# What Does Sikhism Say About Adam And Eve?



## BoleSoNihaalSSA (Jun 13, 2006)

Does Sikhism believe in Adam and Eve story? If not then are Islam and Christianity baseless?


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## dalsingh (Jun 13, 2006)

BoleSoNihaalSSA said:
			
		

> Do Sikhism believe in Adam and Eve story? If not then whole are Islam and Christianity are baseless?


 
Go to any good natural history museum and see dinosaur skeletons bigger than double decker buses and have a think about the Adam and Eve story. I think Adam is briefy mentioned as Baba Adam in one bani but in the same way Indra, Vishnu etc. etc. are.


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## hps62 (Jun 14, 2006)

I am writing as an Sikh philosopher having been brought up in a Sikh enviornment at home . Wether this is enough to label it as a Sikh philosophy point of view I am not sure of it.


As a Sikh philosphers I feel that this is an interesting hypotheses but needs to be still backed up by our todays line of thinking the so called scientific evidence.

There is a possibility that this is a corollary of our sensory perception where all living systems and any things associated with 

classically divided into three cycles :-

birth
growth 
death


May  be  it  has  some  thing  to  do  with these words.

I feel that the word Timelessness describes life the best

*" It was always there , it is there , and it shall always be there "*

ie summed up as equating GOD and its creations with timelessness the so called " akhalpurkh "


So live life to its fullest form you shall never die in a certian sense. 

An interesting link is

http://www.icreatereality.comhttp://www.rediffmail.com/cgi-bin/red.cgi?red=http://www.icreatereality.com

love to all and  every living  species  and  the  still to be  born in future .


hps62 :star:


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## jonnyBravoWarm (Jun 15, 2006)

All Sikhism has to say is what the Scientist's have to say today...... :wink: 
There was no Adam and eve and no apple that made them fall to earth.
"Ek noor te sab jag upjeya"


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 15, 2006)

Gurfateh

In one verse term Father Adem or Baba Adam does emrges.

Ang(page/Part) 1161 Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



ਸਤਰਿ ਸੈਇ ਸਲਾਰ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥ 
सतरि सैइ सलार है जा के ॥ 
satar sai-ay salaar hai jaa kay. 
He has 7,000 commanders, 

ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖੁ ਪੈਕਾਬਰ ਤਾ ਕੇ ॥ 
सवा लाखु पैकाबर ता के ॥ 
savaa laakh paikaabar taa kay. 
and hundreds of thousands of prophets; 

ਸੇਖ ਜੁ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਸੀ ॥ 
सेख जु कहीअहि कोटि अठासी ॥ 
saykh jo kahee-ahi kot athaasee. 
He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs, 

ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥ 
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥ 
chhapan kot jaa kay khayl khaasee. ||1|| 
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1|| 

ਮੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਜਰਾਵੈ ॥ 
मो गरीब की को गुजरावै ॥ 
mo gareeb kee ko gujraavai. 
I am meek and poor - what chance do I have of being heard there? 

ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
मजलसि दूरि महलु को पावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
majlas door mahal ko paavai. ||1|| rahaa-o. 
His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||Pause|| 

ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥ 
तेतीस करोड़ी है खेल खाना ॥ 
taytees karorhee hai khayl khaanaa. 
He has 33,000,000 play-houses. 

ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥ 
चउरासी लख फिरै दिवानां ॥ 
cha-uraasee lakh firai divaanaaN. 
His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million incarnations. 

ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ 
बाबा आदम कउ किछु नदरि दिखाई ॥ 
baabaa aadam ka-o kichh nadar dikhaa-ee. 
He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind, 

ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ 
उनि भी भिसति घनेरी पाई ॥२॥ 
un bhee bhisat ghanayree paa-ee. ||2|| 
who then lived in paradise for a long time. ||2|| 

ਦਿਲ ਖਲਹਲੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜਰਦ ਰੂ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ 
दिल खलहलु जा कै जरद रू बानी ॥ 
dil khalhal jaa kai jarad roo baanee. 
Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed. 

ਛੋਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਰੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ॥ 
छोडि कतेब करै सैतानी ॥ 
chhod katayb karai saitaanee. 
They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil. 

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੋਸੁ ਰੋਸੁ ਹੈ ਲੋਈ ॥ 
दुनीआ दोसु रोसु है लोई ॥ 
dunee-aa dos ros hai lo-ee. 
One who blames the world, and is angry with people, 

ਅਪਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ 
अपना कीआ पावै सोई ॥३॥ 
apnaa kee-aa paavai so-ee. ||3|| 
shall receive the fruits of his own actions. ||3|| 

ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥ 
तुम दाते हम सदा भिखारी ॥ 
tum daatay ham sadaa bhikhaaree. 
You are the Great Giver, O Lord; I am forever a beggar at Your Door. 

ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥ 
देउ जबाबु होइ बजगारी ॥ 
day-o jabaab ho-ay bajgaaree. 
If I were to deny You, then I would be a wretched sinner. 

ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥ 
दासु कबीरु तेरी पनह समानां ॥ 
daas kabeer tayree panah samaanaaN. 
Slave Kabeer has entered Your Shelter. 

ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥ 
भिसतु नजीकि राखु रहमाना ॥४॥७॥१५॥ 
bhisat najeek raakh rehmaanaa. ||4||7||15|| 
Keep me near You, O Merciful Lord God - that is heaven for me. ||4||7||15|| 



To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.


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## max314 (Jun 15, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.



No, you just have to know a well-placed metaphor when you see one.

That entire passage is just a very poetic way to say that God exists within all men.


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## Saheb Singh (Jun 18, 2006)

I would like to add more that ADAM OR EVE is somethign related to SAMAJ.
I mean since SAMAJ-SURT actualy took place by nature thru a long time period after existance of Universe is actualy is said to be ADAM - man or woman finding the feelings of responsibility.
Regds


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## drkhalsa (Jun 18, 2006)

> To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.


 

Dear Vijaydeep Singh 


Thanks for the above verse 

In this verse Bhagat kabir has used bekief system of both Muslim and hindu people to give his message of accepting Akals will and as MAX mention to say that god exist in all

Kabir Ji has stressed in Rahao Pankati :
ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
मजलसि दूरि महलु को पावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
majlas door mahal ko paavai. ||1|| rahaa-o. 
His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||Pause|| 


Raising a query and then answering at the end as Accepting Akal 's will

To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.

In islam : there is belief of Savaa Lakh Rasool ( 1 lakh 25 thousand prophet and Prohet Muhammed to be the last )
I Hindu faith : 84 lakh junes / life menefestaion .
                   33 crores Devi / Devtas or Demi gods



Jatinder Singh


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## kanwal295 (Jun 18, 2006)

Dear all
about Adam and Eve.... I am not a philosopher or a scholar, but as I see the old Testament in the Bible..... mankind originate only about 6000 years ago whereas there is scientific proof and even mythological proof that mankind has been long before this time.... Talk about 4 yugas which some believe could be as long 125000 years and most agree that it is only 2500 years.... that would mean at least 9000 years.... again, Bible mentions that God created the whole creation in 6 days and rested on the 4th....... which we all know from scientific facts and from SGGS ( I can't give you the _parmans)_ that the creation has been there for much longer and took a longtime to evolve...... so what I am driving at is the metaphoric language used.... Adam and Eve could be humanity (Satyug) and that I think holds water, for when Cain (Adam's son who killed Able, another son) was banished , he went to another place and got married obviously to a woman, who must be existing somewhere where he went (another nation).... so that means Eve was not just the only woman created.... and if she was the only woman created then Cain would not be able to find another woman as Adam and Eve only had two sons and there were no more humans... so it means humanity of the Satyug ...i believe...
Kanwal Jit Singh


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## Amardeep (Jun 19, 2006)

Sath Shri Akal Kanwal Paaji.

very interesting actually. i just checke my bible, and yes it says that Kain got married to a woman at the place he fled to..

i dont know much about this kaala yug...when did it start, and how? 

and what does this mean:

He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs, 

 ਛਪਨ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਜਾ  ਕੇ  ਖੇਲ  ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥ 
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥ 
chhapan kot jaa kay khayl khaasee. ||1|| 
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1|| 

who are these attendants and shaykhs? 

and can u provide the parmans from Sri Guru Granth Sahab Maharaj  which states that the universe or earth is older than the 8000 years which the bible states it to be..


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## rudy (Jun 20, 2006)

:shock: to think that there was no adam and eve is to say that we believe nothing and that we are able to pick and choose what ever we wish to be true. One can not help but believe that there were indead an Adam and an Eve as the scripture has said it to be so, if we do not believe this then we may as well believe Nothing!!
It is not my place to say that those who choose to believe otherwise are any-less worthy only that they are not in tune with realisim and must for the own sake have anouther look at what is writtin 





			
				jonnyBravoWarm said:
			
		

> All Sikhism has to say is what the Scientist's have to say today...... :wink:
> There was no Adam and eve and no apple that made them fall to earth.
> "Ek noor te sab jag upjeya"


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## Astroboy (Jan 29, 2008)

Let's see what others have to say about this topic. Interesting 

Hmmm...........!!!


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## 510mandeep (Feb 9, 2009)

BoleSoNihaalSSA said:


> Does Sikhism believe in Adam and Eve story? If not then are Islam and Christianity baseless?


 
He has 33,000,000 play-houses. His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million
incarnations. He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind, who then lived in paradise for a long time. || 2 || Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed. They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil. One who blames​the world, and is angry with people, shall receive the fruits of his own actions. || 3 ||

adam also known as Baba Ahdam


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## pk70 (Feb 9, 2009)

*The following Shabad of Bhagat Kabir ji on 1261 SGGS has very different application than it has been expressed here in some posts.*
*ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ **॥ **ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ **॥ **ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ **॥ **ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ **॥**੨**॥ *
*Ŧeṯīs karoṛī hai kẖel kẖānā. **Cẖa▫urāsī lakẖ firai ḏivānāŉ. **Bābā āḏam ka▫o kicẖẖ naḏar ḏikẖā▫ī. **Un bẖī bẖisaṯ gẖanerī pā▫ī. ||2|| *
*He has thirty three millions of play-houses. **His beings madly wander in eighty four lakhs of existences. **The Lord showed some favour to Baba Adam, **and he obtained paradise for a long time. *
*(**ਬੈਕੁੰਠ* *ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਦੱਸਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਤੇਤੀ ਕਰੋੜ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕ ਹਨ** (**ਉਹਨਾਂ ਭੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਿੱਥੇ ਸੁਣਨੀ ਹੈ**?)**। **ਚੌਰਾਸੀਹ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ (ਉਸ ਤੋਂ* *ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ) ਝੱਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ**। (**ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਤੁਸੀ ਦੱਸਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਨੇ ਬਾਬਾ* *ਆਦਮ ਨੂੰ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਸੀ**, **ਪਰ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਹੀ ਆਖਣ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਜਦੋਂ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਨੂੰ* *ਰੱਬ ਨੇ (ਉਸ ਦੀ ਹੁਕਮ-ਅਦੂਲੀ ਤੇ) ਰਤਾ ਕੁ ਅੱਖ ਵਿਖਾਈ**, **ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਆਦਮ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਉਹ* *ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਥੋੜਾ ਚਿਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਣਿਆ (ਉੱਥੋਂ ਛੇਤੀ ਕੱਢਿਆ ਗਿਆ**, **ਤੇ ਜੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਵਰਗੇ ਕੱਢੇ* *ਗਏ**, **ਤਾਂ ਦੱਸ**, **ਮੈਨੂੰ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਨੂੰ ਉੱਥੇ ਕੋਈ ਕਿਤਨਾ ਚਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਦੇਵੇਗਾ**?)**।**੨**। *
*This reference given by Kabir ji is not verification of Adam or Baba Adam as their being reality at all but a response to those who talk about many big personalities as per Holy Quran to have heaven and one of them is Baba Adam(Adam). The whole Shabad by Bhagat Kabir ji is just to express his own views in context of big personalities and heaven. He expresses his views in the following Vakas in the same Shabad, please read on*
*ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ **॥ **ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ **॥ **ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ **॥ **ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ **॥**੪**॥**੭**॥**੧੫**॥ *
*Ŧum ḏāṯe ham saḏā bẖikẖārī. **Ḏe▫o jabāb ho▫e bajgārī. **Ḏās Kabīr ṯerī panah samānāŉ. **Bẖisaṯ najīk rākẖ rėhmānā. ||4||7||15|| *
*Thou are the Giver, O Lord, and I am ever a beggar at Thy gate. **If I deny Thee, then I become a sinner. **Kabir, Thy slave, has entered into thy refuge. **Keeps me near Thee, O Merciful Master and that is heaven for me. *
*(**ਹੇ* *ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ) ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਹੈਂ**, **ਮੈਂ ਸਦਾ (ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰ ਦਾ) ਮੰਗਤਾ ਹਾਂ (ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਤੂੰ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ ਉਹੀ ਠੀਕ* *ਹੈ**, **ਤੇਰੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਦਾਤ ਅੱਗੇ) ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਨਾਹ-ਨੁੱਕਰ ਕਰਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਮੇਰੀ ਗੁਨਹਗਾਰੀ* *ਹੋਵੇਗੀ**। **ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ**। **ਹੇ ਰਹਿਮ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ! ਮੈਨੂੰ* *ਆਪਣੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਰੱਖ**, (**ਇਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ) ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ**।**੪**।**੭**।**੧੫**। **❀ **ਨੋਟ: ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੂੰ* *ਗਹੁ ਨਾਲ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆਂ ਇਉਂ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਰ* *ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਨ ਲਈ**, **ਤੇ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਿਆਂ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ**। **ਆਪਣੇ* *ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੀ ਬਜ਼ੁਰਗੀ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸੱਤ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤੇ ਹਨ**, **ਸਵਾ ਲੱਖ* *ਪੈਗ਼ੰਬਰ ਹਨ**, **ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ**; **ਉਹ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਸਤਵੇਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ* *ਵਿਚ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਇਕ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਜੁਲਾਹ ਹਾਂ**, **ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਿਆਂ ਭੀ ਮੈਂ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ* *ਹੀ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ**। **ਤੁਸੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦਾ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਸਤਵੇਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ**; **ਮੇਰੀ* *ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਦੀ ਉੱਥੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਾਰਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਅਪੜਾਉਣੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਹ ਹੀ ਮੈਂ ਆਪ ਇਤਨੀ ਦੂਰ* *ਅੱਪੜ ਸਕਾਂਗਾ**। **ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜੇ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ**। **❀ **ਨੋਟ:* *ਚੂੰਕਿ ਕਿਸੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ**, **ਇਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼** '**ਕਤੇਬ**' **ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹੈ**। **❀ **ਨੋਟ: ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ* *ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਿਥੇ ਹੋਏ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਦ ਕੇ ਅਗਲੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਿਥੇ* *ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ**। *
*Obviously doesn’t care about all big personalities and their said success, he just wants the Lord’s grace on him that is his Heaven. Metaphorically it is a kind of very strong opposite expression about Islamic religious leader’s claims about different personalities. Bhagat Kabir ji takes on Hindu concept of Heaven in the next Shabad and declares*
*ਕਹਿ ਕਮੀਰ ਅਬ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਾਹਿ **॥ **ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੈ ਆਹਿ **॥**੪**॥**੮**॥**੧੬**॥ *
*Kahi kamīr ab kahī▫ai kāhi. **Sāḏẖsangaṯ baikunṯẖe āhi. ||4||8||16|| *
*Says Kabir, what more can I say now, **than that the society of the saints alone is the heaven? *
*ਕਬੀਰ* *ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ-(ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਕਿਤੇ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ) ਕਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ* *ਆਖੀਏ ਕਿ ਸਾਧ-ਸੰਗਤ ਹੀ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਹੈ**? (**ਤੇ ਉਹ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਇੱਥੇ ਹੀ ਹੈ)*
*Well aligned with Gurmat, Bhagat Kabir ji only believes to have heaven in praising the Lord or in a company of Saints who are into praising Him*.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 9, 2009)

has anyone noticed the obvious "additions"..the translator adds...
While the Gurbani just mentions Baba Adam... the translator adds..FATHER OF MANKIND !!This is drawn out of his own hat !! many many more such self added additions appear in this particular translation..

2. This entire passage is an "propoganda tactic by a Muslim trying to attract Bhagat kabir Ji to Islam....and at the END Bhagat Kabir Ji gives his own VIEWS....which are 110% PERFECT and according to the Mesage in SGGS.

3. This  thought process of Bhagat Kabir Ji can be seen in the following passage which is based on HINDUISM..and there also Bhagat kabir Jis answer is the SAME.

SGGS and Gurbani CANNOT be read in ISOLATION.....the entire passage..sometimes running into several PAGES have to be READ all in "PIECE" to get at what the SGGS/GURMAT viewpoint is.... taking out isolated tuks..shabds..passages is Counter Productive and gives wrong message.

Bhagt kabir Ji doesnt give TWO HOOTS..to the laksh of prophets, devtas, commanders, baba Adams and Eves..etc etc etc....HE SAYS....NAAM JAPP is of the ESSENCE..here and elsewhere...NONE of these prophets and commanders etc are goign to even bother about a poor man like him...Naam Japp HERE in this WORLD and ENJOY all those HEAVENS HERE !!!is the BOTTOM LINE !!
Blunt language....suits the ocassion...:happy:


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## Hardkaur (Feb 20, 2009)

Adam and eve simply could not have existed, furthermore the story does not contain a very good moral lesson. As the story goes God created man in the form of himself ***( now let me just point out sumthing my philosphy teacher once told me and thats is "IF horses could draw God they'd draw God as a horse) **
and created many animals in pairs seeing all the animals with mates man felt alone so from the rib of adam god created woman (which is ironic since it is from woman that man is conceived and born) . God told adam and eve that they could eat what they wanted so long as they did not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for when you do you shall sureley die. Eve one day while alone gathering food happened to meet a serpant (satan) who seduced her into eating fruit from the tree of knowledge although she protested that God had told her not to he told her God had said that because by eating the fruit they would become like god and god didnt want that, eve not knowing right from wrong good from evil eats the fruit and "falls". Adam who comes to find eve knows that she will now eventually die and not wanting to live alone without her also eats from the tree as well. The two know become aware of there nakedness and feel ashamed and hide in fig leaves and some stories say that it then that the two give into their lust for each other. The story all in all blames the downfall of humanity on women since she was the one seduced by the devil, however if one were to logically think it through eve was influenced by a devil to eat the fruit, while adam by a mere human. God then punishes adam and eve for not obeying his command by cursing them with hard labour and ain in child birth, and of course they now will eventually die, and all children they produce will also be cursed in the same ways, (in oher words its ok to punish peole for the sins of others). 

Back to the point about adam and eve being the mother and father of all creation this makes no sense from a biological perspective. *After Adam and Eve had children, how did they proceed onto the third generation? The children must have slept with each other, or their own parents. *Although this leads morality issues even if such were the case *Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility. This happens to isolated Human population even when there are more then two families. The problem increases with severity the more the inbreeding occurs. *The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to Humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms. Which is perhaps why sikhism doesnot allow marrying members of ones family.Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. The only way that it can be true is if god had created other humans (who must have been fallen since they too must have been succumbed to death and disease) after adam and eve fell.


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## tony (Feb 20, 2009)

I was brought up as a Christian and this always puzzled me. lessons at shcool teaching me one thing and the bible telling me another. But this is what i came up with so as not to disprove my faith in God. The Bible stories where told thousands of years ago and that the people of that time were of a simple nature, none being able to read or write. Most of them at that time would not be able to count to 100 let alone able to image what a million was, so the stories had to be understandable thus a day was used as a way to describe a period of Earths history. If you actually read the bibles version of what happened it is no different to what the scientist say what happened, it even gets the sequence right, the only difference is the time line. Now the question of Adam and Eve, We all know what the scientist have proved, so did they exist the answer is yes but not as the first humans but as the first God fearing humans. It was the only way that the prophets at the time could explain how we came to be here as it was Charsle darwin who came up with the theory of evolution long after all mreligions where formed. To deny the existance of Adam and Eve would be to deny the existance of God it was to tell the people of the time were we came from and as some one pointed out earlier in this thread things get changed in translation and the retelling of stories. Play chinese whispers. Another example of the Bilbe stories which is unbelievable is Noahs storie, Noah takes every animal two at a time onto the Ark, impossible the ark would have to of been bigger than the QE2, Yet scientists have uncovered prove that there was a large flood around that time, So may be Noah only took the animals that lived around him. now the Ark doesnt need to be as big and so the story becomes more believable. Remember the bible was written by simple men from stories that where retold several thousands of times over thousands of years so you need to think about this before you disbelieve it, because no one has ever seen God yet all Sikhs believe in Him. Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 20, 2009)

A hypothetical – God created man and woman as one being with woman attached to the rear of mans mind as his wisdom.  Man talked to this conscience a part of him unseen and unbeheld.  It was decided to separate man from woman as man too akin to the creatures of Eden requested a mate. Thus Lilith was created from his thought, imagination, mind. The two were given progeny and they multiplied. Prior to the mind becoming manifest in human form, Adam had frolicked with the creatures and along with the couples pure humans came into being half creature, half human beings.

The Almighty loved his couple who brought him much joy. Alas the beings battling with a dual carnal and human nature rose in rebellion. The Lords of Eden felt Lilith too wise for Adam, whilst the miscreants schemed to supplant one of their number with Adam. The couple were tormented and torn apart. 

Lilith repudiated Adam by speaking Gods name three times and left him, but didn’t manage to return to her creator’s home instead falling prey and victim to the vagabonds who had engineered her divorce. The Creator upon hearing of Lilith’s repudiation sent three angels to demand she return to Adam. Lilith refused as she felt she had been compromised by the vagabonds. 

God relented and agreed with Adam becoming eve’s husband. The vagabonds astonished at his inability to extricate the mother and first lady of his creation saw God was weak, and in holding wisdom and the progenitor, Lilith, and controlling Adam through his submission and fall from grace in the Creators eyes and outcast from Eden thereafter controlled creation thereby. It is written whilst they have the progenitor and wisdom, nor God nor any can overpower the vagabonds.

Each Lord and Angel arising to save their mother was led astray by the vagabond’s muses and destroyed thereby. This legacy continues to this day. C.S. Lewis wrote a book called the Great Divorce, based upon this original sin of treachery and conquer of Gods Empire in the beginning and the subsequent separation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit trinity, in turn causing all division in the world.

It is a tale played out in many Sikh homes where the daughter –in-law envious, covetous, ambitious, avaricious, angered and with lust plots with the son to overcome the parents in law and gain power and dominance of the in-laws name and property thereby. Eve in submitting Adam and plotting with the snake to overtake God and seize power committed all seven sins in the one act – hence called the original sin. The division of Church, State and Media replacing scriptures causing all division in the world.

It is the falling prey to sinful woman and the downfall of man from grace into a hell where he is compelled to overcome the original sins, shed his ego, become pure in Spirit prior to his returning to the light of the Supreme Spirit.


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## tony (Feb 20, 2009)

Wjkk Wjkf
Not quite sure what your saying there jeetijohal ji,  are you still saying that every Women is the same and to blame for mans weakness for the flesh. please clarify
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 20, 2009)

Tony Ji, obviously all mortals are not created the same. 

The post implies when man is weakened reduced in his rights and feminism arises, with domineering women accorded power by law than by grace or conduct it is then we witness Armageddon, holy war, division, struggle and increase in evil. There is no other nation in the world where women are accorded equal if not greater power than men than in the US. Along with the rise in feminism, we witness the increase in deviant behaviour as man rejects woman for his the company of his own, increase in many ailments in man and the prevalence of such outright and perverse wickedness as to defy belief, Guantanamo Bay an example. Woman is born of man, procreates with man and gives birth to man, success in life is perfect coexistence with understanding and respect of one another. Sin nature, a disease of the soul creates covetousness, envy, a greed resulting in high divorce rates, dysfunctional society, broken children and the rise of godless heathenism. When man is broken and subjugated, and woman empowered by his submission than by virtue, intelligence, and honour it is then a disparity occurs. Woman was mans wisdom, whilst he was Lord and King she was his partner and supporter, uniting his brethren as one and making his job as Judge a light one. Sometimes man is wise and the woman’s submits. In a loving society, family or marriage, the strong assumes leadership, the wise role of pastoral guidance. Envy and ambition exploit a tender link and create what is the modern day societal debacle.


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## tony (Feb 20, 2009)

Dear jeetijohal ji 
I think our last posts have gone a stray should this not be on discussed under the status of women in sikhism


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## Randip Singh (Feb 20, 2009)

don't know what Sikhism says but in {censored}ney rhyming slang when you want to say "do you believe that?"

You say "would you 'adam and eve' it?"


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 20, 2009)

The eternal struggle for equanimity and the perfected utopian world, society, home starts and ends with perfecting coexistance of man and woman. The struggle is to overcome paap, haram, sin nature in all religions. It is perfectely legible and simple to understand.

Christianity required the brutal and barbaric sacrifice of God, The Christ, The Son of Man to atone for its sins, a sacrifice mankind and humanity neither required, desired nor served any purpose, its one premise and major flaw overriding the wisdom and word of the perfect sinless


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 21, 2009)

WHY should "Sikhism" have to say "ANYTHING" about whats in a book that has nothing to do with "SIKHISM" (correct word is GURMAT ) ??
IF..."anything"...???  was said..would THAT make a difference to those who beleive in that book ?? Would it make me a better SIKH ??
Sikhism...GURMATT is a Path....a UNIQUE PATH made by the Sikh GURUS....whoever follows it is a SIKH....and he /she/can stop worrying about "other".....
And the Sikh GURUS..spent over 250 years.... 10 life times to give us what we have today..the 1430 page SGGS...can you imagine how much more time and effort is needed to ..... mention all the adams and eves and such and such and to refute/etc about all of them....the GURUS CAME..they SAW..whats WRONG....and CORRECTED IT. PERIOD.
Now its up to US..SIKHS to follow them..and their Path...or LEAVE !! we do have that choice you know...!!!


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 21, 2009)

Although I am amongst the most ardent advocator of keeping ones house in order primarily, first and foremost and vet and would object to any person influencing my brethren in ‘alternative’ or modernist beliefs I have done this not through condemnation of other faiths, or the instilling of hatred and ignorance but in the GURMAT way, in a pride in ones perfect faith, in being a Punjabi, a Sikh.  

You may find discussion relating to the origins of life objectionable Gyani Ji, and I understand your fear of what you may perceive as intrusive upheaval of what you are familiar with and learned in. Sikhs no longer live in their Motherland and dwelling in their host nations, the second generation require integration with other faiths and need to be strengthened in their own,  than poisoned against the faiths of others. 

Your fear and uncertainty motivate you to speak out, and whilst I would agree Politics and the discussion of other issues or  beliefs shave forums designated for such practices, we are defenders of our faith, not accusers of the beliefs of others. Gurmat is this jewel of faith whereby one holds firmly to one’s own principles without need to demarcate the beliefs of others.


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## dalsingh (Feb 21, 2009)

randip singh said:


> don't know what Sikhism says but in {censored}ney rhyming slang when you want to say "do you believe that?"
> 
> You say "would you 'adam and eve' it?"


 
Ha ha ha!!!!

Cor blimey guv'nor. You didn't arf make my sides split wiv that one.


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## dalsingh (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm not here to insult anyone's faith but how do we explain these in relation to Adam and Eve or the Genesis account?


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## dalsingh (Feb 21, 2009)




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## dalsingh (Feb 21, 2009)




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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 21, 2009)

The findings of dinosaur bones prove nothing other than at some point probably by some rogue genetic disease the insects of the earth grew to gigantic proportions. This disease caused temperamental volatility and they all killed each other, their creed dying away thereby. Or so God tells me...

God then decided to abandon what remained of his ‘expanded’ and inflated insect farm and create man in his own image, and that plan was soon scuppered too... 

Man is now reduced to examination not of hisself or universe but of fossilized matter dug up from the earth. The ancient civilisations of the Super Human Gods is viewed by the evolutionists rather derisorily, understandable given the nouveau educated opining such views, and their lack of vision in what they seek to prove, validate or discredit .......

Spiritual pursuits are cast into the realm of mythology and folkelore along with the Gods for things greater in amenability and compliance ...


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## spnadmin (Feb 21, 2009)

Dalsing ji

Once again, great pictures. You know BBConline has great coverage of pre-historic societies and ancient civilizations :yes:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 21, 2009)

Dear Jeetijohal Ji,
you wrote:
You may find discussion relating to the origins of life objectionable Gyani Ji, and I understand your fear of what you may perceive as intrusive upheaval of what you are familiar with and learned in. Sikhs no longer live in their Motherland and dwelling in their host nations, the second generation require integration with other faiths and need to be strengthened in their own, than poisoned against the faiths of others. ..........

I beleive in EVOLUTION....and SCIENCE... DARWINISM...and am an ardent watcher of National Geographic..Discovery Science channels and ...i dont think that the Adam Eve story is "Origin of Life".....even remotely. So far not a single tuk of GURBANI has been found "Wanting/inadequate.....in this context. So I have no "fear/worries" on that aspect either.
Calling a spade a spade can be interpreted as speaking the truth..or "ridiculing"..especially to the person on the receiving end....its simply that TRUTH never changes..humans do change/becoem apoligists/bend over backwards to accomodate obviously wrong beleifs in deference to the environment..living conditions etc ( IN Malaysia...even the word "pork..pig..etc is a BAD WORD..not used in "polite" conversations......our children are taught by the majority community that ..we abhor even the "word"...no pictures of the pig are to drawn even in a childs paintings......same thing in India..beef is a "bad word"..even though its got nothing to do w ith Gurbani/Gurmatt..a human may be killed..but heaven forbid if a cow is killed....so I understand the "pressures" of life in a christian environment....)...so lets agree to disagree here...
The other day my younger brother was invited to give  atalk on Sikhism in the main church in Kuala Lumpur...His fiorst words were...You Christians beleive that there is GOD..and there is SATAN.  WE Sikhs beleive that there is GOD.
In Sikhism SATAN is also GOD. Light is GOD..Darkness is also GOD..GOOD is GOD..EVIL is also GOD.....the church members had gaping mouths...until he brought it all together through Gurbani and LOGIC of GURMATT. ( the Christians invited him expecting some half baked ideas about amrit vela..amrit.. akhand paaths..sehaj paath..naam japp techniques..yoga postures etc etc etc etc THAT most sikhs today describe SIKHI to be !!!AND :happy: that they could hack holes in and say...you see our WAY is the Only .WAY...)
A few Years back a Sikh family converted to christianity....and they wrote a Book on WHY we chose christianity ?? and you know what was their SIKHI?
Their view of Sikhi was a "picture of Guru Teg Bahdur ji" hanging in the hall that they used to bow to daily....and when they converted....they were surprised that the "GURU" they had been bowing to daily..COULDNT DO A THING !!! Can you imagine such idiocracy???  THAT PICTURE was SIKHI !! in actual fact they had gone bankrupt..the church provided funds to rehabilitate them....and now they bow to Jesus...in reality they have just replaced a photo of Guru Teg bahadur ji with one of Jesus...when the next bankruptsy comes..they may just convert to Islam....Sorry if i digress...maafi.


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## pk70 (Feb 22, 2009)

*In His nature, the beloved Lord has implied lessons to learn for us. Look how birds teach their offspring to get food and to protect themselves in the odds times without any professional schooling likewise hunting animals teach their offspring to hunt and how to be protective in odd times. We seldom learn from them because the ego of knowing too much keeps us above all this. It is another curse of limitation of our knowledge. No Nidhi Sidhi is in their world, no imaginative philosophies are there either. Only idea promoted generation to generation is how to survive because that is what they need. They are freer than us regardless the Odd times they face in general. With so much superiority in intelligence why still we are bankrupt in progression of thought?  It is our inability to understand symbols and imaginative stories layered in human Psyche and of course as Sikhs we rarely go beyond talking to comprehend Guru Message.*


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 22, 2009)

Evolution is a false baseless and inconclusive doctrine.  Science like religion and philosophy is as adept at disclosing the truth and reality of life and mankind as those facilitating it for their aims and purposes. Darwin researched and found man to be closely related to animal, and woman closer, Mohammed knew this, Jesus too loathed vile women, and Nanak spent most his life away from home on pilgrimage. According to the same research women are as different from men as men are from animals, many know this but shy away from an embarrassing truth. It is all false knowledge. 

Matter is created by living energy, life force, spirit, light and thermodynamics. The demagogues in power seek to oppress humanity in a constant struggle of hell. Truth is superfluous to their cause, hence truth is silenced and suppressed and falsehood, deceit, wickedness and the wicked are lauded and furthered. The devil and God are not as one and to imply or state so is a negligent blasphemy. Rather mortal’s submission to any power willing to feed his belly is given the title of God is why the confusion arises. You know illustrate my point in knowledge away from scripture leading to lunacy. 

What are pigs whitewashed blacks, the enemy of the Aryan and five races of God,  shiny radiant people who are immoral, perverse, carnal natured and inclined wicked. Witchcraft is a peasant art, and popularised by these aggrandised destroyers of Godhood from the beginning. As my enemy spoke to me I pass on to you, the swine, or whitewashed blackhearts will never allow any God in this world, as they destroyed and tormented all Gods before they destroy humanity today. What success can God achieve if he himself retains at his right side the pig spawn eve, what purpose is destroying the nations when the destroyer of humanity gives counsel to the Lord great in name only.

Look about you, you will see clear evidence of the power of Satan at work but you call him God because he feeds you and indulges your whims whilst destroying and looting you out of sight. Sikhs, Jews, Hindu’s and Christians will happily worship anything that promises deliverance but rarely delivers for any great period of time. Kalyug is upon us. Satan remains supreme, all who have eaten his fruit are accorded name and status, and those who refute his harlots and wickedness remain in obscure, nonexistent hell......

Many would consider calling the Supreme Lord a miserly tormenting sorcerer Shitaan a blasphemy, and the reason for the seeming absence of any such great reverential figure her in the world today that one can place ones faith in ...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 22, 2009)

"Nanak spent his whole life AWAY on Pilgrimage ".......( underlying point is that He did it to ESCAPE the Women in his house ??..am I correct or ???)
What a massive understatement and misinformation.
Nanak DID NOT consider Woman Vile..evil..man's maid servant..man's booty..loot..slave..etc or unlcean..etc etc.
Certainly nanak DID NOT "run away" on so called pilgrimage....
He CONDEMNS pilgrimages !!
He went on to SAVE the WORLD. No other "prophet" even went more than 100 kilometres outside his own state..Mohd in Arabia...Krishan in Mathra..Ram in Authia..Jesus in Jerusalem.... ITS their "FOLLOWERS" who spread their religions....
GURU NANAK WALKED THE TALK...from Punjab to Arabia...Punjab to Bengal/Assam//Punjab to Sri lanka...South East Asia....Punjab to the Tips of the Himalayan mountians/Tibet/Ladakh/Maan sarovar Lake...every square mile of the then known WORLD. The ONLY prophet to have travelled so widely...to spread the Divine Message of Human Brotherhood..to uplift the downtrodden..to declare So Kion mandah akheeyeah jit jammeh Rajaan..why calll her lowly who gives birth to KINGS.... Guur nanak ji spread His OWN RELIGION..GURMATT by Personal EXAMPLE !! Sikh armies and empire builders didnt go converting nations thru the sword....SIKHI is Personal LIVING.
SIKHISM is the only religion named after its FOLLOWERS...not the founders !! shows Sikhs are more important....just as a School is made famous by its "students" who study there and excell.....and there is NO SATAN in Sikhism..ONLY the CREATOR.


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 22, 2009)

Man discloses so much of his own circumstance in his ripostes and rebuttals. ‘’Man Gur Mil Kaj Savaare..?’’ what of the blessing of grace within the temple of one’s own home and the universal realm of one’s imagination within one’s own mind, Giyani Ji …? 

Concerning underlying messages or inferred insinuations these are puritanically inspired by the readers own imagination according to their own ingrained views, opinions and ideologies. WaheGuru Ji ...


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## dalsingh (Feb 23, 2009)

“Creation and destruction happen through the word of the shabad.
Through the shabad, creation happens again.”(SGGS p117)

“Nothing of the color and the form of the creation shall remain;
the entire expanse is transitory.” (SGGS p999)

"The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits. The more you say about them, the more there still remains to be said." (SGGS p5).

"Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies. Many millions are the ether skies and the solar systems....So many times, He has expanded His expansion....Many millions are created in various forms......His limits are not known to anyone." (SGGS p276)


Jeeti, I’m surprised you discount evolution so off handedly given the evidence which all points away from the Adam and Eve theory. 

I recall reading some bani saying God has created and destroyed planets/the universe[?] many times before. I couldn’t find it again, maybe Giani ji knows of it?

Anyway here is an interesting academic paper I found on Sikhi and science for anyone interested. 

http://d.scribd.com/docs/1kuexjo40kicazx48l0z.pdf


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 23, 2009)

DalSingh Ji, It is best to remain mindful of the fact the SGGS as with all scriptures are written by wayfarers upon the path of truth. What seems an immense and complex universe on one day, on another seeks as a globe in our hands, an intricate sphere of firing neurons, and life energy flowing in an overall pattern with variations simmering under the surface. It is a perspective and measure of comprehension and consciousness....

The original tale of Creation, Eden, the principle figures and their downfall disclose the fundamental premise of all truths. From one seed grows a tree, of branches and leaves of seasonal change, bearing fruit and shade, taking pollutant and emitting clean air, propagating other trees to fall one day and be reduced again to the soil from where it arose. 

We may analyse the trunk, the fruit, the colours and the shape of leaves, the age and the amenability, the emissions and the functionality, we may study the fruit or the composites of each particle taken from the wondrous tree itself born of one grain and its interaction with the environment, air, water and sun. The seed contains the potential for such wonderful creation, it is all truth required to be watered and alighted to be understood, to be lived to accomplish its full potential. ...

YouTube - Intelligent Design/Evolution Debate (1 of 8)


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## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> WHY should "Sikhism" have to say "ANYTHING" about whats in a book that has nothing to do with "SIKHISM" (correct word is GURMAT ) ??
> IF..."anything"...???  was said..would THAT make a difference to those who beleive in that book ?? Would it make me a better SIKH ??
> Sikhism...GURMATT is a Path....a UNIQUE PATH made by the Sikh GURUS....whoever follows it is a SIKH....and he /she/can stop worrying about "other".....
> And the Sikh GURUS..spent over 250 years.... 10 life times to give us what we have today..the 1430 page SGGS...can you imagine how much more time and effort is needed to ..... mention all the adams and eves and such and such and to refute/etc about all of them....the GURUS CAME..they SAW..whats WRONG....and CORRECTED IT. PERIOD.
> Now its up to US..SIKHS to follow them..and their Path...or LEAVE !! we do have that choice you know...!!!



 This one did not sink in until a few days had passed. Thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 23, 2009)

Dal singh jio..
Its in Sukhmani Sahib..Page 276..
kai jugat keeno bisthaar...kaii baar pasrio pasaar...


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## tony (Feb 23, 2009)

As i said before the pictures are explained if you look at the Bible as a simplistic way of explaining how the earth got from what it was to what it is. taking each day to mean a period in earths evolution. a day representing several millions of years not just 24 hrs. God creating all the lifeforms that ever existed. Man being his last creation.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 23, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> DalSingh Ji, It is best to remain mindful of the fact the SGGS as with all scriptures are written by wayfarers upon the path of truth. What seems an immense and complex universe on one day, on another seeks as a globe in our hands, an intricate sphere of firing neurons, and life energy flowing in an overall pattern with variations simmering under the surface. It is a perspective and measure of comprehension and consciousness....
> 
> The original tale of Creation, Eden, the principle figures and their downfall disclose the fundamental premise of all truths. From one seed grows a tree, of branches and leaves of seasonal change, bearing fruit and shade, taking pollutant and emitting clean air, propagating other trees to fall one day and be reduced again to the soil from where it arose.
> 
> ...



I failed to get anything....the Creator has not limited......either the time taken to change..or the mathematical calculations needed..or "billions" of intermediary creatures from "Cow to Whale"....this man is taking the fundamental christian arguments BUT he said  nothing that i consider to be "anti-Gurbani"/or proves Gurbani wrong.  After all cows eat GRASS and Whales eat PLANKTON...the food remained the same as their lungs....etc - while cows cant swim..whales cant run.....so "Darwin" is wrong !! Maybe..?? Darwin is not Gurbani/Sggs compliant in FULL..he is just  a man who may be wrong in some things..and right in others..probably more RIGHT than Wrong...the Adam Eve theory is definitley for the birds (excuse me).. I put ALL my faith in SGGS.

1. The Sikh GURUS are not "wayfarers"..THEY MADE THE HIGHWAY !! Nanak GADDEE RAAH Chaliayah says Bhai Gurdass... "Gaddee Raah is HIGHWAY to TRUTH..the NIRMAL PANTH.... TRUTH HIGHWAY.   "wayfarers"....pick up things..thats why there are babylonian..and other ancient "stories of creation" that say the EXACT same things the Bible says....NO SUCH in SGGS.... the Sikh GURUS have their OWN INDEPENDENT OPINION ON ALL SUBJECTS.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 23, 2009)

tony said:


> As i said before the pictures are explained if you look at the Bible as a simplistic way of explaining how the earth got from what it was to what it is. taking each day to mean a period in earths evolution. a day representing several millions of years not just 24 hrs. God creating all the lifeforms that ever existed. Man being his last creation.




I have heard this before...the "days" of Bhagwaans in heaven are supposed to be "millions of years"....is this grounded in fact..a "day" on jupiter is NOT the same as on earth... the Earth YEAR is NOT 365 days on Jupiter..Saturn..Neptune....and this is just in our neighbourhood....how LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG would be "days" on Galxies billions of light years away ???
But isnt this stretching the meanings of words?? Obvioulsy the Bible is written for MAN and for this EARTH..so WHY would the "DAY" be any different ?? IF it was different then why wasnt the TERMINOLOGY EXPLAINED so that no ambigiouity would arise...
I also read that in the Battle of Jericho...the SUN WAS STOPPED in the Sky so that a few extra hours could be gained for the battle to go on.....Now we know that the SUN is NOT a LAMP hung on the ceiling that you can keep up as you wish..IF the SUN ever "STOPS"...its the End of everything....GURBANI says something else alltogether..IT says that the Sun and the Moona dn everything lese..CONTINUES on a RELENTLESS JOURNEY...no stopping...no slackening....all in His HUKM..TIME and TIDE Wait for NO MAN is the real TRUTH.

a little humour....
A "Man" asked God..OK God How LONG is YOUR "minute".... OH its about a billion centuires. The Man was shocked....Can you grant me my Wish then..I am in a hurry....
Just a minute replied God.....


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## dalsingh (Feb 23, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> DalSingh Ji, It is best to remain mindful of the fact the SGGS as with all scriptures are written by wayfarers upon the path of truth. What seems an immense and complex universe on one day, on another seeks as a globe in our hands, an intricate sphere of firing neurons, and life energy flowing in an overall pattern with variations simmering under the surface. It is a perspective and measure of comprehension and consciousness....
> 
> The original tale of Creation, Eden, the principle figures and their downfall disclose the fundamental premise of all truths. From one seed grows a tree, of branches and leaves of seasonal change, bearing fruit and shade, taking pollutant and emitting clean air, propagating other trees to fall one day and be reduced again to the soil from where it arose.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, if you are portraying the Adam and Eve story in a metaphorical or allegorical sense I understand. 

Still, strong evidence points away from the notion that the universe or indeed planet earth was created in a form similar to what we know today, which is the premise of the Adam and Eve account. The evidence for this is vast and compelling. We now know that the continents were likely to have been together at one point. We know that the planet existed a LONG time before humans existed and other lifeforms that are now long extinct existed. The planet has has cataclysmic events. We have had ice ages etc. The picture is infinitely more complex than the Genesis account of creation.


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## tony (Feb 23, 2009)

I was only trying to say how i saw a way of religion and science existing side by side without conflicting. Charles Darwins theory of evolution is no longer just a theory the preceding pictures are prove of this, Genetics are another way of provng his theory. So with science stating how the earth came to be, I sought a way of showing myself how  God could exist that science could not disprove. Remember not all are raised in a Sikh or religious house hold, I had to cling to a believe in God when most where turning to science for their origins and questioning their believes, to keep reciting from an unproven book was not enough for most. Any way it worked for me 
Tony
ps Thank you for translating the panjabi to English it helps no end


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## spnadmin (Feb 23, 2009)

Gyani ji, Tony ji

Apologies -- but let me add another problem to the mix where a literal reading of the Adam and Eve story is concerned. This story appears in the oldest part of the Hebrew Bible the Book of Genesis (Origins) and was not written down for centuries. Before that the stories were continued as part of oral tradition. Passed down, memorized by this and that group of Hebrews, who were nomadic tribesman and lived as clans. So then with oral tradition we have this problem -- more than one story is told about the same thing, all of them a little different from the others, or even very different from the others. By the time the oral narrative is written, the scribes are faced with a problem. How does one put all the stories together and resolve all the contradictions? In the book of Genesis more than one account of Creation is blended together in one book -- careful reading of Genesis leads to the amazing discovery that some stories sound as if they do not even come from the Jewish tradition, but possibly were from surrounding tribes and civilizations, such as Ancient Sumerian sources. Why? Maybe because the ancient Hebrews wandered throughout the area from what is now Jordan through to what is now Egypt and Saudia Arabia, picking up local creation myths and mixing the stories together.

The monotheistic belief of the ancient Hebrews actually comes into view much later historically than the Adam and Eve story. Think about that. Who is the God who is speaking to Adam. It cannot be the God of Abraham because Abraham was not yet alive -- hundreds of years had to pass. So then was it the God of Abraham who was inserted into an older story by a group of scribes who were adding their own twist? 

The thing that I question is whether Jewish scholars of ancient Biblical literature take a literal translation themselves of Adam and Eve story? I suspect they do not. Another interesting thing: The centuries old scholarly debates in the Talmud going back to the middle ages do not concern themselves with this but rather with ethical interpretations of later books. In other words-- how do the scriptures give guidance to lead an ethical and moral life?


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## dalsingh (Feb 23, 2009)

tony said:


> I was only trying to say how i saw a way of religion and science existing side by side without conflicting. Charles Darwins theory of evolution is no longer just a theory the preceding pictures are prove of this, Genetics are another way of provng his theory. So with science stating how the earth came to be, I sought a way of showing myself how God could exist that science could not disprove. Remember not all are raised in a Sikh or religious house hold, I had to cling to a believe in God when most where turning to science for their origins and questioning their believes, to keep reciting from an unproven book was not enough for most. Any way it worked for me
> Tony
> ps Thank you for translating the panjabi to English it helps no end


 
Well I find the notion that science and religion are mutually exclusive strange. I'm Sikh but I believe in the evolution theory and do not think it makes me compromise my beliefs in any serious way.


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## tony (Feb 23, 2009)

Dalsingh ji 
I am now a sikh but was brought up as a christian and science does go a long way to disprove Genesis. As a young boy/man it was hard to understand how can the bible tell me the world was created in 7 days when in science im told in took millions of yrs, science contradicting religion. i wasnt born with an old mans mind and I gave what I thought was a way as a Sikh of explaining the book of Genesis and the Adam and Eve story without having a bash at another religion. 
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 23, 2009)

The picture is as complex or as simple as the interpreter relating it.  Upon embarking on this path of historical allegories many have ardently strived to bury into nonexistence one will ultimately reach the conclusion that the spiritual path towards detachment and liberation from the constraints of mortal existence is the only way to free mankind from death and rebirth. With video evidence we cannot absolutely conclude the reasoning and involvement of the 9/11 tragedy let alone occurrences of six thousand years before, especially if the ancient Creator and his wisdom have no great and urgent need to be found. 

There are many unfathomed mysteries in the scriptures. Then and now to present date truth is fact and data that serves the interests of those holding power at any given age. That is not truth but distortion. Iraq and its Leader were destroyed publicly by the powers at large before a witnessing world on the pretext of the nation concealing weapons of mass destruction. There were none, and had there been the war would undoubtedly be shorter lived than the ongoing media debacle it has become. 

Then and now the world remains in the fiery ocean of hellish political spin. The innocent civilians dying by bullets and bombs would need look no further than the west and its cohort accomplice nations aiding and abetting the secretion of truth to further their own cause top power. Many have come and revealed the world as we know it to be an evil and terrible lie. Agar Lok Khudaar hai, then the one who rules the earth is neither God or Almighty but the Wizard of Chaos we see inhabiting the palaces, whitehouse and media of this age, and the ages gone by, passing temporal faces and names of the one demagogue and his cohort feminist. 

What Gods do we seek and to whom do we pray. The people are as willful, malleable, corruptible as the ones who nurture, indoctrinate and preside over them. Gurmat teaches practice and understanding of the truth, word and wisdom to unshackle our souls from this hellish world and escape its entrapment. Those who heed find peace and salvation. Being led by politics or media brainwashing and sowing of the seed  of discontent leads to suffering. All covet power and high positions gained by many grand promises, without acceptance of responsibility for the suffering, and none deliver, the people being as infidel as the rulers with multiple allegiances to sustain their power. That is truth.


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## kawalsin (Feb 24, 2009)

Dear Amardeep Ji

As per Gurmat, none knows when the universe originated. Guru Nank Dev ji says in Japji Sahib (Ang 4) :

" ਕਵਣੁ  ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥ ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਵੇਲ ਨ 
ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ  ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ"

" What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas. That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran. The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season. The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows."
 
The Universe has been created and destroyed countless of times before. Guru Gobind Singh ji says in Chaupayee:

"jb audkrK kIAw krqwrw ] pRjw Drq qb dyh Apwrw ]
jb AwkrK krq ho kbhUM ] qum mY imlq dyh Dr "sbhUM ]

"When God thinks of creating, He makes countless people and lands.
When He wishes to annihilate them, all lands and people merge with Him."
Daas

Kawaljit Singh


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## Parma (Feb 24, 2009)

Does anybody think there is a connection between adam and eve and shiva and parveti (shiva's partner incase i've spelt it wrongly), ?

They both have a connection with a serpent
Both one a male the other a female
both beginers of life
Adam beginer or Father of mankind
Shiva beginer and destruction of creation
Abraham was the founder or creator or the person that laid the foundation down for the kaaba
All the abrahamic faiths believe in adam and eve
The Kaaba is thought to have been an old hindu temple according to the legend or history of King Vikramadithya
Islam is a faith that believes in the story of adam and eve
Could the stories of shiva and parevti have also been tranformed and mis translated through time as many other words just like chinese whispers have over time
Hinduism is one of the oldest recorded religions in the world. If not the oldest
Just some thoughts to get people thinking anyone else that wants to add to these comparisons please do
Is alla another word for durga
Comparisons I have made are mostly with the hindu religion as that being one of the oldest faiths would be the one religion that would be more influental on the stories in other faiths
All the abrahamic religions have such stories on gods deeds and happenings
Shiva had kids
Adam had kids
Parveti is also looked as the goodess durga who is known in many forms
Eve was percieved as a sinner a saint and also the giver of life to mankind in the biblical connection
All these religions seem to hold alot of similarities in the stories.
Seems like a lot of alterations may have been made just as many kings and rulers do in time. Each adding there own take on things with their own advisors saying things happened this way and not that way. Just to show their public that god is with them the conqueres and not with the conquered.
Would be good to get to the bottom of all these similarities and to get to origins of all these religions
Hopefully all the origins are god
At least I can be happy being a sikh and I can forget about the stories, on whos right and whos facts are wrong and just get to believe in god with just faith.


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## spnadmin (Feb 24, 2009)

Parma ji

You may be onto something big! Now you have me wondering about "creation myths" and their deeper spiritual meaning (even Adam and Eve myths). Check the writing of Joseph Campbell to see if he has anything to say that matches up with your theory.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 24, 2009)

Parma said:


> Does anybody think there is a connection between adam and eve and shiva and parveti (shiva's partner incase i've spelt it wrongly), ?
> 
> They both have a connection with a serpent
> Both one a male the other a female
> ...



EXACTLY and APTLY put Param Jio.
All these "creation Myths" have deep roots....and the same story is being told...just change of "names" as actors ( similar to PIRATED MOVIES these days..he he he...SAME STORY LINE..but Shah rukh khan (Bollywood version) instead of Sean Connery. (Hollywood version)..for example....

For a SIKH/GURMATT PATH is UNIQUE and STAND ALONE. Guru nanak ji Totally REJECTED all that was wrong in the earlier vedas, shstras, purans, kitabs and katebs etc...bypassing all those small pagdandis..village paths and gave us the Gurmatt SUPER HIGHWAY autobahn with unlimited SPEED !!! Why waste precious time..better used in Naam Kamaii....


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

tony said:


> Dalsingh ji
> I am now a sikh but was brought up as a christian and science does go a long way to disprove Genesis. As a young boy/man it was hard to understand how can the bible tell me the world was created in 7 days when in science im told in took millions of yrs, science contradicting religion. i wasnt born with an old mans mind and I gave what I thought was a way as a Sikh of explaining the book of Genesis and the Adam and Eve story without having a bash at another religion.
> Tony


 
Tony,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my inquisitiveness. I have been reading your posts with great interest and can feel your love for Sikhi and you admirable bluntless for what you see wrong in the Sikhs when they do not follow the Sikhi path and its values, the ones you have discovered. With your comments you have given the credence to the Gurmat ideal that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. BTw, there is a book by Dr. I.J. Singh named , " On becoming a Sikh". He has written many books and you will enjoy them all. If you find it difficult to get hold of his books then you can email him at IJ Singh" <ijsingh99@gmail.com>.

I apologise for getting away from my main reason of this post.

I would like you to share with us your own journey till you entered the tributary of the Sikh ocean and the reasons and the thought process behind it.

Would love to hear that.

Thanks & Regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 25, 2009)

‘’





Parma said:


> Does anybody think there is a connection between adam and eve and shiva and parveti (shiva's partner incase i've spelt it wrongly), ?All the abrahamic faiths believe in adam and eve. The Kaaba is thought to have been an old hindu temple according to the legend or history of King Vikramadithya. Islam is a faith that believes in the story of adam and eve. Could the stories of shiva and parevti have also been tranformed and mis translated through time as many other words just like chinese whispers have over time. Hinduism is one of the oldest recorded religions in the world. If not the oldest. as the goodess durga who is known in many forms. Eve was percieved as a sinner a saint and also the giver of life to mankind in the biblical connection’’





Parma said:


> *****************************************************************************************
> You are overlooking the obvious. Adam had a first wife Lilith who produced thousands of children daily, but he submitted and was destroyed thereby, to eve.
> 
> Shiva was Parvati's consort. Parvati is the oracle of wisdom and mountain of light. Shiva submitted instead to the witch who thereafter destroyed both Shiva and Parvati, Adam and Lilith.
> ...


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

I am just curious. What kind of belly button piercings did Adam and Eve have?

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

adam's first wife lilith...producing "THOUSANDS" of children DAILY !! WOW....thats even more amazingthan the making of Eve from a RIB..( Actually the very FIRST CLONE PRODUCED !! he he ...the oh so slow "scientists" have only NOW managed to produce "clones" and that also of animals only....God beat them to it so long ago....)

Anyway i watched a Documentary the other day and it was about the THINGS THEY BANNED FROM THE BIBLE...and this lilith character was one of those !! Perhaps Jeei Ji can shed more light on this "loose woman" ( thats why she was banished form adams life i heard ??_)


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

Here is the link to lilith...
YouTube - Story Of Lilith - Succubus
Banned From The Bible
YouTube - Banned From Bible 1 of 12
Banned From The Bible http://ariainvictus.110mb.com/


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## Archived_member7 (Feb 25, 2009)

there is no truth of adam and eve being Shiva and Parvati ...Since Lord Shiv ji is considered Aadi Deva ..He wasnt 'born' . Akaal Purakh is said to have created Brahma ji Shiv ji and Vishnu ji ...

If we consider first 'Man' in India it is Manu and his consort is Shatrupa...

Again there is no truth of Shiv ji being destroyed ...He is the Destroyer Diety Himself ..


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 25, 2009)

Jesus was banned from life and murdered, sacrificed for the sins of worms who remain as sinful, Mohammed was cast at the feet of Ayesha to wash cutlery and darn her clothes, Sita was banished from her in laws house by the engineering of Kakeya, the banished by Ravann to live in his garden surrounded by demons, then banished by Ram to end her days in the jungle, Guru Gobind was made to remarry, Adam and eve were banished from the garden of Eden by God, John the Baptist was beheaded and his head laid at the feet of the idiot Kings evil queen, mankind is banished to this divided world to struggle, die or survive. There are few good Saints who wished well for teh world, refused to bow demagoguery who were ‘’banished ‘’...

Khalistan was banished too as was the last Gyani Jarnail Singh who tried to free Punjab, which remains banished to this day. In matters of banishment there are many victims of the evil who were brutally ‘’banished’’ ...

It would appear and I use the title loosely, ‘’Giani’’ dabbles more in gossip amongst gossiping wenches than any scriptures. It is said cursed be the blasphemers of The Holy Spirit or the Original Christ cloaked in the sins of man and his loose, immoral woman. Maybe you should change your name to something more appropriate of your ilk, you sad miserable wretched {censored} ..

With regard to the links regarding Lilith, I can only presume if an extreme group were to make a documentary about Sikhs, they would not depict the noble, square jawed Sikhs we know but an entirely bleaker and defamatory picture would they not, as would any enemy ...

Ditto to Ghulam Nabi '' You read your scriptures, I know my demons well ...


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

Ghulam ji

The style of Hindu painting creates this look. I don't know how to explain this intelligently. 
But hou will see in ancient art forms of India an idea of beauty in which Shiva's hair will be
braided and he will  have jewels. The pics of women are different. The ideal of beauty for females/goddesses
is different -- in costume, jewels. etc. You have to look at the male/female images side by side
to see the differences.


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

Please stay on the topic of Adam and Eve and do not stray. aad0002


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## Archived_member7 (Feb 25, 2009)

Nabi ji ..there is a concept of people potraying Shiv ji as Ardha Narrishwara...which means Shiv ji had shown them that He was Half of His own and Half or his holy consort Maa Parvati...

The idea behind this is the indian concept of 'your better half' ..which signifies that love for your life partner should be such that you and she be One ...

Such concepts are symbolic to teach people ..


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

*In addition -- Proselytizing in the forum is forbidden. Post was deleted for this reason. *

Antonia


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## Archived_member7 (Feb 25, 2009)

I am sorry ..i thought that was your last name ...No ..its not feminine qualities ...it is a concept of Him and his divine Consort Maa Parvati ji being ONE ...HE is known to be a Fierce Diety ..He is considered to be the Diety of War...


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

*Please stay on topic.*


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 25, 2009)

Answer to the post question – Sikhism moved away from the squabbles and power struggles of the deities and focuses solely upon the word and wisdom of the Guru Ji’s sacred teachings. Jealousy between the demagogues allows not for the adoration of any one sole singular Entity, and it is wise that it be so. Those sitting in positions of power demand a reverence the true Gods cannot with any conviction offer. The Gods do not require the adulation, praise singing of the faithful, it is enough humanity dwell peaceably amongst one another ...

to the moderator - why dont you be a little more specific as to what precise comments are deemed inappropriate, surely it would clarify matters...


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

*Any comments that are off topic, defamatory, or proselytize will be removed without exception. *


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

*Please get back to the discussion of Adam and Eve. aad0002*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> Jesus was banned from life and murdered, sacrificed for the sins of worms who remain as sinful, Mohammed was cast at the feet of Ayesha to wash cutlery and darn her clothes, Sita was banished from her in laws house by the engineering of Kakeya, the banished by Ravann to live in his garden surrounded by demons, then banished by Ram to end her days in the jungle, *Guru Gobind was made to remarry, *Adam and eve were banished from the garden of Eden by God, John the Baptist was beheaded and his head laid at the feet of the idiot Kings evil queen, mankind is banished to this divided world to struggle, die or survive. There are few good Saints who wished well for teh world, refused to bow demagoguery who were ‘’banished ‘’...
> 
> Khalistan was banished too as was the last Gyani Jarnail Singh who tried to free Punjab, which remains banished to this day. In matters of banishment there are many victims of the evil who were brutally ‘’banished’’ ...
> 
> ...



BY WHO ?? and where is this written ??
And PLEASE use the Full Name of Guru Gobind SINGH......you may dispense with the "JI" but NOT SINGH.

Quote: In this single collection, *THE HISTORY CHANNE*L® has gathered a definitive survey of these "extracanonical" texts. Learn of their creation alongside - or even before - the more accepted books of the Bible we know today. Discover their messages and what we can conclude about the early Church from their exclusion. And see the lengths to which ancient editors went to hide them and to which modern scholars have gone to uncover them."  

The History Channel is a reputable TV Station and certainly doesnt fit the "Extreme/enemy/anti-Christian etc category. Its equal in integrity to the Discovery Channel and National Geographic Channel.TTHE DOCUMENTARY ON NIHUNG SIKHS - KNIGHTS OF GOD MADE BY ONE OF THESE CHANNELS WAS VERY GOOD AND QUITE NEAR TO THE TRUTHFUL DEPICTION OF SIKH NIHUNGS. I WOULD TRUST THEM TO BE UNBIASED AND OBJECTIVE.
CHRISTIANS MASQUARDING AS "sikhs" HAVE BECOME TRANSPARENT so soon....:happy:


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 25, 2009)

I refuse adamantly, no matter how bored and to converse with someone who gathers his information from media programmes, propaganda based productions made to make money than enlighten. Kindly consult your scriptures and spare me the vacant defence of the Guru is an attempt to appear noble, and kindly change your name, Jarnail Singh seems a little grand for one with a propensity to gossip and is influenced by media productions, a media that has defamed religion, doesn’t report atrocities {l994 Sikh holocaust }where their interests aren’t served, and do nothing but titillate and spread lies. I base all my reasoning on empirical and scriptural allegories*. The media plays the modern day role of the Wh0re of Babylon, lauding the degenerates whilst desecrating anything moral or wholesome, and those who are flattered, serviced or paid by it serve its interests well by defence.

I have the courage of my own convictions and do not use my religion or faith as a shield I also do not require your advice as to the addressing of the murdered Guru.. 

You would probably know better than I what loose women are, although admittedly I do not know of your pedigree. I am not in the habit of frequenting forums, and have done so only to share my understanding with others. Desist from your remarks and remain in your own kitty circle ...

***Addendum GJS : I too am banned by the media, retained in this haunted housew of demons where only those completely controlled by the demon king are allowed anywhere near me, and only as robots. No christmas cards, guest, social life or occupation. You are being used as a pawn for criticism he has niether the standing or courage to say. {My axe to grind}...***

Hopefully my last posting :idea::star::shutup::badmood::AR15firing::work::closed::ban:


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> Answer to the post question – Sikhism moved away from the squabbles and power struggles of the deities and focuses solely upon the word and wisdom of the Guru Ji’s sacred teachings. Jealousy between the demagogues allows not for the adoration of any one sole singular Entity, and it is wise that it be so. Those sitting in positions of power demand a reverence the true Gods cannot with any conviction offer. The Gods do not require the adulation, praise singing of the faithful, it is enough humanity dwell peaceably amongst one another ...
> 
> to the moderator - why dont you be a little more specific as to what precise comments are deemed inappropriate, surely it would clarify matters...



I am more than glad to do that. Departures from the discussion of Adam and Eve that are really directed at the personality, intellect, religion, values, of another person are off topic and in some cases are defamatory. Any kind of belittling or criticism of a person rather than a person's expressed ideas are against forum rules. Discussions of another topic -- for example Shiva instead of Adam and Eve is off topic.

It is OK and probably a good thing to build on a previous topic when someone says something that you want to debate. But an entirely new direction would not be acceptable.

In the example where Gyani ji has posted some videos -- they are to make the point that Creation Myths are available for study in the TV media. This is not off-topic for two reasons: the Adam and Eve story are about Creation; the story of Lilith is part of the Book of Genesis, the part of the Hebrew Bible where Adam and Eve are discussed and is considered a story older than that of Adam and Eve. So that is not off-topic IMHO. 

Everything that I deleted has been both off-topic *and *defamatory of another person.


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## spnadmin (Feb 25, 2009)

Let me add 

All thread participants: -- that the last several exchanges are getting super-critical of people. So the best path is to debate issues not personalities -- another forum rule.

Please abide by this. Thank you.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

Its my personal "rule" that I never reply to personal attacks and am never in a bad/terrible/etc type of "mood"...I dont know whether its due to my face ( muscles pulling face into perpetual smile) or my insides. I used to be  a virtual "flame thrower of the Napalm type"..Itt da jawab patthar naal in Punjabi lingo....slowly i wisened up...suche demons are not healthy for ones heart..Faridah Gussa mann na handhai ( Doctors will also tell you the same...but helathwise i am in the peak !!).
I feel so sorry for those taking part in the above "debate" who have sent me Private messages bordering on the pornographic and including the August Names of Guru Nanak Ji, His siter Bebe Nanki ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji etc in a failed attempt to rile me up..Sorry guys/gals...as far as the Gurus are concerned..spitting at the SKY guarantees the spit falls back on your own face....and you are free to carry on doing so..Tu Sultan kaho hau meean teri kavan wadaii..not a single word of ours can add or detract from His Wadaii. As always I welcome a good healthy debate as far and as much as my knowledge goes...BUT i am not for frollicking in the Gutters -that is your own private party and you are welcome to it. AND this is definitley NOT MY LAST message...Guru Ji Willing..I will continue writing as long as i have breath in my body.:welcome:


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 25, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Its my personal "rule" that I never reply to personal attacks and am never in a bad/terrible/etc type of "mood"...I dont know whether its due to my face ( muscles pulling face into perpetual smile) or my insides. I used to be a virtual "flame thrower of the Napalm type"..Itt da jawab patthar naal in Punjabi lingo....slowly i wisened up...suche demons are not healthy for ones heart..Faridah Gussa mann na handhai ( Doctors will also tell you the same...but helathwise i am in the peak !!).
> I feel so sorry for those taking part in the above "debate" who have sent me Private messages bordering on the pornographic and including the August Names of Guru Nanak Ji, His siter Bebe Nanki ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji etc in a failed attempt to rile me up..Sorry guys/gals...as far as the Gurus are concerned..spitting at the SKY guarantees the spit falls back on your own face....and you are free to carry on doing so..Tu Sultan kaho hau meean teri kavan wadaii..not a single word of ours can add or detract from His Wadaii. As always I welcome a good healthy debate as far and as much as my knowledge goes...BUT i am not for frollicking in the Gutters -that is your own private party and you are welcome to it. AND this is definitley NOT MY LAST message...Guru Ji Willing..I will continue writing as long as i have breath in my body.:welcome:


 
Gyani Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said and no one could have put it better. This is the reason this forum needs a person like you who can add clarity and sanity to some insane moments that do not happen rarely in this forum.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 26, 2009)

My main reasoning for removing my own presence from all forums are many, mainly that my unseen demons evidently use angry malcontents to attempt criticism of an entity unwilling or unable to protect itself. Yyou may have received critical emails but those who use you as a pawn for their ill deeds have not, this is why the Bani encourage in these times silence or to speak with wisdom and tacit diplomacy. The war of the God, Man and his Creator may be fun for some, it is not if you are a mother. Although I gain great contentment from enlightening others to new world views that embrace and corroborate traditional scripture, I have no wish to expose good people to the demonic, cunning and evil forces that stalk and hound me whereso I roam. Of course as there is no scientific evidence to attest to the existence of God or demons, few can or are willing to admit to demonic haunting or siege. I gain no gratuity from bringing them to the door of innocents in this forum, who at times are less than so. Only for this reason I have withdrawn, my hell goes on, tragedies occur about me, death, crashes, disasters all caused by the sorcerers, with no evidence to incriminate the perpetrators. I am tormented and know them to be the two crows at the helm of these nations but of course I cannot prove it. Although like you I refuse to endure or suffer silently, forces and mechanisation of evildoers hounding others as well. 

Brahm Giani sada nir-lep. Jaise Jal me kamal alep. 
The Brahm Giani{Saintly} are unaffected and pure, As a lotus upon muddy waters remains pure.

Brahm Ginai sada nir-dokh, Jaise sur sarab ko sok. 
The Saintly remain pious and free of sin. The burn the sinful as the Sun burns dross.

Brahm Giani ka drist sman. Jaise Raj rank kau lagai tul pavan.
To the saintly all men are as loved equal, as one. As the wind cools all without distinction or discrimination. 

Brahma Giani da dukhian so narak paye 
The slanderers/tormentors of the Saintly will be cast into hell.

We do not witness the slanderers of the good sand Godly being cats into hell, rather the contrary in this age of Kalyug. The fame and power seekers are given many glories whuilst the good and respectable are devastated and destroyed in their own homes by witches and sorcerers. What care I for paapi, allowed to wreak havoc to be punished later and for this reason and the battle of the Guru’s I have no great faith in any Primate ruling the world as God. It is a love for the Supreme Creators humankind that I divest my energies for ...

My remarks if any found to be untoward are as always directed at the swine who torment both the nations, world and I ...


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 26, 2009)

:advocate:  :chips: :sigh: :work: :support::nothingtoadd:


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## spnadmin (Feb 26, 2009)

Gyani ji

One day later I am finding out that you too received emails bordering on the pornographic! :inca:You were one of a few people this happened to. This kind of behavior cannot be permitted here at SPN. The two involved are now toast. They are out!  If they try to join under another name, one of us will recognize them by their style of writing.    If it happens again please tell one of the mods's immediately -- not just you, but anyone who has this experience. I am very sorry that it happened in the first place.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 26, 2009)

Dear AAd0002 Ji,
Gurfateh.

Not your fault anyway....
but it was uncanny...a day earlier i viisited the topix website (after reading about it on spn) and one day later i  saw the same sick nonsense in my spn mailbox...i was wondering..did i bring in this demon ?? is it due to my "comments " on adam and eve and all that ?? etc. I slept it on a day and decided to ignore it....now they are gone..and all i can say is thanks..good riddance to bad rubbish. Closed minds such as these have just simply cannot tolerate differences of opinion....and they cannot escape by just blaming their internal demons/bad moods... and what not. What i encountered on Topix was just utterly disgusting -lets endeavour to keep SPN as clean and envigorating as much as we can. Thanks for your encouragement. Appreciated.:welcome:


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## Mikelall510 (May 12, 2009)

WOW does any punjabi sikh actually read the SGGSJ and understand??
here:

When such possessiveness is erased and removed, then God comes and resolves his affairs. || 1 || Contemplate such
spiritual wisdom, O mortal man. Why not meditate in remembrance on the Lord, the Destroyer of pain? || 1 || Pause || As
long as the tiger lives in the forest, the forest does not flower. But when the jackal eats the tiger, then the entire forest
flowers. || 2 || The victorious are drowned, while the defeated swim across. By Guru.s Grace, one crosses over and is saved.
Slave Kabeer speaks and teaches: remain lovingly absorbed, attuned to the Lord alone. || 3 || 6 || 14 || He has 7,000
commanders, and hundreds of thousands of prophets; He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs, and 56,000,000 attendants. ||
1 || I am meek and poor . what chance do I have of being heard there? His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the
Mansion of His Presence. || 1 || Pause || He has 33,000,000 play-houses. His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million
incarnations. He bestowed His Grace on *Adam*, the father of mankind, who then lived in paradise for a long time. || 2 || Pale
are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed. They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil. One who blames​the world, and is angry with people, shall receive the fruits of his own actions. || 3 ||

You guys make us Sikhs people look bad
Your the type of people that would say that we dont believe in heaven and hell even though we do and say that


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## Admin (May 12, 2009)

Dear *Mikelall510* Ji, without all those obnoxious adjectives around the Gurbani tuks, you message could have been even more effective... but now with your inflammatory comments your message is liable to get lost... indeed we sikhs make us Sikh look bad... :welcome:

WOW Welcome to SPN!!


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## Parma (Jun 29, 2010)

From trying to explore a story some people have taken things to heart. Exploring a story is not what is wrong, it is getting the message wrong that is wrong. What Jesus taught, What Guru's taught, What buddha, what mohammed taught, What each and every good man has taught. Its not that people get things wrong only each sikh thinks a different way, and as such each listener hears the message but within each person there is there own journey which is different so each story reflects that person which can not be the same (example: some born in poverty others by a silverspoon). If these philiosophies (messages) go wrong then everything is wrong. The stories are stories, I dont think any religion has ever based itself on a story but on a message. Path is the same. PEACE to ALL.


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