# Undermining Sikhism



## BhagatSingh (Apr 15, 2009)

Ignoring what I have written above and below the actual content... read on!

Aad ji, You mentioned in another part of the forum that one of the rules is to not "Undermine Sikhism".
I wanted to ask and thought this would be the perfect place to do so.
How would one go about "undermining Sikhism"?
By Sikhism if one means the organized Religion including the rehit and Dasam Granth, then I believe I have already done that along with many other members on the forum.
By Sikhism, if one means the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then how do you undermine them???

I need clarification on this, and perhaps others do as well.

Thanks
Bhagat​


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## dalsingh (Apr 15, 2009)

Bhagat, just be careful to tred gently when faith is concerned. Some Sikhs are prone to go nuts when you challenge fundamental beliefs. I think you need to put your questions more prudently lest you court unneccesary (can never spell that word!!) controversy and provoke anger.

Just be smooth and don't "arrh" (the Panjabi word) on issues.


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## spnadmin (Apr 15, 2009)

Bhagat ji

I agree with Dalsingh ji and would add this. Do not respond constantly with lawyer-like questions every time someone posts a response. Let the members speak their minds. If you really want an answer to your questions then do not fence with the membership.

Sit back and see what the answers and opinions are.


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## friend (Apr 15, 2009)

how can the 5th largest and striclty practiced religion be undermined.


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## dalsingh (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah Bhagat!!

Further to Aad jis post. If you are that way inclined you should be studying law not "doctori"!

New Panjabi word I learnt recently "kasoori" = argument.

Aahmay nah kasoori pa!


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## pk70 (Apr 15, 2009)

dalsingh said:


> Yeah Bhagat!!
> 
> Further to Aad jis post. If you are that way inclined you should be studying law not "doctori"!
> 
> ...





*I think its "bhathoori" not kasoori, if mistyped, forgive me.*


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## friend (Apr 15, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *I think its "bhathoori" not kasoori, if mistyped, forgive me.*


 
I think both of them, can mean arguement.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 16, 2009)

What about a combination of the two, a Bhasoorhi? I think that is a real word.

I think I do "Arrh" sometimes.

I think what has been said so far generally goes for society (up in person) as well as the forums. I HAVE been told by an anti-social Sikh fellow that I am pretty anti-social.  

Great adive! Aad ji I am going to apply yours right now, and wait for more responses before I ask why noone bothered to answer the question besides friend who seems to have ignored it!!!! :}--}: 
kidding...  I totally understand what you mean. I think its because I lack patience, which is SO werid because I work on huge paintings that REQUIRE a great deal of patience! I seriously lack the ability to learn about myself FROM myself so its very imporant for me to hear what others have to say about me. 
Great adive so far guys!

DalSingh ji, you're right I don't think I could be a family doctor. 
"what do you mean you're sick, why do you think so? what evidence do you have? from what source did you get this from? when they said this they meant something else!!" - Bhagat Singh, perhaps-in-the-near-future AD


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2009)

Happy face -- icons not working -


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## Admin (Apr 16, 2009)

Bhagat Singh ji, you have spared no opportunity ridiculing the Sikh Bana and belittling Sikh Gurus in your messages but quite surprisingly you paint all the Sikh personalities in full bana and attire... and as per your writings and imagination, they should all be clean shaven and what not... your words do not support your paintings... how about creating a portrait of Baba Deep Singh ji without a Turban and without a flowing beard...? You see its all acceptable in the name of freedom of expression!! right?  

And then you are making money out of selling such glorified portaits of such an important peronsalities in Sikh history... you are doing this only for money then it is quite apprent as your writings suggest little impression that you are creating these images out love and respect for these personalities... even if you have some respect for them then it does reflect in your messages...

People who shamelessly maintain double standards are undermining Sikhism. :welcome:
Bhul Chuk Maaf


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 16, 2009)

i think Bhagat Singh's question remains unanswered.

What has he undermined?

1 or 2 ?


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 16, 2009)

Aman Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji, you have spared no opportunity ridiculing the Sikh Bana and belittling Sikh Gurus in your messages but quite surprisingly you paint all the Sikh personalities in full bana and attire... and as per your writings and imagination, they should all be clean shaven and what not... your words do not support your paintings... how about creating a portrait of Baba Deep Singh ji without a Turban and without a flowing beard...? You see its all acceptable in the name of freedom of expression!! right?
> 
> And then you are making money out of selling such glorified portaits of such an important peronsalities in Sikh history... you are doing this only for money then it is quite apprent as your writings suggest little impression that you are creating these images out love and respect for these personalities... even if you have some respect for them then it does reflect in your messages...
> 
> ...


Dear Aman Singh ji
It would lead me nowhere if I simply read this and say OK i am wrong when I don't see where I am wrong.
It would be just as stupid of me, to read and this try and quote posts where I haven't riduculed or to say things like " I think Bana is cool" when you feel in other posts I have said the opposite.
Therefore, I humbly ask you to honestly list the posts on this thread where you felt that I had done what you accuse me of. 
- so I can explain myself and clarify any misconceptions that may exist
- so that I can change for the better
- so that others can see examples of undermining sikhism because that is what this thread is about

Thank you for your patience. I admire it.

Amarsanghera ji


> i think Bhagat Singh's question remains unanswered.
> 
> What has he undermined?
> 
> 1 or 2 ?


Thanks for pointing that out.


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## pk70 (Apr 16, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> i think Bhagat Singh's question remains unanswered.
> 
> What has he undermined?
> 
> 1 or 2 ?




*Reread Aman Ji's post, its crystal clear.
*


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## Admin (Apr 16, 2009)

The explanation to your 'questions', i will leave to your conscious. 



> Dear Aman Singh ji
> It would lead me nowhere if I simply read this and say OK i am wrong when I don't see where I am wrong.
> It would be just as stupid of me, to read and this try and quote posts where I haven't riduculed or to say things like " I think Bana is cool" when you feel in other posts I have said the opposite.
> Therefore, I humbly ask you to honestly list the posts on this thread where you felt that I had done what you accuse me of.
> ...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 16, 2009)

Aman Singh ji,
Is that in response to my post?
Never mind.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 16, 2009)

Dear Aman Singh ji,

OK you have edited your response that helps. I actually dont agree with any of your accusations. I think about it and continue to do so but no matter how much I think I cannot agree with it. My concious does not tell me that they are true either.
Just take one of my recent posts. I'll show you in plain colour how I have tried to argue from both sides. red is where I am argued against "bana" and blue is where I have spoken for it.
That green is why you see Sikhs in my paintings with full bana. 




> > Originally Posted by *tony*
> >
> >
> >
> ...


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98160
The post after this: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98163

This post (and the one after it with the passages) only analyzes what we know, and I don't know how you can come to a certain conclusions about MY FEEELINGS towards something. Feelings should have no place in such dicussions because they lead the discussions away from its essence. 
But since you have brought it up, I have very strong feelings for keeping of uncut hair, and for the dress code of Sikhs during those wars I paint. With litle uncertainity, I do believe that Baba Deep Singh and sikhs like him did follow the rehit laid down by Guru Gobind Singh. This is why I painted him with full bana. 
But I know Mati Das ji ( that's one example) did not follow the rehit so the length of his hair is upto the artist's imagination. And the artist is no way SHOULD be obligated to paint him with long uncut hair and such.
You are essentially confusing historical situation and present day situation. I am keeping them separate, painting history how I percieve it is and accordig to my knowledge, and presenting my arguments on the forum based on how those things apply now.

So that's about the bana; um .. I don't know if I have ever belittled the Gurus. I remember once I said they probably couldn't dance in response to the "Dancing and Gurbani" posts. if you think that's belittling the Gurus then there is nothing I can do. its a plain comment on their lifestlye, and its a very UNCERTAIN comment. but I do remember that such statements are not adding to the discussion so did I not stop and apologise??

Therefore, I conclude that what you have accused me of is simply not true. Its more of an emotional accusation than anything, with no basis. This emotion has been brought to my attention (by other members), and I can only TRY to be more sensitive to such topics.

With utmost sincerity,
Bhagat


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Dear Aman Singh ji,
> 
> OK you have edited your response that helps. I actually dont agree with any of your accusations. I think about it and continue to do so but no matter how much I think I cannot agree with it. My concious does not tell me that they are true either.
> Just take one of my recent posts. I'll show you in plain colour how I have tried to argue from both sides. red is where I am argued against "bana" and blue is where I have spoken for it.
> ...


 
This is so far from the Truth.  Take a look at the thread: 'Manmukh or Gurmukh: Can mind serve as spiritual authority?'
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/24321-manmukh-gurmukh-can-mind-serve-spiritual.html

also here; http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24315-hair-9.html

also in this thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/23677-dancing-and-gurbani.html

..............


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2009)

Once again the thread is becoming a two-way argument between two forum members. The thread is going downhill. Posts have been removed. Return to the subject of the thread. The last question asked was "Can mind serve as a spiritual authority?" aad0002


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 16, 2009)

pk70 ji

sadly it did not seem clear to me.

I think Bhagat asked the question very objectively and clearly.

The answer was not clear and objective, but deductive and based on own perception of other person's posts and intentions.


might be my shortcoming in grasping the language or anything.

apologies anyways !


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## Admin (Apr 17, 2009)

Amar ji, We just can't jump in from here or there and seek clarification on a matter that we ain't got a clue?  May be you visited SPN after a while... this topic was a kind culmination of various off topic posts in various threads... i hope that made sense...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 17, 2009)

Maybe its beacuse Amarsanghra ji came after a while and has a much more clearer view of the situation.
I myself have experienced that.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 17, 2009)

Aman ji

i went through a lot of threads and am aware of the various thoughts put forth by Bhagat and others.

however

i see that Bhagat asked a question that is linked to none:

1. Can a religion be undermined - how? A religion is as defined by the rehits- do's don'ts and the dogmas
2. Can the essence of the PATH be undermined- How?  the True Guru, the path to One.

even i have asked a hard question many find difficult to answer:

what is Sikhi and What is Sikhism

and this is important, is this board and discussion forum about Sikhi or about Sikhism?

ofcourse my second question can only be answered if the first one is answered.

i understand and appreciate where your view point is coming from, it is just that i have a different opinion.


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> sadly it did not seem clear to me.
> 
> ...



*Amar sanghera Ji*
*As I read Aman ji’s post, it reflects the history of Bhagat Singh’s behavior towards Gurbani and Hair etc, I don’t know if you know, Bhagat Singh Ji was warned because of  this very reason and he admits if he does go off the topic. May be you are just looking at his recent question only. Regarding language comprehension, I doubt I pointed out that, if you smell this from my post, forgive me but there was no intention at all and never would be ever. Thanks*


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 17, 2009)

> *As I read Aman ji’s post, it reflects the history of Bhagat Singh’s behavior towards Gurbani and Hair etc, I don’t know if you know, Bhagat Singh Ji was warned because of this very reason and he admits if he does go of the topic.*



This is untrue but I understand that it might not change the point of the rest of your post.


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> This is untrue but I understand that it might not change the point of the rest of your post.




*What is untrue Bhagat Singh Ji? 
 You admission about going off the topic or your being warned?*


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera ji

The thread began as a single question spun from another thread where it did not quite fit. Bhagat ji framed this as two questions -- as you point out. Since then the thread has twisted and turned but the question is not answered. It was actually I who asked Bhagat ji to ask for the meaning of Undermining Sikhism in a separate thread. 

There has been some jousting and some off-topic discussion. All I can see is word play. It may be that my suggestion was a bad one. Maybe people don't want to discuss it or the topic has no interest.

Apologies from me. However in a day or so without any work on the theme, the thread will probably die and will need to be removed.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 17, 2009)

Tough questions are often mistaken as insult and they should not be.

this is exactly why i rephrased Bhagat's question.

breaking away from my vow of single liners


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Tough questions are often mistaken as insult and they should not be.
> 
> this is exactly why i rephrased Bhagat's question.
> 
> breaking away from my vow of single liners


 
Tough question, this a great joke amar.  Here's another tough question 1+1=???????


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2009)

Please forgive me. We have the questions? When do we start answering them?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 18, 2009)

elementary Singh ji

the answer is 2

but if i had some self interest, i will make it whatever you want to hear.:u):

Read the last line carefully 

However,

i feel we have the two questions set by Bhagat:

Anyone open to discussion?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 19, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> elementary Singh ji
> 
> the answer is 2
> 
> ...


 
amar, you have out done yourself again. 2 :happy::happy:  

Start answering the questions, no one is stopping you amar.  By your writing it seems you have some tricks up your sleeve.  I believe you have your assistant aswell, bhagat singh.

Let the show beginning, I'm sit back and grab some popcorn.:happy:To bad we don't have one with eating popcorn, but this will do:ice:


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## Randip Singh (Apr 19, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ignoring what I have written above and below the actual content... read on!
> 
> Aad ji, You mentioned in another part of the forum that one of the rules is to not "Undermine Sikhism".
> I wanted to ask and thought this would be the perfect place to do so.
> ...



Let me give you an example I have made up:

Same question different way

1) I believe Guru Gobind Singh ji was stupid  for fighting. He should have pursued non violence. Why didn't he?

same question rephrased

2) Why did Guru Gobind Singh ji take up the sword and pursue a path of non violence instead?

see what I am getting at.


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## Archived_Member5 (Apr 19, 2009)

This is the last but penultimate page of the SGGS, what appears to be the Guru Ji at his lowest and darkest hour. It thus occurs with Saintly Souls and ordinate mortals alike pilgrims of the Waheguru light are made to pass through hours of darkness and bitter trials before they meet their ultimate end.

ਨਿਜਕਰਿਦੇਖਿਓਜਗਤੁਮੈਕੋਕਾਹੂਕੋਨਾਹਿ॥
Nij kar ḏekẖi▫o jagaṯ mai ko kāhū ko nāhi.
I have looked upon everyone as my own, however, I have observed that, in this world, no one is another's friend.
ਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਹਰਿਭਗਤਿਹੈਤਿਹਰਾਖੋਮਨਮਾਹਿ॥੪੮॥
Nānak thir har bẖagaṯ hai ṯih rākẖo man māhi. ||48||
Nanak, permanent is only the devotional service of God. Enshrine thou that in thy mind.
ਜਗਰਚਨਾਸਭਝੂਠਹੈਜਾਨਿਲੇਹੁਰੇਮੀਤ॥
Jag racẖnā sabẖ jẖūṯẖ hai jān leho re mīṯ.
Totally false is the structure of the world. Know thou this, O my friend.
ਕਹਿਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਨਾਰਹੈਜਿਉਬਾਲੂਕੀਭੀਤਿ॥੪੯॥
Kahi Nānak thir nā rahai ji▫o bālū kī bẖīṯ. ||49||
Says Nanak, like the wall of sand, it remains not permanent.
ਰਾਮੁਗਇਓਰਾਵਨੁਗਇਓਜਾਕਉਬਹੁਪਰਵਾਰੁ॥
Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār.
Ram Chander passed away and Rawan, too, who has a large family, had to pass away.
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਕਛੁਨਹੀਸੁਪਨੇਜਿਉਸੰਸਾਰੁ॥੫੦॥
Kaho Nānak thir kacẖẖ nahī supne ji▫o sansār. ||50||
Says Nanak, nothing is ever-lasting, the world is like a dream.
ਚਿੰਤਾਤਾਕੀਕੀਜੀਐਜੋਅਨਹੋਨੀਹੋਇ॥
Cẖinṯā ṯā kī kījī▫ai jo anhonī ho▫e.
Only then one should worry, if a thing, not expected to happen, comes to pass.
ਇਹੁਮਾਰਗੁਸੰਸਾਰਕੋਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਨਹੀਕੋਇ॥੫੧॥
Ih mārag sansār ko Nānak thir nahī ko▫e. ||51||
This is the way of the world. None is ever stable, O Nanak.
ਜੋਉਪਜਿਓਸੋਬਿਨਸਿਹੈਪਰੋਆਜੁਕੈਕਾਲਿ॥
Jo upji▫o so binas hai paro āj kai kāl.
Whosoever is born, he must perish. Every one shall fall today or tomorrow.
ਨਾਨਕਹਰਿਗੁਨਗਾਇਲੇਛਾਡਿਸਗਲਜੰਜਾਲ॥੫੨॥
Nānak har gun gā▫e le cẖẖād sagal janjāl. ||52||
Nanak, thou sing the Lord's praises and lay aside all other entanglements.
ਬਲੁਛੁਟਕਿਓਬੰਧਨਪਰੇਕਛੂਨਹੋਤਉਪਾਇ॥
Bal cẖẖutki▫o banḏẖan pare kacẖẖū na hoṯ upā▫e.
My strength is exhausted, I am in chains and I can make not any effort.
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਅਬਓਟਹਰਿਗਜਜਿਉਹੋਹੁਸਹਾਇ॥੫੩॥
Kaho Nānak ab ot har gaj ji▫o hohu sahā▫e. ||53||
Say Nanak, God alone is now my refuge. He will help me as he did the elephant.
ਬਲੁਹੋਆਬੰਧਨਛੁਟੇਸਭੁਕਿਛੁਹੋਤਉਪਾਇ॥
Bal ho▫ā banḏẖan cẖẖute sabẖ kicẖẖ hoṯ upā▫e.
I have regained my Power, my bonds are broken and all options are open on to me.
ਨਾਨਕਸਭੁਕਿਛੁਤੁਮਰੈਹਾਥਮੈਤੁਮਹੀਹੋਤਸਹਾਇ॥੫੪॥
Nānak sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯumrai hāth mai ṯum hī hoṯ sahā▫e. ||54||
Nanak, everything is in thine hands. It is only thou who can assist thyself.
ਸੰਗਸਖਾਸਭਿਤਜਿਗਏਕੋਊਨਨਿਬਹਿਓਸਾਥਿ॥
Sang sakẖā sabẖ ṯaj ga▫e ko▫ū na nib▫hi▫o sāth.
My associates and mates have all left me. None has remained with me to the last.
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਇਹਬਿਪਤਿਮੈਟੇਕਏਕਰਘੁਨਾਥ॥੫੫॥
Kaho Nānak ih bipaṯ mai tek ek ragẖunāth. ||55||
Says Nanak, in this calamity, the Lord alone is my support.
ਨਾਮੁਰਹਿਓਸਾਧੂਰਹਿਓਰਹਿਓਗੁਰੁਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ॥
Nām rahi▫o sāḏẖū rahi▫o rahi▫o gur gobinḏ.
Only the Lord is eternal, His Name remains eternal and so are the saints.
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਇਹਜਗਤਮੈਕਿਨਜਪਿਓਗੁਰਮੰਤੁ॥੫੬॥
Kaho Nānak ih jagaṯ mai kin japi▫o gur manṯ. ||56||
Says Nanak, rare is the one, who reflects over the Guru's word, in this world.
ਰਾਮਨਾਮੁਉਰਮੈਗਹਿਓਜਾਕੈਸਮਨਹੀਕੋਇ॥
Rām nām ur mai gahi▫o jā kai sam nahī ko▫e.
The Lord's Name, of which there is no peer, I have clasped to my mind.
ਜਿਹਸਿਮਰਤਸੰਕਟਮਿਟੈਦਰਸੁਤੁਹਾਰੋਹੋਇ॥੫੭॥੧॥
Jih simraṯ sankat mitai ḏaras ṯuhāro ho▫e. ||57||1||
Such is thy Name, O Lord, remembering which my troubles end and I am blessed with Thine vision.
ਥਾਲਵਿਚਿਤਿੰਨਿਵਸਤੂਪਈਓਸਤੁਸੰਤੋਖੁਵੀਚਾਰੋ॥
Thāl vicẖ ṯinn vasṯū pa▫ī▫o saṯ sanṯokẖ vīcẖāro.
In the platter are placed three things, truth, contentment and meditations.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨਾਮੁਠਾਕੁਰਕਾਪਇਓਜਿਸਕਾਸਭਸੁਅਧਾਰੋ॥
Amriṯ nām ṯẖākur kā pa▫i▫o jis kā sabẖas aḏẖāro.
The Nectar-Name of the Lord, who is the support of all, has also been put therein.
ਜੇਕੋਖਾਵੈਜੇਕੋਭੁੰਚੈਤਿਸਕਾਹੋਇਉਧਾਰੋ॥
Je ko kẖāvai je ko bẖuncẖai ṯis kā ho▫e uḏẖāro.
If someone partakes this and relishes it, he is emancipated.
ਏਹਵਸਤੁਤਜੀਨਹਜਾਈਨਿਤਨਿਤਰਖੁਉਰਿਧਾਰੋ॥
Ėh vasaṯ ṯajī nah jā▫ī niṯ niṯ rakẖ ur ḏẖāro.
This can be forsaken not, so ever and always keep thou this enshrined in thy mind.
ਤਮਸੰਸਾਰੁਚਰਨਲਗਿਤਰੀਐਸਭੁਨਾਨਕਬ੍ਰਹਮਪਸਾਰੋ॥੧॥
Ŧam sansār cẖaran lag ṯarī▫ai sabẖ Nānak barahm pasāro. ||1||
Repairing to the Lord's feet, the dark world ocean is crossed; O Nanak, everything is an extension of the Lord.
ਤਰਸੁਪਇਆਮਿਹਰਾਮਤਿਹੋਈਸਤਿਗੁਰੁਸਜਣੁਮਿਲਿਆ॥
Ŧaras pa▫i▫ā mihrāmaṯ ho▫ī saṯgur sajaṇ mili▫ā.
Thou have shown mercy and rained Thine benediction on me. I have now met with the True Guru, my friend.
ਨਾਨਕਨਾਮੁਮਿਲੈਤਾਂਜੀਵਾਂਤਨੁਮਨੁਥੀਵੈਹਰਿਆ॥੧॥
Nānak nām milai ṯāŉ jīvāŉ ṯan man thīvai hari▫ā. ||1||
Nanak! Then alone I live and my body and soul blossom forth, if I am blessed with the Lord's Name.


Consoling or comforting are inappropriate terms, the Creator of the world and Sikhism too were undermined at one stage and to a degree remain so. The absence of any great and pious leader of influence would indicate the Guru Nanak was too warned during his life journey and trials by those who felt affronted by his staunch stance and moral and honourable outlook. 

Kal diyan sarkaran ensure all faith and religions are undermined, as is the very existence and definitive of God, Waheguru or evidence of any Supernatural power by the wielders of sorcery and devilry, unchastity and cunning. Many great Sikh Saints gave their lives than bow head to a savage and unethical tyrannical state. It unfortunately goes on to this day. 

Religions shield the former sinners in godly apparel whilst the warriors and embattled including Waheguru himself sought a faithful ally in a world controlled by devilry, and would rather distance himself from the noble righteous than endanger their lives by subjecting them to the travails and manipulations of his ruthless enemy. A sad and sorry state of affairs indeed...

I would sincerely hope the true devout Sikhs retain faith and belief in their Forefathers and the hardships they endured that we have a strong belief system and culture to give meaning to an otherwise confusing and complex world, the reason why we are the strong, moral warrior race whether in the homeland or in an adversarial den of iniquity...

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1429&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=0


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 19, 2009)

If one looks at the SGGS...its very bantar...structure is similar to our LIFE..childhood..teenager...adulthood...and Final DEATH. At various sections of SGGS especially in Sri Raag Guru ji has mentioned the Various FOUR stages of our Life...the Structure of the SGGS Mirrors this...

In the Concluding Slokas at the END of SGGS..its NOT the GURU that is at his "seemingly" Low..its a MIRROR for US to look at. We have reached the END Stage of our Lives..YET we havent made the Grade..we are still found wanting...and the Divine Message is loud and clear. The GURU is giving us His final warning...AWAKE !!! My SIKH..get up and smell the Coffee !! before its too late.

It may be too late for the One thats DEAD already..BUT for Those among the sangat sitting LISTENING..its  a WARNING from the GURU..to BEWARE...samajh jao..still got time...Thats why the SOLKS are read at every BHOG..whether to CELEBRATE HAPPY OCASSION or DEATH....births, weddings...and DEATH...ANAND SAHIB follows each BHOG !! BLISS is the HIGH END MESSAGE !!
The GURU can NEVER be in "LOW" spirits....IF the Guru is low then how can he make us HIGH ?? The GURU is CONSISTENT....always in Chardeekalla.
WE HUMANS get Low and High..so we pull down the Guru to our Level.

2. Similar..to "God made US in His Image."
We humans havent seen GOD..but we have seen our own images in the mirror...so what do we do..
The One with the Puggy Nose..paints GOD with a puggy nose...a White man..paints God as White..a Negro makes God black...a Woman makes God as Durga...some Durgas are beautiful..others ugly..and yet others horrendous... GOD is ONE..but we have so many images..because we are MANY. The Blacks cant reconcile with a WHITE JESUS ?? even though they know he is *** and as such most probably not black....but he still God to them..so the Black jesus is there..
 IF GOD" is indeed in "OUR" IMAGE..then why we so many diffeent images ?? Its the other way around...WE "make" God in "our image" becasue we dont know any other way...The Bhagats, the Sikh Gurus.."saw" God in an image with Long flowing hair KESH. beautiful long sharp nose..shining white pearly teeth.. others see fit to "laugh" at this...and say who has seen God ?? Does he really have Kesh etc..He has no Form ?? How to reconcile ?? My 9 yr old son will Laugh his head off....even those older get angry....because they "see" god in clean- shaven form !! which is DIFFERENT from the Image seen by our GURUS...and they BEG to DIFFER and want everyone to see their way....or be blamed as jhoothey paej....etc etc...similarly we are SAD..so we make the Guru sad....we want to Cry at someones death..so we make the GURU cry..and say he is at his lowest !!!


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## Archived_Member5 (Apr 19, 2009)

What is pain and what is pleasure, what is beauty and what is deemed unattractive, the mortal in his own contemptuousness overlooks the struggles of his forebears, of great men killed in futile wars, {Ardars} of the trials and tribulations undergone that mankind be free. The Waheguru is virtue, wisdom, beauty and light. I guide and counsel my children, I do not cite them as source of reference for insight into theology and transliteral interpretations of the SGGS or any other scripture. What is death, to be dead but to be blind to the pain and suffering of mankind because you yourself are ensconced in bliss. Some die an earthly death and gain Jiwan Mukhti, others breathe and consume but are as carcasses and pawn driven by whatever will takes them. If mortal were conscious or aware of the pain within each heart, the vulnerability, the helplessness he would live in an emotionally depressed state of mind, decidedly unhealthy. To boast so loudly that the Guru cannot be brought low by the deviousness and folly of his creation must assuredly be a greater death. Humans have emotional waves of exaltation and melancholy, where do you think this emanates from, what is the catalyst. I thoroughly and as always disagree with your outburst. Who in their own vainglory cast WaheGuru as some stone impervious to mans trickery and blindness, man perceives his God by measure of his own thinking and intellect. How can you speak o the deaf, or listen to the mute, muted, made dumb by his own an inability to comprehend what is glaringly evident to the awakened souls. 

The Image of God – expressed beautifully in Bani, is found by those with God conscious in the faces of  wise elders, innocent children, of humanity in its many colours and hues, how man profess to know God if he cannot see beyond race, colour and facade, folly indeed. The racial wars, religious conflicts and patriotic alliances are constructs of man, having no bearing with He who created the world. so man gains education, the skill of linguistic erudition, what matters it if he speaks so dismissively on matters his limited and blinkered vision prohibit him from seeing. All answers to your little riposte there are contained within the Bani, if you had studied and understood it your outburst would be a little better informed.

The young generation loses its way in a confusing and diverse world, the keepers of the word and religion take siege and hostage the word and The Waheguru as some sort of shield to accord them credibility and respect where character and substance may not inspire such laud. We witness this in all religions with zealots harnessing Gods words as their own narrow minded word and defaming the sacred institution of religion thereby. We know what the Supreme Lord looks like, resembles, our Guru Ji recited his virtues fulsomely and with monumental eloquence. I cite here gains for your reference:-


ਕਿ ਜ਼ਾਹਰ ਜ਼ਹੂਰ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਹਾਜ਼ਰ ਹਜ਼ੂਰ ਹੈਂ ॥ 
*Ki zaahar zahoor hain|| Ki haazar hazoor hain||*
*That Thou art visible illumination. That Thou art All-Prevading.*
ਹਮੇਸੁਲ ਸਲਾਮ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਮਸਤੁਲ ਕਲਾਮ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੫੦॥ 
*Hamesul salaam hain|| Samastul kalaam hain||150||*
*That Thou art reveiver of Eternal conpliments. That Thou art Venerated by all. 150*

ਕਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਿਮਾਗ਼ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਹੁਸਨਲ ਚਰਾਗ਼ ਹੈਂ ॥ 
*Ki saahib dimaag hain|| Ki husnal charaag hain||*
*That Thou art Most Intelligent. That Thou art the Lamp of Beauty.*

ਕਿ ਕਾਮਲ ਕਰੀਮ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਰਾਜ਼ਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੫੧॥ 
*Ki kaamal karoom hain|| Ki raazak rahoom hain||151||*
*That Thou art completely Generous. That Thou art Sustainer and Merciful.151.*

ਕਿ ਰੋਜ਼ੀ ਦਿਹਿੰਦ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਰਾਜ਼ਕ ਰਹਿੰਦ ਹੈਂ ॥ 
*Ki rozi dihind hain|| Ki raazak rahind hain||*
*That Thou art Giver of Sustenance. That Thou art ever the Sustainer.*

ਕਰੀਮੁਲ ਕਮਾਲ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਹੁਸਨਲ ਜਮਾਲ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੫੨॥ 
*Karoomul kamaal hain|| Ki husnal jamaal hain||152||*
*That Thou art the perfection of Generosity. That Thou art Most Beautiful. 152.*

ਗ਼ਨੀਮੁਲ ਖ਼ਿਰਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਗ਼ਰੀਬੁਲ ਨਿਵਾਜ਼ ਹੈਂ ॥ 
*Ghanoomul khiraaj hain|| Gharoobul nivaaz hain||*
*That Thou art the Penaliser of enemies. That Thou art the Supporter of the poor.*

ਹਰਫ਼ਿੁਲ ਸ਼ਿਕੰਨ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਹਿਰਾਸੁਲ ਫਿਕੰਨ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੫੩॥ 
*Harooful shikann hain|| Hiraasul fikann hain||153||*
*That Thou art the Destroyer of enemies That Thou art the remover of Fear. 153.*

ਕਲੰਕੰ ਪ੍ਰਣਾਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਮਸਤੁਲ ਨਿਵਾਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ 
*Kalankang pranaas hain|| Samastul nivaas hain||*
*That Thou art the Destroyer of blemishes. That Thou art the dweller in all.*

ਅਗੰਜੁਲ ਗਨੀਮ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਰਜਾਇਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੫੪॥ 
*Aganjul ganoom hain|| Rajaaik rahoom hain||154||*
*That Thou art invincible by enemies. That Thou art the Sustainer and Gracious. 154.*​


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 19, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Let me give you an example I have made up:
> 
> Same question different way
> 
> ...


NO sir. Dasam Granth and Rehit + SGGS is DIFFERENT from SGGS.
I get your point and I see where you are coming from but there ARE differences. Like SGGS is neutral on hair but Rehit says keep uncut hair, etc etc.

So now tell us what you think?:yes:


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## pk70 (Apr 19, 2009)

*With all due respect Jiti Johal Jio*
*As long as we read and understand Gurbani with the color of our own thinking, we will not be able to get Guru Message (its applicable to me too), as we dump our learning and follow what is actually being said, eyes start opening.*
*I have no problem what you think about life, you are entitled to your opinion as I am. I just request you to give second thought to judge Guru in low state as he is not.*
*Now let’s look at the following Sloka of Guru and see if Guru is in low states, it will be injustice to judge him without understanding in what context what is being said.*
ਨਿਜਕਰਿਦੇਖਿਓਜਗਤੁਮੈਕੋਕਾਹੂਕੋਨਾਹਿ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Nij kar ḏekẖi▫o jagaṯ mai ko kāhū ko nāhi.[/FONT]
I have looked upon everyone as my own, however, I have observed that, in this world, no one is another's friend.[/FONT]
ਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਹਰਿਭਗਤਿਹੈਤਿਹਰਾਖੋਮਨਮਾਹਿ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੪੮॥
Nānak thir har bẖagaṯ hai ṯih rākẖo man māhi. ||48||[/FONT]
Nanak, permanent is only the devotional service of God. Enshrine thou that in thy mind.[/FONT]
*Guru ji is inspiring the soul totally involved in Maya(materialistic world) to see it(Maya) as temporary when soul leaves, nothing goes with it, what goes with it His love enshrined in mind, this makes the soul to merge with the eternal to be eternal[/FONT]
*ਜਗਰਚਨਾਸਭਝੂਠਹੈਜਾਨਿਲੇਹੁਰੇਮੀਤ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Jag racẖnā sabẖ jẖūṯẖ hai jān leho re mīṯ.[/FONT]
Totally false is the structure of the world. Know thou this, O my friend.[/FONT]
ਕਹਿਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਨਾਰਹੈਜਿਉਬਾਲੂਕੀਭੀਤਿ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੪੯॥
Kahi Nānak thir nā rahai ji▫o bālū kī bẖīṯ. ||49||[/FONT]
Says Nanak, like the wall of sand, it remains not permanent.[/FONT]
*Again  it is said in context of the eternal, otherwise Guru got married, had son and lived a “Grasthi Jivan” but in pursuit of union with HIM(if any one believes in Him), all we see is in changing process, so being aware of it, only the eternal is HIM, so  Guru says "go for Him"[/FONT]
*ਰਾਮੁਗਇਓਰਾਵਨੁਗਇਓਜਾਕਉਬਹੁਪਰਵਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār.[/FONT]
Ram Chander passed away and Rawan, too, who has a large family, had to pass away.[/FONT]
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਕਛੁਨਹੀਸੁਪਨੇਜਿਉਸੰਸਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੦॥
Kaho Nānak thir kacẖẖ nahī supne ji▫o sansār. ||50||[/FONT]
Says Nanak, nothing is ever-lasting, the world is like a dream.[/FONT]
*Again, Guru ji asks us to learn from the well famous families of the History, as they have left, we would, dream here is a metaphor that conveys limited time span of life.[/FONT]*
ਚਿੰਤਾਤਾਕੀਕੀਜੀਐਜੋਅਨਹੋਨੀਹੋਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Cẖinṯā ṯā kī kījī▫ai jo anhonī ho▫e.[/FONT]
Only then one should worry, if a thing, not expected to happen, comes to pass.[/FONT]
ਇਹੁਮਾਰਗੁਸੰਸਾਰਕੋਨਾਨਕਥਿਰੁਨਹੀਕੋਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੧॥
Ih mārag sansār ko Nānak thir nahī ko▫e. ||51||[/FONT]
This is the way of the world. None is ever stable, O Nanak.[/FONT]
*Here Guru ji actually gives boost to those who fall low at someone’s death, we are advised not to worry at all about death, it’s a natural process, get over the attachment and take it as an unchangeable fact[/FONT]
*ਜੋਉਪਜਿਓਸੋਬਿਨਸਿਹੈਪਰੋਆਜੁਕੈਕਾਲਿ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Jo upji▫o so binas hai paro āj kai kāl.[/FONT]
Whosoever is born, he must perish. Every one shall fall today or tomorrow.[/FONT]
ਨਾਨਕਹਰਿਗੁਨਗਾਇਲੇਛਾਡਿਸਗਲਜੰਜਾਲ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੨॥
Nānak har gun gā▫e le cẖẖād sagal janjāl. ||52||[/FONT]
Nanak, thou sing the Lord's praises and lay aside all other entanglements.[/FONT]
*Here, Guru ji continues to convince us that the death is eminent, who is born has to go, only useful is to praise the Creator( if merging in Him is believed)[/FONT]*
ਬਲੁਛੁਟਕਿਓਬੰਧਨਪਰੇਕਛੂਨਹੋਤਉਪਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24616 (Undermining Sikhism)
Bal cẖẖutki▫o banḏẖan pare kacẖẖū na hoṯ upā▫e.[/FONT]
My strength is exhausted, I am in chains and I can make not any effort.[/FONT]
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਅਬਓਟਹਰਿਗਜਜਿਉਹੋਹੁਸਹਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੩॥
Kaho Nānak ab ot har gaj ji▫o hohu sahā▫e. ||53||[/FONT]
Say Nanak, God alone is now my refuge. He will help me as he did the elephant.[/FONT]
*Here Guru ji is not down literally he is saying when all strength is gone, God saves us( Here again if we believe in Him and His ordinance from heart as Guru did), take refuge in Him, in such kind of circumstances, Guru advises us to keep our firm faith in Him. Fifth Nanak wrote a Shabad on this issue.[/FONT]
*ਬਲੁਹੋਆਬੰਧਨਛੁਟੇਸਭੁਕਿਛੁਹੋਤਉਪਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Bal ho▫ā banḏẖan cẖẖute sabẖ kicẖẖ hoṯ upā▫e.[/FONT]
I have regained my Power, my bonds are broken and all options are open on to me.[/FONT]
ਨਾਨਕਸਭੁਕਿਛੁਤੁਮਰੈਹਾਥਮੈਤੁਮਹੀਹੋਤਸਹਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੪॥
Nānak sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯumrai hāth mai ṯum hī hoṯ sahā▫e. ||54||[/FONT]
Nanak, everything is in thine hands. It is only thou who can assist thyself.[/FONT]
*Here look carefully, with God’s grace, all power or strength comes back because all is in His hands, devotes of Him fought serious battles considering Him at their side. This is the concept[/FONT]* *of strong faith in Him*[/FONT]*
*ਸੰਗਸਖਾਸਭਿਤਜਿਗਏਕੋਊਨਨਿਬਹਿਓਸਾਥਿ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Sang sakẖā sabẖ ṯaj ga▫e ko▫ū na nib▫hi▫o sāth.[/FONT]
My associates and mates have all left me. None has remained with me to the last.[/FONT]
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਇਹਬਿਪਤਿਮੈਟੇਕਏਕਰਘੁਨਾਥ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੫॥
Kaho Nānak ih bipaṯ mai tek ek ragẖunāth. ||55||[/FONT]
Says Nanak, in this calamity, the Lord alone is my support.[/FONT]
*At the end, nobody goes with us, it is Him who is with us from the moment we take our first breath till the last breath, and stress is on His praise. It’s all about Him, enlightened ones don’t believe what people do, they believe whatever is done is Him, people are just mediums, there are lot of instances of this fact  in Gurbani[/FONT]
*ਨਾਮੁਰਹਿਓਸਾਧੂਰਹਿਓਰਹਿਓਗੁਰੁਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Nām rahi▫o sāḏẖū rahi▫o rahi▫o gur gobinḏ.[/FONT]
Only the Lord is eternal, His Name remains eternal and so are the saints.[/FONT]
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਇਹਜਗਤਮੈਕਿਨਜਪਿਓਗੁਰਮੰਤੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੬॥
Kaho Nānak ih jagaṯ mai kin japi▫o gur manṯ. ||56||[/FONT]
Says Nanak, rare is the one, who reflects over the Guru's word, in this world.the truth [/FONT]
*Here is Guru believes in. Saints get imbued with Him eventually merge with them and become eternal like Him as a part of Him. Guru is aware of this fact that such people are not many[/FONT]*
*
*ਰਾਮਨਾਮੁਉਰਮੈਗਹਿਓਜਾਕੈਸਮਨਹੀਕੋਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Rām nām ur mai gahi▫o jā kai sam nahī ko▫e.[/FONT]
The Lord's Name, of which there is no peer, I have clasped to my mind.[/FONT]
ਜਿਹਸਿਮਰਤਸੰਕਟਮਿਟੈਦਰਸੁਤੁਹਾਰੋਹੋਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫੭॥੧॥
Jih simraṯ sankat mitai ḏaras ṯuhāro ho▫e. ||57||1||[/FONT]
Such is thy Name, O Lord, remembering which my troubles end and I am blessed with Thine vision.[/FONT]
*In the end, Guru directly addresses his followers to praise Him who is capable of eliminating the pains and sorrow, no one is equal to Him, with His praise, His vision comes.[/FONT]
[/FONT]Literally nowhere Guru expresses his being in low state, it’s just misunderstanding

Regards
G Singh
[/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 19, 2009)

singh ji

thank you for your encouraging comments. You surely have a great future ahead of you.

i am awaiting comments from the moderator team to understand th issue further.

being silent/listening does not mean one is not participating in the discussion.

you must have seen that in your classrooms


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## Archived_Member5 (Apr 20, 2009)

In the matter of interpretations what is written, what was intended, what is understood, what in interpreted, and what was the occasion and time to have inspired these words are all transitory and themselves subject to individual interpretation. The final words contained in the SGGS are self explanatory and require no further interpretation from you or I. 


the world is illusory, this we know
ਨਾਵਰੂਪਭਇਓਸਾਧਸੰਗੁਭਵਨਿਧਿਪਾਰਿਪਰਾ॥
Nāv rūp bẖa▫i▫o sāḏẖsang bẖav niḏẖ pār parā.
The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, has assumed the form of a boat, to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.
ਅਪਿਉਪੀਓਗਤੁਥੀਓਭਰਮਾਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਅਜਰੁਜਰਾ॥੨॥੨॥੬॥
Api▫o pī▫o gaṯ thī▫o bẖarmā kaho Nānak ajar jarā. 
I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar, and my doubts are shattered; says Nanak, I can bear the unbearable.


The journey resumes from a faith in the Sangat in assisting one another and the Guru, across what is sometimes the world ocean, the lake of fire, the complex and confusion of the world and ends where the Guru feels abandoned and alone but with universal spirit remains conscious of hope and light. The Christ on his cross in his final moments, witnessed by the throng, cried out ‘’father, why hast thou forsaken me’’.

ਰਤਨੁਰਾਮੁਘਟਹੀਕੇਭੀਤਰਿਤਾਕੋਗਿਆਨੁਨਪਾਇਓ॥
Raṯan rām gẖat hī ke bẖīṯar ṯā ko gi▫ān na pā▫i▫o.
The Jewel of the Lord is deep within my heart, but I do not have any knowledge of Him.
ਜਨਨਾਨਕਭਗਵੰਤਭਜਨਬਿਨੁਬਿਰਥਾਜਨਮੁਗਵਾਇਓ॥੨॥੧॥
Jan Nānak bẖagvanṯ bẖajan bin birthā janam gavā▫i▫o. 
O servant Nanak, without resonance, meditating on the Lord God, human life is uselessly wasted and lost. 

The light of the Lord and the word are contained within man,. The purpose of his life is to destroy the barriers of pap, haram, krodh, sin natures to gain release from his mortal shell and become at one with the universal spirit. This requires a pure unbiased mind and thinking, and a pious and moral spirit. Duality of service between world and word creates stress and hardship for man.


ਮਾਨਮੋਹਅਰੁਲੋਭਵਿਕਾਰਾਬੀਓਚੀਤਿਨਘਾਲਿਓ॥
Mān moh ar lobẖ vikārā bī▫o cẖīṯ na gẖāli▫o.
Pride, emotional attachment, greed and corruption are gone; I have not placed anything else, other than the Lord, within my consciousness.
ਨਾਮਰਤਨੁਗੁਣਾਹਰਿਬਣਜੇਲਾਦਿਵਖਰੁਲੈਚਾਲਿਓ॥੧॥
Nām raṯan guṇā har baṇje lāḏ vakẖar lai cẖāli▫o. 
I have purchased the jewel of the Naam and the Glorious Praises of the Lord; loading this merchandise, I have set out on my journey. 


The ego, attachment to world illusory allegiances, attachments to name, vain glory and all vacuous and superficial. The truth makes clear all confusion, augments devotedness to the word of truth in this dark age where many forces seek to control the populace by devilish and carnal means. Shedding the psyche of duplicitousness, paap releases mankind from their vice like oppressive grip. Clear rational unprejudicial thinking emanates from a pure uncluttered focused mind.

ਚਾਰੇਕੁੰਡਾਝੋਕਿਵਰਸਦਾਬੂੰਦਪਵੈਸਹਜਿਸੁਭਾਇ॥
Cẖāre kundā jẖok varasḏā būnḏ pavai sahj subẖā▫e.
The clouds are heavy, hanging low, and the rain is pouring down on all sides; the rain-drop is received, with natural ease.
ਜਲਹੀਤੇਸਭਊਪਜੈਬਿਨੁਜਲਪਿਆਸਨਜਾਇ॥
Jal hī ṯe sabẖ ūpjai bin jal pi▫ās na jā▫e.
From water, everything is produced; without water, thirst is not quenched.
ਨਾਨਕਹਰਿਜਲੁਜਿਨਿਪੀਆਤਿਸੁਭੂਖਨਲਾਗੈਆਇ॥੫੫॥
Nānak har jal jin pī▫ā ṯis bẖūkẖ na lāgai ā▫e. ||55||
O Nanak, whoever drinks in the Water of the Lord, shall never feel hunger again. ||55||
ਬਾਬੀਹਾਤੂੰਸਹਜਿਬੋਲਿਸਚੈਸਬਦਿਸੁਭਾਇ॥
Bābīhā ṯūŉ sahj bol sacẖai sabaḏ subẖā▫e.
O rainbird, speak the Shabad, the True Word of God, with natural peace and poise.
ਸਭੁਕਿਛੁਤੇਰੈਨਾਲਿਹੈਸਤਿਗੁਰਿਦੀਆਦਿਖਾਇ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯerai nāl hai saṯgur ḏī▫ā ḏikẖā▫e.
Everything is with you; the True Guru will show you this.
ਆਪੁਪਛਾਣਹਿਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁਮਿਲੈਵੁਠਾਛਹਬਰਲਾਇ॥
Āp pacẖẖāṇėh parīṯam milai vuṯẖā cẖẖahbar lā▫e.
So understand your own self, and meet your Beloved; His Grace shall rain down in torrents.
ਝਿਮਿਝਿਮਿਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁਵਰਸਦਾਤਿਸਨਾਭੁਖਸਭਜਾਇ॥
Jẖim jẖim amriṯ varasḏā ṯisnā bẖukẖ sabẖ jā▫e.
Drop by drop, the Ambrosial Nectar rains down softly and gently; thirst and hunger are completely gone.
ਕੂਕਪੁਕਾਰਨਹੋਵਈਜੋਤੀਜੋਤਿਮਿਲਾਇ॥
Kūk pukār na hova▫ī joṯī joṯ milā▫e.
Your cries and screams of anguish have ceased; your light shall merge into the Light.
ਨਾਨਕਸੁਖਿਸਵਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਸੋਹਾਗਣੀਸਚੈਨਾਮਿਸਮਾਇ॥੫੬॥
Nānak sukẖ savniĥ sohāgaṇī sacẖai nām samā▫e. 
O Nanak, the happy soul-brides sleep in peace; they are absorbed in the True Name. 
ਧੁਰਹੁਖਸਮਿਭੇਜਿਆਸਚੈਹੁਕਮਿਪਠਾਇ॥
Ḏẖarahu kẖasam bẖeji▫ā sacẖai hukam paṯẖā▫e.
The Primal Lord and Master has sent out the True Hukam of His Command.

Peace comes to the blessed with the Grace of The Supreme Lord and Spirit. What was the yearning, the desire to meet The Lord professed by the Guru, the eternal soul, the higher self, mans universal Spirit from where he emerged and whereto he will return.

To imply religion, Sikhism cannot be undermined is to be delusional. To infer this can be exacted easily is a falsehood. There is a danger readily addressed and eliminated when the mind of the collective Sangat is awakened and vigilant.


ਪਾਪੀਕਰਮਕਮਾਵਦੇਕਰਦੇਹਾਏਹਾਇ॥
Pāpī karam kamāvḏe karḏe hā▫e hā▫e.
The sinners act, and generate bad karma, and then they weep and wail.
ਨਾਨਕਜਿਉਮਥਨਿਮਾਧਾਣੀਆਤਿਉਮਥੇਧ੍ਰਮਰਾਇ॥੯॥
Nānak ji▫o mathan māḏẖāṇī▫ā ṯi▫o mathe ḏẖaram rā▫e. ||9||
O Nanak, just as the churning stick churns the butter, so does the Righteous Judge of Dharma churn them. ||9||
ਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਇਨਿਸਾਜਨਾਜਨਮਪਦਾਰਥੁਜੀਤਿ॥
Nām ḏẖi▫ā▫in sājnā janam paḏārath jīṯ.
Meditating on the Naam, O friend, the treasure of life is won.
ਨਾਨਕਧਰਮਐਸੇਚਵਹਿਕੀਤੋਭਵਨੁਪੁਨੀਤ॥੧੦॥
Nānak ḏẖaram aise cẖavėh kīṯo bẖavan punīṯ. ||10||
O Nanak, speaking in Righteousness, one's world becomes sanctified. ||10||
ਖੁਭੜੀਕੁਥਾਇਮਿਠੀਗਲਣਿਕੁਮੰਤ੍ਰੀਆ॥
Kẖubẖ▫ṛī kuthā▫e miṯẖī galaṇ kumanṯarī▫ā.
I am stuck in an evil place, {?}trusting the sweet words of evil counsel.
ਨਾਨਕਸੇਈਉਬਰੇਜਿਨਾਭਾਗੁਮਥਾਹਿ॥੧੧॥
Nānak se▫ī ubre jinā bẖāg mathāhi. 
O Nanak, they alone are saved, who have such good destiny inscribed upon their foreheads. 

As a kamal bighasan, in midst of the den of iniquity, of changing culturalism, of false indoctrination, and mediating corruption, he minds of the pure remains steadfast, with the sword of righteous might, ones honour is preserved, ‘’Jab mushkil hove aat bhari, Nanak sang tere sahai’’ . Righteous moral souls who dwell and are focused upon light, do not fear its fearsome power of sin destruction, being pure of heart, in their loneliest hour of suffering, remain upright and prosper.

[/FONT]


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## pk70 (Apr 20, 2009)

*I have done what I felt right, thanks any way.*

*Regards*


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## spnadmin (Apr 20, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> singh ji
> 
> thank you for your encouraging comments. You surely have a great future ahead of you.
> 
> ...



amarsanghera ji

This is what I *thought *:roll: the thread would discuss. There is a *TOS* here at SPN -- "no undermining of Sikhism." The question was raised by forum member Bhagat Singh ji: Just what does that mean? The question was raised on an unrelated thread and I suggested to Bhagat ji that he start a thread about this. The point of view would be: what do members consider "undermining sikhism." My idea was a real dud! So far no sugestions. I apologize to you for wasting your time and patience.

Fateh!
Antonia


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 21, 2009)

aad ji

thanks..i am never worthy of an apology from you.

i think what bhagat is asking is :

undermining the "religion" sikhism?

or undermining the teachings of the Gurus as enshrined in SGGS - the Sikhi way?


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## spnadmin (Apr 21, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> aad ji
> 
> thanks..i am never worthy of an apology from you.
> 
> ...



amarsanghera ji

Those would also be relevant and interesting questions.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

Dear All,
Does this count as "undermining" sikhism ?
Some on this Forum espouse the very same points about the 5Ks...."useless and should be shunned".
Just for INFORMATION.

5 Ks-DHARI GRANTHIS IN DHOTIS / ANGVASTRAMS : A WHISPER FROM ETERNITY | Sangh Parivar
*5 Ks-DHARI GRANTHIS IN DHOTIS / ANGVASTRAMS : A WHISPER FROM ETERNITY*

         Submitted by sarvasankalpasa... on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 12:17.         

HAR HAR MAHADEV I
 ​ Kesha, Kacchhaa, Karaa, Krpaan and Kanghaa are the symbols of the so-called Sikh sect, founded by Shri GuruGovind Singh who happened to be a highly revered patriot, saint, scholar, a legendary renunciator and one of the greatest protectors of the Hindu-s in Bharatvarsha. This great soul, a great son of Bharatvarsha propounded the sect for the same cause, for the same reason for which Swami Ramakrishna Paramhamsa incarnated in this country, for which Swami Vivekananda took up the cudgels, for which Dr. Hedgewar offered himself as an oblation into the flaring crucible of patriotism through Bharatiyataa, for which Netaji Bose shook the British empire, for which Martyrs Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Sukhdev and Azad hanged themselves, for which Martyr Udham Singh knocked the brains out of the head of Micheal O'Dyer...Veer Savarkar...Mangal Pandey..it is a long story to recount.
 5 Ks were the foundation of a martial group focused on protecting Hindu-s from the brutalities of those oppressors who came from abroad with very wrong intentions. They accomplished their objectives with great finesse, earning a highly venerable slot in the history of contemporary Bharatvarsha by resisting effectively and neutralising those evil forces. After attainment of the political freedom from the foreign rulers, a unified country was carved out based on democratic ideals wherein equality before law was constitutionally assured. All the martial groups were supposed to have been sustituted by the armed forces, then.
 This group of 5 Ks was neither merged nor disbanded. Instead, it was rechristened as a separate religion with completely independent moorings and race !!! Sikhs as a different race ??? How absurd !!! Out of the 5 Ks, every Hindu is a Keshdhari, every Hindu wears Kacchhaa, innumerable Hindu-s sport Karaa for various reasons, Krpaan had been a common weapon of defence for innumerable Hindu-s and every Keshdhari Hindu uses Kanghaa for grooming his hairline...carrying Hindu names and castes, in what way are they different from the mainstream (?) Hindu-s ?? Which page of the Guru Grantha  Saheb does not bear the names of Ram, Krsna or Shiva ? *The great saint Guru Nanak was an ardent devotee of Bhagawan Shiva and the Golden Temple at Amritsar is His revered seat, A SHIVALAYA for sure !!!* That was the very foundation on the basis of which Master Tara Singh was firmly rebuffed by the first Union Home Minister Sardar Patel, on his demand of a Panjabi Suba.
 The 5 Ks, after losing their relevance and utility in the present context, drifted towards separatism and isolationism, a development that was extremely unfortunate. Our western enemies thrived on that, leading to the rivers of Hindu ( so-called Sikhs included ) blood flowing through the land of Panjab, sacred for reasons very much different from these.
 The 5 Ks have been giving rise to another group of hurdles for them. *Almost everywhere in the world, they are suspects owing to the rising prevalence of terrorism*. In several cases, they are suspected as Osama Bin Laden, mobbed and lynched to the utter mortification of the symbols of the so-called Sikhism. In France, so-called Sikh school-kids have been hounded out of their schools. In the United Kingdom, they had to resort to litigation for ensuring 'turban-rights'. In New Zealand too, they are at Krpan-drawn with the Government authorities.  
 The so-called Sikh community must now gradually move towards merging their identities, alongwith their symbols into the non-sectarian, mainstream Hindu fold. They have been strayed away far too long. Sectarianism and isolationism cause decay while broadbased mainstreaming leads to all round nurturing, consolidation and resurgence. The evil of sectarianism has brought all round disaster to the muslims so much so that innumerable of them have been cursing their fate, as to why they were born as muslims at all !! Nowdays, it is not very difficult to spot such grieving muslims.
 The 5 Ks may continue over and above the elegant Dhoti-s and Angvastram-s, adorned with Tripunda Tilakam.* Let it be mandatory for all Granthi-s in all Gurudwara-s of the world to sport Dhoti-s and Angvastram-s, instead of the muslim outfit of Kurta/Payjama. Wherever prohibited, they should shun turban.*This symbolism shall go a long way in the right direction. I would like to see more and more so-called Sikhs visiting temples, conducting Puja, with or without turban, with or without the 5 Ks in this Bharatiya outfit. Hindu-s have already been flocking to Gurudwara-s in hordes hence, there is no sense in advising them anything in this regard.
 I SHALL CONTINUE TO HOLD MY UNFULFILLED DESIRE OF BEHOLDING A DHOTI-CLAD 'SIKH' WITH ANGVASTRAM & TURBAN !!!

 VANDE MATARAM I
 RAMAKANT TIWARI


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## dalbirk (Apr 22, 2009)

Gyani Ji ,
             This is the hidden danger of what so many so-called Moderate Sikhs believe in the interpretation of ' HINDU ' by RSS . RSS seems to preach that all the religions who took birth in India r Hindus means INDIC religions . In this way Buddhism , Jainism & Sikhism r INDIC ( Hindu ) religions . RSS preaches that all these Hindu religions r separate independent religions but different from Islam & Christianity (Semitic ) religions since they were born outside India & r such foreign to the culture & history of India , means they r outsiders whereas INDIC religions r insiders . 
              But in reality RSS's motto is ' HINDI , HINDU , HINDUSTAN ' . This directly shows the game plan of RSS . Regarding Sikhism which is the only surviving religion after the fall of Buddhism & Jainism ( they r into all Hindu traditions only now 100 % of them ) their plan of action is to undermine Punjabi language , 5Ks ( through media & Hindu education institutions ) , independence of Sikh religion by linking Japuji to Upnishads , SGGS as the extract of Vedas , undermining the authority of Akal Takhat Sahib by preaching equal importance of Five Takhats by giving undue importance to Patna Sahib , Hazur Sahib , popularisation of Dasham Granth by giving it more importance than SGGS , parralel Prakash of DG & finally undermining Sikh Rehat maryada so that the unity of Sikh Panth may be broken & hundreds of smaller groups may be formed ( It is happening already ) which have their own respective Maryada , everybody telling his Maryada to be true & real .Sikhs can take these points as bench mark for checking the affiliation of any group . Remember there r Congress backed groups also who pass off Atheist ( Communist ) ideology as TAT-GURMAT . So whole of Deredaars & groups r divided into two groups  Pro-Congress & Pro-RSS(BJP) , since PS Badal is busy keeping throne warm for his son , there is no third group in existence now , with a few exceptions .


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## spnadmin (Apr 22, 2009)

Finally we are talking about Sikhism :happy:


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