# Hemkunt Sahib?



## International Akaali (Mar 20, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

I have read a lot lierature on how hemkunt sdhould not be hisotrical gurdwara for sikhism. It has things like Guru Gobind singh did bhagti with devi/devtai in previous lifes. I have a comment to make also/ at that previous time if he even had done bagati he was not even our guru at that time also. note: i am not saying he ever did. It has been said that this story has been made by hindu's etc. Also Hemkunt was only found about 50 years ago, if it was so historical was wasn't it found before.  

please give yout opinion


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## Arvind (Mar 20, 2005)

Dear Veer,

Without any reference to whether Gurudwara Hemkunt Sahib should be considered historical or not, let us see a few points as below:
1. Nankana Sahib: Guru Nanak Dev ji's birth place, where he spent his childhood. Then other places he worked etc. Could those be just discounted because Guru Sahib was not a Guru then?
2. Guru Nanak Dev ji did Udasis. I am of very strong opinion that lot of places he visited, those are places of importance for sikhs as well, but are totally ignored. And if  some soul does find out a building or writings of those times (belonging to Guru Nanak) just last year. Then may we refute why those were not discovered so many years ago, if they were really historical. btw, I am referring to Preet Mohan's ji work about Mecca places.

Guru Gobind Singh ji's writings are found to be influenced by mythological Gods e.g. Deh Shiva Var Moh ihe, and then also look at Chandee dee vaar, how does it make any difference to us. Does it?

What do u think?

Regards.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 21, 2005)

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das can say one thing. Going to Gurudwara is good as we serve manking there and learn Gurubani.

As per Gurmat,Going to any Gurudwara and seeking that this will give us punya is manmatt.The concept of pilgrimage does not exist in Panth.


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## drkhalsa (Mar 21, 2005)

> As per Gurmat,Going to any Gurudwara and seeking that this will give us punya is manmatt.The concept of pilgrimage does not exist in Panth.



totally agree with it 

recently a collegue from pakistan asked me about nankana sahib and was equating iyt with their mecca , and he said this is how they thnk of it 
this is totally a wrong concept as far as i know the only impertance of gurdwara is the congretion and oppetunity to contemplate and do service to other so ut could be done any where ( I mean any gurudawara)
Similar is the case for Golden temple, it the place whic was visited by lot of mahapurush and many jyots of our guru still it does not make it any thing like must do for a sikh and it was meant to be like that then why did our tenth guru ji never visted this place .

Jatinder Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 1, 2005)

Teerath..as a place of pilgrimage..as in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity..is a NO NO in Gurmatt and Gurbani.  Our TEERATH is the GUR-SHABAD...Shabad GURU....Guru Granth Ji.

In a way we are very lucky that instead of having to go the Teeraths like the Hindus who have 68 Important Teeraths, or Mecca for Islam and places like Lourdes for Catholics....we have GURU GRANTH JI...in Each and every Gurdawra/School/College/Home even..all around the World..easily available to every one at minimal cost and conveneince.

The concept of Teerath..to cleanse one's SINS /paaps by bathing, washing, penance etc is NOT ACCEPTABLE in Gurmatt and CONDEMNED in GURBANI.

Historical Gurdawras are a plenty...as our TEN GURU SAHIBAANS lived and travelled widely all over Indiian Sub Continent and far and wide...in FACT FOUR out of the FIVE TAKHATS are attached to GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....Takhat Patna due to Guur Ji's Birth place, Takhat Keshgarh Anandpur due to vasakhi 1699, Takhat Damdama due to Guur Granth Ji being re-written prior to being bestowed Gurgadhi as Shabad Guru, and Takhat hazoor Sahib as the Takhat where GURU GRANTH Ji was bestowed GURUSHIP and the gurgadhi of DEHDHAREE Gurus put to an end in 1708....BUT HEMKUNT doesnt fall into this category.  Since the past 50 years or so since its "discovery"..Hemkunt has received an "promotion" through YATRAS in out of proportion to its importance in Sikh history ( which it has NONE). ALL other Sikh Gurdawras had the LIVING GURU visit it at one time or other or were established by the GURUS...Nankana Sahib Birth place of Guru nanak Ji, Panja Sahib established to cvommemorate a visit by Guru nanak Ji, Harimandir Sahib Amrtisar established by Guru Arjun Ji etc etc..but Hemkunt dosnt have any of this..NO LIVING GURU ever visited it or was associated with hemkunt.

In fact, a typical "YATRA VIDEO" of Hemkunt is remarkeably similar to a Yatra video of Mata Sherran valli.... a teerath of the Hindus remarkeably SIMILAR to hemkunt in more ways than one.... a Extremely Difficult path high up in the MOUNTAINS, people struggling along in the FREEZING COLD weather...which ties in perfectly with the HINDU practise of giving SREERAK KASHAT....BODY PAIN /Physical struggle/physical bathing etc to GAIN MERIT with GOD....but this PRACTISE is severly Condemned in Gurmatt as totally unnecessary..GOD of SIKHE is NOT impressed with FASTING, climbing up difficult mountain paths, struggling in cold freezing weather, crawling up mandir steps on knees with BLEEDING KNEES. banging your head on each step as you climb higher, etc etc..and many other astetic practises of piercing the body with spears, swords, standing upon one leg for long periods, being buried in the sand etc etc.

Yatras to Histroical Gurdwaras...even Hemkunt ( when it has no such history)  just to get in touch with our History is FINE...BUT to go on one to Cleanse your sins, wash your paaps, get spiritual benefit from torturing your body etc etc is CONDEMNED very strongly in GURBANI at many places....THAT can only be done through SIMRAN-NAAM JAAPNA.......bathing just washes the outer body...and suffering climbing up difficult mountain paaths, bleeding knees etc serve to increase the haumaii only ( THAT look that says.... I "SUFFERED" so much to "SEE my GURU"..i refused to sit on a horse but walked barefoot..etc etc.. Gurbani says: GOD is NOT IMPRESSED !!!)

Jarnail Singh


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## International Akaali (May 1, 2005)

I beilive you have raised a lot of good points. Why is this that people still go there? Is it because the world doesnt want to read anymore. They just want to hear stories made up like this one. No one like to read and do research and that is a big reason why the panth is falling apart. I think awarness is a big issue and that is not being dealt with.

Gurfateh


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## UnstoppableSingh (May 1, 2005)

Khalsa-Raj-Karega ji........

You say no one does research or reads and that that is the reason the panth is falling to pieces..... 

Read Kalgi Dar Chamatkar(Life Story of Guru Gobind Singh Ji) by Bhai Vir Singh Ji (in my opinion greatest Sikh philospher... well after Guru Ji and both Bhai Gurdas JI and Bhai Gurdas Singhi Ji whos Vaars are untouchable)

In that he gives untold information about the events there. About what Nishani Guru Ji left there that can still be seen to this day. (Damdami Taksal send 7 Singhs each year to change the Nishan Sahibs on the places Guru Ji spoke of...... those places are even further up the mountain then Hemkunt Sahib). 

The reasoning behind why it became so important. Each area (staan) where each Guru before becoming Guru merged back into Waheguru is respected by the Panth. Pora Sahib in Kartarpur where Guru Hargobind Ji sat for 10 years before Gurgaddi is a Gurdwara. Baba Bakala Sahib where Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji sat for 26 years before Gurgaddi  is a Gurdwara and so on and so forth. Each one of those places has the utmost respect by the panth because those spots where the union from 2 identities back into one. The main reason for them is so that if one goes to see them is that in the end we have that same desire that we should start are own Bhagti and move on in this path. 

We all discuss and discuss about if this is right or if this is wrong. Main thing in life is to start doing are own Kamai so in some lifetime in the future we can leave this cycle of life and death and see the greatness of Akal Purkh as described by are great Gurus.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 2, 2005)

veer unstoppable singh jio,

Guru Hargobind Ji was 11 Years old at his fathers Martyrdom and sat on the Gurgadhi at this age.

From Age 3 he was sent to Baba budha Ji to elarn academic education as well as Martial arts...which he completed by the age of 11 when he was appointed GURU..

I am intrigued from where you got the information that GURU HARGOBIND JI sat in a Bhorra for 10 Years.....this would mean Guru Ji was put ina  Bhorra ta ge ONE and remained there until age 11 when He emerged to becoem GURU ???

Guru Ji's total age was 48 Years and He was GURU for 37 Years...you do the maths as to when he sat in a  bhorra.

Guru teg Bahadur Ji was MARRIED and had an underground bhorra for Naam simran...but i dont think it is feasible to put Guru Ji there continuously for 26 years....after all He did perform his Grishthee Jeewan duties as well...the way some people say it, they put GURU JI away for 26 years just like the sadhus and sidhs of old who left for the jungles himalayas etc and completely disregarded their wives and families...GURU JI cannot be like that.

It is a fact that GURU TEG BAHADUR ji just REMAINED ALOOF of the Gurgadhi problems doing Naam Simaran and Bhagtee UNTIL the passing away of Guru Harkrishan Ji placed the gurgadhi on their Shoulders.

NO where in GURBANI does it say that SIKHS MUST SHUT THEMSELVES AWAY for periods of time like 10 years, 26 years etc...IF the 26 YEARS of Naam Simran "prepared" GURU TEG BAHADUR JI for SACRIFICE...just HOW MANY years did GURU ARJUN JI spend preparing to give His supreme Sacrifice ?? GURU ARJUN JI didnt spend even a DAY...as a YOUNG CHILD He began ucharing gURBANI...earning the title  "guru ka dohta Bani ka BOHITHA...at the knees of Guru Amardass Ji...and then at the feet of His father Guru ramdass ji..until His Sacrifice...BY "LINKING" 26 years of BHORRA SACRIFICE..are we NOT making it sound like GURU TEG BAHADUR JI was somehow Not that "holy" etc and had to PREPARE by cutting himslef from the world ??  This is a great Fallacy..and BASED on the HINDU ideas of "sacrifice/jungle naam simrans etc etc to "prepare" etc etc...OUR GURUS were ALL ONE JYOT...all same in every aspect.  Guru harkrishan Ji also SACRIFICED HIS LIFE...putting himself in danger by going to help the sick..is similar to taking the most dangerous risk..BUT GURU HARKRISHAN JI ddint have to go to any bhorra sahib to "prepare" ??

Jarnail Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 3, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das only wants to tell something about Bhora.

It is a sort of undergroound place used by Sikhs Saints,In Islam it is something related to Chila.

Well often poeple say that it is good to rise up in the moring and go to simiran or riciting the name of God as no one is there to distub you.It is a good thing.

but often during day if we get some free time,There needs to be a place where there should not any disturbance from outside world.

As Sikhs live in world and do not run away in jungle and as per Tenth Master we have house to be like jungle or Ban Se Sadan so Bhora is nothing else but a place in home generally in basement(as in those time basment were coolers and free from insects unlike home where cattles etc could be there to distract).Where meditation can be done.

not only this but only in seclutin great Thinkers stay and with cool mind make big idealogies.

so if Gurus did sit in Bhora then it was due to practical reason.We nned to understand that what we read in Gurubani today could have been bestowed onto our Gurus in Bhoras only.

Das also request our Missioniers also to try and practise meditation also.It is time and again being told in Gurbani.

Because in a mind free from worldly worries we can make our God Akal sit more efficintly but rest is in Hand of Akal.

For a present Day Sikh Bhora could be secluded corner of Park or that part of Gurudwara where there is no disturbance or such part of house.Sitting away physically from distraction to rember the name of God is not anti Gurmat.Gurbani says that all other works are not to be of use.Meet holy Company and sing glory of God. But thing to rember is that to sing glory of God when we do not have acceess to holy compnay then also we must not leave the chance to meditate and for that it is better that we need to be away from distraction.

So while studying or doing other works in spare time Gurus could have done this.As per Medical scince also in hectic life like that of Gurus some time away from hustlbustle of life meditatiing is good.DR Khalsa Ji can confirm it.But it may not be true that Gurus living for long durations 'only' in Bhora nor it is proven by any text nor it is practical.It sounds more like an influence of Nath yoga on us as they do such things like burying themself for years.It is Anti Gurmat.But Guru JI could go to Bhora for some time atleast to meditate.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 6, 2005)

Veer Vijaydeep Singh Ji is absolutley right on the Bhora beign a Practical Place to do mediatation/Nitnem/Naam japp.  Thats all...nothing more nothing less.


Guru Teg bahadur Ji was MARRIED and had his household duties to do as well as meditate/naam japp and od his nitnem...for which He descended into the Cool Bhora daily.   It is preposterous to "read" something more into this Bhora thing..as IF GURU JI was putting his body through a penace/chilla thing to "prepare" for his sacrifice.

The second thing si that WHAT our GURU SAHIBAANS did PREVIOUS to Becoming GURU is of NO CONCERN to us.
We dont care that Bhai Lehna Ji used to go on Devi maata pilgrimages...or Bhai Amardass Ji used to go on Hindu Pilgrimages..or that Bhai Jetha Ji used to sell chholay.... WE are ONLY concerned wth their LIVES AFTER they Became GURUS and started to Write GURBANI.

Guru Gobind Singh ji's Supposed "life"   "BEFORE' he even became BORN at Patna sahib is NONE OF OUR CONCERN.  DIDNT any of the OTHER GURUS have SUCH LIFES ??  Didint GURU NANAK JI do any such tapiasaya etc ?? So why only single out Guru Gobind Singh ji. THIS SINGLING OUT is part of that deep rooted conspiracy to SEPARATE GURU GOBIND SINGH JI from GURU NANAK-GURU TEG BAHADUR JI. A lot of people today say..Look here Gyani ji, I am a SIKH of GURU NANAK to GURU TEG BAHADUR JI ONLY... I DONT BELIEVE in GURU GOBIND SINGH JI or His AMRIT/Khalsa rehit etc.  The TRUTh of the Matter is that we as SIKHS MUST beleive in the ONE-NESS of the GURU NANAK-GURU GOBIND SINGH-GURU GRANTH JI SAHIB JYOT. Any one who tries to separate them is NOT a SIKH of any GURU..becasue he breaks the fundamental rule of ONE JYOT.

So even IF Guru Ji did tapisaya at hemkunt....and IF He still is at hemkunt even NOW doing still more tapisaya....it is of NO CONCERN to me as a SINGH..I am only concerned with His Teachings up till 1708..IN this LIFE on this WORLD.

Gurbani says'Bhullan ander sabh ko ABHULL GURU KARTAAR.... so even great men like  Bahi Vir Singh can be wrong...they are NOT Kartar-Guru....IF bhai Vir Singh Ji can be WRONG on RAAGMALA why cant he be wrong on hemkunt as well ?  ONLY GURBANI is NEVER WRONG...and GURBANI SAYS clearly and unequivically.. ONLY NAAM can SAVE US...ONLY NAAM is AMRIT..going to pilgrimages is a sheer waste of time and money.  Go for HISTORICAL VISITS to GENUINE HISTORICAL GURDWARAS...not mythilogical ones...but if you still love trudging up steep cold mountains...Be my guest.

Jarnail Singh


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## International Akaali (May 6, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

To my knowledge Guru gobind singh ji in his previouis life did some thing to help the devi. And the devi rewarded him by saying In his next life, he will start his own religion. This is a reward from the devi. I believe this is all lies. First of all I would like to clairfy i doon't believe in any such devi what so ever. Then how could a devi tell Guru gobind singh ji that he's going to start his own religion in the next life. When guru sahib from 1st to 10th all repeated themseleves to beileve in Akal Purkh, Waheguru. Then why is this devi stuff comming into are relgigion in people are atill saying GUru gobing singh ji did this and he did that etc. This is all Bhaakand. I trhink it is a way to dismantle are religion. As you may know the RSS and all these other groups. I think there are big factor in this.

tan tan guru granth sahib ji


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 6, 2005)

Gurfateh

Well at those times there were fathers of present day RSS.But Devi thing is there and That has totaly opposite meaning to what RSS type are trying to prove today.

Well Devi as per story of DushtDaman was weak and was helped by a hunble worshper of Akal when she was attacked by demons.

That Devi promised to serve Sikhs.And That devi at present tied to the Ghatara of Das as a Kirpan.It was mere Propoganda of Sikhs at that time to show ourself above the Brahmanical people which thses guys want to use on us.

Well Hemkunt episode tells Das a lesson.Khalsa life which he got could be due to very hard yogic life in past even if Braham Gyan is obtained in that life.

To all Khalsas Guru told that it is reward by Akal from previous birth that we are Khalsa.

We are consuming the fruits of inferior life in past.Yogis long for Salvation but at the most they may get rebirth.Only after becoimg Khalsa doe they get salvaged while alive.

Like wise Tapsaya at Hemkunt side is still done by Army People or ITBP personals.It is possilbe that Dushtdaman did made Hemkunt his base during his war with demons,to protct Devi.

Same thing later Singh did by taking refuge in himalayas and raiding on turks to free enslvaed Devis of India be it Hindu or Be it Muslims.

So it is and was a mere propoganda for high spirit of Panth but RSS may not succed to let it back fire on us.Rather 'RSS' may loose its own power and person who plays with fire burns himself.

They may loose thier own people to Panth and we get strong.


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## FireStorm (May 6, 2005)

yaaay peep I am back. 

Gurfateh everyone .. 

Well actually personally I think the whole story about the Hemkunt aspect is a myth. I am not able to understand a few things: 

1. Why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji write about his previous life - if there was one?

2. In the story of Dusht Daman - perhaps someone can throw some light on how Dusht Daman actually came into being, (from the skin that a rishi used to sit upon) 

There are many fallacies in the story and these can be discussed at length. 

3. If for a moment I belive that Guru Ji indeed had a previous life as some believe, it is confusing that in his present life, he condemns the very practices of Tap and going to Himalayas to do penance etc. 

However I must commend Vijaydeep for his ever present enthusiasm. He has given a beautiful similie to the episode. I know his intention is always good and positive for sikhism, but still I do not agree with him, on this count. 

Akal Sahai 
Firestorm


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## Amerikaur (May 8, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see Hemkunt Sahib.

I can travel up to the white mountains in New Hampshire, and ascend the peak that has the highest meteorologically logged wind speed in the world. I can drive up near the top, check out the view, buy a Coke from the vending machine and a bumper sticker for my car that says "This car climbed Mount Washington" and go back down.

I can head up in the Canadian rockies to a high peak, and drop a bundle of cash in a beautiful (but slightly overpriced) Japanese Tea House and then go back down. 

I can buy some mountain climbing equipment and climb a mountain, reach the top, and hoot and holler and yell...and climb back down.

But where else can I climb up a mountain, enjoy some breathtakingly unique natural wonders...and then find a gurdwara waiting for me at the top?

I don't know when I'll go...but I can't wait...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 8, 2005)

Bhen Ji Ameri kaur Ji,

You have given all the Right reasons to go visit Hemkunt...but sadly you are in the miniscule minority....99.9% of the "shabad singing yatrees" are going there to wash their paaps/get some imaginary "kamaii" from punishing their bodies..etc etc..which is a total fallacy as no such kamaii exists...only kamaii comes from namm japping..not giving kasht to your body.

I heard the mountain views are fantastic...and the valley of flowers is absolutley unimaginably beautiful....one day i too will visit the place as a tourist ( not pilgrim) maybe i will meet you there !!!

Although if we really come down to brass tacks..absolute reality..OUR GURU is SHABAD GURU....which has no body, no jaat paat, no caste, no race, no regional base, no special language restrictions, etc etc and is truly UNIVERSAL and available every where..IF one approaches this Shabad Guru with the proper humility and pyaar..right at home in your local gurdawra you will get all you want...no need to go suffer trudging up to hemkunt for this.. Most of the Hype about Hemkunt is a advertisement by the vested interests of Yatra Organsiasers who make money from the yatrees

Jarnail singh


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## Archived_member2 (May 9, 2005)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji wrote "You have given all the Right reasons to go visit Hemkunt...but sadly you are in the miniscule minority....99.9% of the "shabad singing yatrees" are going there to wash their paaps/get some imaginary "kamaii" from punishing their bodies..etc etc..which is a total fallacy as no such kamaii exists...only kamaii comes from namm japping..not giving kasht to your body."

These are wonderful words from Gyani Ji.

God resides in every body.

People try to punish God dwelling in theirs or others body and expect heaven in revenge.


Balbir Singh


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## UnstoppableSingh (May 9, 2005)

First off let me say..... Gyani Ji my fact on the number of years could be wrong (Regard Guru Hargobind Ji)and for that i ask for forgiveness but there is his Phora Sahib in Kartarpur because i went and visited it myself. 

AS for Bhai Vir Singh Ji being wrong on Raagmaala i have no idea what your talking about.


As for Hemkunt....... Amerikaur did say the actually truth. The reason i started speaking in this forum was because most people only think of it as a Yatra place. I've been to Hemkunt and i asked people while on my walk up and down what was the reason for there coming here. Some have made a game out of it. 2 Punjab Police men ran up and down Hemkunt in 1 day and said next year they'll try to beat that time. Another Baba said he has been going for 17 years straight so he figured it helped him live longer. The only reason to go to any Gurdwara is so while being in the presences of something great we get the internal desire to start our own Bhagti. Teerath Yatra has no value for a Sikh. But i also want to say having no respect for Hemkunt or other areas of historical value for Sikhs is wrong as well.


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## International Akaali (May 9, 2005)

Dear unstoppable singh,

YOu had said "But i also want to say having no respect for Hemkunt or other areas of historical value for Sikhs is wrong as well."

The thing you said about hemkunt I agree with you but not the way you say it. You should have respect for any gurdwara whether it be underground, on the surface of the earth or in the mountains because guru granth sahib ji is there. If you go to hemkunt it is the same thing as if you go to the gurdwara that is in the city or in your pind. Ever gurdwara is the same its just that pirchar is not going on. The last time i went to punjab was 2 years ago. I remember going to the gurswara in the pind's gurdwara and nothing would be there and no one accept for the granthi singh and guru maharaj di veer. No one reads it or pircharrs it. This is a lack of focus on the part of the sgpc as they need to put more pircharikks in gurdwara. Now a days you see only babai doing kirtan that is anti-gurmat in other words Kachi bani. People like to listen to kachie bani but know one wants to read and *UNDERSTAND* Shabad bani. 

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 9, 2005)

khalsa-raj-karega said:
			
		

> Dear unstoppable singh,
> 
> YOu had said "But i also want to say having no respect for Hemkunt or other areas of historical value for Sikhs is wrong as well."
> 
> The thing you said about hemkunt I agree with you but not the way you say it. You should have respect for any gurdwara whether it be underground, on the surface of the earth or in the mountains because guru granth sahib ji is there. If you go to hemkunt it is the same thing as if you go to the gurdwara that is in the city or in your pind. Ever gurdwara is the same its just that pirchar is not going on. The last time i went to punjab was 2 years ago. I remember going to the gurswara in the pind's gurdwara and nothing would be there and no one accept for the granthi singh and guru maharaj di veer. No one reads it or pircharrs it. This is a lack of focus on the part of the sgpc as they need to put more pircharikks in gurdwara. Now a days you see only babai doing kirtan that is anti-gurmat in other words Kachi bani. People like to listen to kachie bani but know one wants to read and *UNDERSTAND* Shabad bani.


 
Yes veer Ji, that is the whole point. Guru Ji has given us this most wonderful GIFT of having Darshan Of our GURU in so many places...the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI Bir that we have Paraksh in our own humble home is just as HOLY as that parkash in say..Hemkunt. ITS the SAME GURU JYOT.

People have fallen into the pit of Bharam...wehn they are led to believe that an "akhand paath" say at Hemkunt/Amrtisar...etc brings MORE VALUE ?? than the SAME BANI read in ones own home. This FALLACIOUS BELIEF leads many to "book" paaths at Amrtisar/delhi/patna sahib etc etc ec...and we have Long lines of people waiting for their turn at Akahnd Paath/sehaj paath so much so that READY MADE Paaths are now on SALE from these places..which goes AGAINST everything that GURBANI says.

IN MALAYSIA we have certain "holy" Gurdwaras_ MANTIN/PUSING/KAMUNTING... where people RUSH to book paaths....the " money spinners" have spread false beleifs that paaths/jordmelas/samagams done at these Gurdwaras Have EXTRA SPECIAL BENEFITS...there are even false beleifs spread about cetain miraculous powers attributed to well water at these gurdwaras...amrit etc. This is all WRONG/BHARAM/BIPPAR Propoganda and ANTI-GURMAT. IF we really take the time to READ and UNDERSTAND GURBANI we will realise our folly...BUT the YATRA LOBBY Media machine is so well oiled that its relentless propoganda keeps churning out miracles and sakhis..and what not to convicne the innocent that this "gurdwara" is "more holy" than the rest.... sad

AKAAL PURAKH is NOT CONFINED to Brick buildings....IF GURU NANAK JI took all that trouble to travel to Mecca to impart this "lesson" to Muslims..then how can we now turn around and say WAHEGURU/SACHKHAND/AKAAL PURAKH is in Amritsar..ONLY ??

Jarnail Singh


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## UnstoppableSingh (May 9, 2005)

I never said that Hemkunt was a more "holy" place or a place with untold holiness..... my point is most people look at it with a bad eye or wrong thought..... People tend to disregard the place as nothing but Hindu propoganda..... i'm saying its not propoganda and its a beautiful place and something people should see in there life.

In my life i've tried to go to places were each religion says this is a "holy" place. I go to see what reaction occurs on my Surat and see what changes go on my vichars. I've been to Mandhirs, Mosques, Churchs and so on. I even wanted to go see Mecca but found out i'm not even allowed 10 kms close to is (part of some Sharia Law). 

I also know that all this Teerath Yatra isn't the truth but sometimes a flame rises within when seeing a place of great spiritual importance. My most eventful journey was when i saw Harmandir Sahib for the first time (in 2002 first time in India) literally my mind went still. From joy i went to tears.... then to tears of anger and grief as i thought about the attacks of 84 and of the 3-4 times before that Harmandhir Sahib was disgraced upon. These are the type of things I go to Gurdwaras to remember.

I'm a man of History..... i totally love History for me to see old Forts, Castles, Chruchs, Gurdwaras is something of great Joy to me. 

My only problem was in the starting of the Forum people totally disassociated Hemkunt with Sikhism and considered it something of no relevance or value. So i started speaking my 2 cents.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 10, 2005)

Dear Unstoppable Singh Ji,

OF course there is a FLAME deep within ones heart when we reach the places that our Guru sahibaans, martyrs...etc stepped foot on....Heck a "flame" also arises  when we hear or read their fantastic history/Dhaadhi varaan/dharmik geets...an unstoppable lump will arise in my throat when i hear or read dhadhi varaan about ..say Guru Arjun Sahib jees Shahidi on the tatti tavee, or Bhai mani Singh ji being cut from limb to limb..or Bhai Mati dass being sawed alive..what more when I will have Guru Ji's Kirpa on me to actually VISIT those very places where these took place...How not to be emotionally attached to these places ?? impossible for a Gursikh...On this score I am in 110% agreement with YOU.  Every single person I have met who has visited Sri darbar sahib Amrtisar/Takhat patna sahib/Takhat hazoor sahib/ Gurdwara nanakana sahib....has a very emotional tale of a solid personal experience to tell me...and that is TRUTH. These historical places of our Gurus are the "transformer Houses" we gursikhs go to Recharge our emotional batteries...

The Only disagreement i have with is calling these 'visits" pilgrimages...ostensibly to cleanse ones paaps/sins/get punn etc. THAT NOTION is 100% WRONG and not as per Gurmatt/Gurbani. Not a single line of Gurbani supports this view. Sadly MOST of the yatrees go on these yatras/pilgrimages solely to clean their paaps and collect punn.  They come back with absolutley no knowldege of any historical things....

I hope we agree on these points.

Jarnail Singh


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## saintnsipahi (Jul 9, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh,  All the gyanis are here to discuss about Hemkunt Saheb. But least I'm not a giani. I just know the fact that Mere Kalgianwale whatever he written in his "DASAMGRANTH" Is true and unquestionable like for everyone of us that we are living in this age and discussing this topic. Whenever we raise a point towards the Hemkunt Sahib, we are also argueing about our loyalty towards "GURU GOBIND SINGH SAHEB". There is no question of whether He was our Guru at that time or not, The question is that HE is Our Maalik For this life and forever. I myself believe that Living without SIKHI Is a sure Death for our soul. Guru is Guru of all times, He never be get away from his sikhs. What other things that our GURU GOBIND SINGH SAHEB JI has given us to obey , are we obeying? No surely not. We all are not capable to be in this debate. Thanks you all to listning me. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.


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## Harkishansingh (Jan 6, 2009)

International Akaali said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> I have read a lot lierature on how hemkunt sdhould not be hisotrical gurdwara for sikhism. It has things like Guru Gobind singh did bhagti with devi/devtai in previous lifes. I have a comment to make also/ at that previous time if he even had done bagati he was not even our guru at that time also. note: i am not saying he ever did. It has been said that this story has been made by hindu's etc. Also Hemkunt was only found about 50 years ago, if it was so historical was wasn't it found before.
> 
> please give yout opinion


 
 In Bachitar Natak guru ji himself write it "
" Ab Mai Apni kayha Bakhno 
  Tap Sadhat Jhai bidh ano 
  Hemkunt Parbat Hai Jahan 
  sapat sring sobhit Hai Tahan 

As u say that it was found about Fifty Years ago Than some places like TILGANJI SAHIB JI was not yet .


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## Archived_member7 (Jan 7, 2009)

Saadh Sangatji
I really fail to understand ..one claims we shouldnt consider Hemkunt Sahib because The Great Baajhaware Sarkar worshipped Devi Devte...i really fail to understand why is there so much of chaos over such things ..

We are not understanding that the Gurus dont consider it a taboo..We just worship the Akaal Purakh..The Devi Devtas are like Shakti of the Akaal Purakh...We time and again fail to realize that we are not muslims but we r sikhs ..we are getting bigoted day by day..

If we do not object 'Awal Allah Noor Upaaya' of Guru Aarjandev ji Maharaj who are we to object to Dasmesh Pita's Saadhana..

I consider it blasphemy to question Hemkunt Sahib


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 7, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> Saadh Sangatji
> I really fail to understand ..one claims we shouldnt consider Hemkunt Sahib because The Great Baajhaware Sarkar worshipped Devi Devte...i really fail to understand why is there so much of chaos over such things ..


Well, for one its made up. Why? No one realizes that its biologically impossible to know something about yourself before you were born. 
Two, SGGS says we incarnate into rocks and mountains. That says taht reincarnation is not the reincarnation we think it is. Its merely a recycling process! So no, your not going to remember what happened before and after you were born! Why is that concept so hard to grasp? 
Reincarnation is to God as REcycling is to humans.
God says reduse, reuse, reincarnate.
We say reduce, reuse, recycle.



> We are not understanding that the Gurus dont consider it a taboo..We just worship the Akaal Purakh..The Devi Devtas are like Shakti of the Akaal Purakh...


What? Dvi Devta are different personalities of Akal, they have broken up the qualities of God. The problem with having so many Gods is taht they create divisions amogst people. they are like different countries...



> We time and again fail to realize that we are not muslims but we r sikhs ..we are getting bigoted day by day..


ya... and we are not hindu either...




> If we do not object 'Awal Allah Noor Upaaya' of Guru Aarjandev ji Maharaj who are we to object to Dasmesh Pita's Saadhana..


Dasmesh pita considered SGGS above all. SGGS does not include his own writings but 'Awal Allah Noor Upaaya' is included.



> I consider it blasphemy to question Hemkunt Sahib


Well, go ahead. but we really should be questioning everything from A to Z. Great philosophers do it, Guru nanak to all the Gurus and other Sants and Bhagats in SGGS did it. many other philosophers do it.  
The reason why we have SGGS today is because there were questions. As soon as the questioning process stops, human development stops. Science works by hypothesis which is an educated guess on a question about some phenomenon. 
So QUESTION QUESTION QUESTION!!! ALWAYS!


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## JJKN (Oct 15, 2010)

*Hemkunt Sahib*

Hi, 
I recently visited Hemkunt Sahib, and they were giving out one rupee to each member of the sangat. Is there any special reason for them doing this or is it just a sort of souvenir. Im just curious because ive never seen this happen at a gurdwara before.
Thanks
JJKN


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## dalbirk (Oct 18, 2010)

*re: Hemkunt Sahib*

Hemkunt Sahib is a Gurudwara IMHO for all wrong reasons . According to Bachittar Natak Granth (DG) Guru Gobind Singh ji meditated on the hills for countless years in previous birth . As per Sikh history & philosophy whatever a Guru has done before getting GURTAGAADI is of no consequence to the Sikhs . If it was not so then , Sikhs should also go to Vaishno Devi shrine every year for Mata Darshan since Guru Angad Dev Ji used to go every year carrying along a jatha of Devotees before he came to Guru Nanak's shelter . Sikhs should also go to Haridwar bathing since Guru Amardass Ji used to carry Jathas to Haridwar for Ganga Ishnaan twice a year before he became Guru .


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## spnadmin (Oct 18, 2010)

*re: Hemkunt Sahib*

Good point dalbirkj i and it is one that needs to be added to a long list of improbable occurrences.


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## dalbirk (Oct 18, 2010)

*Re: Hemkunt Sahib*

This story is unfortunately part of that DG which is 60% full of erotic tales degrading women in particular . Nothing spiritual about that 60% of Bachittar Natak Granth at least .


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 18, 2010)

*Re: Hemkunt Sahib*

Hemkunt is nothing but something concocted out of myths and fairy tales which are against the Sikhi thought process. Unfortunately, the place was " discovered" by some prominent Sikh scholars of the time; however, it is a shame to notice that  they for got the basic Sikhi tenets while desperately searching for "Mr. Right", in this case a place which is meaningless in the Sikhi way of life. But unfortunately, it has become a big place for us to idol worship, one more anti Sikhi tenet.

It is OK to visit historical Gurdwaras to learn about Sikh history but it is not OK to arrange tours during the summer when thousands of people visit this place and leave their garbage on the trail while singing the Salok- Pavan Guru, Pani Pita, Mata dharat mahat.........

The sad part is that no one can ban this rat race, the ritualistic yearly pilgrimage. Only those who study Gurbani and practice it can ban themselves. And from the throngs that visit, one can gather that is not the case. I have never been there and have no intentions of doing it either.

There are some threads about Hemkunt in the forum. I urge people to read  them.One more thread worth reading about it is:Environmental Disaster created by Sikh Pilgrims to Hemkunt Sahib

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 26, 2011)

*Re: Hemkunt Sahib*

Naavann challeh teeratheen..See what GURBANI says about bathing at physicla teeraths like Hemkunt etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LlP_tT9NtY&feature=player_embedded#at=208


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 26, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LlP_tT9NtY&feature=player_embedded#at=208


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## Ravi79 (Apr 15, 2011)

Nir Bhau, Nir Vair, Akaal Morat, Ajuni Sebhang, JAP.

God bless all.

There is no proof of GGSJi ever being there, it is of historical importance to Hindus and Bhuddists but not Sikhs as without evidence and direct reference, we are the blind following the blind. There is no concept of pilgrimage in Sikhi, like there is in Islam, so let us not get into travel to find God when ALL gurus' said find God within you. "Guru Guru Gurbani He", as Christians say "Word is God", our Gurbani is God. Go travelling for a holiday, but not to find God, whom is within you and within all. 

Respect Hemkunt as a Gurudwara, bcause lets face it, its there now, but lets leave it at that. :happysingh:

WJKK, WJKF.


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## davinderdhanjal (Apr 16, 2011)

Ravi79 Ji, 
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0cm;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->  It is still not clear to Sikhs that like so many other diversions this is one more by anti-Sikh elements to confuse us so that we do not address the issues for Sikhi (that prevail). How come we do not know much about what happened 26 years ago but know so much about tens of centuries ago?

As a challenge to those who have more money than sense – what would you do follow detractors like who believe in Hemkunt, having deevas and other idols in Sikh gatherings places or be SIKHS? Being Sikhs is to stand by TRUTH- means exposing truth about our ‘leaderships’, Akal Takhat, SGPC and DGSPC or their management etc. and criminal behaviour of police against Sikhs – the latter has some hard work to do, the former is what the Hindus did when they let Moslems loot and establish themselves (910AD) in India and then the British. 

It is difficult to be true to yourself and the Lord so we look for shortcuts to fool ourselves and satisfy those who are trying to wipe us off the face of the earth. 

You are not ‘savalakh’ by following blind – only by being TRUE can you lead and open the eyes of the blind. Banda Bhadur, Deep Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa did not run to ‘Hemkunts’ to be Sikhs or save Sikhi!


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 16, 2011)

Human nature is such. Greater the myth we create about our great Gurus, the more will be

 the tendency among the majority of the people to believe it to be the cardinal truth.


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## Ravi79 (Apr 16, 2011)

Davinder you are right, that 'iron in the soul' is lost, that loha of the God's Word should be what the sould is made of, people dont see The Lord Waheguru is IN US!!!!! We really have to discipline ourselves to reach that clarity, but in the age of consumerism, sex and decadence, in other words the Kalyug, who has time to save their soul? I confess to knowing nothing but am trying to follow the Gur's Word: it is slow and labourious, but we must try to be true to our Guru. 

"Meh Andulaeh Ki Paej, Tera Naam Kunj A kara, Meh Gareeb Meh Muskeen, Tera Naam He Adhaara"

God Bless Us All:swordfight-kudiyan:


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Human nature is such. Greater the myth we create about our great Gurus, the more will be
> 
> the tendency among the majority of the people to believe it to be the cardinal truth.



Please let me add my part to your words, before asking you if you would every now and then start a thread for us about these devious "myths."

"Greater the myth we create about our great Gurus, the more will be the tendency among the majority of the people (jasbirkaleka ji)" to forget what made them truly brilliant, and to forget the profound hardship and sacrifice they paid for that brilliant light, so that we could flourish.


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 16, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Please let me add my part to your words, before asking you if you would every now and then start a thread for us about these devious "myths."
> 
> "Greater the myth we create about our great Gurus, the more will be the tendency among the majority of the people (jasbirkaleka ji)" to forget what made them truly brilliant, and to forget the profound hardship and sacrifice they paid for that brilliant light, so that we could flourish.



:redturban: I am extremely sorry if I made myself misunderstood.I would be the last person to ever doubt the greatness and brilliance of our Gurus. 
The way they fought and rebelled against all odds, for a better future for all mankind, no example can be found in any other part of the world.
I was alluding to Janam Sakhies etc.  where we are told of the "chamatkars" and all other such stuff performed by our great Gurus.
I am sure none of our Gurus would have approved of such stories about them.
I would soon try to start a new thread about these "myths".


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2011)

jasbirkaleka ji

 I am sorry if I was not clear. 





> where we are told of the "chamatkars" and all other such stuff performed by our great Gurus.


 These are the tales that demean our Gurus and Sikhs and please do continue with your thread. I was AGREEING with you.


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## davinderdhanjal (Apr 16, 2011)

Dear Jasbirkaleka Ji,
                           Unfortunately I agree with you although as Gursikhs we should not. I have to admit that if I had not read Kala Afgana's analysis of 'Gurbilas 6th patshahi'<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> then what ever was written by Joginder Singh Vedanti in the above book I would have believed. That book along with a smaller version was published and distributed by 'sikh infedels' in SGPC - I cant think of better prize for them than burning tyres around their necks. Luckily, and thanks to Kala Afgana, for Vedanti the main book was withdrawn but I believe the smaller one is still around. Check out on Kala Afgana site.
I have mentioned elsewhere that these people lavish titles on Gurus, Babas and Bhagats that would have us believe they are or were living gods on earth when they want to abuse them and then knife them in the second sentence by misconstruing hindu gods to be teachers of Sikh Gurus  using equally flowery language that will make you believe our Gurus said that! 
I do not have intimate ties with Punjab and India (I was born and bred in Nairobi Kenya) and I used to think Sikhs were Khalsas as one would idealise. In the last year or so I have spent time to research what has gone wrong - say since 1984?
Firstly the net is full of 'sikh sites' 90+% are anti-Sikh and correct information gathering is slow and laborious work. Definitely not for 'fair day' Sikhs.
Secondly - we do not need enemies when the 'Sikhi leadersip' is alive and kicking in the present form (it has possibly been like this for a long time?).
Thirdly - our leadership will trade Sikhi for political power at a drop of a hat?
Fourthly - general standard of education (Gurmat especially) is well below standard, I include myself in that too.
Fifth - the educated people are not recognised and encouraged - I may be treading on peoples' toes but Kala Afgana, Dr. Sukhpreet Singh Udhoke and Phoolka (may be many more but I do not know them) - have talent but - I may be wrong - are not front runners for Sikhi?
Sixth - ones who do work are very quiet - (true Sikhs) - but sikh leaders/politicians like Sarna weild so much power that they can throttle truth to change direction of Sikhi to suit in this case Congress who made over 3000 Sikh Marytrs in 1984 and since.
Seventh - our young blood may be too eager to protect us, which I thank them, but it has to be done by Sikhi - i.e. we have to be right so that when we hit out it is deserved by the receiver - not end up getting a bloody nose ourselves.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2011)

Whcih is worse..Killing Sikhs or killing SIKHI ?
Congress killed SIKHS...the badal/sgpc/Rss/Bjp Combine ruling Punjab KILLS and continues KILLING SIKHI. The Mughals...the British...also KILLED SIKHS....but we survived...BUT NOW its SIKHI that is facing the Firing Squad !! TERMITE RIDDEN khokhaleh Sikhs full of Brahminism/Bippar rituals and beleifs BUT wearing full Banna/Amrtidharee on the outside, loudest in shouting Waheguru waheguru, carrying long kirpans and huge karras, cholas and round turbans are the REAL DANGER. Such fake Sikhs and Fake Gurus are the ones driving the DERAWAAD and drugs etc.swordfight


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