# The Mother Of Waahiguroo?



## Archived_member2 (Aug 13, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Sikhs perhaps know Waahiguroo. May I ask who is the mother of Waahiguroo?


Balbir Singh


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## Arvind (Aug 14, 2007)

Balbir ji,

Mool Mantra has one word "Saibhang"... you may like to pay attention to that!

Regards, Arvind.


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## Dimitri (Aug 14, 2007)

Is this suppose to be a joke or proper question?
just a polite inquiry.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 14, 2007)

This is the Sargun Truth of God.


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## spnadmin (Aug 14, 2007)

If you figure that God has hands and a personal guru, then why not imagine that God also has a mother? It all fits together from the perspective of the continuing paradigm.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "If you figure that God has hands and a personal guru, then why not imagine that God also has a mother? It all fits together from the perspective of the continuing paradigm."
All my references are from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. I hope and pray the true Guru inspires all, not the preachers.


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (Aug 15, 2007)

I'm itching to know the answer.


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## spnadmin (Aug 15, 2007)

Veer Begum ji, So am I.  

There are 376 references to the word "mother" in _Siri Guru Granth Sahib. _However different words are used to refer to "mother" and the context can make the meaning change. This is the case with many eastern languages, including Punjabi and Gurmukhi -- where i*mplication rules.* 

All this means is that words say more than the literal translation would state directly. And the literal meaning of a word is likely to change even in casual conversation.* Implication* is found in every language, but some languages depend on i*mplication* more than others, and Sanskrit-based languages like Gurmukhi are at the upper end of *implication use. *Turkish (in a different language family) is probably the most extreme example of a language where* implication* is as important as grammar in written and spoken communication.

So sometimes the word *maath* is used and makes a comparison to an earthly mother. As on  Page 203 Line 10  _Raag Gaurhee Bairaagan:_ Guru Arjan Dev:

mwq ipqw suq bMDpo qUM myry pRwx ADwr ]
_maath pithaa suth bandhhapo thoon maerae praan adhhaar ||_
You are my mother, father, son and relative; You are the Support of the breath of life.

Or,  sometimes we see a phrase like this, where *mother* is understood to be the *Mother - Soul.  *Page 226 Line 13  _Raag Gaurhee:_ Guru Nanak Dev:

 nwm ibnw ikau jIvw mwie ]
_ naam binaa kio jeevaa maae ||_
Without the Naam, how can I live, O mother?

And there are other words for _mother_ as well with various meanings.  In fact someone could write an academic paper about the uses of the word _mother_ in SGGS dev ji, and contribute to the world's understanding of Sikhi. 

Until we know which line you are talking about Baldir ji, the mystery will not be solved. 

BTW - The question, Does God have a *brother?* would go hand in hand with this discussion.  There are 80 references to brother in _Siri Guru Granth Sahib, _with equally interesting *implications. *

Bye for now... and humble apologies to all speakers of Punjabi who could explain the part about implication better than I.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

I am curious. Surprisingly I found so many inquisitive seekers.

Let me try to rebuild the question.
The word 'Waahiguroo' occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee thirteen times. Only Gayand Jee used the word 'Waahiguroo'. It is to read twelve times on Ang 1402 and once on Ang 1403.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
"vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o."
Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahi Jee-o.

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
"kaval nain maDhur bain kot sain sang sobh kahat maa jasod jisahi dahee bhaat khaahi jee-o." SGGS 1402-12
Lotus eyes, sweet speech and embellished with millions of companions mother Jasoda says to whom eat curd and rice Jee-o.

In this wonderful praise of Waahiguroo Gayand Jee is adorning Krishna, the incarnation of the Sustainer, Vishnu with His Attributes. 
My curiosity is to know the Truth. Is Waahiguroo mentioned by Gayand Jee in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is Krishna? Is His mother Jasoda?


Balbir Singh


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## kds1980 (Aug 15, 2007)

I am also surprised that why are sikhs still alive in this world guru nanak dev ji clearly
said

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
जउ तउ प्रेम खेलण का चाउ ॥ 
Jao ṯao parėm kẖėlaṇ kā cẖāo. 
If you desire to play this game of love with Me, 


ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ 
सिरु धरि तली गली मेरी आउ ॥ 
Sir ḏẖar ṯalī galī mėrī āo. 
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

i am sure that sikhs should start cutting their head and should walk on path of sikhis with 
head in their hands


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## spnadmin (Aug 15, 2007)

kds ji

There should also be many one-eyed Christians -- as Matthew 29 quotes Jesus of Nazareth to say -- if thy eye offend thee, then pluck it out.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 15, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Kds1980 Jee!

Quote "i am sure that sikhs should start cutting their head and should walk on path of sikhis with 
head in their hands"
Please explain it. Which word from the referred Vaak is to understand 'cutting'?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 15, 2007)

Now we are making progress, now having the page numbers from Sri Guru Granth Sahib dev ji to work with.

The verse

 kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ]
_ kaval nain madhhur bain kott sain sang sobh kehath maa jasodh jisehi dhehee bhaath khaahi jeeo ||_
_ You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice_.

It is interesting is that Yashoda is the foster mother of Krishna, entrusted to care for the little god. She nourishes him with her friendship and protects him from his tendency to cause trouble – as in running around stealing butter from the neighbors.

So the verse suggests that we are *not *talking about a *real* mother, but a *surrogate.* Perhaps the verse reminds us that our mother on earth is also a *surrogate*. Yashoda has been entrusted to nourish and raise up the godliness of Krishna. So now in return, she invites the *You *_the Creator_ to eat sweet rice. In other words, she is giving a sweet gift to Waheguru. 

The phrase *she invites You as Krishna* does not mean Waheguru is the same as Krishna. It means Yashoda is  making a sweet offering to Waheguru, just as she offered sweets to Krishna. The entire shabad is in praise of Waheguru.

Conclusion: Yashoda is not portrayed as the mother of Waheguru in this particular scenario.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 16, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Thanks for your post.
The first Vaak of this Sabad says "Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahi Jee-o."
The next Vaak of the same Sabad says "kahat maa jasod jisahi" mother Jasoda says to whom.
Please explain it. From where the word 'Krishna' has come in the mind of the translator?

Quote "So the verse suggests that we are not talking about a real mother, but a surrogate."
May I ask which words of the verse suggest that?

Quote "It is interesting is that Yashoda is the foster mother of Krishna, entrusted to care for the little god."
Perhaps some have come to know little God and the mother as Forster. I find HIM always Great.

Quote "Conclusion: Yashoda is not portrayed as the mother of Waheguru in this particular scenario."
May I ask? Gayand Jee portrayed Yashoda as the mother of Whose in this particular scenario?


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (Aug 16, 2007)

(1402-11)
sava-ee-ay mahlay cha-uthay kay 4
Swaiyas In Praise Of The Fourth Mehl:
vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o. 
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. 
kaval nain maDhur bain kot sain sang sobh kahat maa jasod jisahi dahee bhaat khaahi jee-o. 
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice. 
daykh roop at anoop moh mahaa mag bha-ee kinknee sabad jhanatkaar khayl paahi jee-o. 
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight. 
kaal kalam hukam haath kahhu ka-un mayt sakai ees bamm-yu ga-yaan Dhayaan Dharat hee-ai chaahi jee-o. 
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts. 
sat saach saree nivaas aad purakh sadaa tuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o. ||1||6|| 
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6|| ​ 

Yasoda was Krishna's earthly mother. Krishna isn't God or Waheguru. This is where your understanding flawed. You assumed that Krishna was Waheguru. If you take the whole shabad as above, you will clearly see the picture instead of only one or two pieces of the puzzle.


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## Astroboy (Aug 16, 2007)




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## spnadmin (Aug 16, 2007)

Begum ji

*"Yasoda was Krishna's earthly mother. Krishna isn't God or Waheguru. This is where your understanding flawed. You assumed that Krishna was Waheguru. If you take the whole shabad as above, you will clearly see the picture instead of only one or two pieces of the puzzle."

*Thanks Begum ji, That is the point entirely. If it were not, the Sikhism would be one more example of a polytheistic religion -- which it is not. Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts. They yearn to merge into the One - Waheguru. And I had a picture of Kashoda pushing Krishna on a swing but can't figure out how to upload images.

So the picture is great and also makes the point: We don't have pictures of Waheguru for obvious reasons. Anyway, the shabad stands on its own as a exquisite poetry. Are we not fortunate to have religious teaching that is also magnificent poetry?


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## spnadmin (Aug 16, 2007)

Balbir ji

Nanaak dev ji knew the story of Yashoda perfectly well because it comes from the Indic record. Should be corrected to indicate that it was the Bhatts, and not Nanaak, who were drawing on the Vendantic tradition in composing this shabad. It is a charming story of a mother's unrelenting and unconditional love and friendship for her "son". The choice of Yashoda is in fact perfect as a poetic image. 

The story doesn't come from Guru ji. It comes from the Vedantic tradition. Yashoda was entrusted by Vishnu with the care of Krishna -- who was a panga-master from childhood. Yashoda was never able to accept the Oneness of God. So, Krishna tormented her with childish pranks, like stealing butter. But she never relented in her love for him. 

The image
 Yashoda represents the yearning to love God in an earthly form on the earthly plane in an earthly way. She is so close -- Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight. But she is not quite there -- she is the image of our imperfect love. Still lost in duality.

My imperfect understanding.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 16, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all Begum Jee!

Quote "Yasoda was Krishna's earthly mother. Krishna isn't God or Waheguru. This is where your understanding flawed. You assumed that Krishna was Waheguru. If you take the whole shabad as above, you will clearly see the picture instead of only one or two pieces of the puzzle."

The word Waahiguroo occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee in the Hymns from Gayand Jee. He is praising Waahiguroo with the Attributes of Vishnu and His incarnations.
Another source of the word Waahiguroo is the poetry from Bhai Gurdas Jee. He also suggests that the source of this word were the combination of the first letters of the four incarnations of Vishnu. Is it not so?

The search should now go on why preachers have entitled this word Waahiguroo for the Supreme Lord above all?
The reverend Gurus never spoke or wrote the word Waahiguru nor they called it Gurumantra? At least I have not found it up to now.

**************

Quote from Aad002 Jee "So the picture is great and also makes the point: We don't have pictures of Waheguru for obvious reasons."
No Hindu could convince me if the pictures of their Gods are true photographs or paintings. Also, no Sikh could convince me why they have imaginary paintings of their Gurus they treat as Gods.


Balbir Singh


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## Arvind (Aug 16, 2007)

Somehow this complete thread and ongoing discussion surprises me that how people get hold of one word and make a chutney out of that.

So the discussion is leading to that Krishan is Waheguru, and Yashoda ji is her mother.... I am all wowww (!!!) at this. These sound like perfect examples of brainwashing to me. Therefore I dont think I will participate in this discussion.

Care to ponder over:
Mai na Ganeshe Pratham manau
Kishan bishan kab hu na dhiaoo
kaan sunai pehchaan na tin so
liv laagi mori pag in so...


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 16, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Arvind Jee!

Please write the Guru's Sabad correctly. We may discuss this wonderful Hymn then.

Quote "These sound like perfect examples of brainwashing to me."
This is right. Preachers have tried their best to brainwash the simple Folks.

Balbir Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 16, 2007)

Dear all,

The following composition is by the Bhatts.  In the following they have in ecstasy expressed their love for the Guru.


kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ]_kaval nain madhhur bain kott sain sang sobh kehath maa jasodh jisehi dhehee bhaath khaahi jeeo ||_

_Your lotus-eyes, sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. You are __the one __(implying that for them (for the bhatts) your are the Krishna incarnate) to whom Mother Yashoda asks to eat the sweet rice_.


Balbir ji , Why are your misleading and/or winding people up.

For all, please read the history of the Bhatts to understand this topic better.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Arvind (Aug 16, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all and Arvind Jee!
> 
> Please write the Guru's Sabad correctly. We may discuss this wonderful Hymn then.
> ...


Dear Sir,

I couldnt find the Shabad in gurmukhi font so couldnt paste it here. If you or anyone has the shabad, then please paste it here. Pls be kind enough by telling what was wrong with the shabad, I am willing to correct myself regarding that.

I may sound rude or insulting to almost everyone here, but still I feel a strong urge to mention this here. Balbir ji, your talks sound very innocent, but they dont lead to any meaningful discussion, and lead to more and more confusion. Now see, how you had manipulated my sentence regarding brainwashing. I meant brainwashing by persons like you, sir... who create silly questions like 
Does God have hands, Does He have mother etc. I mean what is up with these questions?

I have seen your similar questions on sikhnet.com where the learned moderators there have simply locked your threads with warning. 

ok I am done with my venting... 

Sincerely, Arvind.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here it is Arvind 

In Dasam Granth   Page732 Line 5 

mY n gnySih ipRQm mnwaUN ] ikSn ibSn kbhUM nh iDAwaUN ]kwn suny pihcwn n iqn soN ] ilv lwgI morI pg ien soN ]434]
                   Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
_                   I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434._


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 16, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee!

Quote "You are the one (implying that for them (for the bhatts) your are the Krishna incarnate) to whom Mother Yashoda asks to eat the sweet rice."
Thanks for publishing the result of your research.

**************

Quote from Arvind Jee "Balbir ji, your talks sound very innocent, but they dont lead to any meaningful discussion, and lead to more and more confusion."
I know someone. He is a teacher and carries a stick with him. His mind has convinced him that his God is accompanying him. In my view, so is the case with many so-called religious people.
I feel your preachers are more confused than innocent listeners.

Quote "I meant brainwashing by persons like you, sir... who create silly questions like 
Does God have hands, Does He have mother etc. I mean what is up with these questions?"
May I ask your opinion about the reverend Gurus who sang so much about God's Hands and asked the Mother (Maa-ee) questions? Do some people know why their preachers never speak about Maa-ee the Gurus have often mentioned?

Quote "I have seen your similar questions on sikhnet.com where the learned moderators there have simply locked your threads with warning. "
He may be an old companion from last lives. In this life he is a business friend (Vanjaara Mitar). He wants to attract all types of customers for his business. His efforts are to spread a well-knotted net for fishing. Fakirs and Business people often go to the same school in childhood. I like him still.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 16, 2007)

Respected Baldir ji

It is easy to see why some think that we are making chutney here. Or even that you are winding people up.  Your reference to "mother" turned out to be a reference to Yashoda found almost at the end of the 1430 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib dev ji. That was the garam masala _en saute. _

So another ingredient -- Maaee. We are now up to the minced onions.  Maaee is actually used very frequently. In all fairness, no one is confused -- perplexed would be a better way to describe my own reaction to all of this.:hmm: As Arvind noted much earlier -- God is sabhungN -- so maaee would not logically point to a mother for Waheguru. 

If you are making a claim for a Hindu interpretation of Sikh scriptures, then why not just say so outright? All this mystery and detective work has some people thinking you are kidding around and they become vexed.

Ekmusafir ji, thanks for your insight into the bhatts, making it all the more clear that Yashoda is not depicted here as the mother of Waheguru. I have corrected my earlier comments accordingly with an editor's note.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 17, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Arvind Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful reference from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. As usual the translation provided is not correct. It is surprising that institutions have awarded more than thirty Ph.D. degrees on Dasam Granth and many are in progress. I feel alone the intellectual level of a translator or a preacher cannot understand the spirituality of the Guru's developed conscious mind.

In Dasam Granth Page732 Line 5 
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||.
The translation provided is this. I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.

 'Manaaoon' is not adoring. 'Manaoon' is persuading. And 'Liv laagimoripag in son' means, 'my consciousness is absorbed in ther feet'.
I do not know why the translator needed to translate the Guru's words 'in saoN' at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).
Can someone imagine how consciousness gets absorbed in them, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal whom ear listen but have no forms to recognize?
Please ponder. These Vaaks from Sri Gurdev are from His Hymn "Ath Devee Joo Kee Ustat KathnaN." However, the translator is trying to raise the impression that Gurdev is rejecting Ustat of Devee, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal.

I may start a new topic on this soon. This may turn out to be a great Satsang.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 17, 2007)

Balbir ji

As usual we are vectoring toward personal constructions of reality -- how could it be that there is one and only one person who has the one and only correct translation of a shabad under discussion -- and it is never the person whose translations are used more than any other. 

Let us see what Ekmusafir has to say. Not because he is infallible but because he has a knack for coming up with a way to show how a few word changes can place the entire translation of a phrase into the larger context of a verse in a very effective way.

Would you explain what you mean by this statement? Can someone imagine how consciousness gets absorbed in them, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal whom ear listen but have no forms to recognize? Somehow I did not understand from the shabad that Ganesha et al. were the ones who would hear or not hear, listen or not listen. Did you change things around? So how did you come up with your perspective on this? 

 And why would the shabad express anything other than a rejection of the Ustat devee as you put it of Ganesha and companions? This is why some of us think you are trying to erase history. Or just winding us up as Arvind ji so lucidly put it.

Sorry, but I am feeling very refreshed and am full of questions.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 17, 2007)

<< Also, no Sikh could convince me why they have imaginary paintings of their Gurus they treat as Gods.>>

balbir singh ji ( if this is your real name)


a clarification for you...
Sikhs do not consider the Gurus as God

<<Quote "i am sure that sikhs should start cutting their head and should walk on path of sikhis with 
head in their hands"
Please explain it. Which word from the referred Vaak is to understand 'cutting'?
>>>

brother

you certainly like playing with the words..

can you please show me how you can place your head on your palm and walk straight?

must be amazingly flexible head or Guru ji meant he wanted to see people with their palms on their head side..


and why did you side step the wordings from Bible?

i did not see any word mincing by St. Matthew about taking out the eyes.

------------

conclusion from my above post,

Balbir singh ji, these friends have been very generous to discuss with you, i am just exposing your word play.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 17, 2007)

have put the new translation with your interpretation....


ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||.


I do not persuade Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at their feet 434.


this translation doesnot make sense...does it?


Balbir singh ji

good that you are doing the nitpicking, but even replacing persuading for believing makes same sense to me.

Amd why would anyone not believe in any form and still have his/her consciouness at their feet...beats me...can you explain?


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## spnadmin (Aug 17, 2007)

amarsanghera ji

Thanks for going through this analysis and clearing out the cob-webs. 

Baldir ji asked: *Can someone imagine how consciousness gets absorbed in them, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal whom ear listen but have no forms to recognize?

*Originally we were thinking about Ganesha, Krishna and Vishnu -- now we have 4 avatars instead of the original 3. How did you do the arithmetic?

I was completely mystified by the part about the  "feet" but didn't say anything about it. *"my consciousness is absorbed at their feet*" How is consciousness absorbed at a foot or feet of Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal? Whose foot or feet? There are 4 names mentioned. Does this happen one avatar at a time, or all 4 at once? I can understand how they would not have forms, but not how they would not be *recognized.*  Waheguru is also formless, but Waheguru can be *recognized.* The key word is *recognize.* How do you figure out where to direct your consciousness if you can't *recognize *God?


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 17, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Quote "Sikhs do not consider the Gurus as God"
I hope they do not bow just in front of a piece of paper.

Quote "brother . . .you certainly like playing with the words . . .can you please show me how you can place your head on your palm and walk straight? . . .must be amazingly flexible head or Guru ji meant he wanted to see people with their palms on their head side . . .and why did you side step the wordings from Bible? . . .i did not see any word mincing by St. Matthew about taking out the eyes."

Brother and father are found in a church. Sorry, I do not have time to read the translated Bible to answer a Christian's question.

All who have realized the force and overflow of love in life have described the same. Their hands reach on the head with helplessness in the ego-less state.
The wonderful words from the humble Guru are "Sir dhar talee galee meree aao." On head keep the palm and come to my way.
The revered Guru Naanak Dev Jee never suggested anybody to cut his head. Nor any Guru ever cut His God gifted head.

Please remain with the topic.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 17, 2007)

*Baldir ji

I finally get it, and actually turned my computer back on, once it all fell together. Just like a detective story. It was the number of avatars changing from 3 to 4, and also the change in their names that gave you away.

Originally you opened a new direction in the thread by turning our attention to Ganesha, Krishna, Vishnu. Supreme Kal was in the picture; however you objected to the place of Supreme Kal in the translation-- who btw was the only recipient of devotion. *"My consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal." 

*Then the avatars changed to Ganesha, Kishan, Bishaan and Mahaakaal. So Supreme Kal had to take his place with the other 3. Very clever of you to introduce this distraction. 

You really don't like the idea that there should be a Supreme Kal  or anything like an Ik Ong Kar, Sat Naam, Kartar Purakh, Nirbhau, Nirvair, Akal Muraath-- do you? 

Introduce a new topic, and it will not be the sat sang you think it will be. All you had to do was start these discussions about God's hands and relatives in the Interfaith Discussions part of the forum. *


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 17, 2007)

Respected aad ji,

The following is my humble opinion.

Ganesh is called Siddhi Datta. The diety/god who is blessed with miraculous powers. 
He is this god of knowledge and the remover of obstacles and is the older son of Lord Shiva. Lord Ganesha is also called Vinayak ( knowledgeable ) or Vighneshwer (god to remove obstacles). He is worshipped, or at least remembered, in the beginning of any auspicious performance for blessings and auspiciousness. He represents tremendous wisdom, intellegence, and presence of mind.

Adore = Worship = To worship God or a spirit
Manaaoon = to persuade someone, to adore someone (to worship), to honour someone ( like we honour our elders in weddings – “Manottiaan”), to recognise someone, to acknowledge someone.
Pagg = Feet, Path, Direction 


Guru ji is indeed rejecting the authority of Sri Ganesh to be his first protocall.


I will not adore/recognise/acknowledge Ganesh as the first protocall.  Krishna and Vishnu, I will never mediatate on them. I have only heard of them, but I am not acquainted with them. This is how my consciousness is absorbed on this path. (i.e. this is the personal opinion of Guru ji).434.

If we take the meaning of Pagg as feet then it will indeed look/sound like Guru ji is again bowing to them. But it is. Balbir ji has a predetermined path and it looks like that slowly he is trying to lure people into his way of thinking. He is the type of “Fakir” as he wants us to accept that are gradually diluting the true message.

In the second verse Guru ji say

The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector. O Supreme Loh, I am Thy slave. Protect me, as Thy own. Do me the honour of holding my arm.435.

This is what Guru ji believes in.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Arvind (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks aad0002 and amarsanghera ji for posting the shabad, and for correction. Much appreciated! 

Regards.


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## spnadmin (Aug 17, 2007)

Ekmusafir, Arvind, Begum ji, respected forum members,

So we can see how things have been completely distorted. It just took a day or two to find which pieces and how they fit together. To show what he was up to. A Game of Clue. Thanks to all the detectives on the squad for helping this simple-minded one solve the riddle before her very eyes -- actually realize  for herself that we were working on a riddle.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 17, 2007)

<<Quote "Sikhs do not consider the Gurus as God"
I hope they do not bow just in front of a piece of paper.>>

so true

we bow before the Guru and not God

God is onmipotent and its within ourselves that we "bow" ourselves or subject ourselves to God's will


Quote<<Quote "brother . . .you certainly like playing with the words . . .can you please show me how you can place your head on your palm and walk straight? . . .must be amazingly flexible head or Guru ji meant he wanted to see people with their palms on their head side . . .and why did you side step the wordings from Bible? . . .i did not see any word mincing by St. Matthew about taking out the eyes."

Brother and father are found in a church. Sorry, I do not have time to read the translated Bible to answer a Christian's question.>>

it was not a "translated" christian question, it was a statement...

btw the line is written in English.

it was my mistake to call you Brother....

and what makes you think that word Brother is not used in SGGS ?



<<All who have realized the force and overflow of love in life have described the same. Their hands reach on the head with helplessness in the ego-less state.
The wonderful words from the humble Guru are "Sir dhar talee galee meree aao." On head keep the palm and come to my way.
The revered Guru Naanak Dev Jee never suggested anybody to cut his head. Nor any Guru ever cut His God gifted head.>>>

thanks for sggesting that words in SGGS cannot be taken literally. you just defeated your own logic

have a good night


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 17, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Quote "so true  . . . we bow before the Guru and not God"
Please watch. Some ignorant bow in front of their Guru while their Guru is bowing before God.

Balbir Singh


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## International Akaali (Aug 17, 2007)

Balbir Singh,

I have just read this whole thread where the topic has changed from mother to something else.... What is your mission here on this forum? It seems as though you something else to say but you aren't comming out with it. Jus my thoughts on the topic.... Now dont twist what i wrote right now into something smart you always seem to pull out or something that makes no sense. 


You make comments which make the whole thread and forum go in circles and then jus do whatever mission you have been on. I dont know what that mission is? Frankly i dont have a clue of where your stance is or whether or not you are a sikh or not. OH WAIT!!!!! NOW DONT ASK ME WHAT A SIKH IS? or please i beg of you dont ask me anything you will jus make me go crazy with all the diffrent thoughts you have.

If you know anything about the reason for bowing to shri guru granth sahib ji (which you will ask me to clarify) and then twist those words around make a another one of your "chutney" topics so id rather just leave you alone and let your mind jus decompose jus thinking about all these chutney topics in your head until you loose your mind  

* Chutney and Balbir singh go hand in hand


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## Dimitri (Aug 17, 2007)

who was the mother of Waheguru's mother.


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## Astroboy (Aug 18, 2007)

Radhasoami, Beas Secret History, radhasoami, shabd

Radha Soami and Balbir Singh ?  Cannot be.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 18, 2007)

balbir singh ji

i assume from your name that ur a punjabi or maybe know abt punjabi culture...

we bow to a person who is "superior " to use...by age or maturity or whatever...like our grand dad....

so we bow to Guru as they are superior to us...

if someone comes to gurudwara and doesnot bow to SGGS, i would not feel offended...its their personal choice..

the real "bow" is to the will of God.

some ignorant fools donot assimilate the sentences before replying


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 18, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and International Akaali Jee!

A topic becomes chutney when some participants put their ingredients to feel their presence.
Those who have a topic should place it separately.

**************

Quote from Dimitri Jee "who was the mother of Waheguru's mother."
According to the Sabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee on Page 1402 it seems that the mother of 'Waahiguroo' is Jasod. Gayand Jee is the evidence. He describes the scene watching mother Jasod saying HIM to eat curd and rice.
Those who like to correct Gayand Jee may do so.

**************

Quote from Begum Jee "Radha Soami and Balbir Singh ? Cannot be."
Some are perhaps looking for a step father? Sorry, infidelity may be available somewhere else.
I am happy and enjoying the ecstasy of conjugal Bliss with the blessings of Lord.

Quote from Amarsanghera Jee "the real 'bow' is to the will of God."
Those who do not have split personality know this Godly truth.

Quote "some ignorant fools donot assimilate the sentences before replying"
Please do not take my responses personally. I am thankful to your impulses. Those have given truth a chance to explore and openly display it. The world will remember your efforts always.


Balbir Singh


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## Astroboy (Aug 18, 2007)

Balbir Singh jee,

I hope you do not have a problem with my curiosity. I have three questions for you:
1. What exactly do you mean when you say, "infidelity may be available somewhere else" ?

2. May I ask further, what is your view of having a dehdhari Guru to lead the sikh panth ? 

3. In your personal opinion, do you think that naam is a mantra given by a dehdhari Guru to his students ?

Just curious. 

For the rest of the sikh sangat,

Read this:
Steven Alan Hassan’s Freedom of Mind Center, helping people get out of cult groups, destructive organizations, and mind control.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 18, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Begum Jee!

Your curiosity and valuable questions are genuine. Please raise those in a separate topic for the benefit of all.


Balbir Singh


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## International Akaali (Aug 18, 2007)

edited


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## Astroboy (Aug 18, 2007)

Gora Sikh


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2007)

Begum ji

Your generosity in providing some Internet links is the best approach at this point in the thread. Every time something completely ludicrous is mentioned your links will at least provide some external, objective correction that is factual. To counter a run-away imagination.

The thread has one outstanding benefit -- I am forced to read extra bani each day just to figure out what on earth has happened since last I checked. An expanded NitNam. Maybe others are also thinking that they are reading more and thinking more -- perhaps wondering more too.

Anyway, good question Dmitri - Who was Waheguru's gran?


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2007)

*"According to the Sabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee on Page 1402 it seems that the mother of 'Waahiguroo' is Jasod. Gayand Jee is the evidence. He describes the scene watching mother Jasod saying HIM to eat curd and rice.
 Those who like to correct Gayand Jee may do so*."

This is page 1402. Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Balbir, could we please have the *correct* page number?

OR are we back to Yashoda again, only with a different spelling.? I don't see anything about a Jasod. And I do not see anything about intimate relations between Jasod or Yashoda with anyone on this page.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 18, 2007)

Balbir Singh, you are really wrong. You are taking literal one line translations and trying to bring Sikhs into Hindu fold. It isn't going to work. Bhatts are referring to Guru Ramdas I think. Can someone please verify if above Shabad is part of Swaayeaye Mahalay Chauthay Kay.

Other point is that Brahma Bissan Kabhoo Na Dheaaou isn't even Gurbani. It is praise of mahakal aka kal. I will post more on that later. There are many tukhs in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which expose Krishan. Krishan was a rapist according to Gurbani. Tukh is as follows:

Joar Shullee Chandrawal Bindrabun Meh Rung Keeya.
By force, Chandrawal was brought to Bindrabun and was enjoyed by Krishan.

Having sex by force is rape. Guru Sahib would never accept krishan as God.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 18, 2007)

Also krishan was a human and a human can never be God.


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## Dimitri (Aug 19, 2007)

Who is Gayand jee?


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 19, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Quote from Khalsa Fauj Jee "You are taking literal one line translations and trying to bring Sikhs into Hindu fold."
Please take any line from Gayand Jee. It is the praise of Vishnu incarnations.

Quote "It isn't going to work."
God's Wisdom works the same according to HIS WILL in all. Rarely someone is aware of it. It is surely not Hindu nor it is Ghaggee.

Quote "Bhatts are referring to Guru Ramdas I think."
Experience is where one transcends thinking.

Quote "Other point is that Brahma Bissan Kabhoo Na Dheaaou isn't even Gurbani. It is praise of mahakal aka kal."
Even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee the Gurus sing about them.

Quote "There are many tukhs in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which expose Krishan. Krishan was a rapist according to Gurbani."
Perhaps Maya has raped some people's mind.

Quote "Joar Shullee Chandrawal Bindrabun Meh Rung Keeya.
By force, Chandrawal was brought to Bindrabun and was enjoyed by Krishan.
Having sex by force is rape. Guru Sahib would never accept krishan as God."
Please learn to quote Gurbani correctly, and do not write its translations if not understood in reality.

Quote "Also krishan was a human and a human can never be God."
God is together. Is any molecule in your body not you?


Balbir Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 19, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Quote "Joar Shullee Chandrawal Bindrabun Meh Rung Keeya.
> By force, Chandrawal was brought to Bindrabun and was enjoyed by Krishan.
> Having sex by force is rape. Guru Sahib would never accept krishan as God."
> Please learn to quote Gurbani correctly, and do not write its translations if not understood in reality.Quote "Also krishan was a human and a human can never be God." God is together. Is any molecule in your body not you?
> Balbir Singh


 
Balbir Ji can you interpret above pankti correctly for my knowledge.
Regards Sahni Mohinder


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## drkhalsa (Aug 19, 2007)

> Quote "Joar Shullee Chandrawal Bindrabun Meh Rung Keeya.
> By force, Chandrawal was brought to Bindrabun and was enjoyed by Krishan.
> Having sex by force is rape. Guru Sahib would never accept krishan as God."
> Please learn to quote Gurbani correctly, and do not write its translations if not understood in reality.



Balbir Singh Ji


CAn you give the alternative translation It will be helpful to me and others 


Thabks 

Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 19, 2007)

<<Quote "There are many tukhs in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which expose Krishan. Krishan was a rapist according to Gurbani."
Perhaps Maya has raped some people's mind.>>

the fakir's mind sees other people throwing stones at him, while he goes around desecrating the neighbour's courtyard.


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## spnadmin (Aug 19, 2007)

Amarsanghera ji,  you said it correctly.*

the fakir's mind sees other people throwing stones at him, while he goes around desecrating the neighbour's courtyard.*Yes, this is exactly what is going on!

Dmitri ji, Gayand Jee is probably Gian Jio - This is another thing that Balbir does in all his commentaries -- He changes spellings of words and names used earlier to cause momentary confusion and frustration. Just like Jasod is Yashoda -- two different spellings. It is a technique.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 19, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> 
> Quote from Dimitri Jee "who was the mother of Waheguru's mother."
> According to the Sabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee on Page 1402 it seems that the mother of 'Waahiguroo' is Jasod. Gayand Jee is the evidence. He describes the scene watching mother Jasod saying HIM to eat curd and rice.
> ...


 
The following composition is by the Bhatts. In the following they have in ecstasy expressed their love for the Guru.

kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ]_kaval nain madhhur bain kott sain sang sobh kehath maa jasodh jisehi dhehee bhaath khaahi jeeo ||_

_Your lotus-eyes, sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. You are __the one __(implying that for them (for the bhatts) your are the Krishna incarnate) to whom Mother Yashoda asks to eat the sweet rice_.

I see you people non the wiser to keep following in this mans trap. The correct translation of the verse had been provided yet again and again you want to hear from him. It seems as if he has a psychological hold on you.

But then again maybe you people are enjoying his divine grace. :}{}{}:

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Aug 19, 2007)

> But then again maybe you people are enjoying his divine grace.




May be who knows


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## drkhalsa (Aug 19, 2007)

As I can understand the Whole point of puting this post by Balbir Singh ji is 

To challenge the traditional use of Word WAHEGURU in General by Sikhs to denote the universal being /God .May be he is not comfortable with people who go to the extent of disliking other name of GOD like RAM  which infact have been extensively used by All the contributors of Guru Granth Sahib in conrast to Word WAHEGURU which has been hradly used 

According to me this is the main target of all this activityand I find it interesting 

I know some people fing such behaviour of mine foolish but I think they can forgive for that 

Jatinder Singh


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 19, 2007)

Gurmat doesn't accept Vishnu. He is exposed at many places in Gurbani too. Will talk about this later. Got others things to take care of first. You can say anything you want but only a fool will accept that Guru Sahib praises krishan (son of devki or whomever). Vishnu was no better than krishan. No wonder krishan was called his avtar. Both were busy screwing people for their own selfish desires.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 20, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Quote from Sahni Mohinder Jee "Balbir Ji can you interpret above pankti correctly for my knowledge."
Quote from Jatinder Jee "Balbir Singh Ji CAn you give the alternative translation It will be helpful to me and others."

The original Vaak from Guru Naanak Dev Jee is this.
ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
जुज महि जोरि छली चंद्रावलि कान्ह क्रिसनु जादमु भइआ ॥
"juj meh jor chhalee chandraaval kaanH krisan jaadam bha-i-aa."

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ 
पारजातु गोपी लै आइआ बिंद्राबन महि रंगु कीआ ॥
"paarjaatu gopee lai aa-i-aa bindraaban meh rang kee-aa." SGGS Ang 470-6

This is the clue to understand these Vaaks spiritually. 'Gopee' is every Jeev's existence in the world. The word 'Go' means the world. 'Gopee' is one who receives his diet of the world (Sansaar) and the world also drinks him out. 'Bindraaban' is the sacred, natural and silent place (Ban) within for the soul (Brinda). 'Rang Kee-aa' means matched the colors or enjoyed. 'Paarjaatu' is the true NAM. Gurbani says "paarjaatu ihu hari ko naam."  ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਇਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ॥SGGS 265-5

Jeev fetched NAM. In Brindaaban matched colors (of NAM and Soul).

Let this be a present to all the Readers of this Forum. Rest another time.


Balbir Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 20, 2007)

Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Quote from Sahni Mohinder Jee "Balbir Ji can you interpret above pankti correctly for my knowledge."
> ...


 
The interpretation is very confusing for me and I am very sure It is for others too. I will attempt to put all the words together and let us see what it all means:

True NAM world diet drinks him out brought soul to silent place matched the colors (enjoyed). 

Jeev fetched NAM. In Brindaaban matched colors (of NAM and Soul).

Jeev fetched True Naam diet drink, that soul takes it to a silent place in Brindaaban and enjoys (matching colors of NAM and SOUL).

Balbir ji would you be kind enough to acknowledge correctness of the sequence above. There appears to be a very deep spiritual message here. I have tried to make some sense out of it. I am not sure whether I have been able to do justice here. My efforts appear to lead the translation towards a soft drink advertisement but hang on there is a secret message, there is a diet drink mixing plant with new flavour NAM and SOUL in Brindaaban.

I feel defeated here. Balbir ji would you kindly enlighten us all with a sequential translation of the above coding.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## drkhalsa (Aug 20, 2007)

> Joar Shullee Chandrawal Bindrabun Meh Rung Keeya.
> By force, Chandrawal was brought to Bindrabun and was enjoyed by Krishan.
> 
> Having sex by force is rape. Guru Sahib would never accept krishan as God



YOur this post very clearly shows your insensitivity towrad others 

Krishan - In whom you dont believe but it could be Diety to some other may be Hindu 

Calling Krishan Such names seems ridiculous 

One of the major Anti Dasam Granth Argument you and many other put is that 

1) It is ASHLEEL / Indecent , So what do you say about your translation of above verse , IS descrpition of rape not indecent , does that rule of your dont apply here 

2) Anything Indecent that you find in Dasam Granth you claim that writer is advising and promoting such activities . So in this case is that also true that writer is promoting the same as you  have interpreted


My request to you that show some decency when wroting about somebody who could be diety to somebody and is held in High postion 

Although such people might not be as evolved spirtually as you but still they deserve this much till they reach higher level like you 


Thanks 
Jatinder Singh


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## drkhalsa (Aug 20, 2007)

Balbir ji would you be kind enough to acknowledge correctness of the 


> sequence above. There appears to be a very deep spiritual message here. I have tried to make some sense out of it. I am not sure whether I have been able to do justice here. My efforts appear to lead the translation towards a soft drink advertisement but hang on there is a secret message, there is a diet drink mixing plant with new flavour NAM and SOUL in Brindaaban.





Well what I understood is

Gopee is Jeev Atma 
Paarjatu is NAM 
Brindaban is silent place
Rang Kiya is enjoyment 

So all togetheris 

Jeev aatma Got  the Nam and enjoyed it in Silent place 


It wasnt difficult for me but stiil Balbir singh hasnt given his interpretaion to sentence prior to it  that is 

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
जुज महि जोरि छली चंद्रावलि कान्ह क्रिसनु जादमु भइआ ॥
"juj meh jor chhalee chandraaval kaanH krisan jaadam bha-i-aa."


who is chandraavall  here ?
what is Jaadam?

wel I dont know the answer obviously 



Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 20, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Jatinder Jee!

Anyone can rob a Saint. Saints are always ready for it. Dacoits rarely find them. Thieves mostly feel fine with a small bounty.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Aug 20, 2007)

> Anyone can rob a Saint. Saints are always ready for it. Dacoits rarely find them. Thieves mostly feel fine with a small bounty.



Dear Balbir Singh Ji

Is this explanation to the verse above??

Does chandraval denotes saint in verse??

But then ehats Kahan Krishan relevance in it ??


Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 20, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Jatinder Jee!

The moon represents mind. A moon (Chandra) is not only changing constantly. That is why it is a liar and cannot hide its character specially at nights in presence of Krishna (Black) color. 'Vali' means wrinkles. Chandra-Vali means the moon with wrinkles.
Mind cheats normally all and does not allow to see and meet God. In Juj (Yajur Ved) and Dwaapar Yuga mind is seduced or cheated forcefully through ears (KaanH) by listening NAAM.
Aadam is human being since Breath (Dam) is coming in. Jaadam is where Dam (Breath) is merging. Krishna is the unknown (Black Color) Force of the Sustainer. He gives it back to Aadam when HE wants him to sustain.

Yajur Veda describes all about Dwaapar Yuga.  The way people get NAM during this time, the birth of Krishna and HIS becoming Jaadam, the seduction of mind through ears forcefully etc.

I wish all living in Dwaapar Yuga God's blessing.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 20, 2007)

Although it may look as if various individuals are falling into Balbir's trap, that is not really what is happening. Some of us are trying to get him to be straight with the forum and give  up all the trickery. Balbir's techniques are not that effective actually. Let me give you an example. There is a web site that lists all the words used in SGGS. You can tell from the site which words are used least often. By picking one of those words and starting a thread it is possible to "wind people up" (To quote Arvind ji), stand back and watch the dialog unfold without losing the upper-hand in the discussion. This thread is almost a study in how to engage in propaganda and disinformation. And assuming some unwitting soul should tune in to this, it is important to have a trail of responses that contradict him. I am amazed at Balbir's staying power and am wondering if someone is paying him to do this?


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## drkhalsa (Aug 20, 2007)

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
जुज महि जोरि छली चंद्रावलि कान्ह क्रिसनु जादमु भइआ ॥
"juj meh jor chhalee chandraaval kaanH krisan jaadam bha-i-aa."

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ 
पारजातु गोपी लै आइआ बिंद्राबन महि रंगु कीआ ॥
"paarjaatu gopee lai aa-i-aa bindraaban meh rang kee-aa." SGGS Ang 470-6

In Time of Yajur Ved ( i.e Dwapar Yug ) Everchanging Mind is forcefully Seduced by Naam given through ears by Sustainer Krishna 
The Jeev Atma ( Soul ) gets the NAM and enjoy the bliss in Silence


This is what I understood !

And Its makes lot of sense , for the first time I could see these verses in positive sense  although  I have heard then probably many times before as Part Asaa Di Vaar ( morning Prayer )


Balbir Singh ji Thanks for your effort !



Jatinder Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 20, 2007)

This is account that took place the Duaapar Yug by Sri Krishna as follow: (One is free to make spiritual deductions out of it if one so desires but without the help of the "Paarjatt" tree) .

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ] 

juj mih        = In Yujar Ved – referring to Duaapar Yuga
joir            = by force
ClI            = tricked 
cMdRwvil        =(cousin sister of Radha, and wife of Govardhan)
kwn@ ik®snu      =dark complexioned Krishna - referring to Sri Krishna specifically
jwdmu BieAw ] =born into Jadav Tribe (The Clan to which Sri Krishna belonged to)

In Duaapar Yuga Kaan Krishan of Yadav tribe tricked and forcefully seduced Chandravali.

Considerably detail has been given to pin point the perpetrator Sri Krishna, to ensure that this disgraceful act by him is not pointed onto someone else by the likes of *Faqir Balbir Singh*.  

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]
pwrjwqu         = a tree from the garden of Inder Dev that fulfills desires
gopI            =Satyabhamma - one of krishnas’ lovers 
lY AwieAw      =brought it for her
ibMdRwbn mih    =in Bindraban
rMgu kIAw ]     =revelled, celebrations, enjoyment.

Who stole a “Paarjatt” tree for his Gopi  and revelled In Bindraban.

Sri Krishna steals the miraculous tree and uses it to fulfil his desire with a married woman.  

It appears that Balbir is trying to play a similar trick in this Forum. Little does he realise that this is the period of Kal-Yug and Not Duaapar. 

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Dimitri (Aug 20, 2007)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> This is account that took place the Duaapar Yug by Sri Krishna as follow: (One is free to make spiritual deductions out of it if one so desires but without the help of the "Paarjatt" tree) .
> 
> juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]
> 
> ...


 

thanks for the clarification.
Krishna has also been described as sex slave/addict.


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## spnadmin (Aug 20, 2007)

Ekmusafir ji and Drkhalsa ji

Guys, Great work! Especially the part about Ram and the part about the new brand of diet soft-drink. You are thinking outside of the box. 

We now have a translation that makes sense.

Did anyone notice that we have shifted away from page 1402 and are on a different page altogether? Well it doesn't matter.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 27, 2007)

Gurfateh



Das would like to say regarding mother of Akal.


Har Ji Mata Har Ji Pitah.Akal is mother of all universe and does not has any slef mother or father.

But in for of offspring can enjoy love of parentas ie in child when child enjoys love of mother it is Akal who enjoys.And vide mother Akal only loves.


coming to Krishna and Yajur Vedas.


1st thing as per logic of Bhag Singh Ambala Krishna Avtar in Dasham Granth is bogus as in Bhagwat Puran Krishna is not told to be taking wine or going with court dancing girls.



Das has a question over here with the same logic.There is no Krishna in Yajur Veda.Rather if we read Gurbani we find time of Krishna differnt with Yajur Veda.Das can give qoutes if needed.

Das is not defending Krishna but attacking logic of Ambala Ji.

Das would like to question the time link of Athrav Veda Islam.It is Amabla who has been attacking falsehood of time in Tenth Master verses.


As there has been time gap with  Islam and atharva Veda and how could the Vedas be True ?(Sachiar).

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 
मः १ ॥ 
Mehlā 1. 
First Mehl: 


ਸਾਮ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਤੰਬਰੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਆਛੈ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹੇ ॥ 
साम कहै सेत्मबरु सुआमी सच महि आछै साचि रहे ॥ 
Sām kahai sėṯambar su&shy;āmī sacẖ meh ācẖẖai sācẖ rahė. 
The Sama Veda says that the Lord Master is robed in white; in the Age of Truth, everyone desired Truth, abided in Truth, 

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥ 
सभु को सचि समावै ॥ 
Sabẖ ko sacẖ samāvai. 
and was merged in the Truth. 

ਰਿਗੁ ਕਹੈ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ 
रिगु कहै रहिआ भरपूरि ॥ 
Rig kahai rahi&shy;ā bẖarpūr. 
The Rig Veda says that God is permeating and pervading everywhere; 

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਵਾ ਮਹਿ ਸੂਰੁ ॥ 
राम नामु देवा महि सूरु ॥ 
Rām nām ḏėvā meh sūr. 
among the deities, the Lord's Name is the most exalted. 

ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਪਰਾਛਤ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 
नाइ लइऐ पराछत जाहि ॥ 
Nā&shy;ė la&shy;i&shy;ai parācẖẖaṯ jāhi. 
Chanting the Name, sins depart; 

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਉ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ 
नानक तउ मोखंतरु पाहि ॥ 
Nānak ṯa&shy;o mokẖanṯar pāhi. 
O Nanak, then, one obtains salvation. 

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
जुज महि जोरि छली चंद्रावलि कान्ह क्रिसनु जादमु भइआ ॥ 
Juj meh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥ krisan jāḏam bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā. 
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force. 

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ 
पारजातु गोपी लै आइआ बिंद्राबन महि रंगु कीआ ॥ 
Pārjāṯ gopī lai ā&shy;i&shy;ā binḏrāban meh rang kī&shy;ā. 
He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban. 

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
कलि महि बेदु अथरबणु हूआ नाउ खुदाई अलहु भइआ ॥ 
Kal meh bėḏ atharbaṇ hū&shy;ā nā&shy;o kẖuḏā&shy;ī alhu bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā. 
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God. 

ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਲੇ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰੇ ਤੁਰਕ ਪਠਾਣੀ ਅਮਲੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ 
नील बसत्र ले कपड़े पहिरे तुरक पठाणी अमलु कीआ ॥ 
Nīl basṯar lė kapṛė pahirė ṯurak paṯẖāṇī amal kī&shy;ā. 
Men began to wear blue robes and garments; Turks and Pat'haans assumed power. 

ਚਾਰੇ ਵੇਦ ਹੋਏ ਸਚਿਆਰ ॥ 
चारे वेद होए सचिआर ॥ 
Cẖārė vėḏ ho&shy;ė sacẖiār. 
The four Vedas each claim to be true. 

ਪੜਹਿ ਗੁਣਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥ 
पड़हि गुणहि तिन्ह चार वीचार ॥ 
Paṛeh guṇeh ṯinĥ cẖār vīcẖār. 
Reading and studying them, four doctrines are found. 

ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥ 
भाउ भगति करि नीचु सदाए ॥ 
Bẖā&shy;o bẖagaṯ kar nīcẖ saḏā&shy;ė. 
With loving devotional worship, abiding in humility, 

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ 
तउ नानक मोखंतरु पाए ॥२॥ 
Ŧa&shy;o Nānak mokẖanṯar pā&shy;ė. ||2|| 
O Nanak, salvation is attained. ||2|| 

So over here we have been told to modify Vedas or to attach the Three qualities of Vedas with other four true of mythalogical things.


As we see Jor(i) could also means attach
ਪੰਨਾ 484, ਸਤਰ 12http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=484&hindi=t&id=21912
ਪਾਈ ਜੋਰਿ ਬਾਤ ਇਕ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਹ ਤਾਂਤੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਾਂ ॥
पाई जोरि बात इक कीनी तह तांती मनु मानां ॥
Pā&shy;ī jor bāṯ ik kīnī ṯah ṯāŉṯī man mānāŉ.
Placing my feet together, I have accomplished one thing - my mind is pleased with that Weaver.
*भगत कबीर जी*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]ਪੰਨਾ 500, ਸਤਰ 3http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=500&hindi=t&id=22459
ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਰਬ ਕੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਬਿਨਉ ਕਰਉ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ॥
दइआल पुरख सरब के ठाकुर बिनउ करउ कर जोरि ॥
Ḏa&shy;i&shy;āl purakẖ sarab kė ṯẖākur bin&shy;o kara&shy;o kar jor.
O Merciful Lord, O Lord and Master of all, with my palms pressed together I pray to You.
*गुरू अरजन देव जी*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]ਪੰਨਾ 563, ਸਤਰ 18http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=563&hindi=t&id=24895
ਬਿਨਉ ਕਰੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ॥੪॥੭॥
बिनउ करै नानकु कर जोरि ॥४॥७॥
Bin&shy;o karai Nānak kar jor. ||4||7||
Nanak offers this prayer with his palms pressed together. ||4||7||
*गुरू अरजन देव जी*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]ਪੰਨਾ 654, ਸਤਰ 12http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=654&hindi=t&id=28420
ਜਿਉ ਮਧੁ ਮਾਖੀ ਤਿਉ ਸਠੋਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਜੋਰਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਕੀਆ ॥
जिउ मधु माखी तिउ सठोरि रसु जोरि जोरि धनु कीआ ॥
Ji&shy;o maḏẖ mākẖī ṯi&shy;o saṯẖor ras jor jor ḏẖan kī&shy;ā.
Like the bee which collects honey, the fool eagerly gathers and collects wealth.
*भगत कबीर जी*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]ਪੰਨਾ 659, ਸਤਰ 1http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=659&hindi=t&id=28641
ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥
तुम सिउ जोरि अवर संगि तोरी ॥३॥
Ŧum si&shy;o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3||
I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. ||3||
*भगत रविदास जी*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]ਪੰਨਾ 701, ਸਤਰ 16http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=701&hindi=t&id=30293
ਕੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਦੇਵੈ ਜੋਰਿ ॥
कोई जनु हरि सिउ देवै जोरि ॥
Ko&shy;ī jan har si&shy;o ḏėvai jor.
If only someone would unite me with the Lord!
*गुरू अरजन देव जी*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
and Chandravan also means as per Mahan Kosh.

2) ਚੰਦ੍ਰਵੰਸ਼ ਦੀ ਲੜੀ. ਚੰਦ੍ਰਕੁਲ ਦੀ ਪੀੜ੍ਹੀ. [SIZE=-1]
Sri Granth: Punjabi Dictionary & Encyclopedia[/SIZE]

so it may means to attach with Yajur Veda Chhali(Cruckide) moom dynasty Krishan....

Like with Pap adding ee we have Papee we may have Chhalee adding ee to chhal.


Krishna is more like keat or insect like das himslef in front of Akal Mahakal.


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## Astroboy (Nov 27, 2007)

Vijaydeep,
Thank you for putting in so much effort. I was looking for the exact verse from 
Asa Di Vaar.


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