# Guru Nanak Never Questioned The Creator



## pk70

*Guru Nanak Never Questioned the Creator*


    Most of the scholars that I am aware of, interpreted Guru Nanak’s shabad which starts with “khurasaan khasmana kia.” quite contrary to Guru ji’s love for the Creator. It was never acceptable to me that Guru ji would use such language for the Creator. We must reread and understand the whole shabad along with other Guru- Vaakas which support Guru ji’s unconditional love for the Creator. First lets have a look on those Guru Vaakas which prove that in Guru ji’s mind, The Creator is beyond error, before we decipher what Guru ji is actually stating in that shabad (khurasaan Khasmana Kia (SGGS 360).
ਪੰਨਾ 61, ਸਤਰ 7[/FONT][/FONT]
ਭੁਲਣਅੰਦਰਿਸਭੁਕੋ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਗੁਰੂਕਰਤਾਰੁ॥
भुलणअंदरिसभुकोअभुलुगुरूकरतारु॥
Bẖulaṇ anḏar sabẖ ko abẖul gurū karṯār.
Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru and the Creator are infallible.
ਮਃ 1 Sri Rag Mehla 1 SGGS 61)
Whatever happens, it is right though it can look bad to others. Question is raised or addressed to those who make mistakes. He doesn’t make mistake at all then why to question HIM
Again
ਕਰਤਾਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ੁ ਹੈਨਭੁਲੈਕਿਸੈਦਾਭੁਲਾਇਆ॥
करताआपिअभुलुहैनभुलैकिसैदाभुलाइआ॥
Karṯā āp abẖul hai na bẖulai kisai ḏā bẖulā*i*ā.
The Creator Himself is infallible and above be fooling.
Also Mehla 4
] qU krih su scy hoiesI qw kwiequ kVIAY ]3]  {pMnw 301}
When, what Thou doest, O True Lord, that alone happens, then why should we grieve? 
   Why God loving will question HIM?
pauVI ] qU krqw Awip ABulu hY Bulx ivic nwhI ] qU krih su scy Blw hY gur sbid buJwhI ]301
  The creator is infallible, He is beyond it. Guru Shabad  makes us realize that whatever He does is right.(He just doesn’t do any thing wrong, period, this is the way His Bhagatas look at Him because they have experienced Him and understood His Will.
ਤੂਕਰਤਾਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ੁ ਹੈਭੁਲਣਵਿਚਿਨਾਹੀ॥
तूकरताआपिअभुलुहैभुलणविचिनाही॥
Ŧū karṯā āp abẖul hai bẖulaṇ vicẖ nāhī.
O Creator Lord, You yourself are infallible; you never make mistakes.
M 4 553
  As He is beyond error, why Guru ji will question Him?
  More
ਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਨਭੁਲੈਕਬਹੀਸਭੁਸਚੁਤਪਾਵਸੁਸਚੁਥਿਆ॥
आपिअभुलुनभुलैकबहीसभुसचुतपावसुसचुथिआ॥
Āp abẖul na bẖulai kab hī sabẖ sacẖṯapāvas sacẖ thi*ā.
He never errs; the justice of the True Lord is totally True(553)
More:
ਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਨਭੁਲਈਪਿਆਰਾਅਵਰੁਨਦੂਜਾਜਾਪੈ॥੨॥
आपिअभुलुनभुलईपिआराअवरुनदूजाजापै॥२॥
Āp abẖul na bẖul*ī pi*ārā avar na ḏūjā jāpai. ||2||
The Beloved Himself is infallible; He makes no mistakes. There is no other like Him to be seen. ||2|| 605)
 There is more on His infinity and His being infallible
ਕੀਮਤਿਸੋਪਾਵੈਆਪਿਜਾਣਾਵੈਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਨਭੁਲਏ॥( 767)
कीमतिसोपावैआपिजाणावैआपिअभुलुनभुलए॥
Kīmaṯ so pāvai āp jāṇāvai āp abẖul na bẖul*ė.
He alone can estimate the Lord's value, whom the Lord Himself causes to know. He is not mistaken; He does not make mistakes1022
Strongly it is said again
ਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ੁ ਨਕਬਹੂਭੁਲਾ॥
आपिअभुलुनकबहूभुला॥
Āp abẖul na kabhū bẖulā.
He Himself is infallible; He never makes mistakes.M-3 

Now in Rag Basant SGGS 1174 His infallibility is crystal clear
] Awip ABulu scw scu soie ] hoir siB BUlih dUjY piq Koie ]
Beyond error is the Eternal Lord, all others are to error and due to lose respect.
All these above quoted Vaakas have stated about His being infallible, then why to question Him? In the same token, *why would Guru ji question the infallible?* If powerful lion attacks crowd of sheep, even then, why infallible be questioned, it is just matter of understanding His Hukm, who understands, he/she never questions Him. What I see, scholars just fail to honor that status Guru ji repeatedly gives to Him. just merely looking at the vaak” Tain ki dard na aayeea( Didn’t you feel pity?), one can not  conclude Guru ji  has questioned Him because Guru ji  *hasn’t ever questioned HIM  at all.*
*So then why does Guru ji write it? Let’s find the answer in the Shabad itself.*
Here is the Shabad and, I shall try to explain what vaak is addressed to whom and what message Guru ji is trying to covey.
Awsw mhlw 1 ] Kurwswn Ksmwnw kIAw ihMdusqwnu frwieAw ] AwpY dosu n dyeI krqw jmu kir muglu cVwieAw ] eyqI mwr peI krlwxy qYN kI drdu n AwieAw ]1] krqw qUM sBnw kw soeI ] jy skqw skqy kau mwry qw min rosu n hoeI ]1] rhwau ] skqw sIhu mwry pY vgY KsmY sw pursweI ] rqn ivgwiV ivgoey kuqéØI muieAw swr n kweI ] ............................]3]5]39] {pMnw 360}
  ( In essence: After leaving Khurasan to someone’s care,  Baabar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself takes no blame as He has sent the Mugal, the messenger of death. . People were asking God’, after that so much slaughtering and cries, haven’t you felt pity?  || 1 ||    If some powerful one strikes out against another powerful equal, then no one feels any grief because both are equals.  || 1 ||  Pause  ||   But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, its the master who is questioned then . Jewel like humans are murdered by killer-dogs, no body cares about the dead”
Above, from the beginning of the Shabad, to "moeeaa saar na kaee( no body cares about the dead) [/FONT]*Guru ji describes the views of the people who witnessed the attack and Guru ji heard them talking about it[/FONT]*.[/FONT] They say,” God doesn’t take blame, He sends some one to do heinous crimes. It is acceptable if both are equals and fight and die but when so strong one [/FONT]   attacks so week, He should be questioned because He is the Master,  so we are asking doesn’t he feel pity or compassion, precious lives are taken”. 
 After describing  opinions of people around him,*Guru ji responds, he doesn’t question his Lord but praise Him and His Ordinance, here Guru ji inserts his views on it “* Awpy joiV ivCoVy Awpy vyKu qyrI vifAweI ]2] jy ko nwau Drwey vfw swd kry min Bwxy ] KsmY ndrI kIVw AwvY jyqy cugY dwxy ] mir mir jIvY qw ikCu pwey nwnk nwmu vKwx”y ]3]5]39] {pMnw 360}
  .” You yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness.  || 2 ||   One may have a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind, but in the Eyes of the Lord the Master, he/she is just a worm eating all corn it can eat.( What happens to them some time who indulge deeply in luxuries and forgot Him and responsibility, is clear in the attack,  so why to blame Him?)  Nanak says only that one lives without any vice (free from ego, lust, greed etc)) by meditating on His Naam and singing His praises, obtains His blessings (others don’t)  || 3 || 5 || 39 ||”
  Message is clear; people blame GOD but rarely take responsibility. Guru ji stresses that People blame HIM for their own short comings which make such things inevitable. Why the rulers got lost in luxuries and vices?  They should have been ready to do protection too. Whatever Babar had, they had it, did they use it? No. Why? Answer is because they were asleep in luxurious life styles.  Why to blame The Creator then?. He unites and He separates, it is all His glory. Before Him, regardless how one gets big with name or wealth (whatever), is merely like worm in His eyes( in public's eyes they may be called jewels). Only those go with respect from here who stay tuned to Him. 
*Obviously Guru ji is looking all this by understanding HIS Ordinance, others don’t. Scholars just missed what Guru ji intended to say in this Shabad; “The creator is infallible always, when luxurious life is preferred over Dharma, tragedies are inevitable.*

*G Singh*


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## spnadmin

PK

Like your new avatar. Reminds me of "I am the fish and You are the Ocean."


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## Parma

Big statement are sure you have it correct: Guru and god are infalliable. Only god can be infalliable. I would suggest that in the terms above, Guru is meant as Waheguru = The Creator. If guru is infalliable then there would be no reason for any guru or for any religious leader wether that be jesus, buddha, mohammed, nanak or anyone else to become believers in god for them themselves are being portraid as the ultimate themselves. They are ultimately infalliable. Cannot do wrong in anyones eyes. Even guru nanak at the time was thought to be wrong by people who did not understand his philosophy, such as his parents. Yet only god can be infalliable in all situations in all thoughts in all understandings. Yes on a spritual level the sucha sauda of guru nanak was right. Yet in the terms of Maya or for his family his desion was thought of as wrong. 
dicsion for his family was wrong. But god is never put 

Nothing more is needed. They are infalliable. Then why do they pick the route of reform in the world. Only god is perfect. Do not disrespect god and make many where there is only one imperfect being only one god no reform no change have you ever heard gods followers asking to change god. It is just a being to get close to this energy the creator if you want to feel the warmth then you have to change. Rel


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## Parma

I Have Not Finished The Above Post Only Each Time I Try To Edit It To Explain My Point The Writing Goes Black Is I Can Not Edit The Post Like When You Press Shift And Drang The Mouse Action> Thanks


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## pk70

Parma said:


> Big statement are sure you have it correct:
> *There is no big statement here,  Please do not rush to judge. Idea is that Gurbani states that God is beyond error, in that prospective, Guru ji wouldn’t question HIM. Contrary to it, what we see wrong is due to narrow window we look at, can also be called failing to understand  His laws. .Secondly, Guru ji wouldn’t say God makes mistakes as per his understanding of God’s Ordinance( Hukm) concept.*
> 
> Guru and god are infalliable. Only god can be infalliable. I would suggest that in the terms above, Guru is meant as Waheguru = The Creator. If guru is infalliable then there would be no reason for any guru or for any religious leader wether that be jesus, buddha, mohammed, nanak or anyone else to become believers in god for them themselves are being portraid as the ultimate themselves
> *Again, in context of teaching, they are right; who is infallible is God, the creator because our limited approach fails to understand His laws. All we witness and presume is done by God are wrong, is nothing more than displaying  of our tiny understanding of nature reduced by our so called intellect. They believed in Him as they understood His laws, they found Him through the language of love, by the way, Lord Budha is silent on it.*
> 
> . They are ultimately infalliable. Cannot do wrong in anyones eyes. Even guru nanak at the time was thought to be wrong by people who did not understand his philosophy, such as his parents. Yet only god can be infalliable in all situations in all thoughts in all understandings. Yes on a spritual level the sucha sauda of guru nanak was right. Yet in the terms of Maya or for his family his desion was thought of as wrong.
> dicsion for his family was wrong. But god is never put
> 
> *To understand your views on this and respond to them, let me take an example; in context of Sacha Souda, neither Guru ji’s folks were wrong nor Guru ji; however, in spiritual approach, all good is not making money but show passion too for the needy quite contrary to business point of view as society grows on exploitation. So error of this kind ( by either one) is irrelevant in context of the theme of the article.
> *
> Nothing more is needed. They are infalliable. Then why do they pick the route of reform in the world. Only god is perfect. Do not disrespect god and make many where there is only one imperfect being only one god no reform no change have you ever heard gods followers asking to change god.
> *Guru Nanak was not a reformer as you and others many look at him; He simply shows the path if walked on right way, presence of God is realized within. During explaining that path Guru ji questions Hippocratic practices which were not helpful to realize within.( you call it reforming, it is your choice) We question the spiritual leaders if we walk on the shown path and don’t get what they say, simply if it doesn’t fit in one’s psyche due to no spiritual experience, questioning becomes display of sheer ignorance. By the way how one can show disrespect while leading frustrated souls to Him?*
> It is just a being to get close to this energy the creator if you want to feel the warmth then you have to change.
> *If you ponder over this statement of yours, answer of your all questions is in there.*
> *Note. Article is not about God’s and Guru’s being beyond error but how Guru ji wouldn’t blame Him like all of us who amusingly overlook own responsibilities and start blaming HIM*


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## pk70

aad0002 said:


> PK
> 
> Like your new avatar. Reminds me of "I am the fish and You are the Ocean."



*aad0002 ji

What a co incident ! when I chose new Avtar, same " me mashli kaise ant lahan" came into my mind. I am a fish and He is the Ocean , is my story.*


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## spnadmin

Parma said:


> I Have Not Finished The Above Post Only Each Time I Try To Edit It To Explain My Point The Writing Goes Black Is I Can Not Edit The Post Like When You Press Shift And Drang The Mouse Action> Thanks



Parma ji,

I am not sure what the problem is -- but if you send me a pm maybe I can help you edit and say what you want to say. That might do the trick.

*But on the point of this discussion: *i think Parma ji you are asking is whether *both* God and Guruji can be infallible. And you are suggesting that this is not possible. Correct me if I am getting your main idea wrong. Your logic is actually straight on when you say ... _Only god can be infalliable. I would suggest that in the terms above, Guru is meant as Waheguru = The Creator. If guru is infalliable then there would be no reason for any guru or for any religious leader wether that be jesus, buddha, mohammed, nanak or anyone else to become believers in god for them themselves are being portraid as the ultimate themselves. _But there is no contradiction -- if you look at this from a slightly different angle.

My own reaction is this. Guruji, and the 10 Gurus, speak God's message.  Shabads are the words of God. God is infallible. God's Shabad is infallible. Thus what Guruji says, speaking in the voice of God, is infallible. So there would be no question that the hukam, the ordiinance of the Satguru who is Waheguru, commanded our Gurus and eventually commanded the voice of Guruji. Because of that, Guruji is infallible, Guru Nanak is infallible, all of the 10 Nanaks are infallible-- because they are speaking the message of Waheguru according to his hukam. The contradiction occurs only when thinking of Guruji or any of the Gurus as voicing individual opinions. There would be fallibility there. But in speaking by His hukam and carrying his jyote, that is where the infallibility comes in. There really is no contradiction. Please let me know if I have misunderstood you.


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## pk70

aad0002 said:


> P
> 
> My own reaction is this. Guruji, and the 10 Gurus, speak God's message.  Shabads are the words of God. God is infallible. God's Shabad is infallible. Thus what Guruji says, speaking in the voice of God, is infallible. So there would be no question that the hukam, the ordiinance of the Satguru who is Waheguru, commanded our Gurus and eventually commanded the voice of Guruji. Because of that, Guruji is infallible, Guru Nanak is infallible, all of the 10 Nanaks are infallible-- because they are *speaking the message of Waheguru according to his hukam. *The contradiction occurs only when thinking of Guruji or any of the Gurus as voicing individual opinions. There would be fallibility there. But in speaking by His hukam and carrying his jyote, that is where the infallibility comes in. There really is no contradiction. Please let me know if I have misunderstood you.



*aad0002 ji

Thanks for understanding infallibility of Guru ji in context of infallibility of WAHEGURU. Guru ji has recorded that in SGGS ji too.
It becomes more clear why Gurbani is honored as" Bani Nirankar Hai" or " Pothi Parmeshar ka thaan" I applaud that.
*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

How do we define God?



> _Monotheism:  Monotheism from the Greek [mono] meaning one and [theos] meaning God. The belief in one God. The term is applied particularly to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. "There were none before God and there will be none after Him."_





> Augustine rejected pantheism on the following grounds:
> "Concerning the rational animal himself,—that is, man,—what more unhappy belief can be entertained than that a part of God is whipped when a boy is whipped? And who, unless he is quite mad, could bear the thought that parts of God can become lascivious, iniquitous, impious, and altogether damnable? In brief, why is God angry at those who do not worship Him, since these offenders are parts of Himself?"
> Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



People often interpret a dualistic monotheism or Dvaita to Gurbani.  But Gurbani more closely philosophically resembles Gaudiya Vaishnava schools.  Vaishnava is primarily a Dvaitic teaching, focusing on the One Supreme Personality of the Godhead as Bhagavan Krishna and excluding worship of demi-gods.  But Vaishnava Vedanta incorporated an Advaitic element in the Achintya Bheda Abheda of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu which is a kind of synthesis of Dvaita-Advaita characteristic of the Vaishnav tradition.  Gurbani includes both Dvaitic and Advaitic definitions of God, explaining characteristics within duality and non-duality.



> A particularly distinct part of the Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy espoused by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the concept of Achintya Bheda Abheda, which translates to: inconceivable oneness and difference in the context of the soul's relationship with Krishna, and also Krishna's relationship with his other energies (i.e. the material world).




ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥ 
naanak breham giaanee aap paramaesur ||6||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||
~SGGS Ji p. 273​

On simple glance, there are no such concepts within the entire Abrahamic framework as Guru-disciple, Shabda-Jyot, mukti-merging, Brahm-gyani, jivan-mukta, reincarnation at all.  These are entirely Indic concepts set within an ancient Indic revelation of Sruti known as the Vedas.  And to wrench Sikh philosophy away from it's ancient Indic sources Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Simritis will not give a credible interpretation.  Some scholars try to say the Guru rejected the Vedas and Upanishads.  This is not correct.  Guru shows that the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas are not enough to be a boat of mukti in the Kaliyug because the era is corrupted, because creation has a pattern of degeneracy, towards decay.  In this Kaliyug, the previous forms of spirituality and approaching the Divine Principle are not enough, they are corruptible.  

The obverse of such an argument would be that Guru "accepted" the dualistic monotheism of the Katebas which is essentially a pure form of Dvaita.  And this is not correct.  Guruji hardly mentions the teachings of Kateb, yet strewn throughout the Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are constant references to Vedic and Upanishadic concepts and definitions, points of debates most notably between Dvaitic and Advaitic schools of philosophy and clarification of misunderstandings about the nirgun and sargun nature of the One Uncreated Parabrahm.  Even the very essence of Sufi mysticism is Advaita, which means "not two" in reference to the Vedantic philosophy of a framework underlying all multiplicity in creation as deriving from a Primordial Oneness.  In Sufi mysticism it refers to the atman in relation to the Paramatman, as the "shell" (atman) and the "kernel" (Paramatman).   The degree of reality defined by spiritual proximity to the Real Self, the true nature, the cosmic Reality which is the Uncreated nirgun hidden One.  So the body nature, and the karmic defilements and obscurations, the personality, the emotional attachments, the panj dhoots, the ego-centric husk is essentially part of the Maya illusion.  It is dying and repeating a cycle of bondage.  It exists in a condition of "stuckness" and ever degenerating darkness and desperation.  It is a "creature" a "slave."  Every thought it conceives is another bondage.  Because every thought and word it speaks is another step outward away from the inner circle, the inner Fire, the inner Reality.  


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥ 
nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.

ਏਕਹਿ ਏਕ ਬਖਾਨਨੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ 
eaekehi eaek bakhaanano naanak eaek anaek ||1||
Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 250​

All thoughts and words and descriptors and imaginings and reactivity are reflections of bondage.  We tend to translate the concept and identity of God in egoistic ways which are self-promoting.  Spiritual practice is translated as this superficial show, of being seen by others speaking holy words, doing holy deeds.  And the very egoistic defilement profanes all these right actions and perpetuates the bondage.  So we need another way out.  And every religious tradition, including Sikhism makes the all important distinction between the superficial and the kernel-core.  The outer, sense oriented, ego identified superficiality is completely corrupted and corruptible.  Sadhana, which is the disciplined path to enlightenment is an interior process.  The goal is to interiorize the spiritual energy, to draw it back to the center by closing the nine gates of sense perception.  This helps purify our sanchita karma, where our past actions are imbedded in the framework of our minds.  Dualism postulates that because of the nature of the created material universe in which we experience reality, we perceive things as separate when they are not at a higher level of dimensional existence.  Just as ice, steam and water appear to be different forms, when in actuality they are the same thing at different temperatures.  Dualism asserts the reality of the differences.  Non-duality accepts they are one and the same.  Duality is a flaw of human perception, filtered through the way we experience and process and thus define.  Dualistic monotheism is a concept that sees an Earth filled with individual identities.  I am separate from you.  Compare for yourselves which philosophy is closer to what Gurbani explains, Advaita or dualistic monotheism of the Kateb.



> "To resolve such passages in the Upanishads, Advaita Vedanta maintains that really Brahman is devoid of all attributes, and is therefore known as nirguna. Brahman may be described as in the Upanishads, as Truth (satyam), Knowledge (jnanam), Infinite (anantam), or as Being (sat), Consciousness (cit), Bliss (Ananda), but none of these terms can be truly interpreted as attributes of brahman as a Super-person/God. Rather, it is because Brahman exists, that this whole universe is possible. It is because Brahman exists that man ascribes attributes to Brahman. However, Brahman's true nature cannot be captured in words, for all these attributes are ultimately just words. Hence, it is man's ignorance of Its true nature that postulates attributes to Brahman, thereby describing It in sarguna terms (with attributes). This sarguna Brahman is Isvara, the Lord, whose essential reality as Brahman is not dependent on anything else, and does not change because of the production of this universe. Therefore, Advaita holds that Brahman's own nature (svarupa- lakshana) is devoid of any attributes (nirguna), while It is seen for the temporary purposes of explaining creation (tatastha- lakshana) to be Isvara, with attributes (sarguna).
> 
> So much for sarguna and nirguna Brahman. If Brahman cannot be held to have suffered any change because of creation of the universe, then what is the status of this universe? Since the cause does not undergo any change in the process of producing the effect, it is held that the cause alone is Real. The universe only partakes in reality inasmuch as it is to be considered as dependent on Brahman. Therefore the Upanishads say, "Sarvam. Khalvidam. Brahma." If the universe is considered to be independent of Brahman, then it has no real Reality, although the world of human perception can never reveal this truth. This is simply because
> Brahman Itself is never an object of human perception. It is this characteristic of dualistic knowledge, derived from perception alone, that prompts the Advaitin to call it mithyajnana (false knowledge)."
> The Advaita Vednta Home Page - The Philosophy of Advaita






> "Augustine, one of the most influential early Christian thinkers, described the soul as "a special substance, endowed with reason, adapted to rule the body". Some Christians espouse a trichotomic view of man, which characterizes humans as consisting of a body (soma) , soul (psyche), and spirit (pneuma), however the majority of modern Bible scholars point out how spirit and soul are used interchangeably in many biblical passages, and so hold to dichotomy: the view that man is body and soul. Paul said that the "body wars against" the soul, and that "I buffet my body", to keep it under control. Philosopher Anthony Quinton said the soul is a "series of mental states connected by continuity of character and memory, [and] is the essential constituent of personality. The soul, therefore, is not only logically distinct from any particular human body with which it is associated; it is also what a person is". Richard Swinburne, a Christian philosopher of religion at Oxford University, wrote that "it is a frequent criticism of substance dualism that dualists cannot say what souls are.... Souls are immaterial subjects of mental properties. They have sensations and thoughts, desires and beliefs, and perform intentional actions. Souls are essential parts of human beings..."
> 
> The origin of the soul has provided a sometimes vexing question in Christianity; the major theories put forward include creationism, traducianism and pre-existence. According to creationism, each individual soul is created directly by God, either at the moment of conception, or some later time..."
> Soul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Since the Abrahamic theologies must keep the human soul forever separate from the God, they struggle with conceptions of soul creation being separate from bodily creation, since they believe in an afterlife following demise of the body, and thus a soul-nature which exists outside of Time, and in eternity.  None of these bizarre conceptual difficulties are found in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because the soul is accepted to be the atma.  But these bizarre permutations of belief exist so that hasidic Judaism teaches there are different kinds of souls, and that a Yiddiche Neshama (Jewish Soul) is qualitatively different and closer to God then a Gentile soul.  Some Dvaitic schools argue there is a kind of Brahmin soul, a Kshatri soul, male souls, female souls, etc.  So where do the differences and multiplicities end?  Certainly not with death of the body.  So how can true merging occur, if the soul, jiva, atma core essential being of the creation is forever caught in linear time, and conceptually in linear space and remaining forever distant, forever separate? That would be a condition of perpetual bondage.

What is a soul?  


> Ātman, sanskrit: आत्मन्*) is a philosophical term used within Hinduism and Vedanta to identify the soul. It is one's true self (hence generally translated into English as 'Self') beyond identification with the phenomenal reality of worldly existence... The concept of the jiva (Sanskrit: जीव) is similar, but not necessarily identical to, the concept of the soul as presented in Abrahamic religions. The word itself originates from the Sanskrit Jivás, with the root jīv- 'to breathe'. It has the same Indo-European root as the Latin word Vivus: "Alive".
> 
> In Hindu theology, Paramatman or Paramatma is the Absolute Atman or Supreme Soul or Spirit (also known as Supersoul or Oversoul) in the Vedanta and Yoga philosophies of India. Paramatman is one of the aspects of Brahman: "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan."  Also known as the divine self or the one object, Paramatman is situated in the heart of every individual jiva in the macrocosm. Rigveda and Upanishads compare Atman and Paramatman to two birds sitting like friends on a tree (body). Atman eats its fruits (karma) and Paramatman only observes his friend as a witness (sākşhī) of his actions.
> 
> Atman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jiva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


We can clearly see that Guruji is using a classic Advaitic definition in Gurbani, even the words He choses are the same: Parabrahm, Atma, Jeea, as well as the Upanishadic definitions of all-pervading non-dual Oneness.  So these would be the concepts most inclined to the truest interpretation of Gurbani, and not implied dualistic monotheism of the Kateb.  Guruji talks about the separation, but also of the Oneness which is all-Pervading and our ultimate Source of True Merging.  Dualistic monotheism cannot tolerate a concept of merging any more than it can tolerate a concept of avtaara.  Liberation, mukti in Advaita is in gaining the perception, the insightful wisdom that the atma self is a construct of forces which impel bondage to the sensual world.  The Real Self is the same as the Nirgun Supreme Uncreated, which contains universes within itself, because ultimately, in truest Reality, there is only the Absolute without qualities who remains uncorrupted by the imperfections of the perceivable universe.  Just as the man who went to a Zen teacher and told him, "I have a problem with anger."  And the teacher said, "Please show me your anger."  And the man replied, "Well I'm not angry right now."  The Zen teacher told him, "Then anger must not be a constant part of your personality if it's something that comes and goes.  Anger is like clouds that drift along the sky, but are not the sky itself.  So anger is not a real part of who you are.  So learn to let it go and stop attracting it by identification."  The whole point of Naam jappa is to identify, to attune, to vibrate in sync, in harmony with the energy Reality of the Lord Himself.  So that we are freed from the illusions of the senses and the kalpas and the defining points we call "personality."  It's a way of washing the inner mirror so we can stop seeing only the shadow self which blocks the Light.

So to reconcile the seeming contradiction of how there can be a Supreme Uncreated Paramatman and a created individual lesser atman we have to look at the Gurbani.  And the Gurbani says the individual atman will obtain Self-realization.  This condition of Self-realization is God-consciousness.  The ego-identity which is merely shadows which obstruct the light have been brushed aside, and what is reflected back is what has always been Present, the One Divine Uncreated.  Because it isn't a divination of the human being at all, it's the removal of the illusions of separation.  In this place, this created world of the appearance of duality, is illusion.  We do not perceive the full Reality.  

In a sense, this existence can be said to be like a dream world, where we are dreaming a certain illusion of form.  But getting beyond the illusions of thought, kalpas, and misperception, and the ignorance, avidya of body-identification and sense perception, beyond all these things is the Fourth state of consciousness.  So we cannot even deal with concepts like ego, and body and time when speaking of a dimensionality which is outside of time and space.  Without space, of course, there is no such thing as this body sitting in this chair.  Those are reality in this world.  That is not the deepest Reality.  Those are physical manifestations of something quite beyond the limitations of a human personality.  And our core nature is something beyond the limitations of the merely human.  So we cannot be, at our core essence, the frailty of a created being.  When all creation passes away, when all forms fade to dust and there isn't even a speck of dust, do we cease to exist?  Is this physical universe all there is?  You see, these are the issues being related in the concept of atma.  And there is no concept of atma without a concept of Paramatma.

According to dualistic monotheism, the atma is forever separate from Paramatma.  But by strict Advaitic definition, the Paramatma is the fullest and deepest reality of atma.  Atma is just the reflection of light through a prism of glass to manifest here.  Atma is an illusion of creation.  The Reality is, there is no creation.  Ultimately, beyond time, every sargun manifestation recedes back to what has always preceded, the nirguna.  There is only the One, not two, not three, not three hundred thirty million, not uncountable infinities.  One.  Everything else is an illusion of the Time dimension.  Even the very thoughts of your mind.  And after passage of time, end of time, and outside of time, the illusions cease to exist.  Within a concept of eternity, even the sun and stars will vanish.  What will you be then if there is nothing left to be?  You see it isn't the individual forms, but the consciousness itself which persists beyond time.



> Paramatman is beyond knowledge and ignorance, devoid of all material attributes (upadhi). In Vaishnava texts such as the Bhagavad Gita, ch. 13, it is described as four-armed Lord Vishnu residing in the hearts of all beings and in every atom of matter. He is the overseer and the permitter of their actions and reminds him how to act according to his advancement. Paramatman is different from five elements (mahabhutas), senses, mind, pradhana and jiva.
> 
> In today's Hinduism, the word Paramātmā is invariably used to refer to God, interchangeably with Ishvara (the Supreme Lord) and Bhagavan (divine, holy). The word invariably conjures the concept of the infinite, non-corporeal God in a monotheistic sense to today's Hindus, even though Bhagavan etc. may be applied as epithets to many devas or the demi-gods of Hinduism. Some, like the sect of Brahma Kumaris, like to visualize Paramatman as a point of light.
> 
> In Advaita philosophy, individual souls are called Jīvātman, and the Highest Brahman is called Paramātman; the Jivatman and the Paramatman become one and the same when the Jivatman attains the true knowledge of the Brahman.
> Paramatman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Knowledge of God.  Breham Gyani.  Brahma-Jnana.  The epitome of liberation.  The realization of the true Self hidden behind all forms.

And this goes to the concept of mukti.  How can there be liberation at all from the ego-identity if you don't cease to exist as separate?  It is the ideas of separation and individual identity which have frozen the light of your own being and caused material manifestation.  These kalpas and skandas and kaleshas and karams are what form your individuality.  Without these false thoughts and suffering identity which is darkness obsuring the light, there is only light.



ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈਐ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥
jothee joth milaaeeai surathee surath sanjog ||
When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness,

ਹਿੰਸਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਤੁ ਗਏ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ 
hinsaa houmai gath geae naahee sehasaa sog ||
then one's cruel and violent instincts and egotism depart, and skepticism and sorrow are taken away.  

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥ 
guramukh jis har man vasai this maelae gur sanjog ||2||
The Lord abides within the mind of the Gurmukh, who merges in the Lord's Union, through the Guru. ||2||  
~SGGS Ji p. 21​

Is God in Sikhism defined as the Lord divided like fractions into uncountable millions of existences?  Is He divided into 330 different Devas and demi-gods?  Or is there only 1 God separate from the rest of creation?  That would be dualistic monotheism, or Dvaita, a belief in 1 separate God and the rest of creation.  The other interpretation is Advaita.  Everything that is, is only one.  The nothingness of zero nirgun is = to uncountable infinities.  Because the uncountable infinities are only sargun saroop of the nothingness.  In Tibetan Buddhism they teach the nirguna as Shunyata, which means essential emptiness.  But Shunyata has a unique characteristic in that it is the union of emptiness and light.  By this definition, the Geshes assert that the emptiness is pregnant with potential.  Consider the integer zero.  You can express it as a set (0).  Or even a subset 0(0).  But it remains nothing.  With this mathematical exception, the emptiness is actually a placeholder, because it can move forward or backwards in positive or negative numbers.  So it would like like a basic number set of potential infinities in both directions.  -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 ad infinitum.  This shows how creation is dependant on the nirgun emptiness.  But if you multiplied any infinity against zero, your result would be zero.  So the zero sum is not dependant on the infinity.  The ultimate equation of everything that is, is nothing.  It is no thing.  Just as negative integers reflect an imaginary quotient because they don't exist except as constructs of the mind, so does reality have an illusionary quality.  So from our human perspective, we exist, the material world exists, we have a real experience here, and ideas that the world is unreal or doesn't exist defy logic.

  The infinite and uncountable varieties of forms are really only illusory, a play of light and shadows, of particle and thought, tendancies to exist, holographic motion.  There is only One.



> "Brahma Satyam. Jagat Mithya. Jivo Brahmaiva Na Parah."
> These can be translated in English as follows:
> God only is real. The world is unreal. The individual is none other than God.
> ~Shankara




ਝੂਠਾ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਰੈਨਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
jhoothaa than saachaa kar maaniou jio supanaa rainaaee ||1||
The body is false, but they believe it to be true; it is like a dream in the night. ||1||

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਦਰ ਕੀ ਛਾਈ ॥ 
jo dheesai so sagal binaasai jio baadhar kee shhaaee ||
Whatever is seen, shall all pass away, like the shadow of a cloud.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗੁ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਸਰਨਾਈ ॥੨॥੨॥ 
jan naanak jag jaaniou mithhiaa rehiou raam saranaaee ||2||2||
O servant Nanak, one who knows the world to be unreal, dwells in the Sanctuary of the Lord. ||
~SGGS Ji p. 219​



> "Why does human perception fail to see brahman directly? SankarAcArya attributes it sometimes to avidyA (ignorance) and sometimes to mAyA (the power to deceive). As the bRhadAraNyaka upanishad puts it, "vijnAtAram. are kena vijAnIyAt?" - How is the Knower Itself to be known? It also stands to reason, therefore, that any effort at characterizing brahman falls far short of brahman. No words reach brahman; how can mere verbal descriptions claim to describe It? advaita now turns to the ancient technique of adhyAropa-apavAda (sublation of superimposition) to explain this. Thus, although brahman is called the instrumental and material cause of the universe, advaita tells us that this is only a preliminary view of brahman, motivated by a need to explain creation of the universe. In order to understand brahman, one has to go beyond this preliminary view, and understand brahman in Itself, not necessarily in relation to the universe. Then it is understood that the whole universe is only superimposed on the underlying Reality that is brahman."
> The Advaita Vednta Home Page - The Philosophy of Advaita



Maya is of the nature of mind. Maya generates different degrees of illusions. Maya pervades everywhere. If your mind is destroyed by discrimination and Vichara, then Maya will not afflict you. ~Upanishads​



ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥ 
eaekaa joth joth hai sareeraa ||
The One Light is the light of all bodies.

ਸਬਦਿ ਦਿਖਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥ 
sabadh dhikhaaeae sathigur pooraa ||
The Perfect True Guru reveals it through the Word of the Shabad.

ਆਪੇ ਫਰਕੁ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
aapae farak keethon ghatt anthar aapae banath banaavaniaa ||1||
He Himself instills the sense of separation within our hearts; He Himself created the Creation. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 125​



> "Sankara explains tattvamasi as follows. tat is a common designation for brahman in the upanishads, while tvam (thou) addresses the student. The sentence states an equation of two seemingly different entities tat - that, and tvam - thou, by means of the verb asi - are. In general, Brahman (Tat) is commonly understood as Isvara (sarguna Brahman), with an infinity of attributes, including the power of creation. Tvam is the individual who is bound, who is embodied, and who is in need of liberation. The difference between Tvam and Tat seems to be a matter of common knowledge for all individuals. What is the reason for the Upanishad to teach an identity then? An identity cannot be stipulated, even in infallible Sruti, if there is a real difference. Keeping in mind that Sruti is infallible, Advaita therefore concludes that really there is no ultimate difference between Tat and Tvam.
> 
> The identity expressed in a statement like tattvamasi is therefore held to be Real, and its realization constitutes the height of knowledge (jnana). Direct experience of this jnana is in fact moksha. It also follows that since this identity is not perceived normally, difference arises out of avidya, ignorance of the true nature of Reality. Since Sruti is superior to perception, this identity is indeed the supreme truth, all difference being in the realm of relative perception. If non-dualism is the true nature of Reality, why is this difference perceived in the first place? Given Advaita's basis on the non-dualistic scriptures, the perception of difference remains, in the final analysis, inexplicable. This is labeled "anirvacya/anirvacanIya" in Advaita - something that can never be fully understood by the human mind. Since perception of duality presupposes avidya, no amount of logical analysis, itself based on this duality, will satisfactorily explain avidya."
> The Advaita Vednta Home Page - The Philosophy of Advaita



This mind which ever hankers after sensual objects is the seed of Maya. If the mind is annihilated Maya will vanish. You will attain the state of quiescence. Brahma-Jnana will dawn in you. ~Upanishads​
Darshana: sight, to see, to behold something bright.  "Perspectives, ways of seeing."  To have Darshan subtly changes the perceiver.  It changes your perspective.  It cleanses clouds and darkness from your mind.  It is to receive the truest apprehension of jnana, gyan.  Gyan is received.  It can't be obtained through self-effort.  That's why the most brilliant scholars continue to study and search what is endless, and the very simple and most humble have become brahm-gyani.  To become brahm-gyani you must be receptive to the Light.  It has nothing to do with education.  Divine wisdom isn't knowledge or collection of facts.  It has to do with inward vision, and thus intuition of what is inwardly perceived.  It is to recognize the Self-reflection.  How can people talk about spirituality, let alone mukti, when they don't even change their ordinary consciousness?  When all frames of reference are based on the sense objects of the sansaara?   We are here (in this space in time) and God is over there somewhere (in another spatial dimension).  Space and time do not exist outside the limitation of our dimensionality.

When I stand on a clear night and look up at the stars billions of years distant from me, I am seeing the light as it was billions of years distant.  Because it took the light billions of years to travel to the distance of my eyes.  So when I see the stars, I'm only seeing the past.  I can't see them as they are in this present moment of time.  But in the God-conscious Fourth state, there is no time.  So naturally the perception will be different.  Outside of Time, there is only the Timeless Oneness.  Maya and duality are building blocks of the time dimension.  Like the Christian descriptor of God's name, "I am" in Hebrew actually translates "I shall be there."  It is active, future, past and present participle.  The name is a verb.  It is motion and life.  It is affirmation of perpetual Presence.  Everlastingness is outside of time.  Like the definitions of God's Presence in sansaara through vehicle of sargun saroop of Das Avtaara, "I will keep coming back to you until you find your self in Me." 

Like a mirror, we behold the darshan of the holy and the beautiful in the terrible injustices and evils of fake world.  Darkness is blackboard on which the chalk of righteousness writes.  Through the righteousness of Dharma we perceive Darshan of what we could be.  Darshan of what we should be.  Darshan of what we are, if only we could die to self.  Here is one truth about Abrahamic teachings that heaven is the ultimate:  And that is, "Heaven wouldn't be heaven without you, and you, and you."  There can be no ultimate liberation until all the lost and separated sparks are united in the One Divine Fire.   That is why only merging can be the ultimate.  And merging requires a pantheistic perspective, of Seeing the actual Reality and Presence of the True One hiding behind all forms.  Bhairaagi, detachment from the suffering world of forms which pass away and longing for the Original Ground of Being, the True Bliss.  That is the way to find God.  Bhagkti, the abandoning of the illusionary world of forms and shadows to have Real experience through the force of love, seeking to unite the lover with the Divine Beloved One.



> "Bhakti is the seeking after one's real nature." -Adi Shankara







> yatha hy avahito vahnir
> darushv ekah sva-yonishu
> naneva bhati visvatma
> bhuteshu ca tatha puman
> ~Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.32​TRANSLATION
> 
> The Lord, as Supersoul, pervades all things, just as fire permeates wood, and so He appears to be of many varieties, though He is the absolute one without a second.
> Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1 Chapter 2 Verse 32




ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​


ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਅੜਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਲੀਆ ਸਮਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
jis thae oupajiarraa thin leeaa samaaee raam ||
We originated from Him, and into Him we shall merge once again.

ਮਿਲਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜੋਤੀ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤੀ ਉਦਕੁ ਉਦਕਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
mil breham jothee outh pothee oudhak oudhak samaaeiaa ||
I merge into God's Light, through and through, like water merging into water. 

ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਏਕੁ ਰਵਿਆ ਨਹ ਦੂਜਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥ 
jal thhal meheeal eaek raviaa neh dhoojaa dhrisattaaeiaa ||
The One Lord permeates the water, the land and the sky - I do not see any other.

ਬਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ ਪੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ 
ban thrin thribhavan poor pooran keemath kehan n jaaee ||
He is totally permeating the woods, meadows and the three worlds. I cannot express His worth.
~SGGS Ji p. 545
​



ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਘਣੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ॥੨॥
jan naanak har maelaaeiaa maeree jindhurreeeae ghar vaajae sabadh ghanaerae raam ||2||
Servant Nanak has merged into the Lord, O my soul; the many melodies of the Shabad resound within his heart. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 538​
Guru Nanak Dev Ji achieved non-duality, according to Gurbani.  A condition in which He has God-consciousness, and is no longer the individual consciousness of limited personality or jeev.  From this merged fourth state of Turiya consciousness, Satguru is in fact completely one with Vaheguru.  There is no difference between Satguru and God.  Because there is no longer sansaaric personality.  It is merged.  It is mukt.  It is free.  It has returned to the origin, so Guruji is no longer the human physicality or the jeevatman.  Guruji is the Uncreated Parabrahm.  How can the created become the Uncreated?  Because the created doesn't exist as an independant shadow obstructing the Light.  There is only Shabad-Jyot of the One all-pervading Vaheguru.  Guruji is merged.  He can no longer be distinguished from the source, origin and ground of original being, which is the realized Self, Uncreated nirgun Paramatman.  So there is no longer any separate object.  There is no "I" and "Thou."  It's not like we can picture Guruji in a heavenly place somewhere enjoying darshan of Vaheguru by staring at God as a separate entity and listening intently so he can infallibly relate what words he hears direct from God's lips.  It's not anything like the dualistic monotheism of Abrahamic convention.  Guruji never questioned His Creator, because He came into the world as a God-Realized soul.  So everything we know about 10 forms of Guru, and 1 form of Shri Guru Granth Sahib is already in a state of being merged.  They are indistinguishable.  The Shabda-Jyot has come into sansaara through vehicle of Guru Nanak Dev Ji direct from the imperceivable nirguna.  There was no human personality ever standing in it's way.  He is the Satguru of the Kaliyug.




ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਖਿਨਿ ਖਪੈ ਖਿਨੁ ਆਵੈ ਖਿਨੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
khin mehi oupajai khin khapai khin aavai khin jaae ||
In an instant, one is born, and in an instant, one dies. In an instant one comes, and in an instant one goes.  

ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੈ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਸੰਤਾਇ ॥ 
sabadh pashhaanai rav rehai naa this kaal santhaae ||
One who recognizes the Shabad merges into it, and is not afflicted by death.
~SGGS Ji p. 58​


ਸਹਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਆਇਆ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ 
sehasaa eihu sansaar hai mar janmai aaeiaa jaaeiaa ||
This world is an illusion; it dies and it is re-born-it comes and it goes in reincarnation.
~SGGS Ji p. 138​


ਜੈਸਾ ਸਾ ਤੈਸਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥ 
jaisaa saa thaisaa dhrisattaaeiaa ||
As God is, so does He appear;  

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
apunae kaaraj mehi aap samaaeiaa ||
in His Own creation, He Himself is pervading. 

ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੀਝਿਆ ॥ 
sodhhath sodhhath sodhhath seejhiaa ||
Searching, searching, searching, and finally, success! 

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਬੂਝਿਆ ॥ 
gur prasaadh thath sabh boojhiaa ||
By Guru's Grace, the essence of all reality is understood. 

ਜਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਬ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਮੂਲੁ ॥ 
jab dhaekho thab sabh kishh mool ||
Wherever I look, there I see Him, at the root of all things.  

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਸੂਖਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥੫॥ 
naanak so sookham soee asathhool ||5||
O Nanak, He is the subtle, and He is also the manifest. ||5||  

ਨਹ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਨਮੈ ਨਹ ਕਿਛੁ ਮਰੈ ॥ 
neh kishh janamai neh kishh marai ||
Nothing is born, and nothing dies. 

ਆਪਨ ਚਲਿਤੁ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕਰੈ ॥ 
aapan chalith aap hee karai ||
He Himself stages His own drama.
~SGGS Ji p. 281​


ਆਪਾ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਅਭਿਉ ਨ ਚੂਕੇ ॥੨॥ 
aapaa padh nirabaan n cheenihaaa ein bidhh abhio n chookae ||2||
He does not realize the dignity of the self, and Nirvaanaa; because of this, his doubt does not depart. ||2||

ਕਹੀ ਨ ਉਪਜੈ ਉਪਜੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਭਾਵ ਅਭਾਵ ਬਿਹੂਣਾ ॥ 
kehee n oupajai oupajee jaanai bhaav abhaav bihoonaa ||
The soul is not born, even though he thinks it is born; it is free from birth and death. 

ਉਦੈ ਅਸਤ ਕੀ ਮਨ ਬੁਧਿ ਨਾਸੀ ਤਉ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਲਿਵ ਲੀਣਾ ॥੩॥ 
oudhai asath kee man budhh naasee tho sadhaa sehaj liv leenaa ||3||
When the mortal gives up his ideas of birth and death, he remains constantly absorbed in the Lord's Love. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 475​


ਤੂ ਸਚਾ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ॥ 
thoo sachaa sachiaar jin sach varathaaeiaa ||
You are True, O True Lord; You dispense True Justice.  

ਬੈਠਾ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਇ ਕਵਲੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
baithaa thaarree laae kaval shhapaaeiaa ||
Like a lotus, You sit in the primal celestial trance; You are hidden from view.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਹਾਇ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamai vaddaa kehaae anth n paaeiaa ||
Brahma is called great, but even he does not know Your limits.

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨ ਮਾਇ ਕਿਨਿ ਤੂ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ 
naa this baap n maae kin thoo jaaeiaa ||
You have no father or mother; who gave birth to You?

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਵਰਨ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ 
naa this roop n raekh varan sabaaeiaa ||
You have no form or feature; You transcend all social classes. 

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭੁਖ ਪਿਆਸ ਰਜਾ ਧਾਇਆ ॥ 
naa this bhukh piaas rajaa dhhaaeiaa ||
You have no hunger or thirst; You are satisfied and satiated. 

ਗੁਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਪੁ ਸਮੋਇ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ॥ 
gur mehi aap samoe sabadh varathaaeiaa ||
You have merged Yourself into the Guru; You are pervading through the Word of Your Shabad. 

ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਪਤੀਆਇ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
sachae hee patheeaae sach samaaeiaa ||2||
When he is pleasing to the True Lord, the mortal merges in Truth. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​



ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਵ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥ 
gur naanak sach neev saaj sathigur sang leenaa ||
Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Truth; He is blended with the True Guru.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਬੀਣਾ ॥੩॥ 
gur arajun ghar gur raamadhaas aparanpar beenaa ||3||
In the House of Guru Raam Daas, Guru Arjun has appeared as the Embodiment of the Infinite Lord. ||3||  

ਖੇਲੁ ਗੂੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਉ ਕੀਅਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਸੰਤੋਖਿ ਸਮਾਚਰਿ੍ਯ੍ਯਓ ਬਿਮਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਮਾਣਉ ॥ 
khael goorrho keeao har raae santhokh samaachariyou bimal budhh sathigur samaano ||
The Sovereign Lord King has staged this wondrous play; contentment was gathered together, and pure understanding was infused in the True Guru.

ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਵਿਅਉ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵੀਅਣਿ ਬਖਾਣਿਅਉ ॥ 
aajonee sanbhaviao sujas kaly kaveean bakhaaniao ||
KALL the poet utters the Praises of the Unborn, Self-existent Lord.

ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਮਰ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥ 
gur naanak angadh varyo gur angadh amar nidhhaan ||
Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad, and Guru Angad blessed Guru Amar Daas with the treasure.

ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ॥੪॥ 
gur raamadhaas arajun varyo paaras paras pramaan ||4||
Guru Raam Daas blessed Guru Arjun, who touched the Philosopher's Stone, and was certified. ||4||

ਸਦ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
sadh jeevan arajun amol aajonee sanbho ||
O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,

ਭਯ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਨੰਭਉ ॥ 
bhay bhanjan par dhukh nivaar apaar ananbho ||
the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless.

ਅਗਹ ਗਹਣੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭ੍ਰਾਂਤਿ ਦਹਣੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਤਉ ॥ 
ageh gehan bhram bhraanth dhehan seethal sukh dhaatho ||
You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace. 

ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥ 
aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥ 
naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao ||
First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.  

ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਉ ॥੫॥ 
dhhan dhhann guroo raamadhaas gur jin paaras paras milaaeiao ||5||
Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas, the Philosopher's Stone, who transformed Guru Arjun unto Himself. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 1407​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


----------



## Randip Singh

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> How do we define God?
> 
> 
> 
> People often interpret a dualistic monotheism or Dvaita to Gurbani. But Gurbani more closely philosophically resembles *Gaudiya Vaishnava schools*. Vaishnava is primarily a Dvaitic teaching, focusing on the One Supreme Personality of the Godhead as Bhagavan Krishna and excluding worship of demi-gods. But Vaishnava Vedanta incorporated an Advaitic element in the Achintya Bheda Abheda of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu which is a kind of synthesis of Dvaita-Advaita characteristic of the Vaishnav tradition. Gurbani includes both Dvaitic and Advaitic definitions of God, explaining characteristics within duality and non-duality.


 
Why *Gaudiya Vaishnava schools?*

Why not Sufic Islam? Why not any other faith?


----------



## Sikh80

*
The primary reasons may be, I am not so sure of but one can make out things, that the two school of thoughts have many things in common.,Theory of Karma and karmic reaction., The journey of the soul or the science of soul, Broad agreement on the concept  of God and His relationship with the other jivas and the interrelation ship of jivas and.the relation ship of the  God and HIS creation i.e Nirgun and sargun Forms  and  reincarnation and 84 Lakh species and Four Yugas  etc, etc. Further there are very pointed references to Vedas in Bani.

We do not or may not have similarities of these concepts in Sufiism  or even Islam. This is per my little understanding of the things. 
I cannot take up questions based on this.*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> But Gurbani more closely philosophically resembles Gaudiya Vaishnava schools.
> 
> - Why not Sufic Islam? Why not any other faith?



This is my opinion based on studying the concepts and philosophical system in Gurbani itself. It is not my decision to say to Guru, "Pick these concepts instead of those."

As to why not another faith, I think it's beyond obvious that Guruji lived in a certain geographical region at a particular time in history. Guruji belongs to the traditions of India, and not the Western countries. And undeniably the Vaishnava influence is so strong, even to the same philosophical positions which differs from other schools of Vedanta. For example Gurbani completely subordinates every deva to the nirgun Parabrahm. And in particular says this about Shiva:


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ ॥ 
breham giaanee ko khojehi mehaesur ||
The God-conscious being is sought by the great god Shiva.

~SGGS Ji p. 273​

The Shaivite sampradyas and the Vaishnav sampradyas are always having conflicts because the Vaishnav tradition always subordinates Shiv below even a God-conscious human being. The argument that Bramalok and Shivalok are marginal because still in materiality is also a Vaishnav teaching which annoys most other schools of Hinduism. 



ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ 
siv puree breham eindhr puree nihachal ko thhaao naahi ||
The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

~SGGS Ji p. 214​

So these kind of concepts in Gurbani just point to close relationship of Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani, more so than evidence of Guruji correcting faults in Hindu teaching in general. Because Gurbani is nearly identical to Vaishnav Vedantic theology on several points, how could it be correcting faults of Hinduism and reject validity of Vaishnav Vedanta? Just to generalize that all Hindus worship Shiva as Mahadeva, and then read Gurbani subordinating Shiva and Brahma is not correct to infer a contrary teaching. It is Gaudiya Vaishnava school of philosophy to teach this, and also subordination of Vishnu to Krsna. Only Har Krishan is equated as the Supreme nirgun Parabrahm. 




ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ 
guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.

ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ 
dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||

ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥ 
nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥ 
kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
Millions of people worship His Feet.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ 
guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ 
amogh dharasan baeanth apaaraa ||
Forever fruitful is the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; He is Infinite and Incomparable.

ਵਡ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸਦਾ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥ 
vadd samarathh sadhaa dhaathaaraa ||
He is Awesome and All-powerful; He is forever the Great Giver.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੀਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਗਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਰਲੀ ਜਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੬॥੧੩॥ 
guramukh naam japeeai thith thareeai gath naanak viralee jaathee jeeo ||4||6||13||
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and you shall be carried across. O Nanak, rare are those who know this state! ||4||6||13||
~SGGS Ji p. 98​


In Gurbani it seems the nirgun Parabrahm is Supreme and not specifically sargun Har Krishan although certain pauris do elevate Har Krishan. And this is no contradiction to Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings either because the nondual nirgun is held to be the highest Supreme knowledge of the God. Most of the names for God in Gurbani come directly from Vaishnava bhakti school. For example, "Govinda, Gopala." These are titles of Har Krishan. "Go" is the root meaning "cow." We know gopis as cow maids. Govinda means "herder of cows." Gopala means "protector of cows." The meanings don't vanish or change suddenly. 

ਲੋਚਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਧਰ ਆਨਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਮ ਮੈਨਾ ॥ ਕੈਕੈ ਕਟਾਛ ਚੁਰਾਇ ਲਯੋ ਮਨ ਪੈ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਜੋਊ ਰੱਛਕ ਧੈਨਾ 
Lochan hai jin ke su prabhaa dhar aanan hai jin ko sam mainaa|| Kai-kai kataachh churaae layo man pai tin ko jooo rachchhak dhaeenaa||
They, whose eyes are like lotus and the remaining body like the god of love, their mind has been stolen by Krishna the protector of cows, with signs;
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 763​



ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ । 
kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥ 
jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.

~Displaying Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​



Regardless of someone's personal attitude about validity of Bhai Gurdas vaaran, he did live during time of 4 forms of Guru and was personal scribe of Adi Granth. So, it's not so easy to dismiss his interpretation of Gurbani because it clashes with our own opinions. But listen to what Bhai Gurdas Ji is saying the beej Gurmantar coming from letters that stand for Krishna in particular:

Vishnu. Vasudeyva. Harikrishna. Raam. Govinda.

All names of Bhagavan Krishna in Vaishnava bhakti sampradyas. How can the relationship be ignored? Not one name, title, avtaara for any other deva. If you are going to do any kind of credible analysis of this relationship it can't be overlooked.



> The Vishnu Sahasranama describes Vishnu as the All-Pervading essence of all beings, the master of and beyond the past, present and future, the creator and destroyer of all existences, one who supports, sustains and governs the Universe and originates and develops all elements within. In the Puranas, Vishnu is described as having the divine color of clouds (dark-blue), four-armed, holding a lotus, mace, conch and chakra (wheel). Vishnu is also described in the Bhagavad Gita as having a 'Universal Form' (Vishvarupa) which is beyond the ordinary limits of human sense perception. It is also within the Puranas that the information regarding Vishnu's avatars is given.  Vishnu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> Related to this name is an early religion, sometimes called Bhagavatism that was largely formed by the 4th century BC where Vāsudeva was worshiped as the supreme Deity in a strongly monotheistic format, where the supreme Being was perfect, eternal and full of grace. The name forms part of a famous Krishna mantra also known as a "twelve syllable mantra", which believed to be the earliest mantra from pre-reformation times, pre-dating sectarian divisions in Vaishnavism- (oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya). Vasudeva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



As to Sufi Islam, the fact is they were influenced by Vaishnava Vedanta, which is why they are persecuted to this day in Muslim countries. Sufi schools practice forms of pranayama, intensive meditation and trance ("wajd" related to mastallah or mastana, same as the yogic "God-intoxicated."), some get siddhias and pierce or burn themselves and remain unharmed, they believe in a form of chakra system, samaadhi, and are considered an Advaita religion and not a dualistic monotheism. They practice dhikr which is quite similar to pranayam Naam abhiyaas while japping the name Allah. It's fair to say Sufism is already a synthesis of Islam and bhakti yoga, more than Sikhism is a true synthesis of bhakti Islam and Vaishnav bhakti. It seems to me Sikh religion is influenced by teachings from Sufi Vaishnavism as well as Vaishnav Vedanta more than any true form of Islam.






Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

If you watch the video below, you can see how the Muslims have been influenced by Vaishnava Vedanta sants to create the sect of Sufism with it's intense emphasis on kirtan and Gurmantra as spiritual practices. There is even a Shaivite siddha yoga type influence as well. I don't believe there is any literature whatsoever within Islam which is anything like the yoga and bhakti sutras to explain the mysticism within Sufism. Sufism is heavily influenced by Hindu religion. And my guess is that's because the influences were "true" philosophically, and "worked" yogically as to creating trance states and alterations of consciousness with clear signs of Kundalini awakening, kriyas, etc. Almost everyone would agree, Sufi's have very little in common with orthodox Islam. And some Sufi practices are indistinguishable from a yoga ashram.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ACMyqDDDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWvv8PSntk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yjt7PSZTg8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63WGG1r9s9U




> Kabir Panthis practice Sahaja Yoga which was instigated by Kabir Saheb, himself. Constantly remembering God by repeating Sat Naam or Sohang Sat Naam, subsides the wavering energies of the physical and mental aspects of the individual, thereby making him or her God Conscious. This form of yoga can be practiced by all regardless of their age, ability, background, or any other characteristic.
> 
> Kabir Panthis believe in the simplicity of life as lived by Kabir Saheb, with simple food, clothing and belongings. One should only acquire what is needed for sustenance and not indulge in passions and pleasures of the mind and body, as these only serve to deplete the spiritual energies of the soul. Kabir Panthis are vegetarians and avoid the use of alcohol, tobacco and other intoxicants. Kabir Panthi priests are called Mahants.God or Sat Purush is commonly called by some Kabir Panthis, "sat saheb" or "kabir saheb". Although the Kabir Panthis can be of any religion, most of them claim to be Vaishnava. This is because Kabirdas (servant [of God] Kabir) was a devotee of Lord Rama.





> Kabirpanthi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ 
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ 
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ 
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ 
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ 
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ 
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ 
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ 
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥ 
saaringadhhar bhagavaan beethulaa mai ganath n aavai sarabangaa ||11||
The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||

~SGGS Ji p. 1082   ​



ਨ ਸੰਖੰ ਨ ਚਕ੍ਰੰ ਨ ਗਦਾ ਨ ਸਿਆਮੰ ॥ 
n sankhan n chakran n gadhaa n siaaman ||
God has no conch-shell, no religious mark, no paraphernalia; he does not have blue skin.

ਅਸ੍ਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੰ ਰਹੰਤ ਜਨਮੰ ॥ 
ascharaj roopan rehanth janaman ||
His Form is Wondrous and Amazing. He is beyond incarnation.

ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ ਕਥੰਤਿ ਬੇਦਾ ॥ 
naeth naeth kathhanth baedhaa ||
The Vedas say that He is not this, and not that.

~SGGS Ji p. 1359​





> Since the final word of the Upanisads is neti, neti, "not this, not this,"52 the Absolute can only be designated as tad avacyam, "the unspeakable,"53 that to which vac cannot be applied and from which any word recoils.54 Even this world was, at the beginning, unspoken, unuttered, as one Upanisad says.55



Rather than reading into two apparently contradictory pauris of Gurbani, by Shri Guru Arjun Dev Ji. I think it will make more sense and be closer to the correct interpretation if people realize Guruji is not praising one thing and then negating it later as if He couldn't make up His mind. Guruji is defining the God as formed and formless, having sarguna (perceivable attributes due to manifestation in the materiality and including all consequent shortcomings of being subject to the material world of pakrti which forms the three gunas: essential nature of being: rajo guna, tamo guna and satva guna. Gunas by the way are defined as "string" and also as "tendencies." Guna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The teaching of the Three Gunas is found in the Vaishnava scriptures: Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, and Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. Those writings which elevate Bhagavan Krishna as the Supreme Godhead.




> "Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is accepted as the essence of all Vedic literature and Vedantic philosophy. Whoever tastes the transcendental mellow of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is never attracted to any other literature."(12.13.15)
> 
> The Bhagavata Purana is held in the highest esteem by Vedic tradition, Vaishnavism, and Hinduism in general. Within Vaishnavism (and many other Hindu traditions), no other Hindu text surpasses the Bhagavata Purana in significance or importance. Hindu tradition maintains that the author of the Bhagavata Purana (Veda Vyasa), wrote the Bhagavatam with the intent that it be the summation point of all Vedic literature and philosophy. The Bhagavata Purana is to Vaishnava's and many Hindu's what the Bible is to Christians: the central, and most authoratative, of all Hindu texts. The Bhagavata Purana is considered a natural commentary on the Vedanta-sutra and is used as a textual source for all Vaishnava Theology. Bhagavata Purana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So just reflect for a moment how long ago this teaching was revealed to mankind and only within the last 20 years has modern day physics discovered that "strings" were the basic building blocks of all matter. And Quantum Mechanical theory shows that all matter has a relationship to consciousness at the particle level. This relationship to a perceiver has been described as "tendancies to exist" from the writings of physicist Fritjof Capra based on the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Complex. This is whether Quantum Entanglement and Non-Locality have implications which cause physicists to take a leap into the realm of spirituality and metaphysics to explain, at least theoretically. Quantum Physics with regard to spirituality

I think this shows very clearly that there is a kind of infallibly revealed truth from the God in these teachings. And Guruji was also able to recognize this because He is a God-realized Satguru. I'm completely convinced that Gurbani is absolute truth with no mythology or fake thing in it, except that which is explicitly stated to be mythological by Guruji.



> The principal belief of Vaishnavism is the identification of Vishnu or Narayana as the one Supreme God. While the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, Krishna is considered to be the Supreme God and the source of all avataras.
> 
> This identification is inherited by the many avatars (incarnations) of Vishnu listed in the Puranic texts, but not by other Hindu deities such as Ganesh, Surya or Durga. The latter are instead classified as demi-gods or devas. Some Vaishnavites consider Shiva, one of the Hindu Trimurti (Trinity) as subservient to Vishnu, while being regarded as superior to ordinary living beings (jiva.) However, one school oriented towards Vaishnavism disagrees on this view of Shiva. Swaminarayan, founder of the Hindu Swaminarayan sects (including BAPS), differ and hold that Vishnu and Shiva are different aspects of the same God; see also, verses 47, and 84 of Shikshapatri. Notably, the Swaminarayan view is a minority view among Vaishnavites. A few Vaishnava schools also identify the God of the Abrahamic religions with Vishnu.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishnava





The Vaishnava Vedanta sampradya is primarily a Dvaitic monotheistic philosophy and contrasts with the strictly Advaitist schools in that it makes perfect sense, "Why is Guru praying to God if Guru is God?" Because that is the element of Vaishnav Bhakti teaching which is Dvaitic. However, it is a modified philosophy because of the inclusion of the Advaitist definition of the God in the teaching of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Achintya Bheda Abheda ("inconceivable oneness and difference"). So because of the expanded definition the Supreme God is defined in terms of dualism, sarguna as well as non-dualism, nirguna. So he will have describable attribures such as:



ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. ~SGGS Ji p. 1082​


So contrary to being a negation of the validity of the sargun saroop of Raam Chandra, a Krishan avataar, Gurbani is actually confirming the Gaudiya Vaishnav theology that He is formless and also has a form. God as the Supreme aspect is nirguna, but Gurbani also has a Dvaitist teaching, in that the formless God also takes on a sargun saroop to manifest in sansaara. Advaita means "not two," and refers to the nirgun, attributeless, formless, highest reality of the God.



ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
anthar baahar har prabh eaeko dhoojaa avar n koee ||
Inwardly and outwardly, they saw only the One Lord God; for them there was no other second. ~SGGS Ji p. 445​



> brahma satyam jagan mithya
> jivo brahmaiva napara
> 
> Brahman is the Reality, the universe is an illusion,
> The living being is Brahman alone, none else.
> ~Shankara



And it is clear that this exactly principle is the very definition of Gaudiya Vaishnava school of Vedanta which teaches Dvaita and Advaita and emphasizes devotional kirtan and chanting of Har Krishan and his avataars.





> Vaish.navism is singularly like Sufiism, the resemblance has often been noticed, and need here only be briefly traced.  With the latter the first degree is nâsût or 'humanity' in which man is subject to the law shara, the second tarîkat, 'the way' of spiritualism, the third ´arûf or 'knowledge,' and the fourth hakîkat or 'the truth.' Some writers give a longer series of grades, thus--talab, 'seeking after god;' ishk, 'love;' m´arifat, 'insight;' istighnâh, 'satisfaction;' tauhîd, 'unity;' hairat, 'ecstacy;' and lastly fanâ, 'absorption.' Dealing as it does with God and Man as two factors of a problem, Vaish.navism necessarily ignores the distinctions of caste, and Chaitanya was perfectly consistent in this respect, admitting men of all castes, including Muhammadans, to his sect.   Chaitanya and the Vaishnava Poets of Bengal





~Bhul chak maaf


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## pk70

Sikh80 said:


> *
> The primary reasons may be, I am not so sure of but one can make out things, that the two school of thoughts have many things in common.,Theory of Karma and karmic reaction., The journey of the soul or the science of soul, Broad agreement on the concept  of God and His relationship with the other jivas and the interrelation ship of jivas and.the relation ship of the  God and HIS creation i.e Nirgun and sargun Forms  and  reincarnation and 84 Lakh species and Four Yugas  etc, etc. Further there are very pointed references to Vedas in Bani.
> 
> We do not or may not have similarities of these concepts in Sufiism  or even Islam. This is per my little understanding of the things.
> I cannot take up questions based on this.*


 *Sikh80 ji[/FONT]*
*I am not questioning you but actually will try to share some views in context of your comments.[/FONT]*
*Talking about similarities, there are basic prominent expressions in various religions regardless of their origin. For example, passion, truthfulness etc. All the statements around these expressions create similarities in all religions, all the same, there are basic points that detour them from each other. To dig out such things and to start logically prove that this religion has something to do with that or vise versa is nothing but to create confusion about their individuality. All the religions prior to the new one are destined to leave an impression of similarities, as many say, actually may not be true. To understand this, instead of referring to various scholarly contents, a small example can be taken. For instance, in architecture, buildings are built; basics remain the same save for new designs and new material. Checking the soil before building high rise, securing- aids and new improved material are very similar in all, new concepts, new designs and new needs are which differ fundamentally; still architects keep their identity signatures. Religions, most of them, have common idea of Super power though they may differ in its concept. Guru Nanak verifies himself how he was called upon by the Creator, how a duty of connecting the people with the Creator was bestowed upon him; ( Maajh Kee vaar, P-27, Mehla 1), add to it, Bani was revealed to him by the Creator as per Gurbani. After reading in writing, if some scholars dragging his “panth” to other faiths to justify their own imaginative theories, it doesn’t negate what Guru himself declared in writing. Guru ji was not influenced by prevailed ideology as foolish views surface here and there, actually Guru ji was enlightened by the Creator Himself. In prospect of his enlightenment Guru ji commented on almost all prevailed ideologies. Gurbani is addressed to different people of different caliber, while understanding what Guru Message is all about, people have started making their own nitches and have started their own pseudo faiths within a faith. All the references seen in Guru[/FONT] [/FONT]*
*I am giving you just one quote out of many given quotes to state that how praise of Lord is used to justify a reference based new ideology.*
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ 
guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.
[/FONT]*Wrong translation, why lord Krishna will be companion of Gurmukh since Guru ji is talking about The Creator, this is made clear by Guru ji in next Vaak, read on
[/FONT]*ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ 
dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||
[/FONT]See, about who Guru ji is talking about in the first Guru Vaak-Merciful Lord
[/FONT]ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥ 
nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.
[/FONT]Here HE is addressed as Kesv, too, same Infinite Lord
[/FONT]ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥ 
kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
Millions of people worship His Feet.
[/FONT]Whose feet, of the Creator, the Infinite
[/FONT]ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ 
guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||
[/FONT]Creator is directly addressed as Hari here, why has the translator brought Lord [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] from no where? It is called interpreting Gurbani without understanding the whole Shabad and mould it as per desire.
[/FONT]ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ 
amogh dharasan baeanth apaaraa ||
Forever fruitful is the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; He is Infinite and Incomparable.
[/FONT]Now see, Infinite expression is clear, there is no reference of any other Sargun Sroop, therefore Guru Vaak is used to enforce  some one's own views.
SO FACT REMAINS THAT GURBANI IS REVEALED BUT UNSUUCCESSFULLY OTHER INFLUENCES ARE STATED. 


 [/FONT]


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## Astroboy

This is the latest on Sufi Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aeoiLAosdA


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## pk70

namjap said:


> This is the latest on Sufi Islam
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aeoiLAosdA



*namjapji

Thanks for posting that video inf., question, what are they singing while dancing? I couldn't make any thing out of it, is it any sufi klaam?*


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

pk70 said:


> *Guru Nanak Never Questioned the Creator*
> 
> 
> Most of the scholars that I am aware of, interpreted Guru Nanak’s shabad which starts with “khurasaan khasmana kia.” quite contrary to Guru ji’s love for the Creator. It was never acceptable to me that Guru ji would use such language for the Creator. We must reread and understand the whole shabad along with other Guru- Vaakas which support Guru ji’s unconditional love for the Creator. First lets have a look on those Guru Vaakas which prove that in Guru ji’s mind, The Creator is beyond error, before we decipher what Guru ji is actually stating in that shabad (khurasaan Khasmana Kia (SGGS 360).
> ਪੰਨਾ 61, ਸਤਰ 7[/FONT][/FONT]
> ਭੁਲਣਅੰਦਰਿਸਭੁਕੋ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਗੁਰੂਕਰਤਾਰੁ॥
> भुलणअंदरिसभुकोअभुलुगुरूकरतारु॥
> Bẖulaṇ anḏar sabẖ ko abẖul gurū karṯār.
> Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru and the Creator are infallible.
> ਮਃ 1 Sri Rag Mehla 1 SGGS 61)
> Whatever happens, it is right though it can look bad to others. Question is raised or addressed to those who make mistakes. He doesn’t make mistake at all then why to question HIM
> Again
> ਕਰਤਾਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ੁ ਹੈਨਭੁਲੈਕਿਸੈਦਾਭੁਲਾਇਆ॥
> करताआपिअभुलुहैनभुलैकिसैदाभुलाइआ॥
> Karṯā āp abẖul hai na bẖulai kisai ḏā bẖulā*i*ā.
> The Creator Himself is infallible and above be fooling.
> Also Mehla 4
> ] qU krih su scy hoiesI qw kwiequ kVIAY ]3]  {pMnw 301}
> When, what Thou doest, O True Lord, that alone happens, then why should we grieve?
> Why God loving will question HIM?
> pauVI ] qU krqw Awip ABulu hY Bulx ivic nwhI ] qU krih su scy Blw hY gur sbid buJwhI ]301
> The creator is infallible, He is beyond it. Guru Shabad  makes us realize that whatever He does is right.(He just doesn’t do any thing wrong, period, this is the way His Bhagatas look at Him because they have experienced Him and understood His Will.
> ਤੂਕਰਤਾਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ੁ ਹੈਭੁਲਣਵਿਚਿਨਾਹੀ॥
> तूकरताआपिअभुलुहैभुलणविचिनाही॥
> Ŧū karṯā āp abẖul hai bẖulaṇ vicẖ nāhī.
> O Creator Lord, You yourself are infallible; you never make mistakes.
> M 4 553
> As He is beyond error, why Guru ji will question Him?
> More
> ਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਨਭੁਲੈਕਬਹੀਸਭੁਸਚੁਤਪਾਵਸੁਸਚੁਥਿਆ॥
> आपिअभुलुनभुलैकबहीसभुसचुतपावसुसचुथिआ॥
> Āp abẖul na bẖulai kab hī sabẖ sacẖṯapāvas sacẖ thi*ā.
> He never errs; the justice of the True Lord is totally True(553)
> More:
> ਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਨਭੁਲਈਪਿਆਰਾਅਵਰੁਨਦੂਜਾਜਾਪੈ॥੨॥
> आपिअभुलुनभुलईपिआराअवरुनदूजाजापै॥२॥
> Āp abẖul na bẖul*ī pi*ārā avar na ḏūjā jāpai. ||2||
> The Beloved Himself is infallible; He makes no mistakes. There is no other like Him to be seen. ||2|| 605)
> There is more on His infinity and His being infallible
> ਕੀਮਤਿਸੋਪਾਵੈਆਪਿਜਾਣਾਵੈਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ਨਭੁਲਏ॥( 767)
> कीमतिसोपावैआपिजाणावैआपिअभुलुनभुलए॥
> Kīmaṯ so pāvai āp jāṇāvai āp abẖul na bẖul*ė.
> He alone can estimate the Lord's value, whom the Lord Himself causes to know. He is not mistaken; He does not make mistakes1022
> Strongly it is said again
> ਆਪਿ*ਅਭੁਲ*ੁ ਨਕਬਹੂਭੁਲਾ॥
> आपिअभुलुनकबहूभुला॥
> Āp abẖul na kabhū bẖulā.
> He Himself is infallible; He never makes mistakes.M-3
> 
> Now in Rag Basant SGGS 1174 His infallibility is crystal clear
> ] Awip ABulu scw scu soie ] hoir siB BUlih dUjY piq Koie ]
> Beyond error is the Eternal Lord, all others are to error and due to lose respect.
> All these above quoted Vaakas have stated about His being infallible, then why to question Him? In the same token, *why would Guru ji question the infallible?* If powerful lion attacks crowd of sheep, even then, why infallible be questioned, it is just matter of understanding His Hukm, who understands, he/she never questions Him. What I see, scholars just fail to honor that status Guru ji repeatedly gives to Him. just merely looking at the vaak” Tain ki dard na aayeea( Didn’t you feel pity?), one can not  conclude Guru ji  has questioned Him because Guru ji  *hasn’t ever questioned HIM  at all.*
> *So then why does Guru ji write it? Let’s find the answer in the Shabad itself.*
> Here is the Shabad and, I shall try to explain what vaak is addressed to whom and what message Guru ji is trying to covey.
> Awsw mhlw 1 ] Kurwswn Ksmwnw kIAw ihMdusqwnu frwieAw ] AwpY dosu n dyeI krqw jmu kir muglu cVwieAw ] eyqI mwr peI krlwxy qYN kI drdu n AwieAw ]1] krqw qUM sBnw kw soeI ] jy skqw skqy kau mwry qw min rosu n hoeI ]1] rhwau ] skqw sIhu mwry pY vgY KsmY sw pursweI ] rqn ivgwiV ivgoey kuqéØI muieAw swr n kweI ] ............................]3]5]39] {pMnw 360}
> ( In essence: After leaving Khurasan to someone’s care,  Baabar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself takes no blame as He has sent the Mugal, the messenger of death. . People were asking God’, after that so much slaughtering and cries, haven’t you felt pity?  || 1 ||    If some powerful one strikes out against another powerful equal, then no one feels any grief because both are equals.  || 1 ||  Pause  ||   But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, its the master who is questioned then . Jewel like humans are murdered by killer-dogs, no body cares about the dead”
> Above, from the beginning of the Shabad, to "moeeaa saar na kaee( no body cares about the dead) [/FONT]*Guru ji describes the views of the people who witnessed the attack and Guru ji heard them talking about it[/FONT]*.[/FONT] They say,” God doesn’t take blame, He sends some one to do heinous crimes. It is acceptable if both are equals and fight and die but when so strong one [/FONT]   attacks so week, He should be questioned because He is the Master,  so we are asking doesn’t he feel pity or compassion, precious lives are taken”.
> After describing  opinions of people around him,*Guru ji responds, he doesn’t question his Lord but praise Him and His Ordinance, here Guru ji inserts his views on it “* Awpy joiV ivCoVy Awpy vyKu qyrI vifAweI ]2] jy ko nwau Drwey vfw swd kry min Bwxy ] KsmY ndrI kIVw AwvY jyqy cugY dwxy ] mir mir jIvY qw ikCu pwey nwnk nwmu vKwx”y ]3]5]39] {pMnw 360}
> .” You yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness.  || 2 ||   One may have a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind, but in the Eyes of the Lord the Master, he/she is just a worm eating all corn it can eat.( What happens to them some time who indulge deeply in luxuries and forgot Him and responsibility, is clear in the attack,  so why to blame Him?)  Nanak says only that one lives without any vice (free from ego, lust, greed etc)) by meditating on His Naam and singing His praises, obtains His blessings (others don’t)  || 3 || 5 || 39 ||”
> Message is clear; people blame GOD but rarely take responsibility. Guru ji stresses that People blame HIM for their own short comings which make such things inevitable. Why the rulers got lost in luxuries and vices?  They should have been ready to do protection too. Whatever Babar had, they had it, did they use it? No. Why? Answer is because they were asleep in luxurious life styles.  Why to blame The Creator then?. He unites and He separates, it is all His glory. Before Him, regardless how one gets big with name or wealth (whatever), is merely like worm in His eyes( in public's eyes they may be called jewels). Only those go with respect from here who stay tuned to Him.
> *Obviously Guru ji is looking all this by understanding HIS Ordinance, others don’t. Scholars just missed what Guru ji intended to say in this Shabad; “The creator is infallible always, when luxurious life is preferred over Dharma, tragedies are inevitable.*
> 
> *G Singh*





Pk70 ji,

I disagree with your analysis. The shabad you have quoted is a Human response to the barbaric act by Guru ji. Guru ji lived a life like a human. So why is it that Guru ji cannot give a human response to the incident. What ever god does is his Leela. Because we live a life of duality we fail to understand due to our emotions. 

Life incidents are designed to teach us a lesson. If everything is done as per the plans of God then why do we cry out and complain. When we do some good we jump to take credit. When something bad happens we try to find an escape goat. Why not then accept the fault is ones own. We will have no problems. If God is responsible for both good and bad and he decides to take it out on us because we belong to him, our body is his then why not sit and accept it. The martyrdom is Guru Arjan Dev ji is a prime example of the accepting the Will / Hukam without complaints.

Guru Nanak Dev ji is fully aware of the situation as to why what is happening. If he does not comment as a human being he would have been called hard hearted being. Our perception of Guru ji after over 500 years of reading about him is bound to be different to being in his presence whilst in human form.
After the Rahao "ਆਪੇ  ਜੋੜਿ  ਵਿਛੋੜੇ  ਆਪੇ  ਵੇਖੁ  ਤੇਰੀ  ਵਡਿਆਈ " he is accepting Gods will. The problem is we sometime get carried away with our personal thoughts. Pk70ji you have a very inquisitive mind. Plz read the verses again and again both in subjective and objective mode. Do not make quick decisions.

Please feel free to accept or reject my explanation as your conscious allows.

ekmusafir_ajnabi.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> After reading in writing, if some scholars dragging his “panth” to other faiths to justify their own imaginative theories, it doesn’t negate what Guru himself declared in writing. Guru ji was not influenced by prevailed ideology as foolish views surface here and there, actually Guru ji was enlightened by the Creator Himself. In prospect of his enlightenment Guru ji commented on almost all prevailed ideologies. Gurbani is addressed to different people of different caliber, while understanding what Guru Message is all about, people have started making their own nitches and have started their own pseudo faiths within a faith.



The fact remains veer ji, these aren't new pseudo faiths but a well established sanatan tradition existing within Sikhism from the beginning.  You cannot wish away Shri Chand Yogi and sanatan Udasi Panth.  You cannot ignore sanatan Nirmala Panth and sanatan Nihang Panth.  You cannot ignore the entire message of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is based on Vedic thought and Upanishads which clear Vaishnava themes, in particular breaking down caste barriers, japping Gurmantra to obtain mukti.  You cannot ignore the existence of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani with it's almost total allusions to lessons from Hinduism, and even if YOU don't accept it, Akal Takht and majority of the Sikh Panth does including Nirmalas and Nihangs.  You don't have to accept but you can't ignore sanatan Naamdhari's either.

So what you're failing to acknowledge is these insights aren't even new.  They've been around for hundreds of years right alongside Sikhism from the beginning.  Accept it or not, these aren't even radical views.  They just happen to belong to a minority voice which has always existed within the Panth or alongside it.




> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
> guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
> The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.
> _Wrong translation, why lord Krishna will be companion of Gurmukh since Guru ji is talking about The Creator..._
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
> guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
> He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||
> _Creator is directly addressed as Hari here, why has the translator brought Lord Krishnafrom no where? It is called interpreting Gurbani without understanding the whole Shabad and mould it as per desire._


Are you really not able to read the whole Guru vaak which is describing the Lord as Krishna?  Here, let me help you.



ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.  

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. 

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||  

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.  

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.  

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||  

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.  

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. 

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5|| 

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God. 

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ 
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor. 

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| 

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.  

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ 
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed. 

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7|| 

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.  

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.  

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||  

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.  

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.  

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
*saaval* sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| 

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.  

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| 

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
​


Gurbani has described clearly that the One Supreme formless Lord is in fact manifested as Bhagavan Krishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaaras.  So it makes perfect sense what is described in Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, namely that the Vahiguru Gurmantra of the Sikhs is Vaishnava mantra of Harikrishan and his titles and avtaaras.  Gurbani is also clear which Name of God which is being chanted: Ram.  Gobinda.  Gopala.  Krishan. Vasudeyva.    The sarguna of God is Harikrishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaars of whom Gurbani says, Guruji is the avtaar in this lineage for the Kaliyug.  If there are some teachings which parallel Vaishnava Vedanta it is one thing to see brotherhood of similarity.  When names of Guru's forms are also Arjun after the charioteer in Bhagavad-Gita, Ramdas, HarGobind, HarKrishan, Gobind, again not one was named for Ali Khan or something Islamic, or even for devas subordinated by Vaishnava tradition.   So this is has to be a Vaishnava philosophy.  When the God Himself is described as HariKrishan and after Krishan avtaaras, and not merely names but entire unmistakeable descriptions, such as flute, Vrindaban, gopis, blue-black skin, and entire lineage of avtaaras acknowledged.  Is Narasingh (man-lion) Krishan avtaara the origin of Singhs?  Probably.  The salvific Naam Gurmantra is the Vaishnava tradition of the Harikrishna Naam.  it's no longer mere similarity anymore.  And that is my honest and impartial opinion which I did not even have before I began this study when I recognized kechari mudra being described in Gurbani and even found it mentioned in Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji.  You know, I'm not trying to offend anyones beliefs.  Certainly I can respect different viewpoints.  But honestly I can't come to any other conclusion.  The evidence to me is overwhelming.




ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu. 

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.   

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ । 
kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.   

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥ 
jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
​


We've had discussions before about sacrifice of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji to protect Hindu religion.


ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.
~Bachitra Natak p. 131 Shri Dasam Granth​



ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ 
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 923​

I just believe some things can't be overlooked.  One has to ask, "Whose tilak mark was Guruji protecting?  I think some perspectives have been added to the story.  


~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


----------



## Astroboy

The light of myriads of crest jewels​​is of no consequence,
And so also is the luster of millions of suns and moons
of no value,
As compared to the scintillating light of him in whom​
He dwells,
And this happens only when countless merits earned
in past lives fructify together;
Siva, Sanakadic and Brahma also wish for the company
of such a noble soul,
And he obtains the merit of​​all the pilgrimages
In whose forehead shines the light of His sight,​
The sight of His Lotus Feet flaming in his forehead
Kabit Savai 421
*BHAI GURDAS
*


----------



## pk70

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Pk70 ji,
> 
> *I welcome your comments. I feel honored to respond to them; who is wrong or right Lord knows. Some of your views actually are same as mine; however, I have questions on your following quote if you don’t mind. *
> ( quote)
> If he does not comment as a human being he would have been called hard hearted being”
> *What I see in the totality of Gurbani is different. I look at what Guru ji said almost about every thing in context of His Ordinance. *
> *Why Guru Nanak would feel insecure if he wouldn’t question the Lord?  Gurbani says that Bhagats and materialistic people can never get along due to their different approach towards life and God. Why would Guru ji get concerned by those people’s judgment who have failed to understand His Ordinance? People called Guru ji” Bhootna, Betala, Vichara” due to their lack of understanding of His divine Grace Lord bestowed on him. He didn’t get bothered because of their foolish comments; instead he questioned their claim of being close to Lord through Hippocratic ways. Guru ji never actually bothered what other say about him. Take another example, talking on death, Guru ji calls people fools who cry over it since it is just a call from HIM, it is a fundamental truth, who comes is destined to go. He never cared what people would say about his comments on death of a young ( Raag Maroo M-1 and Raag Vad hans Mehla 1).  Through out Guru Granth Sahib ji, Lord’s being beyond error is stressed, why Guru ji would question HIM just to please people?  I feel, main purpose was to make people aware that whom people think are jewels, actually are  equal to an insect in Lord’s eyes if the soul has forgotten Him, if sources are not used to protect, tragedies are inevitable. Now let’s analyze Guru’s being human as you stated. Even being human, Guru ji defies all what humans do in context of religious and social traditions, never fall for them to please any one, why would he violate His basic Ordinance to please the ignorant? His “bhana” is actually described by Guru ji not by questioning Him but by letting people know to grow up instead of blaming HIM. Ek musafor ajnabi ji, some of your views are actually aligned with what I felt after reading Guru Shabad keeping in mind totality of Guru Message about His Ordinance, here are your comments supporting my views in context of His Ordinance.*
> *(quote Ek Musafir ajnabi ji)*
> . Life incidents are designed to teach us a lesson. If everything is done as per the plans of God then why do we cry out and complain. When we do some good we jump to take credit. When something bad happens we try to find an escape goat. Why not then accept the fault is ones own. We will have no problems. If God is responsible for both good and bad and he decides to take it out on us because we belong to him, our body is his then why not sit and accept it. The martyrdom is Guru Arjan Dev ji is a prime example of the accepting the Will / Hukam without complaints.
> 
> *In the Guru Vaak Guru ji (*"ਆਪੇ ਜੋੜਿ ਵਿਛੋੜੇ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ )* promotes His Bhana, why would he question HIM in the first place to please people? Aren’t you with me that Guru ji, Sant and enlightened ones remain above praise or criticism, why would then Guru ji be bothered if people would call him hard hearted being?*
> 
> (Quote )Please feel free to accept or reject my explanation as your conscious allows.
> 
> *Personally I thank you for sharing your views with me, your great understanding of  Gurbani became many times “ a wake up call” for me at least. So keep it up please.*.


----------



## pk70

*Respected Bhain ji,*
*As we both are aware we are totally on opposite sides in understanding Gurbani and its application. You look at the references as true stories to attach them to other sources and  call Gurbani based upon Veda etc; however, contrary to that, I see it was revealed to Guru Nanak ji and references are merely to negate their negative effect on the followers ,  references and similarities do not prove Gurbani’s origin is Veda etc. especially when Guru ji himself shares with his followers ( Vaar Maagh ki P 27) his experience of a moment with the LORD when he was called upon and what HE Himself assigned him to do-His praise. ( all the prevailed religions and scriptures couldn’t do any thing  good to him- Guru)  As per Guru ji’s own word that call resulted in Naam promotion. For that reason Guru ji had to criticise incorrect practices of all prevailed religions His addressing almost all prevailed faith/ sects proves that Guru ji  is promoting some thing before was not done right way or got corrupted.To clarify ones own message, references are must. Going from Guru Granth Sahib Ji to Bhai Gurdaas’s Vaaran and Dasm Granth doesn’t make any one more convincing provided Gurubani Message is kept intact. When we discuss all this, there is no question of who we believe in as final authority since we are just discussing Gurbani and we need none save for our efforts to understand Gurbani correctly  as it is in poetic form, a lot of explanation is needed but Guru Message in totality should be kept in mind so that these illusions can be removed. I am only concerned when Gurbani is used not as per Guru Message but to prove some thing one suddenly thought of after studying various philosophies or faiths. Probably last time again I am going to comment on your recent quote which doesn’t say what you believe it says. Let’s start with your latest one. Then I shall comment on your quote of Bhai Gurdaas ji from other thread which is also misquoted.( Translation is not great, we will strict ourselves to the main idea only)*

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā*iṇ. Ḏāṛā agrė paritham ḏẖarā*iṇ. Bāvan rūp kī*ā ṯuḏẖ karṯė sabẖ hī sėṯī hai cẖanga. ||3|| 
The Lord is the support of the earth, the man-lion and Primal being.   [/FONT]Thou, O Lord, are the Upholder of the earth with Thine for teeth.   [/FONT]Thou, O creator, assumed the form of a pigmy and are the sublime Lord of all*.** 
[/FONT]* *.   Look at the Vaak” seti hai changa, means  still only you are sublime of all, that is what Guru ji is preaching here.*
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā. Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā. Sahas nėṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4|| 
Thou alone are Ramchand, who has no form and outline. Thou, O flower-gift God, of fascinating sight, has a quoit in Thy hand. Thou has thousands of forms. Thou alone are the Giver and all others are beggars. 
*Again here Guru’s **surat**( attention) is not on His created devtas but on HIM, look at” sehas netr moorat” it is definition of His sargun Sroop.  Who are called great, they are beggars in Guru’s views when compared to HIM. What a Sikh learns from it, to contemplate on HIM not to propagate old theories about Devtas because they are beggars at His court. Your translator uses the word” Great Ram Chand” where is a word” great in Guru Vaak”? Imagination rather nostalgia! Alone stands is HIM the GIVER to all, rest are the beggars, period, that is what Guru ji is promoting through these reference.*

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthė. Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthė. Bāsuḏėv niranjan ḏāṯė baran na sāka*o guṇ angā. ||5|| 
Thou, O Lord, are the lover of Thine devotees and the Patron of the patronless. The Lord of milk-maids is ever with every one. O my beneficent and Immaculate Luminous Lord. I can describe not thine Praise even a bit. 
*Again here Guru ji is praising His Sargun existence without letting up praise of His being Infinite.  See the words in red, convey the inability to express HIM( inexpressible, infinite), all others are explainable otherwise.*
ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā*iṇ. Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ. Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6|| 
My Beauteous Lord is the Giver of salvation and the spouse of wealth. He, the Lord, is the Saviour of Daropadi, from the clutches of the destroyers of her honour. The Detached Lord of mammon does the wondrous deeds, sports and makes merry. 
*Here be advised, saving of Dropati is not credited to Krishana but to the Lord Himself, sticking on a story will not do just what Guru ji is promoting.  When Devtas are called beggars what importance they have left before His Mighty power?*
*Even in Gurbani Guru ji declares all credit to Him when Guru ji is revered in high esteem.*
ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa*o. Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏė nāhī kẖa*o. Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7|| 
Fruitful is His sight and Immortal His form, which perishes not ever, he is unborn and self-illumined. O my Imperishable, Eternal and Inapprehensible, Lord, Everything is attached to Thee. 
*Reread above Vaak, Guru ji directly expressing His being as beyond birth and death. This Shabad is just a praise of the Lord in context of His Sargun Sroop, nothing more than that.  Don’t you learn something that all credit and praise are given to the Lord here and why?. Guru ji will keep mentioning all prevailed super beings but suddenly reduces them to be merely expression of His Sargun Sroop and all credits of establishments are given to HIM.  Bhian ji, you can keep giving quotes after quotes, it doesn’t mean what you think is promoted by Gurbani because just names there you see are not to verify their big deals but His play and His mighty power to be understood. Purpose of all is to take the follower directly to the source- Lord.*
ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ kė vāsī. Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi*ā a*uṯrāsī. Kėsav cẖalaṯ karahi nirālė kīṯā loṛeh so ho*igā. ||8|| 
God, the lover of eminence, abides in Heaven, In His will, the Lord came in the from of the Big Fish and the Tortoise. The Lord of Beauteous hair, does wondrous deeds and what He wishes to do, that alone comes to pass. 
*Here again every thing is attributed to His Ordinance, in Gurbani, there is none great but HIM and His establishments as Sargun sroop too. His Nirgun form is put in the first place in JapJi  and stamp of His Nirgun Form is repeated through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji; it has a meaning Bhainji, its not repeated without any purpose;  it has a big purpose; main message is that seeker should not get confused with His manifestation and should remain out  of duality. All Gurbani is extended explanation of Japji( I am glad some friends of mine support that fact too), the more you study Gurbani in context of Japji, the more Guru Message becomes clear. My source is more “ the interpretation of Gurbani within Guru Granth Sahib ji than all other stories told here or there.*


    The sarguna of God is Harikrishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaars of whom Gurbani says, Guruji is the avtaar in this lineage for the Kaliyug
*Please don’t get influenced by stories. Guru ji attributed all Names of prevailed so called Devtas/Gods to the LORD. For Guru ji, He is Krishan, Ram, Vasudev etc but the difference  between those so called gods and the Lord is that they came and went due to physical body they had to wear and the Nirgun stays because He permeates in His creation but never ever had a body. It is so simple.*
    The fact remains veer ji, these aren't new pseudo faiths but a well established sanatan tradition existing within Sikhism from the beginning. You cannot wish away Shri Chand Yogi and sanatan Udasi Panth. You cannot ignore sanatan Nirmala Panth and sanatan Nihang Panth. You cannot ignore the entire message of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is based on Vedic thought and Upanishads which clear Vaishnava themesn particular breaking down caste barriers, japping Gurmantra to obtain mukti. You cannot ignore the existence of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani with it's almost total allusions to lessons from Hinduism, and even if YOU don't accept it, Akal Takht and majority of the Sikh Panth does including Nirmalas and Nihangs. You don't have to accept but you can't ignore sanatan Naamdhari's either.
  Gurbani has described clearly that the One Supreme formless Lord is in fact manifested as Bhagavan Krishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaaras. So it makes perfect sense what is described in Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, namely that the Vahiguru Gurmantra of the Sikhs is Vaishnava mantra of Harikrishan and his titles and avtaaras
* My respected Bhain ji, when you admit HE manifest in avtaras, how could you deny we are also His manifestation. We agree on His both forms, Sargun and Nirgun, interestingly we long for His Nirgun Form only. Guru ji pines for that Nirgun Lord( SGGS 877) asking others to help to see Him with in, then points out barrier between that Nirgun Sroop and us. Why we need this confusion over those  who are declared not helpful compared to Gurbani in pursuit of Realizing HIM? Why seekers need to learn about Vedas etc. Namjap ji question” can some one tell in simple words about Him, what to do and how to realize” Why he is asking that?  It doesn’t mean he doesn’t know about Nirgun form and sargun form or Gurbani. What triggers him to question that? Answer lies in our academic debates which is nothing but drums of ignorance*.
     Also quote of H K Khalsa frm understanding
*Bhain ji lets see what Bhai Sahib Gurdaas ji is saying*
ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 

 satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu. 
*Here as Guru ji did, Bhai sahib is commenting on what is going on before Guru
*[/FONT] *Nanak, no need to sticking to any of these reference, bear with me, why, I shall let you know in the end.*
ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari. 
*Again about the next story
*ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.
*Another story
*ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ । 
kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited. 
*Here note it down,so called Kalyug is purified by the grace of the Lord as through Nanak HE got His NAME” GOBIND” be contemplated. If we go by your approach, Gobind means Krishan, as you are aware Guru ji promoted Lord’s name not **Krishna**’s name; obviously Bhai Sahib ji is saying that He the Creator has made people remember Him through Guru Nanak. Now reread last Vaak.
*ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.
ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,
ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥
*What miracle happened  in so called bad times "Kalyug"( which is not in fact), all letters  of yuga” vava, haha, gagga and rara are made together by Guru Nanak and it has become” Wahaguru” the real name of the Lord. So from where it came eventually merged in it. Bhai Sahib ji is promoting Guru ji’s NAAM SIMRAN of HIM not others as you see. Here also it becomes very clear why we differ so strongly. Any way you are entitled to your views as I do but I see no reconciliation in context of these quotes.

*ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥ 
jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
*NOTE  Guru Teg Bahadar Ji's sacrfice is not limited to Hindu Janeo protection as many propagate, jealousy of Ram Rai House and other meenas,undertone opposition by funatic Hinduas and Muslims along with extremely funatic approach of Empror Aurangzeb  also contributed to Guru ji's scarifice. Persian references reveal how Guru ji was being portrayed as a dangerous one by these jealous opposition, amazingly contrary to Guru ji Hymns and Teachings and way of living. So it is better not to use this great scarifice of Guru ji to prove any other myths. Thanks for sharing your views.
*


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## Randip Singh

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> This is my opinion based on studying the concepts and philosophical system in Gurbani itself. It is not my decision to say to Guru, "Pick these concepts instead of those."
> 
> As to why not another faith, I think it's beyond obvious that Guruji lived in a certain geographical region at a particular time in history. Guruji belongs to the traditions of India, and not the Western countries. And undeniably the Vaishnava influence is so strong, even to the same philosophical positions which differs from other schools of Vedanta. For example Gurbani completely subordinates every deva to the nirgun Parabrahm. And in particular says this about Shiva:
> 
> ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ ॥
> breham giaanee ko khojehi mehaesur ||
> The God-conscious being is sought by the great god Shiva.
> 
> ~SGGS Ji p. 273​The Shaivite sampradyas and the Vaishnav sampradyas are always having conflicts because the Vaishnav tradition always subordinates Shiv below even a God-conscious human being. The argument that Bramalok and Shivalok are marginal because still in materiality is also a Vaishnav teaching which annoys most other schools of Hinduism.
> 
> 
> ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
> siv puree breham eindhr puree nihachal ko thhaao naahi ||
> The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.
> 
> ~SGGS Ji p. 214​So these kind of concepts in Gurbani just point to close relationship of Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani, more so than evidence of Guruji correcting faults in Hindu teaching in general. Because Gurbani is nearly identical to Vaishnav Vedantic theology on several points, how could it be correcting faults of Hinduism and reject validity of Vaishnav Vedanta? Just to generalize that all Hindus worship Shiva as Mahadeva, and then read Gurbani subordinating Shiva and Brahma is not correct to infer a contrary teaching. It is Gaudiya Vaishnava school of philosophy to teach this, and also subordination of Vishnu to Krsna. Only Har Krishan is equated as the Supreme nirgun Parabrahm.
> 
> 
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
> guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
> The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.
> 
> ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
> dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
> The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||
> 
> ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
> nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
> He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.
> 
> ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
> kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
> Millions of people worship His Feet.
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
> guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
> He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||
> 
> ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
> amogh dharasan baeanth apaaraa ||
> Forever fruitful is the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; He is Infinite and Incomparable.
> 
> ਵਡ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸਦਾ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥
> vadd samarathh sadhaa dhaathaaraa ||
> He is Awesome and All-powerful; He is forever the Great Giver.
> 
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੀਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਗਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਰਲੀ ਜਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੬॥੧੩॥
> guramukh naam japeeai thith thareeai gath naanak viralee jaathee jeeo ||4||6||13||
> As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and you shall be carried across. O Nanak, rare are those who know this state! ||4||6||13||
> ~SGGS Ji p. 98​
> In Gurbani it seems the nirgun Parabrahm is Supreme and not specifically sargun Har Krishan although certain pauris do elevate Har Krishan. And this is no contradiction to Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings either because the nondual nirgun is held to be the highest Supreme knowledge of the God. Most of the names for God in Gurbani come directly from Vaishnava bhakti school. For example, "Govinda, Gopala." These are titles of Har Krishan. "Go" is the root meaning "cow." We know gopis as cow maids. Govinda means "herder of cows." Gopala means "protector of cows." The meanings don't vanish or change suddenly.
> ਲੋਚਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਧਰ ਆਨਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਮ ਮੈਨਾ ॥ ਕੈਕੈ ਕਟਾਛ ਚੁਰਾਇ ਲਯੋ ਮਨ ਪੈ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਜੋਊ ਰੱਛਕ ਧੈਨਾ
> Lochan hai jin ke su prabhaa dhar aanan hai jin ko sam mainaa|| Kai-kai kataachh churaae layo man pai tin ko jooo rachchhak dhaeenaa||
> They, whose eyes are like lotus and the remaining body like the god of love, their mind has been stolen by Krishna the protector of cows, with signs;
> ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 763​
> ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
> satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
> In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.
> 
> ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
> duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
> The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.
> 
> ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।
> taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
> In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.
> 
> ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।
> kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
> In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.
> 
> ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।
> chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
> The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.
> 
> ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
> chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
> When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,
> 
> ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥
> jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
> The jiv merges again in its origin.
> 
> ~Displaying Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​
> 
> Regardless of someone's personal attitude about validity of Bhai Gurdas vaaran, he did live during time of 4 forms of Guru and was personal scribe of Adi Granth. So, it's not so easy to dismiss his interpretation of Gurbani because it clashes with our own opinions. But listen to what Bhai Gurdas Ji is saying the beej Gurmantar coming from letters that stand for Krishna in particular:
> 
> Vishnu. Vasudeyva. Harikrishna. Raam. Govinda.
> 
> All names of Bhagavan Krishna in Vaishnava bhakti sampradyas. How can the relationship be ignored? Not one name, title, avtaara for any other deva. If you are going to do any kind of credible analysis of this relationship it can't be overlooked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to Sufi Islam, the fact is they were influenced by Vaishnava Vedanta, which is why they are persecuted to this day in Muslim countries. Sufi schools practice forms of pranayama, intensive meditation and trance ("wajd" related to mastallah or mastana, same as the yogic "God-intoxicated."), some get siddhias and pierce or burn themselves and remain unharmed, they believe in a form of chakra system, samaadhi, and are considered an Advaita religion and not a dualistic monotheism. They practice dhikr which is quite similar to pranayam Naam abhiyaas while japping the name Allah. It's fair to say Sufism is already a synthesis of Islam and bhakti yoga, more than Sikhism is a true synthesis of bhakti Islam and Vaishnav bhakti. It seems to me Sikh religion is influenced by teachings from Sufi Vaishnavism as well as Vaishnav Vedanta more than any true form of Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
> 
> If you watch the video below, you can see how the Muslims have been influenced by Vaishnava Vedanta sants to create the sect of Sufism with it's intense emphasis on kirtan and Gurmantra as spiritual practices. There is even a Shaivite siddha yoga type influence as well. I don't believe there is any literature whatsoever within Islam which is anything like the yoga and bhakti sutras to explain the mysticism within Sufism. Sufism is heavily influenced by Hindu religion. And my guess is that's because the influences were "true" philosophically, and "worked" yogically as to creating trance states and alterations of consciousness with clear signs of Kundalini awakening, kriyas, etc. Almost everyone would agree, Sufi's have very little in common with orthodox Islam. And some Sufi practices are indistinguishable from a yoga ashram.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ACMyqDDDg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWvv8PSntk
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yjt7PSZTg8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63WGG1r9s9U
> 
> 
> 
> ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
> achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
> The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.
> 
> ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
> madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
> He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.
> 
> ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
> rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
> The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||
> 
> ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
> mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
> The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.
> 
> ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
> jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
> The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.
> 
> ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
> jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
> The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||
> 
> ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
> dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
> The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.
> 
> ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
> dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
> The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.
> 
> ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
> baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
> O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||
> 
> ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
> sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
> You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
> 
> ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
> banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
> Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.
> 
> ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
> sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
> You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||
> 
> ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
> bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
> You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.
> 
> ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
> gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
> The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.
> 
> ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
> baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
> O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5
> 
> ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
> mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
> Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.
> 
> ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
> dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
> Savior of Dropadi's honor.
> 
> ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
> kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
> Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||
> 
> ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
> amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
> The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.
> 
> ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
> akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
> His form is undying; it is never destroyed.
> 
> ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
> abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
> O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||
> 
> ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
> sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
> The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.
> 
> ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
> mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
> By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
> 
> ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
> kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
> The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||
> 
> ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
> niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
> He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.
> 
> ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
> dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
> He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.
> 
> ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
> saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
> He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
> 
> ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
> banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
> He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.
> 
> ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
> sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
> His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.
> 
> ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
> sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
> He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||
> 
> ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
> peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
> The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.
> 
> ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
> jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
> The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
> 
> ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
> saaringadhhar bhagavaan beethulaa mai ganath n aavai sarabangaa ||11||
> The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||
> 
> ~SGGS Ji p. 1082   ​
> ਨ ਸੰਖੰ ਨ ਚਕ੍ਰੰ ਨ ਗਦਾ ਨ ਸਿਆਮੰ ॥
> n sankhan n chakran n gadhaa n siaaman ||
> God has no conch-shell, no religious mark, no paraphernalia; he does not have blue skin.
> 
> ਅਸ੍ਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੰ ਰਹੰਤ ਜਨਮੰ ॥
> ascharaj roopan rehanth janaman ||
> His Form is Wondrous and Amazing. He is beyond incarnation.
> 
> ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ ਕਥੰਤਿ ਬੇਦਾ ॥
> naeth naeth kathhanth baedhaa ||
> The Vedas say that He is not this, and not that.
> 
> ~SGGS Ji p. 1359​
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than reading into two apparently contradictory pauris of Gurbani, by Shri Guru Arjun Dev Ji. I think it will make more sense and be closer to the correct interpretation if people realize Guruji is not praising one thing and then negating it later as if He couldn't make up His mind. Guruji is defining the God as formed and formless, having sarguna (perceivable attributes due to manifestation in the materiality and including all consequent shortcomings of being subject to the material world of pakrti which forms the three gunas: essential nature of being: rajo guna, tamo guna and satva guna. Gunas by the way are defined as "string" and also as "tendencies." Guna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The teaching of the Three Gunas is found in the Vaishnava scriptures: Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, and Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. Those writings which elevate Bhagavan Krishna as the Supreme Godhead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So just reflect for a moment how long ago this teaching was revealed to mankind and only within the last 20 years has modern day physics discovered that "strings" were the basic building blocks of all matter. And Quantum Mechanical theory shows that all matter has a relationship to consciousness at the particle level. This relationship to a perceiver has been described as "tendancies to exist" from the writings of physicist Fritjof Capra based on the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Complex. This is whether Quantum Entanglement and Non-Locality have implications which cause physicists to take a leap into the realm of spirituality and metaphysics to explain, at least theoretically. Quantum Physics with regard to spirituality
> 
> I think this shows very clearly that there is a kind of infallibly revealed truth from the God in these teachings. And Guruji was also able to recognize this because He is a God-realized Satguru. I'm completely convinced that Gurbani is absolute truth with no mythology or fake thing in it, except that which is explicitly stated to be mythological by Guruji.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Vaishnava Vedanta sampradya is primarily a Dvaitic monotheistic philosophy and contrasts with the strictly Advaitist schools in that it makes perfect sense, "Why is Guru praying to God if Guru is God?" Because that is the element of Vaishnav Bhakti teaching which is Dvaitic. However, it is a modified philosophy because of the inclusion of the Advaitist definition of the God in the teaching of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Achintya Bheda Abheda ("inconceivable oneness and difference"). So because of the expanded definition the Supreme God is defined in terms of dualism, sarguna as well as non-dualism, nirguna. So he will have describable attribures such as:
> 
> 
> ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
> sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
> You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
> 
> ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
> banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
> Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. ~SGGS Ji p. 1082​
> So contrary to being a negation of the validity of the sargun saroop of Raam Chandra, a Krishan avataar, Gurbani is actually confirming the Gaudiya Vaishnav theology that He is formless and also has a form. God as the Supreme aspect is nirguna, but Gurbani also has a Dvaitist teaching, in that the formless God also takes on a sargun saroop to manifest in sansaara. Advaita means "not two," and refers to the nirgun, attributeless, formless, highest reality of the God.
> 
> 
> ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
> anthar baahar har prabh eaeko dhoojaa avar n koee ||
> Inwardly and outwardly, they saw only the One Lord God; for them there was no other second. ~SGGS Ji p. 445​
> 
> And it is clear that this exactly principle is the very definition of Gaudiya Vaishnava school of Vedanta which teaches Dvaita and Advaita and emphasizes devotional kirtan and chanting of Har Krishan and his avataars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~Bhul chak maaf




A great post and a lot too take in.

I am not sure about the connection between Sufism and Vaishnavism. Read "The Sufi's" and "The Way of The Sufi" both by Idries Shah. The forward is very interesting.

My own opinion is that the Guru's did not adhere to any one school of thinking. Have you noticed that all school's of thought i.e. Hindu based , Islamic and Christian based are criticised in Bani for losing their way. Even Jains are described as "corrupt". Bani seems not to make a criticism of Buddism, something I find interesting (I maybe mistaken).

The Guru's background as Kshatriya's would have possibly "Shivite" in nature...again I maybe mistaken.

I will do a deeper analysis of what you have written when I have time.


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## spnadmin

randip singh said:


> A great post and a lot too take in.
> 
> I am not sure about the connection between Sufism and Vaishnavism. Read "The Sufi's" and "The Way of The Sufi" both by Idries Shah. The forward is very interesting.
> 
> My own opinion is that the Guru's did not adhere to any one school of thinking. Have you noticed that all school's of thought i.e. Hindu based , Islamic and Christian based are criticised in Bani for losing their way. Even Jains are described as "corrupt". Bani seems not to make a criticism of Buddism, something I find interesting (I maybe mistaken).
> 
> The Guru's background as Kshatriya's would have possibly "Shivite" in nature...again I maybe mistaken.
> 
> I will do a deeper analysis of what you have written when I have time.



Randip ji

Let me join you in thanking Harjas ji for what has been a sustained and careful analysis and review of Gurbani in relation to Vaishnavism. These essays on this and other threads truly dignify our study. 

Harjas ji, there is a kind of heroic effort in your writing to date and, yes, a lot to take in.

On the question of Guru Nanak and Buddhism: I have been pondering this point for weeks now. There is a key similarity that surfaces in relation to each branch of Buddhism that I have looked into. Again, not sure, but the answer may lie in this idea. In Gurbani and in Buddhism, samadhi is not the end of the road for spiritual development while still alive on the plane of earth. There is something after samadhi that has an active moral and ethical component that appears missing in the later Vedantic traditions.  

Buddhism seems to say that samadhi is not where one stops, savoring the bliss of one's personal encounter with God. In fact there are Buddhist scholars who are even suspicious of samadhi as a goal. They see it as a path to something else. And the question is asked vigorously -- And, after samadhi?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
> Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā*iṇ. Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ. Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
> My Beauteous Lord is the Giver of salvation and the spouse of wealth. He, the Lord, is the Saviour of Daropadi, from the clutches of the destroyers of her honour. The Detached Lord of mammon does the wondrous deeds, sports and makes merry.
> ​
> Here be advised, saving of Dropati is not credited to Krishana but to the Lord Himself, sticking on a story will not do just what Guru ji is promoting. When Devtas are called beggars what importance they have left before His Mighty power?  Even in Gurbani Guru ji declares all credit to Him when Guru ji is revered in high esteem.



Veer ji, the story of the saving of Draupadi's honor is taken from the Mahabharata, Bhagavad-Gita.  And in the story it is indeed Bhagavan Krishna who she prays to, and who saves her.  When Gurbani is mentioning story of Draupadi, how can anyone NOT credit to Krishan?  Moreover, the whole pauri of Gurbani is praising the One Parabrahm as manifest in the Krishan avtaaras.

"O Krishna, son of Devaki,
Lord of the universe, of inexhaustible powers,
Krishna of the blue-lotus skin, 
Krishna of the white-lily eyes,
Saffron-robed Krishna,
Help me now!"
-Draupadi's cry to Krishna in Book Three ​
It is part of Vaishnava sampradya to consider Bhagavan Krishan and this lineage of Vishnu avtaaras as the sargun saroop of the One Supreme Uncreated nirgun God and to subordinate every other deva as demi-god, including Vishnu.  So to see in Gurbani a subordination of every demi-god to the One Supreme is not itself contradicting Vaishnavism at all.  The fact that Gurbani subordinates every deva, including Vishnu, but does NOT subordinate the das avtaaras is pure Vaishnavism.  Can you explain why this whole pauri is praising the One Supreme Lord in the form of das avtaaras?

(18) At the coming of day, all manifested things come forth from the unmanifested and at the coming of night they merge in that same, called the unmanifested.
(19) This very same multitude of existences arising again and again merges helplessly at the coming of night, O Partha (Arjuna), and streams forth into being at the coming of day.
(20) But beyond this unmanifested, there is yet another Unmanifested Eternal Being who does not perish even when all existences perish.
(21) This Unmanifested is called the Imperishable. Him they speak of as the Supreme Status. Those who attain to Him return not. That is My supreme abode.
~Bhagavad-Gita ch. 8

Belief of Vaishnavism is that the nirguna manifests as the das avtaaras, and while all-pervading exists within every deva and every being, only the das avtaaras are the sargun saroop of the nirgun Supreme Parabrahm.  And it should be noted that Vaishnavism often contradicts Brahmanism, with the exception of the school of Ramanuja and Goswami Tulsidas who tried to Brahminize Vaishnavism.  So we see Guruji contradicting Brahminism and casteism, yet elevating the One Supreme nirguna and praising the sarguna of the lineage of Krishan avataars, and explaining the all-pervading nature of the Oneness of Advaita.  Can this association of Vaishnavism in Gurbani be accidental? I would dare say nearly every major teaching in Gurbani has an origin which can be directly traced, and in some places almost word for word conformity with Vaishnava Upanishads.



ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​



ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥ 
pehil purasaabiraa ||
First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥ 
athhon purasaadhamaraa ||
From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥ 
asagaa as ousagaa ||
All that is, is His.
~SGGS Ji p. 693​





> ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀਹੈਚੰਗਾ॥੩॥
> Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā*iṇ. Ḏāṛā agrė paritham ḏẖarā*iṇ. Bāvan rūp kī*ā ṯuḏẖ karṯė sabẖ hī sėṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
> The Lord is the support of the earth, the man-lion and Primal being.Thou, O Lord, are the Upholder of the earth with Thine for teeth.Thou, O creator, assumed the form of a pigmy and are the sublime Lord of all. ​
> Look at the Vaak” seti hai changa, means still only you are sublime of all, that is what Guru ji is preaching here.



Narasingh Narayana?  The dwarf?  All in the same sentence as the Supreme Lord who subsumes (pervades within) all?  Veerji, this Guru vaak is praising the Krishan avtaaras *as* the One Supreme Lord.  The Lord Himself is manifesting through these avtaaras is what Gurbani is saying.








> Narasiṃha ("man-lion") (also spelt as Narasingh, Narasinga) (नरसिंह in Devanagari) is described as an incarnation (avatara) of Vishnu within the Puranic texts of Hinduism who takes the form of half-man / half-lion, having a human torso and lower body, but with a lion-like face and claws.  He is worshipped in deity form by a significant number of Vaishnava groups throughout India (especially in the South) and is primarily known as the 'Great Protector', being a form of Vishnu who specifically defends and protects his devotees in times of need.
> Narasimha: Information and Much More from Answers.com



Even with a very superficial reading of this pauri, how can one negate or ignore the distinct mention of das avtaaras as manifesting as the One Supreme?   Seeing praise of das avtaara in Gurbani, and of Narasingh, how can anyone overlook association of Order of Singhs with this warrior avtaar whose duty is to destroy tyranny and protect devotees?



ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥ 
babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa ||
BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin. 

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥ 
baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa ||
A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma.
~SGGS Ji p. 258​

It is Vaishnava teaching against the corruption of caste and varna system to say the real Brahmin is the one who worships the God, irrespective of birth caste, be he brahmin or shudra.  And so we find this tuuk also in Gurbani.  Strange for Guruji to associate a Vaishnav with a Gurumukh.

Saint Narsi Mehta, true Vaishnaav:


> "A few days later, a Brahmin was giving a feast. He wanted to invite Narsi but did not. When guests started arriving, he saw a Harijan with every Brahmin coming in. He realized his mistake and begged Narsi’s pardon. Narsi taught them that a true Brahmin accepted the universal brotherhood of all men and treated them equally."






> In the trinity of Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma, Vishnu is the sattva quality of a centripetal tendency towards light and truth, which holds the universe together by pervading all existence. *Vishnu comes from a root meaning "to pervade," and he is known as the Pervader. Thus Vishnu dwells in everything and defeats the power of destruction...*
> 
> *The Vaishnavas distinguish five forms of God:* in his transcendent form; the avataras, which are incarnations of God sent to save the dharma, cosmic law, and mankind, with Vishnu as an essentially human character; the vyuha, emanations of his power, as Vasudeva-Krishna, Samkarsana, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha, who play a part in Vishnu's creation, preservation, and absorption of the universe; the immanent God; and the image or statue...
> 
> *A tribe of ksatriyas*, warriors, called the Satvata, were bhagavatas and were seen by the Greek writer Megasthenes at the end of the fourth century BCE. *This sect then combined with the cult of Narayana,* a demiurge god-creator who later became one of the names of Vishnu.  Soon after the start of the Common Era, the Abhiras or cowherds of a foreign tribe, contributed *Gopala Krishna, the young Krishna, who was adopted by the Abhiras and worked as a cowherd and flirted with the cowherdesses.* Only as a mature young man did he return to Mathura and slay Kamsa.
> 
> *The Vasudeva, Krishna, and Gopala cults became integrated through new legends into Greater Krishnaism, the second and most outstanding phase of Vaishnavism.*
> Being non-Vedic, Krishnaism then started to affiliate with Vedism so that the orthodox would find it acceptable. *Vishnu of the Rg Veda was assimilated into Krishnaism and became the supreme God who incarnates whenever necessary to save the world. Krishna became one of the avataras of Vishnu.*
> 
> In the eighth century CE the* bhakti of Vaishnavism came into contact with Shankara's Advaita doctrine of spiritual monism and world-illusion.* This philosophy was considered destructive of bhakti and important opposition in South India came from Ramanuja in the eleventh century and Madhva in the fifteenth century. Ramanuja stressed Vishnu as Narayana and built on the bhakti tradition of the Alvars, poet-saints of South India from the sixth to the ninth centuries (see Shri Vaishnavas).
> 
> *In North India there were new Vaishnava movements:* Nimbarka in the fourteenth century with the cult of Radha, Krishna's favourite cowgirl (see Nimavats); Ramananda and the cult of Rama in the same century (see Ramanandis); *Kabir in the fifteenth century, whose god is Rama (see Kabirpanthis);* Vallabha in the sixteenth century with the worship of the boy Krishna and Radha (see Vallabhas); and Caitanya in the same century with his worship of the grown-up Krishna and Radha (see Gaudiya Vaishnavas). In the Maratha country poet-saints such as *Namdev* and *Tukaram* from the fourteenth to the seventeenth centuries worshipped Vishnu in the form of Vithoba of Pandharpur (see Vitthalas).
> Vaishnava






> ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
> Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā. Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā. Sahas nėṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
> Thou alone are Ramchand, who has no form and outline. Thou, O flower-gift God, of fascinating sight, has a quoit in Thy hand. Thou has thousands of forms. Thou alone are the Giver and all others are beggars. ​
> Again here Guru’s surat( attention) is not on His created devtas but on HIM, look at” sehas netr moorat” it is definition of His sargun Sroop. Who are called great, they are beggars in Guru’s views when compared to HIM. What a Sikh learns from it, to contemplate on HIM not to propagate old theories about Devtas because they are beggars at His court. Your translator uses the word” Great Ram Chand” where is a word” great in Guru Vaak”? Imagination rather nostalgia! Alone stands is HIM the GIVER to all, rest are the beggars, period, that is what Guru ji is promoting through these reference.



An Indian reader will immediately recognize the famous king of Avodya, an English reader may be helped by translating as great or famous Raam Chand without changing the essential meaning.


yatah khyatim yatam katham u sahate tad vigarham
To think that the devatas are equal to Krishna. 
~One of the ten offenses against the Name, Padma Purana​

Ramachandra isn't considered to be a deva by Vaishnav tradition.  He is an avtaara of the One Supreme Lord, exactly as in Guruji's description.  Moreover there are different types of avtaaras, and Ramachandra is considered a "complete" avtaar.  You cannot keep ignoring Raam Chand, Narasingh, the dwarf, Har Krishan all in the same pauri being equated with the formless Supreme nirguna and think it is accidental.   Where in "this particular pauri" is Guruji subordinating das avtaara?  He is not.  He is equating them as sarguna.

So just to read that Gurbani subordinates devas is no proof at all, since that is Vaishnav philosophy.  Remember also that Vaishnavism is famous for path to God through devotional bhakti, kirtan and japping Naam Gurmantras.  Isn't this also the essence of Sikh path while even using the same Naams for Gurmantra?  Raam, Govind, Gopala, Vasudeyv? 


"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal Divine Person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and you are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages like Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me. O Krsna, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor the demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." (Bg. 10.12-14).


ਊਤਮੁ ਊਚੌ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਖ ॥ 
ootham oocha paarabreham gun anth n jaanehi saekh ||
that the Supreme Lord God is the most sublime and lofty. Even the thousand-tongued serpent does not know the limits of His Glories.

ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੁਕ ਬਿਆਸ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਤ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥ 
naaradh mun jan suk biaas jas gaavath gobindh ||
Naarad, the humble beings, Suk and Vyaasa sing the Praises of the Lord of the Universe.  

ਰਸ ਗੀਧੇ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਬੀਧੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਚੇ ਭਗਵੰਤ ॥ 
ras geedhhae har sio beedhhae bhagath rachae bhagavanth ||
They are imbued with the Lord's essence; united with Him; they are absorbed in devotional worship of the Lord God.
~SGGS Ji p. 298




> randip singh writes: "I am not sure about the connection between Sufism and Vaishnavism. Read "The Sufi's" and "The Way of The Sufi" both by Idries Shah. The forward is very interesting.
> 
> My own opinion is that the Guru's did not adhere to any one school of thinking. Have you noticed that all school's of thought i.e. Hindu based , Islamic and Christian based are criticised in Bani for losing their way. Even Jains are described as "corrupt". Bani seems not to make a criticism of Buddism, something I find interesting (I maybe mistaken).
> 
> The Guru's background as Kshatriya's would have possibly "Shivite" in nature...again I maybe mistaken."



There are different schools of Sufism.  Just like there is no single kind of Vaishnavism, there is no single school of Sufism.  I find it interesting that everyone equates Kabir ji as a Muslim, when his own Kabir-panthis call themselves Vaishnav because he was a great devotee of Lord Raam.  So when we read again this baghat bani of Kabir ji, it's difficult to reconcile how these could be taken as words of a Muslim and not a Vaishnav.


ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਨ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਗਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ 
bindhraaban man haran manohar kirasan charaavath gaaoo rae ||
In Brindaaban, where Krishna grazes his cows, he entices and fascinates my mind.
 6 Gaurhee Saint Kabir  

ਜਾ ਕਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਨਾਊ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੨॥੧੫॥੬੬॥ 
jaa kaa thaakur thuhee saaringadhhar mohi kabeeraa naaoo rae ||2||2||15||66||
You are my Lord Master, the Archer of the Universe; my name is Kabeer. ||2||2||15||66||
 6 Gaurhee Saint Kabir 
~SGGS Ji p. 338​


So I think in this way, because Kabir Ji was born a Muslim, people continue to identify him this way, when his primary spiritual teaching was clearly not Islam, but an Islam influenced by Vaishnava bhakti.  I think people have tended to make this kind of misidentification of Sufism precisely because of the understanding that Guru of Sikhism was cosmopolitan uniting people of all faiths.  While this is true, it can be shown the umbrella uniting them all was Vaishnavism.  Where in all of Islam do you find japping Naam of God as a spiritual practice?  In Vaishnav influenced Sufism, because it is the essence of Vaishnava bhakti.

What purist Muslims think about Sufism:


> Sufism is marred by un-Islamic beliefs and is an Ideology in itself:
> 1. The belief of Wahdat al-Wajood, which implies that the Creator (Allah) and the creation are one, and the creation is just the manifestation of the Creator.
> 2. The belief that the Prophets and the Sufi saints are alive in their graves, just as they were alive in this world. They are fully aware of the outside world; they can communicate with the living and help those who call upon them.
> 3. The spirits (Ruh) of the righteous comes back from the Barzakh.
> 4. Gross exaggeration in praising the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) whilst neglecting his (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) teachings in understanding the religion.
> 5. Total and complete obedience to a Sufi Shaikh.
> 6. Penance and living the lives of hermits are ways to get closer to Allah.
> 7. Some Majzoobs, who have reached the goal of Sufism, run the affairs of the creation.





> Like many other Sufi doctrines, pantheism is adopted from man-made religions and philosophies, as confirmed by S. R. Sharda in his book, Sufi Thought
> 
> "Sufi literature of the post-Timur period shows a significant change in thought content. *It is pantheistic.* After the fall of Muslim orthodoxy from power at the centre of India for about a century, due to the invasion of Timur, the Sufi became free from the control of the Muslim orthodoxy and consorted with Hindu saints, who influenced them to an amazing extent. The Sufi adopted Monism  and wifely devotion from the *Vaishnava Vedantic school  and Bhakti  and Yogic practices.*  By that time, the popularity of the Vedantic pantheism among the Sufis had reached its zenith."
> What Sufism has to do with Islam? Discover the True Religion of Muslim - MANIFEST AND HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE, SAINT WORSHIP, Akhyaar (chosen), Abdaal (substitutes), Abraar (pious), Awtaad (pegs), Nuqabaa (watchmen), Qutb (pole), Ghawth (Succor), Bayazid Ta






> Drawing from Qur'anic verses, virtually all Sufis distinguish Lataif-e-Sitta (The Six Subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa. These lataif (singular : latifa) designate various psychospiritual "organs", or faculties of sensory perception.[16] Sufic development involves the awakening of these spiritual centers of perception that lie dormant in an individual. Each center is associated with a particular color and general area of the body, often with a particular prophet, and varies from order to order. The help of a guide is considered necessary to help activate these centers. After undergoing this process, the dervish is said to reach a certain type of "completion."
> 
> These six "organs" or faculties: Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi and Akhfa, and the purificative activities applied to them, contain the basic orthodox Sufi philosophy. The purification of the elementary passionate nature (Tazkiya-I-Nafs), followed by cleansing of the spiritual heart so that it may acquire a mirror-like purity of reflection (Tazkiya-I-Qalb) and become the receptacle of God's love (Ishq) and illumination of the spirit (Tajjali-I-Ruh). This process is fortified by emptying of egoic drives (Taqliyya-I-Sirr) and remembrance of God's attributes (Dhikr), and completion of journey by purification of the last two faculties, Khafi and Akhfa.
> 
> The person gets acquainted with the lataif one by one by Muraqaba (Sufi meditation), Dhikr (Remembrance of God) and purification of one's psyche of negative thoughts, emotions, and actions. Loving God and one's fellow, irrespective of his or her race, religion or nationality, and without consideration for any possible reward, is the key to ascension according to Sufis.
> Wikipedia search result


Six chakras.  Purification of the ego by meditation and Naam jap (dhikr: reciting name of Allah).  Islam indeed.  Sufism is definitely a form of Islamicized Vaishnavism, and not an independant form of Islamic mysticism.  How can it be said Guruji borrowed from Islam and Vaishnavism equally?  What Islamic teachings appear in Shri Guru Granth Sahib?  That which appears is Vaishnav-influenced.  And the central theme of Vaishnava bhakti?  Mukti through devotional practice of Naam jap.



> Both of Sheikh Chand's books were written in the form of questions and answers and contain discussions on identical philosophical thoughts. The dialogue in Hargauri-Sambad is *between Shiva and Durga *and that in Talibnama between the poet himself and his pir, Shah Doulah. The principal themes of the discussions are *faith in the guru, mystery about the Creator, cosmology and yoga. It also has a description of Shiva's imparting secret wisdom to Durga. Here the influence of Nath religion is discernible...*
> 
> *A Sufi's ultimate aim is to attain union with God. *The devotee is shown this path by the pir or murshid (spiritual guide or teacher). Guided by the pir, the Sufi tries to free himself from the senses and purify his soul. Through spiritual rites, he frees himself from all worldly attachments and attractions and then surrenders unconditionally to Allah...
> 
> The poets expressed their sentiments and feelings in unambiguous language. At times they used metaphors to give indirect vent to their feelings, *often using the love of radha and krishna symbolically. Extensive use of this symbolism has led many contemporary critics to describe the poets of this stream as 'Muslim Vaishnava poets', 'pro-Vaishnava Muslim poets' etc.
> BANGLAPEDIA: Sufi Literature*




Indries Shah combined teaching of Mevlana Sufism with Theosophy and Gurdjieff's writings to a largely western audience.  It is more correct to say he was "new age" rather than imparting an authentic Sufi tradition.  He has been much criticized in the Islamic world for teaching Sufism without Islam.  His western followers are not taken seriously by any authentic Sufi lineage, including Mevlana Order.  So while he may have wise things to say as a teacher from Sufi background, his writings will not be authoritative for purposes of tracing historical bhakti Vaishnav or even yogic Shaivite Nath influence in Sufism.




> My own opinion is that the Guru's did not adhere to any one school of thinking. Have you noticed that all school's of thought i.e. Hindu based , Islamic and Christian based are criticised in Bani for losing their way.


Really analyzing Gurbani of both Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji you find a unifying theme... Vaishnavism.  Guruji criticized Braministic ritualized Hinduism.  But His teaching is nearly identical to Vaishnavism.  I find that interesting.

Take for example a quick look at Guru ji's message.

1. teaching of reincarnation
2. teaching of heaven and hell and devalokas.
3. teaching of Mahadeva Trimurti in association with creation.
4. criticism and correction of caste system, janeo, pandits, yogis, brahmins and even devas as not being able to find the limits of the nirguna.
5. teaching Dharma Bull of the 4 yugs.
6. teaching that Naam jap is the boat of mukti for the Kaliyug.
7. teaching dhyaan and gyaan.
8. teaching of chakrs and dasm duar, closing the nine bodily gates
9. teaching of jeevanmukti
10. teaching salvation is found in human body and even devas long for it.
11. teaching spiritual lessons from Hindu classic scriptures, i.e. Draupadi's honor.
12. teaching to keep amrit vela with practice of Naam jap.
13.  Naam jap is taught using Gurmantra
14. Guru-shishya relationship is taught.
15. Gur-deekhya through charan-pahul which is subsumed into Khande Ki pahul of Dasam Pita ji. 
16. merging into God-consciousness Brahm-jnana/gyaan, samaadhi is the ultimate.


Where is there any teaching of Guruji which is completely opposed to Vaishnava Vedanta?  Rather, almost every single major teaching can be traced to Vaishnava Upanishads.

Can any be traced to Islam or Christianity?





Vaishnav initiation (diksha) with charan pahul. Lotus feet of the guru.



ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥ 
gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||
I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1||  

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁ ਨਿਤ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰਉ ॥ 
gur kee raen nith majan karo ||
I take my daily bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.
~SGGS Ji p. 239​

Tilak mark of Vaishnav tradition is taking the dust of the feet of the holy on one's head for auspisciousness of opening third eye agni chakra.

"when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."
~Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6 Rig Veda​



ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਾਮ ਤਿਹਾਰੋ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਨ ਨਿਕਟ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥
जिनि जिनि नाम तिहारो धिआइआ ॥ दूख पाप तिन निकट न आइआ ॥
Those who mediated on the Name of the Lord, none of the sorrows and sins came near them.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਅਉਰ ਧਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰਹੀਂ ॥ ਬਹਿਸ ਬਹਿਸ ਬਾਦਨ ਤੇ ਮਰਹੀਂ ॥੪੧॥
जे जे अउर धिआन को धरहीं ॥ बहिस बहिस बादन ते मरहीं ॥४१॥
Those who meditated on any other Entity, they ended themselves in futile discussions and quarrels.

ਹਮ ਇਹ ਕਾਜ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ ਆਏ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਿ ਪਠਾਏ ॥
हम इह काज जगत मो आए ॥ धरम हेत गुरदेवि पठाए ॥
I have been sent into this world by the Preceptor-Lord to propagate Dharma (righteousness).

ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੁਮ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੋਖੀਅਨਿ ਪਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਰੋ ॥੪੨॥
जहां तहां तुम धरम बिथारो ॥ दुसट दोखीअनि पकरि पछारो ॥४२॥
The Lord asked me to spread Dharma, and vanquish the tyrants and evil-minded persons. 

ਯਾਹੀ ਕਾਜ ਧਰਾ ਹਮ ਜਨਮੰ ॥ ਸਮਝ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸਭ ਮਨਮੰ ॥
याही काज धरा हम जनमं ॥ समझ लेहु साधू सभ मनमं ॥
I have taken birth of this purpose, the saints should comprehend this in their minds.

ਧਰਮ ਚਲਾਵਨ ਸੰਤ ਉਬਾਰਨ ॥ ਦੁਸਟ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਮੂਲ ਉਪਾਰਨ ॥੪੩॥
धरम चलावन संत उबारन ॥ दुसट सभन को मूल उपारन ॥४३॥
(I have been born) to spread Dharma, and protect saints, and root out tyrants and evil-minded persons.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਭਏ ਪਹਿਲ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਨ ਜਾਪੁ ਉਚਾਰਾ ॥
जे जे भए पहिल अवतारा ॥ आपु आपु तिन जापु उचारा ॥
All the earlier incarnations caused only their names to be remembered.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਖੀ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਬਿਦਾਰਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਨ ਕੋ ਰਾਹੁ ਨ ਡਾਰਾ ॥੪੪॥
प्रभ दोखी कोई न बिदारा ॥ धरम करन को राहु न डारा ॥४४॥
They did not strike the tyrants and did not make them follow th path of Dharma.
~Sri Dasam Granth Sahib p. 138​



> The Guru's background as Kshatriya's would have possibly "Shivite" in nature...again I maybe mistaken.


You are correct.  Some Shavaite Nath Yogi influence does exist within Sikhism, particularly Shri Chand Yogi and the Udasi Panth is a Shaivite Order.  Nihangs have traditions such as sukha/bhang similar to Shaivite chillum.  The wearing of jura and keeping uncut hair is traced to Shaivite yogic Nath sampradya.  Sufi's also have blending of Vaishnav and Nath influences as well.  Again, if it was just one, or even a few similarities between Vaishnava and Nath traditions and Sikh religion, it could be downplayed somewhat.  But I find it unbelievable there is this parallel which is nearly exact on every major point of teaching (including yogic kechari mudra and amrit nectar trickling down after raising kundalini shakti) together with complete denial of any association whatsoever by almost every major Sikh authority.  It's not the relationship that I find troubling, but the blanket denials which seem impossible to support.



ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਮਦਕ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਸੁਖਮਨ ਪੋਚਨਹਾਰੀ ਰੇ ॥੨॥ 
mudhraa madhak sehaj dhhun laagee sukhaman pochanehaaree rae ||2||
My mudra - my hand-gesture, is the pipe; tuning into the celestial sound current within, the Shushmanaa - the central spinal channel, is my cooling pad. ||2||

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮ ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਗਹਨੈ ਦੇਉ ਰੇ ॥ 
theerathh barath naem such sanjam rav sas gehanai dhaeo rae ||
Pilgrimages, fasting, vows, purifications, self-discipline, austerities and breath control through the sun and moon channels - all these I pledge.

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਪਿਆਲ ਸੁਧਾ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਏਹੁ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਪੇਉ ਰੇ ॥੩॥ 
surath piaal sudhhaa ras anmrith eaehu mehaa ras paeo rae ||3||
My focused consciousness is the cup, and the Ambrosial Nectar is the pure juice. I drink in the supreme, sublime essence of this juice. ||3||  

ਨਿਝਰ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਇਹ ਰਸ ਮਨੂਆ ਰਾਤੋ ਰੇ ॥ 
nijhar dhhaar chuai ath niramal eih ras manooaa raatho rae ||
The pure stream constantly trickles forth, and my mind is intoxicated by this sublime essence.
~SGGS Ji p. 969​








Shiv saroop of Nihang Singh.  The farla represents Ganges river flowing out.  See Shiva icon.





Shaivite babas packing chillum pipe with hashish, traditional Shivaite practice.  Sikhism forbids smoking, yet Nihang Jatha retains tradition of Sukha/bhang protein drink.



ਸੁਰਗ ਪਇਆਲ ਮਿਰਤ ਭੂਅ ਮੰਡਲ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਨੋ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥ 
surag paeiaal mirath bhooa manddal sarab samaano eaekai ouhee ||
In the heavenly paradise, in the nether regions of the underworld, on the planet earth and throughout the galaxies, the One Lord is pervading everywhere. 

ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤ ਸਗਲ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਮਇਆ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਦੋਹੀ ॥੧॥ 
siv siv karath sagal kar jorehi sarab maeiaa thaakur thaeree dhohee ||1||
Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, ""Shiva, Shiva"". O Merciful Lord and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. ||1|| 

ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੀਤਲੋਹੀ ॥ 
pathith paavan thaakur naam thumaraa sukhadhaaee niramal seethalohee ||
Your Name, O Lord and Master, is the Purifier of sinners, the Giver of peace, immaculate, cooling and soothing.

ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਸੰਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਸਿਉ ਗਾਲ ਗਲੋਹੀ ॥੨॥੮॥੧੨੯॥ 
giaan dhhiaan naanak vaddiaaee santh thaerae sio gaal galohee ||2||8||129||
O Nanak, spiritual wisdom, meditation and glorious greatness come from dialogue and discourse with Your Saints. ||2||8||129||
~SGGS Ji p. 207​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> On the question of Guru Nanak and Buddhism: I have been pondering this point for weeks now. There is a key similarity that surfaces in relation to each branch of Buddhism that I have looked into. Again, not sure, but the answer may lie in this idea. In Gurbani and in Buddhism, samadhi is not the end of the road for spiritual development while still alive on the plane of earth. There is something after samadhi that has an active moral and ethical component that appears missing in the later Vedantic traditions.
> 
> Buddhism seems to say that samadhi is not where one stops, savoring the bliss of one's personal encounter with God. In fact there are Buddhist scholars who are even suspicious of samadhi as a goal. They see it as a path to something else. And the question is asked vigorously -- And, after samadhi?


Buddhism has fundamental differences in that they do not believe in an atman, an individual soul. They do not believe in a Paramatman, a Lord God in any Dvaitic or monotheistic sense.  They do parallel Advaitic teachings about nirguna however.




> Buddha taught that there is no permanent self in the conventional sense (anatta), what most people call self is a delusion or wrong view, not seeing things as they really are, (principally; lacking experiential insight of the five aggregates of clinging).
> 
> Buddhism teaches that all things are impermanent, in a constant state of flux; all is transient, and no abiding state exists by itself. This applies to humanity, as much as to anything else in the cosmos; thus, there is no unchanging and abiding self. Our sense of "I" or "me" is simply a sense, belonging to the ever-changing entity, that (conventionally speaking) is us, our body, and mind. This expresses in essence the Buddhist principle of anatta (Pāli; Sanskrit: anātman).


Anatta = Anatman.  No atman.

Nanak means Na Anak.  Not but one.  Or One God only which is the same as exclaimed by Ek Onkar.  Prophecies of Guru Nanak

To the Buddhist, there is no God in the personal sense.  No sarguna.  So I don't think Buddhist philosophy is reflected in Gurbani.  Buddhists wouldn't make the association.  Buddhists do however honor and revere Guru Nanak as a reincarnation of the bodhisatva Guru Bodhidharma, the founder of martial arts.  Interestingly, Bodhidharma/Padmasambhava the monk is often shown with uncut hair and beard.












> In Bhutan and Tibet he is better known as Guru Rinpoche ("Precious Master") or Lopon Rinpoche,[1] where followers of the Nyingma school regard him as the second Buddha. He said: "My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra. My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantrabhadri. I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere and awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I consume concepts of duality as my diet. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times."


So the incarnation the Buddhists believe associated with Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a Master martial artist, a master tantric yogi, and the person who converted the demonic heruka deities into dharma protectors, and the second incarnation of Lord Buddha, interestingly a Vishnu avataar.



ਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
gur jogee purakh miliaa rang maanee jeeo ||
I have met the Guru, the Yogi, the Primal Being; I am delighted with His Love.

ਗੁਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੜਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
gur har rang ratharraa sadhaa nirabaanee jeeo ||
The Guru is imbued with the Love of the Lord; He dwells forever in Nirvaanaa.
~SGGS Ji p. 173​




> In Gurbani and in Buddhism, samadhi is not the end of the road for spiritual development while still alive on the plane of earth. There is something after samadhi that has an active moral and ethical component that appears missing in the later Vedantic traditions.
> 
> Buddhism seems to say that samadhi is not where one stops, savoring the bliss of one's personal encounter with God. In fact there are Buddhist scholars who are even suspicious of samadhi as a goal. They see it as a path to something else.


There are different levels of samaadhi.  And Vedanta has them all recorded.  Buddhism borrows from Vedanta, as it preceeded it, and Siddhartha Buddha was born and raised Hindu.  Buddhists have no path to God in any conventional sense because they don't believe in a personal being which could be called "God."  They believe in Shunyata, essential emptiness, which Gelugspa tradition of the Dalai Lama teaches is also the calm-abiding of the Clear Light of mind.  

"The lama prepares the dying person by reading from the Book of the Dead, that "swifter than lightning, the luminous splendor of the colorless light of emptiness... will surround you on all sides... If one is concentrated on shunyata (emptiness), then the Clear Light can be entered."​Sacred Art of Dying​



> Samadhi (samādhi समाधि, pronounced [sɑmadʰi]) is a Sanskrit term for the state of consciousness induced by complete meditation. Its etymology comes from sam (together or integrated), a (towards), and dha (to get, to hold). Thus the result might be seen to be to acquire integration or wholeness, or truth (samapatti)...
> 
> Samadhi is the main subject of the first part of the Yoga Sutras called Samadhi-pada. According to Vyasa, a major figure in Hinduism and one of the traditional authors of the Mahabharata, "yoga is samadhi." This is generally interpreted to mean that Samadhi is a state of complete control (samadhana) over the functions and distractions of consciousness.
> 
> Samadhi is described in different ways within Hinduism such as the state of being aware of one’s Existence without thinking, in a state of undifferentiated “Beingness" or as an altered state of consciousness that is characterized by bliss (ananda) and joy (sukha).
> 
> Furthermore samadhi has been categorised as:
> 
> Laya Samadhi
> Savikalpa Samadhi
> Nirvikalpa Samadhi
> Sahaja Samadhi
> Laya Samadhi is a latent ("laya"), potential level of samadhi. It begins in deep meditation or trance—even with movement, such as dancing. This kind of samadhi is a state of joy, deep and general well-being, and peaceful meditation.
> 
> Savikalpa Samadhi refers to the initial temporary state of full-valued samadhi. The conscious mind is still active, as is the kalpa, meaning imagination. One should compare this meaning to that of sankalpa, which is "wish." Kalpa takes on a different, but related, meaning to sankalpa because one must use imagination or consciousness (kalpa) to envision a wish or desire (sankalpa). Conversely, vikalpa means "against imagination." At this final level of samadhi, the mind has become quiet and given up its desires and attendant. Vikalpa leads to the Truth, releasing one from any binds of mind (which are mostly imaginations). In Savikalpa Samadhi, we get the taste of Bliss and Beingness, but are still attached to our erroneous identification with the body as well as to our numerous worldly attractions.
> 
> Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the end result. There are no more kalpas (imaginings, wishes or other products from work of the mind), because the mind is finally under control. Upon entering Nirvikalpa Samadhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure Awareness remains and nothing is missing to take away from Wholeness and Perfection.
> 
> Entering samadhi in the beginning takes effort and holding on to a state of samadhi takes even more effort. The beginning stages of samadhi (Laya and Savikalpa Samadhi) are only temporary. By "effort" it is not meant that the mind has to work more. Instead, it means work to control the mind and release the self. Note that normal levels of meditation (mostly the lower levels) can be held automatically, as in "being in the state of meditation" rather than overtly "meditating." The ability to obtain positive results from meditation is much more difficult than simply meditating. It is recommended to find a qualified spiritual master (guru or yogi) who can teach a meditator about the workings of the mind.
> 
> Samadhi is the only stable unchanging reality; all else is ever-changing and does not bring everlasting peace or happiness.
> 
> Staying in Nirvikalpa Samadhi is effortless but even from this condition one must eventually return to ego-consciousness. Otherwise, this highest level of Samadhi leads to Nirvana, which means total Unity and the logical end of individual identity (and also death of the body). However, it is entirely possible to stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi and yet be fully functional in this world. This condition is known as Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi or* Sahaja Samadhi*. Only the truly Enlightened can be and remain spontaneously free...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam%C4%81dhi




ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੈ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਉ ਸਹਜ ਜੋਗ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੧॥ 
jo kishh karai bhalaa kar maano sehaj jog nidhh paavo ||1||
Whatever the Lord does, look upon that as good; thus you shall obtain the treasure of Sehj Yoga. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 359​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## spnadmin

Four Noble Truths


This world is suffering. 
The cause of suffering is desire. 
The cessation of suffering is the cessation of    desire. 
The cessation of desire is achieved through    practicing the Noble Eight-fold Path, which includes right speech, right    action, right livelihood, etc. (Path of True Living). 

This is where where there may be a moral and ethical connection with Sikhism


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

I believe there is a moral and ethical connection with all true spiritual systems of any religion, because Truth is One.  So you are right on that note.


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## pk70

aad0002 said:


> Four Noble Truths
> 
> 
> This world is suffering.
> The cause of suffering is desire.
> The cessation of suffering is the cessation of    desire.
> The cessation of desire is achieved through    practicing the Noble Eight-fold Path, which includes right speech, right    action, right livelihood, etc. (Path of True Living).
> 
> This is where where there may be a moral and ethical connection with Sikhism



*It comes down to pleasing. 1. Pleasing to ourselves, pleasing others to please ourselves 2. Only pleasing HIM.  First one is in  practice in high gear, the later needs to be experimented by the seekers. Pleasing HIM only can negate all which become barrier between HIM and us, pleasing Him only will enable us to understand His Ordinance. Pleasing Him only also keeps soul in Harmony to His Laws. Tell me aad0002 ji, if I stated otherwise in context of your comments because I feel it is an extension to them.*


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## spnadmin

pk70 ji

Yes an extension if I understand you correctly. The question that follows for a Sikh is "What Pleases Him." The answer comes from Guru Nanak, walk on the path of truthful living: Nam Japna, Kirt Karna, Vand Chhakna. I am not saying that these duties are not valued in other religions, but rather Guruji says this explicitly,  clearly, and exactly.  In fact these take us to the highest spiritual development. And there is a very similar notion in Buddhism. Buddhists will argue that arrogance and pride can slip into spiritual practice and that samadhi is not a protection against this. Tibetan Buddhists use the term "spiritual materialism."  We may use our spiritual practice to feed our egos. Truthful living is the ethical response to spiritual materialism:  truthful living embraces the idea of gratitude which is love in action, an antidote to pride.

Just a thought since the question of Buddhism was raised. I won't say more because I am not really an expert but have had a passing interest in these issues.


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## pk70

*Respected Harjas ji, please make a note of it that I am in smiles while responding to your post, of course totally in disgreement.*
   ( Quote Harjas Kaur ji Khalsa)…. analyzing Gurbani of both Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji you find a unifying theme... Vaishnavism. Guruji criticized Braministic ritualized Hinduism
*Dasam Granth has been in controversy since its inception so it is not advisable to question Sikhism’s originality by taking its references, we better stick to the original, Shree Guru Granth Sahib Ji*
  . But His teaching is nearly identical to Vaishnavism. I find that interesting.
  Take for example a quick look at Guru ji's message.

1. teaching of reincarnation
2. teaching of heaven and hell and devalokas.
*This is in question, as unlike other faiths, there is no description of Hell or Heaven in Gurbani save for consequences of not doing His Simran, so these are reduced to references only. Here is reaction about them.*
ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਮਨਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੀ ਆਸ ॥ 
जब लगु मनि बैकुंठ की आस ॥ 
Jab lag man baikunṯẖ kī ās. 
As long as there is desire for paradise in man's mind, 
ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਹੀ ਚਰਨ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥੩॥ 
तब लगु होइ नही चरन निवासु ॥३॥ 
Ŧab lag ho*ė nahī cẖaran nivās. ||3|| 
so long he abides not at the Lord's feet. 
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਾਹਿ ॥ 
कहु कबीर इह कहीऐ काहि ॥ 
Kaho Kabīr ih kahī*ai kāhi. 
Says Kabir, to whom should I tell this, 
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੈ ਆਹਿ ॥੪॥੧੦॥ 
साधसंगति बैकुंठै आहि ॥४॥१०॥ 
Sāḏẖsangaṯ baikunṯẖė āhi. ||4||10|| 
that in the society of saints is the Heaven

3. teaching of Mahadeva Trimurti in association with creation.
*It was modified as only HIS act only[/FONT]*ਏਕੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਜੀਰੁ ॥੫॥ 
[/FONT]एको साहिबु एकु वजीरु ॥५॥ 
[/FONT]Ėko sāhib ėk vajīr. ||5|| 
[/FONT]The Lord Himself is the sole sovereign and the sole Minister.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਸੁਆਮੀ ਖੁਦ ਹੀ ਕੱਲਮਕੱਲਾ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਅਤੇ ਕੱਲਮਕੱਲਾ ਮੰਤਰੀ ਹੈ। [/FONT]
   4. criticism and correction of caste system, janeo, pandits, yogis, brahmins and even devas as not being able to find the limits of the nirguna.
*As they came by, Guru ji reacted about them since he found them as big hindrance on the path of real spirituality.*
5. teaching Dharma Bull of the 4 yugs.
*Dharma Bull is questioned by stating Dharm and pity with passion are actually holding earth not that BULL.*
6. teaching that Naam jap is the boat of mukti for the Kaliyug.
*Mukti is questioned by Fifth Sroop specially in “Mukt n chaoo..”, that was quoted earlier. Kalyug turns better when His Name is sung( M-1, M-3, M-5).*
7. teaching dhyaan and gyaan.
*No spiritual experience is possible without these two, so it is not taken out of influence. You need flour to make bread.*
8. teaching of chakrs and dasm duar, closing the nine bodily gates
*That is sheer your own view, all these words are used as a state of mind as it is elevated to that level by NAME
*9. teaching of jeevanmukti
*I already said, jeevanmukti is not required even, it is hinted to be achieved while living.
*10. teaching salvation is found in human body and even devas long for it.
*To stress that even so called Devtas, couldn’t know HIM, alone this negates all concept of Devtas importance Bhagat Kabir ji questions concept of Muslims His being up there by saying how can  their HE can listen to him.  Even today, we ourselves quote all others just to insert our views,
*11. teaching spiritual lessons from Hindu classic scriptures, i.e. Draupadi's honor.
*Because before Guru ji only these stories were taught to exploit commoners. Their limitations and lessons were equally addressed*
12. teaching to keep amrit vela with practice of Naam jap.
*With  “amritVela”, “athe pehr=all the time” is also stressed, five times of Nivaaj was also questioned to say why not to  remember HIM all the time.
*13. Naam jap is taught using Gurmantra
*In Guru Granth Sahib, Jap is addressed as “ simran of all Gurbani,( Guru Guru Jap), remembering HIM with all Names as HE is praised with that Name. His **Nam** also as WAHEGURU is called mantra by Bhai Gurdaas ji, it is not limited only to mool mantra only
*14. Guru-shishya relationship is taught.
*That is initial need to proceed on a path,  in other paths father, Kazi are considered Guru to show path, similarities  are there because Guru ji believes people go stray quickly, to save that fall, Guru is vital. what does it prove otherwise?
*15. Gur-deekhya through charan-pahul which is subsumed into Khande Ki pahul of Dasam Pita ji. 
*I answered it as I explained the message conveyed through metaphors read below.*
16. merging into God-consciousness Brahm-jnana/gyaan, samaadhi is the ultimate.
*There is a path introduced but still His grace is stressed unlike others.*
      Where is there any teaching of Guruji which is completely opposed to Vaishnava Vedanta? Rather, almost every single major teaching can be traced to Vaishnava Upanishads.
*I have answered it in the end of this post, please read it slowly so that repetition is avoided.*
* Harjas Bhain ji lets discuss only following to see if all views are built up on distortion of Guru Message or it has any bearing.*
ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥ 
gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||
I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1|| 
Charan= feet, dhoe= wash, washing, peevan= drink
*Translator is translating simply words, he has no concern that “ Charan dho ke peene” is an idiom in Punjabi  which implies enormous respect in humbleness, using this Gurvaak as proof of that sect’s practice is not justice to the Guru Vaak; fanatic Hindus tried to eliminate originality of Guru Nanak by doing so. 
*ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁ ਨਿਤ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰਉ ॥ 
gur kee raen nith majan karo ||
I take my daily bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.
*Ren= dust, manjan= bath, kro= do , nit= every day*
*Again taking bath in dust of Guru’s feet is an idiom conveying elimination of ego and follow Guru in humbleness. Both Guru Vaak you have quoted says nothing about “feet initiations you have used them. Personally I feel, due to respect, it is really not right to use Gurbani like this.
~SGGS Ji p. 239*
when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."
~Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6 Rig Veda
*That is not prediction, it was a simple statement to advocate **Krishna** being the incarnation of God which we Sikhs refuse to accept as we say HE infests but do not take birth. If that is propagated in context of Ten Masters, what happened today, where are another series of Ten Masters because times now are worse than the time of Guru Nanak and his nine Sroop?*
  Nanak means Na Anak. Not but one. Or One God only which is the same as exclaimed by Ek Onkar. Prophecies of Guru Nanak
*It is another effort of infusing illusion as a reality into Sikhs’ minds. I say this because the one who named him, Sree Mehta Kalu ji, father of Guru ji, didn’t appreciate what Guru ji had been doing ,  instead, his best happiness remained in Guru ji’s other son who followed Grand Pa( Maya Moh) instead of his own father Guru Nanak. You have recalled me your own good expression of splitting hair.  How would he understand his son would be as per his name when he named him Nanak? Well if he [/FONT]* *named him with so powerful name, why he never got inkling of Divine Jot Guru had as Sister Bebe Nanaki acknowledged.*
  To the Buddhist, there is no God in the personal sense. No sarguna. So I don't think Buddhist philosophy is reflected in Gurbani. Buddhists wouldn't make the association. Buddhists do however honor and revere Guru Nanak as a reincarnation of the bodhisatva Guru Bodhidharma, the founder of martial arts. Interestingly, Bodhidharma/Padmasambhava the monk is often shown with uncut hair and beard.

*From above statement it is clear people of different faiths are just dreaming to call Guru Nanak incarnation of different Avtaras. Surprisingly in Japji, Guru ji counts Bhuda among other numerous like Ram or Krishna proving there is one you see but there many like them you don’t even( Kete Budh.. Japji) see or know. You go to Guru Nanak and talk about your avtar, his answer is the same, HE created numerous like that. Guru ji never predicts about HIS future plans. Who got so high status in religious circles, Guru reacts to them as a play of His infinity. Guessing He was avtar of this and that is not what Gurbani says, as Guru ji was complimented and honored  with that high status only; unfortunately some stuck with that advocating it as a perfect reality. One needs to go into depth of all these. Poetic form of Gurbani shouldn’t be interpreted as a statement but as a way of saying something to give priority to the idea Guru ji advocated through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One cannot accept one thing and then say all other was corrupt so Guru ji corrected them. I do not see any prevailed words used by sects, cults, groups Guru ji didn’t address and didnt imply truthful new meaning as acceptable to the CREATOR. I applaud your study of all these various sects or faiths but you’re sticking to referred words used as conveying truthful meaning, convinces me that you do not try to see what is authentic. Guru declares and says every thing he says is revealed by his GURU Akaal, how as a Sikh any one can play intellectual game by saying he has said nothing new or he is influenced by those so called Veda- wisdom or Vaishanava.*
*To your question about dependency of Guru Nanak on the sources you have been advocating and negating Guru’s claims that Gurbani was revealed to him and He Himself enlightened him and assigned a job to bring people to HIM by getting out of duality, my answer is that not once Guru ji ever says about that such and such sources are good to walk on his path but just refers them to insert his own views.*
ਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
gur jogee purakh miliaa rang maanee jeeo ||
I have met the Guru, the Yogi, the Primal Being; I am delighted with His Love.
ਗੁਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੜਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
gur har rang ratharraa sadhaa nirabaanee jeeo ||
The Guru is imbued with the Love of the Lord; He dwells forever in Nirvaanaa.
~SGGS Ji p. 173
*Again in  this Guru vaak clears how Guru remains imbued in His love, nothing more, don’t get stuck with word” yogi: as yogi is defined who remains imbued in union with the God, that is the essence of these Guru Vaakas. Following Vaak clears it firther*
ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੈ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਉ ਸਹਜ ਜੋਗ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੧॥ 
jo kishh karai bhalaa kar maano sehaj jog nidhh paavo ||1||
Whatever the Lord does, look upon that as good; thus you shall obtain the treasure of Sehj Yoga. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 359
*It is not about so called SEHAJ Yoga but way of progress in achieving union with the Creator by understanding His hukm( Ordinance), reread the Vaak” Jo Kish krai bhla kar manu” accepting  HIS Ordinance as “ better for well being. Deciphering Yoga tradition out if it by ignoring the stress on obeying His Ordinance proves that it cannot change the truth. I humbly urge you, before you use Guru bachan, settle down and try to figure out what in totality Guru ji has been trying to pass on to his followers then only you can do justification to Gurbani.*
*Here is an admission by known missionary controversial ( biased too)scholar Mcleod’s  in context of originality of Guru Nanak in totality of Bhagati.*
*MCleod who totally depended on Hindu scholars  who were significantly biased, whose work cannot be called scholarly due to his pick and choose approach  though still couldn’t deny the fact about originality of Guru Nanak.*
*“ plainly there is much that is profoundly original in hymns we find recorded under his( Guru Nanak ) distinctive symbol in the Adi Granth…”( Sikh Spectrum March08 Ref.),*
*The reason of this reference is simple, whether you look it or ignore it, Guru Nanak’s totally stress on HUKAM and Grace Of God make him stand all alone from those sects or scriptures which are referred as influencing source of Guru Nanak. As I shared with my sister, talking about a Lotus, stressing on influences of dirt in which it blossoms in is a sheer ignorance. We are looking at thousands years of religious practices Guru Nanak inherited but he refused to inhale in that dust. If you question "what is new he said" is  taken in consideration, I shall give you one example of a original chaff who prepares delicious dish, if any one says the sugar and other ingredients are found in his dish, usually used by many,  you will never understand where originality lies.  So please take a deep breath and see if you are doing justice to Guru by saying you don’t see any thing new. Decision is in your hands, I have expressed my concern with a request.*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> This is in question, as unlike other faiths, there is no description of Hell or Heaven in Gurbani save for consequences of not doing His Simran, so these are reduced to references only.


Heaven and hell as concepts do in fact appear several times in Gurbani in contexts related to sinners and reward, and not merely as a consequence of doing Simran or not which wouldn't invalidate them anyway.  Although I recognize there is an interpretation which says they are only symbolic, hence, referring only to heaven of doing Naam Simran, and hell of not doing, and not related to some kind of lokas.  I assure you, the point under debate had nothing to do with interpretation, but showing the dozen or so points of similarity between Gurbani teaching and Vaishnav doctrine.  If Gurbani is repeating the same fundamental doctrine and structure of life, existence, spirituality and mukti as Vaishnavism, it deserves to be looked at.

If you don't agree with the interpretation of narak surag, fine.  But don't say it isn't in Gurbani, or is invalidly there because it relates to something which disproves it's validity, because this can be shown not only relating to Naam Simran, but to sinners as well in traditional context. These concepts appear in Gurbani, regardless of anyone's interpretation is parallel with the spiritual philosophy of Vaishnav Upanishads.




ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਘਰੀ ਬਹਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ 
har bhagathaa no dhaee anandh thhir gharee behaalian ||
The Lord bestows bliss upon His devotees, and gives them a seat in the eternal home. 

ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ 
paapeeaa no n dhaeee thhir rehan chun narak ghor chaalian ||
He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਅੰਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਅਨੁ ॥੧੯॥ 
har bhagathaa no dhaee piaar kar ang nisathaarian ||19||
The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. ||19||
~SGGS Ji p. 91​



ਰਾਹ ਦੋਵੈ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਝਸੀ ॥ 
raah dhovai eik jaanai soee sijhasee ||
One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.  

ਕੁਫਰ ਗੋਅ ਕੁਫਰਾਣੈ ਪਇਆ ਦਝਸੀ ॥ 
kufar goa kufaraanai paeiaa dhajhasee ||
One who speaks lies shall fall into hell and burn.

ਸਭ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੁਬਹਾਨੁ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥ 
sabh dhuneeaa subehaan sach samaaeeai ||
In all the world, the most blessed and sanctified are those who remain absorbed in Truth.

ਸਿਝੈ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਵਾਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥੯॥ 
sijhai dhar dheevaan aap gavaaeeai ||9||
One who eliminates selfishness and conceit is redeemed in the Court of the Lord. ||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 142​



ਬਿਆਪਤ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ 
biaapath harakh sog bisathhaar ||
It torments us with the expression of pleasure and pain. 

ਬਿਆਪਤ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ 
biaapath surag narak avathaar ||
It torments us through incarnations in heaven and hell.  

ਬਿਆਪਤ ਧਨ ਨਿਰਧਨ ਪੇਖਿ ਸੋਭਾ ॥ 
biaapath dhhan niradhhan paekh sobhaa ||
It is seen to afflict the rich, the poor and the glorious. 

ਮੂਲੁ ਬਿਆਧੀ ਬਿਆਪਸਿ ਲੋਭਾ ॥੧॥ 
mool biaadhhee biaapas lobhaa ||1||
The source of this illness which torments us is greed. ||1|| 

ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਆਪਤ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
maaeiaa biaapath bahu parakaaree ||
Maya torments us in so many ways.

ਸੰਤ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਓਟ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
santh jeevehi prabh outt thumaaree ||1|| rehaao ||
But the Saints live under Your Protection, God. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 182​



To continue this analysis, it proves helpful to show not only the prevailing Hindu or Vaishnava school of thought, but also the thought of related sampradyas such as Kabir-panthis.  We know a relationship exists between Kabir ji and Sikhism, so what do Kabir panthis think about concepts of narak surag?  Do they even believe in them?  And here is the answer:



> The ordinary members of the Panth believe that the souls of Panthis after death enter Heaven (Baikanth) or Hell (NaraK) and there remain till they have been sufficiently rewarded or punished for deeds done in the body. They then return to earth, but always apparently clothed in a human body. This succession of lives continues till the soul freed from desire becomes absorbed in God. A member of the Panth quoted to me the following saying attributed to Nanak : "We want neither Baikanth nor Abra^, -but true life(fitir{ zindagrf), and that is obtained when there are no more links with this earth.
> digilib.bu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2144/678/kabirandthekabir020544mbp.txt?sequence=1


So we can see in the Kabir panthis a cosmology which is accepting a literal narak surag within a context of reincarnation, just as appears in the Vaishnava Upanishads.  So here is in fact, another link, that the blending of Sufism with Vaishnavism did not fundamentally change this context or modernize it in any way.  Further there is allusion that Guru Nanak is saying, we don't want either heaven or hell, but mukti.  This is entirely possible to be a true quotation because it doesn't violate any Sikh teaching and underscores that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a supreme spiritual Master directing people to authentic mukti, rather then states below it, such as deva lokas.




> The Veda knows not the extent of the Name. All declare, We know not, we know not'. The Pandit reads and gropes in the dark; he knows not the existence of the Adi Brahma. The acquisition of knowledge produces pride and is of no use in the hour of death. Eighteen Puranas have been written and of these the Bhdgawata is the best. It explains the glory of Brahma and establishes the efficacy of devotion. Foots read, but to no purpose; they think not of that which is obtainable through the intellect. Those only OuUiu sv^dora who fall in with the Sat Guru, Of what use is the boat without the boatman ?
> digilib.bu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2144/678/kabirandthekabir020544mbp.txt?sequence=1


It's also interesting that Kabir panthis are able to articulate many concepts which are in line with Gurbani, while still retaining respect for the Puranas and elevating the Bhagavata Purana.  So teachings which parallel those taught in Gurbani do in fact have association with Vaishnava Puranas, chiefly Bhagavata Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam) which extols the message of Bhagavan Krishna.  While the translator here has written "It explains the glory of Brahma.." I believe English writers sometimes confuse terms.  Because the Bhagavata Puranas don't extoll the glory of Brahma deva, but of the Supreme Brahman which is concept of the nirguna.  The very message of Vaishnava Puranas, is that the sarguna is Bhagavan Krishna and his lineage of avtaaras.  So we see in Kabir Panthis this interpretation that no one, no pandit, no deva knows the limits of the Adi Brahman.  Yet devotion (bhagti), the Naam (chanting names of God), and following a Satguru (boatman of mukti) are all related to teachings from the Srimad Bhagavatam of how to obtain this devotion.  And acknowledging as Shri Guru Granth Sahib that devotion is superior path to God than intellect and ego.

So here is an unmistakable association between what is clearly Vaishnava teaching directly from Vaishnav scriptures, and linking this particular interpretation with concepts found in Gurbani.  But the interpretation is different from what the average Sikh is taught post Singh Sabha.  The interpretation doesn't simplistically say, "pandits can't know the limits of the Adi Brahman, devas can't know the limits of the Adi Brahman, therefore Guruji was invalidating Hindu religion as a path to mukti."  When in fact, the Kabir panthis are pointing out what is obvious, this very teaching comes from the Vaishnava Puranas.  So how these concepts be interpreted as a correction of, or invalidation of Vaishnav Vedanta?   




ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਾਣ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
kaethae kehehi vakhaan kehi kehi jaavanaa ||
Some speak and expound, and while speaking and lecturing, they pass away.

ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
vaedh kehehi vakhiaan anth n paavanaa ||
The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits. 

ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
parriai naahee bhaedh bujhiai paavanaa ||
Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed. 

ਖਟੁ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੈ ਭੇਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
khatt dharasan kai bhaekh kisai sach samaavanaa ||
There are six pathways in the Shaastras, but how rare are those who merge in the True Lord through them. 

ਸਚਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
sachaa purakh alakh sabadh suhaavanaa ||
The True Lord is Unknowable; through the Word of His Shabad, we are embellished.

ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਸੰਖ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
mannae naao bisankh dharageh paavanaa ||
One who believes in the Name of the Infinite Lord, attains the Court of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 148​




> Naraka is the Sanskrit word for the underworld; literally, of man. According to Hinduism and Buddhism, Naraka is a place of torment, or Hell...
> 
> Naraka or Neraka in Hinduism, is compared to the Abrahamic concept of Hell. It is mentioned especially in dharmaśāstras, itihāsas and Purāṇas but also in Vedic samhitas[1][2], Aranyakas[3] and Upaniṣads.[4][5][6][7] Some Upanisads speak of 'darkness' instead of hell.[8] A summary of Upaniṣads, Bhagavad Gita, mentions hell several times.[9] Even Adi Sankara mentions it in his commentary on Vedanta sutra 4.3.14. Still, some people like members of Arya Samaj don't accept its existence or consider it metaphorical.
> 
> In Puranas like Bhagavata Purana, Garuda Purana and Visnu Purana there are elaborate descriptions of many hells. They are situated above Garbhodaka ocean.[10]
> 
> Yama, Lord of Justice, puts human beings after death for appropriate punishment, for example, in boiling oil. Even Mukti-yogyas (souls eligible for mukti or moksha, liberation), and Nitya-samsarins (forever transmigrating ones in Dvaita theology) can experience Naraka for expiation.[11] After the period of punishment is complete, they are reborn on earth[12] in human or animal bodies.[13] Therefore neither naraka nor svarga[14] are permanent abodes.
> 
> At the time of death, sinful souls are vulnerable for capture by Yamadutas, servants of Yama (who comes personally only in special cases). Yama ordered his servants to leave Vaishnavas alone.[15][16] The attributes of Vaishnavas are urdhva pundra tilaka (Tiruman and Sri Choornam for Sri Vaishnavas or Gopi Chandan for Gaudiya Vaishnavas), tapa samskara (shoulders branded with Sankha and Chakra), and tulasi mala (necklace/garland of tulasi beads).
> Naraka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So I am showing clearly, despite objections of personal or established interpretation, that the concepts of Narak Surag, Jambhootas, Yama or Dharamraj, are directly taken from Vaishnava Upanishads.  The parallels between Guruji's teaching and Vaishnavism are too numerous to ignore.  




> Dasam Granth has been in controversy since its inception so it is not advisable to question Sikhism’s originality by taking its references, we better stick to the original, Shree Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Dasam Granth is a valid part of the history of the Sikh Panth.  Recently Akal Takhat Sahib declared hukamnama that any discussion of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji must be conducted respectfully and not criticizing the bani.  This year the Akal Takhat supported a Dasam Granth teaching seminar which came to my area and included dozens of scholars all validating the bani as belonging to Dasam Pita Ji.  So simply because you have an opinion which is different, and I can respect that, does not mean any discussion of Dasam Granth bani is meaningless or not validly a part of Sikh history.  Regardless of disputes, it is Panthically accepted at this time.  And even if it weren't Panthically accepted, it would still be worthy of analysis because these concepts and interpretations do exist within the Panth, and this is clearly a source of them.  So any relationship between Vaishnava Vedanta and Shri Dasam Granth bani, particularly when you can parallel side by side almost exact quotes from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is evidentiary proof of some kind of  "valid" relationship.  An example would be mention of the das avtaara which occurs in both Granths.

Why would it be "inadvisable" to analyze what the bani is saying?  From an impartial view, it is further supporting evidence that these are Guruji's views and correct interpretation.  You don't have to accept that.  You can write a long post about why you don't agree Shri Dasam Granth is Guruji's bani, and I'm sure you will share some good views.  But to make wild claim that this bani is invalid simply because YOU don't accept it, when clearly the major Takhats of the Sikh Panth have publically accepted it, weakens your objection.  For purposes of analyzing Vaishnavism in Sikh philosophy, it cannot be ignored.  To ignore Dasam Granth bani is simply to pad the evidence in favor of a particular viewpoint and is no real anaysis at all.  It exists!  It has been generally accepted by Panthic authority.  Major Jathas and Tahkats accept it.  Dasam Granth bani explains certain teachings within sanatani Jathas which have been criticized with no knowledge of the basis of those teachings.  What do it's teachings mean in relation to a broader context of reclaiming a heritage of Vaishnavism which has been negated, denied, and deliberately ignored by scholars of the Singh Sabha reform?  

This genie will not go back into the bottle.





> Teaching of Mahadeva Trimurti in association with creation.
> It was modified as only HIS act only
> ਏਕੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਜੀਰੁ ॥੫॥
> एको साहिबु एकु वजीरु ॥५॥
> Ėko sāhib ėk vajīr. ||5||
> The Lord Himself is the sole sovereign and the sole Minister.





ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​



> The worship of Lord Vishnu is very popular among Hindus,
> especially among the followers of the Vaishanava tradition (Vaishnavism). He is
> the second member of the Hindu Trimurti (trinity). He is also known by other
> names , such as Vasudeva, Hari, Kesava, Purusottama and Narayana...
> 
> The worshippers of Vishnu, known as Vaishnavas, recognize in him the Supreme Being, out of whom emerge Brahma, the active creator, Vishnu himself the preserver, and Shiva or Rudra, the destructor. Vishnu's preserving, restoring and protecting powers have been manifest on earth in a variety of forms, called Avataras, in which one or more portions of his divine attributes were embodied in the shapes of a human being or an animal or a human-animal combined forms.  He is bleu-skinned and in all images and relief he is seen in rich ornaments and regal garments.
> Trimurti - (Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu & Lord Shiva) - Audarya Fellowship



Veer ji, does your objection relate to the issue that mention of Trimurti and three gunas given in Shri Guru Granth is parallel to what is described in Vaishnav Upanishads?  Does it really matter how it is interpreted, so much that it even appears?  It is not even a point of interpretation I am giving, but a reference to all the concepts which appear in Gurbani which have an origin in Vaishnava Upanishads.  Your objection isn't disproving anything at all.  In fact, you only prove how close is the teaching of Guruji and Vaishnavism.  

Guruji did not even modify Vaishnava philosophy at all, but actually teaches it.  The fact that Guruji includes the Trimurti as subordinate sargun manifestations of the Supreme Brahman and three gunas as part of the creation, again, is taken directly from Vaishnava scriptures.  No other sampradhya has this teaching.  It is Vaishnavism.



We have a reference to the trimurti conception Brahma, Vishnu and Siva in IV. 5, which also indicates the late date of the Upanishad. The three forms are traced to the three gunas, rajas, sattva and tamas in V. 2. ~Maitreyaniya Upanishad​


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaadhaeo thrai gun rogee vich houmai kaar kamaaee ||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva suffer from the disease of the three gunas - the three qualities; they do their deeds in egotism.  

ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ 
jin keeeae thisehi n chaethehi bapurrae har guramukh sojhee paaee ||2||
The poor fools do not remember the One who created them; this understanding of the Lord is only obtained by those who become Gurmukh. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 735​




> According to Advaitins, by analyzing the three states of experience -- waking, dreaming and deep sleep -- Shankara exposed the relative nature of the world and established the supreme truth of the Advaita: the non-dual reality of Brahman in which atman (the individual soul) and Brahman (the ultimate reality expressed in the trimurti) are identified absolutely. The three states of consciousness, in fact, are subsumed into a fourth transcendental state known in the Upanishads as 'turiya.' The manifold nature of the phenomenal world and their ultimate unity is symbolized by Aum, the most sacred of Hindu mantras.
> Advaita - Vedantas - Vedas - Shankara - Sankara - Upanishads - Haryana Online - India





ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥ 
poorai sathigur sabadh sunaaeiaa ||
The Perfect True Guru has revealed the Shabad; 

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮੇਟੇ ਚਉਥੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
thrai gun maettae chouthhai chith laaeiaa ||
it eradicates the three qualities, and attunes the consciousness to the fourth state.  

ਨਾਨਕ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੮॥੪॥ 
naanak houmai maar breham milaaeiaa ||8||4||
O Nanak, subduing egotism, one is absorbed into God. ||8||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 231​


I do not see any teaching of Gurbani here which objects to or is fundamentally different from classical Vaishnavism.  So the common objection that Guruji was correcting errors of Hinduism must be modified to state, Guruji was correcting errors of political Brahmanism and hypocrisy in general, and not Vaishnava Vedanta as a philosophic teaching.



ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ । 
nirankaaru aakaaru hoi aykankaaru apaaru sadaaiaa|
The formless Lord has made His self known in the form of *Ekaiikar*, the one boundless Being.

ਏਕੰਕਾਰਹੁ ਸਬਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ । 
aykankaarahu sabad dhuni aoankaari akaaru banaaiaa|
From *Ekanka* came up Oankar, the Word vibration which further came to be known as the world, full of names and forms.

ਇਕਦੂ ਹੋਇ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਤਿਹੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਗਣਾਇਆ । 
ikadoo hoi tini dayv tihu mili das avataar ganaaiaa|
From the one Lord came out three gods (Brahma-, Visnu and Mahes'a) who further got themselves counted among the ten incarnations (of the supreme Being).

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਹੈ ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨ੍ਹਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ । 
aadi purakhu aadaysu hai aohu vaykhai aonhaa nadari n aaiaa|
I salute this primal Being who sees them all but is Himself invisible.
~SGGS Ji p. 26​





> If thou beest competent for it, O Bharata, do thou practise that religion duly. Even thus did the highly-blessed *Narada explain to my preceptor,--the Island-born Krishna--the eternal and immutable course, called Ekanta, (ending in One)* followed by the Whites 1 as also by the yellow-robed Yatis. Vyasa gratified with Dharma's son Yudhishthira, imparted this religion to king Yudhishthira the just who was possessed of great intelligence. Derived from my preceptor I have also communicated it to thee! O best of kings, this religion is for these reasons, exceedingly difficult of practice. Others, hearing it, become as much confounded as thou hast suffered thyself to be. *It is Krishna who is the protector of the universe and its beguiler. It is He who is the destroyer and the cause*, O monarch."
> 
> 192:3 What is stated here is this the deities and Rishis are certainly endued with Sattwa. But then that Sattwa is of a great form. Hence, they cannot attain to Emancipation. It is only that Sattwa which is of subtile form that leads to Emancipation. The deities, without being able to attain to Emancipation, remain in a state that is mutable or fraught with change.
> 
> 192:4 That is, the practices which constitute the religion of the Ekantins are not really different for those laid down in the scriptures adverted to above.
> 
> 193:1 Who are the Whites referred to in this place? The commentator explains that the word has reference to persons leading the domestic mode of life. Yatis wear robes that are coloured yellow or yellowish red. Households, however, use cloth that is white.
> ~Mahabharata, Book 12: Santi Parva, Section CCCXLIX
> The Mahabharata, Book 12: Santi Parva: Section CCCXLIX







> Ekayāna is a Sanskrit word that can mean "one path" or "one vehicle". The word took on special significance as a metaphor for a spriritual journey in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (II.iv.11 and IV.v.12). Notably, in that text the phrase vedānāṃ vāk ekayānam translates approximately to "the one destination of the Vedas is the spirit of the word".
> Ekay& - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






> "I regard the destination of Ekantins (persons devoted to the One as their end) as superior to that of Brahmans who perfectly study the Vedas, including the Upanishads, according to rule, as well as those who follow the practices of ascetics (yatis)." ~ Commentator on Sandilya's Bhakti sutra, 83 p. 60, from the Mahabharata, Santiparvan, Moksha dharma verses 13, 551.
> Original Sanskrit Texts On the Origin and History of the People of India






> First let us clarify the Vaishnava doctrine of simultaneous oneness-and-difference in the Godhead. Both the Catholic teaching of the Trinity and the teachings of Gaudiya Vaishnavism affirm that there are real differences between the Persons of the Godhead. Still, “God is One”. In fact the Hebrew word for this mysterious Oneness of God is ECHAD and the Sanskrit Name of Sri Krishna-Baladeva-Vishnu-Paramatma is EKA. Hebrew ECHAD and Sanskrit EKA both mean ONE and are both Names of God. In fact, in ancient times the Vaishnavas were called *EKANTINS* because they worshiped the ONE GOD (were MONOTHEISTS). Their ONE GOD was called EKA-NATHA, EKA-DEVA and similar names. So despite the fact that this ONE / EKA God was worshiped with countless Names and in countless Forms (NAMA-RUPA) according to His countless loving relations with His devotees, the Supreme Mystery of His Oneness was well-grasped by His devotees. ~Bhaktananda gosvami   Is Narad a complete incarnation? - Audarya Fellowship


So even here we see the Vaishnava tradition has always worshipped the (Eka) One God in many forms as part of the spiritual philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, and no proof that Guruji invalidated Vaishnava Vedanta at any point.  A relationship can be inferred to the sect which pre-dated the ancient Vaishnavas who were known as the Ekantins who worshipped only the One Supreme All-pervading (Vishnu) of Bhagavan Krishna, with the very root definition of Ek Onkar.

Only superficial readings and negative inferences by politicized organizations within Sikhism have made these exaggerated claims and recklessly associated the worst excesses of hypocritical Brahminism with Viashnava Vedanta and created a void of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge as to the Vaishnavist origins in Nanakian philosophy.





> 4. criticism and correction of caste system, janeo, pandits, yogis, brahmins and even devas as not being able to find the limits of the nirguna.
> As they came by, Guru ji reacted about them since he found them as big hindrance on the path of real spirituality.


Veer ji, if you do even a superficial study of Vaishnavism, you will see the same identical objections and corrections which they also found to be a "big hindrance on the path of spirituality."  And it is clear, as these are far older documents, that Vaishnavism is the origination of the reform teaching found in Gurbani.




> The big hearted Raamanuja fought against caste distinctions and gathered under his doctrine, people from all walks of life and caste and religion and occupation and said henceforth they shall be known as one community. Thus he created the Iyengar community, and told them to always work for reform of society. Some of the earlier vaishnava and bhagaavata adherents also merged into the iyengars. Later there was a large immigration of Ramaanandi vaishnavas from north India and another large migration from Gujarat. While they too merged, slight differences arose.
> 
> The great Raamanuja specifically included among his followers sc's, tribals, immigrant foreign soldiers, arabs and turks, destitutes women, jains, etc. Raamanuja's efforts are glossed over by modern  pseudo-secular writers. Ramanuja and his later disciples running the movement, certainly saw to it that there was no more exclusivism of caste groups inside the community. All the same it appears they made sure that the brightest were selected as iyengars, evangelizers of vaishnavism, without any regard to their former caste or other origins. It is however true, after some centuries this reformist movement became just another caste, not quite sure about its place in the hierarchy.
> 
> The immense and lasting influence of Raamanuja is probably not realised by many Indians. Here are some direct and indirect descendants of his thought: ---the entire actual live vaishnava tradition of today, and including offshoots and modifications and the movements heavily influenced like those of Raamananda, Kabir, Ravidas, Nanak, Tulsidas, Vallabhacharya, Nimbaarka, Madhvacharya, Raghavendra, Chaitanya, Ramdas. ...even recent reformers like Phule and isckon and others.  One characteristic method used by the gurus was community dinners, where everybody sat together without distinction. This went a long way towards reduction of old discriminations.
> 
> www.vedah.net/manasanskriti/Brahmins.html






> 5. teaching Dharma Bull of the 4 yugs.
> Dharma Bull is questioned by stating Dharm and pity with passion are actually holding earth not that BULL.


This is a superficial overview of passages in Gurbani where Singh Sabha scholars have made an effort to distance Gurbani from Vedantic origins.  Dharma Bull is not accepted literally, as Guruji refers to it as "mythical."  But the teaching of the deteriorating spirituality of the cycle of yugs which the Dharma Bull represents, are cited repeatedly throughout Gurbani.  The fact that compassion is holding up the bull, and not a literal bull is no negation whatsoever of this Vedantic teaching, which has always been symbolic.  And it is Dharma (righteousness) which the Bull is upholding.  To falsely attribute superstition of a real literal Bull holding up the earth to the wisdom teachings of the Bhagavata Puranas is the false view and deliberate distortion by Singh Sabha reformists.




> Upon enquiry he came to know that the cow was mother earth who was lamenting her fate after the departure of her beloved Lord Krishna.  *The bull was Dharma whose three legs, which represent Austerity, Purity, and Compassion*, were mutilated because of the conditions in the Kali yuga.  Its fourth leg, the only one left, represents Truthfulness.  The man hurting the animals represents the spirit of Kali.  Moved and outraged at the pitiable plight of Dharma, King Pareekshit healed its condition by reestablishing the four pillars of Dharma... With the establishment of Dharma once again, mother earth was no longer anguished.  This episode is a reminder to us that it is in our hands to establish righteousness in our own lives and unless we do so consciously, values in society will deteriorate very quickly.
> http://www.chinmaya-sanjose.org/new/2007AprilYagna-BhagavatamCanto1.shtml






> 6. teaching that Naam jap is the boat of mukti for the Kaliyug.
> Mukti is questioned by Fifth Sroop specially in “Mukt n chaoo..”, that was quoted earlier. Kalyug turns better when His Name is sung( M-1, M-3, M-5).


Mukti is questioned?  You're trying to say Guruji doesn't believe in mukti?  Can you please clarify this objection?



ਕਲ ਮੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਪਾਵਤ ਗੁਰੁ ਯਹ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਤਾਵੈ ॥ 
kal mai mukath naam thae paavath gur yeh bhaedh bathaavai ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, liberation comes from the Naam. The Guru has revealed this secret.
~SGGS ji p. 831​


Although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.3.51)​


Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Visnu, in Treta-yuga by performing sacrifices, and in Dvapara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.3.52)​



Those who are actually advanced in knowledge are able to appreciate the essential value of this age of Kali. Such enlightened persons worship Kali-yuga because in this fallen age all perfection of life can easily be achieved by the performance of sankirtana. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.36)​



ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਪਦੁ ਊਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਝਾ ॥ 
har keerath kalajug padh ootham har paaeeai sathigur maajhaa ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise brings the most noble and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru.
~SGGS Ji p. 697​



Simply by chanting one holy name of Hari, a sinful man can counteract the reactions to more sins than he is able to commit. (Brhad-visnu Purana)​



ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਲਹਾਤੀ 
har har naam japahu man maerae jith simarath sabh kilavikh paap lehaathee ||
Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, O my mind; meditating on it, all sins and misdeeds shall be erased.
~SGGS Ji p. 88​





> During the first stage of Kali-Yuga, the Indian caste system breaks down and god-worship is forsaken by man. All through the second, third, and fourth stages, *man forgets the name of god* and no longer offers Yagya (offerings) to the Devas. It is at this point when Lord Vishnu reincarnates as Kalki in the name of the Devas and all of mankind to rid the cosmos of Kali's dark influence. ~From the Kalki Purana
> Kali (demon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੂਟੈ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਦਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
sathagur miliai thrikuttee shhoottai chouthhai padh mukath dhuaar ||2||
Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and in the fourth state, the Door of Liberation is attained. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ 
gur thae maarag paaeeai chookai mohu gubaar ||
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਉਧਰੈ ਪਾਏ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ 
sabadh marai thaa oudhharai paaeae mokh dhuaar ||
If one dies through the Shabad, then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.
~SGGS Ji p. 33​



Again, these are just voicing of objections to nothing.  I made a list of teachings which appear in Gurbani which originate in Vaishnava Upanishads, and nothing more.  No attempt was even given to interpret them one way or another.  What is the point to say, "This isn't true, or Guruji didn't mean that?"  The teachings are there, regardless of interpretation, and they do originate in the Upanishads and Puranas, most notably those referred to as Vaishnavist such as Bhagavata Purana and Mahabharata.  So there is a unifying theme in all these teachings.


“All these evils of Kaliyuga will surely disappear at the very chanting [or recitation] of Srimad-Bhagavatam, even as wolves take to flight at the very roar of a lion. Then Bhakti (devotion) and Jnana (knowledge) and Vairagya (detachment) will dance in every heart and in every home.”  ~Bhagavata Mahatmya​



> bhuta-matrendriya-dhiyam
> janma sarga udahritah​"The elemental creation of *sixteen principles of matter* - namely the *five gross elements (pancha-bhutas)*, the *five objects of sense perception* (tan-matras), the *five knowledge acquiring senses* (jnanendriyas) *and the mind* - is known as sarga."
> 
> 
> The five gross elements (pancha-bhutas) are earth, water, fire, air and ether; the five objects of sensual perception (tan-matras) are sound, form, taste, smell, and touch; and the five knowledge acquiring senses (jnanendriyas) are the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin. Together with the mind, these sixteen principles are created by the first purusha incarnation, Maha-Vishnu.* Within these sixteen principles eight other principles exist subtly, making there a total of twenty-four principles of material existence.*
> VEDA - Vedas and Vedic Knowledge Online - Vedic Encyclopedia, Bhakti-yoga in vedas, Library





ਪਾਂਚ ਪਚੀਸ ਮੋਹ ਮਦ ਮਤਸਰ ਆਡੀ ਪਰਬਲ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
paanch pachees moh madh mathasar aaddee parabal maaeiaa ||
It is defended by the five elements, the twenty-five categories, attachment, pride, jealousy and the awesomely powerful Maya.
~SGGS Ji p. 1161​


ਨੈਨ ਸਲੋਨੀ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥ 
nain salonee sundhar naaree ||
I may have a beautiful woman with fascinating eyes;  

ਖੋੜ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਕਰੈ ਅਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥ 
khorr seegaar karai ath piaaree ||
she may decorate herself with the sixteen adornments, and make herself appear gorgeous. 

ਬਿਨੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਭਜੇ ਨਿਤ ਖੁਆਰੀ ॥੩॥ 
bin jagadhees bhajae nith khuaaree ||3||
But without meditating on the Lord of the Universe, there is only continual suffering. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 225​



So Shrimad Bhagavatam is talking about *24* elements (tattvas), and Guru ji is talking about *25* elements.  Why the difference?



> According to the Sāńkhya system of philosophy, there are twenty-five elements. *The twenty-four elements already described plus the time factor make twenty-five.  *
> http://vedabase.net/sb/3/26/18/



As can be seen, this entire philosophical system is not new, but describing in Punjabi the pre-existing teachings of Vaishnavism.




> sthitir vaikuntha-vijayah
> "The true situation (sthanam) is the realm of Vaikuntha."
> 
> The entire creation by the Lord is to enable the conditioned souls to satisfy their material desire to lord over the material energy. As such, according to their desires, the Lord creates a suitable situation (sthanam) for them to dwell in. Within the universe, these situations can be divided into fourteen main categories, known technically as bhuvanas, or planetary systems, and *8,400,000 sub-categories, commonly known as species of life.  From the topmost sthanam of Brahma-loka (the abode of Lord Brahma) down to the lowest sthanam of Patala-loka, all situations are destructible. *In every situation the conditioned living entity is conquered by birth and death. Only by attaining to our eternal constitutional situation in the spiritual realm of Vaikuntha can we conquer the birth and death of this material world. Thus the true sthanam of the living entity is the realm of Vaikuntha. All other temporary situations within this material world cause one to become a victim of material suffering, simply shifting from one situation to the next.
> http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/tensubjects.htm





ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰੀ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
lakh chouraaseeh jin siree sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
~SGGS Ji p. 27​



ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਭੁੰਚਨਾ ਹੋਇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੨॥ 
narak surag dhue bhunchanaa hoe bahur bahur avathaar ||2||
You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||  

ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ 
siv puree breham eindhr puree nihachal ko thhaao naahi ||
The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.
~SGGS Ji p. 214​



> To stress that even so called Devtas, couldn’t know HIM, alone this negates all concept of Devtas importance Bhagat Kabir ji questions concept of Muslims His being up there by saying how can their HE can listen to him. Even today, we ourselves quote all others just to insert our views...


But veer ji, Vaishnavs don't worship the devas.  They worship the One without form, Maha Vishnu, the All-pervading, and also the lineage of Vishnu avtaaras as sarguna.  So you are wrong to draw this conclusion without having studied Vaishnav teachings and wrongly attribute brahminism or any other school of philosophy.  Hinduism isn't one teaching, and it's incorrect to lump everything together as if it were.  Because Guruji subordinated the devas proves His spiritual philosophy was taken from Vaishnava Vedanta, and doesn't prove any disconnection from Hinduism at all.  



> *  Vishnu is accepted as the Supreme God in Vaishnavism, or Vishnu monotheism. Followers of Vishnu believe that he is the Supreme Being and distinguish him from Devas, or demigods, who are celestial beings similar to angels as discussed in Judeo-Christian traditions.
> 
> * It is considered that he manifested Himself as a living being in ten avatars. He is also worshiped in the form of these avatars.
> 
> It is not clearly known when or how the worship of Vishnu began. In the Vedas, and the information on Hindu beliefs, Vishnu is associated with Indra. However, Shukavak N. Dasa, a Vaishnavite scholar, in reference has commentated that Srivaishnavites would note that:
> 
> * The praise of Indra and other devas in the Vedas are not intended for the particular deity, but for the Supreme Being, Vishnu, who is the inner soul of devas and all other beings.
> * The various deities addressed in the hymns are simply different forms of this one Supreme Being.
> * Vaishnavas cite Rigveda 1.22.20, for the supremacy of Vishnu, "As the blazing sun pervades the entire sky like an eye fixed in the heavens, so the divine seers eternally perceive that supreme abode of Vishnu."
> * The foreword of P. Sankaranarayan's translation of Vishnu sahasranama, Bhavan's Book University, cites Rig Veda V.I.15b.3, for the importance of chanting Vishnu's name, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the supreme truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization."
> 
> Nevertheless, it was only later in Hindu history that Vishnu became a member of the Trimurti and hence is one of the most important forms of God in contemporary Hinduism.
> 
> * Om Namo Narayana, a mantra
> * Om Namo Bhagwate Vaasudevaye - Mantra. Full Mantra: Dwadashaakshar
> * Purusha Sukta, a Vedic hymn said to describe Vishnu.
> * Vishnu sahasranama, a hymn describing the 1000 names of Vishnu.
> 
> Avatars
> 
> There are ten primary avatars of Vishnu (dashavatara), apart from other, less significant, incarnations.
> 
> They are (in order of avatar)
> 
> * Matsya (Fish)
> * Kurma (Turtle)
> * Varaha (Pig/Boar)
> * Narasimha (Lion man / from the torso upwards lion, below, human)
> * Vamana (First fully human form as a dwarf sage who has the ability to grow very tall)
> * Parashurama (Fierce man / Hunter)
> * Rama (Greatest Warrior/ Ideal man)
> * Krishna (Mentally advanced man) and sometimes Balarama (Rama with the plough) is mentioned as an avatar, who appeared as the elder brother of Krishna
> * Buddha (The all knowing one) who appeared in the 5th century BCE.
> * Kalki (Prophesied, yet to take place)
> 
> 
> Vishnu is always to be depicted holding the four attributes associated with him, being:
> 
> *1. A conch shell* or Shankhya, named "Panchajanya", held by the upper left hand, which represents creativity. The Panchajanya is the originator of the five elements or Panchabhoota - water, fire, air, earth and sky or space. The sound that evolves from blowing this conch is the primeval sound of creation.
> * 2. The chakra*, a sharp-spinning discus-like weapon, named "Sudarshana", held by the upper right hand, which symbolizes the mind. The name Sudarshana is derived from two words - Su, which means good, and Darshan, which means vision. The chakra as a weapon thus indicates the necessity of destroying one's ego and illusory self-existence and developing the vision to identify the eternal truth. The discus has six spokes and symbolizes a lotus with six petals, thus representing the power that controls all six seasons.
> *3. A mace or Gada*, named "Kaumodaki", held by the lower left hand, which represents individual existence. The mace symbolizes the primeval force from which all mental and physical strength is derived.
> *4. A lotus flower* or Padma, held by the lower right hand, which represents liberation or dispersion. The lotus symbolizes the power from which the universe emerges. It represents the concentration of truth or Satya, the originator of the rules of conduct or Dharma, and knowledge or Gyana in a single symbol.
> 
> Kathasaritsagara I,1,27 - 46





ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| 

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.  

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​




> 13. Naam jap is taught using Gurmantra
> In Guru Granth Sahib, Jap is addressed as “ simran of all Gurbani,( Guru Guru Jap), remembering HIM with all Names as HE is praised with that Name. His Nam also as WAHEGURU is called mantra by Bhai Gurdaas ji, it is not limited only to mool mantra only


I never made any reference to Moola Mantara, but was referring specifically to Naam jap, as in the practice of Naam abhiyaas, to jap Vaheguru Gurmantara which Bhai Gurdas Ji expressly states is Vishnu, Vasudeyva, Hari Krishan, Gobinda, Rama.



> In Hinduism, Hari (Sanskrit: हरि) is another name of Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, and appears as the 650th name in the Vishnu sahasranama of Mahabharata.
> Hari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






> when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world." ~Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6 Rig Veda
> That is not prediction, it was a simple statement to advocate Krishna being the incarnation of God which we Sikhs refuse to accept as we say HE infests but do not take birth. If that is propagated in context of Ten Masters, what happened today, where are another series of Ten Masters because times now are worse than the time of Guru Nanak and his nine Sroop?


Veer ji, it is a prophecy of Guru Nanak Dev Ji of which there are several in Vedic literature, referring to Him as a Vishnu avtaara in 10 forms, and ending in an 11th form which is silent except when you ask a question, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.




> "Eeth eethei Vishnu reinn chakramei threihaa nathathei patham"
> "The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi" ~Vedas, Mandala 1 Soothak 5 and in the 7th Mantra  www.hinduweb.org/home/sikh/






> "Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh serei swahaa"
> "Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well" ~Yujar Veda






> "Guru thaa Brahma, Guru raa Vishnu, Guru raa dev maheshra saakhyaar Parbrehem Thasmei NANAK nameh"
> "The Guru of the prophets, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv ji is God almighty himself. This very Creator will manifest itself as a human, in the form of one whose name will be NANAK ~Bhavishya Purana






ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​


If Gurbani doesn't mention prophecy (bhavekvani) why is Kalki avtaara mentioned in context with the Satguru who is God Himself?



> we Sikhs refuse to accept as we say HE infests but do not take birth.


Don't say "we Sikhs" as if you only have a monopoly on correct interpretation, even when part of the recognized Panth accepts Vedanta as part of Sikhism.  There have always been points of dispute.  Are you suggesting Nihang Jatha is not part of the Panth and are "not Sikhs" because of different interpretations within Sikhism since modern Tat Khalsa reform and the time original janam sakhis were written?



ਤਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
than thribhavan mehi rehiou samaaee ||
the body remains embroiled in the three worlds. 

ਜਉ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਤਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਵਾ ॥ 
jo thribhavan than maahi samaavaa ||
But when the Lord of the three worlds enters into the body, 

ਤਉ ਤਤਹਿ ਤਤ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਵਾ ॥੨੨॥ 
tho thathehi thath miliaa sach paavaa ||22||
then one's essence merges with the essence of reality, and the True Lord is attained. ||22||
~SGGS Ji p. 341​


ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥ 
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​


ਨ ਸੰਖੰ ਨ ਚਕ੍ਰੰ ਨ ਗਦਾ ਨ ਸਿਆਮੰ ॥ 
n sankhan n chakran n gadhaa n siaaman ||
God has no conch-shell, no religious mark, no paraphernalia; he does not have blue skin.  

ਅਸ੍ਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੰ ਰਹੰਤ ਜਨਮੰ ॥ 
ascharaj roopan rehanth janaman ||
His Form is Wondrous and Amazing. He is beyond incarnation.  

ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ ਕਥੰਤਿ ਬੇਦਾ ॥ 
naeth naeth kathhanth baedhaa ||
The Vedas say that He is not this, and not that.
~SGGS Ji p. 1359​


It is characteristic of Vaishnavism to teach that the unknowlable, limitless and formless God can also be a personal God in His sargun saroop.  So we will find in Gurbani different descriptions of the God which are nirguna and sarguna, without attributes, and with attributes.  But the clarity of this teaching is in the Ek Onkar, the formless One has manifested in the Trimurti and the One has become the many.  So the creation is ultimately the sargun face of the Creator.  Because Maha-Vishnu, Parabrahm the All-pervading Oneness is beyond sarguna, even sarguna is subordinate to Him because His limitless true nature can't even be known.  And hence, that is the purpose of having sargun saroop, that the sansaaric realm of His creation might know Him, as Creator, and as it's very own Self.  This is the philosophy of Vaishnava Vedanta, and this is the philosophy of Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  If you believe differently, why are the das avtaara even mentioned?  Why the Naams of God are called after Vishnu avtaaras?  Why jap Raam, Har?  Why did Bhai Gurdas Ji explain Vaheguru Gurmantra as he did, in terms of das avtaaras?  To make it easier for Hindus?  Veer ji, you can't explain away why Gurbani expresses praise for the Vaishnav, or praise for Ramachandra and Har Krishan.  You cannot, except by ignoring or calling it mythology to reach the masses (with a non-Hindu spirituality which is pretending to be Hindu) by using these names for God, referring to das avtaara as the Lord God Himself, but only meaning it as mythological stories.  Not only would that be absurd, it would be manipulative fraud to the Hindu people who trusted such teachings.  While Gurbani calls Allah also a Naam of God, where is there Islamic philosophy to manipulate the Islamic masses, who would be pushed away by japping Naams of Hindu avtaaras?  There can be only one conclusion drawn by all this... Gurbani is a form of Vaishnavism.  Guruji did not back down on names of Vishnu avtaaras to please the Muslims.  He did not fraudulently pretend to believe in Hindu philosophy just to convert Hindu people.  The whole message of Gurbani is filled with old, established Vaishnav spiritual teaching.





> From above statement it is clear people of different faiths are just dreaming to call Guru Nanak incarnation of different Avtaras.


I mentioned the Buddhist view of Guru Nanak Dev Ji because Aad0007 ji had mentioned about Buddhist influences in Gurbani.  As to the Buddhist opinion about Guruji's incarnation as Padmasambhava, I don't have enough information to have an opinion.  There are certain similarities to make it interesting, such as uncut hair and martial arts.  What interested me was Guruji is recognized as an avtaara of Vishnu by Hindus, Buddhists and is even called avtaara in Gurbani.



ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥ 
raamadhaas guroo jag thaaran ko gur joth arajun maahi dhharee ||4||
Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||  

ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥ 
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai avathaar oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਖ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਦੂਰਿ ਗਏ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਅਉ ॥ 
thin kae dhukh kottik dhoor geae mathhuraa jinh anmrith naam peeao ||
Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa.  

ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥ 
eih padhhath thae math chookehi rae man bhaedh bibhaedh n jaan beeao ||
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru. 

ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥ 
parathashh ridhai gur arajun kai har pooran breham nivaas leeao ||5||
The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||

ਜਬ ਲਉ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਗ ਲਿਲਾਰ ਉਦੈ ਤਬ ਲਉ ਭ੍ਰਮਤੇ ਫਿਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਯਉ ॥ 
jab lo nehee bhaag lilaar oudhai thab lo bhramathae firathae bahu dhhaayo ||
As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.  

ਕਲਿ ਘੋਰ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਬੂਡਤ ਥੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਮਿਟਿ ਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਯਉ ॥ 
kal ghor samudhr mai booddath thhae kabehoo mitt hai nehee rae pashhuthaayo ||
I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.

ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ ॥ 
thath bichaar yehai mathhuraa jag thaaran ko avathaar banaayo ||
O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself. 

ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥ 
japyo jinh arajun dhaev guroo fir sankatt jon garabh n aayo ||6||
Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ ॥ 
kal samudhr bheae roop pragatt har naam oudhhaaran ||
In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


----------



## pk70

Although I recognize there is an interpretation which says they are only symbolic, hence, referring only to heaven of doing Naam Simran, and hell of not doing, and not related to some kind of lokas. I assure you, the point under debate had nothing to do with interpretation, but showing the dozen or so points of similarity between Gurbani teaching and Vaishnav doctrine.
*With all due respect Bhain ji, I have not find one reason to believe Sikhism is based or influenced by any one or ant doctrine as you advocate and in emotional tide, call Guru being preaching other sect. Similarities have their own limits.*
*If in Gurbani, at one point, unlike Vaishanav doctrine, “ Mukti” is said to be not required in the same sense, how will you claim that it is the  same doctrine? Will you just look at the word and jump saying” aha, here is the word Mukti ! Any one who wants to understand Gurbani, must be well versed in knowledge of Poetic form and its application because in poetry statements are made through metaphors, words convey beyond their structure; you just cannot read and come to any narrow conclusion because in poetry application some times, exists so broad that untrained mind  can never follow the conveyed meaning. Before I give you Gurbani quotes to prove my point that Mukti as per Sikhism is not the same as Vaishanavas. Lets analyze one simple line of a Urdu poem.*
*“ koee vajehai thee ke dharkta rahaa dil, yon hajaar vaar mre apnu hee ke haath” Translation:*
*There was a reason, that heart kept beating otherwise died thousand times at the hands of my own people “*
*Bhain ji in here” mare= died” doesn’t mean physical death, its about humiliation and breaking of heart. Literally when one once died, its over, no question of heart beat. To understand above line, reader has to walk with the poet into that emotional unbearable storm triggered by his/her own people . This is the nature of the poetic form. In religious scriptures the words play in the same sense.” Darshan dejai Khol ke Vaar”( means open the door I can see you” but there is no real door behind which Lord lives, all expressions are metaphoric Never ever get stuck to its appearance, go further deep into its application in the context. In Gurbani, words are restructured. Ignorant and fanatic Hindu Dayaa Nand Called Guru Nanak illiterate just by looking at a word “ bhao” So please do a justice to Gurbani, in stead of heavily depending on second hand knowledge; as you are intelligent, learn [/FONT]* *Gurmukhi and Punjabi, you will see the same words loaded with totally new meanings in original.*
*Here is direct negation on prevailed Mukti in any faith at Guru Nanak’s time. You will see, in Gurbani, still Mukti word is used but its meaning is not understood as in Vashnav or Hinduism. *

ਪੰਨਾ 534, ਸਤਰ 4http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=534&punjabi=t&id=23811#l23811
ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ *ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ* ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
राजु न चाहउ मुकति न चाहउ मनि प्रीति चरन कमलारे ॥
Rāj na cẖāha*o mukaṯ na cẖāha*o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlārė.
I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.
ਮਃ 5
*Why not  Mukti is needed Bhain ji ? all Vashanav and Hindu  etc ideology  stress on it, here Guru ji says, no it not needed just one thing is important, that is HIS love*
ਪੰਨਾ 294, ਸਤਰ 19http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=294&punjabi=t&id=13523#l13523
ਜੀਵਨ *ਮੁਕਤਿ* ਜਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥
Jīvan mukaṯ jis riḏai bẖagvanṯ.
He is Jivan Mukta - liberated while yet alive; the Lord God abides in his heart.
ਮਃ 5 
*Again those are liberated who are imbued with Him heartily.*
ਨਾ 220, ਸਤਰ 3http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=220&punjabi=t&id=9477#l9477
ਨਾਨਕ *ਮੁਕਤਿ* ਤਾਹਿ ਤੁਮ ਮਾਨਹੁ ਜਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੨॥੬॥
Nānak mukaṯ ṯāhi ṯum mānhu jih gẖat rām samāvai. ||2||6||
O Nanak, know that those whose hearts are filled with the Lord are liberated. ||2||6||
ਮਃ 9
*Same idea, state of mind when he is seen everywhere while alive*
ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਆਤਮ ਹਿਤਾਵੈ ॥ 
He who in his heart loves Lord's ordinance, 

ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਸੋਊ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥ 
is said to be the man having salvation while alive. (275)
*Here Understanding His love and live accordingly without having any effect is liberation. Remember” Mukti” is used to get it while alive. I think it is Namdev too who says” oh Lord what is the use of Mukti after death?” Why? The examples  of [/FONT]* *Mukti quotes you give are meant to be freedom from Maya influences, to have a state of mind where His Ordinance is taken as ecstasy not that MUKTI pined for in other faiths.*
*IN your posts, regardless the explanations I gave with quotes, you repeat same things, You admit they are not specially interpreted as they are in other faiths or sects though. You just cannot get over with them.  In Gurbani Mukti is used for different aim. *


*Many times I proved your quotations of Gurbani are absolutely incorrectly used, you are bent upon quoting. You never for a moment realize that your understanding of your embraced faith Sikhism has come through second hand source, it could be wrong. Had you had well expertise in poetic form and known Punjabi, you would have seen how totally new meanings are given to old terms by Guru ji. That  truth  has become hard to swallow.Third and last, I shall not waste my time on debate further if you still bent upon ignoring Guru ji’s own clarification about his enlightenment and getting revealed Gurbani through Creator himself. If you prefer to believe in the entire posted material on INTERNET and refuse to accept what Guru claims, I shall rather study something during that period I waste on telling you again and again that even unfavorable people also accepted Guru’s originality. Why then a Sikh refuses to believe in Guru, I wonder!*
* I am pretty much convinced on concept of Hukam, Grace of God, and Mukti, Guru Nanak stands alone a way above all. As usually, none of your quote proves otherwise. *
  If you don't agree with the interpretation of narak surag, fine. But don't say it isn't in Gurbani,
*Twisting  words wont change the truth, I said these words are  not interpreted particularly and used in different context, never said, it is not Gurbani. Same old tactic is used to enforce your own views about Gurbani*.
  We know a relationship exists between Kabir ji and Sikhism, so what do Kabir panthis think about concepts of narak surag? Do they even believe in them?  
*I gave quote from Kabir ji himself why we need Kabir panthy now? It is also known as bouncing all over unnecessarily.*
  o here is an unmistakable association between what is clearly Vaishnava teaching directly from Vaishnav scriptures, and linking this particular interpretation with concepts found in Gurbani.
*Guru Nanak was a like a Sun risen, as per Bhai Gurdas ji, who dispelled all mist, why he doesn’t say the Sun borrowed from another sun Vashanava? Answer is simple, he points out Guru Nanak to be enlightened. I am going to post an article” Guru Nanak’s story by Bhai Gurdas” based on his Vaaran. I shall also prove in there with his own words how quite often you distorted his views too in favor of your own views about Gurbani. You quote him as per your convenience but he doesn’t support you. 
*
    Your Quote from SGGS- 148,  *in here, Gurbani advocates only through His love, one can merge with the source. Nothing more. I wonder why you just keep posting it.*
   So I am showing clearly, despite objections of personal or established interpretation, that the concepts of Narak Surag, Jambhootas, Yama or Dharamraj, are directly taken from Vaishnava Upanishads. The parallels between Guruji's teaching and Vaishnavism are too numerous to ignore.
*  Guru ji keeps defining like Naam, Simran, Sehaj, Karm, bandhan but no importance is given to define those terms you are talking about.*
  To ignore Dasam Granth bani is simply to pad the evidence in favor of a particular viewpoint and is no real anaysis at all.
* I obey my Guru, he said” Guru manio Granth” rest is immaterial for me personally. The reason I mention that, I just don’t want to talk about it as  the issue of its being authentic, is associated with many lies on the part of both groups who either support it or oppose it. All your references to it are insignificant for me; if you are posting for others, I shall just ignore* them

  This genie will not go back into the bottle.
*There is no genie but imaginations of those who have no inkling how poetic form of a scriptures should be understood*.
  Veer ji, does your objection relate to the issue that mention of Trimurti and three gunas given in Shri Guru Granth is parallel to what is described in Vaishnav Upanishads? Does it really matter how it is interpreted, so much that it even appears? It is not even a point of interpretation I am giving, but a reference to all the concepts which appear in Gurbani which have an origin in Vaishnava Upanishads. Your objection isn't disproving anything at all. In fact, you only prove how close is the teaching of Guruji and Vaishnavism.
*As I told you, Guru ji came above all like a lotus, I am at feet of that lotus, rest the dirt and its significance being there where lotus grew up, are absolutely of no value for me.*
  Guruji did not even modify Vaishnava philosophy at all, but actually teaches it.
*That is a direct insult to Guru’s own originality, I resent that. As there is a saying in Punjabi, “when a hungry person was asked, how much is two plus two?’” “The reply was, “four chapatees( loaf of bread) instead of saying “four” as answer.”*
*That is what the case is here. You studied Vashanav, every thing you see is Vashnav in Guru teachings. You should think before you say such words about Guru.*
   The fact that Guruji includes the Trimurti as subordinate sargun manifestations of the Supreme Brahman and three gunas as part of the creation, again, is taken directly from Vaishnava scriptures
*NO, Guru ji simply expressed the truth, none is there except HIM, they cooked up stories of Trimrti*.
  . No other sampradhya has this teaching. It is Vaishnavism.
*Guru ji states explicitly that he was asked by the Lord to go and preach HIS Naam,( Majh Ki Vaar) that is enough for me as a Sikh.*
We have a reference to the trimurti conception Brahma, Vishnu and Siva in IV. 5, which also indicates the late date of the Upanishad. The three forms are traced to the three gunas, rajas, sattva and tamas in V. 2. ~Maitreyaniya Upanishad
  Along with your quote from SGGS 735
*Guru ji tells they are Maya inflicted, don’t worry about them, stick to the real WAHEGURU*.* Why you are quoting it?  Because their names are there, that is why? but here their importance in spiritual  context is totally negated.*
*Here reference is used to tell how Guru Shabad takes over those three gun, no  other teaching is implied, only message is about importance iof Guru Shabad. Now still you think that Guru Shabad is actual Vashanav Shabad? If yes,  you need to study SGGS Ji again with the help of those who have knowledge of poetic form as well as  Gurbani.*
* Your Quote from SGGS 231*
*Here Brahm is not what you think, it is HIM, also who is called by many names in Gurbani.*
  I do not see any teaching of Gurbani here which objects to or is fundamentally different from classical Vaishnavism. 
*It does Bhain ji, you don’t see it. Guru Message is taking the seeker towards Guru Shabad, who is stuck with Vashanav will never understand what Guru ji is saying obviously. Vaishanav have Krishna as the Creator, Guru ji shows him doing deception for women, you see the contrast, Guru’s Krishan is HIM, Ajooni,  and,Ram “ jis roop n rekhia..”*
  So the common objection that Guruji was correcting errors of Hinduism must be modified to state, Guruji was correcting errors of political Brahmanism and hypocrisy in general, and not Vaishnava Vedanta as a philosophic teaching.
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ । 
nirankaaru aakaaru hoi aykankaaru apaaru sadaaiaa|
The formless Lord has made His self known in the form of *Ekaiikar*, the one boundless Being.
ਏਕੰਕਾਰਹੁ ਸਬਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ । 
aykankaarahu sabad dhuni aoankaari akaaru banaaiaa|
From *Ekanka* came up Oankar, the Word vibration which further came to be known as the world, full of names and forms.
*Here  your problem  again is second hand source obviously. Let me help here
[/FONT]Bhain ji Guru ji is describing how His Nirgan Form has also Sargan form.  Being Nirgan he becomes Sargun  Form too through manifestation. See the above Vaak, He the formless manifested in “Akaar= Form” was called as only one INFINITE( Apaar).[/FONT]*
[/FONT]ਇਕਦੂ ਹੋਇ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਤਿਹੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਗਣਾਇਆ । 
ikadoo hoi tini dayv tihu mili das avataar ganaaiaa|
From the one Lord came out three gods (Brahma-, Visnu and Mahes'a) who further got themselves counted among the ten incarnations (of the supreme Being[/FONT] *Here again metaphoric expression while addressing the prevailed stories. As HE infests in His Sargun Form, those three and the ten Avatars were also His manifestation. There is nothing more than that. Guru message is here to imply importance to HIS being Nirgun and Sargun form as well. The following Vaak clears why I am saying so, reread
*ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਹੈ ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨ੍ਹਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ । 
aadi purakhu aadaysu hai aohu vaykhai aonhaa nadari n aaiaa|
I salute this primal Being who sees them all but is Himself invisible.
~SGGS Ji p. 26
*You see here, Guru ji is saluting HIM, Expression is in amazedness. Why? He manifests and watches over His manifestation but no one can see HIM. Aren’t you amazed how wondrous He is; may be not, you are more busy finding Vishnu and Vashanav doctrine. No offence, please. Just joking.*
  o even here we see the Vaishnava tradition has always worshipped the (Eka) One God in many forms as part of the spiritual philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, and no proof that Guruji invalidated Vaishnava Vedanta at any point
*Why would he do that? Why? He was enlightened and found out HE is only one and remains detached even being manifested, why Guru ji would go against his enlightenment?  Eka Eka you are stressing, is there. any word like “ kartaar”, “ Hukm”, His Grace” in Vashanav? It is well known Guru ji would often address HIM as Kartaar, stresses on Hukm and His grace. Come on, and try to accept what Guru ji himself says about himself. Before doing any Udaasi, as you know, enlightenment happened, so what  if there were some Vashanav worshiping Him  in form of Krishna with those terms,** Others Scriptures couldn’t help except Guru Shabad( M-4 SGGS 455)*
  . A relationship can be inferred to the sect which pre-dated the ancient Vaishnavas who were known as the Ekantins who worshipped only the One Supreme All-pervading (Vishnu) of Bhagavan Krishna, with the very root definition of Ek Onkar.
Only superficial readings and negative inferences by politicized organizations within Sikhism have made these exaggerated claims and recklessly associated the worst excesses of hypocritical Brahminism with Viashnava Vedanta and created a void of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge as to the Vaishnavist origins in Nanakian philosophy.
* It was a revealed religion. Guru Nanak didn’t think and wasted a lot of time on studying  various doctrines of the world that some one should call him philosopher, its scholarly ignorance of spiritual heights.*
  Veer ji, if you do even a superficial study of Vaishnavism, you will see the same identical objections and corrections which they also found to be a "big hindrance on the path of spirituality." 
*Could be Bhainji,  but neither they  bother me nor inspire me to go and waste my time to  dig into them. Many doctrines of faiths resembles amazingly. Even Christianity has same kind of human virtues  promoted as in Sikhism, should Christian  start saying ‘ Guru Nanak went to Italy and met pope or religious leaders and started his own faith..”*
  And it is clear, as these are far older documents, that Vaishnavism is the origination of the reform teaching found in Gurbani.
*Are those documentations are more important than Guru’s own words about his experience with HIM to a Sikh?*
5. teaching Dharma Bull of the 4 yugs.
Dharma Bull is questioned by stating Dharm and pity with passion are actually holding earth not that BULL.
  This is a superficial overview of passages in Gurbani where Singh Sabha scholars have made an effort to distance Gurbani from Vedantic origins. Dharma Bull is not accepted literally, as Guruji refers to it as "mythical." But the teaching of the deteriorating spirituality of the cycle of yugs which the Dharma Bull represents, are cited repeatedly throughout Gurbani. The fact that compassion (actually it's _truthfulness_) is holding up the bull, and not a literal bull is no negation whatsoever of this Vedantic teaching, which has always been symbolic. To falsely attribute superstition of a real literal Bull holding up the earth to the wisdom teachings of the Bhagavata Puranas is the false view and deliberate distortion by Singh Sabha reformists.
*STRICTLY YOUR VIEWS, I don’t know either of them. I am much happy being in disagreement with you on this because being a student of literature their explanation makes more sense than your “ word sticking” attitude while understanding Gurbani.*
Upon enquiry he came to know that the cow was mother earth who was lamenting her fate after the departure of her beloved Lord Krishna. *The bull was Dharma whose three legs, which represent Austerity, Purity, and Compassion*, were mutilated because of the conditions in the Kali yuga. Its fourth leg, the only one left, represents Truthfulness. The man hurting the animals represents the spirit of Kali. Moved and outraged at the pitiable plight of Dharma, King Pareekshit healed its condition by reestablishing the four pillars of Dharma... With the establishment of Dharma once again, mother earth was no longer anguished. This episode is a reminder to us that it is in our hands to establish righteousness in our own lives and unless we do so consciously, values in society will deteriorate very quickly.
*This episode is not what Gurbani teaches, so for me it is sheer trash of myths even if such references are quoted in Gurbani to negate their importance.*
  Mukti is questioned? You're trying to say Guruji doesn't believe in mukti? Can you please clarify this objection?
*I answered it above with quotes*
Although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.3.51)
*Christian says praise Lord Christ, same way Hindus will promote their Lord, Gurbani promotes only HIM, a big difference, move on please*
~SGGS Ji p. 697
Simply by chanting one holy name of Hari, a sinful man can counteract the reactions to more sins than he is able to commit. (Brhad-visnu Purana)
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਲਹਾਤੀ 
har har naam japahu man maerae jith simarath sabh kilavikh paap lehaathee ||
Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, O my mind; meditating on it, all sins and misdeeds shall be erased.
~SGGS Ji p. 88
*Here translator is asleep. There is no Lord HAR HAR, Har  is for WAHEGURU, this way you guys will prove that Gurbani inspires to praise Rama, **Krishna**, Hare Rama Hare Vaishnu bla bla. No sense of Guru Message in totality, it is pitiable condition Bhainji I am sorry for such translators.*
  Your Quote from SGGS 225
*Here is good example how Guru Shabad is used in wrong sense where as it conveys if one remains inflicted with Maya, suffering and frustrations are inevitable.*
  On your quote from SGGS 1161 and (quote)
  As can be seen, this entire philosophical system is not new, but describing in Punjabi the pre-existing teachings of Vaishnavism.
*Read carefully what I write, don’t rush. Before Guru ji came, there were words like truth, false, Maya, Dharm ete, can you name any word used in Gurbani was not there before Guru Nanak? Then why are you getting surprised to see all this. Maya word well known in Guru ji’s time, Guru ji describes how it hinders the seeker to move. So what?*
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰੀ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
lakh chouraaseeh jin siree sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
~SGGS Ji p. 27
*Has any one counted that?, Today science can prove it wrong. It is just expression of His enormous creation, it is not a statement as you are dragging it  to other origins.*
ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਭੁੰਚਨਾ ਹੋਇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੨॥ 
narak surag dhue bhunchanaa hoe bahur bahur avathaar ||2||
You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2|| ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ 
siv puree breham eindhr puree nihachal ko thhaao naahi ||
The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.
~SGGS Ji p. 214
*Here actually” Nark Surag” are interpreted in a`way, means it is coming going through bith and death.. ANOTHER THING, HERE AVTAR IS USED* *AS BIRTH NOT AVTARAS; ONCE YOU SAID “ AVTAR”S MEANING IS AVTAR NOT TAKING BIRTH, just a reminder, look at it remember.*
*In this Guru Shabaf it is made clearer that those all discussed in it has no importance in this context.*
As per Quote SGGS 1082*, Wahaguru is described with the same words with new meaning and the importance of Sant is expressed as` well.*

  I never made any reference to Moola Mantara,
*You did, check your post*
    but was referring specifically to Naam jap, as in the practice of Naam abhiyaas, to jap Vaheguru Gurmantara which Bhai Gurdas Ji expressly states is Vishnu, Vasudeyva, Hari Krishan, Gobinda, Rama.
*YES BUT HE IS A POET, HE MEANS WAHEGURU NAME IS AN ESSENCE OF ALL THOSE LETTERS put together, and REMEMBER WAHAGURU ONLY*
  Veer ji, it is a prophecy of Guru Nanak Dev Ji of which there are several in Vedic literature, referring to Him as a Vishnu avtaara in 10 forms, and ending in an 11th form which is silent except when you ask a question, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
*Did any Guru mention there is a prophecy of Guru ji in Veda’s? NO, decorating dream with such references shows mind sees more outside SGGS Ji than in side it.. Remember follower of OSHO try to prove in “ The man who saw Tomorrow” OSHO is mentioned as a prophet who will say” Now Now” all imaginations Bhain ji*
  Don't say "we Sikhs" as if you only have a monopoly on correct interpretation, even when part of the recognized Panth accepts Vedanta as part of Sikhism. 
*Well I am sorry, I didn’t intend to hurt any one, and more over, I do not know that Sikhs love to be influenced by others more than their own Gurus*.
  There have always been points of dispute. Are you suggesting Nihang Jatha is not part of the Panth and are not Sikhs" because of different interpretations between modern Tat Khalsa reform and even from the time of original janam sakhis?

*They are not as per Gurbani since they drink a lot of intoxicative things. They call Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Guru. Only wearing five Kakaars doesn’t guarantee to be real Sikh as Sikhi is a battle with mind as per Guru Guidance to win over five primal negative forces*. *They can be called a tiny cult in Sikh faith.   Janam Sakhis are highly imaginative fiction why are we discussing them?
*"Quote *fomSGGS 341*
*IT IS ABOUT A STATE OF **MIND**, VERY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. You and I are millions miles away from that, better talk some thing we can talk as per our poor record in context of experiencing HIM.*
   Your Quote SGGS 1403*, all about His Sargun form*
Your quote SGGS 1359*, HERE YOUR VEDAS ARE IN QUESTION,GURU SHABAD ADDRESSES HIS NIRGUN SROOP*
  It is characteristic of Vaishnavism to teach that the unknowlable, limitless and formless God can also be a personal God in His sargun saroop. So we will find in Gurbani different descriptions of the God which are nirguna and sarguna, without attributes, and with attributes. But the clarity of this teaching is in the Ek Onkar, the formless One has manifested in the Trimurti and the One has become the many. So the creation is ultimately the sargun face of the Creator. Because Maha-Vishnu is the All-pervading One
*COME ON SIKH BHAIN JI. As you say If Mahan Vishnu is pervading, then Waheguru is also pervading, then Rama is pervading, then [/FONT]**Krishna[/FONT]** is pervading, Shiva is pervading. how many are out ther[/FONT]*e *who are pervading? Will you clarify? If only HE is  pervading, that means all names you are talking about are given in Gurbani to HIM, that makes pretty good sense, Sikhs were advised to use WAHAGURU name for Him though they can use any name as well. I believe Bhai Gurdas  ji Stressed on SatNaam and Wahaguru is due to the same reason I am facing while debating with you; he might have witnessed people dragging Guru *[/FONT]    *panth  to other sects to blend its identity. The last quote ( I am not giving it) is from Sawaye Mehle 5 ke,, it contains simply compliment while showing extreme reverence to Fifth Nanak, I am not going to waste my time on that. I have made clear my views on Guru Nanak in context of all sects and culture around he grew up; I believe him more than any one. You have problem to believe his declaration about this “ Panth” so it be. Thanks.*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Many times I proved your quotations of Gurbani are absolutely incorrectly used, you are bent upon quoting. You never for a moment realize that your understanding of your embraced faith Sikhism has come through second hand source, it could be wrong. Had you had well expertise in poetic form and known Punjabi, you would have seen how totally new meanings are given to old terms by Guru ji. That truth has become hard to swallow.Third and last, I shall not waste my time on debate further if you still bent upon ignoring Guru ji’s own clarification about his enlightenment and getting revealed Gurbani through Creator himself. If you prefer to believe in the entire posted material on INTERNET and refuse to accept what Guru claims, I shall rather study something during that period I waste on telling you again and again that even unfavorable people also accepted Guru’s originality. Why then a Sikh refuses to believe in Guru, I wonder!


Do you realize how arrogant this sounds?  First you proved nothing, except how your own views could be different.  As I showed how Gurbani does in fact have an interpretation which is not well known by mainstream Sikhs, but in fact has a long history within the Panth, and within those Jathas who embrace a form of Sikhism but are not considered within the Panth.  And I mean the Nihangs, certain views (but not all) of sants within Dam Dami Taksal and Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh ji of AKJ, Nirmalas, and also Naamdharis and Udasis.  For you to deny there is a significant population within Sikh tradition or historically close to it as mere "internet material" is a meaningless attempt at invalidation.  To be honest, I don't believe any credible Sikh scholar can be the one who just parrots his own accepted opinions without exploring the source material which establishes a historical basis of differing interpretations within Sikh religion.  You can feel free to ignore it if it doesn't jibe with your expectation of belief, but don't be so narrow as not to consider there may be more than one way Gurbani has been interpreted historically, and for very meaningful reasons.  And don't be so negative as to reject outright things you refuse to believe, not because they aren't true, but maybe they are just not true in a way you are accustomed.



"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord." [Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]​


"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti (created things)."
[Yajur Veda 40:9]​


"Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan"
"There is only one God, not the second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit."
"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."
[Bhagavad Gita 7:20] ​



"When you will transcend the charm of the Vedas and become established in the peace of Samadhi then you will attain Yoga." [Bhagavad-Gita 2:53.]
​




> If in Gurbani, at one point, unlike Vaishanav doctrine, “ Mukti” is said to be not required in the same sense, how will you claim that it is the same doctrine? Will you just look at the word and jump saying” aha, here is the word Mukti ! Any one who wants to understand Gurbani, must be well versed in knowledge of Poetic form and its application because in poetry statements are made through metaphors, words convey beyond their structure; you just cannot read and come to any narrow conclusion because in poetry application some times, exists so broad that untrained mind can never follow the conveyed meaning. Before I give you Gurbani quotes to prove my point that Mukti as per Sikhism is not the same as Vaishanavas. Lets analyze one simple line of a Urdu poem.



What does a poem in Urdu have to do with anything?  I don't see how you can say mukti, which is a Sanskrit term, doesn't mean mukti in the classical sense of liberation, but you are entitled to your views.  Anyone conversant with Sikh teaching of mukti is immediately familiar with the definition described below:


> In Indian religions, Moksha (Sanskrit: मोक्ष mokṣa, liberation) or Mukti (Sanskrit: मुक्ति, release) is liberation from samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth and all of the suffering and limitation of worldly existence. In Hindu philosophy, it is seen as a transcendence of phenomenal being, a state of higher consciousness, in which matter, energy, time, space, causation (karma) and the other features of empirical reality are understood as maya.
> 
> Liberation is experienced in this very life as a dissolution of the sense of self as an egoistic personality by which the underlying, eternal, pure spirit is uncovered. This desireless state concludes the yogic path through which conditioned mentality-materiality or nama-roopa (lit. name-form) has been dissolved uncovering one's eternal identity prior to the mind/spirit's identification with material form. Liberation is achieved by (and accompanied with) the complete stilling of all passions — a state of being known as Nirvana...
> 
> In Hinduism, atma-jnana (self-realization) is the key to obtaining Moksha. The Hindu is one who practices karma and bhakti, knowing that god is unlimited and exists in many different forms, both personal and impersonal.
> 
> There are believed to be four yogas (disciplines) or margas (paths) for the attainment of Moksha. These are: working for the Supreme (Karma Yoga), realizing the Supreme (Jnana Yoga), meditating on the Supreme (Raja Yoga) and serving the Supreme in loving devotion (Bhakti Yoga). Different schools of Hinduism place varying emphasis on one path or other, some of the most famous being the tantric and yogic practices developed in Hinduism. Today, the two major schools of thought are Advaita Vedanta and Bhakti branches.
> 
> Bhakti sees God as the most worshippable object of love, for example, a personified monotheistic conception of Vishnu. Unlike in Abrahamic traditions, for example, Smarta Hinduism, this monotheism does not prevent a Hindu from worship of other aspects of God, as they are all seen as rays from a single source. However, it is worthy of note that the Bhagavad Gita discourages the worship of demigods, as it does not lead to Moksha. The concept is essentially of devotional service in love, since the ideal nature of being is seen as that of harmony, euphony, its manifest essence being love. By immersing oneself in the love of God, one's Karmas (good or bad, regardless) slough off, one's illusions about beings decay and 'truth' is soon known and lived. Both the worshiped and worshiper maintain their identities in a personal, divine loving relationship...
> 
> Vedanta finds itself split threefold, though the dualist and modified non-dualist schools are primarily associated with the foregoing thought of Bhakti. The most famous today is Advaita Vedanta, a non-dual (i.e. no separation between the individual and reality/God/etc.) perspective which often played the role of Hindu foil to contemporary Buddhist philosophy. In general, it focused on intense meditation and moral realignment, its bedrock being the Upanishads, Brahma Sutras and the teachings of its putative founder, Adi Shankara. Through discernment of the real and the unreal, as a peeling of the layers of an onion, the sadhak (practitioner) would unravel the maya (illusion) of being and the cosmos to find nothing within, a nothingness which was paradoxically being, and transcendentally beyond both such inadequate descriptions. This was Moksha, this was atman and Brahman realized as the substance and void of existential duality. The impersonalist schools of Hinduism also worship various deities, but with the idea that such worship is ultimately abandoned - both the worshiped and worshiper lose their individual identities.
> 
> One must achieve Moksha on his or her own under the guidance of a guru..."
> Moksha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Liberation and release from the bondage of Maya, illusions, karmas, and cycle of suffering births and deaths... path of salvation being dhyaan and bhakti, sankirtana and Naam japna tradition of Vaishnavas... to discourage worship of demi-gods as these cannot lead to mukti.  Moreover one can unmistakably recognize a blending of Dvaistist beliefs in personal God who delivers you with the Avdaitist concept of an impersonal God, nirguna who is merged with.  This unique blending of philosophical positions is characteristic of Vaishnava philosophy, and it is the definition of mukti also found in Nanakian philosophy.  But if you don't see the parallels, that's your right.  If you want to insist all these parallels are worthless internet babble and have no relationship, that is also your right.  But saying does not make it so.  And long after we are gone from this world, the close and deeply meaningful parallels will remain.



14. Even as a mirror stained by dust
Shines brilliantly when it has been cleansed,
So the embodied one, on seeing the nature of the Soul (Ātman),
Becomes unitary, his end attained, from sorrow freed.

15. When with the nature of the self, as with a lamp,
A practiser of Yoga beholds here the nature of Brahma,
Unborn, steadfast, from every nature free—
By knowing God (deva) one is released from all fetters!
~ŚvetĀŚvatara Upanishad​





> Veer ji, if you do even a superficial study of Vaishnavism, you will see the same identical objections and corrections which they also found to be a "big hindrance on the path of spirituality."
> Could be Bhainji, but neither they bother me nor inspire me to go and waste my time to dig into them. Many doctrines of faiths resembles amazingly. Even Christianity has same kind of human virtues promoted as in Sikhism, should Christian start saying ‘ Guru Nanak went to Italy and met pope or religious leaders and started his own faith..”
> 
> And it is clear, as these are far older documents, that Vaishnavism is the origination of the reform teaching found in Gurbani.
> Are those documentations are more important than Guru’s own words about his experience with HIM to a Sikh?


There is no other religion in the world which parallels so exactly.  Christianity has no concept of mukti.  Islam has no concept of mukti.  Buddhism has, but it has no concept of a personal God and even it's concept of mukti comes from Vedic sources.  To make the exaggerated claim that because both Vedanta and Sikhi use the term mukti, they use it in a mutually exclusive manner which sets them apart is wishful thinking.  It points to Singh Sabhia influence which tried to downplay any and all association with ancient Vedantic teachings.  The rush to compare Sikhism as a unique synthesis of Vaishnav and Sufi Islam is also incorrect, as the entire spiritual philosophy in Gurbani is based on Vaishnava Puranas, and contains no element of Abrahamic religion.  Everything has been taught academically within Sikh institutions to disregard this association with Vaishnava Vedanta, not withstanding the historical fact that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born into a Hindu family and every form of Guru was conversant in every major language including mastery of classical Sanskrit, and taught Hindu scriptures and stories, greater proof of which is found in Shri Dasam Granth bani.  And Shri Dasam Granth bani has been denied and even reviled, not for the content specifically, not for the obvious nitename banis, but because of it's heavy emphasis teaching Sikhs from Hindu scriptures and stories.  On honest examination, the incredible parallels remain between Sikhism and Vaishnava Vedanata regardless of anyones opinion or denial.

How can it be the Hindus cannot have mukti but only the Sikhs can, based on nearly exact teachings and understanding and even same use of same terminology?  Again, I think the objection Guruji had was with the oppressive political structure of Brahminism as a form of false religion, and warnings against spiritual hypocrisy.  Sikhism has always been a tolerant religion, and Maharaja Ranjit Singh founded a kingdom on exactly this kind of tolerance, commisioning the building of Hindu temples as well as building up Harmandir Sahib.  

*Why in the modern era is this hostility, negation and denial of Vedantic validity?  And I believe it has to do with politicized interpretations of religion which mimic Abrahamic intolerance and insensitivity to undermine every other faith as invalid. * This viewpoint is not even part of Sikh history.  It's related to the British raj and division into intolerant and separate communities, emphasis on distinction and even arrogant disregarding of others (telling Sikhs they are Aryan race:  To this day haven't we heard enough about the presumed superiority of the Jatt Sikh identity?  And where did this kind of ideology come from?)  It's part of the British social control mechanism to weaken by dividing commonalities, to insert presumed inferiorities and superiorities just like the Bramins have done.  So it's my belief the casteism prevalent in the Sikh community today owes more to the British raj than the Brahmins.  

Just analyze the case of Maharaja Dalip Singh and the insane manipulation of identity involved, and consider the source and intention.  Vaishnavism, in general as different sects will differ, but from teachings of Vaishnav saints taught the traditional Vedic view of the caste and varna system being tendancies of the soul expressed genetically.  Somewhat of this is true, because no matter how equal the atma is, people are born in circumstances which will dictate a large measure of his character and opportunity.  But the political system of oppression of brahmin elites is absolutely a corruption because being born a brahmin is no special gift of spirituality.  Proof of this is the inclusion of Vaishnava bhagats in Gurbani who were dalits.  So the Vaishnav definition of caste has to do with the impulses of the individual atma, more than limitation of opportunities to ensure failure among the poor by political elites.



ਆਪੇ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਵਰਨ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਲਇਆ ॥ 
aapae dhas ath varan oupaaeian aap breham aap raaj laeiaa ||
He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain.  

ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸੇ ਕਰੇ ਦਇਆ ॥ 
aapae maarae aapae shhoddai aapae bakhasae karae dhaeiaa ||
He Himself kills, and He Himself redeems; He Himself, in His Kindness, forgives us. He is infallible.
~SGGS Ji p. 553​



ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ 
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~SGGS Ji p. 747​



ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ 
braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
~SGGS Ji p. 861​



ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 349​



ਸਾਧੂ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੈ ਸੋ ਉਬਰੈ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਸੂਦੁ ਵੈਸੁ ਚੰਡਾਲੁ ਚੰਡਈਆ ॥੬॥ 
saadhhoo saran parai so oubarai khathree braahaman soodh vais chanddaal chanddeeaa ||6||
One who seeks the Sanctuary of the Holy is saved, whether he is a Kh'shaatriya, a Brahmin, a Soodra, a Vaishya or the most untouchable of the untouchables. ||6||  

ਨਾਮਾ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਕੰਬੀਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਅਉਜਾਤਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਿਆਰੁ ਚਮਈਆ ॥ 
naamaa jaidhaeo kanbeer thrilochan aoujaath ravidhaas chamiaar chameeaa ||
Naam Dayv, Jai Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan and Ravi Daas the low-caste leather-worker,  

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟੁ ਸੈਣੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਦਈਆ ॥੭॥ 
jo jo milai saadhhoo jan sangath dhhan dhhannaa jatt sain miliaa har dheeaa ||7||
blessed Dhanna and Sain; all those who joined the humble Saadh Sangat, met the Merciful Lord. ||7|| 

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਹਰਿ ਪੈਜ ਰਖਾਈ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਈਆ ॥ 
santh janaa kee har paij rakhaaee bhagath vashhal angeekaar kareeaa ||
The Lord protects the honor of His humble servants; He is the Lover of His devotees - He makes them His own.
~SGGS Ji p. 835​





> In religious scriptures the words play in the same sense.” Darshan dejai Khol ke Vaar”( means open the door I can see you” but there is no real door behind which Lord lives, all expressions are metaphoric Never ever get stuck to its appearance, go further deep into its application in the context.


For example, you have the view that "darshan" is just poetic license, to make words rhyme or convey emotional idea when in fact, there is no real door.

When I read _darshan_ relating to opening of _dasm duar_ in Gurbani, I don't have that opinion which you say requires being well-versed in poetic metaphors.  I am however, somewhat versed in Vedic terminology and I know that it relates to a yogic concept of expanding one's consciousness to reach the fourth state which transcends the materiality of sansaaric vision and gives darshan of other worlds and of the God Himself because it refers to attaining a spiritual state of consciousness which has been purified of the contaminants that block our sight.  I happen to believe this is valid and literal, and not mere poetry.  When I read Gurbani, I read as a historically true, scientifically sound, rooted in ancient truths, modern as well as timeless teachings.  I do NOT read it as pleasant poetry talking about some "nice" but realistically meaningless concepts.  Such concepts may seem that way to someone not familiar with the ancient basis of these teachings, the Vedic Puranas and Yoga sutras.  



ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਕੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਕਿਵਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
thujh bin surath karai ko maeree dharasan dheejai kholih kivaar ||1|| rehaao ||
Who else can take care of me, other than You? Please open Your door, and grant me the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 856​



ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਕਾਇਆ ਕੋਟੁ ਹੈ ਦਸਵੈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਰਖੀਜੈ ॥ 
no dharavaajae kaaeiaa kott hai dhasavai gupath rakheejai ||
The fortress of the body has nine gates; the tenth gate is kept hidden.

ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ਨ ਖੁਲਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਖੁਲੀਜੈ ॥ 
bajar kapaatt n khulanee gur sabadh khuleejai ||
The rigid door is not open; only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad can it be opened.

ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ਧੁਨਿ ਵਜਦੇ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਣੀਜੈ ॥ 
anehadh vaajae dhhun vajadhae gur sabadh suneejai ||
The unstruck sound current resounds and vibrates there. The Word of the Guru's Shabad is heard. 

ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਕਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੀਜੈ ॥ 
thith ghatt anthar chaananaa kar bhagath mileejai ||
Deep within the nucleus of the heart, the Divine Light shines forth. Through devotional worship, one meets the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 954​


When Gurbani is talking about a door to the Lord's darshan, it is reference to the tenth gate.  You believe this "door" is poetic imagination.  Well, that's fine.  Believe as you wish.  But anyone with even basic yogic knowledge knows there is a thousands year old tradition behind these "metaphors" of Gurbani poetry to something very real.

"Having slit open the divider of the skull, he indeed, entered the body by that door. That door is called vidrti. It is the place of joy. For him there are three abodes and three dreams. This is the abode. This is the abode. This is the abode." ~Aitareya Upanishad, ch 3, sloka 12​


> What is the portal of entry for this enjoyer? Where are the gates by which the enjoyer can enter, animate, and spiritualize this body? (The nine gates of the body are the two eyes, the two ears, the two nostrils, one mouth, one generative, and one reproductive organ). There are two portals in the body for entry, namely the crown and the forefoot. In the crown, it is *Vidrti [split or crevice]*, the opening (brahma-randhra) in the sagittal suture of the skull, also known as anterior fontanel―the area corresponding to the soft spot on the top of the baby’s head. It is sahasrara, the highest center of spiritual consciousness in Kundalini yoga and the seat of the thousand-petalled lotus.
> 
> By this portal, the self enters the body; the self from the time of entry into the body moves among three abodes of residence according to the level of consciousness: wakefulness, dream sleep, and deep sleep; Turiya is the fourth state experienced only by yogis. The right eye is the abode during the wakefulness, the inner mind during dream sleep, and the space in the heart during deep sleep.  ~Veeraswamy Krishnaraj
> Creation and Dissolution






> The human body is usually called “the city of nine gates” for the nine apertures of the body, but here it has the number eleven. Shankara says this is because the navel and the Brahmarandhra, the “soft spot” at the crown of the head are also being counted as gates. This is appropriate, as before birth we are nourished through the navel, and at death we often depart through the Brahmarandhra.
> ATMA JYOTI ASHRAM - Katha Upanishad - The Birthless Self






ਨਾਭਿ ਪਵਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਸਣਿ ਬੈਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਤ ਤਤੁ ਲਹੈ ॥
naabh pavan ghar aasan baisai guramukh khojath thath lehai ||
The breath is seated in the home of the navel; the Gurmukh searches, and finds the essence of reality.

ਸੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਆਛੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਜੋਤਿ ਸੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਹੈ ॥ 
s sabadh niranthar nij ghar aashhai thribhavan joth s sabadh lehai ||
This Shabad permeates the nucleus of the self, deep within, in its own home; the Light of this Shabad pervades the three worlds.
~SGGS Ji p. 945​


Now, when Gurbani is talking about _"the Lord's darshan,"_ again, this is a very old philosophical concept rooted in Upanishadic wisdom and a true mystical teaching rather than poetic license or flowery words.  _"Darshan of the Lord"_ is a Dvaitic philosophy as it refers to a God which can be perceived and thus sargun manifestation, or personal God.  Vaishnavism is famous for this approach to God realization, and bhakti is considered the way to have His darshan.  What has been added within the Vaishnav perspective is the blending of Advaitist teaching that mukti is also merging with the Divine Beloved in a higher state of consciousness, turiya.

So when analyzing the yogic principle underlying Guruji's teaching, it becomes apparent that this process of achieving the fourth state involves bhairaag and bhakti, Naama japa, and the sound current of the Shabad.  Is this teaching completely new as a revelation to the world?  Or is it a re-establishing of an ancient truth?  Everyone will have to decide for themselves based on the available evidence.



> Just as a sankalpa - a pure thought - has to pass through several stages before it actually manifests as concrete creative force, the sound of a particular mantra also has to pass through several stages before it is fully experienced by the listener in perfection. These stages are termed as para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari.
> 
> Each level of sound corresponds to a level of existence, and one's experience of sound depends upon the refinement of one's consciousness.  It takes a realized consciousness to experience the full range of sound, the full range of existence. The seers who can comprehend the four stages of sound are known as Manishis.
> 
> The higher three forms of shabda are described in the Rig Veda as hidden in "guha", or within the self, whereas the forth is the external manifested speech, known as laukika bhasha.
> 
> These four levels of sound correspond to four states of consciousness. Para represents the transcendental consciousness. Pashyanti represents the intellectual consciousness. Madhyama represents the mental consciousness. And Vaikhari represents the physical consciousness. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.
> 
> *Shabda-brahman* in its absolute nature is called para. In manifestation the subtle is always the source of the gross, and thus from para-vak manifests the other three forms of sound." ~Jahnava Nitai Das
> VEDA - Vedas and Vedic Knowledge Online - Vedic Encyclopedia, Bhakti-yoga in vedas, Library​






> Before I give you Gurbani quotes to prove my point that Mukti as per Sikhism is not the same as Vaishanavas.


Your understanding of Vaishnavism is very poor and as a consequence, you imagine differences where there are none.



> We know a relationship exists between Kabir ji and Sikhism, so what do Kabir panthis think about concepts of narak surag? Do they even believe in them?
> I gave quote from Kabir ji himself why we need Kabir panthy now? It is also known as bouncing all over unnecessarily.


Because anyone with scholarly integrity will acknowledge the beliefs of the Kabir panthis about their primary Satguru, Kabir ji will have a truer reflection on who he was, and what he taught.  So if we are analyzing the bhagat bani, as well as Guruji's own bani which has collectively been united to become Gurubani, then the definitions which Kabir ji held will most likely be the true ones, as opposed to the newer modernistic definitions imposed on traditional concepts such as Narak Surag.  So with integrity, to analyze both the Kabir panthi and Vaishnava interpretation wyhich is rooted in ancient Upanishadic teaching is far more credible as to the origin of such concepts as appear in Gurbani.

I have heard many Sikhs say the Nirmala Panth is based on a lie and a presumption, that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never sent 5 of His Sikhs to study the Vedas, because "Why would He need?"  Yet, simple analysis of the Sanskrit terminology in Gurbani, which absolutely lines up and corresponds with Vaishnava Vedanatic interpretations being so completely re-defined in imaginative and unmeaningful, negating ways (such as poetic license or rare skepticism) would be all the example one needs to believe the valid establishment of Nirmala Panth.  Not to mention the other point of evidence being Shri Dasam Granth bani almost totally filled with Vedantic stories, teachings and religion.  And why do Udasi and Nirmala Panths and Dasam Granth bani even exist?  Because there was NO relation between Shaivite yoga and Vaishnav bhakti and Gurbani?  Or because there was?



> In Gurbani, words are restructured. Ignorant and fanatic Hindu Dayaa Nand Called Guru Nanak illiterate just by looking at a word “ bhao” So please do a justice to Gurbani, in stead of heavily depending on second hand knowledge; as you are intelligent, learn Gurmukhi and Punjabi, you will see the same words loaded with totally new meanings in original.


Why don't you stop being personally insulting about me as an individual and at least acknowledge that the terms we have in contention are Sanskrit and not even Punjabi.  And as I am sharing the Vedic origin and definitions of the Sanskrit words, and as there are Panths within Sikh tradition which have been teaching the exact same interpretations I am sharing now, to insult or tear me down as a person, cannot possibly invalidate in the way you hope. How can you make the entire Nirmala Panth just go away?  Are they not scholars of Punjabi and Gurmukhi as well as Sanskrit?  And besides, Shri Dasam Granth bani is written in Braj.  So again, your personal slight has no bearing on the issue, is argumentative and distracting and does not invalidate or establish points of contention as to the origin, meaning and interpretation of Sanskrit concepts in Gurbani.



> Here is direct negation on prevailed Mukti in any faith at Guru Nanak’s time. You will see, in Gurbani, still Mukti word is used but its meaning is not understood as in Vashnav or Hinduism.
> 
> ਪੰਨਾ 534, ਸਤਰ 4
> ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉਮੁਕਤਿ ਨਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
> राजु न चाहउ मुकति न चाहउ मनि प्रीति चरन कमलारे ॥
> Rāj na cẖāha*o mukaṯ na cẖāha*o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlārė.
> I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.
> ਮਃ 5
> Why not Mukti is needed Bhain ji ? all Vashanav and Hindu etc ideology stress on it, here Guru ji says, no it not needed just one thing is important, that is HIS love


Perhaps you are not aware that Vaishnava Vedanta is the original bhakti Panth.  The only thing negating is your imagination which is deliberately misconstruing the teachings of vaishnavism to correlate them as the worst of brahmin excesses and corruption.  Since the Bhagavatam absolutely teaches that God, nirgun and sargun (by those exact definitions) is obtained by bhakti, loving devotion expressed by Naam japo, your words are simply empty in this regard as they are a contradiction of known facts.



> Guruji did not even modify Vaishnava philosophy at all, but actually teaches it.
> That is a direct insult to Guru’s own originality, I resent that. As there is a saying in Punjabi, “when a hungry person was asked, how much is two plus two?’” “The reply was, “four chapatees( loaf of bread) instead of saying “four” as answer.”
> That is what the case is here. You studied Vashanav, every thing you see is Vashnav in Guru teachings. You should think before you say such words about Guru.


Can someone insult God?  Even this is an Abrahamic concept.  Resent all you want.  Guruji is a Vishnu avtaara.  Naturally He will have commonality with Himself.  Guru is unique in that this entire philosophy is unique and coherent unity.  Only the interpretations that Guruji established something utterly new and contradictory or in violation of Sruti is the imagination.  Who can recite:



ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​


And then create fallacy that Vedas are worthless and deny every parallel teaching within Gurbani itself which has Vedic and Upanishadic sources is reminding of Shakespeare: "Methinks he doth protest too much."  How can anyone interpret the Abrahamic distortion that Guruji denied the reality of devas, or that devas are completely corrupt and worthless and therefore all Hindu religion in general is corrupt and worthless.  And the whole thing is a distorion not only of the bani, but of Hinduism, most particularly because Vaisnavism  as well as Vedas and Upanishads teach the Omkar is part of creation, under influence of maya and three gunas, and hence corruptible and do not approach the limits of the nirguna?  So it's the same exact teaching within Vedanta as in Gurbani, who invented the deliberate distortion negating Vaishnava Vedanta as an invalid path to mukti?

And one only needs to look at the condition of the Sikh Panth today and ask, what is the basis for the arrogant assumption that Sikhs are any closer to mukti as a community than anybody else?  And when you realistically see the same stresses, the same corruption, the same hypocrisy, the same worldliness, the same ignorance that every other religious community has, it begs the question... "What is so unique in Sikhism that shows the world this is the only boat of mukti in the Kaliyug?"

And I can't answer that question in any positive way.  Sikhs are very nice people, but are just like everybody else.  I don't personally know anyone who is even close to mukti.  And I'm being honest.  I've seen a man beaten and dragged off by committee members in Gurdwara over some power struggle or other.  I watched my divorced amritdhari friend become completely ostracized in the Gurdwara, because her ex-husband was rich and powerful and a committee member.  No one cared that he didn't keep amrit, except in appearance, drank, had affairs and beat her.  They ostracized and rejected her AND her children.  And I watched heartbreaking things repeatedly done at this Gurdwara.

So I'm saying we should be analyzing the spirituality, and not just the arrogant assumptions of superiority of doctrine, or exclusionary teaching.  Because in this way Sikhism is parroting Abrahamic religions and losing something Divine of it's authentic Indic heritage.  Every manifestation of God which people imagine, is a part of the nirgun God Himself.  Gurbani says this in the very concept of Ik Onkar.  The creation, beginning with Trimurti, Onkara, is One, with the Divine Oneness of the All-Pervading.  Everyone has their own understanding.  Who can say Hindus will not achieve mukti?  Even Gurbani itself equates a Vaishnav with a Gurmukh.  

Do you think authentically spiritual people of Hindu religion are less a saint, are less holy because they are not Sikhs?  Do you think Sikhs, just by virtue of being born in Punjabi Sikh community have any speacial spirituality or are immune from corruption or worldly attraction?  Do you really think all the millionaire liquor store owners, deli meat store owners, etc whose wives dress in expensive suits and jewely and make-up, who don't bother to say fateh to someone not their caste or social equal are any different from anyone else in any other religion?  Maybe that criteria of fluency in Gurmukhi and Punjabi is not an accurate indicator of spiritual maturity.  

Too often langar is about feeding Sikhs in a Gurdwara who are members of one community.  I acknowldge when there have been disasters like Hurricane Katrina Sikhs were there, but why aren't Sikhs _always_ there?  Why is langar being limited to richly feeding our own?  The fact is, the Vaishnavas are feeding poor people all over the world, they are taking prasad to them.  Look at Amritanandamayi, not only does she feed people in kitchens all over the world, but has established orphanages, schools, a major hospital, and when the Tsunami caused so much destruction, she built thousands of houses.  Are these people without a boat of mukti because they are Hindu?  And by what criteria do we say Sikhs have God in the pocket?

Let's get real.  You know holy people by the way they live their lives, by the way their spiritual teachings impact other people's lives.  And I cannot in good conscience elevate Sikhs or denounce Hindus as lights of holiness in the Kaliyug.  So something needs to be evaluated in terms of what is missing in Sikhism today that has estranged most people from the spiritual philosophies of authentic transformation? 


I shall vanish (from sight) having given a kingdom; My name being Gobind.  There will be a time when the Khalsa shall forget the teachings I have given them. Sikhi will only be left in name. Many Wars shall occur.  I will have to return again to resurrect the Khalsa. They shall reside in the Punjab. 

I shall make people from all four corners into one.
~Karni Nama, Sau Sakhi​

YouTube - Vandana Shiva on Biodiversity, seed banks and suicide famers

YouTube - Hare Krishna Food for Life & restaurants

YouTube - Amma - Helping Tsunami Orphans

YouTube - Amma On CNN


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## pk70

Do you realize how arrogant this sounds? First you proved nothing, except how your own views could be different. As I showed how Gurbani does in fact have an interpretation which is not well known by mainstream Sikhs, but in fact has a long history within the Panth, and within those Jathas who embrace a form of Sikhism but are not considered within the Panth. And I mean the Nihangs, certain views (but not all) of sants within Dam Dami Taksal and Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh ji of AKJ, Nirmalas, and also Naamdharis and Udasis.

* Respected Bhain Ji,you are too emotional, in debate, emotions have no place. Given reasons you deny, like Guru ji’s own words about “ Mukti”, It is called showing your back to the Truth described by Guru Ji.  your hammering goes on even after seeing the nail has gone deep in. What is the use of those quotes? None.( in your views)*
*What is importance of Guru’s own words about enlightenment before  smoldering of  Vashbava? None( in your views)*
  What does a poem in Urdu have to do with anything? I
*I translated it and explained how words convey much more meaning than their structure, it sounds strange to you , I am not surprised..*
In Indian religions, Moksha (Sanskrit: मोक्ष mokṣa, liberation) or Mukti (Sanskrit: मुक्ति, release) is liberation from samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth and all of the suffering and limitation of worldly existence. In Hindu philosophy, it is seen as a transcendence of phenomenal being, a state of higher consciousness, in which matter, energy, time, space, causation (karma) and the other features of empirical reality are understood as maya.
*I do not care what you quote. In that Urdu translated line I explained you “ death” changes meaning, just as in Gurbani “ jivat marna” doesn’t mean literally death. Keep that mukti the way you want, Gurbani rejects that with new meaning*.
  There is no other religion in the world which parallels so exactly. Christianity has no concept of mukti. Islam has no concept of mukti. Buddhism has, but it has no concept of a personal God and even it's concept of mukti comes from Vedic sources. To make the exaggerated claim that because both Vedanta and Sikhi use the term mukti, they use it in a mutually exclusive manner which sets them apart is wishful thinking. It points to Singh Sabhia influence which tried to downplay any and all association with ancient Vedantic teachings
*Sikhism has redefined Mukti, quotes were already given, now attitude is “ who cares?” You reject Gurbani that doest align with fully Vaishanva and Hinduism; otherwise quotes are used just for convenient.*

(Quote)*Why in the modern era is this hostility, negation and denial of Vedantic validity? And I believe it has to do with politicized interpretations of religion which mimic Abrahamic intolerance and insensitivity to undermine every other faith as invalid. *
*It is not them, it is SGGS Ji, Mukti is achieved while being alive, testimony of Guru ji and Bhagat is there.*
  For example, you have the view that "darshan" is just poetic license, to make words rhyme or convey emotional idea when in fact, there is no real door.

When I read _darshan_ relating to opening of _dasm duar_ in Gurbani
*A sheer display of ignorance about poetic truth*, *There is no door, an illusions is eliminated, soul gets elevated, I forgot Bhain Ji, you have to go with all upnishdas, vedas’s meaning contrary to personal experience detailed in Gurbani. Disagreement is inevitable. So keep up your search, sorry it is not useful for those who want to just follow Guru. People are more interested in fruit than where the fruit tree was, how it was grown *

  Now, when Gurbani is talking about _"the Lord's darshan,"_ again, this is a very old philosophical concept rooted in Upanishadic wisdom and a true mystical teaching rather than poetic license or flowery words. _"Darshan of the Lord"_ is a Dvaitic philosophy as it refers to a God which can be perceived and thus sargun manifestation, or personal God.
*Keep digging and proving Guru ji borrowed every thing from your favorites, why should I care?*
  Your understanding of Vaishnavism is very poor and as a consequence, you imagine differences where there are none.
*So it be Bhain Jo,( and I do not intent to waste my time on such gimmicks ) you the expert failed to come up with otherwise,  in this post no mention of Hukm, Grace Of God and the last but not least, outright modification of Mukti as I advocated as per Gurbani. Just bringing quotes from INTERNET shops, can impress others how much you studied, it doesn’t change the truth. I am dead at Guru’s door, for me, he taught  what he was enlightened with by the special grace of God;  the so called Sikhs, if try to accuse him borrowing from Vashnava or Hinduism, they are literally immaterial to me. I believe every word he wrote down, you, the expert, keep digging, all is His Ordinance. Good luck. *

Do you think authentically spiritual people of Hindu religion are less a saint, are less holy because they are not Sikhs? Do you think Sikhs, just by virtue of being born in Punjabi Sikh community have any speacial spirituality or are immune from corruption or worldly attraction? Do you really think all the millionaire liquor store owners, deli meat store owners, etc whose wives dress in expensive suits and jewely and make-up, who don't bother to say fateh to someone not their caste or social equal are any different from anyone else in any other religion? Maybe that criteria of fluency in Gurmukhi and Punjabi is not an accurate indicator of spiritual maturity. 

Too often langar is about feeding Sikhs in a Gurdwara who are members of one community. I acknowldge when there have been disasters like Hurricane Katrina Sikhs were there, but why aren't Sikhs _always_ there? Why is langar being limited to richly feeding our own? The fact is, the Vaishnavas are feeding poor people all over the world, they are taking prasad to them. Look at Amritanandamayi, not only does she feed people in kitchens all over the world, but has established orphanages, schools, a major hospital, and when the Tsunami caused so much destruction, she built thousands of houses. Are these people without a boat of mukti because they are Hindu? And by what criteria do we 
  say Sikhs have God in the pocket?

*If you are a good Sikh, kindly prove if ever I have advocated Punjabi Sikhs, criticized Vashnava or other good people doing good things.  I strongly resent that. What right do you have to attack me like this from no where. Are we debating who [/FONT]**is batter Sikhs or others? If no why these accusations.This is my last response to your comments. For a record, all Sikhs are not and cannot be better than all others as others cannot be better or bad. Good ones are in every faiths. Good spirited people forgive who are living under limitations as per AkaalPurakh's Hukam. I pray the Super Power you believe in, bless you with more humbleness and subtleness. I wish I didn't read your above comments. It is sad, it came from you.Thanks.

[/FONT]*


----------



## Randip Singh

Having read through the posts finally I think there is one glaring reason why Vaishnavite thought cannot be compatible with Sikh thought. That is the notion of Ahimsa oe non-violence.

Sikh's are by no means warmongers, but they strongly believe that "when all other mean have been exhausted, it is righteous to draw the sword". 

On this one phrase Mahatma Ghandhi (a out and out Vashnavite), called Guru Gobind Singh ji a "misguided patriot".

I see nothing misguided about wanting to defend your freedom and right to existence, and therin is the reason why Sikhi and Vashnavism can never ever be compatible.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Having read through the posts finally I think there is one glaring reason why Vaishnavite thought cannot be compatible with Sikh thought. That is the notion of Ahimsa of non-violence.


Gandhi had a lot of Jain influences. Ahimsa is also very much misunderstood.  Is Hindutva proponent of Ahimsa?  Yet many of them are also Vaishnav.  So we go back to fundamental interpretation.

When it comes to Gurbani, violence for it's own sake is not propagated.  Sikhism absolutely is a Dharmic path.  Gandhian non-violence as a political philosophy was a huge failure which led to the violence of partition.  It was precisely his failure to act at a crucial juncture to consolidate the unity of India, and pacifistic policies of appeasement with Muslims which divided the country.  Just because this man was Vaishnava doesn't mean this is sole interpretation of Vaishnava Vedanta.

To protect the Dharma is the highest good, is the message of Bhagavad-Gita.  Bhagavan Krishna tells Arjuna how unmanly it is for him to sink down in the chariot with misguided intentions.  Honor for the righteous warrior is righteous combat.

So again, it can be proved from significant sources that entire Sikh philosophy of defending the Dharma as the highest good comes from Vaishnav sources.  Sikhism is not a teaching of violence for the sake of ego or as a means to an end.  It is the last resort to defend the helpless.  So Gandhi, who invented terms such as "satyagrahis" was imparting a false pacifism more akin to Buddhism and Jain religion than teachings of Bhagavad-Gita.


Arjuna's pacifist plea:


> "Tutors, sons and fathers, grandsires and grandsons, uncles and nephews, cousins, kindred, and friends! Although they would kill me, I wish not to fight them: no, not even for the dominion of the three regions of the universe, much less for this little earth!  Should we destroy them, tyrants though they are, sin would take refuge with us. It therefore behooveth us not to kill such near relations as these. How, O Krishna, can we be happy hereafter, when we have been the murderers of our race?
> 
> O Krishna, that a sojourn in hell awaits those mortals whose generation hath lost its virtue. Woe is me! What a great crime are we prepared to commit! Alas! that from the desire for sovereignty and pleasure we stand here ready to slay our own kin! I would rather patiently suffer that the sons of Dhritarashtra, with their weapons in their hands, should come upon me, and, unopposed, kill me unresisting in the field."
> 
> When Arjuna had ceased to speak, he sat down in the chariot between the two armies; and, having put away his bow and arrows, his heart was overwhelmed with despondency."
> ~Bhagavad-Gita ch 1


Did the teaching of Bhagavad-Gita say Arjuna was correct?  Was this Gandhian pacifism rewarded as spiritual teaching?  Let's read more.

Krishna's rebuke:


> "Krishna, beholding him thus influenced by compunction, his eyes overflowing with a flood of tears, and his heart oppressed with deep affliction, addressed him in the following words:
> 
> "Whence, O Arjuna, cometh upon thee this dejection in matters of difficulty, so unworthy of the honorable, and leading neither to heaven nor to glory? It is disgraceful, contrary to duty, and the foundation of dishonor. Yield not thus to unmanliness, for it ill-becometh one like thee. Abandon, O tormenter of thy foes, this despicable weakness of thy heart, and stand up."
> 
> Arjuna:
> "How, O slayer of Madhu, shall I with my shafts contend in battle against such as Bhishma and Drona, who of all men are most worthy of my respect? For it were better to beg my bread about the world than be the murderer of my preceptors, to whom such awful reverence is due. Were I to destroy such friends as these, I should partake of possessions, wealth, and pleasures polluted with their blood. Nor can we tell whether it would be better that we should defeat them, or they us. For those drawn up, angrily confronting us -- and after whose death, should they perish by my hand, I would not wish to live -- are the sons and people of Dhritarashtra. As I am of a disposition which is affected by compassion and the fear of doing wrong, I ask thee which is it better to do."
> 
> Arjuna having thus spoken to Krishna, became silent, saying: "I shall not fight, O Govinda." Krishna, tenderly smiling, addressed these words to the prince thus standing downcast between the two armies.
> 
> Krishna:
> ""Thou grievest for those that may not be lamented, whilst thy sentiments are those of the expounders of the letter of the law. Those who are wise in spiritual things grieve neither for the dead nor for the living. I myself never was not, nor thou, nor all the princes of the earth; nor shall we ever hereafter cease to be. As the lord of this mortal frame experienceth therein infancy, youth, and old age, so in future incarnations will it meet the same. One who is confirmed in this belief is not disturbed by anything that may come to pass. The senses, moving toward their appropriate objects, are producers of heat and cold, pleasure and pain, which come and go and are brief and changeable; these do thou endure, O son of Bharata! For the wise man, whom these disturb not and to whom pain and pleasure are the same, is fitted for immortality.
> 
> There is no existence for that which does not exist, nor is there any non-existence for what exists. By those who see the truth and look into the principles of things, the ultimate characteristic of these both is seen. Learn that He by whom all things were formed is incorruptible, and that no one is able to effect the destruction of IT which is inexhaustible. These finite bodies, which envelop the souls inhabiting them, are said to belong to Him, the eternal, the indestructible, unprovable Spirit, who is in the body: wherefore, O Arjuna, resolve to fight. The man who believeth that it is this Spirit which killeth, and he who thinketh that it may be destroyed, are both alike deceived; for it neither killeth nor is it killed.
> 
> This spirit can never be destroyed in the mortal frame which it inhabiteth, hence it is unworthy for thee to be troubled for all these mortals. Cast but thine eyes towards the duties of thy particular tribe, and it will ill become thee to tremble. A soldier of the Kshatriya (1) tribe hath no duty superior to lawful war, and just to thy wish the door of heaven is found open before thee, through this glorious unsought fight which only fortune's favored soldiers may obtain. But if thou wilt not perform the duty of thy calling and fight out the field, thou wilt abandon thy natural duty and thy honor, and be guilty of a crime. Mankind will speak of thy ill fame as infinite, and for one who hath been respected in the world ill fame is worse than death.
> 
> The generals of the armies will think that thy retirement from the field arose from fear, and even amongst those by whom thou wert wont to be thought great of soul thou shalt become despicable. Thine enemies will speak of thee in words which are unworthy to be spoken, depreciating thy courage and abilities; what can be more dreadful than this! If thou art slain thou shalt attain heaven; if victorious, the world shall be thy reward; wherefore, son of Kunti, arise with determination fixed for the battle. Make pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat, the same to thee, and then prepare for battle, for thus and thus alone shalt thou in action still be free from sin."



Which is the more logical approach, to say Sant Jarnail Singh Bindranwale's beliefs and actions were the example of every Sikh Jatha and sect, or the teachings directly from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?  Likewise, how can M.K. Gandhi be anything more than an example of a particular interpretation, which even within Vaishnavism are differences, most notably the direct teachings from Bhagavad-Gita?  To be honest, this again, sounds like the oversimplified distorted comparisons arising from Singh Sabha reform to exaggerate differences in a desperate attempt to disprove and deny commonalities.  But with historical integrity, such oversimplifications hold no credibility.

Just as no one can say Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale represents all Sikh teaching, how can anyone say M.K. Gandhi does also?  Vaishnavism has a sannyasi heritage, and what is not popularly known is the warrior monk heritage during the time of the moghuls and who also resisted the British.  It was in fact the Shaivaite and Vaishnava monks who became fearsome warriors who admitted the low caste and even women into their ranks.  Does this sound familiar to Sikhism?  As I said before, the historical parallels are unmistakable... unless one refuses to acknowledge them.



> One early encounter, recorded by the noted Company surveyor James Rennell who at the time (1766) was mapping territory just south of the Himalayan foothill kingdom of Bhutan, bears testimony to the *martial potential of armed monks and the resentment of armed sadhus* at the new impositions being placed on them by the Company state. Rennell happened upon a skirmish in progress between Company troops and a force of seven hundred such sadhus; the wounds he received included a saber gash that “cut through my right Shoulder Bone, and laid me open for nearly a foot down the Back, cutting through and wounding some of my Ribs, . . . a cut on the left Elbow, which took off the muscular part of the breadth of a Hand, a Stab in the Arm, and a large cut on the head.”[6]
> 
> The Company prevailed in that particular confrontation,* but over three decades would pass before the akharas (monastic armies) would be disarmed* in Bengal or, at the very least, driven beyond Company-controlled territories. *This prolonged confrontation between Company soldiers and armed sadhus is generally understood in terms of the Company desire to establish itself as militarily supreme in the province of Bengal.* Rarely, if ever, are the ideological implications of the conflict examined by social historians, and the term “rebellion,” considered a political overstatement given the nature of the conflict, seems now to have been discarded.[7] However, the phenomenon of *armed monasticism* certainly posed more than simply a “law and order” challenge for newly ascendant Company officials. Armed sadhus were the very antithesis of the world the company-state was endeavoring to create in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, namely, a settled peasant society that would render forth vast agrarian revenues on a regular basis with as little resistance as possible. *The modern state in India could not countenance recalcitrant sadhus wandering about the countryside armed, dangerous, often naked, and claiming to represent an alternate locus of authority.*[8] The Company needed a modern sadhu: a priestly monk unconcerned with worldly power and given over completely to religious contemplation and prayer. Hence Warren Hastings’s proclamation of 21 January 1773 banishing “all Biraugies and Sunnasses [bairagis and sanyasis, or armed Vaishnava and Shaiva monks] who are travellers strangers and passengers in this country” from the provinces of Bengal and Bihar, save “such of the cast of Rammanundar and Goraak [Ramanand and Gorakhnath] who have for a long time been settled and receive a maintenance in land money . . . from the Government or the Zemindars of the province, [and] likewise such Sunasses as are allowed charity ground for executing religious offices.” *In other words, those sadhus who were “neither vagrants nor plunderers but fixed inhabitants,” who “quietly employ themselves in their religious function,” could, in Hastings’s view, be tolerated.*[9]
> 
> Armed monasticism holds more than just military and political-cultural interest, however. There are indications that *the rise of Vaishnava and Shaiva monastic soldiering afforded, or in some way reflected, increased entry of people of low social status, particularly those deemed shudra by the twice-born elite, into the major monastic orders in Gangetic north India. In this sense, the history of the armed akharas is not unlike that of the Sikhs in the Punjab, the arming of whom, according to W. H. McLeod, was occasioned by the prolonged infusion of Jat peasants into the Nanakpanthi community.*[10] By the eighteenth century the profusion of Jat Sikhs cemented in demographic fact the professed egalitarianism that had long been a powerful ideological component of Guru Nanak’s teaching. Hence for McLeod, Sikh hagiography (which speaks of a unilateral decision on the part of Guru Govind Singh to militarize the Nanakpanth in 1699) masks slow processes of social and demographic transformation.
> 
> Similarly, it is possible to perceive the social dimensions of militarization by looking within Shaiva and Vaishnava monastic traditions regarding the decision to take up arms. For example, a widely accepted Dasnami legend recorded by J. N. Farquhar in the early twentieth century held that *Shaiva monks took up arms during the reign (and with the approval) of the Mughal emperor Akbar (r. 1556–1605) to defend brahman sanyasis against the persecutions of Muslim fakirs. *While the motivational elements of this tradition can be challenged on the basis of both historical and historiographical evidence, it is perhaps more significant that Farquhar also related his general impression that the arming of Shaivas relied on the heavy recruitment of shudras into the elite ranks of the Dasnami order.[11] Whether shudras were indeed actively recruited as soldier Dasnamis, or whether the assertion of past military recruitment became a convenient way of explaining the increasing number of shudras in the order, the fact remains that today certain segments of orthodox, high-caste Dasnamis avoid commensal relations with warrior monks because of the latter’s supposedly low origins.[12]
> 
> One can see stronger suggestions of the involvement of shudras (and, indeed, others of low and marginal status such as women and untouchables) in traditions relating to Vaishnava monastic soldiering. One important Vaishnava narrative holds that the arming of bairagis was the product of a conscious decision made in 1713 by leaders of the four main Vaishnava sampraday—often referred to collectively as the chatuh-sampraday, namely, the orders organized around the teachings of Vishnuswami, Madhvacharya, Nimbarkacharya, and Ramanujacharya (in which Ramanandis were included).[13] According to this tradition, the major Vaishnava mahants met at Galta, a temple complex and monastic center very near Jaipur, and decided to resort to arms to defend against increasing attacks by Shaiva monks. Significantly, the Galta meeting in 1713 also marked the emergence of Ramanandis (those who look to Swami Ramanand for inspiration) as the dominant force not only among the followers of Ramanujacharya’s teachings, but among Vaishnavas in north India generally.[14] The Galta tradition provides an interesting twist, however: it was also decided in 1713 to declare the untouchable, shudra, and female members of Ramanand’s original fourteenth-century coterie of disciples as “illegitimate” transmitters of tradition; in other words, untouchables, shudras, and women would continue to be admitted as Ramanandi novitiates, but henceforth they would have to link themselves to the Ramanandi past via one of the original male, twice-born (in this case, either brahman or kshatriya) disciples of Ramanand.
> Peasants and Monks in British India



See also Warrior Ascetics And Indian Empires

Shaivite and Vaishnava ascetic acharas were considered monastic armies.  Some of the fiercest were the Shaivite naga babas.  How can this forgotten history jibe with the colonialist pacifism of Gandhian ahimsa?  It doesn't even accord with the teachings of the Bhagavad-Gita.  The main factor in this religious focus of this militarism was "protection of the Dharma" and so they considered themselves "holy Armies."  Or, "Armies of God."  Does the formation of the Khalsa seem out of place within this historical background?



> I see nothing misguided about wanting to defend your freedom and right to existence, and therin is the reason why Sikhi and Vashnavism can never ever be compatible.


It isn't incompatible.  Ancient Vaishnava and Shaivite scriptures are the source for warrior self-defense and defense of the helpless as positive Dharmic duty.  It's only deliberate distortions of history which permit such beliefs about incompatibility.  People should be shocked that so much they have learned historically was deliberately distorted.  It should be a matter of genuine curiosity why Gandhian ahimsa is portrayed as a Vaishnav teaching, and not Bhagavan Krishna urging Arjuna to fight like a soldier indifferent to the outcome, but to fight, win or lose, because it is righteous and noble to fight for a just cause.

There is a reason the avtaars are K'shatriya.  It is the duty of the avtaars to destroy evil, and set the dharma on balance again.  That is the essence of Vaishnavism, not ahimsa.




Narasingh avtaar, the Lion-man who roars and causes others to roar.  Shown here destroying the demon king Hiranyakasipu.  Not exactly ahimsa.





Narasingh destroys the demons.  Notice the chakr in his hands?


Why do you think Kalki avtaara is called, "Kalki the destroyer?"  It is not because he is powerless or non-violent.  Rather he will use destructive ends to achieve his means.  He has to destroy the corrupted K'shatriya who contaminate and subjugate the world to right the Dharmic balance.  This is the meaning of the demons who take human form in kaliyug in Gurbani.  The teachings of Kalki the destroyer tell that in Kaliyug demons are born as evil warriors.













B2 Spirit Bomber, American Air Force.  If you want to understand about evil warrior Armies that contaminate the world, read about the vimanas of the asuras.  


ਕਲੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿੰਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ॥ 
kalee andhar naanakaa jinnaan dhaa aouthaar ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, the demons have taken birth.
~SGGS Ji p. 556​

YouTube - Neutron Bomb creator speaks

"Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas." ~Mahabharata​
~Bhul chak maaf


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

f





> It is not them, it is SGGS Ji, Mukti is achieved while being alive, testimony of Guru ji and Bhagat is there.


The concept of jivan mukti comes from the Upanishads originally, and is restated in SGGS Ji, not for the first time introduced in SGGS Ji.  This "presumed" incompatibility is simply lack of knowledge of Upanishadic philosophy.  Jivan mukti isn't a Punjabi word or concept, again, it is Sanskrit and has very ancient origin.  Gurbani doesn't change this concept at all.  It simply borrows the concept, to express in Punjabi language, a true spiritual teaching.



> Jivanmukta (from the Sanskrit words jiva and mukti) is someone who, in the advaita philosophy of Hinduism, has attained nirvikalpa samadhi - the realization of the Self, Parasiva - and is liberated from rebirth while living in a human body. [1]
> 
> Jiivanmukta is a unique concept in Hindu philosophy, particularly in the school of philosophy known as advaita. The ultimate goal of Hinduism is liberation from the cycles of re-birth. This liberation is technically called 'moksha'. In all schools of Hindu philosophy except advaita, liberation is necessarily an event beyond the experience of human being. But the advaita school of Shankara envisages that human is already liberated and the soul is already free - one only has only to realise, and to accept, this freedom. Souls who have had this realisation are called jivanmuktas, though they are extremely rare.
> Jivanmukta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> I do not care what you quote.


Than why are we pretending to have a discussion?



> In that Urdu translated line I explained you “ death” changes meaning, just as in Gurbani “ jivat marna” doesn’t mean literally death. Keep that mukti the way you want, Gurbani rejects that with new meaning.


You are ignoring the obvious.  Jivan mukti isn't an altered concept.  It means in Gurbani exactly what it means in Sanskrit.  The definitions are identical.



> When I read darshan relating to opening of dasm duar in Gurbani
> A sheer display of ignorance about poetic truth, There is no door, an illusions is eliminated, soul gets elevated, I forgot Bhain Ji, you have to go with all upnishdas, vedas’s meaning contrary to personal experience detailed in Gurbani.


If concept of "door" is mere poetic metaphor, then why does Gurbani teach concept of dasm duar and Naam japna?



> Disagreement is inevitable. So keep up your search, sorry it is not useful for those who want to just follow Guru.


So, you are following Guru, and I am not.  How arrogant can someone be?  You think these are spiritual attitudes?



> Keep digging and proving Guru ji borrowed every thing from your favorites, why should I care?


Guruji is avtaara.  So Guruji is same as Raam and Krishna and Kalki.  So if Krishna taught these concepts which again appear in Gurbani, is it really a "borrowing?"  It is only stated to contradict someone who says Vedas are worthless, to show that Guruji used Sanskrit terminology and Vedic teaching.  He did this because these are all His teachings, all One Truth, and all a single manifestation of the nirgun God.



> So it be Bhain Jo,( and I do not intent to waste my time on such gimmicks ) you the expert failed to come up with otherwise, in this post no mention of Hukm, Grace Of God and the last but not least, outright modification of Mukti as I advocated as per Gurbani. Just bringing quotes from INTERNET shops, can impress others how much you studied, it doesn’t change the truth. I am dead at Guru’s door, for me, he taught what he was enlightened with by the special grace of God; the so called Sikhs, if try to accuse him borrowing from Vashnava or Hinduism, they are literally immaterial to me. I believe every word he wrote down, you, the expert, keep digging, all is His Ordinance. Good luck.


Gurbani says Guruji is an avtaara.  Just like Raam.  Just like Krishna.  That is His special grace of God, because He is the very Jyot of God.  I believe every word He wrote down also.  I do not believe in poetic metaphors.



> If you are a good Sikh, kindly prove if ever I have advocated Punjabi Sikhs, criticized Vashnava or other good people doing good things. I strongly resent that. What right do you have to attack me like this from no where. Are we debating who is batter Sikhs or others? If no why these accusations.This is my last response to your comments. For a record, all Sikhs are not and cannot be better than all others as others cannot be better or bad. Good ones are in every faiths. Good spirited people forgive who are living under limitations as per AkaalPurakh's Hukam. I pray the Super Power you believe in, bless you with more humbleness and subtleness. I wish I didn't read your above comments. It is sad, it came from you.Thanks.


Do you believe this entire discussion revolves around you and your posts?  I am sharing problems in the Punjabi Sikh community, that if we are to analyze how Sikhism is a boat of mukti in the Kalyug, in what ways it is failing to be this, so that blind faith in this idea has to be based on authentic spirituality and no ethnocentrism within a culture.  Moreover Punjabiyat is actually distancing other people and rejecting converts, so this aspect of Sikhism from the cultural point of view is definitely NOT a boat of mukti.  If you want to resent this, go ahead.  But it is still the truth.  If you want to personalize this as something about you or any post you've written, go ahead.  I wrote it because it is my lived experience, and WHY I do not believe Punjabi Sikhs have any spiritual monopoly or are the only right path or have some boat of mukti.  It's not an attack on you.  I don't even know you.  I am pointing out serious weaknesses about the Sikh community I do know, and I haven't even said the most harmful or sad things or what caused me even to mention this.  But ignoring is not helping the Sikh community.  It needs to be openly discussed.  Should I stay silent and pretend not to notice things with a critical effect on spiritual teaching simply because YOU will decide I'm talking about you?  Are you a committee member at my Gurdwara?  Because I do recall distinctly this was being discussed and not "PK70."

As I said before, quite independant of anything YOU have written, it is my experience that spirituality has to be evaluated based on authenticity, and from this basis it can't just be something Sikhs have and Hindu's don't have.  There are lots of holy Hindu's, just as there are lots of unholy Sikhs.  So authentic spirituality must be independant of being fluent in Punjabi and Gurmukhi.  This is something you implied, and so I was explaining by my own example, why it cannot be the truth, since those fluent in Punjabi and Gurmukhi, and even being gyani's and bhai sahibs in Gurdwara are not even living in concordance with those teachings of Gurbani.  To look at what is right and wrong in general, without naming names, but by analysis must be a way to be honest about what is true spirituality, and stop tolerating or praising the fake things.  Spirituality has to be something open to the whole world and every person and every religion and every language.  And the fact that bhagat bani is included in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is proof that being born in Sikh religion is not the only way to be a saint, as many of these bhagats had never even met Guru Nanak to become "Sikhs."  So the teaching is there that low caste can become a sant.  Truly authentic spiritual persons (not necessarily Sikhs) can become a sant in eyes of Guruji.  Why this offends you I do not know.  But it is the truth.



> For a record, all Sikhs are not and cannot be better than all others as others cannot be better or bad. Good ones are in every faiths.


So what does this say about Sikhism being the only path to mukti in the Kaliyug?



> kindly prove if ever I have advocated Punjabi Sikhs, criticized Vashnava


I am not talking about you, but very deliberately gave enough details to mention a particularly powerful and well-respected person who happens to be ex-husband of one of my friends.  I also mentioned some very poor behavior on part of a particular Jatha, which I do not believe you are even a part of.  With details like these which are clearly not YOU, why do you insist on hurt sentiments?



> I pray the Super Power you believe in, bless you with more humbleness and subtleness.


Thank you ji.



> I wish I didn't read your above comments. It is sad, it came from you.Thanks.


I am sorry you feel hurt.  But I cannot in good conscience fail to speak out against injustices, or pretend not to notice when terribly wrong and hurtful things are being done in this community.  Why are we afraid to speak against the female abortions occuring in Sikh communities here in America?  Why are we afraid to speak out against the casteism in Sikh communities here in America, including the ostracism of a marriage of one of my firends sons to a Dalit girl?  What about the incredible degree of domestic violence against women in Sikh communities in America?  And people can pretend to be kirtanis and bhai sahibs doing these things?  What about the ostracism of American converts in Sikh Gurdwaras?  You know, these things are hurtful and sad.  But not talking about them in a discussion of what authentic spirituality really is, is not going to help.  If we can't be honest about the problems, we've got even bigger problems.  I am from America, and I'm not talking about problems world-wide.  I am speaking from direct experience.  We can't be this deceived to think ignoring these serious problems makes them go away, and then talk in any reality about Sikh religion being the only boat of mukti.  It's just not even believable, and that's why we're losing so many Sikh kids.  Something must transpire by way of example which is greater than pointing to Bhagat Puran Singh.  If Sikhism is really a boat of mukti, then somethying is missing, and that is my heartfelt opinion at this time.  And it is corroborated by Sau sakhi that says Sikhism will lose it's way, and Guruji will have to come back to establish Khalsa Raj and usher in Satyuga.  He will do this as Kalki avtaara.  He will unite ALL races and all castes and all religions as ONE.


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## pk70

Please reread it, " *This is my last response to your comments."
[/FONT]I do not churn water to get butter.[/FONT]**
[/FONT]*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Please reread it, " This is my last response to your comments."
> I do not churn water to get butter.


Okay.


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## Randip Singh

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Gandhi had a lot of Jain influences. Ahimsa is also very much misunderstood. Is Hindutva proponent of Ahimsa? Yet many of them are also Vaishnav. So we go back to fundamental interpretation.
> 
> When it comes to Gurbani, violence for it's own sake is not propagated. Sikhism absolutely is a Dharmic path. Gandhian non-violence as a political philosophy was a huge failure which led to the violence of partition. It was precisely his failure to act at a crucial juncture to consolidate the unity of India, and pacifistic policies of appeasement with Muslims which divided the country. Just because this man was Vaishnava doesn't mean this is sole interpretation of Vaishnava Vedanta.
> 
> To protect the Dharma is the highest good, is the message of Bhagavad-Gita. Bhagavan Krishna tells Arjuna how unmanly it is for him to sink down in the chariot with misguided intentions. Honor for the righteous warrior is righteous combat.
> 
> So again, it can be proved from significant sources that entire Sikh philosophy of defending the Dharma as the highest good comes from Vaishnav sources. Sikhism is not a teaching of violence for the sake of ego or as a means to an end. It is the last resort to defend the helpless. So Gandhi, who invented terms such as "satyagrahis" was imparting a false pacifism more akin to Buddhism and Jain religion than teachings of Bhagavad-Gita.
> 
> 
> Arjuna's pacifist plea:
> 
> Did the teaching of Bhagavad-Gita say Arjuna was correct? Was this Gandhian pacifism rewarded as spiritual teaching? Let's read more.
> 
> Krishna's rebuke:
> 
> 
> Which is the more logical approach, to say Sant Jarnail Singh Bindranwale's beliefs and actions were the example of every Sikh Jatha and sect, or the teachings directly from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Likewise, how can M.K. Gandhi be anything more than an example of a particular interpretation, which even within Vaishnavism are differences, most notably the direct teachings from Bhagavad-Gita? To be honest, this again, sounds like the oversimplified distorted comparisons arising from Singh Sabha reform to exaggerate differences in a desperate attempt to disprove and deny commonalities. But with historical integrity, such oversimplifications hold no credibility.
> 
> Just as no one can say Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale represents all Sikh teaching, how can anyone say M.K. Gandhi does also? Vaishnavism has a sannyasi heritage, and what is not popularly known is the warrior monk heritage during the time of the moghuls and who also resisted the British. It was in fact the Shaivaite and Vaishnava monks who became fearsome warriors who admitted the low caste and even women into their ranks. Does this sound familiar to Sikhism? As I said before, the historical parallels are unmistakable... unless one refuses to acknowledge them.
> 
> 
> 
> See also Warrior Ascetics And Indian Empires
> 
> Shaivite and Vaishnava ascetic acharas were considered monastic armies. Some of the fiercest were the Shaivite naga babas. How can this forgotten history jibe with the colonialist pacifism of Gandhian ahimsa? It doesn't even accord with the teachings of the Bhagavad-Gita. The main factor in this religious focus of this militarism was "protection of the Dharma" and so they considered themselves "holy Armies." Or, "Armies of God." Does the formation of the Khalsa seem out of place within this historical background?
> 
> 
> It isn't incompatible. Ancient Vaishnava and Shaivite scriptures are the source for warrior self-defense and defense of the helpless as positive Dharmic duty. It's only deliberate distortions of history which permit such beliefs about incompatibility. People should be shocked that so much they have learned historically was deliberately distorted. It should be a matter of genuine curiosity why Gandhian ahimsa is portrayed as a Vaishnav teaching, and not Bhagavan Krishna urging Arjuna to fight like a soldier indifferent to the outcome, but to fight, win or lose, because it is righteous and noble to fight for a just cause.
> 
> There is a reason the avtaars are K'shatriya. It is the duty of the avtaars to destroy evil, and set the dharma on balance again. That is the essence of Vaishnavism, not ahimsa.
> 
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> 
> 
> Narasingh avtaar, the Lion-man who roars and causes others to roar. Shown here destroying the demon king Hiranyakasipu. Not exactly ahimsa.
> 
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> 
> Narasingh destroys the demons. Notice the chakr in his hands?
> 
> 
> Why do you think Kalki avtaara is called, "Kalki the destroyer?" It is not because he is powerless or non-violent. Rather he will use destructive ends to achieve his means. He has to destroy the corrupted K'shatriya who contaminate and subjugate the world to right the Dharmic balance. This is the meaning of the demons who take human form in kaliyug in Gurbani. The teachings of Kalki the destroyer tell that in Kaliyug demons are born as evil warriors.
> 
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> B2 Spirit Bomber, American Air Force. If you want to understand about evil warrior Armies that contaminate the world, read about the vimanas of the asuras.
> 
> 
> 
> ਕਲੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿੰਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ॥ ​kalee andhar naanakaa jinnaan dhaa aouthaar ||
> In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, the demons have taken birth.
> ~SGGS Ji p. 556​
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_QFXGxw6Tk
> 
> 
> "Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas." ~Mahabharata​
> ~Bhul chak maaf


 
I knew you would pick on the fact I quoted Gandhi, but the reason I did so is because he embodied what the ideal of Vasnavite philosophy was/is for the majority of Hindu's.

Also is not Shivite philosophy disticntly different from Vashnvite? You seem to be putting the two together. I find that confusing. What you have posted is surely revisionist Vashnavite thinking?

In anycase , I remained unconvinced that Sikhism is anymore following Vashnavite philosophy, then it is following Islam, Sufism, Christianity or any other religion.


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## Canuck Singh

Wow such a long and technically discussed thread. There aught to be a summary of some sort! Will take time to read


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> I knew you would pick on the fact I quoted Gandhi, but the reason I did so is because he embodied what the ideal of Vasnavite philosophy was/is for the majority of Hindu's.


How am I picking on Gandhi?  I do point out that using him as an example is not the same as quoting religious texts.  If you want to understand an ancient religion, and the reformist trends within that tradition, you read the scriptures and the comments of reformers.  If someone insists on using Gandhi as THE example, one must in fairness factor in the politicized manipulation he used as a politician, who at one time even said, "I am a Hindu, I am a Buddhist, I am a Jain, I am a Christian."  Moreover, his entire philosophy of non-cooperation and nonviolence used a spiritual justification in the concepts of satyagraha and ahimsa.  But to be honest, Gandhi's non-violence is only a portion of ahimsa from the Vedic scriptures, which is the dharmic philosophy to show reverence for the all-pervading presence of God in all life.  As I illustrated, in Bhagavad-Gita is a clear explanation that dharmic living, not to harm is a high ideal, but preservation of the dharma and righteous battle are the noblest path.  That is it's message.  If you want more than a superficial overview, you must also analyze WHY MK Gandhi intelligently elected political resistence using a philosophy of nonviolence.

It wasn't because he was some sort of coward.  He was an extremely brave man, and majority of Sikhs also were persuaded that a successful fight against the overpowering British, was an appeal to the world conscience.  There were already massacres committed by the British.  A resistence whose fight was based on dying in massacres would be short-lived.  So, as a trained lawyer and intellectual, Gandhi did play a shrewd game of chess.  He became a thorn in the side of the British by publicizing the injustices.  When the British responded with force, the satyagrahis took the beatings.  And those beatings shamed the British in the eyes of public opinion and got the whole of the British public favoring Indian independance.  And that is exactly what Gandhi wanted.

I believe it was his failure to trust too much in his own philosophy.  While it was successful in uniting India and shaming the British and winning the British sympathy, it was an utter failure with the Muslims regarding partition and formation of Pakistan.

So, if the whole world modernly perceives Vaishnavism to be pacifistic monasticism, and in some ways Gandhi-like, there is truth to that perception.  However, one has to analyze how Vaishnavism changed historically.  As I demonstrated with credible references, the early Vaishnav and shaivite acharas were Armies!  And they even fought against each other.  The British had a stated policy of not tolerating armed sadhus, and essentially killing and arresting them.  So the British raj actually promoted the modern variant of peaceful monks which were not a historic match with the original teachings, original emphasis, and perhaps that was a reaction created to respond to Moghul and subsequently British oppression.  

But to insist on the point, that Sikhism has nothing in common with Vaishnavism because it has nothing in common with Gandhi, is such an oversimplification as to not be persuasive.  How many modern Sikhs are much different in lifestyle from Gandhi himself?  Yet, we would all conclude the original Nihang Khalsa were a much different type of individual, armed to the teeth, expert militarists, and not prone to tolerate any abuse from anyone.  And we have historical evidence in the form of Dasm Granth bani that Guru Gobind Singh Ji used examples of militarism and combat from Vaishnava Upanishads and traditional stories to bolser His martial ideal.  So please don't rely on the modernistic evolution of certain schools of philosophy to prove or disprove historical relationships.  MK Gandhi was a lawyer and politician.  He bears no realistic resemblance to Vaishnavite and Shaivite Nath Acharas when they were formidable armies, and hence in a position to credibly influence the formation of Sikh religion, which is the context in which I evaluate the ancient scriptures and historical movements.





> Also is not Shivite philosophy disticntly different from Vashnvite? You seem to be putting the two together. I find that confusing. What you have posted is surely revisionist Vashnavite thinking?


There are differences, similarities and overlapping since they tended to be part of a reform movement reacting to both institutionalized prejudices of Brahmin elites and Moghul oppression.  How can it be "distinctly different" when they are from the same location, relying on the same scriptural tradition and same language?  This is not apples and oranges, this is 2 different types of apples.  The yoga element (By this I do not mean postures, but techniques of Naam jap, awakening kundalini energy to unite Shiva and Shakti, opening dasam duar, teachings of the subtle nadis, Ire, pingala and shushmana, etc) is distinctly Shaivite.  Yet this Nath tradition overlaps both Vaishnavism and Sikhism.  Because different philosophical elements appear together in different traditions is why I mention them together.

Shiva is considered the Master Yogi and Shri Chand and Udasi Panth are considered a branch of Shaivite Nath, so it is undeniable at least certain elements close to Sikhism from the very earliest history bear some Nath influences.  Also, geographically Shaivite and Vaishnav sampradyas both fought against each other, and also alongside each other.  The influences are undeniable.  Both sampradyas are Vedantic and have similarities of teaching.  The essential difference between them is Vaishnavs believe only Maha-Vishnu (not Vishnu the demi-god, but Supreme Vishnu as the all-pervading) and the lineage of Vishnu avtaaras are the sargun manifestation of the nirguna.  As a consequence they subordinate Shiva as a mere demi-god who does not understand the limits of the nirguna, so Shiva is below an avtaar.  The Shaivites believe that Shiva is the ultimate sargun manifestation of the nirguna and that he killed or wounded Vishnu.  So that is the root of their conflicts.  But their teachings tend to overlap.  Vaishnavs believe bhakti and Naam jap is the ultimate path to mukti.  Shaivites believe yoga asanas are the ultimate path.
Shaivites are the older tradition, with Vaishnavism popping up as a reform movement of untouchable caste from within it.

Rapt in the Name: Ramnamis, Ramnam and the Untouchable religion



> Many scholars claim Kashmiri Shaivism to be purely spiritual but padatis show a relationship between tradition and sources of funding, such as stipulated payments for a certain number of initiations on specific dates of the year. Tax exempted land grants and other gifts for priests were prescribed. In return, the king and his consort were consecrated with abhisheka after Shiva mandala deeksha. Throne, banners and even weapons were included as objects of worship. The king was conferred the duty *of upholding Shaivite faith over the Brahmanical*, as well as continuing the role of master of varnashrama.
> 
> *A single priest would often be deeksha-guru* to more than one king at a time. Records show gifts to the guru sometimes included {censored}nal and there is a case when a king died in battle, the rajguru rode in and attacked the enemy with his skilful archery.
> 
> Shaivic priests also took over the role of the rajpurohit, performing daily rituals before eating, bathing, exercising, blessing weapons and persons before battle. A parallel south Indian text, Yamala, actually states that the* Shaivite sarvadhikari can consecrate and establish all subordinate deities, temples and persons which included all other religions, Vaishnav, Buddhist, Jain, as these were designated inferior.*
> 
> *The texts of the Vaishnav tradition heavily and often clumsily borrowed from the Shaivite texts as they used ‘the software of Shiva.’* Also, Brahmanic and Shaivite traditions both subsumed each other’s particulars and boundaries between them dissolved in the puranas, particularly the Agnipurana.
> India International Centre : Discussion Forums






> In anycase , I remained unconvinced that Sikhism is anymore following Vashnavite philosophy, then it is following Islam, Sufism, Christianity or any other religion.


I can only share information.  I have no power to convince.  If anyone considers the historical and scriptural sources in an unbiased way and still denies parallels between Vaishnavism and Shaivite Nath tradition which are both Vedantic teachings, and Sikhism, and prefers to see an equal parallel with teachings of Christianity or Islam, I can only shake my head.  As I said, I cannot convince, but the fact is Christianity is influenced by Egyptian religion and Zoroastrianism, and in this respect somewhat close to Jain religion.  But the likelihood is Vaishnavism also influenced Christianity through Mithraism.  It's a known fact that Manichean Gnostic Christianity influenced Tibetan and Pure Land Buddhism.

Where does Gurbani have a concept of Jesus dying on the cross to redeem the original sin of mankind?  Without this salvific grace, there is no Christian religion, and hence no credible Christian influence.  Dying to historically right wrongs is not the same thing as deity puja, where the sacred blood has the power to redeem sins.  This puja of the God-man is the essence of Christian religion.  Jesus isn't considered "God" in the same way as people believe Guruji is God by having Jyot of the God, or God-consciousness.  Jesus in his physical body is considered divine, so his blood has the power to save.  There is no merging.  There is no all-pervading.  There is no reincarnation or cycle of births and deaths.  There are no yugs.  In Zoroastrian fashion, the evil demi-god Satan is a literal counterpart of the good God, YHWH, whose name to Jews is unpronounceable, but in corrupted Christian tradition is called, Yahweh, or Jehovah.  Resisting tyranny and oppression through armed conflict is rejected, as Christians teach to render to the governing authority what is their due, even if you are a slave, you are expected to be a "good" slave per the Pauline epistles.


"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men."  ~Christian Bible, 1 Peter 2:13​

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."  ~Christian Bible, I Peter 2:18​

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby."  ~Old Testament Bible, Deuteronomy 20:10-17​

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.  How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" ~Hebrews 9:13-14​

Sufism is simply Hinduized Islam.  So I don't even count it as a separate tradition.  The majority of Sufi saints either had direct relationship with or considered themselves to be Vaishnava.




> Tracing the evolution of the Naqshabandiyya Mujaddidiyya in India in the years after the death of Shaikh Ahmad, this *book shows how at least some leading masters of this order veered round to a more accommodative attitude towards the Hindus. A major shift can be observed in this regard with the eighteenth century Mirza Mazhar Jan-i Janan of Delhi, who, while a strict upholder of the shari ‘ah, adopted a somewhat less strict posture vis-a-vis the Hindus than Shaikh Ahmad. As Dahnhardt shows, he went so far as to accept the Hindu deities, Rama and Krishna, as prophets of God.
> 
> Dahnhardt writes that in the decades after Mirza Mazhar Jan-i Janan’s death, at least some Sufi masters in his spiritual line established close relations with ‘Hindu’ mystics, particularly those associated with the ‘Nanakpanth’ and the ‘Kabirpanth’, traditions associated with the sant tradition of Indian mysticism. These orders preached a universal message transcending narrowly-inscribed religious boundaries, and had traditionally attracted both Hindus as well as Muslims, mostly from the ‘lower’ castes.  They were fiercely opposed to what they saw as the soulless ritualism of the Brahmin priests and the ‘orthodox’ Muslim ‘ulama.
> On Hindu Sufism




~Bhul chak maaf


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## Randip Singh

> But to insist on the point, that Sikhism has nothing in common with Vaishnavism because it has nothing in common with Gandhi, is such an oversimplification as to not be persuasive.


 
I am not saying that at all.

Kabir a stauch Vashnavite (although Muslim by faith/birth) has his sayings included in Bani, however, not all his sayings are. Sheikh Farid has some of his writings included in Bani, but not all. 

page 518
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
पउड़ी ॥ 
Pa&shy;oṛī. 
Pauree: 

ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸਣੁ ਖੜੇ ॥ 
*तुधु धिआइन्हि बेद कतेबा सणु खड़े ॥ 
Ŧuḏẖ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;īniĥ bėḏ kaṯėbā saṇ kẖaṛė. 
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You. 
*
ਗਣਤੀ ਗਣੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਰਿ ਪੜੇ ॥ 
गणती गणी न जाइ तेरै दरि पड़े ॥ 
Gaṇṯī gaṇī na jā&shy;ė ṯėrai ḏar paṛė. 
Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door. 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਾ ॥ 
ब्रहमे तुधु धिआइन्हि इंद्र इंद्रासणा ॥ 
Barahmė ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;īniĥ inḏar inḏrāsaṇā. 
Brahma meditates on You, as does Indra on his throne. 

ਸੰਕਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣਾ ॥ 
संकर बिसन अवतार हरि जसु मुखि भणा ॥ 
Sankar bisan avṯār har jas mukẖ bẖaṇā. 
Shiva and Vishnu, and their incarnations, chant the Lord's Praise with their mouths, 

ਪੀਰ ਪਿਕਾਬਰ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਅਉਲੀਏ ॥ 
पीर पिकाबर सेख मसाइक अउलीए ॥ 
Pīr pikābar sėkẖ masā&shy;ik a&shy;ulī&shy;ė. 
as do the Pirs, the spiritual teachers, the prophets and the Shaykhs, the silent sages and the seers. 

ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਮਉਲੀਏ ॥ 
ओति पोति निरंकार घटि घटि मउलीए ॥ 
Oṯ poṯ nirankār gẖat gẖat ma&shy;ulī&shy;ė. 
Through and through, the Formless Lord is woven into each and every heart. 

ਕੂੜਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ਧਰਮੇ ਤਗੀਐ ॥ 
कूड़हु करे विणासु धरमे तगीऐ ॥ 
Kūṛahu karė viṇās ḏẖarmė ṯagī&shy;ai. 
One is destroyed through falsehood; through righteousness, one prospers. 

ਜਿਤੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਗੀਐ ॥੨॥ 
जितु जितु लाइहि आपि तितु तितु लगीऐ ॥२॥ 
Jiṯ jiṯ lā&shy;ihi āp ṯiṯ ṯiṯ lagī&shy;ai. ||2|| 
Whatever the Lord links him to, to that he is linked. ||2|| 

Sikhi tries to be inclusive i.e. it will look for similarities in the messages of other faiths that is cohrent with Sikhi. It does not mean Sikhi follows a certain path i.e. Vaishnav, Shivite, Islam, Christian.

Page 747

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
सूही महला ५ ॥ 
Sūhī mehlā 5. 
Soohee, Fifth Mehl: 

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥ 
करम धरम पाखंड जो दीसहि तिन जमु जागाती लूटै ॥ 
Karam ḏẖaram pakẖand jo ḏīseh ṯin jam jāgāṯī lūtai. 
The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector. 

ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਜਿਤੁ ਛੂਟੈ ॥੧॥ 
निरबाण कीरतनु गावहु करते का निमख सिमरत जितु छूटै ॥१॥ 
Nirbāṇ kīrṯan gāvhu karṯė kā nimakẖ simraṯ jiṯ cẖẖūtai. ||1|| 
In the state of Nirvaanaa, sing the Kirtan of the Creator's Praises; contemplating Him in meditation, even for an instant, one is saved. ||1|| 

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਰੀਐ ॥ 
संतहु सागरु पारि उतरीऐ ॥ 
Sanṯahu sāgar pār uṯrī&shy;ai. 
O Saints, cross over the world-ocean. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
जे को बचनु कमावै संतन का सो गुर परसादी तरीऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jė ko bacẖan kamāvai sanṯan kā so gur parsādī ṯarī&shy;ai. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. 
One who practices the Teachings of the Saints, by Guru's Grace, is carried across. ||1||Pause|| 

ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਜਨ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਭਰੀਜੈ ॥ 
कोटि तीरथ मजन इसनाना इसु कलि महि मैलु भरीजै ॥ 
Kot ṯirath majan isnānā is kal meh mail bẖarījai. 
Millions of cleansing baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage only fill the mortal with filth in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੨॥ 
साधसंगि जो हरि गुण गावै सो निरमलु करि लीजै ॥२॥ 
Sāḏẖsang jo har guṇ gāvai so nirmal kar lījai. ||2|| 
One who sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, becomes spotlessly pure. ||2|| 

*ਬੇਦ **ਕਤੇਬ **ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ **ਸਭਿ **ਸਾਸਤ **ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ **ਪੜਿਆ **ਮੁਕਤਿ **ਨ **ਹੋਈ **॥** 
बेद कतेब सिम्रिति सभि सासत इन्ह पड़िआ मुकति न होई ॥ 
Bėḏ kaṯėb simriṯ sabẖ sāsaṯ inĥ paṛi&shy;ā mukaṯ na ho&shy;ī. 
One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.* 

ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ 
एकु अखरु जो गुरमुखि जापै तिस की निरमल सोई ॥३॥ 
Ėk akẖar jo gurmukẖ jāpai ṯis kī nirmal so&shy;ī. ||3|| 
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. ||3|| 

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ 
खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥ 
Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏės cẖahu varnā ka&shy;o sājẖā. 
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

Sikhism has far too many similarities with many faiths to proclaim it is following generally the path on anyone. You may find the Judeo-Christian-Islamic path unpalatable, but Nanak sat and ate and discussed religion with these people. He visited their shrines, and delivered to them a message of unity and brotheredhood that is revered by them to this day.

One could go into the fine detail of Sikhi and other faiths and say that it follows such and such path, and I have had many discussions with Muslims and Hindu's alike who claim Sikhi follows their path.

We seem to be having the same debate as occured 500 years ago, as to whether we should bury Guru Nanak or Creamate him.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Sikhi tries to be inclusive i.e. it will look for similarities in the messages of other faiths that is cohrent with Sikhi. It does not mean Sikhi follows a certain path i.e. Vaishnav, Shivite, Islam, Christian.


Sikhism is inclusive within the context of a Vedic tradition.



> One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.


The Vedas, Upanishads and Vaishnava Puranas also teach this.  Liberation doesn't come from being a pandit.  It comes from Bhakti and Naam jap, and having a Satguru.




> Sikhism has far too many similarities with many faiths to proclaim it is following generally the path on anyone. You may find the Judeo-Christian-Islamic path unpalatable, but Nanak sat and ate and discussed religion with these people. He visited their shrines, and delivered to them a message of unity and brotheredhood that is revered by them to this day.
> 
> One could go into the fine detail of Sikhi and other faiths and say that it follows such and such path, and I have had many discussions with Muslims and Hindu's alike who claim Sikhi follows their path.


I have shown numerous examples of the teachings in Gurbani, even the words nirgun, sargun, Parabrahm, Vasudeyv, All-Pervading Oneness, mukti, samadhi, Fourth state, yugs, das avtaara, narak-surag, etc all come from Vedic sources.  Can you please show me the distinctly Christian and Islamic teachings which Gurbani equally teaches as universal Sat?

Please don't just say they are there because philosophically it would be "nice" to be inclusive.  Show me how Abrahamic monotheism can be reconciled with All-pervading pantheistic Oneness.  Show me any place where the actual teachings which could be distinguished as Christian or Islamic appear anywhere in Gurbani, and not just popularity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji as a sant and holy person is claimed as some form of Christian and Muslim.  Because I can show you 100 examples of Gurbani teaching which is nearly word for word exact teaching of Vaishnavism.  It is the sanatan philosophy to be inclusive.  Funny how you keep trying to prove the most exclusive and rejecting traditions, Christianity and Islam are somehow an influence on Gurbani.  The proof is Sufism is so Hinduized as to be compatible.  But direct Islam... well, explain why they are persecuting Sufis?  And the reason is, Sufism, they believe has contaminated the pure One Truth of Islam as heretics.

Guruji acknowledged all religions have the same One God.  But that sameness is defined in terms of Vedanta, All-pervading nirguna and sarguna.  So within an inclusive and tolerant Vedantic framework, Gurbani defines the Reality about God and how to seek Him.  And nothing whatsoever in that teaching is belief in confession of sins to Jesus the God as necessary for salvation and to renounce any belief in any other teacher such as Guru.  There is nothing in Gurbani where a revert has to publically proclaim faith in Mohammed and renounce all other religions as false.  And compare this with Sufi bhagats who chanted Raam Naam and Hare Krishana.  There is simply no comparison to be made.  Denials of Vaishnav origin of Sikhism are without persuasion.  Judaism, Christianity and Islam have this teaching in common:  God is One, and he is a jealous god who tolerates no demonic counterfeit.  All other gods and religious traditions are considered inferior, evil, primitive and must be renounced before one is accepted as a Christian or a Muslim.  Jews are a little more tolerant of non-Jews, but believe they will get a chance to become righteous gentiles who must believe the same things.  Christians and Muslims send people to hell, not just for evil deeds, but also for evil beliefs in false religions.  Just ask any Christian or Muslim their honest opinion of Sikh religion.  If they are not being deceptive to win your confidence like missionaries, they will admit, the religion of Sikhism is false and Sikhs are going to hell.  Both faiths historically have condoned torture and murder of unbelievers to compel conversions.  If anything, Christianity and Islam are the religious teachings in common with Moghul oppression.


This is why I keep refering to Vaishnavism, because the philosophical foundation of Gurbani as a spiritual teaching is derived almost word for word from Vaishnava Upanishads, and not really have such on point compatibility with any other sect.  Just explain the vaars below to me OUTSIDE a context of Vaishnavism, and in a way which would be acceptable to Christians and Muslims, please.




Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter

    ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
    jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
    At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

    ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
    charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
    The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

    ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
    badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
    A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

    ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
    darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
    As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged
    forgiveness.

    ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
    gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
    Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
    kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
    Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the
    wrongdoer.

    ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
    bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
    The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the
    Lord only.

    ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
    paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
    He has liberated many fallen sinners.
    ~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji



Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
    ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
    kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
    The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.

    ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
    leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
    He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).

    ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
    mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
    Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further
    made them wonder struck.

    ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
    indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
    Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

    ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
    mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
    When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.

    ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
    mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
    Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service

    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
    saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
    he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of
    the Guru.
    ~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




So vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji refer to Bhagavan Krishna as Sarguna.  How would Christians and Muslims ever tolerate that as true teaching?  They wouldn't.  And what does that say about people who try to interpret Gurbani along Christian and Islamic exclusivism and monotheism?  It doesn't work.  It doesn't match with all the pieces of the puzzle.  The correct interpretation is the one that will match up with all the sources.

What matches up?  Seriously, it is Vaishnavism.  But I will add there is enough of a Shaivite component, particularly with Nihang Jatha as to cause me to have to accept 2 paths, meat eating and vegetarianism.  However, one point in Gurbani is abundantly clear.  God is called cow-protector (Gopala), and halal meat is forbidden.  This means all Jewish and Islamic meat is forbidden.  Why is this?  This does imply beef is forbidden, and it is history as you know (I linked from your website a few things) that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a firm supporter of cow protection laws.  Early support of Singhs during agitation of Indian independance also were firm supporters of cow protection legislation.

Do you deny it?


----------



## Randip Singh

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Sikhism is inclusive within the context of a Vedic tradition.


 

In the Hindu Vedic tradition, another faith religion is actually part of the Hindu / Vedic tradition, Sikhism is different, it does not say that X Y religion is part of Sikhi, it says that religion is that religion, but we have common areas. One tries to absorb the faith, one recognises the distinctiveness of that faith and finds common areas.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> The Vedas, Upanishads and Vaishnava Puranas also teach this. Liberation doesn't come from being a pandit. It comes from Bhakti and Naam jap, and having a Satguru.


 
Maybe a common area with Sikhi.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I have shown numerous examples of the teachings in Gurbani, even the words nirgun, sargun, Parabrahm, Vasudeyv, All-Pervading Oneness, mukti, samadhi, Fourth state, yugs, das avtaara, narak-surag, etc all come from Vedic sources. Can you please show me the distinctly Christian and Islamic teachings which Gurbani equally teaches as universal Sat?.


 
The Bible wasn't written by Jesus and neither the Koran by Mohammed. Is the message of the Bible and Koran the actually message of these men. Also see how many times the Koran and Bible are mentioned in Bani:

Sri Granth: Search Results

Sri Granth: Search Results

Also Allah:

Sri Granth: Search Results

I could do many searches in other terms too but I think you get my point.




Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Please don't just say they are there because philosophically it would be "nice" to be inclusive.


 
I am not saying that. Bani is critical of all faiths.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Show me how Abrahamic monotheism can be reconciled with All-pervading pantheistic Oneness. Show me any place where the actual teachings which could be distinguished as Christian or Islamic appear anywhere in Gurbani, and not just popularity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji as a sant and holy person is claimed as some form of Christian and Muslim. Because I can show you 100 examples of Gurbani teaching which is nearly word for word exact teaching of Vaishnavism. It is the sanatan philosophy to be inclusive. Funny how you keep trying to prove the most exclusive and rejecting traditions, Christianity and Islam are somehow an influence on Gurbani. The proof is Sufism is so Hinduized as to be compatible. But direct Islam... well, explain why they are persecuting Sufis? And the reason is, Sufism, they believe has contaminated the pure One Truth of Islam as heretics.


 
That word for word is your interpretation and your view, not mine. I try and view Sikhi from all aspects, and not just one point of view.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Guruji acknowledged all religions have the same One God. But that sameness is defined in terms of Vedanta, All-pervading nirguna and sarguna. So within an inclusive and tolerant Vedantic framework, Gurbani defines the Reality about God and how to seek Him. And nothing whatsoever in that teaching is belief in confession of sins to Jesus the God as necessary for salvation and to renounce any belief in any other teacher such as Guru. There is nothing in Gurbani where a revert has to publically proclaim faith in Mohammed and renounce all other religions as false. And compare this with Sufi bhagats who chanted Raam Naam and Hare Krishana. There is simply no comparison to be made. Denials of Vaishnav origin of Sikhism are without persuasion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have this teaching in common: God is One, and he is a jealous god who tolerates no demonic counterfeit. All other gods and religious traditions are considered inferior, evil, primitive and must be renounced before one is accepted as a Christian or a Muslim. Jews are a little more tolerant of non-Jews, but believe they will get a chance to become righteous gentiles who must believe the same things. Christians and Muslims send people to hell, not just for evil deeds, but also for evil beliefs in false religions. Just ask any Christian or Muslim their honest opinion of Sikh religion. If they are not being deceptive to win your confidence like missionaries, they will admit, the religion of Sikhism is false and Sikhs are going to hell. Both faiths historically have condoned torture and murder of unbelievers to compel conversions. If anything, Christianity and Islam are the religious teachings in common with Moghul oppression.


 
Sikhs are majority from Hindu's, and in order to explain to them concepts within Sikhi, one has to use termiinoligy with which these pseudo-Sikhs were familiar with, hence the use of Vedic/Hindu philosophy. It does not mean Sikhi follows Vaishnavism however.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> This is why I keep refering to Vaishnavism, because the philosophical foundation of Gurbani as a spiritual teaching is derived almost word for word from Vaishnava Upanishads, and not really have such on point compatibility with any other sect. Just explain the vaars below to me OUTSIDE a context of Vaishnavism, and in a way which would be acceptable to Christians and Muslims, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter
> 
> ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
> jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
> At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.
> 
> ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
> charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
> The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.
> 
> ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
> badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
> A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.
> 
> ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
> darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
> As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged
> forgiveness.
> 
> ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
> gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
> Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.
> 
> ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
> kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
> Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the
> wrongdoer.
> 
> ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
> bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
> The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the
> Lord only.
> 
> ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
> paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
> He has liberated many fallen sinners.
> ~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
> 
> 
> 
> Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
> ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
> kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
> The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.
> 
> ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
> leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
> He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).
> 
> ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
> mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
> Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further
> made them wonder struck.
> 
> ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
> indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
> Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.
> 
> ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
> mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
> When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.
> 
> ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
> mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
> Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service
> 
> ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
> saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
> he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of
> the Guru.
> ~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji refer to Bhagavan Krishna as Sarguna. How would Christians and Muslims ever tolerate that as true teaching? They wouldn't. And what does that say about people who try to interpret Gurbani along Christian and Islamic exclusivism and monotheism? It doesn't work. It doesn't match with all the pieces of the puzzle. The correct interpretation is the one that will match up with all the sources.


 
Many Islamists like Kabir ji would have no problem with these phrases, and like I havestated above, Hindu analogies have been used to describe Sikh concepts.



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> What matches up? Seriously, it is Vaishnavism. But I will add there is enough of a Shaivite component, particularly with Nihang Jatha as to cause me to have to accept 2 paths, meat eating and vegetarianism. However, one point in Gurbani is abundantly clear. God is called cow-protector (Gopala), and halal meat is forbidden. This means all Jewish and Islamic meat is forbidden. Why is this? This does imply beef is forbidden, and it is history as you know (I linked from your website a few things) that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a firm supporter of cow protection laws. Early support of Singhs during agitation of Indian independance also were firm supporters of cow protection legislation.
> 
> Do you deny it?


 
On the last point (without turning this into a meat debate), all ritually slaughtered meat seems to forbidden including rites in Hinduism such as Anustrani and Bali. Here's an example:



_ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad._


_jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee._
_pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee._
_mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee._
_kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee._ rahaa-o. 
_maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee._
_aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee._
_sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree._
_raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree._
_dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa._ 
_kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa._​



_One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:_
_He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died._
_Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?_ 
_If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!_ 
_Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?_Pause 
_Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them._ 
_Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want._
_You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain._ 
_You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean._
_You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God._ 
_Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways._​


*Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji*​



So its not just Halal and Kosher. Strictly speaking beef is not forbidden (but it is not eaten out of respect for Hindu's), as the cow is revered by Hindu's.

Cow slaughter was a political tool used by the Islamic Authorities to subjugate the Hindu majority. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's move was a political move to appease Hindu's.

As for other points, you should delve more into the detail of what is not compatible in Hinduism with Sikhism as you have with Islam and Christianity. 

Some interesting points have been made, and one thing I have picked up is the ebb and flow of Sikhi, of how Sikhi throughout History has had tendency to fall into the dominant Indian culture i.e. Hinduism , and how the numbers of people who describe themselves as Sikh has varied.

We are going through a period where people are identifying more with Hinduism and Sikhi, rather than seeing Sikhi in its own right.


----------



## jagmeet

I have read some of the posts here and am surprised by the knowledge of and research put in by the members.But frankly, I don't see how it's important that Sikhism resembles A or B school of Hinduism or some other religion.Besides, I don't know if there are such well defined schools or demarcations in Hinduism.We see the same people going to Vishnu temples as well Shiva temples as well as calling Brahmins to their homes--where is the distinction between Vaishnavite, Shaivite or Brahminic traditions?I hope Harjas Kaur ji and others can explain.

Besides, even if there is similarity between one religion and the other--so what?After all, truth is one--so there are bound to be similarities.

I would also like to add that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj has clearly stated:

'Paen gahe jab te tumre 
Tab te kou aankh tare nahin aanyo
Ram Rahim Puran Kuran 
Anek kahein mat ek na maanyo
Simrit sastra bed sabhe
Bahu bhed kahein hum ek na jaanyo
Sri Aspaan kripa tumri kar
Mein na kahiyo sabh tohe bakhanyo'


----------



## Canuck Singh

I find it amazing how such things are discussed in an encapsulated form on forum's while in the real world, people are continually driven by the basic low level intention's of human life, that is work towards money or progress depending on the wealth of the nation, attempt to live life but yet involve oneself in escapism throughout, and to live out life's youth until a meandering end... Wondering what place each conversation on all the forum's on all the web places has towards the development of the human consciousness...
Wondering also, what is it that particular moment when a person has a shift in belief or perception. When we choose to change the way we look at things, the things we look at change?


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> But frankly, I don't see how it's important that Sikhism resembles A or B school of Hinduism or some other religion.


Discussions about Hinduism usually focus on the presumed failures and worst excesses so that it's not even portrayed realistically.  And the reason for that is the modern Sikh interpretation of Gurbani which is the belief held by the Singh Sabha reform, that Hinduism is bad, Hinduism is a threat to Sikh nationhood and sovereignty, and that Guruji renounced or rejected fundamental elements of Hindu religion to make Sikhism distinct.  So the majority of Sikh discussions about Hinduism are very negative and very inaccurate portrayals.  That negativity about Hindu religion and teaching is the Sikh assumption.

So if we have a discussion about "yoga" in Gurbani, a mixed reaction will occur, because Sikhs often have a low opinion about any practices related to Hindu religion.  So in absence of any analysis, something like yoga is automatically termed "useless ritualism."  Because Sikh religion is believed to reject the kind of useless ritualism that Hindu religion teaches, Sikhism is argued to be a "superior" or "more modern" spiritual path.  The reason for an analysis of Vedantic religion is it's own teachings contradict the prevailing assumptions.  For example if Sikhs insist Hinduism is all about caste injustice, and Sikhism as a separate identity is based on rejecting caste, then if someone points out Vaishnavism started as a reform against caste injustices, we have to view Hinduism less negatively.  "Sikh religion defines itself by what is contrary to Hindu religious injustice or hypocrisy."  Sikh identity is going to fall by that definition if it can be proved the negative interpretations of Hindu religion are based on innacurate assumptions.  

I'm saying there's a big political lie hidden in all this.  And that lie is firstly, Hindu religion is all bad, negative, hypocritical, based on caste injustices and brahmin elitism; when it can also be shown Hinduism contains reform movements which address these errors.  And secondly the lie states Sikh identity as a separate religion is based on exaggerated distinctions of what Hinduism is not.  That is the purpose of showing school A and school B.  If school A is the worst, hypocitical social injustice, and school B is the reform trying to address injustices by restoring the original Vedic teachings, and nearly identical to Sikh teaching, what happens to the political lie propping up Sikh identity as a new religion?   I think that's why there's so much unconscious hostility to actually learning what Hinduism really teaches.  Sikhs are taught to unconsciously hate Hinduism as an inferior religion.  

Because certain elements within Hinduism do teach casteism as a form of social injustice, I can't say Hinduism is without caste injustice or that Gurbani is innacurate about Hinduism to say this.  So I have to distinguish between school A and school B.  But if Gurbani distinguishes between Hinduism as being brahmin elitism and hypocrisy, and vaishnavism which is equated with a Gurmukh, clearly something has been profoundly mistranslated.  And it begs the question, why are Sikh educational institutions doing precisely that?  Why is the Sikh identity predicated on the difference between hypocritical, ritualistic and negative practices of Hinduism when clearly Hinduism itself also had reform movements not unlike Sikhism to remedy those spiritual and social defects?  

And if we delve even deeper, we see the relationship between Sikhism and some of those reform movements, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Ramanandis, Kabirpanthis, Sufis, have quite a degree of overlap with small differences in teaching.   How did Sikhism come to be defined as a separate religion?  Does it have enough independance as a different philosophical teaching to be so distinct as to be categorized a separate religion?  On analysis, Buddhism which acknowledges it's sanatan and Hindu origin is far different within Dvaitic Vedantic philosophy as to be viewed as a separate religion, but Sikhism doesn't even have this spiritual and philosophical difference.  It doesn't teach anything radically new or separate, including both Dvaitic and Advaitic components as does Vaishnavism.  It is in fact a reform movement within Hinduism standing on the exact same terminology and definitions of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Vedanta school of Hindu philosophy. So if Sikhism was a Vaishnava reform movement, how did it get so completely dislocated outside of any parameter which would be considered Hindu?  And the reason is the intellectual dishonesty of Singh Sabha reformers who sought political power and independant rulership from the British by exaggerating differences between Sikh teaching and Hindu religion.  Singh Sabha reform is the reason why modern Sikhs have a negative view of Hindu religion as being defined by the worst excesses and hypocrisy.  Without this exaggeration between what Hinduism is, and Sikhism is not, the differences in the teachings begin to crumble.



ਕਟੀਐ ਤੇਰਾ ਅਹੰ ਰੋਗੁ ॥ 
katteeai thaeraa ahan rog ||
The disease of your ego shall be eradicated.

ਤੂੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੧॥ 
thoon gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1||
By Guru's Grace, practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 211  ​


So finding places where Gurbani actually seems to be teaching something which is contrary to the prevailing opinion is where this discussion began to examine Gurbani actual teachings in comparison with actual teachings (not presumed or simply cultural practices) of Hindu religion.

So for example, the SGPC Rehit Maryada states:



> CHAPTER X
> Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)
> Article XVI
> 
> 
> The Guru's tenets are:
> 
> a. Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.
> b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.
> c. Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.
> d. Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions, Shradh (ritual serving of food to priests for the salvation of ancestor on appointed days as per the lunar calendar), Ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of death of an ancestor)... fasting on new or full moon or other days, wearing of frontal marks on forehead, wearing of thread... idolatry and such like superstitious observances
> 
> (Most, though not all, rituals and ritual or religious observances listed in this clause are hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continues to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to new faith and a large bulk of the Sikhs novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus' secular and religious life which the Brahmin priests managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by the his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for  compromise...)
> 
> ...  Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any place other than the Guru's place- such, for instance, as sacred sports or places of pilgrimage of other faiths.  Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.
> 
> e. The Khalsa should maintain its distinctiveness among the professors of different religions of the world, but should not hurt the sentiments of any person professing another religion.
> Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India






> You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional  background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet.
> Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India



So when discussing tuuks of Gurbani which talk about devas, people immediately contradict to say "Guruji doesn't believe in devas.  Sikhs don't believe in devas.  All Hindu's worship all devas."  It is assumed, the devas mentioned in Gurbani must have been to placate former Hindus but that Guru didn't believe in devas at all.  Sikhs do not accept them, either as real, or as meaningful.  And these "assumptions" are what demarcate and define "Sikhism" from "Hinduism."


So it is my interest, not what are the prevailing assumptions, not what are the opinioins of Singh Sabha reform imposed on interpretation of Gurbani by Sikh institutions, like SGPC, but simply:

"What does Gurbani actually say, and why?"  Are mention of devas accidental historical footnote?  Is mention of Raja yoga another accident?  Is discussion of ida, pingala and shushmana and dasm duar some leftover ritualism?  What about how it pertains to mukti, how it pertains to Naam?  Should it matter to us then?  Why is Naam of the One God called after names of Hindu devas?  After names of Vishnu avtaaras?"

So you see, it becomes a study, because the average Sikh can't answer the questions about yoga, kundalini awakening, place or meaning of devas or names of devas in Gurbani by simply using the same blanket assumptions to cover inconvenient things.  Do you know how many Sikhs are uncomfortable with, even embarrased by the mention of Hindu devas in SGGS Ji and Dasam Granth bani?  So the prevailing view is inadequate to answer.




> Besides, I don't know if there are such well defined schools or demarcations in Hinduism.  We see the same people going to Vishnu temples as well Shiva temples as well as calling Brahmins to their homes--where is the distinction between Vaishnavite, Shaivite or Brahminic traditions?  I hope Harjas Kaur ji and others can explain.


If a Sikh explaining Gurbani tuuks that talk about Hindu devas says: "Hindu's worship devas and Sikhs worship Akal Purakh."  It at first glance seems a satisfactory answer.  But what if all Hindus don't worship all devas?  What if, some Hindus are actually monotheistic?  Would that turn this definition distinguishing "Sikhs" from "Hindus" on it's head?

You see that's the very crux of the issue.  Singh Sabha reformers made no distinction between different schools of Hindu philosophy, and instead lumped together the worst excesses in a propagandistic way claiming, these general definitions are what Hinduism is.  And it can be proved to be a lie.  And any lie serves a propagandistic purpose, so I began to investigate "why" such a lie, repeated over and over by Sikhs and written in such documents as SGPC Sikh Rehit Maryada would continue to claim:

-Hindu religion practices meaningless rituals
-Hindu religion believes in deva, devti and doesn't worship the One true God
-Hindu religion believes the Ajooni can be incarnated as an avtaar
-Hindu religion is indistinguishable from brahminism and caste injustices
-Hinduism, yoga, rituals are no path to mukti, only Sikhism has the boat


So what if the average Hindu believes, or mixes practices.  Is the average Hindu an example of Hindu teaching any more than the average Sikh is an example of Sikh teaching?  And the answer is, no!  Sikh teaching is independant of what the average Sikh believes or practices.  Do you realize how low we could drag Sikhism down by trying to prove Sikhism is based on what the average Sikh believs or practices rather than allow Sikh teaching to speak for itself?  Why would any Sikh insist that Sikhism be defined by Gurbani, direct words of Guru, but Hindu religion be defined by the personal beliefs and practices of individual Hindus and not honestly evaluate Hindu scriptures for the actual teachings?  And the reason is, Hinduism has been defined by Sikh institutions as precisely this, the worst and weakest to prove it's illegitimacy as a spirituality compared to Sikhism.  Now if we went to the average Gurdwara, and picked out the average committee member and let his own views and practices prove to the world what Sikhism really teaches, we would all be ashamed.  And it would have no honesty and be no evaluation of what Sikh religion actually believes.  So why insist on the most inaccurate definition of Hinduism?  

In like manner, why are Sikhs always trying to drag Hindu religion down to the lowest common denominator to make it indistinguishable from the worst excesses or blatant misunderstanding of it's own teachings?  This can't be accidental, it's too pervasive culturally.

And the answer is... because that is the way Singh Sabha reform and Sikh institutions have defined it.  It has become part of the self-definition Sikhs have about themselves, that compared to Hinduism's worst excesses, we believe...x,y,z things.  So the blatant misrepresentation of Hindu religion based on worst excesses and distortions of own teachings is almost necessary to prop up the myth of Sikh independance.  It goes right to the crux of what Singh Sabha was hiding, and that is, the historical truth that Sikh religion was never intended to be a new religion at all, but was a Vaishnava reform movement like Sufism and Kabirpanthis and Ramanandis which are all derivative.


That is why the incredible hostility Sikh institutions have traditionally had about giving an honest definition of what Hinduism really is.  They would begin to lose the safety of their distinctiveness.  It isn't organizations like Arya Samaj or RSS that threaten the Sikh identity.  The threat to independant Sikh identity is hidden in these false overgeneralizations about what Hindu religion is, and hence, what Sikh religion is not.


-Vaishnavism also breaks with meaningless rituals elevating brahminism
-Vaishnavism worships only the One nirgun God through the sargun avtaaras
-Vaishnavism believes the Ajooni can be incarnated as an avtaar to save the world
-Vaishnavism originated to reform brahminism and caste injustices, starting free kitchen langar-style halls within their temples and promoting seva to the poor.
-Vaishnavism believes bhakti, Naam jap, sankirtan and Gur-deekhya are the path to mukti




> Besides, even if there is similarity between one religion and the other--so what?After all, truth is one--so there are bound to be similarities.


There is a difference between similarities, such as saying: "God is love."  "God is truth"  "God is peace."  And every religion worth the name will say that.  The false claim that Sikhism is like Hinduism only because of superficial similarities is hollow, because Sikhism in it's core essential teachings IS Vaishnavism.  There is almost word for word parallel between what Gurbani teaches and what Vaishnava Upanishads teach.  Not in a few subjects, but in every subject that is.  And indeed the similarities are not even similar but exact definitions which have profound complexity.

So if we want to say, Sikhism is like Islam in the way Sikhism is like Vaishnavism, how close would we be?

Islam teaches:
One true monotheistic God, a separate being from his creation, and opposing false gods.

Sikhism and Vaishnavism teach:
One all-pervading nirguna which manifests as creation through sarguna, starting from the Trimurti and expanding to all creation.  Yet the creation in Advaistist definition is also an illusion, and really only the One nirguna, because everything is Him.  There are no false gods, there are just lesser lights who are not completely merged in the nirguna, and cannot approach His limits.  The creation is made from the pakriti of three gunas, rajo, tamo, sato and also Maya, which is the force of illusion, and duality where we perceive in pairs of opposites: male, female, hot, cold, pleasure, pain.  But in truth, reality is ONE.  Duality of separation is illusion which the brahmgyani (Brahma Jnana) no longer perceives.


Islam teaches:
One eternal Heaven for the righteous
One eternal Hell for the unbelievers


Vaishnavism and Sikhism teach:
uncountable realms, deva lokas, hells according to karam and state of consciousness which are all impermanent.  Reincarnation as a cycle of transmigration through many life forms, including animal or spiritual beings which are impermanent and a source of suffering.  That there are 8.4 million species of incarnation.  That the ultimate mukti is not to attain a deva loka, or heaven realm, but merging with the One nirgun God which is true Reality not subject to impermanence.  Also accepting the teaching of jivanmukti, that the human body is priceless because mukti can be obtained with it, even in this very life.


Islam teaches:
God is not the same as His creation.  God cannot be born.  God cannot die.  God cannot be an incarnation, or avtaar.  God's message is communicated to the world through "prophets" who are individual men that can make mistakes.


Sikhism and Vaishnavism teach:
God is pervading within all His creation as an actual conscious presence, and indeed is the true underlying identity of all the countless forms.  Through the sargun manifestation, the nirguna experiences what all creation experiences.  Being born, dying are only illusions of Maya.  In reality, nothing is born, and nothing dies.  There is only the One, Paramatma, Parabrahm, Maha-Vishnu, Ishwara, nirguna which is totality encompassing all that sarguna is.  To liberate the darkness and suffering of sansaara world, the God incarnates as an avtaar (complete sargun manifestation of God's Light) from age to age to set Dharma on it's throne again, as a path of liberation which falls off it's seat in various yugs due to the increasing corruption of the time cycle. In truth, Vaishnavism and Sikhism do not believe in a monotheistic God in any Abrahamic sense, but in a pantheistic all-pervading Oneness which directs and controls the universe.


Islam teaches:
Salvation is based on believing in the message of Prophet Mohammed, believing in the One True God, renouncing all false beliefs, false forms of worship and false gods and believing in God's holy book, the Koran.


Sikhism and Vaishnavism teach:
That in the age of Kaliyuga, all legs of religion have become corrupted.  The only boat of mukti is believing in a Satguru who teaches how to Jap the Names of God as Naam Gurmantra, and sing kirtan with bhakti, intense devotion, which dissolves ego and cultivating bairaag and tyaag, dhyaan and gyaan.  The sound current of the Naad vibrates through Shabad, so the very utterance of the Name is power of Gurmantra, the intonation, the sound current cleanses the thoughts, the chakrs, the karma, the defilements and panj bhootas so as to allow samaadhi consciousness, opening of dasm duar to have Darshan of the sargun God (the nirguna is imperceivable and formless), and ultimately mukti through merging into the fourth state of transcendant consciousness, Turiya, which is beyond the three gunas and Maya.


To further distinguish Vaishnavism from brahminism:
Vaishnavism started as a reform movement against the corruption of brahmin elitism and caste system teaching that anyone who was devoted to God is a brahmin, that caste varna sytem has to do with spiritual states, not hereditary limitations.  Vaishnavism appealed to the lower classes and Ram Namis were called the untouchable religion, because they accepted for membership any caste, women and even Muslims.

Vaishnavism teaches not to worship the demi-gods because the highest you can obtain is the particular deva loka.  Vaishnavism teaches the demi-gods do not know the limits of the nirguna.  Vaishnavism teaches that brahmins and pandits who only read about religion but don't practice or live it, in non-hypocritical ways are no path of mukti but have lost the way.  The scriptures cannot give you mukti, only bhakti, naam jap and sankirtan can lead to liberation because these practices cleanse the inner nature of defilements and unite, are a form of Raja Yoga to unite with the One true God, who is both nirgun and sargun.

Vaishnavism teaches that warriors who defend the Dharma are a path to mukti.  The purpose of the 10 avtaars of Maha-Vishnu (the All-pervading) act as warriors, to slay demonic powers which perpetuate injustices and keep the world in darkness.  So there is no discrepancy between Sikhism as a warrior path, and original Vaishnav teachings, which can be found throughout Shri Dasm Granth as examples of warrior spirit for the Khalsa.

Vaishnavism in not worshipping demi-gods but worshipping only the One True nirguna as manifested in sargun form through the das avtaaras, jap and sing kirtan as Names of God those names and titles of the Das Avtaars: Ram, Har Krishna, Gobinda, Gopala, Vasudeyva, Vishnu, Narasingh, Kalki.





> I would also like to add that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj has clearly stated:
> 
> SWAYYA
> 
> *Pae gae jab ta tumra tb ta khu anth tara nehee aneeyo. Ram rahim Puran kuran, anak kahy ma'th eek na maneyo. Simrat shastr badh sabh bohu padh kahaa ha'm ek na janeyo. Sri aspanh kirpa tumree karh maa na kheyo sab tohay bkhanyo. (30)
> 
> * O God ! Since I have held your feet, none other has entered my vision; Ram, Rahim, Puranas, Quran and many others recite, but I don't believe in even one. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me. ~Benti Chaupi



Guru is talking about being merged with the totality of the nirguna which is beyond every sargun form.  The reason Naam is from names of sarguna is because nirguna is formless and has no Name.  No human mind can chant what is beyond language, so the human mind cannot approach the limits of the mysteries of God in nirgun form.  

Guruji is beyond sarguna, because He has grasped the totality.  If we took this tuuk to interpret Guruji is saying He doesn't believe in Ram, for example, then why does Gurbani contradict and say the Name of God is Ram, Ram?  So the meaning must be deeper.  Where it says Guruji doesn't believe in the Shastras, Vedas, Puranas and Quaran, is because Guruji has transcended the limits, the scriptures cannot describe the limits.  A person would finish himself before he could describe the limits of nirgun God, so we know Guruji is talking about the nirguna here.

So this particular tuuk from Benti Chaupai is showing us Guruji has merged into the infinite consciousness which is without form and beyond every scripture of every tongue.  He is speaking from a state of exaltation, or nirbikalpa samadhi, the samadhi which is beyond expression and thoughts.  So there is no scripture which could possibly describe the experience Guruji is having.  He is beyond even humanity.  There is nothing in the world, not even the world's greatest scriptures could come close, they are like nothing compared to the vision of the God.



ਏਵਡੁ ਊਚਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
eaevadd oochaa hovai koe ||
Only one as Great and as High as God  

ਤਿਸੁ ਊਚੇ ਕਉ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
this oochae ko jaanai soe ||
can know His Lofty and Exalted State.

ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ॥ 
jaevadd aap jaanai aap aap ||
Only He Himself is that Great. He Himself knows Himself. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥੨੪॥ 
naanak nadharee karamee dhaath ||24||
O Nanak, by His Glance of Grace, He bestows His Blessings. ||24||

ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
bahuthaa karam likhiaa naa jaae ||
His Blessings are so abundant that there can be no written account of them.
~SGGS Ji p. 5​



ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਬੇਦ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ 
simrith saasath baedh vakhaanai ||
They recite the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas,

ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲਾ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ 
bharamae bhoolaa thath n jaanai ||
but deluded by doubt, they do not understand the essence of reality.
~SGGS Ji p. 114​



ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
vaedh kehehi vakhiaan anth n paavanaa ||
The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
parriai naahee bhaedh bujhiai paavanaa ||
Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.  

ਖਟੁ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੈ ਭੇਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
khatt dharasan kai bhaekh kisai sach samaavanaa ||
There are six pathways in the Shaastras, but how rare are those who merge in the True Lord through them.  

ਸਚਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
sachaa purakh alakh sabadh suhaavanaa ||
The True Lord is Unknowable; through the Word of His Shabad, we are embellished.

ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਸੰਖ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ 
mannae naao bisankh dharageh paavanaa ||
One who believes in the Name of the Infinite Lord, attains the Court of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 148​



But by the same token, we can't just oversimplify and jump to thre conclusion, Oh, Guruji has attained the Supreme, and the sarguna and the scriptures cannot compare and therefore are meaningless to a Sikh.  And the reason is, we have to consider the balance of Gurbani.  Gurbani never contradicts.  Only our understanding creates conflicts where there are none.




ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਇਉ ਕਹਿਆ ॥ 
saasath sinmrith baedh beechaarae mehaa purakhan eio kehiaa ||
The great men have studied the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas, and they have said this:

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਸੂਖੁ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਲਹਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
bin har bhajan naahee nisathaaraa sookh n kinehoon lehiaa ||1||
"Without the Lord's meditation, there is no emancipation, and no one has ever found peace."||1|| 

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਕੀ ਲਖਮੀ ਜੋਰੀ ਬੂਝਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਲਹਰੇ ॥ 
theen bhavan kee lakhamee joree boojhath naahee leharae ||
People may accumulate the wealth of the three worlds, but the waves of greed are still not subdued.

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਥਿਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਫਿਰਤੋ ਪਹਰੇ ਪਹਰੇ ॥੨॥ 
bin har bhagath kehaa thhith paavai firatho peharae peharae ||2||
Without devotional worship of the Lord, where can anyone find stability? People wander around endlessly. ||2||

ਅਨਿਕ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਕਰਤ ਮਨ ਮੋਹਨ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਤ ਨ ਕਾਮਾ ॥ 
anik bilaas karath man mohan pooran hoth n kaamaa ||
People engage in all sorts of mind-enticing pastimes, but their passions are not fulfilled.

ਜਲਤੋ ਜਲਤੋ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਬੂਝਤ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਿਥੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੩॥ 
jalatho jalatho kabehoo n boojhath sagal brithhae bin naamaa ||3||
They burn and burn, and are never satisfied; without the Lord's Name, it is all useless. ||3

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤਾ ਇਹੈ ਸਾਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥ 
har kaa naam japahu maerae meethaa eihai saar sukh pooraa ||
Chant the Name of the Lord, my friend; this is the essence of perfect peace.
~SGGS Ji p. 215​


So Gurbani shows the Vedas, Shastras and Simritis correctly teach that liberation can only come by meditation, which Guruji tells us chanting the Name is supreme.  So it cannot be right that Shastras, Vedas and Simritis are absolutely useless, and also what they teach is correct.  If they teach something correct, they have a use.  But simply teaching is not equivalent of being able to give experience of the God.




ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਾਧ ਮਗ ਸੁਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
baedh puraan saadhh mag sun kar nimakh n har gun gaavai ||1|| rehaao ||
This mind listens to the Vedas, the Puraanas, and the ways of the Holy Saints, but it does not sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, for even an instant. ||1||Pause||

ਦੁਰਲਭ ਦੇਹ ਪਾਇ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਿਰਾਵੈ ॥ 
dhuralabh dhaeh paae maanas kee birathhaa janam siraavai ||
Having obtained this human body, so very difficult to obtain, it is now being uselessly wasted.
~SGGS Ji p. 220​



Because Guru is Satguru, He is able to give us the correct teaching.  It's not by pondering holy scriptures that one obtains liberation, but by singing the praise of the God.  Again, this does not say holy scriptures are useless.  It clarifies that substituting knowledge of holy scriptures for dhyaan and Simran, you miss the boat of mukti.




ਸਾਧੋ ਰਾਮ ਸਰਨਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਮਾ ॥ 
saadhho raam saran bisaraamaa ||
Holy Saadhus: rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. 

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
baedh puraan parrae ko eih gun simarae har ko naamaa ||1|| rehaao ||
This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 220​


How can it be, if Gurbani doesn't contradict itself, that we read Benti Chaupi to say Vedas and Puranas are like nothing, Guruji doesn't believe in even one, yet Gurbani shows in many places the wisdom and the blessing of the Vedas and Puranas?  So to reconcile the contradiction, we have to understand that liberation and knowledge of the limits of nirguna cannot come from scriptures.  It can't come from being a pandit or scholar and knowing all these things, because they do not know the limits.  YET...

and here is the key, yet, they teach us about what we can know.  They teach us we can meditate on the Name of the Lord to obtain liberation.  Nowhere is Gurbani saying the Vedas and Puranas are false or speak wrongly.  Gurbani says they do not know the limits of nirguna.  So it has to be read in context of the actual meaning, otherwise we ourselves create contradictions in Gurbani where there are none.  For the mind which is merged and surpasses the limits of all the scriptures and word definitions of human knowledge, these things are like nothing.  But Gurbani says the good thing is they teach how to meditate on God and chant the name of God to obtain liberation.  And this would also explain the history that Guruji studied and translated with pandits Sanskrit and the Hindu scriptures into Panjabi so the average Panjabi could understand teachings that had been limited exclusively to those who could read Sanskrit.  Why would Guruji have done this if these Vedas and Puranas were completely useless?  So you see, it's important to read in context and not take a single tuuk or pauri and create a whole new definition.  We know that the spiritual experience itself is beyond what is written about spiritual experience.  But there is a difference from interpreting and implying uselessness or falsehood to something when the definition given is simply that it cannot even touch the limits.




ਗੋਤ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਸੋਧਿ ਕੈ ਪੜੈ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਭਾਈ । 
got atdaarah sodhi kai parhai puraan atdaarah bhaaee|
Thoroughly understanding the eighteen gotras, sub castes, the gurmukhs go through the eighteen puranas.

ਉਨੀ ਵੀਹ ਇਕੀਹ ਲਘਿ ਬਾਈ ਉਮਰੇ ਸਾਧਿ ਨਿਵਾਈ । 
unee veeh ikeeh|aghi baaee umaray saadhi nivaaee|
Jumping over nineteen, twenty and twenty-one.  

ਸੰਖ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੁਟਾਇ ਕੈ ਤੇਈ ਚੌਵੀ ਪੰਜੀਹ ਪਾਈ । 
sankh asankh|utaai kai tayee chauvee panjeeh paaee|
They make the number of twenty-three, twenty-four and twenty-five meaningful.  

ਛਬੀ ਜੋੜਿ ਸਤਾਈਹਾ ਆਇ ਅਠਾਈਹ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ । 
chhabee jorhi sataaeehaa aai atdaaeeh mayli milaaee|
In the name of twenty-six, twenty-seven, twenty-eight they meet the Lord.

ਉਲਘਿ ਉਣਤੀਹ ਤੀਹ ਸਾਧਿ ਲਘਿ ਇਕਤੀਹ ਵਜੀ ਵਧਾਈ । 
ulaghi unateeh teeh saadhi|aghi ikateeh vajee vadhaaee|
Crossing twenty-nine, thirty and reaching thirty-one, in their heart they feel blest and delighted. 

ਸਾਧ ਸੁਲਖਣ ਬਤੀਹੇ ਤੇਤੀਹ ਧ੍ਰ ਚਉਫੇਰਿ ਫਿਰਾਈ । 
saadh sulakhan bateehay tayteeh dhr chaudhayri dhiraaee|
Accomplishing the thirty-two saintly characteristics, like Dhru they make thirty-three crore gods and goddesses shake and revolve around (them).

ਚਉਤੀਹ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖ ਲਖਾਈ ॥੧੫॥ 
chauteeh|aykh alaykh|akhaaee ॥15॥
Touching thirty-four they realize the Invisible Lord i.e. the gurmukhs going above all the numbers get exhilerated in the love of Lord who is beyond all the counts.
~Vaar 7 Pauri 15 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​


ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ 
niragun saragun har har maeraa koee hai jeeo aan milaavai jeeo ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 98​


So lets consider the example of Ram.



> *Pae gae jab ta tumra tb ta khu anth tara nehee aneeyo. Ram rahim Puran kuran, anak kahy ma'th eek na maneyo. Simrat shastr badh sabh bohu padh kahaa ha'm ek na janeyo. Sri aspanh kirpa tumree karh maa na kheyo sab tohay bkhanyo. (30)
> 
> * O God ! Since I have held your feet, none other has entered my vision; Ram, Rahim, Puranas, Quran and many others recite, but I don't believe in even one. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me. ~Benti Chaupi





We know that chanting and singing the praise of the Name of the Lord is the path to liberation. 


ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਤੂੰ ਕਾਦਿਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਾਕੀ ਨਾਈ ਪਾਕੁ ॥ 
sabh thaeree kudharath thoon kaadhir karathaa paakee naaee paak ||
Everything is in Your Power, Lord; You are the all-powerful Creator. Your Name is the Holiest of the Holy.
~SGGS Ji p. 464​



So what can it mean that Guruji does not believe in Ram?   The Lord is formless and countless are the forms which are like dust.  So we know that this whole world is only one of countless millions.  They are realms even higher than this one, and even those do not know the limits.




ਸੁਰ ਤੇਤੀਸਉ ਜੇਵਹਿ ਪਾਕ ॥ 
sur thaetheeso jaevehi paak ||
Three hundred thirty million gods eat the Lord's offerings. 

ਨਵ ਗ੍ਰਹ ਕੋਟਿ ਠਾਢੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥ 
nav greh kott thaadtae dharabaar ||
The nine stars, a million times over, stand at His Door. 

ਧਰਮ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਹਾਰ ॥੨॥ 
dhharam kott jaa kai prathihaar ||2||
Millions of Righteous Judges of Dharma are His gate-keepers. ||2||
~SGGS JI p. 1163​




ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥ 
naanak nirabho nirankaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||
O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ 
kaetheeaa kannh kehaaneeaa kaethae baedh beechaar ||
There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

ਕੇਤੇ ਨਚਹਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਗਿੜਿ ਮੁੜਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥ 
kaethae nachehi mangathae girr murr poorehi thaal ||
So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ਬਾਜਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਇ ਕਢਹਿ ਬਾਜਾਰ ॥ 
baajaaree baajaar mehi aae kadtehi baajaar ||
The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion.

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੀਆ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਆਲ ਪਤਾਲ ॥ 
gaavehi raajae raaneeaa bolehi aal pathaal ||
They sing as kings and queens, and speak of this and that.

ਲਖ ਟਕਿਆ ਕੇ ਮੁੰਦੜੇ ਲਖ ਟਕਿਆ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ॥ 
lakh ttakiaa kae mundharrae lakh ttakiaa kae haar ||
They wear earrings, and necklaces worth thousands of dollars.

ਜਿਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸੇ ਤਨ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਛਾਰ ॥ 
jith than paaeeahi naanakaa sae than hovehi shhaar ||
Those bodies on which they are worn, O Nanak, those bodies turn to ashes.
~SGGS Ji p. 464​



But is this saying Ram and Krishna are worthless the way we interpret this?  Is this saying Gurbani teaches not to believe in Ram or Krishna as if they are mere mythology or ritualistic superstition?




ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
gur bin mokh mukath kio paaeeai ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone be emancipated or liberated?

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਿਉ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥ 
bin gur raam naam kio dhhiaaeeai ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone meditate on the Lord's Name? 

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਤਰਹੁ ਭਵ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੯॥ 
guramath laehu tharahu bhav dhuthar mukath bheae sukh paaeiaa ||9||
Accepting the Guru's Teachings, cross over the arduous, terrifying world-ocean; you shall be emancipated, and find peace. ||9|| 

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਿ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੇ ॥ 
guramath kirasan govaradhhan dhhaarae ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, Krishna lifted up the mountain of Govardhan. 

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਇਰਿ ਪਾਹਣ ਤਾਰੇ ॥ 
guramath saaeir paahan thaarae ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, Rama floated stones across the ocean.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥੧੦॥ 
guramath laehu param padh paaeeai naanak gur bharam chukaaeiaa ||10||
Accepting the Guru's Teachings, the supreme status is obtained; O Nanak, the Guru eradicates doubt. ||10||
~SGGS Ji p. 1041​



Gurbani says that Ram and Krishna had the ability to achieve great things because they accepted the Guru's teachings.  So clearly they are not worthless or incapable of performing great things.  Gurbani clearly says they did great things because of Guruji's teachings, so they were acting through the power of Guruji.  If they were acting through the power of Guruji's teachings then they were Gurmukhs.  And if they are Gurmuks, then they are liberated.  And if they are liberated, they have surpassed even the devas.




ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.

ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.

ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.

ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits. 

ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ 
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth.

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​


If we carefully look at what Gurbani is teaching, it has nothing to do with what many Sikhs are implying about mythologies or rituals or superstition or worthlessness or even disbelief.  If Guruji did not believe in the devas, why does Gurbani say the nirguna created them?  If we are supposed to disbelieve them, it means they aren't real.  But Gurbani is saying the God created the devas and brought the avtaaras into being.  So clearly there is a purpose.  What is to disbelieve?  Gurbani says the avtaaras killed the demons by God's hukam.  That was their purpose.

Gurbani establishes that liberation is not found through memorizing and reading the scriptures, but by putting into practice what they teach, dhyaan and simran.  Gurbani establishes that the Name of the Lord is the highest, because through the Name we reach the actual presence through darshan of the Lord and merging.



ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਨਾਮੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧੨॥੧੩॥ 
naanak guramukh naam dhhiaaeae naamae naam samaavaniaa ||8||12||13||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs meditate on the Naam; through the Naam, they merge in the Naam. ||8||12||13||
~SGGS i p. 117​



But chanting the Name alone is not enough to achieve mukti.


ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਕਹਿਐ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
raam raam sabh ko kehai kehiai raam n hoe ||
Everyone chants the Lord's Name, Raam, Raam; but by such chanting, the Lord is not obtained.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ 
gur parasaadhee raam man vasai thaa fal paavai koe ||1||
By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to dwell in the mind, and then, the fruits are obtained. ||1
~SGGS Ji p. 491​



Guruji's grace is needed for the Naam to be effective in bringing us to liberation.  And what is the Name of the God?



ਮੰਤ੍ਰੰ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਪੂਰਨਹ ॥ 
manthran raam raam naaman dhhyaanan sarabathr pooraneh ||
Through the Mantra of the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam, one meditates on the All-pervading Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1357​



ਗੁਰਮੁਖੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਦਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
guramukhae guramukh nadharee raam piaaraa raam ||
As Gurmukh, the Gurmukh beholds the Lord, the Beloved Lord.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ 
raam naam piaaraa jagath nisathaaraa raam naam vaddiaaee ||
The Name of the Lord, the Emancipator of the world, is dear to him; the Name of the Lord is his glory.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲਘਾਈ ॥ 
kalijug raam naam bohithhaa guramukh paar laghaaee ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name is the boat, which carries the Gurmukh across.
~SGGS Ji p. 443
​


Now, how do we reconcile the tuuk in Benti Chaupi which says Guruji does not even believe in Ram, and Gurbani which says the Gurmukh chants and meditates on the name of Ram as the name of the Lord?  We know that Gurbani doesn't contradict itself, only we people who are basically foolish make contradictions where there are one.

So in this instance, many Sikhs will claim, "But that isn't Rama Chandra the avtaara.  Thats just the nirguna.  Raam means the nirguna.  Guruji doesn't believe in Rama Chandra.  And this would seem to resolve the conflict and make sense.  But is it true?




ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
raam raam karathaa sabh jag firai raam n paaeiaa jaae ||
The entire world roams around, chanting, ""Raam, Raam, Lord, Lord"", but the Lord cannot be obtained like this.  

ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਅਤਿ ਵਡਾ ਅਤੁਲੁ ਨ ਤੁਲਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
agam agochar ath vaddaa athul n thuliaa jaae ||
He is inaccessible, unfathomable and so very great; He is unweighable, and cannot be weighed.

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਲਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
keemath kinai n paaeeaa kithai n laeiaa jaae ||
No one can evaluate Him; He cannot be purchased at any price.  

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿਆ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ 
gur kai sabadh bhaedhiaa ein bidhh vasiaa man aae ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, His mystery is known; in this way, He comes to dwell in the mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਿ ਅਮੇਉ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
naanak aap amaeo hai gur kirapaa thae rehiaa samaae ||
O Nanak, He Himself is infinite; by Guru's Grace, He is known to be permeating and pervading everywhere. 

ਆਪੇ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਆਪੇ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੧॥ 
aapae miliaa mil rehiaa aapae miliaa aae ||1||
He Himself comes to blend, and having blended, remains blended. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 555​



So it does seem to be the fact, that Ram in Gurbani refers to the One nirgun Lord.  So what about the other Rama Chandra avtaar?  Who is he?  Is he nothing?  Is he dust?  Is he not to be believed?  Doesn't Gurbani say he is like a Gurmukh who follows the Guru's teachings?  Doesn't Gurbani say the hukam of God brought the avtaars to kill the demons?  What does that mean?




ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
kabeer raam kehan mehi bhaedh hai thaa mehi eaek bichaar ||
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥ 
soee raam sabhai kehehi soee kouthakehaar ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ 
kabeer raamai raam kahu kehibae maahi bibaek ||
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. 

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥ 
eaek anaekehi mil gaeiaa eaek samaanaa eaek ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
~SGGS Ji p. 1374
​



So careful reading of Gurbani shows that truly japping Naam is not idol worshipping the sargun form of Rama Chandra King of Avodhya, son of Dasrath which is dust, but the Jyot of the All-pervading within him.  This also explains where Guruji says don't worship me, but Gurbani equates the Guru with God.  So we see the distinction is being made between the sarguna, which is within the sansaar and subject to the three gunas and duality and Maya, and the nirguna which is the One true Lord.

So what is the purpose of any Ram Chandra at all?  What is the purpose of any physical form of Guru at all?  Why not have a religion like the Islamics which only teaches about some nirguna and not complicate with all these sargun forms and avtaaras?  What's the purpose if they're nothing, if they're not to be worshipped or believed?





ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥ 
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥ 
paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥ 
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||  

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ 
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. 

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ 
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. 

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ 
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.  

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ 
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​



So to fully resolve the seeming inconsistency, we have to take into account the vast differences between the sargun and the nirgun.  One has a limit and the other does not.  One dies and fades to dust and the other is unborn.  So to worship the physical forms of Guru would be foolish because these have faded away and don't even exist anymore.  This is like an empty idol, it can't do anything for you if you pray to it.  It isn't the personality or limitations of any sargun form which we put our belief in, because these are all impermanent.  And so Gurbani teaches the Sikh to make the distinction between the form and the formless.  While we recognize that the form was brought into being by the formless, it is the formless One which we worship, and not the form.

Gurbani teaches that the formless One is pervading within the forms.  Who is the "You" Gurbani is talking about when describing the incarnations, the avtaaras?  The "You" is the formless One manifesting in sansaara to be Guru to the world, Shabad-Jyot to liberate the world and right the Dharma and kill the demons.  The forms will die.  But the formless One who pervades within them can never die, and so this is an eternal message to the world.  We don't worship a dead Rama Chandra, but the Shabad-Jyot which is unchanging and eternal king.  So Naam Gurmantra only has power when it is distinguished as Name of the All-pervading formless One and not some name of a dead physical form.

The nirgun is permeating the sargun.  The sargun is brought into being by the hukam of the nirgun.  And the sargun is the nirgun Himself.



ਏਕਹਿ ਸੂਤਿ ਪਰੋਵਨਹਾਰਾ ॥ 
eaekehi sooth parovanehaaraa ||
He strung it upon His one thread.

ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੰ ॥ 
bhinn bhinn thrai gun bisathhaaran ||
He created the diverse expanse of the three qualities.

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ ॥ 
niragun thae saragun dhrisattaaran ||
From formless, He appeared as form.

ਸਗਲ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥ 
sagal bhaath kar karehi oupaaeiou ||
The Creator has created the creation of all sorts.  

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਮਨ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਢਾਇਓ ॥ 
janam maran man mohu badtaaeiou ||
The attachment of the mind has led to birth and death. 

ਦੁਹੂ ਭਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ ॥ 
dhuhoo bhaath thae aap niraaraa ||
He Himself is above both, untouched and unaffected.  

ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ 
naanak anth n paaraavaaraa ||2||
O Nanak, He has no end or limitation. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p.250​



ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਇਕ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ 
anik rang niragun eik rangaa ||
He manifests many forms, while still unmanifest and absolute, and yet He has One Form.
~SGGS Ji p. 803​



ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 174​



ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||  

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥ 
pehil purasaabiraa ||
First of all, there was only the Primal Being.  

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥ 
athhon purasaadhamaraa ||
From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥ 
asagaa as ousagaa ||
All that is, is His.  

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
har kaa baagaraa naachai pindhhee mehi saagaraa ||1|| rehaao ||
In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥ 
naachanthee gopee jannaa ||
Women and men both dance. 

ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥ 
neeaa thae bairae kannaa ||
There is no other than the Lord. 

ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥ 
tharak n chaa ||
Don't dispute this, 

ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥ 
bhrameeaa chaa ||
and don't doubt this.

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ 
kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||
The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same.""||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 693
​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## jagmeet

Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji,

Please answer a few questions:-When was Vaishnavite reform movement started? Who started it?Are there any strictly  Vaishnavite Hindus around--if yes, do they not worship any of the devis and devtas or any of the sargun roops,or follow caste system or other rituals?Again if your answer is yes, how many are they in number?There are other questions too--who has given these definitions--Vaishnavite Hinduism or other forms of Hinduism?Are these well defined demarcations/schools accepted by all?What texts do the Vaishnavs follow and which ones they reject?I guess your answer is that they follow the Vedas--have you read the Vedas yourself?Are you sure that Vedas don't profess worship of devis and devtas,but only the nirgun God?I am asking this because I read somewhere that Vedas mention  worship of Indra and Agni devtas.

Anyway,whatever be your answers, I still don't understand what is to be gained by proving(which you haven't done) that teachings of one religion are identical to that of another---even if they are,so what?

Let me also add that my beliefs (and that of others born much after) are not fashioned by the Singh Sabha movement(though I don't have anything against it from the little that I know).


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## spnadmin

Sikh Philosophy Network asks that the diversity of religious points of view be respected. Respecting the identity of Sikhism, its history, and its unique philosophical and ethical beliefs must likewise be respected. After 24 hours of serious discussion by forum leaders, our opinion was that respect for Sikh identity had not been maintained. Our  decision therefore was to close the thread.

Be cautioned that wherever and whenever in the forum this occurs again, same thread will be closed without notice. 

Sat Sri Akaal,
Antonia


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