# Is Hindu/Sikh A Valid Adherent?



## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

Gurfatehji


A subject that needs some validation, I am aware that it is not uncommon for Hindus to also pray to Guru Nanakji, which I take as a huge compliment, but given the myriad of deities that Hindus have available to them, it does not seem unreasonable for a Hindu to do this. 

However, some Hindus feel this should be reciprocated by our acceptance and worship of these deities, which is simply impossible under the SRM which clearly states:-



Article I – Definition of Sikh 

Any human being who faithfully believes in: 
• One Immortal Being 
• Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh
• The Guru Granth Sahib
• The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus 
• The baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who  does  not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh.


I am aware that some people use the adherent Hindu/Sikh, but how can the teachings be anything other than a melting pot of contradictory opinions and concepts?

Hinduism has the caste system, Sikhism has strict rules regarding equality, the fact that these are not followed is another matter....
Hinduism has reincarnation, Sikhism does not
Hinduism has Karma, Sikhism does not
Hinduism is full of rituals and exciting ceremonies, Sikhism has gone out of its way to distance itself from such


I know that there are Sikhs who embrace a lot of Hinduism without even realising it, but there are too many differences, the end result is a confusion. 

I have nothing against the Hindu religion, I have a lot of respect for the many Gods and Goddesses, I have respect for the right of anyone to worship anything they so wish, but do I believe they existed? No, of course not, I am a Sikh, I believe only in Creator that has no birth or death and without form, and that invalidates the Hindu Gods, so I cannot believe in them, although any concept that agrees with Sikhi, I am happy to embrace, but with the direction coming from Creator, not Idols. 

As a Sikh, Creator Created, and that is it, its boring, its not exciting, no bells and whistles, no fire or sun worship, just simple tuning into Creators voice to achieve salvation with the minimum of fuss and ceremony. 

So I would be interested in comments as to what a Hindu/Sikh actually is


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 28, 2012)

Harry Ji,

This is just a personal perspective... but I think someone identifying themselves as Hindu/Sikh is someone who has little idea of who they are... haha! even less than me!


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

I would rather be on a path, any path, than going round in circles Bhain ji


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## Kamala (Jan 28, 2012)

MOST OF YOUR FACTS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Sikhism does believe in the 840sky/water reincarnations and believes in KARMA. Although, I musat agree that Sikhism does restrict the caste system, many traditional indian Sikhs still use it, I can gurantee to you over 90% of Sikhs do take the caste system seriously, but in different ways, as in like some people only let their jatt sons marry jatt ladys instead of chamar girls. We also do have cerimonies like Holamahala which is almost identical to Hindu Holi. Why do you think the guru ji made the same so similar? It isn't a coincedence. You are making our religion seem abrahamic, but really we are dharmic.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 28, 2012)

It should be interesting to know who has given definition to Sikhs.??
One should always respect the other faiths and philosophies. Adhering to a particuar philosophy is individuals  right.But this does not allow disrepect for others.This has been the way of thinking of Sikh GuRus.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

Kamala said:


> MOST OF YOUR FACTS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG.
> 
> Sikhism does believe in the 840sky/water reincarnations and believes in KARMA. Although, I musat agree that Sikhism does restrict the caste system, many traditional indian Sikhs still use it, I can gurantee to you over 90% of Sikhs do take the caste system seriously, but in different ways, as in like some people only let their jatt sons marry jatt ladys instead of chamar girls. We also do have cerimonies like Holamahala which is almost identical to Hindu Holi. Why do you think the guru ji made the same so similar? It isn't a coincedence. You are making our religion seem abrahamic, but really we are dharmic.



Kamalaji

Many thanks for your post, I note you are in fact Hindu/Sikh, so what a wonderful chance for me satisfy my question by interacting with a knowledgeable person of the very adherent that I find confusing. 

Firstly let us ponder the wise words of the SRM on the subject:-

A Sikh’s living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru’s tenets. The Guru’s tenets are: 
a. Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess. 
b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth and the ten Gurus word alone as saviors and holy objects of veneration. 
c. Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity. 
d. Not believing in cast or descent,  untouchability,  magic,  spells,  incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions,  influence of start,  horoscopic dispositions,  shradh (ritual serving of food to priests for the salvation of ancestors on appointed days as per the lunar calendar),  ancestor worship,  khiah (ritual serving of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of the death of an ancestor),  pind , there is more, 

http://www.gurunanakdarbar.net/sikhrehatmaryada.pdf

So Kamalaji, please educate me as to how you can possibly be a Sikh? if you believe in points (d), which seems to go dead against the SRM.

Also when you say 'We' I find it most confusing, do you mean 'We' Hindus? 'We' Sikhs or 'We' Hindu/Sikhs?

I look forward to your clarification on the matter, thank you


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It should be interesting to know who has given definition to Sikhs.??
> One should always respect the other faiths and philosophies. Adhering to a particuar philosophy is individuals  right.But this does not allow disrepect for others.This has been the way of thinking of Sikh GuRus.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakashji, 

Out of respect I have tended to not really get involved in debate with you, however as you have so kindly contributed to this thread, I feel honour bound to reply,

 It should be interesting to know who has given definition to Sikhs.??

Well, that would probably be the SGGS and for clarification on interpretation, the SRM, would you not say?


One should always respect the other faiths and philosophies


I have not shown any disrespect for any faith, I have merely said I do not believe in them any more than I believe in the tooth fairy, however, I respect all faiths and the right of anyone to follow whatever faith they choose. I am quite fond of the saying, if you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim, and if you are a Sikh, be a good Sikh

I note that you use the phrase 'definition to Sikhs' as if you were speaking as someone who is not a Sikh, kindly explain


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## Kamala (Jan 28, 2012)

Mr.Haller, there is a difference between beleiving in a goddess/god and beleiveing they existed. I do not go to mandirs and pray to the gods/goddesses, I go to the mandir to pay my respects to them. I beleive that those goddesses/gods do exists and are real. That is the part where I say I am half Hindu on this forum because most of you do not believe the gods didn't even exist, when in fact there are many storys from the past between ~700 years that they have came prakat. I am Sikh and I bleive the gods EXISTED. 

Namashkar.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

Kamalaji

you seem confused, as do some of your posts, but then that is not surprising given your above statements. 

Simply put, you are not a Sikh, its very simple, here is another extract that you fail miserably on

Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers,  Brahmins holiness,  soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles,  promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes,  the Vedas,  the Shastras,  the Gayatri (Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun),  the Gita,  the Quran,  the Bible, etc.. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is 
admissible

So by your admission, you believe that these gods and goddesses existed, although you do not worship them , your beliefs are against the code of Sikhs, the SRM, you are not educating yourself, you believe they existed, sorry, but you are not a Sikh...

I have no problem with your opinions, but they are the opinions of a non Sikh, please do not try and pollute Sikhism with the very Vedic practices that the Gurus fought so hard to move away from, 

Sat Sri Akal/Namashkar


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 28, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji,
> 
> Out of respect I have tended to not really get involved in debate with you, however as you have so kindly contributed to this thread, I feel honour bound to reply,
> 
> ...


 
Well I am a Sikh  but any how I am not convinced by the definition of Sikhs as given in SRM. My life is totally for SGGS ji.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Well I am a Sikh  but any how I am not convinced by the definition of Sikhs as given in SRM. My life is totally for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakashji, 

This does rather beg the question, how important is the SRM, how definitive is the SRM for Sikhs, is someone not convinced by the SRM still a Sikh?

There are many sects that totally believe in SGGS, that do not follow the SRM, that is what makes them sects and not Sikhs, which one are you Prakashji


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 28, 2012)

Kamala said:


> Mr.Haller, there is a difference between beleiving in a goddess/god and beleiveing they existed. I do not go to mandirs and pray to the gods/goddesses, I go to the mandir to pay my respects to them. I beleive that those goddesses/gods do exists and are real. That is the part where I say I am half Hindu on this forum because most of you do not believe the gods didn't even exist, when in fact there are many storys from the past between ~700 years that they have came prakat. I am Sikh and I bleive the gods EXISTED.
> 
> Namashkar.


 

KAMALA Ji,
Well  I am of the opinion that one should not travel on two horses at a time.This is always dangerours in every situation of life.
Sikh philosophy is quite distict as from all others and this should not be practiced in mixed way.I dont see any point in getting asserted for the existence of what has been clearly explained as different in Sikh Philosophy.
In Sikh Philosophy there is all but GuRMuKH(i) NAAMu only.Every thing what you envsage as HINDu is taken care within NAAMu only.
I think this is important for anyone to understand this aspect of Sikh Philosophy.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 28, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji,
> 
> This does rather beg the question, how important is the SRM, how definitive is the SRM for Sikhs, is someone not convinced by the SRM still a Sikh?
> 
> There are many sects that totally believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, that do not follow the SRM, that is what makes them sects and not Sikhs, which one are you Prakashji


 
I think this I should leave for your analysis.I dont belive in any sect out of SGGS ji.This is my life.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I think this I should leave for your analysis.I dont belive in any sect out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.This is my life.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


peacesignkaur


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 28, 2012)

Kamala ji you cannot say I am an astronomer but I believe Earth is the center of the universe


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 28, 2012)

Kamala Ji...btw..what the "fixation" with CHAMAAR girls....i noticed you use this caste a lot in your mails....also in the Sardar-Hindu girl thread where you assumed the Hindu girl must be chamaar when the sardaar just said Hindu girl..??? juts thinking aloud...


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## Harry Haller (Jan 29, 2012)

Kamala Bhainji

I apologise for my bluntness, however, I do feel it is important that posters state their background so that readers know where their views come from. Your views tend to be quite definitive rather than suggestive, which gives readers, especially the young, sometimes the wrong impression about Sikhi.

May I make a suggestion, change your adherent to Sanatan Sikh, and your views can then be accepted in that context. When you say "We", than the rest of us will know you are talking about the Sanatan Sikh view, ie, a view that reconciles Sikh thinking with Hinduism. 

A little about Sanatan Sikhs taken from Sikhiwikki that I think you may find interesting

_There are a few Sikhs, who mix Sanatani (mainstream Hindu) views with Sikh thoughts. For them, Sikhism is a part of 'Sanatan Dharma' or Hinduism. In many of present Sikh circles, these Sikhs are called Sanatanis.
It is thought that Sanatani views are a new ideology, but there is a long history of Sanatani thinking. A few of Sanatani views can be found even in Sikh books written in 18th century. 'Gur Bilas', 'Bansavalinama' and 'Mahma Prakash' are included in the list of such books. Sanatani views became more acceptable during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule in Punjab for various reasons.
Sanatanis should not be confused with those people, who show disrespect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib or other Sikh Gurus. In fact, Sanatanis show deep respect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They accept it their Guru. At the same time, they also believe in Vedas and Puranas. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been accepted the fifth Veda._


As a Sanatan Sikh, I can debate and discuss any facet of Sikhism and Hinduism, whilst showing respect for your chosen adherent. 

As a Hindu Sikh, your adherent is meaningless, confusing and ambiguous. 

Whatever you are, be proud of it and stand up for your views, You will find others will respect you a lot more for it, rather than darting from one camp to the other.

Best Wishes, 

Harry


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## Luckysingh (Jan 29, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji
> 
> Hinduism has reincarnation, Sikhism does not
> Hinduism has Karma, Sikhism does not
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 29, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Kamala Bhainji
> 
> I apologise for my bluntness, however, I do feel it is important that posters state their background so that readers know where their views come from. Your views tend to be quite definitive rather than suggestive, which gives readers, especially the young, sometimes the wrong impression about Sikhi.
> 
> ...


 
HARRY HALLAR Ji,

A Sikh can not be branded as Sanatan Sikh as SIKH is GuR SIKH only..
I feel you have not grasped the messages of the whole of SGGS ji .Once you do this I am sure your views will be different.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 29, 2012)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,

Here is a Sabad from SGGS ji pp551 for your ready reference.

<TABLE cellSpacing=8 width="93%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਆਪੇ ਦੇ ਛਿੰਗਾ ਆਪੇ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰਾਵੈ ॥ 

आपे जलु आपे दे छिंगा आपे चुली भरावै ॥ 

Āpe jal āpe ḏe cẖẖingā āpe cẖulī bẖarāvai. 

He Himself is the water, He Himself gives the tooth-pick, and He Himself offers the mouthwash. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਦਿ ਬਹਾਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਦਾ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥ 

आपे संगति सदि बहालै आपे विदा करावै ॥ 

Āpe sangaṯ saḏ bahālai āpe viḏā karāvai. 

He Himself calls and seats the congregation, and He Himself bids them goodbye. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਿਰਪਾਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਵੈ ॥੬॥ 

जिस नो किरपालु होवै हरि आपे तिस नो हुकमु मनावै ॥६॥ 

Jis no kirpāl hovai har āpe ṯis no hukam manāvai. ||6|| 

One whom the Lord Himself blesses with His Mercy - the Lord causes him to walk according to His Will. ||6|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

सलोक मः ३ ॥ 

Salok mėhlā 3. 

Shalok, Third Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ॥ 

करम धरम सभि बंधना पाप पुंन सनबंधु ॥ 

Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ banḏẖnā pāp punn san▫banḏẖ. 

Rituals and religions are all just entanglements; bad and good are bound up with them. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਸੁ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਸੁ ਧੰਧੁ ॥ 

ममता मोहु सु बंधना पुत्र कलत्र सु धंधु ॥ 

Mamṯā moh so banḏẖnā puṯar kalṯar so ḏẖanḏẖ. 

Those things done for the sake of children and spouse, in ego and attachment, are just more bonds. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਜੇਵਰੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ॥ 

जह देखा तह जेवरी माइआ का सनबंधु ॥ 

Jah ḏekẖā ṯah jevrī mā▫i▫ā kā san▫banḏẖ. 

Wherever I look, there I see the noose of attachment to Maya. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਵਰਤਣਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਅੰਧੁ ॥੧॥ 

नानक सचे नाम बिनु वरतणि वरतै अंधु ॥१॥ 

Nānak sacẖe nām bin varṯaṇ varṯai anḏẖ. ||1|| 

O Nanak, without the True Name, the world is engrossed in blind entanglements. ||1|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਃ ੪ ॥ 

मः ४ ॥ 

Mėhlā 4. 

Fourth Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਧੇ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਤਾ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ 

अंधे चानणु ता थीऐ जा सतिगुरु मिलै रजाइ ॥ 

Anḏẖe cẖānaṇ ṯā thī▫ai jā saṯgur milai rajā▫e. 

The blind receive the Divine Light, when they merge with the Will of the True Guru. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜੈ ਸਚਿ ਵਸੈ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਅਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 

बंधन तोड़ै सचि वसै अगिआनु अधेरा जाइ ॥ 

Banḏẖan ṯoṛai sacẖ vasai agi▫ān aḏẖerā jā▫e. 

They break their bonds, and dwell in Truth, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਜਿ ॥ 

सभु किछु देखै तिसै का जिनि कीआ तनु साजि ॥ 

Sabẖ kicẖẖ ḏekẖai ṯisai kā jin kī▫ā ṯan sāj. 

They see that everything belongs to the One who created and fashioned the body. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਰਾਖੈ ਲਾਜ ॥੨॥ 

नानक सरणि करतार की करता राखै लाज ॥२॥ 

Nānak saraṇ karṯār kī karṯā rākẖai lāj. ||2|| 

Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Creator - the Creator preserves his honor. ||2|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 

पउड़ी ॥ 

Pa▫oṛī. 

Pauree: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਦਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਥਾਟੁ ਕੀਆ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਤਦਹੁ ਪੁਛਿ ਨ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਬੀਆ ॥ 

जदहु आपे थाटु कीआ बहि करतै तदहु पुछि न सेवकु बीआ ॥ 

Jaḏahu āpe thāt kī▫ā bahi karṯai ṯaḏahu pucẖẖ na sevak bī▫ā. 

When the Creator, sitting all by Himself, created the Universe, he did not consult with any of His servants; 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਦਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਲੇਵੈ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਦੇਵੈ ਜਾਂ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੀਆ ॥ 

तदहु किआ को लेवै किआ को देवै जां अवरु न दूजा कीआ ॥ 

Ŧaḏahu ki▫ā ko levai ki▫ā ko ḏevai jāŉ avar na ḏūjā kī▫ā. 

so what can anyone take, and what can anyone give, when He did not create any other like Himself? 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਫਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕਰਤੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥ 

फिरि आपे जगतु उपाइआ करतै दानु सभना कउ दीआ ॥ 

Fir āpe jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā karṯai ḏān sabẖnā ka▫o ḏī▫ā. 

Then, after fashioning the world, the Creator blessed all with His blessings. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਬਣਾਈਅਨੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆ ॥ 

आपे सेव बणाईअनु गुरमुखि आपे अम्रितु पीआ ॥ 

Āpe sev baṇā▫ī▫an gurmukẖ āpe amriṯ pī▫ā. 

He Himself instructs us in His service, and as Gurmukh, we drink in His Ambrosial Nectar. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰੈ ਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥੭॥ 

आपि निरंकार आकारु है आपे आपे करै सु थीआ ॥७॥ 

Āp nirankār ākār hai āpe āpe karai so thī▫ā. ||7|| 

He Himself is formless, and He Himself is formed; whatever He Himself does, comes to pass. ||7|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

सलोक मः ३ ॥ 

Salok mėhlā 3. 

Shalok, Third Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਸਦ ਸਾਚਾ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥ 

गुरमुखि प्रभु सेवहि सद साचा अनदिनु सहजि पिआरि ॥ 

Gurmukẖ parabẖ sevėh saḏ sācẖā an▫ḏin sahj pi▫ār. 

The Gurmukhs serve God forever; night and day, they are steeped in the Love of the True Lord. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਸਾਚੇ ਅਰਧਿ ਉਰਧਿ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ 

सदा अनंदि गावहि गुण साचे अरधि उरधि उरि धारि ॥ 

Saḏā anand gāvahi guṇ sācẖe araḏẖ uraḏẖ ur ḏẖār. 

They are in bliss forever, singing the Glorious Praises of the True Lord; in this world and in the next, they keep Him clasped to their hearts. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥ 

अंतरि प्रीतमु वसिआ धुरि करमु लिखिआ करतारि ॥ 

Anṯar parīṯam vasi▫ā ḏẖur karam likẖi▫ā karṯār. 

Their Beloved dwells deep within; the Creator pre-ordained this destiny. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 

नानक आपि मिलाइअनु आपे किरपा धारि ॥१॥ 

Nānak āp milā▫i▫an āpe kirpā ḏẖār. ||1|| 

O Nanak, He blends them into Himself; He Himself showers His Mercy upon them. ||1|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

मः ३ ॥ 

Mėhlā 3. 

Third Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਹਿਐ ਕਥਿਐ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਸਦਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥ 

कहिऐ कथिऐ न पाईऐ अनदिनु रहै सदा गुण गाइ ॥ 

Kahi▫ai kathi▫ai na pā▫ī▫ai an▫ḏin rahai saḏā guṇ gā▫e. 

By merely talking and speaking, He is not found. Night and day, sing His Glorious Praises continually. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮੈ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਭਉਕਿ ਮੁਏ ਬਿਲਲਾਇ ॥ 

विणु करमै किनै न पाइओ भउकि मुए बिललाइ ॥ 

viṇ karmai kinai na pā▫i▫o bẖa▫uk mu▫e billā▫e. 

Without His Merciful Grace, no one finds Him; many have died barking and bewailing. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਭਿਜੈ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ 

गुर कै सबदि मनु तनु भिजै आपि वसै मनि आइ ॥ 

Gur kai sabaḏ man ṯan bẖijai āp vasai man ā▫e. 

When the mind and body are saturated with the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord Himself comes to dwell in his mind. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੨॥ 

नानक नदरी पाईऐ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥२॥ 

Nānak naḏrī pā▫ī▫ai āpe la▫e milā▫e. ||2|| 

O Nanak, by His Grace, He is found; He unites us in His Union. ||2|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 

पउड़ी ॥ 

Pa▫oṛī. 

Pauree: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपे वेद पुराण सभि सासत आपि कथै आपि भीजै ॥ 

Āpe veḏ purāṇ sabẖ sāsaṯ āp kathai āp bẖījai. 

He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपे ही बहि पूजे करता आपि परपंचु करीजै ॥ 

Āpe hī bahi pūje karṯā āp parpancẖ karījai. 

He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपि परविरति आपि निरविरती आपे अकथु कथीजै ॥ 

Āp parviraṯ āp nirvirṯī āpe akath kathījai. 

He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपे पुंनु सभु आपि कराए आपि अलिपतु वरतीजै ॥ 

Āpe punn sabẖ āp karā▫e āp alipaṯ varṯījai. 

He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥੮॥ 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=8 width="93%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਆਪੇ ਦੇ ਛਿੰਗਾ ਆਪੇ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰਾਵੈ ॥ 

आपे जलु आपे दे छिंगा आपे चुली भरावै ॥ 

Āpe jal āpe ḏe cẖẖingā āpe cẖulī bẖarāvai. 

He Himself is the water, He Himself gives the tooth-pick, and He Himself offers the mouthwash. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਦਿ ਬਹਾਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਦਾ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥ 

आपे संगति सदि बहालै आपे विदा करावै ॥ 

Āpe sangaṯ saḏ bahālai āpe viḏā karāvai. 

He Himself calls and seats the congregation, and He Himself bids them goodbye. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਿਰਪਾਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਵੈ ॥੬॥ 

जिस नो किरपालु होवै हरि आपे तिस नो हुकमु मनावै ॥६॥ 

Jis no kirpāl hovai har āpe ṯis no hukam manāvai. ||6|| 

One whom the Lord Himself blesses with His Mercy - the Lord causes him to walk according to His Will. ||6|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

सलोक मः ३ ॥ 

Salok mėhlā 3. 

Shalok, Third Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ॥ 

करम धरम सभि बंधना पाप पुंन सनबंधु ॥ 

Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ banḏẖnā pāp punn san▫banḏẖ. 

Rituals and religions are all just entanglements; bad and good are bound up with them. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਸੁ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਸੁ ਧੰਧੁ ॥ 

ममता मोहु सु बंधना पुत्र कलत्र सु धंधु ॥ 

Mamṯā moh so banḏẖnā puṯar kalṯar so ḏẖanḏẖ. 

Those things done for the sake of children and spouse, in ego and attachment, are just more bonds. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਜੇਵਰੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ॥ 

जह देखा तह जेवरी माइआ का सनबंधु ॥ 

Jah ḏekẖā ṯah jevrī mā▫i▫ā kā san▫banḏẖ. 

Wherever I look, there I see the noose of attachment to Maya. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਵਰਤਣਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਅੰਧੁ ॥੧॥ 

नानक सचे नाम बिनु वरतणि वरतै अंधु ॥१॥ 

Nānak sacẖe nām bin varṯaṇ varṯai anḏẖ. ||1|| 

O Nanak, without the True Name, the world is engrossed in blind entanglements. ||1|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਃ ੪ ॥ 

मः ४ ॥ 

Mėhlā 4. 

Fourth Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਧੇ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਤਾ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ 

अंधे चानणु ता थीऐ जा सतिगुरु मिलै रजाइ ॥ 

Anḏẖe cẖānaṇ ṯā thī▫ai jā saṯgur milai rajā▫e. 

The blind receive the Divine Light, when they merge with the Will of the True Guru. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜੈ ਸਚਿ ਵਸੈ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਅਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 

बंधन तोड़ै सचि वसै अगिआनु अधेरा जाइ ॥ 

Banḏẖan ṯoṛai sacẖ vasai agi▫ān aḏẖerā jā▫e. 

They break their bonds, and dwell in Truth, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਜਿ ॥ 

सभु किछु देखै तिसै का जिनि कीआ तनु साजि ॥ 

Sabẖ kicẖẖ ḏekẖai ṯisai kā jin kī▫ā ṯan sāj. 

They see that everything belongs to the One who created and fashioned the body. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਰਾਖੈ ਲਾਜ ॥੨॥ 

नानक सरणि करतार की करता राखै लाज ॥२॥ 

Nānak saraṇ karṯār kī karṯā rākẖai lāj. ||2|| 

Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Creator - the Creator preserves his honor. ||2|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 

पउड़ी ॥ 

Pa▫oṛī. 

Pauree: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਦਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਥਾਟੁ ਕੀਆ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਤਦਹੁ ਪੁਛਿ ਨ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਬੀਆ ॥ 

जदहु आपे थाटु कीआ बहि करतै तदहु पुछि न सेवकु बीआ ॥ 

Jaḏahu āpe thāt kī▫ā bahi karṯai ṯaḏahu pucẖẖ na sevak bī▫ā. 

When the Creator, sitting all by Himself, created the Universe, he did not consult with any of His servants; 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਦਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਲੇਵੈ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਦੇਵੈ ਜਾਂ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੀਆ ॥ 

तदहु किआ को लेवै किआ को देवै जां अवरु न दूजा कीआ ॥ 

Ŧaḏahu ki▫ā ko levai ki▫ā ko ḏevai jāŉ avar na ḏūjā kī▫ā. 

so what can anyone take, and what can anyone give, when He did not create any other like Himself? 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਫਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕਰਤੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥ 

फिरि आपे जगतु उपाइआ करतै दानु सभना कउ दीआ ॥ 

Fir āpe jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā karṯai ḏān sabẖnā ka▫o ḏī▫ā. 

Then, after fashioning the world, the Creator blessed all with His blessings. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਬਣਾਈਅਨੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆ ॥ 

आपे सेव बणाईअनु गुरमुखि आपे अम्रितु पीआ ॥ 

Āpe sev baṇā▫ī▫an gurmukẖ āpe amriṯ pī▫ā. 

He Himself instructs us in His service, and as Gurmukh, we drink in His Ambrosial Nectar. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰੈ ਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥੭॥ 

आपि निरंकार आकारु है आपे आपे करै सु थीआ ॥७॥ 

Āp nirankār ākār hai āpe āpe karai so thī▫ā. ||7|| 

He Himself is formless, and He Himself is formed; whatever He Himself does, comes to pass. ||7|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

सलोक मः ३ ॥ 

Salok mėhlā 3. 

Shalok, Third Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਸਦ ਸਾਚਾ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥ 

गुरमुखि प्रभु सेवहि सद साचा अनदिनु सहजि पिआरि ॥ 

Gurmukẖ parabẖ sevėh saḏ sācẖā an▫ḏin sahj pi▫ār. 

The Gurmukhs serve God forever; night and day, they are steeped in the Love of the True Lord. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਸਾਚੇ ਅਰਧਿ ਉਰਧਿ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ 

सदा अनंदि गावहि गुण साचे अरधि उरधि उरि धारि ॥ 

Saḏā anand gāvahi guṇ sācẖe araḏẖ uraḏẖ ur ḏẖār. 

They are in bliss forever, singing the Glorious Praises of the True Lord; in this world and in the next, they keep Him clasped to their hearts. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥ 

अंतरि प्रीतमु वसिआ धुरि करमु लिखिआ करतारि ॥ 

Anṯar parīṯam vasi▫ā ḏẖur karam likẖi▫ā karṯār. 

Their Beloved dwells deep within; the Creator pre-ordained this destiny. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 

नानक आपि मिलाइअनु आपे किरपा धारि ॥१॥ 

Nānak āp milā▫i▫an āpe kirpā ḏẖār. ||1|| 

O Nanak, He blends them into Himself; He Himself showers His Mercy upon them. ||1|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

मः ३ ॥ 

Mėhlā 3. 

Third Mehl: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਹਿਐ ਕਥਿਐ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਸਦਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥ 

कहिऐ कथिऐ न पाईऐ अनदिनु रहै सदा गुण गाइ ॥ 

Kahi▫ai kathi▫ai na pā▫ī▫ai an▫ḏin rahai saḏā guṇ gā▫e. 

By merely talking and speaking, He is not found. Night and day, sing His Glorious Praises continually. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮੈ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਭਉਕਿ ਮੁਏ ਬਿਲਲਾਇ ॥ 

विणु करमै किनै न पाइओ भउकि मुए बिललाइ ॥ 

viṇ karmai kinai na pā▫i▫o bẖa▫uk mu▫e billā▫e. 

Without His Merciful Grace, no one finds Him; many have died barking and bewailing. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਭਿਜੈ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ 

गुर कै सबदि मनु तनु भिजै आपि वसै मनि आइ ॥ 

Gur kai sabaḏ man ṯan bẖijai āp vasai man ā▫e. 

When the mind and body are saturated with the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord Himself comes to dwell in his mind. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੨॥ 

नानक नदरी पाईऐ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥२॥ 

Nānak naḏrī pā▫ī▫ai āpe la▫e milā▫e. ||2|| 

O Nanak, by His Grace, He is found; He unites us in His Union. ||2|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 

पउड़ी ॥ 

Pa▫oṛī. 

Pauree: 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपे वेद पुराण सभि सासत आपि कथै आपि भीजै ॥ 

Āpe veḏ purāṇ sabẖ sāsaṯ āp kathai āp bẖījai. 

He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपे ही बहि पूजे करता आपि परपंचु करीजै ॥ 

Āpe hī bahi pūje karṯā āp parpancẖ karījai. 

He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपि परविरति आपि निरविरती आपे अकथु कथीजै ॥ 

Āp parviraṯ āp nirvirṯī āpe akath kathījai. 

He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥ 

आपे पुंनु सभु आपि कराए आपि अलिपतु वरतीजै ॥ 

Āpe punn sabẖ āp karā▫e āp alipaṯ varṯījai. 

He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥੮॥ 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Now you can look into the message and think accordingly.

Prakash.S.Bagga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## bscheema (Jan 29, 2012)

i think talking  about who is more sikh than me and you. fighting cold war on the meaning of shabds , molding it like you want ,and taking Gurbani Guru in between is not a write thing,...
there are many authors came and are still there defining Gurbani.  is there something coming  out of it ... ?:grinningsingh:


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## Harry Haller (Jan 29, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> harry haller said:
> 
> 
> > Gurfatehji
> ...


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## Luckysingh (Jan 29, 2012)

Harryji

This understanding is made quite clear throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Luckyji, if it were that clear, there would not be articles like the following,

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082006/reincarnation.htm

with reference to the above article by Baldev Singh, he is talking about the caste system together with reincarnation and karma. This combined trilogy as according to _Varna Ashrama Dharma_/caste system is what is rejected by Guru Nanak and sikhism. Sikhi makes it clear that we don't transmigrate from one cast to another according to good or bad karma. But we ALL go through 84 lak cycle of different species until we gain human form. It is the Hukam or will of God that puts us all in different places to encounter our different paths in life which are in line with karma. Not that we simply move from one cast to another as believed at that time.


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## Kamala (Jan 29, 2012)

I guess I am a sanatan sikh then. I know what Sanatan Sikhi is even before I came her but I wasn't sure. Also the guru ji even quotes them in the dasam granth. thanks.


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## Kamala (Jan 29, 2012)

But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION (please don't twist the words):

Why does the story of ravidas meeting ganga devi always be mentioned in sikhism? As in them being shown as they are real.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 30, 2012)

Kamala Bhainji

There are lots of other Gods mentioned in the SGGS, but they must be read in context. 

In Sikhism there is only one God, and this is the starting block, our Guruji obviously had a lot of respect for Hinduism to have included stories that agreed with Sikh morality and philosophy


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 30, 2012)

Kamala bhenji, the lines highlighted don't mean that Devi Ganga came in front of Kabeer ji and broke his chains (probably using some saw).

Ganga (and its waves) are metaphor to the swelling of knowledge and wisdom within the soul as it breaks the chains of the mind. Hope you enjoy the Shabad below.

ਗੰਗ ਗੁਸਾਇਨਿ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰ ॥ 
The mother Ganges is deep and profound. 

ਜੰਜੀਰ ਬਾਂਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਖਰੇ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੧॥ 
Tied up in chains, they took Kabeer there. ||1|| 

ਮਨੁ ਨ ਡਿਗੈ ਤਨੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਡਰਾਇ ॥ 
My mind was not shaken; why should my body be afraid? 

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
My consciousness remained immersed in the Lotus Feet of the Lord. ||1||Pause|| 

ਗੰਗਾ ਕੀ ਲਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਟੁਟੀ ਜੰਜੀਰ ॥ 
The waves of the Ganges broke the chains, 

ਮ੍ਰਿਗਛਾਲਾ ਪਰ ਬੈਠੇ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੨॥ 
and Kabeer was seated on a deer skin. ||2|| 

ਕਹਿ ਕੰਬੀਰ ਕੋਊ ਸੰਗ ਨ ਸਾਥ ॥ 
Says Kabeer, I have no friend or companion. 

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਰਾਖਨ ਹੈ ਰਘੁਨਾਥ ॥੩॥੧੦॥੧੮॥ 
On the water, and on the land, the Lord is my Protector.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 30, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Harryji
> 
> This understanding is made quite clear throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Luckyji, if it were that clear, there would not be articles like the following,
> 
> ...



If you are not going to fully read links, please do not comment on them as if you have......

Allow me to quote for you, although I do have better things to do this morning, but as you have merely read the first few lines and made up your own mind as to the rest, I feel I should

Majority of the Sikhs agree that Guru Nanak rejected the caste system. Therefore a question logically arises: If Guru Nanak rejected the caste system then why would he accept its underlying justifications; namely both the karma and reincarnation?

Nanakian philosophy is based on logic, reason, skepticism, awareness, reality, and other factors often associated with critical thinking. It is not based on faith; Guru Nanak urges us to use critical (discerning) intellect in every walk of life.

Most often we encounter his references to the ideas of reincarnation in the AGGS. Just because the Guru is expressing this idea, it doesn’t automatically mean he approves of it. At the least it means that the Guru is conscious of such Hindu beliefs and certainly not giving his accent to the belief as part of his own (Nanakian) philosophy. We, Sikhs, must be extremely careful of this and approach the topic with caution, careful analysis, and proper discussion.

In our existing Punjabi vocabulary and its former usage there is no expressed distinctions between reincarnation and the theory of evolution; they both lie on each other. It is only in the last few decades some of us have smelled the burning rat and decided to reassess what the Gurus espoused; thanks in part to the Western sciences imparting us the gift of critical knowledge of evolutionary biology. Given this, the new knowledge, it is incredibly refreshing to read Gurbani.

Besides, the Sikh Gurus rejected the notion of past life or the life after death, and made it abundantly clear that the present life is the only chance to realize God. For example: O my mind, my dear friend, this is the time for you to meet the Creator. Moreover, this opportunity will last only as long as the body is healthy and full of vitality. AGGS, M 1, p. 20 Take advantage of your birth as a human, this is your only opportunity to meet God. AGGS, M 5, p. 378 “Don’t look to the past, make efforts to make your future life successful by meeting God, because you won’t be born again,” says Nanak. AGGS, M 5, p. 1096 “You won’t be born again, take some measures to obtain salvation right now. Praising the Merciful One, will take you across the ocean of worldly temptations,” says Nanak. AGGS, M 9, p. 220

This is an extremely interesting piece of writing, maybe you should read it in its entirety and then repost your thoughts, 

thank you


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## Luckysingh (Jan 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> If you are not going to fully read links, please do not comment on them as if you have......
> 
> Allow me to quote for you, although I do have better things to do this morning, but as you have merely read the first few lines and made up your own mind as to the rest, I feel I should
> 
> ...


 
Gurfateh Harryji

Thank you for expressing your thoughts.
I must say, that I did read the article entirely,before I posted, and not just the beginning.

We are talking about beliefs here and not something that anyone can prove for certain. Bearing this in mind, I totally respect your belief and thoughts and can understand how you arrive at your conclusion.

But my derived endpoint is different. This is the whole reason I joined the SPN- to learn.
I came here to be exposed to and absorb all views and opinions and then to extract,retain and put to use what I found logical, correct and interesting. We all learn from ourselves and eachother.

Like I said, I respect you for your intepretation of matters, regardless of my agreeing or disagreeing.
We can only make each other come to their own personal conclusions by laying out the information and facts available. Not instilling or dictating beliefs, that is the beauty of Sikhism.

I'm glad that everday can be a learning curve with the help of colleagues and sangat and look forward to learning whilst respecting.


Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 30, 2012)

Harry ji,
Luckysingh ji is very humble. I am not so much. That is a poorly researched and presented article. It's not even worth discussing, it is basically faulty reasoning, with quotes do not support his conclusions, and contradictions. You are better off reading about various Eastern Philosophies and Spiritual Traditions, and how they set-up a world-view (which they all pretty much endorse) and the best way for a man to live in the world. Of course, how to live is applicable without any specific beliefs but you cannot understand a tradition without understanding the beliefs which they use to motivate and encourage one to practice. 

You are better off reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Type in various topics your are interested here in srigranth.org Keywords like reincarnation, incarnation, soul (more advanced form is to use gurmukhi once you figure out the gurmukhi words for your topics) and read what it says about them. Then increase the depth of reading by reading the two teekas that are available there.


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## kds1980 (Jan 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> If you are not going to fully read links, please do not comment on them as if you have......
> 
> Allow me to quote for you, although I do have better things to do this morning, but as you have merely read the first few lines and made up your own mind as to the rest, I feel I should
> 
> ...



Harry ji

Sikhism is now divided in sects .The belief that there no reincarnation or karma came from Sikh missionaries sect in 90s or early 2000s upto then the theory of transmigration was unchallenged .This theory is still accepted by very tiny minority of Sikhs.Sikh scholars like Gyani Sant singh maskeen were firm believer in theory of transmigration of soul
Read the following 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=1177

Q29. What happens to the individual after death?




Human life is just a stage in the upward march of the soul. The individual has got birth as a human being, after going through lower forms of life. Human life is the final stage in the soul's progress to divinity. It is for us to make the most of this opportunity and thereby end our cycle of transmigration.

Death means the destruction of the physical self. The ashes and bone dust mix with the elements. But the soul which leaves the body, awaits a new dwelling. Just as a person casts off worn-out garments and puts on other that are new, so the subtle soul casts off the worn-out body and dwells in a new form. If there were no continuance of the soul after death, how could it become perfect to merit union with the Almighty?

Sikhism believes in the immortality of the soul. The devotee has no fear of the pangs of death. In fact he welcomes death, because it gives him a chance for the merger into Divinity. The evil person, however, dreads death. For him, it will lead to the unending cycle of birth and death. After death, man comes to the next birth according to what he deserves. If he has been wicked and evil, he takes birth in the lower species. If he has done good deeds, he takes birth in a good family. The cycle of birth and death keeps the soul away from Divinity. It can merge with God, only if the individual, by spiritual effort, has amassed the capital of the Name(the Holy spirit as understood by Christians) and thus lives with the Holy Spirit.

Guru Arjan in the Sukhmani dwells on the sad plight of the soul which is not endowed with the Name. The soul in its lonely march through darkness can only find sustenance in the word of God. Otherwise it feels the weariness and pain of isolation.

The soul, Jiva, is a part of God. It is deathless like Him. Before creation, it lived with God. After Creation it takes bodily forms according to His Will. The soul is, however, nourished by virtue and meditation on "The name". The transmigration of the soul can come to an end by meditation and divine grace.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 31, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Gurfateh Harryji
> 
> Thank you for expressing your thoughts.
> I must say, that I did read the article entirely,before I posted, and not just the beginning.
> ...



Luckyji

Let me make myself very clear here, I am fully aware I have a minority viewpoint on this, however, this article does rather suggest that the interpretation you suggested is not as clear or as definitive as you might think. Do I wish to convert everyone I speak to? no, absolutely not, you have come to your beliefs, I have come to mine, but we are both Sikhs, and the fact is, what happens after death is largely irrelevent, as Sikhs we both realise that it is what we do while we are alive that counts. 

I fully respect your viewpoint, Veerji
Gurfateh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 31, 2012)

Once i went to a zoo in Imphal....and there was asign in HINDI and English (obvioulsy )..showing a picture of the Bengal Tiger with the "Pirate sign" of skull and bones underneath. The words said" Only those who beleive very strongly in Re-incarnation/Life after death....may approach the Tiger Cage fearlessly....ALL OTHERS STAY AWAY !!

I obvioulsy took the advise and Stayed at a SAFE DISTANCE....becasue as a SIKH..i DONT BELIEVE in. or fear what will happen after the Tiger has me for lunch...I FEAR and Care for the NOW and HERE...thats what GURBANI is for..Here and NOW.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 31, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> Luckysingh ji is very humble. I am not so much. That is a poorly researched and presented article. It's not even worth discussing, it is basically faulty reasoning, with quotes do not support his conclusions, and contradictions. You are better off reading about various Eastern Philosophies and Spiritual Traditions, and how they set-up a world-view (which they all pretty much endorse) and the best way for a man to live in the world. Of course, how to live is applicable without any specific beliefs but you cannot understand a tradition without understanding the beliefs which they use to motivate and encourage one to practice.
> 
> You are better off reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Type in various topics your are interested here in srigranth.org Keywords like reincarnation, incarnation, soul (more advanced form is to use gurmukhi once you figure out the gurmukhi words for your topics) and read what it says about them. Then increase the depth of reading by reading the two teekas that are available there.



Bhagat Singhji

I actually found this article in complete agreement with my private thoughts on the matter, it touched on many theories I had already arrived at, and I was extremely pleased to find it and read it. The Author has similar views on most facets of Sikhism, and most are at odds with your views, as indeed are mine winkingmunda

I have no wish to study other philosophies at present, as I find studying one hard enough, maybe when I have come to some concrete conclusions like your goodself, then I will have the luxury of doing so. 

The SGGS is indeed for me, the fountain of all wisdom, and I have no shame in admitting that until my ability to read and understand Gurbani as the writer intended it to be understood and read, I have to rely on english translations, some of which are nearer the point than others, as interpretation is an extremely personal thing. Of course there is also my inner God voice which I am guided by, so between my limited Gurbani, certain translations, sangat, and my inner God, I have come to my conclusions that work for me. My conclusions would not work for you, as you are not me, anymore than yours would work for me!

But that is the beauty of Sikhi, We have a broad framework to work within, but at some point, ones view must be entirely personal on subjects that can be seen in many different lights, meditation, reincarnation, meat.. to name but a few. 

Gurfateh


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## Harry Haller (Jan 31, 2012)

Kdsji, 

I had already read this but thanks for the link, I think I covered anything I wished to say in the last two posts.


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## Kamala (Jan 31, 2012)

Well the river of ganges is ruled by Ganga Devi and is her, well personified.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 31, 2012)

Sure Harry ji,
I am willing to discuss the conclusions you reached through your reasoning and reading of SGGS.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 1, 2012)

BhagatSinghji, 

Its quite simple veerji, all references to rebirth are simple changes in personality, all references to animals are traits of animals we possess through evolution.


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent? reincarnation*

*Tuesday, January 31, 2012*

_




_





 Ang 702 • Guru Arjan Dev Ji • Raag Jaithsree


 Listen to the Hukamnama Audio 

 Listen to Kirtan from this Hukam



_



_

*English Translation:* 
*Jaitsree, Fifth Mehl: After wandering through so many incarnations*, I have come to Your Sanctuary. Save me - lift my body up out of the deep, dark pit of the world, and attach me to Your feet. ||1||Pause|| I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure. Please attach me to the hem of the robe of the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; help me to cross over the terrible river. ||1|| Comforts, riches and the sweet pleasures of Maya - do not implant these within your mind. Slave Nanak is satisfied and satiated by the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; his only ornamentation is the love of the Lord's Name. ||2||8||12||



​



*Punjabi Translation:* 
_



_

*Hindi Hukamnama:* 
_



_


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## Harry Haller (Feb 1, 2012)

ਜੈਤਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
जैतसरी महला ५ ॥
Jaiṯsarī mėhlā 5.
Jaitsree, Fifth Mehl:
ਆਏ ਅਨਿਕ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਸਰਣੀ ॥
आए अनिक जनम भ्रमि सरणी ॥
Ā▫e anik janam bẖaram sarṇī.
After wandering through so many incarnations, I have come to Your Sanctuary.
ਉਧਰੁ ਦੇਹ ਅੰਧ ਕੂਪ ਤੇ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਚਰਣੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
उधरु देह अंध कूप ते लावहु अपुनी चरणी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Uḏẖar ḏeh anḏẖ kūp ṯe lāvhu apunī cẖarṇī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Save me - lift my body up out of the deep, dark pit of the world, and attach me to Your feet. ||1||Pause||
ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਨਾਹਿਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਣੀ ॥
गिआनु धिआनु किछु करमु न जाना नाहिन निरमल करणी ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kicẖẖ karam na jānā nāhin nirmal karṇī.
I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure.
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਕੈ ਅੰਚਲਿ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਬਿਖਮ ਨਦੀ ਜਾਇ ਤਰਣੀ ॥੧॥
साधसंगति कै अंचलि लावहु बिखम नदी जाइ तरणी ॥१॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ kai ancẖal lāvhu bikẖam naḏī jā▫e ṯarṇī. ||1||
Please attach me to the hem of the robe of the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; help me to cross over the terrible river. ||1||
ਸੁਖ ਸੰਪਤਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਸ ਮੀਠੇ ਇਹ ਨਹੀ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਰਣੀ ॥
सुख स्मपति माइआ रस मीठे इह नही मन महि धरणी ॥
Sukẖ sampaṯ mā▫i▫ā ras mīṯẖe ih nahī man mėh ḏẖarṇī.
Comforts, riches and the sweet pleasures of Maya - do not implant these within your mind.
ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਪਾਵਤ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰੰਗ ਆਭਰਣੀ ॥੨॥੮॥੧੨॥
हरि दरसन त्रिपति नानक दास पावत हरि नाम रंग आभरणी ॥२॥८॥१२॥
Har ḏarsan ṯaripaṯ Nānak ḏās pāvaṯ har nām rang ābẖarṇī. ||2||8||12||
Slave Nanak is satisfied and satiated by the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; his only ornamentation is the love of the Lord's Name. ||2||8||12||


Essence, my interpretation only, others may feel different, 

Having gone through many personalities, I am ready to take on yours 
Lift me up so that my ego is no more
I have lived my life so far devoid of your word, devoid of your spiritual presence
In the company of like minded souls, I find assistance in finding your word, to be like you
Only when my mind is yours will I be free of the five thieves
Student Nanak is blessed to be in this state, the only thing of value is to have a mind like yours


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## Harry Haller (Feb 1, 2012)

(ĭn'kär-nā'shən) pronunciation
n.

        The act of incarnating.
        The condition of being incarnated.
    Incarnation Christianity. The doctrine that the Son of God was conceived in the womb of Mary and that Jesus is true God and true man.
    A bodily manifestation of a supernatural being.
 One who is believed to personify a given abstract quality or idea.
    A period of time passed in a given bodily form or condition: hopes for a better life in another incarnation.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent? reincarnation*



amarjit singh bamrah said:


> *Tuesday, January 31, 2012*
> 
> _
> 
> ...


 
Where is the reference "PARMATAMAA in Gurbanee?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Feb 1, 2012)

lol


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 1, 2012)

harry haller said:


> BhagatSinghji,
> 
> Its quite simple veerji, all references to rebirth are simple changes in personality, all references to animals are traits of animals we possess through evolution.


Harry ji
Go on. I think you can elaborate much more.

Prakash ji
The reference is in the following shabad on page 421:
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕੇਤਾ ਆਖਣੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਤਾ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
केता आखणु आखीऐ ता के अंत न जाणा ॥
Keṯā ākẖaṇ ākẖī▫ai ṯā ke anṯ na jāṇā.
No matter how much one may describe the Lord, His limits still cannot be known.

ਮੈ ਨਿਧਰਿਆ ਧਰ ਏਕ ਤੂੰ ਮੈ ਤਾਣੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ॥੧॥
मै निधरिआ धर एक तूं मै ताणु सताणा ॥१॥
Mai niḏẖri▫ā ḏẖar ek ṯūŉ mai ṯāṇ saṯāṇā. ||1||
I am without any support; You, O Lord, are my only Support; You are my almighty power. ||1||

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਸਚ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥
नानक की अरदासि है सच नामि सुहेला ॥
Nānak kī arḏās hai sacẖ nām suhelā.
This is Nanak's prayer, that he may be adorned with the True Name.

ਆਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮੇਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आपु गइआ सोझी पई गुर सबदी मेला ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Āp ga▫i▫ā sojẖī pa▫ī gur sabḏī melā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
When self-conceit is eradicated, and understanding is obtained, one meets the Lord, through the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ਹਉਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
हउमै गरबु गवाईऐ पाईऐ वीचारु ॥
Ha▫umai garab gavā▫ī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai vīcẖār.
Abandoning egotism and pride, one obtains contemplative understanding.

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਦੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
साहिब सिउ मनु मानिआ दे साचु अधारु ॥२॥
Sāhib si▫o man māni▫ā ḏe sācẖ aḏẖār. ||2||
When the mind surrenders to the Lord Master, He bestows the support of the Truth. ||2||

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਈ ॥
अहिनिसि नामि संतोखीआ सेवा सचु साई ॥
Ahinis nām sanṯokẖī▫ā sevā sacẖ sā▫ī.
Day and night, remain content with the Naam, the Name of the Lord; that is the true service.

ਤਾ ਕਉ ਬਿਘਨੁ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਚਾਲੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੩॥
ता कउ बिघनु न लागई चालै हुकमि रजाई ॥३॥
Ŧā ka▫o bigẖan na lāg▫ī cẖālai hukam rajā▫ī. ||3||
No misfortune troubles one who follows the Command of the Lord's Will. ||3||

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਸੋ ਪਵੈ ਖਜਾਨੈ ॥
हुकमि रजाई जो चलै सो पवै खजानै ॥
Hukam rajā▫ī jo cẖalai so pavai kẖajānai.
One who follows the Command of the Lord's Will is taken into the Lord's Treasury.

ਖੋਟੇ ਠਵਰ ਨ ਪਾਇਨੀ ਰਲੇ ਜੂਠਾਨੈ ॥੪॥
खोटे ठवर न पाइनी रले जूठानै ॥४॥
Kẖote ṯẖavar na pā▫inī rale jūṯẖānai. ||4||
The counterfeit find no place there; they are mixed with the false ones. ||4||

ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਖਰਾ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
नित नित खरा समालीऐ सचु सउदा पाईऐ ॥
Niṯ niṯ kẖarā samālī▫ai sacẖ sa▫uḏā pā▫ī▫ai.
Forever and ever, the genuine coins are treasured; with them, the true merchandise is purchased.

ਖੋਟੇ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਨੀ ਲੇ ਅਗਨਿ ਜਲਾਈਐ ॥੫॥
खोटे नदरि न आवनी ले अगनि जलाईऐ ॥५॥
Kẖote naḏar na āvnī le agan jalā▫ī▫ai. ||5||
The false ones are not seen in the Lord's Treasury; they are seized and cast into the fire again. ||5||

ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ *ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ* ਸੋਈ ॥
जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
Those who understand their own souls, are themselves *the Supreme Soul*.

ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
एको अम्रित बिरखु है फलु अम्रितु होई ॥६॥
Ėko amriṯ birakẖ hai fal amriṯ ho▫ī. ||6||
The One Lord is the tree of ambrosial nectar, which bears the ambrosial fruit. ||6||

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਅਘਾਈ ॥
अम्रित फलु जिनी चाखिआ सचि रहे अघाई ॥
Amriṯ fal jinī cẖākẖi▫ā sacẖ rahe agẖā▫ī.
Those who taste the ambrosial fruit remain satisfied with Truth.

ਤਿੰਨਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਨ ਰਸਾਈ ॥੭॥
तिंना भरमु न भेदु है हरि रसन रसाई ॥७॥
Ŧinnā bẖaram na bẖeḏ hai har rasan rasā▫ī. ||7||
They have no doubt or sense of separation - their tongues taste the divine taste. ||7||

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਆਇਆ ਚਲੁ ਸਦਾ ਰਜਾਈ ॥
हुकमि संजोगी आइआ चलु सदा रजाई ॥
Hukam sanjogī ā▫i▫ā cẖal saḏā rajā▫ī.
By His Command, and through your past actions, you came into the world; walk forever according to His Will.

ਅਉਗਣਿਆਰੇ ਕਉ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਨਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ॥੮॥੨੦॥
अउगणिआरे कउ गुणु नानकै सचु मिलै वडाई ॥८॥२०॥
A▫ogaṇi▫āre ka▫o guṇ nānkai sacẖ milai vadā▫ī. ||8||20||
Please, grant virtue to Nanak, the virtueless one; bless him with the glorious greatness of the Truth. ||8||20||


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## Harry Haller (Feb 1, 2012)

_Harry ji
Go on. I think you can elaborate much more.
_

I could, much more, however dear Veerjio I have already given my personal essence to yesterdays Hukamnama, given a dictionary reference to the word incarnation, and given you a brief statement of how I see the reincarnation concept in the SGGS, this could end up being a very one sided conversation unless you bring something to the party :grinningsingh:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi Guys..Each so called "teeka-kaar..kathwachak, academic, gyani pandit jathedar whatever has been  interpreting the word TINH(eh) siharee-tata-siharee-nanna meaning THEY..as TEEN..meaning THREE !! (WHAT a Collossal MISTAKE...and every and each academic etc beat the same drum....again and again..until NOW....and the word is so transaprent and clear !!
The word is in Mundawnni Mahalla Panjavan..Thaal vich TINH(eh) Vastu paiyo....THEY - meaning the contributors to the SGGS..Gurus, bhagats, Sheikhs etc...THEY placed the VASTU (one not three)....Sat-SANTOKH....for us to Vechaar (vecharo is a command..a verb..)....
Even the well versed Gurbani grammar specilaist prof sahib Singh missed this..and translated this as THREE vastus..Sat, santokh and Veechar (truth, contemntment and reflection/meditation etc...when this is totally wrong grammar wise, spelling wise.
There is a schoalrly article based on this making the rounds of the mailing lists..a real eye opener. ( OF course the Sant baba mahapurshes of the Taksal take the "Cake" when they insist the so called THREE VASTUS in SGGS are Sugar/Ghee/Atta !!...lol...)

And so many think the Guurs put IN the Lagaan matrans just as DECORATIONS..and Anna Murthi (who just got a prestigious Award form GNDU) had even started a "project" with a million rupee grant form DGMC delhi to CUT and REMOVE all so called "superflous" lagan matra from SGGS and print a Brand new Copy of SGGS MINUS all this "superflous kannas and siharees aunkarrs etc) !! BRILLIANT idea becasue ONCE these Lagana matrans are GONE for GOOD..then TEEN and Tinehe wont make a difference !! What a brilliant move to destroy the SGGS....

So take the so called "translations" of sggs with lots of salt....depend on YOUR OWN INNER CONSCIOUSNESS to connect with t he GURU....


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 11, 2012)

Gyani ji that is an interesting interpretation.
My experience has been that whenever Prof Sahib Singh's teeka failed, Freed Kote Wala teeka totally nailed it. You are right with the Verb  ਵੀਚਾਰੋ. This is something to be done, not an object in the plate. Free Kote get it's meaning right.

The interpretation by the Freed Kote Teeka is as follows:
ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿੰਨਿ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ॥
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾ ਪਇਓ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਅਧਾਰੋ ॥

मुंदावणी महला ५ ॥  
थाल विचि तिंनि वसतू पईओ सतु संतोखु वीचारो ॥  
अम्रित नामु ठाकुर का पइओ जिस का सभसु अधारो ॥  

Munḏāvaṇī mėhlā 5.  
Thāl vicẖ ṯinn vasṯū pa▫ī▫o saṯ sanṯokẖ vīcẖāro.  
Amriṯ nām ṯẖākur kā pa▫i▫o jis kā sabẖas aḏẖāro.  

Mundaavanee, Fifth Mehl:  
Upon this Plate, three things have been placed: Truth, Contentment and Contemplation.  
The Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of our Lord and Master, has been placed upon it as well; it is the Support of all.  

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਰੂਪ ਥਾਲ ਮੈਂ ਤੀਨ ਬਸਤੂ ਰਖੀਆਂ ਹੈਂ ਸਤ ਬੋਲਨਾ ਯਥਾ ਲਾਭ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਏਹ ਵਸਤੂ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਸਮਝੋ ਔਰ ਤੀਸਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰੂਪ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਭ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਆਸਰਾ ਹੈ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਕੋਈ ਜਪੇ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਮੁਕਤ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ॥ 

The three objects in the plate are Sat, Santokh and Naam.


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## Kamala (Feb 12, 2012)

Well there are different storys which were real like Narsimha (Narsingh):


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

Bhenji, 

They are real to you as a Hindu Sikh, and I fully respect that, but they are not real to me, speaking as a Sikh attempting to divorce myself from the myriad of ritual and lies that have crept in over the years.


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## Kamala (Feb 12, 2012)

Well I am speaking in the Guru ji's point of view. These stories are in it saying it is real and you are just using nazaar andaaz. Fully ignoring Sri Narsngh..


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

Kamalaji, 

The SGGS may mention many things as a point of reference, I may for instance, draw your attention to a horse that may look like a unicorn, however this does not mean that I believe in unicorns, I am just using it as a point of reference. 

In Sikhism there is only the one Creator, other than Creator, everything is born, and everything dies, that is what pure Sikhism teaches


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## Kamala (Feb 12, 2012)

I know, I know, I understand there is one creator but these gods/goddesses are small compared to the ultimate. peacesignkaur


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

Bhenji

that may be a Hindu/Sikh view, and again, I completely respect it, but in Sikhism these gods/goddesses are not small, they do not exist period.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 12, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Bhenji
> 
> that may be a Hindu/Sikh view, and again, I completely respect it, but in Sikhism these gods/goddesses are not small, they do not exist period.





Harry Ji...10001% TRUTH. period. All those Mata jis living in various caves vaishno..volcano..chandi...riding lions and tigers..having six arms etc are all pure MYTH.....*BUT as Guru Teg bahadur Ji proved..a Sikh can and will die for the HINDUS RIGHT to beleive in them as reality..*.. I Absolutely LOVE to watch vaishno mata Ji, Narain narian Shiv ji etc Mahabharta..Ramayan..Sri krishna Drama aired 24/7 on Sat channels like Star Ushtav...its good entertainment..much better than the Poojas singing Aseen  Begampumpura Vassaunna hai..aseen navan panth chalunna hai..or Jita zaildar singing..pajero vich rakhee three zero one...aaj banda maran nu jee kardeh.or horny singh singing lukk 28 kurri da...etc types of Lacharvulgar Punjabi songs/ shows which pretend to be "entertainment" but are a pain in the posterior..for me BOTH Vaishno mata' s  MAGIC and Poojas begampura are MYTHS...


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 12, 2012)

Harry ji,
It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.

Cheers


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## Admin (Feb 12, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.
> 
> Cheers


Bhagat Singh ji, so according to you it is ok for a Sikh living in India to believe in these theories sans logic?


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 12, 2012)

Aman Singh ji,
One can believe in it and still not "get it".


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.
> 
> Cheers


Bhagat Singh ji I appreciate your spirit of teamwork with Kamala ji as her spokesperson,






In the end dog is a dog and a cat is a cat.

Let people speak for themselves.  You cannot be a Hindu/Sikh in the same breath.  You either believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru jis teachings, which is not Hinduism nor espouses or encourages Hinduism.  If you don't believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you can be be anything you want.  No need to mix things up per one's own whim and redefine Guru ji's message and teachings for Sikhs.

Tolerance yes, muddying Sikhism NO!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 12, 2012)

What is Hinduism Ambarsaria ji? 

I have used this word for all the evil things that exist in this world. Surely this is a biased perspective. Would you be so kind to share with us just a droplet of your knowledge of Hinduism so that I may correct my bias, and learn the truth about Hinduism.

How is it that a thread about Hindu/Sikh identity has no discussion of Hinduism? Ambarsaria ji, you start it as you seem to know about it.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> What is Hinduism Ambarsaria ji?
> 
> I have used this word for all the evil things that exist in this world. Surely this is a biased perspective. Would you be so kind to share with us just a droplet of your knowledge of Hinduism so that I may correct my bias, and learn the truth about Hinduism.
> 
> How is it that a thread about Hindu/Sikh identity has no discussion of Hinduism? Ambarsaria ji, you start it as you seem to know about it.


Bhagat Singh ji I know what Sikhism is per Guru jis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  I know nothing else.  I have folk knowledge of Hinduism and none of the stuff I have come across as such is supported in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that I have read.

Examples,


Belief in Karma
Belief in Hierarchy of Deities
Role of Brahmins as custodians of knowledge and way to God and the Directorship and Hierarchy of deities
Belief in Re-incarnation
Rituals of Janeau, mundan, holy baths, Havans
Belief in Ramayan, Vedas
Etc.
 I have no problem in someone believing in all above and more, be happy, have a great spiritual and worldly life, but that is not Sikhism.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 12, 2012)

Ok fair enough. And what do you think are the Sikh beliefs?

Oh and those beliefs you listed, are they all evil?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ok fair enough. And what do you think are the Sikh beliefs?


Read SGGS for yourself as you are very well read brother.  I will post along my understandings over time.  Sikh beliefs are what is SGGS.  These cannot be assigned to a post.



			
				BhagatSingh said:
			
		

> Oh and those beliefs you listed, _are they all evil?_


With due respect, please don't put words into my mouth.  The beliefs listed are not Sikh beliefs and have no value to me as a Sikh, as of what I have read of SGGS.  As I read more I will correct my mistakes if I have made any as I learn.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 12, 2012)

*Paji*

*Are  you saying Sikhism does not believe in Karma and reincarnation ?*

*or *

*Is it your branch of Sikhism which does not believe in Karma and reincarnation*

*Or*

*is it that in your interpreations & understanding you do not believe in this?*

Please explain as you have confused me.

I keep reading your interpretation of Gurbani in your understanding
which is your understanding.

I still insist there is no experience then personal experience

I can post my personal Lessons I have recieved from upstairs however
they seem to be not liked nor understood.



*There is only one religion, the religion of Love;
There is only one language, the language of the Heart;
There is only one caste, the caste of Humanity; 
There is only one law, the law of Karma; 
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.




 *
*. amarjit*

(Examples,


Belief in Karma
Belief in Hierarchy of Deities
Role of Brahmins as custodians of knowledge and way to God and the Directorship and Hierarchy of deities
Belief in Re-incarnation
Rituals of Janeau, mundan, holy baths, Havans
Belief in Ramayan, Vedas
Etc.
I have no problem in someone believing in all above and more, be happy, have a great spiritual and worldly life, but that is not Sikhism.

Sat Sri Akal.[/QUOTE])


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2012)

Amarjit Singh Bamrah ji it is not what I say.  There is great elaboration on the topics of "Karma" and "Re-Incarnation" and their irrelevance in Sikhism.  Please search spn and perhaps post your thoughts there.

I love all as much as you so truisms have little value to be continuously re-iterated.



> I can post my personal Lessons I have received from upstairs however
> they seem to be not liked nor understood.


Veer there is only one creator.  We may all experience and understand differently and each can be unique to each of us.  SGGS says that the creator is infinite.  You should not try to box such as I never will.  The creator does not love me more than you or give me a lesson different than you.  Sometimes we get the interpretation of the lesson as we are conditioned and in that way we are both the same but also different.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 12, 2012)

*Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Sikh.*


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> *Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Sikh.*


 

SPji, this does not make sense to me, the original implies there is no Muslim or Hindu, surely intimating we are all potential Sikh, I am not sure what this implies..


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## Harry Haller (Feb 12, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.
> 
> Cheers


 
Dearest Veerji, 

There is no next step, this is at the crux of the very title of this thread.
It is absolutely, that Kamala Bhenji is a Hindu/Sikh, and I am a Sikh, If we were both Sikh I would have serious reservation about her views, but as she has said herself her Sikhi is more Sanatan, and I respect this. The key question is should I give weight to Kamalaji's views given what I know to be correct within Sikhi, and the answer is NO. If Kamalji gets it then I am absolutely delighted for her, and hope I can learn from her in areas that I find compatible within Sikhi. All other views I am happy to debate within Sanatan Sikhism with full respect for her beliefs.

I know its very Nanakian to adopt an all loving attitude, and an all accepting attitude, I try to be both, however, to me, this is the equivilant of arguing with the 11th Master, when the message is clear and unambiguous, and I feel this loving and accepting attutude must be directed by Bani. Of course we must respect all other religions, maybe we should even respect our own first


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 12, 2012)

Harry ji,
The original implies the same thing that SP ji's version 2.0 implies.
You are _atma_, which is neither this nor that. It is neither Hindu nor Sikh. Ok this will only make sense once you know what _atma_ is. Not knowledge as some sort of description of _atma_ but actually knowing in yourself what _atma_ is. Who is that one who has discussions or feels emotions? Who is the one who has pride, greed, anger, lust and attachment? Who is the one who experiences thought as a phenomenon? When you are having discussions with yourself, ask yourself, "who is this whom I am having discussions with?"

Harry ji,
What about those stories and characters in the stories do you find incompatible? You say they are incompatible so why do you think they are mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Cheers

PS there is always a next step.


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## Kamala (Feb 12, 2012)

Karma is in Sikhism though :/.


Thanks for understanding Bhagat ji. kudihug


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 12, 2012)

This Master thesis also does point by point distinction.

http://www.sikhmissionarysociety.org/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> *Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Sikh.*


sp ji good play on a common phrase from the movies.

It is *Na Koi Hindu, Na koi Musilman!

*Listen to Bulley Shah ji again where he talks about dismantling Maseets and Mandirs as it means nothing.  Let us hear from people of those faiths what they think of that idea!  Ayodhia comes to mind!:blowme:  :}--}:  
I don't know what all the smilies stand for but I picked these for the red angry color.  One of the thieves has taken over me in this thread so I am trying to blow steam to get rid of the thief. lol

Sat Sri Akal.*
*


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> This Master thesis also does point by point distinction.
> 
> http://www.sikhmissionarysociety.org/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf


Kanwaljit Singh ji we Sikhs are so gullible.  Many people come here with agendas and not to learn, share or have a logical discourse.  Thanks for your truthful effort though as always.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 12, 2012)

Well let them be aware of a Sikh's agenda, to learn and offer others to learn. If everyone else is wasting their time, what can we do?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 13, 2012)

Some good Nuggets on first read for lovers to chew on :sippingcoffeemunda:.  Great Book, thanks Veer Kanwaljit Singh ji,



> Mr. M.K.Gandhi
> (a) My belief about the Sikh Gurus is that they were all Hindus. I do not regard Sikhism as a religion distinct from Hinduism.  (Young India 1.10.1925)
> (b) The Granth Sahib of the Sikhs is actually based on the Hindu scriptures. (Collected works of M.K.Gandhi page 284)


I really like Bapu jis quotes above, quite an insight why Sikhs got screwed.





> Hindus often try to corrupt the Sikh doctrines and condemn Sikhism as an insignificant religion. They usually make use of Bachittar Natak, a book they assign to Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Guru of the Sikhs and leave no stone unturned to prove that Sikhism is a branch of Hinduism. 10 .....
> 
> They quote spurious portions selectively and ignore those portions of this Granth which attack the fundamental principles of Hinduism. It is for this reason that in this book I have quoted copiously from Bachittar Natak to expose the nefarious tactics such unscrupulous people are adopting.





> In the same vein Dr S. Radhakrishnan, the ex president of India stated,   Sikh Gurus do not claim to teach a new doctrine but only renew the eternal wisdom. Nanak elaborated the views of Vaisnava saints..





> According to Dr Gopal Singh, some have described Sikhism as an offshoot of the Bhakti cult inspired in its main tenets by Kabeer. Others have taken it to be synthesis of Mohammedan monotheism and the Hindu metaphysics. One scholar has even suggested it to be a crude form of Buddhism on account of its insistence on Nirvana minus its atheism.





> A school of Sikhs, called the Nirmalas, who are well versed in Sanskrit and the Hindu scripture, has been interpreting it as a Vedanta creed at best an exposition of the Bhagwad Gita.



I will probably read it end to end.

Let us hear a nice song it is getting hot in here,

Tum Agar Saath Dene Ka Vada Karo (Hamraaz)      - YouTube

Enjoy all, as it answers lot of questions head-on versus 





> "_luba duba do_" translation "I love you"


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes I felt it was very well researched, and over 270 pages 

I am going to save it, hopefully will remember to refer it when faced with questions as such.


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## Luckysingh (Feb 13, 2012)

A fantastic text being a 'must' guide yet it acts as a comprehensive well researched reference.

A big thanks to Kanwaljit SinghJi, this is a very good informative read.

Sat sri akaal
LuckySingh


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 13, 2012)

Big thanks to Kamala ji for helping us explore \m/


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## Kamala (Feb 13, 2012)

L0L I don't know what is going on here, can someone please just breifly tell me because sarcasm isn't the key..


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 13, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> The original implies the same thing that SP ji's version 2.0 implies.
> You are _atma_, which is neither this nor that. It is neither Hindu nor Sikh. Ok this will only make sense once you know what _atma_ is. Not knowledge as some sort of description of _atma_ but actually knowing in yourself what _atma_ is. Who is that one who has discussions or feels emotions? Who is the one who has pride, greed, anger, lust and attachment? Who is the one who experiences thought as a phenomenon? When you are having discussions with yourself, ask yourself, "who is this whom I am having discussions with?"
> 
> ...



Veerji

Although I understand your reasoning, its really very simple, follow Hukam, be at peace in your head, be moderate, be united. 

There is nothing that I find incompatible in the characters and stories, but that is because that is all they are, characters and stories. We both know why they are mentioned, and it what manner they are mentioned, as a reference point, nothing more, nothing less, at least that is what I believe, what is it that you believe?, so that I can understand your point of view


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 13, 2012)

Dear All...
The Respected Author has also written three more excellent books..Islam and Sikhism...Christianity and Sikhism..and Science and Sikhism...all published by the Sikh Missionary Society UK. I have all 3 courtesy of Sardar GS Sidhu Ji sahib. All these also well researched and worth buying/downloading.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 13, 2012)

Dearest Musketeer sorry for the delay in responding ,alas I had to try to 'earn' my daily bread.

Our Udasi Musketeer I agree with,I see no distinction between light,ofcourse the lamp shades differ.

[quote One of the thieves has taken over me in this thread so I am trying to blow steam to get rid of the thief. ][/quote]

Peer Ji 

Sorry to anger thee,it is only that sometimes I just fail to see,any other than he.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 13, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Dearest Musketeer sorry for the delay in responding ,alas I had to try to 'earn' my daily bread.
> 
> Our _*Udasi*_ Musketeer I agree with,I see no distinction between light,ofcourse the lamp shades differ.


Why Udaas (Udasi is the same or is it !) pray tell the Musketeer,

JAB BHI YE DIL UDAAS HOTA HAI - Mohd.Rafi & Sharda - SEEMA (1971)      - YouTube

SP ji says,



> Sorry to anger thee,it is only that sometimes I just _fail to see,any other than_ *he*.


Veer ji I only see *"She" *not "He" like in the following but only spiritually :whatzpointsing:

Mere Sapnon Ki Rani - Rajesh Khanna & Sharmila - Aradhana      - YouTube

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 13, 2012)

> Why Udaas (Udasi is the same or is it !) pray tell the Musketeer


 
Veer Ji

It is hard to sense eachothers personality here,so when Bhagat Singh used to disappear my mind seemed to imagine that he was DOING SAMAADHI ON TOP OF SOME MOUNTAIN type of Sikh,ofocurse he is probably not doing that but my mind seems to fill in the blanks for me.


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## navneetk (Feb 24, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji
> 
> 
> A subject that needs some validation, I am aware that it is not uncommon for Hindus to also pray to Guru Nanakji, which I take as a huge compliment, but given the myriad of deities that Hindus have available to them, it does not seem unreasonable for a Hindu to do this.
> ...


Mr. Harry,

Entire Gurbani talks of Karma and re-births/incarnation/transmigration and what you state is as you prefer the things should be. 

Please do not spoil sikhi or whatever of it is left intact.  However, this forum is free for all. But it should not give any room for error though margin of error may be permissible.  Please read bani first, assimilate and then comment on sikhi or sikh philosophy.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

navneetk said:


> Mr. Harry,
> 
> Entire Gurbani talks of Karma and re-births/incarnation/transmigration and what you state is as you prefer the things should be.
> 
> Please do not spoil sikhi or whatever of it is left intact.  However, this forum is free for all. But it should not give any room for error though margin of error may be permissible.  Please read bani first, assimilate and then comment on sikhi or sikh philosophy.


navneetk ji I quote a phrase, "put your money where your mouth is".  Meaning make the effort to post and enrich and not just talk or one liners, one paras, etc.

Please quote specific shabads supporting your argument and belief.  Don't just wave the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji flag as a shelter from contributing specifically.  I will love to read your contributions on "Karma and re-births/incarnation/transmigration".  I also hope you visit threads covering such topics and contribute there.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Feb 24, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Prakashji,
> 
> This does rather beg the question, how important is the SRM, how definitive is the SRM for Sikhs, is someone not convinced by the SRM still a Sikh?
> 
> There are many sects that totally believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, that do not follow the SRM, that is what makes them sects and not Sikhs, which one are you Prakashji



Dear Harry Ji 

Have been away for a while and I must commend you and others, including Ambarsaria Ji, for the wealth of material on this fine forum

To answer your question directly, I would not regard Hindu/Sikh as a valid adherent. You follow the one or the other. You can't pick and choose and then construct your own variation. If you do, you are neither. I would also suggest no one can claim to have a true/esoteric knowledge or understanding  of what they perceive to be the "real" message of the Scriptures as they are just offering their own interpretation. And if that interpretation goes against the accepted and established tenets of the faith, then again, they are creating their own religion

Re SRM, I have often wondered about the origins of this (not as a means to undermine it but genuinely interested) and will research further. I would welcome yours and others thoughts 

Thanks


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

Sects are creation of personal EGO and personal interests by few people.The avoidance of some nature by the existing Authoity or unable to satisfy the spritual contentment of the people also results in new sects.All SANTWAD and DERAWAD which has been created for vote bank politics ultimately is going to result in new sects.Perhaps the creation of sects is a natural course one has to accept.

In fact there is lot of time required to come for a common way of understanding of a scripture which has never been interprated earlier.So this process of interpretation will contnue for some time untill we come to a common method of inte prating the scripture
Till that time the situation is going to be like that only as earlier interpretaions are also not a guarantee for being upto the mark.That is why we look for something which may be more and more near to GuRmati understanding.
If everything is accepted as totto then obviously there is no need for any 
interpretation.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 24, 2012)

The philosophy of Karam is as simple as:

<TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Salok mėhlā 1.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Shalok, First Mehl:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਸਚਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੂੜੁ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲਖ ਬੇਤਾਲ ॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Sacẖ kāl kūṛ varṯi▫ā kal kālakẖ beṯāl.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">There is a famine of Truth; falsehood prevails, and the blackness of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga has turned men into demons.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਬੀਉ ਬੀਜਿ ਪਤਿ ਲੈ ਗਏ ਅਬ ਕਿਉ ਉਗਵੈ ਦਾਲਿ ॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Bī▫o bīj paṯ lai ga▫e ab ki▫o ugvai ḏāl.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Those who planted their seed have departed with honor; now, how can the shattered seed sprout?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਜੇ ਇਕੁ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਉਗਵੈ ਰੁਤੀ ਹੂ ਰੁਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Je ik ho▫e ṯa ugvai ruṯī hū ruṯ ho▫e.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">If the seed is whole, and it is the proper season, then the seed will sprout.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਹੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਸੋਇ ॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Nānak pāhai bāhrā korai rang na so▫e.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">O Nanak, without treatment, the raw fabric cannot be dyed.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਭੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਖੁੰਬਿ ਚੜਾਈਐ ਸਰਮੁ ਪਾਹੁ ਤਨਿ ਹੋਇ ॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Bẖai vicẖ kẖumb cẖaṛā▫ī▫ai saram pāhu ṯan ho▫e.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">In the Fear of God it is bleached white, if the treatment of modesty is applied to the cloth of the body.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,240); BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(255,69,0); BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 120%">ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤੀ ਜੇ ਰਪੈ ਕੂੜੈ ਸੋਇ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Nānak bẖagṯī je rapai kūrhai so▫e na ko▫e. ॥1॥</TD></TR><TR><TD style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 100%">O Nanak, if one is imbued with devotional worship, his reputation is not false. ॥1॥</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

You reap what you sow. And if you don't sow Satnaam, you reap nothing!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

In Gurbanee the philosophy of KARAM is very articulate.It would be mistake to consider just one sabad and take it as final about that.
There are number of sabads which give different message than this.So it is better to collect all the sabads refering to the concept of KARAM and understand vis a vis every sabad to understand the true concept of KARAM.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 24, 2012)

Prakash Singh ji, Gurbani is not a collection of different messages, but one theme. It could be that our understanding of the message is two sided coin, which we also refer to as duality.


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Feb 24, 2012)

navneetk said:


> Mr. Harry,
> 
> Entire Gurbani talks of Karma and re-births/incarnation/transmigration and what you state is as you prefer the things should be.
> 
> Please do not spoil sikhi or whatever of it is left intact. However, this forum is free for all. But it should not give any room for error though margin of error may be permissible. Please read bani first, assimilate and then comment on sikhi or sikh philosophy.


 

*Satnaam*

*What worries many people in charge is that re-incarnation*
*means the person has been born in previous lives as a Hindu, Muslim, Christian Jew etc*

*This very thought frightens them.*
*So to keep their power and keep control over their Sangat/congregration the Christian and Moslem Priests and Imams preached there is No re-incarnation.*

*They preach embrace  Christian and or Moslem religion and  you are guaranteed a safe passage straight into Heaven.*

*It saddens me much this is now spreading into some Sikhs who have been influenced by this teaching.*

*Re-incarnation exists has always existed.*

*Meditate and you will find the answers. *

*It makes me very sad.*

*amarjit*


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 24, 2012)

Many people also use reincarnation saying that they were non-adherents in previous birth but have now come to the fold of religion. Let us be very frank. We are all living this human life, we are all living on the road. None of us have a place in the Mansion of Lord yet.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 24, 2012)

Ok so all the other Bhagats and Brahmin Bards, total 28, out of which Bhagat Kabir ji is the most quoted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, cannot be Vaishnav and Sikh at the same time? Fine, let's leave them aside.

That leaves 6 Guru Sahib, Mardana and Sheikh Farid ji. Let us look at their bani and consider some of the topics that are brought up. 

If we look at reincarnation then the latter two do not make any mention of it (that makes sense as they are Muslim). Out of the 6 Gurus, Guru Angad Dev ji does not mention reincarnation. That leaves Guru Nanak Dev ji, Guru Amardas ji, Guru Ramdas ji, Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur ji. Let's look at a sample of what each one has to say about reincarnation.

Now remember the issue here is not whether one needs to believe in reincarnation or not to achieve liberation. It is clear that one only need to dissolve one's ego to achieve liberation. This has been known since forever. The Guru Sahibs knows this and so they can get the idea that "liberation can be achieved through dissolving of the ego" across without making reference to reincarnation. (Guru Sahibs' primary role is to help people dissolve their ego. Give them techniques and advice on how to do so. Basically guide them through it. They also listen to their problems and take away their suffering. In doing so they gain large followings, with followings comes gain in power and resources, which they put towards betterment of society, their secondary role.) The question is whether the Gurus actually believed their own word when they say continuously mention reincarnation. Do they believe in reincarnation?

What does everyone make of these shabads?

*Guru Nanak Dev ji*
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਤਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
सतिगुरु पूरा जे मिलै पाईऐ रतनु बीचारु ॥
Saṯgur pūrā je milai pā▫ī▫ai raṯan bīcẖār.
Meeting the Perfect True Guru, we find the jewel of meditative reflection.

ਮਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
मनु दीजै गुर आपणे पाईऐ सरब पिआरु ॥
Man ḏījai gur āpṇe pā▫ī▫ai sarab pi▫ār.
Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
मुकति पदारथु पाईऐ अवगण मेटणहारु ॥१॥
Mukaṯ paḏārath pā▫ī▫ai avgaṇ metaṇhār. ||1||
We find the wealth of liberation, and our demerits are erased. ||1||

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
भाई रे गुर बिनु गिआनु न होइ ॥
Bẖā▫ī re gur bin gi▫ān na ho▫e.
O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom.

ਪੂਛਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨਾਰਦੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पूछहु ब्रहमे नारदै बेद बिआसै कोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Pūcẖẖahu barahme nārḏai beḏ bi▫āsai ko▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. ||1||Pause||

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
गिआनु धिआनु धुनि जाणीऐ अकथु कहावै सोइ ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān ḏẖun jāṇī▫ai akath kahāvai so▫e.
Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken.

ਸਫਲਿਓ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹਰੀਆਵਲਾ ਛਾਵ ਘਣੇਰੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
सफलिओ बिरखु हरीआवला छाव घणेरी होइ ॥
Safli▫o birakẖ harī▫āvlā cẖẖāv gẖaṇerī ho▫e.
He is the fruit-bearing Tree, luxuriantly green with abundant shade.

ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਮਾਣਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
लाल जवेहर माणकी गुर भंडारै सोइ ॥२॥
Lāl javehar māṇkī gur bẖandārai so▫e. ||2||
The rubies, jewels and emeralds are in the Guru's Treasury. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
गुर भंडारै पाईऐ निरमल नाम पिआरु ॥
Gur bẖandārai pā▫ī▫ai nirmal nām pi▫ār.
From the Guru's Treasury, we receive the Love of the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਸਾਚੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਰਮਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
साचो वखरु संचीऐ पूरै करमि अपारु ॥
Sācẖo vakẖar sancẖī▫ai pūrai karam apār.
We gather in the True Merchandise, through the Perfect Grace of the Infinite.

ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਦੁਖ ਮੇਟਣੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
सुखदाता दुख मेटणो सतिगुरु असुर संघारु ॥३॥
Sukẖ▫ḏāṯa ḏukẖ metṇo saṯgur asur sangẖār. ||3||
The True Guru is the Giver of peace, the Dispeller of pain, the Destroyer of demons. ||3||

ਭਵਜਲੁ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਡਰਾਵਣੋ ਨਾ ਕੰਧੀ ਨਾ ਪਾਰੁ ॥
भवजलु बिखमु डरावणो ना कंधी ना पारु ॥
Bẖavjal bikẖam darāvṇo nā kanḏẖī nā pār.
The terrifying world-ocean is difficult and dreadful; there is no shore on this side or the one beyond.

ਨਾ ਬੇੜੀ ਨਾ ਤੁਲਹੜਾ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਵੰਝੁ ਮਲਾਰੁ ॥
ना बेड़ी ना तुलहड़ा ना तिसु वंझु मलारु ॥
Nā beṛī nā ṯulhaṛā nā ṯis vanjẖ malār.
There is no boat, no raft, no oars and no boatman.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੈ ਕਾ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
सतिगुरु भै का बोहिथा नदरी पारि उतारु ॥४॥
Saṯgur bẖai kā bohithā naḏrī pār uṯār. ||4||
The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4||

ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
इकु तिलु पिआरा विसरै दुखु लागै सुखु जाइ ॥
Ik ṯil pi▫ārā visrai ḏukẖ lāgai sukẖ jā▫e.
If I forget my Beloved, even for an instant, suffering overtakes me and peace departs.

ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਲਉ ਜਲਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪੈ ਰਸਾਇ ॥
जिहवा जलउ जलावणी नामु न जपै रसाइ ॥
Jihvā jala▫o jalāvaṇī nām na japai rasā▫e.
Let that tongue be burnt in flames, which does not chant the Naam with love.

ਘਟੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਜਮੁ ਪਕੜੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥੫॥
घटु बिनसै दुखु अगलो जमु पकड़ै पछुताइ ॥५॥
Gẖat binsai ḏukẖ aglo jam pakṛai pacẖẖuṯā▫e. ||5||
When the pitcher of the body bursts, there is terrible pain; those who are caught by the Minister of Death regret and repent. ||5||

ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਗਏ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਨ ਸਾਥਿ ॥
मेरी मेरी करि गए तनु धनु कलतु न साथि ॥
Merī merī kar ga▫e ṯan ḏẖan kalaṯ na sāth.
Crying out, "Mine! Mine!", they have departed, but their bodies, their wealth, and their wives did not go with them.

ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਨੁ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਭੂਲੋ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਥਿ ॥
बिनु नावै धनु बादि है भूलो मारगि आथि ॥
Bin nāvai ḏẖan bāḏ hai bẖūlo mārag āth.
Without the Name, wealth is useless; deceived by wealth, they have lost their way.

ਸਾਚਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥੋ ਕਾਥਿ ॥੬॥
साचउ साहिबु सेवीऐ गुरमुखि अकथो काथि ॥६॥
Sācẖa▫o sāhib sevī▫ai gurmukẖ aktho kāth. ||6||
So serve the True Lord; become Gurmukh, and speak the Unspoken. ||6||

ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
आवै जाइ भवाईऐ पइऐ किरति कमाइ ॥
Āvai jā▫e bẖavā▫ī▫ai pa▫i▫ai kiraṯ kamā▫e.
Coming and going, people wander through reincarnation; they act according to their past actions.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿਉ ਮੇਟੀਐ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖੁ ਰਜਾਇ ॥
पूरबि लिखिआ किउ मेटीऐ लिखिआ लेखु रजाइ ॥
Pūrab likẖi▫ā ki▫o metī▫ai likẖi▫ā lekẖ rajā▫e.
How can one's pre-ordained destiny be erased? It is written in accordance with the Lord's Will.

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੭॥
बिनु हरि नाम न छुटीऐ गुरमति मिलै मिलाइ ॥७॥
Bin har nām na cẖẖutī▫ai gurmaṯ milai milā▫e. ||7||
Without the Name of the Lord, no one can be saved. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are united in His Union. ||7||

ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਾਨੁ ॥
तिसु बिनु मेरा को नही जिस का जीउ परानु ॥
Ŧis bin merā ko nahī jis kā jī▫o parān.
Without Him, I have no one to call my own. My soul and my breath of life belong to Him.

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਉ ਲੋਭੁ ਜਲਉ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
हउमै ममता जलि बलउ लोभु जलउ अभिमानु ॥
Ha▫umai mamṯā jal bala▫o lobẖ jala▫o abẖimān.
May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੮॥੧੦॥
नानक सबदु वीचारीऐ पाईऐ गुणी निधानु ॥८॥१०॥
Nānak sabaḏ vīcẖārī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai guṇī niḏẖān. ||8||10||
O Nanak, contemplating the Shabad, the Treasure of Excellence is obtained. ||8||10||
Page 59

*Guru Amardas ji*
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ घरु १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3 gẖar 1.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl, First House:

ਜਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸਿਰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
जिस ही की सिरकार है तिस ही का सभु कोइ ॥
Jis hī kī sirkār hai ṯis hī kā sabẖ ko▫e.
Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
गुरमुखि कार कमावणी सचु घटि परगटु होइ ॥
Gurmukẖ kār kamāvṇī sacẖ gẖat pargat ho▫e.
The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਚੇ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
अंतरि जिस कै सचु वसै सचे सची सोइ ॥
Anṯar jis kai sacẖ vasai sacẖe sacẖī so▫e.
True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.

ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸੇ ਨ ਵਿਛੁੜਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
सचि मिले से न विछुड़हि तिन निज घरि वासा होइ ॥१॥
Sacẖ mile se na vicẖẖuṛėh ṯin nij gẖar vāsā ho▫e. ||1||
Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
मेरे राम मै हरि बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Mere rām mai har bin avar na ko▫e.
O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.

ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सतगुरु सचु प्रभु निरमला सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur sacẖ parabẖ nirmalā sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
सबदि मिलै सो मिलि रहै जिस नउ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milai so mil rahai jis na▫o āpe la▫e milā▫e.
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਕੋ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
दूजै भाइ को ना मिलै फिरि फिरि आवै जाइ ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ko nā milai fir fir āvai jā▫e.
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਏਕੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
सभ महि इकु वरतदा एको रहिआ समाइ ॥
Sabẖ mėh ik varaṯḏā eko rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.

ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
जिस नउ आपि दइआलु होइ सो गुरमुखि नामि समाइ ॥२॥
Jis na▫o āp ḏa▫i▫āl ho▫e so gurmukẖ nām samā▫e. ||2||
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||

ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜੋਤਕੀ ਵਾਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
पड़ि पड़ि पंडित जोतकी वाद करहि बीचारु ॥
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ joṯkī vāḏ karahi bīcẖār.
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.

ਮਤਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਭਵੀ ਨ ਬੁਝਈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
मति बुधि भवी न बुझई अंतरि लोभ विकारु ॥
Maṯ buḏẖ bẖavī na bujẖ▫ī anṯar lobẖ vikār.
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਭਰਮਦੇ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
लख चउरासीह भरमदे भ्रमि भ्रमि होइ खुआरु ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh bẖaramḏe bẖaram bẖaram ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
पूरबि लिखिआ कमावणा कोइ न मेटणहारु ॥३॥
Pūrab likẖi▫ā kamāvaṇā ko▫e na metaṇhār. ||3||
They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||

ਸਤਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਗਾਖੜੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥
सतगुर की सेवा गाखड़ी सिरु दीजै आपु गवाइ ॥
Saṯgur kī sevā gākẖ▫ṛī sir ḏījai āp gavā▫e.
It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੇਵਾ ਪਵੈ ਸਭ ਥਾਇ ॥
सबदि मिलहि ता हरि मिलै सेवा पवै सभ थाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milėh ṯā har milai sevā pavai sabẖ thā▫e.
Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.

ਪਾਰਸਿ ਪਰਸਿਐ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
पारसि परसिऐ पारसु होइ जोती जोति समाइ ॥
Pāras parsi▫ai pāras ho▫e joṯī joṯ samā▫e.
By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੪॥
जिन कउ पूरबि लिखिआ तिन सतगुरु मिलिआ आइ ॥४॥
Jin ka▫o pūrab likẖi▫ā ṯin saṯgur mili▫ā ā▫e. ||4||
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||

ਮਨ ਭੁਖਾ ਭੁਖਾ ਮਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਮਤ ਤੂ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੂਕਾਰ ॥
मन भुखा भुखा मत करहि मत तू करहि पूकार ॥
Man bẖukẖā bẖukẖā maṯ karahi maṯ ṯū karahi pūkār.
O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰੀ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
लख चउरासीह जिनि सिरी सभसै देइ अधारु ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jin sirī sabẖsai ḏe▫e aḏẖār.
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਸਾਰ ॥
निरभउ सदा दइआलु है सभना करदा सार ॥
Nirbẖa▫o saḏā ḏa▫i▫āl hai sabẖnā karḏā sār.
The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੩॥੩੬॥
नानक गुरमुखि बुझीऐ पाईऐ मोख दुआरु ॥५॥३॥३६॥
Nānak gurmukẖ bujẖī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār. ||5||3||36||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||
Page 27

*Guru Ramdas ji*
ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
बिलावलु महला ४ ॥
Bilāval mėhlā 4.
Bilaaval, Fourth Mehl:

ਹਮ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਮਤੀ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਜਨਮਾ ॥
हम मूरख मुगध अगिआन मती सरणागति पुरख अजनमा ॥
Ham mūrakẖ mugaḏẖ agi▫ān maṯī sarṇāgaṯ purakẖ ajnamā.
I am foolish, idiotic and ignorant; I seek Your Sanctuary, O Primal Being, O Lord beyond birth.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਖਿ ਲੇਵਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹਮ ਪਾਥਰ ਹੀਨ ਅਕਰਮਾ ॥੧॥
करि किरपा रखि लेवहु मेरे ठाकुर हम पाथर हीन अकरमा ॥१॥
Kar kirpā rakẖ levhu mere ṯẖākur ham pāthar hīn akarmā. ||1||
Have Mercy upon me, and save me, O my Lord and Master; I am a lowly stone, with no good karma at all. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਭਜੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੈ ਰਾਮਾ ॥
मेरे मन भजु राम नामै रामा ॥
Mere man bẖaj rām nāmai rāmā.
O my mind, vibrate and meditate on the Lord, the Name of the Lord.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਿ ਤਿਆਗਹੁ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਕਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमति हरि रसु पाईऐ होरि तिआगहु निहफल कामा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmaṯ har ras pā▫ī▫ai hor ṯi▫āgahu nihfal kāmā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Under Guru's Instructions, obtain the sublime, subtle essence of the Lord; renounce other fruitless actions. ||1||Pause||

ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਸੇ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਹਮ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਰਾਖੁ ਉਪਮਾ ॥
हरि जन सेवक से हरि तारे हम निरगुन राखु उपमा ॥
Har jan sevak se har ṯāre ham nirgun rākẖ upmā.
The humble servants of the Lord are saved by the Lord; I am worthless - it is Your glory to save me.

ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਵਡੇ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥੨॥
तुझ बिनु अवरु न कोई मेरे ठाकुर हरि जपीऐ वडे करमा ॥२॥
Ŧujẖ bin avar na ko▫ī mere ṯẖākur har japī▫ai vade karammā. ||2||
I have no other than You, O my Lord and Master; I meditate on the Lord, by my good karma. ||2||

ਨਾਮਹੀਨ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਵਡ ਦੂਖ ਸਹੰਮਾ ॥
नामहीन ध्रिगु जीवते तिन वड दूख सहमा ॥
Nāmhīn ḏẖarig jīvṯe ṯin vad ḏūkẖ sahammā.
Those who lack the Naam, the Name of the Lord, their lives are cursed, and they must endure terrible pain.

ਓਇ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ਮੰਦਭਾਗੀ ਮੂੜ ਅਕਰਮਾ ॥੩॥
ओइ फिरि फिरि जोनि भवाईअहि मंदभागी मूड़ अकरमा ॥३॥
O▫e fir fir jon bẖavā▫ī▫ah manḏ▫bẖāgī mūṛ akarmā. ||3||
They are consigned to reincarnation over and over again; they are the most unfortunate fools, with no good karma at all. ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਧੁਰਿ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਵਡ ਕਰਮਾ ॥
हरि जन नामु अधारु है धुरि पूरबि लिखे वड करमा ॥
Har jan nām aḏẖār hai ḏẖur pūrab likẖe vad karmā.
The Naam is the Support of the Lord's humble servants; their good karma is pre-ordained.

ਗੁਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਫਲੁ ਜਨੰਮਾ ॥੪॥੨॥
गुरि सतिगुरि नामु द्रिड़ाइआ जन नानक सफलु जनमा ॥४॥२॥
Gur saṯgur nām driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā jan Nānak safal jannamā. ||4||2||
The Guru, the True Guru, has implanted the Naam within servant Nanak, and his life is fruitful. ||4||2||
Page 799

*Guru Arjan Dev ji*
ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
गउड़ी गुआरेरी महला ५ ॥
Ga▫oṛī gu▫ārerī mėhlā 5.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਭਏ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਾ ॥
कई जनम भए कीट पतंगा ॥
Ka▫ī janam bẖa▫e kīt paṯangā.
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਜ ਮੀਨ ਕੁਰੰਗਾ ॥
कई जनम गज मीन कुरंगा ॥
Ka▫ī janam gaj mīn kurangā.
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਪੰਖੀ ਸਰਪ ਹੋਇਓ ॥
कई जनम पंखी सरप होइओ ॥
Ka▫ī janam pankẖī sarap ho▫i▫o.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਹੈਵਰ ਬ੍ਰਿਖ ਜੋਇਓ ॥੧॥
कई जनम हैवर ब्रिख जोइओ ॥१॥
Ka▫ī janam haivar barikẖ jo▫i▫o. ||1||
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

ਮਿਲੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
मिलु जगदीस मिलन की बरीआ ॥
Mil jagḏīs milan kī barī▫ā.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

ਚਿਰੰਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੰਜਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
चिरंकाल इह देह संजरीआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Cẖirankāl ih ḏeh sanjarī▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸੈਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕਰਿਆ ॥
कई जनम सैल गिरि करिआ ॥
Ka▫ī janam sail gir kari▫ā.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਗਰਭ ਹਿਰਿ ਖਰਿਆ ॥
कई जनम गरभ हिरि खरिआ ॥
Ka▫ī janam garabẖ hir kẖari▫ā.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ਸਾਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
कई जनम साख करि उपाइआ ॥
Ka▫ī janam sākẖ kar upā▫i▫ā.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
लख चउरासीह जोनि भ्रमाइआ ॥२॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jon bẖarmā▫i▫ā. ||2||
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਭਇਓ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ॥
साधसंगि भइओ जनमु परापति ॥
Sāḏẖsang bẖa▫i▫o janam parāpaṯ.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ॥
करि सेवा भजु हरि हरि गुरमति ॥
Kar sevā bẖaj har har gurmaṯ.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ਤਿਆਗਿ ਮਾਨੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
तिआगि मानु झूठु अभिमानु ॥
Ŧi▫āg mān jẖūṯẖ abẖimān.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
जीवत मरहि दरगह परवानु ॥३॥
Jīvaṯ marėh ḏargėh parvān. ||3||
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੋਆ ਸੁ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਹੋਗੁ ॥
जो किछु होआ सु तुझ ते होगु ॥
Jo kicẖẖ ho▫ā so ṯujẖ ṯe hog.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
अवरु न दूजा करणै जोगु ॥
Avar na ḏūjā karṇai jog.
No one else can do anything at all.

ਤਾ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਲੈਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
ता मिलीऐ जा लैहि मिलाइ ॥
Ŧā milī▫ai jā laihi milā▫e.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥੪॥੩॥੭੨॥
कहु नानक हरि हरि गुण गाइ ॥४॥३॥७२॥
Kaho Nānak har har guṇ gā▫e. ||4||3||72||
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||
Page 176

*Guru Tegh Bahadur ji*
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ਤਿਪਦੇ ॥
रागु रामकली महला ९ तिपदे ॥
Rāg rāmkalī mėhlā 9 ṯipḏe.
Raag Raamkalee, Ninth Mehl, Ti-Padas:

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਓਟ ਲੇਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥
रे मन ओट लेहु हरि नामा ॥
Re man ot leho har nāmā.
O mind, take the sheltering support of the Lord's Name.

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਾਸੈ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जा कै सिमरनि दुरमति नासै पावहि पदु निरबाना ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jā kai simran ḏurmaṯ nāsai pāvahi paḏ nirbānā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Remembering Him in meditation, evil-mindedness is dispelled, and the state of Nirvaanaa is obtained. ||1||Pause||

ਬਡਭਾਗੀ ਤਿਹ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
बडभागी तिह जन कउ जानहु जो हरि के गुन गावै ॥
Badbẖāgī ṯih jan ka▫o jānhu jo har ke gun gāvai.
Know that one who sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord is very fortunate.

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਪਾਪ ਖੋਇ ਕੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਸਿਧਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
जनम जनम के पाप खोइ कै फुनि बैकुंठि सिधावै ॥१॥
Janam janam ke pāp kẖo▫e kai fun baikunṯẖ siḏẖāvai. ||1||
The sins of countless incarnations are washed off, and he attains the heavenly realm. ||1||

ਅਜਾਮਲ ਕਉ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ ਸੁਧਿ ਆਈ ॥
अजामल कउ अंत काल महि नाराइन सुधि आई ॥
Ajāmal ka▫o anṯ kāl mėh nārā▫in suḏẖ ā▫ī.
At the very last moment, Ajaamal became aware of the Lord;

ਜਾਂ ਗਤਿ ਕਉ ਜੋਗੀਸੁਰ ਬਾਛਤ ਸੋ ਗਤਿ ਛਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
जां गति कउ जोगीसुर बाछत सो गति छिन महि पाई ॥२॥
Jāŉ gaṯ ka▫o jogīsur bācẖẖaṯ so gaṯ cẖẖin mėh pā▫ī. ||2||
that state which even the supreme Yogis desire - he attained that state in an instant. ||2||

ਨਾਹਿਨ ਗੁਨੁ ਨਾਹਿਨ ਕਛੁ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਗਜਿ ਕੀਨਾ ॥
नाहिन गुनु नाहिन कछु बिदिआ धरमु कउनु गजि कीना ॥
Nāhin gun nāhin kacẖẖ biḏi▫ā ḏẖaram ka▫un gaj kīnā.
The elephant had no virtue and no knowledge; what religious rituals has he performed?

ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਰਾਮ ਕਾ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਅਭੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਤਿਹ ਦੀਨਾ ॥੩॥੧॥
नानक बिरदु राम का देखहु अभै दानु तिह दीना ॥३॥१॥
Nānak biraḏ rām kā ḏekẖhu abẖai ḏān ṯih ḏīnā. ||3||1||
O Nanak, behold the way of the Lord, who bestowed the gift of fearlessness. ||3||1||
Page 901



			
				Navneetk said:
			
		

> Mr. Harry,
> 
> Entire Gurbani talks of Karma and re-births/incarnation/transmigration and what you state is as you prefer the things should be.





			
				Ambarsaria said:
			
		

> Please quote specific shabads supporting your argument and belief. Don't just wave the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji flag as a shelter from contributing specifically.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ok so all the other Bhagats and Brahmin Bards, total 28, out of which Bhagat Kabir ji is the most quoted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, cannot be Vaishnav and Sikh at the same time? Fine, let's leave them aside.
> 
> That leaves 6 Guru Sahib, Mardana and Sheikh Farid ji. Let us look at their bani and consider some of the topics that are brought up.


Veer Bhagat Singh ji I am tired of commenting on poor selection of words in English translations quoted.  If you plan to close your eyes, accept a given translation verbatim, then there is no discourse with you.  It has to be with the original translator.  If this modus you like, all the power to you.

All I know is that if you make your personal effort to understand (not just believe and quote) and post I will be happy to quote.  You know that taken to the ridiculous whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji can be quoted based on your style.  This  is parroting, copycat, it is not learning from my perspective.  So I will not comment on your straight quotations without you spending a moment to do your own translation.  With doing we learn with copying we don't.  At least that is how it works for me.

If you care to use Prof. Sahib Singh ji's philosophy of showing respect and learning from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then you shouldn't be working on proving points as that is most wasteful.  Wake up everyday, do a shabad without preconceived ideas, you will notice the difference.

Sat Sri Akal.  peacesign


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## Luckysingh (Feb 24, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji 
  I have enjoyed comparing and contrasting these shabads. Below is a briefing of what I made of them.

After studying all 5 shabads, It becomes apparent that one does not have to believe in reincarnation to achieve liberation. This is important.
But, its more a case of what could happen if you don't achieve liberation, why we are here- because countless chances to achieve have failed.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji points us in the direction that we may not have had chances to liberate in the other life forms, but through the sadh sangat we obtain human life form- one chance yet again to achieve liberation.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji points that we act according to past actions and pre ordained destiny cannot be erased. - this doesn't require much elaboration.

Sins of countless reincarnations or chances are washed away when liberated -not just the sins of this life which we are aware of, there are many more from before-IS THE message I get from Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's, He also tells again, that the human life form is when we have a better oppurtunity to achieve liberation as the capabalities of the elephant are restricted.

Guru Ramdas Ji points us at the link of karma. Being human and having this chance is the result of previous good karma? or maybe the ability that a being has to meditate on the naam due to good karma,that a stone otherwise can't attain.

Guru Amardas Ji points us towards the truth, be the truth and we will then meet with the truth OR countless reincarnations. Pre ordained destiny, again cannot be erased. However, he goes on further to mention 'Jin ka▫o pūrab likẖi▫ā ṯin saṯgur mili▫ā ā▫e'- (Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru). This being in reference to those who live the truth, realize the shabad and have their personality in the image of God's own, have a pre-ordained destiny (attained) to meet the Guru which is in contrast to when he mentions the fake pandits,scholars etc that keep getting destined into the reincarnation cycles due to their actions. So, destiny can mean either achieving liberation or cycles of reincarnation.

My gurmukhi is not that good, I can mostly do single words at a time. I have used the engraijhi translations to quote my above perceptions.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> My gurmukhi is not that good, I can mostly do single words at a time. _I have used the engraijhi translations to quote my above perceptions._ Sat kartar Lucky Singh


_Veer Luckysingh ji thanks for your effort.

There in lies the issue for the underlined,

_


> _I have used the engraijhi translations to quote my above perceptions._


_The translator appears overtly inclined to use translations into Yogic, transmigrational space, and so on.  We all have limitations and it appears to be the key limitation of the English translator.  Absolutely no question of the great general contribution.  But when push comes to shove, one needs help from Punjabi and Punjabi sources._

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Luckysingh (Feb 24, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Veer Bhagat Singh ji I am tired of commenting on poor selection of words in English translations quoted. If you plan to close your eyes, accept a given translation verbatim, then there is no discourse with you. It has to be with the original translator. If this modus you like, all the power to you.


.

Ambarsaria ji

This issue regarding the translations has been mentioned in a few posts.

I do give you my regards, for having enough knowledge in being able to rectify such translations.

But, I'm sure there are many like me that have to rely on the translations. Even by utilising these, I'm getting better at translating the gurmukhi word for word, as I always try to read the gurmukhi first, then the english translation.
Doing this I have found small discrepencies occuring occasionally,(So, I know that you have a good reason for what you are saying) and in time I will hopefully notice more.

At present, I have to go by what is available. Dr Sant S. Khalsa, Bhai Manmohan Singh, Kulbir Singh Tind, Singh Sahib Sant Khalsa, Prof Sahib Singh. Not sure if the latter ones are english translations and where.

If there is a certain one or other that you feel we maybe better equiped with or should avoid then please state.

Sat Kartar


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 24, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> .
> 
> Ambarsaria ji
> 
> ...


Veer try the following combo from srigranth.org,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=176&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&fb=0&k=1

What you will notice is that in most parts Dr. Khalsa ji has used Bhai. Manmohan Singh jis Teeka but with subtle nuances in Yogic, transcendental, etc., fashion.

Whenever I do any exercise I read the Gurbani, then Prof. Sahib Singh ji, then Bhai. Manmohan Singh ji and sometimes Dr. Khalsa ji.  

Do I consider any to be perfect?  My humble answer with due respect is, NO.  

Am I perfect? Probably the least perfect of any compared to such good people like Dr. Khalsa ji, Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Prof. Sahib Singh ji with monumental works to their credit.

Following not generalizations but I notice and I watch for when I try to study and post,



Bhai Manmohan Singh ji uses some Punjabi words that I may not understand
Dr. Khalsa ji already stated about Karma; re-incarnation; chanting; meditate; lotus feet; sacrifice to you; etc.
Prof. Sahib Singh ji writes in style of teaching versus clear translation.  It allows you understand but if you want to do translation you have to verbalize what you understood.  Many times straightforward but definitely quite different other times.
Prof. Sahib Singh ji's writing style is of great humility and respect.  Sometimes it creates the inferiority complex translation where one puts self down unnecessarily as a way to show respect.  So I watch for this.

I also use dictionaries at srigranth.org which have Mahan Kosh by Kahan Singh Nabha ji.

For example the basic message of the Shabad Bhagat Singh ji quoted is not much different from,



> After death, cremation we become part of much.  Some grasses, some  trees, some plants, some microorganisms, some life forms will eat parts  of what we become (say grass), give milk and sustain and make another  child strong.  Veer that is not re-incarnation, that is basic creation.


 
Let us also remeber the following,



> Gyani Jarnail Singh ji has also mentioned something very fundamental in the re-incarnation debate if I don't paraphrase it wrongly,  " We re-incarnate when we in this life act like the attributes of one of the other life forms".  It is a great obeservation to dwell on.


Let us also remember a wonderful post by Tejwant Singh ji and I paraphrase how one of his daughters stated,


> We are reborn many times in our lives as every time we change a little.


We cannot approach SGGS ji for answers as a recipe book but an enabler through grace of which we may find answers ourselves and for ourselves.

Sat Sri Akal and I hope above is of some clarity.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 24, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji, Gurbani is not a collection of different messages, but one theme. It could be that our understanding of the message is two sided coin, which we also refer to as duality.


 
That means Gurbanee messages are Dual in understanding.This is what is most important to understand.We have to see the ultimate message which is out of Duality.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




> We all rise from materials and become materials again.




What is this "we" that you are referring to? Something which exists separate from and before the formation of the body or rises at the same time as the body? Is it in fact part of the body or is it that the body is part of it? Is it the owner of the body or the product of the body? Or is it in fact the body itself?




> The legacies we leave can be very living but that is not re-incarnation




Of course it is not, but it is you who keeps insisting on interpreting the reference to the latter as being in fact the former. 

And what of this idea about leaving behind a legacy? If your children and grandchildren think about you or make a reference to what you may have taught them, this is not about you, but about them. It would seem that people who think this way about what they leave behind are only seeking solace in such thoughts.

Are you referring to what is passed on through the genes perhaps? If so, I'll just say that apart from appearance and other physical attributes, it does not take much power of observation to note that any similarities must be not greater than between a given pair of complete strangers. For example you and I may have more similarities in mental behavior than we do with our own parents.  




> and it is plain ignorant to kep believing becoming pig or monkey from your whole body and having been a pig or monkey in some past times suddenly becoming a human being.




But it is you and not anyone else who is making the association of 'self' with the body. To my knowledge, no one has suggested that the human body turns into a pig and vice versa. So really you can't use your own misperception to argue against the other person's beliefs.  At another time you make reference to the existence of 'soul' which exists deep somewhere and distinct from outward appearance. Why is it then that you not think the other person is perhaps talking about transmigration of "soul" and not transformation of "body"?   




> This is plain trash talk. After death, cremation we become part of much. Some grasses, some trees, some plants, some microorganisms, some life forms will eat parts of what we become (say grass), give milk and sustain and make another child strong. Veer that is not re-incarnation, that is basic creation.




While you perhaps think that those who believe in reincarnation are motivated in part by a longing for continued existence, what you state above comes across as no different but with the added flavor of romanticism. 

While annihilationism and eternalism are in fact two opposing views, you appear to entertain both of them at once. You want to stress that with the end of this life, nothing of the person remains, but at the same time you like to believe that part of him exists in the form of other things and this must go on eternally. Are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? And what do you have to say now with regard to the previous identification of self with the physical body and at another time with the concept of 'soul'? Is the self that is locked into the one body now, at death then turn into the many different ones? And what of the soul, does it not exist anymore? 




> Don't get your knickers in a know as you are quite smart but just suffering from excessive information clutter which is quite obvious. You quickly find multiple sources to prove points and this is not learning, trying to continuously prove one is right.




The problem is not information clutter. Regardless of how well read / learned anyone is, it is the nature of ignorance and attachment to 'self', that there is jumping around amongst different views in order to find support. 

Do I expect to convert anyone? Not at all. What I however would be happy with is that those who read in will to a lesser or greater extent, question their understandings in the particular area.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 25, 2012)

Whne Guru Ji mentions the "Elephant" bathing...its a ATTRIBUTE millions of HUMANS have.
What does an elephant do in water..?? IT jumps right in ( Humans jump into Sarovars/teeraths/Ganges River etc)..Then it ses its trunk to throw water all over its body (humans use their cupped hands od dip into the waters)...After the Elephnat is FINISHED..It rushes OUT and on reaching the FIRST DIRT heap..immediately sukcs up the DIRT and SPRAYS it all over its BODY. Immediately after the "cleansing" bath it had..its covered itself in dirt once again. ( Humans emerge from the "purifying waters" of their Teerath/sarovar/holy rivers..etc etc..and IMMEDIATELY begin HEAPING "DIRT" back on themsleves...Dirt of Ninda chuglee, kaamee thoughts, lusty eyes on shapely bodies, anger, krodh, etc etc....in FACT GURBANI clearly declares without a doubt that MOST of the so calle d"pilgrims" who wnet to the teeraths to purify themsleves..in fact returned DIRTIER becasue in addition to whatever paaps etc they went to wash off (impossible to wash the MANN with WATER - itself an exercise in FUTILITY)..their RETURN is LOADED with Extra EGO..hankaar at having WASHED OFF thier imaginary Paaps...

Any Biologist worth his salt can tell us WHY Elephants throw DIRT on their bodies immediately after bathing...the DIRT effectively STICKS to a wet body and provides a "SECURE COVERING" against mosquitoes, bugs etc that irritate the elephant/suck its blood etc. So the odd looking action of the elephant is actually a NATURAL ONE..the Elephant need not have any Gyaan, Knowledge etc...its following its natural instincts..

BUT for HUMANS with BRAINS..knowledge of DHARAM..etc etc..to COPY CAT the Elephant..??????   The Aim of GURU Ji isto EDUCATE the HUMAN do DISCARD this uselss RITUAL which he thinks is DHARAMIK..RELIGIOUS...??? No such thing says Nanak Ji..its so stupid. Guru Ji is UTILISING the Elephant EXAMPLE..to IMPART an important GURMATT PRINCIPLE.

As I mentioned earlier many times...those people rooted in Hindu mythology/dharama etc..just have to notice the word"elephant"...and immediately their minds go into..teh MYTHICAL elephant stuck in some quick sand..the elephant that has no gyaan..no knowledge of dharma etc etc and such "Backwards Compatible" thought process is clearly visible in many translations....even in one of the shabads Bhagat quoted above...( The elephant had no virtue and no knowledge; what religious rituals has he performed?) ............???? why would an elephant need to have "virtue"..dharam and rituals to perform..and why need RITUALS ?? anyway ??


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

If there are no concepts like KARAM /Reincrnations/Transformations etc etc then what is the significance of NAAMu which is the ultimate and Real message of GuRu.?

An important point of consideratin in respect of transformation or reincarnation is that HUMAN FORM is achieved thru SADH SANGATi only.Now the question what this SADH SANGATi referes to in relation to achieving Human Form.?

The above consideration may perhaps give some insight view about what is being said in GuRbanee for reincarnation/Transformation and or Karams.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
Plgive your views of this Sabad as

ਰਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਡਤੇ ਅਧਿਕਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਦੇਹ ਗ੍ਰੇਹ ਸੰਪਤਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ॥ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੈ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਤੇਰੋ ਕਾਲ ਅਵਧ ਆਈ ॥੧॥ ਅਜਾਮਲ ਗਜ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਪਤਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਕੀਨੇ ॥ ਤੇਊ ਉਤਰਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲੀਨੇ ॥੨॥ ਸੂਕਰ ਕੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮੇ ਤਊ ਲਾਜ ਨ ਆਈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਛਾਡਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਾਹੇ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਈ ॥੩॥ ਤਜਿ ਭਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਿਖੇਧ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਹੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਨ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥੪॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 692}

Can we consider every reference of Hindu Philosophy as Metaphor only.?Then what about the every word of Gurbanee to be considered as True as the whole Banee is from True GuRu.

In the above Sabad there is clear message of transmigration as Dogs/Pigs.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 25, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Bj3RE0zv38A#t=95s


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## Kamala (Feb 25, 2012)

Thank you so much Scarlet Pimpernel!


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## Luckysingh (Feb 25, 2012)

Although I don't deny reincarnation, this video regarding Guru Gobind Singh ji's previous life, I'm sorry, I don't really buy that.
I mentioned this in another post about the Dasam Granth. How the integrity of it has been tampered with and diluted over the many years. It's authenticity is a huge question mark.
We have the Guru granth sahib and that is the original sacred granth.

I find it difficult to digest if non of the other gurus ever mentioned previous lives. Also, the Bachittar natak, from which they concluded Hemkund as being a place before his birth, I actually intepreted the description differently along with many many others.

Sat kartar


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

Confused said:


> Ambarsaria ji,...



_Confused ji my response follows.  I have tagged paragraps for clarity as,
_

_*CJ* --->  Confused ji_
_*AJ*---->  Ambarsaria_
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> *AJ:*  We all   rise from materials and become materials again.


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> *CJ:*  What is this "we" that you are referring to? Something which exists separate from and before the formation of the body or rises at the same time as the body? Is it in fact part of the body or is it that the body is part of it? Is it the owner of the body or the product of the body? Or is it in fact the body itself?
> 
> *AJ:* _We are simply materials shaped with living thought.  We continuously and forever, conditions permitting, make transformations between material, material with living thought, material.  There is no continuation of a physical material blob on a one on one basis as long as baby’s are not born as fully grown adults at birth representing a continuation of another adult cat, dog, monkey, chimpanzee or human who may have passed away._





> > *AJ:* _The legacies we leave can be very living_   but that is not re-incarnation
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


 *AJ:  *_Brother Confused ji I do not insist.  I simply believe it to make sense and pose it as such.  I am not offended if someone does not believe in what I believe.  However if they are going to contort Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji wisdom, of what I understand, I protest based on my understanding thereof.  We also need to recognize that we are not as original, as absolute in our living and thought as we may pretend to others or ourselves.  Humans are social and associative animals._


> *CJ:*  And what of this idea about leaving behind a legacy? If your children and grandchildren think about you or make a reference to what you may have taught them, this is not about you, but about them. It would seem that people who think this way about what they leave behind are only seeking solace in such thoughts.
> 
> *AJ:  *_Brother Confused ji there is no solace in such future thoughts that you may interpret from views expressed.  This virtual carrying out parts of others is not in our control or something we can shape.  That is part of creation and living._





> *CJ:*  Are you referring to what is passed on through the genes perhaps? If so, I'll just say that apart from appearance and other physical attributes, it does not take much power of observation to note that any similarities must be not greater than between a given pair of complete strangers. For example you and I may have more similarities in mental behavior than we do with our own parents.
> 
> *AJ:  *_At crude level of observation, yes we may have similarities.  At finer level of observations there are vastly much larger number of smaller similarities with ancestors._<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="33" width="522"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt inset; padding: 0.75pt;">
> </td></tr></tbody></table>*AJ:  *_My pig analogy is related to Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and some others who believe that whole package of a human being is a single transformational entity which as a whole continues to persist but as a single tranche.  I just do not believe this and at least in Eastern philosophies, the way I understand this is how the layman/laywoman are guided by religious preachers.  Are they preaching wrong?  Not for me to judge._





> > *AJ:*  This is   plain trash talk. After death, cremation we become  part of much. Some   grasses, some trees, some plants, some  microorganisms, some life forms will   eat parts of what we become (say  grass), give milk and sustain and make   another child strong. Veer that  is not re-incarnation, that is basic   creation.
> 
> 
> <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="18" width="523"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt inset; padding: 0.75pt;">
> </td></tr></tbody></table>*CJ:* While you perhaps think that those who believe in reincarnation are motivated in part by a longing for continued existence, what you state above comes across as no different but with the added flavor of romanticism.


 *
AJ:* _Confused brother there is huge difference.  I state one to many physical transformation, one to many legacy (spiritual complex legacies) transformations._

_I always understood re-incarnation to be stated as a single unit of life becoming another single unit of life.  Example man becomes serpent, serpent becomes rat, rat becomes pig, pig becomes cow, cow becomes a human, and so on.  This definition of re-incarnation I do not believe in.  It is given great eminence in Hinduism as 8,400,000 forms of life transformations one-on one in a cycle._



> *CJ:*  While annihilationism and eternalism are in fact two opposing views, you appear to entertain both of them at once. _You want to stress that with the end of this life, nothing of the person remains, but at the same time you like to believe that part of him exists in the form of other things and this must go on eternally._ _Are you trying to have your cake and eat it too?_ And what do you have to say now with regard to the previous identification of self with the physical body and at another time with the concept of 'soul'? *(1)*_Is the self that is locked into the one body now, at death then turn into the many different ones?_ *(2)*_And what of the soul, does it not exist anymore? _


 *AJ:  *_Confused Brother ji nothing remains at physical of a person as a unit or material blob and single entity.  Gets transformed into far too many to count.  Say if we were to mark each molecule in our body and trace it over 5, 10 years to see where it went, it could be in all kind of life, things and places._

_At the spiritual level, our interactions and associative soul/spirituality impacts continue to impinge consciously and sub-consciously in lot of lif that we directly or virtually interact with.  Spiritual linkages to Buddha exist for you, spiritual linkages to Guru Nanak Dev ji exist for me, and so on our relationships with people no longer alive through physical or virtual interactions we had or are having with such. _
_No I am not trying to have my cake and eat it too and I hope above explains._

*Specific question 1:*_  Physical body after death is kaput and becomes many different life or other forms._

*Specific Question 2:  *_Soul is a living an transforming entity in life and after death.  In life you have many sensory enablers to enhance spiritual interactions through the five senses.  After death the interactions continue but are limited by legacy and availability of interactions to be shared.  This varied from person to person.  Some like Buddha, Guru Nanak Dev ji even after death hundreds of years ago are interacting better that a person unknown to us in the neighborhood, village/town, city country and the world at large.
_


> *AJ:*  Don't get   your knickers in a know as you are quite smart  but just suffering from   excessive information clutter which is quite  obvious. You quickly find   multiple sources to prove points and this is  not learning, trying to   continuously prove one is right.


_
_<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="23" width="505"><tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes"><td style="border:inset 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:inset windowtext .75pt;   padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
</td></tr></tbody></table>*CJ:*  The problem is not information clutter. Regardless of how well read / learned anyone is, it is the nature of ignorance and attachment to 'self', that _there is jumping around amongst different views_ in order to find support. 

*AJ:  *_Confused Brother ji, I by design or plan I don’t jump around. That however does not prove I have not jumped around.  Jumping around is a natural phenomenon in the process of learning and understanding a specific item.  Jumping around lessens as we start to understand more completely and firmly._

*CJ:*  Do I expect to convert anyone? Not at all. What I however would be happy with is that those who read in will to a lesser or greater extent, question their understandings in the particular area.

*AJ:  *_Intent of my humble response is the same._

Hopefully I have answered but if a miss, error, etc.,  please feel free to flag.

Good to dialog with you.

*PS:*  Sorry folks formatting gremlins/things I don't understand are creating havoc.  I don't have energy to fix right now.  May be later.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 25, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Although I don't deny reincarnation, this video regarding Guru Gobind Singh ji's previous life, I'm sorry, I don't really buy that.
> I mentioned this in another post about the Dasam Granth. How the integrity of it has been tampered with and diluted over the many years. It's authenticity is a huge question mark.
> We have the Guru granth sahib and that is the original sacred granth.
> 
> ...


 
It is really interesting to note that nearlly all stories of PREVIOUS BIRTH phenomena are related to GuRu Gobind Singh ji only. Why so?

This leads to certain design to malign and dilute the basics of Sikh philosophy.

Prakash.s.Bagga
This needs to be understood.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> _It is really interesting to note that nearlly all stories of PREVIOUS BIRTH phenomena are related to GuRu Gobind Singh ji only. Why so?_
> 
> This leads to certain design to malign and dilute the basics of Sikh philosophy.
> 
> ...


_Prakash S. Bagga ji very astute obersvation my veer.

Prakash .S. Bagga ji it is very simple indeed.  Upto Ninth Guru ji, you could not tell a Sikh from a Hindu.  You de-focus Sikhism from Guru Gobind Singh ji, mission accomplished for Hindus.  No more Khalsa and Sikhs officially become part of Hinduism._

_There will be very many and more concerted attempts to sabotage Guru Gobind Singh ji's from Sikhism.__  For example,_


Sanatanism
Dehras
Dasm Granth
etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 25, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




> CJ: What is this "we" that you are referring to? Something which exists separate from and before the formation of the body or rises at the same time as the body? Is it in fact part of the body or is it that the body is part of it? Is it the owner of the body or the product of the body? Or is it in fact the body itself?
> 
> AJ: We are simply materials shaped with living thought.




So you do not identify humans with only the physical form, but with his capacity to experience, think, feel, perceive, having intention and so on as well? Does this mean then that you would revise your previous statement re: "We all rise from materials and become materials again"? And I take it that when you refer to “we”, this is only for the sake of communication and not pointing to something outside of this mental - physical entity? 




> We continuously and forever, conditions permitting, make transformations between material, material with living thought, material. There is no continuation of a physical material blob on a one on one basis as long as baby’s are not born as fully grown adults at birth representing a continuation of another adult cat, dog, monkey, chimpanzee or human who may have passed away.



Could you please explain and elaborate on the following:

1.	Transformation between material, material and living thoughts, material.
2.	Continuation of physical material blob.


Also, please tell me what you mean by "one on one basis" as against not one on one, so that I may come to know better what you are rejecting and what it is that you want to promote?

I’ll respond to the rest of your message after receiving yours to the above.


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## Kamala (Feb 25, 2012)

Lol so you're saying if you don't agree with smething it'd diluted? I mean Dusht Daman is real and is the Guru ji's previous incarnation. Denying that is like.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 25, 2012)

Confused said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> *CJ:*So you do not identify humans with only the physical form, but with his capacity to experience, think, feel, perceive, having intention and so on as well? Does this mean then that you would revise your previous statement re: "We all rise from materials and become materials again"? And I take it that when you refer to “we”, this is only for the sake of communication and not pointing to something outside of this mental - physical entity?
> 
> *AJ:* _
> ...


Thanks for your comments.

Regards.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 26, 2012)

Remember

Dushta daman is not Amrit da daata

Dushta daman is not Sarbans daani

Dushta daman is not father of khalsa

Dushta daman is not aape Gur chela

Dushta daman wasn't tenth Nanak


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 26, 2012)

Dusht Daman Born out of the Cheetah skin on which the mythical Shiva sat for eons of time..is "REAL" ?? get real !!. Sikhs are NOT Harry Puttars.
GURMATT of SGGS is a 21st century modern GYAAN based religion...no such myths allowed here..


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 26, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




> AJ:
> Before conception = Material
> Conception = Material + Life (Growing)
> Living= = Material + Life
> ...






> Before conception = Material



So you choose to identify yourself with that which exists even before there is any possibility of knowing that you exist!?

Indeed judging from what you write at the end, what you are saying is that this in turn is composed of souls coming from all over....?



> Conception = Material + Life (Growing)



By 'life' do you refer to mentality or also some particular kind of materiality?
And this life is a product of the materiality existing prior to it? Do you, like the scientist materialist, see mind as epiphenomena of matter? 

Can you elaborate what significance has the 'growing' have here?




> Living= Material + Life



What is your meaning of ‘living’ here such that you differentiate it from ‘life’? Is conception not an instance of ‘living’ too?



> At Death = Material + Life (Declining)



You may like to correct the above, since it appears to suggest that life continues on for little longer after death. This would then make the concept of birth, life and death rather meaningless.  




> After Cremation= Material



Again what you are doing is identifying with something which does not have any power of knowing what it is or anything at all. 

If you identify a being with materiality before birth and after death, what significance you give to the fact of birth and death? In other words, other than pointing them out, can you tell me what your understanding of these phenomena are?




> CJ: Could you please explain and elaborate on the following:
> 
> 1. Transformation between material, material and living thoughts, material.
> 2. Continuation of physical material blob.
> ...



The first, I now have a vague idea. But I’d still need you to say something about the second. 




> CJ: Also, please tell me what you mean by "one on one basis" as against not one on one, so that I may come to know better what you are rejecting and what it is that you want to promote?
> 
> AJ: Confused ji what I mean is that there is no way that I know of or seen any evidence of how a person at death as a whole (all material when all life has ended in the material) as lock stock and barrel becomes a complete living form using all the material created by a dead body. For that to occur 100% the dead person has to be resuscitated.



I think this is what I was trying to address in my last message. 
Why do you bring the idea of material body transforming into another material body in to argue against the concept of reincarnation when no one has talked about the latter in these terms? 

But I think I see why you can’t help doing this and correct me if I am wrong.

You posit that mind or sentience is the product of materiality. Starting with matter you see that at birth this gives rise to mind. But this is still at the most rudimentary form which then goes through a transformational process whereby it becomes more developed up until a particular point when decay sets in, leading to death. And this probably means that with decay of the physical body, also decline in mental capacity happens.

In this particular scenario it is then hard for you to accept the idea of rebirth / reincarnation the way it is understood. While you have tied mind and its development and decline to the growth and decay of the body, to believe that a particular mind with all its accumulated tendencies can after death “continue” in another form is not tenable. 

Would this be a more or less fair representation of your position Ambarsaria ji?



> So for me at death, body material ends up into many different forms, body life ends up into many lives bugs (maggots for the buried people), germs, etc; the soul continues to disperse and merge with innumerable others as it does while being in an alive person and during life.



And the bug, having eaten from more than one place have in effect not only increased the size of its soul, but made it more variegated than otherwise. And can you explain what you mean by the fact that your soul for example, merges with mine even while both of us are alive?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 26, 2012)

I have never been to the Hindu temple. But there is a Laxman Mandir also in the vicinity of Hemkunt Sahib (it predates the Gurudwara sahib). And many simple 'Sikh' people also visit and pray at temple.

That reminds me, there are many other historical Gurudwaras which have a small temple sharing boundary (and sometimes within the complex) e.g. Poanta Sahib.

I saw a Sikligar community in Hyderabad, which had a roadside temple coming up in the community. People said after the morning darbar at local Gurudwara, many people would go and pray there. A new Granthi ji was asked to come in and he made them get over the practice.

I think the problem is that most of us live in fear, fear of losing wealth, fear of some ill to fall upon the family, fear of dying etc. And in that case, we would 'seek' help from whatever means we can lay hands upon.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 26, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji
> I have enjoyed comparing and contrasting these shabads. Below is a briefing of what I made of them.


 Lucky Singh ji,
I'm glad you enjoyed it. My thoughts on the shabads below yours.


> After studying all 5 shabads, It becomes apparent that one does not have to believe in reincarnation to achieve liberation. This is important.
> But, its more a case of what could happen if you don't achieve liberation, why we are here- because countless chances to achieve have failed.
> 
> Guru Arjan Dev Ji points us in the direction that we may not have had chances to liberate in the other life forms, but through the sadh sangat we obtain human life form- one chance yet again to achieve liberation.




Guru Arjan Dev ji says after being born as animals, plants, etc you have finally been been born as a human to be in the company of Saints (Saadh sangat) so serve them and through Guru's teachings meditate on "Hari, Hari".
Renounce your falsehood and pride. ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥੩॥ - even to truly understand this one already needs to be enlightened. The basic idea is that you die as that false sense of self which sees itself as a distinct entity (_Haumai_). Once you die as that false self while remaining alive you will then be accepted in the Lord's court ie attain liberation.



> Guru Nanak Dev Ji points that we act according to past actions and pre ordained destiny cannot be erased. - this doesn't require much elaboration.


That is a long shabad so I won't go into it but the message is the same as the other shabads. We can try to go into past actions and what that means. The idea that Guru Sahibs are putting across is the notion that the soul because it assumes form (reincarnates) many times, accumulates bad karma. This is no different to the accumulation of bad karma in this life, as one performs bad deeds one's mind gets molded into a evil mind. One who does good deeds through his life is clearly moulding his mind into a good mind. (I'm stating it in a nutshell, good and evil are clearly very complex topics) Accumulation of karma is not some sort of point system. It is a natural transformation of a soul according to the deeds one carries out.
We know that people are born different. One's genes play a big role in how we develop. Some people are born smarter/dumber. Some people are born stronger/weaker. Some people are born good. Due to their genetic predisposition, some are simply more inclined to seek out knowledge and Truth. They tend to develop a virtuous character. The ancients put this phenomenon in terms of past actions and accumulation of karma. The more good karma you have the more inclined you are to seek the Truth in this lifetime. You will seek spiritual wisdom and knowledge in general; you want to learn. Many people are not into that but those with good karma are. You will act according to your genes, you will act according to your past karma and preordained destiny. In this case, you will be more inclined to seek spiritual wisdom and one who is more inclined to seek spiritual wisdom has more chances of liberation than one who does not.

Many of us on the forum have been blessed with good karma in the past, we have a strong desire to know the Truth. We seek it everywhere we go.



> Sins of countless reincarnations or chances are washed away when liberated -not just the sins of this life which we are aware of, there are many more from before-IS THE message I get from Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's, He also tells again, that the human life form is when we have a better oppurtunity to achieve liberation as the capabalities of the elephant are restricted.


Guru Tegh Bahadur ji says through meditation, through Simran on Hari one attains Nirvana ie gets liberated, even from all their past evil actions. Countless such actions from past lives are washed off. One, under that shelter of Simran, becomes freed from accumulated karma. The idea is simple during simran you transcend who you are and become very present and alert. From this presence you can act with freedom. You are no longer limited to your own past karma, your conditioning. You can be whoever you want to be.
An example of this: when you walk to the bus station if you are normally inside your head discussing and thinking, kind of anti-social, not very active and unaware of the outside world. Say you are walking towards your particular bus stop, and you see an old man hurrying to catch his bus, which is about to leave. If today you were doing Simran and were present to the situation, as the doors closed and the bus was about to leave, you run up to it and knock on the door and let the driver know there is someone who needs to get on the bus. You transcend your past karma, your conditioning, the way you normally are, and act with freedom to do whatever you need to. In this case you chose to run and help the old man out.

Overtime you can replace the past bad karma with the new virtuous behaviour (good karma).

Guru Tegh Bahadur ji also mentions Ajaamal as an example of someone who did Simran. Ajaamal was a bad Brahmin, a sinner throughout his life, who in the end (_ant kaal_) cried out the name of his son, whom his Guru named Narayan. Ajaamal uttered Narayan in the last moment and was saved. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/histo...-story-of-great-sinner-ajaamal.html#post45593




> Guru Ramdas Ji points us at the link of karma. Being human and having this chance is the result of previous good karma? or maybe the ability that a being has to meditate on the naam due to good karma,that a stone otherwise can't attain.


I talked about this above under Guru Nanak Dev ji. One with goood karma is more likely to meditate and thus achieve liberation.
ਨਾਮਹੀਨ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਵਡ ਦੂਖ ਸਹੰਮਾ ॥
Those who do not meditate on the Name, they live lives in constant suffering.

ਓਇ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ਮੰਦਭਾਗੀ ਮੂੜ ਅਕਰਮਾ ॥੩॥
They are constantly reincarnated (contantly enter _joon_/species one of the 8.4 million species); they are unfortunate with bad karma.
They are constantly reincarnated because they did nothing about their past karma. If they had meditated and acted from a state of presence, which would give them freedom to develop good karma, they would have escaped the cycle of continuously coming and going in and out of the world.

All _Joons _ undergo suffering but they can be transcended. Once we transcend our joon we become liberated. We become _Ajooni_. Avtars, Gurus, Prophets, etc were _Ajooni_. They transcended their human _joon_. God is _Ajooni_, as he is the transcendental reality. He is not limited to any one particular form, even though he is manifest in all of them.



> Guru Amardas Ji points us towards the truth, be the truth and we will then meet with the truth OR countless reincarnations. Pre ordained destiny, again cannot be erased. However, he goes on further to mention 'Jin ka▫o pūrab likẖi▫ā ṯin saṯgur mili▫ā ā▫e'- (Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru). This being in reference to those who live the truth, realize the shabad and have their personality in the image of God's own, have a pre-ordained destiny (attained) to meet the Guru which is in contrast to when he mentions the fake pandits,scholars etc that keep getting destined into the reincarnation cycles due to their actions. So, destiny can mean either achieving liberation or cycles of reincarnation.


Yes. Some people will tend to seek wisdom more than others. Those who do will find one who has wisdom to share, they find a Guru, and increase their chances of liberation.



> My gurmukhi is not that good, I can mostly do single words at a time. I have used the engraijhi translations to quote my above perceptions.
> 
> Sat kartar
> Lucky Singh


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 26, 2012)

Kanwaljit ji,




Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I think the problem is that most of us live in fear, fear of losing wealth, fear of some ill to fall upon the family, fear of dying etc. And in that case, we would 'seek' help from whatever means we can lay hands upon.



I agree with your observation.
One time a few years ago, while walking past a building where there was a figure of some Hindu god on one corner, I remarked to my friend, that Thai people as they grow richer, become more stupid. This was with reference to the trend at the time, of putting up images of different Hindu gods in front big well known buildings with the hope that people passing by will offer flowers and incense to them. And like you, I remarked that people become more and more superstitious out of fear of losing what they have and / or hope that by doing the kind of thing, they will gain something.

And we can see here, that it is not the Hindus or anyone else that is to be blamed, but each person's own accumulated tendency. And while we sometimes are able to recognize certain gross manifestations of idol worship and ritualistic practice, given our own lack of understanding, I think we should at least acknowledge the possibility of being caught in similar kind of practices although in different form. 

The root of wrong practice is attachment to self, leading to desire for results. So long as we have not seen through this tendency, we will inadvertently do things that come down to as following rules and rituals. It is therefore foolish in my opinion, to keep pointing a finger at other people and involve in blaming games. Because while the attention is to what the index finger is pointing at, the three that is pointed in our direction will continue to have influence and we'll likely end up doing no different from what "they" do. 

Indeed if we are honest, we'd acknowledge the existence of ritualistic practices within the Sikh community that clearly have no relation to any Hindu influence. This is because the tendency to this exists in each one of us and therefore our business should be to recognize this and not waste time pointing fingers at other people. In other words, just because we recognize wrong practices out there, this does not automatically mean that we know and follow right practice, but only that ours is perhaps less obvious. Indeed it could even be that we are fooled by our own explanations with regard to what we do, when the fact is that ours *is* as bad. 

Besides, an outside observer may notice the derision with which remarks are made against the Hindus and wonder if Sikhs are not taught kindness and moral restraint. They may see the claim of protecting one's own religion as in fact an excuse to express aversion. The enemy out there is actually in here and we are feeding it in the name of good.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 26, 2012)

Confused ji thanks for your post.

I do have a few questions as to what one should do when people say wrong about our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and misdirect.


Do nothing and assume such will go away!
Best way to treat a barking dog is to ignore it

State your argument politely and hold strength of your expression to not forceful
Sometimes this goes against one's upbringing
Saying culturally back home, "Shoes on your feet don't listen to reason but need to be forced to fit" (Laton ke boot baton sey nahin mantey)

Sikhism is not a passive religion and culturally we are not passive and we do a bit of "you do, you get"
Why would you consider to be a bad thing between two people so acting or communicating!
I know such is less than ideal!


Buddhism was destroyed in India by Hinduism due to its passivity, why is it not a bad thing and why is it not important for Buddhism to flourish versus being destroyed
I know at a personal level one may say, so what, but is this right in the overall context of human living?

Always great to converse with you.

Regards.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

Confused said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> 
> <table style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" alt="" 0?=""><tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 1pt inset; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 1pt inset; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BACKGROUND: #fbfdff; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8 1pt inset; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 1pt inset; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; mso-border-alt: inset windowtext .25pt">AJ:
> ...


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## Luckysingh (Feb 27, 2012)

Is living just composed of material entities and componets that sustain and give life ?
How about spirituality?

I thought this was an important element of sikhism. Did the gurus not have extreme spiritual strengths, which made them Gurus ??

If we see all with physical scientific aspects and reasoning, then why do even  need a religion ?

I think that understanding can be accomplished by believing in a spiritual sense and does NOT always require reasoning, be it theoritical or not.

Control/purify/cleansing/ having the word of the shabad with and living in truth with, in regards to our Minds (man jithai jagjeet) can only be obtained if spirituality exists along with other qualities. We can't condition our minds with physical, theoretically proven attributes.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Is living just composed of material entities and componets that sustain and give life ?
> How about spirituality?
> 
> I thought this was an important element of sikhism. Did the gurus not have extreme spiritual strengths, which made them Gurus ??
> ...



In my view Luckyji, the spirituality is a direct result of physical attributes, do the one first, the other will follow, live through Hukam, you will feel a spiritual link, chase spirituality, you could end up chasing for a long time and going round quite a few circles :sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 27, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




> I do have a few questions as to what one should do when people say wrong about our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and misdirect.
> 
> 
> Do nothing and assume such will go away!
> Best way to treat a barking dog is to ignore it






I think it is not a matter of deciding to do something or not about it. It is the understanding that the only useful thing that can be done with any certainty is developing one's own understanding about what is good and right and what is not. Things won't go away and therefore one also understands that nothing can be done with regard to such things. 

And when the focus is on developing one's own mind, instead of then perceiving those people as enemies and comparing their activities to dogs barking, there'd perhaps be friendliness and compassion. And putting these two opposite attitudes side by side, one would get a sense of how burdensome the one and how freeing the other is, and perhaps also that it is much more effective to deal with others from kindness than anything else.



> [*]State your argument politely and hold strength of your expression to not forceful
> 
> Sometimes this goes against one's upbringing
> Saying culturally back home, "Shoes on your feet don't listen to reason but need to be forced to fit" (Laton ke boot baton sey nahin mantey)



Due to our own lack of understanding, patience and kindness we see no better course of action than the use of force in dealing with other's behavior. It takes time before we can grow in confidence in the power of good deeds. If you must use force (which btw I don't encourage), then perhaps it is better to bite one's own tongue and resist from expressing any aversion than try to make the other person shut up.

If we can, of course we should express what we think is right but without ill will. But I think it is more important to realize that the focus should be to understand the truth and this is what needs to be conveyed to others. Not just saying this is right and that is wrong.



> [*]Sikhism is not a passive religion and culturally we are not passive and we do a bit of "you do, you get"
> 
> Why would you consider to be a bad thing between two people so acting or communicating!
> I know such is less than ideal!





Forget the culture; forget about how others or even you have reacted in the past. Understand and develop confidence in the power of good and thereby become independent.

Since you mentioned Buddhism, this is what the Buddha said about anger: 
It is very easy to respond to anger with anger, but he who does so is worse than the one whose anger he is reacting to. Why, because knowing how unpleasant anger is, he goes on to react with anger towards that other person. On the other hand to react to anger with kindness and patience is akin to a battle hard-won.  

Patience towards a situation may come across as passive, but is in fact not. It is active, only it is directed towards not being agitated and reacting with anger. A person who only knows to deal with a situation by flexing his muscles will think that the patient person is cowardly. But really, it takes lots of courage not to react to a situation with attachment or aversion. The person who reacts with anger does so with the perception that his action will stop the other person from doing what he does. The patient person does not have any such expectation, yet he willingly faces the situation.





> [*]Buddhism was destroyed in India by Hinduism due to its passivity, why is it not a bad thing and why is it not important for Buddhism to flourish versus being destroyed





First, I’d not think in such terms. It is more a worldly concern and being affected by the actions of other people.

Second, this particular situation you point to is just a story, one thought about with attachment or aversion depending on who is doing it. The imperative therefore, is to understand this.

Third, what determines the worth of Buddhism and whether it indeed still exists or not, is not the number of people who are exposed to and follow it, but the correct understanding of what is taught. This means that one person who understands correctly is more valuable than a million who misunderstand but who will do anything to protect the religion. 

Fourth, to be involved in protecting the religion from corruption is to put oneself in a position of being forever on the lookout. This encourages egocentricity which can’t be good at all.




> [*]I know at a personal level one may say, so what, but is this right in the overall context of human living?




I'll need to understand the true value of the teachings before I can be qualified to say anything positive about it including that it is useful for other people.  And if I wish anyone to gain something of value from the teachings, the best way to do so is by sharing directly what I understand. If on the other hand I am involved in 'protecting' the religion from corruption and miss the point of developing my own understanding, I am also sending out the wrong message to others.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 27, 2012)

Harry ji,




harry haller said:


> In my view Luckyji, the spirituality is a direct result of physical attributes,




Could you explain what you mean by the above?


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

Confused said:


> Harry ji,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course ji, I only speak from personal experience here, but all my life I have been attempting to get in touch with my spiritual self, from Hesse, Plato, meditation, drugs, Monty Python, you name it, Ive tried it! Nothing worked, all wasted time, Between my good wife, and the SGGS, I realised that all I had to do was stop thinking about it, and just do, then the question, what to do, and the answer, do what it says in the book, starting with Mool Mantra, be fearless, truthful, in action and in thought, but first in action, and then once the habit started, the thoughts followed, the discipline became easier, the booze slowed down, the sex slowed down, as did the rich food, after a while, I started to feel a spiritual connection, that had nothing to do with meditation, or thinking and had everything to do with my actions, my actions brought me peace, contentment and connection

hope that helps


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

> Fourth, to be involved in protecting the religion from corruption is to put oneself in a position of being forever on the lookout. This encourages egocentricity which can’t be good at all.


0 You put it well. 

When energy is spent on looking out and crying "Wolf" then there is less energy available for actually understanding the spiritual tradition your in.  But often times the person cannot help it. It is a world-view and something that cannot easily change. What would be the best way to get out of such a position?


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> 0 You put it well. _When energy is spent on looking out and crying "Wolf" then there is less energy available for actually understanding the spiritual tradition your in._  But often times the person cannot help it. It is a world-view and something that cannot easily change. What would be the best way to get out of such a position?


_BhagatSingh ji a corollary must follow your statement.  

When some people spend so much energy to just respond to disturb the peace as to have redeeming value, they have little time left to learn or understand.

_Because they become so wise in the art of evasion and deflection.

You got sucked in by a wrong crowd brother ji, unsuck yourself.  I know there is a chemistry that more one tries to suggest action, less is likely to happen.  So be it.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 27, 2012)

Harry ji,


You wrote:


> hope that helps



It did, in the sense that I thought you meant something else, namely that mental phenomena is a product of material phenomena. 

But allow me to comment on what you wrote and please don't mind that I'm quite critical.
Your original response to Lucky ji:



> Quote:
> In my view Luckyji, the spirituality is a direct result of physical attributes, do the one first, the other will follow, live through Hukam, you will feel a spiritual link, chase spirituality, you could end up chasing for a long time and going round quite a few circles



I do agree with the idea that one should not chase after goodness (your spirituality) and that it is more a product of actions aimed at something else. My reason however is that such aiming is motivated by self and desire for result and therefore can't be good. 

Now on to what you wrote in your message to me.




> Originally Posted by harry haller
> In my view Luckyji, the spirituality is a direct result of physical attributes,
> 
> Could you explain what you mean by the above?



I think one mistake you did was to identify your actions as being “physical attribute”. What you are referring to are in fact mental actions, some perhaps expressed through the body. But mind is always the forerunner, so it was rather misleading to call all this, physical attribute.




> Of course ji, I only speak from personal experience here, but all my life I have been attempting to get in touch with my spiritual self, from Hesse, Plato, meditation, drugs, Monty Python, you name it, Ive tried it! Nothing worked, all wasted time,



The past is gone; the only basis for right knowledge and understanding is “now”. Thinking back about the past and drawing from it any lesson is an instance of ignorance about what is now. It is thinking with aversion or attachment and therefore must involve perversion of perception. So why take it seriously.



> Between my good wife, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I realised that all I had to do was stop thinking about it,



Even this is past and gone, but the thinking now is rooted in what? If it is attachment, then it must be with a perversion of perception, therefore best not taken seriously. If you are reminded about a past good, such as an instance of giving, or morality, or kindness, this could in fact be thought about wholesomely, however even this is gone. 

But is it a correct attitude to say, “stop thinking and just do”? 




> and just do, then the question, what to do, and the answer, do what it says in the book, starting with Mool Mantra, be fearless, truthful, in action and in thought, but first in action,




Did you not arrive at the conclusion through thinking/ reasoning? Even if someone were to follow like sheep, it must still involve some deliberating no? And the “doing”, it must not be just going through the motions but rather with an aim of achieving something, is it not? And what is this something else, is it some spiritual gain? If so, then what is the difference between this and any other course of action aimed at the same? 

And given that it is in fact following some set course of action (since you even suggest it to others) , be it as put forward by someone else or by oneself, how is this not a case of following rules and rituals?



> and then once the habit started, the thoughts followed, the discipline became easier,




This is what you are telling yourself now while thinking in retrospect. You make a connection between things based on what you presently give value to. And what you label as 'discipline', another person may simply admit as being change of habit. Some would even admit to the fact of attachment having simply changed objects.




> the booze slowed down, the sex slowed down, as did the rich food,



The booze there is good reason, since this leads to moral misconduct and therefore could be motivated by even a minimal level of understanding. But even this should be understood as only temporary, since the tendency goes away only with enlightenment. 

The other two on the other hand could well be motivated by attachment, conceit and wrong understanding. While there is still a long way to go before restraint from moral misconduct is developed to any degree, attachment to sense pleasures is reduced only by the highest level of wisdom, one which has seen through the nature of sense contacts and of sense desire. 

Therefore if one thinks to reduce these instead of just developing more understanding about them, this must be due to wrong understanding with regard to their natures, and any subsequent course of action must be motivated by both attachment itself as well as conceit. The result is suppression of some kind and any idea about one's achievement must be delusory.




> after a while, I started to feel a spiritual connection, that had nothing to do with meditation, or thinking and had everything to do with my actions, my actions brought me peace, contentment and connection



The only measure of progress is “now”. Is there more understanding about the nature of this moment, including any thinking that is going on? Is one aware of any attachment, conceit, aversion, feeling, sound, taste and so on that happen to be the object of consciousness at this very moment? If not, then one should at least acknowledge the ignorance, and this would be in fact a step in the right direction. Better this than think that one has made great progress when in fact what is being referred to point to the opposite direction.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 27, 2012)

Bhagat ji,




BhagatSingh said:


> You put it well.
> 
> When energy is spent on looking out and crying "Wolf" then there is less energy available for actually understanding the spiritual tradition your in.  But often times the person cannot help it. It is a world-view and something that cannot easily change. What would be the best way to get out of such a position?




Thank you. But I was in fact deliberating on this point and trying to find another way to express myself. 
One perception I get from reading some of the posts, is that the “enemy”, namely the Hindus, is the result of the writer's own imaginations. What engenders the idea 'Hindu' on reading something which one disagrees with if not some preconception and desire to express displeasure? The mind behaves like a honey ball catching all sort of stuff while rolling down the slope and who can be blamed for this other than the mind itself. 

The one and only way to get out of this or any other situation is the development of understanding along with other good qualities such as kindness, giving, morality, truthfulness, patience, detachment and so on.
I hope this helps.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 27, 2012)

Confused said:


> The one and only way to get out of this or any other situation is the development of understanding along with other good qualities such as kindness, giving, morality, truthfulness, patience, detachment and so on.
> I hope this helps.


_Confused brother ji I usually am quite receptive of your well thought out wisdom, comments and posts. In the above paragraph I disagree. Sikhism did not survive genocide attempts by Islam in the 1500-1700 by following the above mantra. They taught the attackers lessons that are still folklore in parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. _

_Unfortunately history repeats and next time in 21st and beyond centuries, it will not be Islam committing Sikhism genocide softly, culturally and politically but the so called other dominant religion of Humanity and peace in India. It is well underway unbeknown to many._

Sikhs are not a nation of let us love them and understand them as they bleed you to death. This may be true in Buddhism.

Regards.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 27, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




> Because they become so wise in the art of evasion and deflection.



And because you are responding to a post which was a response to mine, I wonder if this is referring to me. Please clarify.




> You got sucked in by a wrong crowd brother ji, unsuck yourself. I know there is a chemistry that more one tries to suggest action, less is likely to happen. So be it.




Again I wonder if this is reference to something I wrote. If it is, I’d like to clarify.
First, actions are either mental, verbal or bodily, therefore there is no occasion when no action is taking place. 
Second, what I consider fruitful are actions motivated by wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion and this may be mental, verbal or physical. 
Third, actions motivated by ignorance, attachment and aversion on the other hand can never lead to any good, except by way of making the other person realize how wrong these are.

This means that I wouldn't conclude that “the more one tries to suggest action, less is likely to happen”, but rather that only the right course of action leads to good results, and if it is wrong course of action, this will only lead to more wrong.


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 27, 2012)

You see Amarbsaria ji, there was no genocide attempt by Islam but a few Afghani warriors (Ahmad Shah Abadli's lot) who had come to India to find resources to feed their families back in Afghanistan, and who simply happened to be Muslim. You see the _zameen_ of Afghanistan was/is not as prosperous as that of Punjab. It did not provide enough produce. If you want to surive you have to get the resources from elsewhere. This is why desert nomadic cultures tend to plunder other lands. Look at the Vikings, who lived in an arctic desert. They plundered other more prosperous lands to feed their families. 

Of course, Sikhs have to defend their lands to feed their families. They must defend themselves with this mantra. 


> development of understanding along with other good qualities such as kindness, giving, morality, truthfulness, patience, detachment and so on.



Just an example in a nutshell. Things are more complicated than they appear. A proper understanding comes from understanding the human condition.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 28, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> You see Amarbsaria ji, there was no genocide attempt by Islam but a few Afghani warriors (Zakriya Khan's lot) who had come to India to find resources to feed their families back in Afghanistan, and who simply happened to be Muslim. You see the _zameen_ of Afghanistan was/is not as prosperous as that of Punjab. It did not provide enough produce. If you want to surive you have to get the resources from elsewhere. This is why desert nomadic cultures tend to plunder other lands. Look at the Vikings, who lived in an arctic desert. They plundered other more prosperous lands to feed their families.
> 
> Of course, Sikhs have to defend their lands to feed their families. They must defend themselves with this mantra.
> _So you support the creation of Khalistan versus the cultural genocide prevelant inPunjab now! I am shocked!peacesign_
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 28, 2012)

Confused said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> And because you are responding to a post which was a response to mine, I wonder if this is referring to me. Please clarify.
> 
> ...


_Sorry confused ji these were not pointed at you but my other brother in this dialog._

_I forgot the greeting you told me that I could close my posts with. Can you please remind. I used to like doing so. I vaguely remember it to be "Makah" or something silimar sounding._


_Thank you._


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 28, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
Forgive me for seeing everyone's problems.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 28, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




> > Originally Posted by Confused
> > The one and only way to get out of this or any other situation is the development of understanding along with other good qualities such as kindness, giving, morality, truthfulness, patience, detachment and so on.
> > I hope this helps.
> 
> ...




Then your concern appears to be towards the preservation of Sikh as a culture, tradition, a particular group of people. It is not an attempt to uphold the good that is taught including those things which I pointed out in the above, namely giving, truthfulness, patience etc, and not to forget tolerance. And it appears to at the same time, you overlook what has been said about the wrongness in aversion, attachment and conceit.

Besides what you state about the possible fate of Sikhism had certain things not happened, is just imagination, apparently conditioned by attachment and fear.  Wisdom does not indulge in such speculations, but understands that nothing can ever be predicted, not even what is going to happen one second from now.




> Unfortunately history repeats and next time in 21st and beyond centuries, it will not be Islam committing Sikhism genocide softly, culturally and politically but the so called other dominant religion of Humanity and peace in India. It is well underway unbeknown to many.



If I may say so, I think you imagine too much and wrongly. All that is good points to the need to attend to the present moment rather than being lost in thought projections. With a mind that is inclined to the now, what would you like to encourage? Is it not to understand?




> Sikhs are not a nation of let us love them and understand them as they bleed you to death. This may be true in Buddhism.



Well, I refer to Buddhism because what it states is true. If it was something which only applied to a particular group of people and within context, I would not have been attracted to it. And I believe that there is much that is taught in Sikhism which I consider good. And forgive me for saying this, I get the impression that you are overlooking these things and got your values all wrong.


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## Archived_member14 (Feb 28, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




Ambarsaria said:


> _Sorry confused ji these were not pointed at you but my other brother in this dialog._
> 
> _I forgot the greeting you told me that I could close my posts with. Can you please remind. I used to like doing so. I vaguely remember it to be "Makah" or something silimar sounding._
> 
> ...



It is Metta which means, goodwill, friendliness or kindness.
Sorry to have misunderstood your intent and thanks for clarifying.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 28, 2012)

Confused ji some comments in blue,





Confused said:


> Then your concern appears to be towards the preservation of Sikh as a culture, tradition, a particular group of people. It is not an attempt to uphold the good that is taught including those things which I pointed out in the above, namely giving, truthfulness, patience etc, and not to forget tolerance.
> 
> <I>Confused ji, the concern is not about preserving per se but having the recognition and thankfulness in actions where people have sacrificed for you to see the ideals of Sikhism upheld which include all you mention.<?"urn:<img src=" /></I>
> 
> ...


Metta


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 28, 2012)

Veero To be adherent has little value ,but to have a love for adherence is what you need,and from that comes adhesion.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 28, 2012)

Confusedji

Many thanks your most enlightened reply. 

_I do agree with the idea that one should not chase after goodness (your spirituality) and that it is more a product of actions aimed at something else. My reason however is that such aiming is motivated by self and desire for result and therefore can't be good. _ Agreed!

_I think one mistake you did was to identify your actions as being “physical attribute”. What you are referring to are in fact mental actions, some perhaps expressed through the body. But mind is always the forerunner, so it was rather misleading to call all this, physical attribute._

I disagree, and I will not quote bani, or argue with you, I will relate personal experience, which is all I have. I am an insomniac, I have real trouble sleeping, when I cannot sleep, I tend to nudge my wife, and as she realises how bad my insomnia is, and to use a french expression, soon I am in la petite mort. Lately, and including last night, I lay awake for hours, I decided to have a bit more respect for my wife, and the act of love, and ended up on my laptop instead reading through this forum. Now I have been doing this for 10 days now, it started with discipline, and was hard, became a habit, and slightly easier, and now I would not dream of waking my wife for this sole reason, the physical action has managed to bypass the mental action, and has in fact educated and trained the mental action to do something else. 

_The past is gone; the only basis for right knowledge and understanding is “now”. Thinking back about the past and drawing from it any lesson is an instance of ignorance about what is now. It is thinking with aversion or attachment and therefore must involve perversion of perception. So why take it seriously.

_

I absolutely disagree with this, and again I will tell you why. I am blessed that I do not look at other women, I do not think about other women, I do not fantasise about other women. I put my hand on my heart and tell you that if a harem of sexy women descended on me, I would not be able to physically perform. Why? because in my youth I indulged in every scenario and fantasy that occurred to me, I have no fantasies left, all the things that I might find myself wishing for, I have not only done, but done to excess, so my past is absolutely important to me, it is my past that has led me to this point where I am today. Hesse, as I have said before, postulated that there were only two ways to enlightenment, through God, and through the flesh, I believe he was correct..


_Even this is past and gone, but the thinking now is rooted in what? If it is attachment, then it must be with a perversion of perception, therefore best not taken seriously. If you are reminded about a past good, such as an instance of giving, or morality, or kindness, this could in fact be thought about wholesomely, however even this is gone. 
_

No, it is the opposite, I am constantly reminded about a past bad, my time in prison, my time as a bankrupt, my time addicted to gambling, my time addicted to drugs/alcohol, women, the lies, the deceit, the shame, lying on a hospital bed facing death from 5 blocked arteries, I wake up every morning and remind myself of those times, and then I look at my wife, my dogs, my simple life, my 1.3L rusty 20 year old Ford, and my eyes fill with tears that all I ever needed was love of Creator and love of Creation and to be able to follow Hukam, and I am so so grateful that finally my time came and I was ready for it, and still alive to be able to enjoy it. I know the pit of despair, I know hell, you never forget it, you should never forget it, in my opinion. There is much to be learnt from it. 

_Did you not arrive at the conclusion through thinking/ reasoning? Even if someone were to follow like sheep, it must still involve some deliberating no? And the “doing”, it must not be just going through the motions but rather with an aim of achieving something, is it not? And what is this something else, is it some spiritual gain? If so, then what is the difference between this and any other course of action aimed at the same? _

Touch a flame, you get burnt, touch it often enough, you get burnt a lot, I am not an educated man, nor am I an intelligent man, all I have is the knowledge that I know all the things that can burn, there was never any rational thought, only the desire for more pleasure, which has now been replaced by the desire for more peace. The difference is that the burning has caused an automatic response, it requires no thinking


_And given that it is in fact following some set course of action (since you even suggest it to others) , be it as put forward by someone else or by oneself, how is this not a case of following rules and rituals?
_

When your thoughts are nothing but a cesspit, but you know in your heart what is right and wrong, don't think, just do what you think is right, and habit will take care of everything else., if someone had given me this advice 20 years ago, maybe I would not have put myself through so much, and my dear parents for that, who I would add never gave up on me.My problem is that I translated thought into action with little consideration to the consequences.

_This is what you are telling yourself now while thinking in retrospect. You make a connection between things based on what you presently give value to. And what you label as 'discipline', another person may simply admit as being change of habit. Some would even admit to the fact of attachment having simply changed objects._

You are absolutely correct, however I would see the above as an improvement, I am now attached to Creator, it is the last and ultimate addiction. 

_The other two on the other hand could well be motivated by attachment, conceit and wrong understanding. While there is still a long way to go before restraint from moral misconduct is developed to any degree, attachment to sense pleasures is reduced only by the highest level of wisdom, one which has seen through the nature of sense contacts and of sense desire. 
_

As I have stated, I am not a clever man, I am happy that my current state is nothing to do with wisdom, that would be the ultimate answer, but I have not the time to understand, and my understanding needs to be focused on a bigger picture, habit will do for the moment, but again, I concede your point as correct

_Therefore if one thinks to reduce these instead of just developing more understanding about them, this must be due to wrong understanding with regard to their natures, and any subsequent course of action must be motivated by both attachment itself as well as conceit. The result is suppression of some kind and any idea about one's achievement must be delusory._

Again, correct, I wish I had your intelligence and vision, but in the absence of both, yes, I have to play games with myself to reach the required level of peace and contentment, it is not ideal, but it works for me. 

_The only measure of progress is “now”. Is there more understanding about the nature of this moment, including any thinking that is going on? Is one aware of any attachment, conceit, aversion, feeling, sound, taste and so on that happen to be the object of consciousness at this very moment? If not, then one should at least acknowledge the ignorance, and this would be in fact a step in the right direction. Better this than think that one has made great progress when in fact what is being referred to point to the opposite direction._

Using my methods, I have rid myself of every addiction I have ever suffered, that is not to say I abstain, I drink, I enjoy good food, I sometimes gamble, rarely, I enjoy lustful moments with my wife, but all in moderation, the last addiction was lust, which I believe I am well on the way to taming, all my addiction is now firmly pointing at Creator, understanding of Creator, the message of Sikhism, the history, the philosophy, it is hopefully my last addiction, I hope I stay addicted, this is one addiction I do not wish to tame, I do not feel I have made great progress, I have little understanding, and a lot of ignorance, but I am slowly finding myself at peace, it is a nice feeling

hope that helps


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## Archived_member14 (Mar 5, 2012)

Harry ji,

I couldn't find time to respond and later decided not to do it. But now I changed my mind and will comment this once and not bother you anymore in this particular discussion.



> Me:
> I think one mistake you did was to identify your actions as being “physical attribute”. …..
> 
> You:
> I disagree, and I will not quote bani, or argue with you, I will relate personal experience, which is all I have. I am an insomniac, I have real trouble sleeping, when I cannot sleep, I tend to nudge my wife, and as she realises how bad my insomnia is, and to use a french expression, soon I am in la petite mort. Lately, and including last night, I lay awake for hours, I decided to have a bit more respect for my wife, …….



Imagine the following:

In a busy shop, you see an opportunity to walk away with a Rolex watch but suddenly think to refrain and not do it.

You see an opportunity to kill the rat which has been sneaking into your house every night and eating things, but experience kindness and refrain.

You are angry and about to shout at someone for an obvious wrong that he did, but see the ugliness of anger and refrain.

You feel horny and about to wake your wife up, but suddenly think that she needs a rest, so you don't wake her up.

Do all these not clearly point to mental actions? 
When you steal or kill, these are bodily actions, but are they not conditioned by the mind? What you refer to as discipline, is this not about will, determination and restraint all mental phenomena? Body is body, it is a physical phenomenon and physical phenomenon, unlike mental phenomenon, does not know anything.  




> Me:
> The past is gone; the only basis for right knowledge and understanding is “now”.
> Thinking back about the past and drawing from it any lesson is an instance of ignorance about what is now………..
> 
> ...



So you still think Hesse had something substantial to say and understood what enlightenment means…..

But frankly I don't understand your response, what point are you making? Besides what I said with reference to the past is not that there is no learning *in* the past, but rather that there is no learning *from thinking about* the past. 

And in case you doubt this, allow me draw your attention to the fact of wise people of all traditions, including I believe Sikhism as well, pointing out the uselessness of thinking about the past and future and the importance being in the present. Indeed given that we think almost all the time with attachment, aversion and ignorance, in this particular case of seeking to learn from the past there must also be wrong understanding involved. And this more than anything else, takes one further away from the possibility of understanding the reality of what is “now”.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that one should not underestimate the power of underlying tendencies. And understand also that it is the nature of mental phenomena, both good and bad, that with each arising, the tendency to it accumulates and the only way that the bad ones can become less is through accumulating more and more understanding as to their nature. The reason you don't feel lust towards Scarlett Johansson wearing a bikini and touching you, is more like in spite of your past experiences and not because of it. If you have not directly understood attachment, more of it has and will continue to accumulate each time that it arises.




> No, it is the opposite, I am constantly reminded about a past bad, my time in prison, my time as a bankrupt, my time addicted to gambling, my time addicted to drugs/alcohol, women, the lies, the deceit, the shame, lying on a hospital bed facing death from 5 blocked arteries, I wake up every morning and remind myself of those times, and then I look at my wife, my dogs, my simple life, my 1.3L rusty 20 year old Ford, and my eyes fill with tears




You are attached to the story of your life as we all are to ours. What is recalled, how different scenes are arranged and what value is given to each and the overall story is dictated by the ignorance and attachment now. Would you want this to continue on or would you rather develop more understanding of thinking and what motivates the thinking? 




> that all I ever needed was love of Creator and love of Creation and to be able to follow Hukam, and I am so so grateful that finally my time came and I was ready for it, and still alive to be able to enjoy it. I know the pit of despair, I know hell, you never forget it, you should never forget it, in my opinion. There is much to be learnt from it.



There can be no real learning when ignorance and attachment is at the root. And it is clear that when such thinking goes on, conceit or ego is being encouraged as well. Knowing this, I'm sure you'd not want this to continue, would you? 



> Touch a flame, you get burnt, touch it often enough, you get burnt a lot, I am not an educated man, nor am I an intelligent man, all I have is the knowledge that I know all the things that can burn, there was never any rational thought, only the desire for more pleasure, which has now been replaced by the desire for more peace. The difference is that the burning has caused an automatic response, it requires no thinking



You do not know thinking well enough then. 

Except for instances of the raw experiences of sense objects such as sound, smell, heat, taste and so on, all other experiences involve thinking. The moment you perceive 'fire', already billions of thought processes have taken place, some of which involving conditioned responses based on past experiences. Even Freud was perceptive enough to have noted that the moment there is vague perception of another human being, immediately the reaction "man or woman?" happens. This means that he acknowledged past influences involving much thinking even before one recognizes whether it is a man or woman there. And I'd add that it is ignorance all the way through, and therefore if you judge any of it as worthwhile in terms of knowledge gained, you are only deluding yourself.   

That said it could be that on the other hand, one has in the past reacted to a particular situation with wisdom, with kindness, or with restrain. And because of understanding, all kinds of good got developed and more easily arose. But I think that this is not what you are pointing at in your suggestions, because if you were, you'd end up agreeing about the need to understand "now". Instead you are trying to make a case for thinking about the past.




> When your thoughts are nothing but a cesspit, but you know in your heart what is right and wrong, don't think, just do what you think is right, and habit will take care of everything else., if someone had given me this advice 20 years ago, maybe I would not have put myself through so much, and my dear parents for that, who I would add never gave up on me.My problem is that I translated thought into action with little consideration to the consequences.



Sometimes we think of doing good, but do not have the necessary energy or zeal. Knowing that this is what we lack can motivate us to right action, but this should not be without understanding because otherwise what invariably happens is that we end up "doing" with ignorance and desire for result.

Indeed when we say "do" and "just do it" and no understanding is present, this is stuff of mischief. While there may be some idea as to the difference between good and evil, one fails at seeing the greater danger in ignorance and attachment to 'self'. This leads to actions aimed at making the self feel good at the expense of knowing what the truth is. And while caught up in the habit, any good maintained can only be due to past accumulated tendencies hence more like in spite of the habit rather than a consequence of it. But there is more.

We identify good with particular outward actions instead of understanding that good as being states of mind, each with different characteristics and functions, for example, kindness is different from morality and both from giving. This leads to overlooking opportunities for good in ordinary situations and going about trying to do good in an idealistic way, driven by self. Indeed often it happens that while we involve in "doing good" in some recognizable way, we do much wrong at other times during our day to day living. For example a businessman may like to give donations to organizations, but is very quick to cut the salary of the housemaid if she breaks some fine chinaware. Or he will hurt anyone in doing business and not feel any shame at all even when it is pointed out to him. 




> You are absolutely correct, however I would see the above as an improvement, I am now attached to Creator, it is the last and ultimate addiction.



If there is improvement, this must refer not to the attachment, but something else.




> As I have stated, I am not a clever man, I am happy that my current state is nothing to do with wisdom, that would be the ultimate answer, but I have not the time to understand, and my understanding needs to be focused on a bigger picture, habit will do for the moment, but again, I concede your point as correct



If there is no wisdom, can anything of value be seen for what it is? 
You say on one hand that there is no wisdom now, yet you go on to make a statement about the need to focus on a bigger picture and how important 'habit' is?




> Me:
> Therefore if one thinks to reduce these instead of just developing more understanding about them, this must be due to wrong understanding with regard to their natures, and any subsequent course of action must be motivated by both attachment itself as well as conceit. The result is suppression of some kind and any idea about one's achievement must be delusory.
> 
> You:
> Again, correct, I wish I had your intelligence and vision, but in the absence of both, yes, I have to play games with myself to reach the required level of peace and contentment, it is not ideal, but it works for me.



I used to consider myself intelligent, but not anymore. (And this is an example of the deception that comes with thinking in retrospect about oneself) But then again, I don't particularly value intelligence, but wisdom, yes. Wisdom to me is Right Understanding which I consider myself to be only at the kindergarten level given the depth of ignorance. But even at this level I can see that it is wrong to judge the value of anything by whether or not it "works for me". The reason is that for those of us who are still essentially fools, desire arises all the time playing the role of both teacher and of student. So it is the teacher who happily leads and the student happily follow, and both are blind due to the presence of ignorance.



> Using my methods, I have rid myself of every addiction I have ever suffered, that is not to say I abstain, I drink, I enjoy good food, I sometimes gamble, rarely, I enjoy lustful moments with my wife, but all in moderation, the last addiction was lust, which I believe I am well on the way to taming, all my addiction is now firmly pointing at Creator, understanding of Creator, the message of Sikhism, the history, the philosophy, it is hopefully my last addiction, I hope I stay addicted, this is one addiction I do not wish to tame, I do not feel I have made great progress, I have little understanding, and a lot of ignorance, but I am slowly finding myself at peace, it is a nice feeling




You can go on with your life as it is without the need to judge any of it as 'progress'. Indeed if you think this way with attachment, this is a step backwards is it not? You should take care not to judge any reduction in sense-indulgence as 'moderation' as this in fact is an aspect of wisdom. If what you do is diversion and / or suppression of some kind, you'd need to know it for what it is and not think that you've made progress in terms of morality and wisdom. And why would someone who seeks to understand, look for peace? So again you should not judge the value of what you do in terms of how much peace you now experience.


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## Navdeep88 (Mar 6, 2012)

Honestly, Harry Ji, I don't think its a "valid" Adherent. But people will do what they want to do... things like synthesizing religions to suit their vision, without exploring either one. End of the day, their loss.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

Hindu/Sikh Adherence is not a practical thought.However each one should understand equally how best they can go together as Going together has no harm.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Mar 6, 2012)

If being a sikh/hindhu adherent helps the person achieve salvation or even helps the person to find God.Then there is nothing wrong with that. Why should we assign a value to it ??
On the other hand if it causes confusion and disruption for the person, then they might find more value and ease adhering to one strongly.

If someone who is a non believer like an atheist, is introduced to a sect like nirinkari,radhswami,AKJ etc....etc... AND a certain mix n match faith helps them to believe in one god, one world, one creator... then we shouldn't be critical. As the criticised has helped the person in one way or the other to BELIEVE, it has given the person hope,chance, faith, understanding ....etc...

In this sense, we shouldn't be judging other adherents. This very self judging can actually drive others away from a faith we are trying to protect.
As sikhs, we should accept people who may only want to come half way whilst remaining elsewhere with other half.
This is as long as it is beneficial for them. If they come looking for help and guidance, then we have the right to suggest they keep both legs in one boat and not one leg in one and one in the other.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

Is it not worth considering a fact how people were acheiving salvation or even found GOD before advent of Sikh Philosophy.
Can we assert all people before advent of Sikhi were deprived of union with GOD and never achieved salvation.?
It is important to understand the valid and relevent points of any philosophy and respect that.This would enable us to live in harmony with each other.This is the actual need of time .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 6, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Is it not worth considering a fact how people were acheiving salvation or even found GOD before advent of Sikh Philosophy.
> *Can we assert all people before advent of Sikhi were deprived of union with GOD and never achieved salvation.?* FALSE and misconceived notion but applicable to Jewish/christian/islamic way/religion.
> It is important to understand the valid and relevent points of any philosophy and respect that.This would enable us to live in harmony with each other.This is the actual need of time .
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Thats a total misconception jios..Sikhism (I prefer GURMATT) NEVER says..ONLY Gurmatt ensures salvation..or finds God for you.......

Its just THAT Gurmatt is faster and better way...of achieving Union with and discovering Him... Its an ULTRA MODERN 24 Lane SUPER HIGHWAY or autobahn...with NO SPEED LIMITS...so to assume that BEFORE the construction of this super Highway..people had "no way" of travelling/going from one place to another..blah blah..is FALSE argument. Before the Highway..there were forest trails..pag-dandees..kachee sarrk..small roads..etc etc...and people did travel along them..and did reach their DESTINATIONS...

Gurmatt is the fast supersonic Concorde..the Discovery Craft...but before that Man did travel using donkeys, camels bicycles..bullock carts..cars and locomotives as well as ships...boats......still this doenst mena that before the concord made air travel at speed of sound..people just sat where they were BORN and died there...


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## Luckysingh (Mar 6, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Is it not worth considering a fact how people were acheiving salvation or even found GOD before advent of Sikh Philosophy.
> Can we assert all people before advent of Sikhi were deprived of union with GOD and never achieved salvation.?
> It is important to understand the valid and relevent points of any philosophy and respect that.This would enable us to live in harmony with each other.This is the actual need of time .
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 

Prakash ji
 We can't say it is not worth considering. You mention the actual time of need in the end of your post.
Now, is the time and there are people who have no belief, no faith ...etc.
These people need something to embrace. Even if it means a half way mix,- this would be better than nothing.

When we compare Sikhism to the half way mixtures, then it becomes a much different view. But, when you compare the half way mixtures to nothing, then they themselves become a blessing.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Thats a total misconception jios..Sikhism (I prefer GURMATT) NEVER says..ONLY Gurmatt ensures salvation..or finds God for you.......
> 
> Its just THAT Gurmatt is faster and better way...of achieving Union with and discovering Him... Its an ULTRA MODERN 24 Lane SUPER HIGHWAY or autobahn...with NO SPEED LIMITS...so to assume that BEFORE the construction of this super Highway..people had "no way" of travelling/going from one place to another..blah blah..is FALSE argument. Before the Highway..there were forest trails..pag-dandees..kachee sarrk..small roads..etc etc...and people did travel along them..and did reach their DESTINATIONS...
> 
> Gurmatt is the fast supersonic Concorde..the Discovery Craft...but before that Man did travel using donkeys, camels bicycles..bullock carts..cars and locomotives as well as ships...boats......still this doenst mena that before the concord made air travel at speed of sound..people just sat where they were BORN and died there...


 

There is no doubt what you have stated.But How we take this concept to others  that is important.Are we right in rejecting others outrightly and prove ourselves THE BEST.My concern is for the modus operandi 
We need to our style of presenting our concept vis a vis others without compromising the Basic  Concepts of Sikh Philosophy.
A Banee being refered as Apex of all Banees till date should not beused as a tool to disgarce others viiews rather that this should be used for creation of better and unison understanding.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Mar 6, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Thats a total misconception jios..Sikhism (I prefer GURMATT) NEVER says..ONLY Gurmatt ensures salvation..or finds God for you.......
> 
> Its just THAT Gurmatt is faster and better way...of achieving Union with and discovering Him... Its an ULTRA MODERN 24 Lane SUPER HIGHWAY or autobahn...with NO SPEED LIMITS
> 
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

AMARJIT SINGh BAMRAH Ji,
From your post I feel you have misconstrued the message from GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Ji.
He is also telling the same thing what you are presenting in an elaborated way.He is talking THE GURMATi way which is obviously Meditation and Simran.
Now the question we all talk about meditation but no one tells what to meditate as per SGGS  and what is Gurmati way of Meditation.?
I hope you can throw some light from your experience of meditation..
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Prakash ji
> We can't say it is not worth considering. You mention the actual time of need in the end of your post.
> Now, is the time and there are people who have no belief, no faith ...etc.
> These people need something to embrace. Even if it means a half way mix,- this would be better than nothing.
> ...


 
I am personally against any mixture that is harmful for the identity of both mixing philosophies.I am telling only understanding each without compromise of identity.Is there no way to go like this?
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Mar 6, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMARJIT SINGh BAMRAH Ji,
> From your post I feel you have misconstrued the message from GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Ji.
> He is also telling the same thing what you are presenting in an elaborated way.He is talking THE GURMATi way which is obviously Meditation and Simran.
> Now the question we all talk about meditation but no one tells what to meditate as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and what is Gurmati way of Meditation.?
> ...


 

I am sorry If I have misconstrued giayani ji
I did not mean to.

Meditation to me is to breathe into our chakras
We have 7 main chakras this allows us to increase our spiritual wattage to harness the Holy spirit and the Shakti of the Divine.

At the same time we also practise Kechari Mudra which allows the Manosovar Lake within us to activate. This allows the Amrit to start flowing within our body and into all our Nadis

amarjit


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

amarjit singh bamrah said:


> I am sorry If I have misconstrued giayani ji
> I did not mean to.
> 
> Meditation to me is to breathe into our chakras
> ...


 
Is this stated so in SGGS ji? pl give me quotes to validate your stated point of view in respect of meditation.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## amarjit singh bamrah (Mar 6, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Is this stated so in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? pl give me quotes to validate your stated point of view in respect of meditation.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


 


*English Translation: Extract from The Sikh Guru Granth Sahib*

_RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: It is beyond the three qualities; it remains untouched. _
_The seekers and Siddhas do not know it. There is a chamber filled with jewels, _
_overflowing with Ambrosial Nectar, in the Guru’s Treasury. _
_|| 1 || This thing is wonderful and amazing! It cannot be described. I_
_t is an unfathomable object, O Siblings of Destiny! || 1 || _
_Its value cannot be estimated at all; what can anyone say about it? _
_By speaking and describing it, it cannot be understood; only one who sees it realizes it. _
_|| 2 || Only the Creator Lord knows it; what can any poor creature do? _
_Only He Himself knows His own state and extent. The Lord Himself is the treasure overflowing._
_ || 3 || Tasting such Ambrosial Nectar, the mind remains satisfied and satiated._
_ Says Nanak, my hopes are fulfilled; I have found the Guru’s Sanctuary. || 4 || 4 ||_
=


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 6, 2012)

amarjit singh bamrah said:


> *English Translation: Extract from The Sikh Guru Granth Sahib*
> 
> _RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: It is beyond the three qualities; it remains untouched. _
> _The seekers and Siddhas do not know it. There is a chamber filled with jewels, _
> ...


 
Pl look at the following sabad 
<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਪਾਠੁ ਪੜਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਓ ਨਿਵਲਿ ਭੁਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥ 

पाठु पड़िओ अरु बेदु बीचारिओ निवलि भुअंगम साधे ॥ 

Pāṯẖ paṛi▫o ar beḏ bīcẖāri▫o nival bẖu▫angam sāḏẖe. 

They read scriptures, and contemplate the Vedas; they practice the inner cleansing techniques of Yoga, and control of the breath. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਛੁਟਕਿਓ ਅਧਿਕ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਾਧੇ ॥੧॥ 

पंच जना सिउ संगु न छुटकिओ अधिक अह्मबुधि बाधे ॥१॥ 

Pancẖ janā si▫o sang na cẖẖutki▫o aḏẖik ahaŉ▫buḏẖ bāḏẖe. ||1|| 

But they cannot escape from the company of the five passions; they are increasingly bound to egotism. ||1|| 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ॥ 

पिआरे इन बिधि मिलणु न जाई मै कीए करम अनेका ॥ 

Pi▫āre in biḏẖ milaṇ na jā▫ī mai kī▫e karam anekā. 

O Beloved, this is not the way to meet the Lord; I have performed these rituals so many times. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

हारि परिओ सुआमी कै दुआरै दीजै बुधि बिबेका ॥ रहाउ ॥ 

Hār pari▫o su▫āmī kai ḏu▫ārai ḏījai buḏẖ bibekā. Rahā▫o. 


This sabad is in Raagu SORATH at pp641

If you look at the complete sabad you can have better views about the methods we are asked to adopt.
Prakash.s.baaga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## sanj007 (Mar 6, 2012)

1) As regards Hinduism, there is no caste system as per scriptures:
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/


> The concept of caste is relatively new. Vedas contain no word that can be considered a synonym for ‘caste’. The two words commonly considered to mean ‘caste’ are Jaati and Varna. However the truth is that, all the three mean completely different things.
> *Caste is a European innovation having no semblance in Vedic culture.*


 
now for scriptural facts:


> _Yajurved 26.2:_
> The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, *Shudras*, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden. The scholars and the wealthy people should ensure that they not deviate from this message of mine.
> _Atharvaved 19.32.8:_
> O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, *Shudra* or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.


 
Lord Krishna says, that God resides in hearts of all beings, ie acceptanace of all beings.
Moksha is end game for hindu faith, ie merging with God, but this can only happen if a person leads a noble life, now basic question how can there be discriminatory caste of society and how can one gain Moksha, the two dont reconcile, but this question does not get asked.
 Social evil of caste is not in the scriptures and thats just a basic fact!


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 6, 2012)

Dogra veer one comment on the following from your post,



> dogra said:
> 
> 
> > _The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for *benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden*._
> ...


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 7, 2012)

Caste arises on its own in any given society. We can see parallels between the medieval Indian caste system (and other caste systems) and our society today.

Brahmins are akin to the western scientists, theologians and philosophers. Do you really think they have power and are running society their way? No. (Many of my professors would complain in class about how the laws are not in synch with scientific knowledge and what we know about human beings and their behaviour.) The large wealthy corporations who control the scientists by funding their research have power. The businessmen who run these corporations have power. The scientists, theologians and philosophers, who possess knowledge and wisdom, should be guiding us (Who would you want to guide you? One who genuinely seeks the truth or one who genuinely seeks wealth?) rather than advertisements and other media, news, internet.  But they actually possess very little power compared to the businessmen.

The Vaishya, business class, has risen to the top with the introduction of capitalism. They are the ones who control the ruling Kshtriya class, the politicians, and through them and through their funded media, they control us.

I don't think Brahmins were at the top in India (today they are in worse condition). The caste system ideally wanted them at the top, yes, (and for good reasons) but in reality, in terms of wealth, property-wise, no. It was the ruling Kshatriya class at the top, but they also had more responsibilities and obligations.

Brahmins in India have become a minority      - YouTube


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 7, 2012)

There seems to be misconception that caste system has been rejected in SGGS.
The message of Gurbanne is common to all four caste System prevailing at that time.
When a Sikh becomes khalsaa The caste is Automatically vanished.So it is the Khalsaa concept of Sikhisim which can abolish the caste System .Otherwise the system is going to stay as such.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 7, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Caste arises on its own in any given society. We can see parallels between the medieval Indian caste system (and other caste systems) and our society today.
> 
> Brahmins are akin to the western scientists, theologians and philosophers. Do you really think they have power and are running society their way? No. (Many of my professors would complain in class about how the laws are not in synch with scientific knowledge and what we know about human beings and their behaviour.) The large wealthy corporations who control the scientists by funding their research have power. The businessmen who run these corporations have power. The scientists, theologians and philosophers, who possess knowledge and wisdom, should be guiding us (Who would you want to guide you? One who genuinely seeks the truth or one who genuinely seeks wealth?) rather than advertisements and other media, news, internet. But they actually possess very little power compared to the businessmen.
> 
> ...


 
The concept of any community being considered as Major or Minor is latest only.
The Brahmins always expected to be treated as no-1 by other caste people by virtue of the exclusive possesor of THE DIVINE knowledge.
But with pssage of time and complete change in the pattern of living and thinking they could not maintain thei reputation of being considered as eexclusive caste.This resuls in thei being considered as Minor now.
So nothing is forever and nothing should be taken for guaranted .a lesson for every community  lies in this .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 7, 2012)

Prakash.S.Bagga ji couple of comments.



> There seems to be _misconception that caste system has been rejected in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji_.
> The message of Gurbanne is common to all four caste System prevailing at that time.


_Sorry Prakash.S.Bagg ji you are wrong above._

_Caste system is directly rejected in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by stating equality of all. Nothing more is needed to reject beyond this. Guru Gobind Singh ji simply manifested and embedded it explicitly in the foundation of Khalsa_



> The Brahmins always expected to be treated as no-1 by other caste people by virtue of the exclusive possessor of THE DIVINE knowledge.
> But with passage of time and complete change in the pattern of living and thinking they could not maintain their reputation of being considered as exclusive caste. _This results in these being considered as Minor now_.


_Prakash.S.Bagga ji wrong again._

_Hinduism of 800+ million people is run by Brahmins and their surrogates as in Swami/Maharishi/Guru/Maharaj/etc. this or that. They are the string pullers behind major Hindu initiatives against minorities and other religions destruction, including attacks on Sikhism._


_Simply the modus-operandii has changed more towards covert versus overt, to align with the times._


Sat Sri Akal.


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## sanj007 (Mar 7, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Dogra veer one comment on the following from your post,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sanj007 (Mar 7, 2012)

Now let us see changes of function sto families born in :
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/


> Many examples exist of change of Varnas in Vedic history.
> a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.
> b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
> c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.
> ...


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## sanj007 (Mar 7, 2012)

Hinduism or real name Sanatan Dharma, teaches to practice humanity, and verses back up this fundamental fact. Scriptures are clear, just because corruption by a number of priests to maintain their children in better paid positions, does not mean they are following scriptures.
Let us see some more verses that convey the clear truth and reconciling to main messages of God residing in hearts of all beings(what does this mean ) 


> _Atharvaved 19.32.8:
> _O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, *Shudra* or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.
> _Atharvaved 19.62.1:
> _May all noble people admire me. May kings and Kshatriyas admire me. May all look at me with admiration. May the *Shudras* and Vaishyas admire me.
> ...


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## sanj007 (Mar 7, 2012)

Think a number of non hindus who think they know Hinduism ,clearly do not, mind u some Hindus by name, also do not know the truth in scriptures of Sanatan Dharma, it is a case of having to unlearn corruption and see the truth of the verses

In summary any person can be of any function, they gain through their training and/or study, regardless of birth. Equality of all beings enshrined within scriptures, and thats a fact!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 7, 2012)

dogra said:


> Think a number of non hindus who think they know Hinduism ,clearly do not, mind u some Hindus by name, also do not know the truth in scriptures of Sanatan Dharma, it is a case of having to unlearn corruption and see the truth of the verses
> 
> In summary any person can be of any function, they gain through their training and/or study, regardless of birth. Equality of all beings enshrined within scriptures, and thats a fact!


 
To extract what is right from Vedas has always been an uphill task for common persons.Moreover the language and interpretations did requre
the knowledge of Sanskrit  language. Due to this barrier the common people were always kept away from knowing the right or wrong of Vedas.
And Brahmins maintained their supremacy over others for a long.

When the real Truth was presented with the advent of NANAK preachings it were these people only who opposed the most and still do not hesitate in manipulating with Sikh philosophy.They have already succeeded in the intrusion which is yet to be recognised by Sikhs.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## sanj007 (Mar 7, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> To extract what is right from Vedas has always been an uphill task for common persons.Moreover the language and interpretations did requre
> the knowledge of Sanskrit language. Due to this barrier the common people were always kept away from knowing the right or wrong of Vedas.
> And Brahmins maintained their supremacy over others for a long.
> 
> ...


 
There have been saints who have tried to direct the truth of the humanity in Vedas e.g. Ramunuja, Ramanand.
Yes a number of corrupt priests have tried to maintain their family wealth and have not maintained society for the better.
End of the day some of us in Hindu faith have had to unlearn and relearn truth of Vedas and other Holy Texts. With Internet, this is becoming more easier and many more people are moving in this direction of the uncorrupt truth, hence saying My caste= Human


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## Archived_member14 (Mar 7, 2012)

Dogra ji,




dogra said:


> Ambarsaria said:
> 
> 
> > Dogra veer one comment on the following from your post,
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 7, 2012)

Some food for thought.

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> Depiction of Brahmin in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
> 
> In Hinduism, there is the concept of Varna system where the society is stratified into four Varnas or castes - Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Sudras. The Brahmin occupies the highest level in the varna system and is considered to be the priest class in the Varna system of ancient India. In the Hindu Varna System, Brahmins are the priestly sections of the society. The rigid caste system in India had divided the society into four classes. Amongst these the Brahmins were at the top position. They are responsible for solemnising the religious rituals as they were considered the learned ones. Brahmins, the privileged class in the ancient Indian history, used to hold important positions in the royal court and used to receive handsome rewards for performing rituals and ceremonies.
> 
> ...



The following a sabad/Hymn from Sikhism SGGS,



> ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
> आसा महला १ ॥
> Āsā mėhlā 1.
> Aasaa, First Mehl:
> ...


Regards.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 7, 2012)

Some food for thought.

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> In Hinduism, there is the concept of Varna system where the society is stratified into four Varnas or castes - Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Sudras. The Brahmin occupies the highest level in the varna system and is considered to be the priest class in the Varna system of ancient India. In the Hindu Varna System, Brahmins are the priestly sections of the society. The rigid caste system in India had divided the society into four classes. Amongst these the Brahmins were at the top position. They are responsible for solemnising the religious rituals as they were considered the learned ones. Brahmins, the privileged class in the ancient Indian history, used to hold important positions in the royal court and used to receive handsome rewards for performing rituals and ceremonies.
> 
> This ancient Hindu caste system is divided on the basis of occupation. With the Vedic religion in ancient India the history of the Brahmin community actually begins. In chapter ten of the Rig Veda, Brahmins were created from the mouth of Purusha. The primary source of knowledge for all Brahmin tradition, both orthodox and heterodox lies in the Vedas. The name Brahman is derived from the root brih or vrih, meaning to increase. The origin of the Brahmins can be traced back to 6000 B.C. the earliest references are found in Vedas. Brahmins are known as Vedic People. Vedas depict them as a population originating in North India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Sages like Vishwamitra, Agastya, Brihaspati, Daksha, Kashyapa, Manu, Parasara, Vashishta, Vyasa and Yamaand and several others are mentioned in the mythological texts and Vedas. They imparted education and led a life of simplicity. The life of an Indian Brahmin is divided into four stages - Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha and Sannyasa.
> 
> (http://www.indianetzone.com/21/brahmins_indian_caste.htm)


The following a sabad/Hymn from Sikhism Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,



> Depiction of Brahmin in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
> 
> ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
> आसा महला १ ॥
> ...


Regards.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 7, 2012)

Confused ji,
We also pass on our genes. So the genes which make someone an excellent Brahmin are passed on to his offspring, increasing the likelyhood that he will be good at (and thus more likely to choose) the same profession. The qualities we posses like intelligence, love for learning, love for knowledge and truth, ability to maintain focus, etc actually have a biological basis. So the offspring is more likely to have the qualities a Brahmin has. They do often carry over from profession to profession. Strong leadership is good not only for Kshatriya, for example.  

Dogra ji,


> 5) Who said anything about top, there is no top nor bottom, just functions e.g. in an office there is big boss director, there is middle level, clerical workers and cleaner, now cleaner has lowest pay, but does that make them bottom in terms of spirituality, absolutely not, as there is dignity of labour


I agree in that sense. But a Guru is definitely higher than a student. Should we then place all the blame on Gurus for controlling society? No we don't do this. Gurus have earned that place because they have worked for it. They know what is good for a society so it is good for us that they guide us. Should we blame a good warrior for violence and bloodshed? No we don't do this because they have a role to play, that is to defend our territories so that we can live in a safe environment which gives us freedom to blame them in teh first place. Should we blame a scientist for appealing to scientific authority? The scientist is the one in the front lines doing experiments and expanding a particular field, working within a paradigm. You are not the one doing so. You do not understand his field of expertise, therefore you RELY on his authority to guide. He can only be challenged by other scientists in the field. If you want to challenge him you need to go into the field and gain a similar level of expertise. It is the same in any field. The experts of the field control it. Brahmins are no different.

I think Brahmins are unduly bashed in Sikh circles, and there is a unrealistic image of them, almost as if they (and Muslims) were the demons of Sikh mythology. This is a false image of both communities. Adi Shankaracharya ji bowed to a low caste, whom he realized to be enlightened. Guru Ramanand ji (whose student Bhagat Kabir ji's writings form a large portion of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as Kabir ji's writings were available) was a Brahmin, he allowed members of all castes and outcastes to benefit from his teachings (Bhagat Ravidas and Bhagat Dhana were two of his students). An example of such a Brahmin (economist and political scientist) is also present as the guide of King Chandra Gupta Maurya, who helped Maurya build the Mauryan empire. Kirpa Ram Dutt was Guru Gobind Singh ji's Sanskrit teacher.

Prakash ji,
You are right, it was in the Khalsa that there was no class. But you have to admit, Khalsa is itself technically the warrior class. Guru Gobind Singh ji ordered all Khalsa to carry a kurd, dagger (along with wearing kachera and kes), to learn shastar vidya, to learn to defend themselves and their territories and families and to wreck havoc on their enemies. He made accessible to them the warrior epics of Indian tradition, the exploits of Chandi in battle. He told them to hunt. He gave all Khalsa the same last name of Singh, the common ruling, warrior class last name. All of which was done to instill within them a warrior spirit. 

The Khalsa reminds me of the 300 men in Leonidas's army. 
Spartans, What is your Profession?      - YouTube
"Khalsa! what is your profession?"
"Akal! Akal! Akal!"

Khalsa did not consider themselves to be potters, sculptors and blacksmiths but warriors serving under the guidance of their Guru.


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## Archived_member14 (Mar 8, 2012)

Bhagat ji,


I read you express this view before in other messages and wanted to respond to it but couldn't. But I will do it now.




BhagatSingh said:


> Confused ji,
> We also pass on our genes. So the genes which make someone an excellent Brahmin are passed on to his offspring, increasing the likelyhood that he will be good at (and thus more likely to choose) the same profession. The qualities we posses like intelligence, love for learning, love for knowledge and truth, ability to maintain focus, etc actually have a biological basis. So the offspring is more likely to have the qualities a Brahmin has. They do often carry over from profession to profession. Strong leadership is good not only for Kshatriya, for example.




I am quite sure that you will not find a correspondence between this and any of the ancient religions, including Sikh. And it is not because there was no knowledge about genes then, but rather that the view you express is a materialistic one. Science which reduces mental phenomena as being byproduct of material phenomena will read into all its discoveries the materialistic view. The ancients however knew mental phenomena to be completely different from physical phenomena.    

As I suggested in a message to Ambarsaria ji, genes being ultimately material phenomena, what is passed on from one generation to the next are only physical attributes. Mental phenomena on the other hand rise and fall away and condition the next one to arise on and on. All tendencies reside in the one instance of consciousness which passes on everything to the succeeding consciousness by way of several conditions, most notably contiguity condition. 

Physically, I am almost a carbon copy of my father. But mentally, apart from being hot tempered and great attachment to taste, I see few similarities. Yes, there is this that when we think in terms of basic tendencies such as attachment to sense objects, anger, lust, pride, kindness, giving, morality and so on, we *all* have these to a lesser or greater degree. It is therefore easy to jump to conclusions when observing any two persons who happen to react more or less similarly to particular situations that their habits are the same, but this can be misleading. Indeed it is our habit to generalize and jump to conclusions, but this is because we do not in fact at the time, understand reality. 

But of course there is also the fact that the Karma which conditions rebirth, just as this determines the kind of being one is born as, when a human being, also determines the kind of family one is born into. Just like now, we tend to associate with like-minded people; members of one family may have certain inclinations similar to each other. Also that particular karma marshals other karmas to bear fruit in what might then be seen as a 'pattern'. So if different members of a family receive more or less the same set of experiences, it is not surprising that the son for example, has developed over time, conditioned responses similarly to the father.

And imagine this. If the son becomes enlightened but the father doesn't, the habits of the son must clearly have changed completely. Would this mean that his genes must also have changed? No, because genes don't change…..

But really, gene is a concept and is never the object of wisdom, which is why it would never be the concern of the wise of old.  More importantly though, they knew that particular material realities (from which the concept 'gene' is derived) may act as “base” or place of birth for the arising of mental realities, for example, the eye-base is birthplace for seeing consciousness and  ear-base for hearing, and they know that some of them are “caused by” mentality, such as speech and bodily intimation. *But materiality can never be the “cause” for mentality*. To think that it does must be due to the influence of a materialistic view which is one kind of wrong view. Indeed this view understands neither mental nor physical phenomena since to understand one requires understanding the other as well. So really, science is completely ignorant when it comes to reality / Truth.

Why would someone interested in religion be moved by the findings of science in such matters? Religion encourages the increase in good and reduction of evil and these clearly points to a mechanism within the mental phenomena not related to any material phenomena. Wisdom is developed by repeated arising. Good vs. evil, one increase in frequency over the other is by virtue of whether there is more wisdom or there is more ignorance. 

When a religion encourages us to do good and avoid evil, what does this imply? Is it not that one must see the value of good and the harm of evil and that in this very seeing is the right course of action taken? Wherefore the necessity to refer to materiality and gene or even brain? If materiality was the cause for mentality then science could very well come out one day with an enlightenment pill. But enlightened people of the past *did not* have any pill nor it mattered which caste he or she was born into. This is because the development of wisdom follows a path which requires recognition of the obstructions such as ignorance, craving, wrong understanding and so on. Can a pill eradicate any of these tendencies, ones that have been accumulated from aeons in the past? 

Besides if we are to except Karma and the fact of rebirth, what of the fact that in the last life we were a {censored}roach and now a human being and these two have very different genes?

Very misleading I'd say this idea that genes influence our inclinations and habits. Besides this actually leans toward a deterministic view which science itself at other times object to. :-/


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 8, 2012)

Confused said:


> Besides if we are to except Karma and the fact of rebirth, what of the fact that in the last life we were a {censored}roach and now a human being and these two have very different genes?


_Confused ji thanks for your post._

_I hope you realize tha Genetics has killed re-incarnation. A la_ _"..  __last life we were a {censored}roach and now a human being". This don't happen bro :sippingcoffeemunda:._

I am running low on energy but will pick up and comment on other posts in the future. I virtually read all your posts end-to-end but timing varies. Always enjoy whether agree, disagree or get beaten by you lol

Metta.


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## Archived_member14 (Mar 9, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,




Ambarsaria said:


> _Confused ji thanks for your post._
> 
> _I hope you realize tha Genetics has killed re-incarnation. A la_ _"..  __last life we were a {censored}roach and now a human being". This don't happen bro :sippingcoffeemunda:._
> 
> ...





And I thought that I just killed genetics, the part it professes to make a statement about habitual tendencies.

But I'll wait for your response to say more.


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## sanj007 (Mar 9, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Confused ji,
> 
> Adi Shankaracharya ji bowed to a low caste, whom he realized to be enlightened. Guru Ramanand ji (whose student Bhagat Kabir ji's writings form a large portion of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as Kabir ji's writings were available) was a Brahmin, he allowed members of all castes and outcastes to benefit from his teachings (Bhagat Ravidas and Bhagat Dhana were two of his students). An example of such a Brahmin (economist and political scientist) is also present as the guide of King Chandra Gupta Maurya, who helped Maurya build the Mauryan empire. Kirpa Ram Dutt was Guru Gobind Singh ji's Sanskrit teacher.
> 
> .


 
Indeed, but again there is no higher nor lower caste, in fact there is no caste in Sanatan Dharma. Varna system is that whereby any individual can attain any function by their practice and study, completere freedom of choice regardless of any Birth.
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/


> *Varna’ means one that is adopted by choice. *Thus, while Jaati is provided by God, ‘Varna’ is our own choice.
> Those who choose to be Arya are called ‘Arya Varna’. Those who choose to be Dasyu become ‘Dasyu Varna’. Same for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra.
> That is why Vedic Dharma is called ‘Varnashram Dharma’. The word Varna itself implies that this is based on complete freedom of choice and meritocracy.


Due to Internet verses are reducating many more people, and we are questioning more, and trying to reconcile main points.
Point of Guru being higher is in terms of Knowledge, but in terms of essence of human being, treat Cleaner and Guru on equal terms, e.g. accept themto Dinner table, share food together, accept any of their offspring, if suitable in character terms, for marriage for relatives.....


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## Harry Haller (Mar 28, 2012)

Confusedji

some comments



> You feel horny and about to wake your wife up, but suddenly think that she needs a rest, so you don't wake her up.
> 
> Do all these not clearly point to mental actions?
> When you steal or kill, these are bodily actions, but are they not conditioned by the mind? What you refer to as discipline, is this not about will, determination and restraint all mental phenomena? Body is body, it is a physical phenomenon and physical phenomenon, unlike mental phenomenon, does not know anything.



I have to concede this



> So you still think Hesse had something substantial to say and understood what enlightenment means…..



In all honesty, I have a huge affinity for Hesse, I think we are both as misguided and lost as each other




> But frankly I don't understand your response, what point are you making? Besides what I said with reference to the past is not that there is no learning *in* the past, but rather that there is no learning *from thinking about* the past.



I think about the past a lot, and not always in a learning capacity, I am ashamed to say that if I am honest, I yearn for the past, and not to change things either, but to do it all again, but I guess that is selective memory, I remember the good times, the pleasure, not the fear, not the pain. 



> And in case you doubt this, allow me draw your attention to the fact of wise people of all traditions, including I believe Sikhism as well, pointing out the uselessness of thinking about the past and future and the importance being in the present. Indeed given that we think almost all the time with attachment, aversion and ignorance, in this particular case of seeking to learn from the past there must also be wrong understanding involved. And this more than anything else, takes one further away from the possibility of understanding the reality of what is “now”.



Again, if I am posting honestly, and I am in a particular honest mood, I spend a lot of the time either in the past or planning the future, the now seems to be something I just have to suffer



> You are attached to the story of your life as we all are to ours. What is recalled, how different scenes are arranged and what value is given to each and the overall story is dictated by the ignorance and attachment now. Would you want this to continue on or would you rather develop more understanding of thinking and what motivates the thinking?



Although I was happy that I had felt I had conquered my demons, you are suggesting that all I have done is develop an aversion to them, and I still do not understand why. I think you could be correct



> There can be no real learning when ignorance and attachment is at the root. And it is clear that when such thinking goes on, conceit or ego is being encouraged as well. Knowing this, I'm sure you'd not want this to continue, would you?



There are some days when it flows, when everything makes sense, days like the day I posted this reply, today I struggle to see the point of view I was making, possibly because I am agitated, I am not sure, however, today I feel like I have learned nothing, I have simply been burnt, I have a childish response to it, not a response of true understanding, so, no, I do not wish this to continue, however I run the risk of losing those days when it does flow, when it does make sense, for understanding 100% of the time, it is a risk and one I have to think carefully about taking



> If there is no wisdom, can anything of value be seen for what it is?



certainly food for thought




> You can go on with your life as it is without the need to judge any of it as 'progress'. Indeed if you think this way with attachment, this is a step backwards is it not? You should take care not to judge any reduction in sense-indulgence as 'moderation' as this in fact is an aspect of wisdom. If what you do is diversion and / or suppression of some kind, you'd need to know it for what it is and not think that you've made progress in terms of morality and wisdom. And why would someone who seeks to understand, look for peace? So again you should not judge the value of what you do in terms of how much peace you now experience.



This is something to contemplate on tonight, I thank you again for your time and energies


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## Babajis Servant (Mar 29, 2012)

SSA,

Just I want to add one of the Hindu point of view on the above article.

I have gone through all the post on this article, what I noticed here that few Sikhs see hindu religion as untouchable and a total myth, even tough they again and again say they respect Hindu religion. What type of respect is this? 
I have a deep faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and all Ten Gurus and his beloved ones, and for this I dont need any Sikh certificate to prove my love and respect to Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and all Ten Gurus and his beloved ones.

My mind and soul is in Babjis feet, I know he will show me what a true Sikhi is.

U Sikh behave just like Brahmins, how Hindu Gods are just property of Brahmins, Same way Sikh want to keep Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and all Ten Gurus only to them.

But they belongs to all who love them, Baba Nanak has eaten food from Low cast Bhai Lalo (might be he was a Low cast hindu), same way Lord Ram has eaten, half eaten barries from Low cast Sabri.

My knowledge on Sri Guru Granth Sahibji in nothing I can not even touch him, but just a meer glance on him gives me peace in my heart.

I know you all are big scholars on Sri Guru Granth Sahibji, but still I fee "Ja ke rahe bhavna Jaise, Hair Murat Dikhe tin tahe taise" (means Gods will look same as how u want to see him), so if some one says Sri Guru Granth Sahibji says all Hindus texts and books are myths, Its just that individual feeling want he want to take it out of Babaji and its not actually Sri Guru Granth Sahibji word.

Gurfateh


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 29, 2012)

Babajis Servant ji thanks for your post.  Very well written post.  I have one comment,





Babajis Servant said:


> I know you all are big scholars on Sri Guru Granth Sahibji, but still I fee "_Ja ke rahe bhavna Jaise, Hair Murat Dikhe tin tahe taise_" (means Gods will look same as how u want to see him), so if some one says Sri Guru Granth Sahibji says all Hindus texts and books are myths, Its just that individual feeling want he want to take it out of Babaji and its not actually Sri Guru Granth Sahibji word.  Gurfateh


_Your comment about seeing what you want to see is generally quite applicable_.  _In respect to Guru ji's we need to note though that they were trying to encourage different and beyond Hinduism beliefs.  Their end objective to me was that to enlighten people and encourage them to openly and truthfully see what is the creator.  They made tremendous use of existing beliefs as those were their audience__.  They did encourage people to unshackle from blind believing and I believe that is fundamental._

_Beyond the above everyone is unique and special in creation and so it should be recognized.

Regards.  mundahug
_


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