# Do We Sikhs Have Too Much Arrogance?



## SS0606 (Apr 8, 2007)

Firstly I would like to explain that my dad is Sikh and mum is Hindu and so I associate with people of both religions but mostly Sikh. I can honestly say that I go to Gurdwara more than I go to Mandir and consider myself a Sikh and to be honest, my mum has never reinforced me to go Mandir, it was always entirely up to me. 

I have a very close Hindu Punjabi friend. She is the only Hindu in our group of friends, but because she is Hindu PUNJABI she never felt out of place and we never treated her differently. Well so I thought....

Her family recently had a havan at the local Mandir and I went, once I got there I realised I was the only person (Sikh person) from our friend group there. I asked my friend where everyone else was and her answer to me was 'I don't think they like the idea of coming to the Mandir' I was quite offended by what she said, but when I rang my friends after the havan to my suprise she was right! They made comments like 'what are we gonna do at the temple with stupid brahmins praying around fire' 

It made me quite angry, because whenever any of us have had a Kirtan at the Gurdwara she always makes the effort to come and sits throughout the paat. She has enough respect to come and show us that she cares. I felt as if my friends had given Sikhs a bad name. It was completely disrespectful. 

To add to the disrespect - as we know Vaisakhi is round the corner, each year we ask my Hindu friend to come to the Nagar Kirtan with us and she always would. She would participate equally, do seva, keep her head covered things which are essential and things which even our young SIKHS don't do at the Kirtan and just come for a joke and laugh to meet friends. This weekend one of my friends said to her 'Why are you comming? You're not even Sikh' and now for that reason she said she isn't going to come. 

Whatever she did was out of respect and I feel as if we have thrown it in her face and said we don't want it! My mum is Hindu, she goes to Gurdwara with my grandma every Sunday and my Grandma will probably go twice a year if that. 

It suprises me because Sikhism teaches us to respect other religions! I wish I could say that maybe it is just the younger generation but then where do they learn this from? 

Is this arrogance? To me it looks like school kids argueing about who's painting is better apart from in this case it's who's religion is better? 


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## Prit paul kaur (Apr 8, 2007)

No we are not arrogant! Some of us are immature or they donot know how to behave in such situations.May be  they were never invited before to visit to mandir or they may have heard so much negative about mandir.I donot know why your friends have behaved that way but they have lost the opportunity to learn something new.
Faith-Religion is something internal related to human subjectivity.You can visit to the religious place of any other community and respect any other religion.It will no way affect your own faith or religion.


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## kds1980 (Apr 10, 2007)

dear ss0606

from 2 past years i am regularly participating in sikh discussion forums and what my experiance from these discussions is that sikhs living outside india are becoming intolerant of other religions especially of hinduism,mainly because of events of 80s.they even mock hindu rituals and practices and if in retaliation hindu's attack sikh practices then they feel offended.

what happened with your hindu friend is wrong and i think you should stand for her .


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## sachchasoda (Apr 10, 2007)

we must love and respect all. 

avaall allah noor upaeaa kudrat ke sabh bande
ek noor te sabh jag upjeaa kon bhalai kon mande.---

if we call ourselves Sikhs, we must obey our Guru

Avil Alh nUru aupwieAw kudriq ky sB bMdy ]
eyk nUr qy sBu jgu aupijAw kaun Bly ko mMdy ]1]
logw Brim n BUlhu BweI ]
Kwilku Klk Klk mih Kwilku pUir rihE sRb TWeI ]1] rhwau ]
mwtI eyk Anyk BWiq kir swjI swjnhwrY ]
nw kCu poc mwtI ky BWfy nw kCu poc kuMBwrY ]2]
sB mih scw eyko soeI iqs kw kIAw sBu kCu hoeI ]
hukmu pCwnY su eyko jwnY bMdw khIAY soeI ]3]
Alhu AlKu n jweI liKAw guir guVu dInw mITw ]
kih kbIr myrI sMkw nwsI srb inrMjnu fITw ]4]


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 10, 2007)

I have been to Hindu mandirs, Christian churches, Jewish synagogues and Muslim mosques. As a Sikh, why would I go back to those places of worship knowing it was not for me? Such things only breed confusion. We should not mix traditions or religious paths. Tolerance is shown in not trying to convert anybody, or disrespecting anybody's free choice. *It is not tolerance to participate with other faiths in their worship and rituals.* The reason _you_ visit Hindu mandir and Gurudwara equally is because thats within your family.

While it is a kind invitation and intended with friendliness, to accept would be innapropriate. First, for a Hindu, nothing in a Gurudwara would offend the Hindu faith. However, to go to a mandir dedicated worship of plural gods and idols and ritualistic practices is not a part of Sikhi. All places of worship should be shown utmost respect because Akal Purakh is in those places. Nothing should be mocked or disrespected, neither should it be accepted and agreed with. Can you join in singing bhajan kirtan to Hanuman and Durga ma? Should you eat parshad offered to idols? For what purpose are you there?

Taking this example of tolerance to another level, what would be wrong in visiting a Muslim mosque? Or attending Muslim events, such as debates or teaching of Quran with a Muslim friend? Is it tolerance to mix in like this? Or does it expose someone to influences which don't blend in with Sikhi? The Gurudwara is open to all faiths without expectation of conversion. But all faiths want to subsume Sikhi within the umbrella of their fold. Muslims and Christians want conversion. Hindu's consider Sikhi a sect of Hinduism. 

To visit a Hindu mandir as a Sikh is to be honoring the gods of that mandir. If you have a friend and she likes to participate in Sikh events, well and good. But why is part of being her friend involving Sikhs in Hindu practices and worship? What are you going to do in that mandir? Stand there and refuse everything as "not a Hindu?" Or participate as "not a Sikh?" Now if it is a wedding invitation of a friend or something, that is different. Otherwise, it's simply an invitation to participate in Hindu way of worship. While this path has a lot of beauty and wisdom within it, the path is a valid path for Hindus but Sikhs do not belong there at all. You should correct your friends for their disrespect, but not badger them into going. Perhaps they can apologize to her for any bad comments and gently explain why they cannot go. Then it is up to her to accept or not.






*Why would a Sikh be in this Temple?*


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## simpy (Apr 10, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*


*when you have friends from all over the world and from many religious beliefs, it is not easy to skip their religious functions. i take it as an opportunity to know what they do in their ceremonies. sometimes it is totally opposite to what my beliefs are, does it matter-not to me. *

*just being there does not take anything away from me. if you are always engrossed in NaamSimran, nothing can effect you negatively. i never participate, but always aware of what they doing and simply watch them performing their rituals. *

*i can understand it is hard for some people, i am married to one who cannot tolerate this. and i respect that, if you cannot do this without getting angry or feeling awkward; simply avoid this kind of situation.*

*but for me this kind of social behavior has brought many of our friends(from other faiths) to attend our religious functions, and many of them are always borrowing books from me to read about Sikhism. lots of my friends and my kid's friends are already learning Gurbani. *


*forgive me please*


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## Boota (Apr 17, 2007)

You have to look at the situation in the round.  The fact is that we are not arrogant enough.  We are allowing ourselves to be immersed into another religion without even putting up a fight.  Our forefathers would be ashamed of us.  What is happening to Sikhi where we think more of other faiths than we do of our own?  What do the Sikh youngsters know about their faith and what is happening to them?

There is concerted, organised effort going on to by groups to eventually ‘hijack’ Sikhism and streamline it into mainstream Hinduism.  You can see it gradually unfolding before your eyes.

It is time to go back to basics and learn what is the real meaning of Sikhism and why it came into existence.


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## SS0606 (Apr 17, 2007)

Dear Boota ji 

I completely agree that youngsters in my age group have little or even no knowlegde of Sikhism but that still doesn't give us the right to criticise other religions. When my Hindu friend comes to gurdwara she receited what the rest of the sangat would be saying as well. If you were to go to a mandir would you sing along to the artis they sing? 

As Surinder Kaur Cheema ji pointed out just being at another religious place of worship, it doesn't take away the fact that one is a Sikh. She also pointed out that if you are always engrossed in Naam Simran, nothing can effect you negatively. 

I understand that going to a mandir and joining in with the paat they do is out of the question (or any other religious place). What my point is, is that we should go out of respect and especially if the person who invites us, respects us as Sikhs and come to Gurdwara.


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## Boota (Apr 17, 2007)

SS0606 said:


> Dear Boota ji
> 
> I completely agree that youngsters in my age group have little or even no knowlegde of Sikhism but that still doesn't give us the right to criticise other religions. When my Hindu friend comes to gurdwara she receited what the rest of the sangat would be saying as well. If you were to go to a mandir would you sing along to the artis they sing?
> 
> ...


 
I agree with all of that of course.

The key is determining if someones is inviting you with respect or whether there are ulterior motives.  My point is that there is a great deal of the latter going on.  It is not a question of disrespecting other religions, but of self-preservation.


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## ISDhillon (Apr 17, 2007)

I have hindu freinds too, when they go to the gurdwara they criticise pictures of 84 shaheeds, this makes me not want to go to the mandir as I see it as an insult to go to a place with people who dishonour the dead that I respect, sometimes its just best to listen to youre instinct, this is not ego, its self-preservation, would you rather I sit amongst a people that offend those I care about?


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## Rubicon (Apr 17, 2007)

Interesting thread to read.  I appreciate the opportunity to have a glimpse of other points of view.  Thanks you for that.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 17, 2007)

> As Surinder Kaur Cheema ji pointed out just being at another religious place of worship, it doesn't take away the fact that one is a Sikh. She also pointed out that if you are always engrossed in Naam Simran, nothing can effect you negatively.


The average Sikh is nowhere near this level of spiritual jeevan, and thus he is completely vulnerable to sophisticated political agendas and negativity. While everyone has their individual choice, no Sikh should ever be shamed or badgered into attending a Hindu mandir or Muslim mosque or Christian church just because their friend likes to attend Gurudwara.


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## simpy (Apr 18, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*if we are at some place-leave alone what type religious or unreligious, if our mind is not accepting what is going around us and causing aggitation-WHAT IS THE USE TO BE THERE???*


*ARE WE ASKING OURSELVES-WHY OUR MIND GETS AGITATED??????*


*AND THEN WHAT TO DO TO BRING IT TO PEACE??????*


*DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI-every panna has the answer all over........*

*Do we want to listen to Guru Ji and then live accordingly????*

*-----again MIND has to accept the WORD-------*


*forgive me please*


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## sachchasoda (Apr 18, 2007)

suixAw mMinAw min kIqw Bwau ]
AMqrgiq qIriQ mil nwau ]
siB gux qyry mY nwhI koie ]
ivxu gux kIqy Bgiq n hoie ]

I am surprised we want nonSikhs to come to Gurdwara

they shouldn't feel awkward there-after being among those where most people are walking around with Kirpans!

We shouldn't go to their religious places because we have all the good reasons.
And Gurbani tells us-
rwmklI mhlw 5 ]
koeI bolY rwm rwm koeI Kudwie ]
koeI syvY guseIAw koeI Alwih ]1]
kwrx krx krIm ]
ikrpw Dwir rhIm ]1] rhwau ]
koeI nwvY qIriQ koeI hj jwie ]
koeI krY pUjw koeI isru invwie ]2]
koeI pVY byd koeI kqyb ]
koeI EFY nIl koeI supyd ]3]
koeI khY qurku koeI khY ihMdU ]
koeI bwCY iBsqu koeI surigMdU ]4]
khu nwnk ijin hukmu pCwqw ]
pRB swihb kw iqin Bydu jwqw ]5]



Alhu gYbu sgl Gt BIqir ihrdY lyhu ibcwrI ]
ihMdU qurk duhUM mih eykY khY kbIr pukwrI ]



BweI gurdws jI-

isv skqI noN swDkY cMd sUr idhu rwq sdwey]
suK duK swDy hrK sog nrk surg puMn pwp lµGwey]
jnm mrx jIvn mukiq Blw burw im`qR SqR invwey]
rwj jog ijx v`s kr swD sMjog ivjog rhwey]
vsgiq kIqI nINd BuK Awsw mnsw ijx Gr Awey]
ausqiq inµdw swD kY ihMdU muslmwn sbwey]
pYrIN pY pYKwk sdwey ]








			
				Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> *if we are at some place-leave alone what type religious or unreligious, if our mind is not accepting what is going around us and causing aggitation-WHAT IS THE USE TO BE THERE???*


 
this will be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999(9 even more 9999)% of this earth for most of us 
9999((getting furious))9999




			
				Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> no Sikh should ever be shamed or badgered into attending a Hindu mandir or Muslim mosque or Christian church just because their friend likes to attend Gurudwara.


 
Is being a friend is only limited to non-religious friendship. i dont think True friendship is limited to anything. We cannot call them our friends who are with us only on the basis of their or our RELIGIOUS CONDITIONS. This makes it a conditional friendship-matlab prastee. 

So you tell me, my friends father died, he was only 51 years old. My friend is a Christian. We both live together in the dorm, we eat together, we talk everyday for endless hours. Can I refrain myself from being with my best friend at this sad occassion of his life? Should I bring my religion/his religion in the way. DOESNT HE NEED ME AT THIS HOUR? Or should I start thinking -oops it is in a church, and tell him-sorry I cant come.
what a friendship!
Does Gurbani teach us this?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 18, 2007)

> Is being a friend is only limited to non-religious friendship. i dont think True friendship is limited to anything. We cannot call them our friends who are with us only on the basis of their or our RELIGIOUS CONDITIONS. This makes it a conditional friendship-matlab prastee.
> 
> So you tell me, my friends father died, he was only 51 years old. My friend is a Christian. We both live together in the dorm, we eat together, we talk everyday for endless hours. Can I refrain myself from being with my best friend at this sad occassion of his life? Should I bring my religion/his religion in the way. DOESNT HE NEED ME AT THIS HOUR? Or should I start thinking -oops it is in a church, and tell him-sorry I cant come.
> what a friendship!
> Does Gurbani teach us this?


I said in the above post that for special occasions like a wedding or something where you have a business to be there what could be at issue.  Tell me where Gurbani says Sikhs have to attend worship services of other religions to be friendly and accepting of people.  Just mixing it up with other religions is destructive.  Again I say, why should a Sikh, or anybody be BADGERED AND SHAMED into having to prove loyalty to a friend by having to attend worship services not of his own faith?  So he can stand there and not participate?  Or so he can become accustomed to the services and begin to participate?  What would be the point?  If it's liberalism and tolerance, then lets all go the the local Mosque and listen to classes on the spiritual supremacy of Islam where scholars will come to denounce Sikhi with well-planned arguments.  You don't see the danger, well thats okay.


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## sachchasoda (Apr 19, 2007)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I said in the above post that for special occasions like a wedding or something where you have a business to be there what could be at issue. Tell me where Gurbani says Sikhs have to attend worship services of other religions to be friendly and accepting of people. Just mixing it up with other religions is destructive. Again I say, why should a Sikh, or anybody be BADGERED AND SHAMED into having to prove loyalty to a friend by having to attend worship services not of his own faith? So he can stand there and not participate? Or so he can become accustomed to the services and begin to participate? What would be the point? If it's liberalism and tolerance, then lets all go the the local Mosque and listen to classes on the spiritual supremacy of Islam where scholars will come to denounce Sikhi with well-planned arguments. You don't see the danger, well thats okay.


 
Ji Harjas Ji I love it when you go to the extreme. I am not sure, sometimes i feel this from your posts- do you believe that Sikhs are superior than others?

Because all the arrogance you show could be from that type of thinking.
Guru ji want us to become SAGAL KI RENKA-dust of everybody's feet.

bhul chuk maaf karna


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## JtotheAtothe... (Apr 19, 2007)

We are all arrogant.

Everyone.

Regardless of religion.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 19, 2007)

> Ji Harjas Ji I love it when you go to the extreme. I am not sure, sometimes i feel this from your posts- do you believe that Sikhs are superior than others?
> 
> Because all the arrogance you show could be from that type of thinking.
> Guru ji want us to become SAGAL KI RENKA-dust of everybody's feet.


Thank you for your kind words. *Guruji DOES NOT want Sikhs to be the dust of the feet and trampled into nonexistence by missionaries of other religions. *

Do you see Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians mixing and diluting their traditions by absorbing influence of every other faith? No! Yet you are not calling Hindu's, Christians, Muslims or Buddhists arrogant...

only Sikhs are said to be arrogant, unspiritual, prideful who are not groveling at the feet to eat the dust of attacks by Hindutva missionaries, Muslim missionaries, Christian missionaries...This is kaliyug, not an era of respectful unity like satyug. In this era we must be guardians of our children's faith from relentless undermining. If we cannot be defenders of ourselves, we cannot be any kind of defender of the rights of anybody else.

NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED, BADGERED, SHAMED TO ATTEND WORSHIP SERVICES OR TEMPLE OF ANOTHER FAITH OUT OF *SELF-RESPECT*, *NOT ARROGANCE!* 

Sikhs need more SELF-RESPECT, more actual knowledge of Sikhi, especially the kids before they go out and indiscriminately absorb ideas and practices different from the teachings of their own faith. It's beyond arrogance to presume Sikhs have to grovel at the feet of the religious beliefs of others. No orthodox Jews in their right mind would visit a Buddhist temple or allow his kids to go. No orthodox Christian would even be seen in a Muslim Mosque. No Hindu joins in Christian celebrations or Muslim debates. WHY? Because they are avoiding missionaries who insist they degrade their own independant faiths and encourage their assimilation into the dominant faith. These religions all have self-respect and independant autonomy. Why dont we?

It is not "spiritual" to eat dust of the feet of assimilation.

Rashtri Sikh Sangat RSS Hinduization
Panthic Weekly: Hate Crimes Against Sikhs Eventually Recognized by Police
Christian Aggression - Sikh and Destroy
Panthic Weekly: Punjab – Missionary Zeal & Extremism


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## kds1980 (Apr 20, 2007)

> o you see Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians mixing and diluting their traditions by absorbing influence of every other faith? No! Yet you are not calling Hindu's, Christians, Muslims or Buddhists arrogant...



harjas kaur ji

its true for christianity and islam but for hinduism and buddhism its not true.there is a lot of influence of other religion on hinduism.millions of hindu's in india visit dargah's.similarly many hindu's also visit gurdwara's and some also visit churches
buddhism is also practiced in china ,japan and lanka in different ways with lot of influence of their native religion.

christian and muslims


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 20, 2007)

> but for hinduism and buddhism its not true.there is a lot of influence of other religion on hinduism.millions of hindu's in india visit dargah's.similarly many hindu's also visit gurdwara's and some also visit churches
> buddhism is also practiced in china ,japan and lanka in different ways with lot of influence of their native religion.


 Hindu's don't have missionaries? What is RSS-VHP? It's not Gurmat to allow assimilation and infiltration.



> Just like anyone can dress up like a policeman and commit crimes in its guise, likewise, it is just as easy for any Hindu propagandaist to adorn the roop of a Sikh and try to proove the Hindu-ness of Sikhs by doing Hindu things. The perfect example is the RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) which has began to create rifts into the Sikhs by founding a wing of their Sangh under the name of Rashtriya Sikh Sangat which does everything Hindu and denounces Sikh beliefs because the very mission of RSS is to promote their language (Hindi), rule of their faith (Hindu) and return India to the land of Hindus only (Hindustan).
> 
> Hum Hindu Nahin « The Inner Journey II


 






> Small Steps to Oblivion
> 
> The RSS recognizes that Hinduism is many hundreds of years old and it can slowly assimilate the Sikhs with time. By establishing links between Vishnu/Raam and the Gurus, they hope that Sikhs will see these Hindu gods as their own. With time, perhaps pictures of Raam and Vishnu will find their way into Gurdwaras. The RSS has commissioned paintings and posters that mix Hinduism and Sikhism and present Sikh figures receiving blessings from Hindu gods.
> 
> ...


 


> RSS 25 Point Plan for Assimilation of Sikhi
> 
> 1) Sikhs are an inseparable part of Hindu society.
> 2) If Hinduism is a tree, Sikhism is a fruit on that tree.
> ...







Distortion calculated to assimilate.


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## kds1980 (Apr 20, 2007)

harjas kaur ji

i am a middle class sikh living in india.and one thing i want to say is that rss itself has very limited support among hindu's.from past 60 years their political wing
bjp has tried to gain majority but each and every time they failed.they only formed
government in 1998 with support from other seculer parties.so calling each and every hindu as rss missionary is a joke.infact the main fight of rss is with muslims and christians.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 20, 2007)

> so calling each and every hindu as rss missionary is a joke.infact the main fight of rss is with muslims and christians.


It's a little more complex than that veerji. RSS was also involved in the anti-Sikh riots although prefers to blame this all on Congress party. But I never said every Hindu is an RSS missionary. I said there are valid reasons why Sikhs should not be mixing too much with other religions. It isn't Gurmat to assimilate with other religious teachings and practices.

The Indian government, the Punjab government definitely have an agenda of assimilating Sikhi. Maybe you're not as aware as you should be. RSS-BJP-VHP has limited support? Why are they in control of Punjab via CM Badal? Why are they in control of Uttar Pradesh? Why are they in control in Gujarat? 

Panthic Weekly: Reaction to Badal/BJP/RSS Victory in Punjab
Khaleej Times Online - The many faces of BJP=
http://www.indiaprwire.com/businessnews/20070420/22057.htm


> _"The Sikh community is fully cognizant that the same extremist Brahmanic forces that have attempted to annihilate the Sikh nation via actions such as 'Operation Bluestar' and the November 1984 Anti-Sikh Pogroms, are also the driving forces behind terrorist organizations such as the RSS. Where in the past few decades, the primary objective of these Brahmanic forces was the physical annihilation of the Sikh Nation; the RSS has now coordinated with them to destroy the fundamental institutions and core-principals of the Sikh religion through other means.
> 
> In January 2001, the RSS organization made plans of holding Akhand Paths of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in various Hindu temples throughout India but directives from Akal Takht Sahib banning their participation helped preserve the reverence of Guru Granth Sahib at that time.
> 
> Panthic Weekly: RSS Attempt to Infiltrate Panth using counterfeit Sikh organizations_


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## simpy (Apr 21, 2007)

*Respected Harjas Ji,*

*this is everywhere and all the time-*

*there are few who are against Sikhs.*

*please try to understand- ALL HINDUS ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE- they are just like us.*
*in india even in punjab- we all live together on the same street, our kids play together, even at occassions we spend days and days together.*
*in general masses there is no hatred.*

*these are political issues, these dirty polititians are polluting minds of the sensitive people.*

*One must  think rationaly. *
*i myself pactically lived through-84 and all that in punjab and Delhi- we cannot shut our eyes from the goodness of the masses- YOU THINK THAT GOVERNMENT COULD HAVE DONE THAT WITHOUT EMERGENCY CALLS AND CURFEWS- because no body would have let this happen at that scale-GOODNESS IS STILL THERE AND ALWAYS BE.*

*i am very busy today- i will wrie in more detail later.*

*PLEASE REMEMBER DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU TEGH BAHADAR JI GAVE HIS PRECIOUS LIFE TO SAVE THIS SAME HINDU RELIGION- SO HOW IT CAN BE BAD*

*forgive me please*


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## lovely_silky (Apr 21, 2007)

Sadh Sangat ji, 

every community has good and bad people, what if everybody equate each and every Sikh to a few bad Sikhs :hmm: ; should we all be answerable?

i think not


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 21, 2007)

> *please try to understand- ALL HINDUS ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE
> *


I never said Hindus are bad people, but I can assure you the average Hindu thinks our sangat is bad people. Hindu's may visit some Gurudwara's, but I doubt they would stay in a langar hall where they have darshan of 1984 shaheeds. I really thought I was promoting an understanding view of the girl's invitation and not want the kids to disrespect Hindu faith.





> The float has prompted the government of India to launch a diplomatic protest. (They ignore decades of torture and do this over one single picture in a float?)
> 
> Mr. Parmar, a militant Khalistani advocate, *has been identified in a B.C. court case as the alleged mastermind* behind a mid-air bomb explosion aboard an Air-India flight in 1985, en route from Canada to London. Born in Punjab and later made a Canadian citizen, *he was killed by police in India in 1992. *Dave Hayer, a Liberal MLA, said *people should not be allowed to organize events where alleged terrorists are glorified. *
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070419.NATS19-2/TPStory/TPNational/BritishColumbia/


What about the terror of the Indian Government? Shaheed Singh Parmar was identified as being the "_mastermind of a plot_" in which the principal participants WERE COMPLETELY EXONERATED. This is character assassination OF AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY! 


> *The Indian consulate in Vancouver is aware of the views of those who attend the Surrey temple and does not associate with their events*, Mr. Singh said. The diplomats however support events sponsored by the Vancouver temple.
> 
> "We know the difference," he said, adding that he thought that Canadian politicians should also be aware of the differences. *The politicians should know that the charitable status of the banned groups has been revoked and about the Khalistan issue,* he also said.
> *"All politicians must be aware of what is going on. They know about the Air-India disaster and what happened,"* Mr. Singh said.
> ...


The Khalistan issue? Why is he still blaming Sikhs for Air India when they have been *EXONERATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?* They probably have the Gurudwara wiretapped.








*Shadow over Sikh celebration* http://www.surreyleader.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=73&cat=23&id=&more=​







*Talwinder Singh Parmar, identified in the Air India bombing trial as the mastermind *
*behind the terrorist act, is pictured (third from right) on a float in Surrey’s Vaisakhi parade.*

See the scary pro-Khalistanis?



> *“This event has no place for terrorists, or criminal elements in there,” Hayer said Wednesday. “All political parties, and people from every government level should say ‘no person, regardless of what their religion is, regardless of what their colour is, should be carrying around in public, terrorists, or people who promote terrorism, or who kill Canadian citizens, (promoting them) as heroes.’ ” *
> 
> He said *if politicians don’t take a stand, “it will happen over and over again.”* Federal Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh was equally critical of the Parmar float. “We have our soldiers dying in Afghanistan to fight against terrorism, and *we can’t allow the promotion of that terrorism on Canadian soil with respect to another country,”* Dosanjh said Thursday. *“That kind of display of violence, essentially based on hate and anger, deserves the strongest denunciation from political leaders...” *​
> http://www.surreyleader.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=73&cat=23&id=966855&more=


Why are people always accusing us of hate and anger? What's with hating pictures of people who were tortured to death? They are so slippery with their words they keep calling us terrorists. Yet everyone in those pictures was someone that government of India killed. Someone who was fighting back because of all their killing and humiliation of Sikhs. They just want to create bad feeling and backlash of blame. They want us to be persecuted. 

Can you understand the reluctance to visit a Hindu mandir? What's the point to pressure anyone. It's not going to make these political realities go away. Hindus are not respecting us. Not even. And don't say it's just the politicians. It's everything. Do you know what I hear from Hindu's at work? I hear how India was justified to use all forms of force and torture to kill the "terrorists." Now stop talking to me about who thinks who is bad people. Thats just more propaganda.


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## simpy (Apr 21, 2007)

*Respected Harjas ji,*

*my effort is plainly to tell others -please don't feed hatred and krodh to yourself. It is not good.*


*this is plainly your own choice, we can only tell our fellow sikhs to follow Guru Ji's teaching- CANNOT FOLLOW IT FOR THEM.*

*plainly your choice. but every time this kind of hatred talk goes beyond limits, somebody has to speak up, unfortunately there are few of us who do so....*



> I never said Hindus are bad people, but I can assure you the average Hindu thinks our sangat is bad people. Hindu's may visit some Gurudwara's, but I doubt they would stay in a langar hall where they have darshan of 1984 shaheeds. I really thought I was promoting an understanding view of the girl's invitation and not want the kids to disrespect Hindu faith.


 
*may i ask you- have you ever lived among Hindus in India?*
*i guess never, even you are using-'may' in your statements. You are judging all Hindus from the statements made by a few people at work.*
*Please be real Harjas Ji. This is not truth. *


*And THE REALITY IS-A true Sikh promotes only LOVE, and always respond to the circumstances and debates, never reacts.*

*KRODH IS NOT GOOD- doesn't matter for whom it is.*

*let us concentrate on making ourself the way Guru Ji wants us to be-*

*PrIdw jo qY mwrin mukIAW iqn@w n mwry GuMim ]*
*AwpnVY Gir jweIAY pYr iqn@w dy cuMim ]*



*sUry eyih n AwKIAih AhMkwir mrih duKu pwvih ]*
*AMDy Awpu n pCwxnI dUjY pic jwvih ]*
*Aiq kroD isau lUJdy AgY ipCY duKu pwvih ]*
*hir jIau AhMkwru n BwveI vyd kUik suxwvih ]*
*AhMkwir muey sy ivgqI gey mir jnmih iPir Awvih ]*


*EAMkwr Akwr kr mKI iek aupweI mwXw]*
*iqMn loA cOdW Bvn jl Ql mhIAl Cl kr CwXw]*
*bRhmw ibSn mhyS qRY ds Avqwr bzwr ncwXw]*
*jqI sqI sMqoKIAW isD nQ bhu pMQ BvwXw]*
*kwm kroD ivroD ivc loB moh kr DRoh lVwXw]*
*haumY AMdr sBko syrhUM Gt n iknY AKwXw]*
*kwrx krqy Awp lukwXw ]*

*And i am surprised how you think that going to another place of worship just for a visit(on friends invitation) can effect our own faith in our religion- ARE WE THAT SHALLOW- i don't think a true Sikh can be that weak from inside that something can effect him or her this way.*

*forgive me please*


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## kds1980 (Apr 24, 2007)

> s a little more complex than that veerji. RSS was also involved in the anti-Sikh riots although prefers to blame this all on Congress party. But I never said every Hindu is an RSS missionary. I said there are valid reasons why Sikhs should not be mixing too much with other religions. It isn't Gurmat to assimilate with other religious teachings and practices.



guru gobind singh ji had 52 poets in his court and many of them were hindu's.was guru gobind ji afraid that the these assimilate sikhs into hinduism.i am not saying
that sikhs should start visiting other religious places but for the sake of their friends
of other religions their is nothing wrong going to these places.



> e Indian government, the Punjab government definitely have an agenda of assimilating Sikhi. Maybe you're not as aware as you should be. RSS-BJP-VHP has limited support? Why are they in control of Punjab via CM Badal? Why are they in control of Uttar Pradesh? Why are they in control in Gujarat?



religion is not the sole issue in life their are many other things in life on which people decide to whom to vote.the fact is badal has not captured power forcefully.people of punjab has voted him into power.if people of punjab feels that badal is good for them then there is nothing you and i could do.

and let me tell me tell you one thing rss is not in control of uttar pradesh though they are trying very hard to capture it.and gujarat is no.1 state in india in terms of development.people of india are now voting for development.our gurudwara's authorites have betrayed sikhs again.there are very few sikh colleges in india
and the condition of sikh schools are really pathetic


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 24, 2007)

> our gurudwara's authorites have betrayed sikhs again.there are very few sikh colleges in india and the condition of sikh schools are really pathetic


RSS is for development. And our Gurudwara's authorities and Sikh colleges are really pathetic...?

and you don't see this as the result of 20 plus years of genocidal oppression and slaughter of Sikh leaders in 1984? And followed by intensive campaign to infiltrate and dilute Sikh teachings, promote dissident Sikh scholars? Or promoting multitude of fake babas, sants, and dehdari gurus subsidizing them with state monies? Not to mention persecution and alienation of any sign of Sikh independance. What a policy. Murder Sikhs who have integrity by the hundreds of thousands. Buy off stooges afraid for their lives who will betray the Panth, even killing and assaulting their own for money (black cats). And then wonder why you have a new generation of corrupt officials. India didn't tolerate leaders with integrity, they destroyed them utterly. 

Thanks India for such support of Sikh parchaar and continued persecutions and propaganda. We are all endlessly grateful for your patronage.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 24, 2007)

isMG isMG pr SsqR n kry ] jwn gurU Kwlsy qy fry]43]​s*i*(n)gh s*i*(n)gh par shasathr n kar*ae* || j*aa*n g*u*r*oo* kh*aa*las*ae* th*ae* ddar*ae*||43||​A Sikh should never attack another Sikh. He should recognise others as the Guru Khalsa and should remain fearful of them.​Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh​--------------------------​gurU kw isK jy adwsI krY qW Apxy gurW dy AsQwn dyKy​g*u*r*oo* k*aa* s*i*kh j*ae* ouadh*aa*s*ee* kar*ai* th*aa(n)* apan*ae* g*u*r*aa(n)* dh*ae* asathh*aa*n dh*ae*kh*ae*​*The Sikh of the Guru should only visit Sikh Gurdwaras when on pilgrimage.*​Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​----------------------------------​gurU kw isK gor, mVHI, kbr, dyhrw, msIq, mu~lw, kwzI nUM nw mMny, ibnW gurU Apxy​guroo kaa sikh gora marrhee kabara dhaeharaa maseetha mulaa kaazee noo(n) naa ma(n)nae binaa(n) guroo apanae​*The Sikh of the Guru should never pray to graves, cemetries, cremation grounds. *​
*Nor should they pray in Hindu Temples or Mosques. *​
*They should not accept sermons from non-Sikh priests but should only have faith in their Guru.*​Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​----------------------------------​Sbd igAwn ibn krih ju bwq ] qW kY kCu nw Awvih hwQ ]]​shabadh g*i**aa*n b*i*n kareh*i* j b*aa*th || th*aa(n)* k*ai* kashh n*aa* *aa*veh*i* h*aa*thh ||||​Those who speak words which do not reflect on the Guru's teachings will never attain even an iota of spiritual bliss.;​Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​-----------------------------​siqgur kI bwxI ibnw rsnw rtih jo hor so mwirAw krqwr kw pVw nrik mD Gor]26]​sath*i*g*u*r k*ee* b*aa*n*ee* b*i*n*aa* rasan*aa* ratteh*i* j*o* h*o*r s*o* m*aa*r*i**aa* karath*aa*r k*aa* parr*aa* narak madhh gh*o*ra||26||​Those who disregard the Guru's Bani and chant or speak anything else. will be punished by God Himself.​Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​-----------------------------​^wlsw soie duSt kau gwlY ]​khh*aa*las*aa* s*o*e dh*u*shatt ko g*aa*l*ai* ||​He is the Khalsa who destroys the tyrant enemy.​Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​---------------------------------​^wlsw soie ju cBY qurMg ]​khh*aa*las*aa* s*o*e j chabh*ai* th*u*ra(n)g ||​He is the Khalsa who is forever ready for battle.​Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​---------------------------------​Akwl purK ko Cwf kir BjY dyv koeI Aaur jnm jnm BRmqw iPrih lhih n suK kI Taur ]16]​ak*aa*l p*u*rakh k*o* shh*aa*dd kar bhaj*ai* dh*ae*v k*o**ee* ao*u*r janam janam bhramath*aa* f*i*reh*i* leheh*i* n s*u*kh k*ee* t(h)o*u*r ||16||​Those who forget God and worship deities instead. The will be born again and again in delusion and will never attain peace.​Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​---------------------------------​GURBANI​qorau n pwqI pUjau n dyvw ] rwm Bgiq ibnu inhPl syvw ]2]​th*o*ro n p*aa*th*ee* p*oo*jo n dh*ae*v*aa* || r*aa*m bhagath b*i*n n*i*hafal s*ae*v*aa* ||2||​I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols. Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless. ||2||​Page 1158 Bhagat Kabeer Jee Raag Bhairo​----------------------------------------​^wlsw soie krY inq jMg ]​

khh*aa*las*aa* s*o*e kar*ai* n*i*th ja(n)g ||​ 
He is the Khalsa who fights the enemies each and every day.​ 

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee
--------------------------------​ 
​

Taken from Sikhitothemax, *101 REHATS OF A DISCIPLINED SIKH* 
SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge


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## simpy (Apr 24, 2007)

* Respected Saadh Sangat Ji  ,*

*one must learn Gurmukhi and Farsi to actually understand what is written. Translators are giving only their own prospective. And taking the Panth to a totally distructive way. This is solely me neech understand. Somepeople use just one line from somewhere and give it their own meaning.*

*just like for a long long time -these Pandit Teekakaars used to do the translations of Gurbani and taught everybody the wrong meanings of Gurbani. The same is going on with all the rest of the writtings now- leave alone what is even true out of the rest of the stuff that is not qouted in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and other SGPC approved writtings, as people make up poetry that sound similar and tell others it is written by so and so. And so many people out there MISTRANSLATING GURBANI in every language these days- no dearth of them. look where that will take the Sikh Religion. i have no idea what OUR BIG SPOKESMEN SAY ABOUT THAT. *

*WE SAY THIS VERY PROUDLY THAT IN SIKHI BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE TREATED EQUALLY- WHY WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN AND ARDAAS IN SIRI HARMANDIR SAHIB JI???????????????? *

*i would like to know who wrote this RULE.....................*



*khalse di jang apne andar de vikaaran naal hai na ke lokaan naal. The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings. *
*and fight that has to be done as fight is with injustice not with innocent people of another faith. if we do the same then what is the difference between them and us.*

*Guru sahib ne aapney jaannasheen vaar dittay dujiaan nu julam to ajjaad karoun lai, nasamjhi di daldal cho kaddan lai, te asi usee hi daldal ch aapney aap nu dabbo rahe haan.*

*forgive me please*


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## kds1980 (Apr 24, 2007)

harjas kaur ji i am not saying that rss is for development.but nobody could deny the fact that gujarat is the no.1 state of india terms of economic development.

i just have 1 simple question from you if badal is such an oppressive person then why the hell people of punjab voted him into power.this time there was 71% turnout in punjab.btw i don't live in punjab.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 24, 2007)

> just like for a long long time -these Pandit Teekakaars used to do the translations of Gurbani and taught everybody the wrong meanings of Gurbani.


You can read the Gurmukhi. Everything is very clear. What part of it would you like to translate in a different way? It needs no katha. What you are maligning as "wrong translations" and "taking down the Panth in a destructive way" is actually Tat-Khalsa Singh Sabha Gurmat reform. These positions have a valid history within the Panth. 




> Somepeople use just one line from somewhere and give it their own meaning.


These are the some of the Rehitnamay which were brought together to create the Rehit Maryada. Many of these writers of rehitnamay spoke directly to the Guru and understood more than we the context of His Gurbani and codes of Khalsa conduct. You can look these up yourself. You can read Gurbani directly, and check disputed definitions with vaars of Bhai Gurdas, and the Purataan Rehatnamay, and the Rehit Maryada for clarification. Not everyone in the Panth has the same positions. But it is irrefutably clear what the Gurmat Rehtnamas are saying. No need to distort and invalidate them as "mere" translations because you don't agree with Gurmat positions. Can you read Gurumukhi? Then what the Rehitnama says is also clearly NOT a distortion or deliberate mistranslation. Whether you accept it, agree with it or not is another matter. There are always matters of dispute within the Panth. There is room for disagreement. But, please don't invalidate legitimate Gurmat positions on issues like visiting Hindu mandirs which some Gursikhs will consider to be wrong based on literal reading of Purataan Rehitnamas. It may not be wrong for you. Obviously it is wrong for others, based on cited sources.

The badgering, shaming, pressuring of Sikhs to take a position contrary to Gurmat is also a negative indicator. There is no hatred implied by realistic appraisal of the true political affairs of Sikhs with respect to powerful and persuasive forces of assimilation.


> And so many people out there MISTRANSLATING GURBANI in every language these days


These are not my own translations. These are not my own personal positions. I submit myself to the positions of the elder Gursikhs, and to the sources of authority they have directed me to, namely Gurbani, the vaars of Bhai Gurdas (brahmgyani) and the Rehitnamay and Sikh Code of Conduct (Rehit Maryada). If you have a problem with these positions which all compliment each other, then you have a problem with Gurmat Gursikhi.



> _WE SAY THIS VERY PROUDLY THAT IN SIKHI BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE TREATED EQUALLY- WHY WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN AND ARDAAS IN SIRI HARMANDIR SAHIB JI????????????????
> 
> i would like to know who wrote this RULE.....................
> _


The matter was taken up before the Panj Piare of the Akal Takht. A hukam was given that closes this matter. Consider it may have less to do with what is "right" than what is the current state of the Panth and need to create no more divisions and controversy at this time. Moreover this position is not any legitimate refutation of Purataan Rehitnamay about whether Gursikhs should visit Hindu mandirs. I have provided you with citations for why Gurmat does not promote that practice. If you begin to undermine the Purataan Rehitnamay and even Akal Takht and the Panj Piare because you don't like a certain position, then I would caution you to consider who is being destructive to the Khalsa Panth.



> *The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings. *


The Khalsa has always had enemies in the physical world, and injunctions by Guruji to fight jangs. Even the Zafernama of Guru Gobind Singh Ji states clearly the position of chardhi kala in physical combat despite losses of his own sons, and the commitment of the Panth to oppose oppression in a physical way. Nowhere could anyone misinterpret these positions of Guruji as being solely of a spiritual dimension or pacifistic toleration of injustices. It is both, secular AND spiritual warfare. This does not give license to become oppressors, or to become unjust, or to malign or harm innocent people. But there remain political realities which require opposition. What is the very meaning of Rehit Maryada? It means "Continue to remember death 'marna' in the way you live your life." Now, if these codes of conduct had only to do with spiritual ideologies, why the soldierly admonition? 

Hinduism as a religion is not to be maligned because the Akal Purakh is present in it and lot of truths are in its teachings. Hindu's as sincere practitioners of these varied teachings and faiths of Bharat are not to be targeted or mistreated. But HINDUTVA, which is a militant political and racist philosophy is AT WAR WITH SIKH TEACHINGS is to be resisted and opposed. The present political realities require it. Or be assured, assilimation and distortion of Sikhism into sanatan Hindu Dharam will result. This was precisely the goal of the original Singh Sabha movement, to protect the interests of Purataan Sikh Dharam. It aimed to exclude Hinduized corruptions and protect Sikhism from being absorbed into Hinduism. That's why we have these strict definitions in the first place. How can you say these rehitnamaey are "distortions?" Their intent is very clear and consistent...to prevent assimilation. 

Badal won majority in Punjab, because Punjab has for decades annihilated strong, independant Sikh opposition. Naturally if you kill off your opponents by the hundreds of thousands, opposition will lose credibility and political status. The condition of Punjab right now is one of domination by the Hindutva sponsors as well as corruption of the Congress Government. Why else would Punjab be in support of a man and party who actively promote and finance guru RAM SINGH and the Naamdhari lineage of gurus as LEGITIMATE Sikhism? RSS backs this because Naamdharies are part of the Hindu Parivaar. And that's the intended political message. 

Now more than ever, the Gurmat positions of clearly distinguishing Sikhi and not mixing religious traditions and practices, is self-evident survival necessity.

~Please correct my mistakes.


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## dalsingh (Apr 24, 2007)

Yes, in my, for whatever it's worth, opinion, we have way too much pride based on what our ancestors did. 

Sikhs today aren't a fragemnt on them. Especially the ones who pray all the time but couldn't handle a street fight let alone a guerilla movement like the original Khalsa did.


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## simpy (Apr 24, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji  ,*

*still not sure about the reason WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN IN SIRI DARBAAR SAHIB JI. Where this rule is written and by whom??? *

*and khalse di jang-*

*The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)...*

*About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have all other useless things to fight about  ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language. And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then streach it to unlimited lengths  .....*

*Some people even think that by True Sikhi it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo. A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....*

*humbly asking for your forgiveness*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 25, 2007)

> *Respected Saadh Sangat Ji  ,*
> 
> *still not sure about the reason WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN IN SIRI DARBAAR SAHIB JI. Where this rule is written and by whom???*


Panthic Weekly: Panj Piare rejects plea to have Amritdhari women Perform Sewa at Harmandir Sahib


> *and khalse di jang-
> 
> The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us....
> *


*






*
Then why are shastars physical weapons and not spiritual ideals? How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...." How dare you distort the Khalsa Fauj as anything other than protectors of the innocent! As if by saying this anyone would believe that evil and oppression do not exist, which is why the Khalsa exist on this earth. 


*



			About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have all other useless things to fight about  ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language. And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then streach it to unlimited lengths  .
		
Click to expand...

*


> *Some people even think that by becoming a Sikh it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, it is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo.*
> 
> *humbly asking for your forgiveness*


You are doing nindya of me to defend your view that it's okay for Sikhs to visit Hindu mandirs. I submit my views to accepted Gurmat positions, not to something indiscriminately read online, to personal translations, or to contradicting Guru Ji's teachings. But you would go this far in personal slander to invalidate a Gurmat Rehitnama which I quoted, which contradicts your opinion. You dare say Guru Ji's teachings are a "joke" to me because I do not support visiting Hindu mandirs? How do you know what is in my heart or intent? Do you think I write opinions without consulting Gursikhs? You want so much to invalidate this position, but you falsely try to make it my opinion alone.

You may or may not accept this position, but there is no error in translation. And the source is not my independant thought, but Bhai Chaupaa Singh Ji. Rehitnamay are the basis for the Rehit Maryada which every amritdhari follows. It isn't some spurious, erroneous or mistranslated opinion.



> *it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then streach it to unlimited lengths *


 

You should take care who you are referring to as a Pandit teekakaar. 




> gurU kw isK gor, mVHI, kbr, dyhrw, msIq, mu~lw, kwzI nUM nw mMny, ibnW gurU Apxy​guroo kaa sikh gora marrhee kabara dhaeharaa maseetha mulaa kaazee noo(n) naa ma(n)nae binaa(n) guroo apanae​*The Sikh of the Guru should never pray to graves, cemetries, cremation grounds. *​*Nor should they pray in Hindu Temples or Mosques. *​*They should not accept sermons from non-Sikh priests but should only have faith in their Guru.*​Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​


​


> Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji got the chance of having _Darshan_ of four Gurus (Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji, Sri Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji, Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib Ji and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji)...​
> 
> 
> According to Kesar Singh Chhibbar, Guru Ji tasted the nectar, and then first of all, he distributed it to Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji. ​
> ...


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## simpy (Apr 25, 2007)

*Respected Harjas Ji  , *
*i don't know how you are connecting what i wrote in my post to you about every thing. it is a thread about Sikhs. and as a nimani Sikh i am only putting my concerns. sorry if it hurts you respected sister Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.... and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....*

*Wow!*


> How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...."


 
*WHY DO WE ASK FOR SARBAT DA BHALAAAAAAA IN ARDAAS ALL THE TIME-i wonder *
*Respected Harjas Ji !!!!ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT SIKHS ARE SUPPOSED TO FIGHT WITH THE INNOCENTS!!!! *

*please forgive me*


***Respected Saadh Sangat Ji  ,*

*Our Sikh Veers are getting the opportunity to get the Aanad to do Kirtan in Siri Darbaar Sahib Amritsar(SACHKHAND ON THIS EARTH FOR SIKH JAGAT), and no Sikh Bhen has gotten that Golden Chance. Why Women are considered not worthy of this. This is all i am asking-who originated this idea- is it written somewhere, if it is who did it. BECAUSE I CONSIDER IT SAME AS- people who know Sikh History very well, there was a time period women were not allowed in the premises of Siri Darbaar Sahib Ji, that thing is taken care, this will be too one day. i am just looking for -how this whole shamole started. Please correct me Saadh Sangat Ji if asking for the truth is wrong in this case....*

*'Khalsa Soi jo kareh nit Jang' , *
*Here Bhai Nand Lal Ji is talking about the inner war- with panch doot.*

*The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)... so both fights- inner with the panj vikaar. Outer- with the tyrants of the world (who are smothering the human rights like some gajar mooli). Khalsa is pure, nirmal; it protects everybody not just me mine i or we us ours, but ALL...*

*About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have endless time for all the other useless things to fight about  ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language. And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then stretch it to unlimited lengths  ..... and this is perfectly true we have already seen many times on our SPN, any doubts...*

*Some people even think that by True Sikhi it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo. A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....i still stand by what i said before...*

_*Respected Bhai Nand Lal Ji says 'Ma bapa-e-Shah sar afganah em, Az do alam dast ra afshandah em' ......*_


*humbly asking for your forgiveness*


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## sachchasoda (Apr 25, 2007)

Khalsa in the words of Bhai NandLal Jee:

English Translations:
Khalsa is one who *does not speak ill of others*;
Khalsa is one who fights in the front ranks;
Khalsa is one who conquers the five evils;
Khalsa is one who destroys doubt;
Khalsa is one who gives up ego;
Khalsa is one who keeps away from woman, except his wife;
Khalsa is one who *looks upon all his own;*
Khalsa is one who attunes himsef with God.

bhul chuk maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 26, 2007)

> *Respected Harjas Ji  , *
> *i don't know how you are connecting what i wrote in my post to you about every thing. it is a thread about Sikhs. and as a nimani Sikh i am only putting my concerns. sorry if it hurts you respected sister Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.... and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....*


 Did you also just write all this extreme reaction following my citation and tearing it apart as false translation, deliberate distortion, hatred of Gurbani, Horrible for such a person to call themselves a Sikh? So one would have to imply this venom was intended for whoever posted the Rehitnama which you disagreed with. Did you not also spew similar attack in private PM where you accuse me of being filled with krodh, maya and panj dhoots? So how can I not feel it is directed to me personally? Why do you hide behind fake talk like this and smiley faces when you do character assassination?

Did you not say,
*



one must learn Gurmukhi and Farsi to actually understand what is written. Translators are giving only their own prospective. And taking the Panth to a totally distructive way. This is solely me neech understand. Somepeople use just one line from somewhere and give it their own meaning.

Click to expand...

*So here you are implying something is wrong in translation, something is false because translators only give their perspective. And this falsehood in the Rehitnama is taking the Panth in a totally destructive way.

Yet, you do not clarify what is wrong in the translation. I had fluent Gurmukhi and Punjabi speakers read it through carefully and there is no error in translation. I do not assume things on my own. Yet, you are stating that what is written is false, mistranslated and incorrect. But you do not say in what way. 

Did you not also say, 
*



About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue,

Click to expand...

*This is not a general statement, but follows the post where I quoted Rehitnamay. So by implication one must conclude that you accuse me of mistranslating, not having sufficient knowledge, and something is so dire that our leaders are sleeping and must wake up over this destructiveness to the Panth. Yet you fail to clarify how the rehitnamay are false.

Did you not also say,
*



 And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then stretch it to unlimited lengths  ..... and this is perfectly true we have already seen many times on our SPN, any doubts...

Click to expand...

*Are you implying I am learning Gurbani only through translations when I have said I am learning from Gursikhs who are native and fluent speakers of Gurmukhi and Punjabi? Since what you have attacked is my ability to translate this Rehitnama, about visiting Hindu Mandirs, I am still waiting for your clarification and correction. But instead, it is character assassination of my capability, the destructiveness in my intent, and the falsehood of the translated Rehitnama, which you directly say is stretched to unlimited lengths, implying unlimited distortion.

But still you do not state how this Rehitnama is distorted.

Did you not also say,
*



Some people even think that by True Sikhi it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo. A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....i still stand by what i said before...

Click to expand...

*Since all this venomous writing follows my post where I quoted Rehitnama which contradicts your position on Sikhs visiting Hindu mandirs, and all you are writing about is gross destructive distortion, falsehood, and now "some people"

Whose Sikhi means nothing to do with Guru Ji's teachings.

Explain? The Rehitnama is clear. Gursikhs are not to visit temples outside of Gurudwara. Why would this Rehitnama, cited to evaluate for better understanding have anything to do with assassinating the character of anyone as not following Guruji's teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them.

How would you know what Gurbani means for another person? Who are you talking about on this thread, following my post citing Rehitnamay which you already accused of gross mistranslation and destructive falsehood?

You already told me the same thing in private PM, so I know you are referring to me personally when you publically write, 
*



A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....i still stand by what i said before...

Click to expand...

*So you are saying now I am a horrible person who thinks Gurbani is a joke, who is destructive to the Panth, who is lost inassaa mansa trishnaa and unbelievable that I should call myself a Sikh....

all because I quoted a Rehitnama after consulting with Gursikhs about what is proper for a Gursikh regarding visiting Hindu mandirs.

Did you not say,
*



i don't know how you are connecting what i wrote in my post to you about every thing. it is a thread about Sikhs. 

Click to expand...

*But no, it is a thread in which you attacked the translation of a Rehitnama as being false, stretched to unlimited degree (implying deliberate distortion), that Gurbani is a joke to this person, that this person calling themself a Sikh is HORRIBLE. And I know and you know you meant me because in private PM you accused that I was same bad qualities. You are dishonest. But you can play this game on your forum. Who can stop you? You have attacked me worse than Naamdharis and cultists. And I did not attack you. I tried to explain a Gurmat position, which I conform to but wasn't even my own opinion. I asked others why is it Gurmat NOT to visit Hindu mandirs? And I shared with the forum the answer I received.

Did you not say,
*



and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....

Click to expand...

*Yet, all over you are saying the translation of the Rehitnama is false, the translators are deliberately distorting Gurbani and mistranslating, yet I know for a fact the translation is correct. And you do not even explain where it is false, or what is the proper meaning. Thus, since the Rehitnama is not incorrect, not distorted, you are calling something as false. 

Did you not say,
*



About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have all other useless things to fight about  ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language.

Click to expand...

*It's very clear that you are rejecting the Rehitnama as it stands, and directly accusing mistranslation. So I say very clearly, if the translation is NOT false, be careful who you are calling a pandit translator, because you will be speaking badly of the author of the Rehitnama itself if it is not false. So it is a very big assumption that the Rehitnama is false without any proof otherwise to make these big accusations of falsehood, distortion, Gurbani is a joke, not following teachings of Guru, someone like this calling themselves a Sikh is HORRIBLE, is UNBELIEVEBLE...

But still you do not show what is wrong in what the Rehitnama says or any proof to support your abusive position against what is written.

Did you not say,


> *Wow!
> 
> Quote:
> How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...."
> ...


*But you are the one distorting because originally you said,*
*



and khalse di jang-

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)...

Click to expand...

*Here you say the war is fought with one's inner nature ONLY, and NOT WITH OTHERS WHO ARE INNOCENT..... To which I clarified fight is both inner and outer, miri and piri, spiritual and temporal. Within oneslef and against enemies who abuse human rights. But you are twisting, that it is either fight one's inner nature OR FIGHT AGAINST INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS.

This is false. Khalsa is not to fight innocent human beings, and not only to purify inner self BUT ALSO TO FIGHT AGAINST OPPRESSIVE EVIL HUMAN BEINGS. So you are leaving out this part of the equation. And that implies that when Khalsa Panth is fighting external enemy in the physical world, that according to your formulation, Khalsa is WRONG for not only fight inner nature, and thus fighting others who are innocent, who are human beings like us. After I mentioned this, you changed position and clarified,


> *The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)... so both fights- inner with the panj vikaar. Outer- with the tyrants of the world (who are smothering the human rights like some gajar mooli). Khalsa is pure, nirmal; it protects everybody not just me mine i or we us ours, but ALL...*


So I thank you for the clarification. Because the other way, only inner cleaning and to fight evil people is somehow to hurt the innocent is incorrect.



> *sorry if it hurts you respected sister Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.... and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....
> 
> Wow!
> 
> ...


*If this is the worst thing I had to say to you personally in this thread where you are calling me "a fake Sikh, destructive to the Panth, Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha...." If this was the worst thing I had to say, you should look at your attack and ask what in the world that was about.





Khalsa in the words of Bhai NandLal Jee:

English Translations:
Khalsa is one who does not speak ill of others;
Khalsa is one who fights in the front ranks;
Khalsa is one who conquers the five evils;
Khalsa is one who destroys doubt;
Khalsa is one who gives up ego;
Khalsa is one who keeps away from woman, except his wife;
Khalsa is one who looks upon all his own;
Khalsa is one who attunes himsef with God.

bhul chuk maaf

Click to expand...


Indeed. To make this much attack on a fellow Sikh in order to defend visiting of Hindu Mandirs. To call any disagreement with this position as filled with Krodh and hatred of innocent human beings, tells me exactly what kind of Hindutva is behind this forum. I gave very valid reasons why I did not believe it was correct. And even cited Rehitnamay. If I am wrong, why the hysterical character assassination? Your positions and comments are completely indefensible. I have not spoken ill of you one single time. I even acknowledged not all Sikhs agree with this position.

But it's your message forum. I can debate with anyone. But you are not debating, or discussing, or even having heated disagreement. What you are doing no one can even support. So I hearby take my leave from your forum before your ugly attacks against me get even worse. It is too bad really, because I was trying to be friendly to you and even explain why I took the position I did, which was not intended to harm anyone least of all innocent Hindus. And I even shared with you pictures and links of very holy and saintly Hindu spiritual teachers who I have great respect for. But enjoy your extreme negativity and call it anything you like, blame anyone you want. Make me out to be your worst enemy if you want. You're a forum moderator. Who could even stop you?*


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## simpy (Apr 26, 2007)

*Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,*

*in response to the above post-*

*i never ever asked to be a moderator. ASK THEM WHO MADE ME ONE, Respected Ms Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.*

*i been with SPN for over a year now- several people like me, several hate me, several are neutral. *


*if i have made a mistake- i humbly ask for everybody's forgiveness.*
*if truth hurts to some-i am sorry, it will hurt doesn't matter it is coming from which direction.*

*if Sangat decides to take this SPN LEADER Title away from me- no problem, i never ever asked for it.*

*i was humbly doing Seva, i am humbly doing Seva, i will humbly keep doing Seva.*

*and this Seva will always be for spreading goodness that's all.*

*ibsir geI sB qwiq prweI ]*
*jb qy swDsMgiq moih pweI ]1] rhwau ]*
*nw ko bYrI nhI ibgwnw sgl sMig hm kau bin AweI ]1]*
*jo pRB kIno so Bl mwinE eyh sumiq swDU qy pweI ]2]*


*forgive me please*


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## kaur-1 (Apr 26, 2007)

SS0606 said:


> Firstly I would like to explain that my dad is Sikh and mum is Hindu and so I associate with people of both religions but mostly Sikh. I can honestly say that I go to Gurdwara more than I go to Mandir and consider myself a Sikh and to be honest, my mum has never reinforced me to go Mandir, it was always entirely up to me.
> 
> I have a very close Hindu Punjabi friend. She is the only Hindu in our group of friends, but because she is Hindu PUNJABI she never felt out of place and we never treated her differently. Well so I thought....
> 
> ...




Dear SS0606 ji,

Personally, I have been to a Mandir, once as a tourist and once with relatives in the evening during some event invite and was asked to join in to eat food served on banana leaves which was delicious. Yummy. 

As Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present, it feels akward to see them praying to stone idols. So if there is a prayer and I was invited, I would recite Gurbani in my heart and not to the stone idols or maybe not be involved in the prayer at all as they go against Guru Nanaks teachings. Not too sure what I would do actually.

I have also been to churches especially when younger as we went to a catholic school as long as we did not take their amrit. My parents attitude was that Akal Purakh is everywhere so if they would see a Mosque or a Church or a Mandir or a Buddhist temple, they would say "Waheguroo Satnaam" too. The only place I would not go to is a mosque for various personal reasons. Again the same applies as regards to prayers. Do their prayers go against Guru Nanak ji's teachings?
Visiting to do seva of cleaning.. yes. I went to a church a few years ago with a friend as she had to do cleaning seva before we went shopping. She said that she will drop me off at home first or something like that, but I said i will came along and helped in the cleaning seva to the Christians sangat  amazement so I explained briefly "Selfless Seva" in Sikhi way of life to my friend. He..he..

I think the same applies to going to caste name Gurdwara's. Difficult choice. What should we really do.?


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## Lionchild (Apr 26, 2007)

Whoa! Harjas Kaur Khalsa, calm down! It's just a forum. 

Better be careful LOL... or else someone who is more knowledgeable will school you on sikhi, hehe


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 26, 2007)

It's not a matter of schooling.  All are students.  But I'm trying to tell you, your explanations of Sikhism are not even what Sikhi is teaching.  Why are you doing this when people are telling you it's not correct?  If you renounced Sikhism, was it to correct Sikh teaching from a Bahai Standpoint?  I don't get what your criticisms are all about.  If it's not a path for you, then fine.  But why the antagonism?


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## sachchasoda (Apr 26, 2007)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> *So I hearby take my leave from your forum before your ugly attacks against me get even worse.*


 
I had a strong impression that a SIKH has to be true to his/her words. No difference in Kathni(word) and Karni(deed). 
Not that I want anybody gone just curious how a person can believe in what anybody said is the truth,​ 
*when his/her deeds don't match with what he/she says.*​ 


bhul chuk maaf karna please​


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## kaur-1 (Apr 27, 2007)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> It's not a matter of schooling.  All are students.  But I'm trying to tell you, your explanations of Sikhism are not even what Sikhi is teaching.  Why are you doing this when people are telling you it's not correct?  If you renounced Sikhism, was it to correct Sikh teaching from a Bahai Standpoint?  I don't get what your criticisms are all about.  If it's not a path for you, then fine.  But why the antagonism?



Dear Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji, I do agree with your comments and I also sincerely hope that you wont be leaving this forum.


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## Lionchild (Apr 27, 2007)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> It's not a matter of schooling.  *All are students.*  But I'm trying to tell you, your explanations of Sikhism are not even what Sikhi is teaching.  Why are you doing this when people are telling you it's not correct?  If you renounced Sikhism, was it to correct Sikh teaching from a Bahai Standpoint?  I don't get what your criticisms are all about.  If it's not a path for you, then fine.  But why the antagonism?



So I chose to follow another path, and i cannot talk about another way of life now? BTW, thanks for explaining that we are all students and learners of god.

I have been noticing your angry and negative posts, not with me, but with others. You need to step back and calm down Harjas Kaur Khalsa.

Also, i hope you do not leave the forums too


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 30, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Harjas Kaur Khalsa*
> 
> _*So I hearby take my leave from your forum before your ugly attacks against me get even worse.*_
> 
> ...


Yes, I thought it over and wondered why bullies would have the right to chase me away and silence my opinion. Would that be right? It's a philosphy forum for open discussion on controversial topics. What I don't tolerate is personal abusiveness. That is not right. When someone doesn't like my positions and publically attacks me as being a horrible person, a fake Sikh, full of hatred toward the innocent, full of panj dhoots...

not because I said something against them personally, but because I presented an opinion on strict Gurmat Gursikhi they didn't like, I ask, what kind of a forum is this? What kind of forum moderation is this? It's a fair question. It's obvious I can't share in the same way as others do without a personal attack against my character. But likewise, while not throwing the same kind of personal low blows or insults, *why should I be intimidated into silence? Would that be the Khalsa way?* So re-evaluating my position on leaving, which is my free choice unless and until some moderator decides to ban me. Why am I a hypocrite if I change my mind? Why can't I change my mind about being bullied away and still be true to my words? *Who says a Sikh is someone who can't change their mind or form a better opinion? Why tie anyones hands with such a ridiculous limitation, as if we are powerless people with no rights or freedoms?  Wouldn't our enemies just love for us to be unable to think and reason and get all tangled up with that kind of justification of blame? *My deeds *do *match what I say. I simply am changing my position because I don't accept being intimidated, abused or bullied. Why should I give rude people the satisfaction? What right do you have to insinuate I'm a hypocrite and add to the list of slanders against my person? 

But certainly, if all I receive on this forum are personal attacks and slander against my reputation, there would be no point in staying, since I would be effectively silenced anyway. It's unfortunate that after blistering personal attack by a moderator, people defended the moderator and continued the slander against me by referencing all these accusations on other posts, accusing me of negativity and hatred, when all I did was post an unpopular rehitnama to explain my position against visiting Hindu mandirs as part of bibek. So where is the justice in this forum? I didn't even accuse the moderator of being bad for calling me horrible and all these things. The hostility did not come from me. I was attacked for taking a position someone obviously didn't agree with. And the thing, its a debatable position. There are views within the Panth that disagree even with rehitnamay. I just shared my opinion and gave supporting rehitnama to explain why. I can accept that other Sikhs can and do visit Hindu mandirs. But I myself will not support it. If I'm wrong, may Guruji's kirpa explain to me so I understand better. 

It's a forum! Debate! Discuss! Explain! Why make personal attacks? 



> rihq ipAwrI muJ ko isK ipAwrw nwih ]
> "I love a Sikh’s disciplined way of life, not the Sikh."


 



> So I chose to follow another path, and i cannot talk about another way of life now? BTW, thanks for explaining that we are all students and learners of god.
> 
> I have been noticing your angry and negative posts, not with me, but with others. You need to step back and calm down Harjas Kaur Khalsa.
> 
> Also, i hope you do not leave the forums too


1. My posts are not angry and negative. You do nindya of me. If I believe it is wrong to eat from the hand of a non-amritdhari, you may not like or agree with that position, fine. But the position has validity in Gurmat Gursikhi. It's not hateful or negative to support this position if you are trying to conform to Gurmat. Likewise, I am not hateful and horrible to Hindu people. I have stated their temples have presence of Akal Purakh and should be shown utmost respect. I simply took position that it is not Gurmat position for Sikhs to be visiting Hindu temples or Muslim mosques and getting spiritual traditions mixed up in casual way. Not everyone agrees. Obviously it's a minority view. But why abuse it? Why try to make it say what it is not saying? A lot of the Khalsa rehitnamas have to do with segregating the Khalsa. this is practice of bibek/discrimination. Not everyone has to follow that. Not everyone is baptised Khalsa. The most negative thing I said was no one should be badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat, whether it is popular or not. For this I got personally blasted as being all these terrible things as a person. And you people don't even know me as a person. this is not fair, and it is not right. 




> You need to step back and calm down Harjas Kaur Khalsa.


Why don't you be specific and tell me in what way? I was called many abusive things by your forum moderator, and did not make personal attack in retaliation. Mainly because I was disappointed in this person, not angry. So explain why you are jumping in to accuse me of being negative, angry and in need of calm. All you people are doing is twisting my words to say what I didn't say, and accusing me literally of being a horrible person, a fake Sikh, someone who thinks Gurbani is a joke, distorting and mistranslating the Guru's teachings (when I took the issue to Gurmat Gursikh elders and simply quoted the rehitnama they gave me.)

Why join in personal attack on me Lionchild? Is it because you so strongly disagree with my positions that you also want to invalidate them by personal slander and discrediting of me as a person rather than a debate on the issues themselves? That's like trying to gain spiritual insight by throwing mud.




> So I chose to follow another path, and i cannot talk about another way of life now? BTW, thanks for explaining that we are all students and learners of god.


2. Those who are trying to follow a spiritual path are all students. But I explained to you the abuse of the word Sikh/shishya in this context is not correct. Simply because people are trying to learn and be sincere does not make everyone in the world a Sikh. A Sikh by definition is someone committed to Guruji. A Shishya is part of a dual concept, and without the Guru there is no Shishya. To be a shishya, you must belong to the Guru. It's more than mere student. The more correct translation is not student, but disciple. A Sikh is a sincere devotee, he is devoted to following the path/teachings/discipline which the Satguru gives His sikh. For one thing, according to Gurbani, God has the aspect of nirguna, meaning He is unknowable, inconceivable, not manifest to human intellect. To reach God requires a Guru, who is the sargun saroop of Waheguru. A Sikh is not a student of God, but a disciple of Guruji who is the manifest Shabad-Jyote of God. Guru makes God comprehensible to us. That is why we can cross the world-ocean by grace of Guru. He is like the speaking voice of silent God who human beings can understand. Also, not every prophet, not every teacher, not every spiritual person is equal to Satguruji. Gurbani also says that even the gods, like Parvati and Lakshmi and Shiva can take their disciples only so far. But Guru is greater. Guru is greater than Brahma, because Guru is the direct light of Waheguru, and Brahma was created from Waheguru. Gurbani says that Guruji is the only salvation for the age of Kaliyug. The Naam is the boat to carry you across the ocean of maya. Only Guru can give the Naam. So other prophets, teachers, gods, spiritual paths are not equivalent to Guru. 

To be tolerant of something does not mean we undermine our own faith or give it second status. To be a disciple, a cheela, that means to you Guru is everything. Otherwise you are lukewarm, and your commitment is divided among other loves and interests. The thread is titled *"Do we Sikhs have too much arrogance."* Arrogance derives from the word arrogate, from the Latin arro*gate, which literally means "to take for oneself the right." Every spiritual disciple should grasp and cling to their own faith as a means of salvation. No one authentically believes in a half-hearted faith which they doubt and question and undermine and give away for cheapest purpose. You follow a path with all your love and devotion, or you don't follow at all. Unless you take faith into your heart grasping it as a love above all else, you are not really a disciple and you will sell out that which you do not really value. Cling to Guru without looking to the right or to the left. Grasp Him to yourself as your very own. You can't follow two masters. Choose one and truly follow, truly love, arrogate to your heart as if there were no other love in the world. Then you will be a devotee. You do not look at other available husbands and say, well any of these is as good as my love. Your spiritual love is the deepest love. It should be an exclusive love. It should be a sincere love. Fidelity. Loyalty. those are signs of love, not betrayal, not infidelity. Guruji is your Divine Beloved. No one in the world can take His place. If you betray Him, if you give Him up, if you flirt with a million other loves instead of spend time with Him, how far as His beloved do you think you will go?

3. Lionchild, all you have done in your posts and blog is criticize Gursikhi. What in the world is the point? And you accuse me of being negative!!! C'mon man! Is there need to be pointing out all the personal shortcomings of a religious path you rejected? Is that fair to new people who might want to come to this path to read all your criticisms and corrections about it? If you left this path and found a new one, well and good. just start saying positive things you learn about your new path. And here is the thing, people are telling you that your understanding of Sikh positions is not complete, or not correct, yet you still criticize Sikhism based on your flawed understanding, and take the role to correct and teach against the things Sikhs are telling you are wrong understanding. Do you really think in 1 years time you are in a position to teach and correct Sikhs about Sikhism? I ask you honestly, did you ever practice Sikhi according to rehit Maryada and take initiation with Guru as a Sikh? If you did not, how can you say that path is all wrong which you have never even tried to practice? How can that not receive a respectful challenge? And I am showing you respect, not abuse, because I want to win you to my opinion if possible. I want you to be able to understand at least, even if you don't accept.

4. I was happy you came back to the forum, because I was hoping to engage you in discussion really. If you're open-minded enough anyway. I took amrit with Akhand Kirtani Jatha and I know from your posts you're totally opposed to those views. But to me they're very beautiful. And I would be happy to try my best to explain any contentious thing. Again, I neither speak for, nor represent the Jatha, only myself but would be happy to discuss my best understanding about any misconceptions or prejudice. Unfortunately, I think I won't be exactly welcome to do that. At least we can be up front about discrimination on this forum.

5. If my positions are in error, give me your best understanding why, but please don't be abusive to me as a person. And my positions don't speak for or represent the AKJ. So if I'm making a mistake or wrong, that's my error, but I try very hard to be fair to the truth as I best conceive it. And also do not believe only Gianis and scholars can understand Gurmukhi. Guru speaks to His disciples through Gurbani, exactly where they are at. Everybody should be reading Gurbani. Go to the Guru directly, not through some self-important person doing katha explaining it for you or invalidating your approach to Guru Sahib Ji. But by the same token, learn from wiser people and submit your opinion to Panthic teachings. To the best of my knowledge, and never was explained otherwise, I did not take a position which was anti-Panthic, although I have been publically accused of distorting, mistranslating, twisting Gurbani for my own ignorant purpose. The Rehitnamay I cited may reflect a minority opinion, but it's still a PANTHIC position. So it doesn't really amount to abuse of me but to abuse of a minority opinion within the PANTH. 

~Please correct my mistakes. But don't trash me as a person.


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## sachchasoda (Apr 30, 2007)

Respected Harjas Kaur Khalsa,

your words


			
				Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> The most negative thing I said was no one should be badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat, whether it is popular or not.


 
where in today's world a Sikh is badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat. I see everywhere everybody is doing their freewill. OR IS THERE A PLACE IN TODAY'S WORLD THIS THING IS HAPPENING? We all must know about it. 


Sharing information on a forum cannot lead to pressure as no body knows anybody personaly. If one is blindly following what others say on a public forum, that shows this person is totally weak minded. One must use one's God Given discriminative intellect without any pressure from others(this is what True Sikhs DO). If I am not stupid- it seems all are simply sharing information on this forum- (me stupid just thinking loud).

Respected all,

One very important thing I want to share with all- this arrogance against going to temple is useless. When I look at this as a point of view of a friend- WHY ONE MADE A HINDU HIS/HER FRIEND if this person doesn't want to be with this person at CERTAIN occasions of this person's life(usualy the important ones as only the important ones one tends to celebrate in a religious place). ISN'T THIS FUNNY FRIENDSHIP. 

If one doesn't want to eat from a non-sikh or a non-amritdhari or a non-similarkindAmritdhari then SIMPLY DON'T BE FRIENDS WITH THEM AT ALL. SIMPLE AS THAT. 

Just a reminder I am only sharing my views on the subject based on the continued discussion.

Saadh Sangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karni


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 30, 2007)

> your words
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Harjas Kaur Khalsa*
> ...


The better question is where in the world is a Sikh *NOT* badgered, shamed, pressured into compromising on principles of Gurmat? Everywhere in the world is pressure to conform to the world, to cut hairs, to remove dastaar, to avoid nitnam, to remove panj kakkars, to have relations with person not your spouse. Everywhere maya is giving this pressure because that is the nature of temptation and the fake world.



> Sharing information on a forum cannot lead to pressure as no body knows anybody personaly.


We weren't discussing pressure on a forum, we were discussing the pressuring, shaming and badgering of Sikh kids who had REFUSED for personal reasons NOT to go to Hindu mandir. 

As to the forum, yes, I believe blistering personal attack and invalidation with assassination of the charater of someone who posts is a pressure to silence and shame that voice from having any legitimate opinion. So yes, this kind of thing can also be done online, although the original comment had to do with real life situations where family and friends would pressure someone into doing something they feel is not right.




> One must use one's God Given discriminative intellect without any pressure from others(this is what True Sikhs DO).


True Sikhs are human beings who have a right not to be unduly influenced by the prejudices of others. Although in this maya world, Guruji is testing all of us and our resolve to commit to Gursikhi absolutely against the odds. What true Sikhs do, and what our kids do and are influenced by may be different things, realistically. It is our duty to promote principles of Gurmat, not expect kids will be able to resist every influence contrary to Gursikhi.


> One very important thing I want to share with all- this arrogance against going to temple is useless. When I look at this as a point of view of a friend- WHY ONE MADE A HINDU HIS/HER FRIEND if this person doesn't want to be with this person at CERTAIN occasions of this person's life(usualy the important ones as only the important ones one tends to celebrate in a religious place). ISN'T THIS FUNNY FRIENDSHIP.


You are altering essential facts. The discussion was about a casual invitation to visit Hindu mandir as equally as Sikh Gurudwara. I have already agreed to the position to attend Hindu mandir for important life events of a friend such as wedding and funeral would not be of the same character as interchangeably visiting Hindu mandir and Gurudwara, as this poster said his mother is a Hindu, his father is a Sikh, and his friend comes to Gurudwara all the time. And Hindu friend resented that no one accepted her equal invitation. I did advocate kindness to this girl and spoke against mistreating her or saying negative things about her faith. But that the kids should gently explain reasons why they felt uncomfortable to visit Hindu mandir. It is their right after all, NOT to go if they don't want to. And that was the point.




> If one doesn't want to eat from a non-sikh or a non-amritdhari or a non-similarkindAmritdhari then SIMPLY DON'T BE FRIENDS WITH THEM AT ALL. SIMPLE AS THAT.


It isn't a matter of what one wants to do. Gurmat Gursikhi has a principle of bibek where you are not supposed to. One thing, it's not just accepting food from an amritdhari, but this discipline is also about accepting food which has been made into langar by an amritdhari who is japping Naam while preparing the food. It's not a rejection of anyone, it's a purification process. If anything, how much easier to go to fast food restaurant and care less? It's a discipline, not a hatred of others. The key is you don't want to consume the vibration of negative tendancies and influences, like food from hand of a smoker, food from hand of an atheist, food from hand of someone living an immoral lifestyle. You don't want to pull yourself into the temptation of those kind of thoughts. This article may explain it better. And I agree, it's better for Khalsa to avoid negative influence of non-Khalsa friendships, especially the kids. You can be friendly, but don't be overly familiar and start adopting those non-Khalsa values and influences.

*http://naam-jor.blogspot.com/2007/01/sarbloh-bibek.html*

Apart from sarbloh bibek which is a hard discipline, consider these quotes from the SGPC Rehit Maryada, which is actually the most liberal. They all have to do with making a point that Khalsa should keep distinct Identity, not participate in Hindu rituals or customs or associate with elements antagonistic to the Panth like RSS, (political realities are acknowledged). Mind you these apply only to amritdhari Sikhs. But they do apply, and if someone has received amrit, they have to follow the Rehit Maryada of the Panj Piare they received amrit from. Taksali Rehit Maryada and AKJ Rehit Maryada are much stricter and include supportive Rehitnamay which are only briefly alluded to in SGPC Maryada. But even in SGPC version, it is clear that Khalsa are to separate themselves from common social practices. Khalsa live a life of discipline, not popularity. It's the opposite of arrogance. You can't eat the things everybody around you in school or work are eating. And it's very humbling sometimes to go without food instead of breaking the rehit. And more than that, it's one of the most deliberately misrepresented practices and a cause for social rejection and abuse by other Sikhs, many of whom eat meat and smoke and have no spiritual practice at all. No one gives you any special respect to keep this discipline. And it does have basis in Gurmat Gursikhi.


> a. *Worship* should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and *to no god or goddess. *
> 
> b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten* Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.*
> 
> ...


 


> [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]*q. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott:* [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion *with elements antagonistic to the Panth* including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]*2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs; *[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]3. One who dyes his beard; [/SIZE]
> ...


 
~Bhul chuk maaf karni Ji


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## sachchasoda (Apr 30, 2007)

Respected Harjas Kaur Khalsa

Aren't these two things totaly contradictory to each other:



			
				 Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> I have already agreed to the position to attend Hindu mandir for important life events of a friend such as wedding and funeral


 
and



			
				Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> They all have to do with making a point that Khalsa should keep distinct Identity, not participate in Hindu rituals or customs or associate with elements antagonistic to the Panth.......


 
just thinking out loud and I am not altering anything. Just stating what I think and what I Practice. 

Saadh Sangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna Ji.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 30, 2007)

Being a support to a friend in time of need during significant life events is not the same thing as casually mixing two religious paths by attending both Hindu mandir and Gurudwara.

For one thing, as a Sikh, you can't take prasad offered to idols. You can't sing bhajans praising Hindu gods. For what purpose are you even there? Because you're friend wants you to be there? 

How is it contradictory if your friend is attending a funeral or wedding, you would have a purpose to support him/her *without* participating in practices contrary to Gursikhi?

A wedding or funeral is an unusual event. This isn't the same as someone whose father is Sikh, whose mother is Hindu and who attends both Hindu mandir and Gurudwara interchangeably, or whose Hindu friend always attends Gurudwara and Sikh events and wants to know why Sikhs don't do likewise with Hindu mandir. One is mixing traditions and exposing a Sikh to anti-Gurmat influences, and the other is being a friend in time of need as a friend while remaining aloof from all such practices. They are entirely different scenarios as per the original topic thread.


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## sachchasoda (Apr 30, 2007)

Not in my view Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji. 


Anyways while I was reading your post 


			
				Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> It's not a rejection of anyone, it's a purification process. If anything, how much easier to go to fast food restaurant and care less? It's a discipline, not a hatred of others. The key is you don't want to consume the vibration of negative tendancies and influences, like food from hand of a smoker, food from hand of an atheist, food from hand of someone living an immoral lifestyle. You don't want to pull yourself into the temptation of those kind of thoughts.


I was thinking about PURIFICATION. just remembered Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Bani: 
Page 951
sloku mÚ 1 ]
sqI pwpu kir squ kmwih ]
gur dIiKAw Gir dyvx jwih ]
iesqrI purKY KitAY Bwau ]
BwvY Awvau BwvY jwau ]
swsqu bydu n mwnY koie ]
Awpo AwpY pUjw hoie ]
kwjI hoie kY bhY inAwie ]
Pyry qsbI kry Kudwie ]
vFI lY kY hku gvwey ]
jy ko puCY qw piV suxwey ]
qurk mMqRü kin irdY smwih ]
lok muhwvih cwVI Kwih ]
caukw dy kY sucw hoie ]
AYsw ihMdU vyKhu koie ]
jogI igrhI jtw ibBUq ]
AwgY pwCY rovih pUq ]
jogu n pwieAw jugiq gvweI ]
ikqu kwrix isir CweI pweI ]
nwnk kil kw eyhu prvwxu ]
Awpy AwKxu Awpy jwxu ]1]

Page 1195
bsMqu ihMfolu Gru 2
<> siqgur pRswid ]
mwqw jUTI ipqw BI jUTw jUTy hI Pl lwgy ]
Awvih jUTy jwih BI jUTy jUTy mrih ABwgy ]1]
khu pMifq sUcw kvnu Twau ]
jhW bYis hau Bojnu Kwau ]1] rhwau ]
ijhbw jUTI bolq jUTw krn nyqR siB jUTy ]
ieMdRI kI jUiT auqris nwhI bRhm Agin ky lUTy ]2]
Agin BI jUTI pwnI jUTw jUTI bYis pkwieAw ]
jUTI krCI prosn lwgw jUTy hI bYiT KwieAw ]3]
gobru jUTw caukw jUTw jUTI dInI kwrw ]
kih kbIr qyeI nr sUcy swcI prI ibcwrw ]4]1]7]


thinking how and why many people are going totally the opposite way what Guru Ji is telling us to follow.

again when I am supposed to see Akaal Purkh in all how can I differentiate between a hindu hand and a muslim hand and a sikh hand? How can I figure out who sowed the wheat I am eating? who harvested it, who packed it? what water was used by the Farmer- HINDU/MUSLIM/CHRISTIAN/ATHIEST? How  can I distinguish who installed the wires I am using to send my message to SPN- CHRISTIAN/MUSLIM/BAHAI/OTHER/ATHIEST? 
And Gurbani tells me: SSGS page 25

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 Gru 4 ]
qU drIAwau dwnw bInw mY mCulI kYsy AMqu lhw ]
jh jh dyKw qh qh qU hY quJ qy inksI PUit mrw ]1]
n jwxw myau n jwxw jwlI ]
jw duKu lwgY qw quJY smwlI ]1] rhwau ]
qU BrpUir jwinAw mY dUir ]
jo kCu krI su qyrY hdUir ]
qU dyKih hau mukir pwau ]
qyrY kMim n qyrY nwie ]2]
jyqw dyih qyqw hau Kwau ]
ibAw dru nwhI kY dir jwau ]
nwnku eyk khY Ardwis ]
jIau ipMfu sBu qyrY pwis ]3]
Awpy nyVY dUir Awpy hI Awpy mMiJ imAwnuo ]
Awpy vyKY suxy Awpy hI kudriq kry jhwnuo ]
jo iqsu BwvY nwnkw hukmu soeI prvwnuo ]4]31]

confusing  

Saadh Sangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna ji


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 1, 2007)

> qurk mMqRü kin irdY smwih ] (951-15, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
> turak mantar kan ridai samaahi.
> The Muslim scriptures are in their ears and in their hearts.
> lok muhwvih cwVI Kwih ] (951-16, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
> ...


 I will assume the operative part of the shabad relating to the issue of dietary bibek is _they anoint their kitchens trying to become pure._ First one must consider the entire context, and not simply refer to a line here or there for understanding. It's talking about inner corruption such as plundering people and ignoring weeping children while attempting to engage in purifying practices. 


> BrIAY hQu pYru qnu dyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
> bharee-ai hath pair tan dayh.
> When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty,
> pwxI DoqY auqrsu Kyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
> ...


If one doesn't wash one's hands it introduces bacteria into food. So it is a health practice to keep your hands clean when touching and preparing food. Also, the kind of diet you eat has a profound effect on the health of the body, and in subtle ways on states of mind by affecting brain chemistry and hormonal balance influencing mood. If you are a vegetarian, you don't want meat contaminating your food. We've come to a point in society today where all kinds of garbage contaminate the food. You know about the mad cow disease epidemic? Well, cows are vegetarian, yet it was common practice to put in commercial feed rotting carcasses of dead beef, so the cows were ingesting dead cows, and thats what got them sick and spread the disease. Why would society be so unclean, so insane in its practices? What tolerance encouraged this mentality? 




> In the month and a half since a case of mad cow disease was discovered in Washington State, Americans have been learning more than they wanted to know about what cattle in this country have been eating.
> Though consumers may imagine bucolic scenes of nursing calves and cows munching on grass or hay, much of American agriculture no longer works that way. For years, calves have been fed cow's blood instead of milk, and cattle feed has been allowed to contain composted wastes from chicken coops, including feathers, spilled feed and even feces...
> 
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9505EED7103BF935A35751C0A9629C8B63


First of all discernment is a spiritual practice that allows a person to use common sense. Bibek strictly prohibits meat-eating so ingesting of diseased and contaminated food like this would be avoided. Check labels of foods to avoid secondary contamination of things like gelatin or rennet which contain ground fish bones, pigs hoofs and cow's stomachs found in things like cheese and yoghurt. If you want to talk about actual arrogance, consider science which develops all these weird and ghastly permutations of food products in order to cater to business industries that care nothing for the disease promoting qualities of the food they contaminate.


> Traditionally, the first step in making cheese was to kill a newly-born, milk-fed calf and remove its stomach to make rennet. The rennet was derived from the inner lining of the abomasum, the fourth stomach of the calf or any other animal classified as a ruminant. After scraping the stomach, the cheesemaker would dry it in the sun by stretching it on a rack. After the stomach was dry, it was cut it into squares or strips. Before the strips or squares were used, they were soaked in cold water and washed thoroughly before being placed in milk.
> 
> http://www.vegparadise.com/news32.html


It's true almost everything in the world is impure, and our attempts at spiritual purification are futile. Guruji gives us the Naam, through which the whole body-mind-atma are purified. *Bibek is first about about avoiding jhooth.* Since the atma is encased in physical form, the nature of body-mind have a direct effect on one's spiritual jeevan. Bibek is a practice not only of rejecting food from non-amritdharis, but a bibeki Singh will reject food from amritdhari. The food is supposed to be prepared in a special way by chanting Naam while you prepare it. *So bibek is secondly about putting the Naam, the power of spiritual liberation into the food itself so it has power to wash the mind and body.*


> so ikau mnhu ivswrIAY jw ky jIA prwx ] (16-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> so ki-o manhu visaaree-ai jaa kay jee-a paraan.
> How can you forget the One who created your soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life?
> iqsu ivxu sBu ApivqRü hY jyqw pYnxu Kwxu ] (16-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> ...






> kuVImwr msMd jo mIxy kw pRswid ley ju ien ky hwQ kw jnm gvwvih bwd]20]
> k*u*rr*ee*m*aa*r masa(n)dh j*o* m*ee*n*ae* k*aa* pras*aa*dh le*ae* j e*i*n k*ae* h*aa*thh k*aa* janam gav*aa*veh*i* b*aa*dha||20||
> Do not eat food made by those who are excommunicated from the Panth The life of those who take from their hands will go avail.
> Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh







> corw jwrw rMfIAw kutxIAw dIbwxu ] vydInw kI dosqI vydInw kw Kwxu ] (790-1, sUhI, mÚ 1)
> choraa jaaraa randee-aa kutnee-aa deebaan. vaydeenaa kee dostee vaydeenaa kaa khaan.
> Thieves, adulterers, prostitutes and pimps, make friendships with the unrighteous, and eat with the unrighteous.
> isPqI swr n jwxnI sdw vsY sYqwnu ] (790-2, sUhI, mÚ 1)
> ...


Yes, the whole world is impure. But the Guru's Sikh is set apart from the world and given the Naam, the door to liberation because he belongs to Guru. Naam is what will purify the mind and body. 


> mwqw jUTI ipqw BI jUTw jUTy hI Pl lwgy ] (1195-5, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
> maataa joothee pitaa bhee joothaa joothay hee fal laagay.
> The mother is impure, and the father is impure. The fruit they produce is impure.
> Awvih jUTy jwih BI jUTy jUTy mrih ABwgy ]1] (1195-6, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
> ...


 Kabeer says they alone are pure who obtain pure understanding. So who are those pure people and what is that pure understanding? Later the pauri goes on to say,



> gur kw sbdu kwtY koit krm ]3]1] (1195-15, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq rwmwnµd jI)
> gur kaa sabad kaatai kot karam. ||3||1||
> The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1||


So the word of the Guru's shabad is itself the purifier that makes pure people. The Naam makes mind and body pure. 



> ijn sbid gurU suix mMinAw iqn min iDAwieAw hir soie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
> jin sabad guroo sun mani-aa tin man Dhi-aa-i-aa har so-ay.
> Those who hear and believe in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, meditate on the Lord in their minds.
> Anidnu BgqI riqAw mnu qnu inrmlu hoie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
> ...


So in context of Gurbani, the Naam actually is what washes the mind and body of spiritual filth and all uncleaness. So the practice of bibek takes only that food which has been made into *langar *by an amritdhari who is also a *Naam abiyaasi* who is japping Naam while preparing the food. This practice is a way of intensifying the purification properties of the Naam *by ingesting vibration of the Lord's praise with every breath and with every morsel of food.*



> siB rs imTy mMinAY suixAY swloxy ] (16-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> sabh ras mithay mani-ai suni-ai saalonay.
> Believing, all tastes are sweet. Hearing, the salty flavors are tasted;
> Kt qursI muiK bolxw mwrx nwd kIey ] (16-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> ...


Gurbani is saying chanting with one's mouth gives a spice, a flavor from the Sound current of the Naad, and eating other foods give false pleasure which ruins the body and is an opening for wickedness and corruption to enter the mind.


> qnu sUcw so AwKIAY ijsu mih swcw nwau ] (19-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> tan soochaa so aakhee-ai jis meh saachaa naa-o.
> That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.
> BY sic rwqI dyhurI ijhvw scu suAwau ] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> ...


Gurbani is very clear that Naam is what cleanses the pollutions. 



> Anidnu scu slwhxw scy ky gux gwau ] (53-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> an-din sach salaahnaa sachay kay gun gaa-o.
> Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.
> scu Kwxw scu pYnxw scy scw nwau ]2] (53-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> ...


Here Gurbani is talking about *saas giras simran*, where every breath (in breath and out breath with Waheguru mantar and in every morsal of food (langar of food prepared with Naam abiyaasi japping Naam *to put Shabad current into the food*).


> qU srb jIAw pRiqpwlhI lyKY sws igrws ] (20-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> too sarab jee-aa partipaalahee laykhai saas giraas.
> You are the Cherisher of all beings; You keep the account of our breaths and morsels of food.
> AMqir gurmuiK qU vsih ijau BwvY iqau inrjwis ]1] (20-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> ...





> sohMdVo hB Twie koie n idsY fUjVo ] (80-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> sohandarho habh thaa-ay ko-ay na disai doojrho.
> He is Beautiful in all places; I do not see any other at all.
> Kul@Vy kpwt nwnk siqgur Bytqy ]1] (80-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> ...


Here Gurbani is talking about *all the doors being wide open. These are the spiritual centers of the body and includes the tenth door/dasam duar all being opened wide by the Satguru*, and with practice of saas giras simran *japping Gurmantra with every breath, and every bite of food*. So Gurbani is clear that spiritual practice of bibek belongs to Gursikhi as a means of purification and liberation. 


> pihrY bwgw kir iesnwnw coAw cMdn lwey ] (213-1, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
> pahirai baagaa kar isnaanaa cho-aa chandan laa-ay.
> You wear white clothes and take cleansing baths, and anoint yourself with sandalwood oil.
> inrBau inrMkwr nhI cIinAw ijau hsqI nwvwey ]3] (213-1, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
> ...





> myry mn guru guru guru sd krIAY ] (213-3, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
> mayray man gur gur gur sad karee-ai.
> O my mind, dwell always upon the Guru, Guru, Guru.
> rqn jnmu sPlu guir kIAw drsn kau bilhrIAY ]1] rhwau ] (213-4, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
> ...





> qU BrpUir jwinAw mY dUir ] (25-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> too bharpoor jaani-aa mai door.
> You are present everywhere. I had thought that You were far away.
> jo kCu krI su qyrY hdUir ] (25-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> ...


Guru gives you Naam to eat, to breathe, to open all your bodies doors of perception. The door of Naam/praise is that which you should go through. Gurbani cannot contradict itself. If you research there are also supporting Rehitnamay which support bibek.



> Various Puraatan rehitnamas also make clear the importance of Bibek for a Sikh. Bhai Daya Singh rehitnaama contains the following bachans: "Bhojanaad Moundit naal chhakey, Tankhaiyaa" or One who eats food with a Mona/non-Sikh, is guilty of a breach of conduct (Piara Singh Padam’s Rehitnamay pg. 72); also "Patr sarb loh kay, bhougtay asan souaad....loh patr mai chhakai," meaning: using utensils of sarbloh, one eats tasty food...one should eat in sarb loh utensils" (Padam, 75)
> 
> The Rehitnama Hazooree by Chaupa Singh says "Guru kaa Sikh...apaNy langar rasoee vich Sikh rakhey. Hukaie, Topeeaa, BhaadNee, chor, yaar, jooaybaaz, kurehiteeyaa na rakhai" meaining "A Guru ka Sikh...should keep only a Sikh in his langar and kitchen. Smokers, hat-wearers, shaven people, theieves, gamblers, kurehitees should not be kept" (Padam, 85).
> 
> ...


 


> jy kurihqIey jg drswvq pwhul pIie kukrm kmwvq ] iqn soN vrqx nwihM imlwvY rih inrlyp prm suK pwvY ]
> j*ae* k*u*reh*i*th*ee*e*ae* jag dharas*aa*vath p*aa*h*u*l p*ee*e k*u*karam kam*aa*vath || th*i*n s*o*(n) varathan n*aa*h*i*(n) m*i*l*aa*v*ai* reh*i* n*i*ral*ae*p param s*u*kh p*aa*v*ai* ||
> Those who after taking Amrit but commit a cardinal sin; Their company should be avoided (until they retake Amrit) to maintain the Guru's blessings.
> Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh


----------



## sachchasoda (May 1, 2007)

Respected Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji,
Your message includes a lot of misinterpretations of Gurbani and mixed messages.

If I am understanding the purpose though- you are saying that everything can be purifed by NAAM VIBRATIONS, but still one must avoid the jooth.

Why avoid it when you are so purified?
Why avoid it when ALL IS WAHEGURU?
Why avoid it when Guru Ang Sang all the time to take care of you?
Why avoid it when you can purify it by the Naam Vibrations?



SadhSangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna Ji.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 1, 2007)

> Your message includes a lot of misinterpretations of Gurbani and mixed messages.


Why don't you prove me wrong, and not just make a claim. How is this misinterpretation?




> If I am understanding the purpose though- you are saying that everything can be purifed by NAAM VIBRATIONS, but still one must avoid the jooth.





> nrml sbdu inrml hY bwxI ] (121-1, mwJ, mÚ 3)
> nirmal sabad nirmal hai banee.
> The Word of the Shabad is Immaculate and Pure; the Bani of the Word is Pure.
> 
> ...





> haumY mYlu gur sbdy DovY ] (121-8, mwJ, mÚ 3)
> ha-umai mail gur sabday Dhovai.
> Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the filth of egotism is washed away.
> 
> ...


 
Naam is the Purifier. Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad. Sound is a wave. Thus it is vibration on a deeper level of reality.
Yes, we have to live a disciplined life and avoid Jhooth. Otherwise people will get physically sick from carelessness. You need to have common sense. We have to avoid evil or we become corrupt. We have to live a state of purification inner and outer. Guruji doesn't live our life for us. He gives us Naam, we have to make use of it. After receiving Gurmantar if you never jap Naam, will you be purified just because Akal Purakh is in you? Akal Purakh is in the child molester too. But unless he stops doing evil deeds, he can't get pure. *You have to live your life in such a way that you avoid pollutions inner and outer.* Guruji says he loves the rehit, not the Sikh. It is the disciplined life that Guru loves.

Did I not quote:



> BrIAY hQu pYru qnu dyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
> bharee-ai hath pair tan dayh.
> When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty,
> pwxI DoqY auqrsu Kyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
> ...


*



Why avoid it when you are so purified?

Click to expand...

*


> *Why avoid it when ALL IS WAHEGURU?*
> *Why avoid it when Guru Ang Sang all the time to take care of you?*
> *Why avoid it when you can purify it by the Naam Vibrations?*



Veerji, everything that exists in material reality has the property of duality. So, everything that exists is both an object in time and space...and it is also a wave which at higher dimensions is sound and light. Just because something has a dual nature, doesn't mean it is manifesting as sound and light. Objects and things in the world manifest as what they are. A virus is still a virus which can cause disease. A tiger is still a tiger which can attack and kill you. What kind of fool would go around in the world and say, "All is God. I am God. Guru Ang Sang will take care of me. And take no care to protect himself from harms that exist in the material world?  Are you saying there is no evil because all is Waheguru?  Are you saying evil people don't have an evil effect that we should avoid?  Purification is a process.  People become pure.  But until someone is jeevan mukt, he can spiritually fall from that great height.  Most of us aren't even close.  So yes, influences can bring us down. 


> iqsu ivxu sBu ApivqRü hY jyqw pYnxu Kwxu ] (16-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
> tis vin sabh apvitar hai jaytaa painan khaan.
> Without Him, all that we wear and eat is impure.


But Gurbani says the Naam is what will lead us to liberation. Gurbani says the Naam will help us conquer our panj vikaars. Gurbani says the only thing of true value in this world is the Naam.


> ijn sbid gurU suix mMinAw iqn min iDAwieAw hir soie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
> jin sabad guroo sun mani-aa tin man Dhi-aa-i-aa har so-ay.
> Those who hear and believe in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, meditate on the Lord in their minds.
> Anidnu BgqI riqAw mnu qnu inrmlu hoie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
> ...


 


> mnu mYlw hY dUjY Bwie ] (121-11, mwJ, mÚ 3)
> man mailaa hai doojai bhaa-ay.
> The mind is polluted by the love of duality.
> 
> ...


I don't even understand the nature of your objection. What person driving a car would put a blindfold on because "Ang Sang Waheguru will take care of me?" Did I quote something in Gurbani which says something ridiculous like this? Please show me. Or are you making ridiculous analogies which defy common sense? You don't wipe when you use the bathroom? Oh course you do. To practice uncleaness promotes disease. Not to have discrimination around the company you keep, the influences you put into your mind, the vibration you put into your body would be foolishness and take you on a wrong road. Are you implying jhooth does not exist? Are you implying Naam does not purify the mind/body spiritually and lead to liberation? What exactly is your point?

Veerji I said very little by way of commentary. Most of what I did was quote Gurbani and Rehitnamay. Are you saying Gurbani is ridiculous? You are saying the post has a lot of mistranslations. Why don't you clarify with your own translations and prove this by doing a better job? Otherwise it's just a groundless accusation proving nothing and another form of nindya.


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## Parma (May 1, 2007)

So harjas. I say all men and women are sikh/ If everyone is not a sikh. Then how does the religion grow? Who is then? I gues its just you isnt it. The sikh religion has no space to grow. If that is the case then the intire sikh religion begins and ends with you then, because no one else is a sikh in your eyes unless they follow your views. I follow the gurbarni. The intire view that we have too much arrogance is because why? Some people do not wish to follow your view. Realise that everyones life is different or yours our religion does not tie people down into it. So why do you try. Work along side the world not against it. Like a wall whenever I try to make sense all you come up with is a wall. I like you because you try hard to make people learn the texts, but then you try and judge them aswell. Its not your place to judge. If i'm wrong then i'm wrong and I will learn from my own mistakes. Not from a diffensive point of view. If you dont like my comments just tell me ****** off. I leave you alone hopefully its somthing to think about


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## Sahota (May 1, 2007)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Harjas ji your sending mixed messages. One sikhi de anukool, duja sikhi de khilaaf, teeja who knows what>>>>>

long long message that ends up in no sense at all.

A lot of Gurbani though, which is not readable either, is everybody have the same problem or it is my computer. I am able to read all the others but not the ones posted by her!

Back to the Arrogance- Dear SS0606 ji, very sorry to hear what treatment your friend got from her Sikh friends. This is happening a lot. We must educate our fellow Sikhs not to behave like this with our friends who belong to other religions. Like you say a Sikh must respect all, and not just in talk but in deed as well. Our Gurus have taught us this thing several times in gurbani. What happened to that 'sagal kee rainkaa' temprament. 

Kaur-1 ji, my wife does the same thing you are talking about, saying Waheguru everytime we pass by church or other temples, I use to laugh at her before but now I am learning too. I guess growing up  . 

Surinder Ji, you really made me think-??WHY ARROGANCE??

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 2, 2007)

> Harjas ji your sending mixed messages. One sikhi de anukool, duja sikhi de khilaaf, teeja who knows what>>>>>
> long long message that ends up in no sense at all. A lot of Gurbani though, which is not readable either, is everybody have the same problem or it is my computer. I am able to read all the others but not the ones posted by her!


*1.* First I apologize because I have a lot of problems posting Gurbani on this forum. If I make translation, it changes English to Gurmukhi making no sense. If I fix English and Roman, the Gurmukhi changes also, making unreadable. This goes on back and forth for a long time trying to make it work. Often I lose the clear Gurmukhi script, and have to use personal fonts which are hard to read. But no one is asking clarification of any particular shabad. I would be happy to clarify any shabad that appears unclear. It's not a discussion. It's an attack on Gurmat. 

*2. You say I am saying some things according to Sikhi, and some things against Sikhi.* *Yet every single point I have supported with Gurbani, with Rehitnamay.* The points I am conforming my own opinion to are Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha point of view. While maybe not a popular view, it is still Gurmat and completely Panthic. As I read carefully these numerous objections. I see a very calculated attempt to force the acceptance of Hinduization of Gursikhi by making a Panthic Tat-Khalsa Gurmat position seem false, and a sanatan God-is-in-ALL-every-practice-is-Sikh view seem the only correct view. That is really the issue here.

*3.* If I explain the Khalsa rehits which explain how Khalsa is to keep distinct identity which was orally transmitted to the original Panj Piare and left to us in various Rehitnamay, you people say I am mistranslating, misquoting, distorting, or even a horrible person, a fake Sikh.

*4.* If I explain principles of dietary bibek, you say that I am against Gurbani, even when I explain from Gurbani, and clarify supportive interpretation from vaaran of Bhai Gurdas and rehitnamay. I even provide links to Gurmat sites for further clarification and independant study. *But no one cares about clarification. In one simple sentence you are accusing of being against Sikhi.* So I caution you, my opinion is nothing and I encourage all to correct my personal mistakes. But Gurmat Gursikhi is everything. If you disregard these points of view entirely, what you are doing is discrediting independant Sikh identity by spreading anti-Gurmat propaganda and sanatan dharam world-view. All while pretending to be Sikhi. You do not espouse the Gurmat position. And you have no supporting context for your translations of Gurbani.

*5. There is nothing I have posted which is against Sikhi. What is against Sikhi is the sanatan assimilation position. What you all are promoting here.* One says Guruji is just another teacher equal to all great relious teachers. One says Sikhi is interchangeable with Hindu worship. One says ALL is Waheguru and thus their practices should be accepted as equal to Sikhi. One says all men are Sikhs. *Anything which asserts the independance of Sikh identity is labeled "against (khilaaf) Sikhi."* *Even if it is a Gurmat Gursikhi interpretation. Because the attempt is to badger, shame, and force the assimilation viewpoint.*

What is against Sikhi is this Hindu blending; notion of equality with every religion having no pride or dignity or loyalty to one's own faith; and rejection of Gurmat interpretations of Gurbani.

*6.* Sikh identity has always been under attack. Since 1978 the Panth has been under extreme stress and diabolical pressure. And the Panth acknowledges that the greatest attack is the assimilation of Gursikhi into the Hindu fold by fundamentalist Hindutva missionaries. It is more insidious than any genocidal killing spree. It is negligent to ignore this present-day reality.

Not every Muslim will visit a Buddhist temple. Not every Jewish person will visit a Christian church. *But all can be friends if they have RESPECT for the DIFFERENCES in religious belief. And not keep trying to force the acceptance of any other way and blending of beliefs/practices as one.*

*7. What we are witnessing on this message board are people with the name of Sikh who are REJECTING any right to difference, DISRESPECTING any non-sanatan viewpoint, and personally attacking, discrediting, and devaluing someone who promotes a strictly Gurmat view.*

The Sikh friends of this Hindu girl did not hurt her in any way by _"choosing for themselves the right"_ *NOT* *to attend Hindu worship services*. It is her problem if she, and the entire sanatan community, take offense.

*NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO DISRESPECT HIS OWN UNIQUE IDENTITY IF HE WANTS TO KEEP HIS RELIGION DISTINCT! *

*IT SHOWS RESPECT OF THE RELIGION NOT TO WATER IT DOWN WITH FALSE AND REJECTED TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES OF ANOTHER FAITH.*


> Parma:
> *I say all men and women are sikh*/ If everyone is not a sikh. Then how does the religion grow? Who is then? I gues its just you isnt it. The sikh religion has no space to grow. If that is the case then the intire sikh religion begins and ends with you then, because no one else is a sikh in your eyes unless they follow your views. *I follow the gurbarni.*
> 
> 
> ...


Parma, you don't follow Gurbani, you haven't cited one time any single pauri in Gurbani which supports your views. You are mischevious in defining teachings of Sikh religion. This is anti-Gurmat to call Sikh what is clearly not Sikh and thus confuse and further divide the Panth. The entire Sikh religion begins and ends with Guruji and in His sargun manifestation as Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, Panj Piares, Akal Takht and Khalsa Panth. It has nothing to do with anyone's personal opinions or sanatan Hindutva assimilation.

You do not even know what Gurbani teaches. All you do is espouse nonsense.


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## simpy (May 2, 2007)

Sahota said:


> -----
> What happened  to that 'sagal kee rainkaa' temprament.
> ------
> ------
> ...


 
*Respected Sahota Ji,*

*sagal ki reinkaa temptamaent is a Satyugi Gun, Not a common thing in Kalyug, in Kalyug this can happen only with GuruKirpa*


*tan man kaat kaat sabh arpee*
*vich agnee aap jalaaee.*

*Naam Simran, Kirtan, Shabad Vichaar iss rastay de moti ne chug laoo, vakt bahutaa nahee.......*

*forgive me please*


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## avt_1966 (May 3, 2007)

I don't think that  we sikhs have too much arrogance. sikhs are not harsh to others Rather they are comparatively polite.  Sometimes it depends upon the atmosphere in which one lives or works. Social status also makes a person polite or arrogant.  Actually when one psersn is at his/her top position or comparatively on higher position, and how he/she behaves with others and to what extent he make/maintains relations with others, this is the real test for him/her. If he behaves sensibly with others at this status he/she can never be avoided with any one.


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