Nothing more. It is also important to come to the realisation that KHALSA is not a title nor a destination. So yes, there are many,many Khalsas in the world who carry on breeding goodness within and sharing with others without even having the knowledge of how we as Sikhs name them.

We should question ourselves as often as possible and should be in AWE while realisiing the answer of the following:

What doThe FOUR DOORS of Harmandir Sahib mean?

All those who want to  have the journey of how to become Khalsa ( Pure hearted) are welcome, irrespective of their hue,creed or faith.

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 30, 2009)

Tejwant ji

thanks, 

i got the answer i was wanting to hear.

there is still hope in the World.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 30, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> thanks,
> 
> ...




Amar ji,

There will always be HOPE...and Good people..and Honest God fearing humans...
in all the regions of this world. Those that "hope" to Colonize/convert/every single one to their own religion/way of life/etc are living in a fools paradise..Diversity is Natures law...Guru teg bahadur Ji told Aurengzeb the same thing..and he beheaded the Guru rather than accept the TRUTH. No one holds a monopoly on "truth", "honesty", God, piety, good deeds, etc etc...its everywhere and in all places.:happy::happy:


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## kiram (May 1, 2009)

Gyani ji, thank you !! There must be a saakhi about Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji speaking to Aurangzeb Ji... Could you share that as well ji..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 1, 2009)

When Aurengzeb began his active campaign to convert ALL india to Islam, he vowed to weigh a Mann of Janeaus daily before he would eat his breakfast. This Mann of janeaus represented the number of Hindus converted daily. When the Kashmir Governor was also ordered to participate in this mass conversion, because the Kashmiri Hindus were mostly PANDITS, they decided to ask for Guru teg bahdur Jis help. Thus they told the Kashmir Governor that they were going to see their Guru in Anandpur sahib and IF HE converted then they would too. Thus this delegation of Kashmiri Pandits appeared in Anandpur Sahib. Guur Ji heard their story and were deep in thought when the 9 year old Gobind Rai ji came and asked His father...why are you so deep in thought. Guur Ji replied..A great Sacrifice is necessary...Who could be greater then YOU, Pita Ji..replied Gobind Rai Ji. That was the answer Guur Ji was looking for and He made arrangements to travel to Delhi to meet the Emperor.
Guru Ji was accompanied by a large group of snagat when He left annadpur sahib. Stopping along the way Guru Ji did parchaar to awaken the populace to stand up against tyranny and not allow themselves to be ground under foot. A few miles out of Delhi Guur ji told everyoen to go back and ONLY Five Sikhs to follow him further. ON Arrival at Delhi Guur Ji was first taken before the Emperor. He first treated Guur Ji very nicely and with respect. He informed Guru ji that He was interested in making all of India into One strong nation under one Religion..Islam. Guru Ji told him..that is not the correct way. ALL religions lead towards the same God and everyone shoudl be completley free to practise his own beleifs in his own way. Guur Ji further told him that Now you have two major religions..Hindus and Muslims..soon there will be a Third..the KHALSA...in the House of Nanak.
( Some accounts have this story)
Guru Ji asked Aurengzeb to bring some black pepper seeds and wrap them up and burn them...when the fire died down..all were burnt except 3 seeds..Guru Ji told Aurengzeb..see, beside the Hindu and Islamic religion..there will be a THIRD..the SIKH KHALSA.

The Emperor then asked Guru Ji to perform some miracles to show proof that he was genuine holy man. He reminded Guru Ji that Ram Rai son of a fromer Guur had shown him so many miracles years before and as a result he ahd given Ram rai a Jagir and a dera. Guur Ji replied Miracle is against Natural law and a Travesty against God and His hukm. To a Sikh Miracle is Kahir...going against Hukm of the Creator. Then the Emperor said..either convert ot Islam or be prepared to DIE. Guur Ji replied..DEATH is as per His HUKM..no one can deny Death and I will Not convert just to escape death for a short while. Thus From among the Guru jid companions..Bhai  Mati Dass Ji was sawed alive, Bhai Dyala Ji was Boiled aliive,Bhai Sati Dass Ji was wrapped in cotton, soaked in kerosene and burnt alive..these were done in the Gurus presence to scare Him into converting. When this failed, the Emperor ordered that teh Guru betaken to Chnandi Chowk and beheaded in PUBLIC to serve as awarning to those still not converting as to the fate that awaited them. The Gurus dead body was to be left in the Chowk....BUT a strong storm accompanied with swirling sand descended soon after and a Sikh of the Guru passing by with his Gaddas of cotton was able to quickly carry off the gurus body in his gadda and another Sikh bahi jaita was able to carry off the severed Head. The Body was taken to a home and the Sikh set fire to his house as well as his gaddas full of cotton. A Gurdwara stands on this spot. The Sikh bhai jaita meanwhile carried the Head to Anandpur sahib where he presented it to Gobind Rai Ji. Bhai jaita was embraced by Gobind rai jis as Ranghreta Guru Ka Beta and the sees was cremated in Annadpur sahib. SEES diya  par sirrar na deeah..Guur teg babhdur Ji gave His HEAD but not his RESOLVE to Fight for religious FREEDOM.


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## kiram (May 1, 2009)

Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji... 

Gyani ji, thank you !!


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