# The World Of Words By I J Singh



## IJSingh (Mar 7, 2012)

THE WORLD OF WORDS

I.J. Singh

Sometimes, ordinary words acquire extraordinary meanings.

In earlier essays I have explored how specific words in the Guru Granth, challenge us, and how their meanings are subject to context, time, culture and usage.

I got in this mode of thinking because I have run into many devout Sikh who, like many Christians, look at their respective spiritual writings as literally etched in stone. Even a hint that the same word may have a less literal application and a more metaphoric sense in a particular usage raises hackles. In parsing words the context is all important; and for suggesting this I have, sometimes, run into unexpected flak.

In response I have often pointed to two words to make my point: “Ram” and “Thakur” come to us from Hindu tradition and lexicon. They have also been widely used in the Guru Granth.

And I have encountered not only many Hindus but also a fair number of Sikhs who argue, based on the preponderance of these two and other words in Gurbani that Hinduism and Sikhism are nearly identical belief systems. And that, they insist, makes Sikhi, at best, only a refined commentary on Hinduism.

My counter argument to them that the context is all important in deciphering the intended application of a particular word usually falls on deaf ears.

Many refuse to recognize that in the Guru Granth “Ram” is often used as a name for God, but at times it is a reference to the historical Ram, the man who lost his wife, Sita, to Ravana, waged a war to recover her, demanded that she submit to a trial by fire, and then, at the unsubstantiated
rumor about her possible moral lapse when she was with Ravana, abandoned her and banished her from home. Guru Granth respects the Ram of the divine name, and summarily dismisses the
historical Ram as being of little consequence.

Similarly “the word Thakur, also from Hindu tradition, means many things to many people. When used for Master, it can refer to an all powerful God. But its literal meaning may also point to an earthly master, a tsar perhaps, just the boss where you might work, or in common Hindu usage, more often a stone idol. Guru Granth respects the Thakur that is God and dismisses the
stone idol with nary a nod.

I find the exercise of parsing words for their meaning fascinating and ask you today to join me in another such exploration in the Guru Granth.

As is my wont I was lazily trolling through the Guru Granth one day and came across a line that I had read many times before, but now it hit me like a shot right between the eyes.

Kabir’s (page 1103) says: “Maya kaaran bidya bechhuh janam abirthaa jayee.” Days later, I chanced on a similar idea from Guru Nanak (Guru Granth, p 1245), “Dhrig tina ka jeeviya jin likh likh vechhay naao, khetee ji ki ujrray, khalvarray kia thao” Both citations speak of a life
wasted if spent trading in divine knowledge for money.

I can’t escape the fact that all my adult life that’s exactly what I have done. Teaching, and being paid for it, is how I put food on the table. True that it was nothing philosophically abstruse that I was trading but mostly something as prosaic as human anatomy and it might be good to keep in
mind that Guru Granth is referring to the selling of knowledge of Man and God — their nature and the relationship that defines them, and the religious systems of the world, including Sikhism, that explore such human-divine connections.

Knowledge, though of strikingly different varieties, is what academicians and theologians trade.

Why split hair on such matters? Because Guru Nanak further on in the same hymn, that I cited above (Guru Granth, p 1245), does not deride the intellect but continues to add, “akli sahib sayviyae, akli paaye mman; akli parrh ke bhujiyae, akli keejae daan, Nanak aakhae rahu ehu hore gala(n) saitaan” meaning that through intellect one serves God, in wisdom one earns honor; (says Nanak) this alone is the true path, all else is false.

And then I think of the line that urges us to earn our daily bread honestly and share its proceeds with a worthy cause or with those whose need is greater “Ghall khaaye kitch hathhon deh, Nanak raah pehchhanay saye.” (Guru Granth, p1245).

So then isn’t my research and writing in anatomical sciences honest labor or ghall and, hence, quite alright to pursue, even to sell and make a living? And that’s what I have done for close to half a century.

The world surely expects me to do exactly that. And am I not selling knowledge in the words of Kabir and Guru Nanak, even though my commodity is of a very different sort? In some ways, all knowledge speaks of truth and that’s forever divine. Clearly, teachers, from the dawn of time,
have sold whatever little they knew to needy learners and from it reaped a financial harvest – often puny, other times royal.

But in the past few years I have also been writing aplenty on and about religion, particular my own. Some of these books even sell, and sometimes I might even pocket a minuscule royalty.

But my writing on Sikhi is not meant to put food on the table, nor does it. This writing remains directed to my own education and edification, tracking my own progress along the path, and for my readers’ pleasure, if they so choose.

Am I running afoul of the dictum in the Guru Granth? Should I even put a monetary value on my writing at all?

Let me start by putting forth a snippet of common wisdom that transcends culture, time and geography. Experience tells me that a freebie given to a library or some such organization will likely be read by many. A freebie given to an individual, particularly one who knows the author, will be accepted with a smile and sometimes a thank you, but more often wasted.

I know, for I have distributed loads of free copies of my books but could count on the fingers of one hand with room to spare the number who received a freebie and admitted to having read it.

A persuasive counterargument could be that perhaps the writing was so bad that it didn’t deserve pursuing. But then one would have to read it before arriving at such judgment. There are also others who have paid for and read the writing enough to come back with arguments and points for discussion. And such disagreements, often thoughtful, I see as compliments to my writing.

Religious writing from all traditions continues to sell all over the world, so Kabir or Guru Nanak could not have been talking about this kind of trade.

Step into some history. True that no clean and direct commercial exchange agreement ever existed between the Gurus and the disciples, but history also tells us that when devotees came to the Gurus they brought gifts and offerings and stayed to learn from the Gurus. The Gurus received donations from which they met all expenses, particularly of community related projects.
Would not these offerings then be akin to voluntary reimbursement in lieu of information and knowledge imparted to and received by the devotees?

So what exactly are Kabir and Guru Nanak talking about when they castigate those who sell knowledge?

Experts have always sold their skills in the marketplace, whether in the name of religion, philosophy, poetry, plumbing, science or surgery; this is consistent with ghall khaaye that I cited earlier.

Doesn’t the expert on religious matters -- a priest, pastor, rabbi, imam, brahmin, or gyani/granthi – put food on the table by being paid for his or her religious teaching? Isn’t this consistent with the meaning of ghall or honest labor that is exalted in gurbani? Surely, this couldn’t be what is
being derided in the Guru Granth.

I think the Gurus’ point here is more indirect and, yet, not so difficult to fathom. Could it be that Guru Granth is here talking about the bargain in which the expert -- seller of his skills -- is not being entirely true to his trade?

It is like in the judicial system today when in litigation hired experts -- perhaps dime-a-dozen - - willingly tweak their testimony, knowledge and interpretation towards a desired end. When the nature of the testimony is for sale; when knowledge is hedged towards a desired goal, then
indeed it deserves approbation. The operative but rejected idea here is “tweaking or hedging of information and its interpretation.”

I would say that the finger here is being pointed at dishonest testimony or information being shaded or falsified deliberately in response to the demands of those who might have some control over our purses and our lives.

I illustrate my point on shading and hedging evidence by the example of Ram Rai, the son of a Guru. When Ram Rai deliberately changed a word of gurbani to avoid the possible wrath of the emperor, the Guru immediately banished him and refused to see him again.

Spokespersons for political causes and candidates for office are routinely expected to bend their message to suit the causes that hire them. Then they become like salesmen who will sell anything; it is the commission that counts, they don’t have to personally believe in the product.

Sometimes teachers, too, dumb down their teaching to please the administration or students that are their masters in many ways. I recall that years ago I was under pressure by the higher administration where I worked to modify the contents and organization of our academic program drastically and then to also add a statement that this truncated/modified program offered the same first-rate experience as it did before any changes were made. After much soul searching I responded that as a loyal employee I would design the best possible program to suit the administrative and budgetary constraints on it but I would not sign my name to a statement that the altered program was an equally rich academic experience for students or faculty. The tug of war lasted some time but the administration decided to respect my principled demurral.

Such demands are not a new trend. Such pressures have always existed; experts have often shaded their opinions for kings, tsars and others of far lesser authority – minor minions -- to tell them what they want to hear.

In real life can one always resist such pressures? There are times when anyone will fold.

Listen to the talking heads on television these days. Heed the pandering that the political candidates do to win over special interests. Also, I often wonder how Sikh advisors might have tweaked their opinions on the events of 1984. I am sure many did because people mostly tend to tell their bosses what they think the bosses want to hear.

I think this is the essence of what Kabir and Guru Nanak are telling us in the lines that I picked up today. They are not asking us to turn away from the intellect; in fact they urge us to use it.

The issue really is the selling of one’s integrity -- one’s “soul” that is a person’s core. It is something for which good people will put their heads on the line rather than haggle over its value or price.

That’s why speaking truth to authority is a lesson that flows naturally from the lives of the Gurus and their writings. But more of that another time.

March 5, 2012


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## Randip Singh (May 13, 2012)

IJSingh said:


> I think this is the essence of what Kabir and Guru Nanak are telling us in the lines that I picked up today. They are not asking us to turn away from the intellect; in fact they urge us to use it.
> 
> March 5, 2012



Indeed a point stresssed to me by my Uncle (himself an accompalished philosopher and writer). I strugggled for years with some of the meanings in Bani and he pointed to my head and he said, God has given you a brain, use it. winkingmunda


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 13, 2012)

I J Singh Ji,
With all due respect to your views I would like to share some my personal views with your goodself as
It is true that the true meaning of Gurbanee word is many times is as per context of its use.Considering the two words  RAM and THAKUR in your message I would like to bring to your kind attention that it is also important to understand the form of the word along with context.We generally do not give any consideration to the form of word and this creates further confusion in determining the meaning as per context.

For the word RAM we can certainly see and verify that when this word RAM is used as reference for Human Form of Ram in Hindu reference the word is always RAMu ( with a matra of Aukad) along with conext of some other Human Form reference like RAVANu,SITA or LAKHMAN.
In absence of any equilent context the word RAMu/RAM is for GuR JoTi as these words can not be used for GOD as per grammar of the words.

Secondly it is equally important to understand the application of words for the correct context of Gurbanee also.We should have clear understanding about the reference application of the words RAM and THAKUR .
We can realise that the reference for the word RAM and THAKUR is different.The word RAMu/RAM is for GuR JoTi whereas the word THAKURu/THAKUR is for PRABHJoTi.

It should be interesting to note that GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi are two distinct entities in Gurbanee.We have never considered this so far.

The problem is that we try to use the words in reference for Physical GuRu whereas in Gurbanee the references are not for Phsical GuRu rather the references are for GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi only.

If we give consideration to above then we can understand the context and application of Gurbanee words more correctly.These are some observations worth considering this is what I have understood Gurbanee.

With warm regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## mandemeet (May 13, 2012)

_Respected I.J. Singh ji  __

With all due respect, I want to comment on your thoughts you use to look at Gurbani. What you do as a professional (teacher), has nothing to do with what Guru Nanak says on on 1245,  and Bhagat Kabir on 1103. Their target is Brahmin ( claiming to have divine knowledge) who teaches others, but internally remains empty from spirituality; in other words, he doesn’t practice it; he takes money in return to share the knowledge he has of Vedas and other scriptures. Keeping that in mind, Guru Nanak addresses those ones who write about Akalpurakh to make money; the Guru says it is not to be wise to waste life in arguments or debates as they do while reflecting on scriptures. What is the intellect (to be wise) then, the Guru defines it should be used to serve Akalpurakh and to obtain honor; wisdom is to study about Akalpurakh and realize Akalpurakh and after that this gift should be given with wisdom to others (it is not about charity at all). The Guru concludes that this is the right way; it is a devil way by making money through giving discoursing on scriptures without using that wisdom to realize Akalpurakh and to share that gift with others. What did you do as a teacher is your way of making a living; as per Bhagat Kabir, or Guru Nanak, there is no problem with that; however, sharing with others what you have obtained after studying Sri Guru Granth Sahib and making money of it, is indeed questionable in context of those Gurbani verses. In simple words, imparting divine knowledge should be voluntarily; what priests and others do should also be voluntarily and if it is not, what they do is not a community service  or right path._



IJSingh said:


> THE WORLD OF WORDS
> 
> So then isn’t my research and writing in anatomical sciences honest labor or ghall and, hence, quite alright to pursue, even to sell and make a living? And that’s what I have done for close to half a century.
> 
> ...



_I agree, but in the quoted verses, nothing is said about all general knowledge imparted in colleges or universities; it is about divine knowledge; “ the intellect” word is used in context of realization of the Creator(Naau) and imparting that knowledge to others free; therefore, it is not about the intellect we use to make our living or so on. For example, “Akleen kichai daan “ is misinterpreted all the time; if we  look at the context of the complete verse,  in there,“Daan” is related to “what one acquires about Akalpurakh with wisdom” not  the charity many people generally talk about in context of this verse. Let us look at those Gurbani verses on 1245_

ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁਤਿਨਾਕਾਜੀਵਿਆਜਿਲਿਖਿਲਿਖਿਵੇਚਹਿਨਾਉ॥ 
  Ḏẖarig ṯinā kā jīvi▫ā jė likẖ likẖ vecẖėh nā▫o.   

  Accursed are those ones who write about Akalpurakh and make money out of that. 

  Reference is only to “Naau”. We should keep it in mind while studying the verses that follow 

 ਜਿ = ਜੋਮਨੁੱਖ।ਨਾਉ = (ਤਵੀਤਤੇਜੰਤ੍ਰ-ਮੰਤ੍ਰਆਦਿਕਦੀਸ਼ਕਲਵਿਚ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂਦਾਨਾਮ।
 ਜੋਮਨੁੱਖਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦਾਨਾਮ (ਤਵੀਤਤੇਜੰਤ੍ਰ-ਜੰਤ੍ਰਆਦਿਕਦੀਸ਼ਕਲਵਿਚ) ਵੇਚਦੇਹਨਉਹਨਾਂਦੇਜੀਉਣਨੂੰਲਾਹਨਤਹੈ। 

 ਖੇਤੀਜਿਨਕੀਉਜੜੈਖਲਵਾੜੇਕਿਆਥਾਉ॥ 
  Kẖeṯī jin kī ujṛai kẖalvāṛe ki▫ā thā▫o.   

  Those ones, whose crop is devastated, have nothing for threshing floor. 

  The Guru says that a person, whose spirituality is ruined, what can he use for his spiritual growth? 

 ਕਿਆਥਾਉ = (ਭਾਵ,) ਕੋਈਥਾਂਨਹੀਂ, ਕਿਤੇਨਹੀਂਬਣਦਾ।
 (ਜੇਉਹਬੰਦਗੀਭੀਕਰਦੇਹਨਤਾਂਭੀਉਹਨਾਂਦੀ 'ਨਾਮ' ਵਾਲੀਫ਼ਸਲਇਸਤਰ੍ਹਾਂਨਾਲੋਨਾਲਹੀਉੱਜੜਦੀਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ, ਤੇ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂਦੀਫ਼ਸਲ (ਨਾਲੋਨਾਲ) ਉੱਜੜਦੀਜਾਏਉਹਨਾਂਦਾਖਲਵਾੜਾਕਿੱਥੇਬਣਨਾਹੋਇਆ? (ਭਾਵ, ਉਸਬੰਦਗੀਦਾਚੰਗਾਸਿੱਟਾਨਹੀਂਨਿਕਲਸਕਦਾ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿਉਹਬੰਦਗੀਦੇਸਹੀਰਾਹਤੋਂਖੁੰਝੇਰਹਿੰਦੇਹਨ)। 

 ਸਚੈਸਰਮੈਬਾਹਰੇਅਗੈਲਹਹਿਨਦਾਦਿ॥ 
  Sacẖai sarmai bāhre agai lahėh na ḏāḏ.   

  Without the true hard work, the mortals don’t get appreciation. 

 ਸਰਮ = ਉੱਦਮ।ਦਾਦਿ = ਕਦਰ, ਸ਼ਾਬਾਸ਼ੇ।
 ਸਹੀਮਿਹਨਤਤੋਂਬਿਨਾਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੀਹਜ਼ੂਰੀਵਿਚਭੀਉਹਨਾਂਦੀਕਦਰਨਹੀਂਹੁੰਦੀ। 

 ਅਕਲਿਏਹਨਆਖੀਐਅਕਲਿਗਵਾਈਐਬਾਦਿ॥ 
  Akal eh na ākẖī▫ai akal gavā▫ī▫ai bāḏ.   

   Wisdom is not to waste it in wrangling. 

 ਬਾਦਿ = ਵਿਅਰਥ।
 (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦਾਸਿਮਰਨਕਰਨਾਬੜੀਸੁੰਦਰਅਕਲਦੀਗੱਲਹੈ, ਪਰਤਵੀਤ-ਧਾਗੇਬਣਾਕੇਦੇਣਵਿਚਰੁੱਝਪੈਣਨਾਲਇਹ) ਅਕਲਵਿਅਰਥਗਵਾਲੈਣਾ-ਇਸਨੂੰਅਕਲਨਹੀਂਆਖੀਦਾ। 

 ਅਕਲੀਸਾਹਿਬੁਸੇਵੀਐਅਕਲੀਪਾਈਐਮਾਨੁ॥ 
  Aklī sāhib sevī▫ai aklī pā▫ī▫ai mān.  

  Through intellect (wisdom) Akalpurakh should be served; ( then) through wisdom honor is obtained.  

 ਸੇਵੀਐ = ਸਿਮਰੀਏ।ਮਾਨੁ = ਇੱਜ਼ਤ।
 ਅਕਲਇਹਹੈਕਿਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦਾਸਿਮਰਨਕਰੀਏਤੇਇੱਜ਼ਤਖੱਟੀਏ, 

 ਅਕਲੀਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਕੈਬੁਝੀਐਅਕਲੀਕੀਚੈਦਾਨੁ॥ 
  Aklī paṛĥ kai bujẖī▫ai aklī kīcẖai ḏān. 

  Through studying (scriptures) wisely, Akalpurakh should be realized and through wisdom, that gift should be shared with others.   

  In other word, use your intellect to realize Akalpurakh and use it to impart this knowledge to others; this verse has nothing to do with charity. 

 ਕੀਚੈਦਾਨੁ = (ਉਹਸਮਝ) ਹੋਰਨਾਂਨੂੰਭੀਸਿਖਾਈਏ।
 ਅਕਲਇਹਹੈਕਿ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੀਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹਵਾਲੀਬਾਣੀ) ਪੜ੍ਹੀਏ (ਇਸਦੇਡੂੰਘੇਭੇਤ) ਸਮਝੀਏਤੇਹੋਰਨਾਂਨੂੰਸਮਝਾਈਏ। 

ਨਾਨਕੁਆਖੈਰਾਹੁਏਹੁਹੋਰਿਗਲਾਂਸੈਤਾਨੁ॥੧॥ 
  Nānak ākẖai rāhu ehu hor galāŉ saiṯān. ||1|

  Nanak says: this is the right path; otherwise, all other talk is devilish. 

 ਨਾਨਕਆਖਦਾਹੈਕਿਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀਦਾਸਹੀਰਸਤਾਸਿਰਫ਼ਇਹੀਹੈ, (ਸਿਮਰਨਤੋਂ) ਲਾਂਭਦੀਆਂਗੱਲਾਂ (ਦੱਸਣਵਾਲਾ) ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨਹੈ॥੧
 
 This is the way I look at Gurbani; no claim what so ever.



> _Parkash S Bagga ji says:
> 
> _ _ Secondly it is equally important to understand the application of words for the correct context of Gurbanee also.We should have clear understanding about the reference application of the words RAM and THAKUR .
> 
> ...


 _
Respected Parkash Singh ji,_
_Your statement carries weight; however, you take your support away after defining the idea half way; that is why many persons on this site don’t understand what you talk about. Let me complete what you have left incomplete_

_ You say: We can realise that the reference for the word RAM and THAKUR is different.The word RAMu/RAM is for GuR JoTi whereas the word THAKURu/THAKUR is for PRABHJoTi_

_You should have also added to it_
_Gur jyoti works through the humans for guidance; Prabh  jyoti permeates in all and pervades all over, still the origin of Gur jyoti  is Prabh jyoti/ Ikkankar_

_Let me know if I have understood you?_

_With regards_
_Mandemeet_


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 14, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
Thank you for your views.You have rightly pointed out so but I have just been looking for a response like yours in this case so that a clear understanding can be developed regarding such very very important context of Gurbanee.
I may not be always correct but something can be always a subject of positive sharing of views to conclude at.

My response to your views is as under

In fact  GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi are interconnected .
Actually GuR JoTi  is creation from a SINGLE WORD GuRoo and Prabh JoTi is expansion of GuR JoTi only.
You can observe that GuR JoTi is represented as GuRoo-GuR and Prabh JoTi as GuRu-GuR.
So all the references like RAM.HARi GoBIND,GOPAL,THAKUR,SADH,SANT...So on are directed either for GuR JoTi or For PRABh JoTi.

There is no word like IKKANKAR in SGGA but it is EKANKAARu/EKANKAAR.

Here is the significance of grammar of Gurbanee words as per Matra of Aukad/Dukakd or Without Matra under last letter of Gurbanee words.

I would look forward to your views constantly.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 14, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
I would like to bring a point for your consideration and your views on that.
As I understand that GuRoo in Gurbanee is being refered as THE WORD as
SABADu.
In fact we should try yo understand Gurbanee messages with reference to THE WORD ..SABADu  as GuRoo then I think you may get to know something what I want to 
tell.
We  generally understand Gurbanee with reference to Some Physical GuRoo.This probably makes the difference.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## mandemeet (May 14, 2012)

_Respected Parkash Singh ji,_ _

Thank for your response._

_Ikkankar word I used to identify our Guru’s given expression of Wahiguru (you may right it Wahiguroo) on 276, I agree fully with you that it is there as Ekankar not ikkankar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib;_

*ਸਦਾਸਦਾਇਕੁਏਕੰਕਾਰ॥
Saḏā saḏā ik ekankār  276* 

_Now look how the Guru defines Ekkankaar as Ikk_

*ਕਈਕੋਟਿਖਾਣੀਅਰੁਖੰਡ॥ 
ਕਈਕੋਟਿਅਕਾਸਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ॥ 
ਕਈਕੋਟਿਹੋਏਅਵਤਾਰ॥ 
ਕਈਜੁਗਤਿਕੀਨੋਬਿਸਥਾਰ॥ 
ਕਈਬਾਰਪਸਰਿਓਪਾਸਾਰ॥ 
ਸਦਾਸਦਾਇਕੁਏਕੰਕਾਰ॥ 
ਕਈਕੋਟਿਕੀਨੇਬਹੁਭਾਤਿ॥ 
ਪ੍ਰਭਤੇਹੋਏਪ੍ਰਭਮਾਹਿਸਮਾਤਿ॥ 
ਤਾਕਾਅੰਤੁਨਜਾਨੈਕੋਇ॥ 
ਆਪੇਆਪਿਨਾਨਕਪ੍ਰਭੁਸੋਇ॥੭॥ 
Ka▫ī kot kẖāṇī ar kẖand.   
Ka▫ī kot akās barahmand.   
Ka▫ī kot ho▫e avṯār.   
Ka▫ī jugaṯ kīno bisthār.   
Ka▫ī bār pasri▫o pāsār.   
Saḏā saḏā ik ekankār.   
Ka▫ī kot kīne baho bẖāṯ.   
Parabẖ ṯe ho▫e parabẖ māhi samāṯ.   
Ŧā kā anṯ na jānai ko▫e.   
Āpe āp Nānak parabẖ so▫e. ||7||   * 

There are many millions of creations and regions; there are many millions the skies and the solar systems. There have been many millions of avtaras. Almighty has expended His creation in many ways .Many times Prabh expended His expansion but Prabh ever remains the one. Many millions are created in various forms; they emanate from Prabh (“Ekkankaar” who is IKK) and into Him they merge. Nobody can describe Prabh’s limit; Nanak says that Prabh is all Himself

ਖਾਣੀ = ਸਾਰੇਜਗਤ-ਜੀਵਾਂਦੀਉਤਪੱਤੀਦੇਚਾਰਵਸੀਲੇ (ਖਾਣਾਂ) ਮੰਨੇਗਏਹਨ, "ਅੰਡਜ", ਅੰਡੇਤੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਣਜੀਵ; "ਜੇਰਜ", ਜਿਓਰਤੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਣਵਾਲੇ; "ਸੇਤਜ" ਮੁੜ੍ਹਕੇਤੋਂਅਤੇ "ਉਤਭੁਜ", ਪਾਣੀਦੀਰਾਹੀਂਧਰਤੀਵਿਚੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਣਵਾਲੇ।ਅਰੁ = ਅਤੇ।ਖੰਡ = ਸਾਰੀਧਰਤੀਦੇਨੌਹਿੱਸੇਜਾਂਨੌਖੰਡਮੰਨੇਗਏਹਨ।ਕਈਜੁਗਤਿ =ਕਈਜੁਗਤੀਆਂਨਾਲ।ਪਸਰਿਓ = ਖਿਲਾਰਿਆਹੈ।ਪਾਸਾਰ = {Skt. प्रसारः} ਖਿਲਾਰਾ।ਭਾਤਿ = ਕਿਸਮ।ਸਮਾਤਿ = ਲੀਨਹੋਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।ਅਵਤਾਰ = ਪੈਦਾਕੀਤੇਹੋਏਜੀਵ।੭।

(ਧਰਤੀਦੇਨੌ) ਖੰਡਾਂ (ਚਹੁੰਆਂ) ਖਾਣੀਆਂਦੀਰਾਹੀਂਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਜੀਵਉਤਪੰਨਹੋਏਹਨ, ਸਾਰੇਆਕਾਸ਼ਾਂਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾਂਵਿਚਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਜੀਵਹਨ; ਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਪੈਦਾਹੋਰਹੇਹਨ; ਕਈਤਰੀਕਿਆਂਨਾਲਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੇਜਗਤਦੀਰਚਨਾਕੀਤੀਹੈ; (ਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੇ) ਕਈਵਾਰੀਜਗਤ-ਰਚਨਾਕੀਤੀਹੈ, (ਮੁੜਇਸਨੂੰਸਮੇਟਕੇ) ਸਦਾ-ਇਕਆਪਹੀਹੋਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ; ਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੇਕਈਕਿਸਮਾਂਦੇਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਜੀਵਪੈਦਾਕੀਤੇਹੋਏਹਨ, ਜੋਪ੍ਰਭੂਤੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਕੇਫਿਰਪ੍ਰਭੂਵਿਚਲੀਨਹੋਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।ਉਸਪ੍ਰਭੂਦਾਅੰਤਕੋਈਬੰਦਾਨਹੀਂਜਾਣਦਾ; (ਕਿਉਂਕਿ) ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! ਉਹਪ੍ਰਭੂ (ਆਪਣੇਵਰਗਾ) ਆਪਹੀਆਪਹੈ।੭।

_Above verses strongly connect the dots you are trying to put, but slightly differently; Gur Jyoti works through human beings and Prabh jyoti is pervading, but the origin is *“Ikk”,* what? Ekankaar/Prabh. Kindly also note it down, there is no ounkud after R of Ekankaar; I mean, it is not Ekankaar (u) but  Ekkanakar. Using Ikk with Ekankaar without ounkud, the Guru has expressed the oneness of Prabh/ Wahiguru, What you are saying is also explained by the Guru ( also can be called Gur Jyoti) to make us understand how Akalpurakh exists, but it is a little different than what you say. That is another reason, you don’t see “Prabh Jyoti and Gur Jyoti in Sri Guru Granth Sahib many times.There is not many entities; the waves of the source cannot divide the source;  you should not question oneness of “ Ekankaar” whom the Guru addressed as “Ikk”, it is made clear once for all that Prabh is one who has creating power,  destroying power, cherishing power, pervading power and guiding power; I am taking what is  defined in above verses;  I feel you forget that water and its rising wave are  or cannot be not different;  to guide us, it is His wave “Gurjyoti,” and Prabh jyoti contains Gurjyoti as well, because the source is the same; you should bear this in your mind; let us see how  Ekankaar ( Ikk) exists; see on  275_

*ਪਸਰਿਓਆਪਿਹੋਇਅਨਤਤਰੰਗ॥
Pasri▫o āp ho▫e anaṯ ṯarang *
Ekankaar is expended in endless waves

_Whenever you define these words, you must keep in mind that it only “Ekankaar” who is IKK not two or three; that is why Guru Nanak dismisses three enteritis of Hinduism in Japji on 7. Let me give another example to understand its subtlety. There is soil, from soil, pots are made and there is the soil that creates lives by providing necessary needs for the seeds; still, it remains the “soil” None is there but Ekkankaar. There is no duality. If Gur Jyoti is referred, it is Akalpurakh, when Prabh Jyoti is referred, it is Akalpurakh. Our Gurus and Bhagatas have led us to Ekkankar who is Ikk (one) Kindly read on 36 for example_

*ਹਰਿਇਕੋਦਾਤਾਵਰਤਦਾਦੂਜਾਅਵਰੁਨਕੋਇ॥
Har iko ḏāṯā varaṯḏā ḏūjā avar na ko▫e. *
Har, the Giver, is pervading; there is none other but Har.

_If you look at an Ashtpadee of Guru Amar Das on 832 start with

*“*_*ਜਗੁਕਊਆਮੁਖਿਚੁੰਚਗਿਆਨੁ॥“. 
Jag ka▫ū▫ā mukẖ cẖuncẖ gi▫ān. *
Grammar exceptions about Naam (u), are made in a big way.There are indeed pairs but there is more than pairs, look at 180

*ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਉ ॥
Nimakẖ nimakẖ har har har ḏẖi▫ā▫o.*

 _I suggest you to look it carefully every word at Ashtpadee on 832; next time I will try to interpret it if you feel so. I agree with you that what you have been saying carries weight but that alone doesn’t define totality of our Guru teachings._

With Regards
mandemeet


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (May 14, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
I certainly appreciate your understanding and I feel you are getting to my points.
In fact I write nothing out of Gurbanee.I dont believe in very very long interpretations of Gurbanee as I feel that the more we eloborate the more we commit mistakes in the interpretation.I want to understand the message of Gurbanee as per words as you are enumerating.

If we can understand the grammar of the words IK and EK then I think we can have better understanding of using these words.Both these words are Numerical Adjectives and both these words you may Notice in SINGULAR or PLURAL form as IKu /IK and EKu/EK and also in pair as <IKu.Iku> and <EKu.EKu> These convey very important message of Gurbanee
So in Banee Sukhmani we clearly get EKANKAAR as IKu EKANKAAR. (not as IKK).
Most of the times you can find the word EKANKAARu as SINGULAR M/G thru out Gurbanee.

You will appreciate a fact of Gurbanee that most of the Gurbanee understanding is related to knowing of the meanings of SINGULAR words. particularly for the words with Matra of Aukad/DULAKAD under last letter of words and Matra of Sihari and Biharee with last letter of words.
You may notice many of us do not consider the role of these matras in directing the meanings to the Gurbanee words.So I think this is most crucial for clear understanding of Gurbanee.

Looking forward to your further views

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 14, 2012)

mandemeet said:


> _Respected Parkash Singh ji,_
> 
> _Thank for your response._
> 
> ...


 
From SGGS we can learn that Gurbanee is being refered as SABAD TARANG that is the waves of Divine words.
If you can understand above that you can clearly understand the use of pair words <Hari.HARi> as long  chain to indicate the Wave Nature of the Divine word. as NAAMu-NAAM

HaRi HARi HARi  means HARi as <HARi.HARi> here the first word is addressed for Prabhu  and the pair of the word HARi as NAAMu of  Prabhu.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 14, 2012)

mandemeet said:


> _Respected Parkash Singh ji,_
> 
> _Thank for your response._
> 
> ...


 
This I have clrified you in a separate post.
Once again I fully appreciate your understanding.We may deviate sightly here and there that is fine but we should not be deviating from the core spritual messages of Gurbanee related to NAAMu.
Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## mandemeet (May 14, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> So in Banee Sukhmani we clearly get EKANKAAR as IKu EKANKAAR. (not as IKK).
> Most of the times you can find the word EKANKAARu as SINGULAR M/G thru out Gurbanee.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



_Respected Parkash Singh ji,
_
_Ikk or Iku, the meaning is the same; actually your use of “U”  ruins it; there is no way we can write *ਇਕੁ * in Roman. Have you heard Babu Singh; you see how u is pronounced in Babu; use of U is not right either. You must look at the meaning of *ਇਕੁ  *as number that conveys oneness, like "Tuhada ikk (Iku) gun changa hai ke tusin shanseel  ho (you have a quality of remaining tolerant). Sometimes this uonkud is  used to just give stress. Here in the quote that stress is well explained with ounkud. I feel, you are restricting  yourself on this by ignoring its meaning. Also by the way, Gurbani stresses on  hearing Naam/Prabh/ praise of Har as well; when we hear* ਇਕੁ*    , we don’t feel uonkud pronounced. It is never done._

_ Let us assume, I am wrong and you are right, interpret the quote that contains* ਇਕੁ*   as per your observation of grammar of this word; if you come up with different meaning, I will look at that. Remember, I referred an ashtpadee at 832, here is one verse from that, which rules out your stand on specific forms of the word to be correct all the time_

_On 832_

_ਸਤਿਗੁਰਸੇਵਿਨਾਮੁਵਸੈਮਨਿਚੀਤਿ॥ 
ਗੁਰੁਭੇਟੇਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਚੇਤਾਵੈਬਿਨੁਨਾਵੈਹੋਰਝੂਠੁਪਰੀਤਿ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ _
_Saṯgur sev nām vasai man cẖīṯ.   
Gur bẖete har nām cẖeṯāvai bin nāvai hor jẖūṯẖ parīṯ. ||1|| rahā▫o.   
_
_By serving  Satiguru, Naam abides in the heart; if  the Guru is met, he makes the seeker to utter  Har Naam; without Har’s Name, other love is false. Pause_

_First verse says that through Satiguru Naam abides in the heart.
_
_Second verse says that when the Guru is met, he makes the seeker to do what? To utter Har Naam
_
_The Guru continues addressing Naam _
_The second part of this verse says that without Har’s name, all other love is false._
_Now the Guru  refers to Naam as the”Name” of Har he already advocated._
_This Ashatpadee doesn’t restrict words to their forms, kindly read the entire ashatpadee, you will realize that._

_Kindly let me know why the Guru says First Naam, then Har Naam and then without “Name”?_
_With regards
mandemeet__
_


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## mandemeet (May 14, 2012)

*Respected Parkash Singh ji*
*I feel you have some valid points to be taken seriously, but you are also become stagnant in understanding Gurbani. When the words you point out to be reconsidered as vital in understanding Gurbani, you forget how those words are also used with exceptions. I agree with you and I also strongly disagree with you when with your strict rule, it becomes utterly hard to understand Gurbani.*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> *
> ਨਿਮਖ**ਨਿਮਖ**ਹਰਿ**ਹਰਿ**ਹਰਿ**ਧਿਆਉ**॥*
> *Nimakẖ nimakẖ har har har ḏẖi▫ā▫o.*
> HaRi HARi HARi means HARi as <HARi.HARi> here the first word is addressed for Prabhu and the pair of the word HARi as NAAMu of Prabhu."



*Alright, why below Har Har is also looked as Har nectar that Har becomes? (I refer to Japji to understand this verse)

*
*ਹਰਿ**ਹਰਿ*ਹਰਿਰਸੁਆਪਿਹੈਆਪੇਹਰਿਰਸੁਹੋਇ॥
Har har har ras āp hai āpe har ras ho▫e.

ਆਪੇਹਰਿਰਸੁਹੋਇ, look at this.


*Let me give another example how the Guru takes exception from restricting words

*
*On 41*
ਹਉਸਤਿਗੁਰਵਿਟਹੁਵਾਰਿਆਜਿਨਿ*ਹਰਿ**ਪ੍ਰਭ*ੁਦੀਆਦਿਖਾਇ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
Ha▫o saṯgur vitahu vāri▫ā jin har parabẖ ḏī▫ā ḏikẖā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
*Har Prabh (with ounkud)

*
On 95
*ਹਰਿ**ਪ੍ਰਭ*ਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰਸੁਆਮੀਮਿਲਿਸਤਿਗੁਰਹਰਿਰਸੁਕੀਚੈਜੀਉ॥੧॥
Har parabẖ agam agocẖar su▫āmī mil saṯgur har ras kīcẖai jī▫o. ||1||
*Har Prabh (without ounkud)

*
*In both above verses, Har Prabh and Har Prabh(u) are used for the same entity. Why?

*


prakash.s.bagga said:


> *
> *From Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we can learn that Gurbanee is being refered as SABAD TARANG that is the waves of Divine words"



*Kindly give me example from Sri Guru Granth Sahib after leaving an example of Bhatt Ballya’s verse (on 1404) because that doesn’t state what you say.

*


prakash.s.bagga said:


> *
> *The Source of GuR JOTi and Prabh JoTi is A SINGLE WORD ..GuRoo itself.Once you can understand this your above Quotes should become more clear.



*Kindly prove it through Gurbani quotes, a single quote will do.

*


prakash.s.bagga said:


> *
> *Secondly How many times you find AKALPURAKH word in Gurbanee.



*I have used Akalpurakh for Prabh, you say Akalpurakh is not used often in Gurbani, but you forget that the words on which you are building your understanding do  not exist exactly in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; for example Prabh jyoti and Gur  jyoti  are not used to define Ekkankar/Akalpurakh/Prabh at all. Yes, Gur jyoti is referred in context of Human Gurus transferring their jyoti as a Guru to another (1409). You should give examples from Gurbani as I give because you say what you say is all from Gurbani. What I am saying that you are splitting hair; it doesn’t matter how many times “Akalpurakh” is used for Prabh, does it?.  Sir,You don’t pick on words and lower their significance in context of other words; you should focus on what is being discussed.

*


prakash.s.bagga said:


> This word is also in SINGULAR As AKALPURAHu



*NO sir, it is also used without ounkud, look on 212*

*ਅਕਾਲ**ਪੁਰਖ*ਅਗਾਧਿਬੋਧ॥
Akāl purakẖ agāḏẖ boḏẖ




prakash.s.bagga said:


> Therefore AKALPURAKHu is not reference for any separate entity than GuR ?Prabhu JoTi itself;"



*With respect, I disagree. Akalpurakh is used in context of Prabh. Prabh Jyoti is not found defined as you claim in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, if it does, kindly give me a quote, I will love to see that.*
*
With regards,
mandemeet
*


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (May 15, 2012)

mandemeet said:


> *Respected Parkash Singh ji*
> *I feel you have some valid points to be taken seriously, but you are also become stagnant in understanding Gurbani. When the words you point out to be reconsidered as vital in understanding Gurbani, you forget how those words are also used with exceptions. I agree with you and I also strongly disagree with you when with your strict rule, it becomes utterly hard to understand Gurbani.*
> 
> 
> ...


 
The references GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi are self defined only you are required to know the meaning of the word JoTi.Then you can define yourself.

I may bring to your kind attention that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is SINGLE ULTIMATE or SUPREME entity and that entity is PRABHu.This entity is well defined.
You should look for this entity.This is very important. In fact we should develop the understanding of Gurbanee w.r.t this Ultmate Entity PRABHu only.

Secondly I certainly agree that Akalpurakh is the reference for Prabh so the Akalpurakhu is the reference for Prabhu .This is because Prabhu and Prabh are two entities for Prabh JoTi

Thanks for your nice interaction.Hope to continue with your goodself.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 15, 2012)

mandemeet said:


> _Respected Parkash Singh ji,_
> 
> _Ikk or Iku, the meaning is the same; actually your use of “U” ruins it; there is no way we can write *ਇਕੁ *in Roman. Have you heard Babu Singh; you see how u is pronounced in Babu; use of U is not right either. You must look at the meaning of *ਇਕੁ *as number that conveys oneness, like "Tuhada ikk (Iku) gun changa hai ke tusin shanseel ho (you have a quality of remaining tolerant). Sometimes this uonkud is used to just give stress. Here in the quote that stress is well explained with ounkud. I feel, you are restricting yourself on this by ignoring its meaning. Also by the way, Gurbani stresses on hearing Naam/Prabh/ praise of Har as well; when we hear* ਇਕੁ* , we don’t feel uonkud pronounced. It is never done._
> 
> ...


 
What about the word EKu/EK in Gurbanee..You compare the quotes in Gurbanee with words IKu./Ik and EKu/EK I am sure you are going to realise something different.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## mandemeet (May 16, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> The references GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi are self defined only you are required to know the meaning of the word JoTi.Then you can define yourself.



*Respected Parkash Singh jio*
*Why only I am required? Isn’t it you who have brought this? Bringing in this new approach and running away is not right. Kindly do not run away from your responsibility; you say what you say is out of Gurbani; kindly define it as per Gurbani. I have searched and haven’t found these words to define what you are talking about. If I am ignorant, you must help me.
*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> “I may bring to your kind attention that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is SINGLE ULTIMATE or SUPREME entity and that entity is PRABHu.This entity is well defined.”



*I never said opposite to this statement of yours on this site in any way rather I stressed on this.

*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> You should look for this entity.This is very important. In fact we should develop the understanding of Gurbanee w.r.t this Ultmate Entity PRABHu only.



*That is what I have been saying; it is you who are giving different names of Prabh’s waves and create duality. *



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> Secondly I certainly agree that Akalpurakh is the reference for Prabh so the Akalpurakhu is the reference for Prabhu .This is because Prabhu and Prabh are two entities for Prabh JoTi”



*I am glad you have agreed, but you were saying,” how many times “Akalpurakh” is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib” and I questioned the validity of your question. You should have realized that but you haven’t.*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> Thanks for your nice interaction.Hope to continue with your goodself.



*Sir, how can I do that when you respond to my posts in your own statements lacking any proof from Gurbani? Your purpose of bringing this new approach is to share with others and define what others miss. You are not doing that. Instead, you tell,” It is not Ikk, it is Iku” and never take a responsibility to define the difference of Iku and Ikk as per Gurbani. Look at your response below:

*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> ”What about the word EKu/EK in Gurbanee..You compare the quotes in Gurbanee with words IKu./Ik and EKu/EK I am sure you are going to realise something different.”



*I have looked at it and I asked you to define the separate meaning of Iku, Ik, because I don’t find it and you are not giving it, why not? What you are saying if that affects the meaning, you should do that as you have explained in your post earlier that in the use of “Har Har Har” through one Har, the Guru means “ the name of Har is “Har Har”. I agreed. I have noticed that you question Gurbani interpreters for their negligence in recognizing Grammar while interpreting Gurbani; unfortunately, you do not bring up your interpretation that can be compared with their negligence. If I just say, “ it is there, you find it, it is there, you find it” will you call it a good interaction”?*
*I commented on your post first time by noticing that while explaining something you pull back; while interacting with me, you are doing the same thing. Look at my posts and see how I bring some points to your attention with Gurbani quotes and then look at your reactions; they are “simple your own statements lacking support from Gurbani or there is questioning about not much used word “Akalpurakh” or “it is Iku not Ikk  Let me do one more effort how Iku (as you like to write) conveys the meaning of one*

*On 437*
 ਆਦਿਪੁਰਖਿ*ਇਕ*ੁਚਲਤੁਦਿਖਾਇਆਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਸੋਈ॥
 Āḏ purakẖ ik cẖalaṯ ḏikẖā▫i▫ā jah ḏekẖā ṯah so▫ī.

 ਆਦਿਪੁਰਖਿ   Akalpurakh  NE, let me use the word you like to use Prabh  Ne

*ਇਕ* ੁ   =  one, why it means one, the next word will prove it

 ਚਲਤੁ    =  play (singular as t has ounkud at the end)

 ਦਿਖਾਇਆ  = is shown (verb for singular subject; if it were for many, it would have been “dikhaye” 

 ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹ  =  where I see

 ਤਹਸੋਈ   He  (who? Aad Purakh)

*ਇਕ* ੁ Iku  has conveyed meaning of one



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> It would be better if we know what we is the entity we talk about.?



*We talk about  Ekkankar *



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> If you can let me know about your understanding about the grammar of Gurbanee words with and without matra of Aukad under last letter then it would be easy for me to clarify you any point.
> You can post your understanding about the complete grammar of the word HARi.  On hearing your grammatical understanding of the word HARi I can share to the above point



*I look at Har (you write Hari), as Ekankaar; first of all, you kindly answer the questions. Ounkud makes the word singular but sometimes, its use appears to be exception. Without Ounkud, the word is plural; again there is exception 

*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> As I understand HARiPRABh and HARiPRABh(u) are two different entities



*As I see them in context of the entire shabda, they are no different entities; kindly prove it by interpreting the verses
*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> Kindly give me example from Sri Guru Granth Sahib after leaving an example of Bhatt Ballya’s verse (on 1404) because that doesn’t state what you say.
> Why this should be left aside.? Any reason””



*Kindly read carefully; I explained it already;  that verse is said in context of fourth and fifth Guru (human Guru not in the way you express Gurjyoti*
*Here it is*

*ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿਗੁਰੂਜਗਤਾਰਨਕਉ**ਗੁਰ**ਜੋਤਿਅਰਜੁਨਮਾਹਿਧਰੀ॥੪॥
Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||* 
*What your specific useful observation I see in Gurbani, I applaud that, but other things you are saying are hard to find in Gurbani as I have tried and you are not helping either this ignorant person.*

*With warm regards
mandemeet
*


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 16, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
Really it is very nice to go thru your post.Now I should be in a position to give answer to the best of my understanding. First of all I start with the GuR JoTi.

What is GuR JoTi this is nowhere defined in Gurbanee the way any one may think.One has to get its meaning from the knowkedge of the meanings of the word..
GuR......This is a Plural Mascu Gender  or SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER.
           So GuR is an entity to be refered as JOTi.The word JoTi is SINGULAR FEMININE
           Gender and it is the reference for a WAVE

           So one can understand the meaning of GuR JOTi as A SINGLE WAVE being 
           refered as GuR.
           This GuR JoTi ialso appears in several Quotes in Gurbanee as GuRoo_GuR
           (Here the word GuRoo is GuR with matra of Dulakad under letter R)

            Therefore GuR is A SINGLE WAVE of the WORD GuRoo.
            Let me know how you get this point of mine or if there is any variation
            we can clarify .Then I go ahead.

            Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 16, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
Understanding the use of words IK and EK as per grammar.
.....................................................................................

The words IK and EK both are Numerical Adjectives .These words are used to represent the entity in Number/Numbers.
The general grammar of these words is as under.

The word IK.........
As Iku................Singular and Masculine Gender

As IK...................PLURALand MASCULINE GENDER or
SINGULAR as FEMININE GENDER.

IKO.....................SINGULAR(pair of two Singular word)

Simialarly wehave same grammar for the word EK as

EKu.........................SINGULARand MASCULINE GENDER
EK............................PLURAL For MASCULINE GENDER and
SINGULAR for FEMININE GENDER
EKO.........................SINGULAR (pair of two Singular word)

Apart from these we also come across IKAA and EKAA both these words are SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER.

Making observations of the above pattern of words in application one can see that
SingularM/G word is used for M/G reference and SINGULAR F/G words are used for F/F reference.

Second entity is refered by SINGULAR M/G and PLURAL M/G words.

The above are general observations but exceptions are always there in any application We can take exceptions separately)

The above pattern is applicable with alost all Noun words based on the matra of Aukad /Dulakad or without Matra under last letter.

I shall post few quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as per above pattern to understand the meaing therefrom.
In the meantime I can tell you my general understanding othe meaning of the words IK and EK
The work IK is used to refer an entity as "only and specific ONE ("Out of Many specifics)

The word EK is used to refer the entity as "Any ONE " (Out of Many ones)

We shall share this with Quotes.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 16, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
We can see How the entity is Different for SIngular and Plural words like Prabhu and Prabh.

The word Prabhu is SINGULAR M/G and PRABH is PLURAL M/G
Considering that these SINGULAR and Plural words are for A Wave then we can see that
the Word PRABhu Singular M/G is the reference for A SINGLE WORD of the WAVE and
The Word PRABH PLURAL M/G  is the reference for the complete WAVE

So we have two entities in Gurbanee for any WAVE of the Divine Word as

1...Singular m/G ..............for the Single word of the WAVE and

2...PLURAL m/G...............For the complete WAve of the word 

OR

If we consider the use of words as per Gender even  then

!...Singular m/G ..............For the single word of the WAVE and

2...SINGULAR f/G.............For the complete WAVE

You can apply this patttern of Grammar for any NOUN word in Gurbanee.

In view of above consideration we can see the reference meanings of the words 
HARi PRABHu and HARi PRABH

Now a very important observation is that the word HARi is a very very special for its grammar consideration.And that consideration is that this is the onlly(As I know) word which is SINGULAR as well as PLURAL for masculine or feminine genders.
Whereas all other Noun words for Singular have a matra of Aukad and Plural without Matra of Aukad under its last word)

You prefer to write this word as HAR whereas I write as HAR(i) to indicate the matra of Sihahi with its last letter.How far your way of writing this word  is justified I can not understand.

If you follow the same style of avoiding the matra of Aukad how one should be able to understand the entity.Since you are eliminating the matra of Aukad from Noun words that is why you cant make out the difference in the references of two entities as per matra..
You can notice the application of the words with Matra of AUKAD and Without AUKAD as

1....GuRu SATi GuRu   and GuR SATiGuR    

2...GuRu Narayanu    and GuR Narayan

3...GuRu Gobindu       and GuR Gobind

4...GuRu NANAKu        and GuR NANAK

The above pattern clearly indicates that the words are properly used as per Gender of the reference as well as entity.

Now if you eliminate and dont take into consideration oft he matra of Aukad in relation of entity you are going to say that both entities are same.But if the purpose of matra of Aukad is understood then understanding is different.This is what makes the difference.

Looking forward to your response.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 16, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,

We can look the following Quotes carefully for understanding the entity/entitis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as

ਥਿਤੀ ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਪੂਰਿਆ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਿਰਜਨਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ pp296

The word EKKANKAAR is with a Matra of Aukad and is SINGULAR M/G whereas the word EKKANKAAR is without AUKAD and is PLURAL M/G.

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ pp294

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ pp905

ਭੋਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਹੰਸੁ ਸਚੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਹ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੫॥ pp227

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਗੁਣੀ ਸਾਚਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ pp905

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਹਰਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਏਕੋ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਬਾਈ ॥ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੁ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 930}

Now you can see the most significant reference is the word with matra of AUKAD EKKANKAR(u).
It is EKKANKAR(u)  as PRABhu SINLE ULTIMATE ENTITY IN SGGS.............................................

EKKANKAR is the PLURAL entity of EKKANKARu. gurbanee connects us with the SINGULAY ULTIMATE entity .
thru PLURAL entity  of the same reference.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 16, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
Here are few Gurbanee Quotes for the reference as TARANG(WAVES)

ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸੂਚੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ
pp354

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਜਪਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਕਾਲੁ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
pp367
ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਫਲ ਮੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ
pp848

॥ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਜਪਿਆ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਸਕਿਆ ॥ ਗੋਬਿਦੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਏ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਓ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਇਆ ॥੪॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 995}

ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮੰਗਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥੭॥
pp1042

ਪਸਰਿਓ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ॥ ਲਖੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਰੰਗ 

pp275

The above quotes sufficienly indicate the way one should understand Gurbanee.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## mandemeet (May 17, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> "Mandemeet ji Really it is very nice to go thru your post.Now I should be in a position to give answer to the best of my understanding. First of all I start with the GuR JoTi.
> What is GuR JoTi this is nowhere defined in Gurbanee the way any one may think.One has to get its meaning from the knowkedge of the meanings of the word..
> GuR......This is a Plural Mascu Gender or SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER”.



*Respected Parkash Singh ji,*

*I appreciate your efforts to address these words. Let us remove confusion first; if a word is singular Masculine gender, how it can be singular feminine gender too. Your this statement clearly is a double statement totally away from specific category of a word; that will also make its application broad not restricted. Let me make my expression simpler; a word, which is described by a grammarian as Plural Masculine gender, can also be used as Singular feminine; that is what you mean? If so, then most important factor in understanding the word is its “CONTEXT” not forms after all.*
*I would appreciate if you give examples of Gur as Singular Musculine and Gur as Singular feminine. Kindly do not ignore this request.*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> So GuR is an entity to be refered as JOTi.The word JoTi is SINGULAR FEMININE
> Gender and it is the reference for a WAVE”



*I can agree with that.*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> So one can understand the meaning of GuR JOTi as A SINGLE WAVE being refered as GuR.”



*A single wave of Gurjoti is called a single wave; I can agree with that too, but what is the origin of that single wave? You must define that too.*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> ”This GuR JoTi ialso appears in several Quotes in Gurbanee as GuRoo_GuR (Here the word GuRoo is GuR with matra of Dulakad under letter R)”



*You mean where ever Guroo Gur words in a pair are used together in Gurbani, they refer to Gurjoti, am I write in understanding you?, If so, what is the difference between Gur (u) Gur(u) as a piar and Guroo Gur as a piar?*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> ”Therefore GuR is A SINGLE WAVE of the WORD GuRoo.”



*When you say “a single way” of the word Guroo; you should also define what is “Guroo” is it referred to a Wave or many waves? If it is "many waves", what is its origin?*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> ”Let me know how you get this point of mine or if there is any variation we can clarify .Then I go ahead”.



*Kindly answer my questions and then also proceed.*
*With Regards *
*mandemeet*


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## mandemeet (May 17, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> MANDEMEET Ji,
> Understanding the use of words IK and EK as per grammar.
> The words IK and EK both are Numerical Adjectives .These words are used to represent the entity in Number/Numbers.
> The general grammar of these words is as under.
> ...



*Without giving quotes, which can define eku iku ikk and other words, grammatical difference in their use doesn’t become clear. You should have selected some quotes to define their difference right here. What you have done is grammar structure of the words without application. It is like defining a noun without an example. This is the flaw in your explanation I have observed. Whenever, time comes to explain them with Gurbani quotes, you simply say you will give quotes. Why to put it off ?  Shouldn’t we discuss one point before we proceed to the next point? I feel that will make easier to understand this new approach. I have defined the meaning of Ik(u); I have proved how one number is conveyed through Iku. You can prove my explanation incorrect with quote, I shall take it honorably. 

*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> MANDEMEET Ji,
> We can see How the entity is Different for SIngular and Plural words like Prabhu and Prabh.
> 
> The word Prabhu is SINGULAR M/G and PRABH is PLURAL M/G Considering that these SINGULAR and Plural words are for A Wave then we can see that the Word PRABhu Singular M/G is the reference for A SINGLE WORD of the WAVE and The Word PRABH PLURAL M/G is the reference for the complete WAVE



*A wave but single wave;  then a wave but complete*
*Obviously the first wave is incomplete and the second is complete. The quotes about Har Prabhu and Har Prabh, I gave you earlier, do not fit in this explanation; that is the problem. If you can apply this explanation in those quotes, it will be better to understand it*.



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> So we have two entities in Gurbanee for any WAVE of the Divine Word as
> 1...Singular m/G ..............for the Single word of the WAVE and
> 2...PLURAL m/G...............For the complete WAve of the word



*What is the difference between a wave and a complete wave? Why?*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> If we consider the use of words as per Gender even then
> !...Singular m/G ..............For the single word of the WAVE and
> 2...SINGULAR f/G.............For the complete WAVE



*This appears “not applicable in the quotes I gave containing Har Prabhu and Har Prabh because the  meaning is the same. If it is not, prove otherwise with quote, please.*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> You can apply this patttern of Grammar for any NOUN word in Gurbanee.
> In view of above consideration we can see the reference meanings of the words
> HARi PRABHu and HARi PRABH
> Now a very important observation is that the word HARi is a very very special for its grammar consideration.And that consideration is that this is the onlly(As I know) word which is SINGULAR as well as PLURAL for masculine or feminine genders.
> ...



*We cannot write it in Roman as you write; “u” letter doesn’t stand for ounkud, you just have made it that way. I shall go with that. When we speak, again this form doesn’t sound separately as you know its pronunciation is Har not Hari*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> If you follow the same style of avoiding the matra of Aukad how one should be able to understand the entity.Since you are eliminating the matra of Aukad from Noun words that is why you cant make out the difference in the references of two entities as per matra..



*You can figure out all this when you read Gurbani in original lipi, Gurmukhi and interpret it in English but Roman just cannot do justice to such forms. So don’t stick to it and keep explaining as you write these words, I shall accept that.*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> You can notice the application of the words with Matra of AUKAD and Without AUKAD as
> 1....GuRu SATi GuRu and GuR SATiGuR
> 2...GuRu Narayanu and GuR Narayan
> 3...GuRu Gobindu and GuR Gobind
> ...



*In concept of Ekankar, there is no various entities as you refer; these vowels may address Ekankar’s virtues (powers or waves or whatever you feel to address these virtues) but not call them entities. This will be the biggest distortion coming at your hands. As per your own words, there is a wave,  and there is a complete wave; you must define their origin.  There are many things made of matter but we accept the matter as the origin of the things. Entities are incorrectly misunderstood by you as I see you looking at various words. I shall prove that. Whenever singular verb follows with such words, they define it as single *
*With regards*
*mandemeet*


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## mandemeet (May 17, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> MANDEMEET Ji,
> Here are few Gurbanee Quotes for the reference as TARANG(WAVES)
> ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸੂਚੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ”



*Respected Parkash Singh ji, 
In above quote, there is no mention of Ekankaar waves; anant trang are referred to the feelings of Bhagat (Subject) in the love of Har (Hari), an object. Wherever you see this word “trang”, don’t conclude it is for waves of Har (Hari)*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ pp354
> ਜਪਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਕਾਲੁ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  pp367
> ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਫਲ ਮੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ  pp848
> 
> ...



*This is not the issue we disagree on. I already expressed how Har (Hari) is expended in waves defined by Guru Arjun Dev Ji. You could have given quotes defining Gur Joti/Prabh joti or Ikk Iku, eko ekas which could have defined the different meanings in their different grammatical appearances.

If Gurjoti is not defined in verses and we have to understand that through the words used to indicate that Gurjoti, we can do that, but carefully you look what you are heading too. You have given many quotes of Gurbani defining Ekankaar’s presence in waves and  you start creating entities of Ekankaar instead of accepting all these waves as the virtues of Ekankar whom you accept as one supreme Entity; here is your quote*



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> “I may bring to your kind attention that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is SINGLE ULTIMATE or SUPREME entity and that entity is PRABHu.This entity is well defined.”



*You call it Prabh (u) Or Ekankaar Or Waheguru; it doesn’t matter (as our Gurus and Bhagatas have used many words for that supreme entity “PRABHU") but entity is ONE.  What is that word in Punjabi that defines this “ONE” number? Be kind enough to answer this question. Last not the least, I highly grateful to you for opening up and defining how you look at Gurbani.*

*With regards*
*mandemeet*


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,
Well I have tried to tell you frankly how I understand Gurbanee words as per grammar.of the words.
I do admit there are always exceptions to the general rule being applicable at large.You should appreciate the fact that exceptions never become the Rule.
When I present you a general aspect you bring into exceptions that this can be like this. 
My dear MANDEMEET ji I can tell you very frankl;y that Numerical Number in the Symbol is not to tell Something as ONE.It has more deeper relation with GuR JoTi .to understand the significance of Numerical Number.
Since this is not clarified in Gurbanee openly  but there seems to be a possibility of understanding this from certain combinations of the words .
Try to understand what should be the meaning of the combinations for GuRoo-GuR and GuRu-GuR. where GuRoo and GuRu are SINGULAR words whereas GuR is PLURAL for GuRoo and GuRu words.
Now you dont ask me that I should elaborate this .I want this excercise at your end so you can develop your own understanding.

Gurbanee understanding is a very slow process and ultimate is the grace of GuRu.
I can simply present my observations I may be too wrong in interprating the same
I do accept this.


With best wishes 

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Astroboy (May 17, 2012)

> ....I can tell you very frankl;y that Numerical Number in the Symbol is not to tell Something as ONE.It has more deeper relation.......



I totally agree with you, Prakash Ji.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

Astroboy said:


> I totally agree with you, Prakash Ji.


 

Thanks,Astroboy Ji

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Astroboy (May 17, 2012)

Prakash Ji,

Giani Sant Singh Maskeen speaks words of wisdom. I enjoyed it and hope you and others will like it. 
Brahmand Di Alokak Katha 2/2 - Giani Sant Singh Maskeen.      - YouTube


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

MANDEMEET Ji,

For understanding How Gurbanee is TARANG of all divine Noun Words not only for the word HAri alone but for other words too. ,You will have to understand What Gurbanee really is refered as?

I think we understant Gurbanee as Guru(Not clarified whether this word Guru is with matra of Aukad or Dulakad,I think this is for Word Gur with matra of Dulakad as we are always eliminating the matra of Aukad while writing in Roman)

If you carefully see a Quote which is generally given that Banee is Guru and Guru is Banee you will find we are grossly mistaken for this.

In fact the Quote is clealy telling that Banee is GuRu(Word GuR with matra of Aukad)
So if you can understand the difference in the words GuRoo/GuRu/GuR and their relationship I think it should be clear for you How Gurbanee is TARANG of Divine Noun words.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## mandemeet (May 17, 2012)

*Respected Parkash Singh ji*
*Guru fateh!
*
*Accept my many thanks for opening up and not answering my questions. If you don’t want to share with SPN Sangat your divine knowledge in detail you got about Gurbani, what can I do? Once I thought you will show us the diamond you have found in Gurbani, but I have concluded, as you have ignored my vital questions, that it is not going to happen. I wish you good luck on your pursuit. I personally use Gurbani grammar to see the exact usage of the word in different contexts for more clarity.*
*With regards*
*mandemeet*


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 18, 2012)

mandemeet said:


> *Respected Parkash Singh ji*
> *Guru fateh!*
> 
> *Accept my many thanks for opening up and not answering my questions. If you don’t want to share with SPN Sangat your divine knowledge in detail you got about Gurbani, what can I do? Once I thought you will show us the diamond you have found in Gurbani, but I have concluded, as you have ignored my vital questions, that it is not going to happen. I wish you good luck on your pursuit. I personally use Gurbani grammar to see the exact usage of the word in different contexts for more clarity.*
> ...


 
I am impressed with your approach and the way you try to see the exact usage of the word in different comtexts for more clarity.
If you feel that i have avoided to answer your questions you are mistaken .I find you intelligent enough for knowing the meanings of Gurbanee indications for your answers.These indications I have mentioned in my previous post.Knowing themeanings of these two indications you may get the answers to all your questions.
The fact is that in Gurbanee the meanings of these indications are clarified in different way.It is only a question of paying attention to them.
Further I feel............................
The answer to your further questions requires interaction right from A of Gurbanee.For this you are always welcome to interact on mypersonal ID as psbagga@sms.co.in.Once we get to some common understanding we both can share with SPN sangat more effectively as I respect SPN sangat.
I think you can appreciate this what I mean.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 18, 2012)

mandemeet said:


> *Respected Parkash Singh ji,*
> 
> *I appreciate your efforts to address these words. Let us remove confusion first; if a word is singular Masculine gender, how it can be singular feminine gender too. Your this statement clearly is a double statement totally away from specific category of a word; that will also make its application broad not restricted. Let me make my expression simpler; a word, which is described by a grammarian as Plural Masculine gender, can also be used as Singular feminine; that is what you mean? If so, then most important factor in understanding the word is its “CONTEXT” not forms after all.*
> *I would appreciate if you give examples of Gur as Singular Musculine and Gur as Singular feminine. Kindly do not ignore this request.*
> ...


 
I think I have tried to give the answer to your questions to the best of my knowledge.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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