# What Does Sikhi Teach About Attitudes Towards Infidels?



## badshah (Jan 14, 2014)

Hi

What does Sikhi teach about attitudes towards infidels(non believers in God)?

Please can someone share their thoughts on this?

Thanks


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## aristotle (Jan 14, 2014)

> in·fi·del
> n.
> 1. Offensive An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam.
> 2. One who has no religious beliefs.
> ...



The Abrahamic notion of _infidelity_ is relative, a Christian is an infidel in eyes of a Muslim, Christians consider Hindus infidels and so on.....(I may be wrong, I don't vouch for this).

When it comes to the _ attitude_ of Sikhs towards Non-Sikhs, what better example can I give of Guru Nanak Sahib having a (so-called) lowly Muslim _Mardana_ as his mate during his _Udasees_, Gurus having Non-Sikh balladeers _Natha & Abdullah_ in their courts, and Guru Granth Sahib having the _bani_ of people from many faith and spiritual traditions. I mean what scope does it leave for any explanations?


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## Ishna (Jan 14, 2014)

Although Sikhi doesn't have anything to say about _infidels_ (non-Sikhs) it does talk about slanderers and faithless cynics.  I don't know if that's suitably related?


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## aristotle (Jan 14, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Although Sikhi doesn't have anything to say about _infidels_ (non-Sikhs) it does talk about slanderers and faithless cynics.  I don't know if that's suitably related?



This is a very appropriate query Ishna Ji, this is a question that frequently comes to my mind.

I'll try to share as much I feel I'm confident with. 

* What I feel is, wherever the adjectives of _Manmukh(ਮਨਮੁਖ), Duhaagan(ਡੁਹਾਗਣ), Saakat(ਸਾਕਤ)_ have been used in the Gurbani they are shown in direct contrast to the Gurmat principles, in other words, they are used as a method of poetic contrast. Most of such Shabads end with the exaltation of _Naam_, Truthfulness and _Gurmat_, and that is pricesly what is meant by the use of these examples/words.

* Then there are portions of the bani where Gurbani authors use the negative and lowly epithets for themselves too.
For example,

-In the Jap Ji Sahib Pauris with the refrain of ਅਸੰਖ which describe the many facets of the Creator's nature, Guru Nanak Sahib ends the Pauris with 


> ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
> What power have I to describe Thine doctrines (Thee)?
> 
> ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
> ...



But in the Pauri which talks of thieves, ignorants and wrongdoers, Guru Sahib calls himself _ Nanak the lowly_



> ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
> Nanak, the lowly, gives description.
> 
> ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
> ...



Read this tuk by Bhagat Ravidas,


> ਮੇਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਕਮੀਨੀ ਪਾਂਤਿ ਕਮੀਨੀ ਓਛਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥
> My social status is low, my ancestry is low, and my life is wretched.
> 
> ਤੁਮ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦ ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥੫॥੬॥ I have come to Your Sanctuary, O Luminous Lord, my King; so says Ravi Daas, the shoemaker. ||5||6||
> ...



Gurbani is composed entirely in poetry, and uses multiple figures of speech, so  like any other form of poetry, the spirit of Gurbani too can only be understood only if the Shabad/Bani/Pauri is read in its entirety.

As far as I have experienced the Guru Granth Sahib and Sikhi principles, Sikhs are not encouraged or called to look down upon other faith traditions or 'non-believers', instead Sikhism advocates a free discourse. The heterogeneity of Gurbani authors is a shining example of that.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 14, 2014)

badshah said:


> Hi
> 
> What does Sikhi teach about attitudes towards infidels(non believers in God)?
> 
> ...



I do not believe in 'God' and I am a Sikh, what exactly do you mean by 'God'?


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## badshah (Jan 14, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I do not believe in 'God' and I am a Sikh, what exactly do you mean by 'God'?



Sorry we cannot define God, it is beyond any definition


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 14, 2014)

SAKAT sang na keejeyeah..DONT have Company with the SAKATS..thsoe who dont beleive in Him...the Creator.  This is the Gurmatt position vis a vis those who deny the Creator. There are no infidels in Gurmatt...


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## Harry Haller (Jan 14, 2014)

badshah said:


> Sorry we cannot define God, it is beyond any definition



untrue, God is defined in several religions, Sikhism is one of the few that do not, I need to know what your definition of God is, the abrahamic God? The Vedic God?


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## badshah (Jan 14, 2014)

harry haller said:


> untrue, God is defined in several religions, Sikhism is one of the few that do not, I need to know what your definition of God is, the abrahamic God? The Vedic God?



I already told you, God is beyond a definition, it does not affiliate with anyone

You can give it any name, tree, brick, cloud, dihuh677681bxyjij .......... but no one can define it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUBMDUgJ9J4


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## Harry Haller (Jan 14, 2014)

badshah said:


> I already told you, God is beyond a definition, it does not affiliate with anyone
> 
> You can give it any name, tree, brick, cloud, dihuh677681bxyjij .......... but no one can define it
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUBMDUgJ9J4



the christians seem to think they have, should I tell them or shall I leave that to you?


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## badshah (Jan 14, 2014)

harry haller said:


> the christians seem to think they have, should I tell them or shall I leave that to you?



Erm, what does SPN think?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 14, 2014)

You seem to be struggling, allow me to make it simple

you cannot ask what Sikh attitudes to infidels are, without first defining infidels, so, if we define infidels as those that do not believe in god, which god? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God



although as you stated we cannot define god, we do however have attributes even in Sikhism, as stated in Mool Mantra, I think what you are trying to refer to is knowing god, rather than describing god


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## badshah (Jan 14, 2014)

harry haller said:


> You seem to be struggling, allow me to make it simple
> 
> you cannot ask what Sikh attitudes to infidels are, without first defining infidels, so, if we define infidels as those that do not believe in god, which god?
> 
> ...



When I say God, I mean God of all gods, the God that made all of the other gods........

I did not know that there is more than one God, please explain, thanks

There is only one God, Hindus call him Bagwaan, Westerners call him God, Sikhs call him Waheguru, Muslims call him Allah

Same thing

B


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## Harry Haller (Jan 15, 2014)

> There is only one God, Hindus call him Bagwaan, Westerners call him God, Sikhs call him Waheguru, Muslims call him Allah
> 
> Same thing


In Christianity, god is in human form and you spend eternity by his side, he is also a he, in Sikhism god is formless and in exists in everything everywhere

same thing?

In Sikhism therefore there cannot be any infidels as everyone has god in then whether they like it or not, it is not a choice, you do not ask jesus to come into your life whilst on your knees, you just need to open up a frequency, vibrate at that frequency and bingo, we assist anyone infidel or not. 

However there is a difference between a non believer, and one who connects with the dark side, the side of the self, the worship of the self, one who  makes the self the master has made a choice, such is a dangerous being, as nothing stops in the way of desire, be it for money, power or beautiful women


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## badshah (Jan 15, 2014)

harry haller said:


> In Christianity, god is in human form and you spend eternity by his side, he is also a he, in Sikhism god is formless and in exists in everything everywhere
> 
> same thing?
> 
> ...



If in Christianity god is in human form, what does he look like?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 15, 2014)

badshah said:


> If in Christianity god is in human form, what does he look like?




a human? 

look I am not being funny but if I have to educate you on the most basic of basics, is there any point in our debate?


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## spnadmin (Jan 15, 2014)

badshah ji

I do have to agree with harry ji ... You have 3 threads going that are pretty similar in tone. What is your agenda? Or are you bored?


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## badshah (Jan 15, 2014)

harry haller said:


> a human?
> 
> look I am not being funny but if I have to educate you on the most basic of basics, is there any point in our debate?



Have you got a portrait of him?

What colour eyes does he have?

Is he a black man?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 15, 2014)

badshah said:


> Have you got a portrait of him?
> 
> What colour eyes does he have?
> 
> Is he a black man?



you need to ask a Christian forum, I am not a Christian


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 15, 2014)

badshah said:


> Have you got a portrait of him?
> 
> What colour eyes does he have?
> 
> Is he a black man?


Badshah ji you yourself a creator's child as far as Sikhism is concerned!

Who is your daddy or mother or creator?  Define yourself and if you cannot then try scratching the head (sorry I am assuming as not everything in creation has head) and try to find answers within!  Share some of the answers you are getting from within and we may have some questions to pose.  Forum is not a one way street.  The traffic flows both ways and many directions including asking and answering.

Badshah ji, what color are you?  Black, brown, pink, red or yellow.  Remember  colors are a relative concept for humans as part of creation.  To a dog  you may look like many shades of gray and to a snake a fuzzy warm color indifferent animal!

Any thoughts!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jan 15, 2014)

Putting aside Gods and mortals for a minute, Badshah Ji, have you got a satisfactory answer to the question about what Sikh says about infidels? Do you have any more questions about that?

I think we can probably assume you meant "what does Sikhi teach about non-Sikhs" ... let me know if I've got that wrong. Sikhs would never refer to adherents of other faiths as "infidels" as that term belongs to Abrahamic religions where typically you're either with them or against them. Sikhi is more holistic in it's worldview and such a mindset can be foreign to some Sikhs, farcical even.


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## AngloSikhPeace (Jan 15, 2014)

Funny thing that people associate the word 'God' with Christianity. If Jesus heard you say 'God' he would assume you were a gentile, probably a Persian. A Roman or Byzantine Greek, unless they were particularly educated in the goings-on of a few insignificant tribes to the north-west, would say the same thing. 

Yet today, it is the Christians who say 'God', whilst the Persians have abandoned 'Khuda' (which sounds very similar to 'God' and shares the same origin) in favour of the word 'Allah', which would be far more familiar in ancient Judea.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, as for infidels in Sikhism, the people here are likely far more knowledgeable than me in these matters. Since Sikhi is a way of life that bases its philosophy not upon simple faith but upon our deeds and mindsets, I see references to 'infidels' or 'mlech' or 'enemies' as both referring to those negative mindsets and thoughts (the five thieves), and to those people who devote themselves to worshipping the five thieves and committing evil actions.

I can't source anything for this though, I repeat that I am not knowledgeable in those matters, and I don't want to misrepresent Gurbani. So please forgive me if I have made a mistake.


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## spnadmin (Jan 15, 2014)

AngloSikhPeace ji

You are tuned in as far as I am concerned. There are no "infidels" in Sikhism. It is a logical impossibility. An "infidel" is someone who *actively rejects a "truth"* that is absolute for a religion other than that of the "infidel" and is thus doomed by these 'errors.' 

The hard-copy treatment of an 'infidel" has several forms. Sometimes, 'infidels" are doomed (according to the other religion) to suffer in some version of an agonizing afterlife, some version of hell. Often they are doomed to die by the sword, through some version of "convert or else I kill you, destroy your institutions, and massacre your families."  

Then there are soft-copy methods of destroying an "infidel," as found in the missionary strategies of some Christian and non-Christian groups. The person who converts, and is no longer an "infidel," is lost to his/her previous religious identity, and possibly also lost to his/her cultural identity. Conversion is a great way to erase entire cultures of "infidels."

Calling individuals and groups "infidels" gives political and moral justification for violent conquest and cultural genocide. The stated objective is always "to save souls." Who can argue with that ?  Makes it OK so to speak! Actually it is pure hypocrisy.

Some religions have a long, historical track record of designating others to be infidels. For other religions it is not on their radar screens and never was. I cannot imagine a Quaker (a Protestant denomination) calling someone an "infidel." When did any Sikh adhere to the message, "convert to my truths or die?" That is craziness.

@ badshah ji

If you seek a Gurmatt perspective (based on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) on this matter, feel free to ask.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 16, 2014)

Neither the so called "infidel"...nor the "god" associated with that exist in Gurmatt.
The Creator in Gurmatt is present in all..its HIS CREATION..and hE LOVES all unconditionally. That is not "god" as i see described in the books that define infidels.


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## chazSingh (Jan 20, 2014)

harry haller said:


> In Christianity, god is in human form and you spend eternity by his side, he is also a he, in Sikhism god is formless and in exists in everything everywhere
> 
> same thing?



i think the point is people want to believe in 'something' more than what they just see and touch around them...

something inside them is pulling at them, prompting them to ask the questions "who am I" "is there a God" ... and so the journey begins for that soul...

the mind will then create all sorts of imaginative ideas of what God is, or what God isn't...but they are just ideas...just a figment of the imagination that helps us seek further...A sikh may say he believes in a Formelss God that exists in all...but we won;t ever be able to comprehend what this actually is until we 'experience' it...until then all our ideas are false (in my opinion)

So i don;t think it matters for the souls journey on what type of God is believed or perceived...for that idea will chop and change with time and lifes experiences...what matters is the willingness to* 'listen'* to the 'prodding' within to seek further.

The slanderers as referenced in Gurbani is telling us not to waste our precious energy slandering everyones ideas and beliefs and concentrate on experiencing the truth for ourselves...
Slanders are the worst, as they judge people viewpoints and spit out nonsense even thought they don;t know the truth themselves...

Sikhi says a Good Judge is one who Judges himself only...so we must not judge someone else's ideas because our view may also be incorrect...so focus must be on experiencing the truth for ourselves first.

In Sikhi i feel non-believers are also referenced as the ones wandering aimlessly in the terrifying world ocean...with no focus other than their desires, greed, egotistical adventures

The person who has that 'pull' inside of them and acts upon that pull, has obtained a new found focus on life and even if their current understanding of God is incorrect, at least a pointer has been set from which to learn and adapt...

Just some thoughts and feelings...nothing more.


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2014)

chazSingh ji

1. Are you equating disagreement with slander?  Is there no room for disagreement without an accusation of slander in Sikhi?



> Slanders are the worst, as they judge people viewpoints and spit out nonsense even thought they don;t know the truth themselves...



What equals "spitting out nonsense?" So far as I can tell from your remarks "nonsense" and disagreement are one and the same.

2. You say





> Sikhi says a Good Judge is one who Judges himself only...so we must not judge someone else's ideas because our view may also be incorrect...so focus must be on experiencing the truth for ourselves first.
> 
> In Sikhi i feel non-believers are also referenced as the ones wandering aimlessly in the terrifying world ocean...with no focus other than their desires, greed, egotistical adventures



First you state "we must not judge" and then you become very critical. Are you not yourself judging non-believers and describing them as aimless wanderers with a focus on desire, greed and ego? How do you reconcile this contradiction?

3. What does your reply have to do with the thread topic, attitudes toward infidels. I would appreciate it if you would make the connection explicit and clear. Otherwise, you have gone off topic again, and your comment will need to be deleted.


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## chazSingh (Jan 20, 2014)

spnadmin said:


> chazSingh ji
> 
> 1. Are you equating disagreement with slander?  Is there no room for disagreement without an accusation of slander in Sikhi?
> 
> ...


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2014)

chazSingh ji

As far as I am concerned you are still equating disagreement with slander because you have not dealt with the actual meanings of each word. The only difference is you are misusing and misinterpreting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to make your argument appear acceptable.

Leaving things stand that way, anyone who disagrees with anyone else, or their religious, moral or spiritual views, is a slanderer. Logic dictates this cannot be sensible. If it were, nothing in human experience would change. Slavery would still be a fact in the US. India would not make an effort to reverse the damage of the caste system. Some of the greatest agents for change were dissenters, they disagreed, they were disagreeable. They were not faithless cynics. 

You are also spamming us by taking us through your spiritual journey time and again even on threads where it makes no sense and is not relevant, as in 



> The person who has that 'pull' inside of them and acts upon that pull, has obtained a new found focus on life and even if their current understanding of God is incorrect, at least a pointer has been set from which to learn and adapt...



Deletions to follow. Cease and desist.


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2014)

Sangat ji

This thread is about "infidels" and it is not about "slanderers and faithless cynics." Infidels and slanderers are two different spirits. A full vichaar of the shabad mentoned earlier would be helpful to this thread. If we can move beyond literal translation and away from taking shabads out of context, we might get a better idea. To take the tuks recently posted literally would point us in a different direction. Going in a literal direction and out of the context of the raag, the tuks would suggest that Sikhi condemns infidels. How can Sikhi condemn infidels? Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh, the concern of Sikhi was that Hindus be good Hindus, Muslims be good Muslims, Christians follow their scripture. Let us not turn our gurus into panga-masters. Thank you


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2014)

I want to repeat. When we quote from SGGS let's make sure that we do not take Guru's words out of context. A full vichaar of the tuks will make this point crystal clear.


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## chazSingh (Jan 20, 2014)

spnadmin said:


> I want to repeat. When we quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji let's make sure that we do not take Guru's words out of context. A full vichaar of the tuks will make this point crystal clear.



You have deleted my comment saying "SGGS does not condemn anyone"...

and in the thread that you have deleted, i have actually stated exactly that...

so why has it been deleted? i had also given a little more of my thoughts about the Shabad i posted...explaining why i dont think Guru Ji is condemning 'infidels' and how Guru Ji is just describing what he See's.

Are we now not able to discuss shabads?


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2014)

1. Discuss the shabad but do not take it out of context.
2. Do not continue arguing with me because that also takes the thread off topic.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 20, 2014)

> i think the point is people want to believe in 'something' more than what they just see and touch around them...



why? is that not wonderful enough?



> something inside them is pulling at them, prompting them to ask the  questions "who am I" "is there a God" ... and so the journey begins for  that soul...



The question is where does that journey terminate, to the self?, or to the truth?



> the mind will then create all sorts of imaginative ideas of what God is,  or what God isn't...but they are just ideas...just a figment of the  imagination that helps us seek further...A sikh may say he believes in a  Formelss God that exists in all...but we won;t ever be able to  comprehend what this actually is until we 'experience' it...until then  all our ideas are false (in my opinion)



I am a Sikh that says he believes in a formless god that exists in all, I do comprehend what this actually is, it means the force that creates is everywhere and in everything, what is there to experience? Why are my ideas false until?



> So i don;t think it matters for the souls journey on what type of God is  believed or perceived...for that idea will chop and change with time  and lifes experiences...what matters is the willingness to* 'listen'* to the 'prodding' within to seek further.



I disagree, I am not going on a seperate journey to my soul, so its me, not my soul that is on the journey, and my journey takes in account the fact that god is formless, timeless, and is not my personal Jesus. My journey would be very different if I believed in say Allah, my motivation would be different, my thinking would be different, in fact, Sikhism is one of few religions to accept prodding as a useful tool, many other religions discourage self exploration and focus on following the 'book', and of course that prodding, is it the self? is it the truth? 



> Slanders are the worst, as they judge people viewpoints and spit out  nonsense even thought they don;t know the truth themselves...



but your err slandering the slanderers lol



> In Sikhi i feel non-believers are also referenced as the ones wandering  aimlessly in the terrifying world ocean...with no focus other than their  desires, greed, egotistical adventures



your doing it again, now your slandering atheists!


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## chazSingh (Jan 20, 2014)

not sure i should reply...my post may get deleted here  but here goes out of loving debate



harry haller said:


> why? is that not wonderful enough?




its amazing...enjoy it...but gurbani says its not the whole truth...not the undying, formless, infinite, and permanent truth...




> The question is where does that journey terminate, to the self?, or to the truth?


enjoy finding this out my friend  i sure am...



> I am a Sikh that says he believes in a formless god that exists in all, I do comprehend what this actually is, it means the force that creates is everywhere and in everything, what is there to experience? Why are my ideas false until?


i was a young child who was once told to eat an apple..."its ok, its nice and sweet, juicy, slightly tangy" 

for the life of me, i still didnt have a clue what it tasted like...

so i ate it...wow...what a taste...the words "nice, sweet, juicy, tangy" didn't do the whole experience justice...no words can...

tangy, sweet, juicy, nice - Harribos can be described in the same... 

experience is surely the key? maybe i'm just deluded...





> I disagree, I am not going on a seperate journey to my soul, so its me, not my soul that is on the journey, and my journey takes in account the fact that god is formless, timeless, and is not my personal Jesus. My journey would be very different if I believed in say Allah, my motivation would be different, my thinking would be different, in fact, Sikhism is one of few religions to accept prodding as a useful tool, many other religions discourage self exploration and focus on following the 'book', and of course that prodding, is it the self? is it the truth?


what are you? just your body and brain..? is so, that's your truth i guess for now.

so many beliefs...yet only one truth...we'll all get to that truth in the end...enjoy the seeking, the challenges, the questions, the answers 



> but your err slandering the slanderers lol


you got me there  a true hypocrite i am...always have been...probably always will be. hence the falling at guru ji's feet in my heart and before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that one day i'm better than this...old habits die hard...but i belieeeve 



> your doing it again, now your slandering atheists!



DELETED. This has gone on long enough./spnadmin

happy seeking my friend...


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## Harry Haller (Jan 20, 2014)

> *In Sikhi i feel non-believers are also referenced as the ones   wandering  aimlessly in the terrifying world ocean...with no focus other   than their  desires, greed, egotistical adventures*



Let us say there are three types of people, those that believe in the truth, those that believe in the self, and those that are not sure what the truth or the self is.

Those that believe in the truth, know about the self
Those that believe in the self, also know about the truth
In my view you are talking about those that believe and follow the self, rather than the poor old non believers


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## spnadmin (Jan 20, 2014)

This thread is about infidels. It is not about non-believers. Infidels believe in all sorts of things; ergo, they are believers. The problem is that some one else doesn't like what they believe and starts name-calling.

If I see that non-believers are wandering aimlessly or that they are mired in greed and ego, one more time in this thread, I will take action. That may include removing the thread from view.

p/s Constant repetition is a form of spam.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 21, 2014)

Before we start talking about non-believers and start misquoting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, let us review what believing is meant to be,





> *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*​ *ੴ*​
> *ਸਤਿ**ਨਾਮੁ**ਕਰਤਾ**ਪੁਰਖੁ**ਨਿਰਭਉ**ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ**ਅਕਾਲ**ਮੂਰਤਿ**ਅਜੂਨੀ**ਸੈਭੰ**ਗੁਰ**ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ**॥*​ *One Creator*
> 
> *Known as the eternal truth, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self-creation and is realized through own (God/creator) blessing.*
> ...


So if Guru ji did not create a class of believers as espoused above, can we at all be serious or honest in start talking about any so called non-believers or infidels?  My observation is that such an approach, no matter who takes it, simply is not in line with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teachings or wisdom therein.

  What Guru ji have not shied away from in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to challenge certain beliefs.  These beliefs may have come from the religions of the day like Hinduism, Islam, etc.  Guru ji did not call these people infidels or non-believers but they challenged some of the beliefs.  As matter of fact they challenged some of such beliefs with much vigor if they found such to be exploitative of human equality, human spirit, manipulative, illogical, and so on.  Guru ji referenced and debated and debunked so to free people’s shackles of ignorance driving exploitative institutions and systems of the day.

  Just some thoughts as I notice that in spite of passage of time as we interact with various posts and posters, we have a tendency to get stuck in mud.  It cannot be generalized as there are incredibly refreshing contributors who continue to shine brighter with every post they make and keeps one coming back to spn.

  Sat Sri Akal.
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