# Sikhi After Life



## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

Sat sri akaal 

lets discuss "Sikhi Afterlife "  in light of Gurbani,what you think ,kindly gave your views 

sri waheguru ji ki fateh ​


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2013)

how can we discuss it when none of us have experienced it, and some of us do not even believe in it!

call it what it is, death, the end, finito, time for wormfood.

somewhere here there is an excellent article by Baldev Singh on how it is clear in SGGS that there is no afterlife, I will find it for you and post a link, but the subject has been debated many many times.

What are your thoughts on the matter Harmanpreetji?


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## Abneet (Jul 31, 2013)

Well I'm going to type what I think in a small summary.

After a sikh dies, its depends on the sikhs actions in his/her life where that person will be heading afterlife.

"Those whose final thoughts are of the divine, merge eternally with the Lord of the Universe to dwell forever in the abode of radiant light."

And those who haven't become one with Waheguru will be continuously reincarnated until they have become One.

Also I'm pretty sure reincarnation is included in Bhagat Trilochan's shabad in the GGS.


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks Harry ji for your reply ...

so overall   we three main views 

1)Dharmic  ( birth -death cylcle   until Oneness, nirvaana(Nirbaan pad),satisfaction,perfection ) .
2)Abrahmic ( Heaven for some  -Hell for others).
3)Athiestic ?(The END ).


harry ji i have read Dr Baldev Singh ji bit , m not fully satisfied with it , its will be great to discuss it here .


*i just want a healthy discussion on topic not debate .
blessings


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Thanks Harry ji for your reply ...
> 
> so overall we three main views
> 
> ...


 

you seem to have missed out Sikhi..........


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

harry haller said:


> you seem to have missed out Sikhi..........



m here to learn :grinningsingh:


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2013)

"Those whose final thoughts are of the divine, merge eternally with the Lord of the Universe to dwell forever in the abode of radiant light."

so what happens to all those warrior Sikhs who died on the battlefield?hose whose final thoughts were 'must go for the crown jewels' before being hit by an arrow?

Dig deeper, past lives is simply your past, future lives, your future and the 8.4 million births are the number of potential personalities at your disposal.

There are many many quotes from the SGGS that confirm this, that confirm that we have only one life to find the connection, realise the connection and live through the connection. There is no second chance


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> m here to learn :grinningsingh:


 
well, we are all here to learn, why do you not kick off with your current understanding? we can learn from each other


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

Abneet said:


> "Those whose final thoughts are of the divine, merge eternally with the Lord of the Universe to dwell forever in the abode of radiant light."
> 
> And those who haven't become one with Waheguru will be continuously reincarnated until they have become One.
> 
> Also I'm pretty sure reincarnation is included in Bhagat Trilochan's shabad in the GGS.



thanks Abneet ji ,

so "final thought " means , our   thought at that moment  will decide ?  its like we get what we wish ?

sat nam


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

harry haller said:


> well, we are all here to learn, why do you not kick off with your current understanding? we can learn from each other



Hi harry ji ,

my current understanding "Sikhi  is  Dharmic" . 

Un-satisfaction leads to Birth death cycle .


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Hi harry ji ,
> 
> my current understanding "Sikhi is Dharmic" .
> 
> Un-satisfaction leads to Birth death cycle .


 
some questions.

Is Dharmic even a Sikh word? 

why would the Gurus reject practically every aspect of Vedicism, but embrace reincarnation? 

How can life be so precious if you get to have 8.4 million?

Even if what you are saying is correct, you, your being, the thing you call you, with your appetities and habits and way of doing things, your entire thinking and being will still be dead. You will still be dead as you know yourself, so reincarnation is just semantics, (not that..), in effect your death is your death, and even if after say 40 lives you get lucky, which if those 40 people gets to go to the lap of God? the first one? the one that liked fried chicken in life 4? 

Marvin Gaye wrote ' you are everything and everything is you', how do these 8.4 million different personalities represent you? are you now an 8.4 millionth of a person? is it like a lottery? can you get lucky? and if you have no recollection of your previous lives, what is the point anyway?


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2013)

Sikhism is among the dharmic paths. Having said that dharma has a meaning all of its own. Its connection with re-incarnation depends on where one stands on re-incarnation, not on where one stands with respect to the meaning of dharma.

We really do need an in-house expert on the philosophies of the subcontinent for the hundreds of years preceding Guru Nanak who knows what he/she is talking about. Someone who does not have an axe to grind. Someone who is not going to tell us Sikhi is an offshoot or a sect of Hinduism. Otherwise, we are getting ourselves twisted in our metaphysical knickers. 

harry ji - The idea of dharma is part of Guru Nanak's philosophy. The 84 lakh joon? I agree with you. You like the word "consonance." Dharma is another way of describing "consonance." Good topic for another thread.


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *harry haller*
> 
> 
> _some questions.
> ...


to me Dharma  sounds very cool,sweet  and it  appeared numerous times in Gurbani .


> Quote:
> why would the Gurus reject practically every aspect of Vedicism, but embrace reincarnation?


i know Guru Sahib Rejected All  Vedic Karam- Kand and brahmanised Rituals ,Calculations .

Guru Sahib refined impurities ,Gave us Pure /Truth  in the form of Guru  Granth Sahib ji . it no way means Guru Sahib rejected everything that  appeared in Vedas .





> How can life be so precious if you get to have 8.4 million?


Only in human life one can attain  Understanding and end duality .


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> Someone who does not have an axe to grind. .



it says all, perfectly expressed Admin ji .


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

> How can life be so precious if you get to have 8.4 million?



harryji , just found a related Shabad from Guru Granth Sahib ji 

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਪਉੜੀ  ॥ 
Pauri. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਫਫਾ  ਫਿਰਤ  ਫਿਰਤ  ਤੂ  ਆਇਆ  ॥ 
Ph: Thou hast come after long wanderings. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦ੍ਰੁਲਭ  ਦੇਹ  ਕਲਿਜੁਗ  ਮਹਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ॥ 
In this Dark age thou hast obtained the scarcely procurable human body. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਫਿਰਿ  ਇਆ  ਅਉਸਰੁ  ਚਰੈ  ਨ  ਹਾਥਾ  ॥ 
This opportunity shall not again come to thy hand. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਾਮੁ  ਜਪਹੁ  ਤਉ  ਕਟੀਅਹਿ  ਫਾਸਾ  ॥ 
Repeat Lord's Name then shall the death's noose be cut away. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਫਿਰਿ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਆਵਨ  ਜਾਨੁ  ਨ  ਹੋਈ  ॥ 
Thou shalt not come and go again and again, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਏਕਹਿ  ਏਕ  ਜਪਹੁ  ਜਪੁ  ਸੋਈ  ॥ 
by meditating on that One and One alone. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਰਹੁ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੇ  ॥ 
Have mercy, O Lord the Creator, 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਮੇਲਿ  ਲੇਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਬੇਚਾਰੇ  ॥੩੮॥ 
and blend poor Nanak with Thee. 
   </td></tr> <tr></tr></tbody></table>


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## Ishna (Jul 31, 2013)

Which ang is that paurhi from, bhaji?  We need to include the ang number when we post Gurbani here. 

I read the paurhi before reading the quote of Harry ji at the beginning of your post.  When I read the paurhi, i read it as reaffirming this one precious life, and I didn't read it at all with reference to any other lives.


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2013)

harry haller said:


> it is one of many shabads used by the anti reincarnation brigade, read it carefully, you will see.
> 
> I suppose in fairness I should post a shabad in favor of your argument, I don't mind, but its a bloody stupid way of having a debate.......



I am not sure why this thread is here separate from other threads related to re-incarnation. 

Yes it is a stupid way to have a debate. Very similar to throwing up a passage from the Bible to prove a point coming from Christianity. And I think insulting in its own way to Shabad Guru. The shabad requires a personal and serious attempt at vichaar/explanation so we know how it represents the posters point of view.

I am actually going to go back and delete, now that I can see what is happening here.

Thanks for your flagging this issue harry ji.

harmanpreet singh ji Please give your aarth of the shabad so we can have a discussion about it.

The one who posts the shabad gives the explanation, does not ask someone else to explain it for him/her as part of a debate, does not post smileys of tea-drinking mundas and nishan-waving kudis in that regard.


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2013)

harry haller said:


> how can we discuss it when none of us have experienced it, and some of us do not even believe in it!
> 
> call it what it is, death, the end, finito, time for wormfood.
> 
> ...



Back again to harry ji

Yes this subject has been discussed on many other threads. If we do not get something that is new and contribute to our learning beyond that of other threads I will need to take this one down. Let's make an effort. Thanks.


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## harmanpreet singh (Jul 31, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> harmanpreet singh ji Please give your aarth of the shabad so we can have a discussion about it.
> 
> The one who posts the shabad gives the explanation, does not ask someone else to explain it for him/her as part of a debate



Shabad clearly says ,


> ਫਫਾ  ਫਿਰਤ  ਫਿਰਤ  ਤੂ  ਆਇਆ  ॥
> Ph: Thou hast come after long wanderings.
> ਦ੍ਰੁਲਭ  ਦੇਹ  ਕਲਿਜੁਗ  ਮਹਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ॥
> In this Dark age thou hast obtained the scarcely procurable human body.



ie after wandering through so many  lower lifeforms one obtained this precious human body .



> ਨਾਮੁ  ਜਪਹੁ  ਤਉ  ਕਟੀਅਹਿ  ਫਾਸਾ  ॥
> Repeat Lord's Name then shall the death's noose be cut away.
> ਫਿਰਿ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਆਵਨ  ਜਾਨੁ  ਨ  ਹੋਈ  ॥
> Thou shalt not come and go again and again,



without naam  one will  follow same path of coming and going ie ( birth and death ) again .



so how is this shabad anti reincar ?


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2013)

harmanpreet singh ji

You get one more chance and then the thread will be deleted. Repeating a translation is not an vichaar of the shabad. So nothing is clearly stated. If anything I am seeing contradictions.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2013)

I put to all of you that Sikhi after life is nothing short of an excellent oxy{censored}.

But now I am curious, to my mind, Sikhi must be practiced during life, every breathing moment, so I would ask what aspect of Sikhi is practiced in the alleged afterlife?

Is everything perfect? are the five thieves dead? is temptation no more? what do you spend all day doing? Do they have Range Rovers?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Jul 31, 2013)

I know we are supposed to post full passages... (I'm not sure how to tell when one begins and when one ends... as a side note is it when it says 'First Mehl' that a new one begins??) Sorry for the long quote of Gurbani I wanted to make sure I copied the whole thing...

Anyway how one views reality is going to affect how they interpret Gurbani. Those who believe the physical word is 'IT' and that the creator is really referring to the Universe itself without any 'persona' then those people will naturally believe that when it says we 'merge' back with the creator, it really means the end for us and that our bodies become worm food. 

For those of us who believe that not matter but a universal field (consciousness itself perhaps) or some deeper nonphysical truth is the basis of reality and matter is the illusion, then to us (myself included) will interpret Gurbani to mean merging back with the creator in a conscious way (ie we transcend physical death). In fact, I believe that when it says we merge back with the ONE we are really just waking up to who we really are... because I believe that there really is only ONE in existence and we are the dream of the creator. - Hence there really is no death - because we were never separate from the ONE to begin with... and THAT I believe is what the truth is... 

What I have trouble with is all of the places Gurbani tells us that through naam etc we can transcend death... If it really means 'sorry mate you're gonna cease to exist and become worm food'... I don't see how there is any chance of transcending death (how could that even be a poetic meaning??'... and this one line gets to me every time I read it "To reach your true home when you die, you must conquer death while still alive." This to me (along with the rest of the passage I quoted below) seems to suggest that there IS a 'home' or place we go after death, and that the TRUE home is to unite back with the creator and that to conquer death (or death and rebirth) we must awaken to our true nature (which is spiritual and not merely physical) before we die. It even mentions that we need to realize our 'own self' by going within and recognizing the divine light within us all. I think that means we need to awaken to the fact that we are spiritual beings not just physical and as spirutual in nature we are part of that nonphysical creator. 

Or else if you go by what the atheists believe, it's a lot of meaningless poetry that seems to get people's hopes up of surviving physical death, when there really is no hope and our lives are really just by chance. It could have been said easier by just saying 'hey mate you might as well give up because when you're gone thats it and nothing you do matters because everyone who is here to witness what you do will also die and cease to exist and beocme worm food' 

The boat of 'truth' will ferry you across... across where???

The 'ONE' who formed the Universe... suggests that the Universe didn't just form itself without guidance. If it's a metaphor for 'truth' then why not use the word for 'underlying truth' instead?? Using this descriptor seems to suggest a persona who created.

"Without Virtue, it is useless, the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. O my mind, earn the profit before you return home." How can the mind return home if its exists as simply part of the body which has turned to dust? This suggests clearly, that with virtue the mind can transcend this. Because with or without virtue...the physical body will succumb to the same fate... so it's clearly talking about something else beyond the physical body... so if not our body, then just what exactly returns to its true home with virtue? 

Anyway this is just MY PERSONAL belief... I know there a many Sikhs on here who are athiest and are totally satisfied thinking that they will become worm food and that death is the end and everything goes black... but for me that just doesn't make sense. 

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 


Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. 

Siree Raag, First Mehl: 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ 


Nānak beṛī sacẖ kī ṯarī▫ai gur vīcẖār. 

O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥ 


Ik āvahi ik jāvhī pūr bẖare ahaŉkār. 

Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 


Manhaṯẖ maṯī būdī▫ai gurmukẖ sacẖ so ṯār. ||1|| 

Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 


Gur bin ki▫o ṯarī▫ai sukẖ ho▫e. 

Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace? 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 


Ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o rākẖ ṯū mai avar na ḏūjā ko▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥ 


Āgai ḏekẖ▫a▫u da▫o jalai pācẖẖai hari▫o angūr. 

In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ 


Jis ṯe upjai ṯis ṯe binsai gẖat gẖat sacẖ bẖarpūr. 

We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥ 


Āpe mel milāvahī sācẖai mahal haḏūr. ||2|| 

He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥ 


Sāhi sāhi ṯujẖ sammlā kaḏe na vesāra▫o. 

With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥ 


Ji▫o ji▫o sāhab man vasai gurmukẖ amriṯ pe▫o. 

The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥ 


Man ṯan ṯerā ṯū ḏẖaṇī garab nivār same▫o. ||3|| 

Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ 


Jin ehu jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā ṯaribẖavaṇ kar ākār. 

The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ 


Gurmukẖ cẖānaṇ jāṇī▫ai manmukẖ mugaḏẖ gubār. 

The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ 


Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4|| 

One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥ 


Gurmukẖ jinī jāṇi▫ā ṯin kīcẖai sābās. 

Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ 


Sacẖe seṯī ral mile sacẖe guṇ pargās. 

They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥ 


Nānak nām sanṯokẖī▫ā jī▫o pind parabẖ pās. ||5||16|| 

O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 


Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. 

Siree Raag, First Mehl: 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਮਿਲੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਹੈ ਏਹ ॥ 


Suṇ man miṯar pi▫āri▫ā mil velā hai eh. 

Listen, O my mind, my friend, my darling: now is the time to meet the Lord. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਸਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਹ ॥ 


Jab lag joban sās hai ṯab lag ih ṯan ḏeh. 

As long as there is youth and breath, give this body to Him. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਢਹਿ ਢੇਰੀ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹ ॥੧॥ 


Bin guṇ kām na āvī dẖėh dẖerī ṯan kẖeh. ||1|| 

Without virtue, it is useless; the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. ||1|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਲੈ ਲਾਹਾ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 


Mere man lai lāhā gẖar jāhi. 

O my mind, earn the profit, before you return home. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 


Gurmukẖ nām salāhī▫ai ha▫umai nivrī bẖāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the fire of egotism is extinguished. ||1||Pause|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗੰਢਣੁ ਗੰਢੀਐ ਲਿਖਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥ 


Suṇ suṇ gandẖaṇ gandẖī▫ai likẖ paṛ bujẖėh bẖār. 

Again and again, we hear and tell stories; we read and write and understand loads of knowledge, 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥ 


Ŧarisnā ahinis aglī ha▫umai rog vikār. 

but still, desires increase day and night, and the disease of egotism fills us with corruption. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਓਹੁ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲਵਾ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ 


Oh veparvāhu aṯolvā gurmaṯ kīmaṯ sār. ||2|| 

That Carefree Lord cannot be appraised; His Real Value is known only through the Wisdom of the Guru's Teachings. ||2|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਲਖ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਜੇ ਕਰੀ ਲਖ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਪੁ ॥ 


Lakẖ si▫āṇap je karī lakẖ si▫o parīṯ milāp. 

Even if someone has hundreds of thousands of clever mental tricks, and the love and company of hundreds of thousands of people - 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬਿਨੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਧ੍ਰਾਪੀਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੂਖ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ॥ 


Bin sangaṯ sāḏẖ na ḏẖarāpī▫ā bin nāvai ḏūkẖ sanṯāp. 

still, without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, he will not feel satisfied. Without the Name, all suffer in sorrow. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜੀਅਰੇ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੩॥ 


Har jap jī▫are cẖẖutī▫ai gurmukẖ cẖīnai āp. ||3|| 

Chanting the Name of the Lord, O my soul, you shall be emancipated; as Gurmukh, you shall come to understand your own self. ||3|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਵੇਚਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 


Ŧan man gur pėh vecẖi▫ā man ḏī▫ā sir nāl. 

I have sold my body and mind to the Guru, and I have given my mind and head as well. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਢੰਢੋਲਿਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥ 


Ŧaribẖavaṇ kẖoj dẖandẖoli▫ā gurmukẖ kẖoj nihāl. 

I was seeking and searching for Him throughout the three worlds; then, as Gurmukh, I sought and found Him. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੪॥੧੭॥ 


Saṯgur mel milā▫i▫ā Nānak so parabẖ nāl. ||4||17|| 

The True Guru has united me in Union, O Nanak, with that God. ||4||17|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ 


Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. 

Siree Raag, First Mehl: 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਰਣੈ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਆਸ ॥ 


Marṇai kī cẖinṯā nahī jīvaṇ kī nahī ās. 

I have no anxiety about dying, and no hope of living. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤੂ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਹੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਸਾਸ ਗਿਰਾਸ ॥ 


Ŧū sarab jī▫ā parṯipālahī lekẖai sās girās. 

You are the Cherisher of all beings; You keep the account of our breaths and morsels of food. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੂ ਵਸਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਨਿਰਜਾਸਿ ॥੧॥ 


Anṯar gurmukẖ ṯū vasėh ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o nirjās. ||1|| 

You abide within the Gurmukh. As it pleases You, You decide our allotment. ||1|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜੀਅਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ 


Jī▫are rām japaṯ man mān. 

O my soul, chant the Name of the Lord; the mind will be pleased and appeased. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਲਿ ਬੁਝੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 


Anṯar lāgī jal bujẖī pā▫i▫ā gurmukẖ gi▫ān. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

The raging fire within is extinguished; the Gurmukh obtains spiritual wisdom. ||1||Pause|| 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੰਕ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥ 


Anṯar kī gaṯ jāṇī▫ai gur milī▫ai sank uṯār. 

Know the state of your inner being; meet with the Guru and get rid of your skepticism. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥ 


Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār. 

To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥ 

Anhaḏ sabaḏ suhāvaṇe pā▫ī▫ai gur vīcẖār. ||2|| 

The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the Shabad is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥ 


Anhaḏ baṇī pā▫ī▫ai ṯah ha▫umai ho▫e binās. 

The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਹਉ ਸਦ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੈ ਤਾਸੁ ॥ 


Saṯgur seve āpṇā ha▫o saḏ kurbāṇai ṯās. 

I am forever a sacrifice to those who serve their True Guru. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਖੜਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੈਨਾਈਐ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥੩॥ 


Kẖaṛ ḏargėh painā▫ī▫ai mukẖ har nām nivās. ||3|| 

They are dressed in robes of honor in the Court of the Lord; the Name of the Lord is on their lips. ||3|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ 


Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel. 

Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥ 


Ŧarihu guṇ banḏẖī ḏehurī jo ā▫i▫ā jag so kẖel. 

The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਦੁਖਿ ਵਿਛੁੜੇ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਲਹਹਿ ਨ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੪॥ 


vijogī ḏukẖ vicẖẖuṛe manmukẖ lahėh na mel. ||4|| 

Those who separate themselves from the Lord wander lost in misery. The self-willed manmukhs do not attain union with Him. ||4|| 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚ ਭੈ ਰਾਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 


Man bairāgī gẖar vasai sacẖ bẖai rāṯā ho▫e. 

If the mind becomes balanced and detached, and comes to dwell in its own true home, imbued with the Fear of God, 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨ ਮਹਾਰਸੁ ਭੋਗਵੈ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਭੂਖ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ 


Gi▫ān mahāras bẖogvai bāhuṛ bẖūkẖ na ho▫e. 

then it enjoys the essence of supreme spiritual wisdom; it shall never feel hunger again. 



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੁ ਭੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥੧੮॥ 


Nānak ih man mār mil bẖī fir ḏukẖ na ho▫e. ||5||18|| 

O Nanak, conquer and subdue this mind; meet with the Lord, and you shall never again suffer in pain. ||5||18|| 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2013)

Akasha ji I am not going to reply to your post at this time. I am going to acknowledge and thank you for getting this thread back on a serious path.


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## Luckysingh (Jul 31, 2013)

This kind of topic always causes confusion and tends to sidetrack to reincarnation.
My question is ' if there is an afterlife, as in a place we are at after death, then how can we keep reincarnating' ??
Doesn't quite add up does it ?

What is primary and fundamental is what we do 'NOW' not for later or for the next life, but for the life we have now.
To me, this tells me-
-No point to just be doing good deeds of charity,etc.. so that you think you will be born in a better place next time.
- It doesn't mean that a prostitute is such because in her previous life she was a sex maniac and rapist.
- and neither does it mean that you are the reincarnation of your dear missed Grandad who died a few months before your birth!
I could go on but it will go off topic into reincarnation again !!

Getting back to the afterlife, I think the question really is -
'Is this life all there is ? and 'What will I really experience after death if anything' ?

My answer to this is that i shouldn't be worrying about the after life when i haven't fulfilled all that i can do or be in this life !!
Or better still, - I don't think that i have the right to question this when I am spending my whole life learning and fixing myself.
So when do or can I have the right to question this ??
After I have achieved and fixed myself by conducting on the highest order as per Guru.
I think that my life should be focused on trying to become Gurmukh as per gurbani whilst alive and not focused on where i shall be in my afterlife. If and when I become gurmukh, then I may have a much better idea of what happens next.

Let's say that to get to gurmukh status is the destination and train ride that i am on now. The gurmukh station is like the heart of the transit where all other lines join like we have London Euston, New York Grand central etc..  These are the stations where one has to stop at on longer journeys or they change lines for further destinations.
In the same way, you can't get to your further or end destination unless you first get to the Gurmukh station. Therefore, why try and plan or guess the line that will take you further when the only place it can officially be confirmed is the Gurmukh station ?

You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk (Aerosmith!)


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 31, 2013)

The initial question begs the meaning of "life" from the thread starter. Once we know its meaning, then only we can talk about afterlife.


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## spnadmin (Jul 31, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Sat sri akaal
> 
> lets discuss "Sikhi Afterlife "  in light of Gurbani,what you think ,kindly gave your views
> 
> sri waheguru ji ki fateh ​



Tejwant ji

I am just pulling up the OP so readers can see it without paging back for discussion.

Yes --- what is meant by "life" and by "afterlife" according to the intentions of the poster Harmanpreet Singh?


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## Ishna (Jul 31, 2013)

Akasha ji



> For those of us who believe that not matter but a universal field (consciousness itself perhaps) or some deeper nonphysical truth is the basis of reality and matter is the illusion, then to us (myself included) will interpret Gurbani to mean *merging back with the creator in a conscious way* (ie we transcend physical death).


 
This would required us to have a personal consciousness within us that is not a product of our physical bodies.  Is this what you believe? 


> In fact, I believe that when it says we merge back with the ONE we are really just waking up to who we really are... because I believe that there really is only ONE in existence and we are the dream of the creator. - Hence there really is no death - because we were never separate from the ONE to begin with... and THAT I believe is what the truth is...


 
No death and no birth either?  Do you have to die to merge back with the one, or can you "die while alive"?



> What I have trouble with is all of the places Gurbani tells us that through naam etc we can transcend death... If it really means 'sorry mate you're gonna cease to exist and become worm food'... I don't see how there is any chance of transcending death (how could that even be a poetic meaning??'... and this one line gets to me every time I read it "To reach your true home when you die, you must conquer death while still alive." This to me (along with the rest of the passage I quoted below) seems to suggest that there IS a 'home' or place we go after death, and that the TRUE home is to unite back with the creator and that to conquer death (or death and rebirth) we must awaken to our true nature (which is spiritual and not merely physical) before we die. It even mentions that we need to realize our 'own self' by going within and recognizing the divine light within us all. I think that means we need to awaken to the fact that we are spiritual beings not just physical and as spirutual in nature we are part of that nonphysical creator.


 
See I get a completely different interpretation of this shabad.


The boat of truth ferrys you across the turbulance of the world-ocean, of the ups-and-downs of life - not between death and the afterlife.  It's the mind that drowns in everyday struggles and duality and maya.  Without Guru, how can we have peace in this world-ocean?  "In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting."  The past is calm in hindsight but the future is a jungle of fearful uncertainty. "He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand."  Close at hand here and now!  "Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||"  Does it say Please rid me of my pride and kill me [i.e. kill me physically so I can merge with You?"  "One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||"  We're already merged, we're already in the ocean of light, we just need to realise it.  "O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16|| "  PS, this was the last line of the first Shabad. 

We need a member with teh smartz to translate and analyse this tuk for us please, as it is the only line that remotely even suggests anything continuing after life IMHO:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥ 


Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār. 

To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive. 

However if you're dead while alive you've already died.



> Or else if you go by what the atheists believe, it's a lot of meaningless poetry that seems to get people's hopes up of surviving physical death, when there really is no hope and our lives are really just by chance. It could have been said easier by just saying 'hey mate you might as well give up because when you're gone thats it and nothing you do matters because everyone who is here to witness what you do will also die and cease to exist and beocme worm food'


 
Humbly I disagree 100%.



> "Without Virtue, it is useless, the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. O my mind, earn the profit before you return home." How can the mind return home if its exists as simply part of the body which has turned to dust?


 
Precisely, so perhaps 'return home' doesn't mean what you think it means (or what I think it means).

:whatzpointkudi:


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I want to congratulate you for your understanding of the Shabad with which I happen to agree.

I must admit that I am no expert in Gurbani but I will give it a shot. 

Death is the fear that most of the religions have instilled in their followers. Hence the fear of hell, lake of fire etc etc are thrown at the followers by the men who claim to have direct link to some deity. 

That is why people call themselves God fearing rather than God loving. In fact I wrote a piece about that some years ago from Sikhi view point,” Are we God fearing or God loving”?

Sikhi is opposite to that. It teaches us to embrace death by living life at its full potential.

My thoughts are in Blue.

The following Shabad starts on page 20:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
ਮਰਣੈ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਆਸ ॥
Marṇai kī cẖinṯā nahī jīvaṇ kī nahī ās.
I have no anxiety about dying, and no hope of living.

One who is in consonance with Ik Ong Kaar is not worried about death nor about living a very long (eternal) life.

Here is the verse you wanted to be explained:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

Even before dying, the person is fearful about death knowing quite well that it is inevitable.

Sant Singh Khalsa has added TRUE to home on his own, whereas "home" here means, "The last place".

Here are some more examples from Gurbani. They are one liners just because of the subject being discussed

Guru Arjan says in the following on page 296:

ਪੰਨਾ 296, ਸਤਰ 19
ਮਰਣੁ ਮਿਟੈ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਬਿਨਸਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਕਲੇਸ ॥
Maraṇ mitai jīvan milai binsahi sagal kales.
Conquer death and obtain eternal life; all your troubles will depart.

Once one conquers the fear of death, one actually begins to relish life.

Here Guru Amardas says here about the fear of death on page 555

ਮਰਣੈ ਤੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਡਰੈ ਜੀਵਿਆ ਲੋੜੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
Marṇai ṯe jagaṯ darai jīvi▫ā loṛai sabẖ ko▫e.
The world is terrified of death; everyone longs to live.

The whole world is terrified of death. Everyone is looking for the elixir to live for ever.


I hope this clears things a bit.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2013)

> ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
> Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
> To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.


 
To me this 'dying whilst living' is about being liberated whilst alive or Jivan mukht.
The old Vedanta schools all had mukhti and stages explained which were all about liberation after you die or being liberated in the after life.
However, the term jivan mukht refers the same liberation or salvation whilst alive !!

How does one do this ??
Simple, the problem is 'EGO', once this ego is completely killed then you are liberated, there is no more me,me, and you, it ALL becomes Ek and Him.
So dying whilst alive is about being completely egoless.

So how can this true home be reached after you die as mentioned in the shabad ??
Remember, that death itself is only acknowledged if there is Ego(confusing!)
The Ego is what cause the duality and separation. Therefore, when there is no Ego or separation, then there is no death.
Thus , one shall Already be in the True Home as well. (True- being his home, him, the whole Ek onkaar..the Truth..etc)


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> To me this 'dying whilst living' is about being liberated whilst alive or Jivan mukht.
> The old Vedanta schools all had mukhti and stages explained which were all about liberation after you die or being liberated in the after life.
> However, the term jivan mukht refers the same liberation or salvation whilst alive !!
> 
> ...



Lucky ji,

Guru Fateh.

That is fine and dandy but this is not what the verse says:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ *ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ* ॥
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

The one in bold literally means " One lives his/her life immersed in the fear of death unless one "kills" this fear". In other words the fear of death makes him/her," A dead man/woman walking". It is tough to relish life in this manner. No where in the verse TRUE HOME is mentioned.


If you understand Gurmukhi, this is how Prof. Sahib Singh explains the verse:  

ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ = ਜਿਸ ਘਰ ਵਿਚ। ਮੁਇਆ = ਮਰ ਕੇ, ਆਖ਼ਰ ਨੂੰ। ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ = ਜਿਸ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ ਪਈਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਰੁ = ਮੌਤ, ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡਰ। ਮਾਰਿ = ਮਾਰ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ।
*ਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਮਾਰ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਆਖ਼ਰ ਪੈਣਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ*।

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Lucky ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for explaining.
I am correct in thinking that it is the fear of death that should be removed ?
As mentioned about EGO above, I also think that this fear itself is only present because of Ego, since the ego is our identifier(the me!) to our time bound body.
I feel that killing ego is a huge component in killing the fear. We know that death is a guaranteed certainty for all of us and we should welcome it with loving arms as the divine Hukam or calling for 'times out'


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2013)

> *AKASHA*
> For those of us who believe that not matter but a universal field (consciousness itself perhaps) or some deeper nonphysical truth is the basis of reality and matter is the illusion, then to us (myself included) will interpret Gurbani to mean merging back with the creator in a conscious way (ie we transcend physical death). In fact, I believe that when it says we merge back with the ONE we are really just waking up to who we really are... because I believe that there really is only ONE in existence and we are the dream of the creator. - Hence there really is no death - because we were never separate from the ONE to begin with... and THAT I believe is what the truth is...
> 
> "To reach your true home when you die, you must conquer death while still alive." This to me (along with the rest of the passage I quoted below) seems to suggest that there IS a 'home' or place we go after death, and that the TRUE home is to unite back with the creator and that to conquer death (or death and rebirth) we must awaken to our true nature (which is spiritual and not merely physical) before we die. It even mentions that we need to realize our 'own self' by going within and recognizing the divine light within us all. I think that means we need to awaken to the fact that we are spiritual beings not just physical and as spirutual in nature we are part of that nonphysical creator.
> ...


Akasha ji  , . thanks for expressing  ,MY VIEW !!!! i  feel  these fully resonates with Guru Granth Sahib ji .


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## japjisahib04 (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
> 
> To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.
> However if you're dead while alive you've already died.
> Humbly I disagree 100%.



Let us first know what is death and life through the lense of gurbani.  In our nitnem we daily recite, 'aakha jeevan visrai mar jaon' (when I delve in gurbani I live and forgetting I die) or 'Nanak jit vaila visrai mera suwami *** vailai mar jao' - When I forget you Oh my beloved I die. SGGS 562.4 - Now do I physically die by ignoring the gurbani and or am not living? This mean through these pankties, guru sahib is trying to convey the definition of janam and maran and is referring to spiritual death or spiritual living and not physical death.   

Further definition of janam maran has been beautifully depicted in following sabds,'ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਕਹੈ ਜਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਸੋ ਕਾਚੋ ਕਾਚਾ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਮਿਟੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੇਵ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.288.13 or ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥  What survives and take birth again and again is the separation and Milan THOUGHTS - Meri, Meri. Even Khushwant Singh echoes the sentiment of Sura XXV11, 2 of the Koran : "He who turneth away from the path of Allah is dead.

Gurbani further clarifies the meaning of  'ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ'. ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਏਹੋ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ - attachment to the body & mind is the cause and is the cycle of physical birth and death (tossing and turning). This notion is not only stressed in this particular sabd but this notion of "Deh-Adhyaas"[I am the body], is repeated over and over in all Gurbani. This is the root cause of ego (Haumei)-the crux of all probems. Based on this guru sahib says,  ' ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ by keeping an eye on others wealth or conspiring to capture others wealth, every moment I die and am reborn and yell like a dog or bite like a snake.   I don't expect whether people judge me as good or bad but when I am not at peace within myself, I don't take it like living but dead. So as per gurbani 'aava gavan' - alleged reincarnation is spiritual death or living and not physical death.  

Finally guru sahib declars, 'ਮਤੁ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵਦਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮੁਇਆਸੁ ॥ entangle with dilemma (death) no one is living.

best regards
sahni mohinder


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

I really can't believe how many people here think this is IT.  

Ishna Ji, to answer your question, yes that's exactly what I believe... that the BASE of the Universe is NOT MATTER.  But ONE Universal field... pure consciousness.  I do not think consciousness is merely a product of matter.  



> We're already merged, we're already in the ocean of light, we just need to realise it.


  EXACTLY!!!!!!!    Some people describe us as being like a drop of water that is away from the ocean... the thing is... we never left the ocean!  We just forgot where we were (thanks to this transient illusion).  

Due to some experiences I had... I TRULY wholeheartedly believe that there is existence beyond the physical.  Maybe it would be better to describe it as some other higher dimension (that would sound more sciencey.... but either way I think the physical body is what is transient and is just a vehicle for interacting with this physical world.  The part of us that makes us US.... is beyond the physical).

For however many athiest SIkhs there are out there, there are many more who believe that this life is not IT.  And it just proves my point that whatever side of the coin you sit on, you will interpret it differently...  

But as you pointed out, it's hard to look at that one line from an Athiest point of view... In order to reach your true home AFTER you die, you must conquer death while in this life... (paraphrased).  It's obviously making a distinction between this lifetime and what happens after it.  

Due to personal experiences and reasons, I can not and will never go to the Athiest camp.  Its like a child who was just told there is no Santa Claus... he can never go back to believing there is when he is... it can never be the same.  I have had such a personal experience spiritually that will never allow me to believe that there really is nothing except the physical and this one life and then ....blackness ceasing to exist and worm food. 

Some of you may be happy and totally expecting a blanket of blackness to hit you when you die... and then you are no more... all your memories and wisdom and who you were just cease to exist.  I really hope you will be surprised at what happens (in a good way).

Again, these are MY beliefs... I am not trying to change the Athiests. Just show my views...  I asked though around my Sangat here locally and ALL replied they believe in God, they believe we are more than the physical and that we transcend death  and they believe in the birth / death cycle of reincarnation.  They are ALL Punjabi Sikhs born in India and moved here....


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2013)

> I asked though around my Sangat here locally and ALL replied they believe in God, they believe we are more than the physical and that we transcend death and they believe in the birth / death cycle of reincarnation. They are ALL Punjabi Sikhs born in India and moved here....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Do they celebrate pooranmashi too?  or shangrandh, do they light candles? do they have a plethora of pictures of strange indian men in Mughal style turbans that they pray too? Do they practice rituals and ceremonies? Is the Ardass full of requests for little mintu's forthcoming driving test?

If the answer is yes, then I would not expect anything less lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Do they celebrate pooranmashi too? or shangrandh, do they light candles? do they have a plethora of pictures of strange indian men in Mughal style turbans that they pray too? Do they practice rituals and ceremonies? Is the Ardass full of requests for little mintu's forthcoming driving test?
> 
> If the answer is yes, then I would not expect anything less lol lol lol lol


 

I think the answer to the above is no to all of them (they are NOT Hindu and as far as I know none celebrate Hindu things)... and many are devout and some of them are Amritdhari.  They ALL have a strong belief in Waheguru Ji, in our spirituality and existence beyond the physical.  

I am actually surprised Harry Ji, that you would actually put not one but 4 laughing smileys at someone else's beliefs just because they don't agree with yours... 

There are far more Sikhs who DO believe in spirituality than that don't... and it has been brought to my attention that this site is managed by a good number from the 'Sikh Missionary' which are all Athiest... so that explains a lot.  I didn't know about the mass exodus in 2009-2010 of the devout.  I thought this was a Sikh site... not an Athiest site... which means not ridiculing each other's interpretations.  I always out in my posts that these are MY beliefs... I never put laughing smileys to anyone else's posts just because they don't believe the same interpretation as I do.


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

> Some people describe us as being like a drop of water that is away from the ocean... the thing is... we never left the ocean! We just forgot where we were (thanks to this transient illusion).


 
But there is no we. Only IT!!! There is no separation, no individuality. Individuality is false! That's why there can be no afterlife, because it would by default require us to be eternally separate from the Creator, eternally stuck in the illusion of haumai (separation).

IMHO, from what I've learned so far.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> But there is no we. Only IT!!! There is no separation, no individuality. Individuality is false! That's why there can be no afterlife, because it would be default require us to be eternally separate from the Creator, eternally stuck in the illusion of haumai (separation).


 

EXACTLY THIS is how I am thinking... WE (as in all of us colelctively) ARE the creator..... and since the creator is BEYOND birth and death... we also are beyond birth and death! It's not an afterlife as per some paradise etc... It's awakening back to who we really are. But we *don't* *cease to exist.* I liken it to awakening from a dream or amnesia and that moment where we realize hey I REMEMBER!!!

There is a quote in Gurbani I cant find right now that actually says when we realize 'He is me' - This is saying it right there.


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

Akasha said:


> EXACTLY THIS is how I am thinking... WE (as in all of us colelctively) ARE the creator..... and since the creator is BEYOND birth and death... we also are beyond birth and death! It's not an afterlife as per some paradise etc... It's awakening back to who we really are. But we *don't* *cease to exist.* I liken it to awakening from a dream or amnesia and that moment where we realize hey I REMEMBER!!!
> 
> There is a quote in Gurbani I cant find right now that actually says when we realize 'He is me' - This is saying it right there.


 
LOL this is hilarious how you and I keep agreeing and disagreeing at the same time! I think essentially we aren't too far from each other, the details are symantics.

I don't think there is any "I" to say "hey I remember". But what would I know? :sippingcoffee:


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> LOL this is hilarious how you and I keep agreeing and disagreeing at the same time! I think essentially we aren't too far from each other, the details are symantics.
> 
> I don't think there is any "I" to say "hey I remember". But what would I know? :sippingcoffee:


 

Exactly! LOL  Logically speaking... if we are all collectively the ONE Universal Creator God... and God is beyond birth and death, then to me that just doesn't say everything goes black and we cease to exist. (we cease to exist as an individual that's different)

Think of it like a dream at night... you are in fact ALL of the characters... and when you wake in the morning, you realize you were all the characters.  Thsoe characters individually are gone (maybe even forgotten), but in reality they did not 'die' because they were really you all the time.  They never actually existed as individuals... That's how I think.... And that thinking is Spiritual, NOT Athiest. Athiest thinking is that there is nothing beyond the physical and that when we die we are worm food and cease to exist alltogether...


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

I think I agree with most of what you're saying Akasha ji, but I'm not sure where why the atheist stuff keeps coming up?

Atheism
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

But we're talking about the afterlife.  I still maintain that WE don't go on to an afterlife.  We cease to exist.  Our carbon is reabsorbed into the world and our energy disperses into the ether.  The Creator continues on regardless, for eternity.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> I think I agree with most of what you're saying Akasha ji, but I'm not sure where why the atheist stuff keeps coming up?
> 
> Atheism
> 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
> ...


 
Yup I agree with you 100%  us as individuals cease to exist... but that part inside that makes us able to 'think' and reason and question 'why are we here' that part - the consciousness is what does not cease to exist.  The same as the dream analogy I used.  While you are your dream character at night, you know of no other existence except as that character.  But when you wake in the morning, you are still you... you didn't 'die' you just woke up and remembered.  You... the thinking feeling part of you will not cease to exist.  Your body?  yup... for sure.  The physical aspects of 'feelings' caused by chemicals in the brain... yup those will be gone too... but underneath all of that... you contain the divine light.  We all do.  

Another analogy... take a curtain and cut 5 holes, and put your fingers through... each one appears to operate independantly... take away the curtain and you realize that all 5 were really just ONE.  Those 5 didn't 'die' or cease to exist... They continue on as part of the ONE because in reality they always were part of that ONE.  

Athiest comes into it because they don't believe in a conscious creator... aka Waheguru Ji.  They believe in Waheguru Ji as just a word or concept used to describe the workings of nature.  It goes hand in hand with the with the idea of life after life... because Athiests believe in only the physical world they can touch and see and taste and smell and hear.


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

I get your analogies but something still isn't sitting right but I can't put my, erm, finger on it.  Have discussed as far as I can with my puny mind at this late hour.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2013)

harry ji ,Ishna ji i wanna ask do you believe in Soul (aatma )? means do we have a soul ?


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2013)

Akasha said:


> I am actually surprised Harry Ji, that you would actually put not one but 4 laughing smileys at someone else's beliefs just because they don't agree with yours...
> .


ya ,hw  such non sincere stuff  of ridiculing once s belief is  being allowed , i feel moderator should take notice .


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2013)

> I am actually surprised Harry Ji, that you would actually put not one but 4 laughing smileys at someone else's beliefs just because they don't agree with yours...



Hmm thats not strictly true now is it, is it my view that we should not as Sikhs

1. celebrate the full moon
2. light candles
3. pray to pictures of the Gurus who have made it quite clear that no visual representation should ever be made or worshiped.
4. engage in pointless rituals. 
5. ask Creator for anything. 

or is it at the very foundations of Sikhism?

Now, if certain people, and lets face it. a lot of Gurdwaras celebrate the moon, wish to go down the above path, then it is no surprise that they would also embrace another good old Vedic philosophy, reincarnation. 

Do I laugh at such people? yes, in fact I have increased my smileys! I laugh at them because although reincarnation is subject to personal choice, the above numbered points are not, there can be no argument about them, so embracing the above and attempting to  shoehorn them all into Sikhism is , in my view, quite hilarious, why not just embrace Hinduism instead?

I would not laugh at a monkey, and I would not laugh at a bear , but I probably would laugh at a bear dressed as a monkey.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

harry haller said:


> I would not laugh at a monkey, and I would not laugh at a bear , but I probably would laugh at a bear dressed as a monkey.


 
Hmmm or how about an Athiest dressed as a Sikh??

Fact remains there are FAR more Sikhs who ARE spiritual than there are who are Athiest.  Should they all start sending you laughing smileys??

You assumed that because these people in my Sangat believe in a spiritual existence and view Gurbani in that light, that they are wrong and somehoware Hindu wannabes... when they are not.  What if it's you that is wrong in the Athiestic interpretation of Gurbani??


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2013)

There are things worse than the use of smileys during serious discussion of beliefs.

The label "atheist' is thrown about recklessly on many internet forums, including Sikh forums. And the same goes for this thread.

There is a real danger in that. The primary danger is that it substitutes name-calling for rational debate. Name-calling labels a person or an idea as if the name and the truth are one and the same. Name-calling absolves the name-caller from taking responsibility for looking further into the truth.  


3 scenarios

Atma Kaur does not agree with 3 different Sikhs. Atma ji ponders:

Puneet Kaur does not believe in reincarnation. Atheists do not believe in reincarnation. Therefore Puneet Kaur must be an atheist. 

Atma''s conclusion is neither logical nor factual. Of the entire universe of those who do not believe in reincarnation, some are atheists and some may believe in a deity. Christians and Muslims renounce reincarnation; they believe in a deity. 

Satnam Kaur does not believe in reincarnation. Therefore she must not believe that a soul continues after death. She sounds like an atheist.

Atma's conclusion is not logical because something important is missing. Atma never bothered to check whether Satham believes there is a soul that persists after death. Satnam may have a different idea about the life of the soul, if she in fact believes in a soul.

Harjas Kaur does not accept the idea of coming and going through 84 lakh joon. Therefore she must not believe in reincarnation. Could she be an atheist?

How does Atma know that Harjas does not accept a view of reincarnation that is different from Atma's. There are several. 

More important. Is belief in a soul or in life after death a necessary condition for one to believe in God? Does belief in God require belief in a soul? Does belief in a soul require belief in life after death in any form?

The problem? Atma Kaur's conclusions may or may not be based in truth, and they are not logical.

There is, from the perspective of simple logic, no difference between calling out "atheist" and calling out "heretic" "slanderer" or "communist" because someone else's world-view or a religious point differs from one's own. Majority agreement does not make something more logical or true.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Hmm thats not strictly true now is it, is it my view that we should not as Sikhs
> 
> 1. celebrate the full moon
> 2. light candles
> ...



harry ji ,no one here supports  above mentioned  things , so to me it  seems  an attempt to divert discussion .


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2013)

Akasha ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sikhi is a learning process where disagreements happen all the times. This is the reason we are called Sikhs, and as Sikhs, we learn, unlearn and relearn all the times. I am sure it has happened in your life as in mine and in many others’ who call themselves Sikhs. We, including yourself will keep on having disagreements and you may even have some disagreements with the people in your own Gurdwara Sangat as you grow spiritually in your Sikhi journey which is natural and rather a must.

I know I have repeated the same many a times before but this is part of my Nitnem of awareness so I do not become a mere parrot but a pragmatic person with Gurmat.

Guru Gobind Singh who bestowed Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to us as our last Guru could have given us the interpretation on a platter but the fact is that he did not. If he had, then we would not be having this discussion today. 

In my opinion and I may be wrong, the reason he did not do that is for us to discover Gurbani by ourselves with time. As Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a living Guru, its beauty is that its meaning changes with time. It has happened to me several times, hence I often use the word learning, unlearning and relearning.

You write:



> There are far more Sikhs who DO believe in spirituality than that don't... and it has been brought to my attention that this site is managed by a good number from the 'Sikh Missionary' which are all Athiest... so that explains a lot. I didn't know about the mass exodus in 2009-2010 of the devout. I thought this was a Sikh site... not an Athiest site... which means not ridiculing each other's interpretations. I always out in my posts that these are MY beliefs..



Akasha ji,

I am a bit confused and appalled at the same time as you have claimed/accused many of the members of this family of which you are part of as Atheists because there is a disagreement amongst us which as mentioned before is part of the Sikhi journey.

What made you come to the decision about who believes in spiritualty and who does not? Neither yourself, myself nor any other will be ever able to find that out because only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. So, this is a false premise on your part.

You say:



> ... and it has been brought to my attention that this site is managed by a good number from the 'Sikh Missionary' which are all Athiest... so that explains a lot. I didn't know about the mass exodus in 2009-2010 of the devout. I thought this was a Sikh site... not an Athiest site...



Now, let’s move back a bit and check the facts out.

1.	No one here has ever accused you of not being a Sikh.

2.	You have accused many Sikhs of being Atheists.

3.	The members on this site have always been encouraging to your taking the Sikhi path and always made you feel member of this one global family.

4.	Any time you had questions about Sikhi, they were responded to in the best possible manner with the knowledge the members have.

5.	When you decided to take Khandei de Pahul, I was the first one to ask you to think about it but as I came to know that you had already made up your mind, I and many others admired your determination and encouraged you to do so.

6.	We are all excited about you for taking this “plunge”.

7.	We even felt very happy when you put your Keski on and shared some tips with you.

1.	Which Atheist site as you accused SPN of would do that?

2.	How did you come to the conclusion that this site is managed by the ‘Sikh Missionary’, your words?

3.	What made you claim that they (we in your implication) are Atheists?

Lastly, SPN is a Sikh site and the fastest growing one in this cyber world. If SPN were an Atheist site, then it would not happen in this manner. This is the only site that allows open dialogues, non-moderation of the posts before they are posted unlike other Sikh Sites. 

This is the only site that gives the freedom of speech to all. SPN is the least moderated Sikh site in the cyber world , the way it should be because Sikhi encourages the freedom of expression how opposite/bizarre they may be to some.

You are the proof of that. We will be all here for you as part of one family in all aspects of life. This is the way this site has been built up, as one large global family and like in all families, disagreements are inevitable. And in this special family they are rather welcome so a dialogue, a conversation can take place rather than food fights.

I want to wish you all the best in your Sikhi journey and please be prepared for more disagreements in our understanding of Gurbani because that is the way it is.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 1, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> More important. Is belief in a soul or in life after death a necessary condition for one to believe in God? Does belief in God require belief in a soul? Does belief in a soul require believe in life after death in any form?
> .



ya this point need discussion ,

is belief in Soul (aatma ) ,required  in Sikhi ? and  What Guru Granth Sahib says about it .


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> ya this point need discussion ,
> 
> is belief in Soul (aatma ) ,required  in Sikhi ? and  What Guru Granth Sahib says about it .



There is a recent thread on that point 

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/41154-soul-in-sikhi.html


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2013)

Tejwant ji

One needs only to check threads on other forums, and then multiply that by the private messages sent back and forth on any or all forums regarding the exodus of the devout and the spiritual corruption of SPN. 

This is a natural phenomenon on the Internet, and it is the downside of the idea of a "global village," because of the village mentality. All goes to illustrate my earlier point about name calling. 

Here are some names individual SPN members have been called. I will edit and add to the list as more come to mind: Heretic, guru nidak, slanderer, follower of Kala Afgana, Darshan Singh groupie,, atheist, Lal, anti-panthic, enemy of the quom, ..... I am leaving space to add here  

Thanks for reminding me that the Sikh Missionary (I am not sure which College) is also on the list.

Truly droll however was the one accusation that not only are we anti-panthic guru nindaks, but we are so polite about it. 

All this insider knowledge about what is panthic and what other people really believe rivals the searcher of hearts himself.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

I was actually informed by someone who left in 2010... about the Sikh Missionary movement... I wasn't even a member then, nor have I read any posts on other forums...

As for the disagreements... I am all for agreeing to disagree... it's when people equate those of us who are spiritual in our interpretation and say that we are trying to be 'Hindu' (essentially saying that the Sikhs who are spiritual are also the same ones who would participate in Hindu rituals) and adding laughing smileys that hurts me. 

Just as you are very sincere in your panthic view and interpretation, I am just as sincere in my spiritual view and interpretation.  I was the one who initially said that whatever side of that coin you sit on, will depend on how you interpret Gurbani.  I never name called... the term 'Athiest' is not meant as derogatory but just as a descriptor of someone who does not believe in life after this life, soul, creator... I always add to my posts that my views are MY views... I never mock someone else's beliefs (like Harry did) by suggesting that the people in my Sangat here are participating in all kinds of Hindu rituals simply because they believe that there is more to the Universe than the physical... and then even replied a second time insinuating that to believe in the spiriutal aspects of Sikhi is really the same as 'dressing as a Hindu' and adding that he would add even more laughing smileys... and having an Admin 'like' that comment - that is why I got upset.... 

Essentially he was insinuating that his interpretation was correct, we're wrong, and those of us who oppose it are not real Sikhs... we're just wannabe Hindus.... I am sure that the Amritdhari members of my Sangat (some very devout older Auntys etc) would feel very hurt by his comments...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2013)

> Hmmm or how about an Athiest dressed as a Sikh??



I would not know, I am not an Atheist, I believe in Akal Purakh, the unseen, unborn and undead, named the truth, as stated in Mool Mantra.



> Fact remains there are FAR more Sikhs who ARE spiritual than there are  who are Athiest.  Should they all start sending you laughing smileys??



I laugh a lot, at a lot of things, somethings I find quite funny, in any situation, I find making people laugh helps, be it a man with his hands round my throat, or sitting in the back of a police car in cuffs, its how I get through life, having said that, the first time I laughed when my wife was angry, she gave me a look that suggested it did not go down well, she thought I was laughing at her, I guess maybe you thought I was laughing at you, if so, I apologise.



> You assumed that because these people in my Sangat believe in a  spiritual existence and view Gurbani in that light, that they are wrong  and somehoware Hindu wannabes... when they are not.  What if it's you  that is wrong in the Athiestic interpretation of Gurbani??



Not quite, the point I am making is that Vedic philsophy has penetrated Sikhism to the absolute core, at the highest level. I have no problem with reincarnation being a Sikh philosophy, I have no problem with Sikh spiritualism, my writings to you have always been , I feel, quite friendly, humerous, supportive, even apologetic, yet by return, I sense some sort of issue with me or my lifestyle, 

Your description of this website, which I find to be a lone voice of reason in a world full of 'just do your path and have faith in Guruji, and everything will be fine, your all desires will be fulfilled', I find quite bemusing, we are all guests here in someone elses house, 

Also, which mass exodus are you referring to?


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2013)

Akasha ji

What are you saying?



> There are far more Sikhs who DO believe in spirituality than that don't... and it has been brought to my attention that this site is managed by a good number from the 'Sikh Missionary' which are all Athiest... so that explains a lot. I didn't know about the mass exodus in 2009-2010 of the devout. I thought this was a Sikh site... not an Athiest site... which means not ridiculing each other's interpretations. I always out in my posts that these are MY beliefs.




"I always out in my posts that these are MY beliefs." If you don't believe all the rest of the quote, why did you say it as if it is true?
What do you mean by Spirituality? "There are far more Sikhs who DO believe in spirituality" How many are on either side of the spirituaiity divide?
Who are these people? "This site is managed by a good number from the Sikh Missionary"
What does this mean?  "A good number from the Sikh Missionary (sic: College?) which are all ATHEIST. What makes Sikh Missionary  ATHEIST."
What does this mean? "I thought this site was a Sikh site, not an ATHEIST site.

Yes these are YOUR opinions. Why are you surprised by negative feedback when any member here happens to be on the other side of the spirituality divide as you define spirituality?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

My post was in response to Harry's... where he basically called my Sangat Hindu wannabes for believing in more than just the physical.  

That was supposed to be 'put' not 'out' typo... I was referring to the fact that even though I always put that those are my beliefs and that we will be on opposite sides of the coin, others are replying in an attacking way by typing as if they are absolute correct.  Neither side can prove to the other.... If you dont believe in nonphysical reality or aspect to creation, you will interpret Gurbani one way... it doesn't mean that your way is THE way.  Where I always state that fact, others seem to instead attack and make their way seem as THE way.  

Anyway I don't want to argue on this anymore... I believe we exist beyond death... period. I believe we are spiritual in nature, not just physical....period.  SOme of you believe the opposite that's fine... but my beliefs don't make me a Hindu, and it doesn't mean I do Hindu rituals.... and my beliefs still fall completely in line with gurbani because as Tejwant Ji said... it's open to interpretation. 

btw Athiest is not a derogatory word... and Harry Ji you called yourself Athiest on numerous previous posts! Athiest simply means someone who does not believe in the nonphysical... or God.  i.e. the idea of a soul, or life after life, or a persona creator... they believe simply in science with no intelligent design.  (lets pls not pick apart the meaning of intelligent again...)  

As a side note I have no idea who the Sikh missionary are... I was told they are spreading the 'athiestic sikh' theory while condemning the spiritual... that's all I know.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2013)

Akashaji

allow me to respond to you by posting something devoid of humour, sarcasm, smiley faces, in fact, allow me to be serious for just a moment.

ahem, ok, here goes, 

uhm, 

err

uhmm ok I apologise, again, if I offended you, and for laughing at you, and for the record, I believe it is you that is the true Sikh and me that is the heretic, I would not have it any other way, that my way is the right way fills me with horror,I am a comedian, not an expert on Sikhism, I thought that was clear! I am just a guy that does not want anything from anyone, even Creator, I have said this before, and I will say it again, we are both in this for different reasons, so it is not strange that we have different outlooks. 

BTW my wife thinks you look magnificent in your photographs, and I promise not to mock spiritualism in my writings to you. 

Can we let it go now, we are both Sikhs after all,


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## Luckysingh (Aug 1, 2013)

Tejwant ji mentioned the below in a post


> In my opinion and I may be wrong, the reason he did not do that is for us to discover Gurbani by ourselves with time. As Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a living Guru, its beauty is that its meaning changes with time. It has happened to me several times, hence I often use the word learning, unlearning and relearning.
> Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/41257-sikhi-after-life-6.html


 
I totally agree and personally, I like to call the above as different stages of spiritual development.
I find that some gurbani may be telling me one thing at one time or stage and then something much different at a later stage.
I think of it as my progress on the different levels of spirituality where I develop and acquire higher levels.

In the same way, I agree that my spirituality or spirit is the God creator/invincible part of me and not my ego. 
I certainly don't believe that when death comes, the lights go out or the plug is pulled and that's it- complete darkness.. void.... nothing !

I am more than certain that the true me, the conscious/atma/soul or whatever you want to call it continues to live on just like the God that never dies.
I agree with Akashaji when she mentions it being like a dream and then waking up or realizing what you really were and are.
The problem is that our Ego makes us think that we ARE the body we are in, we shall die and then it shall ALL be over.
This is the Ego that tells us that when God plugs the plug, that's it- The END!

I will try and explain using the terms 'timeless' and 'time bound'-
When we Die, then the Ego that is also ATTACHED to this 'time bound' body also dies.
Therefore, the Timeless God jyot within or atma/soul/conscuosness/spirit..continues to live on since it is 'timeless' unlike the 'time bound' body.

It's like the timeless part of us gets awakened and then we know exactly what and who we are. This timeless part within doesn't surface or overpower our mind because of the strong duality created with the time bound Ego.
I feel that Gurbani is telling me at this personal stage to try and awaken the 'timeless' entity within me, since that is the True Me. When this is awakened, then I will realize that the True me is also you and everyone else and HIM !


Anyway, since it has recently been revealed to Adminji that I secretly belong to the Church of Elvis, then of course I have to believe in some form of afterlife- Because the King continues to live... the show must go on....rock and roll will never die!.....


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

Luckysingh Ji, you summed up exactly my beliefs! I could not have said it better... though I did try earlier.


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## dalsingh1zero1 (Aug 1, 2013)

Not believing in some form of reincarnation, transmigration of the soul and the ultimate aim of tearing down that false wall of illusion between us and our creator (the merging) is hardly mainline Sikhi!


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

Do Akasha and Lucky ji believe that anything recognisable as you individually will live on after death?  Will you still retain your separate selves?

The characters which live in my dreams are gone when I wake up because they were never really there to begin with. To say they continue on living in me is what I'm struggling to understand... what happens in my imagination is not real.

I will die, it is hukam, and I accept that.  Energy doesn't disappear, it just changes.  The electricity in my lamp is not unique to the electricity powering Akasha Ji's laptop, even though the lamp and the laptop are different things.  When I turn off the lamp there is no shadow of my lamp which permeates the electricity network.  I guess that's where my head's at at the momet.

I haven't really seen anything in Gurbani to suggest there is some personal part of us that continues after death, either.  But I'm no scholar.

Also, I think it's important not to over-think this sort of thing, when we don't actually know what will happen.  We can only rely on Gurbani and our good actions here and now.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2013)

dalsingh1zero1 said:


> Not believing in some form of reincarnation, transmigration of the soul and the ultimate aim of tearing down that false wall of illusion between us and our creator (the merging) is hardly mainline Sikhi!



dalsingh1zero1ji,

Guru Fateh.

Would you be kind enough to elaborate that and also what is mainline Sikhi and what is not? And how does one differentiate between the two?

For the above, you may use full shabads from the SGGS, our only Guru, with your own understanding. It is important to know what the message means to your personally.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## dalsingh1zero1 (Aug 1, 2013)

I'd like to use pauri's of Japji Sahib. Is that permissible?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Do Akasha and Lucky ji believe that anything recognisable as you individually will live on after death?  Will you still retain your separate selves?
> 
> The characters which live in my dreams are gone when I wake up because they were never really there to begin with. To say they continue on living in me is what I'm struggling to understand... what happens in my imagination is not real.



Ishna Ji,

How is a dream not real? Because you can't touch it?  It DID exist... in your thoughts... that creation DID exist.  It was not physical... but it was real.  

As for the characters in the dream, they were never individuals to begin with!!! That's the point I am trying to get across...

There is no death because when you 'wake up' you will realize that you and me and everyone else were really the same ONE.  We are all dream characters being played by the same ONE creator.  So it's inconsequential what we are as individuals...  Your consciousness however will NOT cease to exist.  You will remember being you, and me, and everyone else.  

Remember Gurbani stresses that there is ONLY ONE.  

It's the hardest concept to grasp.... and is why ego is so hard to let go of... people want to try to hold on to individuality when separateness is only an illusion.  Even in your post above, you specifically mention individuality and if something of the individual exists beyond death... to me it's inconsequential - there is only ONE of us here.  There only ever was one of us here. 

Just like the characters I dream never died when I woke, because they were me all along... all of them.  They never actually had individuality to begin with - so there was nobody to actually die.... the illusion was being immersed in the dream.  The characters within the dream were characters I was playing... When I wake up I don't mourn because I woke up from the dream.  There was nothing to mourn because they never existed as separate entities to begin with.  And they did not die... they still exist within me, as a part of me... 

So the question of living on past physical death is inconsequential to me... the act of physical death is only the physical body.  Things won't go black... it's not the end.  It's more like an actor removing a costume...

again... this is just how I see things...


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 1, 2013)

dalsingh1zero1 ji,

Guru Fateh.



dalsingh1zero1 said:


> I'd like to use pauri's of Japji Sahib. Is that permissible?



I have no idea what you have in mind. For me Jap is like the necklace of Sikhi where each pauri is a bead strung together to create the necklace.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

I think this might be my last post on this subject  for now because I think we're both trying to explain the taste of an apple to each other and insisting the other person isn't eating an apple because we describe the taste slightly different to each other.



> There is no death because when you 'wake up' you will realize that you and me and everyone else were really the same ONE.


 
But there is no 'I' to wake up.  There is only Akaal Purakh.  My dream characters don't wake up.  *I* am a dream character.  *You* area dream character.  

There is only ONE as you would say and it's not you or me but IT.  It is the power grid, you and I are tiny little lamps.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 1, 2013)

Ishna said:


> I think this might be my last post on this subject  for now because I think we're both trying to explain the taste of an apple to each other and insisting the other person isn't eating an apple because we describe the taste slightly different to each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm I don't know if I can explain any other way...   When you dream you are conscious in the role of that character that you are in the dream.  

Or as an actor, you play the part of a character consciously.  But lets say the actor has forgotten that he's actually in a play.  When he takes the costume off, he doesn't forget being the character...the character didn't die because the character really didn't exist as a separate entity.  And the idea of the character being an individual is inconsequential. The consciousness inhabiting the character WAS the ONE all along... IS the creator...

You are still thinking in terms of separateness.  You are thinking your consciousness is a separate little entity from everything else.  You are thinking the consciousness of the creator is just some background power that somehow animates us.  The point is, we are not separate... we never were...  I remember quoting Gurbani where it says one who recognizes that "HE IS ME" is satisfied... this whole part talks about giving up the illusion of separateness and ego... (page 60) To me it says by being self willed... and thinking in individual terms we can not understand and can never be satisfied because we are concerned about the individual.  But when you realize there was no individual to begin with... when you surrender ego and individuality and separateness, then you realize that HE IS ME... it says when you realize your OWN SELF... then what else is there? That is the truth...  (again all my understanding of it) 



> ਮਨ ਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਛੂਟਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਿਆਰ ॥ मन रे किउ छूटहि बिनु पिआर ॥ Man re ki▫o cẖẖūtėh bin pi▫ār. O mind, how can you be saved without love?
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਬਖਸੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ गुरमुखि अंतरि रवि रहिआ बखसे भगति भंडार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Gurmukẖ anṯar rav rahi▫ā bakẖse bẖagaṯ bẖandār. ||1|| rahā▫o. God permeates the inner beings of the Gurmukhs. They are blessed with the treasure of devotion. ||1||Pause||
> ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਨੀਰ ॥ रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी मछुली नीर ॥ Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī macẖẖulī nīr. O mind, love the Lord, as the fish loves the water.
> ਜਿਉ ਅਧਿਕਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਣੋ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਰੀਰ ॥ जिउ अधिकउ तिउ सुखु घणो मनि तनि सांति सरीर ॥ Ji▫o aḏẖika▫o ṯi▫o sukẖ gẖaṇo man ṯan sāŉṯ sarīr. The more the water, the more the happiness, and the greater the peace of mind and body.
> ...


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## Ishna (Aug 1, 2013)

Akasha ji, you think I'm stuck in duality and I think you are too, but I think it's just because we don't understand each other. I won't start an analysis of what you think because I don't actually know what you think because I'm not in your head (and likewise). 

One is talking about cooking in terms of ingredients and flavour, the other in terms of chemical reactions and science. They're talking about the same thing (cooking the freakin' meal) but using different terms and one can't understand the terms of the other.

I've done my dash now, good luck to the rest of you eacesignkaur:


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## Luckysingh (Aug 2, 2013)

Ishna said:


> But there is no 'I' to wake up. There is only Akaal Purakh


It is ONLY you that experiences the dream and wakes from it.


> My dream characters don't wake up. *I* am a dream character. *You* are a dream character.


 You may be the dream character, but only YOU are having that dream with others playing their roles. The others are not dreaming the same dream and scenario. You are in control as it stops when you wake up. 

I know this is a little tricky, but you will either get it or you won't !


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## Ishna (Aug 2, 2013)

There are no others, only Tu.

You either get it, or you don't.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 2, 2013)

Ishna said:


> > There is no death because when you 'wake up' you will realize that you and me and everyone else were really the same ONE.
> 
> 
> But there is no 'I' to wake up.




respected sister ji ,  


"I" is ALWAYS  THERE  until "I"  WAKES UP ,  wake up of  I (Our soul) is very much required .in shabad below I is soul bride .

ਸੂਹੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥
Soohee, Fifth Mehl

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr>   <td>  ਏਕਾ  ਸੇਜ  ਵਿਛੀ  ਧਨ  ਕੰਤਾ  ॥ 
एका सेज विछी धन कंता ॥ 
Ėkā sej vicẖẖī ḏẖan kanṯā. 
One bed is spread out for the bride and her Husband Lord. 
   </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#BABAC7"><td>  ਧਨ  ਸੂਤੀ  ਪਿਰੁ  ਸਦ  ਜਾਗੰਤਾ  ॥ 
धन सूती पिरु सद जागंता ॥ 
Ḏẖan sūṯī pir saḏ jāganṯā. 
The bride is asleep, while her Husband Lord is always awake. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪੀਓ  ਮਦਰੋ  ਧਨ  ਮਤਵੰਤਾ  ॥ 
पीओ मदरो धन मतवंता ॥ 
Pī▫o maḏro ḏẖan maṯvanṯā. 
The bride is intoxicated, as if she has drunk wine. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਧਨ  ਜਾਗੈ  ਜੇ  ਪਿਰੁ  ਬੋਲੰਤਾ  ॥੨॥ 
धन जागै जे पिरु बोलंता ॥२॥ 
Ḏẖan jāgai je pir bolanṯā. ||2|| 
The soul-bride only awakens when her Husband Lord calls to her. ||2|| 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Ishna (Aug 2, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> respected sister ji ,
> 
> 
> "I" is ALWAYS THERE until "I" WAKES UP , wake up of I (Our soul) is very much required .in shabad below I is soul bride .
> ...


 
Dear Veer ji

My understanding of this shabad (full shabad from ang 737 is here for reference: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=737&L=19&id=31662 ) is that the awakening is of our awareness, here and now. In egotism we are asleep, unaware of Truth, the soul bride is drunk on the wine of Maya. Gurprasad we are awakened and can only see Truth all around, as per the end of the shabad:

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਪਿਰੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah pir hai bẖā▫ī.
Wherever I look, I see my Husband Lord there, O Siblings of Destiny.
ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਕਪਾਟੁ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਠਹਰਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੫॥
Kẖolĥi▫o kapāt ṯā man ṯẖahrā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||5||
When the door is opened, then the mind is restrained. ||1||Second Pause||5||

Personally I don't see this shabad as speaking of the afterlife but about this current life.


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 2, 2013)

> My understanding of this shabad is that the awakening is of our awareness, here and now.


 GREAT !!Sister ji , m also saying  same (Jeevan mukt ) .



> In egotism we are asleep, unaware of Truth, the soul bride is drunk on  the wine of Maya. Gurprasad we are awakened and can only see Truth all  around, as per the end of the shabad:


nothing to  disagree !!




> ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਪਿਰੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ॥
> Jah ḏekẖā ṯah pir hai bẖā▫ī.
> Wherever I look, I see my Husband Lord there, O Siblings of Destiny.
> ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਕਪਾਟੁ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਠਹਰਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੫॥
> ...


ya,its  situation  after  I/Soul  wakes up (I and YOU became ONE ,UNION)and its same as Akasha ji quoted 


> ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥ सोहं आपु पछाणीऐ सबदि भेदि पतीआइ ॥ Sohaŉ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e. One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥ गुरमुखि आपु पछाणीऐ अवर कि करे कराइ ॥९॥ Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9|| When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his *own self*, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||


upto here there is no disagreement between us .



> Personally I don't see this shabad as speaking of the afterlife but about this current life.


ok , lets assume as it is highly probable that  I/Soul  do not wake up from maya / illusion  , I remained I(Separated from YOU) .if one dies  in such situation(Separated) then  what will happen to I ? THE END ?


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## Ishna (Aug 2, 2013)

Dear Veerji

This shabad from ang 46 say that even when we're separate, we're atually not.  http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=46&L=18&id=1897 

<TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਚ ਸਿਉ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Parīṯ lagī ṯis sacẖ si▫o marai na āvai jā▫e.
I have fallen in love with the True Lord. He does not die, He does not come and go.
ਨਾ ਵੇਛੋੜਿਆ ਵਿਛੁੜੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
Nā vecẖẖoṛi▫ā vicẖẖuṛai sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e.
In separation, He is not separated from us; He is pervading and permeating amongst all.
ਦੀਨ ਦਰਦ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨਾ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਸਤ ਭਾਇ ॥
Ḏīn ḏaraḏ ḏukẖ bẖanjnā sevak kai saṯ bẖā▫e.
He is the Destroyer of the pain and suffering of the meek. He bears True Love for His servants.
ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ਮਾਇ ॥੧॥
Acẖraj rūp niranjano gur melā▫i▫ā mā▫e. ||1||
Wondrous is the Form of the Immaculate One. Through the Guru, I have met Him, O my mother! ||1||
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 2, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Dear Veerji
> 
> This shabad from ang 46 say that even when we're separate, we're atually not. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=46&L=18&id=1897
> 
> ...


 

SSA,

EXACTLY!!!!!!  Separation IS the illusion!!! There IS ONLY ONE!!! 

Ishna Ji, Akasha Ji etc. are inconsequential... 

The 'I AM' - the experiencer - that exists within all of us... the part of you (and me and everyone) that 'experiences'... IS THE ONE.  

Recognize that 'HE IS ME' 
Realize your 'OWN SELF' 
Remember 'There is only ONE' and he is 'NOT separated from us' even though we think we are separate we are not.  
Awaken to WHO you really are!

Shed ego... and give up separateness.... surrender the idea of individuality all together... the only way to come out and say it directly... YOU ARE the ONE (and so am I, and so is Lucky Ji, and Harmanpreet Ji, etc.)

The ONE does not die.  The 'experiencer' does not die.  Though the physical body of Ishna Ji will one day be shed, the DOER and experiencer inside that physical body will one day awaken and remember that Ishna Ji was only a character to be played in a transient dream, as were all the other characters.  Death is therefore inconsequential - it doesn't matter - because Ishna Ji as a separate entity is only an illusion... just as my dream characters were never really separate entities to begin with, there is nothing to die... 

I know that only Lucky Ji so far actually gets what I am trying to explain.  It's so simple, yet so hard for people to wrap their heads around, because even though we may know the concept of ONEness we always have to think of things in the terms of being separate.  That's the challenge of this lifetime... the hardest thing to give up is your identity... you identify automatically as a separate being... you MUST lay down this identity to see the truth... you must surrender your ego and self-willed thinking... you HAVE to think in the concept that we are all ONE - there was never WE to begin with...'we' are just the characters the creator is playing.  The 'experiencer' who is looking through your eyes, hearing through your ears, thinking, feeling, doing... the experiencer IS and was all along the ONE.  You just forgot who you are. 

This philosophy is deep and difficult to understand... but interpreting Gurbani in this way just makes so much sense... more sense than to try to cryptically apply it to just nature and science.  I read gurbani and it jumps out at me... lay down the ME and YOU and SHE and HE... and remember only my true identity.

again... people who view things in terms of only science and nature will interpret these things differently... but for me, trying to do it that way is very abstract and you end up trying to 'make things fit'.  

In fact, I held these beliefs before I came to Sikhi anyway... It was when I read Gurbani and realized it totally was saying what I already believed, I was in Awe. 

Of course people are at different stages of spiritual development and people will interpret things differently... so lets not name call or argue anymore.  

This site may expain it better than I tried to.... Ishna Ji, you might grasp what Lucky Ji and I are trying to say by reading this article:
http://divinecosmos.com/start-here/larrys-corner/larry-articles/535-there-is-only-one-of-us-here

Fateh,

Akasha


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## Ishna (Aug 2, 2013)

There is nothing left for me to say, sorry Akasha ji.


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## Kamala (Aug 2, 2013)

To be honest, I know if you are a really virtuous Sikh, you may recieve a spot in sach khand and "merge" with Sri Vaheguru. Or if you are not as virtuous you will keep getting reincarnated till you become so. Everyone has to go to Narakh for their paaps for a while, and after that you get to go to Swarg (not sach khand) for as much virtues you've done.

I have been told that when you go to Narakh, the yam dhuuts would constantly give you pain for your virtues, but they can never snatch the virtue of praying to Sri Vaheguru.

This is one reason why it is essential to pray to Sri Vaheguru for forgiveness. Saying sorry after you have done wrong is meaningless, pray to Sri Vaheguru and watch your prayers go to sach khand.


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## arshdeep88 (Aug 2, 2013)

kamala ji 
Sat sri akal ji 
i dont know if heaven or hell is described as a place where one needs to be tried or rewardd for their deeds respectively  after death in Guru Granth Sahib G,
if there is such can you please post the shabad for the reference.


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## Kamala (Aug 2, 2013)

Sat Sri Akal
Well, I don't think they are called Narakh or Swarg specifically, they are named after different kinds of hells, like rasthal (different patalas) for example.

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>  ਤੀਰਥ  ਬਰਤ  ਨੇਮ  ਕੀਏ  ਤੇ  ਸਭੈ  ਰਸਾਤਲਿ  ਜਾਂਹਿ  ॥੨੩੩॥
तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥ 
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai *rasāṯal *jāŉhi. ||233|| 
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## arshdeep88 (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamala ji
you forgot to add ang number with shabad ,i wanted to read the entire shabad 
anyways
Are you sure this hell being specified in the shabad you posted is a PLACE where one is rewarded for the misdeeds?


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamala said:


> To be honest, I know if you are a really virtuous Sikh, you may recieve a spot in sach khand and "merge" with Sri Vaheguru. Or if you are not as virtuous you will keep getting reincarnated till you become so. Everyone has to go to Narakh for their paaps for a while, and after that you get to go to Swarg (not sach khand) for as much virtues you've done.
> 
> I have been told that when you go to Narakh, the yam dhuuts would constantly give you pain for your virtues, but they can never snatch the virtue of praying to Sri Vaheguru.
> 
> This is one reason why it is essential to pray to Sri Vaheguru for forgiveness. Saying sorry after you have done wrong is meaningless, pray to Sri Vaheguru and watch your prayers go to sach khand.



Kamala ji

For the second day in a row I am hearing about Sikhs who are "in the know."
Yesterday they were the devout who have made an exodus from this atheist forum. Today they are virtuous and must wait to die before the find sachkhand.


What is your reference for the statement 



> if you are a really virtuous Sikh, you may recieve a spot in sach khand and "merge" with Sri Vaheguru.



What is a "virtuous" Sikh? 

Where is sachkhand? It is traditional to say something like, My ami has now gone to sachkhand. That is a euphemism for 'she died.' It doesn't sound as harsh if we think ami has passed to her reward. If nothing in Gurbani supports this, then it is folklore. Where is this spot in sachkhand? It is the type of thing that Guru Nanak warns against.  

Sachkhand is where you are in this life when you have met the sat and achieve 'intuitive ease." You are no longer the slave of your ego, but you are the slave of the Guru.

In my opinion we need to relieve ourselves of the burden of these labels. Instead get on with the work of being the label. To be freed from the imagery of language that traps our spirit, that is liberation here and now.


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## Kamala (Aug 2, 2013)

I am pretty sure they receive consequences in hell, for their misdeeds.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1377&english=t&id=58737#l58737


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## Kamala (Aug 2, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> Kamala ji
> 
> For the second day in a row I am hearing about Sikhs who are "in the know."
> Yesterday they were the devout who have made an exodus from this atheist forum. Today they are virtuous and must wait to die before the find sachkhand.
> ...


Sachkhand isn't in this life. If you were in Sachkhand, you would have been merged with Sri Vaheguru, do you think you are?


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamala said:


> Sat Sri Akal
> Well, I don't think they are called Narakh or Swarg specifically, they are named after different kinds of hells, like rasthal (different patalas) for example.
> 
> <table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>  ਤੀਰਥ  ਬਰਤ  ਨੇਮ  ਕੀਏ  ਤੇ  ਸਭੈ  ਰਸਾਤਲਿ  ਜਾਂਹਿ  ॥੨੩੩॥
> ...



Please let us take a look at the saloka of Kabir ji when it is seen along with some of its partner verses. This is from Ang 1377. I think we will attain a better understanding of what is meant by "hell" if we see it in context.

I have not done a careful check of the translation, so some of the verses may not be exact. However we are looking at Kabeer ji's vision that contrasts the hell of arrogance and ego with the constant bliss of the company of his beloved Friend.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bẖāŉg mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāŉhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāŉhi. ||233||
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

ਨੀਚੇ ਲੋਇਨ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਉ ਲੇ ਸਾਜਨ ਘਟ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Nīcẖe lo▫in kar raha▫o le sājan gẖat māhi.
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

ਸਭ ਰਸ ਖੇਲਉ ਪੀਅ ਸਉ ਕਿਸੀ ਲਖਾਵਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨੩੪॥
Sabẖ ras kẖela▫o pī▫a sa▫o kisī lakẖāva▫o nāhi. ||234||
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||

ਆਠ ਜਾਮ ਚਉਸਠਿ ਘਰੀ ਤੁਅ ਨਿਰਖਤ ਰਹੈ ਜੀਉ ॥
Āṯẖ jām cẖa▫usaṯẖ gẖarī ṯu▫a nirkẖaṯ rahai jī▫o.
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

ਨੀਚੇ ਲੋਇਨ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਉ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਦੇਖਉ ਪੀਉ ॥੨੩੫॥
Nīcẖe lo▫in ki▫o kara▫o sabẖ gẖat ḏekẖ▫a▫u pī▫o. ||235||
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||

ਸੁਨੁ ਸਖੀ ਪੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਬਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਬਸੈ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥
Sun sakẖī pī▫a mėh jī▫o basai jī▫a mėh basai kė pī▫o.
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

ਜੀਉ ਪੀਉ ਬੂਝਉ ਨਹੀ ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥੨੩੬॥
Jī▫o pī▫o būjẖa▫o nahī gẖat mėh jī▫o kė pī▫o. ||236||
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

ਕਬੀਰ ਬਾਮਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bāman gurū hai jagaṯ kā bẖagṯan kā gur nāhi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.


ਅਰਝਿ ਉਰਝਿ ਕੈ ਪਚਿ ਮੂਆ ਚਾਰਉ ਬੇਦਹੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੨੩੭॥
Arajẖ urajẖ kai pacẖ mū▫ā cẖāra▫o beḏahu māhi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||


This is not about "hell" apart from a hellish existence on earth. The first two verses tell us that someone who makes a show of status through rich diet and drink, and who makes an egotistical show of their virtue and devotion though pilgrimages and the like, they do not go to hell, but rather they come into their inheritance. It is hell,  their spiritual inheritance; they do not have to be dead to inherit the wages of their pride.

In contrast to coming into an inheritance from arrogance and ego, Kabeer ji says in the next two verses, "I already enjoy the pleasure of the company of my beloved. And I do not brag about it, I keep it to myself, I keep my counsel because I am not one to make a show of my devotion.

Then Kabeer ji says, I won't lower my eyes to make it look as if I am so pious and humble. I won't make a show of that. I cast my eyes instead into the face of my beloved whom I find everywhere in every heart.

Kabeer ji then says let us all rejoice when we find the beloved within. There is no difference, we are like lovers who live constantly in each other's gaze. Our beloved is within, and we are within the beloved. In other words acts of piety like pilgrimages are unnecessary. And no one has to be notified; the one who matters most already knows.. 

Finally Kabeer ji says, and there are more saloks, I am stopping here. Kabeer ji says, the Brahmin (reference to those who make outward shows of piety through pilgrimages, rituals and fasts) may be recognized as gurus to the world (which in the times of Kabeer ji, that is how they served, teachers and keepers of the vedas). However they have nothing of value to teach the true devotee (the one who has that friend who never forsakes us). What happens to that Brahmin? He also comes into his inheritance. He rots in a hell of his own making: his vedas are so complex and his teachings are so complicated! How can he teach anyone?

I will go back and polish up the translations later.


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## arshdeep88 (Aug 2, 2013)

kamala ji i have tried reading the entire page which you mentioned and  i grasped few points from there from my understanding 
You can read him mentioning again and again that he(Kabeer Ji) is in tune with the GOD
remembering HIM day and night he has united with the lord ,he says again and again that there 
first he talks how he should lower his gaze to search for the almighty within him and then he says no he should not  lower his gaze but instead look for the beloved lord in each and every heart,though different topic altogether but i see kabir ji in mergence with the LORD
so another point why i dont think heaven ,hell or sachkhand is a physical place being reffered here 
and about HELL no way i find it as a place to be tried for misdeeds from the shabad ,i see it rather a state of mind at which the TRUE LORD is forgotten.

If hell is really a place where one is tried for misdeeds and wrong doings then why few of the people go through tough times even when day and night they chant waheguru ,waheguru ?


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamala said:


> Sachkhand isn't in this life. If you were in Sachkhand, you would have been merged with Sri Vaheguru, do you think you are?



No! Do you not think that our Gurus and the bhagats had not found sachkhand in their lifetimes? Sachkhand is not a place on earth or anywhere else. It is a state that is true: it is a state of mind.

This is one of the many ways that Guru Nanak turned the world of brahminism on its head and rescued souls from the 84 lakh joon. You do not have to wait to die.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 2, 2013)

Further to my previous posts:



> SGGS Page 736 Starting at Line 11:
> 
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> ...



This to me says:

The actor is the ONE - the creator
The creator is playing ALL of the characters (us) in this play (life) 
But when the creator removes the costumes, we see that they were all really the same actor and not separate entities. 
The characters in the play did not die... they were only transient personas that the actor played... 
The 'experiencer' behind the characters eyes was the creator all along... that makes the question of death inconsequential.  It makes the question of an afterlife inconsequential... because life and death are both illusions of perception.  The ONE is everything, was always everything and always be everything.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamala said:


> Sachkhand isn't in this life. If you were in Sachkhand, you would have been merged with Sri Vaheguru, do you think you are?


 
LOL!:grinningsingh:
Your innocent humour Kamalaji always amuses me !
I know you are asking it with a serious intention and are not trying to come across as cheeky !eacesign:I 

Sachkhand can be a destination in the after life !.. why not ??
Some can probably experience the merge here too... again,why not ??
Is it a state of mind ??......Maybe, but not mine for sure as mine seems to overflow with the 5 thieves. That's why me and Akasha think that the mind is NOT me. There is another entity such as the soul/atma/consciousness that is 'timeless' that is the real me !!

I'm afraid no else seems to get this crazy assertion that we are making, maybe you need to experience an OBE to be convinced ??
:grinningsingh: I don't know, but it's not my aim to be convincing others anyway !
Like I say, you either get it or you don't.
We are here to discuss sikhi and gurbani and I think Guru Nanak ji taught us not be worried about afterlife and death but to focus on this very special god given time BETWEEN your birth and death.
If we focus on this as per gurbani then 'sachkhand' will happen no matter where it is !


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 2, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> That's why me and Akasha think that the mind is NOT me. There is another entity such as the soul/atma/consciousness that is 'timeless' that is the real me !!
> 
> I'm afraid no else seems to get this crazy assertion that we are making, maybe you need to experience an OBE to be convinced ??
> :grinningsingh: I don't know, but it's not my aim to be convincing others anyway !
> Like I say, you either get it or you don't.



Apprently Jim Carrey gets it eacesignkaur:

(this is actually a very good video... and very good description of what we are trying to say)

Jim Carrey Spiritual Awakening "We are all one" - YouTube


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2013)

Admin warning

I don't know if I am reacting to a wind-up or something else. However, it appears that everyone who needs to say something along the l ines of  -- "It's the ONE. Get it? Some people get it. Some people don't get it. You have to ......to get it" or any clone of aforesaid -- has by now had a chance to say  'it.' 

Any further repetition of this message will be considered spam and will be deleted without warning. Assuming that I am still awake to catch 'it.'


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## Luckysingh (Aug 2, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> Admin warning
> 
> I don't know if I am reacting to a wind-up or something else. However, it appears that everyone who needs to say something along the l ines of -- "It's the ONE. Get it? Some people get it. Some people don't get it. You have to ......to get it" or any clone of aforesaid -- has by now had a chance to say 'it.'
> 
> Any further repetition of this message will be considered spam and will be deleted without warning. Assuming that I am still awake to catch 'it.'


 
I'm getting a little confused here or I am not understanding the conversation !
Or maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea ?


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2013)

Enough has been said about getting 'it."  :noticekudi: Move on


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 2, 2013)

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add something to what you have already said:



> ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
> Kabīr bẖāŉg mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāŉhi.
> Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
> 
> ...



In Kabeer's time, it was a common cultural understanding that men consumed marijuana, fish, alcohol and chewed paan-betal leaf which is laced with limestone paste and tobacco as aphrodisiacs before going to the dancers or prostitutes known as "Kothei walees" which literally means, women who live upstairs. All these actions took place on the upper levels of these kinds of houses so no one could see them  from the street.

This is also the reason many "ignorant Sikh scholars" use this salok to claim that eating fish/meat is forbidden in Sikhi.

Kabeer is showing the hypocricy of  these people by saying that they who consume aphrodisiacs to commit adultery, no matter how many religious rituals they follow to cleanse themselves with, their  actions have already created a living hell for them.

Tejwant Singh


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## Luckysingh (Aug 3, 2013)

> Do you not think that our Gurus and the bhagats had not found sachkhand in their lifetimes? Sachkhand is not a place on earth or anywhere else. It is a state that is true: it is a state of *mind.*
> Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/41257-sikhi-after-life-10.html


 
Maybe this is where i'm going wrong !!
I thought that it would be 'soul' and not 'mind'
Or do we not believe that a soul or some other entity exists that is not our mind ?(the mind i'm referring to is that associated with our physical brain-the thought processer)


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## Harry Haller (Aug 3, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> Maybe this is where i'm going wrong !!
> I thought that it would be 'soul' and not 'mind'
> Or do we not believe that a soul or some other entity exists that is not our mind ?(the mind i'm referring to is that associated with our physical brain-the thought processer)



What is a soul? it is worthy of a thread in itself, it could be all the good in you, all the potential good in you? the highest level that you can be?

The word 'soul' has so many connotations, that to use it in an explanation only leaves that explanation open and unconclusive.

Does your soul hurt? Can you feel the pain in your soul? Maybe your soul is as real as my dear wolf, maybe your soul is nothing of the sort, a flowery description of something very simple.

The mind as associated with our physical brain is something else, it is real, it hurts, it feels pain, joy, so who are you? whatever is the sum total of your mind? or this mythical soul? If my soul goes onto Sachkhand after death, what happens to my mind? What happens to all my likes and dislikes? What use is it to me where my soul ends up?

I always felt that Sikhism was a way to grow your mind to the highest point you can, and then to utilise that growth to assist Creation, and along the way, to do the same, I find people hungry for salvation, for mukti, for a sight of Sachkhand a bit like those folks that stop you in the street to try and get you to sign a donation up. Some of them earn more than me, I asked one the other day, £25,000 is what he gets paid to solicit donations from the general public, so his interest is not the starving in Africa, he is just doing his job, and those that yearn for an afterlife, for a sight of God, to nestle in his lap and play with his beard, well, thats the goal, not the journey, the supreme connection that can be had right here and right now, is being exchanged for promises of untold joy that can never be, its chasing personal riches over connection.

As for getting 'it', well I am quite happy not to get it, if getting it is becoming a smug, self satisfied person obsessed with the thought of being one of the chosen few, well, frankly, you can stick 'it'.

Regarding the afterlife, after some thought, no one can truly know what happens after death, sure, we can all speculate, but no one can make any definitive statement, however, I live on the basis that I will be wormfood, but the truth is, after death, I could not care less, that is where the faith kicks in, I expect wormfood, because I refuse to allow my thinking to be compromised by the thought that this is all some big test, with Gods lap being the chief prize, we get back to the £25,000 charity collectors again, 

I hope those concerned enjoy 'it' when they find 'it'


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## dalsingh1zero1 (Aug 3, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> dalsingh1zero1 ji,
> 
> I have no idea what you have in mind. For me Jap is like the necklace of Sikhi where each pauri is a bead strung together to create the necklace.



I'd agree. The necklace however is made up of a number of unique beads, each sharing different ideas which make up the whole.


I originally sought to mine the treasury of Jap for clues towards the Sikh idea of an after life but then I realised that it will essentially boil down to arguments over interpretation. 

Seeing as some others are articulating views quite similar to my own better than I could, I'll bow out.

I need to do more studying and reflecting on the topic.


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> Maybe this is where i'm going wrong !!
> I thought that it would be 'soul' and not 'mind'
> Or do we not believe that a soul or some other entity exists that is not our mind ?(the mind i'm referring to is that associated with our physical brain-the thought processer)




Does Guru Nanak have any soul taking a journey to sachkhand after physical death?  Or are we making that up?  

I used the term "state" of mind because a state can be either an actual location or a psychological/spiritual place. Leaving us with the question - are the khands spiritual states where the mind can be? We can check 1429 pannas of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to see where "munn" will be after death of the self. 

If that is too much trouble, then we can resort to folklore that tells us where the soul will be after physical death.

 To know whether Guru Nanak was referring to khands in a spiritual sense, have we looked carefully at how Guru Nanak then uses the idea of "khands" in the context of all shabads not single tuks? 

Some because of their advanced spiritual attainment are naturally exempt from study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And dalsingh1zero1 has to be capturing something important, there will be differences in interpretation. 

Guru Nanak himself said he did not know what happens after death. For me that is a huge clue. A huge clue as to whether it is the soul or the mind that goes to "sachkhand."


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 3, 2013)

harry haller said:


> What is a soul? it is worthy of a thread in itself, it could be all the good in you, all the potential good in you? the highest level that you can be?
> 
> Does your soul hurt? Can you feel the pain in your soul? Maybe your soul is as real as my dear wolf, maybe your soul is nothing of the sort, a flowery description of something very simple.



The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light... the self-conscious self-aware part of you that is the REAL you, the part that always was, is, and always will be.  It is beyond time and the physical. Without the soul the physical body would be an empty shell with no 'experiencer' - not unlike a computer that has been programmed to do things and take in data - In Jim Carrey's video (I know not Sikhi directly related but it's a good illustration) he took a step back from his thoughts and asked "Who is the one that knows I am thinking?"

So of course the soul can not feel pain as in the physical sense... that is a purely physical attribute.  But feel pain as in the pain of being separated from Waheguru Ji... of course.  But then, that is not physical pain... 

For me the mind and the soul are two different things... The mind is the tool the soul uses to interact with this world using the physical body as a vehicle.  The mind allows the soul to interpret the physical surroundings, feel physical pain etc.  But it is the soul that is the 'doer'. 

For me, the physical body and mind are transient... the soul is the real me that always exists.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 3, 2013)

Akasha said:


> The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light... the self-conscious self-aware part of you that is the REAL you, the part that always was, is, and always will be.  It is beyond time and the physical. Without the soul the physical body would be an empty shell with no 'experiencer' - not unlike a computer that has been programmed to do things and take in data - In Jim Carrey's video (I know not Sikhi directly related but it's a good illustration) he took a step back from his thoughts and asked "Who is the one that knows I am thinking?"
> 
> So of course the soul can not feel pain as in the physical sense... that is a purely physical attribute.  But feel pain as in the pain of being separated from Waheguru Ji... of course.  But then, that is not physical pain...
> 
> ...



if you could clear up something I would be hugely grateful.

you write



> The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light... the  self-conscious self-aware part of you that is the REAL you, the part  that always was, is, and always will be.  It is beyond time and the  physical



Ok, I can run with this, what you call Soul, I call man, devoid of all desires, and perfect, it is the good angel on my shoulder, however

you then write



> So of course the soul can not feel pain as in the physical sense... that  is a purely physical attribute.  But feel pain as in the pain of being  separated from Waheguru Ji... of course.  But then, that is not physical  pain...



this confuses me, your above description of the Soul sounds pretty perfect, like it is already merged with Waheguruji, or at least it represents it in some way, as a drop represents the ocean, but at what point is it seperated from Waheguruji that it would feel this non physical pain?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 3, 2013)

harry haller said:


> if you could clear up something I would be hugely grateful.
> 
> you write
> 
> ...



It would be more that it 'forgot' that it was already merged... always was merged.... etc I think that is what is meant by separation. Actual separation is an illusion. This illusion created by the mind / physical...


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## Harry Haller (Aug 3, 2013)

no Akashaji that does not make sense.



> The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light..



this intimates the Soul to be pretty divine, you are near enough saying that the Soul is a representation of Creator itself

but 



> It would be more that it 'forgot' that it was already merged.



So this Soul that is representing Creator itself sometimes forgets its merged with Creator, so the the Soul thinks it is seperated, but the seperation itself is merely an illusion, and in such circumstances the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion.

Have I got your point correctly or have I misunderstood?


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## harmanpreet singh (Aug 3, 2013)

harry haller said:


> So this Soul that is representing Creator itself sometimes forgets its merged with Creator, so the the Soul thinks it is seperated, but the seperation itself is merely an illusion, and in such circumstances the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion.
> 
> Have I got your point correctly or have I misunderstood?



Harry ji you got it very correctly , ya " the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion".

Just like A king feel pain in dream /illusion of being beggar .

Bhagat Ravidass ji expressed bfully,


ਰਾਗੁ  ਸੋਰਠਿ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਭਗਤ  ਰਵਿਦਾਸ  ਜੀ  ਕੀ
रागु सोरठि बाणी भगत रविदास जी की
Rāg soraṯẖ baṇī bẖagaṯ Raviḏās jī kī
Raag Sorat'h, The Word Of Devotee Ravi Daas Jee:
ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਜਬ  ਹਮ  ਹੋਤੇ  ਤਬ  ਤੂ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਅਬ  ਤੂਹੀ  ਮੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ॥
जब हम होते तब तू नाही अब तूही मै नाही ॥
Jab ham hoṯe ṯab ṯū nāhī ab ṯūhī mai nāhī.
When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.
ਅਨਲ  ਅਗਮ  ਜੈਸੇ  ਲਹਰਿ  ਮਇ  ਓਦਧਿ  ਜਲ  ਕੇਵਲ  ਜਲ  ਮਾਂਹੀ  ॥੧॥
अनल अगम जैसे लहरि मइ ओदधि जल केवल जल मांही ॥१॥
Anal agam jaise lahar ma▫i oḏaḏẖ jal keval jal māŉhī. ||1||
The wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just water in water. ||1||
ਮਾਧਵੇ  ਕਿਆ  ਕਹੀਐ  ਭ੍ਰਮੁ  ਐਸਾ  ॥
माधवे किआ कहीऐ भ्रमु ऐसा ॥
Māḏẖve ki▫ā kahī▫ai bẖaram aisā.
O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion?
ਜੈਸਾ  ਮਾਨੀਐ  ਹੋਇ  ਨ  ਤੈਸਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
जैसा मानीऐ होइ न तैसा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jaisā mānī▫ai ho▫e na ṯaisā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause||
ਨਰਪਤਿ  ਏਕੁ  ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ  ਸੋਇਆ  ਸੁਪਨੇ  ਭਇਆ  ਭਿਖਾਰੀ  ॥
नरपति एकु सिंघासनि सोइआ सुपने भइआ भिखारी ॥
Narpaṯ ek singẖāsan so▫i▫ā supne bẖa▫i▫ā bẖikẖārī.
It is like the king, who falls asleep upon his throne, and dreams that he is a beggar.
ਅਛਤ  ਰਾਜ  ਬਿਛੁਰਤ  ਦੁਖੁ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਸੋ  ਗਤਿ  ਭਈ  ਹਮਾਰੀ  ॥੨॥
अछत राज बिछुरत दुखु पाइआ सो गति भई हमारी ॥२॥
Acẖẖaṯ rāj bicẖẖuraṯ ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā so gaṯ bẖa▫ī hamārī. ||2||
His kingdom is intact, but separated from it, he suffers in sorrow. Such is my own condition. ||2||
ਰਾਜ  ਭੁਇਅੰਗ  ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ  ਜੈਸੇ  ਹਹਿ  ਅਬ  ਕਛੁ  ਮਰਮੁ  ਜਨਾਇਆ  ॥
राज भुइअंग प्रसंग जैसे हहि अब कछु मरमु जनाइआ ॥
Rāj bẖu▫i▫ang parsang jaise hėh ab kacẖẖ maram janā▫i▫ā.
Like the story of the rope mistaken for a snake, the mystery has now been explained to me.
ਅਨਿਕ  ਕਟਕ  ਜੈਸੇ  ਭੂਲਿ  ਪਰੇ  ਅਬ  ਕਹਤੇ  ਕਹਨੁ  ਨ  ਆਇਆ  ॥੩॥
अनिक कटक जैसे भूलि परे अब कहते कहनु न आइआ ॥३॥
Anik katak jaise bẖūl pare ab kahṯe kahan na ā▫i▫ā. ||3||
Like the many bracelets, which I mistakenly thought were gold; now, I do not say what I said then. ||3||
ਸਰਬੇ  ਏਕੁ  ਅਨੇਕੈ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਸਭ  ਘਟ  ਭਗਵੈ  ਸੋਈ  ॥
सरबे एकु अनेकै सुआमी सभ घट भोगवै सोई ॥
Sarbe ek anekai su▫āmī sabẖ gẖat bẖogvai so▫ī.
The One Lord is pervading the many forms; He enjoys Himself in all hearts.
ਕਹਿ  ਰਵਿਦਾਸ  ਹਾਥ  ਪੈ  ਨੇਰੈ  ਸਹਜੇ  ਹੋਇ  ਸੁ  ਹੋਈ  ॥੪॥੧॥
कहि रविदास हाथ पै नेरै सहजे होइ सु होई ॥४॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās hāth pai nerai sėhje ho▫e so ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Ravi Daas, the Lord is nearer than our own hands and feet. Whatever will be, will be. ||4||1||




sri waheguru ji ki fateh


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 3, 2013)

harry haller said:


> no Akashaji that does not make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It makes perfect sense! And and Harmanpreet Ji has shown an excellent example quote! 

Yup you got it!!  Separation IS the illusion... like the drop of water analogy you used... the drop was never removed from the ocean to begin with, it just 'forgot' that it was in the ocean (because of the illusory world it created for itself as a separate being) a kind of self-induced amnesia that makes it forget that it really is a drop still in the ocean!


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 3, 2013)

Harmanpreet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please always add the panna number when you copy and paste a Shabad so others can go back and research more for their own understanding.

You write:




> ਨਰਪਤਿ ਏਕੁ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਸੋਇਆ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਭਇਆ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
> नरपति एकु सिंघासनि सोइआ सुपने भइआ भिखारी ॥
> Narpaṯ ek singẖāsan so▫i▫ā supne bẖa▫i▫ā bẖikẖārī.
> It is like the king, who falls asleep upon his throne, and dreams that he is a beggar.
> ...



Pardon my ignorance, but what does this have to do with the topic first of all and then how did you connect two lines from the Shabad with soul/illusion etc.  etc?

Please express what this Shabad means to you which the literal translations can not explain.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Aug 3, 2013)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Harry ji you got it very correctly , ya " the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion".
> 
> Just like A king feel pain in dream /illusion of being beggar .
> 
> ...



and herein are shown , in my view, thats my own view, the consequences of randomly searching for words and phrases to back up an argument. This is way too ambigious to prove your point, in fact, it only makes me question further how the soul can be seperated if it is Creator within us, if it is already perfect. 



> When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.



this intimates the man has found his inner soul and is the man lamenting seperation from Creator, from indeed his inner soul. It is not the soul that was ever seperated, it is not the soul that forgets


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2013)

Akasha said:


> It would be more that it 'forgot' that it was already merged... always was merged.... etc I think that is what is meant by separation. Actual separation is an illusion. This illusion created by the mind / physical...


In Selok Kabir Ji Page 1375 Line 10
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਕਬੀਰ  ਤੂੰ  ਤੂੰ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਤੂ  ਹੂਆ  ਮੁਝ  ਮਹਿ  ਰਹਾ  ਨ  ਹੂੰ  ॥ 
कबीर तूं तूं करता तू हूआ मुझ महि रहा न हूं ॥ 
Kabīr ṯūŉ ṯūŉ karṯā ṯū hū▫ā mujẖ mėh rahā na hūŉ. 
Kabeer, repeating, "You, You", I have become like You. Nothing of me remains in myself. 
   </td></tr><tr><td>  ਜਬ  ਆਪਾ  ਪਰ  ਕਾ  ਮਿਟਿ  ਗਇਆ  ਜਤ  ਦੇਖਉ  ਤਤ  ਤੂ  ॥੨੦੪॥ 
जब आपा पर का मिटि गइआ जत देखउ तत तू ॥२०४॥ 
*Jab āpā par kā mit ga▫i▫ā jaṯ ḏekẖ▫a▫u ṯaṯ ṯū. ||204|| 
When the difference between myself and others is removed, then wherever I look, I see only You. ||204|| *
   </td></tr><tr></tr></tbody></table>


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2013)

> The 'I AM' - the experiencer - that exists within all of us... the part  of you (and me and everyone) that 'experiences'... IS THE ONE.
> 
> Recognize that 'HE IS ME'
> Realize your 'OWN SELF'



Akasha Ji,

Gurfateh to you. It is understood by me that words can't explain much about realization and experiences....as in Goongey Ki Mithiyai.... so that's why we often read books and entire texts because we are hungry for the right way to describe those lofty experiences. Many a time, we end up in hair-splitting debates simply because words of duality are still used when trying to explain the one-ness. In Gurbani the word Sohang has been used to express (Page 1093) I am He, and He is Me.


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2013)

In my opinion this thread is destined to be a theological train wreck. The shabad is not related to the topic of the thread. The only connection to be made is with the theme of separation.

One might note that whenever the concepts of atma, separation, and the pain of separation are mentioned in SGGS ji they are the context NOT the lesson of any particular shabad.

Some comments of late may lead us to a place where we are behaving not unlike the brahmins who are gurus to the world but not gurus of the devotee Kabir. 

Are any of these questions relevant to Guru Nanak's teachings?

If the perception of separation is an illusion, why would connection not also be an illusion? 
We assume that some mental process, let's call it Ego, causes the false perception of separation. But how does atma gain a false sense of separation, such that it feels pain or suffers?
 Does Ego suffer pain, or does atma suffer pain? Or do they both suffer pain?
Does Ego make atma aware of its sense of separation or connection? Or does atma do this independently of Ego?
 Does atma have perceptions?
Is an atma capable of perceiving itself as separated or connected?
Is there one atma for each individual person? 
If there is one atma for each individual, then by definition atmas are all separate and the perception of being separated is correct, and not an illusion.
On the other hand, perhaps all atmas are connected through the divine principal of God in All. 
If all atmas are connected indirectly through the Sat, then how do some of them get disconnected? 
Or do all of them become disconnected? 
Do a rare few remain connected through an individual lifetime?
Let's assume that the Ego or False Self is a very individual process. How do individual egos cause the inter-connected atmas to experience the illusion of separation? Which part of the connected atma decouples from the others?

In sum, is it atma or something else that experiences the pain of separation? Presumably all of these questions have answers. We might find however that the answers take us outside the teachings of SGGS ji. Some answers might be answers to questions that are important to Islam, or Christianity, or Zoroastrianism, but not to Sikhi.


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## Luckysingh (Aug 3, 2013)

The soul doesn't forget !
It is the Ego that overrides the recognition of the soul, once the ego diminishes then the timeless soul within can flourish.

In sidh gosht p945, the sidhs ask what is the soul and how does the sun submerge into the moon.

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਕਹਾ ਬਸੀਅਲੇ ਕਹਾ ਬਸੈ ਇਹੁ ਪਵਨਾ ॥ 

Ih man maigal kahā basī▫ale kahā basai ih pavnā. 

Where does this mind-elephant live? Where does the breath reside? 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਹਾ ਬਸੈ ਸੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਉਧੂ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਚੂਕੈ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਵਨਾ ॥ 

Kahā basai so sabaḏ a▫oḏẖū ṯā ka▫o cẖūkai man kā bẖavnā. 

Where should the Shabad reside, so that the wanderings of the mind may cease? 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਤਾ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ 

Naḏar kare ṯā saṯgur mele ṯā nij gẖar vāsā ih man pā▫e. 

When the Lord blesses one with His Glance of Grace, he leads him to the True Guru. Then, this mind dwells in its own home within. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੈ ਆਪੁ ਖਾਇ ਤਾ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ 

Āpai āp kẖā▫e ṯā nirmal hovai ḏẖāvaṯ varaj rahā▫e. 

When the individual consumes his egotism, he becomes immaculate, and his wandering mind is restrained. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਿਉ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਆਤਮੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਿਉ ਸਸਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥ 

Ki▫o mūl pacẖẖāṇai āṯam jāṇai ki▫o sas gẖar sūr samāvai. 

How can the root, the source of all be realized? How can the soul know itself? How can the sun enter into the house of the moon? 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਵੈ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੬੪॥ 

Gurmukẖ ha▫umai vicẖahu kẖovai ṯa▫o NānaThe Gurmukh eliminates egotism from within; then, O Nanak, the sun naturally enters into the home of the moon. ||64|| 
k sahj samāvai. ||64|| 



The sun is a reference to fiery mind with ego, passion and ignorance whereas the moon is calm and free of ego, pure and no dualities.
See some explanations in sidh ghost thread if needed. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/40157-guru-nanak-dev-ji-being-asked.html#post179901
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2013)

Luckysingh ji

This is the point



> ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਤਾ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
> 
> Naḏar kare ṯā saṯgur mele ṯā nij gẖar vāsā ih man pā▫e.
> 
> When the Lord blesses one with His Glance of Grace, he leads him to the True Guru. Then, this mind dwells in its own home within.



It is the answer to how we make the connection. Everything else is mental gymnastics. No credit goes to anything other than "satguru." This was Guru Nanak's answer to questions about the how's and why's of atma, the how's and why's of sachkhand or any other of the khands, and the how's and why's of heaven, hell and life after death. When one achieves this, one has it all.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 3, 2013)

Astroboy said:


> Akasha Ji,
> 
> Gurfateh to you. It is understood by me that words can't explain much about realization and experiences....as in Goongey Ki Mithiyai.... so that's why we often read books and entire texts because we are hungry for the right way to describe those lofty experiences. Many a time, we end up in hair-splitting debates simply because words of duality are still used when trying to explain the one-ness. In Gurbani the word Sohang has been used to express (Page 1093) I am He, and He is Me.



It Is very difficult indeed!  I have ideas in my head and putting them into words so others can know what I am trying to say is not easy.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Aug 3, 2013)

spnadmin Ji,  



spnadmin said:


> In my opinion this thread is destined to be a theological train wreck. The shabad is not related to the topic of the thread. The only connection to be made is with the theme of separation.
> 
> It's relevant in the sense that to the concept of surviving physical death requires a nonphysical part of you that is what survives.  So the question of soul is very connected to the question of 'afterlife' etc.
> 
> ...



I don't think they take us away from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at all.  Again it depends on what side of that divide you sit on.  If you are interpreting things from a purely scientific and 5 senses point of view, then you might think different than someone who interprets Gurbani from a spiritual point of view.  Not trying to raise any arguments or anything... I am only trying to explain my beliefs and understanding of Gurbani.  Just because we have differing opinions of interpretation does not mean that one side should ban the other side from voicing theirs because it does not agree with theirs.  As Tejwant Ji said already, Gurbani is open to interpretation and that's the beauty of it.  

I believe we can agree to disagree...


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## spnadmin (Aug 3, 2013)

akasha ji

Just to be clear. I am not sitting on any divide with respect to these particular questions. They are there to demonstrate how little we know, not how much I think I know, about atma, separation, illusion, and the role played by haumei.

There are those who do not hesitate to explain these concepts from their personal experience. "Talking about" will be as varied as their are talkers; and explanations will be as different as their experiences are.

If I am sitting on any divide, it is the division between careful vichaar of Shabad Guru and the fulmination of personal opinions that the Internet invites. Because I take my own ignorance very seriously, I also take my role as chela of the Guru to heart. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only tool I have to separate the signal from the noise.

Thanks for taking a crack at the questions. I was not expecting answers, but posted them only so that people would realize how each question contains the seeds of its own nemesis in truth,  and how easy it is to step into logical fallacy and contradiction. The beautiful camel mind is a very clever mind; sometimes it is so anxious for a cool drink that it mistakes a mirage for the spring.  The camel is smart enough to know when he is lapping up sand. We are not always so smart. We humans at times will remain faithful to the mirage, in the belief sand is more nourishing than water.

p/s I myself do not have answers for those questions. Not a clue.


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## findingmyway (Aug 3, 2013)

As an outside observer coming to the thread for the first time today, I am struck by the attitude of many posters of you are either with us or against us. I must admit I also used to fall into this trap when I was new here. It is important to recognise that each person's understanding covers a spectrum. Each of those spectrums will overlap at points. Having an 'us and them' attitude is not healthy as then people are debating, i.e. proving a point, rather than discussing to learn. It also invites judgements on topics beyond the one being discussed leading to conflict.


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