# Bloody Fight Erupts At Brampton Sikh Temple



## Archived_Member16 (Apr 18, 2010)

_source: http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/797333_
*Bloody fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*

April 18, 2010 
Raveena Aulakh - The Star, Toronto, ON

Paramedics wheel away one of five victims injured in a brawl Sunday at Brampton's Guru Nanak Sikh Centre on Glidden Rd. According to witnesses several of the participants fought with hammers, machetes and construction knives. 
SUPPLIED PHOTO 

Five people are in hospital after two opposing groups clashed inside a Brampton Sikh temple Sunday afternoon.

The fight broke out at the Guru Nanak Sikh Centre at Glidden Rd. near Hwy 410 and Steeles Ave. when one group tried to break up the other group’s meeting. It started as a fistfight but witnesses say turbans soon flew and hammers, machetes and construction knives were brandished as a group of about 100 people clashed at about 3:45 p.m. 

The fight spilled outside as Peel Regional Police scrambled to take control, said witnesses. 

“It was quite chaotic,” said Jagdish Grewal, editor of _Punjabi Post, _a newspaper published in Brampton, who arrived minutes after the fight broke out and saw two men lying outside with a bloodied hammer between them. Others were being given first-aid and taken to hospital.

Inside the hall, where the scuffle happened, Grewal said knives and machetes were still lying on the floor along with torn blood-soaked clothes. “There was blood too on the tiles,” Grewal told the _Star_. 

At heart is the control of the temple but no one will say that openly. 

The management was not available to comment on Sunday’s violence but members of the temple said trouble had started brewing a couple of days earlier when the group opposing the management announced that it would hold a meeting inside the temple. 

“All we wanted was to have a meeting to discuss matters of the temple,” said Rampal Dhillon, who was inside the hall when the fight broke out. “We started the meeting at 3 p.m. and it was going smoothly when about two dozen people stormed inside.” 

They were wielding hammers, machetes and construction knives, said Dhillon, who lives in Dundas, near Hamilton. There was screaming and yelling as people shoved and pushed to get outside, he added. 

“It’s an ongoing dispute among the board members,” said Const. George Tudos of Peel Regional Police, adding that police had been called in earlier. “There was indication that there might be some trouble here.” 

This fight comes two weeks after Manjit Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was stabbed outside the Sikh Lehar Centre, a Sikh temple located barely a kilometre away from the temple at Glidden Rd. Witnesses had said at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the ceremonial dagger worn by baptized Sikhs, triggering a fresh controversy about Sikhs’ right to wear it.


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## spnadmin (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*

Control of management of the temple...a hammer, construction knives, machetes, blood soaked clothes?


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## curious seeker (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Control of management of the temple...a hammer, construction knives, machetes, blood soaked clothes?



Narayanjot Ji

 Eek!!! You guys better start getting things under control, expel the hot heads or do something, or Sikhi will begin to look to people all over the world like Islam

 Sorry but its got to be said

"Pray without ceasing"
 Curious


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



curious seeker said:


> Narayanjot Ji
> 
> Eek!!! You guys better start getting things under control, expel the hot heads or do something, or Sikhi will begin to look to people all over the world like Islam
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct, CS ji.

This is embarrassing, humiliating, disgusting, horifyinf, etc., etc., not to mention bad PR.  It's really sad that Guru Nanak's name is in the middle of all this.

Did everyone forget that 18 April is a double Gurupurab.

I feel sick.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Control of management of the temple...a hammer, construction knives, machetes, blood soaked clothes?



FIXING things ???


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## PCJ (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

KDS, you wanted to see the difference between religion and spirituality...

Here is one...


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



curious seeker said:


> Narayanjot Ji
> 
> Eek!!! You guys better start getting things under control, expel the hot heads or do something, or Sikhi will begin to look to people all over the world like Islam
> 
> ...



Curious Seeker ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your curiosity but it seems as also shown by your earlier posts in a different thread that you do not understand  Sikhi or in this case about the religious affairs of the Muslims either.

What is this thing about," You guys"? Why belittle others rather than offering sympathy and some inputs on new ideas?

I have no idea why this blatant statement from your part,"or Sikhi will begin to look to people all over the world like Islam".

One wonders what thought process went into it and how shallow it was.

Let's try to dissect things just for the sake of fact finding which is important for any seeker especially for the curious kind.

Sunni Mosques  all over the world are  built,controlled by the religiousos, from Saudi Arabia funded by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.One does not see any fights in the Mosques among the Muslims because of the heavy handed control. Most of the Prison Imams in the US are Wahhabi- the radical side of Islam ala Osama Bin Laden. 

The Shia mosques out side the Muslim countries are mainly controlled by the Ismaili Muslims also called the Aga Khanis , thus controlled by the Aga Khan honchos and one does not see any fights there either.

Please share with us if you have news about the in fightings in the mosques and post the URL.

Now, coming back the Sikh Gurdwaras. What happened in the other Gurdwara where Manjit Singh Mangat was stabbed has nothing to do with the fighting that took place in Brampton last weekend. These two happened for totally different reasons and both are awfully bad things to happen especially in a religious place. 

On the off set, I want to make it clear that I am not defending either of these horrendous acts but offering a reasoning for you.

All the Gurdwaras outside India are independently owned by the trusts of the local communities unlike the most Gurdwaras in India which are either managed by the SGPC or in Delhi managed by the DGPC. There is no centralised management in the Gurdwaras outside India as with the Mosques where the Muslims worship whom you compared to the Sikhs. The infightings are common because of different parties wanting to take control over the Gurdwara but rarely they get violent. 

Yes, unfortunately, lots of money is wasted in the court battles for the take over. It also happened in a city like Henderson, NV which  hardly has 100 to 150 Sikh families.

One of the famous Gurdwaras in Los Angeles called the Lankershim Gurdwara which had a committee changed in the beginning of this year had the similar situation. The previous committee had a Punjabi and Gurmat School for 500 students which also included adults. The next door building was bought for the retired and old people  for their recreation and was used for playing cards, board games etc etc and as usual Langar was served.

The new committee refused to continue the school and the other home for the old if the members of the old committee did not pay for all that.

This resulted in the old committee buying a closed church and open a new Gurdwara called the Khalsa Care Society. This same Gurdwara sponsors the "Singh Sensations" Basketball team which arranged the first basketball camp whose videos can be seen on SPN.

The Gurmat school continues in the new Gurdwara. Most of the people from the other Gurdwara visit this one now. The  Vaisakhi Nagar Keertan was also arranged by them for the first time.

In Democracy, certain things are not resolved in this manner as it was in the case of the Khalsa Care Society but it is a good example that other Gurdwaras should follow  rather than practicing violence which shows nothing but  that we are still controlled by the five thieves in us.  Gurbani teaches us how to control them rather than being controlled by them. 

Hopefully, these two different incidents happened for two different reasons will bring out some good Phoenixes from their ashes,so that things can be resolved in an amicable manner. Anger, rage, disdain, ego, false pride and lust are human traits. SGGS, our only Guru gives us the tools to handcuff them. Only if we understood and practiced what is said in Gurbani would help. Not praying to some deity or to something else. 

Common sense and wisdom given to us  by our Gurus would suffice if practiced upon in a diligent manner.

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> KDS, you wanted to see the difference between religion and spirituality...
> 
> Here is one...


I think that this one is more of a political issue, free of religious justification. At least I hope so...


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## ballym (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

Why in Canada all of a sudden... in quick succession? Manmohan asking harper out of context or any urgency.
Someone wants to prove something?
Kamal Nath teaching another lesson to sikhs? Lesson #2 after November 1984? 
How dare you file a case against me?


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## PCJ (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



BhagatSingh said:


> I think that this one is more of a political issue, free of religious justification. At least I hope so...


 
Since everything happens with His Hukam, this is how it meant to be. This is the outcome of an organized religion...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> Since everything happens with His Hukam, this is how it meant to be. This is the outcome of an organized religion...


If I understand you correctly, I think that's a _non sequitur_.
"It rains therefore I am Punjabi."
"Since everything is His hukam therefore this is organized religion."
in other words, your conclusion doesn't follow the presmise.


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## ballym (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

PCJ is back to pointing fingers. Give a solution please.If not sikhi what else.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

Ballym ji we are still trying to understand the problem. That's the first step to problem solving.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

Tejwant Singh ji,

I have the highest respect for you, but in this case I must disagree with you.

Everything you say is spot-on true, but that's not the point.  

The point is not what we are, but what others _perceive us to be.  _What is true here really doesn't matter to the public, only their  perceptions.  The public sees the Muslims as violent and turban-wearing.  The public is now seeing _us _as violent and turban wearing.  In addition, the public perception is that we make it a religious virtue to carry a _knife.  _They do not know or care about the difference between a kirpan and a mere knife.  I'm beginning to think this is true also of some Sikhs.

These violent events comprise two related problems.  The first is within our own community.  Sikh attacking Sikh with is simply unacceptable.  We have a serious rupture that must be healed unless we want to bleed to death.  As a people, I know we are not good at reaching peaceful solutions internally.  I submit that we had better learn quickly if we want to survive as a viable world religion.
Forget, for a moment our desire to survive as a community for our own good.  _For the good of humanity we must survive! _ The world badly needs what we have to offer.  We have an unbelievably precious treasure.  The answers to all of humanity's problems are in the teachings of SGGS ji Maharaj.  We have an obligation to be here to make this way of life available to those who want it.  

The second problem is with the larger human community.  We now look like a bunch of hooligans without either morality or self-control.  How on earth can we hope to convince others that we are a peaceful, law biding people, when these acts of blo.ody aggression are taking place in our houses of worship by our own members.  The public really doesn't care whether the reasons are religious or political;  they only see the acts themselves.  And the acts are damning.  They must stop.  

ikonkaar


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## PCJ (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



ballym said:


> PCJ is back to pointing fingers. Give a solution please.If not sikhi what else.


 
There might not be any solution. Solution is generally personal for every individual. Solution is that no individual needs to be part of organized religion in order to be closer to Lord. They simply need to practice the truth on their own...

Have a good, gotta go to work....


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Tejwant Singh ji,
> 
> I have the highest respect for you, but in this case I must disagree with you.
> 
> ...



Mai ji,

Guru Fateh.

Likewise. I have the highest regard for you but I have no fear about how others perceive us. We have to do a better job ourselves. What happened is shameless and disgusting, but that is not the point I was trying to make. Curious Seeker is not a Muslim. Muslims do not have fights in their mosques as mentioned by me in my other post.

Your point about Kirpan is another matter and is nothing to do with this thread. Yes, we reap what we sow. We can not carry the Kirpans on the planes now nor to the court houses. Does that make us bad Sikhs? I do not think so. If we are not able to respect our symbols then we do not deserve to carry them. Simply put. But this discussion is for another thread and for some other time.

You must have read the essay by my 14 year old son Trimaan which he did for his English class and posted it here and how he as an individual solved the problem about him being called Osama in his middle school.

The perception of us being Muslims is much less now than it was during 9-11. Organisations like the Sikh Coalition, Saldef, United Sikhs have done a magnificent job about this after 9-11.

But it is cheeky and rather ignorant on some member's part who is not a Muslim  to utter this kind of blatant unthoughtful statement  of comparison and  the funny part is that the same person has been trying  to propagate his own faith in this forum.

It is nothing to do with that. Yes, some may call us violent and rightfully so and we must mend that within the community by following our only Guru, the SGGS.

Let's  try to find the root cause together so we can find the solutions from the Gurmat Ideals given to us in the SGGS.

This kind of rhetoric about " You People" does not do any good but belittles no matter what hue,creed or faith one belongs to.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

Gurufateh to you as well, Tejwant ji,

I believe we are in completely agreement as to the basics.  And it is true that the only legitimate way to solve Problem#2 (the perceptions of the larger community) is to solve Problem #1 (the problem of intolerance leading to violence in our own community).

Actually, I somehow missed your son's essay.  I read it just now ans you certainly have cause to be proud of your son.  One very small point, I believe the word "not" was left out of the second sentence, "What they do realize is the ignorance behind their mentality; their  “lack of knowledge."


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## Bahadar S (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> Since everything happens with His Hukam, this is how it meant to be. This is the outcome of an organized religion...


 
Everyhting is within the Hukam of the Akaal Purakh nothing is out and everything done always has a positive side. Although it is very embarrssing to see our fellow Sikh's doing this.


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## Archived_Member16 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

*Sikh Canadians Horrified by Violence: World Sikh Organization of Canada *







*OTTAWA, ONTARIO -- (Marketwire) -- 04/19/10* -- The World Sikh Organization of Canada (WSO) joins the Sikh community in Canada in expressing horror and disappointment at the incident at Brampton's Sri Guru Nanak Sikh Centre in which several individuals were injured. Violence cannot and should not be tolerated and WSO strongly condemns the events that took place. 

This incident is not linked to the incident which took place on April 2, 2010 at the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton. 

The Sikh faith teaches tolerance and love. Incidents like these do not represent the Sikh community or Sikh values. It is even more unfortunate that these incidents have taken place this month as Sikhs celebrate Vaisakhi, one of the most important Sikh festivals of the year, which marks the formation of the Khalsa, the final form of the Sikh faith. At a time when Sikhs want to share their tolerant and inclusive religious values with their fellow Canadians and celebrate their over 100 year history in Canada, irresponsible and unacceptable behavior by some has cast a shadow over the entire community. 

<!--portletbreak-->WSO president Prem Singh Vinning said, "These incidents aren't representative of the Sikh community and are against the principles of the Sikh faith. Violence to resolve disputes is not the Sikh way and it's not the Canadian way. The Sikh community must step forward and ensure that those responsible are held accountable and not allowed to malign the image of the community any further." 

WSO's senior policy advisor Gian Singh Sandhu said, "It's tragic that the Sikh community's image is hostage to the irresponsible actions of a few individuals. They aren't representative of the Sikh community at large. We are all shocked by what has happened and we need to make sure that the average Canadian Sikh, who is repulsed by incidents like this, is brought to the forefront. It's a shame that these recent events seem to have eclipsed all the good work the Sikh community has been doing across Canada like raising hundreds of thousands for the relief work in Haiti or contributions by the community to local hospitals in Surrey and Brampton. The Sikh community is not violent and the image created by these incidents is not fair." 

The onus is now on Canadian Sikhs to ensure that those individuals who act irresponsibly are sidelined and not allowed to further harm the Sikh image. 
The World Sikh Organization of Canada (WSO) is a non-profit organization with a mandate to promote and protect the interests of the Sikh Diaspora, as well as to promote and advocate for the protection of human rights for all individuals, irrespective of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, and social and economic status. 

Please visit www.worldsikh.ca or www.twitter.com/worldsikhorg for further information. 

Contacts:
World Sikh Organization of Canada
Gian Singh Sandhu
604-341-2755
gianssandhu@gmail.com

World Sikh Organization of Canada
Balpreet Singh
416-904-9110
balpreetsingh@worldsikh.org
www.worldsikh.ca


<SMALL>© 2008 SYS-CON Media Inc.</SMALL>


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## spnadmin (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Bahadar S said:


> Everyhting is within the Hukam of the Akaal Purakh nothing is out and everything done always has a positive side. Although it is very embarrssing to see our fellow Sikh's doing this.



Will the positive side be that perhaps now we are shaken out of our slumber? About this, and other problems as well?

I do have another question. From the article: The onus is now on Canadian Sikhs to ensure that  those individuals who act irresponsibly are sidelined and not allowed to  further harm the Sikh image.

How do we proceed?


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## ballym (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> There might not be any solution. Solution is generally personal for every individual. Solution is that no individual needs to be part of organized religion in order to be closer to Lord. They simply need to practice the truth on their own...


6 billion in the world are not enlightened as you. They need religious prop/support. As you keep infoming,  people can answer.


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## curious seeker (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



> Curious Seeker ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




 Hello

 Frankl,y 'SIR' I could not care less of what your opinion is  regarding me or my presumed and assumed, by you, lack of knowledge of Sikkhi, in fact i do not wish any contact with you  whatsoever. So please kindly ignore me just I will studiously ignore you and do not respond to my posts, OK?


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## Bahadar S (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Will the positive side be that perhaps now we are shaken out of our slumber? About this, and other problems as well?
> 
> I do have another question. From the article: The onus is now on Canadian Sikhs to ensure that those individuals who act irresponsibly are sidelined and not allowed to further harm the Sikh image.
> 
> How do we proceed?


 Gurufateh Ji.
I sure hope so we wake up and understand because to non Sikhs this is tarnishing are image.


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## Admin (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Curious Seeker ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Gurfateh Tejwant Ji and Curious Seeker Ji

Tejwant Ji, as always, you have beautifully and aptly summed up the situation by putting forth the present situation in due perspective. 

Let us move ahead with our discussion, which may or may not be off-topic but i think we can deviate a little to explore all the possibilities...

In your post above you have mentioned that there is no fighting in Muslim Mosques... well, apparently, this is due to that fact that Muslim world is already split into half as there are either 100% Shia Mosques or 100% Sunni Mosques... so any chances of in-fighting in these Mosques are quite remote as only like minded Muslims gather in these Mosques... now, moving forward if we realise that there is always in-fighting going on between the Shia & Sunni Mosques... every other day we hear the news that Shia men or Sunni men entered the Mosque and butchered the umteen number of members of the followers of opposite schools of thoughts. If we google such reference we can find thousands of these incidents recorded in newspapers...

Now coming back, don't you think that exactly the same is happening in Sikhism... We may agree or not but unfortunately, Sikh Panth has split into either 100% Pro-DGers or 100% Anti-DGers, which is not even the Guru of Sikhs and also, there is a third category which is badly entangled into these two categories... and in-fighting, it seems, has already started... so the situation of Sikhs is going to be even worse if we are not awaken to reality...


*Admin Note: Curious Seeker Ji, i would humbly request you to kindly cool off a bit... if we disagree on something then let us simply put forth our perspectives and move ahead without keeping any ill feelings against each other... Surely, we have a great deal to learn from the interactions between both you and Tejwant Ji. Let us start afresh. :thumbsupp:

Chardi Kala! :ice:

Gurfateh

*


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object  classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  Aman ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is the duty of a Sikh to learn, unlearn and relearn daily, thanks to our Guide and Guru, SGGS.

This is the beauty of being a Sikh. We walk naked from the within. Our Baana is its proof.

Before I comment on our present dire situation, I would like to clarify one thing that is that I only talked about the Mosques which are not located in the Muslim countries in my post. The butchering among the Muslims happens daily in the Muslim countries or where the majority is Muslim. It does not happen especially in the Western world where millions of Muslims live. This is a very important point to notice. 

Now, coming back to our situation, in my opinion it is much worse than the Muslims. The Muslims although claiming to belong to a monotheistic religion created divisions between themselves because they could not agree upon "The Successor of the Messenger of Alláh  and his first Caliph", after the death of  Prophet Mohammed in 632.

So, in other words they are divided and the hatred between them has been brewing ever since for a person, a man, not for the God they serve or seek and they shamelessly kill each other daily. It shows their tribal mentality.

But ours is supposed to be the modern path, a pragmatic way of life with reasoning and common sense only if we follow SGGS, our only Guru.

Our divisions are much greater but not as deep. We are all treading in shallow waters. What I mean by this is that as there is no priesthood in Sikhi which is a very visionary and bold thinking by our Gurus, each of us becomes a Priest, a Pastor, an Imam etc. etc. We all carry the burden of being truthful and caretakers of Sikhi as individuals. 

But the other side of the coin is, people have taken advantage of this great opportunity and created their own sects. AKJ, Nanaksar, Gobind Sadan, Naam Dhari, Nirankari, Radasoami, just to name a few and many more cropping up like mushrooms daily. 

They are all charlatans and use their Baanas and SGGS as the calling cards to attract the lazy ones which are in millions who are too lethargic to read, study, understand and practice Gurbani. Parroting Gurbani and going to the yearly pilgrimages have become the mode de jour, a feel good, chest thumping me-ism way of living. We have become the birds of a feather but with an ugly plumage.

One of the charlatans’ video is posted by Gyani ji: Sant baba Hari Singh Randhawa Harian welan waala who attracts the lazy ones with his kachi baani and utter nonsense. 

As the saying goes that “we should take the longer scenic route”, and that is what our Gurus told us to do by giving each of us the responsibility to be the Nishaan Sahib bearers of Sikhi, but unfortunately we always look for the short cuts rather than following our Gurus’ instructions. Today, one can pay by Paypal and have an Akand path done at Harmader Sahib. 

We have not left our Hindu mentality that our Gurus tried so hard for us to give up. This is the reason we have Gurdwaras from all kinds of Hindu castes imaginable.

We wear our baanas as Hindu wear janieus. Unfortunately the five Kakaars have become dogmatic and sadly lost the luster of pragmatism that they were originally created for by our Dasam Pita. The recent incidents are the proofs of that.

Talking about the inner and outer rehat is very interesting and important. This is the foundation of the concept of Miri- Piri, the phrase coined by our 6<sup>th</sup> Guru, Guru Hargobind but the first brick of this laid by Guru Nanak.

If one wants to stand out, one has to strive to become outstanding at the same time. The outer can not be a façade made of papier-mâché, like the hotels built in <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Las Vegas</st1:city> with the names like Paris, Venetian, Caesar’s Palace and many more. Like these sand castles built on the desert sands of <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Nevada</st1:state>, if our outer rehat is not the ends to the means from our inner selves, then we are as fake as the edifices mentioned above. The inner rehat is like a musical instrument, when played, its music manifests/echoes in the outer one. It is like the perfect Jazz piece- Bossa Nova.

The inner music shows our outer dance steps. If one is out of step, it becomes self evidentiary with time. So, the inner and outer rehat must be like Ying and Yang.

But not all is lost. These incidents have given us the opportunity to look within.

 We read everyday in Rehraas: “Dukh daaro, Sukh rogh bheiyah”. Many Sikh scholars translate this “suffering as medicine (dukh daru) and pleasure as disease (sukh rog), since pleasure seduces one's mind away from Ik Ong Kaar.

In my opinion Guru Nanak is talking about the failures in life and the results of which is suffering. So, falling down is very important because then only we can learn how to get up, dust off and carry on which breeds the spirit of Chardi Kala- the spirit of, “ never become a quitter  no matter how many times one fails and suffers the pain of the failures".

”The knee scrapes” that life brings us are very important and some of them leave scars to remind us the importance of failures which help us fine tune the inner rehat with the outer one. So, the healing ointment- the lesson from these failures come through the sufferings they bring.

As someone said:” Inner nakedness can not be clothed from the outside no matter how beautiful the vestments one wears may appear”.

This is the true message to all of us by Guru Nanak.

Regards.
  Tejwant Singh


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## Sinister (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Will the positive side be that perhaps now we are shaken out of our slumber?


 
unfortunately i think the slumber is still deep...REM stage

The only positive I could think of, is the fact that these perpetrators are going to the slammer for hopefully a real loooong time, where there will be lots of time for them to civilly debate "sikhism" with Big Bubba in cell block c.


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## kds1980 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> KDS, you wanted to see the difference between religion and spirituality...
> 
> Here is one...



As usual Religion bashers are quick to Point out this.Are you going to praise sikhism for the following

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/united-sikhs/29012-haiti-earthquake-survivors-get-hot-meals.html


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## PCJ (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



ballym said:


> 6 billion in the world are not enlightened as you. They need religious prop/support. As you keep infoming, people can answer.


 
Obviously, they keep looking at the wrong places like religion as those who are misled themselves can not lead others in the right direction but they keep forgetting that the best place to find it is within themselves...


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## PCJ (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Kanwardeep Singh said:


> As usual Religion bashers are quick to Point out this.Are you going to praise sikhism for the following
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/united-sikhs/29012-haiti-earthquake-survivors-get-hot-meals.html


 
This is Lord's Law and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Since everything in this world happens as per Lord's Law, the outcome of any religion is what's being discussed in this topic....

As far as the charities go, they serve more the people in them than the needy. Charities are more like job security for the people running them, in fact very profitable...


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## kds1980 (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> This is Lord's Law and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Since everything in this world happens as per Lord's Law, the outcome of any religion is what's being discussed in this topic....
> 
> As far as the charities go, they serve more the people in them than the needy. Charities are more like job security for the people running them, in fact very profitable...



So now charities are also wrong.No one should donate. any penny to any charity
as their is corruption in charity.If sikhs do any sewa or charity they are serving themselves.

People these days can do one thing talk-talk talk.Bash religion ,bash politicians ,bash everything if they could have done of 5% some positive work toward in real life then many things could have been changed.


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## PCJ (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Kanwardeep Singh said:


> So now charities are also wrong.No one should donate. any penny to any charity
> as their is corruption in charity.If sikhs do any sewa or charity they are serving themselves.
> 
> People these days can do one thing talk-talk talk.Bash religion ,bash politicians ,bash everything if they could have done of 5% some positive work toward in real life then many things could have been changed.


 
This is God's Law that when someone is rich, someone else has to be poor.

Generally gullible people get sucked into donating money to charities and religious places. But the fact is charities and religious places are another way for people to give themselves jobs...

Recently, a daughter sued her father over charity. If charities weren't profitable, why would on on this earth they sue each other?


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## Bmandur (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Control of management of the temple...a hammer, construction knives, machetes, blood soaked clothes?


Why don't they screw them self before they use the hammer on others. They need a Hammer on there own forehead.<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Any Gurudwara you go to all about is the Money & Power
As I mention before One Gurudwara I know for 29 years but last 10 Ten year one family holds the Gurudwara accounts tell me is this FARE 
One family and next two year again it has given to that same family if you want to know accounts update from them. in tere eyes youare bad guys so it's better Close your eyes put a hand on yor Lips finger in your ears and let them use the Power be safe at home
like Bapu ke teen bandher ( Gandhi Three Monky)

Why they have to use a Hammer or Knives Just Thinks Guys
All they want a* POWR HUNGRY*

*People like those who use KNIVES, Hammer Matches Through them out of the society plus who are Power Hungary them too..*

*0% Tolerance*
*Gurfateh*
</SPAN>


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## curious seeker (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Aman Singh said:


> Gurfateh Tejwant Ji and Curious Seeker Ji
> 
> Tejwant Ji, as always, you have beautifully and aptly summed up the situation by putting forth the present situation in due perspective.
> 
> ...


 

Ok Now let's see. This person engages me in an argument. When he can not produce any evidence for his positions,he starts with accusations and ad hoc attacks,  saying that I have a hidden agenda and that i want to do this or want to do that, He states I have no knowledge etc. I agree that I lack knowledge. 

BUT THE ARGUMENT IS REALLY NOT about Sikhi!!! 

It does not deal with doctrine at all, but with the self evident fact that religions are not plants that sprout off the ground y themselves. Some one had to prosleityze others to get Jews, Christians,  Muslims, Sikhs, or whatever. IF the great proselityzer himself Jesus the Christ, had not proselityzed, there would not be any Christians today. That is not a theory, that is a fact, as true as that the sun shines in the day time. It does not require an Iota of knowledge of any religion to realize the truth of that fact. 

For making that, self evidently true argument, now I stand accused, by this person, of propagandizing my faith and lectured, even after I asked to be left alone!!  Its totally irrational to deny this and has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing Sikhi.

  When you , the administrators got involved in the dispute, I wrote that I wanted no part of the discussion (It was MY thread by the way) Then I say something in another thread and the same guy, who was borderline abusive before, starts up with similar comments. So when I tell him to back off, he gets praised and I get warned? Whats wrong? Then he sends me a personal note which I have copied to another member, in which he again starts with a whole series of , to be VERY kind, senseles accusations.  

You know what? if this is the way Sikhs behave? Is this the degree of civil discourse and fairness they display? Because if it is IT PUTS THE LIE TO EVERYTHING THE GURUS SAID and, if this is the way this list is run I think I should re-evaluate my opinions on both and maybe some people ought to start looking in the mirror.

  I am just sorry I was 'ignorant' enough to actually contribute. ro SPN. Maybe this 'Tewant' person can be  persuaded to refund the money of the 'ignorant' one? Needless to say i won't hold my breath waiting.

Come to think of it this might be a microcosm of the problems  I been reading about here in SPN. Its just that some use machetes and others verbal abuse and lying accusations, They are all engaging in violence in one way or another, and unjust violence at that.

What a crying shane, you could have been something great!, like your founders were. Or perhasps that too is a mirage?  After all those engaging in the abuse and the violence are Sikhs and sometimes they are even Praised! Like for example:

" Tejwant Ji, as always, you have beautifully and aptly summed up the situation by putting forth the present situation in due perspective. "

 Of course I will probably be accused of being a plant by Hindus, or Islamists or whatever irrational conspiracies you guys live involved in. So 
what, I am saying the truth as I see it! If the shoe fts wear it!

 Man ... he always soils what he treasures! Sad truly sad!

 Hasta la vista!


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## spnadmin (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Bmandur said:


> Why don't they screw them self before they use the hammer on others. They need a Hammer on there own forehead.
> Any Gurudwara you go to all about is the Money & Power
> As I mention before One Gurudwara I know for 29 years but last 10 Ten year one family holds the Gurudwara accounts tell me is this FARE
> One family and next two year again it has given to that same family if you want to know accounts update from them. in tere eyes youare bad guys so it's better Close your eyes put a hand on yor Lips finger in your ears and let them use the Power be safe at home
> ...




It is heart-breaking. It is not human. It could be different.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: ****** fight erupts at Brampton Sikh temple*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> It is heart-breaking. It is not human. It could be different.



It will be different.


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## Admin (Apr 21, 2010)

> I am just sorry I was 'ignorant' enough to actually contribute. ro SPN.  Maybe this 'Tewant' person can be  persuaded to refund the money of the  'ignorant' one? Needless to say i won't hold my breath waiting.



Gurfateh Curious Seeker Ji

I am not sure what went on between you and Tejwant Ji but you did disappoint me with your reply today. 

The matter of refunding the donations, you could have easily resolved with the administration privately but as the beans have been spilled, i think, i would like to make a point quite clear here... If you think by making a donation or a sweet talk, anybody else can get away with undermining Sikhism then, i think, you are 'playing' pretty naive around here. And there is no such thing as you said (It was MY thread by the way) in a public forum. 

At your age and life experiences, i am shocked to learn that you are painting all and sundry with the same tainted glasses. *It is very easy to point fingers on others' faith.* Our learned members could have easily questioned your faith or belief system but they chose not to because they know that its a futile exercise and more often than not, ends up like in childish bragging just like in this case. However, if somebody did question your faith, you feel quite offended then whose fault is this? 

Further, owning solely to you presence at SPN, we opened up a special new section dedicated to Zoroastrianism for further study but you did not bothered even once to share your faith and philosophy with us... You have only focused your energies on pointing fingers at Sikhs lately. Whose fault is this?

Sikhs may have let down their Gurus but Sikhs are not in a denial and are quite awake to the issues we are facing and are more than capable of resovling these issues without "outer"  intervention. You or Anybody for that is more than welcome to explore and learn about Sikh philosophy and its comparative study with other philosophies in the interfaith section and we will never ever intervene in your quest but please do mind that your domain ends where undermining of Sikhism begins... 

And finally, donation is a voluntary way of showing your (anybody's) appreciation of our efforts of voluntarily managing a wide spectrum of views and perspectives. And, certainly, that does not mean the person can expect any kind of preferential treatment for this gesture. _Needless to say your donated money has been refunded as it has lost its meaning._

I would not indulge in any further dialogue on this topic. If anybody has any issues then you are more than welcome to get in touch with me via Private Messaging.

My apologies if this caused any offense but i had clarify our stand on this issue.

Gurfateh!

Aman Singh


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## kds1980 (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



PCJ said:


> This is God's Law that when someone is rich, someone else has to be poor.
> 
> Generally gullible people get sucked into donating money to charities and religious places. But the fact is charities and religious places are another way for people to give themselves jobs...
> 
> Recently, a daughter sued her father over charity. If charities weren't profitable, why would on on this earth they sue each other?



So No one should help poor through charities.Great enlightened words from
a unique spiritual human


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Kanwardeep Singh said:


> So No one should help poor through charities.Great enlightened words from
> a unique spiritual human




Gurbani in structs us clearly..
"Akleean Sahib Seveah..Akleean keeceh DAAN..."
Meaning Use you God bestowed INTELLECT..to serve Him..use the same God bestowed Intellect to serve the...poor, the downtrodden, the hungry..the naked...
Again...Guru dee Goluck..GREEB da MOONH....meaning..the Gurus donation "box" is the Poor mans MOUTH.

Today we have forgoten that clear message.
TODAY..we DONT use the God bestowed "intellect"...we just Give and then wash our hands off...Guur Ji will PUNISH those who misuse the Goluck/donations...meaning I dotn care if the money i donated reaches the poor the unfed the naked the homeless..or is used to buy mansions and cars for the Baba who owns the Gurdwara..or the Gurdwara Pardhan to buy liquor to buy votes for hsi presidency...let the GURU settle the scores. That attitude is ABDICATION of our responsibility.

TDAY..the "GOLUCK" is a LOCKED BOX of STEEL that has not just one or tow locks..BUT multiple Locks and chains of steel...alarms and security cameras to watch it..( and thieves to steal from it ). Today the Goluck is a means to control Gurdwaras..to buy votes..to cause fights....to ENRICH ones-self..to live a luxurious life...and the GREEB is kept as far away from the Gurdwara as humanly possible..DHAKKEH Maar ke !!


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## PCJ (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Bloo.dy Fight Erupts at Brampton Sikh Temple*



Kanwardeep Singh said:


> So No one should help poor through charities.Great enlightened words from
> a unique spiritual human


 
There has to be a better way to help than charities. All these little groups are out there more for themselves than anybody else.

However, I bet you one thing, even if everybody in this world were given a million dollar, within very short period of time, people would become rich and poor because it all depends on how you spend and invest your money.

Theory of relativity pretty much applies in everything in life and it does in being wealthy as well. Someone who has $10.00 thinks someone with $100.00 is rich. Someone with $100.00 thinks that someone with $1000.00 is rich. But if you give $1000.00 to the guy who currently has only $10.00. Within very period of time, he will become poor again compared to the rich guy. This is because the guy currently with $1000.00 knows how to wisely use his money.

Like they say, if you give them a fish, it will last for only one day. But if you teach them how to fish, it will last the lifetime.

On a side note though, I expect you to be better debater than you are right now. The problem with you is that you start something, then I prove you wrong and then instead of accepting and being humble about it  that you are wrong, you change the subject. Then I prove you wrong in the newly created subject, then you change the subject again.


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## kds1980 (Apr 21, 2010)

> On a side note though, I expect you to be better debater than you are right now. The problem with you is that you start something, then I prove you wrong and then instead of accepting and being humble about it  that you are wrong, you change the subject. Then I prove you wrong in the newly created subject, then you change the subject again.



Do you even think that any sane person will seriously debate with you?:veryhappymunda1::veryhappymunda1:

You just type reply and believe that what you wrote is right and the other is wrong


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