# Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Is Masculine Or Feminine And What Is The Significa



## Ambarsaria

I share below couple of great comments I got from gurmatbibek site regarding this question.

  1.  Grammar oriented




> Gurbani grammar differentiates between masculine/feminine gender nouns by the presence or absence of SIHARI, BIHARI OR ONKAR, on them or the related adjectives or verbs of these nouns.


   2.  Essence and Reference


> In Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, there is hardly any reference to Vaheguru as feminine. Even when Guru Sahib calls Vaheguru Mata, He says "Mera Mata" and not "Meri Mata". But this does not mean that Vaheguru according to Gurbani is masculine.
> 
> *Masculine and feminine qualities are only peculiar to this body. Our Atma and Parmatma are not gender based.*​


  Additionally I believe, from what I understand, the use of masculinity in General in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is such that the female persona did not become a point of illustration and possible misuse.  Feminine or female persona was considered sacred and beyond reproach and so was the use of such not common in dialog or the conveyance of messages of Guru jis.  This is just my observation and I apologize ahead of time in any errors.

  What do you think?

  Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It is really an interesting subject which every Gursikh must become familiar to get clear understanding about the messages of Gurbani.
I personally feel that our understanding about CREATOR is confusing .According to Gurbani CREATOR is SYSTEM which itself is CREATED from the word GuRoo.Thus the source of SYSTEM CREATOR is the word GuROO itself.(This word GuRoo is GuR with Dulakad matra under its letter R).This we are not able to catchand hence the difference in understanding.

The words NOUNS and or ADJECTIVES are classified as
According to gender as Masculine/Feminine or Neutral
According to Vachan that is the number the word represents

Further there are several classification of Nouns and the most important found in Gurbani are Common Noun and COLLECTIVE NOUNS.
In Gurbani we have to understand the significance of COLLECTIVE NOUNS.
COLLECTIVE Nouns are words for representing two things together

GENDER OF WORDS In GURBANI
..........................................

In Gurbani the gender of the NOUN words is as 
The NOUN words with a matra of AUKAD under its last letter is MASCULINE(SINGULAR)  whereas the words without any matra under its last letter is FEMININE (SINGULAR)
.Further any FEMINIE(SINGULAR) is a MASCULINE (PLURAL)...This is very important to understand.
If we apply the above grammer to the word GuR we can see

GuRoo.(Masuline,SINGULAR COLLECTIVE NOUN) and 

GUR....(MASCULINE PLURAL) or FEMININE SINGULAR.

Now one can see that the word GuR is SINGULAR FMININE but PLURALMASCULINE
and this understanding can reveal the difference in the reference meanings of the words GuRoo/GuRu and GuR.

This is my personal understanding of Gurbani grammer and is subject to discussion.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sandeep17oct

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

CAll it whatever you like. Assign an attribute male to it if that pleases you or do the opposite . Does that change the word? Does it have an effect on the message that it tries to convey? These questions arise in the mind to distract the individual from the path and keep him/her astray. Concentrate on the Naam. No better time than this. Human life is rarest among the rare .Dont waste it on petty questions as these. 
Waheguruji ka Khalsa. Whaeguruji ki Fateh.


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

SANDEEP17Oct ji,
Well said ,but can you tell what is NAAM you are talking about.?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sandeep17oct

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

We are blessed in so many ways that we have the gift of the Naam with us if we keep that in mind we will never fall astray. With His grace we know Him and He Himself separates and then reunites.
Waheguruji Ka Khalsa. Waheguruji ki Fateh.


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## sandeep17oct

The Naam is Waheguru.


prakash.s.bagga said:


> SANDEEP17Oct ji,
> Well said ,but can you tell what is NAAM you are talking about.?
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

SANDEEP 17 Oct ji,
Can you give any quote from Gurbani to confirm your message about NAAM as mentioned by your goodself.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sandeep17oct

Prakash Ji
Page 839, Line 18
ਤਹੀ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਚੋ ਨਾਉ ॥
तही निरंजनु साचो नाउ ॥
Ŧahī niranjan sācẖo nā▫o.
and *concentrate *on the pure True Name.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


prakash.s.bagga said:


> SANDEEP 17 Oct ji,
> Can you give any quote from Gurbani to confirm your message about NAAM as mentioned by your goodself.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller

sandeep17oct said:


> CAll it whatever you like. Assign an attribute male to it if that pleases you or do the opposite . Does that change the word? Does it have an effect on the message that it tries to convey? These questions arise in the mind to distract the individual from the path and keep him/her astray. Concentrate on the Naam. No better time than this. Human life is rarest among the rare .Dont waste it on petty questions as these.
> Waheguruji ka Khalsa. Whaeguruji ki Fateh.



Sandeepji, 

I notice you are new to Sikhism, I welcome any debate on points such as these, they further our knowledge and understanding, You are also questioning someone who has been an inspiration to my understanding of Sikhism and has done much Seva in bringing concepts and translations to this forum. 

I do not think the first posts someone new should make is a criticism of the thread discussion in a manner such as this, I detect arrogance, ego, anger, and yet in the thread question, just a desire to serve and a desire to be hunble, I hope your future contributions are a bit more positive and inclusive, rather than negative and divisive

best wishes


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

SANDEEP17Oct ji,
This is not the answer to what asked for.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sandeep17oct

Harry Ji
I am extremely sorry if my posts appeared arrogant and critical. As I am new please forgive my folly and I will try and be considerate in my expression.


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## sandeep17oct

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Prakash Ji
I dont think I am eligible to answer your query.


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## Harry Haller

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sandeepji, 

Brother, now, like the rest of us, with love and humility, we can learn, 

Please feel free to likewise point out to me if you feel any of the thieves are present in my posts

kudihug


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## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal,

Following reference can resolve

naaree purakh sabaa-ee lo-ay. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining
(His is used as the author being male but jyot has no gender)

har kay bi-og kaisay jee-a-o mayree maa-ee. 331-1
I am separated from the Lord; how can I survive, O my mother? ||1||Pause||

ka-un ko purakh ka-un kee naaree.
Whose husband is he? Whose wife is she?

araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu.

saach katayb bakhaanai alhu naar purakh nahee ko-ee.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.
(Again "he" is used as the author being male but the right way can be "one" referred "is neither male nor female)

parmaysar ditaa bannaa. 627-17
The Transcendent Lord has given me His support.
dukh rog kaa dayraa bhannaa.
The house of pain and disease has been demolished.
anad karahi nar naaree.
The men and women celebrate.

sunn mandal ik jogee baisay. 685-16
The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits within the celestial sphere of deepest Samaadhi.
naar na purakh kahhu ko-oo kaisay.
He is not male, and He is not female; how can anyone

purakh meh naar naar meh purkhaa boojhhu barahm gi-aanee. 879-2
The female is in the male, and the male is in the female. Understand this, O God-realized being!

naaree purakh purakh sabh naaree sabh ayko purakh muraaray. 983-2
Women and men, all the men and women, all came from the One Primal Lord God

aapay purakh aapay hee naaree. 1020-15
You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

Wheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fatheh


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

From the last quote given by Ravneet Sb ji as

"aapay Purakh aapay Naaree" pp1020-15

It is pretty obvious that the CREATOR in Gurbani is MALE as well as FEMALE.Therefore it would be interesting to note what constitutes MALE as well FEMALE together for THE CREATOR.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Prakashji,

What constitutes male as well as female, also constitutes what is neither male, nor female, also constitutes what likes pepsi, and doesnt like pepsi,and what is neither huge, nor small, neither likes KFC, neither dislikes KFC.......... The Creator simply is everything ......inho


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

HARRY HALLAR Ji,

Your analysis is very correct. This is why THE CREATOR in Gurbani is refered  by words which are SINGULAR,COLLECTIVE NOUNS represening two things together.
Now you can also analyse about the grammer of the word GOD and see how we can referTHE CREATOR in Gurbani as GOD.
The word GOD is SINGULAR COMMON NOUN ,MASCULINE GENDER...........................
 Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

This shows how our Gurus were visionary and practiced gender equality in all aspects. The proof is that they gave both genders to Ik Ong Kaar in Gurbani. There are many Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru where Ik Ong Kaar is mentioned as Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, mate etc. etc.

So, in order to have gender equality, The Source is explained in both genders. What a great vision of our Gurus!

One more interesting thing to notice is that Ik Ong Kaar is addressed as Tun, Tunhee, Tera etc. etc. which in Punjabi language are singulars but in Punjabi culture, they are considered disrespectful, even insulting when addressed to our elders. We use plurals like Tusi,Tuhadei, Tuhanoo etc. etc. as a sign of reverence and respect.

Thanks to our visionary Gurus, they only used the singular, not as a sign of an insult nor as a sign of disrespect but to breed/ create/develop closeness to Ik Ong Kaar. Hence,* Ik Ong Kaar* is our Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, and the most important, *our Mate, our Friend*.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Thanks Prakash S. Bagga ji, Tejwant Singh ji, Harry Haller ji.

Fundamental reason for my initial question was that as I endevor to create some translations I am forced to ask myself whether I should use He, She, It ,etc., or cleverly avoid using any of these with words like such, so, etc.

Perhaps we will see some practical applications of this thread when we review, comment and correct me on my effort and post of attempted and humble Gurbani translations.
I am much happier through interactions and contributions of all in this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well,I will always welcome and appreciate your efforts to interprate Gurbani as per grammatical considerations of the Divine Words.This would be great SEWA by your goodself and it would be my pleasure to be of any use in this regard.

I understand you are fully capable of doing so in the larger interest of Gurbani understanding.
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

prakash.s.bagga veer ji I am trying to do so as if it helps me and others.

I would be so happy to see you correct any of my errors given your great knowledge which I respect.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It is a shocking news for me.
I wish your contribution will be really A GREAT TRIBUTE for your beloved ones.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Ambarsaria ji,
The Eastern way of viewing God is that He is consciousness and and She is matter.

Page 21, Line 4
ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
जह देखा तह रवि रहे सिव सकती का मेलु ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiv and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.
Guru Nanak Dev


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## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal,

All thought's expresses are with limited awareness and can be interacted/commented/rejected or accepted


"Ik" "O A M" "Kar"  

Please don't read "man" and "woman" as man/woman   have male and female, it's above 
that

"Ik" is to involve female in religion
as "Oam" was for male, and 
earlier only that was form to recite 
and 
woman were not allowed, the reason was principles were not supposed to be applicable, practice etc.

It is like phenomenon of "light" have own behavior and principles

And phenomenon of "Sound" have own behavior and principles

"Ik Oam" is both for man and woman form 
"Ik" if for feminine as light causes dual phenomenon, and is natural, so it is difficult to follow one path, it deviate to other region

"Oam" was for male form
to feminine it has no effect 

In human male forms is affected from sound and its behaviors
and female form is affected by light and its behaviors

To address light for the cause of "Duality"  "Ik" was attached to "Oam" 
for complete formation of religion and region (Human Body) 
"Ikoam Kar" 
all actions
action as thought (astral)/speech (Subtle) /physical(Matter). are done by nature.
To human perception it appears as "I" because of lost awareness

Sikh Religion is formed with research from all the previous practices, and ruling out imperfections of the past practices.

When sikh religion was initiated "Gorakh Nath" was religious head, and he was invited for discussion with Gur Nanak Dev Ji, but he didn't turned up, as he was already aware of 
Guru Nanak Dev Ji spiritual enlightment, he send his followers for discussion, as they were the one's who needs convincing.

There are only and only two primal energies existing "Light" and "Sound"
All other forms energy are derivative of these energy forms.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Ambarsaria

ravneet_sb ji can you please relate what you say to appropriate thread.  For example you are contradicting what is in the following discourse,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html#post154763

The following that you state is plain wrong,



> "Ik" "O A M" "Kar"
> 
> Please don't read "man" and "woman" as man/woman   have male and female, it's above
> that
> 
> "Ik" is to involve female in religion
> as "Oam" was for male, and
> earlier only that was form to recite
> and
> woman were not allowed, the reason was principles were not supposed to be applicable, practice etc.


_There is no _*"O A M"* in 

*ੴ (Ik▫oaŉkār)*

Please provide a reference for the following in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or wherever you got it from,



> Sikh Religion is formed with research from all the previous practices, and ruling out imperfections of the past practices.


Please provide scientific reference for the following,


> There are only and only two primal energies existing "Light" and "Sound"
> All other forms energy are derivative of these energy forms.


I am sorry this is Gurmat Vichhar and some criticality of thought is desirable if possible and I don't know your background to know if my query is in scope for your training, experiences or understanding.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

Any realisation can be rejected, 
but most of comprehension can not be proved or justified,
and are written, the way it comes, 
and after realisation,  reference are available in sacred books also.



Spell of O A M from Hindu Sacred Text as OM not in english 

if it differ as

(Ref Phonetics By Kulbir Singh Thind, MD and Translation by  Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD


ik- oN kaar  

OM in hindu sacred books of oN as referred in Sikh Sacred books to discuss

is beyond my understanding and comment,
to discuss, 

one should be aware of origin of words, 
in respective sphere hindu sacred text and sikh sacred books


Further

(Ref Phonetics By Kulbir Singh Thind, MD and Translation by  Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD

There is refernce of all sacred books of the time though sacred text of european text were missing, but all the text have same universal thought process.


gurmukh naadaN gurmukh vaydaN gurmukh rahi-aa samaa-ee. 
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of 
the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading. 

guru eIsru guru gorKu brmw guru pwrbqI mweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1) 
gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee. 

The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. 
 jy hau jwxw AwKw nwhI khxw kQnu n jweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1) 

jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee. 
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words. 
 gurw iek dyih buJweI ] (2-10, jpu, mÚ 1) 

guraa ik dayhi bujhaa-ee. 
The Guru has given me this one understanding: 
sBnw jIAw kw ieku dwqw so mY ivsir n jweI ]5] (2-10, jpu, mÚ 1) 

sabhnaa jee-aa kaa ik daataa so mai visar na jaa-ee. ||5|| 
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5|| 



How to realise deities As Brahma/Shiv/Vishnu 
They are part of "GURU's BANI"

How to realise these dieties.

To my knowledge they are deities within human body, 
in the form of inside body parts,
earlier this science was taught in the form of human icons, after literature was
developed, this way was discarded, 
as this form of education was wrongly utilised by section of pandits.


Inside body in one's life

As an examle of life process

what causes young age, how young age is caused, when young age is caused,
where one has become young, how youth was evoked are beyond comprehension

if one is aware or realised, than only one get to self understand.


Religion is based on faith beyond comprehension.
Five K's Kab, Kahan, Kaun, Kaise, Kyun can not be explained but realised, through science. 

Facts are more realistic, but other writtings are realisation beyond comprehension.
So it can be rejected as redundant writtings.

One always have the right to reject thought

For me, 
all Gurmat Veechar posts are valuable, 
to evoke mind, 
thanks for writting.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

RAVNEET SB ji,

Your views are more or less in the acceptable range of perception.But Gurbani"s ultimate message about NAAMu is what is required to be understood.
Without understanding of NAAMu ,all other understandings are of not much use.
In Gurbani the concepts of Hindu philosophy have been given to provide correct knowledge of NAAMu only.
We should try to know how Sikh philosophy is different from Hindu and Other philosophies of the world.Unless we do this we shall remain in the present status quo
about Sikh philosophy.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

RAVNEET sb ji,
For your reference


kwieAw AMdir bRhmw ibsnu mhysw sB Epiq ijqu sMswrw ] (754-16)
kaa-i-aa andar barahmaa bisan mahaysaa sabh opat jit sansaaraa.
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.
scY Awpxw Kylu rcwieAw Awvw gauxu pwswrw ] (754-17)
sachai aapnaa khayl rachaa-i-aa aavaa ga-on paasaaraa.
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.
pUrY siqguir Awip idKwieAw sic nwim insqwrw ]7] (754-17)
poorai satgur aap dikhaa-i-aa sach naam nistaaraa. ||7||
The Perfect True Guru Himself has made it clear, that emancipation comes through the True Name. ||7||
sw kwieAw jo siqguru syvY scY Awip svwrI ] (754-18)
saa kaa-i-aa jo satgur sayvai sachai aap savaaree.
That body, which serves the True Guru, is embellished by the True Lord Himself.
ivxu nwvY dir FoeI nwhI qw jmu kry KuAwrI ] (754-18)
vin naavai dar dho-ee naahee taa jam karay khu-aaree.
Without the Name, the mortal finds no place of rest in the Court of the Lord; he shall be tortured by the Messenger of Death.
nwnk scu vifAweI pwey ijs no hir ikrpw DwrI ]8]2] (754-19)
naanak sach vadi-aa-ee paa-ay jis no har kirpaa Dhaaree. ||8||2||
O Nanak, true glory is bestowed, when the Lord showers His Mercy. ||8||2||

Pl look at the last two lines of the SABAD

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal,

How to contemplate Deity 

"Brahma"  "Vishnu"  "Shiva"  in life forms.

"Brahma" as "leaves" "Vishnu" as "stem"and "Shiva" as "fruit" in life forms.

In humans??? 

In "Guru's Bani" these are  referred twice in life forms

Someone  having realisation on the subject.


Shall it be new thread


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

RAVNEET sb ji,

If anyone contemplates Gurmati RAAM NAAMu from Gurbani,then nothing else is required to be contemplated.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Taranjeet singh

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Any realisation can be rejected,
> but most of comprehension can not be proved or justified,
> and are written, the way it comes,
> and after realisation,  reference are available in sacred books also.
> 
> 
> 
> Spell of O A M from Hindu Sacred Text as OM not in english
> 
> if it differ as
> 
> (Ref Phonetics By Kulbir Singh Thind, MD and Translation by  Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD
> 
> 
> ik- oN kaar
> 
> OM in hindu sacred books of oN as referred in Sikh Sacred books to discuss
> 
> is beyond my understanding and comment,
> to discuss,
> 
> one should be aware of origin of words,
> in respective sphere hindu sacred text and sikh sacred books
> 
> 
> Further
> 
> (Ref Phonetics By Kulbir Singh Thind, MD and Translation by  Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD
> 
> There is refernce of all sacred books of the time though sacred text of european text were missing, but all the text have same universal thought process.
> 
> 
> gurmukh naadaN gurmukh vaydaN gurmukh rahi-aa samaa-ee.
> The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
> 
> guru eIsru guru gorKu brmw guru pwrbqI mweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
> gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee.
> 
> The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
> jy hau jwxw AwKw nwhI khxw kQnu n jweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
> 
> jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee.
> Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
> gurw iek dyih buJweI ] (2-10, jpu, mÚ 1)
> 
> guraa ik dayhi bujhaa-ee.
> The Guru has given me this one understanding:
> sBnw jIAw kw ieku dwqw so mY ivsir n jweI ]5] (2-10, jpu, mÚ 1)
> 
> sabhnaa jee-aa kaa ik daataa so mai visar na jaa-ee. ||5||
> there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||
> 
> 
> 
> How to realise deities As Brahma/Shiv/Vishnu
> They are part of "GURU's BANI"
> 
> How to realise these dieties.
> 
> To my knowledge they are deities within human body,
> in the form of inside body parts,
> earlier this science was taught in the form of human icons, after literature was
> developed, this way was discarded,
> as this form of education was wrongly utilised by section of pandits.
> 
> 
> Inside body in one's life
> 
> As an examle of life process
> 
> what causes young age, how young age is caused, when young age is caused,
> where one has become young, how youth was evoked are beyond comprehension
> 
> if one is aware or realised, than only one get to self understand.
> 
> 
> Religion is based on faith beyond comprehension.
> Five K's Kab, Kahan, Kaun, Kaise, Kyun can not be explained but realised, through science.
> 
> Facts are more realistic, but other writtings are realisation beyond comprehension.
> So it can be rejected as redundant writtings.
> 
> One always have the right to reject thought
> 
> For me,
> all Gurmat Veechar posts are valuable,
> to evoke mind,
> thanks for writting.
> 
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh



An excellent post though I could not make out something from some parts. But it does not matter as my understanding is very limited and I am not as learned as other members are but do intend to learn more. 
Your posts are not conventionally written and hence the beauty lies in uniqueness in presentation.

I have a small query  or a question that has bothered me for quite sometime. It has been stated in the translation that Guru's word is wisdom of Vedas. Vedas have been given a due place in Bani as well. If that be so then ....

1.What is the specific reason that Vedas are rejected in sikhi or its philosophy.?

I have the time to read Gita few years back and I was so much influenced that I bought a copy of it. After checking out with Sikh Rehat Maryada I found that reading is not prohibited.

A second question that you may kindly like to answer. 

2. Does sikh philosophy reject the idea of _Ahm Brahasmi._? [ I am thou.]

If you can,off the cuff, quote some line , I shall be grateful from the core of my heart.

tjs


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,



1.What is the specific reason that Vedas are rejected in sikhi or its philosophy.?

I have the time to read Gita few years back and I was so much influenced that I bought a copy of it. After checking out with Sikh Rehat Maryada I found that reading is not prohibited.

But when something precise/concise/ advance is available, with best features, master prescribes to read latest as it contains previous also, but one miss on latest in previous

Every development has original and developed models so do religious developments.


So on physical or literal developments give a choice

It is like using first model of car or latest BMW, Volkswagon...... 

or 

Learning machine language/ C++/ od dot net


2. Does sikh philosophy reject the idea of _Ahm Brahasmi._? [ I am thou.]

If you can,off the cuff, quote some line , I shall be grateful from the core of my heart.

The latest come after realisation that man is created being 
and all is controlled by nature
to ones perception "I" dwells but in depth realization, that "I" comes with ignorance,
Raj Yog leads to "I" 
but 
"Sat" Yog leads to "You" or "Creator" as "Supreme"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal,

Parkash Singh Ji,

You are right that RAAM NAAMu as prescribed by "GURU's BANI" gives all, 
but ego ask questions and seek for answers.

Thanks for valued response.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## Ambarsaria

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> Spell of O A M from Hindu Sacred Text as OM not in english
> 
> if it differ as
> 
> (Ref Phonetics By Kulbir Singh Thind, MD and Translation by  Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD
> 
> ik- oN kaar


_ravneet_sb ji thanks for your response.  I am sorry I do not accept your explanation.  Just putting down Dr. Kulbir Singh Thind and Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa does not cut it by itself.  If you read the thread I flagged to you the reference is from Prof. Sahib Singh ji who knew Sanskrit and context of Hinduism and the books perhaps more than any of us.  I repeat for you his analysis of _*ੴ *_as follows but see the thread below for complete detail and better still read his Darpan (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html#post154763)_




> Meaning of *ੴ**:*
> 
> 1-ie`k[ E-EAM[ > -kwr[
> 
> Quote:
> ‘E’ sMsik®q dw Sbd hY[ Amr koS Anuswr ies dy iqMn ArQ hn:-
> 
> 
> ‘E’ is a word from Sanskrit.  It has three possible meanings.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> (1)  vyd Awid Drm-pusqkW dy ArMB Aqy A^Ir ivc, Ardws jW iksy piv~qr Drm-kwrj  dy ArMB ivc A`Kr 'EN' piv~qr A`Kr jwx ky vriqAw jWdw hY[
> Used as *EN, *an auspicious word at the beginning or end of religious books.
> Quote:
> (2) iksy hukm jW pRSn Awidk dy au~qr ivc Awdr Aqy siqkwr nwl ‘jI hW’ AwKxw[ so,‘*EN*’ dw ArQ hY 'jI hW'[
> 
> A way and preamble in answering respectfully like “ji haan” (colloquially “yes respectful one”)
> Quote:
> (3) *EN*-bRhm[
> Brahma, a Hindu God /deity.
> Quote:
> iehnW  ivcoN ikhVw ArQ ies Sbd dw ie`Qy ilAw jwxw hY-ies ƒ idRVH krn leI Sbd  'EN' dy pihlW '1' ilK id`qw hY[ ies dw Bwv ieh hY ik ie`Qy 'EN' dw ArQ  hY 'auh hsqI jo iek hY, ijs vrgw hor koeI nhIN hY Aqy ijs ivc ieh swrw  jgq smw jWdw hY['
> _So which one applies!_
> 
> To confirm the proper application of meaning, '1' is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> qIjw  ih`sw > hY, ijs dw au~cwrn hY 'kwr'[ 'kwr' sMsik®q dw iek ipCyqr hY[  Awm qOr qy ieh ipCyqr 'nWv' dy A^Ir ivc vriqAw jWdw hY[ ies dw ArQ hY  'iek-rs, ijs ivc qbdIlI nw Awvy['
> The third part (>  ) is from Sanskrit and is a syllable used at the ending of a word.  It stands for “one essence that may not change”.
> 
> Quote:
> eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
> so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr" Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[


Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA ji,
I have different views about the meaning and pronunciation of the very first SYMBOL.
Since the whole understanding seems to be based on the correct knowledge of this SYMBOL.
Every scholars agree to a point that the SYMBOL has three parts as

1...Numerical Number One

2...Word "Ong"

3....A wave like line  refered as KaaR.

With above information we can see that there are two possible combination of these three parts to get the meaning.

COMBINATION  A....Here Numerical Number is taken as IKas separate and word Ong is combined with KaaR to get as Oankaar.
We write this as IK Oankaar as the pronunciation and give meaning accordingly.

COMBINATION .B...Here Numerical Number can be along withword Ong as EKONg and Kaar can be taken as separate to get as EKANKAAR.

I find that in Gurbani the COMBINATION B is more appropriate than Combination A.
The reason can be clear from the grammer of the word "Ong".
For this let us look a quote from Gurbani as

EAM swD siqgur nmskwrM ] (250-8)
o-aN saaDh satgur namaskaaraN.
ONG: I humbly bow in reverence to the One Universal Creator, to the Holy True Guru

You can see that the word Ong in Gurmukhi script is PLURAL.To make word SINGULAR there is no possibility of making use of matra of AUKAD under its last letter .So the application of Numerical Number One before the word Ong makes this word SINGULAR as EKOng.

So we have the words as 

Word  Ong.......PLURAL

Word EKONg....SINGULAR of Ong.

So the above consideration makes clear that the Pronunciation of the SYMBOL should be  related to COMBINATION B as EKANKAAR which is found in SGGS .

It would be interesting to note that there is no such pronunciation as Ik Oankaar in SGGS  
EKANKAAR is a pronunciation that is in SGGS ,this is accepted by Prof Sahib Singh ji too but surprisingly ithas just been mentioned  but not considered  during interpretation of Gurbani.

I feel that our knowledge about the pronunciation and Meaning of the SYMBOL is totally based of information from Hindu Philosophy whereas there is very clear understanding of Gurbani words according to the Rule of grammers.
I find that we lack in sincerity and clarity in applying the gramatical consideration as indicated by our 5th NANAK Guru Arjan Dev ji.

These are my personal views based on gramatical observations of Gurbani words.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Prakash ji, 
I do not see how the word "Ong" is plural. From the tuk it appears it's singular. Also it is used on it's own in many places in SGGS without Ik in front of it. It is used simply as ਓਅੰਕਾਰ.  So why do you say it is plural?


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
It is nice to get you after a long time.
Pl find a quote from Gurbani for the word Ong as

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਆਪਹਿ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਸਰ ਹੋਆ ਨ ਹੋਗੁ ॥੧॥ ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਓਅੰ ਸਾਧ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੰ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਖ ਆਸਨ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਸਨ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਬਾਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਓ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥ ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਲਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 250}

In this quote you can see that the word "Ong Sadh SatiGur Namaskarang"
The word "Ong" in Gurmukhi script is without matra of AUKAD under its last letter so according to the Gurbani grammer the word is PLURAL(MasulineGender).The same word is SINGULAR (Feminine Gender)
So for making the word Ong SINGULAR(Masculine Gender) the Numerical number one is used before the word as the matra of Aukad can notbe applied to the last letter of the word.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,

You can see the word ONKAAR and ONKAAR(u) in SGGS ji.
Here the word ONKAAR(u) is SINGULAR(Masuline Gender) andthe word ONKAAR is PLURAL(Masculine Gender)  .

So there is no need of placing the word Ik before the word ONKAAR .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Hold on Prakash ji,
I just realized, Ong is not a word but a syllable. It is not surrounded by consonants. ਓਅੰ or ਓ or the sanskrit Ong. So how does grammar work on this?

You said ਓਅੰਕਾਰ is plural masculine, yet Bhagat Kabir uses it to mean a single God.

*ਓਅੰਕਾਰ* ਆਦਿ ਮੈ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
ओअंकार आदि मै जाना ॥
O▫ankār āḏ mai jānā.
I know only the One, the Universal Creator, the Primal Being.

ਲਿਖਿ ਅਰੁ ਮੇਟੈ ਤਾਹਿ ਨ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
लिखि अरु मेटै ताहि न माना ॥
Likẖ ar metai ṯāhi na mānā.
I do not believe in anyone whom the Lord writes and erases.

*ਓਅੰਕਾਰ* ਲਖੈ ਜਉ ਕੋਈ ॥
ओअंकार लखै जउ कोई ॥
O▫ankār lakẖai ja▫o ko▫ī.
If someone knows the One, the Universal Creator,

ਸੋਈ ਲਖਿ ਮੇਟਣਾ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
सोई लखि मेटणा न होई ॥६॥
So▫ī lakẖ metṇā na ho▫ī. ||6||
he shall not perish, since he knows Him. ||6||
pg 340 by Kabir

And what about when 'r' in Ongkar has a sihari: ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ?


----------



## Ambarsaria

Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your posts.

I humbly disagree with your statement on  *ੴ

 *The ੧ is not joined to "E-EAM[ > -kwr["

੧ ----> ਇੱਕ  and *it is not* Ek or ਏਕ  which is Devanagari/Hindi[/FONT]

Of course Ek or ਏਕ is a word in Punjabi with the meaning (One of or from one).  ੧ is unambiguously a number 1.
Hence *EK*ANKAAR is totally wrong.  I realize why you at one time wanted to see the two joined in paintings.  That will make it *EK*ANKAAR and unfortunately would have been contrary to Gurbani as written.

That only leaves it as stated  *ੴ (Ik▫oaŉkār)*
Sat Sri Akal. *
*


----------



## Ambarsaria

> *ਓਅੰ * ਸਾਧ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ  ॥
> 
> ओअं साध सतिगुर नमसकारं ॥
> 
> O▫aŉ sāḏẖ saṯgur namaskāraŉ.
> 
> *ONG:* I humbly bow in reverence to the One Universal Creator, to the Holy True Guru.
> 
> ਮੈਂ ਇਕ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਅਤੇ ਸੰਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੰਦਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ!
> 
> ਓਅੰ = ਹਿੰਦੀ ਦੀ ਵਰਨਮਾਲਾ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਅੱਖਰ।
> 
> ਸਾਡੀ ਉਸ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ-ਰੂਪ ਧਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ,


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=250&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&k=1

Prakash.s.bagga ji as in your post  referenced below,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37654-creator-god-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-masculine-feminine-what-4.html#post157128

Where a Hindi sounding word or actual Hindi word was expressed it was so written equivalently in Punjabi phonetics. 

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Tejwant Singh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Parkash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I still can not grasp your grammatical explanation but that is irrelevant at this point. Perhaps with time, I may be able to.

But my only question is how Ongkaar- The Source of all there is can be in plural form as there is only *One Source*?

Would appreciate, if you clarified it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,

If I consider your views then the word EK is not a word in Gurmukhi.
But I find IK and EK both words are there in Gurbani.However it would be interesting to understand the difference in the meanings of the words IK and EK.
There are several quotes in Gurbani with the word EK.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal,

Ek : For all the changes, the primal energy source is one which has never change
its state. The (GURU's BANI) experience  is beyond the creation of sun, which happens to cause of universe

O▫aŉ And then 

atoms which exist in three states of matter, (solid,liquid and gasses)

the change in states of matter, has been cause of life on earth

Imagine temperatures below zero everywhere or very high temperature
where the life frequency stands

In winters all fly dies or hides 
and 
again appear in spring

Grammar or Pronunciation not so clear, as the words are formed to
connect us with nature, 

Union of Shiv and Shakti , 

how conciousness of words connects us with truth of nature.

Its not on grammer or phonetics as subjective topic

but 

Objective of usage.

Every one and each word has appeared with objective and subjective

Basic alphabets are 34, from which whole vedas are formed
Basic elements are few, which forms life and support system

It is connecting to the basic, root or origins to dispell "EGO"


Understanding of this "I" stand no where and dispels "EGO"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
Well,There is an accepted Rule for Noun words to be SINGULAR or PLURAL according to Matra of AUKAD.The rule is that any Noun word with a matra of AUKAD under its last letter is considered SINGULAR common Noun and the word without matra of AUKAD under its last letter is PLURAL (Both for Masculine Gender )
If we apply this rule then the word OngKaar without matra of AUKAD underR is PLURAL(Masculine).The word as SINGULAR(Masculine) is written as ONGKaaR(u) with a matra of AUKAD under its letter R.(This as SINGULAR is given in the heading of Baanee Dakhanee OngKaaRu)
If you feel that the Rule of Gurbani grammer is wrong then I may be wrong.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> If I consider your views then the word EK is not a word in Gurmukhi.
> But I find IK and EK both words are there in Gurbani.However it would be interesting to understand the difference in the meanings of the words IK and EK.
> There are several quotes in Gurbani with the word EK.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga veer ji I did state about the word Ek as follows,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37654-creator-god-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-masculine-feminine-what-4.html#post157146



> ੧ ----> ਇੱਕ and *it is not* Ek or ਏਕ which is Devanagari/Hindi
> 
> Of course Ek or ਏਕ is a word in Punjabi with the meaning (*One of* or *from one*).
> 
> ੧ is unambiguously a number 1.


Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Tejwant ji and Prakash ji,
I was contemplating this. I think that the plural masculine word, Oankar, describes the source. As source is only a source if it gives rise to multiplicity. Without creating many how can there be one source? The one appears as many.

So it does not matter whether the word is plural or singular, as both would represent source equally well.

I don't think Oan has a masculine, feminine, singular, plural attached to it since it's not even a word or a noun for that matter.

Ambarsaria ji,
I cannot see fonts you have in your posts and on that Ikoankar thread. Which fonts are you using?


----------



## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> I cannot see fonts you have in your posts and on that Ikoankar thread. Which fonts are you using?


Bhagat Singh veer in the above post I checked in Word and these appears to be Raavi.  I wish there was some standard to use.  My Word seems to pick up from the source I cut and paste from.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Tejwant Singh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Parkash Singh ji & Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are right in the metaphorical sense but here we are talking about the grammar used in SGGS, our only Guru. To me, grammatically it makes no sense that The Source can be used in a plural or gender form with sihari, bihari, Aunkard and other lagah matras. In my understanding they are used as gender pronouns like teri and tera etc. etc. or as prepositions.

I would like to be educated deeply in this matter but one fact remains in SGGS as far as grammar is concerned and that is, The Source is only ONE. There is no other/s.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Ambarsaria

ravneet_sb ji some comments in blue,




ravneet_sb said:


> its state. _The (GURU's BANI) experience is beyond the creation of sun, which happens to cause of universe_
> _False, Sun got little to do with the Universe even if to be recognized as smallest of stars_
> 
> In winters all fly dies or hides
> 
> _False__
> __In winter, most of them survive in the larval or the pupal stage in some protected, warm location._
> _
> _
> Basic alphabets are 34, from which whole vedas are formed
> _What Vedas got to do with Sikhism Gurmat Vichaar as Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is self sufficient_


I know there is no harm in gaining knowledge from everywhere but you are unnecessarily glorifying vedas which actually are significantly discarded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  It could be separate topic but due to negative aspects perhaps not worth spending much time on.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

BHAGAT SINGHJi,

I do agree to your point that Singular or Plural Both represent the one  Source equally well But with a difference. The difference is related to the form of One Source for Singular or Plural.
When the Source is being refered as SIngular (Masculine) it is FORMLESS but when the Same Source is refered as PLURAL(Masculine) ,that One Source represents some Deifinite FORM (as A Tarang or Wave)
I think this should be an important aspect of understanding the reference meanings of different Noun words.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
I definitely differ in your views about the application of grammer in Gurbani.
Any way I have checked every Ang of SGGS ji I have not come across the pronunciation of Oankaar as IK Oankaar but there is clear cut message in Baanee Sukhmani wherein it is EKANKAAR being refered as IKu EKANKAAR.(Astapadee 10)
So what can be correct according to Gurbani this can be looked into.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your help and inputs and dialog, I am personally clarifying or learning a quite a bit.      





prakash.s.bagga said:


> When the Source is being refered as SIngular (Masculine) it is FORMLESS but when the Same Source is refered as PLURAL(Masculine) ,that One Source represents some Deifinite FORM _*(as A Tarang or Wave)*_


From the above, I have question regarding the _Tarang or Wave_ if you see it within the definition or meaning of ੴ as I don't.*

*I do know there are references in analogy or metaphor fashion to such in SGGS*.**

*Sat Sri Akal.*
*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
माझ महला ५ ॥
Mājẖ mėhlā 5.
Maajh, Fifth Mehl:

ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
सभ किछु घर महि बाहरि नाही ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ gẖar mėh bāhar nāhī.
Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond.

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਟੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਹੀ ॥
बाहरि टोलै सो भरमि भुलाही ॥
Bāhar tolai so bẖaram bẖulāhī.
One who searches outside is deluded by doubt.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
गुर परसादी जिनी अंतरि पाइआ सो अंतरि बाहरि सुहेला जीउ ॥१॥
Gur parsādī jinī anṯar pā▫i▫ā so anṯar bāhar suhelā jī▫o. ||1||
By Guru's Grace, one who has found the Lord within is happy, inwardly and outwardly. ||1||

ਝਿਮਿ ਝਿਮਿ ਵਰਸੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰਾ ॥
झिमि झिमि वरसै अम्रित धारा ॥
Jẖim jẖim varsai amriṯ ḏẖārā.
Slowly, gently, drop by drop, the stream of nectar trickles down within.

ਮਨੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
मनु पीवै सुनि सबदु बीचारा ॥
Man pīvai sun sabaḏ bīcẖārā.
The mind drinks it in, hearing and reflecting on the Word of the Shabad.

ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕਰੇ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
अनद बिनोद करे दिन राती सदा सदा हरि केला जीउ ॥२॥
Anaḏ binoḏ kare ḏin rāṯī saḏā saḏā har kelā jī▫o. ||2||
It enjoys bliss and ecstasy day and night, and plays with the Lord forever and ever. ||2||

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਾ ਵਿਛੁੜਿਆ ਮਿਲਿਆ ॥
जनम जनम का विछुड़िआ मिलिआ ॥
Janam janam kā vicẖẖuṛi▫ā mili▫ā.
I have now been united with the Lord after having been separated and cut off from Him for so many lifetimes;

ਸਾਧ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੂਕਾ ਹਰਿਆ ॥
साध क्रिपा ते सूका हरिआ ॥
Sāḏẖ kirpā ṯe sūkā hari▫ā.
by the Grace of the Holy Saint, the dried-up branches have blossomed forth again in their greenery.

ਸੁਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਏ ਮੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
सुमति पाए नामु धिआए गुरमुखि होए मेला जीउ ॥३॥
Sumaṯ pā▫e nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e gurmukẖ ho▫e melā jī▫o. ||3||
I have obtained this sublime understanding, and I meditate on the Naam; as Gurmukh, I have met the Lord. ||3||

ਜਲ *ਤਰੰਗੁ* ਜਿਉ ਜਲਹਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
जल *तरंगु* जिउ जलहि समाइआ ॥
Jal *ṯarang* ji▫o jalėh samā▫i▫ā.
As the *waves* of water merge again with the water,

ਤਿਉ ਜੋਤੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
तिउ जोती संगि जोति मिलाइआ ॥
Ŧi▫o joṯī sang joṯ milā▫i▫ā.
so does my light merge again into the Light.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕਟੇ ਕਿਵਾੜਾ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਹੋਈਐ ਜਉਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੨੬॥
कहु नानक भ्रम कटे किवाड़ा बहुड़ि न होईऐ जउला जीउ ॥४॥१९॥२६॥
Kaho Nānak bẖaram kate kivāṛā bahuṛ na ho▫ī▫ai ja▫ulā jī▫o. ||4||19||26||
Says Guru Nanak, the veil of illusion has been cut away, and I shall not go out wandering any more. ||4||19||26||

Guru Granth Sahib Page 102

Ambarsaria ji,
The idea is that all forms arise in and from formless like waves of the water arising from water. This will ring true if you take some time and meditate on it and allow the insight to come from a still mind.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,

Let us know what is Source of Pronunciation of the SYMBOL as Ik Oankaar.
I am fully open to accept if this is proved from Gurbani that Ik Oankaar is the actual and correct pronunciation of the SYMBOL.
Let us be very sincere in knowing this as this is the starting point of SGGS .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Veer Bhagat Singh ji I understand that but I don't want to have any waves in  ੴ or as I understand it.  If we don't understand the first number and the first Sanskrit word combo, we are in deep trouble  peacesign

I repeat my understanding of mool mantar below now that I got the key people looking at things,




> *ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥*
> 
> *ArQ:- * Akwl purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> God/creator is one and is known as the eternal being, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.



Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,
 *Ambarsaria Ji, *

What is written as subject matter, 
focus was on objective. 

Each word to be spelled has objective


Ved refrence was taken from "GURU's BANI" itself.






bayd puraan simrit sabh khojay kahoo na oobarnaa. 477-2

  I have searched all the Vedas, Puraanas and Simritees, but none of these can save anyone.
That ellaborate study is not required as already been done by "Guru's" 



  bayd katayb simrit sabh saasat inH parhi-aa mukat na ho-ee. 747-18

  One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.



  bayd paath sansaar kee kaar. 791-3

  Reading the Vedas is the world's occupation;
  Reading religious/ sacred books has come as occupation

Its all same, some original, some advanced.


  vaydaa meh naam utam so suneh naahee fireh ji-o baytaali-aa. 919-14

  In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.
Concise and preise bout vedas which one gets after reading whole vedas


  bayd baad sabh aakh vakaaneh. 1050-3

  He voices all the controversies of the Vedas,


Earlier people were occupied vedas as sikhs are occupied on discussios of
"GURU's BANI" literature as subjective discussion.
Purpose is peace and happiness for which 

"Naam Jap" and "Simran"  is the right way as prescribed in "GURU's BANI"



Please reject thoughts if wrote inappropriate  

Bhul Chuk Maaf 

  Whaeguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> Let us know what is Source of Pronunciation of the SYMBOL as Ik Oankaar.
> I am fully open to accept if this is proved from Gurbani that Ik Oankaar is the actual and correct pronunciation of the SYMBOL.
> Let us be very sincere in knowing this as this is the starting point of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga ji my source is Prof. Sahib Singh ji I have quoted in this thread.  Other than that it is what I learnt over the last as many years as I have lived mostly in Amritsar, UK, and Canada and through my parents.

My father was a Principal at Khalsa College Higher Secondary School Amritsar and my mother had completed Gyani level education.  My father was a Granthi after his retirement in India at the Shepherds Bush Gurdwara in UK where he looked after his grandson after the passing of my elder brother in UK.

I have nothing to gain out of this other than correct understanding if I can.

Sat Sri Akal.  mundahug


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## BhagatSingh

Ambarsaria ji,
True knowledge of Oan comes from meditation and Divine Grace.

Have a look at this wikipedia entry.


> The Katha Upanishad has:
> 
> _ "The goal, which all Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at, and which humans desire when they live a life of conscience, I will tell you briefly it is aum"
> "The one syllable [evākṣara, viz. aum] is indeed Brahman. This one syllable is the highest. Whosoever knows this one syllable obtains all that he desires.
> "This is the best support; this is the highest support. Whosoever knows this support is adored in the world of Brahma." (1.2.15-17)[5]_
> 
> The Chāndogya Upanishad (1.1.1-1) states:
> 
> _om ity-etad akṣaram udgītham upāsīta / aum iti hy udgāyati / tasyopavyākhyānam
> "The udgi:tā ["the chanting", that is, the syllable om] is the best of all essences, the highest, deserving the highest place, the eighth."_
> 
> The Bhagavad Gi:tā (8.13) states that:
> 
> _ Uttering the monosyllable Aum, the eternal world of Brahman, One who departs leaving the body (at death), he attains the Supereme Goal (i.e., he reaches God).
> 
> In Bhagavad Gi:tā (9.17): Lord Krishna says to Arjuna - "I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable Oḿ. I am also the Ṛig, the Sāma and the Yajur Vedas."_
> 
> The Bhagvad Gi:tā (17.23) has:
> 
> _ om tatsatiti nirdesho brahmanstrividhah samratah
> "OM, tat and sat has been declared as the triple appellation of Brahman, who is Truth, Consciousness and Bliss."_
> 
> In the following sūtra it emphasizes, "The repetition of Om should be made with an understanding of its meaning".[6]
> 
> In the book Om Chanting and Meditation Amit Ray states:
> 
> _ Om is not just a sound or vibration. It is not just a symbol. It is the entire cosmos, whatever we can see, touch, hear and feel. Moreover, it is all that is within our perception and all that is beyond our perception. It is the core of our very existence. If you think of Om only as a sound, a technique or a symbol of the Divine, you will miss it altogether. ..... Om is the mysterious cosmic energy that is the substratum of all the things and all the beings of the entire universe. It is an eternal song of the Divine. It is continuously resounding in silence on the background of everything that exists._ [7]



Brahman is not the caste from the caste system, it is ਬ੍ਰਹਮ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬ੍ਰਹਮ


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## Ambarsaria

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> *Ambarsaria Ji, *
> 
> bayd katayb simrit sabh saasat inH parhi-aa mukat na ho-ee. 747-18
> 
> One may read all the books of the Vedas, *the Bible*, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.
> 
> "Naam Jap" and "Simran"  is the right way as prescribed in "GURU's BANI"


ravneet_sb ji one liner quotes are really an abuse as you tell people to read the whole shabad themselves.  That is the bulk of the work and part of any sincere contribution.  I searched vedas at srigranth.org and there are 255 references in SGGS.  What is the point if I list those 255 entries?

On the one hand you questioned Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's transalation and now you are using a possible error by him (Bible) to prove something.  It is pretty counter-productive from my perspective and at least for my learning, perhaps others gain something.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Ambarsaria ji,
Kateb is translated as Bible in srigranth.org. It is pretty consistent across shabads.


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## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> True knowledge of Oan comes from meditation and Divine Grace.
> 
> Have a look at this wikipedia entry.


Bhagat Singh veer ji I am having hard enough time translating and understanding Sukhmani Sahib ji, why should I and what chance I have of doing so?  May be I am little traditional and once I mastered SGGS a respectful study of other stuff could follow.  Probability of such happening considering the variables of age, language and so on pretty much zero as I will not like to depend on translation without knowing original languages.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Kateb is translated as Bible in srigranth.org. It is pretty consistent across shabads.


Sorry that does not make it right as follows,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=329&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&k=1

Don't tell me that Jesus would not be mentioned in SGGS if Bible was mentioned.  Try looking for Jesus compared to Hari, Shiv, etc., .  Sat Sri Akal. 


> ਬੇਦ  ਕਤੇਬ  ਤੇ  ਰਹਹਿ  ਨਿਰਾਰਾ  ॥੩॥੩੧॥
> 
> बेद कतेब ते रहहि निरारा ॥३॥३१॥
> 
> Beḏ kaṯeb ṯe rahėh nirārā. ||3||31||
> 
> who remain detached from the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible. ||3||31||
> 
> ਜੋ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀ ਮਜ਼ਹਬੀ ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਅਟੰਕ ਵਿਚਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
> 
> ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਨਿਰਾਰਾ = ਨਿਰਾਲਾ, ਵੱਖਰਾ। ਰਹਹਿ = ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੩॥੩੧॥
> 
> ਵੇਦਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਤੇਬਾਂ (ਨੂੰ ਸੱਚੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਆਖਣ ਦੇ ਝਗੜੇ) ਤੋਂ ਵੱਖਰੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੩॥੩੧॥


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## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,If your Source of pronunciation is Prof Sahib Singh Ji then let us look at what Prof Sahib Singh Ji is telling

1..on page no 44  there Prof Sahib ji is clearly telling that Numerical Number One has been placed before the word Oang(Not before OankaaR)

I have considered this point in getting the Pronunciation as EKANKAAR.
and this word EKANKAAR  is very much there in SGGS .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Yes Ambarsaria ji, your efforts are praiseworthy. 
Studying is fine but as I have said before intellectual understanding only goes so far. After that it's all about direct perception which comes out of emotion and intuition. If you want to have Real knowledge of what Gurbani is talking about, of what Oan is, you have to meditate either in solitude or in congregations, in silence or in noise. Meditation is key.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:

ਸਹਜੈ ਨੋ ਸਭ ਲੋਚਦੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सहजै नो सभ लोचदी बिनु गुर पाइआ न जाइ ॥
Sahjai no sabẖ locẖḏī bin gur pā▫i▫ā na jā▫e.
Everyone longs to be centered and balanced, but without the Guru, no one can.

ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜੋਤਕੀ ਥਕੇ ਭੇਖੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥
पड़ि पड़ि पंडित जोतकी थके भेखी भरमि भुलाइ ॥
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ joṯkī thake bẖekẖī bẖaram bẖulā▫e.
The Pandits and the astrologers read and read until they grow weary, while the fanatics are deluded by doubt.

So will those who read and read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, without meditation.

ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਸਹਜੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਰਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
गुर भेटे सहजु पाइआ आपणी किरपा करे रजाइ ॥१॥
Gur bẖete sahj pā▫i▫ā āpṇī kirpā kare rajā▫e. ||1||
Meeting with the Guru, intuitive balance is obtained, when God, in His Will, grants His Grace. ||1||

Intuitive balance is obtained when the mind becomes still, which happens through Divine Grace.

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
भाई रे गुर बिनु सहजु न होइ ॥
Bẖā▫ī re gur bin sahj na ho▫e.
O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, intuitive balance is not obtained.

ਸਬਦੈ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸਹਜੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सबदै ही ते सहजु ऊपजै हरि पाइआ सचु सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sabḏai hī ṯe sahj ūpjai har pā▫i▫ā sacẖ so▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Through the Word of the Shabad, intuitive peace and poise wells up, and that True Lord is obtained. ||1||Pause||

Meditate on the words of the shabad...

ਸਹਜੇ ਗਾਵਿਆ ਥਾਇ ਪਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੈ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਾਦਿ ॥
सहजे गाविआ थाइ पवै बिनु सहजै कथनी बादि ॥
Sėhje gāvi▫ā thā▫e pavai bin sahjai kathnī bāḏ.
That which is sung intuitively is acceptable; without this intuition, all chanting is useless.

:sippingcoffeemunda:

ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਊਪਜੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ਬੈਰਾਗਿ ॥
सहजे ही भगति ऊपजै सहजि पिआरि बैरागि ॥
Sėhje hī bẖagaṯ ūpjai sahj pi▫ār bairāg.
In the state of intuitive balance, devotion wells up. In intuitive balance, love is balanced and detached.

:sippingcoffeemunda: 

ਸਹਜੈ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੈ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਬਾਦਿ ॥੨॥
सहजै ही ते सुख साति होइ बिनु सहजै जीवणु बादि ॥२॥
Sahjai hī ṯe sukẖ sāṯ ho▫e bin sahjai jīvaṇ bāḏ. ||2||
In the state of intuitive balance, peace and tranquility are produced. Without intuitive balance, life is useless. ||2||

ਸਹਜਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇ ॥
सहजि सालाही सदा सदा सहजि समाधि लगाइ ॥
Sahj sālāhī saḏā saḏā sahj samāḏẖ lagā▫e.
In the state of intuitive balance, praise the Lord forever and ever. With intuitive ease, embrace Samaadhi.

Go into a state of deep concentration, smadhi, within the mind (through meditation on praises of God), where the mind is still and satisfied with itself, as it, whatever it is, and there is no attachment or pull towards anything.

ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਗੁਣ ਊਚਰੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
सहजे ही गुण ऊचरै भगति करे लिव लाइ ॥
Sėhje hī guṇ ūcẖrai bẖagaṯ kare liv lā▫e.
In the state of intuitive balance, chant His Glories, lovingly absorbed in devotional worship.

ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਰਸਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੩॥
सबदे ही हरि मनि वसै रसना हरि रसु खाइ ॥३॥
Sabḏe hī har man vasai rasnā har ras kẖā▫e. ||3||
Through the Shabad, the Lord dwells within the mind, and the tongue tastes the Sublime Essence of the Lord. ||3||

ਸਹਜੇ ਕਾਲੁ ਵਿਡਾਰਿਆ ਸਚ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਪਾਇ ॥
सहजे कालु विडारिआ सच सरणाई पाइ ॥
Sėhje kāl vidāri▫ā sacẖ sarṇā▫ī pā▫e.
In the poise of intuitive balance, death is destroyed, entering the Sanctuary of the True One.

ਸਹਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
सहजे हरि नामु मनि वसिआ सची कार कमाइ ॥
Sėhje har nām man vasi▫ā sacẖī kār kamā▫e.
Intuitively balanced, the Name of the Lord dwells within the mind, practicing the lifestyle of Truth.

ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਹਜੇ ਰਹੇ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥
से वडभागी जिनी पाइआ सहजे रहे समाइ ॥४॥
Se vadbẖāgī jinī pā▫i▫ā sėhje rahe samā▫e. ||4||
Those who have found Him are very fortunate; they remain intuitively absorbed in Him. ||4||

ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਊਪਜੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
माइआ विचि सहजु न ऊपजै माइआ दूजै भाइ ॥
Mā▫i▫ā vicẖ sahj na ūpjai mā▫i▫ā ḏūjai bẖā▫e.
Within Maya, the poise of intuitive balance is not produced. Maya leads to the love of duality.

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਲੈ ਜਲਾਇ ॥
मनमुख करम कमावणे हउमै जलै जलाइ ॥
Manmukẖ karam kamāvṇe ha▫umai jalai jalā▫e.
The self-willed manmukhs perform religious rituals, but they are burnt down by their selfishness and conceit.

ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਚੂਕਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥
जमणु मरणु न चूकई फिरि फिरि आवै जाइ ॥५॥
Jamaṇ maraṇ na cẖūk▫ī fir fir āvai jā▫e. ||5||
Their births and deaths do not cease; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation. ||5||

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥
त्रिहु गुणा विचि सहजु न पाईऐ त्रै गुण भरमि भुलाइ ॥
Ŧarihu guṇā vicẖ sahj na pā▫ī▫ai ṯarai guṇ bẖaram bẖulā▫e.
In the three qualities, intuitive balance is not obtained; the three qualities lead to delusion and doubt.

The three qualities are sattva (seeking truth), rajas (having passion and willpower) and tamas (laziness). People have varying amounts of these three qualities in them.

ਪੜੀਐ ਗੁਣੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਮੁੰਢਹੁ ਘੁਥਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
पड़ीऐ गुणीऐ किआ कथीऐ जा मुंढहु घुथा जाइ ॥
Paṛī▫ai guṇī▫ai ki▫ā kathī▫ai jā mundẖhu gẖuthā jā▫e.
What is the point of reading, studying and debating, if one loses his roots?

What is the point of reading, studying and debating, if one forgets his essence? That is what is the point if you do not meditate (go deep into the essence i.e. smadhi).

ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਮਹਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥੬॥
चउथे पद महि सहजु है गुरमुखि पलै पाइ ॥६॥
Cẖa▫uthe paḏ mėh sahj hai gurmukẖ palai pā▫e. ||6||
In the fourth state, there is intuitive balance; the Gurmukhs gather it in. ||6||

Cultivate a still mind.

ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
निरगुण नामु निधानु है सहजे सोझी होइ ॥
Nirguṇ nām niḏẖān hai sėhje sojẖī ho▫e.
The Naam, the Name of the Formless Lord, is the treasure. Through intuitive balance, understanding is obtained.

ਗੁਣਵੰਤੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਿਆ ਸਚੇ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
गुणवंती सालाहिआ सचे सची सोइ ॥
Guṇvanṯī salāhi▫ā sacẖe sacẖī so▫e.
The virtuous praise the True One; their reputation is true.

ਭੁਲਿਆ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਸੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੭॥
भुलिआ सहजि मिलाइसी सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥७॥
Bẖuli▫ā sahj milā▫isī sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e. ||7||
The wayward are united with God through intuitive balance; through the Shabad, union is obtained. ||7||

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਅੰਧੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥
बिनु सहजै सभु अंधु है माइआ मोहु गुबारु ॥
Bin sahjai sabẖ anḏẖ hai mā▫i▫ā moh gubār.
Without intuitive balance, all are blind. Emotional attachment to Maya is utter darkness.

ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਈ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਅਪਾਰਿ ॥
सहजे ही सोझी पई सचै सबदि अपारि ॥
Sėhje hī sojẖī pa▫ī sacẖai sabaḏ apār.
In intuitive balance, understanding of the True, Infinite Shabad is obtained.

ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥੮॥
आपे बखसि मिलाइअनु पूरे गुर करतारि ॥८॥
Āpe bakẖas milā▫i▫an pūre gur karṯār. ||8||
Granting forgiveness, the Perfect Guru unites us with the Creator. ||8||

ਸਹਜੇ ਅਦਿਸਟੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
सहजे अदिसटु पछाणीऐ निरभउ जोति निरंकारु ॥
Sėhje aḏisat pacẖẖāṇī▫ai nirbẖa▫o joṯ nirankār.
In intuitive balance, the Unseen is recognized-the Fearless, Luminous, Formless Lord.

:sippingcoffeemunda: Direct perception!

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
सभना जीआ का इकु दाता जोती जोति मिलावणहारु ॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā joṯī joṯ milāvaṇhār.
There is only the One Giver of all beings. He blends our light with His Light.

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੯॥
पूरै सबदि सलाहीऐ जिस दा अंतु न पारावारु ॥९॥
Pūrai sabaḏ salāhī▫ai jis ḏā anṯ na pārāvār. ||9||
So praise God through the Perfect Word of His Shabad; He has no end or limitation. ||9||

ਗਿਆਨੀਆ ਕਾ ਧਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
गिआनीआ का धनु नामु है सहजि करहि वापारु ॥
Gi▫ānī▫ā kā ḏẖan nām hai sahj karahi vāpār.
Those who are wise take the Naam as their wealth; with intuitive ease, they trade with Him.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈਨਿ ਅਖੁਟ ਭਰੇ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥
अनदिनु लाहा हरि नामु लैनि अखुट भरे भंडार ॥
An▫ḏin lāhā har nām lain akẖut bẖare bẖandār.
Night and day, they receive the Profit of the Lord's Name, which is an inexhaustible and over-flowing treasure.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਦੀਏ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰਿ ॥੧੦॥੬॥੨੩॥
नानक तोटि न आवई दीए देवणहारि ॥१०॥६॥२३॥
Nānak ṯot na āvī ḏī▫e ḏevaṇhār. ||10||6||23||
O Guru Nanak, when the Great Giver gives, nothing at all is lacking. ||10||6||23||


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

Bhagat Singh Ji, immediate thoughts I am writting 

Every existence (living or non living/ animated or non animated) has atom as base.
Connecting to the syllable

Energy governs three states, for an atom.
And flow of energy belongs to nature.

One can understand the flow

Desire born with light  
Thought has air/ 
It connects with liquid/ 
Needs for material 


Form may exist as
As Solid (Lower Energy Formation)
As Liquid 
As Gas (Higher Energy Formation)

Choice and Understanding role of higher formations/ existence/ and sustainability is important

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

RAVNEET SINGH sb,
Gurbani is telling about SINGLE STATE OF THE MATTER which is the Source and Cause of Trinity (Three states of the visible matter) character of the Universe.
We should learn from Gurbani about this SINGLE STATE Of THE MATTER>
More clearly the SINGLE STATE OF THE MATTER is described by Divine words in terms of NAAMu.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

The fact is that Sant Singh Khalsa's literal translation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, is not only very distorting but insulting to our visionary Gurus.

I have mentioned the same in many of my posts in this forum and also shown the blatant distortions.

It is rather futile if we just depend on the literal translations of the authors for our understanding of the Shabad Guru without counter checking with the interpretations by the others in Gurmukhi like Prof. Sahib Singh- the best so far- and then make up our mind.

Literal translations are NOT interpretations. No one can do justice to any poetry through literal translations.They are what the name states. Each word translated literally without focusing on the  understanding of the whole. Nothing more.

This beautiful poetry in the SGGS, our only Guru has to be lived in  prose in our real lives as urged by our Gurus, which is the life of Miri-Piri. 

Unfortunately, literal translations do not have the tools to offer that. At best, they can be called mere indicators to delve deeper in the understanding of Gurbani. This is the reason I urge all to express the Gurbani in prose with their own thoughts beside copying and pasting the whole shabads or one liners. The latter is a big NO NO and an insult which does not help us to understand Gurbani with its full potential that it offers.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Gurfatehji

I read yesterdays Hukamnama with interest, the translation did not make a huge amount of sense, so I attempted to read the original, it was a mind opener, it is written like a best friend trying to guide you, not a father, or a mother, not patronising, not an order, but simply a mate, telling you in very simple terms, what its all about, although I missed a few words, it made much much more sense than the english translation, 

We need to move away from a reliance on others translations, although where the language is not Punjabi, that is easier said than done. 

Its funny, but you can even sense when 'matey' playfully slaps the back of your head and smiles at you, and also when 'matey' realises you have got it, and ruffles your hair

You cannot get that from the english, the reading in its natural state provides a completely different experience like the difference between an aircraft simulator and the real thing


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## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> Let us know what is Source of Pronunciation of the SYMBOL as Ik Oankaar.
> I am fully open to accept if this is proved from Gurbani that Ik Oankaar is the actual and correct pronunciation of the SYMBOL.
> Let us be very sincere in knowing this as this is the starting point of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga ji I have no further interest to further interpret what a given author has clearly determined after reviewing own understanding as Prof. Sahib Singh ji has and it is posted in the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37654-creator-god-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-masculine-feminine-what-4.html#post157126

As well as in the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html

The quoted conclusion from Prof. Sahib Singh ji,


> eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
> *so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr"* Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[



I accept Prof. Sahib Singh ji's interpretation as correct to best of my knowledge and experience.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Harry ji
My name comes from that Hukumnama (the Sikhnet one). 

ਭਗਤਿ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ਨਾਉ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
भगति खजाना भगतन कउ दीआ नाउ हरि धनु सचु सोइ ॥
Bẖagaṯ kẖajānā bẖagṯan ka▫o ḏī▫ā nā▫o har ḏẖan sacẖ so▫e.
The True Lord has blessed His devotees with the treasure of devotional worship, and the wealth of the Lord's Name.

...and that answers my question on siharis. If there is a sihari at the end of a noun, in this case Bhagat, then it makes it a verb. Bhagat(i) is what a Bhagat does, that is, devotional worship. Bhagat is plural, whereas Bhagat(u) is singular.

You always learn more when it's about you. icecreammunda


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## Tejwant Singh

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji
> My name comes from that Hukumnama (the Sikhnet one).
> 
> ਭਗਤਿ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ਨਾਉ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
> भगति खजाना भगतन कउ दीआ नाउ हरि धनु सचु सोइ ॥
> Bẖagaṯ kẖajānā bẖagṯan ka▫o ḏī▫ā nā▫o har ḏẖan sacẖ so▫e.
> The True Lord has blessed His devotees with the treasure of devotional worship, and the wealth of the Lord's Name.
> 
> ...and that answers my question on siharis. If there is a sihari at the end of a noun, in this case Bhagat, then it makes it a verb. Bhagat(i) is what a Bhagat does, that is, devotional worship. Bhagat is plural, whereas Bhagat(u) is singular.
> 
> You always learn more when it's about you. icecreammunda



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have a different take on this one. 

Allow me to pitch in my 2 cent worth.

ਭਗਤਿ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ਨਾਉ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥

*The Sihari* in Bhagat- the first word- makes it a preposition not a verb which means the treasure given *to* the Bhagats/ਭਗਤਨ. In other words, the treasure *of* the ਭਗਤਨ.  The verb in the above is *ਦੀਆ* and *ਭਗਤਨ*  is plural not a singular.

*ਭਗਤਿ ਖਜਾਨਾ* becomes a compound noun with preposition because of the sihari.


----------



## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji
> My name comes from that Hukumnama (the Sikhnet one).
> 
> ਭਗਤਿ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ਨਾਉ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
> भगति खजाना भगतन कउ दीआ नाउ हरि धनु सचु सोइ ॥
> Bẖagaṯ kẖajānā bẖagṯan ka▫o ḏī▫ā nā▫o har ḏẖan sacẖ so▫e.
> The True Lord has blessed His devotees with the treasure of devotional worship, and the wealth of the Lord's Name.
> 
> ...and that answers my question on siharis. If there is a sihari at the end of a noun, in this case Bhagat, then it makes it a verb. Bhagat(i) is what a Bhagat does, that is, devotional worship. Bhagat is plural, whereas Bhagat(u) is singular.
> 
> You always learn more when it's about you. icecreammunda



Veer Bhagat Singh ji the following some comments,

ਭਗਤਿ  --->  Bhagat _eh (with little emphasis on h)  --->  to the Bhagats_

ਭਗਤੀ  --->  Bhagat _ee  ---> Contemplation done by Bhagat_

ਭਗਤੁ   --->  Bhagat _oh (with little emphasis on h)_  --->  Do contemplation !

ਭਗਤੋ   --->  Bhagat _OH _--->  Addressing Bhagats !

ਭਗਤ   --->  Our veer Bhagat Singh  --->  One recognized as a contemplator

Let us see how the red ones can be verified to be true in my translation.  I could not get to SriGranth.org.   

Any comments!

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

I am also waiting for srigranth.org 
Before srigranth went down, I did look up bhagat(u), it is singular of bhagat (plural).

In the meanwhile I figured out what you were quoting and where you were quoting from. I got the fonts but it appears the fonts used in the thread are not the same.

EDIT:
srigranth is up. Bhagat(i) means the same thing as Bhagatee.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਗਤਿ

Also it is still pronounced Bhagat apparently. Not Bhagat eh.

ਭਗਤੋ is not used in Gurbani.


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sorry Bhagat Singh ji my fonts are all mixed up as I try to cut and paste and sometimes the Word program and does its magic and changes and when I post to SPN the Web posting does its magic and changes it.  So I get lost and perhaps many others do it too.

Is there something you recommend that transparently cleans it up?  I know Srigranth.org cut and paste always works good.

I don't know if you aware of the following pretty neat tool from Punjabi University in Patiala I believe,

http://pgc.learnpunjabi.org/

Root = ਭਗਤ
(Tag: NNMSD; WordClass: Noun; Gender: Masculine; Number: Singular; Case: Direct
(Tag: NNMSO; WordClass: Noun; Gender: Masculine; Number: Singular; Case: Oblique
(Tag: NNMPD; WordClass: Noun; Gender: Masculine; Number: Plural; Case: Direct

Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Ambarsaria ji,
Installing Raavi didn't do it but when I pasted your quote in Word it showed Web Akhar. I got those and it worked.

I think you might have missed this in a previous reply.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ is not Brahma (though it encapsulates Brahma) but Brahman, the ultimate reality.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬ੍ਰਹਮ

Ong is Brahman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman 



Prakash ji,


prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> Let us know what is Source of Pronunciation of the SYMBOL as Ik Oankaar.
> I am fully open to accept if this is proved from Gurbani that Ik Oankaar is the actual and correct pronunciation of the SYMBOL.
> Let us be very sincere in knowing this as this is the starting point of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Why does the pronounciation matter?


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well it is your choice to accept anything but I am not prepared for.. anything out of Gurbani.
.This difference of understanding is always going to stay.Till 1990 I also had the same understanding as yours but after getting confirmed from SGGS that there is no such message like IK Onkaar this changed tmy whole way of Gurbani understanding.
I am never adamant on any point so far Gurbani is concerned.Once a Gursikh from Canada pointed out a common mistake I have been making I immediately realised the fact and changed my views since then.
My concern is only that why any thing which is not a part of SGGS  should be accepted.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> Why does the pronunciation matter?


_Bhagat Singh ji there is quite a difference in the following as presented by Prakash Singh Bagga ji as Combination A or Combination B,_




> COMBINATION  A....Here Numerical Number is taken as IKas separate and word Ong is combined with KaaR to get as Oankaar.
> We write this as IK Oankaar as the pronunciation and give meaning accordingly.
> 
> COMBINATION .B...Here Numerical Number can be along withword Ong as EKONg and Kaar can be taken as separate to get as EKANKAAR.


_The Sanskrit composite word that follows ੧ is subject to scholarly pursuits and analysis.  Such analysis impacts the meaning of  _*ੴ*.
*COMBINATION  A: * As per Prof. Sahib Singh ji,



> eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
> *so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr"* Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[



Combination B:  As per Prakash.s.bagga ji as EKANKAAR from my limited knowledge translates to the following,


> EKANKAAR  --->  One who does all or creates all


There is a huge difference in Combination B as it becomes a single entity in control and Combination A it is single entity present in all.  Combination B leads to persons, concepts of a self, a persona or such creating all whereas in Combination A the creator is integral part of all creation and hence no one can be called a deity as a creator, a person as a creator, a persona as a creator,  or a specific system as a creator.

Combination A preserves equality of all and creator/creation being one.  

Combination B becomes Abrahamanic, Hinduism and such with assignment of superior and specific persona, a specific system, a specific order of one creating/controlling and others following or being under control, etc.

I reject combination B in reference to combination A as per Prof. Sahib Singh ji.

I stand corrected though but I share for discourse.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> _Bhagat Singh ji there is quite a difference in the following as presented by Prakash Singh Bagga ji as Combination A or Combination B,_
> 
> 
> _The Sanskrit composite word that follows ੧ is subject to scholarly pursuits and analysis. Such analysis impacts the meaning of _*ੴ*.
> *COMBINATION A: *As per Prof. Sahib Singh ji,
> 
> 
> Combination B: As per Prakash.s.bagga ji as EKANKAAR from my limited knowledge translates to the following,
> There is a huge difference in Combination B as it becomes a single entity in control and Combination A it is single entity present in all. Combination B leads to persons, concepts of a self, a persona or such creating all whereas in Combination A the creator is integral part of all creation and hence no one can be called a deity as a creator, a person as a creator, a persona as a creator, or a specific system as a creator.
> 
> Combination A preserves equality of all and creator/creation being one.
> 
> Combination B becomes Abrahamanic, Hinduism and such with assignment of superior and specific persona, a specific system, a specific order of one creating/controlling and others following or being under control, etc.
> 
> I reject combination B in reference to combination A as per Prof. Sahib Singh ji.
> 
> I stand corrected though but I share for discourse.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I think you are taking  Prof Sahib Singh ji for guaranted whereas I consider 
SGGS as guaranted.
Secondly the explanation of combination B is your own.I am yet to come with my views on the explanation of combination B.
I dont mind having rejected any combination.But I am surprised at your unilateral decision on the combination B.
I would still look forward to any of Quote from Gurbani mentioning combination A as IK ONkAAR but for sure you can see the message of Gurbani as EKANKAAR combination B thru the whole of SGGS .
At the moment I can say nothing more than this.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> I think you are taking  Prof Sahib Singh ji for guaranted whereas I consider
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as guaranted.
> Secondly the explanation of combination B is your own.I am yet to come with my views on the explanation of combination B.
> I dont mind having rejected any combination._But I am surprised at your unilateral decision on the combination B._
> I would still look forward to any of Quote from Gurbani mentioning combination A as IK ONkAAR but for sure you can see the message of Gurbani as EKANKAAR combination B thru the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> At the moment I can say nothing more than this.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga ji the above is just my opinion as yours is to accept and mine is to reject.  No hard feelings or dis-respect at all just that it does not make sense to me.  Of course Ekankaar as appropriate is used as well as derivatives of Kaar.  Why *ੴ* was not used everywhere is equally important versus Ekankaar.
I accept Prof. Sahib Singh ji's discourse as complete and specific and I so respectfully accept his explanation for *ੴ* .  I personally do not accept all blindly but with due consideration and sounding of my heart and mind.
 
You have not shared why you were convinced by a person in Canada to believe in Ekankaar perhaps it may be helpful in this dialog if you wish to share.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.s.bagga ji the above is just my opinion as yours is to accept and mine is to reject. No hard feelings or dis-respect at all just that it does not make sense to me. Of course Ekankaar as appropriate is used as well as derivatives of Kaar. Why *ੴ* was not used everywhere is equally important versus Ekankaar.
> I accept Prof. Sahib Singh ji's discourse as complete and specific and I so respectfully accept his explanation for *ੴ*. I personally do not accept all blindly but with due consideration and sounding of my heart and mind.
> 
> You have not shared why you were convinced by a person in Canada to believe in Ekankaar perhaps it may be helpful in this dialog if you wish to share.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,
When did I write that I was ever convined by a person from Canada to beleive in EKANKAAR.I simply refered to a simple mistake I was committing.
Here again your own assumption.
I think only SGGS can make anyone to believe in EKANKAAR not any person.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> When did I write that I was ever convined by a person from Canada to beleive in EKANKAAR.I simply refered to a simple mistake I was committing.


Sorry Prakash.s.bagga veer ji I took the following to mean that the person would have explained why Ekankaar was right based on your following statement versus what you were understanding of before,



> Once a Gursikh from Canada pointed out a common mistake I have been  making I immediately realised the fact and changed my views since then.


I simply read it differently perhaps not what you meant in this.

 I am simply trying to learn and am as interested in learning about EKANKAAR as I am about Ik oankaar.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Two discourses on ੴ and ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ by Prof. Sahib Singh ji,

1.   *"ੴ"* ਦਾ ਉੱਚਾਰਨ ਹੈ " ਇਕ (ਏਕ) ਓਅੰਕਾਰ" ਅਤੇ ਇਸਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ "ਇਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ, ਜੋ ਇਕ-ਰਸ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੈ"

2.   *ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ* = ਇਕ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ

I hope this helps as there is quite a distinction and distinctive application and one is not the same as other or can be used one for the other.

If it helps in the discourse.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I am sure by the grace of SatiGuRu ji  you will get to know what you may be looking for.
I strongly believe only Sati GuRu can gude anyone for his complete understanding.
We can only share that together for our own and also for others benifits.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal

I am in total agreement with Ambarsaria Ji that pronunciation while reciting is important once we have the concept of one creator and the states.

Say word Ik   IIIK  Ikkk  although we are reciting Ik but the length of pronunciation
produce different feeling  as 

Ke questioned
Keeee exclaimed / challanged opinion

Ik is resolved,  Kar or Kaar is resolved

O  M  or O U M,  O  A N ,  O A N G is not resolved

Pronunciation as objective, while recitation is important.

To my opinion

Sound is vibration, electrons are always in motion in an atom, and there is sound in 
basic form.

And it relates to sound of atom.

One is unable to hear as the higher frequency sound interference.
In total silence, one may hear this sound.

Just like if loudspeakers are on one can not listen to near by person
So outside higher ferquency causes interference

If we recite the syllable in correct form, it has resonating effect in our body system

Resonance as explaines as referred from wikipedia

*resonance* is the tendency of a system to oscillate at a greater amplitude at some frequencies than at others. These are known as the system's *resonant frequencies* (or _resonance frequencies_). At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations, because the system stores vibrational energy. Resonance occurs when a system is able to store and easily transfer energy between two or more different storage modes (such as kinetic energy and potential energy in the case of a pendulum). However, there are some losses from cycle to cycle, called damping. When damping is small, the resonant frequency is approximately equal to the natural frequency of the system, which is a frequency of unforced vibrations. Some systems have multiple, distinct, resonant frequencies.
 Resonance phenomena occur with all types of vibrations or waves: there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), electron spin resonance (ESR) and resonance of quantum wave functions. Resonant systems can be used to generate vibrations at a specific frequency (e.g. musical instruments), or pick out specific frequencies from a complex vibration containing many frequencies (e.g. filters).

So pronunciation and correct recitation is very very important.

Once each word is realised as a subject and objecive of usage, the sense is different.


90% of Religious Pray Performers while attending religious cermony say

Jo Prabh Ko MILBOCH Hain, khoj shabad mein lay

Jo Prabh Ko Milbo Chahain, Khoj Sahbad Mein Lay

Right Spell makes difference 

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Two discourses on ੴ and ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ by Prof. Sahib Singh ji,
> 
> 1. *"ੴ"* ਦਾ ਉੱਚਾਰਨ ਹੈ " ਇਕ (ਏਕ) ਓਅੰਕਾਰ" ਅਤੇ ਇਸਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ "ਇਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ, ਜੋ ਇਕ-ਰਸ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੈ"
> 
> 2. *ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ* = ਇਕ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ
> 
> I hope this helps as there is quite a distinction and distinctive application and one is not the same as other or can be used one for the other.
> 
> If it helps in the discourse.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,
You can find that in Vol 3 page no610 Teeka by Prof Sahib Singh ji,
Here Pfof Sahib Singh ji is telling clearly that the word EKANKAAR too is Pronunciation for the SYMBOL which appears in SGGS .
So according to above there should be no distiction and distinctive application as both are same.
Now you can see for yourself what should right.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal
> 
> Ik is resolved,  Kar or Kaar is resolved
> 
> _O  M  or O U M,  O  A N ,  O A N G is not resolved_
> 
> _*FALSE*_


ravneet_sb ji there is no dispute about individual parts and how they sound.  

" ਇਕ (ਏਕ) ਓਅੰ ਕਾਰ"
The question simply is what association exists and if it is to be sounded as one word.  I see absolutely no justification to combine two words (one Punjabi number and a Sanskrit word and make it into some new word).

Please let us discuss it in the following thread if needed,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html

We are spending to much time out of focus to the subject of the thread.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Sat Sri Akaal,

It is separate but in union. Energy and Mass in an atom


It is represented as yollk and albumen of egg though separate but contained in same shell in later

One may reject or accept though.

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> It is separate but in union. Energy and Mass in an atom
> 
> 
> It is represented as yollk and albumen of egg though separate but contained in same shell in later
> 
> One may reject or accept though.
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


 
RAVNEET sb ji,
Mass and Energy are in union in an atom but they are convertible.In a non active state of Mass the Energy is in a STATE ofPOTENTIAL .When the same Mass gets activated the Energy is in a STATE of KINETIC.
Thus it is important to understand the process of ACTIVATION and the States of Energy.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Dear SPN Ji,

Thanks for valuable tip

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

At last we can see that CREATOR or RABB in Gurbani is neither Masculine nor Feminine .
Even the Singular Noun words refer to the the COLLECTIVE NOUN of CREATOR or RABB
Prakash.S.Bagga.


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> At last we can see that CREATOR or RABB in Gurbani is neither Masculine nor Feminine .
> Even the Singular Noun words refer to the the COLLECTIVE NOUN of CREATOR or RABB
> Prakash.S.Bagga.


Prakash.s.bagga veer ji that answers my question in this thread.  I had the same conclusion but I wanted comments and vetting from some of the contributors I respect.  You are right there with Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, spnadmin ji, Tejwant Singh ji in terms of Gurbani Vichhar.


> *If I may so summarize: *The creator's Gender is of no consequence as it may appear in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji other than for helping us understand in simple human terms the interactions scenarios with the creator, creator's virtues and thus leading to one creator's understanding throughout our lives.



Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## ravneet_sb

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

SAT SRI AKAAL,

One may interact/comment/accept or reject the thought

Ik represents the cosmic energy

O represents the higher state gas state in which the action exist but particle ause of action can not be defined "O Kar" O Kar

A  represents the higher state in which the action exist but particle ause of action can not be defined "A kar" A Kar

 represents the higher state in which the action exist but particle cause of action can not be defined "M kar" Main Kar


But understanding the forth state event the matter 
what we realise is the form of energy

So there are four state in which one can realise different form of energy.
hared the

My sincere thanks to allmighty and all* Aman Singh Ji*, *Ambarsaria Ji*, *BhagatSingh Ji*, *charanjyot Ji*, *harry haller Ji*, *japjisahib04 Ji*, *jasbirkaleka Ji*, *Kanwaljit Singh Ji*, *Kaur 1968 Ji*, *prakash.s.bagga Ji*, *Randeep Kaur Ji*, http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/37654-creator-god-sggs-masculine-feminine-what-10.html# *sandeep17oct JI*, *Scarlet Pimpernel Ji*, *Searching Ji*, *Taranjeet singh Ji*, *Tejwant Singh JI* who have interacted and shared the divine knowledge on the topic.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## Ambarsaria

ravneet_sb said:


> SAT SRI AKAAL,
> 
> One may interact/comment/accept or reject the thought
> 
> Ik represents the cosmic energy
> 
> O represents the higher state gas state in which the action exist but particle ause of action can not be defined "O Kar" O Kar
> 
> A  represents the higher state in which the action exist but particle ause of action can not be defined "A kar" A Kar
> 
> represents the higher state in which the action exist but particle cause of action can not be defined "M kar" Main Kar
> 
> 
> But understanding the forth state event the matter
> what we realise is the form of energy
> 
> So there are four state in which one can realise different form of energy.
> hared the
> 
> My sincere thanks to allmighty and all* Aman Singh Ji*, *Ambarsaria Ji*, *BhagatSingh Ji*, *charanjyot Ji*, *harry haller Ji*, *japjisahib04 Ji*, *jasbirkaleka Ji*, *Kanwaljit Singh Ji*, *Kaur 1968 Ji*, *prakash.s.bagga Ji*, *Randeep Kaur Ji*,  *sandeep17oct JI*, *Scarlet Pimpernel Ji*, *Searching Ji*, *Taranjeet singh Ji*, *Tejwant Singh JI* who have interacted and shared the divine knowledge on the topic.
> 
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


ravneet_sb ji I have no clue what you are talking about and how such is related to SGGS or Gurmat Vichhar.  May be I am missing something.  Creating confusion is another way of making things in-effective.  So I don't understand what you mean and 3/4s in most of your posts are ramblings past one or two sentences/words/tuks of Gurbani.

I highly suggest a thread in another section (say Interfaith, Science or Leisure) and I can also write or contribute towards such wandering thoughts, etc.

Sorry no offense but please help/comment as per the thread topic as much as you can.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

I think Ravneetji and Prakashji are bursting so much with energy it is hard/frustrating for them to get the message they are trying to, across................

Actually I would pay good money to see them debate against each other! lol


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

HARRY HALLAR ji,
I am not surprised at the offer for your money.Many many thanks for your offer.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLAR ji,
> I am not surprised at the offer for your money.Many many thanks for your offer.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Little off topic but Prakash.s.bagga ji isn't it funny who have Maya (or at least one part of it, Money) are studying to get rid of it, your good self.  Those who don't have Maya (money like me not working right now) need it mundahug

Let us see if the one's trying to get rid of it meet up with the ones who want/need it (me).  Rest is talk lol.  This is straight Jatt logic. mundahug

Let me tell you a little snippet as below,



> I was going to Guru Nanak Engineering College, Ludhiana way back before I went to UK.  Me and one of my friends used to go occasionally to Ludhiana downtown, see scenery, have Jalebis and milk, etc.  In younger age many are Socialist oriented.  So this friend was like that.  We were in a Rickshaw and he started talking about it.  I put it clearly to him as,
> 
> Listen the rickshaw puller looks like an older man.  You are strong.  Why don't we stop the rickshaw and you seat him and start pulling.  Not only that let us instead of drinking milk and eating jalebis (yummy hot) give him the money in exchange.
> 
> Never did he talk again about how poor need to be looked after or the way poor are treated by the rich.
> 
> By the way neither of us were very rich but we could afford more than average.  He continued to be a good friend.


Sat Sri Akal


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

AMBARSARIA ji,
I didi not mind his offer for money .In fact I felt elated to know there is someone so close to vlalue me .May be out of affection but it is a sense of pleasure .Nothing beyond this.
I judge Harry Hallar ji a person of matured views.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA ji,
> I didi not mind his offer for money .In fact I felt elated to know there is someone so close to vlalue me .May be out of affection but it is a sense of pleasure .Nothing beyond this.
> I judge Harry Hallar ji a person of matured views.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga ji I value you just as much but no money as I know you once told me you are blessed that way.  

I have always been happy to see success.  I have been very very Happy to specially see Sikhs with worldly success all around the world.  People have what they have and I never have a tinge of jealousy.  Each is blessed in their own ways and that is creation.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Ambersariaji, 

Everything is relative, some men of huge wealth feel poor next to a man who owns his own jet, whereas I personally feel rich if the animals are fed, and there is a full tank of petrol in the car, I think if being rich was a motivating factor for any of us, we would be rich, but as it happens, we prefer to use our energies for the riches that cannot be seen. 

I will now leave the four yorkshire men joke to SPji, who I am sure will enjoy telling it to all those that are unaware of it


----------



## Tejwant Singh

harry haller said:


> I think Ravneetji and Prakashji are bursting so much with energy it is hard/frustrating for them to get the message they are trying to, across................
> 
> Actually I would pay good money to see them debate against each other! lol



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Just tighten the ropes of the octagon.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Monty Python - Four Yorkshiremen      - YouTube


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Ahahaha! Scarlet ji,
That's a good example of what is * not* a ਗਰੀਬ mind.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*



> That's a good example of what is *not* a ਗਰੀਬ mind.


 
Thanks must go to Harry Ji for reminding me of it,I guess it goes to show that one can even be 'proud' of ones 'poverty'.


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

One can be proud of anything, even a lack of pride, a good example is what took place this morning, as I was leaving for work, my wife remarked on my matching socks, I looked down horrified, yes, I was in matching socks, it took me a full 15 mins to find a reasonably unmatching pair, yes, I suffer from pride aversion...........


----------



## Ambarsaria

harry haller said:


> One can be proud of anything, even a lack of pride, a good example is what took place this morning, as I was leaving for work, my wife remarked on my matching socks, I looked down horrified, yes, I was in matching socks, it took me a full 15 mins to find a reasonably unmatching pair, yes, I suffer from pride aversion...........


Harry veer ji a simple observation.

Pride can originate from _*doing with intent.*_

*For example: * Matching or mis-matching socks by intent is the same thing

Pride can be diminished by accepting and not being proud in acceptance.

*For example: *Your socks are coincidentally matched or mis-matched should make no difference and should not even be sought to be so discovered icecreammunda

Little tricky my veer ji.  Anyone who loves their mom is closer to God than most who don't!

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

*Re: Creator /God ਦਾਤਾ/ਰੱਬ in SGGS is Masculine or Feminine and what is the significance?*

Veer Ji When I wake up I intend to wear matching socks but sometimes they have holes,but I don't intend for them to have holes,should I intend to wear them or should I intend to sew the holes or should I intend to not wear socks?lolPlease show me _wear_ the pride lies.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji When I wake up I intend to wear matching socks but sometimes they have holes,but I don't intend for them to have holes,should I intend to wear them or should I intend to sew the holes or should I intend to not wear socks?lolPlease show me _wear_ the pride lies.


Scarlet Pimpernel veer socks will get holes, that is part of consonance :interestedmunda:.  Now if these bother you recycle what you got and buy a new pair or sew the holes up so that you don't waste mental energy on such triviality and vanity.  Other option is to wear as is and don't take the shoes off if it affects your vanity  where this is so possible.
If holes in the socks is a big bother I think you are relatively very blessed in worldly comforts.

Sat Sri Akal.  mundahug


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

> I looked down horrified, yes, I was in matching socks, it took me a full 15 mins to find a reasonably unmatching pair


 
Veer Ji That statement does not seem rational to me ,I now see Ambarsaria Ji's point that it would have been much better to just go with what happened to happen.

Pride is not all bad,my best friend died at just 37 from a heart defect, he was a carpenter and had a great *pride* in his work,he used to say if you are going to put your name to something it better be good.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Pride is much a presentation of self and self beliefs.  It is part of the deal in how we are approachable, welcoming, comfortable to all around us.  Too much and too little may have issues, balance is the key.

*Example:*  Sorry going to use Harry veer ji to do this example.  Say Veer does not clean himself, yellow teeth, scruffy persona, dirty clothes, mis-matched socks mundahug, how such appears in terms of living with creation.  

Perhaps ok with most other than our own species, humans.  Living in consonance also includes communicating, facilitating communication, tearing down walls in path of relating to others in our own species and then others.

So while in Rome be like a Roman apply.  Within limits it applies hence the question is not totally pride but also overall ability to relate to all that is around.  It is not good enough to take the high ground and say I am who I am and it is up to others to accept me as such.  There is always a point of balance.

We are going off topic and perhaps one of the Veers or Bhains can create a related thread.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

If there is pride in so called "no pride" then you really haven't reached no-pride state. No-pride is neither self-deprecating, lacking in self-esteem nor is it full with pride about no-pride. 

It is a neutral, alert, aware stance of seeing your true identity. Something that gradually deepens with meditation. Meditation is taking some time off and unloading all that baggage (including pride) and simply being your true self.

No-pride is being itself. No-pride is that motherly/fatherly embrace in which pride can manifest and play around. Continuously seeing and identifying with that embrace is healthy; it is meditation.

Yes it does become repetitive " waheguru waheguru..." "focus on breath going in, focus on breath going out" as a way of identifying with that embrace... but that is life. 

How many times in a day do you identify with your true self?


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

BhagatSingh said:


> If there is pride in so called "no pride" then you really haven't reached no-pride state. No-pride is neither self-deprecating, lacking in self-esteem nor is it full with pride about no-pride.
> 
> It is a neutral, alert, aware stance of seeing your true identity. Something that gradually deepens with meditation. Meditation is taking some time off and unloading all that baggage (including pride) and simply being your true self.
> 
> No-pride is being itself. No-pride is that motherly/fatherly embrace in which pride can manifest and play around. Continuously seeing and identifying with that embrace is healthy; it is meditation.
> 
> Yes it does become repetitive " waheguru waheguru..." "focus on breath going in, focus on breath going out" as a way of identifying with that embrace... but that is life.
> 
> How many times in a day do you identify with your true self?


 
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
What about RAAM NAAMu/HARi NAAMu ?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Prakash ji
Ram Naam, Hari Naam, any Naam (not just in the sense of a name) can be used to connect with that no-pride, true identity, God.


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## prakash.s.bagga

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji
> Ram Naam, Hari Naam, any Naam (not just in the sense of a name) can be used to connect with that no-pride, true identity, God.


 
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
We have developed the understanding of the word NAAM as NAME whereas in Gurbani I personally view that NAAM is not NAME.
This is becuse NAME refers to any NOUN word .and the word NAAM does not refer to any word as NOUN.
In Gurmukhi language of Gurbani  the word used for any word as NOUN is the word NAA-u.
This makes the reference for NAAM quite different from NAME.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Prakash ji,
Here's my understanding of the concept of Naam: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...s-sikhism-embrace-mysticism-3.html#post157026

Please guide.


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## prakash.s.bagga

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> Here's my understanding of the concept of Naam: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...s-sikhism-embrace-mysticism-3.html#post157026
> 
> Please guide.


 
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I have gone thru your post.I personally feel you can give a more thinking to realise the difference between NAME and NAAMu in Gurbani.
I may give you a hint which you may probably find useful.
Any word for NAME is essentially a SINGULAR word.
But in Gurbani NAAMu/NAAM is always a pair of two SINGULAR words together.
for Example.
The words as NAME 
SINGULAR(Gend MAscu)......RAAMu,GOBINDu,HAREE.GuRu,GuRoo and so ...

The words as NAAMu
SINGULAR(Collect Noun)....<RAAMu.RAAMu>
                                    <GOBINDu.GOBINDu>
                                    <GuRu.GuRu>
                                     <GuRoo.GuRoo>
                                     <HAREE.HAREE>
                                      <HARi.HARi>
So you can make an observation on the pair words in Gurbani and try to understand their implication.
I think you should get to it.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Prakash ji,
Three things:
1. Srigranth.org translated Naa-u as Naam.
2. I don't understand your hint at all. Please guide.
3. How would you translate Naam in this pauri from Jap ji?
ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਲਖ ਵੀਸ ॥
इक दू जीभौ लख होहि लख होवहि लख वीस ॥
Ik ḏū jībẖou lakẖ hohi lakẖ hovėh lakẖ vīs.
If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue,

ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
लखु लखु गेड़ा आखीअहि एकु नामु जगदीस ॥
Lakẖ lakẖ geṛā ākẖī▫ahi ek nām jagḏīs.
I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe.

ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥
एतु राहि पति पवड़ीआ चड़ीऐ होइ इकीस ॥
Ėṯ rāhi paṯ pavṛī▫ā cẖaṛī▫ai ho▫e ikīs.
Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.

ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਆਕਾਸ ਕੀ ਕੀਟਾ ਆਈ ਰੀਸ ॥
सुणि गला आकास की कीटा आई रीस ॥
Suṇ galā ākās kī kītā ā▫ī rīs.
Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ ॥੩੨॥
नानक नदरी पाईऐ कूड़ी कूड़ै ठीस ॥३२॥
Nānak naḏrī pā▫ī▫ai kūṛī kūrhai ṯẖīs. ||32||
O Nanak, by His Grace He is obtained. False are the boastings of the false. ||32||


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## prakash.s.bagga

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji,
> Three things:
> 1. Srigranth.org translated Naa-u as Naam.
> 2. I don't understand your hint at all. Please guide.
> 3. How would you translate Naam in this pauri from Jap ji?
> ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਲਖ ਵੀਸ ॥
> इक दू जीभौ लख होहि लख होवहि लख वीस ॥
> Ik ḏū jībẖou lakẖ hohi lakẖ hovėh lakẖ vīs.
> If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue,
> 
> ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
> लखु लखु गेड़ा आखीअहि एकु नामु जगदीस ॥
> Lakẖ lakẖ geṛā ākẖī▫ahi ek nām jagḏīs.
> I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe.
> 
> ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥
> एतु राहि पति पवड़ीआ चड़ीऐ होइ इकीस ॥
> Ėṯ rāhi paṯ pavṛī▫ā cẖaṛī▫ai ho▫e ikīs.
> Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.
> 
> ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਆਕਾਸ ਕੀ ਕੀਟਾ ਆਈ ਰੀਸ ॥
> सुणि गला आकास की कीटा आई रीस ॥
> Suṇ galā ākās kī kītā ā▫ī rīs.
> Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ ॥੩੨॥
> नानक नदरी पाईऐ कूड़ी कूड़ै ठीस ॥३२॥
> Nānak naḏrī pā▫ī▫ai kūṛī kūrhai ṯẖīs. ||32||
> O Guru Nanak, by His Grace He is obtained. False are the boastings of the false. ||32||


 
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
Pl dont confine to JAP Ji. You should go thruthe whole of SGGS to observe what I have hinted.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
FOR your reference pl


ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥੨॥ 


हरि हरि नामु मिलै त्रिपतासहि मिलि संगति गुण परगासि ॥२॥ 

Har har nām milai ṯaripṯāsahi mil sangaṯ guṇ pargās. ||2|| 

Obtaining the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, they are satisfied; joining the Sangat, the Blessed Congregation, their virtues shine forth. ||2|| 


ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਜਮ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ 


जिन हरि हरि हरि रसु नामु न पाइआ ते भागहीण जम पासि ॥ 

Jin har har har ras nām na pā▫i▫ā ṯe bẖāghīṇ jam pās. 

Those who have not obtained the Sublime Essence of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, are most unfortunate; they are led away by the Messenger of Death. 

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

There are gift of nature, 
provided to everyone, 
depending on those GIFT OWES, 
available from the nature, 
with the gift one OWES, 
and have WILL, 
will understand, the MATRIX

Understand Five senses

eyes we see, nose for smell, tongue for taste, ear to hear, skin for touch.

Blessed one have these gifts

Let see what one can see

Persons on the physical plane : Different Colours/ Shapes etc

Lets see what on colours


 A person skin has yellow coloration, 

On physical observation, who hay eye and training of mind on colours, 
can say colour is yellow

Doctor said might be suffering from Jaundice.

With his eye sense , his perception is one step beyond,

Doctor understand's why colour is yellow, what is happening inside, what is remedy.

And sense available is "EYE" but how perception varies.



Depending what's available, and training of mind, one can perceive

Object at physical level/ Chemical Level/ Atomic Level/ Sub Atomic Level etc.

or through total devotion to "GURU's BANI"  



I will not discuss of SIXTH sense, as most of us have disagreement.



Now

Essence of tongue is taste,
Essence of ear is listening

Essence of Naam, is ..........
Gun Pargas, ..........

What Essence and Gun refelcts,    

Is it mystic


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Tejwant Singh

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

One question comes to mind about your understanding of the literal translation of the following pauri to be true. It seems you agree with it and have the same thought process regarding this.

What happens with those who are mute?




> How would you translate Naam in this pauri from Jap ji?
> ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਲਖ ਵੀਸ ॥
> इक दू जीभौ लख होहि लख होवहि लख वीस ॥
> Ik ḏū jībẖou lakẖ hohi lakẖ hovėh lakẖ vīs.
> If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue,
> 
> ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
> लखु लखु गेड़ा आखीअहि एकु नामु जगदीस ॥
> Lakẖ lakẖ geṛā ākẖī▫ahi ek nām jagḏīs.
> I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe.
> 
> ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥
> एतु राहि पति पवड़ीआ चड़ीऐ होइ इकीस ॥
> Ėṯ rāhi paṯ pavṛī▫ā cẖaṛī▫ai ho▫e ikīs.
> Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.
> 
> ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਆਕਾਸ ਕੀ ਕੀਟਾ ਆਈ ਰੀਸ ॥
> सुणि गला आकास की कीटा आई रीस ॥
> Suṇ galā ākās kī kītā ā▫ī rīs.
> Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ ॥੩੨॥
> नानक नदरी पाईऐ कूड़ी कूड़ै ठीस ॥३२॥
> Nānak naḏrī pā▫ī▫ai kūṛī kūrhai ṯẖīs. ||32||
> O Guru Nanak, by His Grace He is obtained. False are the boastings of the false. ||32||



Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria

A feeble attempt at translating the pauri below and all errors are mine and I stand corrected,



> ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਲਖ ਵੀਸ ॥
> 
> इक दू जीभौ लख होहि लख होवहि लख वीस ॥
> Ik ḏū jībẖou lakẖ hohi lakẖ hovėh lakẖ vīs.
> If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue,
> ਮੇਰੀ ਇਕ ਜ਼ਬਾਨ ਤੋਂ ਇਕ ਲੱਖ ਜ਼ਬਾਨਾਂ ਹੋ ਜਾਣ ਅਤੇ ਇਕ ਲੱਖ ਵੀਹੇ ਲਖ ਹੋ ਵੰਞਣ।
> ਇਕੁ ਦੂ = ਇੱਕ ਤੋਂ। ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ = ਇਕ ਜੀਭ ਤੋਂ। ਹੋਹਿ = ਹੋ ਜਾਣ। ਲਖ = ਲੱਖ (ਜੀਭਾਂ)। ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ = ਲੱਖ ਜੀਭਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੋ ਜਾਣ। ਲਖ ਵੀਸ = ਵੀਹ ਲੱਖ।
> 
> ਜੇ ਇੱਕ ਜੀਭ ਤੋਂ ਲੱਖ ਜੀਭਾਂ ਹੋ ਜਾਣ, ਅਤੇ ਲੱਖ ਜੀਭਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੀਹ ਲੱਖ ਬਣ ਜਾਣ,


_From one tongue become hundred thousand and thereof two million_



> ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
> 
> लखु लखु गेड़ा आखीअहि एकु नामु जगदीस ॥
> Lakẖ lakẖ geṛā ākẖī▫ahi ek nām jagḏīs.
> I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe.
> ਹਰ ਇਕ ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਮੈਂ ਲਖੂਖਾਂ ਵਾਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਦੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਾਂਗਾ।
> ਗੇੜਾ = ਫੇਰੇ, ਚੱਕਰ। ਆਖੀਅਹਿ = ਆਖੇ ਜਾਣ। ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ = ਜਗਦੀਸ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਨਾਮ। ਜਗਦੀਸ = ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਈਸ਼, ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ।
> 
> (ਇਹਨਾਂਵੀਹ ਲੱਖ ਜੀਭਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਜੇ) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਇਕ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਇਕ ਲੱਖ ਵਾਰੀ ਆਖੀਏ (ਤਾਂਭੀ ਕੂੜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਕੂੜੀ ਹੀ ਠੀਸ ਹੈ, ਭਾਵ, ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਰੇ ਕਿ ਮੈਂਆਪਣੇ ਉੱਦਮ ਦੇ ਆਸਰੇ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਪਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਤਾਂਇਹ ਝੂਠਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ)।


_Creator’s name be repeated hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands times_


> ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥
> 
> एतु राहि पति पवड़ीआ चड़ीऐ होइ इकीस ॥
> Ėṯ rāhi paṯ pavṛī▫ā cẖaṛī▫ai ho▫e ikīs.
> Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.
> ਪਤੀ ਦੇ ਇਸ ਰਸਤੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪਾਉੜੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਡੰਡਿਆਂ ਉਤੇ ਦੀ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਮੈਂ ਉਸ ਨਾਲ ਇਕ ਮਿਕ ਹੋ ਜਾਵਾਂਗੀ।
> ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ = ਇਸ ਰਸਤੇਵਿਚ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਰਸਤੇ ਵਿਚ। ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ = ਪਤੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ, ਪਤੀਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਜੋ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਚੜੀਐ = ਚੜ੍ਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਚੜ੍ਹ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ =ਇਕ ਰੂਪ ਹੋ ਕੇ, ਆਪਾ-ਭਾਵ ਗਵਾ ਕੇ।
> 
> ਇਸਰਸਤੇ ਵਿਚ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਵਿੱਥ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਰਾਹ ਵਿਚ) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣਵਾਸਤੇ ਜੋ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਉੱਤੇ ਆਪਾ-ਭਾਵ ਗਵਾ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਲੱਖਾਂਜੀਭਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਭੀ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਦੇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਨਾਲ ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣਦਾ।


_The steps on such path can only be ascended through extinguishing the “me” within_


> ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਆਕਾਸ ਕੀ ਕੀਟਾ ਆਈ ਰੀਸ ॥
> 
> सुणि गला आकास की कीटा आई रीस ॥
> Suṇ galā ākās kī kītā ā▫ī rīs.
> Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.
> ਬੈਕੁੰਠੀ ਬਾਤਾਂ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਕੀੜੇ (ਨੀਚ) ਭੀ ਨਕਲ ਕਰਨੀ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ।
> ਸੁਣਿ = ਸੁਣਿ ਕੇ। ਕੀਟਾ = ਕੀੜਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ।
> 
> ਆਪਾ-ਭਾਵਦੂਰ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਇਹ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਦੇ ਪਾਠਾਂ ਵਾਲਾ ਉੱਦਮ ਇਉਂ ਹੈ, ਮਾਨੋ) ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਦੀਆਂਗੱਲਾਂ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਕੀੜਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਰੀਸ ਆ ਗਈ ਹੈ (ਕਿ ਅਸੀਂ ਭੀ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਤੇ ਅੱਪੜਜਾਈਏ)।


_Even the insects copy to hear such talk of the yonder_


> ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਠੀਸ ॥੩੨॥
> 
> नानक नदरी पाईऐ कूड़ी कूड़ै ठीस ॥३२॥
> Nānak naḏrī pā▫ī▫ai kūṛī kūrhai ṯẖīs. ||32||
> O Guru Nanak, by His Grace He is obtained. False are the boastings of the false. ||32||
> ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਉਸਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਸਦਕਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਦੀ ਝੂਠੀ ਹੀ ਗੱਪ ਹੈ।
> ਨਦਰੀ = ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀਮਿਹਰ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਨਾਲ। ਪਾਈਐ = ਪਾਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕੂੜੈ =ਕੂੜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ। ਕੂੜੀ ਠਸਿ = ਝੂਠੀ ਗੱਪ, ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਦੀ ਝੂਠੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ।
> 
> ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! ਜੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਿਹਰ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਕਰੇ, ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲੀਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ)ਕੂੜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਦੀ ਨਿਰੀ ਕੂੜੀ ਹੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹੈ (ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾਹਾਂ) ॥੩੨॥


_Guru Nanak only with blessing we achieve, false talk only of falsehood_



> *Essence:  *Guru ji dismiss the approach of parroting and liken it to insects who in like large number fly upwards as to reach the sky.  Humility in self and blessing of the creator allow success all else is falsehood of the false.


Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Ambarsaria ji,
The essence of that Pauri is without God's grace ego cannot be eliminated and Creator and Creation cannot be understood. Without God's Grace one cannot live in consonance but that shouldn't stop us from trying to be in consonance. God's Grace becomes more and more likely to happen the more intensely you identify with the God inside you, the more you bring God in and let the ego leave (hence the more consonant you are).

Tejwant Singh ji,
The way I understand the Pauri, the question is answered and actually will never come up as it is not an issue. Of course, any handicap is going to come in the way of a technique, of a certain act that gets your attention to God and makes you remember you essence and connection with him. Being blind one cannot read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Being deaf one cannot listen to Kirtan and Paath. Being mentally challenged one cannot understand the concepts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Missing all limbs, with just a torso and head with dysfunctional eyes, ears and tongue... 

One can still meditate and live to the fullest without suffering. Actually, I am of the opinion that handicaps often drive the intensity needed for meditation. 

My understanding is that all of these handicaps do not matter when it comes to meditation. Meditation is available anyone who is conscious (so no sleeping during simran. Although when one is an expert one can meditate in their sleep or better stated one goes through life in meditation ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਇੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਉ ). 

Specific techniques depend on the individual but all individuals can meditate. I repeat in the words of a previous post: Anyone can identify with that embrace that embraces pride, ego, anger, etc and everything else. 

See what that embrace is in you. What is it that which embraces everything?


Tejwant Singh ji as you suggested.
I go into other shabads and personal experience when I feel it helps to explain. With that said, no amount of intellectual understanding, theoretical knowledge can replace actual practice and direct experience of what any shabad talks about. One cannot learn to swim by reading a book.

ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
स्रीरागु महला ५ ॥
Sarīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੋਈ ਧਿਆਈਐ (to concentrate) ਜੀਅੜੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥
सोई धिआईऐ जीअड़े सिरि साहां पातिसाहु ॥
So▫ī ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai jī▫aṛe sir sāhāŉ pāṯisāhu.
Meditate on Him, O my soul; He is the Supreme Lord over kings and emperors.

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਆਸ ਮਨ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥
तिस ही की करि आस मन जिस का सभसु वेसाहु ॥
Ŧis hī kī kar ās man jis kā sabẖas vesāhu.
Place the hopes of your mind in the One, in whom all have faith.

ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ (intelligence, intellect) ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਪਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
सभि सिआणपा छडि कै गुर की चरणी पाहु ॥१॥
Sabẖ si▫āṇpā cẖẖad kai gur kī cẖarṇī pāhu. ||1||
Give up all your clever tricks, and grasp the Feet of the Guru. ||1||

To drop your intellect for a while in remembering God, does not mean you become stupid say "Doh...". It means to transcend your intellect. Let it go and let Guru's wisdom speak directly to you. Or if you practicing a particular meditation technique, drop the intellect and listen to the Guru (inside of you).

ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
मन मेरे सुख सहज सेती जपि नाउ ॥
Man mere sukẖ sahj seṯī jap nā▫o.
O my mind, chant the Name with intuitive peace and poise.
ਸਹਜ - (natural state, intuition, without mental activity e.g. judging, thinking)
Chant the name without mental activity. Mental activity will occur as that is the way of the mind, but let it run out of thoughts by not reacting to it. Simply remember God when it does so.

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਇੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आठ पहर प्रभु धिआइ तूं गुण गोइंद नित गाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Āṯẖ pahar parabẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯūŉ guṇ go▫inḏ niṯ gā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Twenty-four hours a day, meditate on God (It is possible!). Constantly sing the Glories of the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||

 A very real possibility. Enlightened ones say they are in meditation even when asleep thus their dreams do not seem real to them as they dream them. 
The unenlightened ones think their dreams are real and are totally engrossed in them while dreaming. Once they wake up they realize it was all a dream.

This also applies when one is not sleeping or dreaming, when we are going about our daily activities. Maya, the world, is like a dream that you are engrossed in. Wake up!

ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੁ ਮਨਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
तिस की सरनी परु मना जिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Ŧis kī sarnī par manā jis jevad avar na ko▫e.
Seek His Shelter, O my mind; there is no other as Great as He.

Wake up and seek his shelter, the embrace.

ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ (to remember, repeat) ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਘਣਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਮੂਲੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
जिसु सिमरत सुखु होइ घणा दुखु दरदु न मूले होइ ॥
Jis simraṯ sukẖ ho▫e gẖaṇā ḏukẖ ḏaraḏ na mūle ho▫e.
Remembering Him in meditation, a profound peace is obtained. Pain and suffering will not touch you at all.

How to remember? Call His name out. Think of His virtues. Think about what He has given you. As you think, you can only think about one thing at a time. You want to remember God in his entirety, thinking is limited to one a few things. Intuition, your being, and it's ability to know, understand and remember things all at once, comes into play. It is an untapped power in most people. 

For instance, an artist cannot think about his painting as he does it, otherwise, he cannot completely focus on the painting and do as good a job. He must let his being automatically do the painting; must let God act through him/his form. This is intuition in action.
The artist simply looks and applies paint. He does not analyze or make measurements. The level at which this analysis and measuring occurs is the intuitive level, at this level the artist's understanding cannot be rivalled by his intellect! the analysis that takes place in the intuitive state is thus very powerful but it happens without thought, in a state when the artist is letting God run things.


We want to know God but the one who will eventually know God is God.He is the Enjoyer, He is the enjoyment. - page 23 

He is the artist, He himself is the painting.


ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
सदा सदा करि चाकरी प्रभु साहिबु सचा सोइ ॥२॥
Saḏā saḏā kar cẖākrī parabẖ sāhib sacẖā so▫e. ||2||
Forever and ever, work for God; He is our True Lord and Master. ||2||

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਕਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਫਾਸ ॥
साधसंगति होइ निरमला कटीऐ जम की फास ॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ ho▫e nirmalā katī▫ai jam kī fās.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away.

ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
सुखदाता भै भंजनो तिसु आगै करि अरदासि ॥
Sukẖ▫ḏāṯa bẖai bẖanjno ṯis āgai kar arḏās.
So offer your prayers to Him, the Giver of Peace, the Destroyer of fear.

ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
मिहर करे जिसु मिहरवानु तां कारजु आवै रासि ॥३॥
Mihar kare jis miharvān ṯāŉ kāraj āvai rās. ||3||
Showing His Mercy, the Merciful Master shall resolve your affairs. ||3||

ਬਹੁਤੋ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥
बहुतो बहुतु वखाणीऐ ऊचो ऊचा थाउ ॥
Bahuṯo bahuṯ vakẖāṇī▫ai ūcẖo ūcẖā thā▫o.
The Lord is said to be the Greatest of the Great; His Kingdom is the Highest of the High.

ਵਰਨਾ ਚਿਹਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਉ ॥
वरना चिहना बाहरा कीमति कहि न सकाउ ॥
varnā cẖihnā bāhrā kīmaṯ kahi na sakā▫o.
He has no color or mark; His Value cannot be estimated.

In other words: What does The Embrace look like? That part of you which embraces everything, what does that look like?

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਣਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੭॥੭੭॥
नानक कउ प्रभ मइआ करि सचु देवहु अपुणा नाउ ॥४॥७॥७७॥
Nānak ka▫o parabẖ ma▫i▫ā kar sacẖ ḏevhu apuṇā nā▫o. ||4||7||77||
Please show Mercy to Guru Nanak, God, and bless him with Your True Name. ||4||7||77||
page 44

Mehar Kare Jis Meharwan - Bhai Jaswant Singh - Live Sri Harmandir Sahib      - YouTube
Listen to the shabad and be at peace and allow me to return to Prakash ji's advice.


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let me try once again.

You write:



> Tejwant Singh ji,
> The way I understand the Pauri, the question is answered and actually will never come up as it is not an issue. Of course, any handicap is going to come in the way of a technique, of a certain act that gets your attention to God and makes you remember you essence and connection with him. Being blind one cannot read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Being deaf one cannot listen to Kirtan and Paath. Being mentally challenged one cannot understand the concepts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Missing all limbs, with just a torso and head with dysfunctional eyes, ears and tongue...



Gurbani is a universal message and our Gurus thought about all human kind. You have inverted the things from our Guru to the people. My question to you still stands. 

Are you trying to say that this universal message of Gurbani by the founder of the pragmatic way of life, Guru Nanak, is only for the selective people who can talk? 

Or, may be is there a possibility that your understanding of this particular Pauri is totally biased towards one group of people, not Guru Nanak's, because we know Gurbani is for all? No exception.

You know very well  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is for breeding goodness in all.

So, give it a second thought before you respond hastily.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

What this interprets to mind 
Quote:
    			 				How would you translate Naam in this pauri from Jap ji?
ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਲਖ ਵੀਸ ॥
इक दू जीभौ लख होहि लख होवहि लख वीस ॥
Ik ḏū jībẖou lakẖ hohi lakẖ hovėh lakẖ vīs.
If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue,
with many tongues, what ever tongue discuss.
ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
लखु लखु गेड़ा आखीअहि एकु नामु जगदीस ॥
Lakẖ lakẖ geṛā ākẖī▫ahi ek nām jagḏīs.
I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe.
all learning, dicussion are originated and connected to one "NAAM"

It's like if when we name a child, we discuss good, bad, scores, behaviours, etc, 
many discusions of one relates to name 

So every thing is his creation, when we recite/listen/ remember *(For MUTE)* NAAM, or all his creation and events, it all leads to same. One say "NAAM" with mind, it all appears.
(We differ in opinions, because of different gifts, experiences and WILL)

 Word by Word, line by line, imbibe essence.


Whaeguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Tejwant Singh ji as you suggested.
> I go into other shabads and personal experience when I feel it helps to explain. With that said, no amount of intellectual understanding, theoretical knowledge can replace actual practice and direct experience of what any shabad talks about. One cannot learn to swim by reading a book.[/COLOR]
> 
> ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> स्रीरागु महला ५ ॥
> Sarīrāg mėhlā 5.
> Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
> 
> ਸੋਈ ਧਿਆਈਐ (to concentrate) ਜੀਅੜੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥
> सोई धिआईऐ जीअड़े सिरि साहां पातिसाहु ॥
> So▫ī ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai jī▫aṛe sir sāhāŉ pāṯisāhu.
> Meditate on Him, O my soul; He is the Supreme Lord over kings and emperors.
> 
> ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਆਸ ਮਨ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥
> तिस ही की करि आस मन जिस का सभसु वेसाहु ॥
> Ŧis hī kī kar ās man jis kā sabẖas vesāhu.
> Place the hopes of your mind in the One, in whom all have faith.
> 
> ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ (intelligence, intellect) ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਪਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
> सभि सिआणपा छडि कै गुर की चरणी पाहु ॥१॥
> Sabẖ si▫āṇpā cẖẖad kai gur kī cẖarṇī pāhu. ||1||
> Give up all your clever tricks, and grasp the Feet of the Guru. ||1||
> 
> To drop your intellect for a while in remembering God, does not mean you become stupid say "Doh...". It means to transcend your intellect. Let it go and let Guru's wisdom speak directly to you. Or if you practicing a particular meditation technique, drop the intellect and listen to the Guru (inside of you).
> 
> ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
> मन मेरे सुख सहज सेती जपि नाउ ॥
> Man mere sukẖ sahj seṯī jap nā▫o.
> O my mind, chant the Name with intuitive peace and poise.
> ਸਹਜ - (natural state, intuition, without mental activity e.g. judging, thinking)
> Chant the name without mental activity. Mental activity will occur as that is the way of the mind, but let it run out of thoughts by not reacting to it. Simply remember God when it does so.
> 
> ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਇੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> आठ पहर प्रभु धिआइ तूं गुण गोइंद नित गाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> Āṯẖ pahar parabẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯūŉ guṇ go▫inḏ niṯ gā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> Twenty-four hours a day, meditate on God (It is possible!). Constantly sing the Glories of the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||
> 
> A very real possibility. Enlightened ones say they are in meditation even when asleep thus their dreams do not seem real to them as they dream them.
> The unenlightened ones think their dreams are real and are totally engrossed in them while dreaming. Once they wake up they realize it was all a dream.
> 
> This also applies when one is not sleeping or dreaming, when we are going about our daily activities. Maya, the world, is like a dream that you are engrossed in. Wake up!
> 
> ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੁ ਮਨਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
> तिस की सरनी परु मना जिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥
> Ŧis kī sarnī par manā jis jevad avar na ko▫e.
> Seek His Shelter, O my mind; there is no other as Great as He.
> 
> Wake up and seek his shelter, the embrace.
> 
> ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ (to remember, repeat) ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਘਣਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਮੂਲੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
> जिसु सिमरत सुखु होइ घणा दुखु दरदु न मूले होइ ॥
> Jis simraṯ sukẖ ho▫e gẖaṇā ḏukẖ ḏaraḏ na mūle ho▫e.
> Remembering Him in meditation, a profound peace is obtained. Pain and suffering will not touch you at all.
> 
> How to remember? Call His name out. Think of His virtues. Think about what He has given you. As you think, you can only think about one thing at a time. You want to remember God in his entirety, thinking is limited to one a few things. Intuition, your being, and it's ability to know, understand and remember things all at once, comes into play. It is an untapped power in most people.
> 
> For instance, an artist cannot think about his painting as he does it, otherwise, he cannot completely focus on the painting and do as good a job. He must let his being automatically do the painting; must let God act through him/his form. This is intuition in action.
> The artist simply looks and applies paint. He does not analyze or make measurements. The level at which this analysis and measuring occurs is the intuitive level, at this level the artist's understanding cannot be rivalled by his intellect! the analysis that takes place in the intuitive state is thus very powerful but it happens without thought, in a state when the artist is letting God run things.
> 
> 
> We want to know God but the one who will eventually know God is God.He is the Enjoyer, He is the enjoyment. - page 23
> 
> He is the artist, He himself is the painting.
> 
> 
> ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
> सदा सदा करि चाकरी प्रभु साहिबु सचा सोइ ॥२॥
> Saḏā saḏā kar cẖākrī parabẖ sāhib sacẖā so▫e. ||2||
> Forever and ever, work for God; He is our True Lord and Master. ||2||
> 
> ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਕਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਫਾਸ ॥
> साधसंगति होइ निरमला कटीऐ जम की फास ॥
> Sāḏẖsangaṯ ho▫e nirmalā katī▫ai jam kī fās.
> In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away.
> 
> ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
> सुखदाता भै भंजनो तिसु आगै करि अरदासि ॥
> Sukẖ▫ḏāṯa bẖai bẖanjno ṯis āgai kar arḏās.
> So offer your prayers to Him, the Giver of Peace, the Destroyer of fear.
> 
> ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
> मिहर करे जिसु मिहरवानु तां कारजु आवै रासि ॥३॥
> Mihar kare jis miharvān ṯāŉ kāraj āvai rās. ||3||
> Showing His Mercy, the Merciful Master shall resolve your affairs. ||3||
> 
> ਬਹੁਤੋ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥
> बहुतो बहुतु वखाणीऐ ऊचो ऊचा थाउ ॥
> Bahuṯo bahuṯ vakẖāṇī▫ai ūcẖo ūcẖā thā▫o.
> The Lord is said to be the Greatest of the Great; His Kingdom is the Highest of the High.
> 
> ਵਰਨਾ ਚਿਹਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਉ ॥
> वरना चिहना बाहरा कीमति कहि न सकाउ ॥
> varnā cẖihnā bāhrā kīmaṯ kahi na sakā▫o.
> He has no color or mark; His Value cannot be estimated.
> 
> In other words: What does The Embrace look like? That part of you which embraces everything, what does that look like?
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਣਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੭॥੭੭॥
> नानक कउ प्रभ मइआ करि सचु देवहु अपुणा नाउ ॥४॥७॥७७॥
> Nānak ka▫o parabẖ ma▫i▫ā kar sacẖ ḏevhu apuṇā nā▫o. ||4||7||77||
> Please show Mercy to Guru Nanak, God, and bless him with Your True Name. ||4||7||77||
> page 44



Sorry to disappoint you but in my opinion, you have distorted the message of our Guru Sahib with the help of literal translation which is distorting on its own because it is literally translated word by word without giving it a second thought about the true message our Guru Sahib is trying to convey.

Try putting this poetry into prose in your own words with your body, mind and spirit and you would come to the realisation of what Guru Sahib is trying to convey. 

What good is the personal experience attained through parroting when it can not be transported to other people and make a true difference in their lives?  

It rather becomes more like a self-centered venture of a junkie.

Literal translations are like feel good drugs. That is why their affect is very transitory. The message of Gurbani is to make goodness become our second nature and no kind of parroting can make that happen. Only by understanding, and practicing the message in the world of Miri-Piri can we make a difference as Sikhs. 

Parroting can only breed chest thumping me-ism which is contrary to what our Gurus want us to do through SGGS, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## BhagatSingh

Tejwant Singh ji 
What is parroting?
I am not speaking about that but you seem to want to discuss it. So let's start over. I will let you kick start the discussion, what is your definition of parroting?

Let us attempt to find a road from parroting to "by understanding, and practicing the message in the world of Miri-Piri can we make a difference as Sikhs." together.


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

SAT SANGAT, 

all those who want's to seek truth of nature through "GURU's BANI" and Sadh Jan

Who practise that "Sat as Dharam" dharam as daily routine, as sun is following its

dharam and so on..


At Gurmat Veechar all members, we are all reflecting and sharing our mind, 

on our experience of "GURU's BANI"

One shall always reject the thought, which appears to be wrong and shall not give personal comments, to any one, one may seek clarity on issues.

Each and every opinion is important to dispel the darkness.

Thought can be rejected, but no individual, 

So no rejection with names called, 

each name belongs to "GURU"

Its congregation of truth, all are Guru's Sikh. 

Sometime one may appear better, and sometime other.

But true "NAAM" is his,

Everyone is reflecting his understanding to how it appears to one's own mind.

It is the purification process, seeking truth.

Let's seek "TRUTH" and reject what is not truth without personal comments.


Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## Tejwant Singh

BhagatSingh said:


> Tejwant Singh ji
> What is parroting?
> I am not speaking about that but you seem to want to discuss it. So let's start over. I will let you kick start the discussion, what is your definition of parroting?
> 
> Let us attempt to find a road from parroting to "by understanding, and practicing the message in the world of Miri-Piri can we make a difference as Sikhs." together.



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

I asked you the question sometime ago when you claimed that there is a difference between chanting and parroting and the question was for you to explain the difference. I am still waiting for the answer.

I am sure once we find the difference and understand that Sikhi is not about chanting/parroting  some words but a lot more than that, then we can find a common ground," "by understanding, and practicing the message in the world of Miri-Piri can we make a difference as Sikhs."

Bhagat Singh ji, the fact is there is no such word as meditation in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the word you love to repeat as often as possible. In Sidh Ghosht, Guru Nanak is against what Hindus call meditation. That is why literal translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are not only dangerous but also misleading.

Hope to hear from you about the difference of chanting and parroting and if either is part of Sikhi or is there  more to it than meets the eye?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Ravneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am sorry to say that your post is too cryptic for a lay man like me to grasp. Simplicity is the best way to convey the message as our Gurus did, so even a common person could understand and put their message into practice .

Regards

Tejwant Singh



ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> SAT SANGAT,
> 
> all those who want's to seek truth of nature through "GURU's BANI" and Sadh Jan
> 
> Who practise that "Sat as Dharam" dharam as daily routine, as sun is following its
> 
> dharam and so on..
> 
> 
> At Gurmat Veechar all members, we are all reflecting and sharing our mind,
> 
> on our experience of "GURU's BANI"
> 
> One shall always reject the thought, which appears to be wrong and shall not give personal comments, to any one, one may seek clarity on issues.
> 
> Each and every opinion is important to dispel the darkness.
> 
> Thought can be rejected, but no individual,
> 
> So no rejection with names called,
> 
> each name belongs to "GURU"
> 
> Its congregation of truth, all are Guru's Sikh.
> 
> Sometime one may appear better, and sometime other.
> 
> But true "NAAM" is his,
> 
> Everyone is reflecting his understanding to how it appears to one's own mind.
> 
> It is the purification process, seeking truth.
> 
> Let's seek "TRUTH" and reject what is not truth without personal comments.
> 
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

I take the meaning of EKu  NAAMu JAGDEESH as

THE LORD of the UNIVERSE is only one NAAMu and this NAAMu is RAAM NAAMu/HARi NAAMu or GURMATi RAAM NAAMu. This becomes clear as we read SGGS  with concentration on the meanings of the words of Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

I believe it perhaps is best if we take some of the discourse to the following thread that I tried to create.  Some of the items that we have discussed directly or tangentially could be of more interest there.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/37695-waheguru-simran-nitnem-gurbani-study-you.html

Let me know if it is suitable or if I should delete it.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,

From Gurbani we can learn that the GRACE of Gurbani is avaiable to One and ALL.But the contemplation and understanding of true meanings is to RARE ones.
Then becoming RARE ONE is again  thru the grace of Prabhu/SatiGuru only.
So ULTIMATELY it is all GRACE.............................................................
Prakash S Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
> 
> From Gurbani we can learn that the GRACE of Gurbani is avaiable to One and ALL.But the contemplation and understanding of true meanings is to RARE ones.
> Then becoming RARE ONE is again  thru the grace of Prabhu/SatiGuru only.
> So ULTIMATELY it is all GRACE.............................................................
> Prakash S Bagga



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you partially. The rare one as is called Virla in SGGS, our only Guru is misunderstood by many.

Jews in Judaism claim to be the rare ones because they proclaim to be           "Chosen" by Yahweh, their Abrahamic God.

However, in Sikhi all Sikhs are rare ones. Ik Ong Kaar does not discriminate among Sikhs as does the Abrahamic God.

So, we all who become Sikhs are the RARE ONES.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: I am still waiting for your valuable insights for my post directed to you in the following thread of Sukhmani Shabad 2.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhm...ani-sahib-astpadi-1-sabad-2-a.html#post157456


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

All the negatives, 
what reflects from mind are mine.

The cause of "Gurmat Veechar" is self improvement.

Ravneet says

I was always parroting, till now,

with blessings,  I realised the essence.

please treat me as foolish ignorant in this "Sat Sangat"

I have to seek truth in this congregation of "Sat Sangat"

Please ignore my negatives so that I can get place in "Sat Sangat"

Humble request to all for no personal comments for individuals and "sat sangat"

Let's seek "Guru's Bani" as humble beings.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> I agree with you partially. The rare one as is called Virla in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is misunderstood by many.
> 
> Jews in Judaism claim to be the rare ones because they proclaim to be "Chosen" by Yahweh, their Abrahamic God.
> 
> However, in Sikhi all Sikhs are rare ones. Ik Ong Kaar does not discriminate among Sikhs as does the Abrahamic God.
> 
> So, we all who become Sikhs are the RARE ONES.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I am still waiting for your valuable insights for my post directed to you in the following thread of Sukhmani Shabad 2.
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhm...ani-sahib-astpadi-1-sabad-2-a.html#post157456


 
I have aleady interacted as per your advice .I look forward to your views.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> I agree with you partially. The rare one as is called Virla in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is misunderstood by many.
> 
> Jews in Judaism claim to be the rare ones because they proclaim to be "Chosen" by Yahweh, their Abrahamic God.
> 
> However, in Sikhi all Sikhs are rare ones. Ik Ong Kaar does not discriminate among Sikhs as does the Abrahamic God.
> 
> So, we all who become Sikhs are the RARE ONES.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I am still waiting for your valuable insights for my post directed to you in the following thread of Sukhmani Shabad 2.
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhm...ani-sahib-astpadi-1-sabad-2-a.html#post157456


 
Sir,I have already interacted as per your advice.I look forward to your viewstoshare the same.
Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I have aleady interacted as per your advice .I look forward to your views.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakash singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Could you please specify the posts you are talking about and give the urls so I can respond?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
In fact the whole humanity or to say the UNIVERSE is under the grace of CREATOR Prabhu/SatiGuRu.What is special about Sikhs?
Sikhs are rare in the sense that Sikhs are blessed with SABADu as LIVING GuRoo.
As Sikhs read SGGS they automatically get connected to RAAM NAAMu of the Creator.
{Sikhs may not actually be knowing what is RAAM NAAMu in Gurbani)
For enjoying the grace of the CREATOR Prabhu/SatiGuRu understanding does not play any role.One can enjoy the grace without understanding also.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Could you please specify the posts you are talking about and give the urls so I can respond?
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh


 
It is in second composition  of ASTAPADI 1.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> In fact the whole humanity or to say the UNIVERSE is under the grace of CREATOR Prabhu/SatiGuRu.*What is special about Sikhs?*



You are the one who claimed only rare Sikhs can have Ik Ong Kaar's grace, not me and now you are contradicting yourself. 

What is special about Sikhs is Sikhi, the universal message of Gurbani based on objective reality unlike other dogmatic religions who are based on subjective, self made truths like Hell and Heaven.



> Sikhs are rare in the sense that Sikhs are blessed with SABADu as LIVING GuRoo.



Exactly my point which I mentioned in my last post. So, now you agree that all Sikhs are rare. I am glad you have changed your mind.



> As Sikhs read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji they automatically get connected to RAAM NAAMu of the Creator.



I beg to differ with you. No, they do not. Reading Gurbani is not enough. Studying Gurbani is the first step.



> {Sikhs may not actually be knowing what is RAAM NAAMu in Gurbani)



What makes you say that about other Sikhs? Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch of Sikhi.



> For enjoying the grace of the CREATOR Prabhu/SatiGuRu understanding does not play any role.One can enjoy the grace without understanding also.



I am sorry, I did not understand what you are trying to convey. Understanding of what are you talking about? Can you please elaborate with the help of Gurbani from SGGS, our only Guru?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: I checked the thread and did not see the response regarding the following post as you said you did respond to it. Am I missing something?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhma...tml#post157456


----------



## Ambarsaria

Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.  I am one for sure confused.



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> As Sikhs read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji they automatically get connected to RAAM NAAMu of the Creator.


_So prakash.s.bagga veer ji this happens at birth, the name ceremony of a child or the adoption of a non-sikh child by a Sikh family, marriage of a non-Sikh to a Sikh or when?  I find this actually little disturbing.

Just out of curiosity I did a search at Srigranth.org for your description in the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...-god-sri-guru-granth-sahib-14.html#post157485

Very interesting numbers below in terms of occurrences of various terms/words,

_ *ਹਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ                      0 *
*ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ**                      691*
*ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ* *                      193*
*ਜਗਦੀਸ* *                         77*
 *ਗੁਰਮਤਿ                    283  *
*ਨਾਨਕ* *                            5124*
*ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ* * ਨਾਮਿ **ਨਾਮ**     366*
_Somehow I don't see the importance of what you say in your post!  Can you please comment also in terms of gender of others as we know Guru Nanak Dev ji to be male and the name Guru Nanak is used in conjunction with_ 

*ੁ   ਿ   ਮੁਕਤਾ*


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> {Sikhs may not actually be knowing what is RAAM NAAMu in Gurbani)


_Please help with the explanation.  It will of course be very worthwhile as I only understand NAAMu to stand for "Name" or "Understanding".  

There is no need to put NAAMu with a proper name!  So I treat all occurrences of NAAMu with any name as to stand for "understanding" rather than a physical singular name.  Please correct me or explain and help.
_


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> For enjoying the grace of the CREATOR Prabhu/SatiGuRu understanding does not play any role.One can enjoy the grace without understanding also.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


_Now this is another perplexing comment.  So goes to the question/comment that Tejwant Singh ji had earlier in the thread.  So a blind and deaf will have to get it through touching the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or touching someone who already has the grace.  Please explain and help.

Prakash.s.bagga ji if you imply that creator is in all, and saying it in another way, this I can relate to.  As life itself can be considered a grace for all creation and everything else too.

_If I agree with your assertions I feel like someone who is slipping down a slippery slope with no ability to brake._

_Sat Sri Akal._
_


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the one who claimed only rare Sikhs can have Ik Ong Kaar's grace, not me and now you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> What is special about Sikhs is Sikhi, the universal message of Gurbani based on objective reality unlike other dogmatic religions who are based on subjective, self made truths like Hell and Heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my point which I mentioned in my last post. So, now you agree that all Sikhs are rare. I am glad you have changed your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ with you. No, they do not. Reading Gurbani is not enough. Studying Gurbani is the first step.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you say that about other Sikhs? Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch of Sikhi.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, I did not understand what you are trying to convey. Understanding of what are you talking about? Can you please elaborate with the help of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I checked the thread and did not see the response regarding the following post as you said you did respond to it. Am I missing something?
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhma...tml#post157456[/QUOTE
> 
> Sir ,You have misconstrued my complete message.
> I have given the message considering the CREATOR as UNIVERSAL,OMNIPRESENT AND OMNIPOTENT.So with reference to the Universal character of the CREATOR ,the grace of CREATOR should also be UNIVERSAL irespective of any religion of the persons.
> If you see the message with reference to this I think most of the contents would be clear.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Sir ,You have misconstrued my complete message.
> I have given the message considering the CREATOR as UNIVERSAL,OMNIPRESENT AND OMNIPOTENT.So with reference to the Universal character of the CREATOR ,the grace of CREATOR should also be UNIVERSAL irespective of any religion of the persons.
> If you see the message with reference to this I think most of the contents would be clear.



First of all I am no SIR, just a Sikh, a learner, a student.

The above post has nothing to do with your other posts and I do not find any connection with them either. This is totally out of the left field using the baseball jargon.

You are incorrect. I have not misconstrued anything. It is you who changed your mind when challenged and mentioned something above which is missing in your posts. You can read your posts again in order to take your confusion out.

We are talking about Sikhi and you mentioned about Sikhs and some being rare which I contested and challenged you but you kept quiet about it for the reasons only known to you. Your posts have nothing to do with all the religions as you claim now.

But, anyway;it seems you change things when challenged about your proclamations and unfounded assumptions as they nitidly show in your posts.

If you can not respond and defend what you write, then it is better not to claim something that you can not back it up.

Let's move on because the  idea of this forum is to learn from each other, not to get into any circular arguments.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Tejwant Singh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the one who claimed only rare Sikhs can have Ik Ong Kaar's grace, not me and now you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> I will be interested in knowing when did I make any such claim. as I always write EKANKAAR u/EKANKAAR.I dont find the pronunciation like ikongkar in Gurbani.
> 
> What is special about Sikhs is Sikhi, the universal message of Gurbani based on objective reality unlike other dogmatic religions who are based on subjective, self made truths like Hell and Heaven.
> 
> I understand SIKHi is related to GuR Vichaar.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my point which I mentioned in my last post. So, now you agree that all Sikhs are rare. I am glad you have changed your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ with you. No, they do not. Reading Gurbani is not enough. Studying Gurbani is the first step.
> 
> Understanding and grace are two different effects related to Gurbani.For understadning study is must but for grace not only reading just bowing before SGGS is enough.You may bnot agree to this .
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you say that about other Sikhs? Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch of Sikhi.
> 
> If it were so then Sikhs would not be trapped in SANtwad or DERA wad as in Punjab in India.I dont know about abroad.SIKHS are rare only when connected to SGGS only.
> 
> I am sorry, I did not understand what you are trying to convey. Understanding of what are you talking about? Can you please elaborate with the help of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?
> 
> I shall be refering you some quotes about who can get the true meanings
> as per Gurbani.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I checked the thread and did not see the response regarding the following post as you said you did respond to it. Am I missing something?
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhma...tml#post157456[/QUOTE
Click to expand...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

prakash.s.bagga said:


> prakash.s.bagga said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejwant Singh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the one who claimed only rare Sikhs can have Ik Ong Kaar's grace, not me and now you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> I will be interested in knowing when did I make any such claim. as I always write EKANKAAR u/EKANKAAR.I dont find the pronunciation like ikongkar in Gurbani.
> 
> What is special about Sikhs is Sikhi, the universal message of Gurbani based on objective reality unlike other dogmatic religions who are based on subjective, self made truths like Hell and Heaven.
> 
> I understand SIKHi is related to GuR Vichaar.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my point which I mentioned in my last post. So, now you agree that all Sikhs are rare. I am glad you have changed your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ with you. No, they do not. Reading Gurbani is not enough. Studying Gurbani is the first step.
> 
> Understanding and grace are two different effects related to Gurbani.For understadning study is must but for grace not only reading just bowing before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is enough.You may bnot agree to this .
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you say that about other Sikhs? Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch of Sikhi.
> 
> If it were so then Sikhs would not be trapped in SANtwad or DERA wad as in Punjab in India.I dont know about abroad.SIKHS are rare only when connected to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only.
> 
> I am sorry, I did not understand what you are trying to convey. Understanding of what are you talking about? Can you please elaborate with the help of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?
> 
> I shall be refering you some quotes about who can get the true meanings
> as per Gurbani.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I checked the thread and did not see the response regarding the following post as you said you did respond to it. Am I missing something?
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhma...tml#post157456[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
> Last message removed as I directly answer to your questions.
> Prakash.S.Bagga
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post. I am one for sure confused.
> 
> 
> _So prakash.s.bagga veer ji this happens at birth, the name ceremony of a child or the adoption of a non-sikh child by a Sikh family, marriage of a non-Sikh to a Sikh or when? I find this actually little disturbing._
> 
> _Just out of curiosity I did a search at Srigranth.org for your description in the following,_
> 
> _http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...-god-sri-guru-granth-sahib-14.html#post157485_
> 
> _Very interesting numbers below in terms of occurrences of various terms/words,_
> 
> *ਹਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ 0 *
> *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ** 691*
> *ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ* *193*
> *ਜਗਦੀਸ* *77*
> *ਗੁਰਮਤਿ 283 *
> *ਨਾਨਕ* *5124*
> *ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ* *ਨਾਮਿ **ਨਾਮ** 366*
> _Somehow I don't see the importance of what you say in your post! Can you please comment also in terms of gender of others as we know Guru Nanak Dev ji to be male and the name Guru Nanak is used in conjunction with_
> 
> It should be important to know why the word HAREE is not written with the word NAAM .Here lies the answer in difference between NAMM and NAME.
> The word HAREE is very much there in SGGS as NAME.
> 
> 
> 
> *ੁ ਿ ਮੁਕਤਾ*
> _Please help with the explanation. It will of course be very worthwhile as I only understand NAAMu to stand for "Name" or "Understanding". _
> 
> _There is no need to put NAAMu with a proper name! So I treat all occurrences of NAAMu with any name as to stand for "understanding" rather than a physical singular name. Please correct me or explain and help._
> _ NAAMu is a collective Noun whereas NAME is a Common NOUN.This is what I can clarify at the moment._
> 
> 
> _Now this is another perplexing comment. So goes to the question/comment that Tejwant Singh ji had earlier in the thread. So a blind and deaf will have to get it through touching the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or touching someone who already has the grace. Please explain and help._
> 
> _One can not even imagine How and What the CREATOR can do .GuR JOT(i) can do anything in any mysterious way.Is it not a mystry how GuR got transrferred from one GuRu to Another when both were present.?_
> 
> _Prakash.s.bagga ji if you imply that creator is in all, and saying it in another way, this I can relate to. As life itself can be considered a grace for all creation and everything else too._
> 
> _This goes without sayi_
> 
> If I agree with your assertions I feel like someone who is slipping down a slippery slope with no ability to brake.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria

Prakash.s.bagga veer ji thanks for your post.

I will honestly look into the following that you have stated,


			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> It should be important to know why the word HAREE is not written with  the word NAAM .Here lies the answer in difference between NAMM and NAME.
> The word HAREE is very much there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as NAME.



Just to be clear I assume you will reject the following per Mahan Kosh in your context,



> *ਹਰੀ**[SIZE=-1]     Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia[/SIZE]* [SIZE=-0] ਵਿ- ਹਰਣ ਕੀਤੀ. ਦੂਰ ਕੀਤੀ. ਮਿਟਾਈ. "ਨਾਨਕ ਤਪਤ ਹਰੀ". (ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੫)। (2) ਹਰਿਤ.  ਸਬਜ਼. "ਹਰੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਹ ਡਡੁਰੀ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਃ ੫)। (3) {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਇੱਕ ਜੱਟ ਗੋਤ੍ਰ.  ਦੇਖੋ, ਹਰੀ ਕੇ। (4) ਦੇਖੋ, ਹਰਿ। (5) ਸੰ. ਹ੍ਰੀ. ਲੱਜਾ. ਸ਼ਰਮ। (6) ਲਕ੍ਸ਼੍*ਮੀ. "ਹਰੀ  ਬਿਸਨੁ ਲੇਖੇ". (ਰਾਮਾਵ) ਲਕ੍ਸ਼੍*ਮੀ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਣਿਆ. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
> Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale);  See http://www.ik13.com[/SIZE]


It is apparent *ਹਰੀ* is not just a name in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but a word used in many interpretations and meaning but you want to take it to mean the creator is named *ਹਰੀ.  *It is mentioned about 49 times by itself as *ਹਰੀ* and at times not as a name as examples in Mahan Kosh discourse.

Do you believe there is specific power, description about *ਹਰੀ *that is not in the creator defined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?  If so I will appreciate knowing so.

As you know, *ਹਰੀ* isn't the only name mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an illustration for creator.  You yourself has mentioned the following previously,

*ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ*
*ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ*
*ਜਗਦੀਸ*
So are the above not equal to *ਹਰੀ *or lower than* ਹਰੀ *or higher than *ਹਰੀ*.  I will appreciate clarification.

Thank you.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.s.bagga veer ji thanks for your post.
> 
> I will honestly look into the following that you have stated,
> 
> 
> Just to be clear I assume you will reject the following per Mahan Kosh in your context,
> 
> It is apparent *ਹਰੀ* is not just a name in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but a word used in many interpretations and meaning but you want to take it to mean the creator is named *ਹਰੀ. *It is mentioned about 49 times by itself as *ਹਰੀ* and at times not as a name as examples in Mahan Kosh discourse.
> 
> Do you believe there is specific power, description about *ਹਰੀ *that is not in the creator defined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? If so I will appreciate knowing so.
> 
> As you know, *ਹਰੀ* isn't the only name mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as an illustration for creator. You yourself has mentioned the following previously,
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ*
> *ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ*
> *ਜਗਦੀਸ*
> So are the above not equal to *ਹਰੀ *or lower than* ਹਰੀ *or higher than *ਹਰੀ*. I will appreciate clarification.
> 
> Thank you.


 
 AMBARSARIA Ji,
One thing I like most of you is your strong desire to go ahead.Sometimes you may appear to be harsh but I never mind this.
Now coming to the point the information given in MAHAN KOSH is not 100% trustworthy .In MAHAN KOSH the proper grammer of most of the words is missing.

Let us consider the word HARI,this word is with a matra of Biharee .The word is COLLECTIVE NOUN like the word GURoo.
{ALL THE WORDS WITH A VOWEL FOR CAPITAL A ,E,I,O,U are COLLECTIVE NOUNS}
So the word HARI and GuRoo are same.

HAR(i) NAAM(u).......Here the word HAR(i) is an Adjective and NAAMu is Noun so this is a Compound Word meaning OMNIPOTENT NAAMu.

RAAM NAAMu.......Here the word RAAM is an Adjective and NAAMu is Noun so this is a Compound word meaning OMNIPRESENT.

JAGDEES.........Since this word is without a matra of Aukad under its last letter S and the same word is there in SGGS ji as JAGDEES(u) with a matra of AUKAD under letter S.
So the word JAGDEES is NOUN(PLURAL) but Adjective for the CREATOR  meaning Iswar of Jagat.

This is my understanding as per grammer of the words.

One thing I have always been telling that in Gurbani there is Nothing Above GuRoo-GuRu-GuR we have to understand this.
Any reference word NOUNor ADJECTIVE is either for GuRoo or for GuRu or For GuR.
In Gurbanee GuR JoT(i) being as EKANKAARu is the highest level of all the reference s.And the structure of GuR JOt(I) is based on the inter-relationship between the words GuRoo/GuRu/and GuR.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh

Raam is an adjective and it means omnipresent but Hari means omnipotent? How did you come to these conclusions of the meanings Prakash Singh ji?

Arn't both the attributes of Ik Ong Kaar.( Please do not argue or dispute how I pronounce Ik Ong Kaar and how you do and that is not the point which you also try to deviate to when asked about your claim of rare Sikhs, but you changed the subject when challenged about your claim).

Please quote other Gurbani verses to make your point about which words are used as omnipotent Ik ong Kaar and omnipresent Ik Ong Kaar and why?

According to my understanding, the Siharis in both make them nouns with prepositions, not adjectives as discussed before.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Prakash ji,


> One thing I like most of you is your strong desire to go ahead.Sometimes you may appear to be harsh but I never mind this.


Haha I second that. I like how immediately Ambarsaria ji picks up the initiative and starts threads or even starts giving his thoughts on a particular shabad.



> HAR(i) NAAM(u).......Here the word HAR(i) is an Adjective and NAAMu is Noun so this is a Compound Word meaning OMNIPOTENT NAAMu


I don't think ਹਰਿ is an adjective, meaning it does not describe the word after it. Like Tejwant Singh ji said it is means "of Har", like ਭਗਤਿ means "of Bhagat". 

Look at these Tuks. I think Har(i) Naam and Ram(i) Naam mean Har's Naam and Ram's Naam. What do you think?
Let's study the parts in bold. I have numbered them for convenience.

From page 10

ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
रागु गूजरी महला ४ ॥
Rāg gūjrī mėhlā 4.
Raag Goojaree, Fourth Mehl:

*ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਜਨ*1 ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਤਪੁਰਖਾ ਬਿਨਉ ਕਰਉ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
हरि के जन सतिगुर सतपुरखा बिनउ करउ गुर पासि ॥
Har ke jan saṯgur saṯpurkẖā bina▫o kara▫o gur pās.
O humble servant of the Lord, O True Guru, O True Primal Being: I offer my humble prayer to You, O Guru.

ਹਮ ਕੀਰੇ ਕਿਰਮ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥੧॥
हम कीरे किरम सतिगुर सरणाई करि दइआ नामु परगासि ॥१॥
Ham kīre kiram saṯgur sarṇā▫ī kar ḏa▫i▫ā nām pargās. ||1||
I am a mere insect, a worm. O True Guru, I seek Your Sanctuary. Please be merciful, and bless me with the Light of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੋ ਕਉ *ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ*2 ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥
मेरे मीत गुरदेव मो कउ राम नामु परगासि ॥
Mere mīṯ gurḏev mo ka▫o rām nām pargās.
O my Best Friend, O Divine Guru, please enlighten me with the Name of the Lord.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਸਖਾਈ *ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ*3 ਹਮਰੀ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमति नामु मेरा प्रान सखाई हरि कीरति हमरी रहरासि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmaṯ nām merā parān sakẖā▫ī har kīraṯ hamrī rahrās. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Naam is my breath of life. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my life's occupation. ||1||Pause||

*ਹਰਿ ਜਨ*4 ਕੇ ਵਡ ਭਾਗ ਵਡੇਰੇ ਜਿਨ *ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਰਧਾ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਆਸ*5॥
हरि जन के वड भाग वडेरे जिन हरि हरि सरधा हरि पिआस ॥
Har jan ke vad bẖāg vadere jin har har sarḏẖā har pi▫ās.
The servants of the Lord have the greatest good fortune; they have faith in the Lord, and a longing for the Lord.

*ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ* 6 ਮਿਲੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥੨॥
हरि हरि नामु मिलै त्रिपतासहि मिलि संगति गुण परगासि ॥२॥
Har har nām milai ṯaripṯāsahi mil sangaṯ guṇ pargās. ||2||
Obtaining the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, they are satisfied; joining the Sangat, the Blessed Congregation, their virtues shine forth. ||2||

ਜਿਨ *ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ*7 ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਜਮ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
जिन हरि हरि हरि रसु नामु न पाइआ ते भागहीण जम पासि ॥
Jin har har har ras nām na pā▫i▫ā ṯe bẖāghīṇ jam pās.
Those who have not obtained the Sublime Essence of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, are most unfortunate; they are led away by the Messenger of Death.

ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਏ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵੇ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
जो सतिगुर सरणि संगति नही आए ध्रिगु जीवे ध्रिगु जीवासि ॥३॥
Jo saṯgur saraṇ sangaṯ nahī ā▫e ḏẖarig jīve ḏẖarig jīvās. ||3||
Those who have not sought the Sanctuary of the True Guru and the Sangat, the Holy Congregation; cursed are their lives, and cursed are their hopes of life. ||3||

ਜਿਨ *ਹਰਿ ਜ*8 ਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਤਿਨ ਧੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲਿਖਾਸਿ ॥
जिन हरि जन सतिगुर संगति पाई तिन धुरि मसतकि लिखिआ लिखासि ॥
Jin har jan saṯgur sangaṯ pā▫ī ṯin ḏẖur masṯak likẖi▫ā likẖās.
Those humble servants of the Lord who have attained the Company of the True Guru, have such pre-ordained destiny inscribed on their foreheads.

ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ* ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ*9 ਪਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥੪॥੪॥
धनु धंनु सतसंगति जितु हरि रसु पाइआ मिलि जन नानक नामु परगासि ॥४॥४॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖan saṯsangaṯ jiṯ har ras pā▫i▫ā mil jan Nānak nām pargās. ||4||4||
Blessed, blessed is the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, where the Lord's Essence is obtained. Meeting with His humble servant, O Guru Nanak, the Light of the Naam shines forth. ||4||4||


On Raam Naam

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
गउड़ी महला १ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
Gauree, First Mehl:

*ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ*10 ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥
रामि नामि चितु रापै जा का ॥
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
उपज्मपि दरसनु कीजै ता का ॥१॥
Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||

*ਰਾਮ*11 ਨ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ॥
राम न जपहु अभागु तुमारा ॥
Rām na japahu abẖāg ṯumārā.
If you do not meditate on the Lord, it is your own misfortune.

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਦਾਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ *ਰਾਮੁ*12 ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जुगि जुगि दाता प्रभु रामु हमारा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jug jug ḏāṯā parabẖ rām hamārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In each and every age, the Great Giver is my Lord God. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ *ਰਾਮੁ*13 ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
गुरमति रामु जपै जनु पूरा ॥
Gurmaṯ rām japai jan pūrā.
Following the Guru's Teachings, the perfect humble beings meditate on the Lord.

ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਜੇ ਤੂਰਾ ॥੨॥
तितु घट अनहत बाजे तूरा ॥२॥
Ŧiṯ gẖat anhaṯ bāje ṯūrā. ||2||
Within their hearts, the unstruck melody vibrates. ||2||

ਜੋ ਜਨ ਰਾਮ *ਭਗਤਿ*14 *ਹਰਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ*15 ॥
जो जन राम भगति हरि पिआरि ॥
Jo jan rām bẖagaṯ har pi▫ār.
Those who worship the Lord and love the Lord -

ਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥੩॥
से प्रभि राखे किरपा धारि ॥३॥
Se parabẖ rākẖe kirpā ḏẖār. ||3||
showering His Mercy, God protects them. ||3||

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ *ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ*16 ॥
जिन कै हिरदै हरि हरि सोई ॥
Jin kai hirḏai har har so▫ī.
Those whose hearts are filled with the Lord, Har, Har -

ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਦਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥
तिन का दरसु परसि सुखु होई ॥४॥
Ŧin kā ḏaras paras sukẖ ho▫ī. ||4||
gazing upon the blessed vision of their darshan, peace is obtained. ||4||

ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਰਵੈ ॥
सरब जीआ महि एको रवै ॥
Sarab jī▫ā mėh eko ravai.
Among all beings, the One Lord is pervading.

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਵੈ ॥੫॥
मनमुखि अहंकारी फिरि जूनी भवै ॥५॥
Manmukẖ ahaŉkārī fir jūnī bẖavai. ||5||
The egotistical, self-willed manmukhs wander in reincarnation. ||5||

ਸੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
सो बूझै जो सतिगुरु पाए ॥
So būjẖai jo saṯgur pā▫e.
They alone understand, who have found the True Guru.

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੇ ਪਾਏ ॥੬॥
हउमै मारे गुर सबदे पाए ॥६॥
Ha▫umai māre gur sabḏe pā▫e. ||6||
Subduing their ego, they receive the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||6||

ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਕੀ ਸੰਧਿ ਕਿਉ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
अरध उरध की संधि किउ जानै ॥
Araḏẖ uraḏẖ kī sanḏẖ ki▫o jānai.
How can anyone know of the Union between the being below and the Supreme Being above?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਧਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੭॥
गुरमुखि संधि मिलै मनु मानै ॥७॥
Gurmukẖ sanḏẖ milai man mānai. ||7||
The Gurmukhs obtain this Union; their minds are reconciliated. ||7||

ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਕਉ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
हम पापी निरगुण कउ गुणु करीऐ ॥
Ham pāpī nirguṇ ka▫o guṇ karī▫ai.
I am a worthless sinner, without merit. What merit do I have?

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹੋਇ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੮॥੧੬॥
प्रभ होइ दइआलु नानक जन तरीऐ ॥८॥१६॥
Parabẖ ho▫e ḏa▫i▫āl Nānak jan ṯarī▫ai. ||8||16||
When God showers His Mercy, servant Guru Nanak is emancipated. ||8||16||

ਸੋਲਹ ਅਸਟਪਦੀਆ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਗਉੜੀ ਕੀਆ ॥
सोलह असटपदीआ गुआरेरी गउड़ी कीआ ॥
Solah asatpaḏī▫ā gu▫ārerī ga▫oṛī kī▫ā.
Sixteen Ashtapadees Of Gwaarayree Gauree||
Page 228


----------



## Tejwant Singh

According to my understanding, the Sihari in *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ * makes it  a compound noun with a preposition, not an adjective as discussed before.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh
> 
> Raam is an adjective and it means omnipresent but Hari means omnipotent? How did you come to these conclusions of the meanings Prakash Singh ji?
> 
> Arn't both the attributes of Ik Ong Kaar.( Please do not argue or dispute how I pronounce Ik Ong Kaar and how you do and that is not the point which you also try to deviate to when asked about your claim of rare Sikhs, but you changed the subject when challenged about your claim).
> 
> Please quote other Gurbani verses to make your point about which words are used as omnipotent Ik ong Kaar and omnipresent Ik Ong Kaar and why?
> 
> According to my understanding, the Siharis in both make them nouns with prepositions, not adjectives as discussed before.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh.


 
It is equally important for me to know how Ik Ong Kaar pronunciation you have accepted  .and the source for such pronunciation.It is quite possible I may not be knowing.

All attributes are Adjectives andor Nouns .All attributes have proper meanings .Since the words of attributes are from Sanskrit language You can refer any Sanskrit Dictionary to get the meaning of respective attribute.

I would like to bring to your kind notice that as per definition "Preposition"
is a word that governs a Nounor Pronoun expressing a relation to another word.Therefore it should be a separate word pre-positioned with noun.

Gurbani grammer is very much different from normal grammer.Mostly we make use of normal grammer that is why we stuck up somewhere or the other.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is equally important for me to know how Ik Ong Kaar pronunciation you have accepted  .and the source for such pronunciation.It is quite possible I may not be knowing.
> 
> All attributes are Adjectives andor Nouns .All attributes have proper meanings .Since the words of attributes are from Sanskrit language You can refer any Sanskrit Dictionary to get the meaning of respective attribute.
> 
> I would like to bring to your kind notice that as per definition "Preposition"
> is a word that governs a Nounor Pronoun expressing a relation to another word.Therefore it should be a separate word pre-positioned with noun.
> 
> Gurbani grammer is very much different from normal grammer.Mostly we make use of normal grammer that is why we stuck up somewhere or the other.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh. 

Nice try. You are using the same trick again. Rather than responding to my questions, you have twisted the thing about Ik Ong Kaar. Once again, it matters not how I or you write it. The important part is if we understand what it means.

Coming back to your post:



> *All attributes are Adjectives andor Nouns* .All attributes have proper meanings .Since the words of attributes are from Sanskrit language You can refer any Sanskrit Dictionary to get the meaning of respective attribute.



I am sorry to disappoint you but attributes mean a quality which is an adjective not a noun which is a name no matter what language we are talking about. The only difference in Sanskrit and English about adjectives is that adjectives are used in the plural form in Sanskrit and all the other languages derived from it, unlike in English where they are used in a singular form. The same is true for the Latin and all the languages derived from it. The conjugation of the verbs in Sanskrit and the Latin are also exactly the same.

Hence an attribute is an adjective, not a noun as you incorrectly claimed above. 



> I would like to bring to your kind notice that as per definition "Preposition"is a word that governs a Nounor Pronoun expressing a relation to another word.Therefore it should be a separate word pre-positioned with noun.



Please give concrete examples of your claim from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru for the above.

Yes, but that is not the case in the grammar used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Sihari is used as a preposition. 



> Gurbani grammer is very much different from normal grammer.Mostly we make use of normal grammer that is why we stuck up somewhere or the other.



Thanks, exactly my point above with which you agreed in the other thread.

Now, please respond to my original inquiry which I am re-posting it without deviating into something which is totally unrelated to it.



> Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh
> 
> Raam is an adjective and it means omnipresent but Hari means omnipotent? How did you come to these conclusions of the meanings Prakash Singh ji?
> 
> Aren't both the attributes of Ik Ong Kaar?(Please do not argue or dispute how I pronounce Ik Ong Kaar and how you do and that is not the point which you also try to deviate to when asked about your claim of rare Sikhs, but you changed the subject when challenged about your claim).
> 
> Please quote other Gurbani verses to make your point about which words are used as omnipotent Ik ong Kaar and omnipresent Ik Ong Kaar and why?
> 
> According to my understanding, the Siharis in both make them nouns with prepositions, not adjectives as discussed before.



Hope to learn from you more.

Regards

Tejwant singh


----------



## Ambarsaria

Sorry spn sangat, I am getting little confused  Let us review ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ.
Without a question ਨਾਮੁ stands for "understanding/knowledge".
As for as I can tell ਹਰਿ by itself stand for many meanings depending upon the other words it is used with.  Its general usage conversion that I see is that it is "Of Har/Hari" which are again used in the context of "creator" and not a name wih defined qualities.  The only item with defined qualities is the creator as per ੴ[/FONT].  As far as I can tell both these words (ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ) are proper Punjabi and require no Sanskrit Grammar rules.  Sanskrit at most is used in some special words which one needed to understand Sanskrit to understand meaning of.  This is very well covered in Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Sri Guru Granth Darpan.  I have yet to come across Sanskrit Grammar usage which violates Punjabi Grammar usage other than the parallels that Prof. Sahib Singh ji has clearly shown in his Vyakaaran.
Wasn't one of the ways Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji differentiated from then prevailing scriptures was that it shunned Sanskrit and secretes of its word structures and grammar structures not easily accessible to common folks. Thus making it for the people rather than the Brahmins and Sanskrit custodians and charlatans.  Are we somehow trying to re-introduce this into understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so that it becomes for the elite again!

Perhaps worth revisiting the following thread,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37161-sri-guru-granth-sahib-masses-elite.html

I would of course like to be corrected for my mistakes.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> According to my understanding, the Sihari in *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ *makes it a compound noun with a preposition, not an adjective as discussed before.[/QUOTE
> 
> There is no word like HAR (word without any Matra) in Gurbani.The word itself is HAR(i) (with a matra of sihari).
> Had there been a word HAR then your point could be correct.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Tejwant Singh said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to my understanding, the Sihari in *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ *makes it a compound noun with a preposition, not an adjective as discussed before.[/QUOTE
> 
> There is no word like HAR (word without any Matra) in Gurbani.The word itself is HAR(i) (with a matra of sihari).
> Had there been a word HAR then your point could be correct.
> Prakash.S.Bagga
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> I agree that Har is always with a matra. This is the reason my original question still stands on your claim,"Raam is an adjective and it means omnipresent but Hari means omnipotent". As you know that both omnipresent and omnipotent are adjectives. So, how can a compound noun ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ become  two adjectives? You never attempted to answer that,but used deviated tricks of other words instead, which is sad.
> 
> Prakash Singh ji, we are all Sikhs and this forum is for all to learn but one has to have an open mind and as a Sikh ready to admit when wrong.
> 
> This is going to be my last post on this subject with you because you seem adamant of being right even when proven wrong. We can move to something else that you claim to know more about so I can learn from you because I am always ready to learn. That is the reason I ask questions.
> 
> Here are the facts that contradict your claim.
> 
> ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ is a compound noun with preposition as you would see below on page 28 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. In fact not only ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ but many other words like ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ are all compound nouns with prepositions. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is filled with many more examples like these. Just search and learn from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.
> 
> 
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥  Page 28
> Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
> Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ* ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
> Har bẖagṯā har ḏẖan rās hai gur pūcẖẖ karahi vāpār.
> *The devotees of the Lord* have the Wealth and *Capital of the Lord*; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.
> *ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ = ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ (ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਰੂਪ) ਧਨ*। ਰਾਸਿ = ਸਰਮਾਇਆ, ਪੂੰਜੀ। ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ।
> 
> *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ* ਪਾਸ *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ* ਹੀ ਧਨ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸਰਮਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ (ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਹੀ) ਵਣਜ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ* ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
> Har nām salāhan saḏā saḏā vakẖar har nām aḏẖār.
> They praise the *Name of the Lord* forever and ever. *The Name of the Lord* is their Merchandise and Support.
> ਸਲਾਹਨਿ = ਸਲਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵਖਰੁ = ਸੌਦਾ। ਅਧਾਰੁ = ਆਸਰਾ।
> 
> ਭਗਤ-ਜਨ ਸਦਾ* ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ* ਸਲਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ*-ਵੱਖਰ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਹੈ
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=28&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I deliberately did not use the whole Shabad because I just wanted to show the compound nouns with HAR.
Click to expand...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> prakash.s.bagga said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> I agree that Har is always with a matra. This is the reason my original question still stands on your claim,"Raam is an adjective and it means omnipresent but Hari means omnipotent". As you know that both omnipresent and omnipotent are adjectives. So, how can a compound noun ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ become two adjectives? You never attempted to answer that,but used deviated tricks of other words instead, which is sad.
> 
> RESPOSE: Here again you are making your own statement as mine .I never mentioned that HARi NAAMu becomes two adjectives.This is your own conclusion.
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji, we are all Sikhs and this forum is for all to learn but one has to have an open mind and as a Sikh ready to admit when wrong.
> 
> RESPOSE> When I disagree to this?
> 
> 
> This is going to be my last post on this subject with you because you seem adamant of being right even when proven wrong. We can move to something else that you claim to know more about so I can learn from you because I am always ready to learn. That is the reason I ask questions.
> 
> RESPONSE:..I can also refer you like that.You may or may not like to share with me choice is yours.
> 
> Here are the facts that contradict your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ is a compound noun with preposition as you would see below on page 28 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. In fact not only ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ but many other words like ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ are all compound nouns with prepositions. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is filled with many more examples like these. Just search and learn from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.
> 
> RESPONSE.   I dont agree to this
> 
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ Page 28
> Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
> Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ* ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
> Har bẖagṯā har ḏẖan rās hai gur pūcẖẖ karahi vāpār.
> *The devotees of the Lord* have the Wealth and *Capital of the Lord*; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.
> *ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ = ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ (ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਰੂਪ) ਧਨ*। ਰਾਸਿ = ਸਰਮਾਇਆ, ਪੂੰਜੀ। ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ।
> 
> *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ* ਪਾਸ *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ* ਹੀ ਧਨ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸਰਮਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ (ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਹੀ) ਵਣਜ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ* ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
> Har nām salāhan saḏā saḏā vakẖar har nām aḏẖār.
> They praise the *Name of the Lord* forever and ever. *The Name of the Lord* is their Merchandise and Support.
> ਸਲਾਹਨਿ = ਸਲਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵਖਰੁ = ਸੌਦਾ। ਅਧਾਰੁ = ਆਸਰਾ।
> 
> ਭਗਤ-ਜਨ ਸਦਾ* ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ* ਸਲਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ*-ਵੱਖਰ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਹੈ
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=28&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I deliberately did not use the whole Shabad because I just wanted to show the compound nouns with HAR.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I dont agree to the above translation as there is no reference PARMATAMAA in the whole of SGGS.
> 
> You are not clarifying your pronunciation IK Ong Kaar Which is not there in SGGS and you expect me toclarify everything which you would like of your own.
> Disussion sharing is always a two way .process .
> One way always leads to STALEMATE like this.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga
Click to expand...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> prakash.s.bagga said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> I agree that Har is always with a matra. This is the reason my original question still stands on your claim,"Raam is an adjective and it means omnipresent but Hari means omnipotent". As you know that both omnipresent and omnipotent are adjectives. So, how can a compound noun ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ become two adjectives? You never attempted to answer that,but used deviated tricks of other words instead, which is sad.
> 
> RESPOSE: Here again you are making your own statement as mine .I never mentioned that HARi NAAMu becomes two adjectives.This is your own conclusion.
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji, we are all Sikhs and this forum is for all to learn but one has to have an open mind and as a Sikh ready to admit when wrong.
> 
> RESPOSE> When I disagree to this?
> 
> 
> This is going to be my last post on this subject with you because you seem adamant of being right even when proven wrong. We can move to something else that you claim to know more about so I can learn from you because I am always ready to learn. That is the reason I ask questions.
> 
> RESPONSE:..I can also refer you like that.You may or may not like to share with me choice is yours.
> 
> Here are the facts that contradict your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ is a compound noun with preposition as you would see below on page 28 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. In fact not only ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ but many other words like ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ are all compound nouns with prepositions. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is filled with many more examples like these. Just search and learn from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.
> 
> RESPONSE. I dont agree to this
> 
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ Page 28
> Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
> Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ* ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
> Har bẖagṯā har ḏẖan rās hai gur pūcẖẖ karahi vāpār.
> *The devotees of the Lord* have the Wealth and *Capital of the Lord*; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.
> *ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ = ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ (ਦਾ ਨਾਮ-ਰੂਪ) ਧਨ*। ਰਾਸਿ = ਸਰਮਾਇਆ, ਪੂੰਜੀ। ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ।
> 
> *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ* ਪਾਸ *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ* ਹੀ ਧਨ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸਰਮਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ (ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਹੀ) ਵਣਜ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
> 
> *ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ* ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
> Har nām salāhan saḏā saḏā vakẖar har nām aḏẖār.
> They praise the *Name of the Lord* forever and ever. *The Name of the Lord* is their Merchandise and Support.
> ਸਲਾਹਨਿ = ਸਲਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵਖਰੁ = ਸੌਦਾ। ਅਧਾਰੁ = ਆਸਰਾ।
> 
> ਭਗਤ-ਜਨ ਸਦਾ* ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ* ਸਲਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, *ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ*-ਵੱਖਰ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਹੈ
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=28&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: I deliberately did not use the whole Shabad because I just wanted to show the compound nouns with HAR.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I dont agree to the above translation as there is no reference PARMATAMAA in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> You are not clarifying your pronunciation IK Ong Kaar Which is not there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and you expect me toclarify everything which you would like of your own.
> Disussion sharing is always a two way .process .
> One way always leads to STALEMATE like this.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga
Click to expand...


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Tejwant Singh said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I dont agree to the above translation as there is no reference PARMATAMAA in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> You are not clarifying your pronunciation IK Ong Kaar Which is not there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and you expect me toclarify everything which you would like of your own.
> Disussion sharing is always a two way .process .
> One way always leads to STALEMATE like this.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> You are using the same old tricks from your bag which have not worked and will not work in Sikhi. Our loooong discussion has been about the compound nouns with prepositions which you concocted as adjectives from your trickery bag. The same trickery bag also had TRANSITIVE NOUN hidden somewhere but for some reason when challenged, you are not able to take it out because it does not exist and you know it although you are in denial.
> 
> The Punjabi and English translations given from page 28 and btw, this is just one example from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, and the Punjabi translation is by esteemed Prof. Sahib Singh whom you mentioned in the other thread for me to look for.
> 
> But now, your bag of tricks has pulled out PARMATAMAA which has nothing to do with the prepositions in compound nouns-our original discussion- as shown in both translations.
> 
> Nice try though.
> 
> As a Sikh, I like to learn from all and I have learnt a lot from you but please stop playing these tricks because they do not work.
> 
> If and when you want to talk about other subjects even PARMATAMAA, I am open to it but whenever you want to talk about grammar in the future, please use the Shabads from the SGGS rather than tricks from your bag.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
Click to expand...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> prakash.s.bagga said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> You are using the same old tricks from your bag which have not worked and will not work in Sikhi. Our loooong discussion has been about the compound nouns with prepositions which you concocted as adjectives from your trickery bag. The same trickery bag also had TRANSITIVE NOUN hidden somewhere but for some reason when challenged, you are not able to take it out because it does not exist and you know it although you are in denial.
> 
> The Punjabi and English translations given from page 28 and btw, this is just one example from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, and the Punjabi translation is by esteemed Prof. Sahib Singh whom you mentioned in the other thread for me to look for.
> 
> But now, your bag of tricks has pulled out PARMATAMAA which has nothing to do with the prepositions in compound nouns-our original discussion- as shown in both translations.
> 
> Nice try though.
> 
> As a Sikh, I like to learn from all and I have learnt a lot from you but please stop playing these tricks because they do not work.
> 
> If and when you want to talk about other subjects even PARMATAMAA, I am open to it but whenever you want to talk about grammar in the future, please use the Shabads from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather than tricks from your bag.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are no triks I can play.I cant help if you form any opinion of your own.
> Anyway,you can refer Gurbani grammer book by Prof Sahib Singh ji .
> At pp 386-387 there are several words with a matra of sihari being refered as NOUN and all these words are there in Gurbani. Now you can tell me you
> what type of NOUN such words can be considered.I do admit I am weak in my eng lish vocabulary.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga
Click to expand...


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Tejwant Singh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway,you can refer Gurbani grammer book by Prof Sahib Singh ji .
> At pp 386-387 there are several words with a matra of sihari being refered as NOUN and all these words are there in Gurbani. Now you can tell me you
> what type of NOUN such words can be considered.I do admit I am weak in my eng lish vocabulary.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Please use Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, to prove your point as requested before. I would like you to explain what parts of grammar in the words of the Shabads are and why they are used in that manner.
> 
> The whole idea of learning is to understand the Shabad and put the message into practice and that can only happen if you start quoting and explaining the whole Shabads with your grammar expertise.
> 
> You can teach us a lot like that.
> 
> Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: The word PARMATAMAA is not used by me but by esteemed Prof. Sahib Singh ji, the one you also base your grammar on, in the Shabads I posted to clarify the grammar.
Click to expand...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> prakash.s.bagga said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Please use Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, to prove your point as requested before. I would like you to explain what parts of grammar in the words of the Shabads are and why they are used in that manner.
> 
> The whole idea of learning is to understand the Shabad and put the message into practice and that can only happen if you start quoting and explaining the whole Shabads with your grammar expertise.
> 
> You can teach us a lot like that.
> 
> Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: The word PARMATAMAA is not used by me but by esteemed Prof. Sahib Singh ji, the one you also base your grammar on, in the Shabads I posted to clarify the grammar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thak you for your positive response,I shall try to do that for mutual clarification.
> I am not based on Prof Sahib Singhsji grammer alone and I disagree with the use of his word Parmatamaa in Gurbani.
> My grammer considerations are mostly from the pattern of SANSKRIT grammer which I studied in my school levlel.We are unable recognise how sanskrit grammer is applicable to Gurbani words but it is very much there.I  personally verified this pattern of grammer when applied the results are very much different.
> There are differences in understanding because of this fact only.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga
Click to expand...


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

Veer Jio I thought God can only be found through Grace ,if you think you can find him through Grammar then that's very interesting.


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Jio I thought God can only be found through Grace ,if you think you can find him through Grammar then that's very interesting.



Sp ji,

Guru Fateh.

Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent hence no need to find The Source that is not hiding anywhere but  rather present everywhere. So, in other words, we are all surrounded by the Grace of Ik Ong Kaar as long as we are not just looking for the low hanging fruits.

Grammar is for us to understand the message of our Gurus given to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, so it can be practiced in our lives which will make our lives and others', whom we get in contact with better.

Regards

Tejwant SIngh


----------



## Ambarsaria

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Jio I thought _God can only be* found* through Grace_ ,if you think you can find him through Grammar then that's very interesting.


SP ji there is nothing or no one hiding behind the door with a shining circle around their head, body or persona to find and say I am done.  

The word perhaps is understand as much all around and in each as all shows intrinsically or extrinsically just ears to here, eyes to see and all senses according their function and mind/heart to be so tuned of self.   Some will be easy and other will need some doing.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

Veer Jio's 

_You believe in Sikhi alone , I believe in God alone_, perhaps I'm mistaken in my logic but I see God in my door.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Jio's
> 
> _You believe in Sikhi alone , I believe in God alone_, perhaps I'm mistaken in my logic but _*I see God in my door*_.


 wahmundawahmundawahmunda

Show me your feet I want to touch them and be the dust below such.

I tend to understand creator everywhere not completely yet but mostly.  Challenge now is living it.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

Sat Guru Ki Seva Safal Hai,
Je Ko Kare Chit Layee.

It appears from your post
Your efforts to seek "GURU's BANI" are fruit full to yourself, and bringing realization.

Shabad is exposed and not hidden. Creating Anand (Bliss State).
Enjoying Naam Ras


One shabad understanding show way how to read/recite 
and 
makes all shabad exposed

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Sat Guru Ki Seva Safal Hai,
> Je Ko Kare Chit Layee.
> 
> It appears from your post
> Your efforts to seek "GURU's BANI" are fruit full to yourself, and bringing realization.
> 
> Shabad is exposed and not hidden. Creating Anand (Bliss State).
> Enjoying Naam Ras
> 
> 
> One shabad understanding show way how to read/recite
> and
> makes all shabad exposed
> 
> WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


 
Isn"t it important to know who is Sat Guru and How Sewa is required to be performed?
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

Veer Ji perhaps in true love everything is acquired naturally,so then there is no need to ask what is required or what to perform .Let us together throw away all cleverness and with Sat Guru's Grace may we play the game of the the Saints ,let us enter the house of love.
The Prayer - Andrea Bocelli & Josh Groban      - YouTube


----------



## ravneet_sb

As 

Ambarsaria Ji  is doing, 

with total devotion in understanding "Sukhmani"

"Satguru" is "True Guide" 

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 


सूही महला ५ ॥ 

Sūhī mėhlā 5. 

Soohee, Fifth Mehl: 


ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਜੀਵਾ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ॥ 


दरसनु देखि जीवा गुर तेरा ॥ 

Ḏarsan ḏekẖ jīvā gur ṯerā. 

Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, I live. 


ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ 


पूरन करमु होइ प्रभ मेरा ॥१॥ 

Pūran karam ho▫e parabẖ merā. ||1|| 

My karma is perfect, O my God. ||1|| 


ਇਹ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਸੁਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ॥ 


इह बेनंती सुणि प्रभ मेरे ॥ 

Ih benanṯī suṇ parabẖ mere. 

Please, listen to this prayer, O my God. 


ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਣੇ ਚੇਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 


देहि नामु करि अपणे चेरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 

Ḏėh nām kar apṇe cẖere. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

Please bless me with Your Name, and make me Your chaylaa, Your disciple. ||1||Pause|| 


TEJWANT SINGH Ji, This SABAD is related to the word GuR and Prabh.
My Understanding is as under

O GuR,I may live by seeing your DARSAN(Blessaed Vision)

My Action becomes perfect ,O Ultimate Lord.

My Ultimate Lord ,Listen to this prayer of mine

By giving NAAMu ,Make your Desciple.  Rahaa-u

On hearing your views I shall complete the balance understanding.

With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> 
> 
> सूही महला ५ ॥
> 
> Sūhī mėhlā 5.
> 
> Soohee, Fifth Mehl:
> 
> 
> ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਜੀਵਾ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ॥
> 
> 
> दरसनु देखि जीवा गुर तेरा ॥
> 
> Ḏarsan ḏekẖ jīvā gur ṯerā.
> 
> Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, I live.
> 
> 
> ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰਾ ॥੧॥
> 
> 
> पूरन करमु होइ प्रभ मेरा ॥१॥
> 
> Pūran karam ho▫e parabẖ merā. ||1||
> 
> My karma is perfect, O my God. ||1||
> 
> 
> ਇਹ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਸੁਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ॥
> 
> 
> इह बेनंती सुणि प्रभ मेरे ॥
> 
> Ih benanṯī suṇ parabẖ mere.
> 
> Please, listen to this prayer, O my God.
> 
> 
> ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਣੇ ਚੇਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> 
> 
> देहि नामु करि अपणे चेरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> 
> Ḏėh nām kar apṇe cẖere. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> 
> Please bless me with Your Name, and make me Your chaylaa, Your disciple. ||1||Pause||
> 
> 
> TEJWANT SINGH Ji, This SABAD is related to the word GuR and Prabh.
> My Understanding is as under
> 
> _O GuR, *(1) *_I may live by seeing your DARSAN(Blessaed Vision)
> 
> My Action becomes perfect ,O Ultimate Lord.
> 
> My Ultimate Lord ,Listen to this prayer of mine
> 
> _By giving NAAMu_* (2)* ,Make your Desciple.  Rahaa-u
> 
> On hearing your views I shall complete the balance understanding.
> 
> With regards
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.

Couple of questions for clarification,

_(1).  Is Gur used by you* ੴ[/FONT]*_
(2)  _Do you mean by __NAAMu_  to be _*ਗਿਆਨ*_/ _(Knowledge, understanding, insight)_

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.
> 
> Couple of questions for clarification,
> 
> _(1). Is Gur used by you* ੴ[/FONT]*_
> (2) _Do you mean by __NAAMu_ to be _*ਗਿਆਨ*_/ _(Knowledge, understanding, insight)_
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,
Yes,
GuR is for GuR JOt(i) as EKANKAARu
NAAMu is for GIYANu(Specific Single Knowledge)

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

Please interact/reject/accet or comment on thought.

Please don't go on words, these are expression to relate, the process behind action.

One perform actions, 

Conscious Mind 
Sub conscious mind
and 
Unconscious mind

When my righteous action is governed by unconscious state of mind,
than It is complete and profound.

Our unconscious mind has animal instincts, 

When "GURU's BANI" reaches that mind, 

we are awakened unconsciously, subconsciously and consciously.  

Than action is surely complete.

Before action if one seeks from unconscious mind his action will be surely complete.

As an example, from a daily common man's experience

Consciously one may think to wake up early, may have 10 alarms together,
all alarms will sleep after ringing, but dear children will not wake up.

but subconscious, 
and unconscious mind will not allow.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Please interact/reject/accet or comment on thought.
> 
> Please don't go on words, these are expression to relate, the process behind action.
> 
> One perform actions,
> 
> Conscious Mind
> Sub conscious mind
> and
> Unconscious mind
> 
> When my righteous action is governed by unconscious state of mind,
> than It is complete and profound.
> 
> Our unconscious mind has animal instincts,
> 
> When "GURU's BANI" reaches that mind,
> 
> we are awakened unconsciously, subconsciously and consciously.
> 
> Than action is surely complete.
> 
> Before action if one seeks from unconscious mind his action will be surely complete.
> 
> As an example, from a daily common man's experience
> 
> Consciously one may think to wake up early, may have 10 alarms together,
> all alarms will sleep after ringing, but dear children will not wake up.
> 
> but subconscious,
> and unconscious mind will not allow.
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


 
If THE WORD is GuRoo  How one can avoid the word/words.
Since NAAMu is  manifested from the word and every thing is NAAMu
There exists nothing without NAAMu.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

Please interact/reject/accept or comment on thought.

Penetration of "Naam" shall go to to unconscious mind, 

that's happen what when does whole minded,

with 100% focus, it penetrates deep, to higher realms.
clearing the unconscious mind.

When one's all sense's are focused to one, word penetrates.
And Naam appears to unconscious mind.

This is whole minded.

As an eaxmple,

One may become conscious,
that "I" will shed "Krodh" 

God put one's on test and trigger's situation
it again appears that moment.
Order's of "Guru's Bani" are not followed till core of mind.

Realise and follow till depth of mind, 
to have change in life.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the Shabad and  expressing what message it brings to you as a person.

I have a few comments and some questions if you do not mind.

As you did not like the word Pramaatma, the word used by Prof. Sahib Singh ji for Ik Ong Kaar, I do not like the word "Lord" to be used for Ik Ong Kaar because it has a Biblical slant and one can buy the title Lord for a few Pounds in the UK. In facts there are some Lords which are Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims in the UK along with some white Lords and it is demeaning to Ik Ong Kaar to use this. I know many  Sikh scholars have used this word in their translations because they got it from the earlier Christians "Sikh" scholars and historians who translated Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or wrote about Gurbani.

In fact I wrote a little piece regarding this explaining why we should not use the word "Lord" for Ik Ong Kaar which can be found in this forum.



> ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> 
> सूही महला ५ ॥
> 
> Sūhī mėhlā 5.
> 
> Soohee, Fifth Mehl:
> 
> 
> ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਜੀਵਾ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ॥
> दरसनु देखि जीवा गुर तेरा ॥
> 
> Ḏarsan ḏekẖ jīvā gur ṯerā.
> 
> Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, I live.
> 
> ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰਾ ॥੧॥
> पूरन करमु होइ प्रभ मेरा ॥१॥
> 
> Pūran karam ho▫e parabẖ merā. ||1||
> 
> My karma is perfect, O my God. ||1||
> 
> 
> ਇਹ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਸੁਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ॥
> इह बेनंती सुणि प्रभ मेरे ॥
> 
> Ih benanṯī suṇ parabẖ mere.
> 
> Please, listen to this prayer, O my God.
> 
> ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਣੇ ਚੇਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> देहि नामु करि अपणे चेरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> 
> Ḏėh nām kar apṇe cẖere. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> 
> Please bless me with Your Name, and make me Your chaylaa, Your disciple. ||1||Pause||





> TEJWANT SINGH Ji, This SABAD is related to the word GuR and Prabh.
> My Understanding is as under
> 
> O GuR,I may live by seeing your DARSAN(Blessaed Vision)



What do you mean by the words *blessed vision*? Isn't Ik Ong Kaar omnipresent? As The Source* is,* then it has to mean something more than just the blessed vision? This gives the notion that Ik Ong Kaar is a deity which Sikhi has no relation to.So, can you elaborate your own "vision" about it?

Secondly,  ਬੇਨੰਤੀ is not a prayer but a request. I gather that you agree with the English translation of this Shabad, otherwise, you would have written it in your own words. 



> My Action becomes perfect ,O Ultimate Lord.



We are Sikhs, which means we are always learning, hence perfection is not a destination nor a desire or our ultimate goal. Only Ik Ong Kaar is perfect. We have no idea what being the best is but we have to do our best to become better everyday with our actions as Sikhs. Don't you think so?

Do you agree or not that whenever there is a RAHAO in the Shabad, it has the central message of the Shabad? If not, then what does it mean grammatically? 

If it is, then doesn't the pangti of Rahao make a request, not a prayer- ਬੇਨੰਤੀ by a Sikh for Ik Ong Kaar to become our guide and guide us towards the right direction?

Being  ਚੇਰੇ- learners is the result of the ਬੇਨੰਤੀ- the request we have made. It is like the means justify the ends not the other way around.

So, I am a bit confused about your interpretation and your agreeing with the English translation which is distorting.



> My Action becomes perfect ,O Ultimate Lord.
> 
> My Ultimate Lord ,Listen to this prayer of mine
> 
> By giving NAAMu ,Make your Desciple. Rahaa-u
> 
> On hearing your views I shall complete the balance understanding.



More hearing from you.

Thanks for this. I am sure in this way we can create a better understanding about Gurbani from all aspects both grammatically and spiritually. So, lets continue with this kind of interaction.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Ambarsaria

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Let us together *throw away all cleverness* and with Sat Guru's Grace may we _play the game_ of the the Saints ,let us enter the house of love.


_SP ji I am right now working at a diamond mine.  I am studying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and finding endless riches.  I hardly use any *cleverness* in my study.  I am in humility and awe most of the time.  

_Remember diamonds are well liked by many,_

Shirley Bassey - Diamonds Are Forever (From "Divas Are Forever" DVD)      - YouTube

_Then one learns to love Gurbani as,_

Dame Shirley Bassey - Where Do I Begin (Love Story) & Something      - YouTube

_And my Veer sp ji that is the way it is,_

CÃ©line Dion - That's The Way It Is      - YouTube

_So to each their own.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
First of all I may make it clear that there is no claim  that any interpretation from my side is going to be 100% correct.Since the judgement about the correctness of interpretation is to be made by a person with his own level of understanding.
Only thing is we can share our views to get the meanings of Gurbani verses  as close to Gurmati way as possible.
You can understand that Gurbani interpretation is not an easy task it would require a lot of in depth knowledge of each and every word along with grammer implications.
I feel at this juncture if we can understand only Basics of Gurbani concept that should be enough.
I intend to continue sharing SABAD wherin Basics of Gurbani understanding is vital.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
You should agree to the fact that every word NOUN/Adjective word has meaning.
So we have to make use of the meanings avaiable as per Sources.
There is no question of liking or disliking by me for any word as sch.I respect all the words which can be used correctly for Gurbani words  but its use should conform to the grammer of Gurbani.
Because we domt make use of the word Parmaatma as per grammer of the word.Using in a wrong way makes the meanings of Gurbani message incorrect.There are words like Parmaatamu/Parmaatam used in Gurbani correctly as per grammer.

We may not like the use of word LORD for reasons given in your post.But we may like to use the word GOD which can not be used for any reference in Gurani as per grammer of the word GOD. I understand the word GOD is a most respectable word in other philosophy for the creator.So I dorespect this word too but its use for any reference in Gurbani is not justified.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

> _SP ji I am right now working at a diamond mine_


 
Veer ji That is right , study what you have mined ,you are indeed blessed ,alas I know not how to mine ,so I have befriended the owner, in order that he may bless me with _light_ duties.
Sarah Brightman & Andrea Bocelli - Time to Say Goodbye  1998 Video  stereo widescreen      - YouTube


----------



## Taranjeet singh

Well said Spji...Was it easy to befriend? It seems the simplest way for a layman like me. 0


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> First of all I may make it clear that there is no claim  that any interpretation from my side is going to be 100% correct.Since the judgement about the correctness of interpretation is to be made by a person with his own level of understanding.


I beg to differ with you. As you claim to know Gurbani grammar and as you have rightly said many times that without understanding grammar in Gurbani, one can not understand the message, so the interpretation coming from you is expected to be better than from any one of us here who do not understand the grammar as well. You have the unique talent that we do not possess.

But, now you are changing your tune for some reason. Anyone would expect the right interpretation so one can understand the Gurus', especially from yourself who understands the grammar otherwise understanding grammar becomes useless and futile if it is not applied in the right way, you have said this yourself many times.

*1*.





> Only thing is we can share our views to get the meanings of Gurbani verses  as close to Gurmati way as possible.


But you have not shared your views. You have copied and pasted a distorted version of the  English interpretation which I pointed out to you. With this the grammar's usage is distorted too. 

I have asked you some questions based on your interpretation which you have not responded to. I will be waiting for the responses.



> You can understand that Gurbani interpretation is not an easy task it would require a lot of in depth knowledge of each and every word along with grammer implications.


I totally agree with you.Exactly my point. The question arises Bagga ji, Why should it be easy? 

Then how can posting distorted and incorrect English translations of Gurbani is right, especially from you who has  deep knowledge of Gurbani grammar?

*2*.





> I feel at this juncture if we can understand only Basics of Gurbani concept that should be enough.


You are contradicting in your quotes marked number 1 and 2



> I intend to continue sharing SABAD wherin Basics of Gurbani understanding is vital.


Thanks for that, but if you want the Sangat to understand Gurbani based on your Gurbani's grammar knowledge, then it becomes your duty as a Sikh to  you interpret the whole Shabad fully, in your own words in English and share it with us along with your grammar knowledge. It would be demeaning to Gurbani and to our Gurus to just pick and choose  some words and it would not serve any purpose either to anyone as far as understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji message is concerned. No one can eat the half cooked Roti.

So, I will be waiting for your  own interpretations of these two Shabads that you chose showing us the grammar in them so we can learn from them and become better Sikhs. We need your SEVA in this.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your post.

You write:



> You should agree to the fact that every word NOUN/Adjective word has meaning.



I totally agree with you, that is why posting distorted and incorrect translations in English of Gurbani is doing disservice as mentioned in my previous post because then the  usage of Noun/adjective in the incorrect and distorted version becomes incorrect too. I am sure you will agree with me on that.



> So we have to make use of the meanings avaiable as per Sources.



I beg to differ with you. There are many sources available. The non distorted version can easily be used through the right sources.



> There is no question of liking or disliking by me for any word as sch


.

I do not want to get into a circular argument but those were exactly your words when Prof. Sahib Singh ji used Pramaatma to explain and interpret the meaning of Ik Ong Kaar. We have to use some words which are not in the SGGS, our only Guru to make things easier for others and Prof. Sahib Singh has done a tremendous job in my view regarding this.



> I respect all the words which can be used correctly for Gurbani words  but its use should conform to the grammer of Gurbani.



I agree. Thanks for pointing this out. Now it becomes your duty as a Sikh to do this SEVA of teaching us grammar by interpreting the whole Shabad, not picking and choosing some words of your fancy.



> Because we domt make use of the word Parmaatma as per grammer of the word.Using in a wrong way makes the meanings of Gurbani message incorrect.There are words like Parmaatamu/Parmaatam used in Gurbani correctly as per grammer.



It was about the interpretation as mentioned before. Nothing to do with the words used in the SGGS, our only Guru and Prof. Sahib Singh did not use this word instead of what is in the Gurbani in a verse. You know that.



> We may not like the use of word LORD for reasons given in your post.But we may like to use the word GOD which can not be used for any reference in Gurani as per grammer of the word GOD. I understand the word GOD is a most respectable word in other philosophy for the creator.So I dorespect this word too but its use for any reference in Gurbani is not justified.



That is why I only use Ik Ong Kaar or The Source. I do not use any other word.

I know, you disagree with me about my usage of Ik Ong Kaar because for you EKANKAAR is the right word which I tend to disagree with.

BTW, are you aware that there is a Radasoami sect managed by some white guys with the same name?

http://www.eckankar.org

Check it out.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Harry Haller

re: eckankar.org

I think you have this wrong Tejwantji, this looks like a firm of accountants


----------



## Tejwant Singh

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

No it is not. But it takes a lot of money from its followers here is the full address:

http://www.eckankar.org/?source=google_home2&gclid=CKKyi7v-8qwCFQg1hwodUUbVNA


----------



## Harry Haller

Tejwantji, 

Well they look like accountants, I was expecting flowing hair, long beards, john lennon glasses

I would find it hard to accept my leader as a man who looked like an accountant and was called Harold.....

sorry no reply needed, dont wish to go off topic


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> You write:
> 
> I beg to differ with you. As you claim to know Gurbani grammar and as you have rightly said many times that without understanding grammar in Gurbani, one can not understand the message, so the interpretation coming from you is expected to be better than from any one of us here who do not understand the grammar as well. You have the unique talent that we do not possess.
> 
> RESPONSE.................I never made such a claim of knowing Gurbani grammer (Making claim is different than knowing about something )
> 
> But, now you are changing your tune for some reason. Anyone would expect the right interpretation so one can understand the Gurus', especially from yourself who understands the grammar otherwise understanding grammar becomes useless and futile if it is not applied in the right way, you have said this yourself many times.
> 
> RESPONSE.......I find hard to do so because of wide variation in the understanding of sharing of views.
> 
> *1*.But you have not shared your views. You have copied and pasted a distorted version of the English interpretation which I pointed out to you. With this the grammar's usage is distorted too.
> 
> RESPONSE.......In that case I should not share views because I fail to understand your definition of sharing the views.In the present scenario you may find my every view as distorted of the already English interpretation.
> This is your own look out I cant help it.
> 
> I have asked you some questions based on your interpretation which you have not responded to. I will be waiting for the responses.
> 
> I totally agree with you.Exactly my point. The question arises Bagga ji, Why should it be easy?
> 
> Then how can posting distorted and incorrect English translations of Gurbani is right, especially from you who has deep knowledge of Gurbani grammar?
> 
> *2*.You are contradicting in your quotes marked number 1 and 2
> 
> Thanks for that, but if you want the Sangat to understand Gurbani based on your Gurbani's grammar knowledge, then it becomes your duty as a Sikh to you interpret the whole Shabad fully, in your own words in English and share it with us along with your grammar knowledge. It would be demeaning to Gurbani and to our Gurus to just pick and choose some words and it would not serve any purpose either to anyone as far as understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji message is concerned. No one can eat the half cooked Roti.
> 
> So, I will be waiting for your own interpretations of these two Shabads that you chose showing us the grammar in them so we can learn from them and become better Sikhs. We need your SEVA in this.
> 
> RESPONSE..........Well I am sorry to say that I will not be able to satisfy your unending requirements.
> 
> You can ask me specific question I can resond to only that much I can do.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh


 
In fact I am unable to understand your expectations .
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Thanks for your post.
> 
> You write:
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with you, that is why posting distorted and incorrect translations in English of Gurbani is doing disservice as mentioned in my previous post because then the usage of Noun/adjective in the incorrect and distorted version becomes incorrect too. I am sure you will agree with me on that.
> 
> RESPONSE..........Obviously this is true
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ with you. There are many sources available. The non distorted version can easily be used through the right sources.
> 
> RESPONSE.............It would be nice of you to tell some better source.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I do not want to get into a circular argument but those were exactly your words when Prof. Sahib Singh ji used Pramaatma to explain and interpret the meaning of Ik Ong Kaar. We have to use some words which are not in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru to make things easier for others and Prof. Sahib Singh has done a tremendous job in my view regarding this.
> 
> 
> RESPONSE....If understand the grammer of the word Parmaatama you should have the same conclusion as me.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Thanks for pointing this out. Now it becomes your duty as a Sikh to do this SEVA of teaching us grammar by interpreting the whole Shabad, not picking and choosing some words of your fancy.
> 
> RESONSE............We will have to make some carrect Modus operandi for this.I feel this can not be casual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was about the interpretation as mentioned before. Nothing to do with the words used in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru and Prof. Sahib Singh did not use this word instead of what is in the Gurbani in a verse. You know that.
> 
> RESPONSE..........I disagree to this view.We should be able to interprate Gurbani using the words from Gurbani only.Otherwise it will lead us nowhere.
> 
> 
> 
> That is why I only use Ik Ong Kaar or The Source. I do not use any other word.
> 
> I dond find this interpretation in SGGS so I cant give any comment It is yourown choice.
> 
> I know, you disagree with me about my usage of Ik Ong Kaar because for you EKANKAAR is the right word which I tend to disagree with.
> 
> BTW, are you aware that there is a Radasoami sect managed by some white guys with the same name?
> 
> I know several other organisation like that .So what this means for me.?
> Nothing .
> 
> 
> http://www.eckankar.org
> 
> Check it out.
> 
> Thanks & regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh


 
I have resonded to your most of questions.
Let me be very clear unless I am sure about your level of understanding of Gurbani grammer it would be very difficult for me to share the views.
It is felt you only want me to go on writing for all your negative comments at the end.
I am going to be busy with my profession .If yu ask me any specific question ,as a duty of Gursikh it would be my pleasure to do that.

With warm regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

Prakash.S.Bagga  said:
			
		

> That is why I only use Ik Ong Kaar or The Source. I do not use any other word.



Veer ji thanks for your response.  Well stated. 

I do believe the following initiates a definition of *ੴ* ([/FONT]Ik▫oaŉkār) and that it cannot be fully defined per-se by anyone,




> *ੴ[/FONT]*
> Akwl purK ie`k hY
> God/creator is one
> *Note:  *Prakash.S.Bagga ji I assume you question the above and are saying that it is not defineable as *ੴ* ([/FONT]Ik▫oaŉkār) but only as EKANKAAR(u) as such is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji more than* ੴ *and is more definable in those contexts!
> 
> 
> *ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥*
> 
> ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> Known as the eternal being, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.​


Any comments and clarification appreciated.

Sat Sri Akal.
*
*​


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

AMBARSARIA Ji,
My understanding about Creator in Gurbani is also different.Accordingly CREATOR in Gurbani is not something ONE  CREATOR is a SYSTEM  with different references as

A......GuR....... (GuR JoTi) GuRoo-GuR.....A SINGLE WAVE OF THE WORD GuRoo.

B......PRABH JoT(i)  The expansion of GuR -JoT(i) being refered as Iku EKANKAAR.

C......ONGKAAR

The  Source of the above SYSTEM is SABADu GuRoo.

Now you can see how CREATOR in Gurbaani can be considered as related to being ONE.
I am sure it is difficult to agree for this.But this is the fact of Gurbani  and this is how I have understood from Gurbani.

NowI expect you should present me your point of view for my consideration for Ik Ong Kaar and its definition.I am prepared to accept if the explanation is as per Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I have resonded to your most of questions.
> *Let me be very clear unless I am sure about your level of understanding of Gurbani grammer it would be very difficult for me to share the views.*
> It is felt you only want me to go on writing for all your negative comments at the end.
> I am going to be busy with my profession .If yu ask me any specific question ,as a duty of Gursikh it would be my pleasure to do that.
> 
> With warm regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the warning in* bold* above. You mean you can challenge other people's understanding of grammar but no one can challenge yours. Isn't this one of the 5 thieves that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru advises us not to become the slave of?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: It is GRAMM*A*R not GRAMM*E*R as you have been writing all along.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> Thanks for the warning in* bold* above. You mean you can challenge other people's understanding of grammar but no one can challenge yours. Isn't this one of the 5 thieves that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru advises us not to become the slave of?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh
> 
> PS: It is GRAMMAR not GRAMMER as you have been writing all along.


 
TEJWANT SINGH Ji,These are your personal views I dont feel making comment .I thank for your suggection correct spelling of the word as Grammar.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,These are your personal views I dont feel making comment .I thank for your suggection correct spelling of the word as Grammar.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh,

You are incorrect once again. The following are your words, not mine. Mine was a question regarding your following claim, that can you only judge other people's Gurbani GrammAr but others can not judge yours?

Please re- read your own claim again and elaborate what you are trying to say. 

*



			Let me be very clear unless I am sure about your level of understanding of Gurbani grammer it would be very difficult for me to share the views.
		
Click to expand...

*
Your claim implies that you are the only one who knows Gurbani grammAr. It is rather arrogant and Gurbani teaches us how not to act like this. Don't you think?

It is our duty as Sikhs to be truthful because we are truth seekers. I am sure you are aware of that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NowI expect you should present me your point of view for my consideration for Ik Ong Kaar and its definition._I am prepared to accept if the explanation is as per Gurbani._
> Prakash.S.Bagga


_Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji thanks for your response.  I want to understand the above sentences as you have mentioned it in some other posts as well.  I believe it has been mentioned as Gurbani can only be understood through words used in Gurbani as another way of saying the same thing.  Why should Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji be used as a dictionary of Punjabi language?  Guru ji did not mean it that way, Baba Farid ji hundreds of years before Guru Nanak ji did not write it that way neither did Kabir ji and all.

Gurbani is written in Punjabi with words from other languages.  If Guru ji and writers were alive and here they will explain and it is our duty to understand such through people who can dissect and clarify such special words.  Prof. Sahib Singh ji has done, Kahan Singh Nabha ji has done, and many others have tried to help.  Why should I be not convinced by such if I need help for such special cases if I do dwell on such and be convinced so through my own sanity and study.  Much of rest I understand because it is Punjabi.  The following some examples of Sanskrit constructs,
_ 


> ੴ
> <> au~cwrn vyly ies dy iqMn ih`sy kIqy jWdy hn-1, E Aqy > ; ies dw pwT hY ‘iek EAMkwr’[ iqMn ih`sy v`Ko v`Kry au~cwirAW ieauN bxdy hn:-
> 1-ie`k[ E-EAM[ > -kwr[‘E’ sMsik®q dw Sbd hY[
> 
> eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
> 
> so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr" Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[
> 
> ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ:  ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ = (ਸੰ. एकाक्षर) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ।
> 
> ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ਸੁੱਧ ਅੱਖਰ, ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼।


Please comment.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> 
> You are incorrect once again. The following are your words, not mine. Mine was a question regarding your following claim, that can you only judge other people's Gurbani GrammAr but others can not judge yours?
> 
> Please re- read your own claim again and elaborate what you are trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> Your claim implies that you are the only one who knows Gurbani grammAr. It is rather arrogant and Gurbani teaches us how not to act like this. Don't you think?
> 
> It is our duty as Sikhs to be truthful because we are truth seekers. I am sure you are aware of that.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh


 
TEJWANT SINGh Ji,
I would not deny the quote mentioned by you.It is so because I felt you never clarify your understanding and every time I was being expected to do that.There was nothing to offend.I would certainly feel sorry if my view have a tint of offending a person like you.Since begening we have been sharing our views in a most positive way but recenly I noticed something different which I am hard to believe that such can be the views from S TEJWANT SINGH ji.


I am no one to make any claim for any knowledge so far as Gurbani understanding is concerned.I simply presented my observations and my understanding acquired accordingly thru the grace of SATiGuRu.
If you take this as arrogance it may be your own consideration.

With regards,
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji thanks for your response. I want to understand the above sentences as you have mentioned it in some other posts as well. I believe it has been mentioned as Gurbani can only be understood through words used in Gurbani as another way of saying the same thing. Why should Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji be used as a dictionary of Punjabi language? Guru ji did not mean it that way, Baba Farid ji hundreds of years before Guru Nanak ji did not write it that way neither did Kabir ji and all._
> 
> _Gurbani is written in Punjabi with words from other languages. If Guru ji and writers were alive and here they will explain and it is our duty to understand such through people who can dissect and clarify such special words. Prof. Sahib Singh ji has done, Kahan Singh Nabha ji has done, and many others have tried to help. Why should I be not convinced by such if I need help for such special cases if I do dwell on such and be convinced so through my own sanity and study. Much of rest I understand because it is Punjabi. The following some examples of Sanskrit constructs,_
> Please comment.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,

My conviction for the pronunciation is from Gurbani.If you are convinced from other source I have no problem.But certainly we would differ in understanding.
I myself have learnt a lot from the work of Prof Sahib Singh ji. Later on I consulted many other books.What I found that our scholars did not apply grammar the way they presented.You would recall once I had said if Prof Sahib Singh ji had applied grammar understanding sincerely his contribution would have been No One in the world.

You will appreciate a fact that the correct understanding of the Pronunciation of the SYMBOL and its meaning are very crucial to the whole understanding of Gurbani.

As we all know the Script of Gurbani language is Gurmukhi. First we should have perfect knowledge of the grammar of Gurmukhi script in Gurbani.We should understand what is the pattern of Gurbani words for its grammar .
If at all,We require to use any word out of Gurbani that should be satisfying the pattern of Gurbani grammar.otherise its use will be confusing.

We make use of words which are out of Gurbani without considering its proper application as per pattern of Gurbani grammar so this results in deviation or distortion in the overall understanding of Gurbani.
This is the reason I maintain that we should use and understand the words from within Gurbani only.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji thanks for your response. I want to understand the above sentences as you have mentioned it in some other posts as well. I believe it has been mentioned as Gurbani can only be understood through words used in Gurbani as another way of saying the same thing. Why should Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji be used as a dictionary of Punjabi language? Guru ji did not mean it that way, Baba Farid ji hundreds of years before Guru Nanak ji did not write it that way neither did Kabir ji and all._
> 
> _Gurbani is written in Punjabi with words from other languages. If Guru ji and writers were alive and here they will explain and it is our duty to understand such through people who can dissect and clarify such special words. Prof. Sahib Singh ji has done, Kahan Singh Nabha ji has done, and many others have tried to help. Why should I be not convinced by such if I need help for such special cases if I do dwell on such and be convinced so through my own sanity and study. Much of rest I understand because it is Punjabi. The following some examples of Sanskrit constructs,_
> Please comment.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,

From SANSKRIT words only I know that the word "Ong" is SINGULAR Femine Gender.
The word Ong is created from a letter "O" in Gurmukhi script and this letter is having a "BINDI" on top of it So it is written in Gurmukhi with two letters O and Ang as the word  OAng or Ong.

I may suggest you that look at the grammar of the words IK and EK and also see the rule of grammar for  connecting two  Noun Words in Gurbani. I hope you may get some thing to decide about this.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> From SANSKRIT words only I know that the word "Ong" is SINGULAR Femine Gender.
> The word Ong is created from a letter "O" in Gurmukhi script and this letter is having a "BINDI" on top of it So it is written in Gurmukhi with two letters O and Ang as the word  OAng or Ong.
> 
> I may suggest you that look at the grammar of the words IK and EK and also see the rule of grammar for  connecting two  Noun Words in Gurbani. I hope you may get some thing to decide about this.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for you answer.

Please specifically answer by marking what is wrong in the explanation given by Prof. Sahib Singh ji as we/you already established that God/Creator is genderless.




> [URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A9%B4"]ੴ





> <>  au~cwrn vyly ies dy iqMn ih`sy kIqy jWdy hn-1, E Aqy > ; ies dw pwT  hY ‘iek EAMkwr’[ iqMn ih`sy v`Ko v`Kry au~cwirAW ieauN bxdy hn:-
> 1-ie`k[ E-EAM[ > -kwr[‘E’ sMsik®q dw Sbd hY[
> 
> eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
> 
> so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr" Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[


[/URL]Please be specific and mark the above or add so that we may understand.

The above has nothing to do with Ambarsaria, it is Prof. Sahib Singh ji's work.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for you answer.
> 
> Please specifically answer by marking what is wrong in the explanation given by Prof. Sahib Singh ji as we/you already established that God/Creator is genderless.
> 
> Please be specific and mark the above or add so that we may understand.
> 
> The above has nothing to do with Ambarsaria, it is Prof. Sahib Singh ji's work.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA ji ,
I am unable to decipher the letters in my Computor screen,You can mention the page no relared to Prof Sahib Singh jis writing.

In Gurbani the words (SINGULAR/PLURAL-FeminGen/Mascu Gend) 
are for refrence for designating the quality characteristics of GuR JoTi as GuRu-GuR.

It is NAAMu as CREATOR which is always GENDERLESS.

We should carefully understand the difference in the grammar of SABADu and NAAMu.SABADu as GuRoo is GENDERLESS .

Other words as SABADu/SABAD are properly designated with gender and number class.

These are my observations from Gurbani for consideration only.
No Personal claim.Every thing subject to sharing of views.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA ji ,
> I am unable to decipher the letters in my Computor screen,You can mention the page no relared to Prof Sahib Singh jis writing.
> 
> In Gurbani the words (SINGULAR/PLURAL-FeminGen/Mascu Gend)
> are for refrence for designating the quality characteristics of GuR JoTi as GuRu-GuR.
> 
> It is NAAMu as CREATOR which is always GENDERLESS.
> 
> We should carefully understand the difference in the grammar of SABADu and NAAMu.SABADu as GuRoo is GENDERLESS .
> 
> Other words as SABADu/SABAD are properly designated with gender and number class.
> 
> These are my observations from Gurbani for consideration only.
> No Personal claim.Every thing subject to sharing of views.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Veer ji I work with the .pdf version and page number there is pages 33-34.

The PDF version can be downloaded from the following,

http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi/index.htm

1-ie`k[ E-EAM[ > -kwr[
  ‘E’ sMsik®q dw Sbd hY[ Amr koS Anuswr ies dy iqMn ArQ hn:-
 (1)  vyd Awid Drm-pusqkW dy ArMB Aqy A^Ir ivc, Ardws jW iksy piv~qr Drm-kwrj dy ArMB ivc A`Kr 'EN' piv~qr A`Kr jwx ky vriqAw jWdw hY[​ (2)  iksy hukm jW pRSn Awidk dy au~qr ivc Awdr Aqy siqkwr nwl ‘jI hW’ AwKxw[ so, ‘EN’ dw ArQ hY 'jI hW'[​ (3)  EN-bRhm[​  iehnW ivcoN ikhVw ArQ ies Sbd dw ie`Qy ilAw jwxw hY-ies ƒ idRVH krn leI Sbd 'EN' dy pihlW '1' ilK id`qw hY[ ies dw Bwv ieh hY ik ie`Qy 'EN' dw ArQ hY 'auh hsqI jo iek hY, ijs vrgw hor koeI nhIN hY Aqy ijs ivc ieh swrw jgq smw jWdw hY['
  qIjw ih`sw >  hY, ijs dw au~cwrn hY 'kwr'[ 'kwr' sMsik®q dw iek ipCyqr hY[ Awm qOr qy ieh ipCyqr 'nWv' dy A^Ir ivc vriqAw jWdw hY[ ies dw ArQ hY 'iek-rs, ijs ivc qbdIlI nw Awvy['
  ies 'ipCyqr' dy lwx nwl 'nWv' dy ilMg ivc koeI &rk nhIN pYNdw; Bwv, jy 'nWv' pihlW puilMg hY, qW ies 'ipCyqr' dy lgwieAW BI puilMg hI rihMdw hY, jy pihlW iesqRI ilMg hovy qW ies ipCyqr dy smyq BI iesqRI ilMg hI rihMdw hY; ijvyN, puilMg:-
 nµnwkwru n koie kryeI [
rwKY Awip vifAweI dyeI [2[2[   (gauVI m: 1
 kImiq so pwvY Awip jwxwvY
Awip ABulu n Buley [
jY jYkwru krih quDu Bwvih
gur kY sbid Amuley [9[2[5[   (sUhI m: 1
 shjy ruxJuxkwru suhwieAw [
qw kY Gir pwrbRhmu smwieAw [7[3[   (gauVI m: 5
  iesqRI ilMg:-
 dieAw DwrI iqin Dwrxhwr [
bMDn qy hoeI Cutkwr [7[4[   (rwmklI m: 5
 myG smY mor inriqkwr [
cMdu dyiK ibgsih kaulwr [4[2[   (bsMq m: 5
 dyiK rUpu Aiq AnUpu moh mhw mg BeI [
ikMknI sbd Jnqkwr Kylu pwih jIau [1[6[(sveIey mhly cauQy ky
  ies ipCyqr dy l`gx nwl iehnW SbdW  dy ArQ ieauN krny hn:-
  nµnwkwru— iek-rs ienkwr, sdw leI ienkwr[
  jYkwru— lgwqwr 'jY jY' dI gUMj[
  inriqkwr— iek rs nwc[
  Jnqkwr— iek-rs sohxI Awvwz[
  ipCyqr 'kwr' dy lwx qoN ibnw Aqy lgwx nwl, dohW qrHW dy SbdW dy ArQW ivc &rk hT ilKy pRmwx qoN sp`St ho jWdw hY:-
  "Gr mih Gru idKwie dyie, so siqguru purKu sujwxu[
  pMc sbid Duinkwr Duin, qh bwjY sbdu nIswxu [1[27[
  Duin-Awvwz[ Duinkwr-lgwqwr nwd, Aqu`t Awvwz[ iesy qrHW:
 mnu BUlo isir AwvY Bwru[
mnu mwnY hir eykMkwr [2[2[(gauVI m: 1
  eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
  so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr" Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[
 

I have posted essentially the same information in the following thread if it is readable perhaps,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html#post154763

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> Veer ji I work with the .pdf version and page number there is pages 33-34.
> 
> The PDF version can be downloaded from the following,
> 
> http://www.gurbanifiles.org/gurmukhi/index.htm
> 
> 1-ie`k[ E-EAM[ > -kwr[
> ‘E’ sMsik®q dw Sbd hY[ Amr koS Anuswr ies dy iqMn ArQ hn:-
> 
> (1) vyd Awid Drm-pusqkW dy ArMB Aqy A^Ir ivc, Ardws jW iksy piv~qr Drm-kwrj dy ArMB ivc A`Kr 'EN' piv~qr A`Kr jwx ky vriqAw jWdw hY[​
> 
> 
> (2) iksy hukm jW pRSn Awidk dy au~qr ivc Awdr Aqy siqkwr nwl ‘jI hW’ AwKxw[ so, ‘EN’ dw ArQ hY 'jI hW'[​
> 
> 
> (3) EN-bRhm[​
> 
> iehnW ivcoN ikhVw ArQ ies Sbd dw ie`Qy ilAw jwxw hY-ies ƒ idRVH krn leI Sbd 'EN' dy pihlW '1' ilK id`qw hY[ ies dw Bwv ieh hY ik ie`Qy 'EN' dw ArQ hY 'auh hsqI jo iek hY, ijs vrgw hor koeI nhIN hY Aqy ijs ivc ieh swrw jgq smw jWdw hY['
> qIjw ih`sw > hY, ijs dw au~cwrn hY 'kwr'[ 'kwr' sMsik®q dw iek ipCyqr hY[ Awm qOr qy ieh ipCyqr 'nWv' dy A^Ir ivc vriqAw jWdw hY[ ies dw ArQ hY 'iek-rs, ijs ivc qbdIlI nw Awvy['
> ies 'ipCyqr' dy lwx nwl 'nWv' dy ilMg ivc koeI &rk nhIN pYNdw; Bwv, jy 'nWv' pihlW puilMg hY, qW ies 'ipCyqr' dy lgwieAW BI puilMg hI rihMdw hY, jy pihlW iesqRI ilMg hovy qW ies ipCyqr dy smyq BI iesqRI ilMg hI rihMdw hY; ijvyN, puilMg:-
> nµnwkwru n koie kryeI [
> rwKY Awip vifAweI dyeI [2[2[ (gauVI m: 1
> kImiq so pwvY Awip jwxwvY
> Awip ABulu n Buley [
> jY jYkwru krih quDu Bwvih
> gur kY sbid Amuley [9[2[5[ (sUhI m: 1
> shjy ruxJuxkwru suhwieAw [
> qw kY Gir pwrbRhmu smwieAw [7[3[ (gauVI m: 5
> iesqRI ilMg:-
> dieAw DwrI iqin Dwrxhwr [
> bMDn qy hoeI Cutkwr [7[4[ (rwmklI m: 5
> myG smY mor inriqkwr [
> cMdu dyiK ibgsih kaulwr [4[2[ (bsMq m: 5
> dyiK rUpu Aiq AnUpu moh mhw mg BeI [
> ikMknI sbd Jnqkwr Kylu pwih jIau [1[6[(sveIey mhly cauQy ky
> ies ipCyqr dy l`gx nwl iehnW SbdW dy ArQ ieauN krny hn:-
> nµnwkwru— iek-rs ienkwr, sdw leI ienkwr[
> jYkwru— lgwqwr 'jY jY' dI gUMj[
> inriqkwr— iek rs nwc[
> Jnqkwr— iek-rs sohxI Awvwz[
> ipCyqr 'kwr' dy lwx qoN ibnw Aqy lgwx nwl, dohW qrHW dy SbdW dy ArQW ivc &rk hT ilKy pRmwx qoN sp`St ho jWdw hY:-
> "Gr mih Gru idKwie dyie, so siqguru purKu sujwxu[
> pMc sbid Duinkwr Duin, qh bwjY sbdu nIswxu [1[27[
> Duin-Awvwz[ Duinkwr-lgwqwr nwd, Aqu`t Awvwz[ iesy qrHW:
> mnu BUlo isir AwvY Bwru[
> mnu mwnY hir eykMkwr [2[2[(gauVI m: 1
> eykMkwru-eyk EAMkwr, auh iek EAM jo iek-rs hY, jo hr QW ivAwpk hY[
> so, "<>" dw au~cwrn hY " iek (eyk) EAMkwr" Aqy iesdw ArQ hY "iek Akwl purK, jo iek-rs ivAwpk hY"[
> 
> 
> I have posted essentially the same information in the following thread if it is readable perhaps,
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html#post154763
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,
Since I was going thru the link .My answer to this is posted in the thread
Review Ik onkaar.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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