# A Wolf's View Of Sikhism



## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2011)

I lost my innocence at 13. Up until that age, I had a normal sikh upbringing, but at 13 something woke up in me that had been slowly increasing in power and direction. 

I discovered what most young boys discover around that age and to cut a long story short, a side of me was born that has dominated my life ever since. This other harry, whom I have always called wolf, is not like me. He is an embodiment of all five thieves, led chiefly by lust. For years the wolf and harry have had a love/hate relationship and fought constant battles, even when harry eventually labelled himself a non sikh, although he respected the fine sikh philosophies without even knowing it. Very rarely do man and wolf sit down together and try and help each other in some sort of peace. 

So now Harry has again found his faith, he labels himself a sikh, he underdstands fully the concept of sikhism, and it is a path that he is now set on completing. But it isnt that easy, if Harry were honest, the thought of being without me fills him with dread, I give Harry a reason for living, excitement, I introduce that feeling in his stomach, I make him feel more alive than he has felt on his own. 

Of course I am a coward, when there have been times I have goaded Harry towards self destruction, and Harry has fallen, and fallen hard, I retreat to a small cave in his mind, where I hide out, till things are bearable again. I do not mind the fun and frolics, but I am not taking responsibility , thats Harrys job. 

Harry worships his inner god, the voice of truth and goodness. Although I respect this god, it does not have enough facets for me, I worship Abbraxus, some believe him to be a satanic god, he is not, he is the god of the manmukh, it is his divine order that ALL human desires be fulfilled, every fetish, every food, drink, be comsumed to feed the unholy fires that burn constantly, but, even I accept that this path has no end, it is timeless, it is now. A cycle develops, of pleasure, memory and then desire, but each time you go round, the pleasure gets less, the memory becomes distorted, and the desire wanes, you have to keep adding more and more ingredients to the pot to not only sustain the pleasures but attempt to increase them. 

And that is the life of wolf, it is quite pointless, it has no beginning and no end, it is purely for the moment. At present I am a lame wolf. For a long time I have had to live out my fantasies in Harrys mind, and even those fantasies where sex is involved, must only feature my wife, and that is what I have now, those are the confines of my existence.  I used to be king of all my domain, a roaring wolf who could roam the midnight air,searching for excitement, adventure, a she wolf, a rabbit whose throat I could rip, eventually I would return home, where I lived alone, bloodied and satisfied, Harry was then a sardar, and he felt that was quite enough to satisfy any conscience, so all in all, we all had a great life. 

Now Harry is intent on finding the lost paths to the spirit, and eventually to god. He dreams of killing me, of destroying me, but he knows he cannot. All he can do is make his peace with me. Harry is a good man, but his understanding and spirituality are his undoing, without me, he would have nothing, only his love of spirit. Thankfully, its possible we could live side by side in sikhi. I will make a deal with Harry, one day, yes I will be gone, I accept that, I always thought Harry would go before me, and I could spend my twilight years dying as a wolf should. But this exposure to new theories and teachings means although I do not agree with his path, I have to accept that it is the path to enlightenment, and through this path I will get weaker and weaker until Harry is strong enough through the spirit of Nanak not to kill me, but to let me give way to understanding and the union between man, spirit and god. 

Till then, I agree to stop mocking Harry in his attempt to find god, I will stop introducing anger into him when he feels people are using him, Harry has to learn to give freely, and take up the slack from within, using the power of the spirit and of god to replenish his emptyness, but by the same token, Harry must learn to stop being so holier than thou with respect to my desires and my wishes, he needs to stop tarring everything with the same brush, Harry needs to understand that there is scope in sikhi for wolfish activities, but firstly, in moderation, and secondly never to the point where these activities are placed higher than the spirit, and thirdly within pre set limits

In years gone by, it was probably easier, the saint reflected Harry, and the soldier reflected me, it was a union made by god, to balance everything out. 

I exist not only to show Harry the wonders of creation, but to protect him. But it will be his union with god, not mine in which Harry will live eternally, I will only ever be there for the moment

thank you for reading


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2011)

I agree you should not mock harry. There is another side to being a wolf, which is perhaps now raising its hand/paw to be recognized. The communal side. The side that binds with the other wolves. The side that bays together in the night creating a sense of safety for each and every one. The side that kindles loyalty. If the wolf that is lustful is chased away, some good things may be banished with it. So perhaps your soul is calling you to think of how all of the qualities that might be banished or ignored can instead be nourished, so much so that lust can hardly make  a peep. Maybe it is time for safety in sangat, the kind of sangat where all the parts of harry's inner life can be tied together, and not one part is made into an angry orphan, and instead of feeding anger, nourishes each one.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2011)

As a wolf, I have been pared down hugely to accommodate Harry's wishes, actually not for Harry, but for Harry's wife. She made it clear from the first meeting that she would love me forever, and be by my side with one provision. I was not to entertain thoughts or desires for any other women, and I have respected that.Now the question is, if Harry is achieve the closeness he desires so much with his creator, is my lust for his wife going to inhibit him......


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 9, 2011)

I commend your honest appraisal ,there is only one self ,you maybe transferring your lower self to the symbolic wolf .

Cultivate your higher self 

God Bless

*The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the vessel, filled with the wine of sexual desire; the mind is the drunkard. *


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 9, 2011)

Lust could probably be defined by quantum physics and kitchen economics. It is like burning a matchstick. If you keep on placing more matchsticks at the end of previous one, the flame will keep on burning. Otherwise it will stay hidden as a matchstick in the box.


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## Ishna (Jun 10, 2011)

I suppose you need to analyze what lust is and how it expresses itself negatively.  If couples had no desire for each other we would cease to reproduce.  Sexual intimacy can also be bonding between husband and wife.  Is this sexual relationship different to "lust"?

Sikhi doesn't advocate celibacy, so you need to figure out what exactly lust is and how it is different from healthy sexual feelings for your wife.


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2011)

ishna ji

You make several good points. Physical lust wanes with age.  Does the loss of lust in older age mean you have conquered it? Lust can also take on nonphysical forms. What kind of lust are we talking about? How honest are people actually when they think about it in their own lives?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 10, 2011)

Spnadminji, 

I do not think you should conquer lust, I think you need to make your peace with it. For instance if you really enjoy aloo pronta, to the point where your driving home, and all you can think of is aloo pronta, that surely could be lust. Is it possible some people lust after a complete relationship with the creator. Somehow that does not sound right, to use the word 'lust' in the same sentence as the creator seems wrong. Although I do not think it is wrong for a man to lust after his wife, I get slightly uncomfortable when I do, I feel my intentions are not fully loving and pure.Ishna talks of sexual desire, and that is a very honest statement, but we all know that the best sex is one of love, intimate respect and closeness, anything other than that tends to be for the self, so its possible I have answered my own question,. Lust is for the self, whereas love is shared. I suppose if your driving home thinking of aloo pronta and sharing it with your wife, that is different to a sole aloo pronta eating session, which is more likely lust. 

We are never going to be as pure as the Guru's were, is there a point to taking a mental shoe and stamping out everything in our heads that seems contrary to teachings, surely if everything is god given, then these thoughts are too, there must be reason for them other than trying to entrap us or trying to make us better people by locking them away. If its acceptable to lust after your wife, or lust after food, or knowledge, or even life provided it is carried out in a manner that is not destructive. I do not feel there is anything wrong in someone having a lust for knowledge, if the intention is to use that knowledge for the good, how can there be anything wrong in having a lust for life, provided that life is led within the confines of sikhi. 

I have no doubt that the five thieves are there and waiting for us all, but a bit like an alcoholic that refuses to go to AA, I would rather understand and moderate them, than be scared of them, or in constant battle. Is an alcoholic really cured because he has no access to drink anymore, or is he cured when he can take a sip of beer, and then actually say 'uhm you know what, this isnt doing anything for me, i can take or leave this'

True understanding comes with discipline and moderation, abstinence shows rigidity and a lack of understanding. Now for every sikh who is reading this and thinking, I abstain, but I still think, well then you may have achieved nothing. Maybe the true sikh is the one whose thoughts and actions are mirrored and is able to enjoy the full benefits of this world but within the framework of sikhi. 

To that end, I propose that every one of the five thieves must have peace made with it, and an understanding reached, to save yourself from a lifetime of fighting and mutual conquering


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## Ishna (Jun 10, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I do not think you should conquer lust, I think you need to make your peace with it. For instance if you really enjoy aloo pronta, to the point where your driving home, and all you can think of is aloo pronta, that surely could be lust. Is it possible some people lust after a complete relationship with the creator. Somehow that does not sound right, to use the word 'lust' in the same sentence as the creator seems wrong.



This might just be a technicality, but isn't lust the _negative_ expression of desire?  Like, you can want aloo pronta, that's OK, but there comes a point where you realise that your desire for aloo pronta goes beyond a desire and becomes lust.

And I think lusting after a relationship with the creator is wrong, like you said, it doesn't sound right in the same sentence.  For a couple of reasons 1) Sikhi balances the spiritual and the mundane, so to go only for the spiritual is not Sikhi, and if you lust after a relationship with the creator you should be a yogi or someone locking away to fulfil that desire.  2) Waheguru controls the relationship, not you, so your lust will always be unrequited.  I think so, anyway.




harry haller said:


> Although I do not think it is wrong for a man to lust after his wife, I get slightly uncomfortable when I do, I feel my intentions are not fully loving and pure.Ishna talks of sexual desire, and that is a very honest statement, but we all know that the best sex is one of love, intimate respect and closeness, anything other than that tends to be for the self, so its possible I have answered my own question,. Lust is for the self, whereas love is shared. I suppose if your driving home thinking of aloo pronta and sharing it with your wife, that is different to a sole aloo pronta eating session, which is more likely lust.



Very thoughtful paragraph.  My selfish youth is having trouble processing it, hehe.  I think greed and lust are overlapping here.  If you want the aloo pronta all for yourself, you're being greedy, not lustful, I think.  You can lust after the experience of sharing aloo pronta with your wife.  My understanding is that lust is an excessive and all-consuming craving for something.  It is intense and you can't get rid of it from your mind.  It tenses your body, you NEED to procure the object of your lust.  Is that lust in your definition?

Example:  I currently lust for the Internet.  I wake up in the morning and kick myself for getting more excited about getting up and checking various forums than I do about getting up and reading Gurbani.  I get edgy and focused that I must go on the Internet, first thing I do.  I get annoyed when something prevents me from checking.  That is negative.   If you feel that way about your wife, then you might have a problem with lust!

Without getting too personal for you, Harry ji, and trying not to cheapen this thread, I ask this as a general question of the sangat: if you have "dirty thoughts", does that constitute lust?  Do occasional "dirty thoughts" about your wedded partner constitute lust?  I'm thinking not, or else how would romantic intimacy ever get off the ground?  If you think of them excessively, and get angry when your partner is not obliging, then you have problem with lust, I think.



harry haller said:


> We are never going to be as pure as the Guru's were, is there a point to taking a mental shoe and stamping out everything in our heads that seems contrary to teachings, surely if everything is god given, then these thoughts are too, there must be reason for them other than trying to entrap us or trying to make us better people by locking them away.



I believe the 5 evils were very important to us as primitives many thousands of years ago.  You would LUST after someone (*cue David Attenborough voice* "Here we see the male of the human species in pursuit of a female" hehe) for the purpose of reproduction.  You would be GREEDY to keep all the food for yourself or your group to ensure your own survivial.  You would become EGOTISTICAL to promote yourself and intimidate others for your survival and the survival of your genetic line.  You become ATTACHED to things because without your cave or tree or whatever you are left to the elements and have to find somewhere else to go, or without your Big Stick you are no longer ruler of your group.  You become ANGRY to protect what you have or else you are destroyed by maurauding tribes.

And we carry these primitive motivators around with us in the present day, and they can cloud our judgement towards making decisions within the Sikh framework you mentioned.




harry haller said:


> If its acceptable to lust after your wife, or lust after food, or knowledge, or even life provided it is carried out in a manner that is not destructive. I do not feel there is anything wrong in someone having a lust for knowledge, if the intention is to use that knowledge for the good, how can there be anything wrong in having a lust for life, provided that life is led within the confines of sikhi.



I'm not sure that what you're describing fits with the definition of lust.  It may be used in common language to express someone's zest or passion for something, but is that necessarily lust?



harry haller said:


> True understanding comes with discipline and moderation, abstinence shows rigidity and a lack of understanding. Now for every sikh who is reading this and thinking, I abstain, but I still think, well then you may have achieved nothing. Maybe the true sikh is the one whose thoughts and actions are mirrored and is able to enjoy the full benefits of this world but within the framework of sikhi.
> 
> To that end, I propose that every one of the five thieves must have peace made with it, and an understanding reached, to save yourself from a lifetime of fighting and mutual conquering



I agree, nicely said.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 11, 2011)

Making peace between and with the 5 Veils is only the first step. Greed (Lobh), Lust (Kaam), Attachment (Moh), Pride (Ahankar), Anger (krodh), which are the manifestations of Ego (emphasizing the sense of self as distinct from everything else).

It seems to me that the ultimate goal is to eventually burn them with the Fire of Naam (or even with the fire of Yoga, Vipassana, etc etc whichever way you prefer). 

I have not seen a sentence in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which says these should be kept for any purpose. Quite the opposite, they must be dissolved, disintegrated. I agree with it, when it says that the Hot fire of ego must be extinguished. And that's because in our society it serves no purpose. It harms us instead. But let me first mention how the ego has been useful to us so far. 

We humans homo homo sapien cro magnon are here because of it. Our ancestors, because of their ego killed off the other 6 human species and have driven other 100s of species to extinction. We dominate the planet today.

Unfortunately there is now no more room to fill, and we encounter each other, strangers, enemies, friends, basically random people, every day of our life. In there 100s! Our old ways of living isolated in tribes of 50 are OVER.

strangers, enemies, friends - the Ego does this labelling. The ego sees and is overly attached with this concept that there is a friend, an enemy and stranger. Those without ego realize that there is no such thing, what they see is much deeper than individuals with ego. This is not to say that they cannot distinguish between them. The ego is still there but has been demoted. The consciousness of the individual, the God inside, is promoted and emphasized. (it won't be long until the individual eventually loses the ego and dies however, back to the point)

If you are stuck in the negative, you are stuck in the positive. That's OK though. Nothing wrong with that BUT it's being emphasized beyond a certain point. What needs to be emphasized is the experience there is no negative or positive, there is just one's perception. What needs to be emphasized is full awareness of what *is*, pure consciousness needs to arise, without thought.(let me come back to why no thoughts can be there)

Look at the clouds, stare at them and their infinite shapes, look at the trees the way they  dance with the wind, softly, majestic... an experience that can only be  experienced. What I have described cannot encapsulate that perception! And what a perception! Rich! complex! infinite... it's beauty is not available to thoughts... Thoughts tell you "it sucks", "bull-waste", "nothing there dude", "booooring". But put consciousness to everyday objects and gain full access to perception. It offers, fulfillment without material, happiness without external input, and a rich experience. Inner peace is obtained. Emphasize such a perception more. Demphasize ego and thoughts. Thoughts are useful for doing math and science and for planning. Great, balance those with moments with moments without thought. The compulsion to think is a compulsion indeed. But it can stop. This obsession with thought is not necessary. In fact, a hindrance to the infinite perception.

The ego feeds off of struggle. The more you struggle the more it bubbles and boils and expands. The thicker the veils become! Struggle against another person, during debates, during conversations, during meetings. Struggle against oneself, one's self-concept, even one's ego, even on'e own Veils, struggle against some aspect of ego. Struggle between harry and the wolf. Struggle with the story of harry and the big bad wolf (because it is really only a story). Struggle is not necessary, it's a hindrance to inner peace. Though struggle could get one to a place where one realizes it's not necessary. 

One is neither harry nor the wolf. One is .. well ONE. One is the witness to the story. One is the God which makes the perception of such a story and all our perceptions possible.

When there is perception... perception again being full awareness of something.. in that moment, there is no ego. Rejoice this moment with your perception or shall I say THE perception, you are not an individual in this perception but rather part of the perception... this is the experience of Oneness and it is readily available to you now. Live in it. Enjoy it and be at peace. Let the ego be. Once the struggle stops, the ego will die with time. It is only there because of the struggle.

The fire of Naam (and other paths) is a COLD fire. It burns but it cools you down as it burns. What does it burn? The five veils. It burns one's desires and wants, which 95% of the time are attachments to something in the future. It burns them right off one's perception. So that one's perception is a perception with *full awareness*, *pure consciousness*, *GOD consciousness*, *immersed in God*, etc.  Inner peace is obtained through this fire. Letting the consciousness becoming immersed  in the perception of everything there is (everything there is = God). Let the consciousness come out of thoughts in  which Ego is present, and touch the face of spirit/life/God/perception itself.

I am using Perception, God, Pure Consciousness, Inner peace etc as if they are the same word. Though they look different, in reality, they are the same. That is because the actual "thing" can only be witnessed. You have to be there to experience it.

"The Tao that can be named (described/grasped/understood) is not the real Tao."

Hope that above hints help. If you find yourself struggling with them, just move on. 

Peace.

 ...because it's worth it.


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## Ishna (Jun 11, 2011)

Wow.  I'm going to read that a hundred times.  Thank you Bhagat ji.  kaurhug


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## Harry Haller (Jun 11, 2011)

Ishnaji 

lust is defined as a passionate or overmastering desire or craving, to that end everything you have said in your post is quite correct, that also answers the question, is it ok to lust after your wife, no, its ok to desire her,

Bhagatsinghji, 

that was a most beautiful post, and again, everything you have mentioned is also quite correct and unworthy of any argument. However, I feel that not everyone is capable of reaching that point, or may not even want to. While I have a family, a business, parents, a stepson, pets, problems tax etc, it is not so easy to see everything in the poetic way you have described,. yes, ultimately, I would be deluding myself if I though that the five thieves were not meant to be burnt away like a cancer, but living in the real world, as well as the spirit world means some compromise must take place. 

The compromise dies when we entrust ourselves fully to god, I am not in a position to do that at this stage in my life yet, although the compromises wane as time goes on., 20 years ago, I lived a life of women, intoxicants, gambling and corruption. That was the wolf then, now he is reduced to putting up his paw and politely asking if its ok that his only vice now is the lust for his wife. Because of the way I have lived my life, casino's bore me, other women bore me, drink to excess bores me, and that is the state of conquering I wish to have, to walk into a casino and not walk out of fear or guilt, but boredom. 

Some people learn these lessons easier than others, my wolf has bankrupted me, lost me my big house and shiny BMW, my rich friends, my corrupt business colleagues, my blonde blue eyed american fiance, he has had me thrown in the cells many many times, and a nice spell the local prison, he has given me 3 heart attacks, and the honour of being one of the youngest men to undergo quad bypass heart surgery in my city!

It sounds like a lot of pain, it was not actually, each moment was a defining moment, ahhhh thats why you shouldnt gamble, ahhhhh thats why you shouldnt get in your car and drive down the M11 at 125mph when you have just been banned by a court, and, if you ever feel that all the people round you are false, thats because they probably are, if you drive a car for the effect it has on other people, then you have self confidence problems, if you pursue the ideal of beauty without regard to the insides, you are more lemming than man. 

Ah so many memories, but one day Bhagatsinghji, I will not only be able to understand that which you have written, I will live it


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 11, 2011)

Yes


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## kds1980 (Jun 11, 2011)

> We humans homo homo sapien cro magnon are here because of it. Our ancestors, because of their ego killed off the other 6 human species and have driven other 100s of species to extinction. We dominate the planet today.



Quite interesting I heard the other Human species got extinct but cro magnon was directly responsible ,yet to find answer.Even if we killed them it is not because of ego it is because No species can share precious resources of Earth with others O/W we will be short of resources.All carnivore species hate each other and kill each other just to eliminate competetion  so I guess earlier Humans did the same O/W who knows neanderthal would had make us extinct


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 11, 2011)

Yes you are right it's much more complex than what I say now, have said or could ever know.

I am looking at ego retrospectively. Clearly we do have an ego, so it must have been useful for our ancestors, in their environment. Now ego would be involved in every aspect of their behaviour: mating and all the rituals involved, hunting, gathering, social bonds, protecting food and loved ones, fighting off other tribes, fighting for dominance/control within the tribe, etc. And it's precisely because of these behaviours and intelligence that our lineage continued. 
In a nutshell, resources are always limited so securing them for yourself and loved ones, and not "the other", would be key to our evolution. Is that the key to our evolution now? Looks to me like this behaviour is going to wipe us out.


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## Ishna (Jun 12, 2011)

The last documentary I saw on the evolution of humans postulated that our species ability to socially interact with each other is what helped us survive.

A tribe of our competitors would meet the neighbouring tribe and try to defeat them.  Our dudes would meet the neighbouring tribe and trade with them.  The evidence for this was art of animals from a particular area being found in other areas where those animals didn't live.

I'm sure there's much more too it, but the essential aspect was the development of communication and social interaction is what helped us succeed.


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 12, 2011)

Bhagat ji,


I put this forward for your consideration.




BhagatSingh said:


> Yes you are right it's much more complex than what I say now, have said or could ever know.
> 
> I am looking at ego retrospectively. Clearly we do have an ego, so it must have been useful for our ancestors, in their environment. Now ego would be involved in every aspect of their behaviour: mating and all the rituals involved, hunting, gathering, social bonds, protecting food and loved ones, fighting off other tribes, fighting for dominance/control within the tribe, etc. And it's precisely because of these behaviours and intelligence that our lineage continued.
> In a nutshell, resources are always limited so securing them for yourself and loved ones, and not "the other", would be key to our evolution. Is that the key to our evolution now? Looks to me like this behaviour is going to wipe us out.



First, why the need to identify with those who lived a long time ago? Why say that you or I are the product of a chain of events in the past involving deeds and actions performed by other people? 

â€œEach person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge; he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad.â€ â€“ The Buddha

Evolution may be about survival of the fittest and human beings as a race, is the result of this particular mechanism. However this only says that at one point there were no beings here on earth born as a result of good deeds in the past, but later on, when the environment was such that human beings came into existence and could thrive, there were. Before that, good karma of the kind resulted in birth on other planets in other star systems. And if human beings could not survive here, karma of the kind would bear fruit as rebirth somewhere else and you won't be called Bhagat Singh, weâ€™d not be communicating as we are doing now, and there won't be a movie called Avatar for anyone of us to watch. ;-) 

All beings, then or now, are heir to their own actions and not that of anyone else. Those who killed for survival will have to reap the fruit of that particular deed. Your own birth in this life was a result of some good deed in past lives, and next life it could be that you are born a {censored}roach and end up squashed by your own kith and kin, who knows?! 

Why think that you inherit anything other than that which is the result of your own actions? If you think along the lines that you and I would not be here had prehistoric man not killed and survived, then those deeds will be made to appear justified. But not only this, you'd have created a stage whereby justification is made for some evil action that you yourself perform in the name of survival. Although it is true that â€œsurvivalâ€ depends on the greater capacity to greed and aversion, why make this the deciding factor as to what is right and what is wrong action. Is this not in fact making survival a goal when "getting out of the cycle of existence" is what the aim should be?

Here is something else that the Buddha said:

â€œEven if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handed saw, he among you who let his heart get angered at that would not be doing my bidding."

There is no expectation of course, that anyone of us has this much loving kindness or wisdom. But should we not acknowledge the wrong deed and own up to it at least in principle? If those in the past did not have the capacity to discriminate between good and evil, this does not mean that one of us come out and make their evil deed appear as good? Do we do this because somehow we feel that we are indebted to them? If so, this would be wrong perception, wrong thinking and wrong understanding, which can lead to many problems. And unless we are learning and teaching evolutionary science, it is quite unnecessary to think about evolution at all isn't it?


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## kds1980 (Jun 12, 2011)

> In a nutshell, resources are always limited so securing them for yourself and loved ones, and not "the other", would be key to our evolution. Is that the key to our evolution now? Looks to me like this behaviour is going to wipe us out.



Well I can't say it is key for evolution but it is certainly key for hi fi lifestyle which western countries are addicted to.Is it any wonder that middle east is the main attraction in the entire world

As far wiping us out i don't think this behaviour is going to wipe us.A very large percentage of world is still living on few resources  so as the resources will decline it will hurt more to rich than the poor as they will face more hardships which they are not used to.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 12, 2011)

e.g. War, Nuclear warfare, WW3, over resources from various parts of the world. 
Our technology, which is the result of and is driven by that mentality, amplifying our tribal ways, has the power to wipe us out.

It remains a likely event unless we change... no...  unless *I* change.


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## kds1980 (Jun 12, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> e.g. War, Nuclear warfare, WW3, over resources from various parts of the world.
> Our technology, which is the result of and is driven by that mentality, amplifying our tribal ways, has the power to wipe us out.
> 
> It remains a likely event unless we change... no...  unless *I* change.



Well I think 1950 to 1991 were the most dangerous days for west and soviet as both USA and Soviet were deadly enemies of each other and nuclear war could had been triggered.but everything ended peacefully .I am sure at that time so many people could had predicted that SAoviet and USA may end up destroying Each other

If anybody has to concern about Nuclear war then it is me and people living in North India as we are Living with world's most stupid nuclear country Pakistan ,O/W I don't think there is any danger of any Nuclear war in anywhere in world in near future


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 12, 2011)

With regards to natural selection,certain traits like ego may or may not be useful in so far as to ensure the survival of your ancestors DNA..

What Sikhism deals with are matters of the Soul.Not the survival of a certain species even Nuclear War cannot destroy what you really are! 
Genes maybe selfish in order to ensure there own survival but that does not mean we should be selfish.We should not worry about why we are affected by the five, just watch out for them now,These maybe the manifestation of our lower self at it were and the virtues being our higher self.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 12, 2011)

Sure. I have no problem with that.


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## Ishna (Jun 12, 2011)

Personally I enjoy looking at the history of evolution.  I think it's interesting and can help form a perspective on the current human condition.  Obviously that's not the be-all and end-all, but I see a balance of the physical/mundane and the spiritual in Sikhi.

So I see evolution as being relevant to relating to the "wolf within".  I also think what our primitive ancestors did in the past to survive was totally justified in the situation.  It was hukam, in my opinion.

I heard an interesting comment at my Gurdwara a couple of weeks ago when I was evesdropping on a Gurbani class, and it really got me thinking.  I had previously been of the impression that the aim of the game was to 'become enlightened' or 'break the cycle and merge with Waheguru'.  But the statement made during the class was that the aim of the game is to 'become Waheguru's slave'.  Totally redirected my perspective - and it sounds so simple when put like that!

As humans we can't claw out of any cycle, merge with any creative source, no matter how hard we try.  It's up to Waheguru's grace to liberate us.  And we don't become attractive for that grace without surrendering and giving ourselves over to the hukam.  So really, everything is superflous to existence except realising our place, listening for the hukam/shabad and singing along in tune.

Don't ask me how to do that, exactly.  All I know is what Gurbani tells me, and to contradict my own earlier post, part of that would be to eliminate the 5 vices.  Maybe I haven't read enough Gurbani to have a well-rounded knowledge of them yet.  But so far, I know that encouraging the 5 virtues should go a long way to helping.

And if you compare the virtues to the vices, do they cancel each other out?

*Vice *
Kaam (lust)                      
Krodh (anger)                   
Lobh (greed)                     
Moh (attachment)             
Ahankar (pride)                 

*Virtue*
Sat (truth)
Santokh (contentment)
Daya (compassion)
Nimrata (humility)
Pyare (love)

Oohh, it feels like one of those 'draw a line between the corresponding attributes' games you do in school.

I can see that Santokh and Moh go together, Krodh and Daya, Lobh and Nimrata, Sat and Ahankar... which funnily enough puts Pyare and Kaam together which is what Harry ji said on page 1!!!  That's funny!

Any agreement here on combating the animal self with virtues or should I send myself off to the looney bin?  :grinningkudi:


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 12, 2011)

Ishna ji, life is like a Bollywood movie. If you try and work it out mentally, you will go insane. Rather just sit back and watch. 

You see if it was possible to lay it all out and explain it to everyone, then it would have been done so already. I mean all these religions, prophets, gurus, tried to do it while at the same time saying they can't do it! 

Clearly the explanations cannot capture that eternal essence.

PS I think the first virtue, Truth, cancels out all the vices.


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 13, 2011)

Ishna ji once one is created in creation, the creator expects us to live to the best with what we can do and does not set any rules per say.  Survival to the extreme is part of this scheme.  I do not believe one can exclude the following if these are needed for survival in any degree,


Kaam (lust)
Krodh (anger)
 Lobh (greed)
 Moh (attachment)
 Ahankar (pride)
 I believe almost all of these to some extent are part of the survival tool kit so not necessarily bad.  I know many put lot of emphasis on eradication of such but for me the right balance with personal needs is the best approach.

I like Bhagat Singh ji's analogy of life as a movie a lot!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 13, 2011)

Bhagat ji,



BhagatSingh said:


> Ishna ji, life is like a Bollywood movie. If you try and work it out mentally, you will go insane. Rather just sit back and watch.



Indeed this is how our normal mode of observation, i.e. like watching a movie. We are lost in the ocean of concepts, reacting one moment with greed, another with aversion and another with conceit but no understanding at all as to what is really taking place or what the reality of the moment is. So how is this better than â€œtrying and work it out mentallyâ€?


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 13, 2011)

Yes. The normal mode of observation, as you describe it, is working everything out mentally. So not doing that, sitting back and simply being aware of life, of anything that happens. And if you find yourself getting involved mentally (that's also part of life), then again sit back and be aware of yourself getting involved mentally.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 13, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Ishna ji once one is created in creation, the creator expects us to live to the best with what we can do and does not set any rules per say.  Survival to the extreme is part of this scheme.  I do not believe one can exclude the following if these are needed for survival in any degree,
> 
> 
> Kaam (lust)
> ...



Having accepted the truth as the almighty, the only way one could be a slave to this truth would be in form of sewa I would assume, but moving onto Ambarsariaji's post, I have to agree that the these are needed and peace must be made with them to use them to full potential. 

MY problem has always been that when I have been wolf, I have been complete wolf, and when man, a complete man, this has caused many many problems in my life to the point where my wife has locked up all my herman hesse books and forbidden me from reading them. I have tried to explain that I have felt like this way before I started reading, but she feels that I am validating my life with words that are not true. IN fact her exact phrase was 'if you respect the words of truth, then you cannot respect the words of this author, as although they contain some truth, they are like a rice pudding with small pieces of glass in, unless you extract the glass, you cannot eat the pudding, so you get used to eating rice pudding with the consequences of a bleeding mouth' 

I then realised that she was correct. Harry, the wolf, abbraxus, pablo, hermine, none of these people exist, it is a fine magic theater that has led me here, but it is time to leave behind childish ways and think like an adult. Hesse led me to this point, and I thank him for that, but it is time for simplicity

On the whole, everything on the bad list will take you further away from the truth, and everything on the good list will bring you closer. We are not gods, we will have our days, but as long as you are getting closer and closer to the truth, I would say you are winning


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 13, 2011)

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji

We live life or play a role , so that would mean we are in the movie rather than watching it .And in that case mine would be a Spanish Thriller not a bollywood movie ,as I can't sing and dance and certainly can,t jump onto a horse backwards!


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 13, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> Dear Bhagat Singh
> 
> We live life or play a role , so that would mean we are in the movie rather than watching it .And in that case mine would be a Spanish Thriller not a bollywood movie ,as I can't sing and dance and certainly can,t jump onto a horse backwards!


Sinner Singh ji don't feel too too bad or be hard on yourself.  You think Sunny Deol or Dharminder can sing and dance peacesign
YouTube        - ‪Tu Kya Cheez Hai - Sunny Deol - Kashmira Shah - Champion - Bollywood Item Songs - Anu Malik‬&rlm;

YouTube        - ‪pakistan wedding the guy falls off the horse!!!!!!!!!!!!funny!!!!!!!!!!!‬&rlm;

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 13, 2011)

Thank you Ambarsaria Ji0


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 14, 2011)

Bhagat ji,



BhagatSingh said:


> > Confused: Indeed this is how our normal mode of observation, i.e. like watching a movie. We are lost in the ocean of concepts, reacting one moment with greed, another with aversion and another with conceit but no understanding at all as to what is really taking place or what the reality of the moment is. So how is this better than “trying and work it out mentally”?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. The normal mode of observation, as you describe it, is working everything out mentally. So not doing that, sitting back and simply being aware of life, of anything that happens. And if you find yourself getting involved mentally (that's also part of life), then again sit back and be aware of yourself getting involved mentally.



So you are saying that it should not be like how one normally watches a movie but a different way, perhaps with more 'detachment'?

I think we may have had this discussion before, but just to remind you about my own position in this matter, this is what I think (too much? ;-)):

Would it be fair to say that what you describe is similar to what J. Krishnamurti calls ‘choiceless awareness? If so, then according to my understanding that would still very much be in the realm of concepts perceived through ignorance at the minimum. Indeed when it has been recommended as a practice to follow, wrong understanding / view and attachment must be the main driving forces which in turn, inevitably conditions many instances of conceit as well. And all this together adds fuel to the illusion of result, and then we are trapped. Why do I say this? Because there is no “understanding” involved with regard to what is experienced through the five senses and the mind! And it is only through understanding that there is real detachment, otherwise it must be something else altogether.

It makes no difference then, if upon experience through the five senses, this is followed by an attempt to analyse the experience by way of some background knowledge or allowing the attention to simply move from one object to another without the kind of mental working out. The truth is that if wisdom did arise to understanding any one of the experience through these six doors, it would know them as conditioned and each different from the other. Also all this would be quite disconnected and not flowing and seamless. After all, seeing is not hearing and sound is not smell, and not only are they different in characteristics, but also the proximate cause, function and manifestation are very distinct.

Mental proliferation isn't really about being lost in concepts, but of being influenced by attachment, conceit or view. And these can and often arise before there is any thinking. So when someone is involved in trying hard to analyze his experience, it is not the amount of thinking which is indicative of the wrongness of the activity, but whether this is fueled by one of the three mental proliferations mentioned above. It could be that most of the time, only attachment is there. On the other hand, another person in believing wrongly that thinking is the problem and seeks to avoid the kind of activity and is attracted by the idea of ‘choiceless awareness, this person is clearly being motivated by wrong view as well. 

When such a person then follows the kind of practice he has projected as being the solution, this invariably will then also be driven by much attachment and on and off give rise to conceit. So which is in fact worse? Having the habit of analyzing one's experiences, or involved in a practice believed wrongly as being the way out because of the results that come with it? I think that the latter is worse in that while the former is open to suggestions of what in fact is the correct practice, the latter in mistaking wrong practice for right practice, has added to the difficulty for any correction taking place. 

So in a way, I think we do need to be serious and think much about these things. Besides there is no more and no less thinking between any two persons, only who thinks rightly and who wrongly. An enlightened person does not think any less than an uninstructed worldling. The difference is that in the one, wisdom arises every now and then to insight into the nature of the moment, whereas in the other, ignorance, attachment, aversion, conceit and wrong understanding arises all the time. Indeed the Buddha has been called the Great Analyzer, in light of the fact that his insight has penetrated into the workings of all mental and physical phenomena from which he then gave us all the details.

You mentioned Vipassana in another message, and the above is what Vipassana is all about. You also said that it and all the other practices that you mentioned lead to the same goal. But given what I've written, does it look like that what you believe is correct? I believe that if the Truth is known, exactly the same understanding / set of teachings will be derived from it by any two persons who have known it. The difference in the core teachings of all religions in my opinion reflects the fact that the understanding is not the same and this must therefore lead to different goals. And I don't understand why people like to entertain the notion that the so called different paths all lead to the same destination, when the individual religions themselves give out the general impression that theirs is the correct one whereas the others are not! Sounds like a romanticization and very New Agey to me….


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## Harry Haller (Jun 15, 2011)

Well, life as a man seems far different to life as a wolf/man. My wife has asked  me over the years to see further than 'the book', I never managed to fully comprehend how the book ends, I know Harry manages to resolve his identity by accepting that between man and wolf lie a million other different personalities, and by also accepting that life was nothing more than a magic theater in which we wear our personalities as costumes to play whichever character we wish to on a particular day. This ties in with dear Bhagatji's thoughts on life being a film.., I would say again, if I knew of the existence of the knowledge contained in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I would have read and mastered that instead, but better late than never. 

I feel more at peace, and a little less glamorous, which is probably the last few scraps that my ego is hanging on to. 

Having seen things from a different angle for a few days now, I would like to make a few observations. 

I think all religions should have ended up in the same place, but some are thousands of years old, and some of the core manuscripts have been translated from the original to a different language and then translated again. Given the loss incurred in translation, and the input of the translator, could explain why some religious manuscripts seem to contradict themselves. The logical thing to do therefore would be to find one of the youngest religions, so that you are reading as close as possible to the original, who knows what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji will look like in 1500 years in your average gurdwara. 

Is it a responsible thing to do for a person to find the creator if the wordly side of life is not correct. By that I mean, before you can merge with the creator, one must ensure that you can make a living, have a roof over your head, and provide for your family,. If there is no food on the table, what is the point of knowledge. I have spent much time of late reading books and thinking, and although We are not destitute, I know in different circumstances I could easily be an ascetic, luckily, so could my wife, but there is a responsibility to provide for your family, that I think is greater than the responsibility to find god. Luckily, if you live modestly, it is not hard to earn enough to free yourself from this, but harder if you need to drive the right car, live in the right house. 

Ambersariaji once talked of animals eyes, and I never forgot that. Animals are fascinating to watch, we have in total 2 dogs (Dan/Alfie), 3 cats (Virgil, Bailey, Layla) and 4 ferrets (charlie, lowla, spot, and no name), and all of them have one thing in common, they absolutely worship my wife. Im not sure why they worship her, I feed them every other day, normally its me that feeds the cats at 4am! But  in bed last night, I watched dan, my youngest dog. As he looked at my wife, I looked into his eyes, and saw the sort of love you rarely see in humans, he looked at my wife like he was looking at a god, and given humans are born with the ability to find god, but animals are not, one must assume animals look at some owners like gods, my wife was lying on her side with dan in the middle of us, he kissed her face, licked it, and then just sat and looked at her, although dan has every much lust, ego and pride as any human, in his eyes I only saw contentment.Alfie was licking my wifes feet at the foot of the bed, he was also contented, but a tiny amount of fear, I looked at him closely, the fear was that someone, namely me, would probably stop him licking my wifes feet, and convince him to get on the floor. I then looked at my wife, she never stops talking to the dogs, praising and encouraging. When dan was younger, I slapped his bottom because he would not get out of the car, I had never had a dog before, I thought they needed discipline, 10 mins later I passed the living room to see my wife lying on the floor facing dan, she was talking to him, all i could make out was, daddy isnt angry with you, he didnt mean to hit you, but this murmuring went on for some time, until, comforted, dan came to find me, and i give him a huge cuddle, I never ever raised my hand against an animal after that, regardless how naughty they were. Dan was lucky, Dan had a god. 

I find it difficult to let go with the dogs, my wife is constantly talking to them , checking them, to me, I suppose they are a bit of a tie, I love them, but not like my wife does. For some reason, I feel that I will be unable to love the part of me that is pure until I can really love my dogs. Sounds corny, probably is, but there is something so innocent and pure about my wifes love for them, that I feel it will be a lesson to love something that has the lust taken out of it, maybe this is what I have been struggling with for so long, I find it easy to love my wife, if I am honest, I find it difficult to love anyone else as much, I have never had children, and before my wife, no pets. At the start, when she first brought Dan home, i saw him as a huge infringement on our time, and after a couple of months, I actually said 'Im not sure I can do this, he is doing his business everywhere and whines outside the bedroom', my wife replied very cheerily, 'ok, no problem, just go get him put down', she knew I could never do that, she also knew that after that point, it became my decision, not hers, so dan stayed, and I taught him to do all the things you teach your dog, other than discipline, he has none, he just knows love, he sits next to me when I eat, he puts his paw round my back when I drive, and no one ever raises a hand to him or shouts at him. I would add that both the dogs look at me with love mixed with disappointment as if they know my love has its limits, to them I am not a god, Im just Dad. The quicker that disappointment look fades, for some reason ties in with my own search for the truth within, 

thank you for reading


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 15, 2011)

For Harry Haller ji mundahug.  Our Prince.  I did not use to (winkingmunda) like pets and now he comes by if I cough or sneeze the wrong way. Sees me out and sees me in any time day or night. 

Creation all around and within us defines what God is!











The breed is[FONT=arial,helvetica] *"Tibetan Spaniel*[/FONT]".  These were started and nurtured through the ages by Tibetan monks as watch dogs for acute senses.  These are very high metabolic rate as well and have been called bed warmers.  There is no hair but actually fur.  These develop an undercoat for winter months which is shed during spring.  Feisty, independent, loving, loyal; enjoys sun, snow and shade; eats prashad, paratha, biryani, goat meat with mild spices and weight control meal lollol if eating too much of the goodies.

Sat Sri Akal

PS:  spnadmin ji if out of context, please delete.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Ambarsaria 

Very relevant I feel as dogs are descended from wolve's winkingmunda,so I hope no one dare delete such nice pictures!


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 15, 2011)

Sinner Singh ji thanks.  

Now we are getting to some cross roads.

So big question for all Guru de Pyario Jios,



Dogs evolved from Wolves (I agree with such hypothesis)
If you agree, pray tell me if,
If the dogs have all the God that they once had as wolves!
Did the dogs lose all the devil or other attributes considered bad in Wolves
Or each and everything if sustained by creation actually fits into creation
None is good or bad but is just part of creation



Let us take another baby step and say Humans evolved from monkeys (I agree with such hypothesis)
If you agree, pray tell me,
Do we still have the same God as we did when we were monkeys
Did we somehow become better than monkeys in God's eyes by losing so called bad and gaining something good
Or each and everything if sustained by creation actually fits into creation
None is good or bad but is just part of creation



Creator has rules and capabilities supporting each that is created for sustenance, survival and inter-working with other types of creation around.

YouTube        - ‪Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla.‬&rlm;


YouTube        - ‪Awal Allah Noor Upaya - Kalam Baba Bahgat Kabir ji - Alam Lohar (Audio)‬&rlm;

Sat Sri Akal.​


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

> PS: spnadmin ji if out of context, please delete.



Once I had a Lhasa Apso (almost like a Tibetan spaniel). The Tibetan name is 'barking sentinel lion dog." Also named Prince.


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 15, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Once I had a Lhasa Apso (almost like a Tibetan spaniel). The Tibetan name is 'barking sentinel lion dog." Also named Prince.


spnadmin ji thanks and you are absolutely right about "barking sentinel lion dog".  He does look a little like a lion too and definitely has the pride of one peacesign.

Our dog is not named "Prince" he just acts like one.  I won't reveal his real name without his permission lolmundahug.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

I had a pomeranian x maltese who looked just like a Tibetan Spaniel which my mum and I named DUKE.  Go the royals.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 17, 2011)

Dear Ambarsaria Ji

Quote "Our dog is not named "Prince" he just acts like one. I won't reveal his real name without his permission ". 
I had a dog too, but as you have not divulged your dogs name, I shall go one step further and not state what dog I had , Oh and my dog was not a "dog" she was a ***** !


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 17, 2011)

Sinner Singh ji thanks for your encouragement.  I hope I am not going overboard with the quotes to muse below as these teach us,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Isn't it wonderful how dogs can win friends and influence people without ever reading a book.

E.C. McKenzie 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.

Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


When the dog was created, it licked the hand of God and God stroked its head, saying, "What do you want, dog?" It replied, "My Lord, I want to stay with you, in heaven, on a mat in front of the gate."

Marie Noel 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I know that I have had friends who would never have vexed or betrayed me, if they had walked on all fours.

Horace Walpole 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The little furry {censored}s are just deep, deep wells you throw all your emotions into.

Bruce Schimmel 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.

Harry S. Truman 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Our German forefathers had a very kind religion. They believed that, after death, they would meet again all the good dogs that had been their companions in life. I wish I could believe that too.

Otto von Bismarck 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Work can wait another 30 minutes. There are more important things to do. Like throwing sticks.

Unknown Author 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This soldier, I realized, must have had friends at home and in his regiment; yet he lay there deserted by all except his dog. I looked on, unmoved, at battles which decided the future of nations. Tearless, I had given orders which brought death to thousands. Yet here I was stirred, profoundly stirred, stirred to tears. And by what? By the grief of one dog. 

-- Napoleon Bonaparte, on finding a dog beside the body of his dead master, licking his face and howling, on a moonlit field after a battle. Napoleon was haunted by this scene until his own death. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Spaniels by Nature are very loving, surpassing all other Creatures, for in Heat and Cold, Wet and Dry, Day and Night, they will not forsake their Master.

Richard Blome 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 Here, Gentlemen, a dog teaches us a lesson in humanity.

--- Napoleon Bonaparte, after being saved by a Newfoundland after slipping on his ship and falling overboard. He did not know how to swim, and was kept above water by the dog until he could be rescued. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Oh, what is the matter with poor Puggy-Wug?
Pet him and kiss him and give him a hug.
Run and fetch him a suitable drug.
Wrap him up tenderly all in a rug.
That is the way to cure Puggy-Wug.

Winston Churchill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Man himself cannot express love and humility by external signs, so plainly as does a dog, when with drooping ears, hanging lips, flexuous body, and wagging tail, he meets his beloved master.

Charles Darwin 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The friendship of a dog is precious. It becomes even more so when one is so far removed from home.... I have a Scottie. In him I find consolation and diversion... he is the "one person" to whom I can talk without the conversation coming back to war.

Dwight D. Eisenhower 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Properly trained, a man can be dog's best friend.

Corey Ford 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There never yet has been a dog
Who learned to double cross,
Nor catered to you when you won
Then dropped you when you lost.

Mary Hale 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


He is my other eyes that can see above the clouds; my other ears that hear above the winds. He is the part of me that can reach out into the sea. He has told me a thousand times over that I am his reason for being; by the way he rests against my leg; by the way he thumps his tail at my smallest smile; by the way he shows his hurt when I leave without taking him. (I think it makes him sick with worry when he is not along to care for me.)

When I am wrong, he is delighted to forgive. When I am angry, he clowns to make me smile. When I am happy, he is joy unbounded. When I am a fool, he ignores it. When I succeed, he brags. Without him, I am only another man. With him, I am all-powerful. He is loyalty itself.

He has taught me the meaning of devotion. With him, I know a secret comfort and a private peace. He has brought me understanding where before I was ignorant.

His head on my knee can heal my human hurts. His presence by my side is protection against my fears of dark and unknown things. He has promised to wait for me... whenever... wherever — in case I need him. And I expect I will — as I always have. He is just my dog.

Gene Hill 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


To his dog, every man is Napoleon; hence the constant popularity of dogs.

Aldous Huxley 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



My dog is usually pleased with what I do, because she is not infected with the concept of what I "should" be doing.

Lonzo Idolswine 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Man is a dog's ideal of what God should be.

Holbrook Jackson 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

​Dogs are our link to paradise. They don't know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring — it was peace.

Milan Kundera 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


When I got him out he was near froze solid and shivering. He was shaking so hard that I wasted half a glass of whiskey trying to aim it for his mouth. Must have got enough of it into him, though, since it did seem to bring him back to life.

Abraham Lincoln, on what it took to save his dog after pulling him from a river where he went through thin ice. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I would look at a dog and when our eyes met, I realized that the dog and all creatures are my family. They're like you and me.

Ziggy Marley 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Dogs, bless them, operate on the premise that human beings are fragile and require incessant applications of affection and reassurance. The random lick of a hand and the furry chin draped over the instep are calculated to let the shaky owner know that a friend is nearby.

Mary McGrory 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​ 
Sat Sri Akal


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2011)

What a wonderful dog Ambersariaji,  you can see the personality in his eyes, beautiful. 

I loved your post regarding wolves and evolution, and as my wife reminded me yesterday, it has been 2 weeks since I mentioned wolves. So for 2 weeks I have just been me!

I did try very hard yesterday as I had to take the boys out for a walk. I suppose if I am honest, I am jealous of the dogs slightly, they do love me, but they worship my wife. I talked to them, played with them, I noticed Alfie's smile as he runs, and his dejected face everytime Dan stole his tennis ball. I also noticed Dan allowing hemself to be chased by the much older Alfie, and slowing down to let him catch up. The sun was shining, it was a glorious day, and for once, I enjoyed the time with the dogs without thinking about the normal objects of my desires, namely food and my wife. This I mused must be the difference between lust and desire. I could walk the dogs and then drive home to fulfill my desires, but if that desire grew to a point where I could not focus on the present, and enjoy the dogs, it became lust. So I watched Dan instead, and followed his padding through the grass. Alfie had decided to snooze in the sun. I watched as Dan saw a group of rabbits and ran after them. He finally cornered one and for a moment, dog looked at rabbit, rabbit just looked terrified. I was a bit nervous, I had no desire to see Dan attack another animal, that was not the way he had been brought up. Dan turned round to look at me, and in his eyes I saw something wonderful, 'dad, what do i do now', his eyes connected with me, and then he turned round, trotted to the rabbit, and started to lick it and kiss it. The rabbit stayed still , probably in shock, before bounding off. Dan trotted slowly back to me, he seemed unsure as to whether he had done the right thing or not. I hugged him, kissed him, the one thing Dan has always been to do with me, is if i ask him to 'give dad a kiss'. he always jumps up and kisses me. 

I mentioned to my wife when I got home the situation about alcohol and functions. I explained about the meaning of the word langar, and how people were trying to use the phrase 'guru ka langar' to encapsulate alcohol. I have mentioned the different characters that I have come across on this forum, so her experience of sikhs are limited to my parents and the people I interact with here. She could not believe that people behave in this manner, and what followed were not 30 mins of intimacy but a discussion about the social and traditional aspects of sikhism, although , as the discussion continued, it became evident that there is a lot of punjabi tradition tied up in sikhism, and it possibly needs to be not as entwined as it is. 

thank you for reading


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 24, 2011)

Dear Harry Ji

Perhaps we are like Dan and should look towards our father to know what to do ,when the rabbit of desire confronts us.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2011)

Sinnerji, 

But I did not tell him what to do, he was just reminding himself of who he really was, in hindsight, my turban used to help me with that.......


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 25, 2011)

Harry Ji

My turban used to make me feel like I belonged,when I cut my hair I felt I had let the side down ,I did not tell my wife the day I did it ,as she married me keshdari and her family are mostly amritdhari.She screamed and cried for ages!
I have come to terms with it now and have got used to the smaller portions of prasad at the Gurdwara!


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2011)

Sinnerji, 

I do not miss how smug I felt when I saw a mona, even though my heart was black, and I do not miss the shame I felt when other people looked at me as an ambassador of sikhi. To be honest, although I am a mona, I never shave, or cut my hair, unless I need to look reasonably smart, so my normal look is more friar tuck then bollywood film star. I am actually very lucky not to have any social circle, and my wife's only family is her son ( I married late)

When I was young, I went into the kitchen as there was strange smell coming from a pan on the boil. I took the cover off to reveal a pan full of boiling butter. Ever since then I have found it hard to touch greasy/buttery things. In fact the first time I saw my grandfather coat his beard liberally with his hands after parshad, I thought I was going to faint!

My dad got round this, when it came time for parshad, he would sit next to me, and loudly proclaim, 'eh noo badda pasand eh' much to my protesting, and after a few weeks of this, I was cured, somewhat. 

My turban never made me feel I belonged, it just made me feel a massive hypocrite


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 25, 2011)

Harry Ji

I do not like to "spill my guts on the internet" as humdog said in the nineties.
None the less reciprocity means that if you are honest about your personal life, then I should be. 
I know what you mean about the hypocrisy ,for me "those beauties seeing whom one would get no sleep" distracted me with the turban on or off.
"Mann noo yogi karna " is very hard ,it is easy to make the body yogi!


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2011)

Sinnerji, 

I admire your honesty and although I think people should be honest, I have nothing to lose my friend. I think a central core of my own personal philosophy is that I do not care what people think of me. But then I am lucky, it is not I have huge personal convictions that allow me to behave like this, it is simply that over the course of time, I have been left more and more alone by people. I realised I hated small talk, and hated going to peoples houses and pretending that I had any interest in their holiday photos, or worse, being given a guided tour of their house and/or their factory. I am not a great fan of society, in one of your posts, you had written that you only have a drink when you dance. I was a bit jealous of that statement, it sounds like you have fun! But its a bit like going to see a show, we went to see a show some time back, but once we were there, I was bored and so was my wife, so its easier to be honest about yourself if you are trying to move away from society and have no care for what anyone thinks of you. 

I am a very very lucky man, the first words I said to my wife to be, were 'ive been looking for you in certain movies all my life', and i had!, but then I do not believe lust is a battle, to be won, you have to make your peace with it. I am fortunate that I have rolled up all my lusts, and there were an awful lot, into a little ball, that now merely  encapsulates food, drink, my wife. 
The list 20 years ago would have been casinos, drink, drugs, money, pride, ego, women, more women and shamefully,  the corruption of others. 

Of course I still find other women attractive but I honestly do not think there is a woman on earth that is as beautiful as my wife,and that has helped me enormously with the whole lust thing


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 25, 2011)

Harry Ji

I prayed for a dutiful wife and like you I'm very proud of my beautiful wife ,and I'm also pretty antisocial.I dance at weddings mostly, because I went to a wedding once and watched someone in a wheel chair, sitting watching the dancing all afternoon.I used to sit out weddings ,but not since that day ,now I know these feet were made for dancing !:grinningsingh:


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 27, 2011)

Harry Haller ji and Sinner Singh ji (my brother in crime, who is not a sinner!), I do want to clarify the following,



Once one is married there is no place for,
Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Hankar (so called five thieves or vices)
 
Everything is done out of or embellished with "Love" winkingmunda
Don't nobody feel guilty if they feel "Kam" or "Moh" for their wives and vice versa
This is living in consonance with creation
Harry Haller ji when a dog (say your Alfie) comes and kisses you, is he doing it out of "Kam" or "Moh", please talk to him and let us know peacesign
May be he just likes men 
 
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 27, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Harry Haller ji and Sinner Singh ji (my brother in crime, who is not a sinner!), I do want to clarify the following,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ambarsariaji, 

I think you underestimate my lust monster! When Alfie kisses me, he is doing it out of love, I know that, but Dan is a different type. Dan is a terrible flirt, and will expose his belly to anyone who he feels he can get it rubbed by. When Dan kisses me, its normally because he wants something. 

I have to say I really tried to bond with the boys the other day when my wife was at work, but they just sat on the bed looking at the door. In fact Alfie spends most of his time downstairs by the front door. I took a video once of what happens when its time for my wife to come home. It shows both dogs getting more and more restless, until they hear the car pull up, then the tails go, and the whining, the door opens, and they both go crazy, at this point the cat normally joins in, and it takes my wife about ten minutes to say hello to everyone. I go home, and I get a few nods from the animals if I am lucky. 


"Everything is done out of or tainted with "Love"" quote

For me every part of my "Love" is tainted with something, I wish my love was as pure as Alfie's, or my wife


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## Harry Haller (Jun 28, 2011)

Alfie is the older dog, ex guide dog, he has the same eyes as my grandfather, Dan is the younger one with mischief in his eyes, both sent here to assist me in the search for the truth


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 28, 2011)

In their eyes, I see two beings living in the Order of God. None of them are quarreling with their nature. Alfie doesn't complain that he is loving or restless. Dan does not complain that he is mischievous or flirty. They just are. It's very sweet.

Both very beautiful. I could learn a thing or two from them or from my lovebird. She is like Dan  flirty and a bit restless like Alfie.

Thank you for sharing


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## Harry Haller (Jul 2, 2011)

Bhagatsinghji, 

I have to confess to being highly amused by your last post. I have mentioned you to my wife many times in our conversations at 4am when I cannot sleep. I find your postings extremely spiritual, and what with your name, and icon, I know if if I see your name, then it is worth reading. It is funny how our perceptions fill in the blanks on the unknown, I expected you to have an alsation or Himalayan mountain dog, and as the photo came into view, what I thought was a budgie!. You can tell that my perceptions are still working on normal levels and not sikhi levels. Your lovebird is extremely cute and the fact that you keep one, I find hugely impressive, it confirms your dual nature, birds are probably the pets for people with the smallest ego, as there is not as much interaction as you get with a dog.There is certainly more love given to a bird than received,


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## Harry Haller (Jul 2, 2011)

Yesterday was not a good day for me, I slept badly the night before, sometimes life makes me feel empty and I start viewing everything as sewa, even my relationship with my wife. It does not happen very often, maybe 2 days a month, but I get very quiet and my face loses its normal cheeky stupid look. I feel like I want the answers now, and the only way to get them is to die, that is not to say I am suicidal, but if everything is maya, and clinging on to maya is wrong, then the love for my wife becomes sewa, as emotionally I start shutting down. During these times I speak to no one, other than my wife, who is very patient with me and gives me the time to come out of it. 

Yesterday I realised that these feelings are born out of a desire to find the truth, and the fear I may not find it and end up just 'living'.Reading some translations helped , poring over the articles here helped, and sooner than normal, I had my cheeky grin back. I rang my wife and apologised for my quietness, she was gracious as ever, and when I finally got home, we talked about sikhi for a while, I mentioned how I had thought of what she might look like in a white turban, Ishnabhenji's image of a turbaned clad woman has stayed in my mind, and although I have a very healthy interest in my wife's physical form, I have never ever thought of a woman in a turban before as attractive or pretty, I have always thought why????. I found a picture of a woman in battle on a horse, turban on, sword in hand, and the image looked very powerful, very spiritually strong, the caption said Mai Bhago, of course, I explained to my wife about Mai Bhago, and she was taken by the story and the photo, I also mentioned how beautiful she looked in my minds eye in a plain white turban with a khanda on the front. This is the first time I have ever thought of my wife in anything other than the normal lustful thoughts I normally have. Its balance, my wife said, your balance in yourself is balancing the way that you look at things around you, its not a man, or a wolf within you, everything is you, and you must see everything in all its finery and beauty, the thought of my wife looking serene and spiritual IN a turban is not an image I would have ever thought I would have, but it balances my normal thoughts wonderfully 

I awoke again this morning at 4am, again, maybe my insomnia is waking me at amritvela for a reason!, Dan was asleep, he sleeps on his back, with all 4 legs in the air, it is funny to look at, Alfie was on the floor, Virgil, the cat, decided it was a good time to come home and I heard him downstairs, slowly he came in the bedroom, and wife awoke, Virgil climbed on the bed, and dan kissed him, virgil then made the big mistake of turning round, so his bottom was facing dans face, dan unable to restrain himself barked and chased virgil back into the garden. 

We try to be the best we can, we kiss and hold those who should be our enemies, but we should always be vigilant of our core nature, and what brings out that core nature in others, and be able to understand the effects and consequences

thank you for reading


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 2, 2011)

Thank you Harry ji,
Lovebirds are a handful. They are very hyper, adventurous and especially cheeky. They need lots of attention. I learned the hard way that the smaller the animal the more patience is required to handle them.

PS
Your description of the image sounds like it is this painting: http://artofpunjab.com/mai-bhago.html
If so I urge you to purchase a print from him. A little goes a long way.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 4, 2011)

There is something most beautiful about sikh art, the last time I was in Amritsar, I visited the museum at Harminder Sahib, and was lost in the paintings and depictions. They prints seem to be of a very high quality and the scenes are very moving, thank you Bhagatsinghji


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 4, 2011)

Ambarsaria Ji ,

 Dear 'brothers in crime'  Consonance a great word (I had to look it up) and the other article was great just had no time to reply.

Harry Ji , as of the last few months, I seem to wake up in the night ,sometimes you can think too much,our wives never have that trouble.lol
 You can't think your way to the Universe maker ,speak frankly to the personal being aspect of our overlord,the creator of wise souls like Bhagat Singh and Ambarsaria.
Sleep well friend in the knowledge that he seeks you as much as you seek him.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 5, 2011)

So friends, yesterday, Ishnabhenji kindly sent me some shabads which were pertinent to the way I felt about the father. I have still not listened to them., I will copy them on to cd later today and play them in the car, which tends to be the only place I get any peace. 

Sinnerji, I have been insomniac since my early twenties, but at least I have now got to the point where my wife wakes up every morning at 4am too!

Yesterday I spent the day with my stepson, who works with me sometimes, he is a great fellow, and I often tell him that if I could have planned what my 20 year son would be like, he is 92% of what I would have wanted. I have been in his life since he was 14, and after being a confirmed atheist for as long as he has known me, he is slightly disappointed that I have decided to find god. However we have many fine discussions on god, (he is an atheist), and he watched the Guru Nanak story that my father had sent me on youtube. After that I showed him images of some sikh warriors, and told him stories of our heroes. He also took the belief o matic test, and all in all we had a good day. Being a stepfather is hard, but extremely rewarding, I find it interesting that things you put your own parents through come back through your own kids/stepkids, but just not as bad, in comparison to my stepson, my conduct with my father was 20 times worse. My stepson is what I would call a classic kind of guy, long hair, beard, huge interest in all things 70's, and although he does not realise it much, but very spritual. 

Today is the day that I will for the first time start listening to shabads with a view to taking away some of the bloodlust that still remains in me, although that bloodlust is pointing squarely at the thought of a good steak, a beer, or other things, its still lust rather than desire, so I am hoping to find some peace and satisfaction that I cannot find in a good steak. 

Finding god, integrated with living, is very much like climbing a large mountain. At the top of the mountain is the almighty, the creator, open and ready to envelope you with love, wisdom, understanding, at the bottom is death, nothing, blackness. As we progress up the mountain, getting closer to the creator, we have to be careful, that we keep an eye on the rock face, as well as the top of the mountain, each rope that we can tie to the side, that secures us, and anchors us, reflects  how comfortable we are in that journey, some prefer to travel light, and with the minimum of ropes, they dart up, as quickly and without the comforts that the rest of us need,. But even they can get stricken with life's problems, and find themselves in need of a rest, or a more secure rope. The rest of us have families, money problems, health issues, we need as many ropes and security in this journey, it is essential that these problems can be overcome, or dealt with to allow us a steady pace up this mountain. every now and then, we find a ledge, and make ourselves comfortable, put up a tent, boil a kettle, some of us will stay on that ledge for years, some will give up the idea of every completing the climb, and grow old and die on that ledge, others will keep climbing and find themselves arrogant and full of pride at just how far up they are, pride comes before a fall, ropes snap, things happen, some will sit on ledges and confuse others that this ledge is actually the peak, and people, happy that this path is easier than the top of the mountain, will believe them. 

Each rope, each foothold, represents security, health, family, the more secure you are, the less you fear, and the higher you go, the easier it becomes.

I genuinely envy those that have 'awakenings', that see a brilliant light shining and walk towards it, and in seconds, have merged with the creator, 'and ever since then, I have been at one with god' they say, well, I am bit skeptical, knowing the truth, and merging with the creator is hard work! lessons have to be learnt, faith established, knowledge, information, trust, so many things to find the eternal one, and yet, some can do it in the flash of a light, I think such people lose their faith as quickly as they find it, for the rest of us, it is a long, but worthwhile journey

thank you for reading


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 5, 2011)

Harry Ji

He is the mountain ,the rope and the ledge. Once there is light there is no darkness, it can be easy ,for the simple minded & pure of heart, he is easy to find,like Bhagat Dhanna Jatt ,the more cleverness you employ , the longer it will take, be disinterested in your own minds strategy ,think deeply on the Guru's Word ,that is the way. I'm just a few miles behind you, if you see him first, introduce me too brother.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 5, 2011)

Sinnerji, 

In 3 lines you have summed up why this climb has taken me so long, yes, you are right, I think too much, what is needed then, more faith, less thinking maybe


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 5, 2011)

Dear Harry Ji

A climb infers an uphill struggle,I prefer a happy freeing leap off (faith) the mountain altogether. (not literally ofcourse)


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## Harry Haller (Jul 5, 2011)

Sinnerji my dear brother, 

I have thought about this hard, whilst I agree that each way is personal to the eventual goal that we all seek, these leaps and flashes of enlightenment, seem to be only available to the pure of heart. 

Out of the two of us, I would probably say my heart is more impure than yours, so maybe thats why you get the leap of faith, and I get the mountain climb


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 5, 2011)

Veera Ji

No matter how impure we are, the purity of the word is such that it burns impurities with impunity ,as a Saint once said 'he makes good come out of evil.':blueturban:


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 5, 2011)

Harry Haller ji and Sinner ji the following comes to mind even though not related directly to Sikhism,

YouTube        - ‪Let it be‬‏

Let us revisit one more time the fundamental aspects of where we are,



We are all part of the creator and creation
Creator and the creation expects very little of us
As a matter of fact, I think, I perhaps the other day ran into God/creator.  No wonder, isn't God/creator supposed to be everywhere anyway!  I forget whether the message came from within or outside of me) and I was told to "live in consonance with rest of the creation"  mundahug
I was reminded of the following too,
The creation does not set a timeline for us to find the creator
Sometimes we do and then we get frustrated
 
 
 
 
Now aspects of us as humans
It is pretty clear that if life was like rubber stamping we wouldn't be around, let me explain
Trials and tribulations both physical and spiritual allow us to have evolution as humans and are required for survival as creation requests each and every species to be prepared for now and future to survive
If very human was a carbon copy and life was smooth as baby's bottom, I don't believe humans including us would have been around
 
 
 
Harry Haller ji within us we have highest of high mountains and deepest of deep valleys sitting in our skull
If our imagination was actually translated into physical structures, I believe none of us would have legs or limbs to endure
So the challenge is to minimize such grey matter structures in our skull if it is bothersome
We can do so by living and appreciating creation, enjoying what we have, continue to develop understanding synergistically and in joy
 
 
I will be the first to admit that we think we have the greatest pain, confusion, less of everything positive and more of everything negative
That is so because we will never know anyone better than ourselves and every cut gives us an ouch no matter how small while others may have gouges and given up on feeling cuts
 
Please don't drop into faith well of darkness, creation gave us a light bulb in our head to always live in light.  We may not understand everything all the time (Gurbani says you never will understand everything but live in consonance) but that is simply addressed as I don't know but will try to understand if important in overall scheme of things.

You may want to peruse the following as you listen to the George Harrison song below it,


> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/kirtan/36066-baras-megh-ji-til-bilam-na.html#post148716​


YouTube        - ‪George Harrison My Sweet Lord‬‏

It will be fun if you can imagine that Paul McCartney and George Harrison are wearing turbans as they would have gone very well with their hair  lol

Sat Sri Akal and have a wonderful day.​


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## RamanS (Jul 27, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts but I came across this interesting proverb and I remembered seeing this topic. Hope it helps!

There is an old American Indian proverb about a Cherokee chief who is teaching his grandson about life, and he says:

"There is a fight going on inside me.  It is a terrible fight and it is between 2 wolves. One wolf is evil --- he is self-pity, envy, regret, resentment, anger, self-indulgence, ego. The other wolf is good --- he is love, compassion, hope, kindness, peace, humility, generosity."

The old chief went on to say, "This same fight is going on inside you.  And it is going on inside every other person as well."

The grandson seemed deep in thought for several minutes, and then he asked: "Grandfather, which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee chief replied: "The one you feed."


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