# How Loyal Are You?



## navroopsingh (Dec 29, 2006)

I was thinking one day about how our Guru's and so many shaheed's gave up their lives to keep their "sikhi" and now people are running to the barber shop without thinking twice or once and say...the guru granth sahib is only a book what does it care...if i here another kid say that...:}--}: 

Well i guess the point was to see how many people would stay loyal to the teachings of the guru's and honor their martyrdom.


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## sikh78910 (Dec 29, 2006)

your right, but at the same time, many sikhs who were not given the choice to keep hair while young or who did not even know what a big part hair had to play in our religion, not being blessed whith religious parents, are going out of their ways to learn about sikhi and have kept their hair for all the right reasons! lets not forget them and have hope that we can still change many things in the world for the better.


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## sikh78910 (Dec 29, 2006)

and im also sure ull find manyy moneh willing to die for sikhi rather than convert, and many amritdharis that would run screaming or convert. it happened in the gurus times, i think wed all be fairly suprised at the outcome of such a situation!


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## freedom84 (Dec 30, 2006)

I agree with Sikh78910, I think in the UK there are maybe more 'moneh' ready to die for the cause than Amritdharris. I can give an example of when there was need for seva as Muslims had threatend to storm a Gurdwara, loads of Amritdharris argued it was Guru Nanak Devji's birthday, therefore they're unable to go to help, but cut-haired Sikhs were first to be there. I know this is just one example, but in certain areas Amritdhari Sikhs feel they are higher and wiser than all because they are Amritdhari, but forgetting the Guru's message. I don't think you can blame moneh, if their parents cut their hair a few weeks after they are born, how can we hold them responsible?


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## Boota (Dec 30, 2006)

What is being 'loyal'?

The faith is shedding.

There are Sikhs that worship Shiva and the holy cow and consider themselves loyal sikhs.

There are Gurdwara committes that have no concept of what constitutes Sikhi and consider themselves loyal Sikhs.

There are parents who spend all the time in the guradwara and teach their children nothing, knowing not what there children get up to.  They consider themselves loyal.

There are sangats who go to the gurdwara every morning, arriving empty and leaving empty.  Because they go every sunday morning, they consider themselves loyal.

There are leaders who are amritdhari but are more concerned with the personal advancement of themselves and their family's rather than the good of their faith.  They consider themselves loyal.

We are all loyal to what is dear to us in our own unique way

It is time for a return to basics.


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## freedom84 (Dec 31, 2006)

Nobody is likely to come on to this forum and vote for any of the last three options in your poll. Everybody claims they are ready to die, but the only true test is when the time comes to give your head. This shouldn't be a question, it comes with the package of being a Sikh! I think its very easy to point fingers, but I think we should all start with ourselves- we should think what life we want to have and what life we want our children to have. There are people who put money, their businesses etc first, but the best we can do is make sure we don't go on to that path. 

We have corrupt people within the community, but these people aren't likely to change over night. The panth will only move forward if we give our heads, we shouldn't really worry too much about what other people within our community are doing- as much as it may hurt us. It isn't a numbers game. I'd rather have one lion than 500 sheeps!


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## J.A.T.T (Dec 31, 2006)

What is up with this whole Muslim beef?  How come Muslims and Sikhs in the UK hate each other?  Can someone please explain this to me? :{-


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## navroopsingh (Jan 1, 2007)

I guess its because of the muslim attempts to mislead the ignorant or naive girls over there, here is a thread about it

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/2046-shere-punjab.html

Apparently in certain parts of pakistan and india, muslims have more respect for sikhs than muslims because its common enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They want kashmir seperated and khalistan wants seperation as well. Both working to a similar goal. Anyways there are other threads for this subject, hope u find what u were looking for


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## J.A.T.T (Jan 1, 2007)

navroopsingh said:


> I guess its because of the muslim attempts to mislead the ignorant or naive girls over there, here is a thread about it
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/2046-shere-punjab.html
> 
> Apparently in certain parts of pakistan and india, muslims have more respect for sikhs than muslims because its common enemy. THey enemy of my enemy is my friend. They want kashmir seperated and khalistan wants seperated. Both working to a similar goal. Anyways there are other threads for this subject, hope u find what u were looking fore



Thanks for the link.


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## truthseeker (Jan 1, 2007)

freedom84 said:


> Nobody is likely to come on to this forum and vote for any of the last three options in your poll. Everybody claims they are ready to die, but the only true test is when the time comes to give your head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## truthseeker (Jan 1, 2007)

freedom84 said:


> Nobody is likely to come on to this forum and vote for any of the last three options in your poll.


Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

i agree freedom84 ji, we all talk about how we would give our lives instead of converting or what not, but we do not know that for sure. Actions speak a lot louder than words do. I would like to think that i would be brave enough to die for my religion, but maybe i just say that out of ego that im soo i love with my Guru that nothing could make me ever wander away from him... 
We should look into ourselves and see how our relationship with our Guru is progressing, and pray that one day with HIS kirpa we will have unconditional, 100% true love for HIM so that nothing could ever take us away from HIM.


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## Humanity (Jan 2, 2007)

I am afraid of replying as it may create embarrassment. I too am pakka sikh, always ready to die for panth, but do not understand that why making eyebrows  etc. are banned in sikhism. today in this modern world, kids ask why they can not have cut hair or do fashion as all their colleagues do, either there should be separate schools for sikh children where they should learn what is proper sikhi. Sometimes, long hair create lot of problem in summer etc. I have a lot to say but have no words
Sorry if i hurt people on this forum


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## freedom84 (Jan 2, 2007)

J.A.T.T said:


> What is up with this whole Muslim beef? How come Muslims and Sikhs in the UK hate each other? Can someone please explain this to me? :{-


 
You'll probably be able to do a google search about this. 
If you have problems searching, let me know and I'll send you some links.


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## freedom84 (Jan 2, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> i agree freedom84 ji, we all talk about how we would give our lives instead of converting or what not, but we do not know that for sure. Actions speak a lot louder than words do. I would like to think that i would be brave enough to die for my religion, but maybe i just say that out of ego that im soo i love with my Guru that nothing could make me ever wander away from him...
> We should look into ourselves and see how our relationship with our Guru is progressing, and pray that one day with HIS kirpa we will have unconditional, 100% true love for HIM so that nothing could ever take us away from HIM.


 
I don't think giving your life for Sikhi should even be a question! If we've already given our head to the Guru, then fear should be gone anyway.


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## sikh78910 (Jan 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *J.A.T.T*
> 
> 
> _What is up with this whole Muslim beef? How come Muslims and Sikhs in the UK hate each other? Can someone please explain this to me?
> ...



hi,

Well im a sikh girl living in the uk and i think the main reason is really the muslims collective(or almost collective, u can also find many muslims who resepct the sikh and other faiths) aim to convert anyone n everyone to islam. where i went to school and n my area there was a mosque that regularly preached to its congregation that this was the right thing to do and also that sikh and hindu girls should be the prime targets as the majority of their converts are apparently women. muslims here see sikh and hindu girls running about with no respect for religion whatsoever, drinking, clubbing and sleeping around, without shame. They have a strategy all worked out and target these weaknesses of our girls, bribing them with fake love and flattery. in the mosque in our area, me and my friends once found a leaflet stating that if any muslim boy could convert a sikh girl, or bring her to a pizza place down the road, that they'd get a free pizza! its pretty sick and our fathers and brothers are not oblivious to these going ons trust. we had the SP crew (Shere Punjab) back in the day but these days some of them even fratenize with muslims as theyre into the same things, drugs n what not. our problem is simply that muslims are generally more educated about religion, well the younger generation is moreso defintlyyy......Because they recognise that they are their only hope for survival and world dominattion in the future- theyre playing it veryyy smart. at uni every single muslim i knew either prayed from the koran or knew a hell of alot about it cuz their parents or the mosque eductated them.. i knew about 3 sikhs and hindus that knew about their religion. Im sorry to say but muslims kick our asses in terms of numbers in eductation and militancy.

anyways read this link i just found

its about sikh and hindu girl conversions- read the post by [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]*A-A-A* [/FONT]

History of the Sikhs: Why do Muslims target Sikh Girls?

and this one about muslim students converting people.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/5724-call-muslims-seduce-sikh-girls-into.html


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## riceboy89 (Jan 7, 2007)

i am so happy i dont live in the u.k.  if i ever saw these things i hear of (i.e muslims trying to convert sikh girls, getting free pizza for bringing a sikh girl to a pizza place, etc) with my own two eyes, i would end up in jail.  i have NO respect for ANYONE who attempts to "recruit" other people into their religion with bad/tarnished intentions.  

anyways, before i get really steamed, lots of people would answer yes to the question "would you die for your religion?" whereas there are few who really have enough devotion to go through with it.  thats what makes all martyrs in ALL religions so remarkable, and thats why i respect all religions.  there were far too many noble men in the world to simply say one religion is better than another.


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## J.A.T.T (Jan 7, 2007)

sikh78910 said:


> hi,
> 
> Well im a sikh girl living in the uk and i think the main reason is really the muslims collective(or almost collective, u can also find many muslims who resepct the sikh and other faiths) aim to convert anyone n everyone to islam. where i went to school and n my area there was a mosque that regularly preached to its congregation that this was the right thing to do and also that sikh and hindu girls should be the prime targets as the majority of their converts are apparently women. muslims here see sikh and hindu girls running about with no respect for religion whatsoever, drinking, clubbing and sleeping around, without shame. They have a strategy all worked out and target these weaknesses of our girls, bribing them with fake love and flattery. in the mosque in our area, me and my friends once found a leaflet stating that if any muslim boy could convert a sikh girl, or bring her to a pizza place down the road, that they'd get a free pizza! its pretty sick and our fathers and brothers are not oblivious to these going ons trust. we had the SP crew (Shere Punjab) back in the day but these days some of them even fratenize with muslims as theyre into the same things, drugs n what not. our problem is simply that muslims are generally more educated about religion, well the younger generation is moreso defintlyyy......Because they recognise that they are their only hope for survival and world dominattion in the future- theyre playing it veryyy smart. at uni every single muslim i knew either prayed from the koran or knew a hell of alot about it cuz their parents or the mosque eductated them.. i knew about 3 sikhs and hindus that knew about their religion. Im sorry to say but muslims kick our asses in terms of numbers in eductation and militancy.
> 
> ...



WOW!  

Thanks for answering my question.  

Anyway, this is very sad to hear.  Sikhs need to unity instead fighting over stupid issues like meat or if it is okay to have chairs and tables in the gurdwara.  Hopefully all the Sikh men (or at least us monas/jatts since most keshdharis and amritdharis are bunch of cowards anyway) to stand up and defend apna community’s honor and protect our sisters from these people.


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## J.A.T.T (Jan 7, 2007)

riceboy89 said:


> *i am so happy i dont live in the u.k.  if i ever saw these things i hear of (i.e muslims trying to convert sikh girls, getting free pizza for bringing a sikh girl to a pizza place, etc) with my own two eyes, i would end up in jail.  *i have NO respect for ANYONE who attempts to "recruit" other people into their religion with bad/tarnished intentions.
> 
> anyways, before i get really steamed, lots of people would answer yes to the question "would you die for your religion?" whereas there are few who really have enough devotion to go through with it.  thats what makes all martyrs in ALL religions so remarkable, and thats why i respect all religions.  there were far too many noble men in the world to simply say one religion is better than another.



Same here, bro.

I will end up spending 25+ years in jail if I have end up bumping into these kinds of people.  LOL


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## truthseeker (Jan 7, 2007)

Humanity said:


> I am afraid of replying as it may create embarrassment. I too am pakka sikh, always ready to die for panth, but do not understand that why making eyebrows etc. are banned in sikhism. today in this modern world, kids ask why they can not have cut hair or do fashion as all their colleagues do, either there should be separate schools for sikh children where they should learn what is proper sikhi. Sometimes, long hair create lot of problem in summer etc. I have a lot to say but have no words
> Sorry if i hurt people on this forum



Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh 

Humanity ji, the whole point of this forum is to talk about sikhi, and get our questions answered so do not be afraid to ask.
Hair is hair, not only on the head but everywhere, including our eyebrows. Just because todays society says that they must be certain shape does not mean its right, our Guru Gobind Singh Ji knew what was right for us when he told us our rehit. Yes it may be " hard" in the summer time, especially for girls because they are not able to wear shorts. But its not impossible, wearing cotton pants really help as well, or you could always wear a suit   hehe
But ya haha if you want a more technically reason for keeping hair id be glad to send you some links on the "science' or unshorn hair. Studying for a test right now, so once thats over id be glad to give you more info.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh


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## navroopsingh (Jan 7, 2007)

I wouldn't even end up on the 25 year list...life sentence with no parole seeing what i want to do to these "missionaries"


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Jan 23, 2007)

*what is sikh???????????/*/


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## Lionchild (Jan 25, 2007)

sahilmakkar1983 said:


> *what is sikh???????????/*/



learning, disciple, follower... of any way of life


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## badmash (Jan 25, 2007)

How loyal is anyone? How often do you go to gurudwara? Do you teach there? Can you read gurbani? Do you do community service? These are all questions to ask ourselves before any judging of others.


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Jan 29, 2007)

Any way
Gurubani does'nt mean anyway for Sikh


Lionchild said:


> learning, disciple, follower... of any way of life


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## Hardas Singh (Feb 20, 2007)

hmmm... that poll was very difficult to answer... my nature is to fake a conversion and even though i wouldn't truly convert but honestly i don't think i could live with that conviction of betraying my faith and i would have to say i am honestly willing to die for Sikhism, i do not know, perhaps i would fail if i was put to the test but in my heart i know i'd want to die for what i believe... i'm american and was raised in a christian home and never heard of Sikhism until about 2 years ago, and i finally found the peace and answers i have been searching for my whole life, and about the hair, well being raised christian i have had my hair cut many times but i have decided now that i'm a Sikh i will not disobey the Guru and i will let my hair grow as well as follow the other K's... i'm still very new to Sikhism but i hope the lion within me will remain as strong in years to come as it is now... i wanna always be strong in my faith in the Gurus teachings


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## Hardas Singh (Feb 20, 2007)

badmash said:


> How loyal is anyone? How often do you go to gurudwara? Do you teach there? Can you read gurbani? Do you do community service? These are all questions to ask ourselves before any judging of others.


 

I don't believe any of these make you more or less of a Sikh, and neither does the 5 K's, i believe the answer is in the persons heart, and only God knows a persons intentions and heart... though i do admit that we should do these things, and i would doubt someones sincerity if they did not do these things or at least try but it is not our place to judge others, though these are important things and i honestly think all Sikhs should at least try to read Gurbani, and i believe it is wrong to not follow the 5 K's, i can understand it may take someone time b4 they adopt the 5 K's if they were not raised a Sikh but i think everyone should eventually take the 5 K's because there is no excuse to disobey God, even though you are still a Sikh without the 5 K's it is still disobediance to not wear the 5 K's...


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Feb 22, 2007)

Do u know how 5k's started..
Was 5K only thing .. for which Shri Guru Gobind Singh ji came on this earth...
or there was some thing to given..
or some thing against religion ... brought him to earth..
Please answer... I will tell u hw 5K started if u dont know...


Satyadhi said:


> I don't believe any of these make you more or less of a Sikh, and neither does the 5 K's, i believe the answer is in the persons heart, and only God knows a persons intentions and heart... though i do admit that we should do these things, and i would doubt someones sincerity if they did not do these things or at least try but it is not our place to judge others, though these are important things and i honestly think all Sikhs should at least try to read Gurbani, and i believe it is wrong to not follow the 5 K's, i can understand it may take someone time b4 they adopt the 5 K's if they were not raised a Sikh but i think everyone should eventually take the 5 K's because there is no excuse to disobey God, even though you are still a Sikh without the 5 K's it is still disobediance to not wear the 5 K's...


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## amar7979 (Nov 8, 2007)

*To accuse others is a sign of want of education. *
*To accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun. *
*To accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete !!*


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## Anonymous_Kaur (Apr 24, 2008)

sir jawee ta javee....sikhi sidak na jaave !!

we r guru's children ..so y run away..init !!! 

never ever turn ur bck on guru sahib ji...dey've done lot for us !!! 

wahhhegooooroooo !!!


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## pk70 (Apr 28, 2008)

*Please give your surt(attention ) to Guru Granth Sahib ji and see how slowly over-hauling starts.*


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## all_khalsa (Feb 10, 2010)

I guess all fault is in our religious body.Our social circle is filled with so many rituals that even we do and don't know we are doing karam kands and thus shifting slowly from sikhism.The kind of leaders we have depict the kind of people we are.We want all others to do things for us and we don't want to be part of that struggle or revolution hence we watch sikhism being carried away by some thugs and we don't want to come forward.Thus we don't have inspiration to be a true sikh rather most of people are afraid to look like a sikh as to be taken for fanatic and  thug.


I GUESS WE NEED NEW BREED OF SIKHS
I MEAN WHO CAN DO EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE MADE FOR TRUTH,RIGHTEOUSNESS,CARE AND LOVE.


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## DD3 (Feb 15, 2010)

Run away and live to fight another day


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## Randip Singh (Feb 15, 2010)

navroopsingh said:


> I was thinking one day about how our Guru's and so many shaheed's gave up their lives to keep their "sikhi" and now people are running to the barber shop without thinking twice or once and say...the guru granth sahib is only a book what does it care...if i here another kid say that...:}--}:
> 
> Well i guess the point was to see how many people would stay loyal to the teachings of the guru's and honor their martyrdom.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think a Barber Shop, or whether a Sikh keeps his Kesh is a measure of loyalty to the Guru.

If Sikh history tells us anything, there were a vast array of people loyal to the Guru's and not all Keshdari's.

The real issue for me is how we treat our fellow human beings.:yes:


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## Lee (Feb 15, 2010)

J.A.T.T said:


> What is up with this whole Muslim beef? How come Muslims and Sikhs in the UK hate each other? Can someone please explain this to me? :{-


 
Strange as I don't see even a hint of that here myself? I have Muslim friends and Sikh friends that seem to get on fine.

Ahhh but then as my children insist on telling me, I am now an old(ish) man.  Perhaps then you speak of problems between out youth?


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## ballym (Feb 15, 2010)

Freedom 84 has given example andi like that. Look inside yourself and define loyalty. Sahilmakkar has also raised a better  point. % kakkaras are important but we are just focussing on htem and forgetting other things. Did our guru want us to keep 5K *only* and then you become a certified SIKH? ( as per SGPC atleast!!)


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