# What Is Worship? What Is Not?



## seeker3k (Sep 28, 2011)

I am firm believer in Guru Nanak’s ideology. What I get from his writing is very simple message. One does not need to worship IDOLS to get to God. Live simple life and do no harm to any one. 
Every one different idea as to what is idol. There is no need to do arti to God. Arti mean prayer.
My question here today is:

What is worship?
What is idol worship?
What is not worship?
 What is not idol worship?


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 28, 2011)

I will start.

worship |ˈwər sh əp|
noun
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity : the worship of God | ancestor worship.
• the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies : the church was opened for public worship.
• adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle : Krushchev threw the worship of Stalin overboard.
• archaic honor given to someone in recognition of their merit.
• [as title ] ( His/Your Worship) chiefly Brit. used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, esp. a magistrate or mayor : we were soon joined by His Worship the Mayor.


verb ( -shiped |ˈwərʃəpt|, -shiping |ˈwərʃəpɪŋ|; also -shipped, -shipping) [ trans. ]
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites : the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods.
• treat (someone or something) with the reverence and adoration appropriate to a deity : she adores her sons and they worship her.
• [ intrans. ] take part in a religious ceremony : he went to the cathedral because he chose to worship in a spiritually inspiring building.

The idea of a deity or idol figures strongly in these definitions. Here and there a human is being "worshipped" as per rank, merit,  or motherhood.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 29, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> I am firm believer in Guru Nanak’s ideology. What I get from his writing is very simple message. One does not need to worship IDOLS to get to God(this is not just Guru Nanak's ideology, this is confirmed and repeated by all the Gurus) Live simple life and do no harm to any one.
> Every one different idea as to what is idol. There is no need to do arti to God. Arti mean prayer.(I personally agree with you on this, however, we are all different, and I see the benefits of prayer, for those that choose to pray, that prayer is every bit as valuable to those, as the methods I employ to connect with Creator, your post has a slightly arrogant tone about it, what works for you, or indeed me, may not work for anyone else)
> My question here today is:
> 
> ...


(tricky one, is worshiping a tree because it is part of creation, idol worship?, is bowing down before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji idol worship, no, I think the former is to recognize the Creator in everything, and the latter is respect and love. Does idol worship actually exist? Some people worship pictures of the Gurus, this is wrong in itself because the Gurus specifically asked not to be worshiped, so it is not the idol element that is incorrect, simply, I think appreciating anything and everything with Creator in mind is not idol worship)


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 29, 2011)

Seeker Ji Nice question may I postulate that doing No Harm might be worship,what is not worship might be worship,Idol worship might be not idol worship.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 29, 2011)

Sinnerji

I disagree, a man on a desert island could do no harm, yet not appreciate the wonders of nature and creativity all around him, and thus not be worshiping, . Whereas a man who became as one with the Island would in my mind be worshiping, what are your thoughts?


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 29, 2011)

Veer Ji disagreeing might be worship.Is it us who decide what is worship or the one being worshipped?


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 29, 2011)

Brotherji, 

Duality is all very well, but just adopting an opposite point of view for the sake of it, is not in my humble view, worship, although I suppose it can be enlightening 

You have been spending too much time with Bhagat Singhji lol your are getting almost as obscure as he is!


----------



## spnadmin (Sep 29, 2011)

I respectfully request that red be used only by admin. It is becoming increasingly difficult to read posts with red in the quotes bracket and red in the main text of an answer as it is. And if moderation is needed it will be more difficult.

Given time, I will go back and edit member comments on top of comments in red font.

Thanks


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 29, 2011)

whislingmunda

not sure what you mean adminji


----------



## Ambarsaria (Sep 29, 2011)

seeker3k ji some ccomments,


seeker3k said:


> I am firm believer in Guru Nanak’s ideology.
> _-  Understanding and not just believing should drive one.  Believing is a trap.
> 
> _What I get from his writing is very simple message. One does not need to worship IDOLS to get to God. Live simple life and do no harm to any one.
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*

My two brothers Sinner and Harry Haller ji seem to be doing the  following.  Seeker3k ji I would have included you if it was 3 people  video lol
Monty Python - Argument Clinic      - YouTube ​ 

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Sep 29, 2011)

I found an analogy between God and idol. We know what a circle is. It is a round figure where each point is equidistant from a fixed centre. But when we try to draw a circle, we can't draw a perfect one. Some of its points will be more or less than the radial distance. So we understand what a circle is. But even if we use biggest computer and draw a circle down to a million points, we don't get a perfect circle. Same is with an idol.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 29, 2011)

Veer Ji I didn't get paid though I was doing it in my spare time which is something like worship


----------



## Seeker9 (Sep 29, 2011)

All I would have to add is this:

Idolatry I think is straightforward enough...i.e imbuing a physical object with such significance that you worship the object and may even attribute supernatural powers to the object

Worship then can lead people to idolatry. 

Personally I would prefer to make a distinction between worship and appreciation. You can appreciate the wonder of the Creation without indulging in "worship"

To me, recital of prayers should be more about making a spiritual connection and not worship 

I hope that makes some sort of sense...


----------



## seeker3k (Sep 30, 2011)

It is not my intension to insult any one here. I only say as I see it. 
An idol is thing that is made from non living matter. Like Hindus make stone or clay or metal. There idols are not living thing  As intelligent people knows that there were no shiva,brahma,vishnu. Yet people are worshiping those idols. Any thing that is not living is idol. 
Is granth living? For millions it is. But book can not talk book can not speak. Book can not move from one place to other. If people want to believe that book is living guru then that is there thing. But it is blind faith started by unknown being. We Sikhs just wanted to do what the Hindus were and are doing. Every day there is new thing being added in the ritual of worship. People tell me that their things are getting done by ardas so why you complaing? Have we lost sense that by getting bhai ji to do the ardas our problems will be solved? We created our own problem why bring god into it.

None of the Guru said any where that he is guru. It is only people called them guru. Why?
Example: There was a doctor who could cure any ailment. He died if we go to his grave and pray and show respect to that grave will he cure us? In the same way why are we prey to gurus who has been dead for long time?  Some one wrote that he respect his mom/dad by touching their feet. Is it not true that insult mom/dad if we don’t do what mom/dad tells us to do and we don’t do that? The real respect is to do what the guru told us to do. Touching the feet of mom/dad is Hindu custom not Sikhs. I have not seen Sikhs touching their mom/dad feet. Those who are doing is because they have seen Hindus doing it.
Every religion claim that their holy book is written or spoke by god. Yet no one of those religions try to feed food or put glass of water by the bed at night. No one put their holy books in AC room and put blanket on it. Only the Hindu and Sikhs are doing it.

The bani in granth are written in gurmukhi. What if one can’t not read gurmukhi and he cant not hear he is def.  Is that person is doomed?
God gave us logic for some reason. It is to use and make life better. Jut for one minute thing as a neutral person. Are we not doing the things what guru tsaid in granth not to do.
We are doing all those things what the Hindus are doing. But we call them but different name 
Religion is teaching hatred not respect.

I am all for respect but don’t force it on others and see if it makes sense.

There is only one rule of humanity; DO NO HARM TO ANY LIFE


----------



## findingmyway (Sep 30, 2011)

Guru Granth Sahib ji is not the same as a stone idol as it contains the knowledge, the teachings, the key to be a Sikh. The Guru Granth Sahib ji cannot talk but it can be read. SIdols give us no knowledge!! AC rooms are more those doing the reading as it is hard to focus and take on what you are being taught when you are too hot! The cloth protects the pages so they last longer. Anyone who is a fan of books will know how easily books can get ruined! Sometimes its worth looking beyond appearances, at the deeper sentiments, before judging actions.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 30, 2011)

I am all for less tradition and ritual, and more substance, And I agree with some, but not all of Seeker3k's post. 

Ok, so 90% of sikhs have got it wrong, as Gyaniji pointed out in another post, most are Hindu in action, so what do we do? 

Nothing, concentrate on our own relationship with creation and Waheguru, and get it right for ourselves in whatever way we feel comfortable, ours is not to judge, or to impose our views on others, if you are having a moan at how Hinduism has crept into Sikhism, then I am with you all the way, If you want to protest and do something about it, your on your own then brother

I would point out that the tenth master made it quite clear that the SGGS should be treated as a living Guru, and thanks to a court case,(rightly or wrongly) it is legally so, but it is up to the individual to do what he or she feels comfortable given this diktat from Guru Gobind Singh ji. 

Also when people tend to worship idols, they are thinking of the power beyond the idol, not the idol itself, some people are clever enough to use their imagination, it is not fair to pronounce judgement on those that need a physical idol if it helps them visualize their god, we are all different, do not harm any life, do not pronounce judgement on those who do not harm any life either, no?


----------



## Ambarsaria (Sep 30, 2011)

> *Note:*  I do assume that seker3k is an adult capable of rational thinking.  I do apologize ahead of time if the person in seeker3k is a younger member at spn and is just seeking help as my answers would be considered harsh even by me in such a scenario.



seeker3k ji some comments and none is made to insult you but written in a direct style like your own,


seeker3k said:


> It is not my intension to insult any one here. I only say as I see it.
> _  -  I am sorry you do insult as you do not read answers or ignore the specific answers and respond regardless_.
> 
> An idol is thing that is made from non living matter. Like Hindus make stone or clay or metal. There idols are not living thing  As intelligent people knows that there were no shiva,brahma,vishnu. Yet people are worshiping those idols. Any thing that is not living is idol.
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 30, 2011)

Seeker Veera everyone knows Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a book,we all know it is a boat!Now if you want to ask a question ask something like' Is the Guru still the Guru if there is no Sikh?Because one is known from the other. That might lead you to realise that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji can be put on CD, on Web, in Book,but it is not ink,paper or code ,that is the medium only.Guru is known as Guru because there is a Sikh ,the Self, it is a divine truth,It is not as it seems.If God forbid no trees were left to make books Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji will still exist but in it's matterless form.

Ambarasaria Ji 
Guru Nanak said "Jaisai mai ayee khasam ki bani and we say Akaash bani.I took that to mean from God,I could be wrong as usual ! By the way Master Musketeer Self editing is Sikhi


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Sep 30, 2011)

Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

Here is my 2 cent worth.



seeker3k said:


> It is not my intension to insult any one here. I only say as I see it.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your good intentions but it is much more than it meets the eye. It seems you want to learn things that you do not know. Things that you may have little or no knowledge of. Thus, your observations are not based on any studies in depth because you have not done so but more for you to think aloud in order to find the answers. Well, you are at the right spot shall I say!
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh


----------



## Searching (Sep 30, 2011)

Rather than worrying about what is worship and what is not a Sikh should only worry about Naam Japna and contemplate on the Shabad Guru.
What difference would it make if we know what is "not worship" if we are still unaware of what is "worship"
Or what difference would it make if we were to know what is "worship" but do not know what is not?
Only significant thing here is to "do worship" even if what is "not worship" is not known.
SGGS ji guides us to "Naam Japna". I believe that shall be the Sikh way of worship.


----------



## Seeker9 (Sep 30, 2011)

Dear Seeker3 Ji

I can understand your frustration with organised religions that are steeped in dogma and ritual but Sikhism is not one of them

I read a comment on another unrelated thread, (think it was by Findingmyway Ji to give her due credit), but she basically said something along the lines of judge a religion by its core teachings and not the people who claim to follow it

So if you see anyone indulging in questionable ritualistic practice, do not dismiss an entire path on the basis of that. 

Instead, I think it would be more helpful if we could focus on what aspects of what SGGS has to teach us you have issues with


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 1, 2011)

Ambersariaji, Tejwantji, 

Between the two of you gentlemen, you encapsulate 90% of my thinking of sikhi, however, I feel you have been quite harsh with seeker3k, below is not my answers, but my understanding of what he is asking/stating






seeker3k said:


> It is not my intension to insult any one here. I only say as I see it.
> An idol is thing that is made from non living matter. Like Hindus make stone or clay or metal. There idols are not living thing  As intelligent people knows that there were no shiva,brahma,vishnu. Yet people are worshiping those idols. Any thing that is not living is idol. (how can we not agree with this?)
> Is granth living? For millions it is. But book can not talk book can not speak. Book can not move from one place to other. If people want to believe that book is living guru then that is there thing. But it is blind faith started by unknown being. We Sikhs just wanted to do what the Hindus were and are doing. Every day there is new thing being added in the ritual of worship. People tell me that their things are getting done by ardas so why you complaing? Have we lost sense that by getting bhai ji to do the ardas our problems will be solved? We created our own problem why bring god into it.(I do not think this is a question about respect to the SGGS, I think it is more about the many many sikhs that bypass the knowledge and information containing within, and concentrate on the ceremony and ritual that surrounds it. We want a bit of pomp and circumstance, rather than content and substance, are we not all dismayed by the amount of Hinduism that has slowly been creeping in for years?)
> 
> ...



So Uncleji's is my interpretation anywhere near the mark? or have I been eating too much dung lately? lol


----------



## seeker3k (Oct 1, 2011)

I am not against Sikhs as most people may think. Guru Nanak did his best to make us free of rituals but we are still into it and maybe more then the Hindus. I am not against bani nor granth. Bani is great teaching granth is full of knowledge. It is not to be worshiped. It is to understand and live by it

No where in the granth it is written what ritual should be done to please God.

We praise some one because we need some thing from him. Can be please God by doing the rituals. Guru Nanak thought we can not. God is not a person that we can please and get what we want. I am a Sikh too but by reading my thoughts many may think I am anti Sikh. It is their choice as to what they believ


----------



## Spades (Oct 1, 2011)

What is worship?

Doing something that makes one reflect upon either a higher power or some sort of spiritual essence. 

What is idol worship?

When a worshiper project's his/her reflection onto a inanimate object or a non-human living creature (snakes, cows, trees, etc).  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




> I am not against Sikhs as  most people may think. Guru Nanak did his best to make us free of  rituals but we are still into it and maybe more then the Hindus. I am  not against bani nor granth. Bani is great teaching granth is full of  knowledge. It is not to be worshiped. It is to understand and live by it
> No where in the granth it is written what ritual should be done to please God.
> We  praise some one because we need some thing from him. Can be please God  by doing the rituals. Guru Nanak thought we can not. God is not a person  that we can please and get what we want. I am a Sikh too but by reading  my thoughts many may think I am anti Sikh. It is their choice as to  what they believ




If you are a Sikh then why do you call yourself an Agnostic instead of a Sikh? That's a rather peculiar thing for a Sikh to do. You may have already answered this question but I haven't been around in a while.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2011)

Spades Ji  For an adherent of evil I don't think that response was evil enough :interestedmunda:


----------



## seeker3k (Oct 2, 2011)

I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.

Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing


----------



## Ambarsaria (Oct 2, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.
> 
> Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing


seeker3k ji I state things as I understand them and  as they are to me.  But there is no intent of vengeance or personal attack.

I am human, so would like your comments on my posts (if there is perceived attack) so that I can better myself.

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2011)

Seeker Veera 'If evil be spoken of you and it be true, correct yourself, if it be a lie, laugh at it.'Epictetus


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Oct 2, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.
> 
> Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing



Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. No one has attacked you personally about your harsh, blunt questioning. I have known you for many years and I understand and appreciate your quest for learning.

It seems to me that you are upset at yourself for not finding the answers within and we are of no help to make you understand what you are asking for no matter how much we try.

Your post had so many different questions some related to Sikhi and others not in a random manner and I am sorry to know that you do not like the answers but I would urge you to share with us what you do not like in the answers given and counter them with your way of thinking about Sikhi so we can all learn from this experience. This forum is created for this sole purpose.

Tell me in specific what you felt insulted with from my posts so I can correct the course or explain it in different ways. 

As I did mention before,I have known you for many years and we have always  interacted and I have always tried in these years to try to understand you and give the answers to the best of my knowledge.

Let's learn from each other via interaction by expressing our opinions. I wish I had the magic wand to take your inner frustrations away.

Hope to hear from you,

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Oct 2, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Ambersariaji, Tejwantji,
> 
> Between the two of you gentlemen, you encapsulate 90% of my thinking of sikhi, however, I feel you have been quite harsh with seeker3k, below is not my answers, but my understanding of what he is asking/stating.
> 
> ...



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with your opinion about myself being harsh to Seeker3k ji but as they say that disagreements are essential in any learning process.

Each response of yours to the questions raised by Seeker3k ji deserves a different thread. 

So, I would request you to start each thread at a time so we can discuss what you mean by your responses on each subject you have mentioned in your post.

Will wait for the threads so all of us can enhance our understanding towards humanity.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2011)

Spners sometimes it is not what we say but how we say it ,if the poster is young reply like he is your son ,if older like he is your father,let Sikhs have sharp swords but never let us speak sharply.It is very hard to strike a balance though ,I think everyone has acted with good intentions yet still somehow Seeker Ji feels attacked,that is because perception is everything.


----------



## Taranjeet singh (Oct 2, 2011)

A very thought provoking question.
Agreed seeker ji, Life is all about leading good moral life.
Without going into semantics, I would construe _worship _as doing or trying to be doing acts and deeds in daily life as if He is close to us and watching us . One should also try to practice. Honesty, humility,truthfulness, forgiveness and compassion  in daily life [pillars or attributes] , these are required for taking up this exercise. Gurbani tells us many more things.

Our Hindu Brothers do worship idols.


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 2, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.
> 
> Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing



Dear Seeker3 Ji

I think if you are more specific then you will get some answers

If however you make less specific comments that can be construed to be disrespectful to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or to Sikhism itself, then you can expect a sharper response

Such a response may become necessary in the interests of setting the record straight and is entirely natural

So as I asked before, let's have a debate around specific issues..

Do people, including some Sikhs indulge in idolatry?
Yes I daresay they do

Do people, including some Sikhs indulge in ritualistic practices in the misguided belief it is an aspect of worship or respect?
Yes again there probably are people like that

Is this a direct fault of Sikhism?
NO

Is this a direct fault of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
ABSOLUTELY NOT

So let us agree then, if we can, that we do not condone idolatry or ritualisitic practices in any faith and we are eager to learn from Scripture in the hope we can make some sense of our lives and better ourselves

Does that sound reasonable?


----------



## Navdeep88 (Oct 2, 2011)

What about Bhagat Dhanna Ji, he connected with the Divine by "worshipping" a rock and is mentioned in SGGS. The pandit who directed him, who focused more on ritual than honest prayer, did not. Maybe its about the intent of your heart and your devotion... and less about the method of prayer. 

I don't think SGGS could be reduced to an idol by any means. Its not just the physical form (a book) but what's written in it. If we ever happen to forget, stray wutever, SGGS describes perfectly what our intent should be to the divine. Gurbani is guidance, something we can digest spiritually and mentally. Its whats written inside SGGS, not so much the physical form that we "worship".


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2011)

Navdeep Ji He worshipped what he believed was God and for his bhagat God chose to become a rock.Perhaps God looks at your intention more than your method.Dhanna is described as a simple Jatt but he writes like a scholar.


----------



## Navdeep88 (Oct 2, 2011)

I agree with you Sinner Ji, that's why i put worship in quotations b/c I wasn't quite sure how to approach it or have full knowledge of the term. But considering idol worship was mentioned, I thought mentioning Bhagat Dhanna Ji was relevant... that it was more his Faith, and not the rock/idol itself.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2011)

Navdeep Ji Sorry I did not notice the quotations,it is relevant,God can turn a lie into a truth and he decides what is worship, as nothing we can do can be adequate or worthy of 'him'.


----------



## Spades (Oct 2, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Spades Ji  For an adherent of evil I don't think that response was evil enough :interestedmunda:



I'm just warming up Mr. Sinner



seeker3k said:


> I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.
> 
> Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing



You are in a minority opinion so expect to get some sort of heat coming your way. I'm in the minority opinion on here (non-Sikh) as well but I fully know that I will a lot of opposition.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2011)

Spades Veera Sikhs are a minority almost everywhere so they should be able relate to those who are in the minority here,(well that is the theory any way).I did not mean to encourage you ,it was tongue in cheek, as I was excited by your unorthodox adherence!


----------



## Spades (Oct 2, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Spades Veera Sikhs are a minority almost everywhere so they should be able relate to those who are in the minority here,(well that is the theory any way).



You would be surprised at how fast a minority group can turn around and oppress another group once they become a majority (Puritans in the Mass. Bay Colony for example). 



> I did not mean to encourage you ,it was tongue in cheek, as I was excited by your unorthodox adherence!


Too late...

Expect a Death Star attack by next week. =)


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 2, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> What about Bhagat Dhanna Ji, he connected with the Divine by "worshipping" a rock and is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The pandit who directed him, who focused more on ritual than honest prayer, did not. Maybe its about the intent of your heart and your devotion... and less about the method of prayer.
> 
> I don't think Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could be reduced to an idol by any means. Its not just the physical form (a book) but what's written in it. If we ever happen to forget, stray wutever, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes perfectly what our intent should be to the divine. Gurbani is guidance, something we can digest spiritually and mentally. Its whats written inside Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, not so much the physical form that we "worship".



This is a good question, and it has been discussed in our section on Bhagats at length. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar-project/23874-bhagats-sri-guru-granth-sahib-ji.html


----------



## gursikhi.jeevan (Oct 2, 2011)

Worship varies from person to person. Worshipping is remembering God's name again and again. As Sikh we are suppose to say God's name again and again. As for Idol worshipping, it doesn't exist in Sikhism. For Sikhs, the guru is Shabad. We can remember God's name by Shabad.


----------



## Navdeep88 (Oct 2, 2011)

Thank you spnadmin Ji,

I will have a look through it, actually its one of the topics I've been curious about for a while so thanks for the direction... I love interfaith dialogue, and its awesome the amount of openness our Gurus held to people of all faiths, held equality at the core.


----------



## seeker3k (Oct 3, 2011)

IT seems to me that many people here are into rituals. That’s why they get upset when I question the rituals.


ADMIN NOTE: I was trying to clean up the post and remove the office tags but unfortunately there was a glitch and the post was lost. Seeker3k ji, please can you repost your comments? I apologise profusely. In future it is better to use a programme such as word pad or notepad as Microsoft Word leaves tags which make reading difficult. Findingmyway.
<!--?"urn:
Tejwant ji, I am not upset on my self I have the answers clear. There is no doubts in my mind. I am totally free of useless of rituals. It looks that brahman’s influence still haunt them. Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals. How did u figure it out that I am upset at my self?

I am only trying to wake people up from Hindu brain washing. Here and in real life where ever I meet people who r under the hindu influence.

Many people still believe in the gurus sakhis. The sakhis were written after 1850. They are not all true-->


----------



## Ishna (Oct 3, 2011)

Seeker3k, what has given you the impression people here are into rituals?  



> Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals.




 People can look at other people and want a piece of their fun.  People  can get scared when they are not of firm faith and in their frightened  state they can reach out to that which they shouldn't (rituals to keep  bad things away).  They can also feel empty leaving behind rituals from  their childhood, or from their former religion.  And I guess it can be  tricky coming from a ritual-rich environment to Sikhi which is fairly  devoid of worshipful expressions.  I know I personally had some issues  coming from Paganism which is full of rituals, to Sikhi.  I didn't want  to just sit down and read my Japji Sahib.  I wanted to light candles and  incense and 'interact' with my spirituality.  I don't know if others  have had a similar experience.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 3, 2011)

Seeker Ji I disagree that Hindu rituals are to blame, our Guru gave his life for that religion that now gets so much blame by the biased,anything wrong with Sikhi today and we blame Hinduism for creeping in?thats like blaming jews for problems in the Catholic Church.

Spades Ji Now... I... am... the ...master


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 3, 2011)

Unclejios, 

I just cant help fighting for the underdog now and then, and it gets me in trouble constantly!

thank you both for your kind replies

kaurhug


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 3, 2011)

Harry Haller ji.
If we mean worship as PUJAA then there are several quotes in SGGS wherein you get the status of Pujaa .
There are quotes in SGGS making strong suggestion for Pujaa.Therefore the concept of Pujaa should be understood accordingly then I think this can make clear what is worship or what is not.
We get quickly disturbed when there is question of rituals.We can understand ritual as any practice visible or invisible being undertaken for the connection with Sati Guru is nothing but a ritual.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Oct 3, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Harry Haller ji.
> If we mean worship as PUJAA then there are several quotes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji wherein you get the status of Pujaa .
> There are quotes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji making strong suggestion for Pujaa.Therefore the concept of Pujaa should be understood accordingly then I think this can make clear what is worship or what is not.
> We get quickly disturbed when there is question of rituals.We can understand ritual as any practice visible or invisible being undertaken for the connection with Sati Guru is nothing but a ritual.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash S. Bagga ji thanks for your post.

Please quote one specific shabad "promoting pooja" and we can all review and learn and go from there.  No one liners and generalizations please we are already suffering enough through this thread due to that.  Please use the following to post the complete shabad,

srigranth.org

If you don't like the translation please clarify with your understanding to enhance understanding.  If you need help posting let me know I will be happy to do so.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Oct 3, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Unclejios,
> 
> I just cant help fighting for the underdog now and then, and it gets me in trouble constantly!
> 
> ...



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you again. Thanks to Guru Nanak, there is no underdog. We are all equal unlike other religions whose dogmas have the skills to create underdogs and hence keep them lassoed.

The proof of above is in the following:

1. No clergy in Sikhi which means we are all messengers of the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

2. Anyone can participate in the Gurdwaras or at home congregations and do Shabad Vichaar.

3. Anyone can read and write about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, which is still forbidden in my religions.

4. The concept of Pangat and Sangat by breaking bread in the form of Langar with anyone of any hue,creed, faith and from any social class, whether a Prince or a Pauper shows that there is no underdog.

5. Anyone can visit our Gurdwaras, once again from any faith. That is why we have 4 doors at our sanctum sanctorum-Haramander Sahib.

The above shows that we are all equal as Sikhs. No Sikh is an underdog.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 3, 2011)

Unclejios, 

underdog-Harry's definition-someone on the receiving end of a good kicking, which is not deserved. Sorry gentlemen, blame my wife, she taught me never to walk by and do nothing, or worse, join in! 

Let us be honest, your both intelligent, articulate, and a wee bit angry, and I could not understand why the points raised were treated with disdain, however, you all clearly know each other, so I am going home to complain to wife that she is not always right about these things!

peacesignkaur


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Oct 3, 2011)

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Let us be honest, your both intelligent, articulate, and a wee bit  angry, and I could not understand why the points raised were treated  with disdain, however, you all clearly know each other, so I am going  home to complain to wife that she is not always right about these  things!



Yes, let's be honest. Where do your accusations of anger and disdain come from?

Can you please specify them in my posts to Seeker3k ji? I would appreciate that.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Ambarsaria (Oct 3, 2011)

Harry Haller ji and Tejwant Singh ji please clarify if I am part of this accusation/defence or I am OK.  Specifically Harry Haller ji, I was not sure if you were addressing one uncle or two lolmundahug  Otherwise I am staying quiet as I believe great amount of information with sufficient clarity is already here for one to learn if one chooses to.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 3, 2011)

Harry Veera even a guilty man is provided a defence attorney he still has to try to persuade others in the court ,Sikhs are historically better in defence than in prosecution. Worship is Worship when it is done with a clean mind and a pure intention.Much love to all !Ambarsaria Ji to clarify you are neither because you are the judge!:redturban:


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2011)

Prakash s bagga ji

I humbly but adamantly request that you provide full shabads with a complete vichaar rather than showing a line here and there that seems to say that SGGS supports puja. That is the impression that your comments create.


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 3, 2011)

On other matters, please discuss issues, not personalities. Let's not attribute feelings and motives which accomplishes little. If someone asks questions that one finds irksome, one can always ask for a clarification. Thanks


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 3, 2011)

> It seems to me that many people here are into rituals. That’s why they get upset when I question the rituals.



No, I think they get upset when what you post suggests rituals are accepted practice and endorsed by Scripture




> Tejwant ji, I am not upset on my self I have the answers clear. There is no doubts in my mind. I am totally free of useless of rituals. It looks that brahman’s influence still haunt them. Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals. How did u figure it out that I am upset at my self?



You know it requires a lot of discipline to just sit and meditate. I guess it is easier for people to indulge in rituals. Quite sad. I wonder how many of these people indulging in rituals actually practice their daily mediation and prayers...




> I am only trying to wake people up from deleted. Here and in real life where ever I meet people who r under the hindu influence.



I don't think Hinduism is entirely to blame. I think my above theory about taking an easy option also applies  



> Many people still believe in the gurus sakhis. The sakhis were written after 1850. They are not all true



This is an area where I have no knowledge. Grateful if you could explain more


----------



## BhagatSingh (Oct 4, 2011)

With the Grace of the Supreme Personal and Abstract Force Being Energy thinga-ma-jig 




> ...Rituals are accepted practice and endorsed by Scripture


They are. Human societies cannot function without *ritual*. Saints and Gurus of the past recognized the place of rituals in religion and allowed them to continue. Through rituals you can bring communities together. They are also important as a path to God. e.g. worshipping a diety together in a large gathering with plates with oil lamps and sweets, music and hymns, gathering together in prayer, in readings, bowing down, serving of parshad afterwards, gathering 5 times a day. These rituals hold us together.

One may not even know how ritualistic one's culture is unless someone from another culture points it out. Of course, those who point out how ritualistic others are, often don't realize their own rituals. They view others in bad light for what they don't recignize in themselves, not in their community, not yet, I mean in their individual ritualistic self.

(meditate)

Religions without rituals are lame, they cannot be run. Human society without ritual cannot be run. Our whole society no matter how modern we think it is, just as ritualistic as it ever was. 

(meditate)


Atheists are just as ritualistic as religious folk. They have their own ceremonies. 

Whenever someone is awarded everyone gathers together and gives cup-like trophies, or turbans, etc.
All the ceremonies in marriage
Wearing a turban everyday/ Styling your hair daily
Going to school daily
Taking a shower daily
Brushing you teeth daily
Parties/ gathering on forums to argue... err discuss things

...to mention a few. E.g. It is not necessary to shower everyday. "Those damn foreigners waste too much water cleaning themselves. F****** it up for the rest of us." - An outsider (meditate)

These are rather pointless things. Or are they?

The meanings underlying the rituals seem to change quite a bit and differ from person to person, but ritual ultimately remains, with slight modifications over time. The amount of ritual is not decreasing at all. I would argue it does not need to, and to fight it, is like banging your head against a brick wall. Stop and see its importance instead.

Rituals are OK. What is not OK is that most people go through life, totally unconscious of any experience. They are focused on past events and future plannings without any value for what is happening in this moment. Rituals are often performed without any real intention or any real devotion. Instead they should be done with complete focus, just like any other task.

(meditate)

*Worship* in wordly sphere takes the form of ritual. Worship and it's associated rituals must be done with Shardha (the spiritual sphere), which is total attentiveness (in Bhagati, Sharda is the attentiveness arising from fear and love states, like how one feels towards their parents "Toon mat pita hum barak tere" You are my mother and father, and i am your child.). Without Shardha, worship is like brushing your teeth. With Shardha brushing your teeth becomes worship. 

(meditate)



> Wikipedia:
> Sraddha is a broad concept which has no direct English relative or equivalent. In addition to faith, it can also be associated with trust, confidence, and loyalty.[1] The teacher Ammachi describes it as the "constant alertness arising from Love", and when choosing a single word to translate it into English, has used "awareness".[2] Other writers have also described the concept with emphasis on the intersection of faith and mindfulness, and it has been translated in this vein with words such as "diligence".[3]


Devotion is part of Shardha. Keep this in mind as you read on.

The highest form of Shardha is seeing all moments and content of life as sacred. But to get to this place one starts by seeing certain things as sacred like (for a Sikh) Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the 10 Gurus (devotion comes into play) then moving on to see the sacred in everything else (a greater devotion for God).
What does it mean to see something as sacred? When something is sacred, there is an increased alertness towards it taht arises out of both love and fear together. For example, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, one's turban, Nishan Sahib, your parents.
We often do things to cultivate this alertness. E.g. bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan sahib and parents/elders, not letting the turban fall on the floor or worst yet, in the toilet, always placing the turban, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan Sahib on a high platform. Some people go even further and hold onto cloth pieces from coverings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Nishan ahib. All of these acts are the beginnings of cultivating of Shardha, and they all happen to be rituals.

Shardha is the very basis of every human doing, and thus of worhip and rituals. An act without Shardha leads only to suffering. An act without concentration and devotion leads only to suffering. Just think about your day job, most people neither concentrate nor are mentally devoted to what they do. They suffer constantly.

(meditate)

Ritual is the communication of Shardha to others and to yourself. Combining Ritual and Shardha we get Worship.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Oct 4, 2011)

> It seems to me that many people here are into rituals. That’s why they get upset when I question the rituals. 			 		   No, I think they get upset when what you post suggests rituals are accepted practice and endorsed by Scripture
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...



Seeker9ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am just curious to know where did you find the post by Seeker3k ji which you have responded to? I have seen the whole thread and could not find it.

Would you be kind enough to PM me the whole post if you have it anywhere? I would appreciate it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 4, 2011)

Tejwant Singh Ji


seeker3k said:


> IT seems to me that many people here are into rituals. That’s why they get upset when I question the rituals.
> ADMIN NOTE: I was trying to clean up the post and remove the office tags but unfortunately there was a glitch and the post was lost. Seeker3k ji, please can you repost your comments? I apologise profusely. In future it is better to use a programme such as word pad or notepad as Microsoft Word leaves tags which make reading difficult. Findingmyway.
> <!--?"urn:
> Tejwant ji, I am not upset on my self I have the answers clear. There is no doubts in my mind. I am totally free of useless of rituals. It looks that brahman’s influence still haunt them. Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals. How did u figure it out that I am upset at my self?
> ...


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 4, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Seeker Ji Nice question may I postulate that doing No Harm might be worship,what is not worship might be worship,Idol worship might be not idol worship.


 
Udasi Masketeer Ji does this then still apply or should I amend it?


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 4, 2011)

I too share Tejwant ji's question. I spent nearly an hour searching this thread from stem to stern. Thanks for the information in advance.


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 4, 2011)

Dear SPNAdmin Ji and Tejwant Ji

I have sent you the text as requested. For the benefit of other SPNers, all I did was click on "quote post" intending to reply to the remaining visible line but instead, I could see additional text

I pasted it into a text editor and removed the HTML tags and then pasted it back into the post box formatting it there

Hope that makes sense!


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 4, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> With the Grace of the Supreme Personal and Abstract Force Being Energy thinga-ma-jig
> 
> 
> They are. Human societies cannot function without *ritual*. Saints and Gurus of the past recognized the place of rituals in religion and allowed them to continue. Through rituals you can bring communities together. They are also important as a path to God. e.g. worshipping a diety together in a large gathering with plates with oil lamps and sweets, music and hymns, gathering together in prayer, in readings, bowing down, serving of parshad afterwards, gathering 5 times a day. These rituals hold us together.
> ...




Dear Bhagat Singh Ji

In a general context, I don't dispute anything you have written

However, in the context of my (limited) understanding of Sikhism, I would have to conclude that ritual is not necessary. This is what attracts me to Sikhism in the first place

With ritual there is always the danger that you think you've done your bit and something good when in reality, you have done nothing constructive in spiritual terms

Take for example the Catholic confessional and then the Priest absolves the sinner providing they say the required number of "Hail Mary's" commensurate with the sin! 

Job done?
 I don't think so!

I have no time for ritual and it will not be a feature of anything I do moving forward. But that is just my personal view and approach


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 4, 2011)

Bhagatsinghji, 

I have looked hard at my life, and am struggling to find any ritual, there is respect, but no ritual, maybe we should start a new post, how much of our life is ritual :interestedkudi:


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 4, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Harry Veera Quote
> Rituals of various kinds are a feature of almost all known human societies, past or present. They include not only the various worship rites and sacraments of organized religions and cults, but also the rites of passage of certain societies, atonement and purification rites, oaths of allegiance, dedication ceremonies, coronations and presidential inaugurations, marriages and funerals, school "rush" traditions and graduations, club meetings, sports events, Halloween parties, veterans parades, Christmas shopping and more. Many activities that are ostensibly performed for concrete purposes, such as jury trials, execution of criminals, and scientific symposia, are loaded with purely symbolic actions prescribed by regulations or tradition, and thus partly ritualistic in nature. Even common actions like hand-shaking and saying hello may be termed rituals




Dear Sinner Ji

I don't think anyone denies the existence of ritual

My point is it is not a necessity in order to follow a spiritual path

I think the theme of this thread and Seeker3k Ji's intention was to point out that needless rituals do exist and are of no value


----------



## seeker3k (Oct 4, 2011)

There is no need to repost. He read it and posted that seeker9 posted it.
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
I never blame Hindus. Hindus worship idols and they are proud of it. We are doing every thing what we condemn Hindus for. And we don’t admit that we are doing useless rituals. We call it respect. Then Hindus also giving respect to their idols.
I have seen many people here condemn Hindus and others are religions of what they are doing. We should look at our self what we are doing.
We were all Hindus first till Gobind Sing gave us separate identity. Even then we were Hindus till recently when Khalsas wanted the Kkalistan. “There is saying of it walk like duck, look like duck speak like duck, then is sure is duck”.
<o> </o>
Here in <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> many so called Sikhs when they buy car they take the car to gurdwara for matha tekena. Ask bhai ji to do the ardas that their car,truck be safe don’t brake down. There are many rituals going on it will take whole book to write them. Bhai ji do the ardas because it makes him money. It is bhai ji making new rituals for the money. It is not the pundit telling Sikhs to do idol worship.
2 biggest useless rituals that bother me and people like me. It is the pictures of gurus. These are face pictures they are not any gurus pictures. Now some is going to condemn me for this too when they knows very well these pictures are not real. I will become bad evil man here.
Every religion has and need rituals to function. But build faith on sand will not last. Our kids and people of other religions ask questions on this. What we should tell them?
<o> </o>
The Jews and Muslim don’t have any picture of their prophets. How are they flushing?
<o> </o>
Ishna ji, doing rituals of lighting the candles when she read japji. Having lit candle is romantic it is ok. Ishna ji sorry for suggestion some thing. If one light ghee jot at the time of reading japji or any other book, or to do meditation. Burning candle will burn oxygen whis will be bad for brain. Any burning will burn oxygen at least by burnibg ghee will be better for brain. It may be better then candles. When ghee is burning it produce negative ions. Negative make one relax. It is good for the body and brain.
<o> </o>
I know it very well that people are going to change their ways.
Nanak was also kicked out of villages and was stoned for telling the truth.


----------



## BhagatSingh (Oct 5, 2011)

Seeker9 ji,
An unenlightened one does a ritual because he expects something in return, he expects a result. An enlightened person does a ritual with shardha, expecting no results. 

Sikhism has a huge social component (rituals, social service, politics, military), in addition to its spiritual component. The rituals in Sikhism are quite necessary for its longevity e.g. the Khalsa initiation is a good example of this, also the wearing of a turban, a young man's first turban tying ceremony, (and many more) all these things are quite necessary for Sikhism to exist. 

Rituals also physically prepare you for spirituality by making you do things with your body. The brain enters into the spiritual state more easily this way. When you do something physically, it becomes a reality for your brain. 

An exmaple scenario for a religious ritual:
"I am doing meditation now by doing X, Y and Z." 
X, Y, Z are always present during meditation
*brain switches to meditation patterns when it recognizes X, Y and Z*

Many people use incense when they meditate. Raagis sing kirtan. Dervishes twirl about. Yogis apply colour to their bodies. So on and so forth.


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 5, 2011)

Seeker 3k [/QUOTE][FONT=border=]The Jews and Muslim ...... How are they flushing?[/FONT][FONT=border=][FONT=border=]Ishna ji, doing rituals of lighting the candles when she read japji..... [/FONT]Guru Nanak was also kicked out of villages and was stoned for telling the truth. [/QUOTE] 

That is easy, Muslims flush with the left, Jews with the right,Isna might be putting herself in the right mindset,as there is a spiritual aspect to Gurmukhi( in that it is addressed to our spirit )It does not mean she is to twirling around in the room or fainting but we must transcend to the Self atleast or we are just 'readers, not understanders of the truth.
Brother never compare yourself to the Guru ,even if there is a tiny element of truth in what you say ,the Guru is the Ocean of Truth.
[/FONT]


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Seeker9 ji,
> An unenlightened one does a ritual because he expects something in return, he expects a result. An enlightened person does a ritual with shardha, expecting no results.
> 
> Sikhism has a huge social component (rituals, social service, politics, military), in addition to its spiritual component. The rituals in Sikhism are quite necessary for its longevity e.g. the Khalsa initiation is a good example of this, also the wearing of a turban, a young man's first turban tying ceremony, (and many more) all these things are quite necessary for Sikhism to exist.
> ...




Dear Bhagat Ji

I appreciate what you have written

Yes as you have noted, religion does make a significant contribution to culture and if we look at India, then yes it does have a long-standing
tradition of ceremonies based on honour and respect for family and deities etc

But I choose to make a distinction between the cultural aspects and the spiritual aspects

Personally, I see no real value in ritual and so stand by my view it is unneccesary

But this is just my personal view and if others find it helpful and constructive, then more power to them

As long as they do not imbue the ritual with such significance that it obscures their vision

We have some examples below..e.g seeking blessings at the Gurdwara for a new car etc

Completely irrelevant, valueless, pointless and blatant superstition


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 5, 2011)

In my own view, any action that has no consequence is a ritual, so brushing your teeth, shaking someones hand, they all have consequences, if lighting a candle, or, indeed anything, assists in meditation or prayer, then that is a personal choice, and also has a consequence, the consequences all being positive. 

Some rituals however, have no consequences at all, an example, I was at someones house the other day, I was tired, and I wanted to go home, I finally managed to get everyone in the car, and was just starting the engine up, when my wife sneezed. We were not allowed to leave before we had all eaten something sweet to counter the sneeze. This is ritual, this is superstition, crossing fingers, touching wood, blessing cars, I would go as far as to say that paying a Bhai to do an Akhand Path, for a new house, is also bordering on ritual, if you feel that strongly, do it yourself with your family, rather than making it happen with your money, so you can reap the blessing but not actually have to do anything other than sit back and enjoy all the balleh balleh. 

I spent most of the night thinking about any ritual that has entered my life, I am quite a creature of habit, but habit is not ritual, every morning I do the same thing, I open the shop at 7am, I sit down, and eat a cheese sandwich and read 'the sun' whilst browsing this site. Then I eat a twix, and gulp down a cold can of relentless, write a few posts, and then get on with building computers. This is not a ritual, I get a fantastic amount of pleasure from this, so what makes it different to say lighting a candle during prayers, nothing, we do these things because they bring us pleasure, because it is the icing on the cake, but what makes it different to a 10 minute delay thanks to a sneeze, fear, fear that we are not appeasing spirits, or gods, or demons, ghosts, fear that if we do not do certain things, then bad things will happen to us, now this is the sort of ritual that I think we are all against , clearly there are habits, which can be pleasurable, and ritual, which is pointless, it is these rituals borne of fear that need to be eradicated


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

> It does not mean she is to twirling around in the room or fainting


 
Dear Sinner Ji

That made me laugh out loud and people stare at me!

Thanks very much

:grinningsingh:


----------



## Harry Haller (Oct 5, 2011)

people are always laughing out loud and staring at me, you get used to it...............


----------



## Ishna (Oct 5, 2011)

I'm terribly sorry to have given the impression that I pray with candles!  I was trying to say it was difficult for me to go from a religion where I had an altar and when I prayed, I would interact with items on my altar, to Sikhi where all I had to do was sit down and read/sing/contemplate the shabad.  I only lit a candle once, 4 years ago, and didn't feel the need to do it again.  The actions I perform now are highly personal to me and I do it as an expression of love when the mood strikes me, I do not feel the need to do it every time, in fact I stopped when I felt thoughts like 'oohh, I didn't do xyz, whoops' because that is the line for me, I do my 'rituals' on my terms to benefit me and not because I have to.

A personal confession:  from the age of 8 until around 20 I suffered with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.  For those who don't know, OCD involves a recurring thought, usually a nasty thought (the obsession), followed by an intense feeling of doom and gloom (the compulsion), which doesn't go away until you perform whatever it is the compulsion drives you to do to negate the nasty thought.

In my particular case most of my obsessions/compulsions revolved around *fear *and *superstition*.  If I didn't do xyz, something bad would happen.  As mentioned above, I began to feel that same inner pressure when I wouldn't do my little paath rituals.  Warning bells, neon lights, smoke alarms, military police, all went off in my mind when that started to happen recently!  And I put an end to it quick smart.

So I like to think I know a little bit about rituals.

I thank Guruji from the bottom of my tiny little heart that I was never part of a religion that demanded rituals from childhood.  That's like pre-programmed OCD and I can appreciate how hard that hold is to break later in life.  And people with OCD KNOW they're being irrational, they KNOW their thoughts are stupid and there is no logic or truth in them, but the FEELING you get inside your body is so strong and won't let go.  It feels like the world will END if you don't do whatever it is you've gotta do.  People raised with it may have no idea that there is no truth in their superstitions.  Just the obsession and the compulsion for them.  At least some people with OCD know their fears aren't usually founded in reality.

I am so immensely thankful to Guruji, for my clinical exposure to Sikhi without the (sorry guys) Indian community, and for the Guru releasing me of the fear and anxiety of worrying about that which I really have no control over.  

So THAT is the kind of ritual we should be avoiding, strictly.  Any kind of compulsion to perform ardaas or rituals to ward off bad things is STUPID and cruel as everything will happen according to hukam anyway.  We should pray to be content with hukam.

So, in summary, a ritual that does not have strings attached is a nice thing.  A ritual with compulsion attached is insidious, unnecessary and psychologically dangerous.

And I share Seeker3k's concern that these practice are sometimes seen within Sikhi (they are not part of Sikhi in any way but do creep in from VARIOUS sources).  They must not be passed on as part of Sikhi!  (they should not be passed on at all.)  I feel sorry for the people who feel so superstitious that they need these things to feel safe and content in their world.


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

> 2 biggest useless rituals that bother me and people like me. It is the pictures of gurus. These are face pictures they are not any gurus pictures. Now some is going to condemn me for this too when they knows very well these pictures are not real. I will become bad evil man here.


 
I would suggest it is not the picture but what you do with it. I purchased a made to order painting of Guru Nanak Ji, with Bhai Bala Ji and Bhai Mardana Ji and it has pride of place in my dining room and in my house

I also have a gold leaf print of Krishna doing a dance and a print of Dali's "Christ of St. John of the Cross"  I also have a couple of Buddha head sculptures including one in my car

I do not worship/address either

I just like religious art


----------



## Seeker9 (Oct 5, 2011)

> And I share Seeker3k's concern that these practice are sometimes seen within Sikhi (they are not part of Sikhi in any way but do creep in from VARIOUS sources). They must not be passed on as part of Sikhi! (they should not be passed on at all.) I feel sorry for the people who feel so superstitious that they need these things to feel safe and content in their world


 
Dear Ishna Ji

Thanks for your candour and very well said

Sums up my view perfectly


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Oct 5, 2011)

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your candor and honesty. You are one wonderful Sikh.


----------



## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2011)

What concerns me is the idea that "Sikhs" as some undifferentiated blob of 25 million are engaging in practices that are not "Sikh."   have already called attention to this: that some of us confuse what some Sikhs say or believe or do with what all "Sikhs say, believe, do." It simply is an unfair generalization, a form of stereotyping. Any object be it a kara or a picture of Guru Nanak, any gesture be it mata tek or rising up in ardaas, can be turned into a form of idolatry, or ritual practice. Everything depends on what is in the mind of the person involved. What I am saying is not rocket science.  Worship in and of itself is not idolatry or ritual. All depends again on the intentions of persons involved. So discussion can only be frustrating if various members have to apologize for, or explain why,  they do what they do, over and over again. 


No one should have to justify their actions. It is important to avoid sensationalizing an issue.  We are here to discuss an issue. And discussion of issues is frustrated when stereotypes rule. Should be no secret to any of us that there are many religious paths that discourage idolatry and meaningless ritual; yet many adherents engage in idol worship and meaningless ritual nonetheless. This is true in Christianity, and even in Islam, though both religions reject worship of idols. Let's try to avoid the idea that  "Sikhs" are off base because "Sikhs worship idolatrously, or worship at all,  etc etc." "Some Sikhs" are off base. Not all Sikhs.


----------



## Chinu (Nov 11, 2011)

*Personal Understanding*


seeker3k said:


> *What is worship?*



*To love.*



seeker3k said:


> *What is idol worship?*


*To love - their love.*



seeker3k said:


> *What is not worship?*


*Not to love.* 



seeker3k said:


> *What is not idol worship?*


*Not to love - their love*

*"Satshriakal"*


----------

