# Is Sikhism Against People Who Use Their Minds?



## kds1980 (Sep 21, 2006)

i am debating on the other side with some people
they says that in sikhi why bad words are written for people which uses their own mind (manmukhs.)everybody cannot follow gurmat then why guru ji wrote bad words for them?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Sep 22, 2006)

Gurfateh

Manmukh is one who follows own mind or ego.In us as whole world belong to God so Mind is not ours so Mind is of God and God only uses that.

Yuo can ask those people that can they explain,what mind is? as per scince we have brain,while mind is more a sort of hypothication while as per Yoga mind is very small thing and somewhere near heart.

when we die it leaves the body and is clubbed with soul so soul+ mind is individual spirit.When ego or mind is killed by mercy of Akal,we reach state of soul only and that is Akal and state is of alive while lving.Like mind we do not use our body but God uses the body and make it move and that body we thing as our own due to our mind/ego.


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## kds1980 (Sep 22, 2006)

<<manmukh is one who follows own mind or ego.In us as whole world belong to God so Mind is not ours so Mind is of God and God only uses that.>>

but if someone don't beleive in god but living an honest and truthful life
the is he also a manmukh?after all we coudn't convince everyone about god.


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## max314 (Sep 22, 2006)

It seems to me that the understanding of the terms "_gurmukh_" and "_manmukh_" have been somewhat misinterpreted.


First, let us start with the term "_gurmukh_".

"_Gur_" refers to "guru".  "_Mukh_" refers to will.

Whilst many have regarded the "_gur_" of "_gurmukh_" to be a reference to the discrete Guru (i.e. the ten human Gurus and the eleventh perpetual Guru, the Granth Sahib), my personal interpretations of the wirtings of _gurbani_ have lead me to believe that the "_gur_" of "_gurmukh_" is, in fact, a reference to _satgur_ (True Guru) or _waheguru_.

Therefore, to live under "_gurmukh_" means *to overcome the ego of believing that you have any real control over your life and to submit to the will of the Universe*.

This doesn't necessarily mean that one should become _amridhari_ (although if someone feels that this is their personal destiny, then they should not feel opposed to embracing it, since all our choices are the will of the Universe or _waheguru_), but simply that we should be aware that we are all a small part of a vast Cosmic Will that is and always will be out of our understanding and ultimate control.  As such, we should go about our life duties (_kirt_) and raise our families (_gristi jivan_), but we should not repent over whatever choices _waheguru_ has made for us, since everything is His anyway.

Therefore, this means that a "_manmukh_" is simply one who refuses to accept his subordinacy to the Universe, and believes that they are in ultimate control.  They are, of course, free to believe this.  But one should not carry such ego if they are not prepared to face the burden of defeat.  _Gurbani_ warns that those who choose to endure this burden will feel pain when fate appears on their doorstep and they are unable to accept it.

That is my view.


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## Arvind (Sep 25, 2006)

Dear max314,

It is a great pleasure to read your posts. Thanks for your presence here on SPN.

Regards, Arvind.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Sep 26, 2006)

Gurfateh



kds1980 said:


> <<manmukh is one who follows own mind or ego.In us as whole world belong to God so Mind is not ours so Mind is of God and God only uses that.>>
> 
> but if someone don't beleive in god but living an honest and truthful life
> the is he also a manmukh?after all we coudn't convince everyone about god.



Well we have belivers with Duja Bhav ie thinking many things other then God.

Then we have Sakat,who is meant by one considering onself as capable to do any thing.Weather with or without Faith in God.

Sakat is derived from Shakti or power.Term Sakata in hindi means capable due to self power.

If God wants all can get salvation and after manifestation is back to Akal,all will be salvaged.

Yet if someone belvies that he is doing all,then state of Jivat Mukt is not there perhaps.


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## max314 (Sep 26, 2006)

Arvind said:


> Dear max314,
> 
> It is a great pleasure to read your posts. Thanks for your presence here on SPN.
> 
> Regards, Arvind.




An honour, dear friend.


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## rajsikh (Sep 27, 2006)

it not only sikhism but every religion hate people who use his/her mind
just for some knowledge and entertainment please watch this old classic,if u can
name is
INHERIT THE WIND
*link to commercial download site removed*spnadmin


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## adeep646 (Aug 9, 2007)

Gurmukh is one that has killed his Mann. he has no ego and they have united with Waheguru. by doing simran one kills their Mann. this is the most highly regarded deed "Karam" by the Guru's " Prabh ka Simran Sab te Ucha." without dying you cannot find God "Bin MAnn Muye Kase Har PAi " ;if the Mann does not die how can you find God. 

Also "Prab Ji Base Sadd Ki Rasna" that Waheguru himself comes and uses this body  and speaks through a Gurmukh

EVERYONE else is a Manmukh. a manmukh will be punished and taken by the Jamm. a manmukh is doomed to be reincarnated over and over again. 
personally my whole "gurmukh family" are really manmukhs. by Taking Amrit you are not a Gurmukh.
A manmukh performs deeds and actions by taking a Vichar "thought" or getting one. so if i want to go to the park today it is because i received a tought from the 5 thieves or Kal  or my own Mann or other. if i do go to the park it is because Waheguru Willed it, but i did not get a direct hukam from Akal Purkh to go there. instead i recieved a Vichar  and acted upon it. 

i have found the path and wish to share the knowledge of the Akath Katha found at "Simran.info" this website has detailed explaination of the Guru's teaching is video format. check it out. if you have trouble understanding something you can email me.


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## Astroboy (Aug 10, 2007)

I don't know if these people are gurmukh or manmukh but they are definitely not sikhs. LOL
YouTube - Re: another crazy Sunni


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## TGill (Aug 30, 2007)

My Veiws---

No one is hated by Guruji, whether he is Manmukh or Gurmukh.. Guruji can only love ... period..Guruji loves a manmukh as much as a Gurmukh...

Only a Gurmukh retains that love and feels the bliss, whereas a manmukh knows nothing of that bliss (cos he is too much involved in his own ego) and hence have to feel the pain created by his own deeds...

Manmukh and mind has no relation, mind is given by god to be used, and hence should be used to the utmost potential, but at the same time we should have the power to cut it off and when it wanders like a stupid and that can be done only by Guru's own grace...


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## adeep646 (Aug 30, 2007)

everybody is Waheguru's creation. The Guru is our guide. 
think of manmukh and gurmukh according to the Gurbani. like i mentioned before. 

another example is if you are a parent you may know. 
there is a child who leaves home and never writes nor sends money when requested but shows great respect and hangs the pictures on the wall and does patth to them

then there is a child who the parents like best because he listens to their instructions and request. 
the parents will say they love both children but we know the hidden answer.


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## TGill (Sep 4, 2007)

Dear Adeep ji,

The story you told about the parents and children does not hold true for the Guru. Guru is omnipotent, omnipresent and is doing everything ( these parents are not) . Then how can Guru have lesser love for someone and more for other when he is the one at the first place, who created someone to love him more than the other..

Ek noor te sab jag upjeya kon bhale ko mande ... Guru sahib himself said that 

but also himself said that manmukh lives in hell and that is *not* cos Guru does not love him, that is cos he doesn't love Guru...

So sikhism is not against people who use their mind... It just says that unless to throw away the falsities of this mind you will remain in hell...


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## Lionchild (Sep 17, 2007)

This concept is found in most of the other major religions, all of which refer to being free willed and rebelious, or submiting yourself to god. Though, free will and use and mind are a "grey" area, considering, we use our mind everday to influence what the rest of the day is like Hint: the law of attraction.

Anyways, very good explanation, look forward to more posts like this.

Btw, i'm still alive :roll:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 28, 2011)

The word Manmukh should not be considered as Bad word.
As a matter of fact the whole humanity of the world has been  classified in two categories .One as Gurmukh and other as Manmukh.
In Gurbaani Gurmukh and Manmukh both have been well defined.
Gurbaani Quotes as 

 Manmukh.........Se Manmukh Jo SABADu Na Pachanayee
                          GuR Ke Bhae Kee Saar Na  Jaanahee
                          Bhae Binu Kiu Nirbhau Sachu Paayiae Jamu Kaadi Lahegaa Saahaa He
                           pp1054

           Therefore Gurmukh are those well familiar with SABADu.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jun 28, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> i am debating on the other side with some people
> they says that in sikhi why bad words are written for people which uses their own mind (manmukhs.)everybody cannot follow gurmat then why guru ji wrote bad words for them?



Having spent most of my life in a dionysian pursuit, whilst at the same time trying to do good deeds, this question has vexed me for years. I joined this forum as an atheist, and soon after ended up back as a sikh again. 

 I abandoned the pursuit of pleasures for the simple reason that the more pleasures you chase, the more empty and worthless you feel, until, you get to the point where you cannot even look in the mirror anymore, the pleasure chasing takes over your life, you cease to measure it in any other value other than how much pleasure you have had or are having. 

At the end of the day, the fun and enjoyment you get out of being a manmukh, a slave to pleasure, gets less with each day, until you end up on your knees begging for peace and contentment and you realise the value of all the simple things in life, and you ask, you shout, why didnt anyone warn me of this. But they don't warn you, they expect you to follow blindly a variety of traditions and rituals that actually have nothing to do with sikhi, 


What the SGGS is saying is that to have a normal life, you can be a manmukh and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But, to have a super life, to know oneself, to know everything you want to know, to be in bliss, to be so high on life, it is like you are levitating, you need to be a gurmukh, the choice is ours, the difference is, we are aware of the choice, some are not..


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 28, 2011)

Prakash Singh ji, thank you. That whole page # 1054 is awesome!

I am a Manmukh in certain moments and Gurmukh in others. Have to keep working to remain a Gurmukh.


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## kds1980 (Jun 28, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Having spent most of my life in a dionysian pursuit, whilst at the same time trying to do good deeds, this question has vexed me for years. I joined this forum as an atheist, and soon after ended up back as a sikh again.
> 
> I abandoned the pursuit of pleasures for the simple reason that the more pleasures you chase, the more empty and worthless you feel, until, you get to the point where you cannot even look in the mirror anymore, the pleasure chasing takes over your life, you cease to measure it in any other value other than how much pleasure you have had or are having.
> 
> ...



I asked this question 5 years back not now

At that time SPN was different,

KDS was different 

The participants were different

I don't need any answer now


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## findingmyway (Jun 28, 2011)

This whole thread makes me very uncomfortable. How does gurmukh or manmukh relate to whether you use your mind? Are people saying that the mind should not be used to be a gurmukh (blind faith) or are people saying that not using the mind to follow and focus on the gurbani makes one a manmukh? I am confused!

Gurbani encourages the use of bibek buddhi-our intellect and discerning to understand the message of gurbani so not using the mind is not an option!


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 28, 2011)

Findingmyway ji, there is something there when the mind steps to the side. It has nothing to do with blind faith, faith or doubt.

Mind maybe seen as ego-immersed. That's its nature, it is restless because it compulsively analyzes, compulsively judges, compulsively forms concepts about everything. All this judging, analyzing, concept-making and the root of it all, thinking, takes place in the realm of duality. The love for duality is God's Hukam.
It is God-immersed when it is resting because it stops doing those things compulsively. There it sees that its attachment to it, is God's hukam. It then starts seeing God's hukam. Those who immerse themselves in the Hukam then maybe called Gurmukh.

Those who continue with their obsessions and compulsions, maybe called Manmukh. Manmukhs if they start to see their obsessions and compulsions, as just obsessions and compulsions can become Gurmukhs but they are unaware of them. They live as if they are those obsessions and compulsions. They think they are something in the realm of duality. I am a good person. I do good deeds. I am very spiritual. I am someone who does simran everyday. I keep a nitnem. I don't drink. I don't smoke. How dare someone call me foolish? I am very intelligent. I am a Sikh. I have ancestors who were great kings and fearless warriors. I own a house and a car. I have X amount of friends.

Manmukhs live in such thoughts. These thoughts are their reality.

I am standing on a railway platform. The train of thought goes through the station. The other side of the train, the beautiful green grass, the splendour of clouds, suspended particles in mid air, the sweet voice of the wind, the rows of sturdy houses, brilliant bright streetsigns, is unknown to me. Only the train is visible. I am lost in the train. It keeps going. It's so long. This my life... this train. I do not pay attention to the gaps between the cars of the train. If I did I would see the reality. For me the train is the reality on the other side of the train. I have places to go, people to meet. I have no time to see the clouds. Screw the clouds. I have no time for actual meditation, I repeat God's name while focusing on the train. I don't know the sound of my own voice. It cannot be heard from all the noise that the train makes. It could cry for help even then I wouldn't know it.

Was reading this shabad today. Don't know if it's related.
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੩  ਘਰੁ  ੧  ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ घरु १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3 gẖar 1.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl, First House:
ਜਿਸ  ਹੀ  ਕੀ  ਸਿਰਕਾਰ  ਹੈ  ਤਿਸ  ਹੀ  ਕਾ  ਸਭੁ  ਕੋਇ  ॥
जिस ही की सिरकार है तिस ही का सभु कोइ ॥
Jis hī kī sirkār hai ṯis hī kā sabẖ ko▫e.
Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਕਾਰ  ਕਮਾਵਣੀ  ਸਚੁ  ਘਟਿ  ਪਰਗਟੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
गुरमुखि कार कमावणी सचु घटि परगटु होइ ॥
Gurmukẖ kār kamāvṇī sacẖ gẖat pargat ho▫e.
The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.
ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਜਿਸ  ਕੈ  ਸਚੁ  ਵਸੈ  ਸਚੇ  ਸਚੀ  ਸੋਇ  ॥
अंतरि जिस कै सचु वसै सचे सची सोइ ॥
Anṯar jis kai sacẖ vasai sacẖe sacẖī so▫e.
True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.
ਸਚਿ  ਮਿਲੇ  ਸੇ  ਨ  ਵਿਛੁੜਹਿ  ਤਿਨ  ਨਿਜ  ਘਰਿ  ਵਾਸਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੧॥
सचि मिले से न विछुड़हि तिन निज घरि वासा होइ ॥१॥
Sacẖ mile se na vicẖẖuṛėh ṯin nij gẖar vāsā ho▫e. ||1||
Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ  ਰਾਮ  ਮੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਇ  ॥
मेरे राम मै हरि बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Mere rām mai har bin avar na ko▫e.
O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.
ਸਤਗੁਰੁ  ਸਚੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਨਿਰਮਲਾ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਮਿਲਾਵਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
सतगुरु सचु प्रभु निरमला सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur sacẖ parabẖ nirmalā sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||
ਸਬਦਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਸੋ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਰਹੈ  ਜਿਸ  ਨਉ  ਆਪੇ  ਲਏ  ਮਿਲਾਇ  ॥
सबदि मिलै सो मिलि रहै जिस नउ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milai so mil rahai jis na▫o āpe la▫e milā▫e.
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.
ਦੂਜੈ  ਭਾਇ  ਕੋ  ਨਾ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਆਵੈ  ਜਾਇ  ॥
दूजै भाइ को ना मिलै फिरि फिरि आवै जाइ ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ko nā milai fir fir āvai jā▫e.
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.
ਸਭ  ਮਹਿ  ਇਕੁ  ਵਰਤਦਾ  ਏਕੋ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਸਮਾਇ  ॥
सभ महि इकु वरतदा एको रहिआ समाइ ॥
Sabẖ mėh ik varaṯḏā eko rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.
ਜਿਸ  ਨਉ  ਆਪਿ  ਦਇਆਲੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਸੋ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਨਾਮਿ  ਸਮਾਇ  ॥੨॥
जिस नउ आपि दइआलु होइ सो गुरमुखि नामि समाइ ॥२॥
Jis na▫o āp ḏa▫i▫āl ho▫e so gurmukẖ nām samā▫e. ||2||
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||
ਪੜਿ  ਪੜਿ  ਪੰਡਿਤ  ਜੋਤਕੀ  ਵਾਦ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਬੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥
पड़ि पड़ि पंडित जोतकी वाद करहि बीचारु ॥
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ joṯkī vāḏ karahi bīcẖār.
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.
ਮਤਿ  ਬੁਧਿ  ਭਵੀ  ਨ  ਬੁਝਈ  ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਲੋਭ  ਵਿਕਾਰੁ  ॥
मति बुधि भवी न बुझई अंतरि लोभ विकारु ॥
Maṯ buḏẖ bẖavī na bujẖ▫ī anṯar lobẖ vikār.
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.
ਲਖ  ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ  ਭਰਮਦੇ  ਭ੍ਰਮਿ  ਭ੍ਰਮਿ  ਹੋਇ  ਖੁਆਰੁ  ॥
लख चउरासीह भरमदे भ्रमि भ्रमि होइ खुआरु ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh bẖaramḏe bẖaram bẖaram ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.
ਪੂਰਬਿ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਕਮਾਵਣਾ  ਕੋਇ  ਨ  ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥੩॥
पूरबि लिखिआ कमावणा कोइ न मेटणहारु ॥३॥
Pūrab likẖi▫ā kamāvaṇā ko▫e na metaṇhār. ||3||
They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||
ਸਤਗੁਰ  ਕੀ  ਸੇਵਾ  ਗਾਖੜੀ  ਸਿਰੁ  ਦੀਜੈ  ਆਪੁ  ਗਵਾਇ  ॥
सतगुर की सेवा गाखड़ी सिरु दीजै आपु गवाइ ॥
Saṯgur kī sevā gākẖ▫ṛī sir ḏījai āp gavā▫e.
It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.
ਸਬਦਿ  ਮਿਲਹਿ  ਤਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਸੇਵਾ  ਪਵੈ  ਸਭ  ਥਾਇ  ॥
सबदि मिलहि ता हरि मिलै सेवा पवै सभ थाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milėh ṯā har milai sevā pavai sabẖ thā▫e.
Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.
ਪਾਰਸਿ  ਪਰਸਿਐ  ਪਾਰਸੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਜੋਤੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਸਮਾਇ  ॥
पारसि परसिऐ पारसु होइ जोती जोति समाइ ॥
Pāras parsi▫ai pāras ho▫e joṯī joṯ samā▫e.
By  personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own  personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.
ਜਿਨ  ਕਉ  ਪੂਰਬਿ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਤਿਨ  ਸਤਗੁਰੁ  ਮਿਲਿਆ  ਆਇ  ॥੪॥
जिन कउ पूरबि लिखिआ तिन सतगुरु मिलिआ आइ ॥४॥
Jin ka▫o pūrab likẖi▫ā ṯin saṯgur mili▫ā ā▫e. ||4||
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||
ਮਨ  ਭੁਖਾ  ਭੁਖਾ  ਮਤ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਮਤ  ਤੂ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਪੂਕਾਰ  ॥
मन भुखा भुखा मत करहि मत तू करहि पूकार ॥
Man bẖukẖā bẖukẖā maṯ karahi maṯ ṯū karahi pūkār.
O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.
ਲਖ  ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਸਿਰੀ  ਸਭਸੈ  ਦੇਇ  ਅਧਾਰੁ  ॥
लख चउरासीह जिनि सिरी सभसै देइ अधारु ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jin sirī sabẖsai ḏe▫e aḏẖār.
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
ਨਿਰਭਉ  ਸਦਾ  ਦਇਆਲੁ  ਹੈ  ਸਭਨਾ  ਕਰਦਾ  ਸਾਰ  ॥
निरभउ सदा दइआलु है सभना करदा सार ॥
Nirbẖa▫o saḏā ḏa▫i▫āl hai sabẖnā karḏā sār.
The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.
ਨਾਨਕ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਬੁਝੀਐ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਮੋਖ  ਦੁਆਰੁ  ॥੫॥੩॥੩੬॥
नानक गुरमुखि बुझीऐ पाईऐ मोख दुआरु ॥५॥३॥३६॥
Nānak gurmukẖ bujẖī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār. ||5||3||36||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||


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## spnadmin (Jun 28, 2011)

findingmyway ji

When I first joined SPN I had the same frustration. Perseverance reading and study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes this clear: 



> Gurbani encourages the use of bibek buddhi-our intellect and discerning to understand the message of gurbani so not using the mind is not an option!



"Manmukh" also does not necessarily lead to a life of obsessive lust, greed, pride, anger, and attachment. 

Nor does the tuk, mean we should give up our studies and discussions. 



> ਪੰਡਿਤ ਵਾਚਹਿ ਪੋਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
> Pandiṯ vācẖėh pothī▫ā nā būjẖėh vīcẖār.
> The Pandits, the religious scholars, read their books, but they do not understand the real meaning.
> mean that scholarship, discussion and debate should be abandoned. But this and other tuks are continually taken from context and tossed about as evidence we should abandon them


.


It is the mind that seeks




> ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਿਧਾਤੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੂਰੇ ॥
> Anṯarjāmī purakẖ biḏẖāṯe sarḏẖā man kī pūre.
> O Inner-knower, Searcher of Hearts, O Primal Being, Architect of Destiny: please fulfill this yearning of my mind.
> and the mind that is satisfied



and the mind that finds satisfaction.



> ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥
> Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o.
> Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.


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## P0TTER (Jun 28, 2011)

rajsikh said:


> it not only sikhism but every religion hate people who use his/her mind
> just for some knowledge and entertainment please watch this old classic,if u can
> name is
> INHERIT THE WIND
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> This whole thread makes me very uncomfortable. How does gurmukh or manmukh relate to whether you use your mind? Are people saying that the mind should not be used to be a gurmukh (blind faith) or are people saying that not using the mind to follow and focus on the gurbani makes one a manmukh? I am confused!
> 
> Gurbani encourages the use of bibek buddhi-our intellect and discerning to understand the message of gurbani so not using the mind is not an option!



This is an interesting point, watching the religious tv channels again the other day, I watched a preacher talking to a large number of people about his definition of gods will. The religion concerned is not important, but it was not a sikh channel. He stated that if everyone followed the rules as set out in their holy book, then they would all go to heaven, where everything was wonderful, and if they did not, they would go to hell, and there was much mention of fire, implements of torture etc. At no point was the subject of 'understanding' mentioned. The message was clear, do these things, go to heaven, do these other things go to hell. The preacher talked about how hard it was to resist doing bad things, but we all had to attempt to shut off that bad voice and listen to the good voice. 

Findingmywayji, this is the type of religion that , in my view, does encourage you not to use your own mind. I could have stopped living as a fool years ago, but in my view, that would have been blind faith, what I personally needed was intelligent and reasoned arguments why I would not want to live like that anymore, and that I found here on this forum.  

That has been my search, not for some authority to tell me whats wrong and right, but for my mind to develop to a point where things that I could do without even thinking before, now, I have no desire or need to do them anymore. I hope to die in peace doing what I do, not out of fear of hell, or desire of heaven, but because in my heart, I have no attraction for them. 

I still drink sometimes, I know that each drink I have takes me further away from the truth, and each absent day helps me get closer, at some point, I will have to make a decision, which is more attractive to me?, I will have to ponder the effects of even the odd drink with my beliefs and attempt to reconcile that as to what I actually am. In time, I will not even have my weekly odd lager, as the benefits will outweigh the drawbacks, this takes understanding faith and a working brain. I personally would rather throw myself off a cliff than adhere to a religion that deep down, was a fight and struggle all the way to the end, blind faith..


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## P0TTER (Jun 29, 2011)

I can't help, but reply as a Christian, because that is what I am.
If we look in the New Testament, the thing that Jesus said most of all was "Fear not."
God is Love and Love casts out fear, so as we walk with God we can find strength and hope to do the right thing.
Following rules & regulations is not much fun is it? 
Much better to live with the Spirit of God, rather than with the Letter of the Law.
The Bible says, 'The Law kills, but the Spirit brings Life'
Furthermore, as you say... it is not a matter of a 'blind faith' 
Faith needs to have substance and according to the Bible, 'Faith is the presence of things hoped for, of things believed in.'
So our walk is with God and we go forward in faith... 
We are inspired by God who is perfect; and our walk of faith is accompanied by prayer to Him, to abide with us and help us walk in a way that is pleasing in His sight and pleasing to others.
We live in a world that is constantly changing and we also are constantly changing, but we hope to walk in righteousness and truth, in Peace and Love.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 29, 2011)

POTTER Ji ,
I agree to your views as revealed in the new testament .In India I have lestened to the discourses  of Chritianity and many times I get the feelings of the effects of messages as similar to what we get from our SGGS.
We should bear in mind that tha Basic Principles are everywhere almost same just as Basic laws of science are same all over the world.
We should have first strong understanding of Very fundmental and Basic laws before we make elaborative explanations.But generally we ignore the fundamental and Basic conepts of the philosophy and directly enter into  lenghty dialogues leading to nowhere and we all stand again where we start.
I personally listen to the discourses of different religious philosophies and I find that there are persons talking about the fundamentals and Basics only .I find not much difference there.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 29, 2011)

The very Basic and Fundamental nature of the CREATOR is dual . So we can find duality in every creation.
This is very important consideration .
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2011)

Potterji, 

many thanks for your kind words, If I were a christian, I would have been a Gnostic


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 29, 2011)

From Gurbaani we can know that to become Munmukh or to become Gurmukh is not our choice.One becomes aware of this by the grace of GuRU only then transformation from Munukh to Gurmukh takes place.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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