# Sikhism And Homosexuality



## Kandola (Aug 19, 2004)

Whats are your thoughts on Homosexuality and Sikhi?

It could be either way.

for Homosexuality....

1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


Against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.

your thoughts...


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## Kandola (Aug 20, 2004)

*gays and sikhi*

i dont deserve to be welcomed. i wont properly move to this forum, yet. i am still on sikhsangat.com.

we could argue being gay is ok and bad. i just want peoples opinions here. as written below...

oh and CC, try not to use the word "page", your reffering to maharaj as a "book", a direct insult. i am sure you never meant it like so. the correct term is "ang" meaning apart someone, in this case the gurus. therefore certain prayers can be found on limb.... (whatever).

id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?


1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?


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## Critical Singh (Aug 20, 2004)

Veerji, you dont have to shift bases to indulge in discussions. Welcoming a new member is a general courtesy.  So, you are welcome to the forums.



> oh and CC, try not to use the word "page", your reffering to maharaj as a "book", a direct insult. i am sure you never meant it like so. the correct term is "ang" meaning apart someone, in this case the gurus. therefore certain prayers can be found on limb.... (whatever).



Breath easy veerji, so, do you think Maharaj can be insulted this way? ang or limb ? What do we mean by 'Panna' ? Doesn't this word in gurumukhi means 'Page' ?

Do you seriously think a non-sikh would understand such a terminology. Guru Maharaj resides in Shabad and even thinking of insulting Truth residing in Gurbani this is indigestable for me. Do you think the english translations on intenet in website www.gurugranthdarpan.com, using the word page are insulting Guru Maharaj ? I dont think so.



> id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?
> 
> 1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds
> 2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?



I still dont get the whole fuss over the issue. Nothing in this world acts without a reason or purpose and what is meaning of notion 'allow homosexuality' ? I think, Sikhi has nothing to do with it. Religion has nothing to do with it. Spirituality has nothing to do with it. That is why Guru Maharaj even did not bother to mention about this phenonmenon. Please quote so that i can amend my views. Any person can be a good Sikh as you said above.. 




> against it...
> 
> 1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.
> 
> 2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?



I have no reason to believe your first point. Bible says Adam and Eve decended on this earth only around 6000 years ago and they were the first man and woman... what about the humans born before them ? This theory has no validation in Sikhi. Gurbani clearly says "Aval Allah Noor Upaaya, Kudrat kae sab bandae, Aek noor tae sabb jag upjaeyaa, ko palae ko mandae"

Let us read and understand what Anand Karaj, institutionilsed in 1909 refers to... Do these Hymns really talk about union of man and woman or union two souls... ?

Lavan: Wedding Hymns

First Lavan

Har pehlrree laav parvirtee
Karam drirraya balram jeo.
Bani Brahama Ved dharm drirro
Paap tjaya balram jeo.
Dharam drirro Harnam dhiavo
Simrat naam drirraya.
Satgur Gur poora aarodho
Sabh Kilvikh paap gavayaa.
Sehaj anand hoa vadbhagi
Mun har har mitha laiyaa.
Jan kaheh Nanak laav pehlee
Arambh kaaj rachayaa. || 1 ||

Proceeding forth into the first nuptial round.

The Lord presents before you His instruction for the daily duties of marital life:
Rather than the Vedas or Brahma,
You are to recite the hymns of the Guru,
And be constant in the performance of your duty.
Thus the errors of the past shall be washed away.
Be confirmed in righeousness and
Repeat the Lord’s Name.
The practice of the Name has been urged in the Smritis as well.
Reflect upon the True Guru, who is ever perfect.
And all your sins and misdeeds will leave you.
By the greatest good fortune the mind
And thoughts of the Lord are soothing to the mind.
Slave Nanak proclaims that in this first round.
The marriage ceremony has begun.


Second Lavan

Har doojrree laav Satgur purkh
Milaya balram jeo.
Nirbhao bhey mun hoey
Haomay meil gaviya balram jeo.
Nirmal bhao paya Har goon gaya
Har vekheh Ram hadooreh.
Har aatam Ram pasarial Suami
Sarab rihya bharpooray
Antar bahar Har Prabh eko
Mil Har jan mangal gaaeh
Jan Nanak dooji laav chlaaee
Unhudh Sabad vajaeh. || 2 ||

Comes the second nuptial round.
And the Lord has made you to meet the True Guru.
With your heart bound by the fear of the Fearless God.
All sense of pride has been washed from the mind.
Knowing the fear of God and singing His praises,
You behold His presence before you.
God, the Lord Master is the soul of the creation;
He pervades everywhere and fills all places with His Being.
Know then that there is One God, within us and without.
And His songs of rejoicing are heard in the company of His servants.
Nanak proclaims, that in this second nuptial round, the Divine Music is heard.


Third Lavan

Har teejrree laav man chao bhiya
Bairagia balram jeo
Sant jana Har mail Har paiya
Vadbhagia balram jeo
Nirmal Har paayia Hargoon gaiya
Mukh boli Har bani
Sant jina vadbhagi paaya
Har kathieh akath kahaani
Hirdai Har Har Har dhoon oopji
Har japieh mustak bhaag jeo
Jan Nanak boley tiji laaveh
Har oopjay mun bairaag jeo || 3 ||

In the third round the praises of the Lord fill my mind.
By the greatest good fortune you have come to meet the Lord God in the
company of the holy.
Singing His praises and speaking the Divine Word, the Immaculate Lord is
found.
It is by very great fortune
That the pious attain to the Lord
And tell that story which can never be told!
The music of God resounds within and we contemplate the Lord God:
For we have been blessed with a great destiny written upon our foreheads.
Slave Nanak proclaims that in this third round, the love of God has been
awakened in the heart.


Fourth Lavan

Har chaothree laav mun sehaj bhiya
Har paaiyua balram jeo.
Gurmukh milia Subhaey Har Mun
Tun mitha laaya balram jeo.
Har mitha laaya mereh Prabh bhaya
Undin Har livlaee.
Mun chindia phal paaya suami
Har Nam vaji vadhaaee.
Har prabh Thakur kaaj rachaiya
Dhun hirdey Nam vigasee.
Jan Nanak boley chaoteh laaveh
Har paaiya Prabh avnaasee. || 4 || 2 ||
In this fourth round,
The mind grasps the knowledge of the Divine,
And God is realized within.
By the Guru’s Grace, we have reached the Lord with ease;
Our bodies and our souls are filled
With the tender delight of the Beloved.
I am a sacrifice unto my Lord.
God seems sweet to me and I have become pleasing to my Master.
He fills my thoughts all night and day.
I have obtained the object of my heart’s desire - my Lord.
By praising His name I have gained the highest praise.
While the heart of the bride blooms and flowers with His Holy Name.
Slave Nanak proclaims, that in the fourth round we have found the Eternal Lord.

Post Wedding Hymn: Wiyah Hooa Mere Babla

My marriage is performed, O’ my father! By Guru’s instruction I have obtained
God.
The darkness of my ignorance is removed. The Guru has blazed the very bright
light of Divine knowledge.
The Guru given Divine knowledge is shedding lustre and the darkness is
dispelled. I have therefore found the priceless gem of God’s Name.
My malady of ego has departed and my anguish is over.
Under Guru’s instruction I myself have eaten up my self-conceit.
I have obtained God of immortal form, as my spouse. He is imperishable and so
dies or goes not. The marriage has been solemnized, O’ my father! and by
Guru’s instruction, I have found God.


Its futile to dispute over these issues... they have nothing to do with religion or spirituality... Just my understanding on this topic.
Chardi Kala


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## Kandola (Aug 20, 2004)

ah, what i meant was, i am not going to be a permananet member of sikhphilosophy as yet. maybe some day, but not yet. but a nice welcome ji.




*Breath easy veerji, so, do you think Maharaj can be insulted this way? ang or limb ? What do we mean by 'Panna' ? Doesn't this word in gurumukhi means 'Page' ?*

ang is the more politer word is all i am saying. by saying page, your reffering to maharaj as a book. in all gurdwaras you see the hukamnama followed by the word "ang", not page or panna, but ang. a limb of the guru it means.

_*Do you seriously think a non-sikh would understand such a terminology. Guru Maharaj resides in Shabad and even thinking of insulting Truth residing in Gurbani this is indigestable for me. Do you think the english translations on intenet in website www.gurugranthdarpan.com, using the word page are insulting Guru Maharaj ? I dont think so.*_

hes on a sikhi site, he is here to learn, obviously he'll know now. well saying page is wrong. put it like that. 

anyway, thanks for your input.


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## Arvind (Aug 20, 2004)

To some extent, I tend to agree with kandola ji to use actual terms. 

Here is an Example: 
I went to my daughter's day care, and one of the kids saw me and discussion was as follows:
Kid: What is this man wearing on his head?
Teacher: Thats a hat, my dear.
Kid: Oh ok. May I have one?
Me (To Kid): Sure
Me (To Kid and Teacher): This is called a turban
Teacher: This kid is too young to understand these terms. Doesnt make a difference to him.
Me: Well, I dont underestimate kids that much. They have the fastest learning curves. And they deserve to get correct information as much as possible.

I dont know, if she got the point or not, but extending the same here, I agree the need to use correct terms. BTW, how many times, one has seen a person (of christian faith) saying for holy Bible, "This is our Guru Granth Sahib ji". But I find sikhs quick enough to respond, "This is like our Bible. We call this Guru Granth Sahib ji". Do you see the difference?

IMHO, So many translations have somehow lost the essence of original source.

Regards.


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## Arvind (Aug 23, 2004)

Just an add-on: IMHO, Though we use different terms (even if literally translated), doesnt lead to insults. It is a huge task to maintain webpaedia for beginners, learners, or all other different stages. But certainly, if one has come forward to really learn something, they deserve to get the actual terms, and with simple explanations or perhaps equivalents too.

Thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 23, 2004)

Insult is when it is done on purpose. We all have different ways to express the same thing. When Jaskeerat was about 2, I used to let her sit on my lap while taking Hukum. She tore some of the pages but I did not feel she Insulted anyone or IK ONGKAAR. Little tape did the magic.

It is silly to think that different words no matter how good the intention may be, are insulting to IK ONG KAAR.

How can one insult THE SOURCE??? Impossible.

Tejwant


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## S|kH (Aug 23, 2004)

Kandola said:
			
		

> id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?
> 
> 
> 1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds
> ...


 
I have to argue with your first two points for being pro-gay..
You will also be judged by your sexuality, if there is judgement. Sex does not mean free wild-sex without protection or to face consequences. Sex is for pleasure, and also reproduction. Anything that comes too pleasurable besides hearing the Guru's shabad is against sikhi, correct? Too much sex, you will lose your correct mind-state and ability to focus on the truth. 

and for the other point, I dont understand what your saying if you say God created homosexuality. That doesn't make sense...he didnt create homosexuality. Darwinism shows that only fitness level matters for a species. If you think God created Homosexuality, the same works for guns, right? So let a person fire a gun through someone else, and say God created me to have the ability to create guns. 

The anatomy of humans clearly shows homosexuality is not something that was "created" for humans to perform. 

Gay sex can only be for pleasure, they have a 0% chance of reproduction. 
You think Sikhi would support this type of path? I think not. 

I agree with your two points presented for being against Gays. The issue of God created Man for Woman, and Adam and Eve is the same as what I described above with the anatomy of humans and their ability to reproduce. 

Your second point is also valid, and to answer the question, one must also think that there were many other things available during the Gurus times, yet our scripture states to refrain from use of such things as they change your mind-state. Sex and Lust are known to change the mind-state significantly.
I'm sure there were rapists and prostitutes (now known as Pornstars) during the Gurus time also. Gays are known to have more sexual partners because they have no fear for the consequence of pregnancy. 

*** edited for offensive intent *** 

Only my opinion, but I think Gays and Sikhi do not mix. Lust is against sikhi, I do not see how Gay Sex is anything different than lusting for another human. 
-S|kH


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## Kandola (Aug 24, 2004)

S!kh, thank you for coming back, i now await CC's response to all this. i mean, everything that is on this earth, god created. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god make it? thats the point i believe you did not understand ji.

and waheguruseeker, jaskeerat ji tore the limbs of guru ji. how would you like it if your limbs were torn off by accident?


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## Kandola (Aug 24, 2004)

hanji he was telling me he was in florida ji.


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## CaramelChocolate (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

I rarely come on here, but to settle this once and for all...

Just because someone is gay it does not mean they fancy little kids or want to touch them up. Just because someone is gay it does not mean they are more hormonal than heterosexuals.

Homosexuals are currently in need of a reform. Most homosexuals are stuck within the idea that they must be overly sexual because they think this is the only way gays can be. I am a homosexual that believes, firmly, in sex after marriage. I am not caught up in this.

Sikhism is in no way against gays. The Gurus studied many religions and homosexuality was interpreted as WRONG by most religions at the time. Guru Nanak preached what he agreed with. He agreed with the belief in one God and preached it. If he agreed that homosexuality was wrong he would have preached it also.
If you wish to support the idea of Adam and Eve then you believe that we originally came from incest.

If homosexuality is a choice, then why are homosexuals being killed for their sexuality? Would they not choose the heterosexual path where the attempted suicide rate is not 40%?

The problem with religious people is that they always assume homosexuals lack the moral code. Homosexuals are beginning to believe that they exempt from sexual morality also. Gurdwaras need to reach out to gays and promote the idea that being gay is OK and that they can believe in sex after marriage. The more gays believing in this the better. The reason why there is such a moral decline with gays in particular is the rejection from society.

I have, in the past, heard people say 'when we accept gays, they will kiss and have sex in the Gurdwara'. LOL.
Whoever thinks homosexuals are pedophiles that want to be lustful during listening to Gurbani, let them think it, their ignorance will kill them.

Procreation argument - So the only purpose of a marriage is to procreate? What about love and companionship? What about sharing something with someone you love?
Anand karaj - union of two souls - soul is GENDERLESS, since it merges with the GENDERLESS FORMLESS Waheguru.

Any more arguments do please comment.

Gays are basically a lower class/caste in modern society. Discriminate all you like, but it will get you nowhere. [Not saying anyone has discriminated, but in general].

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## S|kH (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*



			
				CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> I rarely come on here, but to settle this once and for all...
> 
> Just because someone is gay it does not mean they fancy little kids or want to touch them up. Just because someone is gay it does not mean they are more hormonal than heterosexuals.


 


> Homosexuals are currently in need of a reform. Most homosexuals are stuck within the idea that they must be overly sexual because they think this is the only way gays can be. I am a homosexual that believes, firmly, in sex after marriage. I am not caught up in this.



That is the first time I've ever heard that...nice reply though, best of luck.



> Sikhism is in no way against gays. The Gurus studied many religions and homosexuality was interpreted as WRONG by most religions at the time. Guru Nanak preached what he agreed with. He agreed with the belief in one God and preached it. If he agreed that homosexuality was wrong he would have preached it also.
> If you wish to support the idea of Adam and Eve then you believe that we originally came from incest.


Hm...Guru Nanak also preached for procreation. Also, Guru Hargobind stated many things on sexuality, and said you shoudl worry about procreating also, and not to use your wife as a mere sex toy.

The Gurus did not have to explicitly state a thing to say its bad or you should  or should not do it. 

As far as the Gurus commenting on homosexuality, they say that lust is bad.
Now, you argued previously  that no every homosexual is overly lustful as stereotypically seen. What I can reply back with is that, homosexuality is only sex for pleasure. Therefore, regardless if you do it alot, or none, you are only doing it for yourself. You have disregarded your parents wishes, procreation and numerous other factors. Even if your parents agree with your behavior now or accept it, that still does not mean that they "had" you, and wanted you to be Gay. Homosexuality is a dead end. You gain nothing from it but self-pleasure. 

Gurus DID believe in procreation, this is seen as the Gurus had kids. Gianis in Sikhism have kids, Guru Nanak also said that one sould procreate. That is why there is no "celebacy" among Sikhs. If you wish to remain, celebate, your choice. But to perform the opposite, and have sex, with 0% of reproductive rate, is something else. 



> If homosexuality is a choice, then why are homosexuals being killed for their sexuality? Would they not choose the heterosexual path where the attempted suicide rate is not 40%?


Incorrect...the same thing can be said about "Sardars" or turbanned-Sikhs. Society is all about shaving, the latest hair-cut, the best groomed man. Yet, some of us still stand out with beards and turbans as if live in the 10th century. Is it mandatory for us to do this, when we can make the other choice? To live easily, and better, and be more liked among women?

NO, it is OUR personal choice. 90% of "born-Sikhs" in America cut their hair anyway. 10% of us keep it, as our choice. 

I do not see how Gays cant make the same choice to stick out. 



> The problem with religious people is that they always assume homosexuals lack the moral code. Homosexuals are beginning to believe that they exempt from sexual morality also. Gurdwaras need to reach out to gays and promote the idea that being gay is OK and that they can believe in sex after marriage. The more gays believing in this the better. The reason why there is such a moral decline with gays in particular is the rejection from society.
> 
> I have, in the past, heard people say 'when we accept gays, they will kiss and have sex in the Gurdwara'. LOL.
> Whoever thinks homosexuals are pedophiles that want to be lustful during listening to Gurbani, let them think it, their ignorance will kill them.



lol, I'm sure none of us think that. Atleast I'd hope we wouldn't.

As far as the moral decline being a rejection from society...that is something the Gay community needs to fix. Turbanned-Sikhs are rejected from western society, but I'd say the Turbanned community is not facing a drastic moral decline. 



> Procreation argument - So the only purpose of a marriage is to procreate? What about love and companionship? What about sharing something with someone you love?
> Anand karaj - union of two souls - soul is GENDERLESS, since it merges with the GENDERLESS FORMLESS Waheguru.



Incorrect. Procreation and love and companionship are two faces of the same coin. Gays can only see one face of the coin, and that face leads to only self-pleasure and lust, which the Gurus clearly spoke against. 



> Any more arguments do please comment.
> 
> Gays are basically a lower class/caste in modern society. Discriminate all you like, but it will get you nowhere. [Not saying anyone has discriminated, but in general].
> 
> ...



Of course discrimination gets you nowhere, but if you sit idly will get you nowhere either. 


And to set the record straight, for everyone say that questions "Why did God create homosexuality" are asking the wrong question first-hand. 

God did not create homosexuality, for if it was created and its intent was to be used, than mankind would have died long ago. 
Animals show homosexual behavior because they do not have the same brain capacity as us, they can not "think". Plug-and-Chug is their view. Eventually they get it right, and hope for procreation. I would assume Humans were above that. 

Second, you can ask the question, "Why did God create drugs/razor blade/scissors"...is it for me to use, cut my hair/shave? 

God gave us "free-will" to make our own personal choices. Whom we love, how we raise our kids, whether we give into desires of lust, pleasure and other worldly goods. 

Personal choices, just like using drugs, are not always good ones. Religion usually tells us to make correct personal choices. 

Anyways, you should stop by here more often.

Few questions, if there too personal, then please dont answer:
When did you find out you were "gay" ? Did it just click to you at a certain time? Do you strongly believe its genetic?

If homosexuality is genetic, than I will fight for their equal rights. But until then, I do believe its a personal choice, and stand against that choice. 

-S|kH


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## CaramelChocolate (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

Just wrote out a huge response then lost it,       
Give me a few days then I will respond.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

The purpose of marriage is not just sex, [using someone as meat], neither is it for procreation [using each other's bodies to harvest more beings].

The purpose of marriage is for the souls to merge, then from then, go on a journey together, one soul, two bodies, to reach God, a true loving bond, and so much more.

In this dark age, the purpose of sex, for very many people is purely for excitement, pleasure and lust. This, in my opinion, is wrong.

Sex is only a small part of what marriage is all about, however, apart from procreation, sex has other purposes within a marriage - to strengthen the relationship, to share something unique with one's husband/wife that has been shared with no other person, to give pleasure to them, to temporarily merge the physical bodies as has already done with the souls [symbolic].

Sex, whether it be between two men, two women, or a man and a woman, can be fully of lust and selfishness, within a marriage or not, or, it can be the total opposite.
Sex only becomes sinful when we get attached to the selfish and lustful side of it, and we take the idea of sex out of moderation.

Homosexuality to me is genetic. I believe we must have some gene in us that determines what gender we are attracted to, be it male or female.
I am a very spiritual person with a thirst for moksha/nirvana/enlightenment, and a desire to be with God. The very reason to why I am not in a religion is due to my sexuality. Religious people often let personal prejudices get in the way of the way things really are, and use their religious scriptures to condemn others [homophobia, even racism in some cases].

Now take someone like me - a sixteen year old white homosexual who enjoys visiting Gurdwaras and Mandirs, would I really be a homosexual who is interested in God when I know the very things that I am deeply interested in often condemn me? Wouldn't I make life so much easier and just be heterosexual? OF COURSE! Not a choice at all...

Lust = only wanting to pleasure the self during sexual acts, and treating someone like meat.
Many homosexuals as well as heterosexuals practice this.

"Thank God for aids", whoever said that maybe implying that God is punishing homosexuals... Well, more heterosexuals than homosexuals have aids, just to clear up that mix. Maybe those who are promiscous get aids, and sexuality does not come into it?
By the way, aids started due to bestiality.

The way I see it, if sexuality is a choice, then so is the colour of my skin... I can go and get a sun tan to make myself look latin, but in reality I am still white, as I was born that way, it is just a temporary cover-up.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## drkhalsa (Nov 2, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

I totally agree with you that homosexuals behave this way due to something in their composition(genes) that   determines what gender they  are attracted to.
Even as health professional i had read lot about this but it was always difficult for me to completely understand it. recently when i personally interacted with some homosexuals  it really came to me as a surprise that how wrong I was . Homosexuals are not what they are due to their choice but they are born like that , they are equally moral and have distinct likes and dislikes about their partners . When i first interacted with such a person i came to know that they are so straight in their own sense as they  even  cant fancy a girl even in their csual talks they are so emotional about their partners and it all seems so normal .I used to watch a series on television Will AND Grace but never belived that what the character are doing and showing in their interactions is really true but now i believe it is true.
As per mymedical  knowledge the possible cause for this is to what kind and amount of Sex hormones a fetus is exposed while in mothers womb determines what gender they will be attracted to , this most simplest way i can explain the mechanism and if any body wants to know detail ,lot of medical literature is available .
What i think is that it has always been there in human society and as muslim religion condems it , it proves that it was present even at that time much before birth of khalsa but as our society is very hipocratic so they never manifested openly in our society(i mean indian)  but they were always there 
the only way to understand what homosexuality is to personally interact with one of them and you will find out that they are are also as staright as you are in their own sense and they can also enjoy the emotions related to sex in exactly the same way as evry other person
But the only problem which i think there is identification problem as it is difficult for any body to just say whether one is homosexual or not by just looking at person and this allows the space for confusion with other sex offenders and criminals as they may also declare themselves as homosexuals so an objective way to identify as homosexual is yet to be devised 

but the question that still remains is that is there any mention of homosexuality in our Guru Granth Sahib ?and if not then what is the reason behind that?


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 2, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*



			
				drkhalsa said:
			
		

> but the question that still remains is that is there any mention of homosexuality in our Guru Granth Sahib ?and if not then what is the reason behind that?


As we all know, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not really go into issues which raise controversy, the Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is about Gods praises, not the moral laws of Sikhism.
However, it probably is possible to take quotes from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and use them to support or go against any issue. Maybe this is wrong, since to my knowledge, the Gurus were never interested in long debates about pointless issues [meat]. Sikhism teaches devotion to God, and that ALL are capable of reaching God.

Another reason why it is not mentioned was because it was not an issue at the time, I guess the Gurus were more busy settling other issues such as meat, and so forth.

Only fools argue about eating meat - This has a universal deeper meaning about endless arguements over controversial issues. Stop the quaralling, instead of wasting your time arguing, love God, praise him.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

I would like to share the following from a book called 'Ethics and Religion':

Homosexuality
In 1998 the Anglican Church voted that homosexuality was incompatible with Biblical teaching. Over recent years debate has raged about homosexuality within the Church. One of the most insightful views on this issue is provided by Desmond Tutu, the former Archbishop of Cape Town:

_"Among baptized Christians, members together in the Body of Jesus Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave. On the contrary, there is radical equality. But there are some we spurn and shun, because we are caught up in an acknowledged ot tacit homophobia and heterosexism. We reject them, treat them as pariahs, and push them outisde the confines of our Church communities, and thereby we reverse the radical consequences if their baptism and ours. We make them doubt that they are children of God, and this must nearly be the ultimate blasphemy. We blame them for something that it is increasingly clear they can do little about. Someone has said that if this particular sexual orientation were indeed a matter of personal choice, then gay and lesbian people must be the craziest coots around to choose a way of life that exposes them to so much hostility, disrimination, loss, and suffering. To say this is akain to saying that black people voluntarily choose a complexion and race that exposes them to all the hatred, suffering and disadvantages to be found in a racist society. Such people would be stark raving mad. It is of homosexual people that we requite universal celibacy, whereas for others we teach that celibacy is a special vocation. We say that sexual orientation is a matter of indifference, but what is culpable are homosexual acts. But then we claim that sexuality is a divine gift, which used properly helps us to become more akin to God, because it is this part of our humanity that makes us more gentle and caring, more self-giving and concerned for others than we would be without that gift. Why should we want all homosexual people not to give expression to their sexuality in loving acts? Why do we not use the same criteria to judge same-sex relationships that we use to judge whether heterosexual relationships are wholesome or not? I am deeply disturbed by these inconsistencies and know that the Lord of the Church would not be where is Church is in this matter. Can we cat quickly to let the gospel imperatives prevail as we remember our baptism and their, and be thankful?"_
Desmond Tutu in_ We Were Baptised Too_​~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## S|kH (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

I've stated this before, you can not compare homosexuality to that of race color.

Now, for example, YES, homosexuals ARE subject to multiple tortures of societies.

But how are Sardars (turbanned Sikhs) any different?

Do you believe that a Khalsa does NOT get picked on in school? Does not FORFEIT his future job because of his outlook? But he does so, because he believes in a greater cause of his life. Gays can do the same. 

Now, does the Khalsa have no choice at all? He has a clear choice, he can shave, and cut his hair, and be accepted by society, and get an easier job and education. 

Look at France, the Sikhs there are giving up EDUCATION, the only way to make a living in this world for Sikhi. And they do it because of their CHOICE. 

Comparing Homosexuality to something innate such as race color is ridiculous.
Just because your subject to torture does not prove that its innate.
Sardars are subject to torture also, but its a choice we make, and overcome.
Gays can do the same, and overcome the torture for the pleasure recieved.


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

S|kh, if you cannot compare race to sexuality, then you cannot compare sardars either. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a heterosexual to know for sure whether HOMOSEXUALITY is a choice. I have backed up my arguments, and I have nothing left to say, you can either take my word or leave it.

I DID *NOT* CHOOSE TO BE HOMOSEXUAL
​At the end of the day, homosexuality would not exist if it was a choice, look at the persecution we get, the mental problems gays have, the high suicide rate. Even in the west homosexuals are not fully accepted [for example, the recent story in the news of gay man being beaten up by teens].​
Most people are a bit scared to leave their ignorance behind, but if one's faith is strong enough, then they will go against the majority to promote righteousness, equality, and respect.​
~CaramelChocolate~​The little philosopher​


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## Eclectic (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*



			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> I have to argue with your first two points for being pro-gay..
> You will also be judged by your sexuality, if there is judgement. Sex does not mean free wild-sex without protection or to face consequences. Sex is for pleasure, and also reproduction. Anything that comes too pleasurable besides hearing the Guru's shabad is against sikhi, correct? Too much sex, you will lose your correct mind-state and ability to focus on the truth.



I find this an interesting argument as with some religions, at the peak of orgasm is when the mind has not one thought. Would this not welcome any Divine revelations? Just a thought. After all, in many religions, sex is considered sacred. For one point, it would be because of the symbolism of creation. In another point it is almost like a tease between being totally in reality and being in connection with the soul. To some, it's the closest connection to experiencing the divine.



> The anatomy of humans clearly shows homosexuality is not something that was "created" for humans to  perform.



Perhaps it has beocme this way because as we have evolved, this is how we managed to appear to continue the evolutionary process of becoming fit for one's enviornment.



> Gay sex can only be for pleasure, they have a 0% chance of reproduction.
> You think Sikhi would support this type of path? I think not.



If this is true, then Sikis should not support the use of contraception?


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 20, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

Many Vaishnav influences have crept into Sikhism, sex for procreation only is one of them. Sikhism says no obsession with sex, not to abstain from it altogether [this is a form of fasting, which Sikhism is against]. Sex helps strengthen the relationship, and build trust. Sex is good within the boundries [marriage, once or twice a week I guess].

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: gays and sikhi*



			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> The anatomy of humans clearly shows homosexuality is not something that was "created" for humans to perform.


Perform...? LOL!!
Anyway, I guess you are talking about sexual acts... Well, the bodies of two men, or two women work beautifully together. If they were not anatomically compatible with each other they would stop.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

Here is my input, God created us with many sinful desires.... but we have to fight them off.. 
for example.. serial killers have a thurst for killing
many have a desires to get high/drunk
some DON'T have desires to get high or drunk but have a desire to have sex non top with any female/male they come across

same goes for homosexuals... MANY of them arn't REALLY gay IMHO.
I'll give you a blunt example since its late and i don't want to type out a essay... but just looking at the male and female genital area it doesn't take a rocket science degree to know whats suppose to happen... rather, looking at two male penises/vagina's it does not really ad up....

non the less like stated above there COULD possible be a biological medical problem.

I've talked a lesbian on a personal bases who has two children and was once a loving wife to a MAN... from what i gather she just had a fetish.. i spoke to a doctor form Russa and was told for many of the homosexuals out there its just a fetish that was trigered and beleive they are honestly gay, and the oppisite sex just won't "do it" it for them anymore


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## Platinum007 (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: gays and sikhi*



> Well, the bodies of two men, or two women work beautifully together


I'm sorry but i don't see my male body working beautiful with another male body .. God created created the female counterpart different from me for a REASON. yes, not just for sexual desires... but procreation... 



> Sikhism says no obsession with sex, not to abstain from it altogether [this is a form of fasting, which Sikhism is against]. Sex helps strengthen the relationship, and build trust. Sex is good within the boundries [marriage, once or twice a week I guess].



In my opinion if your married and have the desire to have sex and your wife also has the same desires I see NO REASONS as why SUCH desires can not be fulfilled at any level.. after all whats harm could be done?


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: gays and sikhi*



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but i don't see my male body working beautiful with another male body .. God created created the female counterpart different from me for a REASON. yes, not just for sexual desires... but procreation..[


I am not asking YOU to see if your male body works well with the body of another man, I am saying that two men or two womens bodies CAN work well together if their is love and attraction involved.
If God created two genders and hetrosexuality for a reason, then homosexuality must be here for a reason also.



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> In my opinion if your married and have the desire to have sex and your wife also has the same desires I see NO REASONS as why SUCH desires can not be fulfilled at any level.. after all whats harm could be done?


You are saying that a homosexual man can fulfill his desires with a women or a homosexual women with a man... fair enough, but lets look at it the other way round... *if* homosexuals were 99% of the population and you were a rare hetrosexual, would you be able to satify yourself sexually and romantically with a guy?



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> some DON'T have desires to get high or drunk but have a desire to have sex non top with any female/male they come across


I fail to see how promiscuity is directly linked to homosexuality alone.



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> same goes for homosexuals... MANY of them arn't REALLY gay IMHO.


Homosexual - someone who is attracted to the same gender. Gay - slang for homosexual.
Do you mean that men who have sex with men or men who have sex with women aren't gay? Well, you are right. If there is no sexual attraction to the same gender then they are not homosexual and should not claim to be. However, if they WERE claiming to be homosexual and not anymore, then they never were, they were just CONFUSED.



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> but just looking at the male and female genital area it doesn't take a rocket science degree to know whats suppose to happen... rather, looking at two male penises/vagina's it does not really ad up....


I would like to know how two consenting adults expressing themselves lovingly does not add up...



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> non the less like stated above there COULD possible be a biological medical problem.


I believe it is biological yes... but yet there is still no proof for hetrosexuality let alone homosexuality, so for all we know, heterosexuals could be in the wrong and they think they are right due to their sketchy procreation argument which really in my eyes holds no validity.



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> from what i gather she just had a fetish..


Confusion, not fetish.



			
				Platinum007 said:
			
		

> i spoke to a doctor form Russa and was told for many of the homosexuals out there its just a fetish that was trigered and beleive they are honestly gay, and the oppisite sex just won't "do it" it for them anymore


We also have a doctor here [DrKhalsa] so you may wish to ask him some questions as he has quite a different view. I say that that doctor was overly smug about his own hetrosexuality and could not accept the fact that others had different desires from him [or that he could not accept the fact that not all women had the possibility of being turned on by him, LOL!!].


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## navsimpson (Jan 20, 2005)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

To me, this is one aspect of the issue that interests me:

 What do we have in mind when we ask what the Granth or the Gurus say about homosexuality? I think that, at root, it is a question that presupposes the following:

 1) That scripture was laid down in order to guide us in our lives and to guide us to connect with the vibration of God.
 2) That deviation from that message would hinder us in that connection and, hence, is wrong.

 But, I think that Sikhism has never claimed to be the only truth. It, instead, has suggested that other religions and viewpoints are to be respected. That isn't to say that Sikhism suggests one act in whatever way one pleases. But it does suggest that God and godliness manifests itself in a number of different ways. There is also the question of the social and historical within Gurbani and Sikhism. Let's take the example of the five K's. It would seem that Guru Gobind Singh instituted these as a response to the social conditions of the time - as a way for Sikhs to stand out, be recognised and recognise each other as defenders of the poor, oppressed and less fortunate. If everyone at the time had worn turbans and kadas etc., then the Guru would have said Sikhs should remove those to be recognised. The point is that there is nothing inherent about the five k's as 'godly' - instead they are manifestations of historical circumstance that metaphorically point to godliness.

 To link back to homosexuality - if scripture is both metaphorical and historically rooted (which, I must note, doesn't mean it doesn't contain universal truths - it's just that their manifestations suit the time) then how can we look to the specifics of Gurbani to guide our lives in the 21st century. Instead, we must look to the overall message - love, tolerance, respect, hard work, tithe etc. Finally then - how is a loving relationship between two people, whether same-sex or opposite-sex, the opposite of these universal truths?

 Navneet


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## Neutral Singh (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

I read this on another resource on internet... the observations are from an independent resource but quite informative... 



> Sikhism does not accept GAY marriages, and Guru Arjun Dev has rejected them as scandalous.
> 
> It is worth mentioning that Guru Arjun Dev had rejected compositions  (for inclusion
> into Sri Guru Granth Sahib) of Madho Lal and Shah Hussain the SUFI POETS and SAINTS
> ...


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## CaramelChocolate (Feb 8, 2005)

Is there any solid scriptural proof for these arguments that Guru Arjan Dev was homophobic?


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## S|kH (Feb 8, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Is there any solid scriptural proof for these arguments that Guru Arjan Dev was homophobic?



Hm, homophobic is rather strong don't you think? Read the article again. Guru Arjan Dev ji accepted them as humans, and even stated their work was excellent. You calling him homophobic because he told them their lifestyle was scandalous, is like a drunkard who can write brilliant poetry telling Guru Nanak that he was stupid when it came to "intoxicants". 

Guru Nanak acknowledged all "sinners" as human, and even accepted their work, but he NEVER claimed there lifestyle was RIGHT or told people to FOLLOW it, does this make Guru Nanak a bad person too? Guru Nanak put down the brahmins for their method of practicing, but still acknowledged their work in other fields and regarded them as humans. 

Stating someones lifestyle is wrong does not mean you hate them as a person and/or their work in other fields. 

You'll never get me to agree that homosexuality is right, but that does not mean I will not regard you as an intelligent human being, and respect your works or study in mathematics, poetry, art, or other fields. I will treat them same, and treat you as a human, yet I will never accept homosexuality is being right or morally correct. Does that make me homophobic? Does one have to be completely willing to accept homosexuality to not be deemed homophobic? (honest question).


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## CaramelChocolate (Feb 8, 2005)

S|kH said:
			
		

> Yet I will never accept homosexuality is being right or morally correct. Does that make me homophobic? Does one have to be completely willing to accept homosexuality to not be deemed homophobic? (honest question).


Answer to both questions - yes.



			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> If homosexuality is genetic, than I will fight for their equal rights. But until then, I do believe its a personal choice, and stand against that choice.


Well what can I do to prove to you to argue that I have not chosen to be gay? Whatever I say you will deny it due to your personal slant towards homophobia. Even when science says that it is NOT a choice you will not believe it. So there is no point of me trying to convince you as you are too stuck in your ways.


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## ravisingh (Feb 8, 2005)

> You'll never get me to agree that homosexuality is right, but that does not mean I will not regard you as an intelligent human being, and respect your works or study in mathematics, poetry, art, or other fields. I will treat them same, and treat you as a human, yet I will never accept homosexuality is being right or morally correct.


 I find this to be an odd statement. You seem to be linking what you like or dislike as being the basis for whether or not something is moral or immoral. Can you please dilineate in clear terms what makes this a moral issue and why your dislike of it warrants a reason for its inlcusion among other immoral acts?

 I for one extremely dislike when someone eats something while talking on the phone. Although I still respect people and appreciate their works in mathematics ... etc. If you can't find any other reason other than that homosexuality is "icky" to you as the basis for your belief in its immorality, you are on very shaky moral ground. 

 I find that many Sikhs confuse notions brought in from other religions (ie. that homosexuality is something that God cares about, etc.) as relevant to our own faith. Sikhism does not posit an angry vengeful god that rains fire and brimstone down upon those that displease him --in Sikhism God is not to be feared but loved. Any and all moral issues are to be considered within a wider context than just I think God would be angry. Rationality and worldliness are key components of the Sikh moral system --hence the stress on worldy and honest living. 

*Aman Singh*, thank-you for providing the information you did in the above post. I have never seen it before --you have a real talent for finding such information! I for one find it highly dubitable that we can conclude that Dhan dhan Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji rejected the writings of some Sufis because of homosexuality. First, there is no evidence from that time period that indicates why particular tracts were not included in the Adi Granth and I find it incredibly arrogant of people to suggest that they know how the Guru thought/his reasons for finding not in accordance with the message of Sikhism. In fact, those that are most emphatic about this issue (I am not singling anyone out here) have as the basis for their entire argument that they know what the Gurus/God wants and provide no reasons for why this is. Second, if sexual ethics of this nature were so important to the tenets of Sikhi we wouldn't have to try to reinterpret obscure stories such as these to get our answers.


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## Neutral Singh (Feb 8, 2005)

> Aman Singh, thank-you for providing the information you did in the above post. I have never seen it before --you have a real talent for finding such information!



Dear Ravi Singh Ji, i believe and you would agree too that its very important to explore any topic in hand from each perspective or angle. When i first read this piece of article (as i already mentioned from an independent resource), i was entrigued and so shared with you all. I meant no offence to anybody.

Please continue with this fascinating discussion...

Warm Regards to everybody.


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## ravisingh (Feb 9, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Dear Ravi Singh Ji, i believe and you would agree too that its very important to explore any topic in hand from each perspective or angle. When i first read this piece of article (as i already mentioned from an independent resource), i was entrigued and so shared with you all. I meant no offence to anybody.
> 
> Please continue with this fascinating discussion...
> 
> Warm Regards to everybody.


 Aman Singh Ji,

 I appreciate and applaud your approach and efforts!  I'm sure that all would agree that you provide wonderful resources and endeavor to facilitate further discussion.  My statement was a sincere one was not meant to be taken sarcasticly.  I have a passion for discussing philosophical issues and I suppose that my style of argumentation may be taken to be hostile  --it is not.

 All the best and thank-you once again Aman Singh Ji for providing such a facilitative forum for discussion.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 9, 2005)

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das here want to say what he come accross from Nihungs


The persent day mainstream tat Khalsa radical are trying to prove that since history homesxuality or lesbainism did not exist.

This is wrong.There are mention of homosexulty in two of the triya chritatr of Dasham Granth.Even in puran there was male monkey(Perhaps a race of human) who wanted to seduce Balram borther of Krishana.

So yes in genral homesxultiy may not be liked by majority but Nihungs(www.sarbloh.info) do tolrate it in there dals.They are not gays but do not hate gays.

God is in gays and Gays indulge in act of homosexulity by will of God.Prostitute,Lesbians.Mastrbution ect. all are realty.Only hypocrate tend talk of idealism.All human can get salvation as it is in hand of God.So hating such class like gays or {censored} or any such thing is not unique to Sikhism but has come in it by elfluence of protestant church who was main culprit of christianising Panth.In fact both Brahmanical annd hypocrate evenglist are of same type.

so Das read what Kala Afghan sahib has wrote due to his thinking more like thaT of say elder generation which oppose homesexuality and he is making reference from Adi Guru Darbar or Guru Granth Sahib ji in the sense of lust attached to it.

Well lust is there which come on us by will of Akal.No one is born homesxual.It is by circumstances.If a homosexual does not want to get out if it then we must not force him.And even then by mercy of Akal he can get salvation.Nihungs at least say that and they are the true Khalsa since the time of Guru as they claim.

although there are various medicines or yogaic excersise which can reduce sex drive as done by Nirmalas and Udasis but Gurbani say that if by reducing sex drive one was to salvage then hijra(Third gender of ennoch) would have got automatic salvation.So in them it is use in speacial cases.

Anyway das has seen many of his brother who follow Kala Afghana Sahib and do talk of morality in Public ,for Dial;ogue with Islam in Public but in close door they are same Bad to others or even worse then Das.and not only that they also may talk vulger.

Guru does not like duality.At one place we expect him to be good to Muslim but at the same time we condem Islam and holy Kuran.It is like protestant thing of free will,ie Our faith is the best and rest is just garbage but it is free will of other weather to be christian or not.

Sikh Panth recoganise that any human irrespective of Faith,Race or Region or say sexual habit can get salvation as Salvation is not in Hand of Man but in the hand of God Akal.

Say a gay who is unable to come out of his habit of homosexuality yet he rembers the name of God.One day in this life or the other life God will unit him with God's self.Das is aware that at one stage homosexu ality can not be overcome at least by present medical sceince.Yoga or Ayurveda can only help if person concerned want or is willing to leave.

As a Sikh Nihungs can make him (a Gay) a Nihung but das can beg for them on there behalf that other Sikhs must not hate them and allow them to come to Sangat and for worship as they as a human need Gurmat like any other human being.

And to gays das can say even you are homosexual like many muslim in India do maaary as Muslim over here do.Else one day in your west say UK,Child born out of there hetrosexualt marrige will outnumber you and throw you out of UK making UK an Islamic republic.If Majority of UK want Islam Das will support there views.But the thing is that there are could be homosexuality may be Islamic repulics also.

It is a truth and we can not run out of it.Das is not a Gay nor an Hetrosexual even.But das still can not say that gay is anti Panth or Anti Sikhism.But may be as Kala Afghana sahib are may married but not gay so he can say that he is a good Sikh so person like him can be the same.Or he is the role model of Sikhism.

Diversity does exist in Panth.What is good for me can not be for other.And for other what is good can not be for me.

Jeeo Jant Sabh Tudh Opayee
Jit Jit Bhana {censored} Til Laye
Tera Keya Sab Kichh Hoi
Kuchh Nahi hoiu Asara Jeeyo
Tu Mera Pita Tu Hai Mera Mata
Tu Mera Bandhap Tu Mera Bhrata.

Das could not have done exact letter transfer of this Verse from Guru Granth Sahib Ji but translation does fellow.

All Creature you created
Wherever (you) wanted thereonly you engaged them
What all is happening is/what Happens is your(Doing)
Our doing does not occur(as you do) Lord
You are my father,You are my mother
You are by family you are my brother.

Das will try if get a chance to accomodate gays or others in Nirmala order also Soul that counts and body or its act may not count.

Sab Mai Jot Jot Hai Soi Tis De Chanan Sabme Chana Hoi.There is light in all,That(God) is that light,By which all are enlightened.

Das is reapeating thaat Nihung aknowledge and tolrate home sexualtiy do not hate it but does not endrose it either.Gurmat is against the lust be it homesexualiy or by Hetrosexualy.And homesexulaity may not always by by lust.Say if a young child is sodmised by elder and since then till age of thirties indulges in homosexuality thinikng it as normal then can not leave it.There is non of his fault.

Kala Afghan Sahib were refering to holy Bible and holy Kuran which oppose sex of any kind by Lust.so does Dasham Granth.This is there till 'we do',I Am or Hau(am) Mai(i) is there.Das is sorry but das refuse to consdir him judge in this matter.We just can not close our eyes like a pigeon to this truth of present time.


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## ravisingh (Mar 9, 2005)

I completely agree with you that Homosexuality has been in existance for a long time and in every society.  In fact most people forget that most of the early western philosophers, artist, great thinkers, etc. were in fact homosexual.

Very interesting Vijaydeep Singh to hear what the Nihung view on this issue would be.  I'm glad that you point out the Nihungs tolerant nature --people often don't realize this and I myself was shocked to see the extent of their tolerance in my limited dealings with them.  I for one would love to hear more about the views of this and/or similar groups any articles/resources you can provide would be most welcome.

I would lilke to point one thing in your post that I find problematic.  Current scientific evidence does suggest that homosexuality has a strong genetic basis and is not a choice that someone can be convinced to change.

*CC
*I'm sorry the article does not correctly display on my computer otherwise I would provide some sort of an outline for you.

Regards to all,

Ravi Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 10, 2005)

Gurfateh!

Das think that Kala Afghana Sahib ji are trying to prove by quotes of Guru Granth Sahib Ji that it is OK to marry and have hetroe sexuality but in the meantime when we talk of homesexuality it is related with lust.Das 's can read Gurmukhi but has difficulty to understand punjabi as he is a Bihari.

And he also talks about Ayurveda.Das is very much with heart supporting Kala Afghana Sahib but Brain has a few question.What he worte can prevent a Sikh to become Homesexual but what about oothers who are laready or want to be like that to be a Sikh.(this is his interpetation of Gurubani)

Gurbani is truth and forever.But what about this interpetaion there are a few questions:-

 If homosexultiy is a lust then what about using conraceptive?

Does a person who is impotent male or female or seterlized or casterised or Third Gender they can not have family life or Sex?

Or persom after menopause?

Wait a bit and what about a person loosing potency after accident or by force?

Then he talks about Ayurveda or old hinduism oppse mastrubution or lust it is correct.Even homeopath Dr Vidyaleankar from Gurukul Kangri also said the same.

But Allopathy or Greek or Unanai diifer a lot.

Das wants that champion purest must give five refereance from Guru Granth Sahib Ji,Which state that Ayurveda is  corrrect to oppse homeopathy(In Fact Ayur Veda was there before Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji were sent to World by Akal).And let him give Five refrenaces from Same holy Guru of us which state that Allopathy(Which was devoloped a bit more After the Avtar of Our eternal Guru Granth Sahib Ji) which has different opinion about homesexuality or mastrabution is wrong.

Das also belives in other Two Holy Scripturres.But Das is only using the style of Kala Afghana Sahib as he used to make fun of Mahpoorush of Damdami Taksal(DDT) and Akhand Kirtani Jatha(AKJ).

He is exploited and hated by Thakedars of SGPC as he is fearless and does not tolrate nonesense and if he is in SGPC then crrupt people will run away.
But AKJ or DDT may not be currpt.

Anyway by his stlye of imaginatve logic Das can precive that in old world when we use to live in jungle or still some animal live.As strong male use to dreive away weaker male to take control of harem or large gruop of female.So weaker males may have become homesexual.

Actualy there in link brother Babber Sher Ji have given Das finds him(Kala Afgana Sahib) talking like some from AKJ.

By the way when Indian Puranic or old political model of 400 charetors of female and 5 of male in Triya Charitar can not be of Guru as they are Brahmanincal then how can Kala Afghan Sahib Talk of old Indian Medicine which was also used by Brahmins ie Ayurveda.Problem here is that he is yet to come out of ghetto of Indian standard or Punajbi one.

Sikhism is for all cultures and using Indian Standard of Brahmnanism or Punajbi of Jattism are trying to contain it.

Das is sorry to write this but Das is not giving his personal views but here he is thinking as if he is a gay from west.Sikhs has to be with weak.Gays in west are hated by many old standard people.Das think that Sikhs can try to let them attain spritual uplift(This Does not means to make them Amrit Dhari) by let them learn Gurmat and come to Sangat.

Whith that let alone homesexulity they may try to leave hetrosexualtiy at one level as then only worship of Akal will be there and no worldly thing.

CC is child of 16 years.He is in wrong impression that Guru was homophobic,It is in fact some of our present day Sikhs who try to paint Guru like that as they themselves are like that.Guru had no phobia.All were welcome to Gurudwara to worship God and thus serve humans.CC might have got sprem production for lat 6 or 4 years.And he is enjoying the love of another human body.But sex drrive or human body both decay one day.

Only Name of God is eternal.Soul will reamin.And Soul is God.


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## Neutral Singh (Apr 5, 2005)

http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/legal/bill280305.htm

April 3, 2005

*Rights are rights are rights*
Members of [Canadian] Parliament speak for equal marriage 

The debate over The Civil Marriage Act (Bill C-38) resumed in Parliament's House of Commons on March 21, after a month-long break. There were two days of debate before parliamentary resess. Parliament will show its will on April 12 when it is expected to vote against a Conservative Party amendment that would ressurrect discrimination against gays and lesbians.

Following is the speech by

Mr. Navdeep Bains (Mississauga-Brampton South, Lib.): 

"I want to take this opportunity to talk about my personal experiences with religion, specifically the Sikh faith. As a proud Canadian born in Toronto and raised in Mississauga-Brampton South, I grew up in an environment where I never fit the status quo. At a young age I decided to keep my hair and recall the moral support provided by my school teachers. I remember playing soccer and feeling mortified because I was the only one with a turban. I thought my turban was going to fall off when I 
headed the soccer ball, but the coach always went out of her way to make me feel part of the team. I remember the first time I wore my distar, also known as the turban, to high school and recall the compliments I received from my classmates. I also remember taking amrit in university, and being praised by my professors and the student body for making an outward commitment to practise my faith ...

"I remember I was in high school and Mr. Dhillon was going through much undue hardship for wearing a turban and wanting to join the RCMP. I recall that Sikhs at that time came together and looked to the charter to protect their identity and, may I add, an identity that did not conform 
to traditional norms. I also recall when the courts decided that Mr. Dhillon was allowed to wear his turban as an RCMP officer. At that moment, I was not only proud to be a Sikh but I was proud to be a Canadian, and live in a country where I was treated as an equal member of society, knowing full well that if my beliefs were ever challenged, I would have the charter to protect my rights. Therefore, based on my experiences and historical decisions by the courts, I have full faith that the charter has demonstrated time and time again the importance of protecting religious freedoms ...

"The issue today is not of civil marriage. The debate here today is not whether to change the definition of marriage. It is being changed in seven provinces and one territory. The issue is something much greater than that, the charter. I am a byproduct of the charter and live in a country where everyone is treated the same and where individual freedom is the cornerstone of our society."


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## CaramelChocolate (May 3, 2005)

S|kh said:
			
		

> If *homosexuality* is genetic, than I will fight for their equal rights.





			
				S|kh said:
			
		

> You'll never get me to agree that *homosexuality* is right


I find these statements to be quite contradictory, especially when your justification for homosexuality being forbidden in Sikhism is weak to begin with.

The story about the homosexual couple's writings not being included in the Guru Granth Sahib is FALSE. The Gurus never rejected anyone. Even the writings of barbers and butchers [depending on your view about meat] are included in Guru Granth Sahib ji.


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 3, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear CC well Das can give youn a link www.sarbloh.info

and from thier you may get other links.



So far only these Nihungs guys from your own UK do respect and accepts Gays.



And Lesbians as they se God in them also.Das knows Baba Nidder Singh Ji personally also.



You can contact him or Nihung Teja Singh Ji and they will help you a lot in this matter.(Das may not agree to them in all matters).


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## CaramelChocolate (May 3, 2005)

Sat sri akal Vijaydeep - I have seen this site before but will look at it in detail. But WHY od they have pictures of Hindu bhagwans on it?


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 4, 2005)

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Shri Akal Sahai

Well Dear Bro CC

Das has used the salutation of the same Nihungs in second line and Das may not agree to them in many regard but They do tolarate Das.So they encorage tolrance.

As far as Hindu gods are concern as per them and as per Das francly if the y exist or existed ,they are not to be worshiped as they are created by Akal to serve humans.As they serve us so they are great and so they can be respected but never be worshipped.

The reason for thier using pictures of them or Islamic or other non Sikh things is due to the fact they do recoganise other faiths as well.Unlike a few missionaries who say that we are only OK and all are wrong these guys say that others are also not wrong.So they conceptulised an all accomatdating Sikhism.

but still this is rsiky as often nonesense can creep in and accommdating nonesense is useless.So on such issues Das may disagree with them.In fact we have another person who is member of our Fourm Brother Amrit (Pal Singh Amrit) who is critical to them(Nihungs of UK) at varoius just causes.And Brother Amrit Pal Singh Ji himself has a strong Nihung connection.(www.Amritworld.com).

So it is both the way.Good and Bad.And we can use the descration by mercy of Akal that which way is to be choosen.Das here want to say that Nirmala order to which das belong make Memeber often a bit relctant to even be hetrosexual while thses Nihungs have totaly differnt mentaily viz a viz errotica and other things.But both respect each other and tolrate.


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## Lee (May 18, 2005)

The whole homsexuality and Sikhi thing is very simple from where I stand.

The Guru Granth Sahib, does not condone it.  The Guru Granth Sahib, is our Guru, so let it go.

As for Gays and choice, scientist have uncovered what they call a gay gene.
In my humble opinion then this means you have no choice to be gay or not, that is Gods choice for you.

*shrug* It might even be a karma thing, who knows.  However I have often heard that Sikhi is for the World not just for Punjabis, this does mean gay people to.

If a hetrosexual married Sikh couple are too old now to have children but still enjoy sex, does this mean that they are doing wrong in Guru's eyes?

Yes Sikhi is all about getting rid of the 5 theives, but this can be done with Guru's help, by anybody, from any background , or any sexual persiaion. Would you think of taking this out of Gods hand?

Heh I know I wouldn't.  Remeber God is a part of and apart from Gods creation.  Then of course how can God be all and not Gay too?

Cheers,

Lee.


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## orange_slice (May 22, 2005)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I am currently a medical student and would like to re-iterate...homosexuality is not a choice, but something you're born with.  Similarly, heterosexuality is not a choice, but something you're born with.  Did anyone here every say, "Ah, now I will decide to be homosexual (or heterosexual) as of today"?  No, of course not.  Although medical science has not pinpointed an exact gene or set of genes that make people homosexual, most people in the medical community agree there is a HUGE genetic component to it.  The exception would be certain Christians, who (erroneously) believe it to be a choice.

God does not punish people for being born homosexual...that would be like God punishing us for liking the color black or enjoying a certain food.  I also don't think sex is simply for procreation (like some catholics do).  Someone brought up the point earlier that if that were the case, people who were too old to have kids would be sinning every time they had sex even if they were married.

Ok (correct me if I'm wrong), our job as Sikhs is to do these things:
1) Kirath Karna (earn an honest living)
2) Vand Chakna (share you earnings with the needy)
3) Nam Japna (meditate on the name of God)
4) Overcome the 5 vices

The real question is this: Is it possible to do those things and still be homosexual?  Can you earn an honest living and be homosexual?  Yes.  Can you share your earnings and be homosexual?  Yes.  Can you meditate on God's name and be homosexual?  Yes.  Can you overcome the 5 vices and be homosexual?  Well the tricky one is "lust."  But, homosexuals aren't really any more "lusty" than heterosexuals as a group (are they?), so they should also have the ability to control their lust.  It becomes a sin when it interferes and starts making you commit other sins (like getting prostitutes).

I will say this though...Sikh Gurduaras do not conduct gay weddings (obviously).  So, for an amritdhari Sikh to engage in homosexuality would be wrong, NOT because it is homosexual by nature, but because it is outside the bounds of marriage (one of the four taboos of Sikhism).

I will also say this.  Pope Benedict 16th is a homophobe.  

Please tear my reply up and let me know if I'm wrong.


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## CaramelChocolate (May 22, 2005)

> I will say this though...Sikh Gurdwaras do not conduct gay weddings (obviously). So, for an amritdhari Sikh to engage in homosexuality would be wrong, NOT because it is homosexual by nature, but because it is outside the bounds of marriage (one of the four taboos of Sikhism).


Well, it would be WRONG to have premarital sex and as a gay male I AGREE. I do believe in sex after marriage but the point I wish to make is this - ANY amritdhari can conduct anand karaj in front of SGGS, and in EVERY SINGLE RELIGION there will always be at least one person open minded enough to perform a gay or same-gender wedding. Who cares if they community does not accept it, the marriage is done [possibly in a house] and they are married in their own eye's and Guruji's eyes, it does not matter what anyone else says.
So if a homosexual couple can get hold of an amritdhari who is willing to perform this for them then is there a problem? I don't think so. There is nothing in SGGS to say that marriage is the union of TWO MATERIAL BODIES. It is the union of TWO GENDERLESS SOULS, any mention of man marrying women HAS TO BE symbolic [reference to the analogy that all of mankind are brides proves that all reference to gender in SGGS is PURELY SYMBOLIC]. Even in ISLAM there are HOMOSEXUAL IMAMS who would probably be FOR performing this wedding, and I would not be surprised if one has gone ahead already [probably in private, as they would receive a lot of abuse and threats for having a same gender wedding].
See: http://www.temenos.net/articles/09-06-04.shtml , http://www.ilga.info/Information/Legal_survey/europe/supporting%20files/homosexual_imam_prays_for_tolera.htm



> I will also say this. Pope Benedict 16th is a homophobe.


Tell me about it! :}--}:


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## orange_slice (May 22, 2005)

Hmmm...I guess you're right.  My dad once conducted a wedding, and although it was a heterosexual wedding, nothing would have stopped him from conducting a homosexual wedding, and it would have been just as "official" as a heterosexual one.  

I guess the next step (at least where I'm from) is to make it legal, but of course the more important thing is whether or not God recognizes your wedding, not some bigot in a suit sitting in a nice leather chair.

Anywho, have a good one.


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## CaramelChocolate (May 22, 2005)

> I guess the next step (at least where I'm from) is to make it legal, but of course the more important thing is whether or not God recognizes your wedding, not some bigot in a suit sitting in a nice leather chair.


Well, law is important due to getting the same marriage rights as heterosexuals, but to be honest if it's not legal when I'm ready to get married, nothing is going to stop me getting married, as long as we feel married and together as one then it doesn't matter what the law says.


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## anders (May 23, 2005)

Sat Sri Akal,


			
				orange_slice said:
			
		

> The exception would be certain Christians, who (erroneously) believe it to be a choice.


Not that I defend Christians any more than necessary (I left that fold a couple of years ago), but I'd like to stress the "certain" in the quote. There are openly gay ordained Lutheran priests in Sweden. AFAIK, they are generally accepted and respected. A Pentecostal pastor recently condemning homosexuality in a public sermon was brought to court.

So far, the Church of Sweden (CoS) does not perform same-gender marriages. But there is the possibility of giving a same-sex couple a blessing of the church in front of the congregation.

I think that in not too many years, the CoS will understand that, like one poster here said, marriage is a union between souls, not bodies.



> God does not punish people for being born homosexual...that would be like God punishing us for liking the color black or enjoying a certain food.  I also don't think sex is simply for procreation (like some catholics do).  Someone brought up the point earlier that if that were the case, people who were too old to have kids would be sinning every time they had sex even if they were married.


Well and truly said. I recently read that that the Catholic Cathechism condemns homologue in vitro fertilzation (i.e. when an egg is retreived from the wife, and, in a test tube is fertilized by her husband's sperm). I'd say that is a cruel view. Imagine a married couple (or, from my point of view, any different-gender couple in a stable and loving relationship) which can't preform the sexual act because of some kind of disability, or if the woman's oviducts are blocked beyond repair). The "holy" Catholic church doesn't want them to have children.

Sikhism, being a wonderfully tolerant religion, should accept the diversity of views, feelings and genetical make-ups that exist. I think it does.



> Ok (correct me if I'm wrong), our job as Sikhs is to do these things:
> 1) Kirath Karna (earn an honest living)
> 2) Vand Chakna (share you earnings with the needy)
> 3) Nam Japna (meditate on the name of God)
> 4) Overcome the 5 vices


I'm taking Religious studies at the local university. So far, I've found no religion more tolerant than Sikhism. I often quote the above statement in discussions, to show how a religion should work.

So, I strongly support same-gender marriages (whatever that might mean, legally) and acceptance of other views than my own, as long as practices don't hurt anyone (or anything).


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (May 26, 2005)

Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ke Fateh

I'm a 42 YO woman who recently converted to Sikhism.  I have been with my female partner for 12 years.  I've been involved in some very interesting debates around homosexuality and the Sikh religion in many other Sikhi websites, I've done tons of reading & research in this area (professionally I work for an epidemiology researcher, one of the best in her field).  I've read this thread with a lot of interest, and I want to sum a few things up I've found in this thread and many others.  

1.  There's nothing inherently anti-homosexual in the SGGS or in any statements or writings of the ten gurus.  In fact, there's nothing inherently anti-sexual.  

2.  Sikhism condemns lust (kaam) of course, but you shouldn't confuse lust with sexuality any more than you should confuse eating with gluttony.  The definition of "Kaam" is all over the map, but I think we agree on two thing:  Sikhs do not have sex until after marriage, and they do not cheat on their spouses.

3.  It is well-proven in a ton of literature that homosexuality is not a choice.    

4.  That we constantly talk about the SEXUALITY of homosexuals, but we never talk about DEEP LOVE between same-sex partners, and isn't that the crux of marriage?  The merging of two souls into one?  Perhaps one could argue that homosexuals can't fall in love, but my own experience would negate that argument completely.  

5.  I think we can all agree that being a couple is about far more than sex.  Committed couples take care of each other and their children (and as a side note I want to point out that plenty of same-sex couples adopt children, too, or go through a lot to have them in the usual way).  Again, I can cite so many examples in my own relationship where being a couple is far more important than "lust."  If homosexual sex was only about lust, then my partner would have left me the year I couldn't have sex because I was in far too much pain.  Instead, she took exemplary care of me.  If it was only about lust, I would have left her for someone I was very sexually attracted to,  but I did not because I loved her far too much to hurt that way.  

6.  I must say that in all the boards I have been to, there has NEVER been a Sikh, whether s/he agreed or disagreed with me, that has been impolite, called me filthy names or dehumanized me.  I think this says so much about how wonderful our religion is, how inherently tolerant it is, and how much loving the Waheguruji makes us all better people.  Pardon me my Americanism, but Sikhs ROCK.  

7.  Lastly, I think we can all agree that there is no reason that any human can't reach the True Guru.  The beauty of the revealed word in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib made me fall deeply in love with Waheguruji, and everyday I honestly believe that Waheguruji blesses me through my partner's love and her care for me.  I wish everyone to have such a loving and amazing spouse as mine.  

In particular, I want to thank Caramel Chocolate for his wisdom, words and insights.  I'd love for you to email me; it is hard to be queer, and it is hard to be a Sikh in the west, and sometimes it is even hard to be a gora among Sikhs.  I could use a friend who is in similar circumstances as me.


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## anders (May 27, 2005)

For starters, I'm an atheist, and I just can't make myself believe in any kind of rebirth/reincarnation/metempsychosis etc. If I could, I would probably be a Sikh now.





			
				Jogindar Singh Kaur said:
			
		

> (professionally I work for an epidemiology researcher, one of the best in her field)


Now that's interesting! I never before thought of epidemiology aspects on homosexuality, but there's probably vast fields there to cultivate and harvest. But, given your wisdom, you shouldn't neglect epidemiology aspects on medication to females either. You will of course know that medical research is centered on western males, largely ignoring many ethnical groups in, say, Asia, and women and children.)



> 1.  There's nothing inherently anti-homosexual in the SGGS or in any statements or writings of the ten gurus.  In fact, there's nothing inherently anti-sexual.


I haven't yet read the SGGS from cover to cover (or rather from the first byte to the last one, as I so far only own an interlinear Panjabi-English file, and my Panjabi is even worse than my practically non-existent Hindi), but that's my general opinion and expectation.



> 3.  It is well-proven in a ton of literature that homosexuality is not a choice.


I sure agree with the conclusion, but not always with the methods of research.



> 4.  That we constantly talk about the SEXUALITY of homosexuals, but we never talk about DEEP LOVE between same-sex partners, and isn't that the crux of marriage?  The merging of two souls into one?  Perhaps one could argue that homosexuals can't fall in love, but my own experience would negate that argument completely
> 
> 5.  I think we can all agree that being a couple is about far more than sex.  Committed couples take care of each other and their children (and as a side note I want to point out that plenty of same-sex couples adopt children, too, or go through a lot to have them in the usual way).


I think that it is that first sentence that makes me defend same sex relations as often as possible. I've sure have had my share of opposite-sex relations (mostly going on for several years), and have never (yet) seriously imagined other ways. But I think that I can distinguish between love and sheer sexual lust. In fact, there are women to whom I've been immensely attracted, but towards whom I never (I promise you!) had any thoughts that couldn't have been published in a Sunday school magazine in the deepest of fundy US south.


> 6.  I must say that in all the boards I have been to, there has NEVER been a Sikh, whether s/he agreed or disagreed with me, that has been impolite, called me filthy names or dehumanized me.


I'm not surprised.

And I agree with your kind words regarding CC. Considering his wisdom, compassion and general sanity,I would have thought that his age should be 117, not 17. He seems to be so much more mature than myself at 61.


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## Arvind (May 27, 2005)

Joginder ji,

Welcome to SPN forums 

Warm Regards, Arvind.


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## CaramelChocolate (May 27, 2005)

Bole so nihaal, sat sri akaal!
[Those are blessed who say, the true is timeless!]

Jogindar - welcome to the board and the very kind messages! I full agree with all seven points and I hope we have changed people's minds or made them think about the GLBT community and also it is great to have another GLBT here on the board!

Keep the fire burning...


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 4, 2005)

S|kH said:
			
		

> As I saw a sign once,
> "Praise God for AIDS."


 
Do mods realise what is being implied here! That gays deserve aids!! Please do something about this. Did not realise a Sikh would ever take a Christian approach and wish ANYTHING like that on anyone. I had always thought that God does not hate in Sikhism anyway so now I'm confused to say the least.


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## truthseeker (Jun 5, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!!

I think that many people use God as a way to get rid of something that they dont like. They say things like " Praise God for Aids" as mentioned b4. That is tootaly rediculous to thank God for such a horrible thing. God never has... and never will do something soo horrible. and plus not only homosexuals have Aids, soo i dont see why they say that. I think many peoeple are just way to close minded to the whole thing. Just think Sikhism is about equality between all of us. But how can we say thats we promote equality if we cant except homosexuals for who they are. A person is made from their personallity and who they are inside, and not from what their sexual preference is
just a moorakhs opinion

Bhull chuk maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!


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## Amerikaur (Jun 5, 2005)

Caramel Chocolate ji,

A story that really inspires me is that of our 8th Guru, young Har Krishan ji.  He ascended the gurugaddi at the age of 5 with so much love in his heart for the world.  What can a 5 year old do?  He stood up to the emporer, for one, but he spent so much of his life trying to heal the sick.

I can't picture young Guruji saying that people deserve to fall ill, nor can I envision him as one that went about qualifying people as to why they were ill.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do not see anything in his gentle spirit that leads me to that conclusion.

Remember the Khanda, the double-edged sword, and the paralells within Sikhism, such as Miri and Piri...the heavenly and the temporal.  Another pairing is Dukh and Sukh, sadness (sufferning) and happiness.  The two are never separated.  There cannot be one, without the other.  Guruji never guaranteed that any of us would live a life that would be free of suffering.

Sikhism doesn't preach hate.  Sikhism demands that we separate our ego from these such decisions.  However we are all imperfect people and we have all been brought up with imperfect parents that taught us imperfect things.  It is part of the intertwining of Miri and Piri, and the challenges of both that await us.

Please do not forget the dangers of mass prejudice before you get too confused about Sikhism, or other religions.  There are faiths within the U.S. where the ordained leaders are openly gay.  There are houses of worship that will solemnize the vows of a gay couple, and these places are greater in number in areas where gay marriages/unions are legal...and that includes Christianity.


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## Neutral Singh (Jun 6, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> *Do mods realise what is being implied here!* That gays deserve aids!! Please do something about this. Did not realise a Sikh would ever take a Christian approach and wish ANYTHING like that on anyone. I had always thought that God does not hate in Sikhism anyway so now I'm confused to say the least.


 
** Off-Topic **
Frankly, speaking no, i did not realise until the discussion unfolded subsequently. And as the comment in context seem to be offensive, please guide me to that post by dear S|kh, where such comments were made, so that we can deal with it appropriately. Thanks for your patience.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 6, 2005)

Post #*9* on this thread.


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## gaysikh_uk (Jun 7, 2005)

Caramel and others.

I have spent the past hour or so reading through the various posts on this subject, and I would like the opportunity to add my opinions.

First of all, I would commend CC for his courage in this subject. A true Sikh never wavers from his principles, and CC has shown himself to be such, even if you do not agree with what he has to say. 

Personally, I have found myself agreeing with most of what he has said on this thread. I look forward to the day when a gay Sikh marriage takes place, regardless of whether it takes place at a gurdwara or somebody's home. 

Sikhism is a strong religion, a fearless one, and gay Sikhs have to be doubly strong and fearless if they wish to be open about their sexuality in their respective communities. I have not yet reached this point, but I am open about it to everyone I know. My work colleagues, friends and members of my family are all accepting of my sexual identity just as they are of my religious one. To them the fact that I am gay, wear a dastar and am Sikh are just parts of my multi-faceted personality. To take away either of these would be remove an aspect of my identity.

One thing I would like to add to this thread is a personal belief of mine. As Sikhs, we believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation can be from one species to another and also sometimes be from one gender to another. Therefore, homosexuality may well be the remnants of one's gender identity from a previous life. 

Also, some of the people have said that sexuality is a choice. Let me tell you a short story. A very good friend of mine, an amritdhari gay sikh man, decided that he was finding life difficult being gay. He believed that he could switch his emotions off and find happiness in marriage to a woman. I disagreed with this, and our friendship ended. He then married someone that had been chosen for him by his family. I recently discovered that he had left his marriage after a year because of 'irreconcilable differences' and that he was now looking for happiness in himself as a gay man.

Imagine being in those circumstances, and imagine the roles being reversed. Imagine being a straight man being told that he has to be in a sexual relationship with another man. Imagine the disgust you would feel with yourself every day, everytime you woke up next to another man. Imagine the emotional turmoil you would go through, telling yourself that sleeping with another man was natural, that it was what everyone expected of you, that your family would abandon you if you ever told them you recolied at the idea of sharing your marital bed with another man. How would you deal with that?

In my friend's circumstances, there is also the woman that he married to consider. She must have been heartbroken to discover that her husband, the person whom she had married, the one she believed she would spend the rest of her life with, was actually gay. 

Many gay Sikhs enter into straight marriages in order to fulfil what they believe are their obligations to their families and their communities. By telling gay Sikhs that they cannot be gay and Sikh, you are not only destroying that person's life, but also those of the people around him/her. 

Thank you for your time.

Bhul chuk maaf karni ji.


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 8, 2005)

SSA

Believe the Guruji says that everyone should lead a homely life, be married, work....and....have CHILDREN! now how is that possible for a gay couple to naturally have children? Plus a woman is a mans conscience!


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 8, 2005)

warriors_of_truth, please read the WHOLE discussion before responding. I find your response to be very ignorant and unlearned.
I would like to have a quote where Guruji says everyone MUST HAVE CHILDREN. Does this apply to women who, due to GOD'S HUKAM cannot have children? It is also GOD'S HUKAM that gays cannot have children...
Please tell me where Guruji says women is a man's conscious!​


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 8, 2005)

It does state that everyone should have a family life! Now what does a family consist of? Surely children make a family, if a woman can not have children then that is gods hukam but im sure if she does kirpaa and seva then that hukam can be changed!

Secondly it was Guru HarGobind Rai who stated that a woman is a mans conscience!!!

Thankyou, I am not ignorant I just have a different opinion!


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 8, 2005)

AGAIN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIMS, WITHOUT ANY QUOTES TO BACK THEM UP.
What if it is God's hukam for her to stay that way and no amount of seva can change it.... be realistic if seva was the cure for everything then everyone with a problem would be converting to Sikhism...!
You are ignorant... Sikhism is beautiful enough to cater for ALL situations... gay, straight, not able to conceive, disabled... Sikhism does even allow people to CHOOSE path of celibacy even if it does not promote it..


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## anders (Jun 8, 2005)

warriors_of_truth said:
			
		

> It does state that everyone should have a family life!


I, too, ask you: where is that stated?


> Now what does a family consist of?


For me, it's primarily mother, two sisters and their partners, children and grandchildren.

Do you really think that, for example, a woman can have her blocked tubes cured by doing "kirpaa and seva", or that a couple that according to all medical expertise is healthy and still can't reproduce can be helped that way? Get real!



> Secondly it was Guru HarGobind Rai who stated that a woman is a mans conscience!!!


I'd like to know where this is stated and the context before I just laugh at it.

And, for your information, since you obviously skipped all biology lessons in your life, same-sex couples are perfectly able to see to that, if they're lucky and healthy enough, they get children in the same way as other couples, and otherwise, they can and do adopt children. No more problems in creating a "family" than for everybody else.


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 8, 2005)

Right then I cant copy and paste on this, so if you peeps read the following pages of the Guru Granth Sahib 1165, 788, 1144, Bhai Gurdas bani and do a search on Guru Hargobind Rai about a mans conscience and you shall see loads about man and....WIFE! Are you lot saying that medicine is bigger than waheguru, if u want something with a pure heart and truely want it with Gods help anything is possible!

FATEH!!!!

Anders you obviously didnt go to sikhi classes! Its about being natural, letting nature take its place!

also anders its a womans choice to have her tubes blocked so im presuming shes does not want to have kids! Duh!


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## Neutral Singh (Jun 9, 2005)

*** Everybody may please behave like a matured person. Its pertinent in a good debate that we support each arguement with a solid reference to the context. Thank You ***

As my understanding of Gurbani, Waheguru/God has been described as eternal Husband/beloved and "myself" as His eternal wife, there is no mention of gender as such. As indicated by dear Warroirs_of_Truth, let us all study some of the verses in Guru Granth Sahib Ji:


Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) - 1164 -

As the hungry person loves food, and the thirsty person is obsessed with water, and as the fool is attached to his family - just so, the Lord is very dear to Naam Dayv. || 1 || Naam Dayv is in love with the Lord. He has naturally and intuitively become detached from the world. || 1 || Pause || Like the woman who falls in love with another man, and the greedy man who loves only wealth, and the sexually promiscuous man who loves women and sex, just so, Naam Dayv is in love with the Lord. || 2 || But that alone is real love, which the Lord Himself inspires; by Guru's Grace, duality is eradicated. Such love never breaks; through it, the mortal remains merged in the Lord. Naam Dayv has focused his consciousness on the True Name. || 3 || *Like the love between the child and its mother, so is my mind imbued with the Lord. Prays Naam Dayv, I am in love with the Lord. The Lord of the Universe abides within my consciousness.* || 4 || 1 || 7 ||

Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) -1165-
The blind fool abandons the wife of his own home, and has an affair with another woman. He is like the parrot, who is pleased to see the simbal tree; but in the end, he dies, stuck to it. || 1 || The home of the sinner is on fire. It keeps burning, and the fire cannot be extinguished. || 1 || Pause || He does not go to see where the Lord is being worshipped. He abandons the Lord's Path, and takes the wrong path. He forgets the Primal Lord God, and is caught in the cycle of reincarnation. He throws away the Ambrosial Nectar, and gathers poison to eat. || 2 || He is like the prostitute, who comes to dance, wearing beautiful clothes, decorated and adorned. She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her. But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. || 3 || One who has good karma recorded on his forehead, hurries to enter the Guru's Sanctuary. Says Naam Dayv, consider this: O Saints, this is the way to cross over to the other side. || 4 || 2 || 8 ||


Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) - 788
 
All have grown weary of wandering throughout the four ages, but none know the Lord's worth. The True Guru has shown me the One Lord, and my mind and body are at peace. The Gurmukh praises the Lord forever; that alone happens, which the Creator Lord does. || 7 || SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: Those who have the Fear of God, have no other fears; those who do not have the Fear of God, are very afraid. O Nanak, this mystery is revealed at the Court of the Lord. || 1 || SECOND MEHL: That which flows, mingles with that which flows; that which blows, mingles with that which blows. The living mingle with the living, and the dead mingle with the dead. O Nanak, praise the One who created the creation. || 2 || PAUREE: Those who meditate on the True Lord are true; they contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. They subdue their ego, purify their minds, and enshrine the Lord's Name within their hearts. The fools are attached to their homes, mansions and balconies. The self-willed manmukhs are caught in darkness; they do not know the One who created them. He alone understands, whom the True Lord causes to understand; what can the helpless creatures do? || 8 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: O bride, decorate yourself, after you surrender and accept your Husband Lord. Otherwise, your Husband Lord will not come to your bed, and your ornaments will be useless. O bride, your decorations will adorn you, only when your Husband Lord's Mind is pleased. Your ornaments will be acceptable and approved, only when your Husband Lord loves you. So make the Fear of God your ornaments, joy your betel nuts to chew, and love your food. Surrender your body and mind to your Husband Lord, and then, O Nanak, He will enjoy you. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: The wife takes flowers, and fragrance of betel, and decorates herself. But her Husband Lord does not come to her bed, and so these efforts are useless. || 2 || *THIRD MEHL: They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. || 3 ||* PAUREE: Without the Fear of God, there is no devotional worship, and no love for the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Meeting with the True Guru, the Fear of God wells up, and one is embellished with the Fear and the Love of God. When the body and mind are imbued with the Lord's Love, egotism and desire are conquered and subdued. The mind and body become immaculately pure and very beautiful, when one meets the Lord, the Destroyer of ego. Fear and love all belong to Him; He is the True Lord, permeating and pervading the Universe. || 9 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Waaho! Waaho! You are wonderful and great, O Lord and Master; You created the creation, and made us. You made the waters, waves, oceans, pools, plants, clouds and mountains. You Yourself stand in the midst of what You Yourself created. The selfless service of the Gurmukhs is approved; in celestial peace, they live the essence of reality. They receive the wages of their labor, begging at the Door of their Lord and Master. O Nanak, the Court of the Lord is overflowing and carefree; O my True Carefree Lord, no one returns empty - handed from Your Court. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: The teeth are like brilliant, beautiful pearls, and the eyes are like sparkling jewels. Old age is their enemy, O Nanak; when they grow old, they waste away. ||

Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) 1144 

Meditate in remembrance on the Lord, and contemplate the Truth. He alone is attached to the hem of the Lord's robe, whom the Lord Himself attaches. Asleep for countless incarnations, he now awakens. || 3 || Your devotees belong to You, and You belong to Your devotees. You Yourself inspire them to chant Your Praises. All beings and creatures are in Your Hands. Nanak's God is always with him. || 4 || 16 || 29 || BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is the Inner-knower of my heart. The Naam is so useful to me. The Lord's Name permeates each and every hair of mine. The Perfect True Guru has given me this gift. || 1 || The Jewel of the Naam is my treasure. It is inaccessible, priceless, infinite and incomparable. || 1 || Pause || The Naam is my unmoving, unchanging Lord and Master. The glory of the Naam spreads over the whole world. The Naam is my perfect master of wealth. The Naam is my independence. || 2 || The Naam is my food and love. The Naam is the objective of my mind. By the Grace of the Saints, I never forget the Naam. Repeating the Naam, the Unstruck Sound-current of the Naad resounds. || 3 || By God's Grace, I have obtained the nine treasures of the Naam. By Guru's Grace, I am tuned in to the Naam. They alone are wealthy and supreme, O Nanak, who have the treasure of the Naam. || 4 || 17 || 30 || BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: You are my Father, and You are my Mother. You are my Soul, my Breath of Life, the Giver of Peace. You are my Lord and Master; I am Your slave. Without You, I have no one at all. || 1 || Please bless me with Your Mercy, God, and give me this gift, that I may sing Your Praises, day and night. || 1 || Pause || I am Your musical instrument, and You are the Musician. I am Your beggar; please bless me with Your charity, O Great Giver. By Your Grace, I enjoy love and pleasures. You are deep within each and every heart. || 2 || By Your Grace, I chant the Name. In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, I sing Your Glorious Praises. In Your Mercy, You take away our pains. By Your Mercy, the heart-lotus blossoms forth. || 3 || I am a sacrifice to the Divine Guru. The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; His service is immaculate and pure. Be Merciful to me, O my Lord God and Master, that Nanak may continually sing Your Glorious Praises. || 4 || 18 || 31 || BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: His Regal Court is the highest of all. I humbly bow to Him, forever and ever. His place is the highest of the high. Millions of sinful residues are erased by the Name of the Lord. || 1 || In His Sanctuary, we find eternal peace. He Mercifully unites us with Himself. || 1 || Pause || His wondrous actions cannot even be described. All hearts rest their faith and hope in Him. He is manifest in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. The devotees lovingly worship and adore Him night and day. || 2 || He gives, but His treasures are never exhausted. In an instant, He establishes and disestablishes. No one can erase the Hukam of His Command. The True Lord is above the heads of kings. || 3 ||


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 9, 2005)

> also anders its a [url="http://www.sikhphilosophy.com/sikhphilosophy/search/forum/94-1.html"]womans[/url] choice to have her tubes blocked so im presuming shes does not want to have kids! Duh!


 What a mature attitude to have, just because they lack knowledge you imply they are DUMB by saying 'duh'? Very nice of you to treat people on the board with tolerance and respect.
A Sikh woman would never not want to have kids if it is the duty of a Sikh to have kids right? Her wants will not even come into the equation.
And what I meant was women who are BORN with the inability to EVER get pregnant... it is GOD'S hukam and GOD'S hukam alone...!


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 9, 2005)

im bad everyone else is good, now CC can you read the above passages? what do you think?


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## Amerikaur (Jun 9, 2005)

"Recognize God’s Light within all"
SGGS page 349


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jun 9, 2005)

"I am Your musical instrument, and You are the Musician. I am Your beggar; please bless me with Your charity, O Great Giver. *By Your Grace, I enjoy love* and pleasures. *You are deep within each and every heart.*"

Warriors_of_Truth, I must ask:  did you actually read this thread before posting?  It just seems to me that you jumped in without much understanding of the subject at all. First let me point you to this speech given by a Nigerian woman, Cesnabmihilo Dorothy Aken’Ova.  Here it is reprinted by ILGA, an international lesbian/gay rights group, but by no means is Aken'Ova talking about homosexuals specifically:

http://tinyurl.com/8e6au

If you read this, you will see how diverse families really are.  Let me also tell you this story my mother told me.  A guy I had grown up with, Todd, was extremely popular in high school. He never lacked dates, and he had many girlfriends.  Years later he comes back to Barstow and he is sick with AIDS.  His mother-- his own mother!-- disowned him for being bisexual.  She never visited her son, not even when he was dying.  In her mind it was the "proper Christian" thing to do.  

Instead, he was taken care of by his brother and many friends.  Of course his brother was family, but his friends were there for him too, to help bathe him, feed him, clean his sheets.  His friends were more like family to him than his own mother was.   From 1985 to 1991 I worked at the UCLA AIDS Center, and I heard so many heartbreaking stories about sons being abandoned and disowned by their parents.  It is the basic tenet of Sikhi, it is in our Mool Mantar, that God is love, there is no hate.  But to abandon your children on their deathbeds in such a callous manner is as hateful as it gets.  How could the Christian God, also said to be of pure love, condone that?  I don't think God does.  

I am who I am, I am the way Guruji made me.  I am a woman who falls in love with women, not men.  I have been with my partner for 12 years, and you'll just have to trust me on this-- turning to Waheguruji saved my relationship.  We had a horrible,  rocky year last year, fought and cried bitterly.  It was ONLY the grace of the Guru that got me through some horrific nights, that kept me from hurting or killing myself, that healed our hearts and brought us back together.   The whole story is in another thread, but here's the contradiction-- if the True Guru wanted me to marry a man and start a family, why did Satguruji comfort me?  Why did Satguruji keep us together?  Why is it that I now feel the grace of the Guru *and* a deep love for my partner, both of which are very much shared?  Why is my relationship strong and healthy, and not torn apart in order for me to marry the "proper" gender?  

Can you answer these questions?


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## anders (Jun 10, 2005)

warriors_of_truth said:
			
		

> also anders its a womans choice to have her tubes blocked so im presuming shes does not want to have kids! Duh!


Try to understand that there are many medical problems that can make a woman infertile, like an infection blocking her tubes.

From YOUR post:


> It does state that everyone should have a family life!


Do you realize how you contradict yourself?

If we get ill, we go to a doctor to get cured. We don't just sit passive, hoping for recovery. In the same way, I think that if a woman can't conceive, she has every right to strive for getting a child, and not just passively accept her condition. I hasten to addd that this of course must be her own choice.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 10, 2005)

warriors_of_truth said:
			
		

> im bad everyone else is good, now CC can you read the above passages? what do you think?


 
I have read the passages and they support my view.


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## Amerikaur (Jun 12, 2005)

I think rather than shunning our gay brothers and sisters, we should reach out to them.  Is there any religous organization that is reaching out to gay folks and encouraging them to live by a moral compass?

If not, then how can we blame our gay people for being "immoral" when there are no moral organizations that accept them?

We are all brothers and sisters.  We must all strive for a gurmat life.  Choose marriage over dating.  Lets challenge oursleves to learn Gurbani and live by the Rehat Maryada.  Let's team up to work on taking Amrit...and then living that commitment.

I admire anyone that can follow that...regardless of who their partner is.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 13, 2005)

Amerikaur, I fully agree but here some people are asking if they should even be considered brothers and sisters which is sad I know..


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 13, 2005)

Wo wo, ive been made out as some guy who hates gays on here! This is not the case all i did was question wether it is right or not in sikhi and who am i to shun away people? Im far from being a good sikh myself, perhaps I should have read the whole thread before replying, it was only an opinion!


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 13, 2005)

If you think homosexuality is wrong then yes you are homophobic but that doesn't mean you hate gays... Fair enough you can question if it is right or wrong, but in my view it is the same as me asking if it is wrong to be white in Sikhism, but it is good to hear you are against shunning people away. NO-ONE is perfect, believe it or not someone on this thread wished a horrible disease upon gays [the comment was removed].


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 13, 2005)

Well I dont agree with wishing bad upon someone thats out of order!


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## Amerikaur (Jun 13, 2005)

Warriors of Truth ji,

I did not write my post to be directed at you, and I'm not trying to make you out as hating anyone.  I apologize if you took that as coming down on you...that was not my intent.  We are all learning here 

Over the weekend I received a solicitation from a political group that were seeking to defend against "the homosexual lobby" and "their anti-Christian beliefs" and that inspired my post.

That to me feels like someone telling me that I'm not a very good Boy Scout.  How can I be judged on my ability to be a Boy Scout if I never had the chance to become one?   (I have nothing against the Boy Scouts, I'm just using them as a paralell).

That's just my thoughts...and Warriors, absolutely no insult to you my friend!


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 14, 2005)

None taken, I was just clarifying any misunderstandings, we all cool, ameri ji!


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 14, 2005)

Warriors, what part of England are you from?


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## piara atwal (Jun 14, 2005)

i can never agree on this..this is immmral

shame on those people who indulge in it

piara singh atwal   new delhi 110017


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 14, 2005)

piara atwal said:
			
		

> i can never agree on this..this is immmral
> shame on those people who indulge in it
> piara singh atwal new delhi 110017


 
You are being ignorant
I'm sure ignorance is immoral in Sikhism
If you cannot support your ignorant claims
Then don't make any claims at all
Your ignorance
And unlearned approach
Makes me sick
You clearly haven't even read the thread

SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR IGNORANT *HATE*.


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## S|kH (Jun 14, 2005)

lol @ the random replies from people who don't even read the thread...

Caramel, just keep it cool and dont respond to people who refuse to read the thread and just wish to post a reply..

Anyways, I'll jump back in this thread later today/this week...I finally have some free time on my hands.


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 14, 2005)

Im from Bradford its in the North of England.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jun 14, 2005)

S|kh... yeah true, did get a little worked up there didn't I, lol.

Warrior... cool, I'm from London so yeah... Bradford has a lot of Pakistanis right?


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## BaljeetSingh (Jun 24, 2005)

I apologize in advance to have not read all the replies. I read the replies on the first page only. So, if any of my comments have been posted earlier by someone else, then this is purely coincidental.

Ok...my take on homosexuality is as follows:

We all learned in Physics (believe it or not, it was in 10th grade physics) that every system has a feedback effect which controls the entropy (the rate of change) of the system. Much like the speed controllers on public transport buses. Now, the population on earth is a "system"...similar to the "Weather" system. Homosexuality is nature's way to control the population on earth. It is neither bad nor good...just another way of nature to control the population growth.

Now, the origins of homosexuality (in India) date back to 11-12th century when kings used to have harems and keep a large number of wives. Now, it is very difficult (if not impossible ) for a man to have sex with hundereds of women every night....So, who used to satisfy the ladies quest for sex? They developed attraction towards each other and the Lesbianism was born. It is widely known that kings used services of hermophrodites (Hizras) to take care of the women in the harem so the ladies can not have sex with any other man. So, the homosexuality is not new to Indian culture.

If I offended anyone with my comments, I apologize.

Regards


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jun 25, 2005)

Baljeetji, welcome!  

That's an interesting take on homosexuality.  If you don't mind me jumping from "homosexuality 101" to a more "graduate" level comment, I'd like to add a few things:

Your thoughts about system feedback are one theory as to why homosexuality exists even though evolution should've made it obsolete.  Another one is a theory of sociobiologist E.O. Wilson.  His theory is that in animal kinship groups, if a heterosexual sibling has a homosexual sibling, then there is an extra person to help raise the heterosexual sibling's children.  Since at least 1/4 of the homosexual sibling's genes are present in his/her sibling's children, then they have an direct evolutionary reason to ensure the well-being of that child.  Plus, since the child has at least three adults to care intensely for him or her, then their chances of survival are stronger than a child with only two adults.  

I think the reasons are a bit more complex than that, however, since sexuality in GENERAL is a complex behavior, especially among the higher mammals.  The great apes, for instance, not only use sex for reproduction but also for social bonding and establishing group hierarchy.  My personal theory in humans is that it is comparable to eating.  There are basic biological reasons we eat and have sex, but we've developed complex rituals both good and bad around both of these acts.  Ultimately, the rational human has to decide for him or herself what is ethical, healthy behavior in both arenas.  You can and should get input from your family, culture, religion, science and society, but the individual themselves should make that decision based on what their emotional and physical needs and tastes are.  Go back and think of how that sentence would work for both dietary choices and romantic love and you'll see that there are some remarkable parallels.


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## BaljeetSingh (Jun 25, 2005)

> but we've developed complex rituals both good and bad around both of these acts



Well, what is good and what is bad is defined by people not by God...as the line from Sukhmani Sahib says...

"Jab aakar eho kach no dristeta"
"Paap punn tab kaha te hota"

Loosely translated, 

When this world had not yet appeared in any form,, who then committed sins and performed good deeds?

My take on the teachings of Guru are:
1. We have to raise ourselves above the teeny meeny details of our lives and think of God as a whole.
2. Do not get entangled with they ways we live or the rules of society. The rules of society are made by Man and not by God. 
3. What ever God has made, it is for our good only.

Regards

...and for the record, I am happily married (read heterosexual) and have two great kids


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jun 25, 2005)

I think your interpretation of being god-centered is of course correct.  I was thinking more of humans in general than Sikhs in particular.  For a dedicated Sikh, the path seems pretty clear to me-- get married, be a householder.  There have been many who claim that homosexuals can't be householders, but they're wrong.  There are MANY same-sex families, including mine-- 12 years married & in love with the same wonderful person.  Although we don't have kids, many of our same-sex coupled friends do.  We *DO* help take care of our nieces & nephews, our friends' kids (& of course our pets, but they don't count per se).  Families come in many forms.  

I have to say, I didn't approach sexuality first as a Sikh, but rather I became a Sikh because me and my mate were having serious marital problems.  Becoming a Sikh helped me through those dark times, and all I can tell you is that I know in the deepest parts of my heart that Akal helped me through that and helped me rededicate myself to my mate.  For that moment alone (talked about at length on the welcome forum here) I am and will always be loyal to the Waheguru and the 11 Gurus that brought me to him/her.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 9, 2005)

See attachment.

See attachment. For those who doubt the existence of gay asians.

See attachment. Gay animals.


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## Beena (Jul 9, 2005)

Homosexuality can happen because of "nature" or "nurture," or in other words, heredity or environment respectively. When heredity is the problem, then because of let's say in a guy, because of lesser testosterone, he can show female characteristics, place him in an environment where this will be strengthened and he could very well become gay and take on the female role. Environmentally, homosexuality can be because of, 'incarceration, abuse by the opposite sex, experimentation, etc.' Since no one really decides to be homosexual, but if some become so, that's just like a handicap, it's unfortunate. If I become handicapped, God is not going to stop loving me, so, if some become homosexual, God will not stop loving them either, infact God could actually love them more. So, I don't understand why some religions oppose homosexuality. I would draw the line for homosexuals at adopting kids because kids' rights to live in a heterosexual environment, no matter if they show the other sex characteristics, must be upheld.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 10, 2005)

Beena said:
			
		

> I would draw the line for homosexuals at adopting kids because kids' rights to live in a heterosexual environment, no matter if they show the other sex characteristics, must be upheld.


 
WHY? Why is it a child's right to live in a heterosexual environment? Are heterosexuals more loving or caring than gays?... the ONLY justification one can ever have for the view of gays not adopting kids is the fact that the kids may receive a lot of unfair abuse and discrimination in society and at school and things may be extremely hard for them. Please explain your view.


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## Beena (Jul 10, 2005)

No, heterosexual environments are not more loving than homo environments, they're probably both the same in love. The reason I wouldn't place a child under adoption, inside a homosexual environment is because of the following reasons:

1) All were conceived heterosexually
2) Naturally we are destined to be heterosexual and re-produce naturally, but environment can have a major effect upon that tendency.
3) Being placed in a homo environment can result in a loss of identity in the face of what you perceive as the norm, as children's thinking is only developing and first and foremost, they take their role models as parents or consider them the norm, but society shows otherwise.
4) We have a right to be raised in a hetero environment because that is the rule and the other only an exception. For an exception, I WILL NOT FORSAKE THE RULE!
5) And like you suggested, in other words, 'they might encounter abuse, discrimination and embarrassment.'


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 10, 2005)

Beena said:
			
		

> 2) Naturally we are destined to be heterosexual and re-produce naturally, but environment can have a major effect upon that tendency.


Why did you say homosexuality may be a result of nature [biology, science] if you believe this? This is a flawed argument. A khalsa doctor on this forum has even said homosexuality is about biology not nurture...
IF sexuality is CONDITIONED then why do we have gays in equal proportions all over the world... everyone is conditioned to be straight... if anyone's sexuality is conditioned, then it's heterosexuality.
Let me explain it...
We are all brought up to be straight [excluding the rare 0.000000000000001% in society where a parent says to a kid, "hey you maybe gay"]. It goes like this... ANY reference to relationships and it's boy meets girl, any reference to leaving home or partnership and the marriage is between a man and a women, homosexuality always takes a back seat... even the jokes and innuendos in our society are centrally heterosexual... Men and women are separate in the Gurdwara, opposites attract, ONLY a man can love a women and vice versa is implied in ALL cultural and religious traditions. Heterosexuals don't realise this, but not a day goes by where a gay person [even ones out of the closet] have to conform to some heterosexual conditioned standard. I can expand on this if you need further explanation.
Just to add, when someone realises they are not heterosexual then they realise what they have been conditioned to believe about sexuality, being in the minority of being gay their approach to their sexuality will be more open in a sense as their approach to their innate sexuality will not be defined by society... i.e. western heterosexual society dictates that a man must like white blond stick thin girls with every part of her body showing... resulting in self esteem problems for women... it is easier for gays to break free of this which is why in the gay community you see so many types of people... men who prefer overweight men etc.



			
				Beena said:
			
		

> 3) Being placed in a homo environment can result in a loss of identity in the face of what you perceive as the norm, as children's thinking is only developing and first and foremost, they take their role models as parents or consider them the norm, but society shows otherwise.


Loss of identity!!!!!!! Are you kidding! I am an incomplete person???? I do not know who I am!!! I maybe messed up inside due to IGNORANT HETEROSEXUAL OPPRESSION but I know who and what I am as a person and my sexuality has actually helped me to be a more open-minded and accepting person.... infact I am certain I would NEVER EVER be interested in religion and especially eastern traditions such as Sikhism Hinduism Jainism... my position and experiences as a gay person have helped me open my mind, rather than being an ignorant racist homophobic white thug referring to all asians as "pakis".



			
				Beena said:
			
		

> 4) We have a right to be raised in a hetero environment because that is the rule and the other only an exception. For an exception, I WILL NOT FORSAKE THE RULE!


Whose rule is it..?? We have no right to be raised in such an environment... it does not matter who is in our environment, it is HOW well they look after us...

After your previous response I was quite surprised at the ignorance of the recent post...


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## Anju (Jul 10, 2005)

I must commend CaramelChocolate. You argue your point well.  

I too believe that every human being is equal. I can not say what causes the non heterosexual state but I do think it is part of a larger plan. Perhaps even to test our own beliefs and compassion towards others different from ourseleves.

If we are judged by our actions then a sikh who is all that he/she should be but feels a deep love for another of thier gender. How can this person be less than any other with equal devotion and actions in life?

  I can not see how the lord would not bless either.
The lord's love is unconditional is it not. Even if you do not love the lord as dearly he still loves you. But if you place him 1st each and every day regardless does he not love you more for remembering him each and every day. Even those that hate him and daily remember him by calling on him are in more favor than those that do not remember him at all. correct?



 there are men/women who stay with one another in a life of a lie. Because they do not desire the other gender. 

They even produce children and pretend to be a loving family. But this is a lie. I can not see the lord blessing a union like this where the love is a sham.
 (in general there are too many of these, even one is too many.)

which of these non heterosexual relationships is pure and with honor and intrigity. I do not think its the one where they live a lie for the sake of appearing as a good upstandingsikh. 


 A LIE is a LIE regardless of how you color it.

 (please note is only my opinion)


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 25, 2005)

I would like to point out something that Guru Granth ji says. I thank NamHari Kaurji for pointing this out to me, it is a beautiful quote that nicely ties in with this issue. Guruji is showing us how homosexuals should not loose faith, and also that Sikhs should neve reject homosexuals. Well if you relate this teaching to this issue it will tie in beautifully. Once again NamHari ji, thanks for messaging me with this beautiful quote from Sukhmani sahib.
Ang 268
_Ashtapadee: _
_He obtains ten things, and puts them behind him; _
_for the sake of one thing withheld, he forfeits his faith. _
_But what if that one thing were not given, and the ten were taken away? _
_Then, what could the fool say or do?_


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 29, 2005)

I have been thinking about doing this for a while, but now I am actually going to do it.
I am going to ask GOD to give us some advice on this issue, through taking a hukamnama.
"Waheguruji, please give the sadh sangat some advice through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on the issue of homosexuality"
http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/Register.nsf/CyberHukamnama!OpenForm

The answer from Guruji is:
http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/1219.html

Let me analyse what Guruji's answer may mean.

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

The Name of the Lord is cooling and soothing.
_God's praise makes life easier [makes it easier to deal with the prejudice]_
Searching, searching the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the Holy Saints have realized this. ||1||Pause||

In the worlds of Shiva, Brahma and Indra, I wandered around, burning up with envy.
_Homosexuals should not hide who they are and be jealous or envious that they are not homosexual._
Meditating, meditating in remembrance on my Lord and Master, I became cool and calm; my pains, sorrows and doubts are gone. ||1||
_The homosexual should meditate on God if prejudice in society leads them to doubt his existence [this ties in nicely with the quote from Sukhmani sahib]_
Whoever has been saved in the past or the present, was saved through loving devotional worship of the Divine Lord.
_KEY QUOTE.... we are saved through love of Waheguru, NOT sexuality_
This is Nanak's prayer: O Dear God, please let me serve the humble Saints. ||2||52||75||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl;

O my tongue, sing the Ambrosial Praises of the Lord.

Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, listen to the Lord's Sermon, and chant God's Name. ||1||Pause||
_Always paise God and listen to this advice that Guruji is currently giving_
So gather in the jewel, the wealth of the Lord's Name; love God with your mind and body.
_Love God more than the worldly things [do not become too attached to sexuality]_
You must realize that all other wealth is false; this alone is the true purpose of life. ||1||
_The wealth of any relation is temporary [heterosexual or homosexual]_
He is the Giver of the soul, the breath of life and liberation; lovingly tune in to the One and Only Lord.

Says Nanak, I have entered His Sanctuary; He gives sustenance to all. ||2||53||76||
_He sustains ALL_
Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

I cannot do anything else.
_We cannot do anything else apart from entering God's sanctuary, some things are out of our control, meaning that homosexuals should do the best they can within their capacity_
I have taken this Support, meeting the Saints; I have entered the Sanctuary of the One Lord of the World. ||1||Pause||

The five wicked enemies are within this body; they lead the mortal to practice evil and corruption.
I guess this refers to the five vices... so whatever the person's orientation or preferences, they shoudl try to fight them [applies to heterosexual and homosexual] and keep them as little as possible
He has infinite hope, but his days are numbered, and old age is sapping his strength. ||1||

He is the Help of the helpless, the Merciful Lord, the Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of all pains and fears.
_It may hurt to be in this minority but God is here to help these people become strong and reduce their pain_
Slave Nanak longs for this blessing, that he may live, gazing upon the Feet of God. ||2||54||77||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

Without the Lord's Name, flavors are tasteless and insipid.
_Just because one is homosexual they should not stop praising God and if they do loose faith their sexuality will become pure vice [along with heterosexuality]_
Sing the Sweet Ambrosial Praises of the Lord's Kirtan; day and night, the Sound-current of the Naad will resonate and resound. ||1||Pause||

Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, total peace and bliss are obtained, and all sorrows are taken away.

The profit of the Lord, Har, Har, is found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; so load it and bring it on home. ||1||
_Keep the company of the devotees of God and not those in the homosexual community who live a life of lust alone, find other spiritual homosexuals_
He is the Highest of all, the Highest of the high; His celestial ecomony has no limit.

Nanak cannot even express His Glorious Grandeur; gazing upon Him, he is wonder-struck. ||2||55||78||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

The mortal came to hear and chant the Word of the Guru's Bani.
 
But he has forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and he has become attached to other temptations. His life is totally worthless! ||1||Pause||
_Do not become too attached to your sexuality [again any sexuality] or any other vice_
O my unconscious mind, become conscious and figure it out; the Saints speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord.
_Work this out for yourself! use common sense_
So gather in your profits - worship and adore the Lord within your heart; your coming and going in reincarnation shall end. ||1||
 
Efforts, powers and clever tricks are Yours; if You bless me with them, I repeat Your Name.
_Homosexuals are being tested on their faith in God?? If a homosexual keeps his/her faith in God then they will become stronger believers than heterosexuals in the long run, as they will go through much prejudice which could essentially make them disbelieve or believe strongly_
They alone are devotees, and they alone are attached to devotional worship, O Nanak, who are pleasing to God. ||2||56||79||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

Those who deal in the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are wealthy.
_Those who devote themselves to God are rich in personality, goodness and spirituality_
So become a partner with them, and earn the wealth of the Naam. Contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||Pause||
_A homosexual should settle with someone who is devoted to God and spiritual like them._


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## ripdrool (Aug 16, 2005)

Interesting topic.  From the christian p.o.v. homosextuality is looked down upon.  It's looked upon as a sin and you should try to keep from doing all sin no matter how you feel about it.  Of course you may be weak at times and still sin but you keep trying your best and continue on through life.  I have friends who are gay and say they are christians but they condone the gay lifestyle.  This I can't aggree with because like any sin you shouldn't condone it no matter what it is.  Isn't our life here on earth just a means to test our faith and resolve?  Isn't our glory found in our reward in being with God?  There have been studies that show murderers have a certain gene patern but you can't condone that action.  If everyone was born homosexual then the human race would die out and this doesn't really fit into God's nature.  I believe it's a matter of overpowering your deepest lusts and desires  that make you a powerful spirit.  I have a problem with addiction and I fight everyday to overcome it.  I would never condone that addiction or aggree with someone who condones that addiction..


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## CaramelChocolate (Aug 16, 2005)

ripdrool - If everyone was born the same the human race WOULD essentially die out... using the arguement "IF WE WERE ALL BORN GAAAAAAAAAY WE'D DIE" doesn't wash with me AT ALL. God created us and within that he created DIVERSITY.  Example, if we were all MEN then we would die, does that mean its WRONG to be a man? Nope... everything has it's purpose, EVERYTHING. In Sikhism everything is Waheguru's hukam. Murder, lust etc. etc.... but in the case of homosexuality you have to understand that we are not "condoning the sin of homosexuality in Sikhism", because it has not been written in any Sikh scripture that homosexuality is a sin!... Don't be silly, God is not going to make everyone gay. The amount of gay people have stayed the same amount for centuries, and yet the world is OVER-POPULATED!... furthermore... if all gays all over actually were accepted and settled down with a gay partner the world would not stop turning.

BY THE WAY - The bible is teleological in it's morals so there can NEVER be one clear cut answer "he who has loved has fulfilled the law"... even if you agree that homosexuality is outlawed this has been challenged and I will give you one example:
"homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God" - the context that this was written in was that of, at the time, it was common for all married men to have a young slave/servant boy as a sexual plaything on the side... THAT'S what it refers to.
ANOTHER SIDE NOTE... apparently this sort of thing goes on in Islamic households today in Pakistan!!


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## Sikh N Sleek (Aug 22, 2005)

SSA,

The way I see it is that homosexuality is in nature and is and has been part of humanity since the year dot. But for any religion or race or group ,etc it is dangerous to promote or accept as per norm, becos then that group will be in danger of becoming wiped of the face of the earth because they have so many people who have no desire to procreate with opposite sex to continue the survival of the group.

As a Sikh I accept if someone is gay or wotever as a human and part of the human family but as a religious group it becomes dangerous to allow this deviant sexuality become the norm so that the survival of the group (in our case our Sikh community) becomes threatened with low birth rates.

Already we can see Islam on the rise in Europe as a counter to the acceptance of homosexuality lifestyle and partnerships has become common place. This in effect has caused low birth rates amoung the indignious populations of various european countries and high divorce rates while Islam opening promoting high birth rates is making head ways. And as everyone knows, strengten is in numbers and majority rules.

So with Islam on the rise, which is the most extreme of the abrahmic faiths and believes homosexuals should be killled. You can see what the future of Eurpore and the rest of the world will look like.


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Sep 8, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, waheguruji ke Fateh!

SnS ji, you are confusing correlation and causation. Just because native Europeans have a low birthrate this does NOT indicate that they are "turning" homosexual. That would be a ridiculous argument. In fact, it would be far more accurate to state that the low birthrate is due to women being far more accepted in economic society, and therefore having fewer or no children in order to balance family and career. Yet no one is saying that we should discourage women the same way as you would homosexuals. 

The truth is that one IS born that way. There is far more evidence that this is the case than "bad" parenting or some kind of (sub)conscious decision. 

All the SGGS asks is that you be a householder, monogamous, and combat the 5 evils. Homosexuals can create strong partnerships and families, we can certainly be monogamous, and we can certainly have long-term relationships that focus on love and not lust. This, in fact, is one of the reasons I appreciate Sikhi-- it distills the nature of God and our relationship to God to its most salient points. 

No one is asking anyone to "encourage" homosexuality, or "promote" it, or to declare it superior to heterosexuality. That is ridiculous even to this homosexual. What we ask is that we are given the chance to have the love of a partner in this life, and the chance to experience God as we see fit. All too often we are excluded from religions, and that, frankly, only teaches the faithful that we are somehow subhuman. The worship of God should NOT include embracing bigotry.

Seriously, I ask everyone and anyone who has read this thread to do their research first. Read about gay and lesbian people, read about our lives and what we have been through. I can guarantee that if you are not a GLBT person or if you don't know a GLBT person, then you have no idea. Learn! That is what a Sikh is, a student.

Learn all you can, meditate on God and you will understand that homosexuals are Waheguruji's children too, and Waheguruji does not ask any more or any less of us than s/he would any other human.


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## Amerikaur (Sep 21, 2005)

I've seen some gay couples in my own town adopt some very hard to place children and have done wonders to turn their lives around.  Gay couples can have very fruitful marriages and do very very precious seva by adopting children, especially the children that "no one wants" : special-needs children, older children, racial minority children.  

There are some very selfless, God-serving couples in the world, gay and straight, doing great things.


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## Admin (Sep 24, 2005)

*When Does Tolerance Stop?*


  						 		 		 		 		The story below talks about a school board's decision to ban ALL extracurricular clubs on the high school campus so that the school could avoid having to deal with a club called PRIDE, which stands for "Peers Rising in Diversity Education." The club had a homosexual agenda.

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/new...news/8931.shtml


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## vijaydeep Singh (Sep 24, 2005)

Gurfateh

Well Das recently talked to his Mahant Ji(Head Monk) of Nirmala order and as per him there must not be much fus about any person if he is homosexual or lesbian.

In fact other Nirmala in UK Brother tSingh Ji also talked with das online on this issue(we had a slender campaigne against Nihungs of UK that they are phedelphia etc practicing people).

So what othodox or Santan Sikhs have to say is more like to tolrate people with such sexuality and be given a chance to unite with God and rather God can give them a chance if they come to Panth.

Like say in Deccan Sikhs may have tilak on thier head as it is thier local customs(only for Telugus) or say in Bihar we can wear dhoti.

So preachers can think that homosexuality is local culture of west or say a few Muslims.

As as orthodox part of Gurmat is concerned we try to over come over attraction towrads sex(Kok or Rati) as this can bring ion desire or Kama which is vice.

One must know that partner be it of opposite or same sex in ntemporay and not be loved as an individaul but God should be.


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## hpluthera (Oct 27, 2005)

*Re: gays and sikhi*

Dear Confused Sikh
In many place Gurbani refer to " Akl"  good sense and use of god's gift brain.  Gurbani also preaches sanyam contol over five senses.  God has creayed bad thaughts and darkness then keep living with that.  Guru Nanak Patshah guides Sikh that through Naam you will by sahaj win a control over five "Chors". One of them is Kaam.  "Homosexuality is the mental and physical weakness a  desease looking for an alternative way to attain satiation of carnal desires without any purpose.  Sex is for procreation.  Between men it has no result but enhancement of Kaam.  So it is no where recommended nor is part of Sikhi or spirituality.  Just saying it is God made therefore accept it.  Then you were born naked live on like that.  If you get hurt or sick do not get medicine let it be god's gift.  Guru Nanak advises Sikh to Use wisdom  for every thing even when giving charity.   "Akli Daan"

You can do experiments with life using any arguments and justify whatever you do is right.  But for a Sikh truth lies with in so listen while enrossing with naam within and you will get answer your very question puts you in doubt so to find truth do not seek answer from others but with in you.  

Pray to Lord for giving you direction and right path. In Sikhi more than Knowledge faith is more important.
Naam Japo.

HPluthra



			
				Kandola said:
			
		

> i dont deserve to be welcomed. i wont properly move to this forum, yet. i am still on sikhsangat.com.
> 
> we could argue being gay is ok and bad. i just want peoples opinions here. as written below...
> 
> ...


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## hpluthera (Oct 27, 2005)

Dear Interfaith forum 
The purpose of interfaith forum is to share and exchange spirtual knowledge of all religions to learn and create an understanding by identifying the positive messages but it is definitely not a place to preach one's own religion or undrmine the other by claiming suprior status as many do on your forum.  Greatest interfaith conference was done by Guru Nanak Sahib by challenging the hyporacies of Brahmins in Benara, haridwar and Kurukhshetra, Mullahs in Mecca, Sidhs and many others.  But at no time he undermind their faith.  He pointed out them to he right direction with in their own belief systems and proved that all bogus rituals had neither any place in His faith systems nor were valid with their own faith systems bu they were misguided.  Let us be tolrent wise and creative and supportive  like Guru nanak and cary on the interfaith started by Guru nanak for all " Sabhe Ghat Raam Bole"


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## hpluthera (Nov 27, 2005)

I appreciate where you come from but let me make it right that it is the Faith of an individual which makes even the Stone an epitome of Living God and very Holy.  To some Bible might be very Holy to some only a Book and so is sri Guru Granth Sahib.  So it is the Faith within that matters in order to light faith with in others that they revere what you revere one has to do their duty with pride keeping all protocall. Those who do not know what are the contents of SGGS could not revere as much as those who know. If all Hindus know that almost 3000 times Ram Naam is mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib would not he /she bow before it and similarly if a muslim knows that many times Allahs Name comes in the Guru Granth Sahib would not he/ She do Sajda to the Guru Granth.

So dear do not be angry just keep your faith strong and try to do the Prachar of Gurbani in right way with humility and sweetness not with anger and hatred or disrespect to others.

Through this forum if every one learns to improve upon what we know the purpose of this forum will be well achieved. We put forward our view point to test how wrong or right we are so that we get it right forever.

Regards

HPLuthera
HPluthera



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> To some extent, I tend to agree with kandola ji to use actual terms.
> 
> Here is an Example:
> I went to my daughter's day care, and one of the kids saw me and discussion was as follows:
> ...


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## hpluthera (Nov 27, 2005)

Two points one is tolerating an Homosexual second about right or wrong.

Let me clear one thing there is nothing orthodox in Skhi orthodoxy is a cultural thing so do one as an Homosexual seeking acceptance in the society is different that in house of Nanak.

As a Skh I have no problem what you do in your mind "Panj Chor" are hidden. "Kaam Karodh Lobh Moh Ahenkar" and Gurbani directs us to Naam to keep them in control to reach Him.  

Homosexulaity is not a culture but a unleashed carnal desire with nothing but Kaam (one of the Chors of mind) in mind  do not malign the beautiful word "Culture".  "Sharam Dharam Doveny chap khalote Koor Reha Pradhan ve Lalo".  Homosexulaity is "Koor".  


But as soon as you do not have control on your five chors they will comit a crime and hurt some one or you and interfere in your attaining Naam awastha. So "man Jite Jag Jeet" stop discussing it try Naam to control it. It is stupidity to reveal your wound to scare others it is wisdom to repair them. Homosexuality is Kaam unbriddled and damaging for everyone around you so you should take refuge in Naam to briddle it and Balance your mind and become sahaj.
Gurbani recommends sahaj Marg of a Householder. Gurbani says" Parmesar Dita Bana........Anand Kare Nar Nari...." Shabad.

Any one sometime is responsible to tarnish the image of whole community.  So if Nihung had one such evil person amongst them then the beans will spill on the community therefore all minority and particularly who carry otherwise good image have to be more careful.,  each one of use are not an individual but Ambassadors for our Family and Community first.  So anyone before doing anything wron as a Sikh should not forget that.

We should also not hide or defend those who are guilty and try to get protection under the umbrellar of Temples/ or Religious Institutions.

If still you have not got it than only prayer by some sangat can grant you sumat.
regards
HP Luthera





			
				vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> Well Das recently talked to his Mahant Ji(Head Monk) of Nirmala order and as per him there must not be much fus about any person if he is homosexual or lesbian.
> 
> ...


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 28, 2005)

Gurfateh

As per meaning orthodox das is making a claim that Sanatan Sikhs are same as they were at the time of Gurus and no change has brought into them.

Rember No Change lie in orthodox church.This just to bring in the mind of non Sikhs and Sikhs scholras alike we can have three distinctions.

1. orthodox like Sarbloh.info
2.Catholics like akj.org or sgpc.net
3.Protestant like sikhmarg.com

Das respect all as this is the tradition of orthodx who have tolrance to all.

Coming to homosexuality. Pleasue doing by man and female wrong person can misinterpert that they may not be husband and wife while what corerect here could be whole poputaliton irrestpective of sex does be in pleause by mercy of Guru/God.

Verse is Anand Karo Mil Sunder Nari ie do pleause after meeting beutifull wife.

Lastly das wants to say that sexultiy in genral even with wife is dichoraged if it berings in lust of Kama and not just by Homosexuals.

If we hate someone not like us we may not be able to make him/her like us. and das is not homosexual.

As per Gurmat evil deeds are by will of Akal and by will of Akal does a person becomes homosexual(evey thing under order and nothing ouot of order say Nanak if understand order(Will or Hukum) no one will say I am.

So Gurmat is way to surnder to Akal and let it happen knwingly that Akal does and if we ourself try to get out of five wise then as per Sukhmani Sahib it is said that till it is said that I do then again and again getting in womb(rebirth).

Das anyway did like your views and they are good for Punajbi communites who are Sikhs but when as a preacher we go to alien culture and this is found we can not just oppsoe it but try to sort it amicbly.(Das wants to tell that Nirmalas are preachers made by Guru himself and many of them do not consider Raagmala or Dasham Granth as per Gurbani but they not offend others).


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Nov 29, 2005)

hpluthera-- 

Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ke Fateh!

Welcome.  Please read this thread from the beginning.  There are many voices here who might make you re-think many of your statements.


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## hpluthera (Nov 29, 2005)

Dear Vijayadeep

Your text has many mistakes and hard to understand so in future edit please.
Sex is one of the hunger.  If you are hungry and have no choice you satiate your hunger eating the worst food similarly if you are thirsty to the point of death you lose mind and for survival you can drink the dirtiest water.  These two things are essential for survival but satiation of sexual hunger is not life threatening but those who do not practice control by mind  using good sense and motivation go for rape peadafile or many other things bestiality, masturbation ( being least injurious to others) and homosexuality etc.  Homosexuality is mind motivation a desease that is why they say be sympathetic to them.  It is a Pscho Sexual disorder.  People lack skill opurtunity abused etc or learn wrong sexual habits and indulge in it.  You teach a child wrong language, wrong food habits he will grow with it.  Desease must be cured and Naam Bani is the best at least it will give the mind a little bliss from these hungers and the other thing is deprivation of sex that is why in Sikhi Grahsth Ashram is the supreme. Live like a householder.  Do not create homo couples that much sense even animals have you are humans.  Misguided need lot of attention and guidance not total acceptance and encouragement.  Sikhi does not change its teachings to oblige others Truth is always a truth.  So do not be selective to be accepted by the Homos whose acceptability is already in question in many areas of society.  Do not get sccumbed to it face and correct them.
HP Luthera

As per meaning orthodox das is making a claim that Sanatan Sikhs are same as they were at the time of Gurus and no change has brought into them.

Rember No Change lie in orthodox church.This just to bring in the mind of non Sikhs and Sikhs scholras alike we can have three distinctions.

1. orthodox like Sarbloh.info
2.Catholics like akj.org or sgpc.net
3.Protestant like sikhmarg.com

Das respect all as this is the tradition of orthodx who have tolrance to all.

Coming to homosexuality. Pleasue doing by man and female wrong person can misinterpert that they may not be husband and wife while what corerect here could be whole poputaliton irrestpective of sex does be in pleause by mercy of Guru/God.

Verse is Anand Karo Mil Sunder Nari ie do pleause after meeting beutifull wife.

Lastly das wants to say that sexultiy in genral even with wife is dichoraged if it berings in lust of Kama and not just by Homosexuals.

If we hate someone not like us we may not be able to make him/her like us. and das is not homosexual.

As per Gurmat evil deeds are by will of Akal and by will of Akal does a person becomes homosexual(evey thing under order and nothing ouot of order say Nanak if understand order(Will or Hukum) no one will say I am.

So Gurmat is way to surnder to Akal and let it happen knwingly that Akal does and if we ourself try to get out of five wise then as per Sukhmani Sahib it is said that till it is said that I do then again and again getting in womb(rebirth).

Das anyway did like your views and they are good for Punajbi communites who are Sikhs but when as a preacher we go to alien culture and this is found we can not just oppsoe it but try to sort it amicbly.(Das wants to tell that Nirmalas are preachers made by Guru himself and many of them do not consider Raagmala or Dasham Granth as per Gurbani but they not offend others).[/quote]


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 30, 2005)

Gurfateh

Respected Luthra Sahib,

Das only wanted to say that lust with own wife is same as lust with homosexultiy.

It is not always that one becoem homosexual by his will often in childhood due to circumstance mind develops like that especialy in western culture and we can not call it desecce or disorder.

Dasham Granth has mention of homosexuality in Triya Charitar. but it is anti to forcefull same sex rape.

Coming back to such situations das would like to know as repeated before that this means that contrception or sterlisaton for family planing is also bad perhaps.

Das anyway agrees to you that Bani has power to reform for lustfull sexulity but it is in general for homosexuals as well Hetrosexuals.

Thing das here was discussing that should we allow Homosexual to come to refuge to Bani so that thier desire for lust goes as it goes from the Hetrosexuals.

any addicton can not be remvoed at onece but in phased manner.Being orthodox we are ready to tolrate such phases and chances to reform inspite of thier being risky and can sometime go unsuccessful but we will not give up.

It is similar as we deal with idol worshipping Hindus in Nirmalas,that we allow thier idols in our Akharas and do give them a chance to go after Gurbani sometimes they become Sikh like das himself while otherwise they remain a good Hindu.

when people are saying that Anand Marrige is also brahmanical rituals then how can it allow homosexual marrige?

some Radicals have such views that Anand marrige is also Brahmincal rituals like Amrit Sanskar then how can Amrti Sanskar be allowed to homosexuals.

But there is something called Naam Daan ceromany in Nirmalas.Where we are told to sing the glory in a specail way.for that one may or may not be Sikh and that thing Homosexual as per das can have.

After long practise they can reach the stage when they can ask for Baptism.Often most of the Nirmalas are calibate or unmarried but that does not make them higher to married one.

at last Das just want to say that to not to ahte homosexuals and let them have chance to join us.On our road or Panth one loss many things like five vices and on  this road they will lose lust also.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 30, 2005)

Gurfateh
Luhtra Sahib,

As per few books or studied in some animals when they are drivan away from group say mighty male takes full control of heram or gruop of female then may weaker males turn homosexual to satisfy thier desire.

(Das does not want to let us be like animal but you gave this thing that animals are not homosexuals so das was compell to write this).

If we come out of Punjabi mentality then we can say that Khalsa does occupy the Throne of Avtar and Guru of Kaliyug at present.And we have power to make rules which Ten of our Gurus did not make but left it on us to be made via say Gurmata.

We can have this done via guidance of Guru Granth Sahib.As that book says that all is done by Akal and Puni Papi Akhan Nahi,Kar Kar Karna Likhi Laye Jaoo.

That may mean do not ask for sinner or good doer each hand's doing takes with it what is writtan or wanted by Akal.

We need to know that basic princeple of Panth is to see God in all and all deeds are acts of God.

Be it rapist or be it murderer or be it person like das.


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Nov 30, 2005)

Lutheraji:

You are completely wrong when you equate homosexuality and lust.  I could have lustful sex with anyone.  I can ONLY fall deeply in love with a person of my gender.  

Again, I ask you to please read this thread thoroughly.  Your understanding of sexuality is not a bit scientific, and promoting dehumanizing falsehoods and stereotypes is not the Sikhi way.  

In answer to Kandolaji's interesting questions, I have to say, since when did we believe in "Adam and Eve?"  That's Judeo-Christian mythology, not reality.  All scientific evidence points to humans evolving from primates, except that we've achieved the blessings of thinking and understanding the world around us much more thoroughly.  

If the question is why Akalji created homosexuality, that's unanswerable until we meet the True Guru and ask.  From an evolutionary history perspective, one of best theories out there is that it provides a survival benefit for kinship groups.  To simplify, if you have three siblings, two heterosexual and one homosexual, you potentially have six adults for the children of four adults.  In other words, the ratio of adults to children is, on average, higher in families with homosexual members than with all heterosexual members.

Also, it is not at all true that *all* societies condemn homosexuality.  It is true for those societies that follow the Abrahamic religions, and those societies that have been converted (willingly or forcibly) to either Christianity or Islam.  However, in ALL indigenous native cultures where the status of women is near or equal to men, homosexuals are either considered just another variation, or in some cases even a blessing, a sign of sacredness.   There is a concrete relationship between how women are treated in a society and how homosexuals are treated in a society.  

Sri Guru Granth Sahib clearly says to me that all humans are worthy of salvation.  I have a partner of the same sex, we have been together 13 years and I am loyal to her.  As anyone in a long-term marriage can tell you, it is not about lust, it is about partnership and growing in love together.  Whether or not Anand Karaj is open to me does not bother me; it is ultimately a meaningless ritual.  Guru Nanak says that if your heart is not in it, then ritual is empty.  I'd rather my heart be in my relationship.


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## halidarahman (Nov 30, 2005)

Jogindar Singh Kaur said:
			
		

> Lutheraji:
> 
> Thank you for your article. kuddus to you for standing up against blasphemy. One's sexual choice unfortunately has nothing to do with religious beliefs. I am straight but half of my friends are gay. Some of them are very spiritual. So I agree with you  . great article ms. kaur.


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## hpluthera (Dec 1, 2005)

Your quote below 
  "Thing das here was discussing that should we allow Homosexual to come  
to refuge to Bani so that thier desire for lust goes as it goes from the  
Hetrosexuals."

You or for that purpose any one else is onot having any owner ship for Bani of Sri Guru Granth so who are you to grant permit or denyit. Freedom of worship is fundamental in Sikhism. Seeking His blessings for right way is the Ardas. I do not know about Dassa Granth as lot of Banis are not authenticated and include writings of various writesr. I strictly stay with Sri Guru Granth Sahib no where else rest is just diversion.

Nirmlas or others if practice something must be misguided within themselves I do not beling to them nor interfere with them I believe in my Faith strongly and that is enouhg and so do I strongly favour do listen to Bani and ponder over you will get all answers better than just speaking out


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 9, 2005)

Gurfateh

this is not to be discussed here but logic by which many of the scholars try to paint Dasham Granth as Anti Gurmat can even to be used unto some verses of Guru Granth Sahib Ji to prove them in the same way.

Like wise the way Nirmalas are contrversial in the same way we can have good lots of contrversy with those scholras who are for radical Gurmat like followers of Babu Teja Singh Ji(das has respect for Panch Khalsa Dewan for some other reason anyway ie anti casteism).

Coming back to homosexuality and as das talked on this with Princepal Surjeet Singh Ji.

We so far have no provision of Anand Karaj in same sex. So homosexuals are technicaly dooooing adultray.So like a person who cuts his/her hair which is kurrahit is allowed to worship in the same way can be done with Homosexuals.

Das here used Sikh Rahit Maryada( by sgpc) to state Homosexuality as Adultary but there could be some parts of Panth who have differant codes or Maryadas and many other may have differant reading or interpetation of Rahit Maryada by sgpc also.(das here talks of ortodox or Sanatan Sikh with differnt ideaolgy which may not always consisder even adultary as wrong but order of Das do oppose adultray and talks of calibacy se sarbloh.info).

Das tenders an apology to Luthra Sahib if some wrong thing is writan and hope he will pardon das.


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## ISDhillon (Jan 8, 2006)

Satsriakal Ji,

I have read quite a bit about this issue and have also spoken to many people who are homosexual, the saddest thing about this issue is that we can all CHOOSE to reject homosexuality, however a homosexual cannot CHOOSE to reject their sexuality therefore we can possibly condemn an innocent group of people for eternity for no reason whatsoever. I have not found an ounce of evidence to support a ban on same-sex anand karaj, anand karaj is not a marriage, shaadi, viaah or wedding. We need to look at the defnition of all others  before looking at the anand karaj. A marriage is typically from a semitic backgound defined as: Gods blueprint for the continuity of his creation - this therefore suggests gender specificity. Anand karaj however is defined as: Gods blueprint for self realisation through the loving bond of a civil union. Therefore I can see no problem with same-sex unions in sikhism. The biggest defeat that dogma has faced is the evolution of society and homosexuality has defied all faiths bar sikhi as sikhi never took a position on sexuality only its over-indulgence. Which is with good merit.

Indy


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## hpluthera (Jan 9, 2006)

ISDhillon said:
			
		

> Satsriakal Ji,
> 
> I have read quite a bit about this issue and have also spoken to many people who are homosexual, the saddest thing about this issue is that we can all CHOOSE to reject homosexuality, however a homosexual cannot CHOOSE to reject their sexuality therefore we can possibly condemn an innocent group of people for eternity for no reason whatsoever. I have not found an ounce of evidence to support a ban on same-sex anand karaj, anand karaj is not a marriage, shaadi, viaah or wedding. We need to look at the defnition of all others before looking at the anand karaj. A marriage is typically from a semitic backgound defined as: Gods blueprint for the continuity of his creation - this therefore suggests gender specificity. Anand karaj however is defined as: Gods blueprint for self realisation through the loving bond of a civil union. Therefore I can see no problem with same-sex unions in sikhism. The biggest defeat that dogma has faced is the evolution of society and homosexuality has defied all faiths bar sikhi as sikhi never took a position on sexuality only its over-indulgence. Which is with good merit.
> 
> Indy




Dear Indy
  Civil Union has a place in some countires Legal Systems which has now  recoganised same sex union not marriage.  Marriage has a contract and objective  and that is for the the continuation of the generation.  In sexual relationship  of two men or two women the scope is limited to sexual pleasure.  The women has  an egg and man has semens and the purpose of marriage is procreation and birth  of a child.  Nature is perfect and exploitation of nature is caused by some due  to greed or sickness.  

  If you think overindulgence in food alcohal or other things is no good for  one's health so is overindulgence in sexual pleasures.  Food is for  energy and  maintaining good health exercise for healthy body sex for procreation.

  So what is being recoganised by homo union it is just like opening as sex  bar so you need a licence.  

  Religion is very straight on this matter and there is neither a confusion  nor a doubt.  Homo for just sexual pleasure and if any religion wishes to  recoganise it and find a space let it be.  I wonder why a Homosexual couple wish  to be religiously married when they have gone against the sanctity of all  religious beliefs except one .

  There are hermaphrodites in India who worship joint image of Shiva and  Parvati half side Man half side women and they marry by exchange of  garlands.

  Homosexuality is a demand supply issue those who missed on good  relationship at right time indulge in this.

  HP


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## ISDhillon (Jan 9, 2006)

Satsriakal Hpluthera Ji 

After reading my post and I would suggest you read all of this thoroughly I would like you to show me other than from your personal opinion how same-sex unions are not valid in Sikhism. :}--}: 

“In sexual relationship of two men or two women the scope is limited to sexual pleasure.”

This sentence disturbs me as it shows a lack of understanding, let no relationship be a sexual one let all relationships be based on love and an expression of that love be sexual affection.  I am quite horrified by the filthy twist that is put towards a homosexual relationship, these relationships are by two consensual adults who are committed to each other and put a lot into society if their conditions are not met we will have suicide, murder paedophilia all people have a place in society, creation was not handed to heterosexuals.

“Nature is perfect and exploitation of nature is caused by some due to greed or sickness.”

Another ignorant statement if I receive a response to my post along the same theme as this I will refuse to engage in debate, this is a serious issue and homosexual relationships are as natural as can be, not all people procreate and my understanding from sikhi is that a relationship is not for continuity of creation this is what we are lead to believe this is why there is so much break up in our society because we don’t focus on love, love is the only thing that will help you to push that much harder to resolve any conjugal issues that may be present in a relationship other than love a relationship just becomes a habit and when you have children you will just gain your love from them.  There is no gree and no sickness homosexuals have surpassed in every field of human endeavour including sainthood, a lot of people will know that when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he mentioned that his aim was dusht of the tyrants that refused to allow the saints to repeat the name of god this was in response to the increasing number of executions by the then mughal emperor auranzeb, one of the saints was sarmad, wake-up call to everyone sarmad was a homosexual and look what sant naranjan singh ji says about him: 

"During the time of Aurangzeb, a missionary came from Rome. He asked everyone the same two questions. "What is Patience, and what is Gratitude?" What do they mean? He would accept only an explanation that would remove all his doubts.

This missionary saw Aurangzeb and explained the aim of his visit. "You write Koran everyday. You are called the highest emperor. You have employed 1400 Muslim priests" he said. Everyone tried to explain through logic and examples, however, the missionary was not satisfied.

(Logic, arguments, and examples often lose the real essence, your vision becomes foggy. Gratitude and Patience are inter-connected. They are the two wings of spiritual life.)"

(Aurangzeb had a famous Saint by the name of Sarmud detained in the dungeon.)

"Now, this missionary wanted to see Sarmud also. So, he was taken into the dungeon to meet this Saint. He found this Saint in chains, but, when the missionary had his Darshan (saw the spiritual Glory) he immediately felt Peace. He bowed and presented his question, 'What is the meaning of Patience, and Gratitude?" This Sadhu said, "Come back tomorrow. I am going to be executed soon. I want to take a bath. Please bring me water and a piece of cloth for my last bath tomorrow. After that bath, I will demonstrate the practice the virtue of Patience and Gratitude. I will show it to you. Be sure to note down what you see.'

Next day at dawn, this missionary presented the Saint with water and a piece of cloth. This Saint stood up, and took a bath while in the chains. (Listen carefully now. Patience and Gratitude, is being explained.) He wrapped the cloth around his waist and closed his eyes in prayer. He asked this missionary to stand up, and to shut his eyes, also.

(People with a Spiritual Life impart their lessons by actually living them.) Sarmud put his spiritual hand on this missionary's head. Now the missionary started seeing what was previously invisible. He saw that there are countless spirits on one side ready to destroy the red fort with a magnificently adorned elephant waiting outside, ready to mount. They are all resting on Sarmud's palm, but he is gesturing to stop the destruction with the finger of his other hand.

Dhann (wonderfully glorious) is the Sadhu Sarmud! He is going to be executed. But he is telling these spirits to stop, do not destroy anyone! The Sadhu said, 'Look, Khuda (God) has made me so powerful and has given me anything I wanted. All my thoughts are soaked with gratitude. These chains on this body cannot bother me.'

'Second, and last demonstration of Patience will be tomorrow. You see, the executioner is sharpening his sword to chop my head off. You have seen that I can destroy the whole city with a gesture of my finger. But, I am not going to utter a curse, even! I will simply tolerate everything with greatest forbearance and contentment.'

(In fact, only a person with Contentment can live the life in Patience and the Gratitude.)

'My God has greatest Mercy on me so that, although I am being executed tomorrow, I am going to return only fortitude' Sarmud said.

The missionary bowed at his feet and returned to Rome with a real understanding of 'Patience' and
'Gratitude'."

(From: Anmol Bachan, p 44-5 - compiled by Sister Surjeet Kaur Gandhi)



Sarmad was in fact a gay martyr he was also a saint of dara shikoh who was a follower of Sri Guru Har Rai Ji also and was familiar with mystic lore, now a lot of people will say he was not gay here is proof it is a long read and I will continue below this, BTW the reason why Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji did not include thewritings of gay saints into SGGS was not because of their lifestyle he did a study of kachi and pakki bani, pakki bani is dhur ki bani:

Sarmad, a mystic poet beheaded in 1661 

*"Armenians in **India**" pp 167-77 ; pp 179-81 & p 194, by Mesrovb Jacob Seth - **Calcutta** 1937*​[167] Armenians and merchants have been synanomous words in India, for it was trade and commerce that attracted the Armenians to this tropical country from their homes in the delectable and snow-clad mountains of Armenia, from the days of remote antiquity. 
Apart from eminent merchants, clever diplomats, great soldiers, able governors and administrators, casters of huge pieces of ordnance and manufacturers of firelocks, which, according to Marshman, "were superior to the Tower-proof muskets of the Company", the Armenians have given to India a poet of great merit whose fame spread over Mohammedan India as a saint and a scholar, in the middle of the 17th century, and to this day, his memory is revered and kept green by all lovers of the noble, the beautiful and the sublime, not only in this country, but in the countries where the charms of the beautiful language of the immortal Ferdosi. Nizami, Saadi, Hafez, Jami and Khayyam, have captured and captivated the imagination of millions. 
But who was this remarkable poet whom even the mighty Emperor Aurungzebe, the last of the Great Moguls, dreaded and ultimately beheaded, as can be seen later on. 
Let us first tap the European sources for reliable information about this remarkable Armenian. 
In the Oriental Biographical Dictionary by Thomas William Beale, revised and enlarged in 1894 by that eminent Persian scholar and historian. Henry George Keene,(*1) [168] M.R.A.S., we find the following authoritative account of Sarmad :— "Sarmad, the poetical name of an Armenian merchant who came to India in the reign of the Emperor Shah Jehan. In one of his journeys towards Thatta, he fell so passionately in love with a Hindu girl(*2) that he became distracted and would go about the streets naked. He was well versed in the Persian language and was a good poet. In the beginning of the reign of Alamgir [Aurungzebe] he was put to death on account of his disobeying the orders of that Emperor, who had commanded him not to so about naked, This even took place about the year 1661 (1072 A.H.). Some say that the real cause of his execution was a Rubcu [quatrain] which he had composed, the translation of which is: "The Mullas say that Mohammad entered the heavens, but Sarmad says that the heavens entered Mohammad " His tomb is close to the Juma Musjid at Delhi. Following in the footsteps of his compatriots, Sarmad came out to India as a merchant from Persia by sea He set up in business in the town of Thathah in Sindh, on the shores of the Indus, where his business thrived exceedingly and he spent his days in comfort and peace. During his sojourn in that city he contracted a close friendship with a Hindu lad, Abhai Chand by name. This was the turning point in his life, for unlike his calculating and serious minded countrymen, he neglected his business, lost the equilibrium of his mind altogether and relinquishing his life of comfort and peace, he lived thenceforth the austere life of a naked Hindu fakir- (ascetic) and in this nude state he would go and sit at the door of his beloved Abhai Chand. The following translation of a distich shows the true sentiment of the distracted Sarmad : "I know not if in this spherical old monastery [the world} My God is Abhai Chand or some one else." 
The boy's father seeing the earnestness of the ascetic, and the purity of the attachment, allowed him to come to his house with [169] the result that his son Abhai Chand became so much attached to Sarmad that he could not bear to live apart from him. Soon after this, both left Thathah and went to Delhi. Shah Jehan was then the Mogul Emperor of India. People flocked round Sarmad and many found him to be a man of great sanctity and supernatural powers. 
The eldest son of the Emperor, the unfortunate prince Dara Shikoh, whose devotion to Brahmanical dogmas and theosophical beliefs is well known, was one of Sarmad's constant visitors and staunch admirers. It was Dara Shikoh who brought the miraculous powers of the saint, (Sarmad) to the notice of his august father, the Emperor Shah Jehan. The prudent Emperor deputed Inayat Khan, one of the Umara (grandees), of his Court to ascertain the real facts. The grandee visited the naked saint and his report was most favorable if not reassuring. Prince Dara Shikoh was one of the many disciples of Sarmad and the tutor had predicted that Dara Shikoh would be the next Emperor after Shah Jehan. Which prediction was not however fulfilled through the treachery of Aurengzebe who ascended the throne of the mighty Moguls by first imprisoning his father and then murdered his two brothers, Dara Shikoh and Murad Baksh. 
Aurangzebe hated Sarmad for having been a partisan of Dara Shikoh on whom he had promised to confer the throne When Aurungzebe had usurped the throne, he taunted Sarmad about the succession of his favorite disciple, Dara Shikoh to the throne, which he had promised him. Sarmad calmly replied : “God has given him the eternal sovereignty and my promise is not falsified." Needless to add that the Emperor was greatly displeased and incensed with this sarcastic reply of the naked (*3) saint and from that moment he decided to put an end to that poor man's life. The favorable moment was [170] not long in coming, as Sarmad, who was a Sufi,(*4) had expressed sentiments of a heretical nature in the following distich, ridiculing the nocturnal journey of Mohammed to heaven . 
"The Mullas say that Abroad went to heaven. 
Sarmad says that heaven came down to Ahmad". 
According to the Sufis who believe in the unity of the creator and the created, there is nothing objectionable in this doctrine, moreover as in the opinion of certain Ulama, the Miraj, or the nocturnal journey of Mahomed to heaven was allegorical and spiritual, but a fanatic and a bigot like Aurungzebe, could not possibly tolerate such a blasphemy, open and palpable, that was likely to shake the foundation of the Mohammedan faith. 
The supreme moment had at last arrived for Aurungzebe to wreak his vengeance on the harmless naked saint and scholar and he immediately ordered his execution. 
It is said that when the condemned man was being led away from the tribunal to the place of execution, he uttered, ex tempore, 24 quatrains. The crowd was so dense that one could pass through it with great difficulty. 
When the executioner, a low caste man of the sweeper class, approached him with his naked sword, he wanted, according to custom, to cover the condemned man's head, but Sarmad hinted not to do it, then he smiled and addressing the executioner said :— 
"The friend with naked sword has now arrived 
In whatever disguise thou mayst come, I recognize thee, 
He also uttered the following distich : 
“There was an uproar and we opened our eyes from the eternal sleep. 
[171] Saw that the night of wickedness endured, so we slept again". 
Aqil Khan Razi, the court chronicler of Aurungzebe, writes that when the executioner was about to inflict the fatal blow, Sarmad uttered : 
"The nakedness the body was the dust of the road to the friend, 
That too was severed, with the sword, from our head". 
According to another version Sarmad uttered : 
"My head was severed from the body by that flirt, who was my companion, 
The story was shortened, otherwise the headache would have been too severe". 
One of the companions of Sarmad, one Shah Asadullah, went up to him and told him 
"Do cover your nakedness and utter the creed in full and you will be let off". 
Sarmad looked up, said nothing in reply but uttered the following couplet : 
"A long time since the fame of Mansur became an ancient relic, 
I will exhibit with my head the sallow and the cord”. 
Sarmad died cheerfully and with complete resignation like every Armenian that has suffered martyrdom, for his religion, at the hands of the Mohammedans during the past 1300 years. Prince Dara Shikoh, the disciple of Sarmad, and the rightful heir to the throne of the Moguls, was beheaded by the order of his younger brother, that consummate hypocrite and fanatic Aurungzebe, in the year 1069 A.H. (1659 A.D.) and two years later, Sarmad shared the fate of his royal pupil, “and from that day", says a native historian, "the house of Timour declined both in glory and power". 
He was beheaded in 1661 near the Jama MusJid at Delhi, for heresy, in the midst of an unprecedentedly huge crowd and though not a Mohammedan, yet he was buried under the steps [172] of the great mosque where his grave is venerated to this day, by Hindus as well as Mohammedans, who make offerings of flowers, light candles and burn incense on the saint's revered grave, after his martyrdom 275 years ago. Sarmad was considered well inspired and a man of sanctity. 
The people of India have not forgotten that the harmless naked saint was killed by the order of Aurungzebe because he loved Dara Shikoh and championed his cause. 
It is recorded that on the day of the execution, the Emperor said to the ecclesiastics (fudala) that a man was not liable to be executed merely for his nudity but that he should be required to pronounce the Islamic creed. Addressing the saint, they said "How is it that inspite of your great learning, you only utter the first half of the Kalima(*5) or creed and not the remaining part"? Sarmad replied that "I am still absorbed in the negative part, why shall I tell a lie"? So, according to this version, Sarmad's execution, at the suggestion of the Emperor was made according to the Islamic Law. So far as can be seen, the execution, in the opinion of the fanatic Aurungzebe, was necessary from a religious point of view.
Living the life of a nude mendicant, composing delightful quatrains, some of which may well be compared with those of Omar Khayyam, yet Sarmad interested himself in politics by becoming a partisan of Dara Shikoh whom he predicted to be Shah Jehan's rightful successor. This was gall and wormwood to Aurungzebe. Sarmad was the center of attraction to the public at Delhi. Dara was condemned and beheaded because of his apostacy and Sarmad was condemned and killed for having contributed partly to that apostacy. Deeply as he disliked his eldest brother Dara, for his politics and leanings towards the tenets of non-Muslims and mendicants, (majazib), his first act, as soon as he came to power, was to remove that arch heretic and those who had aided and abetted him in his apostacy and political activities. Sarmad who was a Sufi and [173] a mystic philosopher was a great Persian scholar and had read science and metaphysics with such well known and distinguished scholars as Mulla Sadr-ud-din Shirazi, Mirza Abul Qasim Fandarsaki and other eminent scholars of the time. 
Sarmad was so filled with divine love that to him the king, the judge, the executioner, the whole universe, including himself, were the same. The soul itself and the universe were merged into Divinity. He had no consciousness of himself. 
The following letter which Prince Dara Shikoh addressed to Sarmad shows the high regard the royal pupil had for his saintly master: 
My Pir and Preceptor— 
Everyday I resolve to pay my respects to you. It remains unaccomplished. If I be I, wherefore is my intention of no account? If I be not—what is my fault? Though the murder of Imam Hossain was the will of God: Who is (then) Yazid between (them). If it is not the Divine Will, then what is the meaning of "God does whatever He wills and commands whatever He intends”? The most excellent prophet used to go to fight the unbelievers, defeat was inflicted on the army of Islam. The exoteric scholars say it was an education in resignation. For the perfect what education was necessary?" Sarmad's reply to the above epistle consisted of two lines, in verse, which can be translated thus :— 
“My dear— 
What we have read, we have forgotten, 
Save the discourse of the Friend which we reiterate.” 
Sarmad's name stands prominent in the republic of letters. Daghistani calls him eminent in learning and Arabic scholarship. His impromptus are very popular in Delhi. His poems consist mostly of quatrains. In a quatrian(*6) Sarmad says that he follows Hafez in qazal and Omar Khayyam in rubaiyat. 
[174] All the biographical works of the Persian poets that have been written after him contain appreciative and highly eulogistic notices of Sarmad. 
His favorite companion and disciple, Abhai Chand who was the son of a wealthy Hindoo rajah, according to Nasrabadi, left his father, mother, home and wealth and adopted the life of a mendicant and took to sitting on ashes like the Hindoo faqirs. According to the same writer. Abhai Chand, died soon after Sarmad was beheaded through intense grief. 
As we have said, Sarmad was a Sufi poet and there are verses which he composed that might be construed by a bigot as being against Islamic religion and on account of such opinion, he brought on his head the wrath of the Emperor Aurungzebe who was a stem puritan all his life and a bigoted champion of orthodoxy. His fanaticism, intolerance and his inordinate zeal for the Mohammedan religion were the main causes of the downfall of the glorious Mogul Empire in India. 
Sarmad who was a theist, taunted the fanatic Aurungzebe with the following caustic quatrain ; declaring his religious convictions and openly proclaiming, to the chagrin of the Emperor, that he was not a Mohammedan. 
It can be translated thus :—
“O ! King of Kings, I am not a hermit like thee, I am not nude. 
I am frenzied, I am distracted, but I am not depressed, 
I am an idolater, I am an infidel, I am not of the people of the faith, 
I go towards the mosque, but I am not a Muslim.” 
No complete collection of the quatrains of Sarmad have been published, though a few of them have been lithographed [175] at Lahore, Delhi and Bombay, with biographical notices of the poet in the Urdu language. 
According to Dr. Rieu, more than 400 of the quatrains of Sarmad are preserved in MS. in the British Museum. There is in the well-known Oriental Library of Rampur State a MS. copy of the Diwan of Sarmad, containing the portrait of the poet, with his disciple Abhai Chand. 
Francois Bernier, M.D., a French physician at the Court of Shah Jehan, writing of naked Hindu faqi'rs, in his Travels in Hindusthan, refers to Sarmad as follows : 
"I have seen for a long while a very famous one in Delhi, called Sarmet, who went thus stark naked along the streets, and who at length would rather suffer his neck to be cut off, than to put on any clothes, what promises or menaces soever Aurung Zebe might send to him.
" On hearing of Sarmad's death, Bernier wrote as follows:— 
"I was for a long time disgusted with a celebrated Fakir, named Sarmet, who walked in the streets of Delhi as naked as he came to the world. He despised equally the threats and persuations of Aurungzebe and underwent at length the punishment of decapitation for his obstinate refusal to put on his wearing apparel." 
Another European, Niccolao Manucci, in his “Storia do Mogor” (as translated by William Irvine, 1901) writes :— 
Vol. I, p. 223 : Dara held to no religion, when with Mahommedans, he praised the tenets of Muhammad, when with Jews, the Jewish religion ; in the same way. when with Hindus. he praised Hinduism. This is why Aurungzebe styled him a {censored} (infidel). At the same time, he had great delight in talking to the Jesuit fathers on religion, and making them dispute with his learned Mahommedans, or with Cermad [Sarmad] an atheist much liked by the prince. This man went always naked, except when he appeared in the presence [176] of the prince when he contented himself with a piece of cloth at his waist.” 
And on p. 384, he says : 
"After the death of his brother. Dara, Aurungzib ordered them to bring to his presence Acermaad [Sarmad], the atheist, to whom Dara had been devoted, and asked him where was his devoted prince. He replied that he was then present, 'but you cannot see him for you tyrannize over those of your own blood; and in order to usurp the Kingdom, you took away the life of your brothers and did other barbarities. On hearing these words. Aurungzebe ordered his head to be cut off." 
We have seen in the beginning of this Chapter, on the authority of that well-informed author of the "Oriental Biographical Dictionary", that Sarmad was an Armenian who like his countrymen, had come to India for the purposes of trade. which in those days was the sole occupation of the Armenians in India. And in the prefaces to the Lahore and the Delhi editions of Sarmad’s quatrains (rubayat) by learned biographers he is called an Armenian by nationality and a Christian by religion yet there are some Mohammedan historians and biographers who say Sarmad was a Jew(*7) from Kashan in Persia and a convert to Islam. 
There lived in Calcutta an eminent Persian scholar and a journalist, the late Syed Agah Jalaluddin-al-Hossaini, known as Muyyid-al-Islam, who was, by a strange coincidence, .a native of Kashan, the supposed birthplace of the poet, Sarmad. In order to satisfy ourselves about the vexed question of the poet s nationality we thought of seeking his advice in the matter some eight years ago as he was a great authority on Persian poets, their lives and their works. [177] 
We called on the veteran journalist who had unfortunately lost his sight during the latter years of his life and found him lying on an easy chair, in the editorial office, dictating an editorial to his scribe for his favorite Hablul-Malin. After the usual salutations and compliments we asked the Persian sage about the nationality of Sarmad and the country he hailed from. He was greatly surprised that we, a countryman of the poet, should have any doubts in the matter, as Sarmad was known to be an Armenian from Persia. When we told him that a certain Mohammedan writer had said in a public lecture that Sarmad was a Jew from Kashan, he was -highly amused and remarked sarcastically that it was not possible for a persecuted, miserable, unkempt, unwashed and unlettered Jew of Kashan to rise to the proud and enviable position of a famous Persian poet. 
When we were wishing him good-bye and expressing our thanks for his kind courtesy, the good old man wished to know the reason of our enquiry about the poets nationality. We told him that we intended writing an account of Sarmad in one of the leading Armenian journals and did not wish to commit ourselves, whereupon he said in an authoritative tone, “go and write that Muayyid-al-Islam says that Sarmad was an Armenian from Iran" (Bero benevis khe Muayyid-al-Islam meegooiad khe Sarmad Armanee bood az Iran). 
Sher Khan Lodi, who was a celebrated poet in the reign of the Emperor Aurungzebe and had ample opportunities of seeing Sarmad, states, in his Life of poets, called Maratal Khial, that Hakhim Sarmad was an Armenian from Faranghisthan (Europe) and was originally engaged in trade when he came out to India.
.... 
[179]There are some interesting anecdotes, founded on traditions, about the supernatural powers of Sarmad, prevalent amongst the people of Delhi to this day, for the truth of which we cannot vouch. It is said that the Emperor Aurungzebe who was a puritan, had strictly forbidden the use of bhang as a narcotic because of its deleterious effects. One of the many spies of the King reported to him that Sarmad, in defiance of the royal fiat, was addicted to the vice of smoking bhang and that he kept the drug in an earthen pot near him always wherever he sat. This was good news for Aurungzebe who was always trying to find fault with the poet whom he hated with a deadly hatred. He paid a sudden visit to Sarmad and found the poet lecturing to his disciples. He at once noticed the earthen pot and asked Sarmad what it contained. The poet suspecting that the Emperor had been apprised of the contents of the earthen pot, replied nonchalantly that it contained some milk and on the Emperor pressing him to show him the milk, Sarmad most unconcernedly uncovered the pot and lo and behold there was milk in it. His disciples who knew what the earthen pot contained originally were simply amazed and spread the news of the miracle performed by their master in converting the harmful bhang into harmless milk. 
There is another anecdote equally interesting. One day Sarmad was watching a mollah praying earnestly and with great devotion in the Juma Musjid at Delhi. The poet told his followers that the mollah's god was under his (Sarmad's) feet. A spy immediately carried the news to Aurungzebe who was praying in the mosque at the same time, it being a Friday. The irate Emperor came up to Sarmad and ordered him immediately to give a satisfactory explanation for his blasphemy. Sarmad who could never be intimidated by Aurungzebe, told him to send for the mollah and ask him to confess what he was praying for. The nervous ecclesiastic, who was trembling in his shoes in the presence of the stern monarch, nolens volens confessed that he was praying to God to grant him some money to enable him to get his daughter married. 
Sarmad remarked that the mollah had spoken the truth for once in his life and asked Aurungzebe to get his men to dig [180] the ground where he stood and on digging the place they found some gold coins buried there. 
Sarmad was jubilant over the discovery and told the astonished Emperor in his usual cynical tone that he was not wrong when he said that the mollah's god was under his feet. 
Aurungzebe was nonplussed and confounded but the news spread with lightening speed that Sarmad had worked another miracle. 
Any wonder then that Aurungzebe hated Sarmad with the deadly hatred of a fanatic and wished to put an end to the life of an unbeliever who was looked upon as a saint and a holy man by the public in the early years of his reign of intolerance and religious persecution. 
Whilst these lines were passing through the press, we were informed by the gallery assistant of the Delhi Fort Museum that there is an inscription on Sarmad's tombstone. 
We reproduce his letter which is as follows :— 
"In reply to your enquiry. I beg to inform you that at the head of Sarmad's grave, there is a masonry pillar with lamp niches and on it has been fixed an incised slab of stone containing 
the following inscription in Persian :— 
Which can be translated thus :— 
When Shah Sarmad in the reign of Alamgeer 
[Aurungzebe] set out on a journey to Paradise. 
Poor Akbar said the date, 
"This is the grave of Sarmad the Martyr”. 
The people in Delhi greatly venerate the grave of Sarmad and daily burn lights and incenses and sprinkle fresh roses and flowers on it. The Muslims who come to Delhi from far and near never miss a visit to the grave of this saint. Besides, the musicians sing religious songs at the grave of Sarmad nearly every evening and particularly on Thursdays. A class of [181] illiterate Muslims also celebrate the festival of Basant near its grave." 
Peace to his soul, rest to his ashes and may the revered memory of the great poet be cherished and kept green, for ages to be, in the land where he suffered martyrdom for his open defiance of Islamic rituals and customs.
.... 
[194] We cannot conclude this chapter without recording our grateful thanks to Hakim Habibur Rahman, the well-known Yunani physician of Dacca and a good Persian scholar, for having brought to our notice, some eight years ago, that the renowned poet SARMAD was an ARMENIAN. .... 
*Notes* 
(*1) [167] Keene is the author of several learned works on Indian history notably of the Mogul period. His Turks in India and The Mogul Empire are master-pieces. He has compiled interesting Guide Books to Delhi and Agra, replete with historical and topographical information. He was Judge at Agra in 1879. 
(*2) [168] According to Mohammedan historians and biographers it was a Hindu lad of the Bunnia caste, Abhai Chand by name. 
(*3) [169] In a quatrain (rubai) addressed to his relentless persecutor the Emperor Aurungzebe, Sarmad gives the reason of his nudity: “He who save you the sovereignty of the world. Gave me all the causes of anxiety. He covered with a garment those who had any fault (deformity) To the faultless he gave the robe of nudity." 
(*4) [170] For a history of the origin and the growth of Sufism in Persia, see the note at the end of this Chapter. 
(*5) [172] The first part of the Kalima, which is in Arabic, can be translated thus : "There is no God but God" (La Ala Allalah) and the second part, "And Mohaaunad is his prophet" (Mohammad rasool Allah). It was quite natural that Sarmad refused to utter the second part of the Kalima, not being a Mohammedan. 
(*6) [173] Sarmad pays a well-deserved compliment to Hafez and Khayyam, two of the greatest poets of Persia, in the following quatrain :— "I have no business with the fancy and thought of others, In composing a ghazal I adopt the manner of Hafez, But in rubai, I am a disciple of Khayyam, But do no quaff much of his wine." 
(*7) [176] There are no records of Jews coming to India from Persia for the purposes of trade in the 16th, 17th or 18th centuries. The Sassoons, the Jacobs and other merchant princes of Bombay came From Baghdad in Mesopotomia, so did the Ezras, the Gubbays and the Manassehs of Calcutta in the early part of the l9th century.


So to conclude folks there is no problem with sexual orientation all people have a place on this earth and unions are not for creation such a purpose is not compatible with Sikhism.

“Homosexuality is a demand supply issue those who missed on good relationship at right time indulge in this.”

This makes me laugh you do not have the slightest clue my friend people are homosexual from birth!!!!!.  Now you have at times talked of other faiths rejecting homosexuality this is not true no religion rejects homosexuality, because Sodom was destroyed as men were raping other men they were not in a committed homosexual relationship and any way semitic faiths are “farishta ka din” not dhur ki bani, there is a significant difference because farishta has a purpose in the cscheme of gods creativity therefore any message to do with god has been muddled with their own purpose, for instance satan was fallen and exists in hell, but there is no such things as heaven and hell for man because creation was given for man to live in , heavenly bodies such as farishtas have hells and heavens but these are not for man.  I have wrote an essay on this issue I am posting it here and you will be hard presses to find anything to qualify your claims that homosexual relationships are not valid, happy reading:

Homosexuality A Bias Sikh Perspective

I have decided to write this essay in response to the ‘coming out’ (pardon the pun) on this subject by the clergy , I am disgusted that these people are our spokesmen/women they don’t have a clue about the wider world and I don’t think any of them have ever been in love.




PERFECT FAMILY
I have yet to experience this concept, lived in the west for 20 years and have learned that love is our greatest culture people say we need a male and female role model my grandfather was a paedophile ,suffering made his children better people they didn’t turn into paedophiles. So what if 2 men look after a child, I think its worse to raise a child on your own I mean 2 heads are better than one, our mother Mata Sahib Kaur devan was a virgin all her life, she was a virgin for a reason and that is that the perfect mother has no biological link with her children the perfect link is through the spirit which is in the sacrament of amrit the double edged sword destroys all earthly distinctions including sexual orientation, that fraternity are bound by the common love of a mother and father that need not give birth to them that is truly the perfect family unit.

BHAI KHANNAIYA JI

This man administered water to both the enemy and the khalsa without discrimination, this angered a portion of the sangat, he was forced to present himself before the guru when asked why he quenched the thirst if the enemy he said to the guru it is you who has said ‘it is the same light that exists in all’, the guru then gave Bhai Khannaiya Ji some ointment and said go do your job properly, the group of Sikhs which acted in outrage were shamed. Tell me if I were to go before the SGPC and state that the same light exists in 2 people regardless of their gender and that being the reason I support same sex marriages do you think I would be presented with a siropa? I think not the SGPC are new-age masands and nothing else.

GURDWARA AND LOCKEROOM

There are many similarities between a gurdwara and a lockeroom they both are separated by gender, in the lockeroom its for modesty reasons in the gurdwara it’s for allowing the sangat to focus, maybe we should now make a third division for homosexuals, NO!!!. In my opinion the gurus taught man to awaken his moral responsibility hence rejecting the purdah of Islam, we have lost sight of the teachings of our gurus.

BABA VADHBHAG SINGH JI

*Please do not turn this debate into an argument about dhirmalias*

Pseudo-saints have argued that a marriage is between the female part of the soul and the male part, if a person becomes possessed by a spirit prior to marriage it is possible at the point of marriage for a soul to be married to its host and new partner. I have seen this in the symbolic reverse-lavans that take place at Manji sahib at dera Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji in the mountains in HP the man or women who is possessed have to walk backwards around the bir they call it putthe-lavans _(backward circambulation) this may sound silly, but it has symbolic implications for a soul ,and the host divorces its parasitic soul, this can happen with the dead soul of a male with a living male and vica versa for a female, this long winded explanation proves there is no such thing as female and male soul, gender is limited to this mortal coil anything to the contrary is crap.

TIME/YUG

Homosexuality has existed from the beginning of time anyone who says it’s a western thing or kaljug are blind, orthodoxy is something that has crept into our faith because people choose to follow a conduct blindly without understanding its message, these people are an embarrassment, sikhi is a liberal faith, we can update our praxis as we see fit, deification of our glorious history has lead to an imbalance of thought and no spontaneity when it comes to making political decisions. There are no schisms in sikhi just schizmoids parading as jathedars.

LOVE
A homosexual male can only love a women as a sister or mother figure or friend NEVER as a lover, so the definition of man and women being the perfect family unit is flawed and as we strive for sarbat da bhalla this does not look after the welfare of homosexuals. A heterosexual person will always find it hard to digest homosexuality therefore we should let homosexuals themselves be the measure of their love and commitment towards one another this is not a discussion for religion it is outside the realms of loving god because god loves all regardless of their sexuality god even created homosexuality, amrit is viable for gays and lesbians alike i wonder if a hermaphrodite has ever taken amrit?. 


BESTIALITY AND PEODOPHILLIA etcetc
What if tomorrow people, whose sexual preference is bestiality, want to marry animals?
Homosexuality is consensual like heterosexuality, bestiality and paedophilia can NEVER be consensual. Religion teaches us not to be obsessed with sex, people have taken the opinion that homosexuality is just sexual and have given total disregard to the minute possibility of a homosexual relationship having anything to do with LOVE, in this respect I believe testosterone has got the better of these scholars and they may want to control their androgynous fervour by being more open minded (not weak!), don’t you know its a kurahit in sikhi to have lust?. 

SEMITISM 
Sikhi teaches us to establish a relationship with the divine this is possible to any human being regardless of their sexual habits. People mention Sodom and Gomorrah which were destroyed supposedly by gods wrath, OUR RELIGION IS NOT SEMITIC WE HAD A DIRECT REVELATION FROM GOD, Quran which depicts this story is an indirect revelation from an angel called Gabrielle, angels are not without sin Satan being a good example, that is the beauty of sikhi all our gurus ,pirrs ,bhagats had the same perspective if you cant see god in all you cant see god at all!!!!!. Please dont bring other religious traditions into consideration when discussing issues such as these we will not follow by example of other traditions but come into our own, and if people find that hard to digest then let them choke we have made a lot of sacrifices as minorities, and should therefore understand the position of other minority groups!!. 

ANAND KARAJ
Anand Karaj: the union of 2 souls not a {censored} and a vagina! People talk about family life preferable over celibacy and promiscuity WRONG AGAIN!!!, sikhi rejects gristhi and sanyasin and commands us to be sant sipahi (teesri panth), on the battlefield you will not shy away from the protection of a khalsa if he or she is homosexual. The 4 lavans talk about marriage being essential so that we help spiritually nourish one another through our love for one another and achieve union. Some people say homosexuality is a disease or a disability I know of homosexuals which have excelled in every field of human endeavour including sainthood! Culture has had a large impact on the way we marry there was never any circambulation of GGS during lavans this is bipran-mat that has crept into our faith therefore further reinforcing gender stereotypes ie, the brothers have to hold the sister cos she’s a girl and she’s really weak and might start crying but we all know its so she doesn’t do a legger! (lol).

HUMAN PURPOSE
It was never mans purpose to have children or continue the human race it is to learn to love one another and through that wonder, fall in love with god if these conditions are not met for all types of people we will have what we have to day a stagnant society, just because you tell people homosexuality is a crime punishable by death has not stopped god causing to be born homosexuals within those very regimes, so how many time will we keep falling on the same hurdle until we learn to accept that it is a reality and we should understand and integrate it within the doctrines of sikhi instead of applying self appropriated notions of common sense and decency to situations we can never understand. This dilemma is the same as the diabolic interpretations western and eastern scholars have made of our faith, in general we have to suffer their short comings and lack of understanding cos our own people have not made any satisfactory attempt of rebuttal of their writings and in the same way these people are jumping on the same bandwagon with every other dogma encrusted religious tradition by saying that homosexuality defies the lords will and is against nature, but really they are disgusted with homosexuality and its various camp stereotypes. The sad reality is that we are becoming like the mughal emperors, they were people who never repeated the lords name whilst they were alive but were quick to hide behind their religion when executing our gurus, such narrow minded conceited people who never took the time to understand the message behind something DIFFERENT.



AIDS
People talk about sodomy and aids, yes their right, knowingly spreading any disease is a sin but what does that have to do with homosexuality? this is a discussion about the civil union of 2 people who are in love, their bedroom antics are not open to discussion. Raping men by sodomy I believe is the sin in the city of Sodom, love was never in the equation, if sodomy is the sin then how will we find the sin of lesbians? 


SAME SEX MARRIAGES
Can there ever be homosexual marriages in sikhism? 
Not until several generations have passed, because by that time the people who run the temples with orthodoxy will have been dead and buried and the liberal nature of sikhi will then surface and who knows, I mean, if we can marry a child to an old man in India god knows what we can do outside of India? (im being sarcastic). 



waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh! 

Inderjit Singh Dhillon 

Ps: if I have offended you I apologise profusely a thousand times I don’t mean any animosity i am just passionate about sikhism NOT about homosexuality, but if someone is going to introduce a subject regarding sikhi for the first time, which by the way I commend the clergy for, I feel it is a learning curve for all of us to engage in debate that way we can find a position that is amicable to all of us and that my friends is SARBAT DA BHALLA.


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## drkhalsa (Jan 9, 2006)

> Homosexuality is a demand supply issue those who missed on good relationship at right time indulge in this.
> 
> HP


 

Dear HP JI


your above statement is absolutely wrong 

No homosexuality is not always by choice 

There could be people who will fit in your defination of homosexuals but we are not talking about them
we are talking about the people how are homsexuals from birth ( believe me this right it has benn proved medically that this trait has its origin in the womb of a mother ) and not by choice.


Jatinder Singh


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## ISDhillon (Jan 9, 2006)

Drkhalsa ji Satsriakal,

Your message was great, I dont know whether the forum is aware but in november Iran executed two 14 year old boys for being homosexual and I saw this on tv and the footage was harrowing the 2 boys were crying and were taken to the hangman and hanged and this hurt me to the core of my soul and I am usually not a soft person but I think if I didnt have faith in guruji I would have gone mad witnessing such zulum, which is what our guru fought years to uproot but today some sikhs are a hypocrisy to that undying love those old khalsa people had years ago.

Thankyou for your message,

Inderjit Singh Dhillon


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## devinesanative (Jan 12, 2006)

Dear friends,

When ever a problem surfaces in the society , what we human beings try to do is straight away either ignore or reject on the religious grounds or due to embarassment .

Homosexuality and Lesbianism is created to due to the societal Imbalance .

People indulging in Homo or lesb find it more easier no barriers , but the natural relationship has lots of barriers.


Though in Homo and Lesb , People see them as same sex , but inside them one of them is a Masculine and the other is a Femine character.

Because when the body demands , a person only looks for sexual pleasure , whether from same sex or opposite sex .


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## devinesanative (Jan 12, 2006)

Hanging the homo or lesb , or killing them won't solve the purpose .

Its a psychological Unbalance created by lots of complex factors But it  is curable.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 12, 2006)

Gurfateh

It is not an imblance at all but more to do with structureing of brain.


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## ISDhillon (Jan 12, 2006)

Homosexuality is not an imbalance at all, and the masculine and feminine character is an objective disorder created by societies who have misconceived religious and self appropriated notions of normailty, I wonder how many people actually engage in discussion with homosexuals, my guess is little or none well I work with them and their is no difference I put my life on it.

Indy


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## devinesanative (Jan 12, 2006)

sometimes those who are very close to the reality , even they sometimes fail to see the actual reality .


There have been many cases of sexual conversion out of homosexuality and lesbianism .

Some times the Homosexuals and Lesbians don't even know that one of them has the feminine character whereas the other as the Masculine Character .


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## ISDhillon (Jan 12, 2006)

Sometimes the person sitting next to you will be a homosexual but you wont know cos they dont exhibit any signs of an objective disorder, I have never heard of conversions to and from homosexuality and lesbianism to hetrosexuality, but what I have seen especially in my country is that the youth do test things out and that I think is a bit silly just prioritise love in a relationship whether gay or straight.  Alexander the great is a fine specimen from history who was homosexual and he never showed signs of feminininty he colonised half of earth.  Vijaydeep singh Ji mentioned structure of the brain I did an alevel in psychology and their was a practice years ago that was called a labotomy it was theorised that murderers had protuding foreheads so surgeans removed that part of the brain and indeed the murderers became non-violent, but they also became zombies who never spoke and dribbled throughout the day from their mouths the study was proved to be false and the procedures were stopped.  Sometimes people we just have to let people be the judge of their own reality and as I see it homosexuals infringe on no-one I therefore can see no problems with same-sex marriage.  The union of souls knows no gender.

Indy


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 12, 2006)

ISDhillon said:
			
		

> Sometimes the person sitting next to you will be a homosexual but you wont know cos they dont exhibit any signs of an objective disorder, I have never heard of conversions to and from homosexuality and lesbianism to hetrosexuality, but what I have seen especially in my country is that the youth do test things out and that I think is a bit silly just prioritise love in a relationship whether gay or straight. Alexander the great is a fine specimen from history who was homosexual and he never showed signs of feminininty he colonised half of earth. Vijaydeep singh Ji mentioned structure of the brain I did an alevel in psychology and their was a practice years ago that was called a labotomy it was theorised that murderers had protuding foreheads so surgeans removed that part of the brain and indeed the murderers became non-violent, but they also became zombies who never spoke and dribbled throughout the day from their mouths the study was proved to be false and the procedures were stopped. Sometimes people we just have to let people be the judge of their own reality and as I see it homosexuals infringe on no-one I therefore can see no problems with same-sex marriage. The union of souls knows no gender.
> 
> Indy


 
Gurfateh

das used term structuring of brain which means various factor by birth,after birth in socity and other inner and outer factor bringing about some features in brain which make someone homosexual.

Das also Thanks Indy Brother Ji for giving very usefull information. About brain.

das recomend Dear DS to take note of new term called labotomy which will be usefull for both of us in study of Human brain in future.

Das again thanks Indy Ji and expect similar inputs from him in future.


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## devinesanative (Jan 13, 2006)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha , Hmmmmmm....

So you have studied psychology , wonderful... Good keep it up !


Dear vijaydeep ji , you are right that structuring of brain has a series of factors as mentioned by you...

I would suggest both of you to see the movie "The Other Side of Sunday" ... Though this movie has nothing to do with homosexuality...

But some other thing , just to know how much you can understand a human being , and what you conclude out of the movie and what the movie protrays...


As you know me better , dear vijay deep ji , so please take the above suggestion in a light way , and in the spirit of discussion.


Now coming to topic...

Sometimes the parents who have given the birth to a child don't know him/her completely .

The problems we generally see our lives or in society is just the top most problem.


But behind that problems there are series of problems that gives birth to the present problem.

What we see is just the effect , but not the actual reality...

When you will deeply fire series of qustions to a problem seeker , you will find a different and amazing things .


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## devinesanative (Jan 13, 2006)

hey if you know any Homosexual and lesbian , then do invite some of them to give their vital inputs .

I would like to seek enlightenment from them by seeking answers to my queries.


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## jasi (Jan 18, 2006)

reference to above subjector topic all i can comments that there are many abnormality exsist in the society and among the human being we have to consider normalcy rulling al along without avoiding  the minority with abnormality. we must respect their indiffrences but do not apply on the rest of societies. all our gurus and relegious teacher were very much aware of all this but motivated us to be good and praise the Almoghty.


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jan 23, 2006)

DevinesaNative Ji, I am a homosexual and I consider myself completely adjusted.  I also do not consider "masculine" and "feminine" two mutually exclusive categories.  Men and women of all kinds have both masculine and feminine characteristics in them.  That is just part of being human.  

Let me ask you to read this forum from beginning to end.  You will find most of your answers there.  Then, feel free to ask me any questions you wish.  I can give you some basics here:

1.  Hundreds of psychological studies done since the 1950's have shown NO pathological difference between homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals.  There is no difference in mental health between these groups that correlates with sexual orientation.  

2.  Everyone tends to think in terms of sex, but the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals is WHO THEY FALL IN LOVE WITH.  Sex is of course part of that, but most homosexuals can have sex with the opposite sex.  It just doesn't feel good to us because there is no emotional connection there since romantic love is absent.   Do not make the mistake of thinking any sexuality is about sex only.  It is not.  

3.  You say it is "easier" to be lesbian or gay.  I thorougly disagree.  Relationships are hard work, and it is no exception for the homosexual couple than it is for the heterosexual couple.  In fact, I think it is much, much harder because you cannot rely on your family for advice or help.  People will harass you or beat you up.  You have no right to see your partner if they are in a hospital or in prison.  Islamics stone homosexuals, and fundamentalist Christians have talked about killing homosexuals.  

4.  No one has ever been "converted" from homosexual to heterosexual.  The experience of people who have gone to "ex-gay" program in the US is that 5 years after the program, 90% have had at least one homosexual relationship and the other 10% now consider themselves "bisexual" but will only have heterosexual relationships.  I see conversions as nothing more than trying to conform to a strict reading of Christian dogma.  Where in the Guru's beautiful visions does it say that I must conform?  All God asks of me is to love Waheguruji and to love other humans, and to live the life of a householder.  I think after 13 years with my partner, I can safely say that I am very much the householder.  

Again, feel free to ask questions, but first read this whole thread.  


Jogindar


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## jasi (Jan 24, 2006)

dear   lost one. i can only say my opinion that every part of body is meant to be what is it for.so now you can imagin what i mean.follow the normal fuctions of your body and mind and the teaching of our gurus so you may not committ a deeds which will make your soul abuse the funtions and put on healthy thinking.

we were born and at certain age  with desires of sex and pleasure . since pleasure last few minuts and the scripture teaches us how to control if you do not want the consequences what you can see in the worldare . you can witness arround the world. 

norms of any thing is very essentail for our peace of mind. lust for sex is always turns into viloance  of one kind another. brings one to frusterations and other alternative to enjoy sex but leave you empty with burning desire to do it more and more.sometime committing rape or unwanted experiencs.

love is etrenal which goes beyond a sex relation and like shri Guru Nnak Dev ji preaches us that "Grisat  Marg is the best to pass a journey of life" honest married and lookafter your childern and simran will bring you a peacful life.

so there no point about disscussing such issue on this pious forum sikh philospy .the society today is  ignoring all the norms and the consequences happening and diseases which is killing people in the world by millions,divorce rate is as high we never seen before ,childern ware without mother and father,partners looses their loyality to each others.
use your commen sense you will get all the answers but please do not over ride the them with your desire.

may God bless you with more woisdom. 
jaspi. 


Against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.

your thoughts...[/quote]


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## ISDhillon (Jan 24, 2006)

Jaspi Ji, 

It is evident that you have not bothered to read the whole thread your personal views should not be taken seriously by anyone it represents a myopic understanding of this issue, it is this type of vichar on social affairs we need to improve on, I would suggest you take time out and try to read and understand all the posts but by all means give a point by point rebuttal.

Use your bibek dont talk from panj chor,

ISDhillon:}--}:


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## devinesanative (Jan 24, 2006)

Dear Joginder Singh Kour Ji


You are and may be right , but Homo and lesb do come in different flavours.

In India there have been many cases where one couple of lesb , ie one of the girl from that couple approached the doctor for her conversion from girl to boy .


But when doctor did her operation of first phase . She got depressed and tensed , within six months she suicided.

What would you call those , who unable to find the opposite sex , start believing themselves to be both male and female as well , and switch the roles between them , cross dressing .


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jan 26, 2006)

If there is anything I've learned from Gurbani, it is that God's Hukam is complex and unknowable.  It is not up to me to place judgement on anyone; that is up to Waheguruji alone.  The SGGS teaches that there are many paths to knowledge, and I firmly believe that one of those paths is science.  It is written in the Japji (to paraphrase) "God showers humans with gifts to the point that they are tired of them."  What we feel with our hearts, what we learn with our minds, these are ALL gifts of Waheguruji.  

What I've learned over my years is this:  one's gender and one's sexuality are two different things.  I have known many transgender people who were born female or male, but live as the other gender.  I've read quite a bit on the subject, and I can say that (at least here in the West) that there are two factors that help transgendered people stay mentally healthy:  First, that they can live as the gender that they feel they are, and second, to be *accepted* as human beings.  My suspicion is that poor young man in India probably had a lot of external pressure not to change, suffered from rejection and depression, and felt suicide was the only way out.  

The complexity of our Universe only gives us a small taste of how incredible Waheguruji must be.  We cannot imagine it.  I cannot imagine that Waheguruji didn't make humans beings complex, also, and that this complexity teaches us much about how to love unconditionally, how to not judge other people, to practice charity and kindness where ever we go.  I do not believe in "people must..." or "people should..."  We as Sikhs are to avoid the 5 sins, but nowhere there does it say that you must kill yourself through depression or conformity.  To thine own self be true is another truth.  

Again, I must state that "lust" and "love" are two different things, Jaspiji.  You are not listening to me, just rushing to judgement, convinced that your definition of kaam applies to me because my way of loving is different from yours.  Kaam is not a concept to take lightly; it is basically the sexual exploitation of someone in order to selfishly satisfy a need.  This runs the gamut from rape to unprotected sex to adultery.  Nowhere does this definition deny two people who are in love and willing to create a life together a fulfilling sexual relationship.


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## Yvan (Apr 6, 2006)

I think that would be pertinent for members to read that statement from World Sikh Organisation concerning same-sex marriages:

http://www.worldsikh.org/news/press_releases/05-01-18.htm


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## CaramelChocolate (Apr 7, 2006)

Yvan said:
			
		

> I think that would be pertinent for members to read that statement from World Sikh Organisation concerning same-sex marriages:
> 
> http://www.worldsikh.org/news/press_releases/05-01-18.htm


Interesting but not very clear... it seems like they're taking a neutral stand point as to whether homosexuality is 'immoral' or not, but they are supporting gay rights on the basis of being against oppression.


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## jasi (Apr 7, 2006)

sat sri akal ji. It is my understading that human being is such a mnauplating creature who has lived until today following certain morals in which one recognize felleow citizen right to live under the same morals as human being. God has blessed us with wisdom to do what is every thing meant for i our body  which even animal knows where to go and how we can use God blessed place for reproductions of our being.

Now the society and charter of right respect one's choice but let us not a make an issue of getting marry and to be having all the social benefits what man and women gets.. There is no such thing exist unless we   dissmantle the marriage exsitance which was solely  made for further reproduction of human being.

Now when one is talking about sex or possesed drive with sex should read the litratures availble how to control your urge in sex,anger,greed,pride.

One must understand is that sex is not to do at  odd places to perform .Millions of these wron doing and abnormal practices of sex are suffering with frusterations,aids,and many other diseases at epademic pace.With my experiences in the medical firld how many people I see with infection their mouth of gonoriahor G.C.

once we eliminate moral value you have  a society of uncivilized people and we go back right in the begining to our start to be a civilized ,estabelishing rule and regulations.Human has learned a lot and estabelished moral values to live for, now when there is down going in our morals and , we are plagued with crises all over.broken family and millions of peple dying because of this man to man sex at imporoper places which not meant to perform this act. Even animal knows where to go.people for thier personal life style or the way they choose to live should have complete  rights to live that  way but it should not be overblown to the extent where childern at tender age are not mislead when they are not understading grown up  .Let  us work with common sense and make our choices what is best for all.

jaspi

jaspi 




			
				CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Interesting but not very clear... it seems like they're taking a neutral stand point as to whether homosexuality is 'immoral' or not, but they are supporting gay rights on the basis of being against oppression.


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## therebirthofkhalsa (Apr 10, 2006)

Waheguruji Ka Khalsa, Waheguruji Ki Fateh.

There are many kinds of peolple on many diferent levels, acordingly, with the amounts of love, hate, open mindness or ignorance they have.
To be this good or that bad, or to be very spiritual or not very spiritual is not determine by gender or if gay or not. Maybe there is some Karma involve, who know, not us for sure.

 Surelly only Waheguru knows the whole truth and if we really cared about Sikhism, our atitude would surely be a diferent one, just wondering how many of you have taken Amrit and living up to Khalsa.

Instead of debating on what is right and what is wrong, we should see how we can each become better and how we can become real, truthfull and get closer to GOD.
Spirituality is very much personal, and each do or dont do acordingly to how they live and the experience in life, so lay off, we are not the ones to judge and call out whats right or wrong.
 Waheguruji will handle that and handle each of us acordingly.

Regardless of being gay or not, im sure its more important if we are loving and having tolerance towards the rest of GOD´s creation.

I have read so many post and thoughts and sincerely 90% of you havent or didnt give Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji the respect and apreciation that it deserves.
Instead of finding fault and stiring up polemic, we should work on our devotion and learn to see our True Guru as what it really is, its sad to see that you consider and see it as a simple book and put it on the same level as the bible

 Sri Guru Grant Sahib is our True Guru, the embodiment of Truth, our source of Power on earth the essence of all 10 Guru, wich again is ONE in true essence. Our biggest test I believe is FAITH. 

 Please dont be fooled by Gurujis form and presence, Guruji is so very much aware, Guruji sees all our actions, Guruji hears and responds our prayers, Guruji is there extending its endless mercy to us, be we, we are so unfurtunate that we dont see it, but we see fault, we are missing out, because we have no faith in Guruji, and we have no faith in each other, so its so much easier to pretend that we are doing well by pointing out what we think is wrong with others.

 Im 31 years old im aspiring to become Khalsa and dedicate my life to Waheguru and to spread the prescious light of Sikhism and im also gay, it took me 30 years to finally accept myself and love myself as I am.
 Square minded people made it dificult for me to be happy, have self esteem and grow spiritualy as I really should have. 
Because of my need of acceptance and fare of rejection I did and became what others wanted me to, and this on the long run can only harm and destroy a person. It was almost too late when I realised it. 
 And for you that think we are wrong or evil anyone can be and its not a matter of gay or hetero, but I believe in Karma so watch out, your next child or future child can be born gay, but then again I pray that none will take birth in a family where there is no love. Love has no requirements or rules, you either love or you dont, if you dont you are so far from it all. 

Peace and love!

yours trully

T. Talwaar Singh


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## Randip Singh (Apr 12, 2006)

I cannot believe our Guru's wuld discriminate against homosexuals.

I find biggotry towards homosexuals by some "Sikhs" most distasteful.


Anand Karaj is a Union of Souls, and Sikhi CLEARLY states that the SOUL is GENDERLESS. So therefore how can we condemm a relationship between two men or two women.

This nonsense about these relationships being based purely on Kaam is foolish. A Hetrosexual relationship where the party cannot have children naturally is surely based on Kaam too then?


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## jaga (Oct 5, 2006)

there will be a great war , were we will have to once again draw our karpans and shed blood , 

to die in battle is to die honorabley ,
this is what sikhism means to me .... i don't care what you do behind closed doors , but as long as you fight couragously beside me is what will define you in the eyes of god.

i'm far from being an expert in sikhism (being called a coconut many times) ,.... but didn't all the guru's break/push the bearers?


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## CaramelChocolate (Oct 5, 2006)

jaga said:


> .... i don't care what you do behind closed doors


This is the type of attitude that breeds homophobia. You do not want to see a same sex couple holding hands on street because you just can't handle the concept that a man could love another man. People with hypersexualised mentalities reject homosexuality because whenever they think about it they imagine sexual positions and images of two men. Realising this does not turn them on, they develop a deep hatred for gay people.
In the case of jaga, he seems to be saying that being gay is half ok, as long as it not brough to a social level - basically he cannot be bothered to fight for a minority which isn't himself.



It is so lovely to see in countries like Britain where you see so many minorities such as Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Afro-Carribeans, Eastern Europeans. That racism is abhorred yet they do not care about other minorities being hated, even though you will find that gay people feel they can relate to the hatred these minorites face. Homophobia is much worse than racism.

The British government wants to stop racism as opposed to homophobia when Britain has always been a multi-sexuality country and only for about 100 years been a mutli-faith, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural country.

Well, that's the SCUM that Britain in particular is. I will not go on to the rest of the world... Please excuse my little rant.


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## hpsingh (Oct 20, 2006)

many people willl find that no sikhs(i think) are homosexual


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## kaur-1 (Oct 20, 2006)

hpsingh said:


> many people willl find that no sikhs(i think) are homosexual



:}{}{}: No "Practising" Sikhs that is.


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## hpsingh (Oct 20, 2006)

i take it u know of non practising sikhs which are homosexual ???
non practising sikhs arent really joined in with sikh society so that probably what leads them away


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## CaramelChocolate (Oct 21, 2006)

hpsingh said:


> i take it u know of non practising sikhs which are homosexual ???
> non practising sikhs arent really joined in with sikh society so that probably what leads them away


There is a homosexual Granthi in north England.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 21, 2006)

How is a life of a hetrosexual  affected by a homosexual? Not a bit. Sikhi doesnot preach tolerance but something much better, acceptance. Tolerance is a controlled disdain whereas acceptance is the first step to understanding.   Gurbani is based on the latter not on the former.

Tejwant


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 22, 2006)

Gurfateh

There are a few instance in nihungs regarding homosexualtiy as it was mentioned in Sanatan Sikhi.

Anyway das did talk about homosexual or lesbians to Mahant of Nirmala order to which das is associated.As per Mahant Ji,they are welsomce in Dera and to cary out devtotion and reserach.In general sexaulity is discourged in Nirmalas,Be it hetro or homeo.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 4, 2006)

<<In general sexaulity is discourged in Nirmalas,Be it hetro or homeo.>>

reason?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 4, 2006)

Gurfateh

Well in them it is prefered to be a calibate though many great of them are maried.yet more emphsis is givne to other Chkaras or gland then Swasdhyan Chakra used to reproduce.

So generaly in males seman production can be stoped or say it gets out whith urine,But not lust is left.

in Nihungs things are differnt.

It is more general things probbly.


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## jasi (Nov 4, 2006)

dear readers.

homosexuality is not a God given attitude . Sex is with a women called sex. if you do out your thing by hand or any other places in the bodyor between breast or mouth or ear ring ,place made for going to tolilet is one 's choce .

it is matter of choices. we can not call it sex by releasing your self by hand or other places other than proper places. the only where sex is counted wh were it meant to be for pruducing further generations.

even animals knows where to go!. that is where is the big difference is. God has given you complete freedom to do whatever you want to do and reap the cosequences for it. period. no debate but do not publicized it. all people should understand and must accept the choices one made as long as it is not imposing on the rest of society what they are doing .

recoginition of marriages do not make any sense at all. if the choices are made to be togther. fine . there should be no law existing against that .

that is the end of this public debate on homosexuality regardless of any relegion. it should not be called homosexuality but abnormal with false pretances having a sex .what is so big achievement if you are homo . you are having a diffrent thoughts or life style fine and the society accept your choices then why complain and getting recognitions in the justice to be recognizd as married staus.Marriages are based on men and women for the purpose ofhealthy living and proper acts and produce the coming generations.if you have a better explanations please reply me back.

jaspi


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 5, 2006)

isn't this going against nature ?

<Well in them it is prefered to be a calibate though many great of them are maried.yet more emphsis is givne to other Chkaras or gland then Swasdhyan Chakra used to reproduce.

So generaly in males seman production can be stoped or say it gets out whith urine,But not lust is left.
>


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 6, 2006)

Jaspi - I refuse to even acknowledge your argument since you have not shown awareness of anybody elses.

Personally I think celibacy is a Hindu thing. If Sikhs are doing this then it is clearly a Hindu influence. Originally celibacy in Hinduism was 8-fold but these days it has come to mean 'no spilling of the semen'. Celibacy is an austerity which means to renounce the world which is pricisely what Sikhism is against.

Furthermore, Sikhs need to ignore Catholic influences. You cannot say that because something is natural it is moral and something that is unnatural is immoral. Especially with homosexuality as people debate that homosexuality is unnatural REGARDLESS of the empirical evidence that homosexuality exists in every species/age/gender/nationality/religion/race/country/culture/animal.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

Gurfateh

they have some other reason.

They had to trevel a lot in past as Ramat Akhara or roaming instituion.as per that they use to carry out preaching from village to village.

they were actuly permanetly nomands(Gurus on the other hand had family).That could be one of the reason that they did not made family at all.

Again there are and were mnay nirmalas who were married.and in thier tradition calibate was in no way higher then married rather some time opposite could be done more when they interacted with Nihungs.

If ads is not mistaken unlike it is in Islam,that all are forced to married,here if some one does not want to get marry then Gurmat does not oppse that,.Gurmat does says both in verse unto St. Kabeer and in Akalustat,that reamaing calibate is no way to get God else eunuch could have gpt salvations.

Yet fi some one finds it more convientent to have a life without wife as he will be treveiling the whole life to preach and does not want wife to suffer being stay away from husband,it could be one reason.But females also are preachers in Nirmalas but could be more married.

anyway it is strictly told to not to go to jungle away from socity but serve with all you have by staying within socity.

Yes many people can do this even with own family but many may not be capable to do both the task.

Then comoing to lust.Yes it is not as per nature.But people claim that by this life people tend to get supernatural powers.But in case of our Bhai Randheer Singh ji,he got those powers with married life also.


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## BaljeetSingh (Nov 9, 2006)

We all know Homosexuality is destined to be extinct. I am not sure why we are spending so much time and energy on discussing something which by definition is bound to go extinct.


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 10, 2006)

BaljeetSingh said:


> We all know Homosexuality is destined to be extinct. I am not sure why we are spending so much time and energy on discussing something which by definition is bound to go extinct.


 
'We all know'... who are you referring to? Definately not me so it's not _all_... I'd like to see your evidence for this please. As far as I'm aware homosexuality has been around since the stone ages.


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## jasi (Nov 10, 2006)

as homosexuality is here since ages so as the bad deeds. it gives no logic to continue the same path today when we entering 21 century. we have to wake up with the idea of understanding more each other than carrying all kinds anti-social behvior.

leaders shouls forget the ideas of colonizing again other country who are striving to grow out of their poverty and being imposed democracy value on them . democracy comes with education not wars.


jaspi


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 10, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das discussed this thing with one docter ,who is our member DRkhalsa on this issue.As perhim,himosexuality may not be the so called fault of the one who indulges in that.

further thing over here is that as per some medical theories over which research is been done.It may be due to configuration of ones brain or body.


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 10, 2006)

See attachment


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## jasi (Nov 10, 2006)

Configure of brain should have never occured if one person is not associated with that kind of friends whoes brain has been already configured. So the solution is like "a man is known by the societ he keeps"

Best solution is to follow the Guru teachings or amke your friends having no problems especially avoid those who disrespect the parents. Remeber the TRINITY . 1/3 of our soul belongs to the spirit and 2/3 belongs to the parents. If you do not belive in trinity then all kinds if immorals deeds will follow you, off course it is abnormal !you do not have to be genoius to understand that. it is abnormal.good luck.

jaspi


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## jasi (Nov 10, 2006)

this the answer. i m happy to write your inside out how you are brainwashed or committed to your life style . remember thia when you will get little bit old and stay with the same man. you have shown your chracter to all of us by example of animals which they were never blessed withsame itellegence to manuplate thing what please us .

well i have no more comments.you are your own like all others.all majority is wrong and you are right sir. law in canada respect you the same.one day you certanly wake up but it will be too late. remeber God loves every one if there is sinners existing. but the old story says"what you so so shall you reap"

jaspi


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 11, 2006)

Who exactly has brainwashed me? I wouldn't call being gay a lifestyle, you are more wrapped up in personal homophobic prejudices rather than seeing homosexuality as wrong. I do not like your condescending 'holier than thou' tone. Nobody is perfect - learn some humility.
Your trinity PROVES your values are a result of culture and not of SIKHISM. God is the owner of our souls and no-one else. I don't know why parents have a Godly status, as per Sikhism we will all perish and are all contingent, and that includes our parents. That does not mean one should disrespect one's parents, but callling them the OWNERS of their children's soul? How illogical.
I really do not feel your insulting and offensive tone is helping. You have not taken on board anybody else's views/comments in this debate.


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## jasi (Nov 11, 2006)

by the way i do understand your ignorance and not ready to listen the right music to your ear,name of "mother"sometime got a staus as first god in this world. no one can replace the mother's love. that is what i meant. 

secondly for your information it is said  by Bhai Gurdas Ji in our scriptures  to this extreem."yeh man hoi yarni (chracterless)kion putar patare ,jeh gaoo(cow) nen manak(Hira) niglia pet par na mare"

explanation in sikhism is to this extreem that if even one's mother is a keeping a lover outside her marriage which is not right thing to accept but even then son has not right to critisize her.it is said what He (Bhai Gurdas JI) meant was only how high respect mother should have.

in christinity also in the ten commandments say  "thy shall respect your mother and father" all i am doing is to make you understand that i am not the one who make these comments . it is said by by all scriptures. ofcourse we do not like many time when someone try to show the right ways to lead a good life.i am just expressing my feeling on very broad way thinking and keeping my empathy with people who are going through as you are.

you can only express what you know other than when you do not understand ,you get angry. it takes time to get mature to understand these things in life. what you are today  has built from the day you were  born has effected your growth today under different influences of parents ,sibblings,schools,friends. you can imagin if there had been  bad influences that is built in you. you have to slowly undo those permanents effect by taking Nam or start looking after your mother and father if they are in good state of mind.

i am very braodminded person and believe in that if man can make a lots of wrong judgments under the influences of his peers or circumstances still can improve his life styles by following right steps.

good luck.  

i am sorry if i offended your feelings  in any way. this is a forum where we can share our thoughts according to our itellegence . may be you are more wiser than me.

jaspi


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 12, 2006)

Gurfateh



jaspi said:


> configure of brain should have never occured if one person is not associated with that kind of friens who brain has been already configued. so the solution is like "a man is know by the societ he keeps"
> 
> best solution is to follow the Guru teachings or amke your friends having no problems especially avoid those who disrespect the parents. remeber the TRINITY . 1/3 of our soul belongs to the spirit and 2/3 belongs to the parents. if you do not belive in trinity then all kinds if immorals deeds will follow you, ofcourse it is abnormal !you do not have to be genoius to understand that. it is abnormal.good luck.
> 
> jaspi


 

Some guys are genetically Black.so nothing can be daone to make them white and it rather unatrual to make them white with plastic surgury as it is in case of michal Jackson.

Guru tells us to saty off the Lust and that includes one with own wife also.


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## kds1980 (Nov 12, 2006)

the following is the danger of openly allowing homosexuality

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/411736.cms?headline=It\\\'s~now~cool~to~be~gay~on~Gujarat~campus

AHMEDABAD: Gone are the days when 'bird-watching' was the only obsession on campus hostels. Who needs babes when the young get experimental with people of their own sex? 

Playing homosexual games, ragging along gay lines and even chance homosexual encounters by otherwise straight boys and girls have become commonplace in hostels as homosexuality is fast ceasing to be a dirty word. Ask boys in the Gujarat University hostel and they tell you how one of the most popular party games for guys is one where they compare and feel body parts. 

A student of NHL Medical College narrates how he gets patted by senior students all the time. "I like pursuing girls but have to deal with guys hitting on me all the time. A resident doctor once tried to get up close inside the operation theatre. It's getting part of hostel life now," he says. 

A recent study by BJ Medical College students titled 'Profiling sexual attitude and practices of youth' conducted on 200 students in premier colleges like National Institute of Design (NID), LD Engineering College, among others, revealed that 7% conceded they were bisexuals. 

Of the respondents, 38% boys and 44% girls said homosexuality was normal. Around 50% conceded their behaviour would not change if they came to know a person was homosexual. Significantly, 75% said homosexuality should be included in formal sexual education. 

For some, it gets serious. A student leader told TOI that recently a girl from a reputed university in Ahmedabad consumed poison after she was forced to live away from her same-sex partner in her hostel room. 

Apparently, her parents had brought about the separation. "Students in hostels are more likely to accept a different sexual orientation these days even if society doesn't. 

Homosexuality has become more acceptable," agrees Vinay Tomar, Ahmedabad city president, National Students' Union of India. 

"The youth are basically getting more experimental. Most of the homosexual encounters in the young have roots in experiments and not in pathological homosexuality," says psychiatrist Hansal Bhachech.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
if homosexuality become's fashion then even heterosexual will get involve in it.


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## max314 (Nov 12, 2006)

Guru Nanak did encourage family life, and it's obvious that heterosexual relationships are more condusive to creating a sustainable society.

Nevertheless, it's not a forced imposition.  I think that if one made a lifestyle choice, no-one can condemn them for that.  If someone feels unable to engage in a heterosexual relationship and can only engage in homosexual relationships, then who can anyone be to judge?

Again, it's all about tolerating peoples' differences, and the Guru Granth Sahib values that one singular humanitarian principle above all else.


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## max314 (Nov 12, 2006)

kds1980 said:


> the following is the danger of openly allowing homosexuality
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/411736.cms?headline=It\\\'s~now~cool~to~be~gay~on~Gujarat~campus
> 
> ...




Like any movement, becoming too extreme in something can be highly detremental.

It's quite true that even heterosexual people are being unfairly encouraged to constantly question their sexuality.

If someone is naturally homosexual, then I believe that society should allow for it.

But to _physically encourage_ homosexuality will only result in numbers of otherwise-heterosexual people becoming confused by the publicity into thinking that they too are homosexual.


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## max314 (Nov 12, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Guru tells us to saty off the Lust and that includes one with own wife also.



How can you have kids with your wife if you can't even get it up?

Guru says that lust should be _controlled_, not _vanquished_.  It should be _used_, and not that it starts using _you_ instead.

Don't go overboard and engage in marital rape, for God's sake, but having a sexually active lifestyle with your life partner is one of the things in life we're allowed to enjoy.  That's why it's there, so long as you keep boundaries.


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## kds1980 (Nov 12, 2006)

<<If someone is naturally homosexual, then I believe that society should allow for it.>>

again the question is who will decide whether someone is naturally homosexual or not.there is craze in young generation to follow trend and if in societies like india it become trend then young generation will foolishly follow
it which results in spreading of aids and other stds.our society do provide protection against heterosexual relations like a girl and boy cannot live in hostel room prison cell etc.but no such protection is there for homosexual behaviour.you have to share a room with your own sex.
also bully type of persons will force others to induldge in homosexual activity.
just for fun or to humilate others
this is already happening in india when in ragging new students are sometimes forced to induldge in homosexual activity by their seniors.
so that's why i beleive homosexuality should not be openly allowed .
naturaly homosexuals should do their activity behind closed doors


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 13, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das agree to Bhai Max Ji,

what das meant here is something deeper.What you said over there is not the lust but sex.Guru did not forbade sex with wife.But yet Guru tell us to not to have lust which is out of five vices.

Lust means that thinking self as an entity and wife as an entity and Kam or Lust to get plasure from her.

When we get Anand Karaj,we are given spritual verses.That tells us just that after wedlock,we do not have to forget that groom(God) is for all brides(spirits) and all have to marry with same.So do not go after too muck love after worldly things say wife in this case.


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## jasi (Nov 13, 2006)

we all know what  Guru Nanak Dev Ji 's thoughts are about equailty of all genders but here we are talking about one's deeds after your birth when you are grown up . no one is born gay or homosexual.
it is one's deeds. you are free to do any thing but do as a human being what is normal like majority of other your being.


"what you so shall you reap"

you have to follow the right path not what your peers whose brain is configurerated by their peers. top of that no one is stopping you or unaccepting your life style under any democratic governments today then why there is  so much publicity to effect other growing young kids. what marriage ? you can not use of marriage word here .marriage ia among women and a man where the instiution were set up reproductions of human being. oh yeh that is verbal thoughts like i am married to this idea etc to some thing you love  to do bur not doing sex with man to man . 

there are more important things in  life which can be  contributed more towards other healthy thinkings. 

this is not a priority that less than 1% people followed this path to live their private life.it is sickning  to go where one is  going for a sex (a place made for toilet). so unhygenic which gives a perfect chance to have a HIV.

think positive .do not get in false propoganda. there are more situations in the world to be recognized such as poverty. homosexuality flourishes where there is lots of poverty and frusteration or where there is lots of richness exist.


jaspi 





max314 said:


> Guru Nanak did encourage family life, and it's obvious that heterosexual relationships are more condusive to creating a sustainable society.
> 
> Nevertheless, it's not a forced imposition. I think that if one made a lifestyle choice, no-one can condemn them for that. If someone feels unable to engage in a heterosexual relationship and can only engage in homosexual relationships, then who can anyone be to judge?
> 
> Again, it's all about tolerating peoples' differences, and the Guru Granth Sahib values that one singular humanitarian principle above all else.


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## jasi (Nov 13, 2006)

what ever you have mentioed is ok. remeber God never created homosexual but it has been alsway one's choice to lead thier lives. do not bring this topic on this sikh forum. it has nothing to with this issue to discuss which is wrong deed on the first place . 

"what you so ,so shall you reaps".

 it is all one's deeds. there is no one who is stopping all homosexuals activtities in any democratic society. this behavier of homosexulaity is found mostly in the stages of poverty or rich society , or from one's  peers whose brain is already configured. frusteration.

so do what one is free to do. 

it is not a new to indulge in sex with opposit sex .frusteration to satisfy one 's ego or escapaing to easy way is not he way to alter normal doings. it had been in the society from the begning now why so much publicized to promote wrong doing.we never cocenterated to redicate the world poverty so we can have a better socity. poverty generate all kinds of abnormal deed among the society. biggest resons of all criminal activties,illletracy,relegion fanatasism ,famins and other problems.  

let the majority to continue their life as nature taught them to do the sex where you suppose to do.


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## max314 (Nov 13, 2006)

kds1980 said:


> <<If someone is naturally homosexual, then I believe that society should allow for it.>>
> 
> again the question is who will decide whether someone is naturally homosexual or not.there is craze in young generation to follow trend and if in societies like india it become trend then young generation will foolishly follow
> it which results in spreading of aids and other stds.our society do provide protection against heterosexual relations like a girl and boy cannot live in hostel room prison cell etc.but no such protection is there for homosexual behaviour.you have to share a room with your own sex.
> ...



Well, there you go.

I think it's obvious where lines should be drawn.

If a person insists that they are gay and can't help being any other way, then there should be complete acceptance for it.  No-one deserves to be outcast just because there's something different about them.


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## max314 (Nov 13, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Das agree to Bhai Max Ji,
> 
> ...



Taken in context, whereby women had little say by societal means, it would seem to me that such verses are more to keep males from raping their new wives on their wedding night and to be...well...gentle.


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## max314 (Nov 13, 2006)

jaspi said:


> we all know what  Guru Nanak Dev Ji 's thoughts are about equailty of all genders but here we are talking about one's deeds after your birth when you are grown up . no one is born gay or homosexual.



Unless you have a real authority to support that, I don't think that's a fair statement.



> it is one's deeds. you are free to do any thing but do as a human being what is normal like majority of other your being.
> 
> 
> "what you so shall you reap"



Naturally.  But let's be careful not to confuse or overlap separate issues.



> you have to follow the right path not what your peers whose brain is configurerated by their peers. top of that no one is stopping you or unaccepting your life style under any democratic governments today then why there is  so much publicity to effect other growing young kids. what marriage ? you can not use of marriage word here .marriage ia among women and a man where the instiution were set up reproductions of human being. oh yeh that is verbal thoughts like i am married to this idea etc to some thing you love  to do bur not doing sex with man to man .
> 
> there are more important things in  life which can be  contributed more towards other healthy thinkings.
> 
> ...




Homosexuality has been around for thousands of years, and homosexual behaviour is not exclusive to the human race.  To say that it's not intended by God is like claiming you have an insight into God's 'thoughts', which would be little short of blasphemy.

Whilst I agree that the mass-popularising of homosexuality is wrong for a number of reasons, I don't agree with suppressing people who decide that a particular choice of lifestyle is most suitable for them to live a satisfying and fulfilling life.

Also, there's nowhere in _gurbani_ that says that having anal sex is in any way wrong.

It's quite important to separate one's opinions on life from _gurbani_.

Ultimately, no-one should impose their values upon other people.  That includes both hetero and homosexuals.


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## max314 (Nov 13, 2006)

jaspi said:


> what ever you have mentioed is ok. remeber God never created homosexual...



See, this is the statement that continues to irk me.

Despite being grossed out by the thought of homosexual activity, just like I'm grossed out by the idea of _halal_ meat or even certain peoples' views on Sikkhism, that doesn't mean that I have an exclusive insight into God's intentions.

As I said in the previous post, this would be blasphemy.



> do not bring this topic on this sikh forum. it has nothing to with this issue to discuss which is wrong deed on the first place.



Well, it's "wrong" according to you, and if you don't want to discuss it, you don't have to click on the thread.

The tagline of the site is "Think Discuss Share Learn Evolve".  I don't think that an issue as culturally prominent as homosexuality is necessarily beyond any self-proclaimed 'open-minded' discussion forum.



> "what you so ,so shall you reaps".





> it is all one's deeds. there is no one who is stopping all homosexuals activtities in any democratic society. this behavier of homosexulaity is found mostly in the stages of poverty or rich society , or from one's  peers whose brain is already configured. frusteration.
> 
> so do what one is free to do.
> 
> ...




Heh...you know, it sounds to me as if you'd pick up a giant _jutthi_ and squash every gay person like a bug if you had the opportunity 

Wait...isn't that called 'fascism'...?


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 13, 2006)

Regarding the topic of forced homosexuality. Don't make me laugh. Society is forced to be straight. Look how many kids are married off in some cultures to the OPPOSITE SEX as a child. Heterosexual people, seem to me, so perverted that they want to ENCOURAGE another person's sexual desire to be the same as their own!
Even living in a country like Britain where things seem liberal homosexuality is not looked upon very well. The most popular insult for children is 'gay' as homosexuality is seen as a negative and bad thing and their is still a process of coming out since everyone assumes you are straight unless you say otherwise. People will ask about your girlfriend if you are a boy and boyfriend if you are a girl unless you specifically say 'I am gay' making you feel abnormal, like an outsider or something beyond society's capacity or intelligence.
No heterosexual has the right to say homosexuality is a choice until they have understood the ins and outs of being a homosexual, which someone like jaspi is not prepared to do.
The media plays into the hands of homophobes like jaspi, lets be honest, most newspaper columists/editors have agendas and prejudices. If a writer has a negative stance on something, do you think s/he will want to represent it positively?
Please remember this is not about the discussion of: the acts of the people who are attracted to the same sex such as permissibility of promiscuity/polygamy. We are discussing attraction to the same sex. If you accept homosexuality the world will not fall apart, you can set moral guidelines as you please but please don't associate homosexuality with promiscuity directly. 
Even if there is evidence that the percentage of promiscuous gay people is greater than heterosexuals then heterosexuals are to blame. Once you realise you a homosexual, you realise you ARE something that is outside 'the rules'. Yet you can't change. So a homosexual wonders what rules of society/culture/religion are right since the homosexual one was completely wrong. If religious people and society accepted gay people there would not be such a suicide rate as gay people might feel a little normal rather than a worthless peice of dirt, for something as insignificant as their innate sexual desire.
Let us be realistic, there are sinful people and pious/moral people in every group. Indians may think they have morals, but many have their dirty little secret... I personally don't agree with lying.


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## CaliforniaSeeker (Nov 13, 2006)

As gay and transgendered friends of mine have said, "If this were a voluntary choice, do you think I'd really *choose *to make myself a target of discrimination, prejudice, and violence?"

I think everybody should be judged by the same standards, whether they're gay, straight, bi, asexual, polyamorous or anything else: Does this person do their best to live an honest, honorable life? Do they live up to their commitments? Are they working to become a better person and make the world a better place?

Aside from that, if everybody involved is a sane, consenting adult, it's not my business what they do in their bedroom, any more than it's their business what I do in mine.


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## H_Singh (Dec 13, 2006)

If someone follows Sikhi to the word, then what does it matter what he/she does in there household.  It is not the concern of anyone. Sikhi preaches tolerance, equality and acceptance.  Many of us, including myself, may have been brought up on the prejuidices of other cultures, religions or faiths, but not one of us has the right to judge another, until we have attained perfection ourselves.  Sikhi scripture does not address homosexuality but it does address equality, tolerance and acceptance, so what do we go with?  Societies norms?  Cultural norms?  Absolutely not, we go by Gurus words the tenants of the Sikh faith.  

As for it being lust, I completely disagree, being a homosexual does not mean it is out of lust, it can be genuine love, just like love between a man and a woman.  Love between two men, or two woman is not addressed by Sikhi, for someone to manipulate or draw conclusion from the Shri Guru Granth Sahib would be incorrect, and would lead us down the same path as other scriptures e.g. the bible.  Where all the meanings are interpreted based on what we "think" they mean, and we can see the end result of that first hand.  Does being gay prevent you anymore than a heterosexual person becoming one with God, no I don't think it does, a God of acceptance, accepts all that follow his path.  This is my opinion.


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## paapi_banda (Dec 13, 2006)

Kandola said:


> Whats are your thoughts on Homosexuality and Sikhi?
> 
> It could be either way.
> 
> ...


 
:rofl!!:  thanx for making my day...  

oye  ek gal te das ki admi bacha paida kar sakda:rofl!!: :rofl!!:


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 23, 2006)

Homosexuals can not be Sikh but they humans and can choose to live any way they want as long as they are not Sikh. If the person wants to be Sikh, then the person must be heterosexual.

Some people are born with evil minds who love nothing but killing. Is that right? Aren't those types of people put in jail?

Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas only talk about love between man and woman. Soul is genderless but the physical body is not. Physical aspect can never be ignored.

Guru Sahib told Udasis to go and live a life as a family member with children.
Gays can't have children.

God made mother and father, husband and wife. Who is wife and who is husband in a gay relationship?

If someone loves someone from same gender, it is attachment (moh) and also kaam (lust). Both are bad.

As for translation of laava, English translations don't give the deeper meaning and only word translations are received.

Another thing, all Guru Sahib married and told Sikhs to marry also. Gurbani uses husband and wife concept again and again. Homo is never used because it isn't Gurmat.

It is mental state regardless if it is natural or acquired thus it can be changed if the person wants. If the person only loves God then why can't the person overcome homo feelings and become straight?

Not only that, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji said "Aurat Imaan" as stated in many historical references.
This happened when a celibate sadhu asked why Guru Ji has married.

So it is very clear that Guru Sahib only accepted male and female marriages and this tradition must continue. It can never be changed to suit some people who fail to overcome their moh and kaam.

I will say it once again, please don't take Amrit and join the Khalsa Panth unless you are striaght.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 23, 2006)

*smilMgI sMbMD aqy gurmiq*​ *iesu qn mn mDy mdn cor *] *ijin igafn rqnu ihir lIn mor ]{pMnf-1194}*​ inafry siqgurU nfnk sfihb jI dI inafrI guriswKI ivc vI sm-ilMgI sLfdIaF bfry iCWVI crcf qoN icMqfqur kuJ suihrd gur isWK swjx gurmiq df pwK ilKx dI dfs qoN mMg krdy af rhy hn ijs qoN pRyrq dfsrf ies lyK rfhIN bbyk ivcfrrF leI 'Klk mih* "Kfilku-" *dy drbfr ivc hfjLr hY:-
1- siqgurU gRMQ sfihb jI dy 1161 aMk dy ienHF pfvn bcnF dI-*"bfbf afdm kAu ikCu ndir idKfeI ] Auin BI iBsiq GnyrI pfeI ]"{1161}-*aslIXq jfxn leI kIqI pVqfl qoN mhfn kosL dy 98 sPLy qy ies pRkfr iliKaf hoieaf hY:-" *bfeIbl *aqy *kurfn* (-eIsfeI aqy ieslfm mjLhbF dIaF Drm pusqkF) anusfr sB qoN pihlf mnuwK ijs nUM KLdf ny afpxI sLkl df imtI qoN bxfieaf, Auh bfbf afdm (Adm) sI. bfeIbl anusfr jd bfbf afdm sON igaf qd KLudf ny Aus dI iek pwslI leI aqy Aus qoN iek iesqRI rcI jo *" hwvf'"* (Eve) aKvfeI. rwb ny ies joVy nUM *adn **(Eden) *bfgL ivc rwK ky hukm idwqf ik qusIN eyQy afnMd nfl rho aqy Pl afid pdfrQ KfAu pr iewk KLfs bUtf dws ky hdfieq kIqI ik ies df Pl kdy nf Kfxf. sLYqfn ny af ky afdm aqy hwvf nUM vrgLlfieaf ijs qoN AunHF ny Auh vrjq Pl KfDf, bfgL qoN ies aprfD bdly kwZy gey aqy Kudf qoN sRfp (sLfp) imilaf ik afdm dI aOlfd myhnq krky gujLfrf kry aqy mOq df isLkfr hovy. afdm dI Aumr bfeIbl ivc 930 vrHy ilKI hY[[[[[[[. Auprokq dohF ivsLfl Drmf ivc prclq ivsLvfsL anusfr ajokI mnuwK jfqI Ausy joVy dI sMqfn df psfrf hY. Bfv, mnuwK qy iesqRI df joVf rwb ny afp bxfieaf sI. kI gurmiq qoN vI iesqRI mrd df joVf rwbI hukm hI iswD hY ? gurU bfxI df aDfr kQf khfxIaF nhIN hY. gurmiq qF-"*hAu afphu boil n jfxdf mY kihaf sBu hukmfAu jIAu "*]{763} Bfv ielfhI *hukmfAu* hI gurmiq hY, aQvf gurmiq ivcoN rwbI 'hukm' qoN bfhrI koeI gl nhIN imldI . afAu pihlF gurmiq dy Aus "hukmfAu" jF "hukm" bfry gurmiq ivcfrF sFJIaF kr leIey :-
2- *rwbI hukm-*gurU gRMQ sfihb jI dI pihlI anUpm bfxI *jpu jI* dI pihlI pAuVI ivclf bVf arQ BrpUr pRsLnoqr -*ikv sicafrf hoeIaY ikv kUVY qutY pfil ]? *sMsfrI mfieaf rUpI JUT df prdf ikvyN dUr hovy aqy sicafry ikvy bxIey *?*-AuWqr*-(1)-hukim rjfeI clxf nfnk iliKaf nfil ]1*]-Bfv, muwZ qoN ieh inXm nfl hI bixaf afieaf ik (*hukm *dy anusfrI rihx nfl dUrIaF imt ky nyVqf bx jfieaf krdI hY). kI rwbI hukm vI AuvyN df hI hY ijvyN srkfrF qoN aQvf vzwikaF qoN jLbfnI jF ilKqI hukm (afdysL) imldy hn ? pr agMm, agocr, ajnmy, ijs aibnfsLI akfl purK df-*"rUpu n ryK n pMc qq Tfkur aibnfs "]{*816}ijs rwb jI df rUp rMg aid pMj qwqI vjUd kuJ vI nhIN Aus qoN jLbfnI *jF *ilKqI hukm pRfpq hox df kI arQ ? sgoN ieh hukm qF ajyhf hY ijs qoN:-*hukmI* *hovin afkfr* *hukmu* *n kihaf jfeI ]{*jpu-pAuVI 2*} aQvf-"pfqfl purIaf loa afkfrf ] iqsu ivic vrqY hukmu krfrf ] **hukmy sfjy hukmy Zfhy hukmy myil imlfiedf ]"{1060} Bfv, *sMsfr dy idsdy axidsdy sfry akfr Ausy hukm qoN bxdy ZihMdy, imldy ivCuVdy af rhy hn aqy Auh hukm hY vI kihxI kQnI qoN pry.-gurU PLurmfn-*"qyrf hukmu n jfpI kyqVf iliK n jfxY koie ] jy sAu sfier mylIaih iqlu n pujfvih roie"]*{53}-Bfvy sYNkVy ilKfrI Xqn kr Qwkx, ilKq ivc nf af skx vfly Aus rwbI hukm bfry anumfn hI lgdy af rhy hn, Aus df TIk TIk kQn koeI nhIN kr skdf. pr gurdyv jI dy ieh PLurmfn vI axgOly nhIN kIqy jf dkdy ?-*"nfnk hukmu n buJeI* *aMDf khIaY soie "]{*955} aqy *"jb lgu hukmu n bUJqf qb hI lAu duKIaf] gur imil hukmu pCfixaf qb hI qy suKIaf "]{*400}-spwsLt sMkyq hY ik BfvyN kihx kQn qoN bfhrf hI hY pr Aus rwbI hukm df sfr jF isDFqk vjUd jLrUr smiJaf buiJaf jf skdf hY. Ausy aQfh apfr hukm nUM smJ buwJ ky Aus dy anusfrI hox qoN hI anUpm pRfpqIaF df vI ijLkr-A-"*hukim mMinaY hovY prvfxu qf KsmY kf mhlu pfiesI "]*{471}-*a-[" nfnk hukmY jo buJY so Plu pfey scu "][*{960}- *e-"hukmu pCfxY bUJY scu soie "]4]*{232}- *s*-"*sfcI drgh pUC n hoie ] **mfny hukmu sIJY dir soie ]6]*{832} aqy pMjvF*-h-"gurmuiK hoie su hukmu pCfxY mfnY hukmu smfiedf]{1036}* Auprokq sLbd ivcfr qoN spwsLt sMkyq imldf hY ik rwbI hukm dI pCfx hI Aus hukmI dfqfr nfl zUMGI jfx pCfx dI pRfpqI hY. 'ibwpRn kI rIq qoN scu df mfrg'- pusqk mflf ivc rwbI hkm dI gl keI QfeIN afeI hY pr CyvyN Bfg ivc Aucycy qOr qy ies hukm nUM smJx smJfAux df ivsLysL Xqn kIqf hoieaf hY. gurU sLbdF dy aDfr qy *"hukm" *dI ivafiKaf ilKx leI pUrI pusqk vI Gwt ho skdI hY. asF *smilMgI sfdIaF* vfly muwK ivsLy vl vI afAuNyxf hY. ies leI keI sflF dI zUMGI Koj qoN-rwbI hukm bfry dfsry dy pwly jo KLYr peI Aus df sMKyp rUp ieAuN hY:-gurU bfxI ivc kul 11 *Eleven *-rUpF ivc ijMnI vfrI iliKaf hukm pd dfsry dI jfxkfrI ivc afieaf, vyrvf ies pRkfr hY* -1-hukm=4, -2-hukmu=238, -3- hukmyyyy=98,-4-hukmY=29, -5- hukim=88,-6- hukmI=41-7-hukmo=4[-8-hukmhu=1,-9-hukmf=1-10- hukmfvY=1, aqy-11vF-hukmfAu=1- joV= 508 . {not:- cfhvfn swjx afpxf EMail Address Byj dyx-* gurU sLbdF dI sUcI puwj jfvygI*}*
10 srUpI siqgurU nfnk sfihb jI dy anuBv ivc afey hukmfAu df muK Bfv Auh rwbI inXwm, ijs ielfhI isDFq dI ivafiKaf jpu jI dI dUjI pAuVI dI pihlI pMgqI qoN afrMB ho ky byaMq gurU sLbdF rfhI gurdyv jI ny sfnUM smJfAux df Xqn kIqf hoieaf hY. pRfikRqk inWXm rwbI hukm hI hY., Bfxf, rjLf Aus 'hukm' dy hI rUp hn. Ausy hukm dI atwlqf ivc bwiJaf jIvF df jnm mrx ho irhf hY -"*jMmxu mrxf hukmu pCfxu ]{*412}*-*
3- *smilMgI sMbMD:-' *afpxf afpf rc ky Aus afpy qoN rcI apfr isRsLtI df kfr ivhfr clf rhy hukmI dy hukm bfry Auprokq ivcfr dy nfl hI ieh gurU hukm-:*"**logf, Brim n BUlhu BfeI ] Kfilku Klk, Klk mih Kfilku, pUir rihE sRb TFeI "]{1350}-ienHF *gurU bcnF anusfr sfzy leI jLrUrI hY ik asIN smilMgI sLfdIaF df mslf Ausy rwbI hukm qo imldIaF syDF qoN hl krIey:-eIsfeI qy ieslfm dy Dfrimk ivsLfvfs vflI bfbf afdm dI gfQf qoN ssfr dy bVy vzy Kyqr dy lpkF ivc bxy ivsLvfsL anusfr 'ajokf mnuwK' Ausy bfbf afdm (Adam) aqy hwvf (*Eve*) KLudfeI joVy df hI prvfr-psfrf hY. purfqn gRMQF qoN ieh toh vI imldI hY ik pihl pihlF mnuwK AunHF hI jMglI jfnvrF vFg Coty vwzy vwgF (JuMzF, toilaf) ivwc rihMdf sI ijnHF psLUaF pMKIaF ivc kyvl nr qy mdIn ivafhuqf joVy vFg iekwTy rihMdy af rhy hn. sfry psLU pMCIaF df aQvf jIv jMqUaF df joVf kfm sMBog KLfs KLfs ruqf dy KLfs idnf ivc kyvl bwcy pYdf krn leI hI krdy hn. apfr psfry vflI kudrq dy axigxq jIv jMqUaF ivc koeI joVf smilMgI vI huMdf afieaf hY ? aqy kI kdy munwKF dI brfdrI ivc vI smilMgI joiVaF ivc ivcrdy rihx df irvfj irhf hovy- ienHF sLMikaf bfry purfqn (jF nvIn) ieiqihfs ivcoN koeI sbUq nhIN imldf.
4-*gurmiq df pwK-*srbwq dy Bly dI kfmxf nfl ilKy gurmiq igafn ny iesqRI mrd dI sLfdI vfly igRhsqI jIvn nUM hI srb AuWqm mMinaf hY. pqI(mnuwK) pqnI (qIvIN) df joVy nUM hI rwbI rjLf drsf rhy gurUbfxI-igafn dy aQfh BMzfry ivcoN kyvl vMngI mfqR kyvl iqMn gurU PLurmfn:-1"*Dn (-pqnI) ipr (-mrd-KLsm) mylu Bieaf pRiB afip imlfieaf rfm" *{af:m:3-439}--2-*Dn ipr mylfvf hoaf gurmqI mnu mfinaf ] *{770}-3-*Dn ipru eyih n afKIain bhin iekTy hoie ] eyk joiq duie mUrqI Dn ipru khIaY soie ]{*sU:m:3-788} eysy qrHF hI gurmiq ivc sMqfn AuqpqI df atwl rwbI inXwm-"*jYsy mfq ipqf ibnu bflu n hoeI ]{872}"* mfq ipq dohF df hoxf dws ky ipqf dI ibMd Bfv vIrj qy mfqf dy grB dI rkq qoN jIv inMmdy drsf rhy keI gurU PLurmfnF ivcoN kyvl Audfhrx mfqR gurU bcn:- 1-*rkqu ibMdu kir inMimaf agin Audr mJfir ]*{704} rkq=mf (mdIn) dy grB ivc Ausdy KLUn qoN inMmxf (bxnf). *ibMd*=ipqf (nr) df vIrj-2-*mfq ipqf sMjoig Aupfey rkqu ibMdu imil ipMzu (-dyh) kry ]*{1013} nr mdIn aQvf iesqRI mrd df joVf bnfAux qo kudrq df muwK Bfv sMsfr ivc keI pRkfr dIaF rOxkF Bry jIvn mrx df Kyz-mylf cldf rwKx qoN hI hY. sm-ilMgI joVf bWcf pYdf nhI kr skdf ieh kyvl kfm *Lust* iqRpqI ihq kyvl agLlfm rog shyV bihxf ? ajyhI soc rwbI nymF dy ankUl nhIN hY.
5- *motf pRsLn icwnH ?*-vzI hYrfnI hyY ik ijs mnuwK nUM-*(A)-* cMgy mfVy dI prK krky afpxy jIvn ivc soDF krdf rihx Xog (_jLmIr, b_wuDI, akl) idmfgL, aQvf inq nvIaF lfBdfiek kfZF (I*nventions*) krvf rhIaF kfmnfvF df BMzfr *‘mn’, ‘icq’* afid AucycIaF bKLsLsLF kIqIaF hoeIaF hn,-(a)-ieslfm ivc ijs mnuwK nUM "asLrPL-AuWl-mKLlUkfq ikhf igaf hY, (e)-aqy gurU PLurmfn-*avr join qyrI pinhfrI ] iesu DrqI mih qyrI iskdfrI *]{374}- Bfv, gurmiq ny qF mnwuK nUM sfrIaF jUMnf df srdfr mMinaf hY. iPr kI kfrn hY (kiQiq) 84 lwK jUMnF ivcoN inafrI sUJ bUJ vfly Ausy mnuwK dy hI afcrn ivc kudrq ivroDI ajyhf avYVfpn ?:-
*kfrnf df vyrvf- *idwlI dy hkIm bUalI sInf dy ilKy kok-sLfsqr ivc arQ BrpUr isiKaf dfiek dlIlF nfl smJfieaf hoieaf hY ik, iks Aumry iknHF nUM ikvyN smilMg sMbMD joVn dI afdq pYNdI hY aqy ies bd-afdq qo arogqf qy pYx vfly dUr-rs iBafnk iswty kI huMdy ? Ausy kok sLfsqr ivc ajyhy smilMgI kfm sbMDF nUM "*agLlfm rog*" iliKaf hY. ies rog df asl kfrn *by-lgLfm *(by-kfbU)hoeI kfm-agnI ilKI hY. mnuWK koloN jfn lyvf bVy nIc krm krvf rhy *‘kfm’* Sex bfry gurU bfxI dy PLurmfn-
(1)- *hy kfmM nrk ibsRfmM bhu jonI BRmfvxh ] icq hrxM qRY lok gMm´M jp qp sIl ibdfrxh ] alp suK aivq cMcl AUc nIc smfvxh ] qv BY ibmuMicq sfD sMgm Et nfnk nfrfiexh ]46]*{1358}
*Bfv arQ:-*mnuwK Bfvy ikzf vI jpI qpI qy AuWcI jLfq vflf hovy kfmdyv sBnF ƒ afpxy kfbU ivc krky ajyhy kfry krvfAuNdf js qoN jIvn nrkI duwKF df isLkfr bixaf rih ky gl sV jFdf hY. ies dI mfr qoN AuhI bcdf hY jo sfD gurU gRMQ sfihb jI dI sLbd-ivcfr-sMgiq qoN prmfqmf nfl zUMGI jx-pCfx bxf lYNdf hY .
(2)- *inmK kfm suafd kfrix koit idns duKu pfvih ] GrI muhq rMg mfxih iPir bhuir bhuir pCuqfvih ]1] aMDy cyiq hir hir rfieaf ] qyrf so idnu nyVY afieaf ]1] rhfAu ][[[4]5]127]{pMnf 403}*
*arQ:-*hy kfm-vfsnf ivc aMnHy hoey jIv ! (ieh ivkfrF vflf rfh Cwz, qy) pRBU-pfiqsLfh df ismrn kr . qyrf Auh idn nyVy af irhf hY (jdoN qUM ieQoN kUc kr jfxf hY) *.1.rhfAu. *hy aMnHy jIv ! QoVf ijqnf smf kfm-vfsnf dy suafd dI KLfqr (iPr) qUM byaMq idn duwK shfrdf hYN . GVI do GVIaF mOjF mfx ky ipwCoN muV muV pCuqFAuNdf hYN *.1.*
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*(a)- srhflI Tfxy *dy pRisD ngr dy iek kfm kuwTy nOjvfn ny afpxI ibrD dfdI jI nfl blfqkfr kIqf. kmjLor ishq ibRD mfqf ajyhf sdmf nf Jwl skI. post mfrtm krvfAux leI imrqk dyh nuM pulIs lY geI qy-*qn mn ivcly kfm ny blfqkfrI nojvfn dI ajyhI miq mfrI ik Aus ny Pfh lY ky afqm *afqm hwiqaf kr leI .
*(e)*-qrnqfrn qsIl dy hI ipMz dI dsvIN klfs dI ividafrQx bIbI dI lfsL Gr nyVy dy KUh ivcoN kZvf ky zffktrI jFc krvfeI qF Auh iqMn mhIinaf qoN grBvqI sI. pVqfl qoN iswD hoieaf ik bwcf Aus bIbI dy sky vIr df hI sI. jo vI Ausy KUhI ivc pY miraf. bykfbU hoey *kfmdyv* dy ajyhy inq nvyN kfry vfprdy af rhy hn. afqsLk, sUjLfk qy hor keI KLqrnfk kfm-rogF dI jVH-'*inmK kfm suafd kfrix koit idns duKu pfvih ]'* QuhVy smy df kfm cskf qbfhIaF df kfrn?*- *cMgy Bly GrfinaF dy sUJvfn aqy axKIly bicaf dI miq nUM kI hoieaf ?
(3) *iesu qn mn mDy mdn cor] ijin igafn rqnu ihir lIn mor ] mY anfQu pRB khAu kfih ] ko ko n ibgUqo mY ko afih ]1] mfDAu dfrun duKu sihE n jfie ] myro cpl buiD isAu khf bsfie]1]rhfAu]{1194}*
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 6- *smilMgI sMbMDF dy ivroDI sMkyq vfly guurU PLurmfn* :-
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*2- pr Dn, pr qn, pr kI inMdf, ien isAu pRIiq n lfgY ] sMqh sMgu sMq sMBfKnu hir kIrqin mnu jfgY ]2]{*674*} sMBfKnu*=gl bfq, guPLqgU, bfqcIq, bcn iblfs, gosLit.
*3- pr Dn pr qn pr qI inMdf pr apbfdu n CUtY ] afvf gvnu hoqu hY Puin Puin iehu prsMgu n qUtY ]{*971}
 apbfdu=dUjy nfl ivroD, dujy nfl JgVf.
 Auprokq iqnF hI gurU PLurmfnF ivc '*pr Dn pr qn*' pMkqI sFJI hY. qn df arQ ipMzf, srIr jF dyh hY . qn pd df Bfv iesqRI mrd dohF leI sfvF hY. gurmiq anusfr prfey (mrd dy jF iesqrI dy) qn vl mYlI njLr (kfm rucI vflI qkxI) df dosL prfieaf mfl Dn curfAux qul aQvf prfeI inMdf qul hoxf gurU gRMQ sfihb jI df PLqvf hY. inMdf bfry gurU PLurmfn-"*inMdf BlI iksY kI nfhI mnmuK mugD krMin ] muh kfly iqn inMdkf nrky Goir pvMin ]*"{755} spwsLt hY ik mnuwK nUM sMq sUrmf bxf rhy, srbwq dy Bly dI kfmnf sihq nfjLl hoey, srbsFJy gurmiq igafn ivc smilMgI sMbMDF nUM koeI QF nhIN hY.
 gurbKLsL isMG


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## ISDhillon (Dec 23, 2006)

> If the person wants to be Sikh, then the person must be heterosexual.



ok then doh!!



> Some people are born with evil minds who love nothing but killing. Is that right? Aren't those types of people put in jail?



uh no sikhism rejects duality therefore evil is a semitic concept, life places us in situations where one can commit murder why is that evil i might have killed you out of anger and anger alone not cos the devil is motivating me, sikhism rejects the idea of man-made justice, khalsa was enshrined to uphold mans conscience or bibek as form of day to day judgement of things, you have just made a joke of that by accepting evil which is the reason why india was plundered time and time again, the mughals saw kaffirrs as evil too, dwell on it a while.



> Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas only talk about love between man and woman. Soul is genderless but the physical body is not. Physical aspect can never be ignored.



why is youre mind besotted with the physical body because you are driven by kaam, i would seriously question whether you understand what love really is, why is it that homosexuals can live to gether without engaging in sodomy?, and it is nice that bhai gurdas talks about love between a men and a women, they also make references between the sexual antics of animals too does that me we should allow deers to be married in the gurdwara aswell have some sense. 



> Guru Sahib told Udasis to go and live a life as a family member with children.
> Gays can't have children.



gays can have children if they wanted dristhi jeevan means householder there is no emphasis on children hence you write " with children".



> God made mother and father, husband and wife. Who is wife and who is husband in a gay relationship?



why should there be either is see a blissfull union.

If someone loves someone from same gender, it is attachment (moh) and also kaam (lust). Both are bad.



> As for translation of laava, English translations don't give the deeper meaning and only word translations are received.



anand karaj is unique its only about the soul not bodies.  I have addressed these stupid assertions in my earlier post i suggest you take a day off from being hateful and read through my earlier posts.





> It is mental state regardless if it is natural or acquired thus it can be changed if the person wants. If the person only loves God then why can't the person overcome homo feelings and become straight?



why would you?  i have no qualm with people having the feelings in the first place youre argument is misplaced.



> Not only that, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji said "Aurat Imaan" as stated in many historical references.
> This happened when a celibate sadhu asked why Guru Ji has married.



i believe he refers to the love with his wife being his bedrock.



> So it is very clear that Guru Sahib only accepted male and female marriages and this tradition must continue. It can never be changed to suit some people who fail to overcome their moh and kaam.



youve proved nothing!



> I will say it once again, please don't take Amrit and join the Khalsa Panth unless you are striaght.



I will say once again youre vichar is poor i hope you do better in youre studies leave sikhism and gurbani vichar to others and dont embarass the sikh religion with your rubbish.

As for youre other post it is just as incomprehendable,

Have a gayday!

Indy


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 23, 2006)

It is not me who is driven by kaam, it is you guys who promote homoism. That article is also there. Find me one quote from Gurbani which says homosexuality is okay.

"they also make references between the sexual antics of animals too does that me we should allow deers to be married in the gurdwara aswell have some sense"

Where does Bhai Gurdas say deer are equal to men? You are just jealous becuase you have no solid basis to promote homosexuality other than attacking me.

Do you even know how to understand Gurbani? Do you even know the difference between feminine and masculin?

I did read your comments and they aren't solid at all.

What is the point of gristhi jeevan if it has nothing to do with children? It is not like gays and benefit the society in any positive way over long run.

Why don't you leave Sikhi and Gurmat maryada alone and not make a mockery out of Anand Karaj by saying gays are allowed to marry in Gurudwara.

You new age masands need the same treatment as given to masands of old times by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Are you even Amritdhari?

No Guru Ka Sikh says that gays are allowed. It would be the biggest shame to kaum to see two bearded men or 2 women sitting in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji waiting to be married.

Did Guru Sahib didn't use the word satan?

Rahay Sitaanee Duniyaa Go-ee

Paap Kmaavundeyaa Tayra Koee Naa Bailee Raam

Kaajeyaa Baamnaa Kee Gull THukee Aagadd Prai Saitaan Vay Laalo

Of course wrong exists. Wrong things exist thus they are banned in Guru's Panth.

Homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs. A drug addict can't be enrolled in Guru's marg so same way neither can a gay person.

Gays are free to live in society as humans and should not be discriminated against but they can not be part of Khalsa Panth.
This is final decision made by Panth.


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## ISDhillon (Dec 23, 2006)

> It is not me who is driven by kaam, it is you guys who promote homoism. That article is also there. Find me one quote from Gurbani which says homosexuality is okay.




give me the article in english and i will rebut it straight away.  Why does gurbani have to say homosexuality or heterosexuality is ok, if noone mentions something krodhees like you and vedanti make stuff up for nothing.



> Where does Bhai Gurdas say deer are equal to men? You are just jealous becuase you have no solid basis to promote homosexuality other than attacking me.



in the sggs it talks of love of god the same as love between species of animals, it talks of songbirds calling their beloved, love is the same, why do you ask for the equality of animals to humans?, i know so you can argue that whilst the animals love also that they are not equal yet you need to show how animals are not equal yourself before you argue from that point. 



> Do you even know how to understand Gurbani? Do you even know the difference between feminine and masculin?



yes each sikh has is own understanding of bani we do not need anyone individual to take authority on translation, masculine and femine are energies they are not confined to male and female.



> I did read your comments and they aren't solid at all.



and yours are pleeeeeeeeese dont make me proclaim you a cybertankhaa!!!!!



> What is the point of gristhi jeevan if it has nothing to do with children? It is not like gays and benefit the society in any positive way over long run.



homosexulas have contributed more to society than heterosexuals in fact they are known to be very rich go to any gay village and see the standard of housing compared to heterosexuals who keep shitting out hateful kids and polluting society with their bad upbringing, let homosexulas be a measure of the worth of their lifestyle, what you deem as worthy is obviously personal to you, homosexuals maybe very happy with childless lifestyle and there is always surrogacy so if you feel like the population will decrease just pay them for ivf and its sorted.



> Why don't you leave Sikhi and Gurmat maryada alone and not make a mockery out of Anand Karaj by saying gays are allowed to marry in Gurudwara.



why do you keep smearing sikhi with youre semitic orthodoxy and allow all people to marry the way anand karaj was supposed to be ie, soul marriage.



> You new age masands need the same treatment as given to masands of old times by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.



vedanti and co are neo-masands the quicker you all renounce hate you will be much better thats why you are suffering now, read youre post why do you keep getting banned from websites, what will it take for you to realise you are treading the path of falsehood.



> Are you even Amritdhari?



no i am not but i understand it to be the ideal, will i loose credibility now and do you really think i care either ways.



> No Guru Ka Sikh says that gays are allowed. It would be the biggest shame to kaum to see two bearded men or 2 women sitting in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji waiting to be married.



you need to deal with the shame you feel because its the sodomy you have a problem with be honest you really have no other argument other than the thought of anal sex,be honest and admit all these long winded explanations are crap and you know it.



> Did Guru Sahib didn't use the word satan?
> 
> Rahay Sitaanee Duniyaa Go-ee
> 
> ...



seriously you have no right to lecture anyone on this forum about gurbani vichar that made me laugh me and my family had a good laugh at that one why dont you do stand up comedy?, the world is conniving yes but not driven by a fallen angel!!!!!!





> Homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs. A drug addict can't be enrolled in Guru's marg so same way neither can a gay person.



it is a beautiful addiction which has no side effects.


> Gays are free to live in society as humans and should not be discriminated against but they can not be part of Khalsa Panth.
> This is final decision made by Panth.


[/QUOTE]

i agree if such a decision has been made however with time you will be shamed, the sad reality is the catholic, islam faiths are all being proven wrong about there suscpicions of homos we as sikhs did not need to take a position but with the return of patriarchy to the punjab we have again failed!!!

good luck with youre bigoted attitude i will like to see how far it will take you, believe me its no where.

Indy


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 23, 2006)

You don't know Gurmukhi.
You aren't Amritdhari.
You say I am full of hatred when you are the one spitting foul and calling me pedophile.

"give me the article in english and i will rebut it straight away. Why does gurbani have to say homosexuality or heterosexuality is ok, if noone mentions something krodhees like you and vedanti make stuff up for nothing."
You issue that you can't understand Gurmukhi thus you support gays because you didn't merge with Guru Shabad.

"in the sggs it talks of love of god the same as love between species of animals, it talks of songbirds calling their beloved, love is the same, why do you ask for the equality of animals to humans?, i know so you can argue that whilst the animals love also that they are not equal yet you need to show how animals are not equal yourself before you argue from that point"
What are you on now? Animals are lower level species but Guru Ji used their example becuase those examples are easy to understand. Don't tell me that animals can also become Sikh.

"yes each sikh has is own understanding of bani we do not need anyone individual to take authority on translation, masculine and femine are energies they are not confined to male and female."
You don't understand becuase you rely on translations. Missionaries take authority on translations and Akaal Takht has accepted their translations. E.g. Prof. Sahib Singh. So we do have authority.

"and yours are pleeeeeeeeese dont make me proclaim you a cybertankhaa!!!!!"
What is that?

"homosexulas have contributed more to society than heterosexuals in fact they are known to be very rich go to any gay village and see the standard of housing compared to heterosexuals who keep shitting out hateful kids and polluting society with their bad upbringing, let homosexulas be a measure of the worth of their lifestyle, what you deem as worthy is obviously personal to you, homosexuals maybe very happy with childless lifestyle and there is always surrogacy so if you feel like the population will decrease just pay them for ivf and its sorted."
How are they going to contribute positively? By promoting more gays and lesbians? Is society not messed up enough already that people like you want to mess it up more? Homosexuals were prob. bad people in their previous lives so they paying for it now. We pay for our paaps whether we do it in this life or next.

"why do you keep smearing sikhi with youre semitic orthodoxy and allow all people to marry the way anand karaj was supposed to be ie, soul marriage."
Last time i checked, Anand Karaj wasn't only soul marriage. Souls don't have babies, the body does. Once again, don't ignore the body part. Code of conduct says to have sex with wife only after marriage. Isn't this physical? Now are you wiser than the whole Panth? Someone who isn't even Sikh is teaching me what Sikhism allows. ****

"vedanti and co are neo-masands the quicker you all renounce hate you will be much better thats why you are suffering now, read youre post why do you keep getting banned from websites, what will it take for you to realise you are treading the path of falsehood."
It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with what is allowed in the Sikh religion. According to you, Banda Singh Bahadur was also filled by hate because he killed dushts.

"no i am not but i understand it to be the ideal, will i loose credibility now and do you really think i care either ways"
If you don't care then what heck are you doing on a Sikh forum messing around with Sikh ideology? Why don't you go preach your views on some homo site and leave poor Sikhs like me alone? We are tired of attacks on Sikhi of Guru Nanak by anti-Panthic elements. Mughals, brahmans, yogis, masands, pathans, british, tantrics, shakians, rss, shiv, sena and now homos.

"you need to deal with the shame you feel because its the sodomy you have a problem with be honest you really have no other argument other than the thought of anal sex,be honest and admit all these long winded explanations are crap and you know it."
Of course sodomy is part of it. Who doesn't know. However, there are other issues as mentioned in the post.

"seriously you have no right to lecture anyone on this forum about gurbani vichar that made me laugh me and my family had a good laugh at that one why dont you do stand up comedy?, the world is conniving yes but not driven by a fallen angel!!!!!!"
is your family messed up like you?

"it is a beautiful addiction which has no side effects."
Says who? Are you Mahapurakh? Side effect is messing up the society and going against nature.

"i agree if such a decision has been made however with time you will be shamed, the sad reality is the catholic, islam faiths are all being proven wrong about there suscpicions of homos we as sikhs did not need to take a position but with the return of patriarchy to the punjab we have again failed!!!"
They failed because they only care about #rs. Guru Gobind SIngh Ji rejected masands even when they wanted to come back. Guru Ji wants quality over quantity. Gays might increase the # of Sikhs but it won't give quality and we don't care what Christians or Muslims did. Khalsa is Nirmal.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 23, 2006)

****
Make your gay comments in the Homosexuality thread.
Maybe if the gays didn't interfere with religious codes then they wouldn't be hated as much.


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## ISDhillon (Dec 23, 2006)

> You issue that you can't understand Gurmukhi thus you support gays because you didn't merge with Guru Shabad.


i understand gurumukhi you provided me with a bunch of letters translate it into english and ill deal with it.




> What are you on now? Animals are lower level species but Guru Ji used their example becuase those examples are easy to understand. Don't tell me that animals can also become Sikh.


lol, animals are lower level species - where are you getting this hierarchy from?,  the use of animal metaphor is about love of god and the soul so why does physical same ness distract this love it is still beautifull, answer the questions raised instead of taking me on a whirlwind!!!




> You don't understand becuase you rely on translations. Missionaries take authority on translations and Akaal Takht has accepted their translations. E.g. Prof. Sahib Singh. So we do have authority.


exactly and i dont translate it with homophobic intent so make sure your mann is saaf before you translate.




> What is that?


a tankhaa in the modern it age havnt you read the new hukumnamma?????



> How are they going to contribute positively?


 by working and and paying taxes


> By promoting more gays and lesbians?


i have never seen a gay prommotion campaign but then again you are from canada.



> Is society not messed up enough already that people like you want to mess it up more?


hate messes up society when we get rid of hate then we will see how heaven will come to earth.



> Homosexuals were prob. bad people in their previous lives so they paying for it now. We pay for our paaps whether we do it in this life or next.


what part of gurbani did you translate this from is it the khalsafaujpakyaan



> Last time i checked, Anand Karaj wasn't only soul marriage.


last time you must have been drunk read it again.



> Souls don't have babies, the body does.


well done whats youre point, why is procreation mans purpose?



> Once again, don't ignore the body part. Code of conduct says to have sex with wife only after marriage. Isn't this physical? Now are you wiser than the whole Panth? Someone who isn't even Sikh is teaching me what Sikhism allows. What a ****.


when homosexuals can get married what prohibition are you referring to vedanti sure as hell doesnt speak on behalf of all sikhs he never consulted me so why should i believe an iota of his edicsts, i suggest you liberate yurself from listening to these pretend parcharaks.  Have you ever asked your mother why she was a ****ing ***** who produced a hateful son maybe you should ask her and then rethink youre insults.




> It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with what is allowed in the Sikh religion. According to you, Banda Singh Bahadur was also filled by hate because he killed dushts.


i never said that about banda he never hated i can kill someone in defense does not mean i hate, dont talk about people in the past you are not like them so you dont have the right.




> If you don't care then what heck are you doing on a Sikh forum messing around with Sikh ideology? Why don't you go preach your views on some homo site and leave poor Sikhs like me alone? We are tired of attacks on Sikhi of Guru Nanak by anti-Panthic elements. Mughals, brahmans, yogis, masands, pathans, british, tantrics, shakians, rss, shiv, sena and now homos.


i have to free sikhism from fake preachers like you thats why.



> Of course sodomy is part of it. Who doesn't know. However, there are other issues as mentioned in the post.


it all about the ***



> is your family messed up like you?


oh pleeese youre mother married her brother thats why youre so screwed up in the head , ther there its not youre fault youre backwards, do some extra naam simran youll get better, trust man!




> Says who? Are you Mahapurakh? Side effect is messing up the society and going against nature.


what ******** reason, where has society been messed up? show me, dont say




> They failed because they only care about #rs. Guru Gobind SIngh Ji rejected masands even when they wanted to come back. Guru Ji wants quality over quantity. Gays might increase the # of Sikhs but it won't give quality and we don't care what Christians or Muslims did. Khalsa is Nirmal.


[/quote]

all of which had nothing to do with what we were discussing

come on pakandi baba show me wot ur made of

INDYPINDY


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## ISDhillon (Dec 23, 2006)

> You issue that you can't understand Gurmukhi thus you support gays because you didn't merge with Guru Shabad.


i understand gurumukhi you provided me with a bunch of letters translate it into english and ill deal with it.




> What are you on now? Animals are lower level species but Guru Ji used their example becuase those examples are easy to understand. Don't tell me that animals can also become Sikh.


lol, animals are lower level species - where are you getting this hierarchy from?,  the use of animal metaphor is about love of god and the soul so why does physical same ness distract this love it is still beautifull, answer the questions raised instead of taking me on a whirlwind!!!




> You don't understand becuase you rely on translations. Missionaries take authority on translations and Akaal Takht has accepted their translations. E.g. Prof. Sahib Singh. So we do have authority.


exactly and i dont translate it with homophobic intent so make sure your mann is saaf before you translate.




> What is that?


a tankhaa in the modern it age havnt you read the new hukumnamma?????



> How are they going to contribute positively?


 by working and and paying taxes


> By promoting more gays and lesbians?


i have never seen a gay prommotion campaign but then again you are from canada.



> Is society not messed up enough already that people like you want to mess it up more?


hate messes up society when we get rid of hate then we will see how heaven will come to earth.



> Homosexuals were prob. bad people in their previous lives so they paying for it now. We pay for our paaps whether we do it in this life or next.


what part of gurbani did you translate this from is it the khalsafaujpakyaan



> Last time i checked, Anand Karaj wasn't only soul marriage.


last time you must have been drunk read it again.



> Souls don't have babies, the body does.


well done whats youre point, why is procreation mans purpose?



> Once again, don't ignore the body part. Code of conduct says to have sex with wife only after marriage. Isn't this physical? Now are you wiser than the whole Panth? Someone who isn't even Sikh is teaching me what Sikhism allows. What a ****.


when homosexuals can get married what prohibition are you referring to vedanti sure as hell doesnt speak on behalf of all sikhs he never consulted me so why should i believe an iota of his edicsts, i suggest you liberate yurself from listening to these pretend parcharaks.  Have you ever asked your mother why she was a ****ing ***** who produced a hateful son maybe you should ask her and then rethink youre insults.




> It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with what is allowed in the Sikh religion. According to you, Banda Singh Bahadur was also filled by hate because he killed dushts.


i never said that about banda he never hated i can kill someone in defense does not mean i hate, dont talk about people in the past you are not like them so you dont have the right.




> If you don't care then what heck are you doing on a Sikh forum messing around with Sikh ideology? Why don't you go preach your views on some homo site and leave poor Sikhs like me alone? We are tired of attacks on Sikhi of Guru Nanak by anti-Panthic elements. Mughals, brahmans, yogis, masands, pathans, british, tantrics, shakians, rss, shiv, sena and now homos.


i have to free sikhism from fake preachers like you thats why.



> Of course sodomy is part of it. Who doesn't know. However, there are other issues as mentioned in the post.


it all about the ***



> is your family messed up like you?


oh pleeese youre mother married her brother thats why youre so screwed up in the head , ther there its not youre fault youre backwards, do some extra naam simran youll get better, trust man!




> Says who? Are you Mahapurakh? Side effect is messing up the society and going against nature.


what ******** reason, where has society been messed up? show me, dont say




> They failed because they only care about #rs. Guru Gobind SIngh Ji rejected masands even when they wanted to come back. Guru Ji wants quality over quantity. Gays might increase the # of Sikhs but it won't give quality and we don't care what Christians or Muslims did. Khalsa is Nirmal.


[/quote]

all of which had nothing to do with what we were discussing

come on pakandi baba show me wot ur made of

INDYPINDY


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## kaur-1 (Dec 23, 2006)

*Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh

Please refrain from making personal attacks.

Thank you *


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## kaur-1 (Dec 23, 2006)

*Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh

*All the post have not been deleted. They have only been set to "unapprove" for the time being

Please try and refrain from personal attacks. But please do continue the discussion.


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## Lionchild (Dec 23, 2006)

Juat to make a reply, while we may not agree with it, that does not mean we have the right to disrespect those who choose that path. Some of the people i work with are gay, and they are nice people to speak to.

Whats the point of this thread still being open???


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## ISDhillon (Dec 23, 2006)

just like to say i had a killer response but mods deleted it so i cant be bothered to write it again, but you havent heard the last word i am gonna write an article and post it all over the net and then you can all complain about beadbi for the next millenia cos youve got sad lives:}--}:


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## CaramelChocolate (Apr 5, 2007)

For reference purposes:
http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_sexuality.pdf


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## hpluthera (Apr 8, 2007)

Dear Kandola & other Sikhs and members of this site
All questions and and discussions sometime only present doubts and reasons to prove something right which may otherwise be viewed in this world wrong.  Guru Nanak Dev Ji has made one thing very clear and that is "Man Jite Jag Jeet"  in Japji and the sole purpose of this life is to connect to HIM   through MInd and for that align your MIND BODY and Soul.  Naam is given the an analogy of a Ship.  "nanak Naam Jahaj Hai, Charaiy so Utre Par".

So all discussions moral boundries right and wrongs doubts can be mitigated by "naam Simran" not discussions or debates,  these are just "Naam Bina sab Gali Hochian".

Understand one thing Guru made Sikhi as simple as Akal Purukh made our taking breath while living.  It is hard to comprehend by ordinary people how can Naam cangive me all solutions and answers.  The fact is our Guru has given us a written Gaurantee in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji.  Yes GAURANTEE that too in writing.

Dear friends instead of creating doubts after doubts by unnecessary discussions and MANMATT"  Follow "Gurmatt" and just engage your self in Naaam Simran.

Naam is such a sharp tool it will mitigate all so called sins and ego and you will in Sahaj avstha win your mind and become a King of this Universe.  I am no not saying that Guru nanak Said.

We need not spread Sikhi because by Gurus definition all are Sikhs who comes in His sharan.  spread Naam "Soi Gur Ka Sikh Kahai ---Aap japey awra Naam japavey".

Khalsa is akal purukh ki fauj the care taker of Sikhs and Guru Granth sahib is our living Guru "naam ka Jahaz"  Naam ke Bauhetey".  Every Sikh has an ultimate goal to be Khalas the member of Akal Purukh ki fauj.  and in that state of mind and physical regalia Guru has blessed five khalsa to represent him and also said "Khalsa mera roop haiy khas".


So dear friends Naam is more important than any thing else in Sikhi, but it is unfortunate that we have indulged ourselves in the egoistic debates and disciussions and in the process forgotten the real gem of Sikhi.

regards
HP Luthera


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 2, 2007)

The first same-sex Sikh marriage has taken place. See attached files..


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## Amritdhari_grl (Jul 25, 2007)

ok, i'm sorry i'm saying this  but same sex marriage is just WRONG! i do not believe it is how god intended us to be and sex marriage is based on nothing but  LUST! proved by the article above it said : "When I first met her I felt like touching her) :advocate::shock: I know u should keep ur opinions to ur self, but i just HAD to say something about this.


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## kds1980 (Jul 25, 2007)

Amritdhari_grl said:


> ok, i'm sorry i'm saying this  but same sex marriage is just WRONG! i do not believe it is how god intended us to be and sex marriage is based on nothing but  LUST! proved by the article above it said : "When I first met her I felt like touching her) :advocate::shock: I know u should keep ur opinions to ur self, but i just HAD to say something about this.



The problem with same sex marriage is that some people just even know whether they are straight or homosexual two years ago two girls of punjab did the same thing and take a look what happened

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TWO WOMEN from Amritsar, who had exchanged wedding vows at a temple and had even tried to get their marriage registered, separated on Thursday after two and a half years together The separation brings to an end the firstever lesbian "marriage" that had taken place in Punjab. Raju (25) and Mala (21), both residents of Sandhu Colony at Majitha Road, had grown up playing together And during the course of their childhood, the two fell in love. But when they came out in the open about their relationship, the two sets of parents put their foot down. Nonetheless, the couple eloped, reached Delhi, and got a priest to sanctify their marriage. The relationship blossomed for a couple of years. But then Mala yearned for a child. And it is this yearning that brought her close to Sonu, a man from the same neighbourhood whom she has now decided to marry and have children with. "My affection for Raju has not decreased. But I have developed a strong desire to marry a man so that I can have a child," she said. Raju, though, said: "Mala has never been like this. Her decision to marry a man has left me in shock." kmann@rediffmail.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These 2 girls openly took this bold step and said on tv that if they were separated then they will commit suicide.But now mala is marrying a man just because she want's a child
So all those threats and revolt against parents and society was just for living 2 years.


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## ISDhillon (Jul 25, 2007)

> These 2 girls openly took this bold step and said on tv that if they were separated then they will commit suicide.But now mala is marrying a man just because she want's a child
> So all those threats and revolt against parents and society was just for living 2 years.


[/QUOTE]


who's to say she wont dump her husband after she gets a kid and take the kid back to her lesbian freind? how do you know this isnt a plan?   do u think she became heterosexual overnight?

live and let others live if the gurus had thought it were a problem they would have said so, they didnt therefore we shouldnt make an issue out of it either.

Indy


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## kds1980 (Jul 25, 2007)

> who's to say she wont dump her husband after she gets a kid and take the kid back to her lesbian freind? how do you know this isnt a plan?   do u think she became heterosexual overnight?
> 
> live and let others live if the gurus had thought it were a problem they would have said so, they didnt therefore we shouldnt make an issue out of it either.
> 
> Indy



she could but the question is why the girl dumped her lesbian partner for a male husband.
i don't think child is the only reason for this.she could have adopted the child or she could 
use artificial techniques for getting pregnant.you revolt against the society and your parents you threaten to commit suicide and then you leave your partner just after 2 years
what is this.as far as live and let live is concerned this is applicable to mature persons who very well know the consequences of their actions.majority of 19 and 20 years are not capable of doing this they sometime take rash decisions.


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## ISDhillon (Jul 25, 2007)

> kds1980 said:
> 
> 
> > she could but the question is why the girl dumped her lesbian partner for a male husband.
> ...


 
So you believe she left her girlfreind because she wanted a husband and not a child? - i think you are trying to strenghten youre case through youre personal opinion, 

I believe anybody in love is not able to make rational decisions because love is irrational, still doesnt mean you cant love.

Anyways believe what u want,

Indy


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## kds1980 (Jul 25, 2007)

ISDhillon said:


> So you believe she left her girlfreind because she wanted a husband and not a child? - i think you are trying to strenghten youre case through youre personal opinion,
> 
> I believe anybody in love is not able to make rational decisions because love is irrational, still doesnt mean you cant love.
> 
> ...



I am not trying to strengthen my case i am just guessing.The other reason could be that she knew that  in homosexual relationship she has to live like an outcaste from the society.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 25, 2007)

Amritdhari_grl said:


> ok, i'm sorry i'm saying this but same sex marriage is just WRONG! i do not believe it is how god intended us to be and sex marriage is based on nothing but LUST! proved by the article above it said : "When I first met her I felt like touching her) :advocate::shock: I know u should keep ur opinions to ur self, but i just HAD to say something about this.


 

Hmm I can never understand why a Homosexual relationship must be based on Lust yet a Hetrosexual on Love?

I am assuming that you are saying this because a same sex couple do not have sex to procreate......well news for you my dear ....I know many Hetro couples who cannot have children but still got married. I take it every time they have sex they are doing so out of Lust? Could it be it is their expression of love.

I think you need to analyse what you have stated before passing judgment on whose relationsip is based on Kaam and who's is not.

PS I say this as someone who was very Homophobic at one time.....and through Bani I have learned there is room for us all on this planet.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 25, 2007)

Alhamdulilah (praise be to God), Randip, your post was very touching and inspiring.


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## skeptik (Jul 29, 2007)

I dont know if it has been mentioned before, so I will mention it now: Culturally we have never entertained homosexuality. Why should that change now?


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 29, 2007)

skeptik said:


> I dont know if it has been mentioned before, so I will mention it now: Culturally we have never entertained homosexuality. Why should that change now?


 
Culture is not timeless, it changes. If Guru Nanak did not question his culture then Sikhi would not be here today. He questioned many social norms such as caste discrimination, murti puja and a ritual approach to God... the possibilities are limitless.


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## skeptik (Jul 29, 2007)

> Culture is not timeless, it changes. If Guru Nanak did not question his culture then Sikhi would not be here today. He questioned many social norms such as caste discrimination, murti puja and a ritual approach to God... the possibilities are limitless.



Sure, culture is not timeless and it changes. That is exactly our challenge as Sikhs though -- to maintain the way of our founders. We owe it to them and to ourselves to live the way they did. It doesn't follow that by Sikhi we are free to innovate ourselves away from our past. Of those limitless possibilities, our duty lies in following the path of tradition. After all that is where we find the richness of our faith and our best guide to living as Sikhs. You have not answered my question: Why should we depart so drastically from our culture?


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 30, 2007)

skeptik said:


> Sure, culture is not timeless and it changes. That is exactly our challenge as Sikhs though -- to maintain the way of our founders. We owe it to them and to ourselves to live the way they did. It doesn't follow that by Sikhi we are free to innovate ourselves away from our past. Of those limitless possibilities, our duty lies in following the path of tradition. After all that is where we find the richness of our faith and our best guide to living as Sikhs. You have not answered my question: Why should we depart so drastically from our culture?


 
I am not sure I would use the words culture and religion interchangeably, yet Sikhism isn't really a religion in that sense - so how should a Sikh, or Sikhism be defined? The Sikhism today is drastically different from Sikhism of the Gurus times and the British empire, initially it was a universal house of prayer for people of all faiths and a Sikh was some one of any faith/culture who believed in God... times have changed. At the Gurus time I could have called myself a Sikh, but now I cannot because I either have to be an amritdhari (convert) or a punjabi 'born' Sikh. So in reality, no one has stuck to the traditions of the Gurus.
Due to such changes, I am not in a position to answer your question. Maybe 100 years ago I would have been.


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## skeptik (Jul 30, 2007)

> I am not sure I would use the words culture and religion interchangeably, yet Sikhism isn't really a religion in that sense - so how should a Sikh, or Sikhism be defined?



There is no need to trouble over definitions -- all you have to do is take a honest look at our community. It did not spring from a vacuum -- we are not very far ahead, in time, from that original source. Let's leave the squabbling over definitions to those who have nothing better to do, and instead choose a better approach. Common sense dictates we look at our common reality. Our culture does not entertain homosexuality -- there is no place for it in our society except possibly at the margins. That is the way it has been since the beginning -- and I do not see any reason to change now. 

There is no difference between Sikhi then and now. Sure times have changed -- this hardly bares mentioning for it is obvious -- but the essense of Sikhi remains the same. We cannot claim to be the Sikhs of Guru Nanak and at the same time fork from the rich tradition we have inherited. Many things change -- politics, technology and so on -- but we have in possession  the same ideas on good society as did our founders. 

Why should we innovate away from our tradition? Why should we abandon our centuries old culture? I am not convinced this even a good idea and I am struggling to understand the logic behind it.


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## ISDhillon (Jul 30, 2007)

> Why should we innovate away from our tradition? Why should we abandon our centuries old culture? I am not convinced this even a good idea and I am struggling to understand the logic behind it.


[/QUOTE]


why are you trying to understand the logic behind it? youre not willing to question centuries old tradition either, then homosexuality does not concern you neither does the need for you to entertain it arise, be happy in youre place and youre space, if homosexuals feel they have a need you do not have the need to butt in either.


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## skeptik (Jul 30, 2007)

The need to understand arose because someone made this thread to discuss it. It concerns us all of us if we are to change our way of living. It is a drastic change to admit homosexuality into society -- and if we do not discuss it thoughtfully we will have let down our ancestors and those who will come after us. We have a responsibility to preserve the Sikh way -- and this must mean we do not innovate without good reason. 

I must also add that you should not take things personally for in the big picture neither of us, nor anyone in this discussion, matter. What does matter is what we inherited in common and what traditions we will leave for our children.


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## ISDhillon (Jul 30, 2007)

skeptik said:


> The need to understand arose because someone made this thread to discuss it. It concerns us all of us if we are to change our way of living. It is a drastic change to admit homosexuality into society -- and if we do not discuss it thoughtfully we will have let down our ancestors and those who will come after us. We have a responsibility to preserve the Sikh way -- and this must mean we do not innovate without good reason.
> 
> I must also add that you should not take things personally for in the big picture neither of us, nor anyone in this discussion matter. What does matter is what we inherited and what we will leave for our children.


 

Youve just come into this discussion now if you had read the previous posts you would have indeed seen a presence of homosexuality in sikh society during moghul periods, indeed many elevated bhagats were homosexuals it may come as a surprise to you, sha hussain, sarmad, etc etc were gay get used to it and do some research, this discussion started when vedanti opened his mouth not because of anyone on this forum , youre forgiven i dont take it personally.


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## skeptik (Jul 30, 2007)

Maybe it impresses you that some bhagats were gay but that means little in the big picture. The facts are that we've never had a society that embraced homosexuality and there is zero proof for that ever happening. Look around you, tell me there is any even a small chance that a proud manly race like ours would ever accept such a thing. Our men are extremely macho -- your experience cannot be any different, and if it is, it is unrepresentative. It wouldn't happen now, and it wouldn't happen then. Whatever your history is telling you -- it is wrong. Only a defective mind which would hold any different from the obvious facts. Feel free to create an imaginary reality, but keep it out of a serious debate on Sikhi.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 30, 2007)

skeptik said:


> but the essense of Sikhi remains the same.


Not really. It was initially to unify people of all faiths, this changed since the British empire and resulted in the current attitudes to homosexuality.


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## Astroboy (Jul 30, 2007)

Equal Marriage for Same-Sex Couples | In our faiths | Purging toxic religion in Canada


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## skeptik (Jul 30, 2007)

> Not really. It was initially to unify people of all faiths, this changed since the British empire and resulted in the current attitudes to homosexuality.



a rather speculative statement.

The old "the brits did it" conspiracy theory which has been much abused over the years. What hasn't been hidden away in that convenient catchall. In this instance I think you've reached too far. You've made a concrete assertion: that prior to the british arrival, our attitudes towards homosexuality were different. Why should they have changed? How did this change come about? Why did the Sikhs accept the change so readily? These are just some questions you should address with a convincing argument if you can. It appears rather tenuous.


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## skeptik (Jul 30, 2007)

begum said:


> Equal Marriage for Same-Sex Couples | In our faiths | Purging toxic religion in Canada



Some choice quotes: 



> This from a country where it is common for Hindus and Sikhs to slaughter each other in response to disputes.



and another fine one:


> We're most confident that Sikhs in this country will not revert to the superstitions and behaviour of the underdeveloped countries they left behind, edicts from abroad notwithstanding.



Well, what a bunch of uncivilized savages we must be!


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## ISDhillon (Jul 31, 2007)

skeptik said:


> Maybe it impresses you that some bhagats were gay but that means little in the big picture. The facts are that we've never had a society that embraced homosexuality and there is zero proof for that ever happening. Look around you, tell me there is any even a small chance that a proud manly race like ours would ever accept such a thing. Our men are extremely macho -- your experience cannot be any different, and if it is, it is unrepresentative. It wouldn't happen now, and it wouldn't happen then. Whatever your history is telling you -- it is wrong. Only a defective mind which would hold any different from the obvious facts. Feel free to create an imaginary reality, but keep it out of a serious debate on Sikhi.


 

It does not impress me at all, there are homosexuals in the gurdwara even in many sant deras there are granthis who give there life to sikhi cos their gay, nothing macho there.  Views such as yours lead to the molestation of boys in the sangat by older granthis such was the recent case in canada, do not be blinded by youre personal feelings and try to look at things objectively.  If you believe that same-sex marriages will not become an integral part of sikhi in the future then you are heading for a rude awakening, the revolution has started in punjab and will filter out into the diaspora too, youre views are shrivel in the wake of that.

Gurfateh

Indster


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## kds1980 (Jul 31, 2007)

ISDhillon said:


> It does not impress me at all, there are homosexuals in the gurdwara even in many sant deras there are granthis who give there life to sikhi cos their gay, nothing macho there.  Views such as yours lead to the molestation of boys in the sangat by older granthis such was the recent case in canada, do not be blinded by youre personal feelings and try to look at things objectively.  If you believe that same-sex marriages will not become an integral part of sikhi in the future then you are heading for a rude awakening, the revolution has started in punjab and will filter out into the diaspora too, youre views are shrivel in the wake of that.
> 
> Gurfateh
> 
> Indster



Dhillon ji so many sikh youngsters visit and complain on sikh sites that they cannot marry partners because they are of another caste and you are saying that same-sex marriages will be accepted by sikh society.It looks like sikh society is going backward.i am sorry to say but acceptance of same sex marriage is just a dream.


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## skeptik (Jul 31, 2007)

> there are homosexuals in the gurdwara even in many sant deras there are granthis who give there life to sikhi cos their gay, nothing macho there



That is a neglible group of people you are talking about. The set of Sikhs who frequent dere are very small compared to the total number of Sikhs. I wouldn't even consider them representative of ordinary Sikhs -- people who have jobs and families and children and so on, unlike idlers who have the time to waste visiting Deras.



> Views such as yours lead to the molestation of boys in the sangat by older granthis such was the recent case in canada, do not be blinded by youre personal feelings and try to look at things objectively



Please stick to the subject. It doesn't give you any credibility when you make wild claims like these. You only end up looking silly. 



> f you believe that same-sex marriages will not become an integral part of sikhi in the future then you are heading for a rude awakening, the revolution has started in punjab and will filter out into the diaspora too, youre views are shrivel in the wake of that.



It doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is our common belief. Sikhs have never embraced homosexuality and we have no reason to change things now. The fact that you seem to believe our ideas on good society can change so violently is amusing. I dont know how you can sustain such a silly view, but since you've been unable to provide any reasoning behind your opinions, I can only guess that you have some serious common sense issues


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## ISDhillon (Aug 1, 2007)

> skeptik said:
> 
> 
> > That is a neglible group of people you are talking about. The set of Sikhs who frequent dere are very small compared to the total number of Sikhs. I wouldn't even consider them representative of ordinary Sikhs -- people who have jobs and families and children and so on, unlike idlers who have the time to waste visiting Deras.
> ...


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 3, 2007)

Gurfateh

in Nihungs we have homosexuals with the term Munadav ghat but people who want to join want them to reform.Das thinks that we can have separate dal for homosexuals in Nihungs.

more input for this.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 7, 2007)

Homosexuality isn't accepted in the Sikh religion as stated before. If a cannabis taker has to quit taking bhung, a homosexual has to stop being homosexual. If polygamy and bigamy are banned, homosexuality is also banned. Homosexuality is nothing more than uncontrolled kaam and attraction to deh. It is moral corruption. This is another big low in society. Even Vedanti issues hukamnama against homosexuality. No matter how bad Vedanti is.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 7, 2007)

Child molestation happened from Nanakser dera cultists. They aren't even close to being Sikhs. Being in control of Gurudwara doesn't make you a Sikh. Massa Ranghar was in control of Akaal Takht and Darbar Sahib at one time too. Those Nanaksar guys molested kids cause they couldn't fulfill their kaam because they had no wives or their wives weren't there. They didn't do it because they wanted to marry some homos. Homosexuality wasn't accepted before and it won't be now either. We aren't going to make compromises with Sikh principles to increase the number of Sikhs to please morally corrupt society.

Who said Sarmad or Hussain were elevated saints? To be labelled and to be in reality is a big difference.


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## k s gadh (Aug 8, 2007)

Sat sri Akaal,
 Ref.Sikhism and Homosextuality
Homosexulity is nothing but one of the bad thoughts of a persons' mind.
No religion in the world is in favour of lust or homosextuality whether that is Christanity, Islaam, Hinduism or sikhism.  
In Gurbani we all prayer...Waheguru Ji sanoo Kaam ,Karodh, Lobh,Moah hankaar toan bachai rakhna( we all mean male or female)
Rozana Gurbani paran wala is tara di gal nahin soach sakda

Sat Sri Akaal Ji
Tusi vi gurbani  nall prem karo istra de vichar nahin satan ge.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 8, 2007)

Gurfateh

Homosexuality if das is not mistaken had some thing to do with some things uncurable happening to man(lesbians in case of women) due to circumstances as das was told by DRkhalsa Ji.

In previous post it was there.Some things which are beyond the control of man.So we can no comdem this just like fundamnetalists.

even if we behold it as sin.
ਪੰਨਾ 920, ਸਤਰ 15
ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਪੁੰਨ ਪਾਪ ਬੀਚਾਰਦੇ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
सिम्रिति सासत्र पुंन पाप बीचारदे ततै सार न जाणी ॥
Simriṯ sāsṯar punn pāp bīcẖārḏė ṯaṯai sār na jāṇī.
The Simritees and the Shaastras discriminate between good and evil, but they do not know the true essence of reality.
ਮਃ 3   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 949, ਸਤਰ 17
ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਾਜਿਅਨੁ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਨੀ ॥
सिम्रिति सासत साजिअनु पाप पुंन गणत गणीनी ॥
Simriṯ sāsaṯ sāji&shy;an pāp punn gaṇaṯ gaṇīnī.
He created the Simritees and the Shaastras; He calculates the accounts of virtue and vice.
ਮਃ 3   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 

ਪੰਨਾ 1050, ਸਤਰ 3
ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਬੇਦਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ਹੇ ॥੧੫॥
पुंनु पापु सभु बेदि द्रिड़ाइआ गुरमुखि अम्रितु पीजै हे ॥१५॥
Punn pāp sabẖ bėḏ driṛ&shy;ā&shy;i&shy;ā gurmukẖ amriṯ pījai hė. ||15||
The Vedas tell all about virtue and vice, but only the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||15||
ਮਃ 3   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

So what das came to know about helplessness of homosexuals(two partners or mnay and indulging in such acts and not forcing us in that) as their becoming homsexuals was not in thier control nor it is inthier control to come out of it.Then we have to be sympathic and ned something to do to rehabliation of them.


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## ISDhillon (Aug 8, 2007)

Any statements need to be backed by gurbani otherwise it is krodh nothing else, just recently there was a case in my area where 2 sikhs got a civil union partnership to their surprise one of the elders also read the anand karaj for them at the service, it is true that we do not need to be in the gurdwara to have a marriage performed we can just take the verses to the ceremony itself I think this is an excellent idea.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 8, 2007)

Gurfateh
We can prevent homosexuality for novice by indoctrination but some times it is impossible to bring the people back from homosexuality.

Here we need to talk more about them.anyway Akal is all powerfull and can defy scince.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 11, 2007)

Gurfateh
Das begs brother TKF to give at least 10 verse from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.10 each for Anti Homsexuality and 10 for no same sex marige.He has option to take help of Kala Afghana Ji and Ghugaga Ji.They are champion to ask 5 or 10 referances.


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## jagdipsingh (Aug 11, 2007)

satsiri akal ji


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 11, 2007)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> Das begs brother TKF to give at least 10 verse from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.10 each for Anti Homsexuality and 10 for no same sex marige.He has option to take help of Kala Afghana Ji and Ghugaga Ji.They are champion to ask 5 or 10 referances.


 
Show me 5 or 10 references where it says you cannot take heroine or methadone.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 12, 2007)

> Homosexuality is nothing more than uncontrolled kaam and attraction to deh. It is moral corruption. This is another big low in society




Dear Friend 


It seems you know really very little about What homosexuality is?
So your comments reflects the same

I hope you believe in mordern Medical Science 

IT IS A FACT IN MEDICAL SCIENCE THAT NEITHER HOMESEXUALITY IS DISEASE(MENTAL OR PHYSICAL) NOR IT IS ABSOLUTELY GOVERNED BY CHOICE OF INDIVIDUAL WHO IS HOMOSEXUAL


Somebody Deprived of SEX , who indulges in Same Sex ( in case of hetero sexual ) or with child is  a PREVERT and PEDOPHILE respectively and not HOMOSEXUAL

So plz first get the basics Right

If the above statement doesnot feel right get in touch with some Medical expert ( preferably Psychiatrist ) and then get it conformed 

Only after You know what it is , continue commenting on in it also what your version of Sikhism allows. 


In short it is just Sexual Preferance Thats differ Homosexual from Heterosexual   not the excess lust or liking for body. its same for the both categories


Thanks 


Jatinder Singh


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 12, 2007)

I don't care what science says as it is a matter of control of mind. It is still sodomy so it is wrong. Yes the person is a pedophile if the person does it to a kid but it is homosexual when two men go at it on their own will. Also, anyone can say that it isn't my choice or it is natural. God knows what the truth is. Also, if it isn't about deh and is about soul, then it must be possible for a homosexual to fall in love with a woman too but that isn't the case. It is the corruption in the mind. Not something natural. Also you used the word preference, if there is preference, isn't there choice?


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## Sherab (Aug 12, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> I don't care what science says as it is a matter of control of mind. It is still sodomy so it is wrong. Yes the person is a pedophile if the person does it to a kid but it is homosexual when two men go at it on their own will. Also, anyone can say that it isn't my choice or it is natural. God knows what the truth is. Also, if it isn't about deh and is about soul, then it must be possible for a homosexual to fall in love with a woman too but that isn't the case. It is the corruption in the mind. Not something natural. Also you used the word preference, if there is preference, isn't there choice?


It's my experince that i could choose to be homosexual if i wanted to - and so could anyone else.

However my "prefernce" is to ebe straight.


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## CaramelChocolate (Aug 13, 2007)

It amazes me how many Sikhs follow semetic concepts. This is due to British influence to avoid being considered as a barbaric, ritualistic, superstitious, idolaterous Hindu. To be frank I think you people are forgetting that Sikhism is not a religion in the semetic sense. To reiterate what I have already said on this forum, there was once a time when namaaz was performed in HarMandir Sahib, when murti muja was just performed outside. The true message of Sikhism is unity of mankind. You can scream "we are monotheists all we like" to seem unbarbaric due to British influence and to please the Muslims, but the fact of the matter is, YOUR Guru talks about athiesm, monotheism, polytheism and duality. The same can be applied to this concept of sodomy - please show me where this concept is accepted/promoted anywhere in Sikh scriptures.
The concept of sodomy is NOT anal sex, it is "non procreative sexual acts" - masturbation, oral sex, anal sex and guess what...... KISSING! If you believe in the semetic concept of sodomy then why not accept others such as circumcision, halal/kosher meat, having a specific holy day... may be because the British did not follow some of those things? But the root cause did - Judaism. This proves my point even further that the stance against homosexuality was due to British influence.
When discussing matters like sexuality you have to separate act from desire. I am homosexual, and no hetero, no matter what pedestal of piety they put themselves on, is going to tell me that I have chosen my desire. I simply don't care. However what is a choice is acting upon that desire, and like most religions say you should, I will only engage in sexual activity with a marital framework, yes - with a man.


A few website quotes:
Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association, Inc.
_A marginal homophobic trend in pre-colonial India thus became dominant in modern India. Indian nationalists, including Hindus, internalized Victorian ideals of heterosexual monogamy and disowned indigenous traditions that contravened those ideals. Nevertheless, those traditions persisted, for example, in the very visible communities of hijras, transgendered males who have a semi-sacred status and often engage in sexual relations with men._ 

*History of sex in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
_However the main moral influence that led to __stigmatisation__ of Indian sexual liberalism by Indians within India itself was the effect of the ideas of the __Victorian era__, in which other cultures were seen as primitive if they did not conform to the ideas of European culture. The pluralism of __Hinduism__, and its liberal attitudes were condemned as 'barbaric' by a colonial Europe and proof of inferiority of the East. The effects of British education, administration, scholarship of Indian history and biased literature all led to the effective 'colonization' of the Indian mind with European values. This led Indians eager to conform_ their religious practices and moral values to Victorian ideas of high civilisation.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 13, 2007)

Dear Friend 



> I don't care what science says



No body is forcing you to do so .You are free to cheerish your ideas based on your experiences

thank you

Jatinder Singh


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Aug 13, 2007)

Post edited.


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## k s gadh (Aug 14, 2007)

sat sri akaal,
Re. sikhism and homosextuality
Neither sikhism nor hinduism\muslimism\christanism\budhism says anythins about homosextuality.  This is only lust, creation of shaitan  dimag or the thinking of such type of persons who are not stable in their life, donot try to meditate for refining of the soul.  we should not relate the homosextuality with any religion.
This is totally different term dont' mingle it with any religion.
I may be wrong (pardon me_


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## Randip Singh (Aug 14, 2007)

*It All Comes Down To Kaam!!!*

Can people please answer the following questions before going round and round with this topic?

1) Is the intercourse between Lesbians/Homosexuals Kaam because they cannot reproduce?

2) If you have answered yes to the above then please explain intercourse between a hetrosexual couple who cannot have children? Is that not Kaam?

I need all the homophobes here to answer these question first before the topic moves on.


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## Astroboy (Aug 22, 2007)

Birth control measures have given sex a new meaning. Man has outsmarted nature by getting more sex without conceiving. Gone are the days when children were plenty and older siblings has to pass on their clothes, shoes and books to the younger ones. Bigger families also meant more responsibility for everyone in the family. 
There was more co-operation, more respect within the family unit, and everyone learnt survival tips everyday. 
Today, everything for one child, listen to all the bad language, no respect for elders, no peace of mind. Are we that smart after all?
Now we're talking about *Arnold* *Schwarzenegger* as a *pregnant* man? The Terminator with cramps and morning sickness? ... enjoyable fluff, in which *Arnold* *plays* a scientist who uses ...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 22, 2007)

good questions Randip ji

as for me i believe that sexual orientation is something out of control of a person.

however as pointed out earlier... a sex depraved person, forcing himself to do "non-preferred" sexual activity ( as it happens in jails etc) is wrong.

Sex is part and parcel of life...only when it  becomes a distraction to the normal balance of life or crosses the martial lines, it becomes Kaam.

some posters tried to put number to how many times... LOL

that was funny...


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## CaramelChocolate (Aug 23, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> however as pointed out earlier... a sex depraved person, forcing himself to do "non-preferred" sexual activity ( as it happens in jails etc) is wrong.


Well this has nothing to do with the discussion of homosexuality. Some people (not you) even like to bring in the evil of paedophilia into the discussion of homosexuality.


amarsanghera said:


> Sex is part and parcel of life...only when it becomes a distraction to the normal balance of life or crosses the martial lines, it becomes Kaam.


I agree. Sex for procreation is a Catholic/British influence.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 23, 2007)

why i brought this was,

the tendency of "checking out" or "trying out" variants is wrong...

this is specific for those people, who would do anything


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## kds1980 (Aug 25, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> 
> It seems you know really very little about What homosexuality is?
> ...



Dear dr.khalsa

Today i was reading an article of a girl who was raised by lesbian parents.she said that
lesbian parents helped her to explore her sexuality and today she can proudly say that she is bisexual.could you please shed some light on this that what is exploring sexuality?
how could someone explore its sexuality if its natural.Even in this thread sherab said that he could choose to be striaght or homosexual.again if it is natural the how could someone
choose to become straight or homosexual.

Also i want to know what is bisexuality? is it also natural to be attracted to both sexes
The last report i read on bisexuality said that there is nothing such as bisexuality.either people are straight or gay.So if its true then from where bisexuality come?


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## Sherab (Aug 25, 2007)

Hello all,

I have been bisexual and homosexual.

none lasted to long, however because i preferred, naturally, females.

I think a homosexual simply prefers their same gender, but i believe they could force themselves to be straight if they so chose to.

For the record, while we're on the topic, i have also battled against pedophiliic tendencies, that I no longer have, due to self control. I think the issue is whether we control our minds, or not, to follow God's hukam.

Sat Sri Akal to all.


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## CaramelChocolate (Aug 26, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have been bisexual and homosexual.
> 
> ...


I have been heterosexual and bisexual. None lasted too long because naturally I preferred males. Any heterosexual can make themselves homosexual if they chose too.

Unlike others though, I don't have so much lust that I want to thust my body into every hole. Uncontrollable kaam is not associated with homosexuality as a homosexual who has uncontrollable kaam could easily desire children, animals and opposite sex too whilst still being a homosexual. Desire and act are two different things. Please ignore Sherab's comments as most paedophiles in the world are males going for young girls.
Sherab, please don't tell me you are the Mr Singh paedophile that was caught by The Sun newspaper a few years back and fled to India....... :shock::shock:

Sorry if my post was a little graphic but I some people on this thread make me laugh with their generalisation and idiocy.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 26, 2007)

> Dear dr.khalsa
> 
> Today i was reading an article of a girl who was raised by lesbian parents.she said that
> lesbian parents helped her to explore her sexuality and today she can proudly say that she is bisexual.could you please shed some light on this that what is exploring sexuality?
> ...



Dear Friend 

I will try to answer with best of my knowledge till now and can be wrong .Its based on my working in mental health dept

Sexuality as we know it as adult isnt that simple process that happen in human life just like many other process that we take just foregranted and simple as it is 

The final sexuality of somebody is dependant on two factors 

Genotipic aasingnment of sex at time of inception of child in mother i.e XY(Male )  XX ( female)

But unfoutunately and obviously at time of birth we cant differentiate Male from Female child just on looks they are same except the different genitilia But if genitilia are ambiguos OR Sometime misleading due to other genetic defects related to hormone and hormone receptors , a child could be raised with diffrent Sexuality label by Parents/Caretaker 

I am telling all this to make it clear that Identifying with sexuality is also greately influenced bythe conditioning that child is put into all these years till he become sexualy active  So Conditioning play important ( but not the only ) role in final crystallisation of sex 

On example from my experience : I have seen a 14 year old child which consulted hospital for absense of menstural cycle while all her freinds were having it .She was furthe investigated  and on examination her appeared to have normal female genitilia 
BUT!! on Ultrasound everthing turned upside down as there was no uterus( womb) present in child and also undesended Testes were found in Abdomen On Karyotyping the child was established to be MALE with XY Genotype . But as since birth his genitilia were misleading to his parents and to him and he was raised as female child and he had no problen with that at all Untill this day 


Now coming to your query 

exploring Sexuality could means to explore which way you feel more confortable in terms of sexuality 

Its just escaping the generalised conditioning in Society which is more possible in house where it is allowed to be lesbian

In my understanding Sexuality is to just the  Physical act  and has other emotions/Drama assosiated with  so in other words it could be tool to somebody just for physical gratification while to someother it could serve as tool to seek other gratifications related to emotional drama and stuff so in this later case one could seek to assosiated with either of the sex to serve its purpose ans can be called Bisexual 


Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## Sherab (Aug 26, 2007)

CaramelChocolate said:


> I have been heterosexual and bisexual. None lasted too long because naturally I preferred males. Any heterosexual can make themselves homosexual if they chose too.
> 
> Unlike others though, I don't have so much lust that I want to thust my body into every hole. Uncontrollable kaam is not associated with homosexuality as a homosexual who has uncontrollable kaam could easily desire children, animals and opposite sex too whilst still being a homosexual. Desire and act are two different things. Please ignore Sherab's comments as most paedophiles in the world are males going for young girls.
> Sherab, please don't tell me you are the Mr Singh paedophile that was caught by The Sun newspaper a few years back and fled to India....... :shock::shock:
> ...


haha, no, i am a white, american male..


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## kds1980 (Aug 29, 2007)

Dr. khalsa wrote


> On example from my experience : I have seen a 14 year old child which consulted hospital for absense of menstural cycle while all her freinds were having it .She was furthe investigated and on examination her appeared to have normal female genitilia
> BUT!! on Ultrasound everthing turned upside down as there was no uterus( womb) present in child and also undesended Testes were found in Abdomen On Karyotyping the child was established to be MALE with XY Genotype . But as since birth his genitilia were misleading to his parents and to him and he was raised as female child and he had no problen with that at all Untill this day



your example is entirely different from what i read about gender identity on net.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AboutOurKids.org | NYU Child Study Center Grand Rounds Summary

Dr. Reiner's project attempted to evaluate this treatment. His work focused on 36 patients, ages 5 to 16 who are genetically male, but were born with no, or virtually no, phallus. They were assessed for physical, behavioral, and attitudinal variables related to gender identity. Twenty-seven of these males had Cloacal Exstrophy (CE), a condition in which there are several structural birth defects, including a virtual absence of the *****, but hormone levels are not affected (fetuses are exposed to a normal amount of androgen in utero and the testes are normal). As CE occurs in only 1 in every 250,000 live births, the participants represented 20% of all children in the United States and Canada with CE in this age range. 

Two of the participants were raised as male and 34 were raised as females. All showed strong male-typical behaviors and attitudes. Of the 34 raised as females, none showed female-typical behaviors or typical female heterosexual interests. Nineteen of the 34 had assigned themselves back to male and 76% of the 34 said they would rather be a male life-long if possible. All of those patients over 15 who were currently living as male had been involved in heterosexual relationships.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> In my understanding Sexuality is to just the Physical act and has other emotions/Drama assosiated with so in other words it could be tool to somebody just for physical gratification while to someother it could serve as tool to seek other gratifications related to emotional drama and stuff so in this later case one could seek to assosiated with either of the sex to serve its purpose ans can be called Bisexual



What i understand is that you are saying that sexuality differ from person to person for some sexuality = physical gratification while for other it could physical+ emotional = emotional gratification


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## drkhalsa (Aug 29, 2007)

http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/grandrounds9-29-00.html


> AboutOurKids.org | NYU Child Study Center Grand Rounds Summary
> 
> Dr. Reiner's project attempted to evaluate this treatment. His work focused on 36 patients, ages 5 to 16 who are genetically male, but were born with no, or virtually no, phallus. They were assessed for physical, behavioral, and attitudinal variables related to gender identity. Twenty-seven of these males had Cloacal Exstrophy (CE), a condition in which there are several structural birth defects, including a virtual absence of the *****, but hormone levels are not affe



Dear friend 

This man has done stuctured study I guess and I had given just example of one patient I have seen. So obviously study stands better chance of reaching conclusion 

BUT even in this study it is notable that only 74 % of the the genetic male wanted to live as Male ( which is obviously expected as they are basically male with male hormones)
WHILE BIG 26 % still left out of such decision and this is more significant and important why ?... because this not expected as all are male and with hormones but just their conditioning has made then like this

So eve in your example it says the same thing although with figures and in more structured way


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## kds1980 (Aug 29, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear friend
> 
> This man has done stuctured study I guess and I had given just example of one patient I have seen. So obviously study stands better chance of reaching conclusion
> 
> ...


http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/grandrounds9-29-00.html
Dr. khalsa ji you didn,t clicked on the link

Dr. Reiner's project attempted to evaluate this treatment. His work focused on 36 patients, ages 5 to 16 who are genetically male,

It means some of them are quite small

his example also stated that

Of the 34 raised as females, none showed female-typical behaviors or typical female heterosexual interests.

also the doctor's conclusion is
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Reiner argues that these findings suggest that the original hypothesis of gender identity - that there is gender neutrality at birth and a child's rearing determines her gender identity - is false. When hormonally normal males are brought up as females, they continue to exhibit male-typical behaviors. Dr. Reiner argues that when we try to scientifically study gender, we are first assuming that gender exists. This is an intuitive, not a scientific, belief. In fact, there is no way to empirically, objectively measure gender. The error of sex assignment lies in the belief that we can scientifically determine something which, by its nature, can not be measured or observed. Gender is an internal reality and can only be intuited by the person.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it means a person's upbringing has no impact on its gender


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## drkhalsa (Aug 29, 2007)

Dear KDS1980

Please escuse me for short reply as I am quite bust these days .We can discuss these in details sometime 

About the study : my firend its not easy to really get what the study wants to teel and its practicle implications .It takes many years to train mind of medical students and doctors to understand how to read such studies for use in clinical practice I am still in the learning priocess and I expect that you alos wont be able to get good conclusions preety easily 

Siad all that I have read the page you posted link : few main points

1) There is general agreement about how enviornment effects genderidentity and this study tries to to give alternative hypothesis Its still hypotheses and one study just cant make new rule sin medical science 
2) even going by study to be absolute perfect study model( which is always immpossible) you statement 





> So it means a person's upbringing has no impact on its gender


still stands wrong !

why yur statement is based on these lines I guess



> Of           the 34 raised  as females, none showed female-typical behaviors or           typical female heterosexual  interests. Nineteen of the 34 had assigned           themselves back to male and  76% of the 34 said they would rather be           a male life-long if possible.  All of those patients over 15 who were           currently living as male had  been involved in heterosexual relationships.



these lines are not telling anything definate in medical terms in all these patients  there is normal production of Testosterone ( instead of predominant  estrogen ) to definaely 100% od them are expected and should be showing male characters and typical male sexual interest even if single patient out of it shows something otherwise IT IS HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT because even in presence of male hormones there enviornment made impact and this what is important not that in presense of testosterone all showed male charcters( it is obvious thing that should happen ).I know that study shows that no participants showed female charcter but wordused is TYPICAL and also there is no explanation in study why remaning 26 % of patients after knowing all this about their male thing dont want to revert back to male lifestyle 


> 76% of the 34 said they would rather be a male life-long if possible



why study not say anything about it .This is shows the imperfection of study ( just like all studies done in such rare disease)

YOUR STAEMENT CAN BEST MODIFIED AS 
ENVIORNMENT DOES NOT HAVE THE DECIDING IMPACT ON SEXUALITY ( as far as I know no literaure says otherwise )



All about this post DOES NOT HAVE MUCH TO RELATE TO HOMOSEXULAITY AS THREAD IS ABOUT IT SO ALL THESE POST ARE DEVIATION FROM IT AS ALL THESE PATIENTS ARE ABNORMAL PHYSICALY AND NOT HOMOSEXUAL IN ANY WAY 


THE ONLY STATEMENT SIGNIFICANT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE STUDY WAS 



> The error of sex assignment lies in the belief that            we can scientifically determine something which, by its nature, can            not be measured or observed. Gender is an internal reality and can only            be intuited by the person.





Also important statement is :


> The best a physician can do is to choose the            likeliest gender, while remaining open to the idea that this choice            may be wrong. The physician and the family should be flexible, observant,            and listen to the child.



If we go by your earlier conclusion then there is no room left for option and everybody should be advised to go by genetic gender but  Dr William G. Reiner does not think so as clearly evident fronm this statement 


I dont know whether I have explained something  or created more confusion .in later case I m sorry 



Jatinder SIngh


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## kds1980 (Sep 12, 2007)

Lesbian marriage falls apart in Punjab, one booked

Batala (Punjab): A 'marriage' between two girls near this Punjab town went terribly wrong on Thursday with the 'boy' in the relationship slitting her wrists in an attempted suicide bid, but ending up being booked by the police.

The 'drama' of this lesbian marriage — the second one to be highlighted in Punjab — unfolded on Thursday in the court of the sub-divisional magistrate when Rajwinder Kaur — the 'girl' in the marriage — gave a statement that she no longer wanted to live with the 'boy', Baljit Kaur.

Rajwinder and Baljit, belonging to Hassanpur Khurd and Hassanpur Kalan villages respectively, had run away from their homes last month and had secretly married on June 3. They disclosed their marriage on June 13 and started living together in Patiala.

Pressure started to build on both the girls to separate, especially from the family of Rajwinder. Rajwinder's family brought her back from Patiala and produced her before the SDM after lodging a complaint against Baljit for cheating her.

After Rajwinder recorded her statement, Baljit got hysterical and ran outside the courtroom and slit her wrists to protest the separation. Alert policemen in the court complex caught hold of Baljit and gave her first aid. 

She was rushed to a nearby government hospital for treatment. Baljit was later booked by the Batala police for attempted suicide. District police chief R Dhoke said Baljit was recovering from her suicide bid and had been booked.

The SDM had earlier asked the families of the two girls to take them back to their respective homes. Baljit said Rajwinder had been forced to give statements against her under pressure from her family. "We are totally in love," she screamed.

Rajwinder's family members alleged that Baljit, who used to dress like men, had hoodwinked their daughter into this 'unholy' alliance by promising to take her to Canada. "She was cheated to get into this relationship by the promise of going to Canada," Rajwinder's father Bir Singh said.

Police officials said they were investigating all angles of this 'unique' case. Another lesbian marriage between two girls in Amritsar city, 60 km from here, had ended earlier this year after two-and-a-half years of the marriage.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 27, 2007)

Gurfateh



The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Show me 5 or 10 references where it says you cannot take heroine or methadone.


 
Bhai this is your domin so rather help das to find. These 10 to 5 quotes also regarding drugs.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 27, 2007)

Guru Sahib makes it clear and says anything harming you mind is no good thus heroine and methadone are rejected unless for medical reason. People are homosexuals because they got control issues and other mental issues. Just like a nasha addict can't be Sikh, a homosexual can't be sikh.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Guru Sahib makes it clear and says anything harming you mind is no good thus heroine and methadone are rejected unless for medical reason. People are homosexuals because they got control issues and other mental issues. Just like a nasha addict can't be Sikh, a homosexual can't be sikh.


 

people are homosexuals because of control issues and mental issues?  do you live in the middle ages?

can you show me proof of this bizarre theory?


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥ ਸੀਲੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਸੁਚ ਭੰਨੀ ਖਾਣਾ ਖਾਜੁ ਅਹਾਜੁ ॥ ਸਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਪਤਿ ਉਠਿ ਚਲੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਸਚਾ ਭਾਲਿ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1243}


Shabad above makes it clear the sodomy and homosexuality is against Gurmat. Won't two men indulge in sodomy? Sikhi isn't based on dasam granth which says good to sodomy. Dasam Granth kanjars can establish their own religion by only focusing on dasam granth. Call it bachitter natak granth as dasam granth writers called it. Don't call it Dasam Granth. Don't defame name of my 10th Paatshah by linking him to garbage.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥ ਸੀਲੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਸੁਚ ਭੰਨੀ ਖਾਣਾ ਖਾਜੁ ਅਹਾਜੁ ॥ ਸਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਪਤਿ ਉਠਿ ਚਲੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਸਚਾ ਭਾਲਿ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1243}
> 
> 
> Shabad above makes it clear the sodomy and homosexuality is against Gurmat. Won't two men indulge in sodomy? Sikhi isn't based on dasam granth which says good to sodomy. Dasam Granth kanjars can establish their own religion by only focusing on dasam granth. Call it bachitter natak granth as dasam granth writers called it. Don't call it Dasam Granth. Don't defame name of my 10th Paatshah by linking him to garbage.


 

perhaps my translation is innacurate, but i don't see anything about sodomy there:

Rannā ho&shy;ī&shy;ā boḏẖī&shy;ā puras ho&shy;ė sa&shy;ī&shy;āḏ. 
Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters. 
Sīl sanjam sucẖ bẖannī kẖāṇā kẖāj ahāj. 
Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food. 
Saram ga&shy;i&shy;ā gẖar āpṇai paṯ uṯẖ cẖalī nāl. 
Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her. 
Nānak sacẖā ėk hai a&shy;or na sacẖā bẖāl. ||2|| 
O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true. ||2|| 

please don't allow yourself to be brainwashed by the christian/muslim tradition...  they've destroyed enough of indian culture already. 

i still see nothing in gurbani which is against homosexuality.  sikhi is about accepting people as God made them, not condemning them for being different than you.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

It has nothing to do with how God made someone. Those who rape are also made by God. They can in no means be called Sikhs. Those who have greed issues and kill are also made by God, they can't be called Sikhs. Same way, homosexuals can't be called Sikhs. They should get treatment and fix themselves instead of asking for rights. This is same for drugs addicts and cannabis addcits. God made them excuse doesn't work. There are countless shabads which talk about husband and wife. Who is husband and who is wife in between homosexuals? This is just dirty and low life.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

Thos English translations are wrong. It is about women becoming lesbians and men becoming homosexuals. Guru Sahib says it has to do with disease of the mind so it is personal choice in the end. Doesn't matter.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> It has nothing to do with how God made someone. Those who rape are also made by God. They can in no means be called Sikhs. Those who have greed issues and kill are also made by God, they can't be called Sikhs. Same way, homosexuals can't be called Sikhs. They should get treatment and fix themselves instead of asking for rights. This is same for drugs addicts and cannabis addcits. God made them excuse doesn't work. There are countless shabads which talk about husband and wife. Who is husband and who is wife in between homosexuals? This is just dirty and low life.


 

why do you keep associating homosexuality with mental disorders and addictions?  

homosexuality is genetic.  god created them this way.  they're following their true nature.  the fact that you do not follow this nature does not make it wrong.

husband and wife are words we use to describe roles we have in life.  it is very possible for a man to fulfil a wife's role (except for childbirth, of course), or a woman to fulfil a husband's role.  they're simply words, they do not necessarily describe gender.


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 28, 2007)

I would like to know who wrote the quote just given as it talks about 'forbidden' food and the modesty of women... a Muslim perhaps? I tried to find out but no avail.
Sodomy is a Christian concept referring to non-procreative sexual acts. This includes kissing, oral sex, anal sex and vaginal sex with contraceptives, ANY pious Sikhs who have a sahagrat (sp?) on their wedding night and consumate and do not conceive immediately are comitting a grave sin and are no longer Sikhs by your definition.
The definition of a Sikh was completely different at the time of Guru Nanak. Muslims and Hindus prayed at HarMandir Saheb and Muslims even did salat inside the Gurdwara. The Gurdwara is not simply for a small amount of people, Sikhism is a syncretic religion and can be interpreted in many ways so deal with it. However at the core of it all is the message of non-duality - There is nothing that is not God.
My friend you have been indoctrinated with the puritanical colonial form of Sikhism.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Thos English translations are wrong. It is about women becoming lesbians and men becoming homosexuals. Guru Sahib says it has to do with disease of the mind so it is personal choice in the end. Doesn't matter.


 

please give me the correct translation.  or please suggest a location where i can find accurate translations.  i have been using www.srigranth.org for translations, and it contains translations by several scholars.  but if there is a better source i am always open to learning more.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

CaramelChocolate said:


> I would like to know who wrote the quote just given as it talks about 'forbidden' food and the modesty of women... a Muslim perhaps? I tried to find out but no avail.


 

actually, it was from Guru Nanak Dev ji, as indicated by: ਮਃ ੧ ॥  or First Mehl.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

I will translate it when i get time. There are other shabads which reject any sexual intercourse which is against nature. God made man and wife and made female organs and male organs. Male with mail is unnatural and is result of deficiencies.

E.g. Many kids in punjab are born as drug addicts due to their parents. Do we give them Amrit and make them Khalsas? Everyone will say no unless the person is a druggy himself or herself.

Same way why do we have to leave Gurmat and attract homosexuals? I saw an advertisement in Punjabi newspaper which said they got cure for homoseuxality.

Rozana Spokesman Online........

So get the disease cured or help find the medicine. Don't promote the disease due to nature excuse.

Nature is what is normal. Normal is male and female attraction. Male and male isn't nature but against nature.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> I will translate it when i get time. There are other shabads which reject any sexual intercourse which is against nature. God made man and wife and made female organs and male organs. Male with mail is unnatural and is result of deficiencies.
> 
> E.g. Many kids in punjab are born as drug addicts due to their parents. Do we give them Amrit and make them Khalsas? Everyone will say no unless the person is a druggy himself or herself.
> 
> ...


 
ahh...  now i get it.  the spokesman says it's a disease so it must be so!

forget these stupid western doctors, they don't know anything. 


i'll stop arguing with you on this issue, i know you will not be convinced.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

Hahahaha!
I know because only truth can convince me. Scientists often make blunders.


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Hahahaha!
> I know because only truth can convince me. Scientists often make blunders.


People like you do not want the truth. You hold onto your prejudices because going against them means a rejection of the very norms you have been indoctrinated to believe are true.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Hahahaha!
> I know because only truth can convince me. Scientists often make blunders.


 

the spokesman is truth???  

interesting...  wasn't the editor excommunicated from the sikh panth?  

perhaps we have different ideas of what truth is.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

Akaal Takht issued a hukamnama saying no gay marriages allowed. What happens to hukamnama when it applied yo you?


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## Randip Singh (Nov 28, 2007)

If we accept that marriage or a relationship is the Union of two souls and the soul is genderless then what does the external shell matter i.e. male or female?


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## Sherab (Nov 28, 2007)

randip singh said:


> If we accept that marriage or a relationship is the Union of two souls and the soul is genderless then what does the external shell matter i.e. male or female?



The soul is considered, actually, female for all 

The male is the One Lord.

However, for best purposes, although the soul is genderless - to have a family, and leave the life of a householder - it is suggested that it be between male and female.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Akaal Takht issued a hukamnama saying no gay marriages allowed. What happens to hukamnama when it applied yo you?


 

well, first of all, it doesn't apply to me, because i'm married to a man.  but if akal takht says no, then that's fine with me, i will follow them.

i just don't believe in twisting gurbani to suit my own personal agenda.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

Soul is genderless. Body isn't. Don't try to act smart. As for Takht hukam, yes hukamnama was issued last year and every Panthic organization agreed with it.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 28, 2007)

I am not here to debate how body and soul are related and stuff because I got other projects to complete. If someone has more issues, take the matter to Akaal Takht.


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## CaramelChocolate (Nov 29, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Akaal Takht issued a hukamnama saying no gay marriages allowed. What happens to hukamnama when it applied yo you?


No they issued an Islam-style fatwa so they wouldn't have to address the issue of homosexuality. Hukamnama is a quote from SGGS at random. SGGS is not a moral code book, it is in praise of God - go figure.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Nov 29, 2007)

CaramelChocolate said:


> No they issued an Islam-style fatwa so they wouldn't have to address the issue of homosexuality. Hukamnama is a quote from SGGS at random. SGGS is not a moral code book, it is in praise of God - go figure.


 
I skate but don't figure skate. However, Panth also has authority to issue hukamnama based on teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Sahib was against anything which isn't natural. Being gay isn't natural or most people would be gay. It is a deficeincy and occurs due to paap karam in previous joons. Best way to fix is to live in hukam of Guru and not be gay instead of asking for rights to marriage. If people can choose to be celebates, people can choose to not be gay. We have different bathrooms for men and women, what about gays who like to look at men? Shows how bad gay thing is. Moral corruption to the max just like tria chariters.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

CaramelChocolate said:


> I would like to know who wrote the quote just given as it talks about 'forbidden' food and the modesty of women... a Muslim perhaps? I tried to find out but no avail.
> Sodomy is a Christian concept referring to non-procreative sexual acts. This includes kissing, oral sex, anal sex and vaginal sex with contraceptives, ANY pious Sikhs who have a sahagrat (sp?) on their wedding night and consumate and do not conceive immediately are comitting a grave sin and are no longer Sikhs by your definition.
> The definition of a Sikh was completely different at the time of Guru Nanak. Muslims and Hindus prayed at HarMandir Saheb and Muslims even did salat inside the Gurdwara. The Gurdwara is not simply for a small amount of people, Sikhism is a syncretic religion and can be interpreted in many ways so deal with it. However at the core of it all is the message of non-duality - There is nothing that is not God.
> My friend you have been indoctrinated with the puritanical colonial form of Sikhism.



I don't understand why do you bring the issue of sikhism at the time of guru nanak.
In this way all religions can be questioned 

1)What was the defination of christian at the time of christ?

2)What was the defination of muslim at the time of muhammed?

3)What was the defination of hindu 2500 years ago

4)What was the defination of buddhist at the time of buddha

The muslims and hindu's that were following guru nanak were as good in the eye of their religion.As a good sikh following ram, rahim or any other dera


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

CaramelChocolate said:


> No they issued an Islam-style fatwa so they wouldn't have to address the issue of homosexuality. Hukamnama is a quote from SGGS at random. SGGS is not a moral code book, it is in praise of God - go figure.



Well the panth has the authority to decide what is good ,and what is bad for community.


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## KulwantK (Nov 29, 2007)

Sat Nam and Greetings to all!
Obviously, this question has struck a chord in many.  Any question having to do with sex and sexuality will of course be of concern.
When ever I find myself confronted with anything that could be controversial within my thoughts and feelings about it, or controversial between my views and someone else's, I have always found comfort in what Guru Nanak Ji said, "If you cannot see God in All, you cannot see God at all."
That being said, here are some thoughts on this topic.
Sex is, of course, of concern for obvious reasons.  Anytime anyone wishes to engage in sexual practices it is ideally in a responsible manner, and it is not something to be engaged in or thought about lightly or casually.  We all know the sad consequences of promiscuity(regardless of orientations or genders involved)- the unplanned pregnancies, the transmission of diseases, the psychological damages, and the commodification of human beings into objects, to name a few.  As regards homosexuality, one way to really explore just exactly how you feel about it, and how you think and feel about it in relation to Sikhism and religion in general is to engage in a mental exercize and pretend that one of your siblings, or one of your best friends, or other relative, has just told you that he or she is homosexual.  Then see what your thoughts are, and how you feel.
This really did in actually happen to me.  One of my cousins told me she is homosexual.  She is also a devout Christian.  She was very hesitant to tell me.  I hugged her and asked her, "Why did you feel so reluctant to tell me?  Did you think I would stop loving you?  I will always love you, you are dear to me, and I want for your highest good and happiness in all ways!"  She told me she was so happy to hear that, but that she was worried about what the people in her church would think.  I told her that her relationship with God is the First Relationship, and that my feelings about that matter are that as long as she has the relationship with the Divine as her most important relationship, and stayed in close contact with God always, that all other matters would be taken care of, and she need not to worry.  I told her about how we Sikhs are to keep Nam Simran, and that she might think about doing the same.  This was 2 years ago, and she is doing well, and does her own Nam Simran, in a Christian context.  Interestingly enough, about a year ago, a Sikh lady told me she was homosexual, too, and was also hesitant to say anything to anyone.  I hugged her and told her much the same thing as I told my cousin, that the Relationship with God and Guru is the most important, and reminded her of what Guru Nanak Ji said, and she was very much happy with that.  So, it is a delicate subject indeed, but on a very personal level, I cannot not love someone and I cannot condemn anyone just because they are homosexual... indeed, basically everyone is a brother or sister of mine in the eyes of the Divine, including anyone reading this, and, as my cousin would say, We are all God's children anyway!
Blessings to all,
Kulwant


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## Randip Singh (Nov 29, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Soul is genderless. Body isn't. Don't try to act smart. As for Takht hukam, yes hukamnama was issued last year and every Panthic organization agreed with it.




Khalsa Fauj refrain from personal remarks. You will not get away with them on this forum.

There are many other hukamnama's and edicts and aspects of the Rehit Maryada that you do not agree with, so why this? Does it fit in with in with some preconcieved prejudices you havve? Or is there actually something in Bani that confirms this?


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## Randip Singh (Nov 29, 2007)

Sherab said:


> The soul is considered, actually, female for all
> 
> The male is the One Lord.
> 
> However, for best purposes, although the soul is genderless - to have a family, and leave the life of a householder - it is suggested that it be between male and female.



So you are saying purpose of male and female relationship is to have children? So what about couples who cannot have children? Their relationship is surely based on Kaam is it not?

Also I am curious to know where it says between a male and a female. 

PS I have changed my view on this isssue some 7 years ago.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 29, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> I skate but don't figure skate. However, Panth also has authority to issue hukamnama based on teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Sahib was against anything which isn't natural. Being gay isn't natural or most people would be gay. It is a deficeincy and occurs due to paap karam in previous joons. Best way to fix is to live in hukam of Guru and not be gay instead of asking for rights to marriage. If people can choose to be celebates, people can choose to not be gay. We have different bathrooms for men and women, what about gays who like to look at men? Shows how bad gay thing is. Moral corruption to the max just like tria chariters.



I find it incredible that such remarks can be made in the 21st century.

Prove from Bani that Guruji has categorically stated Homosexuality is paap and unatural behaviour? I want quotes and passages from Bani.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

Dr.khalsa wrote


> In my understanding Sexuality is not just the Physical act and has other emotions/Drama assosiated with so in other words it could be tool to somebody just for physical gratification while to someother it could serve as tool to seek other gratifications related to emotional drama and stuff so in this later case one could seek to assosiated with either of the sex to serve its purpose ans can be called Bisexual


Dear dr khalsa ji

FRom your earlier statement i have a question.if you don't mind please answer it.If homosexuality is allowed freely in society then is it not possible that many straight would inclined toward bisexuality as you saaid that for some it is a physical act and for others
emotional drama associated with it.What will the impact on society if homosexuality is freely allowed?


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## ISDhillon (Nov 29, 2007)

> What will the impact on society if homosexuality is freely allowed?


 
Sexual diversity is the simple answer. Diversity is diversity, the same way people practice different religions yet they do not have a negative impact on society, its only when one religions says that the god I love must be loved by all then we have a problem cos not all people can love god through one religion. Animals dont seem to be experiencing a negative impact on their societies I dont see why humans question sexual diversity in their societies. Again I reiterate that sikhism does not entertain any judgement on sexual diversity let alone homosexuality. Tria chariter is beautiful I suggest you all read it and learn from its message, the message is that sexuality is a part of the human condition we all have to be satisfied so lets not put up pretend obstacles like shame and sin blah blah blah.

Have a sexually gratifying day

Indy


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 29, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> I skate but don't figure skate. However, Panth also has authority to issue hukamnama based on teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Sahib was against anything which isn't natural. Being gay isn't natural or most people would be gay. It is a deficeincy and occurs due to paap karam in previous joons. Best way to fix is to live in hukam of Guru and not be gay instead of asking for rights to marriage. If people can choose to be celebates, people can choose to not be gay. We have different bathrooms for men and women, what about gays who like to look at men? Shows how bad gay thing is. Moral corruption to the max just like tria chariters.


 

hmm, i guess having blue eyes is also unnatural or most people would have blue eyes!  

lol...  that's a pretty weak argument...   

best way to fix it is to not be gay?  and maybe i should turn my eyes brown so they'll look more like yours?  

this is just weird.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 29, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Dr.khalsa wrote
> 
> 
> Dear dr khalsa ji
> ...


 

homosexuality IS freely allowed in western society, and it hasn't destroyed us yet...     and no, i don't think it drives people to bisexuality.   lol...  being gay is natural, IF YOU"RE GAY.  it's NOT natural if you're STRAIGHT.  why is this so difficult to understand?  homosexuals are not christians, they don't go around converting people.    you have nothing to worry about from them.  look at violence involving homosexuals and you'll see that 95% of it is directed AT them from homo-phobic straight people.  it's not them doing anything wrong.

they're not going to hurt you, destroy the family unit, or corrupt the world.  they're just people, like you or me.  they just have a different genetic makeup.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> homosexuality IS freely allowed in western society, and it hasn't destroyed us yet...     and no, i don't think it drives people to bisexuality.   lol...  being gay is natural, IF YOU"RE GAY.  it's NOT natural if you're STRAIGHT.  why is this so difficult to understand?  homosexuals are not christians, they don't go around converting people.    you have nothing to worry about from them.  look at violence involving homosexuals and you'll see that 95% of it is directed AT them from homo-phobic straight people.  it's not them doing anything wrong.
> 
> they're not going to hurt you, destroy the family unit, or corrupt the world.  they're just people, like you or me.  they just have a different genetic makeup.



Are you sure it is freely allowed in western society? if i am not wrong america still does not recognises gay marriages.


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## drkhalsa (Nov 29, 2007)

Dear KDS 

It is hard to say for me personally what impact will it have if its allowed freely .But I guess it will be alright 

About Gay Marriage thing , it is more of the Church problem than legal problem . Officially Various Churches deny this facility to Homosexuals


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 29, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Are you sure it is freely allowed in western society? if i am not wrong america still does not recognises gay marriages.


 

you are right, because of religious pressures, gay marriages are not legal in most states in the US (it is in some states).  but as dr ji said, this is more of a religious based restriction.  the christian church unfortunately has a very strong position in US politics.

however, that does not mean that gay culture is not accepted by the majority of americans.  we have gay governers and congressmen, we have gay couples on television and in movies...  and attacks on homosexuals are prosecuted as hate crimes, just like attacks on any other minority group.

besides that, the US isn't the whole western world...  gay marriage is recognizesd in many major western countries, including canada.

it's weird that india is so comfortable with hermaphrodites/eunichs, but can't handle homosexuality.

just curious, but are hermaphrodites barred from being sikhs?


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

> it's weird that india is so comfortable with hermaphrodites/eunichs, but can't handle homosexuality.
> 
> just curious, but are hermaphrodites barred from being sikhs?



Comfortable,,  eunuchs in india live as outcaste.They are not part of any indian society.Majority of them earn their living by extracting money on occassions like marriage,childbirth etc. The reason i am saying that they extract money because if you don't give them then threaten you that they will use cheap tactics like throwing urine,removing their clothes etc People either make fun of them or are afraid of them because there are stories that they take young boys and then castrate them and these stories are not false.On tv some eunuchs themselves accepted that they were boys and some euncuchs forcibally castrated them.

As far as sikhs are concerned i don't know because they have very secrative society in which they practice religions.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear KDS
> 
> It is hard to say for me personally what impact will it have if its allowed freely .But I guess it will be alright
> 
> About Gay Marriage thing , it is more of the Church problem than legal problem . Officially Various Churches deny this facility to Homosexuals



In my opinion accepting open homosexuality is not good for society especially country like india.If it become's cool and fashion among teenagers then they will induldge  freely in this without even properly knowing whether they are homosexual or not.
.Indulging in sexual activity with opposite sex is  difficuilt because soceity do have restrictions like Boys and girls  have separate bathrooms,they don't share common rooms etc.But its going to be much easier with same sex.WE all know that our body grow early and mind takes its time to get mature.If someone is homosexual then he/she should do whatever behind close door But for the sake of soceity  open homosexuality is not good.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> you are right, because of religious pressures, gay marriages are not legal in most states in the US (it is in some states).  but as dr ji said, this is more of a religious based restriction.  the christian church unfortunately has a very strong position in US politics.
> 
> however, that does not mean that gay culture is not accepted by the majority of americans.  we have gay governers and congressmen, we have gay couples on television and in movies...  and attacks on homosexuals are prosecuted as hate crimes, just like attacks on any other minority group.
> 
> ...



In india we do watch hollywood movies like spiderman,pirates of carribian etc and american family tv shows.In these they never show gay relationships.I want to know
do they have started showing gay relationships in family,children's shows or homosexual relationship's are restricted for adult's shows only.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 29, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> In india we do watch hollywood movies like spiderman,pirates of carribian etc and american family tv shows.In these they never show gay relationships.I want to know
> do they have started showing gay relationships in family,children's shows or homosexual relationship's are restricted for adult's shows only.


 

there are homosexuals on regular prime-time television in the US.  it's not hidden, and it's not for "adults only".  you're looking at it from a purely sexual standpoint, which is not really fair.

they're people, just like you or me.  just because they prefer not to have intercourse with the opposite sex doesn't make them into sex-maniac monsters.

for example, there's a popular "style" show called "queer eye for the straight guy", where 5 gay men transform a straight man through fashion, home design, cooking, grooming, and culture.  it's a huge hit and very entertaining.  in the show, gay men are shown as "culturally superior" and straight guys look like idiots. 

there's the long running (and very popular) "will and grace", about the friendship between a gay man and a straight woman.

here's a list of gay positive television shows/characters on american broadcast television:

2006 - 2007 Gay and Lesbian TV

note, this isn't cable, this is normal television that kids watch too.    if you include cable (more adult focused) you'll find tons more!

it's really pretty much a part of mainstream life here.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

> they're people, just like you or me. just because they prefer not to have intercourse with the opposite sex doesn't make them into sex-maniac monsters.



Well i am not at all saying that they are sex maniac monsters.I agree with it that they are people like you and me.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 18, 2007)

Gurfateh


The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Guru Sahib makes it clear and says anything harming you mind is no good thus heroine and methadone are rejected unless for medical reason. People are homosexuals because they got control issues and other mental issues. Just like a nasha addict can't be Sikh, a homosexual can't be sikh.


 Bhai is there any thing ours so how can be "our mind" be our.

Mera Mujh Mai KiChh Nahi,Jo Kichh Hai so Tera.In me nothing is mine but what so ever is yours(Oh Akal).

All thinggs are in the control of Akal.

Sabh Ko Tere Vas.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 18, 2007)

--------------UNVERIFIABLE SHABAD DELETED----------------

If you can't aarth a shabad properly, I suggest not posting it.
You have to understand the meaning of the shabad.

However, I don't even know why the above shabad is posted other than the fact that you probably didn't have anything to do so you posted a shabad to stir up a debate.


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## Randip Singh (Dec 18, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> What will you do about karmee aapoo aapnee?
> What will you do about durmat mad jo peevtay biklee pat kamlee?
> 
> If you can't aarth a shabad properly, I suggest not posting it.
> ...



please post page numbers of bani where yiu got these lines and the entire shabad.

Thanks


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 18, 2007)

Find them yourself. Also check out.

Runaa Hoaeaa Boadheeaa, Purash Hoaye Saeeaad.


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## clarkejoey (Dec 18, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Find them yourself. Also check out.
> 
> Runaa Hoaeaa Boadheeaa, Purash Hoaye Saeeaad.


 
Do you want others to understand what you're talking about, or are you being obscure on purpose?


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## Randip Singh (Dec 18, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> Find them yourself. Also check out.
> 
> Runaa Hoaeaa Boadheeaa, Purash Hoaye Saeeaad.



If you do not post the page numbers we will dlete them as non verifiable. The choice is yours.

Please keep a civil tongue on this forum. This is your final warning.


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## Randip Singh (Dec 18, 2007)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Bhai is there any thing ours so how can be "our mind" be our.
> 
> ...




Please post page numbers with that quote. Thanks.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Dec 19, 2007)

randip singh said:


> If you do not post the page numbers we will dlete them as non verifiable. The choice is yours.
> 
> Please keep a civil tongue on this forum. This is your final warning.


 
I don't know what you mean by civil toungue because I didn't use any harsh words or foul language.

Page number is:


1243.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 19, 2007)

Gurfateh
ਪੰਨਾ 1375, ਸਤਰ 9
ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰਾ ਮੁਝ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਤੇਰਾ ॥
कबीर मेरा मुझ महि किछु नही जो किछु है सो तेरा ॥
Kabīr mėrā mujẖ meh kicẖẖ nahī jo kicẖẖ hai so ṯėrā.
Kabeer, nothing is mine within myself. Whatever there is, is Yours, O Lord.
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 19, 2007)

Gurfateh

ਪੰਨਾ 736, ਸਤਰ 4
ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ॥
मेरे हरि जीउ सभु को तेरै वसि ॥
Mėrė har jī&shy;o sabẖ ko ṯėrai vas.
O my Dear Lord, everything is in Your power.
ਮਃ 4   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Randip Singh (Dec 19, 2007)

The Khalsa Fauj said:


> I don't know what you mean by civil toungue because I didn't use any harsh words or foul language.
> 
> Page number is:
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the page number.

Discuss the topic not the person.

Regards.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 19, 2007)

Gurfateh
what about vice and virtue.
ਪੰਨਾ 325, ਸਤਰ 6
ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਦੁਇ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨ ॥
पाप पुंन दुइ एक समान ॥
Pāp punn ḏu&shy;ė ėk samān.
Sin and virtue are both the same.
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## H_Singh (Dec 23, 2007)

The Anand marriage ceremony was not something synonymous with Sikhism until early 1900's.  Just like the Hindus, Sikhs used to go around the fire.  So the Anand ceremony is not a valid argument, in my opinion, as it was a law created during the time of the British rule and was is not proclaimed by the Gurus.  Anand Marriage Act 1908.  Staying consistent with the Granth Sahib, sexuality - with the exception of lust - is not addressed so anyone can presume anything but as far as I'm concerned theres nothing wrong with homosexuality.  

Culture on the other hand dictates otherwise.  It could be fine being gay, but it may not necessarily be accepted by the society you live in or by friends and family.


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## kds1980 (Dec 23, 2007)

H_Singh said:


> The Anand marriage ceremony was not something synonymous with Sikhism until early 1900's.  Just like the Hindus, Sikhs used to go around the fire.  So the Anand ceremony is not a valid argument, in my opinion, as it was a law created during the time of the British rule and was is not proclaimed by the Gurus.  Anand Marriage Act 1908.  Staying consistent with the Granth Sahib, sexuality - with the exception of lust - is not addressed so anyone can presume anything but as far as I'm concerned theres nothing wrong with homosexuality.
> 
> Culture on the other hand dictates otherwise.  It could be fine being gay, but it may not necessarily be accepted by the society you live in or by friends and family.



Anand marriage ceremony was there before 1908

Here is the history of anand marriage ceremony

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guru Gobind Singh
Guru Gobind Singh promoted Anand Karaj. In this context, his Hukam Namahs by
various authors provides no clarification. In Reht Namah by Bhai Daya Singh 14 is
written that a Sikh should not get married by a Brahmin.. It means that Sikh should not
marry by Vedic ceremony, and should not get it done except by Anand Karaj.
Bhai Mani Singh was contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh. In Bhagtawali by
Bhai Mani Singh, under the heading Vajub-al-Araz, Guru Gobind Singh 15 advised that
marriage should be done by Anand Karaj, and after that it should be got done by
Brahmin

Nirankari Lehr
Founder of Nirankari movement Baba Dayal ji 20 (1773 – 1855 A.D.), realized that Sikhs
did not adhere to their religious practices, and these were suppressed by practices of
Hindu priests. He determined to awaken the Sikhs. In 1808 A.D. he got himself married
[19] Jiwan Marag, Dr. Kulwant Singh Khokhar, Academy of Guru Granth Studies, USA, !983-84,
Abridged from autobiography of S. Mela Singh Khokhar, 1958 A.D.
[20] Baba Dayal ji Nirankari: Dayal ji – Sikh Dharam De Sidhant, Dr. Man Singh Nirakari, referred to
above. Pages 48 to 53. Encyclopedia of Sikhism, Chief Edited Harbans Singh, Punjabi University, Patiala,
1992, Page 126.
with Shabad-Kirtan and Ardas, in Dharamsala of Sant Budhu Shah, Sewa Panthi, in
Bhera (now in Pakistan).
In 1855, his son Baba Darbara Singh Nirankari, married a couple in Nirankari
Darbar in Rawalpindi (now in Pakistan), by Anand Karaj. In this ceremony, four Lavan’
in Raag Suhi were recited, and the boy followed by girl, went around Guru Granth Sahib
with each recitation of Lavan’ (total four rounds). This Anand Karaj movement initiated
by Nirankaris faced strong opposition and difficulties, but Nirnkaris whole-heartedly
persisted in following their effort to revive Sikh procedures.
In 1855 A.D., Baba Darbara Singh married with Anand Karaj, Bhola Singh son of
Nihal Singh Kakkar, and Nihali daughter of Waheguru Singh (Hari Singh Siali, Khatri).
It was an open, fearless and united challenge to the opponents of Anand Vivah.
In 1861 A.D., Baba Darbara Singh was refused by Granthis and Pujaris of
Harimandir Sahib and Akal Takht to hold Anand Karaj in Akal Takht, Amritsar. Nothing
deterred Baba Darbara Singh. With cooperation of Thakur Gulab Singh, he performed
Anand Karaj of Boota Singh with Mira Dai daughter of Karam Singh, in the Gurdwara of
Thakur Dayal Singh, at Amritsar. It was an eye opener to Mahants and Granthis of
Harimandir Sahib, and Akal Takht, as well as was a lesson to others in Amritsar.
In the time of Baba Ratta ji Nirankari, during 1992 A.D. to 1998 A.D. Anand
marriages were performed at Lahore, and Peshawar etc. Nirnkaris pursued Anand
marriages devotedly, adding to its acceptance, practice, and popularity in the Sikh
masses.
Namdharis
Baba Ram Singh Namdhari,21 was founder of Namdhari movement. He visited Dewan of
Nirankaris. Anand Karaj was being performed. After Dewan (program in Gurdwara) was
over, Baba Ram Singh discussed the newly started Anand Vivah with Baba Darbara
Singh, and got information about this ceremony. Baba Darbara Singh asked Baba Ram
Singh to cooperate in promoting Anand Karaj. Baba Ram Singh Namdhari, adopted
Anand marriage in 1863 A.D. with the difference that Pherae (Lavan’ - going around)
were done around Vedi cum Havan.
Singh Sabha Lehr
When Namdhari Lehr was suppressed by the English Government, Singh Sabha Lehr 22
came into being in Amritsar, in 1873 A.D. Later, its branches opened at Rawalpindi, an
Lahore. Its motive was to remove all non-Sikh ceremonies from the Sikh world, and to
bring revolution in the Sikh life – living as per the Sikh dictates. They reformed working
in Gurdwaras, and day-to-day religious life of Sikhs.
In 1883, Khalsa Dewan Amritsar was established, and after that Khlsa Dewan
Lahore (1886) was formed. Due to differences in Khalsa Dewans Amritsar and Lahore,
Chief Khalsa Dewan was formed at Amritsar (1902). Its president was Bhai Sahib Arjun
[21]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## H_Singh (Dec 24, 2007)

Bhai Daya Singh rahitnama is dated to the 1800's not the time of the Guru's putting into question its authenticity.  The Namdharis produced the ceremony for themselves, it was later adopted by the entire Sikh panth.   

My point is that it was a later adoption and not something produced by or during the time of the Gurus.  Another words it was created by the Sikh community later.


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## kds1980 (Dec 24, 2007)

H_Singh said:


> Bhai Daya Singh rahitnama is dated to the 1800's not the time of the Guru's putting into question its authenticity.  The Namdharis produced the ceremony for themselves, it was later adopted by the entire Sikh panth.
> 
> My point is that it was a later adoption and not something produced by or during the time of the Gurus.  Another words it was created by the Sikh community later.



There is every possibility that anand ceremony was there at the time of guru's
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Anand Marriage Act
K. S. TALWAR
National Archives, New Delhi
Recently some attempts have been made to suggest that the Anand marriage ceremony was initiated by the Namdhari Guru Baba Ram Singh. Both Dr. Fauja Singh Bajwa and Dr. M. M. Ahluwalia in their works on the Kukas contend that the Namdhari Guru was the initiator of this form of marriage. Dr. Ahluwalia has even written that “The Namdhari sources claim that the Anand Marriages were not initiated by anybody except their Guru Ram Singh” and also that “the Anand Marriage Act was passed by the Government of India due to the efforts of the then Namdhari Satguru Pratap Singh, Tikka Ripudaman Singh of Nabha and some others.”1 A study of the papers relating to the Act does not support this sweeping contention. True, the Kuka Guru did send a letter to the Government to support the measure.2 But in this he was acting in concert with several other Sikh leaders and associations. In fact, neither he nor his followers claimed the Anand marriage to be their innovation.
The Anand ceremony “was initiated by the third Guru of the Sikhs, Guru Amar Das and the marriages of Bhai Kamlia and Matho Murari were performed in accordance therewith in the time of third and fourth Gurus, the last of whom composed the four Laawaan in the Suhi Rag of the Guru Gninth Sahih, the sacred book of the Sikhs.”3 The occasion and circumstances for the initiation of this form of marriage has been detailed in a note prepared by [?] the then professor of the Khalsa College, Lyallpur. He wrote:
Guru Amar Dass tried to barter down all the injurious caste barriers, and, incensed at this noble effort of the third Guru, the Hindus excommunicated those Sikhs of the Guru who in obedience to his teachings had ceased to observe caste. Among those Sikhs was one named Randhawa. When he wanted to marry his daughter, the Brahmins refused to come and officiate at the solemnisation of the marriage, saying that having become a Sikh of Guru Amar Das he had ceased to be a Hindu, and thus had forfeited every right to have the marriage of his daughter performed according to Hindu rituals. Upon this the Sikh went to Guru Amar Das Ji, and said he was prepared to keep his daughter unmarried, but would on no account consent to the ceremony being performed according to Hindus who were so wrath at his having given up the whimsical caste distinctions. Realizing the fix in which the Sikh was, the Guru ordered his son-in-law (afterwards Guru Ram Das Ji) to go and officiate at the marriage of the Sikh’s daughter. It was on this occasion that the four laawaan were originally composed by the fourth Guru.
The next noteworthy occasion on which the entire form prescribed conjointly by the third and fourth Gurus was observed was the marriage of the sixth. Guru’s daughter (Bibi Viro) at the village Jhabal in the Amritsar district.4
Henceforth a fair came to be held annually to commemorate this remarkable marriage. Ever since that day the Anand riti became the recognised form of marriage among the Sikhs.
This ceremony however fell into partial disuse soon after the Sikh power was established in the Punjab. Earlier and so long as they had no settled home, “the Sikhs united by the bonds of
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can read the full article on the following link.

Articles


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## KulwantK (Dec 25, 2007)

Sat Nam, everyone, and I am trusting today is finding you all well!
Oh, dear, some topics do encourage, ah, shall we say, highly active discussions, indeed!  Anything having to do with sex and sexuality of all sorts is most definitely such a topic.  I remember my relatives  telling me that certain topics of conversation were topics to be very careful with!  
Regarding this topic of homosexuality, what, exactly, is the issue here-especially for you, Khalsa Fauj?  Is the issue one of whether or not homosexuals can be Sikhs?  Please do correct me if I am wrong.  If that really is the issue,  and you ardently wish to make sure that no homosexuals are Sikhs, please do tell how such an edict should be enforced.  What would you do, and how would you do it?
Cheers,
Kulwant


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## Sikh80 (Apr 27, 2008)

I have gone through the initial posts and the last few posts and would be enlightened if there is any direct reference to homo-sexuality in the bani's of Guru Sahibaan. 

One may like to reply or ignore.I do not want to cause diversion from any issue that is being discussed.


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## k s gadh (May 7, 2008)

Sat Sri Akaal veer Kandola Ji,

I agree that God has  created everything on the earth, for the betterment of the human being.  The nature has given us everything and we should use the things given or created by the 
god in positive sense and not in negative sense.  We are selfish and think for negative use first
Bhul chuk maaf karni ji. Ham Nahin changey bura nahin koai.
Sat Sri Akaal.


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## kawalsin (Jan 16, 2009)

Dear Kandola ji,
 God did not create Homosexuality. He created humans (and everything else) and gave 'Budhi'  to distinguish between proper and improper, good and bad. What you choose is your free will, but consequences of the choice are not as per your free will. It is like a video game, all moves (right or wrong) have been pre-coded and one playing it is free to choose any move. But at the the game will be won or lost as per the moves you made. Guru Arjan Dev Ji has clarified in Basant Raag (Ang 1185) as follows:

ਬਸੰਤੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੨ ਹਿੰਡੋਲ  ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਕੇ ਹੋਵਹੁ ਜੋੜੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੈਸਹੁ  ਸਫਾ ਵਿਛਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਪਾਸਾ ਢਾਲਹੁ ਬੀਰ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਹ  ਲਾਗੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਉਪੜਿ ਸਾਜਹੁ ਸਤੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਾਰੀ ॥ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ  ਜੀਤਹੁ ਐਸੀ ਖੇਲ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥੨॥ ਉਠਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਪਰਭਾਤੇ ਸੋਏ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥ ਬਿਖੜੇ ਦਾਉ  ਲੰਘਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਤੇ ॥੩॥ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਖੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਰਚਨੁ  ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਖੇਲੈ ਸੋ ਜਿਣਿ ਬਾਜੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੯॥

BASANT,  FIFTH MEHL,  SECOND HOUSE,  HINDOL:  
ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD.  BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:  
Come and join together, O my Siblings of Destiny; dispel your sense of duality and let yourselves be lovingly absorbed in the Lord. Let yourselves be joined to the Name of the Lord; become Gurmukh, spread out your mat, and sit down.  || 1 ||   In this way, throw the dice, O brothers. As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, day and night. At the very last moment, you shall not have to suffer in pain.  || 1 ||  Pause  ||   Let righteous actions be your gameboard, and let the truth be your dice. Conquer sexual desire, anger, greed and worldly attachment; only such a game as this is dear to the Lord.  || 2 ||   Rise in the early hours of the morning, and take your cleansing bath. Before you go to bed at night, remember to worship the Lord. My True Guru will assist you, even on your most difficult moves; you shall reach your true home in celestial peace and poise.  || 3 ||   The Lord Himself plays, and He Himself watches; the Lord Himself created the creation. O servant Nanak, that person who plays this game as Gurmukh, wins the game of life, and returns to his true home.  || 4 || 1 || 19 ||

Kabir ji on Ang 1159 says:

ਇਹੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅਉਸਰੁ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਰ ॥ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਤੂ ਦੇਖੁ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਜੀਤਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਹਿਓ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ॥੫॥੧॥੯॥

This is your chance, and this is your time. Look deep into your own heart, and reflect on this. Says Kabeer, you can win or lose. In so many ways, I have proclaimed this out loud.  || 5 || 1 || 9 ||  

So Veer ji, It is your life and a chance given to you by God. Win or Lose. Choice is yours. Do not blame God later.

Daas 

Kawaljit Singh


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## Archived_Member16 (Jul 2, 2009)

*It's a 'black day', Sikh clerics slam ruling on gay sex*

*It's a 'black day', Sikh clerics slam ruling on gay sex
* 


Chandigarh, July 2 : Strongly criticising a Delhi High decriminalising homosexuality, Sikh clergy and religious leaders in Punjab Thursday called the ruling a 'black day' for mankind.

Avtar Singh Makkar, president of Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC), the apex Sikh body, told IANS: 'We are shocked on this decision of the court and directly reject its ruling. There is no need of giving a second thought to it as no religion on this earth allows such kind of disgraceful thing to prevail.' 

'It is unlawful and takes man on the path that would divert him away from God,' he added. 

A member of radical Sikh group Dal Khalsa said on condition of anonymity: 'This day should be remembered as a 'black day' in the history of mankind. We are unable to understand that how our judiciary can push the whole humanity towards deterioration, just to make a handful of eccentric and wayward individuals happy. 

Members of SGPC, which manages the affairs of Sikh shrines around the world, have strongly condemned the court ruling. 

Hardeep Singh, a SGPC member, said: 'This decision of the court is the testimony of the fact that despite achieving so many landmarks we are still under the clutches of westerners. It is really sad that we are ruining our values and beliefs by blindly following other people. 

'This will destroy the dignity of civilised society and the future of our youngsters.' 

Akal Takht, the highest temporal seat of Sikhs, is also expected to call an emergency in the state to discuss this issue. 

'This verdict of the Delhi High Court is clearly against the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib that guides us in every situation, right from our birth till death,' Giani Gurbachan Singh, head priest of Akal Takht, told IANS. 

'It is also against the law of nature. We strongly condemn this verdict, and appeal to the central government and judiciary to rethink the decision. We also appeal to Sikh community to boycott this unacceptable ruling.' 

In a judgement Thursday Delhi High Court struck down section 377 of the Indian Penal Code (IPC) that terms homosexuality a criminal act.


--- IANS


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 2, 2009)

*Re: It's a 'black day', Sikh clerics slam ruling on gay sex*

Parochial minded people playing Ik Ong Kaar and I do not mean the Court. Tsk Tsk.


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## Archived_Member16 (Jul 2, 2009)

*Re: It's a 'black day', Sikh clerics slam ruling on gay sex*

*source: EDITORIAL COMMENT | Victory For Choice - Editorial - Opinion - The Times of India*

*EDITORIAL - TIMES OF INDIA*

*Victory For Choice*

3 Jul 2009, 0000 hrs IST


In a landmark judgement, the capital's highest court has struck down an archaic provision of the Indian Penal Code (IPC) which criminalises homosexuality. It has ruled that Section 377, in so far as it penalises gay sex between consenting adults, was in violation of fundamental rights. In effect, this means that gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgenders cannot be hauled up anymore in the capital if they are adults, and engage in consensual sex. This is a welcome step forward. The criminalisation of homosexuality is a relic of the past, introduced by the British in 1861. By legalising homosexuality, the Delhi high court has restored the personal freedom and rights of homosexuals, guaranteed to them by the Indian Constitution. 

Over the past few days, there has been a renewed debate over Sec 377. When law minister Veerappa Moily recently suggested that Sec 377 could be one of the many outdated laws that needed review, critics and advocates of this law were galvanised. The government was exhorted to give the anachronistic law a burial and usher in an era of greater individual rights. We have repeatedly urged the government in these columns to stop governing our personal lives, and that includes matters of sexual choice. 

However, critics of homosexuality - some religious heads as well as self-appointed advocates of 'Indian culture' - kicked up a fuss. Their arguments - that homosexuality is unnatural, against Indian tradition, and that legalising it would lead to a spurt in HIV/AIDS cases - are neither scientific nor logical. If they wish they can exhort their followers to adopt certain sexual preferences, but they cannot argue that alternative preferences be outlawed by the IPC. One set of critics also argued that Sec 377 does not deal with adult homosexuality alone, which is a fact. The law provides cover against child abuse as well. However, we have other laws, like the one governing rape, which could be amended to deal with child abuse and rape committed against men. 

As of now, this ruling is effective in Delhi alone. Since Sec 377 is on the concurrent list, states have a say in amendment or repeal of this law. However, this historic ruling could act as a catalyst, encouraging our legislators to shed their blinkers and take a more progressive view on the issue. In 21st century India, it is perverse to penalise adults for their sexual choices.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

Look the key issue is Kaam.

If Homosexuality is based on Kaam, then it is against Sikhi.

The argument used is that Homosexual have sex for gratification and not reproduction. If that is the case then all heterosexual couples should only have sex specifically to crate children.

Fact is, if sex is part of a loving relationship as part of a couple then I see nothing wrong with that.

Sikh clergy need to wise up and not be so narrow minded.


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## Tejindersinghdelhi (Jul 3, 2009)

I would restrict my view on sexuality as per Sikh School of Thought.

In Sikhism, sexuality is seen as a husband wife relationship to further human race.  Gurbani does not permit sexual indulgence leading to perversion of mind which is always atuned to sex in mind.    Since Kam is one of the five vices prohibited by Sikh Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib and also it advocates relationship with your wife only " Eka Nari Jati hai"  Treat other women as your daughters and sisters only.   To mind mind, bound by the dictates of Sikh Rehat Maryada, sexuality in the form of homo, lisbians and trisexuallity are best avoided.  Moreover they are unnatural form of sex.  Even animals do not indulge in such form of sexes,  though they do sex with more than one female partner. 

Regards,

tejinderisnghdelhi.


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## BHAGATSINGHDAVEER (Jul 3, 2009)

Sat Sri Akaal Ji,

Not this old chesnut again! please waheguru, spare us from our "sikh clergy"! The same repeated arguments come to the fore when this subject is debated: its against nature!, its not in keeping with gods will! adam & eve (amongst other myths and legends). Come on cyber sangat jio, lets broaden our minds, some people are left handed & some right handed, (by the way centuries ago people who were left handed were labelled as being the devils spawn)  
I have to agree with Randip Singh ji, Kaam is the true enemy not ones sexual orientation. Our homosexual/lesbian sikh brothers & sisters have been forced to either live a lie or forced from Sikhi altogether. and do not forget all religions are facing the same theological dilemma. But i know Sikhi will prevail because it is based on pure logic - not ideological mumbo-jumbo (thats what the so called sikh clergy apparently believe in). The sikh clergy are just politicians (wearing of the 5 K's does not make you a khalsa, its the deeds & maryada that goes with them)- they have seats and status to protect. they will make ANY statement if they think the masses (majority) of people will agree with them. It was stated in previous posts that the soul has no gender, maybe we should re-open that debate.

bhul chuk maaf ji & gur fateh


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## Singh Balbir (Jul 3, 2009)

*Any  religion & particulary sikhism is not there to decide whether homosexuality  is right or wrong. Enjoyment from sex is only for few minutes & many times for this enjoyment a man indulge in heinous crime - raping a girl of 2-3 yrs old. How a man will have enjoyment from sex in old age/.  Enjoyment from homosexuality is madness. God has created male & female mainly for production. For animals & birds sex is only for production. If these homosexuals understand the goal of life they will not even think about homosexuality.* 

*If we really want peace & everlasting enjoyment even at time of last breath of life   then we are required to follow the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib ji. *

*Regards.*

*Balbir Singh*


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## BHAGATSINGHDAVEER (Jul 3, 2009)

sat sri akaal singh balbir ji,

can you please specify in which part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji it says about Homosexuality. I have so far not been able to find this through my learned friends ( by the way i cannot read gurbani so have to rely on friends)   

and by the way please let us not confuse lust and love as these are two very differant things. 

regards and gur fateh ji


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## Lee (Jul 3, 2009)

Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> I would restrict my view on sexuality as per Sikh School of Thought.
> 
> In Sikhism, sexuality is seen as a husband wife relationship to further human race. Gurbani does not permit sexual indulgence leading to perversion of mind which is always atuned to sex in mind. Since Kam is one of the five vices prohibited by Sikh Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib and also it advocates relationship with your wife only " Eka Nari Jati hai" Treat other women as your daughters and sisters only. To mind mind, bound by the dictates of Sikh Rehat Maryada, sexuality in the form of homo, lisbians and trisexuallity are best avoided. Moreover they are unnatural form of sex. Even animals do not indulge in such form of sexes, though they do sex with more than one female partner.
> 
> ...


 
All quite wrong I'm afraid Singh ji.

Animals do enagage in homosexual sex.  Sex for humans is not only for procreation, but many studies show that a loving couple who have a regular and healthy sex life are closer, so it also strenghens bonds between us.

This word 'unatural'.  Can you please show me any act, or anything that occours unaturaly?

Sikhi teaches that all is according to the will of God, so who are we to declare homosexuality wrong, when it obviously happens and quite naturaly to.

Try this also, choose to not belive in God or choose to find memebers of your own gender sexualy attrative, let me know how that turns out.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 3, 2009)

I do find it extremely frustrating that people reply to a thread without even bothering to read other replies. This is a discussion forum which means people discuss with each other and reply to certain comments in order to re-establish certain opinions or have a better understanding of a subject.

I suspect that the vast majority of Sikhs who reject homosexuality on a scriptural/religious level do so because of a personal assumption about the nature of homosexuals and homosexuality, often due to personal disgust rooted in cultural/social norms, or because of lack of experience with the homosexual community. These people may walk past a gay club/bar or see some homosexuals on TV and think they know what it is all about. I bet they have never interacted with a gay person in the normal public sphere and got to know them as a person. These people are so ignorant and they are incapable to believe or realise they see loads of homosexual men and women in a daily basis.

There are some things such people may never understand due to not delving in and bothering to understand a community. Any person who believes that homosexuality is a hypersexual fixation (like a heterosexual man with a foot-fetish who needs this to be fulfilled every waking minute) is seriously deluded. Homosexuals have been persecuted throughout history and this continues into the modern day, be it from culture, society or the legal system in some countries.

For every 20 Sikh males, around 2 of them will be gay. FACT. No argument. They may be the most masculine person in the world, married, whatever, you would never even think it. Because SOCIETY and CULTURE place them in a position where they are not able to be themselves. This causes great psychological damage and often results in lact of fidelity which the wife may never discover. In the UK the law forbids trying to change people's sexual orientation, this is because of the unhealthy psychological impact that this causes on the individual.

The attempted suicide rate in the homosexual community is much higher, at 30%. I can vouch for this statisitic as a homosexual male. 
The heterosexual male/female who tells us that homosexuality is abominable and lustful is obsessed with sex themselves - everyone should have sex in the way they do. This is a *******ed intrusion of people's personal lives. As long as people are having sex only with one person in their lives then it does not matter about the gender. To compare homosexuality with zoophilia or rape is hilarious because these cruel things are usually about A) power, or B) twisted sexual fantasies.
When two people engage in sex together a bonding hormone is released between them to make them close to each other, similar to that released during breast feeding. In zoophilia and rape love cannot develop, because the hormone is not produced by the other side (aspect of consent and arousal), in the same way that the hormones would not be released if a gay male were with a heterosexual woman since he would not be able to emotionally submit to her completely. Therefore sex is NOT simply for procreation it is for establishing a healthy relationship which should be with one other consenting person in one's life.

I will not post any further as people are likely to ignore what I have said and repeat previous arguments.


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## KulwantK (Jul 3, 2009)

Sat Nam,
Hmmm, you have an interesting point of view on this subject.  

There has been talk of various governments secretly but actively promoting homosexuality in order to reduce populations.  Notably, in some sociological studies, it has been seen that when a certain population density occurs within a given area, after a certain amount of time there can be seen to be more incidents of homosexual activities.  

Some sociologists and biologists have theorized that this is actually a natural occurence, and have actually done experiments with rats in enclosed environments to see if it holds true, and evidently from the results of these experiments, it does.  Of course, humans are not rats, however, it must be admitted, it does make one wonder about such things.

There are several saddening things about this whole arena.  If it actually is true that various governments are secretly promoting homosexuality in order to curb population growth it then it certainly begs the question, What else are governments doing in secret to the populations?  That is a huge question to ponder.  

Then, of course, one would think that simply by educating people on the wisdom of being very careful about how many children they have the population would not explode so often, putting a strain on resources.  Then, naturally, it all begs the question, Do government officials see populations of people as just lab rats not in cages?  Then, of course, it could be postulated that using the media, government agents could be secretly fanning the flames of discrimination and hatred towards homosexuals as a good way to distract the people from seeing what shenanigans the government officials are really up to.

Regarding homosexuality:  sexuality in any context is a delicate discussion, indeed.  We might think about asking ourselves how we would react if our best friend/brother/sister/whomever we hold especially dear all of a sudden told us they are a homosexual.  Would we love them any less?  I should hope not.
To see God At All, See God In All.
Wahe Guru!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

The KEY WORD IS KAAM.....and Randip Singh Ji is 110% Spot ON.

IF "Kaam" rules in a Husband wife legal socially correct, religiously sanctioned marriage..even that is to be "CONTROLLED and not let rage out of control"..IF it does rage out of control..then its RAPE !! and some countries do have legal provisions for a legally married woman to cry RAPE agaisnt her legal husband !!
SO here gain even the worldy Law recognises that we each have inidividual rights to our own bodies and no one can dictate even if there is a certificate of marriage !!

GURBANI already told us to CONTROL KAAM. Period. No need to go furtehr into tiny details...is homosex wrong..is lesbian sex wrong..is animal-human sex wrong..blah blah blah..GURU JI went to The ROOT and SAID THE ENTIRE THING...KAAM is the KEY. Keep that under "lock" !! he he self made joke.( usually we say keep it under ....lock and key !! he he )

BTW  IMHO....our so called Clergy, jathedars, Granthis, Gyanis, Ragis, etc etc etc are "ancient" oxy{censored}s stuck in a  time warp..they have no knowledge of Gurbani and how to relate it to Modern Society....the first thing thay bring up is Prampara..tradition..this is always done  his way...BS. GURBANI is not only UNIVERSAL..it is TIMELESS...AKAAL !! It will be TRUE for ever and in ALL conditions, circumstances...BECAUSEit is LOGIC and Scientific and not simply prampara....old is gold type of warped thinking...:advocate:


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## KulwantK (Jul 3, 2009)

Dear CaramelChocolate:
Sat Nam, Ji-
Actually I am very happy you have made this post.
I have a cousin and numerous friends -both in the Sikh community and in the non-Sikh community- that are homosexual. They are dear wonderful people, and they have honored me with letting me know about this very important and intimate aspect of their lives. 

Sexuality is a complex, intimate and individual thing, and to ridicule someone because they are homosexual is foolish and just pathetic to do.


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## Lee (Jul 3, 2009)

KulwantK said:


> Sat Nam,
> Hmmm, you have an interesting point of view on this subject.
> 
> There has been talk of various governments secretly but actively promoting homosexuality in order to reduce populations. Notably, in some sociological studies, it has been seen that when a certain population density occurs within a given area, after a certain amount of time there can be seen to be more incidents of homosexual activities.
> ...


 

Of course ji if even if any of this where true, it is more than possible nowadays for same gender couples to adopt or  ahem! find other ways to have children.  Why indeed a lesbian freind of mine asked if I would be willing to donate some sperm for her and her partners own endvours in this respect a few years ago.


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## Lee (Jul 3, 2009)

KulwantK said:


> Dear CaramelChocolate:
> Sat Nam, Ji-
> Actually I am very happy you have made this post.
> I have a cousin and numerous friends -both in the Sikh community and in the non-Sikh community- that are homosexual. They are dear wonderful people, and they have honored me with letting me know about this very important and intimate aspect of their lives.
> ...


 

And makes no logical sense at all.


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## KulwantK (Jul 3, 2009)

Yes, I have heard of these things as well.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> I would restrict my view on sexuality as per Sikh School of Thought.




Which is that we avoid Kaam. This is sexual obsession.




Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> In Sikhism, sexuality is seen as a husband wife relationship to further human race.




Where does it say husband and wife?

What is you cannot have children, then your relationship should be annulled and declared illegal right?




Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> Gurbani does not permit sexual indulgence leading to perversion of mind which is always atuned to sex in mind. Since Kam is one of the five vices prohibited by Sikh Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib and also it advocates relationship with your wife only " Eka Nari Jati hai" Treat other women as your daughters and sisters only.




Wait.

In same sex relationships I have seen couples together for 30 to 40 years where they love each other. Some even have adopted children who have grown up to be heterosexual, so why would be a wife be restricted to a particular gender? After all is not gender just an outer shell? Inside our soul has no gender.

Bani says that the perfect relationship of a householder is a joining of two souls. Where does our gender come into this?



Tejindersinghdelhi said:


> To mind mind, bound by the dictates of Sikh Rehat Maryada, sexuality in the form of homo, lisbians and trisexuallity are best avoided. Moreover they are unnatural form of sex. Even animals do not indulge in such form of sexes, though they do sex with more than one female partner.




Un-natural?

Homosexuality has been with us since the dawn of time. Why is this un-natural? If two people of the same gender have a loving relationship then how can that be Kaam? Kaam is an obsession with sex, you are assuming all homosexual behaviour is obsessive. What I have observed is more sexual obsession amongst heterosexuals.

Actually animals do have same sex sexual relations. 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 3, 2009)

Dear Members,

I agree with Teji Ji’ s comments on insulting the source. Spiritually there is no difference between God and Guru as expressed by Guru Amardas, Guru Arjan; 

>The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. 

>Let no one think that God and Guru are separate. The True Guru is the Immaculate Lord. 

>There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru.

*Q. Can God/Guru be disrespected by any one?*

A. No

A. Guru Nanak in Raag Asa and Kabir in Raag Gauri answers the above question;

ਆਖਾ ਜੀਵਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ਆਖਣਿ ਅਉਖਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥ਉਤੁ ਭੂਖੈ ਖਾਇ ਚਲੀਅਹਿ ਦੂਖ ॥੧॥ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਲੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ਆਖਿ ਥਕੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈ *॥ਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਆਖਣ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਵਡਾ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਟਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ* ॥੨॥ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ਦੇਦਾ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਚੂਕੈ ਭੋਗੁ ॥ਗੁਣੁ ਏਹੋ ਹੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ਨਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਆ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਤੇਵਡ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਕੀਤੀ ਰਾਤਿ ॥ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਕਮਜਾਤਿ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਵੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਸਨਾਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥

_Ākẖā jīvā visrai mar jā▫o. Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o. Sācẖe nām kī lāgai bẖūkẖ. Uṯ bẖūkẖai kẖā▫e cẖalī▫ahi ḏūkẖ. ||1|| So ki▫o visrai merī mā▫e. Sācẖā sāhib sācẖai nā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. Sācẖe nām kī ṯil vadi▫ā▫ī. Ākẖ thake kīmaṯ nahī pā▫ī*. Je sabẖ mil kai ākẖaṇ pāhi. vadā na hovai gẖāt na jā▫e. ||2||* Nā oh marai na hovai sog. Ḏeḏā rahai na cẖūkai bẖog. Guṇ eho hor nāhī ko▫e. Nā ko ho▫ā nā ko ho▫e. ||3|| Jevad āp ṯevad ṯerī ḏāṯ. Jin ḏin kar kai kīṯī rāṯ. Kẖasam visārėh ṯe kamjāṯ. Nānak nāvai bājẖ sanāṯ. ||4||3||_

Chanting it, I live; forgetting it, I die. It is so difficult to chant the True Name. If someone feels hunger for the True Name, that hunger shall consume his pain. ||1||How can I forget It, O my mother? True is the Master, True is Its Name. ||1||Pause|| Trying to describe even an iota of the Greatness of the True Name, people have grown weary, but they have not been able to evaluate it. *Even if everyone were to gather together and speak of It. It would not become any greater or any lesser.* ||2|| That Akal Purkh does not die; there is no reason to mourn. It continues to give, and Its Provisions never run short. This Virtue is Its alone; there is no other like It. There never has been, and there never will be. ||3|| As Great as You Yourself are, O God, so Great are Your Gifts. The One who created the day also created the night. Those who forget their Creator and Master are vile and despicable. O Nanak, without the Name, they are wretched outcasts. ||4||3|| -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 9,-18 & 349-9

ਅੰਮਾਵਸ ਮਹਿ ਆਸ ਨਿਵਾਰਹੁ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਰਹੁ ॥ਜੀਵਤ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ਅਨਭਉ ਸਬਦੁ ਤਤੁ ਨਿਜੁ ਸਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਭਏ ਮਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗਾ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਪਰਿਵਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੈ ਅਘਟ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ਕਾਲ ਕਲਪਨਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥ਦੁਤੀਆ ਦੁਹ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅੰਗ ॥ਮਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਰਮੈ ਸਭ ਸੰਗ *॥ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਬਢੈ ਨ ਘਟਤਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਏਕੈ ਭਾਇ* ॥੩॥ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਤੀਨੇ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਲਿਆਵੈ ॥ਆਨਦ ਮੂਲ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਾਸ ॥ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥੪॥ਚਉਥਹਿ ਚੰਚਲ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਗਹਹੁ ॥ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਬਹਹੁ ॥ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਾਹੇ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪ ॥ਆਪੈ ਜਪਹੁ ਆਪਨਾ ਜਾਪ ॥੫॥ਪਾਂਚੈ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ਕਨਿਕ ਕਾਮਿਨੀ ਜੁਗ ਬਿਉਹਾਰ ॥ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਸੁਧਾ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ਜਰਾ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥ਛਠਿ ਖਟੁ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਛਹੂੰ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਇ ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਹੀ ਥਿਰਾ ਰਹਾਇ ॥ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮੇਟਿ ਖਿਮਾ ਗਹਿ ਰਹਹੁ ॥ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੀ ਸੂਲ ਨ ਸਹਹੁ ॥੭॥ਸਾਤੈਂ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਚਾ ਜਾਣਿ ॥ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਣਿ ॥ਛੂਟੈ ਸੰਸਾ ਮਿਟਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਦੁਖ ॥ਸੁੰਨ ਸਰੋਵਰਿ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਖ ॥੮॥ਅਸਟਮੀ ਅਸਟ ਧਾਤੁ ਕੀ ਕਾਇਆ ॥ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਅਕੁਲ ਮਹਾ ਨਿਧਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ਗੁਰ ਗਮ ਗਿਆਨ ਬਤਾਵੈ ਭੇਦ ॥ਉਲਟਾ ਰਹੈ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਛੇਦ ॥੯॥ਨਉਮੀ ਨਵੈ ਦੁਆਰ ਕਉ ਸਾਧਿ ॥ਬਹਤੀ ਮਨਸਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਬਾਂਧਿ ॥ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਸਭ ਬੀਸਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਅਮਰ ਫਲ ਖਾਹੁ ॥੧੦॥ਦਸਮੀ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦ ॥ਛੂਟੈ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਤਤ ਅਨੂਪ ॥ਅਮਲ ਨ ਮਲ ਨ ਛਾਹ ਨਹੀ ਧੂਪ ॥੧੧॥ਏਕਾਦਸੀ ਏਕ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ਤਉ ਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਕਟ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ਸੀਤਲ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਭਇਆ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥ਦੂਰਿ ਬਤਾਵਤ ਪਾਇਆ ਨੀਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ਬਾਰਸਿ ਬਾਰਹ ਉਗਵੈ ਸੂਰ ॥ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਜੇ ਅਨਹਦ ਤੂਰ ॥ਦੇਖਿਆ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਕਾ ਪੀਉ ॥ਅਚਰਜੁ ਭਇਆ ਜੀਵ ਤੇ ਸੀਉ ॥੧੩॥ਤੇਰਸਿ ਤੇਰਹ ਅਗਮ ਬਖਾਣਿ ॥ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਬਿਚਿ ਸਮ ਪਹਿਚਾਣਿ ॥ਨੀਚ ਊਚ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨ ਅਮਾਨ ॥ਬਿਆਪਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਸਗਲ ਸਾਮਾਨ ॥੧੪॥ਚਉਦਸਿ ਚਉਦਹ ਲੋਕ ਮਝਾਰਿ ॥ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਮਹਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥ਸਤ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਰਹੁ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ਕਥਨੀ ਕਥੀਐ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੧੫॥ਪੂਨਿਉ ਪੂਰਾ ਚੰਦ ਅਕਾਸ ॥ਪਸਰਹਿ ਕਲਾ ਸਹਜ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਮਧਿ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਿਆ ਥੀਰ ॥ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਰਮਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੧੬॥

_Ammāvas mėh ās nivārahu. Anṯarjāmī rām samārahu. Jīvaṯ pāvhu mokẖḏu▫ār. Anbẖa▫o sabaḏṯaṯ nij sār. ||1|| Cẖaran kamal gobinḏ rang lāgā. Sanṯ parsāḏ bẖa▫e man nirmal har kīrṯan mėh an▫ḏin jāgā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Parivā parīṯam karahu bīcẖār. Gẖat mėh kẖelai agẖat apār. Kāl kalpanā kaḏe na kẖā▫e. Āḏ purakẖ mėh rahai samā▫e. ||2| Ḏuṯī▫ā ḏuh kar jānai ang. Mā▫i▫ā barahm ramai sabẖ sang. *Nā oh badẖai na gẖatṯā jā▫e. Akul niranjan ekai bẖā▫e. ||3||* Ŧariṯī▫ā ṯīne sam kar li▫āvai. Ānaḏ mūl param paḏ pāvai. Sāḏẖsangaṯ upjai bisvās. Bāhar bẖīṯar saḏā pargās. ||4|| Cẖa▫othahi cẖancẖal man ka▫o gahhu. Kām kroḏẖ sang kabahu na bahhu. Jal thal māhe āpėh āp. Āpai japahu āpnā jāp. ||5|| Pāŉcẖai pancẖṯaṯ bisthār. Kanik kāminī jug bi▫uhār. Parem suḏẖā ras pīvai ko▫e. Jarā maraṇḏukẖ fer na ho▫e. ||6|| Cẖẖaṯẖ kẖat cẖakar cẖẖahū▫aŉ ḏis ḏẖā▫e. Bin parcẖai nahī thirā rahā▫e. Ḏubiḏẖā met kẖimā gėh rahhu. Karam ḏẖaram kī sūl na sahhu. ||7|| Sāṯaiŉ saṯ kar bācẖā jāṇ. Āṯam rām leho parvāṇ. Cẖẖūtai sansā mit jāhi ḏukẖ. Sunn sarovar pāvhu sukẖ. ||8|| Astamī asat ḏẖāṯ kī kā▫i▫ā. Ŧā mėh akul mahā niḏẖ rā▫i▫ā. Gur gam gi▫ān baṯāvai bẖeḏ. Ultā rahai abẖang acẖẖeḏ. ||9|| Na▫umī navai ḏu▫ār ka▫o sāḏẖ. Bahṯī mansā rākẖo bāŉḏẖ. Lobẖ moh sabẖ bīsar jāhu. Jug jug jīvhu amar fal kẖāhu. ||10|| Ḏasmī ḏah ḏis ho▫e anand. Cẖẖūtai bẖaram milai gobinḏ. Joṯ sarūpī ṯaṯ anūp. Amal na mal na cẖẖāh nahī ḏẖūp. ||11|| Ėkāḏasī ek ḏis ḏẖāvai. Ŧa▫o jonī sankat bahur na āvai. Sīṯal nirmal bẖa▫i▫ā sarīrā. Ḏūr baṯāvaṯ pā▫i▫ā nīrā. ||12|| Bāras bārah ugvai sūr. Ahinis bāje anhaḏṯūr. Ḏekẖi▫ā ṯihū▫aŉ lok kā pī▫o. Ŧeras ṯerah agam bakẖāṇ. Araḏẖ uraḏẖ bicẖ sam pėhcẖāṇ. Acẖraj bẖa▫i▫ā jīv ṯe sī▫o. ||13|| Nīcẖ ūcẖ nahī mān amān. Bi▫āpik rām sagal sāmān. ||14|| Cẖa▫uḏas cẖa▫oḏah lok majẖār. Rom rom mėh basėh murār. Saṯ sanṯokẖ kā ḏẖarahu ḏẖi▫ān. Kathnī kathī▫ai barahm gi▫ān. ||15|| Pūni▫o pūrā cẖanḏ akās. Pasrahi kalā sahj pargās. Āḏ anṯ maḏẖ ho▫e rahi▫ā thīr. Sukẖ sāgar mėh ramėh Kabīr. ||16||_

On the day of the new moon, give up your hopes. Remember the God, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. You shall attain the Gate of Liberation while yet alive. You shall come to know the Shabad, the Word of the Fearless Lord, and the essence of your own inner being. ||1|| One who enshrines love for the Lotus Feet of the Creator of the Universe - by the Grace of the Saints, her mind becomes pure; night and day, she remains awake and aware, singing the Kirtan of the God's Praises. ||1||Pause|| On the first day of the lunar cycle, contemplate the Beloved God. It is playing within the heart, has no body, and is Infinite. The pain of death never consumes that person who remains absorbed in the Primal Lord God. ||2|| On the second day of the lunar cycle, know that there are two beings within the fiber of the body. Maya and God are blended with everything.* God does not increase or decrease, is unknowable, immaculate, and does not change. ||3||* On the third day of the lunar cycle, one who maintains his equilibrium amidst the three modes finds the source of ecstasy and the highest status. In the Company of the Holy, faith wells up. Outwardly, and deep within, God’s Light is always radiant. ||4|| On the fourth day of the lunar cycle, restrain your fickle mind, and do not ever associate with sexual desire or anger. On land and sea, It It self is in It self. It It self meditates and chants Its Chant. ||5|| On the fifth day of the lunar cycle, the five elements expand outward. Men are occupied in the pursuit of gold and women. How rare are those who drink in the pure essence of the God's Love. They shall never again suffer the pains of old age and death. ||6|| On the sixth day of the lunar cycle, the six chakras run in six directions. Without enlightenment, the body does not remain steady. So erase your duality and hold tight to forgiveness, and you will not have to endure the torture of karma or religious rituals. ||7|| On the seventh day of the lunar cycle, know the Word as True, and you shall be accepted by the God, the Supreme Soul. Your doubts shall be eradicated, and your pains eliminated, and in the ocean of the celestial void, you shall find peace. ||8|| On the eighth day of the lunar cycle, the body is made of the eight ingredients. Within it is the Unknowable Creator, the King of the supreme treasure. The Guru, who knows this spiritual wisdom, reveals the secret of this mystery. Turning away from the world, He abides in the Unbreakable and Impenetrable God. ||9|| On the ninth day of the lunar cycle, discipline the nine gates of the body. Keep your pulsating desires restrained. Forget all your greed and emotional attachment; you shall live throughout the ages, eating the fruit of immortality. ||10|| On the tenth day of the lunar cycle, there is ecstasy in all directions. Doubt is dispelled, and the God of the Universe is met. It is the Embodiment of light, the incomparable essence. It is stainless, without stain, beyond both sunshine and shade. ||11|| On the eleventh day of the lunar cycle, if you run in the direction of the One, you will not have to suffer the pains of reincarnation again. Your body will become cool, immaculate and pure. The God was said to be far away, but It is found near at hand. ||12|| On the twelfth day of the lunar cycle, twelve suns rise.Day and night, the celestial bugles vibrate the unstruck melody. Then, one beholds the Father of the three worlds. This is wonderful! The human being has become God! ||13|| On the thirteenth day of the lunar cycle, the thirteen holy books proclaim that you must recognize the God in the nether regions of the underworld as well as the heavens. There is no high or low, no honor or dishonor.The God is pervading and permeating all. ||14|| On the fourteenth day of the lunar cycle, in the fourteen worlds and on each and every hair, the God abides. Center yourself and meditate on truth and contentment. Speak the speech of God's spiritual wisdom. ||15|| On the day of the full moon, the full moon fills the heavens. Its power is diffused through its gentle light. In the beginning, in the end, and in the middle, God remains firm and steady.Kabir is immersed in the ocean of peace. ||16||-----Kabir, Raag Gauri Thiti, AGGS, Page, 343

*Conclusion;*

The only way one can disrespect God/Guru is by not following their teachings, to become a better human (Gurmukh) and carry on the life as spiritually ignorant. With out spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance. They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality, says Guru Nanak in Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

I have no hatred of homosexuals. In fact some of the kindest, most helpful people I have met in my professional life have been gay. 

That being said, it is false to say Sikhism accepts homosexuality practice amongst its adherents. The argument that no comments are made towards homosexuality implying its acceptability is wrong. 

We have no business interfering with the homosexual community but to stretch the inherent liberal nature of Sikhi to say it is acceptable for Sikhs may be going too far.  True, we are not preoccupied with stoning homosexuals to death unlike others but lets keep things in perspective.


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## Lee (Jul 3, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> I have no hatred of homosexuals. In fact some of the kindest, most helpful people I have met in my professional life have been gay.
> 
> That being said, it is false to say Sikhism accepts homosexuality practice amongst its adherents. The argument that no comments are made towards homosexuality implying its acceptability is wrong.
> 
> We have no business interfering with the homosexual community but to stretch the inherent liberal nature of Sikhi to say it is acceptable for Sikhs may be going too far. True, we are not preoccupied with stoning homosexuals to death unlike others but lets keep things in perspective.


 

Then if Guru ji makes no mention of it from where do you get this idea that it is not acceptable?


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

Lee said:


> Then if Guru ji makes no mention of it from where do you get this idea that it is not acceptable?


 
Following your logic, the fact that the Gurus did not mention paedophilia and bestiality implies they are acceptable in Sikhi. 

This is clearly outside values/norms being transposed on Sikhi? Where does this stop?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 3, 2009)

“why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.”

*LAVAN & WEDDING*

*Laav-ਲਾਵ-* means ਵਿਆਹ ਸਮੇਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੁਆਲੇ ਲਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਫੇਰਾ (ਅਗਨ-ਕੁੰਡ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ) - The circumambulation of the bride groom and bride around Guru Granth Sahib or the round. It is a symbolism to the Spiritual Wedding of an individual conscience (bride) with the Universal Conscience (Husband) in Sikh Thought or the final union during emancipation at death. Here fire god has been replaced by Word (Sabd Guru). These are the four steps towards the union, which are being symbolized during Sikh weddings, started by Guru Ramdas to replace the Hindu ritual.

*First Laav* teaches to embrace the righteous conduct, and renounce sinful actions, with meditation, contemplation of Naam to attain the celestial bliss. 

*Second Laav,* the God leads you to meet the True Guru, the Primal Being. With the Fear of God, the filth of egotism is eradicated and the unstruck sound current of the Sabd resounds. 

*Third Laav,* the mind is filled with Divine Love. 

*Fourth Laav,* mind becomes peaceful and has found God as Guru willed. Its Name resounds and resonates. The God, my Master, blends with Its bride, and her heart blossoms forth in the Naam. 
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page 773 & 7

*Conclusion:*

Sikh Laav or wedding ceremony are the teachings to progress in spirituality rather than physical intimacy of any kind.


Virinder S. Grewal


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## Lee (Jul 3, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> Following your logic, the fact that the Gurus did not mention paedophilia and bestiality implies they are acceptable in Sikhi.
> 
> This is clearly outside values/norms being transposed on Sikhi? Where does this stop?


 

You show a lot of yourself with such words Singh.

Note I offered no logic and instead asked you a direct question.  The methoed you are using in order not to answer this is well known as a 'strawman' fallacy .  You attack an argument that I have not even proposed, claim it as mine and thus try to dodge the actual question I asked.

Intelectual honesty, does this not apply to us Sikhs?

I think that we can all agree that sex with children is wrong, and we can rationalise why this is so.  What I ask though is why do you personly feel that homosexuality is also wrong, please rationalise this for me.


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## Rupinder.Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

Dear all,


This is my opinion but it may be worng too because I beleive that it takes only one extra 

argument to prove a right thing wrong or the other way around.

Whenever I think about homosexuality or other issues like this. I ask myself one question before coming to a conclusion.

and the question is

"Why do I think this issue ( in this case homosexuality) is against Sikhism"

And if I be true to myself

My answer would be any or all of the following:

Fear of loosing identity (heterosexual identity)
Fear of Society ( as most of it is heterosexual)
Fear of bad comments, or image (again from the society we live in)
Fear of infiltration
Sikhism refrences to Hetrosexual marriages as it leads to reproduction.
I am not sure if sikhism delists all homosexual activities as KAAM.

And now if i ask myself what Sikhism teaches me.I would answer as follows:

A state of fearless mind, 
Making right decision without influence of any external forces.
Sikhism teaches about truthfulness and universal brotherhood.
Sikhism teaches about service of humanity
Sikhism teaches to stand against caste system.
Sikhism addresses individuals not groups

But most of the time we simply overlook these things in our day to day life and indulge into 
other things which are very worldly.

Being homosexual or hetrosexual are worldly activities. Moreover Kaam is not just sex, it is 
indulging in sexual activities with wrong or decieving intention, with an intention of causing 
mental or physical damage to the other individual.

And I beleive it will be wrong to say that homosexual is all about KAAM and hetrosexual is not.
Human mind tend to develop stereotypes very quickly about topics it does not totally know about, or does not want to understand about. And I think that KAAM is the sterotype that we have developed for homosexual people.

By doing so we are unknowingly flourishing age long problem of caste system, a system that divides people based on group dynamics, based on thier ocuupational or day to day activities.

And we simply forget that Sikhism is against Caste system or the thoughts that lead to caste system in very first instance.

Moreover every individual is born with different skin color, diffrent facial structure, different body built, different tastes, different hobbies, different skills, different requirements, diffrent thought process and diffrent intresets. And it is universal truth.

Then Why do we expect every other person to think like us, be like us or act like us who are in majority. I would say it is all group consiousness, and majority of mankind suffers from it.

Now lets talk about the LAW in a country. Someone commented that a countries laws should not be amended just to satisfy the requirements of some minor group. 

I ask you one question '"are not those minor group human beings, are not they citizen of country, don't they have any rights for themselves. 
If your answer is no to above, then what about the Sikh individuals asking foreign countries to amend their laws to exclude them from wearing Helmut. We all know sikhs are in minority in most of the countries outside India. what will be our stand on this issue then?

Any countries' laws are made to avoid its citizens from any type of descriminitaion based on their lawful right distinctive actions or appearances. Laws are not made on the basis of majority or minority of individuals. 

Laws are there to avoid conflicts  and smooth running of the public system as you might all 
know.

In the end I would conclude that discussing homosexual or hetrosexual does not lead to GOD. Only things that lead to GOD are truthfulness, service of humanity, universal brotherhood and a fearless and logical thought process. And this is all sikhism teaches us in a nutshell. 

So please think twice before making homosexuality an issue related to sikhism. There are lot more dirty minds who can explore these issues to raise social violence for thier personal or political benefits.

Moreover there are lot more other more important issues humanity is facing above these matters, such as issue of poverty, issue of natural disasters, issue of equal oppurtunity for females and many more. 

We need our mind focussed on those things.

Bhul Chuk Maaf...

Waheguru g ka khalsa, waheguru g ki fateh.
Rupinder Singh


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## Lee (Jul 3, 2009)

Rupinder Ji,

Yes yes.  Every word you say here is true.  Thanks.


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

> Note I offered no logic and instead asked you a direct question. The methoed you are using in order not to answer this is well known as a 'strawman' fallacy . You attack an argument that I have not even proposed, claim it as mine and thus try to dodge the actual question I asked.
> 
> Intelectual honesty, does this not apply to us Sikhs?


 
I'm not trying to dodge any question. I am just trying to fathom why people are all of a sudden presuming that Sikhism condones homosexuality amongst its adherents? 

So far all I have seen is the argument that silence (on the part of our scriptures and literature) may suggest acceptance (that is unless I am misunderstanding). I was merely pointing out such an interpretation is mistaken in my view. The argument that something not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib or rehats indicates acceptance is plain false. That is all I was saying. 





> I think that we can all agree that sex with children is wrong, and we can rationalise why this is so. What I ask though is why do you personly feel that homosexuality is also wrong, please rationalise this for me


.

What two consenting adults do in the big wide world is their business. I am not here to judge them. But saying that this is acceptable within a Sikh lifestyle framework is another matter altogether. 

I would like to ask, is there a danger, in todays world of mass communication. That we may erroneously project the norms of one culture/way of life onto another? I think this may be happening here.

I think it is right that Sikhs do not attack or vilify homosexuals, but saying that homsexuality is essentially sanctioned by Sikhi is being intellectually dishonest in itself. I don't know where the ultimate answer lies but the panth will probably come to some conclusion in due time....probably. In the meanwhile I am glad that Sikhs are not systematically attacking homosexuals like some groups. 

Anyway, I am taking Rupinder's advice:



> Moreover there are lot more other more important issues humanity is facing above these matters, such as issue of poverty, issue of natural disasters, issue of equal oppurtunity for females and many more.


 
I'll leave you all to it.


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## kds1980 (Jul 3, 2009)

> I would like to ask, is there a danger, in todays world of mass communication. That we may erroneously project the norms of one culture/way of life onto another? I think this may be happening here.



I totally agree with you here.media is sensationalising this issue very much..There is a good chance that
many youngsters will now induldge in homosexual activity to prove that how modern they are.many times when some liberal culture of west is introduced was India the results were no so good.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

Dal Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

What do you think the position of  Sikhi would be when discovered/ realised through scientific data that  homosexuality is part of nature? 

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> I totally agree with you here.media is sensationalising this issue very much..There is a good chance that
> many youngsters will now induldge in homosexual activity to prove that how modern they are.many times when some liberal culture of west is introduced was India the results were no so good.




KDS ji,

Guru Fateh.

Homosexuality has been part of Indian culture since its existence. Many Kings had little boys for this purpose. I am told that many gays have turned to the Khusra tribes so they could practice that. Khusras are accepted in  Indian culture more than in anyother culture. They are part of the folklore. How many do we really know are khusras?

So, there is nothing western about homosexuality. Islam is famous for this too, although it is all underground since the times of the Mughals.

Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common. 

Freedom has its price.

Tejwant Singh


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> I totally agree with you here.media is sensationalising this issue very much..There is a good chance that
> many youngsters will now induldge in homosexual activity to prove that how modern they are.many times when some liberal culture of west is introduced was India the results were no so good.


 

I am going to answer these last few comments. 

KDS ji, I am going to be frank here. And I say this without the type of malice towards Hindus/Hinduism that some Sikh people project. The simple fact is that from what I have seen, Hindu society in general seems to have strong sycophantic tendencies towards the west, including trying to adapt their culture for palatability (apart from caste). Whether there is a relationship with the Brahman ruling classes ideology that they themselves have descended from white people is another matter. 

I think the recent decision regarding homosexuality in India (which I am apathetic towards, for the record), is more the result of an attempt to curry favour with the west than any belief that Indian society has. The west to are VERY keen to project their influence right now in a time when it is openly being fought against in many parts of the Islamic world. This would be seen as a propaganda coup for them, demonstrating their influenece when it is in reality waning.


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Dal Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
I think like every other issue, it would have Sikhs at each others throats arguing like crazy...lol...it's funny because it's so true!

We have no truly accepted "central board" to judicate on such matters (if they are required). The Akal Takhat seems to have a new jathedars every other year. They seem to follow no logic with their decisions right now. End reslut: Sikhs arguing between themselves like they famously do. Even if Akal Takhat did make the right decision in matters, we would still probably larrae amongst ourselves over it.


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## kds1980 (Jul 3, 2009)

> KDS ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



I am not saying that homosexuality is western I am saying acceptance of open  homosexuality  is western.As far as khusra's are concerned majority of them are castrated ,the practice which was started by 
muslim rulers for their harems.Khusra's are not accepted by Indian soceity they live like an outcaste
.My chachi told me a case that a genuine hijra was born is their locality.His/her parents tried to raise her as a girl but in her teenage the news was leaked and hijra 's of that locality came and forcibily took her saying that she does not belong to  normal society.




> Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common.



So you are saying that there is nothing wrong if unmarried people induldge in sexual activity?.Ok then honestly tell me how many Indian men can accept that their wives are Not virgin? i guess very very few
so Indians still cannot get rid of their traditional mentality but want to become westernised


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 3, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> KDS ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 

Pederastry and homosexuality are two completely different things.

dalsingh. I find it hilarous that you would imply homosexuality is a western phenomenon. It was the British who introduced the anti-homosexuality laws, previous to this there were none in India.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 3, 2009)

Dear All,

Here are my two cents on the subject of Sensual Pleasures looked through the glasses of spirituality. Sikh thought is all about spiritual growth with final union with Akal Purkh through living the life of a house holder. This is sought by subjugating lower instincts and developing higher instincts to become a Guru willed (ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ) rather than being self willed (ਮਨਮੁਖਿ) and leading to self destruction. The sensual pleasures are an obstruction to spiritual progress. Thus the sensual pleasures are forbidden in Sikh Faith except for progeny, e.g. here are couple Sabds of Guru Arjan in Raag Asa and Kabir in Raag Gauri on the subject;

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸੰਗਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਪਟਾਏ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਧੇ ॥ ਜਹ ਜਾਨੋ ਸੋ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਭਏ ਆਂਧੇ ॥੧॥ ਮਨ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਅਰਾਧੇ ॥ ਕਾਚ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਤੂੰ ਬਸਤਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਖੈ ਕੀ ਬਿਆਧੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਪਲੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਛੀਜੈ ਅਰਜਾਧੇ ॥ ਜੈਸੇ ਮੀਠੈ ਸਾਦਿ ਲੋਭਾਏ ਝੂਠ ਧੰਧਿ ਦੁਰਗਾਧੇ ॥੨॥ *ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਇਹ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਰਸਿ ਲਪਟਾਧੇ ॥* ਦੀਈ ਭਵਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਬਿਧਾਤੈ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਜਨਮਾਧੇ ॥੩॥ ਜਉ ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਤਉ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਭ ਸੁਖ ਲਾਧੇ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਧਿਆਵਉ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਾਢੀ ਸਗਲ ਉਪਾਧੇ ॥੪॥ ਇਉ ਜਪਿਓ ਭਾਈ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤੇ ॥ ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਲਾਥੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੨੬॥

_Mithi▫ā sang sang laptā▫e moh mā▫i▫ā kar bāḏẖe. Jah jāno so cẖīṯ na āvai ahaŉ▫buḏẖ bẖa▫e āŉḏẖe. ||1|| Man bairāgī ki▫o na arāḏẖe. Kācẖ koṯẖrī māhi ṯūŉ basṯā sang sagal bikẖai kī bi▫āḏẖe. ||1|| rahā▫o. Merī merī karaṯ ḏin rain bihāvai pal kẖin cẖẖījai arjāḏẖe. Jaise mīṯẖai sāḏ lobẖā▫e jẖūṯẖ ḏẖanḏẖ ḏurgāḏẖe. ||2|| *Kām kroḏẖ ar lobẖ moh ih inḏrī ras laptāḏẖe.* Ḏī▫ī bẖavārī purakẖ biḏẖāṯai bahur bahur janmāḏẖe. ||3|| Ja▫o bẖa▫i▫o kirpāl ḏīn ḏukẖ bẖanjan ṯa▫o gur mil sabẖ sukẖ lāḏẖe. Kaho Nānak ḏin rain ḏẖi▫āva▫o mār kādẖī sagal upāḏẖe. ||4|| I▫o japi▫o bẖā▫ī purakẖ biḏẖāṯe. Bẖa▫i▫o kirpāl ḏīn ḏukẖ bẖanjan janam maraṇ ḏukẖ lāthe. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||4||4||126||_

They are attached to falsehood; clinging to the transitory, they are trapped in emotional attachment to Maya. Wherever they go, they do not think of Akal Purkh; they are blinded by intellectual egotism. ||1|| O, mind, renunciate, and adore God? You dwell in that flimsy chamber, with all the sins of corruption. ||1||Pause|| Crying out, "Mine, mine", your days and nights pass away; moment by moment, your life is running out. The sweet flavors tempt you, and you are occupied by your false and filthy business. ||2|| *Your senses are beguiled by sensual pleasures of sex, by anger, greed and emotional attachment. *The All-powerful Architect of Destiny has ordained that you shall be reincarnated over and over again. ||3|| When the Destroyer of the pains of the poor becomes merciful, then, as Gurmukh, you shall find absolute peace. Says Nanak, meditate on the Akal Purkh, day and night, and all your sickness shall be banished. ||4|| Meditate in this way, O Siblings of Destiny, on the Akal Purkh, the Architect of Destiny. The Destroyer of the pains of the poor has become merciful, and has removed the pains of birth and death. ||1||Second. Pause||4||4||126|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 403-1

ਜੇਤੇ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਤ ਤੇ ਡੂਬੇ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਤਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਮਨੁ ਜਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਸਾਸ ਗ੍ਰਾਸ ਕੋ ਦਾਤੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮਨਹੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਹੀਰਾ ਲਾਲੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਉਡੀ ਬਦਲੈ ਹਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਖਾ ਭੂਖ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਉਨਮਤ ਮਾਨ ਹਿਰਿਓ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੨॥* ਸੁਆਦ ਲੁਭਤ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਰਸ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਿਓ ਮਦ ਰਸ ਲੈਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥* ਕਰਮ ਭਾਗ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੰਗਾਨੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਲੋਹ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੩॥ ਧਾਵਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਥਾਕੇ ਅਬ ਦੁਖ ਕਰਿ ਹਮ ਹਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਤ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੪॥੧॥੫॥੫੬॥

_Jeṯe jaṯan karaṯ ṯe dūbe bẖav sāgar nahī ṯāri▫o re. Karam ḏẖaram karṯe baho sanjam ahaŉ▫buḏẖ man jāri▫o re. ||1|| Sās garās ko ḏāṯo ṯẖākur so ki▫o manhu bisāri▫o re. Hīrā lāl amol janam hai ka▫udī baḏlai hāri▫o re. ||1|| rahā▫o. Ŧarisnā ṯarikẖā bẖūkẖ bẖaram lāgī hirḏai nāhi bīcẖāri▫o re. Unmaṯ mān hiri▫o man māhī gur kā sabaḏ na ḏẖāri▫o re. ||2|| *Su▫āḏ lubẖaṯ inḏrī ras pareri▫o maḏ ras laiṯ bikāri▫o re.* Karam bẖāg sanṯan sangāne kāsat loh uḏẖāri▫o re. ||3|| Ḏẖāvaṯ jon janam bẖaram thāke ab ḏukẖ kar ham hāri▫o re. Kahi Kabīr gur milaṯ mahā ras parem bẖagaṯ nisṯāri▫o re. ||4||1||5||56||_

Those who try to do things by their own efforts are drowned in the terrifying world-ocean; they cannot cross over. Those who practice religious rituals and strict self-discipline - their egotistical pride shall consume their minds. ||1|| Your God and Master has given you the breath of life and food to sustain you; Oh, why have you forgotten It? Human birth is a priceless jewel, which has been squandered in exchange for a worthless shell. ||1||Pause|| The thirst of desire and the hunger of doubt afflict you; you do not contemplate the God in your heart. Intoxicated with pride, you cheat yourself; you have not enshrined the Word of the Guru's Sabd within your mind. ||2|| *Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine, are corrupt.* But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints float over the ocean like iron attached to wood. ||3|| I have wandered in doubt and confusion, through birth and reincarnation; now, I am so tired. I am suffering in pain and wasting away. Says Kabir, meeting with the Guru, I have obtained supreme joy; my love and devotion have saved me. ||4||1||5||56|| -----Kabir, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 335-15

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

CaramelChocolate said:


> Pederastry and homosexuality are two completely different things.
> 
> dalsingh. I find it hilarous that you would imply homosexuality is a western phenomenon. It was the British who introduced the anti-homosexuality laws, previous to this there were none in India.




Caramel,

Guru Fateh.

I am aware of that. Please read my whole post. What I mean is that it is the acceptance in the Indian culture of people other than  heterosexuals and it has been going on for a looooong time despite the religious fervour in the country.

Tejwant Singh


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

> dalsingh. I find it hilarous that you would imply homosexuality is a western phenomenon. It was the British who introduced the anti-homosexuality laws, previous to this there were none in India.


 
This was not what I was implying at all. Making a big political deal about homosexual rights IS VERY WESTERN now however. Forget the rights of sovereign states when it comes to invasions, but make an issue about protecting homosexuals to portray yourselves as civilised against anti homosexual barbarians. At the same time many of the same governements ignore other abuses around the globe as suits them. Actually through corporations, organisations in the very same countries are complicit in the abuses of many (albeit indirectly) in foreign countries. Which is ignored.

I know India has generally open mindedness to these things as there are kusray/heejray etc. However, policies that normalise such relationships in society is a new thing to my knowledge, at least in Panjab. To me this is one of those uncomfortable moments when two cultures meeting grapple with establishing acceptable norms. In this debate the west seems to dictate to the third world.  

Views of westerners are now being transposed on Sikhi with assumptions about what is acceptable and unacceptable being made so flippantly, you would think posters knew the Guru's minds intimately. I'm just suggesting some restraint on thinking we have the answer to the debate on Sikhi's position on homosexuality. People here need to realise that, rightly or wrongly, Panjabi Sikhs, who form the bulk of the community are generally very conservative people on such matters. This will have a strong bearing on any panthic concensus on the matter. 

I also imagine this will give Islamists further evidence that the west is essentially set on going abroad and changing peoples accepted cultural practices to their own. That is the political dimension to this.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

Kds ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> I am not saying that homosexuality is western I am saying acceptance of open homosexuality is western.




Would you consider a country like Brasil as Western?




> As far as khusra's are concerned majority of them are castrated ,the practice which was started by muslim rulers for their harems.Khusra's are not accepted by Indian soceity they live like an outcaste.My chachi told me a case that a genuine hijra was born is their locality.His/her parents tried to raise her as a girl but in her teenage the news was leaked and hijra 's of that locality came and forcibily took her saying that she does not belong to normal society.



I have heard cases like the one you Chachi mentioned. What do you mean that Kussra's are not accepted in the Indian society? They have a lot of power especially during the weddings and when a child is born in a family, especially  when a boy is born. You can not kick them out until you pay them. Many low caste people are also outcast but they do not have the same power.And as I have said that I have heard many Indian gays live in their colonies.


  My Quote:
    Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common.    
Your response:


> So you are saying that there is nothing wrong if unmarried people induldge in sexual activity?.Ok then honestly tell me how many Indian men can accept that their wives are Not virgin? i guess very very few so Indians still cannot get rid of their traditional mentality but want to become westernised



I am just stating the facts. I am in no position to be the moral judge for anyone or of any society per se. It is not for me to judge others about their morality.

Tejwant Singh


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

> I am not saying that homosexuality is western I am saying acceptance of open homosexuality is western.
> Would you consider a country like Brasil as Western?


 
Fair point. However, Brasil still isn't trying to score cultural/political points from it.


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## Liberal_canadian (Jul 3, 2009)

Who cares what homo-sexual do! We spend way too much time trying to ban gay marriage of whatever, who cares . they are not harming you in any way so just live to except that there are homo-sexual people in your community and they are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose and you have no right to tell a person what is right and wrong as long as the law is being respected which it is. this is a huge step for India as being civilized but they have a long, long way to go. If you really care that much about what homo-sexual people are doing then maybe you should try their lifestyle if you are so intrested in them. SO FOR THE LAST TIME, WHO CARES WHAT THEY DO!!!! they are not doing anything to you and they exist in every society. maybe india should also try to improve the living conditions of approx 200 million people then we can say they are making steps on becoming civilized


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## Admin (Jul 3, 2009)

This is a website of The Group for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Sikhs:

SARBAT.NET - the one-stop resource for Gay Sikhs


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## dalsingh (Jul 3, 2009)

Liberal_canadian said:


> Who cares what homo-sexual do! We spend way too much time trying to ban gay marriage of whatever, who cares . they are not harming you in any way so just live to except that there are homo-sexual people in your community and they are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose and you have no right to tell a person what is right and wrong as long as the law is being respected which it is. this is a huge step for India as being civilized but they have a long, long way to go. If you really care that much about what homo-sexual people are doing then maybe you should try their lifestyle if you are so intrested in them. SO FOR THE LAST TIME, WHO CARES WHAT THEY DO!!!! they are not doing anything to you and they exist in every society. maybe india should also try to improve the living conditions of approx 200 million people then we can say they are making steps on becoming civilized


 
That's the thing libcan. This is not coming from any genuine concern about gays but political/cultural pressure. India, the place that treats cows better than many humans all of a sudden is concerned about gay rights? Yeah right.   

I don't begrudge gay people humane treatment but India seems to have no moral compass of its own. I'm happy for the gays but this kind of stunt is just for public consumption. You still have the most horrendous attitudes towards fellow Indians there but because of this annoucement of gay rights, dumb westerners are like "yey, good old India!" 

Meanwhile, mass murder has gone on under our noses and nobody punished.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> Fair point. However, Brasil still isn't trying to score cultural/political points from it.



Dal Singh ji

Guru Fateh.

What do you mean by that? Please elaborate. Mind you, Brasil is the largest Catholic country in the world.


Tejwant Singh


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 3, 2009)

dalsingh you have a very unrealistic concept of acceptance of homosexuality in the west. i have already quoted suicide rate statistics so don't try and tell me that homosexuality is accepted. minority groups are/can be very powerful and the governments ALL AROUND THE WORLD do not want any confrontation with them so they give them legal recognition but this does not equal social acceptance.
homosexuality was only legalised in britain just over 40 years ago so to equal culture to law is hilarious. i am from a white british background and i am telling you, white heterosexual men aren't too keen to accept homosexuals culturally. this is why we have gay bars in the uk as open homosexuality is not tolerated in the public sphere. you speak ABSOLUTE nonsense and know nothing about the gay struggle.

what the gay community in india is going through now can be equated to the movement which harvey milk started in america. you might want to watch the film 'milk'. gay people will struggle in every nation and i will have you know it is extremely hard to be gay in western nations such as america due to heavy christian influence on culture.

just because a country's law says something doesn't mean it reflects social or cultural values.

and thank you for calling me dumb, i was very happy that india had done this, scrapping the homophobic laws which britain gave them.


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2009)

Aman ji

Thanks sooooooooo much for this! At our university we have a degree program in Human Sexuality Education granting both master and doctoral level degrees/also a combined social work and education degree.

This is a good resource for them. I am trying to persuade them to conduct their yearly overseas course in India. They keep going to Canada every other year. I am going to send a few of them this link.



Actually I think they go to Canada to eat in outdoor cafes. But every other person I know in that program has a yearning for Indian food -- so what are they waiting for!


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## Sinister (Jul 3, 2009)

the role of sex in a relationship is not just for procreation...as those woman who have gone past the child bearing age still participate in sex with there life long partners. it plays a strong psychological and social role in a persons life and in a relationship (this is the root of the argument...isn't it?)...that when gay people have sex its out of want and when straight people do it is somehow out of necessity (rudimentary beliefs).

'Wowser: an ineffably pious person who mistakes this world for a penitentiary and himself for a warder'. -cj denis

whats else is new?

live and let live people


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## SikhUSA (Jul 3, 2009)

Neither in Favor... Nor against it...


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 4, 2009)

jagroop sahota said:


> wait till your children buddy. don't worry, this world will open your eyes one day. we here have much bigger problems to take care of. your son will surely be gay, then we will see. it is a small world so watch what you say when comparing sikhism with that type of sexual behavior. sex with man and woman, the real khalsa ji are far ahead on that. you will understand that one day. not yet. just observe. like i said there are always few who save this world in every generation. those people have very keen sense of right and wrong in details with very open mind. they are called sikhs. you seem to have been only born in so called sikh family. i was too. but only when you understand the real meaning of ek in ek onkar then your thinking changes. we will discuss this next year with you. so please refrain from commenting and study guru granth sahib ji, dasam granth, sarb loh and all the other scripture. you can read all the world's religions first then read sikh scriptures so we will not be bias when done with studies. just take it for a small advice for now that it is wrong behaviour. thanks for your previous comment. till next year.


 
a perfect example of holier than thou behaviour


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## greenjuice (Jul 4, 2009)

where does the SGGS forbid "holier than thou behaviour"?

i would like to know.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2009)

greenjuice said:


> where does the SGGS forbid "holier than thou behaviour"?
> 
> i would like to know.



Hum nahin chnaggeh..bura nahin koie...
Every SINGLE TUK of SGGS..the WRITER is full of UTTER HUMILITY...be it the Sikh Gurus, the Bhagts or the Bhatts...
NOT a Single tuk declaring I am Holier than THOU...in fcat the DIRECT OPPOSITE.
IF we can see the Elephant staring in front of our own face..then we can comment on a mosquito on anothers nose
BUT its usually the other way around..we can see the tiny FLEA  a mile away..but miss the elephant touching our nose..:advocate:


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## greenjuice (Jul 4, 2009)

Satgur Bajhon Gur Nahi Koee Nigurey Kaa Hai Naao Bura (pg. 435)  
Without the True Guru (i.e. Guru Nanak),  there is not another Guru.  And one without the Guru is known as evil.

Gurmantar-Heenus Jo Praani Dhrigant Janam Bharashtneh.  Kookreh Sookreh Gardheh Kaakeh Sarpaneh Tul Khaieh (pg. 1356-1357)  
One who is without the Gurmantra, is the most  accursed, and contaminated is his life. He is like a dog,  a swine, an ***, a crow a snake, and a blockhead.

Saakat Besuva Poot Ninaam (pg 1239) 
The infidel is nameless like a prostitute's son.

Manmukh Naam Na Jannani, Vinn Naavey Pat Jaaey...  Vishta Kay Keerray Pavey Wich Vishta  Se Vishta Mahe Samaaye(pg. 28)   
The egocentrics know not the Naam, and without  Naam lose their honor...  They are worms of excrement, fall in excrement,  and get absorbed in excrement.

Choraan, Jaaran, Randiaan, Kuttaneeya Di Baan.  Vedinaa Ki Dosti Vedlnaa Ka Khaann  Sifti Saar Naa Jannani, Sada Vasey Saitaan (pg. 790)  
It is the habit of thieves, adulterers, prostitutes, and  pimps that they contract friendship with the irreligious  or faithless and eat their food; they know not the worth  of God's praise and Satan ever abides within them.


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## dalsingh (Jul 4, 2009)

CaramelChocolate said:


> dalsingh you have a very unrealistic concept of acceptance of homosexuality in the west. i have already quoted suicide rate statistics so don't try and tell me that homosexuality is accepted. minority groups are/can be very powerful and the governments ALL AROUND THE WORLD do not want any confrontation with them so they give them legal recognition but this does not equal social acceptance.


 
My concept is based on spending most of my life living in England. That is 30+ years. In that time I have met gay teachers, many gay work collegues and have had neighbours who are homosexual. As a partial outsider I can say that by and large gayness is accepted in many parts of London at least. Lets talk culturally also. Gay characters (I would describe it as the mincer stereotype) have played a central role in British comedy for a long as I have been alive and probably a lot longer. From the "Carry on" movies, to "Are you being served" going to present day "LIttle Britain" homosexuality has been implicitly accepted for decades. A gay man even now has his own talk show, I think his name is Gary or Graham Norton. I am not saying gays are never oppressed but I contest your notion that homosexuality is not generally socially accepted in Britain today. Maybe it depends on where you are from in the UK but to have a gay couple living nearby, see gay couples when dining in restuarants is not uncommon these days. 



> homosexuality was only legalised in britain just over 40 years ago so to equal culture to law is hilarious. i am from a white british background and i am telling you, white heterosexual men aren't too keen to accept homosexuals culturally. this is why we have gay bars in the uk as open homosexuality is not tolerated in the public sphere. you speak ABSOLUTE nonsense and know nothing about the gay struggle.


 
Like I said before I am not say ing that all is rosey for gay folk. I also disagree that white hetrosexual men (esp. WASPs) are not keen to accept homosexuals. They more than any other people have been at the forefront of gay rights. 




> what the gay community in india is going through now can be equated to the movement which harvey milk started in america. you might want to watch the film 'milk'. gay people will struggle in every nation and i will have you know it is extremely hard to be gay in western nations such as america due to heavy christian influence on culture.


 
Anyone suggesting Christianity is a strong influence in England is either lying or seriously delusional. In America yes, but NO WAY here. But I do get your point about the states. But even there the issue is regional, compare San Francisco to Alabama for instance. 



> just because a country's law says something doesn't mean it reflects social or cultural values.


 
Fair point but in this case I believe the law here reflects general feeling amongst white Brits. 



> and thank you for calling me dumb, i was very happy that india had done this, scrapping the homophobic laws which britain gave them.


 
I disagree, I think they are actually taking onboard further British/western concepts by the move.


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## dalsingh (Jul 4, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Dal Singh ji
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
By this I mean that many western states use broad concepts as planks to try and beat other nations with. In my opinion they are playing to a stereotype of western civilisation and "other" savagery/barbarity. 

The usual planks are womens rights, democracy and gay rights. Some state governments will exploit these and (in my opinion) feign concern about the lack of these in other nations. But the real reasons behind their apparent concern is usually political/cultural point scoring. I think Iraq is a good example. With various concerns being aired all of a sudden (i.e. WMD transmuting to democracy), whilst the real reasons behind the show was greed for oil resources. 

So whilst people in England may rejoice in the annoucement in India, please also remember that other countries are sticking their noses in places they shouldn't and causing lots of death there. That is the hypocrisy of the west, on one hand they fight for gay rights on the other they turn a blind eye to, or are complicit in the deaths of nonwhite men all over the globe. 

Anyway - this is too much for a Saturday afternoon.


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## kds1980 (Jul 4, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Kds ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji

Just because they can extort money from the people it does not mean That khusra's are accepted.Can they do any other job apart from taking money from people or prostituition
are they accepted in govt services,can they join private sector? As far as lower caste are concerned according to govt they can do any job and even jobs are reserved for them.If the way khusra's are treated is called acceptance then what is non acceptance?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 5, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> Just because they can extort money from the people it does not mean That khusra's are accepted.Can they do any other job apart from taking money from people or prostituition
> are they accepted in govt services,can they join private sector? As far as lower caste are concerned according to govt they can do any job and even jobs are reserved for them.If the way khusra's are treated is called acceptance then what is non acceptance?



Kds ji,

Guru Fateh.

Taking your argument a bit further, if they extort money, then it is a crime. Why can't they be prosecuted for their crimes and sent to jail? Why does not the Indian Govt do that?

And talking about prostitution, is that also a western influence as homosexuality is in India according to your opinion?

Tejwant Singh


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## kds1980 (Jul 5, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Kds ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Yes Tejwant ji Its a crime .But tell me how many times criminals in India get punished,If you call police when they are asking for money then police is also going to tell you that give them some money.Btw I am more concerned with the crime they do and that is castration as presence of such large numbers in any society is abnormal.I read one report that when 100 hijra's are interviewed out of them 76 said that they were castrated.

And I don't beleive that prostituition is western.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 5, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> Yes Tejwant ji Its a crime .But tell me how many times criminals in India get punished,If you call police when they are asking for money then police is also going to tell you that give them some money.Btw I am more concerned with the crime they do and that is castration as presence of such large numbers in any society is abnormal.I read one report that when 100 hijra's are interviewed out of them 76 said that they were castrated.
> 
> And I don't beleive that prostituition is western.



Kds ji,

Guru Fateh.

All you are saying is that the  khusras have a lot of power.That was exactly my point.They  openly commit crimes and have been left unpunished for hundreds of years. They extort money from people of all walks of life and openly castrate people, yet no one raises a finger against them, especially the Govt. Where is KPS Gill when you need him?

We have riots against the religious minorities in India all the times but no riots against the khusras by any one,  which shows their prowess and power.

Tejwant Singh.


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## kds1980 (Jul 5, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Kds ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



I am not saying khusra's are so powerful.They have the type of power which Indian culture have provided them.There is myth associated with them that there blessings are very powerful and god hear their prayers quickly and that's why this tradition of givng them money was developed.Now this tradition is so strong that you have to give them money whether you want it or not.Also the money they demand is on the occassion of happiness and according to the status of family.They don't ask poor families to give them 10,000 rupees if son is born but they can much more than that from a rich family.

As far as castration is concerned yes it is bitter truth.But in  a billion plus population 
many children go missing so its not difficuilt for them to get some boys  and castrate them but on the other hand majority of times they don't kidnap children from people
and openly castrate them.so khusra's are tolerated as long as they remaiin in limit O/W
dOn't expect people not to attack them or remain peaceful towards them


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## Randip Singh (Jul 5, 2009)

Can someone answer one question. Does the soul have a gender?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 5, 2009)

Dear Randip Ji,

Soul doesn not have a gender IMHO if there is one (which is another subject posted by me on the forum) but in Sikh thought to explain its modes operandi of spiritual growth and final union with Akal Purkh by following the tools contained in Sabd Guru, it has been considered as a bride and Ekankar as hasband.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Randip Singh (Jul 5, 2009)

Ok Soul does not have a gender.

My wife's and my union was created by God? Yes? We are in effect soul mates?

Say in our next lives we are both men in gender yet we recognise that we are soul mates. What then?


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## kds1980 (Jul 5, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Ok Soul does not have a gender.
> 
> My wife's and my union was created by God? Yes? We are in effect soul mates?
> 
> Say in our next lives we are both men in gender yet we recognise that we are soul mates. What then?



LOL Is there any way one can truly recognise who is His/her true soul mate?

There  are people who fell in love and say that they are true soul mate of each other and will die if separated and after some time of marriage they divorce each other by saying that
they can't live with each other


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## kds1980 (Jul 5, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Ok Soul does not have a gender.
> 
> My wife's and my union was created by God? Yes? We are in effect soul mates?
> 
> Say in our next lives we are both men in gender yet we recognise that we are soul mates. What then?



Anyway Randip ji there are no answers to Ifs because I can also attach 100 of Ifs in the situation if you  and your wife are Man and woman in next life and recognise each other but still due to circumstances you cannot be together


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 5, 2009)

*Soul mate*;

The word Soul Mate is a misnomer as no two souls are alike. The term Soul Mates means many things, which are consciences that you have experienced with in past, parallel or future lifetimes. They can also be aspects of your conscience experiencing at this time in another body. We are all having multidimensional beings - your conscience having experiences, in many realities, at the same time. As we all evolve from the same source of consciousness creation - we could say that we are all souls’ mates in a manner of speaking. It could be said that two persons compatible with each other in disposition, point of view, or sensitivity may be soul mates. You feel closer to certain persons, because you have attracted them into your life as they are on the same frequency as you or because you want to work out issues with them. There is a special bond between such individuals like unconditional love, respect for each other, bringing out the best in each other with complete compatibility.

Soul mate thinking/proposition is living in a world of fantasy. It is dreamt but not found in the present world except in the final spiritual union with Akal Purkh as expressed by Guru Amardas in Raag Suhi; they are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies.  

In actual reality IMHO soul mate is a bunch of beans. It only works till the man says “I Do”. In a second after that bride wants to change her soul mate in to soul mate, so he has to like what she likes period-term used as henpecked.

Spiritually marriage usually means death and absorption of the soul in to the Supreme Conscience, which is the real soul mate. In this world it is only give and take to make the marriage happy, which is not very commonly found. In case bride is unhappy then she thinks as described by Sheikh Farid Ji; when she is a virgin, she is full of desire; but when she is married, and then her troubles begin again. Farid, she has this one regret, that she cannot be a virgin again. 
It could be said that soul mate is a poetical description of a happy couple, only to be obtained with spiritual growth and neither through internet, nor match making and even not by love affair.
Guru Amardas commented on the question of his wife (Mansa Devi) to find a boy for their daughter Bibi Bhani like Ramdas (then a Sevadar and became 4rth Guru later), to which he responded that there are no two persons alike and he is the only one like him in the world.

A soul mate is one whose lock and keys fit one another. Each feels safe to open each other’s locks with their own keys with complete trust. They honestly are in total and unconditional love with out any pretensions. Each shares deepest longings, sense of direction and makes life come to life. In reality it is difficult to come by and very rare as is evident from the following hymn of Guru Amardas in Raag Maru; Seek and find those who are imbued with Truth; they are so rare in this world.Meeting with them, one's face becomes radiant and bright, chanting the Name of the Akal Purkh.


Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 5, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Can someone answer one question. Does the soul have a gender?



Randip Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

In my opinion, soul is nothing but a clump of energy, hence genderless, formless. 

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 5, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Ok Soul does not have a gender.
> 
> My wife's and my union was created by God? Yes? We are in effect soul mates?
> 
> Say in our next lives we are both men in gender yet we recognise that we are soul mates. What then?



LOL Benedictine monks would like these questions big time!


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## Rajs (Jul 5, 2009)

Re: Legalising Homosexuality 

God created mankind with a divine purpose; man and woman were created as a family unit and reproduction process being the channel of growth and spread of mankind. 

There is no need for any debate or dicussion on homosexuality being ******* and immoral by any religious standard - Sikhism or others. Any person with a minuscule moral fabric and common sense can ascertain that human **** was not designed for sex. Each part of human body has a function and even a three year old child can work that out!

So all those depraved minds, who seek a platform for any discussion on homosexuality ought to take a cold shower and perhaps ask their parents about the process of their own birth and ask what role did rear-end play in it?

Regards
Rajs


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## Randip Singh (Jul 6, 2009)

Rajs said:


> Re: Legalising Homosexuality
> 
> God created mankind with a divine purpose; man and woman were created as a family unit and reproduction process being the channel of growth and spread of mankind.
> 
> ...



If you are only made to reproduce then what if you cannot have children?


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## Randip Singh (Jul 6, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> LOL Is there any way one can truly recognise who is His/her true soul mate?
> 
> There  are people who fell in love and say that they are true soul mate of each other and will die if separated and after some time of marriage they divorce each other by saying that
> they can't live with each other



If we truly LOVE each other and not LUST after each other then why not?


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## Lee (Jul 6, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> I'm not trying to dodge any question. I am just trying to fathom why people are all of a sudden presuming that Sikhism condones homosexuality amongst its adherents?
> 
> So far all I have seen is the argument that silence (on the part of our scriptures and literature) may suggest acceptance (that is unless I am misunderstanding). I was merely pointing out such an interpretation is mistaken in my view. The argument that something not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib or rehats indicates acceptance is plain false. That is all I was saying.
> 
> ...


 


Dalsingh Ji,

I am glad that you decided to answer my post and applogise if you thought the wording a bit strong.

You see from the words you use I get a sense of what yo belive, so that when you say:

'But saying that this is acceptable within a Sikh lifestyle framework is another matter altogether.'

And:

'The argument that something not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib or rehats indicates acceptance is plain false. That is all I was saying.'

I can quite correctly infer that you belive that homosexuality is not condoned nor considered correct behaviour for any practicing Sikh.
Further, you state that Guru Granths Sahib fails to mention homoexuality,  then I am left wondering exactly from what source this belife of yours comes, and so I have asked (this being the second time) for you to clarify this to me?

The intelectual dishonesty I speak of stems from your seemingly unwillingness to examine such a belife, to find where it comes from, and to decide whether it has any value or merit.

Of course I may be wrong, it may all be a case of myself having not made myself clear?

I an effert to fix any problems of communication betwen us let me offer you my own reasoning for why I belive that Sikhi can do nothing else than embrace homosexuality as as normal human behaviuor.

It is clear that being gay is not a choice, that a gay man or woman can no more choose to be sexualy excited by memebers of the opposite gender than you or I can choose to find members of our own gender sexualy attractive.  If this is the case, then surely a gay man is exactly how God has made him.  Who are we humans then to decide who can and who cannot seek God via the path of Sikhi?

Indeed Guru ji remains silent on the issue, one has to ask why is this.  You are correct it may not mean acceptance, although again I must ask why?  What it is about being homosexaul do you think that many of our religions condone?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 6, 2009)

randip singh said:


> If you are only made to reproduce then what if you cannot have children?


 
Randip Ji,

Then the husband should go and see a Urologist and wife a gyenacologist.

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 6, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Randip Ji,
> 
> Then the husband should go and see a Urologist and wife a gyenacologist.
> 
> Virinder




virindfer Ji,
Nice sense of humour..he he.


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## KulwantK (Jul 6, 2009)

Yes, there certainly are some extremely pressing matters indeed!
Wahe Guru!


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## Randip Singh (Jul 6, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Randip Ji,
> 
> Then the husband should go and see a Urologist and wife a gyenacologist.
> 
> Virinder



What if even after that they cannot have children?

They cannot procreate so what is the point of their marriage?


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## spnadmin (Jul 6, 2009)

randip singh said:


> What if even after that they cannot have children?
> 
> They cannot procreate so what is the point of their marriage?



Randip ji

Another wonderful example that makes me think you have been reading medieval European philosophy. 

 Children can be one purpose for marriage. What is created can be children. But not the only thing that is created in marriage. When we live in an unmarried state there are many aspects of our Ego that go untested. In marriage Ego is tested continually. Marriage is a growth experience unlike few others. Raising children and caring for elderly parents are on the same plane. So then, marriage is also an opportunity to create the perfection of the soul bride, and a chance to overcome that sense of false self through the marriage itself.  

Our path IMHO is to discover how we can be  truly married to each other when both are brides to the Divine Bridegroom, within a marriage and as a single person. So I am wondering whether it is putting the cart before the horse when we explore our earthly predicaments in marriage or in an unmarried state without the overarching goal in sight.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 6, 2009)

randip singh said:


> What if even after that they cannot have children?
> 
> They cannot procreate so what is the point of their marriage?


 
Dear Randip Ji,

Most of the infertility problems have medical answer.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 6, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Randip ji
> 
> Another wonderful example that makes me think you have been reading medieval European philosophy.
> 
> ...



Narayanjot Kaur Jio,
gurfateh Ji.

THAT is exactly why we SIKHS are so incredibly fortunate to have Guru Jis Sikhia by way of the LAAVAN. The Laavan are not just for a worldly marriage/physical relationship/children/procreation etc....the Laavaan carry a much much DEEPER Messgae..a Divine "Constitution" for the Perfect Marriage...if only we listen to what Guru Ji is saying to us...ALAS..we take the Laavan to be just a fromality thta has to be "hurried" through..so we can get to the "Very Important" aspects of Marriage Lunc, wedding Dinner and Dance..bhnagra etc..we have taken the ICING as VITAL..and THROWN AWAY THE CAKE !! if that is not unfortunate..I dont know what is.
Just as Todays cheap skate Iicng..is all fats and bad for us/our health...so is the Marriage Icing..bhangras, dinners, alcohol and dancing, extra rituals and all....ABSOLUTELY HARMFUL for our social Health and well being..we are being KILLED by this POISNOUS ICING...and the result is more and more Divorces/ social problems, fighting, wife ebating, wife burning, domestic violence, children turning into gangsters...etc etc..the LAAVAN CAKE is the REMEDY...we refuse to eat it...and instead choose to DEVOUR the Poisonous Icing...who can help us ??


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## Randip Singh (Jul 7, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Randip Ji,
> 
> Most of the infertility problems have medical answer.
> 
> ...



I beg to differ. 

I know many childless couples. It is becoming an increasing problem.

However, that is not the point. If you cannot have children (despite treatment) what is the point of marriage?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 7, 2009)

Dear Randip Ji,

Firstly I have been a Urologist for 40 years and have treated patients for the problems. One of my grand daughter was fertilized in a dish and implanted later. Adoption is another choice including other medical options.

Besides this one needs the company to be a house holder as advised by our faith and renunciation of family life is not advised.

I have nothing further to say on this thread. Thanks for your interaction.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Randip Singh (Jul 7, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Randip Ji,
> 
> Firstly I have been a Urologist for 40 years and have treated patients for the problems. One of my grand daughter was fertilized in a dish and implanted later. Adoption is another choice including other medical options.
> 
> ...



Grewal ji, you of all people know that some couples cannot have children.

As you have stated adoption is an option and in the UK Gay couples can adopt.

Gay Adoption Group UK. Lesbian Mums & Gay Dads. Support. LGB Adopters & Families

Although religious people have objection.

I said in another post, I know Gay couples who live the lives of a "housholder". Only difference is they are same sex.

I know many of us may find the actual physical acts they do abhorrent, but I can tell you I know many people who find the physical act between a man and a woman abhorrent.

That aside, if a couple love each other, commit to each other, and live a good clean life, where then is the objection?

In India we thing Alexander the Great is almost like a God, yet he was bi-sexual and had a male lover. Maybe we should try and erase that from history books.


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2009)

I found this article on another forum

Robert Epstein, Scientific American Mind,  Vol 20, Number 3, 2009.
Page 68
... A recent position statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics and eight other national organisations agrees that “sexual orientation fall along a continuum.” In other words, sexual attraction is simply not a black and white matter, and the labels straight, and gay do not capture the complexities.
For obvious evolutionary reasons, most people are strongly inclined to prefer opposite sex partners, because such relationships produce children who continue the human race. But a few probably between 3 and 7 percent of the population are exclusively attracted to members of the same sex, and many are in the middle. If a person’s genes place him or her towards one end of what I call the Sexual Orientation Continuum, he or she almost certainly can never become homosexual. If the genes place the person at the other end of the curve, he or she almost certainly cannot become straight – or atleast not a happy straight.* But if an individual is somewhere in between, environment can be a major influence, especially when the person is young. Because society strongly favours the straight life, in the vast majority of cases the shift will be towards heterosexuality.*
The way sexuality plays out is eerily similar to the process by which people become left- or right-handed. I may sound contrary to common sense, but scientific studies suggest that genes play a relatively small role in handedness; its heritability – an estimate of what proportion of a trait’s variability can be accounted for by genes – is only about 0.32 compared with, say, 0.84 for height, and 0.95 for head width. Then why is more than 90 percent of the population right-handed? It is because of that cultural push working again. Subtle and not so subtle influences make children favour their right hand, and the flexibility they probably had when they were young is simply lost as the grow up. Although they can still use the left hand, their handedness becomes so well established that they would find it difficult, if not impossible, to become left-handed.
Preliminary studies by psychologist J. Michael Bailey of Northwestern University, Michael King of University College London and others suggest that the heritability of homosexuality is not much higher than that of handedness – perhaps in the range 0.25 to 0.50 or so for males and somewhat lower for females. This finding raises an intriguing question : If people were raised in a truly orientation-neutral culture, what sexual orientation would they express?* Although it is unlikely that half of us would end up gay, without societal pressure it is clear that a much larger proportion of the population would express homosexuality than we see now.*


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## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2009)

So in other words if Homosexuality becomes acceptable we will find much more homosexuals according to this research.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 7, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> So in other words if Homosexuality becomes acceptable we will find much more homosexuals according to this research.



Thats is the intention...imho...
IF its "criminal"..then it will be underground..in secret..IF "acceptable"..it will come out in the open...
Hiding ones head under the carpet doesnt mean a thing...SWITCHING on the LIGHT reveals all the rubbish/treasures...in the room...if the light is switched off and we cant "see" anything doesnt mean all the rubbish and the treasures are NOT THERE.

1. all this while the west society condemned this..its condemned in the Bible, the Old testament, the Koran etc...lately they have become more liberal...
  2. IN Sikh Scriptures..sggs or rehitnamahs the subject is not discussed at all....so its up to us the Panth to decide our position on the touchstone of Gurbani in sggs...


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## spnadmin (Jul 7, 2009)

Forgive me...in these times, Who is the Panth?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 8, 2009)

I fail to understand why this fear against homosexuality. Someone else's sexual orientation does not affect my life in any shape or form. My heterosexuality is not in danger because of them. 

We know that homosexuality also exists in the animal kingdom, so it is not a choice but part of creation.

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jul 8, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> So in other words if Homosexuality becomes acceptable we will find much more homosexuals according to this research.



KDS ji.

In society homosexuality is far less acceptable then say the time of Alexander the great (when it was actually encouraged). Christianity has done a lot to do this. The traditional Indian attitude has been tolerance.

Homophobia is real. I have heard my Gay friends get abuse because of this.

In anycase there are may articles on this. Some claim this is inherited, and some its genetic.

BBC NEWS | Health | How homosexuality is 'inherited'


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## kds1980 (Jul 8, 2009)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I fail to understand why this fear against homosexuality. Someone else's sexual orientation does not affect my life in any shape or form. My heterosexuality is not in danger because of them.
> 
> We know that homosexuality also exists in the animal kingdom, so it is not a choice but part of creation.
> 
> Tejwant Singh



I am not afraid of homosexuality.I am just concerned about its impact on society especially like India.This world is designed in hetrosexual way not homosexual.People share Rooms,prisons,hostels,bathrooms with same sex 
and not with other sex.Homosexuality some time is also the result of sexual starvation and Many Indians are sexually starved so chances are they will induldge in homosexual acts.It is also possible that strong men will force 
weak men to have sex with them in prisons or hostels.We have already seen this in Ragging as in there is quite an increase in case of suicides by students.In some of those cases forcing them to do homosexual acts was not uncommon.Tejwant ji sometimes some things look good on paper but when introduced  in society then it does not produce good results.


Also  I don't understand why people are giving arguements that homosexuality exists in nature so it is natural.By this logic Rape and forced sex also exists in nature as It is the way of passing powerful genes so it is also natural.


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## Lee (Jul 8, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> I am not afraid of homosexuality.I am just concerned about its impact on society especially like India.This world is designed in hetrosexual way not homosexual.People share Rooms,prisons,hostels,bathrooms with same sex
> and not with other sex.Homosexuality some time is also the result of sexual starvation and Many Indians are sexually starved so chances are they will induldge in homosexual acts.It is also possible that strong men will force
> weak men to have sex with them in prisons or hostels.We have already seen this in Ragging as in there is quite an increase in case of suicides by students.In some of those cases forcing them to do homosexual acts was not uncommon.Tejwant ji sometimes some things look good on paper but when introduced in society then it does not produce good results.
> 
> ...


 

Then the deeper question would be why?  Why are you concerend about the homosexual impact on society?  What is it about same gender love that has you concerned, is just the thought o same geneder sex?

Homosexuality does indeed exist in anture, and so does rape so you are correct both are natural.  This argument though is really one to counter the argument that homosexual sex is unnatural.

Tell me though can you even name me one thing that is unnatural?

People do in fact share rooms, prisions, hostels with both genders, what makes you think they do not?

You appear to be speaking from a position of ignorance, educate your self my freind, it does wonders for you.


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## kds1980 (Jul 8, 2009)

Lee said:


> Then the deeper question would be why?  Why are you concerend about the homosexual impact on society?  What is it about same gender love that has you concerned, is just the thought o same geneder sex?
> 
> Homosexuality does indeed exist in anture, and so does rape so you are correct both are natural.  This argument though is really one to counter the argument that homosexual sex is unnatural.
> 
> ...



Lee ji

May be people share rooms,hostels,prisons In Europe or in USA but Not in
India..

I am concerned about its impact because in last 20-30 years Indian urban society has already lost much of its family values.the fast materialistic western life is replacing that.If homosexuality become's another fashion symbol then you will find large number of youths doing it just for fun and even forcing others to do it.


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## Lee (Jul 8, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> Lee ji
> 
> May be people share rooms,hostels,prisons In Europe or in USA but Not in
> India..
> ...


 

Again though I have seen this argument,'Homosexuality effects family values'  but not a srhed of evidance to show that it does.

How does homosexuality ruin family values?
What does it matter if large numbers of youths engage in homosexual behaviour?  How is this worse than large numbers of youth engaing in hetrosexual behaviour?
What exactly is bad about homosexuality?

All I have had thus far is the same old tired, unproven, knee jerk reaction.  Where is the thought, what of reasoning?  You belive this obviously, so why, why do you belive all of this, what are the reasons, where is your reasoning?

Wait.... you have thought about this belife of yours? It's not one of these unfounded belifes that you hold but have never considered the reasons why, is it?

Why we are on thinking through beliefs and the reason why we hold to them, why is it considered good to hold to tradition, why not change, is change bad?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 8, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> I am not afraid of homosexuality.I am just concerned about its impact on society especially like India.This world is designed in hetrosexual way not homosexual.People share Rooms,prisons,hostels,bathrooms with same sex
> and not with other sex.Homosexuality some time is also the result of sexual starvation and Many Indians are sexually starved so chances are they will induldge in homosexual acts.It is also possible that strong men will force
> weak men to have sex with them in prisons or hostels.We have already seen this in Ragging as in there is quite an increase in case of suicides by students.In some of those cases forcing them to do homosexual acts was not uncommon.Tejwant ji sometimes some things look good on paper but when introduced  in society then it does not produce good results.
> 
> ...



Kds ji,

Guru fateh.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt when you say that you have no fear about homosexuality. If it is not fear then it is  bias. It is up to you to decide which is worse for the inner growth of a Sikh as an individual.

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jul 8, 2009)

kds1980 said:


> I am not afraid of homosexuality.I am just concerned about its impact on society especially like India.This world is designed in hetrosexual way not homosexual.People share Rooms,prisons,hostels,bathrooms with same sex
> and not with other sex.Homosexuality some time is also the result of sexual starvation and Many Indians are sexually starved so chances are they will induldge in homosexual acts.It is also possible that strong men will force
> weak men to have sex with them in prisons or hostels.We have already seen this in Ragging as in there is quite an increase in case of suicides by students.In some of those cases forcing them to do homosexual acts was not uncommon.Tejwant ji sometimes some things look good on paper but when introduced  in society then it does not produce good results.
> 
> ...




KDS ji you have to spend some time with me and meet some of my Gay friends. They come to my house, play with my children. Some are deeply spiritual. Some are real prudes, some are promiscuous. Some are loud, some are quiet.

Guess what, my heterosexual friends to come to my house, play with my children. Some are deeply spiritual. Some are real prudes, some are promiscuous. Some are loud, some are quiet.

I would like to know how many people actually on this forum have Gay friends, that they actually have come to their house?


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## Lee (Jul 9, 2009)

randip singh said:


> KDS ji you have to spend some time with me and meet some of my Gay friends. They come to my house, play with my children. Some are deeply spiritual. Some are real prudes, some are promiscuous. Some are loud, some are quiet.
> 
> Guess what, my heterosexual friends to come to my house, play with my children. Some are deeply spiritual. Some are real prudes, some are promiscuous. Some are loud, some are quiet.
> 
> I would like to know how many people actually on this forum have Gay friends, that they actually have come to their house?


 

Randip ji,

Well said.  Like most people I have friends from all levels of life, some are gay, some are straigth, some are bi, some are lesbian.  Some are black some are white, some are Indian, some are Pakistani, some are even American! ;¬)

I'm reminded of growing up as a child of the late 70's early 80's here in London UK.  I well remember the race riots and recall the calls of how unatural it is for a black person to 'go out' with a white person.  Thankfully those days are fast dissapering as the majority of folk reconise the inherent bigotry in such a stance.  It reminds me of now, and the inherent bigotry displayed by all of those who proclaim homosexual love as unatural.  Really it is stupid people with outdated ideas. 

I know though, from experinace, that the children of these people are likely to grow up and throwout the wasted ideals of their perants in favour of more enlightend ones.  We are all of the same species, and we are all exactly as God made us.  For any religous person this is far more important to realise, far far more important for Sikhs, than to take rubbish dogma from other religoins and incorperate it into the Sikh mindest.

I have one simple question for those confused souls.  What is it about homosexuality that is bad?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 9, 2009)

I, myself have attended gay marriages of both men and women, both in the UK and in Brasil. I still keep friendship with these gay friends of mine since I left UK in 1975 and Brasil in 1985. Some have grown up kids now. It has never affected my sexuality in any way or form.

So, this fear and insecurity laced with bias is unfounded, especially in Sikhi

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 9, 2009)

Another of those subjects into which "sikhi/gurmatt" is dragged in needlessly. Since Guru Ji didnt even mention it..its not IMPORTANT for growth on the Spiritual path towards Merger with the Creator..IF it was a "hindrance in any way" Guru Ji would ahve mentioned it strongly..like He did Kaam, Krodh, Lust, Anger, Lobh Attachment, Moh Hankaar Pride etc
THESE are the REAL DANGERS...MOST FREQUENTLY MENTIONED BY GURU JI...yet we "ignore" them and run after mundane homos, and lesbians..or jump on the meat is bad for you bandwagon...misplaced senses....


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## Amandeep_barabanki (Jul 14, 2009)

everybody here is trying to say that people should give away homosexuality, but is it really possible?
can u(being straight) turn homosexual even if u try ur best?
the answer is no!!!

none of the homos can turn straight coz homosexuality is not a disorder!
There is no human that woke up some day and decided to turn gay then after, our sexuality is decided when we r born, the only thing is when do u urself come to know about it!!!
and mind it, homosexuality is not introduced by the foreigners it is present in one's mind(if it is)!!!


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## Lee (Jul 15, 2009)

Amandeep_barabanki said:


> everybody here is trying to say that people should give away homosexuality, but is it really possible?
> can u(being straight) turn homosexual even if u try ur best?
> the answer is no!!!
> 
> ...


 

Indeed, yet some people still refuse to belive this.  To these I ask you to perform a simple experiment to ascertian the truth of the matter.

Try for just one day to be sexualy attracted to a member of your own gender, and them report back here how it goes.


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## Amandeep_barabanki (Jul 15, 2009)

well said, and u know this is what heterosexuals are afraid of(Thinking of them bieng attracted to same sex)!
they just start thinking that being near a gay would affect them,and the most basic thought is that does he or she think about having sex with them.......

This is a **** thought, first of all i would like to ask the so called heterosexual boys that do u fall for any women u see? whether she's ur kind or not?
obviously not!
then why would homosexuals fall for u? Firstly They have thier own choices,and secondly they r interested in thier own kinds(homos).......so give up the feeling of insecurity and think of the topic with a broad mind and try to know more about homosexuals before abusing them!!!


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## Lee (Jul 16, 2009)

Amandeep_barabanki said:


> well said, and u know this is what heterosexuals are afraid of(Thinking of them bieng attracted to same sex)!
> they just start thinking that being near a gay would affect them,and the most basic thought is that does he or she think about having sex with them.......
> 
> This is a **** thought, first of all i would like to ask the so called heterosexual boys that do u fall for any women u see? whether she's ur kind or not?
> ...


 

Hah Hah ji,

That is quiet a general statement you have made there, I understand though what you mean.  Being straight myself I have never felt this way, but you are correct some straight men do have this irrational fear.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 16, 2009)

Gurfateh

Well over here. Das is just poking his nose to tell some happening in India. Shri Akal Takhat Sahib, Hindus of RSS, Muslims and Christians are opposing the ruling of court which says homosexuality is not illegal in India.

Das views are that they could be integrated even faith does not allow them and idiotic Arya Samaji Ramdev, one eyed Yoga Teacher who is at the forefront of Anti Gays and lesbianism should himself be treated for xenophobia(Das thinks this means fear from Humans if some other meaning is there then kindly correct it). He says that mentaly ill people are gays. Das says that with hatred toward gay or any human even sinner or offender, Ramdev himself needs treatment. His brand of Yoga has failed him.


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## Amandeep_barabanki (Jul 16, 2009)

Baba Ramdev tries to quote statements from religious and law books that homosexuality is unnatural and should be banned, and secondly in a TV show he said that we should try to convert the homosexuals into straights, then i would kindly request him to learn about the tests and thier results done on homos that say that homosexuality is not a state of mind that can be changed(sexuality can never be converted), he should first learn things and then speak about them.....on a second thought he should not speak at all,he should concentrate on what he can do best(although it doesnt work) rather than challenging nature and the laws!!!


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## Amandeep_barabanki (Jul 16, 2009)

yup, sorry for making it so general, but i meant to address those heterosexual people that start opposing homos even before learning anything about homosexuality, and majority of them do so!


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## Randip Singh (Jul 16, 2009)

Amandeep_barabanki said:


> well said, and u know this is what heterosexuals are afraid of(Thinking of them bieng attracted to same sex)!
> they just start thinking that being near a gay would affect them,and the most basic thought is that does he or she think about having sex with them.......
> 
> This is a **** thought, first of all i would like to ask the so called heterosexual boys that do u fall for any women u see? whether she's ur kind or not?
> ...



Hehe very funny and a very good point.

Maybe people should watch "American Beauty" .


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## gaysikh_uk (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm a gay Sikh keshadhari man and I have always felt that it was with Waheguruji's kirpa that I'm gay. It's not a choice. It's not a sexual 'preference'. It's my identity, and it's a gift from the Akal Purakh in much the same way that I consider my hair and my limbs to be a gift from the Almighty.

People tend to confuse the concept of Kaam with any non-procreative sexual activity, and see homosexuals as having been rejected by the Gurus due to the teachings in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Unfortunately, those individuals tend to have a very superficial understanding of what the SGGS actually says. Kaam is not sexual-activity in itself, but rather excessive sexual activity or excessive lust. 

It must be borne in mind that procreation in itself requires 'lustful' sexual activity, otherwise it is not possible for a child to be conceived. If Kaam truly related to all sexual activity, then the Sikh ideal would be for sanyassi rather than grishti jeevan.

It is also a misnomer to believe that the concept of Kaam is something which excludes homosexuals from being Sikhs. If the Gurus had wanted to specifically state that homosexuality was wrong, they would have done so. The Koran has specific statements relating to sexual activity, including homosexual acts, and there were plenty of openly-gay individuals living in the Indian sub-continent from 1469 to 1708, including gay pirs and bhagats such as Sarmad. 

The Gurus knew of homosexuals living in their society. They didn't comment on it as sexuality in itself was not of concern. What mattered to them most was the way in which somebody lives his or her life. 

There's a good website that I know of which has a number of articles about homosexuality and Sikhism - SARBAT.NET - the one-stop resource for Gay Sikhs - I would suggest that you have a read through some of them to gain a greater understanding on the issues that affect gay Sikhs in the present day.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Mann415 (Nov 3, 2009)

HI,
   I am 100% agree with SIKH from USA. kandola God has created things but he has also created a brain to think. He gives you a option and you are an individual and choose what you prefer based on your consciences and other factors. Did you ever wonder why Kaam was the first in Don't do list.Guru ji told us to beware of 5 worldly things could lead us to disaster as you already know. Have u ever wonder why wrong things are consider wrong. Don't get me wrong i am not bashing gays but it is as wrong as if you buy a sex. God did not create homosexuality ,it's Man's lust. Just like people will have sex with new partner every other day. Sex was something made for reproduction and i think God created this pleasure so we would crate another humans to keep the cycle running.: thumbup:
it the pleasure could lead you to derailed from the path of God and it is true and it goes both way.It apply to those men who change women for pleasure or like to have multiple partners. Its all depends how you want to lead your life and if you looking for just pleasure in this life then its you own perception to make it rite. How many sexual diseases humans have had created because of Lust. Some were created by gay men and some were created by people who has multiple partners. And we still don't learn that God is warning us to stop but hey People still does not stop. How many people are dieing everyday because they had made Lusty wrong decisions...
Im sure alot of you not gonna be agree with me and hey and its your opinion.
How many of us has come to this world and gone......


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## Lee (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm afraid Mann ji, that you are entirly wrong.

Sexual preferance is no more a choice than the colour of your eyes.  Unless you can bring to the table verifyable scientific evidance that I am wrong?


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## Satyaban (Nov 3, 2009)

Namaste Mann ji

The original post included this statement:
"1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman."
To use this argument against homosexuality one must first believe the Torah or Bible to be understood as literal and true not as metaphor and myth.

Mann ji you said: "God did not create homosexuality ,it's Man's lust."
It is my belief that God, The Creator, created all including homosexuality, man's lust even what we flush down the toilet. "All is God and there is nothing without God"

For sure there are people who are mentally ill and very confused, I like to refer to them as God's special creations but on the whole people are born homo. and that is it no choice. Also their love affairs are just as legitimate as any others.

Peace
Satyaban


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## kggr (Apr 29, 2011)

Can someone tell me 

why gays marry if they cant reproduce?


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## Amandeep_barabanki (Apr 29, 2011)

reproduction and marriage r 2 different things.
One need not marry to reproduce.
Marriage means choosing a life partner to live with, nothing more nothing less.


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## kds1980 (Apr 29, 2011)

Amandeep_barabanki said:


> reproduction and marriage r 2 different things.
> One need not marry to reproduce.
> Marriage means choosing a life partner to live with, nothing more nothing less.



Just apply same logic to marriage.One don't need marriage to live with life partner


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## Randip Singh (Apr 29, 2011)

kggr said:


> Can someone tell me
> 
> why gays marry if they cant reproduce?



I know many men and women who have married and are together who cannot have children or have chosen not too.

Maybe they should not get married.

Sorry but your point is pretty lame. :whatzpointsing:


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## Randip Singh (Apr 29, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Just apply same logic to marriage.One don't need marriage to live with life partner




I think if you are a Sikh you do. The reason why is, because a Sikh does not hide away. A Sikh always proclaims otwardly, I am here and I have done this. When He/she affirms their marriage, they are telling the world, we are doing this and we have nothing to hide.


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## kds1980 (Apr 29, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> I think if you are a Sikh you do. The reason why is, because a Sikh does not hide away. A Sikh always proclaims otwardly, I am here and I have done this. When He/she affirms their marriage, they are telling the world, we are doing this and we have nothing to hide.



My Reply was directed towards Amandeep who is saying that one don't need to get married to reproduce.I don't think sikhism sanction  Children out of wedlock,so if someone can use logic of Children without marriage then he/she can think of life partner without marriage


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## Amandeep_barabanki (Apr 29, 2011)

u said y do gays marry if they cant reproduce.....but u never said, y do SIKH GAYS marry if they cant reproduce.
My answer was a general one.


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## kggr (May 1, 2011)

Is gay marriage allowed in sikhism?


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## spnadmin (May 1, 2011)

kggr said:


> Is gay marriage allowed in sikhism?



You are asking if it is "allowed." The short answer is NO. 

The longer answer is a question. Is gay marriage "allowed" or "forbidden" --- by whom? And allowed or forbidden, according to whose doctrine? I do know of only one instance among Sikhs that involved followers of Yogi Bhajan (perhaps there are others). There are no texts that allow or forbid it. Would a sangat permit it? Who would officiate? Most of the larger, mainstream religions, Abrahamic and Dharmic alike, do not allow it. Therefore, I don't think the answer to your question can be divorced from politics and culture.


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## kggr (May 1, 2011)

What did guru's say about homosexuality?


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## spnadmin (May 1, 2011)

kggr said:


> What did guru's say about homosexuality?



The Gurusahiban never mentioned it.


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2011)

What would they say? What would wise men from the 1500s say about homosexuality?


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## spnadmin (May 1, 2011)

Why do you ask kggr ji?


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## kggr (May 2, 2011)

I think gay isnt good.

Because a sikh need to live like our guru's.


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## findingmyway (May 2, 2011)

kggr said:


> I think gay isnt good.
> 
> Because a sikh need to live like our guru's.



In which case you should also stop using electricity, cars and aeroplanes etc. We need to live in the spirit of our Guru's and they did not discriminate against anyone. We are too quick to judge others!


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## Randip Singh (May 2, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> What would they say? What would wise men from the 1500s say about homosexuality?



Interesting how since the rise of the Abrahamic religions homosexuality seems to have become taboo!!

I am sure the Guru's were aware of it, but did not think it was evil or bad, or prevent someone from becoming a Sikh, or they would have specifically stated (like Christian texts), homosexuals are evil.

They didn't, and it is not.


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## Randip Singh (May 2, 2011)

kggr said:


> I think gay isnt good.
> 
> Because a sikh need to live like our guru's.



Do you concern yourself with what goes on in the bedroom of a man and woman who are married? If not, then why are you concerned about what happens with two men (or women)?


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## spnadmin (May 2, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> Interesting how since the rise of the Abrahamic religions homosexuality seems to have become taboo!!
> 
> I am sure the Guru's were aware of it, but did not think it was evil or bad, or prevent someone from becoming a Sikh, or they would have specifically stated (like Christian texts), homosexuals are evil.
> 
> They didn't, and it is not.



Would you mind if I add...serous reading of SGGS might even lead one to think that the human race had then and has now bigger fish to fry, problems that each individual really needs to deal with every day.


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## notreligious (May 3, 2011)

I do not understand why people are so bothered about other people's sex lives! Until you understand your own true nature fully do not judge other people. 

Life's lessons are many and it is not for you or me to judge what incarnation a person has chosen for themselves. Until you love each soul unconditionally, you can try and impress each other with quotes from the scriptures to flatter your own ego's but but don't pretend that you are being enlightened in any way.

I cannot concieve of an all loving force that is the universal universe/God that would reject and soul for chosing a life that was different from what is considered "normal". We come to each to learn some hard lessons. The rejections of racism, sexism and all prejudice is what is important. That includes anti-homosexual attitudes.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 4, 2011)

Sikhism is Simple and the Gurus were also Simple.
SEX between Man and woman is necessary for Procreation. That union has social obligations or otherwise. Sikhism recognises those obligations and endorses them.

OUTSIDE of "marriage" ( socially and legally acceptable)....SEX is a KAAM..and a RASS. ALL RASS are DISCOURAGED. Period. See page 15 SGGS Sri Raag. Rass means essentially.. CRAVING..excessive liking..addiction....and thus nay "RASS"....be it connected with money...sugary stuff (sweets, barfees, jalebis, ladoos, honey..) be it Fast cars and loose women, beautiful women, sex toys, ...alcohol and pubs, bhnagras and discos....be it huge and lavish mansions, soft pillows, damsace bedspreads, silk clothes, best horses, feraris, bmws etc..be it taste buds feeding on latest roast turkeys, beef salamis and pork ribs, exotic kheers, paneers, pizzas, daal makhni and daal karrahis, stuffed karelehs, and pan vataoouns...WHATEVER...WHATEVER...WHATEVER..even Rass of addiction to Face Book/SPN/GMail/Internet Blogs..or window shopping...etc etc..!! Bottom Line when the CRAVING GETS SO BAD..it begins to eat you inside out..thats wehen the LINE is CROSSED...an innocwent past time has turned into a monster called RASS..and SGGS warns us about crossing that line !!

This is why Homosexual sex was never discussed by the Gurus..its a "past time"...NOT Necessary for PROCREATION. Just like a thousand and one other such things not touched upon by the Gurus...bestilaity...masturbation, gang rapes etc etc. In actual fact SEX is a very engrossing subject ONLY in the Abrahamic Religious traditions..Jews, Christians and Islam. In the Hindu tradition its on mandir walls but still not that widely LEGISLATED as in the Abrahamic texts...Dos and Donts and Punishments etc.


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## davinderdhanjal (May 4, 2011)

I imagine a saint soldier and gay!
In war would you be turned on by fellow soldiers and in gurdwaras would you behave like the Catholic priests abusing young boys?
If by being gay you mean you prefer company of males rather than females and can contribute to Sikhi as a gurmukh - I would assume you would be more of an asset than say Badel, SGPC crowd, Punjab Police.
I agree with above comments on 'too much of anything is bad' I do however wonder sometimes if singing praises of god all the time comes in that category. 
If one has oriented onself to 'truthful living' it would moderate most elements of life.


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## notreligious (May 4, 2011)

Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh

With respect I think you are confusing the act of sex and a state of mind or sexual orientation. There is nothing wrong with loving sex between two consenting adults if it belongs within a loving relationship. This includes same sex relationships.

Why do you think that sex between two homosexual men is an addiction? Is it any more an addiction between a man and wife? I think the answer is no.

Does anyone stop and think that a person may incarnate to experience what it is like to be gay? To feel society's prejudice?

The scriptures are but guides. No one can teach you how to love and it is love that is food for the soul. It is love for all that is the purpose of life - not to simply try and follow the lives of beings gone past but to experience unconditional love yourself and towards everyone. Love is the food that one brings back to the univeral universe or God.


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## Randip Singh (May 5, 2011)

notreligious said:


> Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh
> 
> With respect I think you are confusing the act of sex and a state of mind or sexual orientation. There is nothing wrong with loving sex between two consenting adults if it belongs within a loving relationship. This includes same sex relationships.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think Gyani ji is saying that. I think what he is saying, the sex life of a householder is healthy. Be it man women, man man etc etc, but when people  get addicted to something like Kaam or sex, that is very different. The sexual act as an at of love.


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## Randip Singh (May 5, 2011)

davinderdhanjal said:


> I imagine a saint soldier and gay!
> In war would you be turned on by fellow soldiers and in gurdwaras would you behave like the Catholic priests abusing young boys?


 
Alexander the Great was Gay, one of the greatest warriors who ever lived. So being a Soldier or Saint dom has nothing to do with this.

Also to confuse mmolesting of children is wrong. Many if not most child molesters tend to be hetrosexual.

...and the statement by being  "turned on by fellow soldiers" implies that Gay people are less able to control their sexual nature than a hetrosexual. That is plain wrong.


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## spnadmin (May 5, 2011)

What Randip has said:



> Also to confuse mmolesting of children is wrong. Many if not most child molesters tend to be hetrosexual.



This is a documented fact. Most child molesters are heterosexual. This has been fact for decades.


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## Ambarsaria (May 5, 2011)

Let us try to re-home this thread as follows,

*Question Posed**:   Sikhism and Homosexuality

*

Do our Guru's/Gurbani teach us to discriminate one versus the other?
No
 
Do our Guru's/Gurbani teach to live a practical life including procreation and raising families through the union of man and a woman?
Yes
 
At a practical level considering Guru's teachings and Gurbani, does Sikh Rehat Maryada differentiate between Heterosexual and Homosexual aspects of living?
Yes
In what sense!
Anand Karaj is between a man and a woman
 
 
 
Is there need to change and accommodate Homosexuality in Anad Karaj type situations?
Not for me to say but Sri Akal Takhat Sahib has already stated that this shall not be accommodated
Do I agree with Sri Akal Takhat Sahib?
Yes
 
Does it matter if I agree with it or not?
No
 
 
 
Does Sikhism need to shun Homosexuals and Lesbians and the celibate?
No
They are as much created by the creation/creator/God as any one else
 
 
Is it counter-productive for Homosexuals, Lesbians and celibate to force their acceptance into each and every aspect, rites, celebrations, etc., versus the majority Heterosexual?
My personal belief,
Yes
 
 
Do Heterosexuals get offended by overt displays of Homosexual conduct like men kissing in public in a lip-lock, holding each others butts, etc., ?
Yes most do
Should they?
A personal choice.
 
 
 
Is Homosexuality a disease or part of creation/creator/God?
No
It is part of creation and examples abound in other species and life forms.
 
 
Doesn't every man and woman have so classified feminine and masculine attributes?
Yes
Is the percentage mix of such attributes the same in every man and woman?
No
 
 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7ZmCJigATU&feature=player_detailpagejapposatnamwaheguru: japposatnamwaheguru: ​ 
*Chill*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  *Chill*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
Sat Sri Akal.


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## findingmyway (May 6, 2011)

> Do our Guru's/Gurbani teach us to discriminate one versus the other?
> 
> No





> Is there need to change and accommodate Homosexuality in Anad Karaj type situations?Not for me to say but Sri Akal Takhat Sahib has already stated that this shall not be accommodated
> 
> Do I agree with Sri Akal Takhat Sahib?
> Yes



Are these not opposing? Is the 2nd statement not a form of discrimination?



> Do Heterosexuals get offended by overt displays of Homosexual conduct like men kissing in public in a lip-lock, holding each others butts, etc., ?Yes most do



I also get offended by public displays of affection by heterosexual couples and that occurs more often than by homosexual couples. I don't want to be subjected to it other way without discrimination!


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## BhagatSingh (May 7, 2011)

Perhaps, we need to separate the idea of modern marriages (with or WITHOUT kids) and traditional marriages (always with kids). This makes a difference with regards to my question below. I see Anand karaj as the latter, just because it is from that time period.
So assuming that Anand karaj must only take place between a man and a woman. Would it be more healthy for a child to have 2 parents , one of each sex?


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## Ambarsaria (May 7, 2011)

findingmyway ji some comments


findingmyway said:


> Are these not opposing? Is the 2nd statement not a form of discrimination?
> 
> 
> _I am comfortable with the position of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib but would not be bothered if it is changed to include non-heterosexual marriages.  So I am not spending any energy in this matter as for my life it is a triviality for my lifestyle whether such is sanctioned for all or not._
> ...


Take care.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (May 14, 2011)

I think very few of us are perfect, none of us adhere to the guidelines as laid out for us in the SGGS. I do not see why these rules cannot be taken on board by the sikh gay community, if such a thing exists. When I was younger, I read an english translation of a passage from the SGGS that went along the lines of 'if another woman is in your thoughts other than your wife, you will burn in hell'. I think if a gay man can show faithfulness and loyalty to his partner, and if he is interested in the path of enlightenment be prepared that one day he will have to make a decision as to what he loves most. A gay man loving sex is not unique, I happen to love sex, but only within the confines of my relationship with my wife. 

Is the failing the gayness or the lust, I would say the lust. From what I now understand sikhism is open to all and everyone to follow the path to eventual enlightenment, at the point of eventual enlightenment, I would imagine we would all look and feel the same, with our long hair, love of the creator, and the ability to love the creator back, dwarfing our love and desires for other wordly matters. I have not even started to play the game, I am still learning the rules! But I am sure there are other people, gay or otherwise, who are much further down the path than me, and I am sure that their current sexuality and desires makes no difference at all to where they will find themselves if that love of the creator keeps increasing.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 8, 2011)

This is some kool stuff I found on that LGBT website sarbat.net:

*Mainstream Sikhs*

80% of Sikhs do not have long hair or wear turbans
Some may be recognised by a metal bracelet on the left or right arm (if they wear one)
Do not have any specific dietary requirements, but may avoid Beef.
Generally educated people who like to drink!

*Khalsa Sikhs*

Baptised Sikhs, as initiated by the 10th Guru
Wear 5Ks/articles of faith:
Kara  (bracelet); Kesh (uncut hair); Kachera (shorts/underwear); Kanga (comb); Kirpan (short dagger)
Dietary lifestyle includes: tee totalling, vegetarianism or avoid halal/Beef
Perform 5-7 meditations per day
Constitute small % of Sikh community
Control 99% of all Gurdwaras in the world


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## kds1980 (Jun 8, 2011)

LGBT Sikhs are really smart .they have created a website which is also serving them purpose of casual dating.Poor straight Sikhs still get the lectures that pre marital sex is wrong or relationship outside marriage is wrong .No Sikh site for dating (casual) exists for them


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## findingmyway (Jun 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> LGBT Sikhs are really smart .they have created a website which is also serving them purpose of casual dating.Poor straight Sikhs still get the lectures that pre marital sex is wrong or relationship outside marriage is wrong .No Sikh site for dating (casual) exists for them



Incorrect. In the UK there are at least 3 websites that allow casual dating for Sikhs. The tone of your message also tells me you are jealous and have the common misconception that being gay is all about relationships and there is nothing else in life. Whether gay or straight, the same rules apply about controlling lust and deciding whether pre marital sex or dating is ok.


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## kds1980 (Jun 9, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Incorrect. In the UK there are at least 3 websites that allow casual dating for Sikhs. The tone of your message also tells me you are jealous and have the common misconception that being gay is all about relationships and there is nothing else in life. Whether gay or straight, the same rules apply about controlling lust and deciding whether pre marital sex or dating is ok.



Do these websites justify by having Gurbani on their front page? do these websites have Sikhnames?

As far my message is concerned I just checked that forum yesterday and whatever posts I found are hardly in line what is told in Sikhism.Some are saying that one night stand is O.K ,some others are openly saying they have a wife but still they with other man,while some are openly telling that they have relationships with men and women .since when these things are allowed in Sikhism?

As far jealousy is concerned the only people I am jealous in this world are cricketers because I wanted to be like them


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## findingmyway (Jun 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> do these websites have Sikhnames?



Yes



> As far my message is concerned I just checked that forum yesterday and whatever posts I found are hardly in line what is told in Sikhism.Some are saying that one night stand is O.K ,some others are openly saying they have a wife but still they with other man,while some are openly telling that they have relationships with men and women .since when these things are allowed in Sikhism?


Actually none of the officially written part of the website says this. The things you talk about were in the discussion forum part of the website and they were some poster's personal views. If you read the full entries other people on the forum have used Gurbani to say one night stands and multiple partners are wrong. We have many opinions given by different people on this forum too and not all in line with Gurmat.

Anyway I am not here to argue. I do not know their website and am not supporting or condoning anyone. However, I do not want SPN to be accused of twisting the truth and maligning others. There are plenty of other websites and forums that do that.
 


> As far jealousy is concerned the only people I am jealous in this world are cricketers because I wanted to be like them


Good to know where your prioroties lie


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## kds1980 (Jun 9, 2011)

> Actually none of the officially written part of the website says this. The things you talk about were in the discussion forum part of the website and they were some poster's personal views. If you read the full entries other people on the forum have used Gurbani to say one night stands and multiple partners are wrong. We have many opinions given by different people on this forum too and not all in line with Gurmat.
> 
> Anyway I am not here to argue. I do not know their website and am not supporting or condoning anyone. However, I do not want SPN to be accused of twisting the truth and maligning others. There are plenty of other websites and forums that do that.



A discussion forum tell a lot about website.There is website hindu-sikh .org or something like it  whose official part tell that its aim is to promote harmony and brotherhood between sikhs and Hindu's but it has one most ugliest attacking sikhism forum .their only aim is to question and attack sikhism ,they too can easily escape the accusation of being anti sikh 
as it is the only forum that attacks Sikhism


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## michaelulukaiu (May 19, 2012)

Malo le lei Kandola ji,

I am very new to Sikhism but of the very limited knowledge I have I gather that it is a unity of spirits. Some variations on the relationship could be a non-sexual relationship between two men (celibacy which I understand is frowned upon? Excuse me if I am wrong)? What if a post menopausal Kaur still has relations with her Husband, is that not purely lust as their is no possibilty to bare child? 

Every Sikhi I have met has been so kind and accepting I can only see personal opinion to whether Homosexuality belongs in Sikhism. I really hope that it is just one more thing that another religion(s) discriminate against while we accept it and continue to view all as equal. If anything I have said is wrong or offends anyone, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Malo aupito,

Michael :redturban:


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## Harry Haller (May 19, 2012)

I know of a few Amritdhari homosexuals whose devotion to Sikhi life puts mine to shame (actually thats not that hard), I find the sexual orientation irrelevant, they have long term partners, some also Amritdhari, and see the human race as one, which it is


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## Archived_member15 (May 19, 2012)

Michael Leach writes: 

*"...The average Catholic is proud of the Pope's affirmation of life wherever he goes. She wishes more leaders, in the church and in the world, would witness to the truth that all of life is sacred: from womb to tomb; in the unborn and the dying; the murderer on death row and the mother in a coma; the soldier in Afghanistan and the homeless family in Iraq; the child abused by a pedophile and the pensioner who can't afford a doctor; in the oil-poisoned Gulf and the coal mines of Pennsylvania; in the Arab and in the Israeli. The average Catholic has a high moral standard but is reluctant to chastise anyone, other than himself, who doesn't live up to it.*
*The average Catholic knows from experience that birth control is a blessing and that abortion is a tragedy. She values the virtues of fidelity and chastity but would never call sex outside of marriage or divorce and remarriage sins. To him that would mean calling a person he doesn't even know a sinner. The average Catholic is deathly afraid of throwing stones. The only sinner she's greatly familiar with is herself. When told that "God hates the sin but loves the sinner," the average Catholic voices confusion. How can anyone separate the two? And if God is Love, how can God hate? The average Catholic prefers to cultivate an attitude of unconditional love and forgiveness -- until somebody steps on his toes. The average Catholic is rarely interested in anyone's sexual orientation. He finds public or private talk about the sexual activities of homosexuals or heterosexuals tasteless and can't understand why anyone would want to flog or flaunt, persecute or parade sexuality of any kind...."* 

Homosexuality, as a sexual orientation, is accepted in Catholicism as being perfectly fine. Homosexuality is not something that we consider, as do many Christian denominations apart from ay ultra-liberal Protestants, to be "sinful" or in need of change in the individual. 

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: 


*2358* _The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible...*They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.* Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. ……_

The commentary on this part by Fr James Martin reads: 


"..._the Catechism reminds Catholics that being a homosexual in many modern cultures is still fraught with difficulty. It can be a painful struggle for a gay person to accept himself or herself as someone loved by God. As most of us know, bullying, beatings and, in rare cases, murder, is often part of being a gay or lesbian teen. As a result, the rate of suicides among gay teens is significantly higher than it is for straight teens in our country. In other parts of the world the situation is more dire: in some countries homosexual activity can bring imprisonment or execution..." _

To this end the Church, to help and support homosexual Catholics in the face of abuse and prejudice directed against them, produced this official Vatican decree back in the 1980s: 


"...It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law...What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well...The characteristic concern and good will exhibited by many clergy and religious in their pastoral care for homosexual persons is admirable, and, we hope, will not diminish. Such devoted ministers should have the confidence that they are faithfully following the will of the Lord by encouraging the homosexual person and by affirming that person's God-given dignity and worth...Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life..." 

*-*_* CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH; *_
_*LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE *_
_*OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS, 1986*_ 


However, it is _homosexual sex_ which is a very debated topic within my religion as a whole. 


Catholics are, for example, completely agreed on the fact that there is nothing immoral or wrong with being _homosexual_. Indeed it is the natural state, subjectively, for great numbers of people around the world. It is not a choice, but rather a sexual disposition innate to them as people, and is their _natural _way of expressing or manifesting themselves as sexual beings. One can only presume that God willed, that is intended, these people to experience attraction to the same sex. 


However the debate within Catholicism centres not around homosexuality, which is completely acceptable and indeed natural to great numbers of people, but rather the morality of _same-sex intercourse_. 


You see, in Catholicism, we are taught that _sex _must be open to life. 

There is a strict interpretation of this, a more flexible interpretation and a liberal one: 



1) Strict view - Every sexual act must be completely open to life, because this is how God naturally intended. This view means that there is no room for sex outside of a committed, marital relationship and no room for gay sex, which means that homosexual Catholics must not be sexually active with their partners. This means no contraception, or anything apart from Natural Family Planning. 


2) Moderate view - Every sexual _relationship _must be open to life but not every _sexual _act. This means that couples can use contraception and perhaps have a more open relationship, however it still does not permit gay couples to have sex with each other because no homosexual relationship can be, naturally speaking, open to life at all. This view judges sex by the _ability _of the couple to reproduce even if they choose not to on certain occassions. 


3) Liberal view - sex is, as Catholicism teaches, both procreative and unititative. The liberal view says that both need not be necessary in the same act but rather some sexual acts can be purely unitative (ie homosexual) and this means that homosexual sex is perfectly acceptable within Catholic theology. 

So our problems are not with homosexual people, as with other Christian denominations and religions, but rather with our view of when sex is appropriate. 

Love between homosexual persons can be real and committed, the problem though is should they express that love through sexual intercourse? 

The decree mentioned earlier took the strict/moderate view, and which in part reads: 


*"...The issue of homosexuality and the moral evaluation of homosexual acts have increasingly become a matter of public debate in Catholic circles...Naturally, an exhaustive treatment of this complex issue cannot be attempted here, but we will focus our reflection within the distinctive context of the Catholic moral perspective...the Catholic moral viewpoint is founded on human reason illumined by faith and is consciously motivated by the desire to do the will of God our Father. The Church is thus in a position to learn from scientific discovery...the Congregation took note of the distinction commonly drawn in Catholicism between the homosexual orientation and individual homosexual actions. These actions were described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality*...*The particular inclination of the homosexual person is thus not a sin...[However] to chose someone of the same sex for one's sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator's sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves...What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross...As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God's personal call to them, they will be able to [...] convert their lives more fully to his Way...An authentic pastoral programme will assist homosexual persons at all levels of the spiritual life: through the sacraments [...] through prayer, witness, counsel and individual care. In such a way, the entire Christian community can come to recognize its own call to assist its homosexual brothers and sisters...In a particular way, we would ask the Bishops to support, with the means at their disposal, the development of appropriate forms of pastoral care for homosexual persons. These would include the assistance of the psychological, sociological and medical sciences, in full accord with the teaching of the Church..."*

_- CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH; _
_LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE _
_OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS, 1986_ 


There are gay Catholic websites such as: http://queeringthechurch.com/ which endorse the liberal view and say that homosexual sex is fine. 

On the other hand there are gay Catholic websites that endorse the strict/moderate view, and these Gay Catholics are all active and proud homosexuals but not sexually active in their relationships: http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/gay-catholic-and-doing-fine.html

He calls himself, "Gay, Catholic and doing fine" but not sexual active. 

So you see there is diversity of opinion on this. There have been gay Popes and saints but none of them were sexually active gays, apart from Pope Leo X who before he became Pope had an affair with another Cardinal in 1514 but then chose to lead a life of chastity thereafter, never having sexual intercourse with men again. 

Saint Aelred of Rievaulx (1110 – 1167), seems to have been homosexual, but again not sexually active. Aelred himself speaks of losing his heart to one boy and then another during his school days. Aelred writes of his school days as a time when he thought of nothing but loving and being loved by men, and of losing his heart to one boy and then another. He was a man of strong passions, who spoke openly of the men for whom he had deeply romantic attachments. After the death of one monk whom he clearly loved with real gay love, he wrote:


_"...The only one who would not be astonished to see Aelred living without Simon would be someone who did not know how pleasant it was for us to spend our life on earth together; how great a joy it would have been for us to journey to heaven in each other’s company . . . .Weep, then, not because Simon has been taken up to heaven, but because Aelred has been left on earth, alone...." _


He furthermore wrote of his chaste love for this man: 


*"...He was the refuge of my spirit, the sweet solace of my griefs, whose heart of love received me when fatigued by labors, whose counsel refreshed me when plunged in sadness and grief... What more is there, then, that I can say? Was it not a foretaste of blessedness thus to love and thus to be loved?"*

_-- Saint Aelred, from his eulogy on the death of his homosexual lover, Simon _


Throughout the middle ages, not only did the open practice of homosexuality continue, but it flourished in the monasteries of the time. Many of the priests and abbots not only left us literature celebrating their gay loves, but some of the poetry they left us was beautiful and almost erotic but not sexual. Consider this poem from Marbod, Bishop of Rennes (d. 1123 C.E.) 


_The Unyielding Youth _
_Horace composed an ode about a certain boy __Whose face was so lovely he could easily have been a girl,_
_Whose hair fell in waves against his ivory neck,_
_Whose forehead was white as snow and his eyes black as pitch,_
_Whose soft cheeks were full of delicious sweetness_
_When they bloomed in the brightness of a blush of beauty,_
_His nose was perfect, his lips flame red, lovely his teeth--_
_An exterior formed in measure to match his mind. _


This bishop was, of course, far from alone in his chaste, non-sexual, same-sex attractions. We have literally thousands of poems from this period, many of them from other monastics, who celebrated their love for their gay loves. 

Among these monastics were St. Aelred and many others. Among these, the literature left us by St. Aelred offers the clearest and most detailed literature celebrating gay love in this period. There seems little doubt that he was gay by orientation and that he was also able to sustain chaste gay, loving relationships. 

In his book, “On Spiritual Friendship”, he is clear in extolling the value of same-sex love. He does so on the basis of personal experience, and describes the impact that several of these loves have had on him, and the desolation he has felt when a lover has died.
_“It is no small consolation in this life to have someone to whom you can be united in the intimate embrace of the most sacred love; in whom your spirit can rest; to whom you can pour out your soul; in whose delightful company, as in a sweet consoling song, you can take comfort in the midst of sadness; in whose most welcome, friendly bosom you can find peace in so many worldly setbacks; to whose loving heart you can open, as freely as you would to yourself, your innermost thoughts; through whose spiritual kisses – as by some medicine – you are cured of the sickness of care and worry; who weeps with you in sorrow, rejoices with you in joy, and wonders with you in doubt; whom you draw by the fetters of love into that inner room of your soul, so that though the body is absent, the spirit is there, and you can confer all alone, the two of you, in the sleep of peace away from the noise of the world, in the embrace of love, in the kiss of unity, with the Holy Spirit flowing over you; to whom you so join and unite yourself that you mix soul with soul, and two become one.”_​It is important to keep clearly in mind that although there is clear reference to the “embrace of love”, and to “kisses”, Aelred is writing about spiritual, chaste, non-sexual love between two men, and that he stresses the spiritual riches it brings, _“with the Holy Spirit flowing over you_.” The love is intimate, yes, touchy-feely, caressing, affectionate but never do they engage in anal sex. 

Blessed Seraphim Rose had many sexual relationships with men but then stopped being sexually active when he converted to Christianity. He remained a non-sexually active homosexual for the rest of his life. 

Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality in the Gospels, although it is mentioned in the Letters of Saint Paul and in other documents of Sacred Tradition. Jesus is one of the few religious leaders, I believe along with the Gurus, that never regard homosexuality as important enough to specifically mention either in a condemnatory way or in approval. He was utterly silent on the issue. 

Currently the Catholic Church hierarchy endorses the strict/moderate view ie homosexuality is perfectly acceptable, all forms of homophobia are prohibited however gay Catholics must try not to have sex and if they do must try and limit their sex life to a culpable level. 

What do you all think? kaurhug


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## Archived_member15 (May 19, 2012)

Just to note that Catholicism is not against civil partnerships, and in England the Catholic Church presides over gay masses in Soho. 

Arcbishop Vincent Nicholas of England said in an interview: 


"...We would want to emphasise that civil partnerships actually provide a structure in which people of the same sex who want a lifelong relationship [and] a lifelong partnership can find their place and protection and legal provision… The Church holds great store by the value of commitment in relationships and undertakings that people give..."

- Archbishop Vincent Nichols 


We also appreciate that Gays can have commited relationships, and admire monogamist homosexuals. Questioned on the Church’s attitude to homosexuals, Cardinal Schonborn said in 2010: 



“...People should give more consideration to the quality of homosexual relationships. A stable relationship is certainly better than if someone chooses to be promiscuous. The primary thing to consider should not be sin, but people’s striving to live according to the commandments. Instead of a morality based on duty, we should work towards a morality based on happiness..." 

- Cardinal Schonborn


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## Luckysingh (May 19, 2012)

I can't really comment too much here. In general I always don't say anything too positive or negative, in terms of sikhism, I don't think it really matters at all.
A gay is no less a sikh than me or any other. I don't become a better sikh just because I'm not gay.
This issue is not needed to define sikhism to any degree. I'm not sure if there has ever been a demand to accept gay sikh marriages or similar. But if two gays are going to dedicate their lives and stay with each other, then I don't think there is anything wrong with marriage!!
I make it sound pretty easy, but of course it's much more complex. All issues that involve gays are always considered obstacles.
Truth is at the end of the day if my son grows up and tells me he is gay, then I'm naturally not going to be too pleased because the issue will come across as an obstacle and I would have to rethink many ideas. Well I'm not going to be congratulating him and be overjoyed at the news, am I ?? I would have to make some changes and convince my self to accept, it would still be an obstacle and something that I can't just say ' OK then, your gay, never mind'
In all honesty, I wouldn't be too happy at all.
But, I can never say that he is unnaceptable as a sikh or no good. It would be a personal matter to deal with and nothing to do with sikhi unless he wants anand karaj with another gay!!

The sad thing of today is that many things I enjoyed as a kid seem to be classed as gay nowadays. I mean any new famous male on the scene and straight away the gay questions come up. 
As a kid I grew up with Starsky & Hutch, Dukes of hazzard, Batman & Robin, CHips and many more that  people question and label as gay nowadays. I mean, even the classic 'sholay' could be labelled as a gay story today. This I find sad.


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## Harry Haller (May 20, 2012)

hey, you mean sholay was not a gay story



Luckyji,

a question, what would concern you more, your son becoming gay, or becoming an atheist?

I have to say, for myself, although I have no kids, if I ever did, I really could not care less about their sexual orientation as long as they were happy.


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## Luckysingh (May 20, 2012)

Well the point is that we make plans for the future, have images and ideas of what your kids will be or can be. But, no one imagines their kids to turn out gay, I don't think. 
This is what I mean by it being an obstacle. You have to deal with it at the time, as it's not something you plan for.

Many people say that they couldn't care less, but my point is that I know deep down I would care and wouldn't be delighted with joy so to say. It's not something that you look forward to. 
Most of us don't like to associate with these issues and would rather avoid trying to understand.

In terms of your question about being gay or atheist. 
Well, my answer would be that they BOTH would concern me to the same degree.
I would have to deal with them both in different but similar manners.


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## Harry Haller (May 20, 2012)

Luckyji

Waheguru clearly could not care less about being gay, why should we?

However I respect your honesty, and having no kids myself, accept that my thoughts are ideological, whereas yours are realistic.


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## Luckysingh (May 20, 2012)

I used to find it quite amusing when I worked in UK, I used to meet huge numbers of ordinary people. 
Whenever the topic about gays surfaced, most would comment that it makes no difference to them if someone is gay or it doesn't bother them etc...
Then, I would always question ' what if your kid grows up and tells you the news??? '
Immediately, most people would back off and comment ' well, that's different.'..etc.etc..

In reality no one planned and always thought that the 'gay' is always someone else or some one elses family problem. But they never liked to think of it as occuring in their own immediate family.

The truth is that most parents would react like me. They don't ever think or wish that there own child would turn out gay.

My opinion is actually what goes with the majority in my experience.


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## Harry Haller (May 20, 2012)

I beg to differ, my wife does have a child, my stepson, and she really could not care less, she is more concerned that he is happy, healthy and productive.

I do think, however, that being gay does not really express very well homosexuality. 

The other day, I was reading this thread with another shopkeeper, who happens to be gay. A customer walked in, I stated that we were reading an Islamic piece on homosexuality, he replied, that 'all those gays and their mincing, how funny', now my friend is built like a marine, and extremely 'manly'. I happen to like redheads, he happens to like hairy backs, other than that , we are both men, he made his excuses and left, and the customer looked at me and said, 'he was gay wasn't he', and I replied 'yup' and grinned. Not all gay people act like gay people, it is a sexual preference, nothing more, I do not expect to get pilloried because of my sexual fetishes, but if they were known, maybe I would be subject to similar. In a world where so much bad can happen, it seems unfair to lump the sexuality of a child as a tragedy waiting to happen, real tragedies are hard to deal with, the sexuality of a person, in my mind, is irrelevant. 

However, and this I believe is the crux of the problem, I find anyone, of any sexuality, who flaunts it, and bases their entire personality on it, allows it to define themselves, wrong, whether gay or straight. 

The problem as always is the fear of other peoples attitudes in the Indian community

Goodness Gracious Me Gay Son Season 1 | by AnimeSaw      - YouTube


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## simranbir (May 20, 2012)

* everything that is on this earth, god created. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god make it?*

god created to check our control as he created maya to divert path towaards him. i think so

but this is to stop. shouldn't be practiced


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## Archived_member15 (May 20, 2012)

harry haller said:


> However, and this I believe is the crux of the problem, I find anyone, of any sexuality, who flaunts it, and bases their entire personality on it, allows it to define themselves, wrong, whether gay or straight.


 
:sippingcoffeemunda:

My dear brother Harry Haller ji peacesign

Yes that is what my Church teaches also, I agree: 


"...From this multi-faceted approach there are numerous advantages to be gained, not the least of which is the realization that a homosexual person, as every human being, deeply needs to be nourished at many different levels simultaneously. _The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation_...Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life..." 

- *- CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH; *
_*LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE *_
_*OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS, 1986*_


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## Randip Singh (May 20, 2012)

HOMOPHOBES are the ones who need help, not Homosexuals!!!:sippingcoffee:


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## Satyaban (Apr 1, 2013)

ninaryan said:


> God did not created homosexuality. God created woman to be helpmate of Man.. God did not created another man to be with man. Homosexuality is a SIN and leads to God Judgement. Can be thrown in the lake of fire which is Hell


 
Considering that God created and is the essence of all you are saying that The Creator made a mistake. I should remind you that all is God's creation and thus divine, all is as it must be perfect in its state.

Your last sentence sounds like it came from Christian, Zoroastrian, or Islamic scripture. I believe there is much truth in each scripture but not that.

Peace


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## esieffe (Sep 23, 2013)

Sat-sri-akal!

We see much more of this in America than in most places I am sure, so I have had the opportunity to know a few gay people, as they are known here in the states.  There is one couple in my neighborhood who has been together for 15 years.  I am told they do not have sex outside of their relationship [though I never asked the question!]

My feelings about this issue is that it may be a karmic condition.  We go through life after life going through different experiences to become well rounded and pure as soul.  It is not up to me to judge if this is "offensive" to God or not.  I will say that anyone who hops from bed to bed is equal in the trap or obsession of lust regardless of who they are jumping in with!

A gay man once told me that no sane person would choose to be gay.  Who would choose to expose themselves to such danger and hostility? In Iran, homosexuals are hung from the nearest tree.

 I think a Sikh is a Sikh.  I don't see a person's sexual orientation even entering the equation.  I follow Sikhism because we protect the defenseless, feed the hungry!  We are the heros of this Earth not the haters or executioners.  I feel no hostility for them nor do I feel it for those who dislike them.  It is just another attachment trap, a political or social issue to muddy the waters in the river to God.  

I must admit, I did get the chills when I saw two people holding hands together once in a big city, but at the same time, after a second look, they did seem devoted to each other.  I do wish people would get over this issue, so much talk of it in America.  But I suppose this is society's way of working things out.:animatedkhanda1:


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## AngloSikhPeace (Sep 24, 2013)

BasicsOfSikhi had a video about this controversial topic. In it, they said that homosexuals are born that way, and should not be discriminated against because of how their minds were made. They said that it is perfectly okay for a homosexual to also be a Sikh and try to unite with Guruji. However, they also said that the Sikh Rehat only allows marriage between a man and a woman, and therefore homosexual Sikhs should remain celibate.


I agree with them, but have some questions. 

1. Why should homosexual Sikhs remain celibate? Homosexuals can still feel love for a woman even if they don't feel kaam for them, and it is well-known that at least some homosexual men can have relationships with and please the opposite sex. Majority of so-called homosexuals are likely bisexual, especially if you include the homosexual women in that.
There are also people with very little or even no sexual energy, or people born with no sexual orientation. Should they not get married either, even if they want to feel the piyare which come from Guruji?

2. Despite these teachings homosexuals are still discriminated against, even by Sikhs. It would be a very difficult task to get rid of this prejudice, especially in the minds of people who view gays as an abomination. Who would stand up for them?

3. Why has this become such a big debate? There have always been people who were attracted to the same gender, but Gurbani doesn't mention it. The notion of a specific 'homosexual' identity is a new one, in the past many people who were married to women would have affairs with other men. Just look up Roman and Greek history and you will see how common it was. There's new research to suggest that even in 19th century England there was no particular 'homosexual' category, but acts we would think of today as 'gay' were common.
It seems to me that Sikhs (and humans generally) have always tolerated people with homosexual urges, but that the acts associated with them were viewed as sinful and adulterous. But then came the 'race sciences' and eugenic systems of the late 19th and early 20th centuries which categorised people with homosexual feelings into a different, subhuman group. And then in the 20th century the family layouts changed in favour of the nuclear family, making homosexual behaviour even more taboo than ordinary adultery. Nowadays the sexual revolution has blown the 1950s family apart, but the old medicalised categorisation of people has stayed, creating the idea that some people are identified solely by homosexual feelings.


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## gurtej khubbar (Sep 24, 2013)

Homosexuality is not wrong, lust is. It's scientifically proven for god sake, we should not even ask if it's wrong.
People need to get their head out of the sand. It even prevails in other mammals and species.


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## ExploringSikhi (Sep 24, 2013)

I am very surprised by some of the comments in this thread, especially the one where the basicsofsikhi guy said homosexuals should remain celebate for their entire lives. I thought he was an Oxford graduate, very disappointing to hear something like that come out of his mouth, especially considering the vast number of people who are influenced by his videos.

The fact that we have gotten to 53 pages talking about whether homosexuality is acceptable in Sikhi is bittersweet. On the one hand, it is great to see religious people being able to talk about such a controversial topic in such a respectful and civil manner. You may not all agree with each other, but at least you value the other person's opinion and do not try to shut them down or resort to name-calling and throwing accusations. Other religions could learn from your example.

On the other hand, at least in my opinion, this discussion should have ended on the first page. It is difficult for me to get my head around why any Sikh would have any interest in the sexual orientation of someone else. If it was such a horrible thing, you'd think it would be mentioned at least once in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but it isn't even alluded to. It can only mean that the Gurus did not care whether someone was homosexual or heterosexual, I'm sure they believed that it is your actions, not your orientation, that defines you as a person. The 5 thieves are mentioned over and over again because they are the main obstacles in a human's path to living a truthful life. Homosexuality was not mentioned for the same reason the Gurus did not include which color t-shirt was the "best" or most "righteous" to wear- the color of your shirt, or the object of your attraction (be it male or female), has no bearing on your value as a human being.

Then there are some people who agree that homosexuals do not deserve hate, but there should be different rules for them, they shouldn't be afforded the same rights (ex: marriage) as heterosexual Sikhs. This reminds me of one of the first stories I heard pertaining to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Khalsa army was in battle with the Moghuals, and Bhai Kanhaiya Ji was tasked with providing water for the injured Sikh soldiers. When he got on the battlefield, his co-religionists saw him giving water to the Muslim soldiers as well, and reported their findings to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who summoned Bhai Khanaiya. Bhai Khanaiyas reply to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was that on the battlefield, he did not see Sikhs and Muslims, he did not see Khalsa or Mughal, he only saw human beings, each of which had that same light of Waheguru inside of them. It did not matter what side they were on or what their religious beliefs were, everyone got water because every life is precious and on the inside, we are all the same. And of course you know what happens next, Guru Gobind Singh Ji hugged Bhai Khanaiya and told the Khalsa that this is what a true Sikh looks and sounds like.

What would Guru Gobind Singh Ji say to the Sikhs today? His entire family was murdered by Muslims, yet he sought no revenge and did not hurt a single innocent person, no matter what their religion was. His army was in battle, and he approved the serving of water to the enemy soldiers. On Vaisakhi 1699, he took Amrit from the hands of the "lower caste" (who at the time were in roughly the same position as homosexuals are today). 

Do you think this same Guru Gobind Singh Ji would be proud that his Sikhs are refusing Anand Karaj for 2 individuals who accept Guru Granth Sahib as their eternal Guru and wish to live a Gurmat lifestyle, just because of the way they were born? Would he say "well, at least they're getting treated better than they do in other religion", or would he be disgusted that Sikhs, who are supposed to be the "dust of the feet of all", not distinguish between friend or enemy, see that same light of Waheguru in all, are today trying to impose their own beliefs onto a group of people who cannot change who they are?

I am a lurker on a few other Sikh forums and just today saw a thread on one of them about whether it was permissible for an Amritdhari to share food with someone who has not taken Amrit. Even after Guru Nanak Dev Ji preferred to share food with the poor and weak than the rich and strong. It hurts me, even as an outsider, to have to read stuff like this, because I feel like the Gurus would be rolling over in their graves if they knew.

Sorry if I offended anyone, and I know not all Sikhs share the same views, this is just my opinion.


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## harmanpreet singh (Oct 5, 2017)

ExploringSikhi said:


> Sorry if I offended anyone, and I know not all Sikhs share the same views, this is just my opinion.




i feel majority Sikhs share your views , so no offense caused .


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