# Is Ritual-Bath In Sarovars An Essential Part Of Sikhism?



## jasbirkaleka (Mar 26, 2010)

ikonkaar There are many sakhies of Guru Nanak Dev ji where he has,by giving examples,denounced ritual-bathing in so-called "holy" rivers and sarovars,then how is it that sarovars were built in gurudwaras and various heeling  and soul-cleansing powers  attributed to them.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Mar 26, 2010)

jasbirkaleka said:


> ikonkaar There are many sakhies of Guru Nanak Dev ji where he has,by giving examples,denounced ritual-bathing in so-called "holy" rivers and sarovars,then how is it that sarovars were built in gurudwaras and various heeling  and soul-cleansing powers  attributed to them.



Jasbir ji,

Guru Fateh.

I like your thought provoking questions with which you love to nudge  people and that is necessary in Sikhi because the name itself suggests  the  journey of learning for a Sikh.

As the title of this thread  indicates it is a 'ritual bath', which is futile. 

Let's say for the sake of this argument that Sarovars are built in Gurdwaras for the purpose of the ritual dip. Let's talk about the  _Sanctum Sanctorum_ of Sikhi, Harmander Sahib which is built around a sarovar and has four doors.

If Guru Ram Das ji's  intention  to build the sarovar was that people should take a dip in it then it means he was deliberating contradicting and flaunting at what Guru Nanak Dev ji said in Jap- which for me is the foundation stone of Sikhi.

And that would be impossible because our Gurus were all one Jyot, meaning that Sikhi is idea based way of life unlike personified deity based  other dogmatic religions.

 It means that Jyot is the evolution of the idea/message of breeding goodness within.

This is the reason that as we evolve, Gurbani gives us the priviledge to take a glimpse of another angle that we never imagined existed and that angle acts like our inner mirror.

Coming back to taking a dip in the Sarovar, allow me to share my personal story about it.

In the year 2000, I took both my kids to visit my ailing Mum. Jaskeerat who is 19 now was 10 years old and Trimaan was 5. I took them to visit Amritsar with my Massi ( my mum's sister) who was living with my Mum in Ferozepore, my home town.

I have always shared Sikhi with them since they were kids so asking questions by them and myself trying my best to respond to their queries was and still a norm in our house but now its Sikhi spectrum has a wider horizon which also involves everything else in our daily lives of Miri-Piri.

The idea was to go and visit Harmander Sahib and take a dip in the sarovar. Trimaan being 5 was very excited because he saw lots of other people doing it and he thought it was fun. Trimaan and I took a dip and Jaskeerat went with my Massi to do the same in the ladies enclosed section.

When she came out, she was very angry and she wanted to sit down and talk to me about this ritual. We sat for about 30 minutes going back and forth while Trimaan went along happily with Massi ji after having taken a dip in the biggest  'swimming pool' of his life.

Jasbir ji, my 10 year old American born daughter showed me the futility of this ritual that I had not thought about it before. This also proves how our visionary Gurus eliminated hierarchy. We just have to open ourselves to learn from anyone and anything.

The other ritual which is related to the same thing is about sipping water. A special place is constructed at Harmander Sahib where people go and take a gulp or two from the sarovar water. Some bring with them empty booze bottles to fill with this so called 'Amrit'. Plastic bottles are sold in the shops outside the Gurdwaras  for this purpose. There is a special 'seva' at Bangla Sahib where the sevadaars stand with a  kettle kind of utensil to offer water and people go their in a very humble manner and take a sip.

All these things contradict the beautiful message of Gurbani and become mechanical rituals which our Gurus were against and Gurbani tells us that. 

The reason we do not get it is because we have become wonderful parrots of Gurbani rather than trying to understand it and make it our inner GPS, so it can lead us out of our inner labyrinths of lives in which we have been stuck for a very long time.

Thanks for the wonderful question.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 26, 2010)

The SAROVAR..WATER..also signifies..HUMILITY..becasue Water always FLOWS towards the LOWEST POINT..it always FINDS its own LEVEL. Rivers, flowing dariyaas , samundar, ocean, neer etc are also used in Gurbani to impart valuable lessons...

Pannee is our PITA..as Dhartee is our Mata...everyone got the significance of the "FOUR DOORS"..but forgot the significance of the WATER BODY surrounding the Four Doors !!

Our Gurus are Masters at imparting Gurmatt by using the available..vocabulary, language, metaphors, poetry, physical things such as water, dhoorr (dust), khets, farming and various animals - lions, donkeys, dogs deer monkey elephant.....and birds..crow, owl, vulture, eagle, etc etc the list is ENDLESS !!

Its our great LOSS that we slipped backwards into the very things that Guur Ji spent over 250 years to drag us OUT OF...and in our haste to comply with the REJECTED traditions, pramparas, accepted rituals etc etc we ADAPTED or INVENTED our very own RITUALS. Even though in the very beginning of Japji Guru nanak ji Totally REJECTS ritualised bathing/teeraths etc..we invented our own teeraths..and happily began to bathe there imagining that we can wash our sins there....and of course the Commercially minded ones among us were glad..they went about publicising these teeraths and jathas after Jathas viist these year in and year out..evryone GAINS..the Travel Agent..the Gurdwara Goluck..the  Teerath Vasee thousands earning a living form these...BUT the LOSERS are the " SANGATS" who go on a futile tour to wash their sins...liivng in a  fools paradise that their MANN has ben washed by WATER wetting their BODY !!
Now it being the AGE OF IT/Computers...these Gurdwars are getting intot he E-Act as well..so we have Virtual "tours"..E_GOLUCK whereby Matha Tek and GOLUCK can be sent in Electronically from afar..Akhand Paaths/ardasses/paaths etc also can be Electronically "booked" "Completed" "hukmanma taken" "ardass done"..etc and its "VIRTUAL PHALL" (Spiritual benefits..such as good health/win court case/progress in buisness/careers/pass exams..etc etc )  sent/received via the Internet !! Very soon DEGH/Langgar will also be sent electronically !!OR  At least Paid for electronically ).

How Fast we are "progressing"....even Guru Ji would be surprised..in just 500 years we have gone backwards 1000 years !!


----------



## harbansj24 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes Gyaniji you are right. But Sikhism is now an institutionalised religion. Any institution is bound to have corruptors and corruption. But the institution goes on and flourishes not because of the corrupt people but because of the sensible and responsible people who outnumber the corrupt & dysfunctional persons. But if the institution has a large majority that is corrupt or irresposible then it decays and is bound to wither and die. We see this happenning in institutions like democracy, capitalism, socialism, etc which started as ideal institutions but at some places because of overwhelming corruption is decaying. However at some places where it is well under control, these still flourish.

So Sikhi in large parts of world including large parts of India is still vibrant, thanks to alert persons like you, Narayanjot kaur ji, Tejwant Singh ji etc. Yes but it is showing definite signs of decay in (of all the places) Punjab!


----------



## Randip Singh (Mar 27, 2010)

jasbirkaleka said:


> ikonkaar There are many sakhies of Guru Nanak Dev ji where he has,by giving examples,denounced ritual-bathing in so-called "holy" rivers and sarovars,then how is it that sarovars were built in gurudwaras and various heeling  and soul-cleansing powers  attributed to them.



Excellent question Jasbir ji.

This is a great example of something practical that has become a ritual.

The Guru's encouraged people to purity of mind and body and adopt some discipline.

So if you think about it.You wake up and don't bathe, you still feel half asleep. I certainly do.

If I bathe, I feel more alert and am able to give 100% to all tasks.

My body odour is also not a nuisance to others. :veryhappymunda1:

Other than that it has NO spiritual value.


----------



## dalbirk (Mar 27, 2010)

The sarovars IMHO were built to serve two purposes . Firstly to remove caste based differences , standing water being polluted by a (so-called ) low caste bathing in same water as the ( so-called ) high caste . In this respect Hindu pilgrimages are all on river bank , water flowing downstream hence no fear of being POLLUTED . But standing water is a big nightmare for ( so-called ) high caste Brahmins . Hence standing water of Sarovars . Secondly the idea is to wash your body clean in Sarovar , have wholesome food in Langar & then have spiritual bliss in Gurbani Kirtan at Darbaar Sahib .


----------



## Astroboy (Mar 27, 2010)

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਗਉੜੀ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਜੀ  ॥ 
गउड़ी कबीर जी ॥ 
Ga▫oṛī Kabīr jī. 
Gauree, Kabeer Jee: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੰਧਿਆ  ਪ੍ਰਾਤ  ਇਸ੍ਨਾਨੁ  ਕਰਾਹੀ  ॥ 
संधिआ प्रात इस्नानु कराही ॥ 
Sanḏẖi▫ā parāṯ isnān karāhī. 
Those who take their  ritual baths in the evening and the morning 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਉ  ਭਏ  ਦਾਦੁਰ  ਪਾਨੀ  ਮਾਹੀ  ॥੧॥ 
जिउ भए दादुर पानी माही ॥१॥ 
Ji▫o bẖa▫e ḏāḏur pānī māhī. ||1|| 
are like the frogs in the  water. ||1|| 

Full shabad Page 324
.........................................................

ਤੀਰਥਿ  ਨਾਵਾ  ਜੇ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵਾ  ਵਿਣੁ  ਭਾਣੇ  ਕਿ  ਨਾਇ  ਕਰੀ  ॥ 
तीरथि नावा जे तिसु भावा विणु  भाणे कि नाइ करी ॥ 
Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e  karī. 
If I am pleasing to Him,  then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him,  what good are ritual cleansings? 

Full stanza Page 2
..............................................................

ਕਰਿ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਤੂ  ਸਾਧ  ਕੀ  ਅਠਸਠਿ  ਤੀਰਥ  ਨਾਉ  ॥ 
करि संगति तू साध की अठसठि तीरथ  नाउ ॥ 
Kar sangaṯ ṯū sāḏẖ kī aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nā▫o. 
Let the Saadh Sangat, the  Company of the Holy, be your cleansing baths at the sixty-eight sacred  shrines of pilgrimage. 

Full shabad page 47

</td></tr></tbody></table>


----------



## jasbirkaleka (Mar 27, 2010)

:seriousmunda: Yes,Gyani ji,I  fully agree with you. But the big question is, what can be done to bring  Sikhi  back to its pristine purity, as given to us by  Guru Nanak Dev. We cannot depend upon the Golak-chors and so-called Babas and Sants, because these are the very people responsible for the abyssal state we find Sikhism today.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 27, 2010)

jasbirkaleka said:


> :seriousmunda: Yes,Gyani ji,I  fully agree with you. But the big question is, what can be done to bring  Sikhi  back to its pristine purity, as given to us by  Guru Nanak Dev. We cannot depend upon the Golak-chors and so-called Babas and Sants, because these are the very people responsible for the abyssal state we find Sikhism today.



jasbirkaleka ji

This morning I was thinking about this too. A little melodrama was going on in my head -- what would I say to someone like Badal or a leader of Sant Samaj if I had a chance to explain to him what is wrong with the current situation which he helped to create and make worse. Some thought process Duh!  I did not get very far because...

It dawned on me that Babas and Sants and Golak chors are found in every single religion. More than 50 percent of all cable TV programming in the US is religious programming. Think of it. Amazing! And the "ministers" who shepherd  their  flocks number in the hundreds on TV, radio, and Internet, not to mention local congregations. They have become fabulously rich and build huge chapels that attract pilgrims far and wide. Behind the scenes they are mean spirited, greedy, and in many cases they are sexual deviants and sexually abusive of women, children, in some cases men. They make public pronouncements that 911 and the Haiti earthquake are punishments by God. Politicians quake for fear of the impact they can have on US elections. All of this in the name of the Almighty Creator.

How different is that?

Why do people follow them? That question needs to be asked and you will get the answer to your question.

Sikhism is still pure. The message of Guru Nanak has not changed. Without followers these babawale thieves would not go forward. Why do people follow them?


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 27, 2010)

Jasbir Ji..
MY answer would be..EDUCATION.
Parents study the SGGS...vichaar...and ADAPT their daily lives accordingly..
EDUCATE YOURSELF...then EDUCATE your children...impart the solid foundation of Gurbani...vichaar...following its teachings....and the next genration at least is safe form these Babas and chors....SPN is one such SCHOOL of EDUCATION !!:happykaur::happysingh::thumbsuppp::thumbsupp:


----------



## Aulakh (Mar 29, 2010)

Gurfateh
Ishnan,taking bath, is considered essential in sikh scriptures,Kar Ishnan Simar Prabh Apna Tan Man Bhaiy Aroga.But at the same time taking bath at sarovars is not recommended.However, out of tradition many sarovars were built,probably taking into consideration that many people visit holy places and they need a place to take bath,in that case the srovars serve that purpose.But the bath at various Tiraths, for liberation, is not recommended in the scriptures.In Sriguru Granth Sahib,real emphasis is on cleaning the poluted mind and Naam Simran is the real Ishnan.
humbly 
Gian Singh Aulakh


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2010)

I agree. It is my understanding that the practice of bathing in sarovars has a historical rationale.  Pilgrims traveled through heat and dust storms and bathed before entering a holy shrine. This practice is related to Ishnaan only in that way. A purifying bath is through simran and nit nem our bhagati.


----------



## jasbirkaleka (Mar 30, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> I agree. It is my understanding that the practice of bathing in sarovars has a historical rationale. Pilgrims traveled through heat and dust storms and bathed before entering a holy shrine. This practice is related to Ishnaan only in that way. A purifying bath is through simran and nit nem our bhagati.


 
:khanda3:Narayanjot Kaur ji, most Sikhs would find it sacrilegious to suggest that taking a dip in the sarovar is to wash-off dirt from their bodies.The truth is that Hinduism is deeply ingrained in our psyche ,the reason we keep following their customs and celebrating Hindu festivals like divali etc.
It might come as a surprise to many that there were Hindu idols in the precincts of the Golden Temple and Hindu rituals were performed in the area.Hindus used to worship a Hindu deity after a sacred bath at the sarover, and Brahmins used to officiate at these ceremonies. It was only in 1905 Arur Singh, managar of Golden Temple ordered the removal of thes idols.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2010)

Well jasbirkaleka ji

Very little surprises me. The big question, or one of the big questions, is why so many are so satisfied with rituals, idols and god-men to help them on their journey?


----------



## jasbirkaleka (Mar 30, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Well jasbirkaleka ji
> 
> Very little surprises me. The big question, or one of the big questions, is why so many are so satisfied with rituals, idols and god-men to help them on their journey?


Narayanjot Kaur ji,
These people are weaklings.They are not spiritual people in the true sense of the term,because that would have made them strong to face the ups and downs of life. They are insecure beings.burdened with thier  miseries,who have no faith in their own inner strength to face the vegerities of life. They cling-on to any support,real or imaginary,that they feel can alleviate their sufferings.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2010)

jasbirkaleka ji

Do you think that for some the problem may be that no one in authority ever let them know, never told them, that they could and should "have faith in their own inner strength." And thus, one generation gives birth to another generation that remain stumped about their spiritual journey.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Mar 30, 2010)

Naraynjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

People are being made to believe this stunt of taking a dip in the sarovar. There are big banners hanging in the Parikarma-the pathway that surrounds Harmander Sahib,claiming the healing powers of the dip, stating and I am paraphrasing it now- If one takes a dip in this sarover, the ravens become swans, the lepers are healed, all diseases go away. They are obviously hung by the SGPC. I would love some of our members who live in India to take pictures of these banners and post them here.

So, in other words, SGPC is selling this snake oil.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 30, 2010)

I find Indians generally "weaklings"....i dont know if its the system..or what...
Just ask anyone...and everyone...ALL Indians give/Apply for their "passports" to be made NOT to the Immigration/Passport Office..BUT to "AGENTS".... They have agents for everything..so agents in religious affairs is also  a normal affair...

They have "AGENTS"...to go make Birth certiifcates for their children (BTW getting a BC for a child born is not as easy as ABC..its as difficult as ABC>>>>>>>>>>XYZ and ++ a few numbers as well !!! You require sworn stamped notiifcations form the Midwife/doctor/sarpanch/tehsildaar/police post/no objection certiificate/a judge/magistrate..BLAH BLAH BLAH..about 1 DOZEN such sworn stamped statements and of course A GOOD bundle of Gandhi Notes at each PIT STOP to GREASE the way..or your engine dies there/tyres puncture/or worse the Car gets stolen( file lost/misplaced )..and when your child does get that all precious "Birth certificate"..check and double check..triple check..becasue its bound to have ERRORS..wrong date (i saw one that had 31/31/1976)..wrong name ( I saw one that COMBINED the Names of TWIN Sisters...Eshwardeep Kanwardeep SINGH...and NO BC for the second Girl..when it should have been one BC for Eshwardeep KAUR..and another for Kanwardeep KAUR..the illeterate parents got ONE for EK SINGH !!..they have been trying to get it corrected for the past 9 years..no success yet....girls are now in std Five !!) ALL that is for FUTURE GREASING OPPORTUNITIES !!

I digress..a special thread on "agents in Indian life" could be  written..but thats beside the point....the point is...???? whats the point ...the point may be that NOTHING WORKS IN INDIA..without GREASING PALMS...not even ardass/paath/at a Gurdwara/Mandir/..whatever...Indians are conditioned to use "agents" for everything...

2. Whatelse is an Ishnaan for anyway..if NOT to wash off DIRT. ??  Gurbani describes the "dirt" as DIRT..meil...janam janm de meil...so clearly. And any child  knows that the Human BODY also has DIRT accumlated Daily whoch is to be washed off in an ishnaan..
Kar ishnaan simar prabh apna..MAN...TAN..Bhaiyeh AROGA !! aroga is HEALTHY...and Tan Body is healthy of washed free of its dirt in WATER and SOAP (advised by Guru nanak ji in japji)...and Man ..Mind is also free of its dirt after an ishnaan in SHABAD...
To allude otherwise is foolish...

3. The Brahmin IDOLS were Removed from the Darbar Sahib Complex in 1920's when the Singh Sabha Lehr succeeded and the SGPC/Akali Dal came into existence and TOOK over the SIKH Gurdwars and Takhats form the Brahminised Mahants. Arur  Singh was a SARKAREE Jathedar who gave a siropa to Gen Odwayer of Jallinawalh Bagh !!!


----------



## jasbirkaleka (Mar 31, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
I know who Arur Singh was[maternal-grandfather of Simranjit Singh Mann] and what he did.But the fact still remains that it was in 1905,whan he was the manager or Sarbrah, as he were called at the time,that the idols were removed from the Golden Temple.
In 1905 King Abdur Rahman of Afghanistan also dismissed an appeal by Hindus for keeping idols in Gurdwara Hari Rai in Kabul.
Singh Sabha was a revivalist movement aiming at restoring Sikhism to its pristine purity.
Prof.Gurmukh Singh was one of the most active members, who, in July and August 1886, wrote against idol-worship and other Brahaminical practices at GoldenTemple.But  the pujaries and some Bedi,Bawa,Bhalla and Sodhi proteges ganged-up against him and had him ex-communicated by a hukamnamah from the Akal Takhat on March 18,1887.
 But the Singh Sabha movement got stronger and stronger and it also started constructing their own Gurdwaras.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 31, 2010)

Jasbir Kela Ji,
You are absolutley right about Arur Singh and the 1905 date....but he certainly didnt get up one fine morning and decide to...throw the Hindu idols out the window..becasue he felt the glow of sikhi/gurmatt/gurbani in his heart or anything like that...
The Story begins in 1872 when Baba Khem Singh bedi, kanwar Bikram Singh of Kapurtahla Sate, Giani Ditt Singh,Giani Sardul Singh etc etc met in Guru ka Bagh Amritsar to found the Sri Guru Singh Sabha to fight the Hindu "ghuspaeth" (infiltration) of Sikh institutions, religious rituals etc etc....and this began the Movement called the Singh Sabha Lehr. Giani Ditt Singh and Prof Gurmukh Singh who was active in the LAHORE Singh Sabha were BOTH EXCOMMUNICATED by the Pujarees of Akal Takhat/Harmandar sahib as the pujarees begin to feel the heat of the Singh Sabha Lehr Movement.
IT took this Movement 23 years to force ARUR SINGH to do what he did..becasue he basically had no other choice...His true colours vis  avis Sikh Tenets are shown by his siropa award to gen Dyer of Jallinwallah bagh Massacre.

That was my point about bringing in the Singh Sabha Movement. Readers can read the account of thsi epiosde in full in Sangat Singh's Sikhs in History the 2005 edition.


----------



## jasbirkaleka (Mar 31, 2010)

Yes, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
I have read the book, Sikhs in History by Sangst Singh, where he also mentions Baba Khem Singh Bedi ,who,even in 1890s persisted in his efforts to get recognised as  the fifteenth Guru of the Sikhs.
He also wanted a seat with cushions in the Darbar Sahib.
In 1910  Baba Gurbakhash Singh Bedi,[son of Khem Singh Bedi] asserted in his presidential adress of Punjab Hindu Conference asserted that Sikhs are Hindus.This was condemmed  in very strong terms by the Sikhs.


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2010)

The Bedi/Sodhi axis of influence during that period in Sikh history is the same group that would have us think that at its best Bacchitar Natak is the true story of the life and lineage of Nanak X, and at its least sheds valuable information on Sikh history. Is it a coincidence that the timeframe you are discussing of 1873 through 1905 coincides with the round-up of 32 mismatched versions of the so-called Dasam Granth, later to be published in 1902/3 as the genuine article?

Sir Khem Singh Bedi was not excommunicated wherease Gurmukh Singh was dealt that blow. 

Some of this story told at this link where Khem Singh Bedi is arguably the first in his lineage to undermine both Singh Saba and the teachings of Guru Nanak. Please correct any misunderstandings on my part. The link

http://{censored}/news.php?news=8445

Sir Khem Singh Bedi claimed to a decendant of Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and  thus to be the 15th Sikh Guru. He was a tout of the British and had  been bribed by them to undermine the Gurdwara Sudar Lehar and Singh  Sabbha Movement.

The Arya Samaj also used him to strengthen the Bipren Ki Reet in the  Gurdwaras and thus to Hindunise Sikhi .He used to openly preach that  Sikhs were Hindus.He claimed that the Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is  the fifth veda of the Hindus which provides the essence of Purans and  Upanishads.In fact the RSS and Sanatani influences in the various Dehras  owe their origins to KEMU RAM  as Sikhs used to call him with distain.

He was immensely disliked by the Khalsa Panth, but on the back of the  finances from the Arya Samaj, he set up a Sodak Committee in 1897 of his  hand picked people ,to consolidate 32 wildly different versions of the  Bachitar Natak which had been introduced into Panjab from Bengal via the  Nirmalas between 1875 and 1900. he was largely unsuccessful in this  Endeavour but was successful in introducing very many Hindu texts and  traditions into various dehras .He died a very distraught man from  painful illness.His palace built from ill gotten gains now lies in ruins  near Rawalpindi in Pakistan.A fitting leagacy to the evil that he  represented.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Mar 31, 2010)

If I am not mistaken, the descendants of Khem Singh Bedi settled in Ferozepore after the partition and started raking money with some Pothi which they claimed belonged to Guru Nanak Dev ji. The elder Bedi ( his name slipped my mind) used to call himself Guru. They used to arrange big festivals when throngs of people used to show up to have the 'darshan' of his Pothi in exchange for money.

There are also Sodhis in Ferozepore and Guruharshai who also call themselves Gurus and claim to be descendants of Prithvi Chand also have a Pothi and rake money in the simillar fashion.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 1, 2010)

Yes you are all right about this Baba Khem Singh Bedi....and his so called right to be called Guru, special seating arrangements in Darbar sahib, the main person behind the present BNG (bachittar natak granth) beign morphed into DG and his enemity with the Singh Sabha.
But he was one of the Founders of the Singh Sabha cannot be denied...maybe he was inside so that he could sabotage it..as events proved later when Prof Gurmukh singh and Gyani Ditt singh etc were exceommunicated in an attempt to throttle the newly emerging Lehr...BUT that didnt happen..and the Singh Sabha Lehr became a FLOOD that washed away all and sundry in its path..fake gurus like  SIR khem singh bedi, corrupt mahants, Arur singh types of Jathedars ( who tried to impress his sikhi credentials by doing the obvious..throw out the hindu idols before the singhs threw them out anyway)...etc etc and the SGPC/SAD came into being.

2. BTW the Kartar Puri Bir is in SODHI hands at Kartarpur. Its private property. This Bir is widely supposed to be the Original Pothi Sahib penned by Bhai Gurdas and dictated by Guru Arjun Ji - the AAD Granth. The Present SGGS printed are all copies of a DAMDAMI BIR which was penned by Bhai mani Singh Ji  and dictated by Guru Gobind Singh ji at Damdam sahib Sabo ki Talwandi. No one knows the whereabouts of the Original Damdamai SGGS bir...( beleived lost in the wadda Ghallughara where almost 90% of the Sikhs were wiped out)


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2010)

Gyani ji -- This is the same take that I have on it.




Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Yes you are all right about this Baba Khem Singh Bedi....and his so called right to be called Guru, special seating arrangements in Darbar sahib, the main person behind the present BNG (bachittar natak granth) beign morphed into DG and his enemity with the Singh Sabha.
> 
> Yes, one of his infamous contributions, Bachittar Natak granth. Because it serves to "validate" the Divine ancestry of the Bedi family.
> 
> ...


----------



## Taranjeet singh (Apr 1, 2010)

jasbirkaleka said:


> :seriousmunda: Yes,Gyani ji,I  fully agree with you. But the big question is, what can be done to bring  Sikhi  back to its pristine purity, as given to us by  Guru Nanak Dev. We cannot depend upon the Golak-chors and so-called Babas and Sants, because these are the very people responsible for the abyssal state we find Sikhism today.



Dear Jasbir ji,

The change has to be quick and spontaneous. Any further delay shall do more harm to sikhi.

1. Babas are already there in the field to take-over the gullible masses of Punjab.

2.I agree with Gyani ji that we should first educate ourself. In our present day Gurudwaras there is no system of making us understand Guru Granth Sahib and the meaning of the verses/hymns/shabad.An effort is required to organize some sort of programs where the important aspects of sikhism are taught in the backdrop of SGGS. These may be small workshops in Gurudwaras. Entire sangat would be benefited.Bani is not simple to understand.For a person like me it has taken about three years or so and still I feel that I have not learnt anything except concept. It could have been better if it was introduced when I was young.

3.There is a need of development of standard study material for understanding the Gurbani. 

4.SGPC can take the initiative as it must have many theologians at its disposal.

Local Gurudwaras can take up this job. Gurbani is very precious for the humanity. Its value would be known as we progress further into the materialism. The advice and teachings of Guru Sahibs shall always remain valid till the humanity exists. Gurbani has to be lived through. 

Thanks and Regards!


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Apr 2, 2010)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Dear Jasbir ji,
> 
> The change has to be quick and spontaneous. Any further delay shall do more harm to sikhi.
> 
> ...



Taranjeet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said!

No body could have expressed these important things better.

Thanks for doing it.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Taranjeet singh (Apr 2, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Taranjeet Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Respected Sir,

I am really humbled by your generous comments.
Kindly keep me in the fold of  your Love and Blessings.

Deep Regards!


----------



## harbansj24 (Apr 3, 2010)

Gyaniji,

While there may be many "sants" and "babas"who are goluk chors and persons with deviant behaviour, the situation may not be that bleak and there may be light at the end of dark tunnel. 
If you look around you will find several Gursikhs (who are also called Sants and Babas by some) whose main activity is to "Aap japey awre Naam japave" or "koi jan har sio deve jor". There are also many professionals who who after doing day long "kirit" devote  some time in propagation of Naam without any ulterior motives.
It is also gratifying to see many youthful kathavachaks these days at Gurudwara Bangla Sahib who talk rationally and totally discourage belief in miracles or superstition.


----------



## arshi (Apr 4, 2010)

Harbans Singh ji wrote “_If you look around you will find several Gursikhs (who are also called Sants and Babas by some) whose main activity is to "Aap japey awre Naam japave" or "koi jan har sio deve jor". There are also many professionals who after doing day long "kirit" devote some time in propagation of Naam without any ulterior motives”_

<?"urn:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




</o>Gurfateh and well said Harbans Singh ji, precisely my sentiments. The quote ‘what is in a name’ may be appropriate here.


If I may, I would like to share an anecdote from my personal life. In 1951, in Nairobi, Kenya, when I was in Standard 4, my first experience of education in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region>, having done the first three standards in <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab we had a young teacher, with a great sense of humour, who loved music and dramatics. One day he asked us to sing a song – not defining the subject matter - and that the one who sings most would receive his special appreciation. He himself stated off with a popular film song sung by Mukesh. Being fresh from village life in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">India</st1:country-region>, I knew a string of folk and devotional songs and entertained the class for the rest of the period. The teacher was so impressed that he conferred upon me the pseudonym of ‘Ragi’ and ever since very few knew my real name. Even today, my close friends refer to me as ‘Ragi’, even though I adopted the new nom de plume ‘Arshi’ way back in the late fifties when I, briefly, sang on the Voice of Kenya.


The point is that some titles are easily (and sometimes ‘accidentally’) conferred on people but we ought to look beyond the title into the work of the individual. I remember a Sikh High Court judge in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> who in the early seventies said that we Sikhs are very casual about conferring titles. We refer to a person as a Granthi if he (she) knows the Gurmukhi ‘painty’ and is able to read from SGGS. Anyone one who can also do a little interpretation is referred to as a Gyani and as soon as people start touching his feet he gets to be known as a sant. *As a result there are many self-proclaimed sants and babas and we must be very wary of them and they can always be identified by the ritualism they promote and practice. *


*However, there are a precious few who received the title without wishing for it and who live their lives based on the three cornerstones of naam japo, kirat karo* *and wand shako* (mediate on the Supreme Truth, earn by your own honest toil and share your rewards with others). Meditation means constantly reflecting on the teachings of SGGS and adopting these to give us a sense of direction and encourage us to make a positive contribution to the society we live in. We must also share the rewards of our efforts and wisdom with those around us. Such precious individuals who live by example are extremely sp{censored} and often difficult to recognise since to acknowledge them we must have the ‘inner eye’ or Guru Grace. Many such great souls prefer to remain _‘gupt’_ (anonymous) whilst some for our benefit are revealed by His Grace.


Goodwill and Peace to all

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


----------



## Taranjeet singh (Apr 5, 2010)

Respected Jasbeer ji and and Members,  

To respond to the  question the following material is posted for your kind perusal and the advice of members. I do admit your observation that no emancipations can take place by ritual path only. I would humbly agree with Jasbir ji for his next observation that we may have some illusion about something magical happening with these baths or undertaking of these baths and that may not be the case and that we are falling to the trap of Hindu’s practices.

It is to state very humbly that the Sarovars adds to aesthetics and improves ambiance of the place esp. of Harmandir sahib. The bath at sarovars, if taken purely for love to a place, shall not be strictly speaking be a ritual though. It is subjective choice and may be love of Guru only else that baths just act that may result in  puffing  up our ego of the individuals doing so.

Gurus have told specifically:

·	You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord.[33-8 M-3]

The Sikhism rejects rituals and superstitions and *this feature of Sikhism *is in fact the identification of Sikhism as a separate religion and this can be called as one of the prominent feature of Sikhism that differentiates it from the Hinduism. This fact makes it a distinct religion and is oft quoted in the literature and is well accepted by the theologians of both sides i.e. Hindus and Sikhs. 

Sikhism rejects the worshipping of idols; it also rejects any kinds of fasts that are observed by our Hindu friends. There is no place of self-proclaimed Babas and Deras. Perfroming any sort of deeds would amount to:


·	Performing all sorts of rituals, people are smeared with twice as much filth. [39-7]

However with the flow of time some practices that got crystallized in particular Gurudwaras are observed by them Gurudwaras as a routine and that in my humble opinion is well within the fringes of ‘rituals’. An allusion may be made to the Gurudwara at Nanded Sahib where Aarti is performed almost  the way adopted by our Hindu brothers. However, strictly speaking, there is no place for such a kind of practice as well in Sikhism. It is more out of the continuity of the ongoing conventions and sentimental attachment to those conventions that the Gurudwara finds itself trapped into without any reason and justification beyond. But the we have clear instructions:

·	they may be ascetics, great, self-disciplined Yogis; they may visit sacred shrines of pilgrimage and perform the six ceremonial rituals, over and over again, performing worship services and ritual bathings. Even so, if they have not embraced love for the Supreme Lord God, then they shall surely go to hell.[ang 70: M:5]

Like wise superstition, originated from ignorance, has no place in Sikhism. There is a prohibition of certain practices as per the Rehat of Sikhs. Sikhs do not believe in the caste system either and that some of us do follow is on account of out folly and is the direct outcome of the inflated egos of the individuals. As a matter of panthic approach it is also discarded. It is for us to get out of it. The sooner it is the better it would be for the entire community. 

Another area that is infested with the rituals is the way in which the marriages are performed by the sikhs.The marriage system is also based upon some type of caste system. An ‘Arora’ may like to marry in ‘Arora’ and likewise a ‘khatri’ would prefer to marry a ‘Khatri’ A ‘Ramgharia’ would also prefer to marry among  ‘Ramgaria’ It is not possible to enlist the basis of classification that Sikhs have found for themselves.’ Jat’ is also considered as a separate community and special names have been coined for representing these types of classes. Sikhs are putting themselves into traps and no one else is responsible. This can be checked from the matrimonial columns of any Indian newspapers and even the Internet sites like shadi.com etc. That we are in this situation is most regrettable. 

We have to find a solution for this. An inter linked social problem that has also not left Sikhs unbruised is the *dowry system *that has come into vogue with full force. The problem is more acute in affluent sikh families where there is a strong presumption of a weighty dowry from the Girl side. This has lead to very unpleasant results that are before us. 

The following part of the* Rehat* deals with various aspects of rituals and reproduced here to make the post self contained and general reference when the need so arise.

*Chapter 10*
*Article XVI*

Clause (d) Not believing in *cast or descent*, untouched ability, magic, spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of start, horoscopic dispositions, shradh (ritual serving of food to priests for the salvation of ancestors on appointed days as per the lunar calendar), ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of the death of an ancestor), pind (offering of funeral barley cakes to the deceased’s relatives), patal (ritual donation of food in the belief that that would satisfy the hunger of the departed soul), diva (the ceremony of keeping an oil lamp lit for 360 days after the death, in the belief that that lights the path of the deceased), ritual funeral acts, hom (lighting of ritual fire and pouring intermittently clarified butter, food grains etc. into it for propitiating gods for the fulfillment of a purpose) jag (religious ceremony involving presentation of oblations), tarpan (libation), sikha-sut (keeping a tuft of hair on the head and wearing thread), bhadan (shaving of head on the death of a parent), fasting on new or full moon or other days, wearing of frontal marks on the forehead, wearing thread, wearing of a necklace of the pieces of tulsi stalk [A plant with medicinal properties], veneration of any graves, of monuments erected to honour the memory of a deceased person or of cremation sites, idolatry and such like superstitious observances. [Most, though not all rituals and ritual or religious observances listed in this clause are Hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continued to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to the new faith and a large bulk of the Sikh novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle-hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus secular and religious life which the Brahmin priest managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromise. That the Sikh novitiates include a sizable number of Muslims is shown by inclusion in this clause of the taboos as to the sanctity of graves, shirni, etc.]

Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any place other than the Guru’s place - such, for instance, as sacred spots or places of pilgrimage of other faiths.
Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri (Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun), the Gita, the Quran, the Bible, etc.. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.

In the end as a concluding remark :we should all try to inculcate the values as edicted by Guru sahibs and tread the path as advised and not get involved in to the rituals that are against the sikh tenets. 

With Regards.
E&OE.


----------



## findingmyway (Dec 19, 2010)

Wonderful thread!!

Page 4 in Japji

ਭਰੀਐ ਹਥੁ ਪੈਰੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਹ ॥
bhareeai hathh pair than dhaeh ||
भरीऐ हथु पैरु तनु देह ॥
*When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty,*



ਪਾਣੀ ਧੋਤੈ ਉਤਰਸੁ ਖੇਹ ॥
paanee dhhothai outharas khaeh ||
पाणी धोतै उतरसु खेह ॥
*water can wash away the dirt.*



ਮੂਤ ਪਲੀਤੀ ਕਪੜੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
mooth paleethee kaparr hoe ||
मूत पलीती कपड़ु होइ ॥
*When the clothes are soiled and stained,*



ਦੇ ਸਾਬੂਣੁ ਲਈਐ ਓਹੁ ਧੋਇ ॥
dhae saaboon leeai ouhu dhhoe ||
दे साबूणु लईऐ ओहु धोइ ॥
*soap can wash them clean.*



ਭਰੀਐ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ॥
bhareeai math paapaa kai sang ||
भरीऐ मति पापा कै संगि ॥
*But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,*



ਓਹੁ ਧੋਪੈ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ॥
ouhu dhhopai naavai kai rang ||
ओहु धोपै नावै कै रंगि ॥
*it can only be cleansed by the Love of Bani.*



ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
punnee paapee aakhan naahi ||
पुंनी पापी आखणु नाहि ॥
Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;



ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ ॥
kar kar karanaa likh lai jaahu ||
करि करि करणा लिखि लै जाहु ॥
actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul.



ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ ॥
aapae beej aapae hee khaahu ||
आपे बीजि आपे ही खाहु ॥
You shall harvest what you plant.


ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੨੦॥
naanak hukamee aavahu jaahu ||20||
नानक हुकमी आवहु जाहु ॥२०॥
O Nanak, by the Hukam of God's Command, we come and go in rebirth. ||20||


----------



## Ambarsaria (Feb 3, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Jasbir Ji..
> MY answer would be..EDUCATION.
> Parents study the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...vichaar...and ADAPT their daily lives accordingly..
> EDUCATE YOURSELF...then EDUCATE your children...impart the solid foundation of Gurbani...vichaar...following its teachings....and the next genration at least is safe form these Babas and chors....SPN is one such SCHOOL of EDUCATION !!:happykaur::happysingh::thumbsuppp::thumbsupp:


Sorry to revive an old thread.  

Some thoughts with GuruGranth Darpan of Professor Sahib Singh ji, and a feeble attempt by me to translate the essence per the understanding provided by Professor Sahib.YouTube        - Bhai Surinder Singh Jodhpuri - Ramdas Sarovar Naate
(*Note: * In the above video the right most person I believe is Bhai Sukhdev Singh from Amritsar who has his own Hajuri Jatha now and is a wonderful Raagi.)​<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  
pdArQ:- rwmdws srovir—rwm dy dwsW dy srovr ivc, swD sMgiq ivc ijQy nwm-jl dw pRvwh c`ldw hY [ nwqy—nHwqy [ siB—swry [ kmwqy—kmwey hoey, kIqy hoey [ kir—kr ky [ guir—gurU ny [ dwnw—b^SS [1[ siB—swry [ kusl Kym—suK Awnμd [ pRiB—pRBU ny [ siB Qok—swrIAW cIzW, Awqmk jIvn dy swry gux [ aubwry—bcw ley [ bIcwry—bIcwir, ivcwr ky, soc-mMfl ivc itkw ky [rhwau[


 swD sMig—swD sMgiq ivc [ mlu—ivkwrW dI mYl [ swQI—shweI [ purK—srb-ivAwpk
[2[ 



ArQ:- hy BweI! ijs mnu`K ny gurU dy Sbd ƒ AwpxI soc-mMfl ivc itkw ky Awqmk jIvn dy swry gux (ivkwrW dy Fhy cVHn qoN) TIk-Twk bcw ley, pRBU ny (aus dy ihrdy ivc) swry Awqmk suK Awnμd pYdw kr id`qy [rhwau[


*Translation:
*_*Hai Sikh*_*, a person who studies gurbani and has protected their good values, God creates bliss in their soul.*




 hy BweI! jyhVy mnu`K rwm dy dwsW dy srovr ivc (swD sMgiq ivc nwm-AMimRq nwl) ieSnwn krdy hn, auhnW dy (ipCly) kIqy hoey swry pwp lih jWdy hn [ (hir-nwm-jl nwl) ieSnwn kr ky auh pivqR jIvn vwly ho jWdy hn [ pr ieh b^SS pUry gurU ny hI kIqI huMdI hY [1[

*Translation:
*_*Hai Sikh*_*, the people who wash themselves in the ether of God’s servants in study of gurbani, their previous malice disappears.  With this washing in the water of Gurbani, you become pure.  But this blessing is also provided by God.*​<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->      <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ansi-language:#0400; 	mso-fareast-language:#0400; 	mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
hy BweI! swD sMgiq ivc (itikAW) ivkwrW dI mYl dUr ho jWdI hY, (swD sMgiq dI brkiq nwl) prmwqmw mddgwr bx jWdw hY [ hy nwnk! (ijs mnu`K ny rwmdws-srovr ivc Aw ky) prmwqmw dw nwm ismirAw, aus ny aus pRBU ƒ l`B ilAw jo sB dw mu`F hY Aqy jo srbivAwpk hY [2[1[65[
not—ieQoN ‘Gru 3’ dy Sbd do bMdW vwly SurU hoey hn [ du-pdy—do bMdW vwly [

*Translation**:*
*Hai Sikh,  in unison with the congregation you remove the dirt of vices and God becomes of help.  Hai Nanak, the person who studied God in Gurbani, he discovers the God , the source and creator of all.*​I been to the Sarovar at Sri Harmindar Sahib ji since from childhood.  Just now starting to realize some of the essence.


Sat Sri Akal.


*PS*:  _There are multiple functional reasons for a sarovar but this should not be traded with spirituality of Gurbani versus literal parchar.  Some functional aspects include,_



Moderating the climate around the central domed Sri Harmanid Sahib ji
For people with little or no access to water for a bath in those days a common place
Medically such places provided body immunity enhancement (not suitable for today's AC driven generation)
etc.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 3, 2011)

Ambarsariah Ji,
in my opinion you have done a good job of getting the essence of prof Sahib Singh Jis explanation of this shabad..while the "authorities" at SGPC/Akal takhat that control the shrine at Amrtisar have FAILED to do as they stick with the traditional RITUALISED BATH to remove SINS..via signboards placed there and their kathas done at Manji sahib.

1. If we take the Hindus..ALL thr RITUALS they perform are SANCTIONED by their Holy Books..Veds and Purans and Mannus simrtees and thus following all those rituals makes them BETTER STAUNCH HINDUS.
BUT for SIKHS..ALL these Rituals are not only actively DISCOURAGED..some are CONDEMNED outright in GURBANI..time and again by various Guru sahibs and bhagats as well. SO all sikhs who perform rituals are GOING AGAINST the SGGS, and Gurbani and thus are WORSE SIKHS for that....yet many many sikhs continue to do that without even understanding what sggs says...bhed chaal condoned  nay actively ENCOURAGED by vested interests for Goluk purposes....


----------

