# What Does Meditation Mean To You?



## Harry Haller (Sep 16, 2012)

Gurfateh

In another thread, I dismissed meditation, however, this could be just semantics, and I do not view myself as anti semantic, therefore, I concede that meditation is fully in line with Sikh philosophy, but, what form should this meditation take, and what should be avoided. 

Therefore, in an effort to define 'Sikh' meditation as opposed to say Yogic meditation, I would be very grateful if members could post their own definition of what meditation means to them, in very precise terms, and whether they believe it to be in line with Hukam, in line with Gurujis teachings. 

It is interesting to note that the following quote from page 28

ਜਿਨੀ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ 
 Jinī ik man nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā gurmaṯī vīcẖār.

is translated in two different ways by Bhai Manmohan Singh and Dr Sant Singh Khalsa 

according to Bhai Manmohan Singh

They who with single-mind, contemplate over God's Name and dwell upon Guru's teaching,

and Dr Sant Singh Khalsa

Those who meditate single-mindedly on the Naam, and contemplate the Teachings of the Guru,

Rather than view them as opposing and contradictory, it could be argued that meditation in Sikh terms is actually contemplation of the truth. Now I contemplate the truth constantly, before I came back into Sikhism, I was obsessed with the truth, the universal truth, the correct way to act in any given situation, to be able to act in a way that in hindsight you can look back and say, yup, that was the right decision, so, it can be said that this is my meditation, this contemplation, this effort to understand, to absorb, to stretch the muscles in my brain so that talking, thinking and acting with the truth as guide is second nature. 

As far as naam japping etc, the following is interesting


ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭਲ ਮੀਠਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
 The Yogi says that Yoga is good and sweet, and nothing else is, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਰੁੰਡਿਤ ਮੁੰਡਿਤ ਏਕੈ ਸਬਦੀ ਏਇ ਕਹਹਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ 
 Those who shave their heads, and those who amputate their limbs, and those who utter only a single word, all say that they have attained the spiritual perfection of the Siddhas. 

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਅੰਧਾ 
 Without the Lord, the blind ones are deluded by doubt.

I have to concede that the meaning I get from this is that chanting names and rituals alone are pointless, but I do sense an inference that chanting/rituals with the belief in Creator in mind, with Creator being the focus is acceptable. 

Therefore for someone to chant 'Waheguru' in a dark room, whilst thinking of Creator, is perfectly within Sikhism. We are not all the same, some of us are in tune with the whole chanting thing, some are not, but it appears all is equally Sikhi. 

To that end, What is your definition of meditation, and how does it make you a better Sikh, thank you.


----------



## Rory (Sep 16, 2012)

Interesting thread. I've been thinking about this myself over the past few days when I noticed that almost all resources for information/guides about meditation are authored by Hindus, yogis or Buddhists - all meditation guides, albums, etc. throw in a picture of the Buddha, or the symbol Ohm, or a picture of a Hindu deity, and it really throws me off. 
I feel like a firm view needs to be achieved on this topic, so I find this thread very relevant and important.

Looking forward to replies on this one.
:sippingcoffeemunda:


----------



## Navdeep88 (Sep 16, 2012)

Calming of the Senses, breathing in & out. A release of some sort. Personally, I feel like it's a Cleansing Routine. If we are asked to have busy Lives, to DO a Lot, in this Faith, then I think Mental, emotional clearing via meditation, is completely in Line w/ it. That is my opinion. 

**I also think Meditation & Simran are two totally different things. One is purely Physical, the other, is a Conscious effort to concentrate on Waheguru...


----------



## jsteji1 (Sep 16, 2012)

When we submit and read Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we cleans our thoughts, our mind, eventually our actions, in the form of impression and expression, our vocabulary when we speak, the way deal with issues of life, .... .

Ultimately we begin to reflect and we see our selves  in the mirror. The more we do this the more we evolve from the previous state of being. The key is faith and hope in the Guru's teachings to reach Akal Purakh. 

This is what meditation and simran means to me. 

The more you read Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji the more you reflect and more you evolve. and go to a higher level of understanding and become more and more humble.  



As one becomes more and humble you begin to learn more not only about you but also about all other beings, and you become more accepting of Hukam not be judgemental.

Just read Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and you will evolve to a higher level.

Ultimately you lose yourself and become Gurbani.

Guru Amar Das Jee says,

"Man tu jyote saroop hain apna mool pehchaan, Man har ji terey naal hai Gurmatti rang maan... ."

There is no argument in my mind.

You are wasting diminishing time of human life if you do not begin today.

In my humble understanding, we need to read Gurbani in Gurmukhi to really get the real meaning of why Guru ji says this way of that way; it is your personal effort to go beyond yourself.

Guru Rakha!


----------



## Luckysingh (Sep 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> In another thread, I dismissed meditation, however, this could be just semantics, and I do not view myself as anti semantic, therefore, I concede that meditation is fully in line with Sikh philosophy, but, what form should this meditation take, and what should be avoided.
> 
> ...


 
I'm really not sure how you view the two slightly differently worded translations mentioned as opposing or contradictory!!!
It could just be my own weakness, but I see them both as very similar!!

Maybe when you see the word 'meditate' it throws you off into thinking about a class or group of yogis or similar!
To me, I read both the passages with the exact same 'Message.'
I'm pretty sure that others who participate in some meditation, also read them both in the same way like me.


I do think as Navdeeepji has stated that meditation and simran are not exactly the same thing.
To me, I see meditation as a pre-tool that helps one to maximise their personal simran. 
I feel that the simran is more of the real deeper waheguru connection, but it has the meditation factor as an important element. 
A little like- you can't do simran without meditation but you can meditate without simran.
Personally, I also feel that simran is more of a sikhi element.

Others may think differently according to their approaches and personal experience, but what is* most important is the 'message' of the shabad and guru and connecting every part of your living body to it.*
-To me, that's what it's all about.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 17, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> I'm really not sure how you view the two slightly differently worded translations mentioned as opposing or contradictory!!!
> It could just be my own weakness, but I see them both as very similar!!
> 
> Maybe when you see the word 'meditate' it throws you off into thinking about a class or group of yogis or similar!
> ...



What is more important to you? your own self enlightenment? complete with all the rituals and chanting that tends to accompany the search for the truth? or just basic plain being a good human being, and being seen to be a good human being?

This is the question that I still feel is an issue both with every Sikh I have ever met, and plenty of forum members I come across. 

Let me give you an example that I think perfectly illustrates this.

I bought something of the internet, as I do often, once the transaction had been finalised, I got an email advising me of the sellers name, It was a very long elaborate Sikh name, the sort that is 'applied for' from a certain organisation. 

Anyway, a few days later my items arrived, and I noted one of them had a cross marked on the label, indeed, it failed testing. Looking at the original webpage, I noted the advert clearly stated tested and working. To cut a long story short, I am still awaiting a refund. 

Now my point is clear, it does not matter how elaborate your name is, how many paths you do in the morning, how much you meditate, and by this I mean, meditating, not contemplating, if you do not treat your fellow members of Creation, man and animal, with love and respect, then it is all, in my view, for nothing. In fact, I would go as far as to say, every Matha Tek, every prayer, every observation of every custom, every Akhand Path, every K, is absolutely meaningless, unless the teachings of Sikhism are shared with the rest of Creation. I have no time for religious types, observers, talkers, in my view, one sinner is worth a million of such, if only they treat people well, are honest, truthful, helpful. 

In my view, the meditators do it for themselves, the contemplaters do it for others


----------



## Archived_Member16 (Sep 17, 2012)

AS A MATTER OF INTEREST:

*PREFACE:*  "I didn't choose my life path; it chose me. As we allow our authentic selves to guide us, trusting our inner vision, our way emerges in bits and pieces. We find the path we're meant to walk in the same way that we walk over rocks to cross a stream, one step at a time." -  Meredith Young-Sowers

When I started WALKING my spiritual life path and  to find my true life purpose,  I  set the following objectives / goals for myself: 

To do  regular  naam  simran / meditation, seva & sangat   with total FAITH & limitless PATIENCE  ( under the direction and guidance of an experienced mentor / master / teacher and with Guru Ji's kirpa & blessings ) in order to   gradually    overcome    the five vices: Kam (Lust), Krodh (Anger), Lobh (Greed), Moh (Wordly attachment), Ahankar (Pride) - my personal weaknesses,   and  to replace them  and empower myself with Wisdom (gyan), Truthful Living (sat), Justice (niaon), Temperance (santokh), Patience (dhiraj), Courage (himmat), Humility (namarta) and  Contentment (sabar). Thus eventually to see GOD / WAHEGURU  in ALL HIS creation, regardless caste, colour, creed, gender, nationality or religion -  moving from religious to spiritual sphere.

This would enable and  prepare my ATMA to merge with PARAMATA  - my  original SOURCE  !

*CLOSE: *“Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” - ― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change


----------



## Rory (Sep 17, 2012)

> Now my point is clear, it does not matter how elaborate your name is,  how many paths you do in the morning, how much you meditate, and by this  I mean, meditating, not contemplating, if you do not treat your fellow  members of Creation, man and animal, with love and respect, then it is  all, in my view, for nothing. In fact, I would go as far as to say,  every Matha Tek, every prayer, every observation of every custom, every  Akhand Path, every K, is absolutely meaningless, unless the teachings of  Sikhism are shared with the rest of Creation. I have no time for  religious types, observers, talkers, in my view, one sinner is worth a  million of such, if only they treat people well, are honest, truthful,  helpful.


Some of the wisest words I've heard on this forum and something I've been waiting to hear from someone for a long time.


----------



## Luckysingh (Sep 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> What is more important to you? your own self enlightenment? complete with all the rituals and chanting that tends to accompany the search for the truth? or just basic plain being a good human being, and being seen to be a good human being?
> 
> This is the question that I still feel is an issue both with every Sikh I have ever met, and plenty of forum members I come across.
> 
> ...


 
Your point is not wrong or biased but it is nothing to do with meditation. 

To a person that meditates, they accept contemplation as the same. One does NOT participate in meditation and NOT do any contemplation- neither does one do all the contemplating but NO meditation. 
You speak as if a person does One or the other!!!- YOU ARE MISTAKEN-

The kind of sikhs with full bana, long spiritual names, big dumallas ..etc.. and a not so clean inside are everywhere- it is NOT the one's that meditate. 

I honestly thought you knew better, this is not the way we should behave. It's just like blaming ALL the black negroes for all the crime in London!!! You know that this is the dim view that some people have in UK, But your attitude doesn't seem any different!!


For a minute I thought you had done a U-turn by showing some respect to meditation.
However, your false slandering and blaming certain beings for an issue that is widespread doesn't do you any justice.
I could go around saying that ALL radhasoamis are false and fake, but I would be wrong to be judging people because of the sangat they are in!!!

Harryji, you need to be a little calm and accepting and realise that you cannot blame one group of people for all the problems in sikhism.

In effect what you are saying above is that ALL meditators only care about themselves, they are selfish, they have no love or respect for fellow humans...etc...etc..
Let me just say this- the person in your bad experience who has ripped you off, -I can guarantee that he does NOT meditate with his true heart. No human, who meditates and does simran for the truth would behave that way as far as I know.

COME ON, wake up a little and smell the coffee!
Your much better than that i'm sure. 
We all say things that can come across as wrong and rude, but we don't always mean them in such a way.
I'm sure you didn't really mean what you said.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 18, 2012)

Luckyji



> Your point is not wrong or biased but it is nothing to do with meditation.



Meditation, in my view, is on a par with weight lifting training. I am not saying there is anything evil about it, however, it is for the self. It is a selfish pursuit that has no interest in the rest of Creation. 



> To a person that meditates, they accept contemplation as the same. One does NOT participate in meditation and NOT do any contemplation- neither does one do all the contemplating but NO meditation.
> You speak as if a person does One or the other!!!- YOU ARE MISTAKEN-



Do they? Is Naam Japping contemplation? perhaps you could share with me your definition of meditation? what exactly is it that you do? Do you take a line, and repeat it? do you look up the meanings on Google? do you try and decipher what it means, do you look for signs to dig a bit deeper? what exactly is this meditation that you do that I have slandered so badly?



> I honestly thought you knew better, this is not the way we should behave. It's just like blaming ALL the black negroes for all the crime in London!!! You know that this is the dim view that some people have in UK, But your attitude doesn't seem any different!



Didn't Hitler meditate? uhm or was he a vegetarian? Im sure it was both!



> For a minute I thought you had done a U-turn by showing some respect to meditation.
> However, your false slandering and blaming certain beings for an issue that is widespread doesn't do you any justice.
> I could go around saying that ALL radhasoamis are false and fake, but I would be wrong to be judging people because of the sangat they are in!!!



I was under the impression it was just Creator and Creation I needed to respect, but first we need to define this meditation that I have slandered. 



> In effect what you are saying above is that ALL meditators only care about themselves, they are selfish, they have no love or respect for fellow humans...etc...etc..
> Let me just say this- the person in your bad experience who has ripped you off, -I can guarantee that he does NOT meditate with his true heart. No human, who meditates and does simran for the truth would behave that way as far as I know.



No one has ripped me off, I have strange ideas about a lot of things, but I say again, this argument is pointless until yourself, or someone else, explains, in detail, what exactly you get up to when you meditate. 




> COME ON, wake up a little and smell the coffee!
> Your much better than that i'm sure.
> We all say things that can come across as wrong and rude, but we don't always mean them in such a way.
> I'm sure you didn't really mean what you said.



I apologise again if I have offended you, however, your probably the only member of this club I can have a reasoned debate with without playing games, now please, pretty please, answer the question. 

Please describe in detail what meditation means to you. 

thank you


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 18, 2012)

I will wait for someone, anyone to post what they feel is meditation before getting ready  to eat my words :interestedkudi:


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 18, 2012)

Harry ji,
The real issue is whether you can you get rid of the rubbish you have already ingested, and have been accumulating from childhood, and get some fresh perspective on things, and be able to rinse and repeat. 

Your question(s) have already been answered on many threads. Look through them using the Search feature of the forum, located in the top right-hand corner.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2012)

Bhagatji

If you want to debate, then debate. If you want us to both just mock each other in posts, that works too, I have no questions, I am more than happy with my stance.


----------



## Luckysingh (Sep 19, 2012)

Harryji, I do get the impression that you are infact 'mocking'. 
I'm not sure if you are really looking for answers or anything to learn from with this thread, but sense that you just have the 'critical mode' on in action!

Firstly let me start with one of your quotes from above-



> Meditation, in my view, is on a par with weight lifting training. I am not saying there is anything evil about it, however, it is for the self. It is a selfish pursuit that has no interest in the rest of Creation.


 
This view of yours is the major obstacle, until you can't get out of this goggle vision, then you can't give yourself a chance to learn or understand what meditation or simran is. 
Firstly, your above quote tells anyone out there that your view is dim as I mentioned in earlier post. Now, l just want you to think for a minute here-
Then answer the following-

-Did you not learn to read and write when younger so that you could utilise your God given brain ??
- Were they not skills to help you develop in the outward world that we are exposed to ?
- Was not reading and writing the core skill needed and required so that you could maximise you learning capacity and maximise your brain usage ?
- Was it selfish to be able to learn how to read and write, when they are so many in the world that don't have this privelege ?
- Don't you consider yourself lucky that your main worry when a kid was probably more about how well you did at school, or what toys you wanted compared with millions of kids around the world that worry or just hope for a meal the next day for pure survival ??
- We are lucky to be given tools to help us develop and we take food and drink for granted which is essential for survival!


To myself, in the same way I view meditation as a skill, essential core, or a tool to help one maximise their inward journey. It helps you understand and develop your own personal spirituality. We cannot develop each others spirituality just as we cannot help develop each others learning skills.

Therefore, as you should see, it is nothing selfish or anything like a weightlifting activity!!

The lucky ones can pursue their inward journey without the need of tools. If Harryji, you are one of these, then consider yourself lucky and it will explain why you don't get it !!


If you cannot come to terms with this explanation to start with, then I don't think you will get any further progress.

It's the best way that I am able to put it, no offencepeacesignkaur


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 20, 2012)

Luckyji

I may have many ill informed ideas about what meditation is, that is why I have started a thread, its called 'what does meditation mean to you', I would like forum members to state in exact terms what meditation means to them, what is it that you do, now what is so hard about this? why is it that no member has actually stated what it is they do? It is not a real surprise I am reduced to guesswork as to what this involves, as other than the Vedic meditation practices, which are frowned upon in the SGGS, and the whole 3HO Kundalini yoga, which is equally as frowned upon (quotes available if needed), what is so different about this meditation/simran you all speak of?

Its a really simple question, all it needs is for some of us to be a bit less offended and a bit more pro active in sharing experiences.

Maybe instead of getting defensive and delving into my childhood, why not just post what meditation is to you, its very simple, that is all I have asked.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 20, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Bhagatji
> 
> If you want to debate, then debate. If you want us to both just mock each other in posts, that works too, I have no questions, I am more than happy with my stance.


Where have I mocked you?


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 21, 2012)

we have both mocked each other on the subject, mine tends to be more obvious than yours lol


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 21, 2012)

Maybe or maybe it is being misread.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 21, 2012)

lets face it, with our outlook, we could be here all day musing on the maybe's, nice day here today, hows the weather where you are? or you can pick any subject for our small talk


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 21, 2012)

Well did you have any subject in mind? :grinningkaur:


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 21, 2012)

hmmm, let me see, do you think adding chorizo and anchovies makes a better bolognese sauce? I have had good results with that, or hmmmm , ever tried rubbing lemon and salt on a pork belly, really crisps the skin, or hmmm, what do you do when you meditate?


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 21, 2012)

Haha I don't really eat meat or handle it... or cook. What do I do when I meditate? hmm... nothing really. I'm into raw fruits and vegetables. I love the crunch and the juices that are  naturally present in the food. You can't taste these juices when you cook them. Other than that I love Dal Makhani, Palak  Paneer and Shahi Paneer. You sound like a white dude. lol


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 21, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Haha I don't really eat meat or handle it... or cook. What do I do when I meditate? hmm... nothing really. I'm into raw fruits and vegetables. I love the crunch and the juices that are  naturally present in the food. You can't taste these juices when you cook them. Other than that I love Dal Makhani, Palak  Paneer and Shahi Paneer. You sound like a white dude. lol



Hmm I would rather the diet of a white dude than the diet of a goat! lol


in fact, I would rather eat the goat!

great this, isnt it, I feel we are really moving the boundaries of my knowledge on your meditation habits!


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 22, 2012)

I donno Harry ji, the diet of a white dude is pretty unhealthy (I'm thinking average American, not all white). Gotta be careful of what goes into the system. What you put in is what you get.

I don't think I could eat a goat. It would be too much like eating a pet dog or a pet bird in my case.

I'm glad your mind-made boundaries are being pushed. Does your mind do nothing sometimes? Does it give itself the permission to shut up/off sometimes? Or are you always contemplating?


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 22, 2012)

Bhagatji

The scary thing is if I started eating like you, I might start thinking like you, and that is very scary indeed!

I have three pet dogs, I have no qualms about eating meat

I think I can be at my happiest when my mind does nothing, and yes, it tends to contemplate a lot, in fact, at present it is contemplating a much needed personality shift, any suggestions?


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 22, 2012)

Harry ji,
That is because you associate your sense of identity with your thoughts. You associate Harry with the constant stream of thought in your head. Replacing those thoughts would be like replacing (read:killing) Harry.

I have a pet bird, I have no qualms about eating meat either. However, eating meat is different than eating an animal. For the "animalness" of the animal is divorced from the meat we know, when we purchase it at the grocery store or find it in fast food joints. Animalness of the animal is what makes it what it is, the goatness of a goat, the cowness of a cow, the dogness of a dog. After knowing the birdness of my bird, I don't think I could ever eat it. This is part of a much larger divorce we are experiencing with modern technology.

That explains the restlessness and agitation. What do you like about your current personality?

Here's what Sant Kabir does when he meditates. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-darpan/39141-bani-of-sant-kabir-das-2-a.html#post171799
"Does" is from our perspective, to Kabir it is rather an occurrence that occurs of its own accord.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 22, 2012)

> That is because you associate your sense of identity with your thoughts. You associate Harry with the constant stream of thought in your head. Replacing those thoughts would be like replacing (read:killing) Harry.



I am constantly killing Harry , today I will kill Harry and replace him with someone else, do you not find your core differing as your life changes? It is this process that I understand reincarnation to refer to in the SGGS. 




> I have a pet bird, I have no qualms about eating meat either. However, eating meat is different than eating an animal. For the "animalness" of the animal is divorced from the meat we know, when we purchase it at the grocery store or find it in fast food joints. Animalness of the animal is what makes it what it is, the goatness of a goat, the cowness of a cow, the dogness of a dog. After knowing the birdness of my bird, I don't think I could ever eat it. This is part of a much larger divorce we are experiencing with modern technology.



My shop is next door to a butcher, so I constantly view whole animals (dead) going in and being chopped up. I also buy all my meat here, so watching a man covered in blood chopping up a cow, leaves me in no doubt as to where and how the meat came to me. 
We yearn for a farm, and indeed that is what all the 16 hour days are for, Sian has bet me that if we had a pet pig (called porky), I would not be able to eat it, if it were reared from a baby. I am still not sure myself. 



> That explains the restlessness and agitation. What do you like about your current personality?



very few things distract me, very few things sing to me, but the things that do sing, own me. 



> Here's what Sant Kabir does when he meditates. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-g...tml#post171799
> "Does" is from our perspective, to Kabir it is rather an occurrence that occurs of its own accord.



this is not meditation, this is contemplation of the highest calibre


----------



## namjiwankaur (Sep 22, 2012)

_/|\_  Sat Nam

Harry ji

I think there are many ways to meditate.  The definition that works best for me is to bring complete focus to a single spiritual drop of Light & allow that drop to lead to the Ocean of Light.

I don't do well sitting for half an hour with an empty mind.  I use simran (Sufis call it zikr) to meditate.  Not when I'm sitting, but when I'm out and about.  I chant Names of God whenever I remember to.  Often I softly sing Names of God or things like "Allahu Akbar" if I'm alone in the house (no one else wants to hear my singing, that's for sure :grinningsingh: )

I feel remembering the Name awakens me (little by little) & when I am in a more awake/conscious state, I see MySelf everywhere. I often have interesting experiences if I chant silently with my prayer beads when I'm out with the dog.  Wild animals come close to me.  To me that is a conversation with God and the reward for simran/zikr is not mine.  It is God experiencing God through me.  By meditation, I can dust my self off my Self and relate to the world more through the soul than from the ego.

I will be trying some new forms of meditation in the near future, God'dess willing. I am planning to try meditating with a Science of Spirituality group.  I am also hoping to begin working with mantras like Om-Amun-Ra-Ptah.  This is an ancient Egyptian mantra which is the totality that is Neberdcher (God/Allah/Brahman/SatNam/YHWH).  

Muata Ashby, like many sages, teaches that by chanting Names of God, we work with vibrations (sound current) that cause us to become enlightened.  I would love to experience nirvana in this life time (I've never been the patient type :grinningsingh: ).  But I think once ppl are awakened, they are no longer chained to body or the ego or the limited self expressed in creation.  All shines with Divine Light at that point.  That Light-Love is all that exists.  The less I see a stranger on the street, the more I can touch hearts, if it is to be part of the journey for me.

Sorry for such a long post.  I need to work on being more concise.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 22, 2012)

namji{censored}aur said:


> _/|\_  Sat Nam
> 
> Harry ji
> 
> ...



Bhenji

you are extremely spiritual, far more than me. There was a time I could have embraced what you have written, but not any more. Beautiful post though.......


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 23, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I am constantly killing Harry , today I will kill Harry and replace him with someone else, do you not find your core differing as your life changes? It is this process that I understand reincarnation to refer to in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


Our core remains the same over time. Transformation of thoughts and beliefs, and bodily changes do occur.




> My shop is next door to a butcher, so I constantly view whole animals (dead) going in and being chopped up. I also buy all my meat here, so watching a man covered in blood chopping up a cow, leaves me in no doubt as to where and how the meat came to me.


I mean we can look at whole chicken or turkey in the fridge and we know it came from a chick or turkey but even then we don't know the animalness because it is stripped off when the animal is slaughtered. Further processing just makes it worse.


> We yearn for a farm, and indeed that is what all the 16 hour days are for, Sian has bet me that if we had a pet pig (called porky), I would not be able to eat it, if it were reared from a baby. I am still not sure myself.


You probably could but it would seem very unecessary to do so over a bet or for a pleasant meal, both of which would only be pleasurable for a short burst of time.


> very few things distract me, very few things sing to me, but the things that do sing, own me.


That's good, and what do you not like about it?




> this is not meditation, this is contemplation of the highest calibre


You are right, it is contemplation of the highest calibre, it's just a really long way of saying meditation. Such a contemplation is devoid of thought. Afterall, the subject of contemplation, God, does not lend Himself well to a thinking mind. It is better to think of God than to think of other things but it is much better to relinquish thought in meditation on God, i.e. first there is contemplation on the world, then on God, once contemplation reaches a point where the individual can no longer formulate thoughts on God (because all such thoughts have been exhausted, not that thoughts are ever exhausted they can keep going, but the individual realizes the futility of further thought) then it is said to be of the highest calibre. Thought while giving us the illusion that it is getting somewhere with God, just goes in really long circles, ie keeps us stuck in a loops, that are difficult to detect. Stepping out of the loops would be "thinking" of the highest calibre but it is no longer thinking anymore. From this place then comes out writing, speech, action and wisdom of the highest calibre.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 24, 2012)

> That's good, and what do you not like about it?



I would prefer to be free



> You are right, it is contemplation of the highest calibre, it's just a really long way of saying meditation. Such a contemplation is devoid of thought. Afterall, the subject of contemplation, God, does not lend Himself well to a thinking mind. It is better to think of God than to think of other things but it is much better to relinquish thought in meditation on God, i.e. first there is contemplation on the world, then on God, once contemplation reaches a point where the individual can no longer formulate thoughts on God (because all such thoughts have been exhausted, not that thoughts are ever exhausted they can keep going, but the individual realizes the futility of further thought) then it is said to be of the highest calibre. Thought while giving us the illusion that it is getting somewhere with God, just goes in really long circles, ie keeps us stuck in a loops, that are difficult to detect. Stepping out of the loops would be "thinking" of the highest calibre but it is no longer thinking anymore. From this place then comes out writing, speech, action and wisdom of the highest calibre.



Now all this I agree with. Now let us say that for one reason or another I have decided there is no gain to Creation from such. When I leave my house in the morning, what is most important to me is that every chance, every opportunity that comes my way to assist Creation is taken and used. Such opportunities are everywhere, from picking up a piece of litter, to letting a car out of a side street in heavy traffic, etc etc. 

Now my first point is that such contemplation should be ongoing, 24/7, just as one does not pick the best time to give to Creation, surely, picking a time to meditate, is like saying, well I will only assist Creation in the morning, between midday and 2pm, and after that, I can do what I wish. If anything, I am for meditation, but as a way of life, a permanent state of mind, I find the whole concept of making a time and place to get closer to Creator strange, it reminds me of those that practice rituals to get closer to God, but at all other times, anything goes. 

A person can learn wonderful things, much wisdom and understanding, but to Creation, to the fellow crying on the corner, the child that has missed his bus, the car that no one will let out, it is all meaningless how wise or what understanding you have, I find the state of giving, of being responsible, or being a sewadar to the world, brings me more peace and understanding of my place in the world than contemplating the unknown, I find it brings me closer to the unknown, that I do it, whilst contemplating the unknown, means that I have some level of harmony,  The contemplation is a side dish to my sewa, respect to those whose sewa is a side dish to their contemplation, I do not think this is a right or wrong scenario, for anyone


----------



## BhagatSingh (Sep 24, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I would prefer to be free


Well you didn't cooperate at your other meditation thread but I'll repeat it again: just rid your consciousness of the all content, thoughts, emotions, constant killing of Harry, etc. and inhabit your body.



> Now all this I agree with.


Ok so now we can have a debate. We can build up on this.



> Now let us say that for one reason or another I have decided there is no gain to Creation from such.


Creation is not some entity out there, far away in teh distance. It is you.

But ok. Let's take this silly idea and run with it. Let's say Creation is only what is out there, and has nothing to do with what's here.



> When I leave my house in the morning, what is most important to me is that every chance, every opportunity that comes my way to assist Creation is taken and used. Such opportunities are everywhere, from picking up a piece of litter, to letting a car out of a side street in heavy traffic, etc etc.





> Now my first point is that such contemplation should be ongoing, 24/7,


Those are decent goals to aim for. Like aiming for Tiger Woods' level in Golf.



> just as one does not pick the best time to give to Creation, surely, picking a time to meditate, is like saying, well I will only assist Creation in the morning, between midday and 2pm, and after that, I can do what I wish.


You gotta start somewhere.



> If anything, I am for meditation, but as a way of life, a permanent state of mind, I find the whole concept of making a time and place to get closer to Creator strange,


How's that strange? You make a time and place for eating and taking a dump don't you?

I am sure Tiger Woods had a routine, a certain discipline, before he got that good at golf.



> it reminds me of those that practice rituals to get closer to God, but at all other times, anything goes.


No that's not at all true. "at all other times, anything goes." Who are you getting this from?



> A person can learn wonderful things, much wisdom and understanding, but to Creation, to the fellow crying on the corner, the child that has missed his bus, the car that no one will let out, it is all meaningless how wise or what understanding you have,


What are you supposed to do in those situations?



> I find the state of giving, of being responsible, or being a sewadar to the world, brings me more peace and understanding of my place in the world than contemplating the unknown, I find it brings me closer to the unknown, that I do it, whilst contemplating the unknown, means that I have some level of harmony,  The contemplation is a side dish to my sewa, respect to those whose sewa is a side dish to their contemplation, I do not think this is a right or wrong scenario, for anyone


That's fine, it's all about one's inner peace. Afterall, if seva did not bring us pleasure we would not do it.


----------



## Luckysingh (Mar 19, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I would prefer to be free
> 
> 
> 
> Now all this I agree with. Now let us say that for one reason or another I have decided there is no gain to Creation from such. When I leave my house in the morning, what is most important to me is that every chance, every opportunity that comes my way to assist Creation is taken and used. Such opportunities are everywhere, from picking up a piece of litter, to letting a car out of a side street in heavy traffic, etc etc.


 
This is what we are all supposed to be doing without even making an effort. It is NOT something done at other times or when you are NOT meditating




> Now my first point is that such contemplation should be ongoing, 24/7, just as one does not pick the best time to give to Creation, surely, picking a time to meditate, is like saying, well I will only assist Creation in the morning, between midday and 2pm, and after that, I can do what I wish. If anything, I am for meditation, but as a way of life, a permanent state of mind, I find the whole concept of making a time and place to get closer to Creator strange, it reminds me of those that practice rituals to get closer to God, but at all other times, anything goes.


 
Why is takining some time out in any way strange ??
You take time out to participate on this forum.
You take time out to read the news and learn about what has been happening.
You take time out to wash yourself, everyday I would hope.
You take time to eat and drink as well as urinate and excrete.

Living is all about doing tasks that keep us active, alive and alert.
Taking 30 minutes to try and go within yourself and find what is underneath you is NOT strange or odd in any way.
It's all part of the huge learning process.




> A person can learn wonderful things, much wisdom and understanding, but to Creation, to the fellow crying on the corner, the child that has missed his bus, the car that no one will let out, it is all meaningless how wise or what understanding you have, I find the state of giving, of being responsible, or being a sewadar to the world, brings me more peace and understanding of my place in the world than contemplating the unknown, I find it brings me closer to the unknown, that I do it, whilst contemplating the unknown, means that I have some level of harmony, The contemplation is a side dish to my sewa, respect to those whose sewa is a side dish to their contemplation, I do not think this is a right or wrong scenario, for anyone


 
All the sewa and helping ..etc.. is to be done in addition to meditating, NOT instead of!!
What is contemplating the unknown exactly ?
Isn't it about having a faith and having some faith for it.
Then why isn't meditating a part of this??


I think you are too involved in 'inclusion and exclusion.'
Because of this, it gives you satisfaction and stability in trying to find reasons to rightfully exclude !!

winkingmundawinkingmunda


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 23, 2015)

Luckysingh said:


> This is what we are all supposed to be doing without even making an effort. It is NOT something done at other times or when you are NOT meditating
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well said lucky ji.

Hope your doing well my friend


----------



## Luckysingh (Mar 23, 2015)

forum sequencing is a little topsy turvy because the above reply is from over 24 months ago not last week !!

ANYWAY...whilst on subject..........I can say that the ONLY Seva that can get you to the ultimate TRUTH -Akal Purakh is HIS Naam Jap/meditation/simran.

All other seva that is talked about earlier is all 'Samaajh' seva and in maya for the Creation and not the Creator.


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

Luckysingh said:


> forum sequencing is a little topsy turvy because the above reply is from over 24 months ago not last week !!



ahh, no someone has bumped the thread, made it live again!



Luckysingh said:


> ANYWAY...whilst on subject..........I can say that the ONLY Seva that can get you to the ultimate TRUTH -Akal Purakh is HIS Naam Jap/meditation/simran.



you mean mumbling?


----------



## Luckysingh (Mar 23, 2015)

no...don't know what mumbling is or has to do with what I said.


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

Luckyji

please define HIS Naam Jap/meditation/simran so that an idiot like me can get educated

btw you look very blurry, its true!!! it does make you go blind!


----------



## Luckysingh (Mar 23, 2015)

You have been a member here for over 4 years so if you never come across those terms on the threads or in gurbani, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

But you are probably just doing "pakhand" !!......whereas I have no intentions of fooling myself or anyone else with pakhands.


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

Luckysingh said:


> You have been a member here for over 4 years so if you never come across those terms on the threads or in gurbani, then there is something fundamentally wrong.



why do people keep telling me there is something fundamentally wrong with me, you, that policeman this morning, the doctor yesterday, I could go on.

yes, I have come across these terms, allow me to give you my understanding as you have refused to enlighten me

Naam Jap-mumbling the same word again and again and nothing else
Meditation-mumbling the same word, or sometimes different words to get an inward high
Simran-mumbling the same word, or sometimes different words to please god



Luckysingh said:


> But you are probably just doing "pakhand" !!......whereas I have no intentions of fooling myself or anyone else with pakhands.



The desire for clarification does not make me a Pakhandi....


----------



## Luckysingh (Mar 23, 2015)

well, there you go................you do have your own definitions !
However, gurbani doesn't say anything about your word 'mumbling'......but it does say a lot about _'sift salaah'_

I'm not gonna judge how or where you have bettered yourself, or overcome some degrees of your 5 thieves. If your closed mind of avoiding mumbling has helped you, then that's good for you....keep it up

But in my case, the _sift salaah_ has helped me conquer large chunks of my own 5 vices.. So, I have no other desire but to further my pursuit.


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 23, 2015)

Luckysingh said:


> 'm not gonna judge how or where you have bettered yourself, or overcome some degrees of your 5 thieves. If your closed mind of avoiding mumbling has helped you, then that's good for you....keep it up



No, the sad thing is that I was closer 2 years ago, now they work for me, its not ideal, but its better than me working for them!

The mumbling does keep them at bay during the mumbling, no doubt about that, its what happens when the mumbling is over.


Luckysingh said:


> But in my case, the _sift salaah_ has helped me conquer large chunks of my own 5 vices.. So, I have no other desire but to further my pursuit.



hey good for you, and I mean that, all this thread was trying to do was share in exact detail what you do and how it works!

now I understand pakhandi, you think I am trying to convert you? others? to my way?

please do not be ridiculous, my path is for madmen only. However, there are so many words with so many meanings, all I am doing is playing devils advocate, nothing more, nothing less. 

good to see you again


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Mar 23, 2015)

Luckysingh said:


> well, there you go................you do have your own definitions !
> However, gurbani doesn't say anything about your word 'mumbling'......but it does say a lot about _'*sift salaah'*_
> 
> I'm not gonna judge how or where you have bettered yourself, or overcome some degrees of your 5 thieves. If your closed mind of avoiding mumbling has helped you, then that's good for you....keep it up
> ...



Lucky ji,


Guru Fateh,

Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you understand by the phrase '_*sift salaah'*_?  

Could you also quote the whole shabads from the SGGS to make us understand what you mean when you use '*sift salaah'?*


Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Luckysingh (Mar 23, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Lucky ji,
> 
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> ...


 

I understand it as it is done in practice = 'praise'
Pauri 25 Japji.


----------



## chazSingh (Mar 24, 2015)

Harry Ji,

myself, Lucky Ji or anyone doing naam japna have no interest anymore in trying to make you understand or believe or buy into the idea of this Seva called Simran.

every time it is mentioned you ask us what we mean by naam japna, meditation, simran etc etc...
after all the past topics on the subject and all the 'going back and forth' with explanations and trying to explain, you are still asking the same question...

For what purpose are you asking the question over and over? is it so that we say something you can then use to bash us with? are you trying to convince yourself? is it because what we say doesn't go inline with your view of sikhi?

the person drinking a glass or Orange juice doesn't need to keep trying to convince another person that it is Sweet and Tangy....it is up to the other person to pick up the glass and try it for him/herself.

We are already tasting the juice...its sweet...very sweet...come and join us if you want to 

if you want clarification, no amount of explanations of Simran and the journey within will make it clear to you...the only way you will be clear as to the taste of Juice...is to drink it..


----------



## japjisahib04 (Mar 24, 2015)

Luckysingh said:


> I understand it as it is done in practice = 'praise'
> Pauri 25 Japji.


But Luckysingh jee as per gurmat 'sifat salah' stands for 'ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹਣੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਸੋਈ ਜਪੁ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੀਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਪੂਰ ਗਿਆਨਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ to praise is to follow laws of nature which is the will of God and will of God is to emulate His virtues and then transmit same to our sensory organs. Just understanding is not enough.


----------



## N30S1NGH (Mar 25, 2015)

Sikhi is middle path(not one extreme nor another) emphasis on meditation-dhian but more importantly focus on effortless/spontaneous meditation/awakening (sehaj dhian) so one does not get caught up in meditation with effort and turns that into dogma. But that does not mean meditation with effort is discouraged or rejected. In fact, for most of us with effort stages comes the stage sikhi talks sehaj dhian with ultimate stage- sehaj nirvikalpa samadhi* (spontaneous unbroken effortless thoughtless meditation)

Here is indication- by blocking mental noise in our head- conditioned mind/its thoughts. We enter the stage of just listening intuitively/awareness from that stage- one's surti(consciousness/intuitive awareness) gets drawn drawn to sehaj dhian- shabad resonance/awareness/shabad gyan-intuitive divine knowledge

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥

Suṇi▫ai lāgai sahj ḏẖi▫ān.
By Listening-intuitively one spontaneously starts to meditate/contemplate deeply.

*ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥ जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥ Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,

ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥ तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e. then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 26, 2015)

N30S1NGH said:


> Sikhi is middle path(not one extreme nor another) emphasis on meditation-dhian but more importantly focus on effortless/spontaneous meditation/awakening (sehaj dhian) so one does not get caught up in meditation with effort and turns that into dogma. But that does not mean meditation with effort is discouraged or rejected. In fact, for most of us with effort stages comes the stage sikhi talks sehaj dhian with ultimate stage- sehaj nirvikalpa samadhi* (spontaneous unbroken effortless thoughtless meditation)
> 
> Here is indication- by blocking mental noise in our head- conditioned mind/its thoughts. We enter the stage of just listening intuitively/awareness from that stage- one's surti(consciousness/intuitive awareness) gets drawn drawn to sehaj dhian- shabad resonance/awareness/shabad gyan-intuitive divine knowledge
> 
> ...



this is a duplicate post that you also posted on a different thread, is there an agenda here?


----------



## Harry Haller (Mar 26, 2015)

but while we are on the subject, you seem to posting random lines from the SGGS, this is no way to make a point, you seem quite educated and intelligent, why would you quote random lines to make a point when you clearly know that each shabad needs to be understood in its entirety rather than interesting soundbites. If we are playing the  one line to prove everything game, then we must give up fish for a start, although no doubt, some probably have..


----------



## N30S1NGH (Mar 26, 2015)

I was just sharing what meditation means to me based on my limited understanding on sikh theology. Both threads were quite similiar to me as i have same thoughts about it.



> but while we are on the subject, you seem to posting random lines from the SGGS, this is no way to make a point, you seem quite educated and intelligent, why would you quote random lines to make a point when you clearly know that each shabad needs to be understood in its entirety rather than interesting soundbites. If we are playing the one line to prove everything game, then we must give up fish for a start, although no doubt, some probably have..



According to my understanding, this is not random lines from sggs there is deep framework behind it, especially in japji sahib where -sunaie and manan pauari are broken down into sunaie (just listening) intuitively inner divine guidance and manan (contemplating and applying).


----------

