# 'Begging' In Gurbani



## Ishna (Nov 9, 2013)

So, in a thread about prayer, Admin ji, Lucky ji and I took a short detour about 'begging'. The detour started here (for the _really_ curious SPNers :grinningkaur.

Anyway, long story short, I said:


			
				Ishna said:
			
		

> The kind of begging I'm talking about isn't physical begging from people or as an outward display but a silent begging in your heart and mind, a yearning, a wishing, to be closer to Guruji. That's also the impression I get from Gurbani.


 
And Admin ji said:


			
				spnadmin ji said:
			
		

> I see both types of begging as the same thing. Why beg for something you already have? In a sense it is a confession that one has forgotten what one has already received. That makes ardas for me in part a matter of finding not begging. Finding = simran = remembering what is already there.


 
Admin ji also suggested that Vedic/Christian overtones in the translation might be skewing the impression in English. Here's an example where the idea of begging makes an appearance:

From Ang 321
ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਸਭੇ ਵਸਤੂ ਕਉੜੀਆ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਉ ਮਿਠਾ ॥
Sabẖe vasṯū ka▫uṛī▫ā sacẖe nā▫o miṯẖā.
All material things are bitter; the True Name alone is sweet.
ਸਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਜਨਾਂ ਚਖਿ ਸਾਧੀ ਡਿਠਾ ॥
Sāḏ ā▫i▫ā ṯin har janāŉ cẖakẖ sāḏẖī diṯẖā.
Those humble servants of the Lord who taste it, come to savor its flavor.
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਵੁਠਾ ॥
Pārbarahm jis likẖi▫ā man ṯisai vuṯẖā.
It comes to dwell within the mind of those who are so pre-destined by the Supreme Lord God.
ਇਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਦੁਯਾ ਕੁਠਾ ॥
Ik niranjan rav rahi▫ā bẖā▫o ḏuyā kuṯẖā.
The One Immaculate Lord is pervading everywhere; He destroys the love of duality.
*ਹਰਿ **ਨਾਨਕੁ **ਮੰਗੈ **ਜੋੜਿ **ਕਰ **ਪ੍ਰਭੁ **ਦੇਵੈ **ਤੁਠਾ **॥੧੩॥*
*Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||*
*Nanak begs for the Lord's Name, with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||*



So, what does 'mangai' in the above mean? Does it mean 'to beg' in the literal sense of begging, and is this a thought pattern we should be encouraging in our minds?

Please Lucky ji, Admin ji, feel free to add if you think I've left anything out.

Many thanks.


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## kggr (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: "Begging" in Gurbani*

I think Guru Nanak ji meant with that submitting to Gods will.


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## spnadmin (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: "Begging" in Gurbani*

ishna ji

You raise an important question. There is a lot to consider in the answer. Take a look at three translations of the same couplet in Guru Granth Sahib, from Ang 107

translation of *Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa*


ਜਾਚਿਕੁ ਜਾਚੈ ਸਾਧ ਰਵਾਲਾ ॥
Jācẖik jācẖai sāḏẖ ravālā.
I am a beggar, begging for the dust of the feet of the Holy.

ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੩੮॥੪੫॥
Ḏėh ḏān Nānak jan māgai saḏā saḏā har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī jī▫o. ||4||38||45||
Servant Nanak begs for this gift: let me meditate on the Lord, forever and ever. ||4||38||45|


translation of *Bhai Manmohan Singh*


ਜਾਚਿਕੁ ਜਾਚੈ ਸਾਧ ਰਵਾਲਾ ॥
Jācẖik jācẖai sāḏẖ ravālā.
The beggar asks for the dust of the feet of the saints.

ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੩੮॥੪੫॥
Ḏėh ḏān Nānak jan māgai saḏā saḏā har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī jī▫o. ||4||38||45||
Serf Nanak, prays Thee, O Lord! for the grant of this gift, for ever and aye he may continue meditating on Thee. 


Fascinating is that *Dr. Gurbachan Singh Talib *goes out of his way to avoid any mention of the word "beg."  He translates the couplet (page 220 of his English translation


_This mendicant for dust of the feet of the holy makes prayer.
Nanak! They servant thus supplicates. On Thee may I ever meditate!_

Though a mendicant begs, the word carries a different connotation from the word 'beggar." 


One thing I notice is that Guruji makes a deliberate choice of "Jachai" for "beg" when referring to the literal "beggar" or "jachik" and by contrast uses "magai" when speaking directly to Waheguru


I don't think the meaning of "magai" can be got at by literal versus contextual comparisons and contrasts. Even a literal translation might lead to more than one meaning for "magai" "beg."  Perhaps the answer comes when one takes in the main idea of the shabad as viewed by a particular translator, the philosophy each translator injects into the translation. 

Right now I am unable to do that. However a few more comparisons might make the reasons behind the translations clearer.


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## spnadmin (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: "Begging" in Gurbani*

For the quotation you posted from Ang 321
*

Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa*

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੰਗੈ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਤੁਠਾ ॥੧੩॥
Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
Nanak begs for the Lord's Name, with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||

*Bhai Manmohan Singh

*ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੰਗੈ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਤੁਠਾ ॥੧੩॥
Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
With folded hands Nanak asks for God's Name, which by His pleasure the Lord has
granted unto him. 

*Dr. Gurbachan Singh Talib *(page 670, English translation)

_Nanak with folded hands seeks devotion to the Lord. Thus shall He grant, should He be so pleased._


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 11, 2013)

It is slightly difficult to explain the meaning of  words of Punjabi. There can be more than one meaning and in that case context shall decide the precise meaning.
It has been explained by spnadmin in her posts as  above.

The verb form of the word is derived from 'Mangana'. Its literal meaning is to ask for.
'Mangai' is the word derived from 'Mangana'. 

I sum up the nearest equivalents of Mangai as follows:

1. To ask for 
2. to pray for -context to decide the meaning or usage.
3. to make a demand for something - context to decide.[Income Tax officer demanded the Tax 
4. to call for something- context to decide the usage
5. to make a request -context to decide the usage.
6. to beg for something

In the various Tuks given by spnadmin, 'begs for' should fit in. There is difference of shades only and context shall always decide the meaning.

Hope it would be useful.


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## Ishna (Nov 11, 2013)

Ask for.. pray for... beg for.. they conveying the same sentiment.

The only translation which is different is the one by Dr Talib, who still 'seeks' for something to be 'granted' to him.

Nevertheless it is asking for that which we don't yet have.  Hanji?


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 11, 2013)

> Ishna ji
> So, what does 'mangai' in the above mean? Does it mean 'to beg' in the  literal sense of begging, and is this a thought pattern we should be  encouraging in our minds?



ya mangai means "to beg","to ask" .  acc to my understanding of Gurmat its should be encouraged . 

"_Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai r_i ".


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

Now here is the problem that rises from this for me, directed to anyone and everyone. If begging is asking for something we do not have and Guru Nanak begs, as in




> Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
> Nanak begs for the Lord's Name", with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||
> does this raise questions?



Does it mean that Guru Nanak is begging because he has not yet enshrined the Naam within, and thus asks for it because he needs it?

Does it also mean that it is OK to ask for a silver Mercedes Benz or a male grandchild in ardas?

This is perplexing and is the reason why I asked about begging in the other thread. If we are settled in Hukam, why then beg. We have what we need. There has to be a way to understand whether "begging" always rises from an unmet need, or a seeking for something that is missing. Is it OK to beg for some things and not others? Does it make sense for Guru Nanak to beg as long as he begs for Naam?

I raised a similar question in SOTW regarding the word "cursed."


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> ya mangai means "to beg","to ask" .  acc to my understanding of Gurmat its should be encouraged .
> 
> "_*Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai r*_*i* ".



Harmanprret singh ji

We need the entire shabad to understand your point - i.e., how Gurmat encourages begging. I am unable to locate the tuk given in transliteration, without an Ang number.

Thank you

Never mind I found it. But I do not see anything about begging. Ang 400


ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਹੋਇ ਦਾਸਰੀ ਏਹੁ ਅਚਾਰਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਰੀ ॥
Sanṯā kī ho▫e ḏāsrī ehu acẖārā sikẖ rī.
Become the servant of the Saints, and learn this way of life.

ਸਗਲ ਗੁਣਾ ਗੁਣ ਊਤਮੋ ਭਰਤਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਪਿਖੁ ਰੀ ॥੧॥
Sagal guṇā guṇ ūṯmo bẖarṯā ḏūr na pikẖ rī. ||1||
Of all virtues, the most sublime virtue is to see your Husband Lord near at hand. ||1||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਮਜੀਠੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੀ ॥
Ih man sunḏar āpṇā har nām majīṯẖai rang rī.
So, dye this mind of yours with the color of the Lord's Love.

ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਚਾਤੁਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੁ ਗੁਪਾਲਹਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ŧi▫āg si▫āṇap cẖāṯurī ṯūŉ jāṇ gupālėh sang rī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Renounce cleverness and cunning, and know that the Sustainer of the world is with you. ||1||Pause||

ਭਰਤਾ ਕਹੈ ਸੁ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਏਹੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇ ਰੀ ॥
Bẖarṯā kahai so mānī▫ai ehu sīgār baṇā▫e rī.
Whatever your Husband Lord says, accept that, and make it your decoration.

ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਵਿਸਾਰੀਐ ਏਹੁ ਤੰਬੋਲਾ ਖਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੨॥
Ḏūjā bẖā▫o visārī▫ai ehu ṯambolā kẖā▫e rī. ||2||
Forget the love of duality, and chew upon this betel leaf. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੀਪਕੋ ਇਹ ਸਤ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਬਿਛਾਇ ਰੀ ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ kar ḏīpko ih saṯ kī sej bicẖẖā▫e rī.
Make the Word of the Guru's Shabad your lamp, and let your bed be Truth.

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਭੇਟੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੩॥
*Āṯẖ pahar kar joṛ rahu ṯa▫o bẖetai har rā▫e rī. ||3||*
Twenty-four hours a day, stand with your palms pressed together, and the Lord, your King, shall meet you. ||3||

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਚਜੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਈ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਿ ਰੀ ॥
Ŧis hī cẖaj sīgār sabẖ sā▫ī rūp apār rī.
She alone is cultured and embellished, and she alone is of incomparable beauty.

ਸਾਈ ਸਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਭਾਣੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ਰੀ ॥੪॥੧੬॥੧੧੮॥
Sā▫ī sohagaṇ nānkā jo bẖāṇī karṯār rī. ||4||16||118||
She alone is the happy soul-bride, O Nanak, who is pleasing to the Creator Lord. ||4||16||118||


Please explain because you may be seeing something that I am missing, and that makes a difference in solving this puzzle.


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## Ishna (Nov 11, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> Now here is the problem that rises from this for me, directed to anyone and everyone. If begging is asking for something we do not have and Guru Nanak begs, as in
> 
> Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
> Nanak begs for the Lord's Name", with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||
> ...


 
I think the question of what we're asking for has been dealt with in other areas of Gurbani, like the passage I quoted previously on ang 958

ਮਃ ੫ ॥

Mėhlā 5. 

Fifth Mehl: 


ਵਿਣੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਿ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾ ਕੈ ਦੁਖ ॥

viṇ ṯuḏẖ hor jė mangṇā sir ḏukẖā kai ḏukẖ. 

To ask for any other than You, Lord, is the most miserable of miseries. 


ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ ॥

Ḏėh nām sanṯokẖī▫ā uṯrai man kī bẖukẖ. 

Please bless me with Your Name, and make me content; may the hunger of my mind be satisfied. 


ਗੁਰਿ ਵਣੁ ਤਿਣੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਤਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਮਨੁਖ ॥੨॥

Gur vaṇ ṯiṇ hari▫ā kīṯi▫ā Nānak ki▫ā manukẖ. ||2|| 

The Guru has made the woods and meadows green again. O Nanak, is it any wonder that He blesses human beings as well? ||2|| 
​The thing being asked for is Darshan, the removal of the sense of separation, to always be in simran. We are already united, we just have to realise it, and *this* is the realisation we seek. IMHO.

The question then becomes, "to whom are we asking/begging/imploring". Imploring - perhaps that's a better word than 'begging'.



> If we are settled in Hukam, why then beg.


 
Perhaps the begging is done by those who aren't yet settled in Hukam, to become so.  I don't know.  What other interpretation can be given to Guru Sahib's asking/seeking/mangai in the Shabad?


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

Ishna ji

Good! But why is Guru Nanak begging? Guru Nanak already has/had Darshan.

p/s I am going Socratic here because I really don't understand.


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

SPNADMIN NOTE to all replying to this thread. NO POSTING OF SINGLE TUKS. This is done to prove a point but in context of a complete shabad a different meaning can be and is often found. This is a real problem especially when the tuk is given in a non-standard transliteration and there is no ang number. Someone has to locate the shabad and that is time-consuming with transliterations. The rule is a complete shabad (at minimum a pauree or saloka) with Gurmukhi and an Ang number. Thank you.


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## Ishna (Nov 11, 2013)

You don't understand my question or you don't understand why Guru Nanak is begging?

Hmm. *ponders*

Furthermore why would Guru Sahib write so many shabads talking about the pain of separation if he was already united? For our benefit, so we can relate to the Shabad, perhaps? *continues to ponder*

This is a bit left field but might be some food for though:  http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart230.htm  being T. Singh's "The Beggar".


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 11, 2013)

Ishna said:


> You don't understand my question or you don't understand why Guru Nanak is begging?
> 
> Hmm. *ponders*
> 
> ...




jai ho Ishna ji :wahmunda:,

well said  , ya its like teacher holding   kids hands in his hand to draw A ,B,C... .


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 11, 2013)

Ishna said:


> The thing being asked for is Darshan, the removal of the sense of separation, to always be in simran. We are already united, we just have to realise it, and *this* is the realisation we seek. IMHO.




on the spot ..we just need to associate our conciousness/Surat to Shabad Guru .


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

One good insult deserves another or no !  lol

Once someone said, Those who can do and those who can't teach. And we have a lot of people walking the earth, including here on the forum,  who are quite ready to share about the importance of "losing ego, killing the 5 thieves, the importance of being humble, and how to get to turiya. But so far few I have heard from have managed it.

Harmanprret singh ji I posted a shabad for you. When you have the time and inclination, please do reply to my question from a Gurmat point of view. How does the shabad on Ang 400 containing the tuk "Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai ri " tell us that Gurbani encourages begging?  at this permalink in green font http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/41846-begging-in-gurbani.html#post193291

First step to learning is to admit you don't know. On this point I do not know. Without question I believe Guru Nanak was humble, and Guru Nanak had accepted the hukam of Waheguru. So I repeat... Why is Guru Nanak begging for Darshan that he already has taken? Thanks for the link Ishna ji, I will check it.


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

Ishna ji

I have read the link. Like many articles at gurbani.org which I have read in the past, this doesn't answer my question. I am not convinced of that the author takes a helpful approach, and gives "stock in trade" replies found all over the net.

Adding this thought a bit later to explain what I mean by "stock in trade" replies. The article draws a link between humility and begging. John who is begging at the doors of the shopping centre may not be Humble John.Humility is not a necessary condition for begging. Many beg who are not humble. John may have very egotistical reasons for begging. On the opposite end, begging is not sufficient proof of humility. We take a leap if we argue "So and So is begging, therefore he must be humble." The lessons at gurbani.org may or may not be the only conclusions possible based on the shabads as presented. 

  I won't go off topic with more of my criticisms, but still wish to thank you for searching out something for me to read.


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## Ishna (Nov 11, 2013)

How about 'Those who can, do; those who can't, forum'? lol

j/k!!!

But on a serious note, if I did offend you, it was unintentional and I apologize.


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## spnadmin (Nov 11, 2013)

Ishna ji


Profound! You have nothing to apologize for.  Thanks for your sensitivity.


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 11, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> Ishna ji
> 
> Good! But why is Guru Nanak begging? Guru Nanak already has/had Darshan.
> p/s I am going Socratic here because I really don't understand.



IMHO, It is the humility of Guru Sahibaan that they are teaching us as to how to realize the Naam i.e by making earnest requests/beg by making prayers and by following the teachings contained in the shabad.......[ Giani Thakur Singh of Patiala in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji- katha/ deiscourses that is available on Internet.If any one needs the link it shall be posted  as I shall have to make a small search.]


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## spnadmin (Nov 13, 2013)

Guru Amardas ji Ang 586/7

Does Gurbani encourage begging? Or does it encourage finding one's spiritual center within the hukam of one's own present circumstances?

I am seeking an answer to a work-related question. After 3 long distance phone calls to Washington, things turned confusing. An answering service for the wrong organization picked up my calls for the organization I was actually trying to reach just after 9 am. Then, I made 3 more calls, and the correct party answered but transferred me to voice mail. I am still waiting for 3 return answers. I made a final call to Pittsburgh where the advice I received was just as uncertain as my own thinking on the problem. It was time for a break. 

I take hukamnama.

The pauree is the hukamnama I took this morning. Not for physical, emotional or spiritual pain. Not for spiritual or emotional confusion. I was feeling just fine, except for one thing. My brain was just not working. 


 ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Salok mėhlā 3.
Shalok, Third Mehl:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਭੁਖ ਗਈ ਭੇਖੀ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Saṯgur mili▫ai bẖukẖ ga▫ī bẖekẖī bẖukẖ na jā▫e.
Meeting with the True Guru, hunger departs; *by wearing the robes of a beggar, hunger does not depart.

* _Gurbani does not encourage "begging."_

ਦੁਖਿ ਲਗੈ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਅਗੈ ਦੂਣੀ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
Ḏukẖ lagai gẖar gẖar firai agai ḏūṇī milai sajā▫e.
Afflicted with pain, he wanders from house to house, and in the world hereafter, he receives double punishment.

_That is me wandering from department to department and org to org becoming confused and frustrated. I was frustrated because a work-related problem needs an answer which has been hard to get. And was losing focus. _

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਲੈ ਖਾਇ ॥
Anḏar sahj na ā▫i▫o sėhje hī lai kẖā▫e.
Peace does not come to his heart - he is not content to eat what comes his way.

_The shabad comes my way and settles my mind._

ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਲੈਣਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਮਨਾਇ ॥
Manhaṯẖ jis ṯe mangṇā laiṇā ḏukẖ manā▫e.
With his stubborn mind, he begs, and grabs, and annoys those who give.
_
In this case, I am annoying myself more than anyone else._

ਇਸੁ ਭੇਖੈ ਥਾਵਹੁ ਗਿਰਹੋ ਭਲਾ ਜਿਥਹੁ ਕੋ ਵਰਸਾਇ ॥
Is bẖekẖai thāvhu girho bẖalā jithahu ko varsā▫e.
*Instead of wearing these beggar's robes, it is better to be a householder, and give to others.*
_
I have yet today to do this but will help anyone today whose brain is similarly spent._

ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਤਿਨਾ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥
Sabaḏ raṯe ṯinā sojẖī pa▫ī ḏūjai bẖaram bẖulā▫e.
Those who are attuned to the Word of the Shabad, acquire understanding; the others wander, deluded by doubt.
_
Never has the shabad failed me in problems large and looming or small. As of this moment I am not certain whether the problem at work will straighten itself out. Everything depends on regulations coming from a national organization that has not been helpful so far. At this moment I am content to wait._

ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Pa▫i▫ai kiraṯ kamāvaṇā kahṇā kacẖẖū na jā▫e.
They act according to their past actions; it is useless to talk to them._

It is useless for me to pound away at the problem. The confusion will continue or I can chose to be patient._

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਹਿ ਸੇ ਭਲੇ ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਪਤਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਥਾਇ ॥੧॥
Nānak jo ṯis bẖāvėh se bẖale jin kī paṯ pāvahi thā▫e. ||1||
O Nanak, those who are pleasing unto the Lord are good; He upholds their honor. ||1||

_Things are not the "end-of-the-world." This like all other work-related questions will solve itself the way such things are meant to be solved. This is out of my control. The Guru settles all affairs. No need for me to dishonor myself with frantic thinking or by making demands on others._


I decided to take hukam because often the shabad will focus my attention and filter out scattered thoughts. Later then I am able to concentrate on things. So interesting that the pauree is related to this thread in spite of the fact I wasn't even thinking about this thread at the time!    Cool~


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## spnadmin (Nov 13, 2013)

Update - Everything worked out fine. All Phone calls returned. No compliance problems. Waheguru will settle all our affairs. Why beg? He does not fail us.


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 13, 2013)

sat sri akaal Admin ji ,


The Shabad you quoted above is totally unrelated to present discussion .


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## spnadmin (Nov 13, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> sat sri akaal Admin ji ,
> 
> 
> The Shabad you quoted above is totally unrelated to present discussion .




Guru Nanak's blessings continued to the end of the day. Later because of a different problem at work, and one that is about 4 years standing, I finally realized its cause, and how it worsened over time. I discovered the meaning of the "narrative of the powerless." Because of this, I can now understand why splinter groups in the quom bicker amongst themselves and undermine one another in full view of an overbearing and powerful challenger that is very real. Now I understand why this has transpired since the partition. Call it maya; the narrative is nonetheless real and the pain is real. The narrative is the tale of those who feel powerless but do not know how to change their narrative except by consuming each other. This understanding changed my outlook in many ways. Something to think about.


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## Luckysingh (Nov 16, 2013)

> ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਭੁਖ ਗਈ ਭੇਖੀ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
> Saṯgur mili▫ai bẖukẖ ga▫ī bẖekẖī bẖukẖ na jā▫e.
> Meeting with the True Guru, hunger departs; by wearing the robes of a beggar, hunger does not depart.
> *Gurbani does not encourage "begging."*


 
Adminji, I'm afraid that i may disagree a little here.
Sorry !!..............eacesign:.........It's just that i perceive the shabad a little differently.
I try and be careful to ''Not'' jump the mark and make assumptions too early, since i have made this mistake previously many times !!!!

I wouldn't jump to say that 'Gurbani does NOT encourage begging' too easily here.
I see that the _'wearing of the robes of beggar'_ is the key here. Since this tells me that ''One is dressed outwardly as beggar'' but inwardly they are not begging at all.
It seems to point more towards the ignorant display of begging that one may show, without the true intentions and focus of begging being there.

Begging is about total humility and dropping of your ego in order to get closer to the divine lord. Begging for worldly or maya influences is not the begging i have in mind, as this is itself the ''_dressed_' begging as in the shabad.

Waheguru
:winkingmunda:


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 16, 2013)

> ਇਸੁ ਭੇਖੈ ਥਾਵਹੁ ਗਿਰਹੋ ਭਲਾ ਜਿਥਹੁ ਕੋ ਵਰਸਾਇ ॥
> Is bẖekẖai thāvhu girho bẖalā jithahu ko varsā▫e.
> 
> *Instead of wearing these beggar's robes, it is better to be a householder, and give to others.*


the Shabad above ,quoted by admin ji  is  abt person who left householders life and beggs alms for survival  from others.


begging from Waheguru ji for spiritual wisdom  is saperate issue  and its encouraged on nearly every Ang of Guru Granth Sahib ji .


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## spnadmin (Nov 16, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> the Shabad above ,quoted by admin ji  is  abt person who left householders life and beggs alms for survival  from others.
> 
> 
> begging from Waheguru ji for spiritual wisdom  is saperate issue  and its encouraged on nearly every Ang of Guru Granth Sahib ji .



harmanpreet singh jio

You have not yet given us your vichaar of the shabad which I so graciously posted for you (see Shabad in green). Your one-liner was a violation of TOS, and I posted it for you even after you rudely commented on my lack of intelligence. You have not shown how the shabad shows Gurbani encourages begging. You have only made a declaration that it does.

It would be a good idea to go back and explain what the shabad is saying. Even here a comparison of shabads would be helpful. This is not a thread that flourishes under pendu style of written expression. There are other forums that would welcome that kind of talk. Thank you.


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## spnadmin (Nov 17, 2013)

harmanpreet singh ji

I have deleted your last reply for a number of reasons. First, however, maybe you forgot that the shabad I asked you about was on the first page of this thread. I am now asking for the 3rd time. Here it is again with your comment.




> Your comment
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here you are changing your tune 



> the Shabad above ,quoted by admin ji is abt person who left householders life and beggs alms for survival from others.
> 
> 
> begging from Waheguru ji for spiritual wisdom is saperate issue and its encouraged on nearly every Ang of Guru Granth Sahib ji .



Did you decide that you over-spoke in earlier comments?

To quote respected forum member Tejwant Singh ji, "We are all learners." "We are here to learn." So I am politely asking, please give us your vichaar of the shabad in green, now that I have re-posted it for you a second time. You were saying that particular shabad encouraged begging. How does it encourage begging?


Don't switch to a different shabad. It looks like a mind game. Learning depends on being honest with one another.

Please always post Gurmukhi with English so that all can check to make sure the translation is close to the Punjabi version. 


More mind play; an infraction will follow as a first step.


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 18, 2013)

Sat sri akaal Admin ji ,


As per my  understanding of Gurbani , Gurbani encourages us  to beg "NAAM"  day and night from Waheguru ji  . the very first Tuk that  entered my mind on seeing this thread was 

"Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai ri "
ie 
ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਭੇਟੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੩॥
Āṯẖ pahar kar joṛ rahu ṯa▫o bẖetai har rā▫e rī. ||3||
Twenty-four hours a day, stand with your palms pressed together, and the Lord, your King, shall meet you. ||3||



"palms pressed togather "  in Gurbani is associated with  begging , and  several other Gurbani Shabads conveys the same meaning .

I have deleted content that veers from the question. Thank you for making a start. spnadmin


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## Luckysingh (Nov 19, 2013)

Harmanpreetji, I appreciate you reply and can see what you mean but may be you have realized or not, this is not about begging at all, unless you are looking at it very superficially.

The shabad in question makes me imagine the scenario of the soul-bride/wife at home waiting for husband lord.

I will start half way down with some of the keywords that strike me and will try and explain. I know this shabad isn't the core of the topic concerned, but i couldn't help notice some appealing gems in the tuks so I thought i would share.

ਭਰਤਾ ਕਹੈ ਸੁ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਏਹੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇ ਰੀ ॥
Bẖarṯā kahai so mānī▫ai ehu sīgār baṇā▫e rī.
Whatever your Husband Lord says, accept that, and make it your decoration.

The decoration is to be accepting whatever husband says. If he says I want this to eat when i get home, I want extra blanket and pillows...blah ..blah, then when he comes home he will look at his wife and subconsciously see or wish for all these demands to be bursting from the sides like little cartoon bubbles !
Hence, she is decorated in his demands and wishes.

ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਵਿਸਾਰੀਐ ਏਹੁ ਤੰਬੋਲਾ ਖਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੨॥
Ḏūjā bẖā▫o visārī▫ai ehu ṯambolā kẖā▫e rī. ||2||
Forget the love of duality, and chew upon this betel leaf. ||2||

Forget about any others or being in love with duality(maya), but chewing the betel leaf makes the womens lips attractive/sexy colour which she would do for her husband/lord. (Similar to nowadays evening fragrance of coco chanel!!)

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੀਪਕੋ ਇਹ ਸਤ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਬਿਛਾਇ ਰੀ ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ kar ḏīpko ih saṯ kī sej bicẖẖā▫e rī.
Make the Word of the Guru's Shabad your lamp, and let your bed be Truth.

The wife would wait ready with a lamp to help light and guide the way to the bed that waits for husband. Shabad/word of guru is the lamp that_ leads_ to the bed of Truth.
I like this because it strongly says Guru shabad LEADS to the Truth and also that the LAMP will lead to enlightenment 
since; Lighting up the mind = Enlightenment, quite simply !!

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਭੇਟੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੩॥l
Āṯẖ pahar kar joṛ rahu ṯa▫o bẖetai har rā▫e rī. ||3||
Twenty-four hours a day, stand with your palms pressed together, and the Lord, your King, shall meet you. ||3||
*This line, the one in question is the soul-bride waiting with palms pressed together 24/7, which says that she waits ''beck and call'' like a servant to the master, ready to serve anything. Therefore, soul-bride is not begging, but prepared to provide whatever service husband lord may request.*
*You could say she is begging for attention, so that she can offer he undivided attention, or is begging for her husband to question or ask her, but this is not the same as 'manganar or mangai' begging.*


ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਚਜੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਈ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਿ ਰੀ ॥
Ŧis hī cẖaj sīgār sabẖ sā▫ī rūp apār rī.
She alone is cultured and embellished, and she alone is of incomparable beauty.

ਸਾਈ ਸਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਭਾਣੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ਰੀ ॥੪॥੧੬॥੧੧੮॥
Sā▫ī sohagaṇ nānkā jo bẖāṇī karṯār rī. ||4||16||118||
She alone is the happy soul-bride, O Nanak, who is pleasing to the Creator Lord. ||4||16||118||

Only that soul bride that has all the qualities and is decorated(remember the cartoon bubbles above!), is the one with unlimited beauty. And she alone is the one that is pleasing to the Lord with all the qualities that he may wish for.


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## spnadmin (Nov 19, 2013)

:happy:


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## harmanpreet singh (Nov 19, 2013)

Lucky ji 

my posts here are generally edited or deleted ,for the reasons best known to moderators here  .




> ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਭੇਟੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੩॥l
> Āṯẖ pahar kar joṛ rahu ṯa▫o bẖetai har rā▫e rī. ||3||
> Twenty-four hours a day, stand with your palms pressed together, and the Lord, your King, shall meet you. ||3||
> *This  line, the one in question is the soul-bride waiting with palms pressed  together 24/7, which says that she waits ''beck and call'' like a  servant to the master, ready to serve anything. Therefore, soul-bride is  not begging, but prepared to provide whatever service husband lord may  request.*
> *You could say she is begging for attention,  so that she can offer he undivided attention, or is begging for her  husband to question or ask her, but this is not the same as 'manganar or  mangai' begging.*


its  normal to have different interpretation of Gurbani  , to you "palm pressed to togather 24/7"  mean  waiting "beck and call "  ,to me  "begging for darshan" appears more suitable .
ie why i quoted another shabad (there are numerous ) that associated "palm pressed togather" with mangai or begging directly, that was deleted by moderators here  its again 

ਚਰਣ ਧੂੜਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਹੋਵਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰਸਨ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥
Cẖaraṇ ḏẖūṛ ṯere jan kī hovā ṯere ḏarsan ka▫o bal jā▫ī.
May I become the dust of the feet of Your humble servants. I am a sacrifice to the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਚਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰੀ ਤਉ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੰਗੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
Amriṯ bacẖan riḏai ur ḏẖārī ṯa▫o kirpā ṯe sang pā▫ī. ||2||
I enshrine Your Ambrosial Word within my heart. By Your Grace, I have found the Company of the Holy. ||2||
ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਹਿ ਸਾਰੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
Anṯar kī gaṯ ṯuḏẖ pėh sārī ṯuḏẖ jevad avar na ko▫ī.
I place the state of my inner being before You; there is no other as great as You.
ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਲਾਇ ਲੈਹਿ ਸੋ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਗਤੁ ਤੁਹਾਰਾ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
Jis no lā▫e laihi so lāgai bẖagaṯ ṯuhārā so▫ī. ||3||
He alone is attached, whom You attach; he alone is Your devotee. ||3||
ਦੁਇ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ *ਮਾਗਉ *ਇਕੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਸਾਹਿਬਿ ਤੁਠੈ ਪਾਵਾ ॥
Ḏu▫e kar joṛ* māga▫o* ik ḏānā sāhib ṯuṯẖai pāvā.
With my palms pressed together, I *beg* for this one gift; O my Lord and Master, if it pleases You, I shall obtain it.
ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਰਾਧੇ ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਾ ॥੪॥੯॥੫੬॥
Sās sās Nānak ārāḏẖe āṯẖ pahar guṇ gāvā. ||4||9||56||
With each and every breath, Nanak adores You; twenty-four hours a day, I sing Your Glorious Praises. ||4||9||56||


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