# Caste, Race, Ethnicity And Sikhism



## Neutral Singh (Jul 30, 2004)

Some Sikhs claim that they do not believe in caste but in the same breath they claims to be a true Sikh of the Khalsa and also believe in racial differences amongst Sikhs ?

What are your views on...

1) Can you differentiate between caste , race, ethnicity etc in the context of Sikhism?
2) Is there a sinister campaign by castists to undermine Sikhism?
3) Can you believe in racial difference amongst Sikhs and still be a Sikh?


----------



## truth_seeker (Jul 31, 2004)

Human Equality in the Sikh Tradition 

The principle of human equality is an integral part of Sikh scripture and lived tradition. Statements affirming the inherent equal status of human beings were expressed by the first Sikh prophet-teacher, Guru Nanak (1469-1539), and recorded in the original sacred text of the Sikhs, the Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Nanak was the first in a lineage of ten Sikh Gurus who formulated the principles of religious liberty and freedom of association. He was a radical egalitarian who viewed differences based on birth as irrelevant to the sanctity of the individual. Guru Nanak taught there is one God and one creation, and that inherited differences have no meaning in the relationship between humans and God. In the Sikh religion there is no basis for discrimination in regard to caste, race, sex, religion or socioeconomic standing. Sikhs are enjoined by sacred ideals to assert a high standard of human equality, and be models of fairness and tolerance. 

The social context in which the Sikh Gurus taught was thoroughly colored with caste considerations. A hierarchy of caste relations existed in India for several thousand years before Guru Nanak, and this prejudice continues today. The division of society along caste lines was embedded in the social fabric of India as a way of ordering social roles and occupations. It was this social hierarchy that Guru Nanak repudiated. He rejected the notion that status ascribed by birth determines the rank of humans. 

In the foremost sacred text of the Sikhs, the Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak decries the existence of the caste system: "Caste is worthless and so is its name. For everyone there is only one refuge." Guru Nanak denied the accepted dogma that only higher castes could achieve spiritual liberation: "Recognize the light, do not ask about caste. Further on there is no caste." Guru Nanak's successors reiterated this anti-caste sentiment. For example, Guru Ram Das, the fourth Sikh Guru pronounced: "There are four castes and four stages of life, but the one who meditates on God is the most exalted." 

The compilation of the Guru Granth Sahib, arranged by the fifth Guru, Arjan, exhibits this non-discriminatory policy. Included in this exalted book are poems by Ravi Das, an outcaste leather worker, and poems by Kabir, a low-caste weaver. Both poets make a significant contribution to the Guru Granth Sahib despite their low social standing. 

In practice the Sikhs Gurus endeavored to break down the caste barriers. The early Sikh Gurus established the tradition of a free community kitchen called langar. This practice became an institution at Sikh places of worship. Every person, regardless of social status, is invited to eat the same food with everyone else while sitting side by side. No exclusion is permitted. The principle of human equality is demonstrated at every Sikh gathering through the practice of eating together without any accorded privilege. 

The tenth Sikh Guru, Gobind Singh, furthered the principle of equality by establishing the order of the Khalsa. The first five members of the Khalsa came from different caste backgrounds, and three were from lower castes. Though their caste ranking was mixed, Guru Gobind Singh asked them to drink from the same bowl, an act contrary to caste pollution rules. Furthermore, they were all given the same last name, Singh, in place of their family name, which would indicate their caste. Similarly, Sikh women were given the name of Kaur. 

The current Sikh Rahit Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct), which is the standard guide for the Sikh way of life enjoins the Sikhs to eliminate caste considerations: "Reject caste distinctions and untouchability." The Rahit Maryada also states that Khalsa initiation may be received regardless of caste, creed, or nationality. These statements affirm that caste discrimination has no place in modern Sikh society or Sikh ceremonies. Even though caste considerations are often taken into account for marriage among the Sikhs, this practice has no sanction in the Sikh religion. 

In Sikh tradition, there is no written or remembered authority, which denies women equal standing with men. This verse by Guru Nanak is the standard marker for gender equality: "Man is born from a woman, conceived in a woman, engaged and married to a woman . . . Kings are born from women, how can women be bad? From a woman, a woman is born. Without a woman, there is no one." In this verse, Guru Nanak is speaking against those who would value women less than men. In regard to current practice, the Sikh Rahit Maryada states there is no office or ceremony from which women are restricted. Although male gender bias survives in Sikh society through a preference for sons, discriminatory practice finds no support from traditional sources of religious authority. The Rahit Maryada also prohibits a cash dowry in return for the marriage of a daughter or son. The continuation of dowry practice has been contested by Sikh activists. 

As with caste and gender, the Sikh Gurus regarded the rich and poor with an equal eye. No preference was given to the wealthy over the dispossessed. Every Sikh has the same personal sovereignty, regardless of income. Again, the source is Guru Nanak: "The one who knows God sees equally, like the wind which blows alike over king and poor man." The Sikh community ideal is to create value through work and then give at least one tenth of the proceeds to charity. This is part of Guru Nanak's credo, kirat karo (create worth or earn) and vandh chako (share the results). Though Sikhs vary widely in terms of income, no preferential treatment is permitted for the wealthy in religious observances. 

Sikh teachings do not discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation. Universal tolerance is underscored by the inclusion of Hindu and Muslim poets, in addition to Sikh poets, in the Guru Granth Sahib. The tenth Guru, Gobind Singh, confirmed this attitude of religious equality by stating: "God is in the Hindu temple as well as in the mosque. God is addressed in both the Hindu and the Muslim prayer; all human beings are one though they may appear different . . . They are all of one form and one God has made them all." 

In the Sikh understanding, the apparent differences between caste or class, gender, or religion are irrelevant in the realm of the human spirit. To demean someone on the basis of color, creed, sex, or ethnic origin is contrary to the spirit of human fairness and equal judgement that the Sikhs Gurus' wisely envisioned. 

Could not have said it better!!


----------



## CaramelChocolate (Nov 21, 2004)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*

Well, they SHOULDN'T believe in this... But some do... I once had a female amritdhari call me a dog and a white *censored* amongst other names in Punjabi online. This is because a question I asked was blown out of proportion and taken in the wrong way, even though I did not ask her the question!

Muslims can be racist, Hindus can be, Christians can be...
We can have ideals but they are not always practiced unfortunately... Just remember that all this hate, anger, lust, violence is all part of kal jug.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


----------



## truthseeker (Nov 21, 2004)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*

That is horrible Caramel veerji, i too have had some silimar problems. My mother is punjbi but my fateh is black so i dont really look like an indain in anyway, my father is catholic soo growing up i always learnt about the Catholic faith and i even went to a catholic school, and then i would learn about Sikhi at home with my mom and attended the gurdwara very rarely but even tho im not that old i made the choice to become a sikh but even now, ppl that i kno make comments about ppl of other races/castes/ethnicities without even realising that they are making soo many rude comments. Is soo hard to think that kuljag has effected us in soo many ways yet most ppl dont even realise that it is takin other their mind, instead or accepting others they critisize them.


----------



## KDS (Dec 7, 2004)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*

Hello Gentlemen and Ladies,

I have observed some excellent rebuttles on the point of race and caste in Sikhism by one Randeep Singh who is a moderator on www.sikh-history.com. Despite abuse on these issues he has stuck firmly to his guns. I first came across this fellow in discussion on indiaculture.net and punjabi.net.


----------



## S|kH (Dec 7, 2004)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*

truthseeker...your half-black? 

that's so awesome, can you share more about what it was like growing up, and how it felt when you became a sikh and stuff, and I assume when you said you choose to be Sikh, you started growing out your hair.

Post pics!! 

I actually wish I was from 2 different ethnicities...than people can hold more grudges against me, like added-on to the caste-stuff.


----------



## Arvind (Dec 7, 2004)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*

Honestly, people like truthseeker are great inspiration for me, looking at the obstacles they continue to face (including those by narrowminded Punjabi mindset regarding castes/races/ethnicity etc), but still continue to chose the sikhi way on their own.

S|kh, my grudge against you is that you are not keeping sNavneet busy enough in philosophizing, and he is All there in the arcade, killing it thoroughly, day and night! Grrrrrrr!!!

Take care.


----------



## S|kH (Dec 7, 2004)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*

lol Sevadaar Singh,

I'm sorry, the whole God-topic that me and snavneet usually debate on requires long posts, time, and alot of thinking. I have final exams next week, so have been hardly on the site as much, and haven't had the time to sit and think and read his latest posts on that topic.

Don't worry, in a few weeks I'll revive those topics


----------



## Randip Singh (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: Caste, Race, Ethnicity etc. in the context of Sikhism?*



			
				Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Some Sikhs claim that they do not believe in caste but in the same breath they claims to be a true Sikh of the Khalsa and also believe in racial differences amongst Sikhs ?
> 
> What are your views on...
> 
> ...


 
Hi Aman and thank you for your kind words KDS ji,

This entire debate can be destroyed in one swift blow.

In Gurmukhi and Sanskrit, the word "Jaat" (or Zaat) is used to describe caste..........however the word "Jaat" can also mean race, ethnicity and even gender.

Illustrated by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji in:

Maanas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano

or 

Racognise the Human Race as one

So when you get certain people talking about the fact they do mot believe in caste (which is against Sikhism), but the believe in race/ethnicity (which Sikhism allegedly does not mention) they are talking utter rubbish.

What they are saying is that they believe in racism which Sikhism condems whole heartedly.

Just go to www.srigranth.org and do a search on caste or race and watch the word "Jaat" pop up. So caste and race/ethnicity are interchangable in the Sikh concept.

Sikhism believes in recognising diversity (i.e. we are all different), but we are all equal. That does not mean we should discriminate on this basis. We all have differing strengths and weaknesses.

There is a sinister campaign by racisits and castists. On the one hand by Brahminist groups who wish to undermine the Sikh faith, and on the other from with, from sites such as www.jattworld.com and www.ramgahiakom.com . Both have a twisted agenda to create division amoongst the Sikh Paanth. Jattworld in particular directly spreads venom and hatred, wheras the ramgharia one is more subtle and sinister.


----------



## Amerikaur (Jun 4, 2005)

I'm worried that the problems run deeper than the interpretation of Jaat/Zaat.

Sikhs are less than 2 percent of India's total population.  Yet, there are many Sikhs that rightly take a stand when the Indian goverment "forgets" about Sikhs.  Yet, some Sikhs refer to the panth as if it were all people of Panjabi ethnicity, "forgetting" that the panth is made up of all colors.

There are Sikhs that rightly take a stand against how turbans are being viewed and classifying all medium-toned people in the same prejudicial lot.  Yet some of the same refer to the rest of the world as "goray".

The problems that I think are in the caste system are extensive, as it seems to encourage mass-grouping and stereotyping of people...such as the belief  that one word can be a summation an individual entire personality and values.   Even worse is when such a belief shapes a pesron's vision of another, and all the person sees in another are the traits that support the stereotype.

But these bad habits go away as one learns to fight off moh, lobh, and ahankar.  If we fight these within ourselves, and look to others for advice, and inspire still others to do the same, eventually these earthly ills can fall away.


----------



## akd89 (Apr 27, 2006)

Very well said. 
*Sikhism *
*Thy Name is Love & Sacrifice* 
*God is love and love is God*. As God cannot be confined, restricted or limited to any particular creed, cult, race, *similarly Religion of love cannot be restricted or confined in geographical limits and boundaries.* Sri Guru Nanak Sahib's Religion of Love is cosmic and universal in its appeal, holy folds and dimensions.

*It is a Religion of perfect and universal Love totally free from man-made barriers of color, caste, creed and status. *
It is a Religion which radiates with a deep thirst for the Divine and
with the highest gospel of purity of heart, mind, body, speech and deeds.

*It is a Religion which establishes brotherhood of the whole global community irrespective of color, caste, creed, race and nationality purely on the basis and foundation of love and equality,all being the children of the same lovable God.*






			
				truth_seeker said:
			
		

> Human Equality in the Sikh Tradition
> 
> The principle of human equality is an integral part of Sikh scripture and lived tradition. Statements affirming the inherent equal status of human beings were expressed by the first Sikh prophet-teacher, Guru Nanak (1469-1539), and recorded in the original sacred text of the Sikhs, the Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Nanak was the first in a lineage of ten Sikh Gurus who formulated the principles of religious liberty and freedom of association. He was a radical egalitarian who viewed differences based on birth as irrelevant to the sanctity of the individual. Guru Nanak taught there is one God and one creation, and that inherited differences have no meaning in the relationship between humans and God. In the Sikh religion there is no basis for discrimination in regard to caste, race, sex, religion or socioeconomic standing. Sikhs are enjoined by sacred ideals to assert a high standard of human equality, and be models of fairness and tolerance.
> 
> ...


----------



## Prit paul kaur (Apr 8, 2007)

I as a Sikh believe ( and practice )in total equality:there is no place for caste ,class and creed based discrimination in Sikhism.But when it comes to marriage, people marry within the caste or community because they want to have spouses raised with same values and same socialization process.It has nothing to do with discrimination but simply because we as a  human being want to lead a comfortable life.


----------



## KiranC (Apr 29, 2008)

Prit paul kaur said:


> I as a Sikh believe ( and practice )in total equality:there is no place for caste ,class and creed based discrimination in Sikhism.But when it comes to marriage, people marry within the caste or community because they want to have spouses raised with same values and same socialization process.It has nothing to do with discrimination but simply because we as a  human being want to lead a comfortable life.


'have spouses raised with same values'

Surely if you are Sikh and your partner is Sikh you have been brought up with the same values?...to be Sikh and to follow Sikhi?


----------



## Sikh80 (Apr 29, 2008)

Prit paul kaur said:


> I as a Sikh believe ( and practice )in total equality:there is no place for caste ,class and creed based discrimination in Sikhism.But when it comes to marriage, people marry within the caste or community because they want to have spouses raised with same values and same socialization process.It has nothing to do with discrimination but simply because we as a  human being want to lead a comfortable life.



Very well said.


----------



## mkm (Apr 29, 2008)

all jio

My husband and I dont believe a bit in caste system, we make joke out of it. He belongs to Jatt family and I to Ramgarhya. He calls me jatt and I call him Ramgarhya and we laugh almost every day at caste system. We believe  that people who believe in this stupid embarrassing thing are frozen in old times. Cast system should be laughed at  loudly, it is evil:down:


----------



## Sikh80 (Apr 29, 2008)

Yes, it may not be good. But still, it does exist. One can laugh or smile  and reality cannot be discounted.  It has its own face value.


----------



## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2008)

mkm said:


> all jio
> 
> My husband and I dont believe a bit in caste system, we make joke out of it. He belongs to Jatt family and I to Ramgarhya. He calls me jatt and I call him Ramgarhya and we laugh almost every day at caste system. We believe  that people who believe in this stupid embarrassing thing are frozen in old times. Cast system should be laughed at  loudly, it is evil:down:



mkm ji

You lift my spirits!


----------



## KiranC (Apr 30, 2008)

mkm said:


> all jio
> 
> My husband and I dont believe a bit in caste system, we make joke out of it. He belongs to Jatt family and I to Ramgarhya. He calls me jatt and I call him Ramgarhya and we laugh almost every day at caste system. We believe  that people who believe in this stupid embarrassing thing are frozen in old times. Cast system should be laughed at  loudly, it is evil:down:


I totally agree...it is evil! Did you not have a problem with your parents saying anything about it though...did they just agree to it?


----------



## mkm (Apr 30, 2008)

KiranC said:


> I totally agree...it is evil! Did you not have a problem with your parents saying anything about it though...did they just agree to it?



KiranC ji

May be deep in their heart; but I cannot say.  I told them, I love him and wanted to marry him only. It was fine. Other people related to my family might have made a big deal out of it, if they were consulted, chance was never given. May be I was fortunate, you can say.


----------



## Lee (Jun 12, 2008)

Prit paul kaur said:


> I as a Sikh believe ( and practice )in total equality:there is no place for caste ,class and creed based discrimination in Sikhism.But when it comes to marriage, people marry within the caste or community because they want to have spouses raised with same values and same socialization process.It has nothing to do with discrimination but simply because we as a human being want to lead a comfortable life.


 

If you favour one spouse above another because of race or caste, no matter what other considerations that is indeed discrimination.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 12, 2008)

<<
If you favour one spouse above another because of race or caste, no matter what other considerations that is indeed discrimination.>>

i swear....i swear..!!!

i do not prefer one spouse over another..

LEe !!



u must be lucky to have a couple of them...


----------



## Lee (Jun 12, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<
> If you favour one spouse above another because of race or caste, no matter what other considerations that is indeed discrimination.>>
> 
> i swear....i swear..!!!
> ...


 

Hahahah no no not at all, my wife would kill me!


----------



## BHAGATSINGHDAVEER (Jun 30, 2008)

*gurfateh ji!,
i hold the opinion that those who control our institutions (sgpc et al.) have never actively preached against zaat/jaat. i have never in my years of hearing parchariks / gianis at gurdwaras etc condem the evil of the caste system. the most i hear is the usual historical account along he lines of "kaligdar sache  patshah ne ooch neech de perdh mithai" (the tenth guru eliminated the caste system etc). never has any giani told the sangat in strong enough terms to abstain from casteism/racism. who can forget incidents like  Moranwali village Gurdwara where 3 amritdhari singhs were asked to leave the langar hall because they were from the "cobbler" / chamar "caste". surely The Tenth Master himself must have wept from his holy abode. And what about Gurdial Kaur's body which was not allowed to be cremated at a "high caste" cremation ground at  Bholuwala village** because she was "dalit"?.  *


----------



## dalsingh (Jun 30, 2008)

BHAGATSINGHDAVEER said:


> *gurfateh ji!,
> i hold the opinion that those who control our institutions (sgpc et al.) have never actively preached against zaat/jaat. i have never in my years of hearing parchariks / gianis at gurdwaras etc condem the evil of the caste system. the most i hear is the usual historical account along he lines of "kaligdar sache  patshah ne ooch neech de perdh mithai" (the tenth guru eliminated the caste system etc). never has any giani told the sangat in strong enough terms to abstain from casteism/racism. who can forget incidents like  Moranwali village Gurdwara where 3 amritdhari singhs were asked to leave the langar hall because they were from the "cobbler" / chamar "caste". surely The Tenth Master himself must have wept from his holy abode. And what about Gurdial Kaur's body which was not allowed to be cremated at a "high caste" cremation ground at  Bholuwala village** because she was "dalit"?.  *




I agree. Not nearly enough is done to attack caste discrimination and the Panjabi Sikh community is torn between keeping cosy hierarchies in place and actually implementing a society that practices equality.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 1, 2008)

Neutral Singh said:


> Some Sikhs claim that they do not believe in caste but in the same breath they claims to be a true Sikh of the Khalsa and also believe in racial differences amongst Sikhs ?
> 
> What are your views on...
> 
> ...


 
Guru Piayario jio,

1) NO. SIKHI/Gurmatt is Universally for all.
2) YES definitely. Such campaigns began as soon as the Brahman realised that his position as "GURU JAGAT KA" was being challenged by the new GURU NANAK !! Bhagat Kabir Ji has already challenged the Jagat guru by saying..Brahman Guru Jagat Ka bhgatan ka nahin....and GURU NANAK began to put that into practise...
This anti-gurmatt campaign was carried on  using the Guru's families..sri chand's rebellion against Guru nanak Ji, dasu datu going so far as to KICK Guru Amardass ji in public.. Complaints to Emperor Akabar gainst Guur Amardass Ji...the torture and killing of GURU ARJUN JI for having compiled the AAD GRANTH...instigating the Emperor Aurengzeb against Guru Har rai, Guru harkishan Ji..and Guru teg bahdur ji..four wars of Gurugobind Singh Ji and then after 1708 DENYING the Gurgadhi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee by falsely claiming thet Guru Gobind Singh ji never passed away at nanded and instead "disappeared" to grant gurgadhi to a balak singh (Namdharees). This LAST action of DENYING GURGADHI of SGGS is the most dangerous act agaisnt Sikhi/Gurmatt of the Hosue fo nanak as it singlehandely demolishes SGGS as GURU. Recently this campaign ahs taken on another facet by bringing a secondary book as EQUAL to SGGS and insisting thet IF this "book" in its ENTIRETY is NOT ACCEPTED then its a negation of the Khalsa, the Amrit ceremony, the 5 kakaars, Nitnem Banis etc etc. This is an outright LIE..as no one is denying the Khalsa the 5 kakaars nitnem etc - ONLY objecting to the' Either ALL 100% or NOTHING" Hobsons choice on the book being offered.
3) Racial "differences" as in physical colour/shape of humans is a Natural thing.
Claiming to be superior or inferior due to race/colour height body shape etc is utter rubbish.
My two cents worth..
Gyani jarnail singh


----------



## Archived_Member5 (May 21, 2009)

I would content the contrary too has equal validity. The hostility towards Jatts by other castes insecure for personal reasons is also considered offensive yet Jatts have humility and are therefore too proud to say. I was raised in a strong community where each caste, religion and race was represented, hence my balanced outlook towards other races and the caste. I do find that the hostility towards Jatt is rarely spoken about in circles where the less than respect worthy use the race or caste card to their advantage to distract from other issues and compensate for their own lack of confidence, envy or insecurity. I refer here to Punjabi Sikhs.

With the advent of Sikh converts, Sikh Americans, Sikh Europeans etc, the adopted faith is given precedence over indigenous nationality or location. Caste or race issues do not arise amongst this new order but are firmly established amongst Punjabi Sikhs. The caste of class system if inherent in all civilised societies where one is placed at a rank in a stratosphere, be it company Janitor or head CEO. No matter and for what reasons many seek to eradicate caste and class systems they remain as each is assessed by his profession and social role.

A professional Khamboj, or an illiterate or uneducated Jatt, both have inherent racial traits time and a change of culture cannot erase. You may upon casting aside ingrained bias and prejudices aside find many other factors at play influencing a person’s casting, no pun intended, or blame upon his/her caste when so many other issues are motivating any adverse reactions to an individual. Each is the ambassador of his creed, caste and religion. To be the best and most honoured Khamboj, or a Rhamgharia misrepresenting culture and inciting unwarranted and poor reflection upon his faith, both speak greater in volume about the individual than the views he professes or exhorts.

Many Sikhs are émigrés in many host nations, leaving behind a ranking in their homeland to start afresh working in farm and menial jobs. Study and research indicate all acquire the inherent characteristics and attributes of their ranking in due time. We have monarch given honour from impropriety and scandal and former slaves of mixed racial backgrounds accorded the highest positions by their countrymen in their land. How does this honouring of the ignoble benefit society in any way. This is another point of discussion is sociological and psychological studies.


----------



## dalsingh (May 21, 2009)

> JeetiJohal wrote:
> How does this honouring of the ignoble benefit society in any way.


 
Jeeti, I would like to ask exactly how does one come to be labeled ignoble? Who is the expert on the matter? Who makes the decision? How are they qualified to do this? What is the purpose of designating such a title? I presume there must be a good one?

From what I understand one of the cores of Khalsa ideology is the concept of meritocracy. The Gurus in various way, especially in the form of Guru Gobind Singh emancipated their followers from the type of nonsense you are talking of . The truth is the people who defend casteism are usually simply panderng to their egos and self image of superiority or are attempting to retain some sort of perceived advantage in some man made hierarchy.

It is no coincidence that over the last few centuries, at places all over the globe the concept of equality has blossomed, albeit in a bloodsoaked and tumultuous way. I concede that this is a work in progress but the fact that equality is something aspired to, or recognised as a desirable state in most of the progressive world is telling. Sikh immigrants (like yourself) in countries that have legislation that should protect you from unfair discrimination should not turn around and fail to afford this same courtesy to others. Personally though, I can't see how any reasonable person would turn a blind eye to the discrimination and disgusting oppression that sometimes takes place in the Panjab under the guise of "Panjabi" casteism including sexual, physical and psychological abuse. But then this exactly highlights why this whole notion needs rigorous attacking in the first place, because it produces such inhuman characteristics. In terms of the Sikh communities progression, personal development and spirituality this is only an obstacle. 




> Sikhs are émigrés in many host nations, leaving behind a ranking in their homeland to start afresh working in farm and menial jobs. Study and research indicate all acquire the inherent characteristics and attributes of their ranking in due time.


 
In East London, traditionally Sikhs have been heavily involved in the building trade. I have been involved in this in the past. There you will see many people who I imagine would consider themselves as "high caste" working as lowly unskilled manual labour. These people are not superior in any way believe you me. If anything they should be grateful that people take the time to train them and teach them a trade to feed themselves and their family. Sikhism does empathise humility and casteism works directly against this. The truth is that 'your' ideas are, in reality, the result of the indoctrination of your family and others close to you, as well as the baser elements of Panjabi culture.

Established hierarchies, especially unjust ones, are challenged periodically, where ever they exist in the globe. We as Panjabi Sikhs are essentially the babies of such a movement against castesim and Moghul oppression. As a Sikh first and foremost, I implore you, please don't try and replace one set of egotistical jerks, who our ancestors, with great sacrifice, collectively managed to take down with another set from amongst us.

Read this extract of someone from a so called "high caste" background and a direct descendant of a Sikh warrior martyr of the 1700s.
*The needy alone deserve to be endowed with rare gifts*
_*What is the use of empowering those who are already powerful.*_
_*The house of Nanak is known for its compassion and generosity,*_
_*And [is] known as the protector of the needy and poor.*_

_*Those who belong to the various offshoots of lowly twelve subcastes,*_
_*And know nothing about the game of power politics.*_
_*Who are contemptuously known as rustic peasants in society,*_
_*Or known as traders small time shop keepers and petty fighters.*_

_*Those who belong to the low castes of blacksmiths and carpenters,*_
_*And the lowly placed tailors and wine vendors who receive his benediction.*_
_*This fraternity would also include the low caste cattle grazers, rustics and cow herds,*_
_*And the ignoble vegetable growers (kambojs) and scheduled castes.*_

_*Water carriers, barbers, small vendors and potters will also join this community,*_
_*Sainis, goldsmiths, sweepers and cobblers will form part of this brotherhood……..*_

_*…..I shall confer sovereignty on these poor and needy,*_
_*So that they may remember my patronage and benediction.*_
_*Saying this the True Guru challenged his followers,*_
_*That they should pick up swords and attack the Mughals. (Panth Prakash, page 79)*_​


> We have monarch given honour from impropriety and scandal and former slaves of mixed racial backgrounds accorded the highest positions by their countrymen in their land. How does this honouring of the ignoble benefit society in any way. This is another point of discussion is sociological and psychological studies.


 
Funnily enough there was a Sufi (Bulleh Shah, 1680-1757) who echoed similar views towards the Khalsa during the early part of their existence:
*"Perverse times have come,*
_*I know the mystery of the beloved*_
_*crows have begun to hunt hawks, *_
_*and sparrows feed on falcons*_
_*horses bear the whipping, *_
*while donkeys graze on lush green*
_*no love is lost between relatives, *_
_*be they younger or elder uncles*_
_*There is no accord between fathers and sons,*_
_*Nor any between mothers and daughters*_
_*The truthful ones are being pushed about,*_
_*the tricksters are seated close by*_
_*The front liners have become wretched,*_
_*the back benchers sit on carpets*_
_*Those in tatters have turned into kings,*_
_*the kings have taken to begging*_
_*O Bulleh, that which is His command*_
_*who can alter His decree."*_​Also
“*The Mughals quaff the cup of poison.*
_*Those with co{censored} blankets are up.*_
_*The genteel watch it all in quiet,*_
_*They have a humble pie to sup.*_
_*The tide of the times is in spate.*_
_*The Punjab is in a fearsome state.*_
_*We have to share the hell of a fate.”*_​Point is that we were once considered the ignoble, lowly ones.

Moo soch ke khol.......


----------



## Archived_Member5 (May 21, 2009)

Your rant is but that, a rant, it neither addresses any of the issues I have highlighted in my post, nor does it offer anything other than the usual barking of your ilk, Ussi hamesha moo soch ke kholde, apna band rahe to uchcha hain, loud mouths are perfectly able to shoot their mouths off and thereby bring disgrace upon Sikhs, I descend from an amalgam of good ordinary respectable folk. You may have much to hide, I do not. 

Ignoble, degenerates, immoral and devious persons masquerading as nobles, Ignoble, to lack honour, virtue, morality and be set high upon a mantle whilst oppressing and staining the good, sometimes whilst held by witchery devoices in their own homes. You may have an urgent need to curry favour with the rats in the locality, I don’t. 

Your verbiage against so called Sikh abuse is laughable, cite a source other than the bakwaas you have spewed here if you cannot provide valid reasoning. Spare me the meaningless poetry offerings and is you must, address the point in the post.


----------



## dalsingh (May 21, 2009)

Oh dear. Looks like I've struck a nerve. And your response is not a rant Jeeti?





> Ignoble, degenerates, immoral and devious persons masquerading as nobles, Ignoble, to lack honour, virtue, morality and be set high upon a mantle whilst oppressing and staining the good, sometimes whilst held by witchery devoices in their own homes. I descend from an amalgam of good ordinary respectable folk. You may have much to hide, I do not.


 

Since when has descent counted for much in Sikhi. The Guru's own descendants sometimes took antiSikh positions, but I guess your above such things? Judging by your comments you sound like some one who hasn't reallly mixed much with "ordinary" eveyday folk your highness. You should take a day off from your high horse and try it. Would probably do you a world of good.




> Ignoble, degenerates, immoral and devious persons masquerading as nobles, Ignoble, to lack honour, virtue, morality and be set high upon a mantle whilst oppressing and staining the good, sometimes whilst held by witchery devoices in their own homes. You may have an urgent need to curry favour with the rats in the locality, I don’t.


 
I don't really need to curry favour with ANYONE. "rats in the locality,", is that your view of everyday people? Very nice. What is it that gives you the authority to judge in this way, pray do tell?





> cite a source other than the bakwaas you have spewed here if you cannot provide valid reasoning. Spare me the meaningless poetry offerings and is you must, address the point in the post.


 
I thought you could appreciate contemporary comments by and on the Panth of old. But I guess, seeing as it contradicts your own supremacist views it is bakwas pan ji. 

I thought my reasoning was clear but I'll try and make it clearer. 

Try not to look down on others in the panth like you do as once upon a time people wrongly looked down at our own people as common rustic worthless folk. 

Would you not consider trying to relate to people instead of trying to elevate your status, presumably to feed your ego. There are better ways to develop your sense of self worth sis.


----------



## Archived_Member5 (May 22, 2009)

As Guru Nanak spoke these vermin who plot mans ruin, who connive to weave nets of illusory deception, concocted of falsehood and cunning, they are as the worms boring through the excreted dung of what remains of mankind. Be not judgmental they bleat as sheep when examined closely of their hypocrisy, bigotry and false accusing, whilst they dare to judge the Highest Power with the minds of dead sheep, the brains of unborn beetles, boast of God and his word as nonexistent incomprehensible, beyond the understanding of such lowly beings conferring their own sin diseased mean mindedness upon their own reflections staring back from the abysses where they seek ’’God’’.

‘’Get down from your high horse...’’ seems to my ear the boasting from a demagoguery of tyranny and aggrandized bekaarii’s  who actually mean ’we have engineered your destruction, taken away your Lord, shorn your crown, defamed your name, cast you into the farm of the iniquitous and debauched to be as fodder for the beetles of the demon king as he torments you into destruction, we have excluded you from the Sangat, attempted ardently to cast you into ignominy whilst setting each adulteress, wicked and your enemies high above you, we have eroded your faith, diminished your sanity yet you remains as pinnacle of wisdom and sense, we have engineered your oppression, contrived each onslaught against you, without such, saathi or sahara your life is but a wretched existence of suffering, struggle and an agonised mind. The demons openly boast of their witchery and devil worship whilst you suffer for their arrogant sinning, each ally you sought was poisoned against you, we have placed every obstacle to impede your escape from our clutches whilst we feed upon your power and have gained great wealth and laud. The religious who once honoured you, now attend at a distance as witnessers to your ruin, all others benefit and profit from your erstwhile labours and toil, you tire yet there is none to take up your shackle, you bleed yet find no-one to bind your wounds, you weep as they laugh at the injustice they have meted to you, no friend has availed you, your wisdom grants you not the victory that is yours, the demons win, in their high seats of power, lower than any bestial peasantry, they cackle with devilry as you crave death and are denied it, and yet you stand upright in your honour, upstanding in your righteousness, your dignity intact, your faith as indestructible as it was and is and will be eternally. 

What are ‘’high horses’’ Dal Ji ? Unbeknown to you. your mouth speaks the words of the wicked, sinful oppressors with power, devilry and laud. Yet you know it not, and I am bound to forgive you. I talk often of the Matrix film, yet have not to date watched it. White blacks fighting Love, Man waging war with Satan, God possessed by a devious harlot, I watched excerpts and found them a reflection of the battling and inner turmoil, emotional conflict that I endure. I cannot lower myself from my high horse, and would die than bow to any false powers masquerading as power seeking further my ‘’lowering’’, I would rather die. 

Seek not the cause for your ruin amongst the Sikhs or the sanctum of religion, but in the annals of politics, the corridors of monarchy, the chattels of the media. That is where lies mans, Saints and Gods ruination. But you would not dare. These times when irreligiousity becomes the norm whilst ordinates democratically elected are well protected not only by libel laws but treason and insurrection, whilst blasphemy laws disbanded to abet and aid them further. Look towards the evil crow of Windsor, previously a safari park, now a den of the vilest human vermin imaginable. That is where festers England’s ruin, not from the heavens of from those blamed. 

Compelled to respond, I will now exist this gathering of the good and wise if only for their protection. Bhul Chuk Maaf.This is undeniably an angry outburst and rant. Please pray I fully am able to remove my presence from these online forums. I feel my work is done, and my end nigh, I could not bear Sikhs or Punjab carrying any blame for the sins of other beliefs, maybe you need to be cast adrift, aside, away from your own people to better appreciate their worth and goodness, much appreciated.


----------



## dalsingh (May 22, 2009)

Seriously Jeeti. 

I tried reading your post but started dozing off after forcing myself to complete the first paragraph. 

If there was anyone who ever needed to take a chill pill............hhhmmmm.

Kuriay, kuttarh bun ke khuch nee milna!!

As for this:



> Maybe you need to be cast adrift, aside, away from your own people to better appreciate their worth and goodness, much appreciated.


 
Why? 

I love my people but this doesn't mean we can't collectively push to reflect and grow. *I am my people and my people are me*, all of them, the good, bad and the ugly. The high, the low. You are the one trying to create some sort of pedestal to exhalt yourself in some delusional fit of grandeur.

Come down and meet the rest of us "common folk", you might have a surprise and find people you can actually like or admire down here princess. 


ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਘਟਿ ਨ ਆਖੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
सभु को आखै बहुतु बहुतु घटि न आखै कोइ ॥ 
Sabẖ ko ākẖai bahuṯ bahuṯ gẖat na ākẖai ko▫e. 
Everyone says that God is the Greatest of the Great. No one calls Him any less. 

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਕਹਣਿ ਨ ਵਡਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
कीमति किनै न पाईआ कहणि न वडा होइ ॥ 
Kīmaṯ kinai na pā▫ī▫ā kahaṇ na vadā ho▫e. 
No one can estimate His Worth. By speaking of Him, His Greatness is not increased. 

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੂ ਹੋਰਿ ਜੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਲੋਅ ॥੩॥
साचा साहबु एकु तू होरि जीआ केते लोअ ॥३॥ 
Sācẖā sāhab ek ṯū hor jī▫ā keṯe lo▫a. ||3|| 
You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3|| 

ਨੀਚਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਨੀਚੀ ਹੂ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਚੁ ॥
नीचा अंदरि नीच जाति नीची हू अति नीचु ॥ 
Nīcẖā anḏar nīcẖ jāṯ nīcẖī hū aṯ nīcẖ. 
Those who are lowest of the low class, the very lowest of the low; 

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਡਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਰੀਸ ॥
नानकु तिन कै संगि साथि वडिआ सिउ किआ रीस ॥ 
Nānak ṯin kai sang sāth vadi▫ā si▫o ki▫ā rīs. 
Nanak seeks the company of those. Why should he try to compete with the great? 

ਜਿਥੈ ਨੀਚ ਸਮਾਲੀਅਨਿ ਤਿਥੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ॥੪॥੩॥
जिथै नीच समालीअनि तिथै नदरि तेरी बखसीस ॥४॥३॥ 
Jithai nīcẖ samālī▫an ṯithai naḏar ṯerī bakẖsīs. ||4||3|| 
In that place where the lowly are cared for-there, the Blessings of Your Glance of Grace rain down. ||4||3|| 


SGGS Ji Page 15.


----------

