# Rituals, Symbols And Spiritual Cleansing



## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 4, 2009)

Respected PK70 Ji,

Thank you very much for the Sabd. Please review my article posted on that very topic of Rituals.

It is time to close this topic.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 4, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

This morning at the Gurdwara after Asa Dee Vaar, in a discussion about SPN..a Gurbani studnet of mine came up with an observation.

All the TUKS..the Shabads that appear in the Gurbani of the SGGS..regarding Rituals/outside clothing/marks etc NOT related to INNER SPIRITUALITY etc are Mainly aimed at the BRAHMINS/PANDITS/DHARAM DE THEKEDAARS.
Its the Brahmin/Pandit that wore the Tilak/the Double Dhotee, etc etc ONLY while leading the PRAYERS..for the FAITHFUL.

Guru Ji also met the MUSLIMS...and since their Kazis/mullahs DONT wear certain clothing ONLY for PRAYING/Give an appearance of being Holy....Gurbani condones their Namaaz..their Musalla..Prayer Mat etc etc and Gives an INSIGHT into what the Five namaazs..the prayer mat etc shoudl be..as GIven for the JANEAU ( which is worn by ALL HINDUS and is NOT specially worn for PRAYERS ONLY )
Guru Ji doesnt SAY..a namaaz is USELESS..DONT DO IT....but that HOW it should be !!!

2. Guur Ji saw the AArtee being performed in the Mandirs....and didnt say thats WRONG..Dont do it...BUT wrote a shabad giving his insight into the "Right" aartee. Now the same would apply to a group of Ragis performing the same thaal thingy in front of the SGGS..they are NOT doing the RIGHT aartee

2. The 5 Kakaars are NOT worn just when PRAYING. They are NOT worn just by the LEADERS..the Gyanis/jathedars..But by ALL..even the commonest Labourer. They are for LIFE..for ALL...soemthing that doesnt apply to the dhotees, the tilaks and the janeaus mentioned. Therefore its wrong to compare the two and quote Gurbani tuks to support Doing away with the 5 Kakars and Khandeh Batte dee pahul as not necesary for spiritual growth.

Just some random thoughts which cropped up....and convinced a few more to sign up for Amrit Sanskaar this coming KHALSA DAY:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::welcome:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*

Dear Giani Ji,

IMHO if Guru Nanak would have been here he would have said the same thing to Sikhs as he  told the Muslim, Brahmin, Jain, Yogi etc to first develop truthful living, contentment, compassion, humility, and fortitude with subjugation of lower instincts of Lust, anger, greed, attachment, and vanity/Haoumai. 5 K's alone are not enough for spirituality. One has to earn it by working on the virtues, it does not come automatically otherwise it becomes simple you wear 5 K's and you are liberated or conquered SERENITY. I am not denegrating 5 K's but making a plea to go beyond them as some ignorant will think to be an end to the means.

Thanks for your constructive thoughts.

Regards.

Cordially,


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## pk70 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*



vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Giani Ji,
> 
> IMHO if Guru Nanak would have been here he would have said the same thing to Sikhs as he  told the Muslim, Brahmin, Jain, Yogi etc to first develop truthful living, contentment, compassion, humility, and fortitude with subjugation of lower instincts of Lust, anger, greed, attachment, and vanity/Haoumai. 5 K's alone are not enough for spirituality. One has to earn it by working on the virtues, it does not come automatically otherwise it becomes simple you wear 5 K's and you are liberated or conquered SERENITY. I am not denegrating 5 K's but making a plea to go beyond them as some ignorant will think to be an end to the means.
> 
> ...


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*

Dear PK70 Ji,

I will say the same thing with due apologies to every one that after having baptism, game is not over, individual has to develop virtues and subjugate lower instincts-we are not playing a game. Spirituality is a serios subject for me. We can agree to disagree on this.

I thought You all should agree with it.

Thanks.

Virinder


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*

Dear G Singh Ji,

I apologize if my English sentence is put in an incorrect way to Giani Ji, who might be spiritually wise and I do respect his wisdom but I am 15 years older than him (being a Dhillon-he is my Maternal Uncle in the usual Panjabi way). Please help me in restructuring my language in the right way. May be I do not have the proper English words, being just a retired Urologist and not an MA in English. It will make you happy and my apology will be in order as I am at fault.
Thanks for your help.

Regards.

Cordially,

Virinder

*PS; A fault which humbles a person is of more use than a good action, which puffs him/her up.*

ਗਰੀਬੀ ਗਦਾ ਹਮਾਰੀ॥ ਖੰਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਨ ਛਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕੋ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਵੇਕਾਰੀ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਏਹ ਗਲ ਸਾਰੀ॥ 

_Gareebee Gadda Hamaree, Khanna Sagal Rayn Chaari, Iss Aagai Ko Na Tikai Vaykaaree,Gur Pooray Ayh Gal Saaree._

Humility is my mace, and being the dust of the dust of all men’s feet is my two edged sword, which no evildoer can withstand. The matter has been arranged by the perfect Guru. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 628-13


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## pk70 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*



vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear G Singh Ji,
> 
> I apologize if my English sentence is put in an incorrect way to Giani Ji, who might be spiritually wise and I do respect his wisdom but I am 15 years older than him (being a Dhillon-he is my Maternal Uncle in the usual Panjabi way). Please help me in restructuring my language in the right way. May be I do not have the proper English words, being just a retired Urologist and not an MA in English. It will make you happy and my apology will be in order as I am at fault.
> Thanks for your help.
> ...



*Respected VSGREWAL Ji

If you have noticed from Gyani ji's posts, there is obviously hidden respect for you even when he has noticed a big difference in your application of Gurbani in different issues( I too feel the same way). Kindly keep in mind that there is no intention to disrespect you at all. We all are humans, we fall now and then but our efforts to over come our limitations keep us in progress.
If you have noticed in my post where I have put a question for you, I agreed with you for battling primal forces within. I mentioned that, kindly reread that. So that is not the issue. Question was " Did Guru Gobind Singh ji first make all people clean within before giving them Amrit Or he let all have who were willing to have?
Whole life passes in battling with primal forces, shouldnt amrit ceremony be taken and start the battle? What is wrong with that? If it is takeen when mind is ready, it is alright. If some think, they dont feel to have it, that is fine but to advocate against it by saying that more important is inner cleaning is not right way. Respected VSGrewal Ji, no one is saying that only after taking amrit one becomes spiritual.
Hope this time you will try to understand what actually Gyani ji and I are saying in context of five Kakars*.
*Regards
G Singh*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*

Dear respected G Singh Ji,

We both are on the same page and frequency-it is the English wording while describing it looks that way. My way of saying is if you take Amrit but not clean inside-IMHO you are disrespecting the Amrit (We read it in the media every day). You must first become worth it or become a candidate to be fit to take Amrit or you take Amrit then do not disrespect it by lying or what ever etc.

Those who are on the way of progressing in spirituality respect and slander is the same. Please read my next post on slander/disrespect-which may clarify it further.

Now we have reached the same conclusion, please let it go-it is the end from my side.

With my respects to you and Giani Ji.

Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder


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## pk70 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*



vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear respected G Singh Ji,
> 
> We both are on the same page and frequency-it is the English wording while describing it looks that way. My way of saying is if you take Amrit but not clean inside-IMHO you are disrespecting the Amrit (We read it in the media every day). You must first become worth it or become a candidate to be fit to take Amrit or you take Amrit then do not disrespect it by lying or what ever etc.
> 
> ...



*Respected vsgrewal Ji, thanks

regards
G Singh
*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: A Discussion of McLeod and the Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look*



vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear respected G Singh Ji,
> 
> My way of saying is *if you take Amrit but not clean inside*-IMHO you are disrespecting the Amrit (We read it in the media every day).


 
This still doesn't make sense. It's your opinion you may be satisfied with this conclusion. But what stick out to me is in the bold. A question to be asked is why do we read Gurbani. Its to clean the inside, right! So therefore when a person starts reading Gurbani initially they are not clean from the inside. Since they are not clean from the inside they are disrespecting the Gurbani by reading it as they are close to Gurbani and are not clean. So how does a person that is not clean from the inside progress on the spiritual path when he can't go near or by Gurbani because if he does then it would be disrespecting it.

As I see it a person takes amrit to cleanse the inside and recieve the blessing from Guru Sahib to progress in Sikhi. Also the person makes a commitment to Guru Sahib that I will try my hardest with your blessing to stay on this virtues path. As Amrit is pure and completely true a person should take Amrit when they start on the path of Sikhi, knowing the commitment he has just made.

I say once a person starts reading Gurbani, contemplating over Gurbani, and reads the Sikh History of all the great saints, taking amrit from the Panj Pyare becomes natural and it becomes a yearning from the heart to take amrit in that instance.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 5, 2009)

Guru Piayare Grewal Ji,
Gurfateh.

You wrote:
>>>>
 					Originally Posted by *vsgrewal48895* 

 
_Dear respected G Singh Ji,

My way of saying is *if you take Amrit but not clean inside*-IMHO you are disrespecting the Amrit (We read it in the media every day).<<<<<<<<<<<

Imho..we see and the Media highlights....the Amrtidharees. 

What we dont see,,and nobody highlights...are the very same behaviour/actions (presumably )..done by the CLEAN SHAVEN..non-Amritdharees..because they can blend in..with and be termed..South-Asians..Ethnic-Indians..Iranians..Arabs..Latinos...whatever..and NOT highlighted as the Obvious Kakaar wearing dastardharee Khalsa woudl be easy to Identify...see...highlight.

The Khalsa Tradition/oral history as well as written history is witness to the fact that such "virtaul disappearance"....blending in....etc of the Large SIKH populace in DELHI in Chandni Chowk at the Martyrdom of Guru teg Bahadur Ji..was one of the reasons why Guru Gobind Singh Ji vowed to make his Khalsa so DISTINCTIVE that one wouldl stand out in a MILLION. That a KHALSA would never be able to HIDE..even if he wanted to....  After 9/11 several KHALSA have become the victims of Hate Crimes simply DUE to their DASTAARS....and not a single "non Dastaree sikh" has been so targetted...simply because they are "invisible".  SIKHS were INVISIBLE from 1469 to Guru Teg bahdur Jis Beheading in public...and they remained INVISIBLE..until Guru Gobind Singh ji decided ...no more...My KHALSA will never again be INVISIBLE. MY KHALSA will stand out and be a SAWA LAKH.

2. There was no PRE CONDITION to Chhak Khandeh batte dee Pahul in 1699. ALL who wanted were taken in and accepted.

Thank you for a well conducted debate of sorts. We all have our own convictions, standards, spirituality goals etc and I totally respect each and everyone here on SPN as "equals". No one has the right to judge, pass judgements, cast aspersions, be rude, or otherwise make this Forum unpleasant....or leave  bad taste in the mouth for anyone. I deeply appreciate your contribution and respect and the fact that you are indeed older than me still you accord me the respect for a Mamma ji. Imho I try and hold the same feelings for each and every poster as well as those i know personally. may Guru Ji Bless us all with His Kirpa and Grace..to become better Sikhs.
_


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 5, 2009)

Gyani ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

_



Sikhs were INVISIBLE from 1469 to Guru Teg bahdur Jis Beheading in public...and they remained INVISIBLE..until Guru Gobind Singh ji decided ...no more...My KHALSA will never again be INVISIBLE. MY KHALSA will stand out and be a SAWA LAKH.


Click to expand...

_ 
Could you kindly elaborate the above a bit more?

You mean only our Gurus kept long hair,beards and dastaars and were visible not their followers?

Didn't People keep kesh during our Gurus' time?

All Sikhs- students  learn by examples from their Gurus. As the Gurus kept the hair then why would not the students do?

Can you please shed some historical light on the questions?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Gyani ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



Guru Piayare Tejwant Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

From what I have read one of the very first conditions Guru nanak ji placed before Bhai mardana Ji was..stop cutting your hair..stop smoking. And the Janmsakhis report that Bhai mardana Ji never cut his hair and enver smoked again all his life long.

Imho all the GURUS had uncut hair and long beards...Janamsakhis report at least two instances of the Gurus using their Long Beards to wipe the feet of....those who came to "upstage" them...one of them was Baba sri Chand..whose feet were wiped by Guru Ramdass Ji using his beard..and Baba ji remarked...This  Humility is one of the reaons WHY you all got the Gurgadhee and I didnt.

Thus I would assume that most followers of the GURUS would be having uncut hair and beards....only those not yet fully convinced/shardhaloos or those still following their old customs would still be not fully compliant. The SIKH DHARMA was in its "SEHAJDHAREE STATE"..from 1469 - 1699...imho the Sikh Forces under Guru Har Gobind Ji would be unlikely to be similarly dressed in the same uniform as was common for the KHALSA after 1699. Similarly until the time of Banda Singh, the SIKHS were NOT PERSECUTED as a GROUP...not targetted for TOTAL ELIMINATION...ethnic cleansing/GENOCIDE...so everyone kept an easy going style...until Vasakhi 1699.
2. It is obviuos Guru Gobind Singh ji had CHANGES in mind...IF everyone was already "KHALSA COMPLIANT"..whats to change ?? WHY ASK for 5 HEADS..IF everyone was already giving his head ??  WHY bring the Panj Forward in Totally NEW DRESS ?? IF everyone was already wearing those Bannas ?? Thats itself proof that CHANGES were sought and Made..and change is only made if things are not all A-OK.

It is a historical fact that on the day of Guru teg bahadur Jis Martyrdom..NOT one SIKH dared come forward. His Body and sees were carried off in subterfuge to Anandpur Sahib/and the place of cremation in Delhi hidden in  a caravan of cotton and burnt secretly. After the Time of BANDA SINGH..Khalsas were PUBLICLY arrested..tortured..and gladly accepted DEATH. No Khalsa wanted to be Dastarless/invisible...even to save his life...everyone activley sought death rather than convert.

as Late as the 1984 and DECADE after that..ONLY Banna wearing Fully AMRITDHAREE KHALSA were hunted by the Indian Authorities for torture and death in police custody.
This is the real reason behind the wave of dastaar removals in Punjab..a dastaar invited trouble...and many in the West now go dastarless just to escape racist violence - post 9/11..because being with dastaar is like carrying a red flag...similar to Bnada singh time in Punjab.

Cheers...


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