# 8.4 Million Species ?



## imran_c (Dec 21, 2005)

hi everyone ive read the guru granth and ive read these verse can you explain please what they mean ??

*Page485 Line 8 Raag Aasaa: Saint Nam Dev*

bieAwlIs lK jI jl mih hoqy bITlu BYlw kwie krau ]1] 
*baeiaalees lakh jee jal mehi hothae beethal bhailaa kaae karo ||1|| *
But 4.2 million species of beings are in the water - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||1|| 

*Page526 Line 3 Raag Goojree: Saint Trilochan*

lK caurwsIh ijin@ aupweI so ismrhu inrbwxI ]3] 
*lakh chouraaseeh jinih oupaaee so simarahu nirabaanee ||3|| *
Meditate on the Lord of Nirvaanaa, who has created the 8.4 million species of beings. ||3|| 


lK caurwsIh mydnI GtY n vDY auqwih ] 
*lakh chouraaseeh maedhanee ghattai n vadhhai outhaahi || *
They will pass through 8.4 millions species; this number does not decrease or rise.

Because biologist believe there are as many as 100,000 million species can you please please explain what this means

becuase i really find this as a contradiction in scientific fact thats why i would like to now if any sikh could explain what this means 

Cheers


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Gurfateh

Well Brother Imran.
In the same Guru Granth Sahib Ji there are metions of Billions of Paigambers as well as Farishta as per Islamic belife.(Verse by Bhakt Kabir Ji)

Sikhs do belive that of which sicne has not faith but Holy Kuran has.

coming to your point,God we belive in infinte.

And there are often  verse talkijng about infinaite universes as well infinte livng beings.

Like Sant Kabir Ji in his that particuar verse talked about islamic belife just to show himslef little in front of Aallah.(Kabir Sahib was a Muslim,Parents name was Nima and Neeru and son had name Kamaal).

So here in this verse Bhakt Namdev Ji are just singing the glory of God using Hindu faith about vasteness of spicies or creation by Allah and he is too small.

Anyway so far biologist have belife about terms you have told.But her need to rember that each year there could be more spicies getting discovered,some getting vanished and some new spices getting involived.

in fact here term is being refered to 42 or 84 for those getting made at one point of time but creation and destrction is still on.

You have missed one big thing in verse which the person who tranlated did not understood even.


lK caurwsIh mydnI GtY n vDY auqwih ] 
*lakh chouraaseeh maedhanee ghattai n vadhhai outhaahi || *
They will pass through 8.4 millions species; this number does not decrease or rise.


Refer to the term Maedhanee.

this refer to matter making living beings.

The matter remains constant as the energy which makes it want or rather that energy which makes the mattter remains constant.

to be mroe clear as per semtic faiths,soil which makes bodies of human do not rise or fall but remain constant.

das request you to give page number of this particualr verse.

Other verses are givne below as whole and try to understand them as a whole.


ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

ਅੰਤਰੁ ਮਲਿ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੇਖ ਉਦਾਸੀ ॥ 
अंतरु मलि निरमलु नही कीना बाहरि भेख उदासी ॥ 
antar mal nirmal nahee keenaa baahar bhaykh udaasee. 
You have not cleansed the filth from within yourself, although outwardly, you wear the dress of a renunciate. 

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਕਮਲੁ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਭਇਆ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ॥੧॥ 
हिरदै कमलु घटि ब्रहमु न चीन्हा काहे भइआ संनिआसी ॥१॥ 
hirdai kamal ghat barahm na cheenHaa kaahay bha-i-aa sani-aasee. ||1|| 
In the heart-lotus of your self, you have not recognized God - why have you become a Sannyaasee? ||1|| 

ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲੀ ਰੇ ਜੈ ਚੰਦਾ ॥ 
भरमे भूली रे जै चंदा ॥ 
bharmay bhoolee ray jai chandaa. 
Deluded by doubt, O Jai Chand, 

ਨਹੀ ਨਹੀ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
नही नही चीन्हिआ परमानंदा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
nahee nahee cheenHi-aa parmaanandaa. ||1|| rahaa-o. 
you have not realized the Lord, the embodiment of supreme bliss. ||1||Pause|| 

ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਖਾਇਆ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਬਧਾਇਆ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਮੁੰਦਾ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
घरि घरि खाइआ पिंडु बधाइआ खिंथा मुंदा माइआ ॥ 
ghar ghar khaa-i-aa pind baDhaa-i-aa khinthaa munda maa-i-aa. 
You eat in each and every house, fattening your body; you wear the patched coat and the ear-rings of the beggar, for the sake of wealth. 

ਭੂਮਿ ਮਸਾਣ ਕੀ ਭਸਮ ਲਗਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
भूमि मसाण की भसम लगाई गुर बिनु ततु न पाइआ ॥२॥ 
bhoom masaan kee bhasam lagaa-ee gur bin tat na paa-i-aa. ||2|| 
You apply the ashes of cremation to your body, but without a Guru, you have not found the essence of reality. ||2|| 

ਕਾਇ ਜਪਹੁ ਰੇ ਕਾਇ ਤਪਹੁ ਰੇ ਕਾਇ ਬਿਲੋਵਹੁ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ 
काइ जपहु रे काइ तपहु रे काइ बिलोवहु पाणी ॥ 
kaa-ay japahu ray kaa-ay taphu ray kaa-ay bilovahu paanee. 
Why bother to chant your spells? Why bother to practice austerities? Why bother to churn water? 

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਸੋ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥੩॥ 
लख चउरासीह जिन्हि उपाई सो सिमरहु निरबाणी ॥३॥ 
lakh cha-oraaseeh jiniH upaa-ee so simrahu nirbaanee. ||3|| 
Meditate on the Lord of Nirvaanaa, who has created the 8.4 million species of beings. ||3|| 

ਕਾਇ ਕਮੰਡਲੁ ਕਾਪੜੀਆ ਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਕਾਇ ਫਿਰਾਹੀ ॥ 
काइ कमंडलु कापड़ीआ रे अठसठि काइ फिराही ॥ 
kaa-ay kamandal kaaprhee-aa ray athsath kaa-ay firaa-ee. 
Why bother to carry the water-pot, O saffron-robed Yogi? Why bother to visit the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage? 

ਬਦਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਕਣ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਾਹੁ ਕਿ ਪਾਹੀ ॥੪॥੧॥ 
बदति त्रिलोचनु सुनु रे प्राणी कण बिनु गाहु कि पाही ॥४॥१॥ 
badat tarilochan sun ray paraanee kan bin gaahu ke paahee. ||4||1|| 
Says Trilochan, listen, mortal: you have no corn - what are you trying to thresh? ||4||1|| 


Here when it is said that 84 lakhs are made that does not made only 84 lacs but surely that much are made.Say if there are 10000 million on earth there coould be millions in other plantets of the universe which Japu ji saihb and other scriputres say.

ie millions of skys and millions of nether worlds.

Unverse as plurals are talked.

Then in Sukhmain Sahib it is writtan we have Billions of creature of filth,billions of swines,bilions of deers. and about unseen spirits etc.
Lastly if it is writtan that God has created 84 lacs that does not means god has not created more.

Like das is answering you this thread that does not means that das will not answer other threads.

Or say if we say that you have vsisted Al aksa then it may not mean that ytou have not visited holy Mecca.yuo might have been there also.

ਆਸਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਜੀ ਕੀ 
आसा बाणी स्री नामदेउ जी की 
aasaa banee saree naamday-o jee kee 
Aasaa, The Word Of The Reverend Naam Dayv Jee: 

ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਿਆਪਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਸੋਈ ॥ 
एक अनेक बिआपक पूरक जत देखउ तत सोई ॥ 
ayk anayk bi-aapak poorak jat daykh-a-u tat so-ee. 
In the one and in the many, He is pervading and permeating; wherever I look, there He is. 

ਮਾਇਆ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਮੋਹਿਤ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ 
माइआ चित्र बचित्र बिमोहित बिरला बूझै कोई ॥१॥ 
maa-i-aa chitar bachitar bimohit birlaa boojhai ko-ee. ||1|| 
The marvellous image of Maya is so fascinating; how few understand this. ||1|| 

ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
सभु गोबिंदु है सभु गोबिंदु है गोबिंद बिनु नही कोई ॥ 
sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahee ko-ee. 
God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all. 

ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
सूतु एकु मणि सत सहंस जैसे ओति पोति प्रभु सोई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
soot ayk man sat sahaNs jaisay ot pot parabh so-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o. 
As one thread holds hundreds and thousands of beads, He is woven into His creation. ||1||Pause|| 

ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਫੇਨ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
जल तरंग अरु फेन बुदबुदा जल ते भिंन न होई ॥ 
jal tarang ar fayn budbudaa jal tay bhinn na ho-ee. 
The waves of the water, the foam and bubbles, are not distinct from the water. 

ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ 
इहु परपंचु पारब्रहम की लीला बिचरत आन न होई ॥२॥ 
ih parpanch paarbarahm kee leelaa bichrat aan na ho-ee. ||2|| 
This manifested world is the playful game of the Supreme Lord God; reflecting upon it, we find that it is not different from Him. ||2|| 

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਰੁ ਸੁਪਨ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਸਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
मिथिआ भरमु अरु सुपन मनोरथ सति पदारथु जानिआ ॥ 
mithi-aa bharam ar supan manorath sat padaarath jaani-aa. 
False doubts and dream objects - man believes them to be true. 

ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਮਨਸਾ ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੀ ਜਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥ 
सुक्रित मनसा गुर उपदेसी जागत ही मनु मानिआ ॥३॥ 
sukarit mansaa gur updaysee jaagat hee man maani-aa. ||3|| 
The Guru has instructed me to try to do good deeds, and my awakened mind has accepted this. ||3|| 

ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ 
कहत नामदेउ हरि की रचना देखहु रिदै बीचारी ॥ 
kahat naamday-o har kee rachnaa daykhhu ridai beechaaree. 
Says Naam Dayv, see the Creation of the Lord, and reflect upon it in your heart. 

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਏਕ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੧॥ 
घट घट अंतरि सरब निरंतरि केवल एक मुरारी ॥४॥१॥ 
ghat ghat antar sarab nirantar kayval ayk muraaree. ||4||1|| 
In each and every heart, and deep within the very nucleus of all, is the One Lord. ||4||1|| 

ਆਸਾ ॥ 
आसा ॥ 
aasaa. 
Aasaa: 

ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕੁੰਭ ਭਰਾਈਲੇ ਊਦਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਉ ॥ 
आनीले कु्मभ भराईले ऊदक ठाकुर कउ इसनानु करउ ॥ 
aaneelay kumbh bharaa-eelay oodak thaakur ka-o isnaan kara-o. 
Bringing the pitcher, I fill it with water, to bathe the Lord. 

ਬਇਆਲੀਸ ਲਖ ਜੀ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਤੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ ॥੧॥ 
बइआलीस लख जी जल महि होते बीठलु भैला काइ करउ ॥१॥ 
ba-i-aalees lakh jee jal meh hotay beethal bhailaa kaa-ay kara-o. ||1|| 
But 4.2 million species of beings are in the water - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||1|| 

ਜਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਉ ਤਤ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ॥ 
जत्र जाउ तत बीठलु भैला ॥ 
jatar jaa-o tat beethal bhailaa. 
Wherever I go, the Lord is there. 

ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦ ਕਰੇ ਸਦ ਕੇਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
महा अनंद करे सद केला ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
mahaa anand karay sad kaylaa. ||1|| rahaa-o. 
He continually plays in supreme bliss. ||1||Pause|| 

ਆਨੀਲੇ ਫੂਲ ਪਰੋਈਲੇ ਮਾਲਾ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੀ ਹਉ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ॥ 
आनीले फूल परोईले माला ठाकुर की हउ पूज करउ ॥ 
aaneelay fool paro-eelay maalaa thaakur kee ha-o pooj kara-o. 
I bring flowers to weave a garland, in worshipful adoration of the Lord. 

ਪਹਿਲੇ ਬਾਸੁ ਲਈ ਹੈ ਭਵਰਹ ਬੀਠਲ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ ॥੨॥ 
पहिले बासु लई है भवरह बीठल भैला काइ करउ ॥२॥ 
pahilay baas la-ee hai bhavrah beethal bhailaa kaa-ay kara-o. ||2|| 
But the bumble bee has already sucked out the fragrance - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||2|| 

ਆਨੀਲੇ ਦੂਧੁ ਰੀਧਾਈਲੇ ਖੀਰੰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਨੈਵੇਦੁ ਕਰਉ ॥ 
आनीले दूधु रीधाईले खीरं ठाकुर कउ नैवेदु करउ ॥ 
aaneelay dooDh reeDhaa-eelay kheeraN thaakur ka-o naivayd kara-o. 
I carry milk and cook it to make pudding, with which to feed the Lord. 

ਪਹਿਲੇ ਦੂਧੁ ਬਿਟਾਰਿਓ ਬਛਰੈ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ ॥੩॥ 
पहिले दूधु बिटारिओ बछरै बीठलु भैला काइ करउ ॥३॥ 
pahilay dooDh bitaari-o bachhrai beethal bhailaa kaa-ay kara-o. ||3|| 
But the calf has already tasted the milk - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||3|| 

ਈਭੈ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਊਭੈ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਬੀਠਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਨਹੀ ॥ 
ईभै बीठलु ऊभै बीठलु बीठल बिनु संसारु नही ॥ 
eebhai beethal oobhai beethal beethal bin sansaar nahee. 
The Lord is here, the Lord is there; without the Lord, there is no world at all. 

ਥਾਨ ਥਨੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਤੂੰ ਸਰਬ ਮਹੀ ॥੪॥੨॥ 
थान थनंतरि नामा प्रणवै पूरि रहिओ तूं सरब मही ॥४॥२॥ 
thaan thanantar naamaa paranvai poor rahi-o tooN sarab mahee. ||4||2|| 
Prays Naam Dayv, O Lord, You are totally permeating and pervading all places and interspaces. ||4||2|| 

In the second verse read it carefull it is taking about 42 lac of organism in water which was to used to wash idol.

As per Hindus thier god is vegitarian.So there is talk of jivanu or microrganism unseen by eyes in water.Here water being talked about is water of that pitcher which may have that much micro organism.


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## imran_c (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

hello,

Ok you asked me to give reference of the verse so here it is:
Section 22 - Raag Raamkalee - Part 061
[SIZE=-1]936 : 2690 [/SIZE]

i dont understand this because how can it be that 
if there are 10000 million on earth there coould be millions in other plantets of the universe which Japu ji saihb and other scriputres say.
ok but how is this devine revalation becuase in your post it says that there could be millions in other planets, but surely if it is the word of god then how is it then??

Also you now the:

bieAwlIs lK jI jl mih hoqy bITlu BYlw kwie krau ]1] 
*baeiaalees lakh jee jal mehi hothae beethal bhailaa kaae karo ||1|| *
But 4.2 million species of beings are in the water - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||1|| 

can you explain this verse because it says that there are 4.2 million speices of beings in the water. Isnt this a error??

Also can you tellme was the Granth a devine revlation???


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## kds1980 (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

wjkk
wjkf

     guru granth sahib is written in hymns. each hymn has particular  divine message.it is very difficuilt to understand.sometimes the popular beleives of that time are written in it you cannot take one or two lines and ask for the meaning.


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## imran_c (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

so the granth aint a devine and a direct word of god?


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## Admin (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Welcome Imran, 

So, you do know who is God?


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## imran_c (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

my question was :
so the granth aint a devine and a direct word of god?


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## Admin (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

my question is do you know who is God?


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## imran_c (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

lol singh ive just asked a simple question can you please answer my question please  i just asked is the granth the direct words of god??


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## Admin (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

well, i am a ignorant on the path of spurituality to make such a judgement...


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## kds1980 (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



			
				imran_c said:
			
		

> so the granth aint a devine and a direct word of god?


wjkk
wjkf
Guru granth sahib is divine.the message in each hymn is divine.
here are the verses from guru granth sahib which says that gurbani is from god
siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ]
sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanahu gurasikhahu har karathaa aap muhahu kadtaaeae ||
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.
Guru Raam Daas Ji 
Raag Gauree 
308 
qw mY kihAw khxu jw quJY khwieAw ]
thaa mai kehiaa kehan jaa thujhai kehaaeiaa ||
When I have spoken, I spoke as You made me speak.
Guru Nanak Dev Ji 
Raag Vadhans 
566 
Dur kI bwxI AweI ]
dhhur kee baanee aaee ||
The Bani of His Word emanated from the Primal Lord.
Guru Arjan Dev Ji 
Raag Sorath 
628 
jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ]
jaisee mai aavai khasam kee baanee thaisarraa karee giaan vae laalo ||
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

*Dear Imran *

*Assalamualaikum*


*I can see you are so eager to what does it mean by 8.4 million species as written in Guru Granth Sahib *

*I was also similarly eager to answer you but just now got time with the will of Akal ( god)*

*I will try to help you as much as i can with his will*

*now your first statement that there are 100 million species according to scientist *


*Dear Friend you above statement is not correct to start with this the no of estimated species that is the wildest guess of scientist guess what is the no of species that have classified yet is 1.75 million in total . for your reference i am quoting different scientific source*
*Number of Species*


*The Physics Factbook™*
*Edited by Glenn Elert An educational, Fair Use website*​
*Bibliographic Entry*

*Result*
*(w/surrounding text)*
*Standardized*​
*Result*​
*"Animal." World Book Encyclopedia. 16 vols. Chicago: World Book, 2003.*

*"So far scientists have named and classified more than 1 1/2 million animals. Over half of these are types of insects and other species are discovered each year. Scientists believe there may be from 2 million to as many as 50 million kinds of animals alive today."*
*2 - 50 million*​
*1996 IUCN Red List of Threatened Animals. The World Conservation Union (IUCN), 26 May 2003.*

*"Furthermore, there are currently about 1.5 to 1.8 million named species, but it is estimated that the actual number of species in the world ranges from 5 to 10 million (May et al. 1995)."*
*5 - 10 million*​
*Wolosz, Thomas. How Many Species are There? Center for Earth & Environmental Sciences, SUNY at Plattsburgh, 1988.*

*"The most commonly quoted estimate is somewhere between is somewhere between 30 and 50 millions based on Erwin's (1988,1997) study of tropical insects."*
*30 - 50 million*​
*Just How Many Species Are There, Anyway? Society For Conservation Biology. 26 May 2003.*

*" 'Right now we can only guess that the correct answer for the total number of species lies between 2 and 100 million,' says [Michael] Rosenzweig."*
*2 - 100 million*​
*Taxonomy is a science that directly involves classifying animals, plants, and other organisms into groups of similar characteristics. Scientists have tried for many decades to name and accurately classify all of the species on earth. In order to classify living organisms into groups or families of similar characteristics they follow a method created by Carolus Linnaeus, which provides a two-word Latin name for the species. In his system of classification, the first word is the genus name and the second is usually an adjective describing a particular characteristic, also known as the species name. A species name is given with respect to different external characteristics the organism may possess due to interbreeding. An organism's species name is sometimes referred to as a sub-division of its genus characteristics.*
*Currently, scientists have named and successfully classified over 1.5 million species. It is estimated that there are as little as 2 million to as many as 50 million more species that have not yet been found and/or have been incorrectly classified. Estimates vary from scientist to scientist because it is close to impossible to truly know whether there are any more species living that are not by the tip of the scientists' noses. As fields such as microbiology progress, scientists of taxonomy become more capable of accurately classifying species of the past and present.*
*Due to the loss of species and biodiversity scientists are not able to catch up with the rate at which the species are leaving the ecosystem. This loss of biodiversity is usually directly linked with deforestation. Specialists believe that, at the current rate of extinction, during the course of the next half-century one-third of all organisms will be lost.*
*Felix Nisimov -- 2003*






*Actually your query could be just finished here but I would prefer to solve this problem even to further level as the message of Gurugranth is valid till trinity so atleast i should give you answer for coming few thousand year to come *

*Now the thing is the word species you are equating with word JUNEE OR JANAM as mentioned in Guru GRanth sahib is not the exactly same *

*Darwin who has done the major work in the classification and other theories of the Species was born in 18 century somewhat in first decade and Our first Guru Ji walked the on the Earth in 15 century so he has used this word well before darwin was ever born is essentially not the same and cant be the same *

*Because as Understanding given to me by AKAL Guru granth Talk of infinite earths and Planets and so it teven incude the so called species of all the possible Universes so it is big big classification and also include the things you can see even ( i will explain this later )*

*so darwin theory and mordern classifivcation is just baby play of God (AKAL) who has sent this message - Guru GRanth Sahib and so it talks about the classification ayt much bigger level *

*I you seems to confused I am giving you the different types of available defination and ways in which you can define species and undre each type the no of creature will be diffrent *

*Typological species *

*A group of organisms in which individuals are members of the species if they sufficiently conform to certain fixed properties. The clusters of variations or phenotypes within specimens (ie: longer and shorter tails) would differentiate the species. This method was used as a "classical" method of determining species, such as with Linnaeus early in evolutionary theory. However, we now know that different phenotypes do not always constitute different species (e.g.: a 4-winged Drosophila born to a 2-winged mother is not a different species). Species named in this manner are called morphospecies. *

*Morphological species *
*A population or group of populations that differs morphologically from other populations. For example, we can distinguish between a **chicken** and a **duck** because they have different shaped bills and the duck has webbed feet. Species have been defined in this way since well before the beginning of recorded history. This species concept is much criticised because more recent genetic data reveals that genetically distinct populations may look very similar and, contrarily, large morphological differences sometimes exist between very closely-related populations. Nonetheless, most species known have been described solely from morphology. *

*Biological / Isolation species *

*A set of actually or potentially interbreeding populations. This is generally the most useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but meaningless for **organisms** that do not reproduce sexually. It does not distinguish between the theoretical possibility of interbreeding and the actual likelihood of gene flow between populations and is thus impractical in instances of allopatric (geographically isolated) populations. The results of breeding experiments done in artificial conditions may or may not reflect what would happen if the same organisms encountered each other in the wild, making it difficult to gauge whether or not the results of such experiments are meaningful in reference to natural populations. *
*Mate-recognition species *

*A group of organisms that are known to recognise one another as potential mates. Like the isolation species concept above, it applies only to organisms that reproduce sexually. Unlike the isolation species concept, it focuses specifically on pre-mating reproductive isolation. *

*Phylogenetic / Evolutionary / Darwinian species *

*A group of organisms that shares an ancestor; a lineage that maintains its integrity with respect to other lineages through both time and space. At some point in the progress of such a group, members may diverge from one another: when such a divergence becomes sufficiently clear, the two populations are regarded as separate species. *



*Microspecies *
*Species that reproduce without **meiosis** or **mitosis** so that each generation is genetically identical to the previous generation. See also **apomixis**. *



*Noe what doe the JUNEE or species as mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib means *

*well as per my understandin g with the will od AKAL *

*even a ROCK is a species ( which has no place in mordern classification )*

*All the demigods and Devtas of hindu religion are also classified in it ( which has no place in mordern classification )*

*All the Raksha and Apsaras (angels of hindu heaven ) are also included in species*
*( which has no place in mordern classification )*


*All the Jins and angels ( as acoording to islam there are two types of being visible and invisible . and Prophet Mohhamed said that Allah Craeted both jins and human jsut to serve him and they are diffretiate don bases of no of elements they are made of Jins I think has three elements )*


*And there many others yet to be found and so Guru Granth is not Sectarian Message it is the message for whole the creation whether it is muslim Hindu or christian or even if it is invisible Creatures . so when God / Allah ? Akal *
*talks it talks on much much bigger scale and wew humans find it difficult to mactch it and so is the confusion *


*Dear Imran If you query is sincere then GOD/ Allah/ Akal always provide yo the answer as it always provided to useless creatures like me I hope you also find answer to you r query *





*Your Brother *


*Jatinder Singh*


----------



## The lion king (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

I always believed the number '8.4' was taken as a metaphor. my understanding of the verse is that it is meant there is a unlimited number of species. As someone said the SGGS is written in poetry form, like every other eastern religion. so you cant take the verse literally...


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## imran_c (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

*Page485 Line 8 Raag Aasaa: Saint Nam Dev*

bieAwlIs lK jI jl mih hoqy bITlu BYlw kwie krau ]1] 
*baeiaalees lakh jee jal mehi hothae beethal bhailaa kaae karo ||1|| *
But 4.2 million species of beings are in the water - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||1||

what about this verse becuae i really dont think this is a metaphore so can you explain please?

also if it is the direct word of god why does it say in this verse:

(this is under : Raag Maajh)
hir jIau ik®pw krhu guru mylhu jn nwnk hir Dnu plY jIau ]4]1] (94-9, mwJ, mÚ 4)
har jee-o kirpaa karahu gur maylhu jan naanak har Dhan palai jee-o. ||4||1||
O Dear Lord, please show Mercy to me, that I may meet the Guru. Servant Nanak gathers the Wealth of the Lord's Name in his lap. ||4||1||

becuase this verse indicates that it is a third person saying it not a DIRECT WORDS OF GOD. Can you please explain because i have many questions :{;o: but this is the first couple of questions


----------



## drkhalsa (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



> bieAwlIs lK jI jl mih hoqy bITlu BYlw kwie krau ]1]
> *baeiaalees lakh jee jal mehi hothae beethal bhailaa kaae karo ||1|| *
> But 4.2 million species of beings are in the water - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||1||
> 
> ...


 

Dear Imran

I answered you question and you seems to ignore it 


Or you didnt like the answer



Jatinder Singh


----------



## drkhalsa (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*




> this is under : Raag Maajh)
> hir jIau ik®pw krhu guru mylhu jn nwnk hir Dnu plY jIau ]4]1] (94-9, mwJ, mÚ 4)
> har jee-o kirpaa karahu gur maylhu jan naanak har Dhan palai jee-o. ||4||1||
> O Dear Lord, please show Mercy to me, that I may meet the Guru. Servant Nanak gathers the Wealth of the Lord's Name in his lap. ||4||1||
> ...


 


Your all questions are welcome dear bring them on and lets ponder on it 

As per your this question it is very simple answer god is not speaking first person because he is not a person or human just like you and me he is god , if you expect him to speak in a first person just like you and me then you are reducing god to defination of human which is Absolutely wrong as he is infinite unboundable 


I think this was really simple one isnt it





Jatinder Singh


----------



## imran_c (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

so this means that the granth isnt the direct words of God??


----------



## drkhalsa (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



> so this means that the granth isnt the direct words of God??


 

No it just means that It is direct words of god but God is not a human being like us  


Jatinder Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Gurfateh

Brother Imran,


yuo had an answer by das himself.

The term jeevs is for organism in water and not the speices.If you take a pitcher of water in humid area like Mahrasthra where Namdev Ji Maharaj there and use micro scope you will get miiliions of water.

If you have not understood that thing then das can qoute holy Kuran itself which sates that there are mayn relative statements.

but in Guru Granth Sahib there are more absolute.

And weather it is word of God or not.

They way Holy Kuran is based upon Ihlam so is this.(Ihlam is word of God).

but then you tell me where does your God live if God lives in Sevnth Sky only on the throne heald by Farishtas or Angewl then God will occupy space
and will have volume so shape and God with shape can never be God.

Allah is  Noor but not restrcited to Heavan.Say if God lives only in Heavan then there is shape of God.

And when God did Creaton it needed a space where it should stand ,Can you tell me who created that space there could be bigger then that God who is dependant on space.

god we beive in in formless becasue it does not Makes or Creates but Manifests.God is in all space and all creation are varous forms of God so God is formless.

All voices ,all spaces are of God,Refer Arti by First Master.

only a person who does not know God can argue about whether this thing is by God or Not as all are from God.But in with some God wants to let them in Mammon so that in Them god enjoys the pleasure thier pain and sorrows.

to others who God mnaakes one with self they are free of Joy or Soorow or movements.

God had wanted all too reach that satate then mainfestaion of universe would not have occuered.

god by self tells us about glory of Unlimted Universes and spaces with God.If God in us wants to let us know we knwo but all may not knaow as they have to take part in Dram enacted by God in manifestation.

Try to understand what Das means.

Rember what you write is not writtan by you but by Will of God in you.What you think,what you bradth you have no control.

so if you do not understand that it will be will of God who is in you.


AS a Sikh das can not even pray for you as we have to be happy as God keeps us and no bribe or rituals to God.
Allah Hafiz


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Gurfateh

Das did use term with uncertionity by the fact that when Gurbani was writtan and what is now God who keeps on making and breaking might have changed a good lots of things in variois parts of the various Univeres.

many new Plante,star or even universe are bron while das write but only if god wants.

Our God is infinaite and Guru Granth Sahib tells us to be binded by God and not by any book which is only one part of all space occupiying God.

needless to say understand ing holy Kuran or Guru Granth Sahib is not in hands of Man but in will of God.


Awpy cquru srUpu hY Awpy jwxu sujwxu ]42] (936-2, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
aapay chatur saroop hai aapay jaan sujaan. ||42||
He Himself is clever and so very beautiful; He Himself is wise and all-knowing. ||42||
jo Awvih sy jwih Puin Awie gey pCuqwih ] (936-3, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
jo aavahi say jaahi fun aa-ay ga-ay pachhutaahi.
Those who come, must go in the end; they come and go, regretting and repenting.
lK caurwsIh mydnI GtY n vDY auqwih ] (936-3, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
lakh cha-oraaseeh maydnee ghatai na vaDhai utaahi.

Here it may means the composing Part of all creation or at least these 84 lacs of organism ie ether or Medini can n ot be increased or decreased by any one who is born.

Ie Our deeds can not make any differance to glory of God and God's power or volume.


 
sy jn aubry ijn hir BwieAw ] (936-3, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
say jan ubray jin har bhaa-i-aa.
They alone are saved, who love the Lord.
DMDw muAw ivgUqI mwieAw ] (936-4, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
DhanDhaa mu-aa vigootee maa-i-aa.
Their worldly entanglements are ended, and Maya is conquered.
jo dIsY so cwlsI iks kau mIqu kryau ] (936-4, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
jo deesai so chaalsee kis ka-o meet karay-o.
Whoever is seen, shall depart; who should I make my friend?
jIau smpau Awpxw qnu mnu AwgY dyau ] (936-5, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
jee-o sampa-o aapnaa tan man aagai day-o.
I dedicate my soul, and place my body and mind in offering before Him.
AsiQru krqw qU DxI iqs hI kI mY Et ] (936-5, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
asthir kartaa too Dhanee tis hee kee mai ot.
You are eternally stable, O Creator, Lord and Master; I lean on Your Support.
gux kI mwrI hau mueI sbid rqI min cot ]43] (936-5, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
gun kee maaree ha-o mu-ee sabad ratee man chot. ||43||
Conquered by virtue, egotism is killed; imbued with the Word of the Shabad, the mind rejects the world. ||43||
rwxw rwau n ko rhY rMgu n quMgu PkIru ] (936-6, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
raanaa raa-o na ko rahai rang na tung fakeer.
Neither the kings nor the nobles will remain; neither the rich nor the poor will remain.
vwrI Awpo AwpxI koie n bMDY DIr ] (936-6, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
vaaree aapo aapnee ko-ay na banDhai Dheer.
When one's turn comes, no one can stay here.
rwhu burw BIhwvlw sr fUgr Asgwh ] (936-7, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
raahu buraa bheehaavalaa sar doogar asgaah.
The path is difficult and treacherous; the pools and mountains are impassable.
mY qin Avgx Juir mueI ivxu gux ikau Gir jwh ] (936-7, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
mai tan avgan jhur mu-ee vin gun ki-o ghar jaah.
My body is filled with faults; I am dying of grief. Without virtue, how can I enter my home?
guxIAw gux ly pRB imly ikau iqn imlau ipAwir ] (936-8, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
gunee-aa gun lay parabh milay ki-o tin mila-o pi-aar.
The virtuous take virtue, and meet God; how can I meet them with love?
iqn hI jYsI QI rhW jip jip irdY murwir ] (936-8, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
tin hee jaisee thee rahaaN jap jap ridai muraar.
If ony I could be like them, chanting and meditating within my heart on the Lord.
AvguxI BrpUr hY gux BI vsih nwil ] (936-9, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
avgunee bharpoor hai gun bhee vaseh naal.
He is overflowing with faults and demerits, but virtue dwells within him as well.
ivxu sqgur gux n jwpnI ijcru sbid n kry bIcwru ]44] (936-9, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
vin satgur gun na jaapnee jichar sabad na karay beechaar. ||44||
Without the True Guru, he does not see God's Virtues; he does not chant the Glorious Virtues of God. ||44||
lskrIAw Gr sMmly Awey vjhu ilKwie ] (936-10, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
laskaree-aa ghar sammlay aa-ay vajahu likhaa-ay.
God's soldiers take care of their homes; their pay is pre-ordained, before they come into the world.
kwr kmwvih isir DxI lwhw plY pwie ] (936-10, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
kaar kamaaveh sir Dhanee laahaa palai paa-ay.
They serve their Supreme Lord and Master, and obtain the profit.
lbu loBu buirAweIAw Cofy mnhu ivswir ] (936-11, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
lab lobh buri-aa-ee-aa chhoday manhu visaar.
They renounce greed, avarice and evil, and forget them from their minds.
giV dohI pwiqswh kI kdy n AwvY hwir ] (936-11, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
garh dohee paatisaah kee kaday na aavai haar.
In the fortress of the body, they announce the victory of their Supreme King; they are never ever vanquished.
cwkru khIAY Ksm kw sauhy auqr dyie ] (936-12, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
chaakar kahee-ai khasam kaa sa-uhay utar day-ay.
One who calls himself a servant of his Lord and Master, and yet speaks defiantly to Him,
vjhu gvwey Awpxw qKiq n bYsih syie ] (936-12, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
vajahu gavaa-ay aapnaa takhat na baiseh say-ay.
shall forfeit his pay, and not be seated upon the throne.
pRIqm hiQ vifAweIAw jY BwvY qY dyie ] (936-13, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
pareetam hath vadi-aa-ee-aa jai bhaavai tai day-ay.
Glorious greatness rests in the hands of my Beloved; He gives, according to the Pleasure of His Will.
Awip kry iksu AwKIAY Avru n koie kryie ]45] (936-13, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
aap karay kis aakhee-ai avar na ko-ay karay-i. ||45||
He Himself does everything; who else should we address? No one else does anything. ||45||
bIjau sUJY ko nhI bhY dulIcw pwie ] (936-14, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
beeja-o soojhai ko nahee bahai duleechaa paa-ay.
I cannot conceive of any other, who could be seated upon the royal cushions.
nrk invwrxu nrh nru swcau swcY nwie ] (936-14, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
narak nivaaran narah nar saacha-o saachai naa-ay.
The Supreme Man of men eradicates hell; He is True, and True is His Name.
vxu iqRxu FUFq iPir rhI mn mih krau bIcwru ] (936-14, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
van tarin dhoodhat fir rahee man meh kara-o beechaar.
I wandered around searching for Him in the forests and meadows; I contemplate Him within my mind.
lwl rqn bhu mwxkI siqgur hwiQ BMfwru ] (936-15, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
laal ratan baho maankee satgur haath bhandaar.
The treasures of myriads of pearls, jewels and emeralds are in the hands of the True Guru.
aUqmu hovw pRBu imlY iek min eykY Bwie ] (936-15, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
ootam hovaa parabh milai ik man aykai bhaa-ay.
Meeting with God, I am exalted and elevated; I love the One Lord single-mindedly.
nwnk pRIqm ris imly lwhw lY prQwie ] (936-16, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
naanak pareetam ras milay laahaa lai parthaa-ay.
O Nanak, one who lovingly meets with his Beloved, earns profit in the world hereafter.


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## hps62 (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

dear Brother Imran 

you are probably mixing up things.

Religion is about faith and science is about generating knowledge  to help our  species  and earth  to survive .

No religious text  book  discusses " Calculus , quantum theory ,theory of relativity , evolutionary theory etc etc.

As to why people practice  faith is different for different people it could be the compassion for Chrisatnity , catholicity for  hindus(these religions are probable still deeper and in their philosophy).

As for sikh it could mean  different for differnet sikhs .My own view are discusses under  topic " What sikhism means to me ? ie if I really understand it."].

So your question is probably ambugious and will never be answered by any religous  text in this  world. 
Any how good to  question !

With love

 hps62


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## drkhalsa (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Dear Spirtual fellas


Just for the reference of every body again 


* no of species that have classified yet is 1.75 million in total *


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## CaramelChocolate (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

I have noticed fundamental problem when looking at religion, followers of Western religions [Islam, Christianity, Judaism] seem to take things literally, whereas Eastern followers [Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism etc.] look at there texts with symbolism and deeper meaning and this is understandable if you look at most Hindu/Sikh/Jain writing. So if a Muslim wishes to study Sikhism he cannot do it in a Muslim frame of mind otherwise he will be LOST. For example, if Sikhism is not from God it is false and therefore all Sikhs are going to hell, but a Sikh may say God is beyond religion, man creates religion in order to attain God as it is obvious that God is there. Whereas, a Muslim will say God created Islam, the true and only religion for all and all else will go to hell.


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

I request all for a reference from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that gives the message 'There are eighty-four lakhs (8.4 millions) of species available on earth.'

I will be grateful.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 24, 2005)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear Imran Ji!
Thanks for your query.

Your query may help us all reaching a better understanding of Gurbani.

I am not sure if you know Gurmukhi. Knowing a language is anyway not a guarantee to posses the Truth. 

A language is the media among beings. It does not transfers the experiences. All spiritual and worldly experiences cannot be transferred through language by explaining.

There are many translations available of scriptures from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Gita, Bible and Koran.

We often do not realize that we try to understand the translator's mind when we read his translation of scriptures.

The same problem has arisen here.

You may be surprised to know that the word 'lakh chouraaseeh' (8.4 millions) occurs many times in Gurbani, but has never meant that there are only 8.4 millions species available on earth.

I am surprised to read the translations.

Our Gurus said that a Jeev (being) when misses the chance to meet God in this human body, goes through 8.4 millions of bodies made of earthly matter (maedhanee) to get the human birth again. This number does not decrease or rise.
Most translations give the impressions that there are 8.4 millions species found on earth. 

Our Gurus have clearly spoken about species.

"tis vich Dhartee thaap rakhee Dharam saal." 
In the midst of these, He established the earth as a home for Dharma.

"tis vich jee-a jugat kay rang."
In that are colors (varieties) of beings and their evolutions.

"tin kay naam anayk anant." SGGS page 7
Their names are uncounted and endless.

Dear Imran Ji!
You wrote "Because biologist believe there are as many as 100,000 million species can you please please explain what this means"

The number of species has always been changing, with the change of time, by scientists.

Truth never changes.

Our Gurus, after seeing universes, did not give a specific number to the variety of species.

Their humble quotation is rather "kaytee-aa tayree-aa kudratee kayvad tayree daat."
Many are your natures. Greats are you giving.

"kaytay tayray jee-a jant sifat karahi din raat." SGGS page 18
How many are your beings and species praising day and night.

I feel our Gurus are true in wonder after realizing God's infinity.

Can one ever get success to count the creations of God?

Can a molecule of our body ever come to know how many species of molecules our body consists of?

This is a different thing that we inform this molecule the truth when we get aware of it.

Love to all.


Balbir Singh


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## eshersingh (Sep 28, 2007)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,



Here is an interesting find by the scientists in Vietnam


 Hanoi, Sep 28 (DPA) Scientists have discovered 11 plant and animal species in tropical forests in central Vietnam and believe that more species remain unknown here, the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) said. 
The new species were a snake, five orchids, two butterflies and three other plants new to science and exclusive to the Annamites Mountain Range, the conservation group said.

 'These latest discoveries may be just the tip of the iceberg,' said Chris Dickinson, WWF's chief conservation scientist in the region known as Vietnam's Green Corridor, adding that several large mammal species were discovered in the same forests in the 1990s.

 The new snake species, which can reach 79 centimetres in length, has a yellow-white stripe sweeping along its head and red dots covering its body while three of the new orchids are leafless.

 Scientists said they believe the tropical forest in Vietnam is also home to many other unknown animal and plant species, especially small species.

 'So far, we have only known about 30 to 40 percent of the small species of animals and plants in tropical forests in Vietnam,' estimated Le Xuan Canh with the Institute of Ecology and Biological Resources of Vietnam.

 WWF also said that 10 other plant species found in the area are still under examination but appear to be new species.

 Recent surveys found 15 reptiles and amphibians and six bird species among the threatened species living in the Green Corridor, which stretches from the mountainous forests of the Annamites to one of the last remaining lowland wet evergreen forests.

 The corridor is also home to one of the world's most endangered primates, the white-cheeked crested gibbon, and is considered the best location in Vietnam to save the saola, a unique type of wild cattle discovered in 1992. 




So , One conclusion can be drawn from this is that Scientist are yet to find the total species that are living on this earth . They have not even started finding live on other planets as they are not able to go beyond our galaxy or I should say that go beyond ven our solar system.


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## amrit.saggu (Dec 8, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



imran_c said:


> hello,
> 
> Ok you asked me to give reference of the verse so here it is:
> Section 22 - Raag Raamkalee - Part 061
> ...





Imran,

Current estimates of the total number of species on Earth range from 5 to 30 million, of which, the 2005 Millennium Ecosystem Assessment notes approximately 2 million have been described.

The National Science Foundation’s “Tree of Life” project estimates that there could be anywhere from 5 million to 100 million species on the planet, but science has only identified about 2 million.

Where are you getting this number 125 million?? we have actually have only formally discovered 1.8 million species on earth so far. Please clarify if you have further details. Guru Granth Sahib ji says we transmigrate through 8.4 million life forms. It's true. and Yes, the Guru Granth Sahib is a divine revelation. It's not our place to take pride in that matter, it is a Guru to all beings who wish to read it's truths. If you choose not to believe, then that is a choice you rightfully have and nobody can say you are wrong. To each his own. God bless.


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

amrit.saggu ji

The direction your comments take above are appealing to me. I don't mean to get involved in the enumeration of species on the planet, in the water, or in the Universe. That is really not for me all significant. The part that impresses: Science cannot know everything, and scientists themselves will admit as much. The purpose of science is doubt not certitude, if we take the scientific method seriously and as it is intended to be understood. So trying to match scientific discoveries with Guru's revealed word in order to show Guru was correct, is daffy business. Likewise, using science to deny Guru's revealed word is also daffy business. That is my opinion. These are two ways of knowing, science and spirit. How can science be substituted for the wisdom of the Guru and still be science? How can spirituality be substituted for the insights of science and still be science? Akaal embraces, creates, and re-creates all of creation. How any activity of the mortal mind like science second-guess Him? Thanks


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## amrit.saggu (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> amrit.saggu ji
> 
> The direction your comments take above are appealing to me. I don't mean to get involved in the enumeration of species on the planet, in the water, or in the Universe. That is really not for me all significant. The part that impresses: Science cannot know everything, and scientists themselves will admit as much. The purpose of science is doubt not certitude, if we take the scientific method seriously and as it is intended to be understood. So trying to match scientific discoveries with Guru's revealed word in order to show Guru was correct, is daffy business. Likewise, using science to deny Guru's revealed word is also daffy business. That is my opinion. These are two ways of knowing, science and spirit. How can science be substituted for the wisdom of the Guru and still be science? How can spirituality be substituted for the insights of science and still be science? Akaal embraces, creates, and re-creates all of creation. How any activity of the mortal mind like science second-guess Him? Thanks




After starting to read the English translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji, my doubt in the Guru was cast out completely. There is no place for doubt in my heart any longer. Science is a very important aspect of my life, with it I have gained a great appreciation for the creator and his creation. As God is all pervading, his energies create, destroy, and manipulate the physical dimensions we are a part of. Nothing is outside of God- as Guru ji said- i am a fish and you are the ocean- i know nothing outside of you. You are the fisherman, you are the net that captures, and you are the fish.
Nothing is outside of the bounds of all pervading Waheguru. Even Science.

Newton discovered for us the calculations of gravity (not what causes it to work- that's way over our heads). But after learning about gravity, I felt a great sense of humility towards this amazing force which I've never truly appreciated before. This is a force that the Divine Universe uses to organize celestial masses like the sun and the galaxies in the universe. Gravity also ensures the gases we need to sustain life(oxygen, nitrogen etc.) stay within our atmosphere. It is so amazing; this force we often overlook and simply categorize as "science". --Science is only an attempt to discover some aspects of the Universes creation & energies. The reason I take such interest in science is because it puts me in a state of utter humility towards the creator and his magnificent creation. I am sorry if my words were offensive in anyway.

Warm Regards
Amrit


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## spnadmin (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*


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## amrit.saggu (Dec 9, 2009)

I appreciate your positive response.
truly,
Amrit


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## Randip Singh (Dec 10, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



imran_c said:


> so this means that the granth isnt the direct words of God??


 

and the Koran is?

Let me get this right. An illiterate man, who cannot read or write produces the direct word of God? Is that what you are saying?


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## amrit.saggu (Dec 10, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Fellow Sikhs,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it is not our place to call Mohammed illiterate- it maybe true but also offensive to some if stated in the wrong context as stated above. We may not agree with Islam, but as Sikhs we should not speak against another religion unless of course it is destructive. In this case, if you believe it is destructive, then your arguments should have a stronger foundation. I disagree with many aspects of Islam, but the fact that Mohammed was illiterate does not make a difference.  An illiterate man can have wisdom far beyond a literate one. Literacy has nothing to do with the word of God. The Divine Universe has the ability to send the word through an inanimate object if it so pleases him. Please take no offense to what I say, my intentions are to provoke progressive thinking.

Warm Regards
Amrit


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## max314 (Dec 30, 2009)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*

Gurbani is not a scientific text.

It is a poetic one.  A musical one.

The only 'fact' contained in _gürbäni_ is "_ék onkär_".  The rest of the text is about articulating this inarticulable concept in the form of musically-assisted poetic verse and, in doing so, it very often calls upon existing images of God - which are often Hindu or Islamic in nature.  After all, you don't use metaphors of snow and ice to describe God to a man who has lived his entire life in the desert.  The same principle applies here.

Most religions repeat this same mistake.  They're so afraid of reading between the lines that they interpret poetry as facts.  Therein lies the path to madness and filling in fairytale interpretations in a desperate bid to make it seem as though the text makes sense on a factual level.

You wouldn't take Keats' pastoral description of a Greek urn to mean there were actually people living inside the urn, would you?  Of course not.  Because that would be stupid.


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## amrit.saggu (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



max314 said:


> Gurbani is not a scientific text.
> 
> It is a poetic one.  A musical one.
> 
> ...




Siblings of destiny,

gurbani speaks divine truth. It is all fact. Ek Onkar is the first fact, and realities are expanded upon throughout Guru Granth sahib Ji. A true, selfless and compassionate way of life is given to us. Guru Granth sahib Ji is entirely factual; let's not get this confused with the metaphors and personifications the gurus and poets used to help the reader understand their perspectives. Science  is a conscious effort to seek the truth also, so we are bound to find some overlap. Let us be open minded always, we are Learners after all 

amrit


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## max314 (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



imran_c said:


> so the granth aint a devine and a direct word of god?



The rigid, one dimensional nature of your query is symptomatic of your erroneous way of thinking.

Also, your personal qualification for a 'valid' spiritual text (i.e. that God has to come down and reveal things directly, like a man talking to another man) means that you are not concerning yourself with the right things.

You are interested in religion as a football team (i.e. "my religion is right, your religion is wrong").  You are not interested in religion as a path to enlightened living.

Your question is fundamentally flawed.

Therefore, yes - I will not answer your question.  Because it's a stupid question.

No offence.


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## max314 (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: 8.4 million speices ??*



amrit.saggu said:


> Siblings of destiny,
> 
> gurbani speaks divine truth. It is all fact. Ek Onkar is the first fact, and realities are expanded upon throughout Guru Granth sahib Ji. A true, selfless and compassionate way of life is given to us. Guru Granth sahib Ji is entirely factual; let's not get this confused with the metaphors and personifications the gurus and poets used to help the reader understand their perspectives. Science  is a conscious effort to seek the truth also, so we are bound to find some overlap. Let us be open minded always, we are Learners after all
> 
> amrit



Yes, gurbani is all true.

But it's simply a re-iteration of the _same_ truth.  Indeed, in many ways, it's the _only_ truth that matters.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jan 9, 2010)

Dear Imran,

IMHO AGGS is not a word of God but a poetical expression of the Guru about his spiritual experience in a common man's language at that time about his spiritual knowledge about God.
Secondaly 8.4 million number is a metaphoric reference to many and different forms of life on earth and in water. It definitly does not mean as to the exact mathematical number.
Of course we have the right to agree to disagree.

Respectfully Submited,

Virinder


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## jasbirkaleka (Jan 10, 2010)

But no Sikh Guru ever claimed that his was the 'thurr ki bani', as some prophets like Moses and Mohamand claimed.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jan 10, 2010)

SWAYYA by 10th Guru in Ram Avtar;

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤਿ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਿਯੋ ॥
_Paa-en Gahay Jab Te Tumre Tab Te Kou Aankh Tare Nahi Aaneo, Ram Raheem Puran Quran Anek Kahain Mat Ek Na Maaneo._<?"urn:fficeffice" />

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions;

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥
_Simnrat Sastar Bayd Sabai Boh Bhayd Khai Han Ek Na Janeo, Siri Aspaan Kirpa Tumri Kar Mai Na Kaheo Sabh Toeh Bakhaneo._

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe several mysteries of yours, but I do not agree with any of them. O sword-wielder God! This all has been described by Thy Grace, what power can I have to say all this?.863.

Please conclude your self but I do agree with JasbirKaleka Ji's above statement.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Waheguru 1 creator (Jan 2, 2014)

:redturban: 
WJKK WJKF

Imran can you please give the source to which the estimate was 100,000 million?

As the most recent estimates state 8.7 million give or take 1.3 million according to reliable sources like the BBC, the guardian and the NY times. I have linked the sources below. Maybe it was the statement "the vast majority have not been identified" that confused you, they mean that they estimate 8.7 million species but they have not all been databased, given names etc. only about 1.9 million have been "identified" but 8.4 million is the predicted figure.

Sources:
BBC:   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14616161
Guardian:   http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/aug/23/species-earth-estimate-scientists
NY times:     http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/science/30species.html
There are many others but i picked 3 reliable websites as i didnt want to flood you with sources.

WJKK WJKF

And Happy new year!!!


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2014)

Waheguru 1 creator ji

As has already been stated: The number 8.4 million should not be taken literally. Its mention in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is an allusion or reference to a Vedic belief that there are 8.4 million 'life-forms' (not 'species' to be exact). It did not refer to a head count of species on earth or in the universe. Rather it referred to forms of life through which the individual soul would reincarnate. Mistranslation led to the word "species" going viral in other translations and discussions.

Wondering about a differential of  100,000 million or 1.9 million give or take is  a reaction to something that was misunderstood to begin with. The Sikh Gurus would first state the number as the commonly held assumption; and then they would contradict the beliefs that were based on this assumption. So, they were using this number as a poetic ploy for digging further into the matter of spiritual rebirth. They applied this poetic ploy with a number of other Vedic concepts.

So the estimation of species on earth is best left to science, which seems to be your preference also.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 2, 2014)

spnadmin said:


> Waheguru 1 creator ji
> 
> As has already been stated: The number 8.4 million should not be taken literally. Its mention in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is an allusion or reference to a Vedic belief that there are 8.4 million 'life-forms' (not 'species' to be exact). It did not refer to a head count of species on earth or in the universe. Rather it referred to forms of life through which the individual soul would reincarnate. Mistranslation led to the word "species" going viral in other translations and discussions.
> 
> ...



The METHODOLOGY of all the contributors to the SGGS..is...
1. Give the PREVAILING belief/thought/ritual/whatever
2.  Elaborate on 1. to make it clear
3. GIVE the contributor's OWN take on the 1
4  Make the Contributor's take clear and transparent beyond dispute and    
    RAHAO..PAUSE this ...to make sure it SINKS IN.
5  Occasionally add a SECOND RAHAO...
6.  LINK shabds, across pages, make annotations, comments on shbads and pages upon pages are linked by a central theme developed over these pages...so even a single page read on its own may lead the reader astray if he makes the mistake of taking that page on its own..

Example..Guru nanak Ji writes.."The Koran says....the Vedas say...and the misled reader beleives that Guru ji is ENDORSING the Koran the Vedas..the Puranas...BUT IF the reader were to WAIT till teh RAHAO TUKS or the  CONCLUDING NANAK LINE..he will realise what the GURU actually says and what the GURMATT STAND on that subject is... The Guru says..COCONUT...People see a COCONUT..and STOP there..seeing its Green/Brown Colour..and tough outer shell..what the GURU wants for us to go INSIDE..break open the coconut..remove the shell...break the hard shell....and some will drink the water..others will eat the flesh..yet others will grind the inside and obtain the OIL...


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2014)

Gyani ji

You have laid the methodology of the Shabads out so clearly, so well. I am left wondering why some get to the _coconut_ and stop, and others go for the _oil._ Puzzles me greatly.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 3, 2014)

spnadmin said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> You have laid the methodology of the Shabads out so clearly, so well. I am left wondering why some get to the _coconut_ and stop, and others go for the _oil._ Puzzles me greatly.



people value the tangible


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## Parma (Jan 4, 2014)

Imran I understand that you may want to make another religion look misguided to make other religions seem more sensible and valid, I call it misguided guidance. How can making something look bad, make you or your faith or guidance, look any good? Especially if your trying to elevate yourself up onto a higher Plateau of ethics or religion or beliefs or whatever and especially if the knowledge that your trying to disrepute is itself neither imposing or oppressive, or in any way trying to misguide or bring disrepute onto you? You may feel that the value is misguiding, but the Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses many metaphors and styles to explain the values of God as God cannot be defined. The quality of the value it is trying to express is the value of love of god and the individual, humanity but used with differences in explanation to get that message across that's why you have to read the entire Guru Granth Sahib Ji to try to understand it reading parts is like reading a stories end part and thinking you know the depths and literature of an entire book. Is this the value of whatever you may follow? Shows the belief system you follow, and the ethics and morals by which you stand to follow. You have to understand Guru Nanak talked to many people in his time, scientific people of his era, people of other faiths and so on. The Guru's used terms in the Guru Granth Sahib ji to explain to the world the concept of god, with concepts used and heard, they did not create a totally new language, I guess we did get Gurmukhi to a degree from them to try and make an answer to your reasonings on some level but it was never totally ununderstandable if god created a whole new language that no one else could understand, if that happened then by your reasoning I guess you could call that a revelation of god, but who would listen to a person talking complete utter "gibberish"= ("Imran",lol) you would need some type of coding or something to make the common man understand something, otherwise what's the point in the whole process of it all who would understand something in a language no one else understands so they used terms and words they have heard, its the only thing a sane person can comprehend with. On how a message could make sense to the world as it was, they use the word Allah, not because they where Muslims but to explain the thoughts to different people what they thought Allah was, they use the word ram not because they were Hindu's but to tell people in there terms what god was and so on and so forth. Different ways to explain the message of god as there is only one god but people have divided the value they made the message value equal to all people, they travelled to people from all walks of life and all types of people with all types of understanding came to them. They have tried to explain the message of something so complex into something understandable, however it came however inspired they did the deed god requested Guru Nanak to do. I am a Sikh and I believe we are all learning even you Imran, so sorry for my little joke!


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