# Sikh's Purpose



## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

I was following a fascinating discussion on another forums on this topics... what are your views...




> Hello,
> 
> 
> I have often been told that in sikhism: The ultimate goal of man is union with God.
> ...


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

The discussion is going on between Amarpal Ji and others... let us read and learn...



> Dear member (TruthSeeker)
> 
> One becomes divine in this life itself.
> 
> Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

Am I right in assuming that 10 Gurus had become divine whilest alive? Are there any others in Sikhism, who have achieved this union making them divine?

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

Is this "Gautam the Buddha" same as the one Buddhists believe in or is he a Sikh Guru? It's just that I did not see his name in the list of ten Gurus.

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Member (TruthSeeker Jee),

As you know God is one. All religions are path to divinity. From this one can conclude that all the individuals who become divine reach the same place. At that stage no religion is left, it is only the spirituality that remains.

Gautam is the same individual who established the basis for Buddhism. You are right.

I gave his example because I consider him divine.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Does it mean Sikhism and Buddhism are same?

rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear TruthSeeker,

All religions aim at enabling the individual to become divine. As I have said religions are paths only. I explain what I mean.

If one starts from Newyork, Tokyo, Cairo, Chennai or Amritsar for Delhi, ultimately all will reach Delhi, but the routes they take will be different. This is because they start from different places. Once you have reached the destination the route has no meaning, that is why I had said in my previous post that no religion is left when you become divine.

Same is the case with religions. The religions are designed to enable individuals to reach divinity. This design takes care of the sociological conditions, political environment that prevails at the time of its inception,mental level of the individuals that constitute that society, the values and beliefs that the society and the individuals have.

You see the the inputs that go into the design of any religion. It has to answer the challanges of its time and the future, if it has to remain relevant. From this you can conclude very easily that no two religions can be alike.

However the spirituality contained in all the religions - stated or implied, is the same. Spirituality is independent of time and individual. 

The divines of by gone era will be similar to the divines of our time or the divines of the coming times.

You know these divine are separated from 'Karta Purakh' only by this body . You also know 'The Sat' i.e. 'Karta Purakh' does not change so how can the divines be different. Through out ages the divinity had reamined the same, as it is shadow of 'The Sat' in which it is about to merge - 'Sat is always Sat', it never changes. Yet the path to this 'Sat'are different.

So in summary: Now two religions are alike.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpal ji !

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

The main question of TruthSeeker is – "The ultimate goal of man is union with God." Now, I have one question – Gurbani says God is Nirinkar (without any form) – so union with What?

Second question is "union in life or after death". Guru Nanak Sahib said "Paanch Tat Kaa Putlaa, Nanak Mera Nao". This means body is made of five chemicals and after death these chemicals mix with the nature. So I don't think there is anything after death. I need your help to clarify these points.

Thirdly, Sikhism is a universal religion or a way of life. It gives enlightenment and enrichment in life to do the selfless service. It welcomes to all, that is why there is no question is asked, whoever comes to Gurdwara Sahib. It is open to all without caste, creed or religious faith. Guru Gobind Singhji baptised the Sikhs and made them Khalsa after Amrit Pan. That's why we always say "Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!". We never say "Wahe Guru Ji Ka Sikh Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!" Sikh can be anybody. Khalsa was made by Guru Gobind Singhji to protect the oppressors from the cruelty of that time Moguls and also to promote a pure and selfless way of life. Now if Khalsa says that he is the only Sikh, it is simply narrowing the circle of Sikhism which is a very sad part. That is why there are more fights in Gurdwaras than preaching Sikhism. We are confining this universal religion to the forewalls of Gurwdaras which was not the motto of our Gurus. Your comments and guidance will help me to understand the Sikhism better.

Thanks
Pul Chut Maf!

Amarjit Singh


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

I am little apprehensive to say this but I think you are being presumptuous on the verge of ridiculous here in stating "All religions aim at enabling the individual to become divine." Monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, do not have any doctrine that aims at making a person divine. 

Now, going back to your answer that Sikhism teaches one achieves union with God, in life, is also seems somewhat untenable. Please allow me, if a person becomes one with God in life, then why is there death? Shouldn't the person go on to live forever? Secondly, how does anyone know that he/she has become one with God? Is there a trait that shines out reflecting on a person's union with God? At what stage in their lives did the ten Gurus and Gautam Buddha achieved union with God?

Finally, what happens to those who are unable to achieve union with God?

Looking forward to your answers and also clarifications sought by Amarjit Singh in his post.

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjit Jee,

Thanks for your response, it helps me to consolidate my thinking. I express my current understanding on the question you have raised in your post.

I admit that I should have been more elaborate in my first post in this thread.

When the person become divine, this individual becomes true. The Ahamkar disappears; it sheds from the individual's thinking the same way as the trees shed their leaves - in a natural way without effort. This individual i.e. her/his spirit, though living in this world is already vibrating with 'Sat'. The only thing that separates this person from the 'Nirakaar' is her/his body. This individual is in union with 'The Sat' while living, she/he merges with 'The Sat' when the last entity of worldly living i.e. the body is shed in a natural way. Such an individual, while living, I refer to as 'Gurmukh'. She/he is just at the entrance of the Ultimate Guru. This is my current understanding. Incidently it also responds to the issue related to Akaar and Nirakaar.

Your second question is related to the first. The five constituent which you have mentioned are the one connected with form. The name Nanak is also a requirement of worldly living, which demands some address. Here Guru Sahib have mentioned about his worldly attribute which are nothing but Akaar. He has not said this makes up the totality of Nanak, he has not mentioend in these words about his inner self i.e. his spirit has nothing to do with the spirit, which is 'Niraakar', which is in union with 'The Sat' when the divine is living and merges and become one with 'The Sat' when the body is shed. 

I agree with your understanding that the chemistry of the body, which is Akaar, merges with nature because that is where it came from. It is the 'Nirakar' part of the individual what vibrates with 'The Sat' in a divine person and merges with 'The Sat' when the body is shed; this merger is only a natural consequence for the divine person, in other words a formality only.

The third question, is regarding Khalsa and Sikhi. I again share my current understanding with you.

I make a distinction between Khalsa and Sikhi.

For me Khalsa is a Panth as created by our Siri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. It is a synergetic configuration based on Sikhi which is its spirit; sikhi is not a panth, it is spiritual teachings. Being a Sikh is essential requirement to be a Khalsa i.e. the member of the Khalsa Panth, which has certain norms and code of conduct.

The synergetic configuration of the Khalsa Panth is evident from the progress we have made since the inception of Khalsa some 300 years ago as compared to those who where in the similar social and economic condition in which our earlier Khalsa were. e.g. compare sikh farmer with non sikh farmer, sikh skilled worker with non-sikh skilled worker etc. To keep the post relatively short I am not elaboratin why I call Khalsa Pants configuration synergetic. I only mention that Guru Gobind Singh Jee knew its potential, that is why he had said: 'sava lakh se ek ladaon tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahaon'; you know this is possible only in synergetic environment.

My views are slightly different from what you have stated that Khalsa was created to protect the oppressed people from the rulers. There was no need to do that. In that society a full class is dedicated for this purpose; the Kshtriyas. Why should they need some one else to protect them, God has given them all the needed faculties to protect themselves.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee created Khalsa Panth in a totally new configuration in which Shastras and Shastras both were incorporated in each individual. He made Khalsa a Saint-Soldier. Others are free to emulate Khalsa, but Khalsa is not a subordinate to any other Panthic Grouping. Khalsa Panth is a synergetic configuration which is always in Chardi Kala.

True, there are fights in Gurdwara because ours in a corporate religion where every one has a say. This coupled with the fact that we have not developed enough elasticity of mind to stretch a little to understand others view point and the mental plasticity to accommodate others view. I know it is bad but we cannot give up, we have to continue to work within Panth to continuously improve. 

Finally, Amarjit Jee, these are my views based on my current understanding. The are not imposed on any one, in fact they cannot be imposed. You read them accept what appears right to you, rest belong to me.

With Love and Respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Member (TruthSeeker Jee),

I have said that religions are paths to divinity. By mechanically practiceing the code of the any religion or dogmatically living with its doctrines, on one can become divine. 

The codes and insistance on the doctrines, in my opinion are the tools to bring in discipline and to kindle spirituality in the individual and nothing more than this, beyond this the individual is on its own.

You appear to be familiar with the essence of many religions. Jesus has once said, the way to my kingdom is very narrow. He owned no territoy, he did not own any property, he was not a king. Then what he meant by his 'kingdom'. To me is is the same which all the religions lead to - divinity. 

Why did he say that the path is very narrow.To me it was to convey the meaning that people in large crowds cannot reach there; each individual has to reach there, and in my opinion on her/his own.

I have explained what I meant by the becoming divine in the life time itself in my response to the post of our member Amarjit Singh Jee, so I am not repeating the same here. 

I respond to your question why is there death.

Only the 'Nirakaar' part of the individul is what merges with 'The Sat' which is 'Nirakaar'. The worldly part of the individual i.e. which gives the individual her/his form - the body has to die; it came from nature it merges with nature. Every entity has to merge into from where it came -Akaar into Akaar, Nirakaar into 'Nirakaar'. So the body has to die and hence there is death.

You asked about when did they became divine.

As literature indicates Gautam reached this state under the tree in Gaya. 

Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee reached this stage when he disappeared for three days while taking bath in the river.

The other Gurus I donot know.

You asked what traits that distinduish the divine person from the mundane individual.

The 'Intrinsic Spirituality' is what distinguishes the divine from mundane. Compassion, humility, absence of Ahamkar, non-attachment and truthfulness in life are the indicator about the person who is on her/his way to divinity - these flow out of such individual in a natural way, no effort is need for it on her/his part. Literature says that there is a hallow around such person. I have not seen any but I accept this because I conceptualise 'The Sat' as 'Cosmic Intellegence' and so it have to have a field, which people refer to a hallow.

You asked what happens to those who are not able to merge in this birth.

From what I understand, those who are not able to merge have to take rebirth.

These are my views based on my current understanding. No one need to agree with them. They only reflect what I am at this moment.

When we discuss, we express our views, we seek clarification on what is said, we raise questions, but we do not pass judgement.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

I am confounded by your religious philosophy! Let me ask you a strange question - If all religions are alike, as you seem to believe, would it be acceptable to you if one of your child or your spouse become - let's say buddhist?

Regards
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpalji!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

Many thanks for your elaborating and giving answers to our questions which sometimes confused us about the Sikhism. You study and research is really very deep and I pray to "Wahe Guruji" to give you more power to do the service of the panth.

But still, as a human being, mind is occupied with many different thoughts about achieving the goal of Sat (Truth). As you said "All religions aim at enabling the individual to become divine and religions are paths only. ……If one starts from Newyork, Tokyo, Cairo, Chennai or Amritsar for Delhi, ultimately all will reach Delhi, but the routes they take will be different." 

If it is so, the question of TruthSeeker is very valid i.e. "If all religions are alike, as you seem to believe, would it be acceptable to you if one of your child or your spouse become - let's say buddhist?" It means if one member of the family follows different path to achieve the same goal, would you let him/her do so or dictate your belief. 

What I know and understand, is that Sikhism was started when there were different religions but they were very rigid. Guru Nanak Sahib started Sikhism as a very simple, easy and acceptable religion to all , that is why Bala and Mardana were always with him.

As Jesus said, the way to my kingdom is very narrow. In Sikhism there is saying that "Sikhi Walo Niki Khandaon Tikhi" . I don't know which Guru said that but it has the same meaning as the Jesus said. It is a very difficult path to achieve the enlightment in this crowded world.

My thinking is, when one achieve the stage of Truth and Enlightenment, there is no distinction left between the different people or different religions. All seems to be the "people of same God or Akal Purakh". Then there is no religion left but one enlightened jot (light) which lead and merge into the ultimate biggest light i.e Akal Purakh – as small rivers when merge with the ocean become part of that ocean.

One more question. Guru Gobind Singhji asked – "Guru Granthji Manao Paragat Guran Ki Deh", – my understanding is that when you following the path described in the Granth Sahib, you will see the Almighty as you wish to see. And in Guru Granth Sahib, body parts are contained as the Bani of our Gurus, Hindu Saints and Muslim Saints without any distinction. In Guru Granth Sahib there is not even once mentioned the strict code of dress for the Sikhs as Guru Gobind Singhji asked to follow the code of dress to Khalsa. So what I undestood by that is Guru Gobind Singhji wanted "Guru Granth Sahib" as a universal Guru and not only the Guru of Khalsa. Your views will help me to understand it better.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjeet Singh,

Thank you for following my questions to Amarpal and also offering yours point-of-view.

You also mentioned few things in your last post that caught my attention. I will try to address them point-by-point:

1. "Guru Nanak Sahib started Sikhism as a very simple, easy and acceptable religion to all, that is why Bala and Mardana were always with him."

a) Is it a fact or an assumption? Did Guru Nanak say that he is commencing a new religion and asked to be followed?
b) Did Bala (Hindu) and Mardana (Muslim) become Sikhs?

2. "One enlightened jot (light) which lead and merge into the ultimate biggest light i.e Akal Purakh – as small rivers when merge with the ocean become part of that ocean."

a) Why do you think God created humanity? 

3. "In Guru Granth Sahib there is not even once mentioned the strict code of dress for the Sikhs as Guru Gobind Singhji asked to follow the code of dress to Khalsa. So what I undestood by that is Guru Gobind Singhji wanted "Guru Granth Sahib" as a universal Guru and not only the Guru of Khalsa."

a) Does it mean 5Ks are unnecessary?

Finally, what are your views regarding re-birth as Amarpal believes that "those who are not able to merge have to take rebirth"?

Regards
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjit Jee,

I do not have the entire thread of this topic in my mind. If I remember correctly, I have never said that all religions are alike or same. I do not know how this misunderstanding came. What I have said that all religions aim towards divinity. In other words the end point of all is same, which I explained by the example of traveling to Delhi - different route but same destination. My be I did not communicate this point every effectively. 

I donot have childern and my spouse is as commited to Sikhi as I am.

Bringing up children giving them the values to face life in right way,and to educate them with capabilities to soar high in life, is parents responsibility, it is their dharma. Once this is done the children should be left to live their lives on thier own. Grown-up children are like the arrow which the parents have aimed and now has left the bow; no one can control them. Parents must be just a friend to them. I hold the opinion that one cannot treat children or the spouse as a property. I treat them (all children) with love, recognise and respect their individuality. I have learnt remain loving, caring, but unattached. 

I am also aware that our family's children cannot be our children as they are sons and daughters of life born in my extended family. This realisation comes from the fact that children are through us and not from us. This I learnt from what 'Khalil Gibran' has said.

If we want our children to remain committed to Sikhi, we have to explain the rational behind what the sikh religion stands for. It is this approach which makes them accept it from thier heart and soul. Once this is the condition they donot drift. Just telling them to keep Kesh is not enough, why Kesh are to be kept needs to be explained to them, quite early in thier age. All of us know that keeping Kesh alone is not Sikhi, it is only a part of Khalsa uniform. Sikhi is much deeper that outward appearance; what it is is enshrined in Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

You are being ambiguous in your post and clearly veering from the main points. 

You stated in your post "the spirituality contained in all the religions - stated or implied, is the same". And your example about destination-Delhi via various routes implies "the end point of all is same". This line of thinking clearly means that all religions are same as far as their end result is concerned. So there is no misunderstanding, whatsoever.

As for my hypothetical question, regarding your child or spouse, is concerned, it was to illustrate that if all religions lead to same "end point" then you wouldn’t mind which religion your child or spouse follow. Once again, it was a hypothetical question, and in NO sense implied otherwise, or directed at you personally. However, instead of taking the question in its right context, sadly, you have turned it into some vague personal theology.

Thanks for trying anyway.

Regards
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear TruthSeeker,

What you have understood now is what I meant. The end destination is same for all religions, though the religions are not the same. End is destination and not the path. Religions are the path not the end. Religions are different, there end destination is same. The path ends when this destination is reached. When you reach the end you are a totally spiritual individual, this is what is divinity; one is intrinsically spiritual. When you become divine you do not need religion any more, you have reached the destination, path is far behind. Religion is meant for those, like me, who are still to reach the destination. 

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Truth Seeker,

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I am happy that you asked for clarification of my points. I am not that much learned as Mr. Amarpal Singhji but I will try to clarify my points to the best of knowledge. 

Your first point is: a) Is it a fact or an assumption? Did Guru Nanak say that he is commencing a new religion and asked to be followed? b) Did Bala (Hindu) and Mardana (Muslim) become Sikhs?

My answer to that is Guru Nanak never commenced or launched new religion and asked Bala and Mardana to become Sikhs. Guru Nanak was born like other children but was always a Truth Seeker. I am giving few examples:

1. When he was sent to Maulvi for learning, Guru Nanak questioned the Maulvi about the meaning of “Alf”. When Maulvi could not answer, Guru Nanak told him the meaning of “Alf” as “Alf Allah Noor Upaya Kudrat Kae Sabh Bande”. 2. When Pandit asked Guru Nanak to wear the “Janaoo” , Guru Nanak questioned the Pandit about the significance of it. 3. When Guru Nanak saw people giving water to Sun, he questioned the purpose. When the answer was “sending water to their Pitter (forefathers), Guru Nanak did not satisfy from the answer. Guru Nanak started throwing water to the opposite direction. When people question him, Guru Nanak replied that his farms are dry without water and he is sending water to his farm. This was very simple answer to the orthodox Brahmins and others, regarding sending water to their forefathers in heaven. 4. When at Mecca, Guru Nanak was sleeping, the Maulvi asked Guru Nanak, why he was sleeping while keeping his feet toward Allah. Guru Nanak simply asked Maulvi to move the feet to the direction, where there is no Allah. So these are the few examples which made Guru Nanak as a God sent man with the Truth. When the people realized that Guru Nanak is the only person who can lead them to the right path, they started following him and became his disciples i.s. Shish (later on known as Sikh). These Shish (Sikhs) became the new sect or group or religion of Sikhism. This is what I visualise the Sikhism. Everybody has his/her own way of visualising the same thing with different perspectives. Upto Guru Teghbahadurji, these Sikhs were the followers of the Gurus teaching. Guru Gobind Singhji baptized these people after Amrit Pan and made them Khalsa (Pure) prescribed them a uniform of 5Ks.

Your second point is: Why do you think God created humanity? 

My answer is: God is inside human being which tell us what is right and what is wrong. God does not live anywhere else. Thus in my opinion, humanity is a creation of human being and nothing else. Without parents, child cannot be born and all Gurus and Paghambers were born though their parents. 

Your third point is: Does it mean 5Ks are unnecessary?

My answer is: 5Ks are very necessary for those who are Baptized. A simple example is that when one joins army or police force, he is bound to wear the prescribed uniform (to be recognized to belong to that force) and following the code of conduct prescribe for him. Without joining police force, if one wears the uniform, he is know as impersonator and if caught, is punished severely. Likewise, if a man is not Baptized and wear 5Ks, he/she is liable to be punished in the court of Guru Gobind Singhji.

Your last question is:

“Finally, what are your views regarding re-birth as Amarpal believes that "those who are not able to merge have to take rebirth"?

My personal view is that there is no rebirth. Gurbani says: “Jeon Jal Mae Jal Aiy Khatan, Tyon Joaty Sangh Jot Samanah”. This belief of re-birth was the inception of Brahmins, who used to tell the stories to the innocent people to earn their livelihood. 

Rest, Amarpalji has a vast knowledge and study of Gurbani and can explain this as well as my other points, in detail.

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjit,

Once again thanks for taking the time to answer my queries.

Perhaps, just to wrap it up, I am going to take the liberty to join two of your points and draw a conclusion. You believe that "God is inside human being which tell us what is right and what is wrong. God does not live anywhere else." Secondly, "my personal view is that there is no rebirth."

So, may I draw a conclusion that there is no evil in this world, since, according to your belief, God lives in all? This lead to my final two-fold question:

What causes people to behave wickedly, sin, and reject God then?
What happens to people who have personified evil with their actions, the likes of Hitler and Pol Pot?

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjit Jee,

1. My understanding is the same as yours: Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee never started any religion.

2. My understanding is that 'The Sat' resides in me and every where else.

3. My position on 5 Ks is identical to yours.

4. My position on rebirth was similar to yours till recently. 

It changed when I read the findings of the research on 'Identical Twins' This post will become too long if I dwell on these findings. From what I read, I was compelled to accept that our life in part is destiny. What creates this destiny I still do not know very clearly. 

After this learning, I followed, for a very limited period, the happenings in the life of identical twins (girls)whom I know at family level very closely. These girls got married within a span of about one year. There was no linkage between the two marriages. Yet, to my surprise the spouses for these girls came from the same city in USA and were living few blocks away on the same street.

This research on 'Identical Twins' and my own observations forced me to accept that part of our life is destiny. Today with what ever I have learnt, I cannot find any better basis than rebirth to explain this happening. 

This belief in rebirth comes from secular research and from any religious doctrine. 

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Truth Seeker and Amarpal Ji!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I am responding to you both together because you both gave me good directions and knowledge to explore the religious concept of Sikhism. Wahe Guru always Bless you Both. 

A. Dear Truth Seekerji!

Your conclusion “So, may I draw a conclusion that there is no evil in this world, since, according to your belief, God lives in all? “ is hundred percent right, according to my knowledge. We always say “there is nothing good or bad, but only thinking makes it so.” 

Your second question: What causes people to behave wickedly, sin, and reject God then?

I give a simple example in this regard. When somebody snatch a toy from a small child, he cannot take it back because he is not that strong. But it leaves a sense of revolt inside him and when he grows, this revolt incite him to snatch things from others (because he was sufferer of the same attitude). So bad people are not born. All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all. I have seen small kids playing together and they never thought about their caste, creed, color or religion. Here, I may mention that sometimes, I feel that religion is also a trademark given by our parents like manufacturers give name to their products. You see every producer claim his product is the best and we buy them by their name or trademark although they are made of the same material. This is only my assumption. As I am not a highly learned person, your guidance will help me to understanding better.

B. Dear Amarpalji!

I am happy that your views are similar to mine on most the points. As your study and knowledge is more than me, you may be right in your conclusion about the Rebirth. I have not reached at that stage where I can visualise my previous birth and what I will be in my next birth. Please keep me enlightened with your thoughts which I always admire. I have one question, and I will appreciate your views on that.

As we know Bala and Mardana were always with Guru Nanak Devji. My question is: What happened to them at the later stage when Guru Nanak Devji gave Gurgadi to Guru Angad Devji. Were they alive at that time and if so, where they were. I couldn’t find an answer about that.

Secondly, we also see the picture of them together with Guru Nanak Devji i.e. Guru Nanak Devji sitting under a big tree wearing a Cap (Topi) and Bala and Mardana sitting on both sides and a cage with parrot hanging above on the tree. 

Some people argue that Guru Nanak used to wear a cap instead of turban and they say as Guru Nanak Devji travelled far and wide - (I don’t know what was the mode of travel), if he had a turban, he might have a big pack of clothes, somebody carrying for them. Our historian write about the events either on assumptions or from a few facts, they find from here or there. I need your help me to understand it better.

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjit,

I read your post and felt like a person, who after drinking water, remains thirsty! 

Anyhow, I found your answer quite vague. Allow me to drill-in further to get to the depth of this matter. 

You see, your theology, does not distinguish between good and evil. As you stated – "All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all." Granted! However, there comes a stage in a child’s life, i.e., adulthood, when he or she becomes responsible for his or her actions. Even parents discipline their children if and when required. In the same way, if we accept that God is our creator, than as the Creator, like responsible parents, He is obliged to hold us accountable for our actions that cause His other children grief and sorrow. One cannot be excused of a brutish behaviour because as a child, he or she was born "pure, innocent, and well wishers of all." If one was to follow your theology, no criminal is responsible for his or her actions, including murderers, thieves, rapists, etc., etc., they are all product of the circumstances!!!

Now, both, Amarpal and yourself, mentioned Jesus’ words about the way to God being a narrow one. But if we consider your theology then the way to God seems quite wide with everyone has access to Him regardless of one’s conduct and actions in life. I do not know how you can justify no accountability for evil deeds.

Having said this, I would like to share with you a set of verses, which was pointed out to me, that I found quite telling and drove a message home:

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands…he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us…we should not think that divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man (Jesus) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead. (Acts 17:24-31, The Holy Bible)

There has to be justice in God’s court, and since all humans are alike, we are all guilty of one sin or another, at some point, in our adult life. We might not be guilty toward another person, but stand guilty before God because He knows our sins that might be hidden from others. Since, before God, the entire mankind is guilty, God has to either forgive us all or, punish us all. And, that is, for God to decide. After observing various theologies, so far, I found Jesus, as the only entity, who offers redemption to the sinful mankind because he paid the price for the sins of mankind. Once the question of mankind’s sinfulness is settled, the union with God, I believe, is elementary because it is SIN that separates us from God not the physical body.

Regards
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 26, 2004)

Dear Amarjit Jee,

In the book written by Dr Gopal Singh 'History of Sikh People' he expresses doubts whether Bala the said Hindu companion was with his all the time or not. From the literature the author- Dr Gopal Singh Jee -had studied he is convinced that Mardana was all the time was with him. I am in agreement with Dr Sahib, The basis of my indepentent, but identicla conclusion I give below.

Enroute to cylone Guru Nanak Dev Jee had passed through Rameshwaram. Guru Sahib had stayed there for some time. This is a historic fact and is recorded in Govt. records. The Raja of that area had donated 22 acre of land to Guru Sahib close to temple. It is along the railway track between Pamban bridge and the temple ( this land has been handed over to Singh Sabha). Guru Sahib had stayed in a sarai there. Today, there is a Gurdwara there. When this Gurdwara was under construction, I had the chance to go there. In the extension to the sarai, on the stone wall I saw a carving. The central figure resembeled Guru Nanak. Only one individual was shown to be sitting by his side with Rabab. I take this to be Mardana. Which tells me that only mardana was with him on his travels to and from cylon and bala was not with him else he too would have appeared in the carving. This might have been the case for his other travels also, which Dr Sahib has detaied in his book. 

This is in resopnse to the sentance in your post that Bala and Mardana were with Guru Sahib.

Amarjit Jee, I donot know what happened to Bala or Mardana after Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee departed.

Guru Nanak Dev Jee had been changing the type of his robe. He has worn almost all types of robe. Dress did not matter to him. So, I cannot say any thing on cap or turban.

My suggestion is that let those who want to argue on the dress of Guru Sahib waste there energies, it is their prerogative. For us, what Guru Sahib said is important, spirituality is contained in his sayings, that is the real gift to us from Guru Sahib.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal

P.S. Even on rebirth, I do not spend much time thinking over it. If it is not there it is fine, if it is there I cannot change the law. What is most important that in this life we plant good roots. Discussions on rebirth are subjects of intellectual curiosity, the knowledge of it does not contribute to spirituality, towards which we all strive.


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## etinder (Aug 27, 2004)

a fantastic debate..

I just want to add that religion is not the end but the means to facilitate the journey of a human's spirituality


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Truth Seeker!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

These are my personal views that "All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all". It may not be a universal truth. Your views can be different as everybody has his own ideology or thinking, in life.

Now I have one question. As you said, “After observing various theologies, so far, I found Jesus, as the only entity, who offers redemption to the sinful mankind because he paid the price for the sins of mankind.” My question is: What are your views about the sacrifice of Guru Arjan Devji, Guru Teghbahadurji, and many others about whom we say in our Ardas “Bandband Katwai, Arian Nal Cheerae Gai”. Were they sacrificed for selfish motto or for redemption to the sinful mankind? Your views will enlightened me better.

I agree with you as you said, “Once the question of mankind’s sinfulness is settled, the union with God, I believe, is elementary because it is SIN that separates us from God not the physical body.” I also think that if there is no SIN, there is no need to search for the God. I believe that man is born not to commit the SIN, it is the society and circumstances which make and compel him so to do so. This again, is my personal thinking. 

One more question. What is your answer if I say “Religion is a very profitable business with minimum investment.” Guru Nanak Devji started a religion (Sikhism) based on “Garibi” (poverty) and always stood by the poor and neglected class of people. But now, it has become one of the richest religion in the world. I will appreciate your views.

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt anybody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!
Amarjit Singh


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Amarjit,

You asked, "What are your views about the sacrifice of Guru Arjan Devji, Guru Teghbahadurji, and many others about whom we say in our Ardas “Bandband Katwai, Arian Nal Cheerae Gai”. Were they sacrificed for selfish motto or for redemption to the sinful mankind?"

You have raised a question that I have been pondering over for quite some time. Here's my take in regard to your question, please bear with me as I set the background for my answer: All over the world there are ethnic groups, religious communities, and political groups, who have been subjected to adverse policies, face unbearable hardship and heavy loss of life for their beliefs and ideologies. Hitler's hatred killed over six million Jews; ethnic violence between Serbs and Croatians, Tutsis and Hutus killed over two million people; Political views and religion killed millions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and Cambodia; to a large extent this is happening even today. Thousands of people lost their lives in New York in 2001, thousands more innocents have died and are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq in the name of religion due to Islamic Jihadis and Christian fundamentalist with political ambitions. By now you might have started to wonder as to where am I heading? Well, I was trying to create a historic background in line with events that are taking place in our time. With the help of current volatile circumstances, I will try to put in perspective the sacrifice Gurus and other Sikhs made. Now, I have read about lot of heroic acts and sacrifices made by people, a lot of them lost their life; who were among the Jews, Serbs, Croatians, New Yorkers, Cambodians, Russians, Iraqis, etc. I have read that there were even some Hindus and Muslims who risked their lives (I don't know if anyone lost their life) and protected Sikhs during 1984 riots. Most of these people can easily be described as brave, kind, humble, and a lot more for their actions and deeds. Furthermore, in the human history, there are innumerable individual stories from all over the world, where people have sacrified their lives for loved ones, friends, communities, and religion. Soldiers have been sacrificing their lives for their countries for centuries. However, to this date, I have yet to be told about a sacrifice, except that of Jesus, which was planned thousand of years ahead, made known to people in advance, and carried out with such detail in line with the prophecy and scriptures that it defies any unbelief. The sacrifice made by Gurus was forced upon them by circumstances; furthermore, the truth is that the Gurus and other Sikhs, who sacrificed their lives, did it for their beliefs; their religion; and their community. The sacrifice of Jesus was for the sins of the mankind, not for a specific group of people or for a specific religion. "For this is my blood... which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28, the Holy Bible) Since the entire mankind is tainted with sin, Jesus' sacrifice touches every human, whereas Gurus did sacrifice their lives but NOT for anyone's sin.

“Religion is a very profitable business with minimum investment.” Guru Nanak Devji started a religion (Sikhism) based on “Garibi” (poverty) and always stood by the poor and neglected class of people. But now, it has become one of the richest religion in the world."

Actually, you have exposed a very telling truth that lot of religions, not only Sikhism, have some explaining to do. I have seen money overtaking compassion, even in Christianity and Islam. We have the Catholic Church, which I call a sect of Christianity, spending millions to keep the Pontiff comfortable, while millions starve all over the world. Islamic Jihadis are quite happy to spend millions on arms to kill the infidels. In Sikhism, Gurdwaras are being built in close proximity and with caste affiliations that create political/caste in-fights and are in local papers all the time for wrong reasons. I like to believe that the Langar service started by Guru Nanak was not only to advocate equality among people but also, to feed the poor. However, I have yet to see Sikhs as a community or from a religious duty reaching out, like Christian organizations, to feed the hungry and clothe the needy, and this not just for fellow Sikhs but also for people regardless of their religious beliefs. But I must admit, I was dumbfounded to be told about the Gurdwara politics, which is apparently prevalent all over the world; sadly politics to some extent is present in all religious institutes. I have learnt, that in Gurdwaras, it is often related to either money or caste. Today, it is unfortunate that financial richness seems more desirable than spiritual richness, which in turn could make us all more compassionate towards the needy in our society. At this point, I would like to quote a verse, which seems very apt - "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Matthew 16:26, the Holy Bible) 

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Amarjit Jee,

As I understand, my Karmas, including sins are not transferable. I have to pay for it. True, the christian priests tell that Jesus sacrificed his life for others and they offer redemption on behalf of Jesus, it is up to you to accept it or not. I do not buy it, so the question of applying it to our Guru Sahib does not arise.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

You stated, “The Christian priests tell that Jesus sacrificed his life for others and they offer redemption on behalf of Jesus.”

From my understanding about Christianity, the views you have tendered above are according to Catholicism, which are often not necessarily in line with Christian faith as a whole, especially when considered from the Bible’s standpoint. 

The Catholic Church teaches that - "For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished'" (Vatican Council II, p. 1).

This view does not seem to be biblical and certainly not shared by other Christian denominations. The most agreed upon view on redemption is that it was a one-time act, which was completed when Jesus died on the cross. And the Bible tends to agree with this view, which can be construed from the following verse: 
"… He (Jesus) entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:12, the Holy Bible)

Priests (Catholic or whoever) cannot offer redemption on Jesus’ behalf. According to the Bible, Jesus, himself, is declared a priest, "You are a priest forever…" (Hebrews 7:17, the Holy Bible)

If one follows bible based Christian theology, it can be seen that there is no need for a human priest to offer redemption because the work of redemption was completed in Christ, once-for-all. A human priest has no role to play as the Bible states "…Because Jesus lives for ever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore, he is able to save forever those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24, the Holy Bible)

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Truth Seeker Jee,

I am some what familiar with the New Testament and old testament. I have read it only once just to get familarised. I have not read it very seriously and hence will not enter into any detailed discussion on it. Why I have not studied it seriously,I will share with you; this I am doing so that you have the background.

1. Unlike Siri Guru Granth Sahib, Bible was not compiled during the life time of Jesus. There is no clue available as to the text written during the life time of Jesus, which provide the source for the compilation. What I learn from Chritian priests is that at that time it was the word of mouth and so written text of the time of Jesus is not available. It is difficult for me to accept, because recording the events was part of culture in those areas from the times of pyramides. 

Bible has been compiled after about 80 years or more after the passing away of Jesus. This leaves lots of scope for errors, hence I do not consider Bible to be authenticated version of teachings of Jesus.

2. Jesus's life is known till he was 12 years old. Then it is known from when he became 30 years old till he was put on cross at the age of 33. 

Why nothing is known about his 18 years of real life i.e. between 12 and 30 years of age is surprising to me. It creates lots of doubts in my mind. There is not enough transparancy here. These 18 years of Jesus's life are most important, which as not known to us, it is during this period that he became what he was. Why it is not known, I am searching for answer.

This is not a reply to you post, but my reason for not participating on this issue in this thread.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Truth Seeker and Amarpal Ji!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I am responding again to both of you together because you both gave me good knowledge about Sikhism as well as Christianity. Wahe Guru always Bless you Both. 

My desire is to know, “How can we achieve the divinity?” My point of view was not to explore the superiority or inferiority of any religion. All religion were started with good purpose and intention. But with the time, all religions became business organizations. Heads of those organizations started selling their teachings to the masses by promoting their qualities. This is 100 percent my views and I don’t force anybody to agree with it. 

When I was in college about 40 years ago, there was a chapter about British History in our History Book that Pope started selling tickets to the Heaven. So I don’t know whether these religions are for salvation or to make money. Your guidance with help me to understand it better.

Secondly, when I said that "All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all". I meant that, if you keep all kids together at the time of their birth, can anybody tell who belongs to what religion? I doubt, if anybody can tell. It is the parents who give them names and after that, they belong to the different group of society, divided by the religion. What I think is, it is the trademarks given to these children by their parents according to their religious beliefs.

Thirdly, I think the religion is the main cause of all hatred among the people. Instead of promoting to be a good human being, it divides the people in different groups and instead of promoting brotherhood they spread, to some extent, hatred and kill each other in the name of religion.

What are your views please?

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!
Amarjit Singh


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Amarpal,

If you wish to explore further please check the web for Masoretic Text, Septuagint, Theodotion, Vulgate, Taragums, and Juxta Hebraice. For brief summary or some details, see the following URLs:
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html
http://www-personal.buseco.monash.edu.au/~hyndman/bible/lrbe/chapter3.pdf
http://www.christianstudycenter.com

Dear Amarjit,

You are quite right to point out that religion to quite an extent is main cause of hatred among people. Religion somehow seems to bring the worst out of people. I noticed in the Bible that Jesus called the religious authorities of his time – hypocrites, blind guides, whitewashed tombs, snakes, and brood of vipers – for not practising what they preach! (Matthew 23, the Holy Bible)

Religion today has taken a “mob-mentality“ which has only one purpose in mind – destruction of mankind. Religion, instead of uniting mankind to God, is building a wall of separation. I believe it is high time that we put the focus back on God, away from religion.
Now, the million dollar question is, how do you get to know God without religion? 

We must look to someone who knows God intimately to a degree where there is no ambiguity as to person’s spiritual nature.

Are Ten Gurus God?
Is Mohammad God?
Is Gautam Buddha God?
Is Jesus God?
Etc. Etc.

I guess, it is an individual journey for each and every one of us to find the truth. I do not believe that uniting with God is the destination, but a beginning of a new life in eternity.


Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Truth Seeker !

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I guess you understood me better. Your views are similar to mine as you said:

“Religion today has taken a “mob-mentality“ which has only one purpose in mind – destruction of mankind. Religion, instead of uniting mankind to God, is building a wall of separation. I believe it is high time that we put the focus back on God, away from religion..........

Are Ten Gurus God?
Is Mohammad God?
Is Gautam Buddha God?
Is Jesus God?
Etc. Etc.”

My answer, to your questions, is that none of he above were God but they tried to show the right paths and directions, which lead to realize the God. But, as human being is a very clever social animal, he instead of confronting the views of the Gurus, Mohammad, Buddha and Jesus, started selling their gospels and teachings for his own benefit and profit. 

I think, there is no God in Church, Gurudwara, or any other religious places because people, who control them, are far away from the God. There is a saying: “Nearer the Church farther from the God”. God is not a criminal, who is confined to the four walls of a building, He is omnipresent and is everywhere – only one needs the eyes to see Him or realize Him which only our Gurus, Mohammad, Gautam Buddha and Jesus had. 

Guru Nanak said: “Kirt Kar, Naam Jap and Wand Chhak.” If a man has these three qualities,. I think, he is nearer to God although he may have any dress i.e. either he wears a turban or not, or he wears a particular dress or not. Our religious leaders preach that if we have a particular dress, only then, we will achieve salvation but they never think that man is born naked and will not take anything with him after death.

What are your views please?

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!
Amarjit Singh


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Amarjit,

I agree with you that God is not confined to the four walls of Gurdwara, Church, Mosque, Mandir, or whatever! In fact, I believe, if and when, we visit any Church, Gurdwara, Mosque, etc. we are supposed to bring God with us, (or, in us) the designated place is just for a gathering of like minded people who share the same belief. Somehow, over time, a religious building in itself became house-of-God, which is very unfortunate. 

I read in the Bible that God says, “be holy because I am holy”. Which makes lot of sense because a Church or a Gurdwara does not make a person holy, does it? It is what we reflect in our character, behaviour, and deeds that matters most. However, I believe that ultimately no amount of good deeds can make us holy that can equate us to God’s level. This is because of sin. “All our good works are like filthy rags before God,” says the Bible. I wonder why? Then I learnt from my own experience that our good deeds are always done with a motive, which can vary from person to person. But one thing is for sure, that human can never do good deeds in a natural sense, meaning without motive regardless how noble, because of SIN. Sin in human nature has to be addressed. 

Guru Nanak’s command to “Kirt Kar, Naam Jap and Wand Chhak” is fine and noble but does not address the sin problem of human nature. People can remember God daily, as most religious people do; people can perform good works, as some religious people do; people can share their belongings, as few religious people do; BUT sin remains. It is almost as if sin is in human blood and we cannot get rid of it? The Bible says there is not a human being born who is without sin, except Jesus. That’s what I find most intriguing and leads me to delve into - what makes Jesus without sin, which in turn enables him to forgive us our sins? 

I agree with you that religion cannot provide us salvation because I believe, that is God’s work, an act of grace on his part, which we receive undeservedly. But the question is why? 

Rgds
Truth Seeker


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## Mr §ingh (Sep 2, 2004)

Singh - why don't u just give the link?!?


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## Neutral Singh (Sep 2, 2004)

Ha! Ha!! I knew somebody would surely ask this...  the discussion is going on at SGPC.NET... actaully the thing is that in sgpc duscussion forum this is the only thread with immense value and sooner or later a sgpc admin would come and delete all the messages randomly and this discussion too would be lost forever... i am a great admirer of Amarpal ji's writings and did not want this fascinating discussion destroyed. I am simply preserving it for future reference for you and for my benefit.

I hope nobody minds...


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