# Who Is The Present Guru Of The Sikhs?



## Admin (Nov 29, 2008)

This question was raised by SPN members while taking Quizzes on Sikhism about: who is the present Guru of Sikhs? Are Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panth Khalsa collective Guru of Sikhs? Intellectuals may put light on the issue in full length.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
what i think is that Shri Guru Granth Sahib and Panth Khalsa is collectively the present sikh Guru :yes:. After the line of corporeal gurus was brought to an end by Guru Gobind Singh, the Khalsa Panth was installed its own leader under the abiding guidance of Guru Granth Sahib and guru ji himself was a member of khalsa panth.:yes: This may be cleared by the following lines by Guru gobind singh ji :yes: --
The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

I think Sri Guru Granth SAhib is the present guru of the Sikhs because it was given Guru gaddi by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Now about Khalsa, by Guru SGGS does not say anything, therefore, to me Khalsa is just Khalsa, nothing I need to bother with now. Of course, I am talking about the discipline started by Guru Gobind SIngh ji.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal, 
bhagat singh ji,
why dont u just read the lines above in my post :inca:


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> bhagat singh ji,
> why dont u just read the lines above in my post :inca:


I read your whole post. Do you want me to take a look at something specific?


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal, 
yes bhagat ji:inca:
This may be cleared by the following lines by Guru gobind singh ji :yes: --
The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> yes bhagat ji:inca:
> This may be cleared by the following lines by Guru gobind singh ji :yes: --
> The Khalsa is my own special form
> ...


That made nothing clear, please explain. OH and BTW none of that is in SGGS, the present Guru of the SIkhs.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> That made nothing clear, please explain. OH and BTW none of that is in SGGS, the present Guru of the SIkhs.


 
Bhagat Singh ji please tell us where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the present Guru of the Sikhs? And this question is to anyone that says the Panj Pyare or Guru Khalsa Panth can never be Guru.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji please tell us where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the present Guru of the Sikhs? And this question is to anyone that says the Panj Pyare or Guru Khalsa Panth can never be Guru.


Well, if by SGGS not saying that it is Guru means that it is not Guru, then Sikhs have never had a Guru. None of the Gurus said they were Guru BUT when they passed on the Guruship, we always turned towards the new one. SGGS should be no exception.

SGGS does not mention Khalsa therefore, it is not important.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
thank you singh ji for ur  back up . atleast someone has a similar thought 
Bhagat ji, can u tell me the reason  why the presence of both SGGS and panj pyare is required for any ceremony why cant it be done only by having SGGS and not panj pyare .:down:


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> thank you singh ji for ur  back up . atleast someone has a similar thought
> Bhagat ji, can u tell me the reason  why the presence of both SGGS and panj pyare is required for any ceremony why cant it be done only by having SGGS and not panj pyare .:down:


I didn't know panja pyare were required for any ceremony. If I could change that I would. 
But I guess panj pyare are important part of out history so maybe that's why. So I wouldn't in the end.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
Guru ji once said that anyone who is standing infront of   a true khalsa with 5 ks is standing infront of me.dont ask if it is in the granth


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> Guru ji once said that anyone who is standing infront of   a true khalsa with 5 ks is standing infront of me.dont ask if it is in the granth


Well, first of all he considered true people even muslims to be Khalsa. 
Secondly,  it doesn't say in SGGS therefore it is not important unless you want to study it, etc.

So SGGS is our present guru. Its the one we have to follow now. :yes:


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Well, if by SGGS not saying that it is Guru means that it is not Guru, then Sikhs have never had a Guru. None of the Gurus said they were Guru BUT when they passed on the Guruship, we always turned towards the new one. SGGS should be no exception.
> 
> SGGS does not mention Khalsa therefore, it is not important.


 
So how did we find out that after Guru Nanak Dev ji who was the next Guru?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> So how did we find out that after Guru Nanak Dev ji who was the next Guru?


Guru Nanak passed on the guruship to Bhai Lehna.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Guru Nanak passed on the guruship to Bhai Lehna.


 
And how did he do this?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> And how did he do this?


I don't know you're going to have to ask someone else.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> I don't know you're going to have to ask someone else.


 
Alright another question, how did Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji pass on the Guruship to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> Alright another question, how did Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji pass on the Guruship to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?


Same way as any other guru.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Same way as any other guru.


 
so in other words you don't know?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> so in other words you don't know?


No in other words, same as the other Gurus.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> No in other words, same as the other Gurus.


 
Please tell me, what you mean by this.  I am not as smart to figure it out myself, so please tell me.


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## satwant (Nov 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji please tell us where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the present Guru of the Sikhs? And this question is to anyone that says the Panj Pyare or Guru Khalsa Panth can never be Guru.


Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai guru maniyo granth. 

the above is elf explanatory. does it clarify your doubts about who is the guru?

Satwant


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## satwant (Nov 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji please tell us where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the present Guru of the Sikhs? And this question is to anyone that says the Panj Pyare or Guru Khalsa Panth can never be Guru.


Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai guru maniyo granth. 

the above is self explanatory. does it clarify your doubts about who is the guru?

Satwant


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

The Guru Granth sahib bases its stipulations and teaching on each man conquering his own mind and becoming his own Lord, Master and God.  Of his home, hearth and brethren and community.  Mans ability to be guide his own brethren by the laws and tenets of the sacred Adi Granth is his life’s vocation. Bindranwale was a precious hero alas destroyed, partly by fellow enviers disallowing any any siuch rising of a living Guru in our midst, and mostly by the external enemy equally jealous of such greatness born in any other culture or creed than its own. It is the sin nature inherent in politics that would not allow the presence of such a Guru.  The Babaji of the Rhadoswami faith is highly respected across the world, a veritable Pope and light of inspiration for many. Alas this cult has divided Sikhism and holds 70% of the Sikh population in its fellowship, based solely on the love for its Godhead and Guru. Unfortunately to the decline of traditions Sikhism.  Religions blessed with Godheads, Spiritual Leaders and upholders of their faith tend to flourish depending and being reliant upon the Mastery and Lordship of such an arisen soul. The book, a strong social, community and family ethos will contribute to the economic, spiritual and moral strength of the Sikh community. If such a noble Lord of Wisdom arises we gladly kneel, in the absence of such a one, we look to our Fathers, Brothers and Sons for guidance and protection whilst serving their interest with honour and happy hearts. 

Any religion is as efficient as its adherents and Gianni. I have a deep respect and understanding for all faiths, and a reverential Love and regard for the faith of the Fathers. It is this devotional and inspired Love prospering man, family, society, faith, religion and nation. Administered by the hand of wisdom and peace, Love suffices ...

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh ...


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 30, 2008)

Sat shri akal,


jeetijohal said:


> The Guru Granth sahib bases its stipulations and teaching on each man conquering his own mind and becoming his own Lord, Master and God. Of his home, hearth and brethren and community. Mans ability to be guide his own brethren by the laws and tenets of the sacred Adi Granth is his life’s vocation. Bindranwale was a precious hero alas destroyed, partly by fellow enviers disallowing any any siuch rising of a living Guru in our midst, and mostly by the external enemy equally jealous of such greatness born in any other culture or creed than its own. It is the sin nature inherent in politics that would not allow the presence of such a Guru. The Babaji of the Rhadoswami faith is highly respected across the world, a veritable Pope and light of inspiration for many. Alas this cult has divided Sikhism and holds 70% of the Sikh population in its fellowship, based solely on the love for its Godhead and Guru. Unfortunately to the decline of traditions Sikhism. Religions blessed with Godheads, Spiritual Leaders and upholders of their faith tend to flourish depending and being reliant upon the Mastery and Lordship of such an arisen soul. The book, a strong social, community and family ethos will contribute to the economic, spiritual and moral strength of the Sikh community. If such a noble Lord of Wisdom arises we gladly kneel, in the absence of such a one, we look to our Fathers, Brothers and Sons for guidance and protection whilst serving their interest with honour and happy hearts.
> 
> Any religion is as efficient as its adherents and Gianni. I have a deep respect and understanding for all faiths, and a reverential Love and regard for the faith of the Fathers. It is this devotional and inspired Love prospering man, family, society, faith, religion and nation. Administered by the hand of wisdom and peace, Love suffices ...
> 
> Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh ...


 
sorry but ur post has nothing to do with the question being raised.
the question is who is the present sikh Guru .
some of us think that Guru granth sahib and panth khalsa collectively is the sikh Guru on the other hand some hold Shri Guru granth sahib to be our only and exclusive Guru. ur requested to share ur views.
anyways



> The Babaji of the Rhadoswami faith is highly respected across the world, a veritable Pope and light of inspiration for many. Alas this cult has divided Sikhism and holds 70% of the Sikh population in its fellowship, based solely on the love for its Godhead and Guru. Unfortunately to the decline of traditions Sikhism.


sounds funny:}{}{}:




> Any religion is as efficient as its adherents and Gianni.


religions r efficient because of their philosophy and the way they deal with earthly problems,clear the doubts of ones mind .:advocate:


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

religions r efficient because of their philosophy and the way they deal with earthly problems,clear the doubts of ones mind .:advocate: 

I disagree. Philosophies are all particles of an absolute truth and only as workable as the adherent and administrators of its agenda and ideal. The question was fully answered The Guru Granth Sahib is the living word of Waheguru Ji. Should such a noble Lord arise who is able to define concisely and communicate effectively its sound tenets then we shall all adore him as a Guru. All philosophies and religions are fundamentally sound. It is rather false and selfish interpretation that misleads and defames by the deceiving ...


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## Admin (Nov 30, 2008)

*Added a poll to make the outcome this debate more clear to readers.
*


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

Furthermore until you, sir, are able to coordinate unity and a collective panth, it remains abysmally divided and factioned. In matters of cast, faith and belief, your premise and point is flawed.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 30, 2008)

Sat shri akal,


> im sorry my post is out of topic(present sikh Guru):yes:





> Philosophies are all particles of an absolute truth and only as workable as the adherent and administrators of its agenda and ideal.


Philosophy when brought to practical use is called religion but it may not always be that philosophy turns 100% to religion some errors come from outside us  and some from inside us others when religions become traditions.




> The question was fully answered The Guru Granth Sahib is the living word of Waheguru Ji


and i thought it had mortal authors



> Furthermore until you, sir, are able to coordinate unity and a collective panth, it remains abysmally divided and factioned. In matters of cast, faith and belief, your premise and point is flawed.


At the end it is not we who do such things but it comes as a reaction to the thoughts of society and traditions .


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

If there were a free living Guru the media against all such portal and vestibules of power having co requirement of their marketing services or generating any profit production for the media, would invariably destroy such a supreme being. That is the sad truth.

Remedy, we must unite as a faith, then as countrymen and then as citizens of the worlds. At a time most struggle to remain on good terms with family, suffer to provide in an alien societal culture and peoples, an enemy within and without harbouring hopes of a collective unit seem at times, hopeless. It requires one such luminary of unilateral sense and wisdom to bring all nations together as one, without necessitating the relinquishing of personal and cultural identity. It is perfectly possible and feasible one barriers and obstacle are acknowledged and removed. 

Bindranwalle was murdered in the Punjab, David Kosher in Waco, America giving rise to the ruthless desire of all present powers to destroy Messiah's and their cult following at point of onset. It is tragic, to be a spiritual leader without teaching the overcoming of tyrannical and evil regimes is to be naive and blinkered. Love is the solution, born of understanding and kinship, pride in ones culture and an understanding of all others and their right to be as proud. 

Sikhi is as powerful within Punjab and the word and actions of its proponents as each individual. We all strive to maintain this proud tradition in a modern environment seeking to destroy all religions and bind mankind to the wickedness of media hedonism and debauchery. Remaining integrated whilst being single mindedly of one determination and code of moral honour is mans task and role in life before we can expect the rise of any such a Supreme Lord and Lambhardar. Peace to you ....


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Well, if by SGGS not saying that it is Guru means that it is not Guru, then Sikhs have never had a Guru. None of the Gurus said they were Guru BUT when they passed on the Guruship, we always turned towards the new one. SGGS should be no exception.
> 
> SGGS does not mention Khalsa therefore, it is not important.


 


It requires greatness to create greatness, and greatness to let greatness be. 

This means the great thinkers, philosophers and saints were adored and worshipped by the great minds of the time but ignored or derided by lesser intermediary folks, having neither the courage to be humbly supplicated, or the moral authority and supreme consciousness to openly adore and pledge allegiance. 

We witness time and again this instance occasioning in all faiths and cultures across the board, sad to find it so prevalent in our own. True Sikhs accord all respect as it is so inspired and accorded duly. We are all too mindful of the age of Kalyug and spiritual ignorance where the bleeding souls are silent, and paap finds voice within the hearts of angered or hatreful ....


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

To those who believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj and the khalsa are equal as Guru. To those who believe that Sri Gobind Singh Patasha intended that his khalsa be seen as equal to the Granth Sahib, I say this:

Do you then behold your guru? Is it a reflection of yourself? Who of them is guru? Who of them is khalsa? 

*Mangling the  religion*
*
*​ *Sach Kanwal Singh  -  World Sikh  News*​ _*How        The Mini Parliament Of The Sikhs Has Been  Hijacked By Vested        Interests. This Special Report takes a macro look at the entire gamut of        functioning of the SGPC and brings out what is wrong. It argues for a        thorough engagement at all levels to save the institution from those        manning it*_

You want to recall the glorious period of  contemporary Sikh history, try the origins of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak  Committee (SGPC). A child of the Gurdwara Reform Movement and an example of what  positive resistance and a return to the roots struggle can achieve, the setting  up of the SGPC is a lesson on how a minority can save its identity, freedom and  institutions with a simple tactic: just plain honest sense of purpose and  leadership.

You want to  study how not to run an institution, how institutionalizing administration of  the affairs of a minority can lead to worse ways of control and muzzling of  ideas, and how institutions that go haywire can wreck even the most glorious of  legacies, study the way the SGPC is being run for the last few years. Pay  particular attention to who gets to call the shots and why, and how the men and  women tasked with managing its affairs are selected/elected, and you would have  a study in contrast.

One of the most  respected and widely accepted body of the Sikhs, basically a premier Sikh  gurdwara management panel but whose role over the years has far outgrown its  stated objectives, represents today a pathetic picture of what a good  institution could have been.

To just start  pointing out the aberrations, so far even the name Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak  Committee needs to be clarified. Legal records of the SGPC itself are run in the  name of a central board.

Elections to the  SGPC General House, comprising some 185 members, are conducted with the help of  a government panel called Gurdara Election Commission, and so far only the Akali  Dal has fought these elections on its party symbol. For many years now, the  party led by Parkash Singh Badal and now his son Sukhbir Singh Badal, thanks to  the clout it enjoys in terms of political reach, money, muscle power and the  killer instinct, has been winning most seats.

Such is the cult  of personality in the Akali Dal, and the same has permeated to such an extent  into the SGPC culture, that all major decisions are almost a family matter for  the Badals.

Elections to the  top office posts of the SGPC are organized every year, and members of the  general house elect the SGPC president and other office bearers. By now, the  Sikhs know well that basically the Badals select a man, send a slip of paper in  an envelope that is opened right on the spot and a usual cry of Bole So Nihal  follows. This becomes the choice of the Panth.

It is  immediately followed by the chosen one thanking the Badal family members, the  SGPC members, the sangat and the Akal Purakh, very often in that  order.
It was no  different this time. It wasn't expected to be.

But the fact  that a Sikh organization in times of crisis for the community, and with a budget  of Rs 400 crores and hundreds of gurdwaras, educational institutions, social  forums, hospitals and inestimable real estate resources, men and money power,  simply sits on it all and exploits the resources for the benefit of the Akali  Dal and its top brass, has been perturbing the Sikhs for a long time  now.

With Rs 400 crore budget, and wide cceptability as a         representative organisation of the Sikh community, the Shiromani Gurdwara        rabandhak Committee was custom-made to not just represent but advance the        religion, and take it through the labyrinths of a discourse with        modernity. Instead, the SGPC today is a handmaiden of just one family, a        bunch of power-hungry people and is manned either by the irreligious or        the unscruplous. Complete lack of democracy and good governance practices        have now reduced it to real madhouse. No wonder, those who man it take        pride in calling it a Mini Parliament. In reality, it is as badly run as        the Indian Parliament.

The challenges  facing the community are many, and tough. Apart from the daily quibbles over  Maryada, there have been partisan and bitter debates on on the subject of Dasam  Granth, All India Sikh Gurdwara Act, status of Takht Sahibans, appointments of  top clergy, issues of resource distribution between Punjab, Haryana and Himachal  Pradesh, an increasingly widespread tendency at apostasy, the culture of  derawad, the issues of place of priestly class in Sikh society, the role of  missionary colleges and seminaris, and sundry other matters.

Stepping back  from such issues, there are larger issues of the Sikh community's interface with  the neo-liberal economy's realities that affects the religion and its  administration in interesting ways.

The issue of  virtually every village in Punjab having separate gurdwaras, the prevalence of  caste as a construct within the Sikh society, the increasing distance between  the Sikhs and the Dalits, the poor handling of the trouble caused by Sirsa  dera's fraudster sadh and the affect it has been having on Sikh-Dalit  relationship, are all issues that one would have thought would come in for  serious discussion within the SGPC.

Instead, we are  treated every year to the sorry spectacle of the SGPC leaders assuring us that  the affairs of the religious body are being run "exactly as per the wishes of  the Akali Dal leadership." This year, Avtar Singh Makkar, propped up as the  leader of the urban Sikhs, a non-Jat, and a spineless man to boot, educated us  that the SGPC affairs have always been decided by the Akali Dal leadership and  even asked the reporters, "Why do you have any doubt about it?" No one had any  doubts, but Makkar will go down in history as the man who spoke the shameless  truth with a straight face without flinching. 

That is a better  achievement than any Tohra. 

The Diaspora  Sikhs will do well to just compare the functioning of the SGPC to the way they  have been trying to run their community affairs. The new team at Surrey is  working on how to involve youth and children in community activities. It is  seeing education as a way out. The Fremont Sahib gurdwara team is working on how  to pull out the gurdwara administration from huge debts and integrate the sangat  into the day to day functioning of the community life in gurdwaras. The El  Sobrante gurdwara is paying attention to the growing role of the community and  thus trying to add infrastructure to the gurdwara while trying to take along the  local residents. 

As all of this  happens, the SGPC takes a cautious decision that suits the Badals: stay away  from the Guruta Gaddi celebrations since the Badals' write may not run all over.  So it just makes a token presence, then walks away. When the Sikhs the world  over were fully immersed in religiosity and a great chance was there to ensure  that the issue of education could be brought to the heart of all community  debate, the SGPC simply decides to squander it all away. 

The continuous  effort to keep Bibi Jagir Kaur near the power center of the Akali Dal and the  SGPC is also questionable considering the charges she is facing in courts of  law, and her perceived role in the murky affair of the death of her own  daughter. Even Cherie Blair had to blush, but not the Akali  leadership. 

Mismanagement  and malfeasance in the SGPC has been spoken of ad nauseum by now. Sometime back,  there was renewed talk in some circles about underlining the need for structural  and organizational changes but the machinations of the Badals have taken the  force out of the sails of such a revolution. 

Now we have a  situation where the Akali Dal president Sukhbir Singh Badal announces from any  available stage that his party is fielding four candidates for the Delhi  Assembly elections and two of them will be fighting on BJP symbols. "Earlier,  all were fighting on BJP tickets but this time two will fight on the Akali Dal's  own symbol," he said. 

Next time, you  don't even have to make an allegation that the Akali Dal is in league with the  RSS. Just quote Sukhbir Singh Badal. The novices are candid, though due to  stunted intellectual growth. 

Surely, if there  is nothing wrong with the Akali Dal candidates fighting on BJP symbol, there  can;t be much wrong with BJP candidates fighting on Akali Dal symbol. What now  is the hassle for any BJP member to fight elections to the SGPC under an Akali  Dal symbol? 

And where goes  the authority of Akal Takht amid all this debate when we all know who calls the  shots? No one family, no matter how powerful, can appropriate to itself the  entire decision making for the community. It is time the community talks back,  reacts back, and takes its affairs into its own hands. Otherwise “Koorr Phire  Pardhan Ve Lalo”. 

One of the most  definitive ways in which the lack of democracy and accountability gets  underlined is the way the budget making exercise of the SGPC takes place. The Rs  400 crore budget is transcribed in four thick volumes, made almost unreadable  thanks to the talent of the drafting team. Then it is presented before the  general house and in less than a minute, someone belts out the war cry of "Bole  So Nihal." As "Sat Sri Akal" echoes around the Teja Singh Samundri Hall, the  budget is declared passed. 

How would have  the mahant system been worse than this? 

When was the  last time you heard a discussion in the SGPC about how to cleanse the system,  how to formulate norms about who can be a member, how to end politicization of  the religious affairs body? Or how to make budgeting procedures more transparent  by opening ways of reviewing and auditing of the budget?   

The Sikh Nation must get its act together to pull the SGPC from  the morass it has slipped into. Every gurdwara, every forum of the Sikhs should  be debating the issue in its weekly gatherings. We need seminars, workshops,  debates on how to save the SGPC. It is not about the Badals or the Makkars, it  is about us.


26 November *2008*


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

Who is Gursikh? Who is trapped in Maya?


 *‘SGPC is Run by  Akali Dal, What’s Your Doubt Exactly?’
Sach Kanwal  Singh*
*
*​ 
 *AMRITSAR:* If it has  happened umpteen times in the past, could it be news? Well, it is news so long  as we keep missing the gravity of it all. In a complete go by to the last  vestiges of democratic norms, Punjab’s ruling Akali Dal which enjoys brute  majority in the SGPC asked its recently-baptized president Sukhbir Singh Badal  to choose a president for the Mini Parliament of the Sikhs.
 Shamelessly, he did. Instead of raising the traditions of  consultations, debate, democratic discourse and freedom of choice, Sukhbir  simply went ahead and chose not just the president but each of the office  bearers.
 

 When Avtar Singh Makkar had become  president for the first time, a leading English daily in Punjab had written that Falstaff had  become the president. Now, Falstaff seemed to be entrenched in the tragi-comic  drama that the annual SGPC election has become.
 

 Moments after his election, Makkar  The Falstaff had a gift wrapped for the community which he was quick to reveal:  No memorial for the victims and martyrs of Operation Bluestar, he has not even  heard of the resolution passed by the SGPC, and said there was no such  move.

 At a time when the Surrey sangat has demonstrated its resolve  to prepare the next generation for governance of gurdwaras and move ahead beyond  the luggage of history and divisiveness, Punjab’s Akalis are moving in the reverse  direction.

 All power is being concentrated  within one family’s fold, and those within the system have made their peace with  the little slice of power and pelf that the Family has thrown their way. 

 

 






So there were no discordant voices and no one  claimed that the right to free election has been virtually taken away as Avtar  Singh Makkar was nominated (yes, nominated) as the president of the SGPC for the  fourth straight term. 
 

 Within minutes, he paid his share of  the tribute to the way the SGPC functions. “The SGPC decision making is done by  the party, our Akali Dal. Whatever the Akali Dal leadership decides, the SGPC  runs as per that. What is so new about it?” It was not clear whether Makkar was  being candid or innocent, but one thing was. We sure are doomed to live, as the  Chinese say, in interesting times. 
 Before the SGPC poll day, the annual  ritual was taken over by the son from papa CM. Akali Dal members of the SGPC got  together in Chandigarh  and authorized Sukhbir Singh Badal to choose them a president for the SGPC.  Earlier, they used to vest all rights in Badal Sr. The power transition has  become a process instead of a one step decision.

 Sukhbir was entrusted with the  onerous task within days of getting himself baptized last September. He did not  flinch for a second.
 
No wonder, Makkar’s agenda was clear  to the world. The Hindustan Times said it was to “work as per the wishes of SAD  president Sukhbir Badal”.

 Earlier,        Pardhan Sahibs used to tumble out of a “lifaafa’, and were never sure till        the last moment what Badal Sahib’s “lifaafa” may reveal, this time Makkar        was smug. He knew he was sitting inside the “lifaafa” and will jump out        for the fourth time. He did. Good you guessed. Too bad we all did. It        tells the state of the community.

 Thanks to the clarity that Makkar  and Sukhbir display, the relationship is easy to guess for the media. Raghujit  Singh Virk from Haryana was elected senior vice-president, Gurdev Singh Badal  junior vice-president and Sukhdev Singh Bhaur as general secretary. 

 The committee also nominated ten  Badal loyalist members and an opposition member to its Executive.
 

 Makkar thanked Sukhbir, then Badal  Sr, then a few other members of the Family and then thought it fit to thank Akal  Purakh also. It seemed quite an afterthought, and he walked to the Darbar Sahib  to bow his head with cameras panning all around.

 There was some acrimony over issue  of a separate SGPC for Haryana and Makkar displayed a distance of light years  from something called humility when he snubbed opposition SGPC member Jagdish  Singh Jhinda.

 On his part, Jhinda did play his  card by proposing Karnail Singh Panjoli’s name for presidentship but Panjoli  clearly knew the rules of the party that he has joined recently. He said Makkar  was more competent. 

 The only  element different this time was that while earlier Pardhan Sahibs used to tumble  out of a “lifaafa’, and were never sure till the last moment what Badal Sahib’s  “lifaafa” may reveal, this time Makkar was smug. He knew he was sitting inside  the “lifaafa” and will jump out for the fourth time. Kya Chowka Maara hai,  Pardhan Jiyo. Guru Bhala Kare.


26  November 2008


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

What did Guru Gobind Singh ji mean when he said this?

The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)

_We can do better in this thread than we have so far done. _


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

I feel Bhagat Singh has raised some interesting points which need further investigations.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

satwant said:


> Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai guru maniyo granth.
> 
> the above is self explanatory. does it clarify your doubts about who is the guru?
> 
> Satwant


 
Satwant ji thank you for that.

I had/have no doubt who the Guru is of the Sikhs. Was just simply pointing it out to Bhagat Singh that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was just that and the same way he made it a hukam every Sikh must take amrit and if Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present then the Panj Pyare take on the role as decision making as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said, When the Panj Pyare are present take it as I am present before you. 

Also to the person that says I only listen to the next Guru or as they put it "new Guru"(Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). This is comletely barbaric statement. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Bani is Guru and Guru is the bani, simply telling us there is no difference from the previous Guru (Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji) and the Current eternal Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji); the Hukams by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji of taking amrit is just as important.

Once again thanks for presenting this Hukam Sawant


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> To those who believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj and the khalsa are equal as Guru. To those who believe that Sri Gobind Singh Patasha intended that his khalsa be seen as equal to the Granth Sahib, I say this:
> 
> Do you then behold your guru? Is it a reflection of yourself? Who of them is guru? Who of them is khalsa?


 
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Guru, but when Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present and decisions need to be made the Panj Pyare take on the role and together they represent Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji.

Now to anyone that say we don't need to take amrit then why is so much importants given to the Khalsa Panth. Is Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji being unfair here when he tells other Sikhs to listen to the Panj Pyare. Why didn't he just say the Sikhs collectively make the decisions. Also after one of the battles Guru Goibind Singh Sahib ji Singhs started pleading with him to depart, but he did not agree with them. The Singhs humbly reminded Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji of the Hukam he had made when he gave amrit to the Panj Pyare, that where and whenever 5 True Singhs would make a pure hearted decision that the Guru would be present in them and every decision taken by the Panj Pyare would taken as the decision of the Guru. Therefore the True Singhs took up the role as the Panj Pyare and took up the status of Guru ji and told Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji to leave the fortress, as he did.

To anyone that still says, but the Hukam was that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the current Guru, you are corect, but also just like Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji was the Guru of the Sikhs in the above saki and he had to obey the order of the Panj Pyare Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji would do the same. 


Five Singh came before him and told him he should leave, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji the present Guru at the time did not agree with them. Then humbly the Truesikhs came before him and said whenever 5 True Singhs make a make a pure decision the Guru would be present in them


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

Waheguru is the Absolute Truth, The Word and The Light. If we elect politico’s to govern and lead the hearts and minds of Sikhs is it not better advisable and provident to elect a religious leader of the faith to retain the authority of the Adi Granth at a time and juncture in the ages, when a fast changing culture and media trends are leading astray from the fold the generations. 

Would you not think, by the setting aside of wilful dogmatism , we as Punjabis should battle not with guns but with the sword of righteous truth to elect a Spiritual Leader, highly educated and wise from the ranks of the Sangat elite to reign over Punjab?.

An urgent need to retain and augment traditional family and cultural values in an age when media intrusion is leading away from long standing ethic the Sangat young.  Yes it was decreed by Guru Gobind Singh in his final words, that the word of the Adi Granth is full and complete. He did not say stipulate or elaborate that the state be divided, with political figures competing for dominance with the religious heads. 

A fully independent state governed by strong, intelligent religious leaders abiding by the word of the Granth than be fashion fads of media engineered whims and the demands of ignorant misguided malcontents.


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## pk70 (Nov 30, 2008)

*Honoring five Sikhs to order like Guru was Tenth Master’s foresightedness. His aim to eliminate one man’s power was astounding at that time. To put that practice in action today, one must know who five pyaras are. To understand the fact behind purity of Panj pyaras, let’s take an example from Guru Sahib’s own facing opposition and his ignoring of numbers of Sikhs. When Guru Sahib was surrounded by enemy forces and with false oaths, the enemy was trying to get Khalsa out of Hill refuge, about forty Sikhs got together( their hope was that Guru ji would listen to them being in high numbers) and went to Guru and said” We should leave, there is not enough food, we will die of hunger, they are swearing in the name of religion” Guru ji said” No, its their clever tactics”*
*Then forty Sikhs threatened to leave. Guru ji asked them to leave by terminating their alliance to him. And daringly they did. Now question rises here, if five Sikhs become panj pyaras and give order, shouldn’t we analyze their purpose, sincerity? Shouldn’t we find out who are they actually, who is behind them to order? Guru ji showed this to us with a practical. Today if by merely with closing eyes, we follow just panj pyaras, we would be serving Badal Family instead of Khalsa. Article posted by aad0002 ji are eye opening, it comes down the purity and sincerity of the five panj pyaras to qualify to issue orders to Khalsa. This core tenet of Khalsa has been heavily exploited by one family in **Punjab**. All those who are serving this family are to my foot; I am bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide me in such times of corruption. Am I disobeying Sree Guru Gobind Singh ji or following his insight he offered through practical?*


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## Archived_Member5 (Nov 30, 2008)

Gurus and true Saint are disinclined to run or flee when overcome by armies greater in number and arms. They are deeply loathe to squander lives of good men as potential sacrifice in the cause of warfare, as when victorious the sacrifice seems too large a burden to carry for the freedom gained, I think. We know with benefit of historical hindsight that it would be preferable for fifty men to die and we have as leader and Father a Guru to Guide and protect the word of truth and sanctity of cultural purity. Yet oftentimes it so transpires most good men will not happily or easily run from a stronghold when under threat by virtue of faith, and by nature of faith they hold belief in good triumphing over evil. 

We must study the situation subjectively and with wisdom. Badal or any politico is answerable to the Lok Saba n Delhi. The government although striving to be judicious in its dealing has a negative slant toward Punjab. Badal has therefore dual purposes and loyalties, primarily to his overseers, the government and then to the people of Punjab. If you tackle any outstanding dilemma and there is much to lay blame for, it must be with an emotionally detached hardened heart. What is past weeps biter tears of blood for past injuries. It is an unhealed wound if stoked, arouses the sleeping lions of Punjab. We must desist. With diligent and a conscientious application of tactile diplomacy and composed speech the state can be freed, and gain the independence vital to its cultural and economic prosperity and future. Constant faith and determination will win the freedom and liberation Punjabis all secretly yearn for. Honour, virtue and devout belief is far greater in power than angered words and casting of blame upon those themselves at the mercy of other demagogues.


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## stocksmgm (Nov 30, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> thank you singh ji for ur  back up . atleast someone has a similar thought
> Bhagat ji, can u tell me the reason  why the presence of both SGGS and panj pyare is required for any ceremony why cant it be done only by having SGGS and not panj pyare .:down:


I just don't understand the point here. It is simple and clear that SGGS is our Guru and Khalsa is way of life. Teachings of Guru lead you to be khalsa if followed in perfection. Panj Pyare were never nominated as Guru rather they were introduced as follower of the Guru whose way of life was khalas (Pure) . Saint Ji I will answer your question, Panj Pyare are required simply because when you are going to start a project whether of leading a pure life by following the teachings of your Guru (Amrit Pan) or laying a foundation of a building that will carry on the teaching of our Guru, you will need to have it started by the five elected individuals who you sincerely believe that they are khalsa (free of any impurities) and are in full compliance with the teachings of our Guru. So in conclusion, you will take Khalsa as a follower but not a Guru. I more agree with Bhagat than you Saint Ji.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Honoring five Sikhs to order like Guru was Tenth Master’s foresightedness. His aim to eliminate one man’s power was astounding at that time. To put that practice in action today, one must know who five pyaras are. To understand the fact behind purity of Panj pyaras, let’s take an example from Guru Sahib’s own facing opposition and his ignoring of numbers of Sikhs. When Guru Sahib was surrounded by enemy forces and with false oaths, the enemy was trying to get Khalsa out of Hill refuge, about forty Sikhs got together( their hope was that Guru ji would listen to them being in high numbers) and went to Guru and said” We should leave, there is not enough food, we will die of hunger, they are swearing in the name of religion” Guru ji said” No, its their clever tactics”*
> *Then forty Sikhs threatened to leave. Guru ji asked them to leave by terminating their alliance to him. And daringly they did. Now question rises here, if five Sikhs become panj pyaras and give order, shouldn’t we analyze their purpose, sincerity? Shouldn’t we find out who are they actually, who is behind them to order? Guru ji showed this to us with a practical. Today if by merely with closing eyes, we follow just panj pyaras, we would be serving Badal Family instead of Khalsa. Article posted by aad0002 ji are eye opening, it comes down the purity and sincerity of the five panj pyaras to qualify to issue orders to Khalsa. This core tenet of Khalsa has been heavily exploited by one family in **Punjab**. All those who are serving this family are to my foot; I am bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide me in such times of corruption. Am I disobeying Sree Guru Gobind Singh ji or following his insight he offered through practical?*


 
*Now question rises here, if five Sikhs become panj pyaras and give order, shouldn’t we analyze their purpose, sincerity?*

PK70 ji you make a valid point here and it would be clear if the Panj Pyare have made a valid decision because it wouldn't contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and if it did then it would be clear they do not represent Guru ji.  Now another question arises who would declare if it is valid or not, this would be done by the 5 Takhats. 

What the Badal family has done at Amritsar is a complete disgrace.  But this is what most people will not like about my post.  Who are to blame for letting this happen?  It us the Sikhs, who sit back and do nothing about it.  All we do is present articles and say look this is what is happening at Akal Takhat.  Some might be at fault more than others, but this does not make a difference we are one unit where is our stand.  Is our comfortable homes in the west that important to us that we let Sikhi come to what it is today?  When are we going to make a stand and say the CURRENT SGPC DOES NOT REPRESENT SIKHI FOR THEY DO NOT FOLLOW SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI.  

I say lets put all the issues aside and make a stand!  Whose with me on this?


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

stocksmgm said:


> I just don't understand the point here. It is simple and clear that SGGS is our Guru and Khalsa is way of life. Teachings of Guru lead you to be khalsa if followed in perfection. Panj Pyare were never nominated as Guru rather they were introduced as follower of the Guru whose way of life was khalas (Pure) . Saint Ji I will answer your question, Panj Pyare are required simply because when you are going to start a project whether of leading a pure life by following the teachings of your Guru (Amrit Pan) or laying a foundation of a building that will carry on the teaching of our Guru, you will need to have it started by the five elected individuals who you sincerely believe that they are khalsa (free of any impurities) and are in full compliance with the teachings of our Guru. So in conclusion, you will take Khalsa as a follower but not a Guru. I more agree with Bhagat than you Saint Ji.


 
Please read post 38 and 40 for a better understanding.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 30, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
I think an example can clear all the doubts :yes:. when Guru nanak and his sikhs were fighting with mughals in chamkaur the khalsa ordered the Guru to leave at the last times when the Guru wanted to enter the battle.and what the Guru did? he followed the orders given by the khalsa doesnt this shows that Guru sahib followed the khalsa and this is what the khalsa was made for :yes:.




> To those who believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj and the khalsa are equal as Guru. To those who believe that Sri Gobind Singh Patasha intended that his khalsa be seen as equal to the Granth Sahib, I say this:
> 
> Do you then behold your Guru? Is it a reflection of yourself? Who of them is Guru? Who of them is khalsa?


 
addoo2 i never compared khalsa with Guru ganth sahib . what im saying is we can follow Guru granth sahib under the Guidance of khalsa panth.:yes:

thank you once again aman ji for bringing up my question here:yes:


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> I think an example can clear all the doubts :yes:. when Guru nanak and his sikhs were fighting with mughals in chamkaur the khalsa ordered the Guru to leave at the last times when the Guru wanted to enter the battle.and what the Guru did? he followed the orders given by the khalsa doesnt this shows that Guru sahib followed the khalsa and this is what the khalsa was made for :yes:.
> 
> addoo2 i never compared khalsa with Guru ganth sahib . what im saying is we can follow Guru granth sahib under the Guidance of khalsa panth.:yes:
> ...



Gee! Saint_Soldier ji

Thanks for your reply -- so straight, so concise, so clear . Yes, Aman ji once again shows he can spot a topic for rich dialog :}{}{}: But I have more to say about the verses that you posted.

The basics for me revolve around pk70's observations, as follow: *it comes down the purity and sincerity of the five panj pyaras to qualify to issue orders to Khalsa. This core tenet of Khalsa has been heavily exploited by one family in **Punjab**. All those who are serving this family are to my foot; I am bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide me in such times of corruption. Am I disobeying Sree Guru Gobind Singh ji or following his insight he offered through practical?*

Because then the question becomes twofold. Who is khalsa? Who is pure? These make the verses of Guru Gobind Singh much more meaningful to me. 

We remember that these words below were said the day before he died. 

The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)


Guru Gobind Singh was leaving his Sikhs without a human guru to guide them in a time of great turmoil and suffering. So he was pointing them in a direction -- to find moral and spiritual guidance within the panth, to find dharma within the khalsa itself.  Before then Sri Guru had written in many places about his concern for following the path of dharma, by way of teaching us to think carefully about who is pure and who is not pure, what is pure and what is not pure. 

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਘਨੇ ॥ ਜਨ ਦੋਖਨ ਕੇ ਤਰ ਸੁੱਧ ਬਨੇ ॥ ਜਗ ਛੋਰ ਭਜਾ ਗਤ ਧਰਮਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਸੁ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰੀ ॥੯੫॥ 
Paap karai nit praat ghane|| Jan dokhan ke tar suddh bane|| Jag chhor bhajaa gat dharman kee|| Su jahaan paap kriaa prachuree||95||

They will commit new sins and talking about the blemishes of others, they themselves will remain pure; the followers of the religions, will forsake the world and run away and there will be the propagation of the sinful activities here and there.95.


ਸੰਗ ਲਏ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਾਪਨ ਹੀ ॥ ਤਜ ਭਾਜ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਜਗ ਜਾਪਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਦਿਵ ਪਿਤ੍ਰਨ ਪਾਵਕ ਮਾਨਹ ਗੇ ॥ ਸਭ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਨਹ ਗੇ ॥੯੬॥ 
Sang lae phirai paapan hee|| Taj bhaaj kriaa jag jaapan ki|| Divpitran paavak maanah ge|| Sabh aapan te ghattee jaanah ge||96||

All of them will roam, committing sinful acts and the activites of recitation and worship will flee from the world; they will not have any faith in gods and manes and will consider all others inferior to them.96. 

Dasam Granth, panna 1144

The verse posted by Saint_Soldier ji (I think recorded by Narinder Singh, I am not certain) needs to be examined in more depth. Forgive me.


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

And he said this,

Padmaavati Chhand||

PADMAVATI STANZA

 
 ਦੇਖੀਅਤ ਸਭ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਹ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੀ ਤਦਪ ਮਹਾ ਰਿਸ ਠਾਨੈਂ ॥ ਅਤਿ ਬਿਭਚਾਰੀ ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰੀਅ ਭਾਰੀ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ 
Dekheeat sabh paapi nah Har(i) jaapi tadap mahaa ris thaanain|| At(i) bibhchaari par treea bhaari dev pitar nahi maanai||

The sinners will be seen on all sides, there will be no meditation on the Lord; even then there will be great jealousy with one another; those who go to the wives of others and commit sinful acts will have no beliefs in gods and manes;
 
 ਤਦਪ ਮਹਾ ਬਰ ਕਹਤ ਧਰਮਧਰ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਮ ਅਧਿਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਸਭ ਆਖੈ ਮੁਖ ਪਰ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਖੈ ਦੇਹ ਪ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਚੜਿ ਗਾਰੀ ॥੯੨॥ 
Tadap mahaa bar kahat dharamdhar paap karam adhikaaree|| Dhrig dhrig sabh aakhai mukh par nahibhaakhai deh prisht cha?(i) gaaree||92||

Even then the sinners will remain religious leader; none will talk on the face, but slander others at the back.92.

Also on Panna 1144


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

He warned that no dharma would be left in the world,

ਨਵ ਨਵ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਬਢਿ ਗਇਓ ਭਰਮੰ ॥ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਪਾਪੀ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਾਪੀ ॥੯੧॥ 
Nav nav karamang|| Ba?h(i) gaio bharamang|| Sabh jah paapi|| Kahoon na jaapee||91||

Because of the new types of Karmas, the illusions will increase; the whole world will become sinful and no person repeating the Name or performing austerities, will be left in the world.91.

This was written well before the end of his life. But was Guru Gobind Singh urging his khasla to virtue and praying for his khalsa, even as he was celebrating them October 20, 1708?


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

What do you understand by Khalsa ?



> Now to anyone that say we don't need to take Amrit then why is so much importants given to the Khalsa Panth.





> What did Guru Gobind Singh ji mean when he said this?
> 
> The Khalsa is my own special form
> Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
> ...


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## Hari Atma (Nov 30, 2008)

The Siri Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru of the Sikhs.


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

A Sikh is a disciple; and an ideal or perfect disciple is called a Khalsa, which means the pure one. We may bear the Sikh label and wear the outer symbols of Sikhism, but if we have not become a Khalsa... then? The whole foundation of Sikhism was formed so that Sikhs should become Khalsas--and the Khalsa, what is He? When the full effulgent Light is lighted within, then know He is the Khalsa. And, what status is He then given? Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my brave Satguru. He is a type of Personality Who will never leave those under His care. Now, then, up to the end will He remain; Such a Person my mind desires. A Hindu lights the lamp and rings the bell, but he who lights the Inner Light is a true Hindu. And, a true Muslim? He who sees the Noor of Khuda, the Light of God, and hears the Kalam-i-Khadim, the Inner Sound. A true Christian is he who sees the Light of God and hears the Word, the Word of God. Those who have reached this stage are all one in Him.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> Satwant ji thank you for that.
> 
> I had/have no doubt who the Guru is of the Sikhs. Was just simply pointing it out to Bhagat Singh that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was just that and the same way he made it a hukam every Sikh must take amrit and



ok


> if Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present then the Panj Pyare take on the role as decision making as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said, When the Panj Pyare are present take it as I am present before you.


Where is this coming from?? 



> Also to the person that says I only listen to the next Guru or as they put it "new Guru"(Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). This is comletely barbaric statement.
> Why does new Guru bother you so much?
> 
> In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Bani is Guru and Guru is the bani, simply telling us there is no difference from the previous Guru (Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji) and the Current eternal Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji)


First of all there is a physical difference don't forget. This physical difference makes "Bani is Guru and Guru is the bani" a metaphor. Secondly, if SGGS is the eternal wisdom of Gurus then khalsa is definitely not their ETERNAL wisdom.

Therefore, you should not have any problem accepting just SGGS because it is the jyot of the human gurus.  There is no difference between SGGS and Gurus therefore, let's all follow SGGS!! 



> ; the Hukams by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji of taking amrit is just as important.


Our present Guru does not say.


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

namjap said:


> A Sikh is a disciple; and an ideal or perfect disciple is called a Khalsa, which means the pure one. We may bear the Sikh label and wear the outer symbols of Sikhism, but if we have not become a Khalsa... then? The whole foundation of Sikhism was formed so that Sikhs should become Khalsas--and the Khalsa, what is He? When the full effulgent Light is lighted within, then know He is the Khalsa. And, what status is He then given? Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my brave Satguru. He is a type of Personality Who will never leave those under His care. Now, then, up to the end will He remain; Such a Person my mind desires. A Hindu lights the lamp and rings the bell, but he who lights the Inner Light is a true Hindu. And, a true Muslim? He who sees the Noor of Khuda, the Light of God, and hears the Kalam-i-Khadim, the Inner Sound. A true Christian is he who sees the Light of God and hears the Word, the Word of God. Those who have reached this stage are all one in Him.



NamJap ji

This is kind of where my own thinking is going on the topic. I never really had to think about this issue very often or so hard until the thread was started. Your insight here is most appreciated -- because to be khalsa in the sense that you describe means that seeing the light of God and becoming cleansed from within is rare but is found everywhere. Guru Fateh!


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> NamJap ji
> 
> This is kind of where my own thinking is going on the topic. I never really had to think about this issue very often or so hard until the thread was started. Your insight here is most appreciated -- because to be khalsa in the sense that you describe means that seeing the light of God and becoming cleansed from within is rare but is found everywhere. Guru Fateh!


Agreed! Khalsa is not limited to just Sikhs. I read somewhere that Guru Gobind Singh considered some Muslims to be Khalsa.


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2008)

Bhagat ji

If you could remember where you read that I would be very grateful. It would be a good reference to have on file. Thank you


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> If you could remember where you read that I would be very grateful. It would be a good reference to have on file. Thank you


Here Antonia Ji,
The Evolution of the Word "Khalsa". | SikhNet


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## spnadmin (Dec 1, 2008)

Great!


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

The Khalsa cannot lead the Supreme Consciousness, this is a false misconception. It is an ideology giving birth to the farce that is democracy, a reign of demagoguery, the present main cause of wickedness and division in the world, as races, religions and nation’s war and battle for dominance, battling with an enemy within and without.

Waheguru Parmatma is Supreme and Absolute truth, to suggest or imply that this absolute clear and concise truth be led by the Khalsa or people is perfectly ludicrous. At this time there is no Godhood or league of Lordship, the assembly of the wise in the world. What has democracy, both eastern and western generated but despicable division, catastrophic chaos and confusion. 

It may be written the Guru sought or followed advice of his Panth as to what path to take. Would firmly question any such delusion and rather cities as a misappropriation of self exaltation, a missive given as devices to future subversives to use against the Gurus guidance and truth. 

The greatest part of spiritual enlightenment, peace and truth is to primarily submit to the will of the Supreme Being without full comprehension or understanding of its nature, will and ultimate force. It is when man gains asceticism he ceases to question and be critical and merges with Universal Consciousness.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 1, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
addoo2 ji ,
first of all plz dont bring dasam granth in between. it is debatable who was its author.and i hold that my Guru was not its author.:yes:
so for me the following lines hav no use ---:u):



> ਪਾਪ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਘਨੇ ॥ ਜਨ ਦੋਖਨ ਕੇ ਤਰ ਸੁੱਧ ਬਨੇ ॥ ਜਗ ਛੋਰ ਭਜਾ ਗਤ ਧਰਮਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਸੁ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰੀ ॥੯੫॥
> Paap karai nit praat ghane|| Jan dokhan ke tar suddh bane|| Jag chhor bhajaa gat dharman kee|| Su jahaan paap kriaa prachuree||95||
> 
> They will commit new sins and talking about the blemishes of others, they themselves will remain pure; the followers of the religions, will forsake the world and run away and there will be the propagation of the sinful activities here and there.95.
> ...


these lines sound like gospels

and after that--


> The verse posted by Saint_Soldier ji (I think recorded by Narinder Singh, I am not certain) needs to be examined in more depth. Forgive me.


i hav simply translated a shabad :whisling:-





> khalsa mero roop hai khas khalse me haun karon niwas.........................


and now a question from my side -the truth changes if all the mens of world dont accept it ???:{-is there a need for polls over this issue?????::
~~Gurukripa~~


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> first of all plz dont bring dasam granth in between. it is debatable who was its author.and i hold that my Guru was not its author.:yes:
> so for me the following lines hav no use ---:u):


If I remember correctly it was you who first posted lines from Dasam Granth.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> what i think is that Shri Guru Granth Sahib and Panth Khalsa is collectively the present sikh Guru :yes:. After the line of corporeal gurus was brought to an end by Guru Gobind Singh, the Khalsa Panth was installed its own leader under the abiding guidance of Guru Granth Sahib and guru ji himself was a member of khalsa panth.:yes: This may be cleared by the following lines by Guru gobind singh ji :yes: --
> The Khalsa is my own special form
> Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
> ...


This from Dasam Granth, you hypocrite.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Truth is Absolute. Truth does not change. Mans thinking changes according to his transient needs and whims, fashions and fads. Truth is Absolute and Immortal. All men have their personal truth, relative to the collective social truth. It is when they assimilate and align all three planes of truth as one they accomplish victory and success in life. Success is a dignified reconciliation with the world about you by understanding or submitting of will, or of gaining god consciousness, or universal truth, giving man an intuitive reasoning and gods eye view of his world in all its myriad of forms and colours. There are many facts of life as little streams and rivulets leading to the one immense ocean of wisdom containing many pearls. He who cognises, quantifies all truth to one concise definition worthy and attributable to all, he has found Wahegurus Spirit, Love and Truth ... 

Absolute Truth comes to some, and for others is it is an adventure, a journey of study upon a path travelled by many writers of great philosophies, where those who have reached the end gain a golden silence and rarely are found preaching.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Truth is Absolute. Truth does not change. Mans thinking changes according to his transient needs and whims, fashions and fads. Truth is Absolute and Immortal. All men have their personal truth, relative to the collective social truth. It is when they assimilate and align all three planes of truth as one they accomplish victory and success in life. ...


What a wonderful post, that is completely related to the topic at hand! :}:

The absolute truth is the the thread is about the Guru of Sikhs and not about absolute Truth.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Absolute Truth is Peace. From stilling the mind and gaining a golden awakened deep peace, man is released from his mortal being, and his Spirit becomes one with the universal energy force. Jiwan Mukti*.  

From this sublime and ethereal peace is born Love. God is Love, Truth and Peace. Truly Blessed are they who are in receipt of all three powers, and gain their Swarg here on Earth.

The many paths of truth seeking are a passage to the great Absolute Truth that Is God Consciousness. Transcendentalism.  Ascetism. Jiwan Mukti.

Enjoy lifes journey and adventure, bad days, and good times all teach a lesson, and diminish with the gaining of empirical understanding.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

I give up...


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Sorry Bhagat Ji, your sarcasm and irony was entirely lost on me, I apologise, forgive me....

Jeeti Johal.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

haha, so who is the present Guru of Sikhs?
Is it 
a. Guru  Granth Sahib
b. Panth Khalsa
C. all of the above

Explain.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

The Guru Granth Sahib is the Living Truth and Word and Guru of all Sikhs ... 

Waheguru ...


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> The Guru Granth Sahib is the Living Truth and Word and Guru of all Sikhs ...
> 
> Waheguru ...


Ok thanks for your input. make sure you vote.


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2008)

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]To quote Bhatt Vahi Talauda Parganah Jind:  "Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth Master, son of Guru Teg Bahadur,  grandson of Guru Hargobind, great-grandson of Guru Arjan, of the family  of Guru Ram Das Surajbansi, Gosal clan, Sodhi Khatri, resident of  Anandpur, parganah Kahlur, now at Nanded, in the Godavari country  in the Deccan, asked Bhai Daya Singh, on Wednesday, 7 October 1708,  to fetch Sri Granth Sahib. In obedience to his orders, Daya Singh  brought Sri Granth Sahib. The Guru placed before it five pice  and a coconut and bowed his head before it. He said to the sangat, "It is  my commandment: Own Sri Granthji in my place. He who so acknowledges it  will obtain his reward. The Guru will rescue him. Know this as the truth".[/FONT]  [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] Guru  Gobind Singh thus passed on the succession with due  ceremony to the Holy Book, the Guru Granth Sahib, ending the line  of personal Gurus. "The Guru's spirit," he said, "will henceforth  be in the Granth and the Khalsa. Where the Granth is with any five  Sikhs representing the Khalsa, there will the Guru be." The Word  enshrined in the Holy Book was always revered by  the Gurus as well as by their disciples as of Divine origin.  The Guru was the revealer of the Word. One day the Word was to  take the place of the Guru. The inevitable came to pass when  Guru Gobind Singh declared the Guru Granth Sahib as his successor.  It was only through the Word that the Guruship could be made  everlasting. The Word as contained in the Guru Granth Sahib  was henceforth, and for all time to come to be the Guru for  the Sikhs.[/FONT]


Sikh Gurus


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## sarbjitpunjabi (Dec 1, 2008)

quote=satwant;90139]Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai guru maniyo granth. 

the above is self explanatory. does it clarify your doubts about who is the guru?


sadhsangat ji , 
gurfateh .
*COULD ANY BODY QUOTE US THE PAGE AND SALOKA OF AAD GRANTH JI  , WHERE ANYBODY HAS READ ABOVE DOHA ? < DO`NT FORGET THAT THIS IS MAIN THESIS OF AKALI SCHOOL OF THOUGHT REGARDING AAD GRANTH AS GURU >*
SARBJIT SINGH
TORONTO


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## pk70 (Dec 1, 2008)

sarbjitpunjabi said:


> quote=satwant;90139]Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai guru maniyo granth.
> 
> the above is self explanatory. does it clarify your doubts about who is the guru?
> 
> ...



*Certainly it is not in Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji but here is a quote that it self appoints Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru of the Sikhs after the departure of Tenth  Nanak*. *None is left to represent Guru Nanak but Sree Guru Granth Saib, all others are below it. A Sikh can interpret Guru teachings and become guide but neverever can reach to the level of Guru Nanak.
*ਪੰਨਾ 982, ਸਤਰ 10
*ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥
बाणी गुरू गुरू है बाणी विचि बाणी अम्रितु सारे ॥
Baṇī gurū gurū hai baṇī vicẖ baṇī amriṯ sāre.
The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.
ਮਃ 4*


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## spnadmin (Dec 1, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Sorry Bhagat Ji, your sarcasm and irony was entirely lost on me, I apologise, forgive me....
> 
> Jeeti Johal.



On behalf of respected forum member jeetijohal and others (like me). Sometimes we have to be careful with the use of sarcasm. I am sometimes an offender in this regard. And I apologize. It is important to recognize that on the internet all a reader has to work with are the words in a post. Tone of voice, facial expression, gestures and all the other things that tell us that a person is being sarcastic, or facetious, or ironic, and so forth -- these clues are not there. So misunderstanding comes into a discussion. Maybe when we are doing this we should indicate that. The emoticons we have don't cover the range so perhaps we have to be creative. Thank you

Also, please vote! There is a poll at the top of the page.


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## jasi (Dec 1, 2008)

Sat shri Akal ji.

The living Guru for al sikhs is Shabads. Guru Granth Sahib JI is full of Shabads left by our Gurus and final staement made by Shri Guru Gobind Singh ji to accpet the Guru Granth Sahib Ji as your Guru.

So there is always will be like that  forever.

Jaspi. 



Aman Singh said:


> This question was raised by SPN members while taking Quizzes on Sikhism about: who is the present Guru of Sikhs? Are Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panth Khalsa collective Guru of Sikhs? Intellectuals may put light on the issue in full length.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Certainly it is not in Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji but here is a quote that it self appoints Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru of the Sikhs after the departure of Tenth Nanak*. *None is left to represent Guru Nanak but Sree Guru Granth Saib, all others are below it. A Sikh can interpret Guru teachings and become guide but neverever can reach to the level of Guru Nanak.*
> ਪੰਨਾ 982, ਸਤਰ 10
> *ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥*
> *बाणी गुरू गुरू है बाणी विचि बाणी अम्रितु सारे ॥*
> ...


If amrit is contained in bani then why are we wasting time with sweetened water?


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## Amritdhari_grl (Dec 1, 2008)

Um okay. This is a very weird thread. Should there reall be any doubt as to who the Guru of the Siks is? I mean it comes up in ardaas everyday. As Guru Gobind Singh was getting ready to leave this world he said:

"Subh sikhn ko hukam hei guru maneo granth. guru granth jee maneo pargut gura kee deh jo prubh ko milbu chaha koj shaabad mei lay."

The Khalsa isn't the GURU. It's just Guru Gobind Singh Ji's roop. (Form) The Guru Granth is the true Guru because the Khalsa bows to Guru Granth Ji. Also the Guru Granth Saahib is what the Khalsa follows. With out it and the baani inside, there wouldn't be a proper Khalsa.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Amritdhari_grl ji, how would you answer my question just above your post?


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## pk70 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> If amrit is contained in bani then why are we wasting time with sweetened water?




*It is very sad to read a comment like this about Gurbani from a young Sikh.*
*Amrit is not here used as sweetened things; it is all about the ecstasy one goes in after experience HIM through Gurbani. Who have spiritual experience they have expressed it with many words we ordinary individuals play with like children. Limits of understanding limit the scope of every beautiful experience described.*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *It is very sad to read a comment like this about Gurbani from a young Sikh.*
> *Amrit is not here used as sweetened things; it is all about the ecstasy one goes in after experience HIM through Gurbani. Who have spiritual experience they have expressed it with many words we ordinary individuals play with like children. Limits of understanding limit the scope of every beautiful experience described.*


You have completely misunderstood my question.

Let me clarify
_If Amrit(how you described it) is contained in bani then why are we wasting time with sweetened water(khande bata da amrit, water + sugar)? _


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## Amritdhari_grl (Dec 1, 2008)

okkay. simple. amirt has the POWER of bani inside it. because when we prepare amrit five bania are read while the arit is being stirred. that "energy" from reading the bani travels into the amrit and then that amrit is like the physical form of that bani.

also, admit it. few people in this world ever read bani just because they want to. when you take amrit, you are committing yourself to walking down guru's path. YOU ARE MAKING A PROMISE TO GURU GOBIND SINGH. This promise includes following the rehat which he told us to follow, which includes reading bani daily. Now this next part has been PROVEN:
the more and longer you read bani, the more you begin to understand it. few of us younger folk can understand what bani is saying and some older folk know what the words mean but they do not understand thier significance. The more an more you read bani the more you understand what it means and just how helpful it is to you. NOW this bani becomes the amrit for you because reading it and understanding it and applying it to your life purify you and MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON. but only once you can understand it. but you can only understand it if you read it often. and lets face it no one does anything iin this world unless the WANT to or they HAVE to. when we take amrit we HAVE to read bani everyday because no one wants to break a promise to the Guru. this more or less forces us to begin understanding bani and seeing ourselve what kind of amrit it is.

seriously amrit is complicated and it doesn't just have to be "sweetened water' don't thiink of it that way. It degrades the whole point of it. (mentioned above)

wjk wjf

p.s i hope i haven't said anything wrong. i am an ignorant fool.


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## pk70 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> You have completely misunderstood my question.
> 
> Let me clarify
> _If Amrit(how you described it) is contained in bani then why are we wasting time with sweetened water(khande bata da amrit, water + sugar)? _




*Your question shows that you haven't got the meaning of "Amrit" used in above Guru Vaak because it has nothing to do with "sweetened water" you are stuck with.*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Your question shows that you haven't got the meaning of "Amrit" used in above Guru Vaak because it has nothing to do with "sweetened water" you are stuck with.*


:shock:
Forget i ever asked. :}:


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## pk70 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> :shock:
> Forget i ever asked. :}:




*I have.*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Good stuff.


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## kds1980 (Dec 2, 2008)

I beleive That Guru granth sahib is the only Guru of sikhs
But on the other hand panth khalsa is also very important if not equally.
We can't consult Guru granth sahib for timely problems we need some one in body to take decision at that time .So it is the duty of panth khalsa to take decision which should be 
accepted by entire sikh community of that time.Other wise we will have millions of people interpretting Guru granth sahib to suit their agenda


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 2, 2008)

Amrit is sanctified Holy water, it is administered by a Gianni and has a prayer chanted over it. A concoction of sugared water undergone a similar process is a ceremonial symbolism. If your inference is that Sikhs are worshipping a false deity, then it is a baseless one without foundation. Yes we have Sangat s and committees’ but none to stand as Godhead for the Adi Granth or Sikh faith. Yes many ruthlessly ambitious persons would dearly love to highlight their lucrative careers and positions of power with the sanctity and great power of a religious mantle. Yet we find few such noble souls in the halls of government, religion or society of such irreducible grandeur in Spiritual form. 

Yes in this age of Kalyug the only public figures of renown are those who strive for power than are exalted by merit, it is true. A sign of the times, looking back historically since time started and creation came into being there was always One who had power, and another who enviously coveted it, it is the hellish nature of human existence. Sikhs sought to overcome this eternal cycle of the blind leading the despairing, by determining a mormonist stance of application of pure wisdom than a search for idols and Icons, who by nature of being human are fallible and liable to be corrupted, and if aren’t, are tormented and scandalised. It is alas the nature of the beast that is life. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the eternal living truth, and each Sikh a leading eternal light of the great flame. God is creator, father, so and eternal child. He is in all things as all that is pure and good is He.

Satnam Waheguru ....


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 2, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> If I remember correctly it was you who first posted lines from Dasam Granth.


 
Sat shri akal,
bhagat singh ji,:inca:
I know that these lines r in dasam granth but that is not the only source. i dont remember exactly:crazy: but this shabad is included in some other written work :}:.

~~Gurukripa~~


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 2, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> This from Dasam Granth, you hypocrite.


 
hmm bhagat ji u really hav a slow understanding . i thought u already knew it.

btw do u hav any personal enmity with singh ji or saint soldier??????:shock:
will u plz end this antagonism.:}:

~~Gurukripa~~


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> addoo2 ji ,
> first of all plz dont bring dasam granth in between. it is debatable who was its author.and i hold that my Guru was not its author.:yes:
> so for me the following lines hav no use ---:u):
> ...


Then why would you say that to someone who presented quotes from Dasam Granth?
BTW Dasam Granth itself is not one source.

You've shown me that I really do not have a slow understanding when it comes to you.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> I know that these lines r in dasam granth but that is not the only source. i dont remember exactly:crazy: but this shabad is included in some other written work :}:.


Thats a nice way out of a tight situation.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> btw do u hav any personal enmity with singh ji or saint soldier??????:shock:


seems like your understanding of the forums is quite slow. There can't be any personal enmity when it comes to forums.



> will u plz end this antagonism.:}:


What do you mean? and Why am I being targeted??

Again, nice way to escape from a tight situation.


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## Astroboy (Dec 2, 2008)

Cool it guys. Debate the issues not the person.
Take a peep into:
 *Forum Rules/Guidelines*


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 2, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
thank you namjap ji for these forum rules .why dont u send this to every member through pms.:yes:



> Again, nice way to escape from a tight situation.


hey u want me to say something


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> hey u want me to say something


no!


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## stocksmgm (Dec 4, 2008)

Panj Piyare has the vested power of Takhat which is our political chair of sikhs or khalsa Panth and do have the living authority to pass orders.  Guru is a Teacher and will not undertake that role. If we familiarize ourself with the sikh history we can clearly understand the fundametal difference.  Badal is no body to base our argument on. It has been the weekness of our Panth to allow a person like him to run our Takhat, it should be otherway around. {Badshah sab vas kar dine, amrit naam mahan ras peeneh...} So again our Guru is Guru Granth Sahib) and our supreme political power is Takhat as a chair and Panj Piyare is the cabinet in today's language.


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## pk70 (Dec 4, 2008)

*Guru Teachings are constitution of Sikh religion, the Khalsa is to protect it with exemplary living according to the Guru Teachings to guide the masses in case they go estray. Above all, still is the Guru, Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji* *who enables the followers to understand if Khalsa is real or in disguise.*:yes:


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## jasi (Dec 4, 2008)

Sat Shri Akal ji. 

What ever is mentioned in these lines are eternal and true. Let other prople who has life on thier disposal to learn what is mentioned with great belief. The the light will come.
Faith is the most essntial part of one 's chracter. People who has difficuties in believing themselve wiil alway be among those people to critisize thier GIru's Shabad.
Jaspai



SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> addoo2 ji ,
> first of all plz dont bring dasam granth in between. it is debatable who was its author.and i hold that my Guru was not its author.:yes:
> so for me the following lines hav no use ---:u):
> ...


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 6, 2008)

jaspi said:


> Sat Shri Akal ji.
> 
> What ever is mentioned in these lines are eternal and true. Let other prople who has life on thier disposal to learn what is mentioned with great belief. The the light will come.
> Faith is the most essntial part of one 's chracter. People who has difficuties in believing themselve wiil alway be among those people to critisize thier GIru's Shabad.
> Jaspai


 
Sat shri akal,
dear jaspi ji let me appreciate  the way u hav pointed out me. :shifty:
The first question hav u ever read dasam granth?? it is the worst scripture and similar to kamasutra . why dont u sing those love making stories as shabads :}--}:??if i could do this i would hav burned all its copies:}--}:.how can u even imagine  such a great man like Guru nanak writing all that stuff?
the second thing is that u hav criticized my beliefs .why so???:{- 

 btw i apologize:roll:  if i hav broken the forum rule of not abusing any sikh scripture and im ready for the consequences :yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru nanak~~


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2008)

Saint_Soldier ji

You have suggested that you have not disrespected any Sikh Scripture by comparing the Dasam Granth to love songs, kamasutra, "worst scripture." And you say you are ready for the consequences if some believe that you have shown disrespect. This tells me, just one person, that you have already figured that your words could be taken as disrespect, and that some forum members might be insulted by this or even out-raged. 

Here are some questions to ponder:

1. Are your comments relevant to the thread topic Who Is the Present Guru of Sikhs?

2. Some takhts and many Sikhs, even within Singhsaba, consider Dasam Granth the work of Nanak X. This is not just the opinion of sects within Sikhi like Nihangs. Why should they not be irritated by your words?

3. Some sects like Nihangs give equal importance to Dasam Granth even though this is not mainstream belief. Nihangs are Sikhs and as such deserve at minimum that we avoid smearing their beliefs with negative opinions. Dasam Granth devotees can sometimes be fanatics and therefore difficult to converse with. Is this always true? No, it is not, because sometimes they are very level-headed people. Should they not be addressed in a level-headed way/

4. The SGPC has tasked scholars who know what they are talking about to evaluate original birs to see if they were written by the 10th Master. This is a mature and unemotional approach to the subject -- a rare occurrence for SGPC -- and this needs to be taken seriously. IMHO. At some point this controversy will be unraveled and it will be resolved. I can wait. Can you?

5. Many of the prayers that you and I say are part of the Dasam Granth. No need to list them. You know which ones they are. In light of that fact, why bring Dasam Granth controversies up in this particular thread?

6. Only a fraction of the Bani of the 10th Master contains sexual content. In fact only parts of some sections are thus.  Most of it does not. If that part of the Bani was written by someone other than the 10th Master, then it eventually will be discovered. So why the challenge to another forum member over a small part of the Bani when the rest of it is very spiritual material?

7. Could it be that the small part that does have sexual content should be read on another level as metaphor and not taken so literally? In other words, can we detach from our emotionality from time to time?

So at this time, no deletions are in order. But we can do better. If the thread goes off course then deletions will happen. More important is that everyone understand that unlike other forums, SPN has not taken a position of the Bani of the 10th Master. SPN permits debate. That means in turn that everyone has to find their dignity and discuss the issues of Dasam Granth instead of instigating arguments out of context. So please think about what I have asked above.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 6, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
aad0002 ji,
my post was a reply to the post of jaspi ji
one can only disrespected something that deserves respect:yes:




> 1. Are your comments relevant to the thread topic Who Is the Present Guru of Sikhs?


sorry but i hav just replied to the post of jaspi ji




> 2. Some takhts and many Sikhs, even within Singhsaba, consider Dasam Granth the work of Nanak X. This is not just the opinion of sects within Sikhi like Nihangs. Why should they not be irritated by your words?
> 
> 3. Some sects like Nihangs give equal importance to Dasam Granth even though this is not mainstream belief. Nihangs are Sikhs and as such deserve at minimum that we avoid smearing their beliefs with negative opinions. Dasam Granth devotees can sometimes be fanatics and therefore difficult to converse with. Is this always true? No, it is not, because sometimes they are very level-headed people. Should they not be addressed in a level-headed way/
> 
> ...


 
oh god ur teaching me?


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 6, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> oh god ur teaching me?


She is trying to reason with you. If you don't see it, dont bother posting.


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> aad0002 ji,
> my post was a reply to the post of jaspi ji
> one can only disrespected something that deserves respect:yes:
> ...



Veer ji 

Yes, I am trying to inject reason and a reasonable point of view here. Trying to smooth out some of the sharp ridges in the discussion. Try to point out that several points of view deserve respect. This would not be a thread where animosity per se or animosity over Dasam Granth needs to be stirred up. Thanx for the question. But next time Dasam Granth comes up here all post including mine are going to be moved to a different thread or deleted.


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 7, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
allright this was a mistake on my part and i apologize and il try not to repeat this.
i hope im free to express my views on any topic and that is what i was doing .:yes:
and if this fool has hurt someones sentiments ofcourse this was not my  intention .:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru nanak~~


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 15, 2008)

With regard and reverence for the Shri Dasam Granth venerable books attributed to by some as a veritable Karma Sutra remake. It is said and known by the enlightened that God is a Wisdom, a Truth leading to a sublime peace, the state of mind from where Supreme Love, the purest life form is found. Love Wisdom and Peace are the three facets and paths to what is the Supreme Universal Spirit.

In ages of debauchery and immorality wherein all that is sacrosanct is rendered sacrilegious and profane causes such confusion to arise. The notion of the pure and strong race of Godhood to be associated with matters reviled and defamed is a complex but readily simplified issue. The path to wisdom, truth and love is as narrow as it is broad dependent upon the traveller’s ego and intellect. Narrow paths appear broad and free to the pure and supplicated mind, to the impure and egotistical consumed by gain broad highways are constricting and difficult to travel upon. 

Love is the highest condition of existence for man, the true state of love is one where the mind, heart and soul are so consumed with goodness and cleansed that the vision perceives beauty, truth and goodness in all things. The captors of love seek greedily to hold its power and grace to no avail, if successful they poison the sacred sprit of love, until it is sullied beyond compare. Few utter the name of love without an anger or resentment of all associated drama with it. Freeing a world from debauchery and perverse desire, liberating the soul until it want and desires no more is the task of any saint. 

Pure love is the sacred elixir for which Kings and Saints alike give their soul, for it is perfect trust and security. A grace granted to most upon demise, and to the blessed few who are able to find such a companion and life partner who engenders all virtue and graces whereby man becomes as his God finding all peace and contentment within the sacred sanctum of his home.

Mere mortals seek to bypass the basic premise of the path to Love's threshold, and a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah is roused thereby. Immorality indeed creates an insatiable den of iniquitous greed, a carnal hunger the more it consumes the greater it craves. This is a malady and disease requiring remedy. We observe the modern world thinking itself free whilst so entangled and embroiled in the web of lechery and revolting licentiousness. And we repel all such notions of carnal lust masquerading as Love.

There are similar books to the Dasam Granth written in all scriptures, mans journey and path of enlightenment leading to spiritual liberation from need and desire. Where Love dwells nothing impure can near. Where paap or sin prevail, love remains not for long, no matter how strong the spells and chains that bind it.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 15, 2008)

As long as that book says that some dude with thousands of limbs, secreted earth out of his ear, you can't take those writings seriously.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 22, 2009)

1. Guru Granth Sahib Ji was bestowed on the Gurgadee of Nanak by the Last nanak Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Nanded 1708.( Jyot/Atma of nanak- Divine Message)

2.The Guru Khalsa Panth (Body of Nanak).

3. The Guru Khasa Panth is SUBSERVIENT to the SGGS - the SGGS cannot be changed/adulterated/altered by any living human being as it is the Divine revealed WORD- Shabad...BUT..

4. The Guru Khalsa Panth has the Moral and Administrative AUTHORITY bestowed upon it by Guru Gobind Singh Ji - proved on THREE DISTINCT OCASSIONS - 

a) when Guru Gobind RAI..bowed before the Panj at Vasakhi Day 1699 in Anadpur sahib to RECEIVE Khandey Batte dee PAHUL and undergo a Name Change from Guru Gobind Rai to Guru Gobind SINGH as was ordaiend to all other SIKHS who took Pahul. 

b) When Guru Ji "lowered his Arrow towards the Grave of a Mulsim Pir ( as aTEST)..the Panj Accompanying Guru Ji SANCTIONED this ACT as against Maryada and Guru Ji asked for FORGIVENESS for thsi misdemeanour. 

c) AT the Garhee in Chamkaur when the Guru was ORDERED by the PANJ to EVACUATE and withdraw from the Garrhee as the Panj decided that the Guru was needed ALIVE and could not be allwoed to be martyred along with hsi two sons and all the sikhs left. The Guru OBEYED this Order and Left the Garhhe and travelled through the Mughal Forces towards the Muktsar Malwa region. A SIKH who looked remarkeably like Guru ji was dressed in his Robes and had the Gurus Klagi attached to his Dastaar and he was the one the Mughals thought was the Guru when they finally overran the garhhe the next day.

5. The TOUCHSTONE of GURBANI in the SGGS is to be basis of any and all decisions undertaken by the Guru Khalsa Panth.

6. NO ONE can by HIMSELF be "admitted" to the Guru's "House". IT was NOT Bhai Lehnna Ji that made himself Guru Angad..He was CHOSEN/APPOINTED by GURU NANAK...simialrly for all the succeeding Gurus... In the PRESENT CONTEXT..NO ONE can "self admit" himself/herself....to be the "SIKH" of the SGGS. The GURU DEEKHYA..is a CEREMONY whereby the SIKH is ADMITTED by the GURU to be his disciple. This GURU DEEKHYA now works in the KHANDEY BATTEH DEE PAHUL whereby the PANJ in the August PRESENCE of the SGGS..admit a SIKH into the KHALSA BROTHERHOOD. This is the reason why the GURU KHALSA PANTH has the authoruty to DECIDE ona dn Formualte changes in REHAT MARYADA..Nitnem Banis, ardass, etc etc. The ONLY thing that cannot change is the SGGS GURBANI as no one can write any more "Gurbani" as the Human Gurus era is OVER.

7. THose "Sikhs" who claim they are SIKHS of the SGGS are self delusional...as the SGGS cannot give "GURU DEEKHYA"..admission to anyone. That DUTY was passed to the PANJ by Guru Gobind Singh ji in 1699, and CERTIFIED as the ONLY WAY to be a SIKH of the SGGS...even GURU GOBIND RAI went through the SAME ADMISSION to prove this POINT.
He was already DE FACTO GURU by virtue of having been bestowed Gurgadee after the martyrdom of his Father Guru teg bahdur Ji....BUT he STILL BOWED before the PANJ to recieve admission to the KHALSA. AAPEH GURU..AAPEH CHELA !!

Just like the "Constitution" of a country cannot give Citizenship to anyone..no matter how much I may Love the American Constitution, memorise it be able to recite it backwards..etc etc and be willing to DIE for it...ONLY the American Govt/Senate/Congress etc can Make me an American Citizen...BUT then EVEN the American Govt/senate/congress CANNOT give me American Citizenship IF I REFUSE to "affirm my beleif/pledge allegiance" to the Same Constitution..THIS is the exact same relationship between the SGGS (written Constitution) and the Khalsa ( the administrative Body) Only one BIG difference is that the American Congress/Senate can CHANGE the Constitution..BUT the Guru Khalsa Panth CANNOT CHANGE the SGGS even by a full stop..dandee !!:happy:


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## jasi (Oct 23, 2009)

S.S.AKAL JI.

Thanks for your postings and it is 100% correct. We have to move forward to be more related to each others by shedding all beliefs on cast sysytem whic has sweped into our sikhism .Dividing us apart since 1925 even before.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj gave us tremendous identity to be Bhai sahib to each others.

jaspi


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## khalsa1469 (Dec 14, 2009)

I have written something that sheds light upon this question.  Please see the first point of discussion.

* "Dasam" Granth - A Look at the Core Problems *

   By Gaurav Singh

Like so many other issuesthat contemporary Sikhs choose to deal with, the issue Dasam Granth is contrived and, indeed, a "red herring" (in that, it is meant to divert attention). I largely agree with Sardar I. J. Singh's take on things in his article on Sikhchic.com and would like to make some further distinctions that may help separate "the wheat from the chaff."

Rather than getting into minutiae, historical or otherwise, it is sometimes more helpful to understand the basis, the fundamentals, the core, the _Tat_ of the issue under consideration. In my understanding the fundamentals under concern here are:

1) Who/what is Guru?
2) Who has the right to decide the status of what is and what is not Guru?
3) In light of the above, what is the status of the so-called Dasam Granth?

Sardar I. J. Singh has shed light upon this by exposing, quite simply, the hypocrisy practiced by those who believe in any real relation between Guru Gobind Singh and Hemkunt (as a historical GurAsthan). Of course, if Sikhs give no credence to the Hindu pilgrimages visited by Lehna ji (later became a Sikh, and then, Guru Angad) and Amar ji (later became a Sikh, and then, Guru Amar Das) in the same life which saw them first become Sikhs and then the Guru, then how can a GurSikh deign to validate an alleged previous life of Guru Gobind Singh?

The Gurmat here is that we are engaged with and get our guidance from the Guru, and the actions of Nanak II & III prior to their ascension to the status of the Guru do not have the sanction of (what I term) Guru-authority. So, any validity to an alleged previous life of Nanak X is beyond baffling and, certainly, not Gurmat.

Now back to the core. Who is the Guru?

The Guru existed prior to Guru Nanak and shall always exist, as long as there is existence, since the Guru is Shabad. This fact is also apparent because of the inclusion (within Guru Granth Sahib) of the Bani of Sheikh Farid and Bhagat Kabir, etc. who preceded Guru Nanak Sahib. Here, I shall not address the fact that there are some distinctions made by Guru Nanak I-V in reference to “Bhagat” Bani.

At this time, I should make clear the distinction between Guru and, what I term, Guru-authority. When Guru Nanak sanctioned Guru Angad as the Guru going forward, he himself lived for some time thereafter. No sane person would suggest that the Guru within Guru Nanak suddenly left him and went into Bhai Lehna. When Guru Angad becomes Guru it does not mean that Guru Nanak is not Guru. Guriai is not a zero-sum game. Rather, it is akin to a Jot (en)light(en)ing another Jot.

Therefore, what Guru Nanak passed onto Bhai Lehna was the Guru-authority. Bhai Lehna was, in fact, indistinguishable from Guru Nanak, hence his Ang(ad). What they had in common was the enlightenment from Shabad Guru!



So, at the same time in 1539 CE existed Guru Angad Sahib (Guru-authority) and Guru Nanak. In a smaller sense this could be understood through the concept of Presidency in the United States. Barack Obama is the President, while George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H. W. Bush and Carter are also Presidents. All but Obama, however, are not charged with the authority to make executive decisions for the 50 states in the union.

The difference here is that the de jure authority for Presidents is conferred by the constitution and, loosely speaking, by the people. Whereas, the Guru-authority is conferred upon Guru Nanak by the 1 and this authority is further recognized by the people with the ability to make that distinction – the Sikhs (and I would distinguish them from the “Sikhs”, for instance, Sain Mian Mir was a Sikh of the Shabad Guru, yet not a “Sikh”). The de facto and moral charge of the Guru is given by the people whose commitment is to themselves be transformed by the _Mat_ of the Guru.

The transfer of Guru-authority continued 9 more times when it came to Guru Gobind Singh. It was Guru Gobind Singh’s charge, as it was of every Guru-authority before him, to decide what is and what is not Guru(bani). With this established, I shall point out a fact:

Not every word communicated by the Guru-authority, whether spoken or written, is Gurbani or Guru!

For instance, if the Guru (Nanak I-X) asked a mundane question – the address to someone’s home – it is not Gurbani. Only that which the Guru confers with the status of Gurbani is such. This is obvious, yet clearly not understood by many.

There is not a single word of Nanak VI-VIII in what was to become Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS). Of course, in their lifetime each Guru Sahiban spoke and, no doubt, wrote words.

_But mere words, no matter how powerful, do not Gurbani make!_

Word(s) becomes Shabad Guru, only when it is given such status by the Guru-authority.

But more relevant to our issue, Guru Gobind Singh (who completed the authorship of what was to be SGGS) consciously chose to include Guru Tegh Bahadar Sahib’s Bani and also made a conscious decision *not* to include any of his own Bani within SGGS.

I ask for your patience in looking at further implications and urge the readers to keep their emotional responses and mental discomfort in check as they read on.

Whether one word or the entire so-called Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib himself, it is *not* Gurbani or Shabad Guru, on its own. The Guru himself decided that by not including a single word of his own within SGGS.

So, are the supporters of the “Dasam” Granth then challenging the Guru by conferring the status of Gurbani to parts of the so-called Dasam Granth? Yes and No!

*Yes:* Because of the pervasive ignorance of the reasoning above, on its face – Yes, these “Sikhs” are in a way challenging the Guru’s decision. They are doing so under the garb of Sharda (faith), which is in fact Anni Sharda (blind faith). They claim to do so out of respect for the Guru. I say claim, because they do not respect the Guru sufficiently enough to accept the Guru’s Hukam.

Before I get to the "No", I want to clarify another matter. Just as Guru-authority was passed from Nanak I - X, in 1699 CE Guru Gobind Singh (Nanak X) passed Guru-authority to the Guru Khalsa Panth, when after administering the Khande-ki-Pahul to the Panj Piare he asked them to initiate him into the Panth Khalsa. At that moment, the Guru-authority was passed onto the Guru Khalsa Panth. Hence, by the reasoning presented above, the supporters of the so-called Dasam Granth may not be directly opposing the Guru.


*No:* Since, in part, the status of Gurbani or Shabad Guru can be conferred only by the Guru-authority, the Guru Khalsa Panth does presumably have the authority to confer the status of Gurbani or Shabad Guru. This is where some complexity arises.

The Guru Khalsa Panth, drafted a widely circulated document, the final draft of which, has henceforth been accepted as the “Sikh Rehit Mariada” and published by several organizations, including the SGPC’s Dharam Parchar Committee. In it are some Banis which are included in the Nitnem – Jaap, Sawaiye, and a carefully chosen portion of Chaupai. No other portion of the writings within the so-called Dasam Granth has been included in the Panthic Rehit, with the exception of portions in the beginning of the formal Ardas and the previously mentioned Bani as a part of Amrit Sanskar, or during administration of the Khande-ki-Pahul (initiation into the Khalsa collective).

The folks, whom I shall refer to as the ominous “they” going forward, who are now forwarding the legitimacy of the so-called Dasam Granth and some of whom are displaying it in parallel with SGGS are also generally opposed to the Panthic Rehit Mariada. They have two problems and neither of these problems is insubstantial.

If they say they call the writings within the so-called Dasam Granth "Gurbani" because they claim it is, in part or wholly, Guru Gobind Singh’s, then they dismiss the Guru’s own decision and Hukam that only that which is within SGGS is sanctioned by the Guru-authority as Shabad Guru or Gurbani. These people become _Guru-dokhi_ (Detractors of the Guru)!

The other issue is that the Guru Khalsa Panth can and has already made decisions as the Guru-authority. But by disavowing or working actively to undermine the credibility and authority of the Guru Khalsa Panth, they (the blind supporters of the so-called Dasam Granth) become _Panth-dokhi_ (Detractors of the Panth)!


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## spnadmin (Dec 14, 2009)

Khalsa ji

This is good thinking from where I stand. Wish that I were as  articulate as you. :yes:


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## jasi (Dec 19, 2009)

Wahe GuruJI Khalsa ,Wahe Guru Ji ki Fateh.

I whole heartedly agreed with your writing about our Guru which is Guru Granth Sahib ji. 

Khalsa is a completely different entity created by Guru gobindh singh Ji  as you a have written some verses delivered by Guru Gobind Singh Ji about khalsa and their disciplined life.That was then and forever given directions that who ever will follows the "Rahet":hmm: ,will find Guru Gobind Singh 's existences among them


So our real Guru is Guru Granth Sahib and all our answers to our questions are there written in Shabads.

Also there are lot more to be discussed on this web site about our divided faith and unity by epidemic disease of CAST SYSTEM. No one like to talk about it.This suppose to be number one to correct deep rooted understanding through religious forums as not to believe in any cast system since the foundations of eradicating the cast system were laid down by Guru Nanak Dev JI

That is why we have not advanced our selves to share vast knowledge of Shri Guru Granth sahib ji with other  parts of the world. 

We converted into same situations as it existed before Guru Nanak Dev Ji came into this world to dis mental all racism on the basis of one's birth or colors,cast,genders.

How  you could we call ourselves  Sikh without practicing the fundamental plate form on which we were created as a Sikhs by Gur Nanak Dev Ji.

Let us PAUSE and see our  face in the mirror. you will find all the answers.
and you will stop pin- picking others things to alter our basic practices of Sikhism and our Guru's and traditions.

You are not even Guru ka Sikh and searching other topics out of one 's ignorance and instead of realizing your own practical life as a Sikh.. All the shabada in Guru Granth sahib ji are our guidance that is why IT is our living Guru.

Jaspi


.




Saint Soldier said:


> Sat shri akal,
> what i think is that Shri Guru Granth Sahib and Panth Khalsa is collectively the present sikh Guru :yes:. After the line of corporeal gurus was brought to an end by Guru Gobind Singh, the Khalsa Panth was installed its own leader under the abiding guidance of Guru Granth Sahib and guru ji himself was a member of khalsa panth.:yes: This may be cleared by the following lines by Guru gobind singh ji :yes: --
> The Khalsa is my own special form
> Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
> ...


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## vsgrewal48895 (Dec 19, 2009)

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji,

I agree with your point of view. One needs a Guru to grow spiritually and AGGS is the only one; where as Khalsa which have been discussed before and the discussion can be found in the archives of the forum is to institutionalize and control the Sikhs. Spirituality and politics have to be separated to grow in spirituality which Khalsa does not want to do IMHO.

Finally the question comes; Do we need the Guru for spiritual progress or to control others?

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Dec 22, 2009)

Miri - Piri is a Gurmat concept. I am not saying it is restricted to Sikhs. However, it is ingrained in our history.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Dec 22, 2009)

It may be historical fact but in reality is the cause of all the problems faced by Sikhs in politics and Gurudwaras IMHO. Personally my interest is only spiritual in Sikh Faith.
We can agree to disagree and I am not forcing any one to follow my concept.
Respectfully Submitted.
Virinder


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## Bmandur (Dec 22, 2009)

Our Present Guru Is "*Guru Granth Sahib ji"* Only

Gurfateh Parwaan ji


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## vsgrewal48895 (Dec 23, 2009)

I agree with you Bmandur Ji.

Virinder


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## Harry Haller (Feb 7, 2014)

why taint the pure with the unpure


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 7, 2014)

THE GURU GRANTH AND GURU KHALSA PANTH ARE AS TRUE AS GURU NANAK JI-GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....ONE IS THE SPIRIT..THE OTHER IS THE BODY REQUIRED TO CARRY OUT WHAT THE SPIRIT NEEDS TO BE DONE....

THE SHABAD NEEDED THE  10 HUMAN BODIES FROM 1469-1708...THE SHABAD GURU STILL NEEDS THE SAME HUMAN BODIES...NOW CALLED THE KHALSA PANTH...

SIMPLE AND PURE LOGIC. NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT.

GURU GOBIND SINGH JI BOWED HIS HEAD BEFORE THE PUNJ AT VASAKHI 1699 LONG BEFORE HE BOWED TO THE SGGS IN 1708....GURU GOBIND SINGH JI THEN TESTED THE KHALSA MANY TIMES...BEFORE FINALLY LEAVING HIS OWN BODY AND PUTTING THE KHALSA UNDER THE SHABAD GURU SGGS IN 1708.

HOWEVER many of us who just CANNOT keep the KESH (primarily ) then seek to justify our own SHORTCOMINGS about the Khalsa being not necessary, not needed, etc etc..and seek to escape the DISCIPLINE already enforced by the 10 GURUS...way way before the SGGS was bowed to....

Many who dont want to keep kesh and wear dastaar..however do wear the KARRA very proudly..in case they are mistaken for not "sikh " ??? ( Kacherra/kangha and kirpan dont bother them )....BUT the KARRA is never forgotten...hypocracy of the highest order.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 7, 2014)

> THE OTHER IS THE BODY REQUIRED TO CARRY OUT WHAT THE SPIRIT NEEDS TO BE DONE....



and to see that happen is truly beautiful, which of the current bodies within Sikhism do you think best portrays that?


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## Harry Haller (Feb 7, 2014)

Ishna said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but, just quietly, I find it curious that the present Guru of the Sikhs isn't the same one as Guru Nanak Sahib Ji's Guru.  I also find it curious that Gurbani talks about the Guru more than it talks about itself.
> 
> I may be at risk of ejecting myself from the community when I say Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji seems more like a window through which to see The Guru, rather than being The Guru itself.  But I might just be being far too pedantic for my own good.


as john lennon once said, whatever gets you through the night

we all use imagery and metaphors, I think its an individual thing


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 8, 2014)

My favourites on SPN...Narayanjyot Kaur Ji, , Spnadmin Ji, , Ishna Ji and HarryHaller ji..oh what would i do without them...these are the ones that actually help me write what i finally pen down...so whos mind reading who..i have no idea...BUT Together as a Team..we are one in a million...and I love my Team....


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> and to see that happen is truly beautiful, which of the current bodies within Sikhism do you think best portrays that?




The "PANJ" is the one and only body required or necessary as demonstrated in 1699. The various "bodies" that claim to be "SIKHISM" are all off the mark..and these include the SGPC...the Takhats...the Deras..the sampardayas...the taksaals...etc etc..ALL are SELF CENTERED..self glorifying..and exist only for SELF preservation.


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## Sherdil (Feb 9, 2014)

No one has mentioned Miri and Piri? 

Miri = Temporal Authority = Akal Takht (Khalsa Panth)

Piri = Spiritual Authority = Guru Granth Sahib 

The two are intertwined, but separate at the same time. Sort of like ying and yang. 

Temporal Authority pertains to matters of governance (maryada, politics, etc.)

Spiritual Authority pertains to crossing this "world ocean" as Gurbani puts it. GGS is your guide in this matter. 

This is self-evident in the architecture of Harmandir sahib. The Golden Temple floats like a pure lotus flower in the sorovar. The Akal Takht juxtaposes it, connected to the rest of the world. Ying and Yang.


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