# What Gurus Really Taught - A Different Perspective



## jasi (Sep 12, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

SS AKAL JI.

Guru Nanak Dev introduced to the world such a faith which applies to all human race to follow to be able to realizes the Creator.

Once this great faith which was meant to be universal  became a organized and institutionalized ,has given further birth to different custodians of our faith by creating wall of protections and  sense of superiority which leads to further hatred and set their own DERAS by luring large numbers of inveterate and mislead groups.

The real purpose of teachings of our founder of Sikhism is hijacked by these self made Gurus to be worshiped by their followers 

Institutionalized religions further create multiple custodians to manage that particular  religion by all kinds of manipulations to control the member of the particular religion. 

Guru Nanak Dev blessed this world with universal faith to enrich  our daily lives regardless of any race or origin but all humanity.. Sikh faith was blesses without any boundaries to be spread to all humanity .


By creating boundaries in Sikh faith among us is the same results like any other groups of religions in the world where there is one Prophet or messenger but too many branches  created by so called custodians for their self gains. 

The essence of teachings of all the Prophets or messengers has been manipulated by institutionalizing and organizing by certain groups  to run the society by creating walls from each others groups. 

Guru Nanak Dev blessed the world with universal faith to love all human beings by appreciating the Creator by leading simple and honest lives which was envied by cast ridden society of Hinduism and many other self ego organized religions by monopolizing their faiths

Jaspi


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 12, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Respected JASPI Ji
WAHiGUROO Ji KA Khlsa
WAHiGUROO JI Ki FATEH

The contents of your message are appreciable.We must realise as to who is responsible for the situation you have mentioned.As a matter of fact we ourselves are responsible for this situation.We people never interact to understand the correct messages from Gurbaani and such people have taken the full advantage of our ignorance.

I am of the view that till now Gurbaani has not been understand according to the Grammer of the words of Gurbaani and this is the basic reason for this situation.Surprisingly if you ask about the gramatical meaning of any word from Gurbaani such people do not respond at all.In this situation how can we go ahead?

Therfore there is urgent need to understand the intrinsic meanings of Gurbaani words so that the TRUE MESSAGE of GURU NANAK can be spread accordingly'
Gurbaani is providing us the complete knowledge about THE CREATOR and about the technique of uniting yourself with THE CREATOR.This knowledge is available in terms of SACRED DIVINE WORDS we must understand this.

Prakash .S.Bagga


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## jasi (Sep 12, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

SS AKAL JI.

*prakash.s.bagga* Ji.

This is the first time I can realize that there is duplicate heart throbing  like mine after reading your comments quoted in your reply to my message. Thanks.

No such educated Granthi or Priest came forward to translate in simple terms to all over 85% illiteracy existed in Punjab at the time after Guru Sahibs departures and Guru Gonidh Singh ji left a message by  putting  straight forward words if any one try to seek me ,will find in the shabad in Guru Granth Sahib ji..

By the time when new custodians took over the priesthood became involve in all kinds of rituals which were condemned bu Guru Nanak Dev such as cast system or other rituals like Parshhad noon Bhog langana.Langar ko Bhog Lagana right in front of the public like Hindus give a sweets to their statues gods to eat.

Swami Vivkanad revolted when he asked a question to his mother for leaving some sweet besides god statues. Mother replied I leave for god to consume as a ritual of Hinduisms.


One day Vivekananda kept on sitting to see when this statue will take a bite of the sweets.

But to his surprise bunches of mousses came as usual every night to have feast by jumping on statues head and noes to eat all what was left there.

Next morning Vivekananda revolted against such practices. 

Symbolic gestures are done to imitate the realities.

.Shabads in Guru Ganth Sahib  ji might have understood by some scholars or learned priests but never understood by public at large which was the sole purpose to spread the Gurbani to all as fellow Sikhs and the world.

We tell the world blunt lies that we do not believe in cast system but practice cast systyem even worst than counter part HINDUS or the world.

How one can bow their head in front of Guru Granth Sahib in complete NIMRATA yet carrying a surname of their JATI to let the other knows what JATI ONE belongs TO.

Some say we are Ramgarhia and there worship place will be called Ramgarihia Gurudwaras causing more more division among ourselves.

We at large need to make UTURN and look at our faces in the mirror who actually we are and decide to take a place of being Sikh or between nothing.

Hope all splitted sects of Guru Sahib 's teaching must come in togetherness under one umbrella which is Harimndar Sahib and launch a true meaning of Guru Nanak Dev Ji 's message to rest of the world.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 12, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Respected JASPI Ji
DIVINE GREETINGS,

I greatly appreciate your response.I am sure we will interact more in the subject in near future.I have been trying to get the true understanding of Gurbaani messages nearly for the past 25 years.It is onlythe duration of last five years when SATiGURU Ji  let me know the intrisic meanings of Gurbaani words.To my surprise I found that what we are told does not match at all with what is being conveyed in Gurbaani messages.

I came to know a BASIC CONCEPT of the whole of Gurbaani understanding based on
the application of SANSKRIT GRAMMER to the words of Gurbaani.I tried to discuss this concept with many of my known Sikh personalities but this all proved to be vain.No body seems interested in knowing which would be very very different from what has been told.

I did came across a few who did appreciate the concept but with closed mouth.It is probably we are unable to listen to the TRUTH and TRUTH usually hurts.My intention is not to hurt anyone ,my concern is for the correct interpretation of Gurbaaniin the interest of common person who is not familiar with the nitty gritty of Grammer of the words. 
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA


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## jasi (Sep 12, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Thanks Prakash Ji

SS AKAL.

My only expression about Guru Granth Sahib ji is ,there is no such written scripture available in the world which was written by the Masters themselves  like Guru Granth Sahib ji written by hand by our Gurus..

All other holy books or scripture were complied or written by their disciples or collections from others sources after many years of their departed Prophets ,Philosophers or Buddha,Confuses.  But the only HOLY hand written scriptures by sikh Gurus is GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI  as a  living testimony to the world in modern socity. 

"Truth is highest virtue and higher than is truthful living" Nanak

To achieve realization of the creator one doesn't have to leave his house to go to Himalaya or Jungles but try to look inwardly with the help of Gurbani and live good house keeper.

Some of the major message can be summarized as follows. 
<table class="tcat" id="post133080" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><tr><td class="alt1" id="td_post_133080">      ​

   1. All people of the world are equal
   2. Women are equal to men
   3. One God for all
   4. Speak and live truthfully
   5. Control the five vices
   6. Live in God's hukam (will/order)
   7. Practice Humility, Kindness, Compassion, Love, etc
</td></tr></tr></tbody></table>.

Through popular tradition, Guru Nanak’s teaching is understood to be practiced in three ways:

    * Naam Japna: Chanting the Holy Name and thus remembering God at all times (ceaseless devotion to God)
    * Kirat Karō: Earning/making a living honestly, without exploitation or fraud
    * Vaṇḍ Chakkō: Sharing with others

Gurbani teaches us to look inwards as a house holder to realizes Truth (God ) realizations.

Jaspi.



prakash.s.bagga said:


> Respected JASPI Ji
> DIVINE GREETINGS,
> 
> I greatly appreciate your response.I am sure we will interact more in the subject in near future.I have been trying to get the true understanding of Gurbaani messages nearly for the past 25 years.It is onlythe duration of last five years when SATiGURU Ji  let me know the intrisic meanings of Gurbaani words.To my surprise I found that what we are told does not match at all with what is being conveyed in Gurbaani messages.
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Respectable JASPI Ji
Accept my Divine Greetings
From the contents of your message I am convinced that the frequencies of our thought are same.Your contents are true reflection of your clear understanding about the messages of Gurbaani
I maybe allowed to simply realign your contents  just to be more specific.Although the whole Gurbaani is full of DIVINE WORDS and can not be classied in any way.But still for the sake of convinience we find that the Gurbaani messages can be grouped in three as under
Group -A: The messages related to pure sprituality
Group-B: The messages related to the ART OF LIVING
Group -C: The messagesrelated to certain Historical incidences during the period 
               Gurbaani being revealed
The messages of Group-B and C are understood well.
The main problem is with the understanding of the messages of Group-A as these messages  convey the main objective of Gurbaani.And the understanding of these messages require the correct knowledge of Grammer of the words .Because many of us are not familiar with the Grammer of Gurbaani words and this has resulted in the vast variation and to other problems you have mentioned earlier.
I wouldgive a n example of a Gurbaani spritual Gurbaani messae which is the ULTIMATE GOAL of knowing and practicing.Pl give a thought to the following message from SGGS Ji

  RAMNAAMU UR MEE GAEO JAA KE SUM NAHI KOE
  JIH SIMRAT SANKAT MITE DARAS TUHARO HOE  pp1429

It is obvious we must know this RAMNAAMU     ......................?Is this the word RAM 
or Is this the word WAHiGUROO .What is this according to Gurbaani?

With best wishes and regards
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA


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## Aeon (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Originally Posted by *Aeon* 
_Gurfateh Aman Singh ji ,
Thankyou for making me feel welcome. Here is a bit about me.
I would very much like to learn about other beliefs ,cultures that exist upon this earth.To find a common ground so that we can learn , expand our understanding in such a turbulent time.It seems that avarice, self gratification and the inabillity to tune in to what is around is prevelent in the world. I have been walking the path so to speak , finding my spiritual self ie. christianity ,wicca, odinism . for a while i felt that the "God force" as i called it was with me , a higher power that through acknowladgement would indeed answer my questions of life.But, as i get a little older i start to question , what is there, is there anything out there and who am i !!!
I discovered this site by searching on google because i can apriciate the philosophy and virtues of Sikh belief. My father , always said "I was born in the wrong century" because even as a small child i was always interested in history , wanting to know about various cultures,battles and the warriors that fought in them. I also consider myself a warrior because ever since i was a child the noble ideals of the warrior appealed to me , it felt right.and for a long time have practised training with different weapons , showing respect for this art.

I shall not bore you with my ramblings any longer hehe_


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Aeon ji, welcome!

welcomekaurwelcomekaur

I think that you and I are kindred spirits.  I grew up in a Sikh home, actually a Khalsa home (although my mother was Catholic and tried to make me into one, too.  It didn't work.  But that's another story), but there's a lot more to it than that.  I've always been a bit of an oddball.

Is it possible that hearing one song one time can give direction to life?  Yes, it is.  When I was 12 or 13, I heard "The Impossible Dream" and knew right then and there that was my life.  So I am a slightly - or grossly - crazy lady, no longer young in years,  who fancies herself a knight errant.  My life is a quest to reach that "far, unattainable sky."  wahkaur

"It doesn't matter whether you win or lose, as long as you follow the Quest."  Spoken by the lovely Sophia Loren.  It's more fun to win, though.

In the meantime, I am living the best life I know, following Guru ji as best I can.  For me, that is following the Khalsa Panth.  I have no idea what it is for you;  perhaps we can be fellow travellers for a time and then part ways.  Or perhaps we can become comrades and then sister and brother.  Who knows the future?

It is always the right century to be a noble warrior;  only the forms change.  It is also always the wrong century to be a noble warrior because there are always those who oppose those trying to live a noble life.  Ridicule, I have found, is the hardest to bear.  Attack me and I will fight.  swordfightRidicule me and the best I can do is ignore you.:disguestedkudi:

Are you familiar with the Sikh greeting:  "Vaheguru ji ka khalsa!  Vaheguru ji ki fateh!!  Rather than give a translation, I'll just tell the meanings of the words and you can put them together yourself.  _Vaheguru/Waheguru_ is a very deep word usually understood to refer to the Sikh concept of the Divine; _ ji _is an honourific placed after a name to indicate respect; _ka _and_ ki _are possessives; _ Khalsa_ means pure;  _fateh_ means victory.  Punjabi is a very compact language.  In this case you get to add the verb yourself.  (Note:  Khalsa also is the name give to the initiated Sikhs, sometimes even called the Khalsa Knighthood.)   ikonkaar

Anyway, welcome again to SPN.  welcomemundawelcomemunda    I'm the exception here.  Most members are sane reasonable people.  All are very friendly and usually really nice, too.  mundahugkaurhugkudihugrangesingh:  (I know there's a Singh hugger, but I can't find him.)

Your ramblings are not boring.  Anyway, I am the resident rambler here.

icecreamkaur  busyknittingOh, yes, and WOE TO THE WICKED!! :blushhh:


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## Seeker9 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

I never did one of these when I joined in May and having seen so many nice intros lately thought I should do one now....I hope it isn't too late!

I started reading Greek and Roman mythology when I was 7. The first one I ever read was a children's version of Homer's Odyssey. What an amazing tale. Was hooked and over the years moved to reading mythology from other cultures including Egyptian and Norse.

When I got to my awkward teens and received my own personal copy of the New Testament from the Gideon's society, I read through that and was “into Jesus” for a while...well you know how it is..hormones and stuff..clearly I wasn't firing on full thrusters!

Moved on to reading the complete Bible and I was never entirely comfortable with the wrathful vengeful God of the Old Testament. I couldn't see how the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament could be the same. This left a gap as I moved away from the Christian faith and didn't know where to turn next. 

Incidentally, this was all against the background of having Radha Soamis in my family but I was never entirely comfortable with that either! I disliked the RS people who came to my house and I didn't like going to their houses and seeing pictures of their Master all over the place. They came across as pious yet regarded themselves as superior to just about anybody else and I wasn't having that.

In my late teens/early 20's came across 2 great books. The first was “A Brief History of Time” by Stephen Hawking and the other was a book called “Sophie's World” by Jostein Gaarder. For those who don't know it , the author was a philosophy teacher in High School in Norway, decided all the Philosophy textbooks he had come across were deeply boring and decided to write his own book that covered the curriculum, but in a  far more readable way as it was written as a mystery novel.

I then realised that I had three approaches to getting some answers to all the deep important questions I had been thinking about, I.e Science, Philosophy and Religion and have been reading up on these ever since.

Whilst drifting, I came across this fine site and have never looked back! I have learned so much in the few short months I have been here and feel privileged to be able to engage in intelligent discussion with so many learned people.

Hope this wasn't too long and thanks for reading!


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Seeker 9 ji,

Not too long and it's never to late to say hi and be welcomed.  So, formally, welcome!  welcomekaurwelcomekaur  I know we have interacted more than once;  still a welcome is...welcome. 

You are right that it's hard to connect the nice (excepting for sending nonbelievers to hell) God of the NT, to the warlord God of the OT.  Harder still is to connect those to the statement that God never changes.  Just my thoughts on that.

Stories of such searches are always interesting to me.  Each of us has our own unique path to find.  My wish is that we each find our own and get going home.


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## Seeker9 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Seeker 9 ji
> 
> Stories of such searches are always interesting to me.  Each of us has our own unique path to find.  My wish is that we each find our own and get going home.



Dear Mai Ji
Thanks for the welcome and thanks for this...it's a lovely way to put it


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## jasi (Sep 13, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

SS AKAL JI 

PRAKASH JI .

Thanks for making me worthy of explaing the n meanings of words mentioned Guru Gobidh Singh Ji quoted word of  *ramnamaeu  means RAB DA NAM LAO.
Repeat the name of Waheguru.

Guru nanak dev Ji changed nothing what has been repeated in vedas to NAM JAPNA. Like qwe say wahef gurus and hindus repeat OM Shiva Name. 100% the same thing.

But Guru Nanak Dev Ji drawn a thick dividing line not to follow and rituals and belief in cast system where million of people suffered  and were deprived of their rights.

Like your good name is Prakash Singh  Bagga . Now if you are true believer of Guru Nanak Dev ji you will never go to Gurudwara and bow your head in front Guru Granth Sahib with tail attached behind your name of which cast and firm belief in cast system.

Guru nanak deb ji is the first one to lay fundamental differences between Hindu and Sikh faith to believe we all has come from one light and there is no one bad or good by birth  but by individual's KARMA.

One do not have to be Ph.d or mater degree  to understand a simple Gurbani by our GURUS to understand . You probably have heard singing loud voices "Wahegur Darshan de deo" But Nanak blessed us with one simple messages that  EK ONKAR IS SITTING NEXT TO YOUR HEART  AND CAN BE REALIZED BY LISTENING GURNBANI AD NAM JAPNA. 


This tail was eliminated by Guru Gobind Sjngh ji to make us all brothers  with powerful message to all to join HIM in Khalsa Fauz regardless of their origin or casts.

Sikh means follower of the truth and fundamental difference between Sikhs and Hindus is we do not believe in cast system. 

You can figure out yourself where you stand  or you as hypo crate like millions of followers of Sikh philosophy but they do not show to the world what they preach.

Truth is GOD in Sikhism.

That is what Nanak says.

"Truth is the highest virtue and higher than is truthful living"

Be a unique by denouncing your last name in front of all relatives and friends to be practical in your longings.That is what we have lost and let us be brothers.

Wahe Guru Ji
*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Respectable JASPI JI
WAHi GUROO JI KA Khalsa,WAHi GUROO JI Ki Fateh,
I fully agree with you when you say about that no such qualification is required to understand gurbaani.Gurbaani is so powerful in effect that only reading and /or listening should be enoughor if one can sing still better.

However I would differ in your point of view regarding droping of portion of personal Name.I feel it is mind set which requires change.I know persons with drop in last name but no change in the mind set.So this is the state of affairs.

I thank you for your response,With best wishes

Prakash ,s,Bagga


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## Seeker9 (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> Respectable JASPI JI
> WAHi GUROO JI KA Khalsa,WAHi GUROO JI Ki Fateh,
> I fully agree with you when you say about that no such qualification is required to understand gurbaani.Gurbaani is so powerful in effect that only reading and /or listening should be enoughor if one can sing still better.
> 
> ...



I am enjoying reading this discussion very much
I wonder though if it merits it's own thread?


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## jasi (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

SS AKAL Ji

PRAKASH JI.

By dropping the last name is not matter of changing some one's mind but to respect the foundations of the faith to be able to preach and practice what we believe in foundation laid by our Guru Nanak Dev Ji to condemn the cast system as HIS prime step.

Cast system is not a religion but organized practices to demean your own race because they happened to be born in family of so called man made low classes.

Now some Hindu started making mocker about Sikhs by saying what but pooja ,Sikhs worships all kinds of pictures even statues of gurus., what cast ? Sikhs are more divided by cast and practices in daily life by demeaning each others.Looks like whole thing fell apart.

So do we have any thing to show the world that our beliefs are just talking and that is why one can see where our new generations are going and confused to see what we practice is not the same as we preach

Mind set will only follow for some one who has attitude to follow the truth. 

Even Amrit shakna is for no good unless inside our souls is prepared or cleansed to appreciate the essence of Amrit shakan .

That is why lots of people provided this opportunity to be blessed with Amrit shakna but failed to respect the basic principals and importance of Amrit shakna.

Jaspi




prakash.s.bagga said:


> Respectable JASPI JI
> WAHi GUROO JI KA Khalsa,WAHi GUROO JI Ki Fateh,
> I fully agree with you when you say about that no such qualification is required to understand gurbaani.Gurbaani is so powerful in effect that only reading and /or listening should be enoughor if one can sing still better.
> 
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

Respectable JASPI Ji,
Pl Accept DIVINE GREETINGS,
I am fully appreciative of your concern in the subject. Any how I may bring to your kind notice that Guru Nanak Dev Ji never condemned the Caste System.Rather Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave a common  message of SATiNAAMu to all human beings irrespective of Caste and Creed.
I find that we are lacking the understanding of Basic Concepts delivered by Guru Nanak Dev Ji as well as Guru Gobind singh Ji.Our current situation which you are very much concerned,is the result of our own failure to adopt the principles of our Guru,s .
I dont think we should blame any other community for our own shortcomings.If we can srenghten our fort of Basic Knowledge about the messages of our Guru,s then no damage can be done to destroy our faith,
We seem to be unable to do this because there is no one to do so sincerely.You yourself agreethat people provided with the opporunityto be blessed with AMRIT SHAKNA failed to respectthe basic principles and the importance of AMRIT SHAKNA.
Can we blame any other community for this failure?

Therfore we will have restart from A of Gurbaani  understanding if we really are interested in establihing our basic principles
We must pay more attention toGurbaani understanding.Once this is strenthened things would start taking reshape of its own.When this will happen we have to give a thought to this.
I am basically interested in promoting Gurbaani understanding only.
With best wishes and regards
Prakash,S,Bagga


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## Astroboy (Sep 15, 2010)

> I wouldgive a n example of a Gurbaani spritual Gurbaani messae which is  the ULTIMATE GOAL of knowing and practicing.Pl give a thought to the  following message from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> 
> RAMNAAMU UR MEE GAEO JAA KE SUM NAHI KOE
> JIH SIMRAT SANKAT MITE DARAS TUHARO HOE  pp1429
> ...


 prakash.s.bagga Ji,

It is not so much about which name is used, because there are many names for the Lord, God. The message of the Guru is more to do the simran of the Lord's name in the hirdey, which is far superior than other religious practices.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 15, 2010)

NAMJAP Ji
Accept my Divine Greetings,
First of all I may bring to your kind attention that it is very impotant to know as to what the word NAAMu/NAAM refers to.We all generally think that NAAMu/NAAM is the reference for NAME..In Gurbaani we find that the word used to refer NAME is the word 
NAAu.Therefore it is obvious that the word NAAMu/NAAM is not the reference for any NAME.
In view of above distinction we find that NAAmu/NAAM is the reference for the words which are ADJECTIVES. So the word NAAu is the reference for the words which are NOUNS
We must also understand the significance of the underline under the last letter of the word NAAM..u{I am used small as indication for this underline.We can understant the significance of this underline if we are slightly familiar with the Grammer of Gurbaani words
In Gurbaani we would find that the words are very properly indicated with the pattern of Grammer.As a Rule of Grammer we would find that any word with underline in last letter of the word is SINGULAR and any word without this underline is PLURAL.

In view of above cosideration we find that the word NAAMu is SINULAR ADJECTIVE  word.We know very well any Adjective refers for the qualities,In Gurbaani it refers to the SINGULAR WORD OF PRAISE,
NAAMu ...SINGULAR WORD OF PRAISE
NAAM.....Plural of NAAMu
NAAu......SINGULAR NOUN WORD
NAAV......Plural of NAAu
This much information was necissary to indicate the significance of NAAMu
You can verify youself Gurbaani always refers to NAAMu as matter for SIMRAN.Most of the times we write NAAM only .This is very surprising to note.

You can notice in Gurbaani that there is very specific importance of RAMNAAMu inspite of being mentioned of several NAAM and or /NAAV

I quote the following from SGGS Ji

1......MERE MEET GURDEV MOKOU RAMNAAMu PARGAAS

2.....MERE GOBIND JUN APNE KO DEHO BADAI
      GURMATi RAMNAAMU PARGAASO SADAA RAHUN SARNAI

We may continue
May be excused for any err SATiGURU may help me

WITH REGARDS

PRAKASH.S.BAGGA


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 15, 2010)

All Respectable Viewers and Readers,

I would like to make clear to all my respectable viewers and readers that in this thread we are discussing a very very deep subject.
Whatever I present here should be taken as my own perception of Gurbaani understanding by the grace of SATiGURU Ji. You may or may not agree to my perception.So I should not be taken otherwise.
 I hope excused for any mistake if possible should be brought to my notice for my correction.
I look forward to your cooperation 
With regards to every body
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Sep 15, 2010)

My understanding is that naam is much more than a name. Japji details the attributes of God. We should aspire to those attributes so it follows that naam japna is more related to the way we behave to achieve this. Naam japna is how to live our life as Gurbani also states that simple meditation or repeating a name has limited effect. These are just my thoughts!


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 15, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> My understanding is that naam is much more than a name. Japji details the attributes of God. We should aspire to those attributes so it follows that naam japna is more related to the way we behave to achieve this. Naam japna is how to live our life as Gurbani also states that simple meditation or repeating a name has limited effect. These are just my thoughts!




What is Naam is a very deep and complex topic.  On one level Naam is often translated simply as "Name."  A few weeks ago I had a rather strange experience.

During the worst of the BP oil debacle, it was suggested that, for several reasons, this could effectively kill off the life of the Gulf of Mexico, spread to the whole Caribbean, onto the Atlantic, then to the other oceans, and eventually resulting in the extinguishing of life on this planet.  I will not debate the possibility or probability of this;  it is just some necessary background.

I was sitting in our backyard lawnswing on a beautiful summer day.  Birds were singing, our garden was flourishing and the flowers were in full bloom.  A slight breeze wafted through the yard.  Perfection of a sort.  

Then - it was all gone.  The swing was there, the houses were there, but everything else was just gone.  A grey, lifeless mass was all that remained of what had been alive and growing.  The only life there was my conscioiusness.  And yet it was all alive;  the boundaries between living and nonliving disappeared, there was no me and everything else, there was not even us, there was only oneness.  

The living things reappeared, but the oneness remained.  There was no Mai, no tree, no house, no squirrel, it was all an absolute unity.   It faded into normal consciousness except everything around me was unspeakably beautiful.  Of course, such experiences cannot be accurately described;  I just do my best.

This is another, partial definition of Naam.  I think. of Naam.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 15, 2010)

Findingmyway
DIVINE GREETINGS
In Sikh Philosophy as envisaged in Gurbaani a true Gursikh  should know THEWORD GUROO only, Should live with THEWORD GUROO only and depart from this world with THE WORD GUROO only.For a Gursikh there is nothing beyond THE WORD GUROO only
In view of this if we deliberate THE WORD GUROO you are likely to understand the real meaning of NAAMu.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 15, 2010)

MAI HARINDER KAUR Ji
GUROO FATEH PARVAN HOWE Ji
You have rightly mentioned that NAAM is complex and deep.This is so till you get the knowledge for what you are looking for,once you get the knowledge  the same thing becomes simple.
As a matter of fact many of us are not aware as to what we have to know from Gurbaani which is our present GUROO.The teachings of our Gurus are present withinGurbaani so we should try to grasp the intrisic message of the teachings.
This should be our main target.
In fact as I have experienced,from Gurbaani  we must get the knowledge about 
SATiGURu.Then SATiGURu will provide the knowledge of NAAMu.Once you get the knowledge of NAAMu from your SATiGURu then you will be able to know how complex the NAAMu is .
So let us find our SATi GURu.This you will have to find yourself from Gurbaani making a sincere request to the present GUROO.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 16, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> MAI HARINDER KAUR Ji
> GUROO FATEH PARVAN HOWE Ji
> You have rightly mentioned that NAAM is complex and deep.This is so till you get the knowledge for what you are looking for,once you get the knowledge  the same thing becomes simple.
> As a matter of fact many of us are not aware as to what we have to know from Gurbaani which is our present GUROO.The teachings of our Gurus are present withinGurbaani so we should try to grasp the intrisic message of the teachings.
> ...



I am really a very simple Sikh and am way out of my depth on such subjects.  

At one time, before the stroke that took my Punjabi, I could read and study Gurbani much better than I can now.  Functioning with about 75% of my brain, relearning is slow and very difficult.  (What I have lost verbally seems to have been replaced with visual creativity.  It's all a trade-off.)

So, I do as I am able.  When it is Hukam of Vaheguru, I will know.


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## Ecumenigal (Sep 16, 2010)

Regarding the difference between the original teachings and what is expressed in the culture:  I have seen this a lot, as I have been a "religion gypsie". I've always longed for the group practice and sense of community that I imagine would come from being an actual member of a religion that I could really say I believed in.  There are many religions that hold deep wisdom, and I can come close to embracing it, but the disconnect between the theology itself and the way the culture expresses it is often so different that my individual appreciative "take" on the theology doesn't get me any closer to experiencing the community that I long for.  Maybe it is a "Holy Grail" I only imagine exists, where I could share the experience of spiritual longing and ecstasy with people who "speak my language" and "get it".  

Very often I have befriended Christian spiritual leaders who privately agree with my views on things, but dare not admit it to their congregations. (One Methodist minister told me that he thought MOST Christian ministers, excluding the charismatic, pentecostal types, were secretly universalists.)

When I myself was a religion student, I suffered from the phenomenon that education is inherently a destructive process, as it tears down old understandings in order to add new information. It was hard for me that my Methodist minister turned atheist professor never came back around to acknowledging that there was something useful or worthwhile in the religions that he was tearing apart with archaeological and historical information. 

A Mennonite minister friend said that this was an almost universal complaint of Seminary students. Education makes things go from black and white to shades of grey. I never did have a black and white view or a solid faith, but being a religion major made things complex to the point that claiming to know anything for sure, or even putting strong faith in anything, became beyond absurd. 

But back to talking specifically about the difference between core teachings and cultural expressions: I remember reading a story about Ghandi reading the Bible and taking a great interest in Christianity, calling it the most complete religion. He was very excited to meet some Christians, but became disappointed and lost interest when he found that there was no human embodiment of the religion that he saw in those pages. 

I feel the same way about the religion that I was born into (but not raised in), Mormonism. There is a lot to appreciate about it. I affectionately call it "Vedic Christianity". I generally read the Bible through Vedic eyes, and what I see is a Jesus who was teaching Vedic wisdom. I see this especially because I have read the Essene Gospels of Peace, a Rosicrucian book called "The Mystical Life of Jesus" and a few books presenting evidence that Jesus traveled and learned in the east. 

But ultimately, it holds no meaning for me to call myself a Christian or a Mormon if there is no community embodiment of what it is I see and appreciate in those religions.  

I can wholeheartedly agree with the basic tenets of the Sikh religion, and yet I can see on various websites that human nature creeps in there and, as the original poster said, people make divisions and feel that they have the "one true religion". There is a great TED talk by Jonathan Haidt on moral humility and why we humans gravitate toward "one right way" thinking.  I can also see some ironies, like rejecting all legalism and yet adopting some new forms of it.

However, I'd like to take this opportunity to express how heart-warming it is to be on these forums and see that that basic tenets of Sikhism DO shine through. I had just been having a terrible time trying to fit in on some Mormon forums because I live in a 90% Mormon area and it would be so convenient if I could see my way clear to join them, or at least be active in the community.  But, even though Mormonism is, I think, the most universalist of Christian religions (everyone goes to some level of heaven, there is no Hell, you don't have to become a Mormon in this life to be OK, and we're all co-eternal with God, having no beginning and no end) it is also one of the most prostletyzing religions with the boldest claims to having a unique spiritual authority on the Earth. This side of the religion plays into the human ego quite a lot, and I find it very difficult to avoid becoming the recipient of very disrespectful prostelyting behavior. 

When I came to this site, and first read the "New to Sikhism" forum thread on the language barrier, it actually brought tears to my eyes that people were so very polite, offered the possibility of being wrong, and blessed each other even in disagreement. 

So, my point in all this rambling is that from the perspective of this new seeker of Sikhism, the original teachings of universal love and respectfulness DO shine through, loud and clear, more than any other religious community that I have visited. 

This touched my heart when I really needed some healing, and I thank you for that.wahkaurcheeringkudiwahkaur


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## Astroboy (Sep 16, 2010)

It will be good if references from Gurbani are given. So that there can be a point of focus for this discussion.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 16, 2010)

MAI HARINDER KAUR JI
PL ACCEPT MY DIVINE GREETINGS,
I am extremely thakful to you for your heart felt response.I am sorry if I have given you any botheration.
From the contents of your response you are already  connected with SATiGURU and you are experiencing the blessings of NAAMu.I wish I would touch your feet.I would always pray HARi Ji to bless you with good health and be always wiyh you/
With kind regards
Prakash.s.bagga


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 16, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> MAI HARINDER KAUR JI
> PL ACCEPT MY DIVINE GREETINGS,
> I am extremely thakful to you for your heart felt response.I am sorry if I have given you any botheration.
> From the contents of your response you are already  connected with SATiGURU and you are experiencing the blessings of NAAMu.I wish I would touch your feet.I would always pray HARi Ji to bless you with good health and be always wiyh you/
> ...



LOL, botheration is a function of ego, not to be taken seriously, however bothering it is.  My own ego, that.  It's infinitely better not to stomp on the other person's ego needlessly.  My ego is alive and well and kicking, but you didn't bother me at all.  Or only for a very brief moment.  

I intensely dislike the Indian custom of touching the feet, perhaps because I was born and raised in North America.  All else aside, it intends to inflate the ego.  Anyway, I have promised to kick the next person who tries.  Crores times better to touch the feet of the Guru by the matha tek to Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj.  That inflates no one's ego.  

As I said, I am a simple Kaur and I would love to retire from my public cyberlife.  I never intended to be noticed.  It's only that I just can't keep my big mouth shut.


I like ice cream.  It's very chardi kala!  icecreamkudi


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## Astroboy (Sep 16, 2010)

> I have been a "religion gypsie". I've always longed for the group  practice and sense of community that I imagine would come from being an  actual member of a religion that I could really say I believed in.   There are many religions that hold deep wisdom, and I can come close to  embracing it, but the disconnect between the theology itself and the way  the culture expresses it is often so different that my individual  appreciative "take" on the theology doesn't get me any closer to  experiencing the community that I long for.



Guru Nanak was asked, "Who is your Guru, your Master ?" He replied, "The Shabda is the Guru. My soul is His disciple."

How Shabad is described in SGGS:
ਭੁਗਤਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਦਇਆ  ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਵਾਜਹਿ  ਨਾਦ  ॥ 
भुगति गिआनु दइआ भंडारणि घटि घटि वाजहि नाद ॥ 
Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ. 
Let spiritual wisdom be  your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad  vibrates in each and every heart. 

It is very apparent that the words Shabad, Bani and Naam has been used interchangeably to express the same experience.


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## manes_palam (Sep 16, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

ssa akal ji ,

ram waheguru rahim jagdish  .....so many words which direct us towards creator is used by the gurus in the gurbani

by this they are also creating a paradox that god has no name .....  they are all given by human kind .......hence they are only directions towards formless/ nameless.......    after you reach the destination one becomes silent ..........cannot speak a word coz  words become smaller to be told of such a big truth(god).....    i havent reached anywhere this is not my experience only  a  interpretation of japji sahib .....

thank you 




prakash.s.bagga said:


> Respectable JASPI Ji
> Accept my Divine Greetings
> From the contents of your message I am convinced that the frequencies of our thought are same.Your contents are true reflection of your clear understanding about the messages of Gurbaani
> I maybe allowed to simply realign your contents  just to be more specific.Although the whole Gurbaani is full of DIVINE WORDS and can not be classied in any way.But still for the sake of convinience we find that the Gurbaani messages can be grouped in three as under
> ...


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## Harry Rakhraj (Sep 16, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*

There is a truism *" Religion is Spirituality gone wrong."* The Muse goes on to add that it's the 'regimentation', the 'organization' that goes towards the wrong. If it is a Truism, then Sikhism, being a religion, is subject to the laws of this Truism--- no exceptions made or expected.

Be that as it may, I see no reason for anyone, least of all a Sikh, to despair at this sullying ...this mutilation at the hands of people following an agenda patently different from the ideal.

It gives me great solace to remember that the Great Guru jis are like the sun itself whose very 'dharma' is to keep on radiating  light, warmth, life-force. And never to waver from this _dharma_ irrespective of whether the life-force falls on receptive humanity or a mound of crap.

I also take refuge in the fact that 'dharma' ( I make no excuses for my abhorrence of the _phirangi_ word 'religion') is a very private and personal matter; and that my _dharma _does not place any onus on me to proselytize.

_Gurufateh._


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## findingmyway (Sep 16, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> LOL, botheration is a function of ego, not to be taken seriously, however bothering it is.  My own ego, that.  It's infinitely better not to stomp on the other person's ego needlessly.  My ego is alive and well and kicking, but you didn't bother me at all.  Or only for a very brief moment.
> 
> I intensely dislike the Indian custom of touching the feet, perhaps because I was born and raised in North America.  All else aside, it intends to inflate the ego.  Anyway, I have promised to kick the next person who tries.  Crores times better to touch the feet of the Guru by the matha tek to Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj.  That inflates no one's ego.
> 
> ...




Please continue to share the chardi kala ice cream as many of us love to share with you  icecreamkaur


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 16, 2010)

NAAMJAP Ji
Pl Accept my DIVINE GREETINGS

By the grace of SATiGURu Ji I would share of my Gurbaani perception for the conents of the message related to the concept of Guru,Shabad and Baani.
I find that we are not giving any importance to the Grammer of Gurbaani words.IF WE DONT DO SO  we shall always be confused regarding the true message of Gurbaani understanding.
If we carefully pay attention to the words of Gurbaani we find that It is the word SHABADu being reffered as GUROO[Not the word SHABAD} Gramatically the word SHABADu is SINGULAR.This consideration totally changes the reference meaning what it should be.
Quote from Gurbaani.The line is

SHABADu GUROO SURTi DHUNi CHELAA pp943SGGSJi

Secondly it is impotant to understand the grammer of the word GUROO itself.I have realised that the understanding of grammer of this word GUROO is the very first step
to forward further understanding of the whole of Gurbaani

SECONDLY THE WORD NAAMu is again Gramatically SINGULAR
THIRDLY the word BAANI is Gramatically SINGULAR

All the above words though being SINGULAR are not interchageable as their reference 
meanings are different..

I may provide a clue for the reference meanings to be different you can analyse and verify.
In Gurbaani we come across three types of word GUROO[This word has two lines under its last letter  R] ,....GURU[ this word has single line under its last letter R] and ..the word GUR[this word has no line iunder its last letter R]
The above three words are different withreference to grammer therefore different reference meanings'Knowing this and their interrelation ship is KEY to the understanding of the whole Gurbaani
We all are stuck up here onlythat is why we differ in our Gurbaani perception
Whatever is presented you must verify yourself.
With best wishes and Regards
Prakash.s.Bagga


,


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## Astroboy (Sep 16, 2010)

Prakash.s.Bagga Ji,

Prof. Sahib Singh is the advocate as regards to Grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Let's discuss what explanation he brings out with regards to this tuk:-

ਪਵਨ  ਅਰੰਭੁ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਮਤਿ  ਵੇਲਾ  ॥ * ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ  *॥ ਅਕਥ  ਕਥਾ  ਲੇ  ਰਹਉ  ਨਿਰਾਲਾ  ॥   ਨਾਨਕ  ਜੁਗਿ  ਜੁਗਿ  ਗੁਰ  ਗੋਪਾਲਾ  ॥   ਏਕੁ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਕਥਾ  ਵੀਚਾਰੀ  ॥   ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਅਗਨਿ  ਨਿਵਾਰੀ  ॥੪੪॥   

ਪਵਨ = ਪ੍ਰਾਣ। ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਧੁਨਿ = ਸੁਰਤਿ ਦੀ ਧੁਨਿ, ਲਗਨ, ਟਿਕਾਉ। ਅਕਥ = ਉਹ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਆਨ  ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ। ਰਹਉ = ਮੈਂ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। {ਨੋਟ: ਉਪਰਲੀ ਪਉੜੀ ਦੇ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਰਹਹੁ' ਦੇ  ਜੋੜ ਦਾ ਇਸ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਫ਼ਰਕ ਧਿਆਨ-ਯੋਗ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ "ਤੁਸੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹੋ"}। ਜੁਗ  = ਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ। ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ = ਹਰੇਕ ਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ। ਗੋਪਾਲ = ਧਰਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਲਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਏਕੁ  ਸਬਦੁ = ਕੇਵਲ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ। ਜਿਤੁ = ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਨਿਵਾਰੀ = ਦੂਰ ਕੀਤੀ।੪੪।

*(ਉੱਤਰ* * ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਹੀ ਹਸਤੀ ਦਾ ਮੁੱਢ ਹਨ। (ਇਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ) ਸਮਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈਣ  ਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਮੇਰਾ) ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ, ਮੇਰੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਟਿਕਾਉ (ਉਸ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ) ਸਿੱਖ ਹੈ। ਮੈਂ  ਅਕੱਥ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਗੁਣ ਗਾ ਕੇ) ਮਾਇਆ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ  ਹਾਂ। ਤੇ, ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਉਹ ਗੁਰ-ਗੋਪਾਲ ਹਰੇਕ ਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ। ਕੇਵਲ ਗੁਰ-ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ ਹੈ  ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹੀ)  ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਹਉਮੈ (ਖ਼ੁਦ-ਗਰਜ਼ੀ ਦੀ) ਅੱਗ (ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਦੂਰ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ।੪੪।*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 16, 2010)

NAAMJAP Ji
Pl accept DIVINE GREETINGS
Than you very much for indicating the complete quote in Gurmukhi.I shall also try to quote in Gurmukhe it would be more appropriate.
I may inform you that my interest in Gurbaani is credited to the ten volumes of Gurbaani interpretations.I have great respect for Prof Sahib Singh ji as His contribution is marvelous.
I deeply studied the Gurbaani Grammer written by Prof Sahib ji and Second Gurbaani grammer books written by S JOGINDER SINGH TALWARA[Two volumes}
this again a beautiful treatise on Gurbaani Grammer. 
Inspite of the studies of these books I still felt something grossly missing for better and
more clear understanding of Gurbaani.One day it struck to me to acquire a proper knowledge of SANSKRIT GRAMMER.In my school studies I had Sanskrit as my regular subject.
Surprisingly when I applied the concept of the pattern of SANSKRIT GRAMMER to the words which are ADJECTIVES/and or NOUNS a different concept of Gurbaani understanding emerged and I could get into the intrisic meaning of the Gurbaani wordswith more clarity. It is this conecpt perception which is certainly quite differentthan what has been said so far..But I can assure you there is nothing outsde the purview of SGGS ji
I have noticed that so farall our preachers and scholars have oversighted the real pattern of Grammer for Adjectives and Noun words.It is this oversightness whch is enabling us to know what is right or wrong.

In this reference  you must have noticed we all tend to interprate Gurbaani using the words which are not the contents of SGGGS ji s language.eg 
In India we use the word PARMATMA in interpretation of Gurbaani.You will surprise to note that this word is not at all content in SGGS ji.
Similarly I find that we make use of the word GOD to make the understanding of Gurbaani.Again the word GOD too is not a word of Gurbaani Vocabulary.
I am not against these words.These words have their own relevance.But to what extent the use of these words helps us inunderstanding of Gurbaani.This is doutful.

I am presenting you as to where we are lacking and what we should improve so that a true and real concept of GURU NANAKcan be established.
I may tell you frankly in Sikh phylosophy there is nothing beyond THE WORD GUROO which is reffered in your quote as SHABADuGUROO.{Not SHABADGUROO}..We should try to understand this very clearly.
Sorry for such a long contents but I felt this important for your consideration
With regards
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 16, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> Please continue to share the chardi kala ice cream as many of us love to share with you  icecreamkaur



This is full-fat, full-flavour ice cream that won't cause weight gain, no matter how much you eat.  Rather like the feast we call Sikhi.  icecreammundaicecreamkudi


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## Astroboy (Sep 16, 2010)

> I may tell you frankly in Sikh phylosophy there is nothing beyond THE  WORD GUROO which is reffered in your quote as SHABADuGUROO.{Not  SHABADGUROO}..We should try to understand this very clearly.
> Sorry for such a long contents but I felt this important for your consideration
> With regards
> PRAKASH.S.BAGGA



I think it is better if you open your cards and pour out your views as it would be easier to discuss them in length and breath. 

~ namjap ~


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 16, 2010)

There is a quote from SGGS Ji

"JO DISAE GURSIKHADA TISu NIV NIV LAGAu PAAE JIO"

Can someone write the actual meaning of above?
Prakash s Bagga


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## Ecumenigal (Sep 16, 2010)

*Re: Introducing Myself*



Harry Rakhraj said:


> There is a truism *" Religion is Spirituality gone wrong."* The Muse goes on to add that it's the 'regimentation', the 'organization' that goes towards the wrong.]
> 
> I like this.  Since truth is paradoxical and fluid (at least in relationship to the inadequacy of words to pinpoint it), as soon as you institutionalize the method for passing on teachings, you loose quality and precision.  For a teaching to become a religion, it has to become institutionalized. In this way you have "quality control". The reward for this is that the teachings can be shared with more people, hopefully to benefit more people. The down side is that you loose the precision available through the more flexible one-on-one teaching format.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 16, 2010)

Dr. H. S. Virk has submitted an article,  *Glimpses of a Scientific Vision in Sri Guru Granth Sahib,* that is very interesting and highly pertinent to this discussion.  Unfortunately, it is too long to post here.  It can be found at

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ntific-vision-sri-guru-granth.html#post133371


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 16, 2010)

pl consider the following Quote from SGGS Ji

"SIKHI SIKHIAA GUR VICHARi  NADARI KARMi LANGHAYE PAARi ...pp465

SIKHI thought as envisaged in terms of Icevream is fully appreciable when we think on above.. Quote from Gurbaani.
GUR VICHARi as Icecream is really very cool and meets all requirement as mentioned by our revered MAI HARINDER KAUR Ji .Thaks for such a practical ANALOGY.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Astroboy (Sep 16, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is a quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> 
> "JO DISAE GURSIKHADA TISu NIV NIV LAGAu PAAE JIO"
> 
> ...



Prakash Ji,

It is important for you to explain your stand on any particular tuk by yourself and allow us to scrutinize your understanding. If you're here to learn, then this is the way you could start. I believe learning is an on-going process.

~namjap~


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 17, 2010)

NAAMJAP Ji.Pl Accept Divine Greetings
As a matter of fact there are no secret cards to opened.I have just coneyed the significance of Grammer in Gurbaani understanding.Grammer is an open subject.If you find anything wrong with the concept of grammer already presented then pl let me know I can clarify further.
Regarding my saying that there is nothing beyoun the word GUROO I may clarify this .You must have noticed that Base of Gurbaani is the word GUROO.We all try to interprate Gurbaani with reference to Guru s in person. Gurbaani is telling us that There is SHABADu{SINGLE WORD} reffered as GUROO.The source of the whole Gurbaani is this SHABADuGUROO.We never try to interprate Gurbaani with reference to SHABADu as GUROO.
Pl conside the Quote from SGGS Ji
"SACHu POORae GURi UPDESIAA
 NANAKu    SUNAAWae"             BASANT KI VAR M.5

From above it is sufficiently clear even GURU NANAK Ji is not making any claim for Gurbaani.
In view of above we should analyse as to what is the Significance of SHABADuGUROO
With regards 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 17, 2010)

MANES-PALAM
Pl Accept Divine Greetings,
Having gone thru your message I appreciate your views very much.What I feel is that NAMELESS is the reference of the state of the CREATOR in its NON -ACTIVE  condition also known as SUNUUM STATE where nothing exist.
But Gurbaani is the Divine messages of the CREATOR  in its active STATE.These messages are in terms of praise of ACTIVE STATE of the creator in terms of DIVINE WORDS....This we come to know from JAP ji as .AKHARI NAAMU AKHARI SALAHA,AKHARI GIYANU GEET GUN GAAH
With Regards
Prakash .S.Bagga


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## Astroboy (Sep 17, 2010)

> You must have noticed that Base of Gurbaani is the word GUROO.We all try  to interprate Gurbaani with reference to Guru s in person.


That assumption might not entirely be correct because the Mentors and Forum Leaders including regular members already know that the physical body isn't the guru. The Shabad is. 

I would like to know what is your understanding of "Shabad".


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 17, 2010)

All respectable viewrs and readers
I think i am being misunderstood in my writings.I am not here to claim any supremacy in the knowledge of Gurbaani.I could make certain observations which I thought couldbe of some use if these observations are shared in a positive way.
In a nut shell I am presenting  my perception as to how to get the intrisic understanding of Gurbaani words.We are here to deliberate on the Divine words of the GUROO.Deliberation is only a small part of understanding.

If we dont wish or like deliberation then we must discontinue this thread.I was quite aware at the start itself about the sensitivity of the subject.We all human beings come from unknown source to complete the journey.We all have our own different thought process and it is SATIGURU only to impart the knowledge of NAAMu.

I wish  , May SATiGURU  bless every one with knowledge  of GURMATiRAMNAAMu

Withbest wishes and regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Astroboy (Sep 17, 2010)

Prakash.s.Bagga Ji,

Here in SPN, it is quite understandable that with our grammatical understanding of the verses, the real meaning should be discussed in order to understand the journey we have to take from A to B. 

~ namjap ~


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## jasi (Sep 17, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

PRAKASH S BAGGA Ji.

My understanding is that  Guru Gobindh Singh Ji Maharaj clearly stated that Shabad is Guru That  is why Guru Gobindh Singh Maharaj  put end to all successions of any  future Guru and there for enjoined upon creating a system to accept  Granth Sahib  as our Guru for eternity and accept Shabad as our Guru.

The  most important contribution to the world is to create a khalsa by  dimensioning all the beliefs of cast system and follow Guru  Nanak 's  continue preaching that we all come from one light.

Khalsa is created even equality between Guru and Chela became the same.

 Khalsa was created on continue beliefs and constant preaching to abolish  the cast system by nine Gurus where Hindu and other upper Jaties were   felt threatened to loose their century old privileges of being superior  cast was in danger. They did complained to rulers at that time that the growing faith by our Gurus is a threat to them.

*Remarkable even in today's society where world is struggling for  equality and most of the democratic countries has enshrined human rights  in their constituencies to **protect all regardless of their religion beliefs,colors ,race ,gender, which was higly criticized,condemned by Guru Nanak dev ji*,*but we are going backwards on our own Gurus to believe in cast system by adding family names to identify our cast (Jaties) .

That is the platform on which our faith is standing since Guru Nanak  Dev Ji  blessed all the world with HIS teachings and made us universal  faith. *


 Reforms always start from an individual not by changing the world or  by  preachings .If one believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's blessing to teach the  equality among all human race  then must follow the teachings to start *first step* *of mending one self's belief in practical manners.

Jaspi
* 



prakash.s.bagga said:


> MANES-PALAM
> Pl Accept Divine Greetings,
> Having gone thru your message I appreciate your views very much.What I feel is that NAMELESS is the reference of the state of the CREATOR in its NON -ACTIVE  condition also known as SUNUUM STATE where nothing exist.
> But Gurbaani is the Divine messages of the CREATOR  in its active STATE.These messages are in terms of praise of ACTIVE STATE of the creator in terms of DIVINE WORDS....This we come to know from JAP ji as .AKHARI NAAMU AKHARI SALAHA,AKHARI GIYANU GEET GUN GAAH
> ...


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 17, 2010)

The essence of my being, your being, everything's being is the Harjot  (lovely name!)  Once that is experienced/realised, everything else follows.  The rest is just commentary.  The Tao Te Ch'ing is correct here.  People love to complicate things.

For some reason, this reminds of that scene in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ when the swordsman does his fancy dance of attack and Indiana Jones takes out his gun and shoots him.

Guru ji is so sweet!  icecreamkauricecreamkudiicecreammundawahkaur


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## spnadmin (Sep 18, 2010)

Some very interesting philosophical points, at times very moving statements, are made in this thread. 

However, asking what is the meaning of "shabad" is a relevant question and I hope that some of those in discussion take it up.

*Also, when we quote from Sri Guru Granth Sabib Maharaj ji, one line is not enough. Please do remember the forum rule to post the entire shabad, and then interpret it. Try to relate your understanding of the shabad to the other comments you have made. That way all of us learn. Thank you*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 20, 2010)

there is a school of thought regarding grammer of Gurbaani words that words which indicate Singularity of the word using a single line under the last letter of the word should not be pronounced. No one has ever questioned the reason for this concept.
Because of this school of thought there is lot of confusion in correct interpretation of Gurbaani.
We have never imagined the damaging effect of this school of thought .Since pronunciation has been avoided this results in correct writing of Gurbaani when anyone is going to write  the very impotant underline of the Gurbaani word is omitted thus there is total change in the form of Gurbaani words 
We all would notice that in traslation of Gurbaani to English or any other lanuage the form of the words of Gurbaani is changed.Very few translators have done excellent work by giving suitalble guideline for Singular words. Mostly we come Gurbaani translation with wrong words.
Due to above our interpretaion of Gurbaani understanding would always remain incorrect and ambiguous.This is also resulting in direct clashes of views.
Therefore it would be worthwhile to review this school of thought which is creating confusion only
We must talk to our academic scholars as well to know the exact state of this school of thought'
Unless we are able to differentiate betwieen Singularity or pluralty of the Gurbaani words
from the form of the word itself IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO GET THE TRUE MEANINGS OF GURBAANI .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 20, 2010)

NAMJAPJi,
Pl accept my Divine Greetings
I would like to share my understanding about the word SHABAD as indicated in your previous message.
Gramatically the word SHABAD is PLURAL and is therefore reference for several words to gether.These several words may be of same character or different characters depending upon the reference of context in consideration.
Gramatically the word SHABADu[single line under its last letter D] is SINGULAR and referes to A SINGLE WORD.   In Gurbaani the use of word SHABADu very common .
In Gurbaani we find that the Word SHABADu has been referred as GUROO[two lines under the last letter]

We must have full knowledge of the grammer this word GUROO as this is the very BASE 
word in Gurbaani.Gramatically this word GUROO is SINGULAR Noun its two lines under the last letter R,represent a pair of two things together.[This pair is two words of the same character]
Therefore we can write word GUROO as [GURU.GURU].Here the word GURU is again Singular Noun to represent something one only..
Thus in Gurbaani the meaning of SHABADuGUROO can be understood as 'A SINGLE WORD " being reffered as GUROO. It is now very important as to what is that SINGLEWORD being reffered as GUROO.?
The above  knowledge will be the starting  A for further understanding of Gurbaani

What ever is stated here is the grace of SATiGURu and nothing is mine.

With warm regards
Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## Astroboy (Sep 21, 2010)

> Thus in Gurbaani the meaning of SHABADuGUROO can be understood as 'A  SINGLE WORD " being reffered as GUROO. It is now very important as to  what is that SINGLEWORD being reffered as GUROO.?
> The above  knowledge will be the starting  A for further understanding of Gurbaani



<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਰਾਗੁ  ਆਸਾ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥ 
 रागु आसा महला १ ॥ 
 Rāg āsā mėhlā 1.
 Raag Aasaa, First Mehl: 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਛਿਅ  ਘਰ  ਛਿਅ  ਗੁਰ  ਛਿਅ  ਉਪਦੇਸ  ॥ 
 छिअ घर छिअ गुर छिअ उपदेस ॥ 
 Cẖẖi▫a gẖar cẖẖi▫a gur cẖẖi▫a upḏes.
 There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਵੇਸ  ਅਨੇਕ  ॥੧॥ 
 गुरु गुरु एको वेस अनेक ॥१॥ 
 Gur gur eko ves anek. ||1||
 But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਬਾਬਾ  ਜੈ  ਘਰਿ  ਕਰਤੇ  ਕੀਰਤਿ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
 बाबा जै घरि करते कीरति होइ ॥ 
 Bābā jai gẖar karṯe kīraṯ ho▫e.
 O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung - 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੋ  ਘਰੁ  ਰਾਖੁ  ਵਡਾਈ  ਤੋਇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 सो घरु राखु वडाई तोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
 So gẖar rākẖ vadā▫ī ṯo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
 follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ||1||Pause|| 

Prakash Ji,

Let's put it to test if this theory sticks. According to your recent finding, Shabad and Guru are singular which may mean single thing.

Does this verse own up to your suggestion?

ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਵੇਸ  ਅਨੇਕ  ॥੧॥ 

</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## jasi (Sep 21, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਵੇਸ  ਅਨੇਕ  ॥੧॥ 

Well said and well understood and appreciate Nam Jap Ji.

Jaspi


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 21, 2010)

NAMJAP Ji,
Pl accept my Divine Greetings

First of  all I may  clear my views that I have always mentioned that the Word SHABADu and GUROO are SINGULAR {Not the word SHABAD and GURU}
Secondly I must congratulate you for presenting the most appropriate verse from Gurbaani  to depict  the word {GURU.GURU} as indication for the word GUROO. You have righyly understood ,Sir.
This way we come to know the Grammer of the word GUROO and its Gramatical relationship with the word GURU.  This is only half the Knowledge about the word 
GUROO
[For complete knowledge about anything we must know  minimum two parameters of that particular thing.The two parameters are
1....Figure of thing and
2...Name of the thing
In absence of any one of parameterour knowledge about that thing will remain incomplete.]

Regarding the word GUROO we have so far  known  the Name of the SINGULAR WORD as GUROO.But we are still required to know the Figure of the SINGULAR WORD being reffered as GUROO.
Once we know this our Knowledge about the word GUROO will be complete.The knowledge of the Figure of the word GUROO is given in SGGS Ji WE are required to know this also
By the Grace of SATi GURU
With regards
Prakash.S.bagga

.


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## Astroboy (Sep 21, 2010)

Parkash Ji,

Can you simplify your explanation by citing examples from SGGS, so that an one can understand better. Right now you are saying Guroo and Guru are different - whereas SGGS is written in Gurmukhi script. If you want me to paste any Gurmukhi verse (to make it easier for you) to point the differences, let me know which one you want to discuss. I will post it in Gurmukhi for you.

~ namjap ~


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 21, 2010)

NAMJAP Ji
Pl accapt my Divine Greetings,
I am greatly thankful for your suggestion for use of Gurmukhi Script for Gurbaani as this would give more clear idea of the view. In fact I was just thinking about this and I saw 
your gesture.Certainly I shall do that .I would refer Page No from SGGSji you can do this accordingly.Once again thanks for your kind assistance.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Sep 21, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NAMJAP Ji,
> Pl accept my Divine Greetings
> 
> First of  all I may  clear my views that I have always mentioned that the Word SHABADu and GUROO are SINGULAR {Not the word SHABAD and GURU}
> ...



Dear Prakash Ji,
I am a little confused! We have had one Guru at a time throughout history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on the gurgaddi to Guru Angad dev ji and so on until Guru Granth Sahib Ji. When, why and how does Guru appear as plural in Gurbani?
Look forward to being enlightened with quotes and ang numbers.
Thanks,
Jasleen


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 21, 2010)

FINDINGMYW AYS,PL ACCEPT my Divine Greetings,
Thank you for your intersting question.
First let me clear you thatin my post I have so far not mentioned about the GURU appearing as PLURAL.
I may write a quote from Gurbaani as
"DHUR KI BAANI AAEE TINi SAGALI CHINT MITAAI
DAYAAL PURAKH MIHARWANA HARi NANAK SAACHu VAKHANA" pp627-628
From above quote we get to know that BAANI is of the DHUR.
Now the question is what is the source of the DHUR? IS IT GURU NANAK DEV Ji or 
ELSE
The answer to your question lies in understanding of above.
For any further clarification you are wecome to interact in the subject. I must appreciate your interest in Gurbaani.May SATiGURU be your guide
With best wishes
Prakash .s Bagga


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## findingmyway (Sep 21, 2010)

From reading the whole shabad dhur is Akal Purakh. Therefore shabad has come from Akal Purakh in the form of our Guru.
Jasleen


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## spnadmin (Sep 21, 2010)

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
sorath mehalaa 5 ||
Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl:


ਪਰਮੇਸਰਿ ਦਿਤਾ ਬੰਨਾ ॥
paramaesar dhithaa bannaa ||
The Transcendent Lord has given me His support.

ਦੁਖ ਰੋਗ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਭੰਨਾ ॥
dhukh rog kaa ddaeraa bhannaa ||
The house of pain and disease has been demolished.

ਅਨਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
anadh karehi nar naaree ||
The men and women celebrate.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
har har prabh kirapaa dhhaaree ||1||
The Lord God, Har, Har, has extended His Mercy. ||1||

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਭ ਥਾਈ ॥
santhahu sukh hoaa sabh thhaaee ||
O Saints, there is peace everywhere.


ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਭਨੀ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
paarabreham pooran paramaesar rav rehiaa sabhanee jaaee || rehaao ||
The Supreme Lord God, the Perfect Transcendent Lord, is pervading everywhere. ||Pause||



ਧੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈ ॥
dhhur kee baanee aaee ||
The Bani of His Word emanated from the Primal Lord.

ਤਿਨਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਚਿੰਤ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥
thin sagalee chinth mittaaee ||
It eradicates all anxiety.

ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨਾ ॥
dhaeiaal purakh miharavaanaa ||
The Lord is merciful, kind and compassionate.


ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੁ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥੨॥੧੩॥੭੭॥
har naanak saach vakhaanaa ||2||13||77||
Nanak chants the Naam, the Name of the True Lord. ||2||13||77||​
I have just posted the entire shabad from Ang 627/8. Respected forum members, it is essential that the entire shabad be posted so that the meaning of a tuk is clear. Famous are the words, _DHUR KI BAANI AAEE TINi SAGALI CHINT MITAAI
DAYAAL PURAKH MIHARWANA HARi NANAK SAACHu VAKHANA_

However, respected prakash.s.baggu ji. These are not 2 lines but 4, and the || notation is significant in conveying Guru Arjan Dev ji's intended meaning. And is not a matter of idle fascination with details. || is an important detail.  Meaning is carried by the structure.  Each of the 4 lines, not 2, ends with the || indicating they are working together, and follow from the rehao as a group, giving the  realization that comes to us from grasping the meaning of the rehao, 

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਭਨੀ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
paarabreham pooran paramaesar rav rehiaa sabhanee jaaee || rehaao ||
The Supreme Lord God, the Perfect Transcendent Lord, is pervading everywhere. ||Pause||

In other words, if you get the point of the rehao liine, Then those 4 tuks, not 2,  define the nature of the awakening that comes to you. Each is one aspect of the awakening. 

Please post the entire shabd, in the future, with Gurmukhi as well as English. It is a forum rule.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 22, 2010)

FINDINGSMYWAYS,Pl Accept my Divine Greetings,
I am extremely impressed with your wonderful message. 
I may bring to your kind notice the grammer of various words in your message .
SHABAD...Gramatically the word is PLURAL..Its SINGULAR is the word SHABADu
AKALPURAKH..The word is PLURAL..Its SINGULAR is the word AKALPURAKHu
GURU...........The word is SINGULAR

We say BAANI is GUROO {NOT GURU}.You may pl notice the words in Gurbaani.I am referering GUROO as a word as given in the SALOK at tha end as PAWAN GUROO>>>
The word GUROO and GURU are different with different grammer and different reference  meanings.
In view of above consideration you may refine your just WONDERFUL message.
With best wishes
Prakash.s.bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 22, 2010)

In Gurbaani we all come across in the following three important words.

1.GUROO........This is a word with two underlines beneath the letter R of the word

2..GURU..........This is a word with one line beneath the letter R of the word

3...GUR............No line beneath the letter R of the word.
These are very very important words of Gurbaani.In fact these words constitute the 
whole base of Gurbaani.
We do not make any differentiation in the reference meanings of these words because of  non application of proper grammer to the words.So we are a unable to contrue the  meaning of these words.Because we take all these words as ONE.
If we apply proper grammer to these words then we may come to a new concept of Gurbaani understanding which could be entirely different than what we know today.
Sometimes the meanings would be just diamatrically opposite than our present understanding.But We have to understand what our GURU is really telling .Then only we should able to say WAHi GUROO
The above concept  is "B " of Gurbaani understanding  as we are still at "A" of gurbaani ie THE Concept of SHABADuGUROO.
We shall definitely share the views of the above conept.But we must procced slowly and slowly giving due considerations to our present understanding of Gurbaani.
We can later on verify the usefulness of concepts from within SGGS Ji .
Prakash.s.bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 22, 2010)

NAMJAP Ji
Pl accept my Divine Greetings
 I would reqst you to display Gurbbani Shabad from pp864-865 GOND M.5
GURU MERI POOJA GURU GOBINDu in Gurmukhi script.
With regards
Prakash.s.bagga


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## spnadmin (Sep 22, 2010)

I would like to see a return to the main topic of the thread. The conversation has veered in the direction of important issues that may deserve a thread to themselves. It may be that the discussion of the grammar of shabadguru should be a separate thread. If the discuss of GURU cannot be wrapped up in the next few posts, then I will do that.


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## Astroboy (Sep 22, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NAMJAP Ji
> Pl accept my Divine Greetings
> I would reqst you to display Gurbbani Shabad from pp864-865 GOND M.5
> GURU MERI POOJA GURU GOBINDu in Gurmukhi script.
> ...



<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਗੋਂਡ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
 गोंड महला ५ ॥ 
 Gond mėhlā 5.
 Gond, Fifth Mehl: 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਮੇਰੀ  ਪੂਜਾ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ  ॥ 
 गुरु मेरी पूजा गुरु गोबिंदु ॥ 
 Gur merī pūjā gur gobinḏ.
 I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਭਗਵੰਤੁ  ॥ 
 गुरु मेरा पारब्रहमु गुरु भगवंतु ॥ 
 Gur merā pārbarahm gur bẖagvanṯ.
 My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਦੇਉ  ਅਲਖ  ਅਭੇਉ  ॥ 
 गुरु मेरा देउ अलख अभेउ ॥ 
 Gur merā ḏe▫o alakẖ abẖe▫o.
 My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਰਬ  ਪੂਜ  ਚਰਨ  ਗੁਰ  ਸੇਉ  ॥੧॥ 
 सरब पूज चरन गुर सेउ ॥१॥ 
 Sarab pūj cẖaran gur se▫o. ||1||
 I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਮੈ  ਥਾਉ  ॥ 
 गुर बिनु अवरु नाही मै थाउ ॥ 
 Gur bin avar nāhī mai thā▫o.
 Without the Guru, I have no other place at all. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਜਪਉ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਗੁਰ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 अनदिनु जपउ गुरू गुर नाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
 An▫ḏin japa▫o gurū gur nā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
 Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਰਿਦੈ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ॥ 
 गुरु मेरा गिआनु गुरु रिदै धिआनु ॥ 
 Gur merā gi▫ān gur riḏai ḏẖi▫ān.
 The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੋਪਾਲੁ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਭਗਵਾਨੁ  ॥ 
 गुरु गोपालु पुरखु भगवानु ॥ 
 Gur gopāl purakẖ bẖagvān.
 The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਕੀ  ਸਰਣਿ  ਰਹਉ  ਕਰ  ਜੋਰਿ  ॥ 
 गुर की सरणि रहउ कर जोरि ॥ 
 Gur kī saraṇ raha▫o kar jor.
 With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੂ  ਬਿਨਾ  ਮੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਹੋਰੁ  ॥੨॥ 
 गुरू बिना मै नाही होरु ॥२॥ 
 Gurū binā mai nāhī hor. ||2||
 Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਬੋਹਿਥੁ  ਤਾਰੇ  ਭਵ  ਪਾਰਿ  ॥ 
 गुरु बोहिथु तारे भव पारि ॥ 
 Gur bohith ṯāre bẖav pār.
 The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਸੇਵਾ  ਜਮ  ਤੇ  ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ  ॥ 
 गुर सेवा जम ते छुटकारि ॥ 
 Gur sevā jam ṯe cẖẖutkār.
 Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਅੰਧਕਾਰ  ਮਹਿ  ਗੁਰ  ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ  ਉਜਾਰਾ  ॥ 
 अंधकार महि गुर मंत्रु उजारा ॥ 
 Anḏẖkār mėh gur manṯar ujārā.
 In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਕੈ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਸਗਲ  ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ  ॥੩॥ 
 गुर कै संगि सगल निसतारा ॥३॥ 
 Gur kai sang sagal nisṯārā. ||3||
 With the Guru, all are saved. ||3|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੂਰਾ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀ  ॥ 
 गुरु पूरा पाईऐ वडभागी ॥ 
 Gur pūrā pā▫ī▫ai vadbẖāgī.
 The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਕੀ  ਸੇਵਾ  ਦੂਖੁ  ਨ  ਲਾਗੀ  ॥ 
 गुर की सेवा दूखु न लागी ॥ 
 Gur kī sevā ḏūkẖ na lāgī.
 Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਕਾ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਨ  ਮੇਟੈ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
 गुर का सबदु न मेटै कोइ ॥ 
 Gur kā sabaḏ na metai ko▫e.
 No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਸੋਇ  ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥ 
 गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ 
 Gur Nānak Nānak har so▫e. ||4||7||9||
 Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| 
 </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 22, 2010)

NAMJAP Ji
Pl accept my Divine Greetings
Thakyou very much for accepting my request.
We would find that this is a excellent Gurbaani shabad from GOND M5 wherein we come across three distict types of words as GURU,GUR,and GURoo'.
As the grammer of above three words is different but we are giving the same meaning as '
"GURU" only.
Considering grammer of the words the word GUR{In Gurmukhi script this word has no line
under its last letter},is PLURAL but we are giving meaning as GURU which is SINGULAR'
Gramatically these two words can not be equated.
Whereas the word GURU[as given inthe very first line of the shabad] is SINGULAR but we
have written in Engish as GUR and given the meaning as GURU.Here the meaning is correct but the translation of the word is incorrect.
For the word GUROO[in gurmukhi script a word with two lines under its last letter];Gramatically this word is SINGULAR but represnting pair of singular word as GURU.GURU.An impotnt point here is that these two words can be equated.
In a nut shell we can say
the WORD GURU can not be equated with the word GUR
The word GUROO can not be equated with the word GUR
The GUROO can be equated with the word GURU
 Accordingly the meaning GUROO GUR NAO is quite different than what we know as given.
Similarly the meaning of GUR KA SHABADu is different here GUR can not be reffered as GURU as the word GUR is PLURAL and the word SHABADu is SINGULAR[In Gurbaani the word is mostly SHABADu not SHABAD as we understand.
Actually the whole concept of understanding Gurbaani is Basically related to two important 
concepts
THE CONCEPT OF SHABADuGUROO as we have shared earlier and is going on
THe concept of SHABADu GUROO JOTi we are slowly moving towards this
As these two concepts become clear we shall be getting near to SATi GURU and this SATiGURU will give us the ultimate knowledge about GURMATi RAM NAAmu/HARiNAAMu/
RAMNAAMA/HARiNAAMA
By the Grace of SATiGURU nothing mine,
With regards 
Prakash S Bagga


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## findingmyway (Sep 22, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NAMJAP Ji
> Pl accept my Divine Greetings
> Thakyou very much for accepting my request.
> We would find that this is a excellent Gurbaani shabad from GOND M5 wherein we come across three distict types of words as GURU,GUR,and GURoo'.
> ...



Apologies Prakash Ji,
but i am more confused than ever!! If the translation of gur is wrong, then what is the correct translation? I still don't understand the concept of plural Guru's as we only ever had 1 guru at a time?!


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 22, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NAMJAP Ji
> Pl accept my Divine Greetings
> Thakyou very much for accepting my request.
> We would find that this is a excellent Gurbaani shabad from GOND M5 wherein we come across three distict types of words as GURU,GUR,and GURoo'.
> ...



Prakash Singh Bagga ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting take. But I have a request to make. Please interpret the Shabad that you had requested from Namjap ji in your own words with the understanding of Gurbani grammar you possess.

Only by comparative study of what is mentioned and with your knowledge we can understand the true meaning of the Shabad.

Hope to learn from your interpretation of the whole Shabad.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 23, 2010)

FINDINGMYWAY Ji,
ACCEPT DIVINE GREETINGS,
First of all I may request that there isno need to be apologetic as we are here to share our views.There is no reason why we should differ in our views.
I fully understand your confusion.The requirement is that you must first be sure about the view that Gurbaani words can be Gramatically SINGULAR and/OR PLURAL.For this you must refer any good Book on Gurbaani Grammer.Once you are clear about this view 
then probably you will be able to catch the point'
If you are following Englsh version of SGGS Ji then you will never be able get the view of the Gurbaani words being SINGULAR or PLURAL as I find that in English the Grammer indications of Original SGGS ji as in Gurmukhi script have been removed.
For proper abd better understanding of Gurbaani Messages it is pertinent that even in 
English version or in any other language the Gramtical indicationsmust be maintained
so that in any language there is no confusion in interpretation of Gurbaani.
I shall do my best to clarify the confusion.

With best wishes
Prakash.s.bagga
l


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 23, 2010)

NAMJAP Ji.
Pl accept my Divine Greetings
I would request to diplay THE GURBAANI Shabad " MERA MUN LOCHE GUR DARSAN TAAI"
pp96 SGGS Ji
Thanks and Regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Sep 23, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> FINDINGMYWAY Ji,
> ACCEPT DIVINE GREETINGS,
> First of all I may request that there isno need to be apologetic as we are here to share our views.There is no reason why we should differ in our views.
> I fully understand your confusion.The requirement is that you must first be sure about the view that Gurbaani words can be Gramatically SINGULAR and/OR PLURAL.For this you must refer any good Book on Gurbaani Grammer.Once you are clear about this view
> ...



Dear Prakash Ji,
As requested above, please can you explain the shabad previously posted with your understanding in your own words of each and every tuk. With this understanding, I think it will be easier to see what you are trying to demonstrate about plural vs singular


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## jasi (Sep 23, 2010)

SS Akal Ji.

The research of any kinds on any scriptures is for historian or writers but to have been blessed with blind faith is something else like DHANNA believed  in stone.

Gurubani leads our  ways to realizes the Supreme power not as much by understanding the words by words but faith in every words.

The rest is all wondering to have personal understandings which is also born by truthful longings.

Jaspi


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 23, 2010)

jaspi said:


> SS Akal Ji.
> 
> The research of any kinds on any scriptures is for historian or writers but to have been blessed with blind faith is something else like DHANNA believed  in stone.
> 
> ...



Just a personal opinion.  However we study Gurbani is fruitful.  There is no one approach that is the "right" way to study it.  What works and makes sense to one might be complete nonsense to another.  Poetic analysis works for one, scientific analysis for another, grammatical analysis for another.  How wonderful if all these approaches can be combined for a fuller understanding.  The wisdom of Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji maharaj cannot be exhausted.

I think the most important thing is to study, absorb the principles contained therein and apply them to our lives.  A good question to ask, I think, is "What does the author of this shabad (any shabad) mean to convey?"

Just my personal thoughts on the subject.

wahkaur


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## jasi (Sep 24, 2010)

S S AKAL JI.

Mai Harinder Kaur Ji.

Each words you have written in your message is 100 % real.

    When one is blessed with urge to seek something higher than himself it
    has never been achieved by readings or isolate oneself in Moutains
    Jungles until (JYOT) kindled his interest of realizing the Supreme being is
    set in one's heart.Guru


    Guru Nanak Dev Ji blessed us with Gurbani, to understand the SHABAD
    as a true path way to realizations of Supreme beings by any one who
    follows the Gurbani  by heart and mind. 

    To realize that one is strongly believe in fundamental principals on
     which Guru Nanak Dev JI created our faith is # 1 priority to practice 
     in our daily life as a first step to understand the Sikh philosophy and
     respect to our all gurus...

Jaspi






Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Just a personal opinion.  However we study Gurbani is fruitful.  There is no one approach that is the "right" way to study it.  What works and makes sense to one might be complete nonsense to another.  Poetic analysis works for one, scientific analysis for another, grammatical analysis for another.  How wonderful if all these approaches can be combined for a fuller understanding.  The wisdom of Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji maharaj cannot be exhausted.
> 
> I think the most important thing is to study, absorb the principles contained therein and apply them to our lives.  A good question to ask, I think, is "What does the author of this shabad (any shabad) mean to convey?"
> 
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 24, 2010)

DIVINE GREETINGS TO EVERY ONE,We must remember that "KNOWLEDGE IS TORCH" not the FAITH.
It is the result of knowledgeless faith that we believe and promote such stories like that of DHANA Ji  got union with SUPREME thru worship of STONE .This concept is absolutely against the Basic idiology of Gurbaani.
With FAITH {Without Knowledge} how can we think of achieving the  concept of KHALSA as envisaged by our GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji.
Our GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji  handed over a treasure of knowledge in the form of Gurbaani and what justice we are doing we all are required to introspect.
When we will have knowledge of what treasure  has been handed over to Sikhs for themselves as well as for the whole of humanity.
When we will have faith with the knowledge of treasure our faith will be enhanced
thousand times more than what we have today.We will be able to pass over the legacy of this treasure as it is.
You will appreciate the fact that this is the ONLY GURU GRANTH in the world which is aboriginal for the past 400 years.There is no scope of manupulating the contents of Gurbaani for this we Sikhs are greatly indebted to our GURU ARJUN DEV Ji.
On the conrary we instead trying to know thethe understanding as set by GURU ARJUN DEV Ji we present the interpretation in our own ways.
Is this our faith towards our GURUs.........A point to rethink

PRAKASH.S.BAGGA


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 24, 2010)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> DIVINE GREETINGS TO EVERY ONE,We must remember that "KNOWLEDGE IS TORCH" not the FAITH.
> It is the result of knowledgeless faith that we believe and promote such stories like that of DHANA Ji  got union with SUPREME thru worship of STONE .This concept is absolutely against the Basic idiology of Gurbaani.
> With FAITH {Without Knowledge} how can we think of achieving the  concept of KHALSA as envisaged by our GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji.
> Our GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji  handed over a treasure of knowledge in the form of Gurbaani and what justice we are doing we all are required to introspect.
> ...



Prakash Singh Bagga ji,

Guru fateh.

I am still very anxiously waiting for your interpretation with your grammar knowledge of the  first Shabad that you asked Namjap to post it.

I agree with you, knowledge is a torch. So please light my torch up with the help of your torch.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 24, 2010)

Respectable Tejwant Singh Ji,
Pl Accept my Divine Greetings,
I tried earlier two times to meet your mrssage requirement but unfotunately both times the message could not be delivered due to some hang up problem in my compu.
First of all I mtorchtay clear you that I am not a torch.With us we have TORCH of SHABADu of SATiGURu.I pray my SATiGURu to guide me .
I am sure are fully aware about the contents of the SHABAD GOND M5.This SHABAD is really a wonderful in that We can get the complete knowledge about the whole of Basic
concept of Gurbaani.
I may have to share some views regarding the concept of SHABADuGUROO JOTiin 
relation to the three principal words GUROO/GURU/GUR {Refer gurmukhi scriptonly}
From within SSG Ji we come to know that Baani is SHABAD TARANG i.e The waves of different DIVINE WORDS{REF pp1404SGGSji}.There are several other references in SGGS Ji confirming to this aspect of Gurbaani.
Now we can know that the concept of SHABADuGUROO JOTi is relted as the waves of THE WORd GUROO.
For Understanding the meaning of TUK of RAHAO of the SHABAD it is important to understand the reference meaning of the words GUROO.GUR.
To understand the difference in the reference meaning of the words GUROO and GUR we can consider a vivid example of the SUN and SUNRAYS.Just as SUN is one and SUNRAYS are infinite.Similarly We have A SINGLE WORD SHABADu GUROO and The waves of the WORD GUROO as GUR.
Therefore the word GUR is PLURAL.
Since any wave is characterised  by two parameters INFINITE and FINITE.
SO the SHABADu GUROO JOTi can be depicted as

            SHABADuGUROo>>>>>>GUROO.GUROO.GUROO.GUROO.GUROO...........infinite
                         GUROO            GURU.....................................................GUR
                       SINGULAR        SINGULAR                                               PLURAL

In Gurbaani we come across three references for the word GURU as
1  GURU=GUROO
2  GURU=GURU.GURU
3  GURU=GUROO.GUROO
All above references are visible in SGGS Ji

Now Considering the Concept of SHABADuGUROO and SHABADu GUROO JOTi we may come to the interpretation of the SHABAD GOND M 5
Interpretation of TUKof RAHAO
.........................................

There is no other place than POORA GURU ,I repeat the SINGLE WORD {NOUN}of SHABADuGUROO JOTi {GUROO.GUR}

To be conti......I would like to have your views before I proceed further
With WARM REGARDs
Prakash S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 24, 2010)

Respectable TEJWANT SINGH JI
In the last message there is some error the interpretation may be read as
"Without POORA GURU there is no other place
I,Everyday repeat the SINGLE WORD{NOUN} of SHABADu GUROO JOTi{GUROO.GUR}

May SATiGURu forgive me for the error
.........................................
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## jasi (Sep 24, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.
_
*Bhul Chuk Moaf but this is my strong belief on this issue seems to be as follows without lecturing any member's of this forum who has their own opinions.

FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS IN SIKHISM REGARDLESS OF ANY GENDERS OR CAST SYSTEM.
*
*FAITH LEADS TO KNOWLEDGE NOT KNOWLEDGE LEADS TO FAITH.

IF ONE IS ALREADY ENLIGHTENED (KNOWLEDGE)THEN  ONE DO NOT NEED A FAITH.

KNOWLEDGE OF SUPREME BEING IS LAST STAGE TO BE WITH SUPREME BEINGS.
*_
INFATUATIONS in many cases has lead the person to extreme faith thus on to process achieving the knowledge as one progress. The whole phenomena created by the blessing of who ever is one on focus may it be a object or human beings or to engaged in extensively to  realize the Supreme being.

Dhanna  story may be a man made one  but it gives a strong message what sincere blind faith can lead some one to realization of Supreme being.

Many stories are available which make one to pray the God or seek realizations of Supreme beings.In old age  most of the stories on Moral are to motivate the human society to great causes to achieve the realizations of the Supreme power.

Same thing does GURU GRANTH SAIB JI to motivate us through GURBANI (GURU"S SHABAD) to be able to realizes the Supreme beings.

There is another story of the man who was hanging in the well and noticed by a shepherd man. Shepherd man asked this hanging man with rope around his neck .What he was doing? The man replied I want to reach the God.

Is this the way you can reach the GOD ? asked the shepherd man. . 

The  man replied said  yes.

The shepherd man believed in hanging man and made himself small rope of grass when real one was not available.

Story continue to read that God appeared and pulled the shepherd man out of the well. The shepherd man surprised to see  God and asked a question how come you did not show HIS appearance to the man who has been hanging almost since one week before I did.?

Story further reveal that the God replied because he is hanging with strong rope for maximum protections to fall in the well and still attached to worldly attachments ,can not concentrate his thoughts to be realized by the Supreme power against your blind faith.

But you did not care about breaking of grass rope which may dry in one or two day and cause you to be drowned in the well. But your blind faith like DHANNA lead you to realization of Supreme beings.

The whole story convey us the bottom line  message that blind faith blessed by Supreme being which kindle one's soul and knowledge is achieved to spread in the rest of human race .

jaspi


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## findingmyway (Sep 24, 2010)

Blind faith leads *some* on a path away from Waheguru without them realising. Therefore some understanding is important to avoid this.
We would never sit out grandfather in the corner of the room and tell him to wear good clothes but keep quiet as we don't want to listen to him; respecting him outwardly and having faith he is the head of the household is enough. Then why are we treating our Guru this way?


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## jasi (Sep 24, 2010)

SS AKAL JI.

Yes it is important to have blind faith to seek Supreme being 's realizations (WaheGuru) because realization follow with blind faith. l Like DHANNA and many more who were blessed with realizations from Supreme beings.

Even Baba Farid Ji begged crow to eat all his  flesh but leave the two eyes because has blind faith to see his PRITAM.

We have the highest respect and faith in our Gurus who blessed the entire humanity with eternal Gurbani to lead us to realize the ultimate TRUTH (WAHEGURU).

Same we are enriched to respect our father and Grandfather and respect their valuable guidance.

jaspai


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 25, 2010)

RESPEC TABLE JASPIJi,
PL ACCEPT MY DIVINE GREETINGS,

I fully respect your faith and I have no objection to this faith.My view is only related to the idiology as given in SGGS Ji.
With regards,
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Sep 25, 2010)

*The thread is going nowhere. A request that a shabad be posted was honored a page or two back, but no one seems to have noticed.  It has already been pointed out that the discussion of Gurmukhi grammar, though important, is not central to the discussion. Yet the topic continues. There has been a recent detour into blind faith. It is important to read back in the thread and not reply to the last 2 or 3 things that have been said. The thread has been closed until further notice*


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