# A Little EGO May Be A Good Thing By IJ Singh



## IJSingh (May 6, 2015)

Sikhi dwells heavily on the five fundamental evils that haunt and command us.  They define our life; its purpose and demeanor – the kind of person we become.  And further we learn that haumae, translated loosely but universally as ego in Sikh parlance, is the supreme evil that drives and empowers the other four –lust, envy, greed and anger.




 

Ego then is the root of all evil.  Deal effectively with ego, extirpate it from life, and all will become copacetic.  That’s the way Sikhi often seems to present this matter.  Today let’s p{censored} the idea of haumae or ego, as we see it.  Let’s dub the exercise meditations or reflections on ego.  In musical terms, it’s like a riff or an ostinato; both are thematic and serve by changing chords or harmonies in short and repeating spells of background music to solo improvisation.

This remakes ego almost into a magical spell.  It is that but what exactly do we mean by the term “ego.” I am not a behavioral scientist, but today I am going to step into this minefield.

*Id, Ego & Super Ego  *

Richard Dawkins, in a book aptly titled The Selfish Gene posits a gene that is largely, if not only, concerned with its own replication and survival and defines much of behavioral strategies that have emerged, and continue to arise, from the “disorderly experience of life and the mix of ever-renewing chromosomes” (from Tim Radford’s review of The Selfish Gene).

Behavioral experts view personality as a mix of three distinct but intermeshed parts: Id, Ego and the Superego.  These three, according to Freudian theory, in complex interaction, form and regulate the complexity of human behavior.  A Canadian academic psychologist, Dr. Surinder Singh Sodhi, tells me that this Freudian construction has been superseded by some very elaborate neuronal models that are the underpinnings of our sense of self, but that level of molecular-cellular biology is not the primary goal here today.

Id is the basic personality that seeks instant gratification for one’s needs and wants.  If they are not quickly met, I suppose, a behavioral episode ensues. It is like a hungry baby that howls incessantly until fed.  Think of the many friends and foes who operate at this level, having never learned to separate their wants from their needs, or that some gratification becomes sweeter with the waiting.

Ego is the next level that regulates our social behavior.  One learns to tame the pangs of instant gratification. Ego deals with reality in the pursuit of our wants. Finally there is the Super Ego that adds the role of judgment and social morality – the parsing of right from wrong, even when the law turns a blind eye to the action.

It seems that these three parts of the self, particularly the ego and the superego are the most, intimately and inseparably, intertwined. Scholars of psychology may cavil on the finer points of what is a sense of self, but I offer you here fair working definitions of Id, Ego and Super Ego that give our lives a structural framework. 

*Ego in Guru Granth Sahib  *

The Guru Granth offers us extensive exploration of the concept of Haumae and  how it plays in human life. The longest and defining composition (p.466) is an integral part of Aasa-ki-Vaar (p. 462-475).  The part on haumae is largely the composition of Guru Nanak, a smaller part comes from Guru Angad.  A core belief in Sikhi is the idea of a sense of self, so haumae claims attention a myriad time. 

When translating Gurbani, with nary an exception, Haumae is translated as Ego.  A life fed and defined by haumae is transcribed in English as an ego-driven existence, and roundly condemned.

True that Haumae empowers the other four cardinal sins – avarice, greed, lust and anger.  And then our emphasis immediately shifts to the many lines in Gurbani that exhort us to extirpate root and branch all signs of ego in our lives  -- only then would we be able to realize the Creator within us all.

But perhaps a more nuanced interpretation is more appropriate here. Let me offer first the defining hymn from the Guru Granth (p. 466); text and translation are reproduced from Wikipedia:

Ha-o vich aa-i-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they come, and in ego they go.)
Ha-o vich jammi-aa ha-o vich mu-aa (In ego they are born, and in ego they die.)
Ha-o vich ditaa ha-o vich la-i-aa (In ego they give, and in ego they take.)
Ha-o vich khati-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they earn, and in ego they lose.)
Ha-o vich sachiaar koorhi-aar (In ego they become truthful or false.)
Ha-o vich paap punn veechaar (In ego they reflect on virtue and sin.)
Ha-o vich narak surag avatar (In ego they go to heaven or hell.)
Ha-o vich hasai ha-o vich rovai (In ego they laugh, and in ego they weep.)
Ha-o vich bharee-ai ha-o vich Dhovai (In ego they become dirty, and in ego they are washed clean.)
Ha-o vich jaatee jinsee khovai (In ego they lose social status and class.)
Ha-o vich moorakh ha-o vich si-aanaa In ego they are ignorant, and in ego they are wise.)
Mokh mukat kee saar na jaanaa (They do not know the value of salvation and liberation.)
Ha-o vich maa-i-aa ha-o vich chhaa-i-aa (In ego they love Maya, and in ego they are kept in darkness.)
ha-umai kar kar jant upaa-i-aa (Living in ego, mortal beings are created.)
ha-umai boojhai taa dar soojhai (When one understands ego, then the Lord’s gate is known).

Without spiritual wisdom, they babble and argue (Naanak hukmee likee-ai laykh).

O Nanak, by the Lord’s Command, destiny is recorded (jayhaa vaykheh tayhaa vaykh). ||1||

Given such an all-pervasive presence in a Sikh life, I wondered why and how could  “ego” be the pure evil that needs to be uprooted absolutely – exhortations that we hear every day in gurduaras. 

I suggest that our confusion is shortsighted.  We overlook that these lines of Guru Nanak are immediately followed by a brief hymn by Guru Angad on the same page (p.466).  I offer a few lines:

Ha-umai kithhu oopjai kit sanjam ih jaa-ay (Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?)
Ha-umai ayho hukam hai pa-i-ai kirat firaahi (This ego exists by the Lord’s Order….)
Ha-umai deeragh rog hai daaroo bhee is maahi (Ego is a chronic malady, but its panacea lies within the disease.)

*Some Ideas about Ego*

Now when I juxtapose the clarity and definitional constraints on Id, Ego and Super Ego with the defining usage of the word Haumae for the variety of applications in the hymns cited above I have to wonder about the appropriateness of the word Ego as translation of Haumae. 

Ego, as psychoanalysts tell us, deals with reality in life and its goals.  Clearly then Haumae is distorted reality.  It seems then inappropriate to use the two as synonyms of each other.  Forget not that ego, in psychoanalytic terms, is the core of our sense of self.

Keep in mind that our focus is on a sense of self.  In our opening definitions we noted that Id speaks of our needs and wants; ego regulates and tames our social behavior, while super ago adds the dimension of legality and morality to the mix. 

A reader (Ali Zain) cut to the chase by a snappy summary; Id is pleasure, he said, while ego is reality and superego is morality. And, as noted earlier in this essay, remember that the panacea for ego lies in the disease (Guru Granth p 466). 

No question that ego needs to be tamed but, clearly, our sense of self emerges from  it.  Given its pervasive presence within our life, this God-given trait can’t then be pure unbridled evil, except when ego itself becomes purely unbridled.  We know that in life a self-assertive stance is desirable but an aggressive attitude is not.

It is also true that ego lies at the root of the four additional major distractions to a good life – lust, greed, avarice and anger.  Without the ego, they likely would not exist.  These five can morph into the devil’s work but harnessed to greater goals they make life possible, giving it meaning and purpose.  What we need then is an ego harnessed and disciplined to the greater sense of self.  Since ego begets lust, greed, avarice and anger, the same conclusion applies to them. 

What we really colloquially mean by ego then is an uncontrollable and exaggerated love for the self and a misplaced judgment of our puny place in the universe. Such a searingly negative change in the sense of self is perhaps better labeled

Narcissism that behavioral scientists define as “extreme selfishness.  It comes with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as defining a personality type.” 

Greek mythology speaks of Narcissus, a hunter known for his beauty. In his pride he disdained all that were around him.   The Gods noted his behavioral aberration and lured him to a pool, where he fell in love with his own reflection in the water.

Unable to leave the beauty of his image, Narcissus drowned and gave us the term narcissism for the image that we portray to others around us.

I look similarly at haumae (pride, hubris or narcissism) and the four additional monsters it spawns of lust, anger, greed and avarice.  All five, disciplined in service, are essential to making a life.  Each demands uprooting when it runs amok.

It is really this degree of self-centeredness or pride that Gurbani is talking about that we term ego. Perhaps we have mishandled the literal translation of haumae as ego.

A sense of self is essential to life.  In all dialogue there is “You and I” even in a conversation with the Creator.  In a merger termed “us” there is you and I. In short, the word haumae has two powerful ideas inherent in it.  One is the ego that gives us a sense of self; it needs to be nurtured and disciplined.  The other is the ego run amok as in narcissism and this deserves to be expelled lest it destroy us. The distinction between the two is critical. (I owe some of the insight on narcissism to conversations with Dr. Harbans Lal from Texas.)

Has mine today become a paean to ego?   What gave life to this essay today?  Well! I have a birthday looming and my thoughts naturally veered towards haumae. 

Just remember that too much of a good thing doesn’t make it better; it may become worse.  And that’s the way with ego and its cohorts.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 6, 2015)

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

Very well said, as usual. In other words this necessary evil called Haumei- mistranslated as Ego in the English translation  is also the part and parcel of our DNA. We should cultivate the trait of Gurmat Fulcrum within in  order to lasso it to our advantage.One may also call Haumei as *Me-ism.*

Thanks for forcing us to think in the Gurmat fashion so we are able to steer our boats towards the Gumat lane. A manmukh can never be a good tillerman.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Original (May 7, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Inder ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Gentlemen 

Taken together, that is, Haumae and me-ism gives us the *aliveness* of a human character, which is, as Tejwant correctly observes, a genetic component more commonly referred to as a "selfish" gene [darwinian evolution]. However, following his mystical experience at Sultanpur Lodhi, Nanak too has become "romantic" [in love with the Almighty] and how he expresses it poetically is pretty much, egoistical - me ism sense.

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ਭੂਤਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਤਾਲਾ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ਆਦਮੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਭਇਆ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ਸਾਹ ਕਾ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬਉਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਭੈ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਏਕੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥ ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਏਕਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਦੂਜੀ ਅਵਰ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਕਾਇ ॥੩॥ ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਮੰਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਅਵਰੁ ਭਲਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੭॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 991}

Nanak's emphasis in the above shabd is on the "me" and the "you" [world] factors to illustrate his own position. And, I think one will be perfectly justified in allowing Nanak to be human albeit occasionally. Moreover, one could also infer from his pull towards Sufism in relation to "romanticism" [God and him]. That is to say, how his writings reflect the use of character [dewaana], places, themes and incidents as images, metaphors and allegories, coupled with the fact that he used an Art form [singing, ragas] as opposed to philosophical expression because of the "I" [feeling] rather than the knowing factor.

So yes, in summary, bit of everything makes Jack wise n beautiful.

Thank you and good day !


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## chazSingh (May 7, 2015)

As far as i understand the Ego is crucial in creating the illusion of the 'many' when there is in fact really only one...
Waheguru created the Ego so that an individual experience could be had....but the reality is there is only Waheguru...

The lower the Ego, the greater the merging / feeling of being the 'one'...the lower the Ego, the less the illusion of separateness...the more we 'literally' see God...everywhere...in everything...Sat Yug

the harder the Ego, the more boundaries and lines we see....God is not seen anymore...only the characters in his play...and the 5 thieves over rule human behavior. thus the age if kaljug...

in the sickness of the Ego lies the cure...the game of love as described by Guru Ji.

Simran and Seva being the key to dissolve the hardness of the ego, the fog in the mind..so that the one light can be seen...
just like in the above shabad...when one understands the Ego, the Door to waheguru opens (within)


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## chazSingh (May 8, 2015)

*In all dialogue there is “You and I” even in a conversation with the Creator. In a merger termed “us” there is you and I.*

There are shabads where Guru Ji says "everywhere i look, i see only you"...which would mean, when he looks at himself...he see's only Him (waheguru)....therefore the "I" and "You" could possibly only be a restriction of language..language which is a construct of the dualistic mind...language has it's restrictions...after that only first hand experience can shatter those restrictions. The I and You being merely a description to help the rest of us visualize what is going on...because the reality is, this state cannot be explained.


Also, Gurbani Clearly states that the state of a brahmgiani cannot be known or described in any way...therefore it is a pointless exercise using our minds to understand such a state that the Guru Ji's were in....it's absolutely pointless...to the point where i think Guru Ji says we would be stupid to even attempt :

for the rest of us, of course Ego has it's place...it is through Ego, that all of us could be tricked into thinking we are hardened individuals (the many) to the point we question the existance of Waheguru and try to destroy one another in some way shape or form...now that we have seperated ourselves to this extent...the journey home begins...do we have the strength, the will power to...the LOVE to slice the layers off our Ego to return to our true state of being again? how remarkable is his creation?


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## Sherdil (May 22, 2015)

IJSingh said:


> I suggest that our confusion is shortsighted. We overlook that these lines of Guru Nanak are immediately followed by a brief hymn by Guru Angad on the same page (p.466). I offer a few lines:
> 
> Ha-umai kithhu oopjai kit sanjam ih jaa-ay (Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?)
> Ha-umai ayho hukam hai pa-i-ai kirat firaahi (This ego exists by the Lord’s Order….)
> Ha-umai deeragh rog hai daaroo bhee is maahi (Ego is a chronic malady, but its panacea lies within the disease.)



It's viewing dukh (pain) and sukh (pleasure) as one. Often, these are subjective interpretations of the circumstances. Gurbani tells us that whatever happens is sukh because it is per the Hukam.

At first glance a very bad situation appears to be dukh, but it is in these situations that people usually turn to the Divine for help. A blessing in disguise.

Haumai creates dukh, which can lead a person back to the One.

GGS, page 469:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
सलोकु मः १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
दुखु दारू सुखु रोगु भइआ जा सुखु तामि न होई ॥
Ḏukẖ ḏārū sukẖ rog bẖa▫i▫ā jā sukẖ ṯām na ho▫ī.
*Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.*

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
तूं करता करणा मै नाही जा हउ करी न होई ॥१॥
Ŧūŉ karṯā karṇā mai nāhī jā ha▫o karī na ho▫ī. ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||

ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥
बलिहारी कुदरति वसिआ ॥
Balihārī kuḏraṯ vasi▫ā.
I am a sacrifice to Your almighty creative power which is pervading everywhere.

ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
तेरा अंतु न जाई लखिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ŧerā anṯ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Your limits cannot be known. ||1||Pause||

ਜਾਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਤਾ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥
जाति महि जोति जोति महि जाता अकल कला भरपूरि रहिआ ॥
Jāṯ mėh joṯ joṯ mėh jāṯā akal kalā bẖarpūr rahi▫ā.
Your Light is in Your creatures, and Your creatures are in Your Light; Your almighty power is pervading everywhere.

ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸੁਆਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥
तूं सचा साहिबु सिफति सुआल्हिउ जिनि कीती सो पारि पइआ ॥
Ŧūŉ sacẖā sāhib sifaṯ su▫āliha▫o jin kīṯī so pār pa▫i▫ā.
You are the True Lord and Master; Your Praise is so beautiful. One who sings it, is carried across.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥
कहु नानक करते कीआ बाता जो किछु करणा सु करि रहिआ ॥२॥
Kaho Nānak karṯe kī▫ā bāṯā jo kicẖẖ karṇā so kar rahi▫ā. ||2||
Nanak speaks the stories of the Creator Lord; whatever He is to do, He does. ||2||


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.



Sikhism is supposed to be an enlightened religion, far away fro, the fear and carrot driven methodology that seems popular. To foist bad situations in order to drive people back to God does not seem particularly enlightened to me. 

It is however, quite Abrahamic, a bit like a lot of the translations that seem to keep getting quoted....


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## japjisahib04 (May 23, 2015)

Let us know what actually is 'dukh' in 'Dukh daaru'. Gurbani tells us, 'ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ I suffered in pain/miseries, when I thought He was far away/separated from me due to my evil thought process.SGGS.384.12. Like ‘kirat karam kai vichdai kar kirpa mailo raam.(Otherwise In Sikhi, there is no separation between ourselves and Ik Ong Kaar. It is an Abrahamic thought process which got inserted in Sikhi by the earlier translators of Gurbani who were all Christians; hence the biblical twist was unconscious. Sadly, the Sikhs who became their students continued with the same mentality.

Ik Ong Kaar resides in all of us and is manifested by us through our deeds. This modus operandi is learnt by us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. When we have this type of thinking it makes dukh as daaru. So in this pankti dukh in positive sense is in separation of God. whereas second 'sukh rog bhaiya' entangled in worldly luxuries comes in negative sense which is also in separation of God. Then 'ja sukh tam na hoey' - I am looking that 'sukh' which is eternal and by which (taam - ahnkaar)vikars does not enters into my mind at all. And that eternal bliss is achieved by divine wisdom with burning desire of surrendering to His Laws.


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## Original (May 23, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> It's viewing dukh (pain) and sukh (pleasure) as one. Often, these are subjective interpretations of the circumstances. Gurbani tells us that whatever happens is sukh because it is per the Hukam.





Sherdil said:


> It's viewing dukh (pain) and sukh (pleasure) as one. Often, these are subjective interpretations of the circumstances. Gurbani tells us that whatever happens is sukh because it is per the Hukam.
> 
> At first glance a very bad situation appears to be dukh, but it is in these situations that people usually turn to the Divine for help. A blessing in disguise.
> 
> ...



Gentlemen

The link between literature and religion is fundamental in the understanding and realisation of human experience. Gurbani is the light of life, a *guide* en route the bumpy journey of human endeavours. It's charisma lies in giving a balanced direction to life's many situations whilst anchoring a steadfast belief in the one transcendent Ikonkar.

The net result of the above verses by Baba Nanak [469] is to give credence to the "ineffability" and  the "ingenuity" of Akal Purakh's incomprehensible workings. Why or what relevance that has with I J Singh's essay [Ego] beats me ?

Much obliged


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## Sherdil (May 23, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Sikhism is supposed to be an enlightened religion, far away fro, the fear and carrot driven methodology that seems popular. To foist bad situations in order to drive people back to God does not seem particularly enlightened to me.
> 
> It is however, quite Abrahamic, a bit like a lot of the translations that seem to keep getting quoted....



I don't find it Abrahamic. A bearded man in the sky is not handing down punishments to us mortals so that we may repent.

The message is of looking for the silver lining. A glass half full, instead of half empty. Haumai may be the disease because it causes suffering, but it is the suffering that rectifies the behavior. If you get burned by touching a hot stove, you learn not to touch it again (hopefully the first time).

Many people look for the spiritual path when they have been burned by other avenues. Others never learn. They chase after Maya to satisfy their hunger, but to no avail. Gurbani says that this bhukh (hunger) cannot be satiated even by indulging in all the world's pleasures. You will always want more and will never be happy.

Your Haumai exists because of what you have done in the past. The more you think in duality, the stronger it gets and the harder it is to shake. Someone who has spent their life putting themselves first may have a difficult time shaking Haumai, or even understanding why they suffer. Whereas someone who spent their life putting others first may be able to remove Haumai with ease.

In the end, it's NOT YOU who is doing anything. It is the One who is doing everything. It is this subtlety that is the key to rising above good and bad or sukh and dukh.


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## Original (May 24, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> It's viewing dukh (pain) and sukh (pleasure) as one. Often, these are subjective interpretations of the circumstances. Gurbani tells us that whatever happens is sukh because it is per the Hukam.
> 
> At first glance a very bad situation appears to be dukh, but it is in these situations that people usually turn to the Divine for help. A blessing in disguise.
> 
> ...




Sherdil Ji

Following on from what I ventured out to determine earlier [above] re page 469 of SGGSJ, I remain on course to achieve the same, and in so doing, offer, if you'd like an opinion and general guidance to understand the ebb n flow of Guru Nanak's writings.

The beautiful thing about SGGSJ is that it is universal and is accessable to all in measures of proportional appetite and circumstance. In a way, it's like a water hole in the middle of the savanna grasslands towards which all living things congregate, particularly in dry season for survival sake. Similarly, for whatever reason we turn to SGGJS is not of any significant consequence, but infact, a divine moment gracefully endowed by Akal Purakh in the face of such uncertain and an indefinite a life to help human struggle. It is important therefore to laud the best of human endeavours to capture thought n feeling of such divine narratives in its originality. For if we don't, then there is the danger in removing essential segments of the crux of the statement. This would not only distort writers intended meaning but also take away the original linguistic conveyance with which the writer set out to achieve in the first place.

For example, the verses you refer to [Asa di Var 469 SGGSJ] are in I'm my view, drawn out of context. Guru Nanak's main focuses is on the "ineffability" of Akal Purak's deterministic universe [mechanistically working for humankind] in its mystical nature "gracefully" [Nanak used human condition dukhsukh to bring about teleological end]. Nanak places emphasis on grace which leads one to remembrance of and in union with Akal Purakh. It is in this sense that he calls pleasure [sukh] an illness, for it makes one forget the Almighty, but equally reverts to pain [dukh] as a cure, for it is in adversity that we remember God.

Guru Nanak moves on to praise the Lord by calling Him the creator, Infinite, the True and the One light in all.

As a summary in lay man's lingo, " oh God you too big n wide for me to comprehend. Even if I try, I'll only kid myself. Thou Art beautiful and look how through sukh n dukh you achieve desired result. Thou Art Thou Art Kool n Deadly".

I'm sorry but the haumai connection with the shabd 469 is undetectable on my radar.

Thank you for reading !

Take care


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## Sherdil (May 24, 2015)

Original said:


> Sherdil Ji
> 
> Following on from what I ventured out to determine earlier [above] re page 469 of SGGSJ, I remain on course to achieve the same, and in so doing, offer, if you'd like an opinion and general guidance to understand the ebb n flow of Guru Nanak's writings.
> 
> The beautiful thing about SGGSJ is that it is universal and is accessable to all in measures of proportional appetite and circumstance. In a way, it's like a water hole in the middle of the savanna grasslands towards which all living things congregate, particularly in dry season for survival sake. Similarly, for whatever reason we turn to SGGJS is not of any significant consequence, but infact, a divine moment gracefully endowed by Akal Purakh in the face of such uncertain and an indefinite a life to help human struggle. It is important therefore to laud the best of human endeavours to capture thought n feeling of such divine narratives in its originality. For if we don't, then there is the danger in removing essential segments of the crux of the statement. This would not only distort writers intended meaning but also take away the original linguistic conveyance with which the writer set out to achieve in the first place.



My goodness...you have a talent for saying very little with so many words. Trim the fat and get on with it. There must be better things you can do with your time.

I found your point here:



Original said:


> For example, the verses you refer to [Asa di Var 469 SGGSJ] are in I'm my view, drawn out of context. Guru Nanak's main focuses is on the "ineffability" of Akal Purak's deterministic universe [mechanistically working for humankind] in its mystical nature "gracefully" [Nanak used human condition dukhsukh to bring about teleological end]. Nanak places emphasis on grace which leads one to remembrance of and in union with Akal Purakh. It is in this sense that he calls pleasure [sukh] an illness, for it makes one forget the Almighty, but equally reverts to pain [dukh] as a cure, for it is in adversity that we remember God.



Unfortunately, it's a rehash of what you said before. I still disagree. Haumai creates your suffering because suffering is merely an interpretation of the circumstance. Through the goggles of Haumai, people cry out in pain when things don't go their way. But in suffering they turn to God and start on the path to realization that they are the cause of their own suffering.

The Soul Bride pining for the Husband Lord can be seen as dukh as well. The pain of separation drives the Soul Bride to close the gap. Without this pain the Soul Bride would remain aloof and in a state of ignorance.

Either way you spin it, you cannot separate Haumai from dukh. They are intertwined.



Original said:


> As a summary in lay man's lingo, " oh God you too big n wide for me to comprehend. Even if I try, I'll only kid myself. Thou Art beautiful and look how through sukh n dukh you achieve desired result. Thou Art Thou Art Kool n Deadly".
> 
> I'm sorry but the haumai connection with the shabd 469 is undetectable on my radar.



In lay man's lingo? Are you then placing yourself above the "lay man"? Although unnecessary, the above provides us with a good example of Haumai. You see, there is sukh and dukh in everything if you look hard enough.

May your radar continue to guide us through the murky waters of this world ocean.

Cheers


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## Original (May 24, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> My goodness...you have a talent for saying very little with so many words. Trim the fat and get on with it. There must be better things you can do with your time.
> 
> I found your point here:
> 
> ...



Hey SDJ -

- you've taken the michael out of what was intended to be an educational text !

Time allowing ? Scan through my text to bro Chaz Ji on "haumai" in Singh is King.

Goodnight n Godbless


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## Harry Haller (May 25, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> I don't find it Abrahamic. A bearded man in the sky is not handing down punishments to us mortals so that we may repent.





Sherdil said:


> Haumai creates dukh, which can lead a person back to the One.



The five beloved were not in dukh when they pledged to the tenth master. That religion exists as a support mechanism, or a carrot producer is far away from what I call Sikhism. I was in hospital a few months ago, cardiac complications, at no point did I pray or ask for God's help, whatever creative force that created me surely relies on knowing how I feel, what words need to be said, what actions need to be made?

I am a Sikh, and therefore not afraid of death, dying, pain, suffering, (although I am a bit scared of enclosed spaces, I would chose death over a stuck lift anyday! ) so I have done my best, I am in a hospital with people fussing all over me, not much more I can do, so just throw it in the air and see what happens. Invariably, if one finds god at such times, how stable a relationship is that going to be anyway? a bit like staying with your partner because they have money and you do not,

so what happened to you two that you made it 25 years of marriage?
Well, I went bankrupt and Simon wasn't!, and the fear of being alone and broke meant I stayed with Simon!

A relationship with God that relies on unhappiness as a way of finding him seems strange to me



Sherdil said:


> The message is of looking for the silver lining. A glass half full, instead of half empty. Haumai may be the disease because it causes suffering, but it is the suffering that rectifies the behavior. If you get burned by touching a hot stove, you learn not to touch it again (hopefully the first time).



Sikhism is a religion, well I say religion, it is more a way of life, that in my opinion, relies on optimism and education, of making mistakes and learning from them, rather than suffering being any key at all.


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## Sherdil (May 26, 2015)

harry haller said:


> The five beloved were not in dukh when they pledged to the tenth master. That religion exists as a support mechanism, or a carrot producer is far away from what I call Sikhism. I was in hospital a few months ago, cardiac complications, at no point did I pray or ask for God's help, whatever creative force that created me surely relies on knowing how I feel, what words need to be said, what actions need to be made?
> 
> I am a Sikh, and therefore not afraid of death, dying, pain, suffering, (although I am a bit scared of enclosed spaces, I would chose death over a stuck lift anyday! ) so I have done my best, I am in a hospital with people fussing all over me, not much more I can do, so just throw it in the air and see what happens. Invariably, if one finds god at such times, how stable a relationship is that going to be anyway? a bit like staying with your partner because they have money and you do not,
> 
> ...



Is suffering a pre-requisite for Divine union? Not at all...that's not what I'm saying.

To view suffering and pleasure as one is required to be in consonance with the Hukam. To find pleasure in suffering is to be raazi (content) with the Hukam, which is what Gurbani tells us is the key to being truthful. Like my bro Original said, the Hukam is ineffable. Therefore the fault lies with us, it doesn't lie with our stars.

Ask yourself what it is that you want out of this life? Happiness? Then acceptance and letting go seem to be the key.

As for the 5 Beloved Ones, I would not say they were in dukh. But I will conclude that their Haumai was very little if not entirely lacking. Thus, they felt no qualms in accepting the Hukam of their Guru.


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## Harry Haller (May 26, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Is suffering a pre-requisite for Divine union? Not at all...that's not what I'm saying.



Suffering is suffering, its a bad place to be,



Sherdil said:


> To view suffering and pleasure as one is required to be in consonance with the Hukam



I would say it is virtually impossible for a normal human being to view suffering and pleasure as one. To say that one needs to do this to be in consonance with Hukam, is also, in my view, incorrect.



Sherdil said:


> To find pleasure in suffering is to be raazi (content) with the Hukam,



Hmmmmm again I strongly disagree, you make Hukam sound like the will of God, when I view Hukam more as rules of life, a bit like gravity. For instance if one jumps of a tall building and succumbs to gravity, which in my view, is a Hukam, and then breaks an arm, and is then pleased at such, I do not see a Sikh, I see an idiot. If we eat too much we get fat, if we sleep around we may get an STD, why would any religion advocate pleasure in suffering?



Sherdil said:


> Ask yourself what it is that you want out of this life?



Mostly? just to know who I am, and be that person



Sherdil said:


> Happiness?



oh, not at all, I do not wish to be unhappy, but I am through with chasing happiness, its pointless.

You seem to think of Sikhism and Sikhs as people that view suffering and pleasure as completely the same, I view Sikhs as intelligent people of great wisdom, who, whilst they do not chase pleasure, lead happy and content lives and deal with suffering as and when.


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## japjisahib04 (May 26, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Is suffering a pre-requisite for Divine union? Not at all...that's not what I'm saying.


Suffering is suffering no doubt, but guru sahib throughout is not referring to suffering related with health, financial problem and or from siblings but this pain is due to feeling of separation from Divine, as  gurbani tells us, 'ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ I suffer in pain/miseries, when I realize he is far away/separated from me.SGGS.384.12.

Even when guru sahib says, 'ਕੇਤਿਆ ਦੂਖ ਭੂਖ ਸਦ ਮਾਰ ॥ ਏਹਿ ਭਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ॥ - Since concept of God is karta purakh - creative thus question of bestowing sufferings does not arise, as such over here also guru sahib is referring to pain of separation from Him.

best regards


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## Original (May 26, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Is suffering a pre-requisite for Divine union? Not at all...that's not what I'm saying.
> 
> To view suffering and pleasure as one is required to be in consonance with the Hukam. To find pleasure in suffering is to be raazi (content) with the Hukam, which is what Gurbani tells us is the key to being truthful. Like my bro Original said, the Hukam is ineffable. Therefore the fault lies with us, it doesn't lie with our stars.
> 
> ...



SDJ

Minor correction, Hukam is Eternal Law [deterministic universe and humankind's moral obligations] and Akal Purakh [beyond time n space divine being] is "ineffable". Some of the language used SGGSJ is interchangeable and synonymous with much of Nanak's dargah parmeshar ki [meeting with the Lord].

Another interesting observation, if I may, is that Sikhism is very clear on pleasure, happiness and bliss. And, the beauty lies therein, that, sizeable population is trapped in pleasure-land and those who consciously or otherwise manage to get pass that particular comfort zone, home in to the successive happiness one, where they remain indefinitely and make others aspire to, thinking life's B n E is happiness/ contentment and switch off. But, Nanak invites us to taste the state beyond pleasure n happiness - the bliss [anand] .

In one of your communications SDJ you did "touch" albeit subconsciously. And, I think if we move away from the literal interpretation to the rationale understanding of Gurbani - the penny is more likely to drop than not to, and 24/7 - its "Loveland" - the "one" without.

Ciao - till another time !


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## chazSingh (May 26, 2015)

walking into the dark, you now see and appreciate and understand light...
touching hot, you forge an experience of the cold..
through the created, you can come to know what has not been created but which has been present through all ages...
through form, we can understand and experience the formless...
through dukh, we seek sukh...
after oh so many experiences...the soul eventually transcends duality and realizes that all is actually only one...and the soul resides in chardikala

Ego has it's place...to give you this experience of being completely seperate from waheguru...but the time comes where it must be dissolved so that duality evaporates and we see only one...everywhere...and my grammar and spelling improves


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## Original (May 26, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> walking into the dark, you now see and appreciate and understand light...
> touching hot, you forge an experience of the cold..
> through the created, you can come to know what has not been created but which has been present through all ages...
> through form, we can understand and experience the formless...
> ...



This is the Chaz I know ! Beautifully said -


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## Sherdil (May 26, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Suffering is suffering no doubt, but guru sahib throughout is not referring to suffering related with health, financial problem and or from siblings but this pain is due to feeling of separation from Divine, as  gurbani tells us, 'ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ I suffer in pain/miseries, when I realize he is far away/separated from me.SGGS.384.12.
> 
> Even when guru sahib says, 'ਕੇਤਿਆ ਦੂਖ ਭੂਖ ਸਦ ਮਾਰ ॥ ਏਹਿ ਭਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ॥ - Since concept of God is karta purakh - creative thus question of bestowing sufferings does not arise, as such over here also guru sahib is referring to pain of separation from Him.
> 
> best regards



Yes japjisahib04, I agree. But doesn't Haumai equate to a sense of separation? Thus it is Haumai that creates our suffering. In this state of Haumai we deal with the world.

Taken from IJ Singh's original post (GGS, page 466):

Ha-o vich aa-i-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they come, and in ego they go.)
Ha-o vich jammi-aa ha-o vich mu-aa (In ego they are born, and in ego they die.)
Ha-o vich ditaa ha-o vich la-i-aa (In ego they give, and in ego they take.)
Ha-o vich khati-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they earn, and in ego they lose.)
Ha-o vich sachiaar koorhi-aar (In ego they become truthful or false.)
Ha-o vich paap punn veechaar (In ego they reflect on virtue and sin.)
Ha-o vich narak surag avatar (In ego they go to heaven or hell.)
Ha-o vich hasai ha-o vich rovai (In ego they laugh, and in ego they weep.)
Ha-o vich bharee-ai ha-o vich Dhovai (In ego they become dirty, and in ego they are washed clean.)
Ha-o vich jaatee jinsee khovai (In ego they lose social status and class.)
Ha-o vich moorakh ha-o vich si-aanaa In ego they are ignorant, and in ego they are wise.)
Mokh mukat kee saar na jaanaa (They do not know the value of salvation and liberation.)
Ha-o vich maa-i-aa ha-o vich chhaa-i-aa (In ego they love Maya, and in ego they are kept in darkness.)
ha-umai kar kar jant upaa-i-aa (Living in ego, mortal beings are created.)
ha-umai boojhai taa dar soojhai (When one understands ego, then the Lord’s gate is known).



Original said:


> Minor correction, Hukam is Eternal Law [deterministic universe and humankind's moral obligations] and Akal Purakh [beyond time n space divine being] is "ineffable". Some of the language used SGGSJ is interchangeable and synonymous with much of Nanak's dargah parmeshar ki [meeting with the Lord].



If Akal Purakh is ineffible, then can't we take the next step to conclude that the Hukam is ineffible as well? As I understand it, Hukam is the cause of all causes. It is something that cannot be resisted. It can only be accepted.

Perhaps a shabadh is in order to appease the sangat and create some accord. I offer the following (GGS page 297):

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਖੈ ਫਲ ਕਬ ਉਤਮ ਕਬ ਨੀਚੁ ॥
त्रितीआ त्रै गुण बिखै फल कब उतम कब नीचु ॥
Ŧariṯī▫ā ṯarai guṇ bikẖai fal kab uṯam kab nīcẖ.
The third day of the lunar cycle: Those who are bound by the three qualities gather poison as their fruit; now they are good, and now they are bad.

ਨਰਕ ਸੁਰਗ ਭ੍ਰਮਤਉ ਘਣੋ ਸਦਾ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ਮੀਚੁ ॥
नरक सुरग भ्रमतउ घणो सदा संघारै मीचु ॥
Narak surag bẖaramṯa▫o gẖaṇo saḏā sangẖārai mīcẖ.
They wander endlessly in heaven and hell, until death annihilates them.

ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਹਾਇ ॥
हरख सोग सहसा संसारु हउ हउ करत बिहाइ ॥
Harakẖ sog sahsā sansār ha▫o ha▫o karaṯ bihā▫e.
In pleasure and pain and worldly cynicism, they pass their lives acting in ego.

ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਉਪਾਇ ॥
जिनि कीए तिसहि न जाणनी चितवहि अनिक उपाइ ॥
Jin kī▫e ṯisėh na jāṇnī cẖiṯvahi anik upā▫e.
They do not know the One who created them; they think up all sorts of schemes and plans.

ਆਧਿ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਉਪਾਧਿ ਰਸ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ਤਾਪ ॥
आधि बिआधि उपाधि रस कबहु न तूटै ताप ॥
Āḏẖ bi▫āḏẖ upāḏẖ ras kabahu na ṯūtai ṯāp.
Their minds and bodies are distracted by pleasure and pain, and their fever never departs.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰਨ ਧਨੀ ਨਹ ਬੂਝੈ ਪਰਤਾਪ ॥
पारब्रहम पूरन धनी नह बूझै परताप ॥
Pārbarahm pūran ḏẖanī nah būjẖai parṯāp.
They do not realize the glorious radiance of the Supreme Lord God, the Perfect Lord and Master.

ਮੋਹ ਭਰਮ ਬੂਡਤ ਘਣੋ ਮਹਾ ਨਰਕ ਮਹਿ ਵਾਸ ॥
मोह भरम बूडत घणो महा नरक महि वास ॥
Moh bẖaram būdaṯ gẖaṇo mahā narak mėh vās.
So many are being drowned in emotional attachment and doubt; they dwell in the most horrible hell.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਸ ॥੩॥
करि किरपा प्रभ राखि लेहु नानक तेरी आस ॥३॥
Kar kirpā parabẖ rākẖ leho Nānak ṯerī ās. ||3||
Please bless me with Your Mercy, God, and save me! Nanak places his hopes in You. ||3||


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## Original (May 27, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Yes japjisahib04, I agree. But doesn't Haumai equate to a sense of separation? Thus it is Haumai that creates our suffering. In this state of Haumai we deal with the world.
> 
> Taken from IJ Singh's original post (GGS, page 466):
> 
> ...



Sherdil Ji

Thanks to you I'm able to start my "working" day [garhasthya jeevan] with a taste of the "real" work [the exponential of His word].

*Akal Purakh,* Ikonkar, Parbraham, Nirankar, and many more are names by which the Gur Ghar recognises the Almighty. Guru Gobind gave around [12 to 1400] names and then decided, "hey Parmeshar thou art ineffable, I cannot capture thee by names [noun]. Alone through thy creation am I to understand [use of adjectives] an iota of thy otherwise infinite, formless, shapeless, timeless "being"". Whereas, "*hakum*" is His Law [Eternal]. That is to say, the Earth orbits around the Sun and the moon around the Earth, the falling of objects [gravity] and the attraction repulsion [magnetism] between matter n energy, and so on. But within this hakum is an inbuilt "moral" code of ethics [thou shall not kill] for the regulation of human conscience and the workings of a social order of his created world [society]. 

Just as we have a "Sovereign State" [the head of which is the Queen, UK] under which the rule of law is applied to maintain and regulate social intercourse between individuals and the state [crime] and between individuals and individuals [civil] and so forth. Similarly, Akal Purakh is the Sovereign and His law is hakum. Gur Nanak defines it beautifully when in Japji Sahib he exhibits in pauri 3 to *7, "...hakum rajayee chalna Nanak likaya nal". *Obey His law says Nanak and all ye shall come to surpass.

Hakum for you as a student should be taken to mean the inexorable working of the universe. From a scientific philoshical perspective we describe that as "deterministic universe", meaning no Free-will. 

Hakum cannot be ineffable for it is an "organ" of that which is ineffable. In other words, part of a whole.

Another important observation need be made here and that is, unlike Christianity's forgiveness n salvation through Christ only, Islam's Mohammed only, plus paradise after death ideology, Buddhism's suffering, Sikhism steers way away from this kind of thought. For Sikhism considers this to be Akal Purakh's "lila" [playground] and we the actors must indeed play albeit within "hakum". This suffering business is best left to the Buddhists, but yes, as a metaphor to bring about the irony of "dukh n sukh" Nanak introduces the "notion" to steer the wondering soul into perspective of the greatness, the ineffable character of Akal Purakh of which she the soul is a part.

Moving on with the shabd you've quoted, it is imparative to understand the very basic concept of the form of communication which the Gur Ghar has used to proclaim the majesty of Waheguru. Pauri in question cannot be read without the preamble [salok]. Why ? Because, the pauri is the furtherance, in depth exploration, explanation of the preamble. It is usually set out at the beginning of the shabd, but in Jabji Sahib, Gur Nanak puts at the end.

Another must is to recognise whether it a raag or a salok. The discernment between the two is fundamental because it describes the mood and the condition of the author or the singer. If it be a raag for example, say Nanak, then you immediately get to grips that this raag of Nanak is not the ordinary human experience but an extra-ordinary [dhur ki bani] audible sound composition, spun off Mardanna's rebab and Nanak amplifying it "poetically". This means one must surrender to the sound of music and let its sweet, soft, melodious vibrations be funnelled into the soul through his ears, the effect of which on the mind is to soften it as iron is softened in the furnace [pauri 38 Japji Sahib]. The gist of what I'm saying is that Poetry must be enjoyed by the yearning soul and not interrogated by the wandering mind. Yes, were it a salok, discuss it for msg, meaning n direction etc, but in essence appreciate it for its holiness, nevertheless. That is not to say, poetry cannot be discussed, of course it can, through "love", through surrender, without want n purpose but in utter n total awe.

The above shabd [297] has at core of its preamble the 3 states of human spectrum and the few who make it to the 4th [turyia]. Gur Arjun elaborates upon it poetically in the succeeding pauri, which you've quoted. 

Hope I been successful in discharging an obligation with which you've charged.

Enjoy the day wherever you are - I will.

Many thanks


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## japjisahib04 (May 27, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> But doesn't Haumai equate to a sense of separation? Thus it is Haumai that creates our suffering. In this state of Haumai we deal with the world.


 It depends what type of haumai we cherish whether it is linked with momentarily pleasure of rat race or winning over others, or love of God. Thus just think 'Ha-umai kithhu oopjai kit sanjam ih jaa-ay (Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?). In order to live in state of ecstacy Guru sahib advises, 'ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੁ ॥ O my mind, His guidance is always with you, listen and enjoy His Love.



Sherdil said:


> Taken from IJ Singh's original post (GGS, page 466):
> 
> Ha-o vich aa-i-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they come, and in ego they go.)
> Ha-o vich jammi-aa ha-o vich mu-aa (In ego they are born, and in ego they die.)
> ...


 When guru sahib says, 'Ha-o vich aa-i-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa Ha-o vich jammi-aa ha-o vich mu-aa(In ego they come, and in ego they go,  In ego they are born, and in ego they die - did I landed in this world with hau and with hau only I will go. No - Guru sahib says, 'gur seva tai bhagat kamaee tabh eh manas daihi payee, thus guru sahib is not referring to the haumai required to live with dignity in this world but is referring to, 'ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥ and as such 'My manh filled duality(ਕੂੜਿਆਰ) daily attempts in vain to listen the voice of conscience (Ha-o vich aa-i-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa) and in that state of mind 'dies and is reborn again every now and then(Ha-o vich jammi-aa ha-o vich mu-aa) and not referring to physical birth or physical suffering. Our door of haumai is closed( Mokẖ mukaṯ kī sār na jāṇā)open it


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## Sherdil (May 27, 2015)

Original said:


> But within this hakum is an inbuilt "moral" code of ethics [thou shall not kill] for the regulation of human conscience and the workings of a social order of his created world [society].
> 
> Just as we have a "Sovereign State" [the head of which is the Queen, UK] under which the rule of law is applied to maintain and regulate social intercourse between individuals and the state [crime] and between individuals and individuals [civil] and so forth. Similarly, Akal Purakh is the Sovereign and His law is hakum. Gur Nanak defines it beautifully when in Japji Sahib he exhibits in pauri 3 to *7, "...hakum rajayee chalna Nanak likaya nal". *Obey His law says Nanak and all ye shall come to surpass.



You are forgetting that it is the Hukam that links us to our tasks. You cannot view it from a man-made system of morality or governance. He is the accused, accuser, jury and judge. He is both cause and effect. It is He who is doing all. In the primordial beginning, when the One sat alone in the void, who was good and who was bad? Who suffered? Who was there to take account of our actions? It was only Him then and it is only Him now. Therefore, the discord that exists between us and the Hukam lies in our delusion that we have some control over the circumstances when we really don't. The only thing we have control over is how we interpret the circumstances. That is the test of whether we are truly raazi. "Hukam raazi chalna, Nanak likhiya naal". With "likhiya naal" Guru ji says that he writes with the Hukam, because it is the Hukam that commands him to write. He does not take any credit for what he pens down, rather he gives all credit to the Divine. It is Gur prasaad (given by the grace of the Divine). "Hukmi Hukam chalahe rahu, Nanak vigseh veparvahu" (GGS, page 2). - His command determines the path. He blossoms forth carefree (He is above all. No one commands Him. It can also be taken to mean that Nanak becomes carefree upon seeing that all is in God's hands).



Original said:


> This suffering business is best left to the Buddhists, but yes, as a metaphor to bring about the irony of "dukh n sukh" Nanak introduces the "notion" to steer the wondering soul into perspective of the greatness, the ineffable character of Akal Purakh of which she the soul is a part.



The whole world suffers, not just the Buddhists. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for Guru Nanak to incorporate suffering into his philosophy. This suffering is summarized with analogy of the Soul Bride and the Husband Lord. Proximity brings peace. Distance creates suffering. Haumai is synonymous with distance. As long as you view yourself as a distinct entity, you will suffer. The "I am" is the illusion, therefore suffering is an illusion by extension of it coming from "I am".

The pauree I posted exists as part of a series, but it is capable of standing on its own. Much like a paragraph can stand alone because it is formed around a point of its own. The various points then further the main point at hand.

Here is another one that follows the same themes of Haumai, Hukam, pain and suffering (GGS, page 214):

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫
रागु गउड़ी माला महला ५
Rāg ga▫oṛī mālā mėhlā 5
Raag Gauree Maalaa, Fifth Mehl:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਇਓ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੇ ॥
पाइओ बाल बुधि सुखु रे ॥
Pā▫i▫o bāl buḏẖ sukẖ re.
Adopting the innocent mind of a child, I have found peace.

ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਹਾਨਿ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਦੂਖ ਸੁਖ ਚਿਤਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
हरख सोग हानि मिरतु दूख सुख चिति समसरि गुर मिले ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Harakẖ sog hān miraṯ ḏūkẖ sukẖ cẖiṯ samsar gur mile. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Joy and sorrow, profit and loss, birth and death, pain and pleasure - they are all the same to my consciousness, since I met the Guru. ||1||Pause||

ਜਉ ਲਉ ਹਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੋਚਉ ਚਿਤਵਉ ਤਉ ਲਉ ਦੁਖਨੁ ਭਰੇ ॥
जउ लउ हउ किछु सोचउ चितवउ तउ लउ दुखनु भरे ॥
Ja▫o la▫o ha▫o kicẖẖ socẖa▫o cẖiṯva▫o ṯa▫o la▫o ḏukẖan bẖare.
As long as I plotted and planned things, I was full of frustration.

ਜਉ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਤਉ ਆਨਦ ਸਹਜੇ ॥੧॥
जउ क्रिपालु गुरु पूरा भेटिआ तउ आनद सहजे ॥१॥
Ja▫o kirpāl gur pūrā bẖeti▫ā ṯa▫o ānaḏ sėhje. ||1||
When I met the Kind, Perfect Guru, then I obtained bliss so easily. ||1||

ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਆਨਪ ਕਰਮ ਹਉ ਕੀਏ ਤੇਤੇ ਬੰਧ ਪਰੇ ॥
जेती सिआनप करम हउ कीए तेते बंध परे ॥
Jeṯī si▫ānap karam ha▫o kī▫e ṯeṯe banḏẖ pare.
The more clever tricks I tried, the more bonds I was saddled with.

ਜਉ ਸਾਧੂ ਕਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਰਿਓ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਮੁਕਤ ਭਏ ॥੨॥
जउ साधू करु मसतकि धरिओ तब हम मुकत भए ॥२॥
Ja▫o sāḏẖū kar masṯak ḏẖari▫o ṯab ham mukaṯ bẖa▫e. ||2||
When the Holy Saint placed His Hand upon my forehead, then I was liberated. ||2||

ਜਉ ਲਉ ਮੇਰੋ ਮੇਰੋ ਕਰਤੋ ਤਉ ਲਉ ਬਿਖੁ ਘੇਰੇ ॥
जउ लउ मेरो मेरो करतो तउ लउ बिखु घेरे ॥
Ja▫o la▫o mero mero karṯo ṯa▫o la▫o bikẖ gẖere.
As long as I claimed, "Mine, mine!", I was surrounded by wickedness and corruption.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਬੁਧਿ ਅਰਪੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੋਏ ॥੩॥
मनु तनु बुधि अरपी ठाकुर कउ तब हम सहजि सोए ॥३॥
Man ṯan buḏẖ arpī ṯẖākur ka▫o ṯab ham sahj so▫e. ||3||
But when I dedicated my mind, body and intellect to my Lord and Master, then I began to sleep in peace. ||3||

ਜਉ ਲਉ ਪੋਟ ਉਠਾਈ ਚਲਿਅਉ ਤਉ ਲਉ ਡਾਨ ਭਰੇ ॥
जउ लउ पोट उठाई चलिअउ तउ लउ डान भरे ॥
Ja▫o la▫o pot uṯẖā▫ī cẖali▫a▫o ṯa▫o la▫o dān bẖare.
As long as I walked along, carrying the load, I continued to pay the fine.

ਪੋਟ ਡਾਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਏ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੫੯॥
पोट डारि गुरु पूरा मिलिआ तउ नानक निरभए ॥४॥१॥१५९॥
Pot dār gur pūrā mili▫ā ṯa▫o Nānak nirbẖa▫e. ||4||1||159||
But I threw away that bundle, when I met the Perfect Guru; O Nanak, then I became fearless. ||4||1||159||


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## Original (May 27, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> You are forgetting that it is the Hukam that links us to our tasks. You cannot view it from a man-made system of morality or governance. He is the accused, accuser, jury and judge. He is both cause and effect. It is He who is doing all. In the primordial beginning, when the One sat alone in the void, who was good and who was bad? Who suffered? Who was there to take account of our actions? It was only Him then and it is only Him now. Therefore, the discord that exists between us and the Hukam lies in our delusion that we have some control over the circumstances when we really don't. The only thing we have control over is how we interpret the circumstances. That is the test of whether we are truly raazi. "Hukam raazi chalna, Nanak likhiya naal". With "likhiya naal" Guru ji says that he writes with the Hukam, because it is the Hukam that commands him to write. He does not take any credit for what he pens down, rather he gives all credit to the Divine. It is Gur prasaad (given by the grace of the Divine). "Hukmi Hukam chalahe rahu, Nanak vigseh veparvahu" (GGS, page 2). - His command determines the path. He blossoms forth carefree (He is above all. No one commands Him. It can also be taken to mean that Nanak becomes carefree upon seeing that all is in God's hands).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sherdil Ji

I did set out to reply but lost it in transition ! I'll reserve my adjudications for the time being and leave you with something worthwhile.

As with all things, the shortest distance between a human being and Trurh is a story - its from Zen Buddhism - enjoy !

A professor of philosophy went to see a great Master, and he asked about God, and he asked about karma, and he asked about the theory of reincarnation, and he asked many things... questions and questions and questions. And the Master said, ”You are tired, the journey has been long, and I can see you are perspiring, coming uphill on such a hot summer afternoon. It must have been tiring. You wait; there is no hurry. These questions can wait a little. Let me prepare a cup of tea for you. And who knows? – while drinking the tea you may get the answer.”

Now the professor was a little puzzled and became a little suspicious whether it was right to come to this madman. ”How can the questions be answered just by drinking tea?” But now there was no way of going; he had to rest a little. ”And the tea is not going to hurt in any way, so why not drink it and then escape from here?”

The Master brought the tea, started pouring from his kettle into the cup, and went on pouring. The cup was full, and the tea started overflowing into the saucer, and the saucer was full. Then the professor said, ”Stop! What are you doing? The tea will start overflowing on the floor. Now the cup has not even space for a single drop more. Are you mad or something?”

The Master had a hearty laugh, and he said, ”So, you ARE intelligent! You can understand. If there is no space in the cup then we cannot pour any more tea into it. Is there space in your head? I would like to pour all that I am, but is there space in your head? Is it not overfull, too much stuffed?
”This is my answer,” the Master said. ”Come again. First empty your head. Come in a state of not knowing. You are too knowledgeable. I can hear all the noise that is going on inside you. Come a little more in silence. And you have not come to learn – you have come to argue.”

Goodnight n Godbless !


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## Original (May 11, 2016)

Sherdil said:


> You are forgetting that it is the Hukam that links us to our tasks. You cannot view it from a man-made system of morality or governance. He is the accused, accuser, jury and judge. He is both cause and effect. It is He who is doing all. In the primordial beginning, when the One sat alone in the void, who was good and who was bad? Who suffered? Who was there to take account of our actions? It was only Him then and it is only Him now. Therefore, the discord that exists between us and the Hukam lies in our delusion that we have some control over the circumstances when we really don't. The only thing we have control over is how we interpret the circumstances. That is the test of whether we are truly raazi. "Hukam raazi chalna, Nanak likhiya naal". With "likhiya naal" Guru ji says that he writes with the Hukam, because it is the Hukam that commands him to write. He does not take any credit for what he pens down, rather he gives all credit to the Divine. It is Gur prasaad (given by the grace of the Divine). "Hukmi Hukam chalahe rahu, Nanak vigseh veparvahu" (GGS, page 2). - His command determines the path. He blossoms forth carefree (He is above all. No one commands Him. It can also be taken to mean that Nanak becomes carefree upon seeing that all is in God's hands).



With all due respect, I'll tag along with the idea of "hakum" being Eternal Law. Yes, as other organs of God like time, space, matter, primal energy, etc..so too is law [hakum]. As for link-up to our tasks, it is believed to be "karm" [deed:action and thought]. Morality is not entirely man-made, but because the human mind is designed to "do" morality just as it's designed to do language, sexuality, music and so on, morality is innate. Nanak's Waheguru is "non-matter" - although, having created matter it is independent and has left humans to their "karmbhumi" [moral conscience].

I'm sorry but "raazi" ? Are you referring to consent ? The hakum rajayee chalna [japji sahib] is in essence, attend to His "will", that is, Akal Purakh's. Gur Prasad is a state of "being"- more commonly referred to as a "meaningful coincidence" [at the grace of God]



Sherdil said:


> The whole world suffers, not just the Buddhists. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for Guru Nanak to incorporate suffering into his philosophy. This suffering is summarized with analogy of the Soul Bride and the Husband Lord. Proximity brings peace. Distance creates suffering. Haumai is synonymous with distance. As long as you view yourself as a distinct entity, you will suffer. The "I am" is the illusion, therefore suffering is an illusion by extension of it coming from "I am".



Since this is a world of duality with its dual characteristics, that is, hot n cold, good n bad, dukh n such, etc... Sikhism accepts them as foregone conclusions and offers prescriptive remedial practices where they're not side-tracked but dealt with in the course of a disciplined [Sikh Philosophy] way of life. Haumai remains to be seen as an "ego". It is the "I am" that will eventually culminate into the "am" - the one without-Ikonkar. So I J Singh's essay stands on all fours.



Sherdil said:


> The pauree I posted exists as part of a series, but it is capable of standing on its own. Much like a paragraph can stand alone because it is formed around a point of its own. The various points then further the main point at hand.



Let alone a pauree, one alphabet of Gurmukhi will do, the gist of my conveyance is to point out how the Gur Ghar choose methodically, literature-wise and went ahead to give meaning and effect to their charge. The form is very skilfully chosen - first a statement followed by an explanation.

A paragraph usually deals with a distinct theme albeit tangible and all paragraphs put together forms the body of the subject-matter in its entirety. So really, the salok is essential, but as an everyday exercise for the likes of you n me, yes a pauree will suffice.


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## Sikhilove (May 11, 2016)

@IJSingh ji , if you're still around, The last gurbani quote you posted:ha-umai boojhai taa dar soojhai (When one understands ego, then the Lord’s gate is known).

Means that when we understand the thief of Ego, and it's role of testing us and it being the cause of us being kept in the lakh chaurasi joon, we know he Lords Gate, meaning that we understand the Truth, which means that we have reached the gate of Sachkandh, realm of Truth.

Once we realise Ego, and rid ourselves of it/ maya, we are jivan mukht and when we have paid off the karams that we owe, we don't really need to be born again.


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## Harry Haller (May 14, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Once we realise Ego, and rid ourselves of it/ maya, we are jivan mukht and when we have paid off the karams that we owe, we don't really need to be born again.



do you err know of anyone that has achieved this? personally?


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## Sikhilove (May 15, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> do you err know of anyone that has achieved this? personally?



One guy, has rid himself of Ego, yes, but people don't recognise him as a Sant becase he isn't amritshak and looks like a normal guy.


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## Sikhilove (May 15, 2016)

but don't believe anyone who says they have straight away, the are so many false Baba's out there. That's where intuition comes in.


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## Harry Haller (May 15, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> One guy, has rid himself of Ego, yes, but people don't recognise him as a Sant becase he isn't amritshak and looks like a normal guy.



pah big deal I rid myself of ego years ago, its not that hard, I am talking about being jeevan mukht


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## Sikhilove (May 17, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> pah big deal I rid myself of ego years ago, its not that hard, I am talking about being jeevan mukht



If you're rid of Ego then u are Jivan Mukht. Being egoless means acceptance of who u really are- the same stuff as God and being jivan mukht means to be free. 

When you have no ego, there is no I- so you are free from the illusion of being a separate entity.


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## Harry Haller (May 17, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> If you're rid of Ego then u are Jivan Mukht. Being egoless means acceptance of who u really are- the same stuff as God and being jivan mukht means to be free.
> 
> When you have no ego, there is no I- so you are free from the illusion of being a separate entity.



We talk of such things, and try to be less angry, less proud, less egoistical, the above was actually a comment of humour, ie, it is an ego filled statement about losing ego, 

I accept who I really am, not quite sure that equates to Jivan Mukht, although, I am completely free, but I do not feel particularly enlightened, personally, I think all the enlightened ones keep it to themselves, I would be very wary of someone who actually stated their enlightenment.


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (May 17, 2016)

It is a good try to put spiritual wine in materialistic bottles.


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## Sikhilove (May 20, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> We talk of such things, and try to be less angry, less proud, less egoistical, the above was actually a comment of humour, ie, it is an ego filled statement about losing ego,
> 
> I accept who I really am, not quite sure that equates to Jivan Mukht, although, I am completely free, but I do not feel particularly enlightened, personally, I think all the enlightened ones keep it to themselves, I would be very wary of someone who actually stated their enlightenment.



True they say that to inspire, you need to have experienced it yourself- but only if people are willing to learn. The Gurus inspired so many, if we're open to the truth, we'll surely recognise it when it's spoken.


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