# Wake Up Call To Sikhs !



## FireStorm (Jul 16, 2004)

Press Release Dated 12th July 2004

AN INVITATION TO SIKHS AND HINDUS TO EMBRACE THE TRUTH

RALLY FOR ISLAM (IX) IN TRAFALGAR SQUARE - SUNDAY JULY 25TH – 1PM – 6PM – ALL WELCOME…

Hundreds of Muslims from across the UK are set to converge in London’s Trafalgar Square on the 25th of July for the Annual Rally for Islam. This year will be the 9th anniversary of the rally and promises to be the best yet. The British public will once again witness many non-Muslims: previously Jews, Christians, Hindus & Sikhs (idol worshippers), Atheists, Socialists etc giving up their false beliefs and ideologies in order to embrace the divine way of life which Islam offers to them openly and publicly. Debates and Discussions on the inimitability of the Qur’an and the finality of the Message (of Islam) from God through the Messenger Muhammad (saw) will be held, with an invitation for all present to either refute Islam or accept its superiority. The speakers will also set out to present Islam as the only real future for Britain and indeed the World in terms of maintaining Honesty, Home-land Security, Morality, Mental well being, Family protection, continued scientific and material progress, psychological health as well as providing a comprehensive code for humanity to live their life by. 

The Square will also host a number of Marquees presenting various aspects of Islam such as its unique economic system able to solve the problems of inflation, the hoarding of wealth and the fair distribution of resources - Islam’s unique social system which eradicates the exploitation of the sexes and eliminates promiscuity, pornography and <admin-profanity filter activated> deviancy and Islam’s ruling system based upon the concept of sovereignty for God alone, where man is not a dictator (like Bush or Blair) but rather God’s trustee on Earth managing mankind’s affairs according to God’s infallible law...etc...

Here is a message to all the Sikhs and Hindus; put your pride to one side and accept the Truth. Yes, Islam, the religion that you detest the most is really the only religion that will help you when you leave this life.

To the Hindu’s; forget the caste system and all the fuss about reincarnation and accept the fact that everybody is equal in the eyes of God and all will be accounted on the Day of Judgement. As for the Sikhs, acknowledge, that as a man-made system your belief is really just a hotpot of different religions and opinions “jumbled together”.

The fierce disagreements between Muslims and Hindu’s have been going since the advent of Islam.

Historically, the effect of Islam in the Indian sub-continent region was instant. Its emphasis on One God corrected many of the social issues and “mystical” beliefs associated with Hinduism at the time. The caste system was seen in its true nature; a racist structure geared to preserve the rich over the poor. Islam offered those at the bottom of the organization a way of being equal and simultaneously having a belief system that fitted naturally with the human self.

The Hindu tradition of worshipping idols was (and still is) seen as a major act of ignorance, as creation can never worship creation, particularly when there is a Creator who has designed and established everything from apples to zebras. Also, the heavy emphasis on superstition places the individual under much stress in his daily life. Islam in comparison has no place for false notions as everything is under the control of Almighty God therefore dismissing any talk of good or bad luck.

As mentioned, Islam corrected the numerous inadequacies Hinduism imposed on society; thus impressing on intellectuals such as Guru Nanak (the founder of Sikhism) that the religion of Muhammad (saw) was in fact the truth. However, Nanak could not accept Islam in its entirety so chose just the key features that favoured him and the people.

However, because Sikhism is man-made it has many weaknesses, all Sikhs must ponder the following: Firstly, the religion lacks depth and is easily brainwashed by more dominant systems. Hinduism still has a great influence on the Sikhs as the caste system highlight – the idea that everyone is equal in the eyes of God is rarely practised by the Sikhs, as inter-caste marriage is still a taboo subject. Secondly, Nanak made no claims to divinity or to kinship with God and did not want to be worshipped as a kind of prophet (K.Singh, 1953). But, today many Sikhs do this by hanging a picture of Nanak and directing their prayers towards it. Thirdly, unlike Islam where the doctrine has stood firm for over 1400 years, Sikhism has evolved; taking in new directions with every new Guru. Key elements of the religion have been dramatically altered such as the treatment of the dead; in Nanak’s time they were buried whereas today they are cremated. Surely, these facts that are just a scratch on the surface emphasise the lack of Divinity found in this belief.

Islam offers the individual and society peace, happiness and security as everybody acknowledges his and her Creator, Allah (swt). All the problems that man faces are not sorted out via various mystical ritual acts but through having Trust in Allah (swt). Islam is the religion for the whole of Mankind, whether somebody comes from Africa, Asia or Europe. Furthermore, the love of money, which is so rife in both Hinduism and Sikhism, forcing some people to be treated or considered insignificant because they do not have the latest BMW or Mercedes, is considered unimportant in Islam. The good deeds of an individual in this life and worthwhile actions that are not motivated by economic reasons will help the Believer to attain blissful happiness in Paradise. 

The Seal of Messengers, Prophet Mohammad (saw) said that at the lowest level of Paradise each person will have up to 10,000 servants! Another saying of the Holy Prophet (saw) was in relation to the love of this life to the Hereafter. He said (saw) the material life of this world is like a drop of water whereas all the delights in the next life are equivalent to the Ocean.

So, the message to any Sikh and Hindu is do your research and ask yourself "are you Sikh or Hindu because you really want to be or is it because your parents are". Remember, on the Day of Judgment, no religion will be accepted from Allah except Islam. Come to Trafalgar Square on the 25th July 2004 and give up your false beliefs and accept the perfect and embrace Deen of Al-Islam.

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” [EMQ 3:85]


Al-Muhajiroun
The Voice, The Eyes & The Ears of Muslims


P.O. Box 349 London N9 7RR
07956 600 569 or 07956 572 162 – Fax: 0208 803 4541 - Internet: www.muhajiroun.com


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## BabbarSher (Jul 16, 2004)

Response to Muslim Propaganda from Sikh Scholar Gurmukh Singh. 

This is a most regrettable, irresponsible, provocative
and bigoted nonsense from Al-Muhajiroun, UK.

Ludicrous statements like the following do much damage
to Islam.

> The Seal of Messengers, Prophet Mohammad (saw)
> said that at the lowest level of Paradise each
> person will have up to 10,000 servants!

The author's challenge is:

> So, the message to any Sikh and Hindu is do your
> research and ask yourself "are you Sikh or Hindu
> because you really want to be or is it because
> your parents are". Remember, on the Day of
> Judgment, no religion will be accepted from
> Allah except Islam. Come to Trafalgar Square on
> the 25th July 2004 and give up your false beliefs
> and accept the perfect and embrace Deen of
> Al-Islam.

Let us do some research into this "Deen of Al-Islam"

The research says:
PLEASE DO GIVE YOUR REAL SCHOLARS AT LEAST A FIGHTING
CHANCE TO SAVE YOUR FAITH IN THE 21ST CENTURY! WE ARE
EVEN PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE MOST LIBERAL
INTERPRETATION OF YOUR RELIGIOUS METAPHOR AND
ALLEGORY! NOW READ ON:

Let us start "In the Name of the Allah, the Merciful,
the Compassionate" :

Is this the religion being compared with Sikhism?

(GGS= Guru Granth Sahib HQ = Holy Quran SM=Sahih
Muslim by Abdul Hamid Sadiqi Lahore SB= Sahih Bukhari
Sharif Ishait-al-Islam Delhi)

Is this "Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate"??
Slavery is permitted in Islam (HQ 4:3). Bilal was
Prophet Muhammad's slave and the Prophet's cousin
Zubair (son of Abu Bakar) had 1000 slaves. A Muslim,
who emancipates a Muslim slave, Allah saves every limb
of his from fire for every limb of the slave, even his
private parts for him" (SM 3604 SB 693V.3 B.46)).
Islam does not condemn slavery.

Slavery is not condoned in Sikhism in any form
whatsoever. Indeed the Guru proclaimed in no uncertain
terms:
"The Gracious Lord has now decreed, "None shall
oppress or inflict pain on another. All shall abide in
peace as the regime shall be compassionate." 
(GGS p.74)

Islamic treatment of women and view about sex etc: A
woman's testimony (Shahadah) has half the weight of a
man's (HQ 2: 282, 4:177). When inheritance is to be
shared "A male is equal to the portion of two
females."(SM 3933 HQ4: 177) A man can divorce his wife
by simply saying "Talaaq, talaaq, talaaq" three times
(HQ 2:229-230,SM 3491-93).

Adultery and pornication are punishable in Islam but
not if committed with women captured in war (SM 3234).
A Muslim can also beat his wife (SM, Trimidhi and HQ
4:34). If a slave girl commits adultery she should be
lashed. If she does it thrice then she should be sold
even for a hair rope.(SB 362,435,731 V.3 B.46) Talaaq
literally means, "undoing the knot". A man cannot
marry the same woman twice until she has married
another man and divorced him (Ihya 2:230). "The
proportion of rights and powers between male and
female, as laid down by Islam, naturally demand that
out of the two parties only the former should be
entitled to pronounce divorce" (Maulana Moududi quoted
in CIS page 110)

"Islam allows the conversion of female slaves into
concubines with whom <admin-profanity filter activated> relations 
are legitimate
without the necessity of marriage. Once they have been
allotted to their masters they become their property"
(Maulana Moududi quoted in CIS page 112 Also see HQ
4-3) (SM 3432-34)". The Prophet's wife Safia (wife of
Kinana) was a captive at the battle of Khaibar. So
were Rihana and Juwariya (SM 4292 Also see Sirat Rasul
Allah pages 493 and 517)

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save
those (captives) whom your right hand possesses. It is
a decree of Allah for you" (HQ 4:24)

"Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may
seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would
preserve their chastity. And if one forces them, then
Allah, after their compulsion, is All-forgiving,
All-compassionate " HQ 24:33.

"Islam allows the conversion of female slaves into
concubines with whom <admin-profanity filter activated> relations 
are legitimate
without the necessity of marriage. Once they have been
allotted to their masters they become their property"
(Maulana Moududi quoted in CIS page 112 Also see HQ
4-3) (SM 3432-34)"

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save
those (captives) whom your right hand possesses. It is
a decree of Allah for you" (HQ 4:24)

Islam defines different rights and responsibilities of
men and women. 

"Men are in charge of women because Allah hath made
the one to excel the other and because they spend
their property (for the support of women)"(HQ4: 34).

Polygamy is permissible and allows up to four women
(HQ 4:3). The Quran instructs "you will not be able to
deal equally between (your) wives however much ye wish
to do so but turn not altogether away (from one)
leaving her as in suspense." (HQ 4: 129). A woman is
entitled to a dowry (mehar) and a lawful maintenance
(nafqah) but the domination of a husband is paramount,
"Your women are like a tilth for you (to cultivate),
go unto your tilth as ye will"(HQ 2:223 SM 3363). "Had
it not been for Eve, women would never have acted
unfaithfully towards their husbands."(SM 3471)
However, "Thy women have rights similar to those (of
men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above
them"(HQ 2: 228). "As for those from whom ye fear
rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds
apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek
not a way against them."(HQ 4:34-35). "Serving a
husband is obligatory since her husband is named her
master in Allah's Book and she is a captive with him
as is shown in the Sunnah of Allah's
Messenger"(Adaab-uz-Zufaaf by Muhammad Nasir-ud-din
page 47). " As for those of your women who are guilty
of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them.
And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation),
then confine them to the houses until death take them
or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through the
new legislation)"(HQ 4:15) Accoring to Islam " Never
will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their
ruler" (SB 219 V.9 B.88). "No lady should travel on a
journey of two days except with her husband or a
Dhi-Mahram"(SB 215 V3 B31)

Islamic dress for women
There are no restrictions on what men wear. Burqa or
Hijab is a contraption used by the Muslim women to
keep their bodies covered except for the eyes (HQ
33:59, 24:31). Sharia requires women to dress up with
clothes meeting the following criteria
(Adaab-uz-Zufaaf page30).

1. The whole body must be covered except for the oval
of the face and the two hands.
2. The material of the cloth must not be decorative.
3. The material must be thick enough to be opaque.
4. The dress must be loose enough as not to make clear
the shape of the 
body.
5. A woman must never wear perfume in public.
6. The dress must not resemble the dress worn by men.
7. The dress must not resemble that worn by
disbelieving women.
8. The dress must not be ostentatious.


Sikhism treats women as equal to men and forbids
adultery or beating of women in any situation. "Like
the companionship of a poisonous snake is the desire
of another's woman"(GGS P.403). Ill treatment of women
captured in war is strictly forbidden. This is what we
read about Sardar Sham Singh Attariwala, "It was
disorder, anarchy and confusion in Punjab, they moved
from Malwa to Majha. Just before settling at Attari
and the process of establishing their control they
came across a helpless Muhammadan bride of the nearby
Amir of Sarai Salamat Khan. The manner in which they
returned her to the Amir became a legend and people
still give example of their noble and moral character"
(Ranjit Singh's Khalsa Raj and Attariwala Sardars,'
National Book Depot Delhi 1944 Edition page 14.)

Sikhism preaches complementary roles of men and women
in all social spheres. However, women are not debarred
from any activities carried out by men; nor are they
restricted to any special dress. Indeed, although
there is a traditional Panjabi dress for women
(salwar, kameez and a light material head cloth), they
may dress exactly like men and go to battle if need
be. Some famous Sikh women have in fact led armies to
battle.

Islamic intolerance: "One who chooses to follow the
code revealed by God becomes a Muslim and one who
refuses to follow it becomes a {censored}."(The Religion of
Islam by Khurshid Ahmed page 4). "Believers are God's
party but un-believers are Devil's party"(HQ4: 76).
"Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers" (HQ
2:15, 90,98). "Accursed, they will be seized wherever
found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter (HQ 33:61).
The tribes of Uraina and Ukl had their hands and legs
cut off, their eyes gouged out and no water was given
to them. They died a slow and painful death. (SB 577)

Sikhism: The nearest word to {censored} in Sikhism is
sakat. In Gurbani it is used for those who do not
believe in the existence of God. Unlike Islam, Sikhism
does not order killing of such persons but does advise
to avoid their company. "Shun the company of sakat,
keep him at an arm's length"(GGS p. 1371). Whatever
the extent of enmity, Sikhism does not sanction cruel
treatment. Guru Gobind Singh blessed Bhai Kanhaya when
the latter offered water and assistance to the fallen
enemy in the battlefield. The Guru also instructed him
to treat the wounds of the enemies.

"The True Guru has no anger or vengeance and preaches
the same. He looks upon son and enemy alike. He helps
in removing faults and mistakes and thus purifies the
human body"(GGS 960)


Superstition:

Prophet Muhammad preferred always to travel only on a 
Thursday, which is considered auspicious. (SB 199
V.4.B.52) "The year is of twelve months out of which
four months (Dhul Qa'da, Dhul Hijja, Muharrum and
Rajab) are sacred."(SB 419 V4 B54)

In Sikhism no day or month is considered more
auspicious than the others are.
"The same moon rises, the same stars, the same sun
shines in the sky, the earth remains the same and the
same wind blows. How can it be then that some times
are sacred and the others not?" (GGS P.902)


Sacrifice or cruelty to animals? :

All adult Muslims are supposed to sacrifice an animal
on Id-al-Adha (SM 4818-4835) because "There is a
reward annexed to every hair of the animal sacrifice"
(Trimidhi V.1-1392). "On the day of judgement the
horns, hair and hoofs of the sacrificed animal fall in
the pan of pious deeds and thus cancel out the
misdeeds of the devotees"(Mishkwat –al- Masabih Book 4
.Chapter 49-2)

According to Sikhism animal sacrifice has no spiritual
merit and is strictly forbidden.

"The use of force is tyranny even if you call it
halal. When your account is called for in the court of
the Lord, what will your predicament be then?" 
(GGS Page 1374)

Sikhism believes in sacrifice for a noble cause or for
the good of humanity when necessary. Guru Gobind
Singh, at Chamkaur, dressed and sent his own two sons
to the battle in a spirit of sacrifice for the right
cause.

Service with humility (sewa), sharing one's food and
earnings with the needy, treading the righteous path
regardless of cost, and inner detachment while living
a full life, is the Guru's way of sacrifice. Sikhism
preaches that a real sacrifice is to lay down one's
own life for a noble cause.

Religious war: Islamic view:
Jihad is defined by H.G. Koenigsberger as "Spreading
Islam by war." 
"The various means employed by an Islamic state to
spread Islam are called jihad, if they involve strife
and struggle. The more popular form of jihad is holy
war"(CIS p.54)

"Fight against such of those who have been given the
Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,
and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His
Messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until
they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." (HQ
9:29)

Regarding the spoils of war the Holy Quran says, "Now
enjoy ye what you have won, as lawful and good" (HQ
8:69,48:15). "If a town disobeys Allah and the
Messenger one fifth of the booty seized therefrom is
for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you"
said Muhammad (SM 4346)

Sikhism is opposed to spreading religion through war.
The nearest concept to Jihad is dharam yudh (fight for
justice or the righteous cause). Use of force for
propagating religion or for changing another's
ideology or point of view runs contrary to Sikh belief
and practice. The divinely inspired compositions of
Muslim and Hindu saints have been included in Sri Guru
Granth Sahib and given the same status as the hymns of
the Sikh Gurus.

Sikhism, therefore, demonstrably preaches that no
single ideology has the monopoly of access to God or
the Ultimate Truth. The Sikh Guru went further when
Guru Tegh Bahadhur (Nanak IX) gave his life to uphold
another's right of worship in his own way. Sikh Gurus
were fully aware of the need for the use of arms for
defending freedom of religious ideology and the
geo-political implications which were bound to flow
from it. The concept of Khalsa Raj and the just
theo-political aspirations of the Sikhs have brought
(and continue to bring) the Sikh nation into armed
conflict with authoritarian regimes. In certain
circumstances, when all other means have failed,
resort to arms is considered legitimate. Guru Tegh
Bahadur's injunction is:
"Frighten none and accept fear from no-one." (GGS p.
1427)

Guru Nanak's followers could not shirk their
responsibility towards other fellow beings nor could
they accept fear from anyone. Guru Nanak spoke out
against social, political and administrative injustice
and he expected his followers to do the same. The Sikh
Gurus and the bhagats (saints), whose compositions are
recorded in the Holy Granth, were well aware of the
need for resorting to arms for defending human rights
and the freedom of religious ideologies.

"The true warrior is one who fights in defence of the
downtrodden." 
(GGS p. 1105)

"When all attempts to obtain justice fail, it is
legitimate to move the hand to the hilt of the sword."
(Guru Gobind Singh's Zafarnama to Moghul Emperor
Aurangzeb).

Wah Bai Wah Gurmkuh Singh Ji - Swaad Aa Gaya ... 


Akal Sahai 

BabbarSher

Request: Please post this on other sites as well


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## Critical Singh (Jul 16, 2004)

Ha ! Ha!! Ha!!!

I am amazed to gather the level of their spirituality of such people, who take joy in  superiority of Religions. This is one of most crapiest and idotic passage i ever read.

10000 servents!! 80 virgins!! Are we living in Stone Age ? It may have been a very easy and effective way of luring people some 1500 years ago along with ruthless forced submission to tyrrant Islamic terrorism but even today if people espacially Sikhs, would believe such piece of bull... then they better embrace Islam casue they would be a utter burden on Sikhism. Just my first reaction. apologies for rudeness. can't help it. Gr8 reply by Gurmukh Singh Ji.


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## Critical Singh (Jul 16, 2004)

their website if down too!! what a bunch of jokers.


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## Arvind (Jul 16, 2004)

Ill -logic is sometimes difficult to be handled by logic.. just my thought.
But certainly, appropriate response with a cool head is always needed.

I guess, sikhs need to be calm in case of such type of calls. Or otherwise, what are we scared of? Are we not sure of our own faith, or principles?


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## Admin (Jul 17, 2004)

LoL!! i think we should invite some Muslims from that website face the music... LoL!!


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## Neutral Singh (Jul 25, 2004)

any updates ??


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## etinder (Jul 26, 2004)

This is a great reply by Gurmukh Singhji, a very critical and methodical,but one thing thai i always ask is are we as human beings evolving? Why irrespective of religions we all are so ethnocentric?


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## thecoopes (Jan 1, 2005)

Dear friends a short while ago around 20:00 on the 1st of Jan UK time, I asked what now appears to me a stupid question... “Islam a threat or benefit to Britain”





I should have read this article first! My apologies to all enlightened ones around the world that such a diatribe of complete utter facile garbage should emanate from a country like Britain.

The only thing I would say to this poor lost soul is. “If these insane ramblings are a true expression of the religion you have become enslaved to then God help us all”!

Your belief of Islam as the cornerstone of some utopia is hollow, Muslims in their tens of thousands clamour to come to the West in their search for freedom and wealth.

All that Islam will do is drag this and any country it grows in back to the Middle ages, one only has to look at the Islamic societies around the world to dispel the myth that our young intolerant friend is trying to pass as truth, most are corrupt and oppressed and this is the reason so many want the freedoms of liberal countries. As he said they haven’t changed for 1400 years, it is sad and a bit worrying that in the 21st century we still have people so willing to hand their reasoning powers over to a medieval religion of total mind control.


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## lion (Jan 1, 2005)

if we want to build a peacefullworld,then i think islam needs to be banned in west and elsewhere...........


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 1, 2005)

This book is availbale free from the author who is in the UK.

The book is published by the sikh misiionary Socety ands is a MUST READ for All Sikhs.  The distingushed author ahs also written another free book detailing sikhism and christianity as well.

jarnail Singh.


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## Living Mind (Jan 4, 2005)

lion said:
			
		

> if we want to build a peacefullworld,then i think islam needs to be banned in west and elsewhere...........


Banned!!! you are putting it very mildly:down: 

Just read what ex-muslims have to say about Islam and their reverred Mohammad at www.faithfreedom.org. The only solution is to eradicate them from the face of the earth. And I wholoe-heartedly agree.....:}8-: :}8-:


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## Living Mind (Jan 4, 2005)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
			
		

> This book is availbale free from the author who is in the UK.
> 
> The book is published by the sikh misiionary Socety ands is a MUST READ for All Sikhs. The distingushed author ahs also written another free book detailing sikhism and christianity as well.
> 
> jarnail Singh.


Which book are you referring to, Gyani Ji? and could I please have the address from where I could avail of it?

Thank you.


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

lol its time to demolish all your arguements. Lol its funny how when on this site if anything is said in offense to sikhism the thread is close or what ever but if islam or other religions its perfectly okay. Anyways back the arguement thingy. I will answer each question you have submitted so here goes.*Question: *

Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is polygamy allowed in Islam?



*Answer:* 

Definition of Polygamy 

*1. *Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited.

Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife? 
*2. **The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,"marry only one".*



The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.

Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives.

In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.



Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (95% C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife. 
*3. **Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims*



The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures. 



Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife. 
*4. Qur’an permits limited polygyny*



As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an: 

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one."

[Al-Qur’an 4:3]

Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them. 

In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:

"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...."

[Al-Qur’an 4:129]

Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.

Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:

‘_Fard’_ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
‘_Mustahab_’ i.e. recommended or encouraged
‘_Mubah_’ i.e. permissible or allowed
‘_Makruh_’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged
‘_Haraam_’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife. 
*5. **Average life span of females is more than that of males*



By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females. 



During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers. 
*6. **India has more male population than female due to female foeticide and infanticide*



India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males. 


*7. **World female population is more than male population *



In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males. 


*8. **Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical*



Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.

Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first. 

In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life. 

Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second.

There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

*Question:* 

If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband? 

*Answer: 

*A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women. 

Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical. 

Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with who you can not marry and it is further mentions in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married"



The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam: 
1.   If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.


2.   Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.


3.   Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.


4.   A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.


The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

*Question: *

Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

*Answer:* 



The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘_hijaab’_ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘_hijaab_’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam *
1.   **In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust*



The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:






Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.

Greek Civilization: 
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.

Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.

Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.

Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

*
2.   **Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.*



Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.



*Hijaab for men*

People usually only discuss ‘_hijaab_’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘_hijaab_’ for men before ‘_hijaab_’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

*Hijaab for women.

*The next verse of Surah Noor, says:



" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..."
[Al-Qur’an 24:31] *
3.   **Six criteria for Hijaab.*



According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing _hijaab_:


Extent:

The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘_hijaab_’.

All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.

The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.

The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.

The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.

The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.

The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

*
4.   **Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things*



Complete ‘_hijaab_’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘_hijaab_’ of the clothes is observing ‘_hijaab_’ in a limited sense. ‘_Hijaab_’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘_hijaab’ _of the eyes, ‘_hijaab_’ of the heart, ‘_hijaab_’ of thought and ‘_hijaab_’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

*
5.   **Hijaab prevents molestation*



The reason why _Hijaab _is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]



The Qur’an says that _Hijaab _has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested. *
6.   **Example of twin sisters*



Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic _hijaab_ i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic _Hijaab _or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that _hijaab_ prevents women from being molested.

*
7.   **Capital punishment for the rapists*



Under the Islamic _shariah_, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

*
8.   **Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women*



Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

*
9.   **USA has one of the highest rates of rape*



United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.



Consider a scenario where the Islamic _hijaab _is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic _hijaab_, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease? *
10.   **Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes*



Naturally as soon as Islamic _Shariah _is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic _Shariah _is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. _Hijaab _does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

*Question:

*Under Islamic law, why is a woman’s share of the inherited wealth only half that of a man?

*Answer:

*The Glorious Qur’an contains specific and detailed guidance regarding the division of the inherited wealth, among the rightful beneficiaries. 

The Qur’anic verses that contain guidance regarding inheritance are:

* Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 180

* Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 240

* Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 7-9

* Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 19

* Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 33 and

* Surah Maidah, chapter 5 verse 106-108
​There are three verses in the Qur’an that broadly describe the share of close relatives i.e. Surah Nisah chapter 4 verses 11, 12 and 176. The translation of these verses are as follows:

"Allah (swt) (thus) directs you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females, if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; If only one, her share is a half.

For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; If no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. 

In what your wives leave, your share is half. If they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eight; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to anyone). Thus it is ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing Most Forbearing"
                                  [Al-Qur’an 4:11-12]

"They ask thee for a legal decision. Say: Allah directs (them) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance. If (such a deceased was) a woman who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance. If there are two sisters, they shall have two thirds of the inheritance (between them). If there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah (swt) makes clear to you (His knowledge of all things). 
                                 [Al-Qur’an 4:176]

In most of the cases, a woman inherits half of what her male counterpart inherits. However, this is not always the case. In case the deceased has left no ascendant or descendent but has left the uterine brother and sister, each of the two inherit one sixth. If the deceased has left children, both the parents that is mother and father get an equal share and inherit one sixth each. In certain cases, a woman can also inherit a share that is double that of the male. If the deceased is a woman who has left no children, brothers or sisters and is survived only by her husband, mother and father, the husband inherits half the property while the mother inherits one third and the father the remaining one sixth. In this particular case, the mother inherits a share that is double that of the father. It is true that as a general rule, in most cases, the female inherits a share that is half that of the male. For instance in the following cases:

1. daughter inherits half of what the son inherits, 

2. wife inherits 1/8th and husband 1/4th if the deceased has no children. 

3. Wife inherits 1/4th and husband 1/2 if the deceased has children

4. If the deceased has no ascendant or descendent, the sister inherits a share that is half that of the brother. 
​In Islam a woman has no financial obligation and the economical responsibility lies on the shoulders of the man. Before a woman is married it is the duty of the father or brother to look after the lodging, boarding, clothing and other financial requirements of the woman. After she is married it is the duty of the husband or the son. Islam holds the man financially responsible for fulfilling the needs of his family. In order to do be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance. For example, if a man dies leaving about Rs. One Hundred and Fifty Thousand, for the children (i.e one son and one daughter) the son inherits One Hundred Thousand rupees and the daughter only Fifty Thousand rupees. Out of the one hundred thousand which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about eighty thousand and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about twenty thousand, left for himself. On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits fifty thousand is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself. Would you prefer inheriting one hundred thousand rupees and spending eighty thousand from it, or inheriting fifty thousand rupees and having the entire amount to yourself?


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## thecoopes (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi Muslim friend, your in depth answers deserve some deep consideration so don't let this comment be considered flippant/ Just an observation.

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic _hijaab_ i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic _Hijaab _or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an *indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation*. The Qur’an rightly says that _hijaab_ prevents women from being molested.

Why are the Muslim men so uncontrolled when they see someone not in a Hijaab? Shouldn't the Koran help them to control their lust!


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

Yes they should control themselves and this is not directed at muslim men in particular but all men. Hijjab is there to protect women from men and men from themselves.


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## thecoopes (Jan 8, 2005)

My dear Muslim friend please consider this. You and I are very lucky we are allowed to debate on this website in such a free and open manner.

I enrolled on an Islamic website the other day and found that the level of intolerance and rage against any who commented about Islamic beliefs or political events involving Muslims was unprecedented to the extent that you could be referred to as an ignorant dog.

In my ignorance of Muslim beliefs I made an innocuous lighthearted comment on a posting discussing the twelve Imams. For this I was banned, compared to the things we have been allowed to say on this site it was just innocent.

You have taken a lot of time to compile your answers and I look forward to analyzing and discussing them with you.

Best wishes.

John C


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

im glad to hear that.


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## thecoopes (Jan 8, 2005)

Sorry I don’t know your name so have to use the title name, Muslim. Anyhow peace be with you.

I am truly impressed with the amount of work you put into your posts my humble contribution follows:

Hi, first may I say about polygamy and Muslims, as long as I don’t have to pay in my Taxes for increased family income supplement whether you have one or fifty wives is not my concern.

However on your point about polygamy and the religious beliefs of Christians with the Bible saying nothing about one wife.

It actually teaches one wife.

Although the whole Bible is viewed as gods divine word, it is the teachings of the Christian Greek scriptures that are the basis for Christian beliefs, where a teaching from what is known as the Old Testament or Hebrew scriptures is not in conflict with the thoughts conveyed in the former then this too would be viewed by a Christian as sacrosanct.

The Hebrew scripture is full of instances of polygamy; this though is not the teaching in the Christian Greek scripture.

QUOTE:

“This is why a man will leave his father and mother and stick to his wife. So that the two will become one flesh”. 


Notice that it uses the singular “wife” and not the plural “wives”? Also that the *two* will become one flesh!

In addition numerous letters by the Apostles clearly show a Christian should be the husband of one wife. 

However in male dominated societies and in disagreement with Divine will men have manipulated Gods word so that they have been able to take more than one wife, even today certain Christian sects use scholastic gymnastics so as to be able to circumvent Gods will.

They justify their actions in the same manner you have described as the benefits and reasons that Muslims legitimise polygamy. 

Also trying to split hairs on whether Islam or the West has the best respect for women is pointless.

You believe that women are better off under Islamic attitudes to the sexes. We have a saying in Britain. “ You would say that wouldn’t you.” But from a people who engage in what you call honour killings and these committed mainly against women I doubt that the Hijab is anything more than the manifestation of male domination that masquerades as respect. 

Kind regards


John C


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## muslim (Jan 8, 2005)

Remeber honour killings have nothing to do with islam and for a muslim to kill another is one of the worst sins, and so again you are judging islam from followers who arent always true to islam, as the saying goes there are always a few bad apples that ruin the bunch or whatever it is, you get my drift. So John what is your solution to the problems of rape, pedophillia and sexual assualts that are carried out on mostly women. Unlike any other religion islam a given clear guidlines to a womens dress code where as sikhism or hindus allows modest dressing. But the problem with that idea is the concept or general concencus of modest or moderate dressing is changing with the times. As we can see looking back over the years it seems womens colthes are becoming more revealing, more tight and so forth. so if hijjab is not the answer what is?


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## thecoopes (Jan 8, 2005)

You have a valid point and there can be little doubt that half clad women are more likely to arouse sexual desire than someone who is dressed more modestly.

The people in this moment of time do seem to have lost something in that evil appears to be one of the most prevalent forces. I am not criticising for the sake of bloody mindedness but would point out that paedophilia is against the section of society that even in Islam is not dressed in Hijaab’s, also many sick rapes are now sadly against OAP’s. Do you not think that rather than the dress codes itself the lack of general morals is one of the main reasons. 

Also when you have any religion that legislates on one thing then it has to legislate on everything, it then becomes just a book of rules.

In Christianity the command was to write it on your heart so as to love your neighbour as yourself, but alas Christianity for many has become a book of rules, with people just wanting someone to tell them what to do.

I really believe that unless you have a relationship on a personal level and as an individual, recognising you are accountable to God and you as an individual have to work it out for yourself, proving each step you take. Unless we do this we just become part of a huge juggernaut of religion where we surrender our reasoning to religious leaders. This would be great if they were right but the consequences for us if they are wrong would be catastrophic, "I do not wish to be the slave of another mans conscience." 

Just a point, most of the honour killings I have read about were to do with Muslims and the channel 4 program that was “I won’t marry a white” was to do with this strict view among Asian families especially Muslims. 



Just to retrace our steps on this polygamy thing. As an old man that has been married it certainly would not work with liberated Western women as I can tell you If you value your sanity one of them is more than enough!:8-


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## Arvind (Jan 11, 2005)

muslim said:
			
		

> Lol its funny how when on this site if anything is said in offense to sikhism the thread is close or what ever but if islam or other religions its perfectly okay.


Readers on this forum are aware of the openness here. Please enlighten us, Which threads were closed? Yes, there was one thread with arrogant arguments, which was put under observation for some time, and now you must have seen that restored - Without any editing. 

Further, Gyani ji gave you detailed reply in other threads, there was no reply from your side. Let him know, if there is any problem in understanding any particular thing, and we are here to help you out.

Also, this site doesnt intend to become any bashing kind of site. So I would like to know those threads, which mention such bashing material. I am not in favor of keeping hatred and intolerance filled threads in this forum, initiated by SPN members, whatever reason may be. Kindly do this favor to us, by letting us know.

Enjoy Life!


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## drkhalsa (Jan 11, 2005)

Dear Muslim 



I dont want to argue about what Islam teaches but what i am giving is facts 

your assertion that rotten apple spoils pthers does not seems to work here all these are Islamic countries and all are showing signs of rotten stuff and the rest that live in western world  do do such things because western law (which is based on rationaity) is saving muslims and there women 



*Jordan:* 

On May 31, 1994, Kifaya Husayn, a 16-year-old Jordanian girl, was lashed to a chair by her 32-year-old brother. He gave her a drink of water and told her to recite an Islamic prayer. Then he slashed her throat. Immediately afterward, he ran out into the street, waving the bloody knife and crying, 'I have killed my sister to cleanse my honor.' Kifaya's crime? She was raped by another brother, a 21-year-old man. Her judge and jury? Her own uncles, who convinced her eldest brother that Kifaya was too much of a disgrace to the family’s honor to be allowed to live." The murderer was sentenced to fifteen years, but the sentence was subsequently reduced to seven and a half years, an extremely severe penalty by Jordanian standards. 

                                                            Chicago Tribune, May 3, 1998

*Lahore, Pakistan:* 

6 April 1999, 29-year-old Samia Sarwar, the mother of two young boys, was shot dead in the office of her lawyer.  Samia was seeking a divorce after suffering years of domestic abuse from her violent husband. Her family felt that in seeking divorce, she had tarnished their honor, and for this she was brutally killed. 

                                                                                    Amnesty International, 1999

*Palestine:* 

A 25-year-old Palestinian who hanged his sister with a rope: "I did not kill her, but rather helped her to commit suicide and to carry out the death penalty she sentenced herself to. I did it to wash with her blood the family honor that was violated because of her and in response to the will of society that would not have had any mercy on me if I didn't . . . Society taught us from childhood that blood is the only solution to wash the honor." 

            Al-Ayyam, June 1, 2000







In the last few weeks, the Swedish society has been touched by the brutal and calculated murder of Fadima Sahindal; a young courageous woman who chose to live according to her will and paid the price by her life. In the last two months, two other young women in Denmark and Britain were killed by their fathers because of the honor of the family. Honor of men and the family took their lives. Honor killing is a tribal and Islamic practice prevalent in Islam- ridden countries and Muslim inhabited communities in the West. Being killed deliberately and brutally is, in fact, a price that victims pay to practice their minimal human rights such as how to dress, talk to men other than their male family members, live, work and study independently, and marry at will, or have voluntary sexual relations.

Hundreds of women get shot, burned, strangled, stoned, poisoned, beheaded or stabbed every year in Islam ridden countries because their male relatives believe their actions have soiled the family name. They die, so family honor may survive. According to this tribal and religious practice, woman is a man's possession and a reflection of his honor. It is the man's honor that gets tarnished if a woman is 'loose'. The murderers and their defenders refer to this verse of the Koran that allows husbands to beat their wives: "As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill - conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them", the Koran, chapter 4, verse 34. Honor killing is a tribal practice that has been incorporated in the religion of Islam, because of its anti - women nature and misogynist philosophy. And the law is usually on the man's side, not only in the Middle Eastern and the Central Asian countries, but shamefully, in the Western countries too. They often letting murderers go unpunished or with a light sentence.

According to this Islamic concept and tradition, from the early childhood, girls are taught about "eib", which means shame, and "sharaf", which means honor. And everywhere girls go are reminders that their most important mission in life is to remain virgin until they marry. Boys are also taught to have "ghayrat", meaning to be ardent. All these concepts are Islamic concepts, and that is why the killers always defend their acts of murder by these Islamic concepts. According to the UN statistics, the majority of these murders occur in the Islam - ridden countries and Muslin inhabited communities in the West.

Though, honor killing may seem not much surprising in societies such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, its occurrence is indeed shocking and shameful in the heart of Europe in the 21st Century. And that is where the reactionary idea of Cultural Relativism is put into practice to justify women's victimization by excusing Islam and backward traditions. Unfortunately, until recently which some measures were implemented by the Swedish government, this government not only neglected to protect the lives and the rights of these women, but also justified their murders under the name of respecting 'other' people's religion and culture. While the murderers have repeatedly and openly defend their act by referring to Islam and the Koran, the majority of feminists, the mainstream media and intellectuals try to explain these murders as the prevalent patterns of domestic violence against women in the Western societies. While the murderers, whether in the Middle Eastern countries or in the Muslim inhabited communities in the West, openly state that their act of murder are "crimes of honor", and that they are merely following the directions set down in their religious beliefs, both in the Koran and in the Bible, the apologetic Western intellectuals repeatedly assure us that it is not Islam and the backward traditions, it is the common pattern of violence that is happening to the Western women too.

Swedish intellectuals should show the honesty that is required and expected from intellectuals, by telling the truth, by siding with those innocent young women who were victimized and continue to be brutally victimized because of the Islamic and backward tradition. It is not acceptable to apologize for Islam and backwardness.

And as far as the Swedish government is concerned, there shouldn't be a different basis for people's right in the one and same society; in the Swedish society. All should be considered as Swedish citizens and equal before the law. The Swedish society is duty bound to safe guard and protect the rights of women and girls from Muslim origins. This could be done only by abolishing all the respective discriminatory laws against these girls and women. This could be done only when there is no respect, excuse and legal interpretation for the misogynist Islamic and traditional beliefs and practices.







*As with many Holy Books the Quran is open to interpretation. Many of its teachings are paradoxical, contradictory and not relevant to the present period. To give just one example, the Quran has entire sections on how to treat a slave because in the 7th century slavery was seen as quite normal. Here are some of the teachings the Quran has with regards to women.* 

*Negative things the Quran says about women:** "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other and because men spend their wealth to maintain women. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those women from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. They if they obey you take no further action against them. Allah is high, supreme." **Holy Quran. Sura 4:34*

And for those of you who speak Arabic: "Al-rijal qawwamun ‘ala al-nisa’ bi ma faddala Allahu ba‘duhum ‘ala ba‘din wa bi ma anfaqu min amwalihim. Fa al-salihat qanitat, hafizat li’l-ghayb bi ma hafiza Allah. Wa allati tukhafuna nushuzahunna, fa ‘izuhunna wa ahjuruhunna fi’l-madaji‘ wa adribuhunna, fa in ata‘nakum, fa la tabghu ‘alayhinna sabilan. Inna Allah kana ‘Aliyyan, Kabir."

*In the teachings of the Quran adulterous women should be flogged while women found guilty of fornication should be put under house arrest until death or until "Allah ordains for them another way."*

*Also according to the Quran, a daughter can only receive half the inheritance of a son. A woman's testimony in court is worth half that of a man's. The compensation for the murder of a woman is half that as for a man.*

*Positive things the Quran says about women:** The education of girls is a sacred duty. Women are allowed to own and inherit property. And, according to the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, sexual satisfaction is a woman's entitlement.*
​​*Women in Taliban Afghanistan *

*Though the Taliban have been driven out of power in Afghanistan much of the laws and traditions they enforced still remain in place. Mercifully the situation is changing but slowly. . . *


Since theTaliban took power in 1996 women have had to wear a tentlike garment called a burqua. They have been beaten and stoned in public for not having the proper attire, even if this means simply not having the mesh covering in front of their eyes. One woman was beaten to death by an angry mob of fundamentalists for accidentally exposing her arm while she was driving which she was also forbidden to do. Another was stoned to death for trying to leave the country with a man that was not a relative. 
Women were not allowed to work or even go out in public without a male relative; professional women such as professors, translators, doctors, lawyers, artists and writers were forced from their jobs and restricted to their homes. 
Homes where a woman is present must have their windows painted so that she can never be seen by outsiders. They must wear silent shoes so that they are never heard. 
Women live in fear of their lives for the slightest misbehavior. Because they cannot work, those without male relatives or husbands are either starving to death or begging in the street, even if they hold Ph.D.'s. 
Depression is becoming so widespread that it has reached emergency levels. There is no way in such an extreme Islamic society to know the suicide rate with certainty, but relief workers are estimating that the suicide rate among women must be extraordinarily high: those who cannot find proper medication and treatment for severe depression and would rather take their lives than live in such conditions. 
At one of the rare hospitals for women, a reporter found still, nearly lifeless bodies lying motionless on top of beds, wrapped in their burqua, unwilling to speak, eat, or do anything, but slowly wasting away. Others have gone mad and were seen crouched in corners, perpetually rocking or crying, most of them in fear. It is at the point where the term "human rights violations" has become an understatement. 
Husbands have the power of life and death over their women relatives, especially their wives, but 
an angry mob has just as much right to stone or beat a woman, often to death, for exposing an inch of flesh or offending them in the slightest way.
​*Women in Bahrain *


In Bahrain, a male doctor may legally examine a woman's genitals but is prohibited from looking directly at them during the examination. He may only see their reflection in a mirror. 
​*Women in Bangladesh *


Over 2000 women a year are victims of fatal or disfiguring acid attacks for alleged improper behaviour. (_The World and I_, May 2003) 
A rapist can sometimes marry the woman he has assaulted and avoid prosecution. This saves the family's "honor" and the woman's life. The result is that the assailant is now effectively allowed to rape his victim repeatedly, with the blessing of the court system.
​*Women in Egypt *


A woman cannot leave the country without her husband's permission. 
FGM (Female Circumcision or Female Genital Mutilation) is widespread in Egypt. 
"Honor Killing" is still practiced in rural areas and even in the main city of Cairo.. 
Wife beating is so prevalent that most housewives see it as a normal part of marriage. Social workers spend much of their time just trying to convince victims that their husband's violent acts are unnacceptable.
​*Women in the Islamic Republic of Iran *


The legal age for marriage of a girl is 9 years old. 
Iran's penal code specifies, "The stoning of an adulterer or adulteress shall be carried out while each is placed in a hole and covered with soil, he up to his waist and she up to a line above her breasts". Court appointed officials or ordinary citizens then pelt the accused with stones large enough to cause pain but not large enough to kill immediately. In the Islamic penal code called Sharia the burden to prove guilt in a man is much more than with a woman. Thus women are punished more by their "transgressions" than men. Two women were stoned to death in Iran in 2001, one for adultery and the other for appearing in a pornographic movie. Cited in TIME Europe; Sept 2, 2002, p. 26-7
​*Women in Jordan *


Article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code states, "He who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives has commited adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one or both of them, is exempted from any penalty." In December 2001 Articles 97 and 98 allow for a reduced sentence for crimes committed in a "fit of fury" related to the perceived loss of honor. Approximately 75% of such "honor" killings are committed by the brother of the victim. The average sentence for the murder is about 6 months. Attempts by International Human Rights groups to cancel or modify this law are charactarised as attempts to erode Arab morals and destroy families. 62% of Jordanians oppose amending this article. 
At least 50 women a year are imprisoned in Jordan on "honor" related cases. Most will be killed by their family if they are released. "Once imprisoned a woman can only be released to a male relative who must agree not to murder them. Regarless of assurances women are often murdered within hours after their discharge. In one particularly grisly incident, Fayaz Mohammed secured the release of his seventeen-year old daughter, Lamis, from a Jordanian Detention center. He guaranteed her safety and then slit her throat once she was released in his care. Fayaz was sentenced to nine months in prison for his crime. (_The World and I_, May 2003, p. 184-9) 
​*Women in Muslim Kashmir *


A woman who leaves the house with her face uncovered runs the risk of having acid thrown in her face. 
A woman's virginity is considered the family's responsibility, especially the male members who will dominate her for her entire life, first her father, then her brothers, then her husband and finally her sons.
​*Women in Palestine *


Women are not allowed to travel alone. They are required to have a male relative accompany them if they leave the house. Unfortunately, her male "guardian" - father, brother, uncle or cousin - may also be her rapist. Should she become pregnant, he will publicly condemn for dishonoring the family and then kill her and the unborn child. In 2002, 17-year old Afaf Younes was killed by her father, who had allegedly been sexually molesting her. Afaf had tried to escape his sexual abuse by running away, but she was caught and returned to her father. He then shot her in the name of honor. (_The World and I_, May 2003, p. 191) 
Among Palestinians, all sexual encounters, including rape and incest are blamed on the woman. Men are presumed innocent; the women must have tempted him into raping her or enticed him into having an affair. Even if a woman survives a violent rape, she is condemned for her "mistake" and may be killed by her family. (_The World and I_, May 2003, p. 188) 
If a woman brings shame to her family, her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to kill her. "A woman shamed is like rotting flesh," according to one Palestinian merchant. "If it is not cut away, it will consume the body. What I mean is that the whole family will be tainted if she is not killed." 
​*Women in Pakistan *


In law, the testimony of one man is equal to that of two women 
For a woman to prove rape, four adult males of "impeccable" character must witness the penetration according to the local interpretation of Shari'a or Islamic Law. As a result very, very few men are charged with rape. 
However, according to a CNN report in August 2002, 60% of women are charged with adultery in Pakistan if they are raped. The punishment for their "crime" is that the women are jailed or are forced to marry their rapist.
​*Women in Saudi Arabia *


Women are not allowed to drive automobiles or fly anywhere without the permission of their husband or senior male relative. 
Women can only work in complete segregation from men. 
"Honor killings" are widespread. A male relative can kill his female relative for such "offenses" as, allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, refusing an arranged marriage, attempting to obtain a divorce, or simply talking with a man.
 



I will write more in few days as I am busy in coming days


Jatinder Singh


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## Living Mind (Jan 12, 2005)

lion said:
			
		

> if we want to build a peacefullworld,then i think islam needs to be banned in west and elsewhere...........


In my personal opinion, with the present 'global nature' environment of the world we live in and also the strength and size of Islam, it would be quite impossible to BAN it. However, I do believe in all earnestness that its influence has to be or rather MUST BE controlled. What could be done if possible is a universal agrement of all religions to stop the forced propagation of religions and the stop to misinterpretations and radical presentations of religions for personal or sectarian benefit.

Religions MUST be taken out of influence of politics and their leaders be prevented from entering politics or influencing it. If we care to notice, most if not all problems of the world tcoday are religion based and caused!!!!!

Religion is important but only is so much as it is to make us righteous and give us peace of mind; definitely not to control the populace and decide on how anyone should or should not live a life.

We have to remember that Man came first and then Religion; not the other way round!!!!!


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## muslim (Jan 12, 2005)

Islam has nothing to do with honour killings, say what you like it is not permissible and is a great sin.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 12, 2005)

muslim said:
			
		

> Islam has nothing to do with honour killings, say what you like it is not permissible and is a great sin.


I agree.  It is not "Islam" per se...the killers in question are muslims who dont understand their religion well.

Just like the thousands of "SIKHS" in Punjab and elsewhere who ABORT FEMALE FOETUSES....are Sikhs who dont understand the SIKH RELIGION very well. GURU JI CONDEMNS killing of daughters/wives.... yet see how many dowry killings happen in Punjab sikh homes as well.

This is usually our misconception...we say "ISLAM" "SIKH" when we actually mean the Followers of islam, Followers of Sikhi...the two are worlds apart.

Jarnail singh


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## muslim (Jan 13, 2005)

I totally agree.


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## Platinum007 (Jan 17, 2005)

In reguards to people saying Islam is still in the stone age, and hasn't moved fowards. Ever wonder, why? maybe it could be because Muslims don't want to because such advancements would lead to leading a false religion, and falsehood leads to a fake religion and a unpracticed one. In the end we are only here for lets say 60 to 80 years. why not fulfill the duty of God? (muslim pont of view)

So WHY would you want to evolve into this western society?.
from what i see all this has lead to many of our sisters spreading there legs to any guy, guys smoking up pot (because its okay and natural), drinking... 

the way i see it, if you give society a little bit of something it will just ask for more and more... example: sex, look at how far its come from the 1900s just in the west.. now we have girls gone wild video's in cancun.

So basically all i'm trying to say is it seems Muslims are just keeping to there own way which is keeping TRUE to there religion and they refuse evolve becase they are afraid it would lead to what we have today in the west. Now if a muslim wants to live in the west that is his/her choice, after all saying such things like "muslims shouldn't be allowed in the west" is pretty ignorant especially when its coming form a sikh after all arn't sikhs suppose  to treat and see all as equals regardless of there faith... Jew, Budist or whatever


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## thecoopes (Jan 18, 2005)

Salaamulaikum I just love that Islamic thought.

Hi my friend, for what its worth here is my take on it, in respect to an objective view of Islam.

I say objective as I am no follower of any religion and am at the moment taking a fresh look at faith.



In reguards to people saying Islam is still in the stone age, and hasn't moved fowards. Ever wonder, why? maybe it could be because Muslims don't want to because such advancements would lead to leading a false religion, and falsehood leads to a fake religion and a unpracticed one. In the end we are only here for lets say 60 to 80 years. why not fulfill the duty of God? (muslim pont of view)



I have some sympathy with you here about changing to fit a modern world, the world may change but Gods word does not need to be processed for 21st century consumption.

However what I see in Islam and the interpretation of Gods will by its followers leads me to view them as just an elitist gang of myopic fanatics who believe that all who are not Muslim are dammed. This is first hand experience from living next to a large Islamic community.

As most people believe in their own religion with the same conviction as Muslims, and as all religions need faith the simple fact is, yours is true in your eyes due to faith all religions stand on faith, the faith you have does not make yours right any more than the faith I have makes mine right. Faith is unsupported belief, enjoy your religion but respect others, believe by all means yours is the truth but allow the possibility that others believe with the same faith theirs is the truth. 


So WHY would you want to evolve into this western society?.
from what i see all this has lead to many of our sisters spreading there legs to any guy, guys smoking up pot (because its okay and natural), drinking... 


Yes I have to agree with you here Western society leaves a lot to be desired in respect to morals.

Yet what an anathema that people who complain so much about the decadence of the West clamour to get here in their millions. Particularly to get hold of this wealth that has been generated by corruption. I don’t think the God you worship would see your argument for living in the West as valid! 

the way i see it, if you give society a little bit of something it will just ask for more and more... example: sex, look at how far its come from the 1900s just in the west.. now we have girls gone wild video's in cancun. I haven’t seen that one, and if it offends don’t watch it.


So basically all i'm trying to say is it seems Muslims are just keeping to there own way which is keeping TRUE to there religion and they refuse evolve becase they are afraid it would lead to what we have today in the west. Now if a muslim wants to live in the west that is his/her choice, after all saying such things like "muslims shouldn't be allowed in the west" is pretty ignorant especially when its coming form a sikh after all arn't sikhs suppose to treat and see all as equals regardless of there faith... Jew, Budist or whatever

I’m not a Sikh or any religion you would recognise, I am a Anglo Saxon Westerner who thinks that we have left the door open for too many people who come here and bleat continually how bad everything is, but are the first in the welfare queue and first to scream when they feel their new Western freedoms have been infringed. 

We do think all men are equals but ask that any who come to live with us treat everyone with the same respect.


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## devinesanative (Jan 14, 2006)

Oh , Dear Muslim Bhai ,


Though muslims put lot of pressure on women to wear black cartridge over their body .

But , Muslim women not as humble as you think , they are also too hot n Sexy ...

Given a chance to them ... They will explode like a Atom Bomb...

This was in response to Platinum , Diamond and Gold member...


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## devinesanative (Jan 14, 2006)

thecoopes said:
			
		

> Salaamulaikum I just love that Islamic thought.
> 
> Hi my friend, for what its worth here is my take on it, in respect to an objective view of Islam.
> 
> ...


 

Dear Coopes ,


Though some always complain about the Western society corrupting the other societies , But , what I have observed that people have a natural instinct to get attracted to corrupt and corruption things , not to the good things which even may be in small quantities .


People say that in west people marry and divorce...


But , there are also some good people who have been together since their age of 11 or 13 and still maintaining their relationship. 

No , one forces any one to do or not to do , but its the people themselves decide whether accept good things or bad things.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 14, 2006)

Gurfateh



> Oh , Dear Muslim Bhai ,
> 
> 
> Though muslims put lot of pressure on women to wear black cartridge over their body .
> ...


 
Dear DS ,

You seem to be an exirianced person :}{}{}: 

is this you ersonal exiriance or did some friend of your told you this true thing. 

anyway bakri of al maujaroun left Uk after London Bombing as he was very brave with single hand.

Latter Bakri was arrested in middle east.
Das does not know what hapened next to him.

just visit the site of al mouhajroun again and it is under Jewish control.

There are still some elememts in UK Or India which use the resource of the system and people but want to destroy them or subdue them.
we call them Asteen Ke Samp ie snakes in cuffs.:down: 

But all Muslims are not Bad either.


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## devinesanative (Jan 16, 2006)

Oh Dear mind Reader ,

I am experienced without being experiencing anything.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 16, 2006)

Gurfateh

more elaborations about this statement are welcomed. ie Expirianced without expiriancing.


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## devinesanative (Jan 16, 2006)

When , by the grace of God we will somewhere meet , then we'll discuss about experience .

But rightnow let us awaken ourselves to the above Invitation .


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