# Question For Kala Afghana Supporters



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

what banis do you recite each day?

do you do ardaas?

do you do jaap sahib? chaupai sahib? tav prassad sawyai? rehras sahib?

when you took amrit, what did your panj piyare instruct you to recite daily and do you feel it necessary to follow their advice?

sorry if this is offensive, but i'm new to this so i don't understand how one does the nitnem banis without accepting the words of dasam patshah as gurbani.


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## Sherab (Nov 28, 2007)

Soem of them skip over the ones by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Just what I hear.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

Sherab said:


> Soem of them skip over the ones by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Just what I hear.


 

right. that leave, what...  japji sahib and sohila?  and parts of rehras sahib?  

the sikh rehet maryada specifies panj banis we're supposed to recite daily.  if you "sikp over" the ones by the tenth master, that leaves you with two and a half, and you can't recite ardas either.

so basically you have to break rehat in order to follow kala afghana.  which i guess is fine, because he's excommunicated anyway. 

i just wanted to hear it from the keyboard of someone who does this.  i want to understand how they justify it.


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## Sherab (Nov 28, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> right. that leave, what...  japji sahib and sohila?  and parts of rehras sahib?
> 
> the sikh rehet maryada specifies panj banis we're supposed to recite daily.  if you "sikp over" the ones by the tenth master, that leaves you with two and a half, and you can't recite ardas either.
> 
> ...


Technically though, i think you could do Anand Sahib (by the 3rd Guru), Jap ji Sahib and Jaap Sahib - leaving out any part they feel is to much like "hindu non-sense", for example - stanzas in praise of Durga as the supreme God as found in Dasam Granth.

I wonder how they also defend the view that since God is in everyone (assuming they follow what is in Jap-ji,a s God as present in everyone...), how they can think "hindu doctrine" is present in Dasam Granth....


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 28, 2007)

they don't do Jaap sahib, because it's 100% written by Guru Gobind Singh ji...  and who are we to choose which parts of gurbani are to be "left out" anyway?  it takes a lot of ego for someone to think they know better than Guru sahib what we should be reciting in our daily prayers...  

i find the whole thing bizarre...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

I don't know what purpose they would have in praying at all, since Kala Afghana doesn't believe in the soul, heaven, hell, reincarnation, jams, or afterlife. So it makes sense if they don't believe in half the nitenam banis. According to KA's stated beliefs, Guru is just a man, and therefore capable of making mistakes. When stating he doesn't believe in what is written even in Gurbani of SGGS Ji, one has to wonder what kind of religion it is. And of course, why take amrit, as KA received twice, when you do not believe in amrit, except as public show to win acceptance among Sikhs, like the intelligence officer he is.


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## Inder singh (Apr 2, 2008)

Jasleen Kaur is whole Dasam Granth is written by Tenth master.I have read it and found internal evidence that it is composed by tenth master.

These people are not sikhs.They are ex communists who have joined sikhism.


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## Inder singh (Apr 2, 2008)

His books are on the lines of Bhag singh Ambala's book Dasam Granth nirnay and also on the lines of "Hum Hindu Hain" written by Late Rajju Bhaiya who ws chief of RSS.

In all probabilt books are written in Hathras,UP by RSS and intelligence people.Kala afghana name is used.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Jasleen Kaur is whole Dasam Granth is written by Tenth master.I have read it and found internal evidence that it is composed by tenth master.
> 
> These people are not sikhs.They are ex communists who have joined sikhism.



i have to disagree with your last statement.  in my limited experience, those who become Sikhs by choice are usually more willing to follow Guru sahib.  otherwise, why convert in the first place?

i would rephrase it as, "they are ex-sikhs who became communists".


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 2, 2008)

I think he is referring to GOI intelligence agents who are atheistic and join Sikhism in order to corrupt it.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 2, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I think he is referring to GOI intelligence agents who are atheistic and join Sikhism in order to corrupt it.




ahh, that makes more sense.

i was thinking of the younger generation of confused sikhs who follow those called ‘tankhaiya’ as some sort of "inspirational" leader.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 2, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> These people are not sikhs.They are ex communists who have joined sikhism.


Not all of us, buddy.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 2, 2008)

I am not a fan of Kala Afghana but I dont believe that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani. So, Ill answer anyway. 


jasleen_kaur said:


> what banis do you recite each day?


I don't recite any of them.


jasleen_kaur said:


> do you do ardaas?


Yes, I say Baba Ji/Waheguru, I have no control over your actions. My ardaas is not going to change your decision, and I shouldn't be asking you for anything, becasue I will not get it if it's not meant for me. Even saying this will not affect you in anyway but I'll feel better if I say it... 


jasleen_kaur said:


> do you do jaap sahib? chaupai sahib? tav prassad sawyai? rehras sahib?


Nope


jasleen_kaur said:


> when you took amrit, what did your panj piyare instruct you to recite daily and do you feel it necessary to follow their advice?


I amnot amritdhari and probably won't be taking amrit anymore.


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## Inder singh (Apr 3, 2008)

I am not a fan of Kala Afghana but I dont believe that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani. So, Ill answer anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 	Quote:

What methodolgy you applied for arriving at your decision.Can you let us know?


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 5, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> I am not a fan of Kala Afghana but I dont believe that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani. So, Ill answer anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have explained in a different thread.


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## Inder singh (Apr 6, 2008)

Let us know what thread you have used to explain that.Have you read dasam Granth?


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Let us know what thread you have used to explain that.Have you read dasam Granth?


Dasam Granth - A study, I think. I don't have the link at the moment.


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## carolineislands (Apr 6, 2008)

BhagatSikh ji,

I too, would like to hear your reasoning for your beliefs.  I tried to find the thread in which you explained this but didn't see it.  Perhaps you could explain more about it here for those of us who weren't around when it was discussed before.

If you don't believe Dasam Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji, then do you follow rehat maryada?  What about the Khalsa?  Where do you stand on that and amrit?  How many Sikhs are out there that believe as you do?  This is interesting to me because I picked up on quite a few things that seem like contradictions in some of the philosophies concerning these issues from the very beginning of my experience on this forum.  And, although I've read more about the political conflicts and oppression of Sikhs in Punjab, especially conflicts with Hindutsva, I have more understanding of the necessity of some of the 'policies' of Sikhism, i.e., the rehat maryada and central government of the religion.  But I still am a little disturbed by some things that continue to appear to me as contradictions.

I readily admit that I am NOT knowledgable about Sikhi and so I don't really want anyone to get offended or emotional about this.  I am asking in order to learn.  I have heard a couple points of view that support the current structure of the organized religion of Sikhism.  I would like to hear the view points of others as well.  For instance, I don't quite understand why some Sikhs get so passionately offended at the idea that the current "mainstream" practices have rituals built in when it is so obviously so.  I am currently reading the rehat maryada and the rituals are clearly outlined right up on the page... just how to carry the SGGS, how to walk around this way, how to enter, who can sing and who can't and exactly what they can and can't sing, which knee to have up and which to have down etc etc...  Now, I am not criticizing this.  There is nothing wrong with having this kind of structure if that's what the religion believes in and feels they need.  My question is why is it such a cardinal sin to call it what it is?  And my other question is if I am the only one who wonders why it doesn't seem to disturb anybody that those are the kinds of things that Guru Nanak spoke against.  
Who says what is and isn't gurbani?  Who says what is and isn't Guru Gobind Singh's writing?  And why is it such a horrible thing to ask these questions?

When was rehat maryada written?  What is the date?  Who made the decisions?  What did they base those decisions on?

When I ask these questions I mainly get the history of oppression of Sikhs by Hindus and have heard that people who question this current structure are mainly undercover Hindu saboteurs out to deconstruct Sikhism from within (or without as the case may be).

But I just can't believe that wanting to know when rehat maryada was written, by whom, and by whose authority should be a taboo question.  I also don't think it should be taboo to say that it seems to conflict with the message of Sikhi.  Politics aside - I just would like to have my questions answered.  I am not trying to align myself with Hindutsva -- I just want to know if rehat maryada was something that came from the guru's writings or if it is something that was made up later by a group of officials and if so, by what authority did they make the rules up?

Is there any other authority in other groups or is this the only one?  Is it the authority because it holds the majority of followers or does it have another base for authority?  Obviously there are Sikhs who don't subscribe to all of it's edicts.  What is the basis for their beliefs?

Thanks!


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## carolineislands (Apr 6, 2008)

Okay, I found some of the information I was looking for re: when rehat maryada was written and by whom.  

I am curious to know about people who don't accept dasam granth as guru's bani because it seems that a LOT of the rehat maryada is based on the belief that dasam granth WAS guru's writing.


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## Inder singh (Apr 8, 2008)

I doubt if bHagat singh knows anything about Dasam Granth.had he known it he won't be searching for some vague thread.


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## carolineislands (Apr 8, 2008)

Thank you.  I found some articles on Dasam Granth.  I just wanted to hear both sides of the issue.


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## Inder singh (Apr 8, 2008)

Carolineislands

Sikhs have two aspects of their religion/Guru Granth and Guru Panth.Message of Guru Granth is spiritual or message to mind and universal in nature.Then sikhs have Guru panth in the shape of Panj piaras.That governs the organizational aspect of sikhs.

The rehat was dictated by Guru gobind singh when khalas was initiated such as what kakars to keep when baptized,what banis to read in nitnem,whta things to abstain in life etc etc.Then we had rehat namas written by many Hazuri sikhs of tenth master.Thirdly we have oral history or traditions
that trasfer from generation to generation.

Sikh rehat maryada was written over a period of 20 years discussion by eminent sikhs who were well versed in sikh ethos.They referreed to all material from guru ji's time to arrive at their decisions.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> BhagatSikh ji,


My name is Bhagat Singh


carolineislands said:


> I too, would like to hear your reasoning for your beliefs.  I tried to find the thread in which you explained this but didn't see it.  Perhaps you could explain more about it here for those of us who weren't around when it was discussed before.


the article
http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/article/DASAM%20GRANTH%20-%20ITS%20HISTORY.PDF
and the topic on sikhphilosophy.net
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/19294-dasam-granth-and-its-history.html
 Sorry the post was called Dasam Granth and it's history, but the other topic exists as well.


carolineislands said:


> If you don't believe Dasam Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji, then do you follow rehat maryada?


No.


carolineislands said:


> What about the Khalsa?


that has nothing to do with Dasam Granth. 


carolineislands said:


> Where do you stand on that and amrit?


These are completely my views:
I think, Amrit was something to attract a crowd. It's simply sweetened water, nothing special. I believe, its the life one lives, that makes one a khalsa, not drinking of sweetened water. 
I believe,  Guru Gobind Singh ji did this "ritual" (yes I said ritual) to attract large numbers of people because something visual would have more appeal than simply stating something(I can expand on this if u want). It should be treated nothing more than an old tradition. 


carolineislands said:


> How many Sikhs are out there that believe as you do?


I have no clue but I know kala Afghana would agree with me one this one. :whisling:
I believed such things, before I knew of kala afghana so don't say i am following his cult or sumtin.


carolineislands said:


> This is interesting to me because I picked up on quite a few things that seem like contradictions in some of the philosophies concerning these issues from the very beginning of my experience on this forum.


I feel the same way.


carolineislands said:


> And, although I've read more about the political conflicts and oppression of Sikhs in Punjab, especially conflicts with Hindutsva, I have more understanding of the necessity of some of the 'policies' of Sikhism, i.e., the rehat maryada and central government of the religion.  But I still am a little disturbed by some things that continue to appear to me as contradictions.


Same here.


carolineislands said:


> I readily admit that I am NOT knowledgable about Sikhi and so I don't really want anyone to get offended or emotional about this.  I am asking in order to learn.  I have heard a couple points of view that support the current structure of the organized religion of Sikhism.  I would like to hear the view points of others as well.  For instance, I don't quite understand why some Sikhs get so passionately offended at the idea that the current "mainstream" practices have rituals built in when it is so obviously so.  I am currently reading the rehat maryada and the rituals are clearly outlined right up on the page... just how to carry the SGGS, how to walk around this way, how to enter, who can sing and who can't and exactly what they can and can't sing, which knee to have up and which to have down etc etc...  Now, I am not criticizing this.


No, critisize it! See how people respond to you. Those are blind rituals with no meaning. At this point someone is gona get up and be like isnt keeping hair and combing hair a ritual as well. NO, keeping long hair and combing twice a day is not a BLIND ritual. It has logical reasoning behind it.


carolineislands said:


> There is nothing wrong with having this kind of structure if that's what the religion believes in and feels they need.  My question is why is it such a cardinal sin to call it what it is?  And my other question is if I am the only one who wonders why it doesn't seem to disturb anybody that those are the kinds of things that Guru Nanak spoke against.


Yes it distubrs me very much to see these things happening. That's why I am not attracted to gurudwaras anymore. I used to love to go there. I can't help speaking out, and I can't keep my mouth shut, so I just don't go. 


carolineislands said:


> Who says what is and isn't gurbani?


Define gurbani. 


carolineislands said:


> Who says what is and isn't Guru Gobind Singh's writing?


Alot of people.


carolineislands said:


> And why is it such a horrible thing to ask these questions?


 It's not. One should always question their beliefs, so they always remain open minded. Otherwise it becomes blind faith, which Guru Nanak preached against.


carolineislands said:


> When was rehat maryada written?


After the Gurus died.


carolineislands said:


> What is the date?


Not sure, maybe someone else can help u there.


carolineislands said:


> Who made the decisions?  What did they base those decisions on?


 confused here.


carolineislands said:


> When I ask these questions I mainly get the history of oppression of Sikhs by Hindus and have heard that people who question this current structure are mainly undercover Hindu saboteurs out to deconstruct Sikhism from within (or without as the case may be).
> 
> But I just can't believe that wanting to know when rehat maryada was written, by whom, and by whose authority should be a taboo question.  I also don't think it should be taboo to say that it *seems to* conflict with the message of Sikhi.


Seems to? I believe it does!


carolineislands said:


> Politics aside - I just would like to have my questions answered.  I am not trying to align myself with Hindutsva -- I just want to know if rehat maryada was something that came from the guru's writings or if it is something that was made up later by a group of officials and if so, by what authority did they make the rules up?


It was made up later, like the Bible, both have absurdities.


carolineislands said:


> Is there any other authority in other groups or is this the only one?  Is it the authority because it holds the majority of followers or does it have another base for authority?  Obviously there are Sikhs who don't subscribe to all of it's edicts.  What is the basis for their beliefs?


I can't answer that.


carolineislands said:


> Thanks!



No problem


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Carolineislands
> 
> Sikhs have two aspects of their religion/Guru Granth and Guru Panth.Message of Guru Granth is spiritual or message to mind and universal in nature.Then sikhs have Guru panth in the shape of Panj piaras.That governs the organizational aspect of sikhs.
> 
> ...


Does the rehit maryada not tell us to not trust turks and not to befriend them?
Where in SGGS does it say that?
that sounds like the Quran to me, "do not trust or befriend the non-believers."


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> I doubt if bHagat singh knows anything about Dasam Granth.had he known it he won't be searching for some vague thread.


I was searching for some vague thread??
Okkk there.:{-


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## Inder singh (Apr 8, 2008)

Bhagat singh

Rehat maryada does not say what you are saying here.It sounds you have no knowledge of rehat maryada.It does not say that do not befriend turks.

Globalsikhstuides is a store house of misinfornation about Dasam Granth.MMost of siksh know that.Its owner does not know anything about Dasam Granth.He ws involved in discussions and he withdrew whne caught on wrong foot.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 9, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Bhagat singh
> 
> Rehat maryada does not say what you are saying here.It sounds you have no knowledge of rehat maryada.It does not say that do not befriend turks.
> 
> Globalsikhstuides is a store house of misinfornation about Dasam Granth.MMost of siksh know that.Its owner does not know anything about Dasam Granth.He ws involved in discussions and he withdrew whne caught on wrong foot.


Oh yeah?
Read this:
Attitude Towards Muslims                           An initiated Khalsa who bows to a Turk is a despicable creature. He who associates with anyone who mixes with Turks goes to hell. Do not trust Turks. Do not make friends with a Muslim. End the authority of the Turks. A Turk is an enemy and should be slain with the sword. Do not consume _ halal _ meat. Pay no heed to a [Muslim] pir. Those who worship Muhammad will go to a horrible hell. Anyone who eats food prepared for a Muslim festival, who offer sweets to a Muslim holy man, or who brews intoxicating liquor goes to hell. Do not trust the illegitimate offspring of a Muslim. Do not desire to learn Persian. Anyone who reads Persian is a _ tanakhahia _ and not my Sikh. Do not drink water from his hand and do not trust him. [12, 29, 35, 42, 44, 57, 59, 77, 79, 83, 84, 87, 90, 91, 92] 

A Gateway to Sikhism | Daya Singh Rahit-nama - A Gateway to Sikhism
Anyone who reads persian is a tanakhahia, and not my sikh , haha :}{}{}:, good one!




Ok so assuming global Sikh studies is not a good source, tell me can u understand punjabi?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 9, 2008)

A lot of stuff in ALL the "Rehitnamahs" is BLATANTLY ANTI-MUSLIM and by default PRO-HINDU(Brahmin). This is a FACT.

2. The so called 40th VAAR spuriously and surreptioulsy ATTACHED to the Original 39 vaars of Bhai Gurdass Ji of Guru Arjun Jis time is blatantly anti-mulsim, anti islam and pro hindu. It gives such FALSE information that Guur Gobind Singh Jis Khalsa Attacked and DESTROYED MOSQUES, Forcibly STOPPED SUNNAT - (circumcision of muslims) Stopped the Muslim Prayers. Only a HINDU BIGOT could imagine such bizarre hallucinations about the Khalsa vis a vis the Islamic peoples. Guru jis is UNIVERSAL..He is for entire Humanity..Not for any ONE special Race or religion. Guru had THOUSANDS of MUSLIM friends, followers, murshds, and even MARTYRS who died for HIM and fought AGAINST the Muslims who were wrong/tyrants. While the Brahmin Ganggu decieved and betrayed the innocent children of Guru Ji. and the Diwan Sucha Nand DEMANDED DEATH for them.....the Muslim Nawab of Malerkotla defended them as Unislmic to kill defencelss children of the enemy !! 
This VAAR was so cleverly attached to the Original Bhai gurdass Ji Vaars that inspite of being patently OUT of Place and blatantly RACIST and agianst SIKHI/GURMATT of Bhai Ghnaiyah etc etc Sikhs were FOOLED by a few lines intermixed in it..such as Waho Waho gobind Singh aapeh Gur Chela..etc etc while 90% of it is anti-Gurmatt.
Same goes for Bachittar natak granth later changed to dsm granth. 99% of this is not as per Gurmatt of Guru Sahib.
Can somebody shed light on who wrote this VAAR and when was it attached to the Original Bhai gurdass Varaan ?? Why is it not in a SEPARATE "book" when its clear that it is NOT written by Bhai Gurdass Ji ?? Why conceal this fact ??

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Inder singh (Apr 9, 2008)

RTehatnama mentioned by Bhagat singh is not Sikh rehat maryada.Go to SGPC site to know rehat maryada.Please do not mislead people here if you do not about rehat maryada.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 9, 2008)

Here is another tactic very commonly used in dsm granth.... the "Authors" change at random...and we are asked to beleive that it is actually the same author..even if he uses the names shyam raam kavi..its still Guur Gobind Singh ji...In the follwoing lines the MISR..the Brahmin suddenly and unexplicably becomes the "SIKHS"..... out of NO where ??? the entire episode is about the Misr the Brahimin the Khatri etc etc and we are told its about SIKHS... This So called Shabad by Guru Gobind Singh ji is sung all the time by Kirtaniyas....

Do observe the context of the famous, "in he kee kirpa kae sajae hum hain..."
What do you think?


CHAPTER 10

ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
ੴ स्री वाहिगुरू जी की फतह ॥
The Lord is One and the Victory is of the Lord.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥
स्री मुखवाक पातिशाही १०॥
The ultterance from the holy mouth of the Tenth King :

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
स्वैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਜੋ ਕਛੁ ਲੇਖ ਲਿਖਿਓ ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸੋਈ ਪਾਈਯਤ ਮਿਸਰ ਜੂ ਸ਼ੋਕ ਨਿਵਾਰੋ ॥ਮੇਰੋ ਕਛੂ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਨਹੀ ਗਯੋ ਯਾਦ ਤੇ ਭੂਲ ਨਹ ਕੋਪੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੋ ॥
जो कछु लेख लिखिओ बिधना सोई पाईयत मिसर जू शोक निवारो ॥मेरो कछू अपराध नही गयो याद ते भूल नह कोपु चितारो ॥
O friend ! whatever the providence has recorded, it will surely happen, therefore, forsake your sorrow; there is no fault of mine in this; I had only forgotten (to serve you earlier); do not get enraged on my error;

*** This is has been translated as "O friend" when the text is addressing "Misr ju" for he had forgotten "to serve you earlier"? The author i .e patshahi dus on top . is aplogising for his mistake in forgetting to serve misrjii .i.e brahmin? It is not my fault, forgetful memory is the reason of this lapse..do not get annotyed i.e speak(chitaro) in outrage(kop/krop)..please give up your shok/sorrow


ਬਾਗੋ ਨਿਹਾਲੀ ਪਠੈ ਦੈਹੋ ਆਜੁ ਭਲੇ ਤੁਮ ਕੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਜੀਅ ਧਾਰੋ ॥ ਛੱਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਭੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿੱਪਨ ਕੇ ਇਨਹੂੰ ਪੈ ਕਟਾਛ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
बागो निहाली पठै दैहो आजु भले तुम को निसचै जीअ धारो ॥ छ्त्री सभै क्रित बि्पन के इनहूं पै कटाछ क्रिपा कै निहारो ॥१॥
I shall surely cause to send the quilt, bed etc. as religious gift; do not be anxious about that, the Kshatriyas had been performing the jobs for the Brahmins; now be kind to them, looking towards them.1.

***  Not only aplogising but also sending gifts for appeasment purposes? Why,... because the kshatriyas  "chattri sabahe krit bipran ke"...katascth i.e. eyes..please lay benevolent eyes upon them(your "krit" creation).. 

The  Guru-sahiban did not need to do this for they had given up brahmin guru - who are those who did not? Ist choice: mina gurus-establishments who remained kshatriya need to appease the brahmin. for having forgotten to serve them 'earlier' ..when?. 


Then the author goes on to say...

ਜੁੱਧ ਜਿਤੇ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਕਰੇ ॥ ਅਘ ਅਉਘ ਟਰੈ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਫੁਨ ਧਾਮ ਭਰੇ ॥
जु्ध जिते इन ही के प्रसादि इन ही के प्रसादि सु दान करे ॥ अघ अउघ टरै इन ही के प्रसादि इन ही क्रिपा फुन धाम भरे ॥
By the kindness of these Skihs, I have conquered the wars and also by their kindness, I have bestowed charities; by their kindness the clusters on sins have been destroyed and by their kindness my house is full of wealth and materials;

*** here the reference has been changed to 'sikhs'..when it is the brahmin that is being asked forgiveness from, with declaration that kshatriya was krit/manufactured/born to serve the misr ji, the though continues
Where do sikhs fit into this stuff here?. Yet we are sining away shkaing our heads, pretending it is an ode to sikhs.. . 

ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸੁ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਲਈ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਭ ਸ਼ੱਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਰੇ ॥ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੇ ਸਜੇ ਹਮ ਹੈਂ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਸੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਰੇ ॥੨॥
इन ही के प्रसादि सु बि्दिआ लई इन ही की क्रिपा सभ श्त्रु मरे ॥इन ही की क्रिपा के सजे हम हैं नही मोसो गरीब करोर परे ॥२॥
By their kindness I have received education and by their kindness all my enemies have been destroyed; by their kindness I have been greatly adorned, otherwise there kindness I have been greatly adorned, otherwise there are crores of humble person like me.2.

**** The samrty alecks will tell you enemies are the passions...here the referecne is to the enemies that the bipar-creator helped vanquish. Who would those be??


ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਭਾਵਤ ਅਉਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸੁਹਾਤ ਨ ਜੀਕੋ ॥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯੋ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਭਲੋ ਅਰੁ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਨ ਨ ਲਾਗਤ ਨੀਕੋ ॥
सेव करी इन ही की भावत अउर की सेव सुहात न जीको ॥ दान दयो इन ही को भलो अरु आन को दान न लागत नीको ॥
I like to serve them and my mind is not pleased to serve others; the charities bestowed on them are really good and the charities given to others do not appear to be nice;


ਆਗੈ ਫਲੈ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਦਯੋ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਜਸੁ ਅਉਰ ਦਯੋ ਸਭ ਫੀਕੋ ॥ ਮੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਮੈ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਤਨ ਤੇ ਸਿਰ ਲਉ ਧਨ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੋ ॥੩॥
आगै फलै इन ही को दयो जग मै जसु अउर दयो सभ फीको ॥ मो ग्रहि मै मन ते तन ते सिर लउ धन है सभ ही इन ही को ॥३॥
The charities bestowed on them will bear fruit in future and the charities given to others in the world are unsavoury in front of donation given to them; in my house, my mind, my body, my wealth and even my head everything belongs to them.3.

*** looks like this charity is the reason we stand arguing about this granth!

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਚਟਪਟਾਇ ਚਿਤ ਮੈ ਜਰਯੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਜਯੋਂ ਕ੍ਰੁੱਧਤ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਖੋਜ ਰੋਜ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ਲਗ ਦਯੋ ਮਿਸਰ ਜੂ ਰੋਇ ॥੪॥
चटपटाइ चित मै जरयो त्रिण जयों क्रु्धत होइ ॥ खोज रोज के हेत लग दयो मिसर जू रोइ ॥४॥
Just as the straws while burning in ire are flabbergasted, in the same way, the Brahmin got enraged in his mind and thinking about his means of sustenance, he wept.4.


"Just as the straws while burning in ire are flabbergasted":...is this an english translation - straws burning are flabberghasted???

chatpatai chit mai jario trin  - as anger took hold;;we know 'chhatpatai'.... squirming helplessly; chit mai - in the mind

???  squirmed with helplessness, as the burning anger arose to consume the 'trin'...that is how the brahmin was furious in his mind, thinking about his livlihood, that he wept. 


>>>> and we sing it tunes every day pretending this is an ode ot the sikhs. 

.........

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਪਦ ਉਚਰਿ ਕੈ ਪੁਨ ਕਹੁ ਸ਼ਕਤ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕੇ ਸਕਲ ਨਿਕਸਤ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਸੇਖ ॥੪੭॥
प्रिथम शकति पद उचरि कै पुन कहु शकत बिसेख ॥ नाम सैहथी के सकल निकसत जाहि असेख ॥४७॥
Uttering the word "Shakti" in the beginning and then speaking the word "Shakat", all the names of Saihathi are uttered.47.

This from the follwing shastar mala...which part is gurmatt? Theses are various mantras employed in saakat-worship rituals. . 

We do know the gurmatt views on sakatvaad,,and duality of siv-sakti. 


  Acknowledged With Thanks :From Mrs A Singh Canada.

Gyani Jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 9, 2008)

but seelctivley following the SRM is also wrong and should be condemned..right ??
The SRM specifically states that NO BOOK should be paraksh at PAR with SGGS....yet this is ignored at many places - including two Takhats where the dsm garnth is parkash at PAR with SGGS and sehaj paaths, akhand paatsh hukmnamas etc are taken from this book same as from SGGS.
Did any of the academicians etc condemn this  anti SRM practise at the dsm garnth seminar ?? Do any of the sampardiyas condemn it....?? this dual paraksh is also at chowk mehta ?? can anyone confirm ??
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## carolineislands (Apr 9, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> My name is Bhagat Singh


  I'm so sorry for my typo! :: I didn't mean to be disrespectful... I often confuse those two words when I am typing too fast.  Please accept my apology.



> ...that has nothing to do with Dasam Granth.


 speaking of amrit and khalsa... 





> amrit... It should be treated nothing more than an old tradition.


  So there *are* Khalsa who are not mainstream amritdhari Sikhs, and do not consider SRM as equal to SGGS, perhaps don't even consider SRM as the last word?

I did read most of SRM on the website and also read some articles describing the process of constructing the SRM.  I found that it happened VERY recently, like in the 1940s and that it took about 20 years to do it as the groups of authors changed so much.  I even read that a couple of them were excommunicated during the process.  As I was reading that I was thinking, "How could this document NOT contain at least some element of human error?"  Which explains how some things about it run contrary to the spirit of Guru Nanak's writings.



> I have no clue but I know kala Afghana would agree with me one this one. :whisling:
> I believed such things, before I knew of kala afghana so don't say i am following his cult or sumtin.


  Well, you'll not hear this accusation from me as I had thought these things before I ever even knew anything about the politics surrounding the issue.



> no, critisize it! See how people respond to you.


  Oh, I already have and DID see.  LOL  



> Those are blind rituals with no meaning.


  I'm really glad this isn't Islam or you'd have a fatwa on you for that.  



> At this point someone is gona get up and be like isnt keeping hair and combing hair a ritual as well.


  I combed my hair a couple of times a day before I ever knew there was such a thing as a Sikh.  I understand keeping hair -- for one thing it is a beautiful sign and a celebration of the beauty of being human.  I am still trimming my hair a little as it grows because I had a haircut style when I decided to let it grow and I am trimming that style out of the ends of it until it is even then I will leave it alone.  



> Yes it distubrs me very much to see these things happening. That's why I am not attracted to gurudwaras anymore. I used to love to go there. I can't help speaking out, and I can't keep my mouth shut, so I just don't go.


Okay, I'm going to be honest since you have shown such courage.  I have been thinking a long time about organized religion and how it is almost universal that the message of a prophet or teacher ends up boxed up and constrained by the intellectual and spiritual limitations of the human mind.  And I have thought a lot about the difference between a follower of Jesus Christ and a "Christian" and the difference between the message and the organized religion of almost all the wise teachers that God has sent to mankind throughout our history.  I too am seeing that there could be quite a difference between Sikhi and SikhISM.  And I think you might be shooting right at the heart of those differences in this discussion.  There are a lot of people who break away from organized religion and go straight to the heart of the message -- like Guru Nanak.  And that's one thing that I truly love about him.  I often ask myself about various teachers and leaders and wise messengers of God and wonder what they would think if they were to come back and see the religions that have sprung up out of human perceptions of their message.  Ever wondered about that?



> Define gurbani.


  Me?  Well, okay I'll give it a shot.  The words  and message of the Guru? 



> One should always question their beliefs, so they always remain open minded. Otherwise it becomes blind faith, which Guru Nanak preached against.


  That's what I was thinking.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 9, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> RTehatnama mentioned by Bhagat singh is not Sikh rehat maryada.Go to SGPC site to know rehat maryada.Please do not mislead people here if you do not about rehat maryada.


Where does the rehit maryada come from?


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 9, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> but seelctivley following the SRM is also wrong and should be condemned..right ??
> The SRM specifically states that NO BOOK should be paraksh at PAR with SGGS....yet this is ignored at many places - including two Takhats where the dsm garnth is parkash at PAR with SGGS and sehaj paaths, akhand paatsh hukmnamas etc are taken from this book same as from SGGS.
> Did any of the academicians etc condemn this  anti SRM practise at the dsm garnth seminar ?? Do any of the sampardiyas condemn it....?? this dual paraksh is also at chowk mehta ?? can anyone confirm ??
> Gyani jarnail Singh


You hit the spot Jarnail Singh Ji.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 10, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I'm so sorry for my typo! :: I didn't mean to be disrespectful... I often confuse those two words when I am typing too fast.  Please accept my apology.


   Apology accepted. 


carolineislands said:


> speaking of amrit and khalsa...   So there *are* Khalsa who are not mainstream amritdhari Sikhs, and do not consider SRM as equal to SGGS, perhaps don't even consider SRM as the last word?


I am not even sure where the term Khalsa comes from anymore... someone help me out here. What defines a khalsa and what defines a sikh? I am not even sure anymore.
SRM in no way, is equal to SGGS, nothing is! No scripture in the world is equal to SGGS, at the moment. 
In my opinion, SRM was written to take the hindu influences out of Sikhism.



carolineislands said:


> I did read most of SRM on the website and also read some articles describing the process of constructing the SRM.  I found that it happened VERY recently, like in the 1940s and that it took about 20 years to do it as the groups of authors changed so much.  I even read that a couple of them were excommunicated during the process.  As I was reading that I was thinking, "How could this document NOT contain at least some element of human error?"  Which explains how some things about it run contrary to the spirit of Guru Nanak's writings.


Well, it does. Why didn't Guru Gobind Singh write the SRM? Why did Guru Gobind Singh start the Khalsa in the first place? Was SGGS not enough? What was the point of the sweetened water? (my theory was that it was to attract attention) Why the need of just 5 heads, why not 7, 10? 11? 12? 100? 2? 1?
Why didn't he compile Dasam Granth? People say he chose to "leave his body", then if he really had a choice, then he could have easily compiled Dasam Granth.
When did Sarbloh Granth come in to the picture? Guru Gobind Singh was only 42 when he died. Did he have time to write all these granths? 
Assuming he wrote all those. WHy did he only put ONE passage in SGGS? Was his writings not worthy? At this point, someone will be like, he didn't consider himself a Guru and therefore, did not want his writings to be included in SGGS. What?? 
Guru Gobind SIngh was an intelectual man, agreed?  Would an intellectual man think like that? Would a logical thinker let his feelings get in the way of his purpose/goal. 
Anyway, why did he bow down to only SGGS? 
[SIZE=-1]I have too many questions. Unfortunately, they cannot be answered to my satisfaction.
[/SIZE]


carolineislands said:


> Oh, I already have and DID see.  LOL


What were your observations?


carolineislands said:


> I'm really glad this isn't Islam or you'd have a fatwa on you for that.


No? Whats excommunication then? 


carolineislands said:


> I combed my hair a couple of times a day before I ever knew there was such a thing as a Sikh.  I understand keeping hair -- *for one thing it is a beautiful sign and a celebration of the beauty of being human.*


Well said.





carolineislands said:


> I am still trimming my hair a little as it grows because I had a haircut style when I decided to let it grow and I am trimming that style out of the ends of it until it is even then I will leave it alone.


why trim it? Until its even? I didnt understand that part.


carolineislands said:


> Okay, I'm going to be honest since you have shown such courage.  I have been thinking a long time about organized religion and how it is almost universal that the message of a prophet or teacher ends up boxed up and constrained by the intellectual and spiritual limitations of the human mind.  And I have thought a lot about the difference between a follower of Jesus Christ and a "Christian" and the difference between the message and the organized religion of almost all the wise teachers that God has sent to mankind throughout our history.  I too am seeing that there could be quite a difference between Sikhi and SikhISM.  And I think you might be shooting right at the heart of those differences in this discussion.  There are a lot of people who break away from organized religion and go straight to the heart of the message -- like Guru Nanak.  And that's one thing that I truly love about him.  I often ask myself about various teachers and leaders and wise messengers of God and wonder what they would think if they were to come back and see the religions that have sprung up out of human perceptions of their message.  Ever wondered about that?


 oh yes! Many times! 
And I often wonder what Muhammad would think of the present state of Islam... :shifty:


carolineislands said:


> Me?  Well, okay I'll give it a shot.  The words  and message of the Guru?


That's what most people use to call Dasam Granth, gurbani.


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

jarnail singh ji 

The is a complete distortion of the verses of kahals mehma by some *******ed writer to suit her own taste.I am amazed that you are aGian and have no knowledge of Dasam Granth and also siv shakti that is used many times in SGGS ji.This is called distortion for propaganda sake.

I think your group is well knit and the same writing is circualted among you gyus.Most of this is a lie and hence is propagnda.Read below:

The couplets quoted by the poster are from Khalsa mehma.There is an episode that occurred before khalsa initiation.

Guru ji had arranged a langar and people were called from far and wide.As sangat arrived they took langar.When Brahmins came to know that langar is being served and they have not been invited first ,they refused to take langar.

Some how sikhs called in their leader kesho das.He also refused to take langar as he thought the langar had become defiled by low caste people.Guru ji is advising Him( Mishar is brahmin) that Guru ji does not consider right to give charity to brahmins anymore as times have changed.

He is advising Brahmins by apprecitating his sikhs that they have stood by him through thick and thin.He tells him that his sikhs are better brahmins than him and being armed they are also khatris.
Stanza two and three relate to that.

Seeing his livelihood being gone' kesho ram Pandit left the place.This has been explained in detail in translation of Dasam granth by Giani narain singh ji.

<<<<Uttering the word "Shakti" in the beginning and then speaking the word "Shakat", all the names of Saihathi are uttered.47.

This from the follwing shastar mala...which part is gurmatt? Theses are various mantras employed in saakat-worship rituals. . 

We do know the gurmatt views on sakatvaad,,and duality of siv-sakti. >>>>>

Response

The line in question is given below.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਪਦ ਉਚਰਿ ਕੈ ਪੁਨ ਕਹੁ ਸ਼ਕਤ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕੇ ਸਕਲ ਨਿਕਸਤ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਸੇਖ ॥੪੭॥
प्रिथम शकति पद उचरि कै पुन कहु शकत बिसेख ॥ नाम सैहथी के सकल निकसत जाहि असेख ॥४७॥
Uttering the word "Shakti" in the beginning and then speaking the word "Shakat", all the names of Saihathi are uttered.47

Shashtra naam mala includes the description of the various weapons usedin warfare. Details ofweapons merge into the worship of the timeless lord.

There is neither any siv shakti nor any shakat mat being mentioned here.saihathi is a spear still carried by Nihungs.

By the way siv shakti comes many times in SGGS where shakti means energy and siv means akal purakh.Siv shakti means power of akal purakh.(This does not relate to shakti of Hindu deity.Moreover shakat mat does not believe in Shiva.They believe in Devi as absolute entity.)

jah daykhaa tah rav rahay siv saktee kaa mayl.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

Ang 21 ,SGGS

Inder Singh


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

Rehat maryada comes from various traditions ,central messages of rehtanamas and gurmat principles that were transferred from generation to generations.


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

<<<<The SRM specifically states that NO BOOK should be paraksh at PAR with SGGS....yet this is ignored at many places - including two Takhats where the dsm garnth is parkash at PAR with SGGS and sehaj paaths, akhand paatsh hukmnamas etc are taken from this book same as from SGGS.
Did any of the academicians etc condemn this anti SRM practise at the dsm garnth seminar ?? Do any of the sampardiyas condemn it....?? this dual paraksh is also at chowk mehta>>>

Response

There is more happening on that front just because some preverts have maligned dasam Granth so badly and believers are giving back.

Do not mistake me ,Dasam Granth was in prakash during khalsa rule also along SGGS and in prakash at akal takhat till 1942.

I believe in supermacy of SGGS ji as our Guru ,but heavens are not going to fall if there is prakash of Dasam granth at birth and death place of sahib Guru Gobind singh ji.


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

<<<<Why didn't he compile Dasam Granth? People say he chose to "leave his body", then if he really had a choice, then he could have easily compiled Dasam Granth.>>>

Response
there are two birs of Dasam Granth that are of Guru ji's time.

Anadpuri amd patna  bir.We have manuscripts with bus.

<<<<When did Sarbloh Granth come in to the picture? Guru Gobind Singh was only 42 when he died. Did he have time to write all these granths? >>>

It took him almost two decades to write this Granth.Dates are there in Dasam granth itself.

<<<Assuming he wrote all those. WHy did he only put ONE passage in SGGS? Was his writings not worthy? At this point, someone will be like, he didn't consider himself a Guru and therefore, did not want his writings to be included in SGGS. What?? >>

Gur Granth is universal dealing with spirituality whereas Dasam Granth deals with sargun saroop.There is a difference thgere.

<<<<Guru Gobind SIngh was an intelectual man, agreed? Would an intellectual man think like that? Would a logical thinker let his feelings get in the way of his purpose/goal. 
Anyway, why did he bow down to only SGGS? 
[SIZE=-1]I have too many questions. Unfortunately, they cannot be answered to my satisfaction.>>>

Response

One deals with Nirgun saroop and other with organizational aspects of khalsa or when tyranny manifests it tells us reply back.

What are your questions.First read dasam Granth and then put questions as you will understand better.
[/SIZE]


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## carolineislands (Apr 10, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> WHy did he (Guru Gobind Singh ji) only put ONE passage in SGGS?


  I would assume because that is what he deemed necessary.  



> [SIZE=-1]I have too many questions. Unfortunately, they cannot be answered to my satisfaction.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]  Yeah, me too.  I just ask the questions, gather up the answers and let my heart fill in the blanks.
[/SIZE]


> What were your observations? re: reactions to my questioning the veracity of the SRM


I felt like I just showed up at a Taliban picnic with a bottle of wine and a plate of pork chops.OMG 

"Oops."



> Whats excommunication then?


  In MY opinion?  Foolishness.  Drawing imaginary circles around us and our friends.  Two little kids in a tree house shouting down to their buddy, "YOU can't come up here anymore because you broke the club rules!!"  Seriously, what difference does it make?  Does being excommunicated mean you can't do simran, or read SGGS?  Does it mean you can't chant Waheguru? Do the shop owners stop selling you dastar cloth? No?  Then who cares... 



> Trim?? Until its even? I didnt understand that part.


  You know how haircut styles are short in some places and long in others?  When you just let one of those grow out you end up looking like someone chopped a hunk out of your hair or something.  I'm just letting all the hair get close to the same length.  It also has ends that were dyed and if your hair is damaged really bad like that it can just keep splitting higher and higher and your hair won't really grow until you get those ends off and stop the splitting -- kind of like a piece of wood that's been split and will just keep going like that.



> And I often wonder what Muhammad would think of the present state of Islam... :shifty:


Yeeks!  He'd probably look at the Hadith and be like, "What in the *** is THIS?"  "I did WHAT?"  "He said WHAT?"  "Who the heck is SHE?"




> That's what most people use to call Dasam Granth, gurbani.


 So the only thing that ALL Sikhs believe to be gurbani is SGGS?  That's the only writing that's accepted by everyone then...   It seems like it would keep things simpler to just agree on SGGS and move on from there.  Focusing on the differences is just going to repeat history over and over and over again.

JMHO


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

<<<<So the only thing that ALL Sikhs believe to be gurbani is SGGS? That's the only writing that's accepted by everyone then... It seems like it would keep things simpler to just agree on SGGS and move on from there. Focusing on the differences is just going to repeat history over and over and over again>>

There is not difference.Differences have been created by certain vested interests who know nothing about Dasam Granth.Ignorance is bliss.


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

So the only thing that ALL Sikhs believe to be gurbani is SGGS? That's the only writing that's accepted by everyone then... It seems like it would keep things simpler to just agree on SGGS and move on from there. Focusing on the differences is just going to repeat history over and over and over again


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 10, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> <<<<Why didn't he compile Dasam Granth? People say he chose to "leave his body", then if he really had a choice, then he could have easily compiled Dasam Granth.>>>
> 
> Response
> there are two birs of Dasam Granth that are of Guru ji's time.
> ...


Now with some evidence please.
Any I asked you if you can understand Punjabi. can you? 
If you can then please comment on this video.
So called Dasam Granth or {censored} Kavita
Dont let the name fool you... :whisling:


Lol 2 decades to write jsut sarbloh granth, I wonder how long it took for him to write Dasam granth.... hmm...


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## Inder singh (Apr 10, 2008)

Bhagat singh

You need to understand the difference between sarbloh and dasam granth. I am talking about Dasam granth.a fool will not understand what i am talking because he has not read anything.

They are miscreants who call this bani as {censored} kavita.Are you not aware of hukamnama of akal takhat.Shame on you for putting such derogatory worded videos here.


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## Inder singh (Apr 11, 2008)

See the vieo of kala afghana arguing on dasam granth.

Sants Vs Afgana Part 1 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji) - AOL Video
Sants Vs Afgana Part 2 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji) - AOL Video


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 11, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> jarnail singh ji
> 
> 
> I think your group is well knit and the same writing is circualted among you gyus.Most of this is a lie and hence is propaganda.Read below:
> ...


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 11, 2008)

*A question about Dasam Granth..* *Email/Recommend this Topic to your Friends* 			 			 		 		               Our 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh ji who sacrificed his father, the 9th Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur Ji, his 4 sons, added his father's Gurbani in SGGS, did not add any of his thoughts about IK ONG KAAR in SGGS although we know he was a prolific polyglot poet and writer, Would HE compile HIS own GRANTH and name it DASAM GRANTH?

Lets ponder over it a bit.

Peace & Love

Tejwant

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/96-dasam-granth-ji-its-history-daljeet.html


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## Inder singh (Apr 11, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Inder singh said:
> 
> 
> > jarnail singh ji
> ...


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## Inder singh (Apr 11, 2008)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> *A question about Dasam Granth..* *Email/Recommend this Topic to your Friends*                                                           Our 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh ji who sacrificed his father, the 9th Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur Ji, his 4 sons, added his father's Gurbani in SGGS, did not add any of his thoughts about IK ONG KAAR in SGGS although we know he was a prolific polyglot poet and writer, Would HE compile HIS own GRANTH and name it DASAM GRANTH?
> 
> Lets ponder over it a bit.
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji

That is known to Guru ji.He is entitled to this.He was Guru of sikhs.We are nobody to question his decision.

But people like Daljeet singh had no practical life.They never lived sikhi to experience the bliss.They were theory masters.

I have read dasam Granth and can say that there is nothing anti Gurmat in that.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 12, 2008)

Inder Singh ji wrote:
S Jarnail singh ji

The court case is there on the net and on yahho group.Why you say it is not there?

It is a fact and there is registry no available.If interested i can quote the case here and you can check with a law member in Canada.>>>>>>>>>>>

Inder singh Ji,
Gurfateh.
I am not interested in the law case or the registry or to check up anything...life is too short as it si to study/vichaar on gurbani of SGGS- I have been reading and vichaaring sggs continously for the past 50 years of my life..every day Maera SATGUR nit NAVAAN..where got time to go looking up law cases and law registeries etc. I leave that type of frivolous work to those interested in that. I stick tenaciously to GURBANI of SGGS and whosoever quotes Gurbani vichars on this is good enough for me to read.
BTW i noticed that your mails on Yahoogroups are being "edited/deleted?" due to too much personal and not enough Gurbani /historicla Vichar. Lets NOT bring that here as well - this is a very well run moderate Forum where nearly everyoen wants genuine learning of Gurbani and Gurmatt. Nothing personal and no offense.
Warm regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Inder singh (Apr 12, 2008)

Giani ji

You have digressed now.You left the topic of kala afghana and Dasam Granth.

My mails are being censoered and not even posted because of following

1) That egroup is intolerant to exposure of tyranny on sikhs in India in 1980s and 1990s.
2) They name call Bhindrewale and justify Blue star operation.

3) They do not tolerate criticism of India as they thinl sikhs brought it own themselves.

4) They revere kala afghana and his lies about sikhism.

5)They quote from Dasam Granth distorted meanings showing they have no knowledge of Dasam Granth.

6) The moderator does not know much about sikhis and concepts of Guru Granth and guru panth.When corrected censor those portions of emails thinking as insult to him in public.

Now comimng to the real topic

1) You know kala fghana is a convicted sex offender.Why are stating here otherwise?A sikh does not support a wrong man.

2) Have you raed Dasam Granth?


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## mkm (Apr 13, 2008)

Hello all There

I am amazed, how a supporter of Dasam Granth ( Gursikh!)can say MOD dont know much about sikhi? Is it the right way to debate any thing. I  thought here a new one like me can learn a lot ...but...


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## Inder singh (Apr 13, 2008)

Mkm writes me as  a supporter of Dasam Granth.He should know that every sikh is a supporter of Dasam Granth.sikh rehat merayda supports dasam granth.So i am not alone.

I wrote that moderator does not have much knowledge of concept of Guru granth and Guru panth.How do you know that moderator knows?


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## spnadmin (Apr 13, 2008)

mkm said:


> Hello all There
> 
> I am amazed, how a supporter of Dasam Granth ( Gursikh!)can say MOD dont know much about sikhi? Is it the right way to debate any thing. I  thought here a new one like me can learn a lot ...but...



Be patient. Wait and see. Everyone has his/her own approach to debating issues. You will learn and you will also teach us. You already did.

*mod*


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## carolineislands (Apr 13, 2008)

Hi mkm!  I'm kind of new here too and I too, was a little shocked at first because I love Sikhi so much I had sort of glorified Sikhs in my mind.  Then I had to shake myself and remember that we're all human and this is an internet forum.  On the whole, I think you'll find this the most respectful, forgiving, understanding internet forum anywhere.  People have debates and personalities come out but in the end they always support each other and try to understand even the deepest differences.  

Thanks for your input!


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 14, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> That is known to Guru ji.He is entitled to this.He was Guru of sikhs.We are nobody to question his decision.
> 
> ...



 Inder Singh ji,

  I beg to differ with you. Sikhi is based on questioning.  One can only be a Sikh-seeker, if one is inquisitive and introspective. Gurbani shows us how are Gurus taught us how to question. Not questioning is the result of hindutva hierarchal system. Sikhi has none of that. If  it were true then  Sri Chand would have been our 2nd Guru and Prithivi Chand our 5th.When Guru Gobind Singh took Khandei de Pahul from Panch Piyaras he showed us the same. Vaho Vaho Gobind Singh aapei Guru Chela. So questioning hence contemplating on why our 10th Guru did not add any of his poetry  as Gurbani in SGGS is vital for us to understand Sikhi.

  Not to get away from the subject we also know Bhai Gurdaas ji’s vaarans were not added either. This discussion has already taken place in this forum and can be searched.

  I am no one to judge anyone. I do not know Daljeet Singh. One thing I know what Gurbani teaches us. Hum Nahin changei, bura nahin koi- I am no good but no one is bad either.

  Can you elaborate what you mean by that you have read the Dasam Granth  and?

  Thanks.


  Tejwant


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## Inder singh (Apr 14, 2008)

<<<Can you elaborate what you mean by that you have read the Dasam Granth  and?>>>
Tejwant singh

banis of Dasam Granth form part of our nitnem and we are initiated with these banis.Our ardas begining is from Dasam granth.

Once we read Dasam Granth we find nothing anti gurmat in that.That is why the question.In my opinion we should read Dasam granth to know the reality.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 14, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> <<<Can you elaborate what you mean by that you have read the Dasam Granth  and?>>>
> Tejwant singh
> 
> banis of Dasam Granth form part of our nitnem and we are initiated with these banis.Our ardas begining is from Dasam granth.
> ...


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## Inder singh (Apr 15, 2008)

<<<<<Your response still does not answer the original question of questioning that you objected to. Why would he name a book Dasam Granth?

Did Guru Gobind Singh ji ask us to do Ardaas the way we do and did he add his poetry/bani to our Nitnem? If he did, Can you pls give us some references about it?>>>>

This was named as Bachoitra natak.Then it was Dasam Granth.Name has no bearing on the internal compositions that reamained same.SGGS was pothi sahib,aad granth and then Sri guru Granth sahib.

Ist pauri of ardas was written by Guru ji and forms part of Chandi di Vaar.Ardas was there in Guru ji's time.Some persons have tablets of Ardas of that period.


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## mkm (Apr 15, 2008)

Mkm writes me as a supporter of Dasam Granth
If I hurt your feelings I am sorry, what I mean was that all Sikhs do not believe that Dasam Guru ji wrote Dasm Granth all. So far, sikhs who say it  is all written by Guru ji, have failed to refute the points some Sikhs debated.

.He should know that every sikh is a supporter of Dasam Granth.sikh rehat merayda supports dasam granth.So i am not alone.
That is not happening in this thread. By simply saying, debate questions are not answered. Now a days a lot of maryada is not practicedby the Sikhs though Sikhs boast about it.

I wrote that moderator does not have much knowledge of concept of Guru granth and Guru panth.How do you know that moderator knows?
I am new, I dont know but how can you judge people so badly? Seems you are the only Sikh who understands all about Guru panth. In another post you called some one fool who happened to disagree with you, how can you openly insult others who are in disgreement with you? Sikh should have more tolerance than any one as per Gurbani teachings that is what I have learnt. When MOD delete your insulting comments, you play cry baby:8-


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## Inder singh (Apr 15, 2008)

<<<am new, I dont know but how can you judge people so badly? Seems you are the only Sikh who understands all about Guru panth. In another post you called some one fool who happened to disagree with you, how can you openly insult others who are in disgreement with you? Sikh should have more tolerance than any one as per Gurbani teachings that is what I have learnt. When MOD delete your insulting comments, you play cry baby
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





>>>>

have you got something other to say than to launch personal attack.I believe you should contribute in light of your knowledge on the subject under discussion.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 15, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Giani ji
> 
> You have digressed now.You left the topic of kala afghana and Dasam Granth.
> 
> ...


 
dear inder singh,

IMHO...the MODS are being very fair - they are asking ofr COMPLETE QUOTES ( not just one liners out of context), they are asking for specific proofs, Original writings, dates etc. Provide all that and your mails will get full exposure as was before - i feel they have tolerated as far as they can. anyway I am NOT a MOD and thus bystander.(ordinary reader just like you) this is my own opinion.
2. Sardar Gurbaksh Singh JI is NOT the subject of discussion. His WRITINGS are. I am not alone in asking that ONLY his writings be discussed - whats wrong in what he said ?? Prove that by quoting him and then GURBANI from SGGS. (Have YOU read all the ten books he wrote ??)

3.Yes I have a copy of dsm granth and have read "IT" from cover to cover. Please see Video avilable on SinghSabhaInternational Canada website where the Dsm Granth is SHOWN and discussed. Guru Gobind Singh NEVER wrote those parts...no way. anyway dsm garnth is available online together with English translation so anyone could read it - not thta difficult anymore with the Internet and one can decide for onesself.

Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 15, 2008)

mkm said:


> Mkm writes me as a supporter of Dasam Granth
> If I hurt your feelings I am sorry, what I mean was that all Sikhs do not believe that Dasam Guru ji wrote Dasm Granth all. So far, sikhs who say it is all written by Guru ji, have failed to refute the points some Sikhs debated.
> 
> .He should know that every sikh is a supporter of Dasam Granth.sikh rehat merayda supports dasam granth.So i am not alone.
> ...


 
Beautifully said MKM ji. You are a beautiful SIKH of my Beautiful GURU JI.
Sikhs are beautiful inside and outside...thye are tolerant, considerate..loving, forgiving...MITTH BOLRRA JI Har Saajn *suami mora*...says Guru Arjun Ji sahib..but just look at how many sikhs insult and berate other fellow sikhs just because of a few disagreements ?? Sitting on the Hot Plate Guru Ji says..Tera Bhanna meetha lageh and more IMPORTANTLY..DOSH NAAH KHAOON DEVOHN..I DONT BLAME ANYONE !!!! we should be more like our GURU...
Just one incident from history..Sajjan Thugh was ahorrible MURDERER and ROBBER..he had made a MOSQUE and a MANDIR on his property..wore shining holy clothes and robbed and murdered both Hindus and Muslims who fell into his trap of taking shelter in his dharamsala..GURU NANAK JI just said one shabd...OOJAL KEHA CHILKKANNA....and after that NOT A SINGLE PERSON ever repeated a single word baout the ROBBER, the MURDERER, the EVIL..sajjan THUGGH..his EVIL PAST was wiped OFF in one instant..BUT look at us we keep on DREDGING UP other Sikh's PAST, convicted this and convicted that..blah blah blah..even DISTORT their Names SINGH and drop the Guru Given TITLE of SINGH etc etc. I may be wrong, i amy be alone..BUT SORRY i WONT do that to a fellow Human being..let alone a SINGH of my GURU.
Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Inder singh (Apr 16, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> dear inder singh,
> 
> IMHO...the MODS are being very fair - they are asking ofr COMPLETE QUOTES ( not just one liners out of context), they are asking for specific proofs, Original writings, dates etc. Provide all that and your mails will get full exposure as was before - i feel they have tolerated as far as they can. anyway I am NOT a MOD and thus bystander.(ordinary reader just like you) this is my own opinion.
> 2. Sardar Gurbaksh Singh JI is NOT the subject of discussion. His WRITINGS are. I am not alone in asking that ONLY his writings be discussed - whats wrong in what he said ?? Prove that by quoting him and then GURBANI from SGGS. (Have YOU read all the ten books he wrote ??)
> ...



Giani jarnail singh ji

Will you please clarify what Mods you are talking about.There is one site whose mod say that it is not essential for a sikh to have identity.They also say that sikhs asked for the injustices of 1980s and 1990s.A psot contradicting that will either be censored or dosallowed.Do you believe in that.

Are you saying that quotes i gave from kala afghana's books are not there in his books?

Giani ji most important of all in sikhism personal character is of paramount importance.Our Gurus say that live sikhi and do not just praech it.In view of that how a sikh  can become a thief and sex offender?

Can you quote those parts that you say have not been written by tenth master.People need to have understanding of myths,symbolism a,d metaphors before interpreting Dasam Granth.Does kala afghana has that knowledge?

Singhsabha site is a cptive site of propagandists.Its chief says that yhe  has keshas not because he is a sikh.He has those because it is cultural thing.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 16, 2008)

Inder Singh Ji, Gurfateh.

You have already prejudged people - such as KA doesnt have "knowledge":...and SSI is a "captive site of propogandists" ( whatever THAT means ??)
As such there is not much we can discuss - because i will quote from KA's books and you will say ..KA doesnt have knowledge... I will cite the SSI essays kathas..and you will say those people are captive/propoganda etc.....
SO lets agree to DISAGREE. You can go on beleiving that Bachittar Natak ( now called dsm granth) is 100% guru Kirt..I can go on beleiving that ONLY 1% of that is Guru Kirt and 99% is extraneous stuff not written by Guru Ji. Churning WATER doesnt make LASSEE or GHEE...the TRUE SAINTS eat the "GHEE/MAKHANNEE" and the rest drink the lassee... I am NOT a "saint" BUT I have tasted the Makhnnee and its in the TRUE GURU - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee ONLY.I have NO TIME/INCLINATION to go anywhere else simply becasue the SGGS Makhnnee is the Best and out of this world..Jion Gunggeh mithayee Khayyee is Guru Ji describes this sensation....


Warmest Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Inder singh (Apr 16, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Inder Singh Ji, Gurfateh.
> 
> You have already prejudged people - such as KA doesnt have "knowledge":...and SSI is a "captive site of propogandists" ( whatever THAT means ??)
> As such there is not much we can discuss - because i will quote from KA's books and you will say ..KA doesnt have knowledge... I will cite the SSI essays kathas..and you will say those people are captive/propoganda etc.....
> ...



Giani ji

i have not prejudged anybody.I have read SSI Hardev shergill's writing in his bulletin and posted it on one site also.

Giani ji please put the writing here what you don't consider Guru kirat from Dasam Granth.Let us see how it is not.Guru Panth has accepted Dasam Granth as Guru kirat.Who are others not to  believe in that.

Propaganda against it is not going to help.Now sikhs will clarify and expose those who have been writing derogatory about Dasam Granth


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 16, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> <<<<<Your response still does not answer the original question of questioning that you objected to. Why would he name a book Dasam Granth?
> 
> Did Guru Gobind Singh ji ask us to do Ardaas the way we do and did he add his poetry/bani to our Nitnem? If he did, Can you pls give us some references about it?>>>>
> 
> ...



Inder Singh ji,

I asked you to give me the references of your claims which you have not been able to give. Regarding the contents of Dasam Granth whether they are written by Guru Gobind Singh ji or not has been discussed in all Sikh forums including this one in great details You will be able to find all the threads in the search section about this. In fact I re- posted my response based on the thread discussed earlier in this forum.

But my question is more about Sikhi concept that you objected too initially in my earlier post about questioning and have not gotten the response from you yet. Please explain your claim that in Sikhi we are not allowed to question as you mentioned in the response.

Inder Singh ji, let's discuss and interact so all of us can learn from each other. After all that is why we call ourselves Sikhs. Mud slinging or prejudging others rather than debating is not a Sikhi way. Don't you agree?

Hoping to  learn a lot from you.

Tejwant


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## Inder singh (Apr 16, 2008)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> I asked you to give me the references of your claims which you have not been able to give. Regarding the contents of Dasam Granth whether they are written by Guru Gobind Singh ji or not has been discussed in all Sikh forums including this one in great details You will be able to find all the threads in the search section about this. In fact I re- posted my response based on the thread discussed earlier in this forum.
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji

Can you be specific about what erefrence you want? Bachitra natak granth is written in the Dasam Granth itself.

A sikh is a learner of Guru.He does not doubt the philosophy of Gurus writings.There is internal evidence in Dasam Granth that it is written by tenth master.

Then there are two manuscripts of 17th century and copies are avaialable with a friend of mine in USA.

Inder s


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## mkm (Apr 16, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Beautifully said MKM ji. You are a beautiful SIKH of my Beautiful GURU JI.
> Sikhs are beautiful inside and outside...thye are tolerant, considerate..loving, forgiving...MITTH BOLRRA JI Har Saajn *suami mora*...says Guru Arjun Ji sahib..but just look at how many sikhs insult and berate other fellow sikhs just because of a few disagreements ?? Sitting on the Hot Plate Guru Ji says..Tera Bhanna meetha lageh and more IMPORTANTLY..DOSH NAAH KHAOON DEVOHN..I DONT BLAME ANYONE !!!! we should be more like our GURU...
> Just one incident from history..Sajjan Thugh was ahorrible MURDERER and ROBBER..he had made a MOSQUE and a MANDIR on his property..wore shining holy clothes and robbed and murdered both Hindus and Muslims who fell into his trap of taking shelter in his dharamsala..GURU NANAK JI just said one shabd...OOJAL KEHA CHILKKANNA....and after that NOT A SINGLE PERSON ever repeated a single word baout the ROBBER, the MURDERER, the EVIL..sajjan THUGGH..his EVIL PAST was wiped OFF in one instant..BUT look at us we keep on DREDGING UP other Sikh's PAST, convicted this and convicted that..blah blah blah..even DISTORT their Names SINGH and drop the Guru Given TITLE of SINGH etc etc. I may be wrong, i amy be alone..BUT SORRY i WONT do that to a fellow Human being..let alone a SINGH of my GURU.
> Regards
> Gyani jarnail Singh



I appreciate your compliment, I may not deserve that.

Story you have quoted is very nice to learn some thing if one slips away. Thanks !!!!!!!


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2008)

mkm said:


> I appreciate your compliment, I may not deserve that.
> 
> Story you have quoted is very nice to learn some thing if one slips away. Thanks !!!!!!!



You know what? mkm ji  and Gyani ji -- You are teaching me to reflect on my own lack of patience and forgiveness. I have a spiritual debt to both of you.  It has been building up over the past several days.


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## mkm (Apr 16, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Hi mkm!  I'm kind of new here too and I too, was a little shocked at first because I love Sikhi so much I had sort of glorified Sikhs in my mind.  Then I had to shake myself and remember that we're all human and this is an internet forum.  On the whole, I think you'll find this the most respectful, forgiving, understanding internet forum anywhere.  People have debates and personalities come out but in the end they always support each other and try to understand even the deepest differences.
> 
> Thanks for your input!



Your support is appreciable.  I agree too
Thanks


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## mkm (Apr 16, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> You know what? mkm ji  and Gyani ji -- You are teaching me to reflect on my own lack of patience and forgiveness. I have a spiritual debt to both of you.  It has been building up over the past several days.



How can we  filled with limitations can teach ,it is the feeling you have expressed  will surely take you to higher state of mind.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 17, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Bhagat singh
> 
> You need to understand the difference between sarbloh and dasam granth. I am talking about Dasam granth.a fool will not understand what i am talking because he has not read anything.
> 
> They are miscreants who call this bani as {censored} kavita.Are you not aware of hukamnama of akal takhat.Shame on you for putting such derogatory worded videos here.


Did you watch the video? If not? Ignore the name of the video, watch it and analyze its contents not the name!  Shame on you for not  doing that!
If you did watch it, which I doubt you did, then analyze it. You can start by answering... What point is the guy trying to make? Why is he saying that? Why has he named the video as such? Is he right? Are his translations correct? If yes? Then do you still believe that Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind SIngh? Why? Why not? ... etc.
Here's the link once again:So called Dasam Granth or {censored} Kavita  

So it took 2 decades for Guru Gobind to write Dasam Granth?
How many decades to write Sarbloh granth?


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## Inder singh (Apr 17, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Did you watch the video? If not? Ignore the name of the video, watch it and analyze its contents not the name! Shame on you for not doing that!
> If you did watch it, which I doubt you did, then analyze it. You can start by answering... What point is the guy trying to make? Why is he saying that? Why has he named the video as such? Is he right? Are his translations correct? If yes? Then do you still believe that Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind SIngh? Why? Why not? ... etc.
> Here's the link once again:So called Dasam Granth or {censored} Kavita
> 
> ...


 
I have wayched the video.It is worst form of propaganda.*** on you for relying on second hand sources of biased persons and having no point to forward yourself.



I reuest the administrators that such uncivilized language should be purged as it relates to bani.


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

* I reuest the administrators that such uncivilized language should be purged as it relates to bani.
Speaking as a moderator/not a participant. *See post 74.

The term you object to is in the title of the video. It is not against forum rules to report the title of something like a video clip. 



BhagatSingh said:


> Did you watch the video? If not? Ignore the name of the video, watch it and analyze its contents not the name!  Shame on you for not  doing that!
> If you did watch it, which I doubt you did, then analyze it. You can start by answering... What point is the guy trying to make? Why is he saying that? Why has he named the video as such? Is he right? Are his translations correct? If yes? Then do you still believe that Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind SIngh? Why? Why not? ... etc.
> Here's the link once again:So called Dasam Granth or {censored} Kavita
> 
> ...



Once again, before we accuse individuals, forum members,  of making any kind of derogatory statement, including but not limited to statements against Gurus or Scripture, *let us check first to see who said what. 
*
It is a fact that the video is so titled with words {censored} kavita. Reporting a fact is not against forum rules. 
Moderators will handle real occurrences based on facts. Thank you.


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## Inder singh (Apr 17, 2008)

Aad002

Very strange reply from a moderator of a sikh site.Have you seen the video?If not see it and then decide what type of video is it.

It is a typical video of propaganda and is very low quality presentation.Tommorow if someone derogatory language about SGGS ji and post it here.Will you allow that.That shows bankruptcy of thought process.


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Aad002
> 
> Very strange reply from a moderator of a sikh site.Have you seen the video?If not see it and then decide what type of video is it.
> 
> It is a typical video of propaganda and is very low quality presentation.Tommorow if someone derogatory language about SGGS ji and post it here.Will you allow that.That shows bankruptcy of thought process.



Forum rules will always be enforced. We cannot enforce SPN rules on the Google video web site.


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## Inder singh (Apr 17, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Forum rules will always be enforced. We cannot enforce SPN rules on the YouTube web site.



in the past you were deleting posts at the drop of a hat even though they were not using uncivilized language.Most of these posts pertained to a particular moderator.

You have no rules for the control of rogue language of a scripture that forms the basis sikh rehat maryada and sikh identity.can you post your forum rules for us to see.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 17, 2008)

Inder Singh ji,

Let's stop this rhetoric by judging the Moderators. Let us talk about Sikhi.

Let me ask you once again. Why is it wrong  to question things in Sikhi? and as I have asked you before, please give me some references from SGGS that state your claim.

Once again, let us try to be what our name-Sikh- says we should be and focus on seeking.

Tejwant


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2008)

Sikhism - Terms of Service

These Forum Rules/Guidelines appear below every message window right above the Edit, Quote, Multiquote Off and Quick Reply buttons. See below.


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## Inder singh (Apr 17, 2008)

tejwant ji

I had asked you in my previous post to be specific about what reference you want.I ahve not got that specific question from you.

If you want the refernce regarding follow Guru's word below is the one

gur kaa kahi-aa ank samaavai.
One who takes the Words of the Guru into his very fiber, nirmal soochay saacho bhaavai.
is immaculate and holy, and is pleasing to the True Lord.
gur saagar ratnee nahee tot.
In the ocean of the Guru, there is no shortage of pearls.
)
laal padaarath saach akhot.
The treasure of jewels is truly inexhaustible.
gur kahi-aa saa kaar kamaavahu.
Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained.
gur kee karnee kaahay Dhaavahu.
Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions?
naanak gurmat saach samaavahu. ||27||
O Nanak, through the Guru's Teachings, merge in the True Lord. ||27||
Ang 933


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 18, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> I have wayched the video.It is worst form of propaganda.Shame on you for relying on second hand sources of biased persons and having no point to forward yourself.


Very nice analysis. You are critical thinker indeed! 
*Instead you analysing its contents, you start making comments about the title and the people!*


Inder singh said:


> Shame on you for calling bani of tenth master as {censored} kavita.That shows your mental level and puts doubt in my mind if you are a sikh or not.


First of all, I didn't call Dasam Granth, {censored} kavita. I didn't think you would have trouble disguishing the title of the video from my reply. The genius who put the video up gave it that title NOT ME! Get this into your head! :}--}:
 I wanted to discuss its contens with someone who could understand punjabi. But you seem to have trouble with Enligh as well. I am sorry.


Inder singh said:


> I reuest the administrators that such uncivilized language should be purged as it relates to bani.


Its not uncivilized language! Its the name of the video for God's sake! :{-
May waheguru bless you.


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## Inder singh (Apr 19, 2008)

<<<I wanted to discuss its contens with someone who could understand punjabi. But you seem to have trouble with Enligh as well. I am sorry.>>>

Beg your pardon for my deficiency in English.

But you can discuss Dasam Granth with me in this language as it may help in lifting veil of darkness being propagated by vested interests.May i know your first question on Dasam Granth?


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## pk70 (Apr 19, 2008)

*Respected Inder Singh Ji,

 Humbly I request you, dont think Bhagat Singh is not a Sikh, it can hurt  bad if he strongly feels for Sikhi. All is just about clarification about the questions raised in there. Who named it, when he named, it is literally immaterial here in this debate. I stand totally against Ghaga, Kala Afgana and same kind of Individual Joginder Singh Spokesman who is dancing to the tunes of Congress; however, there is lot of things need to be clarified because of the history of Dasam Granth, Poets of Guru ji's Court and their writings and above all  to see if all is in complete alignment of Guru Sahiban's Gurbani.  Just take a question and answer with a factual support, debate can go on smoothly. I wanted to participate but due to our heated responses, I excused myself to participate in it directly for ever. The more solid facts you offer, the less question will be put. I shall be thanking you for that.
*


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## Inder singh (Apr 20, 2008)

Pk 70 ji

One can make out of the tone of questioning.Did  i call Bhagat singh a non sikh.Please highlight the post where i committed such a mistake.

Pk70 ji it is easy to say that let us exclude kala afghana and spokesman from this Dasam granrth debate but the fact is the are the ones to start this drama.Many of the mislewd people venerate kala afghana more than our Guru sahiban.

You are inteliligent to understad the scheme of things.Minoroties have to face such things and it is our unity that can fail their designs.

You are most welcome to clarify whatever you wish to clarify on Dasam granth.I will reply in light of my undrstanding.


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## pk70 (Apr 20, 2008)

Quote 
PK70 jo

One can make out of the tone of questioning.Did i call Bhagat singh a non sikh.Please highlight the post where i committed such a mistake.

*Inder Singh Ji

You never said that and I didnt say that you called Bhagat Singh a non siikh; actually it was the statement of yours given below  in this very thread that triggered my suggestion to you, nothing more. Thanks
*  Quote    “Shame on you for calling bani of tenth master as {censored} kavita.That shows your mental level and puts doubt in my mind if you are a sikh or not.”


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 21, 2008)

Inder singh said:


> Pk 70 ji
> 
> Pk70 ji it is easy to say that let us exclude kala afghana and spokesman from this Dasam granrth debate but the fact is the are the ones to start this drama.Many of the mislewd people venerate kala afghana more than our Guru sahiban.
> 
> ...


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## Inder singh (Apr 21, 2008)

Guru Piayario Jio,

KA and Spokesman are not even memebers of thsi or any other Forum.
Just look at WHO started the thread on this forum and continues to berate..and on Yahoo Groups as well until the mods shut it down/begin deleting/editing posts.

IF you and just one or two others let it go....this will die a natural death. Continuing it..just brings more and more sikhs OUT to make up their own minds about dsm garnth etc....until this drama began not many even knew what was what...now more and more are questioning how can such writings be by our GURU...that ginntee will continue to GROW by leaps and bounds. The ONLY method is for the GURU KHALSA PANTH to sit down and discuss rationally - BOTH sides must give and take. Now the "intense heat" is making sides FUSE to their unreasonable arguments...the PROS say 110% is Guru kirt..the Antis have begun to RETREAT from 3% to lesser and lesser...until they may reach ZERO...what a LOSS that would be...

Warmest regards
Gyani jarnail Singh[/quote]

Giani jio

Let us restrict to what is being said here.Let us not bring extraneous debates here.That is digression and a diversion from the thread.

Dasam granth is embedded in sikh psyche for 300 years.We have just started to answer the false notions being spread by some to discredit this scriptpure.There is a abusive language being used for this scripture everyday in spokesman newspaper.We have Hukamnama from akal takhat to reply such miscreants.

Please read Hukamnama 

Dasam Granth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Akal Takhat Matta santsipahi.org

Sikh panth acknowledges this scripture.Why a debate to doubt its authenticity?


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