# Who Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Address Most?



## Ambarsaria (Feb 21, 2012)

Our Guru ji were of Hindu lineage.  They discovered and wanted to create a future beyond Hinduism.  That future in brevity has come to be known as Sikhism.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Guru ji and other writers shattered so many myths of Hiduism, spoke up against ill direction provided by the then purveyors of Hinduism, to some extent also the then leaders or people in-charge of Islam.  So to me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was composed for the following purpose,


To help Hindus to unshackle and become wiser and Sikh
To help Sikhs that became to have a guiding light forever so to be not lost
Anyone else who could just benefit from large amounts of humanistic thoughts, wisdom, poetry and many other attributes of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
What you think?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 21, 2012)

> help Hindus to unshackle and become wiser and Sikhquote


 
Veer Ji 
To be unshackled and become wiser is possible within being a Hindu,were not many Bhagats Hindu?ofcourse some Hindu's were shackled then just as some Sikhs are shackled now,but the Bhagat was free then and now.

Sikh or Hindu one is only accepted if he has love for God,if he has just an adherence then he has wasted his life.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

At the times of NANAK,and even few years before the the people were living in a state of slave ,Socially,Politically as well as Religiously.
The persons with vested interests contolled all these areas and people were being looted by so called self made GuRoo in Hindu Religion and so called Kaji Mullahs iIslamic religions.
The concept of PARMATMA and GuROO in person as the sole medium of uniting the common people with PARMATAMA was at the peak.General people were being kept ignorant about the true meassges of actual Dhamic Granths.

Gurbanee thru NANAK and thru previous Bhagats showed a new light of Knowledge which started changing the thought process of common persons for the facts of PARMATAMA and GuRoo. NANAK ji acted as epicetre of this revolution in thinking and giving the messages of real art of living for a common persons.
Gurbanne messages made it very clear as to who is real GuRoo and esblished a philosophy which categoricaaly removed the existing confusions created by the Heading people of that time.(Both Hindu and Islamic).
It is very surprising  fact of Gurbanee that there is no use of the word PARMATAMA in SGGS.This is because there is no difference in the reference of GuRoo and PARMATAMA.
Since the word GuRoo is the Epicentre of the whole of Gurbanee there is no place for making use of the word PARMATAMA as this would be confusing.
Since theSource of Gurbanee is the word GuRoo .This is important to understand.So we can see that the messages of Gurbanee are common for all humans irrespective of Color,Creed,Caste and religion.
So Gurbanee is gracful whosoever respects  from the heart.It tells the way to meet PRABHu thru GuR . (Not PARMATAMA thru GuRoo as our preachers still promote this )

These are my personal views and there may be difference of opinions which others may present I shall be always eager to learn more and more.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 21, 2012)

Prakash ji references to _Parmatma_ are there in SGGS. You just have to look a bit.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37979-jyots-in-gurdwaras-3.html#post160205

If there is no difference between _Guru_ and _Parmatma_ then of course it shouldn't matter which word we use.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I know that word is"PARMATAMu"  not PARMATAMA.

You are not considering the grammar of the words, and this makes the difference.

Giving grammatcal consideration to the words you will find difference in the reference meanings of PARMATAMA and PARMATAMu.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 21, 2012)

Go on Veerji. Please elaborate on the difference.

Also the word Paratma is there as well, which means the same thing as Parmatma. Thoughts on that?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Go on Veerji. Please elaborate on the difference.
> 
> Also the word Paratma is there as well, which means the same thing as Parmatma. Thoughts on that?


 
Pl post the quotes with both the words from SGGS enabling me to rectify myself

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 21, 2012)

*Parm*...atma is our Inner Conscience....the "Atma" is our consciousness based on our daily actions..the Parmatma the BASE STANDARD against which we "measure" whether our *atma* is doing good or less good... Just like the IMAGE of the Sun or MOON is the SAME in any body of water whether its in  rural village in Africa or in Chicago..so is the Par-Atma set as Base Standard in ALL ...so that we can MOULD our secondary atmas accordingly...The atma is in the Bubbles that arise over the waves of the Ocean...each bubble having the same AIR and Water the Ocean contains....ONLY the HUMAN has been given the SARDAREE of this WORLD..he alone has the ability to Follow and ADOPT the Base standards to change his LIFE accordingly...so His Inner Consciousness is SATISFACTORY and at Peace with HIMSELF. Once the Human BODY dies..the BUBBLE BURSTS..the AIR is released..the water falls back into the Ocean...another NEW bubble is created...and LIFE goes ON....and ON..JAISEH JAL TE BUDBUDA *upjeh..binseh *neet !!!


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 21, 2012)

Here you go Prakash ji.

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
धनासरी महला १ ॥
Ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 1.
Dhanaasaree, First Mehl:
ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
नदरि करे ता सिमरिआ जाइ ॥
Naḏar kare ṯā simri▫ā jā▫e.
If the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace, then one remembers Him in meditation.
ਆਤਮਾ ਦ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
आतमा द्रवै रहै लिव लाइ ॥
Āṯmā ḏarvai rahai liv lā▫e.
The soul is softened, and he remains absorbed in the Lord's Love.
ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ ॥
आतमा परातमा एको करै ॥
Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai.
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.
ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥
अंतर की दुबिधा अंतरि मरै ॥१॥
Anṯar kī ḏubiḏẖā anṯar marai. ||1||
The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
गुर परसादी पाइआ जाइ ॥
Gur parsādī pā▫i▫ā jā▫e.
By Guru's Grace, God is found.
ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
हरि सिउ चितु लागै फिरि कालु न खाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Har si▫o cẖiṯ lāgai fir kāl na kẖā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
One's consciousness is attached to the Lord, and so Death does not devour him. ||1||Pause||
ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
सचि सिमरिऐ होवै परगासु ॥
Sacẖ simri▫ai hovai pargās.
Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened.
ਤਾ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥
ता ते बिखिआ महि रहै उदासु ॥
Ŧā ṯe bikẖi▫ā mėh rahai uḏās.
Then, in the midst of Maya, he remains detached.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਐਸੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
सतिगुर की ऐसी वडिआई ॥
Saṯgur kī aisī vadi▫ā▫ī.
Such is the Glory of the True Guru;
ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
पुत्र कलत्र विचे गति पाई ॥२॥
Puṯar kalṯar vicẖe gaṯ pā▫ī. ||2||
in the midst of children and spouses, they attain emancipation. ||2||
ਐਸੀ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ ॥
ऐसी सेवकु सेवा करै ॥
Aisī sevak sevā karai.
Such is the service which the Lord's servant performs,
ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੈ ॥
जिस का जीउ तिसु आगै धरै ॥
Jis kā jī▫o ṯis āgai ḏẖarai.
that he dedicates his soul to the Lord, to whom it belongs.
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
साहिब भावै सो परवाणु ॥
Sāhib bẖāvai so parvāṇ.
One who is pleasing to the Lord and Master is acceptable.
ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਾਣੁ ॥੩॥
सो सेवकु दरगह पावै माणु ॥३॥
So sevak ḏargėh pāvai māṇ. ||3||
Such a servant obtains honor in the Court of the Lord. ||3||
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਾਏ ॥
सतिगुर की मूरति हिरदै वसाए ॥
Saṯgur kī mūraṯ hirḏai vasā▫e.
He enshrines the image of the True Guru in his heart.
ਜੋ ਇਛੈ ਸੋਈ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
जो इछै सोई फलु पाए ॥
Jo icẖẖai so▫ī fal pā▫e.
He obtains the rewards which he desires.
ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੈ ॥
साचा साहिबु किरपा करै ॥
Sācẖā sāhib kirpā karai.
The True Lord and Master grants His Grace;
ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਕੈਸਾ ਡਰੈ ॥੪॥
सो सेवकु जम ते कैसा डरै ॥४॥
So sevak jam ṯe kaisā darai. ||4||
how can such a servant be afraid of death? ||4||
ਭਨਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
भनति नानकु करे वीचारु ॥
Bẖanaṯ Nānak kare vīcẖār.
Prays Nanak, practice contemplation,
ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਉ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
साची बाणी सिउ धरे पिआरु ॥
Sācẖī baṇī si▫o ḏẖare pi▫ār.
and enshrine love for the True Word of His Bani.
ਤਾ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
ता को पावै मोख दुआरु ॥
Ŧā ko pāvai mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
Then, you shall find the Gate of Salvation.
ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਇਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੫॥੨॥੪॥
जपु तपु सभु इहु सबदु है सारु ॥५॥२॥४॥
Jap ṯap sabẖ ih sabaḏ hai sār. ||5||2||4||
This Shabad is the most excellent of all chanting and austere meditations. ||5||2||4||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 21, 2012)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
You can see that the actual word  in the Sabadis PARATAMA  not PARMATAMA.
There is always confusion in understanding of this quote from SGGS.
Here ATAMA-PAR ATAMA means own ATMA and Others ATAMA be known as one and Same.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 21, 2012)

Prakash ji,
Parmatma is all atmas. The sum totality of them. Whereas Parmatma could include one's own atma, Paratma does not. The words are essentially the same. Hence a similar translation.

Still you have not elaborated on the difference between Parmatma and Parmatam(u). And why this difference is significant.


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## Kamala (Feb 22, 2012)

If you ask me, it adresses it most to people who have no idea of religion in India and not necessarily Hindus. If you ask me, it was adressed more to the muslim kings than anyone, since they were the cause of the chaos.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 22, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> Parmatma is all atmas. The sum totality of them. Whereas Parmatma could include one's own atma, Paratma does not. The words are essentially the same. Hence a similar translation.
> 
> Still you have not elaborated on the difference between Parmatma and Parmatam(u). And why this difference is significant.


 

The difference in the reference meanings of the words PARMATAMA and PARMATAMu is the same as between SUN and SUN RAY/RAYS.
We can realise SUN is the Source for SUN RAYS .
Can we understand SUN RAYS as SUN.?
In aboce context the word PARMATAMA is equal to what the word GuRoo is in SGGS .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 22, 2012)

ਪੰਨਾ 421, ਸਤਰ 16
ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥
जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

What does this translate to then?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 22, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> ਪੰਨਾ 421, ਸਤਰ 16
> ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥
> जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
> Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
> ...


 
Bhagat Singh ji,
The word ATAMu  is the reference for your own soul and the form of the soul is a wave (invisible) so by realising your own soul as wave you realise the super wave being refered as PARMATAMu.
The source of SUPER WAVE PARMATAMu is PARMATAMA.or the word GuRoo .
This is what I understand thru Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 22, 2012)

Prakash ji,
The aukad on the last letter, what does it do the word? I am a bit slow and it is not clear from your explanations above.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 22, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> The aukad on the last letter, what does it do the word? I am a bit slow and it is not clear from your explanations above.


 
The Aukad on the last letter makes the word SINGULAR  and any word without Aukad is PLURAL.This is standard Rule in Gurbanee grammar for Noun words.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm sorry for being rude or stating the obvious.
But could some one just give me definitions in their own words of atma, parmatama, parmatamu, paramata or any other ( apologies for spelling)

I would just like to be clear with referring and differentiating between the correct meanings

Thank you


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 22, 2012)

Par.......atma.........vs par........Matma............our eyes play tricks..becasue we are conditioned that way.....there are various Paragraphs of sheer nonsense letters jumbled up..and we cna still READ those very well becasue our Brains "see" whats not even there... so its easy to make such mistakes...

Example:   Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde              Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht              oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht              the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit              pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you             can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.              Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not              raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe......!!!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 22, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Par.......atma.........vs par........Matma............our eyes play tricks..becasue we are conditioned that way.....there are various Paragraphs of sheer nonsense letters jumbled up..and we cna still READ those very well becasue our Brains "see" whats not even there... so its easy to make such mistakes...
> 
> Example: Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe....


 
GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Ji,

Does our GuRu tell the same as above.I shall be interested in confirmaton of this from within SGGS.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 22, 2012)

Kamala said:


> If you ask me, it addresses it most to people who have no idea of religion in India and not necessarily Hindus. If you ask me, _it was addressed more to the muslim kings than anyone_, since they were the cause of the chaos.


Kamala ji you are 110% wrong.  Muslims during Guru jis times were the best of people while the Brahmins and the rest of the clowns pillaged people with myths, class discrimination, protection of wisdom for the privileged, etc.  It was squarely addressed to the purveyors of Hinduism with Deities, moortis, havans, pakhands, salvation for exchange of goods and services, the Brahmin shop, etc.

Many Muslim rulers and invaders were trash and just bad people but they came from linage of war lords, oppressors of weak, and so on.  This started form Guru Arjan Dev ji onwards by which time Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was more or less 95% plus complete.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 22, 2012)

When the Gurus came on stage...certain words had already became INGRAINED on the masses' brains and minds...as such and such...already deeply rooted. For Guru Ji to INVENT or use entirely new words and then try and introduce those new words based on GURMATT would have been a task hugely waste of valuable time..a people used to living 1000 yeras in abject slavery to religious bigots, robber barons, looting pujarees, brahmins, pandits and kazis....hence Guru ji in his infinte wisdom decided to use the ESTABLISHED WORDS BUT Give them GURMATT MEANINGS...hence the RAAM of Gurmatt is NOT what the masses already beleived in..( King of Ayudhia, husband of Sita, son of Dasrath, commander of the hanuman forces etc..) BUT the RAAM that is the CREATOR....similarly Govind, Narayan, hari, parmatam etc etc...Inspite of this saving lots of time it still took over 250 years of human endeavour and 10 life times to bring about a physicla and mental paradigm shift to enable the slave minds to rebel and take charge and throw off the yokes......

2. Parkash Ji I am not saying that SGGS is written in jumbled letters..i am saying how people can SEE PA*R*matma when there is NO Such word in sggs. This is because the *Parmatma* is a most essential part of the vocabulary of Hinduism earlier than Guru nanak..Guru ji discarded this concept.  Even the word used in the follwoing is Parmatam..Khalsa was created in Parmatam's mauj...NOT Parmatma's mauj.

And Yes the aunkadd signifies SINGULAR..the Creator is SINGULAR and He is NOT a Super(SOUL) atma....the Parmatam is Parmatam.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 23, 2012)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
Thanks for your lucid presentation in respect of the use of the word PARMATAMA.

Similarly there is no concept of GOD in SGGS . This should also be looked into .

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 23, 2012)

YES..there is NO "GOD" in Gurmatt/Gurbani/SGGS. God is in the Torah..the Bible...and the Koran (changed to Allah and slightly different).....BUT the Supreme Creator in SGGS is a Paradigm Shift from those concepts of God/Allah. This Creator NEVER...NEVER gets angry...NEVER destroys anything esp innocent men women and children/animals etc in anger or to make an example of..or to manifest His POWER...NEVER displays miracles...extraordinary feats such as plagues..turning rivers of water into blood..move mountains or churn oceans etc etc..NEVR gives Commandments and Orders..Never stays the SUN in order to give His chosen people a few more hours to fight and win..Never has Sons or daughters or avtaars...or Messengers to deliver His Message...Akal Purakh is most beneficient..most kind..most merciful..most pleasant..most sweet mouthed...LOVE LOVE and ONLY LOVE. Akal Purakh presides over neither heavens nor hells..he doesnt give rewards nor punishments...only LOVE pleases Him.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 23, 2012)

> Akal Purakh is most beneficient..most kind..most merciful


 
Gyani Ji If Akaal Purukh can be kind does that not mean he can choose to be other things ,for just as if God has the capacity to be kind ,which is a very personal charecteristic ,why can't he be angry as in the Biblical sense?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 23, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> YES..there is NO "GOD" in Gurmatt/Gurbani/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. God is in the Torah..the Bible...and the Koran (changed to Allah and slightly different).....BUT the Supreme Creator in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a Paradigm Shift from those concepts of God/Allah. This Creator NEVER...NEVER gets angry...NEVER destroys anything esp innocent men women and children/animals etc in anger or to make an example of..or to manifest His POWER...NEVER displays miracles...extraordinary feats such as plagues..turning rivers of water into blood..move mountains or churn oceans etc etc..NEVR gives Commandments and Orders..Never stays the SUN in order to give His chosen people a few more hours to fight and win..Never has Sons or daughters or avtaars...or Messengers to deliver His Message...Akal Purakh is most beneficient..most kind..most merciful..most pleasant..most sweet mouthed...LOVE LOVE and ONLY LOVE. Akal Purakh presides over neither heavens nor hells..he doesnt give rewards nor punishments...only LOVE pleases Him.


 
Well your answer is exactly what is expected from a person of your background.
IsnT Surprising that all our preachers and scholars interprate Gurbanee with a concept of GOD  or PARMATAMA/.This is perhaps the basic reason why we are not able to understand the true meanings of Gurbanee.
I hope you will keep guiding the people for this wrong concepts being prapogated thru Gurbanee.

With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 24, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Gyani Ji If Akaal Purukh can be kind does that not mean he can choose to be other things ,for just as if God has the capacity to be kind ,which is a very personal charecteristic ,why can't he be angry as in the Biblical sense?




Of course HE *Can* Ji..BUT He IS NOT. He could be BLACK..but Hes WHITE by CHOICE.
I Can chose to be a serial Rapist..BUT I chose to be married to just One.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 24, 2012)

Jesus Christ lol Parmatma and Parmatam mean the same thing. That which is singular is simultaneously plural.
Page 13, Line 3
ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤਹੀ ॥
सहस तव नैन नन नैन हहि तोहि कउ सहस मूरति नना एक तोही ॥
Sahas ṯav nain nan nain hėh ṯohi ka▫o sahas mūraṯ nanā ek ṯohī.
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.
Guru Nanak Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


The intellectually dishonest use of previously existing vocabulary is an appealing theory to some but Ram is both the King of Ayodhya and the Almighty One. Ram means and always meant both simultaneously. Another example is Krishna who is sometimes referred to gopi-seducer, four-armed Lord in Gurbani, which carry all meanings. Just like Guru Nanak has come to mean both the 1st Guru and the Almighty One. For some future prophet/Guru/Avatar/messenger of God to then preach that one needs to dissolve one's ego to reach Guru Nanak, would not be surprising. He need not invent new vocabulary as the older vocabulary already covers what he is talking about.

If Guru Sahibs were looking specifically for words for their vision, then there were several, Ishvar, Parmatam, Brahman, etc. already available that were disconnected from any avatars, which of course they do use often (especially Brahman). But these are devoid of personal characteristics and so do not seem to appeal to Guru Sahibs as much as words that carry personal characteristics. Again there was no need invent any words. And to claim that they used old words to mean something entirely different, is simply accusing Gurus of deception. Gurus were not trying to deceive Hindus into Sikh fold by using words like Ram, Mohan, Gobind, Krishna, Chaturbhuj and Guru that they did not believe in. They believed in them and were honest about what they felt. This drew people in. Honesty and truth draw people in.

Such words carry familiar images of Krishna the herder, the seducer, Ram the righteous warrior, make for great imagery and thus would naturally appeal to everyone (because they stick in the mind - every kid on the block knows the stories) including the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Their vision of God is personal. They use the pronoun "You" (Krishna) as opposed to "It" (Brahman), etc.

An example of this personal relationship:

Guru Granth Sahib Page 1197

ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ ਚਉਪਦੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧
रागु सारग चउपदे महला १ घरु १
Rāg sārag cẖa▫upḏe mėhlā 1 gẖar 1
Raag Saarang, Chau-Padas, First Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaŉ gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying. Beyond Birth. Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace:

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੀ ਹਉ ਚੇਰੀ ॥
अपुने ठाकुर की हउ चेरी ॥
Apune ṯẖākur kī ha▫o cẖerī.
I am the hand-maiden of my Lord and Master.

ਚਰਨ ਗਹੇ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਨਿਬੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
चरन गहे जगजीवन प्रभ के हउमै मारि निबेरी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Cẖaran gahe jagjīvan parabẖ ke ha▫umai mār niberī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I have grasped the Feet of God, the Life of the world. He has killed and eradicated my egotism. ||1||Pause||

ਪੂਰਨ ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥
पूरन परम जोति परमेसर प्रीतम प्रान हमारे ॥
Pūran param joṯ parmesar parīṯam parān hamāre.
He is the Perfect, Supreme Light, the Supreme Lord God, my Beloved, my Breath of Life.

ਮੋਹਨ ਮੋਹਿ ਲੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਮਝਸਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
मोहन मोहि लीआ मनु मेरा समझसि सबदु बीचारे ॥१॥
Mohan mohi lī▫ā man merā samjẖas sabaḏ bīcẖāre. ||1||
The Fascinating Lord has fascinated my mind; contemplating the Word of the Shabad, I have come to understand. ||1||
ਮੋਹਨ - Krishna being referred to as the lover, seducer. He was very charming and every girl in the village wanted to be his bride. The soul-bride metaphor that comes at the end of the shabad only makes sense in light of Krishna's life story.
The Seducer (Krishna/God) has seduced my mind and I have come to understand.


ਮਨਮੁਖ ਹੀਨ ਹੋਛੀ ਮਤਿ ਝੂਠੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਪੀਰ ਸਰੀਰੇ ॥
मनमुख हीन होछी मति झूठी मनि तनि पीर सरीरे ॥
Manmukẖ hīn hocẖẖī maṯ jẖūṯẖī man ṯan pīr sarīre.
The worthless self-willed manmukh, with false and shallow understanding - his mind and body are held in pain's grip.

ਜਬ ਕੀ ਰਾਮ ਰੰਗੀਲੈ ਰਾਤੀ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਮਨ ਧੀਰੇ ॥੨॥
जब की राम रंगीलै राती राम जपत मन धीरे ॥२॥
Jab kī rām rangīlai rāṯī rām japaṯ man ḏẖīre. ||2||
Since I came to be imbued with the Love of my Beautiful Lord, I meditate on the Lord, and my mind is encouraged. ||2||

ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਡਿ ਭਈ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਤਬ ਸਾਚੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਮਾਨੀ ॥
हउमै छोडि भई बैरागनि तब साची सुरति समानी ॥
Ha▫umai cẖẖod bẖa▫ī bairāgan ṯab sācẖī suraṯ samānī.
Abandoning egotism, I have become detached. And now, I absorb true intuitive understanding.

ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਬਿਸਰੀ ਲਾਜ ਲਕਾਨੀ ॥੩॥
अकुल निरंजन सिउ मनु मानिआ बिसरी लाज लोकानी ॥३॥
Akul niranjan si▫o man māni▫ā bisrī lāj lokānī. ||3||
The mind is pleased and appeased by the Pure, Immaculate Lord; the opinions of other people are irrelevant. ||3||

ਭੂਰ ਭਵਿਖ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥
भूर भविख नाही तुम जैसे मेरे प्रीतम प्रान अधारा ॥
Bẖūr bẖavikẖ nāhī ṯum jaise mere parīṯam parān aḏẖārā.
There is no other like You, in the past or in the future, O my Beloved, my Breath of Life, my Support.

ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੀ ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਭਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੧॥
हरि कै नामि रती सोहागनि नानक राम भतारा ॥४॥१॥
Har kai nām raṯī sohāgan Nānak rām bẖaṯārā. ||4||1||
The soul-bride is imbued with the Name of the Lord; O Nanak, the Lord is her Husband. ||4||1||

Cheers


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2012)

A very very simple example. In a Class of 40 students from various backgrounds....the Punjabi word THAAL/THALEE has no meaning..even though i have a pile of them on my table. Whne I ask ..where are the Thalls..all blink at me....but the instant i mention..plate..saucer..etc etc...everyone UNDERSTANDS that what i am asking about are there in a pile right in front of me and all rush to hand me one....IF I was afraid of duplicity or committing intellectual fraud/theft etc..i would be forever trying to figure out how to get mt THAALEES out so the students can begin lunch.

Later on Gagan mehn THAAAL..Thalee seen being carried by certain heroines in serials when they go to pray to Devi mata..full of a coconut..flowers etc...even the kiddos get the picture....
WHY DID Guru Ji use the specific word THAAL...to describe the UNIVERSE..simply becasue the THAALEE used in AARTEE was so common...any 2 year old Hindu could get the message Guru ji was trying to put across...THAT is NOT intellectual theft of the word Thaal..or duplicity etc etc..too far fetched and imagination running wild...The THAAL of Gurbani is NOT the same as the THAALEE carried by hindu women to mandir.

PS. side note..I do get some "purist" parents who off and on..jump high...why ?? Becasue I ma Punjabi master Ji..why am i using the English word PLATE to get my students to "see" what i mean..i should PERSEVERE...use SIGN language..etc etc and ONLY Use PUNJABI words in a  Punjabi class...To such idiots i say..the Message is important...and TIME is SHORT...You are welcome to complain..Master Ji Punjabi class vich angrezi boli janda hai..punjabi swaah parrauhaundah ?? Thalee nu plate saddee janda hai...I beleive GUru nanak ji was in the same situation..He had very little time to deliver His Message about the GAGAM MEHN THAAL.......and He didnt care two hoots about what people will accuse him of...:happysingh:


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## Parma (Mar 31, 2012)

One, who understands the _atma_, knows him as the _Parmatma_; the Nectar tree bears the nectar fruit (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 421).

Please tell me if this translation is wrong as I have been learning Gurbani through english translation. As such if the translation is wrong I would hope that admin would allow me to edit a previous post of mine as I have to edit one of my previous posts as I thought the word parmatma exsisted in the Guru Granth Sahib due to this translation. Thanks!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 1, 2012)

Parma said:


> One, who understands the _atma_, knows him as the _Parmatma_; the Nectar tree bears the nectar fruit (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 421).
> 
> Please tell me if this translation is wrong as I have been learning Gurbani through english translation. As such if the translation is wrong I would hope that admin would allow me to edit a previous post of mine as I have to edit one of my previous posts as I thought the word parmatma exsisted in the Guru Granth Sahib due to this translation. Thanks!


 
If you carefully see the words of the refered Quote line from SGGS at pp421
it is very clear that the proper word is ATAM(u) not Atma and following word is PARMATAM(u) not Pramatama.
As a matter of fact the word Parmatam(u) referes to JoTi of Parmatama.
I think now you should be able to understand the difference between Parmatam(u) and Parmatama.
In SGGS the word Parmatama has not been used ,important point but we do find the use of the word Pramatam(u).
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Parma (Apr 1, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> If you carefully see the words of the refered Quote line from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at pp421
> it is very clear that the proper word is ATAM(u) not Atma and following word is PARMATAM(u) not Pramatama.
> As a matter of fact the word Parmatam(u) referes to JoTi of Parmatama.
> I think now you should be able to understand the difference between Parmatam(u) and Parmatama.
> ...


 
Thanks Mr Parkash ji, So the word Parmatama does not exsist in the Guru Granth Sahib, must be a miss translation in the above? I dont know what the sentance in the above is meant to be then? Does not seem to be any clearer to me! I would love to have the real translation of the above line please? Thank's in all your help and I hope admin will allow me to change my previous posting in another thread! Anybodies help is welcome   peacesign


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 2, 2012)

Parma said:


> Thanks Mr Parkash ji, So the word Parmatama does not exsist in the Guru Granth Sahib, must be a miss translation in the above? I dont know what the sentance in the above is meant to be then? Does not seem to be any clearer to me! I would love to have the real translation of the above line please? Thank's in all your help and I hope admin will allow me to change my previous posting in another thread! Anybodies help is welcome peacesign


 
The quote is as
 ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ

As per my understanding the interpretation is that
Who understands his own form  , becomes the form of the Creator.
The NAAM of CREATOR is the Amrit Tree and its fruits are of Amrit NAAM only.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 2, 2012)

Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> The quote is as
> ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ
> 
> As per my understanding the interpretation is that
> ...


 _The sabad line with more descriptions and translations,_

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> ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥
> जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
> Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
> Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.
> ...


So I find issue with your translations in the sense that you are claiming that one becomes ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ / ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ.  This I believe is false.

There is a phrase that goes like,


> It takes one, to know one


This appears to be the understanding conveyed by Prof. Sahib Singh ji and I believe we had dialog on this aspect before.


It is usually not used in positive connotations but the essence is that in order to understand, in order to value someone, one almost have to be in their framework of understanding and being.  

One does not become one, but gets the ability to recognize or understand.  Huge difference as following your logic, many including our Guru ji could be classified as ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ / ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ .  Simple extensions of this will lead you into numerous deities, Babeys, Dehras, etc.  Which is far from what our Guru ji either claimed, bestowed on someone or encouraged anyone to so claim.

Sat Sri Akal.​


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 2, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> A very very simple example. In a Class of 40 students from various backgrounds....the Punjabi word THAAL/THALEE has no meaning..even though i have a pile of them on my table. Whne I ask ..where are the Thalls..all blink at me....but the instant i mention..plate..saucer..etc etc...everyone UNDERSTANDS that what i am asking about are there in a pile right in front of me and all rush to hand me one....


Your argument is weak Gyani ji. and this just proves my point that made earlier. Plate and thalee mean the exact same thing. Anyways this is not a good analogy. Those are two different languages. In our case the language is the same. The same words are used.  A better example would be: You walk into the class and ask someone to hand you a thal. The class understands the word 'thal' so you go ahead use the word 'thal'. One of the students gets up and hands you a thal.

Bhagat Namdev ji (1270 -1350) is worshipping Ram and other incarnations of God like Narsingh. This is the same Ram (and Narsingh etc) that Swami Ramanand ji, his guru (and his Guru and so on) and his disciples - Bhagat Kabir ji, Bhagat Dhanna ji, etc (1400s-1500s) - are talking about is the same Ram that Guru Sahibs are talking about (1500 onwards). They are not even using different words. It's the same Ram, Raja Ram Chandra, the incarnation of God, son of Dasrath, slayer of Raavan.


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## vipkolon (Apr 2, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Our Guru ji were of Hindu lineage.  They discovered and wanted to create a future beyond Hinduism.  That future in brevity has come to be known as Sikhism.
> 
> In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Guru ji and other writers shattered so many myths of Hiduism, spoke up against ill direction provided by the then purveyors of Hinduism, to some extent also the then leaders or people in-charge of Islam.  So to me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was composed for the following purpose,
> 
> ...


Hinduism is not a religion. It is a way of life where too much liberty is allowed. Anybody is free to adopt any philosophy and no body is there to criticize him. This is good as free flow of thoughts is allowed. In contrast in Islam, too much conservatism is there where you are not free to express your thoughts. That is why many Sufi saints were butchered by orthodox Mullahs who themselves do not know the true tenets of their religion. That is why many Sikh Gurus were also tortured by them. But again, there is one drawback in being too liberal as it also exists in Hinduism, it may miss the mark for a true seeker as environment for spirituality may not be generated. Spirituality requires clarity of thoughts, focused approach, self restraint and discipline. When a religion becomes old, then ritualism comes in and reality is lost; the same happened in Hinduism many times and God then sends his saints or himself comes in human form (like Guru Nanak) to awaken the sleeping spirits. Not everyone is interested in spirituality, very few are real lovers of God. It was the good luck of India and Punjab that ten Gurus came and brought a new light to Indian soil. As Sikhism is very recent (only 400-500 year old) one can still see the sign of dynamism, discipline and devotion in face of many Sikhs and they are the cream of India which even Hindus admire. But again you see the greatness of Hinduism, they do not hesitate to read Gurbani or revere Guru Sahibs and nobody criticizes them. But now in Sikhism, ritualism has set which is propagated by persons of vested interests (Politicians and religious heads) who misinterpret Gurbani as per their personal agenda and fool the common sikh. They propogate rituals which were criticized by Guru Nanak. They concentrate more on outward dress code, rituals etc, than stressing on spiritual meditation taught by Guru Sahibs. They try to restrict Gurbani to Sikhs only but in reality Gurbani should be taught to all people of world as light of Akal Purukh cannot be restricted to Sikhs. Sikhs should become role model so that they can glorify their community, their Guru Sahibs and their country (India in particular as it is the land of so many saints.)


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 4, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Your argument is weak Gyani ji. and this just proves my point that made earlier. Plate and thalee mean the exact same thing. Anyways this is not a good analogy. Those are two different languages. In our case the language is the same. The same words are used. A better example would be: You walk into the class and ask someone to hand you a thal. The class understands the word 'thal' so you go ahead use the word 'thal'. One of the students gets up and hands you a thal.
> 
> Bhagat Namdev ji (1270 -1350) is worshipping Ram and other incarnations of God like Narsingh. This is the same Ram (and Narsingh etc) that Swami Ramanand ji, his guru (and his Guru and so on) and his disciples - Bhagat Kabir ji, Bhagat Dhanna ji, etc (1400s-1500s) - are talking about is the same Ram that Guru Sahibs are talking about (1500 onwards). They are not even using different words. It's the same Ram, Raja Ram Chandra, the incarnation of God, son of Dasrath, slayer of Raavan.


 
Bhagats have made clear distinction betweem RAM as Joti and RAM(U) as 
Son of Dashrath.All bhagats are giving the message of worship for RAM as NAAM(u) only.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 4, 2012)

vipkolon said:


> Hinduism is not a religion. It is a way of life where too much liberty is allowed. Anybody is free to adopt any philosophy and no body is there to criticize him. This is good as free flow of thoughts is allowed. In contrast in Islam, too much conservatism is there where you are not free to express your thoughts. That is why many Sufi saints were butchered by orthodox Mullahs who themselves do not know the true tenets of their religion. That is why many Sikh Gurus were also tortured by them. But again, there is one drawback in being too liberal as it also exists in Hinduism, it may miss the mark for a true seeker as environment for spirituality may not be generated. Spirituality requires clarity of thoughts, focused approach, self restraint and discipline. When a religion becomes old, then ritualism comes in and reality is lost; the same happened in Hinduism many times and God then sends his saints or himself comes in human form (like Guru Nanak) to awaken the sleeping spirits. Not everyone is interested in spirituality, very few are real lovers of God. It was the good luck of India and Punjab that ten Gurus came and brought a new light to Indian soil. As Sikhism is very recent (only 400-500 year old) one can still see the sign of dynamism, discipline and devotion in face of many Sikhs and they are the cream of India which even Hindus admire. But again you see the greatness of Hinduism, they do not hesitate to read Gurbani or revere Guru Sahibs and nobody criticizes them. But now in Sikhism, ritualism has set which is propagated by persons of vested interests (Politicians and religious heads) who misinterpret Gurbani as per their personal agenda and fool the common sikh. They propogate rituals which were criticized by Guru Nanak. They concentrate more on outward dress code, rituals etc, than stressing on spiritual meditation taught by Guru Sahibs. They try to restrict Gurbani to Sikhs only but in reality Gurbani should be taught to all people of world as light of Akal Purukh cannot be restricted to Sikhs. Sikhs should become role model so that they can glorify their community, their Guru Sahibs and their country (India in particular as it is the land of so many saints.)


 
No one is rstricting the reading of Gurbanee .Any one from any place irresepective of Creed/Caste/religion can read SGGS .
The important question is related to interpretation of Gurbanee.In fact persons with different background of faith try to interprate Gurbanee in their own ways.Whereas the real Gurmati view  may be quite different from their understanding.
Therefore any one making interpretation of Gurbanee should be first familiar with the understanding of Gurbanee messages as per Gurmati view.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## vipkolon (Apr 4, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> No one is rstricting the reading of Gurbanee .Any one from any place irresepective of Creed/Caste/religion can read SGGS .
> The important question is related to interpretation of Gurbanee.In fact persons with different background of faith try to interprate Gurbanee in their own ways.Whereas the real Gurmati view  may be quite different from their understanding.
> Therefore any one making interpretation of Gurbanee should be first familiar with the understanding of Gurbanee messages as per Gurmati view.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


In how many languages, Gurbani has been translated? Are there any spiritual centers where people of any religions are free to know and discuss about Gurbani. Why Sikhism has not expanded beyond Indian shores? There may be some adherents from other religions and nationalities but they are few. Spiritual knowledge is universal and persons spiritual in nature from any religion or nationality can understand the esoteric knowledge. Real Gurmati view is same as spiritual truth taught by saints from other religions.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 4, 2012)

vipkolon ji you may want to pay attention to the thread topic and specifics.  This ranting about our Guru ji the same as all other saints (there are no saints in Sikhism).  The ranting about Hinduism knowledge and Sikhism Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being the same is covered as a distraction in many a threads with counter-productive results of taking threads off-topic.  You may want to start own thread about all this in the Interfaith section.





vipkolon said:


> In how many languages, Gurbani has been translated?


_This is a self help forum.  Do the research rather than pose incessant questions.  Try to add value and clarity, not confusion._

_Questions come thousand a Rupee/Dollar/Pound, meaningful answers are harder._


vipkolon said:


> Are there any spiritual centers where people of any religions are free to know and discuss about Gurbani.


_If you feel a necessity for this why not open one.  When you complain about others remember you are complaining about self as a Sikh._


vipkolon said:


> Why Sikhism has not expanded beyond Indian shores?


_Sikhism is not based on __*proselytism*__.  We share openly but do not convert directly or indirectly.
_


vipkolon said:


> Spiritual knowledge is universal and persons spiritual in nature from any religion or nationality can understand the esoteric knowledge.


_The issues are not in the knowledge but how sharing is practiced.  Brahmins hoarding it and controlling.  The Christians asking to believe versus learn.  The Muslims pushing to believe as it is word of Allah.  Sikhism does none of these.  It encourages understanding to those who want to understand and helps along the way to enable such but not to convert or lead in blind faith._


vipkolon said:


> Real Gurmati view is same as spiritual truth taught by saints from other religions.


_Again go to the interfaith forum and perhaps start a suitable thread and expand on your thoughts.  There may be value but Sikhs have no saints so I don't see the purpose of comparing Apples to Oranges.

_Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 4, 2012)

VIPKOLON Ji,
If you feel that the real Gurmati view is tha same as spritual truth taught by saints from other religions then you are grossly mistaken .It would nice of you to give an y example of spritual message being the same that is the same as Gurmati view.
There may be some similarities in views but the fundamentals of Gurbanee are unique and entirely different from all other views of the time till date..
But I do admit that messages of Gurbanee have not reached the masses the way it should have been .Gurbanee understanding is still in its infancy stage.Even the Sikhs are yet trying to comprehend the true essence of Gurbanee.Till date what ever interpretations are availabe still require some refinement (This i Personally think so) and I am sure some better understanding would deinitely emerge from this excercise.
This is important to realise .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Parma (Apr 4, 2012)

So then the interpretation from a source was correct that I posted! That's ok then. Maybe the word is not Parmatma and instead Parmatam but I guess the meaning is the same of the words. From reading some of the posts above to make a clarification there are saints in sikhism, Bhagat means Saint, we have Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Fareed may have spelt is wrong, and there are others! Just my add to the debate thank you all very much I am thankfull for your all your help on my journey, and may waheguru bless you allpeacesign


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 4, 2012)

Parma ji if it helps some thoughts,





Parma said:


> So then the interpretation from a source was correct that I posted! That's ok then. Maybe the word is not Parmatma and instead _Parmatam_ but I guess the meaning is the same of the words.


_ATAMu____*ਆਤਮੁ* = ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪ, *ਆਪਣਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ*। ==> Spiritual Living versus "Soul" (Atma)

*PARMATAMu would be* the ==>  Spiritual ways of the creator or "Supreme Soul" (Parmatma)
_

_Parm --->  premier, supreme _
_Parma --->  Supreme one
_




Parma said:


> From reading some of the posts above to make a clarification there are saints in sikhism, Bhagat means Saint, we have Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Fareed may have spelt is wrong, and there are others! Just my add to the debate thank you all very much I am thankfull for your all your help on my journey, and may waheguru bless you allpeacesign


_Saint (Sant being more common word in Punjabi) in traditional western vernacular can have significant different connotations (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/saint).  For us as long as we keep note of that all is good._

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Bhagats have made clear distinction betweem RAM as Joti and RAM(U) as
> Son of Dashrath.All bhagats are giving the message of worship for RAM as NAAM(u) only.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


What I am trying to say is that Ram, Krishna, Hari have been worshipped by Bhagats and Gurus from all periods of time from 1200s-1600s and these are referring to their Jyot and their form, *simultaneously*. This is key. They are referring to e.g. the Son of Dasrath and God in the same breath. Their belief is that Ram Chandra is God. That Krishna is God.

The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship: Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna) ... I could go on... these are referring to Vishnu and his incarnations, God and his incarnations, specifically. These names cannot be referring to anything else. The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship the One as these incarnations, ie, through their Naam.

You'll notice Brahma and Shiva are never mentioned at the same level. According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they are not the all-pervading, supreme Lord; that is Vishnu. They don't understand the Lord, nor comprehend His limits.

What we try and do now is divorce the name from the mythology. That is fine because the message is not limited to the mythology and those who know it. But the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are saying things that only make sense in light of the mythology. Practicing their message requires little understanding of the mythology but I think now that I started studying the mythology, my reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is much richer and makes heck of a lot more sense than it used to. It is also consistent with the history of northern India, the prevalent views, philosophies and spiritual practices... you know that moment when you put in the one missing piece of the puzzle and everything else makes sense.

Anyways, now that I understand this, I understand that this is only the tip of the iceberg. Things go much deeper than this. The bani of the Gurus and Bhagats is a window to the past!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 4, 2012)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I am certainly getting to your points but the basic point is that Gurbanee is all about NAAMu.
We generally understand the meaning of the word NAAMu as NAME whereas this is not so.
The meaning of the word NAAMu is not NAME  this is required to be understood.In Gurbanee the proper word for NAME is NAA-U.

Further the whole Gurbannee is based on the word GuRoo(The word GuR with Two underlines under its last letter R).Unless this word GuRoo is properly understood it would be rather difficult to understand the real essence of Gurbanee.

The most important point of understanding Gurbanee is that knowing the proper reference for understanding of Gurbanee.You will notice that this reference is the word PRABHu and the end reference of Gurbanee is HARi NAAMu or RAM NAAMu of this PRABHu only. These two references for Gurbanee understanding are well and vividly set by Guru Nanak ji thru out .

Now you can see if anywhere the One VISHANu (You refer in your message) is being refered as PRABHu .If you find so then your point of view should be fully acceptable.But actually it is not so.You should verify this .
Having known this we should develop true understanding of Gurbanee.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 4, 2012)

Prakash Singh ji
Well that is getting to other topics of Naam and Guru. My concern here is only with what the Guru is asking us to worship and that is Vishnu as the supreme Lord, Prabhu as you say, and his incarnations. Who we call Waheguru is referred to as Vishnu in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Bhai Gurdas ji clarifies this in his vaars: Waheguru is the Gurmantar that is composed of Wasudev, Hari, Gobind and Ram. 

The understanding of Vishnu (Naam) is not any different in the time of Gurus than in the past say 1200s. Their was a belief that Naam could only be obtained from a Guru. Gurmat is the way to liberation. 



			
				Prakash ji said:
			
		

> If you feel that the real Gurmati view is tha same as spritual truth taught by saints from other religions then you are grossly mistaken .It would nice of you to give an y example of spritual message being the same that is the same as Gurmati view.


 
Now the Gurmat form of the universal spiritual teaching is definitely unique. They are all unique. Some closer to others in language, others not so much. But in essence it is the same. E.g St John of the Cross isn't saying get "Naam from the Guru and attain Nirvana". He simply composes poems which speaks of that which the Guru calls Niravana.

He says


			
				St John of the Cross said:
			
		

> I was left there so absorbed,
> so entranced, and so removed,
> that my senses were abroad,
> robbed of all sensation proved,
> ...


If you know Nirvana then you know exactly what he is talking about. But he doesn't call it that.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I would like to see any such quote from SGGS where VISHNU is stated to be PRABHu or WAHi GuRoo as VISHNu.This should make the point more clear.And the message from SGGS is more authentic rather than what is written in other sources.Our final authority is SGGS.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Apr 5, 2012)

prakash.s.[SIZE=3 said:
			
		

> bagga[/SIZE];163253]BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
> I would like to see any such quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where VISHNU is stated to be PRABHu or WAHi GuRoo as VISHNu.This should make the point more clear.And the message from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is more authentic rather than what is written in other sources.Our final authority is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
I maybe intruding here, but reading the above -one verse came to mind from tha japji sahib that we have all heard many times
'  Gur isar, gur gorkh bharma, gur parbati maaieh' 
The guru is Shiva, guru is Vishnu and Brahma, guru is Parvati and Lakhshmi.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> I maybe intruding here, but reading the above -one verse came to mind from tha japji sahib that we have all heard many times
> ' Gur isar, gur gorkh bharma, gur parbati maaieh'
> The guru is Shiva, guru is Vishnu and Brahma, guru is Parvati and Lakhshmi.


 
You are right.Here it is very clear that for a Sikh only GuRu is everything.
So try to understand what is this GuRu in Gurbanee?

You can look at this quote too from Japu Banee as

Eka Maee Jugati Wihaee Tin Chele Parvan,
Ik Sansaari ,Ik bhandari,Ik laae Diban
Jiw Tisu Bhawae Tiwae chalawae,
Jiw howae furmaan
Ohu Vaekhe  Onaa Nadari Naa aawae
Bahutaa Ehu Vidaan
Ades Tisae Ades
Adi Aneel Anadi Anahati
Jug Jug EKo Waes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji,
Pl look at the following Quote from SGGs as pp 909 Raagu Ramkali M 3

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਅਚੇਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੧੫॥ 

त्रै गुण अचेत नामु चेतहि नाही बिनु नावै बिनसि जाई ॥१५॥ 

Ŧarai guṇ acẖeṯ nām cẖīṯėh nāhī bin nāvai binas jā▫ī. ||15|| 

Trapped by the three qualities, the unconscious person does not think of the Naam; without the Name, he wastes away. ||15|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਣਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ ॥੧੬॥ 

ब्रहमा बिसनु महेसु त्रै मूरति त्रिगुणि भरमि भुलाई ॥१६॥ 

Barahmā bisan mahes ṯarai mūraṯ ṯariguṇ bẖaram bẖulā▫ī. ||16|| 

The three forms of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are trapped in the three qualities, lost in confusion. ||16|| 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Apr 5, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> I maybe intruding here, but reading the above -one verse came to mind from tha japji sahib that we have all heard many times
> '  Gur isar, gur gorkh bharma, gur parbati maaieh'
> The guru is Shiva, guru is Vishnu and Brahma, guru is Parvati and Lakhshmi.



Luckyji

There is an absolute difference between WaheGuru/Prabh, ie Creator, and Guru, ie Teacher. 

I have no problem accepting Vishnu/Brahma/Ram as Teachers, spiritual Gurus, but they are not Creator, they are not the ultimate truth, without form, without birth, without death, they do not tick the boxes that fit in with how Creator is described. 

The line itself is

The guru is Shiva, guru is Vishnu and Brahma, guru is Parvati and Lakhshmi.

This confirms that the SGGS is interested only in Creator, not in having a monopoly on the path to enlightenment. 

The constant reference to this line, in my view, in the wrong context, only furthers the confusion and strengthens the Vedic interference in Sikhism

Regards


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
I fully endorse your views but with some reservations to the word GuRu.
Pl look at the Quote as
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ 

गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥ 

Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī. 



You will notice that in Gurmukhi script the word GuR is with a single line under its letter R which is not depicted in translitration to Roman .This needs to be understood very well.
I think when you write the word GuRu you refer to the word GuR with two lines under its last letter R.(Which I prefer to write as GuRoo)

This distiction makes a great difference in the overall understanding of Gurbanee messages.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
I would like to share some views in respect of Brahma,Vishanu and Mahesh.
In Hindu Philosophy these three together are represtation of POWER for creation of physical forms of the universe.In this context only we learn from Gurbanee that there are several Brahmas,Several Vishanus and Several Maheshas.
These three together as TRINITY in Hindu philosophy are denoted by Single word as ONKAAR.Brahma ,Vishanu and Mahesh by themselves have no physical form.Since they are considered as GOD so they have their respective GODDESS too.

When we think of form this is concerned some sort of Physical Form.
When we say CREATOR is FORMLESS it relates to Physical Form whereas CREATOR may have its own FORM so in this sense CREATOR is not FORMLESS as we think.
So try to understand this FORM of CREATOR then you will have still better understanding of CREATOR and its expansion as being envisaged in Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Apr 5, 2012)

Prakashji, 

If I were a baddie in a bond movie, I would be saying about now, 'ah Mr Bond, I have been expecting you' lol

Could you explain, in a clear a fashion as possible, what Gur and GuRoo, means, as although we have discussed this many, many times, I do not believe we ever got to a conclusion, which is a shame, because I am genuinely interested in the differences

regards


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## Harry Haller (Apr 5, 2012)

Prakashji

What you are saying is that the trinity that exists in the Christianity through the father, son and holy ghost, the trinity that exists in Hinduism, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, also exists in Sikhism?

This to me seems to go against the very simple concept of Ek Onkar, although if one were to embrace this concept, is this where the Eukamkwar concept marries in?

I find it hard to believe that something so simple as one Creator, no form, could in fact be a trinity with form, but I am always interested to see how different interpretations have been arrived at, so if you could explain the trinity in a bit more detail, without the need for quotations, just a general overview, I would be in your debt

kind regards


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji
> 
> What you are saying is that the trinity that exists in the Christianity through the father, son and holy ghost, the trinity that exists in Hinduism, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, also exists in Sikhism?
> 
> ...


 
I did not say that trinity existed in Sikhisim.You have probably miscostrued what I have written.If you tell me how you understood so from what I have written I may clarify you accordingly.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji,
> 
> If I were a baddie in a bond movie, I would be saying about now, 'ah Mr Bond, I have been expecting you' lol
> 
> ...


 
If you can understand the difference between a PAIR OF PENCIL and a PENCIL I think you can get to the meaning of the words GuRoo and GuRu.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Apr 5, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> If you can understand the difference between a PAIR OF PENCIL and a PENCIL I think you can get to the meaning of the words GuRoo and GuRu.
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Prakashji, 

So I may understand fully, do you mean a pair of pencils or a pair of pencil

thank you


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji,
> 
> So I may understand fully, do you mean a pair of pencils or a pair of pencil
> 
> thank you


 
Now you can understand GuRoo as <GuRu.GuRu><GURU.GURU><GURU.GURU>

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,

So you can understand the word GuRoo as <GuRu.GuRu> or <GuRoo.GuRoo>

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Apr 5, 2012)

Prakashiji

You get me all excited and ready, and then come all over all coy and distant when the time comes to play! 

neither of your last two posts make much sense, its almost like you can make such perfect sense one moment and then make no sense at all the next. 

However in the history of posts that make no sense, the last two really take the biscuit. 

I would be really grateful  if you could just say, in a short sentence , what the difference is between the two, 

Thanking you in advance


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 5, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
In fact in my last posts I was getting incomplete message posted for reasons unknown so I could not complete the message.Although I tried to edit but failed to do so.
I have no problem in clarifying this if you are really interested.

I was trying to give you the message that now you can understand the word GuRoo as <GuRu.GuRu>.
In this GuRu is a Single word  where as GuRoo represents a pair of this Single word.
How the word GuRoo is for a pair it is because of its grammar.(I dont know whether you are familiar with this type of grammar of word or not).This should certainly be a surprise for anyone to see this.But this is the fact from the grammar of the words of the script of SGGS .
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## mandemeet (Apr 5, 2012)

_"quote:_

_What I am trying to say is that Ram, Krishna, Hari have been worshipped by Bhagats and Gurus from all periods of time from 1200s-1600s and these are referring to their Jyot and their form, *simultaneously*. This is key. They are referring to e.g. the Son of Dasrath and God in the same breath. Their belief is that Ram Chandra is God. That Krishna is God.

The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship: Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna) ... I could go on... these are referring to Vishnu and his incarnations, God and his incarnations, specifically. These names cannot be referring to anything else. The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship the One as these incarnations, ie, through their Naam ( quote by Bhagat Singh._


*Respected Bhagat Singh ji*
You have distorted the Gurbani to support your own thinking just because you couldn’t understand why those names are referred to. Just for your information, this is what Guru Nanak thinks about Ram Chandra ji and Krishan ji:
*953-954 Sri Guru Granth Sahib*
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
Rovai rām nikālā bẖa▫i▫ā. 
Rama wept when he was exiled, 
ਨਿਕਾਲਾ = ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ।
ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਭੀ ਰੋਏ, ਜਦੋਂ ਰਾਮ (ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ……

A person who feels bad on such occasion, how he should be worshiped as God; don’t you know that Gurbani says one who becomes one with Akalpurakh takes good or bad alike?
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥
Rovėh pāŉdav bẖa▫e majūr. 
Became servants and wailed the Pandwas, 
xxx
(ਪੰਜੇ) ਪਾਂਡੋ ਜਦੋਂ (ਵੈਰਾਟ ਰਾਜੇ ਦੇ) ਮਜ਼ੂਰ ਬਣੇ ਤਾਂ ਰੋਏ,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
Jin kai su▫āmī rahaṯ haḏūr. 
whose Master lived with them. 
ਸੁਆਮੀ = ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ।
(ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਿ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ (ਪਾਂਡਵਾਂ) ਦੇ ਪਾਸ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਸਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੱਖ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ
Krishan ji couldn’t help Pandav though people called him Swami (Master/God), isn't it sarcastic ?

WHO DOESN’T CRY FOR SUCH THINGS?
ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne nā▫o so▫ī jiṇ jā▫e. 
He, who believes in the Name, becomes victorious. 
ਜਿਣਿ = ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ।
ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਪਤੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ) ਉਹ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, 

ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
A▫urī karam na lekẖai lā▫e. ||1|| 
No other deed is of any account. 
ਅਉਰੀ = ਹੋਰ ॥੧॥
('ਨਾਮ' ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ ਜਿੱਤਣ ਲਈ) ਸਫਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ॥੧
Guru Nanak is all for All Pervading Akalpurakh.


*ON Krishan, 470 Sri Guru Granth Sahib:*
ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
Juj mėh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥkrisan jāḏam bẖa▫i▫ā. 
In the time of Yujar Veda, Kan Krishan of Yadva tribe seduced Chandrawli by force. 
ਜੋਰਿ = ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ, ਧੱਕੇ ਨਾਲ। ਜਾਦਮੁ = 'ਜਦੁ' ਕੁਲ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ।
ਯਜੁਰ ਵੇਦ (ਵਿਚ ਭਾਵ, ਦੁਆਪਰ ਵਿਚ) ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਂਵਲ 'ਜਾਦਮੁ' ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਪਰਸਿੱਧ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਛਲ ਲਿਆਂਦਾ,

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ 
Pārjāṯ gopī lai ā▫i▫ā binḏrāban mėh rang kī▫ā. 
He brought the elysian tree for his milk-maid and revelled in Bindraban. 
ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ = ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਰੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਰਲ ਕੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਨੂੰ ਰਿੜਕਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਲੇ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਰੁੱਖ ਸੀ। ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਰੁੱਖ ਉਸ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪੁੱਟ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚ ਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ। ਇਹ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਰਾਜਾ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੀ ਧੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੀ। ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਵਧੀਆ ਜਾਤੀ ਦੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਦੱਸੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਪੰਜੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਹਨ: ਮੰਦਾਰ, ਪਾਰਜਾਤ, ਸੰਤਾਨ, ਕਲਪ-ਰੁੱਖ ਤੇ ਹਰੀ ਚੰਦਨ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ = ਇਕ ਗੋਪੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੀ। ਇਹ ਰਾਧਾ ਦੀ ਚਚੇਰੀ ਭੈਣ ਸੀ, ਰਾਧਾ ਦੇ ਪਿਤਾ ਵ੍ਰਿਖਭਾਨ ਦੇ ਜੇਠੇ ਭਰਾ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਭਾਨ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਲੜਕੀ ਸੀ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਨਾਲ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਗਈ ਸੀ, ਜੋ ਕਰਲਾ ਨਾਮਕ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਸੀ। ਗੋਪੀ = 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਗੋਪੀ ਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ।
ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਗੋਪੀ (ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਰੁੱਖ (ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੌਤਕ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ


Gur Nanak dev ji is describing treachery of Krishan ji, why? To tell that, such a way, the Creator is not realized; then how the Creator is realized, in the end Guru Nanak says:
ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥
Bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ kar nīcẖ saḏā▫e. 
When a person cherishs love and meditation of God and calls himself lowly, 
xxx
(ਪਰ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ-ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਅਖਵਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ) 

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥
Ŧa▫o Nānak mokẖanṯar pā▫e. ||2|| 
it is then, O Nanak that he obtains salvation. 
xxx॥੨॥
ਤਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨

NOT BY TAKING OTHER”S WOMAN WITH TRICKS. 
You need to understand the contexts and the names used for the Creator before judging Bhagtas and the Gurus and saying they worshiped Ram Chandra ji and Krishn ji. All miracles kinds of deeds are credited to only All Pervading Akalpurakh not those who were bearing those names

Regards
Mandemeet


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## mandemeet (Apr 5, 2012)

_"quote:_

_What I am trying to say is that Ram, Krishna, Hari have been worshipped by Bhagats and Gurus from all periods of time from 1200s-1600s and these are referring to their Jyot and their form, *simultaneously*. This is key. They are referring to e.g. the Son of Dasrath and God in the same breath. Their belief is that Ram Chandra is God. That Krishna is God.

The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship: Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna) ... I could go on... these are referring to Vishnu and his incarnations, God and his incarnations, specifically. These names cannot be referring to anything else. The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship the One as these incarnations, ie, through their Naam ( quote by Bhagat Singh._


*Respected Bhagat Singh ji*
You have distorted the Gurbani to support your own thinking just because you couldn’t understand why those names are referred to. Just for your information, this is what Guru Nanak thinks about Ram Chandra ji and Krishan ji:
*953-954 Sri Guru Granth Sahib*
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
Rovai rām nikālā bẖa▫i▫ā. 
Rama wept when he was exiled, 
ਨਿਕਾਲਾ = ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ।
ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਭੀ ਰੋਏ, ਜਦੋਂ ਰਾਮ (ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ……

A person who feels bad on such occasion, how he should be worshiped as God; don’t you know that Gurbani says one who becomes one with Akalpurakh takes good or bad alike?
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥
Rovėh pāŉdav bẖa▫e majūr. 
Became servants and wailed the Pandwas, 
xxx
(ਪੰਜੇ) ਪਾਂਡੋ ਜਦੋਂ (ਵੈਰਾਟ ਰਾਜੇ ਦੇ) ਮਜ਼ੂਰ ਬਣੇ ਤਾਂ ਰੋਏ,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
Jin kai su▫āmī rahaṯ haḏūr. 
whose Master lived with them. 
ਸੁਆਮੀ = ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ।
(ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਿ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ (ਪਾਂਡਵਾਂ) ਦੇ ਪਾਸ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਸਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੱਖ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ
Krishan ji couldn’t help Pandav though people called him Swami (Master/God), isn't it sarcastic ?

WHO DOESN’T CRY FOR SUCH THINGS?
ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne nā▫o so▫ī jiṇ jā▫e. 
He, who believes in the Name, becomes victorious. 
ਜਿਣਿ = ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ।
ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਪਤੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ) ਉਹ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, 

ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
A▫urī karam na lekẖai lā▫e. ||1|| 
No other deed is of any account. 
ਅਉਰੀ = ਹੋਰ ॥੧॥
('ਨਾਮ' ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ ਜਿੱਤਣ ਲਈ) ਸਫਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ॥੧
Guru Nanak is all for All Pervading Akalpurakh.


*ON Krishan, 470 Sri Guru Granth Sahib:*
ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
Juj mėh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥkrisan jāḏam bẖa▫i▫ā. 
In the time of Yujar Veda, Kan Krishan of Yadva tribe seduced Chandrawli by force. 
ਜੋਰਿ = ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ, ਧੱਕੇ ਨਾਲ। ਜਾਦਮੁ = 'ਜਦੁ' ਕੁਲ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ।
ਯਜੁਰ ਵੇਦ (ਵਿਚ ਭਾਵ, ਦੁਆਪਰ ਵਿਚ) ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਂਵਲ 'ਜਾਦਮੁ' ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਪਰਸਿੱਧ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਛਲ ਲਿਆਂਦਾ,

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ 
Pārjāṯ gopī lai ā▫i▫ā binḏrāban mėh rang kī▫ā. 
He brought the elysian tree for his milk-maid and revelled in Bindraban. 
ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ = ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਰੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਰਲ ਕੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਨੂੰ ਰਿੜਕਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਲੇ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਰੁੱਖ ਸੀ। ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਰੁੱਖ ਉਸ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪੁੱਟ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚ ਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ। ਇਹ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਰਾਜਾ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੀ ਧੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੀ। ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਵਧੀਆ ਜਾਤੀ ਦੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਦੱਸੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਪੰਜੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਹਨ: ਮੰਦਾਰ, ਪਾਰਜਾਤ, ਸੰਤਾਨ, ਕਲਪ-ਰੁੱਖ ਤੇ ਹਰੀ ਚੰਦਨ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ = ਇਕ ਗੋਪੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੀ। ਇਹ ਰਾਧਾ ਦੀ ਚਚੇਰੀ ਭੈਣ ਸੀ, ਰਾਧਾ ਦੇ ਪਿਤਾ ਵ੍ਰਿਖਭਾਨ ਦੇ ਜੇਠੇ ਭਰਾ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਭਾਨ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਲੜਕੀ ਸੀ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਨਾਲ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਗਈ ਸੀ, ਜੋ ਕਰਲਾ ਨਾਮਕ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਸੀ। ਗੋਪੀ = 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਗੋਪੀ ਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ।
ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਗੋਪੀ (ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਰੁੱਖ (ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੌਤਕ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ


Gur Nanak dev ji is describing treachery of Krishan ji, why? To tell that, such a way, the Creator is not realized; then how the Creator is realized, in the end Guru Nanak says:
ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥
Bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ kar nīcẖ saḏā▫e. 
When a person cherishs love and meditation of God and calls himself lowly, 
xxx
(ਪਰ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ-ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਅਖਵਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ) 

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥
Ŧa▫o Nānak mokẖanṯar pā▫e. ||2|| 
it is then, O Nanak that he obtains salvation. 
xxx॥੨॥
ਤਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨

NOT BY TAKING OTHER”S WOMAN WITH TRICKS. 
You need to understand the contexts and the names used for the Creator before judging Bhagtas and the Gurus and saying they worshiped Ram Chandra ji and Krishn ji. All miracles kinds of deeds are credited to only All Pervading Akalpurakh not those who were bearing those names

Regards
Mandemeet


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 5, 2012)

Mandemeet ji thanks for your post.  Welcome to spn as I believe you recently joined.

Great research, effort and to the point.  Please keep up the good work and sharing so we all learn.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 5, 2012)

Bhagat kabir Ji so clearly and transparently declares that all the public cry our..Raam Raam raam....BUT dear friends..there is a very clear and HUGE difference between what the "public" cry out Raam Raam and MY RAAM....One Raam is a Human..a person a... a Dramabaaz...an ACTOR...the OTHER Raam is the All Pervading CREATOR.

DAY..and NIGHT....PITCH Black...Snow WHITE...yet we insist on saying..NO NO..Bhagat Kabir Ji..beleieves in the SAME Raam that was Son of dasrath..husband of Sita..destroyer of Raavna and Lanka..Army commander of hanumans army of Monkeys etc etc etc..and whose Temples.and Mandirs dot the Indian landscape..in whose name the Historic babari masjid was destroyed...that is the Raam bhagats mention....

Is it only self deception..or deception on purpose...covering ones-self in a thick blanket may begin to look like "Night" under the Blazing Mid day SUN...but no matter how many Thick Blankets we THROW UP into the SKY to make sure .."everyone" also begins to "feel night" at 12 NOON..is a difficult task but we continue to persevere...bravo.

The BHAGATS whose Gurbani stands chosen for inclsuion in the SGGS....the Gurus..the Dooms, the SHEIKHS, each and every single contributor of SGGS hold Fast to the Very SAME PRINCIPLE...The CREATOR that is MENTIONED in the MOOL MANTAR is the ONE and ONLY Creator and NO ONE ELSE..not Raam..not Krishan..not vishnu..not kali ammah..not vaishnu devi..not sheran valli..not...not...not...not...not...not...NOT. period. THIS ONE and ONLY CREATOR...EK - OANGKAAR NEVER comes to EARTH in any form/avtaar/whatever and Never has. Period. But if one wants to bury ones self under a thick carpet and cry its night at 12 noon..you are most welcome...carry on...BUT DONT place those carpets on the Bhagats or the Gurus becasue they TORE those "carpets" to SHREDS  ....Centuries ago.. even the the "dust" has long gone.......let alone the shreds...
Thank you Madenmeet Ji.


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## Luckysingh (Apr 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> There is an absolute difference between WaheGuru/Prabh, ie Creator, and Guru, ie Teacher.
> 
> ...


To ALL Jios 
OK, There is no monoply on the path and I'm not sure that some fully understand the reasons why Guru Nanak started to mention the vedic gods. We can't just disregard it as vedic interference (as Harryji states) because we want no association with it.
We have to understand that the vedic quotes by the gurus are there for a reason.-At the times, people lived by these beliefs so much- so they had to be addressed. -They were addressed but they were not disregarded as myths.

Bottom line- I'll get straight to the point of why- 

All hindu  gods each have their own role and association in the religion. For instance, Vishnu is god of protection and preservation, Rama is the incarnation of Vishnu. Brahma =the creator, Shiva=destroyer, Laxmi=goddess of wealth and prosperity, Vishnu and Laxmi are a couple that always reincarnate together- so Rama and Sita were infact reincarnations of Vishnu and Laxmi.... and so on......-many incarnations for all of them....

Now as far as I know, these beliefs in the deities have been there for a long time and will always be there for the hindu faith.

All references in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib inform us that ALL these gods are ONE. Thats it, we don't need a separate lord for wealth, a separate for creation, one for protection, one for strength.. etc...etc.....etc... 
BUT, all of these godly values come from the ONE formless, eternal creator.
I also deduce that there is NO Vishnu reincarnatining umpteen times as a different God everytime. BUT- It is Just the ONE creator that can take as many and whatever forms that we see. There is no Vishnu and Laxmi coming in the form of Ram and Sita
 BUT- just the ONE all along.

Quite simply, there is ONE creator, lord, Waheguru, God, Ram, Allah..Up there and all around...AND there is Human MANKIND-down here -FULL STOP- 
NO inbetween gods, sons or daughters of god, or gods and goddesses chosen by God for specific purposes, nothing else except ALL of us here as equals and the creator above us all. There was of course our Guru's that can be regarded as above us on the scale- BUT even they made it clear that we were NOT to worship them but to only worship the ONE true Lord.

Using ram ram, hari hari, satnaam or waheguru makes NO difference, if we are referring to the ONE. He doesn't mind who or what we call him.

Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (Apr 6, 2012)

> I also deduce that there is NO Vishnu reincarnatining umpteen times as a different God everytime. BUT- It is Just the ONE creator that can take as many and whatever forms that we see.



Luckyji, 

You are trying to compromise, and I respect that, but Creator has no physical form, does not take a physical form. 

My own view is that an acceptance that Jesus, Vishnu et al were Guru's in their own way, but were not Creator in a physical manifestation, as such could not exist, given what we know about Creator and Sikhism


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 6, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> To ALL Jios
> OK, There is no monoply on the path and I'm not sure that some fully understand the reasons why Guru Nanak started to mention the vedic gods. We can't just disregard it as vedic interference (as Harryji states) because we want no association with it.
> We have to understand that the vedic quotes by the gurus are there for a reason.-At the times, people lived by these beliefs so much- so they had to be addressed. -They were addressed but they were not disregarded as myths.
> 
> ...


 
If we give a thinking to a quote from SGGS ji as

"RAM NAAM(U) Uru Main Gayeo  JAKE SUM NAHEE KOE
JIH SIMRAT SANKAT MITE DARS TUHAO HOE"

Pp1429 SGGSji

What is this RAM NAAMu GuRu ji is telling about?There is Nothing equal to this RAM NAAMu  and this RAM NAAMu iserves two purposes simultaneously as All ill barriers of life are removed and you get the DARSAN of Creator too.
This RAM NAAMu is ONLY ONE and different from all other NAAM.
This is important to understand.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2012)

Time for some heavy-lifting and cognitive dissonance. Ready?

Some basic theology of Sikhism:
1. There is the Ultimate Reality, it is both Sargun (form) and Nirgun (formless) - by what name is this referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Brahmn (not Brahma) Parbrahmn, Parmesar, Bhagwan, Ishwar, Akal/Aad Purakh, Hari (Vishnu/Krishna Murare) and Ram Chandra. The latter two being the most prominent of all names of the Ultimate Reality. So the mythology that is revered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that of Vishnu, as he is considered the Ultimate Reality. Now since Vishnu is the Ultimate Reality. All of the below are actually referring to the Ultimate Reality, Vishnu.


			
				 Bhagat said:
			
		

> Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna)


They are not a coincidence or some deceptive tactic employed to persuade Hindus. This is the real deal! and it is about to become very clear in the quotes below.

2. Maya is the power of this Ultimate Reality, under whose influence the world operates. You cannot escape her. *Maya is that force by which the Ultimate Reality manifests itself.* Write this down. 

From this Ultimate Reality arises the creator - Brahma, sustainer - also called Vishnu and destroyer - Mahadev. 
Page 908, Line 1
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस इक मूरति आपे करता कारी ॥१२॥
Barahmā bisan mahes ik mūraṯ āpe karṯā kārī. ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
When the Ultimate Reality manifests, it does so as three Gunas/qualities - Rajas, Sattva and Tamas. Thus these three aspects of the Ultimate Reality are under the influence of these Gunas/qualities.




			
				 Prakash ji said:
			
		

> BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
> I would like to see any such quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where VISHNU is stated to be PRABHu or WAHi GuRoo as VISHNu.This should make the point more clear.And the message from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is more authentic rather than what is written in other sources.Our final authority is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


I agree whole heartedly. Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars were titled "the key to understanding Gurbani and it's context" by Guru Arjan Dev ji. But if that is not satisfactory we can simply stick to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
अचुत पारब्रहम परमेसुर अंतरजामी ॥
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī.
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
मधुसूदन दामोदर सुआमी ॥
Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su▫āmī.
Madhusudan - Krishna
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
रिखीकेस गोवरधन धारी मुरली मनोहर हरि रंगा ॥१॥
Rikẖīkes *govarḏẖan ḏẖārī* *murlī manohar* har rangā. ||1||
(Krishna lifts Govardhan in his mythology. He is the Murli Manohar, the flute player.)
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
मोहन माधव क्रिस्न मुरारे ॥
Mohan māḏẖav krisan murāre.
Mohan (Krishna), Madhav (Krishna), Krishna Murare
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
जगदीसुर हरि जीउ असुर संघारे ॥
Jagḏīsur har jī▫o asur sangẖāre.
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
जगजीवन अबिनासी ठाकुर घट घट वासी है संगा ॥२॥
Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
धरणीधर ईस नरसिंघ नाराइण ॥
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā▫iṇ.
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
दाड़ा अग्रे प्रिथमि धराइण ॥
Ḏāṛā agre paritham ḏẖarā▫iṇ.
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
बावन रूपु कीआ तुधु करते सभ ही सेती है चंगा ॥३॥
Bāvan rūp kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ karṯe sabẖ hī seṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi▫ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
सहस नेत्र मूरति है सहसा इकु दाता सभ है मंगा ॥४॥
Sahas neṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
भगति वछलु अनाथह नाथे ॥
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthe.
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
गोपी नाथु सगल है साथे ॥
Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthe.
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
बासुदेव निरंजन दाते बरनि न साकउ गुण अंगा ॥५॥
Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. ||5||
O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
मुकंद मनोहर लखमी नाराइण ॥
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ.
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
द्रोपती लजा निवारि उधारण ॥
Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.
Savior of Dropadi's honor. (Krishna)

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
कमलाकंत करहि कंतूहल अनद बिनोदी निहसंगा ॥६॥
Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
अमोघ दरसन आजूनी स्मभउ ॥
Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa▫o.
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; *He is not born, He is self-existent.*
Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
अकाल मूरति जिसु कदे नाही खउ ॥
Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏe nāhī kẖa▫o.
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
अबिनासी अबिगत अगोचर सभु किछु तुझ ही है लगा ॥७॥
Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
स्रीरंग बैकुंठ के वासी ॥
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī.
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
मछु कछु कूरमु आगिआ अउतरासी ॥
Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī.
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
केसव चलत करहि निराले कीता लोड़हि सो होइगा ॥८॥
Kesav cẖalaṯ karahi nirāle kīṯā loṛėh so ho▫igā. ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
निराहारी निरवैरु समाइआ ॥
Nirāhārī nirvair samā▫i▫ā.
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
धारि खेलु चतुरभुजु कहाइआ ॥
Ḏẖār kẖel cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā▫i▫ā.
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
सावल सुंदर रूप बणावहि बेणु सुनत सभ मोहैगा ॥९॥
Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāvėh beṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
बनमाला बिभूखन कमल नैन ॥
Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain.
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
सुंदर कुंडल मुकट बैन ॥
Sunḏar kundal mukat bain.
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
संख चक्र गदा है धारी महा सारथी सतसंगा ॥१०॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
पीत पीत्मबर त्रिभवण धणी ॥
Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
जगंनाथु गोपालु मुखि भणी ॥
Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
सारिंगधर भगवान बीठुला मै गणत न आवै सरबंगा ॥११॥
Sāringḏẖar bẖagvān bīṯẖulā mai gaṇaṯ na āvai sarbangā. ||11||
The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11|| 
Page 1082



ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. 

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? *Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.*

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?

ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.

*ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ* ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power (ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ - conch, chakram, mace and lotus - icons of Vishnu) , You deceived Baliraja (Ram Chandra decieves bali in order to bring Sugreve to power); who can know You?

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7|| 
.
.
.
page 1402



			
				 Gyani ji said:
			
		

> Bhagat kabir Ji so clearly and transparently declares that all the public cry our..Raam Raam raam....BUT dear friends..there is a very clear and HUGE difference between what the "public" cry out Raam Raam and MY RAAM....One Raam is a Human..a person a... a Dramabaaz...an ACTOR...the OTHER Raam is the All Pervading CREATOR.


FALSE
This is simply a misunderstanding of Bhagat Kabir's shabad. Raam was never believed to be human by any of the Bhagats or Gurus. Especially in light of the shabads above. Let me remind in the words of 5th Master: _"You are the Ram Chandra with no form or feature. Adorned in flowers and wielding the chakram, your form is incomparably beautiful."_ Raam Chandra is the Divine. He is Akal Purakh.

Let's look a this shabad and weed out of the ignorance propagated by it's popular mistranslation.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan (chant/repeat) mėh (inside) bẖeḏ (difference) hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabir says there is a difference in how you chant "Ram", and this is to be considered.


ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī (that very) rām sabẖai (everyone) kahėh so▫ī (that very) ka▫uṯakhār (miracle workers). ||190||

The same Ram is chanted by everyone (Saints) and the same Ram is chanted by miracle workers, those who (want to) obtain the various supernatural powers, ridhiyan sidhiyan.
||190||


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho (chant/repeat) kahibe (in how you chant) māhi (inside) bibek (bichar).

Kabir says, chant "Ramay Ram" but keep in mind that

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One merged (ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ - verb) in the many, and one merged in the one.

Meaning: The one who chanted to obtain supernatural powers, was lost in the many powers, was engrossed in Maya. The one who chanted with true faith and not for some reward was merged in the One and liberated. 
||191||


Essence: 
The idea of chanting and training the mind to obtain supernatural pwoers was/is very prevalent in India. (Whether or not it is possible) Kabir says, those who chant to obtain some goal of receiving supernatural powers, are lost in the world, in the "many", in the powers and their displays. *There is a difference in how you chant and that is in the intention*. The intentions are important. Are you chanting to gain something out of it or chanting with pure devotion?


Some wisdom from our Guru ji that drive down the point that Krishna and Ram Chandra (and other incarnations of God) are God.

Watch how the following are referred to as the Ultimate Reality:


			
				 Bhagat said:
			
		

> Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna)



ਪੰਨਾ 659, ਸਤਰ 7
ਤੁਮ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦ ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥੫॥੬॥
तुम सरनागति राजा राम चंद कहि रविदास चमारा ॥५॥६॥
Ŧum sarnāgaṯ rājā rām cẖanḏ kahi Raviḏās cẖamārā. ||5||6||
I have come to Your Sanctuary, Raja Ram Chandra; so says Ravi Daas, the shoemaker. ||5||6||


ਪੰਨਾ 973, ਸਤਰ 16
ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
जसरथ राइ नंदु राजा मेरा राम चंदु प्रणवै नामा ततु रसु अम्रितु पीजै ॥४॥४॥
Jasrath rā▫e nanḏ rājā merā rām cẖanḏ paraṇvai nāmā ṯaṯ ras amriṯ pījai. ||4||4||
My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra, the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv, I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||

ਪੰਨਾ 1429, ਸਤਰ 8
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਮੈ ਟੇਕ ਏਕ ਰਘੁਨਾਥ ॥੫੫॥
कहु नानक इह बिपति मै टेक एक रघुनाथ ॥५५॥
Kaho Nānak ih bipaṯ mai tek ek ragẖunāth. ||55||
Says Nanak, in this tragedy, Raghunath alone is my Support. ||55||
ਮਃ 9

ਪੰਨਾ 324, ਸਤਰ 13
ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
चतुराई न चतुरभुजु पाईऐ ॥ रहाउ ॥
Cẖaṯurā▫ī na cẖaṯurbẖuj pā▫ī▫ai. Rahā▫o.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord (Four-armed - Vishnu is always pictured with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands) is not obtained. ||Pause||
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ 

ਪੰਨਾ 1082, ਸਤਰ 14
ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
स्रीरंग बैकुंठ के वासी ॥
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī.
ਸ੍ਰੀ+ਰੰਗ: ਲੱਛਮੀ ਨਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਆਪੁ, ਬੈਕੁੰਠ:ਸਵਰਗ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਨਿਵਾਸ ਸਥਾਨ
Vishnu, the one who dances with Lakshmi and the dweller of Heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
मछु कछु कूरमु आगिआ अउतरासी ॥
Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī.
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
ਮਃ 5 



ਪੰਨਾ 93, ਸਤਰ 4
ਗਰਭ ਛੋਡਿ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੰਡਲ ਆਇਆ ਤਉ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿਆ ॥੧॥
गरभ छोडि म्रित मंडल आइआ तउ नरहरि मनहु बिसारिआ ॥१॥
Garabẖ cẖẖod miṯar mandal ā▫i▫ā ṯa▫o narhar manhu bisāri▫ā. ||1||
Leaving the womb, you entered this mortal world; you have forgotten Narsingh/Narhar from your mind. ||1||
ਭਗਤ ਬੇਣੀ ਜੀ 

ਪੰਨਾ 508, ਸਤਰ 4
ਨਾਥ ਨਰਹਰ ਦੀਨ ਬੰਧਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਦੇਵ ॥
नाथ नरहर दीन बंधव पतित पावन देव ॥
Nāth narhar ḏīn banḏẖav paṯiṯ pāvan ḏev.
O Lord, Man-lion Incarnate, Companion to the poor, Divine Purifier of sinners;
ਮਃ 5 

ਪੰਨਾ 98, ਸਤਰ 9
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
गुरमुखि संगी क्रिसन मुरारे ॥
Gurmukẖ sangī krisan murāre.
The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.
ਮਃ 5


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 6, 2012)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I must congratulate you for presenting the views which require serious attention for consideration of different NAMES used in Gurbanee.
Now the question is Do these Names actually are the references for VISHANu in Gurbanee.? This is most important question to get the answer for.

What is  ultimate reality being refered in Gurbanee.?The Ultimate in Gurbanee is being refered as GuR JOTi/Prabhu JoTi.This is the Ultimate reference in Gurbanee and this is as per Quote

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 290}
The ultimate Reality is being refered as  NIRANKAAR.in SGGS 
The meanings of the words SARGUN and NIRGUN also require attention.The meanings of these words are not related to any sort of FORM.
SARGUN is the reference for ATTRIBUTES of NIRANKAAR and
NIRGUN is the reference  for WITHOUT ATTRIBUTE of NIRANKAAR.

As far as manifestation of POWER of ULTIMATE REALITY as MAYA is concerned your concept is right.
From Gurbanee we learn that PERFECT JOTI (EKANKAARu) and Its POWER (ONKAAR)
both are pervading all over.(This is my understanding ,Many may not agree to this)
The PERFECT JOTi is also present within POWER(ONKAAR).

As a matter of fact this whole cocept of PERFECT JOTi(EKANKAARu) as well as POWER(ONKAAR) has been described in terms of the words GuRoo-GuRu and GuR (this also most of us dont agree)

Therefore all the NAMES refered in Gurbanee are for PURE and PERFECT GuR JoTi(EKANKAARu).GuRu Ji tells us to worship this GuR JoTi only thru NAAMu as HARiNAAMu/RAM NAAMu of this GuR JoTi .

Bhagat Singh Ji you are interprating Gurbanee considering VISHANu as the Ultimate Reality Which is not so in Gurbanee.Although it is so in Hindu Philosophy.

By now you should be able to understand the difference in Basic Philosophy of Gurbanee and that of Hindu Philosophy.

Since the whole Philosophy of Gurbanee is based on SINGLE WORD GURoo,there is no concept of GOD or GODDESSES in SGGS .IT is all GuRoo ..........................only

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2012)

Prakash ji,
This is the translation I go by.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥
सरगुन निरगुन निरंकार सुंन समाधी आपि ॥
Sargun nirgun nirankār sunn samāḏẖī āp.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.
ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥
आपन कीआ नानका आपे ही फिरि जापि ॥१॥
Āpan kī▫ā nānkā āpe hī fir jāp. ||1||
Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||

Gur Jot, Prabhu and Vishnu, Nirankar are one and the same. We worship Gurjot through Hari Naam and Ram Naam because Gurjot, Hari and Ram are the same. 

God is both form and formless. Guru ji is clear on this. According to them, an individual becomes enlightened when they see no difference between form and formless.

Now Ekankar and Ongkar mean the same thing to me. What difference do you see in them?

Gurbani is definitely Guru-oriented. That is we look towards and get our wisdom from the Guru and Guru alone. And developing wisdom is our only goal. Everything else, including this discussion, is trivial, with regards to our goals.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 6, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> This is the translation I go by.
> ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
> सलोकु ॥
> ...


 
You are taking the meaning of NIRANKAAR as FORMLESS whereas my understanding is that the meaning of this word is not FORMLESS.
NIRANKAAR itself is a FORM of EKANKAAR.
There is a lot of deviation in the understanding of the meaning of this word NIRANKAAR.
For FORMLESS the word is NIRAKAR.

Again Bhagat Singh ji you are confused with the reference of VISHANu in Gurbanee.No where in Gurbanee VISHANu is being refered as PRABHu.
In Gurbanee it is properly EKANKAARu which has been specifically refered as PRABhu(This you can verify)
Now is VISHANu being refered as EKANKAARu anywhere? If you make no difference in VISHANu and GuR Joti this is your own assumption  not the view of Gurbanee.
Gurbanee tells of PARBRAHM,PARMESAR and SATi GUR there is no reference of any GOD in SGGS .GOD word is totally inappropriate for interpretation of Gurbanee.This you can realise yourself.
Try to grasp the real meaning of the WORD GURoo you will have more clear understanding of Gurbanee references.

Also try to understand what is HARi NAAMu  and RAM NAAMu in Gurbanee.Are these same or different? Once you get the answer to this this would make you clear the significance of the word GURoo in Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 6, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your post.  Let us review another sabad,





BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> This is the translation I go by.
> ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
> सलोकु ॥
> ...


Here is the following and it shows that this kind of discussion went on basically driven by veda/Brahmin centric believers and I assume we have not learnt much inspite of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

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> ਆਪਣਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਲਹੀਐ ॥
> आपणा भाणा आपे जाणै गुर किरपा ते लहीऐ ॥
> Āpṇā bẖāṇā āpe jāṇai gur kirpā ṯe lahī▫ai.
> Only He Himself knows His Will. By Guru's Grace, it is grasped.
> ...


Seems pretty familiar what you think and it is almost 500 years later?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2012)

Prakash ji,
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ

What are your thoughts on the shabad I posted by Guru Arjan Dev ji on page 1082-3. That is the strongest support for my views as I cannot disagree with Guru Arjan Dev ji.

If by Gur jot we mean the "essence of Guru", the "wisdom of the Guru". Then this is no doubt Vishnu, the supreme reality. The Guru is trying to get us to see this reality.

What is the difference between Parbrahmn, Parmesar and Satiguru?

The only difference between Hari Naam and Ram Naam is the sound of the words. The mind has to be trained to focus on the these words as Guru ji says Dhun meh dhyan dhyan meh janiya gurmukh akat kahani

Ambarsaria ji,
I was thinking of that shabad when I said that this discussions is trivial. These are not some distant Pandits but you and I who are reading SGGS and discussing it. If we do not meditate, develop wisdom and develop a virtuous character along with teh discussion then the discussion is undoubtedly fruitless.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 6, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ
> 
> What are your thoughts on the shabad I posted by Guru Arjan Dev ji on page 1082-3. That is the strongest support for my views as I cannot disagree with Guru Arjan Dev ji.
> ...


 
My understanding is that GuR JoTi does not mean the essence of GuRu.
We should have clear concept about GuR JoTi for proper understanding of GurBanee.

There is no difference in Parbrahm,Parmesar and SATi GuR.All refer to GuR GoTi only.

There is no difference in HARi NAAMu and RAM NAAMu in Gurbanee.Both NAAMu are a COMMON PAIR OF WORD refereing to GuR JoTi only.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2012)

ਪੰਨਾ 1409, ਸਤਰ 3
ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥
रामदासि गुरू जग तारन कउ गुर जोति अरजुन माहि धरी ॥४॥
Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||
ਭਟ ਮਥੁਰਾ 

This is the only place the phrase Gur Jot appears in SGGS.


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## Luckysingh (Apr 6, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji,
> 
> Could you explain, in a clear a fashion as possible, what Gur and GuRoo, means, as although we have discussed this many, many times, I do not believe we ever got to a conclusion, which is a shame, because I am genuinely interested in the differences
> 
> regards


 
Prakash Ji
I would appreciate if you could answer the above with some examples if possible. 
-You will probably ask where I stand at the moment with my view on the above so that you may understand what exactly I mean.-
Well, to me the words Gur and Guroo mean the same.

This thread is getting a little erratic at this stage. We seem too ,too busy trying to intepret words in the sense to clarify if they are formless referring or witha form... etc... 
I don't get it, why all this fuss? 
If you read the posts from page 5 or 6 to the current, you will say to yourself- what happened here ?

Are we trying to gain something different from each other by assigning different meanings for words that describe the Lord ?
I'm sorry, I don't get it, - to me, all I want is to Jap the name, read the bani, gain more wisdom and meditate on the naam.

TO me, the name, description, words, hindu incarnation names ALL mean the SAME. wether form or formless they ALL come acrosss as ONE. I see no difference with any form or formless description. 
GOD is within us all, pervades and permeates everywhere. There is God in me, in you, maybe more was in Krishan and Vishnu, maybe less in Ravan, whatever. We are NOT going to start measuring and defining a scale now.

I see NO difference in seeing the creator in a form or not. The whole universe and it's contents wether you class them good or bad, I do not. I see it ALL as ONE , both good, bad, dark, light, high, low, everything, atlantic or pacific, all the contents are part of ONE, regardless of function.

Maybe, I'm crazy to see everything as the same and  I can't understand why anyone else cannot.

I don't think that the bani will make me any wiser if I start seeing Gur and Guroo as different.

I hope Prakash Ji can correct me on this, and help me gain more wisdom and understanding by acknowledging a difference in Gur and Guroo or form and formless.

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 6, 2012)

Perhaps the following is of help that I had collected for my own notes,


> *ਗੁਰਾ**hy siqgurU!; **Gur oye;*
> 
> *gurmuiK           gurU vl mUMh kIiqAW, ijs mnu`K dw mUMh gurU vl hY, gurU dI rwhIN[gurU dI srn pY ky; gurU dy snmuK rihx vwlw mnu`K*
> 
> ...


Lot of the applications are contextual.  The context is always "one creator" and association with the same.  In teaching, in visualization, as a concept, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS: * The following also referenced in Mahan Kosh,

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> *ਸੰ. गुरू ਗੁਰੂ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗ੍ਰੀ (गृ) ਧਾਤੁ ਤੋਂ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਹਨ ਨਿਗਲਣਾ ਅਤੇ ਸਮਝਾਉਣਾ*, ਜੋ ਅਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਖਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਤਤ੍ਵਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਸਮਝਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ. *ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰ, ਗੁਰੁ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਇੱਕ ਹੀ ਅਰਥ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਏ ਹਨ, ਯਥਾ- "ਗੁਰੁ ਅਪਨੇ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫) " ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥* *". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫) "ਅਪਨਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਧਿਆਏ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫)।*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 6, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> ਪੰਨਾ 1409, ਸਤਰ 3
> ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥
> रामदासि गुरू जग तारन कउ गुर जोति अरजुन माहि धरी ॥४॥
> Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
> ...


 
The significance is of the concept of GuR JoTi being stated.
Let us look at the importance of this.Similarly we have the reference as Prabh JoTi too in Sukhmani Sahib.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 7, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ
> 
> What are your thoughts on the shabad I posted by Guru Arjan Dev ji on page 1082-3. That is the strongest support for my views as I cannot disagree with Guru Arjan Dev ji.
> ...


 
Very clearly the Sabad starts as
ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ 

अचुत पारब्रहम परमेसुर अंतरजामी ॥ 

Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī. 

The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. 




All the references given in this Sabad refer to Imperishable PARBRAHM and Omniscient PARMESAR only.
Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2012)

Prakash ji,
If you continue reading, Achut, Parbrahmn, Parmesar, Antaryami is described as the lifter of mount Govardhan, as Murli Manohar, as Narsingh, as Raam Chandra, Lakshmi's husband, etc with four arms carrying a conch, mace, chakram and lotus. Who could that be?

Lucky Singh ji 
I don't get it either. Perhaps for many God has become so abstract that any form ascribed to Him seems like backward and primitive thinking or something. Who knows?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 7, 2012)

Bhagat Singh Ji,
In all the attributes which have been dipicted as some form in Hindu philosophy,GuRu ji is telling that it is all thru GuR JoTi as Karta Purakhu. The significant is GuR JoTi in all attributed forms.Therefore Gurbanee directs us to connect with this ABNAASEE GuR JoTi thru its HARi NAAMu /RAM NAAMu.. This is the cRUX of Gurbanee understanding.

Consider a quote as
"Bhaee Re GuR Binu Giyanu Na Hoee,Pucho Brahma Narade Bed Biyase Koee" Sri Raag

It should be important to understand why GuRu ji is telling us to Ask Narad(Son of Brahma) and Bed Biyas who compiled Hidu Scriptures with grammar.What is that to be asked or known from them.?
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 7, 2012)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
What is real concept of VISHANu in Hindu philosophy very few Hindu brothers might be Knowing.The actual meaning of VISHANu is First ANNu of VISHWA or VISHANu is the first NUCLEUS of the UNIVERSE.That is why VISHANu is taken as the ULTIMATE GOD in Hindu Philosophy.And the Ten Avtars of VISHANu are considered for complete creation of the Universe. Further in Hindu Philosophy there are 1008 Attribute Names of VISHANu.All these attributes are virtually a sort of waves and or vibrations  taking part in the creation/sustenance and destuction of the Universe in cycle ways at different periods of time.
But the ULTIMATE of all attributes including creation of VISHANu is thru GuR JoTi (Prabhu) only.That is all Gurbanee is related to. When anyone worships GuR JoTi
All attributes are covered under GuR JoTi only.One need not be confused by the several attributes  So Person is exclusively connected to the real Creator of the Universe.
These are just few thoughts for your consideration and understand the significance of GuR JoTi as Abnaasee Prabhu only.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## mandemeet (Apr 7, 2012)

*Quote*
Time for some heavy-lifting and cognitive dissonance. Ready?

Some basic theology of Sikhism:
1. There is the Ultimate Reality, it is both Sargun (form) and Nirgun (formless) - by what name is this referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Brahmn (not Brahma) Parbrahmn, Parmesar, Bhagwan, Ishwar, Akal/Aad Purakh, Hari (Vishnu/Krishna Murare) and Ram Chandra. The latter two being the most prominent of all names of the Ultimate Reality. So the mythology that is revered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that of Vishnu, as he is considered the Ultimate Reality. Now since Vishnu is the Ultimate Reality. All of the below are actually referring to the Ultimate Reality, Vishnu.
Quote:
*Bhagat singh ji*
*There is no heavy lifting; you are fishing from the surface forgetting that on the surface only dead fish come.*
*What you think doesn’t become a final fact by referring those names prevailed during or before Bhagatas and the Gurus times. Let me answer your misconception about ultimate reality. In Rag Wadhanse; Guru Amar Das ji has made it clear to his Sikhs that we are not after Vishnu, as the Ultimate reality, because the one who is still in incarnating, how can he guide us? *
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ॥
Amriṯ nām saḏ mīṯẖā lāgā gur sabḏīsāḏ ā▫i▫ā. 
The Name Nectar is ever sweet unto me and by Guru's instruction I have enjoyed its relish. 
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ = ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਸਦ = ਸਦਾ। ਸਬਦੀ = ਸ਼ਬਦੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਸਾਦੁ = ਸੁਆਦ, ਆਨੰਦ।
ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਦ ਆਉਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਿਆ ਤੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਸਦਾ ਮਿੱਠਾ ਲੱਗਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਿਆ।

ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ 
Sacẖī baṇī sahj samāṇī har jī▫o man vasā▫i▫ā. ||1|| 
Through the True hymns of the Guru, man is merged into equipoise and the reverend Lord is enshrined in the mind. 
ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਹਰੀ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਸਹਜਿ = ਆਤਮਕ ਅਡੋਲਤਾ ਵਿਚ। ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ॥੧॥
ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਡੋਲਤਾ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਲੀਨਤਾ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰੋ ਲਿਆ ॥੧॥ 

ਹਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
Har kar kirpā saṯgurū milā▫i▫ā. 
Showing His mercy, God has made me meet the True Guru. 
ਕਰਿ = ਕਰ ਕੇ।
ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ, 

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Pūrai saṯgur har nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Through the perfect Satguru I have contemplated over the God's Name. Pause. 
ਸਤਗੁਰਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥
ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨਾ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥ 

*ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਗਾਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹ ਪਸਾਰਾ **॥* 
Barahmai beḏ baṇī pargāsī mā▫i▫ā moh pasārā. 
Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, however, he extended the love of mammon. 
ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ = ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਨੇ। ਪਸਾਰਾ = ਖਿਲਾਰਾ।
(ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਨੇ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਗਟ ਕੀਤੀ ਪਰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਖਿਲਾਰਾ ਹੀ ਖਿਲਾਰਿਆ।
ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਵਰਤੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ 
Mahāḏe▫o gi▫ānī varṯai gẖar āpṇaiṯāmas bahuṯ ahaŉkārā. ||2|| 
The seer Shiva remain absorbed in himself and he is engrossed in excessive wrath and pride. 
ਮਹਾਦੇਉ = ਸ਼ਿਵ। ਵਰਤੈ = ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਘਰਿ = ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ। ਤਾਮਸੁ = ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ॥੨॥
(ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਭੀ ਬੜਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਤੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ (ਦੱਸੀਦਾ) ਹੈ ॥੨॥
*ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ**॥* 
Kisan saḏā avṯārī rūḏẖā kiṯ lagṯarai sansārā. 
Vishnu is ever busy in reincarnating himself. So by whose association is the world to be emancipated? 
ਕਿਸਨੁ = ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂ। ਰੂਧਾ = ਰੁੱਝਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ = ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਚਰਨੀਂ ਲੱਗ ਕੇ?
ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਧਾਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਰੁੱਝਾ ਹੋਇਆ (ਦੱਸਿਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ) ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਦੱਸੋ) ਜਗਤ ਕਿਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨੀਂ ਲੱਗ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਾਗਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘੇ? 

*As per your words, Vishnu is Ultimate reality, right? The Guru says, he is cannot help in our pursuits because he hasn’t obtained anything and keeps coming and going; isn’t it enough to reject those myths you see through a new window?; why the Guru is rejecting the so called Ultimate reality( as per your views)?*
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹ ਗੁਬਾਰਾ ॥੩॥ 
Gurmukẖ gi▫ān raṯe jug anṯar cẖūkai moh gubārā. ||3|| 
The Guru-ward are imbued with gnosis in this age and they are rid of the darkness of worldly love. 
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ। ਗਿਆਨਿ = ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਚ, ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ (ਦੇ ਆਨੰਦ) ਵਿਚ। ਜੁਗ ਅੰਤਰਿ = ਜ਼ਮਾਨੇ ਵਿਚ, ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ। ਗੁਬਾਰਾ = ਘੁੱਪ ਹਨੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
ਜੇਹੜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ (ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਮਿਲੇ ਆਤਮ) ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਘੁੱਪ ਹਨੇਰਾ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੩॥ 
*ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ **॥* 
Saṯgur sevā ṯe nisṯārā gurmukẖ ṯarai sansārā. 
By the True Guru's service, emancipation, is attained, and through the Guru, the mortal crosses the world ocean. 
ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ = ਪਾਰ-ਉਤਾਰਾ।
ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਸੇਵਾ-ਭਗਤੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਰ-ਉਤਾਰਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਜਗਤ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਹੈ। 
*ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰਾ **॥**੪॥* 
Sācẖai nā▫e raṯe bairāgī pā▫in mokẖ ḏu▫ārā. ||4|| 
The world-renouncers are imbued with the True Name and they attain the door of salvation. 
ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ। ਬੈਰਾਗੀ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ। ਪਾਇਨਿ = ਪਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮੋਖ = ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ॥੪॥
ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਹੋਏ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਦਾ ਦਰਵਾਜ਼ਾ ਲੱਭ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੪॥ 
*Only way out is to get drenched in eternal Akalpurakh“through Satiguru” not Vishnu or Ram Chandra.*

ਏਕੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤੈਸਭ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ॥
Ėko sacẖ varṯai sabẖ anṯar sabẖnākare parṯipālā. 
The unique True Lord is contained within all and He cherishes everyone. 
ਸਚੁ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ = ਪਾਲਣਾ।
ਸਾਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੀ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਾਲਣਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।
*ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੀਵਾਨੁ ਦਇਆਲਾ **॥**੫॥੫॥* 
Nānak ikas bin mai avar na jāṇāsabẖnā ḏīvān ḏa▫i▫ālā. ||5||5|| 
Nanak, without the one God, I know not another. He is the merciful master of all. 
ਦੀਵਾਨੁ = ਆਸਰਾ, ਹਾਕਮ ਜਿਸ ਪਾਸ ਫ਼ਰਿਆਦ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ। ਨ ਜਾਣਾ = ਮੈਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦਾ, ਨ ਜਾਣਾਂ ॥੫॥੫॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਇੱਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਨੂੰ (ਉਸ ਵਰਗਾ) ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦਾ, ਉਹੀ ਦਇਆ ਦਾ ਘਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ-ਪਰਨਾ ਹੈ ॥੫
Very carefully note down this phrase” *ਇਕਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ *“ except the Support of all, Akalpurakh.
Regards
mandemeet


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## mandemeet (Apr 7, 2012)

Quote
From this Ultimate Reality arises the creator - Brahma, sustainer - also called Vishnu and destroyer - Mahadev. 
Page 908, Line 1
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस इक मूरति आपे करता कारी ॥१२॥
Barahmā bisan mahes ik mūraṯ āpe karṯā kārī. ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
When the Ultimate Reality manifests, it does so as three Gunas/qualities -Rajas, Sattva and Tamas. Thus these three aspects of the Ultimate Reality are under the influence of these Gunas/qualities.



*In above verse, it is stated that it is not brahma, Vishnu and shiva that execute their different assignments but the Creator Himself does that; note down the word “AAPe and Kaari”; Aape is related with Karta (Creator) not with Vishnu or Shiva. He is form of all these assignments, means onlt He does all which is said to be done by Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Here the Guru does not believe in this concept of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, rather he is rejecting it. All is created by the Creator, but the entire created ones cannot become the Creator in totality. When “one Murat” is said in context of them, their existence is voided. You are trying to prove that these individuals are indeed the Creator whom Bhagatas and the Gurus worshiped. *
Quote
ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
अचुत पारब्रहम परमेसुर अंतरजामी ॥
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī.
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
मधुसूदन दामोदर सुआमी ॥
Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su▫āmī.
Madhusudan - Krishna
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
रिखीकेस गोवरधन धारी मुरली मनोहर हरि रंगा ॥१॥
Rikẖīkes *govarḏẖan ḏẖārī* *murlī manohar* har rangā. ||1||
(Krishna lifts Govardhan in his mythology. He is the Murli Manohar, the flute player.)
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
मोहन माधव क्रिस्न मुरारे ॥
Mohan māḏẖav krisan murāre.
Mohan (Krishna), Madhav (Krishna), Krishna Murare
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
जगदीसुर हरि जीउ असुर संघारे ॥
Jagḏīsur har jī▫o asur sangẖāre.
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
जगजीवन अबिनासी ठाकुर घट घट वासी है संगा ॥२॥
Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
धरणीधर ईस नरसिंघ नाराइण ॥
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā▫iṇ.
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
दाड़ा अग्रे प्रिथमि धराइण ॥
Ḏāṛā agre paritham ḏẖarā▫iṇ.
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
बावन रूपु कीआ तुधु करते सभ ही सेती है चंगा ॥३॥
Bāvan rūp kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ karṯe sabẖ hī seṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi▫ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
सहस नेत्र मूरति है सहसा इकु दाता सभ है मंगा ॥४॥
Sahas neṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
भगति वछलु अनाथह नाथे ॥
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthe.
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
गोपी नाथु सगल है साथे ॥
Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthe.
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
बासुदेव निरंजन दाते बरनि न साकउ गुण अंगा ॥५॥
Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. ||5||
O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
मुकंद मनोहर लखमी नाराइण ॥
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ.
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
द्रोपती लजा निवारि उधारण ॥
Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.
Savior of Dropadi's honor. (Krishna)

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
कमलाकंत करहि कंतूहल अनद बिनोदी निहसंगा ॥६॥
Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
अमोघ दरसन आजूनी स्मभउ ॥
Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa▫o.
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; *He is not born, He is self-existent.*
Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?
VISHNU IS AN INCARNATING FIGURE WELL DEFINED BY THIRD NANAK IN ABOVE GIVEN QUOTE, BUT YOU ARE GUESSING (who knows?, No, it is well known)

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
अकाल मूरति जिसु कदे नाही खउ ॥
Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏe nāhī kẖa▫o.
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
अबिनासी अबिगत अगोचर सभु किछु तुझ ही है लगा ॥७॥
Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7|| Page 1082
( I have removed some part of the shabda as it is getting long, there is another Shabda by sri Guru Arjun Dev ji on 896 to 897 in which the Guru calls him with many names and in the end he also says 
ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥ 
Mihar ḏa▫i▫ā kar karnaihār. Bẖagaṯ banḏagī ḏėh sirjaṇhār. Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45|| 
. 
*Basically, Allahu, The Transcendent the Creator and the Merciful is only the same. I knew you would come up with these names; it was already told you that all deeds are credited to All Pervading Akalpurakh; no, you want to attach the Creator to those individuals; it is called surface fishing; if we agree with you for a moment; then “a bait used for the fish”is also called the Creator; should we say the Guru is worshiping “a bait”? do you understand what I am referring to? Let me give you quote:*
*On 23*
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਛੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਾਲੁ ॥ 
Āpe mācẖẖī macẖẖulī āpe pāṇī jāl. 
He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. 
ਮਾਛੀ = ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਫੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਫੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੱਛੀ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਣੀ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਮੱਛੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ) ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਲ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਮੱਛੀ ਫੜੀਦੀ ਹੈ)।
ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲੁ ॥੨॥ 
Āpe jāl maṇkaṛā āpe anḏar lāl. ||2|| 
He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within. 
ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ = ਜਾਲ ਦਾ ਮਣਕਾ {ਲੋਹੇ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੇ ਮਣਕੇ ਜੋ ਜਾਲ ਨੂੰ ਭਾਰਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਹੇਠਲੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਲਾਏ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤਾਕਿ ਜਾਲ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਡੁਬਿਆ ਰਹੇ}। ਲਾਲੁ = ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਬੋਟੀ (ਮੱਛੀ ਨੂੰ ਫਸਾਣ ਲਈ)।੨।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਜਾਲ ਦੇ ਮਣਕੇ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਜਾਲ ਵਿਚ ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਬੋਟੀ ਹੈ (ਜੋ ਮੱਛੀ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਲ ਵੱਲ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਦੀ ਹੈ) ॥੨॥ 
ਆਪੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿਰੰਗੁਲਾ ਸਖੀਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਲਾਲੁ ॥
Āpe baho biḏẖ rangulā sakẖī▫e merālāl. 
My maid! my Beloved is in every way playful. 
ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ = ਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ। ਰੰਗੁਲਾ = ਚੋਜ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਲਾਲੁ = ਪਿਆਰਾ।
ਹੇ ਸਹੇਲੀਏ! ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਚੋਜ ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ
*Bhagats Singh ji, it is vast concept, many people have problem to understanding it and they run literally after Name - references and start judging the Gurus and Bhagatas. When the Guru rejects a Devta compared to Gurmukh, when the Guru rejects ability of Vishnu as savior, why a Sikh should continue stressing the idea that goes against the Gurus and Bhagatas? In the above quote Akalpurakh is also described as “Jaal Mankra and Lal” should we say the Creator is bait in totality or should take it as “JETA KITA TETA NAON. You can think better than this. People were loaded with so many myths already, why the Guru would do the same thing? Actually they lifted that load off the shoulders of the Sikhs and you are trying to put it back on them just because you cannot understand reason of these references.*
quote 
“ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. 

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? *Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.*

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?

ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.

*ਸੰਖ* *ਚਕ੍ਰ**ਗਦਾ* *ਪਦਮ* ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power (ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ - conch, chakram, mace and lotus - icons of Vishnu) , You deceived Baliraja (Ram Chandra decieves bali in order to bring Sugreve to power); who can know You?

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||
*Bhatas bani is simply a eulogy of the Gurus and Akalpurakh, it is not used to verify any fact; if a mother says, “my son is a king” in love, does her son in fact becomes a king or does her saying becomes a fact? Or, it is just a mother’s way of praising her son. Who remain on surface, they may confuse and think how her son can be a king, but those who understand it and deem it as a eulogy, they don’t get confused and don’t confuse others.*
Quote
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 0in" class=yiv1321664472MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1pt inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1pt inset; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: 1pt inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1pt inset; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">Originally Posted by *Gyani ji* 
_Bhagat kabir Ji so clearly and transparently declares that all the public cry our..Raam Raam raam....BUT dear friends..there is a very clear and HUGE difference between what the "public" cry out Raam Raam and MY RAAM....One Raam is a Human..a person a... a Dramabaaz...an ACTOR...the OTHER Raam is the All Pervading CREATOR._
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
FALSE
This is simply a misunderstanding of Bhagat Kabir's shabad. Raam was never believed to be human by any of the Bhagats or Gurus. Especially in light of the shabads above. Let me remind in the words of 5th Master: _"You are the Ram Chandra with no form or feature. Adorned in flowers and wielding the chakram, your form is incomparably beautiful."_ Raam Chandra is the Divine. He is Akal Purakh.
*Indeed, but you are playing with the words; go back and read what you wrote; you are boxing Akalpurakh in Ram Chandra, a son of Dasrath. In Gurbani, that Ram is the one who is beyond birth; he never takes birth but manifests in his creation and it is his manifest that is called :him: ; Ram who cries, Krishna who forcibly takes other person’s woman and Vishnu who keeps incarnating are not worshiped by the Gurus and Bhagatas. Why these references are given; it is very simple thing; Bhagtas and the Gurus’ followers came from two religions: Hinduism and Islam; therefore, Bhagtas and the Gurus address their beliefs, and the names they used to get liberation or help to guide them toward All Pervading Akalpurakh; even Allah and Khudai words are used by Bhagatas and the Gurus to address the same RAM; they tell them that there is only one DOER and that is Akalpurakh who is beyond birth and death and permeates in all and only to him you should stick to instead of all those figures who themselves failed to know his infinity or whom you think resides up in the sky. It was hard to break those followers of Hinduism or Islam if they wouldn’t refer to them to introduce them to “All Pervading Akalpurakh, the Ultimate reality. Using words like “kete” for Ram, Brahma obviously indicates that they were not revered. *


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## mandemeet (Apr 7, 2012)

*Quote*
*
*Let's look a this shabad and weed out of the ignorance propagated by it's popular mistranslation.
*Actually you also do the same, I shall point out at the end:

*ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan (chant/repeat) mėh (inside) bẖeḏ (difference) hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabir says there is a difference in how you chant "Ram", and this is to be considered.

*Look at the word “Bhed” it is not difference but a secret. What is that the one idea to keep in the mind? It is explained in slok number 191.
*
ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī (that very) rām sabẖai (everyone) kahėh so▫ī (that very) ka▫uṯakhār (miracle workers). ||190||

The same Ram is chanted by everyone (Saints) and the same Ram is chanted by miracle workers, those who (want to) obtain the various supernatural powers, ridhiyan sidhiyan.
||190||
Meaning: The one who chanted to obtain supernatural powers, was lost in the many powers, was engrossed in Maya. The one who chanted with true faith and not for some reward was merged in the One and liberated. 
||191||
*That is no word used for ridhya sidhya, it is about those who stage dramas about Ram Chandra and sing his songs.* 
*So you think you are interpreting right? Where is a reference of Ridhya sidhyan in the above line? Please tell me, if it is not there, then why are you assuming it? Well, someone explained you, right? You are wrong and who tells so you is also wrong, because there were a few sects who were into such things like sidhya nidhya; otherwise, many people were worshiping Ram Chandra, the son of Dasrath by saying “Jai Ram Ki” That is what Bhagat Kabir ji refers to.*


Essence: 
The idea of chanting and training the mind to obtain supernatural pwoers was/is very prevalent in India. (Whether or not it is possible) Kabir says, those who chant to obtain some goal of receiving supernatural powers, are lost in the world, in the "many", in the powers and their displays. *There is a difference in how you chant and that is in the intention*. The intentions are important. Are you chanting to gain something out of it or chanting with pure devotion?
*Bhagat singh ji, you are again wrong in interpreting the above sloka; before I address that let me remind you in what Bhagat really believes in; no Guru or Bhagat leads the follower to utter Name of Akalpurakh to obtain ridhya or sidhya; it is all about liberation from Maya. When one gets liberation, as per them, all these so called ridhya sidhya are obtained just as “lakh khushya patshayeen je Satiguru nadr kere” Below look to whom Bhagat Kabir leads to:*
340
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖeṯahu cẖiṯkārī. 
Leave the painting and remember the painter. 
ਤਜਿ = ਛੱਡ ਕੇ। ਚੇਤਹੁ = ਚੇਤੇ ਰੱਖੋ, ਯਾਦ ਕਰੋ। ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰਕਾਰ, ਤਸਵੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ।
(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਇਸ ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦੇ ਮੋਹ) ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਚੇਤੇ ਰੱਖ; 
ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ॥
Cẖiṯar bacẖiṯar ihai avjẖerā. 
This wonderous painting is now, the bone of contention. 
ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ = {ਸੰ: ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ} ਰੰਗਾ-ਰੰਗ ਦੀ, ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁੰਦਰ, ਹੈਰਾਨ ਕਰ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲੀ, ਮੋਹ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੀ। ਅਵਝੇਰਾ = ਝੰਬੇਲਾ।
(ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਵੱਡਾ) ਝੰਬੇਲਾ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਰੂਪ) ਤਸਵੀਰ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਮੋਹ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ। 
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ 
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖiṯ rākẖ cẖiṯerā. ||12|| 
Dismiss picture and keep thy mind on the Painter. 
ਚਿਤੇਰਾ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ ॥੧੨॥
(ਸੋ, ਇਸ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਣ ਲਈ) ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦਾ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ) ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੋ ਰੱਖ ॥੧੨॥ 
*Obviously Kabir is not a believer of Ram Chandra of Dasrath as you advocate in your posts (by calling him formless and misinterpreting Guru Arjun Dev ji’s Vaak. Now read the same sloka keeping in your mind what Kabir believes in:*
ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho (chant/repeat) kahibe (in how you chant) māhi (inside) bibek (bichar).

Kabir says, chant "Ramay Ram" but keep in mind that

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One merged (ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ - verb) in the many, and one merged in the one.
*Kabir is talking about Ram; therefore, ”Ek” stands for Ram and “Anek” for bodies and the second “Ek” for Ram again and the third Ek for one body. There is” one Ram” who permeates in all (bodies) but the other Ram was only in one body . If you don’t want to take“ek” as a body, you can still think that that Ram (son of Dasrath) merged in One All Pervading Akalpurakh. Difference is made; it is not how Ram is uttered but who is brought in the mind while uttering the word Ram. Gyani Jarnail Singh was totally right. If it was about “how to utter Ram”, Kabir would have given a detail about that too. Do you remember Guru Amar Das’s vaak” Ram Ram sabh ko kahai, kayea Ram n hoye?” in that vak how to utter Ram is explained but not in above sloka of Kabir. Before you rush to any judgment about Gurbani, you must also look at the fact toward whom Gurbani leads the followers which it is well defined in it; it is Imperishable Akalpurakh/Prabh/Hari/Naam/ the Creator.” Tere kete namma” clearly states that no name can express the Creator completely. Therefore, no one name, sometime bore by someone in the past, can express Infinity of Akalpurakh. You can keep giving such misinterpreted and incorrect translations without understanding the depth of the contexts, but you cannot ignore the truth about the love of sikhi toward All Pervading Akalpurakh. Your myth window actually misleading; that is all. Remember your statement "*Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?*? Obviously you dont acknowledge what the Guru says about Vishnu. What a revelation!*
*Regards*
*mandemeet*


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## mandemeet (Apr 7, 2012)

*Quote*

Let's look a this shabad and weed out of the ignorance propagated by it's popular mistranslation.
*Actually you also do the same, I shall point out at the end:*

ਕਬੀਰਰਾਮਕਹਨਮਹਿਭੇਦੁਹੈਤਾਮਹਿਏਕੁਬਿਚਾਰੁ॥
कबीररामकहनमहिभेदुहैतामहिएकुबिचारु॥
Kabīr rām kahan (chant/repeat) mėh (inside) bẖeḏ (difference) hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabir says there is a difference in how you chant "Ram", and this is to be considered.

*Look at the word “Bhed” it is not difference but a secret. What is that the one idea to keep in the mind? It is explained in slok number 191.*

ਸੋਈਰਾਮੁਸਭੈਕਹਹਿਸੋਈਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ॥੧੯੦॥
सोईरामुसभैकहहिसोईकउतकहार॥१९०॥
So▫ī (that very) rām sabẖai (everyone) kahėh so▫ī (that very) ka▫uṯakhār (miracle workers). ||190||

The same Ram is chanted by everyone (Saints) and the same Ram is chanted by miracle workers, those who (want to) obtain the various supernatural powers, ridhiyan sidhiyan.
||190||
Meaning: The one who chanted to obtain supernatural powers, was lost in the many powers, was engrossed in Maya. The one who chanted with true faith and not for some reward was merged in the One and liberated. 
||191||
*That is no word used for ridhya sidhya, it is about those who stage dramas about Ram Chandra and sing his songs.*
*So you think you are interpreting right? Where is a reference of Ridhya sidhyan in the above line? Please tell me, if it is not there, then why are you assuming it? Well, someone explained you, right? You are wrong and who tells so you is also wrong, because there were a few sects who were into such things like sidhya nidhya; otherwise, many people were worshiping Ram Chandra, the son of Dasrath by saying “Jai Ram Ki” That is what Bhagat Kabir ji refers to.*


Essence: 
The idea of chanting and training the mind to obtain supernatural pwoers was/is very prevalent in India. (Whether or not it is possible) Kabir says, those who chant to obtain some goal of receiving supernatural powers, are lost in the world, in the "many", in the powers and their displays. *There is a difference in how you chant and that is in the intention*. The intentions are important. Are you chanting to gain something out of it or chanting with pure devotion?
*Bhagat singh ji, you are again wrong in interpreting the above sloka; before I address that let me remind you in what Bhagat really believes in; no Guru or Bhagat leads the follower to utter Name of Akalpurakh to obtain ridhya or sidhya; it is all about liberation from Maya. When one gets liberation, as per them, all these so called ridhya sidhya are obtained just as “lakh khushya patshayeen je Satiguru nadr kere” Below look to whom Bhagat Kabir leads to:*
340
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖeṯahu cẖiṯkārī. 
Leave the painting and remember the painter. 
ਤਜਿ = ਛੱਡਕੇ।ਚੇਤਹੁ = ਚੇਤੇਰੱਖੋ, ਯਾਦਕਰੋ।ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰਕਾਰ, ਤਸਵੀਰਨੂੰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲਾ।
(ਹੇਭਾਈ!) ਇਸਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦੇਮੋਹ) ਨੂੰਛੱਡਕੇਤਸਵੀਰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲੇਨੂੰਚੇਤੇਰੱਖ; 
ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ॥
Cẖiṯar bacẖiṯar ihai avjẖerā. 
This wonderous painting is now, the bone of contention. 
ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ = {ਸੰ: ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ} ਰੰਗਾ-ਰੰਗਦੀ, ਬਹੁਤਸੁੰਦਰ, ਹੈਰਾਨਕਰਦੇਣਵਾਲੀ, ਮੋਹਲੈਣਵਾਲੀ।ਅਵਝੇਰਾ = ਝੰਬੇਲਾ।
(ਕਿਉਂਕਿਵੱਡਾ) ਝੰਬੇਲਾਇਹਹੈਕਿਇਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਰੂਪ) ਤਸਵੀਰਮਨਨੂੰਮੋਹਲੈਣਵਾਲੀਹੈ। 
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ 
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖiṯ rākẖ cẖiṯerā. ||12|| 
Dismiss picture and keep thy mind on the Painter. 
ਚਿਤੇਰਾ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲਾ॥੧੨॥
(ਸੋ, ਇਸਮੋਹਤੋਂਬਚਣਲਈ) ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦਾਖ਼ਿਆਲ) ਛੱਡਕੇਤਸਵੀਰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲੇਵਿਚਆਪਣੇਚਿੱਤਨੂੰਪ੍ਰੋਰੱਖ॥੧੨॥ 
*Obviously Kabir is not a believer of Ram Chandra of Dasrath as you advocate in your posts (by calling him formless and misinterpreting Guru Arjun Dev ji’s Vaak. Now read the same sloka keeping in your mind what Kabir believes in:*
ਕਬੀਰਰਾਮੈਰਾਮਕਹੁਕਹਿਬੇਮਾਹਿਬਿਬੇਕ॥
कबीररामैरामकहुकहिबेमाहिबिबेक॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho (chant/repeat) kahibe (in how you chant) māhi (inside) bibek (bichar).

Kabir says, chant "Ramay Ram" but keep in mind that

ਏਕੁਅਨੇਕਹਿਮਿਲਿਗਇਆਏਕਸਮਾਨਾਏਕ॥੧੯੧॥
एकुअनेकहिमिलिगइआएकसमानाएक॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One merged (ਮਿਲਿਗਇਆ - verb) in the many, and one merged in the one.
*Kabir is talking about Ram; therefore, ”Ek” stands for Ram and “Anek” for bodies and the second “Ek” for Ram again and the third Ek for one body. There is” one Ram” who permeates in all (bodies) but the other Ram was only in one body . If you don’t want to take“ek” as a body, you can still think that that Ram (son of Dasrath) merged in One All Pervading Akalpurakh. Difference is made; it is not how Ram is uttered but who is brought in the mind while uttering the word Ram. Gyani Jarnail Singh was totally right. If it was about “how to utter Ram”, Kabir would have given a detail about that too. Do you remember Guru Amar Das’s vaak” Ram Ram sabh ko kahai, kayea Ram n hoye?” in that vak how to utter Ram is explained but not in above sloka of Kabir. Before you rush to any judgment about Gurbani, you must also look at the fact toward whom Gurbani leads the followers which it is well defined in it; it is Imperishable Akalpurakh/Prabh/Hari/Naam/ the Creator.” Tere kete namma” clearly states that no name can express the Creator completely. Therefore, no one name, sometime bore by someone in the past, can express Infinity of Akalpurakh. You can keep giving such misinterpreted and incorrect translations without understanding the depth of the contexts, but you cannot ignore the truth about the love of sikhi toward All Pervading Akalpurakh. Your myth window actually misleading; that is all. Remember your statement "*Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?*? Obviously you dont acknowledge what the Guru says about Vishnu. What a revelation!*
*Regards*
*mandemeet*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2012)

*There is no heavy lifting; you are fishing from the surface forgetting that on the surface only dead fish come............end quote:
.
How true..and GURU Ji tells us the exact same thing...Baggleh daddahn khaveh....and ....HANS DIVE DEEP and feed on PEARLS.
This is a Metaphor because in nature both birds eat the same stuff as "pearls" are uneatable..BUT the Meaning behind the Gurbani Tuk is what madameet Ji is explaining....IF we float on the surface only..we will get only dead fish...Gurbani is a DEEP OCEAN..and its pleasures can be derived only via "scuba" diving at the very least..and submarine diving for more !!
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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2012)

My dad taught me one golden rule...GURU JI always speaks in the ...shortest..straightest way....so the moment someone opens his mouth/begins writing....and begins to ZIG ZAG..touching base at hardwaar..Benaras..and then back to Amrtisar....the moment he begins touching on the Krishans of mathra and the Raams of dasrath...and Kanshi etc tec..Forget him. Hes NOT telling about GURBANI..but leading you on a garden path or walk in the park...He is NOT telling about the DIRECT Message of the GURU..but convulating circumventing gallivanting around...confusing..bypassing the GURU....


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## Admin (Apr 8, 2012)

*Admin Note: This thread is now closed. References  taken from dramatized Mythology dramas and from Wikipedia can be  described as a worst case scenario to support your arguments. Please  refrain from such examples. If you have something interesting to add to  this topic, please start a new topic while referencing link to this  topic. 

Thank you! 
    Gurfateh!
Aman Singh*


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