# How Can His Own Creation Become Chains?



## pk70 (Feb 9, 2009)

* HOW CAN HIS OWN CREATION BECOME CHAINS?  *

*Guru Nanak walked on the stage of the world when people were being exploited in the name of Devi /Devtas and religious mandatory rituals to gain some thing here or hereafter (sadly today in some Sikh-groups the same exploitation has been started). Besides, there were other sectarian ideologies that would impress the people to take advantage of them; those ideologies were advocated by those who were known as “detached Saints” and “Yogis”. Interestingly Guru Nanak addressed all of these groups and asked the public to get rid of fear of any kind by becoming worthy of Him through mediating on the Creator only.  Boldly Guru suggests that the Lord is not pleased with these things but with sincere love a soul should harbor for Him while living right in His created world. In His created world there is so much tempting and luring stuff, people need to be counseled about how to keep love for the Lord intact, Guru does that too perfectly. Abandoning of His created world was done already by Sanyaasis and Yogis, and it was against Guru Nanak’s belief; so how to stay above the influence of Maya that takes over the soul and hinders it to fall for its origin?*
*One needs a True Guru who has experienced the Lord, Sree Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru of Sikhs, they should live by Guru’s Teachings by pondering over Guru-Shabad.  In the following Vaakas, Guru Nanak says that only who faithfully follow Guru can know the Lord. Next Guru Vaak says that all pain and sorrows disappear as one gets absorbed in Guru shabad, please read on. All this is a serious commitment not a mere talk.*
*ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਇਕਤੁਕੀ **॥ **ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਜਾਨੈ **॥ **ਦੂਖੁ ਮਿਟੈ ਸਚੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਨੈ **॥**੧**॥ *
*Āsā mėhlā 1 ikṯukī. **Gur seve so ṯẖākur jānai. **Ḏūkẖ mitai sacẖ sabaḏ pacẖẖānai. ||1||   (SGGS 416) *
*Asa 1st Guru. Ek Tuki. **He, who serves (follows strictly Guru)the Guru, knows the Lord. **By recognising the true Name his pain vanishes( WHoThrough guru Teachings recognizes the Lord, gets rid of pain etc) *
*ਜੇਹੜਾ**ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ (ਹਰ**ਥਾਂ ਵਿਆਪਕ) ਜਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ**ਰਾਹੀਂ (ਹਰ ਥਾਂ) ਪਛਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਤੇ (ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ) ਦੁੱਖ ਮਿਟ**ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ**।**੧**। *
*Now the question is how this miracle can happen?  It is almost like standing in the rain and trying to stay wet without umbrella or other accessory. All Guru Followers are trying to act as per Guru Shabad, they take Hukamnama every day, teach themselves what Guru wants from them and bow in respect to be obedient but still their percentage of failure to realize the Lord is alarming. Why it is so, what goes wrong in the lives of even sincere Guru Followers? Read what Guru ji is saying*
*ਰਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਸਖੀ ਸਖੈਨੀ **॥ **ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨੈਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ *
*Rām japahu merī sakẖī sakẖainī. **Saṯgur sev ḏekẖhu parabẖ nainī. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*Meditate on the Lord, O my Mate and friend. **By serving the True Guru, thou shalt see the Lord with thine eyes. Pause. *
*ਹੇ**ਮੇਰੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ! (ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਸੰਗੀਓ!) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੋ**, **ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਹੋਈ** (**ਇਹ) ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ**, **ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਭਜਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ) ਤੁਸੀ** (**ਹਰ ਥਾਂ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰੋਗੇ**।**੧**।**ਰਹਾਉ**। *
*Constant paath are being done, meditation is done, Ram-simran is done, and new wave of prabhat-feri is done by chanting the praise of the Lord through Gurbani Simran early in the morning. Why still fall after fall is what we experience. Seeing the Lord, appears to be just a dream but Guru ji says one can see Him with eyes. Now read the next Guru Vaak, carefully and try to understand what Guru ji is trying to say by keeping in mind that never ever Guru advises us to abandon His created creation. That is the concept of Gurmat, let me quote Guru vaak in this context too “**ਹਸੰਦਿਆ**ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ **॥**੨**11 (SGGS522)
**Hasan**ḏ**i▫ā k**ẖ**elan**ḏ**i▫ā painan**ḏ**i▫ā k**ẖ**āvan**ḏ**i▫ā vic**ẖ**e hovai muka**ṯ**. ||2||
**While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||
**ਮਃ **5 *
*Alright, now read the following Guru Vaak*
*ਬੰਧਨ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ **॥ **ਬੰਧਨ ਸੁਤ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਨਾਰਿ **॥**੨**॥ *
*Banḏẖan māṯ piṯā sansār. **Banḏẖan suṯ kanniā ar nār. ||2|| *
*Entanglements are mother, father and the world. **Entanglement are sons, daughters and wife. *
*(**ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਮਾਂ**, **ਪਿਉ**, **ਪੁੱਤਰ**, **ਧੀ ਅਤੇ ਵਹੁਟੀ (ਮੋਹ ਦੇ) ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਣ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ**।**੨**। *
*Have a deep breath and think about it. Is Guru indicating to abandon family? If not why he is saying that family could be an entanglement? Doesn’t he want us to have family life?  Yes he does. To understand what actually Guru is saying, try to comprehend the application of an example I am giving here. Imagine we are sitting in a car and ready to go, our father walks to us and advises us “Drive carefully, cars can kill too” Our father is not saying to get rid of the car or abandon it to find another safe transportation, he is simply asking us to be careful and make sure it should not lead to a tragedy in heckles driving”. That is what Guru says here. If the family peruses one to go astray, inspires to lose virtues one is trying to acquire, demands to lose truth for false things, it is the chain in soul’s progression. Same thing is applicable to all other stuff. I would like to quote Tenth Nanak here who literally lived this concept to inspire his followers to follow him. When all children and mother along with a lot of true Guru Followers were lost, Guru moved on his mission without letting this tragedy a hindrance to progress on a path to guide the followers to be self defendant and to be ready to praise the Lord in all circumstances. Here what I mean is that Guru didn’t let the separation of members of family along with true followers, be a chain.  Following Lord’s Ordinance in all circumstances was his priority. Always his concentration remained on Him while obeying His Ordinance without any regret or sorrow; this was an exemplary living to inspire followers. Life has a purpose that is to live in His love by obeying His Ordinance, good and bad things occur as a part of it, why any thing should detour the mind away from the Lord? When we do, what do we establish any way?*
*In the next Guru Vak, Guru talks about things we believe will bring us close to the Lord, actually they also end up becoming chains in progression towards the Lord because Guru already states that Lord’s language is love, to see him, Guru Teachings must be followed and as a result of it, one should live in His love. Why to be slave of these religious ceremonies then? Look at them; they are performed to satisfy “ME” or other spectators.  All such rituals are entanglements which do not let the soul to be faithful in love of the Lord. When one is fallen in love with other one, how one can stay in love with the Lord? One can say that it is possible but actually it is not true. It could be any thing but true love. If falling in love with the Lord doesn’t create stillness in our mind, it is not love. It is a division of the heart, when Guru asks to love the Lord only, he is meant by single mindedly, the division triggers duality and doubt. Others for who we really fall are right here close to us, Lord is not even visible to given eyes. You see what is weighing more in the game of love?  The ones we see around weigh more than the Lord in this game of love. If any one is aware of the enlightened ones confessions, can understand this truth why they say all the time “where ever I see, I see the Lord” It is not an ordinary state of mind. Another reason, Guru calls dual love a chain in this context because due to duality, even if we want to love Lord still we fail to love. So it is a commitment, a serious one. It is the weight we should give to the love of the Lord that is important.*
*ਬੰਧਨ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਹਉ ਕੀਆ **॥ **ਬੰਧਨ ਪੁਤੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਮਨਿ ਬੀਆ **॥**੩**॥ *
*Banḏẖan karam ḏẖaram ha▫o kī▫ā. **Banḏẖan puṯ kalaṯ man bī▫ā. ||3|| *
*Entanglements are the religious ceremonies, performed through pride. **Entanglement are the sons, wife and another's love in the mind. *
*(**ਸਿਮਰਨ**ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਰਸਮਾਂ ਬੰਧਨ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ**, (**ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਾਣ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਸਭ**ਕੁਝ) **'**ਮੈਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ**, **ਮੈਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ**'**। **ਜੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ)**ਦੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਹੈ**, **ਤਾਂ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਵਹੁਟੀ (ਦਾ ਰਿਸ਼ਤਾ ਭੀ) ਬੰਧਨਾਂ (ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ)**ਹੈ**।**੩**। *
*Now Guru ji has started defining the entanglements. Take example of a farmer and a king. Both are entangled in their professions due to some thing, that is the lack of longing for the Lord. Any work without practicing Lord’s love, the ego of deeds punishes the soul by taking it away from the Lord. This idea becomes clear in the next Guru Vaak where Guru ji stresses on what is missing.*
*ਬੰਧਨ ਕਿਰਖੀ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਰਸਾਨ **॥ **ਹਉਮੈ ਡੰਨੁ ਸਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਦਾਨ **॥**੪**॥ *
*Banḏẖan kirkẖī karahi kirsān. **Ha▫umai dann sahai rājā mangai ḏān. ||4|| *
*Entanglement is the cultivation done by the cultivators. **For his ego man suffers punishment, and the King demands penalty from him.( Actually means King also suffers at the hands of ego) *
*ਕਿਸਾਨ** (**ਆਜੀਵਕਾ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਖੇਤੀ-ਵਾਹੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਕਰਨੀ ਭੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ**, **ਪਰ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ**ਇਹ ਖੇਤੀ-ਵਾਹੀ) ਬੰਧਨ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ**। **ਰਾਜਾ (ਕਿਸਾਨਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ) ਮਾਮਲਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ**।** (**ਪਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਰਾਜਾ ਹੀ) ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀ ਸਜ਼ਾ ਭੁਗਤਦਾ ਹੈ**।**੪**। *
*The stress Guru ji gives is on “unvichari” which means something done without contemplating on the Lord, so farming, ruling and trading if done without contemplating on the Lord is a sheer entanglement which will bind the soul with Maya-love and the union with the Lord will be pushed far away. It is a mounting love in duality. It is the trap soul enjoys but never realizes the precious time of loving Lord flawlessly has been robbed off.*
*ਬੰਧਨ ਸਉਦਾ ਅਣਵੀਚਾਰੀ **॥ **ਤਿਪਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹ ਪਸਾਰੀ **॥**੫**॥ *
*Banḏẖan sa▫uḏā aṇvīcẖārī. **Ŧipaṯ nāhī mā▫i▫ā moh pasārī. ||5|| *
*Entanglement is trade without God's meditation. **The mortal is not satisfied with the extension of worldly love. ( In simple words as one doesn’t remember the Lord, Maya influences take over the soul and there is no end to desires)  *
*(**ਵਪਾਰੀ)**ਵਪਾਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਇਹ ਵਪਾਰ ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਹੈ**, (**ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦੇ ਖਿਲਾਰੇ ਵਿਚ (ਇਤਨਾ ਫਸਦਾ ਹੈ**ਕਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਲੋਂ) ਰੱਜਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ**।**੫**। *
*The source of all things to get in our hands is the wealth, the Rich bankers procure it even they know that it will perish or left behind as they depart from here, it is a lure of it that accelerates within, this change the course and purpose of the life. Thinking is changed. One engrossed in wealth thinks, “If it goes so what, when it is in my hands, if I want anything, I can obtain it, my next generation doesn’t need to struggle”. Though in History there are examples to prove this notion wrong but that is the feed it gives to the soul to keep playing this wealth gathering game, and that is the trap. That is the story of the mind that demands more and more of it. Who just perform the duty for living and remain contented, their mind’s longing for it diminishes and longing for the Lord increases. Guru says without the devotion of the Lord, what is the use of gathering of wealth if the soul is not accepted by the Creator? We think otherwise “if we get this we will establish that and so on” unfortunately the given time we have keeps lapsing.*
*ਬੰਧਨ ਸਾਹ ਸੰਚਹਿ ਧਨੁ ਜਾਇ **॥ **ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਪਵਈ ਥਾਇ **॥**੬**॥ *
*Banḏẖan sāh saŉcẖėh ḏẖan jā▫e. **Bin har bẖagaṯ na pav▫ī thā▫e. ||6|| *
*Entanglement is the perishable wealth, which the bankers amass. **Without God's meditation, the mortal becomes not acceptable(by the Lord). *
*ਸ਼ਾਹ-ਸੌਦਾਗਰ** (**ਸੌਦਾਗਰੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ) ਧਨ ਇਕੱਠਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ**, **ਧਨ (ਆਖ਼ਰ) ਸਾਥ ਛੱਡ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਪਰ ਨਾਮ**ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਧਨ) ਬੰਧਨ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ**। **ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ**ਕੋਈ ਉੱਦਮ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀਆਂ ਨਜ਼ਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ) ਪਰਵਾਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ**।**੬**। *
*Now Guru ji addresses the debating scriptures, that can also be entanglement because ego is fed through arguing on them. During debate instead of searching the truth, debater wastes much time in proving “What I said is the final truth” In that situation, ego plays a vital role. Guru ji warns about this practice of arguments too. In worldly love one is prone to fall for vices and sins. Think about the time that can be used in love of our Lord, and try to realize how that is passed in other pursuits; we never even realize how big loss we are having.*
*ਬੰਧਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬਾਦੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ **॥ **ਬੰਧਨਿ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ **॥**੭**॥ *
*Banḏẖan beḏ bāḏ ahaŉkār. **Banḏẖan binsai moh vikār. ||7|| *
*Entanglement are Vedas, religious discussions and pride. **By the entanglements of worldly love and sins, the man perishes. *
* (**ਸਿਮਰਨ**ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਵੇਦ-ਪਾਠ ਤੇ ਵੇਦ-ਰਚਨਾ ਭੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਹੈ**। **ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਹੈ**।**ਮੋਹ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਵਿਚ (ਫਸ ਕੇ) ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ**ਹੈ**।**੭**। *
*In the end of Guru Shabad, the refuge of the Lord is declared as the only source of getting rid of all kinds of entanglements. True Guru makes the soul aware about all this and advises to be careful lest they should hinder spiritual progression for union with the Lord. Guru infuses a new thinking to build a new approach towards His creation in such a way that it should not entangle us in them; instead it should be helpful. How it can be helpful when often it entangles us? As one pursues virtues, one gets opportunity to practice them right in His creation to inspire others to follow a virtuous path. It is only possible if one is aware of the fact that these things can become chains to stop our union with the Lord if one gives in to temptations they generate. Let me put in other words, just think it is a test to pass given by the Lord.*
*ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ **॥ **ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਬੰਧੁ ਨ ਪਾਈ **॥**੮**॥**੧੦**॥ *
*Nānak rām nām sarṇā▫ī. **Saṯgur rākẖe banḏẖ na pā▫ī. ||8||10|| *
*Nanak has sought the protection of the Lord's Name. **He, whom the True Guru saves, suffers no entanglement. *
*ਹੇ**ਨਾਨਕ! ਜੇਹੜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੀ ਹਰੇਕ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਤ-ਕਾਰ ਵਿਚ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ**ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ**, **ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੋਹ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਰੱਖ ਲਿਆ (ਸਮਝੋ)**ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਬੰਧਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ**।**੮**।**੧੦**। *
*Just think that Lord has provided all His creation to pass our given life interestingly, however, make sure, as we have a given time, none of His given gifts should tempt us to turn our backs towards the Gift Giver.*
*ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ **॥**੨**॥ (SGGS14)
**Maṯ ḏekẖ bẖūlā vīsrai ṯerā cẖiṯ na āvai nā▫o. ||2|| 
**May it not be that on beholding then I may go amiss, forget Thee and remember not Thy Name.*

*Please read the following Pauri(Stanza) By Guru Nanak(Asa Dee Vaar), it literally defines Guru’s complete concept of Gurmat after one understands Mool Matra in Sree Guru Granth Sahib*
*ਪਉੜੀ **॥ **ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ **॥ **ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਓਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ **॥ **ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸਦਾ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ **॥ **ਉਤਮੁ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਚੇ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ **॥ **ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਪਾਇਆ **॥**੬**॥ *
*Pa▫oṛī. **Bin saṯgur kinai na pā▫i▫o bin saṯgur kinai na pā▫i▫ā. **Saṯgur vicẖ āp rakẖi▫on kar pargat ākẖ suṇā▫i▫ā. **Saṯgur mili▫ai saḏā mukaṯ hai jin vicẖahu moh cẖukā▫i▫ā. **Uṯam ehu bīcẖār hai jin sacẖe si▫o cẖiṯ lā▫i▫ā. **Jagjīvan ḏāṯā pā▫i▫ā. ||6|| *
*Pauri. **Without the True Guru none has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, none has obtained the Lord. **In the True Guru, the Lord has placed Himself, and I openly declare and proclaim it. **Salvation is obtained for aye, by meeting the True Guru, who has banished worldly attachment from within him. **The excellent idea (theme) is this that one attaches one's mind to the True Lord. **Like this, one attains the Beneficent Lord, the Life of the world. *
*Without True Guru the Lord is not realized as the Lord Himself glows within Guru, who meet Guru( not just physical meeting but who strictly live as instructed by Guru), one is liberated as all kind of entanglements vanish including love for the self that detours the soul from the path of the Lord.. The Master of the world is obtained through True Guru by getting absorbed in the Lord.*

*G Singh*


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## pk70 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Guru Instruction to have and serve Guru
*
*ਮਃ ੩ **॥ **ਗੁਰ ਸਭਾ ਏਵ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾ ਨੇੜੈ ਨਾ ਦੂਰਿ **॥ **ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਤਾਂ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਹਦੂਰਿ **॥**੨**॥ *
*Mėhlā 3. **Gur sabẖā ev na pā▫ī▫ai nā neṛai nā ḏūr. **Nānak saṯgur ṯāŉ milai jā man rahai haḏūr. ||2|| *
*Third Mehl: **The Society(Company) of the Guru is not obtained  by trying to be near or far away(to the Guru). **O Nanak, you shall meet the True Guru, if your mind remains in His Presence. (mind remains committed to Guru Teachings)||2|| *
*(**ਸਰੀਰ* *ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਜਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਦੂਰ ਬੈਠਿਆਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਨਹੀਂ* *ਹੁੰਦਾ**। **ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਦੋਂ (ਸਿੱਖ ਦਾ) ਮਨ (ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ)* *ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ**।**੨**। *


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 10, 2009)

Mortal man struggle in his existence to subsist by his own wit and guile requiring the assistance of others in his life, there are mortals making demands of their own, of the community, of the world at large for rights deserved they consider denied to them that, there are beings who suffer great trials, hardship, pain and suffering with the utmost dignity and aplomb, without erring from their faith or belief in the triumphing of good and the Wahegurus Supreme will over the negative forces causing such emotional trauma and domestic upheaval. Then they are the blessed strong, the kings of their own mind and soul and leading lights of their communities, beings who are able to govern their happy and prospering households, whilst managing businesses, maintain harmonious relationships with their extended family’s and communities and mindful of world affairs, those blessed souls with a God consciousness, a consciousness giving consideration to all, being fair in their judgments to all without compromise to integrity, honour and standards. There are such great souls able to stand in times many are led as sheep by ill intentioned purveyors of scandal, demagoguery and sin nature. In these times when such rogues are the majority and reign thereby these Spirits of honour and might are as their Supreme Lord, standing head and shoulders to their beliefs, the beliefs of the ancient forefathers enduring and eternal, albeit temporarily discarded in favour of more luminous and popularised paths of idolatry meanderings. These are the upholders of the Lord Almighty’s empire perceived in these ties as under siege, crumbling and undermined. It is at this time, sayeth Guru Gobind when it is no longer a battle of right and wrong, but a war of wills, the good and loving superior will under attack from the manipulation and engineering of the lower ardent negative will, the cause of confusion, the web of deceit and net of entanglement creating chaos and profiting from the furore and division that ensues, fanning the flames of the fiery furnace of hell to warm their own interests whilst burning humanity in pain and suffering. Humanity is as gold, the pure become brighter and purer, the evil are reduced to ashes whilst the dual natured and minded battle with fury and wrath the good and the upholders of the truth. This concocted confusion is perplexing to the ordinary man, and thus the fire of hell has raged since the fall into decline of the race of man. Mankind has sought to escape entrapment of the sins natures exposing him to control by the will of paap. That is mans struggle and the illusory world where not all is what it may superficially appear to be. Accountability and responsibility are nonexistent as the word itself is contorted to suppress its faithful in poverty and struggle subjecting it to the onslaughts of the very demagogues it seeks to destroy. Were God, the Almighty Waheguru to fall into his own creation and endeavour to lead it, whether in sackcloth as a pauper he would be known by his thinking but be destroyed by the urgent and frenzied need to chain and oppress him for the fears and needs of the lowest order of ignorant being. That is the Creators Spirit and creation in chains. To live and let be causes the rise of such prevarications and immoral perversity, to battle one is accused of intolerance or of being judgmental. Let he who hath wisdom and integrity judge, and may humanity in silence, by their silent adherence to the word of truth, the spirit of love, and the will to global peace in silent spiritual supplication submit their will to the collective and greater good of virtue, honour and peace ...

*Karau benanti sunoh mera mita, sant tahal ki bela.*
*I plead, listen and heed my friend, this time opportune the saints*

*Iha kaht chaloh Har laha, agai basan suhela.*
*Earn divine profits in the world, that days be in comfort and peace.*

*Aud ghatai dins rainare.*
*The days grow narrow and shorten with time.*

*Eh sansar bikar sanse maih, tario Brahm Giani.*
*This evil world be destroyed by a breath, may the saint ly alone triumph.*

*Jisai jagae piave eh ras, akath katha tin jani.*
*The awakened soul alone, imbued with the nectar of the Lords name, realises his precious Lord. ...*

{There is a gap between the first two lines. The demon of typography seems to be rife this morn, I simply cannot correct it.}


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## pk70 (Feb 10, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


>



Mortal man struggle in his existence to subsist by his own wit and guile requiring the assistance of others in his life, there are mortals making demands of their own, of the community, of the world at large for rights deserved they consider denied to them that, there are beings who suffer great trials, hardship, pain and suffering with the utmost dignity and aplomb, without erring from their faith or belief in the triumphing of good and the Wahegurus Supreme will over the negative forces causing such emotional trauma and domestic upheaval[/FONT]
*Guru Nanak is (was) very well aware of this but still he honors His Ordinance unlike others as he has the ability of seeing and observing the complete show run by WAHEGURU in which the negativity builds the path of positive environments too, History verifies this. All you talk about is a part of it, besides a lot of collisions are going in the space, some are noticed and some are not under His Ordinance. [/FONT]*
 [/FONT]
. Then they are the blessed strong, the kings of their own mind and soul and leading lights of their communities, beings who are able to govern their happy and prospering households, whilst managing businesses, maintain harmonious relationships with their extended family’s and communities and mindful of world affairs, those blessed souls with a God consciousness, a consciousness giving consideration to all, being fair in their judgments to all without compromise to integrity, honour and standards.[/FONT]
 [/FONT]
*Well that is your views but Guru Nanak says this in contexts of your champions[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]*
*ਭਗਤਾ ਤੈ ਸੈਸਾਰੀਆ* *ਜੋੜੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਇਆ **॥
**B**ẖ**ag**ṯ**ā **ṯ**ai saisārī▫ā jo**ṛ** ka**ḏ**e na ā▫i▫ā.
**Between the Lord's devotees and the people of the world, there can never be any (true) alliance.
**ਮਃ **1  (SGGS 145)*
*Why? Because their goals are different.**[/FONT]*
 [/FONT]
*Karau benanti sunoh mera mita, sant tahal ki bela.*
[/FONT]*I plead, listen and heed my friend, this time opportune the saints*
* Kindly note it down, those who are successful as per intellectuals are not even worthy to have company or service as per above Vaak, points is made clear in the next Vaak
 Iha kaht chaloh Har laha, agai basan suhela.*
[/FONT]*Earn divine profits in the world, that days be in comfort and peace.*
[/FONT]*First of all, translation is misleading, in this Vaak, a seeker’s advice is to procure love of the Creator, worldly profits and achievements are not worthy of any thing, profit is  “His Naam” that cures the mind, Saints are true devotees of the Creator and that is why only their company to have their guidance to follow their path  is recommended. [/FONT]*
*Aud ghatai dins rainare.*
[/FONT]*The days grow narrow and shorten with time.*
*Translation is laughable. Actually tt means by every day and night,the span of the life shortens*
*It is a warning about the nearing of death.*
[/FONT]
[/FONT]*Eh sansar bikar sanse maih, tario Brahm Giani.*
[/FONT]*This evil world be destroyed by a breath, may the saint ly alone triumph.*

 [/FONT]*Again the translation is horrible,[/FONT]*
* “Eh sansa”r= this world,  “bekar”= uselessly, “sanse maih”= in doubt, “tario”= saved or swim across successfully, “Braham gyani”= who has known the Creator. Note down, there is no word that can be translated as “evil” So what is the translator doing by using “evil” word for this world?[/FONT]*

*[/FONT]*
*In essence this Vaak means “this world is uselessly in doubt only the one who has known the Creator, has swum across (the worldly ocean).[/FONT]*
*Jisai jagae piave eh ras, akath katha tin jani.*
[/FONT]*The awakened soul alone, imbued with the nectar of the Lords name, realises his precious Lord*
*Again it is a terrible observation by the translator.*
* “ jisai jagae” To who the Lord wakes up, “piave”= receives, “eh ras”= this Nectar of His Naam, “akath katha”= inexpressible story of Waheguru, “tin”= who are awakened by the HIM, “jani”= understood.*


*In essence: Those whom the Creator wakes up (bestows His grace), receive the Nectar of His Naam,  and such persons understand the story of inexpressible Creator. Stress is on the grace of the Lord, to whom He blesses, only those fall for Him, seek company of Saints and follow only Guru and dump other intellectual ideologies to follow Guru.*
*I strongly recommend you to be aware of the translators.*[/FONT]


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 11, 2009)

*PK70 writes:- Guru Nanak is (was) very well aware of this but still he honors His Ordinance unlike others as he has the ability of seeing and observing the complete show run by WAHEGURU in which the negativity builds the path of positive environments too, History verifies this. All you talk about is a part of it, besides a lot of collisions are going in the space, some are noticed and some are not under His Ordinance.<[/FONT]*

I will tell you one thing PK70, mans understanding is limited by his own contempt and ego and the company he keeps. The foolish dwells upon the physical when unbeknown to him, Waheguru is the Spiritual Power and Energy occasioning all happening universal and individual. Guru Jji therefore cannot be greater than mans comprehension of his immenseness. If a mere miserly mortal were able to observe, perceive the inestimable grandeur of God be he is rags or riches, he would not consider himself worthy to utter his name, nor be counted amongst his sangat. It can also be said as the good and saintly follow the path writ by The Supreme Spirit, the lowly and mean of heart speak the Waheguru’s name for glory but follow the path of Kal, Satan, the cunning devil who is a master manipulator land leader astray of the weak and foolish. There are few able to integrate with all and remain true to the word, as the komal. Most betray their consort and fellowship by the folly of their words.

Yeh sanasar bikar sanse meh, tario Brahm Giani - is perfectly easy to understand. It means the awakened and pure of Spirit shall alone be saved at the times of destruction and casting into hell of the paapi, sinners and false praise singers that form the majority of the irreligious. As the Guru’s were set upon, tormented and their lives a continuous trial, whilst scoffers laugh and seek to falsify their each word, thus this reversal of fortune when restored causes mankind to fall in hell where neither Kal nor his entourage will avail them. It is an unfortunate and aptly named recurring groundhog day, but is distinguishable in its degenerative cycle. If you were to translate an english sentence word for word, you know the meaning would be partially if not entirely lost. 

Suffice to say mans understanding and comprehension of the Supreme Lord is limited nay constricted to his perception and the restrictions of his understanding. One must be free in thinking, rid of all sin nature, ego, hate and ignorance and be of pure and devout love to cleanse ones intellect and be able to fathom the Guru Nanak’s mind.


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## pk70 (Feb 11, 2009)

jeetijohal;93611[SIZE=3 said:
			
		

> . [/SIZE]



I will tell you one thing PK70, mans understanding is limited by his own contempt and ego and the company he keeps. The foolish dwells upon the physical when unbeknown to him, Waheguru is the Spiritual Power and Energy occasioning all happening universal and individual. Guru Jji therefore cannot be greater than mans comprehension of his immenseness.[/FONT]
*You have a problem to understand Guru Nanak, why I believe in his words more than yours? Answer is very simple, he experienced The Infinite and verified it, lived in it and you are barely trying to understand Him. One example of it is this that I haven’t mentioned “Guruji’s being greater than man’s comprehension” as you have stated above. Prove it. I know you cannot. So what is behind all this?  You’re being glued to what has been given to you by your environments unlike Guru who got free from it to rise above the illusions most mortal enjoy.[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]*
 If a mere miserly mortal were able to observe, perceive the inestimable grandeur of God be he is rags or riches, he would not consider himself worthy to utter his name, nor be counted amongst his sangat. It can also be said as the good and saintly follow the path writ by The Supreme Spirit, the lowly and mean of heart speak the Waheguru’s name for glory but follow the path of Kal, Satan, the cunning devil who is a master manipulator land leader astray of the weak and foolish. There are few able to integrate with all and remain true to the word, as the komal. Most betray their consort and fellowship by the folly of their words.[/FONT]
*As per Gurbani, all just act as per His command, we already spent a lot of time to discuss it, nothing appears to me which is not aligned to His command as Guru  elaborates on His Hukam and His creation[/FONT]*

Yeh sanasar bikar sanse meh, tario Brahm Giani - is perfectly easy to understand. It means the awakened and pure of Spirit shall alone be saved at the times of destruction and casting into hell of the paapi, sinners and false praise singers that form the majority of the irreligious.[/FONT]
*Brahamgyani words is what important in this context, the one who has known Him, who knows Him whom He blesses( In other Vaak), after having said that, His blessings are not restricted to only the good ones, once a mortal takes His refuge in high gravity of sincerity, there is possibility as per Gurbani that he/she could be saved; obviously who fell from His path are not certainly to suffer( Gurbani not me).[/FONT]*
 As the Guru’s were set upon, tormented and their lives a continuous trial, whilst scoffers laugh and seek to falsify their each word, thus this reversal of fortune when restored causes mankind to fall in hell where neither Kal nor his entourage will avail them.[/FONT]
*In History or in any documented papers, there is not a slight registered anger about personal pains inflicted by the ignorant on Gurus, regardless what kind of tortures and heap of difficulties Guru Sahiban went through, That alone verifies how complete understanding they had about the concept of His Ordinance(Jethe tu rakhe bekunth  tihaee-M-5) about which you often complain[/FONT]*
 It is an unfortunate and aptly named recurring groundhog day, but is distinguishable in its degenerative cycle. If you were to translate an english sentence word for word, you know the meaning would be partially if not entirely lost. [/FONT]
*Just to correct you I didn’t translate word by word as you state, please reread it again, first I tried to give meanings of all major words used in the Vaak then gave full meaning in translation as the translator did very bad job. Now I wonder, instead of noticing that why you are throwing back at me instead of grasping the meaning! Obviously you are determined to respond, it doesn’t matter if I just try to correct some thing badly incorrect.[/FONT]

*Suffice to say mans understanding and comprehension of the Supreme Lord is limited nay constricted to his perception and the restrictions of his understanding.[/FONT]
*That is more applicable to you who actually declared to be non believer; however, the enlightened ones who experienced Him are who deserve my attention.[/FONT]*
 One must be free in thinking, rid of all sin nature, ego, hate and ignorance and be of pure and devout love to cleanse ones intellect and be able to fathom the Guru Nanak’s mind.[/FONT]
*You are most welcome in this “ free thinking concept”; however, I don’t see any effort to fathom Guru Nanak on your side because always it is your thinking that is being promoted over Guru Bachan to supersede it in context of The Creator.  Good words always remain meaningless if actions are not followed to support their use. All I have tried in this thread to explain how Guru Nanak expresses priorities and guides his follower to be careful about the ditches on the way without leaving the path. If that doesn’t suite you, it’s OK but remember, it is in Gurmat Vichar section, please remain limits to its name.[/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 11, 2009)

Nanak Dukyia Sab Sansar – the reason for why the world is in chains with its spirit is illustrated by your rebuttal. Religion is plagued by small minded people who use it as a mantle than a pure truth. They cannot escape their caves of narrow minded thinking, and create complexity and mystery in the word and truth where there is none. 
All religions do this. Though Sikhism is a perfect philosophy the abrupt interpretations by some ensure the nonsensical transliteration cannot be defended by any reasonable intelligent person. What is an educated person but one trained to riposte as indoctrinated by state institutions themselves incompetent deluded fools. If they were not would we not enjoy civil peace, harmony and prosperity. 

Whether Judaism, Islam, Christianity or Sikhism, religions seems to have tormented their spiritual leaders, suppressed their spirits in order to use God, Waheguru, cast as the unknowable, unfathomable, so mysterious that he knows not even himself. I am proud of Sikhism yet they are such persons in each religion so fearful of being left behind they strangle truth and liberty and chain it to their own fears and ignorance,  encouraged by other such weak willed persons so fearful of morality and love their deride it where so it is found, unless it embraces their sin, something it cannot. The media blasphemes and has destroyed God and adorns its glorified hookers in goddess garb whilst the good and respectable are garbed in sackcloth and scandal, a sign of the times, and the ‘’Lords’’ will. 

*As always you are so wrong* and I will not bow to anything other than wisdom, reason and love. Forgive me if I offend.


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## pk70 (Feb 11, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> /quote]
> 
> Nanak Dukyia Sab Sansar – the reason for why the world is in chains with its spirit is illustrated by your rebuttal. Religion is plagued by small minded people who use it as a mantle than a pure truth. They cannot escape their caves of narrow minded thinking, and create complexity and mystery in the word and truth where there is none. [/FONT]
> *Who are these narrow minded people? Who is trying to express what Guru Message is or those who simply start teaching Gurmat without doing any effort to understand it ?[/FONT]*
> ...


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 11, 2009)

*How Can His Own Creation Become Chains?*

Your question was is The Supreme Spirit, The Creator enchained by his own creation. By your responses you have verified and illustrated that it is. The Spirit of humanity, of mankind, of the collective conscience and supreme wisdom is cast into a hell and web of complexity of the pure truth, by those who have not the mind, spirit or courage to understand it. Yes the creation holds truth and its writer to ransom, pay due reverence to the roguish and cunning demagogues presiding in power in the world societal stratum or be damned. Recitation of the word ad verbatim will not avail thee. Silence is Golden. Witch wenches unable to curry favour torment and by their tormenting will be destroyed by the very one they seek to discredit.

Why is the creator and his creation in chains...?

Duality, dual loyalties, economically weakened nations and races submitted to the demagogues in power in this age of Kalyug. Punjab remains in chains. Its oppressor Hindustan by laws of karma is under threat and subtle attack internally by states demanding equal rights from a barbaric and extremist regime itself submitted to the western will eroding its culture and civilisation through the media. If it survives the Christian invasion, Islam will take and wield power, thus it accrues by its actions the toxic fruits of its own labours. America itself stands under threat its own people awakening to the horrors committed by its government and the Black power uprising. The rulers of the US and UK exemplify what the world is at this juncture ruled by.

The oppression of the creator and its creation empowers an evil that will be vanquished by its own equally vile and sinful devious ilk. Thus the cycle of death and rebirth perpetuates ensuring only The Brahm Giani journeys through the ocean of fire safely whilst loud praise singers are cast back into hell. Should any Messiah seek to save them it is tormented and destroyed publicly by the demagogues who reward handsomely all those on its payroll, and destroy anyone who seeks to undermine their ill gotten gains. If Waheguru were alive what race, religion, caste or creed would he honour his name with, how would you know him, who would be his ally...?

Try and answer any of my points The Creator and His Creation are chained and oppressed because they are racially, religiously and nationally divided. The media and state embody the values of the Creators opposition and are united as one will to power. This is why the Creator and creation is in chains. 

Religious zealotry is alive and well in you PK70, you cannot be better than the company and counsel you keep, and I am tormented without one saviour in sight, as was Nanak before me as well you know. I do not convert and you are but a pawn of those enviers jealous of Sikhism being accorded any respect other than a small sub sect of Hinduism. I recognise my enemies and demons, you are spiritually blind, and Sikhs exemplify their religion even when cast into capture by their enemies and in chains.

Guru Nanak’s truths are absolute and pure based upon Love. Do not apply cunning by seeking to accuse me of berating One whom I have faith in and love for. Political tactics is using the trusted as a shield for one’s own sins..


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 11, 2009)

*How Can His Own Creation Become Chains?*

 In summary, the world global media are owned by a small number of very powerful men and report only what they decided to bring to the attention of the public.

The nations are all enjoined and led by the UN governed by Kofi Anand, in the pockets of the US and the UK allowing all invasions, massacres and destruction of defenceless smaller nations for payment in kind. The west terrorises whilst simultaneously accusing defenders of their faith and homeland of terrorism.

The Creators humanity and creation are oppressed by a divided religion, races, class. Messiahs bring together the Supreme Spirits humanity. Sinners not admitted no matter how loudly they sing praises rally with the state and media against any such messenger or Spirit of God. Hence the Creator and his free spirited creation are oppressed and in chains, whilst sinners are accorded freedom to pillage loot, hold captive and destroy to their hearts contents and averted from punishment by expensive lawyers.

Libel laws protect the rich demagoguery from criticism of humanities uprising, the global dismantling of blasphemy laws instigated by the US and UN Allow brutal attack upon The Creator and his Creation. Religions allow this and are discredited by the very media they consort with.

As Nanak said all are assigned a caste and station, those not accorded privilege rebel against the good. They have rebelled and now sinners have a voice whilst the wise are exiled, defamed and destroyed. Humanity will rise gain and with it it’s Creator. The above first require annihilation, difficult given consideration to their power and the poverty stricken good who seek to dismantle them. Hence the Creation and its Creator are in chains whilst the politicos control wisdom and with magikery and demonic possession force the freedom fighter fight the devils and harlots rivals, thereby doing the devils work. Who could escape this hell when one’s own controlled by the pigs in power. The battle with the maligning witches and sorcerers is the last stage of the ‘’world game’’ as you call it, men are all pawns and devices of the devils wenches...

SatYug, The Age of Aquarius is heralded, seen on the Horizon ...


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## pk70 (Feb 11, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> ..



Your question was is The Supreme Spirit,[/FONT]
*No, it is there to understand why Guru Nanak says His Creation can become entanglement in spiritual pursuit to unite with the Lord[/FONT]*
 The Creator enchained by his own creation. By your responses you have verified and illustrated that it is. [/FONT]
*No, I have proved that Guru ji is right if one intends to pursue union with the Lord but remain engrossed in Maya created by Him.[/FONT]*
* [/FONT]*
The Spirit of humanity, of mankind, of the collective conscience and supreme wisdom is cast into a hell and web of complexity of the pure truth, by those who have not the mind, spirit or courage to understand it. [/FONT]
* All this is also a part of His creation; just as negative and positive, this is the way His show continues.[/FONT]*
Yes the creation holds truth and its writer to ransom, pay due reverence to the roguish and cunning demagogues presiding in power in the world societal stratum or be damned. [/FONT]
*Not necessarily, it depends on contexts of show and actions and reactions of the participants.[/FONT]*
Recitation of the word ad verbatim will not avail thee. Silence is Golden. Witch wenches unable to curry favour torment and by their tormenting will be destroyed by the very one they seek to discredit.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
*It is here but for those who make a choice to recite it; all creatures do not go for filth as fly does.[/FONT]*
Why is the creator and his creation in chains...?[/FONT]

Duality, dual loyalties, economically weakened nations and races submitted to the demagogues in power in this age of Kalyug.[/FONT]
*It is restricted to meaning of duality in context of love for Him or for other tempting stuff. In Kalyug, saints were successful to experience Him.[/FONT]*
 [/FONT]Punjab[/FONT] remains in chains. Its oppressor [/FONT]Hindustan[/FONT] by laws of karma is under threat and subtle attack internally by states demanding equal rights from a barbaric and extremist regime itself submitted to the western will eroding its culture and civilisation through the media.[/FONT]
*That is a part of big Show, it has nothing to do with the concept of my article as I stated earlier, and Saints obtained Him in worse circumstances than [/FONT]**Punjab[/FONT]** is now.[/FONT]*
 If it survives the Christian invasion, Islam will take and wield power, thus it accrues by its actions the toxic fruits of its own labours. [/FONT]America[/FONT] itself stands under threat its own people awakening to the horrors committed by its government and the Black power uprising. The rulers of the [/FONT]US[/FONT] and [/FONT]UK[/FONT] exemplify what the world is at this juncture ruled by.[/FONT]
*All you state, I call it a part of His big show, there are good or bad participants created by the same Super Power Waheguru.[/FONT]

*The oppression of the creator and its creation empowers an evil that will be vanquished by its own equally vile and sinful devious ilk.[/FONT]
*There was no one ever existed or will exist who can be oppressor of Him, just to give you jolt of reality, as stated by the ones who experienced ones, He is bigger than your imagination-limits[/FONT]*.[/FONT]
 Thus the cycle of death and rebirth perpetuates ensuring only The Brahm Giani journeys through the ocean of fire safely whilst loud praise singers are cast back into hell.[/FONT]
*I sincerely don’t know, yes, who knows Braham knows everything you can think of.[/FONT]*
 Should any Messiah seek to save them it is tormented and destroyed publicly by the demagogues who reward handsomely all those on its payroll, and destroy anyone who seeks to undermine their ill gotten gains. If Waheguru were alive what race, religion, caste or creed would he honour his name with, how would you know him, who would be his ally...?[/FONT]
*He is well alive, He is”Nirvair” beyond animosity, loves the non believers as well after all HE is the Creator of all. Blinds cannot enjoying beauty of “Sun-set”[/FONT]
*
Try and answer any of my points The Creator and His Creation are chained and oppressed because they are racially, religiously and nationally divided. The media and state embody the values of the Creators opposition and are united as one will to power. This is why the creation is in chains. [/FONT]
*No, I don’t care how you see the world, its is not even worth to hear you on this subject, only I am interested how His own Creation can turn chains if Guru is not followed. After having said that, the same creation becomes helpful also. Now all depend about who we talk about. For a person with a strong longing for the Creator, what Guru says is very important to remain aware about all this.[/FONT]*

Religious zealotry is alive and well in you PK70,[/FONT]
*Thanks for this title though I confess I don’t believe in any organized religion, atheists, politicians, or any group; my world starts with the Guru and ends with the Guru. Judgment by a totally confused mind is meaningless for me; do you see where the problem lies?[/FONT]*
 you cannot be better than the company and counsel you keep, and I am tormented without one saviour in sight, as was Nanak before me as well you know[/FONT]
*You spoke against Guru Nanak’s views,( This smell is all over in your posts) you have no understanding of Gurbani or Guru. By merely taking birth in a Sikh family one doesn’t become able to understand Guru Nanak, I have seen, who really fell for Guru Nanak, were not even born in so called Sikhism(  Born in Sikhism, there are some who are trying to own it in their own way)[/FONT]*
. I do not convert and you are but a pawn of those enviers jealous of Sikhism being accorded any respect other than a small sub sect of Hinduism.[/FONT]
*Your views are not even worth to do any thing.[/FONT]*
 I recognise my enemies and demons, you are spiritually blind, and Sikhs exemplify their religion even when cast into capture by their enemies and in chains.[/FONT]
*I do not have enemy including you, I see  all His a show as Guru ji elaborates, you are just doing the part He assigned to you.[/FONT]*

Guru Nanak’s truths are absolute and pure based upon Love.[/FONT]
*I wish you could get it in reality![/FONT]*
 Do not apply cunning by seeking to accuse me of berating One whom I have faith in and love for. Political tactics is using the trusted as a shield for one’s own sins..[/FONT]
*I have certainly fail to understand your miseries created by your own actions and your refuge in accusations to breath ego loudly but look on this side, the water is calm. You did nothing but my instinct to pass by useless commotion.[/FONT]*


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## pk70 (Feb 11, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> ...



*How Can His Own Creation Become Chains?*

In summary, the world global media are owned by a small number of very powerful men and report only what they decided to bring to the attention of the public.[/FONT]
The nations are all enjoined and led by the UN governed by Kofi Anand, in the pockets of the [/FONT]US[/FONT] and the [/FONT]UK[/FONT] allowing all invasions, massacres and destruction of defenceless smaller nations for payment in kind. The west terrorises whilst simultaneously accusing defenders of their faith and homeland of terrorism.[/FONT]
*One can read such stuff in the news paper, I wonder why this politics is brought into a discussion of Guru Shabad strictly related to persuasion of His Union[/FONT]
*
The Creators humanity and creation are oppressed by a divided religion, races, class. Messiahs bring together the Supreme Spirits humanity. Sinners not admitted no matter how loudly they sing praises rally with the state and media against any such messenger or Spirit of God.[/FONT]
*Many came and gone, the Word of the Eternal remains an access to His beings.[/FONT]*
 Hence the Creator and his free spirited creation are oppressed and in chains[/FONT]
*How the Creator can be oppressed when He is in command, as I stated earlier the atheists are disabled to see the whole landscape that goes beyond visible Horizon.[/FONT]*
, whilst sinners are accorded freedom to pillage loot, hold captive and destroy to their hearts contents and averted from punishment by expensive lawyers.[/FONT]
*Guru Nanak observed it and successfully understood His Command performed his role assigned to him by the Creator unlike a crying baby without even understanding it. [/FONT]
* Libel laws protect the rich demagoguery from criticism of humanities uprising, the global dismantling of blasphemy laws instigated by the [/FONT]US[/FONT] and UN Allow brutal attack upon The Creator and his Creation. Religions allow this and are discredited by the very media they consort with.[/FONT]
*You are just a complainer who sits and complains; no true religion adds to the fire, it’s the ones who are assigned by the Creator to do. If you are walking on a road and see “ a weak individual is being pushed to a corner by some one” HE puts you there armed with brains and body, if you fail to do any thing its your choice but if you do something, you become participant. All still happens as per His command. If you participate in it, He wakes you up, if you don’t, He doesn’t and let you be a meek and weak” To understand Him and His ordinance is not that simple that is why Guru says “Hukam na kahyaa jaee(Japji). My example is just a scratch of it.[/FONT]*

As Nanak said all are assigned a caste and station, those not accorded privilege rebel against the good.[/FONT]
*He shares truth and addresses how people are destined to go astray[/FONT]*
 They have rebelled and now sinners have a voice whilst the wise are exiled, defamed and destroyed. Humanity will rise gain and with it it’s Creator. The above first require annihilation, difficult given consideration to their power and the poverty stricken good who seek to dismantle them.[/FONT]
*Read the History, who thought  the Sun wouldn’t set in their regime, today, to what extent their regime is bordered. All it takes times, it is a big show as I stated. Some time History can be a mirror in this regard means how He plays the game in this show. To affect us a lot of is going on which is not even visible.[/FONT]*

. Who could escape this hell when one’s own controlled by the pigs in power. The battle with the maligning witches and sorcerers is the last stage of the ‘’world game’’ as you call it, men are all pawns and devices of the devils wenches...[/FONT]
*You are just in denial to accept the truth shown through History, in times worse than today’s, there were enlightened ones who showed practically how to understand His show, to participate in it and stand for the truth and justice. By repeating quotes, I feel, is useless in your case.[/FONT]
*
SatYug, The Age of Aquarius is heralded, seen on the Horizon ...[/FONT]
*Persons influence the Yugas not the Yugas do persons(Gurbani). When mortal longs for to merge with the Origin, fragrance of so called Satyug can be smelled. When Guru Nanak brought His Naam to the people, it was very much Kalyug, how come? These words “Kalyug or Satyug” are just given by people to dig excuses otherwise History witnesses a lot of good stuff right in the Kalyug.[/FONT]*


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## pk70 (Feb 11, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zveI18xow"]<font face="Baskerville Old Face"><font size="3"><font color="#800080">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zveI18xow</font></font>[/FON</font>"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zveI18xow"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zveI18xow[/FON[/FON
> 
> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself."]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcEw_0PuyPw[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> The video's are a good illustration of the point you are trying to make. God remains in hell with his humnaity, Enjoy the ''show'' PK70 ...




*I do not waste my time on any other thesis than contemplating on Gurbani and trying to discipher what Guru Message is like Why Guru says this and to where he is leading to his followers. After reading well established thinkers, I found fascinating expression about whom we are coming from, only through Guru Nanak. So keep knocking different doors since I dont need to knock after being with Guru Message*


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 12, 2009)

The Showman is a paparazzi pimp, a sorcerer and a feminist witch wench. Sikhism moved away from Hinduism because of their idolatry worship of any deity or aggrandised mortal offering the crumbs of grace. The lower castes idolise and worship the lesser minion gods whilst the thinkers and higher caste are followers of Brahma and his Gian of virtue and honour. This is how castes became established with the professional rank and order of society each having their own idol of reverence. It would seem the dark age of Holy War and KalYug, where the Gods are cast into battle against subhuman’s and their elected leaders brings joy in that the earth is graced by the descending of the Gods who are then systematically ensnared, dishonoured and destroyed {See Indra, Zeus, Sita, Adam, Lilith}. Religions are then formed by the giving of the mantle of Godhead of any deity who tolerated the ranks and file of these subordinate beings seeking glory by association with anything godly.{See Jesus, Mohammed, Francis of Assisi}. Thus the world order is established and the masses reviled for their part and hand in assisting by their silence ‘’the showman’’ in his exploits and destruction. It is said God/Brahma himself inadvertently granted the boon of dominion to Ravann. I would vehemently contest this, but those whom ravann has cast a crumb from his grand table, will sing his praises regardless. This is why the creation lies, remains bound, hypnotised and captive in chains. The divided people are gods worst enemies and tools to be employed the tormenter satan against him. the casting of wisdom to be tormented by the wicked in the dens of iniquity where such feminists and stray jezebels gain great mastery of words whilst tormenting wisdom by their witchcraft is another reason the world will remain in its own elected hell when the Gods return to their own land and Empire. The Great ***** of Lanka serves all who wield influence in the world court and binds those who do not submit. Religious scriptural knowledge given to the people is turned upon the good by the media showman’s trolls and hell ensues. It’s all fun and games when the incidental carnage occurs in foreign lands, rather when it is your home and family under siege and being looted man laments to the absent God and the ‘’Pimp showman’’ presiding as God in his stead. You call me an unbeliever, and I call you a fool. I as my Guru’s instructed honour nothing and no one excepting the sound reasonable word of truth in the bani, you support a ‘’showman sorcerer and his harlot’’ and are actually the godless one. That is the web of confusion and deceit the Creator or his creation cannot escape, trolls in god garb and the honourable shorn wise in street casual. That is why the world is an illusory delusion, nothing is s it appears and few loyal to wisdom, honour love and morality ...{Jisne keeti sharam, uske poote hain karam} I have yet to knock on any door in my entire life, My parents and grandparents had an open door policy and a happy bustling home where all congregated with tea and roti to discuss God. I stand alone and the insinuation you imply with your remark is as usual ill considered. You are a victim of your narrow mindedness. And I am as always proud. I know your showman and the miserly but all powerful worm and pig that he is. You are delusional, and an arrogant delusional being. That is your misfortune. I recognise the tormenting forces and factors that torment and battle to free myself and others, you are that weak pitiful man who would and does collude with all and anyone who indulges you. 

Man’ God cannot be greater than the measure of his imagination and sensory perception to envisage the greatness of his creator. You have your God and I have mine. Kindly desist from judging me by your own ill considered standards. 

Please do not reply further. I feel I have exhausted my time with you too.

''Eh sansar Bikar sanson mein, tario Brahm Giani''.
This world is engrossed in sin and devilry, only the Godly spiritual will swim across the world ocean.


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## pk70 (Feb 12, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> T.



    You call me an unbeliever, and I call you a fool. I as my Guru’s instructed honour nothing and no one excepting the sound reasonable word of truth in the bani, you support a ‘’showman sorcerer and his harlot’’ and are actually the godless one. 
*Obviously you are a tormented soul, quickly stoop to accuse others. It is not me who called you non believer but it is you who boasted “ I do not believe in God but wisdom” What a reader of this boasting should comprehend? Now blame game is on, blame God, blame Indian Govt, blame Pk70 and numerous others I cannot think of or remember who knows the past of such a tormented soul ! I pray for your stability!*

  That is the web of confusion and deceit the Creator or his creation cannot escape, trolls in god garb and the honourable shorn wise in street casual. That is why the world is an illusory delusion, nothing is s it appears and few loyal to wisdom, honour love and morality
*Well simple Guru Shabad of Guru Nanak and on its elaboration will ruin civility of a person, I never dreamt. I also learnt practically that “playing music before a **Buffalo** is useless”(Majh de agge been vajane da kee labh?)*
   ...{Jisne keeti sharam, uske poote hain karam} I have yet to knock on any door in my entire life, My parents and grandparents had an open door policy and a happy bustling home where all congregated with tea and roti to discuss God. I stand alone and the insinuation you imply with your remark is as usual ill considered
*Oh my God, “knocking at door”, you educated Madam, couldn’t understand its context? It was not referred to any financial thing; it was used in educational context. Obviously I was wrong; I thought you are intelligent enough to understand that!*
*.* You are a victim of your narrow mindedness. And I am as always proud. I know your showman and the miserly but all powerful worm and pig that he is. You are delusional, and an arrogant delusional being. That is your misfortune.

*Do you need any proof of your tormented mind? Just read your statement above, its  pretty much a proof of it. Regarding show man, whom I am showing? I don’t even reveal my full name to be accepted or recognized, just trying to tell others that how jealous you can be, where are your teaching of kindness, tolerance, truth, love? I told you already they were empty words, thanks you have just proved* it.
   I recognise the tormenting forces and factors that torment and battle to free myself and others, you are that weak pitiful man who would and does collude with all and anyone who indulges you. 
*Thank you oh exceptional astrologer*!!!! *You should open up a shop like Pundit Maharaj.

*Man’ God cannot be greater than the measure of his imagination and sensory perception to envisage the greatness of his creator. You have your God and I have mine. Kindly desist from judging me by your own ill considered standards. 
*I responded to what you wrote in response of the thread, I just answered, unfortunately I divulged a few facts of your contradictory theories and your habit of teaching Sikhi from your philosophical books or hear say about Sikhi. Now it is bad, amazing, amazing

*Please do not reply further. I feel I have exhausted my time with you too.

* I must reply, you have accused me unfairly of things I don’t stand for, your slandering crossed all limits of civility, and don’t you think Madam I should show you the mirror! I think it is a must !*


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 12, 2009)

Knocking upon doors means ‘’dar dar patakhana’’ to be lost and reduced to seeking your own soul at the threshold of others. I am like my forefathers uneducated, given only as much knowledge and wisdom as my Creator Lord has ordained. I am under siege in my own home, and although set apart from my community, I am brought here to your forum for three reasons. Firstly, for the devil to show his power and ability to denigrate me in public, two to see if there is any man able to extricate the damsel in distress from his den of iniquity, and thirdly to carry the sin of he sitting at the helm in power. I refuse and battle until I am dead. If he fails I don’t exist anyway. To satisfy the devil of lanka of his own absolute power and dominion greater than any other, he is still a pimp and a pig, but a powerful pig pimp, and for all the pomp and glory his media harlots or career women are nothing but glorified trollops and lust ridden peasants of the lowest order. A majh is a bound beast, who feeds from the lawn, sometimes elevated to a trough, whose manure is used to make dung pies to light the chulla fire, and milked for the sustenance of life. Whether the milk or dung of the majh nourishes or burns is an act of fate, good or bad from the maker, he of the remarkable sense of humour. A madam is commonly known as one who engineers, instigates and incites devilry, politicalspinning and immorality profitting from the immoral in their wickedness, a stooge of the ‘’showman’’ and pimp. I would advise you redirect your remarks to those more worthy of these allegations of grandeur than I could possibly be. No personal affront implied, my words are mostly and near always aimed at my captor and enemy, steve o connor ...

‘’Eh pyari mohani, kya nahin ghar tere, ghar tere sab kuch hain, jis de so paave’’ - 
thrice blessed and overshadowed by the aforementioned.above, now kal has gained whilst I and humanity remain enchained ....


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## pk70 (Feb 12, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> ...



   Knocking upon doors means ‘’dar dar patakhana’’ to be lost and reduced to seeking your own soul at the threshold of others.
*Not at all, it was used in context of studying others, I stressed after having read established thinkers I found satisfaction with Guru Nanak, then I used for you to keep knocking doors of other thinkers you frequently make base to teach Gurbani and Sikhi*

  I am like my forefathers uneducated, given only as much knowledge and wisdom as my Creator Lord has ordained. I am under siege in my own home, and although set apart from my community,
*I am not aware of it save for what you write, I believe that is the only right I have to know about you*.
   I am brought here to your forum for three reasons. Firstly, for the devil to show his power and ability to denigrate me in public, two to see if there is any man able to extricate the damsel in distress from his den of iniquity, and thirdly to carry the sin of his harlots sitting at the helm in power.
*Please fight on, two penny suggestion, avoid judging others who you don’t even know since it inflicts misery more on the soul of the judging person and slanderer than on the one being judged or slandered. If you wish you can ignore it,*
   I refuse and battle until I am dead. If he fails I don’t exist anyway. To satisfy the devil of lanka of his own absolute power and dominion greater than any other, he is still a pimp and a pig, but a powerful pig pimp, and for all the pomp and glory his media harlots or career women are nothing but glorified trollops and lust ridden peasants of the lowest order
*I have lost you here, couldn’t make any thing out of it, all words are wrapped in ambiguity, sorry.*

  . A majh is a bound beast, who feeds from the lawn, sometimes elevated to a trough, whose manure is used to make dung pies to light the chulla fire, and milked for the sustenance of life. Whether the milk or dung of the majh nourishes or burns is an act of fate, good or bad from the maker, he of the remarkable sense of humour. 
*Only inability of buffalo to enjoy music is used in the metaphor, rest you are talking about is undeniable.*

  A madam is commonly known as one who engineers, instigates and profits from the immoral in their wickedness, an ally of the ‘’showman’’ and pimp. I would advise you redirect your remarks to those more worthy of these allegations of grandeur than I could possibly be. 
*For me who called me sick, miserable, zealot, powerful worm, pig etc are those who deserve the most pity otherwise you think how a person in senses can call a person with so much bad words without knowing him?* 
‘’Eh pyari mohani, kya nahin ghar tere, ghar tere sab kuch hain, jis de so paave’’ - thrice blessed and overshadowed by the aforementioned.above, now the kal has gained whilst I remain enchained ....
*Still I pray for you Madam, the most precious thing is peace at heart, if that is gone, every thing is lost, I wish you that!*


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## Archived_Member5 (Feb 12, 2009)

One last point PK70, if we are not to discriminate, be judgmental or critical why do read the bani or study scriptures ...? If all punni, paapi, haram or juggal kor are as one in the eyes of the Lord why pray, why seek to better ones life, why be discerning of whom our children marry or what our governments adjudicate, or our communities foster, why bother? Was it not at this juncture and frame of mind that Nanak said all is here, of mortal man, heaven hell, swarg, narak are all here, for here are the Eden dwellers and enjoyers of life and here the tormented consumed by woe and hardship, and when advised to read the bani, mool mantra daily, and unable by his demon tormentors to do, did he speak thus, ‘’blessed are those who pray, who find their intoxicating bliss and peace in prayer, blessed are they who abide in peace. It is said the Saints have all faced great hardships at the hands of an evil when descended to release mankind from the web of incongruity In the law of karma none have understood God, for those who recognise what presides over this world, then seek thereafter to depart their mortal body and ascend spiritually to higher planes and dimensions...

The spectators of this drama watch as I battle and learn from my defences and become more cunning, ‘chupe chup na hovan, aur bohot nahi bolna’’ me bas chalta nahin. What then is an angered or tormented person but a publicist for his tormentors as he seeks to expel them from his consciousness? None can override truth and wisdom and the power of Supreme Consciousness excepting sorcery and the truly strong are impervious to that also.

The united nations, untied states and united kingdom prosper in their false mask of unity whilst Gods temple of his five, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism are divided and battling for dominance. The five pointed star, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, all are the pillars and body of God yet divided. That is why the Creator and his creation are enchained and at war.

The media baron or ''showman'' with sorcery holds the world and I captive in a matrix all are now aware of. I judge them for I tolerate not such vileness in my home. I battle to regain my devastated home empire.
It is mans purpose and task to destroy evildoers, and granted their power diminishes daily in the doing so. Thankyou for at least wishing me peace ... :advocate:


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## pk70 (Feb 12, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> One last point PK70, ... :advocate:



   One last point PK70, if we are not to discriminate, be judgmental or critical why do read the bani or study scriptures ...? 
*To find that goodness within us we loose under the influence of ego and wrath and other all aspects of Maya*

  If all punni, paapi, haram or juggal kor are as one in the eyes of the Lord why pray, why seek to better ones life, why be discerning of whom our children marry or what our governments adjudicate, or our communities foster, why bother? Was it not at this juncture and frame of mind that Nanak said all is here, of mortal man, heaven hell, swarg, narak are all here, for here are the Eden dwellers and enjoyers of life and here the tormented consumed by woe and hardship,

*Of course it is here, even when one indulges in slandering others, soul tastes a bit of it, in Gurbani there is no prayer for heaven, only prayer recommended is to have HIS grace to be with Him and to be stilled*
   and when advised to read the bani, mool mantra daily, and unable by his demon tormentors to do, did he speak thus, ‘’blessed are those who pray, who find their intoxicating bliss and peace in prayer, blessed are they who abide in peace.
*Mool Mantra is a try of introducing the inexpressible to the followers,  reading or reciting it, is to realize His infinite identity. If ,as Guru says, soul is convinced by believing in Him, it starts seeking HIM, mind starts over coming influence of knowledge, Maya etc which couldn’t help in this pursuit*
   It is said the Saints have all faced great hardships at the hands of an evil when descended to release mankind from the web of incongruity
*They just try to infuse the power of Love for Him in them for becoming tolerant and able to stand against any kind of negativity, in other words fight should be fought against it either way but love for Him to be kept intact*
   In the law of karma none have understood God,
*They did understand, only statement they gave again and again is about His infinity and His being beyond description*
   for those who recognise what presides over this world, then seek thereafter to depart their mortal body and ascend spiritually to higher planes and dimensions...
*I should not comment on it, I know only what experience they share with us, my mind  stops making any such assumption further.

*The spectators of this drama watch as I battle and learn from my defences and become more cunning, ‘chupe chup na hovan, aur bohot nahi bolna’’ me bas chalta nahin.
*Its about that practice prevailed in Moni  Sadhus(men of silence) who would remain silent in pursuit of Him, its about those who try to meditate on in this state. In no way it implies the idea as you are using it.  Of course Guru Nanak says one should share wisdom with others instead of remaining silence, people must be made aware of all tactics of creating negativity*

   What then is an angered or tormented person but a publicist for his tormentors as he seeks to expel them from his consciousness? 
*Cursing  and slandering others establishes nothing.*
  None can override truth and wisdom and the power of Supreme Consciousness excepting sorcery and the truly strong are impervious to that also.
*Before we state that, we must do effort to understand the both, the Truth and power of the Creator*
The united nations, untied states and united   kingdom prosper in their false mask of unity whilst Gods temple of his five, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism are divided and battling for dominance. The five pointed star, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, all are the pillars and body of God yet divided. That is why the Creator and his creation are enchained and at war.
*The only mortal can do is to create misunderstanding about God, they cannot divide Him. Who follow this tactics of creating misunderstanding are those who do not know Him
* The media baron or ''showman'' with sorcery holds the world and I captive in a matrix all are now aware of. I judge them for I tolerate not such vileness in my home. I battle to regain my devastated home empire.
  You see, there are those like you whom they cannot mislead.  I advised you not to judge with faulty language those whom you don’t even know. If you say some thing about these guys stated above, it is not judging but infusing awareness of their agenda under any banner
It is mans purpose and task to destroy evildoers, and granted their power diminishes daily in the doing so.
*Those participate in negating all negativity are those whom He causes to do*
   Thankyou for at least wishing me peace ...

*Every one deserves what I want, so I wish you again peace*


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