# What Will The Panj Pyare Tell You During Khande Di Pahul?



## Ishna (Jun 10, 2013)

Gurufateh

Section Six Article XXIV of the SGPC Sikh Rehat Maryada contains instructions for conducting the Khande Di Pahul (Khalsa initiation ceremony). Items P and Q detail the instructions the Panj Pyare are to give to the new Khalsa:



> [SIZE=-1]*p. *After this, one from amongst the five beloved ones should explain to the initiates the discipline of the order : *** Today you are reborn in the true Guru's household, ending the cycle of migration, and joined the Khalsa Panth (order). *Your spiritual father is now Guru Gobind Singh and spiritual mother, Mata Sahib Kaur. *Your place of birth is Kesgarh Sahib and your native place is Anandpur Sahib. You, being the sons of one father, are, inter-se yourselves and other baptised Sikhs, spiritual brothers. You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour. You are supposed to know Gurmukhi (Punjabi alphabet). (If you do not, you must learn it). And recite, or listen in to the recitation of, the under mentioned scriptural compositions, the daily repetition of which is ordained, every day1) The Japuji Sahib, (2) The Jaap Sahib, (3) The Ten Sawayyas (Quartrains), beginning "sarawag sudh", (4) The Sodar Rahiras and the Sohila. Besides, you should read from or listen in to the recitation from the Guru Granth Sahib . Have, on your person, all the time, the five K's :[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=-1]I. The Keshas (unshorn hair), [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]II. The Kirpan {sheathed sword} (The length of the sword to be worn is not prescribed., [/SIZE]
> ...


 
Do the Panj Pyare have authority to change these instructions?

I've read on other forums that people say 'the Panj Pyare told me I can't eat eggs' (this is an example only, *please* don't start talking about eggs); or 'the Panj Pyare told me the daily banis are XYZ': does this actually happen?

Are the same instructions given regardless of the Gurdwara someone attends? For instance, the AKJ don't have their own written maryada (as far as I'm aware), but they have keski as kakar instead of kesh, so do they change the above instructions to suit?

How can one be sure what they're committing to, especially if the amrit sanchar is conducted in a language which the new Khalsa can't understand?

Many thanks.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 10, 2013)

I think things can only be added to the Maryada. But not taken out or changed.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 10, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I think things can only be added to the Maryada. But not taken out or changed.




If one keeps "adding" WATER to MILK/Lassee...we all know what happens..right...Maryada is pure MILK..adding water makes it watery..Kachi lassee !!


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2013)

ishna ji

AKJ do have a separate maryada - it contains uniquely more than keski.

It is not unusual for various sects within Sikhi to have a maryada unique unto its own group.

There is no guarantee that a candidate for khande de pahul will understand and know what is going on. Even some native speakers of Punjabi hear but don't understand what is going on. Often within some sects and even some sangats there is an aggressive push to "baptize" first and learn later by everyone involved. Going in with one's eyes open, surely one would have read and studied enough to be able to follow the proceedings even without fluent Punjabi

The SRM cannot be amended by the panj pyaare - that would involve a process similar to the one that led to its inception in the first place - global involvement and adoption as a formal document. The SRM is a formal document, and has legal weight within India.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 10, 2013)

> 2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;


 
practically impossible, given most eateries now use halal



> You must not associate with a Sikh who had uncut hair earlier and has cut it


 
Seems dear brother Palaingthaji had a point



> You must tender one tenth (Daswand) of your earnings to the Guru


 

*.*


> The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott:





> [SIZE=-1]1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants[/SIZE]




don't seem of these people get a guided tour these days?



> One who dyes his beard;


 


> One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline.


 
my question is the above pure maryada or has it already been had at?


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2013)

Let's go back to ground zero.

The panj pyaare do NOT have the authority to change the instructions... The reason for SRM was to determine a commonly agreed upon set of practices that most, barring members of kathas like AKJ, could abide by. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree as individuals on specific elements within the SRM... It is what it is... We are free to ask for explanations. We are free to understand or put understanding on the back burner. We are free to conform.... We are free to disagree and free to deviate... We are not free to renegotiate based on our intuitive evaluation of whether it makes sense to us.  If we decide freely to deviate, we cannot have our cake and eat it too: that is, do as we please and blame the SRM for getting in the way. Sikhi is a path of freedom and enlightened choice. Just like everything else in life, we make a choice and understand its consequences.


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## Ishna (Jun 10, 2013)

The other day I was at Gurdwara, talking like an excited chipmunk on crack to the first gori convert I've ever had the pleasure of meeting face-to-face.

Gyaniji overheard us talking about amrit and things - she's going to India soon and will participate in amrit sanchar at Harmandir Sahib.  I said I was still thinking about it all, that I felt I wasn't quite ready, and Gyaniji said:  "Sorry about the words in English, but people who say they're 'not ready' yet, it's bullsh*t, they should just do it, they won't know what the dish of Sikhi tastes like without actually picking the food up with their hand and eating it."  (we were at langar, he made use of his plate for added effect)

I looked up amrit sanchars in my country and found one happening very soon, but I think the Gurdwara is part of AKJ.  I've asked them by email what their sanchar contains - is it the same as the SGPC one - and they haven't gotten back to me just yet.

The issue I see, is participating in an amrit sanchar that contains extra instructions above what the SRM specifies.  Isn't it only common sense to ask first what you're signing up for before signing on the sugar-water dotted line?

Am I out of line with this question?

You can't really argue with people who have received amrit sanchar whose Panj Pyare told them not to eat any meat at all, not to eat eggs, and to recite Baa Baa Black Sheep as part of their daily nitnem.  That's what they've signed up to.

Is it a rude question to ask of the Gurdwara offering amrit sanchar?

Many thanks again.


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2013)

ishna ji

Here are my reactions, kind of on the random side, because you are not really asking about theological issues. Your questions make a lot of sense to me on the playing field of every day life and the every day people we encounter in many different places. 

With all due respect to the Gyani ji, I do not know what he is talking about. He, forgive me, sounds like someone who believes he is onto something deep. If you asked him to spell it out for you he might not want to do that using the oft-quoted tuks that warn us that thinking leads to doubt and a life of cynicism. In his world the best thing is for everyone to be on the same wave length. Take amrit and figure it out later. You can't go wrong because the nadar will guide you to the right conclusions. My mother thinks like this. All you have to do is look around to find amritdhari who probably never bumped into nadar eye shut or eyes open, and have not come to the "right" conclusions, per the philosophy of Guru Nanak, just based on their values and behavior alone. 

That does not mean that either Gyani ji or amritdhari as a group are hypocrites. I only means that they are fallible humans like all of us. Gyani's way works for Gyani ji. Not our SPN Gyani ji!!!!!  I don't think it will work for you, so just be polite and give him the benefit of believing in his own way. Otherwise, things just become hurtful. He only wants to share his enthusiasm with you.

AKJ conducts amrit sanchar according to published schedules at various gurdwaras in various locations. Usually there is a web site that lists when amrit sanchar will be offered at Gurdwara xxx in yyytown. AKJ does seem to concur - take khande de pahul first and worry about the technicalities later. There will be many mentors to guide you and make sure you do not fall off the rehat. AKJ is a group experience 24/7/365.  Is that how you think you should proceed? If Yes, then why not just do it? If No, you have your answer. 

Often it puzzles me why you doubt your own judgement. Those who could not abide by the SRM at its birth, left the conversation and formed their own jathas accordingly. They wrote their own rehats. Master Tara Singh is a famous example of that. So there is no reason to accept add-ons unless they appeal to you. 

There is one personal story I would like to relate in connection with the total context of your question but my fingers hurt. So it will have to wait until later.


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## Ishna (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks adminji. 

Please don't get me wrong, I think Gyaniji at the Gurdwara I attend generally has the right sort of ideas. I think he might get the impression, rightly, that I need a bit of a shove to get moving. Surely he was sharing his enthusiasm, "it's his job".   He's seen me attending Gurdwara pretty regularly for the last two years, he knows I take Sikhi very seriously (and may have poked fun at it a couple of times).

Personally I don't want to join a jatha, I'm aligned with the SGPC SRM, plain and simple, which is why I'm paranoid about avoiding an amrit sanchar that is over and above that basic charter. In my own enthusiasm I don't want to rush into something only to discover later that I've committed to something else. I think you understand.

I've got my answer now from this thread - that although there is standard wording, other groups may add to the conditions.

Solution: Don't look outside my state for amrit sanchar. Instead, pester my local Gyaniji to arrange a sanchar at our Gurdwara. That'll teach him! haha


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Solution: Don't look outside my state for amrit sanchar. Instead, pester my local Gyaniji to arrange a sanchar at our Gurdwara. That'll teach him! haha



Gyani ji sounds like a very sincere person.

:motherlove:  Now if you pester your Gyani ji he just might follow through and arrange khande de pahul. Then the ball is in your court.  :japosatnamwaheguru: You are the only one who can decide what to do next.


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## linzer (Jun 11, 2013)

_practically impossible, given most eateries now use halal_

Just order the pork chops.eacesignkaur:


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