# Sikhs For Change: Language - A Barrier For New Sikhs?



## Lionchild (Jul 4, 2005)

*language barrier for new sikhs?*
By Khalsa Starr

About half a year ago, i converted to sikhism. And even though i don't call myself a sikh yet (not amritdhari yet), i do try to follow as much of the sikh code of conduct to the best of my ability. (thanks to s1ngh!! again)


However, I have noticed something while going to the local Gurdwara - all of the talking in the temple was in Punjabi, especially in the main hall. The langar room was also a difficult place to navigate and talk with others since very few spoke fluent english. There were those who did speak both, but not very easily understood.

This made me ask a question: "is there a language barrier for new sikhs?" especially converts?. I asked this question because for new people, we want to learn new things and more about sikh teachings. Converts are usually very eager to learn more about sikhi (like myslef). However, it a little difficult to learn when you can't understand what is being said!

I'snt a gurdwara supposed to be a place for learning and enlightment? not a place of confusion and isolation?"


After asking these questions, i then realized that i am probably not the only one who has run into this wall. While i already know some sikh history and the code of conduct, what about those who are just curious? or want more information? So far the internet has been my greatest teacher, but just think about it - isnt the temple and granth sahib supposed to your teacher?

I asked someone about this, and they said that the granth sahib should only be read and spoken in the "language of the guru's" aka punjabi. Well that's great and all, but to me (and others newbies), the "language of the gurus" is useless and pointless if you dont understand it.

So to make things even more interesting, the gurudwara doesnt even have any english words on the building or nearby to suggest that this is a sikh place of worship. Where is a curious mind supposed to go? Or the new convert? The internet first? come on, if the sikhims was really meant to be learned on the net, wouldn't the guru's mention it? I think not.

I decided to pursue this problem and see what can be done about it. Until then i (and others) will continue to sit on the floor in the main hall and langar room and wonder what our "teachers" are saying...


-khalsa Starr


If any one is interestied in this issue, I'm currently looking for fellow sikhs who are new (converts, or reborn) and sikhs who are open minded and can think "outside the box". I am thinking about setting up a group for this.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

As an English person who goes to Gurudwara I can tell you I fully back you up on this. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings is NOT for Sikhs, it is for ALL.  All Gurudwaras should provide translation throughout the day in western countries to help cater for the minority... or ir maybe an idea to have three halls in Gurudwara, one with Punjabi SGGS, one for functions and other with English SGGS... Keep the English and Punjabi hall open at all times to everyone can get benefit. I know some Gurudwaras translate but I can tell you for a FACT they only do it at the busy times which is useless for someone like me who goes during daytime kirtan or reading or whatever...
Hopefully there will be a day where there are Gurudwaras like mentioned above of Gurudwaras that have English SGGS.


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## Lionchild (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> As an English person who goes to Gurudwara I can tell you I fully back you up on this. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings is NOT for Sikhs, it is for ALL. All Gurudwaras should provide translation throughout the day in western countries to help cater for the minority... or ir maybe an idea to have three halls in Gurudwara, one with Punjabi SGGS, one for functions and other with English SGGS... Keep the English and Punjabi hall open at all times to everyone can get benefit. I know some Gurudwaras translate but I can tell you for a FACT they only do it at the busy times which is useless for someone like me who goes during daytime kirtan or reading or whatever...
> Hopefully there will be a day where there are Gurudwaras like mentioned above of Gurudwaras that have English SGGS.


 
One thing i mentioned on another forum, is that there should be english only programs at one part of the day for some of us who dont understand punajabi, or those who are jsut curious. Every gurdwara should hold a copy of SGGS in English or whatever language that is comman outside.

Also, some english signage should be placed outside to mention that all are welcome and that this place is a sikh place of worship.

-KS


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Dear Khlasa - As a "traditional" (born and raised as Sikh in India) sikh and now living in USA, I can truely understand your problem. 

The "Global" Sikh is in a emerging phase right now and needs lots of nurturing. This problem is not only faced by newly converts but also by the next generation kids who are born to Sikh immigrants outside India.

There are few steps being taken by the Sikh Community to handle the problems faced by Global Sikhs. 

As you said, the internet has been the most helpful. There were no Sikh related website 10 years back and now there are tons of them.

There was only couple of English tralsations of SGGS couple of decades back, and now there are many.

The Sikh community is gearing up to handle this multiple "translations" (or interpretations) of SGGS and trying to come up with one single Panth approved English translation of SGGS. This is needed to avoid any mis interprations of SGGS teachings by various translators.

For you, I would suggest, download english translations from internet. I will not recommend/approve any as I have not studied all of them (yet). But, there is enough information on the net.

And then there are SPN sewadars (including myself) of this forum who will be ready to help you anytime with the best of our humble knowledge.

Regards


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## Living Mind (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Dear Khalsa Ji, Yours is truly a predicament and one which I truly understand and realise. However, let me assure you this is by no means onbly peculiar to 'new converts' or 'born again sikhs'. There are many like me, who were born into Sikhism and married into Sikhism but into an environment where Punjabi was and is not commonly spoken. This has not only resulted in my immediate family now not speaking the language but even not understanding it. The question arises as you have asked, how can we appreciate the services when we do not understand them. 

The mainstream Sikhs have thus far refused to see the need for services to be held in any other language other than the native. Like you, I certainly feel we should look into this matter and enhance the values of Sikhism for one and all, immaterial of language backgrounds. This was the case of some Buddhists here in Singapore and they got to have some Buddhist leader from Australia to help out with English language services and have now expanded to a sizeable number.

You might not find immediate and big numbers to support you immediately but I guess with the movemnt gaining momentum, you just might be the Piped Piper of Sikhism!

I would say, go..Go...GO for it!


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jul 11, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> If any one is interestied in this issue, I'm currently looking for fellow sikhs who are new (converts, or reborn) and sikhs who are open minded and can think "outside the box". I am thinking about setting up a group for this.



COUNT ME IN!  I figure it will take me 4 years of study to get myself to a point where I can understand spoken Punjabi as well as a 7 YO native speaker.  Plus the beauty of gurbani transcends language; why not share that beauty?  There are so many non-Punjabi people who would be blown away by the SGGS if they encountered it.  

Let's do this, Khalsaji!


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## Lionchild (Jul 11, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Good, thanks Jogindar Singh, we will set up the group via msn, or perhaps yahoo, or even better tribe.net!

I'll pm you on this, ok?

To any one else interested: i will set up a group soon and will include any one interested who wants to discuss this topic and come up with ideas to counter this issue.

If we get enough ideas and ppl involved, we can then act on our ideas!

-Khalsa Starr


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## Lionchild (Jul 11, 2005)

*Youth and Language barrier?*

This is youth side of the possible language barrier.

My friend and I had a very deep and informative disucssion on the phone a few day ago, in that conversation we discussed various issues, but mostly on the language topic.

I found most disturbing was this:

In our gurdwara, all of the services are in punjabi, and most of the families do sit in the main hall. As i looked around though, it appeared that most of our younger audience looked more interested in the crumbs on the floor than the speaker or singers. It then came to me that some of us didn't know what what going on, i wasn't alone!

I heard the sound of kids in the hallway, they were playing hide-and-seek. I looked outside, a group of sikh teens were playing basketball. Am i the only one that sees a problem here? I have a good idea that most of these ppl don't spend more time in the main hall cause they don't know what is going on. It turns out, the language issue pops up again.

I was shocked to learn that many of the younger generations and some of the even the older ppl don't understand punjabi! Not to mention, probably more can't even read gurmakhi.

Now, isnt our youth supposed to understanding and carrying on the word of sikhism? and isnt the future of our religion in our youth?
Well how will that be when most of our youth don't even understand or can't read what's is being tought?

This might be a small factor in why some of our youth find it a little dry or boreing at the temple becasue they don't understand what's going on or what is being said. I even at times found myself being a little tired of listening to something i didn't understand.

Times are changing, and more ppl will want to be sikhs - ppl who don't neccesarily understand punjabi. We need to start bringing in a few changes if we want to change with the times. I don't honestly like it, however it is for the greater good and it will make going to temple a little bit more enjoyable for some.

This makes me wonder how many more youth all over the world don't understand what is going on.

Some thoughts and observations to ponder on.

Have any ideas or change? Have any gurdwara expriences that areflect this issue? please tell us what you feel on this topic.

-Khalsa Starr

BTW, i'm seeting up a internet group for ppl interested more on this issue.


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> Good, thanks Jogindar Singh, we will set up the group via msn, or perhaps yahoo, or even better tribe.net!
> 
> I'll pm you on this, ok?
> 
> -Khalsa Starr



We've met on Tribe.Net (I'm Mojave66 over there) but I think that Yahoo Groups gives us a better numerical chance to do some outreach and get the group going.  

GurFateh!


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## jaymelee (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

*i have a language barrier and its hard for me to post because there are no translations on the posts.i would love to post to more articles but how when i cant understand the language???? im an american whose sikhi husband died and he taught me very little.thank you for reading this.i wish waheguru to bless you all with a silent song in your hearts and have a peaceful day.bye for now,gurujot kaur*


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## Neutral Singh (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Well, this is gr8 !! If you all feel comfortable, we can open a new section dedicated to this purpose right here.  Dear Khalsa Starr, could you be kind enough to chalk out the preliminary requirements of lanching such a group and with the consent of all, we can do it at our website here, that would be wonderful and even if it is not possible to do it here even then SPN can be used as good promotional tool (1,500 like minded members here could be made aware of such an event with a single mouse click and then periodical reminders ). Please do not take me as a mean admin but if we could make make something really useful out of SPN that would be gr8 !! 

Best Regards
Aman Singh


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## drkhalsa (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Dear friends

I would like to join in and help (if i can of any!!)
Just like Baljeet singh I am indian (punjab) born and raised but english is my working language so i may be of any help to you 

Jatinder Singh


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## Arvind (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

This is a very practical issue. And I admire author's good intentions about this. Aman veer has suggested a way out by keeping things on SPN. That s great. Discussions may take place here in the same manner as yahoo group would have done it. Just in case, people are not aware of chat functionality here, you may like to discuss your ideas online. I am a fluent speaker of Punjabi and English, and am willing to contribute to this wonderful cause. Please feel free to discuss more.

Warm Regards, Arvind.


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## Arvind (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

Veer ji,

Please keep us updated whichever way you like to proceed abt this issue. You may like to utilize my Punjabi and English communication skills towards this.

Thanks.


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## Jogindar Singh Kaur (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

SPN would be *perfect* for this.  My apologies for not thinking of the obvious!!!!  

I should/will do more publicity around promoting SPN anyway, wherever and whenever appropriate, including on my new geocache token.


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## Arvind (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



What I feel is, it is more important that we get people who are self-driven to do the needful towards the cause. I had been involved in a few projects, but dumped those due to changes in priority. But well, those projects are always unconsciously in my mind, and I firmly believe, right set of committed people can do wonders.

I urge SPN members to use SPN chat regularly. It is sitting stagnant rt now. Personally, I prefer online chats, instead of forums. and then paste anything relevant in those chats in forums too, which cud hv been of use to other people with similar thoughts.


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## Lionchild (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Well, this is gr8 !! If you all feel comfortable, we can open a new section dedicated to this purpose right here.  Dear Khalsa Starr, could you be kind enough to chalk out the preliminary requirements of lanching such a group and with the consent of all, we can do it at our website here, that would be wonderful and even if it is not possible to do it here even then SPN can be used as good promotional tool (1,500 like minded members here could be made aware of such an event with a single mouse click and then periodical reminders ). Please do not take me as a mean admin but if we could make make something really useful out of SPN that would be gr8 !!
> 
> Best Regards
> Aman Singh


 
What a great suggestion! Why start a group on yahoo or tribe, when you can do it on a sikh website! sikh resources and forum is just a page away! This is great, i hope we can work something out Aman (and all the users). I think this new group or "section" would be a good add-on or addition to SPN. I think it would be best if the admin and I talked over how this would actually work, seeing he does control SPN. I think thisn new group and SPN could both benifit if we worked together on this project.

As for the preliminary requirments, i'll get them ready for today and should be up in an hour or two. This will be an interestinf and exciting project!

I think i will do a little donating to help out the work  

-Khalsa Starr


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## Lionchild (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Veer ji,
> 
> Please keep us updated whichever way you like to proceed abt this issue. You may like to utilize my Punjabi and English communication skills towards this.
> 
> Thanks.


 
this addon should be just pasted as another reply in the original thread, seeing it's basically the same topic.


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## Sher Singh (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

WJKK WJKF

i agree, i think that the youth don't want to go to the Gurdwara because they don't know what's going on. Why do we do Ardas? What's kirtan?, etc. We need to bring a language into the Gurdwara that all the youth can understand... English. I'm not saying that we should stop Punjabi, but when someone is doing Katha or something, use english so that the youth will be interested. I too, jsut like Khalsa_Starr ji look around and see the youth more interested in the Dhal stains in the Langar Hall, or when someone drops some Parshad and it dries up on the carpet that children are more interetsed in that then listening to Kirtan, etc. I think the Granthis should recite Gurbani in both English and Punjabi. Reading the Gurmukhi and then translating it so that both Punjabi speaking and English speaking and understanding youth can understand. This is just my idea.

WJKK WJKF


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## NamHariKaur (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

*Sat Nam!*

*I am glad to see your concern about these things. I do not have any answers but wanted to share with you and others here, a bit of my own experience  (as a non-punjabi)  with Gurbani , because I think you might find it inspiring and refreshing. *

*I came to Sikhism only 15 months ago at the age of 55 and was brought in by a transformation that came about from hearing gurbani kirtan from a CD by Snatam Kaur. (Shanti).  I had no idea what I was hearing at the time but my heart chakra was opened by just that one hearing of it and I have never been the same since. At the time I was not involved in any spiritual practice nor looking for a path. *

*By the Guru's Grace, when I then went to purchase that CD I found that Snatam Kaur lives in the same town I live in (Eugene, Oregon) :shock: and she does Kirtan on Sundays and Wednesdays when she is not on tour.    *


*I find that my experiences are more intense and inspiring when the Hukham is taken in Gurbani. When the English translation follows that, it is interesting but less powerful for me. Listening to kirtan or the Hukham in Gurbani brings about kundalini energy surges, intense Anand and sometimes "visions" that help me to gain perspective on what is going on in my life. Many times tears still spontaneously fall from my eyes as I listen to the Gurbani while meditating - while not having any specific thoughts or memories of emotional events. I feel that hearing Gurbani continues to be transformational for me.:roll: *

*Because of all this I have taught myself to read Gurmukhi over the last four months.  I want to be able to read the Guru directly myself. I can now read it but only very very slowly. My pronunciations are fairly good for a non-Indian but I do intend to get some help soon improving some of the kh and dh sorts of sounds that are never produced when speaking English. :hmm: *

*At this point I know very little vocabulary -and mostly the words from JapJi - which has been my main practice tool for both pronunciation and reading the script because there are many tapes and CDs of JapJi to listen to and the obvious reason that JapJi is the essence or centerpiece of the Guru's Word.  Vocabulary and understanding the meanings of what I am reading are my next goal but I have been very happy to just learn how to read and produce the correct sounds thus far. ohyeah: *

*I have concerns myself about Sikhism or the lifestyle of some who are Sikhs - especially 3HO Sikhism here in America and have begun to watch for others to connect with to brainstorm with about our various issues. I do not want to be specific here in this post but perhaps in another one if there is interest.  *

*Gurumustuk's Singh Khalsa's Blog accesible through his www.sikhnet.com website mentioned some issues too (in the May or June postings) and I have written to him asking him to help connect me with others having concerns and am waiting to hear back from him. :whisling: *

*Thought you might enjoy knowing that the Word of the Guru is alive and well - as evidenced by my own spiritual awakening and transformation.  *


*I hope the smiley faces are not too distracting from my post! *

*Wahe Guru!*

*Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, Oregon, USA*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.


coming from an "oldie" ( just relative to you all...but deep inside i feel as young as anyone else out there...) of 56 years who is very very fluent in Both English and Punjabi, being a trained Misiionary Gyani from Punjab university and  B.A Hons in English / Economics from Univesity of Malaya, I can see the need of the English speaking SIKHS whose first language is NOT Punjabi.  My wholehearted support for this venture.

This is one "sacred cow" that we got to "slaughter" one of these days..the days of ONLY PUNJABI are going....over the horizon...Love of Punjabi/Gurmukhi will come sooner rather than later once a SIKH becomes Committed to GURU JI...insisting on Punjabi at the very beginning dulls the spirit and may drive people away.

jarnail Singh


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## drkhalsa (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

Dear Nam Hari Kaur

Thanks for you r very interesting post and it seems that Akal Purakh has showered you with his grace and hope same for anybody looking for it

*



 I have concerns myself about Sikhism or the lifestyle of some who are Sikhs - especially 3HO Sikhism here in America and have begun to watch for others to connect with to brainstorm with about our various issues. I do not want to be specific here in this post but perhaps in another one if there is interest. 

Click to expand...

* 

you r are most welcome to disscuss the issues here on this forum


Jatinder Singh


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## Arvind (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

Off-Topic:

Nam Hari Kaur ji,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post and experiences detailed. 

Waheguru.


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## Lionchild (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

Nam Hari Kaur ji...

I liked listening to kirtan and the granthi speaking in punjabi as well, however, i would get much more use out of it if i knew what they were talking about. Yes, i agree that the granthi should speak in both punjabi and english, and/or have a projection screen so people cans ee what is going on (another user suggested it). I agree that every sikh should try to learn gurmakhi, and it should be encouraged for new sikhs if they want to take the SGGS and kirtan to the next level. For beginners like me though, i want to learn the fundementals and teachings of sikhi, it should be available at a gurdwara - not just the interent. The internet is not always the safest and best place to learn.

The gurdwara should be a place of learning, not confusing. And it should eb the first place to look for info, not the interent.


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## Arvind (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

Somewhere on forums, I had read that a few gurudwaras have these kind of equipments, which facilitate reading in English on screens, of what is being said by Granthi ji. Anyone who has seen that kind of gurudwara may shed more information abt this.


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Dear Arvind Ji - We have a laptop and a projector at our local Gurudwara in Connecticut. We have downloaded a software called "Gurbani Researcher" from "SikhiToTheMax.com". It is a wonderful software which lets you search any shabad from SGGS and prepare a powerpoint presentation which can be navigated easily to display the line of shabad being sung by ragis. The shabads have a line by line english translation displayed which makes it very easy for everyone in the sangat to understyand the meaning of the shabad. 

You can download that software and try it out yourself.

Regards,


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## Arvind (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Baljeet veer,

Thanks for the reply  

Khalsa_Starr, how about looking into this in more detail, and then proposing this at the local Gurudwara. Here, I assume there is a requirement of dedicated resource, who is going to look into the shabad at the site/presentation, so tht it cud appear on the projector. And yes, sikhitothemax.com is a site, I always get onto to look for meaning of Guru Sahib.

Thanks again Baljeet ji.

Best Regards.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

I thought sikhitothemax.com closed ages ago? It doesn't appear to be working for me..


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

I have the software on a CD. I will see if I can locatethe CD and upload the software here.

Regards


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## Arvind (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

CC, In between, the site goes down. Even today morning, it was reported down. 

Aman Veer, may be you need to tell some location to Baljeet ji, where he could upload the software (or any file to be uploaded by anyone), if needed.

Regards.


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## Lionchild (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

the projection screen sounds good, where do we get the software?


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## Arvind (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Baljeet veer is going to upload after Aman veer gives directions to him. I assume, this software is available on sikhitothemax.com , which shud be freely downloadable.


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## Lionchild (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Baljeet veer is going to upload after Aman veer gives directions to him. I assume, this software is available on sikhitothemax.com , which shud be freely downloadable.


 
That will be the easy part, the hard part will be to get our "president" to agree to such a project. Our leader isnt exactly a model sikhor a good person to look up to. He eats meat, doesnt cover his hair in langer, and somtimes even the holy room! Also, he wears shoes in building and is alsways going to barbecues and grill, parties and so on.

I'll post on SPN about the progress i make here in vernon.


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## BaljeetSingh (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

??? not sure what the last post meant and who are you referring to as "president"?


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## Arvind (Jul 15, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

I guess, he is talking abt the president of local gurudwara there... reg it may be difficult to convince him of the changes which are needed to acquire projector etc. for display of Gurubani and meanings in English


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## Lionchild (Jul 15, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> I guess, he is talking abt the president of local gurudwara there... reg it may be difficult to convince him of the changes which are needed to acquire projector etc. for display of Gurubani and meanings in English


 
Well, if there is a will, there is a away, a little quote that i think may be helpfull for some. Yes, the "President" is the leader of the gurdwara in vernon.


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## Rani (Jul 17, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> *language barrier for new sikhs?*
> By Khalsa Starr
> 
> About half a year ago, i converted to sikhism. And even though i don't call myself a sikh yet (not amritdhari yet), i do try to follow as much of the sikh code of conduct to the best of my ability. (thanks to s1ngh!! again)
> ...


 






  _______________________________________________________


 Hi,
    firstly, I would like to know how you just converted to the Sikh religion, because I was always told for someone from outside a Sikh community, it takes 10 years. Secondly, the Guru Granth Sahib is in Gurumukhi, not Panjabi.  'Panjabi' ie, 'language of the five rivers' is spoken by most ethnic Sikhs today, or somewhat broken by those born and raised in Western countries, it is kind of like modern 'Gurumukhi' ie 'script of the Guru' but it is not the same as 'Gurumukhi'. If you are in a Western country, I'm sure people around you in the gurdwaras, especially the younger generations would speak English.
   A lot of the time however the paigh do not. I had a similar problem about 10 years ago wen I was looking more into Sikhism, as have been raised quite secualr but always to believ in One God Created all: and all have the same God, I was not taken regularly to Sikh temples growing up, and mostly when I was it was for weddings and invites to peoples' akand paata. etc. which was more social obligation than anything else. 
   You can go out and find translated books, one paigh gave me a book called '3 prayers of the Sikh world' which prints what they call 'Roman Panjabi' in the book , ie, 'archaic' Panjabi which is Gurumukhi on the left page and on the facing both printed transliteration so you can attept to pronounce the Gurumukhi and the English translation underneath. The book contains and refers ofcourse to the 3 prayers Orthdox Sikhs would make/read every day. What I thought was particularly amzing was the fact that not only did the Gurumukhi lines all rhyme perfectly, they actually managed to make all of the English translation lines rhyme perfectly too.
   I don't recall publishing press and translators names off hand, but I'm sure you could get something similar to this.

   I personally have a problem fully prostrating to this book, [to bow your head in respect is one thing but ...]as if worshipping it, the way all Sikhs do when they enter the temple. I can only overlook this as an attempt to emulate the Indian Hindu custom of touching one's feet to show respect, as Sikhs do treat the book as if it is a living, breathing Guru.
 If you are from a Christian influenced upbringing, or Roman Cathlolic, Eastern or Greek Orthadox, then idol worshipping would be something you would have been bought up with anyway, because of their abnormal obsession with 'the Christ' and/or Virgin Mary, respectively. Muslims may not use figurative reresentations of their role model Muhammad, the way other religions do of theirs, but having seen the way some of the most learned sheiks in Islam talk and behave, it is as if they worship him too.


----------



## CaramelChocolate (Jul 17, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				Rani said:
			
		

> Hi,
> firstly, I would like to know how you just converted to the Sikh religion, because I was always told for someone from outside a Sikh community, it takes 10 years.


Superstition... although to be a true Sikh one must have taken amrit, which makes about 90% of self-confessed Sikhs today non-Sikh.



			
				Rani said:
			
		

> Secondly, the Guru Granth Sahib is in Gurumukhi, not Panjabi. 'Panjabi' ie, 'language of the five rivers' is spoken by most ethnic Sikhs today, or somewhat broken by those born and raised in Western countries, it is kind of like modern 'Gurumukhi' ie 'script of the Guru' but it is not the same as 'Gurumukhi'.


The Guru Granth Sahib is in Punjabi. The script of Punjabi is Gurumuki. Same thing.



			
				Rani said:
			
		

> I personally have a problem fully prostrating to this book, [to bow your head in respect is one thing but ...]as if worshipping it, the way all Sikhs do when they enter the temple. I can only overlook this as an attempt to emulate the Indian Hindu custom of touching one's feet to show respect, as Sikhs do treat the book as if it is a living, breathing Guru.


If you read Guru Granth Sahib it says you should worship your Guru but as a Guru, NOT as God and no Guru should ASK to be worshipped [of course that would be ego]. MATHA TEK is a Sikh thing. Muslims bow to Allah, Hindus bow to the MURTI of God... well infact, Hindu dandavat pranams are different for men and women are not simply bowing, the traditional way is to throw the body on the floor flat out and to touch the two temples [on the forehead] to the ground. This is done any odd number of times [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 etc.].


----------



## Lionchild (Jul 18, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

I again must stress the inportance of learning punjabi/gurmakhi, however, if you dont want to, then you dont. If you want to take the SGGS and prayers to the next level, it is recommended that you learn punjabi.


----------



## NamHariKaur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Thank you for the invitation to present my issues and concerns.

It appears that I did not reply to this- and I should have thanked you immediately for inviting me to discuss my concerns. As I become more comfortable here I will likely go into more detail about my concerns and questions. 

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene Oregon


----------



## Neutral Singh (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Baljeet veer is going to upload after Aman veer gives directions to him. I assume, this software is available on sikhitothemax.com , which shud be freely downloadable.


 
My apologies for acting so dumb in this matter. I am presently preaccupied with software version updated as announced in annoucements section. Once the whole process is over, i will do as desired by sangat. Please bear with me till such delay.

Cheers!!


----------



## CaramelChocolate (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> I again must stress the inportance of learning punjabi/gurmakhi, however, if you dont want to, then you dont. If you want to take the SGGS and prayers to the next level, it is recommended that you learn punjabi.


The punjabi language is no more supreme than any other language. Again I want to put my point across that Guru Granth Sahib's teachings transcend all language barriers and Gurumukhi/Punjabi is just the portal that s/he has decided to use. The meaning is the Guru NOT the language.


----------



## NamHariKaur (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Sat Nam, CaramelChocolate Ji;

_(What a lovely name!)_

I beg to differ with you. 
Are you not remembering the sound current?
I am no expert on this although I have direct experience with the transformative power of the sound current and I have read everything I can find on the subject. 
Most of what has been written comes from Harbhajan Singh Khalsa aka "Yogi Bhajan." While his teachings are about 10% of all of what I read and study and I am not a "devotee" of Yogi Bhajan, nonetheless he has revealed a great deal to us.

The sound current is said to have the capacity to perform transformations of the material world - including human consciousness and "brain functioning." Consider this quote from the Guru:

*As long as the mortal does not come to understand the mystery *
_*of the Shabad — Transcendendal Vibratory Sound — he will *_
_*continue to be tormented by the fear of death (sggs 1126). *_
_*But rare is that person, who, by becoming a Spiritual Being*_
_*(Gurmukh), understands this mystery (sggs 1139).*_

*Taken from: http://www.gurbani.org/webart179.htm*
 

Some of the basic notions are these: that all of the material manifestations of the creation consist of sets of vibrations that were created by God. Sanskrit is said to be the earliest or one of the earliest languages of humankind and consists of syllables which create some of the same vibrations that are manifest throughout the material world. 
Gurbani is said to be very close to Sanskrit. Buddhists have many mantras that are in Sanskrit for these same reasons - the power of the vibrations to change the way the material world is manifesting. 

Here is the first paragraph of a lengthy treatise on this subject by Yogi Bhajan:

_*Naad means "the essence of all sounds". All languages contain sounds which relate to one or more of the five elements of air, fire, water, earth or ether. Gurbani is a perfect combination and permutation of sounds relating to all the five elements in complete balance. When Guru Arjun Dev, the fifth Guru Nanak, compiled the Siri Guru Granth Sahib, in 1604, he put in only those Banis which were in Naad. These compositions are called Gurbani.*_

_*There are eighty-four meridian points on the upper palate of a human’s mouth. One can feel that upper palate with the tongue and experience its different surfaces. There are two rows of meridian points on the upper palate and on the gum behind the upper teeth. The tongue stimulates those meridian points, and they in turn stimulate the hypothalamus which makes the pineal gland radiate. When the pineal gland radiates, it creates an impulsation in the pituitary gland. When the pituitary gland gives impulsation, the entire glandular system secretes and a human being obtains bliss. *_

*...One who knows the Naad knows the Aad, the Primal Creativity....*

_*The whole language of Gurbani has the power to make a person divine, just in its recitation, if done correctly. One need not be concerned with the meaning for a change in consciousness. Bani has to be understood by the heart, not by the head. 

Taken from: http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/sikhism.nsf/d9c75ce4db27be328725639a0063aecc/66c81f913f9c651b872565b7007b33a7!OpenDocument

For me, from the beginning, which was a scant 16 months ago - March 2004 - listening to Gurbani had profound effects on my body and consciousness. The same Hukhams read in English immediately afterwards had little impact on me. I can truthfully testify that simply hearing Gurbani changed my life completely. I began a life of worship first by attending morning Sadhana with increasing frequency. I had many visions while listening to Gurbani, the most important of which was one which was auditory rather than visual and "suggested" that I say goodbye to life as I had known it and go with God. At the time I thought this meant that I was going to die. Although I did not want to die or leave this life, being 55 I had enough experience with saying "no" to God to know that I did not want to live without the Grace of God Blessing my life. I fell to my knees saying "I do not want to go, just take me." Tears were streaming down my face and I repeated this over and over. 


Then two months later after many visits to the ashram to hear kirtan and Hukhams, I quit my job, retiring three years earlier than expected, because "circumstances" made this both reasonable and possible and most of all this came after saying during that vision that I would give my life to God. My way of seeing this was and is that the Guru arranged for me to say goodbye to my career so that I could fully attend to my life of devotion. 



Since that time, over the next 14 months most of each day is occupied with first doing JapJi and Kundalinii yoga and an hour of chanting followed by Ardas and a Hukham. The rest of the day I am either doing seva - counseling others for free in spiritual and personal growth matters - or else I am studying Sikhism. (The career I retired from was teaching Physics at a junior college). I really have almost no secular life at this time. I have complete freedom to do what I want but I never go to the coast to walk the beach or go to films or engage in "entertainment." Such things seem to have lost most of their pull on me. The desires that used to torment me -desires to fall in love and have a partner - have vanished completely. Events which used to make me happy or bring me down only bring a smile or a frown but have little deep impact on me. My greatest Bliss - anand - is to meditate at the Ashram while Gurbani is chanted or chanting along with the Sanghat. My entire body vibrates to the Naad and my mental consciousness sometimes begins to vanish. 



I have most recently taught myself to read Gurmukhi, though still at the level of a 4 year old, sounding out each syllable first before pronouncing the whole word. I have done this so that eventually I can read from the Guru and experience Naad directly myself. 

 

All of these changes came about as a result of hearing Gurbani that I did not have any understanding of whatsoever. 


I will end by saying that my most transformative experience, the one described above happened while listening to a chant of the 28th pauri of JapJi by Snatam Kaur. Many months later, really a full year after it happened, I found that the following is said of the 28th pauri:

"The 28th pauri is the strongest permutation and combinations of words in the world. It unites you with God." 



When I read this a few months ago, I gasped, for that is exactly what it did to me. 
"Nanak Nadaree karamee daat" is the story of these changes in my life; By the merciful glance of God, I have been given gifts and Blessings.


nwnk ndrI krmI dWiq


Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene Oregon.*_


----------



## Arvind (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Nam Hari Kaur ji,

You are a great inspiration to us. Thanks for your presence here. *Waheguru*

Warm Regards, Arvind.


----------



## CaramelChocolate (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Nam Hari Kaur... Glad you like the name... I kinda agree with a lot you have to say and I do agree that it gives some affect on the person for some reason but I still think that no language can ever be considered no holier than another... so I guess we'll have to disagree.
And kinda moving slightly off topic, Yogi Bhajan... A lot of those who became Sikh due to him were because they wanted to be like him, converted then started learning [I am not saying ALL are insincere], and a lot of converts have realise that what he teaches is kinda a bit distant from the true teachings of Sikhi. I don't know that much about him to comment, but he has kinda done something to Sikhi... I can't put my finger on it, but there seems to be a removal of the khalsa warrior element... Take Snatam Kaur for example... she does BEAUTIFUL keertan but she seems to approach her faith in the more Hindu 'floaty' way... [not floaty in the sense of lack of faith]... Let us NOT forget warrior khalsa aspect of Sikhi and what the Gurus did for humanity... Look at what Guru Teg Bahadur did... I recently learned about this and when I think about it I just think DHAN DHAN GURU TEG BAHADUR JEE! Amazing that he sacrificed himself for humanity...


----------



## NamHariKaur (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Sat Nam Arvind!
Guru Ji's Blessings to you this day.
If I knew how to say this by means of a Gurbani quote I would do so -
It gives me joy to hear when anyone is elevated by anything the Guru does through me. 
I bow to the Formless One, Nirankar!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh

Sat Nam CaramelChocolate;
Are we now in need of the warrior aspect of Khalsa? Are we being persecuted or attacked? Or do you mean something else by the warrior aspect? 

I am not sure of the value of separtist thinking. It is divisive. Yes the 3HO sikhs have differences, as do we all from each other. And I see divisive thinking between Punjabi Sikhs that judge other Punjabi Sikhs for not following all Rehat.  As I see it for each of us, everything is only between us and the Guru. Judging is not for us to do, and while we can not help it being human,  a very useful lesson is to realize that almost anything we see outside ourselves that we do not appreciate - is a reflection of something within ourselves that we deny and do not appreciate. 

I myself do not appreciate YogiJi's style of teaching at all but I have not found any contradictions of his teachings with anything else I have studied. I also agree that many 3HO sikhs appear to follow YogiJi almost more than the Guru - but I say that it seems that way - I can not claim that this is true. 

As for Snatam Kaur, I know her personally - she lives here in Eugene and she is the greatest inspiration to me. She is very young, only 32, so she has things to learn about being tactful perhaps and perhaps how to better serve as an ambassador to those who are brought to the Guru through her chanting, but her own Sikh way of living is remarkably spiritual. I  have not met anyone else that can keep haumai at bay as she can. Her humility and service to the Guru in my opinion are unquestiionable. 

Please, I do not wish to debate anything with you. You and I must each do our best to understand and follow God's Will. That is all. 
GuruJi's Blessings to you, CaramelChocolate. 

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene Oregon


----------



## CaramelChocolate (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				NamHariKaur said:
			
		

> Are we now in need of the warrior aspect of Khalsa? Are we being persecuted or attacked? Or do you mean something else by the warrior aspect?


Yes we are or Guru Gobind Singh Ji wouldn't have created... the teachings of Sikhi are timeless therefore all aspects of khalsa are always going to be needed... Khalsa is about fighting oppression of innocents which is shown through the whole purpose of kirpaan.



			
				NamHariKaur said:
			
		

> Please, I do not wish to debate anything with you. You and I must each do our best to understand and follow God's Will. That is all.


The whole purpose of this forum is healthy debate which is what we are doing... and to be honest you started the debate [between us both] by replying to my comments... I am fine with that as I said before I understand and respect your view... please do not feel uncomfortable we are all here to learn from each other and respect each other... please forgive me if I have said anything out of line as it was not my intention.



			
				NamHariKaur said:
			
		

> GuruJi's Blessings to you, CaramelChocolate.


And to you... Bole so nihaal, Sat sri Akaal!


----------



## Errol harlin Beattie (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji ka Fateh

Hello, I am a student of Sikhism and attend my local Gurdwarra most Sundays. I have agree with you entirely that it is very difficult not understanding the teachings as a result  of not having a grasp of Punjabi. Despite the fact that I still attain spiritual inspiration and peace when I attend the Gurdwarra I am aware that I am missing out on valuable teachings becuse I do not understand Punjabi.

I have a massive collection of  Sikh related literature in English and I also have a full and complete translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib which I read every day.

However I still feel that not understanding Punjabi is a great barrier to me moving further in my aims to totally embrace Sikhism and develop a deeper understanding Of the treasure of teachings handed down to us by the Ten Gurus. But like you I shall continue to attend the Gurdwarra  and hope to develop my understanding through sourcing books and commentry by Sikh scholars in English whilst also trying to learn Punjabi as I progress.

Errol Harlin


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## NamHariKaur (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

*Sat Nam Khalsa_starr Ji;*

*Somehow I missed seeing yours and Arvind's posts to me here until today (july 19). My apologies to both of you for not replying sooner. *

*I agree with you completely. You can not learn anything if everything is done in punjabi/Gurbani. *

*I have no idea how Sikhism is being taught, and I am curious about it. Are there schools for Sikh children or do they learn only from their families and from others at the Gurdwara - all informally? I would love to hear from different people in different countries. How is Sikhism being taught around the world? *

*  In my community when I came along a year ago in April there was no formal education going on and no one was interested or had the time for doing any mentoring for individuals. *

*After several months I wrote an open letter to the community thanking those individuals who had taken a little time and taught me a chant or taken a short walk with me and answered a few questions. In that letter I also expressed my frustration at how difficult it had been for me to get help with my questions. Nearly everyone in this community has been in it for 20 years or was born into Sikh families. There are very few converts like me.  So I guess they have not had to deal with education. They send their own children to the Miri-Piri Academy in India for the most part.  And most of our community goes to the twice a year solstice events for various classes and workshops and for three days of white tantric yoga. That seems to be the way the adults get refreshed and re-invigorated. I can not afford to go to those events. *


*One response that the Community Council made to my letter was that a two-meetings-per-month class in Sikh Dharma was created. That was helpful, but by that time I had already learned most of what was presented in that class.  I attended anyway to be gracious, and because there were only two others that were new to the area that were attending. A few sessions were really good - Snatam Kaur did a session on the sound current that moved me deeply. (She lives here in Eugene - though she may move away next year - she has gotten engaged).  At the same time I have to say that those that put the class  together partly in response to my concerns  never asked me anything about what I might have wanted the class to include. As a retired teacher I found that to be rather lacking in foresight n their part. If you wish to meet someone's needs, it makes some sense to assess what those needs are. If it is a group you survey the group to determine what the needs are or conduct a focus group session with them.  But oh well, I still learned some things.*


*I have learned 90% of what I know from the web and from a few books. But that is not at all the way I wanted it to be. And this is in an English speaking community - so the difficulties I have faced have to do with people not having time or ineterest in teaching/sharing what they know - it is not even an issue of them not speaking English.*

*I changed part of your quoted post to boldface and red below because I fully agree with what you said and wanted to emphasize it. So all I am adding to that is that language differences are not the only problem sometimes in people getting an education in Sikhism.*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> Nam Hari Kaur ji...
> 
> I liked listening to kirtan and the granthi speaking in punjabi as well, however, i would get much more use out of it if i knew what they were talking about. .....
> ...I agree that every sikh should try to learn gurmakhi, and it should be encouraged for new sikhs if they want to take the SGGS and kirtan to the next level. *For beginners like me though, i want to learn the fundementals and teachings of sikhi, it should be available at a gurdwara - not just the interent.* The internet is not always the safest and best place to learn.
> ...


 
*YES YES and YES!*

*Thank you for posting your comments, *
*Khalsa_starr Ji.*

*Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene Oregon*


----------



## Admin (Jul 22, 2005)

Originally Posted by *Khalsa_Starr
*(some posts could not be ported over to new version, so had to be manually appended. accept our apologoes.)
Quote:
Ouoted Post by *NamHariKaur*
_
*I have no idea how Sikhism is being taught, and I am curious about it. *_



I have wondered about this myself. How can the average person who wants to learn about sikhi? This is another issue as well, many families teach their young on the basics of sikhi (more and more parents don't anymore). However, when an outside person wants to learn about sikhi, he/she has to learn through [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhismbooks/sikhismbooks.html"]books[/URL] and internet (both can not always be right).

So perhaps, this is another area that can be worked on.

BTW, the other section of your post was good as well.


----------



## Admin (Jul 22, 2005)

Originally Posted by *Caramel Chocholate
*(_some posts could not be ported over to new version, so had to be manually appended. accept our apologoes._)

Guys... while on this topic, I complained to a Gurudwara by email... well when you read it and then the response it will make sense.

*My email
*Sat Sri Akaal,
Sir, sorry for sending this email to you but there are no other emails displayed on the website that I can express my concern on this issue. I am an English person who comes Gurudwara sahib now and then, and obviously I come with the knowledge that Guruji's teachings are not for [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/search/forum/38-1.html"]Sikhs[/URL], but for humanity, borderless... Since the majority of this country speaks English, would it not be a good idea to translate everything that goes on in the Gurudwara? I know you have screens up but I have never seen them in use [I have only been during [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/livekirtan/livekirtan.html"]kirtan[/URL] time, as I have to travel to your Gurudwara by train]. I recently found out that there is a Singh Sabha Gurudwara near me [Barking]... I do know a little about this movement and from what I have seen Singh Sabha is definately the best type of Gurudwara to go to [no idols, no outside influences]... So my question is, to allow many more people to feel the glory of Gurubani, why not translate everything, including [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/livekirtan/livekirtan.html"]kirtan[/URL]? As much as I LOVE coming to Gurudwara I often do not spend much time in there as I get bored due to not understanding what is going on... I only obviously understand the basic words [such as ik ongkaar, sat naam, waheguru, akaal etc.]... I would be hugely grateful if you could forward this message onto the respective party and I am even willing to come and discuss the issue at the Gurudwara with whoever.

Thanks once again,

John


*The response
*Sat Sri Akaal John,
We at the Gurdwara totally agree with you! And have actually started a training program (we have currently had 18+ people go through it) where we teach them how to use the screens and how to do the translations, So far we have managed to usually get screen cover on Saturdays and Sundays and we are currently trying to train all the gianis on how to use the screens so that eventually any event at the gurdwara can be covered, please do try and come on a Sunday and you will see that even [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/livekirtan/livekirtan.html"]kirtan[/URL] gets translated on the screens……an important point here is that even when our gurus went on their journeys, they always tried to learn the local language so that the locals would be able to understand, and we need to do the same, also if you are interested in getting the training then please let me know and I will get you in touch with the guys doing the training, that way you can also help as any one who is certified by us ( note that we have to certify as we really need to protect all the equipment), can bring up the screens and start translating on them. Once again you have made some very valid points that are in our hearts too, with Waheguru’s kirpa we will be able to complete this mission of having every program translated to English for everyone.

Sat Sri Akaal


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## Admin (Jul 22, 2005)

Originally Posted by* Arvind
*(_some posts could not be ported over to new version, so had to be manually appended. accept our apologoes._)

Dear John,

I am very happy with ur initiative. On top of that, the response you got. Those people have acted very responisbly by providing examples of spreading message in local language. I am impressed by the expanding initiative addressing the concern. 

Regards.


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## Admin (Jul 22, 2005)

Originally Posted by* NamHariKaur
*(_some posts could not be ported over to new version, so had to be manually appended. accept our apologoes._)


Sat Nam, CaramelChocolate, (John);

It is wonderful that you spoke directly to the [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/search/forum/38-1.html"]Sikhs[/URL] at the Gurdwara. Direct action is often the best approach. And you did it in a gracious way without being critical or negative. You have role-modelled for us all!
Their response is also very encouraging to read. 
Wahe Guru!

Nam Hari Kaur


----------



## Admin (Jul 22, 2005)

Originally Posted by* Caramel Chocholate
*(_some posts could not be ported over to new version, so had to be manually appended. accept our apologoes._)

Arvind, NamHariKaur ji, I am over the moon about the response... I am tempted to take him up on his offer about learning how to use the equipment and since I am on my summer holidays I think I will do there at some point [have tot take the train you see]... and help out with the whole thing..! Will let you know of any progress... Waheguru Waheguru the message of Shri [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurugranthsahib/gurugranthsahib.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib Jee maybe extending further


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## Admin (Jul 22, 2005)

Originally Posted by* Khalsa_Starr
*(_some posts could not be ported over to new version, so had to be manually appended. accept our apologoes._)

CaramelChocolate, i loved your email and how you expressed your concerns in a serious, yet well said way. I will see if i can send an e-mail to the president (of the temple) over here. Provided, he is not "busy" So far, i am having little success in cathing his attention. When i do phone him up and talk to him, he doesnt keep his word on the dates he sets! Very annoying, but i will try other ways.

So were do i get the software for power point presentations? I have MS powerpoint? Will taht be a good start?


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## NamHariKaur (Jul 23, 2005)

*Gurbani / English Dictionary*

Sat Nam;
I am seeking a Gurbani/English dictionary to purchase.
I would like something that can be taken around easily, although that is 2nd to having anything at all.
My interest in more in words used in SGGS than in modern Punjabi. 

There are a few websites that translate one word at a time or that have a glossary but all those I have found are far too limited. 

Thank you!
Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene Oregon


----------



## Lionchild (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Gurbani / English Dictionary*

:hmm: what happenbed to my posts? Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Somewhere on forums, I had read that a few gurudwaras have these kind of equipments, which facilitate reading in English on screens, of what is being said by Granthi ji. Anyone who has seen that kind of gurudwara may shed more information abt this.


 
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI Fateh.

Almost ALL major Gurdwaras in MALAYSIA have Projection Screens with the SHABAD GURU Software running which screens the Shabad the raagis are singing, the Hukmanam being taken and so forth.  The screen carries Original GURBANI...and the ENGLISH Translation...and transliteration.

This SHABAD GURU CD and two other CDs of MP3 Of entire Guru Granth Ji is available FREE OF COST from Sikh Naujawan Sabha Malaysia, Kartar  AT Streamyx.com. ( Replace AT with @ and remove all spaces)

THis CD is so far the BEST as far as Translation goes.  I have just sent 20 sets to Australian gurdwaras.

Jarnail Singh Gyani Arshi.


----------



## Admin (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Gurbani / English Dictionary*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> :hmm: what happenbed to my posts? Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!


Nothing happend to your posts... i had to manually restore some of the posts due to upgradation process... no posts were  lost...  Just checkout above they are still there but under my username. 

Regards


----------



## m1stikalbo1 (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

I totally agree with you guys about the language barrier. But living here in the Greater Toronto Area I have realized that practicing Sikhi has to be a two way stream. We need to do something and so do the Gurudwaras. I personally learned to read and write punjabi four years ago. And I find that the Gurudwaras are working on the language barrier too! Now pretty much all the well established Gurudwaras (which have been around for quite some time) provide english translations for shabads and gurbani over a projector on a projector screens. This has happened recently but this has an effect. Now when I go to the gurudwara ... I actually sit there for more than 10 minutes bcoz I understand what they are saying. 

Also can someone link me to the yahoo groups... I haven't gone through all the replies to see if someone has shared it before.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

There is a FREE Three CD SET called the SHABAD GURU..and it is Produced by the Sikh naujawan Sabha Malaysia.

One CD is MP# files of entire Guru Granth Ji sahib Paath recitation.
One CD is called Shabad Guru Software...This is a specially developed Search Engine for Instant location of any TUK/Shabad in Guur Granth Ji Sahib. The Projection Screen shows Original Gurbani as in Guru Granth Ji, a TRANSLATION in Contemporary ENGLISH..and Romanised Translitertaion.

The Most famous Banis..nitnem, Ardass, Andnd sahib Sukhmani Sahib japji sahib , barah mah, Nauvenh Mahalle de sloks etc are one click available.

Thsi software is installed on the Desktop of any Windows Computer...and is very suitable for SCREENING in Gurdawra halls for the sangat. It takes only a moment to locate the Shabad the Rragis are singing, or the Hukmanama the Granthi Ji is taking...and the snagat can take part.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

I have uploaded the software on MEGAUPLOAD.com. Here is the link to download the Shabad Guru Explorer http://www.megaupload.com/?d=36RXMS7E

Its approx 75MB


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## Lee (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Heh Khalsa Starr, Count me in, I converted about 4-5 years ago, and yet every Gurdwara I go to suffers from the same problems. At the very least there should be Gurbani/Punjabi lessons. Cheers, lee.


----------



## Lionchild (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Lee said:
			
		

> Heh Khalsa Starr, Count me in, I converted about 4-5 years ago, and yet every Gurdwara I go to suffers from the same problems. At the very least there should be Gurbani/Punjabi lessons. Cheers, lee.


 
Is it just me? It seems as if other religions are way ahead of us when it comes to these issue.:hmm:  What is your idea on this thought?


----------



## Lee (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> Is it just me? It seems as if other religions are way ahead of us when it comes to these issue.:hmm:  What is your idea on this thought?



My thoughts are probably not going to be very popular I'm afraid.  It may be differant where you are but it has been my experiance here in London, UK, that there is an awful lot of casteism in Gurdawaras here.  Even those Gurdwara's that are not run on a caste bias, are run and managed by self important people who pay lip service to Sikhi rather than being run by proper Gursikhs.

Now it may be that a lot of Sikhs are not as up on their Sikhi as they think, heh I know that Sikhi as a whole is not as strong as we like to think.

Every time I hear bad mouthing by Sikhs to other Sikhs about cut hair, or eating meat etc... I think what is more important, that you point out bad Sikhi, or that you concentrate on your own Sikhi?

Myself I have the long hair, and the beard, yet I know I'm still a bad Sikh, but it is with Guru's help, and the Sadh Sangat's help, and by Gods will that I shall or shall not make it.

It seems to me that we Sikhs should stop tyelling each other what bad Sikhs we are, and start to help each other be better Sikhs.

As I say, please let me know if I have this wrong, but I was taught that every Sikh should strive to be Khalsa, and that all Khalsa have to keep the 5 K's?  So if I'm not Khalsa then there is no shame in not keeping the 5 K's.

Okay yes I do know that by keeping the outward apperance it may be easy to keep the inward, but ask your sleves this.  How many non Khalsa Sikhs do you know, that keep the 5 k's yet are big headed about it all?

Me I know loads.

Heh anyway sorry for the waffle, but you did ask.  In short my thoughts are Guru Ji started Sikhi in part to move humanity away from meaningless dogma and ritual, now I see that almost every where I look at Gurdwara, and in the Sikhs I meet.  Lets stop this, and get back to basics.

Cheers,

lee.


----------



## Arvind (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



> Now it may be that a lot of Sikhs are not as up on their Sikhi as they think, heh I know that Sikhi as a whole is not as strong as we like to think.


Dear Lee,

I liked reading your post, which has addressed grave concerns. Deep thinking reveals that sikhism has reduced to just another religion, instead of being 'Akaal Purakh ki Fauj'

The unfortunate divisions, you mentioned are a big blot. With Sikhs realizing actual values of Sikhi, things are bound to change.

Keep coming please. Your suggestions might make a headway for another person, who is also thinking in the same way.

Regards.


----------



## Lionchild (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Lee said:
			
		

> ...that there is an awful lot of casteism in Gurdawaras here. Even those Gurdwara's that are not run on a caste bias, are run and managed by self important people who pay lip service to Sikhi rather than being run by proper Gursikhs.


 
Casteism in gurdwara's? That's a first time hearing that! OMG What are the signs that this is happeing? I have never heard of this before? Sounds like some hindu stuff is getting into sikh in some places.



			
				Lee said:
			
		

> Every time I hear bad mouthing by Sikhs to other Sikhs about cut hair, or eating meat etc... I think what is more important, that you point out bad Sikhi, or that you concentrate on your own Sikhi?...
> ...It seems to me that we Sikhs should stop tyelling each other what bad Sikhs we are, and start to help each other be better Sikhs...


 
Yes your concerns are ever true, we should stop trying to look at always the bad in ourselves. At the same time, we also have to zero in on areas that need attention and try to solve the problem instead of fixing something that is not broken. We must also look at ourselves and make sure we are "good" before trying to tell others what could be suggested.



			
				Lee said:
			
		

> Heh anyway sorry for the waffle, but you did ask. In short my thoughts are Guru Ji started Sikhi in part to move humanity away from meaningless dogma and ritual, now I see that almost every where I look at Gurdwara, and in the Sikhs I meet. Lets stop this, and get back to basics.


 
First step in solving a problem is to see what areas need attention and then act. Many organizations today act before looking at the consequences and later find out what really happens, by then the problem has only got worse.

Part of the "Sikhs for Change" group will deal with real life solutionas and later on, we can work out how to put some of these ideas into reality.

-Khalsa Starr


----------



## Arvind (Aug 2, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Casteism in Gurudwara means - Gurudwaras labelled as per various sects... a common example being Ramgarhia Gurudwara. I have observed scenarios where ppl who make their own gurudwaras just for hunger of management power, or sometimes stand differs on some particular issue. I feel so sad when I hear in local Punjabi community when they say - this gurudwara is for Taxi drivers, other for educated people, third one for jatts.. etc etc... Sad affair of casteism creeped in Sikhi. On top of that, people supporting it with pride!

Guru Sahib pulled us out of these divisions of casteism, racism... and majority of us seem to have dived into same deep well again! Total contradiction of preaching and practicing.


----------



## Lionchild (Aug 2, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Guru Sahib pulled us out of these divisions of casteism, racism... and majority of us seem to have dived into same deep well again! Total contradiction of preaching and practicing.



I wonder  how they would react if someone pointed out to them that Guru Nanak doesnt approve of any type of caste system?

Some ppl just won't listen :}


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## Arvind (Aug 2, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Anyone who doesnt want to listen is their problem. Anyone who is willing to listen, but doesnt have correct information, is the best candidate to spread the work with. SO, without any excitement, hatred or anger, just keep on doing your work... interested people will keep on joining you and help spread out the msg.


----------



## Lee (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Anyone who doesnt want to listen is their problem. Anyone who is willing to listen, but doesnt have correct information, is the best candidate to spread the work with. SO, without any excitement, hatred or anger, just keep on doing your work... interested people will keep on joining you and help spread out the msg.



Arvind Ji,

I feel you have the truth of it there, I have been reading ovber the past couple of days, heh brushing up on my Sikhi so to speak.  What I have come to realise is that Sikhi is a hard, hard way.  It is a disciplined life that we must lead.  There are many Sikhs, but not many Gursikhs, so really keep pluging away at it, be the best Sikh you can be, and others of the same ilk, will find you then you'll find that the company of the holy comes.

Cheers,

Lee.


----------



## Arvind (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Dear Lee,

Thanks for your kind words.

I strongly believe that:
1. When one becomes an able student, Guru Himself comes forward to find that disciple and teach more.
2. Be more concerned about how I myself can become a Sikh. With Guru's Kirpa, someday I too will get company of blessed souls. Right now, SPN forum is the saadh sangat, with whom I share my feelings with, and learn from.

Bhull Chukk Maaf.


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## Lionchild (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Anyone who doesnt want to listen is their problem. Anyone who is willing to listen, but doesnt have correct information, is the best candidate to spread the work with. SO, without any excitement, hatred or anger, just keep on doing your work... interested people will keep on joining you and help spread out the msg.



So true, you cant change everyone! Only ppl who are interested will join a cause.

How to spread the msg...


----------



## Arvind (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Khalsa_starr said:
			
		

> How to spread the msg...


Representation by ourselves through own thoughts and importantly actions. By not waiting for someone to do something for you.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*



			
				Arvind said:
			
		

> Representation by ourselves through own thoughts and importantly actions. By not waiting for someone to do something for you.


 
Agree completley arvind Ji.

Leadership by EXAMPLE..is the way to go.

jarnail Singh Gyani


----------



## Amarpal (Aug 11, 2005)

*Re: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs*

Dear Khalsa Ji,

When ever we enter a new domain we experience such barriers. Keep in mind that when we were born we couldnot communicate at all. We all are great learners, each one of us had over come this barrier. Keep making efforts

With love and respect for all

Amarpal Singh


----------



## beauty (Dec 6, 2005)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Hi,
My native language is English and I also would like to understand Punjabi. Seems a beautiful language - there's an adequate (so it seems to me) English translation of Sri Guru Granth @ 
http://www.sikhs.org/english/rahiras#rahiras
Page 1 
[Rahiras] [Sohila]
It's 1420 pages long.  On a personally distressing note, I see some similarities to the Koran and to the Bible.  Still Sikh perspective, particularly Guru Nanak, is very interesting to me.  Seems many religions become obstacles to personal communication with Universal/Cosmic Spirit/Consciousness.  I don't want a religion based on going to service regularly, which seems like a ritual in and of itself!  Christians do this all the time at their Sunday services - it's all social and mental and they seldom give but lip service to actualizing their potential to become like their saviour Jesus.  No doubt, I'll get in trouble for speaking plainly but Hypocrites comprise the #1 religion on this planet.  Hypocrites are in every religious congregation.  Personally, I want enlightenment and I am prepared to work for it and/or realize it.  That's why I am attracted to Sikh "religion".   On a practical note, regarding language barriers: perhaps some of the Punjabi speakers could help teach others the Punjabi language.  I know that Chinese immigrants often establish Chinese language/culture schools for their children so they will keep their culture.  Do Sikhs really care whether their gurudwaras grow to include native English speakers, Spanish speakers, etc.?  Personally, I was thinking of posting a notice expressing an interest in obtaining a tutor either on an individual basis or in a group setting at the gurudwara I sometimes visit.  Today, I found someone at work who speaks Punjabi so I may be able to practice with her.  A tutor or teacher is much better though.  - Sat Naam


----------



## Arvind (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Your efforts are commendable... beauty ji 

Waheguru Ang Sang


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## NamHariKaur (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

*Beauty;*

*Welcome to the forum and welcome to the plight of English speaking Bhagatees of the Guru's. (devoted ones). *

*If you do not get help from people, then consider getting the word-by-word translation of JapJi available from **www.a-healingways.com** for $25 and begin with that, as I did. You might be able to get a copy of it from someone at your Gurdwara. Ours had copies available to borrow and I worked from that. *


*I have moved beyond that after some months and at some other Sikh forum somewhere, (probably **www.sikhnet.com** forum),  found a recommendation for some books which I am now using to continue teaching myself the language. *

*"The Sacred Language of the Sikh Gurus" by Christopher Shackle **(reprinted 1999 Heritage Publishers)*
*and *
*"Glossary of Guru Naanak" by Shackle (same author)*


*These are both really fine books. I googled them and got used copies in excellent condition at not much cost - maybe $30 for the pair? - from New Delhi, India.*

*I found after a while with the JapJi that I was getting hobbled by the different verb tenses and various grammatical cases and realized that understanding a little bit of grammar would go a long way. That has indeed proven to be the case! Having worked through eight chapters of the Gurmukhi grammar I now find that nearly every English translation you find for any Gurbani will have errors in it;  especially errors due to not recognizing whether a pronoun is the subject of a sentence or the object of the verb. The difference can be as big as "They look but do not see"  compared to "The (merciful)Glance (of God) does not come to them." *
*(From JapJi 30th Pauri: "...Onaa nadar na aavai,...")*

*Out of five translations of that line, only one translates correctly "Onaa" (they or them in the sense of TO them), which is the so-called "oblique" case, meaning it is the object of the verb rather than the subject of the sentence.*

*I had to buy a little English grammar book to help me recognize some of the grammatical terms, "gerund" "transitive case" and such things as that, but really Shackle does a nice job with examples so that you get the idea without having to know the formal grammatical names of parts of speech. *


*The other thing I really like about these two books is that I am learning a lot more vocabulary than I was by studying JapJi alone. I will say that JapJi did teach me a lot of vocabulary for quite a while, until the variety of forms of verbs and nouns and adjectives began to bewilder me. The first book I listed has vocabulary in each chapter and then gives about 20 lines to translate using almost exclusively the words and grammar concepts introduced in that chapter. *

*The biggest problem I am having is that there are no answers given to the translation exercises. When you really "get" one, you pretty much know you are right, but I find myself struggling with about 1/3 of them in each chapter. Correct translations would be instructive. I am thinking of finding someone that can provide me with that much.*

*Sorry if I am overwhelming you with all this. I realize you might not be the least bit ready to hear all this yet. It is just that I have done a lot of this work since posting here last and had a lot I have been wanting to share in this "Language barrier" thread  and you kin of got me started about it.*

*I would love to hear about how Sikhism came to be on your path. That should probably be posted in the "new people introduction" section though. I find people's stories very inspirational. *

*Wahe Guru!*
*Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, Oregon*


----------



## Arvind (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

NamHari Kaur ji,

I believe, the information you provided is going to be very useful for beginners.

Thanks for sharing. 

Regards, Arvind.


----------



## Lionchild (Feb 23, 2006)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

So many responses, I like most of them. I think it’s time to create a solutions thread, seeing how we know what is possible. I will create in the next few days.  

-Bindy Bains
(Formerly Khalsa Starr)


----------



## aka_jeeva_visrai_mar_jao (Oct 24, 2006)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

wjkk wjkf
im desperate i need the sikhitothemax software
can anyone pleaseeeee tell me where to get it???
wjkk wjkf


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## kaur-1 (Oct 24, 2006)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



aka_jeeva_visrai_mar_jao said:


> wjkk wjkf
> im desperate i need the sikhitothemax software
> can anyone pleaseeeee tell me where to get it???
> wjkk wjkf



I am guessing:- download from SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge for desktop version otherwise contact them.?


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## aka_jeeva_visrai_mar_jao (Oct 24, 2006)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

wjkk wjkf
the desktop version leads to some construction page so i guess i could contact then
thx
wjkk wjkf


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## Maskeen (Oct 27, 2006)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Me and friends are working on a site for new comers to sikhi/non sikhs curious about our faith.  The inspiration was numerous posts on beliefnet.com willing to learn more about sikhi but not finding a place to start.

 We also have some recorded English katahas - and could use more - what do you guys think.


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## CaliforniaSeeker (Oct 27, 2006)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

English-language katha - hurray! If you're able to put up transcriptions as well, that would be wonderful. When text versions of katha or other articles are available, I like being able to print out a copy and tuck it inside my journal to take it with me. Then if I have 10 minutes free, I can spend it reading katha and considering gurbani, rather than doing yet another sudoku puzzle.


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## HannahBanana (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*



Lionchild said:


> This is youth side of the possible language barrier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Count me in! If you don't mind. I'll probably be the youngest person in your group 

This is something I am also afraid of. I want to visit a Gurdwara at some point (though I don't know if there is one in Florida) and I keep being told I have to learn Punjabi. I wouldn't mind learning it, but until then I want to be able to understand what is being said.


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## ANN KAUR (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*

I have been reading about the new convert's difficulties as they relate to the language.  I have discovered sikhism via itnernet adn books after studying many, many religions and scriptures both East and West. I am convinced that my mind has been Sikh for all my life, when I read and learn. But like many of you, I only speak English (for now....I have plans to learn Punjab, Hindi....etc)...It is not just the language barrier.  I feel a need to be babtised and join Khalsa and live the rest of my days serving humanity while followig Guru's teaching...but when I go to the Gudwara, I am not greeted.  There are no classes for adults.  I cannot find a way to be accepted by the people who embrace the very Path...To them I am a stranger. They do not know why I am there.  They are not being unkind.  They do not know, and this is becuae we are not talking.  I believe the the Indian community does not realize how many of us would want to join this path if the doors were open. So, I go to the Gudwara, I sit and listen to Kirtan. I am blessed to have the words on a screen in English.  But no one knows that I want to be babtised and we have no dialogue.  What should I do?  I am a Claifornia USA native, attending a Gudwara right in the middle of California.  I am the only American there. I understnad why it would not occur to anyone there what might be in my heart.  So, how do I connect?


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## dalsingh (May 8, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Ann Kaur

Don't despair about the language issue. Even people from Panjabi backgrounds (like myself) are still making efforts to understand Gurbani despite being able to speak modern Panjabi fluently (I grew up in the U.K.) 

Take your time and let your knowledge grow steadily. 

All the best.


----------



## Lionchild (May 8, 2007)

*Re: Language Barrier for new sikhs*



ANN KAUR said:


> ...But like many of you, I only speak English (for now....I have plans to learn Punjab, Hindi....etc)...It is not just the language barrier.  I feel a need to be babtised and join Khalsa and live the rest of my days serving humanity while followig Guru's teaching...but when I go to the Gudwara, I am not greeted...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ANN KAUR (May 8, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

OK, that makes sense,  But another issue, is that i am not able to connect with anyone at the Gudwara.  Most of the people there speak English, although they naturally converse in thier "native" toungue.  I am having difficulty meeting people so that I can learn and grow steadily.  I am about to giveup, actually. But, then I am left here, where I am....I have a nice life...I should be content....but I wanted to grow on the Sikh Path.  It kind of feels like a closed system.


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## kaur-1 (May 8, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



ANN KAUR said:


> OK, that makes sense,  But another issue, is that i am not able to connect with anyone at the Gudwara.  Most of the people there speak English, although they naturally converse in thier "native" toungue.  I am having difficulty meeting people so that I can learn and grow steadily.  I am about to giveup, actually. But, then I am left here, where I am....I have a nice life...I should be content....but I wanted to grow on the Sikh Path.  It kind of feels like a closed system.



Dear Ann Kaur,

FYI the originator of this thread has turned his back on the True Guru - Shabad Guru and joined another religion. 

Have you ask anyone in the Gurdwara if they hold any classes. Ask about Sikhi camps or search on the net for information on Sikhi camps held nearby or classes in other Gurdwara's.

As for keeping Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, do not until you know how to and what prayers need to be recited everyday without fail and the respect needed for keeping Guru ji at home.

Do you have any links for online Sri Guru Granth sahib ji.? 

For starters, read this online book slowly. Sikhism Based on Gurbani - Home
Look up information on sikhiwiki or other links you might already have otherwise pm me with what you need.

Start reading Jap ji sahib section in this forum. Download the mp3's from .:: UNITED SIKHS ::. to help you when you are reciting Japji sahib.

Its important to read Gurbani.  Books help but reading, listening, contemplating and then following Gurbani is more important.  

Pm me please if you need further help.


----------



## kds1980 (May 8, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



ANN KAUR said:


> OK, that makes sense,  But another issue, is that i am not able to connect with anyone at the Gudwara.  Most of the people there speak English, although they naturally converse in thier "native" toungue.  I am having difficulty meeting people so that I can learn and grow steadily.  I am about to giveup, actually. But, then I am left here, where I am....I have a nice life...I should be content....but I wanted to grow on the Sikh Path.  It kind of feels like a closed system.



dear ann kaur ji
sat sri akal
if you want to grow on sikh path then best way is
internet.start meditating on the name "waheguru"
and then  start learning mool mantar
sikhi is a relation between guru and sikh don't expectanything from others

for help from sikhs from california i advise you to join
sikh community sites like http://www.sikhportal.com/
or you can join join sikh groups on orkut,yahoo,facebook,msn. .i am sure you will find many sikhs from your place which are willing to help you


----------



## Lionchild (May 9, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



ANN KAUR said:


> OK, that makes sense,  But another issue, is that i am not able to connect with anyone at the Gudwara.  Most of the people there speak English, although they naturally converse in thier "native" toungue.  I am having difficulty meeting people so that I can learn and grow steadily.  I am about to giveup, actually. But, then I am left here, where I am....I have a nice life...I should be content....but I wanted to grow on the Sikh Path.  It kind of feels like a closed system.



Yeah, the best way to deal with this is by just try to make small talk with people there and also get to know the the people who run the temple. I found out that was the best way to get to know people, mind you every person has a different way :wink: 

And yes, I am Baha'i now, thought i still have some knowledge of the community and how it works to some degree. As for knowledge on that way of life... that is really up to you how that is done.

Best of wishes on your path!


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## ANN KAUR (May 9, 2007)

Kaur-1

HANK YOU. You don't know how much your response means to me. I have asked about classes, and they do not have any for adults. However, I will do exactly as you are instructing me and I will look for a camp.

Please tell me more about yourself. I have spoken with men in the religion, but am unconfortable bothering them with all my questions, and being a woman, I find the need to "talk" to other women in order to continue to learn and grow stong on the Path with integrity. I noticed your user name is Kaur-1, so I am imaging that you are female. 

Again, thank you very, very much for your guidance. I am a sincere seeker. I will look at the website that you recommended right now.

Thank you so much. I will take your advice to heart. I will learn more about my own relationship between myself and Guru. You are very kind.


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## Dimitri (Jun 4, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

I encourage u to study whatever comes ur way. any religion text etc. Sikh - means to learn right. But u hv to ask urself the question what is the end goal..is it to make friends, social groups ect. to read Guru Granth sahebji its very easy these days..its all on the net many discussions etc are also available. 

might sound bit harsh..but ppl who complain abt i wasn't greeted, couldn't make frns at the gurudwara need to just get a life rather then religion!


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## Archived_Member1 (Oct 10, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

gurfateh ann...  don't worry if they don't have classes for adults, sit in with the kids!  it's helped me.   i'm also a convert, and i'm also trying to learn gurmukhi and punjabi.  

i'm lucky in that Uncle ji who is the sevadar at my gurdwara tries to translate everything into english as he goes...  we have a multi-cultural sangat, some hindus, some punjabi sikhs, and me, the american sikh.  

but i've met a lot of american born punjabi sikhs who also do not understand punjabi well, so it's not just us.   i don't think it's inappropriate to ask for translations of the hukamnama, etc.

also, check out Singhbrothers - Publisher, BookSeller, Exporter, Quality Printer they have nitnem gutkas in english and roman transliteration...  it's important not only to understand the prayers, but to speak them in the language they were written in.  i've found that by doing my daily nitnem in punjabi i have learned a lot more than i have from classes.  

also check out the "gurbani dictionary": http://www.singhsabha.com/Gurbaani%20Dictionary.htm
and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji online in english and transliteration:
http://www.srigranth.org

let me know if there's anything i can do to encourage you. 

where are you located?


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Oct 10, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

oh, one more thing...  be careful of talking to the men at gurdwara too much if you're there alone...  unfortunately some people will misinterperate this.  see if you can find a woman in the sangat you can ask questions of...  i recommend talking to college age Kaurs if possible, as younger sikhs seem really excited and open to helping us novices out.


----------



## stupidjassi (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*



Lionchild said:


> This is youth side of the possible language barrier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are abs right lionchild. there is more going on in sikh that you so far discovered. I am also trying to do something for my panth but so far, no support . There are still some old people who are incharge of gurudwara and they actually are NOT sikh. In some countries it is in worse shape.
But do not lose hope, we are the youth and we have to do it. I was planning to make a website and group would be good idea also.
By the way where do you live?

stupidjassi


----------



## Sherab (Dec 7, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



kelly_kaur said:


> oh, one more thing...  be careful of talking to the men at gurdwara too much if you're there alone...  unfortunately some people will misinterperate this.  see if you can find a woman in the sangat you can ask questions of...  i recommend talking to college age Kaurs if possible, as younger sikhs seem really excited and open to helping us novices out.


I am also willing to help her, though i do not know much myself...


SSA,
Surinderjit Singh


----------



## kanwal295 (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Dear Khalsa Starr
Thank you for sharing your predicaments and the shortcomings of the Sikh Panth. You have valid views. I agree that the Guru Granth Sahib imparts its full meaning and understanding when read in Punjabi as there are many words that do not have an equivalent in English. But it takes time to learn Gurmukhi and understand Gurbani's level of Gurmukhi. Yet I also agree with your sentiments for not only the newbies like you mentioned but also for the so called born into Sikh Faith who may know Gurmukhi yet do not understand Gurbani. In a couple of the Gurdwaras here in Auckland, New Zealand, we have a laptop and digital projector installed and the Shabads are instantly downloaded from websites while the raagi is singing and when the Hukamnama is read so that they can be understood better. There is no reason why this cannot be done in all the gurdwaras and put up notices in English. One lament that I have is that our raagis and granthis should have a mandatory course in English especially if they are serving communities overseas. The Sikh Panth has a long way to go to have on the spot literature available in English about Sikhism for the curious and unknowledgeable about Sikhism. Gurdwaras must also organise Gurbani study groups rather than leave this to the few people who are interested to learn more. You are right ...Gurdwara is a place to learn and be illumined for you have come to the Guru. Don't lose heart my brother but keep hammering at the Gurdwara committees to provide state of the art service.
Waheguru bless you.
Kanwal Jit Singh


----------



## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 4, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

the best way to overcome this is find yourself a copy of SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI with English,punjabi and gurmukhi that way you will get the best of both worlds at first you will only read the english part only but like me a time willl come when you will start to read the punjabi as with as the english great for language skills and understanding our Guru's teachings and our beliefs


----------



## kanwal295 (Feb 4, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh.
These days there are various websites that actually have Gurmukhi, Hindi, Romanised and English translation on the same page and therefore has become a great read. Many years ago these were not available except for scarcely available translations. People should make the most of it now and become knowledgeable in Gurbani. Once you take up Simran practice and in time you will get the inner guidance as well, for to understand Gurbani one needs spiritual acumen too.
Gur fateh
Kanwal Jit Singh


----------



## Amrik Singh (Feb 4, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Gurfateh!
  I know what you are speaking about !
Myself I am  understand little Punjabi and speak even less so I relie on  translations .It is not a problem do not forget that many Gurbanis of Sry Guru Granth Sahib are also difficult to understand for punjabi without translation in modern Punjabi and most of the Dassam Granth is not even in Punjabi.
So do like me: lissen Kirtan ,let the state of mind manifest in the Sangat touch your heart and read translations and internet many sites in english and make some seva when some body is speaking to long.


----------



## Tomash (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Hello everybody,

Iam interested in sikhism for two years and few months ago Ive started to learn punjabi. Now Ive just finished an introductory book. Ate Mera kitab pujke chhota hai . Id like to ask you a two questions, because in my city I dont know any sikh very well, and not much of them live here. Id like to know, if I learn presentdays punjabi, whether I will be able to understand Adi Granth. And my second question is, whether you could recommend me some self-study book. Ive read some on Amazon.com, but all of them had bad comments.
Thank you for any advice, which would be able to get over this language obstacle.

greetings from Prague


----------



## NamHariKaur (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Sat Naam  Tomash;

I highly recommend Christopher Shackle's "The Sacred Language of the Sikh Guru's." This is probably the best thing available if Punjabi is not your native tongue. Indeed I don't think there is anything else comparable in English.  This is essentially the grammar (and a lot of vocabulary) of  the Guru's Gurbani.  I suppose if you can read and comprehend modern Punjabi well enough there might be better books in that language for studying the 300 to 500 year old version in which the Guru's wrote. 

The same author also complied a "Glossary of Guru Naanak" which I have found to be wonderfully helpful as well. Up through the 5th Guru, the vocabulary did not change terribly much, whereas Guru Gobind Singh's writing contain many many more words incorporated by his time. 

I should add that these books have become expensive. I bought the glossary for $20 or $25 and the Grammar Language book for $30 in 2005 and one year later could not get the Language book for less than $50 when buying it for a friend. Most copies at that time 2006 summer were about $80.  Some were $120!
A used copy for sale has probably not been used at all and is likely to be a better bargain. Also there is a paperback version of the more expensive Language book and you could save money that way.


Once you have some vocabulary learned, (and there is a lot of vocabulary provided in Schackle's language/grammar book), then to extend your vocabulary Sukhmani Sahib is excellent because in many ashtapaudi's each line begins with the same two or three word phrase, so that there are only a few other words. Often you can tell from the English translations (even when poor) what the essential qualities of a new word's meaning are when there are so few unknown words in the line. Sukhmani Sahib is also quite long too so a very lot can be learned. The additional blessing is that Sukhmani is some of the most beautiful poetry written by the Gurus. 

My studies of Gurmukhi began 3 years ago at this time and those are the materials I used most. This has been a very rewarding experience for me, on virtually a daily basis.  One of the bigger challenges is of course pronunciation and there are no CDs with these two books. I presume you have done something already to deal with issues of pronunciation. What I do now is take Hukams online at Sikhnet. Then I read the hukam myself and work on reading it well. Finally I play the audio version available by putting the same page number in at www searchgurbani com *Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 227:SearchGurbani.com ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ[/FONT]*

The pronunciation and reading style of the reader there seems to me to be very good. 

There is a good tape of Gurmukhi pronunciation - I got it from either ancient healingways website Ancient Healing Ways - Natural, Organic and Spiritual Products - Online Store
or else Spirit Voyage Music : Welcome to Spirit Voyage Music Tried to find it just now at both sites but didn't see it. It's there somewhere though. I wish I had gotten the tape much sooner than I did because it is better than "bani pro" and other training aides. The focus in this tape is purely the alphabet and vowels. There are also about 20 rules about pronunciation given for a wide variety of situations occurring in words. 

I can't say much about how well modern Punjabi prepares you for understanding the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. I know a lot of words are no longer in use and others have replaced them and I know there are some grammatical changes, but that is all I know. 

It is a happy day for me when I hear someone is learning to read Gurmukhi!  Every effort you make will bring rewards. 

Wahe Guru Ji Kaa Khalsa,
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, OR





Tomash said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am interested in sikhism for two years and few months ago I've started to learn punjabi. Now Ive just finished an introductory book. Ate Mera kitab pujke chhota hai . Id like to ask you a two questions, because in my city I dont know any sikh very well, and not much of them live here. Id like to know, if I learn presentdays punjabi, whether I will be able to understand Adi Granth. And my second question is, whether you could recommend me some self-study book. Ive read some on Amazon.com, but all of them had bad comments.
> Thank you for any advice, which would be able to get over this language obstacle.
> ...


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



Tomash said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> Iam interested in sikhism for two years and few months ago Ive started to learn punjabi. Now Ive just finished an introductory book. Ate Mera kitab pujke chhota hai . Id like to ask you a two questions, because in my city I dont know any sikh very well, and not much of them live here. Id like to know, if I learn presentdays punjabi, whether I will be able to understand Adi Granth. And my second question is, whether you could recommend me some self-study book. Ive read some on Amazon.com, but all of them had bad comments.
> Thank you for any advice, which would be able to get over this language obstacle.
> ...




i think it will help.  i'm also learning punjabi, and i think i learn more vocabulary from reading Guru Granth Sahib ji than from my punjabi lessons. 

one thing you should do is listen to recitation of gurbani in audio form, this will help a lot with pronunciation, which can be very difficult for westerners.  

although linguistically speaking, czech is somewhat related to punjabi, so it will probably be easier for you to learn than for most native english speakers.  

good luck!


----------



## Amrik Singh (Mar 10, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

gurfateh.
some languages  like lituanian , greeck,armenian ,iranians languages, and even more so romany are much closer to punjabi than english.for english speaker it is quite difficult .also older poepel are, the  more difficult it become.
so the propagation of Sikhi must not depend on the learning of punjabi and Gurmuki .second or third generation punjabi often do not know punjabi well
so it is an exelent solution to have a translation appearing on a big screen like in some Gurdwara in the us and few other countries .translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib  and most of Dassam Granth are available free on line and very much Kirtan and Path is available free online with translation at the site "Raj Karega Khalsa".you can listen  the Nit Nem in english at http://www.keertan.org/andromeda


----------



## Amrik Singh (Mar 10, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

gurfateh.
some languages like lituanian , greeck,armenian ,iranians languages, and even more so romany are much closer to punjabi than english.for english speaker it is quite difficult .also older poepel are, the more difficult it become.
so the propagation of Sikhi must not depend on the learning of punjabi and Gurmuki .second or third generation punjabi often do not know punjabi well
so it is an exelent solution to have a translation appearing on a big screen like in some Gurdwara in the us and few other countries .translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and most of Dassam Granth are available free on line and very much Kirtan and Path is available free online with translation at the site "Raj Karega Khalsa".you can listen the Nit Nem in english at http://www.keertan.org/andromeda


----------



## svea00 (Mar 10, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Hi Tomash!

I´ve also just started to learn Punjabi. But I didn´t came as far as learning the script, so that I can read the textes but don´t know what they mean. 
I downloaded the SGGS in Gurmukhi, roman script and English translation from sikhnet.com. I read frequently and am getting somehow faster and learning vocabulary. They´ve also got a gurbani mp3 downloading section. I can recommend the bani pro stuff, its pronounced quite clearly and she doesn´t speak so fast.
For the script. Google Gurmukhi script and you will find some links. I bought also the Panjabi made easy. It´s ok, but doesn´t really deal with the grammar.

Thank you, Nam Hari Kaur for the book recommandations. I really need to learn the grammar too. I have a living language Hindi at home, but think that it wouldn´t be such a good idea to learn the hindi script too, just to learn some grammar. Could be confusing. 
And actually I´m not sure how much alike these languages are.


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## Amrik Singh (Mar 10, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

i must ad to the site adress above that you can find Gurbani Path etc... in the section "multi media"


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## Tomash (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Iam novice, but Iam daring to say that to know hindi is good for learning punjabi. My first impression was that gurmukhi is one third hindi, one third persian and one third the rest influences. But the alphabet and gramma is rather similar to hindi. Its origin lays in ancient brahmanic language










svea00 said:


> Hi Tomash!
> 
> I´ve also just started to learn Punjabi. But I didn´t came as far as learning the script, so that I can read the textes but don´t know what they mean.
> I downloaded the SGGS in Gurmukhi, roman script and English translation from sikhnet.com. I read frequently and am getting somehow faster and learning vocabulary. They´ve also got a gurbani mp3 downloading section. I can recommend the bani pro stuff, its pronounced quite clearly and she doesn´t speak so fast.
> ...


----------



## futurekaur (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

I have the C. Shackle book out from the library and it is very helpful. I don't find Gurmukhi very difficult. It is very phonetic, there are no difficult and complex verbs (think of Latin!) maybe speaking Panjabi will be a challenge for me but I won't worry. It's great to study and then read the Guru Granth Sahib in Gurmukhi then Romanized version to see how you are progressing, just recognizing letters....


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## futurekaur (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Someone in this thread or another mentioned Amarjit Kaur's CD of Daily Bani; this is now on sale now for $7 at SpiritVoyage.com
 I just bought it, thanks! and wanted to tell others...


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

futurekaur ji

I believe it was me. The CD was much more expensive when I bought it. So thanks for letting others know. Do you find that Amarjit Kaur is very clear and words are easy to make out?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

What has been especially helpful for my nitenam is something you can download free. 

You need to download Mozilla Firefox:
Firefox - Choose a Better Browser
Then go to Add-ons and select Downloadhelper. It's a program within Firefox that allows you to download video from Youtube to your computer.

Nitenam banis:
YouTube - Japji Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Jaap Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Tav Prasad Savaiye - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Chaupai Sahib - Sikh Prayer 
YouTube - Anand Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Rehiras Sahib (Sampooran) - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Kirtan Sohila - Sikh Prayer


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> What has been especially helpful for my nitenam is something you can download free.
> 
> You need to download Mozilla Firefox:
> Firefox - Choose a Better Browser
> ...



i love these videos, they are EXCELLENT pronunciation guides.  the Gianis of Damdami Taksal spend years learning the art of Santhia, Gurbani pronunciation and grammar.    i have this audio CD and love to listen to it to help improve my pronunciation.

you can also get them (in multiple variations - good for learning Gurmukhi too!) at .:: Raj Karega Khalsa Network ::. Gurbani: Sikh Prayers.


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## svea00 (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

I´ve seen them too. There are quite helpful, but I guess I´ll stick to my bani pro, as it is more handy with the ipod to recite the banis. I have purchased the banis on paper with translations in a small and handy format. 
I´m getting better every day  . But don´t speak of my translations!:shutup:


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## futurekaur (Mar 30, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

AadJi; thanks I can't tell you about Amanjit Kaur's pronunciation as I haven't heard it, yet. I couldn't find a youtube link and hadn't seen the videos everyone's posted. Which are amazing.
    HarjasJi; I downloaded firefox etc but then Windows says it can't open the file, ugh, am I doing something wrong?
      JasleenJi; thanks for the link as I can view them that way. These video files are just the best. The line by line is absolutely terrific. Nice and slow.  I can work on my Gurmurkhi too.  The pronunciation is so clear. I recommend these videos to everyone. The English lets you know what you are saying, and frankly you can pick up lots of vocabulary too...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



> HarjasJi; I downloaded firefox etc but then Windows says it can't open the file, ugh, am I doing something wrong?


I don't know, depends on what OS you're running. I've heard Windows Vista is cranky. But you don't need to download Firefox, those links are from Youtube. You should be able to open them with Internet Explorer. Firefox has a neat add-on that lets you save the video from Youtube to your hard drive. That way you can play them anytime.

Let me see if Youtube isn't working you might need these programs. I think I had a problem with Internet Explorer not playing videos before.

http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash
Adobe Shockwave Download Center

I never could get Internet Explorer to work for Youtube. That's why I use Firefox.
Firefox web browser | Faster, more secure, & customizable
Well, you should be able to download.  Are you getting a desktop icon and the program doesn't work?  Or is your firewall interrupting the download?


----------



## futurekaur (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

I'm using XP I'm waiting to divide my hardrive so I can run Linux Ubuntu. I need Dragon program otherwise I'd ditch Windows entirely.

I was missing the adobe plug in, as today I used Firefox, downloaded and watched the videos on RealPlayer. So that's perfect. Thanks!


----------



## Visitor (May 5, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Hi Lionchild!  I also am a convert to Sikhism and relate very much to what you are saying.  I am quite reluctant to go to the Gurdwara as I feel very isolated there.  Almost like I am being looked at strangely.  Realistically, I am aware that these are my own inferiorities that I need to work on.  You seem to be one step ahead of me as you have the courage to talk to others.  I avoid the Langar hall altogether when I do have to courage to go and honestly, I always take someone with me.  I also wanted to ask about how to break this barrier...

I really wanted to reply to your sentence about one telling you (Quote): granth sahib should only be read and spoken in the "language of the guru's" aka punjabi.  Firstly, if I am not mistaken, the Guru Granth Sahib was not written in Punjabi to begin with.  It was later translated.  Secondly, was it not Guru Arjan who wanted to tnaslate it into Indian and other languages so that its words could spread over the world like oil over water?

Sikhism was never about exclusivity but embracing all philosophies.  That is why you can find writings in the scared books by Hindus, Muslims and sikhs.

I wonder if sometimes (in London at least) if culture is becoming confused for religion?  

If you are interested in learning about the history of the Sikhism, how it became, the Gurus etc I would suggest reading 'The Sikh Religion' by Max Arthur Macauliffe (ISBN: 81-7536-132-8).


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## futurekaur (May 8, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Hi Visitor;
 I think Lionchild is now a Baha'i, not sure. I'm keen on Sikhi and learning Gurmukhi. Visiting my local Gurdwara worried me too, but when I looked at the pics they posted on their website,  I realized that they are much more outgoing then I imagined. 
   We really can make our own barriers. Why not befriend a college student or a young person who is educated in sikhi  or start a 'global' sikh program to find others.


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## dushanka (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Because english isn't either my mother tongue , to avoid those problems above i would like to learn punjabi .No matter how much time it will take ...
I plan to move from Germany to Canada . Can anybody tell me the best place in Toronto to take courses to learn punjabi? Thank you very much 
Best regards , 
Dushanka


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

It bewilders me to read the above postings. The Hindi language is under attack from within by Tamil and Marathi and externally by English which has become the nation’s second language. Whilst I agree the globalisation process requires a common language and English appears to have won this mantle by default by virtue of being the language of the present day richer nations, I have always preferred Latin or Sanskrit.

It is your decision to convert to Sikhism, the every least, first and foremost step should be to learn the native and indigenous languages of Sikhism’s homeland. Punjabi is an easy language to learn, enquire at your local Sikh net stations. The anti cultural drive against the ancient civilisations is destroying all things sacred and replacing them with the most inane and banal. Learn Punjabi, learning any language adds to your itinerary of qualifications. It is a small token gesture of your pledge of devotion to your chosen religion. 

Sikhism is a breed of warriors, they would not be seen as mice when confronted by a small command to learn its native tongue and the language of its written scriptures, many have done so and are richer for the acquired skills and linguistical art.


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## dushanka (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

SAT SRI AKAL  Jeetijohal !!!
I actually did not meant anything else than you  have mentioned !!!!
I am very willing to learn Punjabi since it is  also the language of all my ancenstors .
I don't expect any problems to learn it  because till today i have learnt many other foreign languages , so why not Punjabi? I have just asked for help if anybody can tell me the best place in Toronto where i can take courses in punjabi  because i plan to change my place of living from Germany to Canada .


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

No matter Dushanka, history has dictated that each faith, religion, belief excelling in producing determined and noble creations is pursued by those seeking affiliation with anything popular only to decimate and destroy upon entering such sanctums, veritable Trojan horses as it were. All religions are sound, it is rather the wilful demands of the weakest links that have debilitated great nations and causes. 

Sikhism welcomes all truth seekers in this age of Holy War and spiritual ignorance. We are blessed with so much information and freedom of travel and thought to choose the belief system most appealing to our own mindset. Language barriers should not pose problems as learning new languages is quite easy. One cannot expect church or temple communities to take time out at a time their own family pressures and responsibilities are prioritised for attention, and rightly so. 

Take one step towards God and you find a thousand lights on a thousand paths all leading to the One great temple of Truth that is Gods light. Stand and wail of barriers and hindrances and one is left behind. Assimilation is the key. My best wishes to all you newly converted to Sikhism let the spirit of truth and love guide you, and find not fault in trifling matter at a time the world is beset by the forces of wickedness seeking to lead mankind astray.


----------



## spnadmin (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



jeetijohal said:


> No matter Dushanka, history has dictated that each faith, religion, belief excelling in producing determined and noble creations is pursued by those seeking affiliation with anything popular only to decimate and destroy upon entering such sanctums, veritable Trojan horses as it were. All religions are sound, it is rather the wilful demands of the weakest links that have debilitated great nations and causes.
> 
> Sikhism welcomes all truth seekers in this age of Holy War and spiritual ignorance. We are blessed with so much information and freedom of travel and thought to choose the belief system most appealing to our own mindset. Language barriers should not pose problems as learning new languages is quite easy. One cannot expect church or temple communities to take time out at a time their own family pressures and responsibilities are prioritised for attention, and rightly so.
> 
> Take one step towards God and you find a thousand lights on a thousand paths all leading to the One great temple of Truth that is Gods light. Stand and wail of barriers and hindrances and one is left behind. Assimilation is the key. My best wishes to all you newly converted to Sikhism let the spirit of truth and love guide you, and find not fault in trifling matter at a time the world is beset by the forces of wickedness seeking to lead mankind astray.



Jeetijohal ji

I so agree with this. It is partly the case that gurdwaras do not take the time to make Sikhi, Sikhism and Gurbani as accessible as it could be to converts and to born-Sikhs who do not know Gurmukhi. More could be done with educational programs. And often the gurdwaras seem to be closed societies. But you are right to say that the gurdwaras are run by people who have jobs and families and are short on sevadhars. In the end, the responsibility lies with each person to learn the language by whatever strategy is best for them. 

dushanka ji -- Continue with your plan to take lessons and persist. And also, go to neighborhoods where there are Punjabi people and hang out and learn by doing.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Religion is our mother, we are reared and raised by its guiding hand and counsel, we gain all understanding of the world at its feet. Upon maturity and spiritual awakening, we become its guardians and protectors, upholders of its honour. Religion is the world, as children with faith we rely upon its each word and utterance in the little world created in our homes, as we grow, the world too grows until we become universal, whereupon setting aside our affiliations we are able to observe the common thread of love coursing through the souls and mind s of humanity. And we with our religion are free, it is honoured where we roam, and our honour is associated with the honour of our faith system, our mother.


----------



## pk70 (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



jeetijohal said:


> *My humble insertions*
> Religion is our mother, we are reared and raised by its guiding hand and counsel, we gain all understanding of the world at its feet.
> *Religion is our guardian, it raises us like a good mother through counseling, and it purifies us further to enshrine the real mother the Lord in the heart.*
> 
> ...


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## singhisking101 (Mar 8, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Here are some videos that can get you started:

YouTube - Manpreet Singh: Please carry me across the world-ocean
YouTube - Bhai Harjinder Singh: How Can The Fish Live Without Water?
YouTube - Bhai Harjinder Singh - Rain Gaee Math Din Bhee Jae
YouTube - Tejinderpal Singh Dulla: O my Soul, sing Praises of the Lord
YouTube - Such is the diamond; the Lord's Immaculate Name
YouTube - Some call the Lord ' Ram, Ram ', and some ' Khuda '
YouTube - Bhai Nirmal Singh - hai Gobind hai Gopaal

If you look around i am sure you can find more of these videos

Also Bhai Dya Singh Ji's kirtan usually has some English translations in it.


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## singhisking101 (Mar 8, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

some products that could be useful
CD ROMS: 
Amazon.com: Instant Immersion Learn 33 Languages Tutor DVD-ROM - Arabic, Bengali, Brazilian (Portuguese), Chinese (Cantonese), Dutch, English, Farsi (Persian), Finish, French, German, Greek, Hebrew, Hindi, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Japanese, Korean,
Amazon.com: Topics Entertainment Talk Now! Beginners Punjabi: Software

books:
Amazon.com: Learn Punjabi in 30 Days: N.S.R. Ganathe: Books
Amazon.com: Learn Punjabi In 30 Days: M.A. N.S.R. Ganathe: Books


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## tony (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



jeetijohal said:


> It bewilders me to read the above postings. The Hindi language is under attack from within by Tamil and Marathi and externally by English which has become the nation’s second language. Whilst I agree the globalisation process requires a common language and English appears to have won this mantle by default by virtue of being the language of the present day richer nations, I have always preferred Latin or Sanskrit.
> 
> It is your decision to convert to Sikhism, the every least, first and foremost step should be to learn the native and indigenous languages of Sikhism’s homeland. Punjabi is an easy language to learn, enquire at your local Sikh net stations. The anti cultural drive against the ancient civilisations is destroying all things sacred and replacing them with the most inane and banal. Learn Punjabi, learning any language adds to your itinerary of qualifications. It is a small token gesture of your pledge of devotion to your chosen religion.
> 
> Sikhism is a breed of warriors, they would not be seen as mice when confronted by a small command to learn its native tongue and the language of its written scriptures, many have done so and are richer for the acquired skills and linguistical art.


 
Jeetijohal ji 
surely if sikhism is to become a religion for all then would it not be better to preach it in a language that the majority could understand. the idea is to teach the word of God not the language that can come later. if panjabi is so easy to learn then why is it that so many born Sikhs do not know it (in England ). I spoke only the other day to a 40yr old sikh who said that at the Gudwara he finds it hard to under stand what is being said as it is spoken so fast, he has had 40 yrs of living in a panjabi speaking family and struggles so what chance would a new comer have. Please try to be more tolerant to none panjabi speaking Sikhs,Not all have the same leaning capabilities. Guru Nanak ji spoke in the language of the people of the land he was in and understood that if he was to get the message to them he would need to speak in a tonge they understood. Was is not also the Guru jis wish to bring down cultural barriers thus making them the first to start this so called anti cultural drive. In the same sense as i and many others chose to be a Sikh, You choose to life outside the Panjab, So by your own words you should thus try to accept the culture of the country you life in, England has a culture of the majority rule and the majority speak english. A person should only preach what they are willing to practise. A true Sikh is tolerant of all around him and only to willing to help all. Sikhism has no room for cultural values.
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



> surely if sikhism is to become a religion for all then would it not be better to preach it in a language that the majority could understand. the idea is to teach the word of God not the language that can come later. if panjabi is so easy to learn then why is it that so many born Sikhs do not know it (in England ).


 
Whilst mass migration { caused by engineered systematic destruction by the US} and the concept of globalisation obviate a pressing need for a common culture, I feel no need for the warrior race of Sikhs to sacrifice their own noble culture to merge with what is a lost civilisation in moral ruin. As a Sikh born and raised in London I live equally happily with the native Englanders and all nationals from any part of the world as my own. England is lost at this time, the old traditions were sold for a debauched media anti culture, how can the natives then demand or expect compliance to a force they themselves are victims of. Traditional values here in the UK have been destroyed in the haphazard cause of multi culturalism that favours neither the foreigners of the indigenous population. It is therefore a non cause.



> Was is not also the Guru jis wish to bring down cultural barriers thus making them the first to start this so called anti cultural drive. In the same sense as i and many others chose to be a Sikh


 
It is human to be as one with those about us. When all are divided and driven by contrary will, a situational fallacy encouraged by the ruling demagoguery, how is unity orchestrated. One cannot inflict publicly, atrocities upon Islam, Israel or economic devastation upon foreign nations and not expect their own citizens to pick up upon the subtle employs of hypocrisy. The value of human life is placed upon how willing the establishment is to sacrifice the same at the later of power in the questionable cause of anti-terrorism.



> You choose to life outside the Panjab, So by your own words you should thus try to accept the culture of the country you life in, England has a culture of the majority rule and the majority speak english. A person should only preach what they are willing to practise. A true Sikh is tolerant of all around him and only to willing to help all. Sikhism has no room for cultural values.
> Tony


 

On the contrary I have flown from this accursed godforsaken land twice to foreign shores but was returned here. Others have failed to extricate me because of my British citizenship. A hapless nonexistent captive forced by witchery to speak of politics to give reason for the cunning powers to defend their siege and capture of me. The UK has no culture, it was culturally rich in the days of my youth, but is now focused neither on church or society but solely led by an evil media.

Sikhism is built upon strong family values of honour, morality and an abiding by the will of community and family elders and statesmen. This would be in direct conflict with what is preached by social workers and do-gooder attempts to salve what is a fractured and dysfunctional society. I loathe discussing, being exploited or used by weak politico’s to focus upon issues they do not possess the moral backbone to tackle.

{**
The Punjab was prospering, with investors receiving a 12% return on their savings, this was cut back to a nominal figure by the main banks here in the UK to divert funding and investment away from the relatively poor and oppressed Punjab to these insatiably pits of the UK. My lot differs not too greatly from the lot of Punjab, words echoing Rani Jinda, come and gone before me. I detest discussing politics although I am a formidable political player purely and primarily because the pigs in power use it as leverage to warrant retaining me here. You and I are both Englanders and Sikhs by choice. We are in the Spirit of both our Motherland and Host Nation. The mutual accusatory finger pointing runs in both directions.**}


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## tony (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Dear jeetijohal ji
The fact still remains that the Guru ji's message was From God and that Guru Nanak ji learnt several languages in order to spread that word. God made all mankind Yet they don't all speak the same language, so to say that everyone must learn Panjabi to hear Gods message would isolate many from hearing the Guru ji's message thus creating a divide and as it is the Guru jis message that all are equal regardless of race, colour, sex, language and even religion, then surely it is only right that Sikhism be preached in as many languages as possible. As for your own plight I shouldnot comment, but i choose to be in England and if you are detained here then it is of your own doing. i do not discuss nor bring into my discussion any political points of view, they are for politicians which i have no interest in and have no place on a religious forum. however I have noticed you do seem to dwell on the warrior and cultural side of Sikhism and not on the true intent of the Guru ji's to spread the word of God. Also the concept of mans mass migration being due to the Americans is ridiculous, mans mass migration started 200000 yrs ago when we walked out of Africa.
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Learning Punjabi to appropriately read or learn of the Punjabi scriptures and writings is considered a small step towards learning about Sikhism should one need to do so. Many noble Sikhs have translated the SGGS into English and Romanic for the purposes of such truth seekers and scholars. The Sikhs are a warrior race and are proud for being so, each individual is the upholder of the honour and good name of his faith and retains metaphorically the sword of righteousness at his side to fight oppression, injustice and tyranny. 

I feel you are undergoing some sort of transitional uncertainty regarding your faith and belief. I wish you well in your journey. The current mass migration of Islamic, Russians, Europeans and Asians is actively engineered to bring in cheap labour from labour rich nations into this under populated contender with the same. It is a fact regardless of whether you wish to deem it so. Downsizing the economies of other nations to encourage emigration to these shores only for these hapless victims to be verbally assaulted and set upon by the very same said governments profiting from the hard work, labour and toil by native indigenous louts as paki’s etc is the name of the game, dear innocent or naive tony ji. Politics is a terrible business. Evolution matters are best reserved for forums designated for them.

The religious were in times of yore the superior thinking spiritual being. The state indoctrinated or educated minions churned out from the corridors of academia seek to devalue by derision these people and do so many methods. Learning Punjabi is very easy as is English for the native Punjabi. Whether Religion, Philosophy, Science or the Literati, these institutions require protection from undue criticism and aggression from sceptics who assault what they cannot understand. English seems to have taken the place of the global language unfortunately. It’s hardly what we could refer to as a problem is it now...? :nothingtoadd:   :support:


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## tony (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

I happen to be a state educated minion as you put it but have no desire to derise anyone let alone religious leaders. Whilst i have only recently called my self a Sikh i believe i have been a Sikh in my values for a long time and have no transitional uncertianty in my faith or believe, whilst I am now learning  panjabi it was a very kind Sikh who first translated Ik oan kaar for me and then many more prayers that brought me a desire to learn more of the Guru ji's teaching. It was this kindness and willingness to translate that brought another person to Sikhism. You also bring up the subject of racism. my 2 children have suffered this but not at the hands of native indigenous louts but by young Sikhs at panjabi school. My children did not retaliate but forgave them as they are brought up to be true Sikhs leading by example, treating others as they would like to be treated not as they are treated, As for bringing cheap labour here guilty as charged but then how many call centers are now based in india boasting the Indian economy. So the finger again pionts both ways. this thread though is not about economy or racism, Its about making Sikhism available to the mass's and showing them there is a better way of life than for earthly greed and if that means the Gudwaras preaching in the language of the country there in then thats what we should all be working towards not holding on to pride in the past. Pride is a sin, living in the past has no future, what does it matter what language the words in come as long as message is understood.
please if you have suffered racism or feel you are being unfairly treated then seek advise from a solicitor, England has an Equal oppertunities policy which if not followed then is punishable by law. At least were're trying even if some may be failing which is more than can be said about some other countries
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

_:star: __Dear God Almighty !!!I do not know or care for you or your family and have no need for compassion from you or any other, desist from this political game playing. _To answer your point, against my better judgment, each pandit and holy man who ever read my palm or my fate remarked upon how glowing my good fortune is. _ know my fate writer well and observe him ruining many lives, societies and nations. The SGGS is available widely in many languages, end of matter. The small courtesy on your part to learn Punjabi you find so abusive or threatening is symptomatic moreover of your devotion to your faith than any shortcoming of the part of Sikhism. Cease from baiting me. I am and have always been known as an extremely happy disposition person, my only problem is the pig that holds me captive here, for which I can provide no proof. If you find that abusive that is your prerogative. The matter is hereafter closed from my end._


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## tony (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

If I where any less a man I would take your postings as offensive however I rise above and only offer you good will. You have anger in your heart and i feel compansion for you. I will offer you something I once read, cant remember exactly where or which Guru but it goes a little like this, two men where walking along one of good nature and actions, the other not so good, the man of less than favourable actions found a gold coin, while the other pricked his hand with a thorn. When the man asked of the Guru why is it that i lead a good life yet i get a thorn in my hand and the other gets rewarded with a gold coin, the Guru replied that it was in the mans destiny to find the treasure and that because of his wrong doing his treasure had been reduced to just one coin, as for you, your destiny was to be impaled on a stake but because of your good actions  this had been reduced to just a thorn. If you are detained here against your will then it is because of your earlier actions and the consequences of which is to see the fowl deeds of others, but instead of misering over them let it go and enjoy what life has to offer however small, I have only asked that the Gurus teaching be told in all languages and not insulted any singular person please have the same repect for me and do not insult me or my family. 
Tony


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## spnadmin (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Forum members, all respected:

The thread title asks if the Punjabi language is a barrier for new Sikhs. 

The logically possible answers are Yes, No, Maybe, Sometimes, I am not certain, or similar terms. The only group of members who can truthfully answer the question posed by the thread would be new Sikhs who are not Punjabi speakers. Anyone else would be guessing. Of course there are Punjabi speakers who might be Hindu, Christian, Mulsim, etc. who on conversion wouldn't have the problem implied by the thread title, since they were Punjabi speakers at the time of conversion.

Once an answer is selected (Yes, No, etc.) then the next step in conversation would be to explain why lack of fluency in Punjabi is a problem and/or what steps have been taken to correct the problem and/or experiences that illustrate the problem -- if it is a problem.

Those who are fluent in Punjabi can contribute to the discussion in equally valuable ways by providing suggestions and recommending learning materials, lessons, schools, online learning sites. They can also provide moral support, or relate stories and experiences positive and negative of their non-Punjabi friends and associates. Perhaps they even have experience as teachers of the Punjabi language.

The thread is situated in the part of the forum called New To Sikhism. I fail to see how criticism of new Sikhs would contribute to a positive forum experience. The point of the New to Sikhism forum is to support converts. So let's try to HELP by being mentors.

Let's also stay on the topic of the thread or posts will be moved. Consider my remarks an invitation to turn over a new page in interpersonal communication and Internet civility. Thanks and fateh!


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Religion was the bastion of the intellectual elite, its mysteries and deep spiritual wisdom well protected from modern day opinion espousing novices debating the semantics of a profound wisdom man must aspire towards if called than make demands of. Enlightenment is not solely gained by ardent study or pursuit of its prestigious mantle, but by grace, faith and devotion..

The sacred truths are illumined by the devotee as their intellectual integrity, emotional maturity and moral mettle permit. Novices, scholars and students of the sacred path to this noble shrine must submit their own mind, supplicate the heart and merge the spirit. It is only in this state the gentle peace of sahej is found.

The modern day subtle threat to the standing of religiosity has placed the very existence of God and the Supreme Lord into question, that is the danger of incongruent and the ignorant bringing their own lack of guile and wit to the tolerant threshold of the House of God. Sikhism does not by its intrinsic nature convert others to its path. The major religions are weakened by the submission to each demand voiced through a vociferous media mob to include such political matters in its retinue, only to assert blame upon religions unsolicited intervention in their politics. A truly comical farce of counter-allegations and transference of the sin of the unscrupulous upon the divided and undefended house of religion. A detached observation leads one to be fiercely protective of the sacred sanctum within where many hours of peace of mind were found.

Followers of religions have no right to make loud assertion or demands of religion. Once one demand is satisfied a barrage of whims follows dismantling the very walls of the temple of truth to serve the cause of the seemingly insurmountable mob at its door. A terrible outcome indeed. Let politicians serve the people, and the media seek out ‘public opinion’ through shields of their own vented views. Politics is a terrible affair.

All books of learning, be they Scientific, religious, Philosophical or Political are as valid as the intelligence communicated by their preachers and the understanding of their adherents. Sikhism has printed many scriptures in many languages for the benefit of Sikh children born in foreign lands for whom Punjabi is not immediately their primary language. Once read in Romanic the Sikh is then inspired to learn the relatively language of Punjabi and Sanskrit and gain a firsthand alliteration of the sacred scriptures of the Bani. As it should be, an exercise of Love and devotion than demand and aggression...

{A Sikh becomes transcends merged with the Holy Golden spectral Light of the Supreme Lord. What is then a white sikh?}


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

As the message of Sikhi is for all humanity then language should not become a stumbling block which it is for many. 

The sad reality is the  lack of education of the caretakers of the Panth- The Honchos of the Takhats and of SGPC. The english transliteration by many so called Sikh scholars is poor and many times misleading which is not only sad but offensive to the Gurmat ideals. We have no venues to train anyone.

If we can find the Holy Bible,Koran  and scriptures of other religions in Punjabi  and in many other languages, then why can we not find SGGS in different languages?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind........


Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Jeetijohal Ji..

The Fonts in your mail look very nice....BUT makes reading them difficult...
the "real beauty" of a Mail is in the MESSAGE..dont you think ??

Just a thought....simple clothes brings out the inner beauty..similarly simple easy to read fonts make it easier on some of us who dont have eagle eyes....

Hope you dont mind....

Thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



VaheguruSeekr said:


> As the message of Sikhi is for all humanity then language should not become a stumbling block which it is for many.
> 
> The sad reality is the  lack of education of the caretakers of the Panth- The Honchos of the Takhats and of SGPC. The english transliteration by many so called Sikh scholars is poor and many times misleading which is not only sad but offensive to the Gurmat ideals. We have no venues to train anyone.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Ji..
A very stimulating thought indeed...

A few unique features of the SGGS...

1. Its in POETRY...and poetry is doubly harder to translate than PROSE.

2. The Divine Message in the SGGS is shrouded in Metaphorical and allegorical vocabulary....again a very challenging task for the would be translator to tackle as he/she would have to be very very fluent and comfortable with the metaphors and allegories in BOTH languages - Original and translated into. That is at the base of the ludicrous and downright  funny and laughable misinterpretations we find in modern day Translations available today..simply becasue the translator just went for the "Word to word" surface translation literally...not even bothering to go deeper than skin deep !!

3. The SGGS is about EXPERIENCES....rather than straight forward historical stories as in the Bible/Koran..and as we all know..
experiences" are as difficult to translate as even Guru Ji admits..Jion Gunggeh mathiyee khayee...How can a Dumb/Deaf MUTE Express himself regarding the taste of sweetmeats he has eaten..in this case the "tranlsator" would be DEAF/UMB/MUTE in terms of Vovabulary !! LOST FOR WORDS LITERALLY !!

4. The SGGS further contains over a DOZEN Languages...and that complicates matters even more..as just being an expert in one or two languages wont be enough as is the case with the Bible/Koran.

5. Last but not least the question of Finances...Resources...The Bible/Koran has nearly 2 BILLION followers and MULTIPLE GOVERNMENTS backing them - 40 Mulsim Countries...and the Worlds biggest richest countries backing the Bible....with SIKHS..no such hope...we dont even have a "state" let alone a country..we are minorities everywhere...a RICH man having a piece of GLASS has the resources to "polish" it and have it Marketed as Diamond..easily....a POOR man having an uncut diamond wont be able to have it even polished !! much less market it..thats is the situation we are in.

6. I am eternally grateful that Manmohan Singh completed the task of Translating the SGGS into the 8 Vol set at absolutley NO PERSONAL benenfit to himself or his family (financially) But at great personal COST...the Same effort was performed by Prof Sahib Singh with his Ten Volume SGGS Darpan..... The Mahan Kosh and the Faridkot Teeka was financed by the SikH maharajas of Nabha and Faridkot respectively. So we do have the Basics...now its up to US ALL as the Sikh Nation to do the needful in translating the SGGS Darpan into English (initially) and improving on the Manmohan Singh Teeka vocubalary wise. Then perhaps can progress to other languages...The Greatest Disappointment has been the SGPC which has wasted hundreds of millions of Goluck collections for the past 90 YEARS..all down the drain.....


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 9, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> A few unique features of the SGGS...
> 
> 1. Its in POETRY...and poetry is doubly harder to translate than PROSE.
> 
> ...



Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Very well said.

No one could have said it better.

Lakh, Lakh thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## tony (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

God is only One. His name is True. He is the creator, He is without fear. He is inimical to none. He never dies. he is beyond births and deaths. he is self illuminated. He is realized by the kindness of the true Guru. Repeat his Name. He is true in the beginning. He is true when the ages commenced and is ever true. He is also true now. Nanak says that he will certainly be true in the future. Mortals cannot comprehend God by pondering over Him for thousands of times. Mortals may remain silent and absorbed in the meditation of God and his love, yet peace of mind will not be achieved. Yearning  of hungary mortals will never end by keeping fast, or by collecting loads of wordly riches. MORTALS MAY POSSESS THOUSANDS OF CLEVER THOUGHTS OR THE BIGGEST WISDOM, YET NOT EVEN ONE WISE THOUGHT WILL ACCOMPANY HIM TO THE NEXT WORLD. HOW CAN THE MORTAL BECOME TRUE? HOW CAN THE BARRIER OF FALSE HOOD BE SMASHED? NANAK REPLIES THAT THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED BY OBEYING THE PRE-ORDAINED COMMAND AND WILL OF GOD RECORDED FOR MAN.
The above as any Sikh will know is from the Guru Granth Sahib ji it is written in English, Whilst it is proberly not an exact translation it was enough to get the message of God across to me 20 yrs ago and is responsable for the changing of my ways. The part i have written in capitals clearly states that it doesnt matter how clever you are ( not all have the same capasity for learning ), It is by following the pre-ordained will of God as recorded for man that enlightenment will be achieved. As these are words of God as told to Guru Nanak ji would one of the more intellectual amongst us please tell me how am I and many others amongst us are supposed to know what they are if it is only preached in panjabi. The learning of Gods words is first and foremost for myself and panjabi words are secondary. From page 6 of the Guru Granth Santh ji, What language should be uttered by the mouth, so that he may bestow his love on us after hearing it?. and from page 8 There is only one giver for the beings, WHOM I MUST NOT FORGET. and  WHAT DO ALL THE GREATED BEINGS, WHOM I BEHOLD. The word of God and the poetry of the Gurus can be heard and understood no matter what the language, to state that it has to be in panjabi and that religion is a bastion for the intellectually elite is shamefull. It has become quite apparent to me that many sikhs believe that God belongs only to them and that by preaching only in their native tongue they can keep it that way. I have great faith in God and the teachings of the Gurus. I shall leave you with one more line from page 15 of the granth, ONE WHO OBEYS GOD, SWIMS ACROSS THE OCEANS OF THE WORLD AND CAUSES TRUE DESCIPLES OF THE GURU TO DO SO,  is actually telling you to spread God name to all, not to keep it to yourself and it took no great intellect to work that out. Those who keep Gods name to themselves are the true sinners amongst us.
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*



> It has become quite apparent to me that many Sikhs believe that God belongs only to them and that by preaching only in their native tongue they can keep it that way. I have great faith in God and the teachings of the Gurus. I shall leave you with one more line from page 15 of the granth, ONE WHO OBEYS GOD, SWIMS ACROSS THE OCEANS OF THE WORLD AND CAUSES TRUE DESCIPLES OF THE GURU TO DO SO, is actually telling you to spread God name to all, not to keep it to yourself and it took no great intellect to work that out. Those who keep Gods name to themselves are the true sinners amongst


 
The Sikh race is a moral, congenial dignified people. I find it morally reprehensible and bordering upon the absurd your demands for poetic translation of the SGGS. There are plenty of translations available for lovers of the Bani. Sikhs by their very nature require moral protection in this age of mob rule. Christians slaughtered their Christ in the cause of cleansing their sins. The Sikhs would not expose our Guru’s or the teachings for scrutiny by infidels and the ignorant. God is Universal Spirit, Sikhism is mainly Punjabi. If anyone has a desire to learn of the word there are many millions of books and literature available, and many English speaking Gyani’s ready and willing to assist. I witness on a daily basis the dishonouring and blasphemy against Mohammed and Jesus in the media, a media literally encouraging atheism whilst indulging the demands of the sinful and perverse, and citing insurrection and treason laws to protect their motley mongrels in power. Your remarks are ill considered and entirely false in their premise.


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## tony (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

piont of interest it was the Jews who killed christ and your views on religion are more in tune with that of a muslim extremist than that of an all embracing Sikh
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

They play the part of accomplice by citing his barbaric death as a sacrifice for the sins of the people than a brutal murder at the hands of the mob observed by the Monarch, Priests and State thus protecting the real culprits of the crime. He refused to join ranks with the establishment who then conspired and engineered his murder and death. Life goes on, circumstances rarely change. The establishment killed God and The Christ and continue to do so today. They are rich and powerful and have a voice, nuclear weaponry, mass armies and witchcraft power. Look around you. We are in the era of Kalyug, Armageddon …

I have no wish to debate or argue with you, please have a pleasant day and may Peace Prosperity and Love be with Sikhs, Sikhsim and the Punjab ... WaheGuru.


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## tony (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

At last jeeti ji we have something in common as i have no wish to argue with you either. May the love of God be with yourself, All Sikhs, Sikhism and the Punjab. Best wishes to yourself
Tony


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## Archived_Member5 (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Dear Tony Ji, 

Thankyou for a much needed blessing, peace be with you and your family ... WaheGuru Ji. JJ.


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## spnadmin (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Let this be the end of digressions. Sikh means learner. The starting place is admission that we all have areas of ignorance with much to learn. The knowledge of the Guru belongs to anyone who will iisten. Guruji has told us that if even an idiot repeats Gurbani that person can be saved. 

The thread is how to master the language of the Guru -- language in the big sense of the word. What is the message for humanity. Guru Nanak saved the world -- all of it who would dare to hear and be transformed. 

The thread is also about how to master the languages of Gurbani -- all of them in Gurmukhi script. Anytime anyone decides to take on a new learning objective like learning a new language, he/she is also going to learn about a culture and a time in history. We came to SPN to open doors, we are not here to close them.


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## Tomash (Mar 24, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Hello, sat sri akal. I was happy to finish a punjabi textbook - Teach yourself punjabi by sahib Purewal. Now id like to continue my hobby, so i am ready to talk in my next year journey to Punjab and maybe read Guru Granth Sahib. But on Amazon, i didnt find any thorough textbook, with extensive gramma practice and some words about Gurbani. Could some of you help me and give me some recomendation?
Koi tip lai danvad, tomas


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## spnadmin (Mar 24, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Tomash ji

This is going to be a hard one to answer. The all round most recommended text is by Charles Shackle and is entitled, The Sacred Language of the Sikhs. The book is very expensive. I paid aboaut 60 dollars for a second-hand copy which I had to track down and found in Berlin Germany. Copies on Amazon can be close to 100 dollars or more.


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## Tomash (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

thanks a lot for a tip, aaD0002 jee.


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## unbiasedview (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

well i would like to add another dimension to ur observation or u can say to ur grievance!
i can speak and understand punjabi but still i cant understand gurbani because although script of gurbani is gurmukhi there is very little of punjabi language in it.different gurus and bhagats have used different languages at different points in gurugranth sahib.and it is very difficult to understand them.so translating guru granth sahib into english or using english as medium of teaching gurbani is very wise idea
and it should be encouraged !
but in the meantime a sikh shld try to learn punjabi language because sometimes it is not possible to find exact synonyms ,they might fail to convey the gravity of situation or the point


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## spnadmin (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

unbiasedview ji

Valuable comments you have added to the conversation. One thing about reading Gurbani however is this. Once you have some working vocabulary and knowledge of the Gurmukhi script, the next step, and the only next step, toward conquering all the very real difficulties you mentioned is this. A constant and stubborn practice of taking shabads one at a time, and reading, pulling out vocabulary words and memorzing them, and thinking, and trying to understand, and going online in a forum like this to get learned input from knowledgeable forum members, experimenting with online dictionaries to get at the vocabularies of other languages. There are two parts: learning the language of the Guru; and learning the meaning of the Guru. It is learning by doing and doing and doing. It comes hard, but each month means progress, however slow. There are Gurmat courses in English in some gurdwaras -- but they really do not achieve what you really want to achieve. Sometimes they are nothing more than feel good sessions, and the people who can read the Gurmukhi end up the only ones who can read Gurmukhi.

As for learning Punjabi -- that is sometimes not an answer. From my experience only: Modern Punjabi is just different enough from the language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib to be unhelpful in many instances. Having a Sanskirt glossary on hand is often more helpful because the Guru's Punjabi is just a couple of generations away from old Punjabi which is itself closer to classical Sanskrit than to modern Punjabi. When Punjabi speakers write modern Punjabi in transliteration, they don't even use a standard system of spelling. This means major chaos. I really do not understand modern Punjabi. But another thing I have noticed is that when a katha makes use of the vocabulary and shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then it is easy to understand. When the katha takes off into personal and subjective directions, it is hard to understand. Guess which kathas i like best.

P/S We had an assistant granthi whose kathas in Punjabi were really good by my definition of "good." I could follow the flow of his thinking because he related EVERYTHING to the Shabad Guru. Then he disappeared. No one I knew at the gurdwara knew why he left. The man who replaced him comes from Delhi and wore a black turban and black vest (I have seen this kind of uniform on the Internet but don't know if it means he belongs to a particular group or not). He seemed to be driven around in a black SUV by other men in black turbans and vests and the SUV had a chanda on the back window.  His kathas are - as far as i can make out - when I listen - all about how we are always making mistakes and walking down the wrong path. Very negative, and hard to follow. His kathas are terrible. Original thinking is never as good as the Shabad itself. Apologies for this little rant and digression on my part.


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## Ecumenigal (Sep 13, 2010)

This discussion reminds me of the Catholic church's transition to using the local languages instead of Latin. It helped with membership numbers, but there are those that preferred the spiritual quality of the Latin and grieve its loss. 

I am a very serious Sikh investigator and for me the prospect of learning a new language is the most daunting thing. It's not that it's not a worthy endeavor, but that I have limits and challenges in my life that would make this task very difficult.


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## be_still (Nov 10, 2010)

I totally loved this post! I agree, finding more about the Sikh faith without the internet has been a trivial experience. I went to the Gurudwara, and saw a man walking, I asked what I do, and who I can speak with... and he looked at me, pointed and said "sit on left".. that was it. So, I sat on the left, for several hours, while everyone started coming in. I did not know what the people were singing. When they were reading the Guru Granth Sahib it was in English on the screen, but because my eyes were bad, I couldn't see it very well since I was in the back. 

I think the biggest problem with new Sikhs is that we don't know who or what to ask. I mean, I don't want to disrespect a culture, because to be fair, it is from India. But, the religion is so beautiful, and so universal, it should be open to all. 

I think the best course of action would be an "Introduction the the Sikh Faith" that could be available at the Gurdwaras during the week. A chance for new converts to ask questions, get in the swing of daily practice, etc..

I would love to talk with a Sikh and be able to study the faith with them so that I can get to know more.

On a side note, if there are any Sikh's around Fort Lauderdale, FL, I would love to see if they can teach me!


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## findingmyway (Nov 10, 2010)

be_still said:


> I totally loved this post! I agree, finding more about the Sikh faith without the internet has been a trivial experience. I went to the Gurudwara, and saw a man walking, I asked what I do, and who I can speak with... and he looked at me, pointed and said "sit on left".. that was it. So, I sat on the left, for several hours, while everyone started coming in. I did not know what the people were singing. When they were reading the Guru Granth Sahib it was in English on the screen, but because my eyes were bad, I couldn't see it very well since I was in the back.
> 
> I think the biggest problem with new Sikhs is that we don't know who or what to ask. I mean, I don't want to disrespect a culture, because to be fair, it is from India. But, the religion is so beautiful, and so universal, it should be open to all.
> 
> ...



I'm really sorry you had the experience you did. Where I am we have frequent interfaith days and education days for students/teacher trainees/police etc. I have taken many non-Sikh friends to Gurdwara as have others and its always been very welcoming. Unfortunately I am a little too far from you!! However, you can try phoning and seeing if the Gurdwara has someone who will guide you? Or next time you go, don't be afraid of approaching someone and asking questions-most people don't mind if its clear you are genuinely interested. There's a whole section in the new to Sikhism section about going to Gurdwara which Narayanjot Ji and Spnadmin ji kindly put together.

Finally here's how to say hello to make instant friends!
Sat sri akal, or if you're feeling brave
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Gora_pakora (Sep 2, 2012)

Hey I read back to the start of this topic. Did any groups or anything get created for people who want to learn together etc?


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## Awakeand Singh (Sep 3, 2012)

*Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?*

Point of greater interest - it was the _Romans_ who killed Jesus!


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## namritanevaeh (May 14, 2013)

Lionchild said:


> *language barrier for new sikhs?*
> So to make things even more interesting, the gurudwara doesnt even have any english words on the building or nearby to suggest that this is a sikh place of worship. Where is a curious mind supposed to go? Or the new convert? The internet first? come on, if the sikhims was really meant to be learned on the net, wouldn't the guru's mention it? I think not.
> If any one is interestied in this issue, I'm currently looking for fellow sikhs who are new (converts, or reborn) and sikhs who are open minded and can think "outside the box". I am thinking about setting up a group for this.



Hello ji!

I am probably not actually going to convert to being Sikh.  That said, I have a lot of interest in the religion these days AND moreover, a HUGE desire to learn Panjabi.  I have been working on it for 2-3 months and AM getting somewhere actually.  I eat, sleep and breathe Panjabi practically.  Good luck to you!  Just chiming in here...


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## Brother Onam (May 14, 2013)

*Re: Youth and Language barrier?*

An other approach to consider, since Gurbani really is wedded to the Punjabi language, would be Gurdwaras offering Punjabi language classes. I would attend gladly, as even among language instruction courses it is not easy to find good Punjabi offered. And nothing bad could come from spreading the use of Punjabi.


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## Ishna (May 14, 2013)

I've noticed Gurdwaras can be pretty pro-active about teaching Punjabi language to children, but not so much to adults.  I guess not many adults need/want to learn Punjabi, but some Punabi people want their kids to be taught.

There are some great resources out there for learning Punjabi, for adults, books, CDs, and internet. And I'm sure a 'help wanted' ad on the noticeboard will gain me a pronunciation partner. I had a friend (I know, shock!) who was trying to help teach me the lippi and I drove her to distraction with my inability to aspirate.. or is it to not aspirate... :gingerteakaur:

Namritanevaeh ji, good for you throwing yourself into the language and learning it on your own! Inspirational. :cheerleaders:


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## Kellysingh (Dec 15, 2013)

i agree. i convert to sikhi couple years back and like alot of new sikhs (or just me) ive flip flopped from the faith to other faiths and then realized this is where i belong.  The language barriar is huge.  i enjoy the kirtan and read english on screen  because it has the kirtan in punjabi,english and punjabi-english (english sound out of punjabi).  and when the person speak it all in punjabi. and not really anyone offering help to learn the language ect. ive tried asking and seems like your brushed off. even from english/punjabi convert of longer duration.  like they dont help much. if any. ive considered goin to another gurdwara that is a hr and half away instead of 20mins away.  i feel the language barriers need to be addressed.  ive tried learining from a childs book to learn and it hard to understand.. maybe it just me .


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## Ishna (Dec 15, 2013)

Hi KellySingh ji

I think you're referring to the _transliteration_ when you talk about the "English sound of the Punjabi".

Punjabi, like any language, is complicated in terms of it's rules.  Learning a new lanugage is no easy task, you really have to study and practice.  The language barrier can be off-putting when all you really want is to follow the religion/way of life.

There's no easy fix for this though.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 15, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Hi KellySingh ji
> 
> I think you're referring to the _transliteration_ when you talk about the "English sound of the Punjabi".
> 
> ...


 
hey sis, 

I do not believe Sikhism to be a religion, more a way of life, following that way of life, which I believe to be encapsulated at the start of the SGGS, for me, is not easy, frankly I have no desire to look any deeper till I have at least got a grip on the first ten lines. 

I believe that once you have embraced those magical ten lines, you then get blessed with a limus testing kit that will serve you well as you further your journey. 

The irony is, I believe you to be much, much further ahead than me, but not aware of it, the true meaning of modesty


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## namritanevaeh (Jan 18, 2014)

I agree (about it being hard).  I don't know honestly how far I'll get in this but my original aim was pleasantries.  How-do-you-do's and thank-yous and stuff.  I find that really pleases people and I already know them in several languages.  But quickly I learned more than that.  Then I was like "if I could help a lost child find his mother wouldn't that be cool?"...and thinking of talking about the weather and simple things like my favourite colour.  I'm THERE.  I know enough vocabulary I could at least ATTEMPT to help the lost child.  I know how to say it's raining or snowing (maybe not ALL aspects of meterology ;-)).  I know my favourite colours in Punjabi, how to indicate the # of kids I have and their ages, etc.  My GOAL right now is to be fluent.  I don't know how long that will take me but I have decided that I am going to a gurdwara every sunday to volunteer for 2 hours.  It is one where there aren't actually a lot of people who speak much English (so much the better for me).  I probably won't make any friends super quickly but gradually I hope I'll be told things like "could you pass me that" or "could you get me some milk from the fridge" and slowly get there with those phrases.  I want to practice more but...I'm shy.  :-/


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## lizziec (Dec 6, 2014)

Reading this makes me so incredibly thankful the gurdwara I attend does do English. Lots of Punjabi is spoken but English is as well, especially by the younger set. Thursday services are entirely in Punjabi, which is what I encountered on my first visit but Sundays are in Punjabi with the English translation projected on a screen. I've also been encouraged to seek out the library if I want to enhance my understanding so I can only assume that there are English translations in there.


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## Ishna (Dec 7, 2014)

You'll likely find a lot of books written in English in the library, too.  In my experience the library is where the real learning happens - the people who are interested in the meaning of Gurbani and what it is to live Sikhi are found in the quiet places, in the small Gurbani classes, rather than the langar hall or even Darbar Sahib (although these areas do serve their own purposes).


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## ActsOfGod (Dec 11, 2014)

Regarding English translations of Gurbani:

There is something unique about Gurbani in that it is multi-layered and very complex.  Gurbani has been described as an ocean, the deeper you dive, the more you discover how deep it is, and eventually you slowly come to realize that you don't even know how much you don't know.

The issue with translations into other languages like English, etc. is that it locks down the interpretation, as according to the person who performed the translation.  If anyone reads the English translation of the shabad, he or she should be aware that they are only getting a small part of the picture (a representation of one persons interpretation at one particular moment in time), a one-dimensional explanation of a multi-dimensional idea or thought.  It cannot convey the full meaning, nor can it evoke the emotion and feeling expressed in the poetry, nor transport the reader to the heavenly realms, or apply the salve to soothe pain, which the original Gurbani can do.

This is why it is so important to learn Gurmukhi and make every effort to read the original Gurbani.  It is difficult, even for Punjabi speakers, because the languages of the Guru Granth Sahib are not the same as modern Punjabi, they differ in grammar and syntax and vocabulary.  Some are very very difficult.  However, because of the nature or Gurbani (as Divine revelation), as the reader puts effort and concentration, Gurbani connects his or her soul to the Infinite, and then each word, each character, has deep personal meaning for the reader -- a meaning and connection that can never be obtained through the middle-man of a translation.

That being said, English translations are often useful as a starting point.  One can get the gist of what's being talked about and a very general and surface-level understanding.  These should be used as a starting point for further reflection, research, study, learning and introspection.

Spend as much time as possible with the Guru's Bani, connect with the Bani, make it a part of you, and wonders will happen in your life.

Guru Sahib Kirpa Karan.

AoG


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## ActsOfGod (Dec 11, 2014)

One other point about English translations: they are not always accurate.  Due to differences in vocabulary, a lot of times substitute words are used that cannot quite convey the meaning.  Sometimes this causes a minor deviation, other times it results in differences in meaning that are huge.

There are so many concepts and ideas that are extremely difficult to describe using the English language.  There is also a lot of debate about the real meanings of words, even in Punjabi itself, let alone English.


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## Ishna (Mar 3, 2015)

> There are so many concepts and ideas that are extremely difficult to describe using the English language. There is also a lot of debate about the real meanings of words, even in Punjabi itself, let alone English.



This 100%.

Another layer of complexity is that many shabads are witty, and require an understanding (or at least an awareness) of 16th century Indian politics, culture and religions to understand the underlying messages.


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