# Sikh - About Cutting Hair



## Myself (Jun 5, 2015)

Hello ji, i really need help, i'm 21 years old. I grow my hair for now. I do use turban to cover my head. But, i got a problem. I really interested to go to Atlantic Voyagers School that leads to work in international hotel and cruise ship. but, in order to attend that school, i have to cut my hair and shave my beard. Is it ok for me to cut my hair and shave my beard?. anyway, i still have my true sikhism in my heart. and i will do read gurbani everyday..


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 5, 2015)

Myself said:


> Hello ji, i really need help, i'm 21 years old. I grow my hair for now.



for now..



Myself said:


> I do use turban to cover my head. But, i got a problem. I really interested to go to Atlantic Voyagers School that leads to work in international hotel and cruise ship. but, in order to attend that school, i have to cut my hair and shave my beard. Is it ok for me to cut my hair and shave my beard?. anyway, i still have my true sikhism in my heart. and i will do read gurbani everyday..



is it ok? only you know that, Sikhism is not a religion of being told what to do, it is a religion of love. If you have to ask, I guess you know the answer.

We are not children, and Ek Ong Kar is not our daddy, you cannot please the Creator with lip service, ask yourself what your Sikhism means to you, if you do not know enough about it, then find out,

I could not find any reference to the Atlantic Voyagers School anywhere, maybe you just want to cut your hair and are looking for reasons and justification.

Find out more about Sikhism and its true nature before you make any rash decisions.

mine opinion only.


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 5, 2015)

Originalji wrote 

Sir,

Universal Declaration of Human Rights [UDHR] was founded to give humans of all nations some basic "rights" , amongst which is the right to practice one's religious belief. It is unlawful for AVS to discriminate against you for holding a particular religious belief [speaking from UK/International Law perspective].

*Article 18 of UDHR:*

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
Discrimination of the type you're describing occurs when an organisation has practices, policies or procedures which, although they are applied to everyone, have the effect of disadvantaging people of a particular religion [Sikh]. However, since this is a qualifying right within the meaning of the Act, local legislation has been delegated to make amendments when and where necessary in a democratic society. That is to say, indirect discrimination will not be unlawful if it can be justified. This means AVS must show that there is a legitimate aim (i.e. a real business need) and that the practice is proportionate to that aim (i.e. necessary and there is no alternative less discriminatory means available).

NOTE: Get legal advice before you touch Turban or beard.

Moving on to the real deal - Sikhism. We don't choose, Waheguru does. If it means cutting your hair and removing your turban, consider it His will for all is His doing. Important thing is to have faith in "Waheguru" - if today He takes it tomorrow He may replace it. Simran Seva is the key -

Good luck and be optimistic. Nanak's Sikhism embraces the whole of humanity with or without turbans. Yes, a distinct form of a human being was necessary for "khalsa" to become a state of pure consciousness. Many tread the path few succeed and that too by His grace.

God be with you....


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Moving on to the real deal - Sikhism. We don't choose, Waheguru does.



I find great comfort that approaching 50, fat, bald, broke, single and with no family, a dodgy ticker and spending 100 odd hours a week in a hamster cage of a shop, that this the life that I chose through my actions and decisions, the fact that I love being all of the above and find great pleasure in my life is irrelevant, when I look at my current existence, only a complete madman could have planned such a life. we all have to make decisions, we all have to deal with the consequences, your statement intimates a state not unlike fate...

How can I take responsibility, how can I change if I accept what you are saying?


----------



## Original (Jun 6, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I find great comfort that approaching 50, fat, bald, broke, single and with no family, a dodgy ticker and spending 100 odd hours a week in a hamster cage of a shop, that this the life that I chose through my actions and decisions, the fact that I love being all of the above and find great pleasure in my life is irrelevant, when I look at my current existence, only a complete madman could have planned such a life. we all have to make decisions, we all have to deal with the consequences, your statement intimates a state not unlike fate...
> 
> How can I take responsibility, how can I change if I accept what you are saying?



Dear Harry

The sugar cane at maturity gets hacked, stripped, cut, put through a chute to extract juice, boiled and finally boxed-off to be retailed. Cor' what a pain-stricken ordeal ? Why ? So it sweetens the tongues and apatites of the multitude, that's why the pain. Similarly H, you the sweetener with your sat [true] exposure on SPN helps and navigate many. Waheguru for the time being is taking that "seva" from you. Alone Waheguru know how instrumental you are in the lives of the many.

At my age now I do lot of work in rural Punjab with the disadvantaged members of the human family [scheduled caste] as a director of a charity. Be unknown to me I get people, students thanking me for paying their school fees, installing water pumps, etc etc and then for a moment I'm left amazed, "did I really do that ?". And, in short "no" ! Waheguru chose to take that seva from me - who am I, by my own initiative and intellect could pull-off something like that ? It is the will of my father Waheguru.

My dearest, complete surrender is required - but from me to you - you're an angel without wings.

Will speak soon !


----------



## Original (Jun 6, 2015)

harry haller said:


> How can I take responsibility, how can I change if I accept what you are saying?



It is all a question of belief - "for those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't, no proof is possible" [Stuart Chase].

You can see the positive side of even the worst tragedies if you adopt a holistic approach - walk down Nanak Avenue and see it for yourself. You approaching 50 signals a more complete fulfilment of the great and sacred mission which you have to perform in this world. The sole reason for you [human] being created is to allow the invisible Waheguru to manifest in the visible Harry, and that you use your intellect and intuition to discover the laws by which Waheguru, governs and permeates every fibre of His creation to  better the human condition and you thus a divine instrument through which He will work. Not only does God live within the human body, but it is within this body that He manifests Himself [meaning, you acquiring a human character much more stable than your present] and as a result you will seek means which will bring you to this pitch of perfection.

All the misfortunes you describe in your present life are a good sign for them having lived and now ready to dissolve to create new meaningful ones. Hence the maxim - the equilibrium within the universe. Dukh daaroo sukh rog bhaya [469 SGGSJ] - Baba Nanak in this excerpt defines grace as that which leads one [you] to the remembrance of and union with Waheguru. It is in this sense he calls sukh a dukh for it makes one forget Waheguru, on the other hand, dukh is a cure, for it is in adversity that we remember God.

Today you are suffering is because tomorrow you wont.

keep up the good work !

Brgds


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2015)

Original said:


> It is all a question of belief - "for those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't, no proof is possible" [Stuart Chase].



aha, you see that is my biggest problem, faith! I just have no faith in anything other than my own actions and agenda.



Original said:


> You can see the positive side of even the worst tragedies if you adopt a holistic approach - walk down Nanak Avenue and see it for yourself.



I am lucky that I have yet to suffer real tragedy, just enough for the next gag..



Original said:


> The sole reason for you [human] being created is to allow the invisible Waheguru to manifest in the visible Harry, and that you use your intellect and intuition to discover the laws by which Waheguru, governs and permeates every fibre of His creation to better the human condition and you thus a divine instrument through which He will work.



absolutely! no faith needed just keep discovering and keep trying to stay on the path.



Original said:


> meaning, you acquiring a human character much more stable than your present



it means that the person I am at present will in effect be dead...



Original said:


> pitch of perfection.


the very statement sends a shiver down my spine



Original said:


> All the misfortunes you describe



oh they are not misfortunes, merely life choices, which is my point. I have just left a wife and three dogs at home watching TV to come to the hamster cage, eat ice cream, some popcorn, play some music, do some work, because here is where I would rather be, ( we still live together), to be honest, as guilty as I feel about it, I live what I have always felt to be my perfect life, no one gives a hoot about what I look like or how I dress, merely my actions, bliss.....

And this brings me nicely to the point about dukh being important, it is all relative, I do not believe anything should suffer dukh to make them remember god, if anything I believe one should educate oneself not to be surprised by anything, and to always remember the innocence, we are all small children pretending to be adults, the only problem is, the adult that we always hoped we would be does not exist,

Tomorrow I will be better at the game, I will have learned something new, I will find something else to let go off that bothers me, something that used to annoy me, will amuse me, eventually, I will laugh at dukh, not use it as a crutch, I will laugh at it, mock it, for if you truly accept death as certain, and come to terms with your own demise, there really is not that much that can bring dukh to you.

having said that I am a bit nervous around enclosed spaces


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2015)

Original said:


> My dearest, complete surrender is required - but from me to you - you're an angel without wings.



complete surrender is always there my wise friend, however the world needs angels without wings, to remind all the other angels with wings how hard some people can make things!


----------



## Original (Jun 7, 2015)

Dear Harry

Allow me to say a little on you making choices, some of which were calculated and some perhaps, random. And, as a result, you holding yourself responsible for all that has transpired to date.

Given that we're all made of "atoms" and accept the general theory of relativity, then:

if atoms behave deterministically [clockwork], then we too must be fully determined, and
we must share the same fate as the rest of the universe.
When we look inside our brains, we find similar sort of mix, interconnected neurons, whose behaviour is governed by their underlying molecular structure, which in turn obeys the strict laws of quantum mechanics. If this be the case then how can we make free choices and be held responsible?

This is where Baba Nanak comes into the equation as a guide to help us understand the mechanistically arrangement of the universe [*gur ka shabd ko virla bhuja SGGSJ p120, meaning, one light few know].* And, it is to this intent and purpose Sikhism points clearly. Says Nanak, everything has an ultimate end or purpose towards which it will inevitably develop. Humans and their society have in deed an ultimate state of perfection to which they must naturally approximate and towards which they must necessarily strive and that "hakum" is an essential command for precipitating this end.

The importance of spiritual heights of human nature is as powerful as its instinctual depths. The focuses is on the specific human phenomena, that is, humankind's desire to find and fulfil a meaning in their life. Like you, sizeable population's "will" to meaning of life is frustrated on a worldwide scale. Ever more people are haunted by a feeling of meaninglessness which is often accompanied by a feeling of emptiness. Classic example of which was you last night, walking out and then having a sense of guilt as a result. This is indicative of a loss of interest in those around you. Apathy in my view, betrays a lack of the initiative to do something, to change something, in which case sudden or immediate exertion of the right effort with the right attitude is required.

It is a prerogative and privilege for you to quest for a meaning to your life and to question whether such a meaning exists after all, for no other creature known to humankind asks such a question. Meaning to life may be formed from suffering, guilt or whatever and that is the very reason why life remains potentially meaningful in spite of all the doom n gloom.

Besides; you're not alone, for among the affluent, fifth of humanity who have the good fortune to the fruits of global economy another form of poverty is on the rise, the poverty of the spirit.

Let us thank SPN for rounding us up to an amazing congregation where the *"shabd is guru"* and we the riders n runners benefit enormously. Moreover, the fact that we the usual suspects are regularly sniffing around SPN for the word is enough to suggest Guru is close and soon the coconut Harry will become a desi Hari.

Speak soon - and forgive for errors, omissions or distasteful content. Spoke to you from my heart as a younger brother.

Thank you !


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2015)

As the subject now at debate is whether we indeed have free will regarding matters like cutting our hair, I will proceed on that basis as this is a relevant point, 



Original said:


> Allow me to say a little on you making choices, some of which were calculated and some perhaps, random. And, as a result, you holding yourself responsible for all that has transpired to date.



I absolutely do. 



Original said:


> Given that we're all made of "atoms" and accept the general theory of relativity, then:
> 
> if atoms behave deterministically [clockwork], then we too must be fully determined, and
> we must share the same fate as the rest of the universe.
> When we look inside our brains, we find similar sort of mix, interconnected neurons, whose behaviour is governed by their underlying molecular structure, which in turn obeys the strict laws of quantum mechanics. If this be the case then how can we make free choices and be held responsible?



I am not one of those people that defer to fate or even quantum mechanics, I do, however, know what beats in my heart, and the reason I am in a marriage that is coming to its end, living with three dogs I hardly see, and spending most of my time in a hamster cage, is absolutely down to my choices and the way I have played the game. Could it have been different? absolutely! 



Original said:


> This is where Baba Nanak comes into the equation as a guide to help us understand the mechanistically arrangement of the universe [*gur ka shabd ko virla bhuja SGGSJ p120, meaning, one light few know].* And, it is to this intent and purpose Sikhism points clearly. Says Nanak, everything has an ultimate end or purpose towards which it will inevitably develop. Humans and their society have in deed an ultimate state of perfection to which they must naturally approximate and towards which they must necessarily strive and that "hakum" is an essential command for precipitating this end.



we are speaking of the same thing, but using a different language, my language is one of perception, logic, of being pragmatic, yours is of spirituality, of order, faith. Mine is of a conscious alignment with Ek Ong Kar, a decision, to live life in a certain way, to you, that alignment appears either automatic or pre destined. 



Original said:


> The importance of spiritual heights of human nature is as powerful as its instinctual depths.



 I disagree, one depends on faith, the other does not. 



Original said:


> The focuses is on the specific human phenomena, that is, humankind's desire to find and fulfil a meaning in their life



 I make people laugh, that is my meaning of life, its not hard to achieve, but from an early age, the sound of laughter obsessed me, my meaning of life is to make everyone else's journey a bit more happy, and that is what I do, I don't think beyond that these days. 


Original said:


> Like you, sizeable population's "will" to meaning of life is frustrated on a worldwide scale



not at all, there is no shortage of people that need to laugh!


Original said:


> Ever more people are haunted by a feeling of meaninglessness which is often accompanied by a feeling of emptiness



Once you get your head round the fact that no amount of sex, cars, money is going to make that feeling go away, it subsides over time, till all you have left is today. 



Original said:


> Classic example of which was you last night, walking out and then having a sense of guilt as a result



The sense of guilt I feel is down to my realisation that I was never meant to be a family man, never meant to be one of those fellows who is always there for his family, what family I had is on the verge of final destruction, because the whole world is now my family, I will gladly help anyone, but my destiny is solitude and the journey to the self.


Original said:


> t is a prerogative and privilege for you to quest for a meaning to your life and to question whether such a meaning exists after all, for no other creature known to humankind asks such a question. Meaning to life may be formed from suffering, guilt or whatever and that is the very reason why life remains potentially meaningful in spite of all the doom n gloom.



The quest was over some time ago, rightly or wrongly, I came to the conclusion that the meaning of life was quite simple, to find out who you are, and to be that person, as far as Sikhism goes, it rubber stamps the end product with the facets of personality of Creator as described in Mool Mantar, so there you go, the meaning of life is to find out who you are, and then be that person aligned as best you can with the personalities of Creator. To achieve this does not need a family, friends, love, happiness, sex, money, cars, power, ego, pride, whatever. In fact solitude is more your friend than your enemy!



Original said:


> Besides; you're not alone, for among the affluent, fifth of humanity who have the good fortune to the fruits of global economy another form of poverty is on the rise, the poverty of the spirit.



I am broke because I choose to be, I could put my prices up, charge more than a chocolate bar for light repairs, pay my engineer less,  stop giving sweets to the local kids, no, I am broke because I enjoy not being a slave to money. 





Original said:


> Speak soon - and forgive for errors, omissions or distasteful content. Spoke to you from my heart as a younger brother.
> 
> Thank you !



yes, I see that, you write warmly, it is always a pleasure to read your writings

so that we can keep this thread on subject, I will start a new thread where we may continue this,


----------



## Original (Jul 6, 2015)

Dear H

I was at a social event today and have just got back behind my desk - apologies for the delayed response.

Further to your reply, there isn't much of a bone to meat-up without breaking the skin. But look, lets use logic to pave the way for a fruitful discussion.

The freedom to choose and do things on the one hand, and on the other, the clock working [events set in motion from the dawn of time, i.e. determinism] of the universe. This is a debate which has occupied the minds and hearts of all the known nerds to date. From the likes of Socrates to the dislikes of Bertrand Russell. I worked on this philosophical problem "freedom of the will versus determinism" in my undergraduate days at uni. And, to date there isn't the general consensus that humankind is free to make choices. The crux of the argument rests with the deterministic camp on the basis that everything, every event has a "cause" and if every event be caused there cannot be absolute freedom full stop. So from a deterministic perspective, you sir, is where events wanted you albeit disillusionment created to effect perception otherwise [let you think that you had a hand in it]. Now if you can prove that none or some of the things that transpired in your life were uncaused then I'll advance further.

Speak soon !


----------



## Crush (Jul 21, 2015)

harry haller said:


> We are not children, and Ek Ong Kar is not our daddy.



Are you sure?

If you deny your Father, you're also denying your families NAAM so you are no longer in the family. This means you will be excluded from recieving your Fathers inheritance after you pass away.

You must honor your mother and father. Without God being your Father, how will you ever honor him?


----------



## Ishna (Jul 22, 2015)

Hello Crush, welcome to SPN.

Gurbani doesn't express Ik Onkar as a father figure, unlike Abrahamic religions.  Sikhi is panentheistic, and conceives of "God" as a creative force.  The creation is contained within Ik Onkar and Ik Onkar is in the creation and beyond it.

It has no gender, so the masculine pronoun is not very helpful.  Also, anthropomorphising (humanising) Ik Onkar does It no justice whatsoever.

Can you please say more about "denying your families NAAM"?  I don't understand what you're tying to express.

Thanks


----------



## Harry Haller (Jul 22, 2015)

Crush said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> If you deny your Father, you're also denying your families NAAM so you are no longer in the family. This means you will be excluded from recieving your Fathers inheritance after you pass away.
> 
> You must honor your mother and father. Without God being your Father, how will you ever honor him?



its all about carrots isn't it, inheritance, heaven, salvation, mukti, sachkhand, we must do certain things, or we don't get the prize,

The Sikhism I follow has no reward, I see God in all and honour God in that fashion, my reward is the smile on a small child's face when I give it chocolate, its God smiling at me


----------

