# Where Have All The True Sikhs Gone



## Harry Haller (Aug 31, 2012)

Gurfatehji

A few days ago, I noticed a turbaned Sikh outside my shop, so I had a little chat, he spoke no english, I speak a little Punjabi, we nodded and chatted, and off he went. 

Yesterday, he came into the shop, I beamed, sat him down, and we chatted about Indian politics, ritual, the state of Sikhism, the DG, although he was not quite sure what the DG was, but we had a great old conversation. 

He then smiled and asked if he could have a laptop for free. I do not think the fellow was hugely well off, and although I was a bit taken aback by the request, I thought, ok, why not, I have a stash of old laptops in the back that I am only to happy to give away for free sometimes, so I agreed. I brought it out, showed him, explained that being a P3 900Mhz, it would have XP on, but it would be a bit slow on the internet. He seemed very happy, and wanted to take it away there and then, I explained I would have to put XP on, and to come back tomorrow, he offered to wait, I explained I was busy, but again, to come back tomorrow, and then he left. 

Telling the story to a family member later, I was warned that I had acted naively, and that I would probably expect many many more requests once word had got round. I was told that my attitude was wrong, and would only get me into trouble. 


Now I really could not see the big deal, I give laptops away all the time, especially older ones, you cannot sell them, so they may as well be put to use rather than in the bin, ok it takes a few hours to load up, but there are 5 or 6 pc's/laptops whirring away here at any one time, another really is not going to make any difference. The same family member often chastises me for not listening to Shabad/doing Path/Naam Japping. I will be honest, I get more satisfaction out of one relevant line from a Metallica song, than I do sometimes from listening to a Shabad, this is not because I do not respect Shabad, but because reading Bani, which I do often, takes time, you have to read a line, understand it, read it again, look at it from every angle, embrace it, and then live it, the only thing that happens when you listen to Shabad is that it is a pleasant tune, and it sounds nice, but I digress. 

Now my points. 

We seem to live in a world where it people listen to Shabad, eyes closed, heads swaying, eyes moist, who then proceed to live their day completely devoid of any need to act as the Shabad suggests, and this is accepted as OK. To go one step further, people will then advise against good actions/intentions because of setting a precedent and inviting more requests for help. I was bothered by these events yesterday, many assumed I was bothered because someone I thought wanted only a chat, actually wanted more, but I could not care less about that. I am bothered by the sheer lack of  weight given to Bani. 


I do not like living in fear, I do not like being scared, a while ago I realised that if I lived in Hukam as best I could, my fears vanished, sure, bad things happened, but other than doing my best for Hukam, there is nothing else I could have done, so at that point, acceptance is the key. 

I would be most interested to hear others reaction to this request, for the record, the laptop is sitting behind me loading up.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*

Bhai Lehnna Ji was once conned out of his horse by a thief who pretended to be hurt by the roadside...when Bhai Sahib ji got off his horse to check and helped him on to the horse, the man immediately struck the heels and began to run off with the horse...realizing this Bhai ji ran after the thief saying..Dont tell anyone..just take the horse as a gift..otherwise people may stop helping injured people....

Previously SIKHS were a TRADEMARK for TRUTHFUL LIVING..hard labour, Honesty, no nonsense, sacrifice etc. A Sikhs word was final truth in Malaysian courts for a long time..sikh criminals were unheard of...even to find a sikh eating outside his home was  a rarity.....Now ALL this is history. WE have abundance of Sikhs in prison, white collar crime blue collar crime, sex crimes, robbery, beatings, marital cases divorces, sikh Lawyers (Liars) cheaters, lazy sikhs, dishonest sikhs, and we also have an abundance of sikhs in kakaars, cholas, round turbans, muttering japps all the time, listening to cds of kirtan in their cars 24/7, akhand paaths sukhmani paaths etc 24/7 going on, gurdwaras full to overflowing, ragis dressed like entertainers huge nagar kirtans, darbars, no shortage of sikhs following babas and god men around, wiping their feet, inviting them to their homes for dinners and sessions... etc etc..
Genuine Hard working Daswnadh GivngKirtee Sikhs are a RARE BREED..a Sikh who understands Gurbani and follows it to Change his life so it SHOWS !!


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## palaingtha (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*

What Giani Jarnail Singh Ji says is absolutely true. The Sikhs of 21st. century are searching materialistic happiness rather than living a the life Guru expected of us viz." Rehni rahey  so hi Sikh mera, oh Guru men ush ka chera".
We cannot correct others but, if individually we truthfully follow Guru's Hukam our religion will reflect in all of us.
Let us pledge that from this moment we will not run after materialistic world but live the life of a TRUE SIKH and, thus bring a great revolution in Sikhism by a noble deed of "LIVING THE LIFE OF A GURSIKH".


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## Harry Haller (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*

Let us not get all taliban on the subject, there is nothing hugely wrong with material happiness, provided it is kept in perspective.If you want a Mercedes, or to dine out at fine restaurants, then provided you have the means, and those means have been earned through Sikh guidelines, then that is great, there does not really need to be noble deeds either, just, as you go through life, help who you can, never turn your back away, be honest, be brave, don't worry about the outcome, better to drive the car you want, and live in the house you want, and be a rock for those around you, than live like a pauper and help no one, in my opinion


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*

Harray Ji,
Gurmatt teaches CONTENTMENT..sehaj.. SANTOKH...awashtha of peace and shanti..a Gurmukh never chases after things..he USES them. Gurbani of Bhagats declares..rukhi suki khao peeyo praii chooppree dekh ke na tarsai jeo..Be CONTENT with what you have achieved..dont be JEALOUS about the other guys plate ....I have seen literally OVERFED members of snagat who cant take in nay more food and about to get up...have  apeek into the newest member sitting down next to them..and they exclaim..OH you have a Laddoo..they were NOT SERVING laddoos when I joined the line for Langgar..I am going back to get myself a laddoo..despite the fact that when he joined the line he got a large serving of Hot Jalebis and Gulab jamuns which have been replaced by laddoos..NO hes not content..he must have the laddoos!!! That sort will never be CONTENT..
Gurmatt doesnt over encourage POVERTY as  a Virtue...you dont have to wear RAGS to earn MERIT...a ragged beggar is not necesarily more virtuous than the big fatso in the Merc..its whats INside that matters...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*

Well my man has just come in, to my horror, he gestured at touching my feet, and smiling broadly said that I was like his father, (why does everyone think I am an old crusty, I am only 43), I asked his age, he was 30! anyhoo, I found a CD my mum had given me of Gurbani, which I played to him, and he was very happy. I rebuffed the request for headphones and wifi, but the battery held charge, we chatted for a few moments, and then I politely exclaimed I had some work to do, and with a cheery wave and a grin he was off, he was very polite, very humble, in that way that Indian Sikhs are. He seemed a bit bemused by the loud heavy metal, but he did spend some time telling me about Bangla Sahib in Delhi, the way he described it brought back memories of when I was last there, nice fella....

Yes, of course, he could sell it, and buy booze/drugs/whatever , but I feel it is not our place to second guess, our diktat is to do what we can within our power, not make ourself at a loss in order to help, but to help if such can be done comfortably, what he does after that, well that is between him and Creator, nothing to do with me


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*




> I will be honest, I get more satisfaction out of one relevant line from a Metallica song,




ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
Bhairao, Fourth Mehl:

ਬੋਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਫਲ ਸਾ ਘਰੀ ॥
Fruitful is that moment when the Lord's Name is spoken.

ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਸਭਿ ਦੁਖ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥੧॥
Following the Guru's Teachings, all pains are taken away. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਭਜੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਰਹਰੀ ॥
O my mind, vibrate the Name of the Lord.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਹੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਭਉ ਤਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O Lord, be merciful, and unite me with the Perfect Guru. Joining with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, I shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰੀ ॥
Meditate on the Life of the World; remember the Lord in your mind.

ਕੋਟ ਕੋਟੰਤਰ ਤੇਰੇ ਪਾਪ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥੨॥
Millions upon millions of your sins shall be taken away. ||2||

ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧ ਧੂਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਰੀ ॥
In the Sat Sangat, apply the dust of the feet of the holy to your face;

ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕੀਓ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਸੁਰਸਰੀ ॥੩॥
this is how to bathe in the sixty-eight sacred shrines, and the Ganges. ||3||

ਹਮ ਮੂਰਖ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੀ ॥
I am a fool; the Lord has shown mercy to me.

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾਰਿਓ ਤਾਰਣ ਹਰੀ ॥੪॥੨॥
The Savior Lord has saved servant Nanak. ||4||2||

Many people will question the idea of Dasvandh or just say we do whatever we can. Well the idea of 10% is a simple one (not sure if it is the same no in Rehat or Gurmat). And 10% is the min donation amount. Just like Nitnem is the min baani you should read daily.


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## Rory (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*

Harry-ji you're an inspiration, I have learnt a lot from you via this forum.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*



Kanwaljit Singh said:


> ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
> Bhairao, Fourth Mehl:
> 
> ਬੋਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਫਲ ਸਾ ਘਰੀ ॥
> ...



The two words that strike out at me are 'min' and 'should'. 

Now Sikhism being a religion of love, Why are we talking about minimums and shoulds?


I love my wife, I like to call her up when shes working and tell her I love her, I am not sure how she would feel if I drew up a minimum amount of times I should call her a day expressing my love.

I love Creation, I love Creator, I love the word of Creator, that is Bani, setting minimums and shoulds seems to cheapen it, ritualise it, where is the love in that? 

Should is a word associated with something not mired in love, I should mow the lawn, I should lose weight, you never hear it associated with something pleasant, I should eat that cake, I should make love to my wife. 

Even when it refers to something pleasant, the inference is that it is not going to be pleasant, if someone were to say, I should go to that party, the inference is that it is an obligation, a duty, 

just my opinion


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## Luckysingh (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*

Harry ji, 
Giving a laptop that would just be sat around and eventually binned was the correct thing to do. It is exactly what I would have done, I just could not have said 'no, it will cost you'
Forget what others say about the word getting around and that you've been abused or taken for a ride, this is ALL nonsense as you clearly know.

What he does with the laptop after, wether he abuses it for porn or sells it or maybe just uses it to skype back home- like you say, is NOT your issue. Any wrong doing anticipated after your kind help should not concern your action. Gurmat and being a true helper is for NOW and the MOMENT in time, not for next day, next week or next year.

The problem with society and even some close family around you is that they love to criticize others actions. If you do something out of greed and self pleasure, then you will be rightfully corrected by critics, however doing a good deed and helping someone in need can also cause much criticism.

I too, have often encountered this. I used to encounter a lot of tramps back in UK, and I would often give whatever spare change I had or even a fiver if I had no loose change.
I never had the heart to refuse and say no or even to think like others that reply 'get out of my way you scum'...etc....etc..
If someone were with me, then I would often hear a remark such as, ''he's only going to buy cider with that'' or ''he's only going to get some more drugs''...etc....etc... -Hearing this, it never made me doubt my action, I always felt correct and still do with my help of kindness. I am simply facing an encounter with someone where our paths are crossing, It is simply (A) giving to (B), if whoever or whatever (B) does with it after, is a path that he will cross with another. God is NOT going to judge me on that 2nd path, that is between them and creator.

Even at home, I would get criticised in sarcastic ways if I picked up the phone whilst watching children in need or similar. I often got remarks because I gave hundreds regularly to UNICF.- It would always be along the lines of ''they pocket that money themselves' or ''how do you know all of it will get there?''....etc..
In these instances you do verify that it is a legal charity ..etc..BUT in the same manner, I am just (A) giving to (C), via a route through (B). If (B) decides NOT to give to (C), then they have been unfaithful not only to themselves but also to Me and (C)!!- ...-That again, is NOT my path to be judging.
 AT my moment and place, I have given to the correct being at that time and place. - MY conscious is clear and will still remain clear, even if it doesn't reach the destination.

I think, that is what really matters- about doing the right thing at the right moment in these instances.

You are a good man for following your instinct and doing the right thing. I wish that everyone had this attitude.
Although it is your work and business, I feel that it is in this environment that the ''real'' help and charity comes into play. There are many that will refuse, because in a business it is considered negative and seen as loosing x amount. But this same person that refuses may do a sponsored run for charity on the weekend!!
--- Well, you can see that this person has a view that work is work ie..business, and charity is charity.... It doesn't take much to figure out which act is more gurmat and who makes a ''real'' decison that can actually matter.

I think you are wise enough to not pay too much attention to others that may critic your charitable actions and you can see that it doesn't matter if the charity may feel that they are abusing your trust and taking you for a ride. It is your Conscious that is kept clear by living and acting in gurmatt manner during ALL moments.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*



> The two words that strike out at me are 'min' and 'should'.
> 
> Now Sikhism being a religion of love, Why are we talking about minimums and shoulds?


 
That is a whole different question. But religion has spiritual and temporal elements. Reading Gurbani could help you fight how Kam Krodh Lobh Moh Ahankar affect you in daily life. You just make estimates of what Paath you should do based on how much of these vices you will face as you go in daily life. That is why Nitnem is well timed for the start of day and once when work is over, and was probably advised by Guru Sahib and followed by Panj Pyare.



> I love my wife, I like to call her up when shes working and tell her I love her, I am not sure how she would feel if I drew up a minimum amount of times I should call her a day expressing my love.


 
But if you don't do it for a year, you might come to think you should do it atleast once a year 



> I love Creation, I love Creator, I love the word of Creator, that is Bani, setting minimums and shoulds seems to cheapen it, ritualise it, where is the love in that?


 
I think Dasvand and Nitnem are not just about love. They represent your duty towards society and your use of Gurbani to protect you in daily battle with vices.



> Should is a word associated with something not mired in love, I should mow the lawn, I should lose weight, you never hear it associated with something pleasant, I should eat that cake, I should make love to my wife.


 
That is like me saying, you should take medicine if your cough is not going away. The whole Rehat Maryada is about how we could try live our lives in spirit of Gurbani in midst of Maya, not forgetting the Creator. You would love to do these things if they help you remember the Creator.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*



> I think you are wise enough to not pay too much attention to others that may critic your charitable actions and you can see that it doesn't matter if the charity may feel that they are abusing your trust and taking you for a ride. It is your Conscious that is kept clear by living and acting in gurmatt manner during ALL moments.



Luckyji

Many thanks for your kind comments, your validation means a lot to me. I think wisdom is overstated though, I do not consider myself wise at all, I am not very sharp, cute, call it what you will, I used to be, in my youth, but a certain way of life has left me a bit dulled. I know sharp people, and they are incredibly quick, astute, it is actually for this reason that  Hukam is so important to me, because I do not have to be wise, Guruji is wise, I can just be me and leave the wisdom to Creator. 

kaurhug


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## Harry Haller (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone...*



> That is a whole different question. But religion has spiritual and temporal elements. Reading Gurbani could help you fight how Kam Krodh Lobh Moh Ahankar affect you in daily life. You just make estimates of what Paath you should do based on how much of these vices you will face as you go in daily life. That is why Nitnem is well timed for the start of day and once when work is over, and was probably advised by Guru Sahib and followed by Panj Pyare



I love the way you have written this, so many of us, myself included fall in the trap of stating what we feel as gospel, you have written this beautifully, without stating it to be the truth, but with enough conviction that it is believable, some could do well to copy your writing style. In fact it is written so well, rather than an outright disagreement, I am going to agree with you. That is not to say it is right for me, I feel it is not, not at this stage in my life. I am at present battling lust, and have for 9 days now, been free of it. I fight it with love, I fill myself with love, I physically connect with people, animals, I hug all my customers, I stop every dog I I see and talk to them, I find this is working wonders with my lust. However if it ever fails, I will take your advice. 



> But if you don't do it for a year, you might come to think you should do it atleast once a year



If I did not do it for a year, it would be best to divorce, rather than force myself



> I think Dasvand and Nitnem are not just about love. They represent your duty towards society and your use of Gurbani to protect you in daily battle with vices.



We differ slightly here, I believe the vices can be won over with understanding, rather than repetition of Bani. You have to understand them, really understand them, for instance, if I feel angry, Naam Japping may work , but I prefer to figure out why I am angry, and realise how utterly pointless it is, and move on. Or if I feel ego, to look at myself in the mirror, and understand how pathetic and ridiculous my thoughts are. I think there is a daily battle, but it is not to battle with ourselves, the battle is act in our role as spiritual policemen to the rest of Creation. To shine a light on Creation, expose injustice, help the weak, support the downtrodden, to be fair, to bring support where there is grief, etc etc, a bit like Batman I guess, but while simultaneously eating an aloo prontha. 



> That is like me saying, you should take medicine if your cough is not going away.



Interesting, that makes Bani the medicine, Guruji the doctor, however, no one enjoys medicine, so I think this analogy is flawed. I would say Bani is more like going to the gym. It is enjoyable, healthy, good for you, addictive, a way of life, it is the difference between 'I should go to the gym' and 'I love going to the gym'


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## itsmaneet (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*



palaingtha said:


> What Giani Jarnail Singh Ji says is absolutely true. The Sikhs of 21st. century are searching materialistic happiness rather than living a the life Guru expected of us viz." Rehni rahey  so hi Sikh mera, oh Guru men ush ka chera".
> We cannot correct others but, if individually we truthfully follow Guru's Hukam our religion will reflect in all of us.
> Let us pledge that from this moment we will not run after materialistic world but live the life of a TRUE SIKH and, thus bring a great revolution in Sikhism by a noble deed of "LIVING THE LIFE OF A GURSIKH".


Using materialistic/worldly things are fine *BUT* even during their usage thankfulness/remembrance should be towards 'Almighty'


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*



itsmaneet said:


> Using materialistic/worldly things are fine *BUT* even during their usage thankfulness/remembrance should be towards 'Almighty'




WE Sikhs dont have to feel "guilty" about being materialistic...our Gurus Never said we cant earn huge salaries..big bonuses..drive merc or bmws..wear finest clothes or live in mansions...we can and should strive for the BEST in EVERYTHING...if we are a Doctor...BE the BEST and get the BEST REWARDS...BUT..be Thankful to HIM...give your DASWANDH...be kind and generous...look at each HUMAN as your OWN...and DONT even dream of taking whats not YOURS....Haak Praya Nanaka us SOOR us Gayeh... Gurmatt is simple really..we make it confusing and difficult.  Look at BILL GATES..or the *Walmart* Guy...they give so much and so generously..imho they are more GURSIKH than many so called Gursikhs i know..and certainly *holier* than the Birlas Tatas and Ambanis....KIRT karnee and Waand Shhaknna are the hallmarks of a Good Sikh..NOT POVERTY or RAGS and MUD HUTS.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Sep 1, 2012)

Harry ji for me it was not gospel, but a few months of doing the morning Baanis with some Sikhs that changed me. Since then I have come to see it as my way. I miss them sometimes, or do them late. Sometimes I eat without doing Paath other times I don't.



> I am at present battling lust, and have for 9 days now, been free of it. I fight it with love, I fill myself with love, I physically connect with people, animals, I hug all my customers, I stop every dog I I see and talk to them, I find this is working wonders with my lust. However if it ever fails, I will take your advice.



That is nice. Will try that. But am awkward when I try hugging people.



> If I did not do it for a year, it would be best to divorce, rather than force myself



That's the thing, beyond some point, if you don't do some given set of things, you feel like you are not living up. I feel the same every time I miss the Paath. I don't wake up early in the morning and I feel the daily need. But I lose it to my mind. 

There are many people who don't say love you to each other for years. They are yet really close. Now what will one do if both wife and husband can't speak.

The idea is everyone defines their own baselines. But in Sangat, what some people revere as Guru Khalsa Panth, people have maintained the baseline of Nitnem and Dasvand.



> We differ slightly here, I believe the vices can be won over with understanding, rather than repetition of Bani. You have to understand them, really understand them, for instance, if I feel angry, Naam Japping may work , but I prefer to figure out why I am angry, and realise how utterly pointless it is, and move on. Or if I feel ego, to look at myself in the mirror, and understand how pathetic and ridiculous my thoughts are. I think there is a daily battle, but it is not to battle with ourselves, the battle is act in our role as spiritual policemen to the rest of Creation. To shine a light on Creation, expose injustice, help the weak, support the downtrodden, to be fair, to bring support where there is grief, etc etc, a bit like Batman I guess, but while simultaneously eating an aloo prontha.



Baani is all about understanding your mind. And most of the time, while reading Bani, the dialogue is with your mind. E.g. In Anand Sahib, Eh Mann Pyareya Tu Sada Sach Samaale. Nitnem is for your daily battle. The personal ones.

Again policemen could have different context for different people. Police in India is so different from one in US and one in UK/Canada. Batman I can relate with 



> Interesting, that makes Bani the medicine, Guruji the doctor, however, no one enjoys medicine, so I think this analogy is flawed. I would say Bani is more like going to the gym. It is enjoyable, healthy, good for you, addictive, a way of life, it is the difference between 'I should go to the gym' and 'I love going to the gym'



Guru Sahib has defined Bani and Naam as Aukhad. You could consider it like sweet nectar of a medicine, not the bitter one. It is surprising that some people are afraid of reading Gurbani lest it should give them Bairaag. E.g. my mom cannot read Salok Mahalla 9 as it breaks down her reality.

The difference between 'I should go' or 'I love to go' to gym is the fact that the former goes for 2-3 days and gives up. While the latter makes a life out of it.


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## namjiwankaur (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*

Sat Nam

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji

I am learning that the more people who follow a religion, the more chance there is of "going astray" in some way.  And usually it is caused by something that sociologists would explain well.  Either poverty or oppression can cause this.  Also, maybe there are Sikhs who are born Sikh, but develop a more secular life because they somehow couldn't find the Divine through the religion of their birth.

I was baptized a Christian as a baby and I never "felt Christian".  Thankfully, in the 90s, I worked in a library and started exploring other religions.  Then the internet came along and I had a wealth of information and opportunities to find the best path for me.

Just as there are many Jews who identify as ethnically Jewish, but are atheist and secular, could it be this is also happening in the Sikh community?

What bothers me is when someone of a religion commits a crime and somehow every person who practices that religion is assumed to be guilty of the crime.

My question, what could save these Sikhs?  What guidance do they need or are they lost causes?  I participate in prison ministry and it has taught me so much about "there but for the grace of God go I".

How easy it is to take a wrong turn on any path.  I think that the reaction of Bhai Lehnna Ji would show that criminal the path of love.  And it is so much more powerful to offer an experience of Love to the lost than to speak about how to experience Love.  

How do we ever find a way to describe Him/Her?  Bhai Lehnna Ji met this criminal on the spiritual path and while they shared that path for a very short time there was a sweet fragrant experience  (and who knows maybe the thief contemplated on what happened w/ the horse and found his way to Love).

gingerteakaur






Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Bhai Lehnna Ji was once conned out of his horse by a thief who pretended to be hurt by the roadside...when Bhai Sahib ji got off his horse to check and helped him on to the horse, the man immediately struck the heels and began to run off with the horse...realizing this Bhai ji ran after the thief saying..Dont tell anyone..just take the horse as a gift..otherwise people may stop helping injured people....
> 
> Previously SIKHS were a TRADEMARK for TRUTHFUL LIVING..hard labour, Honesty, no nonsense, sacrifice etc. A Sikhs word was final truth in Malaysian courts for a long time..sikh criminals were unheard of...even to find a sikh eating outside his home was  a rarity.....Now ALL this is history. WE have abundance of Sikhs in prison, white collar crime blue collar crime, sex crimes, robbery, beatings, marital cases divorces, sikh Lawyers (Liars) cheaters, lazy sikhs, dishonest sikhs, and we also have an abundance of sikhs in kakaars, cholas, round turbans, muttering japps all the time, listening to cds of kirtan in their cars 24/7, akhand paaths sukhmani paaths etc 24/7 going on, gurdwaras full to overflowing, ragis dressed like entertainers huge nagar kirtans, darbars, no shortage of sikhs following babas and god men around, wiping their feet, inviting them to their homes for dinners and sessions... etc etc..
> Genuine Hard working Daswnadh GivngKirtee Sikhs are a RARE BREED..a Sikh who understands Gurbani and follows it to Change his life so it SHOWS !!


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## Rory (Sep 1, 2012)

Luckysingh said:
			
		

> The problem with society and even some close family around you is that  they love to criticize others actions. If you do something out of greed  and self pleasure, then you will be rightfully corrected by critics,  however doing a good deed and helping someone in need can also cause  much criticism.


So true. As someone said on a different thread, critics are a dime-a-dozen. 
Harry-ji it sounds like your critics are jealous of your good will and your confidence to act on it. Congratulations for not letting that sway you.
peacesign


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## palaingtha (Sep 5, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> WE Sikhs dont have to feel "guilty" about being materialistic...our Gurus Never said we cant earn huge salaries..big bonuses..drive merc or bmws..wear finest clothes or live in mansions...we can and should strive for the BEST in EVERYTHING...if we are a Doctor...BE the BEST and get the BEST REWARDS...BUT..be Thankful to HIM...give your DASWANDH...be kind and generous...look at each HUMAN as your OWN...and DONT even dream of taking whats not YOURS....Haak Praya Nanaka us SOOR us Gayeh... Gurmatt is simple really..we make it confusing and difficult.  Look at BILL GATES..or the *Walmart* Guy...they give so much and so generously..imho they are more GURSIKH than many so called Gursikhs i know..and certainly *holier* than the Birlas Tatas and Ambanis....KIRT karnee and Waand Shhaknna are the hallmarks of a Good Sikh..NOT POVERTY or RAGS and MUD HUTS.



I beg to differ with Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji on TWO points.
1) .. be the BEST and get BEST AWARDS... 
My comments:-  One should try to outshine in his chosen profession but a True Sikh should not hanker for better or best awards. He should be content for having done his duty and paid for his services. Now adays professional people are after accumulating wealth by hook or crook, like doctors fixing high fees or charging exorbitantly for their medical services, etc., Lawyer cheating their clients or charging unreasonably higher fees, the businessman, the engineers, the Accountants and others doing the same type of unethical practices. All ( mostly ) have their vision fixed on accumulating wealth by hook or crook.
2) ..BILL GATES & WALMART GUY are more Gur Sikhs than many.....
My comments: One is a  Sikh only when he believes in the Sikh Guru Sahibans and Guru Granth Sahib etc.
 One may agree that they are good human beings and are philanthropists but far from being SIKHS at all.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*



palaingtha said:


> I beg to differ with Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji on TWO points.
> 1) .. be the BEST and get BEST *AWARDS*...
> My comments:-  One should try to outshine in his chosen profession but a True Sikh should not hanker for better or best awards. He should be content for having done his duty and paid for his services. Now adays professional people are after accumulating wealth by hook or crook, like doctors fixing high fees or charging exorbitantly for their medical services, etc., Lawyer cheating their clients or charging unreasonably higher fees, the businessman, the engineers, the Accountants and others doing the same type of unethical practices. All ( mostly ) have their vision fixed on accumulating wealth by hook or crook.
> 2) ..BILL GATES & WALMART GUY are more Gur Sikhs than many.....
> ...



Gurupiyario jios,

1. my word is "*REWARDS*"..not AWARDS.
Reward is Salary/renumeration/pay/bonus etc. This is perfectly in line with HONEST KIRT...Honest Labour. IF a carpenter makes the Best manjas..he is perfectly entitled to get the Best rewards..that is best PRICE. Hes under no obligation to just sell at Throw away prices/give away prices/etc etc like buy 2 get one free...I just Bought an excellent Manja and paid a PREMIUM PRICE - almost DOUBLE the factory made manja price in the market..this manja is hand made lovingly decorated with nice designs, oiled choolas so its totally silent when i move on it while sleeping..perfectly balanced legs, paavahs rock solid and huge...for ME its the BEST manja at the BEST PRICE. I certainly would not go around asking to buy a BMW at Maruti price and then accuse the dealer of trying to cheat me ?? or accuse him of ....and make him feel guilty ?? No jios. *BEST DESERVES BEST IN RETURN.*

2. You have made a distinction between "SIKH" * those wearing turbans, beards, kirpan gatras, commonly seen in and around Gurdwaras.....and "sikhs" like Bll Gates, Marrett of Walmart, etc. To my mind there is NO DISTINCTION.
Reason:.....many among those that LOOK like Sikhs and mass in Gurdwaras, nagar Kirtans, Kirtan darbars..etc..also bow to Hanumans and Shiv Lings, gift chadars at Muslim graves, matha tek here and there bathing at sarovars and ganga rivers tying maulees red strings to wrists, keeping fasts and chholay parshaad at shnnivaar....everywhere..DONT KNOW a SINGLE LINE of Gurbani, Cannot tell you the names of the 10 Gurus in full and good order, ...etc etc etc...seldom if ever take out full daswandh, and follow none of what SGGS says or SRM ordains...YET they are STILL "SIKHS"..becasue they are Jatt, Punjabi, born in Sikh families.Thats the complete Qualification LIST for such SIKHS.

The other type..like Bill gates may not have even heard of Guur Nanak..have never visited a Gurdwara..or worn a dastaar or beard..know no punjabi or anything like thta..YET their "ACTIONS"..Kirt  karnee Waand Chhaknna, do Good donate generously etc etc..maybe qualify them a LOT more to be SIKH than the jatt punjabi clean shaven munda singing filthy songs on stage but still SIKH !!  This SECOND type has way more chance of becoming a GURSIKH than the First type..they are SUNK.

Just my opinions Jios..no offense to anyone. I Personally KNOW a lot of SIKHS of the SECOND category who i respect much more than the First type...


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## chazSingh (Sep 5, 2012)

Harry Ji,

to your question/post, a poem always comes to mind that i read regularly as it's straight to the point:

*People are often unreasonable and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of ulterior motives. Be kind anyway. 
If you are honest, people may cheat you. Be honest anyway.
If you find happiness, people may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today may be forgotten tomorrow. Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have and it may never be enough. Give your best anyway. 
For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.” 
― Kent M. Keith*


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## palaingtha (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Where are have all the true Sikhs gone*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Gurupiyario jios,
> 
> 1. my word is "*REWARDS*"..not AWARDS.
> Reward is Salary/renumeration/pay/bonus etc. This is perfectly in line with HONEST KIRT...Honest Labour. IF a carpenter makes the Best manjas..he is perfectly entitled to get the Best rewards..that is best PRICE. Hes under no obligation to just sell at Throw away prices/give away prices/etc etc like buy 2 get one free...I just Bought an excellent Manja and paid a PREMIUM PRICE - almost DOUBLE the factory made manja price in the market..this manja is hand made lovingly decorated with nice designs, oiled choolas so its totally silent when i move on it while sleeping..perfectly balanced legs, paavahs rock solid and huge...for ME its the BEST manja at the BEST PRICE. I certainly would not go around asking to buy a BMW at Maruti price and then accuse the dealer of trying to cheat me ?? or accuse him of ....and make him feel guilty ?? No jios. *BEST DESERVES BEST IN RETURN.*
> ...




Reply by Palaingtha to S. Jarnail Singh Ji's reply to my comments.

I inadvertently typed AWARD instead of REWARD. I am of the opinion that what is honestly reasonable is good enough. When you say that the Manja prepared by a local carpenter who made a better Manja than factory manufactured Manjas for which you paid double the price of Factory made. The price you paid is reasonable. The carpenter and your goodself seem to be very satisfied.This is fair trade. The carpenter is not expecting more than what he is getting.
Regarding the Sikhs going to Muslim Graves and Hindu Mandirs and doing all such things that are not acceptable in Sikhism, I will call them fragile Sikhs. They have no moral strength and can be easily molded from their chosen/by birth religion to any other and other. Yet they are still Sikhs. You may say their belief in Sikhism is not strong.While those who do not believe in Sikhism are not Sikhs. It is our weakness our Sikh brothers are going astray and for this state of affairs our leadership/religious personalities are to be blamed.
Allow me to discuss two (of many) instances:-
1) Our Head Granthi at Darbar Sahib about four five months back recited REHRAS SAHIB as if were reading Poetry in his solitude. Now he has been corrected. Still he falls again like poetry reciting. In Bhupinder Singh Nagar, Delhi,(not a posh colony), there is a small colony Gurdwara and the Bhai Sahib, a young man of about 30, recites REHRAS SAHIB very accurately.
2) A Sikh comes along on his car and stops by a Peeple Tree under which there is a tomb like structure. He stops his car and goes to the tree and with folded hands preys facing towards tomb-like structure. Now this Tomb like structure is nothing but a small structure made by one whose land had been acquired by the Govt. and he wanted to hold this place as his and he built a tomb like structure. It was not a tomb. This Sardar was very fragile Sikh because he succumbed to believe that the thing is SAVIOUR.
I think he has not been brought up in True Sikh family and also was never in near proximity of true Sikh religious practices.
I do agree with you that many of the so called Sikhs having Sikh appearance do not have an iota of their religion and such Sikhs go to Mazars, Hindu Mandirs, practice Hindu Karam Kand and believe the "RAM" mentioned in GGS is Ram Chander of Ramayana. Ignorant people. 
Kuldip Singh Lamba


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## Harry Haller (Sep 6, 2012)

> Ignorant people.


I used to be one of those ignorant people, the trouble is, no one questions anymore, if some old beardy in a solemn voice tells you to do something, you tend to do it. I do not think it is ignorance per se, I think it is because Sikhs are too trusting. 99% of Sikhs at Amritsar will do the same to the area where Baba Deep Singh fought, the same number will have Guru's photos and pictures in the house, to them that is Sikhism. They are not ignorant people, although what they are doing is certainly ignorant. The problem lies with those at the top, until the message is clear and shouted from every Gurudwara, this ignorance will only get worse, until the rest of us are viewed as heretics, oh, wait a minute, too late..................


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## chazSingh (Sep 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I used to be one of those ignorant people, the trouble is, no one questions anymore, if some old beardy in a solemn voice tells you to do something, you tend to do it. I do not think it is ignorance per se, I think it is because Sikhs are too trusting. 99% of Sikhs at Amritsar will do the same to the area where Baba Deep Singh fought, the same number will have Guru's photos and pictures in the house, to them that is Sikhism. They are not ignorant people, although what they are doing is certainly ignorant. The problem lies with those at the top, until the message is clear and shouted from every Gurudwara, this ignorance will only get worse, until the rest of us are viewed as heretics, oh, wait a minute, too late..................


 
I used to be (and sometimes still fall into the trap) that used to judge others...those sikhs should be like this, and they should be like that...and they 'haven't got a clue' etc etc etc...

and then i realised that in life...we are not here to judge anyone else...but here to only judge ourselves...to drive out our own negatives. People get stuck in 'looking outward' at everyone else.

If every single person on the planet changed even just one negative aspect of their character into a positve, how the world would change for the better in a single moment

*naanak parakhae aap ko thaa paarakh jaan ||
*_*O Nanak, if someone judges himself, only then is he known as a real* judge. SGGS Ji 148_

*"if you want to make the world a better place...take a look at yourself and make a change" *
Michael Jackson (man in the mirror)


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## Harry Haller (Sep 6, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> I used to be (and sometimes still fall into the trap) that used to judge others...those sikhs should be like this, and they should be like that...and they 'haven't got a clue' etc etc etc...
> 
> and then i realised that in life...we are not here to judge anyone else...but here to only judge ourselves...to drive out our own negatives. People get stuck in 'looking outward' at everyone else.
> 
> ...



Chazji, my old nemesis, I have missed you, welcome back

Lots of things are written, lots of things are stated, but these are all meaningless unless one has formulated a filtering system, a testing system, so that one can see forward. 

I am not a great lover of Sakhis, and certainly not to prove a point, however, if we are to take the Sakhi of Guru Nanakji watering his crops in the Punjab, to show others the pointless aspect of ritual, where does that fit in with your thoughts?

Worship of anything other than Creator is frowned upon in Sikhism, that much is gospel, and cannot be argued against, how do you propose we correct people that worship all and sundry, yet call themselves Sikhs?


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## chazSingh (Sep 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji, my old nemesis, I have missed you, welcome back
> 
> Lots of things are written, lots of things are stated, but these are all meaningless unless one has formulated a filtering system, a testing system, so that one can see forward.
> 
> ...


 
Guru Nanak dev ji was 'complete purity of spirit' ... god walking the earth.

sath*i*g*u*r hathh n*i*b*ae*rr jhagarr ch*u*k*aa*e*i**aa* ||
_The judgement is in the Hands of the True Guru, who puts an end to the argument. 139_

There is a big difference in Guru Nanak dev ji judging others, compared to me and you judging others....

Only through ones own purity of actions can others learn to better themselves...so the priority is to always better oneself and then our purity spreads to others through our own actions and behavior and the following effect occurs:

cha(n)dhan bhagath*aa* j*o*th e*i*n*ae*h*ee* sarab*ae* paramal karan*aa* ||2||
_The Lord's devotees are like sandalwood, which imparts its fragrance to everyone. ||2|| SGGS Ji p721_

Thats not to say that we shouldnt point out whats right and wrong to others if it's so plainly obvious...but on how many occasions when we tell someone that they're doing wrong do they reply "why would i listen to you, you do this and that youself" ... if we purify our own actions first, people would be more receptive and also learn from us.

Hence why if you feel you are doing something good and with good intentions like giving away a laptop...you should continue to do those things regardless of whatever anyone else says  maybe one day they will learn from you.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 6, 2012)

> Guru Nanak dev ji was 'complete purity of spirit' ... god walking the earth.



I disagree, he was a normal man, if he were God walking the earth, we would worship him, which we do not. He had attained a super knowledge and wisdom, this does not mean he was God, could do miracles, or anything other than know truly who he was, which is the goal for all of us. 



> There is a big difference in Guru Nanak dev ji judging others, compared to me and you judging others....



Guru Nanak went out of his way to expose ritual as empty practice, ritual is not hard to spot, I for one wish there were more Sikhs who would stand up and say, 'know what, this is not in the essence of Sikhism, should we be doing this' rather than watch from the sidelines



> Only through ones own purity of actions can others learn to better  themselves...so the priority is to always better oneself and then our  purity spreads to others through our own actions and behavior and the  following effect occurs:
> 
> cha(n)dhan bhagath*aa* j*o*th e*i*n*ae*h*ee* sarab*ae* paramal karan*aa* ||2||
> _The Lord's devotees are like sandalwood, which imparts its fragrance to everyone. ||2|| Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p721_



There are two issues here, personal and panthic. I believe we owe a duty to the panth to set precedents, to educate, to expose, again, it is up to the individual if they wish to spend their time only on themselves, or on returning Sikhism to its former glory. To substantiate what that glory is, the building blocks are quite simple, truth, bravery, only one God, I don't think we can disagree on this, actually, thats a lie, I am sure we can lol



> Thats not to say that we shouldnt point out whats right and wrong to  others if it's so plainly obvious...but on how many occasions when we  tell someone that they're doing wrong do they reply "why would i listen  to you, you do this and that youself" ... if we purify our own actions  first, people would be more receptive and also learn from us.



 How do we then point at the Emperor and exclaim he has no clothes? 

Where do you draw the line? Should we agree with all the fake Babas? Should we agree with the clown Dhadrianwale? Are these people likely to learn from us? I think not



> Hence why if you feel you are doing something good and with good  intentions like giving away a laptop...you should continue to do those  things regardless of whatever anyone else says  maybe one day they will learn from you.



impossible, any good deed cannot be talked about, or shared with the world, I shared it here purely for reasons of debate, the only person that learned anything was the person who took it, and even then, I did not do it for him, I did it for Creator, and possibly for myself.


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## chazSingh (Sep 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I disagree, he was a normal man, if he were God walking the earth, we would worship him, which we do not. He had attained a super knowledge and wisdom, this does not mean he was God, could do miracles, or anything other than know truly who he was, which is the goal for all of us.
> 
> *ma(n)nae kee gath kehee n jaae ||
> The state of the faithful cannot be described. Jap 3
> ...


 
God bless


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## Harry Haller (Sep 6, 2012)

Chazji
I would be lying if I said I did not enjoy our debates, I do, and I find you a formidable debater, I hope you do not find my replies personal in any way, as I hold you in very high esteem

Firstly, please please try and quote and reply, it makes the post much much easier to read, rather than typing in blue. 



> I agree, but would you listen to someone that doesnt  practice what he preaches? No. therefore the purer we are ourselves the  better the chance that others will take note and listen



How do we know? one who thinks of himself as pure is automatically disqualified lol lol lol 



> The 'ism' in sikh 'ism' is man made...a true sikh (as  you are wondering where they are) is someone that is 'seeking the  truth'. A truth seeker eventually realises that he will not find the  truth on the outside...and as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji explains we must  search for the truth 'within'. A true sikh is an explorer of his own  consciousness seeking his true self, god and guru.
> With the 'seeking' he attains the truth, understands true bravery (like you said) and then helps others to seek the truth also.



Hmm sorry, I think this lacks as a definition. You could apply this definition to the matted haired yogis with better conviction! In my view a true Sikh is someone who applies the facets of the SGGS into his daily life, without ritual or show. Why does one need to know oneself when one has Hukam? Embrace Hukam, you soon find out who you are , the truth is not that hard to find, the truth is harder to live though, maybe thats why people search inward, they are looking for a more palatable truth 



> There will always be good people and there will always be bad people (part of duality)



I find the majority of Sikhs neither good, nor bad, but following a strain of Sikhism that bears has little in common with what it should be, that does not make them good or bad, just misinformed. 



> There will always be good people and there will always be bad people (part of duality)
> A True sikh is one that shines the light like a lighthouse and helps and guides as many people as possible*A lighthouse that is not functioning properly itself isnt going to be much good to anyone is it?*
> This  is why a 'Seeker of Truth' must also seek the truth that exists within  himself and become the truth himself and then help others also



YOu must remember that on this forum, I behave different to real life, in real life, I do not discuss my own opinions, I listen. Here, if I find an opinion at odds with mine, like yours, I can debate, that is different. I do not believe it is for a true Sikh to do anything other than act within Hukam. If through this, others take on board a message great, but it is the Hukam that is the most important. 



> I believe any good we do has a 'ripple  effect'...we make someone smile..they get into a happier mood...their  interactions with other people that day become better and happier...and  it spreads...and spreads.
> 
> That much i hope we can agree on



absolutely



> How about we stop doing things for the creator and self and do nice things *naturally* and *without a seconds thought *because its the *'right thing to do*' - thats what our real true self would do....and thats what we're *seeking* as a *True Sikh. *



How would you know what you are doing is nice? If a child asks for an expensive toy, is it right you should instantly provide? If someone asks to borrow a thousand pounds, should you just lend it, or give it? By following Hukam, which is the will of Creator, where everything is done for Creator, you get a jist of what is the right thing to do, otherwise, what you may think is the right thing, may be the wrong thing.......

I


> think with your laptop example, you  instinctively did something good...i hope i can become like that  also...and do more things like that.



Its no big deal, it was going in the bin, my wife however, has a heart 20 times bigger than mine, and she gives naturally, not as part of Hukam, which is why we are broke and I have to drive a Hyundai. Neither of us, to my parents shame, have any real value for money, which is why my family does not understand, as they have to keep bailing us out, so I only assist others now when it does not cost me anything, as I feel borrowing to give is not within Hukam. 

God bless you too brother


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## chazSingh (Sep 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> I would be lying if I said I did not enjoy our debates, I do, and I find you a formidable debater, I hope you do not find my replies personal in any way, as I hold you in very high esteem
> it's just friendly debate
> 
> ...


 
God bless


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## Admin (Sep 6, 2012)

Off-topic: ChazSingh ji, please use quotes to respond to messages. Otherwise it is becoming that much harder to understand, who is writing what. Simply copy, paste & them select the text in the quick reply box and click the quote button
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  from toolbar in Quick reply box below. As simple as that. Thank you so much!

Gurfateh!


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## namjiwankaur (Sep 6, 2012)

Aman Singh ji

I couldn't figure out how to do it either.  Thanks for your help.

:sippingcoffeemunda:



Aman Singh said:


> Off-topic: ChazSingh ji, please use quotes to respond to messages. Otherwise it is becoming that much harder to understand, who is writing what. Simply copy, paste & them select the text in the quick reply box and click the quote button
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Sep 7, 2012)

i


> t's just friendly debate



yes it is!



> No one would state they are pure or purer...but  usually i tend to listen to friends who have a good nature...they say  things sometimes that strike you deep within...sometimes you just know  you've heard the truth from them....or they do something infront of you  (not for show-but just their natural character) and you know they did a  good deed and it makes you want to be more like that...



You have a better view of people than me, maybe my life experience has made me cynical, I suppose I expect nothing from people, in fact I am suspicious of anyone with a good nature, I wonder what they are hiding. However, I try and deal with people as per Hukam. Give me animals and computers anyday lol. My problem, and my wife has it worse, is that we can feel anothers pain very acutely, my wife is fortunate that she can feel and share anothers happiness in just the same way, but I do not seem to feel this. Good deeds in itself is an oxy{censored}, you were correct in another post when you said that to do such should come naturally, I agree, then all deeds are good, and that becomes a way of life, However, I do mine out of a sense of responsability and duty to Creation, wife does so out of love. 




> people search inward because they want to explore who  they are...and thats how gurbani tells us we can do this. We come into  this world to experience opposites (duality)....hot/cold anger/love  hate/compasion attachment/freedom, good/bad etc etc
> A  bigger part of this experience of oppisites is the experience of  temporary and permanent .... both opposite experiences....and in-order  for us to understand the ever-lasting (god/soul) we needed to experience  the temporary.
> The everlasting  component within us is our Soul....why should we not want to understand  and experience it? after-all it is our real self.



Yes, I do agree with this, it is important to know who you are, although I feel we come into this world to make a difference, rather than any personal development. I would like to think through serving Creation, we become a servant to Creation, and through this we know ourselves. I would imagine you use meditation for the same.I worry sometimes when I read your posts, I feel like tying a rope to your ankles so you do not drift too far away from real life and lose yourself in the living death. Living is very important, and when one has family and friends, one cannot afford to become too detatched from reality. 



> i think it's all part of the experience...in duality  we have to taste falsehood to understand the truth...both have to exist  and both experience raise our awareness and consciousness.



It is easy to dismiss this, but then, I have tasted more falsehood than many, and I do put my current state down to my past, so you may be correct, 



> acting in hukam *naturally* is i believe the  true state...spontaneusly, without thought. Many people do this because  they are told to do so, for a better spot in heaven...but there  character may still be bad.
> Gurbani can  tell you to act a certain way...and you may practice it...but i feel  when you uncover your soul, you start to do things intuitively,  spontaneously, naturally...whatever you want to call it.



There is a comic book called Asterix and the Normans, it is about the Normans, they do not feel fear, they have no concept of fear, the comic argues that one cannot be truly brave until one has faced fear, not knowing fear does not qualify, as this not bravery, it is lack of fear. I feel anyone who does things for heaven is deluded, but I disagree that Hukam should be natural, if it were, what new is there to be learnt? I believe Hukam is a daily test, of your discipline, your morals, to make the right choices, I personally follow Hukam because I am tired of making the wrong decisions, bankruptcy, illness, prison, are all a great education, at some point you tire of the cost of your decisions, you give yourself up to a higher guide, its why I have no friends, my best friend is my Guru, he is kind of a hard act to follow. lol 




> Sometimes from inside youself in a certain  situation you get this gut feeling, or a sense of wanting to do  something and you just know it's the perfect thing to do or the right  thing to do...it feels natural.



this to me is Hukam



> othertimes, the mind takes over...thinks too much  (as it works in time and space)...makes excuses, doubts, followed by  fear, anxiety...and we make a decision which doesnt really feel  right...and often causes problems in our lifes...stress etc.



and this is my dear wolf, when I was younger, the howling would not go away until I had satisfied it by making wrong decisions. 



> I believe The first example comes from the  soul....the second from the mind...i know which example i would rather  happen more often. As you enravel your soul, intuition increases (as in  the first example)



I am uncomfortable with this splitting of myself, it starts to beg the question 'who am i?'

I believe there is me, there is Guru, and there are the thieves, who make up my wolf. I try and do Guruji's bidding, sometimes I have to prowl the night naked howling at the moon and tasting the sweet blood of a freshly killed rabbit. It is not a battle anymore, I wonder if as per your above para about Hukam being completely natural, whether that would involve the loss of my wolf. The essence of wolf is minimal these days. 



> love, compassion, forgiveness, helping, giving,  sharing selflessly only happens with hukam....it's the soul's natural  way...that is the true hukam and true will of God.
> you  should only give within your means. a person that gives £10 to charity  is no less that a person that gives £1000 ... if it's given within your  means, sent with love and for no ego-trip.



I hate being thanked, and I hate fuss, my problem is the pain I feel when I see others in pain. I find it hard to walk by, not because I am a good person, I just have an empathy with anyone in distress, I guess I know how it feels to be homeless, broke, cold, hungry, I know the desperation, and having been there, how can I walk by someone in the same situation. Its not about what you give, I think its about what you do, to my mind, I did not give someone a laptop, I spent 3 hours loading it up with software, that is the true value, and that is what I gave, 3 hours. Why did I do it? I believe Creator sent him my way, and I did it for Creator. I believe Creator sends a lot of people my way, and it is my duty to treat them well. Not to make Creator happy, or even for the person, but to remain in consonance with Creation. To put something back into the big swirly thing we call life, and know what? I meet Harry's everyday, I meet Harry when he was 11, when he was 17, 23, 29, 35, 40, I keep meeting him, and when I look into peoples eyes sometimes, I see Harry looking back at me, and knowing what Harry turns into, I try my best to help, to guide, to warn of the dangers of a free Wolf. 

We have just bought 2 puppies, as we are just about able to stand on our own two feet again after 2 years, it was a big decision, it means we are unable now to ask for bail outs, in fact, I have even been looking at 2nd hand range rovers! 

Many thanks for your reply, I enjoyed writing this

God bless you brother


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## chazSingh (Sep 7, 2012)

> You have a better view of people than me, maybe my life experience has made me cynical, I suppose I expect nothing from people, in fact I am suspicious of anyone with a good nature, I wonder what they are hiding. However, I try and deal with people as per Hukam. Give me animals and computers anyday lol.


I always think of a scenario....when i die...god asks me.."what happened in your life" ... i say "people often said bad things to me" god says "so what did you do?" i say "i hit them back verbally twice as hard" god says "so you learnt to be just like them? actually worse than them?"
point is...i can't control how others behave...but i can decide how i myself react.

Last winter, my life was threatened by someone...normally i would have re-acted with the same...this time i thought i'd try forgiving, and re-acting in a humble way ... we shall see how things develop.
This doesnt mean i will not defend myself if needs be...but i will try other things before. I also imagine how my Simran would be affected if i was filled with rage. 



> Yes, I do agree with this, it is important to know who you are, although I feel we come into this world to make a difference, rather than any personal development.


Think how much a child has to develop physically and intellectually to be of service to the community in the adult years. In the same way if we raise our consciosness and awareness even beyond what it is now like guru ji says, imagine how much more usefull we would be to the people around us. This is just my belief though.



> I would imagine you use meditation for the same.I worry sometimes when I read your posts, I feel like tying a rope to your ankles so you do not drift too far away from real life and lose yourself in the living death. Living is very important, and when one has family and friends, one cannot afford to become too detatched from reality.


As they say "the proof is in the pudding" - i can never turn my back on simran and meditation because i know what i've experienced and how it's changed my life for the better.... 




> I believe Hukam is a daily test, of your discipline, your morals, to make the right choices, I personally follow Hukam because I am tired of making the wrong decisions, bankruptcy, illness, prison, are all a great education, at some point you tire of the cost of your decisions, you give yourself up to a higher guide, its why I have no friends, my best friend is my Guru, he is kind of a hard act to follow. lol


through your experiences, you start to ask some deeper questions about life and you're very active on this forum...your seeking has been sparked.
The guru is at work within you. i'm sure of it. 




> and this is my dear wolf, when I was younger, the howling would not go away until I had satisfied it by making wrong decisions.


I've made many a wrong decision myself...but i feel i am a better person for having experienced those things...to know something is wrong, we sometimes have to do it and experience it to realise it...it's just part of this whole setup. When those wrong things occur, we hate the world...but i believe when we see those experiences from a higher perspective we will be thankful for it all one day.

It's like people say 'Drugs are bad'...who will have a better understanding of 'drugs are bad'?
a. someone who has never taken any drugs or never interacted with someone else who is on drugs
b. someone who has taken drugs and had bad experiences
c. someone who has interacted with a drug taker and seen it's consequences

i would say B and C are more aware and conscious of why 'drugs are bad' ... if they *LEARN* from those experiences they will be better for it than person A will ever be.



> I believe there is me, there is Guru, and there are the thieves, who make up my wolf.


you have just divided youself into 2 seperate units...there is you(self/soul) and the thieves (mind generated). the process of simran isnt to empty the mind, or to stop it from chattering...it's to just be able to ignore it's nonsense and withdraw your attention from it.

Like trying to watch a football match whilst your wife is trying to fill you in with all the family gossip...you withdraw your attention from your wifes chatter and move it towards the T.V  the wife is still talking...but you notice her less, and you're able to give more focus to the football.

Same with simran, the mind still chatters, but it's less noticeable to you and your attention goes to the things you maybe didnt hear or see due to the chatter of the mind...you'll be amazed at what you find. 




> We have just bought 2 puppies, as we are just about able to stand on our own two feet again after 2 years, it was a big decision, it means we are unable now to ask for bail outs, in fact, I have even been looking at 2nd hand range rovers!


Range rovers are great...hope you find one you like.



[/QUOTE]


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## Harry Haller (Sep 7, 2012)

kaurhug

I cannot find anything to disagree with, your no fun anymore

Wheres Itsameetji gone


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## chazSingh (Sep 7, 2012)

harry haller said:


> kaurhug
> 
> I cannot find anything to disagree with, your no fun anymore
> 
> Wheres Itsameetji gone


 
harry ji, please disagree...otherwise i'll have to actually do some work in the office


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## Harry Haller (Sep 7, 2012)

ok ok I am sure I will find something


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## chazSingh (Sep 7, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Nope, I don't think I have ever read any of your posts that were that agreeable, I did try one point, but ended up arguing your point instead so I gave up.
> 
> I feel a great loss..............
> 
> The title of the thread is where have all the true Sikhs gone, in each of our own ways, you through simran, and me through sewa, we must feel an essence of Sikhism that those that go through motions must not be aware of, what are your thoughts on that, and how much is it our responsibility to try and share the bliss of what we have found with such people?


 
I feel it's all about our own awareness...as our awareness increases we may share with others what we may have learnt.
If we remain in a house, we can only share information about the house...we wonder into the street, then we can return to the house and inspire others to wonder into the street, some may do, others may stay in their comfort zone (which is not a bad thing...their time will come when it's their destiny)...

But, We can never say we know it all....for we may later learn that beyond the street are more streets... a town, city etc etc.

some of the views i have posted before have changed...it's part of the evolution of us spiritually...part of the fun i think.

all we can do is inspire each other if we can...our experiences may all be different but that just confirms the infinite nature of God.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 7, 2012)

nope nothing there to disagree with, its over Chazji, somethings changed, arguing with you is not the same as it used to be...............


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## Admin (Sep 7, 2012)

namji{censored}aur said:


> Aman Singh ji
> 
> I couldn't figure out how to do it either.  Thanks for your help.
> 
> :sippingcoffeemunda:





For example, the following is the message you want to quote!

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Select First line, copy & paste below:

[quote ]*Many members at SPN, come from various  religious & cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting  opinions.*[/QUOTE ]

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> *Many members at SPN, come from various  religious & cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting  opinions.*


I hope it helps.


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