# Why Sadh Sangat? Why Not Go It Alone?



## spnadmin (Nov 6, 2010)

*This thread is intended for a discussion of shabad vichaar. *

Below is a couplet from Raag Aaasa, first Mehl, on Ang 437 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The complete shabad is at this link

http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/437/line/20032



ਸਾਧ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath nadhar prabhoo sukh paaeiaa ||

In the Company of the Holy, and the Saints' Society, by God's Grace, peace is obtained.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਚੂਕੇ ਮੋਹ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
har kee bhagath rathae bairaagee chookae moh piaasaa ||

हरि की भगति रते बैरागी चूके मोह पिआसा ॥
The renunciates remain absorbed in devotional worship to the Lord; they are rid of emotional attachment and desire.


I wanted to begin with only this couplet, in the hope that others who discuss this topic would seek out the many other shabads where the idea of sangat is mentioned in Guru Granth. If you did that, the discussion could be very rich in insights. 

*Here is my question. As we continue on our journey to discover our "true identity" do we need sangat? Can this be a journey of the lonesome soul, a traveler without companions? *

Sub-questions.

_saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath _Is this wrongly understood in the plural?
_saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath_ Does this refer only to the company of Waheguru?
_bairaagee  
_ Does this imply that in being detached we must be unattached from the company of others on a similar journey?


Please ground your reply in gurbani.


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## sunmukh (Nov 6, 2010)

*Re: Why Saadhh Sangat? Why not go it alone?*

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

We have to be sure we are all referring to the same  meaning of sangat in SGGS ji. 

I can think of at least two, but there may be more.

There is the commonly appreciated meaning of sangat, this being akin to the body of people attending a gurdwara ( usually with a purpose of seeking enlightenment - thus allowing some to term that sangat as "holy" and hence a saadhsangat)  

There is also a body of souls focussed on the Lord but who are not physically met in the physical world, but can be visualised mentally when the mind is raised spiritually. They are referred to in the three intermediate khands, ( giaan khand, saram khand and karam khand)  between dharam khand and sachkhand. 

If one uses the former, then one is limited to searching for actual people who are at least as  wise as or as holy as oneself, in order to make progress. 
However the person sitting next to oneself on the bus, may be more holy than anyone in a gurdwara, and one may not know it. On the other hand one may sit all day long with a group of people in a diwan hall,  hoping they are focused on the Lord and can impart some of their knowledge. However this may not be the case. One could  make an assessment after attending a gurdwara regularly to see if ongoings in the gurdwara are shifting one towards God in any way, or if one is becoming attached to the gurdwara itself and its ongoings.  

If one uses the latter definition, and uses this in conjuction with the wealth of shabds in SGGS ji all progress is subject to one's own willingness to learn directly from the prime source of spiritual advice of all Sikhs, ie from SGGS ji. 

I personally prefer the latter, and seek that sangat. This choice is made after making prolonged attempts to attend daily, morning and evening at Gurdwaras. I found I did not grasp or contemplate the Gurus bani anywhere near as effectively as when I read for myself, and I also found it difficult to sit for extended periods on the floor. 

On P180, Guru Arjan Dev ji, advises one does not need to look outside, or elsewhere and that the "company of the holy" can be found by deep meditation, and for me this is sufficient vindication that the saadhsangat may be found through a sole journey.

Here is the shabd:


> ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
> Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
> ਆਨ ਰਸਾ ਜੇਤੇ ਤੈ ਚਾਖੇ ॥
> ...


 
Sat Sri Akal


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## findingmyway (Nov 6, 2010)

*Re: Why Saadhh Sangat? Why not go it alone?*



spnadmin said:


> Below is a couplet from Raag Aaas, first Mehl, on Ang 437 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The complete shabad is at this link
> 
> http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/437/line/20032
> 
> ...



Conducting a search I found 427 references to sangat. Searching for sadh sangat, there are 163 references. That for me is enough to show me the importance of having good sangat. Sangat is the people you associate with. Sadh sangat refers to those who inspire you and encourage you to progress.

From our lives, each of us can identify with this as commonsense. Your company infleuences you so if you keep good company, you will more likely be a good person. If your friends/family have bad habits, you are more likely to follow. Therefore, Guru Ji is encouraging us remain amongst people that will keep us grounded and on the right path.


For me sangat is anyone who fulfils this criteria. Many of my friends do much voluntry work. Whether they are Sikh or not I count them as my sangat as they are good people who are living for others. I also have many Sikh friends, which is important as together we can do Gurbani vichaar etc to understand Guru Ji's message. Both groups of people help me to walk on the Gurmukh's path :happykaur:

Within Sikhi, the concept of sangat is enshrined in the practice of holding regular divans in Gurdwara and in the concept of langar as food is a great way to bring people together. The theory is, going to the Gurdwara you are more likely to take interest in Gurbani. Sitting at home its very easy to get distracted and disconnected. That is human nature!


Sunmukh Ji,
Thank you for sharing the beautiful shabad. My interpretation of the highlighted lines is that do not listen to those other than your specially chosen Gurmukh sangat (not to ignore them in life but do not be influenced by others) and do not go to places where your sangat are not (eg pubs and clubs). Gurbani is written in couplets so the line above is related to the line about singing God's praises. This will help you find sangat rather than replace the need for sangat. Sangat is mentioned so many times with reference to people that I do not think it is possible to hide away without it. That would then be a sadhu lifestyle which has been criticised by Guru Ji.

SPN is one my greatest forms of sangat!!!
Jasleen kudihug


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## Ishna (Nov 7, 2010)

The closest I've come to real-life sangat has been at the Unitarian Universalist church in my town.  Does that count?

I've been unable to make Sikh friends in real-life (that is, beyond the Internet).  The couple who have made an effort to include me in gurdwara activities have never spoken about Sikhi past answering my questions on pronunciation.

I'm with Sunmukh -- I find it easier to connect to Waheguru when I'm alone and immersed in simran or studying Gurbani.  Guidance from this online sangat is the closest I come to Sikh sadh sangat.

As I've expressed in another post, sometimes I feel depressed because of all the references to "the Company of the Holy" (Sukhmani Sahib, for instance) when I can't really find any in real-life.  Makes me think "Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is all the holy company I need", but then, I wouldn't be here, or poking my nose in the UU church either.

I'm interested to hear other people's opinions as to what exactly constitutes "sadh sangat".

Ishna


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## spnadmin (Nov 7, 2010)

To intervene: There are two levels to the problem about the importance of sangat.  I would like to be clear about that. One level is the very  personal problem of finding sangat. That is not the intention of this thread. We can start a thread for that, and it would probably be useful.

If we focus on our personal disappointments, or agreeing or disagreeing with this member or the other, then the message of the shabad will be lost. The intended theme of this thread - in Sikh Sikhi Sikhism -  is aimed at finding out what Guru ji actually says about the importance of sangat. *What is the gurmat understanding?* Let's head in the direction of a vichaar of the shabad. Please post shabads with your reply and given an interpretation of it.
*
To discuss problems finding sangat we can go to this newly created thread
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33133-where-is-my-sangat.html#post136492*


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## sunmukh (Nov 7, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

There are many references to saadhsangat, the sat sangat and sangat in SGGS ji, just as Jasleen Kaur ji points out.

If I understand SPNadmin ji correctly, he (she?) is asking for discussion to be focussed upon whether the company of other like minded people is  essential when deliberating upon bani, and thinking about the creator Lord.

I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding,  if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose. 

On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:



> ਊਤਮ ਸੰਗਿਤ ਊਤਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
> ootam sangat ootam hovai.
> In the uplifting society, one is uplifted.
> ਗੁਣ ਕਉ ਧਾਵੈ ਅਵਗਣ ਧੋਵੈ ॥
> ...





> Without serving the Guru, celestial poise is not obtained. ||7||
> ​


​ 

However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation. 

It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani)  with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength. 

On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people) 



> ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> aasaa mehlaa 5.
> Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
> ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਆਤਮ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
> ...





> meets the True Guru, and obtains the Perfect Supreme Lord God. ||2||34||
> ​


​ 

Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds. It is often very overcomplicated, by unnecessary overlayering, or padding, and duties to perform now well established  practices. Possibly this may be due to a deep rooted sense of being dutiful and  respectful to Guru ji. This is indeed necessary, as it is to all fellow humans,  but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji.  IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in SGGS ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent. 

The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons.  The only permanent sangat is the saadhsangat, or satsangat. It  is a congregation of spiritually pure souls. It is  the true congregation that any sikh should seek to join, to fall at the feet of the Satguru, in order that one may receive the grace of the Lord. To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind). In such a way  intuitive awareness of the Lord will arise and the remembrance and kirtan will become automatic, or heart-felt. We then hope we will receive the Lord's grace, but will be happy with any decision whatsoever of His. He leads, we follow. He orders, we heed.  Nobody questions the Lord.  Hukam razai chalna. 

In a way, I am seeing in "Sikh" society a very high level of respect being afforded to Sikhi and its practices, and  an increasing level of  Guru Sahiban worship or even idolisation , but am not seeing evidence of the same or higher levels of respect being afforded to the creator Lord, yet only He and His court is true and permanant. Gurbani very clearly and repeatedly explains this. There is a most huge meaning to not being "Hindu or Mussalman", if one is seeking to lose complete emotional attachment to worldly affairs. Emotional attachment to Sikhi is no diffferent. Truthful practise is to be encouraged but emotional attachment to practises is not. The Guru of Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Lord. His sangat is not worldly. He sought and sought and sought but no humans could provide satisfactory answers. All his answers were from the Lord. This made him different from hindus and mussalmans, who turned only to pandits, qazis and ketthabas (books), and some did not even follow the ketthabas. It would be an ironic tragedy if Sikhs followed gyanis.granthis/wise persons(ie pandits) but failed to heed advice in SGGS ji. Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer,  karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual -  the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement. 

I hope I am not coming across in an arrogant and egotistical way, as I seriously do not intend to make out I am any sort of expert, but what I see is incredible levels of focus on the world and much less on the Lord.  I hope I have not hurt anybody's feelings, by writing a bit forcefully. For me though, it is very important to try to help people to recognise the simple pragmatic advice of Guru ji. It is very hard for some to see just how simple it is.

Sat Sri Akal


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## findingmyway (Nov 7, 2010)

sunmukh said:


> I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding,  if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose.
> 
> On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:
> 
> ...



All the Guru's frequently held audience with wise people from other faiths and they included bani by the bhagats. This shows me that it is not only Sikhs that are the sangat but anyone who holds God dear and is endeavouring to work for the good of all, anyone doing sarbat da bhalla. You do not have to agree with all in others faith but that does not mean you cannot both be spiritual in your own paths. The Guru's never said Sikhi was the only path but it is the most logical and dogma free path.



> On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people)



The many many references to sangat refer to people. I will post some examples soon as I have a lot on my plate at the moment. This is because the Guru's know what human nature is like. Without others around you to keep you focussed and thinking, you are more likely to wander or go astray. Also Guru Ji advocated a grisht jeevan and was against Sadhus hiding away from the world. Only by conquering temptation can we become Gurmukhs-not by running away from it. Even in Japji, Guru Ji emphasises this point with Chupai chup na howai, je lahi riha liv thar (forgive my transliteration, I'm not very good without Gurmukhi). This is not in support of introspection alone as it does not achieve anything. Introspection on many levels is also selfish as you are not helping the world around you.




> Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds.



But of you only go about your daily business you will not always stand up for others and do true sarbat da bhalla as why should you care as long as your spirituality is on track?



> but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji.IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is  the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and  intent.



Absolutely! So that is why sangat is important to help you understand Guru Ji's advice and how to implement it in your life. 



> The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons.



Life is also transient so should we disregard life and end it now? Everything takes effort as does finding sangat so we should always endeavour to find new sangat wherever we go. 



> To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind).



This is a small part of the Sikh way of life. We must endeavour to live the Gurmukh life and always do everything we can to help the downtrodden. Meditating and praying alone achieve nothing as many shabads say. 



> Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer,  karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual -  the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement.



But unless you take the steps onto the path of enlightenment, how can you possibly expect to become enlightened? Hukam is not a passive thing but we have to be proactive. Finding sangat is one of the proactive measures we can take. Sangat is not just a Gurdwara congregation. Just like the internet has made reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji possible, it has made connecting to sangat around the world possible.


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## spnadmin (Nov 7, 2010)

If we a looking for a gurmat working definition of sangat, and clarification regarding the importance of taking an active role in service to our fellow humans,  we can turn to Bhai Gurdas ji. The picture that emerges not one of  detaching from our companions in sangat on the soul's journey,

This is only one of several is Vaar 3, pauree 8. There are others.

੯ : ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਲਈ ਸਾਧਨ, ਦਸ਼ਾ ਤੇ ਵਰਤਨ

ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਲੀਐ।

pooraa satigur sati guramoukhi bhaaleeai.

पूरा सतिगुर सति गुरमुखि भालीऐ ।

The perfect Guru is truth incarnate who is realised by becoming gurmukh.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੧


ਪੂਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਲੀਐ।

pooree satigur mati sabadi samhaaleeai.

पूरी सतिगुर मति सबदि सम्हालीऐ ।

The desire of the true Guru is that the Word should be sustained;

 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੨

ਦਰਗਹ ਧੋਈਐ ਪਤਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਲੀਐ।

daragah dhoeeai pati haoumai jaaleeai.

दरगह धोईऐ पति हउमै जालीऐ ।

Burning the ego one will get honour in the court of Lord.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੩


ਘਰ ਹੀ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਬੈਸਣਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲੀਐ।

ghar hee jog jougati baisani dharamasaaleeai.

घर ही जोग जुगति बैसणि धरमसालीऐ ।

One should learn the technique of merging in the Lord by considering one’s home as the place for cultivating dharma.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੪


ਪਾਵਨ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਿ ਪਾਲੀਐ।

paavan mokh moukati gur sikhi paaleeai.

पावण मोख मुकति गुर सिखि पालीऐ ।

Liberation for them is certain who abide by the teaching of the Guru.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੫


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ।

antari praym bhagati nadari nihaaleeai.

अंतरि प्रेम भगति नदरि निहालीऐ ।

They having loving devotion in their heart remain jubliant.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੬

ਪਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਇਕ ਛਤ ਖਰੀ ਸੁਖਾਲੀਐ।

patisaahee ik chhati kharee soukhaaleeai.

पतिसाही इक छति खरी सुखालीऐ ।

Such people are emperors full of delight.

 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੭


ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਹਣ ਘਤਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਘਾਲੀਐ।

paanee peehanu ghati sayvaa ghaaleeai.

पाणी पीहणु घति सेवा घालीऐ ।

Becoming egoless they serve the sangat, congregation, by bringing water, grinding corn etc. for it.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੮


ਮਸਕੀਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਵਤਿ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀਐ ॥੮॥

masakeenee vichi vati chaalay chaaleeai ॥8॥

मसकीनी विचि वति चाले चालीऐ ॥८॥

In humility and joy they lead altogether distinct life.

The "distinct life" of a Sikh of the Guru does not come through separation from others who may be taking their journey with us. Nor does sangat here refer to anything other than those whom we serve and who worship with us.

---------------

*To discuss problems finding sangat we can go to this newly created thread
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/sikh-s...tml#post136492 (Where is my sangat?)*


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## eropa234 (Nov 7, 2010)

SSA

One who is in the companion of truth is in the company of all, in that one find the peace called god.


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## Ishna (Nov 7, 2010)

Is there a difference between sangat and *sadh* sangat then?

Members might also find the following article relevant:  http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart23.htm (True Association -- Saadh Sangat).

Ishna


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 8, 2010)

Ref:SAADHSANGATi

Any SANGATi can not be reffered as SAADH SANGATi for SANGATi to be reffered as SAADH SANGATi ,the presence of SAADH is must.
In Gurbaani in majority references the word refers to GUROO JOTi which at present 
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only.
It may pl be noted that in Gurbaani a word can have different meanings depending on context of the Shabad in which the word has been used.
*

The references to grammar and pronunciation have been removed, as per earlier requests, warnings and explanations. spnadmin*


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## gurbanicd (Nov 8, 2010)

1. Ang 373 Line 17 Raag Asa: Guru Arjan Dev
ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਸੁਨੀ ਇਹ ਸੋਇ ॥
khojath khojath sunee eih soe ||
खोजत खोजत सुनी इह सोइ ॥
By searching and seeking, I have heard this news


1. Ang 373 Line 17 Raag Asa: Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
saadhhasangath bin thariou n koe ||
साधसंगति बिनु तरिओ न कोइ ॥
that without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, no one swims across


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## spnadmin (Nov 8, 2010)

The question raised at the beginning of the thread is "Why go it alone?

T. Singh at http://www.gurbani.org has this to say. These are excerpts because he has specifically requested that entire articles not be copied and pasted.

First of all he likens sadhsangat to the idea of "true association." 

_I have searched my mind and body, through and through. How can
I meet my Darling Beloved God, O my mother? Joining the Satsangat,
the True Association, I* ask about the Path to God. In
that Congregation, God abides (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 94).* Coming into contact
with the philosophers’ stone, copper is changed; that copper is
transformed into gold. *In the society of godly souls, Kabeer is
changed; that Kabeer is transformed into God (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1158).*_*
*

The metaphor of the sandalwood tree is helpful.

_The value of sandalwood lies in its fragrance that spreads out far and wide.[/B] The aroma of sandalwood is so sublime that the lowly trees growing near sandalwood also become fragrant just like it. ....
_

It is sangat that helps us to overcome our attachments and ego.

_* ਚੰਦਨ ਵਾਸੁ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਵੇੜੀ ਕਿਵ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ ਕਾਢਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਕਰਾਰਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਛੇਦਿ ਛੇਦਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੩॥: Chandhan vaas bhuiangam verree kiv mileeai chandhan leejai || Kaadhi kharrag gur giaan karaaraa bikh shedi shedi rasu peejai ||3||: Drawing out the mighty sword of the God's spiritual wisdom, I slaughter and kill the poisonous snake (of Maya's delusion), and drink in the Sweet Nectar of Divine Name ||3|| (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1324).
_
...
_    * ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਉ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ਕੀਆ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਮਨਿ ਪਈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥: Saadhsangat kaou vaariaa jeeou keeaa kurabaan. Jis te sojhee mani paee miliaa purakh sujaan:  * I am devoted to the Saadhsangat, the Company of the Holy; I sacrifice my soul to them. Through them, understanding (ਸੂਝ) has entered my mind, and I have met the All-knowing God (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 43).*
_
....
T. Singh goes on to define sadhsangat.
_
Various expressions exist that are virtually synonymous to Saadh-Sangat. Such expressions include Good Friendship, Noble Friendship, Company of the True and the Wise, Inner Communion, Abidance in the Self, Satsang, Gurmukh Sang, Saadhoo Sang, Sant Sang, Satsangat, Sachee Sangat, Gur Sangat, Uttam Sangat, Saadh Sabhaa, Daivee Sangat, Sant Mandlee, True Association, Company of the Awakened, Company of the Enlightened beings, Company of the True Devotees, Company of the Holy, Company of the God-centered, Company of the Godly or God-Conscious, Company of the God-faced, Company of the Naam-immersed, Holy Congregation, Holy Assembly, Holy Association, Company of  the Truth, Company of Saintly Souls, Company of the Spiritual Beings, Company of the Good Association, etc._
...
Then he goes on to describe the attributes of sadhsangat

...t_he Gurbani also provides us with numerous redemptive attributes of Saadh Sangat. A few of these divine attributes are summarized as follows. For example, in the True Association:_

    * _*The joy of God's Kirtan is obtained (1204).
    * Prema-Bhagti or loving devotion of God wells up (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 384).
    * One is rid of false ego (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1181).
    * God's Name tastes sweet (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 272).
    * God's Name is churned (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 587)
    * The treasure of Naam is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
    * Hari-Ras or God's elixir is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 374).
    * Practice of Naam-Simran or God's meditation becomes easy (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 262).
    * The God's Name abides in the mind (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1417).
    * Spiritual awakening takes place (215).
    * Mind's filth is removed (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 520).
    * Mind becomes calm and stable (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
    * Fear and doubts depart (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 193).
    * One gets to drink Amrit or Lord's Name Nectar (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 299).
    * One become free of sinful reactions (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
    * Five vices are restrained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
    * The sense of duality vanish (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 254).
    * Freedom from death and birth is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1146).
    * Discriminating intellect and spiritual wisdom are attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 377).
    * Evil-mindedness departs (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 503).
    * God's Path is found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1122).
    * One learns to serve (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1182).
    * Eternal happiness and bliss is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
    * Freedom from sorrows is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 461).
    * All places of pilgrimage and ablution are realized (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 965).
    * The true Heaven is found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 742).
    * Faith becomes strong (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 981).
    * Animosity departs (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
    * True friends, intimates and helpers are found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 453).
    * "Stable Abode" is found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1146).
    * The state of desirelessness is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 913).
    * Contentment is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 889).
    * Mental peace is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 256).
    * Sinners become Pure and Accepted (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 861).
    * Mortal becomes Beauteous, Wise and Valiant (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 531).
    * The stage of absorption in devotion is attained (217).
    * Search for God becomes priority and reality (848).
    * Understanding of God's inexpressible gospel is realized (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 997).
    * Darkness of ignorance is dispelled and salvation is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 675).
    * Kundilini is awakened (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1402).
    * God or the real Self is Realized (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 607).
*_
....
And he continues with an outline of how to recognize Satsang

_Satsang has more than one form. For example, to keep the presence of the Satguru (True Guru, Self, God, etc.) in the mind is a Satsang in itself. A congregation assembled to hear Spiritual talk or chanting is also a Satsang. To hear Spiritual teachings is also referred to as Satsang. Other forms of Satsang may include Kirtan in the company of true devotees, discussing or deliberating spiritual teachings, thinking and contemplating on such spiritual teachings, meditational worship of God, reflecting on the Shabad, etc. The highest form of the Satsang is Soul's linking with the Shabad or Naam. In summary, all forms of Satsang can be summed up as follows:
_

http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart23.htm

Do we get any insights from these passages in answer to the quesiton, " Why go it alone?"


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 8, 2010)

Ref.SAADHSANGATi

It would be worthwnile to consider ASTAPADI No7 of SUKHMANI in SGGS ji.pp271-272.This ASTAPADI encompasses  the best answer to the question in consideration'

SALOKu:     AGAM AGAADHi PARBRAHMu SOE,JO Jo KAHE Su MUKTAA HOE
                 SUNi MEETA NANAKu BINWANTAA,SAADH JANAA KEE ACHARAJ KATHAA

This ASTAPADI is exclusively related to SAADH and SAADHSANGATi

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sunmukh (Nov 8, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam



> _Satsang has more than one form. For example, to keep the presence of the Satguru (True Guru, Self, God, etc.) in the mind is a Satsang in itself. A congregation assembled to hear Spiritual talk or chanting is also a Satsang. To hear Spiritual teachings is also referred to as Satsang. Other forms of Satsang may include Kirtan in the company of true devotees, discussing or deliberating spiritual teachings, thinking and contemplating on such spiritual teachings, meditational worship of God, reflecting on the Shabad, etc. The highest form of the Satsang is Soul's linking with the Shabad or Naam._




Thank you for this SPNadmin ji.

I'm pleased I am not out on a limb. At least there is one other person who recognises the linking of the soul with the shabd is a form of satsang. 


> " Why go it alone?"


 
No-one has to go it alone. It is of immense value to discuss one's understanding and join in congregational worsship.

However, we come into the world on our own, and we leave on our own. I don't think Gurbani supports particular sangats as Gods "chosen people", who by virtue of associating with one form of sangat will automatically be selected. 
Karma is individual. It is not associated with whole bodies of people. 
What an individual does and engages in is what counts. After that there is also the concept of God's grace. Combined it becomes  immaterial whether an individual sits with a physical sangat or not. As long as the individual is remembering God and seeking to join the "saadhsanghat" (in a spiritual sense) he/she will uplift him/her self and also have an effect on others around him/her self.

Going it alone, does have benefits. One knows oneself. If one reflects upon Gurbani, or even on just God, one attains an understanding which is "untainted" with others opinions. It is the understanding God gives one, and not the understanding of another person. It is pure Hukam. God cannot mislead. If one cannot trust God to provide a true understanding then there is no need to bother at all. 

Sat Sri Akal


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## roopsidhu (Nov 8, 2010)

SSA,
On the path of spirtuality,  its difficult to reach to the destination without sadh sangat.
Lets put it as floowings

Worship of god is very personal and has to be performed by the one personally, lonely.
Worship can not be perfomed without love (prem). Gurbani referes to this love as "Bhao".
The Bhao= love can not be produced without sadh sangat. This is what gurbani states.
swD sMgiq ibnw Bwau nhI aUpjY Bwv ibnu Bgiq nhI hoie qyrI ] khY rivdwsu iek bynqI hir isau pYj rwKhu rwjw rwm myrI ]2]2] {pMnw 694}
Gurbani says that without sadh sangat "bhao"  is not produced and without bhao ( love) the worship can not be done, hence sadh sangat is a basic need of the worship.The importance of sadh sangat is very clear from the above lines of Gurbani.
Roopsidhu


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## seeker3k (Nov 8, 2010)

Sangat (a group of people) can inspire you and motivates you in the task u have taken up. 

Ultimately it is you who have to find the truth. It is the journey that count. The journey is always walked alone. No one can help you go there.

Most of the religions encourage one to seek sangat. The mistake people in the sangat makes they only promote their own sangat. The TRUTH is not one religion’s property.

Ishna ask good question, Sure the people in the Unitatrian Church is sangat too. You can learn from them or any one. You can even learn from the thieves if you are willing to learn. But the journey is going to be alone. Only one thing will be with you is NAAM word.

Shabad hai guru,guru hai bani. It is not the physical guru. It is you who have to free your self from the maze you have created by your self. Here I don’t mean you it is not personal.

Why people promote their sangat? Many believe is we bring new people into their group the Lord will be happy with them n bless them for the good deed. Others want to some one t o bring into their sangat is for power so that can count on your support in case they need your support to get elected. 


Roopsidhu:

Why God need our worship? What you are saying if one live alone he can not have bhao?
I don’t think God want us to worship him.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 8, 2010)

SEEKER3KJi,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
I think what you have described has the reference of present state of affairs.Inthis context you may be right.But there is another view of situation in the reference of SAADHSANGATi being reffered in Gurbaani.
For a moment you think what is need for a child to be sent to school and thereafter for  higher education.Can any child can gain knowledge of his own?.With Gurbaani we have relationship of GUROO-SIKHu .If you think this context you may have some different view about the concept of SAADHSANGATi in Gurbaani.
Otherwise your views hold good.
With best wishes ,
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Nov 8, 2010)

sunmukh ji

When you word your insight in these terms 





> don't think Gurbani supports particular sangats as Gods "chosen people", who by virtue of associating with one form of sangat will automatically be selected.



Then you have moved a distance from your earlier statements. Nothing wrong with that, if it means that clarification of an original point is concerned.

IMHO where I see a problem is this. A person may state that sangats they have contact with have not helped them spiritually. That person's experiences cannot be generalized to _ vichaar _of the meaning of sadh sangat as it is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or in terms of its importance to spiritual growth and development.


That is a frequent complaint people have - I cannot find sangat, therefore, Guru Nanak must have meant that there is no worthy sangat other than the sangat of Naam. People are temporal therefore only the eternal Naam is truly sangat. Guru Nanak did not say that.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 8, 2010)

REf: SAADHSANGATi

SAADHSANGATi has two aspects .One is SPRITUAL where one has to travel alone.Other aspect is SOCIAL where collective efforts are directed in spreading the true message of Gurbaani words.Now How we are succesful in promoting the true message of Gurbaani Words it is different matter .But there is defininitely a Social outlook invilved in the concept of SAADHSANGATi.

In this respect it important to understand the SATSANGATi has been categorically defined in Gurbaani.Similarly there is reference of SANTSANGATi.So all these references have relevent meanings .these must be understood more carefully before any conclusion can be drawn for the question under consideration

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## gurbanicd (Nov 8, 2010)

knowledge, experiences and information in any field is passed on from one generation to other.
 SADHSANGAT "the company of blessed dynamic souls" is also required  for spiritual experiences and advancement.

bhula chukan di khima


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 8, 2010)

gurbanicd Ji,
Divine Greetings,

Most appropriate and excellent meassage on the concept of SAADH SANGATi

With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## sunmukh (Nov 8, 2010)

spnadmin said:


> IMHO where I see a problem is this. A person may that sangats they have contact with have not helped them spiritually. That person's experiences cannot be generalized to _vichaar _of the meaning of sadh sangat as it is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or in terms of its importance to spiritual growth and development.
> 
> 
> That is a frequent complaint people have - I cannot find sangat, therefore, Guru Nanak must have meant that there is no worthy sangat other than the sangat of Naam. People are temporal therefore only the eternal Naam is truly sangat. Guru Nanak did not say that.


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

SPNadmin ji, I apologise for any confusion.

Let me make clear I am not advocating abandoning the sangat people engage with. eg when they meet in Gurdwaras, or in a gurbani vichaar session, or when joining in, in a gurdwara's seva projects. or living in a community. There are very important benefits to be gained from these.  A major benefit is social.  There are also opportunities to improve civil behaviour and these are felt at both individual and community level. There are also opportunities to improve spiritual understanding/wisdom (giaan).

I was particularly emphasising the spiritual aspect of a saadhsanghat as the original question(s) did ask whether the journey can be completed by a lone soul, ie without accompanying humans. I am sure it can be, but of course it does not have to be without others. 

You also asked whether we must be unattached from the company of others. I did not adddress this, as I assumed everybody would see and/or know they do not have to become hermits. I doubt if anybody who knows anything at all about Sikhi would try to do this in today's society.

People are indeed temporal. They live in this world, and most would like to take an active role in society. It is good for them that they do so, (as it reduces liklihood of mental conditions like depression etc and also makes life interesting) and  it is good for society that they do so, as they can assist others.  In this manner , "sarbat da bhalla" comes into play, and IMHO the "sarbat" refers to the whole of society. One would not be  using terms like this if one was going to live in an isolated cave . 

I hope I have clarified this. Seeking and maintaining good company/sangat is to be recommended and encouraged. 


As I stated at the beginning of my first post on this thread, each person needs to know exactly what sangat means to them, and what they feel Guru ji is referring to when the term "sangat", appears in shabds, and moreover when "saadhsangat" and "satsangat" appear in shabds. 

They need to know this before thinking about how useful their own perception of such terms are  on their  journey. If they don't know it will be like having a driver hoping to get  from LA to a specific address in New York, but with no mapbook, and no guide or previous experience. 

It is possible some may set out, but will  take a wrong turning at the first junction. Some may realise they are not getting anywhere. They maintain hope and faith, but will still put great effort in reading dark poorly lit signs on side of the road, (Gurbani they have not studied before, or do not follow) or ask people on the side who may speak in a foreign language or who in innocent ignorance may also send them in the opposite direction (some gianis/granthis), or may stop at dhabas on the side and see that as fulfillment (langar halls/kitchens), or get fed up with potholes and bumps (gurdwara/panth politics and power plays). Some may get very attached to these side-issues,  and forget they even had a destination (union with the Lord and liberation from the cycle of birth and death).

Studying Gurbani, reflecting upon it, and gaining an intuitive understanding of terms like Satguru, and Saadsangat, Satgur prasad, are fundamental, if one is hoping to  reach the goal through one's efforts rather than rely solely on God's grace. A little reading up, and personal reflection, provides this (exactly in the same way vichaar in a dharmsala/gurdwara/cyber sanghat can). One can understand the goal, one can understand the map, and the Lord has provided a fully fuelled up vehicle, in the guise of a human form. 

On top of this, there are overlayers which all affect just how useful the concept of sangat is in this aim of reaching this destination. There is the grace of the Lord, the hukam of the Lord, the concept of an inner shrine, the concept of satguru as one who takes one to the 10th gate, the all-pervasiveness and ever-present close proximity of the Lord. These all interplay with the concept of sangat, and reduce just how critical it is to engage in a physical sangat. When one can put faith in the Lord being with one all the time, then He is surely the supreme sangat to interact with and listen to? One just needs to put trust in Him, ( in effect surrender to Him), and therefore trust Him implicitly. He will lead one to the destination if He wishes to, and one should accept His decisions.  Having done this, this leaves one completely liberated from the bonds to and duties towards any religion, and opens the doors to engage in fruitful seva to the physical sangat, and living as a householder. I believe this is what SGGS ji is suggesting.

Sat Sri Akal


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## sunmukh (Nov 8, 2010)

roopsidhu said:


> SSA,
> On the path of spirtuality, its difficult to reach to the destination without sadh sangat.
> 
> Lets put it as floowings
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Roopsidhu ji, I agree with each of your first two points but  please explain what you understand the saadhsangat is, in this line you have quoted.  To me, it would make a difference as to whether point 3 is agreeable or not.  

NB:  It would also help all members who cannot read Gurmukhi easily (like me - I can only read in Gurmukhi very slowly),  if a tranliteration and/or translation is provided, perhaps also with a page number) winkingmunda

Sat Sri Akal


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## roopsidhu (Nov 8, 2010)

SSA,
Seeker ji I have not said that god needs our worship. And its not me who says "sadh sangat bin bhao na upje" its gurbani's qoutation. Please read the statements of others before commenting.
Roopsidhu


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## roopsidhu (Nov 8, 2010)

SSA,
Sanmukh ji the translation and page numbers are given below
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਭਾਉ ਨਹੀ ਊਪਜੈ ਭਾਵ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਤੇਰੀ ॥ 
साधसंगति बिना भाउ नही ऊपजै भाव बिनु भगति नही होइ तेरी ॥ 
Sāḏẖsangaṯ binā bẖā▫o nahī ūpjai bẖāv bin bẖagaṯ nahī ho▫e ṯerī. 
Without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, love for the Lord does not well up; without this love, Your devotional worship cannot be performed.
SGGS ji ang number 694
And I understand the sadhsangat as the company of the holy or the company of the devotees.
Roopsidhu


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## sunmukh (Nov 8, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Is there a difference between sangat and *sadh* sangat then?
> 
> Members might also find the following article relevant: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart23.htm (True Association -- Saadh Sangat).
> 
> Ishna


 
Ek Onkaar Sat Naam

Thank you Ishna ji, and SPNadmin ji,  for this link. 
The page is well worth reading . 

Ishna, the article does go into the difference between internal and external satsang. As to a diiference between satsang and saadh sangat, I think you will have to decide for yourself. I would say the first is external sangat, and the latter is internal sangat, but the article goes over it much better than I can express. 

Sat Sri Akal


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## sunmukh (Nov 8, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Sorry Findingmyway/ Jasleen Bhen ji, I missed your post, which included a couple of questions addressed to me:

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by *sunmukh* 

 
_I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding, if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose. _

_On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:_

_However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation. _

_It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani) with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength._

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
All the Guru's frequently held audience with wise people from other faiths and they included bani by the bhagats. This shows me that it is not only Sikhs that are the sangat but anyone who holds God dear and is endeavouring to work for the good of all, anyone doing sarbat da bhalla. You do not have to agree with all in others faith but that does not mean you cannot both be spiritual in your own paths. The Guru's never said Sikhi was the only path but it is the most logical and dogma free path.

The point I was trying to make was that God's grace is over-riding. 



> jay tis nadar na aavee ta vaat na puchhai kay.
> 
> still, if the Lord does not bless you with His Glance of Grace, then who
> cares? What is the use?


(Page: 2, Line: 15, Jap, Author: Guru Nanak Dev)​
 
Gurus and Bhagats held such audiences and discussions, but the same is not generally true of their disciples today. I agree with your comments though, and would say that it is also worthwhile discussing with people who do not believe in God at all or do not believe in sarbat da bhalla. It firms up my resolve to not have the same attitude. Errors, even in others,  help to avoid complacency and arrogance.

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The many many references to sangat refer to people. I will post some examples soon as I have a lot on my plate at the moment. This is because the Guru's know what human nature is like. Without others around you to keep you focussed and thinking, you are more likely to wander or go astray. Also Guru Ji advocated a grisht jeevan and was against Sadhus hiding away from the world. Only by conquering temptation can we become Gurmukhs-not by running away from it. Even in Japji, Guru Ji emphasises this point with Chupai chup na howai, je lahi riha liv thar (forgive my transliteration, I'm not very good without Gurmukhi). This is not in support of introspection alone as it does not achieve anything. Introspection on many levels is also selfish as you are not helping the world around you.

 I don't think you need to make the quotes about sangat. I know they exist. The issue, for me,  is whether they all refer to people,  or mostly to spiritual bodies. You have nothing to be forgiven for, and I have no power to forgive anyway. I completely disagree with you with regards to introspection. It is a result of introspection that self-realisation can occur, and one can recognise one's primal origins, one's mool. 



> apnai beechaar asvaaree keejai.
> I made self-reflection my mount,
> 
> sahj kai paavrhai pag Dhar leejai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
> and in the stirrups of intuitive poise, I placed my feet. ||1||Pause||



(Page: 329, Line: 10, Raag: Gaurhee, Author: Saint Kabir)​
 
and



> jaa moo pasee hath mai piree mahijai naal.
> When I look within my being, I find that my Beloved is with me.


(Page: 1095, Line: 10, Raag: Maaroo, Author: Guru Arjan Dev)​
 
(there is more, and I can provide quotes if required; Naam Simran is also inextricably related to this, when Naam is associated with the self whilst doing simran- the aim being to form that union, rather than to see the Lord as separate)

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

But of you only go about your daily business you will not always stand up for others and do true sarbat da bhalla as why should you care as long as your spirituality is on track?

The comment about going about one's daily business was intended to mean continuing with one's daily tasks instead of withdrawing from society. This includes any and all compassionate endeavours. Thinking of the One, should lead to destruction of ego and removal of other 4 evils. This should automatically lead to a compassionate outlook. One cannot rule out the need to put in effort to break the cycle of reincarnation. Even charity giving and assisting others has to be ranked below efforts to please the Lord.



> gobind milan kee ih tayree baree-aa.
> This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.
> avar kaaj tayrai kitai na kaam.
> Nothing else will work.
> ...


(Page: 12, Line: 8, Raag: Aasaa, Author: Guru Arjan Dev)​
 



Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji.IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Absolutely! So that is why sangat is important to help you understand Guru Ji's advice and how to implement it in your life. 

 Agreed. Engaging with a cyber sangat is of great value.In over 40 years of attendance at Gurdwaras I have not learned anywhere near as much as I have come to understand about SGGS ji and the sikh concepts embedded therein in the last two years. Up till then I had learned largely only of practices, and how to abide by them, and of sikh history. 

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Life is also transient so should we disregard life and end it now? Everything takes effort as does finding sangat so we should always endeavour to find new sangat wherever we go. 

Life is a God given opportunity, to meet the Lord and end the cycle of birth and death, to reach a permanent state. It would be foolish to end it, but even ending it is in the hands of the Lord (Akhan Jor - Japji Sahib).
The spiritual satsangat in the Lord's darbar is the one I seek, and I hope to continue putting in effort and seeking it until I find it, with the Lord's grace.

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind). </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
This is a small part of the Sikh way of life. We must endeavour to live the Gurmukh life and always do everything we can to help the downtrodden. Meditating and praying alone achieve nothing as many shabads say. 

Whoa !  This is a bit of statement. 
a) Living the Gurmukh life  - please give me the name of one living Gurmukh, that I may follow that Gurmukhs lifestyle. Gurmukhs are one in millions, and may be our non-sikh neighbour but will not necessarily know it.  We do indeed endeavour to _become _Gurmukhs, but that is not so easy. I can only hope to get to that stage, but until then, will follow the best guide, this being SGGS ji. 



> gurmukh banee barahm hai sabad milaavaa ho-ay.
> The Word of the Gurmukh is God Himself. Through the Shabad, we merge in Him.





> (Page: 39, Line: 5, Raag: Sriraag, Author: Guru Amar Das)
> ​





and 



> ko-ee gurmukh sajan jay milai mai dasay parabh guntaas.
> If I meet the Gurmukh, my Spiritual Friend, he will show me God, the
> Treasure of Excellence.


(Page: 40, Line: 4, Raag: Sriraag, Author: Guru Ram Das)​


b) Meditating and praying is not useful ?? It only becomes pointless if one still does not receive the Lord's grace, but this is out of one's hands anyway. SGGS ji resounds with advice to meditate, to remember the Lord 24-7, and to sing the Lord's kirtan.
Reading Sukhmani Sahib may help you to believe this. 


and together:



> ghat ghat vaajai kinguree an-din sabad subhaa-ay.
> In each and every heart the Music of the Lord's Flute vibrates, night and
> day, with sublime love for the Shabad.
> virlay ka-o sojhee pa-ee gurmukh man samjhaa-ay.
> ...


(Page: 62, Line: 15, Raag: Sriraag, Author: Guru Nanak Dev)​
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer, karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual - the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
But unless you take the steps onto the path of enlightenment, how can you possibly expect to become enlightened? Hukam is not a passive thing but we have to be proactive. Finding sangat is one of the proactive measures we can take. Sangat is not just a Gurdwara congregation. Just like the internet has made reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji possible, it has made connecting to sangat around the world possible.

Fully agreed. I am trying hard, but should try even harder.

Sat Sri Akal


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## findingmyway (Nov 8, 2010)

Sunmukh Ji,
I think we've misunderstood each other in some respects!! :blushhh:
I read from your emphasis on introspection that you were advocating enough. As shown in the article posted by Ishna Ji, both internal and external sangat's are vital. My reference to Gurmukh's was not to say I knw any-who am I to say who is and who isn't-only Waheguru knows. However, my endeavour is to become a Gurmukh and I know how much external sangat helps me in this regard as explained in the other related thread created my spnadmin ji. If we're on the same page that's great! I have also talked about the transience of sangat in the other thread. Transient sangat does not necessarily invalidate the value of that sangat was the point I was trying to make. Life is very precious and so is sangat as humans are very much influenced by those around them.

I am not saying meditating and praying is not useful-not at all. However, I believe mediation/simran/singing kirtan is only one part of naam japna. As unless we implement Guru Ji's advice into our lives and mold ourselves around this all the prayers in the world will acheive nothing. However, this has been discussed on other threads and I do not wish to deviate from the topic-I just wanted to clear up misunderstandings.

Thank you for your response. Hope that is easier to understand where I am coming from!
Best wishes,
Jasleen


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 8, 2010)

SAADHSANGATi
In Gurbaani SAADHSANGATi clearly has two references

1....First reference is for the GUROOJOTi and this relates to the spritualty part for journey alone  and also when persons are together in presence of GUROO JOTi at present SGGS Ji.

2...Second reference is mentionted for getting together with SAADHJANAA.This aspect of SANGATi is well defined in ASTAPADi 07 of SUKHMANI pp271/272 in SGGS Ji.

In Gurbaani who can be reffered as SAADH JAN is well defined .Now a days it is rather difficult to find out such persons.

So under present situation getting together in presence of SGGS Ji constitutes SAADHSANGATi irrespectine of the deifinition of SAADH JANA.
This is such a great quality of the presence of GUROO JOTi i.e SGGS ji.

Thus there is significance of both types os SANGATi mentioned as above.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## pritpal_singh (Nov 9, 2010)

WJKK WJKF,
Pardon myself a neech, but whatever mercy Waheguru has had on me, I would like a quick word. Sadh Sangat means company of sadhu. Sadhu means one who has achieved the ultimate goal of life. Who bigger a sadhu the Waheguru himself the greatest of all sadhus. Now since he or his naam resides in every being, means he is always with us i.e we are always in the company of sadh sangat. This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness. 
So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat.


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## gurbanicd (Nov 10, 2010)

pritpal_singh said:


> WJKK WJKF,
> Pardon myself a neech, but whatever mercy Waheguru has had on me, I would like a quick word. Sadh Sangat means company of sadhu. Sadhu means one who has achieved the ultimate goal of life. Who bigger a sadhu the Waheguru himself the greatest of all sadhus. Now since he or his naam resides in every being, means he is always with us i.e we are always in the company of sadh sangat. This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
> So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat.



dear ji

your quote "So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat."

This keep remembering continuously is not possible ( in general) without SADH SANGAT.the company of blessed dynamic souls.

in other words  it is not so easy to keep continuous remembering waheguru.

great are those who do so.


bhulan chukan di khima


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## sunmukh (Nov 10, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam



gurbanicd said:


> dear ji
> 
> your quote "So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat."
> 
> ...


 
Gurbanicd ji, it is not at all easy, but I believe it is the aim. As Pritpal Singh ji states, we are always in this highest form of saadhsangat, with Waheguru, but don't realise it, until we receive His grace.

If we work to remove levels of ego added on over time since birth, then we can hope to realise the true saadhsangat. Until then we are only engaged with rearranging and modifying our perceptions, also based on perceptions, which are based on perceptions and so on and on, back in time. The Shabd is the Word, and from the Shabd ensues all creation. When we realise the Shabd all new perceptions can form, which can displace previous stumbling blocks. Until then we are only playing with old perceptions, stuck in glue of ego. First step is to be prepared and/or willing to abandon any or all perceptions, with any  or all associated practices, if they are non-productive or non-satisfying. One has to be willing to become carefree, in order to become carefree.   If that willingness is not there to allow that to  happen, then ego's grip is too strong, to realise the Shabd, and one will continue to live in fear of what will happen if something is not continued. The fear of death will remain. 

eg

P33:



> ਿਸਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
> 
> sireeraag mehlaa 3.
> 
> ...



 
Sat Sri Akal


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 10, 2010)

Ishna said:


> The closest I've come to real-life sangat has been at the Unitarian Universalist church in my town. Does that count?
> 
> I've been unable to make Sikh friends in real-life (that is, beyond the Internet). The couple who have made an effort to include me in gurdwara activities have never spoken about Sikhi past answering my questions on pronunciation.
> 
> ...


Let us first of all know who is saadh that can warrant us His grace. If we go through various versus of gurbani we will find it is the supreme virtues('satgur' - sach da gian) only that can warrant us His grace. That is why in the same sabd it is mentioned how rare of those who can conquer their ego and cultivate supreme virtues. SGGS.437.19.

Now let us check another sabd of Guru tegh Bahadur, 'paanch tat ko tan racheio jaano chatur sujan' SGGS 1427- Over here panch is not five but supreme virtues and those who are able to cultivate supreme virtues like humility, devotion, compassion, sincerety in our hearts (and create 'durlabh maanukh deh') are known as intelligent. So these supreme virtues are our company that gurbani is asking us to develop within us. Unless, 'jeh teh upji teh mili sachi preet smahu' the soul is blended again from where it orignited the mission is not accomplished. It is absorbed through the love of supreme virues. As guru sahib tells us, raam ratan tab paaeye jao pahily tajeh sareer The jewel of supreme viretues is obtained, until mortal gives up attachment originited from ego which is polluted with vikars. sggs.1366.3.

Now let see what gurbani tells us regarding those companion we normally associate ourselves, 'sangh sakha sabh taj gaey koeu na nibheeyo saath, kahu nanak eh beepat meh tek eik raghunaath' - my associate and companion (kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ankar) whom I have given so much importance and given shelter throughout my life have not warranted me any grace but deserted me at difficult time. this is the tragedy that I have faith and trust only on God. sggs 1429.8.

best regards 
sahni mohinder


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## pritpal_singh (Nov 10, 2010)

Dear Gurbanicd, 

Why don’t we realize that all souls (including the blessed dynamic souls) have emanated from the supreme soul, and it is on that paramatma that we have to concentrate.
You say it is not possible to remember Waheguru always. But Guruji says that nothing is possible with your efforts. You are nothing, your efforts are nothing. First this has to be engraved in our mind that we are nothing and we are not capable of any effort. It is only his meher, his blessings that if he even manage to think about him, remember him.
Even if today we are discussing these spiritual aspects, why don't we realise that we are lucky. How many are so lucky?
In this age where self-ego is at it’s peak, true saints are few and far between-very difficult to find. So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).
This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
Pardon again.


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## sunmukh (Nov 10, 2010)

pritpal_singh said:


> Dear Gurbanicd,
> 
> Why don’t we realize that all souls (including the blessed dynamic souls) have emanated from the supreme soul, and it is on that paramatma that we have to concentrate.fficeffice" /><?"urn:<img src=" />
> You say it is not possible to remember Waheguru always. But Guruji says that nothing is possible with your efforts. You are nothing, your efforts are nothing. First this has to be engraved in our mind that we are nothing and we are not capable of any effort. It is only his meher, his blessings that if he even manage to think about him, remember him.
> ...


 
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

I am honoured to be able to read your wise words. Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal


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## gurbanicd (Nov 10, 2010)

DEAR PRITPAL JI
"So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).

We don't have to waste out time in search of a sadhu BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST.

4. Ang 738 Line 19 Raag Suhi: Guru Arjan Dev
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਖਸ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
kahu naanak prabh bakhas kareejai ||
कहु नानक प्रभ बखस करीजै ॥
Says Nanak, please forgive me, God."

10. Ang 739 Line 1 Raag Suhi: Guru Arjan Dev
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥੪॥
kar kirapaa mohi saadhhasang dheejai ||4||
करि किरपा मोहि साधसंगु दीजै ॥४॥
Have Mercy upon me, and bless me with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||4||

to best of knowledge it is almost impossible to reach higher stages without help of the blessed souls (MURSHID)

ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਉ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ॥: Gurmukh so kar dosatee satgur saou laai chit: Make friends with the Gurmukhs, and focus your consciousness on the Satguru (sggs 1421).

BHULAN CHUKAN DI KHIMA


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## spnadmin (Nov 10, 2010)

Moderator's interruption at this point. I am not reading pritpal_singh ji's words as endorsement to  "go it alone" in reply to the thread title. Are you  not saying something pritpal ji about a different understanding of sangat?

Could the choice to go on our journey in the company of others versus going it alone something of an oversimplification?


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## pritpal_singh (Nov 11, 2010)

Dear Gurbanicd,

You are absolutely right that WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST. This request in our religion in the ARDASS- As guruji says ARDASS is on of the best ways to communicate with Waheguru, and we should always use this tool in all aspects of our life. The humble ardass uttered shall be heard-rest assured. Ardass also is another way of remembering paramatma. 
Also you talk about blessed souls (murshid) without whose help one can't reach higher stages. I just wanted to say that nos soul can help you without the hukam of the supreme soul. So why try to catch the ear in a roundabout way when we can hold it straight by requesting (as you say) the help from the supreme paramatma himself. As guruji says : 'jab eh jaane mein kick karta tab lab garabh joon mein phirta' i.e till we believe we are doing something we shall not be free of the birth-death cycle. Similarly Guruji advises us to break free of DUALITY i.e. believing that someone else other than Waheguru can help us. Everything is under his hukam. We all are his slaves. We can't even take a breath without his meher, then how is it possible that someone can help somebody. It is always he who is helping all of us.
Pardon


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## Ishna (Nov 11, 2010)

(I'm not so good at keeping up with intense discussion so please pardon me if my post is out of sync with the thread.)

I found this shabad today while looking for something totally unrelated.  I like it when that happens.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=734&L=4&id=31515

On it's own, with my base understanding, I interpret this as saying Waheguru is ones Sat Sangat.  The most pertinent lines:

 ਜਿਥੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਆਰਾਧੀਐ  ਤਿਥੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਮਿਤੁ  ਸਹਾਈ  ॥
 Wherever the Lord is worshipped in adoration, there the Lord becomes one's friend and helper.

ਗੁਰ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਤੇ  ਹਰਿ  ਮਨਿ  ਵਸੈ  ਹੋਰਤੁ  ਬਿਧਿ  ਲਇਆ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ॥੧॥
By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to dwell in the mind; He cannot be obtained in any other way. ||1||

ਹਰਿ  ਧਨੁ  ਸੰਚੀਐ  ਭਾਈ  ॥
So gather in the wealth of the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny,

*ਜਿ  ਹਲਤਿ  ਪਲਤਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਹੋਇ  ਸਖਾਈ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
so that in this world and the next, the Lord shall be your friend and companion. ||1||Pause||*

 ਸਤਸੰਗਤੀ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਧਨੁ  ਖਟੀਐ  ਹੋਰ  ਥੈ  ਹੋਰਤੁ  ਉਪਾਇ  ਹਰਿ  ਧਨੁ  ਕਿਤੈ  ਨ  ਪਾਈ  ॥
In the company of the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, you shall earn the wealth of the Lord; this wealth of the Lord is not obtained anywhere else, by any other means, at all.

Either Sat Sangat is being in congregation with Waheguru, or unless we are in the presence of True Saints, we're all doomed!   (therefore unable to "go it alone")

Am I understanding correctly that some members have suggested Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the True Saint in the room which transforms a sangat into Sat Sangat?

Ishna


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## findingmyway (Nov 11, 2010)

Page 661
ਜਬ  ਲਗੁ  ਦੁਨੀਆ  ਰਹੀਐ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਸੁਣੀਐ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਕਹੀਐ  ॥ ਭਾਲਿ  ਰਹੇ  ਹਮ  ਰਹਣੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਜੀਵਤਿਆ  ਮਰਿ  ਰਹੀਐ  ॥੫॥੨॥
As long as we are alive, we must keep listening and praising Akaal Purakh. We've been given the chance to do this in life. No-one lives forever, though its been tried, so make it the purpose of your life while you are alive to remain within Chardi Kala.

Page 72
ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ  ਕੈਸੀ  ਜਾਣੀਐ  ॥ ਜਿਥੈ  ਏਕੋ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਵਖਾਣੀਐ  ॥ ਏਕੋ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਹੈ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ  ਦੀਆ  ਬੁਝਾਇ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੫॥ 
How do we recognise Sadh sangat? It is where Akaal Purakh's name is constantly remembered. Waheguru has given me this understanding that the sadh sangat is where there is constant endeavour to link with His name.


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## gurbanicd (Nov 11, 2010)

pritpal_singh said:


> Dear Gurbanicd,
> 
> You are absolutely right that WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST. This request in our religion in the ARDASS- As guruji says ARDASS is on of the best ways to communicate with Waheguru, and we should always use this tool in all aspects of our life. The humble ardass uttered shall be heard-rest assured. Ardass also is another way of remembering paramatma.
> Also you talk about blessed souls (murshid) without whose help one can't reach higher stages. I just wanted to say that nos soul can help you without the hukam of the supreme soul. So why try to catch the ear in a roundabout way when we can hold it straight by requesting (as you say) the help from the supreme paramatma himself. As guruji says : 'jab eh jaane mein kick karta tab lab garabh joon mein phirta' i.e till we believe we are doing something we shall not be free of the birth-death cycle. Similarly Guruji advises us to break free of DUALITY i.e. believing that someone else other than Waheguru can help us. Everything is under his hukam. We all are his slaves. We can't even take a breath without his meher, then how is it possible that someone can help somebody. It is always he who is helping all of us.
> Pardon



dearji

1. Ang 373 Line 17 Raag Asa: Guru Arjan Dev
ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਸੁਨੀ ਇਹ ਸੋਇ ॥
khojath khojath sunee eih soe ||
खोजत खोजत सुनी इह सोइ ॥
By searching and seeking, I have heard this news

1. Ang 373 Line 17 Raag Asa: Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
saadhhasangath bin thariou n koe ||
साधसंगति बिनु तरिओ न कोइ ॥
that without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, no one swims across

but as per gurbani sangat can be physical, mental,emotional and at spiritual levels.

bhulan chukan di khima


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## GURSEWAK (Nov 13, 2010)

SADHSANGAT IS MUST BECAUSE IF YOU SPEAK WAHEGURU ALLAH RAM IN SINGLE  THEN THE WILL BE ONE PERCENT IF YOU SPEAK 1000 PERSONS THEN THE PROFIT  WILL BE 1000% YOU KNOW TODAY'S TIME IS MORE THAN 92% IF NOT HUNDRED%                 GURBANI MESSAGE AWAR KAJ TERE KISE NA KAM MIL SADH SANGAT  BHAJ KEWAL NAM  . REHRAS IST LINE                                                                                                                             GURU FATHEH  GURSEWAK SINGHikonkaar


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 13, 2010)

GURSEWAK said:


> SADHSANGAT IS MUST BECAUSE IF YOU SPEAK WAHEGURU ALLAH RAM IN SINGLE THEN THE WILL BE ONE PERCENT IF YOU SPEAK 1000 PERSONS THEN THE PROFIT WILL BE 1000% YOU KNOW TODAY'S TIME IS MORE THAN 92% IF NOT HUNDRED% GURBANI MESSAGE AWAR KAJ TERE KISE NA KAM MIL SADH SANGAT BHAJ KEWAL NAM . REHRAS IST LINE GURU FATHEH GURSEWAK SINGHikonkaar


By speaking Waheguru Ram Allah, can we accomplish our mission. Is Waheguru name a magic mantar. Gurbani guides us, 'suchai oh akhiyee behan jo pinda dhoey - mere mechanical repetition does not make you truthful and serve any purpose. It is like, 'jeo kunchar eshnan - the elephant who takes a bath and then rolls back in dust. It is with ecstatic devotion learning the divine wisdom, understanding, creating a body of divine intellect within us and then distributing divine wisdom to all organs and see God in all without any discrimination, then only will be called intellegent. No one can judge who is real saadh. Gurbani clearly tells us, we are (I mean 99% people), 'kartoot pashu ki manas jaat'. Our mission is to eliminate animal briti from us and create a 'durlabh manukh deh - a rare and precious virtues in human body'.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 13, 2010)

I have some questions to ask:

1.What truly is Sadh Sangat?
2. Does it only mean fellow beings or could it also mean something else?
3. If it only means being with the fellow beings, then why does Gurbani repeatedly talk about introspection and contemplation which is done alone?

Input from all would be highly appreciated.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Nov 13, 2010)

Tejwant ji,

In Response to Question 1, 2 and 3:
The following shabad by Guru Nanak appears to give a clear explanation as to what *Saadh Sangat* is.  I have chosen an example by Guru Nanak as there was no Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji when he was composing his banis.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=20&L=15

These lines particularly:

ਲਖ  ਸਿਆਣਪ  ਜੇ  ਕਰੀ  ਲਖ  ਸਿਉ  ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ  ਮਿਲਾਪੁ  ॥
Lakẖ si▫āṇap je karī lakẖ si▫o parīṯ milāp.
Even if someone has hundreds of thousands of clever mental tricks, and the love and company of hundreds of thousands of people -

ਬਿਨੁ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਸਾਧ  ਨ  ਧ੍ਰਾਪੀਆ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਨਾਵੈ  ਦੂਖ  ਸੰਤਾਪੁ  ॥
Bin sangaṯ sāḏẖ na ḏẖarāpī▫ā bin nāvai ḏūkẖ sanṯāp.
still, without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, he will not feel satisfied. Without the Name, all suffer in sorrow.

and later within same shabad...

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ  ਖੋਜਿ  ਢੰਢੋਲਿਆ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਖੋਜਿ  ਨਿਹਾਲਿ  ॥
Ŧaribẖavaṇ kẖoj dẖandẖoli▫ā gurmukẖ kẖoj nihāl.
I was seeking and searching for Him throughout the three worlds; then, as Gurmukh, I sought and found Him.


ਸਤਗੁਰਿ  ਮੇਲਿ  ਮਿਲਾਇਆ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਸੋ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥੪॥੧੭॥
Saṯgur mel milā▫i▫ā Nānak so parabẖ nāl. ||4||17||
The True Guru has united me in Union, O Nanak, with that God. ||4||17||

Guru Nanak has specified that the company of other people is nothing, but the Company of the Holy (I interpret this to mean communion with God) is everything.

However, the following shabad specifies the Company of Saints:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=18&L=12&id=767

Please read the entire shabad as single lines here won't convey whole message.

ਭਾਈ  ਰੇ  ਸੰਤ  ਜਨਾ  ਕੀ  ਰੇਣੁ  ॥
Bẖā▫ī re sanṯ janā kī reṇ.
O Siblings of Destiny, become the dust of the feet of the humble Saints.


ਸੰਤ  ਸਭਾ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਮੁਕਤਿ  ਪਦਾਰਥੁ  ਧੇਣੁ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
Sanṯ sabẖā gur pā▫ī▫ai mukaṯ paḏārath ḏẖeṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In the Society of the Saints, the Guru is found. He is the Treasure of Liberation, the Source of all good fortune. ||1||Pause||

But then later in the shabad, there seems to be a contradiction:

ਕਿਉ  ਗੁਰ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ  ਛੁਟਸੀ  ਸਹਜਿ  ਮਿਲਿਐ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
Ki▫o gur bin ṯarikutī cẖẖutsī sahj mili▫ai sukẖ ho▫e.
Without the Guru, how can anyone be released from these three qualities? Through intuitive wisdom, we meet with Him and find peace.

I don't think a contradiction exists here, as I think the rahao line is a statement, not an instruction.  You can go to the Society of the Saints, and see that they have found the Guru, and see their good fortune and rewards.  But you can't join that Society of the Saints without havng first met the Guru through your own intuitive wisdom, which doesn't come without God's Grace.

Ishna


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 14, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Tejwant ji,
> 
> In Response to Question 1, 2 and 3:
> The following shabad by Guru Nanak appears to give a clear explanation as to what *Saadh Sangat* is.  I have chosen an example by Guru Nanak as there was no Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji when he was composing his banis.
> ...



Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response with Gurbani quotes but that was not the true intent of my questions. I would like us to go beyond the basic translation of Gurbani and try to understand the metaphors used in it in a  much broader sense including Saadh Sangat. After all metaphors have multiple meanings and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of them.

Although I thank you for your efforts, but I still feel that none of my questions are answered. Please do not take this as an offence.

Let's see what other members have to pitch in.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Nov 14, 2010)

Tejwant ji,

I thought this thread was supposed to be grounded in Gurbani (as per snpadmin's reminder to me on page 1 of this discussion), hence my post containing Gurbani, in reply to your "Input from all would be highly appreciated".

Ishna


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## spnadmin (Nov 14, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Tejwant ji,
> 
> I thought this thread was supposed to be grounded in Gurbani (as per snpadmin's reminder to me on page 1 of this discussion), hence my post containing Gurbani, in reply to your "Input from all would be highly appreciated".
> 
> Ishna




Thanks Ishna very much. I did indeed ask that this discussion not extrapolate heavily from personal experiences, but try to look at things the other way around. 

The thread was a response to another thread about sangat, in which personal experience was sometimes given much weight as the source of wisdom and truth. In spite of the nagging fact that personal experience was also cited as the source of personal frustration and disappointment, in that thread. 

Though wisdom and truth are certainly not polar opposites of frustration and disappointment, they are also very different.

Thus, I saw a need for a thread that leaned more on our understanding of the ShabadGuru. Ishna, I think you have contributed some shabads that perhaps others of us also need to consider and discuss along with you.


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 16, 2010)

Ishna said:


> Guru Nanak has specified that the company of other people is nothing, but the Company of the Holy (I interpret this to mean communion with God) is everything.


Ishna Ji

There are almost 350 deras in Punjab some attracts congregation in lakhs, some in thousands whereas other in hundred. Ashtapadhi 8 of sukhmani sahib states, 'man sacha mukh sacha soey avar na paikhai ekus bin koey nanak eh lachan brahmgiani hoey'.  Keeping above simple yardstick in my mind, I covered almost 90% of the deras in search of a true saadh. It took me a almost a year. Whereever I went I found nothing but corruption, politics, prostitiuion den except one in Mohali where I found some solace but that too was not interpretating gurbani keeping rahao pankti in mind. Somewhere I was so scared that I couldn't even stay more than half an hours. If you really want to judge them just wait near their dressing room and you will hear kutti de putra, haram zadeh types of baani,  and I forget one very cheap and dirty word which dhadheriwala used several times during my visit. I heard him using same during one of his discourse in public also. I wondered if these holier people when cannot enshrine simple virtue of gurbani, 'mith bolda jee oh kadhe na bolai kodha - then are they really holy. After completion my journey I came to the conclusion that when 'you are sincere and  want to surrender to His Hukam then no one is more holier than yourself'.   


Moreover, despite gurbani stating, 'antar gat teerth mal nao' we will notice that those who don't want to get liberated from the thorn of duality, supersitition, dogmas etc. only visits these deras and dip in their so called teerth places.

Best regards  
sahni mohinder


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## spnadmin (Nov 16, 2010)

Is it possible that we should be trying to understand the meaning of sadh sangat from two points of view at the same time? There has been comment that association with the company of the saints, the congregation of the holy, refers to our meeting with the divine in devotion. There has also been the view that sangat as saintly people is another possible meaning. Is it not possible that one experience of sangat (with the divine) is enhanced by another sense of sangat (with devotees)? And that there is no contradiction between the two? 

Take a look at these two shabads side by side.

*First shabad*

This is one complete shabad of the 2 shabads that ishna has linked us to. What does it seem to tell us about sangat? Where is it found? How is it found? 

From Sri Raag, Guru Nanak, Ang 20

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਮਿਲੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਹੈ ਏਹ ॥
Suṇ man miṯar pi▫āri▫ā mil velā hai eh.
Listen, O my mind, my friend, my darling: now is the time to meet the Lord.

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਸਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਹ ॥
Jab lag joban sās hai ṯab lag ih ṯan ḏeh.
As long as there is youth and breath, give this body to Him.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਢਹਿ ਢੇਰੀ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹ ॥੧॥
Bin guṇ kām na āvī dẖėh dẖerī ṯan kẖeh. ||1||
Without virtue, it is useless; the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਲੈ ਲਾਹਾ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥॥
Mere man lai lāhā gẖar jāhi.
O my mind, earn the profit, before you return home.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Gurmukẖ nām salāhī▫ai ha▫umai nivrī bẖāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the fire of egotism is extinguished. ||1||Pause||

ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗੰਢਣੁ ਗੰਢੀਐ ਲਿਖਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥
Suṇ suṇ gandẖaṇ gandẖī▫ai likẖ paṛ bujẖėh bẖār.
Again and again, we hear and tell stories; we read and write and understand loads of knowledge,

ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
Ŧarisnā ahinis aglī ha▫umai rog vikār.
but still, desires increase day and night, and the disease of egotism fills us with corruption.

ਓਹੁ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲਵਾ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Oh veparvāhu aṯolvā gurmaṯ kīmaṯ sār. ||2||
That Carefree Lord cannot be appraised; His Real Value is known only through the Wisdom of the Guru's Teachings. ||2||

ਲਖ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਜੇ ਕਰੀ ਲਖ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਪੁ ॥
Lakẖ si▫āṇap je karī lakẖ si▫o parīṯ milāp.
Even if someone has hundreds of thousands of clever mental tricks, and the love and company of hundreds of thousands of people -

ਬਿਨੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਧ੍ਰਾਪੀਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੂਖ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ॥
Bin sangaṯ sāḏẖ na ḏẖarāpī▫ā bin nāvai ḏūkẖ sanṯāp.
still, without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, he will not feel satisfied. Without the Name, all suffer in sorrow.

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜੀਅਰੇ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੩॥
Har jap jī▫are cẖẖutī▫ai gurmukẖ cẖīnai āp. ||3||
Chanting the Name of the Lord, O my soul, you shall be emancipated; as Gurmukh, you shall come to understand your own self. ||3||

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਵੇਚਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Ŧan man gur pėh vecẖi▫ā man ḏī▫ā sir nāl.
I have sold my body and mind to the Guru, and I have given my mind and head as well.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਢੰਢੋਲਿਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥
Ŧaribẖavaṇ kẖoj dẖandẖoli▫ā gurmukẖ kẖoj nihāl.
I was seeking and searching for Him throughout the three worlds; then, as Gurmukh, I sought and found Him.

ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੪॥੧੭॥
Saṯgur mel milā▫i▫ā Nānak so parabẖ nāl. ||4||17||
The True Guru has united me in Union, O Nanak, with that God. ||4||17||

*Second shabad*

 Next we can look at the first shabad side by side with this second shabad also from Sri Raag, and on Ang 51 by Guru Arjan Dev ji

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੬ ॥
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੬ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5 gẖar 6.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Sixth House:

ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਏਕੁ ਓਹੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
Karaṇ kāraṇ ek ohī jin kī▫ā ākār.
The One Lord is the Doer, the Cause of causes, who has created the creation.

ਤਿਸਹਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
Ŧisėh ḏẖi▫āvahu man mere sarab ko āḏẖār. ||1||
Meditate on the One, O my mind, who is the Support of all. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਇ ॥
Gur ke cẖaran man mėh ḏẖi▫ā▫e.
Meditate within your mind on the Guru's Feet.

ਛੋਡਿ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Cẖẖod sagal si▫āṇpā sācẖ sabaḏ liv lā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Give up all your clever mental tricks, and lovingly attune yourself to the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ਦੁਖੁ ਕਲੇਸੁ ਨ ਭਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
Ḏukẖ kales na bẖa▫o bi▫āpai gur manṯar hirḏai ho▫e.
Suffering, agony and fear do not cling to one whose heart is filled with the GurMantra.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਤਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥॥
Kot jaṯnā kar rahe gur bin ṯari▫o na ko▫e. ||2||
Trying millions of things, people have grown weary, but without the Guru, none have been saved. ||2||

ਦੇਖਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਾਧਾਰੈ ਪਾਪ ਸਗਲੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Ḏekẖ ḏarsan man saḏẖārai pāp sagle jāhi.
Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, the mind is comforted and all sins depart.

ਹਉ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
Ha▫o ṯin kai balihārṇai jė gur kī pairī pāhi. ||3||
I am a sacrifice to those who fall at the Feet of the Guru. ||3||

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ man vasai sācẖ har kā nā▫o.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the True Name of the Lord comes to dwell in the mind.

ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਭਾਉ ॥੪॥੨੪॥੯੪॥
Se vadbẖāgī nānkā jinā man ih bẖā▫o. ||4||24||94||
Very fortunate are those, O Nanak, whose minds are filled with this love. ||4||24||94|| 

ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਭਾਉ ॥੪॥੨੪॥੯੪॥॥
Se vadbẖāgī nānkā jinā man ih bẖā▫o. ||4||24||94||
Very fortunate are they O Nanak! who have this love within their mind. 


Sahib Singh's vichaar of the second shabad can be found at this link, along with the exposition by G. Singh. In these interpretations the human sangat becomes a source of inspiration and spiritual fortitude. 

http://gursoch.blogspot.com/2010/02/three-factors-in-sikhi.html

I am also personally curious whether any of us have had the experience of "sangat" that was able to fortify us through their moral and emotional companionship on this inward journey. So far nothing much positive has been said about the experience of finding and keeping the company of godly people.


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## sunmukh (Nov 16, 2010)

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Gurfateh ji


			
				Tejwant Singh said:
			
		

> I have some questions to ask:
> 1.What truly is Sadh Sangat?
> 2. Does it only mean fellow beings or could it also mean something else?
> 3. If it only means being with the fellow beings, then why does Gurbani repeatedly talk about introspection and contemplation which is done alone?
> ...


 
IMHO
1) Saadh Sanghat does not have to have a definitive meaning. Dwelling on terminology in hope of realising the true intent of original authors, is trying to read back into memories of past people. It is not possible. So one can do the next best thing and either accept others opinions or forge ones own. In my opinion, saadh sangat relates to company of virtuous people, and also to company of one's inner spirit/soul - SatGuru.
2) As above. 
3) As above - It does not mean only fellow beings. Nature of physical sangat is unknown. The cover does not reveal the contents. One can seek good sangat but what one finds may not be good sangat. Furthermore, one can seek good sangat without any spiritual guide. If one is seeking somewhere to relocate, one seeks an area where there is low crime. When one seeks a school for one's children one of the factors may be how unruly the children are in the school. This is seeking good sangat. However the outcome is not assured. Self-realisation can lead one to meeting Satguru. (satgur sajan milia). Satguru is always there but hidden as a result of worldy attachments. Satguru is pure and untainted. 10th gate, inner-shrine, looking within, intuitive awareness, dealing with 5 evils, being like the lotus that blossoms despite the surrounding mire of the swamp, being dead whilst alive, bowing to Guru, is all about uncovering Satguru from wrappers, and merging with that pure identity.If what Akaal Purakh has planted within the vessel of the human body is no sufficiently pure for one, then any external sangat becomes dubious to say the least. 

Thanks for inviting wider and other perspectives.

Sat Sri Akal


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 16, 2010)

spnadmin said:


> Is it possible that we should be trying to understand the meaning of sadh sangat from two points of view at the same time? There has been comment that association with the company of the saints, the congregation of the holy, refers to our meeting with the divine in devotion. There has also been the view that sangat as saintly people is another possible meaning. Is it not possible that one experience of sangat (with the divine) is enhanced by another sense of sangat (with devotees)? And that there is no contradiction between the two?
> 
> Take a look at these two shabads side by side.
> 
> ...


Aman Singh Ji

Saadh in above sabd is divine wisdom and sangat denotes contemplation. that without contemplation on divine wisdom duality cannot be elimnated.

Best regads
sahni mohinder


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## spnadmin (Nov 16, 2010)

japjisahibji

Thank you for your reply

For moderation purposes: . Would you or anyone then be able to explain why there would be a difference of opinion with the way in which Professor Sahib Singh's interpreted differently by the author at the site http://gursoch.blogspot.com/2010/02/three-factors-in-sikhi.html



> ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਭਾਉ ॥੪॥੨੪॥੯੪॥
> Sāḏẖsangaṯ man vasai sācẖ har kā nā▫o. Se vadbẖāgī nānkā jinā man ih bẖā▫o. ||4||24||94||
> 
> In Essence: In the company of His devotees, Prabh’s Name abides in the hearts; Nanak says that those who love to live in the company of Saints are fortunate.
> ...



(by http://gursoch.blogspot.com/2010/02/three-factors-in-sikhi.html)


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## seeker3k (Nov 16, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I have some questions to ask:
> 
> 1.What truly is Sadh Sangat?
> 2. Does it only mean fellow beings or could it also mean something else?
> ...




Tajwinder Ji,

Very good question. That what I been saying for long time.

Sadh= One who have sadh him self, have total control of himself. The true Sadh will give naam to meditate on. It is also called shabad. That meditation always done alone not in group.
In group we get the motivation when we listen to other’s exp. Each person have his /her own exp in meditaion when they start doing the meditaion. At one stage it is the same experience for all who have reached that stage.

Sadh is also teach one how to do the meditation. It has to be done in such a way that can hep one to become aware of him.

Bani also emphasize on Sat Guru who can bless one with the shabad. If it was not true then Guru couldn’t have said that.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 16, 2010)

SpnAdmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but whoever has translated the Gurbani in English makes no sense according to what is said in the original. 

I will put my thoughts in blue:


 



> japjisahibji
> 
> Thank you for your reply
> 
> For moderation purposes: . Would you or anyone then be able to explain  why there would be a difference of opinion with the way in which  Professor Sahib Singh's interpreted differently by the author at the  site http://gursoch.blogspot.com/2010/02/...-in-sikhi.html


  Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;">                              ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਭਾਉ ॥੪॥੨੪॥੯੪॥ 
Sāḏẖsangaṯ man vasai sācẖ har kā nā▫o. Se vadbẖāgī nānkā jinā man ih bẖā▫o. ||4||24||94|| 

In Essence: In the company of His devotees, Prabh’s Name abides in the  hearts; Nanak says that those who love to live in the company of Saints  are fortunate.

The question arises who are these " His devotees"? Can we call Bill Gates who has helped people of all walks of life in the world over as one of the devotees?
Isn't breeding goodness and sharing with others the true message here? 

As a big step of meeting Guru is taken, a battle within is begun, in there, Guru  - teachings are practiced rightful way and the Creator is kept in the  hearts all the time. Who long for Guru - teachings obviously are very  fortunate individuals.

The above again makes no sense and is more blasphemous to our Gurus' teachings than anything else.

What does the author of this translation mean by "As a big step of meeting Guru is taken"? Where is the meeting place? Who is this Guru? Is he a person? A Derawala? Ik Ong kaar is omnipresent. The Source is in all there is.

it is  necessary to live in right environment at least for part time because  the storm of Maya temptation can hit hard again, that right environment  can be a great help, so seek the company of His devotees, 

What is the right environment and where is it found? Didn't our Gurus teach us and give us the tools to create the right environment? If we are searching for the right environment rather than creating it, then the concept of Langar is futile where the idea was to have all kinds of people break the bread together and interact. If we are looking for the right environment then all the travels by our Gurus to the distant parts result into naught. The message here is that we should make our mind-Mann the right environment so that even the filthiest places with the scoundrels living  there can become the right ones and with our help they can cease to be what they have been and hence can breed goodness within.

More about it later.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

</td></tr></tbody></table>
(by http://gursoch.blogspot.com/2010/02/...-in-sikhi.html)


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 17, 2010)

Yes we should make base of our mind divine wisdom -and create 'manukh durlabh dey' the precious human body by hardwork within us to accomplish the karz entrusted to us. 
Since Gurbani is universal, without any discrimination and is for everyone thus if we interpret that it refers to see all equal through the outer organs then it does not apply to those who are handicap, thus: 
ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥
To see without eyes; to hear without ears;to walk without feet; to work without hands;
ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥
to speak without a tongue-like this, one remains dead while yet alive. this way O Nanak, recognize the Hukam of the Lord's Command, and accomplish the mission to become ONE and merge with your Lord and Master. ||1||
best regards
sahni mohinder


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## seeker3k (Nov 17, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> Yes we should make base of our mind divine wisdom -and create 'manukh durlabh dey' the precious human body by hardwork within us to accomplish the karz entrusted to us.
> Since Gurbani is universal, without any discrimination and is for everyone thus if we interpret that it refers to see all equal through the outer organs then it does not apply to those who are handicap, thus:
> ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥
> To see without eyes; to hear without ears;to walk without feet; to work without hands;
> ...



What is this thing we see,hear,walk,do?

I can only know that it is Samadhi.

Is it mean any thing else?


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 18, 2010)

seeker3k said:


> What is this thing we see,hear,walk,do?
> 
> I can only know that it is Samadhi.
> 
> Is it mean any thing else?


No. It is jeewan mukat. Liberated from the fog of darkness. 
Best regards
sahni Mohinder


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## seeker3k (Nov 18, 2010)

japjisahib04 said:


> No. It is jeewan mukat. Liberated from the fog of darkness.
> Best regards
> sahni Mohinder



Sorry I disagree with you on this point.

When jeewan is kukat then who see with out eyes and who hear with out ears, who walk with out feet. Nothing is done when one is kuket. As long we can do all those things we are not muket. After we r mukat there is no karam.


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## spnadmin (Nov 18, 2010)

Tejwant Singh ji 

Personally, I am in alignment with what you have said above, and here it is reposted



> What is the right environment and where is it found? Didn't our Gurus teach us and give us the tools to create the right environment? If we are searching for the right environment rather than creating it, then the concept of Langar is futile where the idea was to have all kinds of people break the bread together and interact. If we are looking for the right environment then all the travels by our Gurus to the distant parts result into naught. The message here is that we should make our mind-Mann the right environment so that even the filthiest places with the scoundrels living there can become the right ones and with our help they can cease to be what they have been and hence can breed goodness within.



I don't know what the author of blog  intended exactly. The article is posted to spur focused discussion.  Perhaps it did not.

It seems that this particular thread is veering in the direction of accepting that sadhdsangat does not refer to a congregation of devotees who are trying to follow the Gurus' teaching. Rather the growing sentiment of posters on this thread appears to accept that sadhsangat can only mean spiritual communion with Waheguru ji. 

My own understanding, after reading a broad selection of shabads, is that saadhsangat means both the human congregration of sincere devotees and the spiritual communion with the Satguru. Both are journeys we take and are headed in the same direction. 

Common sense as well as gurbani leads me in this direction. Forgive my faulty thought processes. Why would Gurus Angad and Amardas have devoted exceptional energies and resources to the creation of sangats, the creation of langar? Why would Guru Ram Das urge congregational kirtan?  Did they do these things so that the personal journey of any one person could be supported by companions, who had perhaps travelled the distance a bit longer or farther, and had something helpful to offer someone like me? 

On another thread, Saadh Sangat,  this point is made, by forum member arshi





> Some Sikhs claim they do not go to the Gurdwara because of politics. True these do exist and there are innocent people who may have experienced the bitter end of political disputes in Gurdwaras but the vast majority use this as an excuse not visit the Gurdwara. Do you always walk out or opt out of your work and social activities because of politics? No you persevere. So why not do the same where the cause is noble?




and this point 





> aadhsang mil naam dhiaavahu pooran hovai ghaalaa (Sorath M: 5 – Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 617).
> 
> Meditate on the name of the Lord (Naam) in the company of the Holy and the Lord will reward your efforts.
> 
> ...




http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26905-saadh-sangat.html

Arshi ji's latter remark jolted me when I re-read it. It triggered in a very real way the emotional change in sangat that occurs toward the end of Gurdwara services, a charge of energy that I feel when the moment comes when all together recite Anand Sahib. There is nothing quite like that sensation, a mixture of joy and firmness, pervades everywhere. It creates a sense of readiness to receive the Hukamnama and to share in parshad. I leave shortly afterward feeling very much connected to something. So whatever the short-comings within the sangat,  sangat as sangat has been powerful for me.



> ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥
> anad sunhu vadbhaageeho sagal manorath pooray.
> 
> Listen to the song of bliss, O most fortunate ones; all your longings shall be fulfilled.
> ...



The "Saints" may not be real human beings. What about their "listeners?"


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## spnadmin (Nov 18, 2010)

http://www.expatherapy.com/nitnem/5_anand_sahib_kirtan_by_palji.mp3


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 18, 2010)

Seeker3 ji

This is not my interpretation. Gurbani tells us who is jivan mukat by stating, '
ਜੀਭੈਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥
to speak without a tongue-like this, one remains dead while yet alive. this way O Nanak, recognize the Hukam of the Lord's Command, and accomplish the mission to become ONE and merge with your Lord and Master. ||1||

Moreover, when gurbani tells us, '
ਜਿਹਬਾ ਗੁਨ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਭਜਹੁ ਕਰਨ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਹਰਿਨਾਮੁ ॥
Vibrate with your tongue the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe; with your ears, hear the Lord's Name. Is gurbani discrimantory by above instruction ? what about those who don’t have tongue and and are deaf. So it means this pankti does not apply to them and is discriminatory. But when we read the following panti, ‘ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਪਰਹਿ ਨ ਜਮ ਕੈ ਧਾਮ - it makes clear guru sahib is pointing towards my mind. Therefore guru sahib is not pointing towards outer tongue and ears but inner created by us with hard labour by enshrining supreme virtues.
Best regards
sahni mohinder


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 19, 2010)

Aman Ji, 
We have to be very careful, as when we take literall interpretation of gurbani, then in my case when I live in kuwait and you live in U.s.a, and I need to understand gurbani, it leads to the game of dehdhari guru. When gurbani tells us, 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ without the divine wisdom, there is no Sangat, no Congregation, it opens up the meaning of many other sabd, like, ' ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀ ਹਰਿ ਧੂੜਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਭੀ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਂਹਿ ॥ O Lord, please bless me with the dust of the feet of the Guru's Sikhs. I am a sinner - please save me. Thus again literal meaning leads to collecting of dust of the sangat of sikhs under the mat instead of divine wisdom.  But mind only gets transformed when someone sincerely contemplate upon truth and i.e. whether he is sitting in the company of ten - twenty sikhs or thousands of sikhs or alone.
Best regards
sahni Mohinder


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## spnadmin (Nov 19, 2010)

:closed:

The thread is closed. It is definitely traveling in circles, and very little has been posted that brings the meanings of gurbani into relation with an experience of sangat that can be felt in more than one way, at more than one level. The conversation has been mostly about the "correct" meaning of the word "sangat." Not so much has been said of how "sangat," as expressed in Gurbani, is lived.

Is it not important to describe all the ways in which sangat is understood in Sikhi? Sikh history, the lives of the Gurus, gurbani and the insights of Bhai Gurdas ji clearly describe sangat as something that has both an earthly and a spiritual significance. Sangat can mean not only association with the divine within, but also association with people who are seeking sangat to support one another on this inner journey. Is it not possible that our Gurus believed the divine would be sensed in the earthly experience of seva, or langar, or congregational prayer and kirtan? 

For now let us consider sangat as being both metaphor and actual, an experience in which we seek and perhaps find the Naam enshrined within us. Sangat in its collective human form is not required to attach ourselves to the Lotus feet of the Creator. At the same time sangat in its human form can  teach and inspire us to live in the Guru's way, as it does in congregational prayer, kirtan, langar and seva.

We can end with a bit of a shabad from SriRaag, on Ang 140 in which Guru Nanak explains these feelings so well. We take this journey alone. The journey seems such a struggle. To reach our destination we must lose our false sense of ego and become slaves of this creative force. It is so easy to get lost. And so easy to forget. Yet the other travelers may be able to point the way. They know the way to the threshold of the king. He can be found everywhere. 




ਭੂਲੀ ਭੂਲੀ ਥਲਿ ਚੜਾ ਥਲਿ ਚੜਿ ਡੂਗਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
bhoolee bhoolee thhal charraa thhal charr ddoogar jaao ||
Wandering around and making mistakes, I climb the plateau; having climbed the plateau, I go up the mountain


ਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜੇ ਫਿਰਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਉ ॥
ban mehi bhoolee jae firaa bin gur boojh n paao ||
But now I have lost my way, and I am wandering around in the forest; without the Guru, I do not understan

ਨਾਵਹੁ ਭੂਲੀ ਜੇ ਫਿਰਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵਉ ਜਾਉ ॥੭॥
naavahu bhoolee jae firaa fir fir aavo jaao ||7||
If I wander around forgetting God's Name, I shall continue coming and going in reincarnation, over and over again. ||7||

ਪੁਛਹੁ ਜਾਇ ਪਧਾਊਆ ਚਲੇ ਚਾਕਰ ਹੋਇ ॥
pushhahu jaae padhhaaooaa chalae chaakar hoe ||
Go and ask the travellers, how to walk on the Path as His slave

ਰਾਜਨੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਦਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਠਾਕ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
raajan jaanehi aapanaa dhar ghar thaak n hoe ||
They know the Lord to be their King, and at the Door to His Home, their way is not blocked.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੮॥੬॥
naanak eaeko rav rehiaa dhoojaa avar n koe ||8||6||
O Nanak, the One is pervading everywhere; there is no other at all. ||8||6||


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