# All Followers Of Sikh Gurus Not Sikhs : SGPC



## Archived_Member16 (Feb 16, 2008)

*source:* *http://www.ibnlive.com/news/all-followers-of-sikh-gurus-not-sikhs-sgpc/59093-3.html*


*All followers of Sikh gurus not Sikhs: SGPC*



ibnlive.com













*A NEW ORDER? SGPC filed a petition before the SC against a Punjab and Haryana HC order. *


*New Delhi:* The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee or SGPC has contended that different sects who worship and follow Sikh gurus cannot be called part of Sikh community and the recent Punjab and Haryana High Court order denying minority status to the Sikhs was a serious error.


Filing a petition before the Supreme Court against the HC order striking down a Punjab Government notification, granting minority status to SGPC-run educational institutions in the state, the SGPC said it is a serious error to treating all followers of Sikh gurus as Sikhs.

The SC issued notices to the Centre, Punjab state, Sahil Mittal and others on the basis of two separate petitions filed by SGPC and state of Punjab.


A bench consisting of Chief Justice KG Balakrishnan, Justices CK Thakker and RV Raveendran, however, refused to stay the operation of the High Court judgement dated December 17, 2007, holding that there is nothing to show that Sikhs were not a dominant group in the state.

Earlier a group of students had moved a petition in the High Court after they had been denied admission in medical science courses in view of 50 per cent reservation granted to Sikhs in the SGPC-run medical colleges, which enjoy the status of minority institutions.


The students had challenged the validity of Punjab Government notification dated April 25, 2006, under Section 2(f) of Punjab Private Health Sciences Educational Institutions (regulation of admission, fixation of fees and making of reservation) Act 2006, which granted minority status to SGPC-run educational institutions.


According to the petitioners, Sikhs constituted 65 per cent population in Punjab and cannot be granted minority status.


The High Court later ruled that the definition of minority under Articles 29 and 30 of the Constitution of India couldn’t be overruled or changed through a state government act.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Those_not_on_our_rolls_are_not_Sikhs_SGPC/articleshow/2786665.cms*

*Those not on our rolls are not Sikhs: SGPC
*16 Feb 2008, 0051 hrs IST
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Dhananjay Mahapatra
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




TNN - TIMES OF INDIA






NEW DELHI: At a time when there is a hefty premium on the numbers a community or caste can boast, the Sikh Gurudwara Parbandhak Committee, along with the Punjab government, seem anxious to prune the ranks of Sikhs. 

Determined to retain the 'minority' tag which gives SGPC virtually a free hand in running the huge network of Sikh educational institutions, the committee has said that only its members can be counted as Sikhs. 

The audacious claim, which seeks to conflate the community with members of the controversial religious body and puts a whole number of sects - from colourful Nihangs and Nirankaris to Dera Sacha Sauda, Udasis and Radha Soamis - out of the fold, was put forward in the Supreme Court on Friday by SGPC and the Punjab government. 

SGPC and the state government, controlled by its political cohorts - the Akalis - had approached the SC to challenge an order of the Punjab and Haryana High Court which ruled that the community could not claim "minority status" in Punjab. 

The HC judgment had come on petitions filed by students who had applied for admissions to medical and dental colleges run by SGPC but failed to secure them because of the 50% reservation given to Sikhs after the state conferred minority status on the Sikh community. 

The SC Bench comprising Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan and Justices C K Thakker and R V Raveendran, which issued notice on the petitions but refused to stay the HC judgment, seemed to scoff at the arguments. 

On behalf of the petitioners, counsel Harish Salve and Jayshree Anand argued that SGPC had since its formation in 1925 recognised only those as Sikhs who believed only in "Guru Granth Sahib", the "Ten Gurus" and "no other religion". 

Though true, the criterion has never been used as a litmus test for determining who is a Sikh. Though the community has frowned upon leaders of Nirankaris and Baba Ram Rahim of Dera Sacha Sauda, who call themselves Gurus, Nihangs have rarely been seen as outsiders. 

The community leaders did not seek to look askance at Sikhs worshipping Hindu gods even after the toll the turbulent 80s took on the bond between the two communities. 

The HC in its December 17, 2007, judgment had said: "There is no material to substantiate that 'Sikhs' are a non-dominant group in Punjab apprehending deprivation of their rights at the hands of 'dominant group' who may come to power in the state in a democratic election." 

Counsel for SGPC tried to substantiate their plea by arguing that the number of Sikh electors in Punjab registered with the religious body was 53.98 lakh, which is less than 50% of the total 1.65 crore registered voters in the state. 

It did not seem to wash with the Bench which remarked that if the SGPC's method of determining the minority status was to be accepted, then the entire Hindu community, with myriad sects and sub-sects, would also be entitled to claim 'minority status'. 

SGPC and the state, in their appeals before the SC, took shelter under a declaration from the National Commission for Minority Act under which the Central government had issued a notification on October 23, 1993, declaring Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Zoroastrians as minority communities. 

The Bench, however, demurred, pointing out that the Act pertained to the areas where the community, in relation to the total population, was in minority, implying that the law could not be invoked in Punjab where, according to the 2001 Census, Sikhs were the majority. The stand of the Bench mirrored the one taken by a constitution Bench in the T M A Pai case. 

This was also the reasoning that HC used to strike down a 2001 notification of the Punjab government, allowing SGPC to reserve 50% seats for Sikhs in its educational institutions. The HC had said government should have taken the population of the state into consideration rather than of the country. 

_(dhananjay.mahapatra@timesgroup.com)_


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 18, 2008)

when is SGPC going to roll out the Sikh Card ?


----------



## spnadmin (Feb 18, 2008)

Does this apply to India only? Because sometimes SGPC seems to have governance over Gora Sikhs on all the continents of the world. And other times the issues seem limited to India only.

The Rehat Maryada and the charter of gurdwaras world-wide, I thought and could be mixed up, come under SGPC. Why? How does this work out in practical terms? How does a Sikh in Kenya get a Sikh identity? In the eyes of SGPC.

I am truly in a muddle about this. Soul_Jyot, amarsanghera, can you clear this up?


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 18, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Does this apply to India only? Because sometimes SGPC seems to have governance over Gora Sikhs on all the continents of the world. And other times the issues seem limited to India only.
> 
> The Rehat Maryada and the charter of gurdwaras world-wide, I thought and could be mixed up, come under SGPC. Why? How does this work out in practical terms? How does a Sikh in Kenya get a Sikh identity? In the eyes of SGPC.
> 
> I am truly in a muddle about this. Soul_Jyot, amarsanghera, can you clear this up?



Anotonia ji

These are mainly political issue's .In real world politics do matter's a lot .For example this controversy arises because sikhs reserved 50% of college seats funded by sgpc to sikh
students.This right is only given to minority communities of india but in punjab sikhs are not minority so some people challenged it because hindu's or any other community can't reserve seats which are in majority.so you can say that its just politics.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 18, 2008)

its a ploy by the Akalis to distract the public opinon from their glaring misrule of the state.

the public coffers are empty, govt employees have not been paid salary for 4-5 months..

SGPC runs colleges and institutions, eg Guru Nanak Engg college in ludhiana, Medical college in amritsar and many Khalsa colleges.

the issue cam up when SGPC put reservation for Sikh students.

That was challenged as the law states that the minority consideration is to be provided only if in the "region" which is a "state" the religion under consideration is minority.

Now people calling them selves "sikh" ( as SGPC claims) is above 50% in punjab while SGPC maintains that only those on its membership list ( eligible to vote for SGPC elections) are Sikhs.

you donot have anything to worry.. 

SGPC can define who is a sikh but cannot make one 

Sikhi is universal and no one can give anyone a license for it or bar anyone from it.

Any Gurudwara that stops or bars any humanity from entering and savoring the nectar of naam is as good as a spiritual supermarket


----------



## spnadmin (Feb 18, 2008)

Thanks so much amarsanghera. kdsjii too!

So it looks as if something back-fired on SPGC once again.


----------



## Archived_Member16 (Feb 22, 2008)

*http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080223/punjab1.htm#6*​

*Sikhism: Tarlochan flays govt, SGPC *
*Tribune News Service *​ 
*Chandigarh, February 22*
Former chairman of the National Minorities Commission and member, Rajya Sabha, Tarlochan Singh has criticised the Punjab government and the SGPC for trying to “narrow the ambit of Sikhism for their vested interests of controlling admissions to educational institutions by characterising them as minority institutions”. 


Tarlochan Singh was reacting to an appeal filed by the Punjab government and the SGPC before the Supreme Court against a judgment of the Punjab and Haryana High Court saying the Sikhs were not a minority community in Punjab. 

In a statement here on Wednesday Tarlochan Singh said by denying voting rights to the Sehjdhari Sikhs in the SGPC elections, the community had already shown the door to Sindhi Sikhs and members of the Udaasi sect. 

Now by saying the Radhsoamis, Namdharis and followers of Baba Dyalji were not part of the Sikh community, the community was being narrowed further.

He said vested interests were narrowing the confines of a religion founded by Guru Nanak Dev just to seek admission to education institutions. Earlier, the SGPC used to claim that the Sikhs in the world number over two crore. But the new stance of the SGPC would reduce the population of the Sikhs in the world to mere 50 lakh. This would create a grave crisis for the community at the world level in future. 

Tarlochan Singh said the Arya Samaj and the Sanatan Dharam had conflicting principles, but both were Hindus. Similarly, Catholics and Protestants and Shias and Sunnis followed different principles, but were called Christians and Muslims, respectively. It was unfortunate that leaders of the Sikh community were not willing to accept members of various Sikh sects as Sikhs. 

Describing the issue as “political,” he said before going to the Supreme Court, the SGPC and the Punjab government should have consulted intellectuals and legal experts as well as taken the MPs into confidence so that the issue could be raised in Parliament.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 22, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Does this apply to India only? Because sometimes SGPC seems to have governance over Gora Sikhs on all the continents of the world. And other times the issues seem limited to India only.
> 
> The Rehat Maryada and the charter of gurdwaras world-wide, I thought and could be mixed up, come under SGPC. Why? How does this work out in practical terms? How does a Sikh in Kenya get a Sikh identity? In the eyes of SGPC.
> 
> I am truly in a muddle about this. Soul_Jyot, amarsanghera, can you clear this up?



yes, i know you didn't ask me...    but...  the SGPC is only tasked with running Gurdwaras and schools in Punjab.  anyone outside of Punjab doesn't have to answer to SGPC.

they certainly should not be "allowed" to define who is Sikh.  they do not have any control over the Rehet Maryada.  our supreme temporal authority is Akal Takht, who technically is not controlled by SGPC, though sometimes, with all the political weirdness, it's difficult to sort out.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 22, 2008)

The audacious claim, which seeks to conflate the community with members of the controversial religious body and puts a whole number of sects - from colourful Nihangs and Nirankaris to Dera Sacha Sauda, Udasis and Radha Soamis - out of the fold, was put forward in the Supreme Court on Friday by SGPC and the Punjab government.[/quote]
ok, most of this i understand.  but nihungs?  that just seems like a bad move on their part...


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 22, 2008)

> denying voting rights to the Sehjdhari Sikhs in the SGPC elections,



where is the SGPC definition of "sehjdhari"?  it isn't in SRM.  is it any non-amritdhari?  or only those who cut their hair?  what about keshdhari sikhs who drink?


----------



## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2008)

You see why I get so exasperated?


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 23, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> where is the SGPC definition of "sehjdhari"?  it isn't in SRM.  is it any non-amritdhari?  or only those who cut their hair?  what about keshdhari sikhs who drink?



A sikh who cuts his hair is identifable but how could you identify a sikh who drinks alchol?


----------



## Astroboy (Feb 23, 2008)

YouTube - ARIANA SARAHA Wah Hey Guru

Is ARIANA SARAHA a Sikh ?


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 23, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> A sikh who cuts his hair is identifable but how could you identify a sikh who drinks alchol?




maybe you see him drinking in a bar? 

that's exactly the point.  you can't tell.   how come one kurehet makes a sikh ineligible to vote but another kurehet is ok?

what if he sleeps around? smokes?  can he still vote?

it's discrimination based on one visually identifying feature.  either voting should be allowed for all sikhs or limited to amritdharis, but this whole idea that SOME patits can vote while others can't seems wrong to me.


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 23, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> maybe you see him drinking in a bar?
> 
> that's exactly the point.  you can't tell.   how come one kurehet makes a sikh ineligible to vote but another kurehet is ok?
> 
> ...



Its that some patits can vote while others can't is wrong. But then politicians will declare each every person as sikhs and use them as votebank.Once I read that somewhere sehajdhari's were allowed then even muslims went to vote.so the other options are

1) No voting

2)only amritdhari's should vote

3)Like there is voter's identity election card in india there should be identity card of being a sikh issued by some authorities.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 23, 2008)

option 3 is what i think SGPC will comeout with

it will be a id card to get your son/daughter admitted to sgpc run institutes

a kind of exclusive membership card 

LOL


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 23, 2008)

"some authorities."

who are those authorities?


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 23, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> option 3 is what i think SGPC will comeout with
> 
> it will be a id card to get your son/daughter admitted to sgpc run institutes
> 
> ...



i wonder what will be the price of the bribe to get such an ID card?


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 23, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> "some authorities."
> 
> who are those authorities?



local gurudwara


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 23, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> i wonder what will be the price of the bribe to get such an ID card?



well then the best thing is that there should be no voting by common sikh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 23, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> well then the best thing is that there should be no voting by common sikh



what's a "common sikh"?

i think limiting voting to amritdharis makes sense, since all sikhs should be taking amrit anyway, maybe this would encourage people not to wait until their 80 years old to do it?


----------



## carolineislands (Feb 23, 2008)

namjap said:


> YouTube - ARIANA SARAHA Wah Hey Guru
> 
> Is ARIANA SARAHA a Sikh ?



I actually watched a couple of her videos.  It was kind of funny to me because I live in a college town and there are SO many kids in this town that dress like that, sell hemp necklaces on the corners, get together and thump on any kind of drum they can find... sometimes they even have belly dancers and beat drums and sing hara krishna.  They have so much fun and I love how they seem to be trying out their wings.  I often wonder how many of them are out of their family's eyesight for the first time in their lives and perhaps they came from some catholic or fundamentalist christian home...  

As for Ariana Saraha -- IS she a Sikh?

My initial reaction was -- only she could answer that question.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 23, 2008)

namjap said:


> YouTube - ARIANA SARAHA Wah Hey Guru
> 
> Is ARIANA SARAHA a Sikh ?




..: Ariana Saraha :: Bio :..

looks to me like she just enjoys singing devotional music.   one doesn't need to be sikh to appreciate the beauty of gurbani kirtan.


----------



## Astroboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Thanks Caroline Ji and Jasleen Ji for your genuine feedback. In contrast with this topic, there's the other side to consider :

"The Turbans" were a Philadelphia based R&B vocal group that had chart success in the mid-50. Featuring Al Banks , Matthew Platt, Charlie Williams and Andrew Jones, the Turbans are credited with performing the first hit record to include the phrase ‘doo-wop’. 





Response to Non-Sikh Musicians that wear Turbans​*Lakhvir Singh *Friday, April 27, 2007 9:51:00 PM 
Have you noticed? All of the non-Sikhs here are African American. Goes to show, to some extent, the shared love for the turban. Did you know that there are some African here in Kenya, known as Mkorinos, who also wear turbans as part of their religion? The amazing fact is that their turbans are tied in the same way their Sikh counterparts wear in East Africa. The Mkorinos mostly wear white turbans and some even grow their beards. They look like Kenyan African Sikhs
Dr. Lonnie Smith is one of the best of the line of funky Hammond organists that came up in the 60’s. He started his career in George Benson’s combo, before branching out on is own for legendary recordings like ‘Finger Lickin’ Good’, ‘Think’ and ‘The Turning Point’, as well as memorable sideman work in the group of Lou Donaldson. He’s still cooking today, and is the standard bearer for unconventional, musical turban-wearing. 


(Source: The journey is the reward: Non-Sikh Musicians that wear Turbans)


----------



## carolineislands (Feb 23, 2008)

Wow... he's beautiful.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 24, 2008)

<<local gurudwara>>

 which one?

the nanaksar?  ramgharia? ravidas? or the taksali?


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<local gurudwara>>
> 
> which one?
> 
> the nanaksar?  ramgharia? ravidas? or the taksali?



Which is approved by Mr.Amasanghera


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> what's a "common sikh"?
> 
> i think limiting voting to amritdharis makes sense, since all sikhs should be taking amrit anyway, maybe this would encourage people not to wait until their 80 years old to do it?



Then there will be another problem many will take amrit just before elections and later break it


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 24, 2008)

<<Which is approved by Mr.Amasanghera>>

LOL

thanks

i suggest it should be Badal-dwara


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 24, 2008)

simpler solution is SGPC opening colleges in areas where sikhs are minority, if they want to give reservation to sikhs( defined by whatever measure they want to - its democracy, they have right to define anything )


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Feb 24, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<local gurudwara>>
> 
> which one?
> 
> the nanaksar?  ramgharia? ravidas? or the taksali?




does it matter?  isn't a gurdwara a gurdwara?   as long as you have sadh sangat and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is installed with respect...  does it really matter what the name on the building says?


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Feb 24, 2008)

<<does it matter? isn't a gurdwara a gurdwara? as long as you have sadh sangat and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is installed with respect... does it really matter what the name on the building says?>>

Jasleen

this is important

what SGPC is trying to do is draw a line, the line which Guru Nanak tried to erase.

this is because many Gurudwaras today are nothing but another facet of Badal-wara


----------



## kds1980 (Feb 24, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<does it matter? isn't a gurdwara a gurdwara? as long as you have sadh sangat and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is installed with respect... does it really matter what the name on the building says?>>
> 
> Jasleen
> 
> ...



Its so easy to sit on sideline and critices politicians


----------



## ballym (Jan 23, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Its so easy to sit on sideline and critices politicians


Exactly,
Giving oneliners here is not going to work. 
i would link this reaction to our reaction to RSS article about onion/ garlic removal request
HARIMANDIR SAHIB, GOLDEN TEMPLE & THE HOLY CITY OF AMRITSAR | Sangh Parivar

. Is there anything wrong written about bhindranwale. How do you explain that. Why no body dare answer this question.
No, we should stop SGPC and politicians. Otherwise, we are just a ... laughing stock. 
I am not into the theory that he was sent for a mission by God, he was brave etc... talk to S. Fauja Singh's wife.
May be someone will find my address and come knocking?

But I know, slowly these negative remarks will be remembered only by hindu/ muslim/ christians. Sikhs will idolise Bhindranwale.
One day Badal will be remembered as great Leader.
Rightly so, people CREATE history.
What role models we have? Akal takht chief who fights about dasam granth, who does not have fives seats having same agenda.
We are doomed... already dead.
 Let us have some identifier for people like us... who are not "pure" khalsa.
let me suggest.... shishya, sheesh, seeker, onkar. Why should I identify myself with these people.


----------



## spnadmin (Jan 23, 2010)

ballym ji

They are crooks. No question. But the very fact is that Professor Darshan Singh has persisted, and there are those willing to hear him. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is still Guruji, in spite of more than 2 centuries of concerted effort to undermine this truth, and hosts of us defend it, in spite of attacks on it today. This should give you some hope that we are not "dead" yet. 

It is all His play. Only good will come of it. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦੁਸਮਨੁ ਟਰੈ ॥ 
prabh kai simaran dhusaman ttarai ||
Remembering God, one's enemies are repelled.


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਕਛੁ ਬਿਘਨੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ 
prabh simarath kashh bighan n laagai ||
Remembering God, no obstacles are met.


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗੈ ॥ 
prabh kai simaran anadhin jaagai ||
Remembering God, one remains awake and aware, night and day.


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਭਉ ਨ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥ 
prabh kai simaran bho n biaapai ||
Remembering God, one is not touched by fear.


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥ 
prabh kai simaran dhukh n santhaapai ||
Remembering God, one does not suffer sorrow.


----------

