# Why Religion Needs Science's Approval



## sandeep17oct (Oct 5, 2012)

I think as far as I am concerned religion is far bigger than. Why should anyone try and reconcile the two. Why I say this is because I've seen people trying to reconcile the two but their attempts make religion look lame as though science is the boss and religion the clerk who needs an approval. Science itself is based on a faith---a faith that all things work in accordance with fixed laws, ask a scientist to prove this and he will not be able to so fundamentally science itself rests on precarious footing so why ask a beggar for money. Science ought only give us these means by which we can learn about the Guru's teachings and thats all that science is needed for. Religion is far deeper and far more important than science. Infact let me go one step further to say that science only aggravates our problem of birth and death by keeping us distracted as we die each minute (yes we are dying go look up a bio book). So a higher thing ie religion can never be accepted by science coz it is out of scope of science. so why should anyone degrade religion by saying that oh science accepts what our holy book says...it is contempt of the book...if you have faith accept otherwise dont....
science says if you and your friend are hungry and you have two chapatis then you eat both and let your friend die but religion says share it...religion teaches you how to live and more importantly how to attain the almighty...science has never accepted existence of God so at one end is science and at the other the teachings of realized men who have taken all suffering...i go with religion....
just wanted to share these thoughts because it annoys me when i see people trying to reconcile religion and science and in the end all they do is degrade religion....


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## Luckysingh (Oct 5, 2012)

There is no law in science and there never will be that is more powerful and greater than 'Hukam'. -The ultimate divine law.

Hukam dictates birth and death. Science or anyone can NEVER do that.

I don't have any problem with science mixed with religion. We can learn alot from religion and then reference it with science and vice versa.
You have to learn to ''accept'' and be able to correlate the two. However, the ultimate laws are the laws of God and can never be overridden.


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 6, 2012)

But the domains of science and religion are non overlapping.religion covers the mind science the matter. Science sees everything as matter. Religion transcends these limited perceptions. So religion in manner of speaking is a higher plane of thinking. Can we expect a lower thinking method(science) to understand what a higher method(religion) says.
I want to explain my irritation on a seemingly dead issue. I was reading an article in Sikhiwiki about what Gurbani says about the Universe. There quotations said by Carl Sagan were given and this fool talks in such a demeaning way about religion that I thought he does not deserve to be quoted. In that article there were statements made by Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj about the nature of the universe. I think once Guruji is quoted there is no need for reference to any idiot materialist like Carl Sagan. Guruji's word is sufficient proof and evidence.
Have a look at the article:http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Granth_Sahib_on_the_Universe


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 6, 2012)

sandeepoct17 ji thanks for your post.





sandeep17oct said:


> ..  I think once Guruji is quoted there is no need for reference to any idiot materialist like Carl Sagan. Guruji's word is sufficient proof and evidence.
> ..​


_Please resist the temptation that SGGS is a book of Science and all aspects therof.  SGGS is a teacher and includes teachings to help so that we students use our brains and proceed.  It is not an encyclopedia of facts, figures, theories and sciences.  Please do not take quotes, lines or references out of context from SGGS.  It is very tempting and eventually very dangerous.  You will put closure on your inquiring mind, absolutely the wrong outcome as compared to what SGGS teaches us.  

Many other religions openly hug such concepts of "all in the book"  through their holy books including faiths like Islam, Christianity and Hinduism.__  Guess why these are the biggest religions?  They took away the chores of thinking, self duty to learn and just provided ready made answers, promises, etc., for everything.  Thinking for self is many times harder than taking and parroting an answer provided to you.

Sat Sri Akal.
_​


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 6, 2012)

Ambarsiria ji
Did you read the article Ambarsaria ji. I bet you didn't.Here is that what is causing my heartache:
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths."----Carl Sagan
I said that whatever Guruji has said about the universe is true and there is no need for approval of disbelievers like Sagan. Guruji is the biggest authority there is.

I agree with you Ambarsaria ji but my problem was with what Carl Sagan had said in the article about religion. It appears demeaning. That is my issue. And I don't want people quoting scientists to say that science agrees with our religion and so on. Guruji's word is final,nothing more need be said after that.

And Guru Nanak Dev ji maharaj did elaborate on the expanse of the universe that it is way bigger than our tiny mind can grasp. so that is the truth and no more need be said by anyone on that.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 6, 2012)

sandeep17oct said:


> Ambarsiria ji
> Did you read the article Ambarsaria ji. I bet you didn't.....
> 
> I said that whatever Guruji has said about the universe is true and there is no need for approval of disbelievers like Sagan. Guruji is the biggest authority there is.


sandeep17oct ji you are absolutely right that I did not read the article.

What we got to realize as Sikhs is that 99.9999+% commentary or coverage by media, politicos, scientists, philosophers, etc., is not directed at Sikhism.  We are too small a potato for these folks.  They talk to Billion plus people religions or sometimes fads about Yoga, etc.

So I don't feel offended by such articles as these were never addressed to me/Sikhism in the first place.  Neither am I here to prove them wrong for something they did not even contextually read up on let alone research and comment.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 6, 2012)

I agree with you Ambarsaria ji I think it is apt that they be ignored.


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## skeptic.freethinker1 (Oct 6, 2012)

sandeep17oct said:


> Science itself is based on a faith---a faith that all things work in accordance with fixed laws, ask a scientist to prove this and he will not be able to so fundamentally science itself rests on precarious footing so why ask a beggar for money. Science ought only give us these means by which we can learn about the Guru's teachings and thats all that science is needed for. Religion is far deeper and far more important than science. Infact let me go one step further to say that science only aggravates our problem of birth and death by keeping us distracted as we die each minute



So as per you science is the beggar in above scenario. Next time you fall ill, don't take any help from the beggar(science). Don't go to a doctor who is trained in scientific method or medicine. Don't take any medicine created by scientific research. Just go sit in a Gurudwara. Let us know how that goes??





sandeep17oct said:


> I've seen people trying to reconcile the two but their attempts make religion look lame


It's not their attempt that makes religion look lame. It's the inherent nature of the religion that gets highlighted as soon as you suspend faith/belief even for a moment.


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 6, 2012)

Ya i'll do that but you see the industries technological and the like have put so much of poison in the air in the water in the environment....look at the trends in cancer patients...now the food contains pesticides and you know the correlation science boy between pesticides and pests...instead of reducing their number it makes them immume and the problem gets aggravated...and hey why are the mosquitoes on the rise and why has there been an increase in the number of disease causing species let me think let me think...na i dont see why this industrial age also has the most number of mentally and physically disabled born children....so since it causes me harm it has the responsibility to also make me good since it caused the disease in the first place....


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 6, 2012)

and you didnt get the analogy correctly....i meant science as is religion based on faith...so what right do scientists have to attack religion....like carl sagan did here....

both lack proofs of the most fundamental basis of each so why their bitching especially by science...

you say religion is lame inherently...einstein said science without religion is lame....so religion cannot be lame....had it been lame then adding a lame thing to science would not have made it any less lame....get it....the baap of all scientists has said this....so go read your science carefully.....

and i apologise for my tone...i have myself allowed a hint of condescension in my expression and i regret it...accept my apologies....


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## Randip Singh (Oct 6, 2012)

*Religion* is about Faith
*
Science* is about Reason and deduction

Faith cannot be reasoned or be deduced.


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## love and peace (Oct 6, 2012)

I agree with the poster! 
we should have faith in every teaching taught by Guru whether science proves it or not.
There should be blind faith, that whatever Guru says is 100% right!
It's just that when we realize science also says this what Guru says the faith grows, that Guru proved this already what science is proving NOW, but if science and Guru conflicts somewhere, we should trust Guru.
I agree with the statement "asking money from the beggar".


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## findingmyway (Oct 6, 2012)

I find this whole debate ridiculous. Science is necessary for us to live the lives we lead. Science has made possible the sharing of the Guru's teachings! Scientific laws are not separate but are part of hukam. Science is allowing us to learn about a portion of creation. I find studying science increases my wonder of Waheguru's creation, not dims it! There is huge overlap. I never understand why people feel the 2 things are mutually exclusive!! Science is also part of Hukam.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 6, 2012)

Findingmy way ji..

Right Ji.

Reminds me of some of my students who make "friends" and then INSIST...Dont talk to "b" because shes NOT my friend..."Ignore "c" because yesterday she ignored me..and IF you DONT follow those "I INSISTS"...she will say.."I dont want to friend you.." go away..go see your new friend..since you like her so much...ha ha ha...These people seem to trat "religion/Science" the same way....Go be with Carl sagan..since you think Evolution is so right..and Genesis is so wrong...I dont want to be with you..faithless cynic wanna be scientist..ha ha ha

There are NO such "articles" on GURMATT (Sikhism)..its the Major religions like Judaism/Christianity/Islam/Buddhism/Hinduism etc that are in the Limelight...and when the Gurmatt/Sikhism and SGGS are brought to the attention of such Authors..they have actually NOTHING to say...or what they try and say is actually Laughable/funny because they have to depend on misrepresentations.mistranslations or one liners taken out of Context..


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## sid (Oct 7, 2012)

science is proper study and application to understand this physical world and universe and to use the matters in our favor,development and against as well......religion is all about having faith in god and to spread brotherhood and to live a social life in well manners.....there are so many religions in the world .....but no doubt man of every religion uses science and technology everyday,every second.......so science and religion are different but like human tendency we will make science and religion to conflict for sure


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2012)

It would be wrong to say that religion needs approval of science.
If one understands what is the meaning of science then it becomes clear that there is science everywhere.
What we normally refer as Science is that what we have known so far thru experiments and verification of there of. Wordly science has created nothing of its own ab original.All scientific findings are RESEARCH only.
The GREATEST SCIENTIST is the CREATOR itself.So there is science of Religion too .
In fact it is the wordly science that is looking for its approval from the science of Religion.
Thus all sciences are under the SCIENCE of THE CREATOR.....One may understand the Science of the Creator as Religion Science Master of All Sciences.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## skeptic.freethinker1 (Oct 7, 2012)

Main difference between Science and Religion is the difference they make in people's lives.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes it is true that wordly science can change one externay way of living 
But internal way of living which is the true way of living can be known thru 
science of Religion only.
Thus science of religion is always going to be need of all human beings inspite of 
unprecedented technological developments going to occur in future.
There is no substitute for Science of religion.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2012)

sid said:


> science is proper study and application to understand this physical world and universe and to use the matters in our favor,development and against as well......religion is all about having faith in god and to spread brotherhood and to live a social life in well manners.....there are so many religions in the world .....but no doubt man of every religion uses science and technology everyday,every second.......so science and religion are different but like human tendency we will make science and religion to conflict for sure


 

Science of religion is also a proper study and application to understand the DIVINE MATTER for creation of the universe and know ones own self.
Thru science of religion one is enlightened to see the CREATOR and develop understanding of oneness among all.
So try to understand Science of Religion to realise the correct use of Wordly Science for every Human being.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 7, 2012)

According to science, is it better to say the Truth or the lies?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> According to science, is it better to say the Truth or the lies?


 
But science of Religion is about what is ABSOLUTE TRUTH that is GURMATi RAAM NAAMu.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 7, 2012)

I think there are some questions which science does not explore. On the other hand, champions of religions think they can dictate the morals for the rest of the world. No sense of balance.


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 7, 2012)

_/|\_  Sat Nam

There is no such thing as a perfect science.  The only thing science it actually proves is how it will inevitably take earlier proof and disprove it.  :grinningsingh: 

Scientists once said there could not be life on Mars.  Recently, they have discovered otherwise.  What the Bleep Do We Know?  That, to me, was a masterpiece which shows anything is possible, even what science says is impossible.

Over a decade ago, I would get in discussions with Christians.  I would say the Light is real. They would say its a metaphor.  People who have near-death experiences say that Light is real.  Scientists are still trying to disprove it saying its the brain's electrical wiring going haywire at death.  Then how come people have been able to say what was said and done in the hospital room or outside the hospital room?

I love how Hindus have found Jesus pbuh speaking of Light and the third eye in the Bible.  It is so obvious once they show it.  That rocks.  Praise God/dess!

I think the religions have all given clues, some very subtle, others very obvious about things science took credit for centuries later.  They may not use scientific language or techniques or call it "atoms".  But there are some things a scientist can't prove with a microscope.  

That being said I find myself in awe when I hear something on the news about scientific discoveries.  I will always be left in awe that human body is such a profoundly amazing "machine".  But I also believe science only proves God's Omnipotence.   

That's my two cents. 

Nam Jiwan

No microscope was used for the development of the above opinion.  :grinningsingh:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2012)

It all depends how one is familiar with the fundmentals of different sciences.
Only a person with strong understanding of fundamentals of science can actually appreciate the science of religion too.
One can find how great scientists are great Philosophers too.Certainly there is a domain where Science and religion seem to have merged.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## namjiwankaur (Oct 7, 2012)

Sat Nam _/|\_

Perhaps science is about attempts to prove truth, but religion/philosophy is about Truth. Sometimes science might discover Truth, but usually scientists give credit to their own science vs. Truth.

I'm almost going over my own head at this point.     lollol

Nam Jiwan


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 7, 2012)

namji{censored}aur said:


> Sat Nam _/|\_
> 
> Perhaps science is about attempts to prove truth, but religion/philosophy is about Truth. Sometimes science might discover Truth, but usually scientists give credit to their own science vs. Truth.
> 
> ...


 
You are very right in saying so.
In fact science is searcing and trying to prove THE TRUTH as envisaged 
in various religious scriptures.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 7, 2012)

Folks I believe we are confusing things a bit.

For me the expressions of unencumbered spirituality, soul speak have no boundaries in terms of revelations.  Some specific, some general and some that may appear or look like scientific discovery.  The great philosophers, the great intellects, the great souls like our Guru jis, Baba Farid ji, Bhagat Kabir ji, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc., provided expressions and insights beyond normal deduction or encumbered thinking.  That is the beauty of spiritual thought as it is not driven by an objective to prove or disapprove which is fundamental in Classical Science approach.  When you are not trying to prove or disapprove you are unencumbered like the morning dew on grass or fresh snow on a mountain.  Purest or pure expressions and displays.

I believe where through accident, love or other reasons people have tried to convert spiritual and religious writings into classical Scientific associations that the problems start.  

Examples without trying to denigrate or dis-respect the spirituality of any of the works:


It is all in the Koran (say the physiology of conception, embryonic growth and birth; best ways or only ways to prepare meat (Halal), etc.)


It is all in the Bible as to how life came to be through Adam and Eve
It is all in the Vedas how space exploration sciences were already penned,
Elephants were thrown in the air and they started circling earth
 
Some people's take from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
The constellation and expanse of universe is all defined within
 
etc.
In all these approaches, from my perspective people of all faiths do considerable dis-service to the masters or the most beloved teachers of their religions and faiths.

Sat Sri Akal.peacesign

*PS:*  Prakash.S.Bagga ji I believe you using the phrase "Science of Religion" are missing spirituality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji all together.  We cannot start changing definitions of commonly understood words like Science.  As we know Science proves or disproves through deduction, calculation and experimentation.  Religion has no need to prove or disprove as it is unencumbered thinking which was not penned to prove or disprove in the first place.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a teacher which will use metaphoric examples, analogies, and such to teach but all driven to not teach you specifics but enable your higher thinking and higher living as a result by yourself.


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 8, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> I find this whole debate ridiculous. Science is necessary for us to live the lives we lead. Science has made possible the sharing of the Guru's teachings! Scientific laws are not separate but are part of hukam. Science is allowing us to learn about a portion of creation. I find studying science increases my wonder of Waheguru's creation, not dims it! There is huge overlap. I never understand why people feel the 2 things are mutually exclusive!! Science is also part of Hukam.



If you find the debate ridiculous nobody invited you to come and participate. There are pending scientific discoveries to be made.Go help them. Let us dimwits talk this out.


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 8, 2012)

Science has helped spread Guruji's word but its not that when we did not have these fancy means the word was not preserved. It (Guru's word not science) is eternal and does not depend on science for its preservation. It is not subject to being washed away by time.


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## sandeep17oct (Oct 8, 2012)

Those who think this is a religion vs science debate please read the thread carefully or dont care to participate. because it is not.


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## sandeep17oct (Mar 19, 2015)

love and peace said:


> Guru proved this already what science is proving NOW, but if science and Guru conflicts somewhere, we should trust Guru.
> ".



couldn't have put this succintly...thanks love and peace ji


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