# Fasting Is Not For Khalsas



## Amarpal (Dec 1, 2004)

Dear Khalsa Ji,



The English word ‘Fasting’ means not eating or not drinking or both. This word indicates what many people in India do when they say they are having Upavaas - they do not eat; they do not drink. 



What my learning has taught me is different from what is actually the practice here. In my understanding not eating and not drinking is not Upavaas. To me, Upavaas has nothing to do with such abstentions. The basis of my having this view, I elaborate below.



We study the word Upavaas. It is made up from two words - Upa and vaas i.e. Upa+vaas. Upa means near and vaas means staying. Taken together it means staying near. Since Upavaas is directed towards God, it means staying near God. In other words, depending on the level of individual’s spiritual evolution, this staying near can be any thing from doing prayers at the feet of the deity up to going into Samadhi.



When the individual goes into Samadhi, the senses loose all hold over the individual. The individual in Samadhi does not feel the pangs of hunger or thirst; the person in Samadhi does not ask for food or drinks. What people around this evolved person can perceive is only what their senses tell them i.e. this evolved individual doing her or his Upavaas (mentally being with the God in Samadhi) has not eaten or imbibed any drink. These people cannot know what is happening deep inside the individual who has gone in Samadhi to perform her or his Upavaas. As one understands so one interprets; these people concluded that performing Upavaas means not eating and not drinking i.e. fasting.



The people around this evolved person, probably started imitating her or him based on what they understood. They only knew that Muni Ji do not eat and drink while performing Upavaas. These common individuals started having their Upavaas by denying themselves any nourishment during the period of Upavaas. This way, what was the natural consequence (not feeling hungry so not eating and not feeling thirsty so not drinking) of Upavaas with evolved individuals, became the basic instrument of Upavaas for the commoners. This way Upavaas became synonymous with fasting and the real meaning was lost in the crowd of the commoners.



Based on this rational, I hold the view that Fasting is not Upavaas; Upavaas means mentally being with the God. Fasting has nothing to do with Upavaas.



In Hindi there is another word for Fasting and that is Annshann; it is not Upavaas.



I hold the opinion that Fasting is injurious to health of the individual. If this individual happens to be a lady, it is injurious for those whom she may bring into this world.

Unlike others groups, we in Khalsa Panth have no requirement from Sikhi to undertake fasting. Not all Khalsas have yet given up the baggage of their ancient past, some of us continue to think fasting to be and instrument of spirituality. Which, in my opinion, is not in accordance with Sikhi. 


Our systems of the body have evolved for use in moderation. The heart takes rest between its two beats so is the case with respiratory system; they keep working through out the life of the individual. This is the case with digestive system also. Digestive system has evolved for periodic intakes of nourishment. Elements of the digestive system sequentially rest between two meals as the food taken in moves from one portion to the other within the system. Taking nourishment in moderation to satisfy hunger is all that we humans are expected to do. We do not have to organise special rest sessions for digestive system. To me the suggestion that Fasting is good to give rest to digestive system is only good for those who live to eat and eat continuously. This is to force them to eat less. In other words, in my opinion fasting has nothing to do with spirituality or religiosity.



No one ever suggests giving rest to respiratory system or circulatory system; why this special consideration of giving rests to digestive system alone? In my opinion, the suggestion that fasting and the consequent rest to the digestive system are only a way to justify this practice. Eating based on the need of the body i.e. in moderation is all that we have to do.



Living bodies are the abode of ‘The Sat’; the needs of the body should be respected. Saiyam, and not abstention is the guiding word to meet the requirements of the body.



Saiyam is in between abstention and indulgence; it is the middle path; the best path that of moderation.



With this I close.



With love and respect for all.



Amarpal


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## drkhalsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Dear Amarpal ji

Thanks for your views and I think it will help all of us in clearing our doubts and confusion .


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 7, 2009)

Wahegur Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

Our Guru never compared Sikhism with any religion...he just conveyed what he want to say....so we follow one ...not wander around different Devtaas, Dhongi's....stick to One and only Supreme...

God gave us stomach to eat...eyes to see..mouth to speak... ears to listen...hands to work...how can it possible that he will tell us to go against it....but he also mentioned ..be in limits....keeping your self hungry may be good for health ...or to detoxify you...but I don't believe that keeping your self hungry will compel GOD to come to you....this is not a way to find a god........I only believe my GURU....only one.....


Chardi Kala............


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> *The people around this evolved person, probably started imitating her or him based on what they understood.
> *No evidence to support anything you have said. The Muslims hold that fasting is a command from God.
> 
> يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الصِّيَامُ كَمَا كُتِبَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ (2:183)
> ...




From what I have observed is that it teaches people to gorge and eat like greedy people before day break, and gorge and eat like greedy people after sun set.

Absolutely means nothing in Sikhi:

Page 216

ਗਉੜੀ  ਮਾਲਾ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
 गउड़ी माला महला ५ ॥ 
 Ga▫oṛī mālā mėhlā 5. 
 Gauree Maalaa, Fifth Mehl: 

 ਹਰਿ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਅਵਰ  ਕ੍ਰਿਆ  ਬਿਰਥੇ  ॥ 
 हरि बिनु अवर क्रिआ बिरथे ॥ 
 Har bin avar kir▫ā birthe. 
 Without the Lord, other actions are useless. 

 ਜਪ  ਤਪ  ਸੰਜਮ  ਕਰਮ  ਕਮਾਣੇ  ਇਹਿ  ਓਰੈ  ਮੂਸੇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 जप तप संजम करम कमाणे इहि ओरै मूसे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
 Jap ṯap sanjam karam kamāṇe ihi orai mūse. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
 Meditative chants, intense deep meditation, austere self-discipline and rituals - these are plundered in this world. ||1||Pause|| 

 *ਬਰਤ  ਨੇਮ  ਸੰਜਮ  ਮਹਿ  ਰਹਤਾ  ਤਿਨ  ਕਾ  ਆਢੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਇਆ  ॥
बरत नेम संजम महि रहता तिन का आढु न पाइआ ॥
Baraṯ nem sanjam mėh rahṯā ṯin kā ādẖ na pā▫i▫ā.
Fasting, daily rituals, and austere self-discipline - those who keep the practice of these, are rewarded with less than a shell.* 

 ਆਗੈ  ਚਲਣੁ  ਅਉਰੁ  ਹੈ  ਭਾਈ  ਊਂਹਾ  ਕਾਮਿ  ਨ  ਆਇਆ  ॥੧॥ 
 आगै चलणु अउरु है भाई ऊंहा कामि न आइआ ॥१॥ 
 Āgai cẖalaṇ a▫or hai bẖā▫ī ūŉhā kām na ā▫i▫ā. ||1|| 
 Hereafter, the way is different, O Siblings of Destiny. There, these things are of no use at all. ||1|| 

 ਤੀਰਥਿ  ਨਾਇ  ਅਰੁ  ਧਰਨੀ  ਭ੍ਰਮਤਾ  ਆਗੈ  ਠਉਰ  ਨ  ਪਾਵੈ  ॥ 
 तीरथि नाइ अरु धरनी भ्रमता आगै ठउर न पावै ॥ 
 Ŧirath nā▫e ar ḏẖarnī bẖarmaṯā āgai ṯẖa▫ur na pāvai. 
 Those who bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and wander over the earth, find no place of rest hereafter. 

 ਊਹਾ  ਕਾਮਿ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ਇਹ  ਬਿਧਿ  ਓਹੁ  ਲੋਗਨ  ਹੀ  ਪਤੀਆਵੈ  ॥੨॥ 
 ऊहा कामि न आवै इह बिधि ओहु लोगन ही पतीआवै ॥२॥ 
 Ūhā kām na āvai ih biḏẖ oh logan hī paṯī▫āvai. ||2|| 
 There, these are of no use at all. By these things, they only please other people. ||2|| 

 ਚਤੁਰ  ਬੇਦ  ਮੁਖ  ਬਚਨੀ  ਉਚਰੈ  ਆਗੈ  ਮਹਲੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 चतुर बेद मुख बचनी उचरै आगै महलु न पाईऐ ॥ 
 Cẖaṯur beḏ mukẖ bacẖnī ucẖrai āgai mahal na pā▫ī▫ai. 
 Reciting the four Vedas from memory, they do not obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence hereafter. 

 ਬੂਝੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਏਕੁ  ਸੁਧਾਖਰੁ  ਓਹੁ  ਸਗਲੀ  ਝਾਖ  ਝਖਾਈਐ  ॥੩॥ 
 बूझै नाही एकु सुधाखरु ओहु सगली झाख झखाईऐ ॥३॥ 
 Būjẖai nāhī ek suḏẖākẖar oh saglī jẖākẖ jẖakẖā▫ī▫ai. ||3|| 
 Those who do not understand the One Pure Word, utter total nonsense. ||3|| 

 ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਕਹਤੋ  ਇਹੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰਾ  ਜਿ  ਕਮਾਵੈ  ਸੁ  ਪਾਰ  ਗਰਾਮੀ  ॥ 
 नानकु कहतो इहु बीचारा जि कमावै सु पार गरामी ॥ 
 Nānak kahṯo ih bīcẖārā jė kamāvai so pār garāmī. 
 Nanak voices this opinion: those who practice it, swim across. 

 ਗੁਰੁ  ਸੇਵਹੁ  ਅਰੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਧਿਆਵਹੁ  ਤਿਆਗਹੁ  ਮਨਹੁ  ਗੁਮਾਨੀ  ॥੪॥੬॥੧੬੪॥ 
 गुरु सेवहु अरु नामु धिआवहु तिआगहु मनहु गुमानी ॥४॥६॥१६४॥ 
 Gur sevhu ar nām ḏẖi▫āvahu ṯi▫āgahu manhu gumānī. ||4||6||164|| 
 Serve the Guru, and meditate on the Naam; renounce the egotistical pride from your mind. ||4||6||164|| 


and to the Muslims Guru Nanak said;


Page 140

ਸਲੋਕੁ  ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ 
 सलोकु मः १ ॥ 
 Salok mėhlā 1. 
 Shalok, First Mehl: 

 ਮਿਹਰ  ਮਸੀਤਿ  ਸਿਦਕੁ  ਮੁਸਲਾ  ਹਕੁ  ਹਲਾਲੁ  ਕੁਰਾਣੁ  ॥ 
 मिहर मसीति सिदकु मुसला हकु हलालु कुराणु ॥ 
 Mihar masīṯ siḏak muslā hak halāl kurāṇ. 
 Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran. 

 ਸਰਮ  ਸੁੰਨਤਿ  ਸੀਲੁ  ਰੋਜਾ  ਹੋਹੁ  ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ  ॥ 
 सरम सुंनति सीलु रोजा होहु मुसलमाणु ॥ 
 Saram sunaṯ sīl rojā hohu musalmāṇ. 
 Make modesty your circumcision,* and good conduct your fast*. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim. 

 ਕਰਣੀ  ਕਾਬਾ  ਸਚੁ  ਪੀਰੁ  ਕਲਮਾ  ਕਰਮ  ਨਿਵਾਜ  ॥ 
 करणी काबा सचु पीरु कलमा करम निवाज ॥ 
 Karṇī kābā sacẖ pīr kalmā karam nivāj. 
 Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. 

 ਤਸਬੀ  ਸਾ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵਸੀ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਰਖੈ  ਲਾਜ  ॥੧॥ 
 तसबी सा तिसु भावसी नानक रखै लाज ॥१॥ 
 Ŧasbī sā ṯis bẖāvsī Nānak rakẖai lāj. ||1|| 
 Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. ||1||


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> *   From what I have observed is that it teaches people to gorge and eat like greedy people before day break, and gorge and eat like greedy people after sun set.
> 
> *Thats not a very pleasant way to speak of people who fast. Even if they dont do it correctly, what about those who do? what benefits do they experience?



It is my observation from Muslims I lived with at University.




benjamin_chaudry said:


> Do you have any solid educative information on why fasting is bad? from reading the above I'd say it would be beneficial for anyone seeking God, including the Khalsas, wouldn't you agree?




Without this:

ਸਰਮ  ਸੁੰਨਤਿ  ਸੀਲੁ  ਰੋਜਾ  ਹੋਹੁ  ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ  ॥ 
 सरम सुंनति सीलु रोजा होहु मुसलमाणु ॥ 
 Saram sunaṯ sīl rojā hohu musalmāṇ. 
 Make modesty your circumcision,* and good conduct your fast*. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim. 


There is no benefit to fasting.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

a SIKH..is advised to do all things in Moderation ALL the time..Eat little, sleep little, ....LOVE the Creator by LOVING HIS CREATION...with dya compassion for ALL, dharam..religiousness of fairness and good conduct towards ALL...etc etc...do  what The Creator does...try and be like him..follow his actions...and be forever His slave and humble servant at all times..

1. IN Malaysia..a muslim majority nation we have Mulsims who dont fast get arrested..jailed and fined..eateries have to be closed by order..and Muslims have to be kept out of them by the Police..
Economically speaking..Mulsims spend far more on FOOD during ramadhaan..than normal ?? WHY..because they gorge twice a day and eat double the normal amounts...entire ramadhaan all talk is about FOOD..Food stalls specially set up begin operating at least four hours BEFORE Break...people wake up at 2 am to cook the sahur meal...and gorge just before fasting begins..and many sleep the whole day and have to be "specially treated" while working..lethargically is normal...fasting...is the answer when we ask why so slow ?? Very FEW really Fast as instructed by the Koran...becasue fasting is also abstaining from bad thoughts, deeds, sex, smoking, taking bribes, corruption etc etc.
IMHO..very few adherents of any religion reallya nd truly know the teachings..Muslims are no exception..they follow just by others example not from real desire...IF there was really no FEAR of any police action..i beleive muslims would be eating liek no tomorrow..just like the Muslims one sees buying LOTTERY TICKETS and GAMBLING right under the Huge Notices saying..HARAM FOR MUSLIMS..or Muslims hugging Boars in a Chinese Temple to strike a Lottery (when even the word pork/boar/pig etc is highly offensive to Mulsims..there are pelnty of them who go HUG a Boar to bring them good luck..imho money  and greed are in all men...


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 8, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *benjamin_chaudry*
> _* From what I have observed is that it teaches people to gorge and eat like greedy people before day break, and gorge and eat like greedy people after sun set.
> 
> *Thats not a very pleasant way to speak of people who fast. Even if they dont do it correctly, what about those who do? what benefits do they experience?_


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

First of all Mr. Benjamin...a little advice for you...don't compare religions here... our Guru Ji never compared any thing...he conveyed what he want to say....he countered if somebody asked him "why you don't do this".....

Now for your reply........


I stayed with muslims...one from Bangladesh and other from Pakistan for around 1 1/2 year...I was with them for two Ramdans....This is right...they used to eat whole night...even they informed me that in their country..people go to stall and stay there ...starring at food...waiting for Namaz to get over and they can eat...they don't even go to Namaz...well whole night they use slang language talking to each other...then whole night cook meat...such a bad food...even you can't bear the smell...and for whole day they sleep so that they should not feel hungry and thirsty.... what is this..?.is this the way to catch hold of God......then there would be so many BRAHM GYANIs in Muslims and Hindus.....

Same way is with fasting in Hindus...for whole day they eat fruits..drink juices...whole day they think of collecting good food so that they can have in evening... whole day they have food in mind...and no God...then at last..they end up eating much more than in a normal routine... they eat a food of more than one person...so they are responsible for creating scarcity of food for other people......

Fasting it to control... it doesn't mean that if anybody wants to quit smoking..he will smoke whole night and not smoke in a day.... 

In Sikhism its said that you just don't have to control only one month ..but to keep control on yourself..your feelings for whole of life...its not like keeping ramdan...not saying bad ...not hurting. anybody...but..killing animals... then for rest of 11 months eating all flesh ..killing people .... 

If anybody will say that I have control on my desire of sex...by sitting alone in on room for 2 months...not seeing a lady ..its not proved......actual test is having control being with them....not like Dhongi Saadhus who doesn't marry and have sexual rackets at their places..........

Its followed in Muslims also....

God made this world...we have to be in this world but without letting it affect our love towards god..... In Sikhism it not said to kill you desires to find a God... like in Hinudism and Islam....but to have control on them rather than those controlling you.... sitting in an Jungle or going to Himalayas will not take you to God...fight here in this world....and find him...he is in everything....

" The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of their dogmas from other great theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known have not left a line of their own composition, and we only know what they taught through tradition or secondhand information.  We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writing of Plato and Xenophan. Buddha has left no written memorials of his teaching. Kungfuzu, known to Europeans as Confucius left no documents in which he detailed the principles of this moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or complied by his adherents and followers. But the composition of the Sikh Gurus are preserved, and we know at first hand what they taught. They employed the vehicle of verse, which is generally unalterable by copyists, and we even become in time familiar with their different styles. No spurious compositions or extraneous dogmas can, therefore, be represented as theirs.....as we shall see hereafter, it would be difficult to pint to a religion of greater originality of to a more comprehensive ethical system."....Max Arthur Macualiffe, British Historian.


Even Sri Krishan has not left anything in writings...Geeta is a description of 18 days of battle between Kauravas and Pandavas.....


Chardi Kala......


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> First of all Mr. Benjamin...a little advice for you...don't compare religions here... our Guru Ji never compared any thing...he conveyed what he want to say....he countered if somebody asked him "why you don't do this".....
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comments but lets get one thing straight, in Sikhi there is no restriction on meat. We have Amritdhari Jhatka eating Sikhs. I have met many. We also have Amritdhari vegetarian too. Our own REhat Maryada allows non-Kuttha meat.

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

Our Guru's main comment is about the futility of fasting and then doing bad things throughout. Our Guru's would, and did have a problem with ritual sacrifice, no doubt, because they stated that God did not need this.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 8, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Thanks for your comments but lets get one thing straight, in Sikhi there is no restriction on meat. We have Amritdhari Jhatka eating Sikhs. I have met many. We also have Amritdhari vegetarian too. Our own REhat Maryada allows non-Kuttha meat.
> 
> Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India
> 
> Our Guru's main comment is about the futility of fasting and then doing bad things throughout. Our Guru's would, and did have a problem with ritual sacrifice, no doubt, because they stated that God did not need this.




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...

it says : [SIZE=-1]Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered                    the Muslim way;

I request you not to change the words...it not written as [/SIZE]


> [SIZE=-1]*"*[/SIZE]ur own REhat Maryada allows non-Kuttha meat.*"*


I believe in Gurbani...there are many places where Gurbani says about flesh and meat... I don't believe in killing just for taste...sorry... 

I disagree with your opinion here...

Chardi Kala......


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## Randip Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...
> 
> it says : [SIZE=-1]Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered                    the Muslim way;
> 
> ...



If you do not believe in killing for taste then do not kill sugarcane for your taste buds:

page 142

ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ 
 मः १ ॥ 
 Mėhlā 1. 
 First Mehl: 

 ਵੇਖੁ  ਜਿ  ਮਿਠਾ  ਕਟਿਆ  ਕਟਿ  ਕੁਟਿ  ਬਧਾ  ਪਾਇ  ॥ 
 वेखु जि मिठा कटिआ कटि कुटि बधा पाइ ॥ 
 vekẖ jė miṯẖā kati▫ā kat kut baḏẖā pā▫e. 
 Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles, 

ਖੁੰਢਾ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਰਖਿ  ਕੈ  ਦੇਨਿ  ਸੁ  ਮਲ  ਸਜਾਇ  ॥ 
 खुंढा अंदरि रखि कै देनि सु मल सजाइ ॥ 
 Kẖundẖā anḏar rakẖ kai ḏen so mal sajā▫e. 
 and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed. 

 ਰਸੁ  ਕਸੁ  ਟਟਰਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਤਪੈ  ਤੈ  ਵਿਲਲਾਇ  ॥ 
 रसु कसु टटरि पाईऐ तपै तै विललाइ ॥ 
 Ras kas tatar pā▫ī▫ai ṯapai ṯai villā▫e. 
 *What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.* 

 ਭੀ  ਸੋ  ਫੋਗੁ  ਸਮਾਲੀਐ  ਦਿਚੈ  ਅਗਿ  ਜਾਲਾਇ  ॥ 
 भी सो फोगु समालीऐ दिचै अगि जालाइ ॥ 
 Bẖī so fog samālī▫ai ḏicẖai ag jālā▫e. 
 And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below. 

 ਨਾਨਕ  ਮਿਠੈ  ਪਤਰੀਐ  ਵੇਖਹੁ  ਲੋਕਾ  ਆਇ  ॥੨॥ 
 नानक मिठै पतरीऐ वेखहु लोका आइ ॥२॥ 
 Nānak miṯẖai paṯrī▫ai vekẖhu lokā ā▫e. ||2|| 
 Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2|| 

*even a grain of corn has life:*

Page 472

ਸਲੋਕੁ  ਮਃ  ੧  ॥ 
 सलोकु मः १ ॥ 
 Salok mėhlā 1. 
 Shalok, First Mehl: 

 ਜੇ  ਕਰਿ  ਸੂਤਕੁ  ਮੰਨੀਐ  ਸਭ  ਤੈ  ਸੂਤਕੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
 जे करि सूतकु मंनीऐ सभ तै सूतकु होइ ॥ 
 Je kar sūṯak mannī▫ai sabẖ ṯai sūṯak ho▫e. 
 If one accepts the concept of impurity, then there is impurity everywhere. 

 ਗੋਹੇ  ਅਤੈ  ਲਕੜੀ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਕੀੜਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
 गोहे अतै लकड़ी अंदरि कीड़ा होइ ॥ 
 Gohe aṯai lakṛī anḏar kīṛā ho▫e. 
 In cow-dung and wood there are worms. 

 ਜੇਤੇ  ਦਾਣੇ  ਅੰਨ  ਕੇ  ਜੀਆ  ਬਾਝੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
 जेते दाणे अंन के जीआ बाझु न कोइ ॥ 
 Jeṯe ḏāṇe ann ke jī▫ā bājẖ na ko▫e. 
 *As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life.* 

 ਪਹਿਲਾ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਜੀਉ  ਹੈ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਹਰਿਆ  ਸਭੁ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
 पहिला पाणी जीउ है जितु हरिआ सभु कोइ ॥ 
 Pahilā pāṇī jī▫o hai jiṯ hari▫ā sabẖ ko▫e. 
 First, there is life in the water, by which everything else is made green. 

 ਸੂਤਕੁ  ਕਿਉ  ਕਰਿ  ਰਖੀਐ  ਸੂਤਕੁ  ਪਵੈ  ਰਸੋਇ  ॥ 
 सूतकु किउ करि रखीऐ सूतकु पवै रसोइ ॥ 
 Sūṯak ki▫o kar rakẖī▫ai sūṯak pavai raso▫e. 
 How can it be protected from impurity? It touches our own kitchen. 

 ਨਾਨਕ  ਸੂਤਕੁ  ਏਵ  ਨ  ਉਤਰੈ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਉਤਾਰੇ  ਧੋਇ  ॥੧॥ 
 नानक सूतकु एव न उतरै गिआनु उतारे धोइ ॥१॥ 
 Nānak sūṯak ev na uṯrai gi▫ān uṯāre ḏẖo▫e. ||1|| 
 O Nanak, impurity cannot be removed in this way; it is washed away only by spiritual wisdom. ||1|| 

Then I suggest you read the following before passing judgement on meat eaters:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

There is nothing in Gurbani pro-meat or anti-meat, I will be more than happy to debate the points at the above link and debunk any of these Vashnavite notions.

Thanks


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

AdsKhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

We as humans have to consume life- organic material- in order to survive. It is the law of the land. Life comes in many forms.  Paati paati jeo.......

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 8, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

I agree with you...so does  it mean to kill humans and eat....

There are many examples in Gurbani..as far I remember where it is said indirectly not rearding killing....well its a long debate...I hope you might have go through the videos 
Sikh Clips - Gurmat Ansaar Nirnay Part 01

Its a long debate..its now where written as to eat meat...and also not written as not to eat meat.... God gave teeth according to the diet....dogs, cats, tiger...they have tiger tooth...sharp...... not the flats one in the numbers...we humans have.... we have only four...to break something hards some of the times...frankly speaking....There are many indications given by Guru in Gurbani...to get a clue... no where it is indicated or in any Sakhi specified that Guru Ji ate meat......well I am not that much knowledgeable regarding SGGS Ji Maharaj till date...

I know its a long debate....even Kala Afgana has also supported eating meat...Not even SGGS Ji...nor rehat maryda by SGPC specifies specifically to eat meat...there is no positive assurance...rather negative assurance regarding Kuttha- Meat is specified...

I am happy being Veg...but my elder brother is Amritdhari and he holds the opinion similar to you.... 

" Men believe what wants to believe"....

Chardi Kala....


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

AdsKhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

Life is life and as mentioned in my post, it comes in many forms. If need be, one may have to eat human flesh for survival. In China people eat dogs, cats and monkeys. Cannibalism was a common thing in some tribes.

I have no problem with your being a vegetarian but your must be aware that despite being a vegetarian you do eat life for your survival. There is no other way. Ik Ong Kaar has created the world in this manner.

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> I agree with you...so does  it mean to kill humans and eat....



A spurious argument. Do you eat tree bark? or grass? If not why?




AdsKhalsa said:


> There are many examples in Gurbani..as far I remember where it is said indirectly not rearding killing....well its a long debate...I hope you might have go through the videos
> Sikh Clips - Gurmat Ansaar Nirnay Part 01



No there are no examples in Bani not to eat meat, or to eat vegetables only. NOne whatsoever. Like I said, if you want to debate the issue click on the fools wrangle over flesh link.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html




AdsKhalsa said:


> Its a long debate..its now where written as to eat meat...and also not written as not to eat meat.... God gave teeth according to the diet....dogs, cats, tiger...they have tiger tooth...sharp...... not the flats one in the numbers...we humans have.... we have only four...to break something hards some of the times...frankly speaking....



Wrong.

We are Omnivores and posses the organs teeth etc to eat meat and vegetable matter. Infact man would not have evolved his brain if he had not eaten meat.

06.14.99 - Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet




AdsKhalsa said:


> There are many indications given by Guru in Gurbani...to get a clue... no where it is indicated or in any Sakhi specified that Guru Ji ate meat......well I am not that much knowledgeable regarding SGGS Ji Maharaj till date...



I would argue against that, but like said on the above link.





AdsKhalsa said:


> I know its a long debate....even Kala Afgana has also supported eating meat...Not even SGGS Ji...nor rehat maryda by SGPC specifies specifically to eat meat...there is no positive assurance...rather negative assurance regarding Kuttha- Meat is specified...



Avtar Singh Brahma, Sant Maskeen ate meat, so the Afghana comparison is no real comparison.

Rehat Maryada is very specific on Kuttha meat being banned - Kuttha being defined as Halaal in the Rehat Maryada but in the wider context that which is ritually sacrificed.




AdsKhalsa said:


> I am happy being Veg...but my elder brother is Amritdhari and he holds the opinion similar to you.... .



If you are happy to be Veg then that is good, but you have to accept that there are meat eating Amritdhari's and that is not against Sikhism.





AdsKhalsa said:


> " Men believe what wants to believe"....
> 
> Chardi Kala....




Not in this instance, history, Bani, Rehat Maryada is specific on this issue, I I lead you to the link again:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Discuss it there....and educate yourself.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...
> 
> it says : [SIZE=-1]Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered                    the Muslim way;
> 
> ...



I have changed no word, but Kuttha's wider definition IS ritually sacrificed meat.


We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.
Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press 



And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.
Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 9, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...Randip Singh Ji...

Regarding changing words...you replied. "[SIZE=-1]*"*[/SIZE]ur own REhat Maryada allows non-Kuttha meat.*"

Sorry ...its says NOT TO EAT KUTTHA MEAT.....* but its doesn't say "you are allowed to eat Non-Kuttha Meat'

all Teekakaar have explained Gurbani differently... so I don't think so that Gurbani has just one fixed meaning....

I don't want to prove that I understand whole Gurbani.. rather I would like to immerse in it...



I am thankful to you for inviting me on that thread...but sorry to say...If I would like to discuss and educate my self...I'll join you there...


Chardi Kala......


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

*Sorry ...its says NOT TO EAT KUTTHA MEAT.....* but its doesn't say "you are allowed to eat Non-Kuttha Meat'..well IF the intention was to BAN ALL meat..then why even BOTHER to  put word Kuttha in...can be more clear by simply saying..NO MEAT ALLOWED.Period. Anyone can play mental calisthenics....some people get all their exercise from mental acrobatics..others are more practical..so when it says..DONT WEAR BLACK..it automatically means all other colours are allowed...it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out..on the other hand if they meant  NO COLOURS ALLOWED..then somebody will take it to mean..NO CLOTHES ALLOWED..since all clothes must have some colour...?? This si what is being doen with the word Kuttha...under guise of NO KUTTHA..people are saying NO MEAT...???? funny isnt it.
GURU NANAK JI gave us the most GRAPHIC DESCRIPTION of the MURDER of the SUGAR CANE...its the equivalent of Modern day U-Tube videos animal rights activiist regularly put up to DISCOURAGEMEAT EATING...to show all the Blood and Gore and Cruelty etc in slaughter houses...if you are DISGUSTED..READ the SUGAR CANE Graphic Randip Singh ji has quoted..its from SGGS. IF it was about animal slaughter...it would be the MOST QUOTED SHABAD to back up anti meat ....BUT since its about SUGAR...the SILENT KILLER that is the DRIVING FORCE BEHIND so many DISEASES and is leading cause of OBESITY/FAT/Heart Disese/Diabetes/Kidney Failure etc etc etc..and our @vegetrain friends@ LOVE SUGAR...( met any Sant Baba who refuses Ladoos/Barfis/Jalebis/and KHOA ??...of course NOT..their Goggarrs show they love Sugar..and we do too..all Gurdwars use LOads of SUGAR in Langgars..who cares about this shabd...who cares that in Sri raag on Page 15 Guru Ji FORBIDS EXCESS SUGAR...way BEFORE he  even mentions MEAT ???? IN FACT..meat appears LAST on Guru Jis LIST...BUT we Place it FIRST ??? How come ??? Can someone please explain ??


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

Evolution Scientists have arrived at conclusion that Vegetarin consumers like the Dinasours had tiny brains...HUMAN BRAIN Development came about as result of MEAT Consumption....then where will be these @teeth comparers@...since GURBANI completely agrees with most CORRECT SCIENCE. IF any Science is Correct..then Gurbani also says the same thing...unlike other religious texts...and in this case too there might be irrefutable vidence coming soon..and of course Gurbani is also correct..only these vegetrains will be wrong...


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 9, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..Gyani Ji..

I understanding....I replied to Randip Singh Ji...on his words " Rehat Maryada Allows Non Kuttha".... 

 I am agreeing that it "Does not allow Kuttha...." but its not written as "we allow non-kuttha"...be specific about use of words....I don't understand why everybody stress so much on making other people to EAT MEAT..and even say that "its written as allowed".  I am happy being a vegetarian and I dont like meat.... I said earlier that Gurbani Doesn't Specify about MEAT....so why to argue.......

Why to argue on Impurity...I haven't said a single word about impurity....this earth is impure with blood of so many people and animals...

Thanks for sharing knowledge......

Chardi Kala......


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...Randip Singh Ji...
> 
> Regarding changing words...you replied. "[SIZE=-1]*"*[/SIZE]ur own REhat Maryada allows non-Kuttha meat.*"
> 
> ...



Rehat Maryada does not say eat, Onion, or Garlic, or Potatoes , or Carrots, or Strawberries, or Runner beans, or Avocado, or Pear, or Apple.

You are just playing with words. 

I prefer compromise rather than imposing my will on other, and telling them what to eat.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..Gyani Ji..
> 
> I understanding....I replied to Randip Singh Ji...on his words " Rehat Maryada Allows Non Kuttha"....
> 
> ...



No one is telling YOU to eat meat, but you are trying to subtly say eating meat is wrong. That I find unacceptable.

This 





> I am agreeing that it "Does not allow Kuttha...." but its not written as "we allow non-kuttha".



is play on words and designed to make meat eaters feel guilty.

Like I said before there is nothing in Rehat maryada that says you can eat peas, or carrots, or oranges etc etc, so stop trying to use that argument against meat eaters. It does not wash.


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