# Do You Believe In Reincarnation Or Transmigration?



## Ishna

I'm curious to get a feel for the sangat's votes.


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## Tejwant Singh

Ishna said:


> I'm curious to get a feel for the sangat's votes.



Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Could you please enlighten me what reincarnation and transmigration are and how one is able to understand them?

I notice you write "believe" in  your question which shows that it is a belief as used in a belief system.

Allow me to give my 2 cent worth.

Sikhs are Truthseekers. The first pauri of Jap shows us that and I am sure you are aware of it that tells us that truth is fluid, hence there is no absolute truth as dogmatic religions like Abrahamic and others promise us, but truth is absolute in Sikhi.

Truth stands on its own and does not need a belief system but a way of life because Sikhs do not believe in any god but for Sikhs, IK ONG KAAR* IS*.

I apologise in advance if my post may have offended you in any way. We are all Sikhs- seekers, learners,students and we can only learn from each other via interacting.

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna

Sat Sri Akal Tejwant Ji

No offense taken - this is a forum where everyone presents their views and polite frankness is appreciated. 

This thread here does a better job of discussing transmigration / reincarnation:  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/18945-transmigration-of-soul.html



> Could you please enlighten me what reincarnation and transmigration are and how one is able to understand them?


One should be able to understand the spiritual matter of reincarnation and transmigration from Gurbani and discourse with the sangat.  Personally I'm finding Gurbani very difficult to understand because I haven't read it all, I don't understand it all, and it's very easy to make it say whatever the heck you want it to say (example: you can make Gurbani sound like it prohibits or encourages meat eating.. similarly you can make it sound like it supports or rejects reincarnation and transmigration).



> I notice you write "believe" in  your question which shows that it is a belief as used in a belief system.


I used "believe" for a couple of reasons:  1. the poll may sound biased if I phrase the choices as if they have already been answered.  2. when it comes to a religion, I think belief does have a place.  How else can you "believe the Truth"?  Doesn't believe mean that you accept the concept presented as true?  3. some Sikhs might NOT believe in reincarnation and transmigration.

Gurfatehji
Ishna


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## Navdeep88

Ishna Ji,

I've been wondering about this. About why we're even here???

God is perfect, loving, compassionate, powerful...we go knocking at his door. but why did he even create imperfect creations? us, little ants who love, suffer, and struggle. If his light is in all, in us, and the ultimate goal is to merge in God's light, why did he immerse us in this maya, this game? Is this the ultimate humility of God, that even though God could have perfection, he chooses not to? Does this mean love, the source needs to be in action in order to grow and sustain itself?


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## findingmyway

Navdeep88 said:


> Ishna Ji,
> 
> I've been wondering about this. About why we're even here???
> 
> God is perfect, loving, compassionate, powerful...we go knocking at his door. but why did he even create imperfect creations? us, little ants who love, suffer, and struggle. If his light is in all, in us, and the ultimate goal is to merge in God's light, why did he immerse us in this maya, this game? Is this the ultimate humility of God, that even though God could have perfection, he chooses not to? Does this mean love, the source needs to be in action in order to grow and sustain itself?



Navdeep ji,
The portrait you paint has characteristics of an Abrahamic God. Ik Oankaar is not a person who would play games. When you think about the universe or even lab experiments every effect has other effects that were not anticipated. Gas collapses in on itself, a star is form. This is Akaal Purakh's creation. A side effect of this process is the creation of precious metals. What is the purpose of a honeybee? What is the purpose of a flower? What is the purpose of worms? Everything has a function in the grand order (I have been watching too many nature programs lately!!). I think humans are here to realise our consciousness. It is not God that separates but we build walls ourself the way a child keeps falling when learning to walk. We should be the caretakers of this Earth but instead we are destroying it!


Ishna ji,
You may enjoy this thread, I did when it was active. It goes through the shabads on reincarnation and looks at them in several different ways. This may help you make your own mind up!
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/9096-reincarnation.html


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## Mai Harinder Kaur

I voted "Other."

On Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I believe in the karma/transmigration theory.

On Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday, I believe that when we die, we are dead.

On Sunday, I eat Doritos.

:interestedkudi:


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## Arvind

I think all of us are as old as this universe is! All of us are our own ancestors, and our descendants are again us only! 

Just my random thoughts!


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## Ishna

Way ji, that link is precisely what I'm looking for, thank you! _/\_


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## Annie

At the risk of sounding like a nut... I believe in reincarnation because I have an instinctive feeling about it, and because I have seen things. I believe in it because some of us seem to be much older and more mature than others spiritually, and it can't always be explained by our environment. My feeling about transmigration is not as strong, but it sort of makes sense to me. If we have souls, animals must too; and we must have been something other than human if our souls were around before human bodies began to exist on Earth.

Um... karma. I think it is when we give the idea too much power and detail that it begins to sound ridiculous. What if karma is simply a natural law of cause and effect? If you work to improve the world, the world will be that much nicer for you and others. If you are a jerk, people will be jerks to you. And maybe we are here in the circumstances we are born into, to learn something we could never learn otherwise.

The bottom line is that I really know nothing. I don't even know WHY our existence is so hard to understand. I can only hear other people's ideas and try to do what seems right.


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## Archived_member14

Annie ji,



> At the risk of sounding like a nut... I believe in reincarnation because I have an instinctive feeling about it, and because I have seen things. I believe in it because some of us seem to be much older and more mature than others spiritually, and it can't always be explained by our environment.




I think that you are correct in concluding that there are things which can't be explained in terms of environmental influence, and that we are who we are due to influences that go back to past lives. However I think that we need to be precise about such things, because otherwise we will just mix causes with effects which then leads to doubt and moving up and down between belief and disbelief. 




> My feeling about transmigration is not as strong, but it sort of makes sense to me. If we have souls, animals must too; and we must have been something other than human if our souls were around before human bodies began to exist on Earth.




I don't believe in reincarnation or transmigration. This is because I don't believe in the existence of a soul. What I believe is that all there ever is are mental and physical phenomena, and apart from the unconditioned Nirvana, these are conditioned and extremely fleeting. I believe that one of the features of mental phenomena, which include consciousness and its mental concomitants, is that they are accumulative in nature and when they fall away, immediately conditions a next instance of consciousness on and on, never to stop (until one becomes fully enlightened and pass away). This is what happens now and is reason why death must be followed immediately by rebirth consciousness. 

What happens after death is therefore not reincarnation or transmigration, but "rebirth". It is rebirth because what one is born as, is determined by the karma which arose just before the dying consciousness of the previous life. This means that if the karma is unwholesome, one will be born in one of the lower planes of existence and if it is wholesome, it will be in one of the higher planes. So yes, we do come with *all* that we have accumulated from the past including both good and bad tendencies. And it also means that our life from one to the next is never in linear progression, but move up and down between plains of existence. Although when born as an animal, the probability of going up is exponentially reduced due to their inability to distinguish good from bad and right from wrong.    

So I think that you should take care not be moved by the idea that at one time on earth there were no human beings, and also not let the concept of evolution confuse and mislead you. This is because they are stories only about "earth" and earth is not the only place where life exists, and the 'human form' as we know it, is not necessarily the only one which supports that particular kind of good karma. Indeed, animals share the same planet as us, but their plane of existence, unlike ours is one which is the result of an altogether different kind of karma! So we need to think in terms of planes of existence and planes of consciousness, rather than that of evolution of life in this particular planet.




> Um... karma. I think it is when we give the idea too much power and detail that it begins to sound ridiculous.



It sounds ridiculous only if we try to comprehend it from the standpoint of the existence in 'self' or 'soul'. When we think in terms of a self who acts and who receives the fruits of his or her actions and are not precise as to what it is that are causes and what the results, we will end up confusing things. The problem is not in the details, but often it is in the oversimplification. Yes, it is wrong to speculate about karma and wonder about such things as 'what might be the cause for this result' or 'what kind of fruit will this action bring', because this again is due to the influence of "self" and is blinding. It comes from wanting to know and to control and predict, and is why it is said to be capable of leading to madness. 

However on the other hand, if we are vague, this can lead to mistaking causes for results and vice versa and this too is wrong. 

Allow me to give some examples:

A misfortune is often referred to as being the result of bad karma. Now although this is true since a misfortune can be seen as coming down to unpleasant experiences through the five senses, most people however are caught up in a story about 'someone being in a particular situation'. This perception when taken seriously can lead to mistaking for example, sadness as also being result of karma, when in fact it is not. Sadness is actually the stuff of cause and not of result. And with this perception, there can't be any understanding and as often is the case, leads to feeling of deject where the whole thing is seen as fated. 

Similar to this situation is when people refer to their inclinations to good and bad and general habitual tendencies as being due to karma. This again is wrong, since karma is actually the mental factor of intention arisen with the consciousness. One's inclinations changes each time that a new action takes place. So in seeing the accumulated tendency as karma, this too can lead wrongly, to feelings of helplessness. 

Reacting to the above misunderstandings, some may feel inclined to interpret karma and rebirth, in a way that I once did. When it is said that good karma leads to heaven and bad karma leads to hell, we think that this means for example, that a good state of mind is free of agitation and is akin to being in heaven, likewise when we are say, angry, this is a state of agitation, and is like being in hell. We resist the idea that there is a life beyond this one and so the inclination is to interpret the concept in terms of what we are willing to accept. But clearly this is very misleading.

The reason being that what we refer to as being results, i.e. the states akin to heaven and hell are in reality, the pleasant feelings that accompany either a wholesome state of mind or that which accompanies attachment. And these are "causes" and not "results"! This means that in our resistance to the concept of karma and rebirth, we have come to take for resultant consciousness what in fact is a cause, and this is wrong understanding. And what may then follow from this is an inclination to judge as worthy of pursuit, states of mind accompanied by pleasant feelings, which in our case must be "attachment". And so we see people judging success or failure in their pursuit of religious ideals by how happy or blissful they are. And this is what they try to make increase which must then be planting seeds that will result in the experience of unpleasant objects in the future. And isn't this a big trap?




> What if karma is simply a natural law of cause and effect? If you work to improve the world, the world will be that much nicer for you and others. If you are a jerk, people will be jerks to you. And maybe we are here in the circumstances we are born into, to learn something we could never learn otherwise.



This is an example of what I was saying above. Surely you've heard about good people suffering while bad people getting away with what they do haven't you? So I don't think it right to interpret karma the way you have done. We do what we do, good or bad, according to our accumulated inclinations and other conditions. Likewise how other people react is *not* a result of our actions, but their own accumulated tendencies and other conditions at any given time. 

Praise / blame, pleasure / pain, gain / loss and fame / disgrace are the eight worldly conditions we all face. True a good person will more likely than not be praised for it, but this is not a result, but because most people see the value of goodness and some of them then express praise while others may not.




> The bottom line is that I really know nothing. I don't even know WHY our existence is so hard to understand. I can only hear other people's ideas and try to do what seems right.




The Truth remains hidden because of the overwhelming tendency to ignorance. To recognize ignorance is a step in the right direction. But as in the case of karma, first we must understand what ignorance is and what is it that ignorance is ignorant of, because otherwise we will go the wrong way.

But I won't start to talk about this here. ;-)


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## Archived_member14

One mistake in the statement below which needs correction.




> The reason being that what we refer to as being results, i.e. the states akin to heaven and hell are in reality, the pleasant feelings that accompany either a wholesome state of mind or that which accompanies attachment.



To be changed to:

"The reason being that what we refer to as being results, i.e. the states akin to heaven and hell are in reality, the pleasant feelings that accompany either a wholesome state of mind or that which accompanies attachment and the unpleasant feeling that comes with aversion."


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## Annie

It always fascinates me how, with religious topics, so many people have so many different opinions, and each person is fairly certain she/he is right without being able to offer hard evidence of anything. I mean, multitudes of people have died over this sort of thing. It makes me wonder why humans seem to have been created with a need to understand, but the inability to do so.


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## Ishna

Annie ji

Great point!  Thank you for being so concise.

Sometimes I get the feeling, when I'm reading Gurbani page after page, that it's not meant to be complicated, it's meant to be so simple, but humans tend to over think things with our crazy minds.

If we could just open our eyes and look around clearly without this mind layering it's own opinion on everything, colouring the world when at it's essence, it is all a well-oiled machine and we just have to go with it.

Says I... with my own interpretation... proving Annie bhenji's point...  *shuts up!*


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## Lee

Yes yes of course I do.


This is part of the reason I choose Sikhi though.  It agrees with all that I had worked out about God and Gods plan.


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## Satyaban

Yes I do.
My beliefs may not be Sikhi but I don't they differ much in this regard.

I'll start with the issue of karma. There is I believe a misunderstanding by some. Karma simply is just like the laws of motion. There is no good karma and bad karma it just is, created by the divine. This misunderstanding is a result of a philosophy of dualism, that which includes that God is in a heaven and only there, good and evil etc etc. This being the result of the illusion of maya.

Does karma have an effect on rebirth, yes. Most importantly karma has a huge effect on moksha, the liberation from rebirth. As I understand it all karma must be in balance for moksha. However probably more important to conditions of rebirth are tattvas and gunas.

This is my belief as passed on through thousands of years by rishis, sages, and holy men.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

The Sum of all parts is always ONE.. frankly I don't care what happens to the parts


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## spnadmin

One problem had in discussing Hinduism and then using Hinduism as a religion comparative to Sikhi is the lack of understanding of Hinduism... a nearly impossible task. First of all it is reasonable to argue that Hinduism and Hindu are and always have been geopolitical constructs. We can discuss this.

There is also a basic truth. What we term Hinduism actually consists of four traditions that are very different with respect to the understanding of the nature of the divine. On top of that there are numerous panths within each tradition, often tracing lineage back to a single holy man or swami, for which meanings of concepts are unique.

For example it is possible today to find sangats that term themselves Vedic. They revere the Vedas.  They also reject idol worship and take as the central creative figure Vishnu, but do not engage in ceremonies where there are pujas or artees to Vishnu's idol. Even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there are shabads by "Hindu" sants, but when we pursue the religious evolution of their thinking and the shabads included by Guru Arjan Dev, we learn that their devotion was montheistic and they did not support idol worship. Same thing goes for "karma." There are Hindu paths where liberation from 84 lakh joon through reincarnation is not taken in the literal sense.

So we need to be careful ..but we also need to be patient with others...because grasping the whole of Hinduism is really the work of trained academics which most of us are not.


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## Kamala

I believe in it because I heard about it in the gurdwara as true, like there was this story about this guy in the gurdwara who gives prashad to people and he purposly ignored one person who didn't get any and the prashad giver was a very angry person to and told the person who didn't get the prashad "stop dancing around like a bear" and the person was like "no you are" and laster in life he died and the guru ji meet the prashad giver as a bear dancer in the streets and I can't remember this part but his son (prashad giver) was there to and when the guru ji stopped and bought the bear and took it's life away as in sending him to saach khand the prashad giver's son looked at the guru ji and asked why he did that and then he explained this whole story again.. there was another story about baby crows in a nest and the guru ji told mardana(?) to get the one who creates the most noise down and he did and the guru ji took its life away ((sent to saach khand)) because it was a sikh in its past life but was a really cranky one.. I am not 100% which guru was in the first one I explained.


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## Ambarsaria

Kamala the great source of mis-information and will need to press the reset button on her Sikhi learning.  Seems OK for Hindu part.

Let us see if you can start with addressing people with "ji" and say Sat Sri Akal.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Inderjeet Kaur

Kamala ji,
I'm not quite sure why, but you always make me smile.

Ambarsaria ji is right.  Courtesy is important and calling someone by name and sticking a ji after that name is good manners.  

As for the other:

On Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I believe in reincarnation.

On Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday, I believe that when you die, you die.

On Saturday, I eat pizza.

In other words, I don't know and I really don't care.  I am too busy living my life now to concern myself with nonessentials that are unknowable.

Most of the time...


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## Ambarsaria

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> Kamala ji,
> I'm not quite sure why, but you always make me smile.


Inderjeet Kaur ji I got to admit I smile too.  I believe it is the role model of an elderly person talking too cutely while politely mis-informing.  Her Hindi is very good, she even posted it here in one of the other threads and I paraphrase, "I am trying to belittle the ignorant one" hinting at one of the respected members without naming.  I thought that cannot be a young person.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kamala

Lol! Sorry ji^2  

But this time I heard that in the gurdwara

Namashkar.


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## Ambarsaria

Kamala said:


> Lol! Sorry ji^2
> 
> But this time I heard that in the gurdwara
> 
> Namashkar.


Kamla ji may I ask which Gurdwara as there are some affronts too.  You seem to quote lot of Granthi said this, Panth said that, I will really suggest you question rather than believe if you know anything is wrong based on your Sikhi training.  If you cannot question and have little knowledge then I suggest you verify a bit before quoting as most of your post as such are mis-information or selective mis-information.  I believe it will be very hard for you to be a Sikh with this attitude to denegrade, and not even respectfully address Guru ji (check your posts where you casually address Guru ji, e.g. the Dating thread).  When you dis-respect teachers you cannot expect to learn much that sticks.

Not to belabor the point but you do not come across as Sikhism loving (not asking for blind love) in your mannerisms.

Sorry to say all that but it is good to be upfront.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:  *Nama*sh*kar is Hindi, Punjabi is Nama*s*kar.  I suggest you brush up on your Punjabi and use Sat Sri Akal instead.


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## Kamala

Well first off, It's Namashkar, because that's how we say it in Doab (Jalandhar). Also I never disrespected the guru ji, if you may use your talented quoting skills and requote me again I would be happy to reply with a more knoledgable outlook. Also are you asking what Gurdwara I go to? I just like to look at stuff more traditionally rather than American influences on dating. 

Namashkar.


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## Ambarsaria

Kamala said:


> Well first off, It's Namashkar, because that's how we say it in Doab (Jalandhar). Also I never disrespected the guru ji, if you may use your talented quoting skills and requote me again I would be happy to reply with a more knoledgable outlook. Also are you asking what Gurdwara I go to? I just like to look at stuff more traditionally rather than American influences on dating.
> 
> Namashkar.


Bhain Kamala ji sometimes I think you are young (so I don't want to be too blunt) and then I think you are basically "agent provocateur" and then I say what I see.  To ensure that I don't overdo things and that you are younger with a full life ahead of you (may it be wonderful healthy, happy and prosperous) I am going to limit how much I interact with you.

Sorry about that.

If you have specific questions on specific Sikhism aspects I will always share in a learning mode but not to say which religion is better or worse.  All I know is a true Sikh can be a Sikh and not a hodge podge of everything as that will simply mean they have not understood the Guru ji's teaching and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sat Sri Akal and good night/good morning.


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## Kamala

Hmm okay thanks you for your opinion I guess, good night too you to! 

Namashkar.


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## Harry Haller

As sikhs we are all here to help each other learn, however one firstly has to accept that one is in need of learning, and then one has to be eager to learn, once cannot help those that have no wish to learn, either through arrogance or ego, it is simply a waste of everyone's precious time


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

> On Saturday, I eat pizza.


 
Indi Ji may I suggest you eat pizza on Tuesday as you may have forgotten about the two for one deal.(Good deals are God Given)


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## Inderjeet Kaur

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Indi Ji may I suggest you eat pizza on Tuesday as you may have forgotten about the two for one deal.(Good deals are God Given)



Scarlet ji,

Right you are!  So that means on Tuesday I eat pizza and on Saturday I believe that when we die, we're dead.  I think I got that right.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

> Tuesday I eat pizza and on Saturday I believe that when we die, we're dead


I believe on Wednesday we must reincarnate Tuesdays pizza from the dead or the fridge you could say.


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## Ambarsaria

We are partial and continuous re-incarnation of all around every moment of our living and after death peacesign :interestedmunda:  icecreammunda  

Let us see if you can think about it after a Pizza slice and coke winkingmunda  :interestedsingh:   
If you figure it out and describe it here, you will enjoy everything all around and start relating to the continuum that is all around.

We are dead while alive and alive when dead just minor adjustments and recognition of all that is.

Enjoy the season.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Inderjeet Kaur

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> I believe on Wednesday we must reincarnate Tuesdays pizza from the dead or the fridge you could say.


There is none of my pizza left from Tuesday to reincarnate on Wednesday. What I don't eat,my parrot does.

Bur I still think it's better to live today and let tomorrow - dead or alive - take care of itself.


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## TigerStyleZ

WJKK WJKF,

I dont want to dig out the Post again - but I still do not understand/comprehend why so much people vote " No, I don't believe in reincarnation or transmigration" , as per Guru Granth Sahib. There is no reasioning or quotation from anyone that Gurbani disapproving the point of reincarnation.  Much people say that mostly the argumentation goes against the Vedasis at that time etc.. But where are the sources or the ANGS of Guru Granth Sahib ji?  Here are some of my views...  I am sorry that I could not post whole Shabad as I am still learning.. much to do... yeah..


I'm interested to hear the views of members around reincarnation and Sikhi.

I often reference the late Dr Baldev Singh  ji's article 'Nanakian Philosophy (Gurmat)' which you can access in the  January-February 2009 edition of The Sikh Bulletin here: http://sikhbulletin.com/Bulletins/Si...JanFeb2009.pdf Particularly page 33 'Karma and Reincarnation'.



Here's a snippet, aplogies about the formatting but I don't seem to be able to correct it:
Our Gurus used the terminologies of other religions but their
meanings are not necessarily the same in the AGGS. There
are frequent references to Hindu and Muslim beliefs and
practices as the Gurus’ audience was made up of Hindus and
Muslim, but the Gurus did not endorse or accept their beliefs​or practices. There are expressions like 
_aavan jaan_, _aavai jaavai,__janam janam_, 
_jamai marai_ and _bhavayai_which are
often interpreted as cycle of birth and death or cycle of  transmigration. However, in the AGGS, these expressions are used as metaphors for spiritual (moral) degeneration and
regeneration human beings experience in their lives or pain
and suffering or being entrapped in ignorance and falsehood
or wandering aimlessly or they represent the Hindu belief of
reincarnation/transmigration. Besides, there are other words
and terms that are often misunderstood and misinterpreted
like:​
_poorab _means past, not one’s previous life;​

_poorab janam _means past generations, not​ 

one’s previous birth, _jeev jeev mue _or _jeevat mare __m_eans control of _Haumai_, _mue jeeva_means transformation of _manmukh _to _gurmukh_, _jo_​

_tis bhaavai _means according to _Hukam, _and God’s Will mean _Hukam._

Further as discussed in Chapter 1, Guru Nanak rejected the caste system categorically, so why would he accept the concept of karma and reincarnation /transmigration that was invented to justify the caste system?​

Sorry evertime I read differnt opinions , I start reading Bani in differnt way - and that just keeps confusing me - I wouldr eally love to discuss this in depth further and compare it to Bani wth quotations etc...


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## Satyaban

I have to assume that one who does not accept reincarnation can not accept the law of karma either. Without reincarnation the only karma possible is what I call "cash" karma, like if you punch someone in the face today and someone punches you tomorrow. Peoples' births would be totally random events and we would only have one lifetime to process the mysteries of The Creator and reach salvation. The situation one was born into could be a great disadvantage on the path to self realization and enlightenment.
I believe everyone will be reunited with The Creator and it can not be done in one lifetime.

Peace
Satyaban


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## Ambarsaria

Tiger StyleZ ji thanks for your post.

I believe the emphasis or elaboration in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in any aspects of past or future is the word "transformation"  Simply meaning all from one source and all into one source and transforming for ever.

In our limited vision of creation and lack of stickiness with or understanding of transformation we try to simplify it into reincarnation and transmigration.  Of course all life is linked to each other in ways strong, weak or very incomprehensible to us at any given point in time.  In any of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji let us remember that the following is not supported or postulated,


Any of the Guru ji's or other whose bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji do not cite themselves personally to be,
Some one or something as a whole to be someone or something else in any previous time
The references are to be of one as in "Awaal Allah Noor Upaya ..."
 
There are great references to transformation of us to other things, etc., rather than all of us to transfer into a snake or a donkey
For example "Mitti mulman ki pereh payee ghumiar..." where reference is how a potter seeks out soil from around the grave sites for the best clay to make earthenware as such soil having absorbed dead bodies is more malleable
 
 
Guru ji do emphasize the form of  a human as enchanting and precious opportunity that should be given the due respect by living in consonance as a way to be so thankful and being gracious.

Citation of the references above,


> ਮਃ੧॥
> मः १ ॥
> Mėhlā 1.
> First Mehl:
> ਪਹਿਲੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ।
> xxx
> xxx
> 
> ਮਿਟੀਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਕੀਪੇੜੈਪਈਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆਰ॥
> मिटी मुसलमान की पेड़ै पई कुम्हिआर ॥
> Mitī musalmān kī peṛai pa▫ī kumĥi▫ār.
> The clay of the Muslim's grave becomes clay for the potter's wheel.
> ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਦੀ ਕਬਰ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਘੁਮਾਰ ਦੇ ਪਿੰਨੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਦੀ ਹੈ।
> xxx
> (ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਇਹ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਿਛੋਂ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਸਾੜਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਦੋਜ਼ਕ ਦੀ ਅੱਗ ਵਿਚ ਸੜਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ) ਉਸ ਥਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਭੀ ਜਿੱਥੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਮੁਰਦੇ ਦੱਬਦੇ ਹਨ (ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ) ਕੁਮ੍ਹਿਆਰ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਹ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਚੀਕਣੀ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਕੁਮ੍ਹਿਆਰ ਲੋਕ ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ ਉਹ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਬਣਾਣ ਲਈ ਲੈ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ);
> 
> ਘੜਿਭਾਂਡੇਇਟਾਕੀਆਜਲਦੀਕਰੇਪੁਕਾਰ॥
> घड़ि भांडे इटा कीआ जलदी करे पुकार ॥
> Gẖaṛ bẖāŉde itā kī▫ā jalḏī kare pukār.
> Pots and bricks are fashioned from it, and it cries out as it burns.
> ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਰਤਨ ਬਣਾਏ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤੇ ਇੱਟਾਂ ਘੜੀਆਂ ਜਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਸੜਦੀ ਹੋਈ ਇਹ ਚੀਕ-ਚਿਹਾੜਾ ਪਾਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ।
> ਕੀਆ = ਬਣਾਈਆਂ। ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰ = (ਉਹ ਮਿੱਟੀ, ਮਾਨੋ) ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ।
> (ਕੁਮ੍ਹਿਆਰ ਉਸ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਨੂੰ) ਘੜ ਕੇ (ਉਸ ਦੇ) ਭਾਂਡੇ ਤੇ ਇੱਟਾਂ ਬਣਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਤੇ ਆਵੀ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਕੇ, ਉਹ ਮਿੱਟੀ, ਮਾਨੋ) ਸੜਦੀ ਹੋਈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ,
> 
> ਜਲਿਜਲਿਰੋਵੈਬਪੁੜੀਝੜਿਝੜਿਪਵਹਿਅੰਗਿਆਰ॥
> जलि जलि रोवै बपुड़ी झड़ि झड़ि पवहि अंगिआर ॥
> Jal jal rovai bapuṛī jẖaṛ jẖaṛ pavėh angi▫ār.
> The poor clay burns, burns and weeps, as the fiery coals fall upon it.
> ਗਰੀਬ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਮੱਚਦੀ ਅਤੇ ਰੋਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸੜਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਕੋਲੇ ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਡਿੱਗ ਡਿੱਗ ਪੈਦੇ ਹਨ।
> ਜਲਿ ਜਲਿ = ਸੜ ਸੜ ਕੇ। ਪਵਹਿ = (ਭੁੰਞੇ) ਡਿਗਦੇ ਹਨ।
> ਸੜ ਕੇ ਵਿਚਾਰੀ ਰੋਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਅੰਗਿਆਰੇ ਝੜ ਝੜ ਕੇ ਡਿਗਦੇ ਹਨ,
> 
> ਨਾਨਕਜਿਨਿਕਰਤੈਕਾਰਣੁਕੀਆਸੋਜਾਣੈਕਰਤਾਰੁ॥੨॥
> नानक जिनि करतै कारणु कीआ सो जाणै करतारु ॥२॥
> Nānak jin karṯai kāraṇ kī▫ā so jāṇai karṯār. ||2||
> O Nanak, the Creator created the creation; the Creator Lord alone knows. ||2||
> ਨਾਨਕ, ਕੇਵਲ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ, ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ਹੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਾੜਨਾ ਚੰਗਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਦੱਬਣਾ।
> ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰਤੈ = ਜਿਸ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨੇ। ਕਾਰਣੁ = ਜਗਤ ਦੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
> (ਪਰ ਨਿਜਾਤ ਜਾਂ ਦੋਜ਼ਕ ਦਾ ਮੁਰਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਦੇ ਸਾੜਨ ਜਾਂ ਦੱਬਣ ਨਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ), ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਿਸ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨੇ ਜਗਤ ਦੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਚੀ ਹੈ, ਉਹ (ਅਸਲ ਭੇਦ ਨੂੰ) ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨॥


In the above there is categorical denial as to someone as a whole becoming something alive and different and just re-incarnating or trans-migrating.



> ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ॥
> प्रभाती ॥
> Parbẖāṯī.
> Prabhaatee:
> ਅਵਲਿਅਲਹਨੂਰੁਉਪਾਇਆਕੁਦਰਤਿਕੇਸਭਬੰਦੇ॥
> अवलि अलह नूरु उपाइआ कुदरति के सभ बंदे ॥
> Aval alah nūr upā▫i▫ā kuḏraṯ ke   sabẖ banḏe.
> First, Allah created   the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
> ਏਕਨੂਰਤੇਸਭੁਜਗੁਉਪਜਿਆਕਉਨਭਲੇਕੋਮੰਦੇ॥੧॥
> एक नूर ते सभु जगु उपजिआ कउन भले को मंदे ॥१॥
> Ėk nūr ṯe sabẖ jag upji▫ā ka▫un   bẖale ko manḏe. ||1||
> From the One Light, the   entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||



http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1349&punjabi=t&id=57706#l57706

Again in the above reference is of one that one comes from.  There is no higher, lower, better or worse but simply transformed or created out of one.  The uniqueness of anyone is only that they all come from one and rest are perceptions along a transformation path that is endless without human defined rules or boxes of souls, bodies or pre-defined or destined paths or shapes.

I hope the above adds to the dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Satyaban ji thanks for your post.





Satyaban said:


> I have to assume that one who does not accept reincarnation can not accept the law of karma either.


_What is your understanding of Karma in the context of reincarnation?  I do not believe that there needs to be a 1 to 1 mapping between Karma as generally understood or as re-incarnation generally understood.  In Sikhism there is reference to "sow so shall you reap" but it is not a 1 to 1 mapping in like or in kind but a holistic view of confluence of how you act will make you._



> "Without reincarnation the only karma possible is what I call "cash" karma, like if you punch someone in the face today and someone punches you tomorrow."


_Sikhism does not espouse your referred "Cash Karma" either.  The generally "eye for an eye" and "tooth for a tooth" as in Islam or perhaps other Karmic doctrines. _



> Peoples' births would be totally random events and we would only have one lifetime to process the mysteries of The Creator and reach salvation.


_Recognizing all the ways of the creator or creation is not an achievable goal either set or sought in Sikhism.  Rather living in consonance at the times of your life is the only encouraged path.  Consonance based on most understanding of creator and creation is encouraged but absolute knowledge or knowing neither sought nor encouraged to be sought for practical Sikh living.  It is identified as a self defeating goal not worthy of setting._


Satyaban said:


> The situation one was born into could be a great disadvantage on the path to self realization and enlightenment.


_I find this as abhorrent as you or me are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by birth to live in consonance with the creator or creation.  This line of thought has created too much ill and misery in the world through class systems, the haves and have-nots by birth, and so on. 
_


Satyaban said:


> I believe everyone will be reunited with The Creator and it can not be done in one lifetime.


_In Sikhism you are not un-merged from creator or the creation.  It is simply one’s level of understanding that is amiss.One does not glow in the dark when one enlightens oneself.  One simply removes darkness on t__he inside.  One simply starts to see it all more clearly.  In such a state one does not become higher or lower, etc., compared to anyone else either._

  I welcome comments.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Sherdil

Tigerstylez ji quoted in his post that the Gurus used examples from different religious beliefs, but in a different context, depending on if they were trying to reach a Hindu or Muslim audience. I agree with that. 

Moreover, the mind is the one that commits sins and reaps bad karma. Then why is the soul made to suffer for the sins of the mind? Doesn't make sense to me, and I don't think this is what our Gurus thought either. They said that we have to conquer the 5 thieves, and they reside in our mind. They make up our thought process. 

Also, how does a tiger, or any other animal attain good karma or bad karma? Which life-form is above and below a tiger? I once heard someone say that if you think of money before you die, you will come back as a snake. Does that mean that all snakes are greedy? If I place some money before a snake, will it ask me for more?


----------



## Satyaban

Ambarsaria Namaste

I believe that karma has a considerable influence situations at birth both to keep balance and for the evolution of the soul. For instance some who was irresponsible with their wealth may be born poor in the next life also I believe that some karma can not be balanced in one lifetime like that of a murderer or child molester. Not necessarily an eye for an eye but life experiences to also evolve spiritually. 

 We can not learn all the ways of The Creator but through with more intimate contact we live a more spiritual life and by that our karma comes into balance Sri Parmahansaramakrishna said we should experience all religions.

Situations of birth has much to do with where one continues on their spiritual path as all are on a spiritual path.

I believe that The Creator is in everything and everyone as the spark is still a part of the fire. The ocean's spray is still apart of the ocean. In essence we are The Creator and when all karma is resolved we will merge back with The Creator who I call Shiva.

This is what I believe

Thank you for this conversation.

Satyaban


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## Satyaban

Sherdil said:


> Tigerstylez ji quoted in his post that the Gurus used examples from different religious beliefs, but in a different context, depending on if they were trying to reach a Hindu or Muslim audience. I agree with that.
> 
> Moreover, the mind is the one that commits sins and reaps bad karma. Then why is the soul made to suffer for the sins of the mind? Doesn't make sense to me, and I don't think this is what our Gurus thought either. They said that we have to conquer the 5 thieves, and they reside in our mind. They make up our thought process.
> 
> Also, how does a tiger, or any other animal attain good karma or bad karma? Which life-form is above and below a tiger? I once heard someone say that if you think of money before you die, you will come back as a snake. Does that mean that all snakes are greedy? If I place some money before a snake, will it ask me for more?


 
There no "good" karma or "bad" it is something that has to be kept in balance. Good and bad are perspectives only on this temporal plane and whether you consider an event or thought good or bad is determined by your perspective in Maya. Everyone does what they think is in their own best interest so what one person may think is good you nay think is bad.

If you are really interested I would suggest you visit a reputable website.


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## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> There no "good" karma or "bad" it is something that has to be kept in balance. Good and bad are perspectives only on this temporal plane and whether you consider an event or thought good or bad is determined by your perspective in Maya. Everyone does what they think is in their own best interest so what one person may think is good you nay think is bad.
> 
> If you are really interested I would suggest you visit a reputable website.



I understand Maya enough to know that good and bad are qualities we attribute to something, and not inherent to that something. This is taught in GGS. 

By good karma, I was referring to that which brings you closer to liberation. By bad karma, I meant the opposite. 

I'm sure you would agree that it is "good" to move closer to liberation, and it is "bad" to move farther away from liberation.


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## Satyaban

^

Sure I agree to that. 
But perhaps you have a different way of understanding why babies are born with defects, crippled or die at an early age.


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## Satyaban

Where has my signature gone?


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## Satyaban

How about this time?


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## Harry Haller

Satyaban said:


> ^
> 
> Sure I agree to that.
> But perhaps you have a different way of understanding why babies are born with defects, crippled or die at an early age.



ahh that's a different sphere altogether, in Sikhism, we file that under the medical department, it has nothing to do with God or religion, in my opinion


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

One may say anyway..and be in doaba or timbuktoo...PUNJABI is PUNJABI and its NAMASkaar in PUNJABI.  There is no SH...its just  a S...0


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## Brother Onam

Archived_member14 said:


> One mistake in the statement below which needs correction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be changed to:
> 
> "The reason being that what we refer to as being results, i.e. the states akin to heaven and hell are in reality, the pleasant feelings that accompany either a wholesome state of mind or that which accompanies attachment and the unpleasant feeling that comes with aversion."



*Paji, you know you can go back and edit the original post (correct it at its source)*


----------



## Brother Onam

Kamala said:


> I believe in it because I heard about it in the gurdwara as true, like there was this story about this guy in the gurdwara who gives prashad to people and he purposly ignored one person who didn't get any and the prashad giver was a very angry person to and told the person who didn't get the prashad "stop dancing around like a bear" and the person was like "no you are" and laster in life he died and the guru ji meet the prashad giver as a bear dancer in the streets and I can't remember this part but his son (prashad giver) was there to and when the guru ji stopped and bought the bear and took it's life away as in sending him to saach khand the prashad giver's son looked at the guru ji and asked why he did that and then he explained this whole story again.. there was another story about baby crows in a nest and the guru ji told mardana(?) to get the one who creates the most noise down and he did and the guru ji took its life away ((sent to saach khand)) because it was a sikh in its past life but was a really cranky one.. I am not 100% which guru was in the first one I explained.



With all due respect, sister, please consider punctuation and paragraphs!


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## Harry Haller

Brother Onam said:


> With all due respect, sister, please consider punctuation and paragraphs!



oh and content! lol


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## Satyaban

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> One may say anyway..and be in doaba or timbuktoo...PUNJABI is PUNJABI and its NAMASkaar in PUNJABI. There is no SH...its just a S...0


 
Lord Shiva's name is spelled both ways I would leave out the "h" if I could use the proper accent mark. "Namaste" is perfectly serviceable.
Just sayin.


----------



## Satyaban

harry haller said:


> ahh that's a different sphere altogether, in Sikhism, we file that under the medical department, it has nothing to do with God or religion, in my opinion


 
So you consider it to be random from an non-caring god with no purpose. There has to be more to life. Anyway what you or I believe does not change reality.


----------



## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> So you consider it to be random from an non-caring god with no purpose. There has to be more to life. Anyway what you or I believe does not change reality.



Hukam bro. Hukmay andar sabh ko, bahar Hukam nah kohi. This means everything is dictated by the natural law. Nothing falls outside of it. 

Guru Nanak, panna 7:

aakhan jor chupai neh jor ||
jor n ma(n)gan dhaen n jor ||
jor n jeevan maran neh jor ||
jor n raaj maal man sor ||
jor n surathee giaan veechaar ||
jor n jugathee shhuttai sa(n)saar ||
jis hathh jor kar vaekhai soe ||
naanak outham neech n koe ||33||

No power to speak, no power to keep silent.
No power to beg, no power to give.
No power to live, no power to die.
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.
No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.
No power to find the way to escape from the world.
He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.
O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

Why would God make people disabled for bad karma, if it was never in their control? We are all puppets on a string. He is the puppet master.


----------



## Sherdil

Also, remember if there really is no "good" and "bad", then the system of reward and punishment doesn't exist. 

There is only action and reaction. That's why Buddhists think that by not acting, they can do no harm. 

Sikhi isn't about getting a reward. It's about finding a greater purpose in life, by focusing on things that matter and cutting out the nonsense that doesn't matter.

We are all in our boats, trying to cross the world ocean. If we help each other along, and don't try to rock each other's boats, then the journey is that much better. You feelz?


----------



## Satyaban

That is what karma is a natural law of cause and effect. There is no good or bad there just is and as I said how we characterize our view of events is driven by our attachments to this temporal plane, a plane that is always changing and not permanent. This is not the absolute reality but has a purpose. This is what I believe


----------



## Harry Haller

Satyaban said:


> So you consider it to be random from an non-caring god with no purpose. There has to be more to life. Anyway what you or I believe does not change reality.




non caring, purpose, random, are words that we use as humans to describe human events, I do believe that the God I follow falls outside these qualities, including all compassing love, punishment, reward, 

The God I believe in has qualities I am unable to comprehend or describe, other than the limited information given in Mool Mantra.

Everything that occurs is completely in tandem with natural law, nature and science. We make our own karma by the actions we take, the words we speak, and the thoughts we have.

I realise I have misused the word karma, but that is the only meaning I am able to embrace, instant karma!. Drink during pregnancy, carry a bad gene, or just plain circumstance, but thats where your ill babies come from. 

I do not recognise a God whom punishes people without the benefit of the memory that caused the crime. It is like a bad film, erase the memory before the punishment, so lets say I am a quadraplegic, my punishment is very real, the reasons for, to me, do not exist, what can I learn from this?

Guru Nanakji simplified this, live by the truth, become a Khalsa, and thats it. Sure saves time........


----------



## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> That is what karma is a natural law of cause and effect. There is no good or bad there just is and as I said how we characterize our view of events is driven by our attachments to this temporal plane, a plane that is always changing and not permanent. This is not the absolute reality but has a purpose. This is what I believe




Then we are in agreement. However, in your previous statement you said people have birth defects due to their previous karma. 

How does one make this link? The mind has no recollection of past lives, yet the soul is made to suffer. Doesn't this create an imperfection in your view of the natural law? 

If the soul plays no part in actions and reactions, then there is no purpose of a soul. It might as well not exist. If that is the case, then there is no credence to the notion that we attain our bodies based on our previous life actions.

You said that lack of this system would mean that god doesn't care and we have no purpose. But then why don't we remember what we did? It seems cruel to give a punishment, when person doesn't even know what they did.


----------



## Sherdil

Harry ji brings up another point:

What if the mother is an alcoholic and a druggy? Isn't it then her fault for her baby's defect? 

My take is that who we are is based on the meeting between our parents. If they never found each other, then we wouldn't be here. There never was another me and there never will be one in the future.

Now is my one and only chance to realize Ik Oankaar.


----------



## Sherdil

harry haller said:


> non caring, purpose, random, are words that we use as humans to describe human events, I do believe that the God I follow falls outside these qualities, including all compassing love, punishment, reward,
> 
> The God I believe in has qualities I am unable to comprehend or describe, other than the limited information given in Mool Mantra.
> 
> Everything that occurs is completely in tandem with natural law, nature and science. We make our own karma by the actions we take, the words we speak, and the thoughts we have.
> 
> I realise I have misused the word karma, but that is the only meaning I am able to embrace, instant karma!. Drink during pregnancy, carry a bad gene, or just plain circumstance, but thats where your ill babies come from.
> 
> I do not recognise a God whom punishes people without the benefit of the memory that caused the crime. It is like a bad film, erase the memory before the punishment, so lets say I am a quadraplegic, my punishment is very real, the reasons for, to me, do not exist, what can I learn from this?
> 
> Guru Nanakji simplified this, live by the truth, become a Khalsa, and thats it. Sure saves time........



Harry ji, have you seen the film "Memento".

The main character keeps reliving his hell because he can't remember what he did.

no, I have not, but I will look it up!


----------



## Ishna

Memento is a pretty good, if a tad mind-bending, film.


----------



## Satyaban

Sherdil said:


> Then we are in agreement. However, in your previous statement you said people have birth defects due to their previous karma.
> 
> How does one make this link? The mind has no recollection of past lives, yet the soul is made to suffer. Doesn't this create an imperfection in your view of the natural law?
> 
> If the soul plays no part in actions and reactions, then there is no purpose of a soul. It might as well not exist. If that is the case, then there is no credence to the notion that we attain our bodies based on our previous life actions.
> 
> You said that lack of this system would mean that god doesn't care and we have no purpose. But then why don't we remember what we did? It seems cruel to give a punishment, when person doesn't even know what they did.


 
I have not used the word punishment. Karma is a natural law which always works toward balance. The conscious mind we are communicating with has no memory.

I believe our purpose is for the atman to reunite with The Creator and the purpose of karma is to cause our atman to mature and evolve not as punishment.

As an example 2 years ago my apartment was consumed by fire along with most of what I owned. I almost welcomed it because I knew it was bringing my karma back towards being balanced.

My point is that some karma cannot be balanced in one lifetime, we continue rebirth until all karma is resolved. This happens by living increasingly more spiritual lives.

This is what I believe. I am not trying to convert you and I hope you are not doing that to me.


----------



## Satyaban

Sherdil said:


> Harry ji brings up another point:
> 
> What if the mother is an alcoholic and a druggy? Isn't it then her fault for her baby's defect?
> 
> My take is that who we are is based on the meeting between our parents. If they never found each other, then we wouldn't be here. There never was another me and there never will be one in the future.
> 
> Now is my one and only chance to realize Ik Oankaar.


 
Why was the baby born to such a mother? Karma


----------



## Ishna

Respectfully, biology.


----------



## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> I have not used the word punishment. Karma is a natural law which always works toward balance. The conscious mind we are communicating with has no memory.
> 
> I believe our purpose is for the atman to reunite with The Creator and the purpose of karma is to cause our atman to mature and evolve not as punishment.
> 
> As an example 2 years ago my apartment was consumed by fire along with most of what I owned. I almost welcomed it because I knew it was bringing my karma back towards being balanced.
> 
> My point is that some karma cannot be balanced in one lifetime, we continue rebirth until all karma is resolved. This happens by living increasingly more spiritual lives.
> 
> This is what I believe. I am not trying to convert you and I hope you are not doing that to me.



Hey, I'm sorry about the fire in your apartment. I'm not trying to convert you. We're just having a discussion on Dharma, like people used to do in India. 

So you are looking at it like an equation. I'm not sure if you are familiar with chemistry....but if product is more than reactants, then the reaction will proceed towards the reactants side, until the concentrations of both reach an equilibrium. That sounds like what you are saying. 

I will disagree that all karma cannot be resolved in one lifetime. Say a murderer decided to follow a spiritual path. Can he not attain jivan mukhti? People do not find the path if it is not pre-ordained. Their destiny has been written long ago.

We have less control over it than we think. It is ego that makes the atman think of itself as separate from the supreme Brahman. In reality, we are the same and our actions are one in the same. This is why our actions cannot go against Hukam. 

My two cents


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## Sherdil

Here is the conundrum: 

We reap what we sow, but we cannot act against God's will. 

We see the universe as God's creation, and God wills the movement of the heavens. Are we not also part of this universe? Does He not also will our movements? 

In the Matrix, Neo meets the Architect who explains to him that "choice" was built into the Matrix to allow the people to feel like they had some control. In actuality, the choices they made were the ones they were pre-ordained to make.


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## Harry Haller

Satyaban said:


> I have not used the word punishment. Karma is a natural law which always works toward balance. The conscious mind we are communicating with has no memory.
> 
> I believe our purpose is for the atman to reunite with The Creator and the purpose of karma is to cause our atman to mature and evolve not as punishment.
> 
> As an example 2 years ago my apartment was consumed by fire along with most of what I owned. I almost welcomed it because I knew it was bringing my karma back towards being balanced.
> 
> My point is that some karma cannot be balanced in one lifetime, we continue rebirth until all karma is resolved. This happens by living increasingly more spiritual lives.
> 
> This is what I believe. I am not trying to convert you and I hope you are not doing that to me.



The problem here is that Sikhism has about as much in common with Hinduism, as a journey to London has with a journey to Manchester, yes they involve roads, cars, traffic, but the destinations are completely different. You want to go to Manchester, I want to go to London, yes we can compare driving styles, cars, roads, but it is pointless me ringing you up about jams on the A12 as it is you telling me the M6 is blocked. 

I have two puppies, Rory and Bran, well they are nearly two now, but still puppies to me, last year, wife came down to find Brans jaw twisted round Rorys collar, Rory was blue and Brans jaw was covered in blood, after much struggle, Rory flopped on the floor, dead. My wife did not 'almost welcome' this, nor did she accept it as karma, she grabbed Rory and pounded his heart and gave mouth to mouth until he came back, I arrived just as he was sitting up. 

 That I could see this as a bit of bad karma out of the way is alien to me, its my dog, my baby, what sort of God punishes a woman by making her baby ill, its almost pythonesque, so your baby is ill, but its ok, you got rid of some bad karma, and it definitely had nothing to do with the bottle wine you drank ever day during pregnancy, nor the 20 cigs daily. Nope its definitely something you did a few lifetimes ago!

Life is hard, complicated, its hard doing the right thing, you get to see every day whether you made the right decisions yesterday, you get to see a pattern, the more truth you live by, the better things get, the thought that some celestial being is playing with me, punishing me, burning my flat down, has no place in Sikhism, in my view. 

I go to London every week, its closer than Manchester, but I hope you enjoy Manchester


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## angrisha

Sherdil said:


> Here is the conundrum:
> 
> We reap what we sow, but we cannot act against God's will.
> 
> We see the universe as God's creation, and God wills the movement of the heavens. Are we not also part of this universe? Does He not also will our movements?
> 
> In the Matrix, Neo meets the Architect who explains to him that "choice" was built into the Matrix to allow the people to feel like they had some control. In actuality, the choices they made were the ones they were pre-ordained to make.



I think Hukam and Karma are two very different concepts. (Im also not sure if I believe in Karma/reincarnation) 

Heres a question for you then, if we dont have a choice/were per-ordanined to make the choices we do... then why does it really matter about Karma? 

Things will happen weather you act 'good' or not. There are plenty of people who act 'good' their whole lives and still have horrible things happen to them, just like examples before about innocents placed in bad situations .... 

Its all about your own perception, were limited we have no idea what good/bad etc is.. IMO everyone has challenges some we just see better than others. (no karma involved, Sukhmani Sahib Says: Jo Jo hoay soi sukh manai)


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## Sherdil

That's the logical conclusion then isn't it? 

Although, we can't write off karma. It is mentioned over and over in GGS.

I think the next step is to determine how a Sikh attains good karma. It's not the same as what Hindus and Buddhists believe. Reincarnation or not, the point is still valid for this life. 

Hukam razai chalna, Nanak likhaya naal.

My take is that we can think against Hukam, but we can't act against Hukam. As long as our thinking isn't aligned with Hukam, we suffer. 

If we are one with Hukam, then we are one with God.

@angrisha...forgot to quote


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## Harry Haller

> Although, we can't write off karma. It is mentioned over and over in GGS.



as are many Hindu Gods, spirits, ghosts, concepts of reincarnation, lust etc etc

many many things are mentioned over and over in the SGGS...


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## Inderjeet Kaur

harry haller said:


> as are many Hindu Gods, spirits, ghosts, concepts of reincarnation, lust etc etc
> 
> many many things are mentioned over and over in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...



Gurbani is poetry.  And as is the case with all poetry, what it means is hidden inside what it says.

That is one reason that Sikh Fundamentalism/Literalism is nonsensical.


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## Sherdil

harry haller said:


> as are many Hindu Gods, spirits, ghosts, concepts of reincarnation, lust etc etc
> 
> many many things are mentioned over and over in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...



I think it has been framed in a new context. 

A thief may find himself in prison. It's his own actions that put him there. 

But then we can't act against Hukam. So it was his destiny to end up in prison. 

I think coming to terms with your current predicament brings peace, and learning from past actions then prevents you from making those same mistakes again. 

As mortals bound by kal (time) we can only move forward. 

As Angresh ji quoted: Jo jo hoay, soi sukh maneh


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## Sherdil

Here is a thought:

We are God.

Gurbani says that the creator exists within creation. What separates us from inanimate objects is our consciousness. 

What is consciousness and where does it come from? The same place where everything else comes from. 

We are a part of the Universe, which means that the Universe is aware of itself. It is thinking about itself. It doesn't do anything that it doesn't want, and nothing happens that wasn't meant to happen. 

Existence doesn't end when we die. The Universe continues on. So there is no death, and there is no birth. Gurbani says that Akal is not subject to life and death. 

Reincarnation is then a metaphor for levels of self-awareness. Out of all living things, humans are the only ones that are aware of their mortality. The 8.4 lakh junoons are experienced in this life, as progressively higher levels of awareness, until we are liberated. 

Liberation from fear, hatred, envy, greed, anger, and all other things that prevent us from attaining peace.


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## angrisha

There a number of things written which are open for interpretation . 

Firstly, I don't feellike destiny and hukam should be seen as the same thing. Destiny implies some thing we are going to achieve if we act in a certain way, if we don't it's not fully set in stone that we will reach it (hence why is something to be fulfilled)

Hukam, is always present and it's not a fate based concept. Hukam is something we surrender our minds to, or our ego (forgive my ignorance, I'm still very much learning). In my mind, if you can live with hukam in every moment karma/destiny doent really matter.


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## Luckysingh

Destiny can be changed.
Hukam is ALL his.

If destiny couldn't be changed, the what would be the point of sikhi ?
Destiny is only pre-ordained according to your current state of inner awareness and consciousness. Basically, if you continue going the path and with state of mind you are at at any given time, then destiny dictates UNDER the command of Hukam.

Probably wondering, how do you change it ??
_By raising your consciousness_.

This is only done if you make the effort to learn about your soul/consciousness.
This is what a TRUE SIKH is supposed to be a _learner_ about. 
To learn how to realize God by climbing up the spiritual ladder. This ladder has rungs which are all out of the boundaries from _*Kaal.*_
Only *AKAAL *can put his hand down to help and guide you up. But you have to make that effort to start learning and climbing.

There is ONLY ONE method, I know...........NAAM SIMRAN !
Only Naam simran/meditation can take your inner 'antar ghath' to be outside the boundaries or influences of maya and thoughts.

*Remember-* _ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA._
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...
Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can *NOT* help you climb that ladder !

WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.

When you achieve the meditative state outside 3 gunas, which will be without any thoughts, then there is only You and GOD. Nothing else.
_*In fact, you should realize there is ONLY HIM*_

This is the Goal.
This is the merging.
This is what you have to work at to maintain, so that it becomes a continuous state of sehaj.
Then, you reach territory of gurmukh and jivan mukht.

Then you pass all the planes/realms of mind and reach the True abode of Sachkhand.

As for REINCARNATION and TRANSMIGRATION.
Gurbani doesn't tell us that it doesn't exist.
It tells us that ONCE, you reach that ultimate state of being with the TRUE SAT in sackhand status, then for you there will be NO reincarnation, No karma, No past negative affects on present....
But for all the others mingling on the lower levels and states of consciousness, they will continue to revolve in the circles of birth/death, karma, destiny, free will-playground (recess) time......and repeat.....repeat......


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## Sherdil

I thought destiny cannot be changed. 

Googled definition:

1.
the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.
"she was unable to control her own destiny"
the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate.
"he believes in destiny"
synonyms:	future, fate, fortune, doom; More

In gurbani, "lekha" literally means "what is written". It takes on the meaning of destiny. 

This alludes to the idea that destiny cannot be changed, just like you cannot change what has already been written.


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## Sherdil

This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji on Pannaa 27:

jis hee kee sirakaar hai this hee kaa sabh koe ||
Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.

guramukh kaar kamaavanee sach ghatt paragatt hoe ||
The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.

a(n)thar jis kai sach vasai sachae sachee soe ||
True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.

sach milae sae n vishhurrehi thin nij ghar vaasaa hoe ||1||
Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||

maerae raam mai har bin avar n koe ||
O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.

sathagur sach prabh niramalaa sabadh milaavaa hoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||

sabadh milai so mil rehai jis no aapae leae milaae ||
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.

dhoojai bhaae ko naa milai fir fir aavai jaae ||
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.

sabh mehi eik varathadhaa eaeko rehiaa samaae ||
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.

jis no aap dhaeiaal hoe so guramukh naam samaae ||2||
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||

parr parr pa(n)ddith jothakee vaadh karehi beechaar ||
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.

math budhh bhavee n bujhee a(n)thar lobh vikaar ||
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.

lakh chouraaseeh bharamadhae bhram bhram hoe khuaar ||
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.

poorab likhiaa kamaavanaa koe n maettanehaar ||3||
They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||

sathagur kee saevaa gaakharree sir dheejai aap gavaae ||
It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.

sabadh milehi thaa har milai saevaa pavai sabh thhaae ||
Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.

paaras parasiai paaras hoe jothee joth samaae ||
By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.

jin ko poorab likhiaa thin sathagur miliaa aae ||4||
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||

man bhukhaa bhukhaa math karehi math thoo karehi pookaar ||
O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.

lakh chouraaseeh jin siree sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.

nirabho sadhaa dhaeiaal hai sabhanaa karadhaa saar ||
The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.

naanak guramukh bujheeai paaeeai mokh dhuaar ||5||3||36||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||


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## Sherdil

Karma is a means of fulfilling one's destiny. Action and reaction. It's a means to an end. 

The thief stole something, so he ended up in prison. He fulfilled his destiny of ending up in prison by stealing. 

Hukam is the "One" deciding your destiny. Gurbani says that by Hukam, some are destined to find the path, while others keep wandering. 

Side note: "The path" doesn't mean Sikhi. It's truthful living. Sikhi is just a study of the truth. You can still believe in something else, or be an atheist, and still live truthfully. That's why our GGS contains writing from people of different denominations. 

"Truth is high. Higher still is truthful living."


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## Sherdil

"Nanak hukmai jai bujhey, ta haumai kahe nah koi"

If you understand Hukam, you will never say haumai. Haumai has been erroneously translated to mean ego. 

Literally, haumai is a combination of Hum Hai, which means "I am".

Gurbani is saying there is no "I". You are a part of the universe, just like the planets and the stars. When you act and think, it is the universe that is acting and thinking. The "One" who controls the planets and stars also controls you.

"Gaaveh ko taan, hoveh kise taan". = Some sing of His power, but who really has the power to sing of His power? 

You cannot sing if He does not want you to sing. The stars don't die if He has not made it their destiny to die.


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## Luckysingh

> Although, we can't write off karma. It is mentioned over and over in GGS.


 


harry haller said:


> as are many Hindu Gods, spirits, ghosts, concepts of reincarnation, lust etc etc
> 
> many many things are mentioned over and over in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...


 
:interestedkudi: Just mentioned repeatedly to help fill up the pages and make a nice bulky volume ??

Looking at the whole issue on the surface and outer layers !
This is how anyone has to first start off, but slowly they should get in deeper and start discovering the esoteric inner layers.

Then you may hopefully realise that EACH mention is there for it's own significance and reason.


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## Luckysingh

Sherdil said:


> "Nanak hukmai jai bujhey, ta haumai kahe nah koi"
> 
> If you understand Hukam, you will never say haumai. Haumai has been erroneously translated to mean ego.
> 
> Literally, haumai is a combination of Hum Hai, which means "I am".
> 
> Gurbani is saying there is no "I". You are a part of the universe, just like the planets and the stars. When you act and think, it is the universe that is acting and thinking. The "One" who controls the planets and stars also controls you.
> 
> "Gaaveh ko taan, hoveh kise taan". = Some sing of His power, but who really has the power to sing of His power?
> 
> You cannot sing if He does not want you to sing. The stars don't die if He has not made it their destiny to die.


 

Haumai is actually alot more than EGO.
You are right that it gets erroneously translated as meaning just EGO.

EGO is just a part of Haumai.
Haumai is more than just self-pride, me..me...me...me.., I am...I did...I do...I..I..I...I.....

Killing Haumai is about _TOTAL disassociation_ from self, whilst still breathing the breaths that are controlled by his HUKAM. 
Haumai killing is not just about being humble and not putting yourself at the forefront, it  *is about totally killing your thoughts/action/maya needs..*

(Read my earlier post to try see where I am coming from!)

In gurbani it mentions *DYING IN THE SHABAD*
Only at this time is Your Haumai totally killed.
This is something that one has to do again and again.

Kabirji mentions in places that ''I have to keep dying again and again''
''Can't i just die the once''
"" aisee marney jo marey, bahur na marna hoi''

yes, he is not talking about reincarnation this time (atheists on here will be pleased for once !lol)
 But here, he talking about the 'Dying in the shabad'' and  '' the dying whilst alive''


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## Sherdil

On the topic of Haumai:

"I" am not speaking to "you". This discussion we are having is the Universe coming to terms with itself. 

The conversation has evolved from the beginning of this thread until now. Everyone has contributed their own part to bring the discussion to where it is now. 

"We" collectively are the Universe trying to discern the truth.


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## Brother Onam

Waheguru,
I sometimes sense that we approach Sikhi with a certain position (for instance that Sikhi does not teach reincarnation), and then go through intellectual gymnastics to explain away the many references in the Guru to, for instance, reincarnation.
Each of the many passages mentioning reincarnation is nimbly explained away as 'addressing Hindus', 'meant figuratively', 'allegorical', 'talking to people in the language they'll understand', etc, etc. 
'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation. (I feel hackles rising all over the Network)


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## Ishna

Brother Onam Ji

Thank you for your focus on reincarnation.

Reincarnation, karma and caste are all elements of the same package. I'm not sure how reincarnation  would work on its own - to what end and for what purpose.

From your point of view, if you don't mind me asking; how is the reincarnation taught by Guru Ji different to the reincarnation taught within Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism)?

Perhaps one of the traps some Sikhs fall into is trying to reduce the Sikh concept of reincarnation into the Hindu one, when in fact Guru Nanak Sahib Ji tended not to take concepts already existing in other traditions at the time and glue them together into some kind of new religion, like taking the trunk from the Vedic elephant and the spots from the Islamic leopard and calling the resulting animal an elephanopard; instead he masterfully perceived the Truth, compared it to the existing traditions, and made distinctly new statements, limited in some areas by the existing terminology (when he wasn't creating his own words, like Ik Onkar).

So, assuming for the time being that Sikhism does in fact teach reincarnation, what exactly does that look like, per Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


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## Luckysingh

> Reincarnation, karma and caste are all elements of the same package. I'm not sure how reincarnation would work on its own - to what end and for what purpose.


 
Why not ? and How not ?



> From your point of view, if you don't mind me asking; how is the reincarnation taught by Guru Ji different to the reincarnation taught within Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism)?


 
I don't think we have to give a hoots, to what hinduism reinacarnation order/specifics are.
It's no pre-requisite for gurbani to have to learn how many births in different castes a chuurha(gutter worker/cleaner) has to take before having birth as a jatt and how many good deeds he has to do accordingly.



> Perhaps one of the traps *some *Sikhs fall into is trying to reduce the Sikh concept of reincarnation into the Hindu one, when in fact Guru Nanak Sahib Ji tended not to take concepts already existing in other traditions at the time and glue them together into some kind of new religion,


 
He never went out to make a new better religion using little bits that seemed glossed in truth from other faiths. 
Did he deny that devi and devtas were like angels ?
No, he tried to make the worshiper's learn that they were not worshiping the Higher truth.
Because, they were simply getting stuck with idols/rituals ''*as the be all and end all.''*
He tried to make them learn that it was the ONE satguru that was the creator of the devi, devta, angels..etc..


Maybe it's pointless discussing this, since some of you don't believe in soul or conscious .
I mean, think about it, if there is a GOD part or entity within you, then does it just die ?
What is Akaal and timeless then ?
Is the temple that Jesus spoke about and the ghar that gurbani talks about within you or just your skin, bones and flesh ?
Is the Mind the same thing as the Brain ?


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## Luckysingh

Brother Onam said:


> Waheguru,
> I sometimes sense that we approach Sikhi with a certain position (for instance that Sikhi does not teach reincarnation), and then go through intellectual gymnastics to explain away the many references in the Guru to, for instance, reincarnation.
> Each of the many passages mentioning reincarnation is nimbly explained away as 'addressing Hindus', 'meant figuratively', 'allegorical', 'talking to people in the language they'll understand', etc, etc.
> 'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation. (I feel hackles rising all over the Network)


A beautifully explained post Onamji :icecreammunda:
(clear and concise)


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## Ishna

I think you misunderstood my sincere question, Lucky Ji.

Is there an order to reincarnation in Sikhi? Do your actions influence your karma which influence your next birth? Do you have to be reincarnated into a particular life-form before you can be liberated?

What about when Guru Arjun Sahib says not to delay, that this is our opportunity to meet God? Maybe we will have other opportunities?

Some Sikhs at the Gurdwara I go to aren't fussed about seeking kande di pahul because they say they are not ready for it in this life and hopefully they will have better luck in their next life as long as they try to be good people in this one. What are your thoughts about that?


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## angrisha

I will probably to read more into bani, and im sure my opinions are changing all the time.

I dont think bani ever says to wait till your next life, on the contrary we have no idea even if there is a next life what that will entail. So the message ive always taken away is that, you only have this life and even that is often unpredictable enough. You only every really have this moment, even the next moment is a mystery.
Saying your going to put things in to the next life or wait for then seems an awful lot like gambiling....
Guruji  says in Ananad Sahib ji:

ਜੀਅਹੁ  ਮੈਲੇ  ਬਾਹਰਹੁ  ਨਿਰਮਲ  ॥
जीअहु मैले बाहरहु निरमल ॥
Jī▫ahu maile bāhrahu nirmal.
Inwardly polluted, and outwardly pure.

ਬਾਹਰਹੁ  ਨਿਰਮਲ  ਜੀਅਹੁ  ਤ  ਮੈਲੇ  ਤਿਨੀ  ਜਨਮੁ  ਜੂਐ  ਹਾਰਿਆ  ॥
   ]बाहरहु निरमल जीअहु त मैले तिनी जनमु जूऐ हारिआ ॥
Bāhrahu nirmal jī▫ahu ṯa maile ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā.
Those who are outwardly pure and yet polluted within, lose their lives in the gamble.

ਏਹ  ਤਿਸਨਾ  ਵਡਾ  ਰੋਗੁ  ਲਗਾ  ਮਰਣੁ  ਮਨਹੁ  ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ  ॥
एह तिसना वडा रोगु लगा मरणु मनहु विसारिआ ॥
Ėh ṯisnā vadā rog lagā maraṇ manhu visāri▫ā.
They contract this terrible disease of desire, and in their minds, they forget about dying.

ਵੇਦਾ  ਮਹਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਉਤਮੁ  ਸੋ  ਸੁਣਹਿ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਫਿਰਹਿ  ਜਿਉ  ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ  ॥
वेदा महि नामु उतमु सो सुणहि नाही फिरहि जिउ बेतालिआ ॥
veḏā mėh nām uṯam so suṇėh nāhī firėh ji▫o beṯāli▫ā.
In the Vedas, the ultimate  objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this,  and they wander around like demons.

ਕਹੈ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਜਿਨ  ਸਚੁ  ਤਜਿਆ  ਕੂੜੇ  ਲਾਗੇ  ਤਿਨੀ  ਜਨਮੁ  ਜੂਐ  ਹਾਰਿਆ  ॥੧੯॥
कहै नानकु जिन सचु तजिआ कूड़े लागे तिनी जनमु जूऐ हारिआ ॥१९॥
Kahai Nānak jin sacẖ ṯaji▫ā kūṛe lāge ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā. ||19||
Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. ||19||

The other point is, im not sure if Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is speaking of literal karma/reincarnation... but more so how they apply to the person on a step by step level. Karma for example involves actual doing, i.e. physically or mental.... to be simpler it does after our day to day lives, so thus the types of actions you take basically are what you attract back to you. I.e. If I wake up grumpy, and then am grumpy to the poor lady giving me coffee, if she then becomes grumpy towards.....its all your own actions casuing these changes.... Im not talking about past life, only current life actions.

Secondly, reincarnation can be seen on a microscopic scale of how we reincarnate many times in our lives and a fairly frequent pace. As we grow and change and learn we are never exactly the same at one moment to the next... Our concept of self and humai are constantly in flux.... The longer you take to sort out some of the lessons which bring you pain and hair ships, the more 'cycles"you have to go through....

Some concepts defiantly get clouded with Buddhist or hindu teachings..... this is why self learning i so important


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## Luckysingh

Reincarnation in sikhi = repeated cycles of birth and death,the 84 lak joons.
So, if you don't make the permanent union with waheguru after death, then you shall be reborn. 
Reincarnation (translated) by hindu masses= Working your way up the caste/ status ladder.
so, you can keep doing satogun good deeds under the impression that you will come back with a higher worldly status.

No Guru says the vedas are wrong. If so, please show me ?
It's the misinterpretations and translations that are wrong.
It's the ideas that only the pandits can understand and get the knowledge.
It's about them having the power because you need them as the guides is what they make the masses think.
Same thing goes for other faiths that insist churches/temples and shrines have to be built, so that they can control the power.


*Nothing wrong with rituals either*, but problems are when they become BLIND rituals.
*RITUALS are what define a dharm or religion*.
_Show me a religion without any rituals_ ?

Nothing I know is wrong with spoken words of Jesus, know nothing wrong about the vedas ...BUT, it's the misinterpretations and messages given by churches and religious authorities that lead people to dead ends.

There is plenty of gurmat in the bibles and other scriptures, but you have to find it in the contexts to apply it and recognize it.

_ALL religions talk about the INNER self using metaphors and parables. But semitics love to take all the stories as literal, whereas in sikhi we have the opposite problem of where we have the straight messages and instructions and the crazies want to convert them back into metaphors instead ! _
_You don't gyan going backwards !_


----------



## Ishna

Thanks for your input.



> Reincarnation (translated) by hindu masses= Working your way up the caste/ status ladder.
> so, you can keep doing satogun good deeds under the impression that you will come back with a higher worldly status.


 
Is the ultimate goal in Hinduism the same as in Sikhi, where you keep doing good deeds until you're reincarnated to the point where, when you die, you merge with Waheguru?  The only difference being that Sikhs reincarnate all over the place randomly (horizontally) and they don't go up or down a ladder of status (vertical reincarnation)?  Or do Sikhs reincarnate into more comfortable lives if they do good deeds?  Or do they reincarnate into more spiritual people?

Are the answers to these questions in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?



> Reincarnation in sikhi = repeated cycles of birth and death,the 84 lak joons.
> So, if you don't make the permanent union with waheguru after death, then you shall be reborn.


 
Where does jeevn mukht (liberated while alive) fit into this model?

I thought Sikhi was about avoiding complicated 'mental gymnastics' and having a simple, uncomplicated, logical acceptance of life as it is and using that as motivation to be a good person in society with truth, contentment and contemplation, in chardi kala.


----------



## Sherdil

Ishna said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the ultimate goal in Hinduism the same as in Sikhi, where you keep doing good deeds until you're reincarnated to the point where, when you die, you merge with Waheguru?  The only difference being that Sikhs reincarnate all over the place randomly (horizontally) and they don't go up or down a ladder of status (vertical reincarnation)?  Or do Sikhs reincarnate into more comfortable lives if they do good deeds?  Or do they reincarnate into more spiritual people?
> 
> Are the answers to these questions in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
> 
> 
> 
> Where does jeevn mukht (liberated while alive) fit into this model?
> 
> I thought Sikhi was about avoiding complicated 'mental gymnastics' and having a simple, uncomplicated, logical acceptance of life as it is and using that as motivation to be a good person in society with truth, contentment and contemplation, in chardi kala.



Here is a way to avoid "mental gymnastics".

Stop worrying about past lives and future lives. Nobody knows what they were or what they will be. Not even gurbani or the Hindu scriptures can tell you this. 

Concentrate on making the most of the life you have right now.


----------



## Taranjeet singh

I think simple proposition is made complicated on account of difference in the interpretation of  'Tuks'/shabads related to Karmas and reincarnation. I am guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in this regard.
IMHO One should do the interpretation oneself to arrive at the subjective conclusion as the opinions do vary. I J singh is also of the belief that there is no reincarnation. Many senior members on the forum also believe the same way. However , the best way is to interpret Gurbani for oneself.


----------



## chazSingh

Arvind said:


> I think all of us are as old as this universe is! All of us are our own ancestors, and our descendants are again us only!
> 
> Just my random thoughts!



I like this 

our combined consciousness...our combined divine spark animates and creates the whole of existence...all is God...all is He...

I personally think re-incarnation exists and is governed by our unfulfilled desires, our attachments, our actions etc etc..but we shouldn't waste our time thinking about it...instead make the most of the 'Now' and connect to Waheguru 'Now' for the present is the only reality that matters.


----------



## chazSingh

Taranjeet singh said:


> I think simple proposition is made complicated on account of difference in the interpretation of  'Tuks'/shabads related to Karmas and reincarnation. I am guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in this regard.
> IMHO One should do the interpretation oneself to arrive at the subjective conclusion as the opinions do vary. I J singh is also of the belief that there is no reincarnation. Many senior members on the forum also believe the same way. However , the best way is to interpret Gurbani for oneself.



I wholeheartedly Agree,

Whilst Forums are a great place to discuss and have Sangat, it is also a place where doubts can manifest and implant themselves within us....

Read Gurbani, Contemplate Gurbani, pray for Guru Ji to reveal the Truth using whatever means God so wishes...Clarity will eventually come through patience and perseverance and ultimately Grace 

God Bless Ji


----------



## Luckysingh

Ishna said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> Is the ultimate goal in Hinduism the same as in Sikhi, where you keep doing good deeds until you're reincarnated to the point where, when you die, you merge with Waheguru? The only difference being that Sikhs reincarnate all over the place randomly (horizontally) and they don't go up or down a ladder of status (vertical reincarnation)? Or do Sikhs reincarnate into more comfortable lives if they do good deeds? Or do they reincarnate into more spiritual people?


 
Other members have answered the whole thing quite well above. 
Guru's message is NOT that there is no reincarnation or karma,..but you have this ONE chance to make the difference regardless of if it exists.
Why be worrying about it, when you can BYPASS all of these lower planes/stages and merge straight into WAHEGURU.



> Are the answers to these questions in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


are you being serious here ?
do you think i got it from DG or anurag sagar or other granths ?
It's all in Guru granth sahib ji in _non-metaphorical_ form.



> Where does jeevn mukht (liberated while alive) fit into this model?


Jivan mukht means that you can experience this whilst living, and don't have to wait until after death. It's not the complete immersion into waheguru's ocean, because that happens after death.
It's the lower stages of mukti where one's identity still remains.
Jivan mukht should* NOT* be mistaken _as the ''Be all and End all''_
You have to understand that everything happens and follows orders of layers/stages/states of mind. 

see..http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...eincarnation-transmigration-8.html#post196086



> I thought Sikhi was about avoiding complicated 'mental gymnastics' and having a simple, uncomplicated, logical acceptance of life as it is and using that as motivation to be a good person in society with truth, contentment and contemplation, in chardi kala.


Because all of this is still just satogun(maya) !
An atheist that doesn't meditate can be doing all the above.

.....see .from the same post i referenced above


> *Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA*.
> Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
> Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
> _BUT,BUT........BUT..._
> 
> _Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder_ !
> *WHY* ??
> _*Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA*._
> It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
> ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.


----------



## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> Quote:
> *Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA*.
> Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
> Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
> _BUT,BUT........BUT..._
> 
> _Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder_ !
> *WHY* ??
> _*Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA*._
> It  may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only  viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of  sikhi.
> ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.




I think this is so well said...
doing truthful deeds and actions is a way to tip the balance...but is still part of Maya
eventually with such efforts, regular ardaas and Simran...we will all fall under the realm of *grace* and go beyond maya and the mind...

God Bless Lucky Ji


----------



## spnadmin

LuckySingh ji

I have followed a number of your comments in this thread for a day or two. Would you clarify whether these are your personal opinions or whether they are grounded in SGGS?

Of course, sources from SGGS require you post a full shabad with ang number, and your interpretation so that others an evaluate your vichaar.

Thank you.


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## Luckysingh

It's all in the Gurbani.
You have to pick up each little pearl that shines to you as you go through. And these pearls are everlasting, so you go back and discover more every time.

If you guys disagree with a particular point that I have noted, then please share the gurbani that you feel disagrees with what I'm saying, and then I can try clarify.

We have threads on all the areas I mentioned and one can check the discussions there to avoid repeating.

At this current stage I am at, I am more than convinced about what I'm talking about. Maybe in the near future, it may change ? who knows ?? (I know WHO knows!!)


----------



## Ishna

Sherdil said:


> Here is a way to avoid "mental gymnastics".
> 
> Stop worrying about past lives and future lives. Nobody knows what they were or what they will be. Not even gurbani or the Hindu scriptures can tell you this.
> 
> Concentrate on making the most of the life you have right now.


 
Precisely, which is why Im confused about how some other posters are explaining complicated, esoteric systems of reincarnation and karma etc when Im not getting explanations of this system from the Gurbani. The Gurbani paints a simple picture and puts the emphasis squarely where it needs to be but posters here are explaining the ins and outs of things like reincarnation and have obviously given it much thought, so I ask the questions.


----------



## spnadmin

Then please take one of your allegations, tell us which "pearl" of Gurbani it corresponds to and give us the shabad, Luckysinghji.


----------



## Luckysingh

There are no ''allegations' with understanding subtle qualities.
Please give me such allegation example you are referring to and tell me why not? or why one should disagree.


----------



## Inderjeet Kaur

In each of us is the light of the Creator, summed up beautifully in the Sikh name Harjot.  This jot is Eternal, immortal.  It is this that goes from one body to the next.  I call it my soul.

Eventually it will return from  whence it came.

This is my belief.  Too simple, I'm afraid.


----------



## spnadmin

Luckysingh said:


> There are no ''allegations' with understanding subtle qualities.
> Please give me such allegation example you are referring to and tell me why not? or why one should disagree.



Luckysingh ji

It appears you have no intention of complying with my request/s. 

Your post creates the impression that you understand "subtle qualities."  Moreover you do not intend to ground your comments either in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or personal opinion. Therefore I must assume these are your opinions and that you are expressing yourself. That you are not trying to take the rest of us to church based on your opinions or based on gurbani.

If I am wrong and you are going beyond personal opinions, then I will have more to say. Thank you


----------



## Sherdil

Ishna said:


> Precisely, which is why Im confused about how some other posters are explaining complicated, esoteric systems of reincarnation and karma etc when Im not getting explanations of this system from the Gurbani. The Gurbani paints a simple picture and puts the emphasis squarely where it needs to be but posters here are explaining the ins and outs of things like reincarnation and have obviously given it much thought, so I ask the questions.



It is complicated only because we are trying to describe something that we cannot observe directly with the senses. Blind mice trying to describe an elephant, yeah?

I don't believe in reincarnation because I don't think it fits into the overall ethos of gurbani. It has to have uniformity, otherwise it is a contradictory philosophy. 

If we can achieve Mukhti while alive, then why do we have to wait until death for the other stuff to take effect?

8.4 lakh junoons, but I have yet to read an account of how our consciousness moves from one species to the next. How did we arrive at that number anyway? Did some pandit / taxidermist travel the world, documenting all the species he came across? Zoologists are still discovering new species today. All the more reason to believe it is a metaphorical reference that has been used to explain a greater point. 

Even Guru ji found this hard to explain:


This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji on Pannaa 8 

karam kha(n)dd kee baanee jor ||
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

thithhai hor n koee hor ||
No one else dwells there,

thithhai jodhh mehaabal soor ||
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

thin mehi raam rehiaa bharapoor ||
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

thithhai seetho seethaa mehimaa maahi ||
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

thaa kae roop n kathhanae jaahi ||
Their beauty cannot be described.

*naa ouhi marehi n t(h)aagae jaahi ||
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

jin kai raam vasai man maahi ||
within whose minds the Lord abides.

thithhai bhagath vasehi kae loa ||
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

karehi ana(n)dh sachaa man soe ||
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

sach kha(n)dd vasai nira(n)kaar ||
In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.*

kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal ||
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.

thithhai kha(n)dd ma(n)ddal varabha(n)dd ||
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.

jae ko kathhai th a(n)th n a(n)th ||
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.

thithhai loa loa aakaar ||
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

jiv jiv hukam thivai thiv kaar ||
As He commands, so they exist.

vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar ||
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.

*naanak kathhanaa kararraa saar ||37||
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||*


----------



## Sherdil

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji on Pannaa 464 

mÚ 1 ]
ma 1 ||
First Mehla:

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||
O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

kaetheeaa ka(n)nh kehaaneeaa kaethae baedh beechaar ||
There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

kaethae nachehi ma(n)gathae girr murr poorehi thaal ||
So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

baajaaree baajaar mehi aae kadtehi baajaar ||
The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion

gaavehi raajae raaneeaa bolehi aal pathaal ||
They sing as kings and queens, and speak of this and that.

lakh ttakiaa kae mu(n)dharrae lakh ttakiaa kae haar ||
They wear earrings, and necklaces worth thousands of dollars.

jith than paaeeahi naanakaa sae than hovehi shhaar ||
Those bodies on which they are worn, O Nanak, those bodies turn to ashes.

*giaan galeeee dtoodteeai kathhanaa kararraa saar ||
Wisdom cannot be found through mere words. To explain it is as hard as iron.

karam milai thaa paaeeai hor hikamath hukam khuaar ||2||
When the Lord bestows His Grace, then alone it is received; other tricks and orders are useless.*||2||


----------



## Gurdeep94

I do believe in  reincarnation coz i think that the soul or spirit, after biological death,  begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual  depending on their karma.:happysingh:


----------



## Harry Haller

Luckyji


 you may find the following as an item of interest!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-Des...cessories_Safety_Security&hash=item338a1efa73


----------



## Sherdil

Lucky ji,

Jivan mukhti is the goal. To be a Jivan Mukht means that your consciousness has united with the Truth while you are alive. 

Death is when the consciousness is no more. The part of the shabadh that I highlighted explains that those who have united their consciousness with the Truth do not die. They live on because they have joined with the Truth, which is timeless. They are free from birth and death. 

Those who focus their consciousness on the material world will die, because materialistic things do not last. They are transient. They come and go. 

The cycle of birth and death is synonymous with suffering. That suffering can be experienced in a single life. Have you heard the expression "To die a thousand deaths" or "Born-Again Christian"?

In Sikhi, one of the 5 thieves is "Ahankaar". This means pride in one's intelligence, wealth, abilities, etc. It is ahankaar to pretend to know what will happen to you when you die. As mortals, we only know about this life. Thus, what is mentioned in gurbani has to be framed within what we experience in this life. 

The litmus test is to insert the idea of reincarnation into gurbani, and then remove it to see if the core message changes. It does not. The Gurmukh is still encouraged to seek the Truth in everything around him. He is still encouraged to make the Truth the focus of his life, rather than the materialistic world. He is still told that he can merge his mind with the Truth, thus putting an end to his suffering.


----------



## spnadmin

Lucky ji

My question was very clear. Now instead of prolonging a futile exchange i will begin deleting statements to follow that do not comply.


----------



## spnadmin

*As a forum note. SPN clearly states that deletions can occur at any time without any explanation. Where previous deletions occurred in this thread, they were preceded by requests for clarification.The questions I posed went unanswered. They were followed up with rudeness. Further action may need to be taken if this continues.*


----------



## Luckysingh

My sincere apologies if you perceived my ignorance as rudeness.
I came back from my yoga class with all my chakras aligned, which in turn helped inspire a divine reminder.
I don't want spn contributing to negative karmic imprints on my aura or adding more weight to my already heavy soul.
I should know better to forgive others myself and ask for forgiveness, after all, my ant-kal may arrive tomorrow for all I know.

For a moment, I had forgotten that I don't run the show and neither do I role the dice, on this forum or anywhere else.

I will try and send you all a blessing of the healing divine white light.

night-night


----------



## Luckysingh

harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> 
> you may find the following as an item of interest!
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-Des...cessories_Safety_Security&hash=item338a1efa73


 
How did you guess it was my birthday ?


----------



## angrisha

Sherdil said:


> ?
> 
> *8.4 lakh junoons*, but I have yet to read an account of how our consciousness moves from one species to the next. How did we arrive at that number anyway? Did some pandit / taxidermist travel the world, documenting all the species he came across? Zoologists are still discovering new species today. All the more reason to believe it is a metaphorical reference that has been used to explain a greater point.
> 
> E*||37||*



I know this a small section of your post, however... i was curious one day about this number as well and I googled the actual number of *known *species it actually came up to 8.7 million..... so not exact put close enough... considering that knowledge 500 years ago was not known at the scale we do now... Always makes me amazed at the intelligence....

The best theory Ive heard, because we are all energy and energy is transferable.... its actually your energy that transfers not necessarily your consciousness in tact (if you so choose to believe)


----------



## Harry Haller

> Other members have answered the whole thing quite well above.
> Guru's message is NOT that there is no reincarnation or karma,..but you have this ONE chance to make the difference regardless of if it exists.



that's a very big 'not' you have there, and its not just a personal 'not' its a 'not' that is being preached...




> Why be worrying about it, when you can BYPASS all of these lower planes/stages and merge straight into WAHEGURU.



I was not aware of any lower planes or stages, neither was I aware that I had unmerged at some point.








> Jivan mukht means that you can experience this whilst living, and don't have to wait until after death. It's not the complete immersion into waheguru's ocean, because that happens after death.


 as my sis stated, how can you possibly know?



> It's the lower stages of mukti where one's identity still remains.
> Jivan mukht should* NOT* be mistaken _as the ''Be all and End all''_
> You have to understand that everything happens and follows orders of layers/stages/states of mind.
> 
> see..http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questi...tml#post196086


 so this is not just your opinion, this is fact!




> .....see .from the same post i referenced above


 well,I would say you have some way to go before you can claim to have conquered ego......

*



Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA.
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...

Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder !
WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.

Click to expand...

*the esoteric layers of Sikhim hmmmmm

well pardon me, but I would do anything to get AWAY from the esoteric layers, in fact these layers stand for everything against Sikhism

*es·o·ter·ic*

/ˌɛs
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





əˈtɛr
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




ɪk/ Show Spelled [es-uh-ter-ik] Show IPA 
adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions. 

2. belonging to the select few. 

3. private; secret; confidential. 

4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras




> How did you guess it was my birthday ?


 actually I am being naïve, you probably already have one


well good luck with your secret squirrel society


----------



## Satyaban

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> In each of us is the light of the Creator, summed up beautifully in the Sikh name Harjot. This jot is Eternal, immortal. It is this that goes from one body to the next. I call it my soul.
> 
> Eventually it will return from whence it came.
> 
> This is my belief. Too simple, I'm afraid.


 
Concise and to the point. I like it.


----------



## Satyaban

This is what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said about Hindus and karma:
 Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names a universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction which governs all life. Karma is a natural law of the mind, just as gravity is a law of matter.

Karma is not fate, for man acts of free will, creating his own destiny. The Vedas tell us, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determine our future. It is the interplay between our experience and how we respond to that makes karma devastating or helpfully invigorating. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction. Not all karmas rebound immediately. Some accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other births. The several kind of karma are: personal, family, community, national, global and universal. Ancient rishis perceived personal karma's three fold edict. The first is sanchita, the sum total of past karmas yet to be resolved. The second is prurabdha, that portion sanchita to be experienced in this life. Kriyamana, the third type, is karma we are currently creating. The Vedas propound, "Here they say that a person consists of desires. And as is his desire, so is his will, so he is the deed. What ever deed he does, that he will reap."

He goes on to say:
In the highest sense, there is no good or bad karma. All experience offers opportunities for spiritual growth. Selfless acts yield positive, uplifting conditions. Selfish acts yield conditions of negativity and confusion.

"The law of karma is neutral, like the grain in the man's pouch. One lady puts out grain for hungry crows. Seeing a beggar's pleading tears, a man hoards his grain, bringing tears to his own eyes as well. Another man stealing grain, lands in jail"


----------



## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> This is what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said about Hindus and karma:
> Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names a universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction which governs all life. Karma is a natural law of the mind, just as gravity is a law of matter.
> 
> Karma is not fate, for man acts of free will, creating his own destiny. The Vedas tell us, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determine our future. It is the interplay between our experience and how we respond to that makes karma devastating or helpfully invigorating. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction. Not all karmas rebound immediately. Some accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other births. The several kind of karma are: personal, family, community, national, global and universal. Ancient rishis perceived personal karma's three fold edict. The first is sanchita, the sum total of past karmas yet to be resolved. The second is prurabdha, that portion sanchita to be experienced in this life. Kriyamana, the third type, is karma we are currently creating. The Vedas propound, "Here they say that a person consists of desires. And as is his desire, so is his will, so he is the deed. What ever deed he does, that he will reap."
> 
> He goes on to say:
> In the highest sense, there is no good or bad karma. All experience offers opportunities for spiritual growth. Selfless acts yield positive, uplifting conditions. Selfish acts yield conditions of negativity and confusion.
> 
> "The law of karma is neutral, like the grain in the man's pouch. One lady puts out grain for hungry crows. Seeing a beggar's pleading tears, a man hoards his grain, bringing tears to his own eyes as well. Another man stealing grain, lands in jail"



This post is a perfect example of how the Sikh Gurus have taken terminology from Hindu beliefs and applied them in a new context.

Here is how I feel Sikh Philosophy differs from what Satyaban has written:

1) Gurbani says that our destiny (lekha) has already been written. It cannot be changed. Whatever happens is the only thing that could have happened. 

2) Karma is a system of action and reaction, by which we fulfill our destiny (lekha). "Aapeh beejh, aapeh hi khao. Nanak, Hukmi aavo jaho". You reap what you sow. By His command, we come and go. 

3) It is the illusion of Maya that makes one believe they have free will. "Hukmae andar sabh koh, bahaar Hukam nah koi". Everything falls under His control. Nothing is outside of it. 

This shabadh is by Guru Nanak dev ji, on pannaa 7:

aakhan jor chupai neh jor ||
jor n ma(n)gan dhaen n jor ||
jor n jeevan maran neh jor ||
jor n raaj maal man sor ||
jor n surathee giaan veechaar ||
jor n jugathee shhuttai sa(n)saar ||
jis hathh jor kar vaekhai soe ||
naanak outham neech n koe ||33||

No power to speak, no power to keep silent.
No power to beg, no power to give.
No power to live, no power to die.
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.
No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.
No power to find the way to escape from the world.
He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.
O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

To put this into Hindu terminology: The atman (consciousness) is part of the Supreme Brahman (Ik Oankar). Whatever actions it does, is willed by the Supreme Brahman. They are one and the same. 

5) Satyaban has stated "The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction".

In the Ramayana, Lord Rama's actions were fueled by passion. Yet he is considered to be a god by Hindus. 

The Gurus believed that we had to act to eliminate suffering in this world. Action sometimes entails war and violence to remove tyranny. 

If passionate action is taken to alleviate the suffering of others, then it is a selfless act. No karma accrued.


----------



## Satyaban

Sherdil ji:

"If passionate action is taken to alleviate the suffering of others, then it is a selfless act. No karma accrued."

The problem with that is it incurs attachments to the results along with expectations which are obstacles to self-realization. Acts should be performed without attachments and expectations.

"To put this into Hindu terminology: The atman (consciousness) is part of the Supreme Brahman (Ik Oankar). Whatever actions it does, is willed by the Supreme Brahman. They are one and the same."

This depends on what level of consciousness you are talking about. The _atman _is not physical body, emotions, external mind or personality. The atman is eternal, what continues after physical death, the transcendent Self God within.

What does Sikh philosophy say about the destination of the soul or atman of a person who does not live in consonance of with the times and lives an adharmic life? You all do not believe in a hell do you?


----------



## Satyaban

Sherdil said:


> Harry ji brings up another point:
> 
> What if the mother is an alcoholic and a druggy? Isn't it then her fault for her baby's defect?
> 
> My take is that who we are is based on the meeting between our parents. If they never found each other, then we wouldn't be here. There never was another me and there never will be one in the future.
> 
> Now is my one and only chance to realize Ik Oankaar.


 
What happens if you fail in this endeavor, your atman or soul ceases to be?


----------



## Luckysingh

Sherdil said:


> Lucky ji,
> 
> Jivan mukhti is the goal. To be a Jivan Mukht means that your consciousness has united with the Truth while you are alive.


 
I agree absolutely. The old concepts and ideas of mukti were all on the idea that the liberation, salvation, nirvana..etc.. could only happen after one was 'free' from this life. They made it sound as if all the oneness, realization, unity..etc.. would happen 'after'. 

This itself gives a slight negative stance to our life now. -As if there is light only at the end of the tunnel(life) and you will have to wait until you get there, providing you stay in the right tunnel !

To me, Guruji simply says _''Why Not ?, Why wait until you reach the end ?_''
_You can experience the anand of the light while you are still in the life tunnel, you don't have to reach the end(meaning death), You don't have to reach the end to experience it''_

I said that jivan mukti should not be considered as  _''the be all and end all_'' meaning that we shouldn't create our own road blocks. He is nirankar, 
timeless, formless, without any limitations whatsoever. So if we can never know the limitations, then we should be careful of thinking of anything as the be all and end all.
We are in the bounds of time here and we don't know what happens with the formless,timeless, soul or consciousness. 
We are in this kapra of a body, that itself is given according to karma (_karmi avai kaprah_, nadri mokh duar). When we leave the kapra, then only he knows what the fate is next, we can't decide or plan that here.
I believe that eventually we fully merge, considering your way up on that conscious/soul evolving process.
We are the jyot saroop, therefore, there would come a point eventually where we are completely advait(non-dual) and have no identity of self whatsoever. This is when the pure jyot merges and only ONE light remains.




> When theof our body dies, then the consciousness in it's absolute pure and truthful form, can merge with his. This is what I understand as the absolute state of jyot merging in jyot.


That's your understanding as far as you know, and I explained a little of mine about this above.
As I said, I understand that my consciousness/soul/jyot is eternal and beyond any limitations.




> Death is when the consciousness is no more.


I've already said that I don't agree or understand how that could be. 
To me, death, is of the body kapra (and organs) only. The way I see it, is that Life and death are dualities that we only experience in this time bound world. 
When we are no more, then we are not subject to dualities. 
But the consciousness was never subject to any duality, as it was just masked according to the will of our mind. Also, because there is no opposite of consciousness/soul/jyot, so it is out of the confines of duality just as the Lord himself. This body bound and covered consciousness is a minuscule part of the larger conscious.
 Don't you agree ??



> The part of the shabadh that I highlighted explains that those who have united their consciousness with the Truth do not die. They live on because they have joined with the Truth, which is timeless. They are free from birth and death.


That part of the shabad is about the realms or states of consciousness, (5 khand) that itself has been debated on many other threads of this forum. I have never noted any aspect of reincarnation or live forever message.



> Those who focus their consciousness on the material world will die, because materialistic things do not last. They are transient. They come and go.


Agree, absolutely !



> The cycle of birth and death is synonymous with suffering. That suffering can be experienced in a single life. Have you heard the expression "To die a thousand deaths" or "Born-Again Christian"?


Again, it's about dualites, which can all be synonymous. A world of opposites, including the way we act and conduct ourselves.



> In Sikhi, one of the 5 thieves is "Ahankaar". This means pride in one's intelligence, wealth, abilities, etc. It is ahankaar to pretend to know what will happen to you when you die. As mortals, we only know about this life. Thus, what is mentioned in gurbani has to be framed within what we experience in this life.


 
ABSOLUTELY !
We are only fooling ourselves if we think we can know and plan our liberation and merging with him.
We can make the damned start right now and aim for it whilst alive.
I like what you said above, because we are using the same EGO to make the plans for after death, whereas Guruji says that if you KILL the very EGO, and obviously still remain alive(breathing and in the sareer), you can still get to experience the freedom of liberation/salvation/mukti/moksha..etc.. 
Kill the same EGO that fools you into thinking the light is only seen at the end. 
Once this can be killed, then the jyot can be seen,felt and experienced whilst in the middle of the tunnel.
However, as we will still get to this life-tunnel end once the kapra goes, only He knows what happens or what we experience, which is why I say don't make jivan mukht a road block 'as the be all and end all'

NOTE- we have many accounts of people from all faiths having near death experiences and out of body...etc...and some of them experience or see the light, see angels, see jesus, see loved ones, ..see heavenly paradise...etc... BUT no one, absolutely No one, comes back and says, they merged in it's entirety. Most of them claim to be nearing it and nearing it, and wanting to get as close to it, but then they come back. Therefore, if one did merge, in all completeness, then they become GOD or the light itself and can't obviously come back to tell the experience, since no identity or subtle ego even remains.




> The litmus test is to insert the idea of reincarnation into gurbani, and then remove it to see if the core message changes. It does not. The Gurmukh is still encouraged to seek the Truth in everything around him. He is still encouraged to make the Truth the focus of his life, rather than the materialistic world. He is still told that he can merge his mind with the Truth, thus putting an end to his suffering.


 
You both hammered and nailed it there !!:icecreammunda:
I've tried to explain this previously but could never find the words and explanation as simple as you made it !
A sikh is to learn,learn,learn and continue learning. This is why we have to be careful of ego, telling us to make only logic out of everything.
I feel that the soul can continue to be learning long after death of the kapra-body. We have to be careful not to make any preconceptions of finite, and this includes making the decision that there may or maybe reincarnation. Even making the decision that it all becomes 'kaput' and that nothing shall remain except worm food, is still the same EGO assuming the timeless aspect or work of God.
We should just get on with it ourselves and try and find out what jivan mukti is about.

I hope I've made myself a little clearer as to what I exactly meant with what i said in the earlier posts. I know some of you are under some impression that i've been possessed or brainwashed with something.


----------



## Luckysingh

harry haller said:


> that's a very big 'not' you have there, and its not just a personal 'not' its a 'not' that is being preached...


 There ain't no preaching dude. 
I said the guru's message was not to confirm the possibility of any reincarnation or not. BUT to reinforce the reminder that we have this One life to make the difference via some efforts o our behalf.





> I was not aware of any lower planes or stages, neither was I aware that I had unmerged at some point.


 
You think you are merged then, I assume ?
Doesn't that mean you are jivan mukht ??







> as my sis stated, how can you possibly know?
> 
> so this is not just your opinion, this is fact!


We are talking about jivan mukht here and how the other descriptions of other documented  mukti fit around it- there is info on the appropriate mukti threads. I would suggest a little read and try understand who says what and why they say it. 



> well,I would say you have some way to go before you can claim to have conquered ego......


I've discussed the EGO earlier and I have made it clear that it is a lifetime goal because it is about us being fed by the thieves. We don't hide away from the thieves, but we should try by placing our mind in the '*present' *at all times ?
For the moments you have no single thoughts, then do you have Ego ?
What are your thoughts ?
Are they always the future or past  or do you have thoughts in the _absolute present time_ ?




> the esoteric layers of Sikhim hmmmmm
> 
> well pardon me, but I would do anything to get AWAY from the esoteric layers, in fact these layers stand for everything against Sikhism


 
If there are no esoteric layers in sikhi, then what do metaphors explain ?
Don't you think that gurbani has slightly varying or different messages for each one of us depending at what stage we are at. 
Or is it the simple and straight ''Thou shall'' and ''Thou shall not''
I thought that any ART got appreciated for it's esoteric depth, and the poetry in gurbani helps to deliver this message.
I have no idea what 'esoteric depth' means to you, if anything !



> actually I am being naïve, you probably already have one
> 
> well good luck with your secret squirrel society


Shouldn't I be in the later Super Secret squirrels instead ?

btw.. I am not going to proceed in any further 'school playground' antics of ''my dad is tougher than yours'' or  ''mine is the biggest because .......''

sat sri akal


----------



## Ishna

Lucky said:
			
		

> You think you are merged then, I assume ?
> Doesn't that mean you are jivan mukht ??


 
I don't know about Harry ji, but for me, yes, we are already "merged", because to be otherwise would be to admit duality, wouldn't it? The problem is the veil of haumai which prevents us from perceiving the fact of our "merged-ness".



			
				Lucky ji said:
			
		

> I said the guru's message was not to confirm the possibility of any reincarnation or not.


 
I think the confusion came up, for myself anyway, when Brother Onam Ji said this:



			
				Brother Onam ji said:
			
		

> 'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation.


 
and then you said this:



			
				Brother Onam ji said:
			
		

> Reincarnation in sikhi = repeated cycles of birth and death,the 84 lak joons.
> So, if you don't make the permanent union with waheguru after death, then you shall be reborn.


 
Are you trying to say that, from your understanding, Sikhi teaches reincarnation and a system of 84 lakh joons, but that we shouldn't worry about it? Is this what you're trying to get at?  It's confusing for me because you are insisting IN BIG LETTERS that there is an esoteric system of karma, reincarnation, etc which seems very well thought out for something we shouldn't be thinking about.  :-/



> If there are no esoteric layers in sikhi, then what do metaphors explain ?


 
The metaphors explain concepts which are hard to explain in any other language. I think that's what Sherdil was trying to get at with his quoted paurhi from Japji Sahib, that to describe it is as hard as steel.

Many thanks...


----------



## Luckysingh

Ishna said:


> I don't know about Harry ji, but for me, yes, we are already "merged", because to be otherwise would be to admit duality, wouldn't it? The problem is the veil of haumai which prevents us from perceiving the fact of our "merged-ness".


 
For me, I don't feel that living and participating in creation means you are merged. The countless mentions in gurbani tell me that when you have realized, is when you merge. 
When you completely kill the ego and conquer the modes of maya with your mind , then you can ''experience'', the merging as jivan mukht.
But the complete jyot into jyot is not here in the world of duality, from my understanding.
This is, as i said...My understanding, and I'm afraid I do stand very strongly with it.
Theres no stopping me !
I may find it difficult to express and explain in words.
But then again, how can I explain my simran in words and the feelings of merged-ness that I can feel when Nirgun(without form).
Then what the hell am I merging with when doing simran when I kill all my thoughts and mind activity ??

Try it !



> Are you trying to say that, from your understanding, Sikhi teaches reincarnation and a system of 84 lakh joons, but that we shouldn't worry about it? Is this what you're trying to get at? It's confusing for me because you are insisting IN BIG LETTERS that there is an esoteric system of karma, reincarnation, etc which seems very well thought out for something we shouldn't be thinking about.


 
Yes, i am saying that ''do you want stay in the cycle if you believe it?'' Believing and understanding is not the same as worshiping. 
It was worshiping reincarnation. the unknown that the vedic pandits preached. Worship and bathe at x amount of shrines if you want to be something better in next life.....blah.......
 THIS IS NOT what I or the majority of other sikhs do or believe.
Believing that there may be a cycle of birth/deaths and staying stuck in  duality does not make me blind worship or change the way i conduct myself.
Nether does it help skip the line or queue to God in any way.

So, i can't undertstand why you are finding it contradicting ?





> The metaphors explain concepts which are hard to explain in any other language. I think that's what Sherdil was trying to get at with his quoted paurhi from Japji Sahib, that to describe it is as hard as steel.
> 
> Many thanks...


 
My point was that I didn't associate that with reincarnation in any way. Maybe I will if I look deeper ?
It's always been about the 5 khands, which are argued as planes/realms of actual existence or states of spiritual consciousness in the mind.
But they can even be both !
You will only begin to realise the truth of what they are once you start realising God and start the merging !!


Satnam Waheguru
PS-there is saas saas as in simro gobind, and saas graas also !


----------



## Harry Haller

> There ain't no preaching dude.


 
 You write definitively, confidently, you use capitals and bold fonts to make points, I beg to differ



> I said the guru's message was not to confirm the possibility of any reincarnation or not. BUT to reinforce the reminder that we have this One life to make the difference via some efforts o our behalf.


 
 and how do you know this? do you have a hotline to God? this is purely your understanding nothing more. I have no problem with your understanding, I have a huge problem with anyone definitively stating that they know the truth. 



> You think you are merged then, I assume ?
> Doesn't that mean you are jivan mukht ??


 
 yes, I think I am merged, Creator is in everything, including dogshit, so I dare say if a dogshit contains Creator then so must do I, I have no interest in Jivan mukht. Is this some other secret squirrel club only available to the chosen ones?



> We are talking about jivan mukht here and how the other descriptions of other documented mukti fit around it- there is info on the appropriate mukti threads. I would suggest a little read and try understand who says what and why they say it.


 
 Why? I have no wish to be like those that spend all their lives seeking mukti, I can be free today if I wish, right now, this very second, freedom comes with living by the truth, rather than sticking your thumbs in your ears and mumbling. 



> I've discussed the EGO earlier and I have made it clear


 
 oh here we go again, Luckyji has made it clear for all of us, what we do without you...



> If there are no esoteric layers in sikhi, then what do metaphors explain ?


 
 the metaphors in bani are reasonably easy to decipher in my opinion, the SGGS was, after all, written for the common man to understand, when you talk of esoteric layers, you suggest something much more different, much more sinister, whose hidden layer is the correct hidden layer, should we stop people that don't believe in our hidden layer from reading any further, maybe one should be born into a particular line of folk that have the correct hidden layer before one is allowed to read? 



> btw.. I am not going to proceed in any further 'school playground' antics of ''my dad is tougher than yours'' or ''mine is the biggest because .......


 
 no, this is different, its spontaneous, its called wit


----------



## Luckysingh

I'm through with the childish nonsense.
It's childish and there is no wit, and i don;t need any wit.
None of us are progressing or learning, so it's better for me to go else where and carry on.
I don't need a hot line because he calls me, or should I say i can hear him calling me, providing I tune in correctly.

only the super secret squirrels know about it as they use the secret currency.

adios


----------



## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> Sherdil ji:
> 
> "If passionate action is taken to alleviate the suffering of others, then it is a selfless act. No karma accrued."
> 
> The problem with that is it incurs attachments to the results along with expectations which are obstacles to self-realization. Acts should be performed without attachments and expectations.
> 
> "To put this into Hindu terminology: The atman (consciousness) is part of the Supreme Brahman (Ik Oankar). Whatever actions it does, is willed by the Supreme Brahman. They are one and the same."
> 
> This depends on what level of consciousness you are talking about. The _atman _is not physical body, emotions, external mind or personality. The atman is eternal, what continues after physical death, the transcendent Self God within.
> 
> What does Sikh philosophy say about the destination of the soul or atman of a person who does not live in consonance of with the times and lives an adharmic life? You all do not believe in a hell do you?



Satyaban ji,

I go back to the Ramayana. Lord Rama moved heaven and earth to get Sita back from the clutches of Ravan. When he succeeded, he discovered that Sita was pregnant, so he banished her. When she was no more, he realized his mistake and entered the river Yamuna, from which he returned to his heavenly abode. 

Lord Rama's actions were fueled by passion. They were knee-jerk reactions. He was completely attached and invested in the outcome of his actions. How then did he escape the cycle of birth and death and merge with the Supreme Brahman? 

Had there not been Kshatriyas like Lord Rama, who were invested in the outcome of this world, the demons would have destroyed Dharma long ago. This is why Guru Gobind Singh ji stated "When all peaceful means have failed, it is righteous to draw the sword". 

You have stated that the atman is eternal, it is the transcendent Self-God within. It continues on after physical death. This is precisely what I am saying. The atman is a part of the Supreme Brahman that has been separated from Him by the material world. Sikhi provides a way for the atman to overcome the barrier of the material world, and merge with the Supreme Brahman during this life. 

Heaven and hell are experienced in this life, depending on the actions one takes. Hell is experienced when the atman is far from the Supreme Brahman. "Karmi aapoh aapni, kaey nedhe kaey dhoor". By the karma of one's actions, some come closer to Him, while others drift further away.


----------



## Satyaban

Sherdil ji,

The Ramayana is a story about a heroic king who was depicted as the perfect man, but it is a story and not scripture, yet full of metaphors.

The Vedas say to be desireless and the Patanjali yoga sutras say to be unattached to anything in this temporal ever changing world so I will accept that.

There are few exceptions to do harm in the practice of ahimsa and defense is one.

Let me ask you again, "What happens to the atman if a person fails to achieve the goals of the Sikh philosophy?"


----------



## Ambarsaria

Sherdil ji thanks for your contributions and posts in this thread. I have a comment regarding the following,





Sherdil said:


> ....
> A thief may find himself in prison. It's his own actions that put him there.
> 
> _But then we can't act against Hukam. So it was his destiny to end up in prison_. ..


_It appears you are somehow presenting that stealing is against some absolute truth (hukam) in creation.  We need to recognize that hukam is unwavering without regard for time or people or other life forms.  I am sure there is land or collection of thieves where no one ends up in a jail. Sending people to jail is a human concept and may not have a 100% relationship to hukam. Look around you and spot thieves who never go to jail! Some will say the one in jail is because of karma and another not in jail is due to karma as well. Many a times it is a matter of getting caught, having good lawyers, etc. Stealing is a triviality in terms of any relationship to hukam.  As a matter of fact many an action fall in similar space. Karma (as well as destiny) as an argument presented in this thread is logically devoid and basically void. I will comment further separately on that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAU5MTXmAPY#aid=P8KO6-4CTvQ

_ Cuckoo did not go to bird jail, got charged for stealing, destruction of life, being squatter in another's property, etc!_

_Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## angrisha

Satyaban said:


> Sherdil ji,
> 
> The Ramayana is a story about a heroic king who was depicted as the perfect man, but it is a story and not scripture, yet full of metaphors.
> 
> The Vedas say to be desireless and the Patanjali yoga sutras say to be unattached to anything in this temporal ever changing world so I will accept that.
> 
> There are few exceptions to do harm in the practice of ahimsa and defense is one.
> 
> Let me ask you again, "What happens to the atman if a person fails to achieve the goals of the Sikh philosophy?"




This probably my take, but i dont think there really are any set goals that one can take. SGGS is not a recipe book which all the indgretaints have to be added in order to achieve an end. Invariabily bani teaches us (me) that the  path is hard to replicate. 

The goals or suggestions such as 'simran' are like guide posts not absolute. If person or any jee is able to reach that mirged state.... ppl interpret  it as no matter what you are release from your body... after that there is no clear cut explinatin (or if there is one I choose it ignore it).... thus the whole point, which even during katha ive herad said so many times.... you cant worry about whats going to happen in the future because you have no idea whats going to be there, live and make your practice now..... if you can find that contenment and connection now.... the future will sort ts self out. 

Just my opion.


----------



## Sherdil

Satyaban ji,

There are many Hindus who believe Lord Rama was God. He is worshipped as such. You say he is just a symbol of the perfect man, yet his actions were imperfect. Why then does Hinduism promote this figure as the perfect man / god, when his actions do not reflect what is taught in the Vedas?

Let it be known, that I have no reverence for Lord Rama. I have mentioned him, in the same manner in which he is mentioned in gurbani: An imperfect figure that was subservient to Akal, who was utilized to explain gurbani to a Hindu audience. 

I thought I was clear in answering your highlighted question. Liberation is felt when we are close to Akal, and Hell is felt when we are far from Him. I previously stated that those who become one with the Truth will live on, after this physical life, because the Truth is timeless. What is True will always be True. Those who are not able to realize this truth will come and go, like the rest of this transient world. 

I recognize my limitations as a mortal, and do not pretend to know more about the afterlife than this. You and some other people have put forth theories on Maya's various qualities and how Karma is created and distributed. However, you should realize that having such knowledge will not set you free, unless He has showered His grace upon you. As a mortal, you cannot do anything unless He has willed it. I humbly put forth the following shabadh:


This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji on Pannaa 4 

theerathh thap dhaeiaa dhath dhaan ||
Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity

jae ko paavai thil kaa maan ||
these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.

suniaa ma(n)niaa man keethaa bhaao ||
Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,

a(n)tharagath theerathh mal naao ||
cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.

sabh gun thaerae mai naahee koe ||
All virtues are Yours, Lord, I have none at all.

vin gun keethae bhagath n hoe ||
Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.

suasath aathh baanee baramaao ||
I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.

sath suhaan sadhaa man chaao ||
He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.

kavan s vaelaa vakhath kavan kavan thhith kavan vaar ||
What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

kavan s ruthee maahu kavan jith hoaa aakaar ||
What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

vael n paaeeaa pa(n)ddathee j hovai laekh puraan ||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

vakhath n paaeiou kaadheeaa j likhan laekh kuraan ||
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

thhith vaar naa jogee jaanai ruth maahu naa koee ||
The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

jaa karathaa sirat(h)ee ko saajae aapae jaanai soee ||
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

kiv kar aakhaa kiv saalaahee kio varanee kiv jaanaa ||
How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

naanak aakhan sabh ko aakhai eik dhoo eik siaanaa ||
O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

vaddaa saahib vaddee naaee keethaa jaa kaa hovai ||
Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

naanak jae ko aapa jaanai agai gaeiaa n sohai ||21||
O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||


----------



## Satyaban

Sherdil ji,

Devotees of Vishnu believe Rama to be an incarnation of Vishnu as they do with Krishna and maybe 7 or 8 others. As the Ramayana illustrates Vishnu takes human form when dharma must be restored.

I am a Saivite and we don't believe The Creator ever took human form but we have many shared beliefs, It may prove difficult to find two "Hindus", I am not fond of this word, who agree on everything.

"Those who are not able to realize this truth will come and go, like the rest of this transient world."

I see, if someone does not believe the soul is without beginning nor end there can be no cause for consideration of reincarnation. 

This is something the Vedas say concerning reincarnation:

"After death, the soul goes to the next world bearing in mind the subtle impressions of its deeds, and after reaping their harvest returns again to this world of action. Thus, he who has desires continues subject to rebirth."

The Satguru I cited earlier has this to say:
"Through the ages, reincarnation has been the great consoling element within Hinduism, eliminating the fear of death, explaining why one person is born a genius and another an idiot. We are not the body in which we live but the immortal soul which inhabits many bodies in its evolutionary journey through samsara. After death we continue to exist in unseen worlds, enjoying or suffering the harvest of earthly deeds until it comes time for yet another physical rebirth. Because certain karmas can be resolved only in the physical world, we must enter another physical body to continue our evolution. The actions set in motion in previous lives form the tendencies of and conditions of the next. Reincarnation is  ceases when karma is resolved. God is realized  and moksha attained."


----------



## Harry Haller

Satyabanji

if I may offer a different perspective, , 

Through the ages, acceptance has been the great consoling element within Sikhism, eliminating the fear of death, explaining why one person is born a genius and another an idiot. We are the body in which we live not the supposed immortal soul which inhabits many bodies in its evolutionary journey through samsara. After death we do not continue to exist in unseen worlds, we do not enjoy or suffer the harvest of earthly deeds until it comes time for yet another physical rebirth. Because all karmas can be resolved only in the physical world, and only here and now, The actions set in motion in previous parts of our only life form the tendencies of and conditions of the next part of our only life. life ceases when hukam resolves . God can be realized and moksha attained at any time, on any day, but it is not a race to be won, it is a constant and vigilant battle to live by the truth."


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## Ambarsaria

Let us revisit the commonalities between two polarized views of Karma and what they lead to.

*Karma in Sikhism:*


Your actions
Your actions in the context of all before now and after
Creation and consonance
Example: In Sikhism you are who you are based on parts of,
All before you including your parents, grandparents and so on
The creation and various instances in time affecting positively and negatively the creative influences
Say cosmic rays creating gene mutations
In-breeding creating gene mutations
so on
 
With that as heritage you are you are based on how you act with all that is around you including fellow human being, life in general and creation at large
 
When you die any born of you or others follow similar path
In a way at birth you are minutely re-incarnating parts of many others physically and otherwise from all that has happened before your birth
You are not a ditto copy of an "Integral single soul" as a whole that has just found a new body
You are creation of a very large segments of small disparate entities both physically and otherwise
*Sikhism notes*:


_Where you are born is not a curse, a reward or continuation of a single source (soul) that was previously a lizzard or something else and now is re-incarnated as a human being_
_When you die you do not become a snake or toad based on your actions during your life_
_Your body gets recycled and becomes part of other life forms or becomes *part of* other human being through your offspring
_
_Your soul or virtual part of you continues through many others who you related to in your life whether far or near_
 
*NOT Sikhism but purported in Hinduism, Sanataana Dharma, etc.:*


A soul continues as a unit entity and keeps transforming as a unit into various life forms
The proverbial 84 lakh or 8.4 million joons (life forms)
Example:
You are hoarder of money as a human being you will be born as a Snake
You are a butcher, you will be born as an animal to be butchered
and so on, life after life in an incarnating cycle
 
 
You are born into a rich family, it is a reward to your soul who may have helped someone in need a way back
You are born into a destitute family it is a curse or punishment for your bad actions in the past
You are born with disabilities or with one eye, no hearing, cleft palate, etc., it is a curse being executed for your soul's past bad actions
_*How people fail to see the rationale for such thinking is beyond me as I see it as a way for*_;
Managing and establishing societies based on hierarchies and castes
Children born to the Brahmins were fortunate and oh so because they came from wonderful souls
Children born in shudras (untouchables) were born into cursed families and for ever so destined
 
These are societal systems set up by the have's against have not's
These are societal systems set up to keep control of the have not's in case they wanted to have
_Imagine a society where all had same life style, provisions for life and so on,_
_This whole system of dogmas will collapse and nature will show in human life as an entity that creates equals and not based on curses or rewards of a soul traveling in time to be punished or rewarded
_
 
_We can conclude that re-incarnation centric systems of religion or thought are "Conservative" or "right wing" collectives based on suppressing the weak and empowering the rulers_
_Nothing else_
 
_Sikhism on the other hand is pluralistic and close to being more of a socialistic doctrine_
_It is not socialistic as it encourages hard work and allows one to earn rewards for it_
_It is socialistic in that it encourages you to share as much as you can with those in need_
 
 
 
I hope it adds to or helps with dialog in this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna

Jio, that post goes down in forum history as one of the clearest, most concise answers to a pressing and complex issue. Thank you for the seva!


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## Satyaban

Ambasaria:

It is good you used the word "purported" because what followed is not accurate.


A soul continues as a unit entity and keeps transforming as a unit into various life forms 

The proverbial 84 lakh or 8.4 million joons (life forms) 
Example: 
You are hoarder of money as a human being you will be born as a Snake 
You are a butcher, you will be born as an animal to be butchered 
and so on, life after life in an incarnating cycle 

You are born into a rich family, it is a reward to your soul who may have helped someone in need a way back 
You are born into a destitute family it is a curse or punishment for your bad actions in the past 
You are born with disabilities or with one eye, no hearing, cleft palate, etc., it is a curse being executed for your soul's past bad actions"


What you say is not only passed being over simplified it is wrong. It is not a system of reward and punishment, but a law of cause and effect which also assists in the evolution of the soul. There are many factors in rebirth to include gunas.

We can not be centered in this life and its dualities of "good and bad" to begin to understand much larger truths than in this temporal world.



"Managing and establishing societies based on hierarchies and castes 

Children born to the Brahmins were fortunate and oh so because they came from wonderful souls 
Children born in shudras (untouchables) were born into cursed families and for ever so destined 
These are societal systems set up by the have's against have not's 
These are societal systems set up to keep control of the have not's in case they wanted to have 

_Imagine a society where all had same life style, provisions for life and so on,_ 

_This whole system of dogmas will collapse and nature will show in human life as an entity that creates equals and not based on curses or rewards of a soul traveling in time to be punished or rewarded_

_We can conclude that re-incarnation centric systems of religion or thought are "Conservative" or "right wing" collectives based on suppressing the weak and empowering the rulers_ 

_Nothing else"_
_Here also we are hung up on relating everything to the ever changing temporal world of maya._ If you place so much importance of one's station in life everyone moves through these in many lives, so it is rather democratic don't you think. The "Golden Rule" should absolutely be followed for one's own sake.

I don't know that much about Sikhism, which is why I am here, and I don't tell Sikhs what their faith is so don't do that to me, okay?


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## Satyaban

Ishna said:


> Jio, that post goes down in forum history as one of the clearest, most concise answers to a pressing and complex issue. Thank you for the seva!


 
Post I'm sorry I didn't see the commonalities on reincarnation in that post. I present my "beliefs" and why I hold them. I use the word beliefs because I have faith in what  the ancient rishis, sages and saints have learned from their intimate contact with The Creator. I believe this with my heart.

I can't expect or tell others what to believe as me nor would I want to. My faith tells me all religions are good, all have bedrock commonalities. The end of our journeys is the same but our path may cross then diverge but reach the same place.

These are matters of faith and belief and I do not intend to tell anyone else they are wrong.

I think the post you praise was edging to bombast and shallow.


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## Sherdil

Satyaban said:


> I don't know that much about Sikhism, which is why I am here, and I don't tell Sikhs what their faith is so don't do that to me, okay?



Actually, you have been telling us what our faith is this whole thread. If you want to learn, then just sit back and read the posts. 

FYI, neither Ambasaria nor Ishna ji were directing their posts towards you, so calm down. 

Read the title of the forum. It says "Sikh Philosophy Network".

If you want to interject your own beliefs, then be prepared to defend them.


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## Sherdil

IMO, the idea of reincarnation is a made up theory to explain why the world isn't fair. It isn't based on any tangible proof. 

It is an attempt by people, who think they are smarter than they really are, to unlock the workings of the Universe.

They cannot even predict what the weather will be 2 weeks from now, yet they have devised this grand scheme of how the soul comes and goes, and enters various bodies before finally achieving liberation. At long last! Hallelujah!

The wise recognize that there are certain things about the Universe that are beyond human comprehension. They recognize that these things are inconsequential because they are beyond our control. 

Many theories put forth on the life here-after, but how will that benefit you in your life right now?


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## Ambarsaria

Let us revisit some facts about karma/reincarnation/transmigration in the context of real life.




Satyaban will look at the above picture and may say it is based on Karma's of the child. A punishment for past actions that the child somehow is accountable for. Sikhism would say this is part of creation. There would be more such situations when we do not live in consonance. The issue would never be of the child's creation but the parents, the community and mankind collectively if we do not support or help or prevent such situations. Catholics would say no one should stop such child from being born. 

Now let us look at another picture.



Another some will say it is all about karma/reincarnation/transmigration in the context of real life. Satyaban ji in a kind way shared an incident where he lost most of the precious he had in a fire. Justifying as to foundations of his beliefs he faced it calling it an opportunity for a fresh start and an opportunity to lose attachment. Pious as it may be unless fire insurance helped cover losses to some extent or other savings or resources, it hardly makes any link to Karma/reincarnation etc. He had a chance to restart. The people in the picture never had a start.

The message for all of us is that we need to be cognizance of consonance and be in tune as selves, as collectives, as nations and get over all this Karma/reincarnation/transmigration hocus-pocus.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Abneet

Ambarsaria said:


> Let us revisit some facts about karma/reincarnation/transmigration in the context of real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satyaban will look at the above picture and may say it is based on Karma's of the child. A punishment for past actions that the child somehow is accountable for. Sikhism would say this is part of creation. There would be more such situations when we do not live in consonance. The issue would never be of the child's creation but the parents, the community and mankind collectively if we do not support or help or prevent such situations. Catholics would say no one should stop such child from being born.
> 
> Now let us look at another picture.
> 
> 
> 
> Another some will say it is all about karma/reincarnation/transmigration in the context of real life. Satyaban ji in a kind way shared an incident where he lost most of the precious he had in a fire. Justifying as to foundations of his beliefs he faced it calling it an opportunity for a fresh start and an opportunity to lose attachment. Pious as it may be unless fire insurance helped cover losses to some extent or other savings or resources, it hardly makes any link to Karma/reincarnation etc. He had a chance to restart. The people in the picture never had a start.
> 
> The message for all of us is that we need to be cognizance of consonance and be in tune as selves, as collectives, as nations and get over all this Karma/reincarnation/transmigration hocus-pocus.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



explain why reincarnation is mentioned numerous times in the Guru Granth Sahib? There is proof of reincarnation already. There is reincarnation but some just don't want to accept the fact and that's alright but Guru Nanak Devi Ji touched on the topic clearly and still many chose to not believe. Your call. If you want to call yourself a Sikh than follow all the principles of Sikhism you can't just be saying oh I believe in this but no not this and pick out things you don't believe in....


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## Ambarsaria

Abneet said:


> explain why reincarnation is mentioned numerous times in the Guru Granth Sahib? There is proof of reincarnation already. There is reincarnation but some just don't want to accept the fact and that's alright but Guru Nanak Devi Ji touched on the topic clearly and still many chose to not believe. Your call. If you want to call yourself a Sikh than follow all the principles of Sikhism you can't just be saying oh I believe in this but no not this and pick out things you don't believe in....


Abneet ji thanks for your post. 

Please quote where it is supported what you say in SGGS in a complete shabad.  I will be happy to be corrected. 

Guru ji and others refer to a lot of subjects as the level of darkness based on this blind or ill beliefs was rampant and it still is given misguidance by so many babeys, brahmins, etc., in present day Punjab and many a Sikh.

Perhaps you can tell us what you re-incarnated from or what your previous joon/incarnation was. All I know is I have/had parents and grand parents and so who were born and grew up in various times like any other parents and grandparents. Where do you break this line to be re-incarnated from other than being born from a human being. Are you proposing that your parents gave you just a body and your soul came from an animal as the likelihood of your soul being of a human based on estimated number of life forms is 1 in 87 crores (1 in 8.7 million).

Hurry up as you do not want to transform into a lesser life form before you get mukti in this life time.  From what I understand the proponents of reincarnation state that this is what happens.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Abneet

Ambarsaria said:


> Abneet ji thanks for your post.
> 
> Please quote where it is supported what you say in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in a complete shabad.  I will be happy to be corrected.
> 
> Guru ji and others refer to a lot of subjects as the level of darkness based on this blind or ill beliefs was rampant and it still is given misguidance by so many babeys, brahmins, etc., in present day Punjab and many a Sikh.
> 
> Perhaps you can tell us what you re-incarnated from or what your previous joon/incarnation was. All I know is I have/had parents and grand parents and so who were born and grew up in various times like any other parents and grandparents. Where do you break this line to be re-incarnated from other than being born from a human being. Are you proposing that your parents gave you just a body and your soul came from an animal as the likelihood of your soul being of a human based on estimated number of life forms is 1 in 87 crores (1 in 8.7 million).
> 
> Hurry up as you do not want to transform into a lesser life form before you get mukti in this life time.  From what I understand the proponents of reincarnation state that this is what happens.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Sorry if my post sounded like an attack before. There are countless times the word "reincarnation" is mentioned and yes I am reading from a English translation of the GGS yourself can take the time to go read, but the main point is Sikhs have a strong belief in reincarnation. 

First lets say you don't believe in reincarnation than whats your outside-Sikhi belief? Proof of reincarnation has been around for a long time. Scientists in India doing research finding how some kids find out something about past-life. Much much more discoveries have been found. If you things Guru ji's words have been misinterpreted than either way they were right. So that's clear hopefully.

We like in the 21'st century and we still have Sikhs doubting one of our big beliefs in terms of what happens in afterlife. The reincarnation of 8.4 Million species is a hard thought to actually believe in now days. Surely one day the number of species will above that but doesn't mean to stop believing in reincarnation. We live a bad life we come back and try again simple as that. The whole process on reincarnation is still not clear I'll be honest about that. There are a lot of loopholes in the belief system of reincarnation. For example in cases like abortion how is that dealt. Why would God let me die in the womb after going through the whole cycle and having one more chance to please Him. Hard to get a answer to that one.

Being born again with a soul is a grace by Waheguru as we are here to again try to please Him. Yes my parents gave me a body (don't know what your were trying to say sorry ha). I might not figure out what my previous life was but I can tell you from family having very close connections with sant ji's that some when reach a very high spiritual life at a ending point of their life they know when they are going to leave this world. There's that. Whether you believe or don't believe in reincarnation you should still believe in living a good earnest life and connecting with the One and with that done why should one even worry about afterlife/reincarnation?


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## Satyaban

I have learned some more about Sikhism from this conversation. Some of the comments were most informative while some added er well not much.

What I didn't know was that this is such a polarizing issue among Sikhs, enough to cause some to get rather up tight.

I don't take offense and when it comes I refuse delivery and like an item that was delivered to me that I did not order I simply return it. I was surprised that were childish in their response when they obviously did not read mine.

I have stated my beliefs and am not going to repeat myself so I am putting this conversation to bed.

Ambasaria: "Satyaban ji in a kind way shared an incident where he lost most of the precious he had in a fire. Justifying as to foundations of his beliefs he faced it calling it an opportunity for a fresh start and an opportunity to lose attachment. Pious as it may be unless fire insurance helped cover losses to some extent or other savings or resources, it hardly makes any link to Karma/reincarnation etc."

I was not put out because it brought some karma back into balance, I learned a spiritual lesson and no I did not have fire insurance of any kind and my savings non-existent except for maybe $200. The American Red Cross gave me $375. I didn't mean to mislead but my possessions were few, my computer, back-ups clothes and some other items bed etc. My possessions are still few and would not shed a tear if I lost them again.


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## Harry Haller

> Why would God let me die in the womb after going through the whole cycle and having one more chance to please Him. Hard to get a answer to that one.


 not really, although the question itself leaves much to be desired.
I will answer from my own perspective, as to what my own understanding is, as that is all I have

Firstly god does not let anything happen, we have divine rules, like gravity which dictate what happens rather than some old beardy watching a mock up of the world on TV with a giant remote control, shouting out 'ok your toast' or 'hey your a great person, have a Mercedes Benz'. Whatever happens, happens because of either consonance or disconsonance, smoke heavily, get lung disease, drive fast, have more accidents, have lots of sex, get STD's. 

as for one more chance to please him, well, this is just too Abrahamic for me, so by your reckoning, we are all on this earth to please him, because his ego is so huge, he demands respect and bowing and scraping, and we please him by growing our hair, sticking fingers in our ears and mumbling, or by paying people to read his word for days on end, so we can all feel good about ourselves, or by washing flags in milk, I could go on.....

finding consonance just isnt good enough for some people, those that sit in the lap of god, do not even know about it, its just normal for them, no drama, no ceremony, no ritual, no rubbish, simplicity in itself


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## Inderjeet Kaur

harry haller said:


> not really, although the question itself leaves much to be desired.
> I will answer from my own perspective, as to what my own understanding is, as that is all I have
> 
> Firstly god does not let anything happen, we have divine rules, like gravity which dictate what happens rather than some old beardy watching a mock up of the world on TV with a giant remote control, shouting out 'ok your toast' or 'hey your a great person, have a Mercedes Benz'. Whatever happens, happens because of either consonance or disconsonance, smoke heavily, get lung disease, drive fast, have more accidents, have lots of sex, get STD's.
> 
> as for one more chance to please him, well, this is just too Abrahamic for me, so by your reckoning, we are all on this earth to please him, because his ego is so huge, he demands respect and bowing and scraping, and we please him by growing our hair, sticking fingers in our ears and mumbling, or by paying people to read his word for days on end, so we can all feel good about ourselves, or by washing flags in milk, I could go on.....
> 
> finding consonance just isnt good enough for some people, those that sit in the lap of god, do not even know about it, its just normal for them, no drama, no ceremony, no ritual, no rubbish, simplicity in itself



Harry, I thought I was done commenting on this thread, but after reading what you wrote here, I need to say, Thank you.  This is incredibly and unself-consciously beautiful.


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## Sherdil

Abneet said:


> explain why reincarnation is mentioned numerous times in the Guru Granth Sahib? There is proof of reincarnation already. There is reincarnation but some just don't want to accept the fact and that's alright but Guru Nanak Devi Ji touched on the topic clearly and still many chose to not believe. Your call. If you want to call yourself a Sikh than follow all the principles of Sikhism you can't just be saying oh I believe in this but no not this and pick out things you don't believe in....



Lol. Please show us the proof of reincarnation.

Guru ji was focused on getting results. If that meant framing gurbani in a manner in which the Hindu populace would understand, then so be it. 

If I write: "The moorakhs slander and sin, they are forever on Santa's naughty list."

It does not mean that I believe in Santa or a naughty list. I have said this to get people to realize the error of their ways. 

People who take things at face value will see it as evidence of a Santa Clause, who is constantly watching our actions from the North Pole. 

I think it's insulting to believe that Guru ji gave any credence to such a faulty philosophy.


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## Sherdil

Abneet said:


> Proof of reincarnation has been around for a long time. Scientists in India doing research finding how some kids find out something about past-life. Much much more discoveries have been found.



"Scientists in India" = Shamu and Ramu, the village idiots. 

"Some kids found out something about past lives" = Made up a story 

"Much much more discoveries have been found" = Take my word for it, even if proof is lacking.


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## Sherdil

Ambarsaria said:


> Let us revisit some facts about karma/reincarnation/transmigration in the context of real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satyaban will look at the above picture and may say it is based on Karma's of the child. A punishment for past actions that the child somehow is accountable for.



Duh! It's so obvious! That child must have done something to that vulture in its past life! lol

Don't feel too bad. After getting eaten by the vulture, the child's karma will be settled, and he can move closer to moksha. 

No need to get all emotional about it. That fosters attachment. 

Far be it from anyone to go to Africa and set up langar to help these people. That would cause us to be invested in the outcome of our actions!


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## Abneet

Sherdil said:


> "Scientists in India" = Shamu and Ramu, the village idiots.
> 
> "Some kids found out something about past lives" = Made up a story
> 
> "Much much more discoveries have been found" = Take my word for it, even if proof is lacking.



I don't really look upon these stories I'm just showing you samples. You would think that most stories are fake but some cannot be rebutted but there's ignorant Sikhs that only like what their beliefs suit the so let it be. Like I said before reincarnation is a Sikh's belief but we shouldn't worry about the future instead we should shape up our present day life and let WAheguru take care of what happens in afterlife. As we see now everyone is pointing fingers when it comes to translating the GGS and what it says on the topic of reincarnation. Sikhs believe in reincarnation end of that.


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## angrisha

Abneet said:


> As we see now everyone is pointing fingers when it comes to translating the GGS and what it says on the topic of reincarnation.* Sikhs believe in reincarnation end of that.*



Its not so much translating as it is an interpretation... 

Also there is no actual scientific proof on any of this as you claim, there have been no major studies done on reincarnation, those that I have found are individuals making observations (i.e. no better than anything me or you are saying here today)... If you can show me an actual scientific journal I will consider reading it, up till that point there is nothing based in science that proves anything.... 

.... and I didnt realize that Sikhi was so black and white....


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## Satyaban

After reading the most recent comment I had to return.

This is about belief, spiritual meaning believing in the unseen that is why the term "religious faith" is so common.

We can't say anyone is wrong headed in this, no one can prove empirically that God exists and we can not apply logic to a being that we can not begin to comprehend.

Some of us are explaining what we believe but unfortunately some are not satisfied with that and are trying to beat up what others believe.


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## spnadmin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlgYxbtJb1Y


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## Satyaban

spnadmin said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlgYxbtJb1Y


 
I have never thought of that song in that way before. Thank you.


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## Admin

Going forward... http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/do-you-believe-in-reincarnation-or-transmigration.36845/


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## PrincenPrincessGurmukhk

Ishna said:


> I'm curious to get a feel for the sangat's votes.


 I would say non of the above thats why im not voting any particular one. However one of the above is similar to what i believe reincarnation could be and that is rebirth with karma

Gurfateh


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## N30S1NGH

According to my understanding, when we perceive or identify ourselves with this world in duality as separate from God/Vahiguru as relative duality with our egoic conditioned separate I, then there is reincarnation, transmigration.

But when we perceive or identify this world as one absolute non dual truth- God/Vahiguru in all, all in God/Vahiguru and have deeper realization of it then there is no reincarnation or transmigration, hell or heaven, all separate distinctions, fragmented reality in perception cease to exist. It's one absolute truth in all, all in one.

Reincarnation or transmigration or this world has no separate reality on its own. It's individual perception- I consciousness validates/invalidates this existence of this world, reincarnation or transmigration not the other way around based on live experience.


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## Harry Haller

N30S1NGH said:


> According to my understanding, when we perceive or identify ourselves with this world in duality as separate from God/Vahiguru as relative duality with our egoic conditioned separate I, then there is reincarnation, transmigration.
> 
> But when we perceive or identify this world as one absolute non dual truth- God/Vahiguru in all, all in God/Vahiguru and have deeper realization of it then there is no reincarnation or transmigration, hell or heaven, all separate distinctions, fragmented reality in perception cease to exist. It's one absolute truth in all, all in one.
> 
> Reincarnation or transmigration or this world has no separate reality on its own. It's individual perception- I consciousness validates/invalidates this existence of this world, reincarnation or transmigration not the other way around based on live experience.



my understanding of your post is that you are suggesting the subjects in debate have little to do with death and rebirth, could you clarify?


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## N30S1NGH

harry haller said:


> my understanding of your post is that you are suggesting the subjects in debate have little to do with death and rebirth, could you clarify?



Yes, in my opinion... this needs to be looked from individual live experience perspective not as doctrine, unfortunately many people have turned these relatives/realities/truths- reincarnation, transmigration, hell, heaven into abstract conceptual philosophy, abstract absolute belief system,  doctrine etc but forgotten to investigate within ourselves beyond our conditioned conceptual belief mindset see it for themselves if they exist, have direct live experience with it.

Everyone can relate to deep sleep some investigation may need to be done and ask ourselves truly within if this whole world, reincarnation, transmigration, death, rebirth really exist as absolute reality? If yes, what happens in deep sleep? Where does it go?  I identification-illusory identification with world is not there so therefore no separate relative fragmented reality- world, reincarnation, karam, transmigration exist its not validated by I pure consciousness in deep sleep. I may be in deep sleep but I -pure unconditioned consciousness is still there otherwise how does I(consciousness) surat) have a knowledge(gayat) that i had a good refresh sleep?

I consider absolute reality as something which never changes-unchanged-sat-truth which is always there-eternal beyond birth and death.

In great statements of Gurbani in sukhmani sahib in 21st asthpadi. Gurbani is talking about absolute reality perspective where reality is ONE not fragmented where reincarnation, transmigration simply don't exist in I pure unconditioned awakened perception. It may exist as relative realities for others but I who is perceiving absolute reality- this things does not exist so its not the world, transmigration, reincarnation validates/invalidates the expereince of existence to us its other way around-We as individuals do. Unfortunately, many people read the below gurbani great statements with seperate doctrine/philosophy out there somewhere rather bringing these statement in one absolute indivisible reality into one own deep meditative inquiry experience.

Here we go - (don't mind abhramic translation of lord translation- i would rather replace abhramic version of lord with lord in all, all in lord or absolute truth-sat with purpose of my clear understanding)

ਜਬ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥
जब अकारु इहु कछु न द्रिसटेता ॥
Jab akār ih kacẖẖ na ḏaristeṯā.
When this world had not yet appeared in any form,

ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਬ ਕਹ ਤੇ ਹੋਤਾ ॥
पाप पुंन तब कह ते होता ॥
Pāp punn ṯab kah ṯe hoṯā.
who then committed sins and performed good deeds?

ਜਬ ਧਾਰੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ॥
जब धारी आपन सुंन समाधि ॥
Jab ḏẖārī āpan sunn samāḏẖ.
When the Lord Himself was in Profound Samaadhi,

ਤਬ ਬੈਰ ਬਿਰੋਧ ਕਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਮਾਤਿ ॥
तब बैर बिरोध किसु संगि कमाति ॥
Ŧab bair biroḏẖ kis sang kamāṯ.
then against whom were hate and jealousy directed?

ਜਬ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਪਤ ॥
जब इस का बरनु चिहनु न जापत ॥
Jab is kā baran cẖihan na jāpaṯ.
When there was no color or shape to be seen,

ਤਬ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸਹਿ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥
तब हरख सोग कहु किसहि बिआपत ॥
Ŧab harakẖ sog kaho kisėh bi▫āpaṯ.
then who experienced joy and sorrow?

ਜਬ ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਆਪਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥
जब आपन आप आपि पारब्रहम ॥
Jab āpan āp āp pārbarahm.
When the Supreme Lord Himself was Himself All-in-all,

ਤਬ ਮੋਹ ਕਹਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਹੋਵਤ ਭਰਮ ॥
तब मोह कहा किसु होवत भरम ॥
Ŧab moh kahā kis hovaṯ bẖaram.
then where was emotional attachment, and who had doubts?

ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤੀਜਾ ॥
आपन खेलु आपि वरतीजा ॥
Āpan kẖel āp varṯījā.
He Himself has staged His own drama;

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥
नानक करनैहारु न दूजा ॥१॥
Nānak karnaihār na ḏūjā. ||1||
O Nanak, there is no other Creator. ||1||

ਜਬ ਹੋਵਤ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਵਲ ਧਨੀ ॥
जब होवत प्रभ केवल धनी ॥
Jab hovaṯ parabẖ keval ḏẖanī.
When there was only God the Master,

ਤਬ ਬੰਧ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸ ਕਉ ਗਨੀ ॥
तब बंध मुकति कहु किस कउ गनी ॥
Ŧab banḏẖ mukaṯ kaho kis ka▫o ganī.
then who was called bound or liberated?

*ਜਬ ਏਕਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
जब एकहि हरि अगम अपार ॥
Jab ekėh har agam apār.
When there was only the Lord, Unfathomable and Infinite,

ਤਬ ਨਰਕ ਸੁਰਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਉਨ ਅਉਤਾਰ ॥
तब नरक सुरग कहु कउन अउतार ॥
Ŧab narak surag kaho ka▫un a▫uṯār.
then who entered hell, and who entered heaven? Who was avtar?*

ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥
Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,

ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥
तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e.
then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?

ਜਬ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਅਪਨੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰੈ ॥
जब आपहि आपि अपनी जोति धरै ॥
Jab āpėh āp apnī joṯ ḏẖarai.
When He held His Own Light unto Himself,

ਤਬ ਕਵਨ ਨਿਡਰੁ ਕਵਨ ਕਤ ਡਰੈ ॥
तब कवन निडरु कवन कत डरै ॥
Ŧab kavan nidar kavan kaṯ darai.
then who was fearless, and who was afraid?

ਆਪਨ ਚਲਿਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥
आपन चलित आपि करनैहार ॥
Āpan cẖaliṯ āp karnaihār.
He Himself is the Performer in His own plays;

ਨਾਨਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ ॥੨॥
नानक ठाकुर अगम अपार ॥२॥
Nānak ṯẖākur agam apār. ||2||
O Nanak, the Lord Master is Unfathomable and Infinite. ||2||

*ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਸੁਖ ਆਪਨ ਆਸਨ ॥
अबिनासी सुख आपन आसन ॥
Abẖināsī sukẖ āpan āsan.
When the Immortal Lord was seated at ease,

ਤਹ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਾ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ॥
तह जनम मरन कहु कहा बिनासन ॥
Ŧah janam maran kaho kahā bināsan.
then where was birth, death and dissolution?*


ਜਬ ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
जब पूरन करता प्रभु सोइ ॥
Jab pūran karṯā parabẖ so▫e.
When there was only God, the Perfect Creator,

ਤਬ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
तब जम की त्रास कहहु किसु होइ ॥
Ŧab jam kī ṯarās kahhu kis ho▫e.
then who was afraid of death?


ਜਬ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਏਕਾ ॥
जब अबिगत अगोचर प्रभ एका ॥
Jab abigaṯ agocẖar parabẖ ekā.
When there was only the One Lord, unmanifest and incomprehensible,


*ਤਬ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤ ਕਿਸੁ ਪੂਛਤ ਲੇਖਾ ॥
तब चित्र गुपत किसु पूछत लेखा ॥
Ŧab cẖiṯar gupaṯ kis pūcẖẖaṯ lekẖā.
then who was called to account by the recording scribes of the conscious and the subconscious?*

ਜਬ ਨਾਥ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਅਗਾਧੇ ॥
जब नाथ निरंजन अगोचर अगाधे ॥
Jab nāth niranjan agocẖar agāḏẖe.
When there was only the Immaculate, Incomprehensible, Unfathomable Master,

ਤਬ ਕਉਨ ਛੁਟੇ ਕਉਨ ਬੰਧਨ ਬਾਧੇ ॥
तब कउन छुटे कउन बंधन बाधे ॥
Ŧab ka▫un cẖẖute ka▫un banḏẖan bāḏẖe.
then who was emancipated, and who was held in bondage?

ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਅਚਰਜਾ ॥
आपन आप आप ही अचरजा ॥
Āpan āp āp hī acẖarjā.
He Himself, in and of Himself, is the most wonderful.

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਨ ਰੂਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਉਪਰਜਾ ॥੩॥
नानक आपन रूप आप ही उपरजा ॥३॥
Nānak āpan rūp āp hī uparjā. ||3||
O Nanak, He Himself created His Own Form. ||3||


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## Tejwant Singh

N30S1NGH said:


> According to my understanding, when we perceive or identify ourselves with this world in duality as separate from God/Vahiguru as relative duality with our egoic conditioned separate I, then there is reincarnation, transmigration.
> 
> But when we perceive or identify this world as one absolute non dual truth- God/Vahiguru in all, all in God/Vahiguru and have deeper realization of it then there is no reincarnation or transmigration, hell or heaven, all separate distinctions, fragmented reality in perception cease to exist. It's one absolute truth in all, all in one.
> 
> Reincarnation or transmigration or this world has no separate reality on its own. It's individual perception- I consciousness validates/invalidates this existence of this world, reincarnation or transmigration not the other way around based on live experience.


N30S1NGH ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I did not understand anything  from your post about the subject being discussed.

Would you be kind enough to explain this in lay man's terms for people like me?

Secondly, please explain the difference between God/Vahiguru in your own thoughts. The former is the name of a deity (which Sikhi has none) and the latter is the expression of bewilderment of the wow and awe factors of Ik Ong Kaar that we are surrounded by. This is also the reason the Abrahamic translation of the Shabad you posted in your other post is totally misleading. If you understand Gurmukhi, which I suspect you do, please check Professor Sahib Singh's interpretation and share your findings with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh

Tejwant Singh said:


> N30S1NGH ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance but I did not understand anything  from your post about the subject being discussed.
> 
> Would you be kind enough to explain this in lay man's terms for people like me?
> 
> Secondly, please explain the difference between God/Vahiguru in your own thoughts. The former is the name of a deity (which Sikhi has none) and the latter is the expression of bewilderment of the wow and awe factors of Ik Ong Kaar that we are surrounded by. This is also the reason the Abrahamic translation of the Shabad you posted in your other post is totally misleading. If you understand Gurmukhi, which I suspect you do, please check Professor Sahib Singh's interpretation and share your findings with us.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh



Tejwant ji,

What has your question got to do with the subject matter of this discussion?

whats wrong with using the word God?  when you say "the former is the name of a Diety"...that is what YOU think....that is what some others may thing...but that is NOT what EVERYONE thinks..*.the word God means whatever your mind can comprehend at any given moment in your spiritual journey towards God/Waheguru/Satnam'Ram/Allahs realization...*

whether the interpretation used the Word God/Waheguru/ik ong kaar...the message is pretty much clear.

because  no matter what word you use, none of use (apart from a few very blessed souls) will know what God/Waheguru/Ram/Allah/Satnaam/Ikongkaar/ is..


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## Tejwant Singh

chazSingh said:


> Tejwant ji,
> 
> What has your question got to do with the subject matter of this discussion?
> 
> whats wrong with using the word God?  when you say "the former is the name of a Diety"...that is what YOU think....that is what some others may thing...but that is NOT what EVERYONE thinks..*.the word God means whatever your mind can comprehend at any given moment in your spiritual journey towards God/Waheguru/Satnam'Ram/Allahs realization...*
> 
> whether the interpretation used the Word God/Waheguru/ik ong kaar...the message is pretty much clear.
> 
> because  no matter what word you use, none of use (apart from a few very blessed souls) will know what God/Waheguru/Ram/Allah/Satnaam/Ikongkaar/ is..



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem a bit annoyed about my post for the reasons only known to you and it also seems you want to start an argument rather than a fruitful interaction through which all of us can learn from your wisdom.

 I would rather wait for N30S1NGH ji, to whom my post is addressed and then your precious input can be discussed.

Patience is a virtue and I am sure you are aware about that as you claim to find serenity  through your 'meditation'.

Why so impatient then?  

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> You seem a bit annoyed about my post for the reasons only known to you and it also seems you want to start an argument rather than a fruitful interaction through which all of us can learn from your wisdom.
> 
> I would rather wait for N30S1NGH ji, to whom my post is addressed and then your precious input can be discussed.
> 
> Patience is a virtue and I am sure you are aware about that as you claim to find serenity  through your 'meditation'.
> 
> Why so impatient then?
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh



there is no request for an argument Ji  and i am not annoyed in any way

May my God / My Waheguru / My Lord / My creator / My companion / My Friend / My sustainer / My Guide / My Guiding Light  bless me with more patience


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## Tejwant Singh

chazSingh said:


> there is no request for an argument Ji  and i am not annoyed in any way
> 
> May my God / My Waheguru / My Lord / My creator / My companion / My Friend / My sustainer / My Guide / My Guiding Light  bless me with more patience



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for admitting that your God is a deity and he/she is your guiding light unlike in Sikhi because that is what the word God means in English language.


Tejwant Singh


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## Luckysingh

chazSingh said:


> whats wrong with using the word God?  when you say "the former is the name of a Diety"...that is what YOU think....that is what some others may thing...but that is NOT what EVERYONE thinks..*.the word God means whatever your mind can comprehend at any given moment in your spiritual journey towards God/Waheguru/Satnam'Ram/Allahs realization...*
> 
> whether the interpretation used the Word God/Waheguru/ik ong kaar...the message is pretty much clear.
> 
> because  no matter what word you use, none of use (apart from a few very blessed souls) will know what God/Waheguru/Ram/Allah/Satnaam/Ikongkaar/ is..


 
absoluteley nothing wrong using the term God.
He has no name, no form, no ego, no identity........
That's why you may praise him with as many names as possible, but the scribe will be endless because it will never end....
Yet, here we Tejwant ji teaching us that you are not sikh if you use the term God, because that is what other faiths mean as a deity !!
so "God" is trademarked with copyright for christians or non-sikhs ?

Does sikhi teach you to be prejudice or be anti-christian..anti-hindu ??

I really have no idea how some members call themselves sikh and claim to have faith in the one and only guru granth !


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## Harry Haller

Luckysingh said:


> absoluteley nothing wrong using the term God.
> He has no name, no form, no ego, no identity........
> That's why you may praise him with as many names as possible, but the scribe will be endless because it will never end....
> Yet, here we Tejwant ji teaching us that you are not sikh if you use the term God, because that is what other faiths mean as a deity !!
> so "God" is trademarked with copyright for christians or non-sikhs ?
> 
> Does sikhi teach you to be prejudice or be anti-christian..anti-hindu ??
> 
> I really have no idea how some members call themselves sikh and claim to have faith in the one and only guru granth !



I think you are highly intelligent Luckyji, much more intelligent than me anyway, (actually that is not sarcasm, I am quite a base person), surely you can read between the lines and see where this is going, the protection of Sikhism from outside influences, the constant pushing that Akal Purakh does not have a huge beard and sandals and sit in judgement of everything offering divine forgiveness and salvation to all who bow before him.

It is important for readers of this forum, many of whom will be looking at Sikhism for the first time to be aware of this, we do not fear Akal Purakh, we do not try and please Akal Purakh through rituals and ceremony, it is different for us and we have a different relationship with Akal Purakh to the one that Hindus or Christians may have.

We all have a voice on the forum, there are those, like myself, Tejwantji, who resent the continued dilution of pure Sikh thinking with Vedic, Christian and Islamic philosophies, and there are those like yourself, Chazji, for whom everything is a melting pot and all roads lead to Rome. On this forum no one is right and wrong, everyone has a view, and a voice, and a place. Sure we can debate whether individually our own feelings are within Sikhi or not, and through these debates not only can we ourselves learn, but those reading can learn too.

Let us never stop debating my friends, but let us try and keep our own personalities out of it.


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## Tejwant Singh

Luckysingh said:


> absoluteley nothing wrong using the term God.
> He has no name, no form, no ego, no identity........
> That's why you may praise him with as many names as possible, but the scribe will be endless because it will never end....
> Yet, here we Tejwant ji teaching us that you are not sikh if you use the term God, because that is what other faiths mean as a deity !!
> so "God" is trademarked with copyright for christians or non-sikhs ?
> 
> Does sikhi teach you to be prejudice or be anti-christian..anti-hindu ??
> 
> I really have no idea how some members call themselves sikh and claim to have faith in the one and only guru granth !



Lucky ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your post made me laugh, literally and I am serious about that and it was not to mock but to see your failure to grasp what I was trying to say and you are not the only one.

Let's start all over, once again.

Gurdwara used to be called Sikh Temple before but with the help of Sikhi awareness by many Sikhs, now people like PM's Cameron, Harper call it Gurdwara. Both did it in their message of Vaisakhi and later on PM Harper said the same during his visit to a Gurdwara in Vancouver with PM Modi.

Even President Obama called it a Gurdwara.

You would notice that I did not use the term 'Sikh Gurdwara' because Gurdwara is the 'place of worship' for Sikhs.

What Harry ji and I are trying to do is to get rid of Abrahamic mentality crept into Sikhi by the original translators who were Christian Missionaries that saw SGGS, our only Guru as our Bible, hence the biblical slant in the translations. This Abrahamic invasion continued from the Sikh Chelas of these translators. It is so much ingrained in us that SGPC officially recommends the translation by Sant Singh Khalsa who is a convert from the Judeo/Christian extraction and has penned the worst ever translations that most of the people copy and post here to prove their point and thought process. Hence, the Abrahamisation of our Only Guru continues, sad to say.

If Sikhi is a unique way of life to all of us who are Sikhs as it is, then isn't it our duty to change all the Abrahamised translations into Sikhi?

Yes, it is our duty and responsibility to take out the terms like  _God _and _Lord_ to define _Ik Ong Kaar_ because the former defines a deity and the latter a deity and a man with a few more quids  who can  buy it and call himself Lord which is  also used as a deity.

As Nirvana and Gurdwara have become the lexica of the cultures where ever the Sikhs reside, so should and will_ Ik Ong Kaar _to explain The Source of All There _IS_. In fact I wrote about the usage of the latter-_ Lord_ as _Ik Ong Kaar_ many years ago. The thread can be found here on SPN.

For the record, I have never accused any Sikh ever of not being a Sikh as someone implied quite emphatically in his post, but I always said  it is NOT Sikhi.

As the old saying goes," People who live in the glass houses should not change their clothes with the lights on". 

Let's discuss subjects not people.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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