# Ravidass Followers Declare Separate Panth And Granth



## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Jan 31, 2010)

<TABLE class=contentpaneopen><TBODY><TR><TD class=contentheading width="100%">Ravidass followers declare separate religion, released separate religious granth </TD><TD class=buttonheading width="100%" align=right>

</TD><TD class=buttonheading width="100%" align=right>*

*</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=contentpaneopen><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="70%" colSpan=2 align=left>Punjab Newsline Network </TD></TR><TR><TD class=createdate vAlign=top colSpan=2>Sunday, 31 January 2010 </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


*JALANDHAR:* Taking a leaf out of Sikh religion, the followers of Bhagat Ravidass have declared 'Ravidassia', a separate religion and affirmed Guru Ravidass their sole master. They have also released a separate religious granth 'Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass' which will replace Guru Granth Sahib in all Ravidass temples.
The Ravidass followers made this announcement in Ravidass temple in Kashi in Banaras district of Uttar Pardesh which would serve as highest temporal seat for the community. The community as sought recognition of Ravidassia's a sepearate community. 
The new holy granth which contains the 'Bani' of only Bhagat Ravidass (included in Guru Granmth Sahib) was released by Sant Niranjan Dass head of dera Sach Khand Ballan in Jalandhar district. The Balla dera had came to lime light when last year few Sikh miscreants attacked on Ravidass temple in Viana in Austria and dera preacher Swami Rama Nand of Balla dera was killed. The Sikhs had objected that due respect was not given to Guru Grnath Sahib in the Ravidass temple.
Cerain sections of Ravidass community were opposing to domination of Sikhs over them and were trying to eastablish separate identity for their community. Recently, a famous Punjabi singer Miss Pooja had also released a song on these lines for setting up separate religion for Ravidassias.
The reports reaching here said that the community leaders at Kashi have also released the logo of community on which word 'Hari is written. The slogan to address Ravidassia will be 'Jai Gurudev'.
The declaration of separate religion by Ravidassia is bound to have its impact on Sikh politics particularly in context of Punjab. It is considered a majoir set back for the Shiromani Gurdawara parbahandak Committee (SGPC) supreme Sikh body which was trying to keep Ravidassia community in the Sikh fold. The critics of SGPC blamed it on SGPC for their failure to give due respect to Ravidassia community. 
Meanwhile, Sandeep Singh national general secretary of youth wing of SAD (Panch Pardhani) on Sunday said that agents of Hindu forces in the Ravidass community have taken such decision to disintegrate followers of Guru Ravidass from Sikh religion. He said that there is no place for communalism and casteism in Sikh religion. He warned of consequences of such steps which would be harmful for the dalits. He hoped that the awakened dalits of Punjab would not fall prey to motives of people working against their interests.

*My Personal comment : I dont have un neccessary RSS phobia but believe me or not this is a RSS conspiracy.RSS is behind this and similarly RSS was involved in the large scale violence in Punjab after killing of Ramanand in Vienna.That is why Badal did not take any action against the perpetrators of violence.*

*Not only this I swear I personally saw a photo of Ramanand(now dead),Niranjan Das along with some BJP/RSS leaders in some temple in UP.One of them was former BJP leader and CM when Babri Masjid was demolished Kalyan Singh who is now in Samajwadi party and has repeatedly said that he is proud for demolishing it.*
*May be those BJP/RSS leaders were there for some occasion but they were there in UP with Sachkhand Balaan leaders.*

*Unfortunately I have not been able to find that picture on the internet again.If some one has it then please post it.*

*It is possible that RSS and Ballaan dera people have removed the photo from the net as they have removed the blashphameous article against Darbar Sahib,Amritsar and Muslim Peer Faqeers from RSS website.*

*Before some starts thinking that Im a congress or Amrinder or Sarna supporter let me inform that all political parties in India including BJP,Congress and even Communist have the same Baahmanvaadi RSS soch.It is just a friendly match between the parties to fool people particularly minorities.*


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## Randip Singh (Jan 31, 2010)

Can anyone blame them?

However, they are getting an incomplete picture of Ek Onkar. They are welcome to that.

Also are they any better than the Jatt Sikhs they blame for repressing them?


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Jan 31, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> Can anyone blame them?
> 
> However, they are getting an incomplete picture of Ek Onkar. They are welcome to that.
> 
> Also are they any better than the Jatt Sikhs they blame for repressing them?


 
Problem is they are the ones who are getting reservations whereas Jatt Sikhs are not .Jatt Sikh farmers are still committing suicides in Punjab

This is the "Divide and Rule" policy and vote bank politics of Baahmanvaadi forces.


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## kds1980 (Jan 31, 2010)

This will create division between Ravidasia's .Many have faith in Guru granth sahib.If some orthodox fanatic Ravidasia 's want to get out of sikhism then its very good.For a religion you need history,sacrifices .From where these Ravidasia's will get that?


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## Randip Singh (Jan 31, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> This will create division between Ravidasia's .Many have faith in Guru granth sahib.If some orthodox fanatic Ravidasia 's want to get out of sikhism then its very good.For a religion you need history,sacrifices .From where these Ravidasia's will get that?



what you will find is the ones that like to smoke will become members of the new Ravidasi cult.

I remember many of them used to resent the fact I used to tell them off for smoking.


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## spnadmin (Jan 31, 2010)

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL! Isn't that the way of the world. "So ...we got new religion! And is works just fine!"

Explanation: Often we will have break-away sects here of various Protestant groups. And the permiss:}{}{}:able vice (smoking or whatever other vice it may be) is often a drawing card.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 31, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL! Isn't that the way of the world. "So ...we got new religion! And is works just fine!"
> 
> Explanation: Often we will have break-away sects here of various Protestant groups. And the permiss:}{}{}:able vice (smoking or whatever other vice it may be) is often a drawing card.



What I would like to ask these fellows is before the Guru Granth Sahib ji, where were Bhaghat Ravidas's writings?

Does it not occur to them that these ten Guru's would have suffered tremendous ridicule for even wanting to include Bhaghat Ravidas's writings in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

For saving the Bhaghat's teachings this is how they see fit to reward the ten Guru's?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 31, 2010)

The fact of the matter is that Bhagat Ravidas did not have any place at the table of Hindu religion. He was not even allowed  to enter into the Mandirs. 

Our visionary Gurus found something of a spiritual substance that complimented the Gurmat ideals in his poetry and  gave him the rightful place that he deserved. Hence, his stature as no one but a low caste cobbler in Hinduism got elevated and which also helped tremendously the people of his caste who were disdained by the stiff upper lipped Hindus.

Let's wish them all the best  as they want no part of Sikhi now which brought them to this level. 

 Sikhi has not lost anything by the Ravidassies' divorcing themselves from this pragmatic way of life.

I hope that they gain something  spiritually by choosing their own path.

I wonder if Mr. Tiwari's -RSS- next request after demanding to take the Gurbani of the Muslims out of SGGS would be to take  out the Gurbani of the low caste Hindus because besides being the outcasts, they also relish onions and garlic.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jan 31, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I wonder if Mr. Tiwari's -RSS- next request after demanding to take the Gurbani of the Muslims out of SGGS would be to take  out the Gurbani of the low caste Hindus because besides being the outcasts, they also relish onions and garlic.
> 
> Tejwant Singh



In the past 3 or 4 days, this has sparked a storm of debate on listservs and mail groups. it is burgeoning in every direction -- only a few supporters of SGGS are carrying the burden against it. The language used on the RSS side is beyond vulgar and threatening.


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## AusDesi (Jan 31, 2010)

It was bound to happen sooner or later. Infact, I thought it had already happened last year. 

As much as people blame RSS in this, I personally think this has much more to do with BSP. By creating a separate religion for Chamars and Dalits, Mayawati has a new market in other states. 

I don't blame them either. There is a huge population of dalits that could be interested in this. Ambedkar has some effect by converting hindus to buddhists however it was not that great.

Anyways, good luck to them.


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## jasbirkaleka (Feb 1, 2010)

Iwould say good ridance.Only thing is that they should stop  calling these 'Ravidas temples' Gurdwaras.


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## rajneesh madhok (Feb 1, 2010)

The Times of India on Mobile

Kindly go through the above mentioned news report.
Rajneesh Madhok


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## AusDesi (Feb 1, 2010)

rajneesh madhok said:


> The Times of India on Mobile
> 
> Kindly go through the above mentioned news report.
> Rajneesh Madhok



and do what? I have gone through it. Whats the purpose?


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 1, 2010)

First of all let it be clear that Sikhism and Sikhs are not against Bhagat Ravidaas per see.

It is rather a section of followers of Bhagat Ravidaas who have disowned Guru Granth Sahib ji.

We are already hearing of condemnation of "Ballaan Ravidaasia community" from other followers of Bhagat Ravidaas in Jalandhar.Further we are hearing of a strong presence of police in Jalandhar today.

The Sikh community and Khalsa have suddenly seen attacks on Sikhism from various quarters recently .However,these incidences have been helpful in understanding who actually our friends and foes are.

Ultimately "Raaj Karega Khalsa,Aaki rahay na koye,Khuaar hoay sab milengay *bachay saran jo hoye* "


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 1, 2010)

AusDesi said:


> and do what? I have gone through it. Whats the purpose?


 
Yes,Rajneesh Madhok,clarify your intentions


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## Randip Singh (Feb 1, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> First of all let it be clear that Sikhism and Sikhs are not against Bhagat Ravidaas per see.
> 
> It is rather a section of followers of Bhagat Ravidaas who have disowned Guru Granth Sahib ji.
> 
> ...



Hmm I think we must also ask question why *these *Ravidasi's felt they could not embrace Sikhi? Is it our fault? They blame the Jatts, but does it go deeper?

The Ravidasi Sardars I know are fine upstanding people, and their faith in SRM is unshakable. I wish I could say this about all the Ravidasi community.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 1, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> Hmm I think we must also ask question why *these *Ravidasi's felt they could not embrace Sikhi? Is it our fault? They blame the Jatts, but does it go deeper?
> 
> The Ravidasi Sardars I know are fine upstanding people, and their faith in SRM is unshakable. I wish I could say this about all the Ravidasi community.


 
Main persons who left the Sikh panth were those who did not like rehat maryada of Sikhism.Those who wanted to smoke,drink and abuse and indulge in all sorts of manmatt.SGGS ji imposes some restrictions on what a Sikh should and should not do.

It is the dera people who have disowned the Guru Granth Sahib and not the other way around.

Now the ballaan dera ppl are free to do whatever the bahmans are doing all over India.Best of luck with their new alliance with RSS.Atleast these ballaan dera people have openly aligned themselves with RSS but on the other hand we have certain people in Sikhi swaroop who are aligned with RSS but it is difficult to recognise them.

From now onwards ballan dera ppl please dont call any of your mandirs as Gurdwaras 

It is also a fact that not all Ravidaas community members have left Sikhism.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 2, 2010)

Its ONLY ONE DERA...in Jlanadhar..Dera Ballan !! NOT the entire Ravidassi Community..many are SIKHS and will remain SIKHS of SGGS.


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 2, 2010)

Dera Ballan's Niranjan Das who was injured in Vienna shoot out has returned to Jalandhar "under tight security"after declaring a seperate religion at Kansi,UP.


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## dalbirk (Feb 2, 2010)

Dera Ballan has done a great disservice to the cause of the so-called Ravidassis by announcing their breaking away from Sikhism which could be their only true saviour & pushing them into CASTE-INFESTED GUTTER known as Hinduism ( Brahminism ) because this so called new sect will not surivive for more than ten years , will face the same fate as Kabir Panthis .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2010)

maybe he is "jealous" of the sauda saadh..ashutosh..or the Radha Soami...and wants to become like them...?? i think its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!! Muder in Vienna and Mayhem in Punjab was with this objective...most didnt even KNOW what really happened..in one Village they put Paath da Bhog of Niranjan Dass (who is alive and running the dera now) instead of the actual dead ramanand....:shock:


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 3, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> maybe he is "jealous" of the sauda saadh..ashutosh..or the Radha Soami...and wants to become like them...?? i think its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!! Muder in Vienna and Mayhem in Punjab was with this objective...most didnt even KNOW what really happened..*in one Village they put Paath da Bhog of Niranjan Dass* (who is alive and running the dera now) instead of the actual dead ramanand....:shock:


 
Really ????


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## spnadmin (Feb 3, 2010)

In the end Gyani ji it is always about money with babas and sants in any religion. Money, sometimes sex,  and control and ego, which is about money.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2010)

AND who gave the right to STEAL Bhagat Ravidass Jis GURBANI from SGGS to anyone..niranjan dass or whatever ?? SIKHS should take NOTE. The GURBANI inside the SGGS was placed there by SIKH GURUS and it remains there INTACT.

IF ND is that good..He should write his own "bani/granth"/and place THAT in his temples.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2010)

YES..its MONEY and SEX...Read in todays Rozana Spokesman how the NANAKSARI BABAS fight over a NURSING and DENTAL COLLEGE for GIRLS in Jagraon. One Baba went there with 60 Goondas, attacked the Gurls, staff etc in an attempt to take over the College by FORCE. The Festy GIRLS fought Back..and caught the BABA who was running away into his car...and did a CHHITTAR PARADE (SANDLE PARADE PUNJABI GIDDHA STYLE) of His "UNHOLINESS"....for a good 20 minutes just befoee the villagers and police arrived.

Incidentally this College is...you guessed it..all BASED on $$$$$$$$ DONATED by SIKHS in UK/Canada/etc where thsi BABAS go for diwans and prasie GURU SAHIBS..but come back and buy property in their OWN NAMES !! SEARCH the archives of SikhNewsDiscussion  yahoo group for how this college was made !!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2010)

kee_jaana_mein_kaun said:


> Really ????



YES JI...
Didnt you wonder how the RIOTS began in Punjab even before the Vienna news hit the Internet ?? PUBLIC property and rails, trains, buses, buisnesses were targetted so fast....it was all PRE PLANNED and arranged. :happysingh:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2010)

AND..the Inevitable TRUTH begins tricking out...THANKS to the INFORMATION YUG !!

Go to the Link and see the Photos and leaders of this...














*Dera Sachkhand Ballan's directive to sever ties with Sikhs, the Sri Guru Ravidas Sadhu Sampardaye Society -- a conglomerate of more than 150 Dalit deras of Punjab -- on Tuesday rejected outright the newly founded "Ravidassia Dharam".
*
 While condemning Dera Sachkhand's attempt to create a new faith out of the Ravidassia sect, the society also announced it would continue with the practice of following the Sikh holy book, Guru Granth Sahib.
 The society, at its executive committee meeting held at Dera Babe Jore, situated near Dera Sachkhand Ballan here, unanimously termed the "separate religion" announcement as an attempt at dividing the communities.
 Speaking in the presence of more than 30 dera heads, society president Baba Nirmal Dass Jore Wale said: "The decision taken by the Dera Ballan Trust cannot be imposed on the entire Ravidassia community. The newly created scripture `Amritbani Satguru Ravidass Maharaj-ji' will not be treated as a `granth'. Besides, no one consulted all stakeholders in the matter before taking the decision."
 "We condemn the killing of Dera Ballan's Sant Ramanand in Vienna last year, but the Sikh community and Guru Granth Sahib cannot be blamed for the cowardly act of a few people. We must not oppose the holy book," the dera heads said.
 "Guru Granth Sahib will not be removed from any gurdwara, while it will be re-installed at Seer Goverdhanpur, the birthplace of Guru Ravidas at Varanasi. The community should continue to follow the centuries-old religious practice," Baba Nirmal Dass said.
 The meeting noted that several members of the Dalit community had sacrificed their lives to defend the philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib. "Guru Ravidass' bani reached the masses on being incorporated in Guru Granth Sahib," the meeting agreed.
 The participants said the sign of "Har" was created by the society in 1974, and the greeting of "Jai Gurudev" was being used by Dalits since more than 80 years. "We are not against any dera or religious figure, but only against the vested interests of certain people who are misusing the name of a dera," they said.
 They also criticised the attempts of some elements to browbeat those who had challenged the Dera Sachkhand directive, as with Samaj Bachao Morcha convener Gian Chand.
 Meanwhile, two Ravidassia gurdwaras have formally installed the newly created holy book -- "Amritbani Satguru Ravidass Maharaj-ji" -- alongside Guru Granth Sahib.
 Jagdish Jassal, a Dalit villager, said Chaheru-based Dera Phul Dass chief Kishan Nath had installed the new scripture at the Ravidassia gurdwara in Nangal Krar Khan village on Wednesday morning. The text bearing Guru Ravidas `bani' was placed in a separate canopy next to the existing Guru Granth Sahib. A police team was also rushed to the village as a preventive measure.
 Similarly, the new scripture was also placed at the Ravidassia gurdwara in Dhadde village, though in a room separate from the one in which Guru Granth Sahib is installed.http://epaper.<wbr>hindustantimes.com/<wbr>ArticleText.aspx?article=04_<wbr>02_2010_002_009&kword=&mode=1


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## kee_jaana_mein_kaun (Feb 4, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> YES JI...
> Didnt you wonder how the RIOTS began in Punjab even before the Vienna news hit the Internet ?? PUBLIC property and rails, trains, buses, buisnesses were targetted so fast....it was all PRE PLANNED and arranged. :happysingh:


 
I heard in those riots RSS joined with Ravidaasias in Jalandhar.Anti Sikh slogans were also heard.Crores worth of property,3000 crores ?was destroyed in 2 days.Badal gave free hand to the goons for 2 days.

****** Badals have done the same when Biharis went on rampage in Ludhiana on 4 December,2009.He gave free hand to them also.

Perhaps Badals think by doing this they have consolidated their vote bank in the 2 large cities of Punjab ,Jalandhar and Ludhiana ,both of which are Hindu dominated.

Time will tell what they have gained or lost.


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## bscheema (Feb 4, 2010)

v cnt balme othr v need to refine our self .... crowd jst follow bhead challl


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## spnadmin (Feb 4, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> YES JI...
> Didnt you wonder how the RIOTS began in Punjab even before the Vienna news hit the Internet ?? PUBLIC property and rails, trains, buses, buisnesses were targetted so fast....it was all PRE PLANNED and arranged. :happysingh:



Amazing! More needs to be said about this.


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## seeker3k (Feb 5, 2010)

Ravidas dharm:  
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
It was inevitable that they decided to split from Sikhism. As a jatt Sikh I feel bad about the split. It is the attitude of Sikhs that forced them to split. It is same thing when woman file for divorce from her husband. Man and his family will never admit the fault of man. It is always the woman’s fault.
We Sikhs claim that we gave Ravidas the honor by including his writing. Ravidas was there before the Sikhism.  We should be thankfull to Ravidas that his writing inspire our Gurus. The very thing we claim that we gave them the honor is insulting them. We can not understand this until we  have been discriminated. I remember from the 40’s how Jatts abused the chamars in villages.
As I wrote before that SGGS is cut and paste book. What will happen to SGGS if all the bhagats will remove or file case in court that their gurus writing are used by the Sikhs with out permission?  Every one who’s writing are in the SGGS should get the same status as the so called gurus.
Why are we celebrate the 4 guru’s BD-Gadi day-shahedi day. Why nothing about the bhagats? The answer I get there is no way we can do for all bhagts. When we have SGGS then there is no need to celebrate any guru or bhagat. Either we accept SGGS the living guru or should not. When one guru is living then there is no need to celebrate any one who has been dead.
Now the jathedars are calling meeting and pleading the Ravidasis to meeting to solve the problem.
<o> </o>
Some one said religion is bult on sacrifices. This thinking of a narrow minded person. It clearly shows the persons violence side. How come the Radha Suami is growing leaps and bouds. They have not sacrifices any one yet. Next to brake away are the Radha Suami.
Some are blaming the RRS to split the Sikhism it is always some one else not ourselves. If do not change our ways there will be nothing left of Sikhism as we know. 
Repercussion  of this is very big. There will be new political party in <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> rival to congress and in <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab. There will be no Alkali party as we know of.. Ravis’s folloers are more then Jatt Sikhs. There maybe a wave to unite all the dalits. Then they will be in power in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> and other provinces. I see nothing wrong with that they are as much capable as the Jatts and Brahmans. The political landscape of <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> and <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab is going to be very different.
I am in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> now, what I hear from Jatts are mind blowing. Most of my friends are jatts. They also know that I am jatt so they can talk openly. There is lot of hatred in these jatts against the delits.  In villages mostly. No one is talking in cities because they don’t know  who is who.
We talk about discrimination in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Australia</st1:country-region>, Newzeland,  In Canada USA. This nothing when I see what is going on in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region>. What I see in India, India is doomed. 
Now the cat is out of the bag.
seeker3k


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## kds1980 (Feb 6, 2010)

> Some one said religion is bult on sacrifices. This thinking of a narrow minded person



Do you have the authority to judge who is broad minded and who is narrow minded.For people like copying west is broadmindedness and following any religion or traditional thing is narrow.



> How come the Radha Suami is growing leaps and bouds. They have not sacrifices any one yet. Next to brake away are the Radha Suami.
> Some are blaming the RRS to split the Sikhism it is always some one else not ourselves. If do not change our ways there will be nothing left of Sikhism as we know.



Radhaswami is not a religion.It is basically following their spiritual Guru.If you belive that this type of following some Guru is following a new religion then almost entire India is doing this.Also let me remind you There were many muslim followers of Sikh Guru but they did not embrace sikh religion as a result their descendents are hardcore muslim with no connection with sikhi.Following some Guru,pir,fakir is an age old tradition of India


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## spnadmin (Feb 6, 2010)

seeker3k ji
*
The forum can always depend on you to raise an opposing point of view or take a look at some failings in the way the a false Sikhi is practiced. However you have over-stepped the boundaries of responsible commentary in your comments about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. There is a forum rule -- this holy granth may not be undermined. And you have presented no evidence to support your claims. You are warned. * 




> Ravidas dharm:
> It was inevitable that they decided to split from Sikhism. As a jatt Sikh I feel bad about the split. It is the attitude of Sikhs that forced them to split. It is same thing when woman file for divorce from her husband. Man and his family will never admit the fault of man. It is always the woman’s fault.




 It takes two to marry and two to divorce. Forgive me, but there are many instances where women have taken real advantage of men as in dowry disputes, or marriages so the woman can get immigration papers, and then the contract is broken. 




> We Sikhs claim that we gave Ravidas the honor by including his writing.




We Sikhs do not claim that we gave Ravidas the honor of including his writing. *Guru Arjan Dev decided to include some of his banee. *Please stick to the facts. 



> Ravidas was there before the Sikhism.  We should be thankfull to Ravidas that his writing inspire our Gurus.


 

Ravidas did not "inspire" our Gurus. *Our Gurus were inspired by the Sat Nam,* same as Ravidas. 




> The very thing we claim that we gave them the honor is insulting them. We can not understand this until we  have been discriminated. I remember from the 40’s how Jatts abused the chamars in villages.



 There are many Sikhs who remain trapped in the culture of caste. There are many Sikhs who are not trapped there. Please do  not generalize with the word "we."



> As I wrote before that SGGS is cut and paste book.


  
*This comment is a violation of forum rules.* *But beyond that this one comment alone belies your considerable lack of knowledge about how the Sri Guru Granth Sahib was compiled. Please read "The Compilation of the Adi Granth" by Professor Sahib Singh to address gaps in your understanding. *




> What will happen to SGGS if all the bhagats will remove or file case in court that their gurus writing are used by the Sikhs with out permission?  Every one who’s writing are in the SGGS should get the same status as the so called gurus.




 This statement is laughable. The bhagats can sue no one and have no one to sue. All parties have left their physical bodies. Where would this trial take place? On the astral plane? I regret my own sarcasm, but your argument is beyond hypothetical. 



> Either we accept SGGS the living guru or should not.


 
 
You have just claimed the SGGS is a cut and paste job. Now you say it is "the living guru." Think about the implications of this remark. 




> Some one said religion is bult on sacrifices. This thinking of a narrow minded person. It clearly shows the persons violence side. How come the Radha Suami is growing leaps and bouds. They have not sacrifices any one yet. Next to brake away are the Radha Suami.




 *The Radhasoami Beas, or Sant Mat, have never been part of the panth. This panth was formed in 1861.  Shri Shiv Dayal Singh was its founder, and he is considered the Supreme Being by members of the sect. They have almost nothing in common with Sikhism. They have raised one living guru after another to serve in his stead while waiting for him to return. In the meantime they have flourished, it is true, from generous donations from their panth. *




> Some are blaming the RRS to split the Sikhism it is always some one else not ourselves. If do not change our ways there will be nothing left of Sikhism as we know.




 RSS has not done it alone. They have managed to make in roads with the help of the SAD. I know that you read the same news articles that I read. 



> There maybe a wave to unite all the dalits.


 
 
Already there have been waves to unite all the dalits. The Ambekdar Movement is only one. Have they united yet?





> Then they will be in power in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> and other provinces. I see nothing wrong with that they are as much capable as the Jatts and Brahmans. The political landscape of <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> and <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab is going to be very different.
> 
> I am in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region> now, what I hear from Jatts are mind blowing. Most of my friends are jatts. They also know that I am jatt so they can talk openly. There is lot of hatred in these jatts against the delits.  In villages mostly. No one is talking in cities because they don’t know  who is who.



 
Hatred does not belong to Jatts alone. It is a universal poison. 




> Now the cat is out of the bag.




*No it isn't!* Most of what you have said is factually incorrect.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 6, 2010)

ON HINDSIGHT..i have been proven absolutley correct that this entire stunt and drameybazee was by the ONE SINGLE DERA --Dera Ballan in Jalandhar and its ASSISTANT Mahnat who wnated an overnight rise to High heaven ans the Saviour and Guru of the Ravidasshiah nation. So the "Chief of the Dera was assasinated in a foreign land...the "assistant" escaped miracolously !! ( HA.....miracle..hallmark of a "true GURU" yes ??) and instant Mayhem and riotous behaviour broke out in Jalndhar even before the news form Foreign lands hit the Internet..)obvioulsy these miscreants had inisder information ??and were prepared well in advance ??) PUBLIC and SIKH Properties were secifically Targetted and DESTROYED - the Police and Authorities looked on passively for quite  a long while !!! Nearly 600 KROR valued private SIKH propoerty was destroyed and about 2000 Kror PUBLIC properties destroyed.
2. The DERA held a funeral for the dead Chief...( whose body was flown home ina  aspecial Private JET hired by the Badal Govt in super haste ) and EXPLICITLY removed the SGGS from the so called AKHAND PAATH/memorial services and the Assistant (NOW NEWLY MINTED CHIEF) declared only Bhagat ravidass Banis would be read ( only 40 or so shabads taken out form SGGS) The BADALS held their won AKHAND PAATH..at the AKAL TAKHAT - no less !!) No matter that SUCH an act is sacrilege especially one held in honour of a person who denigrated SGGS by having rumallahs offered for the Holy book touch his feet first ) and when the Elder Badal went there to pay hsi respects..he had KNEE PAIN and so sat on a CHAIR in the SGGS presence ..BUT when this Same Badal went to the DERA BALLAN..his knee pain disappeared and he could sit COMFORTABLY ON THE GROUND at the FEET of the New Chief !! Pictorail evidence of Both events exists.
Next news began to filter out in screaming headlines..SGGS REMOVED from ALL ravidassiah Temples..Blah Blah Blah..which was all one BIG LIE...sensationalised propoganda....as it turned OUT..only the DERA ballan was one of such places and maybe one or two others where his types ruled...

Fast Forward to February 2010...The DERA BALLAN CHIEF then goes to Kashi..and declares this NEW CHHOCHHA -- stunt...dramey bazee...New Granth..New Nishan..New Greeting..blah blah blah..and Headlies Scream once more..Ravidassiahs SPLIT form Sikhs...once again a BIG LIE....over 150 Organsiations and SANTS and DERAS of Ravidassih Sangat come out in FULL SUPPORT of the SGGS and REMAINING SIKHS as always. News repot stated thta nearly 100,000 supporters of Ravidass Ji have been trying to remove the FAKE BALLAN TYPES from the Ravidass Temple in KASHI and reinstall SGGS.

Latest..the Younger Badal is reportedly in secret confrence to...???? discuss thsi latest development with the BJP partner-chief....How the PLAN to DIVIDE and RULE Failed..perhaps...discuss some new stunt..drama...maybe tomorrows headlines will begin screaming again...BUT the ETERNAL TRUTH is..TRUE FOLLOWERS of Ravidass Ji are SIKHS..first and Last and will remain SIKHS FOREVER.

To me it seems that hundreds of DWARFS with various small axes...have been busy hacking at the HUGE TREE SGGS/GURMATT that Guru nanak ji planted 500 years ago and in whose roots poured the BLOOD of sikh martyrs for 200 years...but the WOOD of this TREE is solid iron...and their axes become blunt ever so often..but the enmies of sikhism continue to labour...with subjects like these...as well as raagmalla..dsm granth..etc etc etc....Some of these DWARFS are now attacking form INSIDE...in sikh form..BUT i beleive the TREE of SIKHI will stand tall as always....and all these dwarfs will be defeated..ALL SIKHS MUST KNOW their GURU...the GYAAN GURU and work to defeat these Dwarfs of DARKNESS..AGYAAN..RITUALS...BLIND FAITH/WORSHIP/SHARDHA etc...Satgur Nanak Pargitiyah..Mitteee DHUND Jagg Channan HOYA..!!! still STANDS true.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 6, 2010)

BSP had an electoral alliance with badal once...and they did win one or two seats...they then thought thta the Akalis were riding the Elephant (Dalit votes were making the Akalis win)..BUT in the following leection the Elephnat decided to go alone..and LOST ALL SEATS. Reality hit the BSP...the two seats they won earlier were due to the AKALI VOTES and not the other way around...Even though Dalits are a huge population chunk..in terms of voters..they always vote SAD/BJP/Congress and NOT BSP !!( Elephant is BSP nishaan ) GROUND REALITIES dont always translate according to STATISTICS !!! IF it were so...DALITS would occupy the Indian Presidency/PM/Cabinet/Army/Navy/ etc...and the POOR would be occupying the UNO as Heads of State !! Becasue 90% of the world voters are POOR !!


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## kds1980 (Feb 6, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> BSP had an electoral alliance with badal once...and they did win one or two seats...they then thought thta the Akalis were riding the Elephant (Dalit votes were making the Akalis win)..BUT in the following leection the Elephnat decided to go alone..and LOST ALL SEATS. Reality hit the BSP...the two seats they won earlier were due to the AKALI VOTES and not the other way around...Even though Dalits are a huge population chunk..in terms of voters..they always vote SAD/BJP/Congress and NOT BSP !!( Elephant is BSP nishaan ) GROUND REALITIES dont always translate according to STATISTICS !!! IF it were so...DALITS would occupy the Indian Presidency/PM/Cabinet/Army/Navy/ etc...and the POOR would be occupying the UNO as Heads of State !! Becasue 90% of the world voters are POOR !!



The problem with BSP is mayawati.She is also as corrupt as Badal.Despite several offers she always contest alone in all India.There is allegation that she sells tickets.BSP is the only party that contest more than 500 seats even more than BJP and they just win only 21 in 2009 lok sabha elections


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## ja58ir (Feb 6, 2010)

This is all a part of the leaders who have no Faith in themselves and what the people to fallow them then the true Faith that they Parents did. Did no one before them think that Bhagat Ravi Dass was a guru or are they self claiming that they may one day be called the founder of the  'Ravidassia', and forget Bhagat Ravi Dass who was a true Bhagat. a follower of the true God.
You can run but can not hide from yourself then why do the leaders not live in peace with one another? 
Guru Nanak said "be true to the Religion you believe in"


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## AusDesi (Feb 6, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> The problem with BSP is mayawati.She is also as corrupt as Badal.Despite several offers she always contest alone in all India.There is allegation that she sells tickets.BSP is the only party that contest more than 500 seats even more than BJP and they just win only 21 in 2009 lok sabha elections



Thank god for the muslims for that one. If they hadn't block voted for Congress, Mayawati would have had close to 50 seats. That would have been a disaster especially if the Left pulled more seats. There would have been a 3rd front govt.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 7, 2010)

That is why I always advoicate that SIKHS MUST NEVER commit to any one party/block. Bdal has doen a very big disservice ot Sikhs by putting them in BJP's Back pocket for ever. THUS the BJP "knows" the Sikh Votes are safe..why BOTHER to give them naything..they will VOTE BJP never the less..and the Congress also wont give naything to them because they know the Sikhs wont vote them anyway....so the SIKHS actually GET NOTHING...HERO TO ZERO !! But IF the SIKHS were NEUTRAL...BOTH BJP and Congress would eb bending over backwards to WOO THEM.
The SIKHS are BJP's WIFE..so BJP dont need to woo them..and the Congress will NOT disturb anothers wife...Better if the Sikhs REMAIN a VIRGIN !!


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## Zahim Nasir (Feb 18, 2010)

seeker3k said:


> Ravidas dharm:
> fficeffice" />
> 
> As I wrote before that SGGS is cut and paste book. What will happen to SGGS if all the bhagats will remove or file case in court
> seeker3k



I think this guy really hit the nail on the head. :shock:


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## Admin (Feb 18, 2010)

*Dear Nasir, thank you for showing your true colors. 

I think its time for you to make a dignified exit from this forum... there are many forums out there taking your s.hit like topix.com or for that matter you can try another forum:-> The Voice of Sikh Youth, you will find many hate mongers matching your taste there. :welcome:

You are forewarned...

Gurfateh!*


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 18, 2010)

Zahim Nasir said:


> I think this guy really hit the nail on the head. :shock:



Zahim Nasir,

Your head is bleeding and the nail is stuck in there. Seek someone's help to hammer it out.

Your post shows how ignorant you are about Sikhi and SGGS and 
  you flaunt your ignorance like a Muslim zealot rather than learning something which I am sure will make you a better Muslim and take your cowardice away.


Tejwant Singh


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## Zahim Nasir (Feb 19, 2010)

LOL dude, I'm simply re-iterating what another Sikh who had the guts of introspection said on this forum, I say kudos to him  :advocate:


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## roab1 (Feb 19, 2010)

Introspection is about ones own self, you cannot introspect for other people or the whole community unless you are in a position of a Pope or the Khalifas. If these words had been from the mouth of the supreme leader then you might have had a point. This person you are giving kudos to is probably a non-believer in Sikh Gurus. 

If you can confirm that you are a Muslim who has love for the Prophet then i can help you with a lot of introspection about Islam in the words of the Muslims. its better to learn about ones own faith than that of others.:welcome:


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## Zahim Nasir (Feb 20, 2010)

roab1,  I'm not a member of  حزب الله
that's Hizballah to you. If you are serious about learning about Islam, its available in Urdu, Hindi, English :welcome:

Just sticking to the main story, why were you hostile to this sikh guys comments and my endorsement. Wouldn't it be better to refute it intelligently instead of moaning in agony?

*Please debate issues, not personalities, or do not bother to post at all. And when you do post please link your comments to something specific so we can figure out what topic-relevant point you are trying to make. Thank you. Narayanjot Kaur*


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## roab1 (Feb 20, 2010)

Self-edit.


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## bhimsen (Feb 26, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> ON HINDSIGHT..i have been proven absolutley correct that this entire stunt and drameybazee was by the ONE SINGLE DERA --Dera Ballan in Jalandhar and its ASSISTANT Mahnat who wnated an overnight rise to High heaven ans the Saviour and Guru of the Ravidasshiah nation. So the "Chief of the Dera was assasinated in a foreign land...the "assistant" escaped miracolously !! ( HA.....miracle..hallmark of a "true GURU" yes ??) and instant Mayhem and riotous behaviour broke out in Jalndhar even before the news form Foreign lands hit the Internet..)obvioulsy these miscreants had inisder information ??and were prepared well in advance ??) PUBLIC and SIKH Properties were secifically Targetted and DESTROYED - the Police and Authorities looked on passively for quite  a long while !!! Nearly 600 KROR valued private SIKH propoerty was destroyed and about 2000 Kror PUBLIC properties destroyed.
> 2. The DERA held a funeral for the dead Chief...( whose body was flown home ina  aspecial Private JET hired by the Badal Govt in super haste ) and EXPLICITLY removed the SGGS from the so called AKHAND PAATH/memorial services and the Assistant (NOW NEWLY MINTED CHIEF) declared only Bhagat ravidass Banis would be read ( only 40 or so shabads taken out form SGGS) The BADALS held their won AKHAND PAATH..at the AKAL TAKHAT - no less !!) No matter that SUCH an act is sacrilege especially one held in honour of a person who denigrated SGGS by having rumallahs offered for the Holy book touch his feet first ) and when the Elder Badal went there to pay hsi respects..he had KNEE PAIN and so sat on a CHAIR in the SGGS presence ..BUT when this Same Badal went to the DERA BALLAN..his knee pain disappeared and he could sit COMFORTABLY ON THE GROUND at the FEET of the New Chief !! Pictorail evidence of Both events exists.
> Next news began to filter out in screaming headlines..SGGS REMOVED from ALL ravidassiah Temples..Blah Blah Blah..which was all one BIG LIE...sensationalised propoganda....as it turned OUT..only the DERA ballan was one of such places and maybe one or two others where his types ruled...
> 
> ...



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{font-family:Calibri;     panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;     mso-font-ch{censored}t:0;     mso-generic-font-family:swiss;     mso-font-pitch:variable;     mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} @font-face     {font-family:Verdana;     panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;     mso-font-ch{censored}t:0;     mso-generic-font-family:swiss;     mso-font-pitch:variable;     mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal     {mso-style-unhide:no;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     margin:0cm;     margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:12.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";     mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;} .MsoChpDefault     {mso-style-type:export-only;     mso-default-props:yes;     font-size:10.0pt;     mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;     mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1     {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;     margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;     mso-header-margin:36.0pt;     mso-footer-margin:36.0pt;     mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1     {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0cm;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->  These days, it seems like every Tom, **** and Harry is busy in getting his names in the newspapers and singing the song of “community division” happening due to our granth. How can bani of our Guru be cause of division? Strange, when other high caste religious groups were formed, nobody talked about these divisions. Rather they classify it as natural phenomenon and support it and shrug their shoulders saying “everybody has right to practice their religion as they see fit !”

  Whole Haryana state has decided to accept Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass Ji. UP and Maharashtra and many other states already have done that. It seems like similar to states like UP, where dalits were first to gain power, their acceptance is immediate too. It talks about their awareness even though they are relatively poor. 

  While in Punjab, where dalits, even though rich, are on the periphery and only get leftovers from other parties as far as political power is concerned, their acceptance of Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass Ji is slow, and their thinking is guided by their political ambitions, affiliations and dera grudges, rather than community brotherhood. If community brotherhood had been there, we would have had political power too. We are in far larger percentage in Punjab than UP. We, chamars in Punjab are spoiled, as Sahib Shri Kanshi Ram used to say. One of the politicians from Jalandhar had come to Canada to collect money for Guru Ravidass Dham, and all he talked about was that we should have a new granth. He continuously talked about Ravidassia’s own granth and desperately wanted one to put in Guru Ravidass Dham in Butan Mandi. He collected funds for a Guru Ravidass Dham in Buta Mandi. Does anybody know what is his affiliation now...? I have heard that he is now against Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass Ji. Can someone confirm..?

  Somebody should ask these people, who talk about community division based on Bani of Guru Ravidass Ji, the following questions: 
   Should human beings maintain relationships with each other, if and only if their religious doctrine is same?

   Should mutual relationships be based on humanity or religions?
   Did Sikhs break relationship with Hindus or Muslims when khalsa was formed..?

   Do Sikhs talk to people of other religious faiths? (if not then why are they talking of relationships broken here)

   Same people who talk about community division also talk about disrespect of GGS, if Guru Ravidass Amrit Bani is followed. Who the hell is disrespecting GGS here? Considering Guru Ravidass Ji’s bani of prime importance for Ravidassias doesn’t mean we are disrespecting GGS? (But then again, if these guys don’t talk about disrespect to GGS, how else would they inflame Sikhs against Guru Ravidass Amri Bani followers?. This tool of “beadbi” and “disrespect to GGS” has been used by our own stool pigeons against our own people for many decades).

   Why such ho hum in case of Ravidassias Dharam? In my view it is happening because high caste Sikhs can’t seem to digest this fact that we have decided to go on our own. How can the people who used to toil in the fields of others till few years ago and were dependent on their masters for sustenance, assert their own identity.

   Incidentally, when we used to keep Guru Granth Sahib in our temples, many times sikhs used to threaten us by saying “You don’t know how to respect Guru Granth Sahib and if we don’t straighten up, they will take it away”. Now when we have removed it, some are saying threateningly “how dare we removed it or we can’t remove it or it causes disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib”. Any body with a half brain would know what such a talk or mentality is indicative of? 

   Yes, you guessed it right ! It is typical example of being bully and of the opinion “my way or highway”. It is forcing of their doctrine and practices on us.

   In conclusion, Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass Ji will bring peace between Sikh and Ravidassia community which was damaged by Sikh terrorists murdering Sant Rama Nand. It will prevent their interference in our temples and Amrit Bani will allow us to build our community and concentrate on ourselves and come across as equals to others (not as marginalized members of some other religion like Hinduism or sikhism).

   My comments are not against any individual, institution or religion but rather a commentary on the current state of affairs, as I see it.


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## bhimsen (Feb 26, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AND..the Inevitable TRUTH begins tricking out...THANKS to the INFORMATION YUG !!
> 
> Go to the Link and see the Photos and leaders of this...
> 
> ...




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font-size:10.0pt;     mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;     mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1     {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;     margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;     mso-header-margin:36.0pt;     mso-footer-margin:36.0pt;     mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1     {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0cm;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->Ravidassia religion is the outcome of our bitter experience with sikh religion. It has nothing to do with hindu religion at this point. Those who announced themselve Ravidassia were having faith in Guru Granth, they were separated from hindu long long ago. So I will discuss only bad points of sikh attitude in this mail. Everyone knows that we were not being treated equally in sikh Gurdwaras. Sikhs have lots of problems when we call Guru to Ravidass ji Maharaj. They don't like Guru Ravidass ji's picture in Guru Ravidas Gurughar. They tell us that you guys are coming to Gurughar with covered head where your Guru's picture is with uncovered head. So we are not independent even in our own Gurughars. I heard a few months ago that UK sikhs were complaining of Guru Ravidass ji's picture in Guru Ravidass Gurughar, they posponed this objection after the involvement of SGPC chief Makkar. I learned that UK Ravidassia's had to beg to keep their Guru's picture in their own Gurudwara. We are facing countless problems from sikhs. Rehat Maryada is the term used as an excuse to step on us, actually they are not able to digest our progress. So if you keep all these things in mind you will not find anything wrong in announcing a new religion. Some people say that instead of running away we should fight for justice, I want to say that you fight and waste your time, money and young blood for what? If someone cannot survive without Guru Granth, then  www.srigranth.org is the site, go and read online, no one will come to check you whether you covered your head or put off the shoes or not. 
Don't give second vienna to your next generation. Be wise and instead of borrowing, have your own.
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## bhimsen (Feb 26, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> The fact of the matter is that Bhagat Ravidas did not have any place at the table of Hindu religion. He was not even allowed  to enter into the Mandirs.
> 
> Our visionary Gurus found something of a spiritual substance that complimented the Gurmat ideals in his poetry and  gave him the rightful place that he deserved. Hence, his stature as no one but a low caste cobbler in Hinduism got elevated and which also helped tremendously the people of his caste who were disdained by the stiff upper lipped Hindus.
> 
> ...




<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">Dear readers,

First of all, I must concede: I am not a scholar; and perhaps, not a ‘Sikh’ too. I do revere Guru Granth Sahib and its creators: right from Guru Nanak to Guru Ravidas and Guru Kabir.

You have objections on my calling Guru Ravidas as ‘Guru’. You say Sikh tenets so lay down. Can you please quote where it is laid down that except ten Gurus, none else be called ‘Guru’ though their Bani is respected as Guru Granth Sahib. I presume you have no evidence of such Sikh tenets.

On my part, I have following arguments/evidence for calling him Guru:
  <!--[if !supportLists]-->
1.       <!--[endif]-->The GGS is creation of some Sikh Gurus and other Saints. They created Bani of the GGS. That means they created the GGS. A creator is always greater than his creation. Hence these saints are GREATER than the GGS which contains their creations. If the GGS could be called Guru, its creators too are ‘Guru’ and are supposed to be bestowed with greater reverence than the GGS itself.
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2.      <!--[endif]-->Undoubtedly and unquestionably, the GGS is greater than all Sikhs. For a moment, we agree it refers to all non-Sikh Saints as Bhagat. BUT where does it say that these Saints be called Bhagat by ordinary Sikhs. How can you equate yourself with the GGS in calling them Bhagat? If the GGS call them Bhagat, are you too the GGS or equal to the GGS that you are calling them Bhagat! If my father called my Chacha as “Ramu”, does it mean, I too can call him ‘Ramu’? 
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3.      <!--[endif]-->If you interpret that their Bani is classified under “Bhagat Bani”, hence you call them Bhagat. Then why on the same criterion, those be not called “Mahila” who named themselves as such in the the GGS?
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4.      <!--[endif]-->Guru Nanak brought Guru Ravidas ji’s bani and he used to sing the same while preaching his Dharma. His successor Gurus watched Guru Nanak singing Bani of Guru Ravidas. Hence, they deemed it fit to adorn the GGS with his Bani. If GND is revered as Guru then why not that Guru be revered as Guru whose Bani this Guru sang in spreading his Dharam? Our founder Guru carried his Bani on his head and we are calling the creator of such bani to be Bhagat i.e. follower!! How ridiculous!! GND CAN NOT be called Guru unless and until we revere Guru Ravidas as Guru.
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5.      <!--[endif]-->Leave aside all! When Guru Gobind Singh commanded that ‘henceforth only the GGS would be treated as Guru’. “Sab Sikhon ko hukam hai Guru Manyo Granth” what did he mean? Did he mean “the bundle of printed pages that are fastened inside a cover so that you can turn them and read them i.e. book” be revered as Guru? NO, not at all. He meant the Bani and their creators be treated as guide (Guru) to live a solemn life. Did he differentiate between Bani of Sikh Gurus and that those of non- Sikh Gurus while adorning the GGS as Guru! 

If the Commander has not said so, who the anybody else are to say so!
   So Brother DONOT utter Brahmanic words. Lets be guided by our Gurus and their deeds. Guru Ravidas is as much Sikh Guru as are GND and the GGS.
  Though relevent, I am not discussing here the point that most of the scholars agree that GND was baptized follower of Guru Kabir, a Dharam Bhai of Guru Ravidas. Saint Satpal of Satlok Ashram Barwala, a follower of Guru Kabir preaches this everywhere he goes.

So far as the term Mahila is concerned, there may be some Arabic term as such but HERE IN THE GGS THE TERM MAHILA HAS BEEN USED TO MEAN A WOMAN. Here it is NOT an Arabic term. Bhai Kahhan Singh has specifically stated in Mahankosh (Pp. 3274 & 3284) that Sikh Gurus have called themselves Mahila i.e Stri or wife, woman. So brother, have courage to accept Truth.

In our school times, our Punjabi teacher was Giani Thakar Singh. He would often tell us that the Bhai of gurudwara is wrongly reciting the Bani; he is pronouncing Mahila as mahhla. Like you, we too would say; how can a man be ‘woman’ of God! But it is!

In our college days, our Punjabi teacher Dr. Harchand Singh Chand was once teaching us Baba Farid’s Bani: Tonight I did not sleep with my husband, my limbs are aching…..

When he transliterated it in simple Punjabi, there arose furor from girls side for ‘obscenity’ in the verse. He then told us that in our old culture wife could NEVER get or think of ‘another’ husband. So our Gurus deemed and depicted themselves as women of God. Like a woman they would not think of another God.

So readers; our Gurus called themselves as ‘woman’ of God.

Now the last and perhaps the most important point of contention :Jatt vs. Dalit. Brother; there is a Punjabi song : wounds of heart are new, touch them not. You have pricked those wounds. So if I say something wrong, I presume you will please show maturity and take it in right perspective.
  DV and its writers NEVER repeat NEVER want a split between the two Sikh famalies. Yes, I agree being Dalits, we take little more side of Dalits. BUT when outsiders i.e. Brahmanists attack Sikhism we are equally or more pained than the Jatts. Right from Bhai Bala & Mardana to Sardar Beant Singh we have served, the Sikh Panth with our sweat and blood. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE OCCASION WHEN WE TURNED GANGU OR MAHA SINGH. Our ancestors always stood by the Gurus and the Panth in thick and thin. 

It was unblemished services rendered by our ancestors that Dasham Pitah said: Ranghrete Guru ke Bete! Did he ever utter such words for Jatts? If we compare services of Jatt and Dalits, one truth NONE can deny or refute: our forefathers never compelled our Guru to write ‘bedava’. So ours service to the cause of Sikhism is much more greater than that of the Jatts.

Even S. Ranjit Singh was a Sansi (a Dalit caste) who covered Darbar Sahib with gold!

For more details you may please read : Sikh Panth De Rakhe : Dalits. After reading his book, it appears Sikhism survived due to sacrifices of Dalits only.

Now please compare what Jatts and Dalits are getting from the Gurudwaras. How many of the five Jathedars are Dalits? How many Pardhans of SGPC have been Dalits? How many Pardhans of Akali Dal have been Dalits? How many Sikh CMs have been Dalits? How many Ministers, DCs, SPs etc etc are Dalits. Whereas Population-wise Dalits outnuber Jatts.

Mr. Balwant Singh, are we there only to shed our blood? When ‘Guru ke Bete’ are more in numbers, why they are lesser in positions? Undoubtedly, we have shed our blood more in quantity and, of course, in quality.  

Guru Gobind Singh put his turban with ‘Kalgi’ on the head of S. Sangat Singh while leaving fort of Chamkor Sahib. The Moughals shreded body of S. Sangat Singh. Can you quote how many Gurudwaras have been erected in his name while full city of Muktsar and its Gurudwara has been dedicated to 40 Sikhs who betrayed but later on joined him.

GGS called us his Bete i.e. sons. Can you tell me, how many Betes of the Guru have been married into the families of Jatts?

I am Punjabi by blood and Sikh by practice. I have lived in villages of Punjab. I have seen life of ‘Seeris’ who are none other than Dalits. The house where I lived belonged to a Jattt. He knew my caste. He or his family never showed ill will towards me. But their seeri was always offered food in separate utensils which he had to clean himself and keep in a shed where buffalos were reared. 

This is the position of ‘Guru ke Bete”. 

You say it is Be-adbi to call Guru Ravidas as ‘Guru’ when the GGS is installed. It is purely your personal interpretation. We have been doing it since decades; none objected. Anyhow, my point is; if this is be-adbi what you will call when a person sits in chair before the GGS. And more importantly when his seat is higher than that of the GGS!

Why it was and it is NOT found to be be-adbi by you people? If I say because the person sitting on a higher seat was Jatt CM so you ignored him, you will say we are dividing Jatt and Dalits.

Readers, why same rule, same stick is not used to punish a be-adab fellow, may he be Balwant or kuldip? Why Dalits and Jatts are punished under different rules? 

If Guru Har Rai could disown his son for mere reciting one word wrongly, how can you be a true Sikh by owning a be-adabi fellow? Can you dare disown him? Had it been S. Buta Singh or Giani Zail Singh, he would have been declared ‘tankhayiya’.

The list is perhaps endless. Let us bury the hatchet. Lets fight our enemy, if you can see him. Please cleanse our Gurughars of RSSians. Do not use term ‘temples’ for Gurudwara. Temples are citadels of sins. Kick away sons of Gangu, if you can.

Dear readers, I hope you would understand our feelings. Perhaps the times of selfless service are over. Today’s generation demands more than what it does. The successors of Sardar Beant Singh (modern day martyre) do not want to be as selfless as that of Sardar Sangat Singh or Sardar Jiwan Singh. The “Kanshi Ram effect” (The Greater the number, the greater the share) is fast gaining momentum. It has become watchword for the new generation. The Sooner we accept it, the Better it would be.

Dasham Pitah gave us sword and we shed our blood for him. So he called us ‘Sons’. Guru Ravidas shed his blood for us. Hence we call him our ‘Father’. Thus we are sons equally to both the Gurus.

  So dear readers do not object to us calling our father a ‘Guru’. He is Guru.

  Dear readers, I hope you would please ponder over my submissions with calm heart. I wish to apologise in advance; if I said something wrong.

Kind Regards


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## Randip Singh (Feb 26, 2010)

bhimsen said:


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{font-family:Calibri;     panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;     mso-font-ch{censored}t:0;     mso-generic-font-family:swiss;     mso-font-pitch:variable;     mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;}  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal     {mso-style-unhide:no;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     margin:0cm;     margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:12.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";     mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink     {mso-style-priority:99;     color:blue;     text-decoration:underline;     text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed     {mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     colorurple;     mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink;     text-decoration:underline;     text-underline:single;} .MsoChpDefault     {mso-style-type:export-only;     mso-default-props:yes;     font-size:10.0pt;     mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;     mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1     {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;     margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;     mso-header-margin:36.0pt;     mso-footer-margin:36.0pt;     mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1     {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0cm;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->Ravidassia religion is the outcome of our bitter experience with sikh religion. It has nothing to do with hindu religion at this point. Those who announced themselve Ravidassia were having faith in Guru Granth, they were separated from hindu long long ago. So I will discuss only bad points of sikh attitude in this mail. Everyone knows that we were not being treated equally in sikh Gurdwaras. Sikhs have lots of problems when we call _*Guru*_ to Ravidass ji Maharaj. They don't like Guru Ravidass ji's picture in Guru Ravidas Gurughar. They tell us that you guys are coming to Gurughar with covered head where your Guru's picture is with uncovered head. So we are not independent even in our own Gurughars. I heard a few months ago that UK sikhs were complaining of Guru Ravidass ji's picture in Guru Ravidass Gurughar, they posponed this objection after the involvement of SGPC chief Makkar. I learned that UK Ravidassia's had to beg to keep their Guru's picture in their own Gurudwara. We are facing countless problems from sikhs. _Rehat Maryada_ is the term used as an excuse to step on us, actually they are not able to digest our progress. So if you keep all these things in mind you will not find anything wrong in announcing a new religion. Some people say that instead of running away we should fight for justice, I want to say that you fight and waste your time, money and young blood for what? If someone cannot survive without Guru Granth, then  www.srigranth.org is the site, go and read online, no one will come to check you whether you covered your head or put off the shoes or not.
> Don't give second vienna to your next generation. Be wise and instead of borrowing, have your own.
> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
> <!--[endif]-->[/FONT]



Lets us get one thing straight.

There is no Guru but the Guru Granth Sahib ji for Sikhs. As far as I am concerned there should not be ANY pictures of ANY Guru's, Sants, Bhaghtas, Tom's, ****'s or Harjeets in ANY Gurudwara's everywhere.

Please stop with the sob story, about Ravidassia's being treated badly, because if you are a true Sikh of the Guru then you will never take oppression. So called "Chammars" joined Bandha Bahadhurs armies and that of the Bhangi Misls in their hundreds and thousands and *fought like Lions.*

They did not see themselves inferior. Look at the BRAVE Mazbhi Sikhs (Weavers, Choorahs and Chammars) and try tell them they are inferior. They will beat people to a pulp and defend their Sardari with their lives.

The so called Ravidassi's of today, are not fit to lick the boots of their illustrious Ravidassi Sikh ancestors.

As far as I am concerned Ravidasi's are behaving just like Jatts, who they say oppress them. They are so egotistical they think that they can run Gurudwara's how they please. The same goes for Ramgarhias, Bhatra's, Namdhari's and other splinter groups.

And let us get one last point straight, Bhaghat Ravidas would have had no Bani whatoever to even save, if it had not been for the Guru's. The Ten Guru's saved the Bani's of Bhaghat Ravidas and stopped the Brahmanical tampering of it and incorporated in the Guru Granth Sahib. To take parts out of it is like dismembering a body.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 26, 2010)

bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> [/FONT]
> First of all, I must concede: I am not a scholar; and perhaps, not a ‘Sikh’ too. I do revere Guru Granth Sahib and its creators: right from Guru Nanak to Guru Ravidas and Guru Kabir.[/FONT]
> You have objections on my calling Guru Ravidas as ‘Guru’. You say Sikh tenets so lay down. Can you please quote where it is laid down that except ten Gurus, none else be called ‘Guru’ though *their* Bani is respected as Guru Granth Sahib. I presume you have no evidence of such Sikh tenets.[/FONT]



If you revere the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji they OBEY the command of the 10th Guru. Guru Maneo Granth. Accept the 5 k's, and accept not other Guru than the 11th Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji).

We see only one Guru, when we see the eleven Guru's.

Also there are many other Bhaghats whose teachings have been included in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji:

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Compilation of SGGS.pdf


-Bhaghat Fareed
-Bhaghat Dhana
-Bhagat Beni
- Bhaghat Namdev
-Bhaghat Sadana

etc etc

Note also, some of the teachings of the Bhaghats were REJECTED. For example Sekh Farid, on some of his views on Islam. Bhaghat Kabirs writings on women (he describes them as a black cobra).






bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> On my part, I have following arguments/evidence for calling him Guru:[/FONT]
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->1.       [/FONT]<!--[endif]-->The GGS is creation of some Sikh Gurus and other Saints. They created Bani of the GGS. That means they created the GGS. A creator is always greater than his creation. *Hence these saints are GREATER than the GGS which contains their creations. *If the GGS could be called Guru, its creators too are ‘Guru’ and are supposed to be bestowed with greater reverence than the GGS itself.[/FONT][/FONT]




*No*

As stated above much of the writings of the Bhaghats were rejected from the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Hence why ppeople who follow specific teachings are known by names such as Kabir Panthi's, and those people are Vashnavites, which Sikhs are not.

The Guru's ONLY chose those verses from the Bhaghats that were compatible with Sikh thought.




bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->2.      [/FONT]<!--[endif]-->Undoubtedly and unquestionably, the GGS is greater than all Sikhs. For a moment, we agree it refers to all non-Sikh Saints as Bhagat. BUT where does it say that these Saints be called Bhagat by ordinary Sikhs. How can you equate yourself with the GGS in calling them Bhagat? If the GGS call them Bhagat, are you too the GGS or equal to the GGS that you are calling them Bhagat! If my father called my Chacha as “Ramu”, does it mean, I too can call him ‘Ramu’? [/FONT]



That argument is spurious. A slave ONLY has ONE master. A Sikh ONLY has ONE teacher.

The Light of the Guru's was passed from Baba Nanak, to Guru Angad Dev ji etc etc, to the 10th Master, who then stated that the Jyot is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is Guru Sri Granth Sahib ji that is the Master now, and the Jot ONLY passed down the line of the Guru's, not the Bhaghats.

For example, if I called Shaikh Farid my Guru then I would have to be a Muslim. If I called Bhaghat Kabir my Guru I would have to be a Vashnavite. We recognise the teachings, but we also reject some of the Bhaghat teachings.




bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->3.      [/FONT]<!--[endif]-->If you interpret that their Bani is classified under “Bhagat Bani”, hence you call them Bhagat. Then why on the same criterion, those be not called “Mahila” who named themselves as such in the the GGS?[/FONT]



See above.




bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->4.      [/FONT]<!--[endif]-->Guru Nanak brought Guru Ravidas ji’s bani and he used to sing the same while preaching his Dharma. His successor Gurus watched Guru Nanak singing Bani of Guru Ravidas. Hence, they deemed it fit to adorn the GGS with his Bani. If GND is revered as Guru then why not that Guru be revered as Guru whose Bani this Guru sang in spreading his Dharam? Our founder Guru carried his Bani on his head and we are calling the creator of such bani to be Bhagat i.e. follower!! How ridiculous!! GND CAN NOT be called Guru unless and until we revere Guru Ravidas as Guru.[/FONT][/FONT]



Some of Bhaghat Ravidas's teachings are included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but not ALL. Only that the Guru's felt compatible with Sikh ideology.



bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->5.      [/FONT]<!--[endif]-->Leave aside all! When Guru Gobind Singh commanded that ‘henceforth only the GGS would be treated as Guru’. “[/FONT]Sab Sikhon ko hukam hai Guru Manyo Granth” what did he mean? Did he mean “the bundle of printed pages that are fastened inside a cover so that you can turn them and read them i.e. book” be revered as Guru? NO, not at all. He meant the Bani and their creators be treated as guide (Guru) to live a solemn life. Did he differentiate between Bani of Sikh Gurus and that those of non- Sikh Gurus while adorning the GGS as Guru! [/FONT]
> If the Commander has not said so, who the anybody else are to say so![/FONT]
> So Brother DONOT utter Brahmanic words. Lets be guided by our Gurus and their deeds. Guru Ravidas *is* as much Sikh Guru as are GND and the GGS.[/FONT]
> ...



I think you have massive gaps in your knowledge.

Your premise is wrong because you do not realise that not ALL Bhaghat Bani is recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Much of it was rejected.

Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru, which means teacher. It is the word contained inside which flows directly down the lineage of teh 10 Guru's that we accept.

We accept those words of Bhaghats that are compatible with Sikh theoligy, but the Bhaghats ARE not a SIKHS Guru.




bhimsen said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CMATRIX%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:<img src=" http:="" www.sikhphilosophy.net="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>
> In our school times, our Punjabi teacher was Giani Thakar Singh. He would often tell us that the Bhai of gurudwara is wrongly reciting the Bani; he is pronouncing [/FONT]Mahila as [/FONT]mahhla. Like you, we too would say; how can a man be ‘woman’ of God! But it is![/FONT]
> In our college days, our Punjabi teacher Dr. Harchand Singh Chand was once teaching us Baba Farid’s Bani: [/FONT]Tonight I did not sleep with my husband, my limbs are aching…..
> When he transliterated it in simple Punjabi, there arose furor from girls side for ‘obscenity’ in the verse. He then told us that in our old culture wife could NEVER get or think of ‘another’ husband. So our Gurus deemed and depicted themselves as women of God. Like a woman they would not think of another God.[/FONT]
> ...



From what I gather above, your beef is with Jatts, so why bring Bani into this. By claiming that Bhaghat Ravidas is in effect higher, than Bani, you are playing into their hands.

By accepting the Hukam of the Guru, not one person would be able to point a finger at you.

On the point of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, I am inclined to believe he was fro  Sansi caste too.


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 26, 2010)

Bhimsen ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have one simple question for you. What names or titles did our Gurus give themselves in SGGS and what title did they give to Ravidas?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## roab1 (Feb 26, 2010)

Bhim Sen, it would be wise, perhaps, if you do not use the name of Khastriya warrior Bhim (Pandus son). Bhim was also a Jatt.


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## roab1 (Feb 26, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Bhimsen ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Bhim sen ji

And while you answer that, answer this too

What title did Ravidas give to himself in Guru Granth Sahib?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 27, 2010)

The Super I *** T who created this "New Granth of  bani" is none other than a SIKH..named Sabaar..who is in the SGPC and also Chairman of the Bhagat ravidass CHAIR.
In other words the SGPC created and FUNDED this new granth. Now after the cat jumped out of the bag..the Akal Takhat Jathedar had to come out with a statement saying..IF proven sabbar will be punished accordingly...

2. Btw there is also a SATGURU ram Singh Chair in the GURU Nanak University....funded by ??? If Sikhs can stomach this INSULT to "GURU" Nanak via a  "SATGURU" ???i dont know where their GAIRAT IS..their Zameer is ?? anaakh is ?? AS no body protested since past few years..the answer is sikhs have no annkh, zameer or gairatt. So i cna expect a SATGURU GRANTH to emerge form Sikh Funds as well...

3. The Nanni Chhan project...of Harsimrat badal is FUNDED 100% $$$ from SGPC GOLUCK...BUT 100% of its Chairman/Board of directors are RADHA SOAMIS. Not a single Sikh on it....

THIS is called..SAADEE JUTTEE SADDEH SIR...use our own SHOE to WHACK US on our Heads !! WE provide the MONEY..the FUNDS..the Chairs..the Organsiation...for our own destruction....with friends like these who needs enemies...


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## Randip Singh (Feb 27, 2010)

Gyani Ji lets prepare ourselves:

- Ramgarhias will take out sections of Guru Granth Sahib ji mentioning Lalo, and call it Sri Guru Amrit Tarkhan Bani
- Ramdasi's will take out Kabir's Bani and call it Sri Guru Amrit Julaha Bani

etc etc.

Divided we Fall!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 27, 2010)

BUT we will NOT publish a SGGS without those Banis...EVER !! let the Prodigal sons go away....those who elarn the hard way..will return..those who dont..good riddance...
OUR SGGS present sroop is by Guru JI..and is our GURU...notwithstanding what others do and want..we will MAINTAIN SGGS as SGGS always.


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## bhimsen (Feb 27, 2010)

Dear Randeep Ji,
I admire your passion and your reply is equally paraise worthy. I totally agree with you, when you said that "there should not be ANY pictures of ANY Guru's, Sants, Bhaghtas, Tom's,  ****'s or Harjeets in ANY Gurudwara's everywhere", then would you give the same message to all of the sikh faith and ask them to remove all the pictures of Sant Bhiundran Wale and others declared as shaheeds because they were sikh's, even though they died for the resons which are nothing to do with the sikh religion, let alone the Bhagat's and and the Guru's. 

However please have a read of the post below; this is the re-post of the same from earlier.
Best Regards

*Re-posted*

Dear readers,

First of all, I must concede: I am not a scholar; and perhaps, not a  ‘Sikh’ too. I do revere Guru Granth Sahib and its creators: right from  Guru Nanak to Guru Ravidas and Guru Kabir.

You have objections on my calling Guru Ravidas as ‘Guru’. You say Sikh  tenets so lay down. Can you please quote where it is laid down that  except ten Gurus, none else be called ‘Guru’ though their Bani is  respected as Guru Granth Sahib. I presume you have no evidence of such  Sikh tenets.

On my part, I have following arguments/evidence for calling him Guru:
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->
1.       <!--[endif]-->The GGS is creation of some Sikh Gurus and other  Saints. They created Bani of the GGS. That means they created the GGS. A  creator is always greater than his creation. Hence these saints are  GREATER than the GGS which contains their creations. If the GGS could be  called Guru, its creators too are ‘Guru’ and are supposed to be  bestowed with greater reverence than the GGS itself.
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->
2.      <!--[endif]-->Undoubtedly and unquestionably, the GGS is greater  than all Sikhs. For a moment, we agree it refers to all non-Sikh Saints  as Bhagat. BUT where does it say that these Saints be called Bhagat by  ordinary Sikhs. How can you equate yourself with the GGS in calling them  Bhagat? If the GGS call them Bhagat, are you too the GGS or equal to  the GGS that you are calling them Bhagat! If my father called my Chacha  as “Ramu”, does it mean, I too can call him ‘Ramu’? 
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->
3.      <!--[endif]-->If you interpret that their Bani is classified  under “Bhagat Bani”, hence you call them Bhagat. Then why on the same  criterion, those be not called “Mahila” who named themselves as such in  the the GGS?
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->
4.      <!--[endif]-->Guru Nanak brought Guru Ravidas ji’s bani and he  used to sing the same while preaching his Dharma. His successor Gurus  watched Guru Nanak singing Bani of Guru Ravidas. Hence, they deemed it  fit to adorn the GGS with his Bani. If GND is revered as Guru then why  not that Guru be revered as Guru whose Bani this Guru sang in spreading  his Dharam? Our founder Guru carried his Bani on his head and we are  calling the creator of such bani to be Bhagat i.e. follower!! How  ridiculous!! GND CAN NOT be called Guru unless and until we revere Guru  Ravidas as Guru.
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->
5.      <!--[endif]-->Leave aside all! When Guru Gobind Singh commanded  that ‘henceforth only the GGS would be treated as Guru’. “Sab Sikhon ko  hukam hai Guru Manyo Granth” what did he mean? Did he mean “the bundle  of printed pages that are fastened inside a cover so that you can turn  them and read them i.e. book” be revered as Guru? NO, not at all. He  meant the Bani and their creators be treated as guide (Guru) to live a  solemn life. Did he differentiate between Bani of Sikh Gurus and that  those of non- Sikh Gurus while adorning the GGS as Guru! 

If the Commander has not said so, who the anybody else are to say so!
   So Brother DONOT utter Brahmanic words. Lets be guided by our Gurus  and their deeds. Guru Ravidas is as much Sikh Guru as are GND and the  GGS.
  Though relevent, I am not discussing here the point that most of the  scholars agree that GND was baptized follower of Guru Kabir, a Dharam  Bhai of Guru Ravidas. Saint Satpal of Satlok Ashram Barwala, a follower  of Guru Kabir preaches this everywhere he goes.

So far as the term Mahila is concerned, there may be some Arabic term as  such but HERE IN THE GGS THE TERM MAHILA HAS BEEN USED TO MEAN A WOMAN.  Here it is NOT an Arabic term. Bhai Kahhan Singh has specifically  stated in Mahankosh (Pp. 3274 & 3284) that Sikh Gurus have called  themselves Mahila i.e Stri or wife, woman. So brother, have courage to  accept Truth.

In our school times, our Punjabi teacher was Giani Thakar Singh. He  would often tell us that the Bhai of gurudwara is wrongly reciting the  Bani; he is pronouncing Mahila as mahhla. Like you, we too would say;  how can a man be ‘woman’ of God! But it is!

In our college days, our Punjabi teacher Dr. Harchand Singh Chand was  once teaching us Baba Farid’s Bani: Tonight I did not sleep with my  husband, my limbs are aching…..

When he transliterated it in simple Punjabi, there arose furor from  girls side for ‘obscenity’ in the verse. He then told us that in our old  culture wife could NEVER get or think of ‘another’ husband. So our  Gurus deemed and depicted themselves as women of God. Like a woman they  would not think of another God.

So readers; our Gurus called themselves as ‘woman’ of God.

Now the last and perhaps the most important point of contention :Jatt  vs. Dalit. Brother; there is a Punjabi song : wounds of heart are new,  touch them not. You have pricked those wounds. So if I say something  wrong, I presume you will please show maturity and take it in right  perspective.
  DV and its writers NEVER repeat NEVER want a split between the two  Sikh famalies. Yes, I agree being Dalits, we take little more side of  Dalits. BUT when outsiders i.e. Brahmanists attack Sikhism we are  equally or more pained than the Jatts. Right from Bhai Bala &  Mardana to Sardar Beant Singh we have served, the Sikh Panth with our  sweat and blood. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE OCCASION WHEN WE TURNED  GANGU OR MAHA SINGH. Our ancestors always stood by the Gurus and the  Panth in thick and thin. 

It was unblemished services rendered by our ancestors that Dasham Pitah  said: Ranghrete Guru ke Bete! Did he ever utter such words for Jatts? If  we compare services of Jatt and Dalits, one truth NONE can deny or  refute: our forefathers never compelled our Guru to write ‘bedava’. So  ours service to the cause of Sikhism is much more greater than that of  the Jatts.

Even S. Ranjit Singh was a Sansi (a Dalit caste) who covered Darbar  Sahib with gold!

For more details you may please read : Sikh Panth De Rakhe : Dalits.  After reading his book, it appears Sikhism survived due to sacrifices of  Dalits only.

Now please compare what Jatts and Dalits are getting from the  Gurudwaras. How many of the five Jathedars are Dalits? How many Pardhans  of SGPC have been Dalits? How many Pardhans of Akali Dal have been  Dalits? How many Sikh CMs have been Dalits? How many Ministers, DCs, SPs  etc etc are Dalits. Whereas Population-wise Dalits outnuber Jatts.

Dear readers, are we there only to shed our blood? When ‘Guru ke  Bete’ are more in numbers, why they are lesser in positions?  Undoubtedly, we have shed our blood more in quantity and, of course, in  quality.  

Guru Gobind Singh put his turban with ‘Kalgi’ on the head of S. Sangat  Singh while leaving fort of Chamkor Sahib. The Moughals shreded body of  S. Sangat Singh. Can you quote how many Gurudwaras have been erected in  his name while full city of Muktsar and its Gurudwara has been dedicated  to 40 Sikhs who betrayed but later on joined him.

GGS called us his Bete i.e. sons. Can you tell me, how many Betes of the  Guru have been married into the families of Jatts?

I am Punjabi by blood and Sikh by practice. I have lived in villages of  Punjab. I have seen life of ‘Seeris’ who are none other than Dalits. The  house where I lived belonged to a Jattt. He knew my caste. He or his  family never showed ill will towards me. But their seeri was always  offered food in separate utensils which he had to clean himself and keep  in a shed where buffalos were reared. 

This is the position of ‘Guru ke Bete”. 

You say it is Be-adbi to call Guru Ravidas as ‘Guru’ when the GGS is  installed. It is purely your personal interpretation. We have been doing  it since decades; none objected. Anyhow, my point is; if this is  be-adbi what you will call when a person sits in chair before the GGS.  And more importantly when his seat is higher than that of the GGS!

Why it was and it is NOT found to be be-adbi by you people? If I say  because the person sitting on a higher seat was Jatt CM so you ignored  him, you will say we are dividing Jatt and Dalits.

Readers, why same rule, same stick is not used to punish a be-adab  fellow, may he be Balwant or kuldip? Why Dalits and Jatts are punished  under different rules? 

If Guru Har Rai could disown his son for mere reciting one word wrongly,  how can you be a true Sikh by owning a be-adabi fellow? Can you dare  disown him? Had it been S. Buta Singh or Giani Zail Singh, he would have  been declared ‘tankhayiya’.

The list is perhaps endless. Let us bury the hatchet. Lets fight our  enemy, if you can see him. Please cleanse our Gurughars of RSSians. Do  not use term ‘temples’ for Gurudwara. Temples are citadels of sins. Kick  away sons of Gangu, if you can.

Dear readers, I hope you would understand our feelings. Perhaps the  times of selfless service are over. Today’s generation demands more than  what it does. The successors of Sardar Beant Singh (modern day martyre)  do not want to be as selfless as that of Sardar Sangat Singh or Sardar  Jiwan Singh. The “Kanshi Ram effect” (The Greater the number, the  greater the share) is fast gaining momentum. It has become watchword for  the new generation. The Sooner we accept it, the Better it would be.

Dasham Pitah gave us sword and we shed our blood for him. So he called  us ‘Sons’. Guru Ravidas shed his blood for us. Hence we call him our  ‘Father’. Thus we are sons equally to both the Gurus.

  So dear readers do not object to us calling our father a ‘Guru’. He is  Guru.

  Dear readers, I hope you would please ponder over my submissions with  calm heart. I wish to apologise in advance; if I said something wrong.

Kind Regards


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## bhimsen (Feb 27, 2010)

Dear sir,
Please read the post again. The answer you are looking for is already in that post.
Kind Regards


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## roab1 (Feb 27, 2010)

bhimsen said:


> Dear Randeep Ji,
> 
> 
> Dear readers,
> ...



_Can you point out where the person you want to call guru addresses himself as such? Can you please quote relevent verses? It is obvious you have no knowledge about what you are talking about. Everyone is adressed as per their title in Guru Granth Sahib._




> 1.       <!--[endif]-->The GGS is creation of some Sikh Gurus and other  Saints. They created Bani of the GGS. That means they created the GGS. A  creator is always greater than his creation. Hence these saints are  GREATER than the GGS which contains their creations. If the GGS could be  called Guru, its creators too are ‘Guru’ and are supposed to be  bestowed with greater reverence than the GGS itself.



_You probably dont even know that 'Khalsa' was also made 'corporal Guru' in addition to SGGS by Guru Gobind Singh. That is why it is called Guru Panth Khalsa. The panth as a whole is equal to SGGS. By panth i mean not those who 'believe' or 'respect' SGGS, but those Sikhs who follow rehit maryada. _

_The SGGS is not creation of some Gurus. It is divine relevation, if you know what that means. The SGGS as a whole is Guru and became Guru when it was made such by preceding Guru. Read the verses of Saints to know what they were instead of making assumptions about how great they were. If some is taken out, like in gutke, it does not become Guru or greater. To be Guru it has to be whole Guru Granth Sahib, the way it was made by Guru Gobind Singh. Bani of Bhagats is not guru, but only when it is presented as  part of SGGs, it is 'part' of Guru. The creator is not always greater than its creation. Guru Gobind Singh bowed and took 'pahul' from the 'Khalsa' he created and was 'ordered' and even 'punshied' by his creation. _

 <!--[if !supportLists]-->


> 2.      <!--[endif]-->Undoubtedly and unquestionably, the GGS is greater  than all Sikhs. For a moment, we agree it refers to all non-Sikh Saints  as Bhagat. BUT where does it say that these Saints be called Bhagat by  ordinary Sikhs. How can you equate yourself with the GGS in calling them  Bhagat? If the GGS call them Bhagat, are you too the GGS or equal to  the GGS that you are calling them Bhagat! If my father called my Chacha  as “Ramu”, does it mean, I too can call him ‘Ramu’?
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->



_Guruship was also given to 'Khalsa panth'. And 'Khalsa' stands on equal footing with SGGS. Khalsa is worthy of all respect enjoyed by Guru, however it being 'saint-soldier' it doesnt accept it would also be impossible. The Bhagats are called Bhagats because our Guru, SGGS, says so. However it does not guide us to address bhagats as 'Guru'. You would call your chacha 'Ramu' if you were not prohibited by your Father or 'Ramu' himself. Lots of small children address even their parents by their name following other members of family. Only when they get older and it looks embarrasing, they are 'told' how to 'behave'. 

Now i ask you where does it occur how the Bhagats should be addressed as Guru? You use SGGS as an example so answer withing the domain of SGGS or the way bhagats themselves wanted to be addressed._

_Atleast the Bhagats are given respect in it, otherwise the words that bhagat Ravidas chooses for defining himself are really cheap and would land a person in prison if he were to adress another person with the words Bhagat ravidas used for himself. _




> 3.      <!--[endif]-->If you interpret that their Bani is classified  under “Bhagat Bani”, hence you call them Bhagat. Then why on the same  criterion, those be not called “Mahila” who named themselves as such in  the the GGS?


 <!--[if !supportLists]-->

_You have serious defect in your knowledge, the next time you see the 'giani' who taught you properly kick him, if he is alive. 
And also learn some gurmukhi grammer. If you read SGGS and know punjabi then tell me, is 'siyaari' use in the term 'mohalla'_?



> 4.      <!--[endif]-->Guru Nanak brought Guru Ravidas ji’s bani and he  used to sing the same while preaching his Dharma. His successor Gurus  watched Guru Nanak singing Bani of Guru Ravidas. Hence, they deemed it  fit to adorn the GGS with his Bani. If GND is revered as Guru then why  not that Guru be revered as Guru whose Bani this Guru sang in spreading  his Dharam? Our founder Guru carried his Bani on his head and we are  calling the creator of such bani to be Bhagat i.e. follower!! How  ridiculous!! GND CAN NOT be called Guru unless and until we revere Guru  Ravidas as Guru.
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->


_What is your source? Similar type of another source mentions a party of Bhagats led by Kbir begging Guru Arjan Dev to include their work in SGGS. Instead of reading half baked lies read what Bhagat Ravidas' observations about his self and stature. Did Guru Nanak write about hoe Bhagat ravidas should be addressed? Or should i follow what Bhagat Ravidas calls himself and addess him as 'neech' (rascal) Ravidas? It is Bhagat Ravidas who addresses himself as a devotee. And if you know so much history, why are ignoring the 'real' Guru of Bhagat Ravidas, Ramanand?_




> 5.      <!--[endif]-->Leave aside all! When Guru Gobind Singh commanded  that ‘henceforth only the GGS would be treated as Guru’. “Sab Sikhon ko  hukam hai Guru Manyo Granth” what did he mean? Did he mean “the bundle  of printed pages that are fastened inside a cover so that you can turn  them and read them i.e. book” be revered as Guru? NO, not at all. He  meant the Bani and their creators be treated as guide (Guru) to live a  solemn life. Did he differentiate between Bani of Sikh Gurus and that  those of non- Sikh Gurus while adorning the GGS as Guru!



_Did you read the next line too or were you taught only one line by your 'giani'? What does 'Guru Granth ji Maneyo Pragat Guran ki deh' and 'Jo Prabh Ko Mil Boch Hai Khoj Shabd Mein Leh' mean?_

_'Take the Granth as 'body' of Gurus and 'those who desire to meet Lord can do so in the verses of the Granth'.

Did he (tenth guru) tell what to call 'Bhagats' of Guru Granth Sahib? He made their Bani Guru when part of SGGS, not the Bhagats._

_Do you follo his other directive of not cutting the hair and keeping five K's and believe that wherever Khalsa in form of 'panj piare' is present, recognise it is him? Have you read all other scriptures outside SGGS?_



> If the Commander has not said so, who the anybody else are to say so!



_What and where did he say to call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru? And why are you not following his directive to recognise SGGS as 'Body' of Gurus by constantly calling it a book?_




> So Brother DONOT utter Brahmanic words. Lets be guided by our Gurus  and their deeds. Guru Ravidas is as much Sikh Guru as are GND and the  GGS.



_Brahmanic words are present as Bani in our Guru Granth Sahib. So do not bring your castesim into everything. Everyone has been given a place in Gurus house as per 'ek noor te sab bande' (all of mankind is from same source).

Going by your theory, you should also accpet 'Brahmans' as 'Guru'_.



> Though relevent, I am not discussing here the point that most of the  scholars agree that GND was baptized follower of Guru Kabir, a Dharam  Bhai of Guru Ravidas. Saint Satpal of Satlok Ashram Barwala, a follower  of Guru Kabir preaches this everywhere he goes.


_Sant Gurmeet ram Rahim says he is modern incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh. Sant Ashutosh says he is 'true Khalsa'. Sant Sai Baba says he is GOD. We know what is the truth, dont we?

As for Kabir being Guru Nanak Dev, that is utterly childish. Which scholar say that by the way? A lot of scholar also say, Sikhs are Hindus, Guru Gobind Singh was Durga Bhagat, Sikhs are criminal tribe etc etc.Are you really that naive to belive whatever?_



> So far as the term Mahila is concerned, there may be some Arabic term as  such but HERE IN THE GGS THE TERM MAHILA HAS BEEN USED TO MEAN A WOMAN.  Here it is NOT an Arabic term. Bhai Kahhan Singh has specifically  stated in Mahankosh (Pp. 3274 & 3284) that Sikh Gurus have called  themselves Mahila i.e Stri or wife, woman. So brother, have courage to  accept Truth.


_Only a person who has no knowledge about punjabi and SGGS can say that. Thaat is height of stupidity. Mohalla is like a dwelling. Mahila is a woman. Did you see the 'addak' above the letter M and see there is no 'siyaari' before M? Do you know what ADDAK and SIYARI is? _



> In our school times, our Punjabi teacher was Giani Thakar Singh. He  would often tell us that the Bhai of gurudwara is wrongly reciting the  Bani; he is pronouncing Mahila as mahhla. Like you, we too would say;  how can a man be ‘woman’ of God! But it is!


 _No wonder, i am not at all surprised. _




> In our college days, our Punjabi teacher Dr. Harchand Singh Chand was  once teaching us Baba Farid’s Bani: Tonight I did not sleep with my  husband, my limbs are aching…..
> 
> _When he transliterated it in simple Punjabi, there arose furor from  girls side for ‘obscenity’ in the verse. He then told us that in our old  culture wife could NEVER get or think of ‘another’ husband. So our  Gurus deemed and depicted themselves as women of God. Like a woman they  would not think of another God._
> 
> So readers; our Gurus called themselves as ‘woman’ of God.


_It would be nice if you know the whole verse and how it is addressed. Guruji is talking about meeting between 'soul' bride and 'husband' God. _



> Now the last and perhaps the most important point of contention :Jatt  vs. Dalit. Brother; there is a Punjabi song : wounds of heart are new,  touch them not. You have pricked those wounds. So if I say something  wrong, I presume you will please show maturity and take it in right  perspective.
> DV and its writers NEVER repeat NEVER want a split between the two  Sikh famalies. Yes, I agree being Dalits, we take little more side of  Dalits. BUT when outsiders i.e. Brahmanists attack Sikhism we are  equally or more pained than the Jatts. Right from Bhai Bala &  Mardana to Sardar Beant Singh we have served, the Sikh Panth with our  sweat and blood. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE OCCASION WHEN WE TURNED  GANGU OR MAHA SINGH. Our ancestors always stood by the Gurus and the  Panth in thick and thin.



_For you knowledge Bhai mardana was a Sandhu Jatt!! Sardar Beant Singh was well...a Singh. You also gave example of Sangat Singh. He was one of 'forty' Singhs who fought and attained shaheedi with chote sahibzade. Only three escaped. Have you considered how many non-chammars have contributed to Sikhism or SGGS? The ratio of chammars is very small compared to non-chamaars. As for identifying yourself with 'Dalit' , technically chamaars are not the lowest so should not be termed as Dalit. And dont worry, some Jatt groups hav ebeen fighting for reservation too. Then it shall get more interesting if they succeed. You will then whine how they snatched your share of 'reservation' too.

Can i ask you a question in addition to many_

_How many Chamaars were shot, hanged, imprisoned for 'Indian Freedom Movement' and How many Sikhs? You got reservation after independance, right? So in reality you are eating food gotten by Sikhs! And also Gandhi, father of India, is from 'high caste'. So why are you living in a nation whose independance was got by a person from High Caste_?



> It was unblemished services rendered by our ancestors that Dasham Pitah  said: Ranghrete Guru ke Bete! Did he ever utter such words for Jatts? If  we compare services of Jatt and Dalits, one truth NONE can deny or  refute: our forefathers never compelled our Guru to write ‘bedava’. So  ours service to the cause of Sikhism is much more greater than that of  the Jatts.


_Rangrette were traditional sweepers! Chamaars are not Guru ke bete because for that you have to be
1. Gursikh
2 From sweeper caste.

And as Chamaars are from cobbler caste your point is totally absurd._

_Guru Gobind Singh didnt utter any word for ANY caste. He spoke only about casteless Khalsa and sadly many modern Sikhs would fail that in present times._


> Even S. Ranjit Singh was a Sansi (a Dalit caste) who covered Darbar  Sahib with gold!



_There are historical sources that point to ranjit also being from sandhu clan. Actually no actual record exists, so stop using historical people for your cause._



> For more details you may please read : Sikh Panth De Rakhe : Dalits.  After reading his book, it appears Sikhism survived due to sacrifices of  Dalits only.


_Dalits were never Sikh panth de rakhe (protectors of Sikhsim).Protecter is Bhagauti and Guru. Read proper history and contribution of people from all castes, and chamaars stand very low in that. You make those chamaars who contributed as 'parasites' who fed and grew from blood of Sikhi and now ant to take off after leeching all the blood you could. Shame Shame!!_



> Now please compare what Jatts and Dalits are getting from the  Gurudwaras. How many of the five Jathedars are Dalits? How many Pardhans  of SGPC have been Dalits? How many Pardhans of Akali Dal have been  Dalits? How many Sikh CMs have been Dalits? How many Ministers, DCs, SPs  etc etc are Dalits. Whereas Population-wise Dalits outnuber Jatts.


_ Dalit and Sikh is two different things. A casteist Dalit can never be Sikh leader. How many Dalits died for Sikhism? You have named inly a few whereas Sikhism history is full of shaheeds? Do you know 33% seats are reserved for Dalit Sikhs in SGPC? which is gainst Sikh tenets though. 

And why are you clubbing 'Dalit' with Chamaar'? Chammars might be a small quota of reservation system but you  want leadership in that too it seems! For your kind information majority of 'Dalits' are not chamaars and are mostly Hindu._ 



> Dear readers, are we there only to shed our blood? When ‘Guru ke  Bete’ are more in numbers, why they are lesser in positions?  Undoubtedly, we have shed our blood more in quantity and, of course, in  quality.



_What numbers? You are not even a Sikh and you have been shown who 'Guru ke Bete' (sons of Guru) are, and they are not non-sikh chamaars!_



> Guru Gobind Singh put his turban with ‘Kalgi’ on the head of S. Sangat  Singh while leaving fort of Chamkor Sahib. The Moughals shreded body of  S. Sangat Singh. Can you quote how many Gurudwaras have been erected in  his name while full city of Muktsar and its Gurudwara has been dedicated  to 40 Sikhs who betrayed but later on joined him.


_Do you know there were another 39 Sikhs in Chamkaur? Who were they? Have you visited gurdwara Qatalgarh Sahib, erected on place where the brave Sikhs died? Was sangat Singh chamaar? Stop lying without shame._



> GGS called us his Bete i.e. sons. Can you tell me, how many Betes of the  Guru have been married into the families of Jatts?


_Are you a true Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh? Speak for yourself. And why the obseeion of getting married into so called high caste? Inferiority complex?  Do believe yourself to be what Bhagat Ravidas calls himslef in SGGS, a lowly and cheap person_. 



> I am Punjabi by blood and Sikh by practice


.

_Then why are posing as a 'chamaar' and 'bipran ki reet' follower. Do you know taking out Bani from SGGS and forming another granth from it makes you a 'heretic'? Why are you lying so much?_



> I have lived in villages of  Punjab. I have seen life of ‘Seeris’ who are none other than Dalits. The  house where I lived belonged to a Jattt. He knew my caste. He or his  family never showed ill will towards me. But their seeri was always  offered food in separate utensils which he had to clean himself and keep  in a shed where buffalos were reared.



_So this means it was something related not to caste, otherwise you would have been fed alongside the 'seeri'. Was the family pooran Gursikh and followed proper Sikhism way of life? What about you?_



> This is the position of ‘Guru ke Bete”.



_Guru ke Bete

1. Were pooran Gursikh and from sweeper caste.
2. Got head of Ninth Guru after he was beheaded to Anandpur.
3. Were fighters of Sikh cause and part of Khalsa.
4. Never turned their back on Guru, even if they had to die.

Do you or that 'seeri' (farm labourer) fulfill that criteria?

And do you the caste of the person who burned his house to cremate ninth Gurus body? Is his contribution lesser than any other? What about 'Khatri' followers of Guru Tegh bahadur who were cut into two by saw and boiled alive? They all are connected to same event that earned 'sweepers' title of 'Guru Ke Bete'. Was any non-sikh or chamaar invloved in all this?_



> You say it is Be-adbi to call Guru Ravidas as ‘Guru’ when the GGS is  installed. It is purely your personal interpretation. We have been doing  it since decades; none objected. Anyhow, my point is; if this is  be-adbi what you will call when a person sits in chair before the GGS.  And more importantly when his seat is higher than that of the GGS!



_Nobody objects if Ravidas is called Guru. Ayurvedic university has been named Guru Ravidass university in Hoshiarpur. Stop spreading lies. Ravidas is called what he is called in SGGS. _



> Why it was and it is NOT found to be be-adbi by you people? If I say  because the person sitting on a higher seat was Jatt CM so you ignored  him, you will say we are dividing Jatt and Dalits.



_Do you know he has knee problems? Why dont you approach Akal takht on the matter? Same standard you apply to you. Why didnt you create communal riots when the Gurus beadbi was done? Why do you act only when the matter concerns Chamaar sant? If you read this forum than you must know Badal is not liked by majority of members and many Sikhs term him as eenemy of Sikhs._



> Readers, why same rule, same stick is not used to punish a be-adab  fellow, may he be Balwant or kuldip? Why Dalits and Jatts are punished  under different rules?



_It is you who is not following same rules._



> If Guru Har Rai could disown his son for mere reciting one word wrongly,  how can you be a true Sikh by owning a be-adabi fellow? Can you dare  disown him? Had it been S. Buta Singh or Giani Zail Singh, he would have  been declared ‘tankhayiya’.



_You know how politics are played, dont you?_



> The list is perhaps endless. Let us bury the hatchet. Lets fight our  enemy, if you can see him. Please cleanse our Gurughars of RSSians. Do  not use term ‘temples’ for Gurudwara. Temples are citadels of sins. Kick  away sons of Gangu, if you can


.

_We dont need non-sikh caste follwing persons as our allies. These type of persons are more dangerous than RSS. So dont hope anything from Sikhs. The real gangu it appears is you at the moment._



> Dear readers, I hope you would understand our feelings. Perhaps the  times of selfless service are over. Today’s generation demands more than  what it does. The successors of Sardar Beant Singh (modern day martyre)  do not want to be as selfless as that of Sardar Sangat Singh or Sardar  Jiwan Singh. The “Kanshi Ram effect” (The Greater the number, the  greater the share) is fast gaining momentum. It has become watchword for  the new generation. The Sooner we accept it, the Better it would be.


 
_You can play politics but gaing success is another matter. Knshi ram failed in Punjab, his place of birth. Life of Dalits is worse under rule of dalit CM in UP. Ambedkar also failed and almost all the people he converted to buddhism relapsed into Hindusim.
_
_And there is a wide idfference between a 'Dalit' and 'chamaar'. The movement for getting 'Jatts' under reservation is also gaining momentum. Time is not far when you will get a taste of your own stick. Be ready_.



> Dasham Pitah gave us sword and we shed our blood for him. So he called  us ‘Sons’. Guru Ravidas shed his blood for us. Hence we call him our  ‘Father’. Thus we are sons equally to both the Gurus.



_Sorry! The 'sons' of Guru are casteless and pooran Gurskihs. They are not modern leaders of society as you seem to think. Neither are they non-sikh people, whoever they are. Take you greviences elsewhere._



> So dear readers do not object to us calling our father a ‘Guru’. He is  Guru


.
_Where does he state that?_

*sorry for making it too long readers!*


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## harmanpreet singh (Feb 28, 2010)

hi Bheemsen ji ,




> 2. Undoubtedly and unquestionably, the GGS is greater than all Sikhs. For a moment, we agree it refers to all non-Sikh Saints as Bhagat. BUT where does it say that these Saints be called Bhagat by ordinary Sikhs. How can you equate yourself with the GGS in calling them Bhagat? If the GGS call them Bhagat, are you too the GGS or equal to the GGS that you are calling them Bhagat! If my father called my Chacha as “Ramu”, does it mean, I too can call him ‘Ramu’?



*u r making non issue  an issue .it seems  all politics 

by your  post  it seems that as  BHAGAT is an insult  and  BHAGAT is inferior to GURU ,  

SGGS  " sab ko tere vas agam agochara  , tu BHAGTAN KEY VAS  ,BHAGTAN TAAN TERA " 

it means " O INFINITE ,YOU CONTROL EVEYTHING , BUT YOU ARE  CONTROLED BY  YOUR BHAGATS  " * 

tell me  how calling  Someone BHAGAT is insult ????


Bhagat Ravidass  ji bani is as respected AND as dear to Sikhz  as Words  of Guru Nanak .



FOR YOU PPLS  WHO ARE  SEPERATING  RAVIDASS JI S BANI FROM  SGGS and playing politics  , I ONLY  SAY  ITS  YOUR *BAD LUCK  *


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## spnadmin (Feb 28, 2010)

harmanpreet singh ji

First please do not use bold fonts as it seems as if you are shouting. And the use of text-message English is very difficult to understand.

Now -- I absolutely agree with you! And I thank you because you put my thoughts into words in a straightforward way. :happykaur:I have not been able to do that myself all day.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 28, 2010)

Ok Bhimsen,

1)Until you acknowledge a basic fact, that being that not all Bani of the Bhaghats was used in the Guru Granth Sahib (much of it was deliberately left out), we cannot move on.

Because if you acknowledge that you will see why your other premises are wrong.

2) Also tell me whether I should accept Sheikh Farid as my Guru?




BTW to the forum generally, there is evidence that Maharaja was from the Sansi caste, but quite frankly they have nothing to do with leather workers. Read the following links:



"Two, Ranjit Singh who seemingly got “total ascendancy” in Punjab was not a Jat but a Sansi...", Sangat Singh, MCLEOD AND FENECH AS SCHOLARS ON SIKHISM AND MARTYRDOM, Presented in International sikh conferences 2000 , Global Sikh Studies.net >> Home Page
Sir Lepel Griffin, Punjab Chiefs, Vol. 1, p 219"...and from Sansi the Sindhanwalias and the Sansis have a common descent. The Sansis were the theivish and degraded tribe [sic] and the house of Sindhanwalia naturally feeling ashamed of its Sansi name invented a romantic story to account for it. But the relationship between the nobles and the beggars, does not seem the less certain and if history of Maharaja Ranjit Singh is attentively considered it will appear that much his policy and many of his actions had the true Sansi complexion"
The Sansis of Punjab; a Gypsy and De-notified Tribe of Rajput Origin, Maharaja Ranjit Singh- The Most Glorious Sansi, pp 13,  By Sher Singh, 1926-, Published by , 1965, Original from the University of Michigan<ref>Tribalism in India, pp 160, By Kamaladevi Chattopadhyaya, Edition: illustrated, Published by Vikas, 1978, Original from the University of Michigan</ref>
Sociological Bulletin,pp 97, By Indian Sociological Society, Published by Indian Sociological Society., 1952<ref>Indian Librarian edited by Sant Ram Bhatia,pp 220, Published by , 1964Item notes: v.19-21 1964-67, Original from the University of Michigan</ref>
The Sikhs in History, pp 92, By Sangat Singh, Edition: 2, Published by S. Singh, 1995, Original from the University of Michigan
Some Aspects of State and Society Under Ranjit Singh, pp 5 By Fauja Singh, Published by Master Publishers, 1981, Original from the University of Michigan
But his caste does not really matter as he was a Sikh, first and foremost.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 1, 2010)

Bhagat Ravidass Ji was following the three pillars of..GURMATT.....
KIRT karnee...WAAND Chhaknna and Naam Jaapna.

So was Bahgat Kabir Ji..Bhagat Namdev Ji..Bhagat Dhann Ji..and all the rest...

When a SIKH BOWS before the SGGS..he bows down equally to ALL....ten Gurus, Bhagats, Farid Ji, Bhatts, sunder Ji, etc etc....EQUALLY !!! Humnamahs can come from any Bani...its from the SGGS..Ardass is performed before ALL in SGGS...as OUR GURU.

FOOLS can take away a "solitary brick" here and there.saying..oh this is mine..that is my bhagats......BUT the SGGS MANSION will stand as magnificent as always..because in its Foundation runs the BLOOD of Thousands of Martyrs..chief  among them Guru Arjan Ji sirtaaj shaheedaan de. The SGGS is not a "kacha perra of atta" that can be divided..its a Solid Prautha that was Baked on the Hottest Plate and the Hottest Fire that Chandu could light up..the Paratha that serves to feed millions daily in Guru Ka Langgars all over the world DAILY !! SHABAD DA LANGGAR !!


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## dalbirk (Mar 2, 2010)

Bhimsen Ji ,
It is quite clear that the so called JATTS are not at all so called HIGH CASTES as per Caste System ( Hindu ) in fact they are the so called LOW CASTE , so whom they ( jatts ) are befooling except themselves is not clear to anybody . During Singh Sabha Movement in 19th century , Giani Ditt Singh & Prof. Gurmukh Singh Ji led the strugggle which led to revival of Sikhism belonged to so called low castes . The Dera Ballan has done a great disservice to the cause of Ravidassi community by declaring a new religion for them because it ( also ) discriminates on the baisis of castes whereas Sikhism is based upon the idea of casteless society . IMHO the new religion will merge back into Hinduism within next 15 years just like Kabirpanthis because the baisis of Hinduism is also Varna ( caste ) System . The bottom line is so-called Hinduism ( Brahminism ) is a caste infested gutter from which Ravidassis cannot escape & will be submerged into it very very soon .
          Infact the so called Ravidassis were Sikhs before they came to be known as Ravidassias . Infact the 108 Sants , Babas , Charlatans who have coined this term RAVIDASSIA are misleading this strong arm of Sikhism , the so- called Ravidassis , who embraced Sikhism long before they found Bhagat Ravidass Ji , they were just led into believing ( mislead ) that Bhagat Ravidass ji was their Guru instead of Ten Sikh Gurus & Holy Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji . These 108 Sants , Babas are from the lineage of Narainu Mahant of Saka Nankana Sahib ( & other mahants ) propped up by British who went out of Business post the formation of Gurudwara Act , 1925 . There was no term as SANT before 1925 amongst Sikhs . Therefore colloborating with then British , then Congress , then RSS (BJP ) they have played this game of breaking this group away from Sikhs by spreading misinformation about Sikhism , Sikh Gurus & SGGS . Also they are earning a lot of Moolah this way apart from the patronage of various central Govt & agencies .


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