# Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux



## Tejwant Singh (May 29, 2009)

1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values? 

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

How can one ex-communicate Gobind? 



Inder singh said:


> Kala afghhana is an excommunicated person from sikh panth. People are on record praising him here. I hope we censor those posts also and do not resort to selective censorship.



Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.

Something to ponder about.

Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir sahib. 

As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith,they  themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of SGGS.

Let us never forget that SGGS is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on its teachings.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> .What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?
> 
> 2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
> 
> ...



DELETED

Stick to the Topic and Answer the Questions.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> The above statement does not make any sense. Inder Singh ji needs to be taught what life of Miri- Piri means. It involves both Temporal and Spiritual. What does personal conduct mean? Is he a bigamist like the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat at Patna Sahib who admittedly has 2 wives. Is that personal conduct ok with Inder Singh ji?



PLEASE POST LINKS TO VERIFY CLAIMS








> What negtative things did he write about Sikh scriptures. Repeating and yelling at the top of one's voice can not make things true. Inder Singh should read what Gyani Jarnail Singh wrote in one of his posts. I know he likes to tell people and told Randip to gain some knowledge. How about gaining knowledge for the self so, so much hatred is not spewed around? I can only see hatred coming out rather than some Gurmat Vichaar


Raed this. If you need more i can

 helphttp://www.sikhsentinel.com/sikhsentinel0306/oped_thegreatdeception.htm


*The Great Deception
Randhir Singh* [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]June          22, 2003: CT[/FONT]​ _"To acknowledge the amrit of the          iron bowl and the double-edged sword, as means to become the Guru's Sikh,          is a grave mistake"
_Gurbax Singh (aka Kala Afghana), Bipran Ki Reet          (Volume 6 - page 35)​ "The requirement of Amrit Sanchar (a baptism-like          ceremony involving an iron-bowl and with a double-edged sword) to become          a true Sikh has discouraged the youth from becoming and staying Sikhs,          and thus has encouraged them to become apostate and renegade [1],"          writes Gurbax Singh.

        It is also his contention that "from the beginning of the fifteenth          century to 1850, unshorn hair was the only outward identity of the followers          of Nanak. The word 'sehjdhari' is responsible for bringing laxity among          the faithfull and it was coined in those days when, along with Sri Guru          Granth Sahib, idols of gods and goddesses were also kept in the Gurudwaras          by Udassis and Nirmala mahants, by no means friends of Sikhs. Those were          the days when 'Gurpratap Suraj' was written and its authors distorted          the outlines of Amrit Sanchar." Gurbax Singh views it as "a          great folly to recognize Amrit Sanchar as the criterion to be known as          Guru's Sikh." [2]
He continues to write that the "adoption of the five          kakkars, as proof of Nanak's Sikhi, is the prerogative of the entire panth.          It is not acceptable that the Gurus limited this right to five Singhs.          This was stipulated by the unworthy leaders who violated the uniqueness          of the Panth and controlled its religious teachings and places of worship          for 200 years." [3]
On the Rehat Maryada he writes, "The present day          Rehat Maryada is not entirely based on Gurbani… Those engaged in          drafting it were overwhelmed by clever and far-sighted brahmins who conspired          to perpetually influence the Sikh Panth by their brahminical thinking.          After all, the Rehat Maryada was written by those Sikhs in 1849, who after          losing the empire, did not care to know why they had lost their uniqueness          which had once taken them to great heights. What is the use of having          the Rehat Maryada when on the death of a well-known person - a powerful          jathedar, or a so-called intellectual or a prominent political leader          - we rush to Kiratpur Sahib to immerse their remains and observe the fourth,          thirteenth, seventeenth day according true to brahminical traditions."          [4]
Gurbax Singh also writes in no uncertain words that "the          Rehat Maryada, as it exists, offends Gurbani" and thinks it should          be discarded and a stop put to formal Amrit Sanchar. [2]

        Gurbax Singh is widely known for his knowledge and lucid exposition of          Sikh scriptures through words of mouth and print. He refers extensively          to the Guru Granth Sahib and, on a subject of his choosing, profusely          quotes selective hymns of the Gurus. It has to be said to his credit that          he is not miserly in praising and eulogizing the Sikh faith and Gurbani.          Surely he pays glowing tributes which gladden every Sikh heart. His portrayal          of an ideal Sikh is a perfect picture of virtue and every Sikh is bound          to feel proud of it. It is no surprise that he has been successful in          attracting a sizeable number of admirers and followers. 
He is right on the dot in striking a sympathetic chord          among his readers when, for the pitiable position Sikhs find themselves          in, squarely blames the leadership. No wrong is committed in criticizing          the self-seeking leaders who, bereft of religion and oblivious of selfless          service to the community, have betrayed it repeatedly for their immediate          material gains, be it money, power or position. It is also true that because          of selfish and opportunistic leaders certain distortions have come into          Sikh institutions that need immediate and serious attention.
Where does the friction arise?
Gurbax Singh offends by his outright and wholesale condemnation          of the established, recognized institutions. He castigates them as a product          of the brahmanical mind, having no sanction and authority of Gurbani.          He vehemently pleads to abolish them. By doing so, he does not sound sincere          and betrays his sinister motives, however elaborate the camouflage may          be, however hard he may try to hide behind the screen of Gurbani. 
The examples from his writings cited earlier hardly leave          any room for doubt that he is bent on maligning and discrediting Sikh          institutions and traditions, and to eroding respect and faith in them.          Already gross materialism is weaning the youth away from religion and          such insidious and subtle propaganda is nothing short of adding insult          to injury. 
Mesmerized by his familiarity of Gurbani, the casual reader          may not readily grasp the intent and subtlety in his writings. A serious          and critical reader, however, will notice what lies between the lines.          Falsehood left uncontested, if repeated over and over again, over time,          begins to look like the truth.
Before Guru Gobind Singh crystallized the social idea          of God, Bhai Gurdas, the first theologian of the Sikhs in the days of          the fiifth Guru, wrote: "one Sikh is an individual, two make up a          community and five constitute God." Guru Gobind Singh crystallized          the same concept with the Panj Payaras (five faithful ones) by ceremoniously          administering amrit to the Panj Payars and then taking amrit from them          himself. The Tenth Guru, therefore, put his own seal on the revolutionary          concept of socialized God. Sangat (the Sikh congregation) is held in special          esteem and reverence by all Sikhs. Where there is Sangat there is God.          This is the belief. How does Sangat act as a group? It does so through          the Panj Payaras as its representatives.
Gurbax Singh disputes the historical evidence of the Panj          Payaras. He believes that the concept was first adopted in the mid nineteenth          century as a result of infiltration of brahmanism. Why should he create          such confusion? What are his motives? A little reflection reveals the          web.
As a first move the aim, is to get all those who believe          in Gurbani and keep outward symbols, but do not undergo Amrit Sanchar,          recognized as Sikhs. Once this is achieved the next logical step would          be to press for recognition as Sikhs all those who believe in Gurbani          but may not keep outward physical symbols. In his writings, Gurbax Singh          has often stated: "What use are physical symbols if the mind does          not accept these?" With this the transformation would be complete.          All Hindus paying even lip service to Gurbani would then, as a matter          of right, be classified as Sikhs and become eligible to stake claim in          Sikh affairs. From another angle, all Sikhs would be Hindus. The game          plan is subtle. The word 'sejahdhari' which, according to Gurbax Singh,          was given currency by those opposed to Sikhs, and which irritates him          most, would become irrelevant. What a master stroke.
It would be appropriate to touch upon another matter closely          connected to maryada which is Anand Karaj. According to Gurbax Singh,          the Gurus intended the marriage ceremony to be brief, simple and solemn.          He rightly laments that in actual practice this solemn occasion of bonding          two families has degenerated into vulgar display of wealth and position.          Unfortunate and painful as it is, Sikhs by and large do not enter into          matrimonial alliance with a Sikh outside their caste, regardless of his          or her merit. The search is limited to the respective castes. Equally          deplorable is the fact that the Sikh community continues to follow the          same elaborate and expensive customs and rites before and after the marriage          as practiced by Hindus.
What then is the point of contention? 
Gurbax Singh wastes no words to discredit the maryada          of the whole ceremony of Anand Karaj, including the four lavans, and dubs          it as misuse of Gurbani amounting to disrespect. [5] His stock thesis          and argument is that "codification of the Rehat Maryada, the outcome          of brahmanic mind, is the root cause of the whole problem." The sooner          the Sikhs defy, reject and disassociate from the Rehat Maryada and Anand          Karaj, the better it would be. 
Why have such utterances gone unnoticed and unquestioned          for so long? Quite simple - he won complete confidence and respect of          the community by impressing it with the depth of his knowledge of Gurbani          and Sikh scriptures. Having established his credentials, he began firing          salvos by selectively criticizing Sikh institutions and eminent personalities.          
The community, after the events of the eighties and nineties,          was feeling very hurt and humiliated. Gurbux Singh shrewdly made full          use of the prevailing mood of discontent and disillusionment and projected          himself as a messiah of the community. Encouraged by his success with          his readers he started systematically striking blow after blow on the          structure of the faith to pull it down brick by brick. Once he swayed          the minds of his unsuspecting readers (ironically including some respectable          persons) it was easy for him to incite them to defy, to revolt and to          overthrow. Soon the band of dedicated followers took over, raised ominous          voices, amplified by media, insisting instant restructuring.
It is in the interest of the he Sikh nation that Gurbax          Singh discloses who his influences are. He has to answer vital and pertinent          questions raised by his destructive preaching against the Rehat Maryada,          Amrit Sanchar and Anand Karaj. 
He incites Sikhs to disown their institutions and maryada          which have become infected - according to him beyond redemption - by brahmanism.          What will happen if tomorrow he himself says that Guru Granth Sahib contains          many references to brahmin gods and goddesses and their mythologies and          were later interpolated by individuals with brahmanic mind and thinking.          What solution would he suggest? Discard Guru Granth Sahib or change it?          How *******ed and dangerous his whole approach is!
Gurbax Singh has all along been complaining that the Akal          Takht has not been responding to his letters. He has been given an opportunity          to talk face to face. Why is he not appearing before the Akal Takht? What          is he afraid of? 
In his writings, Gurbax Singh has been denouncing Jarnail          Singh, yet he now claims to be a close associate of his. And on this account,          he is afraid of arrest by the Indian government and pleads inability to          enter India. What a complete shift and blatant falsehood.
He extols Sikhs to be courageous and ever ready to die          for their ideals. What about his Sikhi? Sheer possibility of arrest -          which may or may not even happen - has frightened him to climb down from          the ideal.
This may not be the real reason. He may be afraid that          his falsehood will be exposed or he may not be able to stand the scrutiny          by Sikh theologians who are equally well versed in Gurbani.
Gurbani is intended to be the spiritual essence of divine          and eternal Truths which have universal appeal and application without          the fetters of time, space or race. It is meant to guide mankind through          the evolution of its relationship with God, the Ultimate Truth.
On the other hand, there is an equally important need          to have a sanctified code of conduct that guides us in living our everyday          lives. This document should strengthen and illustrate the practicality          of the eternal Truths revealed in Gurbani rather than blur those. It is          this composition that is called the Rehat Maryada. 
It was left to the genius of Tenth Guru to wield the followers          of the Sikh faith into a strong, distinct and vibrant people. Amrit was          designed to achieve this. To doubt this historical fact would amount to          doubting Guru Gobind Singh himself. Although he may not say so in so many          words, the accusing finger of Gurbax Singh is pointing indirectly toward          the Tenth Guru, for it was he who conceptualized the Khalsa and the importance          of Rehat Maryada. The Guru was emphatic in saying: "Rehat payari          mujh ko, Sikh payara nahin."
It is Gurbax Singh's style to first shower superlatives          and then in one blow shatter the splendid edifice he just built - reducing          in a moment a positive account into a negative one.
Because of ineptness and mismanagement certain distortions          have arisen in Sikh institutions and traditions. Lest other hostile and          inimical forces take advantage of lack luster Sikh affairs, these controversial          issues need to be addressed pragmatically, boldly and urgently. The youth          are disenchanted, the tendency toward apostasy is increasing and Sikh          youth are cutting their hair and taking to drugs. The tide has to be turned.
In the Gurus' times spiritualism was the first priority          and temporal concerns occupied the secondary position. What has happened          now is that religion has been given a back seat and politics has become          dominant. Serving the community is no longer the driving force. The greed          for money, power and position has corrupted and blinded us. No wonder          fights for controlling Gurdwaras and institutions is a common occurrence.
This is the opportune time for Sikh intellectuals and          theologians of proven integrity and moral strength to get together and          deliberate on all the controversial issues agitating the Sikh mind. This          has to be done objectively, totally free of passions and party considerations,          by consensus. Power seekers, politicians and their supporters should be          kept at a distance.
In the ultimate analysis, it is the character of the individual          members of the community that will determine the real and lasting strength          of the faith. The need of the times is hard introspection by each and          all to reform oneself and become a true Sikh dedicated to serve the community,          not to control and influence it. Sikhism is a practical religion; let          all Sikhs practice and live it in their daily lives.

[1] Page 35, Vol. 6, Bipran Ki Reet
        [2] Page 33-35, ibid
        [3] Page 33, ibid
        [4] Page 31, ibid
        [5] Page 38-39, ibid

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The          writer is a lawyer by training and has served as a consultant to World          Health Organization. He is now retired and spending most of his time conducting          research and study of Sikh affairs.[/FONT]​ 
.Kala afghana is excommunicated from sikh panth. His chelas can follow him if they cann't digest this.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Inder Singh writes in his previous post:



> If kala afghana writes on kissa of heer ranjha( A punjabi folk lore) his personal conduct will not come in picture.


My response:

"The above statement does not make any sense. Inder Singh ji needs to be taught what life of Miri- Piri means. It involves both Temporal and Spiritual. What does personal conduct mean? Is he a bigamist like the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat at Patna Sahib who admittedly has 2 wives. Is that personal conduct ok with Inder Singh ji?"

His response to my above post:



> Kala afghana was a convicted thief in India caught stealing engines while posted as police sub inspector at jandial Guru. He was made to jump bail and whicked away to Canada.
> 
> In canada he was convicted in a case of morla turpitude. That is the reason moral conduct is very important in sikhism


I have no idea where there is a connection between the two. Inder Singh had also accused some other Sikh of being a driver as a bad thing in Sikhi.​ 



> Since he chose to write negatively about *Sikh** scriptures*,ethos and history it is natural that his conduct will come in picture for review.


My question to him regarding the above post was:

"What negative things did he write about *Sikh** scriptures*?"

His response:


> _"To acknowledge the Amrit of the iron bowl and the double-edged sword, as means to become the Guru's Sikh, is a grave mistake"_
> Gurbax Singh (aka Kala Afghana), Bipran Ki Reet (Volume 6 - page 35)​"The requirement of Amrit Sanchar (a baptism-like ceremony involving an iron-bowl and with a double-edged sword) to become a true Sikh has discouraged the youth from becoming and staying Sikhs, and thus has encouraged them to become apostate and renegade [1]," writes Gurbax Singh.


Inder Singh ji, Please give me the panna number from SGGS.

When one does not have points to discuss in a civilsed manner, one starts making up things. It is like throwing something to the wall and hoping that it sticks. Tsk. Tsk.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

Since the events in Finland occurred, in which Ardaas was changed, a renewed interest in the influence of Kala Afghana has surfaced for some members engaged in debate. 

Since Kala Afghana is not central to the discussion about the changes in Ardaas in the Finnish sangat, a new thread has been created for purposes of continuing that part of the discussion.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

Tejwant wrote



_"_​



> Inder Singh ji, Please give me the panna number from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> When one does not have points to discuss in a civilsed manner, one starts making up things. It is like throwing something to the wall and hoping that it sticks. Tsk. Tsk.


The cat is out of the bag now.
PERSONAL COMMENT DELETED who says that he is amritdhari and then says there is no amrit sanchar mentioned in SGGS ji.

PERSONAL COMMENT DELETED


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

The inner searcher of forums is wondering how to emphasize strongly that debating issues is the route that leads to the best discussion.* Please do not, for perhaps the 10th time now and two forum moderators warnings, debate personalities and attribute motivations that are pure speculation on your part*. A discussion turns into a rumble during a soccer match otherwise. Thanks aad0002


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> :
> 
> The cat is out of the bag now. This shows you have the mindset as your new found Guru kala afghana.
> This also shows that you do not acknowledge Amrit sanchar for a sikh. Here you are a proven hypocrit who says that he is amritdhari and then says there is no amrit sanchar mentioned in SGGS ji.
> ...


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you are talking about. You claimed in your post that KA "Since he chose to write negatively about [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh/"]*Sikh*[/URL]* scriptures". *When I asked you about that you gave me something from Amrit Sanchar. 

You seem confused and your above personal insults show more about yourself than about others. I am not offended by that. And you said you were an Amritdhari. Right? So, is it ok for an Amritdhari Sikh who believes in caste system lance personal insults when he has no points to discuss?

No, I am not thinking aloud. Just asking you a question. I have noticed that you have failed to respond to many of my questions. When you can not respond in a logical and Gurmat manner, you start being abusive.

You write:



> The cat is out of the bag now. *This shows you have the mindset as your new found Guru kala afghana.*


 
Inder Singh ji,

One can only deduce 2 things from your above post. Either you can not read or you have lost it. If you had read my posts I have always emphasised just one fact that only SGGS is our GURU. It is a shame that you who claims to be Amritdhari Sikh has to stoop to this low level to ignore the teachings of SGGS.

I am still waiting for the Panna number from SGGS about your claim otherwise it is obvious that you do not like to be truthful.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> No, I am not thinking aloud. Just asking you a question. I have noticed that you have failed to respond to many of my questions. When you can not respond in a logical and Gurmat manner, you start being abusive



You are asking me the page no of SGGS ji where it written that one should take Amrit. Answer yes or no?.


Inder Singh ji,



> One can only deduce 2 things from your above post. Either you can not read or you have lost it. If you had read my posts I have always emphasised just one fact that only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our GURU. It is a shame that you who claims to be Amritdhari Sikh has to stoop to this low level to ignore the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



Nobody ever denied that. 



> I am still waiting for the Panna number from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about your claim otherwise it is obvious that you do not like to be truthful



Are you asking me the page no where it is written to be amritdhari?.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

> The inner searcher of forums is wondering how to emphasize strongly that debating issues is the route that leads to the best discussion.* Please do not, for perhaps the 10th time now and two forum moderators warnings, debate personalities and attribute motivations that are pure speculation on your part*. A discussion turns into a rumble during a soccer match otherwise. Thanks aad0002



Once we talk about a heretic, his personality will come in the picture. You cann't isolate the two. That is what i wrote earlier. sikhism is not a western type religion.


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## spnadmin (May 30, 2009)

Whose personality are you talking about? I am talking about your insults of VaheguruSeekr ji :welcome:Who is the heretic? This is where you have to watch your step with your answer as per Gurmat. If I could speak to your soul i would do it.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Take a deep breath and read all my posts again. You do not seem to comprehend what you write first and then get more confused when asked questions about it. Take your time and then respond. I had no idea that some people who call themselves Amritdharis yet believe in caste system would have so much venom stored in them against those who disagree with them. 

Taking Khandei di Phaul has taken many towards Sehaj as well which is a blessed thing indeed, thanks to Ik Ong Kaar.

So, read all my posts and respond to all the questions I have asked you that you have ignored so we can have a fruitful interaction in the name of Sikhi.

Personal insults demean people who use them especially the ones who call themselves Amritdharis. In fact it demeans the whole Khalsa panth because the Gurmat basket of Amritdharis can not afford to have any bad apples and bad apples are those who use personal insults rather than interacting in a sehaj manner.

Isn't that the ultimate goal of a Sikh especially the one who has taken khandei di pahul?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

Aad0002

Plaese see the meaning of heretic. I have not used it out of context.


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## Inder singh (May 30, 2009)

Tejwant ji

You accept khandey di pahul is essential to for us to become a sikh. That is good to know.

Let us leave to individuals for reaching their goal of realization. We are no one to judge others.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> You accept khandey di pahul is essential to for us to become a sikh. That is good to know.
> 
> Let us leave to individuals for reaching their goal of realization. We are no one to judge others.


 

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said.

Now, let's hope you adhere to your own words as an Amritdhari and stop with personal insults and judging others which you have done freely so far.

I am eagerly waiting for the answers to my questions that you have refused to respond to. A Sikh, especially the Amritdhari should not shun from the honest responses. Guru Gobind Singh never shunned from anything like that and we have the duty to emulate our 10th Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (May 30, 2009)

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS BEFORE MOVING ON:

*1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values? 

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?*


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## Tejwant Singh (May 30, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Once we talk about a heretic, his personality will come in the picture. You cann't isolate the two. That is what i wrote earlier. sikhism is not a western type religion.


 

Inder Singh Ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please elaborate your above statement by quoting Gurbani from SGGS? You talk in riddles at times which are tough to decipher.

I beg to disagree with your latter statement. Sikhism is NOT a religion but a way of life. Religions, Western or Eastern are based on dogmas where as Guru Nanak founded Sikhism based on pragamatism. So please explain when what you mean by *"sikhism is not a western type religion".*

And also next time use *CAPITAL 'S' for Sikhism*. We can not degrade Sikhi by not using the right language.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your silence is deafening to say the least. A Sikh never gets silent when asked questions about Gurmat. I have repeatedly asked you to respond to the questions. I can not understand your reluctance.So please respond to the following from the Gurmat viewpoint:

*1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values? 

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?* 

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

> 1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?



Excommunication is rooted in sikh tradition and history.Read about excommunication of Ram rai,
Dhirmalias by Guru sahibs.



> 2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?



Guru granth sahib asks for appropriate punishment for a Gurnindak. 


*http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/25205-kala-afghana-discussion-redux.html

*


> *3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?*



One has to take Gurmantra to become a sikh. A Sikh has to be initiated.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for finally responding but as usual your responses  do not make any sense.

Let's try to decipher them a bit.

Your write:



> Excommunication is rooted in sikh tradition and history.Read about excommunication of Ram rai, Dhirmalias by Guru sahibs.



Please share the above in details with us. When one asks the questions, give references with details not just vague responses.



> Guru granth sahib asks for appropriate punishment for a Gurnindak


. 

Once again a vague response. Give details from SGGS to prove your point.



> One has to take Gurmantra to become a sikh. A Sikh has to be initiated.



Once again the above response makes no sense. Initiated by whom? So you mean a new born baby in a Gursikh household in NOT a Sikh? Please explain. What is he or she then?

Please be specific in your responses.

Tejwant Singh


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## dalsingh (May 31, 2009)

You know Inder, If anyone needs to be excommunicated today it should be Mr Badal himself.

I don't know much about the opinions of Kala Afghana myself, but I do know that the Akal Takat has become a joke in the hands of the current "custodians" of the panth. So excommuncation is very likely to be politically motivated and not panthic these days. 

The other thing I'd like to add regards the so-called 'Dasam Granth Controversy'. People have been debating the authenticity of the Dasam Granth a long time before any of us reading this were born. The truth is that the Singh Sabha Movement (the original one of Bhai Vir Singh's time) was largely responsible for a skeptical reception to the granth. As far I'm aware, no one was ever 'ex communicated' in previous debates of the Dasam Granth, so why has it suddenly become such a hot potatoe???

Could it be that certain controversial writers are now publicised and highlighted so that we are kept busy arguing over them and not the leeching corrupt leaders that sit on thrones juicing the quom for all it 's worth? 

What do you think?


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## Randip Singh (May 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



I concur we need more detailed responses since this topic deals with a serious issue.

I for one think excommunication is a serious thing and seems to have become a bit of a play thing for the SGPC.


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## Inder singh (May 31, 2009)

Dal singh ji

I agree with you about Badal.





> The other thing I'd like to add regards the so-called 'Dasam Granth Controversy'. People have been debating the authenticity of the Dasam Granth a long time before any of us reading this were born. The truth is that the Singh Sabha Movement (the original one of Bhai Vir Singh's time) was largely responsible for a skeptical reception to the granth. As far I'm aware, no one was ever 'ex communicated' in previous debates of the Dasam Granth, so why has it suddenly become such a hot potatoe???



Please provide a reference in support of your statement.There was never doubt about authenticity of Dasam Granth. Only Teja singh Bhasaur raised the issue and he was excommunicated. Bhag singh ambala was the next one and he was also excommunicated/


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2009)

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh,

Still waiting for the responses for my questions.

Interaction and learning about Gurmat values can only occur if you respond.

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 2, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*



Inder singh said:


> To know something about this anti sikh cult please see the video
> 
> Sikh Clips




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.......

Nice clips...really a wonderful clip...I think these missionaries seems to be dumb and fool...like me...who wanted to argue without reason...how can they say " HOW CAN YOU SAY EK IS ALL" so funny...I think that guy thinks that he himself is not one. either he himself is half..double ..  So funny......
  Guru Ji rightly said "Moorkhe naal na lujiye Kar gallan eho bujiye" ...today I understood the meaning exactly....Guru Ji is great..........

People like these have spoiled Guru's Sikhi.. These fools are going to suffer....lets see when they will...........

Thanks for link 

Chardi Kala.....


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## Inder singh (Jun 2, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

COMMENT REMOVED


http://www.sikhclips.com/view_video.php?vi...507cacd8e2f2aef


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 2, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa ...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh... Tejwant Singh Ji..

Reading your reply regarding Khalsa's Baana..I remembered one great katha by Gyani Amreek Singh Ji- Chandigarh Waale...on  Khalsa Akal Purakh Ki Fauj..in detail explained what is this baana..why Khalsa.........

```
http://www.zshare.net/audio/60731321d8a4a60c/
```

zSHARE - VAISAKHI KATHA 2009 - 2.mp3

Chardi Kala.......


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## Inder singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

This video is not hate video. it exposes the slanders in real light as they have no knowledge of Gurmat.They are found floundering at every step.


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## Inder singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*



> some "Sikhs" will even go to the extent of misuse Waheguru Gurmantar



Kala afghana does not agree that waheguru is Gurmantra for sikhs. Good to note that some of his disciples do agree that waheguru is Gurmantra.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Tejwant Singh ji,What i wrote didn't mean to hatred but to avoid the arguments without reason. i have earlier said that some people (you know) may agree the ultimate decision but aree compelled from their habits to not to accept by hearts, Guru Nanak Dev Ji has sais in "Asa di War" that 'Apradhi doona nivey Ridey kasudey jaye' means the offender shall bow many times in agreeing but by heart he will always opt to choose the other way.'
 Thia is exactly the close associates of Kala Afgana , You and some other persons doing the same. When all the proves quoted, Photo copies provided about Dasam Granth, still you people asking the authentication. When Dasam Granth was compied in 1698, Guru Gobind Singh ji was alive and he has sighned on many Patras of it. Later on , The Baani of Dasam Granth or Chota Granth was taken care of by Bhai Mani Singh ji, whose hand written letter is enclosed even then you keep on uttering like parrot.
 You people are offenders of Sikh Panth. 'Sab Gobind Hai.' true means is that Waheguru ji omnipresent. He is in thieves, and killers also but when a person commits a crime, Waheguru ji at once stops him but in selfishness when he insists to offend, Waheguru distances himself from the offender. In that case all the liability of the offence is solely of the offender, Waheguru or Gobind is not there.
So i can dare to say Waheguru ji is not with you people, search your hearts and find Waheguru ji if he is there. You people argue of changes in Ardas and favor it but do you know the power of Ardas? If it had been known to you, i am sure you would have bowed before it, not insisted to prove the wrong into right.
Gur fateh and Waheguru sumat bakhshe.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*



Inder singh said:


> This video is not hate video. it exposes the slanders in real light as they have no knowledge of Gurmat.They are found floundering at every step.



Sant hari Singh Randhawawllah refused to debate with Jeonwallah and Prof darshan Singh.
He called Jeonwallah as "BELOW MY STANDARD"...and as to debating with  Prof darshan Singh....he replied... dsm granth discussion is banned by Akal takhat...

Guru nanak Ji says..kicch sunneah kichh kaheah nanak... ASKING questions is not banned in Gurmatt. Claiming to have the ONE and ONLY answer is anti-gurmatt.

Rozana Spokesman Online........


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*



Inder singh said:


> Kala afghana does not agree that waheguru is Gurmantra for sikhs. Good to note that some of his disciples do agree that waheguru is Gurmantra.




Its equally good to note that EK Oangkaar is making decisions through some posters..as to who is what and what he believes in....When EK oangkaar delegate his authority  to find out who is whose follower/disciple ??

I Believe that WAHEGURU is GURMANTAR...but dont beleive that by SHOUTING "Waheguru wahegur loudly and continously" to DISRUPT a Gurdwara DIWAN where SGGS is PRESENT and Sangt is SEATED and then Stand up and RIOT is using the Gurmantar the right way.
Also parrotting never did any one any good...GURBANI is a TOOL given to us to USE so as to CHANGE our Lives for the better...

Anyway all this got nothing to do with Ardass Changed...its descending in to name calling..the Internet equvalent of   Chupp Karr jaa...GHSUNN Maruun te dand torr duun..when all logic is lost...( shut up or i will break all your teeth..when logical discussion fails  is last resort of  many...)


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Giani ji, you are persuading Sant Hari Singh ji Randhawa walleh to join the discussion so that you may compel him to speak something in favor or against. If Akal Takhat has banned to discuss on Dasam Granth, we should distance ourself, Our motto on this forum is to discuss the change in Ardas. Some discussion has already taken place regarding Dasam Granth, that also in ignorance if it has been banned by Akal Takhat. It may not not be a supreme authority for you and some of your friends but it for us. So please don't go to insist upon banned topics. Sikhnet should also see into this.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

*Dear All,*
​*Sabd Guru on Rahat**/Rahit**(**ਰਹਤ** /**ਰਹਿਤ* *)*​​The two words Rahat ਰਹਤ and Rahit ਰਹਿਤ have different meanings and have to be understood as such. 

The word *Rahat* ਰਹਤ is derived from Rahi, which in turn is derived from Raha/Rahana, meaning reside, dwell, exist, continue, or remain, custom, habit, manner, mathod as written in Mahan Kosh and Gurmukhi word dictionary of AGGS by Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli. 

The words *Rahat/**ਰਹਤ* (*way of life or desciplin)* and *Rahit/**ਰਹਿਤ** (*without or excep) are incorporated in AGGS  in the following hymns of Guru Nanak (Ragas Bilawal and Parbhati) and Guru Arjan in (Ragas Bhairo and Sarang

ਸਾਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਾਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਈ ॥​Full Sabd​ 
*ਨਿਕਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਦੇਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੋਈ **॥* *ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ **॥* ਵਿਣੁ ਭੈ ਪਇਐ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਐਸਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਵਸਿ ਰਸਿ ਰਸਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਕਥੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਕਰੇ ਦੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਕਥਿ ਕਹਣੈ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਸ ਰਾਤੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਸਾਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਾਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਕਥਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਰੁ ਰਹਤ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥* ਨਾਵਹੁ* *ਭੂ*ਲੇ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੰਧਿਓ ਸਰ ਜਾਲਿ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬਿਆਪਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਿਖੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਜੋ ਆਂਜੈ ਸੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਕਾਲਿ ॥ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸੀਧੋ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿ ॥੪॥ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੫॥ ਰੈਣਿ ਅੰਧਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਤਿ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਝੂਠੇ ਕੁਚਲ ਕਛੋਤਿ ॥ ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਰੋਤਿ ॥ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਵੇਖੈ ਜੋਤਿ ॥੬॥ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਮੰ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਰਾਮੰ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਦੂਖ ਸਹਾਮੰ ॥ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੂਟੇ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਾਮੰ ॥੭॥ ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਚੀ ਪਤਿ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਕਿਸੁ ਵੇਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੂਜਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਿ ਕਹਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥੮॥੧॥
_Nikat vasai __ḏek__ẖai sab__ẖ so▫ī__. Gurmuk__ẖ virlā būj__ẖai ko▫ī__. vi__ṇ b__ẖai pa▫i▫ai b__ẖaga__ṯ na ho▫ī__. Saba__ḏ ra__ṯe sa__ḏā suk__ẖ ho▫ī__. ||1|| Aisā gi▫ān pa__ḏārath nām__. Gurmuk__ẖ pāvas ras ras mān__. ||1|| rahā▫o. Gi▫ān gi▫ān kathai sab__ẖ ko▫ī__. Kath kath bā__ḏ kare __ḏuk__ẖ ho▫ī__. Kath kah__ṇai __ṯe rahai na ko▫ī__. Bin ras rā__ṯe muka__ṯ na ho▫ī__. ||2|| Gi▫ān __ḏẖi▫ān sab__ẖ gur __ṯe ho▫ī__._ _Saachee Rahat Saachaa Man Soyee,__ Manmukh Kathnee Hai Par Rahat Na Hoyee, __Naavoh Bhoolay Thaou Na Koyee__.__ Man mā▫i▫ā ban__ḏẖi▫o sar jāl__. G__ẖat g__ẖat bi▫āp rahi▫o bik__ẖ nāl__. Jo āŉjai so __ḏīsai kāl__. Kāraj sī__ḏẖo ri__ḏai samĥāl__. ||4|| So gi▫ānī jin saba__ḏ liv lā▫ī__. Manmuk__ẖ ha▫umai pa__ṯ gavā▫ī__. Āpe kar__ṯai b__ẖaga__ṯ karā▫ī__. Gurmuk__ẖ āpe __ḏe vadi▫ā▫ī__. ||5|| Rai__ṇ an__ḏẖārī nirmal jo__ṯ__. Nām binā j__ẖū__ṯẖe kuc__ẖal kac__ẖẖo__ṯ__. Be__ḏ pukārai b__ẖaga__ṯ saro__ṯ__. Su__ṇ su__ṇ mānai vek__ẖai jo__ṯ__. ||6|| Sās__ṯar simri__ṯ nām __ḏari__ṛ▫ām__. Gurmuk__ẖ sāŉ__ṯ ū__ṯam karāmaŉ__. Manmuk__ẖ jonī __ḏūk__ẖ sahāmaŉ__. Ban__ḏẖan __ṯūte ik nām vasāmaŉ__. ||7|| Manne nām sac__ẖī pa__ṯ pūjā.__ Kis vek__ẖā nāhī ko __ḏūjā__.__ Ḏek__ẖ kaha▫o b__ẖāvai__ man so▫e. Nānak kahai avar nahī ko▫e. ||8||1||_

Akal Purkh dwells close at hand, and sees all,but how rare is the Guru willed who understands this. Without the Fear of God, there is no devotional worship. Imbued with the Word of the Sabd, eternal peace is attained. ||1|| Such is the spiritual wisdom, the treasure of the Naam; obtaining it, the Guru willed enjoy the subtle essence of this nectar. ||1||Pause|| Everyone talks about spiritual wisdom and spiritual knowledge.Talking, talking, they argue, and suffer. No one can stop talking and discussing it. Without being imbued with the subtle essence, there is no liberation. ||2|| Spiritual wisdom and meditation all come from the Guru. The True way of life comes through Truth embedded in the mind. The self-willed talks about it, but does not practice it. Forgetting the Name, one does not find any solace or peace. Maya has caught the mind in the trap of the whirlpool. Each and every heart is trapped by this bait of poison and sin. See that whoever has come, is subject to death. Your affairs shall be adjusted, if you contemplate the Akal Purkh in your heart. ||4|| He alone is a spiritual teacher, who lovingly focuses his consciousness on the Word of the Sabd.The self-willed, egotistical self willed loses his honor.The Creator Itself inspires us to Its devotional worship. God blesses the Gurmukh with glorious greatness. ||5|| The life-night is dark, while the Divine Light is immaculate. Those who lack the Naam, are false, filthy and untouchable. The Vedas preach sermons of devotional worship. Listening, hearing and believing, one beholds the Divine Light. ||6|| The Shaastras and Simritees implant the Naam within. The Guru willed lives in peace and tranquility, doing deeds of sublime purity. The self-willed suffers the pains of reincarnation. Enshrining the Name of the One Akal Purkh bonds are broken. ||7|| Believing in the Naam, one obtains true honor and adoration. Who should I see? There is none other than the Akal Purkh. I see, and I say, that Akal Purkh alone is pleasing to my mind. Says Nanak, there is no other at all. ||8||1||                                                                                                                                                  
  -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page. 831-12 

*ਸਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਚਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ **॥**੭**॥*​Full Sabd​​ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਜਗੁ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਲੋਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਰਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਐਸਾ ਜਾਪੁ ਜਪਉ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ॥ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਾਚ ਸਬਦਿ ਤੁਝ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਈ ਭਗਤ ਜਿਨ ਸਚਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ ਆਨਦ ਰੂਪ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੀ ॥੩॥ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਜਲਾਏ ॥ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ॥੪॥ ਬਿਸਮ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਰਹੇ ਪਰਮਾਦੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਆ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਆਗੀ ॥ ਸੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਹੋਵੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥੫॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗੈ ਸਚਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਸੇਵੇ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ॥ ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਜਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ *ਸਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਚਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ **॥**੭**॥* ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਸੂਝਸਿ ਬੀਜੀ ਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਆਗੈ ਰਾਖਿਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਚਾਖਿਆ ॥੮॥੨॥
_M__ā▫__i__▫ā__ mohi sagal jag c__ẖẖ__ā▫__i__▫ā__. K__ā__ma__ṇ_ _ḏ__ek__ẖ__ k__ā__m lob__ẖ__ā▫__i__▫ā__. Su__ṯ__ kanc__ẖ__an si__▫__o he__ṯ__ va__ḏẖ__ā▫__i__▫ā__. Sab__ẖ__ kic__ẖẖ__ apn__ā__ ik r__ā__m par__ā▫__i__▫ā__. ||1|| Ais__ā__ j__ā__p japa__▫__o japm__ā__l__ī__.__ Ḏ__uk__ẖ__ suk__ẖ__ parhar b__ẖ__aga__ṯ__ nir__ā__l__ī__. ||1|| rah__ā▫__o. Gu__ṇ__ ni__ḏẖ__ā__n __ṯ__er__ā__ an__ṯ__ na p__ā▫__i__▫ā__. S__ā__c__ẖ__ saba__ḏ_ _ṯ__uj__ẖ__ m__ā__hi sam__ā▫__i__▫ā__.__ Ā__v__ā__ ga__▫__o__ṇ_ _ṯ__u__ḏẖ_ _ā__p rac__ẖ__ā▫__i__▫ā__. Se__▫ī__ b__ẖ__aga__ṯ__ jin sac__ẖ__ c__ẖ__i__ṯ__ l__ā▫__i__▫ā__. ||2|| Gi__▫ā__n __ḏẖ__i__▫ā__n narhar nirb__ā__ṇ__ī__. Bin sa__ṯ__gur b__ẖ__ete ko__▫__e na j__ā__ṇ__ī__. Sagal sarovar jo__ṯ__ sam__ā__ṇ__ī__.__ Ā__na__ḏ__ r__ū__p vitahu kurb__ā__ṇ__ī__. ||3|| B__ẖ__ā▫__o b__ẖ__aga__ṯ__ gurma__ṯ__ī__ p__ā▫__e. Ha__▫__umai vic__ẖ__ahu saba__ḏ__ jal__ā▫__e.__ Ḏẖ__ā__va__ṯ__ r__ā__k__ẖ__ai __ṯẖ__ā__k rah__ā▫__e. Sac__ẖ__ā__ n__ā__m man vas__ā▫__e. ||4|| Bisam bino__ḏ__ rahe parm__ā__ḏ__ī__. Gurma__ṯ__ m__ā__ni__▫ā__ ek liv l__ā__g__ī__.__ Ḏ__ek__ẖ__ niv__ā__ri__▫ā__ jal m__ė__h __ā__g__ī__. So b__ū__j__ẖ__ai hovai vadb__ẖ__ā__g__ī__. ||5|| Sa__ṯ__gur seve b__ẖ__aram c__ẖ__uk__ā▫__e. An__▫__ḏ__in j__ā__gai sac__ẖ__ liv l__ā▫__e.__ Ė__ko j__ā__ṇ__ai avar na ko__▫__e. Suk__ẖ__▫__ḏ__ā__ṯ__a seve nirmal ho__▫__e. ||6|| Sev__ā__ sura__ṯ__ saba__ḏ__ v__ī__c__ẖ__ā__r. Jap __ṯ__ap sanjam ha__▫__umai m__ā__r. J__ī__van muka__ṯ__ j__ā__ saba__ḏ__ su__ṇ__ā▫__e. Sac__ẖ__ī__ raha__ṯ__ sac__ẖ__ā__ suk__ẖ__ p__ā▫__e. ||7|| Suk__ẖ__▫__ḏ__ā__ṯ__a __ḏ__uk__ẖ__ meta__ṇ__h__ā__r__ā__. Avar na s__ū__j__ẖ__as b__ī__j__ī__ k__ā__r__ā__.__ Ŧ__an man __ḏẖ__an har __ā__gai r__ā__k__ẖ__i__▫ā__. N__ā__nak kahai mah__ā__ ras c__ẖ__ā__k__ẖ__i__▫ā__. ||8||2||_


Emotional attachment to Maya is spread out all over the world. Seeing a beautiful woman, the man is overcome with sexual desire. His love for his children and gold steadily increases. He sees everything as his own, but he does not own the One God. ||1||
I meditate as I chant on such a mala, that I rise above pleasure and pain; I attain the most wondrous devotional worship of the Akal Purkh. ||1||Pause|| O Treasure of Virtue, Your limits cannot be found. Through the True Word of the Sabd, I am absorbed into You. You Yourself created the comings and goings of reincarnation. They alone are devotees, who focus their consciousness on You. ||2|| Spiritual wisdom and meditation on the God of Nirvaanaa- without meeting the True Guru, no one knows this. Akal Purkh's Light fills the sacred pools of all beings. I am a sacrifice to the Embodiment of Bliss. ||3|| Through the Guru's Teachings, one achieves loving devotional worship. The Sabd burns away egotism from within.The wandering mind is restrained and held in its place.The True Name is enshrined in the mind. ||4|| The exciting and intoxicating worldly plays come to an end, for those who accept the Guru's Teachings, and become lovingly attuned to the One Akal Purkh. Seeing this, the fire in the water is extinguished. They alone realize this, who are blessed by great good fortune. ||5|| Serving the True Guru, doubt is dispelled. Those who are lovingly attuned to the True God remain awake and aware night and day. They know the One Creator, and no other. Serving the Giver of peace, they become immaculate. ||6|| Selfless service and intuitive awareness come by reflecting upon the Word of the Sabd. Chanting, intensive meditation and austere self-discipline come by subduing the ego. One becomes Jivan-mukta - liberated while yet alive, by listening to the Sabd. Living a truthful way of life, one finds true peace. ||7|| The Giver of peace is the Eradicator of pain. I cannot conceive of serving any other. I place my body, mind and wealth in offering before God. Says Nanak, I have tasted the supreme, sublime Essence of the Lord. ||8||2||              -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhatee, AGGS, Page, 1343-4 & 5

ਰੋਗ *ਰਹਿਤ* ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ॥
Full Sabd​ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਕਉ ਦੀਨਾ ॥ ਕਾਮ ਰੋਗਿ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਬਸਿ ਲੀਨਾ ॥ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਰੋਗਿ ਪਚਿ ਮੁਏ ਪਤੰਗਾ ॥ ਨਾਦ ਰੋਗਿ ਖਪਿ ਗਏ ਕੁਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸੋ ਰੋਗੀ ॥ ਰੋਗ ਰਹਿਤ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰੋਗਿ ਮੀਨੁ ਗ੍ਰਸਿਆਨੋ ॥ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰੋਗਿ ਮੀਨੁ ਗ੍ਰਸਿਆਨੋ ॥ ਬਾਸਨ ਰੋਗਿ ਭਵਰੁ ਬਿਨਸਾਨੋ ॥ ਹੇਤ ਰੋਗ ਕਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਰੋਗ ਮਹਿ ਬਧੇ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ ਰੋਗੇ ਮਰਤਾ ਰੋਗੇ ਜਨਮੈ ॥ ਰੋਗੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਭਰਮੈ ॥ ਰੋਗ ਬੰਧ ਰਹਨੁ ਰਤੀ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰੋਗੁ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਇਆ ॥ ਬਾਹ ਪਕੜਿ ਰੋਗਹੁ ਕਢਿ ਲਇਆ ॥ ਤੂਟੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੭॥੨੦॥
_Ha▫umai rog mānuk__ẖ ka▫o __ḏīnā. Kām rog maigal bas līnā.__ Ḏarisat rog pac__ẖ mu▫e pa__ṯangā. Nā__ḏ rog k__ẖap ga▫e kurangā. ||1|| Jo jo __ḏīsai so so rogī. Rog rahi__ṯ merā sa__ṯgur jogī. ||1|| rahā▫o. Jihvā rog mīn garsi▫āno. Bāsan rog b__ẖavar binsāno. He__ṯ rog kā sagal sansārā. Ŧariba__ḏẖ rog mėh ba__ḏẖe bikārā. ||2|| Roge mar__ṯā roge janmai. Roge fir fir jonī b__ẖarmai. Rog ban__ḏẖ rahan ra__ṯī na pāvai. Bin sa__ṯgur rog ka__ṯėh na jāvai. ||3|| Pārbarahm jis kīnī __ḏa▫i▫ā Bāh paka__ṛ rogahu kad__ẖ la▫i▫ā. Ŧūte ban__ḏẖan sā__ḏẖsang pā▫i▫ā. Kaho Nānak gur rog mitā▫i▫ā. ||4||7||20||_

Mankind is afflicted with the disease of egotism. The disease of sexual desire overwhelms the elephant. Because of the disease of vision, the moth is burnt to death. Because of the disease of the sound of the bell, the deer is lured to its death. ||1|| whoever I see is diseased. Only my True Guru, the True Yogi, is free of disease. ||1||Pause|| Because of the disease of taste, the fish is caught. Because of the disease of smell, the bumble bee is destroyed. The whole world is caught in the disease of attachment. In the disease of the three qualities, corruption is multiplied. ||2|| In disease the mortals die, and in disease they are born. In disease they wander in reincarnation again and again. Entangled in disease, they cannot stay still, even for an instant. Without the True Guru, the disease is never cured. ||3|| When the Supreme Akal Purkh grants Its Mercy, grabs hold of the mortal's arm, and pulls him up and out of the disease. Reaching the Company of the Holy, the mortal's bonds are broken and the Guru cures him of the disease, says Nanak ||4||7||20||                               -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1140-17

*ਰਹਿਤ* ਬਿਕਾਰ ਅਲਪ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥​Full Sabd​​*ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ **॥ **ਸਜਨੁ ਸੁਰਿਦਾ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਸੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਬਡਭਾਗੀ **॥ **ਰਹਿਤ* ਬਿਕਾਰ ਅਲਪ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਦਰਸ ਪਿਆਸ ਆਸ ਏਕਹਿ ਕੀ ਟੇਕ ਹੀਐਂ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਪਾਗੀ ॥੧॥ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਸੋਇ ਜਾਗਨੁ ਉਠਿ ਬੈਸਨੁ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਹਸਤ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਠਗਾਨਾ ਸੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਠਾਗੀ ॥੨॥੪੪॥੬੭॥

_Jā kī rām nām liv lāgī. Sajan suri__ḏ__ā suhėlā sehjė so kahī&shy;ai badb__ẖ__āgī. Rahi__ṯ__ bikār alap mā&shy;i&shy;ā __ṯ__ė ahaŉ&shy;bu__ḏẖ__ bik__ẖ_ _ṯ__i&shy;āgī._*

*
One who is lovingly absorbed in the Name of Akal Purkh is a good-hearted friend, intuitively embellished with happiness. He is said to be blessed and fortunate, who is without sin or corruption, is detached from Maya, and has renounced the poison of egotistical intellect.                         -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1217-10

Guru Arjan also ponders on the way of life similarly in the following references’
Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri Sukhmani, AGGS, Page, 283-14
Guru Arjan, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page 71-7
Guru Arjan, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 51-12&13  

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Grewal Ji has explained in FULL what the Sampooran GURU..SGGS has to say on Rehit of a Sikh.Rehit actually BEGINS with Guur nanak Ji Sahib..in SGGS...aand it continues towards 1699 Vasakhi...
The Khandey batte dee Pahul, is the DEEKHYA or INITIATION RITE of Passage into the Khalsa Brotherhood and is Personal Choice of a SIKH who has reached Age of Maturity/Decison Making. Anyone can be born a Sikh/Born into a Sikh Household/Born to Sikh Parents...and thus be a SIKH...BUT to Kneel before the PANJ PIYARAS and VOLUNTARILY ACCEPT the Khalsa Rehit/Discipline/deekhya into the Khalsa Brotherhood is everyones OWN CHOICE. This is the Ultimate GOAL of each and every SIKH...but its never the less voluntary and cannot be forced. Just as each and everyone can be enrolled in a SCHOOL..and can Progress to each further grade/step...ultimately its personal choice/decision to SIT for the EXAMINATION. No student can be forced to sit an exam...and just as sitting for an Exam is merely a first step,,,Khandey dee Pahul is only a FIRST STEP...the hard work comes later...Most DONT realise this crucial step...they think merely becoming a KHALSA and wearing the 5 kakaars CONFERS the ULTIMATE SPIRITUAL PEAK..and henceforth they can sit on their laurels and bask in the glory of being holier than THOU...little do they know that they have just passed the exam..qualified...and NOW MUST PRACTISE it to perfection. A Doctor studies for years, sits the exams, passses and qualifies...HE THEN BEGINS TO PRACTISE what he learnt...to PERFECTION...No Doctor would pass his exam and sit abck..thinking i am the BEST doctor there is...how foolish..and being a Perfect KHALSA is so much more STRINGENT thna  amere Doctor...but strangely even kids age of 5 take Khandey dee Pahul as so EASY...thye think they have arrived at the peak...how foolish of them...
Personal Thanks to Grewal Ji for taking the SPN Guideliens seriously  and giving us the Full Shabads so there is no room for doubts/duality.Keep in Chardeekalla Jios..


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## Inder singh (Jun 3, 2009)

> Sant hari Singh Randhawawllah refused to debate with Jeonwallah and Prof darshan Singh.
> He called Jeonwallah as "BELOW MY STANDARD"...and as to debating with Prof darshan Singh....he replied... dsm granth discussion is banned by Akal takhat...
> 
> Guru Nanak Ji says..kicch sunneah kichh kaheah Nanak... ASKING questions is not banned in Gurmatt. Claiming to have the ONE and ONLY answer is anti-gurmatt.
> ...



This is not fact. Spokesman is a big liar.

When Darshan singh started speaking , sangat objected saying that Ragi is violating Hukamnama of akal Takhat by criticizing Dasam granth.

 He was not allowed to speak and hence the discussion was terminated...


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## spnadmin (Jun 3, 2009)

Inder ji

How do you define "truth?"


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Dear Gyani Ji,

Thanks for clarifying Baptism and stressing on the intertwined difficult principles, which the individual must follow. Sikh baptism in to Khalsa is not the means to an end but a beginning of a hard and steep journey towards becoming a Guru willed individual. It is not the ritual of baptism but living in thought, word, spirit, and deed of the principles laid down; otherwise it stays as a ritual. No external icon, symbol, religious dress, bought Akhand Path, or body position or sequence of words or numbers, has ever made God respond any better to any prayer, nor made heaven or earth or hell or anything else supernaturally bend to anyone's bidding. These deceitful situations are not a check that you can draw on the bank of God, whenever you are hard put to meet your needs. 

*It is the sincerity and absolute honesty which are of prime importance to progress in spirituality.* 

The moment you believe that baptism has any powers or merit of its own, you believe in magic, you are being idolatrous, and you are breaking the teachings of your faith. Guru Nanak in Raag Asa advises a Brahmin;

ਕਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੈ ਧੋਤੀ ॥ਗਿਆਨੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕੁਸਪਾਤੀ ॥ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਸੁ ਜਾਚਉ ਨਾਉ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥ਪਾਂਡੇ ਐਸਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਮੇ ਸੁਚਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਪੜਉ ਨਾਮੇ ਚਜੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਨੇਊ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਮਾਇਆ ਪਰਜਾਲਿ ॥ਏਕੋ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਤੁ ਗਗਨ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ਪਾਹਰੂਅਰਾ ਛਬਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਿਲਾਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੁ ॥ਬੂਝੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਬੇਕੁ ॥ਆਚਾਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਤਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥

_Kā¬i¬ā barahmā man hai ḏẖoṯī, Gi¬ān janė¬ū ḏẖi¬ān kuspāṯī, Har nāmā jas jācẖa¬o nā¬o, Gur parsādī barahm samā¬o, Pāŉdė aisā barahm bīcẖār, Nāmė sucẖ nāmo paṛa¬o nāmė cẖaj ācẖār, Bāhar janė¬ū jicẖar joṯ hai nāl, Ḏẖoṯī tikā nām samāl, Aithai othai nibhī nāl, viṇ nāvai hor karam na bẖāl, Pūjā parėm mā¬i¬ā parjāl, Ėko vėkẖhu avar na bẖāl, Cẖīnĥai ṯaṯ gagan ḏas ḏu¬ār, Har mukẖ pāṯẖ paṛai bīcẖār, Bẖojan bẖā¬o bẖaram bẖa¬o bẖāgai, Pāhrū¬arā cẖẖab cẖor na lāgai, Ŧilak lilāt jāṇai parabẖ ėk, Būjẖai barahm anṯar bibėk, Ācẖārī nahī jīṯi¬ā jā¬ė, Pāṯẖ paṛai nahī kīmaṯ pā¬ė, Asat ḏasī cẖahu bẖėḏ na pā¬i¬ā, Nānak saṯgur barahm ḏikẖā¬i¬ā._ 

Let the body be the Brahmin, and let the mind be the loin-cloth; let spiritual wisdom be the sacred thread, and meditation the ceremonial ring. I seek the Name of the Akal Purkh and Its Praise as my cleansing bath. By Guru's Grace, I am absorbed into God. O religious scholar, contemplate God in such a way that Its Name may sanctify you, be your study, be your wisdom and way of life. The outer sacred thread is worthwhile only as long as the Divine Light is within. So make the remembrance of the Name of the Akal Purkh, your loin-cloth and the ceremonial mark on your forehead. Here and hereafter, the Name alone shall stand by you. Do not seek any other actions, except the Name. Worship the Akal Purkh in loving adoration, and burn your desire for Maya. Behold only the One Creator, and do not seek out any other. Become aware of reality, in the Sky of the Tenth Gate; read aloud the Its Word, and contemplate it. With the diet of Its Love, doubt and fear depart. With the God as your night watchman, no thief will dare to break in. Let the knowledge of the One God be the ceremonial mark on your forehead. Let the realization that God is within you be your discrimination. Through ritual actions, God cannot be won over; by reciting sacred scriptures, It’s value cannot be estimated. The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know Its mystery. O Nanak, the True Guru has shown me the God. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 355


Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> This is not fact. Spokesman is a big liar.
> 
> When Darshan singh started speaking , sangat objected saying that Ragi is violating Hukamnama of akal Takhat by criticizing Dasam granth.
> 
> He was not allowed to speak and hence the discussion was terminated...


 
These kinds of Hukumnaama are anti Gurmat and against the teachings of SGGS. Sikhi is based on interaction, not on some hukumnaama by some who do not understand the concept of SGGS.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Tejwant Singh ji,What i wrote didn't mean to hatred but to avoid the arguments without reason. i have earlier said that some people (you know) may agree the ultimate decision but aree compelled from their habits to not to accept by hearts, Guru Nanak Dev Ji has sais in "Asa di War" that 'Apradhi doona nivey Ridey kasudey jaye' means the offender shall bow many times in agreeing but by heart he will always opt to choose the other way.'


I have no idea what you are talking about in the above statement. The fact is that you have used Gurbani to insult and degrade others in a disrespectful manner which is not the aim of studying Gurbani. In the above you have again used Gurbani as a weapon against others rather than a tool for yourself to practice it in your own life. Please elaborate in lay man's terms with the examples from SGGS to express what you are trying to say so we can all learn from it.



> Thia is exactly the close associates of Kala Afgana , You and some other persons doing the same.


Who are these close associates of Kala Afghana that you and Inder Singh keep on talking about repeatedly? Are they your and Inder Singh's relatives? Your friends? Do you know them personally and have discussed your dissatisfaction whatever you may have with them and Kala Afghana? As I requested before to both of you, honesty is the cornerstone of Sikhi, not talking in riddles and taunting others with baseless accusations.



> When all the proves quoted, Photo copies provided about Dasam Granth, still you people asking the authentication. When Dasam Granth was compied in 1698, Guru Gobind Singh ji was alive and he has sighned on many Patras of it. Later on , The Baani of Dasam Granth or Chota Granth was taken care of by Bhai Mani Singh ji, whose hand written letter is enclosed even then you keep on uttering like parrot.


I thought you had pledged yourself not to talk about it in the Ardaas thread which is closed now. What made you change your mind? The facts are all mentioned many times before and are not worth repeating here again. Our only GURU is SGGS. No one else, nothing else. Too bad, you like Inder Singh do not consider SGGS as our ONLY GURU. Inder Singh also had no idea Rehat was mentioned in the SGGS. When I gave him the Panna numbers, he refused to study them and admit his mistakes. Thanks to Virinder ji's help and his excellent essay, one can see that. I hope Inder Singh and others who do not believe in SGGS- as our only GURU, but on some fiction will take advantage of that. Now, if by repeating that SGGS is our only GURU makes me a parrot, then I am one proud one.


> You people are offenders of Sikh Panth. 'Sab Gobind Hai.' true means is that Waheguru ji omnipresent.


Here you go again insulting and disrespecting and mudslinging at others who disagree with you which is neither the objective of Gurbani that you quote to insult others nor is it the objective of Sikhi. You yourself do Ninda and blame others for that. These kinds of things expose your own mindset which btw I am not offended by. Not at all.

Yes, Vaheguru is omnipresent. Please share the description of Vaheguru in your own words so we can understand where you are coming from.




> He is in thieves, and killers also but when a person commits a crime, Waheguru ji at once stops him but in selfishness when he insists to offend, Waheguru distances himself from the offender. In that case all the liability of the offence is solely of the offender, Waheguru or Gobind is not there.


In the above you are just making things up and pretending to play Ik Ong Kaar which is a shame and it has become your habit. It once again shows how arrogant you are. Only Ik Ong kaar knows who is the offender and which milestone each of is at. No one else can find that out. Neither you, me, Inder Singh or anyone else. So one wonders who is the offender here! The one who pretends to speak and act on behalf of Ik Ong kaar and claims to know HIS decisions or one who says that SGGS is our only GURU?

I do not think you understand the meaning of OMNIPRESENCE which btw means ALL included, no exception, and no one can be outside HIS omnipresence. Please check the dictionary or check with those who have misled you in its definition.



> So i can dare to say Waheguru ji is not with you people, search your hearts and find Waheguru ji if he is there. You people argue of changes in Ardas and favor it but do you know the power of Ardas? If it had been known to you, i am sure you would have bowed before it, not insisted to prove the wrong into right.
> Gur fateh and Waheguru sumat bakhshe.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


There you go again playing Ik Ong Kaar. Once again you have no idea what omnipresence means, the word you have used in your post above. Your arrogance and self centeredness of knowing the heart and mind of Ik Ong Kaar speaks volumes about your own self. 

Please share with us how many times the word Ardaas is used in SGGS and what kind of Ardaas did our Gurus use? Who composed the Ardaas used by our Gurus? Please give us the whole Ardaas used by our 10 Gurus. Do not cop out this time like Inder Singh has done many times.

No one is arguing about the power of Ardaas. You are again distorting the facts that were discussed in the other thread.

Thanks for exposing yourself and allowing us to take a glimpse inside your heart.

Sarbat da Bhala. 

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*



Inder singh said:


> Kala afghana does not agree that waheguru is Gurmantra for sikhs. Good to note that some of his disciples do agree that waheguru is Gurmantra.




Do you agree Bandha Bahadhur was a good Sikh?


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 3, 2009)

I think we need to start this discussion from the first post....again...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*



vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Gyani Ji,
> 
> Thanks for clarifying Baptism and stressing on the intertwined difficult principles, which the individual must follow. Sikh baptism in to Khalsa is not the means to an end but a beginning of a hard and steep journey towards becoming a Guru willed individual. It is not the ritual of baptism but living in thought, word, spirit, and deed of the principles laid down; otherwise it stays as a ritual. No external icon, symbol, religious dress, bought Akhand Path, or body position or sequence of words or numbers, has ever made God respond any better to any prayer, nor made heaven or earth or hell or anything else supernaturally bend to anyone's bidding. These deceitful situations are not a check that you can draw on the bank of God, whenever you are hard put to meet your needs.
> 
> ...



Guru Piayere Grewal Ji,
Gurfateh.

From as long ago as i can remember first sitting in my late dad jis Punjabi School/Gurbani classes...I have always held that since SGGS is UNIVERSAL..its Teachings apply equally to ALL. Thus I have always taught that we SIKHS ( or any others) cannot run away and hide behind the excuse that..."OH..in this shabad Guru Ji is addressing the Brahmin...the Pandit..The Mullah..the Kazi...and since I am NONE of those ( I am a SIKH/SINGH/KHALSA !!) all that doesnt apply to ME.
The Universal Teachings of SGGS ALWAYS APPLY TO ALL...Sikhs..Gyanis, Ragis, Jathedars, pardhaans, Skattars....each of us..no matter who is the one beign originally addressed in a Particular Shahabd. The "TEACHINGS" are without BOUNDARIES..and beyond TIME and Place and for all HUMANKIND.
TODAY..since we SIKHS accept the SGGS as our SOLE GURU..we have to take each shabad as personally addressed to US...and CHANGE OUR LIVES ACCORDINGLY...or be prepared to be addressed as BEMUKHS..traitors to the SGGS. The Metaphors of SGGS apply to US..directly and correctly.

Cordially
Jarnail Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Ardaas Changed*

Dear Giani Ji,

Please accept my gratitude from the bottom of my heart as very few rare Gurmukhs can understand the way you said. Guru Nanak says in Raag Basant _"virlaa ko cheenas gur sabad milaa-ay."_AGGS, Page, 1188.


Cordially,


Virinder


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## dalsingh (Jun 4, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Dal singh ji
> 
> I agree with you about Badal.
> 
> ...


 
Can you provide evidence of these excommunications? You may be right, but it is the first time I have heard of it?

Besides, do you not think energy is being deflected from Sikhs really combating the leadership crisis they have by using things like the Dasam Granth?


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## Inder singh (Jun 4, 2009)

> Can you provide evidence of these excommunications? You may be right, but it is the first time I have heard of it?



Given below are references for the excommunication of these two persons

1)Babu Teja Singh - the free encyclopedia

*Babu Teja Singh* (1867 - 1933), leader of the Bhasaur school of fundamentalism, was born on 20 January 1867, the son of'Subadar Sudh Singh and Jion Kaur of the village of Bhasaur in presentday Sangrur district of the Punjab. His original name was Narain Singh. Having received his preliminary education in Punjabi and gurbam or the Sikh sacred texts under Baba Fateh Singh Virakt of Bhasaur (d. 1875), he studied in Government Primary School, Lang, near Patiala, and matriculated from City High School, Patiala, in 1882. He joined the Patiala state army as a havildar (sergeant) in 1882, but resigned three years later to undergo overseer's training at Engineering College, Roorkee, and was after completing the course appointed a suboverseer at Sirhind in the irrigation department of Patiala state on 21 November 1887. The term babu, a common mode of address for junior government officials, soon came to be prefixed to his name. While still in service, he started preaching the tenets of the Sikh faith as interpreted afresh by the Singh Sabha movement. In 1893 he established a Singh Sabha at his native village, Bhasaur, and in the following year he compiled and published Khalsa Rahit Prakash, a Sikh code of conduct. During that year he went on a pilgrimage on foot to Hazur Sahib, Nanded, where lie received pahul or the rites of the Khalsa and was renamed Teja Singh. By his dedicated work in the Singh Sabha, he won wide recognition and, when the Chief Khalsa Diwan was established at Amritsar in 1902, he had the honour of saying the inaugural ardas or prayer. On 1314 June 1903 he convened a largelyattended divan or religious assembly at Bakapur, a small village in Jalandhar district, at which a Muslim family of seven and 28 others were administered pahul. He was nominated a member of the committee set up by the Chief Khalsa Diwan, on 20 October 1910, to draft a Sikh code of conduct, later published under the title, Gurmat Prakash : Bhag Sanskar. But Teja Singh's innate puritanism gradually asserted itself and he started drifting away from the mainstream of Sikh life. In 1907 he set up the Panch Khalsa Diwan or Khalsa Parliament under sanction from a Sikh synod held at Damdama Sahib, Talvandi Sabo, on 13 April 1907. In 1909 he opened a girls school at Bhasaur called Khalsa Bhujangan School where the pupils were required to don turbans like men instead of the traditional women's dupatta or scarf. Babu Teja Singh replaced the Sikh term for God "Vahiguru," by "Vahugur." The word karah prasad, Sikh sacrament, was substituted by mahaprashad. Teja Singh publicly repudiated the Sikh code published by the Chief Khalsa Diwan, Gurmat Prakash : Bhag Sahkar in the preparation of which he himself had earlier participated, and issued his own code, Khalsa Rahit Prakash. He propagated the use of Sikh calendar beginning from the birth of Guru Nanak in AD 1469, and introduced his own titles and honorifics such as Kirpan Bahadur, Kakar Bahadur and Dahra Bahadur. A motion adopted by the Pahch Khalsa Diwan (Khalsa Parliament) disclaimed the Sahajdhari section of the Sikhs. In his literalist zeal, Teja Singh started garbling the Sikh canon and changed the traditional Sikh ardas or daily prayer of supplication. He advocated the expunging from the Guru Granth Sahib of Ragmala as well as of compositions of the Bhaktas and Bhatts. He printed courses of reading for his school comprising barn contained in the Guru Granth Sahib, extracting from it the Bhatts' Savaiyye. He also had copies of the Holy Volume printed without the Ragmala. This led to widespread public protest and the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, at its special meeting held on 31 March 1928, condemned the innovations introduced by the Pahch Khalsa Diwan. At its meeting on 15 July 1928, the Committee appealed to the Sikhs in general to boycott Babu Teja Singh and his colleagues of the Bhasaur Diwan and to the Takhts to excommunicate them. Accordingly, the Akal Takht atAmritsar issued the excommunication decree on 9 August 1928. Other Takhts followed suit, Takht Sri Hazur Sahib, issuing a hukamnama on 13 January 1929, Takht Sri Patna Sahib on 27 March 1929 and Takht Sri Kesgarh Sahib on 22 August 1929. But Teja Singh was far from repentant. Teja Singh suffered a sunstroke on 17 June 1933 and died on 29 August 1933. 
* References*

 1. Lal Singh, Itihas Ranch Khalsa Diwan Sambandhi SuchnaVari. Ludhiana, 1967 
2. VIr Sudhar Pattar arthat Sri Guru Singh Sabha Bhasaur de athme te naume salana divan da sitta.  Bhasaur, 1903 
3. Harbans Singh, "The Bakapur Diwan and Babu Teja Singh of Bhasaur," in The Panjab Past and Present. Patiala, October 1973 




2)Excommunication of Bhag Singh Ambala


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## Inder singh (Jun 4, 2009)

> Do you agree Bandha Bahadhur was a good Sikh?



Baba Banda Bahadar did not contest Gurmantra. Do you think he did?


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## dalsingh (Jun 4, 2009)

Inder Singh

Thanks for that info.

Do you mind answering my other point about Badal and co using Dasam Granth to keep dum kuttarhs in the panth occupied whilst he does what he wants?


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## Inder singh (Jun 5, 2009)

> Do you mind answering my other point about Badal and co using Dasam Granth to keep dum kuttarhs in the panth occupied whilst he does what he wants?



The issue of dasam granth is not creation of Badal and company. In my opinion it is abetted and sustained by anti sikh forces who want to divide and weaken sikhs on filmsy issues.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 5, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> The issue of dasam granth is not creation of Badal and company. *In my opinion it is abetted and sustained by anti sikh forces who want to divide and weaken sikhs on filmsy issues*.


 

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with your above statement in *BOLD. *And those people are you and your ilk who disrespect and do not believe in our only GURU given to us by Guru Gobind Singh ji and our ONLY GURU is SGGS. No one else. Nothing else.


Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jun 5, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Baba Banda Bahadar did not contest Gurmantra. Do you think he did?




He changed the Sikh cry to Fateh Darshan and that was viewed in the same way at the time, so why are you singling out Kala Afghana for special treatment?


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## Inder singh (Jun 6, 2009)

> He changed the Sikh cry to Fateh Darshan and that was viewed in the same way at the time, so why are you singling out Kala Afghana for special treatment?



Please do not equate Banda singh bahadar with kala afghana. Banda Bahadar did a lot for sikhs. He had his weaknesses that resulted in division of sikh ranks. Considering his sacrifces these weaknesses are insignificant.


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## Inder singh (Jun 6, 2009)

> And those people are you and your ilk who disrespect and do not believe in our only GURU given to us by Guru Gobind Singh ji and our ONLY GURU is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No one else. Nothing else.



Excommunicated kala afghana and his sect are liars of the first order.

It is stated many times that all sikhs consider SGGS as their Guru. But these people fabricate their own fables and then spread those.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 6, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I would like to be honest with you. I am getting concerned about you. What you wrote makes no sense. One wonders what has gone wrong which is worriesome to me as a Sikh! 

The reasons about my concerns are regarding your lack of rationale, logic and reasoning. 

You have proved many times in your posts (they are all here for you to read) that you do not accept SGGS as the ONLY GURU of Sikhs which means you deny the fact that Guru Gobind Singh ji bestowed the Guruship to SGGS.

You embrace Dasam Granth instead by undermining,disrepescting and second guessing Guru Gobind Singh ji. It needs nothing more than common sense to see that if Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted a granth by his name then he would not have added his father's Guru Teg Bahadur's Gurbani in SGGS and hence would have rendered it useless.

It is appalling that you and your ilk do not accept Guru Gobind Singh's decision. So now you know that you and people who think the way you do are unshamedly heretic, which is sad.

Please allow me to elaborate it a bit further from your own post.

You write:



> Excommunicated kala afghana and his sect are liars of the first order.


 
You have not been able to respond up to now about ex-communincation which started this thread. I have no idea why you are reluctant about it, yet you shamlessly use the word. So if you have the courage to use the word then you can also gather the Sikhi bravura and respond what ex-communication means from Gurmat ideals as asked by me and urged by many others. Why are you silent about it?

Secondly, your dispute with these people has nothing to do with the discussion here. Are these people your relatives? Why don't you talk to them and settle the dispute? I do not understand the connection between your relatives whom you have dispute with and your rejection of SGGS as our only GURU.

As mentioned by me to you many times that SGGS is our only GURU whom unfortunately you reject and have no idea what is written in there, that is why you had no idea that SGGS, our only GURU explains what REHAT means several times.



> It is stated many times that all Sikhs consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru.


 
I am sorry to say the above makes no sense which makes me worry about you even more. 

It is not stated and it is not a consideration either but a fact that Guru Gobind Singh bestowed Guruship to SGGS our ONLY GURU but you unfortunately reject that fact by second guessing our Guru Sahib. 



> But these people fabricate their own fables and then spread those.


 
I agree with you on the above. People like you and your cohorts have fabricated your own fables by claiming that Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh and by rejecting SGGS as our only GURU which is sad and a shame.

Lastly, I urge you again to explain ex-communication based on Gurmat ideals as asked at the start of the thread.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

No sikh ever denied about SGGS as our guru. 

Dasam granth is our second most revered scripture.

Kala afghhani sect does not believe in

1) Naam simran. They say it is a useless excercise.

2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect SGGS ji. They want to keep it in  a cupboard.

3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace.

4) Kala Afghana sect belittles sikh rehat maryada.

5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a sikh.

6) Kala afghana belittles great sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc.

7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas.

But there are a few shameless tail waggers of this sect who are still idolizing this man even though he is excommunicated. That means they have no respect for instituition of akal takhat. why do not they voluntarily leave and form their own sect? Wish them good luck.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Please do not equate Banda singh bahadar with kala afghana. Banda Bahadar did a lot for sikhs. He had his weaknesses that resulted in division of sikh ranks. Considering his sacrifces these weaknesses are insignificant.



Actually the analogy is a good one. Bandha Bahadhur introduced many many Vashnavite practices into Sikhi which caused a major rift in Sikhi at the time.

Today we have a major Vashnavite slant in Sikhi (and in Punjab generally), who is to say Kala Afgha is not trying to redress this balance and is just misunderstood?


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> No sikh ever denied about SGGS as our guru.
> 
> Dasam granth is our second most revered scripture.
> 
> ...



It is useless if you don't understand it and repeat it like something in a Madrasaa.




Inder singh said:


> 2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect SGGS ji. They want to keep it in  a cupboard.



What is the point of putting the Sri Guru Granth Sahib to bed? Why can't it be kept in a clean cupboard?



Inder singh said:


> 3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace.



It is just a building. It should never be seen as an object of worship. Next we will be facing it like the Kaaba.




Inder singh said:


> 4) Kala Afghana sect belittles sikh rehat maryada.



Which aspects of it?



Inder singh said:


> 5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a sikh.



Where has he stated this? Why is a person not a Sikh without Gurmatra?



Inder singh said:


> 6) Kala afghana belittles great sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc.



How and where does he belittle them? Please show cited examples.



Inder singh said:


> 7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas.



Where does he say this? Please cite exact phrase where he says this? No links to Panthic/Nindya.org please.




Inder singh said:


> But there are a few shameless tail waggers of this sect who are still idolizing this man even though he is excommunicated. That means they have no respect for institution of akal takhat. why do not they voluntarily leave and form their own sect? Wish them good luck.



Why are they shameless? They probably believe he was treated unfairly? It would not be the first time someone was treated unfairly by our illustrious headquarters? I would say it was brave of them to make a stand in the face of violent and hate filled opposition.

NO LINKS TO AKJ/DDT/PANTHIC WEEKLY PLEASE!


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Randip

You have very little knowledge of these incidents. You are participating in this discussion as a tool to aid your buddies. Your beliefs are no different from your comrade/ atheists friends.

He has been sent out packing. Those who cann't reconcile to this fact may form their own group like radhasoamis.


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

> Today we have a major Vashnavite slant in Sikhi (and in Punjab generally), who is to say Kala Afgha is not trying to redress this balance and is just misunderstood?



Give us an example here. Mere pronouncements do no good.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Randip
> 
> You have very little knowledge of these incidents. You are participating in this discussion as a tool to aid your buddies. Your beliefs are no different from your comrade/ atheists friends.
> 
> He has been sent out packing. Those who cann't reconcile to this fact may form their own group like radhasoamis.



Your comments are unhelpful and at worst insulting. Discuss the topic rather than the person.

You have made some serious allegations to which I am playing Devil's advocate.

Please back up the assertions you have made or they will be removed as having no basis.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Give us an example here. Mere pronouncements do no good.



err, this IS exactly what you do in every single one of your threads. So before trying to question me on one comment I have made, try and back up your Magnus Opus of assertions first!

Thanks


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Randip

Sikhs consider SGGS ji as Guru. By changing the dohra and substituting Guru granth by khalsa Panth in Ardas, Kala afghana sect has disowned Sri guru Granth sahib as their Guru.Keep yourself aware of such news.This is the biggest blasphemy so far.




> It is useless if you don't understand it and repeat it like something in a Madrasaa.



Please tell us how naam simran is done per taeching of SGGS ji. How do we understand naam.



> It is just a building. It should never be seen as an object of worship. Next we will be facing it like the Kaaba.



harmandir sahib is built by Guru Arjan dev ji. When it was completed Guru sahib wrote a shabad that is found in SGGS on ang 783. It is sheer ignorance to equate harmandir sahib to any other building of bricks.
sMqw ky kwrij Awip KloieAw hir kMmu krwvix AwieAw rwm ]
   sa(n)th*aa* k*ae* k*aa*raj *aa*p khal*o*e*i**aa* har ka(n)m kar*aa*van *aa*e*i**aa* r*aa*m ||
_The Lord Himself has stood up to resolve the affairs of the Saints; He has come to complete their tasks._



> Which aspects of it?



He ridicules Gurmantra, Dasam granth, amritvela, aRdas, Kirtan. All these are listed in Sikh Rehat maryada. You should read sikh rehat maryada.

We will go to other points later. let us resolve these first.


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

> this IS exactly what you do in every single one of your threads. So before trying to question me on one comment I have made, try and back up your Magnus Opus of assertions first!


You wrote that banda Bahadar introduced vasishnva beliefs in sikhism. PERSONAL COMMENT REMOVED. Vaishnva system believes in Vishnu and his avtars. Sikhism discards this. Banda Bahadar was a baptized sikh. He was thoroughly versed in SGGS ji's bani. 

If you level blame on someone it is your job to follow it up with proof.

EDITOR NOTE - READ ABOUT MADHO DAS AND HIS BAIRAGI TENDANCIES - History of the Sikh People - Dr Gopal Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Whatever you say, it does not surprise me anymore. From you post below, you have revealed yourself in a wonderful way. Your Post show that you consider Sikhi not as a unique way of life but a Hindu off shoot. Your responses indicate that you dwell in Hindutva. Please do not take this as an insult. This is what you have shown and admitted yourself to be.

Allow me to use your own post to show you your true belief system.

 



> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _No Sikh ever denied about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our guru. _
> ...


First of all for SIKHS, SGGS is our only GURU. No one else. Secondly,thanks for using the word revered. I am sure you understand its meaning.I am sure you are aware of the fact that Dasam Granth has many things related to Hinduism. Let me share that with others what you really mean by that

Revere means to worship. One worships an idol.

For you as you have mentioned many times before even through private emails that Naam Simran is repeating- Parroting, which is again a concept borrowed from Hinduism. 

In Sikhi Naam Simran is studying, understanding and practicing the teachings given to us in the SGGS, our only GURU so that we can breed goodness within and make a difference in the world. It has nothing to do with parroting as you claim.




> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji. They want to keep it in a cupboard._


 
 So you wrap your Kirtan CDs and the hard drive of your computer in Rumallas and under a chandoa?

Once again, you have shown your Hindu mentality of idol worshipping. SGGS is not an idol. Gurbani is not an Idol. Gurbani tells us on every page of SGGS to study it, understand it and put into practice. Shabad Vichaar which is urged by our Gurus otherwise SGGS just becomes an idol.




> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace._


Once again you have shown with your thinking that a building is where Ik Ong Kaar resides. Just like the Hindu Pandits who would not let Bhagat Ravi Das enter into the temple.

Harmandir Sahib is a building with a great concept of 4 doors conceived by Guru Sahib to welcome all humanity from all walks of life from any faith or creed. Harmandir Sahib has value because of SGGS prakash inside. The building without SGGS is just a building which unfortunately was converted into white elephant by Maharaja Ranjit Singh by gold leafing it. After that all Gurdwaras got on the band wagon to have golden domes. The same money could be utilised to help the needy, to establish schools and colleges. Now money is spent to upkeep the building. What a waste!

Solace is only found by studying, understanding, accepting and putting the teachings of SGGS in practice. Solace is not just in matha tek in front of SGGS.




> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _4) Kala Afghana sect belittles Sikh rehat maryada._


 
The above is just whining and grumbling. People talk like that when they have run out of any reason or logic. As you do not consider SGGS our only GURU, you showed that you had no idea that SGGS mentions waht REHAT means.




> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a Sikh._


 
Read my earlier posts and repsond about the questions I have asked you regarding Gurmantra. Your are whining again because you have nothing logical to say or to share.




> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _6) Kala afghana belittles great Sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc._


LOL... Keep on whining. Once again you have shown your Hindu mentality here. What is the above have to do with your not accepting SGGS as our ONLY GURU. There is NO second, third, fourth.......GURU.ONLY SGGS. Why do you fail to grasp that?




> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas._


Once again you are using diversion tactics like Hindus use so you do not have to accept SGGS as our ONLY GURU. whether there were chali muktas or not does not give you the excuse not to accept our ONLY GURU- SGGS.

Inder Singh ji,

I want to thank you for showing your true colors and your faith in Hinduism which is not a bad thing. Lots of Hindus are also members of this SIKH forum.


Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

> the fact that Dasam Granth has many things related to Hinduism



Let us know those. If you are not able quote those you will be dubbed as habitual distorter.


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## Inder singh (Jun 7, 2009)

> In Sikhi Naam Simran is studying, understanding and practicing the teachings given to us in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji



Please read 

Naam ke dhare simrat bed puran

Naam Ke dhare sunan Gian dhian

ang 284

and

Naam te sabh upje
Bhai nai visrai mar jai

ang 603


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> Please read
> 
> Naam ke dhare simrat bed puran
> 
> ...



Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please  follow the forum rules and give the whole Shabads.  If you decide to copy and paste literal translations, then also  express the meanings of the above Shabads in your own words because most of the literal translations are misleading.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

1. Accepting Khandey Batte Dee Pahul is only a FIRST STEP for a KHALSA. The REAL HARD work comes AFTER this step. The Real Hard Work is CHANGING ones LIFE according to the Tools provided for in Gurbani and SGGS. IF no such changes take place..then its just BHEKH. Those "sants/Brahmgianis" who insist that simply taking Pahul GUARANTEES that Guru Gobind Singh Ji will pull you out of Hell.... ( Anti-Gurbani concept) ...by your Kesh, and that one can Committ a million sins/paaps ( anti-gurbani concept) you will still be BORN in Khalsa House for 10,000 Janams (another anti-gurbani concept) are on solid Brahminism ground..NOT GURMATT. There should be NO "instant" Pahul...no "forced" pahul...no "Give away pahul"....PAHUL has got to BE VOLUNTARY.self willed, self prepared and ready to live the life of Rehit and Committed to the Challenges ahead. Not where they even give you FREE kanghas, kirpans, kacheras and karras...to ENTICE you into becoming a Khalsa..again and again..just to BOOST numbers. THIS is just like the BRAHMIN WHO CAME PREPARED TO PUT A FREE JANEAU ON GURU NANAK JI....  This is NOT dissing Pahul, is not anti-pahul propoganda...etc etc its PUTTING the PAHUL in its Proper perspective...proper Context...as Guru Ji did in 1699 - OFFER your HEAD FIRST...Be Committed..Be in your full senses and agree fully...and come with PREM. ( I personally met a group of rowdy monas on a bus from Jallandhar to Chandigarh and they were going to FatehGarh Sahib for "amrit Chhak" becasue they were giving out FREE KAMBALS...as well as kacheras karras kirpans etc. From talk among them that i over heard this group went from one amrit sanskaar to another collecting kanghas karras kirpans kambals and kacheras which they sold/used..and they were freshly SHAVED..but who cares...all get yellow siropas..and honour and free Gifts..and so they chhak amrit again and again..wow. When I asked them..they replied..Uncle Ji..Amrti changee cheez hai..jineh marzee chhako..koi nuksaan taan nahin hoga ?? IS THIS what we want for KHALSA JI ??

2. IF EK Oangkar is CONFINED to Harmandir sahib Amrtisar..then what is the Lesson in Guru nanak jis Mecca sakhi ?? (Btw read the Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin and see how anti-grmatt all thsi is. in that book VISHNU informs Guru Arjun ji..THIS is MY MANDIR, and thats why its built in water, and since its MY HOME..YOU will VACATE it every NIGHT ( this is why SGGS is taken OUT each night !!)...and so much more...) The Harmandir in Gurbani is the Human Body, and WAHEGURU DWELLS inside each HUMAN BODY...He si WITHIN...not confined to any building. Harmandir Sahib is SIGNIFICANT to Sikhism as our CENTRAL Place of Worship, Guru Amardass Ji, Guru ramdass Ji and Guru Arjun ji sahibs built it, our AAD granth and now SGGS is parkash there, it has NIROL GURBANI KIrtan for most of the Day/Night..THOSE and many other REASONS why we regard it as SIGNIFICANT and  worth visiting...BUT its NOT where  EK Oangkaar stays..its not Holy just for that reason..its NOT our "MECCA"
I have Visited Harmandir Sahib..its a place of so much peace, serenity, spirituality oozes from its walls, the sarovar ishnaan is way out of this world, the entire atmosphere every where ( and after 1984) each stone..each tile has its own tale to tell the true seekers....the Akal takaht is simpy awesome...SURE the CREATOR seesm so NEAR within the Confines of the Darnar sahib Complex...BUT we must not "confine" EK Oangkar within its walls..HE is much GREATER...

3. Gurbani and SGGS is 1429 pages...of GYAAN...TOOLS meant to be USED practically to change our daily LIVES....a recipe for SUCCESS..an ADRASH..a GOAL to be achieved during our life span.
Its not meant to be read like a mantra...meaninglessly and hope to achieve salvation simply be reading it...ITS GOT TO BE APPLIED.  THATS the difference between the KHALSA who APPLIED GURBANI and those who just read it...its meant to be KAMAYEED...you got to churn milk to  get butter....just looking at milk wont do anything....the butter is there but you got to work at it...  NAAM KAMAII is PRACTICALLY LIVING NAAM....so that it SHINES THROUGH....otherwise CD players also chant endlessly until they wear out....Simply too many "CD players" around Today..thats our misfortune...they just continue to play whatever was RECORDED on them by their Masters...HMV's pure and simple.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 7, 2009)

Gyani ji you have reffered 1429 pages of Guru Granth Sahib ji instead of 1430 pages. Is this not an anti concept of AGGS ? Why did you not mention the last page ? How can a Singh in Tabya could ignore to recite the Raag-Mala? At least not by a GYANI or a SCHOLAR.


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

Ragmala NirNiya
By Prof. Piara Singh Padam
Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar

Just as in Punjabi literature, poets have written love stories of “Sohni-Maheevaal” and “Mirzaa-Sahibaa”, in old Hindustani literature, “Madhavaanal & Kaamkandla” is a story many poets wrote. Prof. M R Maujamdar (Baroda College) is the main researcher in regards to the old literature related to Kamkandla. He has written me a letter in which he says that Pandit Anandhar had written “Madhvaanal Akhian” in a mix of Sanskirt language in the 11th or 14th Century. Prakrit can also be found in this work. The story has been presented as a minor play.

After this, Gurjarti poet Ganpat, who was a resident of Baroch Gujarat, wrote a long poem Madhvaanal Kaamkandla Prabodh in 1584 Bikrami. There are eight chapters and 2565 verses in it. From a literary view, this is important to read for a researcher.

After this, in 1616 Bikrami, Kaushllaabh wrote Maadhvaanal Kaamkandla Chaupaiee. Both these books are written in Rajasthani language and have been influenced by Prakrit.

Based on Sanskrit and Praakrit books, poet Aalam, a contemporary orf Akbar, in 1640 Bk. wrote the book Madhvaanal Katha in Hindi. This has 353 verses and most of it is Chaupaiee style. This story was first very famous in Gujarat and so, after Akbar had conquered Gujarat, he had it translated into Hindi. Aalam has hinted at this in the start of his work.

Prof Maujamdar in his book writes:

“This story appears to have been popular mostly in Western India, only very a late period it came to be adopted in Marathi. The version of the story in Hindi by a Muslim poet, “Alam” styled “Madhavnal Katha” was composed in Hijri samt 991 (1640Bi,. 1584 AD) only a decade after Akbar’s conquest of Gujrat at the expressed desire of Raja Todar Mal for the pleasure of emperor Akbar.”

This belief has been supported by Missr. Bandu Binod, Ram Chand Shukal, Ganga Prashaad and Dr. Hira Lal. This belief by the academics is not based on some hearsay, but based on the book’s internal evidence.

Jgpq rwj kot jug kIjY[ Swh jlwl Cq®piz jIjY idlIpiq Akbr sulqwnw[ spq dIp mih jw kI Awnw[ Drm rwj sB dys clwvw[ ihMdU qurk pMQ sB lwvw[ AwgY nYb mhwmq mMq®I[ in®p todr ml Cq®I[ … dys dys ky Bupiq AwvihM[ duAwry Bir vwr nihM pwvihM[ sMn nO sO ieikAwvn AwhI[ kro kQw ab bolo qwhI[ kCu ApnI kC p®wik®q coro~[ XQw Skq kr Acr joro[

After this, the story in the book (briefly) follows that a singer by the name of Maadhvaanl is a resident of Pushpaavti. All the women of the town are attracted to him. The King exiles Maadhv and from there he goes to King Kamsain’s town of Kaamvati. Here a dancer by the name of Kaamkandla is dancing in the King’s court. Here, poet Alam takes the opportunity to show his knowledge of Raags, and has Kaam Kandla sings the family of Raags according to the Hanumant school. It is important to be a good storyteller so the poet keeps both things in mind. First he paints a picture of many instruments being played and then he begins the singing of the raags. The poet writes:


BIn auPMg bMsrI bwjY[ FwfI jMq® Amim®qI swjY[ surmMfl vwjY Gn qMqI[ rud® bIn swrMg bhu BmqI[ aJlqwl kT qwl bjqvY[ agnI qwl q®Mg aUpjwvY[ jlq qrMg AMim®q kuMflI[ kuMBr bwjY iml Duin BlI[
dohrw- bwjY srb sMgIq gq qMq AqMq Gn qwl[ bhur AlwpY rwg Kt pMc pMc sMg bwl]33]
cOpeI-ip®Qm rwg Byrau vY kreI[ pWchu kwmin muKhu aucreI]....

After this, the entire composition is that which some fan of raags has titled “Ragmala” and entered in Guru Granth Sahib. It should be remembered that the Aadi BiR was put together by Guru Arjan in 1661 Bk. And Ragmala was written in 1640 Bk. For this reason, it is completely baseless for supporters of Ragmala to say that Alam stole this composition from Guru Granth Sahib and put it in his book.

Supporters of Ragmala say that a contemporary of Akbar, Jodh, wrote a Sanskrit book, “Madhvaanal Kaamkandla” and no Alam was around at that time. This Alam, they claim, is from the time of Dashmesh jee. He has translated that Sanskrit book into Hindi and stolen Ragmala out of Guru Granth Sahib and then put it in his own book, because Alam, being a poet of Dashmesh ji, knew Sikh literature very well. They claim that the date in the book of 991 Hijri was put there accidentally and is a translation of the date in the original. They say that the real date of the composition is 1774 Bk. To support this claim, they cite the Dohara:


byd dIp muin ieMd Dr sivqw juvq gqwn[ hMs vwr iQq AstmI swkw ibk®m jwn[

This is the total evidence of the supporters of Ragmala. We want to reflect on this evidence here. Firstly, the above Dohara that gives the date as 1774 Bk. is not found in any old hand written copy. Two hand-written copies have been found of this composition. One is at the Nagri Prcharni Sabha, Benaras and the other is at Bikaner’s Fort Library. This Dohara is not in either copy.

One copy in Gurmukhi script is found in the Guru Ram Das Library in Amritsar. This Dohara is not in that one either. S. Shamsher Singh Ashok, in the copies he found at Punjab University Lahore also did not find the Dohara there. Where the Ragmala supporters are citing this Dohara from is beyond me. Even if this Dohara is in some book’s end, it is the date that the copy was made, not the date of the composition itself, because the date is given clearly at the start as 1640 Bk.

However, the real date of this composition is disputed by the supporters of Ragmala and they it is the creation date of Jodh Kavi’s Sanskrit work, which was accidentally copied by Alam. I want to ask these people, is there even any Jodh Kavi who wrote a Sanskrit work “Madhvaanal Katha” during the time of Akbar? The truth is that in the list of Sanskrit writers at the time of Akbar, there is no mention of any Jodh Kavi. For proof, the books “History of Sanskrit Literature”, Sanskrit Kavita Komdi” and “Sanskrit Kavio(n) Kaa Ithihaas” can be checked. Prof. Maujamdar in a letter to me has aid that “No mention is found of a “Madhavnaal Katha” by any Jodh Kavi in old records, nor have I ever heard of a Jodh Kavi.”

Supporters of Ragmala should tell us where we can find this Sanskrit “Madhav Katha” in either published or unpublished form.

The truth is before academics: there was no Jodh Kavi and no literature by him. Though, if someone now creates some fabricated saloks, they could become a “truth”.

Even if we accept for the sake of argument Shiv Sinh Saroj’s word, which is wrong, that Alam was born in 1712 Bk. this story by him was written in 1774 Bk. This would mean that at the age of 62 during his old age, he liked to write the story of a prostitute. And this would be the same Alam who had spent much time in the Guru’s Darbar. This does not seem possible on a psychological level. Such love stories are generally only written in the time of youth. Secondly, if Alam had written Madhav Katha in Hindi during this time, he certainly would have mentioned Dashmesh ji or Bahadar Shah. But the Kavi only sings the praises of Akbar or Todar Mal.

It can be accepted that during the time of Dashmesh ji, there was another Kavi Alam. However it is certain that the Hindi writer of Maadhvaanal Katha was contemporary of Akbar who wrote Ragmala in his book. This composition was then stolen and put at the end of Sree Guru Granth Sahib by someone and labeled “Ragmala”.

It is possible that Bhai Banno added this composition just like he had added RatanMala, because in the Bhai Banno BiR, Ragmala is found at the end of all other extraneous compositions that were added. If Guru Arjan had added Ragmala, then it was important that it would have been after Mundavani in the Bhai Banno biR (before all the extra compositions). Because, Bhai Banno only added his extraneous material after copying all the bani Bhai Gurdas had written. In Bhai Banno’s BiR, Ragmala comes at the end of all the Banis. This proves that perhaps Bhai Banno heard this from someone and then added it. This remains an issue for research that who added Ragmala. It is possible that even in Bhai Banno’s biR, someone else added Ragmala. But this is clear tha the biR Bhai Banno copied did not have Ragmala in it.

Even now there are 8-10 old hand written BiRs that do not have Ragmala and others that have Ragmala added even after the “Siahee Kee Bidh”. Supporters of Ragmala are unable to answer why these biRs have been left without Ragmala. Up to here was the historical debate on Ragmala.

Now I want to look at the internal arrangement of Ragmala to see where it is from. Firstly, the pronouns in Ragmala show that the nouns have appeared somewhere before it in the composition, which becomes clear when Alam’s Madhvaanal Katha is read. But if we consider the Ragmala in Sree Guru granth Sahib to be an independent composition, the pronouns do not make any sense.

Bhai Veer Singh, in his knowledge, has said that the Ragmala refers to the “rwg rqn prvwr prIAw sbd gwvx AweIAw” in Guru Amardas Sahib’s Anand Sahib. From a grammatical standpoint, I do not understand why nouns used by Guru Amar Das would be referred to in the pronoun form by Guru Arjan Dev jee. If we accept Bhai Sahib’s view based on him being an elder, that “vai” and “oun” ec. Are pronouns for the “Raag Pareeaa(n)’s” nouns, the question arises that what would the meaning of “p®Qm rwg Byrau vY krhI” be? That the raags first sang Bhairo(n)? Meaning the raags came and sang raags? Only Bhai Sahib knows the answer to this problem.

The verbs that follow should also be kept in mind:



1) p®Qm rwg Byrau vY krhI]
2) pMcm hrK idsqK sunwvih]
3) duqIAw mwl kausk Awlwpih]
4) auTih qwn klOl gwien qwr imilavhI]
5) sb imil isrI rwg vY gwvih]
6) iqh pwCY isMDvI b]AlwpI]
7) aUcy suir sUhau puinkInI]
Kst rwg auin gwey sMig rwgnI qIs]


From these verbs it is clear that some singer is singing these raags. Who is doing this all? If Guru Arjan Dev has given this only as a list of raags, then who is being referred to as singing loud and mixing melodies? A smart scholar like Pr. Jodh Singh writes “Guru Granth Sahib has been written in raags and so it was necessary to tell which “mat” singing these raags is appropriate in. Dr. Charan Singh has reached the conclusion that the mat in Guru Sangeet is different from other mats and they have created Ragmala to showcase this.” (August 25, Khalsa Advocate).

1) From this Ragmala, can it be discovered which mat (school) it is right to sing raags in? Can someone intelligent tell which notes for raags and timings/venues are discussed?
2) Secondly, if this has been written to show how to correctly sing the raags, why did Guru Sahib start the pothi at Sree Raag?
3) Why is Bhairon left for 24th spot?
4) Why did not all the raags used find their way into Ragmala?
5) Why were those raags not used also listed?
6) It should be remembered that 9 raags used in BaNee are not found in Ragmala. The truth is that Guru Granth Sahib contains spiritual truth not information on raags. This is just a fictional composition.

Beyond this, the mistakes in Ragmala also show that the person who added it did so after hearing it and did so very quickly. Bngaal is written as Bangaalm, Kalaekhi is Kachaeli, kalingan is kalanka, sindhri is sandoor, barbal is prabal, maalav is saloo, kukani is gungani, kaukhat is khoukhat and jaalandhar is jablidhar. There are other mistakes as well such as “raag raag sang panch barangan” is written “raag ek sang panch barangan” ; “malkaus raag sang laiee” is “maal rag kousak sang laiee”; “kaval kusam panchan kay nama” is “chanpak kay nama”.

These mistakes show that this is not written by Guru jee, but written hurriedly and after being heard only.

Ragmala has a line, “Asht putar bhairav kay gaavehn gain patra” Patr here means prostitute ie. Kamkandla and her friends. Pr. Jodh Singh has written after considerable stretching of meanings that patra does not mean prostitute. But using examples from Maadhv Kathavaa(n)” we can show that it has been used for KamKandla ie. “Nirt karehn nvli gtai kaam kandla paatr” (ch. 5, verse 35)

At any rate, it becomes clear that Ragmala is being sung by a prostitute and Alam is the writer. Those who say this is a composition of Guru Arjan, why can they not explain why it does not have M: 5 in the heading? Why is Nanak not in it? Why is the language different from Guru Arjan Dev jee’s simple and clear language? Where Alam writes “Asht putar mai kahay savari” why is this writing style not found in Guru Arjan Dev jee’s bani anywhere?

Then, the numbering system of Ragmala’s verses also expose it. Instead of 1, 2, 3…the ignorant writer has written “1” 12 times. The person who added it did not put the correct numbers according to the original work, nor are they independently correct. Has Guru jee used such a method anywhere else when numbering verses? The truth is that such a baseless thing that it is weak on all sides. To call such a composition Gurbani is not only a disrespect to Gurbani, it is also a blow to the Sikh faith. Guru jee has clearly said :


bwxI gurU gurUu hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMim®q swry] (982)


Banee is that which contains the truth and naam amrit. This GurbaNee has been concluded at Mundavani. After adding this final seal, there is no question of adding anything after it. Bhai Veer Singh, defying all traditional meanings, defines Mundavni to be a “riddle” to make Ragmala baNee.

Bhai Veer Singh says that Mudavanee found in Sorath Kee Vaar is replied to in the Mundavanee. The truth is that there is no Mundavanee heading there no the word “Mundavanee”. It is there without a tipee as “Mudavanee”. Guru Sahib himself answers this riddle “Eh MudavaNee Satguru paiee, Gursikha(n) ladhee bhaal”. Then why did Guru Arjan Dev jee need to open It further? If it was an answer to the riddle, it should have appeared in Sorath Kee Vaar.

Anyways, the Mundavnee found at the end of Sree Guru Granth Sahib is based on “Mund” or to close. It is the closing seal. Guru Granth Kosh, BaNee Biora, Mahan Kosh and the Faridkoti Teekaa all define it as “seal”. However, in the newer editions of BaNee Biora and Guru Granth Kosh, Mudavanee and Mundavanee have been grouped together and defined as “riddle”. This is not appropriate for a writer but to make Ragmala baaNee, it has not been considered wrong.

Here we also give a list of names of those who did not believe Ragmala to be GurbaNee, which shows what learned people believe: Mahakavi Bhai Santokh Singh; Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; Gyani Dit Singh and Prof. Gurmukh Singh of the Singh Sabha Movement; well known historian Gyani Gyan Singh; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; J. C. Cunningham - the author of History of Sikhs; well-known historian Macauliff; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh, Master Tara Singh, Gyani Sher Singh, Babu Teja Singh, Giani Nahar Singh, Principal Dharmanant Singh, Prof. Teja Singh, Principal Ganga Singh, Dr. Ganda Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C., Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa, Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh, Principal Narinjan Singh, Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh and many others.

G. Gian Singh has said that at the Deepmala of 1906BK, a Panthic decision was reached that Ragmala is not Gurbanee. Giani jee writes:


SMmq aunI sO Cy mwh[ ibk®m pwvn kqk Awih[ sMq idAwl isMG ky fyry[ pMQ iek~Tw Bxo vDyry[ ies pr Bxo vicwr Apwrw[ dipmwl pr inrnyvwrw[ Bxo inbyr vicwria Xw hY[ rwgmwlw gurbwxI nw hY[


After, this when writing the “Rehit Maryada” draft, the Panthic scholars decided to have the bhog at Mundavanee, but despite this, Bhai Veer Singh wrote at the end of Guru Granth Kosh that Gurmat Sangeet is different from other Sangeet traditions and Guru Arjan Dev jee wrote Ragmala to show this. Thus, Ragmala is Bani. Khalsa Samchar newspaper repeated these baseless statements many times and scholars refuted these each time. But because of Bhai Veer Singh being an elder or some other reason, no scholar wrote against him."


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

*Inder Singh ji, please answer the questions before moving on:

*


Inder singh said:


> No sikh ever denied about SGGS as our guru.
> 
> Dasam granth is our second most revered scripture.
> 
> ...



It is useless if you don't understand it and repeat it like something in a Madrasaa. Is it not?




Inder singh said:


> 2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect SGGS ji. They want to keep it in  a cupboard.



What is the point of putting the Sri Guru Granth Sahib to bed? Why can't it be kept in a clean cupboard?



Inder singh said:


> 3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace.



It is just a building. It should never be seen as an object of worship. Next we will be facing it like the Kaaba. Would this be good?




Inder singh said:


> 4) Kala Afghana sect belittles sikh rehat maryada.



Which aspects of it?



Inder singh said:


> 5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a sikh.



Where has he stated this? Why is a person not a Sikh without Gurmatra?



Inder singh said:


> 6) Kala afghana belittles great sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc.



How and where does he belittle them? Please show cited examples.



Inder singh said:


> 7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas.



Where does he say this? Please cite exact phrase where he says this? No links to Panthic/Nindya.org please.




Inder singh said:


> But there are a few shameless tail waggers of this sect who are still idolizing this man even though he is excommunicated. That means they have no respect for institution of akal takhat. why do not they voluntarily leave and form their own sect? Wish them good luck.



Why are they shameless? They probably believe he was treated unfairly? It would not be the first time someone was treated unfairly by our illustrious headquarters? I would say it was brave of them to make a stand in the face of violent and hate filled opposition.

NO LINKS TO AKJ/DDT/PANTHIC WEEKLY PLEASE!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer Singh Ji.Gurfateh.

Besides the excellent answer provided earlier on Raagmala..( Raagmala is NOT Gurbani )
There are a few PAGES of Tatkara...also. Would you consider these as part of Gurbani ? I dont.
I DONT read the Raagmala at my private paath bhogs. I DO READ it at someones samagam if he wants it or Gurdwara Samagams as this is SRM sanctioned. The tatkara is NOT READ at any Paath Arambhta. The SGGS COMPLETES AT MUNDAWNNI MH 5 which is the SEAL STAMP of Guru Arjun Ji Sahib.
The SGGS is complete with the Concluding SLOK of THANKSGIVING...Slok mh 5 Tera Kita jatoh nahin..
SEE how Beautifully symmtery SGGS has..BEGINS with SLOK..AAD SACH jugaad sach ....and ENDs with Slok..Tera Kita...ALL ends tied up so nicely...SAMPOORAN GURU..SGGS.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

Gyani ji, Gur Fateh.
As a Pandit or precher knows to web the art of words, you are very clever.You write that you do not read Raag-mala at your place but to keep other's sentiments not hurt, you read at Gurudwara or at Samagams. You fool yourself by thus act of you.
See:--You prove that the seai stamp of Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji is there at Mundawani M5, but you forget that this Granth is not accepted by Sikh Panth and Gur-gaddi was not bestowed to this Granth. It consists only 505 pages and is at Kartarpur with the heirs of Dhirmalliye. 
You should go and read the Granth written by Bhai Mani Singh ji /Baba Deep singh ji. You will get your answer over there.
For your kind information almost every writer after completion and composition of his book conclude with something special to adorn in praise of his writing etc. Raagmal seems a composition to thanks all the fictional family of Raags.I have read that a committee was formed under supervision of Sikh philosophers like Bhai Veer Singh ji and it approved , submitted it's report  after visiting Kartar pur Sahab.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Gur Fateh.
> As a Pandit or precher knows to web the art of words, you are very clever.You write that you do not read Raag-mala at your place but to keep other's sentiments not hurt, you read at Gurudwara or at Samagams. You fool yourself by thus act of you.
> See:--You prove that the seai stamp of Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji is there at Mundawani M5, but you forget that this Granth is not accepted by Sikh Panth and Gur-gaddi was not bestowed to this Granth. It consists only 505 pages and is at Kartarpur with the heirs of Dhirmalliye.
> You should go and read the Granth written by Bhai Mani Singh ji /Baba Deep singh ji. You will get your answer over there.
> ...



Ajmer Singh ji,

I am losing the will to live at the moment.

Please can I ask everyone who participates to make their statments backed up by either links to their sources, or to books and page numbers. There are people following this debate who have no idea what is going on.

PLEASE!!!!


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

Veer Randeep Singh ji
It is upto you and your decision. I am very much clear. I am a devoted Sikh not a historian to keep all the records with me and have faith in my religion as every body knows that Guru Naanak ji says,"Kich kahiye kich suniye Naanak" So i need not to comment any more. Only the SPN will take the decision.
 I have truthfully stated what i know. If you don't agree, its not my fault, The Beerh written by Guru Arjan Dev ji is present at Kartarpur Saahab, you yourself can check the Seal stamp and number of pages consisted.
Regards. Gur fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Randeep Singh ji
> It is upto you and your decision. I am very much clear. I am a devoted Sikh not a historian to keep all the records with me and have faith in my religion as every body knows that Guru Naanak ji says,"Kich kahiye kich suniye Naanak" So i need not to comment any more. Only the SPN will take the decision.
> I have truthfully stated what i know. If you don't agree, its not my fault, The Beerh written by Guru Arjan Dev ji is present at Kartarpur Saahab, you yourself can check the Seal stamp and number of pages consisted.
> Regards. Gur fateh !!
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



You must appreciate, we have thousands upon thousands of people reading this forum, therefore it is our collective duty to post as much information for people to follow as possible.

It is no good just posting statements, because many people may not know the background to the statement.

Thanks


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

Veerji, in that case you should ban all new members to join this forum other than scholars and historians. What so ever we have sudied in our life, is that not sufficient to quote? whether only proves of records are accepted not the statements in which useful knowledge is given. If this is the trend let these scholars argue, better we leave the forum. 
Somebody has rightly said,"Nakkarkhane main tooti ki awaz kaun sunega."
Gur fateh and chardi kalaa to all.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veerji, in that case you should ban all new members to join this forum other than scholars and historians. What so ever we have sudied in our life, is that not sufficient to quote? whether only proves of records are accepted not the statements in which useful knowledge is given. If this is the trend let these scholars argue, better we leave the forum.
> Somebody has rightly said,"Nakkarkhane main tooti ki awaz kaun sunega."
> Gur fateh and chardi kalaa to all.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



I am sorry you feel like that, but when you make a statement like....




> I have read that a committee was formed under supervision of Sikh philosophers like Bhai Veer Singh ji and it approved , submitted it's report after visiting Kartar pur Sahab.



I would like to know more. That is not unreasonable. You obviously have some knowledge and are not a newcomer.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Gur Fateh.
> As a Pandit or precher knows to web the art of words, you are very clever.You write that you do not read Raag-mala at your place but to keep other's sentiments not hurt, you read at Gurudwara or at Samagams. You fool yourself by thus act of you.
> See:--You prove that the seai stamp of Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji is there at Mundawani M5, but you forget that this Granth is not accepted by Sikh Panth and Gur-gaddi was not bestowed to this Granth. It consists only 505 pages and is at Kartarpur with the heirs of Dhirmalliye.
> You should go and read the Granth written by Bhai Mani Singh ji /Baba Deep singh ji. You will get your answer over there.
> ...



Guru Piayario Jios,
Ajmer Singh Randhawa ji,
Gurfateh Ji............

MY my....please calm down ji and re-read my post. Whatever gave you the idea that i am so clever....that the SODHIS of Kartarpur gave me their copy of the Kartarpuri Bir to "parkash" in my home ??? I ADMIT..I have seen that Bir..BUT ONLY ONCE...and that also under the eagle eyes of the Custodian who sat with me while I took a look at the beginning/and the end.I was not allowed to TOUCH any page... No Photography was allowed. NOW however there is a Digitised Copy avialble to GENUINE SCHOLARS....and you may be able to viist that as you are in India while I will have to wait a while....

The SGGS i have Paraksh at my home..and also at the 150 Gurdwaras in malaysia/Singapore/Thailand/Indonesia...that i have visited and read...ALL have the Mundawwnni Mh 5 Stamp and Seal of Guru Arjun Ji Sahib....and the Slok Mh 5 Tera Kita Jato Nhain Concluding Slok. These are copies of the DAMDAMI BIR that is SAMPOORAN GURU of the Guru Khalsa Panth and which was Bestowed GURGADEE by Guru Gobind Singh ji at Naded in 1708.
I am SURE Every SGGS in the World that is paraksh..is the EXACT SAME COPY as the one I have....From what I can personally prove..THATS the exact same SGGS i also saw and read at Various TAKHATS, including Harmandir Sahib, Akal Takhat and hundreds of Gurswaras in Punjab/India also....
SIKH PANTH has ONLY ONE SAMPOORAN GURU..and that is SGGS which has the Mundawnni SEAL of MH 5.
EVEN when Guru Gobind Singh Ji REWROTE the entire AAD GRANTH via scribe Baba Mani Singh and made copies via Baba deep Singh Shaheed at DAMDAM SAHIB to add Bnis of Guru teg Bahadur Ji Sahib.......*Guru Ji KEPT INTACT the CONCLUDING SEAL/STAMP OF Mundawnni MH 5.* Guru Ji DID NOT SHIFT the Concluding SEAL form its FINAL PLACE...THAT is the Biggest PROOF that SGGS ENDS at Mundawnni SEAL. ( Its Akin to an "Authorised person" who has the AUTHORITY to "OPEN" a KHAZANNAH warehouse...with his KEY, remove the LOCK..place some more valuables inside..and then RE-LOCK the LOCK in the SAME PLACE !! Guur Gobind Singh Ji Had the AUTHORITY..to RE-WRITE...RE-ARRANGE..the Gurbani in the AAD GRANTH...and He used it...to ADD GURBANI OF GURU TEG BAHADUR JI....and then GURU GOBIND SINGH JI placed back the SEAL of the ORIGINAL WRITER (Guru Arjun Ji sahib) at its ORIGINAL PLACE..and resealed the SGGS.
Raagmala is NOT Gurbani and thats that. It says so in the Sikh Rehat maryada of Akal Takhat. Any one can read or not read..only injunction is NOT to Print a SGGS MINUS it.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

Veer Randeep Singh ji, no doubt by your statement i was hurt, I may not be having the records, may be due to my foolishness or whatever you say but you are a learnered person and having good knowledge of the subject. I request you to please be polite and guide the ignorants like me to gain knowledge from  brilliant minded people like you.
Veer ji I again say that you would be certainly aware that the committee was formed at Amritsar and was sent to Kartarpur Sahab to check the authenticity by looking seal, stamp and date etc. Bhai Veer Singh ji was also a member. If i go to search the records, i shall have to visit many places and i won't be able to answer at earliest. This committee submitted its report than only Panth agreed to recite Raagmala. I am sure my assertions are not wrong. I have studied full report. 
If a person like me is aware of that, how could you not be of that important subject be unaware. That is strange.
If i write to SGPC they even won't provide me the records easily. In future sometime i must send you the details after visiting Sikh reference library etc.
I apologize if hurt your sentiments in ignorance.
Gur fateh.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

Veerji, I agree with you that Guru Gobind Singh ji had the authority to re-arrange and re-write Guru Granth Sahab ji and he certainly did it.
 You write that Seal and stamp at Mundawani M5 has the seal in every copy, i generally read the beerh/s printed by DSGPC, i have never seen any but as you write that ...only injunction to print a Guru Granth Sahab ji minus it.
Guru Granth Sahab ji is our Guru, Hazar-nazar,jahra-jahoor, Kaljug de bohith, Naam de bhandar, I bow my head in respect and i challange those who merely think it as a book.
Wheras RehatMaryada of Akal Takhat is concerned i shall check it and than write to you. You are also requested to send a photocopy of the last page where the seal is, to compare with copies printed here.
Thanks
Gur fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 9, 2009)

randip

It is good to ask reference but the rule applies to both sides.

The whole world knows that ragmaala is there in SGGS ji. What other reference you want?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

Ajmer Singh ji..
Gurfateh.

No need to send any photocopies...jios...just turn to Page 1429 and see the SEAL of Guru arjun Ji sahib.
Mundawwnni Mahalla Panjavaan...Thaal wich teen wastoo paiyeoh, Sat Santokh Vicharo....AND CONCLUDING  THANKSGIVING SLOK also by  Mahlla Panjavaan  Tera Kita jatoh Nahin....( Please note that ALL granhts begin with MANGLACHARAN to ISHT..and CONCLUDE WITH THANKSGIVING by the writers whereby the writer THANKS his ISHT for gracefully allwoing the Granth/Task etc to be completed. The SGGS follows this tradition.NANAK began this GRANTH SGGS and NANAK penned the Thanksgiving Slok. PERFECT. SAMPOORAN GURU. NO LOOSE ENDS..NO DOUBTS..NO DUALITY...NO "pen names"..no double guessing as to id of authors... Perfect CONTINUITY..ONE-NESS.. ONE NANAK AUTHOR...through out the SGGS... SAMPOORNTA. period.

The Kartarpuri AAD Granth has this SEAL in the exact same place...BEFORE the Raagmaala..and MANY Many other so called banis...shahi dee vidhee..how to make ink etc etc .. so take your pick...shoudl we  paath da bhog at shiahi kee vidhi ?? or at likh dar MUHAMMADAH...wahtever...
AYTHING PLACED after the SEAL is...as if somebody leaves a parcel at YOUR DOOR...any body can leave anything at the DOOR...but we are only responsible for what we have INSIDE our LOCKED DOOR !!..and NOW..some mischief makers are evne trying to say..the "NEIGHBOUR's SHANTY" is also PART of the SGGS PALACE...and trying to BIND the two together...into ONE !! The PALACE has STRONG WALLS and the Best SEAL....unbreakable..NO ENTRY to any PRETENDERS....whatever names they carry or try to be kavis shyams raams kabio baachs whatever...SGGS STANDS ALONE AS NANAK-GOBIND SINGH JI KIRT and Sampooran GURU.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> randip
> 
> It is good to ask reference but the rule applies to both sides.
> 
> The whole world knows that ragmaala is there in SGGS ji. What other reference you want?



Back up your statements with evidence. You made the statements, you provide the evidence. I don't have views on Kala Afghana either way, but you clearly do.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Randeep Singh ji, no doubt by your statement i was hurt, I may not be having the records, may be due to my foolishness or whatever you say but you are a learnered person and having good knowledge of the subject. I request you to please be polite and guide the ignorants like me to gain knowledge from  brilliant minded people like you.
> 
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



Please do not be hurt. Unfortunately, as Punjabi's we are quick to anger and be hurt. Me included 

You clearly are not ignorant and posses some knowledge. All I want is for you to share that with the forum.

Thanks


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 9, 2009)

Gyani ji gur fateh !!
 You mean that Salok M5 is the seal because i have recited and complete the Akhand Paath and Sahaj Paath many times. You will wonder that i have been blessed by the grace of Guru Naanak Dev ji to complete the Akhand Paath in one sitting 7 years ago.I didn't want to disclose it but it has become necessary to mention because some strange things are coming before me. 
I have said that i have studied the report, Syahi di vidhi or preparation of the ink used and likh dar Mohummad etc. can not be considered Gurbaani. you have rightly said that oneness in Naanak is there and that is wonderful because Bhatt says,"Kawan kahat Guru hai mua" ....say alike King is dead king never dies.Here it is like incarnation of Guru like Tibetan's Dalai Lama announces his predator before he dies, his incarnation.
nyway I am thankful to you for a giving me good knowledge. There is no end to this arguement of Raagmala so no need further to argue.Let the things goes on as usual. 
Thanks Gur Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh randhawa.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 14, 2009)

Inder,

Open challenge to live debate on Dasam Granth. You said you have been in USA for more than 30 years. I am not even close to being 30 years old. Take advantage of your experience and have a debate to sort this issue. You are well established and have the cash, why don't you just come to Toronto for live debate and prove that Dasam Granth is work of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji and not of poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

PERSONAL COMMENT REMOVED The best way will be go into the transcendent meditation like Baba Nanad Singh ji and call for Guru Gobind Singh ji  toanswer your question.
S.Inder Singh sent some photocopies of front page of Dasam Granth and a letter of Bhai Mani Singh ji,(You should be aware of him or need to be proved him also), in which Bhai sahab ji clearly writes about Dasam Granth which given a nick name 'CHOTA GRANTH'and it was very dear to Guru Gobind Singh ji. It was finally composed during Guru Ji's life time in 1698. 
You are going to argue unnecessarily on this topic but it is not your fault. Anti panthic activities of you and your friends like Kala Afgana even after ex-communication always create problems with the true Sikhs and makes them a character of humiliation.
Only argument should be whether it should be placed beside Guru Granth Sahab ji and given the same status or not which is impossible as we Sikhs don't want two Gurus. Had there been any necessity Guru Sahab would have given Guru Gaddi to this Granth also but being wise he knew that this Granth was written by him only whereas in Guru Granth Sahab ji , the Baani of previous Gurus is written and composed so he wisely added the Baani of his father and then bestowed it Guru(GURU MANYO GRANTH)
Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 14, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> First of all i feel ashamed of you that you call yourself ,"The Khalsa fauj." You want the authenticity to prove that whether Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji or not. The best way will be go into the transcendent meditation like Baba Nanad Singh ji and call for Guru Gobind Singh ji toanswer your question.
> S.Inder Singh sent some photocopies of front page of Dasam Granth and a letter of Bhai Mani Singh ji,(You should be aware of him or need to be proved him also), in which Bhai sahab ji clearly writes about Dasam Granth which given a nick name 'CHOTA GRANTH'and it was very dear to Guru Gobind Singh ji. It was finally composed during Guru Ji's life time in 1698.
> You are going to argue unnecessarily on this topic but it is not your fault. Anti panthic activities of you and your friends like Kala Afgana even after ex-communication always create problems with the true Sikhs and makes them a character of humiliation.
> Only argument should be whether it should be placed beside Guru Granth Sahab ji and given the same status or not which is impossible as we Sikhs don't want two Gurus. Had there been any necessity Guru Sahab would have given Guru Gaddi to this Granth also but being wise he knew that this Granth was written by him only whereas in Guru Granth Sahab ji , the Baani of previous Gurus is written and composed so he wisely added the Baani of his father and then bestowed it Guru(GURU MANYO GRANTH)
> ...


 
Yea? You sure about those things? How do you know I didn't go into meditative state and got darshan of Guru Ji? How do you know? Have you been living with me?
Like I said before, I don't want to waste time discussing with you here. If you got game, bring it to live debate.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

personal comments deleted.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 14, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> If you had been blessed by Guru ji, your tone would have been different so don't try to impress by false statements. First go and become a dedicated Guru Sikh and then only argue.


 
I am a Sikh of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You can bring your Guru which is Dasam Granth, to live debate. We can read some chariters to the sangat. Like I said, no need for personal attacks; just bring you game to debate if you or your sant baba got game.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

My Guru is Guru Granth sahib Ji the only one but i read Baani of dasam granth also in Nitnem daily and Bacitar naatak, if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 14, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> My Guru is Guru Granth sahib Ji the only one but i read Baani of dasam granth also in Nitnem daily and Bacitar naatak, if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also.


 
Hemkunt is what it is, hemkunt. A creation based on Dasam Granth. We can talk about Hemkunt at live debate too. Not a problem.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

What debate, debate until you do not recognize the authenticity of Hemkunt.You call it a creation based on Dasam Granth but Bhai Havaldar Mohan Singh ji who searched this place was a fool and the rest of the Sikhs who visit there just go to enjoy picnic.PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVEDGuru ji  had no time to visit Hemkunt in this life but he narrated the previous life, (Now challenge incarnation also) gave hints as 'sapat sring sobhi hai jahan tan ham adhik tapasya saadhi Mahakaal kalkaa araadhi ' 
Who else could write these phrases other than Guru ji himself. PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED
Guru fateh !!


PLEASE DISCUSS THE ISSUE AND NOT THE PEOPLE! fINAL WARNING!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2009)

Isnt it a wonder that the name of Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Ji Kala Afghana gets THROWN  IN to any and ALL postings/threads..by those who OPPOSE his Views, cannot defeat those views. NO BODY ELSE even Mentioned him...WHY the obsession with a socalled "excommunicated" (anti Gurmat action) person who CANNOT answer these allegations as he is NOT a member of any forums etc...
Reminds me of HARI SINGH NALWA...that Super Duper GENERAL of the Khalsa Fauj that DEFEATED the Pathans and Afghans SO BADLY..that his Name entered their Language..and their Mothers till TODAY..frighten their children by saying..HAROOA AIYO,,Harrooa aiyoh..go to sleep..Harooa aiyoh.
Hari Singh nalwa died more than 150 Years ago..his NAME still TERRIFIES the Afghans/pathans...HOW long will it take these people to forget/stop being afraid of kala afghana !!! Just Go through ANY posting on Gurmat Learning Zone, Sikhs Diaspora, Sikh Awareness, SPN etc etc etc...and you will find the GHOST OF KA frightening the living daylights of these singh1,singh2, singh3,singh4,singh5,singh, 1singh, 2singh, 3singh,4singh..Lsingh, Isingh,Five Singh,etc etc. KA is an OLD MAN..may soon die..but it looks like he will LIVE ON..perhaps like "Harroa aiyoh"  Kala aiyoh... for another 150 Years..DAAMMN FRIGHTENING THOUGHT.he he he


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

Gyani ji, Guru fateh !! I wonder an intellectual person like you is giving us a frightning thought of Kala Afgana. No, Singh ji, we aren't afraid of him or his ghost.This is in reference to all those excommunicated persons who are punished for their anti-panthic activities. Some other friends of them when stand to oppose the decision or raise a finger, favors them then it become necessary to refer. such person/s.
Hari Singh Nalwa was a great General of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and it was Ranjit singh who presented himself before Akal Takhat and accepted the punishment of whips.
Could Kala Afgana or his so-called friends dare to behave in that manner and accept the decision of Akal Takhat?
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Guru fateh !! I wonder an intellectual person like you is giving us a frightning thought of Kala Afgana. No, Singh ji, we aren't afraid of him or his ghost.This is in reference to all those excommunicated persons who are punished for their anti-panthic activities. Some other friends of them when stand to oppose the decision or raise a finger, favors them then it become necessary to refer. such person/s.
> Hari Singh Nalwa was a great General of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and it was Ranjit singh who presented himself before Akal Takhat and accepted the punishment of whips.
> Could Kala Afgana or his so-called friends dare to behave in that manner and accept the decision of Akal Takhat?
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



Guru Piayre Ajmer singh ji,
Gurfateh.

YES...but you forgot to say that the JathedarAkal Takhat  who Publicly Whipped the Maharaja was Akali Phoola Singh who was an INDEPENDENT Jathedar who had a JATHA as big as a FAUJ under his direct Command.....

WHEREAS..the PRESENT "Jathedars" are paid granthis of SGPC, EMPLOYED under the SGPC ACT of 1925, Have NOT a single armed man under their Command...and can BE and HAVE BEEN SACKED within 24 HOURS by their POLITICAL MASTERS.
They Dare not even Call Badal to come appear before them...and their appointment is in badals POCKET.
Past Jathedars SACKED in 24 hours...Ranjit singh Ghataura, Pooran Singh luv Kush..Joginder singh Vedanti..or otherwise UNCEREMONIOUSLY REMOVED... Are you seriously telling me that all these are EQUALS of Akali Phoola Singh who whipped Maharaja ranjit Singh ?? Remember a Jathedar who LIED on Doordarshan about the Harmandar sahib being ALL Right after attack Blue Star...Can such whip anyone ?? YES..old men and individuals who have no power...BUT not people like Badal...


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

Gyani ji,Guru Fateh !!
I was really expecting such a good answer. I appreciate you for telling the sad truth that these Jathedars are employees. Certainly we should pressurize the SGPC and other Sikh governing bodies to interfere in it. The status to Jathedars be given like Akali Phoola Singh ji and presently Pope of vatican.
It is our fault that Baadal is still ruling Punjab. He has crossed all the limits of saturation, has collected such a wealth beyond limit. What shall he do with that? I wonder.He is not doing anything for Panth except weakning it day by day.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 14, 2009)

Veerji, Guru fateh !!
All those who argue to lengthen the issue of Dasam Granth, should you not quote the earlier research like one attached haerwith. Even than if they discuss are not they uttering like parrots every alternative day. Why so.? What proves they want? were the eminent members of committee set up in 1915 by Singh sabha which gave its final verdict left any doubt? Please stop discussing this issue now. Instead of it you should give a new thread to discuss and to improve our knowledge.
Thanks.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2009)

Guru Piayare
Ajmer Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

You are equally well informed and i am sure you have lots to share ref sehaj paath/gurbani meanings/way Gurbani has affected your life...how your life improved after taking Amrit, doing nitnem/ rehit etc etc. You are much older than me...so feel free to start any threads..i am sure to participate and we can help the youngsters learn so much..SGGS is such a VAST OCEAN..whomsoever dives in surely collects many PEARLS..share some of them with us...:welcome::welcome::welcome:


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veerji, Guru fateh !!
> All those who argue to lengthen the issue of Dasam Granth, should you not quote the earlier research like one attached haerwith. Even than if they discuss are not they uttering like parrots every alternative day. Why so.? What proves they want? were the eminent members of committee set up in 1915 by Singh sabha which gave its final verdict left any doubt? Please stop discussing this issue now. Instead of it you should give a new thread to discuss and to improve our knowledge.
> Thanks.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



Ajmer ji

I agree with you in your quote above and also with  Gyani ji in the previous post. There is a lot to say about Dasam Granth and it can be said on its own terms and in its own place. Unfortunately, as you point out, researched and dependable research is rarely used in the discussions and a parrot mentality takes over.

There are those who fight because fighting is the only thing that gives them satisfaction. We need to be serious about these questions. 

But it is funny - because last night before I went to bed I was thinking along the same lines as you. Why is it that the discussion of Kala Afghana's questions regarding Adi Granth  and the discussion of the authenticity of all or parts of Dasam Granth cannot at least sometimes be kept separate. They are really for the most part two entirely different issues with two entirely different bodies of research and scholarship to consider. Yes there is some overlap-- but those FEW aspects where the controversies overlap are constantly recycled and the discussions based on this OVERLAP are also recycled everywhere a person looks. This does nothing to nurture an atmosphere for people to learn, ask quesitons, get questions answered, and draw conclusions in a rational way. 

And it turns people off period. They just walk away. They give up.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 15, 2009)

Gyani ji, 
I a feel oblized, by so much affection, by such an intelligent person of Gurbaani de vidwan that i really admire you. No doubt Guru Sahab has blessed me by his grace to recite thy name and pass my life chanting his name but when i see people raising silly question which have been already answered almost in every century and every decade. Even than they question without looking into past. That provokes.
If Sant Singh ji Maskeen is no more someone will be sent to fill that gap by Akal Purakh but the messages, research and other valuable scripts whatever he has given to Panth, are accepted and approved by Panth and he has been honrd by 'Panth ratan'. So after two or three decades or more than that if some one again raises the questions, what would you feel. Whether Sant maskeen ji will become a failure of the past or shall be honrd as today, like Bhai Veer Singh ji.
The place of intellects shall never remain vacant. It is Guru who always sends someone to feed our psychic need.We should find the curious answer given in the past by the intellectuals of Sikh Panth instead of questioning like uttering a parrot.
That's what i have to say. We all are doing our duties to awaken the youths with their glorious past in the hope of a bright future and high spirit (chardi kalaa) of Panth.
Sangtan da daas,
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2009)

Guru Piayare Ajmer singh ji, aad ji..and others
Gurfateh.

MY TAKE on all this RE-HASHING..is WHY ?? why all the BOTHER.
It is well known that FALSEHOOD has no FEET..it Cannot LAST. TRUTH ALWAYS OUT.
GURU NANAK JI SAHIB HIMSELF tells us THIS about TRUTH..it never fades, loses colour, gets old, torn or out of date.
SO if..I say IF..a Bhag Singh Ambala came along and questioned the DSM Granth with ONE Book.....Bhai Gurbakhs Singh Kala Afghana came along and wrote TEN Books..many others also wrote not only BOOKS but also offered a REWARD of TEN LAKH Rupees to anyoen who cna prove that the writer of dsm Granth is Guur Gobind Singh Ji....SO WHAT ?? IF these people are all FRAUDS..telling lies..have no basis..what are we AFRAID OF ?? Why go to extrereme knee jerk reactions like excommunicate them, villify them, take a microscope and digg durt on their personal lives to discredit them....and form so called Human Rights Organsiations that DECIDE on DSm Granth ( Human Rights !! not Scripture Rights ??) set up Orgs and Coms and Nets on the Internet  etc etc to "prove" something that NEEDS NO PROOF ?? Why not let the FALSEHOOD FALL ON ITS OWN ??
WHY DISRUPT DIWANS in the August hazooree of SGGS to "shut up" speakers of Falsehood ?? WHEN literally THOUSANDS of SANT BABAS DAILY SPEAK GIANT UNTRUTHS, falsify our Gurus, Gurbani etc all over the world..WHY all thsi energy not spent to DISRUPT these DERAS...You Tube is full of these FAKE SAADHS...not a single Video to EXPOSE THEM ?? These snats have NOTHING to say about Gumatt..all about themsleves ONLY.
APRADHEE DUNNA NIVEH..all this super quick actiona dn shouting from the rooftops about the dsm garnth etc reveals that ALL is NOT WELL..DAAL wich kujh kaala zaroor hai..and that fear is DRIVING ALL THIS...SIKHS are being DIVIDED and made WEAK...
SO UNTIL the TRUTH COMES OUT..and it will eventually..agaisnt all odds..then ONLY will this controversy die down..until then it si FUTILE for you and me to sigh and sigh...Jaang Hind Punjab da honn laggah..Patshahi Faujaan dovehn bhareean nai....Similar situation...I just watched the Hsoheenna video on the latest Fiasco in a New York Gurdwara..the DSM Granth suporter Sant hari Singh and Ex  Jathedar Akla Takhat Prof darshan Singh Ji are BOTH SEATED and ready to DEBATE LIVE on DSM Granth which will eb RECORDED..what happens..the USUAL HULLARR BAZEE by the Pro dsm garnth GROUP DISRUPTS the Diwan with SHOUTING matches taking palce while the Gurdwara Parbhandaks are Speakign on Stage, the Sangat si SEATEd and SGGS is parkash...then Hari Singh comes on stage and says that the DSM granth issue is not to be discussed becasue of a Hukmnama by akla tkahat bannign such..THEN WHAT WAS he doing sitting at the table by the side of Prof darshan Singh Ji ?? Didnt he know of the 2003 Hukmanma which  by the way was superceded by another one INSTRUCTING the Defender s of DSM Granth to COUNTER antidsm propoganda.... and DEFEND it agaisnt those denegrating it. The Clear impression given in a Live vodeo recorded LIVE is that TRUTH was VICTORIOUS...
A Gursikh always DEFENDS the TRUTH...we must ALL go on defending the TRUTH. Falsehood will Fall by the wayside without any help from anybody...and best of all Falsehood cannot be defended successfully.... hence calls to shut up..stop debating...stop this..stop that...all this never worked before..will never work....because TRUTH MUST SURFACE and TRIUMPH .:happy::happy::happy:


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 15, 2009)

Gyani ji,
 There is not much left to speak on this issue which has no end. Aad ji if send you the copy of history and compilation of Dasam Granth by Dr. Trilochan Singh published in Sikh review in 1955. That will be enough to answer the critics.
These are the methods of cheap publicity to invite the intention of whole community on violating compositions. Naturally some will favor and some oppose. That's what Kaala Afgana and his friends have opted. I find nothing to answer those violators of conduct and regulations (Discipline/rahat) of Sikh religion. They certainly need to be punished. Thanks God  they are not from Muslim faith otherwise they could not see the next sun rise of their life.
Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2009)

*<<<<<<<<<<Thanks God  they are not from Muslim faith otherwise they could not see the next sun rise of their life.>>>>>>>>>>>>

**THIS can be misconstrued as a THREAT to LIFE. Not to be treated lightly.

Many such threats in fact have been issued by SIKHS...to other SIKHS.
SIKHISM is about Sarbatt da Bhalla and about FREEDOM OF SPEECH...RESPECT the others right to OPINION. No body has the power to JUDGE another SIKH's right to see another sun rise or sink.** Guru Ji will judge each and everyone of us...

2. There is no proof that any GURU JI ever forced his beleifs on anyone/thretened them with.."not able to see another sun rise"......or in any way behaved like the fundamentalists that treat humans as animals fit only to follow their  way or face death.

3. There is no proof as well that such death threats work....they DONT. and are counter productive. They show that some quarters are willing to let go of REASON and resort to VIOLENCE to Ram their "religious beleifs" down the throats of others..:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:


*


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 15, 2009)

Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
Neither i am blind fanatic  nor believer. What i see , i just say but i know the limits. This is in the pretext that Sikhs are not fanatics and fundamentalists like Muslims. If they had been, whatsoever is written could be proved right.
Please don' distract the thread by bifurcating the right path of devotion.Freedom of speech is there but by taking its cover we can't abuse others.Similarly i know one thing when Dasam patshah says ,"Raaj bina nahin dharam chale hai Dharam bina sab daley maley hai !!" What do you mean of it ?Daley-maley itself referes all this malpractice too. When there is not your raaj so there is not any religious discipline could be found among followers. Is not it the same that the unnecessary arguments doesn't end. In one or other pretext, you keep this matter alive. What do you want to prove this way? Are you also a supporter of Kala Afgana or from his team of violators ?
If so i won't have to say anything more.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2009)

Ajmer ji

Where I myself have gone wrong is in thinking that it is possible to iron out differences ABOUT DISCUSSION between and among reasonable people. I apologize to  Gyani ji for failing to see my part in helping a discussion go sour.

Even though I think that the controversies regarding both Kala Afghana and Dasam Granth go over the cliff in terms of lack of reason and the absence of plain good will, discussions should not be squelched. Sikhi is about discussion. Sikhi is not about SILENCING people who have a point of view. 

 Let me just repeat my main point -- "_Why is it that the discussion of Kala Afghana's questions regarding Adi Granth and the discussion of the authenticity of all or parts of Dasam Granth cannot at least sometimes be kept separate. They are really for the most part two entirely different issues with two entirely different bodies of research and scholarship to consider. Yes there is some overlap-- but those FEW aspects where the controversies overlap are constantly recycled and the discussions based on this OVERLAP are also recycled everywhere a person looks. This does nothing to nurture an atmosphere for people to learn, ask quesitons, get questions answered, and draw conclusions in a rational way."_


When a person disputes the authenticity of all or part of Dasam Granth -- that does not automatically make that individual a supporter of Kala Afghana. When a person even so much as mentions a point made by Kala Afghana or chooses to discuss it, that does not automatically make that person a subversive who is undermining Aad Granth or the 10th Nanak.

Again, apologies Gyani ji.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 15, 2009)

Aad ji, Guru fateh !!
 I agree what you say, I don't feel any enemity with gyani ji or any other member of forum. What i meant is going through all the mails it appeared if he is favoring the violators. It was because of his narration to the topic though i admire him and a fan of him but to question straight forwardly is not  disrespect to him.
Sometimes i can't understand the hint/comment hidden beneath the writing si i get confused.
I send my apology to great intellectual of Sikhism-Gyani ji, i didn't mean to hurt him but certainly i questioned him.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 15, 2009)

Aad ji, Guru Fateh !! 
I would like to start a new reasonable thread to all the intelligent members of this forum to discuss the 'CHAUTHA PAD'. Guru Arjan Dev Ji says in  'SUKHMANI SAHIB' as, "Kar kirpa jis aapne naam laaey !! Naanak chauthe pad main se jan gat paeen !!
 So please define this chautha pad and tell how can one avail this in his life. As i don't see any Brahmgyani  around me now-a -days.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Aad ji, Guru fateh !!
> I agree what you say, I don't feel any enemity with gyani ji or any other member of forum. What i meant is going through all the mails it appeared if he is favoring the violators. It was because of his narration to the topic though i admire him and a fan of him but to question straight forwardly is not  disrespect to him.
> Sometimes i can't understand the hint/comment hidden beneath the writing si i get confused.
> I send my apology to great intellectual of Sikhism-Gyani ji, i didn't mean to hurt him but certainly i questioned him.
> ...



Ajmer ji - It is NOT that Gyani is favoring "violators." He is favoring an open dialog -- which is the only way to get all the information out and to critique that which needs to be criticised with facts reason anc common sense.  I have myself been in hot water for the same reason on other threads. By squelching dialog nothing is gained. That is how oppressive governments and religions operate, and that is not Sikhi. 

Please go ahead and start the new thread. If you need any assistance send me a pm.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 15, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> My Guru is Guru Granth sahib Ji the only one but i read Baani of dasam granth also in Nitnem daily and Bacitar naatak, if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also.


 

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I am confused by your statement,"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha *authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"*


Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is SGGS.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 15, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Guru fateh !! I wonder an intellectual person like you is giving us a frightning thought of Kala Afgana. No, Singh ji, we aren't afraid of him or his ghost.This is in reference to all those *excommunicated persons who are punished for their anti-panthic activities.* Some other friends of them when stand to oppose the decision or raise a finger, favors them then it become necessary to refer. such person/s.
> Hari Singh Nalwa was a great General of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and it was Ranjit singh who presented himself before Akal Takhat and accepted the punishment of whips.
> Could Kala Afgana or his so-called friends dare to behave in that manner and accept the decision of Akal Takhat?
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Now, you should be able to respond to all the questions about Ex-communication as posted by me in the start of this thread. I, myself and other members asked the same quesitons to Inder Singh ji who has gotten quiet all of a sudden, so I need your help and your Gurmat wisdom to understand all about ex-communication from the Gurmat viewpoint.

Hoping to learn from you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
> Neither i am blind fanatic  nor believer. What i see , i just say but i know the limits. This is in the pretext that Sikhs are not fanatics and fundamentalists like Muslims. If they had been, whatsoever is written could be proved right.
> Please don' distract the thread by bifurcating the right path of devotion.Freedom of speech is there but by taking its cover we can't abuse others.Similarly i know one thing when Dasam patshah says ,"Raaj bina nahin dharam chale hai Dharam bina sab daley maley hai !!" What do you mean of it ?Daley-maley itself referes all this malpractice too. When there is not your raaj so there is not any religious discipline could be found among followers. Is not it the same that the unnecessary arguments doesn't end. In one or other pretext, you keep this matter alive. What do you want to prove this way? Are you also a supporter of Kala Afgana or from his team of violators ?
> If so i won't have to say anything more.
> ...



Guur Piayare Veer Ajmer Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

Its NOT true to say the issues have no end. They all have an END..and thats where the buck stops...at the TRUTH. So until that stage is reached..there will continue to be those who seek the TRUTH. Each and everyone has his own way to the TRUTH..and we have no right to judge where the person is...who actually knows who is right and up to where. ALL this began long ago...DECADES have passed...no end in sight...because the TRUTH is still OUT THERE....and the TRUTH MUST reach ALL...IT took the "enemy" to spread Falsehood..at least 200 years.. with FAKE history ( Bhai bala Janamsakhi.....ANONYMOUSLY under Gurbilas pat Chhevin.....addition of false sakhis, miracles, fake history....Fake  banis  from Guru Angad jis time and even RIGHT UNDER GURU ARJUN JIS Nose (Bhai banno). Bhai banno wasnt AFRAID of scrilege..wasnt afraid Guru Ji woudl be angry ?? IF Bhai banno could attempt it in spite of the Fact that Guru Ji is still alive...others wrote KACHEE BANI..prompting Guru Amardass ji to WARN SIKHS...
Fake Laetters of Bhai mani Singh..Fake rehitnamahs, Hukmanmahs, etc etc and all...has been going on for CENTURIES.... One of the earliest Translations into Modern punjabi of GBP6 was done by my Teacher GYANI INDER SINGH GILL of Malaysia....and then another one by Joginder Singh Vedanti.( ALSO IN MALAYSIA at the SAME GUrdwara that Gyani inder singh wrote his translation) .and RECOMMENDED by the Akal takhat jathedar for KATHA IN ALL GURDWARAS !! Just READ the TRUTH about this BOOK..and WHY and WHEN it was FORCED to be WITHDRAWN...and then subsequerntly REISSUED after the MESSENGER who warned us about it was EXCOMMUNICATED and put OUT of the WAY. IS that How we work ?? I DIDNT read it...my Teacher didnt read it...60 years have passed...BUT the TRUTH CANNOT BE DENIED..its THERE !!! IT TOOK 60 YEARS for the TRUTH to surface !!! and it took a YEAR to SHOOT the MESSENGER.

IF one wants to read one sided opinions"...then one can go visit sites like "panthic weekly"..and various others named after our August Dasm patshahi, Dasam Pita. There you will find ONLY ONE POINT OF VIEW...no others allowed/permitted. There you will also find that the EX-Jathedar of Akal Takhat being addressed as "Darshan Ragi"..others being addressed as "so and so SINH"...etc. WHY this abuse..simply becasue these people DONT SUBSCRIBE to their view !! Who has the RIGHT to WITHDRAW the Name SINGH given by the PANJ PIYARE ?? Only people who are FALSE will resort to NAME CALLING.
SHOW me even One Instance from GURBANI where GURU JI/Bhagt Ji etc resort to Name Calling...to put their points across...has Babar been called Babru ?? Akbaru ? Did Guru Ji call Jehangir ....Jahangiru ?? WE SIKHS DO that when we dont like the person !!! WHY cant we be like GURU JI..whose SIKHS we claim we are ?? However i didnt find any oen person even complaining that Jathedar Darshan Singh ji is beign called darshan ragi ?? IS that HOW we respect an EX Jathedar of the SAME AKAL TAKHAT thta we cry and shout about ?? Darshan Singh was NOT SACKED like many others..He RESIGNED when he found that he couldnt FUNCTION as AKALI PHOOLA SINGH !! Rather than become a Lap dog chamcha he RESIGNED. And he carries on Bravely doing what he thinks is RIGHT...DEBATE HIM,,DEFEAT HIM wit LOGIC...BOOKS..Articles..but name calling means those opposing him have LOST LOGIC/REASON..and only know how to SHOUT...OR Bring in the Kala afghana HAOOAH !!! same Tactic as Haria Harooa ??? (Hari singh nalwa). YOU TOO keep on asking posters .."Ae you KA follower ?? are You Kala afghnaist ?? WHY ?? WHY bring in KA name when he is NOT even mentioned by any poster  ?? Bhag Singh Ambala said the exact same things...but his time wasnt right..he was too early...NOW the INTERNET has made it possible to REACH the WORLD in seconds..JHOOTH..Falsehood is exposed withn seconds...people all over can read the TRUTH..in www.Rozana spokesman.com...see the TRUTH in You tube videos..Google videos...people cna ask questions..intelligently enquire...the time for BLIND FOLLOWING the BLIND is past...NOW even the BLIND can see due to Computer Power !!! Thats why the BLIND resort to CURSING..excommunicating, threatening..scream and shout..shut up..stop it..no more discussion..end it.. Please GIVE soem CREDIT to SIKHS..they have an INTELLIGENT MIND...AAKllen sahib seveah...they KNOW the TRUTH when they see it..No amount of fakes can cover the TRUTH...the time is Mitee DHUND Jagg Channana HOIYAH..AGAIN after 500 YEARS...

IF you dotn like this..you can go to sites like Singhsabha Canada International..sikhMarg etc etc...THEY Have the OPPOSITE VIEWPOINT...BUT they DONT ABUSE and they DONT discourage DEBATE/DISCUSSIONS. Anyone can send in articles...and they will Print them..BUT the oppsition DONT send in becasue they know the articles will be WELL and ABLY REPLIED to !!

NO one is alwasy right..no one is alwasy wrong..Darshan Singh Ragi may have sung banis form dsm granth many years ago..but he has changed his mind..so putting up videos of him singing such in orert o show that he is unreliable..mind changer actually backfire...becasue it shows that he has the COURAGE to CHANGE...unlike others who keep on  syaing aprrampra..tradition..cannot do that..its always that way..etc. Darshan Singh may be WRONG on a hundred and one things...KA may be a crook, fraud, thief..and wrong on a thousand counts...BUT HE HAS RIGHT OF OPINION...and he must be Proved WRONG based on SGGS, gurbani, Logic, Gurmatt..and deciision must be made by the SIKHS..not ON THEIR BEHALF !! and told SHUT UP OR ELSE ???

SIKH PHILOSOPHY SPN is a site that attempts to be Fair, open to all, reasonable discussions, opinions of all are allowed, and has reached a stage where it is  a valuable RESOURCE on Sikhi/Gurmatt. This site is visited and read by numbers beyond imagination...it cannot be compromised..or allowed to portray just ONE SIDE. We publish BOTH sides and allow the Intelligent readers to decide on their own...As LONG as some one continues to CLICK on and Visit the various THREADS...they will continue to attract. Each one is welcome to begin New Threads..new thoughts...to BALANCE out everything....and make SPN an even more enjoyable place..a more richer resource...

I welcome your initiative on Chauth pad...its  a new and good thread..Please give your views and experiences..and others will follow...BUT please remember..SPN's Golden Rule..Each opinion is  a VALUED ONE.  Thnak you and keep in Chardeekalla laways...we are all GURSIKHS of the same Pita - Guru nanak-Guru GobindSingh-Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## spnadmin (Jun 16, 2009)

Because it is summer break, and the week is shorter now,  I feel freer now to search, read and think. So after work I began to surf the Internet for hard scholarship on Dasam Granth -- abiding by forum leader Randip Singh's call to avoid the propaganda sites. In my travels I found this remark and it sums up what I believe needs to guide any discussion that is controversial by its own nature.

_"The ultimate test of a civilised society according to the  Sikh doctrine of Anekta meh ekta (Unity in variety) is its capacity for diversity. It is to accept the richness of God’s creation in all its variety. This was the concept which evolved the final and distinct form of the __Khalsa Panth of Guru Nanak/Gobind tradition. Through its own unique identity, the __Khalsa Panth, the Order of the Sikhs of the Guru (correct translation discussed below), has continued to assert the rights of individuals, communities and cultures to be different by free choice without transgressing the rights of others. Nay, Guru Tegh Bahadhur, the Ninth Master, went so far as to give his own life for others, the Hindus of India in that case, so that their religious and cultural identity could be preserved. This was a unique sacrifice by the head of one religion to protect another’s way of life."_ Gurmukh Singh at A Question of Identity

This "unique identity" of Sikhs rises first and foremost from our adherence to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Is it not reasonable for those of us who feel very grounded in and supported by this eternal Guru to also be confident enough to express our views freely and honor the same freedom for others? 

So it is hard for me to understand, given these words, why there would be only 2 sides to an argument. Kala Afghana had specific questions regarding the authorship of the Dasam Granth. These can all be listed, read, absorbed in memory and then put to one side as one wishes. There are many other individuals who have other equally specific questions regarding the authorship of the Dasam Granth. Yet they are *not* supporters of Kala Afghana. Who can explain to me why this happens so ofte? It remains a mystery why lumping all critics in one basket - and then denouncing them as all the dupes of Kala Aghana - continues on and on.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

AAD JI..
are YOU a Kala Afghanist ?? I am not joking ...
imho..you are well on the way to being labeled one....dont say i didnt warn YOU....anyone..i mean ANYONE..who looks the slightest like asking/going to ask...a question related to dsm granth....becomes fair game for this label..on the Internet.in Seminars/Media/You Tube videos... these days THAT Label is the One most in use...similar to the COMMUNIST Label in Mc Carthy days.
IF you go further..and perhaps write  a book...then its alls fair in love and war...anything goes.
Looks like we are being asked to have BLIND BELIEF....

*No one seems to love the Guru provided solution...
ROS NA KEEJEH...UTTAR DEEJEH...
DONT BE ANNOYED...PROVIDE THE ANSWERS !!!*

Jarnail Singh

PS. Why is asking/going to ask..underlined ? Some take them to MEAN the SAME !!!  BEWARE !!

Anecdotal evidence.

Once a Man was arraigned before  aMagistrate..Charged with Beating his wife.
Your Honour..the man pleaded..I DID NOT BEAT MY WIFE..I was "GOING TO (beat my wife).
What RUBBISH..replied the Leraned Judge...thats beating about the bush..there is NO DIFFERENCE. Fined 500 Pounds. Next Case.

Twenty minutes later the Same Man was dragged into the Court. He refuses to pay the Fine Your Honour..the Court Clerk explained.

Your Honour..Thats a LIE...I WAS "GOING TO" (pay the fine)..and thats it.
Since Your Honour just decided that *BEATING* and *GOING TO beat* are the Same..I submit that Going to and Paying the fine are the Same thing. SO I have *"Paid"  * for "*Beating"* my wife.

The Judge said *Fine Paid*..case completed. NEXT.:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome:


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

Veer Tejwant Singh ji, gueu fateh !!
You yourself is a wise person and you know that their couldn't be any reference of Hemkunt in Guru Granth Sahab ji, Than why do you ask me this silly question. This has come out and searched on behalf Bachitar Naatak(Dasam Granth).
My version was ,"clould there be anyother person other than Guru Gobind Singh ji to predict the signs of surrounding peaks and lake where Guru ji meditated in Satyug as Dusht Daman, without visiting there? Which clearly indicates that this Bachitar Natak was written by Guru ji himself.
You please see a report published by a great historian Dr. Trilochan Singh in Sikh review in 1955, which leaves no doubt that whole Dasam Granth was written by Guruji Himself. The names ofthe poets Ram, Shyam,Gobind, Govind etc. were also Guruji's nicknames. It has been certified in that report.
Moreover This discussion is not fruiteful as we have no theological authority other than exchanging our thoughts and we are not allowed to discuss Dasam Granth by Akal Takhat.
Certainly Baadal has lowered the staus of Jathedar of Akal Takhat but Baadal has no power to degrade the status of Akal takhat which is always supreme for devoted Sikhs.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

AAD JI,
Gurfateh.

Could you please MOVE this section On *Chautha Padd *to a NEW Thread.( 2 posts only)
Its not part of KA redux thread.

Thanks Ji.:welcome:


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## spnadmin (Jun 16, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AAD JI,
> Gurfateh.
> 
> Could you please MOVE this section On *Chautha Padd *to a NEW Thread.( 2 posts only)
> ...



Gyani ji

Yes i will start a thread for Chautha Padd -- A lot happened over night I can see -- No problem :yes:


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## Randip Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

I have added my views on Dasam Granth Here:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25416-my-views-on-dasam-granth.html

Feel free to add comments.


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## spnadmin (Jun 16, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AAD JI..
> are YOU a Kala Afghanist ?? I am not joking ...
> 
> *No one seems to love the Guru provided solution...
> ...



Gyani ji

I have already been accused of being a kala afghanist on this forum, nearly a year ago, in a similar kind of discussion. I was accused because randip singh ji quoted me after I quoted something I found on Wikipedia written by someone who quoted kala afghana and BTW was a CRITIC of Kala Afghana. A QUOTE OF A QUOTE OF A QUOTE. That is how bad the "witch hunt" mentality can get. Repeat something that some said that was actually in support of the opposition, and the opposition brands you (FOR REPEATING WORDS) as a member of the devil's party. I spent the weekend in tears, having been called a heretic and dealing with people who could not even read what was there before them in black and white. How would I continue as a Sikh if this was the way it was going to be? How could i stay on this forum? My husband was livid  and so I had to also deal with his emotions because he had no context at all for all this emotionality. 

And you know it was a good thing. After that nothing worse could happen to me. I had been through the worse and made it through. All of that taught me this lesson. If you have unshakable belief in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the teachings of Guru Nanak, then you read anything, ask anything, quote anything, discuss anything, trade insights with anyone, eat a meal or drink coffee with Kala Afghana himself, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING 'PATIT' NOTHING HERETICAL NOTHING EVIL WILL HAPPEN TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE YOU KNOW. It is impossible. You will just have to listen to a little name-calling.

(the funny part was I had already decided that Kala Afghana might just be a pseudointellectual)

Well -- now I make it a point to read EVERYTHING I can get my hands on from all sides of the Dasam Granth controversies. There are more than 2 sides to this controversy, and some of the critics are not even distracted by Kala Afghana's ideas. And just to make my final point -- Kala Afghana has written about both the Aad Granth and the Dasam Granth. But somehow these discussions mash everything togther and then it is impossible to follow the thread of a thought. 

No I am not  a follower of Kala Afghana -- Yes I plan to continue to read both his supporters and his critics.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Veer Tejwant Singh ji, gueu fateh !!
> You yourself is a wise person and you know that their couldn't be any reference of Hemkunt in Guru Granth Sahab ji, Than why do you ask me this *silly question*.


I get bewildered by the Sikh scholars, historians or those who call themselves having knowledge of Sikhi, when they use immature and infantile words like *SILLY* as you have to show your disdain towards what I have asked. It shows that you are trying to prove that you are superior and happen to know more , hence your conclusion made my question *SILLY* in your thought process, which shows more about yourself than about my question.

Let's get to the facts. Following is your claim.



> Pardon my ignorance but I am confused by your statement,"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha *authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"*


And following is my question regarding your claim:

_*Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri *__*Guru Granth Sahib*__* Ji.
*_
Please show me in my post above where I asked you to give me the references from SGGS? I never did. Please read my question again and respond accordingly rather than with your infantile remarks.

I will discuss the other parts of your post after your response. In the meantime you can read my thoughts about Dasam Granth in the following excellent thread started by Randip Singh ji.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25416-my-views-on-dasam-granth.html


Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 16, 2009)

well said Tejwant Ji.

my view is.....NO question is ever "silly"..this bares the mind of the jawab dean wallah...as too "superior"..well versed and beyond reproach...too superior to come down to a low level..THANK WAHEGURU JI thta our GURUS were not of this mindset at all...they came down to every level...
A Similar answer given in New York was..OH this person is BELOW MY STANDARD for debating...
and when another person came forward..then the answer was..its not in accordance with Akal takaht !! Didnt this man know of the AT earlier when he was talking about "standards"...and he has self attached title of SANT...I wonder Sant of what ??
Normally small kids will say such things/remarks...stupid..silly..besamjh...moorakh..
When given a reference from Sidh Ghosht..as to ASK questiosn and provide answers is Guru nanak Jis WAY FORWARD...leads to being labelled  a Sidh ghost Sikh insinuating no knowledge about Gurmantar, Panj Piayars, Khandeh Batte dee pahul etc...not  a kind view at all.
IF given a choice imho..many of the questions asked in Sidh Ghost would be called SILLY ?? Becasue the Questioners are OLD MEN..long beards wise learned..and Guru nanak ji is just a "BALAK" before them...i suppose these wise men would just dismiss the Balak as silly....but they DIDNT..showing they were indeed really wise...not pseudo wise !!....
SPN has all kinds of readers/posters..some dotn know anything...others know "everything"...and many in between...lets continue to PROVIDE THE ANSWERS...all the time to all the posters/readers/viistors...:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome: so that NOONE Feels lsighted..or made unwelcome..or made to look silly.....simply becasue he/she asked aquestion..:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome:


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
 I wonder why you people always go in depth of the words, just to distract. See you called me a joker-Did i comment. No. I just laughed and went ahead. I remember the question by Tejwant singh ji was about Hemkunt though AGGs ji. How could i prove that? Could you-then come ahead and give him a suitable answer.
Certainly i am the foolest one. discussing between the intellectuals who are proud of their knowledge and try to humiliate others in the cover of Guru Granth Shaib ji and Sikhi. Guru Naanak Dev ji was himself Nirankaar and wass able to reach the peak of mountains, cross the oceans and move in deserts without any conveince or help. Guru Gorakh Nath or his Guru Machandar nath were wise able to judge this as no ordinary person could approach them and no 'thali' would have been served to Naanak if he had been an ordinary person like us.So they argued but with respect, not looking Naanak as a child.
And there is no question of superiority, if it had been i would have not become your admirer and a fan of you. Now just compare my views.
 "Fal neevian rukhan nu lagde." Gyaniji i regard you as you are a wise person but dare to say if go through your psychology , I too find you a very proudy and harsh person, suffering from superior complex.
Pardon me for streight forwardness.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 16, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> well said Tejwant Ji.
> 
> my view is.....NO question is ever "silly"..this bares the mind of the jawab dean wallah...as too "superior"..well versed and beyond reproach...too superior to come down to a low level..THANK WAHEGURU JI thta our GURUS were not of this mindset at all...they came down to every level...
> A Similar answer given in New York was..OH this person is BELOW MY STANDARD for debating...
> ...



Gyani ji You know there is no teacher without a student, and that teachers learn from students' questions. That is the greatest thing that you as a teacher are called to give. And you do that. Out of questions come more questions. Really without questions we are left with ignorance -- no new knowledge will be called forth without questions.  Humility shows when the teacher welcomes questions -- makes a teacher think and then think again.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 16, 2009)

Veer Tejwant singh Ji, Guru Fateh !!
 If i go through your article , which you mentioned, are the same my views. So what to discuss. Why Guru ji not added his Baani in AGGS is better known to him but as Randip Singh ji has described, seems suitable to guess. I too think the same way that the most Baani he naarated and written by court poets, was directly meant to arise the dead nation/qaum-Hindus. For the last 1000 years there had been no Hindu Raja or ruler in Hindustan. The tyrant moguls were molesting, disrespecting their women, lootin their wealth, cattles etc. and the people were helpless spectators, could do nothing to protect themselves.
So to awaken those dead men and to enter a new spirit of bravery into them, it was necessary to remind them the mythological stories of their Gods and ancestors to them in Bir ras. The outcome was as expected. The Sikh religion came in existence whose followers not only repulsed the attacks of Moguls but conquered their territory in Afghanistan and sent the message - to not dare an attack on Hindustan as we Sikhs can retaliate and have the capability to crush them in their own land.
Pakistan is still giving names of those Mogul invadors to its nuke weapons and missiles terrorize India but Sikhs aren't terrorized. That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
The blood in veins flows faster when one recite "Chandi di waar' and thus the Sikh becomes fearless of death and prepares himself to sacrifice for the nation/religion/qaum. 
Whereas AGGS delivers the message of peace, devotion, spirituality, oneness of timeless God Waheguru beyond my explaination. You people better know.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

HATEFUL COMMENTS REMOVED

Here is a video and sangat should note the facts.



YouTube - GURDWARA SIKH CULTURAL SOCIETY OF NEW YORK. 1 OF 6


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Please see ALL 6 Parts of the Video here

The Singh Sabha has posted one part of this same video here:

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Video/61

YouTube - GURDWARA SIKH CULTURAL SOCIETY OF NEW YORK. 1 OF 6

In the Background you can hear the DISRUPT SQUAD in action as usual...
Not in the least bothered by the SANGAT who is sitting patiently to LISTEN to the Talk, the Parbhandaks of the Gurdwara that arranged this Talk with full advance NOTICE, and made all the arrangements..and THE PRESENCE OF THE SGGS.
1. IF the argument is that this debate is against Hukmnama of AT..Fair enough...BUT then WHY accept the advance Notice and attend ?? Why not say this well before hand..no show..no debate..everyone is happy. Truth is hard to swallow...what they thought turned out different.....so have  a shouting match and force a closure...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Please watch all 6 Parts of this video here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV0n1AJ_liE&feature=related


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
> I wonder why you people always go in depth of the words, just to distract. See you called me a joker-Did i comment. No. I just laughed and went ahead. I remember the question by Tejwant singh ji was about Hemkunt though AGGs ji. How could i prove that? Could you-then come ahead and give him a suitable answer.
> *Certainly i am the foolest one*. discussing between the intellectuals who are proud of their knowledge and try to humiliate others in the cover of Guru Granth Shaib ji and Sikhi. Guru Naanak Dev ji was himself Nirankaar and wass able to reach the peak of mountains, cross the oceans and move in deserts without any conveince or help. Guru Gorakh Nath or his Guru Machandar nath were wise able to judge this as no ordinary person could approach them and no 'thali' would have been served to Naanak if he had been an ordinary person like us.So they argued but with respect, not looking Naanak as a child.
> And there is no question of superiority, if it had been i would have not become your admirer and a fan of you. Now just compare my views.
> ...



Ajmer Singh ji,
Gurfateh.

*Baseless accusation*. ( This is NOT called "Straightforwardness..by any standard..)

Language is WORDS...GURBANI is "WORDS"....Jaissee mein aweh KHASAM KI BANI..tessrrra kareen GYAN ve Lalo..says Guru nanak Ji Sahib..

( i am NOT saying what i wrote is gurbani..heaven forbid but you may think i am saying that..so i beg forgiveness up front..)

WORDS have DEPTH...they have NUANCES...they have CHARACTER..they have PERSONALITY....They have COLOUR...they have SO MUCH  MORE..than just......ALPHABETS strung together... IF they were just alphabets strung together..a monkey could sit at  a keyboard/typewriter.... and write a Shakespeare Play...or sit at  a Keyboard and produce a MOzart Symphony so easily...BUT it doesnt happen that way...
SO YES.."words" have to be read...thoroughly....GURBANI has to be READ THOROUGHLY...VICHARRED..THOROUGHLY....its when we read superficially...skim the surface and think we have reached OCEAN FLOOR DEPTH....that we fail ourselves..and others who read our "words"... IF the GURBANI were that simple..then we wouldnt ahve so many TEEKAS..teekakaars..kathwachaks..all struggling to EXPLAIN. THUS..YES i NEVER read anyones words superficially..I alwasy GO IN DEEP...and try to look at the writer....what he means..what he is trying to tell me...And IF you call that .."trying to DISTRACT..I DONT KNOW what to say...!! honest !! Are you telling me to just skim over your posts..not read thoroughly ??..I am reaching that point..honest...without any prompting...

2. AN "Actor"...acts...
A "COMEDIAN"...tells jokes...acts funny...
A "Stand up comedian" stands on stage and tells JOKES..he is called comedian !!
a "Joker" is one who tells JOKES...writes JOKES...
Please DONT try and read too much into words that may be out of depth...a JOKER is just that.. someone who told a JOKE..and thats what you did...YOu told us all a joke .
I meant no offense...so you shouldnt see it any other way...why ?? IN Fact if a person tells a JOKE..and NO BODY LAUGHS...THAT is a FLAW.....the joke fell flat/not funny or soemthing like that....so its perfectly natural to LAUGH at a JOKE...i wouldnt expect otherwise...

2. You claim to be "foolest"..that is HUMILITY..i appreciate it...
BUT then you go down and accuse me again of being .."proudy..etc..." you became JUDGE jury  and EXECUTED me. THANKS.


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Tejwant singh Ji, Guru Fateh !!
> If i go through your article , which you mentioned, are the same my views. So what to discuss. Why Guru ji not added his Baani in AGGS is better known to him but as Randip Singh ji has described, seems suitable to guess. I too think the same way that the most Baani he naarated and written by court poets, was directly meant to arise the dead nation/qaum-Hindus. For the last 1000 years there had been no Hindu Raja or ruler in Hindustan. The tyrant moguls were molesting, disrespecting their women, lootin their wealth, cattles etc. and the people were helpless spectators, could do nothing to protect themselves.
> So to awaken those dead men and to enter a new spirit of bravery into them, it was necessary to remind them the mythological stories of their Gods and ancestors to them in Bir ras. The outcome was as expected. The Sikh religion came in existence whose followers not only repulsed the attacks of Moguls but conquered their territory in Afghanistan and sent the message - to not dare an attack on Hindustan as we Sikhs can retaliate and have the capability to crush them in their own land.
> Pakistan is still giving names of those Mogul invadors to its nuke weapons and missiles terrorize India but Sikhs aren't terrorized. That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
> ...



Ajmer ji

Your comments are very interesting and raise my interest because in so many words you are describing a contrast that some say defines Sikhism. It is the image of the temple and the fortress. This notion was coined by scholars who trying to describe how some Guru's and some Sikhs fall into one camp or model of thinking about the faith "the  temple" and others fall into another camp or model "the fortress" The "temple" fold are the devotional and meditative types who adhere to the spiritual guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The "fortress" fold are the active and dynamic ones who find support in Dasam Granth. Anyway that is how I understand the temple and the fortress.

Look at your statement. Here is the fortress *"That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
The blood in veins flows faster when one recite "Chandi di waar' and thus the Sikh becomes fearless of death and prepares himself to sacrifice for the nation/religion/qaum."

*Here is the temple. *"Whereas AGGS delivers the message of peace, devotion, spirituality, oneness of timeless God Waheguru beyond my explaination. You people better know."
*
Here is the problem. *All of the Gurus - in an unbroken succession continuing to the 11th and final Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, speak with 1 voice and are speaking from 1 light Jyot. 
*
The temple and the fortress is a difficult image because it creates the idea that there is some kind of divided mentality among Gurus. All but one on the temple side (1-9 and 11). Then you have number 10 on the fortress side. On one side are the contemplative, mystical, spiritual ones, and on the other side is the fearless and legendary warrior. This is a wrong-headed kind of image. It does great disservice to the Nanaks 1-9 who were able to inspire a strong sense of moral outrage in the real-world battles and day-to-day struggles against the obscenities of the Mughal and Brahmin overlords. It does a disservice to Guru Hargobind who coined the idea of 2 swords, one for miri and one for piri, and an undivided moral consciousness. Most of all it undermines completely the intellectual, spiritual, and ethical majesty of Sri Guru Gobind Singh who was more than an epic hero on the battlefield, but was one of the most outstanding religious scholars of his time. It may be he was the Most outstanding spiritual leaders in centuries.* There is also disservice to Nanak 11, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, within/where there is no division of consciousness. All of our Gurus speak with one voice through Granth Sahib. The temple and the fortress are one and the same. *Apologies if I have misunderstood your point*. 
*


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Ajmer ji
> 
> Your comments are very interesting and raise my interest because in so many words you are describing a contrast that some say defines Sikhism. It is the image of the temple and the fortress. This notion was coined by scholars who trying to describe how some Guru's and some Sikhs fall into one camp or model of thinking about the faith "the temple" and others fall into another camp or model "the fortress" The "temple" fold are the devotional and meditative types who adhere to the spiritual guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The "fortress" fold are the active and dynamic ones who find support in Dasam Granth. Anyway that is how I understand the temple and the fortress.
> 
> ...


 
Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have explained the above in very beautiful and nitid manner. No SIKH SCHOLAR of any calibre would have explained it better.

So please accept my gratitude and heartfelt thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You never responded to my question rather mentioned the following to Gyani ji.



> Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
> * I remember the question by Tejwant singh ji was about Hemkunt though AGGs ji. How could i prove that? *Could you-then come ahead and give him a suitable answer.


 
Ajmer Singh ji, I am sorry to say that it is a false statement by you. *I never asked you to prove Hemkunt through SGGS. *

All of us who interact in this forum are *TRUTHSEEKERS*.  As Sikhs that is our duty. Please re -read what I wrote and respond truthfully accordingly.

Thanks and waiting for the response.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

Veer waheguru seekar ji, Guru fateh !!
You have beautifully defined the stages of devotion and legend warriors, no doubt contrast is there though while writing i was also confused but i meant to say thatGuru Gobind Singh ji deleberately did not add his Baani in AGGS. He diffrentiated in both Granths. (1)AGGS;-- in which the Baani of devotion, peace, spiritruality, praising Akal Purakh -the timeless God Waheguru etc. is there by 9 masters /Gurus of Sikh religion whereas by the sacrifices of Gurus and unending Mogul tortures to the devotes, he had made up his mind to awake the dead qaum to a warrior class. "Sawaa lakh se ek laraoon Tabhey Gobind Singh naam kahaoon ". For to bring the changes, to enter a new life in dead qaum/nation he decided to recite the baani with Bir ras which ultimately proved a right decision. His all the baani along the baani og his courtpoets written and approved with his consent was composed in Dasam Granth. It was compiled for Khalsa to keep in high spirit always. So he might have decided to compile seperately and bestowed Guru Gaddi to AGGS.
His disiples like Baba Deep Singh ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji along with his Panj pyares used to recite this baani of Dasam Granth and its Baani was recited in the congregation of Sikhs to inspire them for martyrdom to save their valor and pride. Hence guru ji might have taken this decision.
In whole AGGS, the Baani gives the message of Naam japp except on 
Ang 1200, where Guru Ramdass ji delivers the message to youths to obey their parents who have given birth to them as they deserves to be given respect.
That's the difference in both the Granths and to keep them separate. The Baani full of Bir-ras was not added into AGGS deleberately. This is my expectation.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

Veer Tejwant singh, 
If misunderstanding is there, please re-write your question. Why i wrote to Gyaniji, may be in some pretext, i don't remember. I wonder one thing your's and Gyani ji's views always favoring each other whereas if i protest, i do appreciate also. Why so?
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Truth does not remain hidden.


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## dalsingh (Jun 17, 2009)

> His disiples like Baba Deep Singh ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji along with his Panj pyares used to recite this baani of Dasam Granth and its Baani was recited in the congregation of Sikhs to inspire them for martyrdom to save their valor and pride.


 
Brother, where did you come across this information? Please inform me.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

Veer jio, iGuru fateh !!
I have the copy of the letter written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and a copy of Rahatnama written by his nephew.Moreover see the front page of Dasam Granth at Patna sahib approving this.
Regards .
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## dalsingh (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer jio, iGuru fateh !!
> I have the copy of the letter written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and a copy of Rahatnama written by his nephew.Moreover see the front page of Dasam Granth at Patna sahib approving this.
> Regards .
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


 
Gurfath

Bhai ji, that letter attributed to Bhai Mani Singh about the 303 trias is BLATANTLY too modern in writing style to be authentic. 

Can you provide more details of this rehit by his nephew please? A scan perhaps? I have not heard of it.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> Gurfath
> 
> Bhai ji, that letter attributed to Bhai Mani Singh about the 303 trias is BLATANTLY too modern in writing style to be authentic.
> 
> Can you provide more details of this rehit by his nephew please? A scan perhaps? I have not heard of it.



That letter states that 303 charitras have been located till that date. Those who doubt that letter, have they got it chemically analysed to say that letter is not authentic. if so please give the reference here.

dal singh ji, there are writings of english writers who have witnessed gurmatta during maharaja ranjit singh's time indicating that dasam granth was kept in prakash during Gurmattas. have you seen those writings.

Moreover there is a gutka of Baba deep singh ji shaheed having bani from Dasam granth.

Only serious discussions please.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

Aad ji, if the letter received with attachment, why it didn't publish. I had to cancel to resend with new attachment again.Please receive the attachement in response to Dal Singh ji.
Regards Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

> Truth does not remain hidden.



Randip

You deleted my post and only one line was left out of that. May i know the raeson for that? Or it is a personal whim.


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer ji

I don't have an answer because I do not know what you did when you uploaded. Best thing is to send it to me and let me upload it.

antoniadonofrio@gmail.com

Sometime today I will get it up.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Tejwant singh,
> If misunderstanding is there, please re-write your question. Why i wrote to Gyaniji, may be in some pretext, i don't remember. I wonder one thing your's and Gyani ji's views always favoring each other whereas if i protest, i do appreciate also. Why so?
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Following is the post #120 I am reposting for you as per your request. So I will wait for your response.


You write:




> Veer Tejwant Singh ji, gueu fateh !!
> You yourself is a wise person and you know that their couldn't be any reference of Hemkunt in Guru Granth Sahab ji, Than why do you ask me this *silly question*.


 
My response:

_



I get bewildered by the Sikh scholars, historians or those who call themselves having knowledge of Sikhi, when they use immature and infantile words like *SILLY* as you have to show your disdain towards what I have asked. It shows that you are trying to prove that you are superior and happen to know more , hence your conclusion made my question *SILLY* in your thought process, which shows more about yourself than about my question.

Click to expand...

_ 
_



Let's get to the facts. Following is your claim.

Pardon my ignorance but I am confused by your statement,"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha *authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"*

Click to expand...

__



And following is my question regarding your claim:

*Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri **[URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-sahib/"]Guru Granth Sahib*[/URL]* Ji.*

Please show me in my post above where I asked you to give me the references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I never did. Please read my question again and respond accordingly rather than with your infantile remarks.

I will discuss the other parts of your post after your response.

Click to expand...

_ 
Tejwant Singh


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

veer Tejwant ji, Your question is...._*Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri *__*Guru Granth Sahib*__* Ji.
Well see benchmark is AGGS, right and elaboration from Gurmat point of view. What to elaborate?.....
*_"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge the *authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"*
So where i am wrong? If you want to elaborate from Gurmat point of view the authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib, that no one can. Only the believe and faith upon 10th Guru.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer ji - Take a look and tell me if this is correct. Was there a picture or was it a document. The file came through as a docx in a zip file. If I have it wrong, then I have to try a different way.

docx files cannot be uploaded using SPN v-bulletin software. That is why you couldn't upload it.

I saved the docx file as a pdf file. You can see it on the right hand side of this post.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> veer Tejwant ji, Your question is...._*Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri *__*Guru Granth Sahib*__* Ji.*_
> _*Well see benchmark is AGGS, right and elaboration from Gurmat point of view. What to elaborate?.....*_
> "if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge the *authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"*
> So where i am wrong? If you want to elaborate from Gurmat point of view the authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib, that no one can. *Only the believe and faith upon 10th Guru.*
> ...


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please elaborate how can *" only then believe  and faith upon 10th Guru"- your words, not mine-* be authenticated? It is oxy{censored} and also self contradictory to even think like that because authentication of anything requires hard facts not belief and faith.

So your claim is not only false but also misleading.

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Benchmark* of SGGS.... is the clue...to a complete answer on Hemkunt.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2009)

*Guru Granth Sahib as the only Sikh Canon; Fresh Look at the Text and History of Dasam Granth*

* Summary*
*By Jasbir Singh Mann*


  Personal Guruship was ended by the 10th Guru after finalizing the Sikh mission and sanctifying and passing succession to Guru Granth Sahib as a future Guru of the Sikhs in 1708. This was the final culmination of the Sikh concept of Guruship, capable of resisting the temptation to defy the lines of human Gurus. The Tenth Guru while maintaining the concept of Shabad Guru also made the Panth distinctive by introducing corporate Guruship. The concept of Guruship continued and the role of human gurus transferred to the Guru Panth and that of the revealed world to Guru Granth Sahib making Sikhism a distinct modern religion in 1708. This historical fact is well documented in Sikh sources of 18th century. Sainapat (1711), Bhai Nandlal, Bhai Prahlad, and Chaupa Singh, Koer Singh (1751), Kesar Singh Chibbar (1769), Mahima Prakash (1775), Munshi Sant Singh on account of Bedi family of the Una, Unpublished records, Bhatt Vahis. Persian sources: Mirza Muhammed (1705-1719 AD), Sayad Muhammed Qasim (1722 AD), Hussain Lahauri (1731), Royal Court News of Mughals, Akhbarat-i-Darbar-i-Mualla (1708). Western accounts of 18th century including Father Wendel, Charles Wilkins, Crauford, James Browne, George Forester, and John Griffith clearly emphasize the tenants of Nanak as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib as the only promulgated scripture of the Sikhs. 
  There was no Dasam Granth found in Punjab or Delhi area in 18th century. There is no evidence that in 18th century”Adi granth was not given any exclusive preference over the bani of Guru Gobind Singh” as this idea was floated by Mcleod & Grewal J.S.   Malcom’selfcreated story ”at time of Khalsa Initiation ,Five weapons were presented to the intiate”  which is further promoted by Pashaura singh & Mcleod “ Orgnizers of Singh Sabha Movement replaced the tradition of Five Weapons with that Of Five religion symbols(known as Five Ks)”  is not Based on any  Sikh or western Source.    There were 32 Dasam Granths circulating in the Amritsar’ area by 1890. The presently published Dasam Granth (1902) was created by the Sodhak Committee formed of British Cronies (1895-1897) to give a closer to the Granth floated by them in the late 18th century with the help of Nirmalas at Patna. The manuscript of this granth was implanted in the East India Library by Colebrook & Charles Wilkins and used by John Malcom in 1810, in his book “Sketch of the Sikhs”. Devnagri Dasam Granth (Presently in British Library, London) was written in February 1847 after the Sikhs lost the first Anglo-Sikh War (Second treaty with Lahore December 16, 1846 at Bhairowal when Britishers became virtual masters of Punjab). Treacherous Sardar Tej Singh was the chief of the regency council when this Devnagri Dasam Granth was created. In recognition of his services, the title of Raja was conferred on him on August 7, 1847. Story of Mani Singh compiling a Dasam Granth between 1721 to 1738 during his stay at Amritsar at the request of Mata Sundri is difficult to prove by evidence as the Dasam Granth reported to be compiled by him was found only in 1818 and the first part of this manuscript is a Bano Version of Guru Granth Sahib which makes it very unlikely to be the composition compiled by Mani Singh who compiled the Damdami version earlier. The story of Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh slaying Massa Ranghar and reward of successful mission keeping the various parts of Dasam Granth as a single volume cannot be supported by any historical evidence. Babadeep Singh is said to have compiled another manuscript of Dasam Granth in 1747 A.D. as reported by Giani Singh which ends at Asfotak Kabit. Only Sangrur Bir as studied by Padam & Jaggi Is reported to end with final title Asfotak Kabit .Therefore, probably it is the same Manuscript as reported by Giani Gian Singh . The first portion  Of This Manuscript is Guru Granth Sahib & 2nd portion is Dasam granth.This Manuscript Contains additional compositions Like Sansahar Sukhmana, Vaar Malkauns and Chakka Bhagoti Which Were edited & deleted by Sodhak Committee in 1897, therefore   cannot make this manuscript authentic. By history Babadeep Singh bir/Sangrur bir appeared in 1857 only. The author has reviewed the history and text of Dasam Granth from 18th to 20th century and the summary of the findings is as follows:
  •          [/FONT]Historical analysis shows that 10th master may have made many Granths noted in the literature e.g. Smudsagar / Avtarlila / Vidyasagar Granth/Vidyadar Granth / Bachitar Natak /Satsai Granth. But no original Granth is available as they were lost in river and warfare.
  •          [/FONT]Bhai Mani Singh is reported to compile Dasam Granth between 1721-1738 at request of Mata Sundri but no original available.Photgrphs as published by Dr. Padam In His 3rd Edition reported to be in possession of Mata sundry Has no Histry of 18th&19th century. 
  •          [/FONT]Controversy of Dasam Granth Authenticity started in 18th century and still continues
  •          [/FONT]By the end of 19th century (1895), 32 birs of Dasam Granth were in circle in Amritsar which were used by Sodhak Committee to finalize the final version of *Dasam Patshahi GURU Granth Sahib sahib JI. *
  •          [/FONT]. Lahore Singh Sabha With 118 associations DID NOT Recognize This new Dasam Pathshai Guru Granth Sahib in 1897. 3 articles published in Khalsa Akhbar Lahore against this committee on october 4th,25th&november 1st 1895.
  •          [/FONT]1897 - Above bir has no significance among the Sikhs as not mentioned by Akali Ran Singh, 1905 in his book about Dasam Granth
  •          [/FONT]Kahan Singh Nabha in 1930 in Mahan Kosh does not mention 1897 sodhak Committee report or dasam granth published in 1902 based on this report.  He talks about only two birs of Mani Singh & Sukha Singh Bir& requests more thorough work on this issue.
  •          [/FONT]Dharam Pal Ashta 1959 Based his Thesis On Sodhak committee Report of 1897 without confirming Authenticity of Dasam Granth Manusripts he used in his study.
  •          [/FONT]Historical analysis shows that no bir of Dasam Granth was seen in Punjab or New Delhi area ia 18th century, only Charles Wilkins in 1781 sees some second Granth in Patna which he reported appeared later and also reported that Guru Granth Sahib was the only sanctified and promulgated.
  •          [/FONT]Historical records show, Banda Singh, Nawab Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, and Sikh Misals of the 18th century do not revere Dasam Granth. Baghel Singh built 8 hitorical Gurudwaras in New Delhi in 1784 and no evidence of Dasam Granth installed anywhere.
  •          [/FONT]Textual analysis of all  known birs of Dasam Granth show variations of titles in Tatkara, variation of titles at start of composition and variation of contents. History of no DG birs goes before 1818.
  •          [/FONT]No original Khas patra available. Letter of Mani Singh is spurious
  •          [/FONT]Historical inconsistencies in Bachitar Natak. There are various scribes of Dasam Granth. Difficult to discuss orthography as no original is available.
  •          [/FONT]Ideological inconsistencies and ideological variations
  •          [/FONT]Heterogeneous Granth of different collections compiled by Sukha Singh and promoted by the British
  •          [/FONT]Dating inconsistencies. Wrong chronology, 7 compositions excluded in 1897 published Text ?
  •          [/FONT]Bachitar Natak, a manipulative collection with no mention of martyrdom of 5th Guru. Reverence of Adi Granth compiled in 1604 and as spiritual guru to the Sikhs since then. No mention of creation of Khalsa and Amrit ceremony.
  •          [/FONT]Malcom’s sketch of the Sikhs created a distorted Sikhism to diminish the spirit of the Sikhs and their government as proposed by William Franklin in 1803 in his account.
  •          [/FONT]10th guru only gave sanctification to A.G.G.S. alone in 1708 and not to any other Granth
  •          [/FONT]Bani of A.G.G.S. is the sole Guru for Sikhs and a sole canon to accept any idea, concept, suggestion, and any writing
  •          [/FONT]Based upon above doctrine Banis / writing of 10th Guru accepted in Sikh Rahat Maryada got Sanctfied By Guru Panth (1927-1936) are final and unquestionable. Japu Sahib,  10 swaeyas(swarg Sudu Waley 21-30 akal ustit) Chaupai, Ardas (as sanctioned RehatMaryada).including Akal Ustit (except Chhand 201-230),khalsa mehma, 33 Swaeyas, Shabad Hazarey and Zafarnama are banis / writings of 10th Guru. Khalsa Panth collectively is allowed to make / accept any changes based upon the doctrines as established in A.G.G.S. acceptable to the Guru Panth
  •          [/FONT]*Presently published Dasam Granth is a piece of Sikh literature like many other books in Sikh history. It is a compilation of heterogeneous granths in late 18th century by Mahant Nawal & Dayal Singh and Sukha Singh Granthi at Patna by converting a Hindoove language  manuscript “Nanak Panthi Kabya” to Gurmukhi Granth, Dasmi Patshahi Granth. They interpolated Bani and writings of Patshahi 10 and other simialar saloks like GGS to gain credibility of this Granth which was promoted by Malcom initially in “Sketch of the Sikhs” published in 1810,1812. Brought to Punjab Gurdwaras by Nirmalas in early 19th Century* 
  •          [/FONT]Sikhism an integrated religion with unity of Sikh thought between the first and tenth Guru. Tenth Guru sanctified only one Granth (cannon), that is Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Inder singh (Jun 17, 2009)

> •*Presently published Dasam Granth is a piece of Sikh literature like many other books in Sikh history. It is a compilation of heterogeneous granths in late 18th century by Mahant Nawal & Dayal Singh and Sukha Singh Granthi at Patna by converting a Hindoove language manuscript “Nanak Panthi Kabya” to Gurmukhi Granth, Dasmi Patshahi Granth. They interpolated Bani and writings of Patshahi 10 and other simialar saloks like GGS to gain credibility of this Granth which was promoted by Malcom initially in “Sketch of the Sikhs” published in 1810,1812. Brought to Punjab Gurdwaras by Nirmalas in early 19th Century*


I wish Jasbir singh Mann should participate in the discussion here and clear my points on Dasam granth.

His statement that this is written by some nirmala mahant has been proved wrong on learning-zone when he was quoting some verse from Gian probodh to show that Nirmla mahant's name comes in that. After that he stopped writing there. This happened four years back.

His statement about Nanak Panthi kabya is also wrong and lacks credibility. We have done research on that. He is trying to give impression that Dasam Granth was an import of British and before eighteenth century there was no Dasam granth in Punjab.

Charles malcolm a british Commander came to Punjab in 1805 in pursuit of Holkar a maratha rebel who had taken shelter of Ranjit singh. Charles malcolm came there with permission of Maharaja ranjit singh ji. There was Gurmatta held at akal takhat in 1805. He saw that and later on when he wrote his book " Sketch of sikhs" he mentioned what he saw in that gurmatta.

Below is a refrence from his book " Asketch of sikhs"

quote
Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, *Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab*,written by Sir John Malcolm*** in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century .​ *Guru-mata*​ 
When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs.

 When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the *Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them*. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab.

*(pages. 120-123)*
*________________________*
**Sir John Malcolm* (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., *Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812)*_, _ _A History of Persia_ (1815), _Memoir of Central India_(1823), _Political History of India from 1784 to 1823_ (1826), and _Life of Lord Clive_ (1836)


Unquote


Most of us know that Punjab was taken ovevr by British in 1849. Before that gilding work of Harmandir sahib was undertaken in first decade of 1800s by maharaja ranjit singh and entrance door of Harmandir sahib had inscription of beginning of Ardas from Chandi di vaar.


I personally invited him to attend seminar at sacramento on dasam granth in 2007 as we had a lot of literature and if any doubts of him could be removed by us. One evening before seminar he phoned me and expressed his inability to come.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 17, 2009)

Veer Tejawant ji, Guru fateh !!
Instead of getting annoyed on unnecessary t hings, please calm down.
Believe and faith upon 10th Guru and you require authentication. What do you think me a fool or you want to make me by such ideology. Please don't distract from the main subject. I dsare to say again i can't answer such silly questions. The same i have quoted earlier.So please excuse me, if any other readee can answer you, he is welcome.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

Please forgive my interrupting your discussion with a moderator's note. I have deleted 3 posts in this thread. One by Gyani ji which seemed to be a duplicate post. And two identical posts by Inder ji which also seemed to be a duplicate and triplicate of an earlier post. Please take a careful look to make sure that I was not seeing things, and in fact they were duplications. Thank you: aad0002


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

Mine was duplicate..and i was pretty sure i pressed submit only once. anyway i had already institued laptop shut down as i was already late going out..so left it for later. Thanks aad ji for doing the needful.

btw has happened a few times - maybe aman ji can check out IF its a glitch at spns end...because i am sure the others may also be sending only once..but spn gets two posts. Thanks.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 18, 2009)

interesting discussion

but i think no one is answering the original questions


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

Ajmer singh ji,
gurfateh.

Can you clarify ( as per your understanding)
WHICH JYOT was doing penance on Hemkunt ?..Nanak JYOT or some other ?
Guru naank Ji came FIRST...His AUTHENTIC GURBANI is with us in SGGS..He didnt say a single word about His JYOT sitting on any seven peaked mountain....and Guur nanak ji PLACED HIS JYOT into Guru Angad...and then on the SAME JYOT to GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..and NOW into SGGS.
NONE of the Nine Gurus mentioned ANYTHING..not a peep about any such places, mountains etc. DIDNT THEY do nay such??

2. HEMKUNT is ON THIS EARTH...and the JYOT was doing PENANCE ON THIS EARTH..for how long...YUGS ??? Can a JYOT feel the cold/heat ?? does it have to SIT on one place ?? SHIVJI is always shown sitting on some snow laden peak with snake around his neck...is this Penance similar to what you beleive Guru ji did ...ISNT GURU JYOT SUPERCEDING THE UNIVERSE...confining this JYOT to a mere HIMALAYAN MOUNTAIN FOR YUGS and YUGS is a ???? preposterous idea....like caging a LION in a parrot cage ???

3. WHY not a SINGLE GURU in SGGS ever mention any such jyots and penances etc. Neither did any Bhagat....in fact NO ONE says anything..not even a WHISPER..why ?? GURU NANAK JI JYOT came from where...didnt HE come from WAHEGURU DARBAAR...and WASNT HE SENT to ESTABLISH DHARAM in 1469....didnt HE FIGHT TYRANNY and INJUSTICE...???
Thank you for your replies... Please quote any Complete SHABADS from SGGS if you have nay.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> interesting discussion
> 
> but i think no one is answering the original questions



Amar ji..

highly embarassing observation..dont you think ?

IS it so...because the questions are basically *UNANSWERABLE..TRUTHFULLY* !! so beat around the BUSH..and hope for the BEST....some poor pigeon with closed eyes will fall into the trap..trouble is due to the IT AGE..just about everybody ahs his eyes wide open and no piegeon is sleeping...all fly awaay at the slightest noise....wow..


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 18, 2009)

Hell and punishment

Gyani ji and other learned members

can someone share thoughts on this

pp 278

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ 
सलोकु ॥ 
Salok. 
Shalok: 

ਸੁਖੀ ਬਸੈ ਮਸਕੀਨੀਆ ਆਪੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਤਲੇ ॥ 
सुखी बसै मसकीनीआ आपु निवारि तले ॥ 
Sukẖī basai maskīnī▫ā āp nivār ṯale. 
The humble beings abide in peace; subduing egotism, they are meek. 

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਰਬਿ ਗਲੇ ॥੧॥ 
बडे बडे अहंकारीआ नानक गरबि गले ॥१॥ 
Bade bade ahaŉkārī▫ā Nānak garab gale. ||1|| 
The very proud and arrogant persons, O Nanak, are consumed by their own pride. ||1|| 

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥ 
असटपदी ॥ 
Asatpaḏī. 
Ashtapadee: 

ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ 
जिस कै अंतरि राज अभिमानु ॥ 
Jis kai anṯar rāj abẖimān. 
One who has the pride of power within, 

ਸੋ ਨਰਕਪਾਤੀ ਹੋਵਤ ਸੁਆਨੁ ॥ 
सो नरकपाती होवत सुआनु ॥ 
So narakpāṯī hovaṯ su▫ān. 
shall dwell in hell, and become a dog. 

ਜੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੈ ਜੋਬਨਵੰਤੁ ॥ 
जो जानै मै जोबनवंतु ॥ 
Jo jānai mai jobanvanṯ. 
One who deems himself to have the beauty of youth, 

ਸੋ ਹੋਵਤ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਜੰਤੁ ॥ 
सो होवत बिसटा का जंतु ॥ 
So hovaṯ bistā kā janṯ. 
shall become a maggot in manure. 

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਕਰਮਵੰਤੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥ 
आपस कउ करमवंतु कहावै ॥ 
Āpas ka▫o karamvanṯ kahāvai. 
One who claims to act virtuously, 

ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵੈ ॥ 
जनमि मरै बहु जोनि भ्रमावै ॥ 
Janam marai baho jon bẖarmāvai. 
shall live and die, wandering through countless reincarnations. 

ਧਨ ਭੂਮਿ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਕਰੈ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥ 
धन भूमि का जो करै गुमानु ॥ 
Ḏẖan bẖūm kā jo karai gumān. 
One who takes pride in wealth and lands 

ਸੋ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
सो मूरखु अंधा अगिआनु ॥ 
So mūrakẖ anḏẖā agi▫ān. 
is a fool, blind and ignorant. 

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
करि किरपा जिस कै हिरदै गरीबी बसावै ॥ 
Kar kirpā jis kai hirḏai garībī basāvai. 
One whose heart is mercifully blessed with abiding humility, 

ਨਾਨਕ ਈਹਾ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਆਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ 
नानक ईहा मुकतु आगै सुखु पावै ॥१॥ 
Nānak īhā mukaṯ āgai sukẖ pāvai. ||1|| 
O Nanak, is liberated here, and obtains peace hereafter. ||1|| 

ਧਨਵੰਤਾ ਹੋਇ ਕਰਿ ਗਰਬਾਵੈ ॥ 
धनवंता होइ करि गरबावै ॥ 
Ḏẖanvanṯā ho▫e kar garbāvai. 
One who becomes wealthy and takes pride in it - 

ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਸਮਾਨਿ ਕਛੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ 
त्रिण समानि कछु संगि न जावै ॥ 
Ŧariṇ samān kacẖẖ sang na jāvai. 
not even a piece of straw shall go along with him. 

ਬਹੁ ਲਸਕਰ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਆਸ ॥ 
बहु लसकर मानुख ऊपरि करे आस ॥ 
Baho laskar mānukẖ ūpar kare ās. 
He may place his hopes on a large army of men, 

ਪਲ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ 
पल भीतरि ता का होइ बिनास ॥ 
Pal bẖīṯar ṯā kā ho▫e binās. 
but he shall vanish in an instant. 

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਜਾਨੈ ਬਲਵੰਤੁ ॥ 
सभ ते आप जानै बलवंतु ॥ 
Sabẖ ṯe āp jānai balvanṯ. 
One who deems himself to be the strongest of all, 

ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ਭਸਮੰਤੁ ॥ 
खिन महि होइ जाइ भसमंतु ॥ 
Kẖin mėh ho▫e jā▫e bẖasmanṯ. 
in an instant, shall be reduced to ashes. 

ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਬਦੈ ਆਪਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
किसै न बदै आपि अहंकारी ॥ 
Kisai na baḏai āp ahaŉkārī. 
One who thinks of no one else except his own prideful self - 

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਰੇ ਖੁਆਰੀ ॥ 
धरम राइ तिसु करे खुआरी ॥ 
Ḏẖaram rā▫e ṯis kare kẖu▫ārī. 
the Righteous Judge of Dharma shall expose his disgrace. 

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ 
गुर प्रसादि जा का मिटै अभिमानु ॥ 
Gur parsāḏ jā kā mitai abẖimān. 
One who, by Guru's Grace, eliminates his ego, 

ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥੨॥ 
सो जनु नानक दरगह परवानु ॥२॥ 
So jan Nānak ḏargėh parvān. ||2|| 
O Nanak, becomes acceptable in the Court of the Lord. ||2||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

Amar Ji
Gurfateh.

IMHO..Guru Ji is using metaphorical language to explain the LIVING HELL people with those "qualities" described. IMHO GURBANI is FOR THIS WORLD. Guru Ji TOOK BIRTH among US...to TEACH US HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFE..successfully and in SPIRITUAL PEACE....how to achieve Jeewan Muktee..being sved while ALIVE.
Even the non-Gurbani readers will know that its said..KUTTA RAAJ bahaleah..FIR Chakee Chatteh. Even IF a DOG..is made a KING..he will still lick the atta chakee if given half a chance. I would take a simple example from Punjab. Badal has been made aKING..has billions stashed away..BUT given half a chance..HE still wnats to lick the atta chakee..by making his son..daughter in law..other relatives..to power..THAT is the DOG BIRTEE..the GREED in  a FULLY FED DOG..that manifests rapidly the moment the dog sees food..he will run towards it to LICK..even though hsi stomach ois bursting full. THAT SORT of LIFE is  aLIVING HELL !! comparedc to SANTOKH..peace a hard working labourer feels at night when his hard labour has managed to feed his family with simple roti daal..

ITS all about EGO, Hankaar, LOBH, MOH, Kaam, KRODH...all ANIMAL QUALITIES..that reside in MAN..and cna take him PRISONER..or they cna be Controlled and he is LIBERATED. IMHO the Liberated one is accepted in Gurus darbaar..he is in Peace..heaven..free from rebirth..etc..and the SLAVE is in HELL..being REBORN ( everytime he ahs these animal instincts REJUVENATED..he gets REBORN..and every time he KILLS them..he is LIBERATED from REBIRTH.

MY POINT is GURBANI is FOR THIS WORLD..it was written to IMPROVE OUR LIVES..teach us JEEVAN JAACH..way of LIFE...Not FRIGHTEN US about what will happen later...or try teh carrot approach of hooran and rivers of honey palaces of gold etc ( of what use is honey and gold papalces to a SOUL..no one bothers to ponder !! ALL this shows is that is the DESIRES of the Body IN THIS WORLD...so they PROMISE those desires fulfilled in the NEXT..after all who knows what happens there..promise the MOON also can ) GURBANI...doesnt deal in PROMISES..its  a PRACTICAL WORKING PAPER that can WORK...to be IMPLEMENTED HERE and NOW...:happy::happy::happy:


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 18, 2009)

* Gyani ji, *
*very tactfully you are dragging me into the discussion of authenticity of Bachitar Naatak and Dasam Granth. Before Guru Gobind Singh ji none of the nine Gurus ever disclosed their incarnation but the credit goes to Guru Gobind Singh ji only. Not only he disclosed about his meditation at Hemkunt in his previous life but you forget that when he visited at Nander, He got involved in  the controversy of ownership of land there. Guru ji ordered  his Sikhs to dig the land and recover his belongings beneath the layers of the earth to mark the prove that, that land was  belonged to him and  it was his hermitage in Satyug from where he went to Hemkunt. *
*The approved story of Hemkunt is described in Bachitar Naatak and  the story of Nanded , I have read in folklore books written of Banda Bahadur, this can be verified from Jathedar of Hazoor sahib also. *
*The jot was one and that’s why in whole AGGS, every where is described as Mahalla ! to….. Mahalla 9. So no controversy to that.*
*You are very well aware of the fact that there is no Baani of Guru Gobind Singh ji is added in AGGS so I can’t quote. But at last I disclose one fact that in many hand written manuscripts of AGGS , the 54th salok  in salok mahalla 9, is said to be of Guru Gobind Singh ji. In those manuscripts it is mentioned as salok mahalla 10. You are the scholars , historians and mum on this matter so far.(with ref. to Gurmat darsan by Prof. Sher Singh ji gyani . published by SGPC; it is a translation of “Philosophy of Sikhism earlier published in 1944".*
*Guru Fateh !!*
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

Ajmer singh ji

This discussion had ended but some members are keen to keep it revived by posting personal opinions of individuals.

The banis of tenth master are reflected in all contemporary writings of sikhs of his era starting from Parchain sewa das ji written in 1708. Then another foreign writer visited Patna sahib in 1781 and he wrote very clearly about prakash of two granths at patna sahib. His writing is preserved. People are going on making their own assumptions without seeing the conditions in which Guru sahib had left Anandpur sahib. To such people we have to prove nothing. Those who doubt their Guru are not friend of anybody.

Incidentally Kavi sainapat completed his book Gurshobha in 1711. Whole book is written on the pattern
of Bachitra natak.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

> MY POINT is GURBANI is FOR THIS WORLD..it was written to IMPROVE OUR LIVES..teach us JEEVAN JAACH..way of LIFE...Not FRIGHTEN US about what will happen later...or try teh carrot approach of hooran and rivers of honey palaces of gold etc ( of what use is honey and gold papalces to a SOUL..no one bothers to ponder !! ALL this shows is that is the DESIRES of the Body IN THIS WORLD...so they PROMISE those desires fulfilled in the NEXT..after all who knows what happens there..promise the MOON also can ) GURBANI...doesnt deal in PROMISES..its a PRACTICAL WORKING PAPER that can WORK...to be IMPLEMENTED HERE and NOW...



A sikh of Guru does not aspire to get material rewards for becoming Gurmukh. Gurbani taechings are we have got this birth due to good deeds . So avail of it and remeber akal purakh and contemplate upon him. The purpose is to get rid of births and rebirths by realing akal purakh. of course good deeds form the basis of all this.

Guru sahib writes

aasaa mehlaa 5.
Aasaa, Fifth        Mehl: 
bha-ee paraapat maanukh dayhuree-aa.
This human body has        been given to you.

gobind milan kee ih tayree baree-aa.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the        Universe.

avar kaaj tayrai kitai na kaam.
Nothing else will        work.

mil saaDhsangat bhaj kayval naam. ||1||
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the        Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||

saraNjaam laag bhavjal taran kai.
Make every effort to cross over this terrifying        world-ocean.

janam baritha jaat rang maa-i-aa kai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
You are squandering        this life uselessly in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||

jap tap sanjam Dharam na kamaa-i-aa.
I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline,        self-restraint or righteous living.

sayvaa saaDh na jaani-aa har raa-i-aa.
I have not served the Holy; I        have not acknowledged the Lord, my King.

kaho naanak ham neech karammaa.
Says Nanak, my actions are        contemptible!

saran paray kee raakho sarmaa. ||2||4||
O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my        honor! ||2||4||
soihlw rwgu gauVI dIpkI mhlw 1(12-10)


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 18, 2009)

*Veer Inder Singh ji ,[/FONT]*
*Guru Gobind Singh ji went to heavenly abode in 1708. Then we can see the letter of Bhai Mani singh ji as an authentication in 1713-14. Later on His nephew wrote a rahtnama, than Bhai Binoda Singh ji who was one of the five apostles sent with Banda Bahadar. When did he left to Sach khand is not known to me. Over all Mata Sundari ji at Delhi. You can tell the year of her leaving this materialistic world to Sachkhand.[/FONT]*
*Then you quote the visit of a foreigner in 1781 at Patna Sahab who narrates the parkash of Two Granths there. Less the period from 1781 till Mata ji was alive. How many years would have left. There would be many in 1781 who would have been lucky to have seen Mata ji or visited in their congregation. That is a very short period.[/FONT]*
*Therefore the narration of that foreigner in Patna Sahab approves beyond doubt.[/FONT]*
*If I challenge the Indian Govt. by my assertions that Subhash Bose was alive after 1945 and died in 1977 and can prove it. Officially it has been 65 years since he was declared dead. So how could any body not prove the presence of two Granths in Gurdwaras as  I case 1781 and 1805.[/FONT]*
*There is no end to answer the uttrence of parrots. You will get tired but they won’t. They are in the search of a clue where they may get a chance to humiliate the favorers of dasam Granth.[/FONT]*
*You might be aware that if a terrorist chases someone to assassinates him, the victim may try a hundred times but ultimately he gets killed by the chasing assassinator, similarly they are chasing, nothing else.[/FONT]*
*Guru fateh !![/FONT]*[/FONT]


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

Ajmer ji

In one thread the "parrots" are the enemy because they want to interpret SGGS. On another thread the "parrots" are the innocent victims of "terrorists" i.e., anti Guru, anti Gurmat, forces. What is the forum member with an uncomplicated mind supposed to think when he/she reads these conversations? It sounds just like someone is talking out of both sides of the mouth. 

*To those who are willing to admit they are confused by the two threads: Chauttah Pad and this thread on Kala Afghana. No you are not losing your ability to make sense. You are not going crazy. The whole thing is starting to read like that old TV show "The Outer Limits." There is a lot of inner contradiction and rambling going on that may lead to serious moderation. Sat Nam. *


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Ajmer ji
> 
> In one thread the "parrots" are the enemy because they want to interpret SGGS. On another thread the "parrots" are the innocent victims of "terrorists" i.e., anti Guru, anti Gurmat, forces. What is the forum member with an uncomplicated mind supposed to think when he/she reads these conversations? It sounds just like someone is talking out of both sides of the mouth.
> 
> *To those who are willing to admit they are confused by the two threads: Chauttah Pad and this thread on Kala Afghana. No you are not losing your ability to make sense. You are not going crazy. The whole thing is starting to read like that old TV show "The Outer Limits." There is a lot of inner contradiction and rambling going on that may lead to serious moderation. Sat Nam. *



These two thraeds are different and independent. What are you trying to point out by writing above. At best your assertion is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

Ajmer singh ji

You have pointed out the whole conclusion. The period is very short. The traditions do not sprout all of a sudden. Dal khalsa was there on the scene much eralier than 1781. So procedure of gurmatta was same as far as place was concerned( Akal takhat Amritsar) and modlities were same. 

Guru sahib was struck with third arrow of Hari Chand in his waist belt in battle of Bhangani. Guru sahib ahs described that in bachitra natak and wrote

Jabe baan lagiyo
Tabe ros jagiyo

That belt is still there in the treasure of Royal house of patiala. There is a composition of Dasam granth written on that.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

Inder ji

I think I am trying to say that forum readers should not be concerned if there is too much squawking or they are reminded of parrots. The effects are only temporary.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

*o*


> those who are willing to admit they are confused by the two threads: Chauttah Pad and this thread on Kala Afghana. No you are not losing your ability to make sense. You are not going crazy. The whole thing is starting to read like that old TV show "The Outer Limits." There is a lot of inner contradiction and rambling going on that may lead to serious moderation. Sat Nam.



Why do not you spell out clearly what is going on in your mind. A sikh always calls a spade a spade.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Inder ji
> 
> I think I am trying to say that forum readers should not be concerned if there is too much squawking or they are reminded of parrots. The effects are only temporary.



But there is no link between two threads. I think we are trying to raise a phantom out of nothing.


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Inder ji
> 
> I think I am trying to say that forum readers should not be concerned if there is too much squawking or they are reminded of parrots. The effects are only temporary.



Inder ji

Right there up above is what I am saying. The link is the "parrot strategy."


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

Reminds me of a line from the Old mariner...Water water everywhere..not a drop to drink !!
I hope the thirsty ones are not disillusioned...the WATER...the AMRIT is indeed THERE..just waiting to be discovered  through GURBANI-VICHAAR. In the jungles of the Amazon...parotts on every branch..leaves rustle in the wind....parrot here and parrot there..the "searcher" of Divine Truth trekks on relentlessly ignoring the caophony of the sanyasi jungle dwellers....turning over GURBANI over and over in their Inner Minds..DYAAN...DHYAAN...DHYAAN..not mindful of any thing else...they achieve Peace. Parots can fly from branch to branch..tree to tree..seeking to distract...with their parotting cacophony...ignore and DHYAAN DHYAAN as Gurbani says.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 18, 2009)

what are you doing in Amazon?:crazy:


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

Amarsanghera ji

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
Interesting - In the Amazon parrots fly from tree to tree seeking another's response. In the desert camels wander from oasis to oasis in search of a drink. The parrots make noise.   The camels don't make as much noise though they do make noise.:whisling:  But the noise can be put to one side nonetheless. And thirst can be quenched. Everything turns out good in the end. :ice: The Divine vibration, amrithh of His Name.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Amarsanghera ji
> 
> :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
> Interesting - In the Amazon parrots fly from tree to tree seeking another's response. In the desert camels wander from oasis to oasis in search of a drink. The parrots make noise.  The camels don't make as much noise though they do make noise.:whisling: But the noise can be put to one side nonetheless. And thirst can be quenched. Everything turns out good in the end. :ice: The Divine vibration, amrithh of His Name.


 
Aad ji

Your description is very graphic. have you been to these places?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 18, 2009)

AAD JI...BULLS EYE !! where did you learn archery from ??

 At the Battle of Anandpur, one evening...Guru Gobind Singh Ji once shot an arrow from an "impossible" distance straight into the Pava (the part of manja leg that protrudes above - punjabi bed made of strings - its four legs are called Pavahs..and the head of each pava is above the level of the bed platform) ON this bed  in the Centre of the Mughal Camp surrounding Anandpur sahib...were sitting three Mughal Generals and they were discussing how to get Guru Gobind Singh Ji !! when His Golden tipped Arrow came "shooooooking".. out of thin air and embedded into the Pavah.. Tied to it was  aparchment that said..I KNOW !!...IF I wanted to KILL YOU I could do it easily...Thats BULLS EYE Dasam Pita Ji style..and we are His Sikhs !! WE shoot Bulls Eye BUT not to "kill" !!
WE shoot straight to the Centre...to TEACH a lesson.:happy:


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

Gyani ji

I have good teachers. All having One Good Teacher.


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> I have good teachers. All having One Good Teacher.


 

A lot of backpatting is going on. Has it any connection to the subject?


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 18, 2009)

*Aad ji, 
[/FONT]*
*I am sorry if any confusion is created because of me. I wrote in reference to some  members who, though being provided authenticated proves but Inder singh ji asked again the authentication on some pretext. When authenticity of Hemkunt can be questioned and asked to quote Gurbaani references, Elaborate Guru Gobind Singh’s incarnation, I mean as Dusht-Daman, then authenticity of Nanded, hazoor Sahab ji is also to be questioned. Guru Gobind Singh ji proved at Nanded that this land was their hermitage in Satyug. Can someone quote any Gurubaani reference to prove that? What if any learned person pulls on the thread, how will you refer then? This parrot utterance is used as proverb.[/FONT]*
*Guru Fateh !![/FONT]*
*Ajmer Singh Randhawa.[/FONT]*


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## Inder singh (Jun 18, 2009)

Dr Joginder singh of California ,USA has done a lot of research on DG manuscripts. This was his reply to Jasbir singh mann on learning-zone in reply to his British conspiracy theory on October 26,2006.

on 18th Century DG Mss.

  1. Punjab University, Chandigarh has a MS. No. 522 (folios 766), dated 1789 CE.
  2. Randhir Singh (Shabad Moorat) and Piara Singh (DG Darshan) describe a Ms. copy of Misal Patna prepared in 1765 CE at Jammu.
3. Randhir Singh also refers to a 18th century DG in a Gurdwara at Kolkata in Shabad Moorat (I am sorry I am away from my base and cannot give the exact reference).

In my opinion the argument that there was no DG in Punjab in the 18th century is not valid regarding the existence of DG. The British conspiracy theory is far fetched.

  Joginder Singh
  Richmond, CA (Camp Patiala)


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 18, 2009)

*Gyaniji, [/FONT]*
*As you refer erred the arrow was shot at pavah at (The leg of Manja) in the battle of Anandpu Sahab. No Gyani ji , you are forgetting This was shot from Moti Bag Delhi to The Red fort at the pavah of Mogul emperor Bahadar shah. He by looking at the golden tipped arrow recognized and said, “Oh this is a miracle of Guru Gobind Singh.” Immediately soon after this , another arrow embedded again into the pavah, a letter was attached with it, written by Guru ji,”This is not a miracle but art of archery, and that if Guru ji wanted he could kill him but not as their was no hukam of Akal Purakh. [/FONT]*
*Even now if a bullet is shot from any sophisticated weapon, it can not cover the said distance. That was Guru ji’s arrow. Gurudwara Moti Bag is there to remind us this historical incident of fame.[/FONT]*
*Guru Fateh !![/FONT]*
*Ajmer Singh Randhawa.[/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 18, 2009)

aad ji

sometimes the parrots tatter makes more sense than an ascetics samadhi

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:

ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
गोविदु गुणी निधानु है अंतु न पाइआ जाइ ॥
Goviḏ guṇī niḏẖān hai anṯ na pā▫i▫ā jā▫e.
The Lord of the Universe is the Treasure of Excellence; His limits cannot be found.

ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
कथनी बदनी न पाईऐ हउमै विचहु जाइ ॥
Kathnī baḏnī na pā▫ī▫ai ha▫umai vicẖahu jā▫e.
He is not obtained by mouthing mere words, but by rooting out ego from within.

ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸਦ ਭੈ ਰਚੈ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੧॥
सतगुरि मिलिऐ सद भै रचै आपि वसै मनि आइ ॥१॥
Saṯgur mili▫ai saḏ bẖai racẖai āp vasai man ā▫e. ||1||
Meeting the True Guru, one is permeated forever with the Fear of God, who Himself comes to dwell within the mind. ||1||

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
भाई रे गुरमुखि बूझै कोइ ॥
Bẖā▫ī re gurmukẖ būjẖai ko▫e.
O Siblings of Destiny, one who becomes Gurmukh and understands this is very rare.

ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਖੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
बिनु बूझे करम कमावणे जनमु पदारथु खोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Bin būjẖe karam kamāvṇe janam paḏārath kẖo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
To act without understanding is to lose the treasure of this human life. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਨੀ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਤਿਨੀ ਸਾਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਚਾਖੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥
जिनी चाखिआ तिनी सादु पाइआ बिनु चाखे भरमि भुलाइ ॥
Jinī cẖākẖi▫ā ṯinī sāḏ pā▫i▫ā bin cẖākẖe bẖaram bẖulā▫e.
Those who have tasted it, enjoy its flavor; without tasting it, they wander in doubt, lost and deceived.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
अम्रितु साचा नामु है कहणा कछू न जाइ ॥
Amriṯ sācẖā nām hai kahṇā kacẖẖū na jā▫e.
The True Name is the Ambrosial Nectar; no one can describe it.

ਪੀਵਤ ਹੂ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਭਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
पीवत हू परवाणु भइआ पूरै सबदि समाइ ॥२॥
Pīvaṯ hū parvāṇ bẖa▫i▫ā pūrai sabaḏ samā▫e. ||2||
Drinking it in, one becomes honorable, absorbed in the Perfect Word of the Shabad. ||2||

ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
आपे देइ त पाईऐ होरु करणा किछू न जाइ ॥
Āpe ḏe▫e ṯa pā▫ī▫ai hor karṇā kicẖẖū na jā▫e.
He Himself gives, and then we receive. Nothing else can be done.

ਦੇਵਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਕੈ ਹਥਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
देवण वाले कै हथि दाति है गुरू दुआरै पाइ ॥
Ḏevaṇ vāle kai hath ḏāṯ hai gurū ḏu▫ārai pā▫e.
The Gift is in the Hands of the Great Giver. At the Guru's Door, in the Gurdwara, it is received.

ਜੇਹਾ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਤੇਹਾ ਹੋਆ ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ ॥੩॥
जेहा कीतोनु तेहा होआ जेहे करम कमाइ ॥३॥
Jehā kīṯon ṯehā ho▫ā jehe karam kamā▫e. ||3||
Whatever He does, comes to pass. All act according to His Will. ||3||

ਜਤੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
जतु सतु संजमु नामु है विणु नावै निरमलु न होइ ॥
Jaṯ saṯ sanjam nām hai viṇ nāvai nirmal na ho▫e.
The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is abstinence, truthfulness, and self-restraint. Without the Name, no one becomes pure.

ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
पूरै भागि नामु मनि वसै सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥
Pūrai bẖāg nām man vasai sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e.
Through perfect good fortune, the Naam comes to abide within the mind. Through the Shabad, we merge into Him.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੭॥੫੦॥
नानक सहजे ही रंगि वरतदा हरि गुण पावै सोइ ॥४॥१७॥५०॥
Nānak sėhje hī rang varaṯḏā har guṇ pāvai so▫e. ||4||17||50||
O Nanak, one who lives in intuitive peace and poise, imbued with the Lord's Love, obtains the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||4||17||50||


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 18, 2009)

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਮਤਿ ਪੰਖੇਰੂ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਸਾਥਿ ਕਬ ਉਤਮ ਕਬ ਨੀਚ ॥
मति पंखेरू किरतु साथि कब उतम कब नीच ॥
Maṯ pankẖerū kiraṯ sāth kab uṯam kab nīcẖ.
The intellect is a bird; on account of its actions, it is sometimes high, and sometimes low.

ਕਬ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਕਬ ਅਕਿ ਡਾਲਿ ਕਬ ਉਚੀ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥
कब चंदनि कब अकि डालि कब उची परीति ॥
Kab cẖanḏan kab ak dāl kab ucẖī parīṯ.
Sometimes it is perched on the sandalwood tree, and sometimes it is on the branch of the poisonous swallow-wort. Sometimes, it soars through the heavens.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਚਲਾਈਐ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਲਗੀ ਰੀਤਿ ॥੨॥
नानक हुकमि चलाईऐ साहिब लगी रीति ॥२॥
Nānak hukam cẖalā▫ī▫ai sāhib lagī rīṯ. ||2||
O Nanak, our Lord and Master leads us on, according to the Hukam of His Command; such is His Way. ||2||


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## spnadmin (Jun 18, 2009)

Amar ji

These are beautiful shabads. They say it all! Thanks for posting them.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 19, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> *Gyaniji, [/FONT]*
> *As you refer erred the arrow was shot at pavah at (The leg of Manja) in the battle of Anandpu Sahab. No Gyani ji , you are forgetting This was shot from Moti Bag Delhi to The Red fort at the pavah of Mogul emperor Bahadar shah. He by looking at the golden tipped arrow recognized and said, “Oh this is a miracle of Guru Gobind Singh.” Immediately soon after this , another arrow embedded again into the pavah, a letter was attached with it, written by Guru ji,”This is not a miracle but art of archery, and that if Guru ji wanted he could kill him but not as their was no hukam of Akal Purakh. [/FONT]*
> *Even now if a bullet is shot from any sophisticated weapon, it can not cover the said distance. That was Guru ji’s arrow. Gurudwara Moti Bag is there to remind us this historical incident of fame.[/FONT]*
> *Guru Fateh !![/FONT]*
> *Ajmer Singh Randhawa.[/FONT]*



Ajmer Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

THANK YOU JI..I stand corrected.  Much appreciated Ji.:happy:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 19, 2009)

1.  GURBANI IS ALL ABOUT THE MANN.

2. GURBANI TEACHES US HOW TO.....SILENCE...FOCUS...CONCENTRATE...CONFINE...THE MANN.
* not the body !!!!!*

3 ALL THOSE SAMADHIS, PENANCES, USING THOSE FUNNY STANDS FOR THE ARMS..OR ONE ARM UP...(SEE PHOTOS/PAINTINGS OF BABAS IN SAMADHI ETC ) ARE FOR THE body...!!! only THE body IS CONFINED..THE mann RACES FREE AS A BIRD ALL OVER THE UNIVERSE...JUMPING FROM STAR TO SUN TO PLANET..PATAAL TO INDERPUREE TO BRAHMAS NABHI..WHILE THE body sits STILL, ( ONCE i SAW A PHOTO OF  A SADHU WHO HAD SAT DOWN IN ONE PLACVE SO LONG..THAT TERMITES HAD ATTACKED AND EATEN HIS BACKSIDE/WHATEVER HE WAS SITTING ON..AND THOSE SAMDHI NAMM JAPP SUPPORTERS WENT LIKE WOW..WAH WAH AINEE NAM KAMAII..WAH WAH - BUT WE CAN ONLY SEE THE OUTER SHELL..THE BODY..WHO KNOWS WHERE HIS MANN IS AS THEY SAU KHEH KHANDAH FIRDAH ?? ANY PROOF THAT HIS MANN WAS STILL ALL THIS WHILE ??

4.THIS IS WHY THE NETIRE 1429 ANGS OF SGGS TALK ABOUT 24/7 NAMM JAPP...AND NOT ANY SIT DOWN SAMADHII....BECASUE FOR A HONEST LABOURER..HIS HANDS MUST BE WORKING..MANN CNA BE UNITED WITH GURU JI...hes got to work..to feed his family, and also share daswandh..while a VEHLARR SAADH has no worries..no wife, no children..and LOTS of CHELAS who will take all the Charrawa/goluck/offerings of Milk and kheers ghee etc from POOR HARDWORKIN LABOURERS HOUSEHOLDERS...and FEED THEIR SAADH and THEMSELVES. Such vehllarr Benares Ke Thugghs can aafford to sit idly by....BUT evne they cannot show PROOF that their MANN IS STILL !!!

5. I requested Shabads that require sitting down in one place for naam japp..NONE was provided....AMAR ji gave us naother THREE shbads that PROVE MY POINT.READ them carefully and see what GURU JI IS SAYING..MEANINGLESS CHATTER,,,kathna baad...doesnt win Guru Ji....ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
कथनी बदनी न पाईऐ हउमै विचहु जाइ ॥
Kathnī baḏnī na pā▫ī▫ai ha▫umai vicẖahu jā▫e.
*He is not obtained by mouthing mere words, but by rooting out ego from within.
* 
ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸਦ ਭੈ ਰਚੈ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੧॥
सतगुरि मिलिऐ सद भै रचै आपि वसै मनि आइ ॥१॥
Saṯgur mili▫ai saḏ bẖai racẖai āp vasai man ā▫e. ||1||
Meeting the True Guru, one is permeated forever with the Fear of God, who Himself comes to dwell within the mind. ||1||
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25205 (Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux)
In Actual Fact there are THOUSANDS of these..and NONE of the other type..not a single TUK.
ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਖੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
बिनु बूझे करम कमावणे जनमु पदारथु खोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Bin būjẖe karam kamāvṇe janam paḏārath kẖo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
*To act without understanding is to lose the treasure of this human life. ||1||Pause||:happy::happy::happy::happy:
*


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

I thought there was another thread for naam jap.

Those who read SGGS ji know that meaningless rituals have no place in sikhism. So there is no need to write an essay on that as it is irrelevant to the topic. 

I wish if the person clarifies his stand what he understands by naam jap. Gurbani stresses on each and every ang that there is no salvation without naam jap. No one is advocating that leave a householder's life for attaining that. To say that amounts to deliberate twist. However importance of nam jap can never be marginalized as Gurbani is very clear. Rehat maryada defines nam japna.


jaas japat bha-o apdaa jaa-ay.
Meditating on Him, fear and misfortune depart,
 
Dhaavat manoo-aa aavai thaa-ay.
and the wandering mind is held steady.

jaas japat fir dookh na laagai.
Meditating on Him, suffering shall never again overtake you.

jaas japat ih ha-umai bhaagai. ||2||
Meditating on Him, this ego runs away. ||2||

jaas japat vas aavahi panchaa.
Meditating on Him, the five passions are overcome.

jaas japat ridai amrit sanchaa.
Meditating on Him, Ambrosial Nectar is collected in the heart.

jaas japat ih tarisnaa bujhai.
Meditating on Him, this desire is quenched.
)
jaas japat har dargeh sijhai. ||3||
Meditating on Him, one is approved in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

jaas japat kot miteh apraaDh.
Meditating on Him, millions of mistakes are erased.

jaas japat har hoveh saaDh.
Meditating on Him, one becomes Holy, blessed by the Lord.
)
jaas japat man seetal hovai.
Meditating on Him, the mind is cooled and soothed.

jaas japat mal saglee khovai. ||4||
Meditating on Him, all filth is washed away. ||4||

jaas japat ratan har milai.
Meditating on Him, the jewel of the Lord is obtained.

bahur na chhodai har sang hilai.
One is reconciled with the Lord, and shall not abandon Him again.

jaas japat ka-ee baikunth vaas.
Meditating on Him, many acquire a home in the heavens.

jaas japat sukh sahj nivaas. ||5||
Meditating on Him, one abides in intuitive peace. ||5||

jaas japat ih agan na pohat.
Meditating on Him, one is not affected by this fire.

jaas japat ih kaal na johat.
Meditating on Him, one is not under the gaze of Death.

jaas japat tayraa nirmal maathaa.
Meditating on Him, your forehead shall be immaculate.

jaas japat saglaa dukh laathaa. ||6||
Meditating on Him, all pains are destroyed. ||6||

jaas japat muskal kachhoo na banai.
Meditating on Him, no difficulties are encountered.

jaas japat sun anhat Dhunai.
Meditating on Him, one hears the unstruck melody.

jaas japat ih nirmal so-ay.
Meditating on Him, one acquires this pure reputation.

jaas japat kamal seeDhaa ho-ay. ||7||
Meditating on Him, the heart-lotus is turned upright. ||7||
)
gur subh darisat sabh oopar karee.
The Guru has bestowed His Glance of Grace upon all,

jis kai hirdai mantar day haree.
within whose hearts the Lord has implanted His Mantra.

akhand keertan tin bhojan chooraa.
The unbroken Kirtan of the Lord's Praises is their food and nourishment.
)
kaho naanak jis satgur pooraa. ||8||2||
Says Nanak, they have the Perfect True Guru. ||8||2||


ang 236


Guru sahib says




na-o darvaajay kaa-i-aa kot hai dasvai gupat rakheejai.
The fortress of the body has nine gates; the tenth gate is kept hidden. 
bajar kapaat na khulnee gur sabad khuleejai.
The rigid door is not open; only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad can it be opened.

anhad vaajay Dhun vajday gur sabad suneejai.
The unstruck sound current resounds and vibrates there. The Word of the Guru's Shabad is heard.

tit ghat antar chaannaa kar bhagat mileejai.
Deep within the nucleus of the heart, the Divine Light shines forth. Through devotional worship, one meets the Lord.

sabh meh ayk varatdaa jin aapay rachan rachaa-ee. ||15||
The One Lord is pervading and permeating all. He Himself created the creation. ||15||


ang 954

Guru sahib says in very clear terms

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਤ ਨਾਹਿ ॥:
 Bin simaran mukti kat naahi:

 Without the meditation,  liberation will never be found 

ang 971.


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## Inder singh (Jun 19, 2009)

http://www.sikhreview.org/october2001/Naamology.htm

*Naam Mantra Jap​ **M.S. Bhatia**​ _* Address: A-2/36, Safdarjang Enclave, New Delhi. 110 029. Email: jsbhatia@mantraonline.com_
Naam Mantra jap is a spiritual practice primarily intended to bring about spiritual advancement of an individual. It consists in the person choosing a word or stanza and sitting in quiet solitude, repeating the same. Our mind, normally, has a tendency to keep on shifting from one thought to the other at random; it should be gently brought back to the process of repetition of the chosen word or stanza. The aspirant should try to listen to the _Naam mantra_ being uttered within, even though inaudible; it will help him in keeping the mind focussed on the process and thus make the _jap_ much more effective. The _mantra_ should be practiced daily for a minimum period of about half an hour, preferably twice – morning and evening. Gradually, however time for _mantra jap_ should be extended to other parts of the day so as to fill gaps or spare time between other normal activities, or when engaged on such activities as do not require any mental work e.g. bathing, dressing, walking, waiting, resting, and before sleep. 
The chosen word for the _Naam Japna_ should represent the Divine Reality or Deity of the individual according to his religious belief or the chosen stanza should reflect the ethical and spiritual values of the individual. The word is so chosen that it draws aspirant’s attention to the Spiritual Reality during the _jap_.
When _Naam mantra_ is practiced regularly for some time at conscious level, gradually the  sub-conscious takes over, and the_ jap_ goes on even when the conscious mind is engaged in other activities. As soon as a gap occurs in an activity _Naam_ will surface up at conscious level of its own. Thus the _jap_ becomes, so to say, automatic called ‘_ajapa jap_’ or _simran_. If a person goes to sleep over the _mantra_, whenever he happens to wake up at night, he will find that the _jap_ is going on in his mind.    
Gradually, this practice slows down the wandering tendency of the mind and increases the power of mental concentration of the aspirant. The practice purifies the mind and reduces the inborn tendencies for lust, anger, greed, selfishness and pride, sanctifies his outlook towards life, increases awareness, raises level of consciousness and brings about all round spiritual advancement. The aspirant becomes honest, truthful, considerate, caring, loving, kind, forgiving and humble. He gets a feeling of bliss and joy during the _jap_ and that keeps him hooked to the practice. The _mantra_ completely transforms the individual and religion becomes a part of his daily life. What is important is regularity of practice, persistence and an inner urge for self- realization. 
In the advanced stages of this practice, the aspirant should, during the course of his _Naam jap_, mentally fill his mind with God-consciousness and subjectively feel the presence of God as a Spiritual Reality within him and all around him. He begins to see ‘beauty’ and a ‘touch’ of His presence in everything around him. _Gurbani_ says:- *‘so antar so bahir anant, ghut ghut biap raiha Bhagvant.’* - that is : the same Infinite which is outside is inside you ; He is all pervading and in every being. This is what is termed as a state of communion with God. Aspirant’s concept of God also, gradually changes from Personal to Impersonal. A spiritualist addressing Him says:
   Thou Life within my life, than self more near, 
 	Thou Veiled Presence, infinitely clear,                                  
 	From all illusive shows of sense I flee,      
 	To find my Centre and my rest in Thee.                                        
How does _Naam mantra_ work? _Mantra_  slowly develops the four ‘D’s of mind-culture namely: *discrimination, determination, discipline and detachment, *as follows:- (a)  *Discrimination* – the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. *Mantra* makes the aspirant more *receptive* to the inflow of Divine Intelligence that pervades the entire universe; this inflow enhances the ability of the individual to know what is right and what is wrong, and he is thus in a position to make right choices and take correct decisions.(b) *Determination* – the ability to implement one’s decisions. For practicing _jap_ the aspirant makes use of his faculty of *will*; it is a law of life that any organ of body or faculty of mind  that is used regularly gets strengthened. In the practice of _mantra jap_ the individual makes use of his faculty of ‘will’; this enables him to strengthen his will power and to gradually extend its domain to subconscious, so as to be able to free his ‘self’ from conflicts, fears, selfishness, greed, lust and cravings which are rooted in the subconscious. (c) *Discipline *- A person with a strong will is well-disciplined and he is able to exercise better control on his mind and resist temptations. (d) *Detachment* - the ability to keep the mind off from all that is unimportant and irrelevant in life. This quality follows the earlier qualities (a), (b) and (c) An individual who is regular in practicing _mantra jap_ gets tuned to the Infinite within and gets Divine guidance  for living a good life.
 Indeed _Naam Mantra_ _jap_ as a religious practice, forms the core of most of the religions of the world, including Sikhism. There is another form of practice which makes use of the principle of *auto-suggestion*; it consists in, while sitting in a meditative pose, repeating mentally selected _shabads_, _bhajjans_, psalms, inspiring poems, passages, etc. This form of meditation brings about desirable changes in the sub-conscious. Some spiritualists recommend combining the above form of meditation for daily formal sittings in the morning and evenings and _mantra jap_ to fill gaps in normal activities during the day, whenever feasible, and at night when lying down for sleep. In Sikhism _mantra_ _jap_ is combined with recitation of _gurbani_ at personal level and listening to _shabad-kirtan_ at community level. 
*Other benefits of Naam mantra jap
*Regular practice of _Naam mantra jap_ has, apart from spiritual, many other uses and benefits. It brings about physical relaxation, slows down breathing rate, reduces blood pressure, slows down aging process and brings about a general feeling of well-being. It serves as an anti-stress measure and boosts up immune system. During illness it aids healing and promotes early recovery. Persons, who are regular in _Naam jap_, take good care of their body and, normally, enjoy a long  and healthy life. 
 The _Jaap_ promotes mental peace, increases the capacity for mental concentration and ability for putting in sustained mental work for long periods. Thus, regular practice of _Naam jap_ makes a person mentally more efficient and productive; he acquires freedom to think only of that which is of benefit to him and /or to others. When mind switches off, at random, from one thought to the other in a continuous row, lot of mental energy is wasted, _Naam_ enables an aspirant to conserve mental energy by slowing down the process  of thinking. 
 When time is hanging heavy over you and you are feeling bored, fill your mind with _Naam_ to take off the boredom. Watching TV aimlessly, just to fill time is a great drag on your mental energy and quite enervating. 
 The _Naam_ enables us to direct our attention at will from negative to positive thinking. In times of distress it enables us to take our thoughts off from worry, sorrow, pain or any nagging problem and calms down the mind. Every individual has within his subconscious, an immense reserve of creative wisdom and love; _Naam mantra_ enables us to make use of that capacity and enrich life.
 If you spend a lot of time on reading and writing, it is a good practice to rest for a short while, to close your eyes and to repeat _Naam mantra_. When you are unwell and lying in bed at home or in hospital, practice _Naam mantra_. This would take your mind off from pain, discomfort or any brooding tendency. 
 If a person has strong likes and dislikes, strong opinions and set habits, his responses become mechanical and subjective; in other words, he is a slave to his inner urges and loses his freedom of choice. His way of life, therefore, becomes unsound. He behaves as if he has no control on his mind. _Mantra_ helps him in gaining control over the mind, in making wise choices and in living a more meaningful life. Persons with strong likes and dislikes are, generally extremely self-centered and they cannot appreciate other people’s point of view. They are too rigid in their approach and personal relationships. This trait of theirs stands in their way of their growth and spiritual advancement. They are intolerant and impatient; they find it difficult to get along with others and to make adjustments where needed. They cannot co-operate with others and therefore do not get co-operation from others. They cannot undertake disagreeable jobs, however important they may be. When a person gains control over his mind, through _mantra_, he can drop a job which he likes and do a job which he dislikes, when doing so becomes necessary from consideration of some overall advantage to himself as well as to others.
 An unstable mind gets very much elated on success and depressed on meeting a failure. It is a law of life that too much elation brings a reactive depression afterwards. A stable person never goes to extremes and remains calm and tranquil under all circumstances. This ability to remain calm and steady is acquired through regular practice of _mantra jap_.  
 While concluding, it will not be an exaggeration to state that _mantra jap_ has been rightly called the *Elixir* of life. _Gurbani_ says:-* ‘Sarb rog ka aukhad naam.’* that is -  _mantra jap_ is a cure for every ill. In case of those who lead a very busy life its regular practice of even half an hour daily will bring about immense benefits, physical, mental, social, psychological and spiritual.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

*a person will drop a job he likes..for one he dislikes>>>>*..IF WAHEGURU puts him in that position..iTS saying TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGGEH...its YOUR HUKM..its YOUR WILL.
KIV kurreh tutteh paal..HUKM RAZAEE challnna...UP FRONT Guur ji has already given us how to PLEASE HIM. SO IF he gives me a job i DISLIKE...I willd o it as thats His HUKM.
Nothing to do wiyth any mantra jaap.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 20, 2009)

Gyani ji, 
being a wise person you sometimes talks abnormally. Do you know what do you mean. It is just that "Everything happens for the best."
But as you say, Guru's hukam if the job you dislike, you are provided. No Gyani ji, you are free not bonded. If you dislike you may give it up, but if a person has not any job in hand, ask him.So it's said,"Don't leave half of the bread in the hope of full."
Continuous Mantra Jaap takes you to Ajappa jaap and makes you cool to realize and take decisions. Your mind shall always be in your control.There may be the circumstances worst but shall notloose the faith upon Waheguru and then your soul will recite,"Aukhi ghari na dekhan deyin Apna birad samaale......"
Guru fateh.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyani ji,
> being a wise person you sometimes talks abnormally. Do you know what do you mean. It is just that "Everything happens for the best."
> But as you say, Guru's hukam if the job you dislike, you are provided. No Gyani ji, you are free not bonded. If you dislike you may give it up, but if a person has not any job in hand, ask him.So it's said,"Don't leave half of the bread in the hope of full."
> Continuous Mantra Jaap takes you to Ajappa jaap and makes you cool to realize and take decisions. Your mind shall always be in your control.There may be the circumstances worst but shall notloose the faith upon Waheguru and then your soul will recite,"Aukhi ghari na dekhan deyin Apna birad samaale......"
> ...



But I have yet to see any such "cool" person...even on this Forum.....so its NOT WORKING...or the Methodology is IMPERFECT.
The hottest persons are those who say Nam japp cools...but they cant show it.THEY DONT LIVE GURBANI....as our Guurs did....
AS GURU ARJUN JI showed sitting on  the HOT PLATE..He was free to leave..BUT he DIDNT..he was not BONDED to the Tavi...he sat and said Tera bhanna meetha laggeh and remained COOL...in such a hot situation...unlike many who try to push this down our throats....and when we refuse to swallow they bring the big stick...danggan and swords..or SHOUTs..disruptions of Loud Waheguru,waheguru,waheguru...?? funny way to show COOL.
Ever read about baba Bakalla..Guur Ji was COOL..while the 22 frauds sat outside..all over town..any one going around with danggan and shouting waheguru waheguur waheguur non stop to DISRUPT their Diwans...even after Bhai Found Guru ji and shouted Guur Ladho raeh..no such shouting matches ocurred...the FRAUDS wetn theri way DEFEATED...by GURU JIS COOLNESS.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 20, 2009)

Gurfateh

Salvation could be given by God without Nam Abhyas too as it is in the control of God, yet Nam abhyas could cure various problems by will of God.

Coming to Kala Afghana Ji, his picture was removed from sikhmarg.com and editor did not like his way of attacking Gurtej singh and Ragi Darshan Singh. Some of articles were also removed. A lady for Farredabad wanted the panthic unity but still many people who actually follow the saying attributed to Kala Afghana Ji, overly oppose him.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 21, 2009)

*Gyaniji, 
please don't compare we the ordinary persons with Guru Arjan Dev ji, we are just his follower. Guruji set the example to remain cool and recite thy name and surrender before th almighty God and chant Tera bhana meetha laagey...."
On the contrary, if Guru Gobind Singh ji had followed this coolness, then Sikh qaum, the down-trodden and dead nation could not be converted ainto a martial class.Dasam Patshah could sit idle and chant but the tyranny which Guru ghar and followers were facing for more than two centuries compelled him to raise weapons against the tyrants and to teach them a lesson.
Gyaniji, So far in the history, no one has ruled over Afganistan, but these are the Sikhs who not only repulsed their attacks but defeted them in their own land. 
So sometimes the coolness is considered as cowardness also.
Naam japp, gives us the strength to fight the tyrant fearlessly because at time we find Guru sadaa ANG-SANG.
Guru Fateh !!
 Ajmer Singh Randhawa.*


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

personal attack removed


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

> coming to kala afghana ji, his picture was removed from sikhmarg.com and editor did not like his way of attacking gurtej singh and ragi darshan singh. Some of articles were also removed. A lady for farredabad wanted the panthic unity but still many people who actually follow the saying attributed to kala afghana ji, overly oppose him



*please back up statements with evidence.*


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Gurfateh
Dear Brother Inder Singh Ji,

See one post on this matter below.
*(25/03/09)
* ਗੁਰਨਾਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਕੁੰਢਾਲ​  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ!
 ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ!
 ਮਾਨਯੋਗ ਗੁਰਬਖਸ਼ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ​ ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ ਤੋਂ ਹਟਾ ਦੇਣੀ ਠੀਕ ਜਾਂ ਗਲਤ?​  ਸਰਦਾਰ ਮੱਖਣ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ! ਮੇਰੀ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਨੇ ਮੈਨੰ ਹੱਥਲੀ ਚਿੱਠੀ ਲਿਖਣ ਲਈ  ਬਹੁਤ ਵਾਰੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਿਆ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਮੈਂ ਹਊ ਪਰ੍ਹੇ ਕਰਕੇ ਟਾਲੀ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹਾਂ। ਹੁਣ ਹੋਰ ਟਾਲਣਾ  ਮੁਸ਼ਕਲ ਲੱਗ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਆਪਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਚਿੱਠੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਨਾ ਲੱਗੇ ਤਾਂ ਮੁਆਫੀ ਦਾ ਜਾਚਕ ਹਾਂ।
ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ (ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਸਰਵੇ ਮੁਤਾਬਕ ਵੀ) ਸਾਰੀ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ  ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਮੈਂ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਹੁਣ ਇਹ ਇੱਕ ਪੰਥਕ ਆਦਾਰੇ ਦਾ ਪਦ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰ ਗਈ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਹਾਸਲ  ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਕਰੀਬ ਹੈ (ਪੰਥਕ ਆਦਾਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਮ ਸਿੱਖ ਵੱਖ ਵੱਖ ਦੇਸ਼ਾਂ, ਪਿੰਡਾਂ ਅਤੇ  ਸ਼ਹਿਰਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਸਦੇ, ਕਾਫੀ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਸਬੰਧੀ ਚੰਗੇ ਮਾੜੇ  ਫੈਸਲੇ ਪੰਥਕ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਪਾਉਣ ਦੇ ਕਾਬਲ ਵੀ ਸਮਝੇ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ)।
ਇਹ ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਹੋਇਆ? ਪਿਛਲੇ ਕੁੱਝ ਸਾਲਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਸੈਂਕੜੇ ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਇਸ  ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਾਈਟਾਂ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਗਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਜ ਵੀ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਜਾ ਰਹੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਇੱਕ  ਐਂਜਨੀਅਰ ਹੋਣ ਦੇ ਨਾਤੇ ਦਾਸ ਨੂੰ ਪਤਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਵੱਡੀ ਇਨਵੈਸਟਮੈਂਟ ਨਹੀਂ  ਹੁੰਦੀ, ਅਜ ਕੱਲ੍ਹ ਤਾਂ ਇੱਕ ਚੰਗੇ ਸਾਈਜ਼ ਦੀ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਸਾਲ ਦੇ ਪੰਜਾਹ ਕਨੇਡੀਅਨ ਡਾਲਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ  ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ (ਦਾਸ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਕਈ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਕਈ ਬੰਦ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਹਨ)। ਸਾਈਟ ਨੂੰ ਚਲਾਣ  ਵਿੱਚ ਰੋਜ਼ ਇੱਕ ਦੋ ਘੰਟੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਲਗਦੇ ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਸਮਾਂ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇ ਰੁਝੇਵਿਆਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਹਰ ਰੋਜ਼ ਕੱਢਣਾ  ਔਖਾ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਸਾਯੋਗ ਹੈ - ਐਨਾ ਔਖਾ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਕੱਢਿਆ ਹੀ ਨਾ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ। ਕਈਆਂ ਲਈ ਤਾਂ  ਕੰਮਪਿਊਟਰ ਤੇ ਕੰਮ ਕਰਨਾਂ ਰੀਲੈਕਸੇਸ਼ਨ ਦਾ ਸਾਧਨ ਵੀ ਹੈ।
ਕਈ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹਰ ਕੋਈ ਪੜ੍ਹਨਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਕਈਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ  ਨਹੀਂ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ, ਉਹ ਬੰਦ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਕਿਸੇ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਦਾ ਹਰਮਨ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਣ ਦਾ ਸਿਰਫ  ਅਤੇ ਸਿਰਫ ਇਕੋ ਕਾਰਨ ਇਹ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਦੀ ਸਮੱਗਰੀ ਕਿਸ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੀ ਹੈ, ਕਿੰਨੀ ਚੰਗੀ  ਹੈ, ਕਿੰਨੀ ਤਾਜ਼ੀ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਾਠਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਿੰਨੀ ਲੋੜੀਂਦੀ ਹੈ।  ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ ਦੀ ਸਮੱਗਰੀ ਪੰਥਕ ਲੈਵਲ  ਦੇ ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਸਮੱਗਰੀ ਦੇ ਸੰਦਰਭ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਾਰੇ ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੁਕਾਵਲੇ  ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਉਪਰ ਮਾਨਯੋਗ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾਂ ਜੀ ਹੀ ਸਮਝੇ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ।  ਇਸ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਦੇ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਸਮਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਾਠਕ, ਕਾਲਾ  ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਦੀ ਭਾਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਤਕ ਪੁੱਜਦੇ ਸਨ, ਪੁੱਜ ਕੇ ਜੁੜੇ  ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਸਨ ਅਤੇ ਦੂਸਰਿਆ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਦਸਦੇ ਸਨ (ਮੈਂ ਟੌਰੰਟੋ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਆਪਣੇ ਅਤੇ  ਦੂਸਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਤਜਰਬੇ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਹ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾ ਹਾਂ। ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਇੱਕ ਵਾਰ ਟੌਰੰਟੋ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ  ਚਾਰ ਪੰਜ ਸਾਲ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਾਂ)।
ਇਹ ਕੋਈ ਅੱਤ ਕਥਨੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ ਅਗਰ ਮੈਂ ਕਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮੱਤਿ ਦੀ ਜੋ  ਹਰ ਪਾਸੇ ਗੂੰਜ ਸੁਣਨੀ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਅਣਥੱਕ ਮਿਹਨਤ, ਵਿਦਵਤਾ ਅਤੇ  ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਦੇਣ ਸਦਕਾ ਹੈ। ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਦੂਸਰੇ ਮਾਨਯੋਗ ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਨੇ (ਜਿਵੇਂ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਭਾਗ ਸਿੰਘ  ਜੀ, ਪ੍ਰੋਫੈਸਰ ਦਿੱਤ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਆਦਿ) ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਾ ਬੀਜ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਸੀ, ਪਰ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਹਰਿਆ ਭਰਿਆ  ਰੁੱਖ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਸਿਹਰਾ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਹੀ ਬੱਝਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੱਗ  ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰਨ ਦੇ ਉਦਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ ਅਤੇ ਸਰਦਾਰ ਮੱਖਣ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਯੋਗਦਾਨ ਵੀ ਕਾਬਲੇ  ਗੌਰ ਹੈ।
ਹੁਣ ਮੈਂ ਅਸਲੀ ਮੁੱਦੇ ਵਲ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਕੁੱਝ ਸਮਾਂ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇੱਕ  ਪੱਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਲੇਖ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪਾਠਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਸਿਆ (ਇਹ ਪੱਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਲੇਖ ਹੁਣ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਲੱਭ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਿਹਾ)  ਕਿ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੀ ਚਿੱਠੀ ਪੱਤ੍ਰ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਅਦ, ਉਸ ਦੀ ਤਫਦੀਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਅਦ  ਅਤੇ ਸੱਚਾਈ ਲੱਭਣ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਅਦ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਤੋਂ ਉਤਾਰ ਦਿਤੀ ਹੈ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ  ਹੁਣ ਉਹ ਇਸ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਦੇ ਕਾਬਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹੇ। ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਦਸਿਆ ਕਿ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਕਰ ਸਕਣ ਦੇ  ਹੱਕਦਾਰ ਵੀ ਹੋ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਤੁਹਾਡੀ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਹੈ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਚਲਾਣ ਲਈ ਕਿਸੇ ਤੋਂ ਕੋਈ  ਮਾਲੀ ਸਹਾਇਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੈਂਦੇ, ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਜਵਾਬ ਦੇਹ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ।
ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਇਸ ਸਟੈਂਡ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਕਾਰਨਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਗਲਤ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।  ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਪੰਥ ਲਈ ਮੰਦਭਾਗਾ ਅਤੇ ਹਾਨੀਕਾਰਕ ਕਦਮ ਵੀ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸੰਖੇਪਤਾ  ਲਈ ਸਿਰਫ ਹੇਠਾਂ ਦਰਜ ਤਿੰਨ ਚਾਰ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੀ ਬਿਆਨ ਕਰਾਂਗਾ।


 
[*]ਇਹ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਪੰਥਕ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਬਣ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ ਪੰਥ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਸਟੇਜ ਤੇ  	ਲਿਆਉਣ ਲਈ ਜੋ ਮਾਇਕ ਅਤੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਦੀ ਇਨਵੈਸਟਮੈਂਟ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ ੳਸ ਦੇ ਮੁਕਾਵਲੇ ਜੋ ਸਮੇਂ  	ਦੀ ਕੀਮਤੀ ਇਨਵੈਸਟਮੈਂਟ ਲੇਖਕਾਂ ਨੇ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਕਈ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸ਼ਇਦ ਇਕੱਲੇ ਕਾਲਾ  	ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਇਨਵੈਸਟਮੈਂਟ ਹੀ ਤੁਹਾਡੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਮਾਇਕ ਅਤੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਦੀ ਕੀਮਤ ਦੇ ਮੁਕਾਵਲੇ ਕਈ  	ਗੁਣਾਂ ਹੋਵੇ। ਕਾਗਜ਼ਾਂ ਪੱਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ, ਅਗਰ ਅਸੀਂ ਇਖਲਾਕੀ ਮਾਲਕੀਅਤ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਰੀਏ  	ਤਾਂ ਮਾਲਕੀਅਤ ਦੇ ਨਜ਼ਰੀਏ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇਕੱਲੇ ਹੋਲੀ ਸੋਲੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ  	ਹੱਕਦਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ। 	
[*]ਜੋ ਪੈਮਾਨਾ ਜਾਂ ਢੰਗ ਤਰੀਕਾ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਤਫਦੀਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਵਾਰੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕੁੱਝ  	ਨਹੀਂ ਦਸਿਆ। ਸਵਾਲ ਉਠਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਪੈਮਾਨਾ ਠੀਕ ਵੀ ਹੈ? ਕੀ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਐਸਾ ਪੈਮਾਨਾ ਵਰਤਣ  	ਦਾ ਤਜਰਬਾ ਜਾਂ ਹੱਕ ਵੀ ਹੈ? ਸਾਰਾ ਪੰਥ, ਵਿਦਾਂਤੀ, ਬਾਦਲ ਅਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਐਸੇ ਆਗੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਆਪ  	ਹੁਦਰੇ ਫੈਸਲਿਆਂ (ਅੱਜ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਕ ਦਿੱਤਾ, ਕੱਲ੍ਹ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਨੂੰ) ਵਾਰੇ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤ ਰੌਲਾ  	ਪਾਉਂਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਜ ਵੀ ਪਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਕੀ ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਉਸੇ ਮੇਲ ਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ?  	ਐਸੇ ਵਰਤਾਰਿਆਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੀ ਤਾਂ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਹਿਰਦ, ਸੂਝਵਾਨ ਅਤੇ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪੰਥਕ ਕੰਮਾਂ ਤੋਂ  	ਦੂਰ ਭੱਜਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਇੱਕ ਵੱਡਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੈ ਪੰਥ ਦੀ ਅੱਜ ਦੀ ਦੁਰਦਸ਼ਾ ਵਾਲੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਦਾ। ਪੰਥਕ  	ਮਾਮਲੇ, ਪੰਥਕ ਰਿਵਾਇਤਾਂ, ਕਦਰਾਂ ਕੀਮਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਤੇ ਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਨਿਪਟਾਏ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ  	ਹਨ। ਇਸੇ ਲਈ ਹੀ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਦੀ, ਸੰਗਤ ਦੀ ਅਤੇ ਸਰਬੱਤ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਥਾ ਸਾਡੇ ਗੁਰੂਆਂ  	ਅਤੇ ਵਡੇਰਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਉੱਤਮ ਦਰਸਾਈ ਹੈ। 	
[*]ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ (ਜੋ ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮੂਵਮੈਂਟ ਦੇ ਬਾਨੀ ਸਮਝੇ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ) ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ  	ਨੂੰ ਇੱਕ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਵੀ ਨਾ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੀ ਸੁਨੇਹਾ ਦਿਤਾ ਹੈ।  	ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਨਵੇਂ ਅਭਿਲਾਸ਼ੀ (ਪੁਰਾਣੇ ਵੀ) ਤਾਂ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹਨ  	ਦੇ ਯੋਗ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਣਗੇ ਅਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਨਗੇ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ। ਪਰ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਮੰਨ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ  	ਕਿ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਈ ਨੁਕਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਠੀਕ ਹਨ। ਕੀ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਫੇਸਲੇ  	ਰਾਹੀਂ ਅਣਜਾਣੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮੱਤਿ ਦੀਆਂ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਚੰਗੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ  	ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਦੀ ਵਕਾਲਤ ਤਾਂ ਨਹੀ ਕਰ ਦਿਤੀ? 	
[*]ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪੰਥਕ ਹਸਤੀ ਬਣ ਜਾਣਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਚਾਰਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੈ, ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ  	ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੈ। ਨਾਂ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਐਸੇ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਹਨ ਜੋ ਕਦੀ ਛੋਟੀ ਮੋਟੀ ਗਲਤੀ  	ਕਰ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੇ। ਹਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮੇਰੀਆਂ ਤੁਹਾਡੀਆਂ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ  	ਪ੍ਰਵਾਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ। ਪਰ ਵੱਡੀਆਂ ਸ਼ਕਸ਼ੀਅਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਛੋਟੇ ਮੋਟੇ ਐਬ ਲੋਗ ਦੂਰਬੀਨਾਂ ਰਾਹੀਂ  	ਲੱਭਦੇ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਝੂਠੇ ਦੋਸ਼ ਵੀ ਲਗਾ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਵਿਸ਼ੇ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੱਤਿ ਬਹੁਤ  	ਚਾਨਣਾਂ ਪਾਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਦਸਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਹਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਗਲਤੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਭੁੱਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਿਰਫ ਗੁਰੂ  	ਅਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੀ ਅਭੁੱਲ ਹਨ। ਗੁਰਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਐਸੀਆਂ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੁਆਫ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼  	ਹੈ, ਨਾਂ ਕਿ ਜ਼ਲੀਲ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ। ਸਰਦਾਰ ਮੱਖਣ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਵਰਗੀਆਂ ਸ਼ਖਸ਼ੀਅਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ  	ਘਟੀਆ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ ਤਦ ਹੀ ਜਾਇਜ਼ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਸਾਬਤ ਕਰ ਸਕੀਏ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ  	ਗੁਰਮੱਤਿ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਾਇਦੇ ਲਈ ਕੌਮ ਅਤੇ ਧਰਮ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਮਰਾਹ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ  	ਮੰਤਵ ਨਾਲ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਉਹ ਆਰ ਐਸ ਐਸ ਵਰਗੀਆਂ ਸੰਸਥਾਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੱਥ ਕੰਡੇ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਸਿੱਖੀ  	ਸਿਧਾਂਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੰਧਲਾ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਪਰ ਇਸ ਵਾਰੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਖੁਦ ਹੀ ਮੰਨ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ  	ਦੇ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਦੀ ਬੇਹਤਰੀ ਵਾਲੇ ਹੀ ਹਨ। 
 ਹੋਰ ਵਿਸਥਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਲਿਖਣ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਰੂਰਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਦਾ। ਤੁਸੀਂ ਆਪ ਬਹੁਤ  	ਸਿਆਣੇ ਅਤੇ ਸੁੱਲਝੇ ਹੋਏ ਗੁਰਮੁੱਖ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੋ। ਪੰਥ ਲਈ ਕੀ ਚੰਗਾ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਲੋਂ  	ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਖੁਦ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਹੋਵੋਗੇ। ਪਰ ਫਿਰ ਵੀ ਮੈਂ ਕੁੱਝ ਸੁਝਾ ਦੇਂਣਾ ਚਾਹਾਂਗਾ। ਪੰਥ ਦੇ  	ਵੱਡੇ ਹਿੱਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੁੱਖ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ `ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਗਈ ਗਲਤੀ ਦਾ ਅਹਿਸਾਸ  	ਕਰੋ। ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਮੁਆਫੀ ਮੰਗੋ ਅਤੇ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਹਾਲ ਕਰੋ। ਇਹ ਕਰ  	ਸਕਣ ਲਈ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਈਗੋ (ਹਉਮੈਂ) ਛੱਡਣੀ ਪਵੇਗੀ। ਇਹ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਸੌਖਾ ਹੈ, ਕਰਨਾ  	ਬਹੁਤ ਔਖਾ। ਜੇ ਕਰ ਸਕੋਂ ਤਾਂ ਤੁਸੀ ਪੰਥ ਦੀ ਵੱਡੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤਾਂ ਕਰੋਗੇ ਹੀ, ਪਰ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਆਪਣਾ  	ਕੱਦ ਹੋਰ ਵੀ ਉੱਚਾ ਕਰ ਲਵੋਗੇ। ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਹਾਲ ਕਰਕੇ ਅਗਰ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਚਾਹੋਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਵੈਬ ਸਾਈਟ  	ਨਾਲ ਜੁੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਵੀ ਸਲਾਹ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹੋ- ਇਹ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਕਿ ਕੀ ਪੰਥਕ  	ਰੀਤਾਂ ਰਿਵਇਤਾਂ ਮੁਤਾਬਕ ਕਾਲਾ ਅਫਗਾਨਾ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਕੋਈ ਘੋਰ ਪਾਪ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ। ਅਗਰ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਕਹਿਣ  	ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਹਟਾ ਦੇਣੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਹਟਾ ਦੇਵੋ। ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਦੁੱਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ। ਹੁਣ  	ਦੁਖ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਬੇਇਨਸਾਫੀ ਹੋਈ ਲੱਗਦੀ ਹੈ। ਸਿੱਖ ਧਰਮ ਦੀ ਬੁਨਿਆਦ ਅਜ਼ਾਦੀ,  	ਇਨਸਾਫ ਅਤੇ ਹੱਕ ਤੇ ਉਸਾਰੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਬੇਇਨਸਾਫੀ ਚੁੱਪ ਵੱਟ ਕੇ ਸਹਿਣੀ ਔਖੀ  	ਹੈ।
ਇਹ ਚਿੱਠੀ ਮੈਂ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਲਈ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੈ। ਕਿਸੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਵੈਬ  ਸਾਈਟ ਤੇ ਜਨਤਕ ਨਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੋਂ ਤਾਂ ਤੁਹਾਡੀ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਹੈ। ਕਰ ਦੇਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਫਾਇਦਾ ਇਹ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਕਿ  ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਘਟਨਾ ਤੋਂ ਕੁੱਝ ਸਿੱਖ ਸਕੀਏ।
ਭੁੱਲ ਚੁੱਕ ਮੁਆਫ ਕਰਨੀ ਜੀ!
ਗੁਰਨਾਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਕੁੰਢਾਲ
(ਸੰਪਾਦਕ ਵਲੋਂ ਜਵਾਬ:- ਗੁਰਨਾਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ, ‘ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ’ ਤੇ ਨਿਰੋਲ ਸੱਚੋ  ਹੀ ਸੱਚ ਨਿਬੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ਵਰਤਾਓ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇੱਥੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ/ਲਿਖਾਰੀ/ਪਾਠਕ ਨਾਲ ਇੱਕ ਰਾਈ  ਮਾਤਰ ਵੀ ਫਰਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਪਰ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਇੱਥੇ ਨਾ ਤਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਧੌਂਸ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ  ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਨਾ ਹੀ ਝੱਲੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਹਾਂ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਡੀ ਅਤੇ ਜਰੂਰੀ ਗੱਲ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇੱਥੇ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਆ  ਕੇ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੇ ਹੱਕ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ, ਵਿਚਾਰ ਜਰੂਰ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਕੋਈ  ਛੋਟ ਨਹੀਂ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਕਿੱਡਾ ਵੱਡਾ, ਸੰਤ ਮਹੰਤ, ਪੁਜਾਰੀ ਡੇਰੇਦਾਰ ਜਾਂ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਕਿਉਂ ਨਾ  ਹੋਵੇ। ਗੁਰਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਾਲੇ ਅਫਗਾਨੇ ਨੂੰ ਮੈਂ ਕਾਫੀ ਦੇਰ ਦਾ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ ਮਿਲਿਆਂ ਹਾਂ  ਅਤੇ ਫੂਨ ਤੇ ਵੀ ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਕੁੱਝ ਦਿਨ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਵੀ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਹਟੀ ਹੈ। ਮੈਂ  ਇਸ ਦੇ ਹੱਕ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਉਦੋਂ ਡਟ ਕੇ ਖੜਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਸੀ ਜਦੋਂ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਛੇਕਿਆ  ਸੀ ਅਤੇ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਸਾਥ ਛੱਡ ਗਏ ਸਨ। ਛੇਕੇ ਜਾਣ ਤੋਂ ਕੁੱਝ ਦਿਨ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਵੀ ਮੈਂ ‘ਸਿੱਖ  ਮਾਰਗ’ ਤੇ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਬੇਖੌਫ ‘ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ’ ਤੇ ਛਪਦੀਆਂ ਰਹਿਣਗੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਹੁਣ  ਤੱਕ ਛਪਦੀਆਂ ਰਹੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਦੀ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਮਾੜੀ ਆਦਤ ਜੋ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਾਨ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ  ਬਾਰੇ ਲਿਖਦਾ ਲਿਖਦਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਨੇੜੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਘਟੀਆ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਵਲੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਭੰਡਣਾ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ  ਕਰ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਮਿਸਾਲਾਂ ਮੇਰੇ ਕੋਲ ਹਨ। ਹੁਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਜਿਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਸਭ  ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਪ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਾਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੀ ਉਹ ਸੀ ਹਰਦੇਵ ਸਿੰਘ ਸ਼ੇਰਗਿੱਲ ਬਾਰੇ ਘਟੀਆ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਵਲੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਤੇ ਉਹ  ਗੱਲ ਵੀ ਸੱਚੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ। ਮੈਂ ਅੱਜ ਤੱਕ ਕਦੀ ਵੀ ਸ਼ੇਰਗਿੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪਰ ਫੂਨ ਤੇ ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ  ਗੱਲ ਜਰੂਰ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ। ਮੇਰਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਖਿਆਲ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਕਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਘਟੀਆ ਗੱਲ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਵੇ।  ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਸੱਚ ਹੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਿਤਾਬਾਂ ਛਪਵਾਉਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਯੋਗਦਾਨ ਉਸ  ਦਾ ਹੀ ਹੋਵੇ। ਤੁਹਾਡੀ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੋਈ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਵੀ ਗਲਤ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਫੋਟੋ ਤਾਂ ਹਟਾਈ ਹੈ  ਕਿ ਉਹ ਹੁਣ ਇਸ ਵੈੱਬ ਸਾਈਟ ਦੇ ਕਾਬਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹੇ। ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ 14 ਫਰਵਰੀ ਦਾ ਨੋਟ ਦੁਬਾਰਾ  ਪੜ੍ਹੋ। ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਵੀ ਠੀਕ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਕੁੱਝ ਕਾਲੇ ਅਫਗਾਨੇ ਨੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਬਾਰੇ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਹੋਰ ਕਿਸੇ  ਨੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮੁਕਾਬਲੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਘੱਟ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੀਆਂ  ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੀ ‘ਸਿੱਖ ਮਾਰਗ’ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਆਦਾ ਲੋਕ ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਲੱਗੇ ਹਨ। ਜੇ ਕਰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਤਾਂ  ਉਸ ਦੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਵੀ ਇੱਕ ਸਾਈਟ ਬਣਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਪੂਰੀਆਂ ਕਿਤਾਬਾਂ ਵੀ ਪਾਈਆਂ  ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਪਪੂਲਰ ਹੋਣੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਸੀ। ਸ਼ਪਸ਼ਟੀਕਰਨ ਤਾਂ ਮੈਂ ਹੋਰ ਵੀ ਵਿਸਥਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ  ਦੇਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦਾ ਸੀ ਪਰ ਸਮਾ ਇਜ਼ਾਜਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਦਿੰਦਾ। ਰਾਤ ਦੇ ਦਸ ਵੱਜ ਚੱਲੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਸੌਣ ਦਾ ਟਾਈਮ  ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਅੰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਮੈਂ ਇਹੀ ਕਹਿਣਾਂ ਚਾਹੁੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਜੇ ਕਰ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਦੁੱਧ  ਦਾ ਦੁੱਧ ਅਤੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਨਿਖਰ ਜਾਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰਤੇਜ ਸਿੰਘ ਅਤੇ ਕਾਲੇ ਅਫਗਾਨੇ ਨੂੰ ਪੁੱਛ ਲਓ  ਅਤੇ ਇਹਨਾ ਵਲੋਂ ਜੋ ਚਿੱਠੀਆਂ ਇੱਕ ਦੂਸਰੇ ਨੂੰ ਲਿਖੀਆਂ ਗਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਉਹ ਮੈਂ ਦੋਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਪਾ ਦਿੰਦਾ  ਹਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਫਿਰ ਇਹਨਾ ਦੇ ਜਵਾਬ ਦੇ ਜਵਾਬ ਵੀ ਪਾ ਦੇਵਾਂਗਾ ਕੌਣ ਸੱਚਾ ਅਤੇ ਕੌਣ ਝੂਠਾ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਦਾ  ਨਿਤਾਰਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ ਪਰ ਸੱਚ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹਨਾ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਖਿੱਲੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਡੇਗੀ।  ਅਤੇ ਇਹ ਮੁਹਾਵਰਾ ਵੀ ਪੂਰਾ ਢੁਕੇਗਾ, "ਕੁੱਕੜ ਖੇਹ ਉਡਾਈ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਿਰ ਪਾਈ"। ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ ਜੋ ਫੈਸਲਾ  ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਵਾਰ ਵਾਲੇ ਕਰਨਗੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਮਨਜੂਰ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ)



Your self  can go to this link and see the letters and posting further later then this one also from archive.





for give das for any mistake.Akal Bless you.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Gurfateh

Link was posted above but not working so let us try this
?????? ???? ???? (Your view)


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> *Gyaniji,
> please don't compare we the ordinary persons with Guru Arjan Dev ji, we are just his follower. Guruji set the example to remain cool and recite thy name and surrender before th almighty God and chant Tera bhana meetha laagey...."
> On the contrary, if Guru Gobind Singh ji had followed this coolness, then Sikh qaum, the down-trodden and dead nation could not be converted ainto a martial class.Dasam Patshah could sit idle and chant but the tyranny which Guru ghar and followers were facing for more than two centuries compelled him to raise weapons against the tyrants and to teach them a lesson.
> Gyaniji, So far in the history, no one has ruled over Afganistan, but these are the Sikhs who not only repulsed their attacks but defeted them in their own land.
> ...



Ajmer Singh ji..
Gurafteh.

I DONT BUY THAT.
Guru Ji Himself declared..AApeh GUR CHELA.
NO OTHER RELIGION HAS THIS..the EVERLASTING MIRACLE !!!
Just take a LOOK at..HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS...of GURSIKHS....
PERFECTLY COOL...and saying TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGGEH..
REMEBER....Bhai Mati Dass..being sawn into TWO...
bhai SATI DASS..being BURNED ALIVE....
Bhai Dyala Ji..BOILING ALIVE like  aPotato..recitign Japji Sahib..
BHai Taru Singh with MISSING SCALP...
BHai mani Singh being CUT from LIMB to LIMB..JOINT by JOINT...
Sahibzadahs standing tall inside the WALLS
Sahibzadahs fighting the thousands outside Chamkaur..
the LIST IS ENDLESS.... UNCOUNTABLE....like the STARS..

GURU JI MADE US EXACTLY LIKE HIMSELF. First example.. Ordinary BHAI Lehna ji became ANGADD..LIMB of Guru nanak Ji.....EXACT CARBON COPY....and then the PHOTOSTAT MACHINE went into OVER DRIVE....1984 the EXACT SAME SINGHS faced the MIGHTY Indian Army/Air Force...one of the Modern Worlds biggest Armed Forces..and REPEATED CHAMKAUR SAHIB !!!

The MOST FEEBLE EXCUSE..OH..taan GURU hai..Akal Purakh ki Jyot hai..Hona hee see...BUT FACTS SHOW the EXACT OPPOSITE....ANY of the Hundreds of thousands of Sikh Shaeeds would have SAT on Hot Plates...and repeated Tera Bhanna Meetha Laggeh....the DEATHS they went through are not an iota different/less painful/in any way LESSer than that of GURU JI...its DEMEANING THOSE SIKHS to say such nonsense.

WEAK SIKHS find excuses....plenty of them around...aseen kehrra Guur haan..assen taan sikh haan...guur dee rees kaun kar sakdah ?? FACT..REES GURU NE SIKHAYEE HAI..ate lakhan sikhna ne rees karke shsheedean payeehan.:whisling::whisling::whisling:


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 21, 2009)

Gyani ji, i regard you for truthfulness, yes i agree. If i follow Guru i shall have to go on his shown path. Yes quite true. 
In my previous mail i said if Guru Gobind singh ji also had choosen the path of coolness, of Tera bhaana meetha laage.....There could not be the martial Khalsa as to-day . For your kind information, out ten the most famous battles, three are fought by Sikhs. That is the valor of Sikhs. Don't forget the battle of Saragarhi, In which only 21 Sikh soldiers gave up their life, fighting 10.000 Afridi Pathans,but fought the battle until their last breath.
So while getting die in battlefield is also with the hukam of Akal Purakh. Guru Gobind Singh ji also wished so,"Jab aao ki audh nidan bane At hi ran main tab jujh maron."
I mean the time compelled Guruji to change the strategy and raise weapons and to become the Sant Sipahi. This could be possible by the grace of Akal Purakh, by chanting his name. In every win Guruji said,"Inhi ki kirpa ke saje ham hain Nahin mose garib karor pare !!" It was his thans to Wahegur -Sadaa ANG-SANG by Naam japp, and Naam simran of Waheguruji.
Regards and Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Ajmer Singh ji..
> Gurafteh.
> 
> I DONT BUY THAT.
> ...



Giani ji

A sikh does not listen to nindya of his Guru.


Gur ki ninda sune na kaan-------

A sikh is not a followe of Mahatma gandhi who will offer his other cheek when slapped on first one. We are sikhs of guru gobind singh ji. So the language of bullying being resorted to by some members will be met in with same type of response.


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

Inder ji

Where exactly is the nindya? Let us not default to the "call-nindya" strategy when other lines of argument more befitting a Singh of the Guru are available to us.


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

To dispute the bani of our Guru sahib is nindya.


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Ajmer Singh ji..
> Gurafteh.
> 
> I DONT BUY THAT.
> ...



Inder ji

I have re-quoted the comments that you have yourself quoted. Where is the nindya in that statement? The conversation has been going around in circles and the thread is now under consideration to be closed. Unless we can move on to a new level and to something different, a different angle, there is no point in continuing. aad0002


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Inder Singh Ji and Ajmer Singh ji,
Gurfateh.

You MISSED the entire point.
COOL..and Tera Bhanna Meetha Laggeh has got nothing to do with Mahatma Gandhi..non-violence..turning this cheek or that cheek..I Put you on the HIGHWAY..and both go into the village paath..pagdandees..winding here and there..

How could you MISS the Line about the Sahibzadehs outside the Walls of CHAMKAUR ??

How can THAT be Mahatma Gandhi..non violence..turning the other cheek (this is from the Bible and I never quote from outside sources as i LOVE and consider my Guru SGGS SARAB KALA SAMPOORAN but since YOU quoted it i retained it )....COOL and Tera Bhanna Meetha Laggeh means COOL at ALL TIMES.
Read Guur Jis History...every single ATTACKER..Hamlawaar..was Directed by Guru Ji..PEHLA VAAR..YOU ATTACK FIRST...and...and Guru Ji would ALWAYS.DEFEND and THEN REPLY....EVERY SINGLE TIME..Reda GURU HARGOBIND JIS HISTORY,,READ GURU GOBIND SINGH JIS HISTORY..READ Baba Banda Singh, Read Baba deep Singh ...ANY SIKH GENERAL..all COOL and CALM...!!!

WHY ?? BECAUSE to a SIKH ( and Guru Ji taught us that) the REAL BATTLEFIELD IS THE MIND !!! Guru Arjun Ji Sahib sitting on the HOT PLATE is DOING EXACT SAME THING AS GURU HARGOBIND JI FACING PAINDEH KHAN IN BATTLE. BOTH GURUS ARE IN BATTLE....battle of the MIND..in Guur Arjun jis case Guur Ji INVITED Chandu to make the First Attack...pehla vaar...and Guur Ji REPLIED APPROPRIATELY...and DIDNT CHANDU also DIE a Most horrible death ?? Did Chandu WIN ?? NO..He LOST just like Paindeh Khan !!..EVIL and Tyranny ALWAYS LOSE..TRUTH ALWAYS WINS.

Similarly the TATT GURMATT is declaring Pehla Vaar...and like the example of Guru Arjun Ji..we await the suitable REPLY..as the TRUTH will always TRIUMPH. Carrying Danggan, unsheathed swords, shouting waheguru and disrupting Diwans in total disregard of SGGS present there..and similar rowdiness..is DEFEAT agaisnt TRUTH. Once More a BATTLE of the MINDS..Battle FOR the MINDS is Going on....and ONLY TRUTH will emerge the VICTOR..and  FALSEHOOD of Chandus and Aurangas etc will FAIL eventually.

A TRUE SIKH will always remain COOL..in household duties, in Gurdawara sangat, in work place, in Discussion, in Debate, In Postings on Forums, no matter where, in whatever situation...Losing COOL is declaring.........I LOSE. .....SURRENDER.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

Here is Bhagat Kabir Ji..on those who are Deaf dumb blind etc..and HOW SATGUR shoots them with his LOVE ARROW...the SATGUR has the POWER....to touch anyone in any condition...we should only worry about OURSELVES.....
ਕਬੀਰ ਗੂੰਗਾ ਹੂਆ ਬਾਵਰਾ, ਬਹਰਾ ਹੂਆ ਕਾਨ॥ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਤੇ ਪਿੰਗੁਲ ਭਇਆ,  ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਨ॥ 193॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੂਰਮੇ, ਬਾਹਿਆ ਬਾਨੁ ਜੁ ਏਕੁ॥ ਲਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਭੁਇ ਗਿਰਿ  ਪਰਿਆ, ਪਰਾ ਕਰੇਜੇ ਛੇਕੁ॥ 194॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1374} Page 1374


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 21, 2009)

ਕਬੀਰ ਗੂੰਗਾ ਹੂਆ ਬਾਵਰਾ, ਬਹਰਾ ਹੂਆ ਕਾਨ॥ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਤੇ ਪਿੰਗੁਲ ਭਇਆ,  ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਨ॥ 193॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੂਰਮੇ, ਬਾਹਿਆ ਬਾਨੁ ਜੁ ਏਕੁ॥ ਲਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਭੁਇ ਗਿਰਿ  ਪਰਿਆ, ਪਰਾ ਕਰੇਜੇ ਛੇਕੁ॥ 194॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1374}
Page 1374Kabeer, I have become *mute, insane and deaf*.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194|

THIS is the POWER of SATGURU to touch anyone in any condition..deaf mute blind crippled whatever...


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 21, 2009)

Gyaniji, 
Inder singh is a wise person then me, he can certainly give you a befitted reply with Gurbaani quotients but i see you as a Hippocratic. You are talking two things at a time. Coolness is very good i agree. Painde khan was given three chances not one. Guru Arjan Dev ji has taught the coolness but who else can sit on hot plate. This was made  possible by his meditation and continuous naam japp and simran of Akal Purakh.
For example Baba Atal Rai ji left to Sachkhand in no time. By hukam of his father this young boy/sorry the kid immediately went into meditation and left this materialistic world. Similarly there are the instances of Sahibjade in Chamkaur. Can't you get anything done by fear of a slap from any kid of that age. Yes ! you can but those were highly blessed souls appeared to complete the task and to share the path of truth. They were well aware of the Dasam Dwar- the door to sachkhand hence they could not be forced to convert. The secret of Baba Deep Singhji, Bhia Mani Singh ji, Baba Banda Bahadar ji, Bhai Sati Das ji, Bhai mati das ji, the list is endless. All were blessed by Waheguru ji as they were close to, by meditation and Naam simran and japp.
Guru Gobind Singh ji, he always dedicated his life to Waheguru-Akal Purakh. He said,"Kharag ket ko aasro Ik ridey hamaarey !! Mahaj bharosa Prabhu ka Nar kiaa vechaare !! 
By the hukam of Akal Purakh he baptized Khalsa and the shastra-KIRPAN  was made essential part of a Khalsa's life.
Regards and Guru fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 21, 2009)

Gyaniji,
 the definition given by you is away from the true meanings.
Here is Bhagat Kabir Ji..on those who are Deaf dumb blind etc..and HOW SATGUR shoots them with his LOVE ARROW.
What were the results of shooting that arrow? What do you mean of it.
Whereas i translate is By the grace(The baan-arrow) of Guru the deaf and dumbness of   5 taskars are killed and I am now free of them. My lust and all other avgun are no more. By his just one sight of love and grace, i have got the pleasure of his Naam simran and japp.
Regards and Guru fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

Ajmer ji

In this line from Kabir

ਕਬੀਰ ਗੂੰਗਾ ਹੂਆ ਬਾਵਰਾ, ਬਹਰਾ ਹੂਆ ਕਾਨ॥ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਤੇ ਪਿੰਗੁਲ ਭਇਆ, ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਨ॥ 193॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੂਰਮੇ, ਬਾਹਿਆ ਬਾਨੁ ਜੁ ਏਕੁ॥ ਲਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਭੁਇ ਗਿਰਿ ਪਰਿਆ, ਪਰਾ ਕਰੇਜੇ ਛੇਕੁ॥ 194॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1374}
Page 1374Kabeer, I have become *mute, insane and deaf*.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow



Gyani's giaan is the correct giaan. 

The seloka does not say anything about the 5 thieves. If that were the intent Kabir would have said that. The entire seloka, which Gyani ji has given above, is about being overtaken by His Love, taken over heart, soul, mind and body to the Satguru. To be overwhelmed with love for him the Piaaraa. To become crippled, speechless, blinded by the experience, and render senseless. The idea of the glance of His Grace, which we read in many places in Gurbani, is what is termed a poetic allusion to the glance of an arrow. His Grace penetrates like an Arrow. 

Gyani ji forgive me for being so presumptuous as to pass judgement on your vichaar.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 21, 2009)

Aad ji, 
Thanks for shading your views but what i NIMAANA could understand, i wrote. Let us wait what others comment.(Not to be published-just remove)
Regards and Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh randhawa.


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

You are welcome Ajmerji and we are thankful to have Gyani's giaan.


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## Inder singh (Jun 21, 2009)

> ਲਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਭੁਇ ਗਿਰਿਪਰਿਆ, ਪਰਾ ਕਰੇਜੇ ਛੇਕੁ



The above line  is important and means when Satguru struck me with arrow i fell on the ground. That means i got rid of my ego or became humble. Ego is the biggest of five thieves.


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## spnadmin (Jun 21, 2009)

There is another shabad, Inder ji, where you are correct. This is not the correct part of Gurbani for that vichaar. Everytime an arrow is shot in Sri Guru Granth Sahib  - the Guru is not talking about ego.


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

aad ji

The line quoted by me is from the lines giani ji had written

*ਲਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਭੁਇ ਗਿਰਿਪਰਿਆ, ਪਰਾ ਕਰੇਜੇ ਛੇਕੁ* 
Quote of Giani ji



> ਕਬੀਰ ਗੂੰਗਾ ਹੂਆ ਬਾਵਰਾ, ਬਹਰਾ ਹੂਆ ਕਾਨ॥ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਤੇ ਪਿੰਗੁਲ ਭਇਆ, ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਨ॥ 193॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੂਰਮੇ, ਬਾਹਿਆ ਬਾਨੁ ਜੁ ਏਕੁ॥ ਲਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਭੁਇ ਗਿਰਿ ਪਰਿਆ, ਪਰਾ ਕਰੇਜੇ ਛੇਕੁ॥ 194॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1374}
> Page 1374Kabeer, I have become *mute, insane and deaf*.
> I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow
> Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25205 (Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux)
> ...


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## spnadmin (Jun 22, 2009)

Inderji

That is the line...Kabir ji is pierced in his heart, not in his munn.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Gyaniji,
> Inder singh is a wise person then me, he can certainly give you a befitted reply with Gurbaani quotients but i see you as a Hippocratic. You are talking two things at a time. Coolness is very good i agree. Painde khan was given three chances not one. Guru Arjan Dev ji has taught the coolness but who else can sit on hot plate. This was made  possible by his meditation and continuous naam japp and simran of Akal Purakh.
> For example Baba Atal Rai ji left to Sachkhand in no time. By hukam of his father this young boy/sorry the kid immediately went into meditation and left this materialistic world. Similarly there are the instances of Sahibjade in Chamkaur. Can't you get anything done by fear of a slap from any kid of that age. Yes ! you can but those were highly blessed souls appeared to complete the task and to share the path of truth. They were well aware of the Dasam Dwar- the door to sachkhand hence they could not be forced to convert. The secret of Baba Deep Singhji, Bhia Mani Singh ji, Baba Banda Bahadar ji, Bhai Sati Das ji, Bhai mati das ji, the list is endless. All were blessed by Waheguru ji as they were close to, by meditation and Naam simran and japp.
> Guru Gobind Singh ji, he always dedicated his life to Waheguru-Akal Purakh. He said,"Kharag ket ko aasro Ik ridey hamaarey !! Mahaj bharosa Prabhu ka Nar kiaa vechaare !!
> ...


Guru Piayrio Jios,
Gurfateh.

Its your perogrative to your opinion. Being a HYPOCRITE is not my intention at all. (btw Hippocratic word is name of person and the OATH named after him is taken by Medical Doctors..called Hippocratic Oath - hypocrite is a different word)
BUT to call another GURSIKH "Hypocrite"  BHEKHI is NOT GURMATT. That much I KNOW as per the stage of whaever pad i have reached...you are obviously at Chautha pad or even higher as you can see in to my heart and see my hypocracy.
You MISSED my POST by more than a HUNDRED MILES.
As for being "wise"...simply CUTTING and PASTING from Intenret sources deosnt convey any wisdom..own INTERPRETATION in ones OWN WORDS is needed.
Please keep in Chardeekalla always..
Jarnail Singh


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 22, 2009)

Aadji, Inder singh ji has also approved what i wrote. I may not be able to describe in high litrarte of English but the meanings i get by the grace of Akal Purakh, i quote. I am sure i am right. Guru ji has blessed me to follow,
When the Granth was compiled a Sikh asked Guruji that who would be able to understand it and define it. Guru Arjan Dev ji replied,"Baani lao beecharsi je ko Gurmukh hoye."
Regards and Guru fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 22, 2009)

Gyani ji I feel sorry if i meant calling you Bhekhi. no Gyaniji, you are very well aware what i meant to. I meant you speak two languages simultaneously-The coolness and martialness. I have called you wise also in my mails. That is a regard so don't be jealous but come to practical grounds of reality on discussion.Don't distract.
I have a good understanding of your language and the post, so i am not missed. I assure you. Regards and Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Aadji, Inder singh ji has also approved what i wrote. I may not be able to describe in high litrarte of English but the meanings i get by the grace of Akal Purakh, i quote. I am sure i am right. Guru ji has blessed me to follow,
> When the Granth was compiled a Sikh asked Guruji that who would be able to understand it and define it. Guru Arjan Dev ji replied,"Baani lao beecharsi je ko Gurmukh hoye."
> Regards and Guru fateh !!
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.



Guru Paiayrio Jios, Gurfateh.

At SPN..high/low literacy etc is of no consequence at all. THAT is why we always encourage every poster to WRITE IN HIS OWN WORDS..what he/she UNDERSTANDS Gurbani...and we discourage copycats/cut and paste artists/remix composers !!
English is the main Language..BUT as long as all can get the gist of what is being said its OK..not everyone is having English as First langauge or bilingual but many are trilingual and even four five langauges...no one is discriminated on taht account.
OF course you are right...and you are welcome to what you understand...Bani birla veech{censored}e is applicable to ALL..and GURMUKHS...we all are/not is up to Guru Ji to judge. Just that we DONT PUSH our own understanding on everybody else...bring the horse to water..BUT DONT DROWN HIM...trying to make him DRINK.

Keep in Chardeekalla Jios..:}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}:


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Inderji
> 
> That is the line...Kabir ji is pierced in his heart, not in his munn.



It does not alter the meaning.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

Inder Singh Ji,

It doesnt change anything..kahia sir mathe parnala utheh da utheh...


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## spnadmin (Jun 22, 2009)

Just to belabor the point --- 

Here are 3 different ways in which and "arrow" is shot by Guruji -- who is always very clear in His meaning.

Page449 Line 1  Raag Aasaa: Guru Ram Das

  ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਅਣੀਆਲੇ ਅਣੀਆ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥
  har praem baanee man maariaa aneeaalae aneeaa raam raajae ||
   The Bani of the Lord's Love is the pointed arrow, which has pierced my mind, O Lord King.

Guruji is saying that Yes the Love the praem of Hari is like an arrow and it pierces the mind "man." Of course it does -- no argument.



            5.  Page835 Line 19  Raag Bilaaval: Guru Ram Das

  ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਿਆਸ ਉਠੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰੀ ਸੁਣਿ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਮਨਿ ਤੀਰ ਲਗਈਆ ॥
  anthar piaas outhee prabh kaeree sun gur bachan man theer lageeaa ||
   The thirst for God has welled up deep within me; hearing the Word of the Guru's Teachings, my mind is pierced by His arrow.

Here Guruji is saying "man is pierced by His arrow"  because he has a thirst, spiritual desire. Again, this is about the love of Waheguru overtaking the mind.



            6.  Page861 Line 18  Raag Gond: Guru Ram Das

  ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਲਗੋ ਹਰਿ ਤੀਰ ॥
  maerai man praem lago har theer ||
   My mind is pierced through by the arrow of the Lord's Love.

This one is very specific - Maerai man  My Mind is pierced through by His arrow of love praem

*
Next comes the one we are talking about.  *Slightly different translation and the meaning of this line is as Gyani told us -- Kabir speaking is  completely and totally overwhelmed by the arrow of His Love. This is not about man or ego but about being completely crippled in every way by His Love. Notice the word cẖẖek or ਛੇਕੁ  -- specifically not a reference to ego but to a penetrating glance of an arrow that creates kareje a "hole cẖẖek or ਛੇਕੁ ." When man/munn is intended it is used. Here it is not.
 

And now the one under analysis

ਕਬੀਰ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸੂਰਮੇ  ਬਾਹਿਆ  ਬਾਨੁ  ਜੁ  ਏਕੁ  ॥ 
कबीर सतिगुर सूरमे बाहिआ बानु जु एकु ॥ 
Kabīr saṯgur sūrme bāhi▫ā bān jo ek. 
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow. 

ਲਾਗਤ  ਹੀ  ਭੁਇ  ਗਿਰਿ  ਪਰਿਆ  ਪਰਾ  ਕਰੇਜੇ  ਛੇਕੁ  ॥੧੯੪॥ 
लागत ही भुइ गिरि परिआ परा करेजे छेकु ॥१९४॥ 
Lāgaṯ hī bẖu▫e gir pari▫ā parā kareje cẖẖek. ||194|| 
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194|| |


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

> [URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4"]ਲਾਗਤ





> ਹੀ  ਭੁਇ  ਗਿਰਿ  ਪਰਿਆ  ਪਰਾ  ਕਰੇਜੇ  ਛੇਕੁ  ॥੧੯੪॥
> लागत ही भुइ गिरि परिआ परा करेजे छेकु ॥१९४॥
> Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25205 (Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux)
> Lāgaṯ hī bẖu▫e gir pari▫ā parā kareje cẖẖek. ||194||
> As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194||


[/URL]

Here kabir ji says that arrow pierced his heart and he fell down on the ground. That is literal meaning. The central meaning is that he was flattened and ego was removed.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 22, 2009)

Aadji, 
I too have to say something regarding shooting of arrows. Dasam Patshah ji said,"Khalsa soi jo charey turang !! Khalsa soi jo nit karey jang !!"
Does this mean we the Khalsa should ride a horse and fight daily with opponents.No the message is that we have to ride the horse (Mann), which is always on the run and to control it, simultaniously we the Khalsa has to fight daily with these five evils (Taskars), the enemies of our body and to defeat them daily. We shall not allow them to ride our mind.
Regards and Guru fateh jio !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

M                                        

 *aad0002* 
*
*

     Enrolled: Dec 2006
 Location: Chester PA
 Posts: 7,001
 The following is an old link. So kala afghhana's problem is not only Dasam granth. He also attacks all sikh traditions as well.

www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/8487-gurbax-singh-ji-kala-afghana-debate-5.html


 



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*Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.*  >>   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



Email to Friend 
Jios,

This is complicated stuff!!! Kala Afghana appears to be neither asking questions nor preaching. He is not asking questions as in posing statements ending with a question mark ???? in hopes of getting answers. Does he really want answers? Nor does he appear to be preaching. He does appear to be testomg deeply held beliefs, which may or may not be supportable in Bani. In other words, he may be looking for a debate (or maybe looking for a fight?). Since the list is longer than 5 questions, Mr. Afghana has been hard at work for a long time. And the information out there is so deeply vested in one side of the argument or the other, that objective analysis -- what's that?

The only "list" I could find was in Wikipedia (believe it or not). Everything else was opinion. Here is the list.

*Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')*

*Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib*: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.
*Sri Amritsar Ishnan*: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.
*Washing our Feet*: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs.
*Amrit Vela*: KA states how can you call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time.
*Bhai Veer Singh Ji*: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works.
*Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji*: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).
*Amritsar Sarovar*: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||
*Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial*: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit*: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies.
*Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale*: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh Youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans).
*Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay*: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah*: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees*: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti*: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners)
*Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits*: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken.
*Amrit & Naam*: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad.
*Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh*: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.
*Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh*: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit.
*Charan-Amrit*: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual.
*Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji*: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)
*Panj Piaray & Amritdharis*: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.
*Anand-Karj*: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.
*Bhai Randhir Singh*: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans)
*Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others*: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
*Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar*: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.
Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice?​ http://w


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## spnadmin (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder ji

It is very thoughtful of you to resurrect this old commentary by me regarding Kala Afghana. A couple of thoughts occurred  to me which perhaps you will find interesting. But before I go there allow me to provide the link which was my source for the list of issues raised i the post above. Here is the link
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kala_Afgana*

Ok. The list, found at the link above, appears on a Wikipedia page and the editors of Wikipedia have noted 




This article's *factual accuracy is disputed*. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. _(October 2008)

_ 

This article *has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality*. Discussion of this nomination can be found on the talk page. _(October 2008)_ 



This article's *tone or style may not be appropriate for Wikipedia*. Specific concerns may be found on the talk page. See Wikipedia's guide to writing better articles for suggestions. _(October 2008)_



This article *may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.* Please improve this article if you can. _(August 2007)

_Apparently the Wikipedia editors had problems with the accuracy and the neutrality of the account given by the anonymous author. This suggests that the author may not have his facts right or may have taken an extremely biased view of Kala Afghana.  _ _We should take everything we read about Kala Afghana with a grain of salt. As I said in my earlier post -- we should not be surprised -- because _an _unbiased view of Kala Afghana is hard to find on the Internet. In fact, SPN may hold the record for having at least a few commentators who are willing to be _objective.

_As i read what I wrote months ago I have to say that I continue to hold the view,_ "Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice?"

_On the few YouTube videos I have watched Mr. Afghana seems sincere. Since I have not been able to acquire any of his books in recent months,  because they are not available for sale, I can't answer my own questions to my personal satisfaction. And *given the lack of objectivity among most participants in this debate* -- one can hardly expect accurate, unbiased information information or  logical deductions 100 percent of the time. It just isn't there.

So now tell me. What was the point you were trying to make by posting this?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

The SAME point Perhaps that is made by posting (Jathedar Akal Takhat EX) Prof Darshan Singh Ragi singing dg  banis in the early years of hsi career...

He ahs issued hundreds of CLARIFICATIONS that that is his early LIFE..NOW he having leant about the REAL dsm Granth he is NOT supportign it anymore...BUT NO..his early viudeos continue to be put up byt eh ProDG  guys...

IT DOESNT WORK..PEOPLE CHANGE..people have a RIGHT to CHANGE..People MATURE..LEARN ..Gain new Knowledge.... ONLY A UTTER **** refuses to change/acknowledge his earlier mistakes.../alter accordingly to new discoveries..:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

> now tell me. What was the point you were trying to make by posting this?



I have read some of kala afghana books. i posted some of his observations in this thread and those were deleted. So we have a reference for same.

You have seen his video. But his books are there. What is the connection between two? Does that mean by seeing his video you have started believing in what he wrote in his books?


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The SAME point Perhaps that is made by posting (Jathedar Akal Takhat EX) Prof Darshan Singh Ragi singing dg  banis in the early years of hsi career...
> 
> He ahs issued hundreds of CLARIFICATIONS that that is his early LIFE..NOW he having leant about the REAL dsm Granth he is NOT supportign it anymore...BUT NO..his early viudeos continue to be put up byt eh ProDG  guys...
> 
> IT DOESNT WORK..PEOPLE CHANGE..people have a RIGHT to CHANGE..People MATURE..LEARN ..Gain new Knowledge.... ONLY A UTTER **** refuses to change/acknowledge his earlier mistakes.../alter accordingly to new discoveries..:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:



Giani ji

ragi was doing kirtan of dasam bani till a few years back. He still has not understood about Dasam granth as in one of his audio recordings he was saying why guru gobind singh did not mention Amrit sanchar ceremony in Dasam Granth?


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

*Giani ji*

Some audio clips of Darshan singh's knowledge about Dasam bani.

*
Inder ji: Would you please post the web link for this information so that there is a public citation or reference for the information below?  Thanks, aad0002*

*Darshan Singh Ragi's blasphemy    *




*"IN ADDITION TO SRI DASAM GRANTH THERE ARE 20 to 25 OTHER 'GRANTHS' UNDER THE NAME OF GURU GOBIND SINGH SAHIB"*

  Maybe Darshan Singh should care to provide references and evidences to the outrageous claims that he makes in sangat. As with his other comments, this comment too holds no truth, but is a product of his own imagination.



*"DARSHAN SINGH'S (UN)KNOWLEDGE ABOUT SRI DASAM GRANTH AND ITS HISTORY"*



*Darshan Singh:**"There are more than 15 beerhs of Sri Dasam Granth under the name of Bhai Mani Singh".*

Fact: There is only one 'Bhai Mani Singh beerh' which right now is in the possession of the family of Raja Gulabh Singh. Bhai Mani Singh beerh has the banees of both the granths, Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, in one bind. Click here to see some pictures of Bhai Mani Singh beerhalong with other important beerhs of Sri Dasam Granth



*Darshan Singh**:**  "Why there is no mention of Amrit Sanchar in Sri Dasam Granth?" He challenges Guru's wisdom by asking, "ki Guru bhul gaya?" ("Did Guru forget?")*

Fact: Almost every composition within Sri Dasam Granth has been sealed with the date when that composition was written (completed) and the place where Guru Sahib wrote that composition.
  Some examples:
ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸੈ ਪੈਤਾਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਵਨ ਸੁਦਿ ਥਿਤਿ ਦੀਪ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਨ ਜਮਨਾ ਬਹੈ ਸਮੀਪ ॥2490॥

(This work has been completed) in the year 1745 of the Vikrami era in the Sudi aspect of the moon in the month of Sawan, (July 1688 A.D.) in the town of Paonta at the auspicious hour, on banks of the flowing Yamuna. _(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in ‘Krishnavtar’)_
ਸੰਬਤ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਿਣਜੈ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਿਹਜੈ ॥ ਭਾਦ੍ਰਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸਟਮੀ ਰਵਿ ਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਤੀਰ ਸਤੁਦ੍ਰਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥405॥

This (part of) Granth was completed on Sunday, the 18th day of month of Bhadon, in 1753 Bikrami Sammat (August 24, 1696 A.D.) on the banks of river Satluj. _(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in ‘Charitropakhyan’)_
ਸੰਮਤ ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਪਚਾਵਨ॥ਹਾੜ ਵਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਵਨ ॥ਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥ਭੂਲ ਪਰੀ ਲਹੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥860॥

This (part of) Granth has been completed (and improved) in Vadifirst in the month of Asaarh in the year 1755 Bikrami; if there has remained any error in it, then kindly correct it. _(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in ‘Ramavtaar’)_
  It was a brilliant idea to record the date, time, place and year of the completion of this work. This is also evident from the closing lines of Chritropakhyan, the fourteenth composition. Guru Sahib writes:  
_ "On the banks of river Satluj the granth was completed on Sunday, Bhadro Sudi Eighth 1753 bikrami(1696 A.D).   This closes the dialogue between the King and his ministers and with this the four hundred and four episodes come to a good end".
ਸੰਬਤ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਣਿਜੈ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ॥ਭਾਦ੍ਰਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸਟਮੀ ਰਵਿ ਵਾਰਾ। ਤੀਰ ਸਤੁਦ੍ਰਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ।।405॥ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਖਯਾਨੇ ਤਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੀ ਭੂਪ ਸੰਪਾਦੇ ਚਾਰ ਸੌ ਚਾਰ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਮਾਪਤ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ।।404।।7555।।ਅਫਜੂੰ।।

_
 So the internal evidence shows that major part (except for Zafarnamah that was written in 1704 AD) of 'Sri Dasam Granth' (or 'Patshah Dasven Ji Ka Granth' as it was called at that time) was completed in 1696 AD. Hence it is common sense that Sri Dasam Granth could not contain references to those events and incidents that took place later on such as 'Formation of Khalsa' (1699 AD) and 'Battle of Chamkaur' (1704 AD). However those incidents that took place before 1696 AD, such as 'Battle of Bhangani' (1686 AD), have been meticulously reported by Guru Sahib in his writings.

 Now Darshan Singh either knows the facts and is trying to ignore them, or he does not know the facts. If the former is true then he clearly has some vicious motive behind spreading hatred for Guru Gobind Sahib and his banee. And if the latter is true then he should spend time learning and understanding a subject, instead of spreading wrong information among sangat. Click here to view the oldest beerh of  Sri Dasam Granth from 1698 AD.



*Darshan Singh:** "Sri Dasam Granth came into existence 100 years after Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. It was made by collecting some material from Guru Sahib's library"*

Fact: The first part of Darshan Singh's claim holds no truth. The internal dates from different compositions, the beerh of 1698 AD, and later compilation of the complete banees of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib by Bhai Mani Singh Ji in 1721 AD, proves beyond any doubt that the banees and the Granth was present during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.  

 Darshan Singh first criticises the banees of Sri Dasam Granth, and then without any supporting evidence claims that Sri Dasam Granth was made by collecting different material from the library of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib, hence again attacking the wisdom of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.



*"ATTACKS ARDAAS"*

Towing the line of Arya Samaj, RSS and Dayanand, Darshan Singh shamelessly criticizes the entire Guru Panth and panthic leadership which formulated the Sikh Rahit Maryada. Darshan S shamelessly attacks Vaar Sri Bhaguati ji ki, the first pauree of our Ardaas, by saying that "even then there were these type of people who put this durga devi's prayer in our Rahit Maryada".
*"DISTORTS HISTORY AND MAKES HIS OWN '{censored} & BULL STORY"*

Darshan Singh appears to be a compulsive liar. Bhai Kahn Singh in 'Gurmat Martand' published by SGPC records the fact of history that Bhai Mani Singh ji had collected the complete banees of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and compiled Sri Dasam Granth, and Baba Deep Singh ji had brought it to Damadama Sahib. At Damdama Sahib the Singhs discussed whether Sri Dasam Granth Sahib should be kept in one volume or preserved in different volumes subject-wise. This clearly shows that Sri Dasam Granth Sahib was there with them in one bind. There was no dispute about the authorship of the Granth. The Singhs were only discussing the matter and there was no dispute. Bhai Kahn Singh notes that Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh told the gathering that if they come back after accomplishing their mission of killing Massa Rangarh then this volume prepared by Bhai Mani Singh ji be preserved, otherwise it be kept in separate pothis. 

However, reversing this historic incident to suit his own anti-Sikh agenda, Darshan S concocts his own {censored} and bull story and casts aspersions on Bhai Kahan Singh by saying that the compositions were present in different volumes and that the singhs were fighting amongst themselves on whether they should combine different compositions in one bind. Misquoting the historical event he further states, "Sukha Singh & Mehtab Singh said if we come back after killing Massa Ranghar then these separate pothis be combined in one volume, otherwise let these remain unbound".



*"A COMPUSIVE LIAR"*

Ex-Ragi Darshan S had been doing keertan from every composition of Sri Dasam Granth includingchritro-pakhyan, bachittar natak, chandi di vaar, chaubis avtar etc. And now he is spitting venom against all these banees.

 When asked by his own self-arranged-interviewer about this changed stance, he replies that he was doing keertan of those compositions which conform with the ideology of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and he still continues to do the keertan of those compositions.

 The truth is that Darshan S is on record of criticising every banee from Sri Dasam Granth which he himself was revering and was doing keertan and katha of at one time.

 Why did he suddenly change his belief and turn his guns towards Dasam bani is anyone's guess.



_To be continued...._


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

It seems the audio clips are not transferred. One can view those at the link below

Darshan Singh Ragi's blasphemy


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Gurfateh
Well das was invited by one very close person of Ragi Ji, in Delhi for a deabte with him, but in close room. Das wanted it in open. They are yet to respond.

Outside the room of Gyani T{censored}em Singh, in his office of president Dharam Prachar Committee, DSGPC there was a poster by Ragi Ji, in which he  says that it is OK to read Japu Sahib, Swwayye and Chaupayee Sahib and he is against the Parallel Prakash of any book other then Shri Guru Granth Sahib.

While his followers say Japu Sahib should also be discarded.(A lady wanted das to talk to him, but later put back her mobile in her bag).

Das anyway writes another clarification, Which is there in article number 39

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

The article is by Nanak Singh Ji Nishter.

Here there is something common between code of Hazuri Sikhs and Nihungs Singhs. Which is same with SGPC Rahit Maryada.

No other book to be deemed as Guru other than Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Not to bow to any book other than Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If to open/Prakash any Panthic/Sikh book/Granth it has to be done only in the presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's presence and shadow of our eternal Guru.

As per Baba Darshan Singh Ji Akali of Budhadal Patiala. As per Maryada of Nihungs, Our King Shri Guru Granth Sahib(King of spiritual saintly hood) sits in center. on "his" right hand side is the minster of politics(Shri Dasham Granth Sahib for Meeri) and on "his" left sit the minister of War(Shri Sarbloh Granth Sahib for Sipahi concept).

In Delhi, we have Palki only for Adi Guru Darbar as we call Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Das was told that there are Gurudwaras is Hajur Sahib other than Takhats(Takhat is not Gurudwara, there actual bowing and veneration is not done to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but weapons, this is true for Three Takhats of Punjab only). 

If taksal or such Gurudwaras are doing such thing then it is not as per Gurmat. So keeping both the text at the same level and not giving the status of central attention to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is wrong also in those who do open other texts in presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

No one can make son equal to father.

Anyway as per very senior missionary (Just hint to respected Gyani Sahib that with this missionary, of whom  das is  not only  a student but just like son, there was  debate on Sikh marg about  his  support  to  rebirth)  Ragi  Ji  are  playing  with   politicians,  (which  could  even  make  his Valid point weak as those politician want faith to be separated from politics.)  
Forgive if any thing offending is said.


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> *Giani ji*
> 
> Some audio clips of Darshan singh's knowledge about Dasam bani.
> 
> ...



I apologize for not inserting the web link. It is given below

Darshan Singh Ragi's blasphemy


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## spnadmin (Jun 24, 2009)

The thread is moving in circles, revisiting old information that has been posted on this forum and other forums for many months. The thread is closed. aad0002


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