# Sikhism : An Offshoot Of Hinduism



## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

*
After being here on SPN and going through the opinions of various members on The God and the creation,Karma, Liberation and allied concepts of sikhism It is not wrong to say that sikhism is just an ultra modern form of Hinduism or Vedantism.

I do not have in depth knowledge of both the religions but to me it appears that both the religions are same  there is superficial difference  created for purpose. 

Excluding the outer appearance of the sikhs they intrinsically are just the Hindus.There is no essential difference between a sikh and a Hindu. If any one has a different opinion one may post and I shall reply mostly from Geeta i.e. stated to be the conceptually summarized format of Vedas and Upnishdas  and some other booklets published by the Leading publishers on Hinduism. I shall also have the liberty of quoting the opinion of the members of this forum from the various posts.

I am a sikh and have been trying to understand this as a different faith but fail to find any material difference between the two and do feel and understand as to why Indian Government has not classified it as a separate religion.


You will have to bear with my presentation and my English.*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

*I am totally dismayed by the comments of some members in the thread of Karmas and Will and etc,. and hence this dejection.*


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## Randip Singh (Jul 18, 2008)

No.

There are some similarties with Hinduism but many differences. One could say Sikhi has commonality with other faiths. For example, Daswand is a Semitic concept and is prevalent in Christianity and Islam (I think).

I anycase similarities with which branch of Hinduism? Vashnavite, Shivite? Hindu thought and belief is so difference it is difficult to define Hinduism, let alone comparing it with Sikhism.


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

Why are you dismayed? For me Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism, but that does not mean that we cannot continue to discuss similarities and differences. 

Another way to look at this is to say -- Sikhism and "Hinduism" with other religions comprise the dharmic traditions which include Sikhism, the Vedantic paths of India, Jainism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc.

One can reasonably argue that there is no religion called "Hinduism."

The actual term “Hindu” first occurs as an Old Persian geographical term (derived from the river _sindhu_), to identify the people who lived beyond the River Indus. However, the modern origin is derived from the Arabic texts - _Al-Hind_ (the Hind) referring to 'the land of the people of modern day India' - which then got vernacularised as Hindu.[3] In the world history “Hindu” was also used by all Mughal Empires and towards the end of the eighteenth century by the British to refer to the people of “Hindustan”, the area of northern and adjoining northwestern India. Eventually “Hindu” became equivalent to anybody of “Indian” origin who was not otherwise Sikh, Jain, or belonged to a religion of Abrahamic denomination, thereby encompassing a wide range of religious beliefs and practices.[4]

 One of the accepted views is that “ism” was added to “Hindu” around 1830 to denote the culture and religion of the high-caste Brahmans in contrast to other religions. The term was soon appropriated by Indians themselves as they tried to establish a national identity opposed to colonialism. [4]

 Due to the wide diversity in the beliefs, practices and traditions encompassed by Hinduism, there is no universally accepted definition on who a Hindu is, or even agreement on whether Hinduism represents a religious, cultural or socio-political entity. In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:[5]

"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion of creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

 Hindu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dharmic religions have similarities. Yet, they all differ from each other in significant ways. Religion is a living and organic phenomenon, and it rises up from the questions that people ask about their relationship with "God" and the Cosmos, over and over again, throughout centuries. Therefore, transformations occur. 

There is an analogy with the evolution of forms in nature. New species rise up from an earlier genetic form. These newer and older forms share similar biological structures, perhaps many similar DNA markers. But each species also has genetic features that define it as a distinctly different species, making it different from its genetic relatives. So it goes with religious belief systems. Distinctive features that make a religion what it is.

This is a pretty good description of what I am talking about
Dharma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Guru Fateh!


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

*Why No Randip ji.???

...It is immaterial with which branch of hinduism you compare the end result shall be the same. It is not about the GOd they believe in but the broad philosophy they profess. At macro level it is same. You may start at major differences of sikhism with any branch of hinduism as it is commonly understood.They are clear as to what they are doing though it may be professedly against sikhism but it does not mean that they are in any way inferior or sikhs are not doing the same things in almost similar ways.You may kindly take up  few specific points  that strikes to your mind. 

Regarding aad ji's query/observation it can be summed up as to the religion/faith that most Indians profess.Let that be for the sake of discussion be called as hinduism  without indulging in hair splitting. 

Hindustan[India] means place of living of Hindus. 

Else you are free to think of all that Sikhism is all against and that is why it came into being as the starting point. Which ever way it suits you. You are the best judge to think it out. I do not want to get involved in definitions at this stage.let us leave those for the purposes of ironing out,if required at all.

The definition of Hinduism as stated in wikipedia and as placed in aad ji's post is an excellent exposition of Hinduism. There cannot be any better wording for any faith or religion than that aad ji has quoted. Kudos to Hinduism.A religion without prophet But a religion Of God and for the God.

And this is also a pretty nice work that I have talked about aad ji.

01.Definition and Meaning Explained by aad ji
 
"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion of creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."*
* 
*


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## Astroboy (Jul 18, 2008)

Sikhism is not offshoot of Hinduism but an offshoot of Shiaism. Again there are many similarities but differences too. Do you want proof ?


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

[quote=namjap;83277]Sikhism is not offshoot of Hinduism but an offshoot of Shiaism. Again there are many similarities but differences too. Do you want proof ?[/quote]
*
Namjap ji, you seem to be joking.!!!!
Cheers!!!

We are discussiing Hinduism vs.Sikhism only.

You may begin a new thread and I shall participate as a sikh and you may take up shia...Done.

Cheers!!!!

P.S
Namjap ji , what happened to your signatures???
*


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2008)

Sikhi80 ji

You are sounding a little more upbeat!

*"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion of creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

*These are the words of a Chief Justice in India, dated 1995. And my thinking has changed since reading this statement. 

Consider what he has said. Sikhism does worship a particular god, the kartaar purak(h)u, who is akaal miraat(t)h, who is Sat Nam. Sikhism does subscribe to dogma: i.e., a system of belief. Sikhism does uphold distinctive philosophic concepts. Sikhism does possess specific rites that Sikhs know and recognize as their own as Sikhs. Skhs have an identity as a religion. Even the British recognized this "Sikhi" as  distinct. *

*Hinduism has been a way to identify a religion or belief system only in the last century. It follows that Sikhism cannot be an offshoot of Hinduism because as a belief system, as a paanth, Sikhism has existed for a longer period of time than "Hinduism." This is not splitting hairs. Sikhs thought of themselves as Sikhs from the time of the Guru's and Sikh beliefs were institutionalized in 1708 and not the 20th Century.*
*
Like you, I think -- there have been Hindus as long as I have been alive. So I think there must have always been "hindus" and there must have always been "hinduism."  But I was wrong. Who were the Hindu's before the time of the British raj, before the liberation of India?

For centuries people of the_ vedas_ did not call themselves "Hindus."  But  today we call the people of old, "Hindus."  What did the peoples of the _al-hind _ call themselves then in terms of religion? For centuries the people of India did not label themselves first and foremost according to a particular religion. Society was primarily organized along the lines of clan, lineage and tribe. And a clan and a tribe were closely associated region, a place. Along with one's clan also came an identity from one's  local culture - one's town or village. My guess is that religion and religious identity matched the religious practices of a particular region. The practices of a particular dera or mandir. These were people who followed a particular understanding of the vedas. They were not Hindus. They were *people of the vedas *as they understood these holy books. *

*The root is belief in "dharma." From the root of dharmic philosophy come the shoots, several off-shoots, including Sikhism.*


*


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## pk70 (Jul 18, 2008)

*Sikh 80 Ji*
*Since its conception, Sikhism is being considered a part of the existing religions in India. To support it, quotes from here and there are given to fulfill hopeful dreams. Truth prevailed and would due to the total approach of Sikhism. Only,  Amrit ceremony introduced by Guru Gobind Singh to turn victims into self defenders,  alone stands tall against their imaginative claims; however, there are other basics concepts which are extremely different   the way are described by Sikh founder like His Ordinance, His Grace and Mukti. To understand Sikhism, one has to look at the message of Guru Granth Sahib in totality. During guerrilla War, academic field was taken over by either disguised Hindus or the ones who had pretty much nostalgia of Hinduism. A lot of stuff is found in Rehatnamas written under the names of well known Sikhs which certainly is not part of Sikhi. Those cannot be verified with any Guru Bachan. Sohan Singh Seetal compiled a book” Sikh Sahit de some”( Sources of Sikh Literature) in which laughable contents are found that go totally against Historical facts.*
*The society where  Guru Nanak grew up in, had major two faiths, Islam and Hinduism though there were other sectarian ideology like Yog matt, Janism etc. Guru Nanak as enlightened one, had to address them in their own language and terminology to lead the seekers to the Ultimate Truth. Who were scared of this new religion of Guru Nanak, used  same terminology as a base to blend this new religion.. Vashanavites and Hindus were those who declared that those terms were already in Vedas etc so Sikhs Gurus are aligned with those, therefore it is a kind of Hinduism and Vashanavism . Surprisingly all these terms are given new meaning in SGGS stressing only on His **Nam** and love for Him obtainable only through Guru but still it depends on His grace.*
*This needs a thorough thesis to negate claims based on some similarities as they are there in every faith, however, lets take some examples from Guru Granth Sahib against Hinduism.*
*Caste.System: In Hinduism, it  is a base, in Balmiki Ramayin( Uttar Kand A 76)Ram Chandra is shown killing a  person belonging to low class just because he was doing bhagati, on his beheading, Devtas shower flowers. That is the bottom line, if the revered Devta Ram Chand does such heinous crime for Caste System, imagine how much it is deep into the psyche of the followers, contrary to it, Sikh Guru makes his followers to drink from one pot. Strong rejectio*n of  Caste System , more ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ॥ ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥ 
Salok mehlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā*o. Sabẖnā jī*ā ikā cẖẖā*o. Āphu jė ko bẖalā kahā*ė. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lėkẖai pā*ė. ||1|| 
Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak! 

*ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ **। 
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).( Bhai Gurdas Var 1)

*
*2**AVTAR. In Hinduism, God incarnates individually, Gurbani rejects it by calling them kings who were called as God incarnation*
ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥ 
Jugah jugah kė rājė kī*ė gāvahi kar avṯārī. Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā*i*ā ṯā kā ki*ā kar ākẖ vīcẖārī. ||7|| 
In every age the Lord creates the Kings who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits. What shall I then say and reflect upon? 
ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ॥੩॥ 
Ḏas a*uṯār rājė ho*ė varṯė mahāḏėv a*uḏẖūṯā. Ŧinĥ bẖī anṯ na pā*i*o ṯėrā lā*ė thakė bibẖūṯā. ||3|| 
There have been ten incarnations, Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes. 
*When outright, importance of these so called Gods, in pursuit of the Creator, is rejected, there should be no doubt, Sikh path has an originality. For Sikhs He manifests in His creation but does not incarnate, illusionary approach has no boundaries though, so they keep beating their drums loudly, but facts are there against their imaginative conclusions*
  Devta/Devi
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਸਭਿ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ ॥੨॥ 
Mā*i*ā mohė ḏėvī sabẖ ḏėvā. Kāl na cẖẖodai bin gur kī sėvā. Oh abẖināsī alakẖ abẖėvā. ||2|| 
Mammon has deluded all gods and goddesses. Death spares none without Guru's service. That Lord is Imperishable, Unseen, and Inscrutable. 
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ 
Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o ṯarai guṇ rogī vicẖ ha*umai kār kamā*ī. Jin kī*ė ṯiseh na cẖīṯeh bapuṛė har gurmukẖ sojẖī pā*ī. ||2|| 
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are afflicted with the ailment of three dispositions. They act in the spirit of I-am-ness. The poor ones remember not Him, who created them. The Lord's understanding is obtained, through the Guru. 
*Fast*
*Fasts are considered pious in Hinduism, Sikhism rejects them  outright*.
ਅੰਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥  ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਥੀਜੈ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੀਜੈ ॥੬॥ 
Ann na kẖāhi ḏėhī ḏukẖ ḏījai. Bin gur gi*ān ṯaripaṯ nahī thījai. Manmukẖ janmai janam marījai. ||6|| 
Some one takes, not food, and tortures his body. Without the Guru's wisdom he becomes not content. Such a perverse person is born only to die and be born again. 
*Tithi Vaar ( good or bad omen)*
*Hindus are grounded in initial pleasing of the demi gods they believe in before starting anything,  according to Gurbani  all these are chains of imaginative fears, Sikhs are advised to just thank HIM, do prayer to Him, that is it.*
ਸਗੁਨ ਅਪਸਗੁਨ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਹਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
Sagun apasgun ṯis ka*o lageh jis cẖīṯ na āvai. Ŧis jam nėṛ na āvī jo har parabẖ bẖāvai. ||2|| 
Good omens and bad omens befall him who remembers not the Lord. Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God. 
*Pilgrimage*
*Many faiths give pilgrimage extreme importance, in Hinduism it is vital to wash sins, Gurbani rejects it*
ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ਨ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰੈ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣੇ ਚਲਸਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
Ŧirath nā*ė na uṯras mail. Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ ha*umai fail. Lok pacẖārai gaṯ nahī ho*ė. Nām bihūṇė cẖalsahi ro*ė. ||2|| 
Bathing at shrines, the filth departs not. The rituals and religious rites are all the ostentations of self-conceit. Pleasing the people, one is emancipated not. Without the Lord's Name, the screen is shattered not. 
ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਤੀਰਥੁਪੂਰਾਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਜੋਅਨਦਿਨੁਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਏ॥ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ 

Mehlā 4. Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā*ė. Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā*ė. Jė agai ṯirath ho*ė ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā*ė. Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an*ḏin har har nām ḏẖi*ā*ė. Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si*o ḏė har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā*ė. Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā*ė. ||2|| 
Fourth Guru. He, within whom is the truth obtains the True Name and with his mouth utters the truth. He himself walks in God's way and puts others on God's path. If there be a pure water tank in front then the filth is washed off. By bathing in a pond, still more filth attaches to the man. The perfect place of pilgrimage is the True Guru who night and day meditates on the Name of Lord God. He is saved himself along with his family and by giving the Name of the Lord Master saves the whole world. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice unto him, who himself repeats God's Name and causes others to utter the Name. 
*Tantar Mantar*
*A part of Hinduism including other sectarian boxes, Sikhism considers it hypocrisy.*
ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੇ ਸੂਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ 
Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na jāṇā rām riḏai man māni*ā. Anjan nām ṯisai ṯė sūjẖai gur sabḏī sacẖ jāni*ā. ||4|| 
Enchantment, witchcraft and hypocrisy I know not, placing the Lord within my heart, my, my soul is pleased. The Name-salve is known from him alone, who by Guru's instruction realises the True Lord. 
*Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji states that there are seven basics of Hinduism*
*1 To accept Vedas as Truth*
*2. To keep faith and to accept  results of virtues and misdeeds are Heaven and Hell*
*3 Believing in incarnation and seek liberation*
*4 To believe Caste system as a base of the Hinduism*
*5 Burn the dead*
*6. Protect Cow*
*7 Have faith in purity and impurity ( as contagious*
*Now lets see Sikhism in this prospective*
  1.*The base of Sikhism is not Vedas, actually Vedas preach trade. For a Sikh only Gurbani is tr*ueਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥  ॥੨੪॥ 
Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.

*2**All believers have faith, it is not only part of Hinduism, there is no special definition in Sikhism about Heavan and Hell save for their references as suffering due to turning back towards the creator.*
*3**Incarnation is not only believed by Hindus but also by ancient Egyptians and others,  they were not known as Hindus because of it.so who believe in it, does not automatically become Hindu*
*4**Caste System has been rejected as described above*
*5**Well, it is not advocated by Sikhism, bodies of Guru Arjan Dev and Mata Ganga Ji were rested in water. *
*6**In Sikhism, Cow is not special pure animal as Hindus do.*
*7**In Sikhism, concept of purity is totally new, only through **Nam** Simran purity is obtained, in Hinduism there are many rituals to do purity.*
*Gurus themselves declare*
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
[/FONT]Bẖairo mehlā 5. 
[/FONT]Bhairo 5th Guru.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥ 
[/FONT]varaṯ na raha*o na mah ramḏānā. 
[/FONT]I practise not fasting, not observe I the month of Ramzan.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
[/FONT]Ŧis sėvī jo rakẖai niḏānā. ||1|| 
[/FONT]I serve Him alone, who will save me in the end.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]  Ėk gusā*ī alhu mėrā. 
[/FONT]The One Lord of the world is my God.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਹਿੰਦੂਤੁਰਕਦੁਹਾਂਨੇਬੇਰਾ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ 
[/FONT]Hinḏū ṯurak ḏuhāŉ nėbėrā. ||1|| rahā*o. 
[/FONT]He ministers justice to both the Hindus and Muslims. Pause.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ 
[/FONT]Haj kābai jā*o na ṯirath pūjā. 
[/FONT]I go not on pilgrimage to [/FONT]Mecca[/FONT], nor worship I at the holies.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥ 
[/FONT]Ėko sėvī avar na ḏūjā. ||2|| 
[/FONT]I serve only the one Lord and not any other.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥ 
[/FONT]Pūjā kara*o na nivāj gujāra*o. 
[/FONT]I perform not Hindu worship, nor offer I Muslim prayer.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥ 
[/FONT]Ėk nirankār lė riḏai namaskāra*o. ||3|| 
[/FONT]Taking the One Formless Lord into my mind, I make obeisance unto Him there.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਨਾਹਮਹਿੰਦੂਨਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ॥ 
[/FONT]Nā ham hinḏū na musalmān. 
[/FONT]I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਅਲਹਰਾਮਕੇਪਿੰਡੁਪਰਾਨ॥੪॥ 
[/FONT]Alah rām kė pind parān. ||4|| 
[/FONT]My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the Lord of Hindus.[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥ 
[/FONT]Kaho Kabīr ih kī*ā vakẖānā. 
[/FONT]Says Kabir, this wise utter I the truth,[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਏਕੁਗੁਸਾਈਅਲਹੁਮੇਰਾ॥ 
 [/FONT]  Ėk gusā*ī alhu mėrā. 
[/FONT]The One Lord of the world is my God.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਹਿੰਦੂਤੁਰਕਦੁਹਾਂਨੇਬੇਰਾ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ 
[/FONT]Hinḏū ṯurak ḏuhāŉ nėbėrā. ||1|| rahā*o. 
[/FONT]He ministers justice to both the Hindus and Muslims. Pause.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ 
[/FONT]Haj kābai jā*o na ṯirath pūjā. 
[/FONT]I go not on pilgrimage to [/FONT]Mecca[/FONT], nor worship I at the holies.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥ 
[/FONT]Ėko sėvī avar na ḏūjā. ||2|| 
[/FONT]I serve only the one Lord and not any other.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥ 
[/FONT]Pūjā kara*o na nivāj gujāra*o. 
[/FONT]I perform not Hindu worship, nor offer I Muslim prayer.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥ 
[/FONT]Ėk nirankār lė riḏai namaskāra*o. ||3|| 
[/FONT]Taking the One Formless Lord into my mind, I make obeisance unto Him there.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਨਾਹਮਹਿੰਦੂਨਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ॥   ( Note Bhai Gurdas varifies this belief of Guru ji as a fact Var-1)
[/FONT]Nā ham hinḏū na musalmān. 
[/FONT]I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਅਲਹਰਾਮਕੇਪਿੰਡੁਪਰਾਨ॥੪॥ 
[/FONT]Alah rām kė pind parān. ||4|| 
[/FONT]My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the Lord of Hindus.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥ 
[/FONT]Kaho Kabīr ih kī*ā vakẖānā. 
[/FONT]Says Kabir, this wise utter I the truth,[/FONT] 
[/FONT]    ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੫॥੩॥ 
Gur pīr mil kẖuḏ kẖasam pacẖẖānā. ||5||3|| 
that meeting with the Guru the Prophet, I have realised my Lord.
ਹਿੰਦੂਮੂਲੇਭੂਲੇਅਖੁਟੀਜਾਂਹੀ॥ 
Hinḏū mūlė bẖūlė akẖutī jāŉhī. 
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord and are going the wrong way.( *which wrong way? Answer is in the following Vaak)*ਨਾਰਦਿਕਹਿਆਸਿਪੂਜਕਰਾਂਹੀ॥ 
Nāraḏ kahi*ā se pūj karāŉhī. 
As Narad instructed so they worship the idols. 
ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
Anḏẖė gungė anḏẖ anḏẖār. 
They are blind, dumb and the blindest of the blind. 
ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥ 
Pāthar lė pūjeh mugaḏẖ gavār. 
The ignorant fools take stones and worship them. 
ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
Ohi jā āp dubė ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār. ||2|| 
Those stones when they themselves sink, how shall they ferry thee across?

*Guru Nanak has given concept of falling in love and being imbued with His love while living in this world without abiding any order of religious rules which literally are chains in progression. Stress is to win over five primal forces. Concept of Ordnance, His Grace and new concept of Mukti having while being alive differ from any sectarian ideology existed before Guru Nanak; calling Guru panth “off shoot of Hinduism” is a sheer misunderstanding of Gurbani in its totality. Looking at a few similarities and jumping on conclusion that it is not different than Hinduism, is either based on immaturity or under the influence of propagated agenda of those who just want to blend this religion into their own so that new wave of believers should not question their limitations of their faith in pursuit of humanity of  high level principles.*

*NOTE  Sikh 80 ji, Why do you need to be dismayed? Just because of reading comments of some who horribly failed to understand Gurbani in its totality. You [/FONT]* *have been advocating understanding Gurbani through the interpretation found in Guru granth sahib Ji itself. Why you feel dismayed? Aad0002 ji has given good reference how and from where all this Hindu thing” originated just to prove that before jumping on any conclusion, or criticizing others who have different faith than Sikhism, one should know what is base of all this. Surprisingly if you put Hinduism( as per Chief Justice' idea quoted by aad ji), to compare to other religions, it seems like a way of life rather than a religion, there are boxes  within boxes. How then Sikhism can be called " off shoot" of it? A lot of truth lies in the words of Chief Justice though to some his words may sound strange. In that prospective too, Sikhism stands all alone.
Same way, all who voilate Sikhs basic principles may call their own sect or cult, surely it cannot be Sikhism as per definition of  Sikhism as a religion.
* 
*Reference” Bhai Kahan Singh “ Ham Hindu Nahin “*


 [/FONT]


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2008)

Jios Sikh80 and pk70,

A little research turned up some interesting information about the origins and history of the term "Hindu." And most surprising to me was the fervor with which scholars of the so-called Hindu religion would prefer that the term be understood in its historical context. Their preference is that the many varieties of religious practice termed "Hindu" be instead named "sanatana dharma." Here is a summary of my research.


1.    The term “hindu" is not from the Sanskrit, and it is not found in the Vedic literature.

2.    Theories abound as to the origins of the word “hindu.”

3.    The Persian King Darius I referred to the inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent as "Hindus." Later Greek and Armenian conquerors adopted this term.  The word "Hindu" occurs allegedly for the first time in the ancient Avestan language of Persia to refer to the peoples who lived in the region of the Indus River, or Sapta Sindhu. 

4.     Alexander the Great renamed the River Sindhu as the Indus, to make it easier to pronounce in Greek.The river was thereafter known as the Indus River. The land east of the Indus (includes Punjab) became known as India. Muslim invaders from Afghanistan and Persia renamed the Sindhu River once again, calling it the Hindu River. Important to note that the sound of “S” in Sanskrit transliterates into “H” in P{censored}e the Persian language.The name, "Hindu," was used to describe all the conquered peoples who inhabited the lands in the northwestern provinces of India.  

5.    The people of India did not refer to themselves as “hindu” initially. Rather, the word was used to identify both the people and the religion of the people by their Muslim overlords. Eventually, the people of the Indus region conformed to this practice and did refer to themselves as "Hindus."
_
Suryanarayan (1952) writes “The political situation of our country from centuries past, say 20-25 centuries, has made it very difficult to understand the nature of this nation and its religion. The western scholars, and historians, too, have failed to trace the true name of this Brahmanland, a vast continent-like country, and therefore, they have contented themselves by calling it by that meaningless term ‘Hindu’. This word, which is a foreign innovation, is not made use by any of our Sanskrit writers and revered Acharyas in their works. It seems that political power was responsible for insisting upon continuous use of the word Hindu. The word Hindu is found, of course, in Persian literature. Hindu-e-falak means ‘the black of the sky’ and ‘Saturn’. In the Arabic language Hind not Hindu means nation. It is shameful and ridiculous to have read all along in history that the name Hindu was given by the Persians to the people of our country when they landed on the sacred soil of Sindhu.” (R. N. Suryanarayan in Universal Religions)_

6.    The name “Hindu” during the period of Muslim rule was used to humiliate the Indian subjects. “_The word means slave, and according to Islam, all those who did not embrace Islam were termed as slaves.” _(Maharishi Shri Dayanand Saraswati Aur Unka Kaam,  1898). _The term “Hindu” was also taken in Persian to mean “chore [thief], dakoo [dacoit], raahzan [waylayer], and ghulam [slave].” In another dictionary, Urdu-Feroze-ul-Laghat ,"  (Ibid, p. 615). The Persian meaning of the word Hindu is further described as barda (obedient servant), sia faam (balck color) and kaalaa (black)  __ (Ibid, p. 615). __._All intended to humiliate the people of India. The Muslim conquerors moreover did not distinquish among all the religious sects and beliefs of India during that time, merely referring to non-Muslims as Hindus.

7.    Eventually the British differentiated Muslims, Jains, Sikhs and Zoroastrians by assigning the term “Hindu” to any Brahmin who was an inhabitant of Hindustan.

8. Some argue that the ancient Indian scholars did use the word “hindu” to designate inhabitants of “Hindustan.” 

 Examples: 
_
Aaasindo Sindhu Paryantham Yasyabharatha Bhoomikah, MathruBhuh Pithrubhoochaiva sah Vai Hindurithismrithaah

Sapta sindhu muthal Sindhu maha samudhram vareyulla Bharatha bhoomi aarkkellamaano, Mathru bhoomiyum Pithru bhoomiyumayittullathu, avaraanu hindukkalaayi ariyappedunnathu. _ 

Both verses from the _Padma Purana_.  Both describing Hindustan as the land between the Sindhu and the Indian Ocean. Both use the words_ bhoomiha,_ and _bharatha bhoomi,_ which are properly translated to be Mother Earth or all of  India. All the inhabitants of _bharata _are Hindu according to the purana.

Other verses indicate that the region between the Himalayas and the Indian ocean is Hindustan.  And the modern understanding of Hindustan is equally vague: Hindustan a vaguely defined region, generally taken to include either the Gangetic Plain in northern India or all of northern India from the state of Assam (in the east) to that of Punjab (in the west), where Hindi, the official language of India, is spoken. Hindustan has also been applied at times to mean the entire Indian subcontinent and sometimes solely to the republic of India.

This definition is found also in the _Brihanmaradi Purana_ in the verse: _himalayam samarabhya yavat bindusarovaram, hindusthanamiti qyatam hi antaraksharayogatah
_ 
“The country lying between the Himalayan mountains and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as Hindusthan...."

From my quck investigation it seems that the word "Hindu" for many centuries was  a regional designation and referred to a region  and its people. It was not initially connected to religion. Many scholars prefer to use the Sanskrit term of sanatana-dharma because it is more descriptive of  “Hindusim” as a religious belief system. My apologies if I offend anyone, or if these words are commonly known information that need not be repeated.

My next quest is to try to understand what Guru Nanak meant when he himself used the term  ਹਿੰਦੂ "Hindu." As in pk70's ji's quoted shabad above: ਹਿੰਦੂਮੂਲੇਭੂਲੇਅਖੁਟੀਜਾਂਹੀ॥ Hinḏū mūlė bẖūlė akẖutī jāŉhī. The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord and are going the wrong way.


References

About The Name "Hindu"
APPENDIX 3 - MEANING OF THE WORD HINDU
Sanatana Dharma and Hinduism by Dr. R.K. Lahiri, Ph.D
Hinduism or Hindu dharma by Dr. Subhash C. Sharma


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## pk70 (Jul 18, 2008)

* aad0002 Ji,
Very good job to post it for other viewers to see it. I read Surya Narayen's remarks before too. It just proves that the invaders renamed " sanatna Dharm" as Hinduism as most of the believers accept it as compliment than an insult. Guru Nanak addresses almost all prevailed sects, cults and faiths; his views came in context of Brahamnism, the diety worshipers and believers of Caste System. Under that kind of practice, many other sects were mashrooming  for a long time. Guru strongly exposed the hypocratic approach of Brahamans and other sects prevailed under the same shade to exploit gerneral public That was the main reason, fanatic Hindu Daya Nand got angry and said very derogatory words against Guru Nanak.
Trying to call Guru Nanak's panth an off shoot of Hinduism is an obvious effort to blend it in Hinduism or its sects to reduce its significance in progression of humanity. Almost over hundred years ago Bhai Kahn Singh protested this forceful renaming of Sikhism in a small book called " Ham Hindu Nahin", even today we face the same false propaganda. Thanks.*


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2008)

pk70 ji

This is good background knowledge -- so I appreciate it. Next is to take a look at the 23 examples where Guru Nanak uses the word "hindu."


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## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2008)

Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev, and Bhagats Kabir and Nam Dev have all uttered the word Hindu in the shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Nanak indicates he is neither Hindu nor Muslim.  ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥ naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan || I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

Guruji's words at first glance seem to contradict the historical record that reports that the inhabitants of those regions of India, conquered by the Persians, Moghuls and Turks, never referred to themselves as *Hindus* until a much later point in time. Some time later they adapted to the label of Hindu even though the term Hindu was used to humiliate the people of India and remind them of their slave-like status.

Using searchgurbani.com I found a number of instances where  ਹਿੰਦੂ _hindhoo _appears. I eliminated all the verses where the translator added the word _hindhoo_ when in fact the word was not in the original Gurbani, and the translator had done this only to clarify another word, such as _pooja,_ to mean Hindu ritual. 

Below are examples where it appears that Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev, Sant Kabir and Sant Nam Dev, as indicated by the scholars of _sanatana dharma,_ use the geographical or regional meaning of the word “Hindu” and are not using it in the religious sense. My inference is based on this. In each verse, Muslims are referred to in some grammatical form of _thurak,_ Turks. In other words, by their land of origin. It is more likely than not that _hindhoo _is being used in the same way – in terms of homeland (living near the Hindu River) rather than religious belief.

Ang  237 Line 12  Raag Gaurhee: Guru Arjan Dev

ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||
Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;

Ang  340 Line 7  Raag Gaurhee Poorbee: Saint Kabir

ਤੁਰਕ ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
thurak thareekath jaaneeai hindhoo baedh puraan ||
The Muslim knows the Muslim way of life; the Hindu knows the Vedas and Puraanas.


Ang  477 Line 14  Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
hindhoo thurak kehaa thae aaeae kin eaeh raah chalaaee ||
Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?


Ang  479 Line 3  Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥
hindhoo thurak dhooo samajhaavo ||4||4||13||
I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ||4||4||13||

Ang  483 Line 8  Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
hindhoo thurak dhuhoon mehi eaekai kehai kabeer pukaaree ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||

Ang  654 Line 5  Raag Sorith: Saint Kabir

ਬੁਤ ਪੂਜਿ ਪੂਜਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਏ ਤੁਰਕ ਮੂਏ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਈ ॥
buth pooj pooj hindhoo mooeae thurak mooeae sir naaee ||
Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads.

Ang  875 Line 2  Raag Bilaaval Gond: Saint Nam Dev

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥
hindhoo annhaa thurakoo kaanaa ||
The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.


Ang  885 Line 10  Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
koee kehai thurak koee kehai hindhoo ||
Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.

Ang  1136 Line 10  Raag Bhaira-o: Guru Arjan Dev

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
hindhoo thurak dhuhaan naebaeraa ||1|| rehaao ||
He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

Ang  1158 Line 10  Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Kabir

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕ ॥
hindhoo thurak kaa saahib eaek ||
Hindus and Muslims have the same One Lord and Master.


There are other verses where a religious affiliation seems to be the more likely meaning of both Hindu and Muslim. Again the inference, Muslims are called _mussalaman_ – an older and  generic term for Muslim – and the word means “one who submits to God.” In other words Muslims have been described in terms of religious belief or practice. So why not also Hindus in these verses?


Ang  875 Line 3  Raag Bilaaval Gond: Saint Nam Dev

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥
hindhoo poojai dhaehuraa musalamaan maseeth ||
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.


Ang  952 Line 4  Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

ਹੋਰੁ ਫਕੜੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੈ ॥
hor fakarr hindhoo musalamaanai ||
Others, whether Hindu or Muslim, are just babbling.


Ang  1136 Line 11  Raag Bhaira-o: Guru Arjan Dev

ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan ||
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.


This leaves several verses where a more spiritual meaning is hinted for “Hindu.” It would be interesting to look at these very closely in the context of the entire shabad to understand Guruji’s meaning of _hindhoo_ in these verses.

Ang  465 Line 18  Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
hindhoo saalaahee saalaahan dharasan roop apaar ||
The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.


Ang  477 Line 18  Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||


Ang  556 Line 9  Raag Bihaagrhaa: Guru Nanak Dev

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaanhee ||
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.


Ang  951 Line 16  Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

ਐਸਾ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
aisaa hindhoo vaekhahu koe ||
Behold, such is the Hindu.

Ang  951 Line 18  Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਆਵੈ ॥
hindhoo kai ghar hindhoo aavai ||
The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu.

Ang  1160 Line 4  Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Kabir

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥
hindhoo raam naam oucharai ||
The Hindu utters the Name of Raam.

Ang  1165 Line 19  Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Nam Dev

ਇਨਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਲਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੯॥
ein hindhoo maeraa maliaa maan ||9||
but this Hindu has trampled my honor.""||9||

Ang  1166 Line 8  Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Nam Dev

ਬਖਸੀ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੈ ਤੇਰੀ ਗਾਇ ॥੨੨॥
bakhasee hindhoo mai thaeree gaae ||22||
"Forgive me, please, O Hindu; I am just a cow before you."||22||

Ang  1166 Line 10  Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Nam Dev

ਮਿਲਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਭ ਨਾਮੇ ਪਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨੫॥
mil hindhoo sabh naamae pehi jaahi ||25||
The Hindus all went together to Naam Dayv. ||25||

It is possible that _hindhoo_ has 3 different contexts of use in Gurbani, and therefore 3 different meanings.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

*Respected Pk70 ji,*

Point wise*Answer to your post 

I am trying to answer you point wise without raising any question on Sikhism. I have the view that in Sikhism basics are not clear to many Learned Sikhs. How can an ordinary person with ordinary intellect be a sikh in true sense of word.? I understand your concern for the young Sikhs but then we have everything that he blesses us with. Kindly go through the following with open mind. I shall take up the answers and replies once this is suitably absorbed and any points of differences are pointed out for amicable resolution. *

*Only, Amrit ceremony introduced by Guru Gobind Singh to turn victims into self defenders, alone stands tall against their imaginative claims; however, there are other basics concepts which are extremely different the way are described by Sikh founder like His Ordinance, His Grace and Mukti. *


*Amrit Ceremony
Amrit ceremony is a ritual particular to a faith hence I have no comments on this as I do not want to hurt any one and that cannot be the intention of the author of the post.

 As a first post my reactions are very mild to all the points that you have raised. Needless to mention sikhi can be challenged on the very basis of the standard Ardas. I shall do it after seeing the progress of the thread.*
*
Essential ingredients*

*In any religion, worth the name, all these are the essential ingredients, His order or the divine order and the His grace and the liberation. Each and every religion leads to Mukti and should do so to enable it to be called as Mukti or liberation. The religion that does not tell us clearly as to how to reach HIM is not a religion at all.There is nothing new in that you have stated above. *

*Vedas and Staus as per Bani

* *The Vedas are stated to be the words of God. Bani admits it at more than one place and in fact, entire Granth sahib is spilled over by these references. Bani  has also stated that Vedas were the words uttered by The intangible entity called as God or ‘waheguru’ by whatever name called.*

*The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.[p2L8]*

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥


*By listening to Naam one gets the benefit of the knowledge of Shastras and Vedas.Thus by Listening to Naam [ which is not known to a sikh] one gets the reward of the entire wisdom contained in Vedasa. With due regards and respect to the Gurus, I do not disagree with this .But Naam is a vehicle that leads to the holy knowledge and the divinity contained in Vedas.
* 

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਵੇਦ ॥

*Guru nanak has time and again claimed that all including Vedas sing of you, the Creator!! So where is the big difference. The Supreme entity has been the same and is the same as has been proclaimed in Vedas that was the origin of the organized format of the divinity.*
*
In so dar- Raag Aasaa , Guru Nanak dev ji admits that all sing your praises. Hindus sing through Vedas and Sikhs do praises through Nitnem and simran.The methodology or remembering HIM is different. This difference is bound to be there on account of time and the practices adopted and followed over different period of times. It does not mean at all that Sikhs have discarded these Hly and the most ancient Books or the scriptures. At no place Gurus have stated against the Vedas that is stated to be the store house of knowledge including Naam and its significance.*

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
 One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥
Where is That Door of Yours, and where is That Home, in which You sit and take care of all?
ਵਾਜੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
 The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there for You, and countless musicians play all sorts of instruments there for You.
ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
 There are so many Ragas and musical harmonies to You; so many minstrels sing hymns of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ ॥
 Wind, water and fire sing of You. The Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
 Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
 Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned by You, sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
 Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਾਧ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
 The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing of You; the Saadhus sing of You in contemplation.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ ॥
 The celibates, the fanatics, and the peacefully accepting sing of You; the fearless warriors sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸੁਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥
 The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in paradise, in this world, and in the underworld of the subconscious, sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
 The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ ॥
 The brave and mighty warriors sing of You. The spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing of You.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਧਾਰੇ ॥
 The worlds, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing of You.
ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ ॥
 They alone sing of You, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with Your Sublime Essence.
ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
 So many others sing of You, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I think of them all?
ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
 That True Lord is True, forever True, and True is His Name.
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ ॥
 He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.
ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥
 He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.
ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
 Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ ॥
 He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him.
ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
 He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||1||

*   Yes, the Almighty is one and is supremus has been also stated so in Vedas as well as is also admitted in bani. In Sri-Rag Guru Nanak ji states as follows. He states that everything stated in his philosophy in the following ‘sabad’is also proclaimed in Vedas. Hence Sikhism is all but an adopted faith from Vedas and Upnishdas and rest is decorative part and minor adjustments.

* ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਦੇਹ ਸਰੀਰੁ ॥
Through the Guru, the Pure One is known, and the human body becomes pure as well.
ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਚੋ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਭ ਪੀਰ ॥
 The Pure, True Lord abides within the mind; He knows the pain of our hearts.
ਸਹਜੈ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਨਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਜਮ ਤੀਰੁ ॥੧॥
 With intuitive ease, a great peace is found, and the arrow of death shall not strike you. ||1||
ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ ਨਾਇ ॥
 O Siblings of Destiny, filth is washed away by bathing in the Pure Water of the Name.
ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਏਕੁ ਤੂ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੈਲੁ ਭਰੀ ਸਭ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
 You alone are Perfectly Pure, O True Lord; all other places are filled with filth. ||1||Pause||
ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰਿ ॥
 The Temple of the Lord is beautiful; it was made by the Creator Lord.
ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਦੀਪ ਅਨੂਪ ਜੋਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
 The sun and the moon are lamps of incomparably beautiful light. Throughout the three worlds, the Infinite Light is pervading.
ਹਾਟ ਪਟਣ ਗੜ ਕੋਠੜੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਵਾਪਾਰ ॥੨॥
 In the shops of the city of the body, in the fortresses and in the huts, the True Merchandise is traded. ||2||
ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨਾ ਦੇਖੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਭਾਇ ॥
 The ointment of spiritual wisdom is the destroyer of fear; through love, the Pure One is seen.
ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੁ ਸਭ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜੇ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਠਾਇ ॥
The mysteries of the seen and the unseen are all known, if the mind is kept centered and balanced.
ਐਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੩॥
 If one finds such a True Guru, the Lord is met with intuitive ease. ||3||
ਕਸਿ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਈਐ ਪਰਖੇ ਹਿਤੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥
 He draws us to His Touchstone, to test our love and consciousness.
ਖੋਟੇ ਠਉਰ ਨ ਪਾਇਨੀ ਖਰੇ ਖਜਾਨੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
 The counterfeit have no place there, but the genuine are placed in His Treasury.
ਆਸ ਅੰਦੇਸਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਇਉ ਮਲੁ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥
 Let your hopes and anxieties depart; thus pollution is washed away. ||4||
ਸੁਖ ਕਉ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਗੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
 Everyone begs for happiness; no one asks for suffering.
ਸੁਖੈ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲਾ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
 But in the wake of happiness, there comes great suffering. The self-willed manmukhs do not understand this.
ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥
 Those who see pain and pleasure as one and the same find peace; they are pierced through by the Shabad. ||5||


ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਵਾਚੀਐ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਆਸੁ ॥
 The Vedas proclaim, and the words of Vyaasa tell us,
ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਾਧਿਕਾ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ ॥
that the silent sages, the servants of the Lord, and those who practice a life of spiritual discipline are attuned to the Naam, the Treasure of Excellence.

ਸਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਜਿਣਿ ਗਏ ਹਉ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਸੁ ॥੬॥
 Those who are attuned to the True Name win the game of life; I am forever a sacrifice to them. ||6||
ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮੈਲੇ ਮਲੁ ਭਰੇ ਜਿਨ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
 Those who do not have the Naam in their mouths are filled with pollution; they are filthy throughout the four ages.
ਭਗਤੀ ਭਾਇ ਵਿਹੂਣਿਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਕਾਲਾ ਪਤਿ ਖੋਇ ॥
 Without loving devotion to God, their faces are blackened, and their honor is lost.
ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੁਠੀ ਰੋਇ ॥੭॥
 Those who have forgotten the Naam are plundered by evil; they weep and wail in dismay. ||7||
ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਪਾਇਆ ਡਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
I searched and searched, and found God. In the Fear of God, I have been united in His Union.
ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਘਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
 Through self-realization, people dwell within the home of their inner being; egotism and desire depart.
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਊਜਲੇ ਜੋ ਰਾਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥੮॥੭॥
 O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Name of the Lord are immaculate and radiant. ||8||7

*Philosophy Of Vedas apprecuated in bani

**Admittedly the entire philosophy is contained in Vedas. Bani has not rejected it. It has reinforced that the route to the Lord is through the Naam. What is the Naam? Sikhs have their doubts. Vedas are clear about this. If Bani is the word of God for Sikhs the Vedas are the word of God for almost all. It is admitted so in bani. If further indulgence is required I shall do that for the benefit of the discussion. 
* 

*To understand Sikhism, one has to look at the message of Guru Granth Sahib in totality. During guerrilla War, academic field was taken over by either disguised Hindus or the ones who had pretty much nostalgia of Hinduism. A lot of stuff is found in Rehatnamas written under the names of well known Sikhs which certainly is not part of Sikhi. Those cannot be verified with any Guru Bachan. Sohan Singh Seetal compiled a book” Sikh Sahit de some”( Sources of Sikh Literature) in which laughable contents are found that go totally against Historical facts.*


*   I am not stating that Sikhism is subject to be laughed at. In fact, this discussion would become baseless if I do so and vice versa.*

*The society where Guru Nanak grew up in, had major two faiths, Islam and Hinduism though there were other sectarian ideology like Yog matt, Janism etc. Guru Nanak as enlightened one, had to address them in their own language and terminology to lead the seekers to the Ultimate Truth. Who were scared of this new religion of Guru Nanak, used same terminology as a base to blend this new religion.. Vashanavites and Hindus were those who declared that those terms were already in Vedas etc so Sikhs Gurus are aligned with those, therefore it is a kind of Hinduism and Vashanavism . Surprisingly all these terms are given new meaning in SGGS stressing only on His Nam and love for Him obtainable only through Guru but still it depends on His grace.*

*Essentials of any Religions*
*
  All religions state that HIS grace is a must. This is something implied. Sikhs admit it in explicit manner. His Naam and Grace are also the essence of the Hinduism that I am talking of. I shall put forward the same as and when required. As some of you may not feel very comfortable ab inito, I postpone it for the time being.*

*This needs a thorough thesis to negate claims based on some similarities as they are there in every faith, however, lets take some examples from Guru Granth Sahib against Hinduism.*


*Caste.System: In Hinduism, it is a base, in Balmiki Ramayin( Uttar Kand A 76)Ram Chandra is shown killing a person belonging to low class just because he was doing bhagati, on his beheading, Devtas shower flowers. That is the bottom line, if the revered Devta Ram Chand does such heinous crime for Caste System, imagine how much it is deep into the psyche of the followers, contrary to it, Sikh Guru makes his followers to drink from one pot. Strong rejectio*n of Caste System , more ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ॥ ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥ 
Salok mehlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā*o. Sabẖnā jī*ā ikā cẖẖā*o. Āphu jė ko bẖalā kahā*ė. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lėkẖai pā*ė. ||1|| 
Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak! 


*   I have not deleted this on account of the fact that your understanding is different from that we have about Ram Chandra. Ram Chandra , a s a generic name tells, was Incarnation of God and bani admits this as well. In fact one of the favorite name of the God is Ram in bani. Kindly do not distort the things for the sake of discussion. Bani of Bhagats contain many reference of Ram. Also state that you are sure of. Your reference, allusion and hence the conclusions are simply lop-sided and heavily tilted to win over the discussion and to mislead the readers. What is caste system.??? Interpreters usually endeavor to hit upon something novel. But truth is, of course, truth. It is neither ever new, nor does it ever grow old. Fresh issues that find a place in newspaper columns are but temporal events that emerge one day and disappear on the next. It is that has happened with caste system. Caste system was there for reasons when it had its origin and when it came into being. It was based on the concept of economics that is division of labor. Gurus had not liked caste system and had discarded it for reasons and there is not much space for discussion. We take policy decisions over a period of time these decisions are not found worthy of being good to the society and at one point or another these gets diluted with passage of time and new decisions have to be taken after having a re look at the situations and the social disparities. 

  Do you not agree that with passage of just 400 years castes have not appeared in /amongst Sikhs? Surely, these have and even the basis of marriages are based on castes. I shall not be in this discussion for the time being. Do you then mean that at some point Sikhism shall also have to be discarded? No, it is not the basic sikh philosophy, if any, that shall have to be discarded but SGPC should do the needful to keep Sikhism intact. So whatever, the Gurus saw they tried to rectify it only so that the social order is/was not disturbed. That being so the basic edifice was never challenged. Yes, some flaws were pointed out for carrying out the improvement.


   In fact , Bani addresses Ram as God.* 

ਰਘੁਬੰਸਿ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਦਸਰਥ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਬੰਛਹਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੰ ॥ 
He is certified, like the handsome Ram Chander in the house of Dasrath of the Raghwa dynasty. Even the silent sages seek His Sanctuary.
  [page1401/l19]

_*   Who is Certified?kindly look into this yourself and you shall get the answer.*_
*
2AVTAR. In Hinduism, God incarnates individually, Gurbani rejects it by calling them kings who were called as God incarnation*
ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥ 
Jugah jugah kė rājė kī*ė gāvahi kar avṯārī. Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā*i*ā ṯā kā ki*ā kar ākẖ vīcẖārī. ||7|| 
In every age the Lord creates the Kings who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits. What shall I then say and reflect upon? 
ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ॥੩॥ 
Ḏas a*uṯār rājė ho*ė varṯė mahāḏėv a*uḏẖūṯā. Ŧinĥ bẖī anṯ na pā*i*o ṯėrā lā*ė thakė bibẖūṯā. ||3|| 
There have been ten incarnations, Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes. 
*When outright, importance of these so called Gods, in pursuit of the Creator, is rejected, there should be no doubt, Sikh path has an originality. For Sikhs He manifests in His creation but does not incarnate, illusionary approach has no boundaries though, so they keep beating their drums loudly, but facts are there against their imaginative conclusions*
Devta/Devi
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਸਭਿ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ ॥੨॥ 
Mā*i*ā mohė ḏėvī sabẖ ḏėvā. Kāl na cẖẖodai bin gur kī sėvā. Oh abẖināsī alakẖ abẖėvā. ||2|| 
Mammon has deluded all gods and goddesses. Death spares none without Guru's service. That Lord is Imperishable, Unseen, and Inscrutable. 
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ 
Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o ṯarai guṇ rogī vicẖ ha*umai kār kamā*ī. Jin kī*ė ṯiseh na cẖīṯeh bapuṛė har gurmukẖ sojẖī pā*ī. ||2|| 
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are afflicted with the ailment of three dispositions. They act in the spirit of I-am-ness. The poor ones remember not Him, who created them. The Lord's understanding is obtained, through the Guru. 

*Avtaars and bani

Avtaars are the incarnations of God. Sikhism rejects the idea of it. Unquote

Dear Sir, Sikhism admit its Gurus as Avtaars. 

Need I give the tuks and Lines of Bhatts.? I do not want to do this at all. 
In fact majority of fanatics in Sikhs believe that Guru nanak was the creator Himself. Kindly refer page 1401. Gurus admittedly stated so and many Sikhs also state and believe it like this and on very this forum.*


*Fast*
*Fasts are considered pious in Hinduism, Sikhism rejects them outright*.
ਅੰਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਥੀਜੈ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੀਜੈ ॥੬॥ 
Ann na kẖāhi ḏėhī ḏukẖ ḏījai. Bin gur gi*ān ṯaripaṯ nahī thījai. Manmukẖ janmai janam marījai. ||6|| 
Some one takes, not food, and tortures his body. Without the Guru's wisdom he becomes not content. Such a perverse person is born only to die and be born again. 


*   Fasts are the practices that are performed for physical cleaning and many Sikhs do practice it if not as a religious practice but to keep them physically fit. In any case it is  faith only and not a matter of religion. Even if it is practiced by some it does not change the basic philosophy underlying the Hinduism. 
Will I become a Hindu if I keep fast as a vow to improve upon some of my unwanted habits?* 

*Tithi Vaar ( good or bad omen)*
*Hindus are grounded in initial pleasing of the demi gods they believe in before starting anything, according to Gurbani all these are chains of imaginative fears, Sikhs are advised to just thank HIM, do prayer to Him, that is it.*
ਸਗੁਨ ਅਪਸਗੁਨ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਹਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
Sagun apasgun ṯis ka*o lageh jis cẖīṯ na āvai. Ŧis jam nėṛ na āvī jo har parabẖ bẖāvai. ||2|| 
Good omens and bad omens befall him who remembers not the Lord. Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God. 



*   Yes, it is true for Sikhs as well. What is the meaning of this line that you have quoted? It is irrelevant as death strikes all and does not know or discriminates between the Sikhs or Hindus.All die the same death. 

* Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God. 




*Pilgrimage*
*Many faiths give pilgrimage extreme importance, in Hinduism it is vital to wash sins, Gurbani rejects it*
ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ਨ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰੈ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣੇ ਚਲਸਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
Ŧirath nā*ė na uṯras mail. Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ ha*umai fail. Lok pacẖārai gaṯ nahī ho*ė. Nām bihūṇė cẖalsahi ro*ė. ||2|| 
Bathing at shrines, the filth departs not. The rituals and religious rites are all the ostentations of self-conceit. Pleasing the people, one is emancipated not. Without the Lord's Name, the screen is shattered not. 
ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਤੀਰਥੁਪੂਰਾਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਜੋਅਨਦਿਨੁਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਏ॥ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ 

Mehlā 4. Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā*ė. Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā*ė. Jė agai ṯirath ho*ė ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā*ė. Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an*ḏin har har nām ḏẖi*ā*ė. Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si*o ḏė har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā*ė. Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā*ė. ||2|| 
Fourth Guru. He, within whom is the truth obtains the True Name and with his mouth utters the truth. He himself walks in God's way and puts others on God's path. If there be a pure water tank in front then the filth is washed off. By bathing in a pond, still more filth attaches to the man. The perfect place of pilgrimage is the True Guru who night and day meditates on the Name of Lord God. He is saved himself along with his family and by giving the Name of the Lord Master saves the whole world. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice unto him, who himself repeats God's Name and causes others to utter the Name. 


*   Hindus do believe in Naam as has been proclaimed by Vedas and admitted by bani.The following is quoted from introduction to geeta.


“The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]

  When a man is surrounded by the ocean on all sides, he has no use for a pond. Just so a Brahmin who has gained knowledge of the Supreme Spirit has no use for the Ved. That means that the one who knows God transcends HE knows all that is to be known.”
* 
*Tantar Mantar*
*A part of Hinduism including other sectarian boxes, Sikhism considers it hypocrisy.*
ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੇ ਸੂਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ 
Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na jāṇā rām riḏai man māni*ā. Anjan nām ṯisai ṯė sūjẖai gur sabḏī sacẖ jāni*ā. ||4|| 
Enchantment, witchcraft and hypocrisy I know not, placing the Lord within my heart, my, my soul is pleased. The Name-salve is known from him alone, who by Guru's instruction realises the True Lord. 
*Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji states that there are seven basics of Hinduism*
*1 To accept Vedas as Truth*
*2. To keep faith and to accept results of virtues and misdeeds are Heaven and Hell*
*3 Believing in incarnation and seek liberation*
*4 To believe Caste system as a base of the Hinduism*
*5 Burn the dead*
*6. Protect Cow*
*7 Have faith in purity and impurity ( as contagious*
*Now lets see Sikhism in this prospective*



  1.*The base of Sikhism is not Vedas, actually Vedas preach trade. For a Sikh only Gurbani is tr*ueਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥ ॥੨੪॥ 
Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.


*   Yes, Hindus also believe that without Lord everything is False.*


 *“The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta][/FONT]

  When a man is surrounded by the ocean on all sides, he has no use for a pond. Just so a Brahmin who has gained knowledge of the Supreme Spirit has no use for the Ved. That means that the one who knows God transcends HE knows all that is to be known.”* 

*What is tri badh: Sikhism

It is not clear as per sikh philosophy it is same as is explained in Vedas. Sikhs even do not know what and how exactly Maya is created.
*
*2All believers have faith, it is not only part of Hinduism, there is no special definition in Sikhism about Heavan and Hell save for their references as suffering due to turning back towards the creator.*

*Heaven and Hell*
*
It is immaterial. What matters is what we do in the present life. In any case Hindus believe in theory of karma and Sikhs do the same. As you sow so shall you reap. It is the basic edifice of Sikhism and is the backbone of Hinduism so that people practice the righteousness and this is also acclaimed in sikhi.Sikhism also does not reject the idea of heaven and hell. Bani admits the existence of the same , may be in realms. But it is a borrowed concept.*

*3Incarnation is not only believed by Hindus but also by ancient Egyptians and others, they were not known as Hindus because of it.so who believe in it, does not automatically become Hindu.*

*   Sikhs belive in Avtaars as well.i need not quote from bani.*

*4Caste System has been rejected as described above*
It was introduced to maintain social order only.Sikhs also believe in caste system.it has been detailed out as above. You are requested to kindly not repeat the things time and again in the same post.

*5Well, it is not advocated by Sikhism, bodies of Guru Arjan Dev and Mata Ganga Ji were rested in water. *

*   What is the relevance of this point.? Kindly illumine.*


*6In Sikhism, Cow is not special pure animal as Hindus do.*


*   Let it not be so in Sikhism.

Sikhs have many other rituals which Hindus do not have.In any case these are not significant points relevant to discussion.*

*7In Sikhism, concept of purity is totally new, only through Nam Simran purity is obtained, in Hinduism there are many rituals to do purity.*
*Gurus themselves declare*

*[ I am not quoting the sabad as it was not properly presented**]*

*
  Hinduism has almost the same concept of Holiness. Purity of mind is as impressed upon more significantly in Hinduism as well.*


[*Guru Nanak has given concept of falling in love and being imbued with His love while living in this world without abiding any order of religious rules which literally are chains in progression. Stress is to win over five primal forces. Concept of Ordnance, His Grace and new concept of Mukti having while being alive differ from any sectarian ideology existed before Guru Nanak; calling Guru panth “off shoot of Hinduism” is a sheer misunderstanding of Gurbani in its totality. Looking at a few similarities and jumping on conclusion that it is not different than Hinduism, is either based on immaturity or under the influence of propagated agenda of those who just want to blend this religion into their own so that new wave of believers should not question their limitations of their faith in pursuit of humanity of high level principles.*

*NOTE Sikh 80 ji, Why do you need to be dismayed? Just because of reading comments of some who horribly failed to understand Gurbani in its totality. You have been advocating understanding Gurbani through the interpretation found in Guru Granth sahib Ji itself. Why you feel dismayed? Aad0002 ji has given good reference how and from where all this Hindu thing” originated just to prove that before jumping on any conclusion, or criticizing others who have different faith than Sikhism, one should know what is base of all this. Surprisingly if you put Hinduism( as per Chief Justice' idea quoted by aad ji), to compare to other religions, it seems like a way of life rather than a religion, there are boxes within boxes. How then Sikhism can be called " off shoot" of it? A lot of truth lies in the words of Chief Justice though to some his words may sound strange. In that prospective too, Sikhism stands all alone.
Same way, all who voilate Sikhs basic principles may call their own sect or cult, surely it cannot be Sikhism as per definition of Sikhism as a religion.
*
*Reference” Bhai Kahan Singh “ Ham Hindu Nahin “-

[Right Reply reserved by me as I have not read the said book.]*



*
I am just quoting two lines:

As the time passes his aims and means of life are changed. We have to shift the focus of life once again towards immaterialist way of life. For that following two lines in ISHA UPNISHDA are sufficient.

It means, “All this, whatsoever moves on earth, is to be hidden in the
Lord (the Self). When thou hast surrendered all this, then thou mayest enjoy.
Do not covet the wealth of any man!”*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

*pk70 ji,

I note that many parts need editing. I cannot do this as my browser is not opening the above post.Kindly proceed ignoring the English and the presentation. You may also make your posts small and to the point.

In any case, please avoid 'repeats.' Kindly try to see that your posts contain Gurmukhi properly. You would observe that I had to do this in your posts.it is better to post small in bits so that we can discuss without any grief or anguish.


Regards as usual.
*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> I eliminated all the verses where the translator added the word _hindhoo_ when in fact the word was not in the original Gurbani, and the translator had done this only to clarify another word, such as _pooja,_ to mean Hindu ritual.


*

Yes, pooja means worship or service to Lord as we sikhs understand. 

You would understand the things if you put something from bani  as you are incapicitated on account of lack of appreciation of Punjabi and Hindi or Urdu for that matter.[No offence meant and my apologies] 

 What is wrong with Pooja? 

It is same as we mean service to Lord.
It can be by recitation of Keertan /Aarti.[as any Hindu would say or state] 
It is same as sikhs.
When I am doing Nitnem or Paath I shall say that I am doing 'Paath' instead of saying that I am doing pooja.it is only semantically different.

The essence is the same.* 

* If Pooja is a ritual, Nitnem and simran shall also qualify for the same with minor adjustments here and there.

Kindly post if you are sure else it shall become very difficult for me to attend and you may feel ignored.
* 
*Regards*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 18, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Respected Pk70 ji,*
> 
> 
> *Amrit ceremony is a ritual particular to a faith hence I have no comments on this as I do not want to hurt any one and that cannot be the intention. As a first post my reactions are very mild to all the points that you have raised. Needless to mention sikhi can be challenged on the very basis of the standard Ardas. I shall do it after seeing the progress of the thread.*
> ...




*Quoted from the above post as I could not carry out the editing.

Guru's word...or bani...Or ...Bani Nirankaar hey.....is all but Vedas then where is the difference in Sikhism.
*
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
* Bani is Nirankaar and I take that above 'tuk' is also word of God as it cannot be otherwise.

And 


 God's word [bani]Leads one to acquire the knowledge of vedas. 


The knowedge of Vedas has been kept supreme by Guru Nanak. 

Regards

Note  :
This is not meant to hurt anyone. If someone feels uncomfortable, it may kindly be known and I shall stop and halt without adding a word. The idea is to find out as to what is the essential difference between the two faiths and may be in the process we may conceptualize sikhism in manner that may be fruitful to all of us. I am not likely to become a Hindu, yes, I have postponed being an Amritdhari for the time being.

*


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *
> 
> Yes, pooja means worship or service to Lord as we sikhs understand.
> 
> ...



Sikh80 ji

You are angry about something and striking out in a most personal way and that is unfortunate. It should be very clear from my comments on "pooja" that they were incidental to the big picture.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Respected aad ji,

I sincerely feel sorry if I seemed  the way you have stated. Kindly let the words that are the culprits be taken as withdrawn as I do not know exactly that has caused anguish. My apologies again. I am a sikh and hence Pooja is just the same as Paath to me. 

I Seek your forgiveness again.*


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## pk70 (Jul 19, 2008)

*I am trying to answer you point wise without raising any question on Sikhism. I have the view that in Sikhism basics are not clear to many Learned Sikhs. How can an ordinary person with ordinary intellect be a Sikh in true sense of word.? I understand your concern for the young Sikhs but then we have everything that he blesses us with. Kindly go through the following with open mind. I shall take up the answers and replies once this is suitable absorbed and any points of differences are pointed out for amicable resolution. [/FONT]*

*Only, Amrit ceremony introduced by Guru Gobind Singh to turn victims into self defenders, alone stands tall against their imaginative claims; however, there are other basics concepts which are extremely different the way are described by Sikh founder like His Ordinance, His Grace and Mukti. *


*Amrit ceremony is a ritual particular to a faith hence I have no comments on this as I do not want to hurt any one and that cannot be the intention[/FONT]*
* Sikh 80 Ji,[/FONT]*
*How you can pass by this a revolutionary change in History? This very change is progression in Sikhism alone changed the course of History for ever. Either take it as a part of Sikhism or just dump it move the way your mind directs you because I have problem to discuss with an attitude of cut some and keep some.[/FONT]*
*How it has been taken by to days Sikhs is not the issue when we discuss the original. What you take it from this ceremony, it is your observation, no body can stop that, if they mind, it is their limited space they live in; however, you cannot ignore it as a ritual at all. So bear in mind, this alone characteristic is not found in any existed sect or faith exactly at the time of Tenth Master.[/FONT]*

*. As a first post my reactions are very mild to all the points that you have raised. Needless to mention sikhi can be challenged on the very basis of the standard Ardas. I shall do it after seeig the progress of the thread.[/FONT]*
*Ardas is not defined in Guru Granth Sahib, so taking it like Kala afgana ‘s bait and try to trample the whole faith doesn’t prove your intentions is to know  further about Sikhism. I do ardas differently, there is no Hukm from Tenth Master that ardaas should be like this; you can pray as you wish but what is wrong with remembering those who lost their lives for conviction?[/FONT]*
*You have the right to say that you just do not believe in any thing said in Sikhism, does it prove it any thing. So either stay learner or become critic, two way games not appreciable. Since I feel your questions are not of a learner but a critic who is bent upon proving two different religions as one.[/FONT]*
*In any religion, worth the name, all these are the essential ingredients, His order or the divine order and the His grace and the liberation. Each and every religion leads to Mukti and should do so to enable it to be called as Mukti or liberation. The religion that does not tell us clearly as to how to reach HIM is not a religion at all.There is nothing new in that you have stated above.[/FONT]*
*Wow, I didn’t feel ever like this, since I took it to mind, I have no problem, after posting thousands of essays or kathas, suddenly your this declaration has surprised me. What is not clear? How to reach to HIM? Systematically Gurbani takes you to walk on the path with sincerity. By merely defining words used in Gurbani is not walking on it. Gurbani in Mool Mantra explicitly explains, which you understood, who is He with little reservation, Guru ji continues describing how even after trying, He remains inexpressible. Guru makes me understand about HIM  the creator of all( Japji) What more clarity do you need. Then an effort is done many times to explain His Hukam( Japji), How to be heard is also elaborated in beautiful words. Are you just reading and writing or also into the battle Guru ji asks us to be. If answer is yes, then your this question is disturbing otherwise you are filled with so many doubts, it is impossible to walk on that path because the doubtful mind is not helpful . Surprisingly you quote upnishda with same message of surrender in the end of your post, is it more clear? No, simply believing has not been conceived, and it should be natural.[/FONT]*

*The Vedas are stated to be the words of God. Bani admits it at more than one place and in fact, entire Granth sahib is spilled over by these references. Bani has also stated that Vedas were the words uttered by The intangible entity called as God or ‘waheguru’ by whatever name called.[/FONT]*
*Gurbani stated clearly that Vedas taught trade, Guru taught knowledge ( M-1, I am quoting it at the end), isn’t it enough that the references are given but are not accepted. , it is said that Veda also sing praises of God, does it mean we should leave our path and search Vedas to enrich our knowledge because those Sikhs who only believed in Gurbani lacked some thing. Vedas are praised only in a context where they have referred to Him, where they advocate other stuff like human sacrifice and extreme ability( Ambedkar Atharv Veda)and trade affair,Are not appreciated; so why only reference is dragging you to that way, it is beyond my understanding.[/FONT]
*
*The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the [/FONT]**Vedas[/FONT]**; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.[p2L8][/FONT]*
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
*By listening to Naam one gets the benefit of the knowledge of Shastras and Vedas.Thus by Listening to Naam [ which is not known to a Sikh] one gets the reward of the entire wisdom contained in Vedasa. With due regards and respect to the Gurus, I do not disagree with this .But Naam is a vehicle that leads to the holy knowledge and the divinity contained in Vedas.[/FONT]*
*Here message is simple, if distorted what can I do, Guru ji says whatever Guru says it is veda, Veda means also  knowledge not only those VEDAS, it is said in context of HIM, Raheea smaaee”, here, knowledge about Him is obtained through Guru, you want to think otherwise, it is your choice, never think for a second I am here to pursue you in any direction, you asked me, I am telling,
[/FONT]* *that is it. Every thing rests here, so please do not think otherwise about my responses
[/FONT]*ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਵੇਦ ॥
*Guru nanak has time and again claimed that all including Vedas sing of you, the Creator!! So where is the big difference. The Supreme entity has been the same and is the same as has been proclaimed in Vedas that was the origin of the organized format of the divinity.[/FONT]*
*Do you think, Guru Nanak should have used some alien language to make you understand it is other Power. Centuries over centuries passed after all those concepts, many of them were buried under other writings since they are not authored by any one or compiled in a way that no body could have corrupted them. Guru came on the stage, after his enlightenment he proceeded to bring people to HIM; he had to use the terminology people already heard about. Most of he picked up from day to day exploitation of the society who locked in the knowledge from common people. If it was there already, it was dead. How much Vedas were available to every one?[/FONT]*
*In so dar- Raag Aasaa , Guru Nanak dev ji admits that all sing your praises. Hindus sing through Vedas and Sikhs do praises through Nitnem and simran.The methodology or remembering HIM is different. This difference is bound to be there on account of time and the practices adopted and followed over different period of times. It does not mean at all that Sikhs have discarded these Hly and the most ancient Books or the scriptures. At no place Gurus have stated against the Vedas that is stated to be the store house of knowledge including Naam and its significance.[/FONT]*
*They are also house of many things like atharva Vedas, read a book by Swami Ram teerath Ji Dandi Sanyaasi, he read them, he wrote about them, he could say better than you or me who quote from here or there, the name is” Aad Sree Guru Granth Sahib” published by SGPC Amritsar[/FONT]*
Yes, the Almighty is one and is supremus has been also stated so in Vedas as well as is also admitted in bani. In Sri-Rag Guru Nanak ji states as follows. He states that everything stated in his philosophy in the following ‘sabad’is also proclaimed in Vedas. Hence Sikhism is all but an adopted faith from Vedas and Upnishdas and rest is decorative part and minor adjustments.
*In Sikhism there is no decoration, Guru Nanak says he was asked by the Creator to sing His praise and teach others to do so, please see Maajh Kee Vaar Pouri 27, that was personal experience expressed, if still you do not believe him but think all is taken from Vedas, good luck. Daya Nand would have analyzed every borrowed thing as you say and wrote there about him, instead he was furious because all the system of Hinduism was attacked by Guru Nanak( Satyaarth)
[/FONT]*ਬੇਦੁਪੁਕਾਰੇਵਾਚੀਐਬਾਣੀਬ੍ਰਹਮਬਿਆਸੁ॥
The [/FONT]Vedas proclaim[/FONT], and the words of Vyaasa tell us,[/FONT]
[/FONT]ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਾਧਿਕਾ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ ॥
[/FONT]    that the silent sages, the servants of the Lord, and those who practice a life of spiritual discipline are attuned to the Naam, the Treasure of Excellence.

*Let me give you real interpretation of this Guru Vaak to understand it*
Here it isਬਿਆਸ ਰਿਸ਼ੀ (ਤਾਂ ਮੁੜਮੁੜ) ਵੇਦ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਪਰ ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪੜ੍ਹਨੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ। ਅਸਲੀ ਮੁਨੀ ਲੋਕ ਸੇਵਕ ਤੇ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਉਹੀਹਨ ਜੋ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਖ਼ਜ਼ਾਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ। ਜੇਹੜੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਸਦਾਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਨਾਮ-ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਜੀਵਨ-ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਜਿੱਤਕੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮੈਂ ਭੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਕੁਰਬਾਨ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ।੬।
 Admittedly the entire philosophy is contained in Vedas. Bani has not rejected it. It has reinforced that the route to the Lord is through the Naam. What is the Naam? Sikhs have their doubts. Vedas are clear about this. If Bani is the word of God for Sikhs the Vedas are the word of God for almost all. It is admitted so in bani. If further indulgence is required I shall do that for the benefit of the discussion. 
*You are jumping on conclusion without even searching for a right interpretation.
I call it lies based on imaginative sources.
The society where Guru Nanak grew up in, had major two faiths, Islam and Hinduism though there were other sectarian ideology like Yog matt, Janism etc. Guru Nanak as enlightened one, had to address them in their own language and terminology to lead the seekers to the Ultimate Truth. Who were scared of this new religion of Guru Nanak, used same terminology as a base to blend this new religion.. Vashanavites and Hindus were those who declared that those terms were already in Vedas etc so Sikhs Gurus are aligned with those, therefore it is a kind of Hinduism and Vashanavism . Surprisingly all these terms are given new meaning in SGGS stressing only on His Nam and love for Him obtainable only through Guru but still it depends on His grace.*
All religions state that HIS grace is a must.
*Please enlighten me on this, it should be as dominating as it is in Gurbani, besides the trade is accepted right in Veda scriptures, how even you can compare Gurbani in that context?.*
   This is something implied. Sikhs admit it in explicit manner. 
*There are statements in them, people wasted their lives over centuries on those statements” do this and get this, you are talking like a person who has seen pre veda period.*
  His Naam and Grace are also the essence of the Hinduism that I am talking of. I shall put forward the same as and when required. 
YES IT IS REQUIRED IN CONTEXT WHERE TRADE IS NOT IN FRON SEAT.[/FONT]
*This needs a thorough thesis to negate claims based on some similarities as they are there in every faith, however, lets take some examples from Guru Granth (Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text) Sahib against Hinduism.
*[/FONT]    *Caste.System: In Hinduism, it is a base, in Balmiki Ramayin( Uttar Kand A 76)Ram Chandra is shown killing a person belonging to low class just because he was doing bhagati, on his beheading, Devtas shower flowers. That is the bottom line, if the revered Devta Ram Chand does such heinous crime for Caste System, imagine how much it is deep into the psyche of the followers, contrary to it, Sikh Guru makes his followers to drink from one pot. Strong rejectio*n of Caste System , more ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ॥ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ॥ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥ 
Salok mehlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā*o. Sabẖnā jī*ā ikā cẖẖā*o. Āphu jė ko bẖalā kahā*ė. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lėkẖai pā*ė. ||1|| 
Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak! 

I have not deleted this on account of the fact that your understanding is different from that we have about Ram Chandra. Ram Chandra , a s a generic name tells, was Incarnation of God and bani admits this as well.
*Gurbani says people call them” incarnation of God” please reread quote in this regard, do not distort, if you do not believe in Gurbani, it is fine with me.*
   In fact one of the favorite name of the God is Ram in bani.
Gurbani uses almost all prevailed names for HIM, that doesn’t prove it is addressing to them individually as you claim here. That is a concept, when some says” Guru ji my Krishan, Guru Ji is my Brahama, that doesn’t mean, person is addressing those ones. Why so many names are used for Him, think about it.
   Kindly do not distort the things for the sake of discussion. Bani of Bhagats contain many reference of Ram. Also state that you are sure of. Your reference, allusion and hence the conclusions are simply lop-sided and heavily tilted to win over the discussion and to mislead the readers.
*May be it is your intention to win over; it is not mine for sure ever. I share, I disagree, if some one has intention to win, it is his or her problem. Nothing is distorted, above example exist in Ramayen, read it and find out why a so called god beheaded a poor” shoodr*”?
   What is caste system.??? Interpreters usually endeavor to hit upon something novel. But truth is, of course, truth. It is neither ever new, nor does it ever grow old. Fresh issues that find a place in newspaper columns are but temporal events that emerge one day and disappear on the next. It is that has happened with caste system. Caste system was there for reasons when it had its origin and when it came into being. It was based on the concept of economics that is division of labor. Gurus had not liked caste system and had discarded it for reasons and there is not much space for discussion. We take policy decisions over a period of time these decisions are not found worthy of being good to the society and at one point or another these gets diluted with passage of time and new decisions have to be taken after having a re look at the situations and the social disparities. 
*As Bhai Kahan Singh tries to prove the difference of the two, caste system comes first in Hinduism. Contrary to it Sikhism has  a characteristic, a wondrous thing to be found in 500 hundred years ago. Accept it as a quality or just say you like it for economics reasons. I wonder why other societies survived without it( Caste system) and did better than this society inflicted with it.
*Do you not agree that with passage of just 400 years castes have not appeared in /amongst Sikhs? Surely, these have and even the basis of marriages are based on castes. I shall not be in this discussion for the time being. Do you then mean that at some point Sikhism shall also have to be discarded? No, it is not the basic Sikh philosophy, if any, that shall have to be discarded but SGPC should do the needful to keep Sikhism intact. So whatever, the Gurus saw they tried to rectify it only so that the social order is/was not disturbed. That being so the basic edifice was never challenged. Yes, some flaws were pointed out for carrying out the improvement.
*It has nothing to do with the pious ideology Guru ji passed on. What people do, on that, ideology cannot be blamed.* *You really do not sound to accept it. So it be.*
In fcat , Bani addresses Ram as God.
ਰਘੁਬੰਸਿ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਦਸਰਥ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਬੰਛਹਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੰ ॥ 
He is certified, like the handsome Ram Chander in the house of Dasrath of the Raghwa dynasty. Even the silent sages seek His Sanctuary.
[page1401/l19]

Who is Certified?kindly look into this yourself and you shall get the answer
*It is a comparison, please don’t take it otherwise for God’s Sake, do not drag it to where it doesn’t belong. Read Dr Sahib Singh, Manmohan Singh or Gurbachan Singh Talib you will be surprised*
*2AVTAR. In Hinduism, God incarnates individually, Gurbani rejects it by calling them kings who were called as God incarnation*
ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿਕਰਿਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥ { YOU SEE HERE.IN RED. PEOPLE SING THEIR PRAISES AS GOD INCARNATION, IT IS NOT GURBANI SAYS SO.}
Jugah jugah kė rājė kī*ė gāvahi kar avṯārī. Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā*i*ā ṯā kā ki*ā kar ākẖ vīcẖārī. ||7|| 
In every age the Lord creates the Kings who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits. What shall I then say and reflect upon? 
ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ॥ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ॥੩॥
Ḏas a*uṯār rājė ho*ė varṯė mahāḏėv a*uḏẖūṯā. Ŧinĥ bẖī anṯ na pā*i*o ṯėrā lā*ė thakė bibẖūṯā. ||3|| 
There have been ten incarnations, Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes. 

Avtaars are the incarnations of God. Sikhism rejects the idea of it. 
Dear Sir, Sikhism admit its Gurus as Avtaars. 

*Does it mean Gurbani is wrong and these guys are right, if some are lost in metaphors, you will blame Gurbani, I referred Gurbani not certain sectarian views.*

*Fast*
*Fasts are considered pious in Hinduism, Sikhism rejects them outright*.
ਅੰਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਥੀਜੈ ॥ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੀਜੈ ॥੬॥ 
Ann na kẖāhi ḏėhī ḏukẖ ḏījai. Bin gur gi*ān ṯaripaṯ nahī thījai. Manmukẖ janmai janam marījai. ||6|| 
Some one takes, not food, and tortures his body. Without the Guru's wisdom he becomes not content. Such a perverse person is born only to die and be born again. 
Fasts are the practices that are performed for physical cleaning and many Sikhs do practice it if not as a religious practice but to keep them physically fit. In any case it is faith only and not a matter of religion. Even if it is practiced by some it does not change the basic philosophy underlying the Hinduism. 
*Again I quoted Gurbani and you are quoting some people who are not even under my consideration; we are discussing originals.

Tithi Vaar ( good or bad omen)*
*Hindus are grounded in initial pleasing of the demi gods they believe in before starting anything, according to Gurbani all these are chains of imaginative fears, Sikhs are advised to just thank HIM, do prayer to Him, that is it.*
ਸਗੁਨ ਅਪਸਗੁਨ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਹਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
Sagun apasgun ṯis ka*o lageh jis cẖīṯ na āvai. Ŧis jam nėṛ na āvī jo har parabẖ bẖāvai. ||2|| 
Good omens and bad omens befall him who remembers not the Lord. Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God. 

Yes, it is true for Sikhs as well. What is the meaning of this line that you have quoted? It is irrelevant as death strikes all and does not know or discriminates between the Sikhs or Hindus.All die the same death. 
*Sikh80 ji, here death is not end of life , here it is indication of spiritual death.*
*You know Gurmukhi, you know English then why this slippery journey?*

*Pilgrimage*
*Many faiths give pilgrimage extreme importance, in Hinduism it is vital to wash sins, Gurbani rejects it*
[/FONT]ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ਨ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰੈ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣੇ ਚਲਸਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੨॥
[/FONT]Ŧirath nā*ė na uṯras mail.Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ ha*umai fail.Lok pacẖārai gaṯ 
nahī ho*ė.Nām bihūṇė cẖalsahi ro*ė. ||2|| 
[/FONT]Bathing at shrines, the filth departs not.The rituals and religious rites are all the ostentations of self-conceit.Pleasing the people, one is emancipated not.Without the Lord's Name, the screen is shattered not. 
[/FONT]ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ॥ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ਤੀਰਥੁਪੂਰਾਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਜੋਅਨਦਿਨੁਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਏ॥ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ॥ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ 

Mehlā 4.Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā*ė.Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā*ė.Jė agai ṯirath ho*ė ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā*ė.Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an*ḏin har har nām ḏẖi*ā*ė.Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si*o ḏė har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā*ė.Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā*ė. ||2|| 
[/FONT]Fourth Guru.He, within whom is the truth obtains the True Name and with his mouth utters the truth.He himself walks in God's way and puts others on God's path.If there be a pure water tank in front then the filth is washed off. By bathing in a pond, still more filth attaches to the man.The perfect place of pilgrimage is the True Guru who night and day meditates on the Name of Lord God.He is saved himself along with his family and by giving the Name of the Lord Master saves the whole world.Servant Nanak is a sacrifice unto him, who himself repeats God's Name and causes others to utter the Name. 

Hindus do believe in naam as has been proclaimed by Vedas and admitted by bani.The following is quoted from introduction to geeta.
[/FONT]*“The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]*

When a man is surrounded by the ocean on all sides, he has no use for a pond. Just so a Brahmin who has gained knowledge of the Supreme Spirit has no use for the Ved. That means that the one who knows God transcends HE knows all that is to be known.”
WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN CONTEXT OF PILGRIMAGE?DO NOT BOUNCE AROUND.
*Tantar Mantar*
*A part of Hinduism including other sectarian boxes, Sikhism considers it hypocrisy.*
[/FONT]ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੇ ਸੂਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ 
Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na jāṇā rām riḏai man māni*ā.Anjan nām ṯisai ṯė sūjẖai gur sabḏī sacẖ jāni*ā. ||4|| 
[/FONT]Enchantment, witchcraft and hypocrisy I know not, placing the Lord within my heart, my, my soul is pleased.The Name-salve is known from him alone, who by 
Guru's instruction realises the True Lord. 
*Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji states that there are seven basics of Hinduism*
*1 To accept Vedas as Truth*
*2. To keep faith and to accept results of virtues and misdeeds are Heaven and Hell*
*3 Believing in incarnation and seek liberation*
*4 To believe Caste system as a base of the Hinduism*
*5 Burn the dead*
*6. Protect Cow*
*7 Have faith in purity and impurity ( as contagious*
*Now lets see Sikhism in this prospective*



1.*The base of Sikhism is not Vedas, actually Vedas preach trade. For a Sikh only Gurbani is tr*ueਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥॥੨੪॥ 
Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.
Yes, Hindus also believe that without Lord everything is False. 
*I quoted what Guru says about other scriptures, where as Hindus believe that base is Veda, Guru ji says, only Gurbani is true. Here my intention is just to see the difference, your comment I couldn’t understand in this context.
**“The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]*
* 2All believers have faith, it is not only part of Hinduism, there is no special definition in Sikhism about Heavan and Hell save for their references as suffering due to turning back towards the creator.*
It is immaterial. What matters is what we do in the present life. In any case Hindus believe in theory of karma and Sikhs do the same. As you sow so shall you reap. It is the basic edifice of Sikhism and is the backbone of Hinduism so that people practice the righteousness and this is also acclaimed in sikhi.
*In Hindu thought it cannot be changed but Gurbani states otherwise, if His refuge is taken He can change, that is basic difference*.( See quote at the end)
*3Incarnation is not only believed by Hindus but also by ancient Egyptians and others, they were not known as Hindus because of it.so who believe in it, does not automatically become Hindu.*
Sikhs belive in Avtaars as well.i need not quote from bani.
*Why you are quoting people, if they ignore Gurbani, does it mean, Gurbani has no significance? As Guru says, very rare will follow the truth, I believe that, going stray is common place so why to question Gurbani on the basis of some people.
 [/FONT]* *5Well, it is not advocated by Sikhism, bodies of Guru Arjan Dev and Mata Ganga Ji were rested in water. *
  What is the relevance of this point.? Kindly illumine.
*It means if bodies of Guru Ji and Mata Ganga were rested in water, that proves Sikhs do not have Taboo about it. Relevance is comparison of both we have been discussing.*
*6In Sikhism, Cow is not special pure animal as Hindus do.*
Let it not be so. Sikhs have many other rituals which Hindus do not have.in any case these are not significant points relevant to discussion.
*It is comparison, why you are keep saying it is relevant? Aren’t we comparing?
7In Sikhism, concept of purity is totally new, only through **Nam** Simran purity is obtained, in Hinduism there are many rituals to do purity.*
*Gurus themselves declare *
Hinduism has almost the same concept of Holiness. Purity of mind is as impressed upon more significantly in Hinduism as well.
*COME ON PLEASE, all kinds of rituals are rejected in Gurbani, Hindu nostalgic people’s behavior cannot be made base to judge Sikhism. You are way out of reason. I would prefer to end this discussion. What you have been doing, rejecting Gurbani and inserting some so called Sikh’s practices as a religion, that proves, you are more interested what some people do in real life than what Gurbani says. In Harminder Sahib women were stopped from doing service, is it advocated by Gurbani? No, We cannot insert such happening as a religion principle.*
*God's word [/FONT]**[bani[/FONT]**]Leads one to acquire the knowledge of vedas. [/FONT]*
*That is distortion, meaning has been given above. Gurbani does not say it lead you to knowledge of Vedas; if it were true why would Guru Nanak declare they are source of trade( SEE Below Guru Ji’s own word)[/FONT]*
*That alone is sufficient for me to reject any similarities and other wisdom. I shared how I am grounded with Gurbani inspiration, no doubt disturbs me, no knowledge attractants me, no similarities bother me. How  doyou think and decide I leave on you, I  am not here to convince,  please do not base your views on distortion as you have done above. Here is Guru ji directly addressing VEDAS’ Wisdom in context of Guru Gyaan[/FONT]*
ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ .ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਉਤਮ ਮਧਿਮ ਜਾਤੀਂ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਖੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ .ਸੁਰਤੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਧਿਆਈ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਾਜਿ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਖੈ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੋ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥ 
Salok mehlā 2.Kathā kahāṇī bėḏīŉ āṇī pāp punn bīcẖār.Ḏė ḏė laiṇā lai lai ḏėṇā narak surag avṯār.Uṯam maḏẖim jāṯīŉ jinsī bẖaram bẖavai 
sansār. Amriṯ baṇī ṯaṯ vakẖāṇī gi*ān ḏẖi*ān vicẖ ā*ī. Gurmukẖ ākẖī gurmukẖ jāṯī surṯīŉ karam ḏẖi*ā*ī. Hukam sāj hukmai vicẖ rakẖai hukmai anḏar vėkẖai. Nānak agahu ha*umai ṯutai ṯāŉ ko likī*ai lėkẖai. ||1|| 
Slok 2nd Guru. The Vedas have brought legends and tales and they expound vice and virtue. What men give as gratis they receive and what they receive as gratis they give. According to their deeds, they are born in hell or heaven. Reading them the world wanders in the doubt of high and low castes and classes. The ambrosial Gurbani speaks of the Real Thing and has been revealed unto the Guru in the state of Divine Knowledge and meditation. The Guru-wards utter it, the Guru-wards realise it and by God's grace, the divines ponder over it, Creating the world in His will, the Lord keeps it in His will and in His will He beholds it. If before he dies, man's ego is stilled, O Nanak, then becomes he acceptable in God's co 
(ਜੋ) ਤਾਲੀਮ ਵੇਦਾਂਨੇ ਲਿਆਂਦੀ (ਭਾਵ, ਦਿੱਤੀ), (ਉਸ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ) ਵਿਚਾਰ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਪਾਪ ਕੀਹ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਪੁੰਨ ਕੀਹਹੈ, (ਉਸ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਹੱਥੋਂ) ਦੇ ਕੇ ਹੀ (ਮੁੜ) ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਕਿਸੇਤੋਂ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਉਹ (ਅਗਲੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ) ਮੋੜੀਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਆਪਣੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਨਰਕਵਿਚ ਜਾਂ ਸੁਰਗ ਵਿਚ ਅੱਪੜੀਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਇਸ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਦੁਨੀਆ ਉੱਚੀਆਂ ਨੀਵੀਆਂਜਾਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਿਸਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਹਿਮਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। (ਪਰ ਜੋ) ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਉਚਾਰੀਹੈ, (ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਡੂੰਘੇ ਭੇਤ ਨੂੰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ (ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ) ਸੁਰਤਿਆਂ ਨੇਜਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਮ-ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਆਨ ਕਰਦੀਹੈ, ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਵਿਚ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੋੜਿਆਂਪਰਗਟ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। (ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੱਸਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੁਕਮ (-ਰੂਪ ਸੱਤਿਆ) ਸਾਜਕੇ (ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਆਪਣੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰਦਾਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ) ਪਹਿਲਾਂ (ਜੀਵ ਦੀ) ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈਤਾਂ ਜੀਵ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਵਾਨ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।੧। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਇਸ ਸਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਵੇਦਾਂਦੀ ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਦਾ ਨਿਖੇੜਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ।
*NOW WHY IS THIS REJECTION? Due to “ Karm theory” and more you try to enforce in Sikhism as a part to claim it has borrowed all from Veda Wisdom, read below, not my words, Guru speaks himself on this issue; you still want to ignore it,  do it if you wish so !*

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਕਾ ਬੀਉ ॥ ਜੋ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਉਗਵੈ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਸਲਾਹੇ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸਚੁ ਬੀਜੈ ਸਚੁ ਉਗਵੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਈਐ ਥਾਉ ॥ ਬੇਦੁ ਵਪਾਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਮੀ ਪਲੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਸੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਲਦਿ ਨ ਚਲਿਆ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
Mehlā 1. Bėḏ pukārė punn pāp surag narak kā bī*o. Jo bījai so ugvai kẖāŉḏā jāṇai jī*o. Gi*ān salāhė vadā kar sacẖo sacẖā nā*o. Sacẖ bījai sacẖ ugvai ḏargeh pā*ī*ai thā*o. Bėḏ vapārī gi*ān rās karmī palai ho*ė. Nānak rāsī bāhrā laḏ na cẖali*ā ko*ė. ||2|| 
1st Guru. The Vedas proclaim that virtue and vice are the seed of heaven and hell. Whatever man sows that alone grows. The soul realises it, when it eats the fruit of his deeds. Deeming diving knowledge great, whosoever praises it he becomes truthful, uttering the True Name. Sowing truthfulness, truthfulness grows in man and he finds a seat in the Lord's Court. The Veda is but a trader. The soul's capital-stock is only the Lord's comprehension, which is obtained through the Lord's grace. Nanak, without this capital-stock none has ever departed laden with the profit of the Lord's Name. 
ਵੇਦ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਇਹ ਹੈਕਿ (ਜੀਵ ਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ) ਪੁੰਨ-ਕਰਮ (ਉਸ ਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਸੁਰਗ (ਮਿਲਣ) ਦਾ ਸਬੱਬ (ਬਣਦਾ)ਹੈ ਤੇ ਪਾਪ (ਜੀਵ ਲਈ) ਨਰਕ (ਵਿਚ ਪੈਣ) ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; (ਆਪਣੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਏਪੁੰਨ ਜਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਦਾ ਫਲ) ਖਾਣ ਵਾਲਾ (ਹਰੇਕ) ਜੀਵ (ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਜਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਕੁਝਕੋਈ ਬੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹੀ ਉੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸੋ, ਇਸ ਕਰਮ-ਕਾਂਡ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ)। (ਪਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਆ)ਗਿਆਨ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਡਾ ਆਖ ਕੇ (ਉਸ ਦੀ) ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈਕਿ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ (ਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚ) ਬੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਫੁਲਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਆਦਰ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸੋ, ਪਾਪ ਤੇ ਪੁੰਨ ਦੇ ਫਲ ਦੱਸ ਕੇ) ਵੇਦ ਤਾਂ ਵਪਾਰਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ; (ਪਰ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਲਈ ਅਸਲ) ਰਾਸਿ-ਪੂੰਜੀ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦਾ)ਗਿਆਨ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਨਾਲ (ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ) ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ; ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਸਗਿਆਨ-ਰੂਪ) ਪੂੰਜੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ 
(ਜਗਤ ਤੋਂ) ਨਫ਼ਾ ਖੱਟ ਕੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦਾ।੨। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਪਿਛਲੇ ਸਲੋਕ ਵਾਂਗ ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਵੇਦ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਹੋਏ ਕਰਮ-ਕਾਂਡ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇਦਿੱਤੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਦਾ ਆਪੋ ਵਿਚ ਟਾਕਰਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। 
*GOOD LUCK GENTLEMAN !!!!*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Respected Pk70 ji,**

*Thanks for your reply.*

02.Amrit ceremomy-Area Of no-convergence.*
              is`KW nUM is`KI dwn, kys dwn, rihq dwn, ibbyk dwn, ivswh dwn, Brosw           dwn, dwnW isr dwn, nwm dwn sRI AMimRqsr jI dy ieSnwn, cOkIAW, JMfy,           buMgy, jugo jug At`l, Drm kw jYkwr, bolo jI vwihgurU!!!
*
Sikhs in standard Ardas beg for naam daily.
They have been doing so for centuries and shall continue to do so for centuries.
 They do not know what to meditate upon. God shall give naam only to one in a million.Naam is not disclosed in the Granth. Only Guru mantra is told and that also is defined by the scribe of the Guru.It is for this reason that I want to avoid Amrit Sanchar and naam drid during Sanchar ceremony.


*  * I take along the points where there can be possibility of some convergence right now or in the immediate future, for the reason I have placed Amrit ceremony in area of no-convergence for the time being as you are fairly strong on this. When we have discussed it at length, may be some convergence develops and that may be the starting point of the Amrit ceremony. *


*As there is no concept in Hinduism, things are simple.*

*03. Essential ingredients of Religion*

*In any religion, worth the name, all these are the essential ingredients, His order or the divine order and the His grace and the liberation. Each and every religion leads to Mukti and should do so to enable it to be called as Mukti or liberation. The religion that does not tell us clearly as to how to reach HIM is not a religion at all.There is nothing new in that you have stated above. *


*Wow, I didn’t feel ever like this, since I took it to mind, I have no problem, after posting thousands of essays or kathas, suddenly your this declaration has surprised me. What is not clear? How to reach to HIM? Systematically Gurbani takes you to walk on the path with sincerity. By merely defining words used in Gurbani is not walking on it. Gurbani in Mool Mantra explicitly explains, which you understood, who is He with little reservation, Guru ji continues describing how even after trying, He remains inexpressible. Guru makes me understand about HIM the creator of all( Japji) What more clarity do you need. Then an effort is done many times to explain His Hukam( Japji), How to be heard is also elaborated in beautiful words. Are you just reading and writing or also into the battle Guru ji asks us to be. If answer is yes, then your this question is disturbing otherwise you are filled with so many doubts, it is impossible to walk on that path because the doubtful mind is not helpful . Surprisingly you quote upnishda with same message of surrender in the end of your post, is it more clear? No, simply believing has not been conceived, and it should be natural.*


*03.1*

*When the sheer meaning of Guru is not clear to me and I hope to many other as well how can then one presume that Guru shall guide us. Who is the Guru you have referred to here ?.It should be Guru Granth sahib ji. But at many places in bani it does not appear to be so. Many posts in the recently started thread should make it abundantly clear as to who is Guru is ambiguous and leaves a lot of scope for manipulation by the seekers as per their understanding. There are references to many types of Gurus and there is no standardization that is seemingly possible. *

*1.Who is a Guru in Sikhism as per Granth.? Who is God in Sikhism.? **In Hinduism these are different entities. Is it the essential difference between sikhism and Hinduism.?*
*03.2*
*Some respected member has recently found out the meaning of a term that should qualify for Satguru. When the Lord or waheguru is not clear in the Granth sahib, how it is expected that the seeker shall proceed further? This is the way to alienate Sikhism from Hinduism where the concept of God and Guru is clear on account of acceptance of Human gurus as things get simplified.*
*0.3.3*
*1.Who is Guru and who is Lord is not clear in bani and leaves lot of scope for confusion. There is no scope of confusion in Gita where the Lord Himself declares as the creator and is the one to be obtained.One does not discard other scriptures just because it has been said so.*
*2.Who is the Creator as per bani?*
*3.Were/Are Gurus the Creators ?*
*In hinduism things are simple and clear. There may be idolatory, But then sikhs also practice by keeping the Granth sahib in Gurudwara. It is a modified version of the same.Then there is a Granthi or a Paathi and then there are persons who prepare kada parsad. Keeping idols help the person to concentrate on the diety he/she loves.This is the present status so what is the big difference.*
*0.3.4*
*Sikhism professes Naam Simran and meditation. *
*1.What is that Naam.Is it known even to a single sikh that sikhs are proud of.One in a million understands the reality.This is as per Granth sahib. What is the name of asingle sikh who have acknowledged meeting/realizing/seeing HIM or getting close to the truth. Even the Granth sahib gives reference to Dhruv or Parhlad who themselves are just myth,at the moment, in Hinduism.? 
*
*
*
*Is it waheguru or satnaaam or Guru nanak and like wise. None is stated clearly in the Granth sahib.*
*
*
*2.Which ever it is, is it given by the God to the seeker or there are some other ways. *

*In Hinduism things are simple and plain. Remember the one ~OM~, the all pervasive and one reaches the goal.*

*I think it is the only way we can move ahead in a systematic manner i.e. by taking one point at a time and taking care of the rest in the posts that may follow.
You are free to suggest any other method so that issues are resolved one by one.
*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 19, 2008)

It's my opinion that so many unclear issues within Gurbani, such as is human Guru God? how does Jyot move to another living form which isn't even reincarnation? what is Naam? what is significance of Dhyaan? what is significance of Sehaj yoga and Raja yoga? why are names of Vishnu avtaaras praised in Gurbani such as Krishna, Raam, Narasingh?  How is Ek Oangkar different from Omkar?  What is true meaning of Ek Omkar? How is human Guruji also One with nirguna? as Sikh80 writes, are all concepts which become immediately clarified if you take time to read Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita.  Then everything becomes clear and simple with no contradiction whatsoever.   Not only that, but it becomes clear what is missing in our sadhana, true bhairaag and bhakti through purification of mind and kalpas, and skandas and kaleshas, and understanding no one is a spiritual elitist.  Not even Sikhs.  Guruji is the same as Krishan Avtaar.  He is the same as the coming Kalki avtaar.  So we can accept all holy people as an example of goodness without being narrowly constrained to only one single community as having some sort of Abrahamic salvation. 

Shri Guru Granth Sahibji contains the essence of all truth from the past, but is bigger, just like nirguna is bigger than anyone's definitions.  God who cannot be described, also cannot be rejected simply because a person has a wrong or limited viewpoint.  The essence of Gurbani teaching is not that Sikhs have the One true God, and everybody else has a fake god.  Gurbani teaches ALL manifestations are the One, because the One nirguna pervades within all forms.  The entire message is tolerance.  We don't have to get offended if someone worships demi-gods.  Everyone is where they are at.  Who are we to judge and condemn them?  Are we so holy? They go to their deva-loka but cannot obtain jeevanmukti until they obtain the fourth state of consciousness and merge into Nirbikalpa samadhi.  Gurbani teaches so many different names of God, yet Sikhs will condemn you to say Raam is God, or Vishnu is God.  But that's exactly what Gurbani says.  They say it's not really Raam though, it's just Akal Purakh by a changed name.  But Gurbani says unmistakably it is Ramachandra.  Raam is also Guruji.  He is an avtaara, not a demi-god.

So we should be able to chant Raam, Raam, and Har, Har, and Satinaam Shri Vaheguru.  And no one should be offended.  We should be free to sing bhajans to Govinda, Gopala and Shri Krishna because Gurbani does the same!  Then people say, No!  That's not really Krishna, it's metaphor for the nirguna.  So how come Gurbani describes the nirguna as blue, playing a flute around the gopis in Vrindaban?  Because it really IS describing Shri Krishna.  Gurbani says the name of God is Shiva, Shiva, and Allah, Allah.

Ek Omkar.  The one is within the many.  That's what Gurbani says.  The Lord is within the Gopis and Krishna.  The Lord is within Ramachandra.  The Lord is within everyone.  Why are we stuttering over nirgun definitions like Akal Purakh, Ajooni, Parabrahm, so we avoid even appearance of calling God as something less.  How can that which is everything be less?  How can nirguna even be described?  No one can even praise nirguna.  Nirguna is unknowable to human consciousness.  We have to praise sarguna.  That is why Gurbani says the Name of God is Allah, Krishna, Shiva, Raam, Govinda, Gopala.  Everyones mind has some kind of concept.  Until we obtain mukti, we have not purified the limitations of human concepts.  Instead of condemning someone else's concepts, why don't we condemn our own hypocrisy and become a wiser, more compassionate, more mature spiritual community?

I'm really tired of looking at holy people and authentically profound and moving spiritual practices and thinking, "No, I can't believe in that, it's not Sikhi."  And then looking at the sadness of Sikh community and thinking, "This is my satsangat?  These are the people who have the only boat of mukti in kalyug, and can't even love each other?"  And the truth is, just go outside the box a bit, and really learn the spiritual truths of Gurbani as explained in Vaishnava Puranas, and even Shiva sutras and suddenly there is no bondage anymore.  What is truth, is truth.  What is corruption, is corruption.  And no labels such as "Hindu" or "Sikh" can distort the differences.  The good things speak with their own voice of holiness.  And the bad things can't hide and pretend.

You can accept that Nihang Jatha is probably correct about Jhatka and bhang from a K'shatriya military standpoint, because Shaivism is basically a tantric path which goes against prevailing conventions, and as such it challenges the bondages of the psychology and can be a path of mukti for some people.

If you pull the rubberband of the mind too tight trying to be perfectionistic and totally good, your shadow unconscious will overwhelm you and drag you into sin.  Some people have to have particular experiences.  That's why they are here.  Why would it be a sin for warriors to eat meat?  They are killing people and making them into dog meat.  A soldier is able to hack people to death in a battlefield and we worry whether he's eating goat meat killed in quick and painless way?  And does it make logical sense that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a hunter, but never ate the meat?  Does it make sense that soldiers are suffering grievous wounds and infections and we deny them bhang and opium?  Like modern medicine doesn't use morphine?  I think it has legitimacy in context.  Especially when you compare traditional Shaivite naga babas who were formidable warriors who didn't fear death, who also took bhang and ate meat.  Theres a lineage there.  In fact, if the relationship between Nihangs and Shaivites is authentic, the naga babas go back thousands of years and are an ancient tradition.  A tradition of austerity and yogic self-surrender and sacrifice.  No one practices more tapas than a soldier does.

That's why the modern version of limited Sikhism has no mysticism.  It's not even accepting mysticism is reality.  And seems afraid to even explore potential history or alternate interpretations.  What kind of truth is ever afraid of investigation?  But if you can accept Hindu roots of Gursikhi, then tolerance also comes, ease of mind and heart comes because you don't have to push things into little compartments.  There's suddenly room for a spirituality of people who never cut hair, and people who cut hair, and people who shave heads.  Theres room for a spirituality where people are vegetarian and people can eat meat.  Theres room for people who practice yoga, and people who do not.

And when you honestly evaluate what Gurbani actually says... isn't this it?  Everyone is where they are at depending on their own level of karmic and spiritual development.  Guruji doesn't reject someone because he's not "already" a Gurumukh.  And becoming a Gurumukh, a truly God-realized soul will be different for different people, because the level of development isn't the same for everyone.  We can even tolerate Naamdharis.  If they're wrong, in time all will be corrected.  We don't gain anything to embrace a narrow authoritarianism which rejects everyone who understands differently.  Who is to say our understanding is that great?  We are probably all wrong about a lot of things.  If Jagjit Singh Naamdhari is totally wrong, we have to admit he lived a good life.  Probably better life than many Sikh jathedars who exclude him.  I mean, what would happen if we just stopped rejecting.  Would the world fall down?  Maybe the political opportunists would fall down.  Then we could all develop a wise and tolerant maturity for wrong-thinking, like parents of kids who aren't perfect, but we love them anyway.  And who is to say we aren't the spiritual kids?  Why can't we just have compassion for the people who do wrong things, since they are surely creating enough misery for themselves.  Do they need our judgement and condemnation to add to it?  Why can't we pray for the liberation of demons?  We can kill demons in combat but not bless their suffering or do ardas for their release from pain?  Why can't we tolerate Kala Afghana?  What in the world is gained through excommunication?  Why can't people just be understanding of others as a spiritual practice?  What would it hurt to tolerate his viewpoint?  Who can he harm?  Now this is not accepting or blessing harmful behavior.  Stopping evil doing is compassion for the victims.  But opinions aren't dangerous.  Opinions aren't evil.  If they're wrong and foolish opinions, understanding will come in time.  How can someone elses foolishness hurt me?  What's the big stress to make everyone conform?  Sikhism isn't Islam.  Why can't someone be an atheistic scientist?  Nirguna as a field of force has somewhat the qualities an atheist could relate too.  Buddhists are atheistic and happen to be very spiritually advanced.

So I find this the most believable interpretation, as it is the broadest, truest, most historically accurate, and lines up most closely with Gurbani.  Why are we going through hoops to absolutely NOT accept Hinduism as an ancient, broad spiritual path with scriptures which are quoted thousands of times in Gurbani?  What political gain is there?  Is it possible for truth to become less truth?  Is it possible for a son to become less a son if he has a brother?  Is it possible for the richness of Punjabi Sikh heritage to be diminished by embracing a tolerant world-view which accepts the equality of Hindu heritage?  Are Buddhists any less rich in their identity and heritage to say they are part of sanatan Dharma?  And would it even be believable to accept that they are not?  If Buddhists cannot lose themselves, neither can Sikhs.  All you will do is gain broader understanding and beautiful insights into the ancient Sanskrit concepts in Gurbani.  What possible identity is being saved by rejecting such beautiful teachings as found in Bhagavad-Gita?  It makes no logical sense to hear repeatedly how inferior Hindu religion is, and then you go read Vedas and Puranas and Bhagavad-Gita and it's breathtakingly beautiful.  Why can't Sikhs have an identity which includes and accepts Vedas when Gurbani says:


ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥ 
akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||
In the Word, God established the three worlds.  

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ 
akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||
Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.  

ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ 
akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||
From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas. 

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥ 
akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||
From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥ 
akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||
From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt. 

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥ 
akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||
From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.

ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ ॥ 
dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa ||
In the visible universe, the Word is seen. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਨਿਰਲੇਪਾ ॥੫੪॥ 
naanak paarabreham niralaepaa ||54||
O Nanak, the Supreme Lord God remains unattached and untouched. ||54||
~SGGS Ji p. 261
​


The whole world is mine.  My Beloved is One with the whole world.  Every saint of every tradition is my beloved.  Every truth of every tradition is my beloved.  Every beautiful thing is my beloved.  This is my treasure.  I'm tired of narrow viewpoints and ignorant political authority.  I'm tired of being ostracized and rejected by the "spiritual people."  I can't go back in that narrow box.   There's no joy in not being honest with the truth which has no political aspirations, and is totally free from that bondage.  Like Sikh80 writes, just think of the Om, the Oneness, and you immediately feel shanti.  You feel at peace with everything that is.  And you just want to bless everything.  How can that be a wrong path?


"With scorn I built a wall excluding undesirables,
and I shut in with God and reread all my Bibles.
I had misgivings though, and so one day in doubt,
I climbed my wall to see all the vile things I had shut out.
T'was there amidst outcastes I saw the Lord of all.
The God I thought I had confined behind my wall."
~Perry Tanksley​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

Thanks Harjas ji for your valuable contribution for the advancement of thread. It is not my fault if the other members do not take it in a spirit in which it was intended.

I can paste many lines that advocates gurus as the Creator.Even the statements of the fellow members can be quoted.So what is wrong in admitting that we have heavily borrowed from other philosophies and most of it has come from the Hinduism or Vedant. Gurus themselves have stated at many places that Lord krishna was the creator.This may not be stated so loudly but it could not have been done in a manner better than this.

Kindly read the following and we shall come to know how heavily we have drawn from so called hinduism.Gurus have also admitted  Lord  Krishna as the creator.There seems to be semblance as to what Harjas ji has stated and as to what sikhism stands today.

ਮਾਰੂ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
Mārū mehlā 5. 
Maaroo, Fifth Mehl: 

ਅਚੁਤ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ  ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ  ॥ 
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmėsur anṯarjāmī. 
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. 

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ  ਦਾਮੋਦਰ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ॥ 
Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su*āmī. 
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master. 

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ  ਗੋਵਰਧਨ  ਧਾਰੀ  ਮੁਰਲੀ  ਮਨੋਹਰ  ਹਰਿ  ਰੰਗਾ  ॥੧॥ 
Rikẖīkės govarḏẖan ḏẖārī murlī manohar har rangā. ||1|| 
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1|| [Lord Krishna]

ਮੋਹਨ  ਮਾਧਵ  ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ  ਮੁਰਾਰੇ  ॥ 
Mohan māḏẖav krisan murārė. 
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego. 

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ  ਹਰਿ  ਜੀਉ  ਅਸੁਰ  ਸੰਘਾਰੇ  ॥ 
Jagḏīsur har jī*o asur sangẖārė. 
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons. 

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ  ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ  ਠਾਕੁਰ  ਘਟ  ਘਟ  ਵਾਸੀ  ਹੈ  ਸੰਗਾ  ॥੨॥ 
Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. ||2|| 
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2|| 

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ  ਈਸ  ਨਰਸਿੰਘ  ਨਾਰਾਇਣ  ॥ 
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā*iṇ. 
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God. 

ਦਾੜਾ  ਅਗ੍ਰੇ  ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ  ਧਰਾਇਣ  ॥ 
Ḏāṛā agrė paritham ḏẖarā*iṇ. 
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. 

ਬਾਵਨ  ਰੂਪੁ  ਕੀਆ  ਤੁਧੁ  ਕਰਤੇ  ਸਭ  ਹੀ  ਸੇਤੀ  ਹੈ  ਚੰਗਾ  ॥੩॥ 
Bāvan rūp kī*ā ṯuḏẖ karṯė sabẖ hī sėṯī hai cẖanga. ||3|| 
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3|| 

ਸ੍ਰੀ  ਰਾਮਚੰਦ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਰੂਪੁ  ਨ  ਰੇਖਿਆ  ॥ 
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā. 
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. 

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ  ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ  ਦਰਸਿ  ਅਨੂਪਿਆ  ॥ 
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā. 
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. [Lord Krishna]

ਸਹਸ  ਨੇਤ੍ਰ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਹੈ  ਸਹਸਾ  ਇਕੁ  ਦਾਤਾ  ਸਭ  ਹੈ  ਮੰਗਾ  ॥੪॥ 
Sahas nėṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4|| 
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| 

ਭਗਤਿ  ਵਛਲੁ  ਅਨਾਥਹ  ਨਾਥੇ  ॥ 
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthė. 
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. 

ਗੋਪੀ  ਨਾਥੁ  ਸਗਲ  ਹੈ  ਸਾਥੇ  ॥ 
Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthė. 
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. [Lord Krishna : From Yadav  clan]

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ  ਨਿਰੰਜਨ  ਦਾਤੇ  ਬਰਨਿ  ਨ  ਸਾਕਉ  ਗੁਣ  ਅੰਗਾ  ॥੫॥ 
Bāsuḏėv niranjan ḏāṯė baran na sāka*o guṇ angā. ||5|| 
O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5|| 

ਮੁਕੰਦ  ਮਨੋਹਰ  ਲਖਮੀ  ਨਾਰਾਇਣ  ॥ 
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā*iṇ. 
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God. 

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ  ਲਜਾ  ਨਿਵਾਰਿ  ਉਧਾਰਣ  ॥ 
Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ. 
Savior of Dropadi's honor. 
[lord Krishna]
ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਕੰਤੂਹਲ  ਅਨਦ  ਬਿਨੋਦੀ  ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ  ॥੬॥ 
Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6|| 
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| 
 [Krishna]
ਅਮੋਘ  ਦਰਸਨ  ਆਜੂਨੀ  ਸੰਭਉ  ॥ 
Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa*o. 
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent. 

ਅਕਾਲ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਕਦੇ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਖਉ  ॥ 
Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏė nāhī kẖa*o. 
His form is undying; it is never destroyed. 

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ  ਅਬਿਗਤ  ਅਗੋਚਰ  ਸਭੁ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਤੁਝ  ਹੀ  ਹੈ  ਲਗਾ  ॥੭॥ 
Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7|| 
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7|| 

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ  ਬੈਕੁੰਠ  ਕੇ  ਵਾਸੀ  ॥ 
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ kė vāsī. 
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven. 

ਮਛੁ  ਕਛੁ  ਕੂਰਮੁ  ਆਗਿਆ  ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ  ॥ 
Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi*ā a*uṯrāsī. 
 By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise. 

ਕੇਸਵ  ਚਲਤ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਨਿਰਾਲੇ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਲੋੜਹਿ  ਸੋ  ਹੋਇਗਾ  ॥੮॥ 
Kėsav cẖalaṯ karahi nirālė kīṯā loṛeh so ho*igā. ||8|| 
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| 

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ  ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ  ਸਮਾਇਆ  ॥ 
Nirāhārī nirvair samā*i*ā. 
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading. 

ਧਾਰਿ  ਖੇਲੁ  ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ  ਕਹਾਇਆ  ॥ 
Ḏẖār kẖėl cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā*i*ā. 
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord. 
[Vishnu and Krishna]
ਸਾਵਲ  ਸੁੰਦਰ  ਰੂਪ  ਬਣਾਵਹਿ  ਬੇਣੁ  ਸੁਨਤ  ਸਭ  ਮੋਹੈਗਾ  ॥੯॥ 
Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāveh bėṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. ||9|| 
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| 
[Lord assumed the format of Krishna]
ਬਨਮਾਲਾ  ਬਿਭੂਖਨ  ਕਮਲ  ਨੈਨ  ॥ 
Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain. 
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes. 

ਸੁੰਦਰ  ਕੁੰਡਲ  ਮੁਕਟ  ਬੈਨ  ॥ 
Sunḏar kundal mukat bain. 
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. 
[Lord Krishna]
ਸੰਖ  ਚਕ੍ਰ  ਗਦਾ  ਹੈ  ਧਾਰੀ  ਮਹਾ  ਸਾਰਥੀ  ਸਤਸੰਗਾ  ॥੧੦॥ 
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10|| 
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| 
[Lord Krishna]
ਪੀਤ  ਪੀਤੰਬਰ  ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ  ਧਣੀ  ॥ 
Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī. 
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds. 
[Lord Krishna]
ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ  ਗੋਪਾਲੁ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਭਣੀ  ॥ 
Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī. 
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name. 

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ  ਭਗਵਾਨ  ਬੀਠੁਲਾ  ਮੈ  ਗਣਤ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ਸਰਬੰਗਾ  ॥੧੧॥ 
Sāringḏẖar bẖagvān bīṯẖulā mai gaṇaṯ na āvai sarbangā. ||11|| 
The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11|| 
[Lord Krishna being referred to]
ਨਿਹਕੰਟਕੁ  ਨਿਹਕੇਵਲੁ  ਕਹੀਐ  ॥ 
Nihkantak nihkėval kahī*ai. 
He is said to be free of anguish, and absolutely immaculate. 

ਧਨੰਜੈ  ਜਲਿ  ਥਲਿ  ਹੈ  ਮਹੀਐ  ॥ 
Ḏẖananjai jal thal hai mahī*ai. 
The Lord of prosperity, pervading the water, the land and the sky.


_Kindly seee the next page yourself @ ang 1083...........]_


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 19, 2008)

I will be spending days to read this thread...


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Hey cunuck....

yes, Dear you should always . I do not know your age. 
I am 28 and have just started sikhi but am amazed as to how the elders mock at you when you ask something. 
Net result, you run to allied literature. 
Sikhism has a long way to go. My english is poor and expression is hopeless but I carry on. 
You should also do the same. Investigate everything and remember GOd is always one. Sikh's God cannot be different from the God of Muslims or Hindus.

It is all but understanding that matters. 


Rest are the different routes prescribed by saints so that there is no traffic congestion on one particular route when we walk on the road that leads us to HIS home deep down the meadows..........where the solitary reaper reaps the filed........where the light of the sun  sits on the bench outside His house and the birds do not chirp lest he be angry and the loin remains depressed lest the cows may be appreciated by the Hindus.....and Shivas and Brahmas stand up on the benches........as they are Hindus God and Goddess.....and Chitra Gupt does not know as he is appointed by Both of them i.e the God of Hindus and the Akaal purukh....

But then it matters a little for I know nothing except that there is some energy that is maintaining the balance in this universe. The nature is kept in balance. 

The energy ,that controls this nature and the human activities sees that there is no excursions between the two ,is GOD ,
..... the essence.....Men have the subtle thing called as soul and that can know this. 
Soul is Akaal purukh itself.........[gurbani.]

Einsteins reached the truth  e=mc^^2
Shiva and shakti......


Love.
*






ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਪਾਇਆ  ॥ 
गुर परसादी पाइआ ॥ 
Gur parsādī pā*i*ā. 
By Guru's Grace, I have found God._ [who is Guru and who is god aad ji_]

ਤਿਥੈ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਮੋਹੁ  ਚੁਕਾਇਆ  ॥ 
तिथै माइआ मोहु चुकाइआ ॥ 
Ŧithai mā*i*ā moh cẖukā*i*ā. 
By His Grace, I have shed emotional attachment to Maya. 

ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਕਰਿ  ਕੈ  ਆਪਣੀ  ਆਪੇ  ਲਏ  ਸਮਾਇ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੨੧॥ 
किरपा करि कै आपणी आपे लए समाइ जीउ ॥२१॥ 
Kirpā kar kai āpṇī āpė la*ė samā*ė jī*o. ||21|| 
Showering His Mercy, He has blended me into Himself. ||21|| 

ਗੋਪੀ  ਨੈ  ਗੋਆਲੀਆ  ॥ 
गोपी नै गोआलीआ ॥ 
Gopī nai go*ālī*ā. 
You are the Gopis, the milk-maids of Krishna; You are the sacred river Jamunaa; You are Krishna, the herdsman. 

ਤੁਧੁ  ਆਪੇ  ਗੋਇ  ਉਠਾਲੀਆ  ॥ 
तुधु आपे गोइ उठालीआ ॥ 
Ŧuḏẖ āpė go*ė uṯẖālī*ā. 
You Yourself support the world. 

ਹੁਕਮੀ  ਭਾਂਡੇ  ਸਾਜਿਆ  ਤੂੰ  ਆਪੇ  ਭੰਨਿ  ਸਵਾਰਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੨੨॥ 
हुकमी भांडे साजिआ तूं आपे भंनि सवारि जीउ ॥२२॥ 
Hukmī bẖāŉdė sāji*ā ṯūŉ āpė bẖann savār jī*o. ||22|| 
By Your Command, human beings are fashioned. You Yourself embellish them, and then again destroy them. ||22|| 

ਜਿਨ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਿਉ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਲਾਇਆ  ॥ 
जिन सतिगुर सिउ चितु लाइआ ॥ 
Jin saṯgur si*o cẖiṯ lā*i*ā. 
Those who have focused their consciousness on the True Guru, 

ਤਿਨੀ  ਦੂਜਾ  ਭਾਉ  ਚੁਕਾਇਆ  ॥ 
तिनी दूजा भाउ चुकाइआ ॥ 
Ŧinī ḏūjā bẖā*o cẖukā*i*ā. 
have rid themselves of the love of duality. 

ਨਿਰਮਲ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਤਿਨ  ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਆ  ਓਇ  ਚਲੇ  ਜਨਮੁ  ਸਵਾਰਿ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੨੩॥ 
निरमल जोति तिन प्राणीआ ओइ चले जनमु सवारि जीउ ॥२३॥ 
Nirmal joṯ ṯin parāṇī*ā o*ė cẖalė janam savār jī*o. ||23|| 
The light of those mortal beings is immaculate. They depart after redeeming their lives. ||23|| 

ਤੇਰੀਆ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਦਾ  ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ  ॥ 
तेरीआ सदा सदा चंगिआईआ ॥ 
Ŧėrī*ā saḏā saḏā cẖang*ā*ī*ā. 
Your Goodness, I forever, 

ਮੈ  ਰਾਤਿ  ਦਿਹੈ  ਵਡਿਆਈਆਂ  ॥ 
मै राति दिहै वडिआईआं ॥ 
Mai rāṯ ḏihai vadi*ā*ī*āŉ. 
admire by night and day. 
* 

*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

Chand dino key Mehmaan hein Hum Adam jaat key
Rab Milta Nahin..   .................................................Khuda Bolta nahin...
Kyun Hum Larein.....................................................Bin Baat key.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

_Kyon tun Milta  Nahin..
Kyon ton dikhta nahin._.

_Jo bhe hoon Tera hoon..
Ab Bula ley mujhey_

*..yeh ardas hey ..*

_tujhko milunga ...ye merie aas hey..Rab hey ya khuda hey..ye teri Marzi hey.._

*Tera Banda hoon...*

_Na ye meeeri marzi thi ..na meri marzi hey.._

Ye ..teri khudgarzi thi..ye..teri kudgarzi hey.

_Wah Re Khuda.Khoob dekhi khudai Teri ..Khoob dekhi khudai teri...._

Duniya bhe teri  wah wah bhe teri.......


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*e=mc^^ 2

aj mein tera banda haan tey toon khuda hein...

Kal mein khuda ve ho sakda haan..............Rab janay 1000 juni tey 360 yugan dey baad....


Par mein phir ve tera khidmatgaar hunga...ki toon aj te khuda hain....
Khuda karay ke toon hamesha he khuda rahein...


Wjkk WjkF
[Rabba sub kujh vikha dey par 1984 dey dange na vekhain.......]

*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Toon mera karajgaar tha....aur rahega.....Tera hukum mana....kuch to karajgar rahega...


Tonay chaha ke paida ......Ho...
so hua....

kuch to karjgaar rahega...
Ya  b,ut[statue]   he tha..
 aur bana rahega...*




*Wah rey teri khudai..
Tughe he pasand na aye.....
aur tonay duniya banai..*

*Ek khel samajh kar...
Ya majak samajh kar..


Tooon mera karajgaar hey aur so rahega.
[84 ke dange no karva deo phir, pehle bach gaya tha ab na bachaio mughe........... Brahma or krishna bhe ro parenge... Akaal purukh to sab ka hey....woh keon royega.....Bau thagni tooon  maya...Meray maaan aur baap ko kha gaye tooon  ...ek lavaris laash ko ....samjha gaye toon.]
*


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Respected aad ji,
> 
> I sincerely feel sorry if I seemed  the way you have stated. Kindly let the words that are the culprits be taken as withdrawn as I do not know exactly that has caused anguish. My apologies again. I am a sikh and hence Pooja is just the same as Paath to me.
> 
> I Seek your forgiveness again.*



Sikh80 ji

No need to feel sorry. Let me give two examples to make the point that my focus was not on pooja but on the translations.

In the verse below the word Hindu, hindhoo,  ਹਿੰਦੂ  is clearly stated in Gurbani. The word Muslim is not, but rather thurak (Turk) is substituted.  You can go back re-read my understanding of why thurak was used instead musalamaan if it is important. 

ਬੁਤ ਪੂਜਿ ਪੂਜਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਏ ਤੁਰਕ ਮੂਏ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਈ ॥
buth pooj pooj hindhoo mooeae thurak mooeae sir naaee ||
Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads.


In this verse the word ਹਿੰਦੂ  does not appear at all. And hindhoo is not in the transliteration either. So what is the word Hindu doing in the English translation? Why is it there as "Hindu?"

ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
                                  haj kaabai jaao n theerathh poojaa ||
                                                  I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.


My understanding: The translator put it there to clarify that the pooja (sacred shrines also the translator's translation) were Hindu shrines. That is it! 

Nothing at all to do with my appreciation of Punjabi, Hindi or Urdu. I am only wondering why you have such strong feelings about this one remark.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

Yes, 
I am here and and shall take some time to consume that you have written .
Bear with me pl.


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2008)

No problem Sikh80 ji. My brothers are very important to me.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Respected aad ji,

I just crib that I am not rich enough to bring out a new commentary on SGGS ji.  I am in touch with some sikh publishers. But not very hopeful.You are always right but get angry too soon and make it known also. Cheers!!!!

Regards.


*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Thou art diplomatic. But Have a look at the following:
Geeta about God
* "_The unreal has no being and the real has no non-being; and the truth about both has also been seen by men who know the reality_?" [/FONT]
 [/FONT]
_The unreal has no existence while the real is never non-existent. [/FONT]_


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2008)

:}8-:


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Respected aad ji,

U r there as a guest and I can smell it.
our relationship is of prime significance and that is all that matters rest is all a follow up.
warm regards.

* Krishn promises in verses 20-22 of Chapter 9 : [/FONT]
 [/FONT]
"_Men who do the pious deeds enjoined by the three Ved, who have tasted nectar and freed themselves from sin, and who wish for heavenly existence through worshipping me by yagya, go to heaven and enjoy godly pleasures for their virtuous acts._" [/FONT]


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

o*h guest,
y don'y u write something?


*There is also the suggestion here that the one who goes beyond the Ved, by knowing God, is a Brahmin. So, although the usefulness of the Ved does come' to an end for worshippers of the Brahmin class, there is no doubt about their utility for others. Krishn proclaims in the twenty-eighth verse of Chapter 8 that after having secured knowledge of the essence of God, the yogi goes beyond the rewards of Vedic scriptural study, sacrificial rites, penance, and charity, and thus attains to absolution. [/FONT]


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Guest means some one on the Board and peeping behinds the curtain.

*  [/FONT]
Material prosperity is only an incidental concern of the Geeta and it is in this respect that it is different from THE VED. There are numerous allusions to them in the Geeta, but the sacred books of the Ved are altogether only milestones. 

The seeker has no use for them after he has reached his destination. 

So Arjun is prompted, in the forty-fifth verse of Chapter 2, that since all the books of the Ved provide illumination only within the limits of the three properties of nature, he should rise above them, liberate himself from the incongruities of joy and grief, rest on that which is constant, and be equally indifferent towards the acquisition of what he does not have and the protection of what he has, so as to devote himself intently to the Self within. 


[/FONT]


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## Sikh80 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Khuda teri kudrat khudai ni hoti 
to
maint ye bataine banai naan hoti....










Respond if U wish.

*


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Respected aad ji,
> 
> U r there as a guest and I can smell it.
> our relationship is of prime significance and that is all that matters rest is all a follow up.
> ...



Veer jio,

I don't understand what you mean as _U r there as a guest and I can smell it --_ seriously I don't know. Please explain.  What place is "there" ? And don't tempt me on because I am in a very silly mood today.

This is my close associate :}8-:. His name is _krod. _And he is being very silly too. It is the hot weather and lack of rain. Enough for now! Later when things calm down I will tackle one of the shabads about the spirituality of references to Hindu's in Gurbani. Warm regards,

Antonia


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 19, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

nice thread
:yes:


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## dalsingh (Jul 19, 2008)

Is Sikhism an offshoot of Hinduism?

Is Christianity an offshoot of Judaism?

Is Islam an offshoot of Judaism?



I would contend that Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism. Firstly many Sikhs would find that offensive and people shouldn't ignore the fact that the Sikh Guru's did much to demarcate Sikhism from Hinduism. Because SOME common ground may exist between the two, it hardly constitutes being an offshoot now.

One could take such an argument and say Sikhism is an offshoot of Sufi believe, if we take this line.

The belief in ONE God, who is beyond all Hindu schemes of reincarnation, birth, death etc. should be enough to answer this.

Sikhism is an independent way of life in my eyes, as I imagine it is for the vast majority who call themselves Sikh.

I have nothing against Hinduism myself btw.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 20, 2008)

> The belief in ONE God, who is beyond all Hindu schemes of reincarnation, birth, death etc. should be enough to answer this.


Sikhism doesn't believe in One God in any Abrahamic monotheistic sense.  That is an interpretation which has been imposed on Sikhism.  The definition of the One God is based on Upanishadic definitions of nirguna and sarguna and all-pervading Oneness which encompasses all creation in a pantheistic sense.

Sikhism, as do the Upanishads, believes that the ultimate reality is One, and hence the truest manifestation of God is nirguna, which is an all-pervading Oneness.  The very structure of Ek Omkar doesn't imply One God.  It states directly out of the Oneness, nirguna, has created "kar" the Trimurti, of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh, and out of that all creation including three gunas and maya, and all this is subsumed by the Ek, the Oneness.  That is the Gurbani concept of God.  It has no relationship to a "One God" such as defined by Christiantiy, Judaism or Islam which would distinguish from Hindu definitions.  In fact, it is taken directly from the Hindu definitions.  The Upanishads do not say the demi-gods are the ultimate, all say the primal Oneness, nirguna is the ultimate and originator.  There is no "Hindu scheme" of reincarnation which is taught or defined any differently than in Gurbani.  In fact, it is evident that Gurbani concepts of reincarnation are originally found in Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas.  So, if the teachings line up as identical... where is the presumed difference?  You say Sufism could be a valid influence on Sikhism,  Yet, taking away the Vaishnav bhakti and Shavite Nath influences on Sufism, we have Islam.  And where in Gurbani do you find any parallel Islamic teachings?  They are not there.  Equally, if you replace the concepts of Vaishnava Bhakti, Naam jap, Shaivite Nath influences of chakras you have this same parallel between Gurbani and the originating Vedic, Upanishadic and Puranic sources.  Moreover you can add Vaishnavist reform movements which introduced breakdown of caste distinctions to welcome low-caste saints as spiritual equals and even langar and military acharas who fought against Brahmin elitism, Moghul oppression and British colonialism, and really ask just how different Sikhism really is historically from these roots.


ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.
~SGGS Ji p. 754​


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||

ਕਾਇਆ ਸੋਧਿ ਤਰੈ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਆਤਮ ਤਤੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੧੩॥ 
kaaeiaa sodhh tharai bhav saagar aatham thath veechaaree ||13||
One who purifies his body, crosses over the terrifying world-ocean; he contemplates the essence of his own soul. ||13||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​



ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥ 
ouankaar brehamaa outhapath ||
From Ongkaar, the One Universal Creator God, Brahma was created.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਚਿਤਿ ॥ 
ouankaar keeaa jin chith ||
He kept Ongkaar in his consciousness.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸੈਲ ਜੁਗ ਭਏ ॥ 
ouankaar sail jug bheae ||
From Ongkaar, the mountains and the ages were created.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਨਿਰਮਏ ॥ 
ouankaar baedh nirameae ||
Ongkaar created the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 929​


ਅਗਨਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੁੰਨੇ ਕਲਾ ਰਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥ 
agan paanee jeeo joth thumaaree sunnae kalaa rehaaeidhaa ||2||
Your Light pervades fire, water and souls; Your Power rests in the Primal Void. ||2||  

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ 
sunnahu brehamaa bisan mehaes oupaaeae ||
From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.  

ਸੁੰਨੇ ਵਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਸਬਾਏ ॥ 
sunnae varathae jug sabaaeae ||
This Primal Void is pervasive throughout all the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 1037​



ਵਰਨ ਰੂਪ ਵਰਤਹਿ ਸਭ ਤੇਰੇ ॥ 
varan roop varathehi sabh thaerae ||
In all colors and forms, You are pervading.  

ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਫੇਰ ਪਵਹਿ ਘਣੇਰੇ ॥ 
mar mar janmehi faer pavehi ghanaerae ||
People die over and over again; they are re-born, and make their rounds on the wheel of reincarnation.
~SGGS Ji p. 120​


ਜੈਸਾ ਸਾ ਤੈਸਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥ 
jaisaa saa thaisaa dhrisattaaeiaa ||
As God is, so does He appear;  

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
apunae kaaraj mehi aap samaaeiaa ||
in His Own creation, He Himself is pervading. 

ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੀਝਿਆ ॥ 
sodhhath sodhhath sodhhath seejhiaa ||
Searching, searching, searching, and finally, success!

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਬੂਝਿਆ ॥ 
gur prasaadh thath sabh boojhiaa ||
By Guru's Grace, the essence of all reality is understood. 

ਜਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਬ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਮੂਲੁ ॥ 
jab dhaekho thab sabh kishh mool ||
Wherever I look, there I see Him, at the root of all things. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਸੂਖਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥੫॥ 
naanak so sookham soee asathhool ||5||
O Nanak, He is the subtle, and He is also the manifest. ||5||  

ਨਹ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਨਮੈ ਨਹ ਕਿਛੁ ਮਰੈ ॥ 
neh kishh janamai neh kishh marai ||
Nothing is born, and nothing dies. 

ਆਪਨ ਚਲਿਤੁ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕਰੈ ॥ 
aapan chalith aap hee karai ||
He Himself stages His own drama.
~SGGS Ji p. 281​



ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab thaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 1350​



Now, analyze the previous tuuks of Gurbani in relation to this:



> "The Brahman attained by those who go by the path of the gods (Devayana) cannot be the Supreme Brahman (Nirguna Brahman). They attain only the Saguna Brahman. Para Brahman is all-pervading. He is the Inner Self of all. He cannot be attained as He is the Innermost Self of everyone." ~Brahma Sutras 7-11




There is no contradiction whatsoever between Sikh teachings found in Gurbani, and Hindu definitions and concepts found in Vedic scriptures.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

*There is also the suggestion here that Hindus believe in many Gods.It is incorrect.The one who goes beyond the Ved, by knowing God, is a Brahmin. 



Although the usefulness of the Ved does come' to an end for worshippers of the Brahmin class, there is no doubt about their utility for others. Krishn proclaims in the twenty eighth verse of Chapter 8 that after having secured knowledge of the essence of God, the yogi goes beyond the rewards of Vedic scriptural study.It is pointed out in Chapter 15, he who knows God, is a knower of the Ved. *

* According to the Geeta there is only ONE GOD.


You may go through the following that summarizes the position of Gods as per one commentator of Geeta. 

 Demi Gods and Godesses
[/FONT]* *The whole pantheon of lesser gods and goddesses worshipped by Hindus is a stark reminder of how the spirit of dharm gets ignored and the letter predominates, giving rise to countless perversions. Since the ordained task is an internal process of the mind and senses, how fitting is it to build external places of worship such as temples and mosques, and to adore idols of symbolic representations of gods and goddesses? Ideally Hindus are followers of the eternal truths of Sanatan Dharm- values and virtues that awaken the immutable, eternal God within man's heart and thus enable him to realize his Self. Pursuing and delving deep into eternal truths, their forebears had disseminated their insights add revelations all over the world. Irrespective of the part of the earth he hails from, one who treads the path of reality is essentially a believer in the eternal truth, Sanatan Dharm. Overridden by desire, however, Hindus have gradually lost sight of reality and become victims of a host of misconceptions. Krishn emphatically warns Arjun that there are no entities like gods. Whatever be the power a man devotes himself to, it is God who stands behind the object of his adoration to reward him. It is God who sustains all worship, for he is all-pervading. Truly, therefore, the worship of other gods is unlawful and its fruits are perishable. Only those ignorant men whose minds have been held to ransom by desire worship other gods and their objects of worship vary according to their native inclinations. While gods are the object of adoration by good and virtuous men, demons and yaksh are worshipped by those who are given to passion and moral blindness, ghosts and spirits are venerated by men of ignorance. Many of these worshippers even subject themselves to severe and grievous austerities. But, as Krishn enlightens Arjun, all such worshippers of improper objects impair not only. their physical beings but also God who dwells within them. Such worshippers should, therefore, be deemed as surely possessed of an unrighteous, evil disposition. Since God abides in the hearts of all beings, it is binding on everyone that he takes refuge in him alone. The true place of worship is, therefore, not external but within the realm of heart. Yet people are drawn towards and worship even such unworthy objects as rock, water, mere structures of brick and mortar, and a host of inferior divinities.* 


*Kindly do not be misled by the terms like 'sanatan' ,it means eternal-ever truth.
Like we say God is saibahung and self existent;the same type of concept is reflected here.

There is one God in mainstream Hinduism.
Demigod and Goddess in Bani

Incidently bani also refers to them as Guru....

* guru eIsru guru gorKu brmw guru pwrbqI mweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
*The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi


 If Dhur ki Bani admits the demi Gods as Gurus what would be the state of seekers and learners.One cannot discard that it is only a metaphorical use.

If that be so it is high time that SGPC should start issuing clarifications in this regard without disturbing the composition of Granth sahib and let that be maintained in the present form.

As per some post it is also not clear if the Granth that we consider as the Granth is the real Granth or is only a copy of the original.
 [/FONT]**
What is required
Unless what the Guru states is  clear these kinds of things shall be asked by many.
I may be prone to  accept the logic that it is metaphorical use. But I have tried to get an answer to this question at many sites but I have not been replied satisfactorily so far. 

On one Hand we have Mool Mantra on second hand we have Guru stating that He is the creator HIMSELF. Add to this the confusion caused by the inclusion of Hindus God and Goddesses in Bani and that also in very specific and pointed terms.

Are Gurus Really Gods; if so we all shall have the concept of demi gods in sikhism and it shall fuel up to that sikhi is a faith not understood by many as it cannot be understood.

 If after spending one complete year I do not understand sikhism/Bani, I feel that I am not worthy of it and shall have to learn from some one who runs school in Bani like it is done in US. 


Bhul Chuk Mauf 



Today's hukumnama

*      Meeting the Guru, I have found my Beloved Lord. I have made this body  and mind a sacrifice, a sacrificial offering to the Lord. Dedicating my body  and mind, I have crossed over the terrifying world-ocean, and shaken off the  fear of death. Drinking in the Ambrosial Nectar, I have become immortal; my  comings and goings have ceased. I have found that home of celestial Samaadhi;  the Name of the Lord is my only Support. Says Nanak, I enjoy peace and  pleasure; I bow in reverence to the Perfect Guru. || 1 || Listen, O my friend  and companion  the Guru has given the Mantra of the Shabad, the True Word of  God. Meditating on this True Shabad, I sing the songs of joy, and my mind is  rid of anxiety. I have found that God, who never leaves; forever and ever, He  sits with me. One who is pleasing to God receives true honor. The Lord God  automatically blesses him with wealth. Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to such a  humble being. O Lord, You bless all with Your bountiful blessings. || 2 || When  it pleases You, then I am satisfied and satiated. My mind is soothed and  calmed, and all my thirst is quenched. My mind is soothed and calmed, the  burning has ceased, and I have found all sorts of treasures. All the Sikhs and  servants partake of them; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. I have become  fearless, imbued with the Love of my Lord and Master; I have shaken off the  fear of death. Slave Nanak, Your humble servant, lovingly embraces Your  meditation; O Lord, please be with me always. || 3 || My hopes and desires have  been fulfilled, O my Lord. I am worthless, without virtue; all virtues are  Yours, O Lord. All virtues are Yours, O my Lord and Master; with what mouth  should I praise You? You did not consider my merits and demerits; you forgave  me in an instant. I have obtained the nine treasures, congratulations are  pouring in, and the unstruck melody resounds. Says Nanak, I have found my  Husband Lord within my own home, and all my anxiety is forgotten. || 4 || 1 ||      

Sunday, 5th Saawan (Samvat 540 Nanakshahi)
*
Who is Guru here and who is Lord here.??????

*


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## Astroboy (Jul 20, 2008)

Is Sikhism an offshoot of Hunduism ?
Sikhism is what was taught in original Hinduism. But present Hinduism is far off its original stand. Here is a story I want to share which clarifies that Sikhism is Original Hindusim (you may choose to read it with a pinch of salt):-

WHEN MASTERS COME to the World and see its condition, great pity swells in their hearts. They wonder, "What is the world doing?" for they can stand aside from the activities of worldliness, and they see that truth is being ignored and untrue things are accepted as the truth. When a lie is repeated ten times or more, people begin to accept it as being true: men drift away into iniquity just through witnessing the bad actions of others.
  There is a certain story which is illustrative of how easily a man can be influenced and blindly follow the lead of others. A farmer was returning home from his fields with his head uncovered, perspiring, on account of the hot season. According to tradition in those days, going with one's head uncovered showed that something tragic had happened, like a death, etc. So when the farmer's family saw him approaching the house with a bare head, perspiring, and with disheveled hair, they jumped to the conclusion that someone had died, and immediately commenced lamenting and beating their breasts in the usual customary manner. The farmer saw his relatives mourning, and without hesitation joined in the demonstration of woe. But after a short time, his curiosity got the better of him and he asked someone, "Can you tell me who has died?" The person was astounded and explained that, seeing his bare head, they had thought the farmer had brought news of death.
  This story is very descriptive of the world's condition. Man is easily influenced, and does not turn his head in the direction of the Truth. Farid Sahib says, "The whole world is sounding, and you are also dancing with it." Without thinking for themselves, people agree or go along with anything. Do you know anyone who does not? "He does not become the echo, on whom the hand of Allah rests." These are God's children, who look to the Truth, and can see what is really happening. They do not drift, nor do they echo along with the worldly people, but they try to discover what the truth is behind everything. So who is wise in this world? He who searches for the why and the wherefore of things, thereby escaping the pitfalls. For those who play along with the world's tune and follow that tune, only unhappiness can result. The Masters have no selfish motives, so they speak the truth only - and that with love.
  In India, Divali Day (the Indian festival of lights) is celebrated by lighting candles. The people usually gamble, and if you ask them why, they will tell you that by gambling on that day our births and deaths will cease. There is a kind of gambling that finishes up the incarnations, but what kind of gambling it is, very few really know. The true gambling lies in sacrificing all other things - body and its environments - for the purpose of enkindling the Light within. Being ignorant of the true gambling, they started outer gambling instead; and the people blindly follow them, without going into the truth of it. He who will see the Light within withdraws his attention from the outgoing faculties and outer objects. Even in the field of spiritual matters, everyone is singing the name of God on top notes - no one stops to think exactly what those names stand for. Every religion contains the same basic teachings in the various languages: that is, in Naam, Word, etc., lies salvation, and not in any other teaching. But unfortunately people follow the outer practice of repetition of names of God and lighting candles, considering it to be the beginning and the end.
  All religions encourage the reading of holy scriptures - that is to understand the subject, the theory; it is not necessary to make a lot of noise by singing and playing tunes to the words. The words are there to give thought to the subject. Very few will think on the words of the hymn, or what they denote. People imagine that merely reading out the words, parrot-like, is enough. Sometimes they shout the words at the tops of their voices, and even clap the hands and read - the more noise, the happier they are. But if the words were read like this for one hundred years without a pause, it would be of little avail. In the Shrimad Bhagavat it says that God cannot be realized just by reading the Vedas. Guru Nanak has said, "To read year by year, month by month, with intense yearning while the breath lasts; O Nanak, this avails nothing unless the written word is lived." Reading alone is valueless; the teaching must be followed.
  The greatest aspiration of human life is to realize God: the God which expressed Himself into Creation, the Maker of Khand and Brahmand (astral and causal planes), the Sustainer of all things. In the language of the Saints, that God expressed is called Naam, through which they say the soul can gain salvation, irrespective of religion. The Ultimate or Absolute Lord is Nameless, but that which came into expression is called Naam, or Shabd, or Word - the God-into-Expression Power, which is not separate from His creation. "World is the room of Truth, and Truth resides therein." If the scriptures are read for long enough, it may be possible to gain some power of concentration and thereby perform small "miracles"; but there is no true awareness in this.
  Read one hymn only and try to understand it thoroughly. Get the full meaning of the words, for those words have been spoken by one who has realized the Truth. "Listen to the Master's true words; He speaks of what he sees." And to have the true import of what is written, one should get the interpretation from someone who has taken at least one step toward the Truth. Otherwise, the learned people will present the subject from an intellectual level, each with a different explanation. This is why so many different schools of thought have been established in the world. Reading the scriptures is like the mother's lap to a child; just the beginning of understanding that which they give out.
  I was born in a Sikh family, and as a small boy I would read the holy Granth Sahib. I would read one hymn only, and write it down as a day's lesson. All day I would think on the words, and try to discover their meaning. No doubt the reservoir of the heart must be emptied, but reading only with the tongue, while the mind is still wrapped in the world, has no value. However, I would say that reading the holy words is good, though not doing anything; but to read, think, understand, and finally have contact with the God mentioned therein will bring salvation. Neither following customs nor the performance of rituals brings salvation - the Lord can only be realized by coming in contact with that for which these customs and rituals stand.
  The Masters give accounts in the books of their experiences: the bliss they enjoyed when they came in contact with God, the things that helped them on the way, and what was detrimental. True understanding of the writings will naturally encourage one to discard those traits which are stopping progress, and to adopt those qualities which serve to increase it. Outer actions of devotion are not rewarding where the subject of Spirituality is concerned. There have always been Masters of Truth in the world, who give some experience, a contact with the Truth, by withdrawing the attention and raising it above senses and outgoing faculties. "While the senses are not controlled, the mind and intellect not stilled, the soul cannot open the inner eye to see the Manifestation of God."
  Now, what about prayer and rites? The purpose behind them is to develop faith and devotion. The rite must be performed with all respect in the heart. If one goes to a temple or church to wait upon the Lord, one should go all alone, and not think of others around: you should be alone with Him. God is one, and alone, and He desires that we should go to Him all alone, with intellect stilled.
  Unfortunately, these prayers and rites are usually performed with the mind on other things. Something that is done daily becomes a habit, and habit turns into nature. Surdas Ji, a great devotee of God, says, "The steps are going forward but the mind is dragging backward." It is our habit to follow the mind, and if the mind is not on devotion, there will be no benefit derived therefrom. Have you ever seen the white stork, standing motionless, concentrating for fish, just as if in deep meditation? What a wonderful single-pointed attention! But upon what? To swallow a fish! Outwardly he shows the world he is a great mahatma, but his mind is on food.
  I have nothing against customs and rites, for they prepare the ground for something higher: they beget good karmas, will bear good fruit. But by what means is salvation attained? By that process which all holy books give out to the world. The means to salvation is the very Soul of one's soul; and it is called Naam. What indication is there that one has contacted Naam? "By repeating the Naam, the Light of millions of suns will manifest." In the Naam is the Light, and Light is the form of God, and in that Light there is Sound - Udgit, Nad, the Music of the Spheres, and so on. There is no benefit in nodding one's head in pretense of intoxication and saying emptily, "There is Light, there is Sound" if one has never seen or heard them. Some people light a lamp and wave it around their heads. This outer ritual holds the meaning that there is God's Light within, but they never see the Light. Do not lose sight of the true purpose for which they stand.
  Divali day is celebrated in sweet remembrance of important past events: Mahavira Swami got Nirvana on this day, and Swami Dayanand got illumination on this day. Lord Rama returned to his kingdom after fourteen years of banishment, and his people lit millions of lamps in celebration. Divali was the day that Guru Har Gobind returned to Amritsar after fourteen years of imprisonment in Gwalior. Swami Ram Tirath was born on Divali day and renounced the world on Divali day. This is all very auspicious, so brother should meet brother, and all differences in the heart should be ironed out. The true meaning behind the Festival of Lights should be practiced, and that is to enkindle the light, the true Light of the Lord, within. On this day the people clean the house, throw out all the worn-out unwanted things, whitewash the walls, and light the lamps and candles; but this is outer Divali. Truly speaking, Divali will be fruitful if the inner Light is lighted. When the Light is lit inside, that is an indication of the manifestation of God. This is achieved only when all the dirt and filth in the heart is washed away.
  The heart is soiled with the dirt of the ages, and to remove the dirt, one should first observe ahimsa (non-violence), so as not to add any more to it. Ahimsa is the greatest virtue. It is the highest virtue never to think ill of anyone, actually in thought, speech, and action. Secondly, one should avoid the company of those who have low traits. If a person has low traits, you will be influenced by them; keeping his company will prevent the Light from shining within you. So one should imbibe first the virtues of Truth. Lies, cheating, deceit, hypocrisy, showing something different on the face than whatever is in the heart - these things increase the corruption inside. Keep these facts in mind, for he who has no ill will against anyone will say what is true. His tongue will be sweet because he has no intention to hurt anyone's feelings, but rather speaks frankly for the sake of right understanding.
  Who speaks the truth without fear? Either an established enemy or a true friend, although the enemy may make a mountain out of a molehill, because his intentions are dishonorable and he exaggerates. A true friend will never broadcast one's shortcomings, but with love will try to explain where you are going wrong, with your interests at heart. Imbibe the virtues of truth, and with love encourage better understanding in others. And what is more important, do not fail in your own good intentions and principles because of hearsay or rumors. Some tongues are led by selfish motives with little respect for truth. There is purpose behind everything, which may be obvious or hidden. Do not therefore be a puppet to the tunes played by others; you will do harm to yourself.
  His heart becomes clean who does not indulge in vice, bad habits, deceit, hypocrisy, etc., and leads a chaste life in thought, speech and actions. We aim to realize God, that God which is in all beings, whom all worship as One, though He may be given many different names. He is the great Controlling Power which keeps all souls in the body; which, when He withdraws, we also must leave. When a person truly understands these facts, how can the question of hatred for others arise? Whom will one hate? Out of right understanding, true thoughts and actions develop and follow naturally. God is in everyone - if you know that someone is unhappy or in need, go and help them. If they are hungry or thirsty, share whatever you have. Because of God, do service to His children. This does not mean bondage, but rather it is a helping factor. Bondage lies in forgetting Him and tying oneself to the world and its environments. On the day of Divali you will find that the atmosphere in the home changes for the better, due to the increased devotion, the extra cleanliness, the added fragrance of incense and burning of lamps and candles - all done with devoted attitude of mind. There is some radiation in this, but the real remedy for cutting out all evil propensities from the mind is to enkindle the Light within you.
You should stay in your own social bodies and religions, speak your own languages, keep your own customs, apparel, emblems and identifying labels. All religions demand an ethical and righteous way of life. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God." It is also said, "Clean the core of your heart for the Arrival; Sweep all impressions away so that He may sit there." That heart is truly clean in which no other thought remains save that of the Lord. You may ask, "How can we do this while we are in the world?" It is written in the Gita, "He who sees everyone in Me and Me in everyone, is My most loved one." If you have children, or father, mother, wife, husband, see the Light of God in them. He has united you in this relationship, not merely for an outer bond but to see and serve God in them. If you do so, there will be no bondage in your relationships. Bondage occurs only when the I-hood steps in and the Lord is forgotten. So you can do all the world's work, but live like a compass whose needle always points in one direction. Keep your attention on the Lord, for if the direction changes, then? "The Giver is forgotten, the gifts become loved, and miserable Man forgets the approaching death." Man is fully enwrapped in the world - he is all "me and mine," and wherever "me and mine" are, there rules Illusion. "Me and mine" have some bearing on one's life, but the Lord Himself has arranged it, and when everything is seen in the correct perspective there will be no binding effects. If the children make mistakes, appeal to their finer instincts, with love and careful understanding. Losing one's temper, shouting, and taking violent action will only confuse them; they will not know what they have done wrong. Take time to explain, even three or four times, and it will eventually have effect.
  This necessity of cleaning the heart has been advised in all religions. You will find it in the Sermon on the Mount, in Buddha's Eight-fold Path, and in other teachings. But we deceive ourselves by sprinkling a little fragrance on our pile of dirt; how will the smell leave like this? We would like to dye our filthy clothes, but how will the color take? Even with a little color, a clean cloth will dye beautifully. If a room is perfectly clean, a single flower will fill its atmosphere with refreshing fragrance. Even if the disciple has been given the experience and continues the practice but does not make good progress, you will find that this very thing is at the root of the trouble.
  Lighting the lamp and ringing the bell as an empty religious custom, though performed up to one million years, will remain an empty religious custom. All religious rites remain in this category, though good actions may be earned which will bear the fruit of reward, if they are performed with sincerity of thought. But there is no salvation in this. Kabir Sahib says, "In the palace of silence, light the lamp." The body itself is the true temple of the Lord, in which the Light of God is shimmering, and in that Light the Sound is vibrating. Masters speak of this in various terms: Intrinsic Hearing (Buddha), Truth clothed in Light(Pythagoras), the Unstruck Fire (Zoroaster), the Music of the Spheres, etc. So even if one could remember every known scripture by heart and could fill the memory with the words, but yet without lighting the Light inside and hearing the Sound, all this knowledge is bearing no real fruit.
  Light and Sound are the direct way back to Absolute God. They are like two electric lifts which will take us to that place from whence they emanate. Learn the basic teaching of your own religion properly and you will find it all starts from here. It was due purely to climatic variations that different customs and rites were adopted, but basically it is all very simple and clear, so do not remain under any misapprehension. Blessed is each religion, and blessed is each emblem or symbol, so remain wherever God has placed you; He cannot be realized just by changing one's outer form of religion. "The garb was changed many times, resulting in misery to the body; You have to bear the brunt of all that!" It is man that must change, not the religion.
  The Muslims do not commence their namaz (prayer) without doing vazu, which is washing the hands, feet and face with water or sand. There is a very definite meaning behind this, which is to wash oneself away from the world and its affairs; then one may stand in attendance at the court of the Lord. The Muslim prophets say that if you have not washed your hands of the world you have no right to sit in the remembrance of God. In such unwashed attitude there would be no true namaz. "Mind was given elsewhere, body was in the Sadhu's company; Kabir says, how can an unbleached cloth be dyed?" The thoughts may not necessarily be bad, but do not forget your aim, which is to realize God. Relationships and property, etc., were given to man to help him achieve this end. If the inner Light has not been lit and one has not seen that the Lord is the Doer and Operator of all this machinery of body and world, then one's main task has not been accomplished. "While he thinks he is the doer, he will continue in the womb-cycle." Lord Krishna has said, "Good and bad karmas both bind the soul, as chains of gold and iron." Salvation consists solely of the soul being rejoined to the Lord. To achieve this, the mind must be stilled. If the mind is not stilled, the attention constantly wanders outward and becomes the image of the body and the world; day and night this impregnation of sanskaras (impressions in the mind) continues. The heart's reservoir overflows with these impressions - even the nightly dreams are full of them. The meeting with the Lord is very far from those who stay in such a condition.
  The same Light of God is in all creatures - animals, birds, fish, etc. so one should love God and love also all creation, for He is in all. This constitutes a true way of celebrating Divali. You may do it today, or tomorrow, or next year, in ten years' time, or later on in life, or you can take millions of births to do it, but this very work will have to be done sooner or later. The learned and illiterate alike must be able to control the attention - if the attention is not feeding the senses, the senses remain out of action. This has been proved in an ordinary way by a person keeping his attention fully concentrated upon a certain thing or task; he will not be aware of anyone speaking to him or calling him. In truth, everything is within you, and you are the Light. He is the Greater Light, and you the smaller. After you have been cleaned free from all dirt, you will see the Light, and ultimately be absorbed into the Greater Light, for this is the law of Nature: that everything is drawn to its own kind. In this way, you will become one - in Him. If on Divali day you enkindle the Light within you, then I congratulate you; otherwise your "house" is in darkness. As Kabir Sahib says, "In the silent palace of the void, light the lamp."
  When you close your eyes there is darkness, but when the Light is seen, then the inner journey starts; first to rise above the physical into the astral plane where the Light will become stronger. In the causal plane it will be yet stronger, and from then onward the Light is so strong as to be incomparable with millions of suns and moons. A certain pandit (Vedic scholar) came here recently and read to me a section from the Yajur Veda which mentioned these very things I am now telling you about. Brothers, there is Light within you, and there is also Sound within. In the Gurbani, we have, "There is Light within, and the Everlasting Music reverberating therefrom." The Chandogya Upanishad gives the same information. It is a real thing, and if you have received this gift - in any religion - know that you have received the means to salvation.
  The Muslim Fakirs also say that within man the Kalam-i-Kadim is vibrating, but we are imprisoned in the body and alas do not hear it. Shamas Tabrez Sahib says, "Every minute One Voice is coming to my soul from the Lord's direction." What kind of Voice is this? It is said to be like an ordinary voice, but alas we cannot hear it. There is an inner eye, which if open can see the Light of God. Lord Krishna has said, "You cannot see Me with these eyes of flesh and blood, but only through that Divine Eye with which I have blessed you." Guru Nanak Sahib similarly says, "O Nanak, that eye is different through which the Lord is seen." Everyone has got this eye - it is called the Third Eye, the Single Eye, the Shiv Netra. "If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." And where is this eye? "Fix your attention above the outgoing faculties, where even Mahesh is meditating." Even Lord Shiva (Mahesh) is meditating upon that same invisible place, and that is why we sometimes call it the Shiv Netra - Shiva's Eye.
  Excuse me, but performing customs and rites and distributing parshad is not a true way of celebrating a Divali festival. Our condition in this respect can be likened to the story of the camel which thrust its nose into its master's tent on a cold night. It gradually edged ****her until its head and neck were inside, and then ****her until half its body was in the tent. Finally through steadily inching its way, the camel took over the tent and its master had to go outside in the cold. Likewise, these customs and rituals of ours will throw out the Truth completely if we are not careful enough to find the right understanding. Right understanding is a noble factor - it prepares the ground for the Truth itself. Perform all rites, customs and prayers with right understanding and they will all be acceptable at the Lord's feet. Even if you do it as a gymnastic exercise, yet at least there is hope for you in the future.
  We cry every day that communism is increasing (atheism), but what is the condition of our own homes? We rise in the morning, drink tea, do this and that, read the newspaper, and then we have to eat something. Someone goes to the office, someone else to the shop, etc. Is there a routine whereby all members of the family sit in the remembrance of the Lord every morning, for even one hour, or half an hour? There is nothing like this. In Punjabi there is a saying that if the child is spoiled while in his diapers he will never right himself. Well, people are crying about the communists outside, but communists are being created in our own homes. Our children have no knowledge of even the most basic teachings of spirituality - many of the parents do not know them. We worry about possessing things and being happy - we are concerned that our children should be educated - these things are all right, but we are ignoring the most useful part of their upbringing.
  I told the people in the West also, that every home should have a church - a temple, a gurudwara, or mosque - call it what you will; then morning and evening the whole family, big and small, should sit down in remembrance of God. The children's lives will change, and yours also. Example is always better than precept, and seeing you doing what is right, the children will copy you. We are in fact responsible for the coming generation's character, and if we will not change, how can we expect that character to be decent and upright? Stop for a while wherever you are, and review your own situation. Search for the true meanings hidden behind all things, and make sure you have got the right understanding. Up to now, most of our life has been lived in a very artificial manner, and if we have gained nothing real thereby, then what is the use? Farid Sahib has warned us that "The whole world is sounding, and you are also dancing with it." Do not go on blindly following what others do without knowing the reasons. What can be achieved from such actions? I am not trying to belittle anything, but rather am trying to help you understand from the right perspective.
  "Seeing Him, all our durmath (misconception) is finished; He is our True Friend." This is the true way to banish all wrong thinking and establish right understanding. The company of such a true friend is called Satsang. By searching the whole world you will find these true friends, which are very rare. So be wise, take in the Truth and throw out untruth. It is written in the Upanishads, "Lead me from the unreal to the real, from darkness to light." It is no new teaching, and whatever company you keep, you will take on the same color. There are many formations in the world, but making formations is not the Masters' purpose or mission. They were made after the advent of each Master, without whom, as a matter of course, stagnation set in, from which bad smells arose. The result of all this was misery upon misery. There is no exaggeration in a Master's words -he will tell you exactly what is what.
  From this lowly level, we cannot see the Absolute God, but that same God came into expression in creation and is permeating throughout, in the form of Light, in which the Akhand Kirtan (Perpetual Song), or Nad, or Udgit, is vibrating. All philosophy deals merely with theories, but mysticism deals with direct contact with Reality: the God-into-Expression Power. But that can only be contacted when one rises above the senses, which can be done only in the human form. Where does our attention finally reach? To that place from where the Sound is coming - the Ultimate Source. Some people practice the path of Light only, but on that path the soul finds itself surrounded and cannot discover the way out. Here, the path of the Sound is most necessary. The various holy scriptures have been explained in detail countless times, but no one can explain the Sound; it is beyond description or explanation. Anything which is above the intellect cannot be explained - it can be contacted only. Furthermore, it will be one thing; it has eternally been one, and cannot be made into two or more. That is why those realized souls who are in direct contact with the Sound all speak of it similarly.
  So on this Divali Day I would like to impress upon you particularly to give up thinking ill of others. "While you do not make the enemy your friend, you will have no peace within." Your sleep state will be full of restless dreams. If anyone thinks or speaks of you in an aggressive way, do not follow his example, otherwise his very thoughts will react upon you. If a wave of water hits a hard surface, it will bounce back, but if it strikes something resilient, it will be absorbed, like the action of a sponge, and there will be no violent reaction. "One curse is given, but on its return becomes many." If it is not returned, then? It was one, and remained one. Again we remember Farid Sahib saying, "The whole world is sounding, and you are also dancing with it." It is better, with a cool head, to try and read between the lines to discover why the person is acting so antagonistically, and then take action accordingly. You will save yourself from degradation this way. To think or speak of a person badly, to tell lies or cheat, to be hypocritical, indulging in backbiting and other ill-becoming traits - these are all degrading to the soul. Keep your hearts pure, and as God is in everyone, try to see only the best in all. Whatever duties have been given to you by God, perform them with love, and if others are shirking their duties, appeal to them with love, and pray for their better understanding. Then, leave them to the Lord. If we always remember that the God we worship is in all men, we would not even allow a single brother to go hungry.
  There was once a devotee who worshiped the Lord very faithfully, and one day he prayed, "O God, please give me your darshan." God replied to him, "All right, I will come to you." The devotee started preparing for the Lord's arrival with great enthusiasm, cleaning his house spotlessly, making a specially comfortable seat decorated with flowers for Him to rest on, and preparing many different delicious delicacies for the Lord's refreshment. When all was ready, he sat at the door awaiting God's arrival. From morning until night he did not leave the door; but the Lord did not come. An old man in very ragged clothes passed by, and in passing, called out, "Brother, I am very hungry, could you give me just one piece of bread?" The devotee was so engrossed in expectantly awaiting the Lord's arrival that he totally ignored the old man, who went away hungry. In the depth of night, the devotee spoke to the Lord in meditation, asking Him why He had not come, as promised. God said, "Why, I came to you, and I asked you for food, but you gave me nothing."
  So we never know in what form God will visit us. Whatever our attitude in approaching the Lord, so will be our reward. Whatever the desire, that will be fulfilled. If, for instance, you think of this as a place of Truth (Satsang) then leave all worldly thoughts when entering. This more elevated attitude of mind will enable you to absorb the radiation therein, from which you will be greatly uplifted. When you fully understand what it is you are receiving and also make it a part of your everyday life, most decidedly you will have salvation. However, "If you see the Satguru as the world sees him, there is no salvation in this / If you do not love the Satguru's Shabd." There are various attitudes of regard toward the Satguru, and accordingly does each man receive. If he is met with faith and respect in the heart, receptivity develops, and the radiation is absorbed.
  I have led a householder's life. You also should live in the world, but there is no need to add to its degradation, and to your own. Women in the home should maintain it properly with cleanliness and tidy habits, look after the children with interest, and serve their husbands wholeheartedly. This is also a dharma (principle of righteous living). To him whose home is heaven, the whole world is heaven. How can anyone hope to realize the Lord if they declare they serve Him and ignore the needs of others? Does it mean that we dislike God in some forms?
  Those personalities who are Truth personified never advise the seekers to leave their hearths and homes to take up vigil in the jungles and lonely places. This is not at all necessary. "When you meet a complete Satguru, competent is his method; Laughing, playing, eating, wearing, you will gain salvation by following him." It is not a matter of leaving the condition wherein God has placed you; there is no need to change your location, but simply change your angle of vision. Bow down to the Satguru's words, not his body only, or you will remain very far away - from him and from your aim.
  There is a very explanatory example of obedience during the life of Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Guru of the Sikhs. There was a Jat farmer by the name of Bela, who came to Guru Gobind Singh and said, "I wish to serve you." The Guru asked him what he could do, and Bela replied that he knew how to look after horses. The use of horses was extensive and common in those days, and so the Guru gave Bela the service. He worked diligently and with love, and even the Guru saw the difference in the horses' condition, and he asked, "Who is taking care of the horses these days?" He was told that Bela was the groom, and the Guru sent for him, congratulated him, and told him how pleased he was with his service. In further token of his pleasure, the Guru said, "Come to me daily, and I will give you one stanza from the Jap Ji Sahib, to learn and digest." So each morning, Bela would go to the Master and receive his lesson, and then spend the whole day repeating the words with full concentration on his Master, while doing his work in the stables. One day Guru Gobind Singh decided to leave early on some urgent work, and was about to gallop away when Bela ran up to the Guru and cried, "But what about my lesson?" The Guru replied, "O brother Bela, do you not see the time or opportunity?" and he galloped off. Brother Bela accepted what the Guru had said without question in his heart, and in all sincerity started learning the words with full attention - "O brother Bela, do you not see the time or opportunity?" Guru Gobind Singh's attention had been so fierce when uttering these words that the full force of it went deep into them. The result was that on repeating them, Bela began to go into samadhi (began to leave the body). One of the senior disciples, who had long been chief reader of the Guru Granth Sahib and was the Guru's constant companion, even in the fighting during the war, was a very learned man and would not only read but explain the words and their meaning. On hearing that Bela had gone into samadhi, he went to the Master and said, "Maharaj, there is injustice in your court, for this Jat Bela who arrived here only a few days ago and who is an illiterate and understands nothing, has gone into deep samadhi; whereas we who are with you constantly even in the wars, have sacrificed our lives and lived under terrible conditions, and have studied the books for countless hours, and yet we cannot meditate as successfully as this man."
  Do you understand what this all means? It is a question of the person's attitude of mind. If you do not absorb the teachings practically into your very lives, you will gain nothing. It is not achieved by dancing and jumping around (professing devotion outwardly). Some people go as far as to say, "The Master came from Sat Lok and gave me fruit as a parshad." This type of people is only interested in impressing others - but this is how we can drift away from the Truth. See what is right with your own eyes, and do not be led astray by the prattlings of others. This is what Farid Sahib means when he talks of the world dancing to its own tune. He says further, "He does not dance who takes the Lord's protection." When you get something, be content with what you have received, and practice it properly so that it may increase. If you can find anything better than what you have been given, then I will also go with you. 

  So truly celebrating Divali does not lie in getting parshad or any outer action, but rather in taking the Truth of Divali into yourself and practicing it. You will see that your life will change in a matter of months. If up to now you have not done this, and are not going to do it, you will remain in darkness. If you have done something and have received a little Light, but do not devote your full attention and do not practice it, daily in all expressions of life, you will not increase whatever you have. I will now take a short hymn of Guru Ram Das Ji, on the subject of Divali - how to light the lamps of Divali within you.
  "To realize God, we have sold our body to a Complete Master." The words are very clear; but why a Complete Master? Because today the world is full of people who are not what they profess to be. Who in fact is the Guru? The God Himself is the Guru. When Guru Nanak Sahib was asked about this, he said, "Shabd is the Guru, and the surat (attention) is the disciple." In other words, that God Power which came into expression is my Guru. Kabir Sahib was asked where his Guru lived, and he replied, "My Guru resides in the gaggan (seat of the soul), and the disciple in this body; When the surat and Shabd meet, there will be no separation." To come into contact with that, our attention must rise above the senses. Guru Gobind Singh has said, "The Ultimate God is One, know Him to be our Guru." The Lord residing in each being is the Guru. "My Beloved is in each form, no place is without Him; I rejoice in that form where He is manifest." We should respect the form in which He has manifested - such a personality never declares himself to be the Guru, but always refers to the God in him. It is a very valuable criterion. Whoever says, "I am a Guru," know him to be yet short of that very status. "O Bheeka, the Incomprehensible (Agam) is beyond speaking of or hearing about; He who knows speaks not, he who speaks knows not." Kabir Sahib describes a Master in this way: "Kabir says we are the knowers of the true home of your Father, and have brought the Lord's orders." It is a beautiful description. He did not say, "I am the Guru."
  Who is the Complete Guru? "Through the Complete Guru, Satsang occurs" (comes out). And what is the Complete Guru? He is one with the Shabd. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." Also, "He manifests Himself in the Guru, and distributes the Shabd." It is that manifested God which joins us to Himself - that is the Guru. No son of man can do it. Christ said, "I am the light of the world, those that come to me shall never walk in darkness." It is another criterion: whoever has got the Light can give it to others. It cannot be given by teachers of the outer customs, or by intellectuals, or by any scripturist. But he who is one with the Light can give the Light. "He who takes the veil from my eye and gives the glimpse - O Sadhu, that Satguru is to my liking."
  When it says we have sold the body, it means that he has given himself over completely and has no further claim on himself. And he did this just to realize God. "Someone should make me meet my Beloved Lord; To Him will I sell myself; I am in torment for darshan of my Lord." He does not make you a slave, but rejoins you to the Lord Himself. Another Master says the same thing: "Someone should come and join me back to God." And how is that done? "A strong Guru drags the attention (soul) out." He is full controller of his attention, and has become therefore the mouthpiece of God. By his single thought, ten, twenty, one hundred, one thousand, can be taken above the senses and shown the Light within.
  There should be no misunderstanding of the term "selling the body." Through the prarabdh or destiny karmas, God has joined one to a wife, husband, children, friends; so this body belongs to them. But the Lord wishes us to make the best use of it, by being pure and chaste, doing meditation, living righteously, and keeping His commandments; this is the true meaning of giving the body. It does not mean leaving one's home, family, and so on. Why has the body been given to us? "The Feet of the Lord should reside in this body, and the tongue should repeat His Name; O Nanak, for this reason, take care of the body." Keep it clean and pure, for cleanliness is next to godliness, but there is no need to be constantly decorating it. Furthermore, cleaning outwardly and remaining dirty inside is useless, for no matter how much perfume is poured on a garbage heap, it will never impart a clean refreshing fragrance. To become clean inside, he tells you that no sins should be committed through this body, and no bad thoughts should enter it. This is what it means to sell one's body to Him.
  Hazrat Ibrahim once bought a slave; it was the custom of those days. When he and the slave reached the house, Hazrat Ibrahim said, "What would you like to eat?" The slave replied, "Whatever food you give, for I have been sold to you." The next day, Ibrahim asked the slave what kind of clothes he wanted to wear, and the slave replied, "Whatever you give, for I have been sold." He asked for nothing and claimed no choice, for he knew his body had been sold and surrendered himself to the fact, fully resigned.
  Complete obedience is the essence of selling the body to the Guru - it means nothing more nor less. Christ told his disciples, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Those who do respect the Guru's words will most decidedly receive salvation. Christ also said, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." Whatever words enter your heart, that much have you understood fully. "The words the Guru uttered have I tied into my heart." But don't just keep them there - they are not meant for repeating to others as a demonstration of knowledge; they should be lived up to. And how can one reside in his heart? "Keep someone in your heart, and you will reside in his." If you think of a person, there is always a reaction. When the disciple remembers his Guru, then "Satguru gives protection with remembrance, through his very life." His attention is his very life's essence. Though he may be hundreds of miles away, yet he constantly cares for his children - through his attention. The more you remember him, the greater will be the reaction. As you think, so you become; and if he is truly a Guru, you will gain spiritual upliftment and salvation. When one can hear sound and voice through radio, across thousands of miles, and can see images through television, then surely the God Power which is all-omnipotent, that same Power which is the Guru, surely that can manifest, if one's needle is tuned in correctly. Just keep your thoughts toward him and you will benefit from the direct radiation.
  "This body, this wealth, this mind, I have given to the Master." It does not mean to give the body literally - that belongs to those with whom you are connected, as a reaction of the past. The Master guides your soul, so your soul should be surrendered to him, not the body. By giving the mind, you should think as he wants you to think, and your wealth used for good cause - not for misuse, or to harm the lives of others. Share with others, and then eat. Think of everything as being the Guru's property given in your safe-keeping, and use it in a like manner. If you do all this, what happens? You receive Par Brahm (God beyond Brahmand). "O brothers, keep connection with the Satsang, and all your wrongs will be righted. Even your earthly life will be a success."
  So Guru Ram Das Ji is giving out some of his own life's experience. You should know that he was a great devotee of his Guru. Devotion therefore is the keynote to success, for as you think, so you become. If you obey his every wish, your success will be beyond words. If he puts his hand on your head (gives you his protection), then you have got his attention, and what more is wanted?
  To realize God, we have sold our body to a Complete Master;  Satguru, the Giver, intuned us with the Naam, and our countenance radiated with this transformation of destiny.  The True Form, the Master, gives the experience of God within us, through which our whole destiny is awakened. After more than seventy years of searching, Guru Amar Das Ji said, "I was very tired, performing all these karmas; Then, without effort, I met the Satguru." And what type of Guru is the Satguru? "When the Satguru is met, the eye can see and realize the Truth within." It clearly indicates what the Satguru should be. But we must take our attention from outer things - give him our body, our mind, and our wealth.
  When King Janak was given an experience by Maharishi Ashtavakra, he was also required to first give his body, mind and wealth. The king had announced that he wanted the experience, and it should be given in as short a time as it takes to mount a horse. A huge gathering of sages and holy men had been called, and a large stage set for the purpose. When the announcement was made, none of the wise men present had the courage to mount the stage and declare himself capable of giving the experience. Many could give fine talks, but only one who is in oneness with the Light can give experience of it. These are not words of pride - it is his daily work, or you may call it his vocation, and he has been commanded by God to this purpose. The Lord Himself works through him. So from all the great sages present, only Ashtavakra stepped forward and mounted the stage. His body was crippled and deformed in eight places (the name Ashtavakra means "eight humps" or deformities). When the rest of the holy men saw him come forward, they laughed and thought he must be mad. They considered his strange figure ridiculous, and his claim of knowledge pretentious, and were not impressed but amused. It was a rare thing, even in those days. Where can you find such a person today? Go into the world and search for one. Many will give ethical teachings and repeat what is written in books, but those who actually give an experience of the Beyond are very rare; there have always been only a few, and even now they are rare, but the world is not without them.
  But the amusement died into an embarrassed silence when in a calm clear voice, Ashtavakra turned to the king and said, "If you want the knowledge of the Beyond, then why are you sitting with a gathering of cobblers, whose eyes are only on my body?" All the audience was ashamed. Then he asked the king, "Do you really want this experience?" The king replied that he did. "Then, you will have to make an offering to me of your body, wealth, and mind." The king agreed. In those days, the custom of sealing agreements between men was to pour a little clear water in the person's hand, and the ceremony was finished. These days, special stamped paper is prepared and typed upon, and even then there remains some doubt as to whether the man is being cheated or not.
  So the Rishi said, "You have given me your body - go and sit among the shoes at the entrance of this court." (By Indian custom, especially in those days, no one would dream of taking their shoes into a place of worship or respect.) One can imagine the depth of humiliation for the king to have to sit among the shoes, with his followers and subjects in full view, sitting on carpets. But the king told himself that his body now belonged to the Guru, and in meek obedience went and sat among the shoes at the entrance. The Rishi called to him, "O king, where are you sitting now?" The king replied, "In the lowest place of all, with the shoes." The Rishi's purpose was for the king to admit his place. He then said, "As you have given all your wealth and possessions, then do not even think of them - they do not belong to you." The king saw his court and palace before him, and his mind wandered from one thing to another, so he closed his eyes. Then he closed his ears so that he would hear no sound, but even then his mind wandered about the palace and his kingdom. He again and again reminded himself that he had given everything to the Rishi, but could not still his mind. The Rishi asked, "Where are you now?" The king said, "My condition is like that of a crow sitting on a ship's mast. He flies in all directions but can see no land to alight on, and so returns to his perch on the mast, again and again." The Maharishi told him, "You have given your mind to me, so do not flit around with my mind." Then for a while the king's mind was stilled. Ashtavakra then gave his attention, and the soul withdrew, rose above body-consciousness, and the Rishi connected it to the Light and Sound. The king was asked if he was satisfied, and he replied in the affirmative. Even now, when Naam is given, the instructions are the same: to withdraw one's attention from outer things and forget the body, etc., and then with a little attention the soul rises. The Maharishi then said, "All right, I am giving all these things back to you - body, wealth, and mind - as a parshad, so deal with them remembering that they are mine. Think of the body as mine; keep it clean and pure. Think of the wealth as mine; share with those in need, and use it only for good purpose. Do not entertain any bad thoughts; keep all thoughts pure."
  Do you all see the significance of this story? The same teaching is given now; it has not changed at all with the passing of time. It is true that the extent of our success depends upon how obedient we are to his words. If we can concentrate our scattered attention, we will become the controller of that attention, and in due course, the mouthpiece of the Greater Attention. What then will we not be able to do?! Though God is in us, we must become man-in-God and God-in- man; this is our aim. Whoever becomes that can then help others, that is, to see the manifestation of the Light of God in him. "He who thinks of the Guru as a human being will come back, birth by birth." If the Guru seems to be a mere man to you, then what can you expect to receive from him? Each man sees through his own spectacles: whatever color the glass is, so will the vision be. In whatever manner you regard the Guru, your benefit will measure accordingly.
  The Guru's knowledge attached us to the All-Pervading Lord.
  A Guru's single thought can accomplish vast tasks. Masters are not made in a day; every Saint has his past, and every sinner a future. We can also become Masters - with proper help and guidance. When I was in England, two small boys came to me and I asked them, "What do you want, boys?" They both said, "We want to become Masters." You have all received the gift - increase it - then you may be selected as a Master, by God. This is not an election by votes; the Lord Himself gives the commission. Furthermore, "He manifests Himself in the Guru, and distributes the Shabd." It is not the kind of work that can be done through the puny power of man. Each man sees only at his own level; he makes mistakes, and then falls. Then he dances to the world's tune, and others follow his example. Who suffers? One's own self. What does the Master lose? Does a mirror care if anyone looks into it or not? "The Guru's knowledge attaches us" - so become one with God, this is the very essence of all this teaching. Light can only come from Light. Merely pressing or rubbing the eyes to bring sparks through friction within the physical vision, or trying to visualize Light, will not give anyone a connection with the Light. He who has that power in his attention can, in one sitting, reveal some Light in others - by withdrawing their attention from outside. This is the only method of connecting the soul with the Light, and that connection increases daily with practice. "In each living being the Lord is vibrating; Get connected to the Guru's Shabd."
  I would cut my mind and body as an offering to the Guru;  All my doubts are removed by His word.  I have explained that giving one's body to the Guru does not mean that one loses it - and cutting the body and mind does not mean they are cut into pieces, but they should work only to obey the Guru's commands. Why and how are the doubts removed by the Guru's words? "The whole world is sleeping in attachment and illusion; When will the doubt be removed?" Maya - illusion or forgetfulness - starts when we become identified with the body, for then we begin to see everything from the body's level. The body is made of matter which is changing every moment. The world is also made of matter, changing at the same speed. When two things, namely body and the world, are made of matter, changing at the same speed, they both appear to be still. Those who are one with them are under a grand delusion. For a simple instance, the world appears to be still, but in actual fact it is moving. We have bound ourselves to this illusion and all it means, with all its effects. How can it be removed? Only by rising above body-consciousness. "O Lord, some Master -soul should show me the easy way." Only then can the doubts be removed so that the Truth can be seen. The Master-soul's vision is correct: he does not dance to anyone's tune. He can never see anything inaccurately, so naturally he will never do anything wrong, like the depraved man with his smoky spectacles. This is how a man's character changes from bad to good. But only through the Lord's blessing. How? By being attached in love to him in whom the Lord Himself has manifested.
  "If you have good karmas from the Beyond, you get the connection to the Name of the Lord." The Guru never lives in an untrue way; he does not act and pose. When a person tells one lie, then one hundred more lies must be told subsequently, to cover up that one. This sort of thing results in party factions and other undesirable situations. It is not necessary for the Satguru to tell any lies; he will say what he has seen; and that is the Truth. Kabir Sahib says, "You cannot describe Him who is above all / But what the Guru gives becomes sweeter day by day. / Kabir says, My doubts have been removed by seeing the Everlasting Lord." It is a very clear statement which gives the situation exactly - if we are still in doubt as to what we should do, then what can be done? "Having a lamp in the hand, still we fall in the well."
  In the darkness He lights the lamp  When we love the Guru's knowledge.  Through getting attached by love to the Guru, the darkness is dispelled; thousands of suns shine forth with the repetition of Naam. Due to the difficulties of Kal Yuga, this blessing is being given freely. In the past, many restrictions were imposed before connection to Naam was given. After many years of service, the Master would then give the first part of the theory, and so on. But the darker the age, the more mercy does the Master extend, and today everyone receives an experience from the very beginning. This special concession is due to the bad condition of the world, which is drifting speedily into negativity. A Master would use any means to save the souls from such a terrible fate, but if the soul receives the gift and then wastes it - well, that is a tragic misfortune.
  What is the Guru's knowledge? "The Guru's knowledge reveals the True Light, and the darkness of ignorance is split asunder." Light appears in the darkness - the God manifests in the form of Light, and he in whom the Complete Light is burning, is the true Khalsa (a true and pure disciple). Guru Gobind Singh Ji says, "Know a Khalsa only when the full Light shines in his body." He also says, "Khalsa is my true form." Also, "In the Khalsa I reside," and also, "Khalsa is the Complete Satguru." Finally he declares, "These are not words of imaginative lies; I take the Par Brahm Guru Nanak as my witness." If you have done every other work but this, it will all be of little value; but if you do this work, all other efforts will be fruitful. When the Masters recommend the company of Saints who can give contact with the True Naam, they do so with infinite purpose. It is a gift which gives benefit both here and hereafter. "Tie with the Gift of Life, which is with you here and there." In the Hindu religion, when a man is approaching death, his people say, "Quickly light a lamp and place it before him, or he may die without first seeing the light." People do not realize that the Light should be lit while living - within one, not outside. What is the use at the time of death, when even every-day consciousness is withdrawing?
  At Hardwar in northern India, the pilgrims light a small wick in a boat of leaves and flowers, and set this afloat on the sacred River Ganges. If it gets extinguished by the water or a breeze, they light another and float it. The meaning behind this outer ritual is to show that to cross this ocean of life, one needs the guidance of the Light. But that Light is different; it has no wick, no oil; it cannot be overturned or sunk, and remains burning forever. "If someone lights such a Light, O Nanak, he does not come round in transmigration." And ahead there is Sound in this Light; it is the basic teaching of all true Masters, irrespective of religions.
  The darkness of ignorance is banished;  Through that Treasure lying in the house, the mind is awakened.  The mind is steeped in illusion - a kind of sleep state - and can only be awakened by the connection to Naam.
  The Lord of Death will take reckoning of those imprisoning themselves in illusion.
  Illusion is like a guard with a bow and arrow, keeping the prison closely guarded so that those who have forgotten their freedom in the enjoyments may not escape. The Lord of Death's toll for these prisoners is very heavy. When one enters a beautiful park, one is free to roam around, relax on the grass, enjoy the beauty of the flowers, plants and trees, but the gardener will deal very severely with anyone attempting to pluck the flowers or steal the plants. A true sadhu is he who lives in the garden of the world, but never thinks of claiming anything as his own. Those who live their lives according to their Guru's commands and remember the Lord continuously will not be under the world's influence with all its corruption. Those who have not the good fortune of knowing their Guru is with them, remain under the mind's influence, and they eat, drink, and live according to the dictates of their minds. Even after meeting the Guru, there are those who remain under the influence of the mind. "He is a manmukh (mouthpiece of the mind) who does not recognize the Shabd, and knows not the fear of the Guru." Such a man has no awe or respect in his heart, and often thinks of the Guru as being on his own level. At times he considers the Guru to be lower than himself; so what can this type of person receive? "The words of a depraved man are like a scorpion's sting," the pain of which is like the ***** of a driving thorn, but it increases to an unbearable extent. So do not believe such people, as it will give unbearable pain in the long run. The worldly things were given with useful purpose - not for enjoyment's sake. Those who go on enjoying will have to pay the price; he who plucks the flowers will get the fine.
  The unfortunates who have not sold their heads to the Satguru, will come and go in the world.
  One will go on coming and going until one surrenders one's whole being to the Guru; and this means living in accordance with his wishes, thinking as he advocates. The keeper of the intellect is the Guru. Maulana Rumi Sahib prays to God, saying, "This intellect will turn my face from You; Keep Your control on it, and I am saved - otherwise I am lost." It does not take much time to spoil the milk! The intellect is like that. If your mind obeys the Guru one hundred per cent, you will know then who the God is. Don't let your intellect interfere in the slightest fraction with what you know is right. He who is willing to obey him without a question will receive the treasure. "Naam's Perpetual Song, precious jewel of the Lord, is in the Sadhu's keeping." You can also say that God has handed over His treasure to the Master. Then? "The Guru places it before h:m who takes His words as Truth." To find a Guru who can do this is the height of good fortune. "Without good fortune, the Satguru is not met."
  Please, my Lord, listen to my appeal:  I wish only to be at Thy Feet.  To be at His Feet means to obey him - to surrender unto him. He would like to dye you in the same color as his own soul. In deep humility he has said "I want to be at Your Feet." He is wearily acknowledging his defeat in the world; it is not a matter of force. It has also been said that by force you cannot get, and by force you cannot give. You can neither gain the inner knowledge by force, nor can you learn to leave the body at will by force. Whoever feels that he can achieve anything through force is welcome to try and see. All is in the Lord's hands; if He wants to give anything, then you will receive. He most definitely will give to one who will surrender to His Feet. Dwell only on the understanding that the Guru has given; imbibe the virtues therein, and as you think, so you will become. In this way you will absorb the radiation.
  O Nanak, the Guru looks after my honor here and hereafter;  So I have sold my head to the Satguru.  Our protection and honor is all safe in the Master's hands - we have sold our heads and our attention to him. It reminds me of my own life, about 1917. There is potential for searching out the Truth within all men, some more, some less, according to the sanskaras (background). I used to enjoy an intoxication within, but after two to three months it would cease, for as long as a week sometimes. Naturally I would feel very unhappy during those periods. I went to many Mahatmas for help, so that the intoxication would continue and not break. When I asked for the cure from a certain holy sage, he said, "Yes, but you will have to give your head." In my heart I felt that the giving of one's head should happen with one's own free will, whenever one feels it right, and not by order. You can be sure that he who asks for it, is hungry for it - and if he is in such a hungry condition, what will he be able to give? 

  Keep the Guru's words always before you - they should become part and parcel of your life.  The people are receiving the benefit, what better evidence is wanted? Property and other things can be given through official papers and man-made laws, but not Spirituality. Fire is lighted from fire, and Light comes from Light. 

  So let each of our days be a Divali day; light the inner lamp. If you have any bad thoughts for anyone, stop them, and if anyone has wittingly or unwittingly harmed you, forgive and forget. There is no other cure. If you cannot forgive the misdemeanors of others, your progress will stop, for forgiveness and justice are different. Forget justice, and develop the virtue of forgiveness. Keep your heart clear; do not think badly of anyone, even if they have deliberately harmed you. And do not dance to the world's tune. Protect yourself from lies and hypocrisy. Everyone has God within them, so have love for all men. Do selfless service, and regular meditation. As is also usual on Divali day, the houses and shops are cleaned and decorated. Man should also clean himself inside, decorate himself within with the inner Light, and sit in the Lord's sweet remembrance. Then only can Divali be truly beautiful.



NEVER DANCE TO THE WORLD'S TUNE


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

*Dear namjap ji,
I started reading your post and continued and never knew when I had finished.There is a strong longing to read it again.I have book marked this.I shall take its print immediately and re-read it for many times and many days to come.It is a summary of all that we need.

Thanks for a beautiful and instructive post.
*NEVER DANCE TO THE WORLD'S TUNE


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## dalsingh (Jul 20, 2008)

I don't get it. If people feel this way, why not simply become Hindu?

It is the height of ignorance to ignore people's definition of themselves. The majority of Sikhs would be offended to be called Hindu (this is no slur on Hinduism itself).

Because SOME Gurbani may use references  to Hindu cosmology it doesn't mean  one should jump  to the conclusion that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.

Sikhs refer to themselves as a quom i.e nation. Why is this being ignored? 

Some other major differences include being a world based religion that generally eschews asceticism.

Notwithstanding the development and use of the word Hinduism itself, which is a "catch all" term to describe a multitude of differing and often unrelated beliefs. The very nature of the traditions of "Hinduism" differ greatly from Sikhism.

Tales of Krishna frolicking with gopis, would not be considered as acceptable behaviour to most Sikh people. Running away with someones bride (like Ravana did) are the actions of an average Moghul balatkar, not one of a god. 

I find it remarkable, that given the effort and sacrifice made to demarcate a separate identity for ourselves, people who consider themselves Sikh, believe they are some sort of fringe movement of Hinduism.

Personally I think behind this are the concerted efforts by successive Indian governments to push this view and the acceptance of this propaganda by some.


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2008)

Dalsingh ji

Your reaction mirrors my own for several weeks. You said: _I find it remarkable, that given the effort and sacrifice made to demarcate a separate identity for ourselves, people who consider themselves Sikh, believe they are some sort of fringe movement of Hinduism_.  


But there is a subtle theme that sorts out whether Sikhism rises from "Hindusim" or from "sanatana dharma" which is centuries older than the the Law of Manu. The Law of Manu is what defined religious practice in India after the decline of Buddhism in India. The practices that followed from the Law of Manu are what Sikhism has historically denied.

You noted this above; _Notwithstanding the development and use of the word Hinduism itself, which is a "catch all" term to describe a multitude of differing and often unrelated beliefs. The very nature of the traditions of "Hinduism" differ greatly from Sikhism._

 NamJap's post is telling us in the form of a fable that it is the deeper meaning of the dharmic philosophy of the vedas, and not literal belief in the legends of gopis and etc etc etc,  that is the root of Sikhism and other Dharmic paths. I hope I am not sounding overbearing. I do not mean to be so. Our Gurus were making a similar point -- "Hinduism" if it even is an appropriate label went astray; and Guru Nanak, in his shabads and in the janamsakhi, is heard trying to bring people back to essential elements of this core philosophy. If the thread title were *Sikhism: An Offshoot of Dharmic Belief *there would probably be no controversy.

One thing that I think is missing in the forum is a studious comparison of the various faiths that are all offshoots of this idea of dharma: There is an underlying order in all of creation and a virtuous life is a life is lived in harmony with that order. The dharma is what upholds or supports Creation and makes the natural world possible. Dharma implies a continuous cycle of creation destruction and transformation both in nature and in the soul. One's righteous duty is to live according to our given nature and discover our true self. 

Sikhism, Buddhism, all of the Indian philosophies that we group together as "Hindu", Jainism and Zoroastrianism* differ* in terms of many of the specifics within the above description. These differences can be truly significant. But we share the idea that we can choose a higher truth.

What is that higher truth in Sikhi?


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## dalsingh (Jul 20, 2008)

Aad Ji and everyone else

I am not keen on the reductionalist approach to studying religion. When we take this approach, which essentially drills down to find the bricks, mortar and plaster that make a religion, we often see references and remnants of previous systems. For example, if we do the same to Islam, we will clearly see much derived from Judaism (i.e. circumcism, attitude towards pork etc. as well as Arabic practices of the past.)  BUT the big problem is that such an approach leads to an incorrect understanding of the system in a holistic way. Essentially we become so tied up in the bricks, mortar and plaster and forget to look at the completed house in its entirety. Which ultimately, is what we must do. 

If people think that they can understand the Sikh movement, people and history through reference to pre-Mannu Indian belief, then I think they are wrong. You cannot take the very circumstances Sikhism developed within away from it. These historical and political factors had much more to do with Sikhis development than the recent concoction with is labeled  "sanatan dharam."  This to my mind is just a convenient and cleverly constructed term which in reality translates as "non questioning of ancient Indian folklore and superstition"

The question of whether Sikhism represents/equates to pre-Mannu practices and beliefs in India, is absurb to my mind because it totally ignores other background sociological, political and historical forces which may have impacted on Sikhs and instead aligns it with some ancient, unclear beliefs of a long forgotten and mythologised age. 

Also, please factor in that many Panjabis will be extremely suspicious of sanatan beliefs because they represent a time of slavery, both in the shackles of caste and by constantly invading foes. Our allegiance is to the 10 Gurus and SGGSJ. They are the reasons we are here, not the Upanishads.

Harjas Ji: You talked about the roots of Sikhism, implying (unless I misunderstood) the upanishads. Are you suggesting that this source would influence Sikhi more than the milieu within which Sikhism grew in its early stages?


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2008)

Dalsing ji,

This would be one place where I would disagree:

_These historical and political factors had much more to do with Sikhis development than the recent concoction with is labeled "sanatan dharam." *This to my mind is just a convenient and cleverly constructed term which in reality translates as "non questioning of ancient Indian folklore and superstition"*_

But your thesis that  the political, sociological, cultural forces which brought Sikhism into being and made it what it is are well put. I agree with that.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

*I am posting part of post 44 above.
This may kindly be attended to as it was never the intention that rev'rnd members shall go into the origination of sikhism.
 Yes, There were reasons but all that wealth that we have amassed in The Granth should be put use to for the benefit of all those interested. Kindly reply to the following.

[You may open another thread if you wish if you have doubts as to under what circumstances sikhism came into being.I am clear about it as the topic suggests. It might have been the outcome of Prudence of Guru sahib only but where is the conceptual difference in this and The 'ism' of Hindus.]


Kindly attend to the following:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is one God in mainstream Hinduism.
Demigod and Goddess in Bani

Incidently bani also refers to them as Guru....

* guru eIsru guru gorKu brmw guru pwrbqI mweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
*The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi


 If Dhur ki Bani admits the demi Gods as Gurus what would be the state of seekers and learners.One cannot discard that it is only a metaphorical use.

If that be so it is high time that SGPC should start issuing clarifications in this regard without disturbing the composition of Granth sahib and let that be maintained in the present form.

As per some post it is also not clear if the Granth that we consider as the Granth is the real Granth or is only a copy of the original.
 [/FONT]**
What is required
Unless what the Guru states is  clear these kinds of things shall be asked by many.
I may be prone to accept the logic that it is metaphorical use. But I have tried to get an answer to this question at many sites but I have not been replied satisfactorily so far. 

On one Hand we have Mool Mantra on second hand we have Guru stating that He is the creator HIMSELF. Add to this the confusion caused by the inclusion of Hindus God and Goddesses in Bani and that also in very specific and pointed terms.

Are Gurus Really Gods; if so we all shall have the concept of demi gods in Sikhism and it shall fuel up to that sikhi is a faith not understood by many as it cannot be understood.

 If after spending one complete year I do not understand Sikhism/Bani, I feel that I am not worthy of it and shall have to learn from some one who runs school in Bani like it is done in US. 


Bhul Chuk Mauf 



Today's hukumnama

*      Meeting the Guru, I have found my Beloved Lord. I have made this body and mind a sacrifice, a sacrificial offering to the Lord. Dedicating my body and mind, I have crossed over the terrifying world-ocean, and shaken off the fear of death. Drinking in the Ambrosial Nectar, I have become immortal; my comings and goings have ceased. I have found that home of celestial Samaadhi; the Name of the Lord is my only Support. Says Nanak, I enjoy peace and pleasure; I bow in reverence to the Perfect Guru. || 1 || Listen, O my friend and companion the Guru has given the Mantra of the Shabad, the True Word of God. Meditating on this True Shabad, I sing the songs of joy, and my mind is rid of anxiety. I have found that God, who never leaves; forever and ever, He sits with me. One who is pleasing to God receives true honor. The Lord God automatically blesses him with wealth. Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to such a humble being. O Lord, You bless all with Your bountiful blessings. || 2 || When it pleases You, then I am satisfied and satiated. My mind is soothed and calmed, and all my thirst is quenched. My mind is soothed and calmed, the burning has ceased, and I have found all sorts of treasures. All the Sikhs and servants partake of them; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. I have become fearless, imbued with the Love of my Lord and Master; I have shaken off the fear of death. Slave Nanak, Your humble servant, lovingly embraces Your meditation; O Lord, please be with me always. || 3 || My hopes and desires have been fulfilled, O my Lord. I am worthless, without virtue; all virtues are Yours, O Lord. All virtues are Yours, O my Lord and Master; with what mouth should I praise You? You did not consider my merits and demerits; you forgave me in an instant. I have obtained the nine treasures, congratulations are pouring in, and the unstruck melody resounds. Says Nanak, I have found my Husband Lord within my own home, and all my anxiety is forgotten. || 4 || 1 ||  

Sunday, 5th Saawan (Samvat 540 Nanakshahi)
*
Who is Guru here and who is Lord here.??????
 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Reposted.

Regards to all.!!
*


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## pk70 (Jul 20, 2008)

*I am totally lost in Guru Nanak's love, his words are my boat, my lamp in the darkness; I hear beating of drums loudly  by those who claim they had the same things Guru Nanak says, I smile at the exploitation  of centuries  and heed only to my adorable Guru's daring guidance in a country where followers  of Budha were burnt alive to eliminate his ideology to keep shop of exploitation going on. Is there other successful ways to reach to HIM? could be but why should I care when I am under the Sun. As a Sikh, if we hear the following Hukamnama of our glorious Guru, why even we heed to desparate beatings of drums*, *here is Guru's Hukam in this regard*
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
Bhairo 5th Guru. I practise not fasting, not observe I the month of Ramzan. I serve Him alone, who will save me in the end. 

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਨਾਹ ਮੈਂ (ਹਿੰਦੂ ਦੇ) ਵਰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਨਾਹ ਮੈਂ (ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਦੇ) ਰਮਜ਼ਾਨ ਦੇ ਮਹੀਨੇ (ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖੇ ਰੋਜ਼ਿਆਂ ਦਾ)। ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ (ਸਿਰਫ਼) ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਜਿਹੜਾ ਆਖ਼ਿਰ (ਹਰੇਕ ਦੀ) ਰੱਖਿਆ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।੧। 
ਏਕੁ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
The One Lord of the world is my God. I have detached from both  Hindus and Muslims. Pause. 
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! (ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਅਗਵਾਈ ਦੇ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਵਿਚ) ਮੈਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅਤੇ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਮੁਕਾ ਲਈ ਹੈ। ਮੇਰਾ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਉਹ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਹਿੰਦੂ) ਗੁਸਾਈਂ (ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ) ਅੱਲਾ (ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ)।੧।ਰਹਾਉ। 
ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥ 
I go not on pilgrimage to Mecca, nor worship I at the holies. I serve only the one Lord and not any other. 
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਮੈਂ ਨਾਹ ਕਾਬੇ ਦਾ ਹੱਜ ਕਰਨ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ (ਜਿਵੇਂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ), ਨਾਹ ਮੈਂ (ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਵਾਂਗ) ਤੀਰਥਾਂ ਤੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਨ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਇੱਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਦੂਜੇ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ (ਸਿਮਰਦਾ)।੨। 
ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥ ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥ 
I perform not Hindu worship, nor offer I Muslim prayer. Taking the One Formless Lord into my mind, I make obeisance unto Him there. 
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਮੈਂ ਨਾਹ (ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਵਾਂਗ ਵੇਦ-) ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਨਾਹ (ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਵਾਂਗ) ਨਿਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਵਸਾ ਕੇ (ਉਸ ਅੱਗੇ) ਸਿਰ ਨਿਵਾਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ।੩। 
ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥ ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥ 
I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim. My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the Lord of Hindus. 
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੫॥੩॥ 
Says Kabir, this wise utter I the truth, that meeting with the Guru the Prophet, I have realised my Lord. 
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਆਖ-(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ-ਪੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਖਸਮ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਡੂੰਘੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਪਾ ਰੱਖੀ ਹੈ।੫।੩। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਹੈ 'ਮਹਲਾ ੫'। ਪਰ ਅਖ਼ੀਰ ਤੇ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਨਾਨਕ' ਦੇ ਥਾਂ 'ਕਬੀਰ' ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਹੈ ਇਹ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਪਰਥਾਇ। ਹੁਣ ਵੇਖੋ ਇਸੇ ਰਾਗ ਵਿਚ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੰਬਰ ੭। ਉਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਹੇਠ-ਲਿਖੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨਾਲ ਰਲਾਓ: ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥... ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਪਣੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਦੀ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ।


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

*You are very fortunate Sir. But let the others who are seeking blessings , be also be blessed.

Your answers are very nice and guru Vaaks have almost made me start weeping. I quit and leave the answers to be provided by the Providence as and when He considers fit.

Regards!*


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## dalsingh (Jul 20, 2008)

From the Dasam Granth:


ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਸ ਪਰਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਨ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੩॥ 
Daas jaan kar(i) daas par(i) keejai kripaa apaar|| Haath dai raakh muh(i) man kram bachan bichaar||433||
Considering me as Thy slave, be Gracius towards me and keep Thy hand over my head and protect me with Thy mind, action, speech and thought.433.


ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ 
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal.434.


ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਹ ਮੈਂ ਕਿੰਕਰ ਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਰਖਵਾਰ ॥ ਬਾਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੫॥ 
Mahaakaal rakhvaar hamaaro|| Mahaa loh main kinkar thaaro|| Apnaa jaan karo rakhvaarr|| Baah(i) gahe kilaaj bichaar||435||
The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lort ! I am Thy slave; 


ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਮੁਝੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਰੀਐ ॥ ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਸ਼ੱਤੁ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਰੀਐ ॥ ਦੇਗ ਤੇਗ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਦੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥ ਰਾਖ ਆਪ ਮੁਹਿ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦਲੈ ॥੪੩੬॥ 
Apnaa jaan muje pratipareeai|| Chun chun shattru hamaare mareeai|| Deg teg jag mai dooo chalai|| Raakh aap muh(i) aur(u) ma dalai|| 436||
Sustain me, considering me as Thy own and destroy my enemies, picking them up; O Lord with Thy Grace, let the free kitchen and Sword (for the protection of the lowly) ever flourish and none should be able to kill me except You.436.


*
Actually the translation doesn't seem too good. Can anyone do a better job?*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 20, 2008)

_Line 1_: Oh immortal being! Let me be your slave and thus the benefactor of countless
blessings. Let your blessed hand guide me, and instill baani in my mind and body.

_Line 2_: I do not praise or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh
would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I let the thought of Vishnu or any
incarnations of Vishnu (i.e. Krishna) enter my mind. (Meaning Guru Gobind Singh Ji
never regarded Vishnu or any avatars as the supreme Lord; Akaal purakh, as he
states next.)

I know of their existence, but I do not ever worship them. May my prayers and
thoughts always be in the immaculate, holy feet of the Lord (the one and only).

_Line 3_: I pray to my protector, the one that brings death to Death (the deity ‘Klal’; which
was worshipped in the past). Oh unbreakable one, I am your slave.

Make me your slave oh Lord and watch over me. (I have come to your sanctuary) So
preserve my honour.

_Line 4_: Make me your own, and take care of me (as a mother does to a child). Pick out my
enemies one by one and kill them. (Guru Sahib refers Lust, Anger, Attachment,
Greed, and Arrogance as our enemies. As a true Sikh should not have enmity toward
any living creatures).

Let there be both plentiful food (Degh) and Weapons (Tegh) in this world. (So that
the righteous may restore justice and rule the land). As long as you; Oh Lord are my
protector, no other power can do anything to me.

(Translations from Copy of Sampuran Paat)


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 20, 2008)

ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
raam jhurai dhal maelavai anthar bal adhhikaar ||
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces. 

ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
banthar kee sainaa saeveeai man than jujh apaar ||
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war.  

ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥ 
seethaa lai gaeiaa dhehasiro lashhaman mooou saraap ||
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die.  

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥ 
naanak karathaa karanehaar kar vaekhai thhaap outhhaap ||25||
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25|| 

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
man mehi jhoorai raamachandh seethaa lashhaman jog ||
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman.

ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
hanavanthar aaraadhhiaa aaeiaa kar sanjog ||
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him.

ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥ 
bhoolaa dhaith n samajhee thin prabh keeeae kaam ||
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥ 
naanak vaeparavaahu so kirath n mittee raam ||26||
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||
~SGGS Ji p. 1412​


A little note on posting of the Dasam Granth bani, you left out the preceding tuuk, here it is:

ਤੁਮੀ ਰਾਮ ਹ੍ਵੈਕੈ ਦਸਾਗ੍ਰੀਵ ਖੰਡਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੰਸ ਕੇਸੀ ਬਿਹੰਡਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਜਾਲਪਾ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਬਿੜਾਲਾਛ ਘਾਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਸੁੰਭ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੈਸੁੰਭ ਦਾਨੋ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥੪੩੨॥
Tumiraam hvaikai dasaagriv khan?yo|| TumiKrishan hvai Kans Kesibihan?yo|| Tumijaalpaa hvai bi?aalaachh ghaayo|| TumiSunbh Naisunbh daano khapaayo||432||
Thou didst kill Ravana as Ram; Thou didst kill the demon Keshi as Krishna; Thou didst annihilate the demon Biraksha as Jalapa and Thou didst destroy the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh.432.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
Dohraa||
DOHRA

ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਸ ਪਰਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਨ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੩॥
Daas jaan kar(i) daas par(i) keejai kripaa apaar|| Haath dai raakh muh(i) man kram bachan bichaar||433||
Considering me as Thy slave, be Gracius towards me and keep Thy hand over my head and protect me with Thy mind, action, speech and thought.433.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
Chaupaee
CHUPAI

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.
​

If you add in the first tuuk, it is claiming "Thou" did kill the demons as Ram and Krishna.  *Who is this "Thou?"*



ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.  

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​


ਲੋਚਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਧਰ ਆਨਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਮ ਮੈਨਾ ॥ ਕੈਕੈ ਕਟਾਛ ਚੁਰਾਇ ਲਯੋ ਮਨ ਪੈ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਜੋਊ ਰੱਛਕ ਧੈਨਾ 
Lochan hai jin ke su prabhaa dhar aanan hai jin ko sam mainaa|| Kai-kai kataachh churaae layo man pai tin ko jooo rachchhak dhaeenaa||
They, whose eyes are like lotus and the remaining body like the god of love, their mind has been stolen by Krishna the protector of cows, with signs;
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 763​


ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.  

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.  

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ 
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||  

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.  

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ 
aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3|| 

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ 
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606
​



ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਾਬੋਲਾ ਪਿਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਧਨ ਵੇਲ ਵਧੰਦੀ ॥ 
har raam raam maerae baabolaa pir mil dhhan vael vadhhandhee ||
The Lord, Raam, Raam, is All-pervading, O my father. Meeting her Husband Lord, the soul-bride blossoms forth like the flourishing vine.
~SGGS Ji p. 79​



ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥ 
pehil purasaabiraa ||
First of all, there was only the Primal Being.  

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥ 
athhon purasaadhamaraa ||
From that Primal Being, Maya was produced. 

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥ 
asagaa as ousagaa ||
All that is, is His.
~SGGS Ji p. 693​



ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created. 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. 

ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
*dhas avathaaree* raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.

ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.  

ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​


And where it says "I do not adore Ganesha, I do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu and I do not recognize them, my consciousness is absorped at the feet of Supreme Brahman."  The tuuk is subordinating first the demons to the power and might of Ram and Krishna, and then subordinating Ram and Krishna to the Supreme Brahman which is nirguna pervading within all created forms and manifesting as powerful Jyot in sargun forms of das avtaaras.  This is the teaching found in Vedas and Upanishads, that the nirguna is the Supreme unmanifested, formless God.  And that this formlessness is incomprehensible to ordinary human consciousness, so sargun manifestation was needed for people to be able to perceive, chant a name, etc.  So look at the names for God in Vaheguru Gurmantara. 


"The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence." ~Bhagavat Gita 7-24​


ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਸੇਵਦੇ ਅੰਤੁ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਨ ਲਹੀਆ ॥ 
eesar brehamaa saevadhae anth thinhee n leheeaa ||
Those who serve Shiva and Brahma do not find the limits of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 516​


"All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people." ~Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21​

"The devotee interested in pure devotion to the Lord, and initiated with Vaisnava mantra should never worship Ganesa and other devatas." ~Padma Purana​

"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the lokas of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme loka." ~Bhagavat Gita 7:23​


ekam sad viprā bahudhā vadantya
"Truth is One, but sages call it by many names." 
~Veda,1:164:46​


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥ 
nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.  

ਏਕਹਿ ਏਕ ਬਖਾਨਨੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ 
eaekehi eaek bakhaanano naanak eaek anaek ||1||
Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 250​


"The Lord, as Supersoul, pervades all things, just as fire permeates wood, and so He appears to be of many varieties, though He is the absolute one without a second." ~Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1 Chapter 2 Verse 32​


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
anthar baahar har prabh eaeko dhoojaa avar n koee ||
Inwardly and outwardly, they saw only the One Lord God; for them there was no other second. ~SGGS Ji p. 445​


brahma satyam jagan mithya
jivo brahmaiva napara

Brahman is the Reality, the universe is an illusion,
The living being is Brahman alone, none else.
~Shankara​


ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
satijugi satigur *vaasadayv* vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.  

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ । 
kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.  

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥ 
jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​


Consider the nirguna and sarguna when trying to reconcile the tuuks of Gurbani below.



ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. 

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

*ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ* ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
*baasudhaev* niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. 
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​


> Vasudeva: (Sanskrit: वसुदेव) "the root 'vas' means to dwell or to shine."  The indwelling Lord of all beings, Sri Krsna who resides everywhere and in all things.  Lord Krishna, as the son of Vasudeva, the Lord whose manifestation all this world is.





ਨ ਸੰਖੰ ਨ ਚਕ੍ਰੰ ਨ ਗਦਾ ਨ ਸਿਆਮੰ ॥ 
n sankhan n chakran n gadhaa n siaaman ||
God has no conch-shell, no religious mark, no paraphernalia; he does not have blue skin.

ਅਸ੍ਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੰ ਰਹੰਤ ਜਨਮੰ ॥ 
ascharaj roopan rehanth janaman ||
His Form is Wondrous and Amazing. He is beyond incarnation.

ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ ਕਥੰਤਿ ਬੇਦਾ ॥ 
naeth naeth kathhanth baedhaa ||
The Vedas say that He is not this, and not that.
~SGGS Ji p. 1359​



ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​




> In the years after the passing of Guru Gobind Singh, the Sikhs were engaged in battles and struggles, due to which they could not prepare the Dasam Granth in proper form. With the beginning of the *Singh Sabha movement* in the late nineteenth century, scholars directed their attention toward the religious scriptures and Sikh history. _The Gurmat Granth Parcharak Sabha Amritsar collected 32 copies of the Dasam Granth. After five years of deliberations in the second floor of Sri Akal Takht, Amritsar, these eminent scholars clarified the differences in the birs and published their report in 1897 A.D. In accordance with that report, the present form of the Dasam Granth came into existence._
> The Dasam Granth: Library: 1897 Report


Many Sikhs think the Shri Dasam Granth has been collectively put together by Hindus antagonistic to the Sikh Panth.  The reality is the present compilation was put together by Singh Sabhia reformers.  It's entirely possible for interpretive error or bias in translation to occur, but until some years or decades more pass and the dialect in which Dasam Granth bani is written in can be more commonly analyzed, we have to accept the version we have.  I am no scholar of Braj so I can't refute anything.  But I do know that from the original birs, there are 32 known copies with some variation and differences.  I trust the scholars of Singh Sabhia were extremely qualified, but it does suggest possibility of some degree of inadvertent bias, as the primary motive of Singh Sabhia reform was to emphasize Sikh identity and independance from Hindu religion.




> Sanatan Singh Sabha is the original Singh Sabha formed in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar [1] The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism as Sikhs to be a wider denomination of Sanatan Dharma by one who practices karma and bhakti [of God] in any way for the achievement of Moksha, or spiritual liberation.
> 
> As a purely political reaction to the formation of the Sanatan Singh Sabha, a second Singh Sabha was formed and named the Tat Khalsa ('True' Khalsa) by The Governing British Administration based at Lahore in 1879 [also called Lahore Singh Sabha]. The British Raj utilized the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia Sikhs to apply their ‘divide and rule’ policy which sought to negate Sanatan Sikhism in the name of ‘reform’ whereas Sanatan Sikhism is predominantly inclusive, the Tat Khalsa is not.
> 
> ...





ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God. 

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. 

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3|| 

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. 

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. 

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| 

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. 

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. 

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5|| 

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God. 

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ 
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor. 

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| 

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent. 

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ 
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed. 

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7|| 

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven. 

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise. 

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| 

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading. 

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord. 

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| 

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. 

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| 

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​




> "Keshava is another name of Krishna, which means the One with beautiful hair."
> More - Spiritual names meaning





ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:    

ਮਨ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ *ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ* ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥   
man piaariaa jeeo mithraa *gobindh naam* samaalae ||
O dear beloved mind, my friend, reflect upon the Name of the Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 79​



ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਹੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੋਪਾਲ *ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਾਧੋ* ॥੧॥ 
binavanth naanak karahu kirapaa *gopaal gobindh* maadhho ||1||
Prays Nanak, please be Merciful to me, O Cherisher of the world, Lord of the Universe, Lord of wealth. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 248​




> *Govinda and Gopāla are names of Krishna*, referring to his youthful occupation as a cowherd.  Both names translate to "cowherd". Sanskrit go means "cow"; pāla and vinda form tatpurusha compounds, literally translating to *"finder of cows" *and *"protector of cows"*, respectively.  The story of how Krishna was given the name Govinda is described in detail in the Vishnu Purana. After lifting Govardhan hill to protect the villagers and cows of Vrindavan, the lord of devas Indra awarded him the title.
> Govinda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




ਤੂੰ *ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ*ੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਜੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਣ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣਾ ॥ 
thoon *paarabreham* baeanth baeanth jee thaerae kiaa gun aakh vakhaanaa ||
You are the Supreme Lord God, Limitless and Infinite. What Virtues of Yours can I speak of and describe?
~SGGS Ji p. 11​




> "Brahman is the Absolute Truth: it is pure existence, consciousness and knowledge. In this sense, the attributeless Brahman is called Parabrahman, where the Sanskrit prefix para- denotes "ultimate". It is the supreme bliss. Parabrahman does not exist (sic); it is existence itself. It is not all-knowing (sic); it is knowledge itself. It is the object of meditation, rather than the object of worship. According to the probably most influential Hindu philosophy: Advaita Vedanta, nothing in the universe truly exists except Parabrahman...
> 
> Thus, Brahman is conceived of as the very essence of existence and knowledge, Which pervades the entire universe, including every living being."
> Shri Sanatan Mandir






ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ 
jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||
We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 20​



ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
guramukh varathai sabh aapae sachaa guramukh oupaae samaavaniaa ||1||
The Gurmukh knows that the True Lord is all-pervading. The Gurmukh understands creation and merger. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 117​



ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
raj gun tham gun sath gun keheeai eih thaeree sabh maaeiaa ||
Raajas, the quality of energy and activity; Taamas, the quality of darkness and inertia; and Satvas, the quality of purity and light, are all called the creations of Maya, Your illusion.

ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
chouthhae padh ko jo nar cheenhai thinh hee param padh paaeiaa ||2||
That man who realizes the fourth state - he alone obtains the supreme state. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1123​


Chauthaa Pada or Turiya Avasthaa:
The Mandukya Upanishad defines turiya as: "The fourth state is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world."

The Bhagavata Purana, verse 11.15.16[3] describes Bhagavan as turiyakhye (the fourth), defined in the Bhagavad Gita, verse 7.3 as: "Within the material world the Lord appears as the three Visnus (gunas). The original form of the Lord is another form still. He is beyond material nature and thus known as the fourth."
Turiya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> From this comes Sâttva and then Râjas and Brahmâ, Visnu and Mahes’a are of the nature of the three gunas. Brahmâ has the Râjo guna in Him preponderating; in Visnu, the Sâttva guna preponderates and in Mahes’a, the Cause of all Causes, is said to reside the Tâmo guna. Brahmâ is known as of the Gross Body; Visnu is known as of the Subtle Body; and Rudra is known as of the Causal Body and I am known as Turîya, transcending the Gunas. This Turîya Form of Mine is called the state of equilibrium of the Gunas. It is the Inner Controller of all. Beyond this there is another state of Mine which is called the Formless Brahmâ (Brâhman having no Forms). Know, verily, that my Forms are two, as they are with or without attributes (Saguna or Nirguna). That which is beyond Mâyâ and the Mâyic qualities is called Nirguna (without Prâkritic attributes) and that which is within Mâyâ is called Saguna. O Indra! After creating this universe, I enter within that as the Inner Controller of all and it is I that impel all the Jîvas always to their due efforts and actions. Know, verily, that It is I that engage Brahmâ, Visnu and Rudra, the causes of the several works of creation, preservation and destruction of this universe (they are performing their functions by My Command). ~Srimad Devi Bhagavatam, bk 12, ch. 8
> The Highest Shakti (Shrimad Devi Bhagavatam, Book Twelve, Chapter 8)




~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## Sikh80 (Jul 20, 2008)

*Hinduism the mother of sikhism: Is it True*
* Dear Dalsingh/pk70 ji and all my welll wishers

* *I am grateful to dalsingh and Harjas ji for her valuable contribution and above all to aad ji for helping me in her own ways that even cannot be acknowledged.
I do acknowledge with with gratitude the contribution of namjap ji.
May he/she be Blessed.

 We are all Sikhs or are becoming. If a member is slow and is requesting for information or have a query it is your duty as senior members to reply to that so that the doubts are removed and things are worked out in amicable manner.But then we have choices that are governed.It is your prerogative to answer the doubts or leave them aside simply because the word Hindu is not palatable to sikhs. There is a uniformity of opinion esp. of the sikhs living in UK.
 I am quoting the following from:*
*Shri Sanatan Mandir*
*
The variuos satar of Bani have been inserted to show the similarities to the extent of almost cent percent between the two.*

*Hinduism ( Hindu Dharma, also known as Sanatana Dharma) is a religion that originated on the Indian subcontinent. Hinduism encompasses many religious beliefs, traditions, practices, and denominations. Most Hindus believe in a One Supreme Cosmic Spirit called Brahman that may be worshiped in many forms, represented by individual deities such as Vishnu, Shiva and Shakti. 

This has been admitted so in the Bani as well.
* 

guru eIsru guru gorKu brmw guru pwrbqI mweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

gurmuiK nwdM gurmuiK vydM gurmuiK rihAw smweI ] (2-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

*The Persian term Hindu is derived from Sindhu (Sanskrit: Sindhu, i.e. the Indus River in particular, or any river in general). In the Rig Veda�the foundation of Hinduism�the Indo-Aryans mention their land as Sapta Sindhu (the land of the seven rivers of the northwestern Indian subcontinent, one of them being the Indus). This corresponds to Hapta-Hendu in the Avesta (Vendidad: Fargard 1.18)-the sacred scripture of Zoroastrianism of Iran. The term was used for people who lived in the Indian subcontinent around or beyond the Sindhu. *
*
* 
*The Persian term was borrowed by the Ancient Greeks as Indos, Indikos "Indian", from which was derived the name India, Indianus in Latin. Hinduism centers around a variety of practices that are meant to help one experience the Divinity that is everywhere and realize the true nature of the Self and is beyond description. *
*
Bani admits so in the following as well.There are many other tuks that state the same thing at various other places as well.*

jy hau jwxw AwKw nwhI khxw kQnu n jweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
  Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

bolY eIsru siq srUpu ] (952-14, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
  Says Eeshar, the Lord is the embodiment of Truth.
 
prm qMq mih ryK n rUpu ]2] (952-14, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
  The supreme essence of reality has no shape or form. ||2||

*It is the same recognition of the fact stated above. What is the true nature or the self has been answered by the bani in the following format.*

bolY crptu siq srUpu ] (953-1, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
  Says Charpat, God is the embodiment of Truth;

prm qMq mih ryK n rUpu ]5] (953-1, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
  the supreme essence of reality has no shape or form. ||5


*Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world, with approximately 1 billion adherents (2005 figure), of whom about 890 million live in India. Other countries with large Hindu populations include Nepal, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Malaysia. Considered to be the oldest extant religion in the world, Hinduism has no single founder and is based on a number of religious texts developed over many centuries that contain spiritual insights and practical guidance for religious life. Among such texts, the Vedas are the most ancient, and theoretically the most sacred and supreme scriptural authority. Other important scriptures include Upanishads (which are part of the Vedas), the eighteen Puranas and the epics: the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. The Bhagavad Gita, which is contained within the Mahabharata, is a widely studied scripture that is seen as summarizing the spiritual teachings of the Vedas.*
*Core Concepts*

*Modern Hinduism evolved from the ancient Vedic tradition (Vaidika parampara). Prominent themes in Hinduism include Dharma (individual ethics, duties and obligations), Samsara (rebirth), Karma (right action), and Moksha (salvation). Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism all share some traits in common with Hinduism (which is sometimes specifically called Orthodox Hinduism when contrasted with its associated, but non-Vedic faiths), as all these religions originated in India, and all focus on self-improvement with the ultimate aim of attaining personal spiritual experience (recognizing the "personal" as an integral element of the universal).*
*Brahman*

*According to the monotheistic and pantheistic theologies of Hinduism, God (the Supreme Being) is, in the highest sense, One: beyond form, infinite, and eternal. God is changeless and is the very source of consciousness. Swami Vivekananda*

*Bani admits the above as well:*

srby smwxw Awip suAwmI gurmuiK prgtu hoieAw ] (542-12, ibhwgVw, mÚ 5)
  The Lord and Master Himself is pervading everywhere; through the Guru, He is revealed.


jh dyKw qh riv rhy isv skqI kw mylu ] (21-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

[Image not produced here]
*Swami Vivekananda, shown here practicing meditation, was a Hindu sanyasin (monk) recognized for his inspiring lectures on spiritual topics such as bhakti yoga, karma yoga, raja yoga, and jnana yoga. He founded the Ramakrishna Mission, which today conducts religious teaching and philanthropic activities worldwide.*

*God is beyond time, space, and causation and yet permeates everything and every being. *
*God is beyond gender.* 

jil Qil mhIAil pUirAw rivAw ivic vxw ] (133-13, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The Lord is totally pervading the water, the land, and all space. He is contained in the forests as well.


nwnk iqsu bilhwrxY jil Qil mhIAil soie ]1] (276-18, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
O Nanak, I am a sacrifice to the One, who pervades the waters, the lands, the sky and all space. ||1||

*When God is thought of as this infinite principle, God is called Brahman . Brahman is the indescribable, inexhaustible, omniscient, omnipresent, original, first, eternal and absolute principle�the Supreme Cosmic Spirit�who is without a beginning, without an end , who is hidden in all and who is the cause, source, material and effect of all creation known, unknown and yet to happen in the entire universe. Brahman is the Absolute Truth: it is pure existence, consciousness and knowledge.* 

kQnu n jwie AkQu suAwmI sdkY jwie nwnku vwirAw ]5]1]3] (81-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
  Our Indescribable Lord and Master cannot be described. Nanak is devoted, forever a sacrifice to Him. ||5||1||3||

jwnnhwr pRBU prbIn ] (269-8, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
  The Omniscient Lord God is the Knower of all.

sB jg mih vrqY eyko soeI ] (1054-4, mwrU, mÚ 3)
  The One Lord is pervasive throughout all the world.

qU sdw slwmiq inrMkwr ]16] (3-18, jpu, mÚ 1)
*You, Eternal and Formless One! ||16||*


inrguxu srguxu hir hir myrw koeI hY jIau Awix imlwvY jIau ]1] (98-2,)
  My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||

sBnI GtI shu vsY sh ibnu Gtu n koie ] (1412-1, slok vwrW qy vDIk, mÚ 1)


*God the Cosmic Husband dwells within all hearts; without Him, there is no heart at all.*

*In this sense, the attributeless Brahman is called Parabrahman, where the Sanskrit prefix para- denotes "ultimate". It is the supreme bliss. Parabrahman does not exist (sic); it is existence itself. *

*It is not all-knowing (sic); it is knowledge itself. It is the object of meditation, rather than the object of worship.* 

AgY swhu sujwxu hY lYsI vsqu smwil ]1] (22-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  In the next world, the All-knowing Merchant will take this object and care for it. ||1||

BweI ry rwmu khhu icqu lwie ] (22-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
  O Siblings of Destiny, chant the Lord's Name, and focus your consciousness on Him.

*According to the probably most influential Hindu philosophy: Advaita Vedanta, nothing in the universe truly exists except Parabrahman. As the Supreme Spirit, it is also called Paramatman. The Hindu scriptures declare that Brahman (the impersonal God) is beyond description, and can be understood only through direct spiritual experience. Nevertheless, for the benefit of others, the ancient Hindu sages who experienced Brahman attempted to describe their experiences, as recorded in the ancient Vedic texts known as the Upanishads. Several maha-vakyas, or great sayings, indicate what the principle of Brahman is: *


*Brahman is knowledge",      (prajnanam brahma)*
*The Self (or the Soul) is      Brahman " (ayam atma brahma)*
*I am Brahman" (aham      brahmasmi)*
*You are that" (tat tvam      asi),*
*All this that we see in the      world is Brahman" (sarvam khalv idam brahma),*
*Brahman is existence,      consciousness, and bliss" (sachchidananda brahma).*
 *Thus, Brahman is conceived of as the very essence of existence and knowledge, Which pervades the entire universe, including every living being. The goal of Hinduism is to somehow "wake up," and realize one's own connection to the divine reality that may be called Brahman or God. Because God is everywhere, God is also present within each living being.*

kwieAw ngir bsq hir suAwmI hir inrBau inrvYru inrMkwrw ] (720-4, bYrwVI,)
In the body-village, the Lord Master abides; the Lord is without fear, without vengeance, and without form.


hir inkit bsq kCu ndir n AwvY hir lwDw gur vIcwrw ]1] (720-4, bYrwVI, 4)
The Lord is dwelling near at hand, but He cannot be seen. By the Guru's Teachings, the Lord is obtained. ||1||

  And

kwieAw AMdir gVu kotu hY siB idsMqr dysw ] (955-1, rwmklI, mÚ 2)
  Deep within the body is the fortress of the Lord, and all lands and countries.

  And

sBu ikCu Gr hI mwih hY vfBwgI lIqw ] (955-16, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
Everything is in the home of the self within; only the very fortunate obtain it.

*Nutshell* 
*The essence in Sikhism is Guru’s teachings and the another concept of paramount importance is of Naam that is likely to be misunderstood in absence of any standardized definition attached to it.It is true it is a matter of realization .But at many places it appears that Naam is given by the Lord Himself. Even the ardas[prayer] contains the request to the Lord for ‘blessing Sikhs with naam.'

 It would imply that Sikhs do not know the essence of the things on the basis of which it is alienated from Hinduism. I have already given the part of ardas in Gurmukhi. If Amrit Sanchar ceremony gives ‘wahegur’ as the naam then why should Ardas contain this. Naam should be known .It appears that Naam that is being talked about in The Granth sahib is something different , though it may not be so in reality. But the doubt persists. And who will remove the doubt as to what exactly is Naam. It is after making self-enquiry I am putting up this question. The Guru Mantra is given and explained by Gurdas ji and not by Gurus. It is of significance as the entire sikhi is based on Simran and nam jap.*

*Some guru-sikhs should throw some light on this. I shall be satisfied with an answer that my spiritual state is not high enough that I cannot make out the meaning. But I have been posting and re-posing the questions that are not attended to and that gives rise to the opinion that the posts are either not taken seriously or ,I have the presumption to make, that most are sailing in the same Boat  and that should not be the case at all.*


*The material above is taken form the site:*
*Shri Sanatan Mandir*

*I have just tried to fit in the lines from Bani and nothing else. This is not to prove anything at all. All that is stated is to straighten out things  as we all have the right to practice sikhi.

It is humbly stated that we also believe that all that matters to us is also Guru Sahibs. But it does not mean that we start hating the religion or the faith that has given or helped us to understand the things. *

*I am also a sikh like most of you are. *
*
May be you are a better sikh and I may have to improve upon and we all learn with time and mistakes. I do reserve the right to put across the things that I do not understand and would welcome anything that is a help. 

 You are avoiding posts as if you will be discussing with someone who is an outcaste. Sikhi tells us that we are all part and parcel of the same. Hence why be prejudicial. I have doubts and hence the queries. Surely, you must have taken some help of some one during your learning period.*

*Yes, Dasam Granth may kindly not be referred to and we should focus on Guru Granth Sahib and that I believe should qualify for bani Nirankaar hey.You are free to correct me. 

I also have the belief that these are the common doubts of many who study the things with eyes open and mind clear. Many may not speak,Those who speak meet my fate. But that is hardly a solution or a solution to some hard questions. Sikhism may be independent faith and I can take up the opposite seat but till the ground I hold is not firm how can I say that the other faith is baseless. We avoid these comments and in the matter of God each and every faith should have something clear and special.if it does not then it hardly qualifies for the same.

No wonder that sikhism is only an insider game and is not popular that it should have been. Where the petitioner begs for an answer and the sikhs do not bother , how can that faith be practised in peace. Is it such an individualistic faith. ? If we do not share right now and when prayed for we shall share when other will sit on us and tell us the meaning that we are seeking now.
One can for see the future of the faith where the genuine questions and doubts are bye passed for some better reasons.

I do not want to visit any Hindu for clarifications on Sikhism. 

**I am grateful to Harjas ji for bringing out clarifications in the most lucid manner and her  eforts are very much appreciated.
*


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## Astroboy (Jul 21, 2008)

> It is pointed out in Chapter 15, he who knows God, is a knower of the Ved.


Tulsi Sahib has said in this context:We may read the Vedas, the Puranas, and master the Viyakrans 
  and to what end? 
Far from gaining anything, we get lost in the wilderness of the words, 
  losing our very soul; 
A parrot-like repetition would never draw the spirit out of body consciousness 
  and contact it with the Word.​The human mind works in diverse ways. It is an ever-active instrument. At times, it recalls the past, however distant, from the depth of the unconscious. This is the work of the mnemonic mind, technically called Chit. The unconscious is a great reservoir or storehouse of all the impressions that one gathers in one's lifetime and carries with him from life to life. Some of these impressions keep filtering through the subconscious and appear on the surface of the conscious, with or without any effort on the part of an individual. These are the recollections, whether recalled or automatic, as the case may be. As these pop up in one's head from the unknown to the known, one begins to dwell on them. This dwelling process or the association with the past events, incidents, and experiences is called Manan or the thinking faculty of the mind. As one takes into consideration the pros and cons of the matter, he begins to reason out and enters into what is called ratiocination (reasoning faculty of the mind), intellect, or Buddhi. The individual understanding of the wisdom involved gives one a sense of personality called ego or Ahankar.

Once I had an opportunity to attend a seminar on the Gita. This memorable sermon, like other scriptures, is full of esoteric teachings which a layman cannot understand so easily on the level of the intellect unless explained by an Awakened Soul well versed both with the theory and practice of Paravidya the knowledge of the Beyond. One Who has an actual experience of self-realization and God-realization can explain lucidly things which otherwise baffle human understanding. All the scriptures sing the glory of such an individual Master-soul or Guru Who can give an actual demonstration of what He says as evam brahma (here is Brahma). In the Gita itself (Ch. 4-6), an emphasis is laid on finding a man of realization before one can know of the God-path. It is He Who can explain what it is, Who actually puts one on the path, and can safely and successfully lead the aspirant to the goal. The Gita, for example, tells us that the God-way starts from a point between and behind the eyes. So far so good. Now, where exactly that point lies and how one can reach it and penetrate through it is something that cannot be explained and done away with. It is a subject of practical significance, for the spirit is to be led to it so as to have a peep inside. We cannot do this with all our learning and wisdom when, for ages upon ages, we have become accustomed to flow externally into the world of senses.

It is a subject that is abstract and abstruse and requires tapping within. The word images simply convey the sense but cannot actually give the actual experience. During the course of the discussion, a Pundit (learned in scriptural lore) came to the pulpit and asked the audience to get ready for the God-vision that he was going to present. By his sound logic and learning, he kept the audience spellbound; but beyond giving a word picture, however beautiful it might have sounded, he could not actually give a demonstration of Reality. Learning, as you know, is nothing but inferential knowledge. It appeals only to human feelings and emotions. All said and done, we end by saying: "Where there is nothing, there is God." As the great Irish dramatist, W. B. Yeats, puts it, or as we read in the scriptures, "God is wondrously wonderful." Both these statements are correct as far as they go, but neither gives us a firsthand experience of nor brings us any the nearer to God. Thus, we see that one cannot take us further than where he has himself reached. An intellectual giant is as much within the range of his senses and mind as any of us. One who has not crossed the mental zone cannot possibly take us out of that. We have, no doubt, to start with reading, writing, and thinking. This is just an elementary step. The sacred books are our greatest treasure. We need them. We can read them but may not understand them fully. They do contain gems of spiritual value, but we are not equipped to evaluate them properly and reach their true import. On the other hand, it is the Man of experience and realization Who is competent to explain what is contained therein, for He speaks from actual experience of His own, similar in broad lines to those ancient writers who traversed the path in days gone by.

It is perception alone that inspires a person. An inspired song is much more than mere poetry, for it has an essence of his very being in it. We do feel that God is All-Pervading. Yes, it is so. But a feelingful reference alone does not convey the real Truth: It is just a blind man's statement. We know the anecdote of four blind men who wanted to know what an elephant was.

As their statements were based on individual feelings, they failed to describe what the animal was actually like. This is how errors creep in when we hear the account of God from those who have not experienced the Spirit and Power of God. Each one talks from his limited knowledge, and thus we get conflicting views of God-knowledge. A man of realization, on the other hand, knows how to reconcile these apparent contradictions which are just on the surface because of each person's limited knowledge. The basic truth being the same, an Awakened Soul goes to the root of the matter, explaining the various inconsistencies arising out of individual limitations. Herein lies the great hiatus between the statements based on feelings and emotions and those arising from actual perception.

Let us consider the matter from another angle. God is One. He works differently on different levels. To some He appears as Brahman, the Creator. To others, as sustainer He assumes the form of Vishnu. And to those who look upon His destructive power, He is symbolized Shiva. Thus, we see the society split into different sects, each at war with the other. The position may be likened to a great powerhouse generating electricity. It is the same power which at one place works as a heating apparatus, and at another is used in the manufacture of huge blocks of ice. One who is not conversant with the alpha and omega of electricity cannot possibly understand the opposing functions that the same power performs. The real nature of a thing is hidden in the thing itself like fire in wood, butter in milk, or scent in a rose. We are dealing with the mystery of life. We want to know what life is and how it enlivens the material masks we have put on. What is the source from whence life springs and how it works on different levels of existence on the earth plane? We are all living on the plane of senses and are experiencing life with the help of sense-organs and mind. All these instruments are limited in their nature and do not give us a correct answer to our problems of life. True knowledge is an essence of the soul and is independent of the mind and senses. Unless we are able to get a mind-out-of-body experience, we cannot have a firsthand experience of the life-impulse working in and around us in its fullness.

This is why we find in the Vedas: "Truth is one but sages have described It variously." The moment we try to grasp Truth, It eludes and we are left with nothing but mere words to describe Reality. In Brihdernaik Upanishad, it is said that to bring God within the ambit of the intellect is as difficult as to quench thirst by liquor or to get fat or tallow out of sand. A Saint has put it beautifully: "One cannot comprehend Him through reason, even if one reasoned for ages."     Spirituality is not a subject of thinking mind nor of reasoning intellect. Reasoning is both a help and bar. Reasoning, as said before, brings us to a negative plane when we begin to think of Reality as neti, neti. .... it is not this, not this. What then is it? For this we have no positive answer. And there cannot be any answer at all in any language whatsoever. It can be answered only by a tongueless tongue or a speechless speech. It is an unwritten law and an unspoken language to be known by the soul in a flight of the alone, to the alone. How to have this sublime vision of the Invisible? It is possible only when the senses are subdued, the mind is at rest, and the intellect, too, is stabilized. In other words, it is an out-of-body experience. This is something rare. A Perfect Being can give us a right understanding and a right insight. Without this basic righteousness, there is no way out. All surface differences vanish into airy nothings when we get inner perception. 
    We have before us the problem of Grihast/Tyag--life of a householder versus a renunciate. Some believe that God can be sought and practiced by a householder, while others maintain that a life in the wilderness is a sine qua non for God-realization. But the troth is that neither of these two states is of any avail without right understanding and insight. In this connection, the scriptures tell us: "One cannot come by happiness either in one's home or in quitting. the home." Real happiness is a state of the mind and does not depend upon one's environments. Where then is it to be found? We have to condition our mind into a state that leads to happiness.


The truth of the matter is that there is some Creator Who has created the universe. And we call Him and worship Him by so many words: Ram, Allah, God, and the like. These are mere names that we have given to that Power. That Power is One and only One, no matter what and how we may call It. To get out of this rigmarole of nomenclature, the ancients began to adore Him as "Adoration to Thee, O Thou the Nameless." This then is the correct attitude. It is the Nameless Who is to be worshipped and worshipped in spirit. The devotees of the Nameless and the impersonal began to personify the Spirit and Power of God by giving Him names based on the various attributes of that Power. This was quite an easy approach to God Power. The All-Pervading came to be known as "RAM." The Source of all creation was proclaimed as Vishva-Amber or Bishamber. As an All-Absorbing Power, He came to be known as Krishna. This is how the various cults came into being and social formations sprang up. There is nothing wrong in these social groupings the object of each being to take persons from the line of least resistance to the pinnacle of Godly glory of the Nameless. But unfortunately, we are caught in the social web and find ourselves as tightly bound to cults and creeds of our own making, forgetting the one Reality.

Thus, we see that the aim and object of all the cults and creeds are to lead man from the personal to the impersonal; but whether they succeed or not is a different thing. Spirituality, however, is not bound with religious groupings or occupational pursuits. Ravidas, a cobbler, had as much a right to Spirituality as Kabir, the weaver; Namdev, the calico printer; or Tulsi Sahib, a Brahmin. The social divisions are all man-made. So are our social religions. God made man after His own fashion. And man in his search for God tried to personify God and to monopolize Him. The Brahmins were the first to lay claim to Brahma-Vidya or the Divine Knowledge that would not be imparted to other classes. Thus came into existence different social orders on an artificial basis with formations degenerating into stagnation and stagnation, in turn, resulting in deterioration. Now, you can see for yourself what man has made of man. The embodied soul has come to identify itself with body alone. The human body made as the veritable temple of God is now a temple without God. Are not we all children of the same God? We are all fashioned in the same way both internally and externally. We have been provided with a wonderful house in which to live. And this house is subject to disease and decay as any other material thing. We are being driven outward through the senses into the fields of sense enjoyments. This is the greatest ailment and is common to all of us. Seeing we see but do not perceive. With all our learning and knowledge, we are ignorant of Reality. As we have not developed inner vision, we see things through colored glasses of the mind. This is the crux of the problem. With blinkers on either side, we do not see anything except what comes under our very nose. This is called individual thinking apart from cosmic thought that takes into account the Divine Plan governing the whole universe. We have, therefore, to pause and ponder as to where we are going. Are we on the right path? If not, how are we to turn aright? The social orders do not come in our way. They, too, have their own purpose. The society, too, is to be run on sound lines. This is the ethical side of the problem. But this is not all. Within us there is the inner man the soul or spirit. We have to attend to the needs of the spirit as well. Man does not live by bread alone. We look well after our physical and intellectual needs. But what of the spirit? We never had an occasion to look inward nor have time to do so. This is the most important part of our being and yet we ignore it the most. For this we will have to rise above body-consciousness so as to become self-conscious. Self-realization is the first thing and the last in our development.

Truth is not so difficult as some of us have made It, and most of us have come to believe it so. All this is because of the lack of practical experience on the part of our preachers. Preaching has unfortunately become a profession, a paid profession. We presume and assume many things of which we have no real knowledge. A blind man cannot lead the blind. All their fiery speeches have not a spark of real fire in them. They speak on the level of the mind and intellect without any real knowledge and firsthand experience of Truth, with the result that they start beating about the bush. Instead of making Reality easily intelligible, they make it more difficult to understand. In their enthusiasm, they begin to interpret the text in so many different ways. Bookish knowledge is all wilderness unless one has known and experienced the hidden Truth which the sacred books pronounce. The Divine wisdom as contained in the scriptures is called Guptbani, or the exposition of the hidden Truths, to which their writers had an inner access. About this unspoken language or Guptbani, it is said:This then is the grand Truth which we have to understand and practice in our daily life. Who can initiate us into the mysteries of the Holy Word? None but a Word-personified Saint. The Word is the only Truth (Sat), while all else in the world is a mere shadow of the Word. And shadow without the substance has no reality in it. We have, therefore, to contact Truth. This contact with Truth is called Satsang. Who is to give us this contact? As said above, it is possible to get to it through the instrumentality of One Who Himself is one with Truth (Sat Saroop Word-made-flesh). This is real Satsang. The wise and the learned may be conversant with sacred texts so far as language goes but cannot dip into the deepest depths lying much below the surface; and, therefore, our association with them does not and cannot give us right understanding nor any contact with the Truth of which they speak. It is nothing but a propaganda work undertaken as a means of livelihood. One may earn his living by plowing land and another may do so by plowing books. Light comes from light and life from life. One who himself is living in darkness of the dead material world cannot take us out into the light of God in us no matter whether we are Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, or Christians. God's Light is the life of all and we live by It. We have to apprehend It at a level higher than that of our physical being.

A man may be a Brahmchari (a student of Brahm-Vidya) or a Jatadhari (one with unkempt long hair) or a recluse living in a forest cave; it makes no difference at all. Man is man, gifted with body, mind, and soul the all-pervading soul, refulgent in one and all alike. All of us are conscious entities depending upon the Spirit and Power of God within each and every being, human or otherwise. Just consider that we are dwellers in a prison-house with nine portals all flung open. Can we escape from this prison-house if we may choose to do so? No, we cannot however hard we may try. There is a Controlling Power in us which is keeping the body and soul together for an allotted span of time. We escape from it only when the Controlling Power withdraws from within us. This Power is our mainstay. It is only the knowledge of God Power that makes known to us everything, leaving nothing else to be known. To know the True One truly should be our only aim. This is called right understanding of the human. He who understands rightly would begin to think rightly, speak rightly, and act rightly. Righteousness in living prepares the ground for a higher life--life above the senses and mind. All this and much more can be achieved in the human life which is a rare blessing. We can solve the riddle of life right now and here. All promises in the future to come will not be of any avail. "Trust no future however pleasant" is what the sages tell us. We have a golden opportunity to come in actual contact with Truth.

Kirpal Singh


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## dalsingh (Jul 21, 2008)

OK, respectfully. 

People please try and condense your posts. Massive ones are hard to follow. Lets keep the discussion tight.


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2008)

dalsingh said:


> OK, respectfully.
> 
> People please try and condense your posts. Massive ones are hard to follow. Lets keep the discussion tight.



Good try!


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## dalsingh (Jul 21, 2008)

Harjas

You never addressed my point about historical, sociological factors influencing Sikhi. Are you suggesting that this "sanatan dharm" is able to transcend such influences?

Also what about the very decisions made by the Gurus and later by Singhs in influential positions, these too influenced the practice and development of Sikhi. 

Many of these were not rooted in any "sanatan dharam" but in the context of the situation Sikhs found themselves in. It is simplistic to think that Sikhism is a resurrection of an ancient Indian belief system. Sikhism was more a product of its time than any such ancient system, even if parallels can be seen between the two. 

Another fact you need to consider is that by the mid 1700s the majority of Sikhs were simple rustics, who would not have an indepth understanding of theology. These were essentially warriors and although there were some that did explore the religious texts in depth, the majority would have been reciting by rote. 

Also how would you explain Sikhisms political dimensions according to your theory. Since the inception of the Khalsa, this has been a major element of the Sikh nation. How would you explain this?

Keep your response short and sweet!


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## Sikh80 (Jul 21, 2008)

Respected dalsingh ji,

You may carry on with that you are doing but kindly try to answer some of the points raised in various posts.


so jwgY ijsu siqguru imlY ] (1128-5, BYrau, mÚ 3)
  One who has met the True Guru, remains awake and aware.
    pMc dUq Ehu vsgiq krY ]2] (1128-6, BYrau, mÚ 3)
  Such a person overpowers the five thieves. ||2||[/FONT]

*
Who is satguru here?????


'**Regards*


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## dalsingh (Jul 21, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Respected dalsingh ji,
> 
> You may carry on with that you are doing but kindly try to answer some of the points raised in various posts.
> 
> ...



If the Guru's are referring to their own satguru then we are talking about akal purakh, waheguru. What are you trying to get at?

I take it you believe you are a "pugh wahla Hindu"?

Let me ask you. Does the milieu or context within which Sikhi developed have more or less influence on Sikhi than "sanatan" upanishad philosophy?

Also do you think Sikhs are a quom?


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## dalsingh (Jul 21, 2008)

Also to add to this interesting debate: I enjoy reading Bhai Gurdas's vaars because they are closer to the Panjabi I know. I think the following is related to the wider discussion we are having.

*This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1 *

 BeI iglwin jgq ivic cwir vrn AwsRm auypwey]
ds nwim sMinAwsIAW jogI bwrh pMiQ clwey]
jMgm Aqy sryvVy dgy idgMbr vwid krwey]
bRhmix bhu prkwir kir swsiqR vyd purwix lVwey]
Kit drsn bhU vYir kir nwil CqIis pKMf rlwey]
qMq mMq rwswiexw krwmwiq kwliK lptwey]
iekis qy bhu rUp kir rUp kurUpI Gxy idKwey]
kiljuig AMdir Brim Bulwey ]19]

  	bh*ee* g*i*l*aa*n jagath v*i*ch ch*aa*r varan *aa*sram o*u**ae*p*aa*e*ae*||
dhas n*aa*m sa(n)n*i**aa*s*ee*a*aa(n)* j*o*g*ee* b*aa*reh pa(n)thh chal*aa*e*ae*||
ja(n)gam ath*ae* sar*ae*varr*ae* dhag*ae* dh*i*ga(n)bar v*aa*dh kar*aa*e*ae*||
brehaman bah*u* parak*aa*r kar s*aa*sathr v*ae*dh p*u*r*aa*n larr*aa*e*ae*||
khatt dharasan beh*oo* v*ai*r kar n*aa*l shhath*ee*s pakha(n)dd ral*aa*e*ae*||
tha(n)th ma(n)th r*aa*s*aa*e*i*n*aa* kar*aa*m*aa*th k*aa*lakh lapatt*aa*e*ae*||
e*i*kas th*ae* bah*u* r*oo*p kar r*oo*p k*u*r*oo*p*ee* ghan*ae* dh*i*kh*aa*e*ae*||
kal*i*j*u*g a(n)dhar bharam bh*u*l*aa*e*ae* ||19||

 _In view of the prevailing lassitude in the world, four varnas and four Ashrams were established.
Then ten orders of ascetics and twelve orders of Yogis came into being.
Further jangams, the wanderers, sramans and digambrs, naked jain ascetics also started their disputations.
Many Categories of Brahmins came into being who propounded Shastras, Vedas and Purans contradicting one another.
The mutual incompatibility of the six Indian philosophies further added many hypocrisies.
Alchemy, tantra, mantra and miracles became everything for people.
By getting divided into myriad sects (and castes) they produced a horrible look.
They all were deluded by Kalyug.(19)_


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## Sikh80 (Jul 21, 2008)

dalsingh said:


> If the Guru's are referring to their own satguru then we are talking about akal purakh, waheguru. What are you trying to get at?



*Thanks for your answer.

If our Gurus are talking of God[Akaal], the five demons should have been controlled prior to meeting or realizing HIM. The pre-merger state requires the controlling of senses and organs. I presume that in post-merger state one is not to make an effort for the control of the senses. 

I am only trying to understand the meaning of the Terms like Gurus/Satgurus as it is a grey area for me and I am seeking guidance only. Kindly do not get irritated by the crude questions that I shall be putting across.These are the doubts of many. There are many terms in Granth like guru/satguru/tru guru/perfect gur. Above all bani is Gur. Sabad is also Guru.One  ,sometimes. get lost in arriving at the correct meaning and hence the question. 
Above all entire bani is Guru and Nirankaar.How to interpret bani is Nirankaar is another issue.

* Let me ask you. Does the milieu or context within which Sikhi developed have more or less influence on Sikhi than "sanatan" upanishad philosophy?

Also do you think Sikhs are a quom? 


*Sikhi came into being on account of the then prevailing social, cultural and religious practices and Our Gurus tried to modified or simplified it. However, in order that the sikh philosophy speaks well with the people of that time one could not bring in complete divorce from the then existing/prevalent philosophies and practices.Sikhi was not sprouted in a day.It took ten Great saintly life spans for the development. The context was the reason and the adoption of some philosophies was the need of time. This is perfectly acceptable. One cannot bring in revolutions on account of the risk of its non-acceptance by the masses. The development of sikhi cannot and could not be conceived without taking the essentials of Vedantic philosophies. It is natural. 

We have karma, God and attributes,re-incaranation, Four Yugas and even 84 lakjhs junis from the Vedas and Upnishdas . It is my way of thinking and that may be erroneous.We understand the things in our own ways.  You have your ways of thinking about the origin.That is fine and with me and the way I think should also be fine with you.

The science of soul, the properties and attributes and even the location of God in each one of us were the established concepts. The super consciousness[Akaal] and the individual consciousness [jiva/soul] are also the concepts taken from the Upnishdas and vedas.the tri Gunas-tri badhs, the meaning of which is not very clear to me, is also the established philosophy of that time.

It is the way I think. Sanatan is not that has been discarded.It is like saibhung/self existent Lord. One should not be taken away or swayed by the words.


Regarding the Qua m part, it is the thinking of the tenth master. It is all that I think.
* I take it you believe you are a "pugh wahla Hindu"?
* I do not respond to personal scaths but one is free to indulge in it if one finds it ok.

What do you think about the concepts of Vedas in relation to sikhism. ?

Sabad [quoted by you] /Vaaran [Gurudas ji]has their place but are only subjugatory and not even complimentary to the Granth. One may refer as an aid to understanding the philosophy.But I would prefer the source Document and not the extrinsic aids that you have quoted.

Regards as usual.
*


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## Canuck Singh (Jul 21, 2008)

Dalsingh Ji,

 Can you explain to me what the debate is?


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## Sikh80 (Jul 21, 2008)

Canuck Singh said:


> Dalsingh Ji,
> 
> Can you explain to me what the debate is?



*Kindly refer post-link 62 as above.*


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## dalsingh (Jul 21, 2008)

Canuck Singh said:


> Dalsingh Ji,
> 
> Can you explain to me what the debate is?



From what I gather, some people feel Sikhism is a revertion or return to older "Hindu" beliefs as outlined in older pre-Mannu Hindu literature. Essentially it is the argument of a sanatan interpretation of Sikhi (which ties it to ancient Indian folklore and religious scriptures) to the approach followed by Singh Sabhas which involved a contextualised and, dare I say it, a more western methodology influenced interpretation of Sikhism and Sikh history. Unless I'm getting the wrong end of the stick.

It's probably a good idea to give my own personal position on the matter now:

I understand that some Sikhs in the past may have tied their beliefs to that which existed before i.e. a sanatan interpretation. I would never dispute that.  Whether this is what the Guru's  actually intended is another matter, and a question I cannot answer at this stage. What I can say is that definitely, in the time of the Guru's, active and clear steps were taken to demarcate a separate identity for Sikhs. I guess the question I am facing is "just how far did they go to demarcate these boundaries."


In the end, I will always have a leaning towards logic and rationality *(qrk) *and I make no attempts to conceal this. But I must qualify this statement by explaining that I also believe that logic alone cannot explain the religious experience but this is no excuse to run amok into purposeless mysticism. This, I believe, is behind all manner of evils that pervade the earth.

Let the debate continue. I will answer some points covered by others later as I have a few things to do right now.


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2008)

Dalsingh ji,

Some people may be saying that but some people are not. The term Hindu was and continues to be a political and geographic label. Not a religious designation.

*Meaning of HINDU &; HINDUSTAN*
.
_Nowadays everybody has started defining the words HINDU and HINDUSTAN in his or
her own way. But the exact definition is the one which our Rishis gave several
thousand years ago in Vishnu Purana, Padmapurana and Bruhaspati Samhita.
.
"Aaasindo Sindhu Paryantham Yasyabharatha Bhoomikah
. MathruBhuh Pithrubhoochaiva sah Vai Hindurithismrithaah"
.
Whoever considers the Bharatha Bhoomi between Sapta Sindu and the Indian Ocean,
as his or her motherland and fatherland is known as Hindu. (Sapta sindhu muthal
Sindhu maha samudhram vareyulla Bharatha bhoomi aarkkellamaano Mathru bhoomiyum
Pithru bhoomiyumayittullathu , avaraanu hindukkalaayi ariyappedunnathu.)
.
"Himalayam Samaarafya Yaavat Hindu Sarovaram
.Tham Devanirmmitham desham Hindustanam Prachakshathe."
.
The region between the Himalayas and the Indian Ocean is called Hindustan.
(Himalyam muthal Indian maha samudhram vareyulla devanirmmithamaya deshaththe
Hindustanam ennu parayunnu)
.
Thus all Indians are Hindus regardless of their caste and religion.These.
definitions. were. given. several. thousands. years. ago.*There is no religious
taste in these words.It is unfortunate that these words have become communal
now.* _Word Hindu is Vedic Term - Audarya Fellowship

As such it is fiction to think that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.  Hindu was defined by geography thousands of years ago. Hindu and Hindusim are political ideas from the time of the Persian conquest to the British raj to the years of Indian liberation and unification. 


quote_ I understand that some Sikhs in the past may have tied their beliefs to that which existed before i.e. a sanatan interpretation. I would never dispute that. Whether this is what the Guru's actually intended is another matter, and a question I cannot answer at this stage. _/quote

This is how it all began, with the Rig Veda.

"_O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right path over all evils_." (RV 10.133.6) 

Later in the upanishads, dharma is restated: _"__Verily, that which is Dharma is truth.__Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth, 'He speaks the Dharma,'_ _or of a man who speaks the Dharma, 'He speaks the Truth.'__Verily, both these things are the same."__(*Brh. Upanishad, 1.4.14*) (2)_

Then the idea of dharma evolved to mean a regularly moral principle that orders the Universe (His Hukam, as we Sikhs believe). _ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਕਰੈ ਜਵਾਬਾ॥ hukamai andhar sabh ko kudharath kis dhee karai javaba|| All act as ordained by Him and no one has the power to say no to Him._

Sikhism was and it still is belief system that shares in the dharmic philosophy. That has not gone away. 

quote What I can say is that definitely, in the time of the Guru's, active and clear steps were taken to demarcate a separate identity for Sikhs. I guess the question I am facing is "just how far did they go to demarcate these boundaries."/quote

Yes, because the Gurus were in fact saying that Hindus as a people or a culture, meaning those who inhabited northwestern India, had taken a wrong tern spiritually, ethically and morally. Or as Guru Nanak put it in his typical way -- we are suffering from the disease of reincarnation.


_ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਆਇਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਅਜਬੁ ਅਜਾਬਾ॥ 
bhagath vashhal hoe aeia pathith oudhharan ajab ajaba||
Lover of the devotees, he has come to uplift the downtrodden ones. He himself is wonderful (because in spite of his powers he is egoless).


ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਇਕ ਵਰਨ ਹੋਇ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਹੋਇ ਤਰਾਬਾ॥ 
char varan eik varan hoe sadhhasangath mil hoe tharaba||
By His efforts all the four varnas (social castes) have become one and now the individual gets liberated in the holy congregation.


ਚੰਦਨੁ ਵਾਸੁ ਵਣਾਸਪਤਿ ਅਵਲਿ ਦੋਮ ਨ ਸੇਮ ਖਰਾਬਾ॥ 
chandhan vas vanasapath aval dhom n saem kharaba||
Like the fragrance of sandal, He without any discrimination makes every one fragrant.


ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਕਰੈ ਜਵਾਬਾ॥ 
hukamai andhar sabh ko kudharath kis dhee karai javaba||
All act as ordained by Him and no one has the power to say no to Him.


ਜਾਹਰ ਪੀਰੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਬਾਬਾ ॥੪॥ 
jahar peer jagath gur baba ||a||
Such grand Guru (Nanak) is the manifest spiritual teacher of the whole world.

__Vaars Bhai Gurdas Panna 240
_ 
Sikhism is a religion. Hinduism is not a religion, but a term of art. Sikhism cannot be an offshoot of a term of art. It is with respect to *our* view of how to cure the moral diseases that plague us that *we* are unique and distinct. It also a fiction to think that, as Sikhs, we do not share in the philosophy of the *sanatana dharam. *However, our historical and cultural response makes us a distinctively different religion from other religions in the sanatana dharam. All of Sikh history is testimony to that. 


 .


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

*A**brahamic religions have same roots, there is not much efforts in their world to try to blend those faiths in one  another; however, so called fanatic Hindus are in high gear to blend Sikhism into Hinduism by using pick and quote policy since all the religious scriptures they boast about as the original ones are also filled with so much negative( like human sacrifice etc) stories. The world has accepted Sikhism as independent religion but only they have problem deeply attached to political and religious agenda. If aad0002 Ji's post is looked at in this context, their own identity as Hinduism falls appart since some body's insult was taken as compliment and started preching Hindutava, blending Sikhism into it, is their priority. If the base is the same why Sikhism came along as very separate religion? Guru Ji themselves were aware of this, that is another reason it is recorded in  Guru Granth Sahib Ji " Sikhs are neither Hindu nor Muslim" what is the problem to accept our prophets own word in this context?*


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2008)

pk70

I understand what you are saying. But is the problem fanatical Hindus or fanatical politicians? Or maybe the politicians were idealists and had good intentions, but could not see how unintended consequences of decisions that seemed logical and sound in fact diminished the integrity of a way of life and a system of belief. Everything I have discovered about the Sikh/Hindu divisions after the Liberation is about politics. And politics makes strange bedfellows.

Another thought. When was religion, as opposed to a moral and spiritual path, ever divorced from politics, in any century, any culture, any part of the world? That is a topic for another thread, or maybe another forum. Can you take politics out of religion? Can you take religion out of politics?  What is religion anyway?


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

Can you take religion out of politics?  What is religion anyway?

*NO DOUBT, IT IS FRUSTRATING Bhain Ji*


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## pk70 (Jul 21, 2008)

*SIKH 80 JI*
*Sikhism is a story of falling in love with the Nirgun through Guru, otherwise, Sargun Form is available at your command, appearing in good one and bad one. Gurbani is very clear; systematically it takes you from Zero. Bear with me to understand it in detail. I have to try to make you understand through ordinary examples since Gurbani quotes given numerous times before were quoted back with distortion as I feel. All quotes you are giving have nothing to do with the points you are putting before us. Either try to understand Guru Nanak from the point Zero to onward or do whatever you think is better, take no offense. No body is ignoring you.*
*.*
*Naam. Lets take an example of simple relationship a mother who is wife too, child calls her mother, when it calls “ Mother” an entity comes in its mind; same entity is called by her husband with  a  different word , lets say he calls her by’ honey”  Now you have two expressions, “ Mother” as child understands her, then “honey” her husband  thinks of her. Same entity but is addressed different way. Guru ji went further by calling Him with many names but first described it” tere Naam aneka roop ananta, kehan n jahee tere gun kete(Tr. you have numerous names, numerous are your forms, and your virtues are  beyond description- including names and forms  Asaa Mehla 1) In this Guru Vaak, His Nirgun and Sargun form is made clear. How will you remember Him now? Individually as many do in Hinduism? Or as Guru says to accept Him as one inexpressible Power due to His being infinite, and contemplate on Him. Any name represents that infinite power is known as NAAM. Just as mother is known as “mother “ to a child, and “ honey” to her husband. Also please make a note of it” here when husband calls her honey, he thinks about her not about the other honey, so understanding a word in different context is very crucial.*

*Guru :  As you know, Guru is described with in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Any spiritual one that can enable the soul to see His Nirgun  form very much present within the body is true Guru( M-1). Being a Sikh, you should understand that our Guru is Guru Nanak and his all other sroop are his jyot. Physical they are not here but through their Shabadas, they are very much present in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Why it bothers you when Guru Word is used for Him too, ultimately all goes under His Ordinance. Why to get confused when Guru is used for the one who can show Him within. Guru Nanak solutes those ones too who can show Him ,  this is another reason that Bani of Bhagatas are in Guru Granth sahib Ji. There are so many names Guru ji and Bhagatas ji addressed Him with, choose one you like, that is Naam. All the attributes to His Sargun Forms make it clear, Guru ji or Bhagatas do not want to attach the seekers with one individual name as in Hinduism, [/FONT]**Krishna[/FONT]** or Ram, Vishnu. When Guru describes Sargun Form, he uses names of almost all visible world; why? To print it in your mind that you have to be aligned with His all Sargun Form too, it is praised as:” True”( Asa Dee Vaar) but when Guru ji wants to take you to Nirgun Form, he calls His Sargun Form  “ Koor( False- Asa Dee Vaar) Why? So that you just should not get lost in it( His Sargun Form); remember, only for His Nirgun Form, Guru pines for and inspires us to pine for it. The path is prepared for Nirgun Form, sargun form is not actually issue of achievement of the [/FONT]* *enlightened one. Who worship His Sargun Form, will never be able to realize Nirgun and do progress.*
*You have been quoting upnishdas, Bhagatwat Gita; where were these when masses were not even guided to worship one GOD, instead, His Sargun was worshiped and Nirgun was never given importance; that is why trade was going on” do this get this”, where was  this original source for centuries? Reasons are apparent. Now some good parts of old scriptures are quoted but what about those things which are horrible in context of humanity ( Atharva Veda etc)? Why they are left out? If you remember I quoted Swami Teerath  Ji, read Him, he noticed there are lot unacceptable stuff to any civilized individual in the same scriptures, as per him, many people added disgusting stories with an agenda. Still only those a few things are attractive to you, and you start saying “ Gurbani doesn’t make sense” It is apparent display of ignorance in context of Gurbani*
*Be reasonable, as per Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Sikhism rejects caste system but Hinduism doesn’t. If pseudo Sikhs practice it, you should not blame it on Sikhism, Guru declared against it that is the point of discussion. There was “Sati Pratha”, Sikhs over came it first since Guru taught them against it (equality). Sikhs only read Gurbani, only pray to Akaal Purakh, if some are in multi- pleasing ( going every where), It cannot be used against Sikhism because second Mehal says” Love should be for one only” Do you You  see this teaching any where in Gita or Mahabhata (there, the hero is calling himself  God),  Numerous deities worshiping alone separates Sikhism from Hinduism. Reverence of Guru is not like numerous Devtas in Hinduism. Gur Parmeshar eko jaan” is distorted; all stress is this that Guru Teachings were inspired by Him directly. Amrit ceremony is also a basic and unique, that ceremony doesn’t even exist in Hinduism. For God’s sake, Sikhs were renamed, won’t you figure out why? Every week or day has good or bad omen as per Hinduism, Gurbani says only idiot fall for it, so one should do all efforts to be imbued with Him. There are many points. I wrote you before, you even didn’t care, you came up with lame answers mixed with questions that stagnated our debate.*
* Now let’s start from the Zero. As you know, Guru Granth Sahib Starts with a small but very informatory explanation about the Creator,  His Nirgun Form, expressed in Moolmantra, If you read Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is repeated all over, its repetition has a significance. It is a reminder to bear in mind, while studying any Guru Shabad or Vaak . All shabad must be understood in that context of this definition; when Sargun form is praised\, this definition should be remembered too so that mind should not fall for Sargun form only as Hindus did. In Sargun Form every thing is covered including known spiritual entities. Systematically Gurbani negates their importance before the CREATOR. Guru ji after defining Him, proceeds with all techniques, how to be heard by Him?(  Fer ke aggai rakheeai.. Japji )Where is it  written in so simple words in other scriptures you boast about.? Guru defines his language too” (bhakhia bhaao Apaar= Language of the Infinite is Love)); then His Ordinance, conflict of ego, list of beggars (whom some worship) at His door, then, process through different realms.. End with warning” only those obtain Him who are get imbued with Him( Japji), whole Japji is interpreted in extension through Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Taking from Zero( means being ignorant [/FONT]* *of HIM), going through all possible questions with relevant answers, Guru puts you on a different path which was never before our ancestors saw it.*
*Let me say here one thing more, surrendering before Guru is vital in pursuit of spirituality. If you have doubts, how even you can obey Guru? Path is already tough. I read what you quoted from Bhagwat Gita, upnishdas, Vedas, nothing attracted me, why? I have unshakable faith in Guru, I do not pick and choose from Vedas or Gita.  Either take whole or just forget about them as a Sikh. If they are taken as a whole, lot of stuff wouldn’t be easy to swallow. I am happy with Guru Granth Sahib Ji and I take its whole message, a  message of love for Him and His creation, I do not need to feel small to read how God  Rama beheads a simple man trying to do Bhagati. For me, path is clear, all the wisdom of the world, I do not need. If that wisdom fascinates to some, so it be. I do not ever criticize my dear friend who every day worships Murti of a stone, it is his faith ( I respect that) but I do not need his scriptures to guide me. If there are questions you want to understand in a better way; I will be there for you always in that context as per my limitations. When Guru says, he experienced Him, what question is left for a follower? For people of other faiths, Guru ji’s declaration is insignificant, so it be, I don’t care what their faiths say because Guru took me where I am today, if I am not perfect, I am   far better than I was ten years ago. Ball is in your court, play as you want but don’t mix up things by putting distorted translation, you know Punjabi, Dr. Sahib Singh Ji did pretty good job, why don’t you read that for further clarification?*
* All other stuff posted on internet  to blend Sikhism into Hinduism, is not powerful enough to put any doubt in real Sikh’s deep faith in Guru Nanak, By the way, Sikhs’ Guru is Guru Nanak; Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a mirror through which you can feel Him right there. *
*I don’t believe all entities worshiped in Hindu religion, are any where in Gurbani considered to be able to lead a Sikh as you falsely claim; please reread it, references have special purpose..” Gur issar Gur Gorakh Barma, Gur parbati maee” are attributes to Guru not to them because those were worshiped and Guru ji wants his follower to worship Him only through Guru. You use them in totally wrong context. I am fully aware that you are more capable than me to trace a lot of information on internet, why do you fail to do so? Without consulting any one you just declared” Gurbani calls those entities Guru”? So please take a little effort, compare translations, contemplate on Shabad, meaning will be different for sure because message in SGGS Ji is one, its all about His supremacy and to be in love with none but HIM. 
*


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## dalsingh (Jul 21, 2008)

> Sikhi came into being on account of the then prevailing social, cultural and religious practices and Our Gurus tried to modified or simplified it. However, in order that the Sikh philosophy speaks well with the people of that time one could not bring in complete divorce from the then existing/prevalent philosophies and practices.Sikhi was not sprouted in a day.It took ten Great saintly life spans for the development. _The context was the reason and the adoption of some philosophies was the need of time_. This is perfectly acceptable. One cannot bring in revolutions on account of the risk of its non-acceptance by the masses. The development of sikhi cannot and could not be conceived without taking the essentials of Vedantic philosophies. It is natural.



I agree with much of this but also consider the point that sometimes people are at such pains to point out similarities that they become blind to significant and often radical differences. Often I consider Sikhism as a seed which is yet to blossom. Let us say warriors of the 18th century protected the seed when it was young an most vulnerable. In this age it will be properly unpacked for the masses. Ultimately, Sikhism and Vedantic practice have separate destinies, whatever they may have in common. 



> * I do not respond to personal scaths but one is free to indulge in it if one finds it ok.*



This was no personal attack but a genuine question I asked to try and understand where you are coming from. May I ask again? Do you consider yourself to be Hindu?




> Sabad [quoted by you] /Vaaran [Gurudas ji]has their place but are only subjugatory and not even complimentary to the Granth. One may refer as an aid to understanding the philosophy.But I would prefer the source Document and not the extrinsic aids that you have quoted.



The vaars have been described as the kunji (or key) for SGGSJ. I believe the contents have been approved by Guru Arjan Dev ji.


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2008)

The vaars of Bhai Gurdas ji? Yes they are considered a key to the Bani of the Gurus. Bhai Gurdas' own life spanned that of 5 Gurus, and it was Guru Hargobind who officiated at his funeral. 

Guru Arjan Dev entrusted to Bhai Gurdas the task of compiling the first granth, and supervising the transcription of the shabads and hymns of the Gurus, sants, and bhagats because of his understanding and scholarship. And Bhai Gurdas is considered the first scholar of Sikhism and its scriptures.

Sorry for telling his story, to those who already know it. But his expertise is definitive.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 21, 2008)

*Pk70 ji,

I have gone through your post as above.I shall take some time in responding to you as there is lot of mix up caused by some lines.However, few doubts that have cropped up are stated as follows for a yes/No kind of reply.[Pl. forgive me if I sound rude]*

1.*Is Guru Nanak[ and the rest of the Gurus as the spirit was common.] proclaiming Himself to be the Creator as per Granth or is there any margin of the things being otherwise.? 

2. Is 'waheguru' the 'Naam' for sikhs?

I do have many doubts Now. 
Thanks for your offer for clarifying them when need so arises.



 aad ji,

Yes, You are right .

Vaaran are the keys to Granth sahib. May be these are not referred to as these are not available on internet.Hence I do not read as i cannot read them and have no intention of adding them to library right now.

Thanks for reminding me. 

Would you kindly paste the name of the site from where I can download the vaaran as has been given by Dalsingh.?


 Dalsingh ji,

I am a sikh in a very limited way. I was born in a sikh family.I am Not Amritdhari and shall have no intentions of becoming the same as I shall be bound with some sort of discipline and I think I am not ready for .

I am not averse to enjoy Hindu Aarti when it is relayed on TV. I like Bhajans and Aarti and have wider CD collection than Bani. I like the bells of the temples. I have many friends who are Hindus as they are very polite  and they have their style of living that is fine with me. I also like the way Christian gathers on Sundays and the way they enjoy their festivals and I like the Muslims though I do not understand much as to why they behave in the manner they behave. I also like to read your posts and the posts of some other members. I like the way the christian Nuns serve the patients in missionary Hospitals and I like the way Puran singh ji served the humanity.

This is a long introduction to the one whom you are talking to but looking at the previous posts I felt that it was necessary. You may call me a Hindu.It is o.k as well. Hindus are also His creation. 

I am a very simple and straight forward person and generally tend to avoid arguments over the issue of God and faith and also believe that one has a right to clarifications which my fellow brothern should  not be shy of offering if they have the answer. I can only make a request  and ,that also repeated, I cannot go beyond this as the choice is always with the respondent and not the petitioner.In any case we all learn with time and self study.I do appreciate the help provided by you in the manner that you deemed fit. I have no regrets whatsoever.i shall learn when He blesses me with guidance,. Insha allah !

Regarding Vaaran, Yes, It may be a key. But one tries to understand the text book first failing which recourse to keys may be taken. In any case, the key is not line wise. If Vaaran are approved so is bani that is stated to be Nirankarified by the same guru who compiled the Granth.

With Best Ragards!

*


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2008)

*Would you kindly paste the name of the site from where I can download the vaaran as has been given by Dalsingh.

*Sikh 80 ji,

I hope this is the one you meant.
*
*Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri19:SearchGurbani.com


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## Sikh80 (Jul 22, 2008)

*aadji,

Thanks and regards as usual that you are rever'nly worthy of.
May you be blessed with His grace.*


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## pk70 (Jul 22, 2008)

1.*Is Guru Nanak[ and the rest of the Gurus as the spirit was common.] proclaiming Himself to be the Creator as per Granth or is there any margin of the things being otherwise.? (quote sikh80)

Sikh80 Ji, You have read yourself numerous times, Guru Nanak Ji, compared to HIM, expresses about himself,, in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, a very lowest one breathing on His command" if some while floating on words declare Him God, no one with rational thinking should even think Guru Nanak said this ever. So my answer Is" NO, NEVER"
 
2. Is 'waheguru' the 'Naam' for sikhs?
As per Tere Naam aneka", Sikhs are freed to call HIM with any name they wish with one thing in mind" He has never been manifestation in single individual, Whaguru is  His one name but unlike Muslim" they are not stuck to this name only. Like Akaalpurakh, Rabh Ji, Parmatma, Ishavar' are also very common Names Sikhs use to address HIM but these names have nothing to do with historical personalities because they came and went, the real owner of these names is AJOONI and is forever.
I wont be able to participate actively for 10 days, if I miss some thing please do not think I ignore any body, its just schedule. Thanks for asking.
*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 23, 2008)

> Harjas Ji: You talked about the roots of Sikhism, implying (unless I misunderstood) the upanishads. Are you suggesting that this source would influence Sikhi more than the milieu within which Sikhism grew in its early stages?
> 
> ਨਾਹਮਹਿੰਦੂਨਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ॥ਅਲਹਰਾਮਕੇਪਿੰਡੁਪਰਾਨ॥੪॥
> I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim.My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the Lord of Hindus.
> ...


I'm sorry my time is extremely busy and I don't always have a chance to write.  I addressed several key elements which have nothing to do with the politics and everything to do with the basic theory, definitions, and philosophical structure of Sikh religion from Gurbani and how it directly correlates, almost word for word with Vaishnava Vedanta as well as influence of Shaivite Nath yoga.  This isn't an incidental finding.  Anyone can choose to ignore, or make a dramatic argument against, but the findings are like archeological bones.  No one can make the bones disappear.  They have to be accounted for in any realistic and honest inquiry, which is NOT biased by preferred interpretations.  

The kind of comparisons between Judaism, which believes in One God to Christianity, which is loosely based on a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus, who was elevated in Greek scriptures (New Testament) to God Himself in human form has no doctrinal relationship.  Christianity DID originate from Judaism, and it remains a completely unrelated teaching due to inclusion of Greek and Romanized philosophy and teaching.  Islam is also derivative of both these two religions, yet completely different as it incorporates elements of Gnostic  Christianity and Arabic beliefs.  No one argues how they are related.  No one can deny how they are different.  But Sikhism has the same exact teaching and philosophy of Vaishnava Upanishads.  It's not even a different teaching.  What is different are the politicized superficial distortions to make it seem brahminism, caste, worship of demi-gods is the only Hindu philosophy.  And this was no doubt done to exagerrate definitions which would stretch Sikhism into a new category.  Unfortunately, anyone bothering to actually read Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas can't ignore the incredible similarity with Gurbani teaching.  

The greatest example of politicized distortion is using Gurbani translation, I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu, when the British word "Hindu" didn't even exist the way it does today when it was written in Gurbani.  In so many places in Gurbani a tuuk will say God has this form, blue, 4 arms, long hair... and then seem to contradict, "God has no form."  So this shows a philosophy of God being everything and nothing, sargun and nirgun.  Guruji writes Naam of God is Allah, Naam of God is Raam, and then says I am neither the people of this area who pray 5 times a day, I am neither the people from this other area who practice pujas, not implying negation, but implying transcendance.  Guruji is saying He is not among the people who practice outward forms of religion, but loves all the people who follow the Supreme truth, the union of sargun and nirgun, which is the actual message of mukti in Upanishads.  It isn't something belonging to some new category of religion, as if only Sikhs can have mukti.  And this is the meaning of including bhagat ban as element of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  They weren't Guru's Sikhs as being formally in Sikh religion.  But they were holy God-realized Vaishnava and Sufi bhagats who practiced Naam jaap, either of Allah or of Raam.  So this universal message is actually sanatan, and tolerant, like the success of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's kingdom with harmonized Hindu, Sikh and Muslim elements.  It bears no resemblance to ethnocentrism of modern Sikh politicized religion which actually shows a sneering disregard and disrespect for Hindu religion and identity, despite denials and professing "no hard feelings."  Modern Sikhs are highly offended at being compared to Hindus, because they have been taught for last hundred years to look down on them.  These attitudes come from British promotion of the "martial Aryan race and modern non-superstitious nearly Christian Sikh religion."  There is woundedness at losing sovereignty of Sikh kingdom, but agitation between Hindu's, Sikhs and Muslims as separate communities has caused nothing but grief.  There is nothing spiritual in artificial divisions which are really power struggles and in denial of commonality of authentic spiritual teaching.  This is not Sikh identity.  It is no building block of independant Sikh "nationhood."  It is manipulation and corrupted politics.  Why is it Hindu Rajasthanis who have equal martial history and identity as kings and rulers don't have this painful competition and agitation with rest of Hindu population?  Because they don't deny kinship.  So what exactly is gained by denying kinship?  Has independant "Sikh nationhood" been blessed with success?  If the God wanted it to succeed, nothing on earth could stop it.  Yet, Khalistan was a horrible, ****** disaster.  Not only because of corrupt politics of Indian government, but also because of corrupt methods of Khalistanis.  To be honest, it is the kind of disaster that made Rwandan massacre happen.  This kind of revolutionary rebellion and self-segregation is recipe for future genocidal disasters.  Khalsa Raj won't come like this.  Khalsa Raj isn't about one group of people dominating others.  It will be truly wise and spiritual kings who treat EVERYONE as their own, feed and protect ALL equally.  The modern Sikh identity of independant nationhood will prevent Khalsa Raj from ever appearing, because it is at heart a self-serving community after "rights" and political competition, and not a sevadar of the world community.  No one will want them as kings with the sense of inflated separatism.  So this is completly the wrong philosophy and wrong approach.  It is doomed to failure.  The only thing that can succeed is unity, commonality, accepting the non-Sikh as part of one's own family.

So when asking if Upanishads have more influence that historical or sociological factors, I would like to rephrase the question with another question:

"If the entire philosophy of Gurbani completely accords with Sruti, the Vedantic word for authority of Vedas, meaning: nothing in Gurbani contradicts or teaches anything new, which is not accepted or reconciled in Puranas, THEN my position is, we are no longer even talking about "influence."  If this can be proved, we are talking about a direct teaching.  And in this respect, Sikh80's point: "Is Hinduism the mother of Sikhism" must seriously be considered.  Because within a certain accepted sect of Hinduism, Vaishnava Vedanta, the very outline of Gurbani originates.  If Gurbani teaches word for word definitions, names the same exceptions and clarifications, uses the same Sanskrit terms and teachings, and independantly never teaches anything new, how can Sikhism be considfered "different?"  It just becomes another form of the same teaching.  And this can be established, not only by analysis, but even through historical references and earliest primary definitions of Sikhism within oldest Jathas as "sanatan."

What appears to be fairly recent, within the last 100 or so years is the Westernized Singh Sabha reform movement which sought deliberate distance from Hinduism and the modern structures of SGPC, Rehit Maryada, and even Akal Takht, the removal of sanatan Nihang Jatha from authority as a Takht and the elevation of Damdami Taksal as a Takht which had not formerly been.  So if someone is going to be honest about the modern version of Sikhism as it is followed today, compared to what is recorded historically, there is obvious manipulation and distortion involved.  Now that may not concern the average person, who accepts what he is told and doesn't question too deeply.  But anyone doing any kind of depth analysis is going to have to admit, that historical and sociological factors are not on the side of Singh Sabha.

I will make an inference, that by alluding to "historical and sociological" factors one means that Guruji "intended" to create a separate religion.  Looking at the kes, and the bana, and things like emphasis on One God, WHILE accepting the deliberate distortions of the "extremely well-qualified" Singh Sabha reformers that Hindu's never keep kes, and worship 330 million gods and idols, then superficially, it does appear different.

But let's look deeper.

In every Sikh Jatha, the Khalsa bana is patterned after the Nihang bana.  The Nihangs consider themselves sanatan.  The Khalsa bana of the Nihang is also called Shiva Saroop, because incredibly close meanings with the demi-god Shiva are associated with it.  This alone should give a serious student of history (without preformed opinion) some pause.  

WHY would a new religion with an entirely new and separate identity were a uniform based on Shaivite Nath symbolism?  Because that alone implies, not influence, but the uniform of Shaivites.  It implies direct connection.  Here is an example:






Adi chand hundreds of years old shown with Shiva image.








Traditional Nihang Khalsa bana shown in Shiv Saroop.





1846 Akali Nihang Chief





Shiva mixing bhang




Nihang Singh mixing Shaheedi Degh (bhang)




Shaivite sadhu smoking bhang with chillum pipe.  Guruji was against smoking, yet a tradition of bhang use exists within the Panth in form of Sukha Shaheedi Degh.




Nihang Singh perfoming Jhatka on goat.

Bear in mind that Shaivite yoga included left-hand Tantric traditions that went against all conventional norms, such as intoxication with bhang, meat eating, and intimate relations, incuding marriage, which is in opposition to traditional Vaishnava monasticism of strict vegetarianism, rejection of all intoxicants, and celibacy.

The Nihang has a jura of hair on his head as does Shiva the Mahayogi.
The Nihand is wearing the Chand (moon) as Shiva does, moreover he is wearing the Adh Chand, which if you look closely is Shiv lingum piercing the Chand yoni.  
The Nihang is wearing a farla, piece of blue cloth coming out of the top of dumalla.
It symbolizes the Ganges flowing out of the top of the head, as you can see on the image of Shiva, he also has the Ganges flowing off the top of the head.  This is yogic symbolism relating to kundalini awakening, union of Shiva and shakti.  The weapons of the NIhang also belong to Shiv symbolism as Shiv is a wrathful deity, or powerful warrior figure who destroys his enemies and conquers death.

Consider the traditional Khalsa weapons, Chakra, swords and kirpans and spears, many shaped in swirling humps like naga serpent spirits.  This is fairly common symbolism among Shaivite groups.  Consider the origin of Chandigarh and the symbolism of goddess Chandi as found in Shri Dasam Granth bani, sanatan Nihang heritage, as well as assorted historical references, photos, objects such as Sikh battlestandards and the evidence begins to be overwhelming that Sikhism as re-defined by Singh Sabha is NOT the original Sikhism.  

So when asking about historical and sociological factors which differentiate Sikhs from Hindus, it seems to be a recent and contrived political identity and not the traditional sanatan identity.  "Sikh" means disciple of a Guru.  Nowhere does Gurbani say I have started a new religion named "Sikhs."  Gurbani simply says, the Turks and the Hindus (people from the Indus Valley) are following falsely (have lost their way).  Even the translations of Gurbani force a definition out of Hindu which did not exist during the time Gurbani was written.  Guruji, as did all Vaishnava sects, opposed ritualized brahminism as a corruption of spirituality.  

Vaishnavism and the Shaivite Nath sects, along with the extremely influenced Sufis all share doctrinal and yogic beliefs and are referred to as the Untouchable religion, because they were part of a reform movement which said the low-caste man who japs the mantra Naam of the God is the real brahmin, not the man born into the caste who is a religious hypocrite.  Since both Vaishnava and Shaivite acharas were also militarized and became Armies which fought the Moghuls as well as British, it's easy to trace a historical legacy with the Akali Nihangs.  So the comparison between Hindu's and Sikhs modernly which alleges Hindu's are weak, defenseless and pacifistic, and only Sikhs are strong, heroic, warriors and defenders is another distortion and untruth.  Just one noest look at Hindu demi-gods and the search for weak, pacifists ends.  They are mostly ferocious warriors destroying demons.  There were plenty of Sikhs who were traitors after there own gain during time of Sikh Misls.  And there were plenty of Hindu sects that were fierce and war-like, most notably, the Hindu Rajasthanis who happened to have been using the surname Singh since the 8th century.













Sikh Battle Standard on display at Lichfield Cathedral (Staffordshire UK), captured by British during the Anglo-Sikh wars.  Link to Sikh Standards




Fresco depicting a scene from Markandey Puraan where Durga crushes Mahikasur (a demon), at the Guru Ram Rai Udasin Akhara at Dehradun, Uttranchal, India 




Lithograph of Second Anglo-Sikh War showing Sikh Battle Standard




The modern Britishized Khalsa




> Are you suggesting that _this source_ (Upanishads) would influence Sikhi more than the milieu within which Sikhism grew in its early stages?


To rephrase the question, it is the early stages of Sikhism including up until the time of Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh which was completely sanatan in character, and these original associations and meanings being lost modernly, or deliberately suppressed and denied with flimsy arguments and distorted exaggerations which have created the impression of Sikhism as an independant new religion, when it never taught any new message which is not found in Vaishnava Upanishads, Shaivite Nath tradition or writings of Vaishnava and Nath reform groups such as Kabirpanthis and Sufis.  It is not a new and unique message.  It is an eternal and timeless message with direct roots in Sanatan Dharam.  

Guru is a Guru within an ancient Sanatan tradition.  Guru's shishya's are not the name of a new religion, the name means disciples.  And anyone with honesty will admit the Guru-shishya relationship is the cornerstone of Vedanta, also known modernly as "Hinduism."  Modern Sikhism is a Western, Britishized political invention and definitions completely contradict the written Gurbani of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Shri Dasam Granth bani, Shri Sarbloh Granth bani and variety of lesser know writings such as Prem Sumerag which average Sikh has no knowledge of due to deliberate suppression by political authorities of Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha movement.  Groups like Sikh Missionary Society deny very obvious teachings in Gurbani, such as narak-surag, jamdhootha, reincarnation, yugs, avtaara.  They deny the obvious history of janam sakhis by denying miracles were ever associated with Guruji.  In short, modern Sikh institutions have succeeded through campaign of deliberate misinformation to create a form of a new religion, but completely disconnected to the powerful symbolism and mysticism of the original.  



ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇ ਛੋਡੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਲੀਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇ ॥੩॥ 
khathree braahaman pith dhae shhoddae har naamadhaeo leeaa mukh laae ||3||
The Lord turned His back on the high-class Kh'shaatriyas and Brahmins, and showed His face to Naam Dayv. ||3||

ਜਿਤਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਢਾਇ ॥ 
jithanae bhagath har saevakaa mukh athasath theerathh thin thilak kadtaae ||
All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, the ceremonial mark, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਪਰਸੇ ਜੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥ 
jan naanak thin ko anadhin parasae jae kirapaa karae har raae ||4||1||8||
Servant Nanak shall touch their feet night and day, if the Lord, the King, grants His Grace. ||4
~SGGS Ji p. 733​



ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਕੋ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਰਿਓ ॥ 
raajaa raam japath ko ko n thariou ||
Meditating on the Sovereign Lord God, who has not been saved?

ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਗਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
gur oupadhaes saadhh kee sangath bhagath bhagath thaa ko naam pariou ||1|| rehaao ||
Whoever follows the Guru's Teachings and joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is called the most devoted of the devotees. ||1||Pause||

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥ 
sankh chakr maalaa thilak biraajith dhaekh prathaap jam ddariou ||
He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਭਏ ਰਾਮ ਬਲ ਗਰਜਿਤ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਸੰਤਾਪ ਹਿਰਿਓ ॥੨॥ 
nirabho bheae raam bal garajith janam maran santhaap hiriou ||2||
He becomes fearless, and the power of the Lord thunders through him; the pains of birth and death are taken away. ||2||

ਅੰਬਰੀਕ ਕਉ ਦੀਓ ਅਭੈ ਪਦੁ ਰਾਜੁ ਭਭੀਖਨ ਅਧਿਕ ਕਰਿਓ ॥ 
anbareek ko dheeou abhai padh raaj bhabheekhan adhhik kariou ||
The Lord blessed Ambreek with fearless dignity, and elevated Bhabhikhan to become king.

ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਦਈ ਸੁਦਾਮੈ ਧ੍ਰੂਅ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਜਹੂ ਨ ਟਰਿਓ ॥੩॥ 
no nidhh thaakur dhee sudhaamai dhhrooa attal ajehoo n ttariou ||3||
Sudama's Lord and Master blessed him with the nine treasures; he made Dhroo permanent and unmoving; as the north star, he still hasn't moved. ||3|| 

ਭਗਤ ਹੇਤਿ ਮਾਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਿਓ ॥ 
bhagath haeth maariou haranaakhas narasingh roop hoe dhaeh dhhariou ||
For the sake of His devotee Prahlaad, God assumed the form of the man-lion, and killed Harnaakhash.

ਨਾਮਾ ਕਹੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਕੇਸਵ ਅਜਹੂੰ ਬਲਿ ਕੇ ਦੁਆਰ ਖਰੋ ॥੪॥੧॥ 
naamaa kehai bhagath bas kaesav ajehoon bal kae dhuaar kharo ||4||1||
Says Naam Dayv, the beautiful-haired Lord is in the power of His devotees; He is standing at Balraja's door, even now! ||4||1||
~SGGS JI p. 1105​




ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
har bhaaeiaa sathigur boliaa har miliaa purakh sujaan jeeo ||
The Lord was pleased as the True Guru spoke; he was blended then with the all-knowing Primal Lord God. 

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ 
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 923​





At the time of Ranjit Singh's coronation at Lahore on 11 April 1801, Baba Sahib Singh placed the tilak or mark of sovereignty on his forehead.  http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/


~Bhul chak maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 23, 2008)

Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ । 
jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.  

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ । 
charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star. 

ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ । 
badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ । 
darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ । 
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.  

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ । 
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer. 

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ । 
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.  

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥ 
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​



Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ । 
kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world. 

ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ । 
leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).  

ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ । 
mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck.  

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ । 
indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ । 
mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties. 

ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ । 
mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥ 
saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of the Guru.
~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​



If we accept Bhai Gurdas Ji as the "key" to understanding Gurbani, we must accept where Gurbani speaks of Hindu, or puja and brahmins it is speaking to the corruption of religion found in age of Kaliyug.  Nowhere does it say a new religion is being proclaimed.  In fact by repeating message of yugs and avtaaras, Gurbani is proclaiming these Vedic truths.  And clearly not only does Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji speak of Krishan avatar as sargun God and able to save and distinguishes the das avtaara in this way from all other demi-gods just exactly as Vaishnava Vedanta does.  Whatever side of the debate we are on, such distinctions need to be acknowledged.  If this were not the case, how could Gurbani proclaim the Naam of All-Pervading Ajooni nirgun God be HariKrishna and Raam and Govind and Gopala and Vasudeyva?  If this was new religion, why not give a clearly distinguishing name for the nirguna?  No!  Gurbani proclaims the avtaaras are the sargun manifestation of the Nirguna.  The nirguna is formless and can have no name, and just as Vaishnava Vedanta proclaims, states the ultimate One is the nirguna.  And we know him through bhakti and Naam jap of the sargun names.


Hinduism, in particular Vaishnavism and some form of Shaivism is the mother of Sikh religion.  It has no "new" revelation.  Guruji is acknowledged an avtaara of this lineage, to bring Jyot of the nirguna for age of Kaliyug.  And that is clearly what people recognize as a "Hindu" teaching.  It's been said Hinduism is not a religion, but an art.  This is not true.  Hinduism is a clearly defined and ancient religion.  It is based on Sruti, the revelation of the Vedas and Upanishads.  Just because there are different sects, different schools, differnt philosophies which are all embraced as being Dharmic, doesn't mean Hinduism is no religion.  Buddha is one of the das avtaara, and clearly influenced and clarified Advaita schools.  Just as Gurbani claims Guru Nanak Dev Ji is.  Clearly this entire ideology, philosophical background and even historical foundation fits within Sruti.  In fact Vedas predict Guru Nanak in several places.  So it cannot be danced around for convenience that the incredible body of Vedic philosophy is no religion at all, or so overly broad as to include completely different things.  Gurbani and Vedic philosophy are almost word for word match and there is no contradiction.  Could this exist with an entirely new religion, an entirely new revelation which dispensed with any validity or recognition of previous teachings?  Why would a new religion be taught out of the voice of the old?  And the answer is, because it's not a new religion.  It's a new form of the ancient religion, the original form without the corruption of Manu Smritis.  It is a reform movement, not a new religion.


~Bhul chak maaf


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## Randip Singh (Jul 23, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Why No Randip ji.???*
> 
> *...It is immaterial with which branch of hinduism you compare the end result shall be the same. It is not about the GOd they believe in but the broad philosophy they profess. At macro level it is same. You may start at major differences of sikhism with any branch of hinduism as it is commonly understood.They are clear as to what they are doing though it may be professedly against sikhism but it does not mean that they are in any way inferior or sikhs are not doing the same things in almost similar ways.You may kindly take up few specific points that strikes to your mind. *
> 
> ...


 
Hi Sikh 80 ji,

I don't like really involving my family in this, but my Mother side have Hindu Punjabi origins, and for me the difference between what we do and practice as Sikhs is quite stark from the average Hindu. This is not saying that culturally we are not the same...we eat the same food.....wear similar clothes....speak the same language....but Sikhi is a Culture in itself (as well as religion).

This does not mean we are against Hindu's...I clearly cannot because it is part of my upbringing......it just means we acknowledge that there are differences in areas.

Also the one God quote can be applied to many other faiths, i.e. Christianity, Islam, Judaism.

As I have stated all along, Sikhi looks for common strands in all faiths.....this includes Hinduism, but it does not mean Sikhi is that faith!!


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## Sikh80 (Jul 23, 2008)

randip singh said:


> Hi Sikh 80 ji,
> 
> I don't like really involving my family in this, but my Mother side have Hindu Punjabi origins, and for me the difference between what we do and practice as Sikhs is quite stark from the average Hindu. This is not saying that culturally we are not the same...we eat the same food.....wear similar clothes....speak the same language....but Sikhi is a Culture in itself (as well as religion).



*Sikhi is a culture in itself.It is agreed that it is only a way of life.
As pointed out by some members that Hinduism is not a religion but it is a term of  art. It all depends upon in which context we are looking at the word 'Religion'. Religion should be ,as per that I understand,  something that teaches us Morality that leads us to spiritual wisdom.

I quote from the commentary on Geeta.{taken from internet]

 Quote

The term Dharma is one of the most intractable terms in Hindu philosophy. Derived from the root dhar (Dhri) to uphold, sustain, support, the term Dharma denotes "that which holds together the different aspects and qualities of an object into a whole". Ordinarily, the term Dharma has been translated as religious code, as righteousness, as a system of morality, as duty, as charity, etc. But the original Sanskrit term has a special connotation of its own which is not captured by any one of these renderings. The best rendering of this term Dharma that I have met with so far is, "the Law of Being" meaning, "that which makes a thing or being what it is." For example, it is the Dharma of the fire to burn, of the sun to shine, etc. 

Dharma means, therefore, not merely righteousness or goodness but it indicates the essential nature of anything, without which it cannot retain its independent existence. For example, a cold dark sun is impossible, as heat and light are the Dharma s of the sun. Similarly if we are to live as truly dynamic men in the world, we can only do so by being faithful to our true nature, and the Geeta explains "to me my Dharma." 

Unquote

I have given the Links and one can refer the source document as well.[Kindly click under Dharma[
* 
*In this context Sikhism is only a bye-product of the philosiphy of Upnishdas and Vedas.Religion is philosophy in action. 

"From time to time an     ancient philosophy needs intelligent re-interpretation in the     context of new times, and men of wisdom, prophets, and seers     guide the common man on how to apply effectively the ancient     laws in his present life."[quoted]

It is how I look at sikhism i.e the application of old concepts .

Let us see as to what is Geeta in the context.

IF THE Upanishads are the text-books of philosophical     principles discussing man, world and God, the Geeta is a     hand-book of instructions as to how every human being can     come to live the subtle philosophical principles of Vedanta     in the actual work-a-day world. Sikhi does admit though it does not admit Geeta as any scripture except at one particular place in bani.I shall post and paste the same when I have located the same.

Needless to mention that I can quote many things from Geeta and one shall be surprised to see as to how the science of soul and mind and God etc, are conceptualized in Hinduism. There is nothing new in this except Naam about which we do not find clarity at all  and that we may discuss or not discuss is a matter of mutul agreement and depends upon the level of individual convenience.So far as i am concerned I am willing to discuss it as It shall help  understand the basic concept of sikhism  that,probably, has alienated sikhism from the 'ism' that we  are discussing. 
**
*


randip singh said:


> This does not mean we are against Hindu's...I clearly cannot because it is part of my upbringing......it just means we acknowledge that there are differences in areas.
> 
> Also the one God quote can be applied to many other faiths, i.e. Christianity, Islam, Judaism.



*The one God concept had to be stated on account of the fact that some members have stated that in Hinduism there is a concept of Devi and Devas. In sikh scriptures as well we have devi and Devas.The Bhatt bani and the status of Gurus being made equal to the God rejects the claim that sikhi does not believe in Demi Gods.

In fact this is more alive and pronounced in Sikhism if we state that Sikh Gurus were Avtaars of God. It is stated at many places in bani.

**Regarding last point I shall sum up that there is nothing new in Sikhism.It is the adoption of the old Vedic concepts.IF THE Upanishads are the text-books of philosophical     principles discussing man, world and God, the Geeta is a     hand-book of instructions as to how every human being can     come to live the subtle philosophical principles of Vedanta     in the actual work-a-day world.If we try to digest properly the implications of the     Geeta's advice in the light of Vedic lore, it becomes amply     clear how actions performed without ego-centric desires purge     the mind of its deep-seated impressions and make it     increasingly subtle in its purification and preparation for     greater flights into the Infinite Beyond. To explain this, we     will just try to review a little the conception of the mind     and its functions in our day-to- day life and one shall find many similarities in Sikhism. It may not be adoption from Hinduism. But it is all there in sikhism.

Let us look at how at many places Granth sahib has made a reference to Vedas.Every scripture is to be understood for attainment of one 'worthy being' and so is true for vedas. One should practice and not theorize.

vyd khih viKAwx AMqu n pwvxw ] (148-2, mwJ, mÚ 1)* 
*The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.*


* piVAY nwhI Bydu buiJAY pwvxw ] (148-3, mwJ, mÚ 1)*
*Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.

It is true for Granth sahib as well and any other religious scriptures.

 [/FONT]* jnim mrY qRY gux ihqkwru ] (154-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
   One who loves the three qualities is subject to birth and death.
 
cwry byd kQih Awkwru ] (154-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
  The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.
 
qIin AvsQw khih viKAwnu ] (154-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
  They describe and explain the three states of mind,

qurIAwvsQw siqgur qy hir jwnu ]1] (154-12, gauVI, mÚ 1)
 *but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru.*

*The Kundalini Jagran to achieve the fourth state is advocated in Hinduism.
I do not mean that in sikhism same is to be practised ut it is also an accepted concept in Sikhism.*
[/FONT]*
As a concluding Line I shall quote the following.*

 *byd purwn isMimRiq suDwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)*
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,


 kIny rwm nwm iek AwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.[/FONT]
*
And


* ccY cwir vyd ijin swjy cwry KwxI cwir jugw ] (432-19, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Chacha: He created the four Vedas, the four sources of creation, and the four ages.[/FONT]
* 
And

bRhmY byd bwxI prgwsI mwieAw moh pswrw ] (559-14, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)* 
Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, but the love of Maya spread.[/FONT]

* And

Bani admits that even Vedas admit the glory of the name that may be different than that we have.Our concept of naam is also the same and has also been drawn from Vedas. I do not know as what is Naam.If you permit I can post many quotes of Granth Sahib about Naam .* 
*
* Awpy swsqu Awpy bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.


 Awpy Git Git jwxY Bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
He knows the secrets of each and every heart.[/FONT]
*

Awal Allah Nur Upaya......


Today's Hukum Nama. I have put in my 4 questions in Black color in Italics.[ I have the fair presumption that many of us would be like me ....]

*[SIZE=-1]English      Translation :[/SIZE]   
JAITSREE, FOURTH MEHL:​      The Lords Name does not abide within their hearts  their mothers  should have been sterile. These bodies wander around, forlorn and abandoned,  without the Name; their lives waste away, and they die, crying out in pain. ||  1 || O my mind, chant the Name of the Lord, the Lord within you. The Merciful  Lord God, Har, Har, has showered me with His Mercy; 

the Guru[1] has imparted  spiritual wisdom to me, and my mind has been instructed. || Pause 
_[1.Who is Guru here]_


|| In this  Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lords Praise brings the most noble  and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru.[2]
_*[2.Who is true Guru here]*_



 I am a sacrifice  to my True Guru,[3] who has revealed the Lords hidden Name to me. || 2 || 

_*3. Who is True Guru...Lord and what is the meaning of 'revealing of hidden Name .It is 'wahegur' or something else is alluded to.]*_

By  great good fortune, I obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Holy;  it removes all stains of sin. 



I have found the True Guru, the great,  all-knowing King; He has shared with me the many Glorious Virtues of the Lord.  [4]
|| 3 || Those, unto whom the Lord, the Life of the world, has shown Mercy,  enshrine Him within their hearts, and cherish Him in their minds. The Righteous  Judge of Dharma, in the Court of the Lord, has torn up my papers; servant  Nanaks account has been settled. || 4 || 5 ||      
_       [4] Who is True Guru here who is supposed to be sharing Glorious Virtues of Lord]                   _
Wednesday, 8th Saawan (Samvat 540 Nanakshahi) (Page : 697)

* Kindly expand on the terms Guru and Lord......You may take the pains of writing a pargraph on this claryfying Guru and Lord and Name .*


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2008)

Jios,

I had posted that Hinuism is a "term of art" not an "art. " Hope this has not caused any confusion.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 23, 2008)

*aad ji,
I have edited the post and have retained that you have stated. 

I took 'art' as 'art of living' or 'way of living' and is not a religion. i.e Hinduism is not a religion But.....
There is no point of discussion/confusion at all.
But  post does not analyse this term and is almost independent of the contextual meaning.
Being constrained by my limited appreciation of the language I do have the benefit  of interpreting things that my limited intellect permits.

**Thanks for pointing it out.
I appreciate your approach and remain grateful for your concern.
*


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## spnadmin (Jul 23, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *aad ji,
> I have edited the post and have retained that you have stated.
> I took 'art' as art of living' or way of living and is not a religion.But my post does not analyse this term and is almost independent of the contextual meaning.Being constrained by my limited appreciation of the language I do have the benefit  of interpreting things that my limited intellect permits.
> Nonetheless, there is no confusion at all*.



Sikh80 ji

Well thank you for clearing things up. I was not sure.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 23, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Sikhi is a culture in itself.It is agreed that it is only a way of life.
> As pointed out by some members that Hinduism is not a religion but it is a term of  art. It all depends upon in which context we are looking at the word 'Religion'. Religion should be ,as per that I understand,  something that teaches us Morality that leads us to spiritual wisdom.
> 
> I quote from the commentary on Geeta.{taken from internet]
> ...




Last I am satying on this matter. It really matters not what path you follow so long as you are a seeker of truth. If you understand Sikhi in terms of Hinduism, then  good for you. If another understands it in terms of Christianity or Islam, then good for them. Point is they are trying to understand Sikhi and Guruji uses Vedic concepts to explain Sikhi:

My last post on this matter:

Page 747

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
सूही महला ५ ॥ 
Sūhī mehlā 5. 
Soohee, Fifth Mehl: 

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥ 
करम धरम पाखंड जो दीसहि तिन जमु जागाती लूटै ॥ 
Karam ḏẖaram pakẖand jo ḏīseh ṯin jam jāgāṯī lūtai. 
The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector. 

ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਜਿਤੁ ਛੂਟੈ ॥੧॥ 
निरबाण कीरतनु गावहु करते का निमख सिमरत जितु छूटै ॥१॥ 
Nirbāṇ kīrṯan gāvhu karṯė kā nimakẖ simraṯ jiṯ cẖẖūtai. ||1|| 
In the state of Nirvaanaa, sing the Kirtan of the Creator's Praises; contemplating Him in meditation, even for an instant, one is saved. ||1|| 

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਰੀਐ ॥ 
संतहु सागरु पारि उतरीऐ ॥ 
Sanṯahu sāgar pār uṯrī*ai. 
O Saints, cross over the world-ocean. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
जे को बचनु कमावै संतन का सो गुर परसादी तरीऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jė ko bacẖan kamāvai sanṯan kā so gur parsādī ṯarī*ai. ||1|| rahā*o. 
One who practices the Teachings of the Saints, by Guru's Grace, is carried across. ||1||Pause|| 

ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਜਨ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਭਰੀਜੈ ॥ 
कोटि तीरथ मजन इसनाना इसु कलि महि मैलु भरीजै ॥ 
Kot ṯirath majan isnānā is kal meh mail bẖarījai. 
Millions of cleansing baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage only fill the mortal with filth in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੨॥ 
साधसंगि जो हरि गुण गावै सो निरमलु करि लीजै ॥२॥ 
Sāḏẖsang jo har guṇ gāvai so nirmal kar lījai. ||2|| 
One who sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, becomes spotlessly pure. ||2|| 

*ਬੇਦ **ਕਤੇਬ **ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ **ਸਭਿ **ਸਾਸਤ **ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ **ਪੜਿਆ **ਮੁਕਤਿ **ਨ **ਹੋਈ **॥** 
बेद कतेब सिम्रिति सभि सासत इन्ह पड़िआ मुकति न होई ॥ 
Bėḏ kaṯėb simriṯ sabẖ sāsaṯ inĥ paṛi*ā mukaṯ na ho*ī. 
One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.* 

ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ 
एकु अखरु जो गुरमुखि जापै तिस की निरमल सोई ॥३॥ 
Ėk akẖar jo gurmukẖ jāpai ṯis kī nirmal so*ī. ||3|| 
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. ||3|| 

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ 
खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥ 
Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏės cẖahu varnā ka*o sājẖā. 
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 23, 2008)

randip singh said:


> Page 747
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

Yes, reading does not bring liberation.It is the actual practice of the teachings that may. Same is and can be stated about Granth sahib ji.I am right now only reading bani. It is not likely to be fruitful unless I put it into practice. *_*

You may kindly like to answer the questions about Hukumama in relation to Gurus ,Lord and True Guru and related terms.*

_*Good Night ,Dear randip ji.It is about 11p.m. here. 
See U tomorrow.

*


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## dalsingh (Jul 23, 2008)

> Page 747





> ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> सूही महला ५ ॥
> Sūhī mehlā 5.
> Soohee, Fifth Mehl:
> ...




*This is pretty much definitive on the matter no?*




> Harjas: Guru is a Guru within an ancient Sanatan tradition. Guru's shishya's are not the name of a new religion, the name means disciples. And anyone with honesty will admit the Guru-shishya relationship is the cornerstone of Vedanta, also known modernly as "Hinduism."



*To me the following vaar states otherwise:*

BG Vaar 9. P2

ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੀ ਬਾਰੀਕ ਹੈ ਸਿਲ ਚਟਣੁ ਫਿਕੀ । 
gur sikhee baareek hai sil chatanu dhikee|
To be disciple of the Guru is very subtle activity and it is like licking of the tasteless stone.
 ਤ੍ਰਿਖੀ ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ । 
trikhee khanday dhaar hai uhu vaalahu nikee|
It is thinner than the hair and sharper than the edge of the sword.

 ਭੂਹ ਭਵਿਖ ਨ ਵਰਤਮਾਨ ਸਰਿ ਮਿਕਣਿ ਮਿਕੀ । 
bhooh bhavikh n varatamaan sari mikani mikee|
*Nothing is equal to it in present, past and future.
*
 ਦੁਤੀਆ ਨਾਸਤਿ ਏਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਇਕਾ ਇਕੀ । 
duteeaa naasati aytu ghari hoi ikaa ikee|
In the house of Sikhism, the duality gets erased and one becomes one with that One.

 ਦੂਆ ਤੀਆ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਸਣੁ ਕਕਾ ਕਿਕੀ । 
dooaa teeaa veesarai sanu kakaa kikee|
*Man forgets the idea of second, third, when and why.
*
 ਸਭੈ ਸਿਕਾਂ ਪਰਹਰੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਇਕਤੁ ਸਿਕੀ ॥੨॥ 
sabhai sikaan paraharai sukhu ikatu sikee ॥2॥
Repudiating all the desires, the individual gets delight in the hope of one Lord.



*Does the following imply a connection to the previous sanatan dharm? I personally think not.

*BG Vaar 28. P 4
ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੀ ਦਾ ਸਿਖਣਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ । 
gur sikhee daa sikhanaa guramukhi saadhasangati dee sayvaa|
The way of learning the conduct of a Sikh of the Guru is that one should be the holy congregation.
 ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਨ ਸਿਖਿਆ ਗੀਤਾ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ । 
das avataar n sikhiaa geetaa gosati alakh abhayvaa|
*This mystery was not known even to the ten incarnations (of Vishnu); this mystery is beyond the Gita and its discussions.*
 ਵੇਦ ਨ ਜਾਣਨ ਭੇਦ ਕਿਹੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਪੜਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਣੁ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ । 
vayd n jaanan bhayd kihu|ikhi parhi suni sanu dayvee dayvaa|
*The Vedas know not its secret though they may be studied by gods and goddesses.*
 ਸਿਧ ਨਾਥ ਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਤੰਤ ਨ ਮੰਤ ਲਘਾਇਨਿ ਖੇਵਾ । 
sidh naad n samaadhi vichi tant n mant|aghaaini khayvaa|
The deep meditations of the siddhs, naths and even the tanta*tras could not cross the teachings and practices of Sikh way of life.
 ਲਖ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਨ ਗਏ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖੀ ਟੇਵਾ । 
lakh bhagati jagat vichi|ikhi n gaay guru sikhee tayvaa|
Millions of devotees flourished in this World but they also could not understand the life-discipline of the Sikhs of the Guru.

ਸਿਲਾ ਅਲੂਣੀ ਚਟਣੀ ਸਾਦਿ ਨ ਪੁਜੈ ਲਖ ਲਖ ਮੇਵਾ । 
silaa aloonee chatanee saadi n pujai|akh|akh mayvaa|
This life is similar the licking of the saltless stone but its taste is incomparable even to the millions of fruits.



Harjas: Although I agree that some "shifty" changes were introduced by the British, who attempted to manipulate elements of the Khalsa Fauj for their own imperialistic purposes.  I don't, however, believe that Sikhism is an attempt to reestablish "sanatan dharam" as defined by yourself. I think you are right in being wary of potential political mischief and the impact it may have had on Sikhs but also understand that the period under Maharajah Ranjit Singh represented more temporal and political success than spiritual. Again this dialog has highlighted another key/crux of this debate: Was Sikhism as practiced under Maharajah Ranjit Singh, that which the Gurus preached. This is the matter that needs research and analysis. 

We can see the difference between the Khalsa under the sanatan influence compared to those closer to Dasmesh Pita's time strikingly when we consider how Sikhs, despite being poorly armed/trained and numbered, stubbornly refused to succumb the Moghuls. This was despite the most horrendous attempts to break them. Singhs of the early 1700s, underwent the harshest of times glowingly. Compare this to the Anglo-Sikh wars, where Singhs were numerically  strong, battle hardened and well equipped. Unlike Moghul times when they had little open support and were hunted like dogs, they had a wealthy kingdom behind them. 

But what happened? After a few battles with the British they gave up fighting and many became sycophantic to the new rulers. Why did they not do this against the Moghuls earlier? Personally I believe it was because this "sanatan" thinking had penetrated them severely and they lost the original Khalsa spirit, which would never submit. 

Anyway - I don't think we will change our opinions, so we will have to agree to disagree. But I will say in closing, that not allowing a people to define themselves, to stifle their natural development as they collide with various ideas/philosophies is cultural imperialism at its worst. 

I would say at the heart of this lies notions of cultural supremecy, which attempts to dictate and define outside people according to its own needs and wants.  Behind this further still is the implicit belief that people are too stupid/primitive to know themselves and define their own cultures. I am against this. Whether it is from British imperialism or if it arises from an Indian agenda of saffronisation. 

Sikhs to my eyes are a young fledgling community. Like all communities, they will evolve and adapt over time.


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## pk70 (Jul 23, 2008)

( quote Sikh 80)
Sikhi is a culture in itself.It is agreed that it is only a way of life.

*Sikh 80 Ji,
Absolutely incorrect. Sikhi is a way of living Sikhism, many cultures have adopted it. It is  so sad a faith  of merit is just wrapped in a few flat words. It  is immaterial you agree or so.*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 23, 2008)

randip singh said:


> Hi Sikh 80 ji,
> 
> I don't like really involving my family in this, but my Mother side have Hindu Punjabi origins, and for me the difference between what we do and practice as Sikhs is quite stark from the average Hindu. This is not saying that culturally we are not the same...we eat the same food.....wear similar clothes....speak the same language....but Sikhi is a Culture in itself (as well as religion).


*
 pk70 ji,

Wjkk Wjkf


I am quoting only from the posts of the members who are speaking that sikhi is not an offshoot.I have not quoted that myself though I feel that way only. 



Dalsingh ji:


Your claim that Vedas has been rejected is not a truth as per my understanding.Your argument has a major flaw stated below.

"If a secondary enactment rejects the claim and the original maintains, we are statutorily bound by the original Ordinance in the matter of interpretation.It would be fatal if the reliance ,in such cases, is made on the secondary Legislation that has its own interpretations and is not the explanation presented on the Lines of the main Law/eternal Law prescribed in the Granth. "

One can take only those provisions from the subsidiary ordinance to the extent that these match the original.If there is any addition in the Subsidiary ordinance the same should not be read in the context of the main Enactment. It is a subjective view but is followed in judicature.

In judicature we have some other principles as well.

In the original Bani It is not the Vedas that are asked to be rejected     it is the manner in which  these were put to misuse  was  forcefully asked to be abandoned.*

vyd khih viKAwx AMqu n pwvxw ] (148-2, mwJ, mÚ 1)
  The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

piVAY nwhI Bydu buiJAY pwvxw ] (148-3, mwJ, mÚ 1)
*Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.*


*Admittedly, Bani admits the Vedas to be the word of God .How can the one word of God be inferior to another word of God.*
[/FONT] 
byd purwn isMimRiq suDwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
*The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,*


kIny rwm nwm iek AwK´r ] (262-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
*were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.[/FONT]*

* References to Vedas*

*The following verses from the Guru Granth Sahib shed some light on its views on some aspects of Hindu scripture:*
*Sikhism does not have belief in Heaven/Hell system, transmigration, inequality of caste and gender and held the Vedas responsible for these fallacies in the contemporary society, the quote below from second Sikh Guru mentions the same view:*

"ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥"
*
"It is the teachings of Vedas, which has created the concepts of sin and virtue, hell and heaven, and karma and transmigration. One reaps the reward in the next life for the deeds performed in this life -- goes to hell or heaven according to one’s deeds. The Vedas have also created the fallacy of inequality of caste and gender for the world."* *Aad Guru Granth Sahib, p. 1243* 

Page 463 - ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥ - Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.



Page 791 - ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਖਾਇ ॥ - Reading the Vedas, sinful intellect is destroyed.



Page 941 - ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ - *The Gurmukh is pleasing to the True Guru; this is contemplation on the Vedas.*



Page 942 - ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ - *The Gurmukh understands the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas.*



Page 1188 - ਬੇਦ ਵਖਾਣਿ ਕਹਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ - *The Vedas say that we should chant the Name of the One Lord.*



Page 148 - ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ - *The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.*



Page 355 - ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ - *The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know His mystery.*



Guru Nanak, on page 1021 - ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
* - Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebas [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery (of the Creator of the Cosmos)*.[9]



Page 1126 - ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਅੰਧੁਲਉ ਧੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਈ ॥੩॥ - *The Shaastras and the Vedas keep the mortal bound to the three modes of Maya, and so he performs his deeds blindly. ||3||*



Page 1237 - ਨਵ ਛਿਅ ਖਟ ਕਾ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨ ਉਚਰੈ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੋਹਿ ॥ -



 *You may study the nine grammars, the six Shaastras and the six divisions of the Vedas. You may recite the Mahaabhaarata. Even these cannot find the limits of the Lord.*
*   Bhairao, Fifth Mehl - I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers... Guru Arjan Dev Page 1078 - Even the Vedas do not know the Guru's Glory. They narrate only a tiny bit of what is heard*

*The Guru Granth Sahib*
*
I have quoted the entire passage so that neutrality in presentation is retained.

It is true that Gurus have ,at many places, stated that The Vedas cannot describe the Glory of God. But we have similar statements in Granth Sahib ji. Even in Jap ji Sahib Guru Nanak admits that even after knowing HIM  he could not explain the Greatness of the Lord. Infact , no one can do that.Only one equal to HIM can do that.[Bani] 


Main Page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

* Bani also admits the same*.

*All that is stated to reject the Vedas means that Vedas are supreme and are also word of God. Yes the defect found was that the Vedas admittedly created caste system i.e. a social issue.

Regarding the second point that Vedas did not know the limits of God , it can be said so for any Religious Book if Sikhi concept is based on the fact that God cannot be known or understood.

* 
Alwhu AlKu AgMmu kwdru krxhwru krImu ] (64-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
*He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.*


qw ky AMq n pwey jwih ] (5-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
*but His limits cannot be found.[/FONT]*
*
At many places it is also mentioned that He cannot be seen and understood and no one can describe HIM as it cannot be done thus even Granth sahib cannot also explain all the qualities og God.It has been admitted at many places.

I think the present discussion revolves round as to what is God and where is god.Let is see what Geeta has to state about this. I could not find much difference in this and what we follow. 


[Commentary On Geeta]
**1.1 Where is God?* 

*God really is all pervasive. Space and Time are in Him. Yet His presence can be felt in the very pure heart of man. *

fitj tje @jhnjmjhxyjhtjN gju*yjhd]gju*yjtjrN mjyjh ivjmj|wyjEtjdwjeQjeqj yjTjecCisj tjTjh ku= ..18>63.. 

*"The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine*"  

1.
*Do not remember the Lord as merely a personified power as Siva in Kailas, as Vishnu in Vaikunta, as the Father in Heaven, etc. but recognize Him as one who dwells in the heart of everyone. *

*Just as the address of a person is given in order that the seeker of that person may locate the individual in a busy town, so also, in order to seek, discover, and identify with the Lord, His `local address' is being provided here by Bhagavan Krishna.  
* 
2.
*While saying that 'the Lord dwells in the heart of all living beings', the physical heart is not meant here. In philosophy, the word 'heart' is more figurative than literal. It is something like our saying that this individual has a 'large heart', or a 'good heart'. Here we only mean that the individual in question is a man of love and all humane qualities.* 


*Residing thus in the heart-meaning, in the mental bosom of one who has cultivated the divine qualities of a cultured human being, such as, love, kindness, patience, cheer, affection, tenderness, forgiveness, charity, etc. the Lord lends His power for all the living creatures to act on: He energizes everyone. Everything revolves around Him like the unseen puppets which have no existence, no vitality, no emotion of their own; they are mere expressions of the will and the intention of the unseen hand behind them. * 
sjvj[syj cjhHN ›id sjiœivjQZo mj$j: smj|itj@jh[njmjpjoHnjN cj vjedEwcj sjvjE[rHmjevj vje–o vjedhntjk|”edivjdevj cjhHmj] ..15>15.. 

*"And I am seated in the hearts of all, from Me are memory, knowledge, as well as their absence. I am verily that which has to be known in all the VEDAS; I am indeed the author of VEDANTA, and, the "knower of the VEDAS" am I."  

He lives in the Hearts of all living creatures. Here the HEART does not mean the physiological heart but it is the metaphysical HEART . The term HEART, in philosophy, means, "mind which has been trained to entertain constantly the positive qualities of love, tolerance, mercy, charity, kindness, and the like". The Infinite 

'DWELLS IN THE HEART' means, though He is present everywhere, the Lord is most conspicuously self evident, during meditation, in the HEART of the meditator. ||1.1||  
* *

Note: I have not deleted the sanskrit sholkas.If It is feasible I shall try to put them in Sanskrit as some of us would be interested in this as well.

Wjkk WjkF*


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## dalsingh (Jul 23, 2008)

Sikh80

You may consider yourself a Hindu. That is your prerogative. I don't. I think the majority of Sikhs don't either. I doubt that will change. Unless we are *all *wrong........





> Dalsingh ji:
> 
> 
> Your claim that Vedas has been rejected is not a truth as per my understanding.Your argument has a major flaw stated below.
> ...



Faith and identity have to be deeply felt and not mechanically laid out like this. 

Lets agree to disagree.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 23, 2008)

*dalsingh ji

Yes, you should not participate if you are unwilling. When the things are likely to become unpleasant it is better for one to leave the discussion. 

I also have no intention of making one see things  who is not willing  to listen to other and is harping on a single tune.

I am reminded of one line and even do not know the source:

Ekas ke hum barik.....


Wjkk Wjkf*


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2008)

From a forum "mod" perspective - disagreement is good for a thread unless it is disrespectful and insulting to participants. Why should someone back out because of disagreement or discomfort? Why should someone back out because they feel uncomfortable? 

Total agreement = Hmm, Hmm, Hmm - _Oh yes you are right, you are right. Let me repeat what you said. We should just repeat the same idea 20 different times. _How boring is that?    How does anyone see anything from another point of view or learn that there is another point of view without respecting the fact that there are different points of view? So dalsingh ji -- keep the discussion going and keep your point of view alive!!!!! :happy:


And Sikh80 ji, keep addressing your core questions so that others can sharpen their understanding !!!!!:happy:
*
Differences,* not similarities, teach us who we are at a deeper level in every debate.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 24, 2008)

*:u):They say:Two Jokers do not make the Circus.

Cheers!!



*


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## dalsingh (Jul 24, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> From a forum "mod" perspective - disagreement is good for a thread unless it is disrespectful and insulting to participants. Why should someone back out because of disagreement or discomfort? Why should someone back out because they feel uncomfortable?
> 
> Total agreement = Hmm, Hmm, Hmm - _Oh yes you are right, you are right. Let me repeat what you said. We should just repeat the same idea 20 different times. _How boring is that?    How does anyone see anything from another point of view or learn that there is another point of view without respecting the fact that there are different points of view? So dalsingh ji -- keep the discussion going and keep your point of view alive!!!!! :happy:
> 
> ...



Personally speaking, someone coming on a Sikh site to basically promote the idea that there is no Sikhism says it all. What more can I say to that? I think it speaks for itself.

The two positions are that Sikhism is an independent religion and the other is that it is tied up in the tentacles of the term Hinduism. I know where I stand on this.

I don't really appreciate this ongoing attempt to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism. I know majority influence can be strong and that the media/academic pressure is strong in India to make Sikhs think they are some form of Hinduism, so I am not surprised that people like Sikh80 are produced in this environment. If anything, it just adds to the case for Khalistan.


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2008)

Dalsingh ji

You do not appreciate it, and I strenuously disagree with it. But can we agree to the right of another to state his views?


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## spnadmin (Jul 24, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *:u):They say:Two Jokers do not make the Circus.
> 
> Cheers!!
> 
> ...



No two jokers do not make a circus.   But in a hand of poker, one joker can take everyone else to the poorhouse if jokers are wild. :}8-:  What are you saying?   That only one point of view is permitted per thread?  :advocate: Or that only one joker is permitted dominate the discussion?  :inca: Or something else? :whisling:


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## Sikh80 (Jul 24, 2008)

> , so I am not surprised that people like Sikh80 are produced in this environment. If anything, it just adds to the case for Khalistan.


_One of the line Of Hindu Aarti is:_

*Maat Pita Tume Mere 
Swami!!
Saran Paroon mein Kiske!!*
*Jo Dhyavay Phal Pavay.....


I give below the same in Full so that English speaking audience can refer to:
**
Oh Lord of the whole        Universe
Mighty Lord of the whole Universe
All Thy devotees'        agonies
All Thy devotees' sorrows
Instantly Thou banisheth
Oh        Lord of the whole Universe

He who's immersed in devotion
He        reaps the fruits of Thy love
Lord, he reaps the fruits of Thy        love
Floating in a cloud of comforts
Floating in a cloud of        comforts
Free from all the worldly problems
Oh Lord of the whole        Universe

Thou art Mother and Father
At Thy feet I seek eternal        truth
Lord, at Thy feet I seek eternal truth
There's none other than        Thee, Lord
There's none other than Thee, Lord
Guardian of all our        hopes
Oh Lord of the whole Universe

Thou art Godly        perfection
Omnipotent Master of all
Lord, omnipotent Master of        all
My destiny's in Thy Hand
My destiny's in Thy Hand
Supreme        Soul of all Creation
Oh Lord of the whole Universe

Thou art an        ocean of mercy
Gracious protector of all
Lord, gracious protector of        all
I'm Thy humble devotee
I'm Thy humble devotee
Grant me Thy        divine grace
Oh Lord of the whole Universe

Thou art beyond all        perception
Formless and yet multiform
Lord, formless and yet        multiform
Grant me a glimpse of Thyself
Grant me a glimpse of        Thyself
Guide me along the path to Thee
Oh Lord of the whole        Universe

Friend of the helpless and feeble
Benevolent saviour of        all
Lord, benevolent saviour of all
Offer me Thy hand of        compassion
Offer me Thy hand of compassion
I seek refuge at Thy        feet
Oh Lord of the whole Universe

Surmounting the earthly        desires
Free from the sins of this life
Lord, free from the sins of        this life
Undivided faith and devotion
Undivided faith and        devotion
In eternal service unto Thee
Oh Lord of the whole        Universe

Oh Lord of the whole Universe
Mighty Lord of the whole        Universe
All Thy devotees' agonies
All Thy devotees'        sorrows
Instantly Thou banisheth
Oh Lord of the whole        Universe
* 
*

Let us some panktis Of bani.*



*   You are our Lord and Master; to You, I offer this prayer.*
*This body and soul are all Your property.*
*You are our mother and father; we are Your children.*
*In Your Grace, there are so many joys!*
*No one knows Your limits.*
*O Highest of the High, Most Generous God,*
*the whole creation is strung on Your thread.*
*That which has come from You is under Your Command.*
*You alone know Your state and extent.*
*Nanak, Your slave, is forever a sacrifice. ||8||4||*
 

*
*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 24, 2008)

> I don't like really involving my family in this, but my Mother side have Hindu Punjabi origins, and for me the difference between what we do and practice as Sikhs is quite stark from the average Hindu.


But the question is not what has become the modern practice and understanding of Sikhism, but what are it's teachings?  A Russian orthodox Christian and a Southern Baptist Christian have radically different practices, yet philosophically share more than 75-80% of interpretation of spiritual philosophy.

Modern Sikhism tolerates no idols, no arti.  Yet, it cannot be denied that historically idols were kept and arti performed in Gurdwara.  So the question becomes, what was the original practice?  The Tat Khalsa say Sikhi was Hinduized to weaken it from a purataan original form.  The sanatan Sikhs say Sikhi has always been like this with traceable historical references, and the British influenced Tat Khalsa tried to establish an independant identity rejecting anything in practice, interpretation or belief which had any sanatan connotations, and even going to extreme of either ignoring certain pauris or deliberately mis-defining Hinduism to exaggerate differences.  But the truth is, forgetting all forms of hostility and personal prejudice, or any modern form of practice or artificial distortions of actual Hindu teaching, it comes down to what is the spiritual and philosophical teaching of Gurbani and how close or far is it from original Hindu scriptures.  No matter what anyone wants to believe, the answer is, not far at all.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 24, 2008)

> Personally speaking, someone coming on a Sikh site to basically promote the idea that there is no Sikhism says it all. What more can I say to that? I think it speaks for itself.  The two positions are that Sikhism is an independent religion and the other is that it is tied up in the tentacles of the term Hinduism.


This is a Sikh _philosophy_ forum, which means the interchange of ideas, opinions, beliefs and interpretations of the participants provided such are expressed respectfully.  Since a significant part of the Sikh population considers itself "sanatan" and has done so from the time of the kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and not as some modern subversion of the Indian state, then any discussion of this nature requires fairness to the facts, and not unsupportable slanders.  I have no affiliation with the Indian state or even RSS.  And for years I supported an independant Khalistan.  But it is my studied opinion, that the remarks said in hostility, said with intent to bully the suppression of even the mention that Sikhism has any viable relationship to Hinduism, which are commonly heard among Sikhs are spoken more out of fear than actual conviction.  The evidence for sanatan Sikhism is overwhleming, and the arguments against are largely based on deliberate distortions of what Hinduism is, and actually teaches, parroting the worst excesses as the example in an effort to deny similarities.  While I do not blame any individual Sikhs, that is a reflection of the true intellectual dishonesty of scholars of the Singh Sabha reform, whose face is today, modern Sikhism.  Badgering an unpopular opinion with insults such as pagh-wale Hindu, is, as we all know, the worst insult against a Sikh.  Because the truth is, the majority opinion among Sikhs is very disparaging of Hindus and Hindu religion.  People can say, "I love Hindus"  "I'm best friends with Hindus"  "I'm descended from Hindus" until they turn blue.  Anyone can hear the comments in Gurdwara or on Sikh forums about the "monkey god" and "Shiva's lingum" and "short, cowardly brown race" said in colorful and curseword phrases.  The real attitude of Sikhs toward Hindus, as a community, is one of superiority and disgust.  Let's be sincere.

And seeing as every form of Guru was an Indian born on Indian soil, gaining wisdom and spiritual vision from ancient Indic teachings, that Sikhs are not a "separate Aryan race" or the only form of "martial" community, let's consider such self-deceptions as racism of the British with intent to divide and generate hate between people.  Such is the politics of genocide, and no wonder genocide has already been the fruit of agitation for separatism, with political intolerance, fear and loathing on both sides of the Sikh-Hindu divide.  But don't dare dress up such egotistical pettiness as any form of spirituality, whether it is esposed from Congress, Hindutva, Arya Samajis or Sikhs.  It is belittling to the Sikh religion to continue to perpetuate these myths and blind hatreds.  I am coming from the influence of a Khalistani community which absolutely deifies shaheeds and men with bombs and machine guns.  This is not spirituality.  It is a political distortion of spirituality.  We have an entire generation of kids who think Sikh-Hindu relations began with 1984, which praise Bhindranwale blindly and condemn Hindus as a community for the political violence of the secular Congress Party.  

Again, these distortions have nothing to do with truth.  Why are we allowing ourselves to be manipulated as a spiritual community with glorification of senseless violence, political intimidation, and lack of empathy for ALL people instead of "just the Sikh community?"  This "us against them" mentality is so juvenile, so destined for political failure as it is destined for spiritual condemnation.  We now have a generation of young people who firmly believe they are destined to fight and die to advance the cause of Sikhs, economically, politically and socially, and really do not care anything about anyone else at all.  Is this the Khalsa Raj who will treat ALL men and women as EQUALS?  No.  It is the antithesis.  It is the reason why we do NOT have a Khalsa Raj.  Is the idea of an independant nation of Khalistan sitting between nuclear Pakistan and nuclear India in the middle of major wars in Afghanistan and Iraq actually some security for Sikh people?  Is this what it will take to make the big, strong Khalsa safe in their identity?  The Buddhists sit in the middle of India. acknowledge their sanatan roots and have communal harmony.  No one has destroyed their ability to be Buddhists.  No one has altered their philosophy.  We have to see through these political manipulations of the community.  IF the violence of the Indian state continued to be directed against Sikhs, then by all means, the struggle should continue.  But after so much bloodshed, after so much injustice, after so much sorrow, let us build peace.  Vengeance is NOT a dharmic justification, it is based on haumai and krodh.  And all it will ensure is more violence, more hostility, and a repetition of the injustices of the past.  This is a spiritual philosophy?  Who can responsibly speak fro a separate nation of Khalistan now?  And to be what?  Some ghettoized version of the Taliban?  Let's be honest about political Sikh leadership.  It would be a nightmare on the way to a disaster party.  If the God wanted to establish a Khalistan, it would be standing, and nothing could earth could topple it.  But in all honesty, the Sikh separatist movement died the ugliest, bloodiest death and failed amazingly.  If anything, it is cursed.  What would Khalistanis inherit?  A bankrupt farming system?  Polluted rivers?  Political hostility and perpetual warfare from both India and Pakistan?  It wouldn't even be economically viable.  So stop the foolish talk about Khalistan.  The Sikh Raj did not rule Khalistan.  They ruled Punjab.  And Punjab has always been a part of Hindustan.  Everything about the Sikh Kingdom was based on commonality, harmony, equality and respect for Hindus.  Maharaja Ranjit Singh willed the Koh-i-noor Diamond to Jagganath temple, not Harmandir Sahib.  So all this Britishized, modern talk of "independant nationhood," "separate identity," "Sikh rights," "Sikh racial differences" is the lowest common denominator of spirituality.  It's all MAYA!  It has no validity.  It's future is death.  Why kill more Sikh kids by filling their heads with such nonsense?  Why create more fear and loathing in the Hindu community by making apprehensive with idolizing bombers and machine gun-wale religionists?  I can say with conviction, some fool toting a machine gun who gets blasted by police services is no instant shaheed who receives mukti.  That is a lie and a deception.  Everything we do has a karmic repercussion.  If we do well, it is a benefit, and if we do poorly, it doesn't matter how many posters people make our likeness, we suffer that.  We suffer.  How did this jihadi mentality become a part of the noble and tolerant truths of Sikh religion?  No one can glorify violence against the innocent and be a spiritual person.  It doesn't matter if you call yourself Hindu or Sikh.  You are NOT that if you do not protect and defend the innocent from harm.  THAT is the essence of Dharma.  If our life isn't a blessing for others, then we wasted that life.  And if we harmed anyone, when we die, we will regret, because we will feel the pain we caused.  So glorification of violence is a nightmare.  It is the premonition of hell.






Air India memorial


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## dalsingh (Jul 24, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Modern Sikhism tolerates no idols, no arti.  Yet, it cannot be denied that historically idols were kept and arti performed in Gurdwara.  So the question becomes, what was the original practice?  The Tat Khalsa say Sikhi was Hinduized to weaken it from a purataan original form.  The sanatan Sikhs say Sikhi has always been like this with traceable historical references, and the British influenced Tat Khalsa tried to establish an independant identity rejecting anything in practice, interpretation or belief which had any sanatan connotations, and even going to extreme of either ignoring certain pauris or deliberately mis-defining Hinduism to exaggerate differences.





OK, but factor these contemporary observations into your schema of things:


This early quote is from a Persian manuscript written during Guru Hargobind's time. The author spent some time with Sikhs and knew the Guru. His writings imply a distinct difference to Hinduism. It also seems to answer your question about the position of arti and idol worship in original Sikh worship.



> _*To be brief Nanak's followers scorn images. Their belief is that all the Guru's are Nanak as stated previously. They do not recite the mantras of the Hindus and do not pay respect to their idol temples. They do not count the avtaars for anything. They do not have attachment to Sanskrit, which the Hindus call the language of angels.
> *
> __*Dabistan i Mazahib by Mobad (1645-46) . Translated by Irfan Habib*_


The following from a Persian Manuscript covering Banda's rebellion also portray Sikhs as generally being separate from Hindus and Hinduism. Make of it what you will. I think it goes against the idea of oneness with Hinduism as posited by some. I think the reference to Hindus who deserved to be killed may refer to those Hindus who were colluding with and supporting the Moghul administration.    





> _ Although from the lower castes of Hindus, countless people like ants and locusts gathered around him (Banda Singh Bahadhur) and lost no time in getting killed or coming into battle for his sake, yet they did not harm such Hindus of high status as Khatris, who were colluding in the designs and plans of that rebel or Jats famous for their bravery, who were supporting and joining the army of that doomed one. *All remaining Hindus, along with the Muslims they regarded as deserving to be killed.
> *_
> _*Muntakhabu 'l Lubab by Khafi Khan (1716). Translated by Majida Bano.*_


This observation is from an Afghan opponent of Sikhs who came to Panjab with Abdali Shah. This observation is explicit in its categorisation of Sikhs as distinct from Hindus.





> _If you are not conversant with their religion I shall tell your honour that the Sikhs are disciples of a Guru, and that fortunate guide had lived at Chak [this is an old name for what we know call Harmandir Sahib]. *The ways and practices of these people are derived from Nanak who showed to the Sikhs a separate path. His last successor was Gobind Singh, from whom they received the title Singh. They are not from amongst the Hindus. These miscreants have a distinct religion of their own.
> 
> 
> *__*Jang nama by Noor Mohhamad (1764-1765). Translated by Iqtidar Alam Khan.*_





Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> But the truth is, forgetting all forms of hostility and personal prejudice, or any modern form of practice or artificial distortions of actual Hindu teaching, it comes down to what is the spiritual and philosophical teaching of Gurbani and how close or far is it from original Hindu scriptures. No matter what anyone wants to believe, the answer is, not far at all.




*Conclusion: *We cannot portray the practices of Maharajah Ranjit Singh's time as unadulterated Sikhi. Evidence suggests that some "Sanatanisation" of Sikhi may have taken place. Similarities between some ancient Hindu texts and Sikh material doesn't mean they are one and the same thing. Overlaps may occur for sure but denying Sikhs an independent identity, when *clearly*, many saw them in this way during their formative years is mischievous.


PS - Harjas, I just read through your last post. I'm not condoning violence and a negative attitude towards Hindus. I largely agree with your analysis of the impact of Britishers on Sikhs. I also agree with your comments concerning corruption in Panjab. But none of this changes the issue at hand, that Sikhs are a distinct group. Just because I believe this doesn't mean I have hatred towards Hindus or Hinduism. If anything, lately I have had the desire to study Hinduism in more depth. My previous attempts were flawed because I couldn't find a coherent system in all of what I studied. I now have a better understanding and am better prepared to understand it. 

I don't agree with sanatanised interpretations myself. Again I point at the success Sikhs had against Moghuls compared to the  Anglo-Sikh wars.  That some protestant thinking may have influenced Singh Sabha thinkers is conceded. I am not trying to hide this. Also I'm a bit confused about your comments on glorifying violence. I don't believe I ave done this and I openly condemn those who call themselves Sikhs and commit atrocities on innocents, be this for Khalistan or anything else.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 25, 2008)

> Also I'm a bit confused about your comments on glorifying violence. I don't believe I ave done this and I openly condemn those who call themselves Sikhs and commit atrocities on innocents, be this for Khalistan or anything else.


Veer ji, I am not speaking directly to you as personally condoning violence against innocents, but to the Khalistan movement in general as I have been exposed to it.  Not very long ago, I held almost the same positions you are now sharing.  But I am honestly saying what is pushing me to the sanatan view happens to be coming from Khalistanis.  The more I listen to it, the more it is unbearable.  It remains a "pro-Sikh rights only" political agenda intent on isolation and separatism, devaluing Hindu religion and undermining the security of the Indian state.  And to what purpose?  How will these attitudes and philosophy EVER help the Sikh identity?  I am convinced it is destroying it.  I hate to be embarrasing, but the Khalistanis are doing nothing for the farmer suicide crisis, but Hindu physicist Vandana Shiva is creating programs that are saving lives and giving farmers an economic chance.  Why?  Because she loves people.  Creating divisions, perpetuating hostilities is no bridge.  And in a world filled with suffering, we need mature spiritual people to create bridges and help wounds to heal.


Guru's called name of God, Ram. Krishna. Vasudeyv.  And everybody stretches and strains to say, "but it's not Ram, it means Parabrahm."  "It's not Krishna, it means nirguna." "It's not Vasudeyv, it means the Ajooni."  And yet Gurbani is so clear as to describe the sarguna as Ram Chandra, Har Krishan and das avtaaras while distinguishing Advaitic teaching that the nirgun is beyond comprehension of the sargun, His limits can't be reached by even the sargun manifestation, because the physical world was created in the modes of three gunas, duality and Maya.  The merged God-consciousness is what transcends sansaara and intuitively grasps what physicality cannot.  The sarguna is the Jyot, it is the merged consciousness.  YET Gurbani acknowledges it is the One nirgun incomprehensible which pervades in ALL forms, including the das avtaaras, and the devas and even you and I.  No one can call the Naam of the nirguna, because no word could describe it.  So Gurbani and even vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji is very clear that Naams of the One Uncreated nirguna are called after the Jyot of sarguna, and describing in harmony with Vaishnava Vedanta:  Ram, Krishna, Vasudeyv, Govinda, Gopala.  Gurbani even says the gopis dancing are the One Ajooni pervading in these forms for His own Leela.

Hindu's are not trying to strangle Sikh identity.  Politicized Sikhs are strangling their own spirituality.  Honest research and you will find sanatan teachings all over Gurbani, sanatan history all over Sikhism.  It is Sikh politicians trying to perpetuate Britishized racist divide of separatism which destroys unity, of hostility which destroys brotherhood, of intimidation which creates fear and apprehension.  So what if Sikhism is largely based on Vedic teaching.  All that tells you is Sikh religion is deeper and more meaningful than the arrogant limitations Singh Sabha reform sought to impose.  It doesn't tell anyone they have to run out and worship idols.  But it does say, in tolerance and harmony that spiritual truths are very ancient, they do not only belong to a handful of people professing a particular faith.  It does say the God is present in the Hindu.  God is present in the Muslim.  God is present in the Sudra.  God is present.  Love people.  Love God.  That is the message.  All these fanatical teachings about  Hindu's having false gods, or fake gods, or mythologically meaningless and inferior religion is so wrong.  It opposes the words of Gurbani which teaches the reality of devas and demi-gods as spiritual beings, of the Vaishnav Naams of the sarguna.

This is a conversation I had this week with Christian missionary:
"Why do you keep long hair?  That is primitive superstition.
"Why do you have that name of Kaur it belongs to a pagan religion."
"You say the Sikh religion believes in One God.  Which God?  It isn't 'my God.'  That's not the true God.  The true God is Jesus.  So you are an idol worshipper just like the Hindus.  Why don't you embrace the true religion?"​
So to hear almost the exact same beliefs about Hindus that I hear about Sikhs from Christian missionaries, and you start to get a whole new perspective.  How amazingly wise and mature is the sanatan Dharma.  How amazingly tolerant are the teachings,acceptance of difference, respect for the All-pervading One God behind all forms, and all forms of religious understanding.  This is the unequivocal and unimpeachable TRUTH.  All forms of jihadi separatism, specialness, self-elevation, self-righteousness belief in "One True Way," intolerance and disrespect of any other is the lowest form of spirituality.  


ALL human beings are the atma of the Paramatma, we are the sargun face of the hidden Beloved One.  All sincerely religious paths which have any form of Dharma are a path of the One All-Pervading.  Some are more mature than others.  But eventually we will ALL merge with the All-Pervading, because it is our truest essence and Real nature.'


"An enlightened person looks at a learned and humble Braahmana, an outcast, even a cow, an elephant, or a dog with an equal eye." ~Bhagavad-Gita 5.18​

Know that all creatures have evolved from this twofold energy, and Brahman is the origin as well as the dissolution of the entire universe. (7.06)
O Arjuna, there is nothing higher than Brahman. Everything in the universe is strung on Brahman like jewels on the thread of a necklace. (7.07)
O Arjuna, I am the sapidity in the water, I am the radiance in the sun and the moon, the sacred syllable OM in all the Vedas, the sound in the ether, and the manhood in men. (7.08)
I am the sweet fragrance in the earth. I am the heat in the fire, the life in all living beings, and the austerity in the ascetics. (7.09)
O Arjuna, know Me to be the eternal seed of all creatures. I am the intelligence of the intelligent, and the brilliance of the brilliant. (7.10)
I am the strength, that is devoid of lust and attachment, of the strong. I am the lust (or Kaama) in human beings that is in accord with Dharma (for procreation), O Arjuna. (7.11)
Know that the three Gunas, Saattvika, Raajasika, and Taamasika, also emanate from Me. I am not in (or dependent on) the Gunas, but the Gunas are in (or dependent on) Me. (7.12)
Human beings are deluded by these three Gunas of nature; therefore, they do not know Me who is above these Gunas and eternal. (7.13)
My divine Maya consisting of three Gunas or states of mind is difficult to overcome. Only they who surrender unto Me cross over this Maya. (7.14)

The evil doers, the ignorant, the lowest persons who are attached to demonic nature, and whose intellect has been taken away by Maya do not worship or seek Me. (7.15)
Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)
Among them the wise one, who is ever united with Me and whose devotion is single minded, is the best. Because, I am very dear to the wise, and the wise is very dear to Me. (7.17)
All these (seekers) are indeed noble, but I regard the wise as My very Self, because the one who is steadfast becomes one with the Supreme Being. (7.18)
After many births the wise ones resort (or surrender) to Me by realizing that everything is (a manifestation of) Brahman indeed. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19)
They, whose wisdom has been carried away by various desires impelled by their own Sanskaara, resort to other gods (or deities) and practice various religious rites. (7.20)
Whosoever desires to worship whatever deity (using whatever name, form, and method) with faith, I make their faith steady in that very deity. (7.21)
Endowed with steady faith they worship that deity, and fulfill their wishes through that deity. Those wishes are, indeed, granted only by Me. (7.22)
Such (material) gains of these less intelligent human beings are temporary. The worshipers of Devas go to Devas, but My devotees come to Me. (7.23)
~Bhagavad-Gita ch. 7:6-23
​




> I don't really appreciate this ongoing attempt to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism. I know majority influence can be strong and that the media/academic pressure is strong in India to make Sikhs think they are some form of Hinduism, so I am not surprised that people like Sikh80 are produced in this environment. If anything, it just adds to the case for Khalistan.


Truth is so strong, it rights all error.  Just be sincere.  Nothing can harm the Truth.  Just like a shining light dispels darkness, truth can be approached, investigated, tackled, and no matter what errors are in people's minds, it always remains the eternal Truth.  Sikhism is just a name.  It means disciple of a Satguru.  Be a disciple of Satguruji and embrace Reality and not worry so much about the Maya world that is passing away every minute.  You can't save existence of Sikh form any more than you can hold the sun in the sky.  What will be, will be.  And every one of us is greater than this physical form appears.  We are embodied lights.

This world, these bodies, these religions, these identities... are all part of the illusion of Maya.  If they fade away or die, if the whole world disappears, the Truth hiding behind these forms remains untouched.  Nothing can harm it.  Nothing can change it.  Truth is eternal and it resides in bliss.  Just as the Sufi mystics say, "Christ dances on the cross."  So Guru is blessing people in the middle of torture.  He is guiding people to light even while being crushed.  Nothing can touch Him.  He cannot be destroyed.  He is ONE with the eternal.  Everything will pass away.  Your life, your identity will pass away.  Your dukh, even your karma will one day pass away.

Only love can live forever.


"Even if the greatest sinner worships God with all his soul, he must be considered righteous because of his righteous will." ~Bhagavad-Gita ch. 9:30​


~Bhul chak maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 25, 2008)

> yet they did not harm such Hindus of high status as Khatris, who were colluding in the designs and plans of that rebel or Jats famous for their bravery, who were supporting and joining the army of that doomed one. All remaining Hindus, along with the Muslims they regarded as deserving to be killed.
> 
> Muntakhabu 'l Lubab by Khafi Khan (1716). Translated by Majida Bano.
> 
> This observation is from an Afghan opponent of Sikhs who came to Panjab with Abdali Shah. This observation is explicit in its categorisation of Sikhs as distinct from Hindus.


Hindus of high status...Khatris...Jats... all remaining Hindu's.

Certainly Sikhs of the Guru were an independant military force and became Rulers by blessing of Vaheguru.  But to the question, were they Hindu in origin, orientation, teaching, and exactly how different were the teachings of the new "Sikh" community from Hindu scriptures goes to some incredible gymnastics to make Sikhs NOT have any association with Vedanta.

Are not Khatris and Jats part of Sikh history, Sikh misls, Sikh Army?  And who exactly were the Hindus deserving to be killed?  Were they Sikh collaborators?  Were they brahmins?  You see Gurbani called the Vaishnav equal to a Gurmukh.  In today's modern parlance, does that mean Vaishnav is NOT a Hindu?

So analysis is really required to find the true interpretation of Sikh history, which in so many ways has been distorted by the dominant view, Singh Sabha.



> They do not count the avtaars for anything. They do not have attachment to Sanskrit, which the Hindus call the language of angels.
> 
> Dabistan i Mazahib by Mobad (1645-46) . Translated by Irfan Habib


Can you explain why Gurbani praises the das avtaaras as sargun manifestation of the God?  Can you explain why Gurbani refers to Guru as an avataar?  And as for Sanskrit,


> Guru Gobind Singh ji from 1675 until 1690 took an extensive courses in Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic, and Punjabi in educating himself. According to chronicles, Pandit Kirpa Dutt helped Guru Gobind singh in his Sanskrit Studies.
> Sikh Warriors






> The final section from pages 1353 to 1430 is a selection of salokes or verses. These salokes include Sanskrit salokes by Bhagat Kabir and Baba Faridand svaiyay (quatrains) by the bards as well as additional salokes by the Gurus.
> Guru Granth Sahib Ji






> Punjabi language is said to have emerged from Apbhransh about 1000 A.D. In the twelfth century, Baba Farid wrote his saloks in Lehndi dialect. During the next three centuries, India was attacked by muslim adventurers and, therefore, heroic verses known as known as Vars became popular. During this period, the Yogis developed a dialect of their own which was called the saint-language and contained terms of systems of Indian philoso-phy. There was very little literature worth the name before the Sikh Gurus. Moreover, Panjabi was regarded as a language of the vulgar by the aristocratic and Brahamanic sections of Hindu society. The Yogis also wrote in the Sanskrit. Some Sanskrit! saloks, are included in Guru Granth Sahib.
> 
> The Sikh Gurus preached their principles in the language of the masses. The adopted popular forms of poetry such as salok Chhant, Bara Mahan, Thhittin, Bawan Akhari, Var (heroic ballad). The Var is also a song of praise. The Gurus praised the Name and at the same time denounced egoistic pursuits.
> 
> ...







> Guru Gobind Singh was a great lover of literature. He translated the Vedas, the Upanishads, etc., into the common language of the people. He employed fifty-two poets to create new literature. He was a great scholar of Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit, Brijbhasha and Punjabi. Not only could he use these languages most efficiently but he could also write poetry in these languages. His poetry is unique in its rhythm, its colourful use of adjectives and adverbs and its ability to inspire truth.
> The Sikh Bangle - The Background of the Kara





> They do not recite the mantras of the Hindus and do not pay respect to their idol temples.


Naam is Gurmantra.  He must be referring to jado tuna tantra mantra which is NOT something ALL Hindu's practice, that is an erroneous oversimplification.  And indeed Vaishnavs jap the same NAAM Gurmantra using the very same Naams of the One Lord to praise sarguna as do the Sikhs.  Can you explain why Naam of God is called Ram, Har Krishan, Govinda, Gopala, Vasudeyva, even Vaheguru?  And is this NOT Gurmantra?  Perhaps author is referring to Gayatri mantra, and this would be correct.  But this alone is no distance from Vaishnavism of praising sargun manifestation with names of Raam and Krishna.  Sikhs don't jap Mool Mantra? Or are they saying this mantra is a different kind of mantra?  Maybe it would be correct to say Sikhs don't jap mantras of Brahmins, because they can be proven to jap mantras of Vaishnavas.  I am curious as to what word for Hindu these authors are using, and in what ways it may be distorted in translation to prove a political view of Sikh separatism supporting the Singh Sabha perspective.




> Sikhism was not the state religion during Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s rule. The Maharaja’s regime was essentially secular with patronage evenly distributed amongst the Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. His Prime Minister was a Hindu Dogra, his Foreign and Interior Ministers were Muslims.
> 
> It was the Britishers who tried to foster the sense of identity as distinguished from the Hindus amongst the Sikh soldiers for reasons of their own. However, the Hindu religious practices continued to be followed amongst the Sikh masses; there were idols even on the premises of the Golden Temple.
> 
> ...





ਜੁਗਿ ਗਰਦੀ ਜਬ ਹੋਵਹੇ ਉਲਟੇ ਜੁਗੁ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤਾਰਾ । 
jugi garadee jab hovahay ulatay jugu kiaa hoi varataaraa|
During the down fall of an age, people setting aside the duties of the age bahave contrary to their nature.   

ਉਠੇ ਗਿਲਾਨਿ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਰਤੇ ਪਾਪ ਭ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ । 
utday gilaani jagati vichi varatay paap bhrisati sansaaraa|
The world gets engrossed in remorseful activities and sin and corruption prevail.

ਵਰਨਾਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਖਹਿ ਖਹਿ ਜਲਨ ਬਾਂਸ ਅੰਗਿਆਰਾ । 
varanaavaran n bhaavanee khahi khahi jalan baans angiaaraa|
Different sections(castes) of society develop hatred for one another and finish themselves through squabbles as the bamboos, due to their mutual friction, producing fire burn themselves as well as others.

ਨਿਦਿਆ ਚਲੇ ਵੇਦ ਕੀ ਸਮਝਨਿ ਨਹਿ ਅਗਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਬਾਰਾ । 
nidiaa chalay vayd kee samajhani nahi agiaani gubaaraa|
Condemnation of the knowledge starts and in the darkness of ignorance nothing remains visible.   

ਬੇਦ ਗਿਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਹਟਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਗਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਾ । 
bayd girand gur hati hai jisu|agi bhavajal paari utaaraa|
From that knowledge of the Vedas which gets man across the world ocean even the knowledgeable people get away.  

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਧਰੇ ਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ । 
satigur baajhu n bujheeai jicharu dharay n prabhu avataaraa|
So long God does not descend on earth in the form of true Guru, no mystery can be understood.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਇਕੁ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਬਣਜਾਰਾ । 
gur paramaysaru iku hai sachaa saahu jagatu banajaaraa|
The Guru and God are one; He is the true master and the whole world craves for Him.

ਚੜੈ ਸੂਰ ਮਿਟਿ ਜਾਇ ਅੰਧਾਰਾ ॥੧੭॥ 
charhai soor miti jaai andhaaraa ॥17॥
He rises like sun and the darkness is dispelled.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 17 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas​



ਚਾਰਿ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਆਪਿ ਤਰੈ ਕੁਲ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਧੋ ॥੨॥੫॥੧੧॥ 
chaar baran chaar aasram hai koee milai guroo gur naanak so aap tharai kul sagal tharaadhho ||2||5||11||
There are four castes, four social classes, and four stages of life. Whoever meets the Guru, Guru Nanak, is himself carried across, and he carries all his ancestors and generations across as well. ||2||5||11||
~SGGS Ji p. 1297​


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ਸਿਮਰੰਥਿ ਗੁਨਾ ॥ 
gaavehi gun baran chaar khatt dharasan brehamaadhik simaranthh gunaa ||
The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.

ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਸੇਸੁ ਸਹਸ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਰਸ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਿ ਧੁਨਾ ॥ 
gaavai gun saes sehas jihabaa ras aadh anth liv laag dhhunaa ||
The thousand-tongued serpent king sings His Praises with delight, remaining lovingly attached to Him.

ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥ 
gaavai gun mehaadhaeo bairaagee jin dhhiaan niranthar jaaniou ||
Shiva, detached and beyond desire, sings the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord's endless meditation.

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੫॥ 
kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||5||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​





> The word translated “caste” is varna–color. Krishna says: Chaturvarnyam maya srishtam–“The four castes [colors] were brought forth by me.” This is important, as many translations say things such as “I created/established the system of four castes.” This is patently false. Rather, Krishna is saying that the Supreme Spirit has brought forth into manifestation human beings of a fourfold kind. And this Supreme Lord has not “created” human beings as four types, but has manifested them guna karma vibhagashah–“according to the sharing of their guna and karma.” That is, all human beings fall into four very broad categories according to the evolutionary level of their development–according to the quality (guna) of the energies of which their subtle and gross bodies are formed, and according to the karmas which they must fulfill.
> http://www.atmajyoti.org/hi_gita_commentary_35.asp




ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥ 
adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae ||
The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.
~SGGS Ji p. 381​




> Thousand-headed is Purusa, thousand-eyed, thousand-footed. Having covered the earth on all sides, he stood above it the width of ten fingers.  Only Purusa is all this, that which has been and that which is to be. He is the lord of the immortals, who grow by means of [ritual] food.  Such is his greatness, yet more than this is Purusa. One-quarter of him is all beings; three- quarters of him is the immortal in heaven.  Three-quarters of Purusa went upward, one-quarter of him remained here...When they divided Purusa, how many ways did they apportion him? What was his mouth? What were his arms? What were his thighs, his feet declared to be?  His mouth was the Brahman [caste], his arms were the Rajanaya [Ksatriya caste], his thighs the Vaisya [caste]; from his feet the Sudra [caste] was born. ~Rig Veda


According to the Rig Veda, all the castes are created from the God, and thus, are part of the God.





> In the Chandogya Upanishad, Satyakama (the illegitimate, varnasankra, son of a Shudra woman who did not even remember who her son's father was) went on to be accepted and educated for Brahmin work (the Gita: Ch. 18 - verse 42). This shows that the people (including the Shudra and of unknown lineage) had the choice of pursuing any occupation (even that of a Brahmin).
> http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/_caste.html







> The ways and practices of these people are derived from Nanak who showed to the Sikhs a separate path. His last successor was Gobind Singh, from whom they received the title Singh. They are not from amongst the Hindus. These miscreants have a distinct religion of their own.
> 
> Jang nama by Noor Mohhamad (1764-1765). Translated by Iqtidar Alam Khan.


This is a highly suspect passage.  It's far too convenient a piece of "allegedly" historical evidence to establish a political position of Sikhs, and doesn't sound like something the independant opinion of a Moghul historian would even care to distinguish, as Muslims regard all non-Muslims as Kaffirs.  So why would they care about a new sect of Ramnaamis who called God Krishna and Ram?  First, Singh as a surname dates to the 8th century among "Hindu" Rajasthani warriors and hill chiefs.  So it would not likely be considered new and unique surname all of a sudden in the 17th century, as it had a very old useage and is no doubt derived from the Lion-man Avtaar Narasingh.  Second, the notion that Sikhs are NOT from amongst the Hindu's is not even admissable in a realistic sense as every form of Guru descended from Hindu families and part of Gurubani is derived from Vaishnava sants.  As to Sikhs having a "distinct religion of their own," at this historical time how would they have been differentiated by Moghuls from Kabirpanthis, Ramanands, Vaishnav and Shaivite Army acharas?  How would they have explained the Shiv saroop of the Akali Nihangs?  The Vaishnavas were showing all Hindus AND Muslims a separate path from time of Ramanuja in the 1100's, which is why we even have Sufi Panth.

"He had learnt Tantra and was locally famous for his occult powers." Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was a well known bhairaagi.  Now how had he learned tantra and siddhis if he was NOT from among the Hindus up until the moment he became a disciple of Guru Gobind Singh Ji?  



> These miscreants have a distinct religion of their own.
> "There are no thieves among these dogs."
> "The body of every one of them is like a piece of rock and in physical grandeur everyone of them is more than fifty men."
> 
> ...


I'm curious to research the reliability of such convenient "commentary" and how such manuscripts might have been altered and edited to present such a glorious view.  Because it's completely unbelievable that Jang Nama was written by someone who "hated" Sikhs and called them so many names while lauding their saintliness.  History is written to serve a propaganda purpose.  Who can believe this is written by an enemy who pretends to hate Sikhs?  Historians write the prevailing opinion.  The war against Sikhs was being waged and justified because they were "kaffirs."  To this day, has Muslim sentiment changed?  Why would it be so dramatically different in Jang Nama where Sikhs are blameless and praiseworthy, yet a war of extermination is on-going?  And how improbable it is that a Muslim historian would take time to note Sikhs were a separate religion from Hindus despite the fact that all non-believers are lumped together as hell-bound?  It's also possible that in their admiration, they were trying to deliberately distinguish Sikhs from kaffir Hindus by emphasizing their similarity to Islam in much the way some Muslims try to prove Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a secret Muslim convert.






~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## dalsingh (Jul 25, 2008)

Harjas: Whilst I can understand your opinion after coming face to face with some of the ignorant Khalistanis who adopt a supremacist world view hingeing  on their religion (and usually caste). It would be wrong to assume all people who believe in a separate Sikh identity are of that ilk. The danger with what you are doing, is that it ignores the vulnerable position of a minority. India is very bad in this this respect - not only against Sikhs but other minorities. 

I agree with your assertion that the average hot head "Khalistani" has neglected his/her faith to the point of dehumanising the so called "enemy", ignoring the humanity inherent in Sikhism. However, denying an independent Sikh identity is no solution. Instead, people need to be made more aware of the insaaniyat (humanity) that is a part and parcel of Sikhism.

All of the problems you have highlighted are a direct consequence, not of Sikh action, but rather Congress party activity in the late 70s and 80s. *Can you turn around and tell me that Sikhs were separatist prior to this, or were they loyal to India to the point that MANY gave their lives for its independence?* It's common knowledge that Indira Gandhi tried to manipulate Panjab politics for her own end. Also the infiltration of the so-called Khalistani movement is well known with some people involved speaking up about it and questioning its morality now. 

Recently I visited the doctors. The GP I saw was a Hindu Panjabi. He spoke about his anger at the politics of communalism followed by Congress. Those of us from a Panjabi background over a certain age will know prior to 84, many Sikhs considered Hindus as their brothers and sisters. 

If this has changed now - You have to truly and honestly ask why. I again reiterate it was the governments own policies that brought this about.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 25, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *
> 
> Yes, reading does not bring liberation.It is the actual practice of the teachings that may. Same is and can be stated about Granth sahib ji.I am right now only reading bani. It is not likely to be fruitful unless I put it into practice. *_*
> 
> ...



Hi Sikh 80,

Like I said above, I don't want to say any more on this matter. My view is simple. Sikhism is a distinct and separate faith. It is not Hinduism (all though Hidu references are used in Bani), It is not Islam (although Islamic refernces are used in Bani), it is not any other faith, it is Sikhi.

PS in a side note Sikhs in the UK are recognised (after the Mandala Case) as a distict and separate ethnic group as well as a religion.



MANDALA & anr. v- DOWELL LEE & anr. (1983) 1All ER      1062 - HOUSE OF LORDSFor a group to constitute an ethnic group, it must regard      itself and be regarded by others as a distinct community by virtue of certain      characteristics some of which are:-
 

a long shared history of which the group is conscious.
a cultural tradition of it's own including family
and social customs - not necessarily associated with religious observance.
a common geographical origin.
a common language not necessarily peculiar to the group.
a minority suffering oppression..
such groups can accept _converts_ and as long as they are accepted          by the group they are part of it..
a group is identifiable in terms of its ethnic origins if it is a segment          of the population distinguished from others by a sufficient combination          of shared customs and beliefs, traditions and characteristics from a common          or presumed common past, even if not drawn from what in biological terms          is a common racial stock.

http://www.cathcham.freeserve.co.uk/book/08.htm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The definition of "racial group' set out in s28(4) is almost word for word the same as the definition of "racial group' in s3(1) of the Race Relations Act 1976, which deals with racial discrimination in the workplace. For this reason cases under that act will be the starting point for deciding whether the victim of an alleged offence is or is not a member of a _racial group' and therefore whether the provisions relating to racially aggravated offences applies. The leading case defining "Racial Group" for the purpose of the Race Relations Act is Mandla v Dowell Lee [1983] 2AC 548 where the House of Lords had to decide whether refusing to allow a Sikh to wear his Turban constituted racial discrimination under the Act or constituted religious discrimination which is not covered by the Act. The House of Lords held that even though Sikhism is a religion Sikhs were to be regarded as a distinct racial group because of their awareness of a common history and culture as well as their common religion. 

Furthermore

In the lead case, Mandla v Dowell Lee [1983] 2 AC 548, Lord Fraser set out the factors to be considered in assessing whether a protected "ethnic group" exists,

"For a group to constitute an ethnic group in the sense of the Act of 1976, it must, in my opinion, regard itself, and be regarded by others, as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics. Some of these characteristics are essential; others are not essential but one or more of them will commonly be found and will help to distinguish the group from the surrounding community. The conditions which appear to me to be essential are these, (1) a long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; (2) a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance. In addition to these two essential characteristics the following characteristics are, in my opinion, relevant, (3) either a common geographical origin, or descent from a number of common ancestors; (4) a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; (5) a common literature peculiar to the group; (6) a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups or from the general community surrounding it; (7) being a minority or being an oppressed or dominant group within a larger community, for example (say, the inhabitants of England shortly after the Norman conquest and their conquerors might both be ethnic groups.) A group defined by reference to enough of these characteristics would be capable of including converts, for example, persons who marry into the group, and of excluding apostates. Provided a person who joins the group feels himself or herself to be a member of it, and is accepted by other members, then he is, for the purposes of the Act, a member. . . . In my opinion, it is possible for a person to fall into a particular racial group either by birth or adherence, and it makes no difference, so far as the Act of 1976 is concerned, by which route he finds his way into the group." ([1983] 2 AC at 562) 

Applying these criteria, Mandla held that Sikhs constituted an "ethnic group"; in subsequent cases Gypsies have also been held to be an "ethnic group" (CRE v Dutton [1989] IRLR 8 (CA)), while Rastafarians have not (Dawkins v Department of the Environment [1993] IRLR 284, [1993] ICR 517 (CA)). 

Interesting :yes:


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## Sikh80 (Jul 25, 2008)

> Those of us from a Panjabi background over a certain age will know prior to 84, many Sikhs considered Hindus as their brothers and sisters.
> If this has changed now - You have to truly and honestly ask why. I again reiterate it was the governments own policies that brought this about.


Dalsingh ji,

*I am an Indian and am happy as a sikh in the manner I live.  I do not know which part Of India you belong to.  I have the prerogative of undergoing the Trauma of 1984 . It was just an organized mass scale murder of Sikhs for political reasons and I give it no importance now. It was His will and that is all.*

*Sikhs even now command respect and things have only changed for the better. My non-sikhs neighbours [Hindu Ladies] visit Gurudwara for the Darshan Of Gurudwara and even for Langar.They like this tradition of the sikhs.

Yes, sikhs have a problem so far as the religion is not considered as a separate religion neither de juro nor de facto. It also has some reasons that can be attributed to the fact that we do not have a solid platform where sikhs can come together and share the feeling and put forward our grievances before the Government.  SGPC is almost non-functional. Sikhs Role models are almost absent. Manmohan singh [pm] is not a role model.

 Hindus treat sikhs with some respect only that is based on reciprocity. In the parts that we live  Hindus and sikhs live with  mutual respect that prevails in civil society.   

It is the outfits like Babar Khalsa etc. that is a cause of worry to the sikhs now  in India. A blast In Ludhiana can send the shudders through the spine lest 84 may begin again.
*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 25, 2008)

*Dear Randip ji,

I shall answer your post tomorrow after carefully going some Indian Judgements on this. But these days Judiciary is almost the same and   Supreme courts refer to the judgements of other countries. In that sense i do not think that I shall find something new.But give me a chance to give it a try.

Shall revert back on this soon.

Wjkk Wjkf*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 25, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> No two jokers do not make a circus.   But in a hand of poker, one joker can take everyone else to the poorhouse if jokers are wild. :}8-:  What are you saying?   That only one point of view is permitted per thread?  :advocate: Or that only one joker is permitted dominate the discussion?  :inca: Or something else? :whisling:




*Which of the following equation is incorrect.?

3>2
2+1=3
1+1+1=3

Take your time and respond..*


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## spnadmin (Jul 25, 2008)

Ok.


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## Astroboy (Jul 25, 2008)

Beliefs get stronger when more evidence supports them and they become weaker when something appears to be contradicting with them.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

sometimes it works the other way round


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## Sikh80 (Jul 25, 2008)

> Beliefs get stronger when more evidence supports them and they become weaker when something appears to be contradicting with them.


 *It is a very interesting a subject.Let us first understand as to what you mean by Belief. *

*It is the attitude where we think that a particular proposition is True. Once that belief is formed the mind starts carrying an impression/s that are reinforced over a period of time till it is ingrained in mind/consciousness that the proposition is perfectly ok. Once that stage is reached there is no need of further investigation into the matter. *

*Let us say,It is my belief that Sikhi is the best; and if the state of belief has reached that stage that it is ingrained in my sub conscious mind then no evidence can undermine it as the mind shall reject everything, at that point of time, even if something, that you call as evidence, does not support the truth, if any, in evidence. Let us avoid epistemological discussion; it is abstract for me. On the contrary, if the stage of belief is not at the level of irreversibility of the predisposition of the mind all that you have stated, namjap ji, should hold good.*

*Kindly refer the following link for further discussion. It is meant for people of philosophical dispositions that you have in ample.* 

Belief - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[/FONT]*Please feel free to correct me. Aad ji and Amar ji  are the persons who can tell more.*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

Belief turns into Faith

Faith is unshakable(though nothing in this world is)


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## Sikh80 (Jul 25, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> Belief turns into Faith
> 
> Faith is unshakable(though nothing in this world is)



*Faith is a belief.No!! *


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## Sikh80 (Jul 25, 2008)

*This is the second Aarti that I am posting below. There is the same essence that His names are different but He nourishes the devotess. 
The line that strike out is that contains the reference to Prana.
To my english speaking friends, I shall try to get the Meaning of this in English and shall post for reference.
*
*The lyrics text words of the eternal song.{ This has been the song/aarti that has been used by Bollywood]

Allaa tero naam  eeshwar tero naam
sab ko sanmatee de bhagawaan

maangon kaa sendoor naa chhoote
maan bahanon kee aans naa toote
deh binaa bhatake naa paran

o saare jag ke rakhawaale
nirbal ko bal denewaale
balawaanon ko de de dynaaan

Lyrics in Hindi Language

अल्लाह तेरो नाम, ईश्वर तेरो नाम
              अल्लाह तेरो नाम, ईश्वर तेरो नाम
              सबको सन्मति दे भगवान
              सबको सन्मति दे भगवान
              अल्लाह तेरो नाम ...

              माँगों का सिन्दूर ना छूटे
              माँगों का
              सिन्दूर ना छूटे
              माँ बहनो की आस ना टूटे
              माँ बहनो की
              आस ना टूटे
              देह बिना, दाता, देह बिना
              भटके ना प्राण
              सबको सन्मति दे भगवान
              अल्लाह तेरो नाम, ईश्वर तेरो नाम,

              ओ सारे जग के रखवाले
              ओ सारे जग के रखवाले


WJKK WJKF
*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 25, 2008)

then what else is faith?


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## Sikh80 (Jul 26, 2008)

*Faith is a some kind of belief in the correctness of some an idea that has yet to be established. 
*
*
*
*The word "faith" is usually reserved for concepts of Religion, as in theolgy ' sat' , or else in a God. *
*Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of either as a hope or sometimes trust as well. 
*
*Faith can refer to a religion. Faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes. Belief is something that we are convinced about to larger extent.*
*it is the way I look at these two terms that have subtle difference*

*I think Sinister ji and aad ji can attend to the abstracts or you may also refer to wikipedia that I also refer,sometimes, these days.
*


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 26, 2008)

Gurfateh

Hindu is more term represented by people living in a part of world more like a nation.While we as Khalsa are a faith wider then that.next thing about Vedanta read Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji from Searchgurbani.com.

God of Vedanta is same as us,as who is in all and visible to all,yet way to get that God in us is devotion to that lord and service to that's manifestations all around us and then relaiseing that in and out of us oops! by that time us does not remains but that only remains.

ਪੰਨਾ 657, ਸਤਰ 17
ਜਬ ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੂ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੂਹੀ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
जब हम होते तब तू नाही अब तूही मै नाही ॥
Jab ham hoṯë ṯab ṯû nâhî ab ṯûhî mai nâhî.
When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.
ਭਗਤ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 


Where as in Vedanta we have knowledge of truth and then state Aham Brahm Asmi and similar things in Islam in Iran An (i) Al(the ) Haq(Truth). exits.Differance could be made out.

Yes Kala Afghanaism(old name is Bhag ambalaism) teaches justification baded upon logic(scintific) so that could be treated as Fifth Philosophy of nyay darshan.

Our junior Vedanta failed it already.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 26, 2008)

*Dear Vijaydeep ji*

*Realized sages dwell in the essence, they can recognize ways that are at variance with it and tell us as to how to be in sync. with it. They are capable of representing truth in a definitive form and prompting other men to its pursuit. This is what all seer- prophets-Ram, Mahabir,  Buddh, Jesus, and Muhammad-have done. And so it was with the more recent Tulsidas, Kabir, and Guru Nanak dev ji. Deplorably, however, after a sage has departed from the world, instead of following the path shown by him, his followers gradually begin to revere and worship such physical objects as the places of his birth and death or the spots he had frequented during his life.[/FONT]*

*In other words, they proceed to idolize the realized Soul. Their memory of the sage is so sharp and strong at the beginning, but it gets blurred with time, and men come increasingly under the sway of misguided and false notions that finally crystallize into stupid, irrational practices and finally they end up treating that Great souls as the creator or the supreme soul. We find many Tuks in the bani that God and guru are same and Bani is Nirankaar and everything becomes Nirankaar. Hence the in built concept of Bani is diluted and the Vedantic concept, Ahm Brahm asmi also prevails as everything in the nature is His manifestation. Guru nanak and the fifth nanak have been adorably stated by Bhatts as Nirankaar. But we literally take them as Nirankaar. This becomes a grey are and many of us start believing that The realized soul is the supreme soul. The discussion is at the periphery of that you have stated. It was necessitated on account of the fact that we should know one another better so that we know the person whom we are talking to and what are likely to be his reactions. I am fairly comfortable with you as I find you fairly flexible and amenable to discussion not culminating into avoidable heated exchanges .[/FONT]*

*Interesting the post raises a question as to what is Hinduism and that it has not been properly identified. It would be amicable if it is presumed that Hindu is referred to as the person whom bani refers to as Hindu, may be, on account of the geo political reasons. It shall and should settle as to what we are referring to. Hindu is the one who practices Vedanic philosophy that is summed up in Vedas, Upnishdas, shastras,smirities and in nut shell in Gita as well. Gita deals with the sould and mind and as to how to connect ourselves with HIM. Right now we refer to Vedas and Gita as the source book of knowledge without undermining the value of the other scriptures. Deplorably, however, after a sage has departed from the world, instead of following the path shown by him, his followers gradually begin to revere and worship such physical objects as the places of his birth and death or the spots he had frequented during his life etc, etc. In other words, they proceed to idolize the great Soul. Their memory of the sage is indeed sharp and strong at the beginning, but it gets blurred with time, and men come increasingly under the sway of misguided and false notions that finally crystallize into stupid, irrational practices.[/FONT][/FONT]*

*I know many members will point out many things hence I shall try to be short to the extent.[/FONT]*

*Theoretically speaking, every religion should explain the concept of god and the method of attaining Him by whatever name called. If the God and attributes are same and there are differences on the method of attaining Him, one can look into that aspect as well. [/FONT]*
*The method of devotion is advocated in Sikhi and In Vedanta though the term devotion is Not exactly the same in the two.[/FONT]*

*The God part has been dealt out with in the earler post to which you have responded.[/FONT]*

*Your posts have three very interesting observations:[/FONT]*


*That path to meet Him in sikhi is      through complete devotion.[/FONT]*
*What happens to one in post-merger      state.[/FONT]*
*Ahm Brahm Asmi is absent in Sikhism.[/FONT]*
 
*Let us have a look at these so that we understand one another. Taking up the first point first let me detail out the concept as contained in Gita.[/FONT]*

*Path Of Devotion[/FONT]*

*Krishn promises in verses 20-22 of Chapter 9 : [/FONT]*

*"Men who do the pious deeds enjoined by the three Ved, who have tasted nectar and freed themselves from sin, and who wish for heavenly existence through worshipping me by yagya, go to heaven and enjoy godly pleasures for their virtuous acts."[/FONT]*

*Worship is doing Service to Lord as prescribed in other scriptures that we are discussing. [/FONT]*

*The path of devotion is also professed in Vedas. In subsequent posts I shall try to post even the verses along with the commentary that can prove beyond doubt that that there are many paths of attaining God and the one advocated by Lord Krishna is the path of devotion and the path of karma with no expectation of fruits or call it self less service and sikhi also recognizes it. I am not quoting from bani as you are much more versed than me in these matters.[/FONT]*

*Post Merger State[/FONT]*


*It is also suggested that the one who goes beyond the Ved, by knowing God, is a Brahmin. So, although the usefulness of the Ved does come' to an end for worshippers of the Brahmin class, there is no doubt about their utility for others. [/FONT]*

*It is proclaimed in the twenty eighth verse of Chapter 8 that after having secured knowledge of the essence of God, the yogi goes beyond the rewards of Vedic scriptural study and thus attains to absolution. [/FONT]*

*It is proclaimed that the one who realizes God becomes one with Lord.It is done by shedding ego, lust, desire and attachment and all other things that are stated in bani. Right now I cannot type much and shall do so if there is any need of any proof.[/FONT]*

*In any case one is with the ONE ,it is of little relevance to what happens to the one in the ppost merger stage. Shedding of ego is one of the important must as referred to Hindus scriptures. I do not find a difference of even an expression.[/FONT]*



*Ahm Brahm Asmi[/FONT]*


*'I am God' is the essence of the above. It is on account of the assumption that we all have divinity in us and that has the common element that the supreme soul or the super consciousness does have and that Is God. 
In bani we have similar concept, though not exactly the same, and I can also say that I have 'small element' of the Big one called as 'sat' or Reality. 
But as per bani He is everywhere including in His manifestation.[Prakrti][/FONT]*

*If He is in me and I have the potential of becoming the same or  I can also Become the same.[ though I shall not become the same as I cannot, on account of my limitations that I cannot be Sachiara that is edicted in jap Ji Sahib.] Sikhi has this much of concept of ahm Brahm Asmi.
I am reminded of a 'Tuk'

Maun Toon apna Mul pachan
[/FONT]* _[Know thy essence ..you have the same jyot..that you are also the same...]_
*But to state that sikhi is completely divorced from the concept of ‘Ahm Brahm Asmi’ would not be cent percent correct.*[/FONT]

kwieAw ngir bsq hir suAwmI hir inrBau inrvYru inrMkwrw ] (720-4, bYrwVI, mÚ 4)
  In the body-village, the Lord Master abides; the Lord is without fear, without vengeance, and without form.


kwieAw hir mMdru hir Awip svwry ] (1059-17, mwrU, mÚ 3)
 *The body is the temple of the Lord; the Lord Himself embellishes it*.




  iqsu ivic hir jIau vsY murwry ] (1059-17, mwrU, mÚ 3)
 *The Dear Lord dwells within it.*

AMqir dyau n jwnY AMDu ] (1160-7, BYrau, mÚ 5)
*The Divine Lord is within the self, but the spiritually blind one does not know this.*


*What is that Divine Lord. I think it is the part of consciousness only and even if sikh do not call ‘Ahm Brahm asmi’ but they are that way as we all are part of consciousness that is all pervasive in the nature and we are all part of that nature. It is just like that Newton found the law of gravity but the gravity was always there.*

*I end the note here.

Wjkk WjkF

{ Needless to state that I have quoted from standard work on Gita, My English is not good. If there are mistakes please bear with me]


*


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## dalbirk (Jul 26, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *pk70 ji,*
> 
> *Wjkk Wjkf*
> 
> ...


 Dear Sikh 80 ,
                   It may sound repetitive but if u go through this Vaar 1 of Bhai Gurdass Ji , PAURI 11 , u may see that Bhai Gurdass Ji actually crticises Rishi Vyasa Ji for terming himself as equal to Brahm ( All Powerful God ) in that . This resulted in the birth of ego which ultimately destroyed all the goodness of Rishi Vyasa . This whole Pauri is as follows 

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri11:SearchGurbani.com

Vaar 1 Pauri 11 Vedanta
ਸਿਆਮ ਵੇਦ ਕਉ ਸੋਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਥਿ ਵੇਦਾਂਤੁ ਬਿਆਸਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । 
siaam vayd kau sodhi kari madi vaydaantu biaasi sunaaiaa|
Vyas (Badarayan) recited Vedanta (sutras) after churning and researching the thought frame of the Samaveda.
Line  1   

ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਪਣਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਣਾਇਆ । 
kadanee badanee baaharaa aapay apanaa brahamu janaaiaa|
He put up before the self (atman) as identical to indescribable Brahm.
Line  2   

ਨਦਰੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਲਿਆਵਈ ਹਉਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ । 
nadaree kisai n|iaavaee haumai andari bharami bhulaaiaa|
He in invisible and the jiv wanders hither and thither in its delusions of self conceit.
Line  3   

ਆਪੁ ਪੁਜਾਇ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਦਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ । 
aapu pujaai jagat vichi bhaau bhagati daa maramu n paaiaa|
By establishing the self as the Brahm he is in fact established one's own self as worthy of worship and therefore remained unknown to the mysteries of loving devotion.
Line  4   

ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੀ ਵੇਦਿ ਮਥਿ ਅਗਨੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤਪਤਿ ਤਪਾਇਆ । 
tripati n aavee vaydi madi aganee andari tapati tapaaiaa|
Churning of the Vedas could not obtain peace for him and he started scorching one and all in the heat of is ego.
Line  5   

ਮਾਇਆ ਡੰਡ ਨ ਉਤਰੇ ਜਮ ਡੰਡੈ ਬਹੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਰੂਆਇਆ । 
maaiaa dand n utaray jam dandai bahu dukhi rooaaiaa|
The rod of maya always hung over his head and he suffered extremely because of the constant fear of the Yama, the god of death.
Line  6   

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਉਪਦੇਸਿਆ ਮਥਿ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਗੁਨਿ ਗੀਤ ਕਰਾਇਆ । 
naaradi muni upadaysiaa madi bhaagavat guni geet karaaiaa|
Having obtained knowledge from Narad, he recited Bhagvat and thus eulogised God.
Line  7   

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਰਨੀ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਇ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥੧੧॥ 
binu saranee nahi koi taraaiaa ॥11॥
Without surrender before the Guru none could get across (the world ocean).
Line  8   

   As such a state of a GURMUKH is higher than even Rishi Vyasa , who died unfulfilled because he acted under the effect of Maya ( Ego ) . Gurbani does not state that the WORD OF THE GURU is equal to Vedas , rather it is much higher than the Vedas . Also Vedas don't reveal the truth about God .
Regards ,
 Dalbir Singh


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## dalbirk (Jul 26, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter
> 
> ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
> jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
> ...


 

Dear Harjas Bhain Ji ,
                  I like to say Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a NEW FAITH altogether as is evident from following Vaar Of Bhai Gurdass Ji ( VAAR 1 , Pauri 45 )


Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri45:SearchGurbani.com


Line  3   

ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ । 
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|
In the world, he established the authority (of his doctrines) and started a religion, devoid of any impurity (niramal panth).


AND

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri31:SearchGurbani.com




ਸਬਦਿ ਜਿਤੀ ਸਿਧਿ ਮੰਡਲੀ ਕੀਤੋਸੁ ਅਪਣਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ । 
sabadi jitee sidhi mandalee keetosu apanaa pandu niraalaa|
Through (the power of the word) Shabad he conquered the siddhs and propounded his altogether new way of life.
Line  7   


   Bhai Gurdass Ji in his VAAR 1 , PAURI 31 & VAAR 1 , PAURI 45 is actually pointing that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a ALTOGETHER NEW RELIGION . So  the statement is not true that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a reformist movement in Sikhism .
The mentioning of so many Hindu examples in Gurbani is due to the fact that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's target audience was primarily Hindu only . When in Baghdad or Mecca , he did not use Hindu examples at all , instead he used Muslim examples to make understand his point , similarly for yogis , he did use only Yogic terms .

Regards ,
 Dalbir Singh


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## Sikh80 (Jul 26, 2008)

dalbirk said:


> Dear Sikh 80 ,
> It may sound repetitive but if u go through this Vaar 1 of Bhai Gurdass Ji , PAURI 11 , u may see that Bhai Gurdass Ji actually crticises Rishi Vyasa Ji for terming himself as equal to Brahm ( All Powerful God ) in that . This resulted in the birth of ego which ultimately destroyed all the goodness of Rishi Vyasa . This whole Pauri is as follows
> 
> Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar1Pauri11:SearchGurbani.com
> ...





*I thank you for a quick response. 

I admit my ignorance and do respect your views as I cannot respond to Vaaran ,But I have  full reason to believe that what you have stated would be correct.

I do respect your views.

I shall react, if needed, only after going Thru. Vaaran. But it shall be very time consuming as Vaaran itself is a mini-Granth and worthy of respect.

Regards

*


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## Sikh80 (Jul 26, 2008)

*Respected Dalbir ji,

My understanding that Vedas are also word of God was based on these lines and some other lines of Granth Sahib and it is in this context that I had stated that Vedas are also word of God.*

* However, I simply can not make out as to how Vaaran can be superior to the literal meaning that is assignable to the words that are stated in unambiguous manner in the main Scripture of Sikhs.
It should only help and should be treated with a degree of reverence that is fractionally/marginally lower/lesser than the Granth sahib. 

Sikhism is all about being Sachiara and remembering HIM in sahaj .And the unsolved mystery is  who pronounces Sikh philosophy. 
Kindly let it go if you differ.
*

  ccY cwir vyd ijin swjy cwry KwxI cwir jugw ] (432-19, Awsw, mÚ 1)
*Chacha: He created the four Vedas, the four sources of creation, and the four ages*


  kl mY eyku nwmu ikrpw iniD jwih jpY giq pwvY ] (632-11, soriT, mÚ 9)
   In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the One Lord is the treasure of mercy; chanting it, one obtains salvation.

    Aaur Drm qw kY sm nwhin ieh ibiD bydu bqwvY ]2] (632-11, soriT, mÚ 9)
 *No other religion is comparable to this; so speak the Vedas. ||2||[/FONT]*

Awpy swsqu Awpy bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
*He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.*


 Awpy Git Git jwxY Bydu ] (1150-13, BYrau, mÚ 5)
He knows the secrets of each and every heart.[/FONT]

There is something that I miss. 
So many lines about Vedas and still these are rejected in allied Vaaran! Something should be wrong with my way of thinking.


ਗਉੜੀ  ਸੁਖਮਨੀ  ਮਃ  ੫  ॥ 
Ga*oṛī sukẖmanī mehlā 5. 
Gauree Sukhmani, Fifth Mehl, 

ਸਲੋਕੁ  ॥ 
Salok. 
Shalok: 

ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
Ik*oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

ਆਦਿ  ਗੁਰਏ  ਨਮਹ  ॥ 
Āḏ gur*ė namah. 
I bow to the Primal Guru. 

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ  ਗੁਰਏ  ਨਮਹ  ॥ 
Jugāḏ gur*ė namah. 
I bow to the Guru of the ages. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ  ਨਮਹ  ॥ 
Saṯgur*ė namah. 
I bow to the True Guru. 

ਸ੍ਰੀ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ  ਨਮਹ  ॥੧॥ 
Sarī gurḏėv*ė namah. ||1|| 
I bow to the Great, Divine Guru. ||1|| 

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ  ॥ 
Asatpaḏī. 
Ashtapadee: 

ਸਿਮਰਉ  ਸਿਮਰਿ  ਸਿਮਰਿ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਪਾਵਉ  ॥ 
Simra*o simar simar sukẖ pāva*o. 
Meditate, meditate, meditate in remembrance of Him, and find peace. 

ਕਲਿ  ਕਲੇਸ  ਤਨ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਮਿਟਾਵਉ  ॥ 
Kal kalės ṯan māhi mitāva*o. 
Worry and anguish shall be dispelled from your body. 

ਸਿਮਰਉ  ਜਾਸੁ  ਬਿਸੁੰਭਰ  ਏਕੈ  ॥ 
Simra*o jās bisumbẖar ėkai. 
Remember in praise the One who pervades the whole Universe. 

ਨਾਮੁ  ਜਪਤ  ਅਗਨਤ  ਅਨੇਕੈ  ॥ 
Nām japaṯ agnaṯ anėkai. 
His Name is chanted by countless people, in so many ways. 

ਬੇਦ  ਪੁਰਾਨ  ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ  ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ  ॥ 
 Bėḏ purān simriṯ suḏẖākẖ*yar. 
 The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances, 

 ਕੀਨੇ  ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮ  ਇਕ  ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ  ॥ 
 Kīnė rām nām ik ākẖ*yar. 
 were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

ਕਿਨਕਾ  ਏਕ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਜੀਅ  ਬਸਾਵੈ  ॥ 
Kinkā ėk jis jī*a basāvai. 
That one, in whose soul the One Lord dwells - 

ਤਾ  ਕੀ  ਮਹਿਮਾ  ਗਨੀ  ਨ  ਆਵੈ  ॥ 
Ŧā kī mahimā ganī na āvai. 
the praises of his glory cannot be recounted. 

ਕਾਂਖੀ  ਏਕੈ  ਦਰਸ  ਤੁਹਾਰੋ  ॥ 
Kāŉkẖī ėkai ḏaras ṯuhāro. 
Those who yearn only for the blessing of Your Darshan - 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਉਨ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਮੋਹਿ  ਉਧਾਰੋ  ॥੧॥ 
Nānak un sang mohi uḏẖāro. ||1|| 
Nanak: save me along with them! ||1|| 

ਸੁਖਮਨੀ  ਸੁਖ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਨਾਮੁ  ॥ 
Sukẖmanī sukẖ amriṯ parabẖ nām. 
Sukhmani: Peace of Mind, the Nectar of the Name of God. 

ਭਗਤ  ਜਨਾ  ਕੈ  ਮਨਿ  ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ  ॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
Bẖagaṯ janā kai man bisrām. Rahā*o. 
The minds of the devotees abide in a joyful peace. ||Pause|| 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਗਰਭਿ  ਨ  ਬਸੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran garabẖ na basai. 
Remembering God, one does not have to enter into the womb again. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਦੂਖੁ  ਜਮੁ  ਨਸੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran ḏūkẖ jam nasai. 
Remembering God, the pain of death is dispelled. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਕਾਲੁ  ਪਰਹਰੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran kāl parharai. 
Remembering God, death is eliminated. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਦੁਸਮਨੁ  ਟਰੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran ḏusman tarai. 
Remembering God, one's enemies are repelled. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਸਿਮਰਤ  ਕਛੁ  ਬਿਘਨੁ  ਨ  ਲਾਗੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ simraṯ kacẖẖ bigẖan na lāgai. 
Remembering God, no obstacles are met. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਜਾਗੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran an*ḏin jāgai. 
Remembering God, one remains awake and aware, night and day. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਭਉ  ਨ  ਬਿਆਪੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran bẖa*o na bi*āpai. 
Remembering God, one is not touched by fear. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਦੁਖੁ  ਨ  ਸੰਤਾਪੈ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran ḏukẖ na sanṯāpai. 
Remembering God, one does not suffer sorrow. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕਾ  ਸਿਮਰਨੁ  ਸਾਧ  ਕੈ  ਸੰਗਿ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kā simran sāḏẖ kai sang. 
The meditative remembrance of God is in the Company of the Holy. 

ਸਰਬ  ਨਿਧਾਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਹਰਿ  ਰੰਗਿ  ॥੨॥ 
Sarab niḏẖān Nānak har rang. ||2|| 
All treasures, O Nanak, are in the Love of the Lord. ||2|| 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਰਿਧਿ  ਸਿਧਿ  ਨਉ  ਨਿਧਿ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran riḏẖ siḏẖ na*o niḏẖ. 
In the remembrance of God are wealth, miraculous spiritual powers and the nine treasures. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ਤਤੁ  ਬੁਧਿ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran gi*ān ḏẖi*ān ṯaṯ buḏẖ. 
In the remembrance of God are knowledge, meditation and the essence of wisdom. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਜਪ  ਤਪ  ਪੂਜਾ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran jap ṯap pūjā. 
In the remembrance of God are chanting, intense meditation and devotional worship. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਬਿਨਸੈ  ਦੂਜਾ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran binsai ḏūjā. 
In the remembrance of God, duality is removed. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਤੀਰਥ  ਇਸਨਾਨੀ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran ṯirath isnānī. 
In the remembrance of God are purifying baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਦਰਗਹ  ਮਾਨੀ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran ḏargeh mānī. 
In the remembrance of God, one attains honor in the Court of the Lord. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਹੋਇ  ਸੁ  ਭਲਾ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran ho*ė so bẖalā. 
In the remembrance of God, one becomes good. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੈ  ਸਿਮਰਨਿ  ਸੁਫਲ  ਫਲਾ  ॥ 
Parabẖ kai simran sufal falā. 
In the remembrance of God, one flowers in fruition. 

ਸੇ  ਸਿਮਰਹਿ  ਜਿਨ  ਆਪਿ  ਸਿਮਰਾਏ  ॥ 
Sė simrahi jin āp simrā*ė. 
They alone remember Him in meditation, whom He inspires to meditate.



In any case it is not meant to advance the discussion as I have a feeling that I was incorrect _ab-intio._ 

Regards again.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 26, 2008)

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥ 
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥ 
paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥ 
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||  

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ 
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. 

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ 
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. 

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ 
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.  

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ 
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​



> Dear Harjas Bhain Ji ,
> I like to say Guru Nanak Dev Ji started a NEW FAITH altogether as is evident from following Vaar Of Bhai Gurdass Ji ( VAAR 1 , Pauri 45 )
> 
> Line 3
> ...



mariaa, has conquered, he has killed  
jagati (Sanskrit): In the world, world
sikaa, saints, teachings, to learn
viichi, within, among
niramal, pure
pandu, path
chalaaiaa, leads us on, established, carries out



"The world has been conquered within by His teachings.  Nanak has established the pure path."

Certainly "doctrines' doesn't appear anywhere in this vaaran.

Even if we interpret pandu as panth and change to say: "Nanak has established the pure religion."  There's nothing in the phrase to suggest He has started a new religion with it's own doctrines or anything like that.  So it's misleading to translate anything about doctrines, authority, starting a new religion.  Because those words are not there, the context is not there.


And the proof is context:


ਚੜ੍ਹੇ ਸਵਾਈ ਦਿਹਿ ਦਿਹੀ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ । 
charhhay savaaee dihi dihee kalijugi naanak naamu dhiaaiaa|
His impact increased by leaps and bounds and he made people of kaliyug remember Nam.

ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਦੁਖ ਸਬਾਇਆ । 
vinu naavai horu manganaa siri dukhaan day dukh sabaaiaa|
Desiring anything except the Nam of the Lord, is invitation to multiplying sufferings.

ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ । 
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|​​
"The world has been conquered within by His teachings.  Nanak has established the pure path."​

If Gurbani intended Sikhism to establish a new religion, it would clearly be stated in Gurbani itself, and not only found in some isolated phrase from Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars.  If you establish a new religion there isn't anything gupt, or hidden which requires diligence to uncover.  Moreover, Gurbani doesn't contradict.  When Gurbani says that the nirgun Lord brought the avtaaras into being, and that the Jyot from the das avtaaras is now in Guruji, that is the continuance of a pure path of righteousness which leads people to God.  It is not some out of context new religion.  It is re-establishing the true Dharma, the righteousness of the *original *spiritual path to liberation.  Think logically, if it is the foundation of a new religion, it would have new doctrines.  But it is a continuation of the original teachings.  So everything in this vaaran is about Guru Nanak being so great He has established the righteousness of the Dharma in the Kalyug when it had fallen down.  Because He is Shabad-Jyot of the nirguna, He leads suffering creation back to remembrance of the Lord.  Guru Nanak is not great because He founded a new religion, but because He comes to the world in age after age to establish the Dharma and be a Light in darkness.  He is the sarguna, avataar of the nirgun Lord Himself, that is why Guru Nanak is so great.  He loves us.  The Lord Himself comes to us, "You are lost and suffering, come back to Me."  Again, logical proof would be... what is the new religion teaching?  If the path and teachings are same as the original what can be said?  Gurbani itself is saying Guruji is an avtaara who came to the world as Raam, as Krishna and now:  

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.​
And this interpretation of Gurbani matches with the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji.  So there is no contradiction whatsoever.  Only when you try to force it to talk about new religion, new doctrines, rejection of ancient teachings like yugs, avtaaras, Dharma, and Naam mantra does it start to contradict.  Since these were all taught in ancient Upanishads, the "new religion" part doesn't make sense.  Religion, as translation of the word panth, or even pandu can make sense in this context, as in meaning "true religion," or "pure religion."  But not "new" religion.  The word "new" is not in the vaaran, or by implied meaning "started" in place of "new" does not appear either.  So nothing is started.  Nothing is new.  Guruji did not "start a new religion with His own doctrines" per this vaaran.  That is falsely implied to support a Singh Sabha anti-sanatan viewpoint.  But all it does is create contradictions in Gurbani.  It cannot even support itself as an accurate viewpoint by reconciling seeming contradictions, it creates unexplainable contradictions.  To this day Sikhs are still debating is Guru Nanak God?  Because they can't accept what the Gurbani says, because Singh Sabha rejects concept of avtaaras.  Yet according to the sanatan view, not only is it clear as a bell, but it matches up on every level, not only within Gurbani, but even within Upanishads and Vaishnava Puranas.  And with ideas and teachings of this complexity, that cannot be an accident.


ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ । 
maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|
"The world has been conquered within by His teachings. Nanak has established the pure religion."​
"Whenever virtue declines and unrighteousness rises, I manifest Myself as an embodied being. To protect the Saints and Sages, to destroy the evil-doers and to establish Dharma(righteousness), I am born from age to age." ~Bhagavad Gita 4.7 and 4.8​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## dalsingh (Jul 26, 2008)

> Harjas:
> If Gurbani intended Sikhism to establish a new religion, it would clearly be stated in Gurbani itself, and not only found in some isolated phrase from Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars. If you establish a new religion there isn't anything gupt, or hidden which requires diligence to uncover.



Please also take note of what the Gurus actually did in their life times.  Do you not think that they were taking steps to develop and propagate a new way of life?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 26, 2008)

> Please also take note of what the Gurus actually did in their life times. Do you not think that they were taking steps to develop and propagate a new way of life?



First I would ask you to consider how different Sikhism can be from sanatan Dharma if Gurbani says Guruji is the avtaar who comes after Krishna?  So we are looking at the re-establishment of original spirituality.  Another example will be the teaching from Gurbani itself about yugs.  As time increases, so the legs of religion fall off until in Kalyug, the Dharma is standing on only one leg.  If avtaara comes to right the balance of Dharma, is that a new lifestyle?  Because that implies there was no salvation before Guruji.  Everyone must be reborn and become a Sikh to have salvation.  And that is foolishness.  Kabir ji was not of Sikh religion.  Yet, Gurbani recognizes him as a Gurmukh and his bani belongs to Gurubani.  So clearly, there is nothing in Sikhism which is like Christianity or Islam which consider themselves to be a kind of "new dispensation," that any other teaching before theirs was falsehood. 

The Vaishnavas were the initial reformers who started free kitchens for the poor, admitting untouchables, women and Muslims, teaching that liberation is found in chanting and singing praise of the Names, Ram, Ram, Govinda, Gopala, Mukundey, Niranjana, Vasudeyva.  The key difference with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all His forms, was the emphasis on householder and not monastic.  But even this difference was predicted in the Vedas.


"The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi" ~Rig Veda​

"Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh serei swahaa" 
"Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well" ~Yujar Veda​

"The Kali Yuga shall dawn on Earth with radical manifestation of destruction of Karma and Dharma to such an extent that every situation shall be colored by sinful activities. At that distressful moment, the Creator shall send down a spiritual luminary in the form of NANAK from the Khatria clan. He will spread the message of NAAM, the Holy life Force, by introducing the primacy of meditation and thus washing clean the sinful ways by the waters of love." ~ Bhavishya (Bhavekhath) Purana​

"Wahyanti karyanti jathputi athak etwaha brahamadeya, teisah Gur et WAHEGURU" 
"He will use a unique single syllable mantra which has not been utilized before at any Age or Era. This will be WAHEGURU." ~Patanjali​
Since these are ancient predictions... what is new?



ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥ 
sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River. 

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥ 
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||

ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
siree guroo siree guroo siree guroo sath jeeo ||
The Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the True, Dear Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ਨਿਜ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਇਹੈ ਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਹੋਇ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਲਹਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
gur kehiaa maan nij nidhhaan sach jaan manthra eihai nis baasur hoe kalyaan lehehi param gath jeeo ||
Respect and obey the Guru's Word; this is your own personal treasure - know this mantra as true. Night and day, you shall be saved, and blessed with the supreme status.
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​


Sikhism is a re-establishment of sanatan Dharma for the age of Kaliyug.  It is in no way divorced from the original teachings of sanatan Dharma.  That is a myth propagated by Singh Sabha reform.  Gurbani clearly and very openly, speaks for and identifies itself.  Guru Nanak Dev Ji will come again as Kalki avtaar.  It even says so in Gurbani.  So it is a lineage, a continuation.  These are ancient teachings of righteousness originating in Vedanta.  Where is the "new religion?"


~Bhul chak maaf


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## Sikh80 (Jul 26, 2008)

> Please also take note of what the Gurus actually did in their life times.  Do you not think that they were taking steps to develop and propagate a new way of life?


*
Dalsingh ji/Dalbirk ji

I have been stating quotes/tuks from the Granth sahib.This is the main scripture of sikhs. I do remember that you have also reacted quite strongly to Vaaran.

Is it necessary that we refer the Vaars instead of the Granth. 

I have quoted about more than 10 lines wherein Vedas are held in high esteem by Granth sahib. No one could point out fault with that. Respected ranbir ji, has posted some lines out of which one line appeared to be saying something that did tantamount to that Vedas are not to be relied upon. In such cases don't you see that there are contradictory statements in the Bani,if it is read on face.

If 10 lines speak 'X' and 1 line speak "y'which line should we pick up for the context in which the references to vedas have been made. Surely, the answer should be context. But we have to find all the answers from Granth sahib and not from Vaaran.

Vaaran is not Dhur Ki bani.

I fail to reason out the  Reason of reason of  the reasoning for this kind of reasoning.
We are referring to two scriptures; One is main and has a view the other is non-main and has a view. 

Which view should prevail.?

Vaaran should be to help the things that are not fully explained in Granth sahib. Guru ji knew much more than his scribe.

Whenever an Eternal ordinance is passed one looks for the intention in the Ordinance and not the debates and thinking that might have gone before promulgation of the main ordinance.In the context Vaaran holds the same position. Correct me please.


Regarding your comment above ,irrespective of whether it is a derivative of vedas or sanatan Dharma or not, I do feel that Sikhi is only a way of life and practice of Naam jap and as to how to be sachiara and may be much more.

This is the essence of the Granth sahib besides many other flaovors that I cannot even count. For the time being I conclude that vaaran has its independent identity and that should not be the case at all.


Further, when we say that the sikh philosophy is  .."....."
Whom are we referring to the pronouncer of this sikh philosophy.
Please clarify the points raised on this specific issue. We are not Discussing Hinduism here. 

Wjkk WjkF*


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## pk70 (Jul 26, 2008)

(quote)
*Vaaran is not Dhur Ki bani.

I fail to reason out the as Reason of reason of  the reasoning for this kind of reasoning.

Wow, when Bhai Gurdas Ji is needed, use him, otherwise discard his views because it doesn't suit into argument. Wonderful is the debate and wonderful are the debaters.
*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 26, 2008)

Bhai Gurdas Ji is authoritative.  The quest is to find the closest approximation to absolute truth which is humanly possible given people's varied backgrounds, and understanding.  I have no interest in propaganda to bolster a viewpoint.  By propaganda I mean deliberately ignoring, censoring or otherwise invalidly discrediting a viewpoint because it's not the one I personally favor.

I have already radically changed my position on a number of issues because I myself have become convinced the different viewpoint has more credibility.

One thing I do notice, when the mainstream Singh Sabha (and by this I mean Sikh sovereignty anti-Hinduism) viewpoint is asserted, it is often done so without balancing the bani.  In other words, a particular phrase or tuuk will be cited expecting it to be definitive proof, rather than answering or tackling the troublesome bani's which are the polar opposite.  In my opinion, all bani must be balanced and reconciled.  The true opinion is not going to lie on any extreme, answering one tuuk but contradicting another.  Where there are seeming contradictions, that's the place where a philosophy forum is good to sort things out, because you can listen intently to other interpretations.

Nothing I believe or say will qualify an opinion for anyone else.  But the fact we can engage in discussions from radically different perspectives, is for me, a learning process.  I would hope if there is anything useful in what I share for someone, they can use it.  Because ultimately, every individual interprets bani for himself based on where he/she is at.  My opinion will change and mature over time.  I can only learn from all of you.

Again, Bhai Gurdas Ji is VERY authoritative.  At least, much more so than I myself.  That doesn't mean I accept every interpretation of what Bhai Gurdas is being credited with saying.  It means I will try to look very carefully over it and modify my opinions as needed.  Bhai Ji IS the KEY to understanding Gurbani.


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## dalsingh (Jul 26, 2008)

Harjas - Not everything the Singh Sabha movement produced was negative.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 27, 2008)

pk70 said:


> (quote)
> *Vaaran is not Dhur Ki bani.
> 
> I fail to reason out the  Reason of reason of  the reasoning for this kind of reasoning.
> ...


 *
Pk70 ji,*

Yes, we all are wonderful because our Creator is also wonderful and that is how the things should be
Have seen your comments made in isolation.

It is only through discussions that we learn and appreciate the others view points. No one has discarded anyone. We could not find area of convergence. I had to leave on account of the fact that I do not want to invite the wrath of the other respected members who have a strong view about the subject being discussed. This balancing act is also a must for the healthy promotion of the discussion and hence learning.

However, I have learnt a lot from this discussion  and that is discussion all about. 

_ You may like to reply as to which view should we take as that one should prevail in case there is some clarification  sought on the point where there is conflict between the Vaaran and the Granth Sahib._

Common sense approach tells us that main scripture cannot be overlooked while referring to Vaaran. As other members have not responded on this ,_I shall request you to opine._

You may kindly like to reply to the doubts expressed in relation to Main Bani of sikhs and Vaaran which I would ,right now, not call this as _Dhur ki Bani__      as it is not and was never so. How can  it be so.? __

It is again an area a term that we should discuss.
_ 
We have many grey areas that are to be sorted out. We are all individuals with unique way of appreciating things on account of our attitudes and impressions of the things. We try to sort it out through discussions only. This is a learning process for all of us.

If ,in the process of discussion, one opts to leave the discussion on account of likely mis interpretation of things it should be explained as to _what is vaaran in relation to Granth._ 

_and_ 
who actually is the one who pronounces the sikh philosophy; I have the presumption that the interpretation of the philosophy is also subject to change over a period of time. Guru ji has Given us Bani that has to be reconciled as there are some statements that are not self supportive but are in conflict with each other at some places.

 Sikhi does not believe in Incarnation of god is well stated in Granth sahib. But then we have many who would not find it so after going through the scripture. 

Even as a learner one tries to make a point and bring it to the notice of others. Silence is not the best way of looking for answers  nor the abandoning  the discussion either.

Who gives us Naam ,is clarified in the Granth. But then we take 'waheguru' as naam. It may or may not be so as per the appreciation of things.

The Ardas of sikhs also states 'Guru Har.... Dhiyaye jis dhite sub-dukh jaye'. Why don't we say that we should remember Him when we are not at peace.? 

There are many other tuks that I do want to discuss. And I shall discuss provided I get a reply. If one choses to remain silient, it is his /her prerogative. 

The debates become  useless if someone takes a decision  to opt out abruptly for HIs belief sysyem has become so much ingrained in the mind that one is not able to even listen to the view points.  
Being judgmental about other is  not likely to serve the purpose. 

It may look to be of academic in interest. But we all are responsible to the posterity. The quest goes on like this only  and those with better understanding should help others in the process of learning the things that we hold in reverence  i.e bani. 


Regards !


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 27, 2008)

> Harjas - Not everything the Singh Sabha movement produced was negative.


I'm not really interested in any opinion of negative or positive.  What interests me from a research perspective is finding there exists a unique organization whose establishment coincides with British Raj plans to divide Indian communal groups that had lived in harmony for generations.  An organization set up whose express objective was to remove all traces of Hinduism from Sikhism, to deny any relationship with Hindu culture, and to expunge from Gurdwaras and Gurbani any definitions or interpretations favoring sanatan identity.


THAT is what you call massive, deliberate, historical and spiritual distortion.  And it's very existence is propagandistic and suspect.  It's influence on modern Sikhism is absolute with all central Sikh authority and majority of Gurdwaras subscribing to the Singh Sabha world-view which blindly rejects the sanatan heritage of Sikhism.  


_"Everything that was against Gurus teaching was rejected. Rites and customs considered consistent with Sikh doctrine and tradition were established."_
Yet, they can't even explain eulogy to das avtaara in SGGS Ji and Dasam Granth bani, besides claiming it is all a "historical footnote," "some manipulation of familiarity for Hindu masses," or "mythology."  They overlook tuuks of Gurbani which claim Guru ji Himself is an avtaara.  It is propagandistic to assert this world-view was the correct one, and it massively reorganized and redefined Sikh institutions establishing central control while demonizing the sanatan history.  How anyone can accept such an institution as historically credible defies logic.  Modern Sikh history and self-definition started in 1879.  It has no credible history past that date from these "scholarly" sources.




> _Sanatan Singh Sabha is the original Singh Sabha formed in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar.  The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism as Sikhs to be a wider denomination of Sanatan Dharma by one who practices karma and bhakti [of God] in any way for the achievement of Moksha, or spiritual liberation.
> 
> As a purely political reaction to the formation of the Sanatan Singh Sabha, a second Singh Sabha was formed and named the Tat Khalsa ('True' Khalsa) by The Governing British Administration based at Lahore in 1879 [also called Lahore Singh Sabha]. The British Raj utilized the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia Sikhs to apply their ‘divide and rule’ policy which sought to negate Sanatan Sikhism in the name of ‘reform’ whereas Sanatan Sikhism is predominantly inclusive, the Tat Khalsa is not.
> 
> ...


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## Astroboy (Jul 27, 2008)

ਸਲੋਕੁ  ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਬਹੁ  ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ  ਬਹੁ  ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ  ਪੇਖੇ  ਸਰਬ  ਢਢੋਲਿ  ॥
बहु सासत्र बहु सिम्रिती पेखे सरब ढढोलि ॥
Baho sāsṯar baho simriṯī pėkẖė sarab dẖadẖol.
The many Shaastras and the many Simritees - I have seen and searched through them all.
ਪੂਜਸਿ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰੇ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਮ  ਅਮੋਲ  ॥੧॥
पूजसि नाही हरि हरे नानक नाम अमोल ॥१॥
Pūjas nāhī har harė Nānak nām amol. ||1||
They are not equal to Har, Haray - O Nanak, the Lord's Invaluable Name. ||1||


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## Sikh80 (Jul 27, 2008)

Yes namjap ji,Har Harey! is the Name of Hindu God. It was the compulsion of the time that Guru Sahib had to incorporate these terms. Har Haray! would be taken as Shiva. Har Har Mahadev, is also, generally, meant for addressing Lord Shiva only.
I do not know that you want to convey. 
The Broader question is how to reconcile the Tuks in Bani that are contradictory  in nature and  what is the role  of   Vaaran in this context. 
Can these supersede the Granth.?


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## Sikh80 (Jul 27, 2008)

*Namjap ji,


* *I am giving below a line that states clearly that if one goes through the Vedas and allied scriptures understand the essence of the formless. It is in such a situation that one finds that there is a need of reconcilation of the things. I am not a critic ,just studying to conceptualize the things.To whom should I refer to make the things clear as to follow the lines that you have quoted or be governed by that is stated below.?

Should I be governed by Vaaran!! 
Or
just leave the things and do Simran......
* 


Shalok, First Mehl:
 swsqR byd purwx pV@Mqw ] (1242-13, swrMg, mÚ 1)
Some read the Shaastras, the Vedas and the Puraanas.
 pUkwrMqw AjwxMqw ] (1242-13, swrMg, mÚ 1)
They recite them, out of ignorance.
 jW bUJY qW sUJY soeI ] (1242-13, swrMg, mÚ 1)
If they really understood them, they would realize the Lord.


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## pk70 (Jul 27, 2008)

(*Pk70 ji,*

Yes, we all are wonderful because our Creator is also wonderful and that is how the things should be
Have seen your comments made in isolation.

It is only through discussions that we learn and appreciate the others view points. No one has discarded anyone. We could not find area of convergence. I had to leave on account of the fact that I do not want to invite the wrath of the other respected members who have a strong view about the subject being discussed. This balancing act is also a must for the healthy promotion of the discussion and hence learning.
(quote Sikh80)

Sikh 80 Ji

*Please reread Bhain Harjas ji's response just after my comments, she understood my comments and did her best to clarify it, then compare your response to my comments; that clearly says you just want to look on words and come up with the old questions already answered. I don't call it debate, its dragging. Nothing personal, as you claim you are learning why do you smell anger from other members who are responding to your repeated( and answered) questions. Till August 2, I am not able to participate in debate ( though its more dragging)actively but i shall come back. Guru Shabad quoted Nam jap ji is clear, you already stated in understanding Gurbani that words should be understood in their contexts, why you are stating it is for Shiva. If we follow that kind of interpretation then Gurbani will be guiding Sikhs to worship Ram, Krishan, Shiva, Vishnu and many more sending them back into thick mist they were before Guru Nanak. Playing with the words do not solve the issue, there is no contradiction in Gurbani. I shall prove you that one has to follow Gurbani in totality. Some time I feel, what is the use, gentleman once says" Yes now I understand, next time comes up with same kind of question only language is different.Please  bear in mind, I am not angry, just trying to converse with you based on points already discussed.  Excuse me. Rest next time.
*


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## Astroboy (Jul 27, 2008)

Sikh80 Ji,

Let me give you a different approach to understand God. 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The subject matter of the whole Veda is divided into [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]  
Karma-Kanda   
Upasana-Kanda   
Jnana-Kanda. [/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Karma-Kanda or Ritualistic Section 
deals with various sacrifices and rituals. [/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Upasana-Kanda or Worship-Section deals 
with various kinds of worship or meditation.[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Jana-Kanda or Knowledge-Section deals with the 
highest knowledge of Nirguna Brahman. (Nirguna = without 
attributes or forms. Brahman = the Supreme Reality).[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Mantras and the Brahmanas 
constitute Karma-Kanda (rituals).[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Aranyakas constitute Upasana-Kanda (worship).[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Upanishads constitute Jnana-Kanda (knowledge).

*The above is a summary of Hindu scriptures. 
Below is an extract from the Buddhist perspective of Spiritual attainment:-*

[/FONT]*     	Wishfulfilling Jewel*


*Introduction*

This sadhana includes two practices revealed by the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. The first is a special Guru yoga in which we visualize our Spiritual Guide as Je Tsongkhapa, who himself is a manifestation of Manjushri. By relying upon this practice, we can purify negativity, accumulate merit, and receive blessings. In this way, we shall naturally accomplish all the realizations of the stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra, and in particular we shall attain a very special Dharma wisdom.
The second practice is a method for relying upon the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden. Through this, we can overcome obstacles to our practice and create favourable conditions so that we can nurture and increase our Dharma realizations. If we rely upon the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden sincerely, our faith in Je Tsongkhapa will naturally increase and we shall easily gain experience of the pure Buddhadharma transmitted directly to Je Tsongkhapa by the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri.
These two practices are the very essence of the New Kadampa Tradition of Mahayana Buddhism. If we practise them regularly and sincerely, we shall reap a rich harvest of pure Dharma realizations, and eventually come to experience the supreme joy of full enlightenment.


*Here's another Buddhist meditation technique.*


Taste these melting moments of immeasurable, mindless meditation. The psychology of meditation may be about nothing - or emptiness - but being ‘_in the zone_’ enhances your creativity.. immeasurably.
*Letting go, let flow..*
Buddhist monks talk of the ordered steps of ‘letting go’ of mental hindrances, inhibitions and traps that exist in our thought patterns – from the past – which prevent us from experiencing *NOW* – the full and passionate perception of ‘what is’ – within and without – seeing your mental potential.. finding your ‘great creative center’ .. letting go, let flow.. 
So sit comfortably with a straight back, relax and..
*Focus*
My favorite monk writes: “…full sustained attention on the breath.. 
then full sustained attention on the beautiful breath.”
After that, meditator, you drop off a mental cliff into ‘emptiness’ ... where your breath will seem to have disappeared and you are now sitting in light ... ...
 .. soft, subtle pulses of cloud light constantly emerge from a pin-point center.. expanding then evaporating and diffusing.. 
All is very still in the body.

*Purification*
De-stressing will happen naturally if you remain silent, calm and thoughtless.. letting go of whatever thoughts arise, just observing and experiencing the continual outflowing from a pin-point center.
Whatever 'happens' - it's OK 
Seeing the cleansing, don’t interfere with its natural ways.
Simply ...
*Flow like water*
You will arrive more whole and integrated, altogether _deeply_ relaxed and more creative. Pleasurable endorphins will flow in you.
Feeling CONNECTED to .. everything

The psychology of meditation reveals _scientifically_ that in these moments you are simultaneously more healthy on all levels and your brain is freed to process information and solve problems more creatively. 
In computer terms you’ve freed up disk space and added 2 gigs of RAM. And that, my friend, is _the psychology of meditation in a nutshell._ There's more to come about the scientific evidence for all of this!

Meditation's beneficial effects on heart rate, blood pressure, the chemistry of stress, brain waves, breathing and creativity are well known and documented.
One of the earliest researchers of the psychology of meditation was Dr Herbert Benson, Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard University, USA, in the 1970s. I highly recommend his popular 1975 book: _The Relaxation Response._ After this book appeared, thousands of Western doctors began to 'prescribe' meditation for stress-related illnesses, in place of medication.. Food for thought ...


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## dalsingh (Jul 27, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I'm not really interested in any opinion of negative or positive.  What interests me from a research perspective is finding there exists a unique organization whose establishment coincides with British Raj plans to divide Indian communal groups that had lived in harmony for generations.  An organization set up whose express objective was to remove all traces of Hinduism from Sikhism, to deny any relationship with Hindu culture, and to expunge from Gurdwaras and Gurbani any definitions or interpretations favoring sanatan identity.
> 
> 
> THAT is what you call massive, deliberate, historical and spiritual distortion.  And it's very existence is propagandistic and suspect.  It's influence on modern Sikhism is absolute with all central Sikh authority and majority of Gurdwaras subscribing to the Singh Sabha world-view which blindly rejects the sanatan heritage of Sikhism.



OK. I get your point but also understand that the movement also did much to put Sikhism in perspective for the 21st century.

It actually saved Sikhism from "sanatanism" which essentially blurs all boundaries to create a melange of beliefs under the guise of some organised belief, which it is not.

For me personally, I believe we owe a great debt to the movement for setting trends against the mythologisation of Sikh heritage. Due to this we now have a good idea of the real *historical* events of Sikh past without the Indian gloss that would have had the Gurus presented as archaic and supernatural characters (possibly with multiple arms) which takes away from their real achievements. Singh Sabha played a part in helping to create a confident research based historiography for Sikhs which santanism is incapable of doing. You know, when you want to destroy a people you can do it by destroying their historical identity. Singh Sabha people, initiated the movement to portray Sikhism in a rational and modern idiom. This is probably one of the reasons why it is slandered in western academic circles because it can actually offer an alternative narrative to the white supremacist one. 

The position today should be to learn from the movements failures and successes and using this set the momentum for Sikhi in the 21st century. This does not mean erasing any reference to things perceived as Hindu. It also does not mean disowning the Singh Sabha movement's paradigm completely. You seem to be struggling with this and have adopted a very  polarised view, which sees in either santanist or Singh Sabhian.  This is a massive over simplification of Sikh heritage.


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## Astroboy (Jul 27, 2008)

Paul Twitchell, writer of fiction, takes his audience to the ocean of love within. 
 The following "Tiger's Fang" excerpt describes the culmination of a series experiences detailed in the previous one hundred pages where Paul has been shown a series of worlds or planes leading up to his current state of light devoid of matter or form: 

"Then I saw it.  You might say it was a mirage, a hallucination, a trick of this world. But then I did see it. The light of God! It was standing above all in the center of the world; the light was fuzzy, shiny and bright, not too bright, just enough. It hung in the center of the landscape within the empty space of this world, a great mass of light, so immense that I cannot describe it, gleaming in the gulf of space. While watching it I began to pray, not in words but in impressions.  The scene passed and I felt myself moving gradually, a motion of going into something, a flowing like water. That is the closest description I can give. In a sense I was  the same fluid as an atom of spirit. Yet it was motionless with an impression of watching, feeling the flow and the deep motion in every fiber of myself.  The impulse went through me that the journey had ended. This was living in God. The music was keened, high and thin, as if coming from within myself. There was no seeing, no hearing, no feeling, just the knowledge that I was part of the absolute - just the intelligence that has power and freedom.  Freedom! Yes, this was it. I never had this before. This was wonderful; the freedom to move as desired anywhere at any time. Then I knew that it wasn't the music that was heard but a suspension above me like an almost palpable thing; it faded, spiraled upward and became a part of the sound. Again it was there. It was the softest sound of breathing.  I waited. "Who is there?" I sent out the vibratory command. The wave hung in the ether. it moved out and came back like a bolt from space but I shook it off and waited.   The light became very strong around me and I knew I was standing in the center of it, suspended in space, an atom within the light atoms; there was no distinguishing them. Nothing! That is all I can say! Nothing!  I was part of that cloud of light, a flaming robe around me in the center of this blinding light. Something entered into my heart, and there was flaming bliss, a glorious light that was the devotion, the adoration, aspiration, reverence, the glory of God, and the divine grace which all writers speak about when becoming one with God. I stood in the center of a mighty, gigantic light, with the current throbbing and pulsing through me.  (The Tiger's Fang by Paul Twitchell, The Illuminated Way Press, pps.109-110) ​


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## Astroboy (Jul 27, 2008)

ਪੰਨਾ 20, ਸਤਰ 8
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
ਮਃ 1   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## spnadmin (Jul 27, 2008)

NamJap ji

I notice in the Shabad,

ਆਗੈ  ਦੇਖਉ  ਡਉ  ਜਲੈ  ਪਾਛੈ  ਹਰਿਓ  ਅੰਗੂਰੁ  ॥
आगै देखउ डउ जलै पाछै हरिओ अंगूरु ॥
Āgai ḏėkẖ*a*u da*o jalai pācẖẖai hari*o angūr.
In front of me, I see the jungle burning; *behind me,* I see green plants sprouting.


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## Astroboy (Jul 27, 2008)

Aad Ji,

What are the values of life? Which things are more important and which are secondary? For example, the oyster shell and the pearl have their own values; and if there were no pearl, the shell would be of little value. Similarly, the importance and value of the human being depends upon the soul, which drives the physical form. When the driver gets out of the physical body, it is then nothing but clay; and though the machinery is quite intact, it lies useless and lifeless because the driving force is no longer there. This is the mystery of life which has to be unraveled; we must come to know the life impulse which is already in the human form and which leaves at the time of death. This is not my speech.:{;o:


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## Sikh80 (Jul 27, 2008)

namjap said:


> ਪੰਨਾ 20, ਸਤਰ 8
> ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
> ਮਃ 1   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]



*Some lines of Geeta and Gurbani*

God is the very Self in us. This Self-the _Atman_-is the Pure Consciousness that pervades the world, the _jagat_[/FONT].[Geeta] 


Kuil@E krmu BieE prgwsw Git Git hir hir fITw ]1] rhwau ] (1212-14, swrMg, mÚ 5)
My karma has been activated, and the Divine Radiance of the Lord, Har, Har, is manifest in each and every heart. ||1||Pause||[/FONT]
pwrbRhm AwjonI sMBau srb Qwn Gt bITw ] (1212-14, swrMg, mÚ 5)
The Supreme Lord God, beyond birth, Self-existent, is seated within every heart everywhere.[/FONT]

srb invwsI sdw Alypw qohI sMig smweI ]1] rhwau ] (684-14, DnwsrI, mÚ 9)
Although he is unattached, he dwells everywhere. He is always with you as your companion. ||1||Pause||[/FONT]

jil Qil mhIAil riv rihAw soie ]3] (728-13, sUhI, mÚ 1)
The Lord is pervading and permeating the water, the land, and the sky. ||3||[/FONT]
jil Qil mhIAil pUir rihE srb nwQ Apwr ] (1227-6, swrMg, mÚ 5)
The Infinite Lord is totally permeating and pervading the water, the land and the sky.

mjyjh tjtjimjdN sjvj[N JjgjdvyjKtjmjUitj[njh​ mjtsTjhinj sjvj[BjUtjhinj nj cjhHN tjeQvjvjisTjtj: ..9>4..​ 



  God is the very Self in us. This Self-the _Atman_-is the Pure Consciousness that pervades the world, the _jagat_[/FONT]. 

Kuil@E krmu BieE prgwsw Git Git hir hir fITw ]1] rhwau ] (1212-14, swrMg, mÚ 5)
My karma has been activated, and the Divine Radiance of the Lord, Har, Har, is manifest in each and every heart. ||1||Pause||[/FONT]
   pwrbRhm AwjonI sMBau srb Qwn Gt bITw ] (1212-14, swrMg, mÚ 5)
The Supreme Lord God, beyond birth, Self-existent, is seated within every heart everywhere.[/FONT]

srb invwsI sdw Alypw qohI sMig smweI ]1] rhwau ] (684-14, DnwsrI, mÚ 9)
Although he is unattached, he dwells everywhere. He is always with you as your companion. ||1||Pause||[/FONT]

jil Qil mhIAil riv rihAw soie ]3] (728-13, sUhI, mÚ 1)
The Lord is pervading and permeating the water, the land, and the sky. ||3||[/FONT]
   jil Qil mhIAil pUir rihE srb nwQ Apwr ] (1227-6, swrMg, mÚ 5)
   The Infinite Lord is totally permeating and pervading the water, the land and the sky.
   qU byAMqu pwrbRhm suAwmI giq qyrI jwie n lwKI ] (1227-12, swrMg, mÚ 5)
   You are Endless, O God, my Supreme Lord and Master; Your state cannot be known.
mjyjh tjtjimjdN sjvj[N JjgjdvyjKtjmjUitj[njh​ mjtsTjhinj sjvj[BjUtjhinj nj cjhHN tjeQvjvjisTjtj: ..9>4..​ 

  "All this world is pervaded by Me in My Unmanifest form (aspect); all beings exist in Me, ." [/FONT]

eyks mih sBu jgqo vrqY ivrlw eyku pCwxY ] (1234-8, swrMg, mÚ 3)
The whole world is contained in the One Lord. How rare are those who understand the One Lord.

   The Self, in its essential Unmanifest nature, must be pervading everything, as the mud pervades all forms and shapes in all mud-pots.[/FONT] [Geeta]


jil Qil mhIAil pUir rihE srb nwQ Apwr ] (1227-6, swrMg, mÚ 5)
The Infinite Lord is totally permeating and pervading the water, the land and the sky.
kysvw bcaunI AeIey meIey eyk AwnjIau ]2] (693-19, DnwsrI, Bgq nwmdyv jI)
The Lord says, "This creation and I are one and the same."||2||
eyks mih sBu jgqo vrqY ivrlw eyku pCwxY ] (1234-8, swrMg, mÚ 3)
The whole world is contained in the One Lord. How rare are those who understand the One Lord.


The Self, in its essential Unmanifest nature, must be pervading everything, as the mud pervades all forms and shapes in all mud-pots. *[Geeta]*[/FONT] 


jil Qil mhIAil pUir rihE srb nwQ Apwr ] (1227-6, swrMg, mÚ 5)
The Infinite Lord is totally permeating and pervading the water, the land and the sky.


kysvw bcaunI AeIey meIey eyk AwnjIau ]2] (693-19, DnwsrI, Bgq nwmdyv jI)
*The Lord says, "This creation and I are one and the same."||2||[/FONT]* 

[Kesava refers to Lord Krishna or Lord addressed with Love, Kindly correct me.]


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## Sikh80 (Jul 27, 2008)

*Pure Consciousness, Divine and Eternal is the Substratum that sustains and illumines the entire panorama of the ever changing plurality.[Geeta][/FONT]* 

pRiqpwlY bwirk kI inAweI jYsy mwq ipqweI ]1] (1213-18, swrMg, mÚ 5)

He cherishes me, like the father and the mother love their child. ||1||
[/FONT] _[I am giving Bani Quotes that I could think of.I shall add some more to bring in the exact wordings.]_

"Though I am unborn[1], of imperishable nature, and though I am the Lord of all beings, yet ruling over My own nature, I am born by My own Maya[/FONT].*"[Geeta]* 

Awpy Awpu aupwie aupMnw ] (1051-6, mwrU, mÚ 3)
He Himself created Himself, and came into being.
AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

_*And *_
[ Burnt be the tongue that states That Lord takes Birth] [Bani] [/FONT]


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## Astroboy (Jul 27, 2008)

Arrh!! Sikh80 Ji,

I see you navigating steadily through a violent storm.
In the Jap Ji Sahib, Guru Nanak says, "When the hands, feet, and body are besmeared, they are washed clean with water; When the clothes get dirty and polluted, they are cleansed with soap; When one's mind gets defiled with sin, it can be purified only by communion with Naam." He also says, "Naam has created Khand and Brahmand." Also, "The whole world was created by Naam, but without the Satsangat there is no connection." Naam is the Power by which the whole of Creation came into being, and that Power's name is Naam. "Those Who became absorbed in Naam returned Home rejoicing; O Nanak, Their faces were radiant with freedom." Through these Radiant Souls, others gain freedom also. So, there is a vast difference between merely repeating the names of God and actually getting connected to the God Power.


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Jul 27, 2008)

This irishman is just curious as to were the "Sikhism is an offshot of Hinduism" leaves this Irish SIKH and all the other converts to Sikhi out there ? We became Sikhs to be Sikhs and NOT a branch of hinduism :inca:


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## spnadmin (Jul 27, 2008)

Joginder ji,

It came to me also as a surprise  !!!!


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 27, 2008)

> joginder singh foley writes: "This irishman is just curious as to were the "Sikhism is an offshot of Hinduism" leaves this Irish Sikh and all the other converts to Sikhi out there ? We became Sikhs to be Sikhs and NOT a branch of hinduism."


If you converted to Sikh religion, you converted expecting to learn in depth the teachings of Sikh Satguru, and not bringing over any preconceived desire of what Sikhism should be.  We are on this forum analyzing what Sikh philosophy is actually teaching, questioning how modern political movements such as Singh Sabha reform may have deliberately altered the message of Sikhism to suit a political agenda of separatism and collusion with the British Raj.  No one's objections, either yours or mine as to personal convenience of opinion will alter this fact.  As individuals we have to explore what this means regarding how modern Sikhism was influenced and developed within a context of hostility to Hinduism.  We became Sikhs of a Guru, that means disciples.  Discipleship means accepting the teachings of Guru.  If Gurbani says the Naam of liberation we jap is of the sargun manifestation of nirgun God, and calls by names Ram, and Har Krishna, does that change anything?  If we accept Sikh Gurmantra for Naam of God is Vaheguru, and we are told in vaaran that this is after the beej (root) sounds of the avataars of Vishnu, then we accept what Guruji has given us.

Who as a disciple, as a shishya would say, "I want Guru's teachings to conform to my cultural expectation?"  If you don't like Hinduism, then address the roots of that prejudice.  Because the vaaran and tuuks of Gurbani aren't going to go away.  Some people will be content never to look under the surface of Sikh practice, and continue to accept the Singh Sabha explanations.  But even then, the sanatan Jathas and viewpoint will always come round and haunt you, that maybe Sikhism has changed from the original definitions.  Maybe Sikhism has a whole other context and meaning which is being lost to the Panth.  

The moment someone analyzes the meaning of Sikh teaching of monotheism, the similarity to Abrahamic religions crumbles.  The very concept of a pantheistic Oneness of a nirgun All-pervading is already, of itself within the realm of Hindu/Vedantic philosophy.  And any rational examination of the true and deep meaning of Ek Omkar, how it relates to the sound-current of the Naad which is the Om, the All-pervading nirguna (Eko Brahman) who subsumes the trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh), yet "kar" creates out of the trimurti, all creation, is confronted with sanatan Dharam.  There is nowhere in Sikhism that it isn't going to be.  Because sanatana Dharma is the fundamental root origin of Sikhism.  Sikhism never changed it.  Sikhism never defined anything as new.  The entire message of liberation fits within Sruti, that which was revealed in the Vedas.  



"Eko Brahman, Dwiteeyo Naasti."
    (There is only one Brahman without a second and the rest is only an expansion of HIM)
    -Shankara​


 aykaa aykankaaru|ikhi daykhaaliaa|
    (By writing 1 (One) in the beginning, it has been shown that Ekankar, God, who subsumes all forms in Him is only one (and not two or three).
    -Vaar 3 Pauri 15 of 20 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas​


yatha hy avahito vahnir
darushv ekah sva-yonishu
naneva bhati visvatma
bhuteshu ca tatha puman
~Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.32

TRANSLATION
The Lord, as Supersoul, pervades all things, just as fire permeates wood, and so He appears to be of many varieties, though He is the absolute one without a second. Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1 Chapter 2 Verse 32​


ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.
~SGGS Ji p. 754​


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ 
jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​


ਨਾਭਿ ਕਮਲ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਪਜੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੜਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਕੰਠਿ ਸਵਾਰਿ ॥ 
naabh kamal thae brehamaa oupajae baedh parrehi mukh kanth savaar ||
From the lotus of Vishnu's navel, Brahma was born; He chanted the Vedas with a melodious voice. 

ਤਾ ਕੋ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਣਾ ਆਵਤ ਜਾਤ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਬਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 
thaa ko anth n jaaee lakhanaa aavath jaath rehai gubaar ||1||
He could not find the Lord's limits, and he remained in the darkness of coming and going. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 489​

ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥ 
suasath aathh baanee baramaao ||
I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator. 

ਸਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਣੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
sath suhaan sadhaa man chaao ||
He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.
~SGGS Ji p. 4​

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ 
so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa ||
He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭਨਾ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲੈ ਜਾਤਾ ॥ 
prabh nikatt vasai sabhanaa ghatt anthar guramukh viralai jaathaa ||
God is close at hand; He dwells deep within the hearts of all. How rare are those who, as Gurmukh, know Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 68​

Sikhism is not even a challenge or redefinition of this pantheistic teaching.  And the concept of Guruji as being the boat, is again from Sruti.  The only difference is Sikhs ignore the Gurbani which even says Guruji Himself is an avtaara within the lineage of Har Krishna.  So if Har Krishna is a Guru to some, and Sikh Guruji is Guru then we can reconcile how Gurbani and vaaran call a Vaishnav a Gurmukh.  But the separatist, elitist interpretation that Sikh Guru is the only Satguru the world ever had or ever will have, and every other religion and sect must now convert to Sikhism to have liberation is just another form of political intolerance and Islam.  It is an elitism worse than Brahminism.  That message is a complete mis-translation of Guruji's message, although it is the Singh Sabha interpretation.  On it's face, it cannot be the correct interpretation of Gurbani.  Gurbani acknowledges the God manifested in physical form in various ages.  If anything, Gurbani proves that Hindu religion is true, not mythology.

And when Kalki avataar comes, we will follow HIm.  Because Gurbani has shown us Guruji Himself will be the Kalki avataar.  Guruji is avataar for certain time period within the Kaliyug.  But at end of Kaliyug, Guruji will return, and this is also supported as a Sikh teaching in Sau Sakhi.  So what we have is this incredibly complex philosophy matching up point by point in various sources, written by different authors in different time periods and having coherence and meaning and corroboration.  And from the Singh Sabha viewpoint?  There isn't even one tuuk interpreted in such a way that it can credibly explain the opposite meaning in another tuuk, so they throw out what doesn't fit by labelling "mythology," "metaphor," or ignore outright and pretend not to notice.



> Sikh80 writes: "Should I be governed by Vaaran!!
> Or
> just leave the things and do Simran......"


I don't find anything in vaaran which contradicts the sanatan viewpoint.  Bhai Gurdas Ji was a Sanskrit scholar.  But you have made an excellent point, because often when I have spoken to certain people about controversial subjects, they ease themselves by accusing that intellectualism is manmukh and I shouldn't waste time better used doing Simran.

We have to acknowledge one of the reasons people don't question, don't research is because there is a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism which stifles dissent however sincere.  On a forum, we can readily see arguments intended to shut down a conversation, but it does speak to incidents in our lives where the sangat cannot handle the questions without feeling personally threatened and make personal attack against the spiritual qualities of the questioner.

So it brings up an excellent point.  Is Sikhism intended to be anti-intellectualism which silences any questions or discourages study?  Or has Sikhism evolved to the point where only certain types of questions and study are discouraged?  You see it goes to the issue of whether Sikhs are supposed to just jap Naam, even if they don't really know what Naam is.



> Sikh80 writes:
> Yes namjap ji,Har Harey! is the Name of Hindu God. It was the compulsion of the time that Guru Sahib had to incorporate these terms. Har Haray! would be taken as Shiva. Har Har Mahadev, is also, generally, meant for addressing Lord Shiva only.  I do not know that you want to convey.


This also is a very material point because people aren't answering WHY the Naams for God are given as names of Hindu devas and avtaaras.  So we have established that Gurbani clarifies we should not worship the physical form of avtaaras, but the One nirguna pervading within.  This doesn't explain why Gurbani also praises the das avtaara and unmistakably calls them God.

So Gurbani alone is showing that the Singh Sabha definitions of what Sikh's believe God is, contradicts Gurbani.  So if we are unclear what is Naam, and why is sarguna of God called Raam Chandra and Hari Krishna, and why this somehow means "we should blindly believe Sikhism is a kind of monotheism like Christianity," that "it has no relationship to Hinduism at all, because Sikhism is a different religion,"...is just too much to swallow.


If the Vaishnava bhakti movement teaches that japping the Naams of God as these avtaaras is the boat of mukti and being a brahminical scholar is NOT of itself a path to mukti, why when Guruji says the same thing, do we stretch our minds to imagine Guruji is somehow speaking AGAINST Hindu religion?  Vaishnava Vedanta taught the same thing even before Guruji wrote and compiled Gurbani.  How can we deny the historical references that every form of Guruji came from Hindu families and married within the same caste?  Why in Bachitra Natak, does Guru Gobind Singh Ji claim lineal descent from Lava and Guru Nanak Dev Ji descent from Kusha, both sons of Rama Chandra?  How can we ignore the bhagat bani shares nothing of Islamic philosophy, and those bhagats were either Vaishnavas or Sufi's influenced by Vaishnavist teaching?  Vaishnavism, referring to that school of sanatana Dharma which elevates the Vishnu avataaras as the sargun manifestation of the One Supreme nirguna.

We've already clarified the use of term Hindu in Gurbani relates to brahminical ritualistic worship, and that Gurbani itself elevates the Vaishnav to a Gurmukh.  So if modernly, we lump Vaishnav together with brahminical Hindu, we ourselves have distorted the words of Gurbani.  And if we did not do this deliberately, but were taught this, or translations made this acceptable, then we have to turn our eyes to Singh Sabha movement.


ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ । 
kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world. 

ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ । 
leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation). 

ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ । 
mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ । 
indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.
~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

Why is no one able to address what Bhai Gurdas Ji is implying in this vaaran, because it has profound implications as to the definition of sarguna according to Sikh philosophy and has direct bearing on the Naam.  And not only is it some isolated vaaran, but this kind of description also appears in Gurbani as well.


ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥ 
sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8|| 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe. 

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥ 
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1403
​

These teachings go completely against the Singh Sabha world-view which denies possibility of God incarnating in sargun form, per SGPC Rehit Maryada, and leaves everybody scrambling to explain away such pauris and vaaran.  But the sanatan viewpoint has no contradiction at any place, despite numerous pauris and tuuks of Gurbani which say the same things, and moreover, by some incredible feat of statistical probability, these complex ideas even corroborate verses in Upanishads and Bhagavatum.

So either we are left with a logical improbability and more questions then we started with, or the sanatan view is the correct interpretation, Gurbani is acknowledging the Vishnu avtaaras as being the sargun manifestation of the All-Pervading, and the Naam we jap is also related to the Vaishnav mantras.  And such would also explain this vaaran:


ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.  

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari. 

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.   

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ । 
kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥ 
jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

So logically, when people tell us to silence our doubts and go jap Naam Gurmantra, it only reinforces the logical explanation, Sikhism is a form of Vaishnavism, meaning Sikh monotheism is based on Vishnu avataars.  

So the pretended isolationism, separate nationhood and rejection of everything Hindu becomes silly.  I mean, at least Buddhists created a new name for their avataars, calling them "buddhas."  Sikhism doesn't even do this, yet expects everyone to believe Sikhism isn't even "derivative" from Hinduism, but some entirely new thing.  It's unprecedented intellectual deceit.  No one can credibly believe it.


Yes, Gurbani says clearly to jap and sing kirtan of praise of the Naam is boat of mukti.  Yes, Gurbani says to memorize and recite and read all the scriptures will get you nowhere.  So we see Gurbani is saying don't mix up the message for the method.  


ਨਾਨਾ ਖਿਆਨ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਧਿ ਚਉਤੀਸ ਅਖਰ ਮਾਂਹੀ ॥ 
naanaa khiaan puraan baedh bidhh chouthees akhar maanhee ||
The various Shaastras, Puranaas, and the Vedas of Brahma, are made up of thirty-four letters.

ਬਿਆਸ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਹਿਓ ਪਰਮਾਰਥੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੨॥ 
biaas bichaar kehiou paramaarathh raam naam sar naahee ||2||
After deep contemplation, Vyaas spoke of the supreme objective; there is nothing equal to the Lord's Name. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 658​

Nowhere does Gurbani say Hindu scriptures are worthless to a Sikh, as does Singh Sabha reform.  And such a viewpoint would contradict the known history that Guruji had Sanskrit scholars and pandits teaching his own household and future forms of Guru, as well as translating these scriptures into Punjabi for His Sikhs.  If they are worthless, why go to such efforts?  I am of the conclusion that anti-intellecualism within Sikhism is a by-product of Singh Sabha reform institutions desiring Sikhs NOT to question and uncover these political deceits.  Because it is acknowledged that mukti is dependant on bhakti and Guru's grace, not intellectualism.  Yet, Guruji gave Gurmukhi to the people.  Why?  Because he wanted His Sikhs to become literate and learned.  Without understanding the Sanskrit terms used in Gurbani, how could anyone ever understand the concept of Turiya as necessary for mukti?  It must be given through grace of Satguru, but without even knowing such concept is in Gurbani, how many Sikhs would discover to find?  Vedas take you only so far, and Guruji and Naam have to take you all the way.  But without standing on the platform of reasonable understanding of what Naam even is, people will begin to interpret Gurbani as mythologies and rejection and denial of these very concepts because they are rooted in Hindu philosophy and miss the boat completely.


ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ 
chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar ||
The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms. 

ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan ||
They describe and explain the three states of mind, 

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ 
thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1||
but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 154​



> It is thus determinable here, the Guru's attitude towards the Smrti texts as indirectly divine teachings where Dharma is rooted. Sikh texts too gave instructions to the Sikhs to observe the sacred texts of Hindus as their own. Bhai Kesar Singh Chibbar's Bamsavali Nama Dasam Patsahiam Ka [14.88-90] says:
> _“This way the Muslims killed lacs of Sikhs, looted the Sikhs and defiled them from Dharam. Say Sikhs! What good deeds have the Muslims earned? Even if (after) seeing and hearing this, no Sikh understands, may Dharamraj fear from this kind of indiscrimination. Each person's deeds will go with them. Our Dharam and their honesty will show beauty. We Sikhs (must) study Gurbani, the Ved-Shastras and the Purans, and those Muslims (are to) perform circumcision, (Ramadan) fasts and study the Qu'ran. Everyone shall reap the fruits of their actions. Those who do bad will lose and those who do good will win."_
> 
> In the Sau Sakhi text, the Sikh is instructed to, "Take upon (himself) the Ved, Sastra and the Guru's word." Page 1243 of the Adi Granth insists that, "The Veda describes the good (punu) and sinful (papu) deeds, the cause of heaven and hell." The question of identity arises with the Gurus. Had the Gurus rejected their Hinduness if at all they did set up a distinct religious system? Allegories offer an answer to this:
> ...


So there is an existing historical source which shows Sikh Guruji did not die to protect Tilak mark of Hindus, but to defend the Dharam of His own tilak mark, which explains the appearance of tilak mark on Guru in Gurbani.


ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ 
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 923​

Or that Gurbani also describes the Gurmukh as wearing tilak mark.


ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਗਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
gur oupadhaes saadhh kee sangath bhagath bhagath thaa ko naam pariou ||1|| rehaao ||
Whoever follows the Guru's Teachings and joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is called the most devoted of the devotees. ||1||Pause|| 

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥ 
sankh chakr maalaa thilak biraajith dhaekh prathaap jam ddariou ||
He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.  

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਭਏ ਰਾਮ ਬਲ ਗਰਜਿਤ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਸੰਤਾਪ ਹਿਰਿਓ ॥੨॥ 
nirabho bheae raam bal garajith janam maran santhaap hiriou ||2||
He becomes fearless, and the power of the Lord thunders through him; the pains of birth and death are taken away. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1105​


ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.
~Shri Dasam Granth p. 131​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## lalihayer (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't have time to read this whole thread now, but I will try to say something I came across while running through long posts.
*sikh80 ji,*
Ahmadiya jamat of muslims firmly believe Guru Nanak was muslim and hence all sikhs are muslims. They even come up with proofs to convince the listeners. 
What they forget is Guru Nanak himself gave gurgaddi to Bhai Lehna infront of all the followers. 
Similarly there are some shias, who are convinced that Guru Nanak was a muslim and amrit ceremony is borrowed from one sect of shias. They will too come up with all kind of historical proofs.
Hindus started same effort through Arya Samaj. But Dayanand made a mistake and badmouthed Satguru Nanak in Arya Samaj book. But don't worry. RSS is here and doing their best to prove that sikhs are sect of hindus.
Beauty of Guru Granth is that by including bani from hindu and muslims, fifth master showed that God can be reached even while living in different sharias (religious rules). Guru Sahib never said Rama and other hindu lesser gods never existed, but as a sikh we don't need to worship them. But due to presence of hindu (vaishnav and others) and muslim terms in gurbani, lot of sikhs can get confused and reach at conclusion that sikhism is offshoot of hinduism or islam.
I came acroos a flyer from South African Hindu priest, who was trying to prove that kaba was in reality vishnu temple. He was also claiming that kaba contains a writing on wall praising one of ancient hindu king (Vikramditya). They have similaraties like fasting, pilgrimage, stone worshipping(in mecca only etc. Hence islam is offshoot of hinduism. 
You don't have to be rocket scientist to know hindus and sikhs are different. Goto any sikh household and then goto any hindu household. Clearly hindus pray to lesser gods and sikhs bow to shabad guru. Sikh gurudwara has Guru Granth and everybody bow to shabad guru. Hindu temple has Ram, Vishnu, Shivling etc and pujaris worship them.
Allah is also praised in gurbani and as per latest development in Malaysia, Allah name is reserved for muslim god only. So if Guru Granth contains praise of Allah, sikhism becomes offshoot of islam?
Followers of Sacha Sauda Sirsa also try to prove that their alleged rapist guru is praised in Gurbani (sant sajan bhaye s{censored} puray gur te jani). Hence Sacha Sauda is real sikhism and ram rahim is next guru in lineage?
*Harjas ji,*
you went one step ahead and trying to prove like a smart lawyer that sikhs don't believe in one God, but in all the hindu gods. Ten gurus and generations of generations of sikhs passed and everybody was just believing it wrong. You are stating now that sikhism does not believe in 'One God'. *Good*, we have 330000000 more gods to worship. You are posting lot of material from upnishads and vedas, which are few milleniums old and nobody has a clue about amount of interpolations. I dont want to say anything about dasam granth as it is a totally separate subject. 
Harjas ji, you read upnishads, vedas, dasam granth and many more books, but you forgot what Guru Sahib wrote as first word in Guru Granth. *There is only one creator Lord. *


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## lalihayer (Jul 28, 2008)

_And when Kalki avataar comes, we will follow HIm.  Because Gurbani has shown us Guruji Himself will be the Kalki avataar. _
Harjas ji, 
If you have shabad guru, you don't need any fictional character like kalki. Christians wait for jesus, shias for mahdi, hindus for kalki. Harjas ji, *nobody is coming*. Lord is already here in our hearts. Follow Guru Granth with heart. Find Lord with *bhay and bhau* for Lord in your heart, fictional futuristic chacaters like jesus, mahdi or kalki are not going to save anybody just like that.


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## Astroboy (Jul 28, 2008)

*



			Harjas ji,
		
Click to expand...

*


> you went one step ahead and trying to prove like a smart lawyer that.............



Lalihayer Ji,

Refrain from making statements amounting to personal attack on any member. 
Kindly observe Forum Rules.

*1. Respect:* Treat all members with the kind of respect that you expect from them in return for yourself.

*2. Unity in Diversity: * Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.

*3. Blaming:* Avoid blaming others. Seeing someone's fault is easier than your own fault.

*3A. Respond or discuss the issue, but not the member who posted it.*

*4. Negativity:* Members found spreading negativity will be encouraged to leave the network.


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## lalihayer (Jul 28, 2008)

There is another poster 'narkalee'. He should learn from Harjas ji how to *do it*? narkalee just comes and spills all the hate for gurmat.


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## Sikh80 (Jul 28, 2008)

namjap said:


> *
> 
> Lalihayer Ji,
> 
> ...


*

Respected namjap ji,

There is nothing in Lalihayer ji's post that shows any disrespect to anyone. In discussion, we are all lawyers protecting our stand. 

I have been addressed so many times by other members in a manner that should not have been done and I might have also done the same in light and respectful manner. 
But then it all happens. In discussion these things do happen and this one was perfectly normal post. I have almost been  stated as 'Pugh wala Hindu' and have also been advised to remain Hindu or practice the same. ,if I so wish.

There is nothing that should be treated as provoking if I am advised so during the discussion that is sensitive in nature. May be the topic of the thread needs consideration.

 In fact,to me, the posts of lali ji seems be a normal response to a stimuli.

Thanks for your concern though.

Regards!! 


LORD as per commentary on Gita: Definition

     The  Self  being  the same everywhere, the Atman that rules my world is
     the Atman that rules the worlds of all individuals. The entire universe
     is  the sum total of the worlds of experience of each individual,   and
     evidently,the 'ruler' that governs the entire Universe must necessarily
     be the Absolute Self Itself. The term 'the Lord of the worlds' is to be
     rightly  understood  thus.   The  Lord  is  not a "tyrant over life" or
     "a Sultan of the skies", or an "Autocrat who rules over our world". The
     Self  is  the  Lord  of  our  experiences, just as the Sun, in the same
     fashion, is the Lord of our daytime world.

     Lord may be understood as the  "Law" behind the world-of- plurality and
     all the happenings therein.

As per bani also Lord/Creator is a soul or vice versa.
[ I miss the Tuk, but shall locate and post]
  sBu Awqm rwmu pswirAw gur buiD bIcwrI ]9] (589-18, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
 1.The Lord, the Supreme Soul, is pervading everywhere; reflect upon the wisdom of the Guru's Teachings. ||9||[/FONT]


   nwnk Awqm rwmu sbwieAw gur siqgur AlKu lKwieAw ]15]5]22] (1043-15, mwrU, mÚ 1)
 2.O Nanak, the Lord, the Supreme Soul, is in all. The Guru, the True Guru, has inspired me to see the unseen Lord. ||15||5||22||[/FONT]
 
ਆਤਮ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਹੈ  ਆਤਮ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਵੀਚਾਰਾ  ਹੇ  ॥੭॥ 
आतम रामु रामु है आतम हरि पाईऐ सबदि वीचारा हे ॥७॥ 
Āṯam rām rām hai āṯam har pā*ī*ai sabaḏ vīcẖārā hė. ||7|| 
The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; contemplating the Shabad, the Lord is found. ||7||


May be there are other tuks as well.I shall be posting them here as well.

I have given this as it has clarified few things to me. May be it is helpful to  other members also.  I find no better definition Of God than this one.At least some clarification.

 Regards again!
Dear namjap ji
{ So far as I am concerned the discussion is not much meaningful as the queries are not responded to by learned members and further I would not like to make out the things based on Vaaran only.It is my stand.I do post only if prompted .I shall ,from now on, not post suo moto in this thread..]

 *


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## Astroboy (Jul 28, 2008)

It would be better to re-phrase your comments and continue your discussions.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 28, 2008)

> Hindus started same effort through Arya Samaj. But Dayanand made a mistake and badmouthed Satguru Nanak in Arya Samaj book. But don't worry. RSS is here and doing their best to prove that sikhs are sect of hindus.


To the best of my knowledge, neither I myself, nor Sikh80 Ji is a member of RSS.  And as many times as I publically bashed RSS over the Gujarat riots and praised independant Khalistan, I hardly doubt they would accept me.  No doubt they probably think I am a spy from you guys trying to infiltrate them. :wink:  As far as I can see Vijaydeep Singh isn't even a part of this discussion, and he is the only RSS forum member I know.  And I am certain we disagree on many points presented.  Think for a moment how propagandistic it is, what a knee-jerk reaction it is, to always label as Indian government agent, RSS agent.  Not only propagandistic, it's childish.  It doesn't intelligently address any of the inconsistencies, issues or concerns in any credible or historical way, just lays blanket fear of ostracism, in form of a label, to segregate a writer with a certain viewpoint as wholly negative in the eyes of others.

By the way, it was the same people involved with Singh Sabha who had asked Arya Samaj to come to Punjab, not the British, in an effort to unite Hindus in a movement against the British occupation.  So they supported Arya Samaj because they were against idols.  But Arya Samaji's turned on them, perhaps with British influence in form of spies fomenting conflicts, so the desired unification between non-idol worshipping Hindus and Tat Khalsa Sikhs never took place.




> Guru Sahib never said Rama and other hindu lesser gods never existed, but as a Sikh we don't need to worship them. But due to presence of hindu (vaishnav and others) and muslim terms in gurbani, lot of sikhs can get confused and reach at conclusion that Sikhism is offshoot of hinduism or islam.


Use of Muslim words is not the same as use of Muslim concepts.  Nowhere in Gurbani is there adoption of Islamic religious world-view or spiritual concepts.  However, the same cannot be said of Vaishnav concepts.  I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why the Naam we jap is after names of Vishnu avataars.  Because this is the very definition of spiritual practice leading to mukti according to Vaishnavism.  Note, I did not say same use of the word, I said same exact identical complex philisophical concept.

Explain this please, as an accidental oversight.

And explain please, exactly which independant concepts distinguish Sikh religion from Vaishnavism.  Because it isn't an issue of finding Sanskrit words and jumping to a conclusion.  It is a study in which you cannot even distinguish one set of teachings as different from another.  And it is on this basis that I have to conclude, Sikhism is just a sect within a larger Vaishnav framework, and to smaller degree Shaivite Nath framework.  It has no independant philosophy.  And by framework I mean complex spiritual philosophy, not merely adoption of terms.




> I came acroos a flyer from South African Hindu priest, who was trying to prove that kaba was in reality vishnu temple. He was also claiming that kaba contains a writing on wall praising one of ancient hindu king (Vikramditya). They have similaraties like fasting, pilgrimage, stone worshipping(in mecca only etc. Hence islam is offshoot of hinduism.


I would have to research that.  It doesn't sound far-fetched.  There are pyramids in South America.  And there are Hindu-like teachings among the native Americans.  But I realize you included this example as something ludicrous being compared to Hindu religion.  Yet the Vedantic concepts and teachings found in Gurbani are not far-fetched or ludicrous at all.  Not even your example about the kaaba being a Shivalingum is so far-fetched.  The entire history of Islam was the destruction of temples of other religions.



> You don't have to be rocket scientist to know hindus and sikhs are different. Goto any Sikh household and then goto any hindu household. Clearly hindus pray to lesser gods and sikhs bow to shabad guru. Sikh gurudwara has Guru Granth and everybody bow to shabad guru. Hindu temple has Ram, Vishnu, Shivling etc and pujaris worship them.


Well lets see, Hindu's bow to Gurus too.  In fact the entire concept of Guru-shishya originated with Hindu religion.  The Vedas predicted Guru Nanak and 10 forms which would end in a silent Guru, taken to mean Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.  Now, if this was even predicted in the Vedas, why would it be a comparative difference?

Arya Samaji's don't have idols.  Are they not Hindus?  

Gurbani praises the One All-pervading God as Ram and Shiva, and after names of Vishnu avataars.

Vaishnavs don't accept prayers to demi-gods as a way to obtain mukti, so they only pray to Maha-Vishnu (the All-pervading) and the Vishnu avataars.  Does this mean they are not Hindu since other Hindus pray and do pujas to demi-gods?

We know after Singh Sabha took political control of Sikhism, developments such as Khalsa Schools of the Diwan Society and Gurdwara Reform movement made deliberate changes into the practices of Sikhs.  We also know they removed idols from Gurdwaras, including Harmandir Sahib.  So historically, prior to Singh Sabha changes, we have to admit idols and pictures of devtas and avtaaras, pujas and arti were in fact an established part of Sikh practice.  Now it becomes interpretive if we accept these practices were the original intent of Sikh Satguru's (One Jyot in many forms), or whether Singh Sabha was correct.  But apart from this, the simple fact that Hindu families married into Sikh families is because they were recognized as Hindus.  It would not be tolerated in Hindu society to marry your child into a different religion.  Non-Hindu's can't even go into certain Hindu temples.  It would have been scandalous.

So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that modern Sikh leadership has fundamentally altered former association with Hindu practices in order to exaggerate the identity differences during the time of Singh Sabha reform and continuing to the present day.   So what kind of credible argument or proof could this be?



> Allah is also praised in gurbani and as per latest development in Malaysia, Allah name is reserved for muslim god only. So if Guru Granth contains praise of Allah, Sikhism becomes offshoot of islam?


Vaishnava sects began accepting Muslims as converts before Guru Nanak was born.  Because there is an element within Vaishnav philosophy that is Dvaitist, certain schools of Vaishnavism incorporated Allah as a name for God before Guru Nanak was born.  Does this mean that Vaishnava Vedanta converted to Islam?  Or rather, this simply shows there was a movement involved within Vaishnavism trying to establish harmony between Hindus who were being slaughtered, and spiritual Muslims who were opposed to social injustices.  The overlap of these traditions has come to us historically as Sufism.  Sufi schools are on both ends of the spectrum with some being almost entirely Islamic, and others being outcast from the Islamic community for having pagan beliefs.  And we even have a group like Kabir-panthis who consider themselves Vaishnavists.



> Harjas ji, you read upnishads, vedas, dasam granth and many more books, but you forgot what Guru Sahib wrote as first word in Guru Granth. There is only one creator Lord.


Let's examine it correctly, since it doesn't say: "One Creator God."

"Ek Omkar."

Ek=One
Om = trimurti
kar = creator

You've left out the trimurti part.  That's rather critical to establishment of a strict monotheism.  Here let me help with the definition:

ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.
~SGGS Ji p. 754​

"But what is praised is the Highest Brahman, and in it there is the triad. The Highest Brahman is the safe support, it is imperishable. The Brahma-students, when they have known what is within this (world), are devoted and merged in the Brahman, free from birth." ~Shwetasvatara Upanishad​
The three gunas are associated with the trimurti devas.  And all materiality, including our bodies was made our of three gunas and the trimurti, according to Gurbani.


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਆ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
thrai gun keeaa pasaaraa ||
He formed the expanse of the entire universe from the three gunas, the three qualities.
~SGGS Ji p. 1003​

The praise of the one All-pervading nirgun God comes from Vedas and Upanishads and Puranas.  It isn't a philosophy unique to Guruji.  Guruji is simply acknowledging it as Primal Truth.  In fact the complexity of the teachings of nirguna and sarguna and three gunas and Maya and mukti also belong to Vedas and Upanishads and Puranas.  So the fact that Nanakian spiritual philosophy is about these exact same teachings has nothing to do with confusion about words.  This is beyond statistical probability of accident. It is deliberate, coherent doctrine.  And it is Vedantic.  Sikh spiritual philosophy is Vedantic.


Moreover, Gurbani acknowledges the nirguna gave Brahma, an aspect of the Trimurti, power of creation of the universe.  And in true Vaishnav philosophy, Gurbani supports that Vishnu created Brahma.  So the correct translation of the first words of Gurbani:

Ek Omkar.

Doesn't mean One Creator God, per Singh Sabha definitions.  It means One Eko Brahman all-pervading and subsuming within itself the creation of the trimurti (Vishnu, Mahesh, Brahma), and from the trimurti creating the known universe.  And within these few words is implicit that the everything created, including the trimurti, is made from the three gunas, rajo, tamo, sato, and the principle of Maya which gives rise to duality.  So the very aspect of creation is separation from the One nirgun All-Pervading Parabrahm, bondage to the created order, and implication of need for mukti to return to the source which is Oneness.

And entire spiritual philosophy is contained within these few words, all of them in Gurbani, and all of them in Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas.

And NOWHERE, not in Vedanta nor in Gurbani do you find a monotheistic Abrahamic God as defined by Singh Sabha.



ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ 
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥ 
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.
~SGGS Ji p. 21​Unmistakable pantheistic Oneness which pervades even the demi-gods.




> You are stating now that Sikhism does not believ in 'One God'. Good, we have 330000000 more gods to worship.


I am not saying.  Gurbani is saying 330 million are part of the One nirguna.  And true to Vaishnav tradition, Gurbani doesn't say worship the demi-gods, those only go to deva-lokas, which are impermanent and do not know the limits of the nirguna.  But Gurbani does praise the One All-pervading nirguna with Naams of the sargun Vishnu avtaars, and even praises the sargun Vishnu avataars directly, even saying Guruji Himself is an avataar in this lineage.


ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਸਿਰਿ ਛਤ੍ਰ ॥ 
kee kott dhaev dhaanav eindhr sir shhathr ||
Many millions are the demi-gods, demons and Indras, under their regal canopies.

ਸਗਲ ਸਮਗ੍ਰੀ ਅਪਨੈ ਸੂਤਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ 
sagal samagree apanai sooth dhhaarai ||
He has strung the entire creation upon His thread.
~SGGS Ji p. 276​


ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਹੋਏ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ 
kee kott hoeae avathaar ||
Many millions are the divine incarnations.

ਕਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ 
kee jugath keeno bisathhaar ||
In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself. 

ਕਈ ਬਾਰ ਪਸਰਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰ ॥ 
kee baar pasariou paasaar ||
So many times, He has expanded His expansion.

ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕੁ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥ 
sadhaa sadhaa eik eaekankaar ||
Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ॥ 
kee kott keenae bahu bhaath ||
Many millions are created in various forms. 

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਤਿ ॥ 
prabh thae hoeae prabh maahi samaath ||
From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again.

ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
thaa kaa anth n jaanai koe ||
His limits are not known to anyone.
~SGGS Ji p. 276​


ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ 
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ 
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master. 

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ 
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ 
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.  

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ 
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.  

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ 
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.  

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. 

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.  

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.  

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5 

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ 
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor. 

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent. 

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ 
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.  

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| 

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading. 

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| 

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes. 

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| 

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 28, 2008)

Thank you Namjap ji for being a good moderator, but for the record, while I can see resistence to the points I'm raising, I did not find anything in Lalihayer Ji's post which was offensive to me personally.  In fact, he opened the door to a really good discussion.



> And when Kalki avataar comes, we will follow HIm. Because Gurbani has shown us Guruji Himself will be the Kalki avataar.
> Harjas ji,
> If you have shabad guru, you don't need any fictional character like kalki. Christians wait for jesus, shias for mahdi, hindus for kalki. Harjas ji, nobody is coming. Lord is already here in our hearts. Follow Guru Granth with heart. Find Lord with bhay and bhau for Lord in your heart, fictional futuristic chacaters like jesus, mahdi or kalki are not going to save anybody just like that.


So if Kalki avataar is mentioned in Gurbani, and he is fictional, and Ram Chandra and Har Krishan avataars are mentioned in Gurbani, are they fictional also?  And if they are fictional, why do Sikhs jap their Naams as boat of mukti?  Why does Gurbani say the One All-pervading nirguna manifested in the sansaara through them?

Also, if avataaras are fictional and Gurbani says that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is an avataara, does that make Sikh Satguru Ji fictional as well by this logic?

And the answer is...NO!  They are not fictional, though perhaps certain elements about them have been fictionalized in history, or symbolized to teach something meaningful.

Ram Chandra is real.  Har Krishna is real.  Guruji is real.  And Kalki avataar is real.  Otherwise, why do we even believe in Gurbani, let alone bow down to it?

As you say the One Lord is already in our hearts.  But we don't realize Him in the sense of being God-realized, or having obtained the fourth state of Turiya consciousness.  We have not had ascending of kundalini shakti to our sahasrara chakra to open the dasm duar and give us darshan of the God.  And because we have not attained this liberation, simply to call your name as Sikh-disciple of Satguru doesn't mean you also aren't in darkness of Maya and duality.  It is because the sansaara is in darkness of Maya and duality and in bondage to panj bhootas and defilements of mind that the nirguna in form of Guru, through age to age descends to be a Jyot that shines in darkness, to set eternal Dharma on it's seat again, and to be a boat of mukti, a salvation to liberate our atma with the One who is pervading within, Paramatma.  Or do we just decide for ourselves which parts of Gurbani are true and which parts are pure fiction?

Otherwise, by this logic, why do we even need a Guru?  We should be able to just save ourselves since we have God within.  Shabad Guru has the Shabad-Jyot, but so did the other avataaras, and so will Kalki avataara.


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰਾ ॥ 
hukam oupaaeae dhas aouthaaraa ||
By His Hukam, He created His ten incarnations, 

ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਅਗਣਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ 
dhaev dhaanav aganath apaaraa ||
and the uncounted and infinite gods and devils.

ਮਾਨੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੈਝੈ ਸਾਚਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੩॥ 
maanai hukam s dharageh paijhai saach milaae samaaeidhaa ||13||
Whoever obeys the Hukam of His Command, is robed with honor in the Court of the Lord; united with the Truth, He merges in the Lord. ||13||
~SGGS Ji p. 1037​

ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥ 
kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness. 

ਸਤਹੁ ਖੇਤੁ ਜਮਾਇਓ ਸਤਹੁ ਛਾਵਾਣੁ ॥ 
sathahu khaeth jamaaeiou sathahu shhaavaan ||
He farms the field of Truth, and spreads out the canopy of Truth.  

ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥ 
nith rasoee thaereeai ghio maidhaa khaan ||
Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat. 

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ 
chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||
You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥ 
aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||
You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||
You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.

ਝਖੜਿ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਡੋਲਈ ਪਰਬਤੁ ਮੇਰਾਣੁ ॥ 
jhakharr vaao n ddolee parabath maeraan ||
You are not pushed or shaken by the storm and the wind; you are like the Sumayr Mountain. 

ਜਾਣੈ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਜਾਣੀ ਹੂ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
jaanai birathhaa jeea kee jaanee hoo jaan ||
You know the inner state of the soul; You are the Knower of knowers.  

ਕਿਆ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਚੇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਜਾਂ ਤੂ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
kiaa saalaahee sachae paathisaah jaan thoo sugharr sujaan ||
How can I praise You, O True Supreme King, when You are so wise and all-knowing?

ਦਾਨੁ ਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਸੋ ਸਤੇ ਦਾਣੁ ॥ 
dhaan j sathigur bhaavasee so sathae dhaan ||
Those blessings granted by the Pleasure of the True Guru - please bless Satta with those gifts.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੰਦਾ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਉਮਤਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੁ ॥ 
naanak handhaa shhathra sir oumath hairaan ||
Seeing Nanak's canopy waving over Your head, everyone was astonished. 

ਸੋ ਟਿਕਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਹਣਾ ਸੋਈ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥ 
so ttikaa so baihanaa soee dheebaan ||
The same mark on the forehead, the same throne, and the same Royal Court.

ਪਿਯੂ ਦਾਦੇ ਜੇਵਿਹਾ ਪੋਤ੍ਰਾ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੬॥ 
piyoo dhaadhae jaevihaa pothraa paravaan ||6||
Just like the father and grandfather, the son is approved. ||6|| 

ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿਆ ਤਿਨੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
dhhann dhhann raamadhaas gur jin siriaa thinai savaariaa ||
Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You.

ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਾਮਾਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
pooree hoee karaamaath aap sirajanehaarai dhhaariaa ||
Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne.

ਸਿਖੀ ਅਤੈ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
sikhee athai sangathee paarabreham kar namasakaariaa ||
The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You.
~SGGS Ji p. 968​

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥ 
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## Astroboy (Jul 28, 2008)

My apologies to Lalihayer Ji for reacting too strictly. :yes: Good conversation. Chalte Raho Bhai.
Harjas Ji,  don't you think that certain articles by Hindu sects have misrepresented words like Kalki, etc ? 

Here's an extract from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Kalki_Bhagavan/id/1542

Kalki and the Golden Age Movement​  �
  �
  Sri Kalki, or Bhagwan, as many of his disciples call him, is known as the �Mukti Avatar�, a Divine Incarnation whose specialization is to impart enlightenment. His presence and his mission reflect for me the highest gifts Mother India has to offer humanity, and having met him and experienced who he is, I feel that I can now rest in complete trust that humanity is going to make it, no matter how fragmented, meaningless and chaotic our existence has been.
  �
  Grace and I�met with him three times over the few weeks that we were at his ashram near Chennai. Our first meeting was a group �darshan� (or interview) for the teachers, including myself, at the��Oneness Festival� that was being held there. During the darshan he spoke of the dilemma most people experience if they are serious about enlightenment. No matter�how hard we may try to get there, we still have concepts and expectations about what enlightenment must look like. There is always an effort to get from the state of non-enlightenment to a state of enlightenment, which creates and furthers the very duality we are trying to dissolve. Even when we let go of the effort and become empty we are still conditioned by the deep subconscious programming within our minds that keeps us separate from external reality, separate from directly experiencing the world without the running commentary of our thoughts. 
  �
  I had been seeking enlightenment for many years. I had had a few enlightenment experiences but it wasn�t a permanent state. After decades of unsuccessful effort I noticed myself becoming weary of the search, especially since I did not want to create more duality between where I was and where I wanted to be. I started telling myself that maybe I was already enlightened, just didn�t know it yet. I created a wonderful enlightened persona around myself, asking myself how I would live and act if I were enlightened, and trying to incorporate that �as if enlightened� state into my daily walk. It made me a better person, but it was still an act, just another layer of spiritual ego to get attached to. I suffered less, but I wasn�t enlightened, and in the denial of that truth, suffered more. Now here was someone saying that it did not require centuries of effort, and that anyone could indeed get enlightened, just like Buddha or Jesus. I was intrigued.
  �
  Not only is enlightenment easily attainable, but it is our natural state, continued Kalki. We were originally created with a different program implanted in our DNA, and every child was born�with the ability to�directly experience�the world as a unified field of consciousness.�We have mutated from that due to various distortions in our collective conditioning, yet the original programming still remains within our DNA.�Just like a computer cannot change its own programming from within a program, we cannot�change our mental programming from within our mind. It must either come through divine grace, which is difficult for many people because of our restrictive concepts about God, or it can be transferred by someone who knows how.
  �
  Sri Kalki acknowledges himself as an avatar, but doesn't require that people believe in him as such or follow his teachings. In fact, he emphasizes, all teachings are useless if you are seeking enlightenment because they only create another concept for the mind to hang on to.� Even the non-dualistic teachings of someone like Ramana Maharshi can become a barrier if it creates a craving for enlightenment distanced from the present moment. Teachings can follow enlightenment, but no teachings can produce it. No amount of effort can get you there.
  �
  Instead, enlightenment is a neurobiological process, Kalki insists, and he sees his own role as being merely a �technician�. He even encourages people to design their own enlightenment! Through a certain kind of�"divine [COLOR=orange ! important][COLOR=orange ! important]surgery[/color][/color]",�and with adequate preparation, the neurobiology and the DNA of a�seeker can be changed�so as to naturally become enlightened, and then�all teachings and guidance naturally flow from within. A divine energy is transferred into the neo-cortex of the brain, which reorganizes the entire framework of consciousness. It has its own intelligence, and interfaces with the�deepest longings and blueprint of each individual soul to create a�new�command center that bypasses the mind. 
  �
  There are as many kinds of enlightenment as there are people, he affirms, yet what is common to all is the awakening of the true self within and the permanent dissolution of conflict and suffering. The entire framework of past conditioning disappears, as do expectations of the future. Since suffering is caused by addictions, attachments, cravings and aversions based on past conditioning, when this conditioning disappears, suffering disappears as well. This is often accompanied by states of cosmic consciousness, journeys to celestial realms, profound perceptual changes, sharpening of the senses, various �siddhis� (spiritual gifts), and profound ecstasy. The physical body becomes illumined with an inner light, and the sense of a separate continuous identity dissolves.�The questioner vanishes along with the questions. The mind becomes�a hollow reed through which all creation can flow. Thoughts can still flow through the mind, but do not emanate from the mind.
  �
  I felt a thrill of recognition in my soul as I listened to his words. Grace and I decided to do a preparatory "mukti" (liberation) program led by one of his disciples�designed to bring the various "koshas" (bodies) into alignment. Towards the end of this all the participants were called into his presence for a darshan.� There were about 40 of us in the room, along with several enlightened "dasajis", or disciples. He announced that we were to�be given�the "diksha" (initiation) of enlightenment, and that the�dasajis would be assisting in transmitting the divine energy.�Kalki explained that if he tried to transmit�the energy directly it could likely blow some fuses, but that he would be working through the dasajis to perform the divine surgery in a controlled fashion. Some of us would get enlightened right away, he informed us, while others would take longer, depending on individual factors. All of us in the room would become enlightened within four weeks, he promised. He further said that it would be a functional enlightenment (�sahaj samadhi�). When he first began to get people enlightened they would sometimes go into ecstatic but immobile states for months, and he has learned to give a more integrated enlightenment now, since we are needed out in the world.
  �
  The normal procedure at Kalki's ashram involves a much longer period of preparation before the enlightenment diksha could be given, so all of us in the group were stunned and elated to hear this. This was going to be an experimental group, he went on to say. The majority in the group were Westerners, and Kalki said this would be the first time that the enlightenment diksha was being given enmasse to a group of Westerners. The time for mass enlightenment had begun, and as these enlightened people returned to their home countries to hold the energies in their respective lands, the transformation of the human race would begin. Once 64,000 people had become enlightened throughout the world, he said, the morphogenetic fields would ignite, and everyone who had become enlightened would then themselves be able to transmit this state with a touch, with a glance, with a thought or a prayer. From then, it would be a very short time before all of humanity would revert to their original program of oneness. This�could all happen well before 2012, says Kalki.
  �
  We were asked to sit with our eyes closed as the dasajis moved among us in a state of ecstatic cosmic union, placing their hands on our heads, and allowing themselves to become vehicles for Kalki. It was a different experience for everybody. In a group sharing the following day, it turned out that although only a couple of people had actually become enlightened in that moment, most people had begun having enlightenment experiences, which Kalki said would stabilize into a steady state of enlightenment in the days or weeks to come. Grace passed through periods of intense physical pressure and disorientation for a couple of days, and then on the third day felt the kundalini energy moving unobstructed through every �nadi� (subtle nerve channels) clearing out all the koshas all the way into the "anandamayakosha", or "bliss body". 
  �
  As she experienced her bliss body, it propelled her into the classic�enlightened state, which she has continued to maintain since. It has been fascinating for me to watch and participate in her process, as her entire nervous gets reprogrammed to respond directly to a completely different command center, the Soul.�It is like getting unplugged from the "Matrix" (referring to the well-known movie of that name), and plugging directly into the Infinite. She reports that the moment of enlightenment was like simultaneously giving birth and�being born. She found herself literally experiencing the world through the perceptions and senses of a newborn, while at the same time witnessing the entire process from a place of mature wonder. In the days following she found herself slowly �growing up�, first a two year old, then four, then eight, sometimes fluctuating between various ages up to adulthood, eventually feeling like all of them and none of them simultaneously, young and tender, wise and knowing, ageless and vast. It is an ongoing journey� into universal consciousness.
  �
  At the time of this writing, two weeks after the diksha, my own enlightenment process is just beginning to happen. I am noticing currents of energy coursing through my body similar to what I had experienced in 1985, which are beginning to open up the deeper kundalini pathways. We had another darshan with Kalki just before we left, and he warned me that it would lead to a total reorganization of my consciousness. Some people are born with free will to shape their lives any way they wish, while others have a chosen destiny that cannot be changed. He told me that I came with a destiny to help the world, that my enlightenment would prepare me for this, and that he would work with me. I am adding this chapter to create a new edition of this book after the rest had already been published because I think Kalki�s work is the culmination of everything else I have said in this book, and I want to send this off to press while my mind can still function in the old way. What happens afterwards, I have no idea. Perhaps there will be another book that emerges later, perhaps much later. I will keep readers updated through my website.
  ��
  Sri Kalki and his wife, Amma, have about 15 million followers in several countries, and their �Golden Age Foundation� is possibly the fastest growing movement in the world today. Several hundred people have become fully enlightened in the past few years, with the numbers growing rapidly. Miracle stories of all kinds are being reported every day, not very different from those experienced around Jesus. Kalki says there will be significant earth changes happening throughout the world before the end of the decade, which can be averted if there are enough enlightened people living in those areas and interfacing with the land. He invites us to walk through the Doorway to Eternity, and then back again to help bring all of Earth and humanity through. If something about this possibility resonates within your soul and you feel the urge to explore it further, please contact me, or check out www.livinginjoy.com, www.worldawakening.org, or www.trueawakening.org.� Introductory programs are offered worldwide, but the final �jumpstart� at this point is only being offered by Kalki and his direct disciples in India. Kalki guarantees that anyone who comes with serious intent will become enlightened in three to four weeks. It is a big claim, but I have seen enough to attest to it.
  �
  �A major aspect of this work right now is the construction of a �Shakti Sthal�, or Temple of Light, built according to the principles of "vaastu" (vedic sacred geometry). It is expected to be completed early in 2004, and will hold up to 8000 people meditating together at any one time to build a continuous wave of unity consciousness in the world. Once this project begins it will greatly accelerate and focus the work, and people will be able to get enlightened much faster. A lot of positive change will begin to happen in the world from then onwards, promises Kalki.
  �
  I had a dream recently, which reveals to me what this unity consciousness might look like.�I am�at a birthday party.� It is�my sister's birthday and she is six years old today, and in the dream I am also my sister and experiencing the magic and wonder of everything around me directly through her eyes.� I feel how much she adores me, and I am so touched I want to cry.� I live through an entire day through her eyes, and then I find myself in the body of my grandmother when she was still alive.� Again, I see all the familiar relationships from a totally different perspective.� I touch her [COLOR=orange ! important][COLOR=orange ! important]pain[/color][/color], I touch her love, and I realize I am seeing her like I've never seen her before.�
  �
  �The dream continues all night long.� I shape shift and feel myself becoming all the people that are important to me, family, friends, loved ones, even people I don�t know in other periods of history and other lands. Soon I learn that I can be in any one incarnation and shape shift in and out of various people at will.� I become aware of the unchanging wheel of life that holds still as the players change.�I see that everyone wants the same things, and that the only common connection is love. �I see myself as no longer identified with myself as a [COLOR=orange ! important][COLOR=orange ! important]personality[/color][/color], but as the One Presence, incarnate in any or all of these personalities simultaneously, and extending throughout the planet.�
  �
  I awoke from the dream feeling great waves of love. It felt like a prelude to the enlightened state. Love is as simple as seeing through another's eyes, and knowing that we are the same. There is only one Mind, and beyond that, only one Self. If each human glimpsed a tiny fraction of this through direct experience, could we ever go to war or hurt each other or any aspect of�the One Presence ever again?
  �
  This is the love I have felt from Sri Kalki. I feel so grateful to know that he is here on Earth. I feel he is a genuine avatar, perhaps one of the greatest avatars of all time.� In his ability to bestow the gift of direct experience to anyone seeking to know themselves, his advent represents a grand unification of all religions and spiritual traditions. As the beginning of the Golden Age draws near, his�mission is to help enlighten not just a few but the entire world. 
  �
  �Humanity is entering the most crucial phase of its existence,� says Kalki. �The coming decade shall witness the most unprecedented and undreamt of changes in the course of its long evolution. There is nothing much humanity can do about it other than to understand the changes that are overpowering it.� Towards the end, humanity will enter a new age � the Golden Age!�
  �


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## dalbirk (Jul 28, 2008)

namjap said:


> My apologies to Lalihayer Ji for reacting too strictly. :yes: Good conversation. Chalte Raho Bhai.
> Harjas Ji, don't you think that certain articles by Hindu sects have misrepresented words like Kalki, etc ?
> 
> Here's an extract from Kiara Windrider on Enlightenment, Kalki and the Golden Age Movement - I
> ...


 
Dear Brothers & Sisters ,
I wish to state that all thes so called Godmen / Women , Miraculous people r just mercenaries which play on the lack of real knowledge of GURBANI wherever they r whether in India or West . The people being confused & insecure themselves play in the hands of these people . These r no mre than pure COMMERCIAL ORGANISATIONS with codes of business like PURE marketing companies . The agents r used for recruiting members , paid commissions , in cash or in kind like jobs who spread the word of MAHAPURUSH JI . Infact these people if seen from nearby distance r so lowly creatures & so corrupt as to put even most hardened criminals & even Indian political leaders to shame . Here is a copy of my earlier post , which holds true for this one also .It is as follows :


ECONOMICS OF THE DERAS :
I wish to clear some plain facts about the mushrooming growth of Deras especially in Punjab . The mother of this is elecoral politics . It is a known fact that in Indian elections votes r sold at a price to political parties , however the exact modus operandi is unclear to many . This is how it works : 
There r following political elections held in all states but rates mentioned r specific to Punjab only ; 1. Panchayat Elections , Rate per vote is 5000- 7000 Indian rupees for election of Panches , a furthur expense of 1000/ per vote is incurred to buy Panches for election of the Sarpanch . 2 Block Samiti Elections : Rate per vote is 1000-2000 , liquor bottles , Poppy husk & few hunderes rupees do the trick 3 . Muncipal Committee Elections : Rate is again 1000 - 2000 per vote , same means r used for diostribution 4 . Muncipal Corporation Elections ( For Big Cities ) : Rate is 2000-2500 per vote for electing councillors , a furthur expense of 500 is made for electing Mayor . 5 . Lok Sabha Elections : Rate is 1000-2000 per vote . 6 . Assembly Elections : This is the mother of all elections . Rate is 6000- 8000 per vote , morover the winner takes the all important Chief Minister Ship chair . So in total a vote costs ( Earns ) Rs 16,000 - 25000 ( 400 USD to 625 USD ) in all 5 years . All the Deras , all they have to do is to invite some political leader to some big SATSANG & that political leader pays his RESPECTS to Dera Chief in front of DEVOTEES The leader gets the unusual big crowd , the public gets to see the amount of CLOUT OF BABAJI & to top it all the BABAJI gets his DUE SHARE proportionately . Each vote multiplied by 16,000 to 25,000 Rupees . This BOOTY is in the form of CASH & KIND like land allotment , posting of police officers teachers , health workers , transfers of various officials to PLUM places . Some months back Radha Soami Satsang Beas came to light when they GRABBED a prime real eastate land in Mohali worth about 2800 - 3,000 Crores ( 700 Million USD ) in Mohali for peanuts . The ruckus in press & media forced them to forego 50 % of that land . Still they got to keep land woth 350 Million US Dollars . The Sacha Sauda DeraChief had his Brother In Law ( Harminder Singh Jassi ) a Congress Ticket from Bhatinda superseding Surinder Singla & a promise of withdrawl of CBI enquiry against him various cases of rape , Murdur etc . In 2002 Sonia Gandhi visited RSS Beas just before elections at Beas headquarter & spent a full day there to inagaurate an EYE DONATION CAMP alonwith Natwar Singh , Amarinder Singh , Murli Deora among others . On 30th March , 2008 , LK Advani visited Maharaj Gurinder Singh , Dera head at RSS , Beas . According to known eyewitnesses , the Baba saluted Advani while greeting him . The Akais r also playing this game of FAITH & POLITICS albiet differently . The so called Panthic Party SAD ( Badal ) has a SECULAR CONSTITUTION under which it fights SGPC elections . It treats Sikh votes under the influence of Gurudwaras as a free BONUS VOTE , Ghar di murgi dal barabar . But spends the same rate to get votes from Deras as Congress or now new player in the game BJP . As aresult Deras r wooed by all parties & Deras r rolling in money but traditional Sikh Voter is left high & dry . Gurudwaras get nothing in return , SGPC budget is spent on election rallies & horse trading of SAD ( Badal ) . The preaching of Sikhism is left to Non- Government institutions like Sikh Missionary College , Ludhiana & Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle , Ludhiana . They r not at all helped by Akalis or SGPC financially ., rather hurdles r put in their way . Gurudwaras r controlled by Jats , Dalits r discriminated against in villages . As a result nobody is willing to take the issues of Sikhs , Dera supporters r active in almost every sphere be it Panchayats , Corporations .Some serious introspection is required for revival of Sikhism & slow down this Mushrooming Deras in Punjab "
This is true for all the GODMEN anywhere in India or the world over .

Regards ,
Dalbir Singh


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## lalihayer (Jul 28, 2008)

harjas ji,
Of all the names of God, Aum is the supreme. It is the most comprehensive name of Lord. Other names encompass only some aspects of God. Aum is made up of three letters denoting three aspects of God.
A- denotes power of God to create the universe
U- denotes power of God to preserve the universe
M- denotes power of God to dissolve it.

*If hindus know One Almighty by three different names, then why should we sikhs? Guru Nanak put EK infront of His name, clearing the doubt that there are no three different Gods, but only One.*

Gurbani is written by gurus in simple language (not like vedas, which were reserved for high class only). For an average person like me (who is ignorant of sanskrit) Om means name of God and Ek Om Kar means 'There is only one God'. But everybody has freedom to take one definition of Aum from vast knowledge of hinduism and can try to prove that EkOmKar means 'one trimurti creator'.
Definition you are giving is one of the definitions Aum given by one of many indian schools (hindu, jain, budhhsist etc). If we look in wikepedia for 'Aum', yours definition comes at somewhere below middle of page under heading 'Puranic Hinduism'.

Regarding singh sabha, every religion start as a small group within another religion and ultimately takes form of separate religion. Christianity was jewish cult for few centuries. But due to different theology, parted away. Buddhism was not a different religion initially, but became one. 
Rest later (i'm at work).

Edit: when i said 'RSS is here' , i didn't mean you are an RSS agent. I mean to say that RSS is presently one of the biggest organization that is propagating exactly same view. What i mean to say is even after arya samaj is exposed as anti sikh, *RSS is here* to continue stressing that sikhs are hindus.


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## lalihayer (Jul 28, 2008)

ਆਤਮ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਹੈ  ਆਤਮ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਵੀਚਾਰਾ  ਹੇ  ॥੭॥ 
आतम रामु रामु है आतम हरि पाईऐ सबदि वीचारा हे ॥७॥ 
Āṯam rām rām hai āṯam har pā*ī*ai sabaḏ vīcẖārā hė. ||7|| 
The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; contemplating the Shabad, the Lord is found. ||7||

sikh80 ji,
this shabad says it all. When I post on these boards, a dilemma always takes over my mind. Am I debating to bring forth true meaning of gurbani or I am debating to satisfy my ego ? There is no doubt that sikhism is heavily influenced by hindu theology, but it would be very wrong to say that we are still hindus. If you have read gita, you must read mannu smriti too, you will know that sikhs are not hindus. I understand that lot of people who had read vedas, upnishads and other hindu shashtras say that sikhs are real hindus. That is a good compliment, but still sikhs are not hindus.
I belong to Teh Zira distt Ferozepur in Punjab. Before partition, my native tehsil many families who were muslims, they were used to go to gurudwara instead of mosque. They could not see any difference between two religions. Even some ragis in gurudwaras were muslim. Partition happened and big number of these families change their names to sikh names. There was no other change. Ali Baksh becomes Bakshish singh, Noor Mohamad becomes Harnoor singh. 
Sikhism is walking thin line between indic and semitic religions. To both sides, it appears we are one of them. 
Harjas ji earlier gave example how sikhs used to have all the hindu rituals. Most of earlier sikh days fighting with authorities, running from homes, hiding in jungles. Gurudwaras were in control of hindu mahants. But it had to change and it did.
rest later,
regards,


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## Sikh80 (Jul 28, 2008)

I fully respect your views and regard them as correct. May be the similarities in two religions are so pronounced that one gets the impression that the most of the sikh philosophical part is already contained in the earlier scriptures.

It was just a chance that I read Gita, almost simultaneously, while pursuing Bani and that I noted this and put forward the things. 

As I regard your views I have nothing more to add now as I should spend more time reading Granth sahib for better appreciation of the things. There are few questions in my earlier posts that may kindly be looked into and ,if considered worthy of reply, may be replied to.

Warm Regards.


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## lalihayer (Jul 28, 2008)

_Sikhism is just a sect within a larger Vaishnav framework, and to smaller degree Shaivite Nath framework. It has no independant philosophy. And by framework I mean complex spiritual philosophy, not merely adoption of terms._

Harjas ji,
You are trying to convince my fellow sikh brethern here that sikhism is offshoot of vaishnav. Do you reallly understand that by saying so you are backstabing house of Satgur Nanak? Do you understand you are levelling allegations against Satgur Nanak for stealing vaishnav philosophy and not even mentioning it?
Harjas ji, if you believe for a minute in Satgur Nanak and what he is saying, do you think he would have mentioned it in his mool mantar? Or atleast in Japji? (although you have been trying in vain to prove that aum means trimurti not Lord himself). What stopped Guru Nanak from writing word 'Vishnu' in mool mantar? 
I just have some idea of what vaishnav mat is about. But I have full faith in Satguru Nanak. He never gave preference to vaishnav mat in his teachings.
Sometimes people see what they want to see. You know most of the sikhs here are not familiar with vaisnav teaching, yet you come here with lot of examples from vedas, vaishnav theology and ofcourse gurbani, trying to prove that sikhism is another form of vaishnav mat. 
You realize that hinduism has oral tradition of keeping their texts. How can you say that texts you have been referring not been altered to make more sense in modern times? Hinduism had no answer for Budhhism for centuries. But then with new translations from Shankarcharya, brahmins made Buddhism just another sect of hinduism and distinct features of Buddhism (ahinsa(hence vegetarianism), vipasna, idol worship) were made just some more hindu rituals.
There are many refrences to vaishnav mat in gurbani. But I must post this shabad.
panna 960

 ਸਲੋਕ  ਮਃ  ੫  ॥
 Shalok, Fifth Mehl:

 ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਅੰਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਅੰਨਾ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੀ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
 Blind inwardly, and blind outwardly, he sings falsely, falsely.

 ਦੇਹੀ ਧੋਵੈ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬਣਾਏ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
 He washes his body, and draws ritual marks on it, and totally runs after wealth.

 ਅੰਦਰਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
 But the filth of his egotism is not removed from within, and over and over again, he comes and goes in reincarnation.

 ਨੀਂਦ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਕਾਮਿ ਸੰਤਾਪਿਆ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
 Engulfed in sleep, and tormented by frustrated sexual desire, he chants the Lord's Name with his mouth.

*ਬੈਸਨੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਮ ਹਉ ਜੁਗਤਾ ਤੁਹ ਕੁਟੇ ਕਿਆ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
 He is called a Vaishnav, but he is bound to deeds of egotism; by threshing only husks, what rewards can be obtained?
* 
 ਹੰਸਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਬੈਠਾ ਬਗੁ ਨ ਬਣਈ ਨਿਤ ਬੈਠਾ ਮਛੀ ਨੋ ਤਾਰ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
 Sitting among the swans, the crane does not become one of them; sitting there, he keeps staring at the fish.

 ਜਾ ਹੰਸ ਸਭਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਤਾ ਬਗਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਜੋੜੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
 And when the gathering of swans looks and sees, they realize that they can never form an alliance with the crane.

 ਹੰਸਾ ਹੀਰਾ ਮੋਤੀ ਚੁਗਣਾ ਬਗੁ ਡਡਾ ਭਾਲਣ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
 The swans peck at the diamonds and pearls, while the crane chases after frogs.

 ਉਡਰਿਆ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ਬਗੁਲਾ ਮਤੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੰਞੁ ਲਖਾਵੈ ॥
 The poor crane flies away, so that his secret will not be exposed.

 ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਦੋਸੁ ਦਿਚੈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
 Whatever the Lord attaches one to, to that he is attached. Who is to blame, when the Lord wills it so?

 ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਰਵਰੁ ਰਤਨੀ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
 The True Guru is the lake, overflowing with pearls. One who meets the True Guru obtains them.

 ਸਿਖ ਹੰਸ ਸਰਵਰਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਹੁਕਮਾਵੈ ॥
 The Sikh-swans gather at the lake, according to the Will of the True Guru.

 ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਮਾਣਕ ਸਰਵਰਿ ਭਰਪੂਰੇ ਖਾਇ ਖਰਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
 The lake is filled with the wealth of these jewels and pearls; they are spent and consumed, but they never run out.

 ਸਰਵਰ ਹੰਸੁ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਤੇ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
 The swan never leaves the lake; such is the Pleasure of the Creator's Will.

 ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਹਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
 O servant Nanak, one who has such pre-ordained destiny inscribed upon his forehead - that Sikh comes to the Guru.

 ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਸਭਾ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
 He saves himself, and saves all his generations as well; he emancipates the whole world. ||1||


You are trying to prove sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. Me, an ignorant sikh, is reading literally 'vaishnav' word as mentioned above.
You are trying to prove here with examples taken from vedas and other hindu texts alongwith shabads that sikhism philosophy is borowed from vaishnav mat. Me, here is just believing what fifth master has to say about vaishnav mat. 

*Harjas ji, you understand gurbani is collection of shabads said by different authors with different religious backgrounds at different times in different conditions. Guru sahib were trying to say that Lord can be reached even while living in different sharias (religious rituals) if you have love of Lord. But you have taken these shabads without trying to understand context, put together to reach the conclusion that sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. *

Harjas ji, I have just one question. Do you agree that Fifth Master had better knowledge of gurubani and vaishnav mat than you and me? If yes, what do you think stopped them from beating bushes here and there instead of saying in every shabad that we are vaishnavs, bot gurmukhs? Do you have doubts about Fifth Master's intentions?
If you doubt Fifth Master's intentions, then you are not a sikh, but a vaishnav, trying to impose that sikhs are part of vaishnav mat.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 28, 2008)

> Namjap Ji writes: "Harjas Ji, don't you think that certain articles by Hindu sects have misrepresented words like Kalki, etc ?"
> 
> Here's an extract from Kiara Windrider on Enlightenment, Kalki and the Golden Age Movement - I
> Kalki and the Golden Age Movement


It is entirely irrelevant from a research point of view to analyze how imaginative modern movements may now lay claim to interpreting Kalki avataar.  It simply has no bearing whatsoever on analyzing what mention of Kalki avataar in Gurbani could mean.

Because some modern new age group, or some completely unenlightened people from Hindu religion concoct something fanciful, how does this prove Kalki avtaara is as mythological as _they_ say He is?  See this is a perfect example of what I've been writing.  To prove some political point about Sikh independant identity, people frequently resort to painting all Hindus, all forms of Hinduism, all Hindu practice in the worst possible light.  Just because someone is a Hindu, just because someone is a Sikh, doesn't mean those persons are necessarily enlightened or have any particular wisdom.  And the foolish notions of such people have no relevance at all to historical and scriptural definitions of the teachings of Kalki avataar.

So simply posting commentary by some modern new age Hindu movement to illustrate how mythological Kalki avtaara is does not explain why Gurbani talks about the das avtaara of Vishnu as the sargun manifestation of the One nirgun Parabrahm, nor why Gurbani mentions Guru Nanak as avtaara in this lineage, nor why Gurbani speaks of Kalki avtaara.  If I want to know about Kalki avtaara I will search the original scriptures that predict him.  If I want to waste a lot of time, I will read Newsweek or some New Age defintions.




> Dalbirk writes: "Dear Brothers & Sisters ,
> I wish to state that all thes so called Godmen / Women , Miraculous people r just mercenaries which play on the lack of real knowledge of GURBANI wherever they r whether in India or West . The people being confused & insecure themselves play in the hands of these people . These r no mre than pure COMMERCIAL ORGANISATIONS with codes of business like PURE marketing companies . The agents r used for recruiting members , paid commissions , in cash or in kind like jobs who spread the word of MAHAPURUSH JI . Infact these people if seen from nearby distance r so lowly creatures & so corrupt as to put even most hardened criminals & even Indian political leaders to shame."


As I have said a dozen times now, trying to paint Hindu religion in the worst, most corrupt possible light is the only attitude Sikh's are promoting.  And it's all political.  Let me be frank, Sikhs don't need deras to show corruption.  Gurdwara Committees are doing well enough.  In Kalyug, ALL religion is corrupted.  And I oppose false deras as I oppose false politically and financially motivated Gurdwaras.

But this has nothing to do

with the question

of the origins

of Sikh philosophy

or whether

there was a philosophical,

spiritual, 

and historical relationship

to Vaishnava Vedanta.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 28, 2008)

> Lallihayer writes: "There is another poster 'narkalee'. He should learn from Harjas ji how to do it? narkalee just comes and spills all the hate for gurmat."


Now simply because you are opposed to my views, with what justification do you have to make the slander that I am someone like "Narkalee who spills and spews hate for Gurmat?"

You see, I am reading the Gurbani.  And I am more than shocked at the Vedantic and yogic philosophy I find there.  So shocked I started asking people why it was in there and what it could mean.  If I was truly spilling and spewing hate of Gurmat, why would I bother to read Gurbani intently to search out what Gurmat (from Guru's mouth) really is?  If I had no respect for Gurmat, wouldn't I just blindly accept the political viewpoint of people who define Sikhism as what Hinduism is not.  And then define Hindu religion as something altogether horrible, atrocious, corrupted, obscene, unjust, and spiritually without a boat of mukti.

Do you people honestly believe anyone reading actual Hindu scriptures will believe the negative and extreme exaggerations which pass today for Sikh scholarship about Hinduism?  All one has to do is actually READ and discover that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was right!  Most Hindu's have lost the boat!  But conversely, so have most Sikhs.  Today, the truly spiritual man is rare and hard to find.  

Do you believe for a moment the really spiritual person will define the greatness of his own faith by slinging all the mud and kalunk he can against the others?  That reaction is itself the tipoff that the material being presented has a political agenda, and is not a spiritual understanding at all.

I do happen to know a very holy Singh.  And one day, in the midst of all the infighting and ruin and garbage going on in a particular Jatha which can only be described as cruel and inhumane,  I asked him: "Veer Ji, these people say don't talk to those people, they are under boycott.  But those people are very lonely and have asked me to stay with them.  Yet I hear all these terrible nindya.  Is it true they are fake people, and the ones who are so cruel and vicious are the real Singhs?"

And the old Singh said to me: "Just love everybody.  Just be kind to everybody.  Just respect everybody.  We have no right to hurt anyone or tear someone down in the eyes of the community.  No one is perfect.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Just love them, and maybe they will do better."


I am so sick and tired of hateful, unloving, political and aggressive communities that do nothing but tear each other to pieces.  I've had it.  I can no longer pretend that because these people with name of Singh, who swagger as if they are the only boat of mukti in the Kalyug and consider with arrogance and disdain EVERYBODY else, are the real deal.  I had my wake-up call.  And to be frank, I really do not care one bit what people think or say about me.  I don't care if I'm accused of being anti-Sikh, ignorant, Hindu, and the other assorted colorful Punjabi curse words.

I
do
not care.


But I will be completely honest.  I have no agenda.  When I read Gurbani talking about rising of Kundalini shakti to open dasm duar, and I KNOW Sikhs don't practice it or even know what it's about, I sincerely believe Sikh religion has lost it's OWN boat of mukti.  And I'm trying to retrace the historical steps to see what was lost, what was thrown away, what was misunderstood.

Because modern Sikhism today is a crying shame.  If I hated Sikh religion, I wouldn't even bother.  But I don't hate Sikh religion.  I hate what it's pretending to be.  I hate the cruelty and politics of the pretenders.  I want to know what the truth is.

And the real deal, is Punjabis think they own Sikh religion.  So many have never even read Gurbani, but they think these gang-land Khalistani, swaggering proud punk anti-Hindu attitudes are the true Sikh religion.

Excuse me for finding that rather shallow and searching for a more meaningful interpretation.

Call me RSS Hindutva if you want.  Call me anti-Sikh if you want.  I'm still so greatly relieved not to be a part of the unloving sangat anymore.  So it's no loss to me what you think.

If anyone is interested, I'm studying Gurbani to the best of my ability to learn what I can about how Sikh teaching of mukti has been changed.  If you don't believe that it has changed, why bother to read these posts?  Do you really think some little lady with no sangat, no association, no dera and certainly no money is that big a threat to YOUR identity?  If you do, the problem is not with my objections, but with your insecurity.


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## lalihayer (Jul 29, 2008)

*Now simply because you are opposed to my views, with what justification do you have to make the slander that I am someone like "Narkalee who spills and spews hate for Gurmat?"*
Harjas ji,
you said in your post,"_Sikhism is just a sect within a larger Vaishnav framework, and to smaller degree Shaivite Nath framework. It has no independant philosophy. And by framework I mean complex spiritual philosophy, not merely adoption of terms._"
Wasn't narkalee trying to prove same thing, though with harsher words? I never read vaishnav mat in detail, but i read gurbani. 'Vashnav' is mentioned many times, but just as one of other religions common among people at that time.
 You, here are trying to prove that sikh philosophy is copy of vashnav mat. Question is if sikhism is just a sect within vaishnav framework, why Guru Sahib kept us in dark about it? My faith is with my Satguru. If hymns collected by Fifth master contains refrence from veda, there are also refrences from kateba. Sacha sauda people are trying to prove that their guru is mentioned in gurbani. You are trying to prove that kalki is mentioned in gurbani. Another poster on this site was trying to prove with one tuk that seeing people of other sex is OK (anand karo mil sundar nari). We can't simply change the fact that Sikhism evolved in a majority hindu country. It is natural that most of bhagats would be hindus and being hindi as main language most of names of Lord would be hindu too. 

*You see, I am reading the Gurbani. And I am more than shocked at the Vedantic and yogic philosophy I find there. So shocked I started asking people why it was in there and what it could mean. If I was truly spilling and spewing hate of Gurmat, why would I bother to read Gurbani intently to search out what Gurmat (from Guru's mouth) really is? If I had no respect for Gurmat, wouldn't I just blindly accept the political viewpoint of people who define Sikhism as what Hinduism is not. And then define Hindu religion as something altogether horrible, atrocious, corrupted, obscene, unjust, and spiritually without a boat of mukti.
* 
Hinduism is a beautiful and one of the most tolerant religion. I believe all the religions are true. Creator had made this world and hence all the religions. How can He do anything wrong? But if somebody is saying that my guru stole philosophy from vaishnav mat and never mentioned to his sikhs that we are same as vashnavs, it is not acceptable to me. Me too is His work. My emotions are too His work. I am helpless here. 

*I am so sick and tired of hateful, unloving, political and aggressive communities that do nothing but tear each other to pieces. I've had it. I can no longer pretend that because these people with name of Singh, who swagger as if they are the only boat of mukti in the Kalyug and consider with arrogance and disdain EVERYBODY else, are the real deal. I had my wake-up call. And to be frank, I really do not care one bit what people think or say about me. I don't care if I'm accused of being anti-Sikh, ignorant, Hindu, and the other assorted colorful Punjabi curse words.*
  You are trying to prove that gurmat is nothing but vaishnav mat and expect me to read this blasphemy against my Guru without any comment. You must have read many texts, but I have refrences from shabad guru only to believe. 
Again about boat of mukti, people from every religion can get across with love for Lord and their actions, but please don't expect kalki/jesus/mahdi will take everybody across just because. 

*But I will be completely honest. I have no agenda. When I read Gurbani talking about rising of Kundalini shakti to open dasm duar, and I KNOW Sikhs don't practice it or even know what it's about, I sincerely believe Sikh religion has lost it's OWN boat of mukti. And I'm trying to retrace the historical steps to see what was lost, what was thrown away, what was misunderstood.*
I believe you, harjas ji. But I am saddend that you reached at wrong conclusion. But I am thankful to you, as It has renewd my interest in taking a detailed look at vaishnav philosophy.


*If anyone is interested, I'm studying Gurbani to the best of my ability to learn what I can about how Sikh teaching of mukti has been changed. If you don't believe that it has changed, why bother to read these posts? Do you really think some little lady with no sangat, no association, no dera and certainly no money is that big a threat to YOUR identity? If you do, the problem is not with my objections, but with your insecurity*
Harjas ji, I am not feeling insecure. Just look at the bigger picture here.  We are here on a sikh forum. New and old sikh memebers are browsing here looking for answers. You one of the senior forum poster comes back with announcement that he/she had just found out that sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. Then you post lot of material from vedas and Guru Granth in attempt to prove you point.  You understand well that sikhs are not very familiar with vaishnav philosophy, but we are familiar with sikh philosophy and you will be answered accordingly.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਆਤਮ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ਹੇ ॥੭॥
> आतम रामु रामु है आतम हरि पाईऐ सबदि वीचारा हे ॥७॥
> Āṯam rām rām hai āṯam har pā*ī*ai sabaḏ vīcẖārā hė. ||7||
> The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; contemplating the Shabad, the Lord is found. ||7||
> ...


Veer ji Lalihayer Ji,

Can you explain to me what is shabad?  Do you believe Shabad only means Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and that somehow this tuuk is telling us only by listening to Gurbani (contemplating the Shabad) is the Lord found?  And do you think with that definition, that anyone who is not a Sikh, who does not contemplate the Sikh Guru Sahib cannot find the Lord?  And why would you seem to think that shabad is something only found in Gurbani?  See these are the kind of deliberate distortions and mistranslations arising from the Singh Sabha reform to dissociate ANY meaning in Gurbani with that found in Hindu scriptures.  And then the meaning falls flat and becomes ethnocentric, all to praise a particular community, and nothing to do with praise of the God who pervades in everyone.

Naad/Nada, a Sanskrit term means "sound, vibration."  It has a relationship to the subtle nadis, which are conduits of praan, life-force energy in the human chakra system.  It relates to the AUM, because it is creative principle:



> According to Samkhya, in Mulaprakriti or the potential condition of the Natural Principle, the Gunas are in a state of equality (Samyavastha), that is, they are not affecting one another. But, as Mulaprakriti is essentially movement, it is said that even when in this state of equality the Gunas are yet continually changing into themselves (Sarupaparinama). This inherent subtle movement is the nature of the Guna itself, and exists without effecting any objective result. Owing to the ripening of Adrishta or Karma, creation takes place by the disturbance of this equality of the Gunas (Gunakshobha), which then commence to oscillate and act upon one another. It is this initial creative motion which is known in the Tantra as Cosmic Sound (Parashabda).
> Chapter Nineteen: Creation as Explained in the Non-dualist Tantras


Paranada and Parashabda are the root basis of Vedantic creation and hence transformation.   The shabd emanates in sarguna from the anada, the unheared sound and vibration of the nada.  According to the Shaivite Nath tradition, Kundalini is Parashabad, it is the energy that flows.  If you know anything at all about shaktipat Gur-deekhya, you understand that esoteric yogic philosophy teaches the vibrational presence of the Guru gets transmitted into the energy flow of the shishya, disrupting his old patterns of thinking, bringing karams and defilements to consciousness where they can be purified.  Shabda is like shaktipat energy flow from one consciousness to another.  It's not just reading words.


ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥ 
mueiaa jith ghar jaaeeai thith jeevadhiaa mar maar ||
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥ 
*anehadh sabadh* suhaavanae paaeeai gur veechaar ||2||
The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the Shabad is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2||

ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥ 
*anehadh baanee* paaeeai theh houmai hoe binaas ||
The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated.
SGGS Ji p. 21​

What is the anehad bani?  Because without it, we will not obtain the Lord and liberation.



ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
gur sabadhee man mohiaa kehanaa kashhoo n jaae ||
The mind is fascinated by the Word of the Guru's Shabad, which cannot be described.

ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਚੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਰਸਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥ 
jihavaa rathee sabadh sachai anmrith peevai ras gun gaae ||
The tongue imbued with the True Word of the Shabad drinks in the Amrit with delight, singing His Glorious Praises.
~SGGS Ji p. 36​

What Amrit is Gurbani discussing in this tuuk?

So we see these concepts coming together: Naad, Shabd, Naam, Amrit nectar.  What do they mean, and why are they in Gurbani?  Can you explain veer ji?



ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਬਦੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
anmrith sabadh anmrith har baanee ||
The Shabad is Amrit; the Lord's Bani is Amrit.
~SGGS Ji p. 119​


ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵਰਸੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਏ ॥ 
anmrith varasai sehaj subhaaeae ||
The Ambrosial Nectar rains down, softly and gently.  

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ 
guramukh viralaa koee jan paaeae ||
How rare are those Gurmukhs who find it.
~SGGS Ji p. 119​


ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ 
oulattiou kamal breham beechaar ||
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥ 
anmrith dhhaar gagan dhas dhuaar ||
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.​

Is this still sounding like Shabad is the same as reading Guru's bani?  Or is it becoming clear that some esoteric yogic practice is being described in Gurbani?  And so it was this recognition which came to me as a shock, since I had studied siddha yoga and yoga kriyas in the past, and despite firmly believing in the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha and revering a strict Tat Gurmat Singh like Bhai Sahib Bhai Randir Singh Ji, I could not shake that Gurbani was describing one of the most elusive and advanced yoga kriyas that exist, kechari mudra.  And describing it in a way as to explain the meaning of Shabad, Naam, and mukti.  And this is exactly what kechari mudra is, the yogic path to mukti.



ਭਾਠੀ ਗਗਨੁ ਸਿੰਙਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਚੁੰਙਿਆ ਕਨਕ ਕਲਸ ਇਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||
The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat. 

ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰਸਨ ਚੁਆਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||
Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure essence of all distilled essences. ||2|| 

ਏਕ ਜੁ ਬਾਤ ਅਨੂਪ ਬਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਵਨ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥ 
eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||
Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੩॥ 
theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||
In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him? ||3||

ਐਸੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੋਤਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ 
aisae giaan pragattiaa purakhotham kahu kabeer rang raathaa ||
This spiritual wisdom of God, the Supreme Soul, has illuminated my being. Says Kabeer, I am attuned to His Love.
~SGGS Ji p. 92
​



> “Sound arises in the inner sky of pure consciousness, the heart-space in the head, the sky of the heart. What manifests is Life-Power, the One.” ~Shiva Sutra 37



ਨਿਰਮਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਨਿਤ ਸਾਚੇ ਕੇ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਦੁ ਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥ 
niramal gun gaavai nith saachae kae niramal naadh vajaavaniaa ||2||
Sing the Glorious Praises of the Immaculate True Lord forever, and the Immaculate Sound-current of the Naad shall vibrate within. ||2||

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
niramal anmrith gur thae paaeiaa ||
The Immaculate Ambrosial Nectar is obtained from the Guru.
~SGGS Ji p. 121​



> “Awaken the kundalini-shakti through the breath; for when it is roused, liberation is possible.” ~Shiva Sutra 20



ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜੀਉ ਭਾਗ ਵਡੇਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jap guramukh naam jeeo bhaag vaddaerae jeeo ||
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, O very fortunate ones. 

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜੀਉ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
har har naam jeeo praan har maerae jeeo ||
The Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is my soul and my breath of life.
~SGGS Ji p. 175​

No matter who objects or turns green or rolls around or calls names, NO ONE is able to remove these tuuks from Gurbani.  No one can deny in any believable way that Guruji did not understand the most advanced shakti yogic practices in the world.  This is the tradition of how to arouse Mata Shakti devi.  And suddenly it starts to make sense, those traditions still whirling about the reputation of the Khalsa, of use of sarbloh steel because of it's shakti, or worshipping devi in the shakti.  Because only in this way would the Khalsa no longer simply be brave soldiers, or committed religious believers.  They would be shaktipat Masters, the most formidable siddhi yogis to confront a battlefield.  The spirit of devi would literally be their weapon.  And again, it fits within the schema of Dasm Granth bani and the praise of bhaugati Chandi, the Khalsa battle standards bearing devi's likeness, the painting of Guru Gobind Singh Ji prayer to sargun form of the nirgun Akal in form of devi.  Because devi in the Shaivite Panth is literally the Power of God.



ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
gur kai bachan keeno raaj jog ||
Through the Guru's Word, I practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਲੋਗੁ ॥੫॥ 
gur kai sang thariaa sabh log ||5||
In the Company of the Guru, all the people of the world are saved. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 239​


ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਏ ॥ 
sukhamanaa eirraa pingulaa boojhai jaa aapae alakh lakhaaeae ||
He understands the Sushmana, Ida and Pingala, when the unseen Lord reveals Himself. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਹੁ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੬੦॥ 
naanak thihu thae oopar saachaa sathigur sabadh samaaeae ||60||
O Nanak, the True Lord is above these three energy channels. Through the Word, the Shabad of the True Guru, one merges with Him. ||60||

ਮਨ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਵਨੁ ਕਥੀਅਲੇ ਪਵਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਖਾਈ ॥ 
man kaa jeeo pavan kathheealae pavan kehaa ras khaaee ||
"The air is said to be the soul of the mind. But what does the air feed on?

ਗਿਆਨ ਕੀ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਕਵਨ ਅਉਧੂ ਸਿਧ ਕੀ ਕਵਨ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ 
giaan kee mudhraa kavan aoudhhoo sidhh kee kavan kamaaee ||
What is the way of the spiritual teacher, and the reclusive hermit? What is the occupation of the Siddha?""
~SGGS Ji p. 944​




> _42. When the air has ceased to move in the right and the left nostrils, and has begun to flow in the middle path, then Khechari Mudra can be accomplished there. There is no doubt of this.
> 
> 43. If the Prana can be drawn into the Sunya (Susumna), which is between the Ida and the Pingala, and made motionless there, then the Khechari Mudra can truly become steady there.
> 
> ...





ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਅਉਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਈ ॥ 
eirraa pingulaa aour sukhamanaa theen basehi eik thaaee ||
The energy channels of the Ida, Pingala and Shushmanaa: these three dwell in one place. 

ਬੇਣੀ ਸੰਗਮੁ ਤਹ ਪਿਰਾਗੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਥਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
baenee sangam theh piraag man majan karae thithhaaee ||1||
This is the true place of confluence of the three sacred rivers: this is where my mind takes its cleansing bath. ||1||

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਤਹਾ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ॥ 
santhahu thehaa niranjan raam hai ||
O Saints, the Immaculate Lord dwells there;

ਗੁਰ ਗਮਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
gur gam cheenai biralaa koe ||
how rare are those who go to the Guru, and understand this.

ਤਹਾਂ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
thehaan niranjan rameeaa hoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The all-pervading immaculate Lord is there. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਵ ਸਥਾਨੈ ਕਿਆ ਨੀਸਾਣੀ ॥ 
dhaev sathhaanai kiaa neesaanee ||
What is the insignia of the Divine Lord's dwelling? 

ਤਹ ਬਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
theh baajae sabadh anaahadh baanee ||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates there.

ਤਹ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਪਉਣੁ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ 
theh chandh n sooraj poun n paanee ||
There is no moon or sun, no air or water there.

ਸਾਖੀ ਜਾਗੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੨॥ 
saakhee jaagee guramukh jaanee ||2||
The Gurmukh becomes aware, and knows the Teachings. ||2||

ਉਪਜੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਛੀਜੈ ॥ 
oupajai giaan dhuramath shheejai ||
Spiritual wisdom wells up, and evil-mindedness departs;

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸਿ ਗਗਨੰਤਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ 
anmrith ras gagananthar bheejai ||
the nucleus of the mind sky is drenched with Ambrosial Nectar.

ਏਸੁ ਕਲਾ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ 
eaes kalaa jo jaanai bhaeo ||
One who knows the secret of this device,

ਭੇਟੈ ਤਾਸੁ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ॥੩॥ 
bhaettai thaas param guradhaeo ||3||
meets the Supreme Divine Guru. ||3||

ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਘਾਟੀ ॥ 
dhasam dhuaaraa agam apaaraa param purakh kee ghaattee ||
The Tenth Gate is the home of the inaccessible, infinite Supreme Lord.

ਊਪਰਿ ਹਾਟੁ ਹਾਟ ਪਰਿ ਆਲਾ ਆਲੇ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਥਾਤੀ ॥੪॥ 
oopar haatt haatt par aalaa aalae bheethar thhaathee ||4||
Above the store is a niche, and within this niche is the commodity. ||4|| 

ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ 
jaagath rehai s kabahu n sovai ||
One who remains awake, never sleeps. 

ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥ 
theen thilok samaadhh palovai ||
The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਲੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹੈ ॥ 
beej manthra lai hiradhai rehai ||
He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart.

ਮਨੂਆ ਉਲਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਹਿ ਗਹੈ ॥੫॥ 
manooaa oulatt sunn mehi gehai ||5||
Turning his mind away from the world, he focuses on the cosmic void of the absolute Lord. ||5||

ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਅਲੀਆ ਭਾਖੈ ॥ 
jaagath rehai n aleeaa bhaakhai ||
He remains awake, and he does not lie.

ਪਾਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਬਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥ 
paacho eindhree bas kar raakhai ||
He keeps the five sensory organs under his control. 

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਖੀ ਰਾਖੈ ਚੀਤਿ ॥ 
gur kee saakhee raakhai cheeth ||
He cherishes in his consciousness the Guru's Teachings.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥੬॥ 
man than arapai kirasan pareeth ||6||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Lord's Love. ||6||

ਕਰ ਪਲਵ ਸਾਖਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ 
kar palav saakhaa beechaarae ||
He considers his hands to be the leaves and branches of the tree. 

ਅਪਨਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ 
apanaa janam n jooai haarae ||
He does not lose his life in the gamble.

ਅਸੁਰ ਨਦੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੈ ਮੂਲੁ ॥ 
asur nadhee kaa bandhhai mool ||
He plugs up the source of the river of evil tendencies. 

ਪਛਿਮ ਫੇਰਿ ਚੜਾਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ॥ 
pashhim faer charraavai soor ||
Turning away from the west, he makes the sun rise in the east.

ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰੈ ਸੁ ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ॥ 
ajar jarai s nijhar jharai ||
He bears the unbearable, and the drops trickle down within; 

ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਸਿਉ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਕਰੈ ॥੭॥ 
jagannaathh sio gosatt karai ||7||
then, he speaks with the Lord of the world. ||7||

ਚਉਮੁਖ ਦੀਵਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ 
choumukh dheevaa joth dhuaar ||
The four-sided lamp illuminates the Tenth Gate.

ਪਲੂ ਅਨਤ ਮੂਲੁ ਬਿਚਕਾਰਿ ॥ 
paloo anath mool bichakaar ||
The Primal Lord is at the center of the countless leaves.

ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਲੇ ਆਪੇ ਰਹੈ ॥ 
sarab kalaa lae aapae rehai ||
He Himself abides there with all His powers.

ਮਨੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਰਤਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਹੈ ॥੮॥ 
man maanak rathanaa mehi guhai ||8||
He weaves the jewels into the pearl of the mind. ||8|| 

ਮਸਤਕਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਦੁਆਲੈ ਮਣੀ ॥ 
masathak padham dhuaalai manee ||
The lotus is at the forehead, and the jewels surround it.

ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
maahi niranjan thribhavan dhhanee ||
Within it is the Immaculate Lord, the Master of the three worlds.

ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲ ਬਾਜੇ ॥ 
*panch sabadh* niramaaeil baajae ||
The Panch Shabad, the five primal sounds, resound and vibrate their in their purity.

ਢੁਲਕੇ ਚਵਰ ਸੰਖ ਘਨ ਗਾਜੇ ॥ 
dtulakae chavar sankh ghan gaajae ||
The chauris - the fly brushes wave, and the conch shells blare like thunder.

ਦਲਿ ਮਲਿ ਦੈਤਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
dhal mal dhaithahu guramukh giaan ||
The Gurmukh tramples the demons underfoot with his spiritual wisdom.
~SGGS Ji p. 974​

Panch Shabds


> Now we come to the nādas or sounds. The Shiva Sanhitā instructs the yogī to close the ears with the thumbs, the eyes with the index fingers, the nostrils with the middle fingers and the lips with the remaining four fingers. After some practice, he will begin to hear the mystic sounds. *The first will be like the hum of a bee*, *then a flute and then a vīnā.* With more practice there comes the *sound of bells*, and *afterwards thunder.* The mind of the yogī becomes absorbed in these sounds, and he forgets the external things which could distract him. 20 These sounds are usually called anāhata, or belonging to the heart center.
> 
> According to the Hatha Yoga Pradīpikā, when the ears, eyes, nose and mouth are closed, a clear sound is heard—*first like the tinkling of ornaments*, and later like *kettle-drums*; later still there is the *sound of the flute and the vīnā*. In the middle stage there may be the* sound of bells and horns*. The yogī must give his attention to the subtler sounds. The Nādabindu Upanishad also gives much the same order of sounds as the Hatha Yoga Pradīpikā, mentioning in stage one the* sound of the sea, clouds, waterfalls and kettledrums*, in the second stage that of *drums, bells and horns,* and thirdly, that of* tinkling bells, flutes, vīnās and bees*. The Hansa Upanishad gives the order more in agreement with the Shiva Sanhitā. First come *soft chattering sounds*, then that of the *bell, conch, lute, cymbals, flute, drum, double drum, and, lastly, thunder.* The nāda laya or "absorption through sound" is regarded as a great aid to concentration.




Amrita-Soma-Nectar:


> The word bindu means 'drop or point'. It is more correctly termed bindu visarga, which literally means 'falling of the drop'. Bindu is represented by the crescent moon and a white drop, which is the nectar dripping down to vishuddhi chakra. It is the ultimate source out of which all things manifest and into which all things return.
> 
> "(Bindu) is the cause of the creation of word and meaning, now entering and now separating from one another."
> 
> ...



Amrit comes from Sanskrit word: "Mrita" which literally means without death, immortality.  And hence it has anciently been associated with yogic practices such as kundalini shakti awakening by placing surti on the praan, and japping Gurmantra to purify and piece the chakras and raise the energy to the level of 6th Agni (vishuddhi) chakra where sits the pineal and pituitary glands.  By placing the tongue in back of the throat in kechari mudra seal, the tongue and breath becomes a cup and one is able to drink the amrita which flows down from this Agni chakra.  The soma-nectar-amrit opens the mind to Turiya consciousness so the tenth gate, or Sahasrara chakra (thousand petalled lotus) opens and one receives darshan of the Lord and becomes jivan-mukti.


ਉਲਟਤ ਪਵਨ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਖਟੁ ਭੇਦੇ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਅਨਰਾਗੀ ॥ 
oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||
I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.

ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਜੀਵੈ ਤਾਸੁ ਖੋਜੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥੧॥ 
aavai n jaae marai n jeevai thaas khoj bairaagee ||1||
Search for the One who does not come or go, who does not die and is not born, O renunciate. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 333​


Again, these teachings are all from yoga sutras.  And they are in Gurbani.  Can anyone care to explain:

1.  Why if these are Gurmat teachings, Sikhs today know nothing about them?
2. If Guruji accepted teachings of yoga sutras as method of liberation, how does Guruji's message of Sikhism significantly differ from sanatana Dharam?


ਨਾਨਕ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਮਹਿ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥੫॥ 
naanak chouthhae padh mehi so jan gath paaeae ||5||
- O Nanak, in the fourth state, those humble servants attain salvation. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 284​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## dalsingh (Jul 29, 2008)

If Sikhi is the same as Vaishnav philosophy, how comes the Vaisnavs were never inspired to organised themselves to resist Moghul oppression?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> There is no doubt that Sikhism is heavily influenced by hindu theology, but it would be very wrong to say that we are still hindus. If you have read gita, you must read mannu smriti too, you will know that sikhs are not hindus. I understand that lot of people who had read vedas, upnishads and other hindu shashtras say that sikhs are real hindus. That is a good compliment, but still sikhs are not hindus.


Just saying does not make it so.  The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  What I mean by that is, the proof is in the teachings themselves, not in any comparison to the worst social excesses of Manu Smritis, which many sects of Hinduism have a problem with.  It is abundantly clear from both Vaishnava reform movements,  and the subsequent Sufi Panthis and Nanak Panthis that historically a revolution of sorts took place within the same time period AGAINST the brahmin elitism of Manu Smritis.  So simply to keep comparing Hinduism in general, with its many divergent sects with the worst excesses of the brahmin elite, DESPITE the revolutionary reform movements which sought to address those social injustices, itself does an injustice to the authentic definition of Hindu religion.

The fact that Vaishnava Ram Naami's were also known as the untouchable religion because they accepted the equality of a brahmin as well as an untouchable, and admitted and recognized untouchable sants like Bhagat Namdev and Kabir Ji is historical proof that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Panth was more akin to these movements than distinguished from Hinduism because of Manu Smritis.  Unless you insist in arguing that Vaishnava Vedanta is NOT a sect of Hinduism, and the only truth about Hindu religion is corruption, caste injustice, brahmin elitism and hypocrisy.  That Singh Sabha world-view of Hinduism is shamefully innacurate, and Sikhs who insist on using it to distinguish Sikhi only put themselves down.  Let's all bow respectfully to the Truth, which is God's authentic nature.




> I belong to Teh Zira distt Ferozepur in Punjab. Before partition, my native tehsil many families who were muslims, they were used to go to gurudwara instead of mosque. They could not see any difference between two religions. Even some ragis in gurudwaras were muslim. Partition happened and big number of these families change their names to Sikh names. There was no other change. Ali Baksh becomes Bakshish singh, Noor Mohamad becomes Harnoor singh.  Sikhism is walking thin line between indic and semitic religions. To both sides, it appears we are one of them.


Surely you must know the history of the mass conversions among Muslims by the Singh Sabha reform movement in a deliberate effort to estrange Sikh identity from Hinduism?



> His endeavor with preaching Sikhism started when he met Bhai Mool Singh Gurmuula in 1904 A.D. In those days Sikh preachers would visit village to village and give lectures about Sikhism. Situation of Sikhism was bad, Gurdwaras were under control of Mahants, Sikhs were fastly assimiliating into Hinduism. At one such lecture he listened to Bhai Mool Singh when he was speaking at village virn . Bhai Mool Singh's lecutre gave him such enthusiasm to serve Sikhism that anytime a need of preacher arose in any village he along with his party would reach there. He was a fierce worker (Sewadar) of Singh Sabha movement. At one such incident at village Kotli Dasu Singh when a muslim who wanted to convert to Sikhism and about 40-50 muslims attacked the ongoing ceremony. Sardar Kartar Singh Jhabbar and his party defended this ceromony with their staffs.
> 
> Singh Sabha movement was actively converting Low caste Hindus and Muslims to Sikhism at this time all over Punjab. Normally in such a ceremony after a lecture of Sikh leaders and Gurbani, a Jathedar would call to a congregation that if anybody wants to become a Amritdhari Sikh he/she should come forward. Kartar Singh Jhabbar visited numerous villages all over Punjab and give his lecture in many congregation. Then Jhabbar started making members of Singh Sabha. In two months he made 500 members, during his lectures at Gurdwara Baoli Sahib everyday about five six thousands Sikhs would gather. Later he shifted his headquarters to Lahore. Chief Khalsa Diwan at this time was creating Khalsa Colleges schools as well as involved with all the academic activites associated with Sikhism.
> Biography of Jathedar Kartar Singh Jhabbar


Now, let's read between the lines a little bit, and understand that a mass influx of population from low caste Hindus, disgruntled with brahmin elitism as well as British occupation, and Muslims, equally disgruntled with both were recruited en masse for a political objective in the 1900's and deliberately made amritdhari and members of Singh Sabha.  Now, apart from any sentimental conversion feelings, this is an obvious political thrust to disenfranchise and alienate the traditional Hindu population from belonging and brotherhood with the Sikh community which they had enjoyed under the Sikhism of the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

So, because there was a mass influx of communities who had NOT been Sikh before, with a decidedly propagandictic and political objective to gain the numbers to disenfranchise and alienate the previous Hindu community, no one can credibly use the argument that "Muslims joined Sikh religion because of their common religious philosophy."

Let's be transparently honest now, apart from Singh Sabha distortions to force Sikhsim, against all Gurbani, to fit into an Abrahamic definition of monotheism, in order to deliberately downplay the pantheistic Vedanta in the original Gurbani definitions, and to create the propaganda that Sikhism was as much a part of Islam as it was a part of Hinduism is patently false.

What true Islamic, who believes in One monotheistic God, is going to accept a pantheistic All-pervading definition?  What true Islamic, who believes in the right of Muslims to put to death those who serve fake gods, will tolerate a pantheistic One nirguna who is called by names of Hindu deities, who is described in terms of Hinduism as Shiva and Shakti, Brama, Vishnu and Mahesh, Parvati and Lakshmi?

And the honest answer is.... not one.  So let's stop playing word games.  Islam is categorically opposed to pagan and false religiohns which it defines as anything other than Allah, Mohammed the Prophet, and the holy Koran.  And the hundreds of years of butchery, rape, torture and cruelty which make up Moghul rule in India is heavy testament to the unrivaled intolerance of Islamic religion.  The fact is majority of Muslim converts to Sikh religion were from original Hindu families forced to convert under threat of torture and death during Moghal occupation.  So what exactly is a Muslim in Punjab historically who was indigenous to Punjab?  He was a Hindu.  Do you deny?

Besides blindly making claims and assertions, I am still waiting for someone to show me directly, where in Gurbani does Sikh spiritual philosophy incorporate ANY Islamic spiritual teaching into it's belief system.  Because apart from adopting a few Arabic and Farsi and Turkish words, Sikhism rejects Islamic extremism and continues to define the spiritual path to mukti in terms of Vaishnav Upanishads.  Even showing that Gurbani incorporated 10% of Islamic spiritual teaching, and 90% of Vaishnav teaching would still be unpersuasive.  But I have poured through Gurbani with a strong familiarity with Islam and Abrahamic faiths, and the 10% of teaching is not even there.  Not even 1% of Gurbani teaching is related to Islamic spiritual philosophy.  

So when I read these incredible and unsupported claims, I read them as propagandistic lies originating from dissimilation by Singh Sabha, trying desperately to deny Hindu relationship even by disreputable means, such as bold-faced lies and political machinations as mass conversions.  But considering the cultural disruption caused by the British and their Christian missionaries, it's understandable in context.  

I can't help but conclude it was equally damaging in hindsight, because modern Sikhs are completely dissociated and virulently rejecting of the sanatan origins of Sikh teaching.  Seeing as majority of Sikhs are Punjabis, from Indic race, and Indic culture it comes across as a form of self-hatred when Sikhs look down on Hindus and try to more closely align themselves with Islam, Abrahamic faiths, the British, Western societies, science and all that.  It's very telling that these notions come from collaborators with the enemy from a particular time in history.  Because no matter how anyone slices it, the Sikh definition of God in Gurbani is Vedantic and bears zero relationship with Abrahamic definitions of One Creator God against a backdrop of false and demonic imposter gods.  NO POSSIBLE WAY.  It is self-delusion even to think it.  Let's be true to Gurbani.

Do this experiment if you still doubt.  Go to any Hindu forum and post this tuuk of Gurbani defining God.  


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ 
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​

They will have no problem recognizing immediately the Hindu origin of this definition.  Then do the same thing on Islamic forums, and see what response you get, if they will accept you and consider you as you say, 

"_Sikhism is walking thin line between indic and semitic religions. To both sides, it appears we are one of them."_

That entire statement is so absurdly false as to bring smile to my face.  Go test for yourself, with actual Gurbani quotes and tell me which Islamic, Christian or Jewish website will accept Gurbani definition of God as all-pervading nirguna with a sarguna, with Naams of Hindu devas and accepted as having created the 330 million demi-gods.  And then come post here their smiling acceptances of you as the same religion.  PLEASE!  I am waiting for some fine humor.  (I am already blowing away the flames of hellfire and damnation.)  Let's not be ludicrous.  These religions think Sikh Guruji is of the devil, an apostate and a false prophet.  Only Islamics who believe Guru Nanak secretly converted to Islam will accept you...provided you also convert.  

Please do this experiment and then post link to your honest responses received.  I dare you.  And then let's put away nonsense talk which has no validity describing Sikh definition of God by IGNORING tuuks of Gurbani which would be considered offensive to monotheists, WHILE PRETENDING to yourselves to be monotheists like the Abrahamics, which you clearly are not.




> SHUDDHI SABHA, a society working in the closing years of the nineteenth century primarily for the reconversion to SIKHISM of those proselytized into Christianity or Islam, was established in 1893. . Christian proselytization had started with the advent of British rule in the Punjab with official encouragement. Though the rate was never alarming, the local religious communities were becoming increasingly selfconscious. The SIKH response had materialized in the shape of the SINGH Sabha. That the SIKHS were the main target is clear from the valedictory instructions given to the first batch of misssionaries of the Church of England appointed to the Punjab in 1852. "A few hopeful instances," they were told, "lead us to believe that the Sikhs may prove more accessible to scriptural truths than the Hindus and the Muhammedans...."
> 
> The principal mission centre was set up at AMRITSAR, the religious capital of the Sikhs. Converts steadily came from amongst Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims. To reclaim such of them as had converted to Christianity, the Muslims formed associations like HimayatiIslam. Orthodox Hinduism does not permit readmission of the apostates, and it was not till the rise of the Arya Samaj that reconversion of shuddhi was encouraged. *The Singh Sabha was not averse to reclaiming converts, but its focus was mainly on religious reform and education. Specifically for reconversion a separate Jatt Singh Sabha was formed at LAHORE by Bhai Uttam Singh and Bhai Nihal Singh Jamadar. Some other Sikhs individually cooperated with the Arya Samajists in their efforts at reconversion. *A broadbased organization came into existence only when Dr Jai Singh (1856-1898), who had not long before set up as a chemist in Lahore, established on 17 April 1893 the Shuddhi Sabha, with representatives from the Singh Sabha, Jatt Singh Sabha, Arya Samaj, Sanatan Dharam Sabha, and Pandit Sabha.


Interesting, not the Hindu Mahants, but the Singh Sabha itself formed it's own separate Jatt caste Sabha.  Now THAT bit of history doesn't fit with the glorified story does it?  Neither does the part about Singh Sabha collaboration with the British and efforts to win numbers to justify a British re-establishment of the independant Sikh Raj, since the British were inclined to go with the majority Hindus and feared strengthening Sikh's.  So collaboration got Sikhs... nothing.  But it created a rift between Sikhism and Hinduism that had not existed during the  tolerant reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.  And it had direct relationship to later conflicts like partition and even Khalisan movement due to incredible animosity created between independant "nationhood" Sikhs and Hindus.



> Harjas ji earlier gave example how sikhs used to have all the hindu rituals. Most of earlier Sikh days fighting with authorities, running from homes, hiding in jungles. Gurudwaras were in control of hindu mahants. But it had to change and it did.


Are you really expecting me to believe that original Sikhs were like Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha guys, running around fighting in jungles, and that Sikh Gurus were so short-sighted as to irresponsibly leave Gurdwaras in hands of Hindu Mahants who would deliberately alter their message of a new Sikh religion?  Are you really expecting me to believe that despite heavy Vedanticism in Gurbani and in Shri Dasm Granth bani, that Sikh Misls were so cowardly and irresponsible as to leave Gurdwaras in hands of their "enemies" the corrupted Hindus, despite the fact they were proclaimed a NEW religion?  

Are you really expecting me to believe that after Sikhs obtained the Kingdom of Punjab, so hard fought for, that everything about it was a corruption and a distortion from the past?  That Khalsa had truly fallen when Sikhs established a prosperous and peaceful empire.  But Khalsa were resurrected when we got Singh Sabha, SGPC, Akali Dal and Sikh Missionary College and Khalsa schools?  Do you really believe Sikh leadership today is a resurrection of the True Khalsa and better than independant Sikh kingdom under Maharaja Ranjit Singh?  I find that hard to bear.  Really I do, because modern Sikh institutions and leadership is the real corruption and distortion.  Just look at Punjab under their leadership.

The fact Gurbani mentions Guru and Gurmukhs wearing Tilak, and Maharaja Ranjit Singh also wearing Tilak does not even strike you as odd?  The fact that Dasm Granth sings praise of Baughati Chandi, and Sikh battle standards were adorned with goddess Chandi, and a painting existed which hung in Harmandir Sahib showing Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji with goddess Chandi is all an accident?

This is just an interpretive opinion which doesn't even answer the facts as to WHY these incredible sanatan discrepancies exist in Sikh history.  Sikh history did not begin and end with Singh Sabha reform.  But quite apart from that, let's just analyse the teachings within Gurbani itself.  How can anyone deny that sanatana Dharma is the origin of Gurbani teaching?  I mean how do we erase and reinterpret every reference to Hindu deva or avtaara and call it all accident of history to manipulate Hindu masses under guise of converting them to a new monotheistic religion, or worse, call Gurbani in part mythological and hence we can pick and choose at will what to believe from it.

~Bhul chak maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> If Sikhi is the same as Vaishnav philosophy, how comes the Vaisnavs were never inspired to organised themselves to resist Moghul oppression?


Why do you content yourself to believe definition of Hindus as cowardly and treacherous and in need of brave Sikhs to protect them?  Even knowing about the bir ras in Dasm Granth bani you still doubt a tradition of Hindu warriors existed, that all Hindus were pacifists like Gandhi and only Sikhs could create a separate warrior religion to save them?  Doesn't it occur to you such a simpistic world-view is nothing less than propaganda?  Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Khalsa derived out of a Kshatriya martial tradition which included many other heroes.  Certainly Sikhs were not the only warrior heroes of India during the Moghul oppression.  These myths of Hindu pacifism are political attempt by the British to control the nation...after slaughtering hundreds of thousands, and nearly rewriting an entire religious history.  In fact, if you analyze the warrior traditions and sects of Hindu India, you can't help but notice powerful parallels between these Hindu warrior traditions and the traditions of the Sikhs.  Vaishnavas and Shaivites were constantly fighting each other as warrior acharas.  They died by thousands fighting the British.  Just consider British influence and propaganda.  Look at Naamdhari sect.  During time of Ram Singh Naamdhari and British resistence movement, they were fierce fighters.  Now they are pacifists who don't even wear kirpan.  The truth is (and I have already posted an article on this), the sadhus and religious acharas which survived, had to become pacifist because the warriors were exterminated outright.  There are new studies regarding the British occupation which are looking at perhaps massacres of millions.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/24/india.randeepramesh


http://www.virginia.edu/soasia/symsem/kisan/papers/sadhus.html

Well, lets honestly look at history and not be overly simplistic in this regard.

Perhaps you have never heard of Rajasthanis, who took to themselves the surname Singh in the 8th century before Guru Nanak's birth.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that everything about the Vishnu avtaaras and Durga/Chandi in Gurbani shows them as armed to the teeth and slaughtering demons.




















There was in fact a history of warrior sadhus, primarily Shaivites but also Vaishnavas.  Here you see in this picture the jura and trishul of Shiva, hallmarks of a warrior-yogi.



> akhara: “exercise arena” or “wrestling pit”; refers in ascetic content to armed regiment or branch of order
> 
> bairagi: “bereft of emotion”; generic term for ascetic; often used for armed Vaishnava ascetic
> 
> ...






> If, however, we view the decade surrounding 1800 as an endpoint rather than a beginning, and conceptualize our inquiry in terms of mentality and practice rather than insurgency, we get a very different picture of armed asceticism in Indian history. By the mid-eighteenth century, with the decline of Mughal imperial authority at Delhi, a new phase of armed asceticism had crystallized. Substantial armies led by either gosains or bairagis and peopled by a rank-and-file "naga" soldiery would find lucrative service in the armies of the major north Indian states -- most notably, under the first three nawabs of Awadh, the Kachhwaha maharajas of Jaipur, and the Jat maharajas of Bharatpur. The most famous of these was Anupgiri Gosain, mentioned above; less well known but equally important was his "elder brother" Umraogiri. Both saw service with almost every major power in northern India, including the British. Only slightly less important were Balanand Swami of Jaipur and his disciple, Ramakrishna Mahant, who together served Madho Singh of Jaipur and Jawahir and Nawal Singh of Bharatpur. The tenacious naga soldiers these men were able to bring to bear on the battlefield would vary, but often reached 20,000 men, consisting of both horse and foot. Their weaponry was state-of-the-art and included musketry and artillery, materials for mounting sieges against well fortified locations, camel guns; their mounted soldiery was said to have the use of "excellent mares", and they also possessed elephants and other pack animals required to transport heavy equipment.
> 
> The large numbers suggest that naga commanders cast a wide net for military recruitment, and relied in particular upon the local north Indian peasant population. (23) Indeed, what is particularly significant about the armed akharas is that they appear to have been remarkably open socially, so tar as recruitment was concerned. This is certainly suggested by the low status to which Saiva nagas have been relegated in the Dasnami hierarchy since the nineteenth century. a low status that is uniformly based on the oft-repeated imputations of the shudra and untouchable origins of the akharas by the well-born Dasnami orthodoxy. (24) And the fact that the "low-born" (antyaj)
> 
> ...






> Shivaji Bhosle, also known as Chhatrapati Shivaji Raje Bhosle (Marathi: छत्रपती शिवाजीराजे भोसले) (Born:February 19, 1630, Died: April 3, 1680) was the founder of Maratha empire in western India in 1674.
> 
> He is considered a great hero in India, especially in the present-day state of Maharashtra...
> 
> ...







Shivaji Maharaj hero of Maratha

~Bhul chak maaf


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## dalsingh (Jul 29, 2008)

> Why do you content yourself to believe definition of Hindus as cowardly and treacherous and in need of brave Sikhs to protect them? Even knowing about the bir ras in Dasm Granth bani you still doubt a tradition of Hindu warriors existed, that all Hindus were pacifists like Gandhi and only Sikhs could create a separate warrior religion to save them? Doesn't it occur to you such a simpistic world-view is nothing less than propaganda?



You really need to apply brakes to the hurtling steam train Harjas. I, in no way, consider all Hindus to be cowardly and treacherous. I think you are projecting some presumptions upon me. I don't subscribe to the type of stereotyping you are suggesting. So please first, let that sink in. 

I know Hindu society can be violent and militant. You don't have to look too far for evidence for this, past and present. I haven't either subscribed to the thinking that portrays Sikhs as the "swordarm" of Hinduism either, despite meeting many Hindus over the years who actually believe this themselves. 

I'm also aware of Shivaji but you do have to ask why, given the comparatively large numbers of Hindus in comparison to Sikhs, there were not more like Shivaji and his followers? The miltancy of shivaji seems quite exceptional in Hindu society whilst militancy was an essential and integral part of the original Khalsa. 

Don't get your facts twisted up. I have grown up in quite a rough and ready part of town and have seen cowardice from Sikhs in the face of violence. I don't subscribe to that supremacist thinking you're alluding to. But in the end, Sikhism and Hinduism are two distinctly different things.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> Harjas ji,
> You are trying to convince my fellow Sikh brethern here that Sikhism is offshoot of vaishnav. Do you reallly understand that by saying so you are backstabing house of Satgur Nanak? Do you understand you are levelling allegations against Satgur Nanak for stealing vaishnav philosophy and not even mentioning it?


"My fellow Sikh brethren."  Do you realize how dualistic this all sounds, "us" against "them."  That's a political viewpoint.  So hold on tight to your "brethren" because a little lady will give "you Sikh brethren" some powerful thoughts to consider.

_Do you reallly understand that by saying so you are backstabing house of Satgur Nanak? Do you understand you are levelling allegations against Satgur Nanak for stealing vaishnav philosophy and not even mentioning it?_
I accuse modern Sikh movement of stabbing Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message in the back and creating some kind of elitest, ethnocentric "us" against "them" political philosophy out of a spiritual teaching of seeing the One All-pervading God in every other.  

How can Guru Nanak Dev Ji "steal" Vaishnav philosophy if He Himself was a Vaishnav and an avtaara of the Vaishnav lineage?  Since it is Gurbani itself which elevates the das avtaara, and calls Guruji an avataar, perhaps we should rethink this childish mentality of Guruji "stealing" a philosophy.  Rather it goes to prove Guruji was from within this tradition, and not at odds with it, as Singh Sabha reformers have tried to create.  It is the Singh Sabha position which has waged war on Guruji's teaching.  




> Harjas ji, if you believe for a minute in Satgur Nanak and what he is saying, do you think he would have mentioned it in his mool mantar? Or atleast in Japji? (although you have been trying in vain to prove that aum means trimurti not Lord himself). What stopped Guru Nanak from writing word 'Vishnu' in mool mantar?


Do you think Vedantic spiritual philosophy reads like a child's book having to underscore every sentence with: "Vishnu is indeed the Supreme in case you were all wondering."  It isn't Vishnu that certain schools of Vaishnavism worship as Supreme.  Some worship Krishna as Supreme.  And others worship Maha-Vishnu, which translates the All-Pervading One, as Supreme.  It is my belief that Gurbani elevates the All-pervading Oneness of nirguna, which is a form of Maha-Vishnu.  And the corroboration for this is Gurbani elevates the das avataars as sargun God, and teaches Sikhs to praise the nirguna by japping Naams and titles of the avataars, Bhai Gurdas Ji also shows Vaheguru Gurmantra consists of beej syllables of Vishnu avtaras: V=Vishnu, Vasudeyv, H=Har Krishna, G=Gobind, R=Ram.

You don't find this shocking based on your position there is NO Vaishnavism in Gurbani?  I don't suppose with your position that Muslims recognize Gurbani definitions of the One Creator God would happily accept Vaheguru Gurmantra.  If you at all studied Vaishnava Upanishads you would realize the Vaishnava school recognizes the Parabrahm narayana as the ultimate sargun.  Maha-Vishnu is the Jyot by which the nirguna incarnates.  These aren't "different gods" but different aspects of the Oneness.




> Vishnu (IAST viṣṇu, Devanagari विष्णु), (honorific: Bhagavan or Sri Vishnu) also known as Narayana, is the Hindu god, responsible for the preservation of the universe. He is considered as the Supreme being or Ultimate Reality (Brahman) in Vaishnavism, a sect of Hinduism devoted to Vishnu worship.
> 
> The Vishnu Sahasranama[1] describes Vishnu as the All-Pervading essence of all beings, the master of and beyond the past, present and future, the creator and destroyer of all existences, one who supports, sustains and governs the Universe and originates and develops all elements within.
> 
> ...


Interesting if Gurbani denies Vishnu, as you presume, can you please explain this tuuk?


ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| 

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​




> It is also within the Puranas that the information regarding Vishnu's avatars is given. Nine of these avatars, or 'incarnations' are described as having occurred in the past, with one still to happen at the end of Kali Yuga. The Bhagavad Gita mentions their purpose as being to rejuvenate Dharma[3] and vanquish negative forces as also to display His divine pastimes in front of the conditioned/fallen souls. In virtually all the Sanatana Dharma traditions, Vishnu is worshipped, either directly or through avatars such as Rama, Krishna, Varaha and Narasimha. It should be however noted that although its is usual to speak of Vishnu as the source of the avatars, this is only one of the names of god in Vaishnavism who is also known as Narayana, Vasudeva and Krishna and behind each of those names is a divine figure with attributed supremacy in Vaishnavism.[4]
> 
> * Bhagavata 1.2.11 declares: "vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate". The meaning of the verse is as follows: "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. [5]
> 
> ...




ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
sabh eaekaa joth jaanai jae koee ||
The One Light is all-pervading; only a few know this.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
sathigur saeviai paragatt hoee ||
Serving the True Guru, this is revealed.

ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਥਾਈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥ 
gupath paragatt varathai sabh thhaaee jothee joth milaavaniaa ||2||
In the hidden and in the obvious, He is pervading all places. Our light merges into the Light. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 120​


ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. 

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe. 

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra. 

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥ 
naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​




> I just have some idea of what vaishnav mat is about. But I have full faith in Satguru Nanak. He never gave preference to vaishnav mat in his teachings.  Sometimes people see what they want to see.



I am still waiting for believable explanation for all the Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani as NOT meaning a Vaishnavist philosophy of some sort was the intention.  You say you have "full faith" in what you think Guruji did or didn't teach.  Yet the teachings are right in front of you and you refuse to see them.  Why is Vaishnav teaching of the 10 incarnations of Vishnu in Gurbani being praised as sargun God?  EXPLAIN PLEASE?  I'm sure the Islamics would love to know.  Especially since you said they felt so sure that Sikhism teaches so much from their religious philosophy they believe it is the same religion.  And you know as well as I do, tuuks like this in Gurbani would get you murdered in an Islamic country if you tried to say it was the same religion as Islam.



> You know most of the sikhs here are not familiar with vaisnav teaching, yet you come here with lot of examples from vedas, vaishnav theology and ofcourse gurbani, trying to prove that Sikhism is another form of vaishnav mat.


Why are Sikhs, who are medical doctors, lawyers, engineers, millionaire businessmen, generals, who would visit a "Sikh Philosophy Forum" and especially on an "interfaith dialogue thread" remain so uneducated about a religious philosophy which appears in their own Gurbani and has been contested issue for 100 years now?  Is there an excuse for Sikhs to remain uneducated if they want to study the spiritual implications of their own religion?  




> You realize that hinduism has oral tradition of keeping their texts. How can you say that texts you have been referring not been altered to make more sense in modern times? Hinduism had no answer for Budhhism for centuries. But then with new translations from Shankarcharya, brahmins made Buddhism just another sect of hinduism and distinct features of Buddhism (ahinsa(hence vegetarianism), vipasna, idol worship) were made just some more hindu rituals.


Veer ji, you're going to have to do better than that.  For one thing, the Vaishnava Upanishads and Puranas are all older than Guru Nanak Dev Ji.  No underground malicious Hindutva organization is rewriting old scriptures simply to prove a political point about Sikhs.  Do you realize how this argument sounds?  It reminds me of the Christians who accuse that all the dinosaur bones which prove theory of evolution were placed in the ground by the devil to deceive mankind into disbelieving the Christian Bible.

The writings of Shankara in establishing Advaita philosophy to understand Buddhist doctrines of Shunyata are absolute gems.  This isn't any rewriting of the original Vedas.  It is powerful re-interpretation of ancient scriptures.  But a discussion on Advaita and Dvaita and Achinta-Bedha-Abedha would have to be a thread of it's own for the sheer brilliance, beauty and complexity.  To relegate the greatest philosophical minds discussing complex teachings about nirguna and sarguna, as being some deliberate, clumsy, paranoid, manipulative re-writing to incorporate Busddhist doctrine is so far off the mark.  Buddha is regarded as a Vishnu avataar precisely because his spiritual insights were so brilliant, the sages of the day had to scramble to put them in context.

Do you really believe that Vaishnavists, for example, went back to the Bhagavata Purana and added things about the nirguna and the sarguna and the das avataara simply to prove that Gurbani writing about these concepts shows that Sikh religion is Vaishnav philosophy?  It's not even logical.  Or do you mean to imply that the das avataara is some kind of Sikh monotheistic concept and the Vaishnavs stole it by re-writing into their framework of philosophy?  Because once we let go of these clumsy and untenable interpretations, we have to logically conclude that the Sikh Gurus were obviously educated and accepted the spiritual concepts which derive from a Vaishnav framework.  And proof of the acceptance is Guruji WROTE these concepts into what has been designated, not the writings of many people from different backgrounds where were can agree or disagree with bhagat bani versus Gurubani... but ALL these philosophical writings have been incorporated into a whole... designated as SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAAJ!  And when Sikhs bow their heads to Guruji, they bow their heads to absolutely everything that is written in Gurbani as absolute truth revealed by the Guru to the shishya.

So we don't pick and choose and invent our own philosophy about what Guruji is teaching.  Guruji is the teacher.  We are not the teacher.  When I say Gurbani has Vaishnav message it is because that message is in Gurbani, and I can prove parallels with Vaishnav scriptures.  I did not make anything up just to cause drama or upset sentiments of people.  So don't accuse me blindly of doing so.  I try to prove the sources of my points and clearly link them.  I do not claim to be correct.  I can only be correct to the best of my understanding.  But one thing I refuse to do...I refuse to conform my opinion to a political agenda.  I am convinced of the truth of Vaishnav spiritual philosophy in Gurbani message and that is why I accept Sikhi to be sanatana Dharma and not a separate religion.




> There are many refrences to vaishnav mat in gurbani. But I must post this shabad.
> panna 960
> 
> ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੫ ॥
> ...


Ask yourself the question, is this pauri saying all Vaishnavs are corrupted hypocrites as per the ethnocentric and egotistical Singh Sabha definition?  Or is the pauri warning us NOT to pretend to be outwardly pure and spiritual while remaining corrupted?  Because that is a profound difference in interpretation. So either ALL Vaishnavs are corrupted hypocrites and Gurbani denounces them.  Or Vaishnavs are considered holy, and Gurbani is warning people to be sincere Vaishnavs and not hypocritical.  If you are called a Vaishnav, Gurbani is saying, live up to the name as in this tuuk by Bhagat Baini:


ਠਗ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਬਗਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ 
thag dhisatt bagaa liv laagaa ||
You look like a thug; pretending to meditate, you pose like a crane.

ਦੇਖਿ ਬੈਸਨੋਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮੁਖ ਭਾਗਾ ॥੧॥ 
dhaekh baisano praan mukh bhaagaa ||1||
You try to look like a Vaishnaav, but the breath of life escapes through your mouth. ||1||​

Another important fact to consider is Gurbani will never contradict itself if it is absolute truth.  It cannot say one thing one place, and then another someplace else.  It has to be coherent, and all the points need to line up and match.  So consider this...if the Singh Sabha anti-Vaishnav viewpoint was the correct interpretation of this pauri in Gurbani, how can anyone then reconcile with this?  



ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਨੇਮ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ 
karam dhharam naem brath poojaa ||
The karma of good actions, the Dharma of righteous living, religious rituals, fasts and worship 

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥ 
paarabreham bin jaan n dhoojaa ||2||
- practice these, but do not know any other than the Supreme Lord God. ||2||

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲ ॥ਜਾ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੩॥ 
thaa kee pooran hoee ghaal || jaa kee preeth apunae prabh naal ||3||
Those who place their love in God - their works are brought to fruition. ||3|| 

ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋਹੈ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
so baisano hai apar apaar ||
Infinitely invaluable is that Vaishnaav, that worshipper of Vishnu, 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਜੇ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥੪॥੯੬॥੧੬੫॥ 
kahu naanak jin thajae bikaar ||4||96||165||
says Nanak, who has renounced corruption. ||4||96||165||
~SGGS Ji p. 199​




> You are trying to prove Sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat. Me, an ignorant Sikh, is reading literally 'vaishnav' word as mentioned above.  You are trying to prove here with examples taken from vedas and other hindu texts alongwith shabads that Sikhism philosophy is borowed from vaishnav mat. Me, here is just believing what fifth master has to say about vaishnav mat.


Indeed.  Let's read closely and intently in context of other pauris what Shri Guru Arjun Dev Ji is saying.  Read and please explain to me, reconciling it with your imposed interpretation of the first pauri you quoted.  Gurbani has to reconcile and match up.  It can't say one thing one place and something else somewhere else, or that just means we haven't understood it.



ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਅਪਰਸ ॥੧॥ 
naanak kott madhhae ko aisaa aparas ||1||
- O Nanak, among millions, there is scarcely one such 'touch-nothing Saint'. ||1|| 

ਬੈਸਨੋਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ 
baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||
The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ 
bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||
He dwells apart from Maya. 

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ 
karam karath hovai nihakaram ||
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥ 
this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥ 
kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||
he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥ 
kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||
He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.  

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥ 
man than anthar simaran gopaal ||
Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥ 
sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||
He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥ 
aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai ||
He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ 
naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2||
O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ 
bhagouthee bhagavanth bhagath kaa rang ||
The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God. 

ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥ 
sagal thiaagai dhusatt kaa sang ||
He forsakes the company of all wicked people.

ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥ 
man thae binasai sagalaa bharam ||
All doubts are removed from his mind.  

ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥ 
kar poojai sagal paarabreham ||
He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ 
saadhhasang paapaa mal khovai ||
In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away. 

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ 
this bhagouthee kee math ootham hovai ||
The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme.

ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਨੀਤਿ ॥ 
bhagavanth kee ttehal karai nith neeth ||
He constantly performs the service of the Supreme Lord God. 

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਬਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥ 
man than arapai bisan pareeth ||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Love of God.

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
har kae charan hiradhai basaavai ||
The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart.

ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ 
naanak aisaa bhagouthee bhagavanth ko paavai ||3||
O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥ 
so panddith jo man parabodhhai ||
He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥ 
raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ॥ 
raam naam saar ras peevai ||
He drinks in the Exquisite Nectar of the Lord's Name.

ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕੈ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥ 
ous panddith kai oupadhaes jag jeevai ||
By that Pandit's teachings, the world lives.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
har kee kathhaa hiradhai basaavai ||
He implants the Sermon of the Lord in his heart. 

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ 
so panddith fir jon n aavai ||
Such a Pandit is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.  

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥ 
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist. 

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥ 
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥ 
naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4|| 

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
beej manthra sarab ko giaan ||
The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone. 

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ 
chahu varanaa mehi japai kooo naam ||
Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
jo jo japai this kee gath hoe ||
Whoever chants it, is emancipated.
~SGGS Ji p. 274
​



> Harjas ji, you understand gurbani is collection of shabads said by different authors with different religious backgrounds at different times in different conditions. Guru sahib were trying to say that Lord can be reached even while living in different sharias (religious rituals) if you have love of Lord. But you have taken these shabads without trying to understand context, put together to reach the conclusion that Sikhism is nothing but vaishnav mat.


The entire Gurbani is not different messages from different people.  It is one Shabad-Jyot of Guru Sahib.  And every single word of it is a complete and harmonious message of truth.  Gurbani does not say Vaishnav is following rituals in the way it says a brahmin is.  Gurbani says don't be a hypocritical Vaishnav, because the Vaishnav is spotlessly pure and attains the Supreme Lord by Naam jap and Kirtan.  And this is undoubtedly why Sikhs jap and sing kirtan of the sargun names of the Vishnu avataars like the Vaishnavs do.  And that alone begs the question of Vaishnav mat, don't you think?




> Harjas ji, I have just one question. Do you agree that Fifth Master had better knowledge of gurubani and vaishnav mat than you and me? If yes, what do you think stopped them from beating bushes here and there instead of saying in every shabad that we are vaishnavs, but gurmukhs? Do you have doubts about Fifth Master's intentions?


If fifth Master is saying that religion of a Vaishnav is spotlessly pure, don't you think we should evaluate what exactly that might mean before jumping to conclusions about fifth Master "condemning" all Vaishnavs?  Wouldn't that kind of attitude show more loyalty to Guruji's actual message that imposing some anti-Vaishnav, hostility and inferiority about Vaishnava Vedanta?  Because the way I see it, so many "self-righteous Sikhs" condemning holy people of Hindu Panth are actually condemning themselves spiritually in Guruji's eyes and showing disloyalty to Guruji's message which was far more inclusive than modern Singh Sabha political animosities.  That is the real betrayal.





> If you doubt Fifth Master's intentions, then you are not a Sikh, but a vaishnav, trying to impose that sikhs are part of vaishnav mat.


You presume to judge my soul?



ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਮਕਰੰਦੁ ਰਸਿ ਹੋਇ ਭਵਰੁ ਲੈ ਵਾਸੁ ਲੁਭਾਵੈ । 
charan kamal makarandu rasi hoi bhavaru|ai vaasu|ubhaavai|
Like the black bee they surrender at the lotus feet of Guru and enjoy the sap and remain happy.

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਲਘਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੇਣੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ । 
irhaa pingulaa sukhamanaa|aghi tribaynee nij ghari aavai|
They go beyond the triveni of ira, pingala and susumna and stablize in their own self.

ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਪਵਣ ਲਿਵ ਸੋਹੰ ਹੰਸਾ ਜਪੈ ਜਪਾਵੈ । 
saahi saahi manu pavan|iv *sohan hansaa* japai japaavai|
They through the flame of breath, mind and the life force, recite and make others recite the* soham and hans* recitations (jap)

ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੂਪ ਲਿਵ ਗੰਧ ਸੁਗੰਧਿ ਅਵੇਸੁ ਮਚਾਵੈ । 
acharaj roop anoop|iv gandh sugandhi avaysu machaavai|
The form of surati is wonderfully fragrant and enrapturing.  

ਸੁਖਸਾਗਰ ਚਰਣਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਸੁਖ ਸੰਪਟ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ । 
sukhasaagar charanaarabind sukh sanpat vichi sahaji samaavai|
The gurmukhs calmly absorb in the pleasure-ocean of the Guru feet.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲ ਪਿਰਮ ਰਸੁ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਦੇਹ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ । 
guramukhi sukh dhal piram rasu dayh bidayh param padu paavai|
When they in the form of pleasure-fruit obtain the supreme joy, they go beyond the bondages of body and bodylessness and attain the highest station.

ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਵੈ ॥੧੧॥ 
saadh sangati mili alakhu|akhaavai ॥11॥
Such gurmukhs have the glimpse of that invisible Lord in the holy congregation.
~Vaar 6 Pauri 11 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​




> It is believed that the entire creation was manifested with the sound of Om, the Nada Brahman. Om is a combination of So and Ham. This sound vibrates every moment of our life till there is life in our body, till life continues to flow through the Kundalini.
> 
> When the sound travels through the various bodies it gets refined and the vibration ultimately merges in Om. It is constantly chanted within us and is thus called the highest mantra, the Mantra Maheshwara. Ham beejam, says the Guru Gita, which means the sound of Ham is the seed of the entire consciousness which pervades us.
> 
> ...




~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> (although you have been trying in vain to prove that aum means trimurti not Lord himself)


Indeed.  Well lets look at basic definitions before concluding something is vain or not.

Eko Brahman Omkara.
Ekaksara.  Omkara.
Ek Omkar.

Seems like a logical derivation meaning the nirgun One Parabrahman created the universe out of the three gunas and the three Mahadevas.  Gurbani says this as well.  Where Gurbani describes the God as All-pervading, here is where you find your Maha-Vishnu, most especially where you find praise of the das avtaaras of Vishnu, many would consider that particular spiritual philosophy, a form of Vaishnavism directly taken from Vaishnava Puranas.



> one definition of Aum from vast knowledge of hinduism and can try to prove that EkOmKar means 'one trimurti creator'.
> Definition you are giving is one of the definitions Aum given by one of many indian schools (hindu, jain, budhhsist etc). If we look in wikepedia for 'Aum', yours definition comes at somewhere below middle of page under heading 'Puranic Hinduism'.


The fact is, Ek Omkar refers to both nirguna and sarguna.  Hence it is both the One and the many.  The Lord Himself is uncreated.  And the Lord Himself pervades in His creation.  And that is the root meaning of EkOmKara.


ਆਪਿ ਇਕੰਤੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
aap eikanthee aap pasaaraa ||
He Himself is the One, and He Himself is the Many.
~sggs jI P. 108​
ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ 
kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||
The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same.""||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 693​

Most Sikhs don't even know what the "sound current of the Naad even is.  And that the Nada comes from the Aum.  Even the simple words EkOmKar are derivative from an ancient, complex yogic  and mystical philosophy regarding secrets of the creation of the universes taken from Sruti.  Even from the very begining of sanatana Dharma, the teaching that sound current and japping certain mantras of sounds were a path to liberation.  There are many mantras.  Sikhism simply takes those Naam mantras found in Vaishnavism and promotes them as the highest boat of mukti for the kalyug, as opposed to say Gayatri mantra, or ritualistic pujas.  Sikhism says the bhakti of Naam japna is the way of ultimate liberation.  And this is the same exact teaching of Vaishnava bhakti.  So I don't know why anyone would go to great lengths trying to prove there is no association possible, when the teachings are so parallel.


> _Metaphysically, the mystic sounds of the Eternal, of which the highest is the transcendent or Soundless Sound, Paranada, the first vibration from which creation emanates. Paranada is so pure and subtle that it cannot be identified to the denser regions of the mind. From Paranada comes Pranava, Aum, and further evolutes of nada. These are experienced by the meditator as the nadanadi shakti, "the energy current of sound," heard pulsing through the nerve system as a constant high-pitched hum, much like a tambura, an electrical transformer, a swarm of bees or a shruti box.
> http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Nada/id/60996_






> The Sanskrit name for the syllable is praṇava, from a root nu "to shout, sound, praise", verbal pra-nu- being attested as "to make a humming or droning sound" in the Brahmanas, and taking the specific meaning of "to utter the syllable om" in the Chandogya Upanishad and the Shrauta Sutras. More rarely used terms are akṣara or *ekākṣara*, and in later times *omkāra* becomes prevalent.
> 
> The syllable Aum is first described as all-encompassing mystical entity in the Upanishads. Today, in all Hindu art and all over India and Nepal, 'Aum' can be seen virtually everywhere, a common sign for Hinduism and its philosophy and mythology.
> 
> ...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> If Sikhi is the same as Vaishnav philosophy, how comes the Vaisnavs were never inspired to organised themselves to resist Moghul oppression?
> 
> 
> I'm also aware of Shivaji but you do have to ask why, given the comparatively large numbers of Hindus in comparison to Sikhs, there were not more like Shivaji and his followers? The miltancy of shivaji seems quite exceptional in Hindu society whilst militancy was an essential and integral part of the original Khalsa.


There were military movements of sadhus, the Shaivite Nath and Vaishnava acharas were Armies, as were the Khalsa naturally these groups stood out.  But not all of these groups had the best weapons.  The militancy of Shivaji is exceptional perhaps because of his individual brilliance, much as the brilliant militancy of Dasm Pita Ji.  But just because people fight and die and lose battles doesn't mean they have less courage.  Even with some of the world's greatest military leaders like Guruji Maharaaj and Shivaji, the Moghul Armies were too big and too powerful.  It was a genuine achievement and grace that Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was able to actually rout the Moghuls, but this was after a 500 year period of brutal oppression.  The fact remains that only if you divide Sikhs out of the equation does it look like Hindus can't defend themselves.  But if you consider Sikhs a sect within basic Vedantic teachings, then the Khalsa were and are, like the Kshatriyas of old and the sadhu acharyas, evidence of the strength, determination and persistence of the Hindu people against overwhelming odds, to keep fighting until they won.  

People creating the notion that Sikhs, like some foreign group just happened upon a culture of oppression and decided it was merciful to lay down their lives defending Hindus doesn't even make logical sense.  

It's the artificial contrivance of the argument where Sikhs aren't fighting for the homeland of their own ancestors, or the precious and masterful teachings of Gurbani which are based on familiar and precious teachings from ancient masterpieces of spirituality like the Vedas and Upanishads.  So naturally where Sikhs consider that only _their_ ancestors made military sacrifices for India, just suppresses a more realistic understanding of the actual history that Hindus from this region of Hindustan kept developing revolutionary spiritual movements to rally the people to fight and resist injustice until the Moghuls were finally driven out.  And so we have to look again at the meanings of the term Hindu as being religion as well as culture.  Because it's unrealistic to say Sikhs weren't a part of this cultural heritage and enduring the very same sacrifices of cruelty, injustice and barbarism which caused so many to fight and die over hundreds of years than to submit.  

And if you factor into the equation that genocidal massacres have the ability to destroy the fighting spirit of entire villages, and even cultures, and second that God Himself ordained Guruji to be the power to drive out the Moguls plus the economic collapse of the Moghul empire finally was the tipping point that turned the tide of a hundreds years long conflict.  There's really no question about whether Sikhs are a better community than Hindus, or Hindus are somehow inferior and disorganized.  Realistically, at least until the time of Singh Sabha reform, Hindu's didn't see Sikhs as a different religion.  And the fact that so many Hindu families gave their first born sons to join and fight with the Khalsa tells you something about the cultural identity of the Khalsa Army as being one of substantially Hindu identity.  So how precisely do we divide out the Sikh population from the Hindu population to create the artificial standard that Sikhs did more for Hindustan than Hindus?

Don't you see the illogic of the argument?


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## Astroboy (Jul 29, 2008)

> It is entirely irrelevant from a research point of view to analyze how imaginative modern movements may now lay claim to interpreting Kalki avataar. It simply has no bearing whatsoever on analyzing what mention of Kalki avataar in Gurbani could mean.


Harjas Ji,

Perhaps we are making an assumption here as to what Hinduism is. Do you know that Shiva is never mentioned in the Brahmin literature ? In fact, Shiva was never a Hindu deity that's why it's called Dakshina Moorty. I can even challenge anyone who claims that Raam was a Hindu. Just because Ramayana (Story of Ram) was written and followed by so-called Hindus, doesn't make Raam a Hindu Avtaar. Just like Kabir or Sheikh Fareed who are revered by Sikhs, does not make them Sikhs.


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## dalsingh (Jul 29, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> There were military movements of sadhus, the Shaivite Nath and Vaishnava acharas were Armies, as were the Khalsa naturally these groups stood out.  But not all of these groups had the best weapons.  The militancy of Shivaji is exceptional perhaps because of his individual brilliance, much as the brilliant militancy of Dasm Pita Ji.  But just because people fight and die and lose battles doesn't mean they have less courage.  Even with some of the world's greatest military leaders like Guruji Maharaaj and Shivaji, the Moghul Armies were too big and too powerful.  It was a genuine achievement and grace that Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was able to actually rout the Moghuls, but this was after a 500 year period of brutal oppression.  The fact remains that only if you divide Sikhs out of the equation does it look like Hindus can't defend themselves.  But if you consider Sikhs a sect within basic Vedantic teachings, then the Khalsa were and are, like the Kshatriyas of old and the sadhu acharyas, evidence of the strength, determination and persistence of the Hindu people against overwhelming odds, to keep fighting until they won.



There were significant differences between original Khalsas and ksyattris. The foremost being the latter were serving an overlord and not, as in the case of the Khalsa, a set of ideals, Panjabi territory or their own existence. 



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> People creating the notion that Sikhs, like some foreign group just happened upon a culture of oppression and decided it was merciful to lay down their lives defending Hindus doesn't even make logical sense.



It doesn't make sense because it is false and anyone pushing this view is also wrong. What motivated the Khalsa to free captive women in Abdali Shah/Nadir Shah's returning caravans is subject to conjecture, I can't say definitively. Was it politically motivated? Was it some social understanding Sikhs of that time had? I don't know. However, I am pretty sure that Sikhs didn't see themselves as the swordarm of Hinduism and that this idea became current at a later stage. 



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> It's the artificial contrivance of the argument where Sikhs aren't fighting for the homeland of their own ancestors, or the precious and masterful teachings of Gurbani which are based on familiar and precious teachings from ancient masterpieces of spirituality like the Vedas and Upanishads.  So naturally where Sikhs consider that only _their_ ancestors made military sacrifices for India, just suppresses a more realistic understanding of the actual history that Hindus from this region of Hindustan kept developing revolutionary spiritual movements to rally the people to fight and resist injustice until the Moghuls were finally driven out.  And so we have to look again at the meanings of the term Hindu as being religion as well as culture.  Because it's unrealistic to say Sikhs weren't a part of this cultural heritage and enduring the very same sacrifices of cruelty, injustice and barbarism which caused so many to fight and die over hundreds of years than to submit.



In this analysis you conveniently overlook the fact that many Rajputs and Brahmins  were colluding with the Moguls administration and had a vested interest in their success. This is no secret. Where certain aspiring Rajput Hill Rajahs did try to assert their independence from Moghul/Turk rule, the history of Dasmesh Pita shows they were very fluid in their position. Fighting against them one moment and colluding the next. Sikh tradition also states that higher caste Hindus were generally disinclined to join the Khalsa, seeing it as a break away from their own traditions and perhaps not wanting to completely destroy links with the ruling classes. This may also explain why the majority of Sikhs are made up of the peasant and artisan classes who had nothing to gain from maintaining links with the rulers. This also highlights the social and class struggle in  the original Sikh movement.

Khalsa history is significantly different in that the majority Tat Khalsa (not the Singh Sabha group of the same name), adopted and maintained a position of anti-establishment to extremes from Banda Singh onwards. This can be seen in many forms including, interestingly, a ban on learning Persian as seen in some extant rehat namas. 

Yes, there is likley to have been considerable sympathy for the Khalsa's anti-government stance from many quarters including Jatts and other oppressed Hindus. This will have grown to admiration as the Khalsa successfully contested their opponents. This will also explain the conversions and giving away of a son. Look I'm not trying to whitewash any relationship between Hindus and Sikhs but it must be admitted that especially after the post-Khalsa period, the two took *seriously *different trajectories. Again you may be in danger of overemphasizing similarities and  ignoring important differences. 



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> There's really no question about whether Sikhs are a better community than Hindus, or Hindus are somehow inferior and disorganized.  Realistically, at least until the time of Singh Sabha reform, Hindu's didn't see Sikhs as a different religion.  And the fact that so many Hindu families gave their first born sons to join and fight with the Khalsa tells you something about the cultural identity of the Khalsa Army as being one of substantially Hindu identity.  So how precisely do we divide out the Sikh population from the Hindu population to create the artificial standard that Sikhs did more for Hindustan than Hindus?
> 
> * Don't you see the illogic of the argument?*



I don't even get the argument. Sikhs didn't consciously do anything for Hindustan. Sure, their actions benefited Hindustan by successfully challenging Islamic invasions and stopping these. I believe this to be an inadvertent consequence. This was not done for Hindustan but for Sikhs own sake. We know how Panjabis suffered from the hordes passing through the Khyber Pass for centuries.   So any Sikh pushing that, "we saved Hindus nonsense" needs to stop. But also bear in mind that plenty of Hindus past and present subscribe to the "Hindu swordarm" theory themselves. Hell, I very recently had a well educated doctor expressing this to me. If some Sikhs are brainwashed into thinking themselves the saviours of Hindus, then some Hindus themselves are brainwashed into thinking that Sikhs are their protectors. 

Anyway, I'm bowing out now.

Harjas, I must say however, that many of the points you make are valid and worthwhile and that Sikhs *should *look into the ways in which British influence on Sikhi during the colonised period, impacted on Sikhs both positively and negatively.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 29, 2008)

> Namjap ji writes: "Perhaps we are making an assumption here as to what Hinduism is. Do you know that Shiva is never mentioned in the Brahmin literature ? In fact, Shiva was never a Hindu deity that's why it's called Dakshina Moorty. I can even challenge anyone who claims that Raam was a Hindu. Just because Ramayana (Story of Ram) was written and followed by so-called Hindus, doesn't make Raam a Hindu Avtaar. Just like Kabir or Sheikh Fareed who are revered by Sikhs, does not make them Sikhs."


Well we are back to the original contention that Vaishnavism and Shaivite Nath acharas started in conflict with established brahminism, and the brahminism which Gurbani corrects and chastises as "Hinduism" isn't even the same use of the term today which includes Vaishnavism itself.  Nonetheless, modernly the term Hinduism includes these varying sects and for very good reason, they all conform to Sruti with different variations of interpretation.  Gurbani does this also.

Brahmin literature, perhaps you mean Brahman Upanishads?  Surely you realize there are Shiva Sutras as well?  The earlier name for Shiva is Rudra, and Rudra is one of the principal deities recognizable in artifacts from Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro.  So to try to make Shiva out as invalid and non-Hindu deity is rather far-fetched.

I don't really get what you're trying to get at by saying Shiva was never a Hindu (people of the land of Indus Valley) deity by calling as Dakshina Murthy.  Lol.  Remember not to interpret Hinduism according to Abrahamic viewpoint which degrades individual deities into competing personalities, or false sub-deities jostling for Supremacy with the One True God.

Rather see this whole philosophy as human minds grasping the Magnificence of the Divine One in many individual aspects which are related, in the form of superimpositions.  Shiva is in fact another form of the nirgun Oneness.  Gurbani says Shiva and Shakti are the union of consciousness and matter in all beings.  So how can Shiva NOT belong to Vedanta?  



> The Shri Rudram Chamakam (Sanskrit श्रि रुद्रम् चमकम्) is a Vedic stotra dedicated to Rudra (an early epithet for the Hindu god Shiva).  Shri Rudram is also known as Sri Rudraprasna, Śatarudrīya, and Rudradhyaya. The text is important in Vedantic religion describing Lord Shiva as the Universal Brahman. The hymn is an early example of enumerating the names of a deity, a tradition developed extensively in the sahasranama literature of Hinduism. By the first few centuries CE, the recitation of the Śatarudrīya is claimed, in the Jābala Upanishad, to lead to immortality. The hymn is referred to in the Shiva Purana.
> Shri Rudram Chamakam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







> Dakshinamurthy or Jnana Dakshinamurti(Sanskrit: दक्षिणामूर्ति ((Dakṣiṇāmūrti)) is an aspect of Shiva as a guru (teacher) of all type of knowledge, particularly the jnana. This aspect of Shiva is his personification as the supreme or the ultimate awareness, understanding and knowledge.  This form represents Shiva in his aspect as a teacher of yoga, music, and wisdom, and giving exposition on the shastras.  He is worshipped as the god of wisdom, complete and rewarding meditation.
> 
> Dakshinamurti literally means 'one who is facing south (dakṣiṇa)' in Sanskrit. South is the direction of Death, hence change....
> Dakshinamurthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Lord Shiva as Dakshinamurthy, the first Guru




> Who is the real God of gods? In whom are all these existences established? By worshipping whom, can I please the Devas in whole?
> Hearing these words, Sri Veda Vyasa replied thus:
> Rudra is the embodiment of all Devas. All devas are merely different manifestations of Sri Rudra Himself. On the right side of Rudra, there is the sun, then the four-headed Brahma, and then three Agnis (fires). On the left side, there exist Sri Umadevi, and also Vishnu and Soma (moon).
> 
> ...





> Rudra (Sanskrit: रुद्रः) is a Rigvedic god of the storm,[1] the wind, and the hunt. The name has been translated as "Roarer",[2][3][4] "Howler",[5] "Wild One", and "Terrible". Rudra is thought to be an early form of Shiva. [6] By the time that the Ramayana was written, the name Rudra is taken as a synonym for Shiva and the two names are used interchangeably...
> 
> The Sanskrit name Rudra is usually derived from the root rud- which means "to cry, howl." According to this etymology, the name Rudra has been translated as "the Roarer". An alternate etymology suggested by Prof. Pischel derives Rudra ("the Red, the Brilliant") from a lost root rud-, "to be red" or "to be ruddy", or according to Grassman, "to shine". Stella Kramrisch notes a different etymology connected with the adjectival form raudra, which means wild, of rudra nature, and translates the name Rudra as "the Wild One" or "the Fierce God". R. K. Sharma follows this alternate etymology and translates the name as "Terrible" in his glossary for the Shiva Sahasranama.
> 
> ...


Since Rudra appears in the Vedas, the Shiva which derived from him surely belongs to the Hindu pantheon.  I have no idea what sources cause you to think otherwise.



> The Sanskrit word Shiva (Devanagari: शिव, śiva) is an adjective meaning kind, friendly, gracious, or auspicious.  As a proper name it means "The Auspicious One", used as a euphemistic name for Rudra.  In simple English transliteration it is written either as Shiva or Siva. Pronunciation is written in the International Phonetic Alphabet as IPA: [ɕivə]. The adjective śiva meaning "auspicious" is used as an attributive epithet not particularly of Rudra, but of several other Vedic deities. In the Rig Veda, Indra uses this word to describe himself several times. (2:20:3, 6:45:17, 8:93:3)
> 
> In Tamil, Shiva literally means "the supreme one". Adi Sankara in his interpretation of the name Shiva, the 27th and 600th name of Vishnu sahasranama interprets Shiva to mean either "The Pure One", the One who is not affected by three Gunas of Prakrti, Sattva, Rajas and Tamas or "the One who purifies everyone by the very utterance of His name."  Swami Chinmayananda, in his translation of Vishnu sahasranama further elaborates on that verse: Shiva means the One who is eternally pure, or the One who can never have any contamination of the imperfection of Rajas and Tamas
> 
> ...







Note the trishul on figurine from Saraswati River basin?





Horned figure surrounded by bulls linked to Rudra from Harrapan artifact.


Raam isn't a Hindu avataar?  Then why is he listed in Gurbani as one of the das avataara?  He is as much an avataar as the other 9.  Either you accept they are Hindu or not, but I doubt anyone will be persuaded by this line of commentary which is pure opinion and not citing a single credible source.  This line of discussion is just like the games missionaries play to deliberately confuse without facts.  If we can't accept what Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas say about themselves, then we have no respect for Hindu religion and just distort again to the worst and ludicrous extremes to serve a political argument.



> The Srimad Bhagavata Purana is a chronicle of the various Avataras of Lord Vishnu. There are ten Avataras of Vishnu. The aim of every Avatara is to save the world from some great danger, to destroy the wicked and protect the virtuous. The ten Avataras are: Matsya (The Fish), Kurma (The Tortoise), Varaha (The Boar), Narasimha (The Man-Lion), Vamana (The Dwarf), Parasurama (Rama with the axe, the destroyer of the Kshatriya race), Ramachandra (the hero of the Ramayana—the son of Dasaratha, who destroyed Ravana), Sri Krishna, the teacher of the Gita, Buddha (the prince-ascetic, founder of Buddhism), and Kalki (the hero riding on a white horse, who is to come at the end of the Kali-Yuga).
> The Puranas



Don't you think it's interesting that Gurbani has the same teachings about purpose of das avtaara as does the Vaishnava Purana Srimad Bhagavtam?

Bhagat Kabir Ji and Sheikh Farid Ji are revered by Sikhs because Guruji elevated their writings to Gurbani.  They are not Sikhs simply because they did not live during time period of Guruji.  What has this to do with the many references to Shiva and Raam in Hindu scriptures?  That's like saying bhagat bani doesn't belong to Sikhism, even though it is in Gurbani.  So what is the point, and please cite your sources.  Or are you just making this up for diversion Namjap ji?


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2008)

Respected forum members, respected forum visitors. This was the opening question that started the thread we are now reading. Sikhism: An Offshoot of Hinduism. The thread starter asks a question. 



Sikh80 said:


> *
> After being here on SPN and going through the opinions of various members on The God and the creation,Karma, Liberation and allied concepts of sikhism It is not wrong to say that sikhism is just an ultra modern form of Hinduism or Vedantism.
> 
> I do not have in depth knowledge of both the religions but to me it appears that both the religions are same  there is superficial difference  created for purpose.
> ...



In my opinion, not always as humble as it should be, the answer is NO, Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism. For one thing Hinduism at the time of Guru Nanak did not exist as an "ism." Historically Hindus - to both spiritual masters of various Vedantic traditions and to Muslim and British overlords were anyone, who was not Muslim, who lived east of the Indus River in an area loosely termed "Hindustan." And therefore, in the Bani of Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh faith, "Hindus"  referred in particular to those non Muslims who were of the Brahman caste. Sikhism the religion or belief system then, logically, cannot be an offshoot of a demographic group or of a social caste. Even today, though Hinduism is described as the world's 3rd largest religion, there are those  "hindus" who would prefer to describe their religious beliefs using more descriptive language. 

Where does all the thread's exploration of history and philosophy leave those who are students of religion (but not Sikhs)? Where does all this conversation leave those who are new to Sikhism (and eagerly yearn for a deeper understanding of their chosen faith)? Where does all this leave young Gursikhs who also want answers to their questions? Was the question answered for them?

I want to take a different approach in the following post, to answer my own questions in a different way.


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2008)

Let's look at the question,  Is Sikhism an Offshoot of Hinduism, from the perspective of a Muslim from the time of Nanak. This may be a crazy approach, but maybe I can  make my conclusion clear a different way. This passage is from Chapter I of *The Sikh Religion* by Macauliffe. It is the first literary work in which Sikhism is described as a distinct and unique religion. 

The Sikh Religion - Volume I


   After three days the Guru came forth from the forest. The people thought he had been drowned in the neighbouring river; and how had he returned to life? He then went home, and gave all that he had to the poor. A great crowd assembled, and Nawab Daulat Khan, the Governor, also came. He inquired what had happened to Nanak, but received no reply. Understanding, however, that the Guru's acts were the result of his abandonment of this world, the Governor felt sad, said it was a great pity, and went home.

 It was the general belief at this time that Nanak was, possessed with an evil spirit, and a Mulla or Muhammadan priest was summoned to exorcise it. The Mulla began to write an amulet to hang round Nanak's neck. While the Mulla was writing Nanak uttered the following:--

   When the field is spoiled where is the harvest heap?
Cursed are the lives of those who write God's name and sell it.

   The Mulla, paying no attention to Nanak's serious objurgation, continued the ceremony of exorcism and finally addressed the supposed evil spirit, 'Who art thou?' The following reply issued from Nanak's mouth:--

   Some say poor Nanak is a sprite, some say that he is a demon,
Others again that he is a man.

   Those who were present then concluded that Nanak was not possessed, but had become insane.
 On hearing this Nanak ordered Mardana to play the rebeck and continued the stanza:--

 Simpleton Nanak hath become mad upon the Lord.[1]
And knoweth none other than God.
When one is mad with the fear of God,
And recognizeth none other than the one God,
He is known as mad when he doeth this one thing--
When he obeyeth the Master's order--in what else is there wisdom?
When man loveth the Lord and deemeth himself worthless,
And the rest of the world good, he is called mad.[2]

   After this, Guru Nanak donned a religious costume and associated constantly with religious men. He remained silent for one day, and the next he uttered the pregnant announcement, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.' The Sikhs interpret this to mean generally that both Hindus and Muhammadans had forgotten the precepts of their religions. On a complaint made by the Nawab's Qazi, or expounder of Muhammadan law, the Guru was summoned before Daulat Khan to give an explanation of his words. He refused to go, saying, 'What have I to do with your Khan?' The Guru was again called a madman. His mind was full of his mission, and whenever he spoke be merely said, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.' The Qazi was not slow to make another representation to the Governor on the impropriety of Nanak's utterance. Upon this the Governor sent for him. A footman went and told the Guru that the Governor had requested him to come to him. Then Guru Nanak stood up and went to the Governor. The Governor addressed him, 'Nanak, it is my misfortune that such an officer as thou should have become a faqir.' The Governor then seated him beside him, and directed his Qazi to ask, now that Nanak was in conversational mood, the meaning of his utterance. The Qazi became thoughtful, and smiled. He then asked Nanak, 'What hath happened to thee, that   thou sayest there is no Hindu and no Musalman?

 The Guru, not being engaged in controversy with Hindus at the time, gave no answer to the first part of the question. In explanation of his statement that there was no Musalman he uttered the following:--

   To be[1] a Musalman is difficult; if one be really so, then one may be called a Musalman.
Let one first love the religion of saints,[2] and put aside pride and pelf[3] as the file _removeth rust_.
Let him accept the religion of his pilots, and dismiss anxiety regarding death or life;[4]
Let him heartily obey the will of God, worship the Creator, and efface himself--
When he is kind to all men, then Nanak, shall he be indeed a Musalman.[5]

   The Qazi then put further questions to the Guru. The Guru called on Mardana to play the rebeck, and sang to it the following replies and instructions adapted for Muhammadans:--

   Make kindness thy mosque, sincerity thy prayer-carpet, what is just and lawful thy Quran,
Modesty thy circumcision, civility thy fasting, so shalt thou be a Musalman;
Make right conduct thy Kaaba,[6] truth thy spiritual guide, good works thy creed and thy prayer,
The will of God thy rosary, and God will preserve thine honour, O Nanak


   Nanak, let others' goods[1] be to thee as swine _to the Musalman_ and kine _to the Hindu_;[2]
Hindu and Musalman spiritual teachers will go bail for thee if thou eat not carrion.[3]
Thou shalt not go to heaven by lip service; it is by the practice of truth thou shalt be delivered.
Unlawful food will not become lawful by putting spices[4] therein.
Nanak, from false words only falsehood can be obtained.
There are five prayers, five times for prayer, and five names for them[5]--
The first should be truth, the second what is right, the third charity in God's name,
The fourth good intentions, the fifth the praise and glory of God.
If thou make good works the creed thou repeatest, thou shalt be a Musalman.
They who are false, O Nanak, shall only obtain what is altogether false.

   The Qazi became astonished at being thus lectured. Prayers had become to him a matter of idle lip-repetition of Arabic texts, while his mind was occupied with his worldly affairs.

 It was now the time for afternoon prayer. The whole company, including Nanak, went to the mosque. Up rose the Qazi and began the service. The Guru looked towards him and laughed in his face. When prayer was over, the Qazi complained to the Nawab of Nanak's conduct. The Guru said he had laughed because the Qazi's prayer was not accepted of God. The Qazi asked Nanak to state the reason for his conclusion. The Guru replied that immediately before prayer the Qazi had unloosed a new-born filly. While he ostensibly performed divine service, he remembered there was a well in the enclosure, and his mind was filled with apprehension lest the filly should fall into it. His heart was therefore not in his devotions. The Guru informed the Nawab also that while he was pretending to pray, he was thinking of purchasing horses in Kabul. Both admitted the truth of the Guru's statements, said he was favoured of God, and fell at his feet. The Guru then uttered the following:--

   He is a Musalman who effaceth himself,
Who maketh truth and contentment his holy creed,
Who neither toucheth what is standing, nor eateth what hath fallen--
Such a Musalman shall go to Paradise.

   The whole company of Musalmans at the capital--the descendants of the Prophet, the tribe of shaikhs,[l] the qazi, the muftis,[2] and the Nawab himself, were all amazed at Nanak's words. The Muhammadans then asked the Guru to tell them of the power and authority of his God, and how salvation could be obtained. Upon this the Guru addressed them as follows:--

   At God's gate there dwell thousands of Muhammads, thousands of Brahmas, of Vishnus, and of Shivs;[3]
Thousands upon thousands of exalted Rams,[4] thousands of spiritual guides, thousands of religious garbs;
   Thousands upon thousands of celibates, true men, and Sanyasis;[1]
Thousands upon thousands of Gorakhs,[2] thousands upon thousands of superiors of Jogis;
Thousands upon thousands of men sitting in attitudes of contemplation, gurus, and their disciples who make supplications;
Thousands upon thousands of goddesses and gods, thousands of demons;
Thousands upon thousands of Muhammadan priests, prophets, spiritual leaders, thousands upon thousands of qazis, mullas, and shaikhs--
None of them obtaineth peace of mind without the instruction of the true guru.
How many hundreds of thousands of sidhs[3] and strivers,[4] yea, countless and endless!
All are impure without meditating on the word of the true guru.
There is one Lord over all spiritual lords, the Creator whose name is true.
Nanak, His worth cannot be ascertained; He is endless and incalculable.[5]

   It is said that Daulat Khan, the Musalman ruler, on hearing this sublime hymn, fell at Guru Nanak's feet. The people admitted that God was speaking through Nanak's mouth, and that it was useless to catechize him further. The Nawab, in an outburst   of affectionate admiration, offered him a sacrifice of his authority and estate. Nanak, however, was in no need of temporal possessions, and went again into the society of religious men. They too offered him their homage, and averred that he was desirous of the truth and abode in its performance. Nanak replied:--

   My beloved, this body, first steeped in the base of worldliness,[1] hath taken the dye of avarice.
My beloved, such robe[2] pleaseth not my Spouse; How can woman thus dressed go to His couch?
I am a sacrifice, O Benign One, I am a sacrifice unto Thee.
I am a sacrifice unto those who repeat Thy name.
Unto those who repeat Thy name I am ever a sacrifice.
Were this body, my beloved friends, to become a dyer's vat, the Name to be put into it as madder,
And the Lord the Dyer to dye therewith, such colour had never been seen.
O my beloved, the Bridegroom is with those whose robes are _thus_ dyed.
Nanak's prayer is that he may obtain the dust of such persons' feet.
God Himself it is who decketh, it is He who dyeth, it is He who looketh with the eye of favour.
Nanak, if the bride be pleasing to the Bridegroom, he will enjoy her of his own accord.[3]

   Upon this the faqirs kissed the Guru's feet, the Governor also came, and all the people, both Hindu and Musalman, attended to salute and take final leave of him.  The story continues.


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2008)

Some thoughts, sangat ji!

First of all who was Macauliffe? Was he a legitimate candidate to write about Sikhism? 

A little about him; Michael MacAuliffe, also known as Max Arthur Macauliffe was a senior British administrator, prolific scholar and author. Macauliffe is renowned for his translation into English of Sikh scripture and history. The translations you read below are by Macauliffe. MacAuliffe entered the Indian Civil Service in 1862, and arrived in the Punjab in February 1864. He was appointed Deputy Commissioner of the Punjab in 1882, and a Divisional Judge in 1884. He retired from the Indian Civil Service in 1893. MacAuliffe wrote the definitive English translation of the Sacred Book of the Sikh religion, the Guru Granth Sahib. He also wrote The Sikh Religion: its Gurus, Sacred Writings and Authors (six volumes, Oxford University Press, 1909). He was assisted in his works by Pratap Singh Giani, a Sikh scholar. Macauliffe went on to convert to Sikhism in the 1860s and was even derided by his British employers for having "turned a Sikh"His personal assistant remarked in his memoirs that on his death bed, Macauliffe could be heard reciting the Sikh morning prayer, Japji, ten minutes before passing away.

I have copied this from Max Arthur Macauliffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can read more at this link. My point in introducing the biography of Macauliffe is only to stress, that he, the Sikh scholars who assisted him, and the British administrators who ridiculed him, thought of Sikhism as a unique religion and something completely distinguishable from "Hinduism" as long ago as the mid 19th Century. 

Macauliffe "converted" to Sikhism. It is doubtful that he would have been moved to be a convert if he were uncertain of his choice. He must have known that he was making a clear and deliberate choice to be a Sikh -- as opposed to a follower of one or another Vedantic panth.

Macauliffe wrote:

_I BRING from the East what is practically an unknown religion. The Sikhs are distinguished throughout the world as a great military people, but there is little known even to professional scholars regarding their religion. I have often been asked by educated persons in countries which I have visited, and even in India itself, what the Sikh religion was, and whether the Sikhs were Hindus, idolaters or Muhammadans. This ignorance is the result of the difficulty of the Indian dialects in which their sacred writings are contained._


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2008)

Now to the matter of Nanak who in his inimitable way shakes the foundations of how we think about God. 

Nanak has just emerged from a deep spiritual experience in the forest, and this happens. 

After this, Guru Nanak donned a religious costume and associated constantly with religious men. He remained silent for one day, and the next he uttered the pregnant announcement, 'There is no *Hindu and no Musalman. We have heard this before.

*The Sikhs interpret (at the time of Macauliffe's writing) this to mean generally that both Hindus and Muhammadans had forgotten the precepts of their religions. 

On a complaint made by the Nawab's Qazi, or expounder of Muhammadan law, the Guru was summoned before Daulat Khan to give an explanation of his words. He refused to go, saying, 'What have I to do with your Khan?' The Guru was again called a madman. His mind was full of his mission, and whenever he spoke be merely said, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.'

The next part of the story focuses upon Muslims only

*To be a Musalman is difficult; if one be really so, then one may be called a Musalman.
Let one first love the religion of saints,and put aside pride and pelf as the file removeth rust.
Let him accept the religion of his pilots, and dismiss anxiety regarding death or life;
Let him heartily obey the will of God, worship the Creator, and efface himself--
When he is kind to all men, then Nanak, shall he be indeed a Musalman.

*The seeds of the message of Guruji can be found already in this early teaching of Nanak I. Nanak then goes on and develops his radical argument, and takes some political risks in the process.

   Make kindness thy mosque, sincerity thy prayer-carpet, what is just and lawful thy Quran,
Modesty thy circumcision, civility thy fasting, so shalt thou be a Musalman;
Make right conduct thy Kaaba,[6] truth thy spiritual guide, good works thy creed and thy prayer,
The will of God thy rosary, and God will preserve thine honour, O Nanak


   Nanak, let others' goods be to thee as swine _to the Musalman_ and kine _to the Hindu_;
Hindu and Musalman spiritual teachers will go bail for thee if thou eat not carrion.
Thou shalt not go to heaven by lip service; it is by the practice of truth thou shalt be delivered.
Unlawful food will not become lawful by putting spices therein.
Nanak, from false words only falsehood can be obtained.
There are five prayers, five times for prayer, and five names for them-
*The first should be truth, the second what is right, the third charity in God's name,
The fourth good intentions, the fifth the praise and glory of God*.
If thou make good works the creed thou repeatest, thou shalt be a Musalman.
They who are false, O Nanak, shall only obtain what is altogether false.

And then,

*He is a Musalman who effaceth himself,
Who maketh truth and contentment his holy creed,
Who neither toucheth what is standing, nor eateth what hath fallen--
Such a Musalman shall go to Paradise.*

What about Hindus, then? What does Nanak say?

At God's gate there dwell thousands of Muhammads, thousands of Brahmas, of Vishnus, and of Shivs;[3]
Thousands upon thousands of exalted Rams,[4] thousands of spiritual guides, thousands of religious garbs;
   Thousands upon thousands of celibates, true men, and Sanyasis; 
Thousands upon thousands of Gorakhs, thousands upon thousands of superiors of Jogis;
Thousands upon thousands of men sitting in attitudes of contemplation, gurus, and their disciples who make supplications;
Thousands upon thousands of goddesses and gods, thousands of demons;
Thousands upon thousands of Muhammadan priests, prophets, spiritual leaders, thousands upon thousands of qazis, mullas, and shaikhs--
*None of them obtaineth peace of mind without the instruction of the true guru.*
How many hundreds of thousands of sidhs  and strivers, yea, countless and endless!
*All are impure without meditating on the word of the true guru.*
*
There is one Lord over all spiritual lords, the Creator whose name is true.
Nanak, His worth cannot be ascertained; He is endless and incalculable.*

Nanak takes his audience then, and us today, to a new level of comprehension of the nature of God. God does not emanate from the "spriitual lords" He is one Lord over all spiritual lords, and all of creation. He has no intermediaries. So Nanak is not proclaiming a *pantheistic *understanding of god, but one that is essentially and fundamentally *theistic, *a god who is _pooran,_ whose attributes cannot be counted, whose nature is inexhaustible, who is True and exists in spite of His Creation. 

So Nanak Dev ji  concludes, 

My beloved, this body, first steeped in the base of worldliness, hath taken the dye of avarice.
My beloved, such robe pleaseth not my Spouse; How can woman thus dressed go to His couch?
*I am a sacrifice, O Benign One, I am a sacrifice unto Thee.*
*I am a sacrifice unto those who repeat Thy name.
Unto those who repeat Thy name I am ever a sacrifice*.
Were this body, my beloved friends, to become a dyer's vat, the Name to be put into it as madder,
And the Lord the Dyer to dye therewith, such colour had never been seen.
O my beloved, the Bridegroom is with those whose robes are _thus_ dyed.
*Nanak's prayer is that he may obtain the dust of such persons' feet*.
God Himself it is who decketh, it is He who dyeth, it is He who looketh with the eye of favour.
Nanak, if the bride be pleasing to the Bridegroom, he will enjoy her of his own accord.

The Guru makes a sacrifice of Himself. *This is also very different.* Neither Hindu nor Muslim.


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2008)

And here is something very interesting written by Macauliffe in his Preface to *The Sikh Religion *

To sum up some of the moral and political merits of the Sikh religion: It prohibits idolatry, hypocrisy, caste exclusiveness, the concremation of widows, the immurement of women, the use of wine and other intoxicants, tobacco-smoking, infanticide, slander, pilgrimages to the sacred rivers and tanks of the Hindus; and it inculcates loyalty, gratitude for all favours received, philanthropy, justice, impartiality, truth, honesty, and all the moral and domestic virtues known to the holiest citizens of any country.
_
Macaulife wrote in the 19th Century...
_ 

 A movement to declare the Sikhs Hindus, in direct opposition to the teaching of the Gurus, is widespread and of long duration. I have only quite recently met in Lahore young men claiming to be descendants of the Gurus, who told me that they were Hindus, and that they could not read the characters in which the sacred books of the Sikhs were written. Whether the object of their tutors and advisers was or was not to make them disloyal, such youths are ignorant of the Sikh religion, and of its prophecies favour of the English, and contract exclusive social customs and prejudices to the extent of calling *us* Malechhas, or persons of impure desires, and inspiring disgust for the customs and habits of Christians.


_So what are we discussing today? Why?
 
_bRhm mhys isD muin ieMdRw byAMq Twkur qyrI giq nhI pweI ]1] 
_barahm mahays siDh mun indraa bay-ant thaakur tayree gat nahee paa-ee. ||1|| 
_Even Brahma, Shiva, the Siddhas and the silent sages do not know Your State, O Infinite Lord and Master. ||1||


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## Astroboy (Jul 30, 2008)

> Brahmin literature, perhaps you mean Brahman Upanishads? Surely you realize there are Shiva Sutras as well? The earlier name for Shiva is Rudra, and Rudra is one of the principal deities recognizable in artifacts from Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro. So to try to make Shiva out as invalid and non-Hindu deity is rather far-fetched.
> 
> I don't really get what you're trying to get at by saying Shiva was never a Hindu (people of the land of Indus Valley) deity by calling as Dakshina Murthy. Lol. Remember not to interpret Hinduism according to Abrahamic viewpoint which degrades individual deities into competing personalities, or false sub-deities jostling for Supremacy with the One True God.
> 
> Rather see this whole philosophy as human minds grasping the Magnificence of the Divine One in many individual aspects which are related, in the form of superimpositions. Shiva is in fact another form of the nirgun Oneness. Gurbani says Shiva and Shakti are the union of consciousness and matter in all beings. So how can Shiva NOT belong to Vedanta?


I have no intentions to put you in a corner, Harjas Ji, by the temptation to do so is definitely there. 
Aad Ji, more diplomatic approach is the preferred choice. 
Just so that you also are able to see my point of view more clearly, here are excerpts of a slide I compiled 2 years ago.
 Sorry the pics are not transfering but without these pics, the story is only half told:-

*Dravidian India" 
by T.R. Sesha Iyengar, Madras, 1925, 
  Asian Educational Services,
   31 Hauz Khas Village,
  New Delhi 110016, 1995 reprint, Rs. 265 
ISBN: 81-206-0135-1.

He describes the Dravidian origin of Brahmanism and the major Indian gods. 
  Of course, mainstream scholarship has now come around to the view that Shiva, Vishnu and his incarnations, are of Dravidian origin. But in the early 20th century, that was not the case. 

* 

*Prakrit Origin of Mahabharata*

*Iyengar was one of the earliest to realize that the legends in the*
* Vaishnava and Shaiva literature were originally composed in Prakrit *
*and only much later translated into Sanskrit.*

*"J.Kirste in his article on the Mahabharata question contributed to the Indian Antiquary, Vol.31, expresses the view that, when Pushyamitra killed the last of the Maurya kings, Brihadratha, in 183 BC, the Brahmanas re-established their ancient ascendancy, and the deline of the Buddhist religion followed. *

*During this period, the Brahmanas collected all the legends of Vaishnavitic and Saivitic stamp into one large work, translating them, at the same time, from Prakrit into {p.6} Sanskrit. This was handed down orally till the second century AD, and then reduced to writing.*

*Megalithic Structures*
*Iyengar was fascinated with the constructors of the Megalithic structures so universal throughout **India**. He notes, "A large mound near Chingleput is surrounded by a number of megalithic graves, and believed to have been inhabited by a bearded race of `Pandayar'. *

*Regarding the Araikandanallur pagoda, he writes, "The Araikandanallur [ftn. see Indian Antiquary Vol.5] pagoda near Tirukoilur is a striking object built on a rock, and is remarkable on account of the existence five singular cells cut in the solid rock, where local traditions say the five Pandavas lived during their exile. In one of the structures were found some fragments of bones and some scraps of iron. There is ground for presuming that these structures were used as burial places." *
*(Iyengar 1925, p.50) *

*ANCIENT remains of a sunken city first discovered by a team of Dorset-based explorers have been revealed by the force of the Asian tsunami, say archaeologists.
Bournemouth's Daily Echo reports that divers and scientists, led by explorer Monty Halls, made the spectacular find of a lost civilisation off the coast of southern **India** three years ago.*

*Divers from **India** and **England** made the discovery based on the statements of local fishermen and the old Indian legend of the Seven Pagodas. *

*Dravidian Basis of Sanskrit*
*Iyengar fully accepted the immense contribution of Dravidian languages to Sanskrit. Thus, he notes, "The non-Sanskrit portion of the Dravidian languages exceeds the Sanskrit portion." (Iyengar 1925, p.70)*
* He continues, "Tamil is not dependant on Sanskrit for the full expression of thought. The ancient or classical dialect of this language, the Sen Tamil, is almost entirely free from Sanskrit words and idioms. The finest works in Tamil, such as the Kural, are original in design and execution, and also almost independant of Sanskrit." *
*(Iyengar 1925, p.71) *

*"That our view of South India being the probable home of civilization is not entirely a baseless fabric of a dream receives support from Dr. Chatterji who says, `It would be established,' provided Hall's theory of Sumerian origins be true, `that civilization first arose in India, and was associated probably with the primitive Dravidians. Then it was taken to **Mesopotamia** to become the source of the Babylonian and other ancient cultures which form the basis of modern civilization." (Iyengar 1925, p.59) *

*According to Sir John Evans [ftn. Presidential Address of the British Association, 1897- Science of Man, Aug. 1901], **Southern  India** was probably the cradle of the human race.... The people who have for many ages occupied this portion of the peninsula are a great people influencing the world, not much perhaps by moral and intellectual attributes, but to a much greater extent by superior physical qualities. [ftn. Dr. C. Macleane's Manual of Administration of the **Madras** Presidency] " (Iyengar 1925, p.60) *

*An examination of the Sumerian language in the texts transliterated and translated within the last few years reveals such close correspondences in the lexical structure and grammar that in all likelihood Sumerian is the PSDr. Furthermore on the basis of some linguistic and literary evidences it can be argued that Sumerian is in fact the Tamil of the First Cankam and that Sumeru, the cradle of human civilisation is none other than Kumari, the cradle of Dravidian civilisation." (Loganathan 1975, p.40) *

*"It was proved years ago by Dr. Taylor that a Tamiloid language, now represented by its most cultivated branch in the South, constituted the original staple of all the languages of **India**. The existence of a Tamilian substratum in all the modern dialects of India and of the profound influence, which the classical Tamil has exercised on the formation and development of both the Vedic and the classical Sanskrit, is gradually coming to be recognised by students of Indian philology. [ftn. Origin of the word Arya - Tamby Pillai, Tamilian Antiquary, Vol.II, No.2 ]" (Iyengar 1925, p.78) *

*"Agastya is said to have learnt Tamil, the language of the South, from Siva. From this it may be inferred that Siva was a Dravidian deity. [ftn.  The Dravidian Element in Indian Culture,' by Dr. Glibert Slater, see p.108 ] Dr. Gilbert Slater {p.101} says that the fact that the Rig Veda refers to phallic worship with disapproval, seems to point to the establishment of the worship of Siva among the Dravidians before the Vedic period. To the Tamil every hill-top is sacred to the gods. Siva, the lord of the Dravidians, was Malai-Arasan (Mountain Chief) according to Dr. Oppert. Siva came to be known in later times as Dakshinamurthy, ie the God of the South." (Iyengar 1925, p.100-101) *


*The discovery of a late Tamil Sangam age*
* temple 50 km from Chennai *
*strengthens the view that a string *
*of Seven Pagodas existed along the Mamallapuram coast. *
*The Atiranachandesvara Cave Temple, popularly known as the Tiger Cave and which is located 2 km ahead of the Shore Temple, has two temples: the one on the southern side resembles a tiger's head and has bas relief of elephants, and the one on the northern side has a Sivalingam.* 

*The inscription on the second pillar, belonging to the reign of Nandivarman III, spoke about a Kirarpiriyan of Mamallapuram, who donated 10 kazhanchu of gold to that temple. The interest that accrued from the gifted gold was to be used by the ooraar (residents of the village) and sabaiyar to celebrate a festival during the Tamil month of Kaarthigai. This pillar has a carving of a trishul (trident) on one side. *

*Another important evidence is noted: 
"Dr. Stevenson [2.Siddhanta Dipika, Vol.IV, p.108 ] 
was the first to point out that Siva is not named at all
 in the ancient hymns of the Vedas." (Iyengar 1925, p.105) *





ISBN: 81-206-0135-1.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 30, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I can prove parallels with Vaishnav scriptures


 
I think there in lies the problem. Like Islamists, Christians and other groups who have debated this isssue, they too claim paralleles with their own faith.

I think if you dig deep enough you can prove parallells with any faith.

2 + 2 does not equal 5


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## spnadmin (Jul 30, 2008)

Sikh Philosophy Network asks that the diversity of religious points of view be respected. Respecting the identity of Sikhism, its history, and its unique philosophical and ethical beliefs must likewise be respected. After 24 hours of serious discussion by forum leaders, our opinion was that respect for Sikh identity had not been maintained. Our  decision therefore was to close the thread.

Be cautioned that wherever and whenever in the forum this occurs again, same thread will be closed without notice. 

Sat Sri Akaal,
Antonia


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## KulwantK (Aug 13, 2008)

Thank you.  After looking over this very long thread it is indeed best to be closed.


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## LatteLily (Feb 28, 2009)

If that Christian Missionary truely read the Guru teachings, they would understand that there in only ONE GOD, and, One God, only.  Christianity and Sikhism have many similarities, the only difference is the ignorances of people who do not truely know One God.


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