# How To See God In All?



## RD1 (Oct 10, 2016)

In our day to day lives, we can come across people who say and do things that can anger, offed, and irritate us. Whether its someone cutting you off on the road, someone saying something rude/mean to you, someone judging you, someone cheating you, or overhearing someone say discriminatory comments (such as hearing someone make a racist remark about another person) - I can easily feel myself getting angry, and wanting to and sometimes actually lashing back at the person. Its natural to feel anger, but how can we overcome this so it does not blind us, how can we channel this energy in a more productive manner, how can we truly learn to see "God in all?"


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## chazSingh (Oct 11, 2016)

RD1 said:


> In our day to day lives, we can come across people who say and do things that can anger, offed, and irritate us. Whether its someone cutting you off on the road, someone saying something rude/mean to you, someone judging you, someone cheating you, or overhearing someone say discriminatory comments (such as hearing someone make a racist remark about another person) - I can easily feel myself getting angry, and wanting to and sometimes actually lashing back at the person. Its natural to feel anger, but how can we overcome this so it does not blind us, how can we channel this energy in a more productive manner, how can we truly learn to see "God in all?"



Seeing God in all is difficult as we are so entangled in the creation that we get lost in it very quickly...
so one moment we are showing compassion, and then someone cuts you up in traffic and Ego sets in and we only see the 'other' person...followed by Anger etc etc...

In reality...the truth is, there is only God...so how do we see God in all...?

Well, Guru Ji says, if you want to really exprience God, you have to go within yourself, to look within yourself...this is the only place we (ego) can get darshan of Waheguru and know of the truth of everything...

So then...if you're lucky to have this experience, then you will know that Waheguru is also in everything else...your outlook changes...
doesn;t mean you won't find yourself in difficult situations...but now you know the truth and act occordingly.

Some say you will also see God within everything...

maybe we will find out if we follow Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's instructions..

god bless


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## Harry Haller (Oct 11, 2016)

RD1 said:


> In our day to day lives, we can come across people who say and do things that can anger, offed, and irritate us. Whether its someone cutting you off on the road, someone saying something rude/mean to you, someone judging you, someone cheating you, or overhearing someone say discriminatory comments (such as hearing someone make a racist remark about another person) - I can easily feel myself getting angry, and wanting to and sometimes actually lashing back at the person. Its natural to feel anger, but how can we overcome this so it does not blind us, how can we channel this energy in a more productive manner, how can we truly learn to see "God in all?"



Just because we see God in all, does not mean we have to be doormats. I personally find it very hard to get angry, and it has caused me no end of problems, its a bit like those that cannot feel pain for medical reasons, it sounds wonderful, except pain is normally a warning sign that something is wrong, it makes you do something about it, if you feel pain in your foot and look down and you have hurt yourself, you may not realise otherwise, pain is good, pain is needed, if pain was not there, I would not have realised I was having my last heart attack. 

Anger, in my view is quite similar, it is a sign that something is wrong, it heightens the body, gets the senses ready for action, adrenalin starts pumping, flee or fight, you are ready to deal with whatever is making you angry. 

If you come home and a large bearded man is raping your mother, your first instinct is to get angry, how does it help that you see god in the large bearded man? Are you suggesting you should not get angry? If you are talking about petty anger, as in the points you raised above, its quite simple, most of these things you have probably done yourself at some stage, so if your getting angry at someone else for doing them, then by default you should also be angry with yourself, as a rule of thumb, I think anyone doing what you have already done, or do, should not make you angry.


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## chazSingh (Oct 11, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Just because we see God in all, does not mean we have to be doormats. I personally find it very hard to get angry, and it has caused me no end of problems, its a bit like those that cannot feel pain for medical reasons, it sounds wonderful, except pain is normally a warning sign that something is wrong, it makes you do something about it, if you feel pain in your foot and look down and you have hurt yourself, you may not realise otherwise, pain is good, pain is needed, if pain was not there, I would not have realised I was having my last heart attack.
> 
> Anger, in my view is quite similar, it is a sign that something is wrong, it heightens the body, gets the senses ready for action, adrenalin starts pumping, flee or fight, you are ready to deal with whatever is making you angry.
> 
> If you come home and a large bearded man is raping your mother, your first instinct is to get angry, how does it help that you see god in the large bearded man? Are you suggesting you should not get angry? If you are talking about petty anger, as in the points you raised above, its quite simple, most of these things you have probably done yourself at some stage, so if your getting angry at someone else for doing them, then by default you should also be angry with yourself, as a rule of thumb, I think anyone doing what you have already done, or do, should not make you angry.



1. no one is saying be a doormat lol... its not been suggested you be one...

2. questions.....Be driven by Anger....lost in it...controlled by it, out of control? or aware of your anger, utilize it, but be in full control...you are in control, alert, focussed...and able to make the best decisions in that moment? see a difference? this is taught in most martial arts...

3. Self Defence and protecting another from harm...commendable, great, a fantastic instinct to have...be in hukam...follow your instinct .... but be aware and use anger, not be used by it

4. Sometimes when you know this whole shizzle is a play...All God, created everything, is everything....and beyond...then sometimes its easy to sit on a hot plate and know who, what you are...fearless, undying, without hate, part of the EK....then it doesn't really matter if this is what Waheguru intended...
This is where i want to be...to know the 'real' me...waheguru....the truth, so that nothing, absolutely nothing can shake me...because i'll know the truth


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## Sikhilove (Oct 11, 2016)

RD1 said:


> In our day to day lives, we can come across people who say and do things that can anger, offed, and irritate us. Whether its someone cutting you off on the road, someone saying something rude/mean to you, someone judging you, someone cheating you, or overhearing someone say discriminatory comments (such as hearing someone make a racist remark about another person) - I can easily feel myself getting angry, and wanting to and sometimes actually lashing back at the person. Its natural to feel anger, but how can we overcome this so it does not blind us, how can we channel this energy in a more productive manner, how can we truly learn to see "God in all?"





chazSingh said:


> 1. no one is saying be a doormat lol... its not been suggested you be one...
> 
> 2. questions.....Be driven by Anger....lost in it...controlled by it, out of control? or aware of your anger, utilize it, but be in full control...you are in control, alert, focussed...and able to make the best decisions in that moment? see a difference? this is taught in most martial arts...
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure you already know who you are. 

We are Him, He is us. Truth has no form. The Truth is Nothing.

Only a frequency beyond what mortals can comprehend. 

We live for this truth, we live it serve it, die for it. That's what the Gurus did.


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## RD1 (Oct 11, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Truth has no form. The Truth is Nothing



I found this to be a very interesting line. Can you please elaborate further on what you mean by this? Thanks!
 


Harry Haller said:


> most of these things you have probably done yourself at some stage, so if your getting angry at someone else for doing them, then by default you should also be angry with yourself



Most definitely. Our reactions to others can teach us a lot about our own selves. If i were to become angry and impulsively lash out/lash back at someone, this is certainly not something I am proud of, and not the ideal way that I would want my anger to manifest.
 


chazSingh said:


> if you want to really exprience God, you have to go within yourself, to look within yourself



I completely agree with this. Looking within yourself and practicing deep introspection, assists so much with gaining self-awareness, and getting in touch with your core self. When one can look at them self so fully and openly, I think it can facilitate doing so with another, and this essentially builds empathy. It can just be difficult to hold on to whatever we experience and learn from looking within!...I guess this is when ego starts taking over again!


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## Sikhilove (Oct 13, 2016)

RD1 said:


> I found this to be a very interesting line. Can you please elaborate further on what you meant!



Hi

God has no form, everything's a projection of this state of nothingness. He sat for many ages and realised himself to be this most humble Truth.

Gurbani tells us that in the midst of ego and desire to stay egoless and low. This is why- in Truth, we have no form, no image, no status, we just are, which is why we find peace when we just Be.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 13, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Hi
> 
> God has no form, everything's a projection of this state of nothingness. He sat for many ages and realised himself to be this most humble Truth.
> 
> Gurbani tells us that in the midst of ego and desire to stay egoless and low. This is why- in Truth, we have no form, no image, no status, we just are, which is why we find peace when we just Be.


 and then what do we do?


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## RD1 (Oct 13, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Gurbani tells us that in the midst of ego and desire to stay egoless and low. This is why- in Truth, we have no form, no image, no status, we just are, which is why we find peace when we just Be.



In Truth, we are detached.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 14, 2016)

RD1 said:


> In Truth, we are detached.



and then what do we do?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 14, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> and then what do we do?



Then we live and we learn whilst remaining true to this gyan and the gyan of gurbani with our heads on the ground.

We embrace the dukh and sukh and detach in knowledge that its all him.

Chardi kala is when no matter what we are blessed with be it dukh or sukh, we remain psychologically sound in Truth recognition- it's all him.

 We go further and further down the path until one day you're so psychologically sound that you dont fall (The Satgurus).


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## Harry Haller (Oct 14, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Then we live and we learn whilst remaining true to this gyan and the gyan of gurbani with our heads on the ground.
> 
> We embrace the dukh and sukh and detach in knowledge that its all him.
> 
> ...


 and then what?


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## Navdeep88 (Oct 14, 2016)

Why place such a big burden on yourself? 

There exist bad people in the world, when you recognize them by their actions, the ideal thing is to distance yourself and not try to change them. I think it's problematic to go through the world taking everything as a "sign" and taking things personally. As long as a person has a good idea of what matters to them and contributes to that, the opinions of strangers should not hold so much weight.

Even problems should not hold that much weight, and by this, I mean things like addictions and not hunger (which has a quicker solution). If you truly believe God is in all, you have to recognize that you don't have a lot of authority in the lives of others, in fact, not complete authority in yours either. 

I do find the "channeling energy"/intuition thing highly problematic.


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## RD1 (Oct 14, 2016)

Navdeep88 said:


> There exist bad people in the world, when you recognize them by their actions, the ideal thing is to distance yourself and not try to change them.



It's not about changing others. Its about cultivating the best in yourself, and learning to be less affected by others - becoming detached 



Navdeep88 said:


> If you truly believe God is in all, you have to recognize that you don't have a lot of authority in the lives of others, in fact, not complete authority in yours either.



I agree, and that's why we have to learn to "just be."



Navdeep88 said:


> I do find the "channeling energy"/intuition thing highly problematic.



I am not sure what you mean by this.
 


Sikhilove said:


> Chardi kala is when no matter what we are blessed with be it dukh or sukh, we remain psychologically sound in Truth recognition- it's all him.



Its like learning to take each moment as it comes, without attributing our personal meanings of dukh or sukh to the moment, and thereby not becoming entangled and attached.


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## Sikhilove (Oct 15, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> and then what?



God knows, the discoveries are endless and infinite just like him. This path never ends. You get to a point where you think you know a lot then realise you actually know nothing, you feel like a newborn discovering for the first time. 

This path, is beyond logic. It's the path of True Love, which is beyond the shackles of wordly logic.


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## Navdeep88 (Oct 15, 2016)

RD1 said:


> Navdeep88 said: ↑
> I do find the "channeling energy"/intuition thing highly problematic.
> I am not sure what you mean by this.



"the secret" "law of attraction", power of 'intention' new age voodo stuff. anything that demotes righteous conduct by substituting it with lame 'good intentions'


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## RD1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Navdeep88 said:


> "the secret" "law of attraction", power of 'intention' new age voodo stuff. anything that demotes righteous conduct by substituting it with lame 'good intentions'



Hmm I can see it more like striving to maintain a "chardi kala" mindset. The more we frame our thoughts to stay in high spirits, the better we will feel. And this mental strength allows us to handle life in a more fulfilling way.


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## Navdeep88 (Oct 15, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> God knows, the discoveries are endless and infinite just like him. This path never ends. You get to a point where you think you know a lot then realise you actually know nothing, you feel like a newborn discovering for the first time.
> 
> This path, is beyond logic. It's the path of True Love, which is beyond the shackles of wordly logic.



The path is not beyond Logic, but logical. Logic is not weak, it's a tool given to us. As competent adult human beings, 'worldly logic' is at our disposal to use for good. I do not think it is in God's interest for grown adults to behave like children or newborns. It is not glamorous but we must accept the responsibilities of adulthood and that the 'path' is not divorced from them.

If we consider 'the path', as humans, at best we can only see a few steps ahead. Our logic is our compass, given to us. We see it points north, and we do our best to carry forward. We do not have a bird's eye view, the conditions may be foggy, the geography might change, there may or may not be enough rations ahead but we trust ourselves to carry forward. Because, as time moves forward, people have to move too. On the other hand, we assume that God has a bird's eye view perhaps knows of changes in geography and maybe a few roadblocks. Our compass still points north and in all conditions, if not for our logic and commitment, we would not stay on the path.
 


RD1 said:


> Hmm I can see it more like striving to maintain a "chardi kala" mindset. The more we frame our thoughts to stay in high spirits, the better we will feel. And this mental strength allows us to handle life in a more fulfilling way.



Fair enough.


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## Seeker2013 (Oct 16, 2016)

It is so tough to see god in a person who always {censored}es you offf . Sorry but thats true.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 16, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> God knows, the discoveries are endless and infinite just like him. This path never ends. You get to a point where you think you know a lot then realise you actually know nothing, you feel like a newborn discovering for the first time.
> 
> This path, is beyond logic. It's the path of True Love, which is beyond the shackles of wordly logic.



Sorry, this is what happens when you realise the truth?


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## RD1 (Oct 16, 2016)

Seeker2013 said:


> It is so tough to see god in a person who always {censored}es you offf . Sorry but thats true.



I agree - it can be soo difficult. At this point, we really need to reflect on our ego and anger I suppose, and detach.


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## Sikhilove (Oct 16, 2016)

Navdeep88 said:


> The path is not beyond Logic, but logical. Logic is not weak, it's a tool given to us. As competent adult human beings, 'worldly logic' is at our disposal to use for good. I do not think it is in God's interest for grown adults to behave like children or newborns. It is not glamorous but we must accept the responsibilities of adulthood and that the 'path' is not divorced from them.
> 
> If we consider 'the path', as humans, at best we can only see a few steps ahead. Our logic is our compass, given to us. We see it points north, and we do our best to carry forward. We do not have a bird's eye view, the conditions may be foggy, the geography might change, there may or may not be enough rations ahead but we trust ourselves to carry forward. Because, as time moves forward, people have to move too. On the other hand, we assume that God has a bird's eye view perhaps knows of changes in geography and maybe a few roadblocks. Our compass still points north and in all conditions, if not for our logic and commitment, we would not stay on the path.
> 
> ...



Logic can indeed be used as a tool in the khel. What I meant by the path being beyond worldly logic is that I t is not able to be defined or constrained by logic.

One may reach a perceived block on the road and wonder, what now. And then the heart speaks and we keep moving forward, continuing to discover the truth out of love.

Many say that Love is the most powerful force in the universe, and indeed it is, for its out of True Love that the universe was created.


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## chazSingh (Oct 17, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Sorry, this is what happens when you realise the truth?




I have no idea what i'll do when i have Waheguru Realization...whatever that realization or how it manifests will be...

why think about it?  why do we need to think, think think all the time...sometimes i just want to follow my heart wherever it takes me...and just be in the moment...enjoy it...

We say Waheguru is an endless creative force...then i guess there will not ever be any shortage of things to do, see, be a part of...just be...go with the flow (waheguru)


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Oct 17, 2016)

RD1 said:


> In our day to day lives, we can come across people who say and do things that can anger, offed, and irritate us. Whether its someone cutting you off on the road, someone saying something rude/mean to you, someone judging you, someone cheating you, or overhearing someone say discriminatory comments (such as hearing someone make a racist remark about another person) - I can easily feel myself getting angry, and wanting to and sometimes actually lashing back at the person. Its natural to feel anger, but how can we overcome this so it does not blind us, how can we channel this energy in a more productive manner, how can we truly learn to see "God in all?"


Have you touched the leaf of a tree to your head and enjoyed the warmth? Have you seen into the lily for hours and gone beyond? Have you listen to the cuckoo early in the morning and getting lost into music reverberating in each plant? Have you enjoyed a bee buzzing on a flower; sitting on it, sucking its juices and flying away contented? Have you slept on a green grass by the side of a calmly flowing rivulet? have you been watching the glory of snowy mountains covered with colorful clouds? You may go on enjoying the world around if you wish to enjoy the bounty placed before you by the God almighty otherwise you may feel getting lost into the dull drab sound of machinery; the itching and piercing sound of horns; the dirty smell of waste dumped nearby the road and so on. Choice is all yours.


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## RD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> Have you touched the leaf of a tree to your head and enjoyed the warmth? Have you seen into the lily for hours and gone beyond? Have you listen to the cuckoo early in the morning and getting lost into music reverberating in each plant? Have you enjoyed a bee buzzing on a flower; sitting on it, sucking its juices and flying away contented? Have you slept on a green grass by the side of a calmly flowing rivulet? have you been watching the glory of snowy mountains covered with colorful clouds? You may go on enjoying the world around if you wish to enjoy the bounty placed before you by the God almighty otherwise you may feel getting lost into the dull drab sound of machinery; the itching and piercing sound of horns; the dirty smell of waste dumped nearby the road and so on. Choice is all yours.



That is lovely post.


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## Sikhilove (Oct 18, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> I have no idea what i'll do when i have Waheguru Realization...whatever that realization or how it manifests will be...
> 
> why think about it?  why do we need to think, think think all the time...sometimes i just want to follow my heart wherever it takes me...and just be in the moment...enjoy it...
> 
> We say Waheguru is an endless creative force...then i guess there will not ever be any shortage of things to do, see, be a part of...just be...go with the flow (waheguru)



Yep the path is never ending, we never stop learning and discovering. 

When you meditate, meditate on the nothingness without expectation.


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## RD1 (Oct 18, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> meditate on the nothingness without expectation



how does one do this?


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## Harry Haller (Oct 18, 2016)

you talk of reaching the end of the path, then say that the path is never ending, which is it?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 19, 2016)

RD1 said:


> how does one do this?



Sit down to meditate. Close your eyes. The darkness you see is the truth. The different coloured dots you may see are emotions. 

Listen to the ringing sound you hear when you relax, it's the Anhad naad, the primal sound, symbolic of the nothiness and silence. 

Relax, let go and let the Samadhi take over.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 19, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Sit down to meditate. Close your eyes. The darkness you see is the truth. The different coloured dots you may see are emotions.
> 
> Listen to the ringing sound you hear when you relax, it's the Anhad naad, the primal sound, symbolic of the nothiness and silence.
> 
> Relax, let go and let the Samadhi take over.



you speak very definitively, are these your own conclusions or are they documented anywhere?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 20, 2016)

="Harry Haller, post: 210876, member: 146 





> you speak very definitively, are these your own conclusions or are they documented anywhere?



Gurbani speaks of the primal void. I have also experienced this and sat in Samadhi.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 20, 2016)

I do not believe Gurbani equates darkness with truth and spots with emotions.


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## swarn bains (Oct 20, 2016)

> how does one do this?
> Sit down to meditate. Close your eyes. The darkness you see is the truth. The different coloured dots you may see are emotions.
> 
> Listen to the ringing sound you hear when you relax, it's the Anhad naad, the primal sound, symbolic of the nothiness and silence.
> ...



These are the signs of self induced meditation. To progress in meditation the guru is a must. if one does not have a guru then sooner or later it is going to affect you in a way that you start calling yourself God and go out of control. be ware of it


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## Sikhilove (Oct 20, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> *Sikhilove
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I followed the Guru and this what I discovered.

We are told to do naam Simran/ meditation on just about every page of Gurbani, and samadhi is also spoken of in Gurbani. None of what I said is new. Everything is Truth but it's a projection from the primal void also spoken of in Gurbani.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 20, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> We are told to do naam Simran/ meditation on just about every page of Gurbani,



have you ever thought that your interpretations are literal and leave no scope for the use of intellect? ie, the truth is not telling lies, naam simran is to repeat the same word over and over, do you not think that Guruji wishes us to use our brains?


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## swarn bains (Oct 21, 2016)

This is how I address God as

*  ਮੇਰੇ ਰੱਬ*

 ਸਜਦਾ ਯਾ ਸ਼ਿਕਵਾ ਕਰੂੰ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੱਸ ਮਿਲੇਂਗਾ ਕਦ

 ਬਿਨਾਂ ਵੇਖਿਆਂ ਮਾਹੀ ਵੇ, ਮੈਂ ਕਿਹਨੂੰ ਆਖਾਂ ਰੱਬ

 ਜੰਗਲ ਬੇਲੇ ਖੋਜ ਥੱਕੀ, ਮੈਂ ਢੂੰਡੀਆਂ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਥਾਵਾਂ

 ਤੱਕ ਆਕਾਸ਼ਾਂ ਹਾਰ ਗਈ, ਮੈਂ ਔਸੀਆਂ ਪਾਈਆਂ ਕਾਵਾਂ

 ਯਾਰ ਮਿਲਾਵੋ ਸਈਓ ਨੀ, ਜਿਹਨੇ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਜੱਗ

 ਵੱਲ ਸਾਗਰਾਂ ਵੇਖਾਂ ਨੀ, ਮੈਂ ਲਹਿਰਾਂ ਵੇਖ ਡਰਾਵਾਂ

 ਮਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਕਾਸ਼ਾਂ ਉੜ ਜਾਵੇ, ਉੜ ਚਾਰੇ ਵੰਨੇ ਜਾਵਾਂ

 ਪੌਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰ ਸਾਰੇ, ਢੋਲਣਾ, ਸਾਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਸਜ ਧੱਜ

 ਹਰ ਕੋਈ ਇਹੋ ਆਖਦਾ, ਹਰਿ, ਤੂੰ ਹਰ ਅੰਦਰ ਵਸੇਂ

 ਨਜ਼ਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ, ਨਾ ਰਾਹ ਮਿਲਣ ਦਾ ਦੱਸੇਂ

 ਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਣਾ, ਫਿਰ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਸਕਾਂ ਮੈਂ ਲੱਭ

 ਚੰਦ ਸੂਰਜ ਵੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਣਾਏ, ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਬਣਾਏ ਤਾਰੇ

 ਤੇਰਾ ਸਜਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ, ਉਹ ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾਉਂਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ

 ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਤੇਰੀਆਂ ਖ੍ਹੇਡਾਂ, ਤੂੰ ਠੱਗਾਂ ਦਾ ਠੱਗ

 ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਇੱਥੇ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਜਿਆ, ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤ

 ਸਰਦੀ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਗਰਮੀਂ ਲਿਆਵੇਂ, ਦਿਨ ਤੋਂ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਰਾਤ

 ਕੋਈ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਨਾ ਮੋੜ ਸਕੇ, ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਕਦਾ ਭੱਜ

 ਅਚਰਜ ਖ੍ਹੇਡਾਂ ਵੇਖ ਵੇਖ, ਮੇਰੀ ਵਧਦੀ ਜਾਏ ਹੈਰਾਨੀ

 ਚਾਰੇ ਵੰਨੇਂ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਏਂ, ਜੱਗ ਚ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਾਨੀ

 ਬੈਂਸ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਜਿਆ, ਚੰਨਾਂ, ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਉਹਦਾ ਰੱਬ

 ਜੱਗ ਛੱਡਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਆ ਜਾਵੀਂ, ਜਦੋਂ ਛੱਡਾਂ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਤੇਰੀ

 ਜੇ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਫੁਰਸਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ, ਲਾ ਮੋਢਾ ਅਰਥੀ ਮੇਰੀ

 ਮੇਰੇ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨਾਹ ਨ ਬਖਸ਼ ਦਵੀਂ, ਦੇਹ ਸਜ਼ ਰੱਜ ਰੱਜ

 ਦਰਸ ਵਖਾ ਦੇ ਢੋਲਾ, ਨਿੱਤ ਮਿੰਨਤਾਂ ਕਰਦੀ ਤੇਰੀਆਂ

 ਆ ਪਾ ਦੇ ਖੈਰ ਗਰੀਬਾਂ ਨੂੰ, ਝੋਲੀਆਂ ਭਰ ਦੇ ਮੇਰੀਆਂ

ਚੰਨਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਵੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਣ ਜਾਵਾਂ, ਬਹੁੜ ਨਾ ਆਵਾਂ ਜੱਗ


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## Sikhilove (Oct 21, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> have you ever thought that your interpretations are literal and leave no scope for the use of intellect? ie, the truth is not telling lies, naam simran is to repeat the same word over and over, do you not think that Guruji wishes us to use our brains?



Lol of course, but truthfully. Don't use your mind to indulge in rubbish, use it to do what u have to do. Fulfill your worldly responsibilities and also practice spirituality.

I never said naam is to repeat the same word over and over, you're putting words in my mouth. 

Naam is truth- it's everything, it's frequency, its pure unconditional love.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 21, 2016)

What is it I have to do?
How do I practice spirituality?
What is Naam Simran?


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## swarn bains (Oct 21, 2016)

naam simran, meditate and many other words or names are used by the people to pretend to become spiritual but spirituality is a state of mind . how it is achieved only a few people know about it. please comment if anyone read my above poem


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## Sikhilove (Oct 22, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Lol of course, but truthfully. Don't use your mind to indulge in rubbish, use it to do what u have to do. Fulfill your worldly responsibilities and also practice spirituality.
> 
> 
> Harry Haller said:
> ...



Have you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

I'd suggest read it when you get a chance.

Naam simran= meditate on naam. Naam is Truth, its a frequency beyond what people can comprehend. Discovered by applying principles of Gurbani to our lives as per Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Spirituality= live truth, Serve truth, speak truth, die truth. Do bandgi good deeds. Learn and detach from the face of the khel  in truth and teach others out of it aswell.

He put us here to discover the Truth/ ourselves in a fraction of the time that He did. Teaching others is the same unconditional love that He gave to us when he blessed us with this opportunity to realise ourselves. The truth = Nothing. There is nothing, we are nothing, only pure unconditional love.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 22, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Have you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji?



I have read parts, however, I believe that it is encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I do believe one has to get ones head round that before proceeding as it sets the tone, but we are all different. 



Sikhilove said:


> I'd suggest read it when you get a chance.



thank you, however, I do believe no one stands between me and 'god', I do what I do, in my own time, in my own way, otherwise it is purely lip service. 



Sikhilove said:


> Naam simran= meditate on naam. Naam is Truth, its a frequency beyond what people can comprehend. Discovered by applying principles of Gurbani to our lives as per Guru Granth Sahib ji.



these are just words though, they mean nothing, to most naam simran is the repetition of a mantra, but you are contradicting yourself, if it is a frequency beyond what people can comprehend, how can it be discovered period?



Sikhilove said:


> He put us here to discover the Truth/ ourselves in a fraction of the time that He did.



so there was a time when 'god' did not know the truth and had to learn it?



Sikhilove said:


> Teaching others is the same unconditional love that He gave to us when he blessed us with this opportunity to realise ourselves



teaching others what? that 'god' learned to be a god? that 'god' was never always true? these are not teachings that I wish to learn and I would ask you to be very careful before you put yourself in a position where you are teaching what actually amounts to blasphemy. 



Sikhilove said:


> The truth = Nothing. There is nothing, we are nothing, only pure unconditional love.



I disagree, it may be a state you aspire to, but most people are not pure unconditional love


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## Original (Oct 22, 2016)

People,

Let us remain on course and keep in check what it is that we are discussing ? God in All.
*
Anhad*, literal meaning is "unstruck". A sound [shabad] that is, but unstruck, meaning, without cause. Have a think Sikhilove ! something that is unstruch but yet a sound, how could it possibly be ? Defies science and logic. And, if that'd be correct, can any of the human organs confirm hearing it ?

Those who hear the anhad shabad are forever silenced because there is no way of communicating. Bhagat Kabir Ji nips in the bud precisely for that reason when he says, "no letters of any alphabet can capture" [p340 SGGSJ].

Sikhilove, you're talking about certain states of being, anhad is an experience, transcendent, beyond time and space that cannot be expressed but had. More akin to the mystical experience of Christian belief - union with God !

Warm regards to all -


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## Sikhilove (Oct 24, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> I have read parts, however, I believe that it is encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I do believe one has to get ones head round that before proceeding as it sets the tone, but we are all different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes the entire Guru Granth Sahib Ji is an extension of mool mantar.

You could also similarly say that all u see is an extention of the formless truth. 

Gurbani says that Naam turns humans into angels without delay. When u live the truth you go beyond a mortal human psychology. 

Gurbani speaks about God being on his own sitting in the primal void in Samaadhi, deep meditation. He discovers himself through us- we are an extention of Him. Samaadhi is learning. 

We are an extention of Him, of His heart. Guru Gobind Singh Ji told us He can only be found through Love for a reason.
 


Original said:


> People,
> 
> Let us remain on course and keep in check what it is that we are discussing ? God in All.
> *
> ...


Yes even the ringing noise is symbolic. In Truth, there is no form, colour or sound. 

In the same way, our images are symbolic, all imagery is.


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## Original (Oct 24, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> *Yes* even the ringing *noise* is symbolic. In Truth, there is *no* form, colour or* sound*.


..I'm trying to get my head around [quote above in bold] "yes..noise" and "..no...sound" - pls clarify !


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## Harry Haller (Oct 24, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Gurbani speaks about God being on his own sitting in the primal void in Samaadhi, deep meditation. He discovers himself through us- we are an extention of Him. Samaadhi is learning.



are you saying that god is not perfect then, if he is in fact still learning and discovering himself?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 29, 2016)

Original said:


> ..I'm trying to get my head around [quote above in bold] "yes..noise" and "..no...sound" - pls clarify !



The primal void= the silence= our origin. 

Everything we see and the spiritual  plane is a projection of this nothingness. They're symbolic reflection. Anhad naad is symbolic reflection of the Truth, of the silence. Attuned to it, we silence the mind.
 


Harry Haller said:


> are you saying that god is not perfect then, if he is in fact still learning and discovering himself?



Gods been through every state of dukh and sukh possible. He also discovers through us- we are projections of the infinite- so the whole, the perfection of the heart is  within reach, but the projections and discoveries are infinite, like Him.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 29, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> The primal void= the silence= our origin.
> 
> Everything we see and the spiritual  plane is a projection of this nothingness. They're symbolic reflection. Anhad naad is symbolic reflection of the Truth, of the silence. Attuned to it, we silence the mind.
> 
> ...



I always thought God was perfect and has always been


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## Original (Oct 30, 2016)

Respected Sikhilove

The word "anhad" means "unstruck", why would Gur Ghar use that word ? Can you think of a sound in the physical world that is uncaused ? Can you think of the reason why Gur Amardas described it "anhad shabad vajay din raati gurmati shabad sunvan'ah" p124 SGGSJ. Here Guru Ji is saying that this Anhad Shabad is resounding 25/7 and is beyond the apprehension of the senses and is incommunicable. If the Guru says it is incommunicable, how can you communicate it ? Surely, you're expression is the work of the mind, don't you think ?   

The same Anhad Shabad is referenced by Bhagat Kabir on page 340 SGGSJ. The whole Sikh Spiritual, the nam, is "anhad shabad". It cannot be captured by any stretch of the imagination, but alone by the grace of Waheguru [Gur Prasad] can it be experienced. And, those who've experienced it expressed it as "mystical", meaning beyond time n space

It is beyond time and space, meaning, it is metaphysical. There is no way of "knowing it" only experiencing it and the experience is such, that it cannot be communicated. And, hence Gurbani a testament of the "anhad shabad"

Enjoy Diwali today - and all the best !


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## Sikhilove (Oct 30, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> I always thought God was perfect and has always been



Lol he is

What you're asking me to explain is beyond logic. He is the All knower of past present and future. But as we discover so does He.
 


Original said:


> Respected Sikhilove
> 
> The word "anhad" means "unstruck", why would Gur Ghar use that word ? Can you think of a sound in the physical world that is uncaused ? Can you think of the reason why Gur Amardas described it "anhad shabad vajay din raati gurmati shabad sunvan'ah" p124 SGGSJ. Here Guru Ji is saying that this Anhad Shabad is resounding 25/7 and is beyond the apprehension of the senses and is incommunicable. If the Guru says it is incommunicable, how can you communicate it ? Surely, you're expression is the work of the mind, don't you think ?
> 
> ...



If you relax and let go, you can hear the symbolic reflection of it. It is Gyan/Truth and takes you within, attuned to it you learn more and more and discover that He not only resides in your heart, but He Is your heart.


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## Original (Oct 31, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> If you relax and let go, you can hear the symbolic reflection of it


...Ms, we're not talking about symbolic, we're talking about "actual", Gur Ghar is talking about ACTUAL. Question: If the actual sound be unstruck, meaning, without cause, what ears must one have to hear it ? Surely, not physical ? And, if it'd be attunement, what must be attuned to what ? Here I think you'd be referring to the stillness [sehej] of the mind. Case in point is, what happens thereinafter is called anhad shabad, meaning, ineffable.

Gyan, Truth and the rest are words [means] to an end, the end is metaphysical, meaning, out of space and time. And, that is what "Anhad Shabad" is, meaning, you cannot ascribe any quality, quantity or property to it. Any attempt to capture it with words will fail. It is that simple !

Good day !


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## Harry Haller (Oct 31, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Lol he is
> 
> What you're asking me to explain is beyond logic. He is the All knower of past present and future. But as we discover so does He.



Can you tell me where in the SGGS it says this? 
Also, it is not beyond logic at all, something is either perfect and always has been, or its not, which is it? You are welcome to throw up clouds of dust to hide your answers behind, but a succinct answer would be appreciated.


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## Sikhilove (Nov 1, 2016)

Original said:


> ...Ms, we're not talking about symbolic, we're talking about "actual", Gur Ghar is talking about ACTUAL. Question: If the actual sound be unstruck, meaning, without cause, what ears must one have to hear it ? Surely, not physical ? And, if it'd be attunement, what must be attuned to what ? Here I think you'd be referring to the stillness [sehej] of the mind. Case in point is, what happens thereinafter is called anhad shabad, meaning, ineffable.
> 
> Gyan, Truth and the rest are words [means] to an end, the end is metaphysical, meaning, out of space and time. And, that is what "Anhad Shabad" is, meaning, you cannot ascribe any quality, quantity or property to it. Any attempt to capture it with words will fail. It is that simple !
> 
> Good day !



What is really heard and what's not? Gurbani says our bodies are clay vessels. Spirits roam around the earth, the Gurus turned lakes of ice into water, made coins appear out of thin air and stopped huge boulders of rocks with only a hand.

A hand isn't a hand, an ear isn't an ear. Recognise the khel for what it is instead of using worldly logic- it's a dream.
 


Harry Haller said:


> Can you tell me where in the SGGS it says this?
> Also, it is not beyond logic at all, something is either perfect and always has been, or its not, which is it? You are welcome to throw up clouds of dust to hide your answers behind, but a succinct answer would be appreciated.



The nothingness is perfect- it's pure unconditional love. We are projections of that nothingness. These are infinite discoveries which project from that nothingness.

Gurbani says that He is the all knower of the past present and future, it also says he expands His creation, google it.

He created this khel for us- we didn't exist once. Hence he discovered us whilst creating us. But We are parts of the Whole. Truth, the nothingness is the whole. His creation is fragments of it. Everything with an image is duality, put together, It's all the whole,

What u call clouds of dust is reality- the truth is beyond logic and no worldly logic can explain it.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 1, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Gurbani says that He is the all knower of the past present and future, it also says he expands His creation, google it.



I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance, also please point out where it states that God at some point was imperfect, and while your at it, also where it states that God uses our own experiences to learn from, thanks


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## Sikhilove (Nov 1, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance, also please point out where it states that God at some point was imperfect, and while your at it, also where it states that God uses our own experiences to learn from, thanks



Friend, part of sikhi is respecting others. I don't sense respect in your writings to me, but I see rudeness. You as an administrator on here should learn to speak more tactfully. 

When it comes to sikhi, writing Should be flowery, Gurbani speaks of heavens and hells, of demons and Angels. It tells us over and over again that His creation, even heaven realms cannot be described in worldly language. It speaks of a beauty beyond comprehension and beyond measure. 

If you want Wordly logic and Language, Sikhi isn't for you, because it's beyond language and logic. You're better off being a Scientist.

 Gurbani is poetry, it's beautiful because it's the teachings of True Love. 

There are planets, solar systems and galaxies. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end. There are worlds upon worlds of His creation. As He commands, so they exist. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices. Nanak says, it is really hard to describe" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 8). 

Contemplation is learning, it's discovery. Samadhi is discovery, your going within and learning more about yourself. 


"For endless eons, there was only utter darkness. There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of His Hukam. There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat in primal, profound Samaadhi.(1) There were no sources of creation or powers of speech, no air or water. There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going. There were no continents, nether regions, seven seas, rivers or flowing water.(2)" (SGGS p1035)

"For thirty-six ages, He created the darkness, abiding in the void. There were no Vedas, Puraanas or Shaastras there; only the Lord Himself existed. He Himself sat in the absolute trance, withdrawn from everything. Only He Himself knows His state; He Himself is the unfathomable ocean.(18)" (SGGS p555)


You continue to claim I'm saying God is imperfect. How can he be when he is ALL. We are created from the ALL. But as he creates his khel, He discovers the All in different fragmented aspects.

Again, beyond logic. If you can't go beyond logic, you won't get very far on this path. 

You haven't humbled yourself to even try and understand what I was talking about- instead you jump to slander and try and say that I think my Master is imperfect. Its useless even trying to explain anything to you because you don't get it and instead try to twist it.


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## Admin (Nov 1, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Friend, part of sikhi is respecting others. I don't sense respect in your writings to me, but I see rudeness. You as an administrator on here should learn to speak more tactfully.



@Sikhilove ji, the major part of Sikhi (learning) is to question every belief system. In the disguise/garb of respect, we conveniently undermine this major tenet of Sikhi. All @Harry Haller ji is asking you is to support your assertions with verifiable references from Gurbani, our only benchmark. Don't you think asking anybody to "google it" is not showing disrespect to our only Guru, SGGS? 



Sikhilove said:


> When it comes to sikhi, writing Should be flowery...



Please explain, What do you mean by flowery?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Friend, part of sikhi is respecting others. I don't sense respect in your writings to me, but I see rudeness. You as an administrator on here should learn to speak more tactfully.



You have yet to answer a single question I have asked of you, you post links to websites that laud a living Guru, you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof, otherwise, its quite easy, stop writing definitively, try using the words, 'in my opinion', or 'it is my thinking', but you don't you keep posting huge tracts of definitive statements that you then attribute to the SGGS. I would be failing in my job if this was not pointed out, it is nothing personal.



Sikhilove said:


> When it comes to sikhi, writing Should be flowery, Gurbani speaks of heavens and hells, of demons and Angels. It tells us over and over again that His creation, even heaven realms cannot be described in worldly language. It speaks of a beauty beyond comprehension and beyond measure.



Yes it does, and how that is interpreted is up to the individual, having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it, otherwise we will have a forum filled with everyone's personal opinion that no one feels the need to substantiate, there are other forums that operate like this, not this one.



Sikhilove said:


> If you want Wordly logic and Language, Sikhi isn't for you, because it's beyond language and logic. You're better off being a Scientist.



Thank you for your opinion but I am not a scientist, I find the SGGS full of worldly logic, I am surprised you have written this. Are you saying the SGGS has no worldly logic?



Sikhilove said:


> You continue to claim I'm saying God is imperfect. How can he be when he is ALL. We are created from the ALL. But as he creates his khel, He discovers the All in different fragmented aspects.



You have said many times God is learning, what other conclusion can one draw from such a statement? You see this is the problem with surface flowery writing, you forget that your words actually mean things if you follow them through, do you not wish me to take your writings seriously?
Should I just read them and bow down before your wisdom? If god is learning then he is not perfect, would you not say? Above you have said god discovers, again, if god is still discovering, then he is not perfect, perfection already knows, does not need to discover, please clarify this.



Sikhilove said:


> You haven't humbled yourself to even try and understand what I was talking about- instead you jump to slander and try and say that I think my Master is imperfect. Its useless even trying to explain anything to you because you don't get it and instead try to twist it.



How can I twist this statement that you made below



Sikhilove said:


> He discovers the All in different fragmented aspects.



*discover verb*
UK  /dɪˈskʌv.ər/ US  /dɪˈskʌv.ɚ/
[ T ] to find information, a place, or an object, especially for the first time:

If God is perfect then he knows all, discover is not a word that can be used for a perfect god.

Please clarify this, thank you.
 


Admin Singh said:


> Please explain, What do you mean by flowery?



Flowery is a word I used, I would say it describes writing that is full of buzz words but has no substance or fact.


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## chazSingh (Nov 2, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> You have yet to answer a single question I have asked of you, you post links to websites that laud a living Guru, you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof, otherwise, its quite easy, stop writing definitively, try using the words, 'in my opinion', or 'it is my thinking', but you don't you keep posting huge tracts of definitive statements that you then attribute to the SGGS. I would be failing in my job if this was not pointed out, it is nothing personal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Harry Ji, Have you ever been in love with someone? Can you describe that love in language? i'm sure you can...but how will it sound to others that read it? Flowery? 

Why is that? is it because love is just something that is beyind words and logic...it transcends it? its a deep kind of feeling, emotion, sense of something, it just is, and we experience it and its there, but pretty much un-explainable...

some things in life are just like that...it sounds flowery, bogus, crazy...it sounds nonsense at times, because it is...nonsense to the logical mind...and is just something you you experience which makes you think..."wow...just wow"..."wahe"...."guru" ...wondrous...and you leave it at that...because trying to understand it just leaves you banging your head...but wanting more...as its pure love...

Gurbani is hitting us at a physical level, mental level and spiritual level...so yes some of Gurbani is very logical, and understandable and straight to the point...other parts challenges our mind, our though process , psychology...to contemplate the physcal, to contemplate our own being...what we are, who we are, what we think, why we think it, and how to cleanse that process that we become better minds, and thus better people...

With a better, more trained and in control mind, we may start to understand that our mind is even more useful and more powerful to us than we could ever imagine...that we need it in order to investigate the spiritual also...

Then during this investigation of the spiritual the mind gets left behind because where we find ourselves goes beyond its scope..

and all we're left with is...coming back on this forum, trying to answer questions that we cannot really answer...and sounding very flowery


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> and all we're left with is...coming back on this forum, trying to answer questions that we cannot really answer...and sounding very flowery



Your humility, patience and perception have always rated high on my list, Chazji my dear brother, let us all write flowery to the cows come home, god knows I am capable of such writing myself, however, let us never expect our flowery writings to be confused with truth, yes, some questions we cannot answer, it might be better to admit such, than pretend otherwise and then be unable to substantiate, in a court of intellect and logic, our own floweryness.


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## Original (Nov 2, 2016)

Admin Singh said:


> the major part of Sikhi (learning) is to question every belief system. In the disguise/garb of respect, we conveniently undermine this major tenet of Sikhi.


..please qualify !


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2016)

uhm photos in Gurdwaras of the Guru's
the importance of a full moon
trying to beat ones own best at recital speeds
the distinction of sexes at Darbar Sahib
discrimination of caste

I'm going to bed now, I am sure I can think of another dozen, and some really good ones, all the above command respect in Sikhism in some way shape or form.


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## chazSingh (Nov 2, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Your humility, patience and perception have always rated high on my list, Chazji my dear brother, let us all write flowery to the cows come home, god knows I am capable of such writing myself, however, let us never expect our flowery writings to be confused with truth, yes, some questions we cannot answer, it might be better to admit such, than pretend otherwise and then be unable to substantiate, in a court of intellect and logic, our own floweryness.



ok, so you go into a court of intellect and logic, and you get asked..."so you love your parents? .... prove it.."

Could you? i mean really, can you prove it...?

prove it now...here...to me...

describe that love...make me understand it....comon Harry Ji...without sounding like a poet, without sounding flowery lol or whatever...

prove it...explain it so that i know what it is...so i know what love is...so i can breath it...
 


Harry Haller said:


> uhm photos in Gurdwaras of the Guru's
> the importance of a full moon
> trying to beat ones own best at recital speeds
> the distinction of sexes at Darbar Sahib
> ...



i don;t follow | believe | implement any of the above in my life....

just like all aspects of life, Duality...there's the good and bad...

I've been to many Gurdwaras where the above don;t apply...and many where they do...


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> ok, so you go into a court of intellect and logic, and you get asked..."so you love your parents? .... prove it.."



Ah now that depends on your definition of love, I think love has been confused, I do not believe the love of god is the same as what is known as human love.



chazSingh said:


> Could you? i mean really, can you prove it...?


Could I prove that I love my mum and dad in a court of intellect and logic, sure, no problem.

I would like the court to take into account the following facts.

I ring them four or five times a day, sometimes for hours on end, not because it makes them happy, but because it makes me happy.

I think of them and the affect my actions will have on them constantly, they are in my head all the time, offering advice and help.

When I am with them, I feel complete and whole, happy, making them happy, makes me happy, I enjoy serving them and doing what I can for them, their smiles melt my heart.

They are the only people I love in this world, and not by lip service, they are a part of my mind, I can feel their thoughts and their fears, I know how to make them happy, and I know what makes them sad, they are a part of me, and I trust them implicitly (mum if you are reading this, I don't want to get married, that subject is banned from the trust list until further notice).



chazSingh said:


> describe that love...make me understand it....comon Harry Ji...without sounding like a poet, without sounding flowery lol or whatever...



I just did, the above happens to be pure fact, which I can prove by my actions.



chazSingh said:


> prove it...explain it so that i know what it is...so i know what love is...so i can breath it...



I have proven it, however, I would be a fool if I expected you to understand it, or even be able experience it, or even wish to experience it.
 Chazji, we are at cross purposes here, my main focus in life is my parents, whom I love deeply, it was not always that way, along the road many many diversions have been my focus, and now I have exhausted all diversions, so life is very simple, the way in which I live, which is in effect loving my parents more than life itself, its not very Sikhi, I am aware of that, and many would not understand it, it is not for everyone, and it only works at a certain stage in your life, the way I feel about my parents can be proven without any doubt, but is purely personal, the way one feels about god cannot be proven without any doubt, as no one knows what god is, everyone has their own understanding and vision, it should always be personal, never foisted on another, because, as John Cleese once said, that's exactly how Nazi Germany started.








Relish and share all experiences, it makes interesting reading, no one is damping that down, just be aware of the fine line between sharing and preaching, that is all I ask.


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## chazSingh (Nov 2, 2016)

Harry Ji,

none of what you wrote has given me any inclination of what love is...
What is the love that drives your actions...how does it feel inside you...what is it...the furnace that makes the train move..

come one harry ji...

describe it to me...i don't want to know what you do...i want to know what love is...

surely you can do better than that in this court of logic lol you haven;t proved or shown me what your love is...????????

describe it to me please....i want to know what it is...i want to live, breath and feel it through your logical description....please try

actions are actions...many people do nice things but inside their feelings are the opposite...

Prove you love...make me understand it...understand what it is, how it feels for you...i want to know..


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> Harry Ji,
> 
> none of what you wrote has given me any inclination of what love is...
> What is the love that drives your actions...how does it feel inside you...what is it...the furnace that makes the train move..
> ...



sure I can,  love is when you feel another's happiness and pain, and you do what you can to assist or rejoice. This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool. One can only share.
 ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥

आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥

Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ.

The Gopis and Krishna speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ॥

आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥

Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ.

Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ ॥

आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥

Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.

The many created Buddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ॥

आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥

Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev.

The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ॥

आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥

Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev.

The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak.


ਕੇਤੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

केते आखहि आखणि पाहि ॥

Keṯe ākẖahi ākẖaṇ pāhi.

Many speak and try to describe Him.


ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ॥

केते कहि कहि उठि उठि जाहि ॥

Keṯe kahi kahi uṯẖ uṯẖ jāhi.

Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed.


ਏਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥

एते कीते होरि करेहि ॥

Ėṯe kīṯe hor karehi.

If He were to create as many again as there already are,


ਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਕਹਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ॥

ता आखि न सकहि केई केइ ॥

Ŧā ākẖ na sakahi ke▫ī ke▫e.

even then, they could not describe Him.


ਜੇਵਡੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

जेवडु भावै तेवडु होइ ॥

Jevad bẖāvai ṯevad ho▫e.

He is as Great as He wishes to be.


ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥

नानक जाणै साचा सोइ ॥

Nānak jāṇai sācẖā so▫e.

O Nanak, the True Lord knows.


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥

जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥

Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.

If anyone presumes to describe God,


ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥

ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥

Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26||

he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||


ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ॥

सो दरु केहा सो घरु केहा जितु बहि सरब समाले ॥

So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.

Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all?


ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ॥

वाजे नाद अनेक असंखा केते वावणहारे ॥

vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre.

The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there.


ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ॥

केते राग परी सिउ कहीअनि केते गावणहारे ॥

Keṯe rāg parī si▫o kahī▫an keṯe gāvaṇhāre.

So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਹਨੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ॥

गावहि तुहनो पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु गावै राजा धरमु दुआरे ॥

Gāvahi ṯuhno pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre.

The praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ॥

गावहि चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणहि लिखि लिखि धरमु वीचारे ॥

Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇėh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖāre.

Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ॥

गावहि ईसरु बरमा देवी सोहनि सदा सवारे ॥

Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre.

Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ ਇਦਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ॥

गावहि इंद इदासणि बैठे देवतिआ दरि नाले ॥

Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.

Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸਾਧ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ॥

गावहि सिध समाधी अंदरि गावनि साध विचारे ॥

Gāvahi siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan sāḏẖ vicẖāre.

The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ॥

गावनि जती सती संतोखी गावहि वीर करारे ॥

Gāvan jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvahi vīr karāre.

The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ॥

गावनि पंडित पड़नि रखीसर जुगु जुगु वेदा नाले ॥

Gāvan pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsar jug jug veḏā nāle.

The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗਾ ਮਛ ਪਇਆਲੇ॥

गावहि मोहणीआ मनु मोहनि सुरगा मछ पइआले ॥

Gāvahi mohṇī▫ā man mohan surgā macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle.

The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ॥

गावनि रतन उपाए तेरे अठसठि तीरथ नाले ॥

Gāvan raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle.

The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ॥

गावहि जोध महाबल सूरा गावहि खाणी चारे ॥

Gāvahi joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvahi kẖāṇī cẖāre.

The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਧਾਰੇ॥

गावहि खंड मंडल वरभंडा करि करि रखे धारे ॥

Gāvahi kẖand mandal varbẖandā kar kar rakẖe ḏẖāre.

The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing.


ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ॥

सेई तुधुनो गावहि जो तुधु भावनि रते तेरे भगत रसाले ॥

Se▫ī ṯuḏẖuno gāvahi jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle.

They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence.


ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ॥

होरि केते गावनि से मै चिति न आवनि नानकु किआ वीचारे ॥

Hor keṯe gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā vīcẖāre.

So many others sing, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I consider them all?


ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ॥

सोई सोई सदा सचु साहिबु साचा साची नाई ॥

So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.

That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name.


ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ॥

है भी होसी जाइ न जासी रचना जिनि रचाई ॥

Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.

He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.


ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ॥

रंगी रंगी भाती करि करि जिनसी माइआ जिनि उपाई ॥

Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.

He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.


ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ॥

करि करि वेखै कीता आपणा जिव तिस दी वडिआई ॥

Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.

Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.


ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ॥

जो तिसु भावै सोई करसी हुकमु न करणा जाई ॥

Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī hukam na karṇā jā▫ī.

He does whatever He pleases. No order can be issued to Him.


ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੨੭॥

सो पातिसाहु साहा पातिसाहिबु नानक रहणु रजाई ॥२७॥

So pāṯisāhu sāhā pāṯisāhib Nānak rahaṇ rajā▫ī. ||27||

He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||27||


ਮੁੰਦਾ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸਰਮੁ ਪਤੁ ਝੋਲੀ ਧਿਆਨ ਕੀ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ॥

मुंदा संतोखु सरमु पतु झोली धिआन की करहि बिभूति ॥

Munḏa sanṯokẖ saram paṯ jẖolī ḏẖi▫ān kī karahi bibẖūṯ.

Make contentment your ear-rings, humility your begging bowl, and meditation the ashes you apply to your body.


ਖਿੰਥਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਡੰਡਾ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ॥

खिंथा कालु कुआरी काइआ जुगति डंडा परतीति ॥

Kẖinthā kāl ku▫ārī kā▫i▫ā jugaṯ dandā parṯīṯ.

Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick.


ਆਈ ਪੰਥੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਮਾਤੀ ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ॥

आई पंथी सगल जमाती मनि जीतै जगु जीतु ॥

Ā▫ī panthī sagal jamāṯī man jīṯai jag jīṯ.

See the brotherhood of all mankind as the highest order of Yogis; conquer your own mind, and conquer the world.


ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ ॥

आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥

Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.

I bow to Him, I humbly bow.


ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੮॥

आदि अनीलु अनादि अनाहति जुगु जुगु एको वेसु ॥२८॥

Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||28||

The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||28||


ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ॥

भुगति गिआनु दइआ भंडारणि घटि घटि वाजहि नाद ॥

Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.

Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.


ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਅਵਰਾ ਸਾਦ॥

आपि नाथु नाथी सभ जा की रिधि सिधि अवरा साद ॥

Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ.

He Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads on a string.


ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਕਾਰ ਚਲਾਵਹਿ ਲੇਖੇ ਆਵਹਿ ਭਾਗ॥

संजोगु विजोगु दुइ कार चलावहि लेखे आवहि भाग ॥

Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg.

Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib
 The great mystery, how can see you something in all, when that something, as in my case, as in most cases has been replaced by something else. How to see God in all, if God itself cannot be described, what then are you looking for? To be blunt, how can one see God in another if one cannot see it in the self? To anyone that feels they have a deep and meaningful relationship with the almighty, to those that talk to God, I suggest you are talking and having a deeper relationship with a small, tiny aspect of what is God, and to boot, that is highly personal, and individual, as individual as a fingerprint. The point in question is should one preach one's own understanding, I have no problem with sharing, but to stand on a pedestal and insist ones own personal relationship with a tiny fragment of the almighty, represents some sort of universal view that needs to be embraced and understood is sheer vanity, again, speaking solely for myself.


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## chazSingh (Nov 2, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> sure I can,  love is when you feel another's happiness and pain, and you do what you can to assist or rejoice. This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool. One can only share.
> ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥
> 
> आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥
> ...




ok, so now we're getting somewhere....

you wrote:
*sure I can, love is when you feel another's happiness and pain, and you do what you can to assist or rejoice. This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool. One can only share.*

so human love is something you can describe to me...but love for god is something beyond description...

ok, but 
*love is when you feel another's happiness and pain*
can you really feel someone's happiness and pain? you may see the physcial aspect of it...from their tears of pain or joy and any other physical phenomena that is occuring due to the happiness and pain...

but can you really feel what they're feeling? all you're makiing is an observation right? and then feeling your *'own'* pain or happiness....

or is their pain and happiness passing through your own being...and being shared?
explain this further if you can...

But is that Love?..i still have no idea what love feels like for you...its just words like you've said in previous posts....just words...

i want to know in this court of logic what this human love is that you're describing...comon harry ji, share it so can i can experience the love you feel...i want to live it, breath it through your logic and language...

or is this human Love just not describable...?

but in our wanting to express it...and share it....we write, and we talk and we try....we pour our hearts out and try to express it in our actions...

yet, even then...no matter what you use, poetry, flowery talk, nice gestures...a hug..
its still your personal experience...deep within, which no one really knows about...but you...you know its there...you live besides it...its part of you..its you...

if you can love, maybe so can I, and others also....something we're all maybe able to do...naturally...

therefore i don't want you to prove it to me, or help me understand it in the court of logic, maybe i just need some inspiration to help me recognise it within myself also...

And that's all we can do, try to inspire each other...hence the descriptions, and flowery language which fails miserably...but we try nonetheless 

Seeing God in all..starts with feeling that love deep inside you...because if you can Love, then so can everyone else...maybe that love is the Same within All....One...a big ocean that transcends the boundaries defined by the Ego...

so many things to contemplate lol 

Good Night Harry Ji


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## chazSingh (Nov 3, 2016)

Any luck Harry Ji in Showing me, proving to me, and making me understand, feel and breath this 'love' you feel in this court of logic we are in?

Common dude...please try, without telling me all the nice 'actions' you do...what drives the actions? what is that feeling?

The court of logic can quite easily decide that all your lovely actions are a disguise for other motives...wanting of your inheritance, or something else...prove to me that your love is real...and show me it exists...in this court of logic...i want to feel what you feel or at least know for sure it's real...and not just words and actions..


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## Harry Haller (Nov 3, 2016)

Chazji, 

just to save a lot of time, can you sum what you wish me to answer, and what point you are making with the question, and I will do my best to reply.


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## chazSingh (Nov 4, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Chazji,
> 
> just to save a lot of time, can you sum what you wish me to answer, and what point you are making with the question, and I will do my best to reply.




ok

so, the following are examples of the kind of things you write to someone that is making some form of attempt to explain or portray what they are experiencing or have experienced...
*
I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance,*

*you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof,*

*having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,*

Yet...
When it came to describing your 'love' ... the actual substance of love that you feel/experience within....you couldnt...you failed miserably.

You tried to prove your love with 'actions' that you carry out and tried to explain why you do those actions...yet this proved nothing...could be a total lie, and those actions can be based on other rmotives..*no one knows but you.*

Anyone that somehow in their lives have never tasted love...felt or experienced it...would have walked away from your descriptions, your attempt at proving it or describing it...with absolutely no idea what love would feel like or what it's experience would be like...or whether your love is true and real

Yet above you seem to think that people who try to explain things that are just as difficult to explain and portray 'like the love for your parents'...that they should be able to quite easily in this court of logic????

your words "* SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,"*

but you then say* "This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool"
*
This is blatant contradiction....how do you expect people on the forum to interact with you...answer your questions...or at least try to, when you come across so completely confused yourself?

What part of seek God within yourself...God is in your heart....God is love...can be proved? God knows all, is in all, is everything..is visible, yet invisible...

your above writing seems to suggest that everything in SGGS is factual, and can be proved...then you suggest it can't, then it can...then it can't

major confusion...

me asking you to provide and describe and show your 'real' love for your parents was my attempt at making you understand just how difficult these things are when trying to share them...
that Language / Logic / falls completely flat on its face when it comes to stuff like this..

One has to experience the stuff for themselves...and that's the only thing we can do on this journey to Waheguru...


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## Harry Haller (Nov 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> *I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance,*
> 
> *you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof,*
> 
> *having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,*



I am not quite sure why are quoting this, as it has been taken completely out of context, the question here was is God perfect if he still discovering, and I am absolutely within rights to question this as it goes against the Sikh view of God. If you definitively say that God is not perfect within Sikhism, then what, as a moderator, do you expect me to do or say? please tell me, as I am here to serve this forum, not stamp my own opinion on it. As you have taken the gauntlet, perhaps you can explain this imperfection of God to me, is God still learning? does he learn from us, his creation?


chazSingh said:


> Yet...
> When it came to describing your 'love' ... the actual substance of love that you feel/experience within....you couldnt...you failed miserably.


that is your opinion, you are of course welcome to it.



chazSingh said:


> You tried to prove your love with 'actions' that you carry out and tried to explain why you do those actions...yet this proved nothing...could be a total lie, and those actions can be based on other rmotives..*no one knows but you.*



I assume anything brought to this forum is true, or there is no real point posting, but then you know what they say, a liar does not believe anyone else.



chazSingh said:


> Anyone that somehow in their lives have never tasted love...felt or experienced it...would have walked away from your descriptions, your attempt at proving it or describing it...with absolutely no idea what love would feel like or what it's experience would be like...or whether your love is true and real



There are many different types of love, it is a discussion in itself, I have nothing against love, but your argument is working against you, if it cannot be described, than how can it be made to sound so definitive, to be honest this whole argument is moot, all I am asking is that users make it clear these are their own personal experiences and to use the words carefully so it does not sound like preaching, do you have anything against this?



chazSingh said:


> Yet above you seem to think that people who try to explain things that are just as difficult to explain and portray 'like the love for your parents'...that they should be able to quite easily in this court of logic????



We are going round in circles here, its very simple, put yourself on a pedestal and make definitive universal statements about God, and expect to be questioned, again, do you have a problem with this? You do not write in this fashion, your writing is humble and informative, I learn a lot from it, it is not put up there as fact, so why are you trying to stop me from encouraging others to write like you?



chazSingh said:


> your words "* SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,"*



again, a quote out of context, but I stand by what I said, if you insist your way is the universal way then be prepared to back it up. If it cannot be backed up then just write and share it, like I wrote and shared the love for my parents, at no point did I insist it was the only way to love ones parents.



chazSingh said:


> This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool"



taking my quotes to construct a platform to suit your agenda is your business, maybe if you ceased that and just tried to learn from what is being shared, as I try and do from your writings, it might make sense. I have come to the conclusion that human earthly love is different to the love for the divine and the love that is mentioned in the SGGS, my thoughts, my conclusion. Also note that I rarely write in my own capacity anymore, no more jokes, no more fun, I just want this forum to have some order and flow. If you feel I am not achieving this, or holding it back, then please let me know, publicly, its not a problem, we are all learning.



chazSingh said:


> This is blatant contradiction....how do you expect people on the forum to interact with you...answer your questions...or at least try to, when you come across so completely confused yourself?



If I come across through your carefully chosen quotes in your carefully chosen order as confused, I apologise. Are you not confused? do you know it all? well I am pleased for you, for me, no I do not know it all, I am confused, that is why I question, I have no problem being known as confused, I would rather that than come across as an expert. I am no expert, I have never pretended to be. 



chazSingh said:


> your above writing seems to suggest that everything in SGGS is factual, and can be proved...then you suggest it can't, then it can...then it can't



Again, if I have, I make no excuses for it, I write honestly, if that honesty comes across as it does, and is difficult to understand, I apologise.



chazSingh said:


> me asking you to provide and describe and show your 'real' love for your parents was my attempt at making you understand just how difficult these things are when trying to share them...
> that Language / Logic / falls completely flat on its face when it comes to stuff like this..
> 
> One has to experience the stuff for themselves...and that's the only thing we can do on this journey to Waheguru...



I realise how difficult these things are, but to come back to the main point, share everything, there is no problem with anything that anyone writes, however if I feel proselytising is taking place then I will comment, also note, the amount of censorship on this forum is minimal, posts do not get deleted on the whole, or edited, or interfered with, they just just questioned and commented on, I am open to other suggestions if you feel I am out of order for my query on the perfection of God.


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## Sikhilove (Nov 4, 2016)

I have


Harry Haller said:


> You have yet to answer a single question I have asked of you, you post links to websites that laud a living Guru, you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof, otherwise, its quite easy, stop writing definitively, try using the words, 'in my opinion', or 'it is my thinking', but you don't you keep posting huge tracts of definitive statements that you then attribute to the SGGS. I would be failing in my job if this was not pointed out, it is nothing personal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had answered all of your questions, you have Chosen not to acknowledge or attempt to understand them. People can only learn if they choose to learn.

And now I bow out of dialogue with you as the Guru also instructs not to argue with people who choose not to listen.

God bless you


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## Harry Haller (Nov 4, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> I have
> 
> 
> I had answered all of your questions, you have Chosen not to acknowledge or attempt to understand them. People can only learn if they choose to learn.
> ...



Are you here to impart that learning? unopposed and without offering any substance? posting links to living Gurus sites that you yourself have confirmed as the source of your current understanding?

NEW RED FLASH REVOLVING SIGNAL WARNING LIGHT MAGNETIC 12 VOLT SPARES2U  | eBay

as you have given the standard answers, and now refuse to debate a point you are unable to backup, you may be interested in the above, I hear they are very popular in India.


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## Sikhilove (Nov 4, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> ok
> 
> so, the following are examples of the kind of things you write to someone that is making some form of attempt to explain or portray what they are experiencing or have experienced...
> *
> ...



Awesome post


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## Original (Nov 5, 2016)

Sikhilove - nice to hear from you !

Remember, from a dialectical perspective God cannot be proved or disproved. Religion is something that is built on trust, faith and belief of the individual. And, you have that, all else is evolution, meaning growth, development and realisation.

We all grow spiritually and intellectually. The operative organ for intellectual growth is the mind [manmukh], spirtual growth is assigned to the heart. Alone you know, alone you feel, alone you are aware of the presence of the God of Nanak in the inner-most chamber of your heart [gurmukh]. Consider yourself fortunate therefore and pray for those who venture endlessly outward when the true journey is "really" inward.

You don't have to win every argument, just remember to stay true to yourself. It is the self that is part of the bigger self, meaning, truth [satnam]. Baba Nanak demonstrated that when he "philosophically" pointed out to  Sidh Gosht [community of philosophers] that arguments are not about winning and persuading people, but about "truth" seeking. The arguer's first obligation is to truth seeking and not winning the argument. He went on to show them that one can only know truth if one has truth in one's heart in the first place ? Asa Di Vaar captures it nicely, thus, "sach ta'n per janyia ye ridha sach hoya" [SGGSJ, 468]. The underlying factor was, if one's starting point is unknown, conclusion and intermediate steps are made up of that unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever become knowledge ?

You writing on SPN, me writing on SPN is not a choice nor a concession but the Will of Akal Purakh [AP] to keep us connected to the shabad, meaning, God.

Take care !


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## Sikhilove (Nov 5, 2016)

Original said:


> Sikhilove - nice to hear from you !
> 
> Remember, from a dialectical perspective God cannot be proved or disproved. Religion is something that is built on trust, faith and belief of the individual. And, you have that, all else is evolution, meaning growth, development and realisation.
> 
> ...



Nice post


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## swarn bains (Nov 7, 2016)

Let me my two paisa
This is how guru Nanak explains God. Those who cannot read gurmukhy just read the English words only. please give your comments

SGGS page 1035

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ॥

For billions of years, there was utter darkness.

ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

There was no earth or sky; there was infinite God; His rule prevailed.

ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥

There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat alone  in absolute trance. ||1||

ਖਾਣੀ ਨ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਉਣ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥

There were no sources of creation or sermon and no air or water.

ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥

There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going.

ਖੰਡ ਪਤਾਲ ਸਪਤ ਨਹੀ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਦੀ ਨ ਨੀਰੁ ਵਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥

There were no continents, underworld, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. ||2||

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥

There was no heavenly being, no fish or the underworld.

ਦੋਜਕੁ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਖੈ ਕਾਲਾ ॥

There was no heaven or hell, no fear of death.

ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੩॥

There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going. ||3||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥

There was no deity

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ॥

There was no one but One God.

ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਨਮਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥

There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. ||4||


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## Original (Nov 8, 2016)

Sardar Swarn Singh Ji Bains,

Thank you for all that you do to spread the word of God. The burden on part the translator is greater than that on the beneficiary because the recipient of conveyance will in good "faith" accept whatever is conveyed. Let us look at few examples:

you write...  

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ *ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ* ॥
For billions of years, there was *utter darkness*.

Here, I'd seriously question the specific meaning of *ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ *and perhaps go beyond the literal meaning [utter darkness] to take account of what the writer is "ideologically" [akal] trying to explain in terms of the *spirit* and not the *letter*. That is to say, "look people, the state at that time was, is and will forever be *inconceivable* full stop".



swarn bains said:


> ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
> There was no earth or sky; there was infinite God; His rule prevailed.



...hukam is genderless ! hukam used in the above verse is to show that creation was "orderly" and not chaos. This would effect the literal translation of hukam as "order" synonymous with and is the Will of Akal Purakh.  


swarn bains said:


> ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥
> There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat alone in absolute trance.



...the use of the word "alone" is your inference and not per verse, that's ok insofar you want to read it as such and guru Nanak has left it wide open for readers to make sense. Ideologically speaking its not. And, what your translation dose it destroys the ineffability within which Akal is. The word alone is indicative of the possible existence of another besides Akal, do you see !


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## swarn bains (Nov 8, 2016)

original jee I thank u for your generous comments. I write as per my intellect. may be it is not as high as many scholars who write about God on this site. I did transliteration, but to do the translation with explanation it takes thousand pages for one word or one line which you did. word dhandukara, means chaos, utter darkness, whirl wind, storm, cannot see anything cannot do any thing and many more as you like it. I am not a kathakar to lie with my teeth biting the tongue. Here is an example for your critique
children are playing. I am watching but I do not know how to play but I am jealous. I cannot see them playing. i want to stop them as well. So what I do ( URINATE ON THE FIELD). i HAVE NO OBJECTION TO YOU YOUR CRITIQUE BUT TO PROVE THAT i AM utterly WRONG. So from your critique it appears that I should stop doing that. But I will not stop because gurbani is multi facet. everyone translates it with what his or her mind thinks. your mind may be different than mine but I do put an effort which you also should do. my goal is that if many people translate gurbani and then we all join  and come with a common translation then may be we could solve the riddle. I will tell you here
Waraan Te Vdhik Sggs page 1410 written by Baba Nanak. Utngi Upangi Upehri Gmbiri Gehry, Sdud Suhia kiv kari Nivan na jai thani
All sikh scholars including Sahib singh and sant singh khalsa  who translated SGGS translate it as follows. They all copy what Sahib singh wrote. At least i put my own effort.
The  woman tells her mother in-law that she cannot touch her feet because her breasts will touch the ground. Do you mean Baba is looking at her breasts and explaining it so. My translation si Baba say to the young woman; if you are not humble; how can you respect your mother in law?(Please do not change it. let the scholars see it )
I give you another one the last stanza from SGGS
Sabhe putar ragan ke athara das bees. they all copy from sahib singh and write that all 44 are the sons of God. who are all those 44. when i see sabhe that means to me is all. so I translate it all are the sons of God whether eighteen ten or twenty.
So far the social scholars were toying with God. I gave what I read and interpreted
Advise with your transliteration not a whole lot of story. thanks again


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## Original (Nov 8, 2016)

Swarn Singh Ji -

God has chosen you to do Gurbani Vichar to the best of your ability and you do a fantastic job. When I get the time, I do try and read. I accept your translations, thank you. However, there are times, like today for instance,  when I feel bit of tweaking will make it better and reflect true meaning, intent and purpose of the subject-matter. Accordingly, I carry out what is necessary.

I like what you write -

Much obliged


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## Sikhilove (Nov 8, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> Let me my two paisa
> This is how guru Nanak explains God. Those who cannot read gurmukhy just read the English words only. please give your comments
> 
> SGGS page 1035
> ...



The Nothingness..


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## Harry Haller (Nov 9, 2016)

Original said:


> Swarn Singh Ji -
> 
> God has chosen you to do Gurbani Vichar to the best of your ability and you do a fantastic job. When I get the time, I do try and read. I accept your translations, thank you. However, there are times, like today for instance,  when I feel bit of tweaking will make it better and reflect true meaning, intent and purpose of the subject-matter. Accordingly, I carry out what is necessary.
> 
> ...



We are lucky to have on this forum those that know the true meaning and are able to correct the rest of us, I am still awaiting your correction on my post regarding Ek Onkar, as I am still stuck on my own meaning rather than the true meaning, perhaps you could help me?

I think they do a bulk offer on those red lights on ebay.


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## Original (Nov 9, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> We are lucky to have on this forum those that know the true meaning and are able to correct the rest of us, I am still awaiting your correction on my post regarding Ek Onkar, as I am still stuck on my own meaning rather than the true meaning, perhaps you could help me?
> 
> I think they do a bulk offer on those red lights on ebay.


..pardon me H, but I have responded ! I'm waiting for you to give me the thumbs up with the idea of a "supreme being" ?


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## sukhsingh (Nov 12, 2016)

Seeker2013 said:


> It is so tough to see god in a person who always {censored}es you offf . Sorry but thats true.


We see God in historical figures, dead people. How can you possibly not be  seeing the presence in front of your own eyes, in the wonderment of a living breathing human being, the creative aspect which is the source.


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