# Meat - Is It Against Sikhi?



## S|kH (Jul 20, 2004)

Time to a set up a thread about the highly controversial "Meat" topic.

Please discuss.


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## Arvind (Jul 20, 2004)

In this context, What is meat? I mean definition!


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## S|kH (Jul 20, 2004)

*My Views*

Is Meat Against Sikhi?


Although, I have no problems with vegetarians or meat-eaters, I have come to the conclusion that the ritual of eating meat / or refraining from meat is no way connected to spirituality. 

Guru Nanak stated it, that the fools argue over meat. 
Guru Gobind hunted meat, whether he ate it or not is up to debate, but yes, he did kill it, yes he did seek it out, yes he did hunt it. 

Some people are happy that they can refrain from eating meat, and feel as if its more religious, something that makes them "better" 

This is nonsense. If you choose not to eat meat, so be it, all the best of luck to you, but dont eat meat because you think harming animals is wrong. Do not do it because you think you will reach another level of spirituality. 

If you choose to eat meat, so be it, dont eat it because you think the Sikhs from back in the day did it, and its tradition that must be followed and if you follow them step by step, you will be higher spiritually. 

All nonsense, the Guru made no distinct position on meat at all.

Some may argue from the above that "Kesh" can be seen the same way, that some people feel more spiritual keeping kesh then others, and its a thing that is needed. Let me remind you, Kesh is sacred to the Khalsa, and the Guru took a firm position on what the Khalsa should be and what it meant. Therefore, that is easily refuted. 

Anyways, please continue to discuss, and if you have solid proof, provide it.
And please, do not leave responses like "AKJ or such and such Jatha told us not to" or "Bhindranwale condemned meat" and etc.

Logic, and Reason and Gurbani quotes please


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## S|kH (Jul 20, 2004)

ThinkingOne said:
			
		

> In this context, What is meat? I mean definition!




Hmm, what is meat..

I dont know :x

What do you think it is?


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## Arvind (Jul 20, 2004)

That was exactly my reason of asking this question. 

I saw at www.dictionary.com and the meanings matching your query were as follows:
1. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry. 
2. The edible part, as of a piece of fruit or a nut. 

Extend the awareness, omnipresence, feelings into each and every particle in this universe, that way you will find that we ALL end up killing some or other one for our survival. 

If we limit the meaning of meat to first definition only, that is due to our sensitivity level. Heard of monks, who cover their mouth, so that jeev in air dont get killed while speaking!!! Just different levels of perception and sensitivity.

Personally, anything offered on my plate to eat, I should eat.


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## Amarpal (Jul 21, 2004)

Dear members,

Whenever we eat we terminate some form of life either in plant kingdom or in animal kingdom. One must eat which your conscience permits and which agree with you body constitution. Taking from nature more than what one needs (over eating) or wasting food is a sin because then one is damaging the nature more then what one needs to live a healthy life.

What to eat or not to eat is not a matter to be decided by religion. I agree with the view that it has nothing to do with spirituality.

Sikhs can eat meat if they want.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal


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## Arvind (Jul 21, 2004)

'Sikhs can eat meat if they want.' - I wont say that with an authority. 

Considering - you are what you eat! Perhaps, it is observed that people intaking meat from animal kingdom are more prone to more heart diseases, agression etc. On the other side, people intaking from plant kingdom exhibit calm and quiet outlook. I may be wrong though. I do agree about things going wrong when any of these things take place i.e. over-eating, wasting food, killing just for pleasure!


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## truth_seeker (Jul 21, 2004)

Animals have emotions and often they are scared during their last minutes, which means that you consume their stress hormones too.
I see that it is impossible to not live off other live, but I try to live off live causing the least amount of pain and suffering


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## Amarpal (Jul 22, 2004)

Dear Members,I hold the opinion that there is nothing wrong in eating what is edible and in accepted by your constitution of the body.

No body in this world is perfect vegetarian. The first nurishment which every one gets after birth, in strict sense of the term, is non-vegetarian - the mother's milk. The curds that people eat have live becteria multiplying in it. Honey too is non-vegetarian and is snatched from poor helpless bees, as cows milk is snatched from the calf, who are the rightful owner of it. i do not know if the vegetarians are not sinners.

When I have the option, I too take vegetarian food, this is because the life has not yet manifested in it. For me egg and grain both are same, they have suspended life in it and has manifested yet. when I do not have the option I have no hesitation in eating meat.

I think some religions have made life difficult for its followers by going too much in details to tell what should be done and what is not to be done, when to eat and what to eat, with which hand to eat etc, etc - they had made their religion mechanical. All these thing are not necessary. These selections are the consequence of spirituality and enlightenment, they are not the causes of it.

We must put efforts to elevate ourselves spiritually, all other things will follow on their own.

With Love and Respect for all

Amarpal.


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## plamba (Jul 24, 2004)

Folks,

In this context, I'd like to offer the following essay as food for thought:

Kala Afghana on Non-Vegetarianism
By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA
http://sikhtimes.com/books_090803a.html

Thanks,

Puneet


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## plamba (Jul 24, 2004)

ThinkingOne said:
			
		

> ...people intaking from plant kingdom exhibit calm and quiet outlook. I may be wrong though.



I'd like to offer Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale as a counter-example. He was a strict vegetarian but a violent man.

For a detailed discussion on why I think Bhindranwale was a violent man, please see the following essay:

Top Five Bhindranwale Myths
By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA
http://sikhtimes.com/bios_060604a.html


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2004)

(1289-11)
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

pahilaaN maasahu nimmi-aa maasai andar vaas.
First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh.

jee-o paa-ay maas muhi mili-aa had chamm tan maas.
When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh.

maasahu baahar kadhi-aa mammaa maas giraas.
He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast.

muhu maasai kaa jeebh maasai kee maasai andar saas.
His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh.

vadaa ho-aa vee-aahi-aa ghar lai aa-i-aa maas.
He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home.

maasahu hee maas oopjai maasahu sabho saak.
Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh.

satgur mili-ai hukam bujhee-ai taaN ko aavai raas.
When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Hukam of the IK ONG KAAR he comes to be reformed.

aap chhutay nah chhootee-ai naanak bachan binaas. ||1||
Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O Nanak, through empty words, one is ruined. ||1||

(1289-15)
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.



*Page 1290 

*istaree purkhai jaaN nis maylaa othai manDh kamaahee.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

baahar kaa maas mandaa su-aamee ghar kaa maas changayraa.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

jee-a jant sabh maasahu ho-ay jee-ay la-i-aa vaasayraa.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

abhakh bhakheh bhakh taj chhodeh anDh guroo jin kayraa.
They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

jay o-ay diseh narak jaaNday taaN unH kaa daan na lainaa.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

dayNdaa narak surag laiday daykhhu ayhu Dhinyaanaa.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

aap na boojhai lok bujhaa-ay paaNday kharaa si-aanaa.
You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

to-i-ahu ann kamaad kapaahaaN to-i-ahu taribhavan gannaa.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

to-aa aakhai ha-o baho biDh hachhaa toai bahut bikaaraa.
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

aytay ras chhod hovai sani-aasee naanak kahai vichaaraa. ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||






Need we say more?????

Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 25, 2004)

*I was hoping to start this discussion myself soon, but anyway, here are my two cents....

I would like to share two quotes from Guruji:*

*Page 723*
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish. 
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause|| 

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the *forbidden* carcasses of meat.

*Page 1289*
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. 


In my opinion, avoiding meat is a preferred diet, however, Guruji teaches that it is much more important to worry about spiritual progress than just a diet. So I feel that if one feels confident in his spiritual practice, then he should begin to think about avoiding things such as meat.
By the way, is it true that amritdharis have to avoid meat [and sex but ONLY for procreation]?

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2004)

For our Gurus, meat eating is too trival a thing to have an issue about.


Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 25, 2004)

VaheguruSeekr said:
			
		

> For our Gurus, meat eating is too trival a thing to have an issue about.


Well compared to what was going on at the time, I guess meat wasn't important...

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## Arvind (Jul 26, 2004)

As already mentioned by Tejwant ji:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

Above is a truth, which incidentally came to me, in these discussions only.

John, I havent come across any amritdhari sikh yet, who eats meat (from animal kingdom), but Also I dont recall Punj Pyaras telling about not to do this in the Amrit ceremony. About sex, I guess (in reality) it is upto individual restraint, although what u mentioned is correct.

Best Regards.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 26, 2004)

Oh yeah, I was told that you HAVE to be a vegetarian to read SGGS. 

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2004)

What Guru Nanak Dev Ji has mentioned in the above GURBANI VERSES is :-


Pure Vegetarians do not even drink water.


Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## Arvind (Jul 26, 2004)

Shall I add on, PURE vegetarians may not be even talking or breathing!!! I am not joking. Why I said so, as they might be thinking that living orgnisms in air should not get killed! Thats certainly extreme of things, but monks cover their mouth going upto that level!  For a normal human living, being pure vegetarian is just impossible. We end up killing some or other thing for consumption from different kingdoms.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2004)

ThinkingOne ji,

It was just tongue in cheek comment..

Peace & Love

Tejwant


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## S|kH (Aug 2, 2004)

The guy who posted the "violent Bhindranwale link"
can you please fix the link, its not working properly.

I'd like to give it a read, thanks.


And also, as I said before :

Meat does not have much to do with religion or higher spirituality. I think that was Guru Nanaks aim. Hence, the reason we dont eat halal meat is because its meat that has been performed under religious rites. 

If you do not choose to eat meat, there are plenty of noteful reasons, such as you can be scared of increase in diseases, or you do not wish to "torture and kill an animal."
These are all valid reasons, but have nothing to do with religoin. People will attempt to use those reasons as back up and claim that meat is against religion. 

Nor does religion say that eating meat is ok or should be allowed. It is a personal choice, that will not make you higher in spirituality.


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## Admin (Aug 5, 2004)

By our Member, Vijaydeep Singh Ji, i have not read fully but its seems to be a deep post, i would love some reviews from members.



> Ek Oankar WahiGuru Ji Ki Fateh
> Dear Brethren since das did go in for the study of Huqumnama of Sixth master which is told to be forbidding Sikhs to eat meat, Vars of Bhai gurdas Ji and life of Sixth master inGuru Bilas Patshahi Chhevin(in Granth Suraj Prakash by Giani Gian singh and Tika (Expalanation by Sodi Teja Singh) so Das took some time to reply.
> 
> Few words to be expalined like Hukumnama ie Letter(Nama) of order(Huqum) sent to A particular sangat at the the particular time. Hukum is order given in words to sangat or a section of Sikhs. Rahit nama is Letter of Rahit(prohibitions).
> ...


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## S|kH (Aug 6, 2004)

Interesting read.

Although the typing is sometimes hard to decipher lol
and in the beginning it takes quotes from Dasam Granth, which the source is debatable. But it does a relatively nice explanation of these supposed myths that Sikhs should not eat meat. 

I'd just like to fix this one thing :
Halal- Killing of animal by Muslim way ie draining out its blood till it dies of anemia. Panth is only against the killing of animal by brutality but concept of Halal or Kosher(“animal killed by jew rites) are against the Gurmat.

Halal is not draining out the blood, Halal is one cut and the animal is dead, it is a relatively very quick method of killing, the animal dies in an instant. Sometimes this is faster than shooting the animal with a gun. I have spoken to muslim scholars about this, because I was under the assumption Sikhs do not eat Halal because the method of killing the animal is long and causes torture.

It is incorrect, Halal meat is meat that is pointed towards mecca and killed in an instand under God's name. Sikhs were forbidden to eat this meat because we do not kill animals in God's name, whether it be Allah, Waheguru or God. We do not acknowledge such sacrifices.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 14, 2004)

*AKAL TAKHAT doesnt ban meat ( only halaal sacrifical meat )*

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

The SIKH REHAT MARYADA approved by the AKAL TAKHAT only lists HALLAL (sacrificial) Meat as BANNED.

The reason why Hallal (sacrificial) meat is Banned is because such meat is SACRIFICED to a Devi/Devta/Mandir ( as in Hindu Goat sacrifice etc at Kali Mata mandirs). It has been an ancient practise to OFFER BLOOD SACRIFICE... the Blood of the Victim is DRAINED OFF and offered to the diety...this custom is also observed in Hallal sacrifice whereby the Throat is cut and the blood allowed to drain off by the pumping heart. The KHALSA being the Khalsa Of Waheguru declines to eat "such second hand meat" (meat that has already been offered to someone else !!).

The meat issue is a NON-ISSUE brought into Sikhism by the sant/derawallahs who lean too much towards Brahminism. If we read Sidh Ghost, the Bani that contains the dialogue of Guru nanak and the Sidhs/Rishis/Sants?sadhs of Hinduism/Yog Matt etc...there is One important question in which the Head Yogi tells Nanak that their diet consists of Roots/berries etc.
Guru nanak answers EACH adn EVERY question of the Yogis...BUT strangely enough just IGNORES completley this DIET part ( kand mool - roots/berries). This is proof enough that this diet was a NON-ISSUE as far as Guru Ji is concerned.  IF Vegetarian diet was that IMPORTANT, surely GURU JI would have confirmed it here..but no Guru Ji just ignored it completley.

2. Vegetarian proponents are always quoting Bhagat kabir's shabads such as Kio Murgee mareh etc etc as being Anti-Meat.  The simple answer to this line of thought is that whatever Bhagat kabir is writing is addressed to the MUSLIMS....in this particular shabad bhagat ji asks the Qazi: You say God is in everything....then WHY do YOU KILL the MURGII as "SACRIFICE" . rememeber the Sacrifice aspect in Islam is meant to PLEASE ALLAH. Bhagat is asking how can God be pleased to see his own creation being killed to "please him"  The shabad is NOT about killing murgees for FOOD !!

Guru Ji is very clear that taking what is not your own is BAD....as bad as pork to a muslim and beef to a hindu....Haak Pariyah Nanaka us soor us gai !!! How could anyone intrpret this line as saying guru ji is agaisnt eating pork and beef...yet i constantly hear this as well.

The truth is that the AKAL TAKHAT as the Highest seat of Miri-Piri in Sikhism sanctions MEAT that is not hallal 9sacrificial). If you feel like eating it - go ahead and if you dont - that is also your perogrotive.  That is why the PANJ PIYARE DONT tell you meat is banned...because it ISNT.  Meat is banned only in the "fringe maryadas" followed by various splinter groups such as AKJ, Dam dami taksaal , nanaksari babas, and MOST FERAWALLAH SADHS.

Waheguru will judge you according to what is in Your MANN - not what is in your stomach.  Meat eaters can be calm, peaceful, religious....and vegetarians can be rapists, violent, atheists, murderers...DIET has nothing to do with it.

 Jarnail Singh


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## Amarpal (Aug 16, 2004)

Dear members,

Eating meat is not against Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Jee too had eaten meat. This is narrated in the book 'History of Sikhs by Gopal Singh.

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 16, 2004)

Amarpal Ji, I also 'heard' that Guru Nanak did eat Meat... Could you please put some more light on this incidence and its autenticity.

Regards


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## Amarpal (Aug 16, 2004)

Dear Member (sikhphilosophy)

Yes, tomorrow I will give the detaied reference and some details of the incident.

Amarpal


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## Arvind (Aug 16, 2004)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
			
		

> Waheguru will judge you according to what is in Your MANN - not what is in your stomach. Meat eaters can be calm, peaceful, religious....and vegetarians can be rapists, violent, atheists, murderers...DIET has nothing to do with it.


Gyani ji, 

Above are just possibilities. They say - You are what you eat. Diet certainly has got lot of things to do with thinking pattern.

By above statement, I am not arguing about the focus topic, whether to eat meat or not.

Regards.


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## Amarpal (Aug 17, 2004)

Dear Member (sikhphilosophy Jee),

I am here giving details on Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee teachings to us on consuming meat.

This is from the book 'History of Sikh People' by Dr Gopal Singh, which I had purchased at a subsidised rate from the committe's out let at Gurdwara Bangla Sahib, New Delhi.

The incident is on page 74 and 75 of this book.

It all happend in Kurukshetra. 

A follower of Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee offered him deer-meat. Guru Sahib allowed him to roast it for his meals. Local people objected to it. Guru Sahib' reply as mentioned in the book follows.

" Only they who have never seen flesh are exercised at its sight, but why a man who's conceived in flesh, and is himself nothing but flesh and bones; who is fed on bothre's breast, who is with the tongue of flesh, who marries flesh, who produces flesh and breaths in flesh. Is there a man or woman who deals not in flesh"

The locals still opposed and Guru Sahib said:

"Do we not take water from which springs all life? It gives life to man,as to the animal and to vegetation. Shall we then shun water because it produces life? And don't the plants have life? They breathe, they love, they live and they die. And what is one to say of those who do not eat animal flesh but devour men and suck their blood?"

Guru Sahib further told them:

"O men. I do not eat for the relish of the palate, but take what ever is offered to me in good faith by one who has earned with the sweat of his brow. It will be ungodly for me to refuse to eat what comes to me in God's will".

This what I has referred to in my last posting on this thread.

With love and respect for all

Amarpal


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## Neutral Singh (Aug 17, 2004)

yeah thanks sir,


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## Kandola (Aug 21, 2004)

meat is normally eaten just for its taste.

is that what the gurus said? kill things for taste?

no!

you can eat meat, as a last resort. just like bandha singh bahdur. he only ate horses, because he was surrounded. sikhi was in his hands. 

now, if we eat plants, why not meat?

simple, its a last resort. plants give us what we need, proteins and other stuff. its what simpletons eat. because its a last resort. but we dont have it for taste now do we? we have it because it keeps us going.

also the zafarnama says not to eat meat. 

saying that, gyani sant singh maskeen says you can eat meat, its up to you. he abides by the akal takhat maryada.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 3, 2004)

one of the writers above said Halla meat is killed in an "instant".

This is not the way it is.. The Muslim way of killing an animal is NOT INSTANT. The animal is pinned down, then a sharp knife is drawn across its throat slowly as Kalma are read and its Carotid arteries are cut open for the blood to drain out.  Then the Head is slowly severed in a saw like motion...the naimal suffers immensely all the time before its heart stops due to lack of blood and oxygen as its trachea is also cut.

The JHATKA way of killing with ONE STROKE is truly instant.

If you want a visual of hallal.....look at one of those famous Head Cutting videos from Iraq. Those are the way hallal is done.

jarnail singh


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## Arvind (Oct 4, 2004)

On lot of forums, I read discussions about 'Whether Meat or Not', 'Whether Halaal or Jhatka' etc.

Amarpal ji has summed up the information, which appeals to me very much i.e.

"O men. I do not eat for the relish of the palate, but take what ever is offered to me in good faith by one who has earned with the sweat of his brow. It will be ungodly for me to refuse to eat what comes to me in God's will".

Killing is killing, whether from any kingdom. Most of the Eating is for taste sake only. No one is living in a jungle now. People have lot of options with them. If one lives in a jungle, got no options, then go for whatever you want. But sitting at home with all kind of options open, then wondering about halaal or jhatka etc, doesnt seem to make sense to me.

With no offence to anyone please.

Regards.


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## Singhstah (Dec 14, 2004)

taken from  http://tapoban.org/meat.htm 

Arguments Against Meat


In hukumnamas collected by Dr. Ganda Singh jee and published in his book "hukumnamas" each one of Satguru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas state "guru guru japna janam savar sangat dee kamnaa guru pooree karraygaa. Sangatee da ruzgaar hog, ik daasee rahinaa. Maas muchee day naray nahee avanaa." Please examine the last line. Clearly it says not to even go near meat or fish. This can't be just a hoax because all hukumnamas collected issued from Satguru jee bear this order.

Bhai Gurdas jee, whose banee was called the key to SGGS by Satguru Arjun dev jee says:

Sheeh pajooti Bakkari, maradi hoie harh harh hassi, Ak Dhatura khadian kuh kuh khal ukhal vinassi, Maas Khan gal wad ke, haal tinada kaun hovassi. (Vaar 25-7)

Means the goat says, "I was eating Ak and Dhatura plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?

At some other place, Bhai Sahib talks about goat being cut by butcher to be eaten : 

"kuhe Kassai Bakkari, lai loon seekh mass proyia" Hass hass bole kuhidi, khade ak haal eh hoyia, Maas khan gal churi de, haal tinada kaun aloyia" (Vaar 37-21) 

Means: Goat is being killed, cut into pieces and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating Ak plant (weed found in India's desert fields). In last line goat puts a question, what will be the fate of those in the court of god who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?

Bhai Gurdas Ji in Vaar 31 gives strong warning against eating meat. He said, due to some good doings in previous births, Pootna (a witch who tried to poison Krishna Ji) was forgiven. But don't take it as that act of poisoning others is acceptable. And due to some pious acts in previous births and grace of Lord, Sadhana the butcher was forgiven (there is mention about him in Gurubani too, later on he became bhagat). But it should not be interpreted as, that killing animals and eating their meat (word "Bhanga" here) is acceptable. Please read the following lines of Bhai Sahib Ji: 
"Jekar udhari pootna, Wihu pialan kam na changa, Je Kassai udharia, jeean ghai na khaiye Bhanga" (Vaar 31-5)

(Thanks to www.panthkhalsa.org for these quotes).

In SGGS banee which none of us can deny, there are also lots of tuks that say it is important not to eat meat. "Kabeer, jee jo maraahi jor kar, kahitay hai jo halal. Daftar daee jab kaid hai, hoigaa koun havaal" Meaning, those that used force and kill and call it halal, after going to the court of god, what will be their state? Here it may be argued that this tuk relates to halal, but think about it. Isn't force used in killing any animal for meat? Banee says "Parthai saakhee mahaa purakh bolday, saanjhee sagal jhaanai" meaning, what mahaapurakhs say applies to all, not just who they are specifically talking too. Here this line is addressed to Muslims, but it also applies too all who eat meat. . "Kabeer joree keeay julm hai, khaitaa naao halaal. Daftar laykhaa mangeeay tab hoigo koun havaal". Also, "Kabeer, jor keeaa so jolm hai, lay jabaab khudai. Daftar lykhaa neeksai mar muhai mohai khaii” meaning it is evil to use force and kill, god will certainly take you to task for it. When you must present your deeds in the court of god, you will face blows to the face. And "kabeer, bhaang maachulee suraapaan, jo jo praanee khai, teerath barat naym keeayai sabhai rasaatal jai” here Kabeer jee clearly states eating meat, fish and liqour is wrong and religion is not possible while eating these. "Bayd katayb kaho mat jhootay, jhoota jo na bichaarai. jo sabh mai eayk khudai kahit ho, to kio murgee maarai." meaning, the Semitic and Hindu scriptures aren't false, false is he who does not reflect on them. If they say that there is god in all, then why do you kill a chicken? Finally, Bhagat Kabeer jee says "Kabeer, khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa maih amrit loan. Hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kutaavai koun” meaning it is good to eat kicharee (mixture of rice and pulses), that has been tastefully prepared with salt. Who should risk having their throat cut (in the after life) just for a meal of meat and bread?

Mercy is of utmost importance in gurmat "daya jaanai jee kee kich pun daan karai" from aasaa dee vaar tells us to have mercy on all living things. Guru jee also tells us "dookh naa dayee kisai jee, pat sio ghar jaavo" give pain to no living thing. go home with honour. Athsath teerath sagal punn jeey dayaa parwaan: Going to the 78 places of pilgrimage, of greater merit and acceptance is having mercy upon living things.

I could give hundreds of tuks on the importance of mercy in gurmat. There is no mercy in killing an animal if there are hundreds of other things we can eat. Plants feel no pain, they don't move or squirm when we harvest them. I know a screaming goat can feel the pain when I kill it. Plants have no nervous system. Plants are a life form that can't feel pain. Animals are not as such. Many brothers/sisters may say that Maas Maas kar moorakh jhagray shabad makes meat ok. No. This shabad tells the sanyaasees that vegetarianism is not a religion. It will not bring muktee. It criticises those who wish to call vegetarianism the greatest religion. I could translate this shabad and show this, but I'll leave it for now. If someone wants though, I would be happy to translate all shabads that meat eaters want to use for support and show that they don't even begin to support meat. I hope I haven’t hurt anyone's feelings and just wish everyone would be brave to find the truth and then accept it.


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## GushK (Dec 14, 2004)

Quick thing, not as elaborate as everyone else's posts.

Being vegetarian myself, I do have a certain bias in this argument but there seem to be many people who argue for being able to eat meat and quote gurbani etc. It seems to me that it's very easy to argue you're point when the meat you wish to eat is available pre-packaged, blood drained, skinned, plucked and ready to cook.

I wonder how the meat eaters choices would be if they had to actually do the killing themselves. I wonder how many people would be able to deliver that killing stroke and take a life to satifiy their hunger when many other options present themselves....

Ask youself.....would you?  could you?


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## Prabjyot Kaur (Dec 14, 2004)

GushK said:
			
		

> Quick thing, not as elaborate as everyone else's posts.
> 
> Being vegetarian myself, I do have a certain bias in this argument but there seem to be many people who argue for being able to eat meat and quote gurbani etc. It seems to me that it's very easy to argue you're point when the meat you wish to eat is available pre-packaged, blood drained, skinned, plucked and ready to cook.
> 
> ...



Ditto. I am Vegetarian myself & was not told to do so by Panj Piyare. Living with the vegetarian family; I made this choice for myself long time ago.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 14, 2004)

> Ditto. I am Vegetarian myself & was not told to do so by Panj Piyare. Living with the vegetarian family; I made this choice for myself long time ago.


Dear prabjot kaur ji 


This means that even panj pyaras are not doing their work properly so does this mean that they should be corrected as they are wrong or you mean to say that you dont care what they say


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## truthseeker (Dec 14, 2004)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

GushK ji has a very good point,

 How many ppl here would be able to honestl say that they could go out and kill an animal just to satisy there hungry? We eat because he have to to survive, but then shouldnt we just eat what we need, not what we feel like. If u were in the middle of a jungle then of course u would have to eat sum kind of animal but now adays we have everything at our convienece so y eat a poor inocent animal when we could eat vegetables, lentil etc... We do not NEED meat to survive. 

One may say 'We need to have protein" and that it tru but you can eat lentils, tofu and even soya products that will give that. In the end the choice is up to the individual but they should think how would they feel if they were that animal being killed just becuase someone else felt like eating it?

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguur ji ki fateh!


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## Prabjyot Kaur (Dec 15, 2004)

drkhalsa said:
			
		

> Dear prabjot kaur ji
> 
> 
> This means that even panj pyaras are not doing their work properly so does this mean that they should be corrected as they are wrong or you mean to say that you dont care what they say



DrKhalsa ji,
Panj Piyare very much are guru-roop and are doing their work properly. They follow the rehat Maryada as per SGPC Rehat Maryada; which prohibits 'kutha' only and does not ask you to stop eating all kind of meat and eggs too.

Prabhjot


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 15, 2004)

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Brother Arvind Singh Ji and sister P Kaur
 do not take das as wrong as Das may sound offense but this directed towards often some people who come in our way to do something for Panth.
Here 'you'  word is in Genral sense and should be taken as 'someone' and it is not at all a personal offense.
Das do respect the Vegitarian ploicy of Nirmalas,Damadami Taksal,Akhand Kirtani Jatha,Nanaksar,Rara Sahib and others.

But Das is rather sad  that actual meaning of his views was changed.

From here does Das starts :-


Eating is not for taste but to live.To live we do kill plants.Science has proven that plants also have life and emotions.The instrument made by Jagdessh Chandra Basu showed that even if the gardener wasd hurt,Respiration of plant was increased.

If no nerves then does not means that it is without life and feeling.Science is still to get what Gurmat got during the time of Gurus.God is in All.And life is in Andaz,Jeraz,Setaz and Utbhoj.One of them is plant kingdom.

And what about killing an animal who has a nerous brreakdowen or whose nerves we can make numb before killing(This is anyway not needed in Jatka)
Khalsa is Raj Yog,the suprereme union,Here we are not the doer buy God Akal is doer.Karta mean doer and creator both.In Karam Yoga me may have deeds but in Khalsa order it is Karmu(mercy) in Arebic and not deeds (Karma) of Sanskrit.

Your deeds are Mercy(Karmu) By Akal and not your Karma.

JapuJI Sahib say,In order/control(of God) are all,Out of control is none,Says Nanak,who understand control does not say/feels Haumai(ego).

In Jains or in our own class of some Sikh ego is more strong in the one not eating meat then one eating meat.Because they still have a sense of doer.And that if you say that you are a doer then you are having a dualist or Dwait feeling called Duja Bhav in Panth.

Think self,food or any thing other then called or feeling there is something second from first(God) is Duja Bhav,till we have it,It will not let us atain Realisation of Truth.(our Salvation is not mukti type of hindus but it is love to the lotus feet of God).

God has compeeled us to eat life,as plant,As microbes in air we breath or water we drink.Water which we drink after purification as a good lot of dead organisams,If God has kept us compelled then how can we librate ourself by being selective in food and with hope of doing good and salvation.

hope or action are not in Sikhism but more in jainism.We only have faith and divine knowledge given to us by Akal.

Das statrted the topic related to beef and as usual meat issue came there a few things das will put from there also.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=5171




> In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242


here it is only symbol to cruppt practice,Term Maass(Meat) is not used but term Murdar(Dead) is used. In India so  called lower classes/castes are hated as they eat dead(died of natural death,In Sura  2 of holy Kuran for Muslim eating Murdar(Dead) animal is prohibbited,Same is in jews,Some Nihung too do not eat Dead(There is a great diiference between dead and killed for eating)).
das is will given the correct and full meaning below.
slok mÚ 1 ] (1242-18)
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:
kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
Here You can see that food is terned as dead and not as meat.And as you see further it is said for wrong practises.
kUVu boil boil Baukxw cUkw Drmu bIcwru ] (1242-19, swrMg, mÚ 1)
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
belowAnd these are the Bad habits which Gurudev say.

ijn jIvMidAw piq nhI muieAw mMdI soie ] (1242-19, swrMg, mÚ 1)
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Page 1243 iliKAw hovY nwnkw krqw kry su hoie ]1] (1243-1, swrMg, mÚ 1) likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay. ||1|| Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. ||1||kUVu Curw muTw murdwru ] (24-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.
Falsehood is my dagger; deception is carcasses of the dead.
Above a hundter/looter caste is made to explain a satate of mind(Sakhi even says that Gurudev might have taken such form to give a lesson).

Below there are versions which Clearly give the Differance between Dead (Murdar) and Meat(mass)
See the one underline.

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (15-2)
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
lyKY bolxu bolxw lyKY Kwxw Kwau ] (15-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
laykhai bolan bolnaa laykhai khaanaa khaa-o.
As it is pre-ordained, people speak their words. As it is pre-ordained, they consume their food.
lyKY vwt clweIAw lyKY suix vyKwau ] (15-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
laykhai vaat chalaa-ee-aa laykhai sun vaykhaa-o.
As it is pre-ordained, they walk along the way. As it is pre-ordained, they see and hear.
lyKY swh lvweIAih pVy ik puCx jwau ]1] (15-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
laykhai saah lavaa-ee-ahi parhay ke puchhan jaa-o. ||1||
As it is pre-ordained, they draw their breath. Why should I go and ask the scholars about this? ||1||
bwbw mwieAw rcnw Dohu ] (15-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
baabaa maa-i-aa rachnaa Dhohu.
O Baba, the splendor of Maya is deceptive.
AMDY nwmu ivswirAw nw iqsu eyh n Ehu ]1] rhwau ] (15-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
anDhai naam visaari-aa naa tis ayh na oh. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The blind man has forgotten the Name; he is in limbo, neither here nor there. ||1||Pause||
jIvx mrxw jwie kY eyQY KwjY kwil ] (15-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jeevan marnaa jaa-ay kai aythai khaajai kaal.
Life and death come to all who are born. Everything here gets devoured by Death.
ijQY bih smJweIAY iqQY koie n cilE nwil ] (15-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jithai bahi samjaa-ee-ai tithai ko-ay na chali-o naal.
He sits and examines the accounts, there where no one goes along with anyone.
rovx vwly jyqVy siB bMnih pMf prwil ]2] (15-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
rovan vaalay jayt-rhay sabh baneh pand paraal. ||2||
Those who weep and wail might just as well all tie bundles of straw. ||2||
sBu ko AwKY bhuqu bhuqu Git n AwKY koie ] (15-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
sabh ko aakhai bahut bahut ghat na aakhai ko-ay.
Everyone says that God is the Greatest of the Great. No one calls Him any less.
kImiq iknY n pweIAw khix n vfw hoie ] (15-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
keemat kinai na paa-ee-aa kahan na vadaa ho-ay.
No one can estimate His Worth. By speaking of Him, His Greatness is not increased.
swcw swhbu eyku qU hoir jIAw kyqy loA ]3] (15-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
saachaa saahab ayk too hor jee-aa kaytay lo-a. ||3||
You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3||
nIcw AMdir nIc jwiq nIcI hU Aiq nIcu ] nwnku iqn kY sMig swiQ vifAw isau ikAw rIs ] (15-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
neechaa andar neech jaat neechee hoo at neech. naanak tin kai sang saath vadi-aa si-o ki-aa rees.
Nanak seeks the company of the lowest of the low class, the very lowest of the low. Why should he try to compete with the great?
ijQY nIc smwlIAin iqQY ndir qyrI bKsIs ]4]3] (15-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jithai neech samaalee-an tithai nadar tayree bakhsees. ||4||3||
In that place where the lowly are cared for-there, the Blessings of Your Glance of Grace rain down. ||4||3||
isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (15-9)
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
lbu kuqw kUVu cUhVw Tig KwDw murdwru ] (15-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

See here Murdar is used
pr inMdw pr mlu muK suDI Agin k®oDu cMfwlu ] (15-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.
Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.
rs ks Awpu slwhxw ey krm myry krqwr ]1] (15-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar. ||1||
I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator! ||1||
bwbw bolIAY piq hoie ] (15-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.
O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.
aUqm sy dir aUqm khIAih nIc krm bih roie ]1] rhwau ] (15-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. ||1||Pause||
rsu suienw rsu rupw kwmix rsu prml kI vwsu ] (15-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.
The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,
rsu GoVy rsu syjw mMdr rsu mITw rsu mwsu ] (15-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.
the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet and the pleasure of meat
As you could see thats the difference.
eyqy rs srIr ky kY Git nwm invwsu ]2] (15-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas. ||2||
-these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart? ||2||
ijqu boilAY piq pweIAY so boilAw prvwxu ] (15-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.
Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.
iPkw boil ivgucxw suix mUrK mn Ajwx ] (15-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.
Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!
jo iqsu Bwvih sy Bly hoir ik khx vKwx ]3] (15-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan. ||3||
Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said? ||3||
iqn miq iqn piq iqn Dnu plY ijn ihrdY rihAw smwie ] (15-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.
Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.
iqn kw ikAw swlwhxw Avr suAwilau kwie ] (15-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.
What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?
nwnk ndrI bwhry rwcih dwin n nwie ]4]4] (15-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay. ||4||4||
O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name. ||4||4||


Das is not encouraging Non Veg but is totaly against the misinterpreting of Gurbani.Ram Rai was shunned and another Sikh during the time of Tenth Guru was beaten,Legend Say that Bhai Mani Singh went to Shaheedi as he seperated Bani of different Gurus From holy Granth so he paid by seperation of body parts.
(Das may be wrong for last instance).

so as per above verses,Guru is just trying to tell that real dead eating and mater of hate are wrong deeds.Das here want to put forth that dead eating lower castes are hated by upper caste and Guru said that by eating they are not Bad but by doing wrong by anyone is Bad.(incidently das has seen may so called Sikhs  who hate non vegitarians but do eat murdar by cheating others.)

Lets see taste factor in the same verse Above Guru says

Pleasure is in Horse riding,houses,wealth,Women(for men),Sweet and meat.So did Sikhs are forbiddan to ride horse or to marry or to attain wealth or house or to eat sweet(Karrah Prasad is sweet) So why is meat forbbidddan.

Gurudev might have had all the pleasure(Ras) so does he says that they are in body.This also prove that he might have had the taste of meat and pleasue from it.If Guru is saying then what is wrong.

Eating for Taste is wrong be it sweet or be it wheat or be it meat. And it is overcome by saying that eater is God only and God is the Bhukta(Japu Sahib). May be Vegitarians miss the taste of meat or have a sort of Trishna(want) for that taste so they tend to think that we eat it for taste.

What taste a boiled pork with salt give on hills or snaowy areas,It gives instant diestable fat to warm body where we do not have electricity or heating arrangement.People who have no military expirance may say
such thing by Giving exceptions but as rule it is impossible for a normal man to live without meat in war or in hard labouer else he/she may liqur.
Many saint do not eat meat,School of Das ie Nirmalas as well as others like Damdami Taksal(There also meat is not sin if nothing edible is to be fouond),Sewa Panthis or Udasis to do not eat meat.Reason is to maintain the heat(of desire) which meat increses but same repruductive fluid of male 's count can increse with chocolates ,peanuts etc.But what abouot the one living in extereme cold or heavy labour or in battlefileds.Das challenge any of Vegitarin supporting Sikh Let him show his/her sternght,let him/her join Army or Hard labouor task where one is exposeed to the vaguries of Nature.Then give Das an answer,People say that saint was seen moving in cold snow of Canada but deers also roam who eat grass as Saint is also vegitarian.But what about wolfs over there who are much more capable to kill the deer.

There are many babas,who want to keep sangat repeat Wahiguru,Wahiguru,Without knowing what is Sabad Guru,They misqoute Gurbani as they want to compete with Sabad Guru(Guru in the form of word) Examples are Baniari,Nirnakri,Asutoos,Radhswamis etc.etc.

such guys are made by Akal to misguide Sikhs into Duja bhav.They help hindtuva in Panth's intrusion.Casue diifernt Code and couse division in Panth.

Das too is from Nirmalas but they have faith in Akal and Guru Granth Ji.

Often when old stories related to Gurus are told in Gurudwaras and use of meat is there,they scip it.

They do not eat meat as they do not fight often they are unamarried.

They belive in caste,Pictures of Gurus ,Gurbani to be used as spell and even dead,Is this Gurmat.

Do Sikhs also be like sheep which eat grass.Or do they be like lion.

And what about animal right terrorists or hitler or RSS people who do not eat meat but are mercyless to man.Some of our so Called Sikh even kill or beat a man who does not belive in vewgitarianism.So is this the peace of mind does vegitarianism gives??

But coming Back to history,In Vichetra Natak,Gurudev himself wrote,it was a narration and he told that he killed Blue bull,Swamp Deer etc.Never it is mentioned that any salvation was behind this.

Let us talk of Salvation.Animal which will be killed for the consumption of Khalsa,The special form of Tenth Nanak or Animal or Plant killed by Khalsa may not that also be librated from birth(yoni) of 'lower form',Who says that animal or plants are lower,Jains or Christians.Singh sees Akal in All,All have Akal equally in all.

Das at end comes on history,

When Second Nanak met Third Nanak first,In Langer meat was served,Third Nanak was a Vaishnav,Who do not eat meat,He said if this Guru is true,I will not be served the meat.Guru told the serving person to not to serve him meat.

Next day in langer again meat was served.This time just to test the faith of New Sikh Baba AmerDas Ji,Guru Angad Dev Ji made him to eat meat.
(Vegis of present day tend to skip or fabricate about this Sakhi,This is falsehood and they will pay for it as a rebirth)

Das has carefully studied the Mangal Prakash Granth at the time of Tenth Guru,There were 500 Testomonis but only 100 at a time are clibbed togather,
Hense called Sau Sakhi.

Many stouch vegitarian Sikhs belive in forecaste of future done in them but they ignore a lot of history wriitenn in there.

At one epsode of Brahmins eating meat Gurudev himself said,'My Sikh can eat meat but Brahmin must not'.Das is not a Brahmin.Sikh Bhai Alam Singh was having Brahmin forefathers,But as he was Sikh he was allowed to eat meat.

History OK,There is Sahki of Bhai Shameer Jatt of perhaps present day KOt Shammer,Gurudev Gives him part of his(Gurudevs) food as a blessing to be eaten to get salvation.That food contained Maha Prasad of Jhatka.So Shmeers Maternal uncle did not let them eat as he worshipped dead peers of Muslims and non Halal food was not allowed.

When Gurudev went to the Garden of MadhoDAs Bairagi,Who later becaem Gurbux Singh Banda Bahadur,Guru let his female deer(doe) and 2 pet Goat(number may be wrong) get killed and cooked.He also wanted to brake the Duja Bhav or ego of Banda.(Present vegis say Guru only destroyed the Garden it is a lie,as there mann(mind) does not belive so they tend to follow mann so they are mannmukh)

There was a Bania Sikh too in the time of Gurudev ,who did not like meat eating guru and failed the test.(Sau Sakhi)

In book of Sohan Singh Sheetal,Sikh Raj Kiven Banya,State abouot Bandai Khalsa ,who belived Banada as there Guru,Grasseater(Vegi) is Habitually less fighter and thence Bandai took more to the care taking of gurudwaras as a Mahants.

Today too most vegies live in cocoon or yoke of Past glory of my father was king(pisram Sulatan bood)About future they are oblivious and tend to live in four wall of Gurudawaras.

About Nihungs taking drugs or alchohal,They are against addiction but in real simulated War(Halla) unlike the play of child which is called Gatka,In True Shaster Vidya,Injuris are real and even fatal if fight is one horse.Till painkiller is not given it may not be done.Let some veg repeat what Nihungs do.

what about medicines like painkillers having many drugs in them or Alchola based homeophathy drugs or cough syrup.

Do not talk about operation blue star.It was a defensive operation by Sikhs.Nations are made by offensive missions.Indian forces left complex asfter they saw,that mat eating solodier of Indian army some of them were taking liqur too were rebeling,The Singhs all of them in complex too were vegitarian.

Babbers's front was broken in 5 hours and one of thier bibi surrendered with hands up.

This is disgracefull.

The first Sultan(King) of Sikh Jassa Singh Ahluwal,Use to eat a whole male goat and 1.5 ser of pucca butter at one time.



> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!
> 
> GushK ji has a very good point,
> 
> ...


das want to make a point here,unlike the plant proteen,animal proteen get digested fast.Das had a typhoid,Hindu call it Matijhara Mata,

Das was on meat diet(it is a sin as per hindus) so he never had any problem to do day to day work as it got digested easyly else often hindus looses hairs or even feel every weak in similar ailament or even measal or chicken pox.

Pro Veg people first let it be wriitten of meat product,'injurious to health,' Like tobacco or liquer,Then das think on scientific line.

Rahter in India,high caste pagans who have intruded into Sikhism always use this weapon to manitain high seat in managaement committe,

They say Butchers or other meat eating Sikhs lower caste are not Sikhs at all.
They even do not allow Gurbani to run in Butchers shop(one of The Saint Sadhana,whose Bani is in Adi Guru Darbar,Was incidently a butcher).

There are many poors in India,Who are neo Sikhs,They get cheap proteen as dead animals or goat mear by product or pork.Why should there be a bondage on them.


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## Amerikaur (May 17, 2005)

I don't have enough intimate knowledge or of another person's body to tell them what to eat or what not to eat...nor do I have the spiritual authority to decide for anyone else.


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## Lionchild (May 22, 2005)

*There really is no good reason for ppl to eat meat exept out of being lazy.*

After all, it's not easy being a vegetarian, but the rewards are short and long term. When i turned vegetarin, i started to notice sutle but noticible imrovments in my skin and color health. I also found out that it greatly reduces your chance to develope hear disease and other several problems. Knowing that beef and other meats are often pumped full of hormones and fed waste by products also prompted me to become a vegetarian.

It's actually easy to get the info and proper food to be a vegetarian, but you need the will power to stay a vegetarin.

The onlt time when eating meat would be permicable is when your at someone elses place or taken out to dinner and the other person orders for you. And when in a really despereate situation, you can eat meat.

Other than that, eating meat is purely unecessary.

edit: there is a difference between telling ppl what to do and giving information and your viewpoint on a subject like this.


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## UnstoppableSingh (May 22, 2005)

This is the only thing i'm gonna say on this topic of Meat.

Eating meat isn't bad nor good nor evil. 

3 simple lifestyle rules Sikhs are taught from Gurbani is Talk less, Sleep Less and Eat Less. 
Eating Less doesn't mean starving or mal-nutrition. Because without this body we can't progress on the spiritual path. Eating Less is the limitation of Eating out of Taste (which usually leads to over eating). Taste leads to 2 things Greed (wanting to eat as much as you can) and Desire (Desire of good tasting things ie Chocolate, cake or what not)

Eating 6 Bowls of Kheer is much worse then someone eating a peice of meat in there dinner. The belief that meat is anti-holy is stupidity and ones own inability to read and understand Gurbani for oneself. The excuse so and so Baba told me so is the reason the Panth is in huge disarray. 

------------------------------------------------------

Second part of this meat issue is a bit more on the higher end of Spirituality. Most of us seem to forget we are just beginners on the path. We put pressures on ourselves and limit our spiritual growth by putting restraints on issues that don't effect the mind or soul until much futher on the path. 

First part of the Spiritual path is phyiscal. Outward appearance. For Sikhs this involves 5 Ks. The ability to accept things as God given and not altering them is just part of the First step. 

Second is Karmatic life style. Understanding Right from Wrong and restraining from Wrong. This builds ones moral character.

Third. Control of Thoughts. To control ones mind is the first step of Bhakti. Because before this our mind wanders and doesn't allow one to focus on Ek. We do what is called Vocal Praying (speaking but making no difference in the growth of the mind).

AT this stage many simple things affect us. Meat and other issues like 
1) Who prepared the food
2) Where the food was prepared
3) Thought that went into the food 

becomes an issue on this level. Because thoughts carried in to the body from Food greatly effect ones thoughts and can stop ones Bhatki. 
Sangat and other aspects greatly effect one at this level on the path of Spirituality.

This is the only time when eating meat becomes an issue for a Sikh. Because the thought of the animal and the thought of the preparer of the food carry on to the mind of the ones partaking in the food. And as the thought carries on it multiplies to give greater effect on ones mind. 

Most of us (probably 99.999% of the world) aren't one this level yet. We can barely accept our Guru given outward appearance. Let alone try to stop doing wrong by little "white" lies or fibbing. Thoughts and Thoughts force is way later on for us. Don't try to jump right up there because the fall back down usually destroys ones will to get back on the path.


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## Nim_23 (May 16, 2006)

Our guru said if  we can eat meat BUT not halal meat.  There is a word in punjabi said by our gurus for mest that is halal i will check it out and let you know soon.


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## Nim_23 (May 16, 2006)

Our gurus said we CAN eat meat BUT the meat has to be NOT HALAL. Sikhs are not to eat halal meat.  Will get back with more info.


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> *I was hoping to start this discussion myself soon, but anyway, here are my two cents....*
> 
> *I would like to share two quotes from Guruji:*
> *Page 723*
> ...





To the first point Caramel......that is a bit of a nauty and misleading translation you have been given (probably by Dera/Sant type people).

Read the english with the Gurmukhi:


Page 723, Line 14
ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥
बंदे चसम दीदं फनाइ ॥
banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 723, Line 14
ਦੁਨਂ​‍ੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
दुनींआ मुरदार खुरदनी गाफल हवाइ ॥ रहाउ ॥
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 723, Line 15
ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
गैबान हैवान हराम कुसतनी मुरदार बखोराइ ॥
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
*Guru Arjan Dev*
 
Here they have translated Mudar to mean carcasses. This is incorrect. *Murdar means “The Dead” as in Dead Human* beings. So what this translation is actually saying is that the world survives on the misfortunes of a fellow human being, and is absolutely nothing to do with meat eating. It should read something like this:

The world eats dead humans, living by neglect and greed.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and feed on the bones of the dead.



Point 2…no Amritdhari’s do not have to avoid meat, however, some Baba’s and Dera’s have taken it upon themselves to introduce abstinence from meat eating as part of the Amrit Ceremony……..this is clearly an abhoration.


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## Lionchild (May 16, 2006)

this thread is so going to get closed...


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

Kandola said:
			
		

> meat is normally eaten just for its taste.
> 
> is that what the gurus said? kill things for taste?
> 
> ...


 
The *taste *argument is a false one.....because if that is the case then by tase I am addicted to White Channay!!! Note I am a meat eater.

For my powerlifting, meat as pst of a balanced diet gives me  much more strength than the average vegetarian.

According to Bani, there is no difference between a plant, animal, or rock.........it does however differentiate between a human being and these.


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

GushK said:
			
		

> Quick thing, not as elaborate as everyone else's posts.
> 
> Being vegetarian myself, I do have a certain bias in this argument but there seem to be many people who argue for being able to eat meat and quote gurbani etc. It seems to me that it's very easy to argue you're point when the meat you wish to eat is available pre-packaged, blood drained, skinned, plucked and ready to cook.
> 
> ...


 
Same could be said of a Vegetarian......go to a farm.......plough up the soil killing worms and other organisms.......destroy natural habitats of wildlife....spray your crops killing all the insects.........etc etc


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

Prabjyot Kaur said:
			
		

> Ditto. I am Vegetarian myself & was not told to do so by Panj Piyare. Living with the vegetarian family; I made this choice for myself long time ago.


 
My cousins have taken Amrit and not once have they been told to abstain from eating meat.....and that was in India.

Methinks this abstinance from meat think has been added in by various Sects,Baba's and Dera's.


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

truthseeker said:
			
		

> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!
> 
> GushK ji has a very good point,
> 
> ...


 
You are projecting your own opinion on a faith called Sikhism which does not say eat meat, or eat vegetables. It does not make a judgement either way.

Just because you do not see a plant squirm, does not make your acts any more pious. There are beans and plants that we eat that try to poison people to avoid being eaten, yet we soak them overnight or crush them so as to remove the poisons, just so we can satisfy our own conscience into thinking we have taken no life. The argument in the context of Sikhism is a folly my friend.

Page 143
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 
मः १ ॥ 
mehlaa 1. 
First Mehl: 

ਵੇਖੁ ਜਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਟਿਆ ਕਟਿ ਕੁਟਿ ਬਧਾ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
वेखु जि मिठा कटिआ कटि कुटि बधा पाइ ॥ 
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay. 
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles, 
ਖੁੰਢਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਦੇਨਿ ਸੁ ਮਲ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ 
खुंढा अंदरि रखि कै देनि सु मल सजाइ ॥ 
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay. 
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed. 

ਰਸੁ ਕਸੁ ਟਟਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਪੈ ਤੈ ਵਿਲਲਾਇ ॥ 
रसु कसु टटरि पाईऐ तपै तै विललाइ ॥ 
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay. 
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out. 

ਭੀ ਸੋ ਫੋਗੁ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਦਿਚੈ ਅਗਿ ਜਾਲਾਇ ॥ 
भी सो फोगु समालीऐ दिचै अगि जालाइ ॥ 
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay. 
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਠੈ ਪਤਰੀਐ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਆਇ ॥੨॥ 
नानक मिठै पतरीऐ वेखहु लोका आइ ॥२॥ 
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2|| 
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

Singhstah said:
			
		

> taken from http://tapoban.org/meat.htm
> 
> Arguments Against Meat
> 
> ...


 
A flawed article from start to finish.

The *alleged* Hukamnama by Guru Hargobind ji has *never *been verified.

It reamains the proverbial rabbit out of the hat.:whisling:


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## Nim_23 (May 16, 2006)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To read full article go to:[/FONT]
http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the Guru visited Kurukshetra in Haryana, a big fair was being held at the holy tank to celebrate the solar eclipse. There were a large number of pilgrims all over the country. On his arrival at the fair, Guru Nanak had Mardana cook them a meat dish of a deer presented to them by one of his followers. Upon finding that meat was being cooked on the holy premises, a large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the Guru for what they thought amounted to sacrilege _(Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123)_. Upon hearing the angry crowd Guru Nanak responded;[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is meat and what is plant? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non- vegetarian?" (Malhar)[/FONT] 



			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> Time to a set up a thread about the highly controversial "Meat" topic.
> 
> Please discuss.


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 16, 2006)

Gurfateh

That Huqam Nammah was OK at that time as in Bihar we need to do Naam Abhyas and Meat and fish could be some problem for the beginer.


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## Randip Singh (May 16, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> That Huqam Nammah was OK at that time as in Bihar we need to do Naam Abhyas and Meat and fish could be some problem for the beginer.


 
Brother......no other Sikh scholar worth his salt has refered to this.

I mean come on...Bhai Randhir Singh (of AKJ) fame and staunch vegetarian all of a sudden uncovers this Hukamnama........I doon't think so..:whisling:


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## kds1980 (May 17, 2006)

is that hukamnama founded by bhai randhir singh ?


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## J.A.T.T (May 17, 2006)

Nim_23 said:
			
		

> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To read full article go to:[/FONT]
> http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm
> 
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the Guru visited Kurukshetra in Haryana, a big fair was being held at the holy tank to celebrate the solar eclipse. There were a large number of pilgrims all over the country. On his arrival at the fair, Guru Nanak had Mardana cook them a meat dish of a deer presented to them by one of his followers. Upon finding that meat was being cooked on the holy premises, a large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the Guru for what they thought amounted to sacrilege _(Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123)_. Upon hearing the angry crowd Guru Nanak responded;[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is meat and what is plant? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non- vegetarian?" (Malhar)[/FONT]


 
Here's the full quote from Guru Granth Sahib. 

"*The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?* It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat." - Guru Granth Sahib (Page 1289)


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## J.A.T.T (May 17, 2006)

Anyway, why do some Sikhs try so hard to make vegetarians look good and make meat-eating Sikhs look bad for?

Man, it is okay to eat meat if you want to. There isn't a rule in Sikhi that states that eating meat is wrong.

Sometimes these vegetarian Sikhs remind me of Brahmin Hindus because how they both preach about how wrong it is to eat meat while being vegetarian makes you more religious and spiritual, which by the way is NOT true at all.


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## Nim_23 (May 17, 2006)

I agree with you. Not all vegetarians who think they make more pious people are more pious.

I myself prefer vegetarian food to meat. However, it is an individual thinking or preference to consume it. 

I have only read in one of Sikh 4 taboos that we are not to eat halal meat.

If I can scan the poster where I read this. I will definitely scan it and put it up for all to see soon.

Same goes for Sikhs who are modern and those with turbans.  Some Sikh people think that having a turban means you are respecting/following your religion. 

BUT how many of these turban men are actually following the religion?

They have been seen smoking and consuming alcohol outside with turbans on their heads and even womanizing.

I think a Sikh with a turban seen doing such things are doing a bigger sin than modern Sikhs.

No offence to what I say.  I welcome any comments.


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## Randip Singh (May 17, 2006)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> is that hukamnama founded by bhai randhir singh ?


 
Apparently Bhai Randhir Singh presented this evidence to Ganda Singh, and no other credible scholar since then has verified this source.


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## Randip Singh (May 17, 2006)

Nim_23 said:
			
		

> I agree with you. Not all vegetarians who think they make more pious people are more pious.
> 
> I myself prefer vegetarian food to meat. However, it is an individual thinking or preference to consume it.
> 
> ...


 
I agree.

I have tried both sides of the fence in the quest for spirituality, and to think one diet vegetarian or meat eating will lead to more spirituality is duality and egotism.

There are however a hardcore of lunatics on the websites that are keen to rubbish meat eating Sikhs at any costs. www.info-sikh.com, which is run by a Brahmin in a turban is a classic example of this. Presenting rhetorc as facts.

I think this sort of fanaticism makes vegetarian Sikhs look like they are intolerant, when the reality of it is, many of them are very tolerant like you Nim.


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 17, 2006)

Gurfateh
Info-sikh.com person is freind of Das and is more influence by Taksal.
But Maryada of Damdai Taksal is for that school only and there meat eating is OK to be disallowed.

So in Taksal area das may not eat meat as in own Nirmals ashram but otherwise das took it last night.


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## Nim_23 (May 17, 2006)

I am sorry but could you elaborate more I am seriously ignorant about what you meant by:

*Gurfateh
Info-sikh.com person is freind of Das and is more influence by Taksal.
But Maryada of Damdai Taksal is for that school only and there meat eating is OK to be disallowed.

So in Taksal area das may not eat meat as in own Nirmals ashram but otherwise das took it last night.*

Thanks and sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Regards


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## Randip Singh (May 17, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> Info-sikh.com person is freind of Das and is more influence by Taksal.
> But Maryada of Damdai Taksal is for that school only and there meat eating is OK to be disallowed.
> 
> So in Taksal area das may not eat meat as in own Nirmals ashram but otherwise das took it last night.


 
Then why is it called info-sikh....when clearly it is info-damdaitaksal?


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 18, 2006)

Gurfateh

sometime people think that Taksal is Gurmat.

Das gave them name in Uk as Damdami Taksal Akhand Kirtani Jatha as they were coping the ways of AKJ.As such Das bows to the views of AKJ and find them better Sikhs then das himslef.

but Taksal had a differtn nieche and presetn Mukhi Baba Harnam Singh are doing the same which was absent after Sant Ji(Sant Ji on the record said that amrit from sgpc is same that of Chowk Mehta and many people in his force ate meat,as they were Singhs and nnot Taksali Singhs).

Yet present Mukhi has to do lot more to do soething for eqaulty of female(that is anywayn offf the topic).

what happens among us das included that say if das eats meat das may try to force others of prove that it is OK in Panth.We often fail to understand the feeling of others.

Inspite of knowing that das is meat eater does this person often helps das especaily when some anti gurmat thing comes in.Das did call him to talk to sikh namdhair as one of our member but he was away at holidyas and when he comes we can talk on that.

But if we see

Bhai Randheer Singh had Freind who supported meat eating like Akali Kaur Singh ji or Bhai Veer Singh Ji.

Sant Ji had good realtion with Bidhichandiya Nihungs and Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji also had good realtion with them.

Many nihungs still go to Taksal but after coming out restart not only meat but also smothing das does not use ie sukhnidhan ie cannbis and panj Ratnis ie wine.


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## Nim_23 (May 18, 2006)

Thanks Vijaydeep Singh for the explaination.

Regards


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## Nim_23 (May 18, 2006)

Dear all,

I have posted a new thread at 

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/annoucements/8803-is-sin-sikh-marry-non-sikh.html?highlight=Is+it+a+SIN+for+a+SIKH+to+marry+a+NON-SIKH%3F#post25442

Hope we can have a discussion at the above link.

Thank you.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH


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## Lionchild (May 30, 2006)

we should not be setting up these threads... this topic is going to get banned soon, as we do not want to create divisions in the community.

-LC


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 8, 2007)

*DIET AND SPIRITUALITY* ​slok mÚ 1 ] kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] kUVu boil boil Baukxw cUkw Drmu bIcwru ] ​ijn jIvMidAw piq nhI muieAw mMdI soie ] iliKAw hovY nwnkw krqw kry su hoie ]​In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; 
they eat dead animals for food. They bark and speak, telling only lies; 
Dharma and Vichaar have left them. Those who have no honor while alive, 
will have an evil reputation after they die (sggs 1242). 
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. 
Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? 
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? (sggs 1103) 
By drinking, one's intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind; 
he cannot distinguish between his own and others’ — 
he is struck down by his Lord. By drinking, he forgets his Lord, 
and he is punished in the Court of the Lord (sggs 554). 
The truest of the true burn away the bonds of the world, 
and eat a simple diet of grain and water (sggs 467). 
<><><><>​A mind that is attached to sense pleasures can never stay firm on spiritual heights. Out of all physical senses of man's body, the sense of taste (i.e., tongue!) is the most difficult to control. This is why people go out of their way to justify their heinous habits or _Vaasnaa_ of indulgence in gratification of this sense. However, one of the most important disciplines necessary for linking with God is the control of the tongue exercised both in the areas of food and speech. The edict of the Gurbani (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, SGGS) is that without its control it is impossible to follow the path of devotion and become one with Waheguru, God. 
· ] ijhvw suAwd loB mid mwqo aupjy Aink  ibkwrw ] 
_Jihvaa suaad lobh mad maato upjai anik bikaar_ - You are intoxicated with the tastes of the      
 tongue, with greed and pride; countless sins spring from these (sggs 616). 
· _Ye rasnaa too anras laag rahee teree piyaas na jaayi. Piyaas na jaayehorat kitaai jichar Hari raas payi_ - O my tongue, you are engrossed in other tastes, but your thirsty desire is not quenched. Your thirst shall not be quenched by any means, until you attain the subtle essence of the Lord (sggs 921). 
· _Jitnee bhookh an ras saad hai titnee bhookh phir laagai_ - The more one feels hunger for other tastes and pleasures, the more this hunger persists (sggs 167). 
· _Mithiyaa rasna bhojan an swaad_ - False is the tongue which enjoys delicacies and tastes (sggs 269). 
Material researchers (modern scientists) study and analyze the foods according to their physical properties and how they react on the physical body. However the spiritual scientists, who from ancient times delved in the spiritual science of foodstuff, consider the vibratory nature of food in determining what is uplifting, stimulating, stultifying or harmful when consumed. Hence, the aim of the true devotee is to purify himself of material contamination by nurturing his mode of goodness through pure and spiritually uplifting means. He knows that even the food he consumes, and also the manner in which he partakes of it, has its effect on the body and consciousness according to its vibratory quality. 
Therefore, regulation of diet, company, sleep, etc., is recommended in the scriptures for the sincere seekers of Truth. Which is, for example, eat light and less. For that reason, a true _Giani_ always eats light and less (_Saatvic_), as well as sleep less! Thus, he neither tortures his body, nor pampers it with sense gratification. Overeating or wrong eating is the enemy of meditative mind; eating insufficiently, on the other hand, leads to physical and mental weakness. Similarly, oversleep dulls the nervous system; not enough sleep produces a tendency to sleep against one's will. All of this is undesirable to the seeker of Truth. Baabaa Nanak Says: 
· _Kali hoyee kutte muhee khaaj hoyaa murdaar_: In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat dead animals for food (sggs 1242). 
· _Seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj_ - Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food (sggs 1242). 
· _Saad sahaj kari mann khelaaiaa. Tai sahi paasahu kahan kaaiaa. Mithaa kari kai kaurhaa khaaiaa_ - In relishes and pleasure, people play their mind games. When they approach You, O Lord, they will receive admonitions. They think it is sweet, so they eat the bitter (sggs 1243). 
Overeating, fasting, eating dead-animals, drinking, smoking, sleeping too much or too little, etc., is for those who are in the mode of ignorance or passion. Simply put: Give the body its due, neither pampering nor abusing or torturing it, and then forget the body! In a natural way (_Sahaj_), thus, as the inner consciousness becomes spiritualized through progress in devotion, selfless work, study of scriptures, and meditation on the _Naam_ the body also becomes spiritualized; then its material demands gradually diminish, spontaneously. 
· _Bin naavai mann tek na tiakaee Nanak bhookh na jaaee... _- Without the Name, the mind has no firm support; O Nanak, its hunger never departs. The Guru has revealed the shop and the city within the home of my own heart, where I intuitively carry on the true trade. Sleep little, and eat little; O Nanak, this is the essence of wisdom (sggs 939). 
· _Alap ahaar sulbh see nidraa daya ke maakhan cheet_ - Eat less, sleep less, and keep your mind soft like butter with compassion (Paatshaahee 10). 
· _Naaty-ashnatas tu yogo sti na caikaantam anashnatah....._ - There is no possibility of one's becoming a Yogi, O Arjuna, if one eats too much or eats too little, sleeps too much or too little (Gita 6:16). 
· Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (Bible, Methew 4:4). 
Undesirable diet and _Naam Simran_ do not go hand-in-hand. Therefore, for a sincere devotee, it's not even worth thinking much about foods, let alone eating much! Because, if one subjects his body to overeating, not eating enough, or consuming undesirable diet (dead-animals, alcohol, smoking, etc.), he cannot meditate! Thinking of relishes and pleasures is indicative of bondage, sense-slavery, body-consciousness, or "I-am-the-body" idea. The only reason we are placed on earth is to transcend the sense-slavery! 
· _Jag mahi aaiaa so parvaan. Gurmukhi apnaa khasam pashaan_ - By becoming Gurmukh if you realize your Lord, then your coming into this world is approved (sggs 867). 
However, in order to transcend material consciousness or sense-slavery so that our coming into this world is approved, we are urged to become _Gurmukh_ (spiritual being). And to become _Gurmukh_ we need every help we can get — we need to regulate everything in life including diet, company we keep, and so on. Until we become Self-realized, everything we do is in sense gratification. Why pour more fuel on blazing fire! Therefore, if we want to ascend ourselves to the more uplifting mode of goodness and beyond, we have to get into the habit of eating good, thinking good, speaking good and doing good. Otherwise body and mind will end up becoming a depository of sensual trash! 
This is why the Gurbani compares all sensual pleasures with a "mirage", an illusion. Why? Because the cause of _Jeeva's_ bondage is enjoyment of sense gratification. Accordingly, we are warned throughout the Gurbani not to indulge in sense pleasures. Instead, we are urged to use the tongue in repeating the _Naam_. 
· _Harichandauree chit bhram sakheeye mrig trisnaa dram chhaayaa. Chanchan saath na chaaltee sakheeye ant taji jaavat maya. Ras bhogan ati roop ras mate in sang sookh na paayaa_ - Maya is a mirage, which deludes the mind, O my companion, like the scent-crazed deer, or the transitory shade of a tree. Maya is fickle, and does not go with you, O my companion; in the end, it will leave you. One may enjoy pleasures and sensual delights with supremely beautiful women, but no one finds peace in this way (sggs 803). 
Our needs are few, while our wants are almost limitless. However, instead of ministering only to our needs, in spiritual ignorance we create limitless wants and then spend rest of our life pursuing the false pleasures. Slowly but surely, we then become slave of our senses. In this context, this article will attempt to reflect on the following: 
· Deep-Rooted Habits 
· Material Nature 
· 'Bhakh' And 'Abhakh' 
· "Kill Your Ego, Not Other Beings": Says The Gurbani 
· Effects Of Diet On Human Behavior 
· Claiming To Be Equal To The Master 
· On Vedas And Animal Sacrifice 
· The Higher Taste: Moving From Animal To Divine Consciousness 
Deep-Rooted Subconscious Habits 
Instinctive mind is a bundle of habits or _Vaasnaas_. It is nothing but a collection of ever changing desires, notions or feelings arising from contact with gross objects. New habits are built into us from childhood. Some remain conscious and others enter our subconscious. Due to our habitual identifications with different objects, deep-rooted subconscious habits are most difficult to overcome. 
A great one has said: "The power of habit is all supreme in the life of man. Many people go through life mentally making good resolutions, without ever succeeding in following what is wholesome. We usually do not do what we wish to do, what only what we are accustomed to do. That is why materially minded persons find it difficult to be spiritually minded even when they try hard. So also spiritual persons find it difficult to be materialistic even when they associate with materially minded people. It is not easy for vicious men to be good and it is hard for noble men to be mean." 
Thus, the man is ruled by his deep-rooted subconscious habits. These habits, in turn, form tendencies, moods, and desires. Early habits formed in the childhood create significant influence on our growing up. These habits are generally formed watching parents, other family members, teachers, friends, etc. At early stage, if we are not taught to form spiritual habits, we are sure to form evil habits. Later on, the other factors that influence shaping our habits include environment and association. For example, undiscriminating association with the world creates bad habits in us. 
· _Jih karnee hovahi sarmindaa ih kamaanee reeti_ - You have made it your habit to practice those deeds which will bring you shame (sggs 673, ln 10). 
· _Kabir Ram na dhiyaayiyo motee laagee khor_ - Kabeer, I have not meditated on the Lord; such is the bad habit I have developed (sggs 1368). 
Mind is slave to routine, customs, and habits. Once mind becomes accustomed to a habit, it then likes to go on doing it. Eventually, habits become like "grooves" in which actions run. More a habit is indulged in, it becomes much easier for the mind to run in that groove. After more repetitions, it begins to enjoy it. After that, the mind never wants to leave these beaten grooves or path. Some of these grooves are the results of impressions of our past lives, and some are the results of actions of this life. 
Once a desire comes up, the mind becomes agitated and finds no peace till the desire is fulfilled. In order to fulfill a desire, the first thing mind does is it brings itself into the action and establishes a groove or habit. Once a groove is established, like a locomotive, it does not want to leave the track (or groove ) on which it is set. All this is because man feels that he can gain everlasting happiness from never-lasting material objects! 
Material contamination of our mind begins with bad habits such as taste for intoxicants, craving for foods not conducive to spiritual progress (dead animals, egg, fish, etc.), illicit sex, gambling, stealing, and so on. In fact bad habits such as illicit sex, gambling, and stealing are all linked to consumption of intoxicants and undesirable foods. As the saying goes: "We are what we eat"! 
Hence, what we eat and drink has tremendous effect on an ordinary person's mind and body. For example, consumption of food such as meat (dead animals) and intoxicants are generally very pleasing to an out-going mind indulged in material life. Conversely, such a diet has certainly no appeal to a sincere spiritual aspirant. Thus, diet is a function of an individual's choice based upon his goal in his life, that is, does one want to become God conscious and go back to his Source, or, does he want to live merely a nonsensical life? God has given us the free will to choose between these two. By the way, there is no mid-way!


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 8, 2007)

Material Nature 
Why does a man prefer a specific type of diet over the other? Why do people perform certain actions, or act in certain ways? Why do mortals cater to certain habits, tendencies and desires? The answers to these questions and more lie in the proper understanding of the three modes of material nature, also known as three qualities of _Maya_. 
· _Trai gun aap sirjian Maya moh vadhaayaa_ - God Himself created the three qualities and increased our love for worldly valuables (sggs 1237). 
The material nature (including all matter) is composed of three ingredients called _Gunas _or"quality". The three qualities are _Saatav (Sat or Sato), Raajas (Raj or Rajo),_ and _Taamas (Tam or Tamo)_. In english, these three modes can be called goodness, passion and ignorance, respectively. 
· _Raj gun tam gun sat gun kaheeai ih teri sabh maya_ - The quality of passion, the quality of ignorance, and the quality of goodness; all these are called the creation of Your power (sggs 1123). 
All beings or _Jeevas_ belong to the Lord's spiritual energy. The true nature of _Jeeva_ or soul is pure consciousness (i.e., it is Eternal, full of Knowledge and Bliss Absolute). However, due to contact with the three modes of material nature, the soul becomes contaminated. The example of rain water may help one to understand it better. A drop of rain water is pure in nature until it hits the ground. Upon coming in contact with the mud or soil, it becomes contaminated and conditioned. Similarly, when soul comes in contact with the three modes of material nature, it becomes conditioned. 
The three qualities of material nature are like intertwined strands of the winding cord or rope of Nature. Through this medium, Nature holds in bondage all embodied beings. These three qualities are part of _Maya_ or delusive force inherent in the creation. The _Saatav_ is symptified by purity, goodness, calmness, enlightenment, etc. The _Raajas_ is symptified by passion, selfish activities, impulse, restlessness, etc. And the _Taamas_ is symptified by inertia, ignorance, dullness, negligence, forgetfulness, darkness, inactivity, lethargicness, etc. The Gurbani examines and analyses Maya as well as diagnoses its maladies. Majority of the people in this world belong to the latter two qualities (i.e., _Raajas_ and _Taamas_). 
· _Trai gun bikhia andh hai maya moh gubar_ - Man is blinded by the wickedness of three qualities of nature and darkness of attachment (sggs 30). 
· _Doojai bhai pare nahin boojhai. Tribidhi maya kaaran lojhai_ - Man entangled in the love of duality does not understand Lord. He (then) longs for the three-qualitied mammon (sggs 127). 
These three qualities or modes of material nature indicate an individual's stage of spiritual development. This is also very important in regard to the fact that Scriptures reveal different meanings to different people, depending on the stage of their spiritual development - that is, _Saatav_ (stage of goodness), _Raajas_ (stage of passion), _Taamas_ (stage of ignorance). Within these three stages or modes of spiritual development, there are numerous sub-stages. 
An individual's actions (_Karama_), as well as his dietary habits depends on his stage of spiritual development. Those in the mode of passion and ignorance, owing to their spiritual development, identify with body or flesh. On the other hand, those in the mode of goodness, identify with the Soul or the Spirit. These three modes of the material nature are briefly described as follows. 
_(1) Taamas_ or Ignorance: This quality in embodied beings arises from spiritual ignorance. This is the enemy of modern society as it destroys the harmony, peace and bliss in one's mind, and then in the society. It deludes all embodied living entities, binding them by madness, misconception, idleness, and indolence. Under the spell of ignorance, one is unable to attain a proper understanding of a thing as it is. For example, the Gurbani repeatedly tells us that the cause of Jeeva's bondage is sense gratification. However, in order to justufy our habit of sense-slavery, we do not even hesitate to twist the true meanings of the scriptural statements. The Gurbani also tells us that the true happiness and liberation come from absorption in Lord's Name (the state of pure Bhakti). But we keep searching for it in the outer objects! 
Knowing that he is mortal, man is still reluctant to make any real progress in spiritual understanding or care for the eternal Spirit. Thus, this quality causes misery and suffering of all kinds. This is the dark evolute of illusory power of _Maya_ which covers knowledge, and prevents man from God realization. The Gurbani says: 
· _Sansaar bikhia koop. Tam agiaan mohat ghoop_ - The world is a well of poison, in it is the pitch darkness of spiritual ignorance and worldly love (sggs 838). 
_Taamasic_ person is full of wrong ideas. He is not interested in associating with those who have saintly qualities, chanting Holy Name, or making any sincere efforts to advance toward the most uplifting mode of goodness. Other symptoms of _Taamsic_ person are addiction to intoxicants, laziness, dullness, inertia, careless, indolent, oversleeping, etc. Like an animal, he is mainly conscious of his body. His activities are demoniac. 
The foods dear to those who have made the mode of _Taamas_ or ignorance the very goal of their life are nutritionally worthless, decomposed, putrid, stale, refuse, and impure. Among the most _Taamsic_ food commonly consumed in the modern society is meat, alcohol and other intoxicants. A _Taamsic_ diet has a malignant effect on the body and the mind, and dulls all aspirations for spiritual growth. 
A _Taamsic_ person performs penances or austerities out of foolishness, with self-torture or to destroy or injure others. And any charity offered by such person is performed at wrong time and wrong place, to unworthy persons (e.g., swindlers in the garb of Saints, _Ragees, Bhais, Parchaaraks_, etc.), without proper attention or respect. 
· _Abhiyagat eh na aakheeahi jin kai mann mahi bharam. Tin ke dite Nanaka teho jehaa dharam_ - Do not call the wandering beggars holy men, if their minds are filled with doubt. Whoever gives to them, O Nanak, earns the same sort of merit (sggs 1413). 
The mode of ignorance is the lowest quality in material nature, and is called the mother of delusion. When man dies in this mode of ignorance, he slides down in the evolutionary process, and takes birth in abominable conditions (i,e, animal like). Hence, the future of a person with this mode is very dark. Ignorance is the sin of sins. _Budha_ says that ignorance is a death itself. 
(2) _Raajas_ or Passion: The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires, longing, and great attachment to mundane objects; and it strongly binds the embodied beings to material fruitive actions. This is characterized by sense slavery: lust, selfish activities, and evil instincts such as anger, greed, delusion, false ego, enviousness, jealousy, etc. With the increase of passion the hankering for sense enjoyment also increases; and, thus, one gets imbued in enjoying sense gratification. Any worship performed by the _Raajsic_ person is generally demoniac. Accordingly, actions performed in the mode of passion result in miseries, sorrows and pains. 
The foods dear to those who have made the mode of _rajas_ or passion the goal of their life are meats, alcohol and other intoxicants, too hot, too sour, salty, pungent, harsh, and burning foods. Such foods cause misery, sorrows, disease, mental agitation and distress. 
Any duty performed for some material benefit, or for the sake of false pride are in the mode of passion. Any austerities or penanaces are said to be in the mode of passion when practiced for the purposes of gaining respect, honor, and homage. Such penances are unstable and fleeting. A charity performed by a person in the mode of passion is characterized by the expectation of some return, or of gaining merit. 
The mode of passion and ignorance are like two sides of the same coin. The man caught in the vertex of these two modes is like a football who receives kicks from both. For example, the camel eats bramble even though it makes his mouth bleed; similarly, the passion and ignorance obsessed man indulges himself in sense gratification even though he suffers. Due to their spiritual ignorance and worldly desires, people in the mode of t_amo_ and _rajo _become an easy prey to swindlers in the garb of so called Saints, _Giannis, Priests, Ragees, Pathees_, etc. 
· _Aklee parhi kai bujheeyai aklee keechai daan_: One should read scriptures with intelligence, and then understand them; also one should give charity intelligently (sggs 1245). 
Rajsic person is always worried about himself and things his senses are attached to. Thus, he constantly burns himself alive in the fire of worries. 
(3) _Saatav _or Goodness: The mode of goodness is the subtlest and purer than the others. This mode brings one to the point of devotion or Bhakti. Further, the mode of goodness brings one greater enlightenment, a greater sense of happiness, and freedom from sinful reactions. 
The manifestation of the mode of goodness can be experienced when all nine gates of the body are illumined by the Divine Knowledge (as mentioned in the Gurbani, the nine gates are two years, two eyes, two nostrils, mouth, ****, and gentile). Which means that the manifestation of mode of goodness is experienced when all external senses, and the internal equipments are divinized by the presence of the Divine Knowledge. A _Saatvic_ person remains in the spheres of spiritual wisdom and ecstatic perceptions, imbued with virtue and purity of heart. 
There are many grades of beings in the mode of goodness. Some are merely good men, some are mixture of goodness with saintliness, and the others are living liberated (_Jivanmukta_). 
The foods dear to those who have made the _Saattav_ or mode of goodness the goal of their life are those that increase the duration of life, purify one's existence, and brings vitality, endurance, health, satisfaction, and happiness. These foods are juicy, mild, substantial, and agreeable to the body. Such foods include grains, fruits, vegetables, and milk.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 8, 2007)

A sacrifice done by a person situated in the mode of goodness is performed as a matter of duty, not for the expectation of any reward. For example, religious rituals performed in the Gurudwara or at one's home are in the mode of goodness if they are not performed with purpose of material benefit! _Bhagti_ in the mode of goodness is performed with great transcendental loving devotion, not with any expectation of material reward. Any charity given by the _Saattvic_ person is made for the sake of righteousness, without expecting anything in return, bestowed at proper place or time or person. 
The foregoing discussion makes it clear as to why people choose certain type of diet or perform certain actions while incarnated in this human form. It all depends on a personal choice of the mode of life an individual has chosen for himself. We reap what we sow. 
· _Eh maya jit hari visrai moh upjai bhaayu doojaa laya_ - Due the influence of this Maya, God is forgotten; worldly love is born; and the mortal gets attached to worldly pleasures (sggs 921). 
· _Par par thaake saant na aayee. Trisnaa jale sudh na kaayee__ - _By reading and reciting, mortals grow weary without obtaining peace; they are consumed by desires, of which they have no knowledge (sggs 120). 
· _Jehaa beejai so lunai karma sandraa khet_ - As man has planted, so does he harvest; such is the field of _karma_ or actions (sggs 134). 
· _Jo mai keeyaa so mai paya dos na deejai avar janaa_ - Whatever I did, for that I have suffered; I do not blame anyone else (sggs 433). 
'Bhakh' And 'Abhakh' 
The _Gurmat_ (_Shabad Giyan_ or Knowledge) has divided all foods into two categories: _Bhakh_ and _Abhakh_: _Bhakh_ means those foods which are conducive to spiritual progress, and to the contrary _Abhakh_ means those foods which are unconducive to spiritual progress. In other words, _Saatvic_ foods are _Bhakh_, and _Taamsic_ and _Raajsic_ foods are _Abhakh_. 
· _Jiyu kookar harkaayiyaa dhaavai dah dis jaaye. Lobhee jant na jaanayee BHAKH ABHAKH sabh khaaye_ - Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, _Bhakh_ and _Abhakh_ (sggs 50). 
Included in the _Abhakh_ category are foods such as egg, fish, meats, alcohol and other intoxicants, too hot, too sour, salty, pungent, harsh, burning, etc. The implication is that the _Taamsic_ and _Raajsic_ foods being undesirable cause misery, sorrows, disease, mental agitation, distress, a malignant effect on the body and the mind, and thus dulls all aspirations for spiritual growth. 
· _Duniyaa murdaar khurdanee gaaphal havaayi. Gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraayi_ - The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat (sggs 723). 
· _Kabir jiya ju maarahi jor kar kahte hahi ju halaal....._ - Kabir Ji says, you kill animals by cruelty and call it sanctified food! When the Lord calls for your account, what will your condition be? (sggs 1375) . 
· _Jeeya badhahu su dharam kar thaapahu adharam kahahu kat bhaayee_ - You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? (sggs 1103). 
· _Kabir Bhaang maashulee sura paan jo jo praanee khaahi. Teerath barat nem keeye te sabhai rasaatal jaahi_ - Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine — no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell (sggs 1377). 
· _Guru Pir Hama Ta Bhare, ja Murdar Na Khai_ - Guru or Peer only stand by those who abstain from eating "Murdaar" or dead (sggs 141). 
The desirable or _Bhakh_ foods include water, grains, fruits, vegetables, and milk products. Such wholesome and mild foods are ideal for maintaining healthy as well as fit body and mind; which, in turn, are very conducive to one's spiritual growth. 
· _Onee duniyaa tore bandhnaa ann paanee thoraa khaayaa_ - They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water (sggs 467). 
· _Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mahi amrit lon. Heraa rotee kaarne galaa ktaavai kayun_: Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice (_Khicharhee_) flavored with salt is excellent. Who would cut his throat (in his next life) to have meat of a killed animal with his bread? (sggs 1374). 
According to the _Gurmat_, the person who consumes foods belonging to _Abhakh_ category is no better than a mad dog. Now, the choice is ours: either we can eat _Abhakh_ and live like a mad dog, or we can be contented with _Bhakh_ and enjoy the intuitive peace and spiritual aspirations! Again, there is no mid-way in this context! 
· _Ras suyinaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas. Ras ghore ras sejaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas. eto ras sareer ke kai ghat Naam nivaas_ - The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood, the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of eating meat—such pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart (sggs 15)? 
The Gurmat offers us the right choice! If our greedy tongue craves for eating _Abhakh_, for example, the Gurbani's advice is to make the modesty (humility) and the fear of God the meat to eat. And, if our selfish tongue desires for intoxicants, the Gurbani asks us for making the True Naam and Self-realization the wine to drink. 
· _Gurh mande kar seel ghiyu saram maas aahaar_ - Make virtue your thin bread, civility your butter, and the modesty your meat to eat (sggs 553). 
· _Giyaan Gurh saalaah mande bhayu maas aahaar_ - Make spiritual wisdom your molasses, God's praise your bread, and God's fear your meat to eat (sggs 553). 
· _Karnee laahan Sat Gurh sach sraa kar saar_ - Let good deeds be your still, truth your molasses, and thus make the sublime wine of the True Name (sggs 553). 
· _Kayaa laahan aap mad amrit tis kee dhaar_ - Make your body the vat, and Self-realization the wine, then the nectar of the Naam will become the stream thereof (sggs 553). 
"Kill Your Ego, Not Other Beings": Says The Gurbani 
According to the _Gurmat_, one of the most noble qualities (_Shubh Gun_) a man need for linking with God is mercy, compassion or kindness (_Dayaa_) for all living entities; whether it be human, animals or birds. Without compassion, one cannot become a pure devotee; and without becoming a pure devotee, one cannot attain the _Shabad-Surti_ or God-consciousness. 
· _Man santokh sarab jeeya dayaa. In bidh barat sampooran Bhayaa...._: Let your mind be content, and be kind to all beings. In this way, your fast will be successful. Keep your wandering mind restrained in one place. Your mind and body shall become pure, chanting the Lord’s Name. The Supreme Lord is pervading amongst all (sggs 299). 
· _Athsath teerath sagal punn jeeya dayaa parvaan_: Be kind to all beings—this is more meritorious than bathing at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage and the giving of charity (sggs 136). 
The gesture of mercy and the act of killing another being are of opposing nature. Mercy denotes mental peace and contentment. To the contrary, killing for sense gratification signifies mental madness, greed, and selfishness. For example, one cannot eat meat without killing an animal or a bird. In order to kill for the momentary satisfaction of one's tongue, one has to be devoid of mercy. According to the _Gurmat_, if you are devoid of compassion, then you are devoid of _Dharma_; because, as Baabaa Nanak says, the _Dharma_ is the off-spring of _Dayaa_! 
· _Dhaul Dharama Dayaa kaa poot_: The bull of Dharma is the off-spring of Dayaa (sggs 3)! 
· _Mani santokh sarab jeea dayaa_: Let your mind be content, and be kind to all beings (sggs 299). 
The qualification of a true devotee or a _Gurmukh_ is that he will never put others into anxiety. On the other hand, the qualification of a sense-driven individual (bogus devotee or a _Manmukh_) is that he will never hesitate to put others into anxiety. The reason being so is that a _Gurmukh_ is always busy killing his ego, while a _Manmukh_ is always occupied hurting or killing other beings! 
· _Aap marai avraa nah maarai_: Kill your ego, do not kill other beings (sggs 1128). 
· _Mazan teg bar khoon kas bedreg. Tura neez khoo charakh rezad bah teg_: Do not cut somebody's neck with knife; because Almighty's knife will cut your neck someday (Zafarnaamaa, Paatshaahee 10). 
· _Jeea badhahu su dharam kari thaapahu adharam kahahu kat bhaaee. Aapas kayu munivar kari thaapahu kaa kayu kahau kasaaee_: You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? (sggs 1103). 
What is a lion's diet? The lion kills other beings and then consumes their flash and blood! Under the influence of sense-inclined mind, some argue that since the Guru has given us the name "Singh" (meaning lion), it's alright to kill other beings for the purpose one's eating pleasures. But, the _Gurmat's_ position is totally to the contrary! Like other true scriptures, the Gurbani does not teach cruelty and plundering; It only teaches us to kill our ego, not other beings. Accordingly, the Gurbani thunders that the man who feeds like a lion, is to be known the "god of thieves"! 
· _Singhch bhojan jo nar jaanai. Aise hee thag deyu bakhaanai_: That man who feeds like a lion, is called the god of thieves (sggs 485). 
Effects Of Diet On Human Behavior 
The mind depends on the food for its formation. The food we take in is transformed in three different ways: the gross or the heaviest portion of it becomes the excrement; that of medium density is transformed into flesh; and the finest portion goes to form the mind. Also, as discussed before, the three different mental temperaments — _Sattva, Rajas and Tamas_ — were the result of three different kinds of food. Accordingly, the Gurbani declares that the diet of a _Sattvic_ or a spiritual person — the truest of true — consists of grain and water. 
· _Onee duniyaa tore bandhnaa ann paanee thoraa khaayaa_ - They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water (sggs 467). 
Thus, the quality of one's actions, attitudes and behavior depends on the quality of his mind. Since the mind is made of food, the quality of one's mind is significantly influenced by the quality of the food he consumed. In other words, the mind feeds on the food consumed. Therefore, in order to keep pure mind, the food has to be kept pure!


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 8, 2007)

The _Raajsic_ and _Taamsic_ diet excite the mind. For example, mark the behavior or difference in nature of a flesh eating animal and a vegetation eating animal! Also, different kinds of foods produce different effects in different parts of the brain. Intoxicants, tea, coffee, and spicy and sour foods, for example, excite emotions and passions, and weaken the immune system. _Naam Simran _is impossible with such restless and corrupt mind. To the contrary, the _Saatvic_ diet calms the mind; hence very conducive for _Naam Simran_. 
· _Alu malu khaayee sir chhaayee paayee. Moorakh andhai pat gvaayee_ - One who eats filth corrupts his mind — the blind fool loses his honor (sggs 467). 
· _Jit peetai mati door hoyi baral pavai vich aayi. Apnaa paraayaa na pchhanayee khasmahu dhakke khaayi. Jit peetai khasam visrai dargah milai sjaayi. jhoothaa mad mool na peechayee je kaa paar vassayi _- By drinking, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind; he cannot distinguish between his own and others' — he is struck down by his Lord. By drinking, he forgets his Lord, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord. Don't drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power (sggs 554). 
The corruption of mind and physical senses go together. According to the scriptures, the first limb of the physical body to go out of control is tongue, followed by the part of genital. When the tongue is out of control, the genital (i.e., the urge for sex or lust) also goes out of control. _Raajsic_ and _Taamsic_ diet is very conducive for exciting the genital part. When lust remains unfulfilled it manifests into anger. As a result, man looses control over mind and body, and behaves as an animal. In this heinous condition, man has no possibility of becoming a _Bhagta (_pure devotee). The Gurbani asserts that: 
· _Mailaa khaai phir mail vadhaaye manmukh mail dukh paavaniaa _- Eating filth, the self-willed manmukhs become even more filthy. Because of their filth, they suffer in pain. (sggs 121). 
· _Jihvaa indree ek suyaayu_ - The tongue and the sex organs each seek to taste (sggs 153). 
· _Jihvaa indree saad lobhaanaa. Pasoo bhaye nahee mitai neesaanaa_ - You are lured by the tastes of the tongue and sex organs. You have become a beast; this sign cannot be erased (sggs 903). 
· _Nanak kaam krodh kinai na paayo pusho giaanee jaaye_ - Nanak, by lust and anger, no one has ever attained God. Go and ask any divine (sggs 551). 
· _Urajh rahio indree ras prerio bikhai thagayuree khaavat he_ - Entanglement in the lures of sensual pleasures is like eating poisonous drugs (sggs 821). 
As revealed in the Gurbani, from cradle to grave, a sense-blind man goes through 10 stages of wasting his life. Out of these 10 stages, in one stage man runs after only food and drinks. As a result, in the immediate next stage his mind becomes mad and blind in his lust. Baabaa Nanak puts it so beautifully as follows: 
· _Panjve khaan peevan kee dhaat _- In the fifth stage, man runs after food and drinks (sggs 137). 
· _Chhivai kaam na poochhai jaatt_ - In the sixth stage, he does not even inquires a woman's caste in his urge for lust! (sggs 137) 
Claiming To Be Equal To The Master 
Essentially, there are two kinds of living beings: (a) liberated souls, and (b) conditioned souls. Liberated souls are those who have realized the Self, and, hence, have freed themselves from the sense-slavery. By controlling their senses, they have ascended themselves to be situated in the Pure Consciousness. 
Conditioned souls are those whose senses, mind, intellect, and consciousness are contaminated by this mundane world or Maya. In other words, conditioned souls try to dominate the material nature and, hence, become subjected to its effects (i.e., lust, anger, greed, attachment, false ego, suffering from repeated birth and death, etc.). 
· _Ih tan maya pahiya piaare leetra lab rangaaye_ - This body fabric is conditioned by Maya, O beloved, this cloth is dyed in greed (sggs 721). 
A conditioned soul has four kinds of defects: 1) he has propensity to cheat others; 2) he is illusioned by Maya or ignorance, consequently, he does not know his true position in relation to God; he has taken the body as his real Self; as a result, he commits sins to fulfill the ever ending demands of his physical body; 3) his senses are contaminated; consequently, he cannot gain Self-knowledge as imperfect senses are unsuitable to do so; and 4) due to such conditioning, he commits mistakes. 
The scriptures provide us with an estimate of such conditioned souls in our human society. The scriptures also reveal to us that those individuals who truly abide Lord's name in their mind are very rare. Out of thousands and millions, one may endeavor for spiritual attainment, of those who have achieved spiritual attainment, hardly one knows Reality in Truth. This means that about 99.9 percent people are simply living in a state of mental delusion. This also means that only less than 0.1 percent people are truly interested in Transcendental Knowledge! 
· _Jan Nanak kotan mai kou bhajan ram ko pave__ - _O servant Nanak, amongst millions there is hardly any mortal, who attains the Lord's meditation (sggs 219). 
· _Kotan mai Nanak kou narain jih cheet__ - _Rare is the one amongst millions, who enshrines the Lord in his mind, O Nanak (sggs 1427). 
· _Manushyaanaamam sahasreshu kashchid yatati siddhaye, yatataam api siddgaanaamam kashchin maamam vetti tattvatah_ - Among thousands of men, one strives for spiritual perfection; and, among the blessed true seekers that assduously try to reach Me, hardly one knows Me in fact (Geeta 7-3). 
There are four principles common to human beings and animals. Animals eat, sleep, defend and mate. Similarly, about 99.9 percent of men are also merely engaged in these animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. In this abominable condition, mortals claim to be equal to Spiritual Masters or God. In such a contaminated state of the senses-mind-intellect, an individual begins to logic that: "If the Master ate Abhakh, what's wrong me eating it", or "if the Master did this, what's wrong me doing it". This is a heinous show of false ego and spiritual ignorance at its best! If a crow tries to be equal to a swan, he is certain to make fool of himself! 
· _Khasmai kare braabaree phir gairat andar paayi_ - If one claims to be equal to his Master, he earns his Master’s displeasure (sggs 474). 
· _Satigur kee reesai hor kach pich bolde se koorhiaar koorhe jharhi parheeai....._: Jealously emulating the True Guru, some others may speak nonsense, but the false are destroyed by their falsehood. Deep within them is one thing, and in their mouths is another; they suck in the poison of Maya, and then they painfully waste away (sggs 304). 
· _Hansa vekh trandiyaa baggaan bhi aayaa chyu. Dub muye bag bapure sir tal upper payu_ - Seeing the swans swimming, the herons wanted to do it too. But the poor herons drowned and died, and floated with their heads down and their feet up (sggs 585). 
· _Hansaa vich bethaa bag na banayee nit baithaa machhee no taar laave_ - Sitting among the swans, the crane does not become one of them; sitting there, he keeps staring at the fish (sggs 960). 
· _Sarvar andar heeraa motee so hansaa kaa khaanaa. Bagulaa kag na rahayee sarvar je hovai ati siaanaa_ - The diamonds are in this lake; they are the food of the swans. The cranes and the ravens may be very wise, but they do not remain in this lake. They do not find their food there; their food is different (sggs 956). 
Since the senses of a Spiritual Master are all divine; they are ever in a state of perfect control and harmony. They have no material desires other than serving the Lord. During their stay on this earth, whatever they do is for the Divine Cause only, not to gratify their personal senses or desires. While the sense infatuated mortals (over 99.9%) eat or perform actions to simply gratify their senses and material desires. To justify our wicket sense tendencies, we say "If the Guru did it, I can do it too". However, our limited senses and mind as well as our false ego never let us inquire into a basic question: have we lifted ourselves to the Divine Consciousness of the Master? 
The Spiritual Master is beyond the effects of tripple-qualitied Maya. His actions are selfless. As such, he only wants to help embodied souls for final redemption. That's his job. By doing this job, as the Gurbani says, sometime the Master/Lord can kill a being and then revive. Can we do that? The answer is no. The reason being is that majority of us belong to the 99.9 percent category, having our soul covered with rubbish of limited senses, limited mind, and inflated ego! 
· _Satgur meraa maar jivaalai_ - My True Guru Himself slays and then revives (sggs 1142). 
· _Aape maare jeevaale aape tis no til na tamaayee _- The Lord Homself slays and himself revives, he does not have an iota of averice (sggs 912). 
To justify _Abhakh_ diet, the _Abhakh_ eaters often quote the following verse of Baabaa Nanak: "_Maas__ maas kari moorakh jhagre_...: The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.... (sggs 1289). 
Firstly, have we raised our consciousness to the level of Baabaa Nanak? If someone has become Baabaa Nanak (that is, _Braham Giani_), then for him there is no questions or answers, birth or death, light or darkness, good or bad, sin or virtues, this or that; for he has become living liberated (_Jeevan Mukta_). If not, then one needs every help he can get to reach to the mental state of Baabaa Nanak! Otherwise _Naam Simran_, meditation, _Gurmantra_, selfless _Sevaa_, devotion or _Bhagti_, scriptural study, religion, _Dharma_, _Kirtan, Satsang_, etc., has no meaning! 
Secondly, as repeatedly declared in the Gurbani, the only cause of _Jeeva's_ bondage is enjoyment for sense gratification. The Guru who has declared this countless times in the Gurbani, how the same Guru can encourage _Jeevas_ to enjoy sense pleasures? He cannot, because he is born to redeem the humanity from their bondage, not other way around! A true Guru, thus, cannot contradict himself. All contradictions exist in our sense infatuated consciousness. If any Shabad or verse is viewed esoterically in line with the spirit of the entire SGGS, one will not see any confusion or problem there. 
The name 'Sikh' is not a social status or a title; it's a state one has to reach. And, as repeatedly declared in the Gurbani, one cannot reach there with affinity for sense gratification. Therefore, if one is a true 'Sikh' (i.e., spiritual seeker), then how he or she can even think of sense gratification in the first place? Knowing that spirituality and sense gratification are of opposing nature, now, how in the world a noble spiritual Master and a Teacher like Baabaa Nanak can encourage any 'Sikh' to engage in sense gratification? It is the instinctive or the desire-mind which has been swayed by the life's sensuousness entertains the exoteric meanings of the scriptural statements. In fact we are urged not once, but several thousands of times in the Gurbani to kill this desire-mind which entertains the thoughts of sense gratification! If we don't, then we cannot realize our Spiritual Nature. 
Thirdly, if we read the rest of the _Shabad_ from which this verse is quoted, then we will realize that the whole _Shabad_ was spoken to the hypocritical _Pandits_ (_Pujaarees_), who pretended to be pure on the outside, but were impure on the inside. In their prejudices and false pride, these _Pujaarees_ usually pretend of maintaining superficial cleanliless by, for example, protecting their body, kitchen or food from being touched by anybody else. 
The Gurbani tells us that the taste of the elixir of Lord's Name and the other taste of worldly objects are of the opposing nature. Accordingly, no true Spiritual Master will ever encourage his disciples to engage in consuming _Abhakh_ which is unconducive to spiritual progress. It is a shear jealousy that leads an immature and unawakened _Jeeva_ to act like being equal to the Master. Perhaps not knowing that the jealousy only retards spiritual progress in the seeker! Baabaa Nanak reveals the Truth to us as follows: 
· _Satigur kee reesai hori kachu pichu bolde se koorhiyaa koorhe jharhi parheeyai. Onaa andar hor mukh hor hai bikh maya no jhakhi marde karheeyai_: Jealously emulating the True Guru, some others may speak of good and bad, but the false are destroyed by their falsehood. Deep within them is one thing, and in their mouths is another; they suck in the poison of Maya, and then they painfully waste away (sggs 304). 
· _Kali hoee kute muhee khaaj hoyaa murdaar_ - In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting dead bodies for food (sggs 1242). 
· _Ras suyinaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas. Ras ghore ras sejaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas. eto ras sareer ke kai ghat Naam nivaas_ - The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood, the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of eating meat—such pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart (sggs 15)? 
In the following Shabad, Baabaa Nanak gives us the characteristics of this age of Kal Yuga we are living in. In this Shabad, Baabaa Nanak makes it very clear as to who in Kal Yuga eat meat of killed animals, and why they eat it! Baabaa Nanak declares that in this age of ignorance, people have mouth like that of a "dog", and, thereby, they eat dead animals for food as the dog eats dead carcasses! Why? Because people are devoid of _Dharma_ and _Vichaar_ (spiritual or inner reflections or inquiry); consequently, we bark only falsehood! 
· SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: _Kali hoyee kutte muhee khaaj hoyaa murdaar. Koorh boli boli bhayukanaa chookaa dharam beechaar. Jin jeevandiyaa pati nahee muyiaa mandee soi....._: In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat dead animals for food. They bark and speak, telling only lies; Dharma and Vichaar have left them. Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die. Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: Women are made weak (suppressed by men), and men have become their captor or Sayyaad (Sayyaad means a hunter who captures the Bulbul birds and encages them). Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food. Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her. O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true || 2 || (sggs 1242). 
· SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: _Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet_: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you can have pure consciousness! (sggs 140). 
· _Jayu sabh mahi ek Khudaai kahat hau tau kiyon murgee maarai. Mullaan kahahu niaau Khudaaee. Tere mann kaa bharam na jaaee_: You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? O Mullah, tell me: is this God’s Justice? The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled (sggs 1350). 
· _Sarjeeu kaatahi nirjeeu poojahi ant kaal kau bhaaree_: You kill living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you will suffer in terrible pain (sggs 332). 
Clearly, the reason people label gurus for eating "_Abhakh_" is: (a) they themselves are addicted to consuming "_Abhakh_", and (b) they lack understanding of the Divine Word. In truth, when it comes to consuming _Abhakh_, the Gurbani teaches us in a strong language to stop living a life of a "dog", and start living a life of a _Gurmukh_ (spiritual being). To this end, in the following Shabads, we are told to make "modesty" and the "Love for God" the "dish of meat". This is declared by the Gurbani to be the "true food" of a spiritual seeker! How wonderful! 
· _Kali kalvaalee kaam mad manooyaa peevanhaar......_: The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the vessel, filled with the wine of sex; the mind is the drinker. Anger is the cup, filled with emotional attachment; egotism is the bartender. Drinking too much in the company of falsehood and greed, one is ruined. So let good deeds be your distillery, and let Truth be the molasses you ferment; make the most excellent wine of Truth. Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the dish of meat. By becoming a Gurmukh, these are obtained, O Nanak; consuming them, evil and corruption depart (sggs 553). 
· _Kaayaa laahani aap mad majlas trisnaa dhaat......._: The body is the bottle, self-conceit is the wine, and desire is the company of drinking buddies. The glass of the mind’s longing is filled to overflowing with falsehood; the Messenger of Death is the bartender. Drinking in this wine, O Nanak, one takes on countless vices and corruption. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, and the Praise of God your bread; let the Love of God be the dish of meat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support. || 2 || If the human body is the pitcher, and Self-realization is the wine, then the Ambrosial Nectar streams down. Joining the Sat Sangat, the glass of the Lord’s Love is filled with this Ambrosial Nectar; drinking it in, one’s evil and corruption are eradicated (sggs 553). 
· _Jo dhoojai bhaae saakuth kaamunaa arathh dhurugu(n)dhh suraevudhae so nihuful subh agiaan_: The faithless cynics in their love of duality and sensual desires, harbor foul-smelling urges. They are totally useless and ignorant (sggs 734). 
However, unfortunately, in order to gratify corrupt senses and deluded mind, the material seekers do not hesitate to blame, charge or label even gurus for things they never did! We are "_Kache_" (unripe or false); and in this state of "_Kach Nikach_" (falsest of the false) we eat and drink _Abhakh_ (unnatural diet) and label our gurus for doing the same. This is how the man's corrupt and stubborn passion for sensuousness is! The Gurbani reveals to us that this sense-slavery cannot stop until one abides in the _Naam_. 
· _Bedu parhe mukhi meethee baanee. Jeeaan kuhat na sangai praanee_: With his mouth, he recites the scriptures in sweet musical measures, and yet he does not hesitate to take the lives of others (sggs 201). 
· _Rojaa dharai manaavai Alahu suaadati jeea sanghaarai. Aapaa dekhi avar nahee dekhai kaahe kayu jhakh maarai_: You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure. You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? (sggs 483). 
· _Deesut maas n khaae bilaaee. Mehaa kusaab shhuree satt paaee. Kurunehaar prubh hirudhai voot(h)aa. Faathhee mushhulee kaa jaalaa thoottaa_: The cat sees the meat, but does not eat it, and the great butcher throws away his knife; the Lord abides in the heart; the net holding the fish breaks apart (sggs 898). 
We can become pure on the inside by following the injunctions of the scriptures; which include many regulations. If one has lifted himself to the transcendental state of Baabaa Nanak, he is _Jeevan Mukata_; thereby none of the regulations apply to him. Otherwise, the underlying message of the following verses applies to rest of us. 
· _Jo priyaa maane tin kee reesaa. Koore moorakh kee haatheesaa_ - The mortal competes with those who have been accepted by the Beloved Lord. This is how stubborn the false fool is (sggs 738). 
· _Hari bin kashu na lagayee bhagtan kayu meethaa. Aan suaad sabh feekiyaa kari nirnayu deethaa_ - Nothing seems sweet to His devotees, except the Lord. All other tastes are bland and insipid; I have tested them and seen them (sggs 708).


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 8, 2007)

On Vedas And Animal Sacrifice 
The only reason this section is included herein is that many Sikhs and otherwise who advocate non_-Sattvic_ or _Abhakh_ diet cite example of _Hindu Vedic_ rituals of animal sacrifice. This sort of citing only indicates the lack of understanding of scriptures on the part of those who cite such examples in this context. Although the purpose of this section is not to expound on Vedas, however, apparently as some people are misusing and misinterpreting their teachings, it does warrant some clarification as to the position of Vedic scriptures in this context. 
As previously stated, all beings are in the three modes of material nature namely, goodness, passion, and ignorance. As the purpose of Gurbani is to redeem all men, not just a few selected Sikhs; similarly, the purpose of _Vedic_ scriptures is also to reclaim all men, not only a few selected ones. Therefore, to redeem all conditioned souls, there are eighteen _Puraanas_. Out of these eighteen _Puraanas_, six of them are meant for those in the mode of goodness, six of them are meant for those in the mode of passion, and the remaining six of them are meant for persons still in the mode of ignorance. Looking at the two extreme spectrums, for example, the _Padam Puraana_ is written for persons in the mode of goodness, and the _Maarkandeya Puraana_ is written for persons in the mode of ignorance. The description of sacrifice in which a goat may be sacrificed in the presence of the goddess _Kaalee_ is made in the _Maarkandeya Puraana. _But, as stated above, this Puraana is only meant for people deeply stuck in the mode of ignorance (spiritually blind)! 
Thus, according to the Vedic scriptures, slaughtering or sacrificing animals is the act in the mode of utter ignorance! While performing the act of animal-sacrifice, there are some _Mantras_ that need be chanted. If the Pujaaree (priest or Pandit) and the person performing the sacrifice know the true meaning of these _Mantras,_ they will never ever slaughter or sacrifice any animal in their life. The problem is: both Pandit and worshipper do not have the spiritual wisdom needed to realize the true meaning of these _Mantras;_ it is like blind leading blind. In this context, here is a very brief primer by one of the great Vedantists, Bhaktivedaantaa Swami Prabhupaad. One may need to read it a few times to realize the underlying meaning. Ponder it, for it tells about the true teachings of the scriptures. 
"It is very difficult for one to give up his attachments all at once. If one is addicted to meat-eating and is suddenly told that he must not eat meat, he can not do so. If one is attached to drinking liquor and suddenly told that the liquor is no good, he can not accept this advice. Therefore in _Paraanas_ we find certain instructions that say in essence, "All right, if you want to eat meat, just worship the goddess _Kaali _and sacrifice a goat for her. Only then you can eat meat. You cannot eat meat just by purchasing it from the butcher shop. No, there must be sacrifice or restriction." In order to sacrifice a goat to the goddess _Kaali_, one must make arrangements for a certain date and utilize certain paraphernalia. That type of _Pujaa_, or worship, is allowed on the night of the dark moon, which means once a month. There are also certain _mantraas _to be chanted when the goat is being sacrificed. The goat is told, "Your life is being sacrificed before the goddess Kaali; you will therefore be immediately promoted to human form"... The mantraa also says, "You have the right to kill this man who is sacrificing you." The word maamsa (in mantraas) indicates that in his next birth the goat will eat the flesh of the man who is presently sacrificing him. This in itself should bring the goat-eater to his senses. He should consider, "Why am I eating this flesh? Why am I doing this? I will have to repay with my own flesh in another life . "The whole idea is to discourage one from eating meat."
The Gurbani also confirms as follows: _Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mahi amrit lon. Heraa rotee kaarne galaa ktaavai kayun_: Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice (_Khicharhee_) flavored with salt is excellent. Who would cut his throat (in his next life) to have meat of a killed animal with his bread? (sggs 1374). 
Bhai Gurdaas, the ascriber of SGGS, also says in this context: _Seeh pajooti Bakkari, maradi hoie harh harh hassi, Ak Dhatura khadian kuh kuh khal ukhal vinassi, Maas Khan gal wad ke, haal tinada kaun hovassi_ -- Meaning, the goat says, "I was eating Akk and Dhaturar plants (unwanted weed plants) for whole of my life, to which nobody else likes to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, what will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat? (Vaar 25-7) . 
Now, if one thinks with intuitively balanced mind, he will understand that the act of animal sacrifice mentioned in the Vedic scriptures is not meant for encouraging killing and flesh eating, rather, it is meant for restricting and discouraging one from doing so. In fact, according to the Hindu scriptures, the Lord is confirmed to advocate _Bhakh_ diet. For example, the Lord says: "If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, I will accept it" (Gita 9-26). Here the Lord did not say: "Offer me meat and wine"! 
· "When the food is pure, the whole nature becomes pure; when the nature becomes pure, the memory becomes firm; and when a man is in possession of a firm memory, all the ties are severed" (Veda, Chhandogya Upnishad, VII-xxvi.2). 
Along with traditions of the Masters, the Lord in Bible also advocates _Sattvic_ diet. Briefly, a few verses from the Bible are cited herein. "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood there of, shall ye not eat" (Genesis 9:4). In Isaiah (1:5), the Bible states: "Saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of arms, and fat of fed beasts, or of lambs, or of he-goats. When ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: ye, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear, for your hands are full of blood." Particularly about killing cows, this is what the Bible has to say: "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man" (Isaiah 66:3). 
Muslim scripture_ Quraan_ also indicates that the ideal situation is pure _Sattvic_ diet. In Sura 2-22, it states: "Who has made the earth your couch, and the havens your canopy; and sent down rain from the sky; and brought forth therewith fruits as your food for your sustenance; then do not set up rivals to God when ye know (the truth)." In Sura 2-25, the Q_uraan_ states: "And give glad tidings to those who believe and do good works, that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruits thereof, thay say : This is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance; there for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide". In fact, to a spiritually wise, _Quraan_ makes it very clear "It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches God: it is your piety or devotion that reaches Him (Sura XXII-37). 
As we can see, there is no problems with the scriptures. All problems are with majority of us (99.9 percent category); who, in spiritual blindness, claim to be equal to Guru-God. By doing so, we have either forgotten or corrupted the sublime essence of the teachings of the world Masters. Also in the West, where there is tremendous emphasis on unnatural or _Abhakh_ diet, the greed of multi-national corporations, special interest groups and their lobbyists have totally corrupted the essence of the teachings of their Masters. 
The Higher Taste: Moving From Animal To Divine Consciousness 
Perhaps now one can appreciate as to why we are so much discouraged by the scriptures and spiritual beings from eating unnatural or _Abhakh_ diet: it adds to our _Kaarmic_ debt (_Lekhaa_). If there is a cause, there is an effect. For every _Karma_ or activity (cause), there is a re-action or result (effect). Every debt must be paid off by the doer sooner or later. This is the law that brings back the results of one's actions to him. There is no escape from it. That's why Kabeer Saahib says: _Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mahi amrit lon. Heraa rotee kaarne galaa ktaavai kayun_: Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice (_Khicharhee_) flavored with salt is excellent. Who would cut his throat (in his next life) to have meat with his bread? (sggs 1374). 
· _Kirat payiaa na metai koyi_: Past actions cannot be erased (sggs 154). 
The job of the spiritual masters and the scriptures is to discourage us from accumulating more_ Kaarmic_ debt, not other way around! The departure of sense-slavery makes room for inner purity. Once the seeker has developed his inner-purity, the mind grows richer in its receptivity, alertness, comprehension, and in its power of apprehension. Such a mind becomes fit for plunging into the study of scriptures, and thereby, appreciating the Higher taste of Lord's Name. Through the sincere practice of attaching our attention to the Higher taste, one can certainly detach from the lower tastes. 
If one lives by a constant thought-current as "I am the Self", he can not be lured or attracted by the sense objects. On the contrary, if one's continuous memory is "I am the flesh or matter", he is merely a slave of his senses. In such a conditioned stage, all he can think of is material objects such as foods, sleep, wine, lust, etc. 
· _Raini gavaayee soyi kai divis gavaayiyaa khaayi. Heere jaisaa janam hai kayudee badle jaayi_ - The nights are wasted sleeping, and the days are wasted eating. Human life is such a precious jewel, but it is being lost in exchange for a mere shell (sggs 156). 
The purpose of life is not to meditate on relishes, drinks, etc. According to the Gurbani, the only purpose of this precious human life is to re-establish our lost relationship with our True Nature, Pure Consciousness. The journey to realize this goal begins at the mode of goodness (_Sato Guna_). Accordingly, the mode of goodness is not an end by itself; it is just the beginning. Hence, the aim should be to move upward to this more uplifting quality of the material nature. Uncondusive diet, actions, habits, tendencies and desires related to _Raajsic_ and _Taamsic_ qualities will not aid in achieving this goal. If one keeps gratifying senses and hope to realize God, he is in utter illusion. 
The level of intelligence of an utterly foolish person is generally compared with that of a donkey. Poor donkey! For example, if some one acts in foolishness, he takes the risk of being called "_Gadhaa_" or "_Khota_a" (donkey). Also, if a child behaves or acts foolishly, parents or teachers may call him "_Gadhaa_" or "_Khotaa_" to make the point. It is interesting to note that, if you place liquor in front of a donkey, he will smell it but walk away without tasting it! Similarly, if the same donkey is offered a meat dish, again, he will smell it but walk away without tasting it! However, the man, who thinks himself to be the most intelligent, will consume both! 
According to the Gurbani, cruelty is one of the four rivers of fires. Falling into it, one is sure to get burnt. Materialistic living and cruelty go hand-in-hand. The reason a cruel person practices cruelty or violence to others is that he does not see One God in all _Jeevas_ or beings. Under the spell of false ego or spiritual ignorance, he has no sense of Oneness. 
· _Hansu het lobh kop chaare nadiaa agg. Pavahi dajhai Nanakaa tareeai karmee lagg_: Cruelty, material attachment, greed and anger are the four rivers of fire. Falling into them, one is burned, O Nanak! One is saved only by holding tight to good deeds (sggs 147). 
· _Kubudhi dummnee kudayaa kasaain par nindaa ghat choohree muthee krodh chandaal_: False-mindedness is the drummer-woman; cruelty is the butcheress; slander of others in one's heart is the cleaning-woman, and deceitful anger is the outcast-woman (sggs 91). 
In fact, according to the Gurbani, there is no difference between killing of an animal and killing of a spiritual person and a daughter; as well as accepting food from an evil doer. Such person, according to the Gurbani, becomes subjected to leprosy of curses, criticism, and egotism. Further, the Gurbani identifies the sense of cruelty and unfeeling to the _Jammdoot_ (the messenger of death). Clearly, by practicing cruelty to other beings, one can not lift himself to the mode of goodness; which is the beginning point of devotion (_Bhagti_)! 
· _Brahman kailee ghaat kanjkaa anchaaree kaa dhaan. Phittak phittak kor badeeaa sadaa sadaa abhimaan_ - He who kills a spiritual person, a cow and a daughter, and accepts the food of an evil person, he is cursed with the leprosy of curses and criticism; he is forever and ever to be filled with egotistical pride (sggs 1413). 
· _Bin prabh koyi na raakhanhaar mahaa bikat jam bhayaa_ - Without God, there is no saving grace; the Messenger of Death is cruel and unfeeling (sggs 47). 
In human society, there are basically two types of diseases. The main disease is spiritual (disease of soul), and the other pertains to the body (bodily diseases). _Saatvic_ diet is one of the means that can help cure the disease of the soul. 
The _Bhagti-Yoga_ involves many principles which need to be adhered to. One of the principles involves following strict _Saatvic _diet. The whole process of _Yoga_ (union with God) is to purify us. Eating habits as to how much and what to eat is an integral part of this purification. Therefore, to become a spiritual man, one needs not to give up eating, but he has to adjust his eating habits. 
However, one must extremely be alert and vigilant. If one adheres to a S_aatvic_ diet at its highest standard, but if he stops right there without following other principles of _Bhagti_, and if he is devoid of Name, then his spiritual progress is sure to stop right there as well. For this reason, the _Saatvic _diet should not be considered an end by itself, but an indispensable means to the end. This is what the Masters has tried to explain in the Gurbani to different people, in different circumstances, different environment, at different occasions and times. Unfortunately, the Masters have to use our limited language to explain the Unlimited Truth. Without intuitive reasoning and discrimination, one is subject to confusion and ambiguity about the sublime essence of the teaching of the Masters. 
Once we advance in spirituality, bad habits will gradually go away. This is a sure process. Where there is a light, darkness can not and will not stay there. Once we develop a Higher taste of God consciousness, the other tastes of mundane objects will have no appeal to us. Without the Higher taste, we will be subjected to sense-salvery (i.e., animal consciousness). 
· _Rasnaa Hari ras chaakh muye jeeyo an ras saad gavaaye_ - Taste the sublime essence of the Lord with your tongue, my dear, and renounce the pleasures of other tastes (sggs 246). 
· _Ram ras peeyaa re. Jih ras bisar gaye ras or_ - I drink in the sublime essence of the Lord. With the taste of this essence, I have forgotten all other tastes (sggs 337). 
· _Raaraa ras niras kar jaaniyaa. Hoyi niras su ras pahichaaniyaa. Ih ras chhade oh ras aavaa. Oh ras peeyaa ih ras nahee bhaavaa_ - I have found worldly tastes to be tasteless. Becoming tasteless, I have realized that spiritual taste. Abandoning these worldly tastes, I have found that spiritual taste. Drinking in that (Higher) taste, this taste of mundane objects is no longer pleasing (sggs 342). 
· _Ann ras chookai Hri ras man vasaaye_ - One forgets other relishes when he enshrines God's name in his mind (sggs 115). 
The spiritual guides have asserted that the physical health, mental harmony, and all-round happiness depend primarily upon one's inner thought-habits and not upon his outer luxury or pleasures. Therefore, the basic question to ask oneself is: Can I attain self-improvement and spiritual-unfoldment by a non-_saatvic_ frame of mind? The Gurbani provides us with an authoritative answer: No! Baabaa Nanak says: 
· _Ras suyinaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas. Ras ghore ras sejaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas. eto ras sareer ke kai ghat Naam nivaas_ - The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood, the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of eating meat—such pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart (sggs 15)? 

Brothers and sisters - I hope you will all find this enlightening.


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## kds1980 (Jan 8, 2007)

ek musafir ji could you please show me a full shabad in guru granth sahib
which clearly says not to eat meat.all the above you have posted  are single lines
from different shabads.to understand guru granth sahib one has to read
full shabad to understand the essence of gurbani.if we all start using single lines from guru granth sahib then we will end nowhere.majority of single lines you have posted in suppot of vegetarianism has nothing to do with the issue of diet they are already being discussed in the following essay

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

if you are really interested in the topic of veg and non veg then please read the entire debate in the above link.

btw if by using single lines someone can prove that guru granth sahib says not to eat meat then by using single line i can also prove that eating buttered bread is also wrong according to guru granth sahib.

ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥ 
जिना खाधी चोपड़ी घणे सहनिगे दुख ॥२८॥ 
jinaa khaaDhee choprhee ghanay sehnigay dukh. ||28|| 
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||sggs1379


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## Lionchild (Jan 8, 2007)

S|kH

It's a real shame that this thread was set up, it has divided even more of us, and has resulted in allot of counterproductive posts. In the future, perhaps all of us on SPN will reconsider making these types of threads. It does not help anyone. Thanks.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 9, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> ek musafir ji could you please show me a full shabad in guru granth sahib





kds1980 said:


> which clearly says not to eat meat.all the above you have posted are single lines
> from different shabads.to understand guru granth sahib one has to read
> full shabad to understand the essence of gurbani.if we all start using single lines from guru granth sahib then we will end nowhere.majority of single lines you have posted in suppot of vegetarianism has nothing to do with the issue of diet they are already being discussed in the following essay
> 
> ...




Some great points KDS.

Ehk Musafir sounds like a chap called Hari Singh on Sikhi Wiki whom colleagues of mine defeated in a debate over the issue of taking one liners from Bani and proclaiming it as the divine truth. This is something Brahmanistic Sant-Mat organisation like GNNSJ etc employ.............it is really sad they should resort to such dire tactics, and make Bani look like a cheap A-la-carte menu. The systematic dismemberment of the Angs from these groups is deplorable.:down: 

The Sant-Mat propaganda  posted by Ekh Musafir Ajnabi start with:

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; 
they eat dead animals for food. They bark and speak, telling only lies; 
Dharma and Vichaar have left them. Those who have no honor while alive, 
will have an evil reputation after they die (sggs 1242).

This is clearly a mistranslation. There is no mention of "dead animals":

Again, let us put this into context: 
_salok mehlaa 1._
_kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar._
_koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar._ 
_jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay._ 
_likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay._
_Shalok, First Mehl:_ 
_In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food._
_They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them._
_Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die._
_Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass._
*Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji* ​
At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for *people who behave like dogs.* The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive. 
The second point to note is the mistranslation. *Murdaar is not the word for meat.* Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar. 

This Sant-Mat propaganda starts with this clear lie...........so how do we trust the rest of it? A real shame......mods take note.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 9, 2007)

Randip Singh ji,

Many thanks for your kind insults. 
Wow! I have read your articles with great interest. You are gem among the Sikh community. How can Sikhs go astray when we have such a knowledgeable genius among us. I apologize for the anguish I may have caused you as it seems that this particular topic is so close to your heart. Why should it not be you have spent nearly 5 months compiling it. 

I am now fully convinced that meat is not forbidden in Sikh religion. 

Since you have done so much research into this topic. Perhaps you could now enlighten me as to in how many verses, tukan's etc our gurus have said that you can eat meat and that eating meat will not prohibit you from achieving unity with god. It will save me a lot of hassle.

Again apologies for mis-spelling your good name Randip = Light,  Ranjit = victory. But light does have a downside to its characteristics, it harbours’’ darkness at its feet.

I look forward to your offerings


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 9, 2007)

Arvind said:


> In this context, What is meat? I mean definition!


Just read Guru nanak ji in SGGS..." ( OH Pandit..) You dont even know the difference between the Ganna ( Sugarcane) and Meat !!! and here may i add that we, the SIKHS also "dont know" the differences between Ganna and and Meat..or we wouldnt be arguing on this non-issue. Guur nanak ji Sahib's question is a "rhetoricla question"..that means  a question that requires NO ANSWER becasue its common sense and everybody knows the answer. Thus the answer is that there is NO DIFFERENCE between Vege and Meat..BOTh are MATTER composed of the same things and fit in with NATURE. in NATURE there is a FOOD CHAIN..and everything fits in !!!

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jan 10, 2007)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Randip Singh ji,
> 
> Many thanks for your kind insults.
> Wow! I have read your articles with great interest. You are gem among the Sikh community. How can Sikhs go astray when we have such a knowledgeable genius among us. I apologize for the anguish I may have caused you as it seems that this particular topic is so close to your heart. Why should it not be you have spent nearly 5 months compiling it.
> ...


 
You reallyb are a piece of work:

1) You accuse me of Manmat and then when I reply in kind you accuse me of insults.

2) I demonstrate how from the first line of the Sant Mat propaganda that you have misused the word *Murdaar *as meaning dead animals, when clearly it means the dead. A subtle but very clear difference.

3) I also demostrate that you have twisted a metaphor to support a Brahminist - Vaishnav Agenda. The only purpose of this can be to split Sikhs.

4) KDS has asked the question about using 1 liners from Shabads. This deplorable practice used in the Sant Mat propaganda you posted totally twists the meaning of Bani.

5) KDS has demonstrated a 1 liner from Bani:

ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥ 
जिना खाधी चोपड़ी घणे सहनिगे दुख ॥२८॥ 
jinaa khaaDhee choprhee ghanay sehnigay dukh. ||28|| 
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||sggs1379

Explain this O knower of all knowledge?

Given these points how can anyone take you seriously. You sound like Hari Singh from Sikhi Wiki (who throes the proverbial toys out of the pram when he lost a debate against friends of mine who are both 18).

One final point, I have no interest in trying to enlighten you.....as you have said I represent Darkness, and for you I will always represent Darkness. Infact I am glad I can bring darkness to such un-Sikh views and cover them is a shroud of darkness.

Best Wishes


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Jan 10, 2007)

Randip Singh ji,

In due course I will give you an answer to all your questions. I am not here on a battleground with you, there is no winning and no loosing issue here. At least not from my side. It is my belief that you article is giving a wrong message to the young generation. This will eventually come out in the wash. There is no need to be hot headed. Plz contain your anger.

" You cannot insult me because i am not looking for parise from you" - quote by a saint.

I again reiterate, since you have done so much research into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Can you provide any verses, tukan's etc where our gurus have said that you can eat meat and that eating meat will not prohibit you from achieving unity with god.

"My comment to the question where this all started from was - If you are following the path of salvation/enlightenment, then one should not indulge in eating meat as it becomes a hurdle in the your path" and that this is my personal experience. I do not remember the exact quote but it was to this effect. It was not regarding your favourite topic. I believe you have mis-undertood me.

Let us leave the past in the past and move forward. I hope you will agree.

Regards


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## Randip Singh (Jan 11, 2007)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Randip Singh ji,
> 
> In due course I will give you an answer to all your questions. I am not here on a battleground with you, there is no winning and no loosing issue here. At least not from my side. It is my belief that you article is giving a wrong message to the young generation. This will eventually come out in the wash. There is no need to be hot headed. Plz contain your anger.


 
I am far from angry. Just amazed at your guile.....you claim other people are talking Manmat and you expect them to take that as a complement? 



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> " You cannot insult me because i am not looking for parise from you" - quote by a saint.


 
Yet you see fit to insult others.......very noble.....not the conduct of a Saint or one who quotes Saints.

Note this too:

"When all other means may have been exhausted, it may be righteous to draw the sword"



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I again reiterate, since you have done so much research into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Can you provide any verses, tukan's etc where our gurus have said that you can eat meat and that eating meat will not prohibit you from achieving unity with god.


 
That is the point.....*there are no lines from Bani supporting Vegetarianism. There are no lines from Bani supporting meat eating.*

Only a complete imbecile and fool would think their are lines in Bani that support Meat eating or Vegetarianism.

It is a personal choice.

Best Wishes


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## kds1980 (Jan 11, 2007)

> I again reiterate, since you have done so much research into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Can you provide any verses, tukan's etc where our gurus have said that you can eat meat and that eating meat will not prohibit you from achieving unity with god



what a logic!! ekmusafir ji could you please  please provide me a shabad
where it is wriiten to eat halwa,puri,gulab jamun and other tasy vegetarian
but vegetarians not only eat it but also distribuite them in langar


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## Lionchild (Jan 11, 2007)

randip singh said:


> That is the point.....*there are no lines from Bani supporting Vegetarianism. There are no lines from Bani supporting meat eating.*
> 
> Only a complete imbecile and fool would think their are lines in Bani that support Meat eating or Vegetarianism.
> 
> ...



Yes, so true, this is a lifestyle choice, and has no part of sikhi. People get the halal meat thing confused as well, they miss the message in it, we are not supposed to eat ritualy prepared food, both meat and veg.

Some people just don't get it.


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