# Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc



## Randip Singh (Jul 29, 2008)

..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc

Hi all ,

There seems to be a flurry of threads that seem to surrounding this issue. I am interested in why people are so concerened about proving Sikhism is a branch of Hinduism?

I have heard arguments from Islamists that Sikhism is a corrupted form of Islam.

In another book I read (about a Sikh who became a Christian), the book is at pains to describe Sikhism as an offshoot of Christianity?

I want to understand why this argument rears its head every now and then? Why do people need to prove Hinduism is Sikhism and vice-versa?


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## dalsingh (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

I think a part of the issue is attempts by some to absorb Sikhi into Hinduism's pantheon. This has political dimensions.


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## spnadmin (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

I am glad this is in Hard Talk, and am planning to post here too. I am getting private messages from Gursikhs asking for broad and balanced coverage of this topic.


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## kds1980 (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

The main problem is Hinduism itself don't have any defination.Any person can himself claim himself as hindu.even hindu's who don't beleive in god claim themselves as hindu atheists.so this is the biggest problem while comparing hinduism with sikhism


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

sikhism is completely different from any religion

sikhi is same as any other concept


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> _"The main problem is Hinduism itself don't have any defination.Any person can himself claim himself as hindu.even hindu's who don't beleive in god claim themselves as hindu atheists.so this is the biggest problem while comparing hinduism with Sikhism."_


Hinduism doesn't have a problem recognizing or defining itself.  

Hinduism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only anti-Hindu prejudices keep defining it as something altogether insidious, corrupt and hostile and undesirable.  It's just a culture with some very ancient and meaningful spiritual philosophies.  People keep describing politicians, corrupted fake babas, spies and anti-communal elements as "Hindu."  Is that really necessary?  Should the world define the worst behavior of Sikhs as "Sikhism?"  The majority of the worlds religions share some part of the original ancient teachings, because Hinduism is one of the mother religions of the world.  Why does everyone keep getting bent out of shape and trying to deny that?  Take the best and leave the rest and give respect for what is beautiful.  Isn't that tolerance the essence of Gurbani?

Everyone is so hung up on identities.  And nothing of this earth or these identities is permanent.  Everything is passing away, why cling to meaningless outward forms anyway?  The spiritual essence is eternal truth.  It can't pass away.  The written words can pass, but the light of truth behind them is eternal.  No one can lay claim and own it.  It isn't a matter of any individual community's pride.  Truth is truth.  It is the timeless essence of the God.  And the Light of God's truth belongs to everyone, to all God's children in the whole world.  Sectarian prejudices are the death of peace.  A million wars are in these hatreds and divisions.  The Light of truth flows in the spaces between thoughts and words expressed in genuinely spritual concepts and the harmony between people.  Let's bless that harmony.  People who draw dividing lines only create conflicts and the greed of political jostling for self-importance, prominance and power.  To have, they take the beauty from others and define it as "their own."

Please, let's not do this with spirituality of Sikhism.  It's contrary to the Guru's teachings to have a concept of independant nationhood as if Sikhs would inherit a legacy of owning the expensive booty at the expense of everyone else.  The nationhood of the Khalsa Raj is destined to be one of service and sacrifice.  There will be no self-enrichment of petty kings and dictators.  In the Sat Yug it will be the leadership of authentic, inclusive and all embracing spirituality that puts the other guy first.  So let's dispense with these materialistic notions of "Sikh nationhood."  Khalsa Raj will not belong to the Sikhs.  They will belong to the whole world, and even universes upon universes, because they will establish Dharmic harmony.  That is the authentic teaching about "Sikh nationhood."  The Lord Himself shall rule.  And the holy people will establish justice and equality.  That is the meaning of Khalsa Raj.




On point A:
Are Sikhs as a community largely descended from the culture and people of the Indus Valley?

And the answer is, yes.  Sikhs are not a different culture, a superior Aryan race, a separate nationhood.  All that colonial baloney should have died with British ownership of India.  While acknowledging Hindu society largely intermarried and gave eldest sons to be raised as Sikhs, you still hear people talking about how Sikhs come from Aryan Pathans and Scythians and look scornfully down on Indic people.  That is so shamefully filled with self-hatred.  The French colonials did this exact same thing with Rwandan tribals, fostering a self-hatred and racist/cultural divide so complete it led to genocide.  These petty distinctions are colonial attitudes.  It has nothing to do with spirituality, which is why saints of every religion see the universal One truth in the highest teachings of every faith, irrespective of superficial outer differences.  

But from a realistic viewpoint, when categorizing Sikhism as a separate religion, a number of untruths arise.  First, the independance creates discord, just as we see inflamatory and insulting comments degrading the value and spiritual validity of the Hindu faith.  Second, we see a notorious judgmentalism creep in where people adopt positively abusive attitudes toward Hindu's in general.  And third, this separatism promotes a fundamental schism between Hindu's and Sikhs as pertains to political objectives, so in some issues the communities are at each others throats.  

When you talk of voter blocs, it's precisely this attitude, "We're going to vote as Sikhs, for Sikh issues and pro-Sikh politicians" which is so undermining the best interests of the Punjab as a whole.  One of the most shameful things is you have people shouting for independant Khalistan, and spending money to propagate this, make offices where they can become chairman of this and that.  And Vandana Shiva, a Hindu, is the one actually going around trying to create financial relief programs to help the farmer suicide crisis.  So what kind of Khalistan would we even have, if the leadership doesn't even care about the farmers?  If the leadership doesn't even care about supporting the orphans of their own militants?  It's so fake it has to be addressed.  These attitudes are poison.  No truth is in them.



On point B:
Are Sikh teachings related enough to Vedanta to be considered part of Dharmic religion?

And the answer is, yes.  Sikhism doesn't have enough points of departure or any new ideology which would even conflict with the fundamental Vedic teachings and Puranic clarifications regarding definitions of God, creation, salvation, purpose of life, method of attaining purification through japping Naam Gurmantra, Guru-Shishya relationship necessary for liberation etc.  Sikhism remains a completely Indic spiritual philosphy, recognized by Abrahamic religions immediately by the characteristics commonly seen as "Hindu:" reincarnation, transmigration, moksha, samadhi, yoga, devas, avataars, pantheistic all-pervading Oneness.

Despite the many sectarian differences within Hinduism, and they are at times profound, there remains an overiding, definable spiritual theme in Dharmic belief systems.  And that is what they share from Vedanta, all the above themes found within Sikh theology are Vedic.  They are learned philosophies from the Vedas.  And that is how the religions and scholars of the world will define you, regardless of how you define yourselves, because they will have that recognition, despite denials, of what is fundamentally a Dharmically rooted faith.  So you can call yourselves whatever you like, but these facts will not change.  And then it just becomes a matter of questioning self-delusion.


> _The Sanskrit term Dharma (help·info) (Devanāgarī: धर्म) (Pali: Dhamma) is an Indian spiritual or religious term, that means one's righteous duty, or any virtuous path in the common sense of the term. Contextually, it implies one's religion, in Indian languages. Throughout Indian philosophy, Dharma is present as a central concept, that is used in order to explain the "higher truth" or ultimate reality of the universe.
> 
> The word 'dharma' literally translates as 'that which upholds or supports' (from the root, Dhr, - to hold), and is generally translated into English as 'law'. But throughout the history of Indian philosophy, it has governed ideas about the proper conduct of living - ideas that are upheld by the laws of the universe.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_


The Dharmic teachings of how to obtain righteousness, and what is the reality of the universe, within Gurbani are _*Vedantic*._



On point C:
Did Sikhism distinguish itself as separate community, by helping the Hindu community when it was in distress?

And the answer is, no.  It is completely incredible that the Sikhs, as a standing Army, considered the Hindu villagers from their native villages, as "foreigners," as altogether different from themselves.  Most especially, since the overwhelming majority of Sikhs were born in Hindu families, and this includes the families of the Gurus.  And during time of crisis, war, massacre, rape and torture, the Sikhs did not decide to be brave and noble and lay down their lives to protect these "corrupted," "hypocritical," and "deluded" people and rescue their "fake" idol-worshipping religion.  That's just not even tenable as a thesis statement.  It sounds as if the Moghals have been reborn as modern Sikhs when you find attitudes like these towards Hindus.  And these attitudes and comments are common enough to warrant concern for the spiritual jeevan of the Sikh community.  What kind of self-definition is this, which defines Sikhism in terms of "not being as bad as the Hindu's are?"  What the Sikhs heard and felt within their being, was women and children and old people crying under terrible oppression.  And their hearts opened up.  They related to their own "family members" undergoing hardships of military occupation.  This is what they were fighting and dying for as Khalsa.  The whole purpose of a spiritual Army was to protect Dharam, to protect righteousness, to defend the innocent from harm, to be willing to die for justice.  Because the Sikh Guruji heard the Hindu people crying, He lifted His sword against injustice, no matter the cost.  Do you really think the Sikh Guruji who taught that "I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu" did not understand that the human soul has no parentage, no religion?

And so people say, "I am not a Hindu, I am a Sikh."  But Guruji didn't say, "I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu, I am a Sikh!"  Because a Guru is not the disciple, and Sikh means disciple.  So if Guruji is not a Hindu in a way to divide people, why are Sikhs trying to be Sikh identity, in a way to divide people?  It's totally contrary to what Guruji said.

What I find, is when people say they are not a Hindu, they are a Sikh, it means something different from this tuuk of Gurbani.  It means, "I look down on Hindu India and distance myself from what I disrespect."  And that kind of attitude, which despite denials, is VERY prevalent, is actually filled with self-loathing.  Because culturally, racially, even within spiritual philosophy, how different are Sikhs from Hindus?  And the answer is "not very different."  Diffferences have been exaggerated.  But they remain unbelievable.

Just as Gurbani often has tuuks which seem to say the opposite thing, but are reflections of different principles and no true contradiction at all, so there exists historical commentary such as Guru Nanak Dev Ji, born in a Hindu family and being a Guru traveling to Mecca and being warned not to pass there because the Moghals kill Hindus.   And we hear Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji to Aurengzeb, when given the choice to convert to Islam or die, saying:


utra bhandyo dharma hum Hindu | aati priya ko kim kare nikandu ||
lok parlok ubhay sukh dani | aanan paayiyat yahi samaani ||
mati maleen moorakh mati jey-yi | isko tyagey paamar soi ||
Hindu dharma rakhey jag mahi | tumre karey vinsai yeh nahi ||

"My answer is that I am a Hindu and I love Hindu Dharma. 
How can anybody destroy it? It provides happiness both in this world as
well as in the other world. There is no other religion like it. Only a
deranged person or a fool would leave it to become vile. Hindu dharma
would remain in the world for ever. It is not going to be destroyed by
your efforts."​
Even if you pick apart the word "Hindu" and remove it from your minds and consciousness, banish it from your communities with a sigh of relief.  You will all still remain the spiritual sons and daughters of a beautiful and unique heritage rooted in the richness of the people of the Indus Valley.  So call yourselves a separate "nation," a separate "people," and a "separate "religion" if you like.  Just don't be dismayed if other people within Sikhism view it differently.  Try not to get so carried away with being different that you lose what was most precious about Sikh Satguruji in all His wonderful forms, and that is the cherishing of humanity, and willingness to embrace as spiritual equals, even the Muslims who were horrifically oppressing Hindustan.

Don't forget to be a brother and a sister, not just among yourselves, but of the whole world.


~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## dalbirk (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Hinduism doesn't have a problem recognizing or defining itself.
> 
> Hinduism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


 

Dear Harjas Ji ,
WJKK WJKF 
Have u ever pondered why & how Buddhism was strangulated out of India by Adi Shankracharya & his followers in 8th & 9th century , despite Buddhism being followed by 80% of Indian population in 5th , 6th & 7th century AD . Another thing I wish to point out is during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time Sikh population in Punjab had reached ONE CRORE ( Ten Million ) reduced to 18,00,000 ( 1.8 Million ) in 1861 census which ultimately increased to 4.5 Million in 1941 census mainly due to the efforts of favourite whipping boy , THE SINGH SABHA MOVEMENT . Are we not hastening our own demise by trying to prove Sikhism out & out as a sect of Hinduism ? Is history repeating itself ? I may tell u I'm living in India & I don't think Khalistan is a good idea due to lack of practicability , rather I'm all for propagating Sikhism to each & every of 800 Million Hindus in India , which if happens will automatically change India's character to a Khalistan one . 
    Raaj Karega Khalsa , Aaki Rahe na Koi .
Regards , 
Dalbir Singh


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## singhbj (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

*How is Sikhee different ? *

Source: <.Gupt Abhiyaas.>: THIS WEBSITE IS UPDATED EVERY MONDAY

The only way in which Daas can prove how Sikhee is different is to compare it with other faiths through divine Baanee (teachings from Guru Granth Sahib). Daas does not mean to offend or slander any religion, but will also not hesitate in speaking the truth.

ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਧੁਰਿ ਬਖਸ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੬॥(ang 62)
kuram milai such paaeeai dhur bukhus n maettai koe
Receiving His Grace, we obtain Truth. No one can erase His Primal Blessing.

Islam

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ: ੧ ॥(Ang 140)
shalok mehlaa 1.Shalok, First Mehl:

ਮਿਹਰ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਦਕੁ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
mihar maseet sidak muslaa hak halaal kuraan.
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.

ਸਰਮ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਰੋਜਾ ਹੋਹੁ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ॥
saram sunat seel rojaa hohu musalmaan.
Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.

ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਬਾ ਸਚੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਕਲਮਾ ਕਰਮ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥
karNee kaabaa sach peer kalmaa karam nivaaj.
Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant.

ਤਸਬੀ ਸਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਖੈ ਲਾਜ ॥੧॥
tasbee saa tis bhaavsee naanak rakhai laaj. 1
Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. 1

Guru Nanak Dev Jee has made it crystal clear in this Shabad to become a pure Muslim or a pure minded being; virtuous living is of highly importance.

ਮ: ੧ ॥(Ang 141)
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

ਪੰਜਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਵਖਤ ਪੰਜਿ ਪੰਜਾ ਪੰਜੇ ਨਾਉ ॥
panj nivaajaa vakhat panj panjaa panje naa-o.
There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਹਲਾਲ ਦੁਇ ਤੀਜਾ ਖੈਰ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
pehilaa sach halaal du-e teejaa khair khudaa-e.
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.

ਚਉਥੀ ਨੀਅਤਿ ਰਾਸਿ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਜਵੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਨਾਇ ॥
chauthee nee-at raas man panjvee sifat sanaa-e.
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.

ਕਰਣੀ ਕਲਮਾ ਆਖਿ ਕੈ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਸਦਾਇ ॥
karnee kalmaa aakh kai taa musalmaaN sadaa-e.
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇਤੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੩॥
naanak jete kooRi-aar kooRai kooRee paa-e. 3
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. 3

Guru Sahib has made it apparent in this Shabad that just by praying 5 times a day one does not become a good Muslim, one has to praise the Lord with every breath.

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
musalmaan kahaavaN mushkal jaa ho-e taa musalmaaN kahaavai.
It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.

Guru Sahib says in this Shabad one has to put away the delusions of life and death, submit to Gods will, rid selfishness and be mercyful to all beings; Guru Jee says it is difficult to become a true Muslim - a disciple of Prophet Mohammeds faith.

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥(Ang 477) 
sakat sanehu kar sunat karee-ai mai na bad-ugaa bhaa-ee.
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
jau re khudaa-e mohi turak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaa-ee. 2
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. 2

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
sunat kee-e turak je ho-igaa aurat kaa ki-aa karee-ai.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

This shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Jee, a Muslim who meditated on the Mantra Raam. He says I teach both Hindus and Muslims, I meditate with every breath.

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਸੋਈ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥(Ang 662)
musalmaa so-ee mal khovai.
One who cleanses himself of impurity is a Muslim.

Guru Sahib has made it quite clear the only way to become a true Muslim is to purify ones mind through the praises of the Lord 24 hours a day. Guru Sahib has written extensively about the Hindus and Muslims failing in their practice, it is difficult to express. Muslims say all non-Muslims are classed as Kaafirs (non-believers) and we have no right to live unless we convert to Islam.

ਢੂੰਡੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਸਭ ਪੀਰ ਪੈਕੰਬਰ ਕਉਮਿ ਕਤੇਲੇ॥(Bhai Gurdas ji's - Vaar 1, PauRee 26)
dhoondde hindoo turak sabh peer paikambar koum katele
All the sects, pirs, paigambars of the Hindus and Muslims were seen (by Baba Nanak).

Bhai Gurdaas Jee says all the holy men of Hindus and Muslims threw away their teachings of God through their ego. There is no equality; Muslim women keep themselves covered where as men don’t, men are allowed 4 wives, women just 1 husband, Muslims do good for 1 month during fast, for the rest of the year they are slaves to their minds desires. Women are not allowed in mosque for prayer (Muslim holy place of worship). There are many more negatives, but there is no need to continue so Daas will stop here.

Hinduism

Hindus believe in many rituals, for example, Rakhree, wearing threads around their bodys to class themselves higher than others (Janeoo), they believe in high and low castes, idol worship - God cannot be seen through a stone he is only found from within through devotional worship of Simran (meditation). They believe in more than one God, Gods and goddesses. There are so many flaws in these religions, Daas feels bad in going through so many negative points of each religion.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਆ ਟਿਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਤਗੁ ॥੧॥(ang 467)
naanak sache naam bin ki-aa tikaa ki-aa tag. 1
O Nanak, without the True Name, of what use is the frontal mark of the Hindus, or their sacred thread? 1

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥(ang 874)
hindoo anHaa turkoo kaaNaa.
The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.

Most of the Shabads in Guru Granth Sahib Jee Guru Jee talks about Muslims and Hindus together, on how they should improve their practices. In this Shabad Bhagat Naamdayv, a Hindu Bhagat is saying a Hindu has no spiritual wisdom and a Muslim has realized a little bit, then he says Naamdayv knows more as he meditates on the Lord.

ਮ: ੧ ॥(Ang 951)
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਆਵੈ ॥
hindoo kai ghar hindoo aavai.
The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu.

ਸੂਤੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਪੜਿ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
soot jane-oo paR gal paavai.
He puts the sacred thread around his neck and reads the scriptures.

ਸੂਤੁ ਪਾਇ ਕਰੇ ਬੁਰਿਆਈ ॥
soot paa-e kare buri-aa-ee.
He puts on the thread, but does evil deeds.

ਨਾਤਾ ਧੋਤਾ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
naataa Dhotaa thaa-e na paa-ee.
His cleansings and washings will not be approved.

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
musalmaan kare vaddi-aa-ee.
The Muslim glorifies his own faith.

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰੈ ਕੋ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
vin gur peerai ko thaa-e na paa-ee.
Without the Guru or a spiritual teacher, no one is accepted.

ਰਾਹੁ ਦਸਾਇ ਓਥੈ ਕੋ ਜਾਇ ॥
raahu dasaa-e othai ko jaa-e.
They may be shown the way, but only a few go there.

ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
karNee baajhahu bhisat na paa-e.
Without the karma of good actions, heaven is not attained.

ਜੋਗੀ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਦਸਾਈ ॥
jogee kai ghar jugat dasaa-ee.
The Way of Yoga is demonstrated in the Yogi's monastery.

ਤਿਤੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕਨਿ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਈ ॥
{censored} kaaraN kan mundraa paa-ee.
They wear ear-rings to show the way.

ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਇ ਫਿਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
mundraa paa-e firai sansaar.
Wearing ear-rings, they wander around the world.

ਜਿਥੈ ਕਿਥੈ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
jithai kithai sirjaNhaar.
The Creator Lord is everywhere.

ਜੇਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਤੇਤੇ ਵਾਟਾਊ ॥
jete jee-a tete vaattaa-oo.
There are as many travellers as there are beings.

ਚੀਰੀ ਆਈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਕਾਊ ॥
cheeree aa-ee dhil na kaa-oo.
When one's death warrant is issued, there is no delay.

ਏਥੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਸਿਞਾਣੈ ॥
eithai jaaNai so jaa-e sinjaaNai.
One who knows the Lord here, realizes Him there as well.

ਹੋਰੁ ਫਕੜੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੈ ॥
hor fakaR hindoo musalmaaNai.
Others, whether Hindu or Muslim, are just babbling.

ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
sabhnaa kaa dar lekhaa ho-e.
Everyone's account is read in the Court of the Lord;

ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
karNee baajhahu tarai na ko-e.
without the karma of good actions, no one crosses over.

ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
sacho sach vakhaaNai ko-e.
One who speaks the True Name of the True Lord,

ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗੈ ਪੁਛ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
naanak agai puchh na ho-e. 2
O Nanak, is not called to account hereafter. 2

Daas has cut this Shabad short as it is quite a long Shabad.


Bhagat Kabeer Jee

ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥(Ang 1158)
hamraa jhagraa rahaa na ko-oo.
I have no quarrel with anyone.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
panddit mulaa(n) chhaade do-oo. 1 rahaa-o.
I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. 1Pause

ਬੁਨਿ ਬੁਨਿ ਆਪ ਆਪੁ ਪਹਿਰਾਵਉ ॥
bun bun aap aap pehiraavau.
I weave and weave, and wear what I weave.

ਜਹ ਨਹੀ ਆਪੁ ਤਹਾ ਹੋਇ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੨॥
jeh nehee aap tehaa ho-e gaavau. 2
Where egotism does not exist, there I sing God's Praises. 2

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥
panddit mulaa(n) jo likh dee-aa.
Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written,

ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥
chhaad chale ham kachhoo na lee-aa. 3
I reject; I do not accept any of it. 3

ਰਿਦੈ ਇਖਲਾਸੁ ਨਿਰਖਿ ਲੇ ਮੀਰਾ ॥
ridai ikhlaas nirakh le meeraa.
My heart is pure, and so I have seen the Lord within.

ਆਪੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੪॥੭॥
aap khoj khoj mile kabeeraa. 47
Searching, searching within the self, Kabeer has met the Lord. 47

The Bhramins would not let the shadow of a so called low caste come in to contact with their body. They would take a bath saying they are filthy.

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ ੧ ॥(Ang 471)
shalok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਦਇਆ ਕਪਾਹ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸੂਤੁ ਜਤੁ ਗੰਢੀ ਸਤੁ ਵਟੁ ॥
de-i-aa kapaah santokh soot jat gandhee sat vatt.
Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.

ਏਹੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਹਈ ਤ ਪਾਡੇ ਘਤੁ ॥
eihu jane-oo jee-a kaa ha-ee ta paadde ghat.
This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me.

ਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਤੁਟੈ ਨ ਮਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਜਲੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
naa eihu tuttai na mal lagai naa eihu jalai na jaa-e.
It does not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost.

ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਮਾਣਸ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਗਲਿ ਚਲੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
Dhan so maaNas naankaa jo gal chale paa-e.
Blessed are those mortal beings, O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks.

ਚਉਕੜਿ ਮੁਲਿ ਅਣਾਇਆ ਬਹਿ ਚਉਕੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
chaukaR mul anaa-i-aa behi chaukai paa-i-aa.
You buy the thread for a few shells, and seated in your enclosure, you put it on.

ਸਿਖਾ ਕੰਨਿ ਚੜਾਈਆ ਗੁਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਥਿਆ ॥
sikhaa kann chaRaa-ee-aa gur braahmaN thi-aa.
Whispering instructions into others' ears, the Brahmin becomes a guru.

ਓਹੁ ਮੁਆ ਓਹੁ ਝੜਿ ਪਇਆ ਵੇਤਗਾ ਗਇਆ ॥੧॥
ohu mu-aa ohu jhaR pa-i-aa vetgaa ge-i-aa. 1
But he dies, and the sacred thread falls away, and the soul departs without it. 1

The janeoo thread is put around the neck of a Hindu Bhramin stating he is high class and well versed in the Hindu scriptures. Guru Nanak Dev Jee refused to wear this thread when the Bhramins come to put it on him as a child, Nanak repeated the Shabad above. Guru Sahib made it quite clear the only way these 2 religions would purify their practice would be to praise the Lord Athe Pehar (24 hours). Both the Hindus and the Muslims tried to claim Guru Nanak was their Peer (saint).

Jains

Jain is a religion in which practices a lot of different forms of meditation and takes virtues like compassion to the extreme penance, they always keep their mouth covered believing bacteria is in the air which has life and if it enters the mouth they would have sinned by killing. They sweep the floor before them sweeping aside any Insects to prevent them from stepping on them.

This is most definately not Gurmat (teachings of the Guru) this is a hinderance in ones practice in attaining the Lord through devotional worship, the other thing is if we are not aware of something it is not a sin, Guru Sahib made us Gristhee (householder life in society) it is difficult to take up these extreme practices in society this is why Guru Sahib took extremism away from Sikhee to teach the world by example by living in it, just like when Guru Nanak went to do parchaar (preach) he wore their robes so they would listen to him, Gods message was sent to liberate the world and not just Sikhs.

ਜੈਨ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਜਮ ਅਤਿ ਸਾਧਨ ॥(Ang 265)
jain maarag sanjam at saaDhan.
you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the Jains and great spiritual disciplines;

ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਕਰਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਕਟਾਵੈ ॥
nimakh nimakh kar sareer kattaavai.
piece by piece, you may cut your body apart;

ਤਉ ਭੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
tau bhee haumai mail na jaavai.
but even so, the filth of your ego shall not depart.

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
har ke naam samsar kachh naahi.
There is nothing equal to the Name of the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
naanak gurmukh naam japat gat paahi. 2
O Nanak, as Gurmukh, chant the Naam, and obtain salvation. 2

ਜਾਪ ਤਾਪ ਭ੍ਰਮਨ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕਰਿ ਉਰਧ ਤਾਪ ਲੈ ਗੈਨ ॥(ang 674)
jaap taap bhraman basuDhaa kar uraDh taap lai gain.
Chanting, deep meditation and penance, wandering over the face of the earth, the performance of austerities with the arms stretched up to the sky -

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਹ ਪਤੀਆਨੋ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਨ ॥੨॥
eh biDh neh patee-aano thaakur jog jugat kar jain. 2
the Lord is not pleased by any of these means, though one may follow the path of Yogis and Jains. 2

Christianity

Guru Sahib talked more about the Eastern religions in his Baanee as they were slightly more spiritual and they were the areas he did his preaching, very little is said in Gurbaanee about Christians. Daas' personal view after talking to a few Christians is that they do not meditate on the Lord so therefore, their mind cannot be purified through the name of the Lord. They believe in virtues but these are a waste of time without Naam as one is only virtuous through self ego. They say Jesus was the Son of God, Guru Sahib says we are all the Sons and Daughters of God and we can become one to one with the Lord, Christians do not believe this, they do not believe in life after death, nobody knows the true teachings of Christianity as the bible has been changed numerous number of times, the women cover their heads in church the men don’t (no equality). Daas believes any faith which does not believe in liberation whilst alive (Jeevan Mukhatee) has weaknesses in its practice.

Buddhism

Buddhism is a beautiful religion created by lord Buddha he was a very rich prince who gave up his wealth for compassion, contentment and spiritual wisdom, it is very similar to Sikhee in the sense that one can be liberated whilst alive, they believe in many forms of meditation and it is a very virtuous religion spiritually, but sorry to say this beautiful faith which Daas himself loves also has a lot of flaws. Guru Sahib has not directly talked much about the Buddhs in his baanee but he has mentioned them along with the Jains, Yogees, Sidhs, etc as very spiritual beings.

Buddhists do not believe in God, they say the mind is another name for God once one purifies the filthy mind one will be liberated. This is totally true but as Daas has mentioned in previous posts, having faith in a supreme being (God) reduces ego quicker rather than saying 'I' have to purify 'MY' mind, this is what we are trying to kill 'THE I'.

ਜਬ ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੁਮ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੁਮ ਹਹੁ ਹਮ ਨਾਹੀ ॥(Ang 339)
jab ham hote tab tum naahee ab tum hahu ham naahee.
When I was, then You were not; now that You are, I am not.

ਅਬ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਖਤ ਮਨੁ ਪਤੀਆਹੀ ॥੧॥
ab ham tum eik bhe-e heh eikai dekhat man patee-aahee. 1
Now, You and I have become one; seeing this, my mind is content. 1

Buddhists shave their hair saying it keeps them simple and it hinders their practice they do not realize all spiritual energy comes from hair (rom), lord Buddha kept his Kes (hair). Women are not allowed to be ordained as Monks, they believe in celibacy; if everyone became a Buddhist what would happen to mankind? We would be extinct.

Buddhists do not earn a living they beg (bhikhsha). In countries like Thailand they are so well respected people offer them money, who would we beg off if we all became Buddhists, they meditate and spend most their time in monasteries, Guru Nanak Dev Jee declined this type of practice as it does nothing to liberate mankind. They worship idols and also believe in many gods and goddesses. Out of the 5 religions Daas has mentioned, Daas has honestly got to say this is a beautiful religion and spiritually have both eyes open.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸਿਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਾਥ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਵੇਸ ॥(ang 7)
kete siDh buDh naath kete kete devee ves.
So many Siddhas and Buddhas, so many Yogic masters. So many goddesses of various kinds.

This Shabad states so many religions including the Buddhs only reached the realm of Gyan khand (spiritual wisdom) this is the 2nd khand out of 5, Dharm khand, Gyan khand, Saram khand, Karam khand and Sach khand where God himself resides in all his glory, this is an article on its own so we wont go in to too much detail.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਤਪੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਬਹੁ ਤੀਰਥ ਭ੍ਰਮਨਾ ॥(Ang 476)
jogee jatee tapee sani-aasee baho teerath bhramanaa.
The Yogis, celibates, penitents and Sannyaasees make pilgrimages to all the sacred places.

ਲੁੰਜਿਤ ਮੁੰਜਿਤ ਮੋਨਿ ਜਟਾਧਰ ਅੰਤਿ ਤਊ ਮਰਨਾ ॥੧॥
luNjit muNjit mon jataaDhar ant ta-oo marnaa. 1
The Jains with shaven heads, the silent ones, the beggars with matted hair - in the end, they all shall die. 1

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਸੇਵੀਅਲੇ ਰਾਮਨਾ ॥
taa te sevee-ale raamnaa.
Meditate, therefore, on the Lord.

How is Sikhee different ?

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥(Ang 308)
satgur kee baaNee sat sat kar jaaNhu gursikhahu, har kartaa aap muhhu kadhaa-e.
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. 

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਮੁਹ ਉਜਲੇ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਭਤੁ ਕਰਾਏ ॥
gursikhaa ke muh ujle kare har pi-aaraa, gur kaa jaikaar sansaar sabhat karaa-e.
The Beloved Lord makes the faces of His GurSikhs radiant; He makes the whole world applaud and acclaim the Guru.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥(ang 304)
satgur kee banee sat saroop hai gurbaanee banee-ai.
The Word of the True Guru's Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਹੁ ਇਉ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੈ ਲੀਨਾ ਹੇ ॥੧੪॥(ang 1027)
satgur kee baaNee sat sat kar maanhu i-o aatam raamai leenaa he. 14
Accept as True, Perfectly True, the Word of the True Guru's Bani. In this way, you shall merge in the Lord, the Supreme Soul. 14

ਧੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈ ॥(Ang 627)
Dhur kee baaNee aa-ee.
The Bani of His Word emanated from the Primal Lord. 

ਤਿਨਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਚਿੰਤ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥
tin saglee chint mittaa-ee.
It eradicates all anxiety.

How can it be any clearer that Baanee came from God himself through the spirit of Guru Nanak. This amazing faith is the most recent of faiths created by God, he sent Guru Nanak in 1469 to liberate the world after he saw all the other spiritual leaders failed as it is stated in one of the Shabads above, this faith took 230 years to create, this faith was created by 10 Gurus only 6 have written in the Guru Granth Sahib, 19 Bhagats and 11 Bhatts all these souls had purified their mind and become one with God so therefore they spoke the word of God.

The bhagats were from different faiths and so called lower castes this,shows the equality of this amazing faith. Guru Jee was sent to liberate mankind and spread the message others had failed to do, he took away all rituals, superstitions, extremism, caste system, gave Women equal rights and taught humans how to become one with the Lord in society.

jab ehu gehe bipran ki reet, main na karun in ki parteet

Guru Gobind Singh Jee says here when we bring rituals and extreme rules in our life like the bhramins I will not stand by you. An extreme Rehit without Athai Pehar 24 hour Naam Simran, virtuous living is not Gurmat this is where the Bhramins failed as they were not suitable to live in society and spread spiritual wisdom. If the mind has to do any form of Pakhand (hypocrisy) in order to keep a certain Rehit this is also not Gurmat as Guru Sahib kept us clear from Pakhand and blessed us with Sach (truthful living), we should let no practice hinder our loving devotion to God.

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥(Ang 747) 
karam Dharam pakhandd jo deesehi tin jam jaagaatee loottai.
The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥(Ang 747)
bed kateb simrit sabh saasat inH pai-aa mukat na ho-ee.
One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.

ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
eik akhar jo gurmukh jaapai tis kee nirmal so-ee. 3
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. 3

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
khatree braahmaN sood vais updes chahu varnaa kau saa(n)jhaa.
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਉਧਰੈ ਸੋ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਾਝਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੫੦॥
gurmukh naam japai uDhrai so kal meh ghatt ghatt naanak maajhaa. 4.3.50
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is saved. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, God is permeating the hearts of each and every being. 4.3.50

Guru Sahib states in this Shabad that the Gurus teachings are to liberate mankind not just Sikhs as stated in the Shabad above, Guru Sahib says be truthful in your own faith but you will not be liberated without meditating on the Lords name Athai Pehar 24 hours.

Guru sahib was strictly against conversions.

sathigur naanak pragattiaa mittee dhhu(n)dhh jag chaanan hoaa||( Bhai Gurdaas Ji - Vaar Page 1)

With the emergence of the True Guru Nanak, the mist cleared and the light scattered all around.

jio kar sooraj nikaliaa thaarae shhap a(n)dhhaer paloaa||

As if at the sun rise the stars disappeared and the darkness dispelled.

si(n)gh bukae miragaavalee bha(n)nee jaae n dhheer dhharoaa||

With the roar of the lion in the forest the flocks of escaping deer now cannot have endurance.

jithhai baabaa pair dhhar poojaa aasan thhaapan soaa||

Wherever Baba put his feet, a religious place was erected and established.

sidhh aasan sabh jagath dhae naanak aadh mathae jae koaa||

All the siddh-places now have been renamed on the name of Nanak.

ghar ghar a(n)dhar dhharamasaal hovai keerathan sadhaa visoaa||

Every home has become a place of dharma where singing.

baabae thaarae chaar chak noukha(n)dd prithhamee sachaa dtoaa||

Baba liberated all four directions and nine divisions of earth.

guramukh kal vich paragatt hoaa ||27||

Gurmukh (Guru Nanak) has emerged in this Kalyug, the dark age.(27) 

WOW this Shabad says it all about the pure Guru Nanak, there is no equal. Nanak was the Avtar of Kal Jug (dark age). Avtar means immortal being whose mind is pure and is sitting in Sach khand (the gate of truth) waiting for duty by the Lord to come and liberate the world. All the religions above were also created in Kal Jug.

ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥(ang 266)
sarab Dharam mehi sresatt Dharam. Of all religions, the best religion

ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਮੁ ॥
har ko naam jap nirmal karam. is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.

ਸਗਲ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥
sagal Dharam meh srestt Dharam. Of all faiths, this is the most sublime and excellent faith.

ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥(ang 895)
har simran teraa ho-e uDhaar.
Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, you shall be saved. 

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਾ ਉਤਰੈ ਭਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
janam janam kaa utrai bhaar. 3
You shall be rid of the burden of countless incarnations. 3

This Shabad is showing equality, he did not preach faith, he preached the name of the Lord in every line of his Baanee.

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਨੇਮ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥(ang 199)
karam Dharam nem barat poojaa.
The karma of good actions, the Dharma of righteous living, religious rituals, fasts and worship -

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
paarbrahm bin jaan na doojaa. 2
practice these, but do not know any other than the Supreme Lord God. 2

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲ ॥
taa kee pooran ho-ee ghaal.
The works are brought to fruition,

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੩॥
jaa kee preet apune prabh naal. 3
who place their love in God. 3

How amazing is Sikhee, Guru Sahib is saying practice religious rituals, fasts etc but if you keep hold of the name with every breath you will be liberated. (there is no need to practice these religious rituals).

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਿਨੀ ਵਿਚੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨੯॥(ang 917)
kehai naanak gur parsaadee jinaa liv laagee tinee viche maa-i-aa paa-i-aa. 29
Says Nanak, by Guru's Grace, those who enshrine love for the Lord find Him, in the midst of Maya. 29

Guru sahib states here that those who love the lord may have wealth, live house holders life, do all the deeds that need to be done in society, have many material luxuries but they will still be detached from all of them because they will have learnt how to let go through the love of Naam.

Sikhee is different from every faith, Daas can talk all day long about Sikhee through the reference of Gurbaanee, Daas realizes this article is very long and people struggle to read solid text so Daas will try and stop soon, you can judge for your self how Gurbaanee proves we are blessed to be Sikhs. We must have good karam (deeds) to be born into Sikh families but only if we realize what we are here for, so why waste time liberate yourselves through Amrit, Rehit, Naam and Baanee. A Sikh can not be liberated without these four.

Pritham rehit eh jaan, khandey ki pahul shakey
The first Rehit is Gurus Amrit.

Rehit bina na sikh kahaavai, 
without Rehit (discipline) one can not be called a Sikh.

Without Naam and Gurbaanee one can not be liberated.

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥(Ang12) 
bhe-ee paraapat maanukh dhuree-aa.
This human body has been given to you.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
gobind milan kee eh teree baree-aa.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥
avar kaaj terai kitai na kaam.
Nothing else will work.

ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
mil saaDhsangat bhaj keval naam. 1
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. 1

In the Sikh faith Guru Sahib gave all Vadiyaaee (praise) to God, no human being.

ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਜੈਸੇ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਲਲੈ ਸਲਲ ਮਿਲਾਤਿ ॥੨॥੧॥੮॥(ang 1200)
te har ke jan har si-o ral mile jaise jan naanak sallai salal milaat. 218
Those humble servants of the Lord merge with their Lord, O Nanak, like water merging with water. 218

In no faith does the soul merge with God unlike the Sikh faith stated above. Gurbaanee is a treasure we have failed to pass on to the world, the only way the world will be liberated is through baanee.

ਇਹੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥(Ang 296)
ehu niDhaan japai man ko-e.
One who chants this treasure in his mind -

ਸਭ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
sabh jug mehi taa kee gat ho-e.
in every age, he attains salvation.

ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
gun gobind naam Dhun baaNee.
In it is the Glory of God, the Naam, the chanting of Gurbani.

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਬਖਾਣੀ ॥
simrit shaastar bed bakhaaNee.
The Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas speak of it.

ਸਗਲ ਮਤਾਂਤ ਕੇਵਲ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ॥
sagal mataaNt keval har naam.
The essence of all religion is the Lord's Name alone.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਭਗਤ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥
gobind bhagat kai man bisraam.
It abides in the minds of the devotees of God.

ਕੋਟਿ ਅਪ੍ਰਾਧ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਟੈ ॥
kott apraaDh saaDhsang mittai.
Millions of sins are erased, in the Company of the Holy.

ਸੰਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਛੁਟੈ ॥
sant kripaa te jam te chhuttai.
By the Grace of the Saint, one escapes the Messenger of Death.

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਕਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਪਾਏ ॥
jaa kai mastak karam parabh paa-e.
Those, who have such pre-ordained destiny on their foreheads,

ਸਾਧ ਸਰਣਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਆਏ ॥੭॥
saaDh saran naanak te aa-e. 7
O Nanak, enter the Sanctuary of the Saints. 7

Daas has had veechar (discussions) with many religious people from many faiths and this has brought Daas so much closer to Sikhee, there is no faith like Sikhee, Daas is not being biased - only speaking the truth, Sikhee is not a religion it is a way of life to reunite our souls with the supreme soul God (Param Atma), this is not only for Sikhs it is for the whole of mankind. If anybody knows of even just 1 flaw in Sikhee please email Daas, Daas will try to resolve your query through the light of Gurbaanee as Daas is fully aware this faith is unique.

Jaago Gursikho, jaago, Panth di thae poore sansar di seva karo Naam thae bani da aasra lai ke, awake Gursikh brothers and sisters serve the Khalsa Panth and the Universe through the teachings of the true Guru (Sat Guru) by meditating 24 hrs with every breath.

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee sacrificed all his family and many Gursikhs in battle for Chardee Kalaa (higher spirits, upliftment of Panth), (Saint soldier article) lets ask ourselves what are we doing for the upliftment of the Panth, Guru Sahib is only asking for time towards Sevaa and Simran. If every Gursikh in the Panth pulled together and did they’re little bit in spreading the true word of Guru Nanak Dev Jee Paatsaah Sikhee would be in Chardee Kalaa, there would be so many more Gurmukh sSjjan (beloved friends), and less quarreling over controversial issues which in the end only bring negativity between Gursikhs and the Panth stays at a stand still.

Can you please email this article to any Monae brothers and sisters you know (Sikhs with cut hair), or alternately introduce them to the blog. *monae brothers and sisters who have not come in to sikhi as yet. Next weeks article is 'Rehansbaaee keertan', why it is important to sit through a full Rehansbhaaee Keertan without going out of the Darbaar? Daas is not trying to promote any Jathebandee when one reads the article one will realize.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Only anti-Hindu prejudices keep defining it as something altogether insidious, corrupt and hostile and undesirable.


 
My Mother side of my family are Hindu. I say it has problems defining itself. My mother says it has problems defining itself. I have witnessed Fights and arguments over definitions of Hindu's between my Mothers family. Are they "anti-Hindu prejudices"?




Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Sikhs are not a different culture, a superior Aryan race, a separate nationhood.


 
Madala Vs Lee Dowell disagrees with you and the recent ruling about the girl and her Kara disagrees with you.

BBC NEWS | Wales | Sikh girl wins bangle law battle

Fourteen-year-old Sikh girl wins High Court battle to wear religious bangle at school | Mail Online

_*While not a requirement of her religion, he accepted the Kara was of ‘exceptional importance’ to Sarika’s racial identity or religious belief*_.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> Hindus believe in many rituals, for example, Rakhree, wearing threads around their bodys to class themselves higher than others (Janeoo), they believe in high and low castes, idol worship - _God cannot be seen through a stone he is only found from within through devotional worship of Simran (meditation). They believe in more than one God, Gods and goddesses. _*There are so many flaws in these religions, Daas feels bad in going through so many negative points of each religion.*


Why oh why... for the 1 millionth time... does EVERYONE define Hindu religion, in contrast to Sikh self-definition, NOT according to philosophy but according to the worst social injustices and hypocritical excesses?

Seriously, if we are honest, and we were to judge Sikh spiritual teachings, not by the teachings themselves, but by the individual character flaws of the fools promoting the faith, we would also sound like these definitions of Hinduism.  Is this not true?  I can think of 3 Gurdwara's at the moment so full of scandal, drinking, ripping off sangat's money for personal use, etc.  So what I keep trying to say is, let's be REASONABLE when interpreting Gurbani as it pertains to Hindu religion, not as if we ourselves are exempt from criticisms due to the increasing corruption of the age of Kalyug, but in context of Gurbani, where Guruji is NEVER condemned Hindu religion's actual teachings, but only the misinformed superficial, corrupted and egotistical practices.  Gurbani is showing how we should ALL be authentic spiritual people and not ritualistic, superficial, hypocritical and corrupted.

Those criticisms are NOT a definition of Hindu teachings.




> _Most of the Shabads in Guru Granth Sahib Jee Guru Jee talks about Muslims and Hindus together, on how they should improve their practices. In this Shabad Bhagat Naamdayv, a Hindu Bhagat is saying a Hindu has no spiritual wisdom and a Muslim has realized a little bit, then he says Naamdayv knows more as he meditates on the Lord._


LOL.  Okay, a HINDU saint is saying the Hindu has no spiritual wisdom, and the Muslim has realized a little bit.  And Namdev the HINDU knows more than both because he meditates on the Lord.  This is ridiculous.  

The shabad is saying the one who spends time meditating on the Lord regardless of religion is the one who gains spiritual wisdom.




> The Bhramins would not let the shadow of a so called low caste come in to contact with their body. They would take a bath saying they are filthy.


Yes and if we didn't have brahmins to pick on we'd have to invent them because there's always SOMEBODY who thinks they're better than everybody else and all their flaws are bigger than the Himalayas.  The point about brahmins is not intended to be interpreted as representative of putting down ALL Hindu religion as false, hypocritical and self-righteous.  Guruji is showing us the bad example so we don't become like it.   Unfortunately, too many Sikhs have interpreted that we ourselves should be the ones with kalank size of Himalayas who won't have anything to do with "Hindu religion."  If it even touches us we have to go ballistic and pull out kirpan and go take a bath, hire nine scholars to refute even the slightest hint of it.  For the record, the Vaishnav sants who wrote the bhagat bani were a revolution of authentic spirituality which OPPOSED the casteism of brahmin injustices.  So the very spiritual reform of brahmin casteism came from within Hindu religion itself.  Moreover, Sikhism is surely no comparative religion of difference by this standard as casteism is alive and well at Gurdwara.



> The janeoo thread is put around the neck of a Hindu Bhramin stating he is high class and well versed in the Hindu scriptures. Guru Nanak Dev Jee refused to wear this thread when the Bhramins come to put it on him as a child, Nanak repeated the Shabad above. Guru Sahib made it quite clear the only way these 2 religions would purify their practice would be to praise the Lord Athe Pehar (24 hours). Both the Hindus and the Muslims tried to claim Guru Nanak was their Peer (saint).


Guru Nanak Dev ji did not refuse to wear the janeo because of it's ritualistic implications as fake worship.  First, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not of brahmin caste.  What Guruji was rejecting at tender age was the brahmin wears a silk thread, the Kshatriya wears a cotton thread, and the Vaishya and shudras didn't get to wear a thread.  So being a good VAISHNAV, he rejected that he should be unequal with others, as principle among Vaishnav philosophy was reform of the caste and varna system, from hereditary separatism, to authentic spiritual hierarchy.  In keeping with Vaishnav sants, believed and taught that the REAL Brahmin was the one who is devoted to love of God, and not some hereditary fiefdom.  Gurbani is not entirely against caste.  It is against caste discrimination and hereditary distinctions.

So this is most certainly NOT any example of how Sikhism is different from Hindu religion per se.

ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 349​

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ 
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~SGGS Ji p. 747​

ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ 
braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
~SGGS Ji p. 861​

ਆਪੇ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਵਰਨ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਲਇਆ ॥ 
aapae dhas ath varan oupaaeian aap breham aap raaj laeiaa ||
He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain.  

ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸੇ ਕਰੇ ਦਇਆ ॥ 
aapae maarae aapae shhoddai aapae bakhasae karae dhaeiaa ||
He Himself kills, and He Himself redeems; He Himself, in His Kindness, forgives us. He is infallible
~SGGS Ji p. 553​

Gurbani shows the relationship to Vaishnav teaching here.  Caste system exists.  God created it.  But the caste system of hereditary injustice is incorrect, no one should be unjust because of caste. God is in all people without discrimination.  No one should be discriminated against because of caste all are equal with respect to the teachings.  The spiritual person of low caste becomes equal to an authentic brahmin.  As a spiritual philosophy, this particular aspect of Sikhism is borrowed from the original "Hindu" Vaishnav reform movement.



> Guru Sahib talked more about the Eastern religions in his Baanee as they were slightly more spiritual and they were the areas he did his preaching, very little is said in Gurbaanee about Christians. _*Daas' personal view after talking to a few Christians is that they do not meditate on the Lord so therefore, their mind cannot be purified through the name of the Lord.*_


LOL.  To be honest, my attitude after spending a few years in Sikh sangat is exactly the same.  Sikhs don't meditate on God either.  But they should.  Just like the Christians should.  Nonetheless, despite the foolishness of the average person, including myself, a few holy people manage to evolve out of Christian and Sikh congregations.

Since it is a Christian tradition to jap the holy name of Jesus, Jesus for hours, not unlike the Sufi's Allah, Allah, or the Vaishnavs Raam, Raam, or the Sikh's Vaheguru, Vaheguru, I think it is possible for mind of SOME Christians to be purified if they are sincere and follow their spiritual teachings.  All religions have become corrupted.  But there are saints in all religions.

In fact, I'm reminded of a few holy people right now that I will share with you all.  






"I desire to become good whatsoever it may cost; take away, destroy, utterly root out all that You find in me contrary to Your holy will."
Stigmatist and victim soul, Saint Gemma Galgani

YouTube - If You Want Your Dream To Be ... [brother sun, sister moon]
The compassionate nonmaterialist Saint Francis of Assisi





Dying of tuberculosis she said, "He has surpassed my expectations."
"I will spend my heaven doing good on earth."~Saint Therese of Lisieux

YouTube - The Capuchin Sisters of Nazareth



> Guru Sahib has not directly talked much about the Buddhs in his baanee but he has mentioned them along with the Jains, Yogees, Sidhs, etc as very spiritual beings.


Yes!  Gurbani says many kinds of the very same people Sikhs often misinterpret Gurbani as blindly condemning, on careful reading shows Gurbani regards as also highly spiritual.  And this includes "Hindus."

YouTube - ammachi lokah samastah



> Buddhists shave their hair saying it keeps them simple and it hinders their practice they do not realize all spiritual energy comes from hair (rom), lord Buddha kept his Kes (hair). Women are not allowed to be ordained as Monks, they believe in celibacy; if everyone became a Buddhist what would happen to mankind? We would be extinct.


No one's practice is hindered.  There are 2 main types of yogic renunciation.  One, using vibration of the hairs as a spiritual vehicle of amplifying Naam Gurmantra.  And another of shaving the head to silence distractions.  Both schools of thought have produced powerfully holy sants and God-realized jivanmuktas.  Ordained women monks are called "nuns."  LOL.  Buddhists have nuns as well as monks.  So do Christians. So do Hindus.  And if you include Nirmala Panthis, so do Sikhs.  About mankind becoming extinct is making up such an exaggeration.  Buddhists as any other religious path which includes a celibate sannyasi teaching, also includes a householder component.  It's far too oversimplified to create artificial distinctions this way. 

YouTube - Sister Nhu Nghiem - Sensuality & Bodhicitta
Buddhist nun 



> Buddhists do not earn a living they beg (bhikhsha). In countries like Thailand they are so well respected people offer them money, who would we beg off if we all became Buddhists, they meditate and spend most their time in monasteries, Guru Nanak Dev Jee declined this type of practice as it does nothing to liberate mankind. _*They worship idols and also believe in many gods and goddesses. Out of the 5 religions Daas has mentioned, Daas has honestly got to say this is a beautiful religion and spiritually have both eyes open.*_


How can it be, that one of the characteristics which defines flaws of Hinduism, "idol-worship" is overlooked with Buddhists and Buddhism proclaimed to be a beautiful and spiritual religion?  Wouldn't it be more likely, that both religions are beautiful and spiritual, but that the average person of any religion in Kaliyug is simply a poor representative of the best and highest teachings?




> _How is Sikhee different ?
> 
> How can it be any clearer that Baanee came from God himself through the spirit of Guru Nanak. This amazing faith is the most recent of faiths created by God, he sent Guru Nanak in 1469 to liberate the world after he saw all the other spiritual leaders failed as it is stated in one of the Shabads above, this faith took 230 years to create, this faith was created by 10 Gurus only 6 have written in the Guru Granth Sahib, 19 Bhagats and 11 Bhatts all these souls had purified their mind and become one with God so therefore they spoke the word of God._


The fact that the bhagats in Gurbani had purified their minds and become one with God _*outside*_ of Sikh religion doesn't say anything about Sikh religion at all.  In fact, close examination of the basic teachings of Sikh religion doesn't show any major dissimilarities with the predominate philosophy of Vaishnavism of the bhagats.



> _The bhagats were from different faiths and so called lower castes this,shows the equality of this amazing faith. Guru Jee was sent to liberate mankind and spread the message others had failed to do, he took away all rituals, superstitions, extremism, caste system, gave Women equal rights and taught humans how to become one with the Lord in society._


The bhagats were from 2 faiths, Vaishnava Vedanta and Vaishnav influenced Sufism.  There were no strictly "Muslim" bhagats.  Only Vaishnavs or Vaishnav influenced Sufis.  The equality among castes, women and acceptance of Muslims and Allah as being a Naam of God was started by Vaishnavs.  So these points alone do not illustrate fundamentals of any "new" Sikh religion.



> _Guru Gobind Singh Jee says here when we bring rituals and extreme rules in our life like the bhramins I will not stand by you. An extreme Rehit without Athai Pehar 24 hour Naam Simran, virtuous living is not Gurmat this is where the Bhramins failed as they were not suitable to live in society and spread spiritual wisdom. If the mind has to do any form of Pakhand (hypocrisy) in order to keep a certain Rehit this is also not Gurmat as Guru Sahib kept us clear from Pakhand and blessed us with Sach (truthful living), we should let no practice hinder our loving devotion to God._


For some political reason, Sikhs keep describing Sikhism in terms of how it's so much better than failed Hinduism.  This is an injustice and not any correct interpretation of either Hinduism or what Guruji was actually teaching us.  It's very clear reading the above passage that Guruji doesn't want His Sikhs, His disciples to fall into the path of corruption, far more than any presumed blanket condemnation of ALL Hindu religion.  So many Sikhs today think ANY slightest association of Sikhism or Gurbani with anything remotely Hindu will make it unclean and corrupted and be exactly as intolerable as pakhandi babas and religious hypocrisy, oblivious to the fact that religious hypocrisy is rampant in Sikh institutions.  So Sikhism can't be defined as "separate" from Hindu religion on the basis of the worst practices of the least spiritual people.  We have the same exact kind of "least spiritual people" in our sangats and leadership...so what are we talking about?




> _WOW this Shabad says it all about the pure Guru Nanak, there is no equal. Nanak was the Avtar of Kal Jug (dark age). Avtar means immortal being whose mind is pure and is sitting in Sach khand (the gate of truth) waiting for duty by the Lord to come and liberate the world. All the religions above were also created in Kal Jug._


I agree with this assessment of who Guruji is, per Gurbani teaching as 100% correct.  However, ALL religions were not created in the Kalyug.  But ALL religions are falling down in the Kalyug.



> _How amazing is Sikhee, Guru Sahib is saying practice religious rituals, fasts etc but if you keep hold of the name with every breath you will be liberated. (there is no need to practice these religious rituals)._


Yes, to jap, meditate and sing the praise of the Naam with bhakti and bhairaag, to practice dhyaan and Simran, to give dasvandh, to become a sevadar, to surrender to Guruji and ask for Guru's kirpa, this is the way to cleanse the defilements of mind and heart and wash away karams and sankalpas and obtain liberation.  But this doesn't mean nobody besides a Sikh can obtain liberation.



> _Guru sahib states here that those who love the lord may have wealth, live house holders life, do all the deeds that need to be done in society, have many material luxuries but they will still be detached from all of them because they will have learnt how to let go through the love of Naam._


Yes one can be detached and be a householder.  But this is no condemnation of sannyasis.  But emphasis on the ability to remain a householder is the message of Kaliyug, just as emphasis on renunciation was the message of previous ages.  One is not advanced over the other, and one is not elevated while the other condemned.  Both are equal paths of life where a person can attain the highest level of spirituality.



> _Sikhee is different from every faith, Daas can talk all day long about Sikhee through the reference of Gurbaanee, Daas realizes this article is very long and people struggle to read solid text so Daas will try and stop soon, you can judge for your self how Gurbaanee proves we are blessed to be Sikhs. We must have good karam (deeds) to be born into Sikh families but only if we realize what we are here for, so why waste time liberate yourselves through Amrit, Rehit, Naam and Baanee. A Sikh can not be liberated without these four._


I'm still waiting to hear what the specific ideological differences which distinguish Sikhi as a religion utterly separate from Hinduism are.




> _Pritham rehit eh jaan, khandey ki pahul shakey
> The first Rehit is Gurus Amrit._


This is not the amrit-nectar talked about in Gurbani.  So Khande Ki Pahul cannot be a spoke on the wheel of liberation.  It is a spoke on the wheel of discipleship for the religious Sikhs.  Since it stems from the tradition of Guru deekhya or diksha, and is the practice which subsumed charan pahul, Guru foot wash, nothing in this practice distinguishes Sikhism from Hindu religion which also has a tradition of Guru Deeksha.



> _Rehit bina na Sikh kahaavai,
> without Rehit (discipline) one can not be called a Sikh._


True, a disciple must have a disciplined sadhana practice or the life and mind can never change.  But rehit per se is not a spoke on the wheel of liberation, it is a spoke on the wheel of discipleship for the religious Sikh.




> _Without Naam and Gurbaanee one can not be liberated._


You have already stated that Guruji is an avataar for the Kaliyug.  And I have read those pauris of Gurbani which expressly state that Guruji is an avataar in the lineage of the Das Avataaras since it follows Gurbani praises the das avataaras as being the Lord God.  So if the Nirguna is ONE, and Rama Chandra and NaraSingh and HarKrishan are all avataaras praised in Gurbani just like Guruji... then Gurbani has to include Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad Bhagavatum.  Just by logic, you can't be God descended in one sargun form, and then God descended in another sargun form, and it's the same One God, but one message invalidates another.  Truth never invalidates itself, it is eternal and unchanging.

Otherwise, we're twisting Gurbani to make it seem, only a Sikh can be saved, only a Sikh can obtain liberation.  And thats patently untrue, since we know the Vaishnav and Sufi bhagats were God-realized before there was even a Guru Nanak.  So this is obviously a misinterpretation.  And if we accept that Guruji is an avtaar in the lineage of the 10 Vishnu avataars, we have to accept the spiritual legitimacy of the Vaishnav scriptures as Gurbani.  Now, I'm not saying a Sikh has to read Bhagavad-Gita and recognize this as Guru Granth.  A Sikh has Guru Granth as authoritative bani.  But what this says is Guruji isn't the only Satguru.  He is the only Satguru for Sikhs.  And that is a powerful difference in meaning.  Likewise Raam and HarKrishan are Satguru's for other people, and something like Bhagavad-Gita becomes Guru Granth for those other people.  It is clear Gurbani has a message of spiritual inclusiveness here which accepts that the One nirgun God is pervading in all sargun forms and spiritual Lights such as avataars.  But a Sikh cannot condemn a Vaishnav as not having a boat of mukti, since very legitimately for the Vaishnav, his Gurbani comes from the same avataar lineage.  So for a Vaishnav, Bhagavad-Gita is as much a boat of mukti as Shri Guru Granth Sahib bani is a boat of mukti.  We cannot delegitimize the spiritual path that produced God-realized bhagats and remain credible, when Guru has included their bani and given the Jyot of Guruship!  So when we bow our heads, we bow to the Guru in the teachings of the wise God-realized bhagat bani, written by those who were never Sikhs.  Powerful lesson!  One does not have to become a Sikh _the way we define Sikh identity_ to become God-realized.  But Gurbani explains through inclusion of the das avataaras that there are those who are _disciples_ of Guru in other religions, because what is Guru is not the sargun identity, but the Jyot of the One Supreme All-pervading God.  But Gurbani teaches us certain ingredients are necessary.  And the highest and easiest path of liberation in Kaliyug... is Naam and bhakti.

So we can clearly see that Gurbani per se, as modern Sikhs are defining it, is alone not the _only true religion_ in some Abrahamic conception where we need to missionize the world in order to save them.  The Path of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is of the very highest truths which have entered the world, with no error.  Sikhism shares major doctrinal similarities with Vaishnav Hinduism and no clear points on which to hang the hat called "new and different religion."  Additionally, if we analyze Naam, many Naams are given in Gurbani such as Shiva, Raam, HarKirashan, Parabrahm, Vasudeyv, Govinda, Gopala.  And we cannot on basis of Naam, exclude Vaishnavas who jap these same Naams, or even Allah which Sufis jap, or even Shiva which Shaivites jap.  So it is clear on basis of Naam, Guruji has made no distinction of independant identity where we can claim, "Sikhism is different."  Rather, from these points we see, "Sikhism is inclusive."  "Sikhism recognizes the reality of God in all religions."



> _In the Sikh faith Guru Sahib gave all Vadiyaaee (praise) to God, no human being._


The worship of the nirguna is not exclusive to Sikhism.  Moreover the japping of Naams of sarguna in form of Vishnu avataars is a distinctly Vaishnav teaching.  And praise of the sargun avataars is clearly expressed in Gurbani.  So the part about "no human being" is not entirely clear.  Guruji has explained that the sargun forms are impermananet and fade to dust, we worship the Timeless One who has no form, no birth, no death.  YET, Gurbani categorically does not deny OR reject that sarguna in form of das avataaras ARE IN FACT manifestations of the ONE nirgun God.  Again, there is no inconsistency with this teaching and Vaishnava Vedanta.  So it singularly does not distinguish Sikhi, but rathers proves incredibly close relationship between Sikh spiritual philosophy and Hindu sect of Vaishnavism.



> _In no faith does the soul merge with God unlike the Sikh faith stated above. Gurbaanee is a treasure we have failed to pass on to the world, the only way the world will be liberated is through baanee._


The merging of the atma with the Paramatma is the basic philosophy of the Vedas.  In nearly every Dharmic tradition is this spiritual teaching.  It is the essence of Mukti which is a Vedantic concept entirely un-unique to Sikhism.  And it clearly distinguishes Sikhism from Abrahamic monotheism and puts it squarely in the ballpark of a faith with Hindu origins.  As a Dharmic faith which believes in a God who is All-pervading, we don't have the anxiety of the monotheistic religions to "save the world."  We recognize that God has given Light of His eternal truths in many forms throughout the world and throughout human history.  Not all lights shine with complete brightness as Sikhi.  But the Light and the guidance of the God is there, for everyone, because Guru is One Jyot with all these avataaras.  So it can be said Guruji, having merged with the nirguna is also Jesus, is also Krishna.  Why should we have anxiety over the spiritual status of other people?  What we need is to become spiritual beings so we can bring blessings to a suffering world and shine Guru's Light from within ourselves as much as we can.  Because the One Beloved lives in the heart of every human being, every person is my altar.  Service to the world is my creed.  But it is a service with no missionary character.  No need for conversions.  Only need to meet the needs.  Bless the world with a generous heart, and you will be blessed.  When we fail to shine as spiritual lights, it means the suffering continues.  So we need as Sikhs, to be good soldiers to conquer the inner enemies so we can overpower outer tyrants and open doors of Light in a world of darkness.  Then maybe some little child in some corner of the world won't have to cry and hurt, and he can dance and sing because we shined enough light to lift the darkness.  That is the treasure of Guruji's spiritual message.



> _Daas has had veechar (discussions) with many religious people from many faiths and this has brought Daas so much closer to Sikhee, there is no faith like Sikhee, Daas is not being biased - only speaking the truth, Sikhee is not a religion it is a way of life to reunite our souls with the supreme soul God (Param Atma), this is not only for Sikhs it is for the whole of mankind. If anybody knows of even just 1 flaw in Sikhee please email Daas, Daas will try to resolve your query through the light of Gurbaanee as Daas is fully aware this faith is unique._


There is no flaw with Sikhi, as there is no flaw with Vedanta which is based on the original revealed Sruti given by nirgun God to the rishis at the dawn of recorded history.  Sikhi is a faith which proclaims the truths of Vedanta as for origin and nature of reality, creation, sarguna and nirguna, samadhi, mukti, merging, Naam jap of Gurmantara, discipleship with a Satguru (and Guruji is obviously not the only one because Gurbani recognizes for different ages Raam and HarKrishan as Satguru as well).  To say there is no faith like Sikhi is entirely innacurate and does a disservice to Hinduism which is so roundly condemned as hypocritical and corrupted at the beginning of this position paper.

There is, for the record, not one flaw in Sihki.  There are however, a number of flaws in the way which it is being modernly interpreted.  No less the major flaw of asserting Sikh uniqueness and independance from the Vaishnavism which so permeates every single reform and spiritual teaching of Gurbani itself.  And Sikhism is not in any way, the One True Faith, like some Abrahamic creed.  Sikhism teaches us that there is One God who manifests in the world in a way that will reach us.  Just as there are different people, different minds, different cultures, different understandings, so are there different paths to the same eternal All-pervading Oneness.  Don't worry so much about differences and identities.  These things are passing away.  They have to.  It's their nature to pass away.  But the light that shines hidden at the heart of things will never fade away.  It can only burn brighter.

"Life has no problems.  Only man is in a bondage of his own making."~Murdo McBirney Baines​"All shall be well.  All shall be well.  And all manner of things shall be well; when the tongues of flame are enfolded into the crowned knot of fire and the fire and the rose are One." ~Julian of Norwich, quoted by T.S. Eliot​
~Bhul chaak maaf karni ji


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## kds1980 (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> Hinduism doesn't have a problem recognizing or defining itself.



Hinduism do have problem in defining itself.The rituals and festivals of hindu's differ a lot from North to south and east to west India.There are strict vegetarians in hinduism and there are tantrics in hinduism who beleive's in practice of animal sacrifice while some also beleive in human sacrifice.Infact news oh human sacrifice by tantriks is common in India.Now if you ask any hindu scholar whether human sacrifice is part of hinduism he will say no .But tantriks have their granths in which this practice is written.So the question is whether a tantrik is hindu or not .If he is not then who is he?

When britishers conducted census they ordered that any person who is unable to define its religion should be put under the bracket of hinduism and that practice still prevails.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

harjas ji

this thing will keep popping up again and again i will not be surprised if you have to explain over and over again

gr8 post btw

could not agree more


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## Randip Singh (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Why oh why... for the 1 millionth time... does EVERYONE define Hindu religion, in contrast to Sikh self-definition, NOT according to philosophy but according to the worst social injustices and hypocritical excesses?


 
Is that not how you are defining other religions in comparison to Sikhism?

People are doing exactly what you are doing?


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## Randip Singh (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



kds1980 said:


> Hinduism do have problem in defining itself.The rituals and festivals of hindu's differ a lot from North to south and east to west India.There are strict vegetarians in hinduism and there are tantrics in hinduism who beleive's in practice of animal sacrifice while some also beleive in human sacrifice.Infact news oh human sacrifice by tantriks is common in India.Now if you ask any hindu scholar whether human sacrifice is part of hinduism he will say no .But tantriks have their granths in which this practice is written.So the question is whether a tantrik is hindu or not .If he is not then who is he?
> 
> When britishers conducted census they ordered that any person who is unable to define its religion should be put under the bracket of hinduism and that practice still prevails.


 
Could not agree more

Christians are the followers Of Jesus

Muslims follow Mohammed

Buddhists follow Buddha

Hindu's follow ????

That is what makes this whole debate a nonsense.


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## Astroboy (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Having pointed out the similarities doesn't make Sikhism a sect of Hinduism.
To understand this further, let's review what similarities can be found between Shia Islam and Sikhism :-

http://www.sabrang.com/news/2007/yogindSikand.pdf


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## dalbirk (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Dear Harjas Ji , 
   Can u point out how many practising Kabir Panthis , Vaishanvs , Yogis ( Real Yogis ) , the other Hindu followers of all Bhagats like Namdev Ji or others r practcing their original beliefs . About 10 lacs ( One Million ) in total which makes them 0.01% of the Hindu population of India . What is only surviving & prospering is BRAHMINISM , the lure of the Alkaline sea that Brahminism is , is so huge that a person's mind is hopelessly made dead . Why haven't the Bhagats succeeded where Gurus did in initiating the upliftment of the downtrodden making rulers out of untouchables ? Not only did they succeed but they r one of the most properous communities , even in India today . The events of 1984 should not be read somewhat differently than how & why they happened . These were due to single minded resolve of Indira Gandhi & his son Rajiv to break the strength of Sikhs , which were hugely responsible for whatever happenned . THE HINDUISM OF TODAY IS BRAHMINISM ONLY & NOTHING ELSE . Whatever good ( if any ) Hinduism is having is not allowed to progress & come up in limelight . It is immediately banged back to obscurity if anything materalises . What is remaining of Jains & Buddhists , Bhagats , Yogis in India who closed ranks with BRAHMINISM & made amends with it . Gautam Buddha was stated to be one of the 24 Incarnations of Vishnu , his statue established in all Vishnu temples . The Birla Mandir in New Delhi is even today having the statue of  Mahatma Buddha as one of the 24 incarnations of Vishnu . What seemed just a friendly gesture of the Brahmins in 8th century ended up as a major reason for the death of Buddhism in India by 11th century .The One God loving Bhagats were shown as Idol Worshipping by the various Sakhis & Tales of Brahmins . Similarly tales about Guru Gobind Singh Ji as worshipping Naina Devi & appearance of Devi abound in RSS literatures these days . This tale of Devi worship was criticised & proven false by Giani Ditt Singh Ji a prominent scholar of the Singh Sabha Movement . He wrote ' Durga Prabodh ' Granth in August , 1899 & proved that the story of Devi Worshiiping was imaginary & written with intent of jealousy .
                    See the proof on ground of what is leading to which direction , whether our actions are going to help Sikhism in anyway or harm it rather ? KINDLY DO LEARN THE DEFINITION OF BRAHMINISM before showing this new found HINDU LOVE .


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## Astroboy (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Harjas Ji,

I think you're trying too hard to prove that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.
 Because Hindus do not see Sikhs as Hindus.
If they did, there would not be an Operation Bluestar.


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## Randip Singh (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



namjap said:


> Harjas Ji,
> 
> I think you're trying too hard to prove that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.
> Because Hindus do not see Sikhs as Hindus.
> If they did, there would not be an Operation Bluestar.


 
Exactly.


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## dalbirk (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Dear Bhainji ,
I am talking of Sikhism as different from Hinduism , because the Hinduism practised today is nothing but BRAHMINISM . Even we all personally had to suffer in 1984 & afterwards , I'm not believing in Khalistan or voilence .I live in LUDHIANA ( PUNJAB ) Does that mean I cannot express my views as a Sikh , now that amounts to GENERALISATION . ALL TALK OF SIKHISM AS A SEPERATE RELIGION IS NOTHING BUT TERRORISM & SEPARATISM . That is I suppose u want to say , what is the difference between this & that of RSS that to live in India as a community Sikhs will have to remain as a part of Hinduism . HAS ANY RELIGION OTHER THAN BRAHMINISM SURVIVED IN INDIA BY BEING A PART OF HINDUISM ? I never said anything against Hindus , they r all my brothers & sisters . Infact my closest friends r Hindus & I don't find much of a difference between Sikhs & Hindus as human beings . But I do want Sikhism as a faith progressing in absolute numbers , because as a way of life it is unparrallel as it actually helps the upliftment of an ordinary mortal in all ways , morally , spiritually & economically ( if practised truthfully ) a true way of LIVING EMANCIPATION . U don't have to worry about voilence or Khalistanis , it is never going to happen as I see things for now . So chill , don't harbour unneccesary fears . As for( so called ) Muslims & Sikh alliance , Islam is too rigid & intolerant to accomodate any other INDEPENDENT RELIGION .  Muslims r too much occupied with their TAAQUIA ie religious conversion .So this so called partnership is the handiwork of some people who might deem it to be fit , not neccesary that all proud Sikhs approve of it . no GENERALISATION should be here too . Might not last very long . U r attacking the independence of Sikhism on a wrong premise . 
Regards ,
Dalbir Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

thats fine


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Dalbirk , namjap, randip jios

you go back to same fallacy of debate

while using Sikhism you take the Guru's philosophy and while considering hinduism you just pick up the worst practices.

Why don't you consider Sikhism as it is, with the jatt-mazbi divide, with the foeticide, alcoholism

behaviour of a person does not define the philosophy of a religion

please understand that there are only very few people who follow the philosophy to its essence.

Most of us neech are busy gloating over our "sticking" to rituals.

This gloating is what generates the pictures shared by Harjas ji

Let me make it clear, i do not say that Sikhism is subset of Hinduism

but i do believe that the essence of sikhi has inherited a lot from the vedic philosophy.


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## Astroboy (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Sikh Dharma
And
Christianity
A Comparative Study

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_christianity.pdf


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

namjap ji

what was this link for?


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## Astroboy (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Sikh Dharma
and
Buddha Dharma
A Comparative Study

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_buddhism.pdf


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

namjap ji

do you agree that person can gain the ultimate goal through following Sikhi, chirst's teachings or Buddha's teaching?


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## Astroboy (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

amarsanghera Ji,

To give readers an opportunity to find out similarities (and differences) between Sikhism and various religions.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Gurfateh

Das saw the thread closed wheren we were been as apprant branch of Hinduism.Anyway das did not have a facility in the cyber cafe from where he could post the reply.So todays post regarding Bhai Ishmmet also das first saved in notepad and uploaded and now posted.and he missed s few points in that thread.

Coming to this thread.

Well when we go to preach Sikhism we find some resitance from Ad Dharmis ie local Mahants etc. of Jatavs and Valmikies(out castes of Hindus).They claim higher then brhamins and have self pride.But some upper caste do not belive them to be Hindus.

Just few things.

budhism was not elimanted over here by a weak idealogy ie hinduism(it was not there at that time) but due to its being athist and pro non violeance,which further weakened Indians also.

Likewise large numbers of Hindus,got converted into Sikhism during time of Ranjit Singh and brought in thier Pagan culture.they diluted Singhism like that of Akali Baba Phula Singh or Nirmala Baba Beer Singh.That Pagan cultured later lead to end of Sikh rule and Halwe Mande Ke Sikhs left us.Our fault was at that time to accept converts without converting thier pagan mentality and once they were majority then pagan things became our part.

LAstly das says that Hindu,Muslims and Christians are our offshoots.Since the universe is made,we are the only faith.

As per Japu Ji Sahib,we have Eka(lord in the form of soul/energy/purush) gat married to a trick of Mai(matter/mammon/power(enrgy in frame of time).This Mai is only the manifestation of Eka.There are three types of Sikhs/Chelas/followers of that accepted ie Producer,protecter/sustainer,destroyer.

So inspiring from God since we are made we all are Sikh of Gurubar Akal.Guru Gobind Singh Sahib wrote as Gyan Guru,Manua gur Mam Mansa Mai.God manifesting as knowledge removing darkness,Mind as manifestation of Guru God and intention as manifestation of God as Mother.

First Black/zero/kal was father/Master of the universe,from that light happened famous,that was called by the name of happeness.That created creation.

From the state of universal black whole(where due to greveity light could not escape)(either due to big bang or sturdy state) light(which being visible could let us have time,space and apprant matter) ermerged.That is to deal with state of happeining(present state as we come into the frame of time).

Pratham Kal Sabh Jagat Ko Tata Tate Tej Bhayo Vikhyata,Soi Bhavani Nam Kahaee...

So in simple words.

A person,who he learns all the thing from universe(biotic or abiotic),universe in God's visible form.And we learn from God and reason of learning is Guru and learner is Sikh.So since start till end we all are Sikhs,and we only will remain.Soory for a bit complex things.Akal Bless.


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## lalihayer (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

harjas ji, I agree with you about not hating any of the Lord's creation. But believe me Hindus are not the only victims. It goes both ways.
 I can post countless pics here from '84 riots. bombay riots, gujrat riots. I can post stories from how ruthlessly Buddhists were ethnically cleaned from land of hindustan in leadership of Adi Shankarcharya. You will find victims and tyrants everywhere.
I must remind you what Arya Samaji founder has to say about Satguru Nanak,
"St. Nanak's motive was righteous but he had no scholastic knowledge at all. However, he certainly knew the language of the country, which prevails in villages. He did not at all know Vedas and other scriptures and Sanskrit. Had he known the Sanskrit language, how could he write the word nirbhaya as nirbho.... However he might have passed as a Sanskrit scholar by making those Sanskrit verses among the villagers who had never heard a word of Sanskrit before.... calumniation and praise of Vedas are found here and there in his book; for had he not done so, some one would have asked the meaning of the Vedas, and had he not been able to tell it, he would have lost his respect.... Since ignorant men are called saints, they can not know the worth of Vedas.... *There were not many followers of Nanak in his time... ignorant make their teacher saint after his death.... St. Nanak was not a rich or noble man but his disciples describe him to be a great saint and a very opulent man*...." 

Some sikhs here are going head over heels to prove that sikhs are parts of hindus. But read the contempt in the words of arya samaji founder for Satguru Nanak. 
Sikhs consider Ten masters as gurus, but president of hindu party Mr Advani considers Ten gurus as saints. 
It is not about hate for hindus or any other community, but our own identity.


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## lalihayer (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

*Harjas Kaur Khalsa asked: You have read Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, tell me, where does Gurbani praise shaheedi as a path to mukti?*

Panna 1105
ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥   ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥  
The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.   The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||  
ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥   ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥  
He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.   He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||  


panna 1412

ਜਉ  ਤਉ  ਪ੍ਰੇਮ  ਖੇਲਣ  ਕਾ  ਚਾਉ  ॥   ਸਿਰੁ  ਧਰਿ  ਤਲੀ  ਗਲੀ  ਮੇਰੀ  ਆਉ  ॥   ਇਤੁ  ਮਾਰਗਿ  ਪੈਰੁ  ਧਰੀਜੈ  ॥   ਸਿਰੁ  ਦੀਜੈ  ਕਾਣਿ  ਨ  ਕੀਜੈ  ॥੨੦॥  
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,   then step onto My Path with your head in hand.   When you place your feet on this Path,   give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||   

panna 579

ਮਰਣੁ  ਨ  ਮੰਦਾ  ਲੋਕਾ  ਆਖੀਐ  ਜੇ  ਕੋਈ  ਮਰਿ  ਜਾਣੈ  ॥੨॥
Death would not be called bad, O people, if one knew how to truly die. ||2||
ਮਰਣੁ ਮੁਣਸਾ ਸੂਰਿਆ ਹਕੁ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ਮਰਨਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੋ ॥
The death of brave heroes is blessed, if it is approved by God.
ਸੂਰੇ ਸੇਈ ਆਗੈ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਮਾਣੋ ॥
They alone are acclaimed as brave warriors in the world hereafter, who receive true honor in the Court of the Lord.
ਦਰਗਹ ਮਾਣੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਜਾਵਹਿ ਆਗੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥
They are honored in the Court of the Lord; they depart with honor, and they do not suffer pain in the world hereafter.
ਕਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਤਾਂ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥
They meditate on the One Lord, and obtain the fruits of their rewards. Serving the Lord, their fear is dispelled.
ਊਚਾ ਨਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਣਾ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਾਣੋ ॥
Do not indulge in egotism, and dwell within your own mind; the Knower Himself knows everything.
ਮਰਣੁ ਮੁਣਸਾਂ ਸੂਰਿਆ ਹਕੁ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ਮਰਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੋ ॥੩॥
The death of brave heroes is blessed, if it is approved by God. ||3||


panna 1102

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਮਰਣੁ ਕਬੂਲਿ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਛਡਿ ਆਸ ॥
First, accept death, and give up any hope of life.
ਹੋਹੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਤਉ ਆਉ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੧॥
Become the dust of the feet of all, and then, you may come to me. ||1|| 

who care about boat of mukti, when you are imbued in love of Lord.

For a Sikh this is the pre-condition, demand of complete self-surrender and humility, offering one’s own life for common good without any fear or hesitation.


*panna 534
ਰਾਜੁ  ਨ  ਚਾਹਉ  ਮੁਕਤਿ  ਨ  ਚਾਹਉ  ਮਨਿ  ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ  ਚਰਨ  ਕਮਲਾਰੇ  ॥
I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet. *


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## Randip Singh (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



amarsanghera said:


> Dalbirk , namjap, randip jios
> 
> you go back to same fallacy of debate
> 
> ...


 

If Kabir ji as a devout Vaishnav states that a woman is a "Cobra", then do you agree that is not compatible with Sikhi?

The Guru'ssought Truth in all faiths. They took elements of that Truth compatable with there own thoughts (which we term as "Sikh"), and compiled it in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Just because they took elemnts of that faith which they thought truthful, it does not mean they followed or acceppted that faith. Guru Nanak going to Mecca does not mean he is a Muslim.

Get my point!

Guru's were followers of Truth, and Bani is Truth!


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## Randip Singh (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

I can't seem to edit my post but I was going to add, I see Sikhi'sparallel's with many faith's,

Jesus's emphasis on Love

Mohammeds emphasis on discipline

Buddha's emphasis on gaining knowledge

Krishna's emphasis on duty

Moses emphahasis on freedom

but Sikhi is not these faiths.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

<<Guru's were followers of Truth, and Bani is Truth!>>

Randip ji

i agree

but truth us not something that changes..

each philosophy contains it.

I hope you are not saying that Sikhism is the only way to know TRUTH.


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## spnadmin (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



randip singh said:


> I can't seem to edit my post but I was going to add, I see Sikhi'sparallel's with many faith's,
> 
> Jesus's emphasis on Love
> 
> ...



Yes, it is simple logic, Randip ji.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

I see my posts are now being deleted, and threads I participate on being closed, so I am unable to answer fully the many points and objections raised, per your wishes.

I will answer this in response to Lalihayer ji.  The question was "Where in Gurbani is shaheedi praised as a path to mukti, liberation?" 

ਮਰਣੁ ਮੁਣਸਾ ਸੂਰਿਆ ਹਕੁ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ਮਰਨਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੋ ॥
The death of brave heroes is blessed, if it is approved by God.
ਸੂਰੇ ਸੇਈ ਆਗੈ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਮਾਣੋ ॥
They alone are acclaimed as brave warriors in the world hereafter, who receive true honor in the Court of the Lord.​
This tuuk of Gurbani talks about how noble and righteous it is for a warrior to defend Dharma.  It does not say, as in jihadi world-view that a shaheed becomes mukti.  The reason for mentioning this was in context of very real issues within Khalistani communities which praise dying in combat as a path to obtain mukti in the Islamic jihadist conception.  Any in-depth study of Nanakian philosophy will show that even japping Naam alone is not the path to mukti, but discipleship to Satguru, Naam jap, kirtan, dasvandh, seva, etc.  In other words, the path to mukti is practicing the path of becoming righteous itself, not specifically of throwing handgrenades and getting killed by police forces.  And the only reason for mentioning this, is, as I have tried to say, such jihadi political views are commonly (At least in USA) being promoted as true path to mukti.  Hence many Gurdwaras are dedicated to shaheeds with photos of them.  This is what the kids are emulating, without even learning anything about becoming a righteous person or protecting the innocent.  There is not even talk about defending the innocent, only talk about defending Sikh self-interests, politically, economically, socially, and obtaining retaliation for 1984 and Delhi Riots.

So from these mis-conceptions about jihadi shaheedi, I do not see any parallel with Gurbani tuuks which praise a "spiritual hero."  To be honored in the Court of the Lord is not the same as becoming mukta.  Authentic spiritual righteousness, for one thing, has got to be more responsible of the public safety.  Waging war on any public is not even the same as an Army fighting an Army.  And for such designation as armed militants irresponsibly targeting a "Hindu" population in general, or using weapons such as machine guns, grenades and bombs where accuracy is not guaranteed, no longer becomes a "Dharmic" struggle, but just another form of political violence rightly deemed by the public as "terrorism."

And I assure you, this is not what Guru vak intended.  These world-views are not a boat of mukti, they are the opposite of mukti.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> harjas ji, I agree with you about not hating any of the Lord's creation. But believe me Hindus are not the only victims. It goes both ways.  I can post countless pics here from '84 riots. bombay riots, gujrat riots. I can post stories from how ruthlessly Buddhists were ethnically cleaned from land of hindustan in leadership of Adi Shankarcharya. You will find victims and tyrants everywhere.  I must remind you what Arya Samaji founder has to say about Satguru Nanak, "St. Nanak's motive was righteous but he had no scholastic knowledge at all. However, he certainly knew the language of the country, which prevails in villages. He did not at all know Vedas and other scriptures and Sanskrit. Had he known the Sanskrit language, how could he write the word nirbhaya as nirbho.... However he might have passed as a Sanskrit scholar by making those Sanskrit verses among the villagers who had never heard a word of Sanskrit before.... calumniation and praise of Vedas are found here and there in his book; for had he not done so, some one would have asked the meaning of the Vedas, and had he not been able to tell it, he would have lost his respect.... Since ignorant men are called saints, they can not know the worth of Vedas.... There were not many followers of Nanak in his time... ignorant make their teacher saint after his death.... St. Nanak was not a rich or noble man but his disciples describe him to be a great saint and a very opulent man...."
> 
> Some sikhs here are going head over heels to prove that sikhs are parts of hindus. But read the contempt in the words of arya samaji founder for Satguru Nanak.
> Sikhs consider Ten masters as gurus, but president of hindu party Mr Advani considers Ten gurus as saints.  It is not about hate for hindus or any other community, but our own identity.


I have been involved in Khalistani communities for quite some time.  The issue is first, why do Sikhs keep interpreting malicious political oppresion of secular Congress Party as "Acts of ALL Hindus?"  Founder of Arya Samaj is not voice of Hindus.  He speaks for Arya Samaj.  It is the illusion of Singh Sabha to paint their political opponents into corner as representative of entire Hindu Panth.  Why do we continue this deceit?

Think about it.  Since the truth is, despite RSS-BJP promoting ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Gujarat riots, which I have also spoken against publically, RSS was still actively risking their own safety to save Sikh lives during time of gallughara.  So if we would have integrity with the facts, how can we say "Hindu's" in general acted out a pogrom of genocide on the Sikhs when "Hindu's" were actively saving them?


Lalihayerji, it is precisely this imprecision which keeps lumping together all political groups such as Arya Samaj and RSS as representative of "Hindu" religion, and targeting the Hindu community as a whole for the kind of abuses of language, denigration of religious value and equality, even threatening of retaliatory violence so prevalent in Khalistani communities today.  And I'm telling you, these attitudes will lead to catastrophe and evil acts in the future.  Because they are based on untruths.  Dark thoughts will always give birth to dark deeds.  

And I don't understand why the Sikh community continues to ignore such a volatile issue.  Why is the general mainstream tacitly condoning and approving the worst attitudes of self-segregation and separatism and ignoring the terroristic implications of such divisions?
Minority segments in the Sikh population are actively praising and promoting terrorist acts as means to an end of achieving Sikh independance, nationhood and Khalistan.  Can we afford to be blind to the ramifications of what that means for India?  For innocent Hindu populations?  What kind of nationhood are we taking about that actively praises collaboration with radical elements of Al Qaeda in Pakistan and war with India?

It is treason.  And I guarantee this kind of talk, these kind of attitudes will lead to an even greater intelligence forces persecution of Sikh communities in the future, not only in India, but all over the western world.



Who will lose? And the answer is, everybody.  And for what?  For some paranoia of being equated as having a Vedantic philosophy and spiritual relationship with overall Hinduism which is so broad as to be powerless to alter Sikh teaching?  Sikh teaching begins and ends with Guru Sahib.  Don't you think that was the intention of Guru Nanak to bring harmony between Hindu's and Muslims by accepting chelas from both communities and preaching message of tolerance and brotherhood?  How in the world did this get shifted into turning deaf ear to political separatism of terrorist organizations?  Because that's what has happened, what is happening.  While everyone argues independant nationhood, and continues to politically blame Hindu's as a religious community spiritually inferior and unworthy of association, no one is talking about the fanatics among us, and how _they_ are interpreting these issues.

For the record, Sikhism has developed into a separate sect, but to be honest, not on enough points of departure from Hindu philosophy to be considered a separate religion.  But even if you do define Sikhism as entirely different religion, why do people continue to deny Sikhism has powerful orientation from within Vedic conceptions of God, universe, soul and salvation?  And why, when we open this can of worms, and the spirit of anti-Hinduism raises it's head, are we not addressing that hostility between Sikh and Hindu communities, because it is the very heart of serious problems and violence today.

In other words, if people really believe in their heart of hearts that Sikhism has nothing to do with Hinduism and Hindu culture, why get upset about the fact other people will make that association?  Why the expression of hostility and ridicule to further ostracize and alienate Hindu-Sikh divide?  And do we hear never-ending political blame for anti-Sikh violence as being a _"guilt of ALL HINDUS?"_



There is very legitimately within the Sikh Panth, a segment of Sikhs which consider themselves sanatan.  And they have a valid historical lineage to that claim.  How are they showing _"disrespect for independant Sikh identity" _not to agree with the Tat Khalsa mindset?  Do you really think the answer is censorship and ostracism?  I have warned you how serious this philosophy of _"Sikh independance from India"_ is and the extremist form it is taking.  Yet all these discussions continue to make these _blanket and irresponsible claims_, which really hinge, not on pride in independant identity, _but on hostility towards Hinduism, Hindu population in general, and the nation of India._

Be honest, can Sikhs who have made such political recovery in India today since 1984 really afford to fan the flames of separatism which are blazing among Khalistanis?  In a post 9-11 era where western governments have zero tolerance for jihadis, can we be so blind to the direction extremist Sikhs are taking in the name of separate identity?  Can you imagine what the backlash against Sikhs will be with Dal Khalsa publically supporting Pakistani jihadis?

What's the harm in showing respect and tolerance to the Vedic ideology in Gurbani?  What's the harm in praising the good things in Hindu religion?  What's the harm in acknowledging a brotherhood between Sikhs and Hindus?  And the only harm I can imagine stems from _oppositional political goals_ and nothing to do with any kind of commonality in the spiritual teachings.  Instead of building bridges, Sikhism is stuck in the post British colonial mentality of agitiating for Sikh rights and Sikh separatism, which is causing the Sikh community incalculable harm and untold deaths.

Is this really a time to stubbornly go on about separate Sikh identity?  With SAD A supporting Pakistani jihadis, and bomb blasts in India mounting, this is taking a decidedly sour turn.  It is better for Sikhs to have no independant identity at all than to be associated in the public mind with Al Qaeda.  This political manuvering has gotten ridiculous.  Sikhs ARE independant.  And Hinduism IS all-inclusive.  WHY in the world is that some kind of monster to everyone?  Would you rather Hindu India targeted Sikhs instead of accepting them as part of themselves?  Just to have relationship to Hindu teachings does not mean you lose your identity as Sikhs of Guru Nanak.  It means you gain relationship and brotherhood within a context of nationhood with India.  And that veer jis and bhain jis is the survival of Sikhism.  The other road is sheer destruction.



And that is the purpose of my posts.  I fear a disastrous future if we don't try and turn this thing around now.  Ideological separatism, exclusivism, nurturing of grievances and blame, that was the politics that gave rise to the Nazi party.  And what is shocking to me, the extremist philosophy within Sikhism is actually the mainstream philosophy.  The majority of Sikhs actually do think this way and support, if not directly, then indirectly, the spirit and message of these Khalistani separatist movements.  And that is tantamount to complicity with those who glorify acts of terrorist violence against "ALL Hindus."

Because, who are Khalistanis fighting against?  Is it oppressors?  No.  Anyone who wants to take out KPS Gill or Jagdish Tytler will have no opposition from me.  That would be a Dharmic action, just as the killing of CM Beant Singh was.  But the rhetoric is agitation against the Indian state to create instability and apprehension; against ALL Hindus in general, as a general population.  The fight is couched in political terms, not against a specific Army of an oppressor, but against people of an ostracized religion in the name of self-rule.

This talk, this mindset, this ideology of separatism which leads to despising of differences in human beings, I cannot support.  If Sikh militants were truly honest, and wanted to wage a war against oppressors from the gallughara, it would have nothing to do with Hindus.  It would address directly certain leaders of the political Congress Party who instigated riots and planned Operation Bluestar and the Sikh Punjab Police forces.  But this isn't a "jihad" against oppressors.  It is the advocacy of political violence for the political objective of seceding from the Indian state.  And as such it is a small movement doomed to failure, and doomed to create negative associations in the public mind with Sikhism and Al Qaeda and create a future of violence and rejection towards Sikhs.  

And all for what?  Because of refusal to acknowledge brotherhood between Sikhism and Hinduism and sincere valuation and respect for Hindu people and Indian state?  If Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in physical form now, do you think he would speak against Hindus the way Sikh communities are doing?  Do you think He would be promoting harmony and unity and protection AGAINST violence and injustice?  The Khalsa raised the sword AGAINST violence as a protection.  What would the Khalsa be raising it's sword for now?  For another political morcha of separatism which alienates and frightens the Indian state and leads to another gallughara?  Who can call this "identity" and "nationhood?"  It is suicide.




> But believe me Hindus are not the only victims. It goes both ways.


This is the attitude I keep talking about.  The Sikh community isn't shunning mindless acts of terrorist violence against innocents.  Instead it is condoning terrorist violence such as the airline bombing as some form of justified retribution and deserved act.  Sikhism is not a philosophy of retaliatory violence.  It's a Dharmic religion of self-defense.  The act, for example, of bombing an airplane, from a safe distance, which is full of non-combatants is not a military action or an act with any spiritual justification.  It's an act of cowardly terrorism.  If cowardly evil people attacked and killed innocent Sikhs, how would a retaliatory bombing of innocents revenge anyone?  It doesn't.  It only brings Sikhs who do and defend such acts down to the level of the evil and the guilty.  On this level, there is no such thing as Hindus, and no such thing as Sikhs.  Everyone is a child of God.  And those who are criminals who promote and act out evil deeds with be condemned and punished by the God, no matter who praises them.  Retaliation, blood for blood, targeting and killing of innocents is the death of Sikh identity.

Kill the evil to protect the innocent, that is the highest Dharmic duty.  Kill and justify killing of innocents, and you become the evil.  People should bow their heads in shame that any innocents were harmed in any militant action, and not only Sikh innocents, let alone deliberately targeted.  This is the _"us against them"_ separatism pervasive in the community today, which only mourns it's own, which blindly and uncritically defends actions within it's own community for it's own benefit regardless of who is harmed.  This isn't a spiritual message. Scapegoating and targeting anyone is not a spiritual message.

Sikhs should be promoting JUSTICE for ALL victims of violence, a spiritual equality of ALL human beings without targeting one particular religion for insult and blame; instead of praising a sectarian divide that threatens to cause even more mindless violence.  With all the money and emotion poured into militant Khalistani causes, why don't we see even one orphanage to bless and support all the victims of mindless violence, Hindu, Muslim and Sikh alike?  We don't, because it isn't a "spiritual movement."  Therefore spiritual people should recoil from it, and from all low-minded hostile attitudes of separatism and delusions of spiritual supremacy.  That is the meaning behind:  "I am not a Muslim.  I am not a Hindu."  It is the universality of the human soul and acceptance of timeless spiritual truths.  You can't be one with the One God if you can't even be one with your neighbor.  That's the fundamental problem with an Abrahamic conception of a God who divides against all other forms of belief.  Pantheistic oneness is unity.  Abrahamic monotheism is an endless war fighting politically for sole and supreme identity among religious faiths.

YouTube - Air India 182 - Trailer


~Bhul chak maaf


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## dalsingh (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

SAD supporting Pakistani jihadis? This is the first I've heard of this. Can you give us some supporting evidence please Harjas?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

harjas ji

its time people consider of a world without a religion.

and if they reach out, they will find Sikhi is just another name of spiritual humanism.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> _SAD supporting Pakistani jihadis? This is the first I've heard of this. Can you give us some supporting evidence please Harjas?_


I already posted evidence with pictures and videos but the post was deleted for unspecified reasons.


Sad(A) since it's inception has been very careful to support independant state of Khalistan through peaceful means.  However, the largest supporters of SAD(A) are not in Punjab where they have to worry about police and public opinion, and you do not see or hear the same kind of restraint.  Certain elements within SAD(A), Dal Khalsa, and Shiromani Khalsa Dal are former members of militant organizations, which still have a base in Pakistan.  What we are seeing in the West is public support of unstable elements within Pakistan, and Pakistani military interests over the survival interests of India, which realistically would destroy Punjab.  The links between jihadi violence and Sikh militancy have always existed and this should be honestly addressed by the mainstream Sikh community.  Support for radical political positions ties directly with issues of Sikh independance, repudiation of any association or any respect for Hinduism, Hindu culture and Hindu state.  You can't have attitudes of hostility which are a primary part of a community's political identity without seeing a connection to attitudes of violence against the presumed enemy. 

When violence does occur, it's not even believable that groups with stated agendas of violence are not involved.  Even if the vocal elements are in the minority, the cause for concern is that the Sikh majority continues to turn a blind eye and justify the attitudes and rhetoric of hostility to Hindus, treasonous collaboration with Pakistan, and agitation for an independant Sikh state.  I'm sorry if you can't see that, it's as plain as writing on the wall.  And as I said, in some diaspora communities it isn't even a minority position.

While I do still have sympathy for militancy as a Dharmic response to political oppression, there is a limit to an appropriate response.  I think the Sikh community as a whole is glorifying the violence of the past and exaggerating the Sikh-Hindu divide for a manipulated separatist agenda.  We don't have any justification for violence or treasonous attacks against Hindu populations, nor are there credible justifications for support of Pakistani jihadis.  This political manipulation is a gross distortion of Sikhism.  And I believe it is firmly tied to the current attitudes of hostility and opposition to anything Hindu.  This is not how anybody will create Khalistan.  It's how people will create another Gallughara.  And if we're honest and evaluate all the elements preceding the violence of the Indian state, there were a number of provoking factors and incidents which pitted Sikhs against Hindus.  If people don't take responsibility for the causes of communal violence and strife, we're just going to keep justifying and repeating the same mistakes and go down that same path again.  Sikhs weren't even noticed internationally during the 1980's and 1990's gallughara.  What will happen if glorification of violence gets established in the public mind with incidents of collaboration with jihadi militant groups such as the Indian bombings?  Sikhs won't have any support at all.  So why are Sikh communities praising the rhetoric of radical Khalistanis?  Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity?  This very talk about separatism, independance, disrespect for anything Hindu in Sikhism is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies.  It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us.  What good can come of it?


YouTube - Sikhs welcomes Pakistan decision to bring Anand Karaj Act

YouTube - Khalistan Speech June 3rd June 2007 Trafalgour Square London

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Sikh Muslim Brotherhood Agaisnt Evil Hindu India

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - 17 BOMB BLASTS ROCK AHMEDABAD,45 DEAD: more Islamic TERROR

YouTube - Punjab: Jihadi-Khalistani link likely

YouTube - Sikh Muslim Brotherhood Agianst Evil Hindu India


The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - The Ghost of Khalistan

ISI-backed Sikh militancy back, warns IB


~Bhul chak maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> _harjas ji
> 
> its time people consider of a world without a religion.
> 
> and if they reach out, they will find Sikhi is just another name of spiritual humanism._


The Sikh community in diaspora has confused spirituality with violent politics of separatism.  And those politics were the likely precipitant for the attack in 1984 and subsequent gallughara.  While this can't in any way excuse the horrific and unjust response by the government of India against the Sikhs, it can't be overlooked either, that Sikhs themselves were provoking the Indian state with talk of independant identity, armed rallies and resistence.  It isn't much different from today where you see dera sacha sauda premis beating or killing a Sikh... but you find that Sikh was also part of an armed agitation.  So honestly, we have to say a certain response from the Sikh Panth is one of provocation.  And this alone is a large cause of unrest.  Consider that 1978 Amritsar attack by sant Nirankaris against Sikhs would not have occured if Sikhs had not responded to deliberate provocations of Gurbachana by marching with swords and shields.  The response received was a gunfight.  How could they win?  So in hindsight, it was a foolish response, and it resulted in tragedy for the Sikhs.  And it was this incident which led to the formation of Babbar Khalsa International, which now has main headquarters in Pakistan and known collaboration with jihadis.  Is there anything logical in this history of events which has anything to do with a spiritual message?

It is not possible for these kind of extremist political responses to be in harmony with any kind of spiritual teaching.  And the fact is, if you backtrack from the violent political actions, you find violent beliefs and attitudes which are behind them.  And this is the point, that Sikhism as a religious identity has defined itself in terms of Hindu injustices, Hindu weaknesses, Hindu failure.  So the Sikh identity is pitched as fighting against the Hindu identity.  Sadly, comments of vulgar denigration and glorification of violence against Hindus, was the primary reason why I lost faith in Khalistanis and began to reconsider a world-view besides the one they promote.

It can't be possible that xyz former terrorist is innocent, when the very attitudes of the community largely agree with his alleged terrorist actions, when the actions are justified, and when the victims are demonized as part of some brahmin conspiracy of the evil Indian state.  That is simply propaganda worthy of Hitler to demonize and scapegoat populations of people.  I invite people to look very closely at this agitation for separate Sikh political identity couched in the name of religion, because it is nothing more than advocacy of violence, of violent means to secede from the Indian state and establish an independant Sikh homeland.  It is nothing more than jihadi religion which promotes shaheedi as a means to achieve mukti.  It is nothing more than radical Islamic definitions of a One True God and a One True Faith.  It is nothing more than an imposed Abrahamic conception which makes every other religion and people in the world inferior to Sikhism, as it proclaims falsely that Sikhism is the only boat of mukti, not unlike jihadis.  It is nothing more than a political philosophy of ethnocentric self-promotion and intolerance in the name of a spiritual teaching.

Any authentic spiritual teaching unites and doesn't divide.  It embraces commonalities and doesn't despise differences.  It promotes honesty and justice and not self-promoting political violence.  It encourages a brotherhood of all mankind and all religions and does not hide behind a shield of separation.  Any authentic spirituality recognizes that ultimately every human being is One with the Oneness which is an All-pervading pantheistic harmony of all that exists.  It has maturity and ease of heart, respect and tolerance.  True spirituality is all embracing and not hostile and fanatical.  True spirituality has no name of any particular religion because the highest truths are universal and belong to all mankind.  That is why there are saints of all religions.



Guru Nanak Dev Ji belongs to the whole world.  To be a chela, a sikh of Guruji, is not to be a member of an elite club, or a nationalistic interest, or a radical political view against India, or a hostility which denigrates Hinduism, or a rejection of people who don't wear the same clothes, or a devaluing of the sincerity of people who cut hair and eat meat, or an authoritarian clique of the influential, or a cultural belongingness of only Punjabis.

Sikhism is bigger than the limited defintions of modern-day Sikhs.  And it is truly sanatan in character.  There are in fact, holy teachings within Hinduism.  And the very highest and holiest universal truths are expounded and taught in Gurbani, for the purpose of uniting Hindu India with an oppressor like Islamic invaders and elevating the example of the best Hindu saints with the best Sufi saints, for one purpose...to teach that God is love.  And it was this love of God which is a sword and shield around the innocent.  It can never be corrupted by petty politics.  Because it will defend the dignity of every human being regardless of political affiliation, ethnicity or religion.  Anytime a spiritual person defends the innocent, he is praising the God of justice and love.  Anytime a person defends evil actions while demonizing another human being, he is condemning himself and his creed.  


Spirituality has no independant identity separate from the One God pervading all creation.  The spiritual identity rests in God and in good deeds.


ਹੋਹੁ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਅਗੈ ਮਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੁ ਲਖਾਵਹੇ ॥ 
hohu nimaanaa sathiguroo agai math kishh aap lakhaavehae ||
So be humble, and surrender to the True Guru; do not attach your identity to your ego.  

ਆਪਣੈ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਜਲਿਆ ਮਤ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵਹੇ ॥ 
aapanai ahankaar jagath jaliaa math thoon aapanaa aap gavaavehae ||
The world is consumed by ego and self-identity; see this, lest you lose your own self as well.
~SGGS Ji p. 441​
ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਇਕੁ ਸਹਜੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਵੇਖੁ ਜੈਸੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਨੀ ॥ 
gobindh preeth sio eik sehaj oupajiaa vaekh jaisee bhagath banee ||
A divine peace wells up from God's Love; behold, it comes from devotional worship.

ਆਪ ਸੇਤੀ ਆਪੁ ਖਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਆ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਈ ॥੨॥ 
aap saethee aap khaaeiaa thaa man niramal hoaa jothee joth samee ||2||
When my identity consumed my identical identity, then my mind became immaculately pure, and my light was blended with the Divine Light. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 490​

~bhul chak maaf


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Harjas ji

A plea for relevance.

_For the record, Sikhism has developed into a separate sect, but to be honest, not on enough points of departure from Hindu philosophy to be considered a separate religion. But even if you do define Sikhism as entirely different religion, why do people continue to deny Sikhism has powerful orientation from within Vedic conceptions of God, universe, soul and salvation? And why, when we open this can of worms, and the spirit of anti-Hinduism raises it's head, are we not addressing that hostility between Sikh and Hindu communities, because it is the very heart of serious problems and violence today. (quote from Post 35)_

What is your basis in logic (not in emotion and inference based on loose associations) that causes you to correlate adherence to Sikh identity and violence against Hindus?

_While I do still have sympathy for militancy as a Dharmic response to political oppression, there is a limit to an appropriate response. I think the Sikh community as a whole is glorifying the violence of the past and exaggerating the Sikh-Hindu divide for a manipulated separatist agenda. We don't have any justification for violence or treasonous attacks against Hindu populations, nor are there credible justifications for support of Pakistani jihadis. This political manipulation is a gross distortion of Sikhism. And I believe it is firmly tied to the current attitudes of hostility and opposition to anything Hindu. This is not how anybody will create Khalistan. It's how people will create another Gallughara. And if we're honest and evaluate all the elements preceding the violence of the Indian state, there were a number of provoking factors and incidents which pitted Sikhs against Hindus. If people don't take responsibility for the causes of communal violence and strife, we're just going to keep justifying and repeating the same mistakes and go down that same path again. Sikhs weren't even noticed internationally during the 1980's and 1990's gallughara. What will happen if glorification of violence gets established in the public mind with incidents of collaboration with jihadi militant groups such as the Indian bombings? Sikhs won't have any support at all. So why are SikhSikhism is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?_ _communities praising the rhetoric of radical Khalistanis? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? This very talk about separatism, independance, disrespect for anything Hindu in Sikhism is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?_

Do we have hard empirical facts and figures to support your claims. What percentage of the Sikh community worldwide subscribes to armed oppression of Hindus and jihadi activity? or does so on the basis of their belief in Sikh identity? What is the incidence? What is the prevalence? Please provide more than your suspicions. 
_
It can't be possible that xyz former terrorist is innocent, when the very attitudes of the community largely agree with his alleged terrorist actions, when the actions are justified, and when the victims are demonized as part of some brahmin conspiracy of the evil Indian state. That is simply propaganda worthy of Hitler to demonize and scapegoat populations of people. I invite people to look very closely at this agitation for separate Sikh political identity couched in the name of religion, because it is nothing more than advocacy of violence, of violent means to secede from the Indian state and establish an independant Sikh homeland. It is nothing more than jihadi religion which promotes shaheedi as a means to achieve mukti. It is nothing more than radical Islamic definitions of a One True God and a One True Faith. It is nothing more than an imposed Abrahamic conception which makes every other religion and people in the world inferior to Sikhism, as it proclaims falsely that Sikhism is the only boat of mukti, not unlike jihadis. It is nothing more than a political philosophy of ethnocentric self-promotion and intolerance in the name of a spiritual teaching. (quoted from post 39)_

Please explain to the forum how you have arrived at these conclusions - for they are conclusions and not so far drawn from evidence but from your personal perceptions. Have you *personally *conducted a sufficiently broad investigation *using a representative cross-section* of the worldwide Sikh community, perhaps by the use of surveys and *analysis* of print media, to draw any of the conclusions in the paragraph above. I am not convinced that YouTube videos are objective sources of evidence. 

_The Sikh community in diaspora has confused spirituality with violent politics of separatism. And those politics were the likely precipitant for the attack in 1984 and subsequent gallughara. While this can't in any way excuse the horrific and unjust response by the government of India against the Sikhs, it can't be overlooked either, that Sikhs themselves were provoking the Indian state with talk of independant identity, armed rallies and resistence. It isn't much different from today where you see dera sacha sauda premis beating or killing a Sikh... but you find that Sikh was also part of an armed agitation.  So honestly, we have to say a certain response from the Sikh Panth is one of provocation. And this alone is a large cause of unrest. Consider that 1978 Amritsar attack by sant Nirankaris against Sikhs would not have occured if Sikhs had not responded to deliberate provocations of Gurbachana by marching with swords and shields. The response received was a gunfight. How could they win? So in hindsight, it was a foolish response, and it resulted in tragedy for the Sikhs. And it was this incident which led to the formation of Babbar Khalsa International, which now has main headquarters in Pakistan and known collaboration with jihadis. Is there anything logical in this history of events which has anything to do with a spiritual message (also quoted from post 39)_

I have not, in my limited experience, seen or heard any activity aiming in the direction of armed response or hostility toward Hindus or the government of India at the two gurdwaras that I attend. Perhaps they are meeting secretly in remote areas, or in bunkers disguised as storage facilities and warehouses on the outskirts of the city. Perhaps they do not want me to know about it. I might spill the beans. In fact Khalistan is never discussed there either. 

Whether they are or they are not violently predisposed toward Hindus is irrelevant in this discussion. What is the *logical* argument that leads to the conclusion: _Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism_ (title of the thread we are now looking at) can be *reasonably associated *with separatism, jihadism, violence, and nazism?  Please provide empirical evidence and logical arguments.


----------



## Astroboy (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

*Questions Asked by Harjas Kaur Khalsa which were not answered :-*

Only anti-Hindu prejudices keep defining it as something altogether insidious, corrupt and hostile and undesirable. It's just a culture with some very ancient and meaningful spiritual philosophies.* 
People keep describing politicians, corrupted fake babas, spies and anti-communal elements as "Hindu." Is that really necessary?

Should the world define the worst behavior of Sikhs as "Sikhism?"

*Should the world define the worst behavior of Sikhs as "Sikhism?" The majority of the worlds religions share some part of the original ancient teachings, because Hinduism is one of the mother religions of the world. *Why does everyone keep getting bent out of shape and trying to deny that?

*Take the best and leave the rest and give respect for what is beautiful.  
*Isn't that tolerance the essence of Gurbani?

*Everyone is so hung up on identities. And nothing of this earth or these identities is permanent. Everything is passing away, *why cling to meaningless outward forms anyway?

*One of the most shameful things is you have people shouting for independant Khalistan, and spending money to propagate this, make offices where they can become chairman of this and that. And Vandana Shiva, a Hindu, is the one actually going around trying to create financial relief programs to help the farmer suicide crisis. *So what kind of Khalistan would we even have, if the leadership doesn't even care about the farmers?

*It sounds as if the Moghals have been reborn as modern Sikhs when you find attitudes like these towards Hindus. And these attitudes and comments are common enough to warrant concern for the spiritual jeevan of the Sikh community.  *What kind of self-definition is this, which defines Sikhism in terms of "not being as bad as the Hindu's are?"

* And so people say, "I am not a Hindu, I am a Sikh."  But Guruji didn't say, "I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu, I am a Sikh!"  Because a Guru is not the disciple, and Sikh means disciple.  So if Guruji is not a Hindu in a way to divide people, *why are Sikhs trying to be Sikh identity, in a way to divide people?*  It's totally contrary to what Guruji said.

More to come.
 Members may point out to me if answers have been given to the above questions.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

thx namjap ji


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## spnadmin (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

in my opinion, Nam Jap ji,

Sometimes the answers are self-evident. Sometimes the questions presume a basis in oversimplification and generalizations that are not warranted by facts or reason.

Sorry to hit hard -- this is hard talk - and my style of moderation portends this. Fairness all the way around requires fairness to Sikh identity.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> For the record, Sikhism has developed into a separate sect, but to be honest, not on enough points of departure from Hindu philosophy to be considered a separate religion. But even if you do define Sikhism as entirely different religion, why do people continue to deny Sikhism has powerful orientation from within Vedic conceptions of God, universe, soul and salvation? And why, when we open this can of worms, and the spirit of anti-Hinduism raises it's head, are we not addressing that hostility between Sikh and Hindu communities, because it is the very heart of serious problems and violence today. (quote from Post 35)
> 
> _What is your basis in logic (not in emotion and inference based on loose associations) that causes you to correlate adherence to Sikh identity and violence against Hindus?_


I have answered in detail on a number of threads, some of which are now closed as you well know.  What is the purpose of asking that which I can't answer?  You yourself have closed the threads because the moderators have decided such conversation as pointing out the sanatan philosophy in Gurbani with relevant correlations to Vedic and Upanishadic teachings somehow offended the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha prevailing self-definitions of Sikhism as wholly distinct and unrelated to anything Hindu.

As Namjap Ji has so kindly pointed out, my questions have not been answered on several of these threads.  How can anyone call it a "discussion" if relevant points, questions and objections are raised which are ignored, then the position itself gets deleted and threads get closed to silence the viewpoint, and pretend in any fashion something about fairness?

If you want hard talk, then let's discuss some of the many questions I have asked on numerous threads including this one.  Why do I have to defensively answer so many questions and even direct attacks against my position without any answer in kind?  Or is your intention to create a "hotseat" situation where someone who posts an unpopular topic gets grilled, but no one grills themselves over contemplation of the alternate viewpoint?  So that isn't hard talk, it just becomes hard-headed.




> While I do still have sympathy for militancy as a Dharmic response to political oppression, there is a limit to an appropriate response. I think the Sikh community as a whole is glorifying the violence of the past and exaggerating the Sikh-Hindu divide for a manipulated separatist agenda. We don't have any justification for violence or treasonous attacks against Hindu populations, nor are there credible justifications for support of Pakistani jihadis. This political manipulation is a gross distortion of Sikhism. And I believe it is firmly tied to the current attitudes of hostility and opposition to anything Hindu. This is not how anybody will create Khalistan. It's how people will create another Gallughara. And if we're honest and evaluate all the elements preceding the violence of the Indian state, there were a number of provoking factors and incidents which pitted Sikhs against Hindus. If people don't take responsibility for the causes of communal violence and strife, we're just going to keep justifying and repeating the same mistakes and go down that same path again. Sikhs weren't even noticed internationally during the 1980's and 1990's gallughara. What will happen if glorification of violence gets established in the public mind with incidents of collaboration with jihadi militant groups such as the Indian bombings? Sikhs won't have any support at all. So why are SikhSikhism is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it? communities praising the rhetoric of radical Khalistanis? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? This very talk about separatism, independance, disrespect for anything Hindu in Sikhism is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?
> 
> _Do we have hard empirical facts and figures to support your claims. What percentage of the Sikh community worldwide subscribes to armed oppression of Hindus and jihadi activity? or does so on the basis of their belief in Sikh identity? What is the incidence? What is the prevalence? Please provide more than your suspicions. _


These aren't suspicions bhenji and you know it.  Perpetual and unrealistic denials only serve to further jeopardize the spiritual jeevan.  This is a discussion forum and you have already completely deleted the post which discussed in detail and provided video and pictures as corroboration, not of "individuals" but of major rallies which thousands have attended.  So falsely taking some stance that implies I have no proof is outrageous, especially given the fact that you deleted the threads which had supporting evidence and was specific to the points I talked about, and now make it seem as if I have only words and opinions and no evidence at all.  Asking for a research quality paper which includes percentages is ridiculous as I'm not a University employee, and neither have I undergone any complete study.  But I have spent several years in Khalistani communities, and I do think my words are accurate.  Bhenji, when dealing with issues of this nature, no one is going to be able to cite a research document which appropriately illustrates who honestly supports what.  The very nature of association with some of these groups would create n intelligence services investigation, either in US, UK, Canada, or Britain.  So communities aren't going to be entirely forthright.  If you hold such a paper in your hands, which claims contrary evidence, I suggest you consider it isn't based on truth due to the legal ramifications.

It has been publicized in a number of reports how a segment of the Sikh community, largely the youth are idolizing violent militant organizations.  So it's certainly not even new to hear the allegation.  Since I happen to come from exactly that section of the Sikh community, I am simply verifying from my experience, this is a real problem.  I have already explained why I think it's a problem, and from what attitudes and beliefs it stems from.  Just by attacking the position does not make this serious problem go away.  Just by denying won't stop the fanatical elements within Sikhism from continuing to advocate violent means or the Sikh community in general from tacitly tolerating and even justifying those extremist beliefs.

In my mind the question of discrediting this phenomenon of revival and glorification of Sikh militancy as off the mark, is incredible, largely because it's real and even well-publicized.  Some of the pro-Khalistani attitudes and anti-Hindu sentiments or genralization of "ALL Hindus as guilty or evil" have been voiced on these very threads; so questioning it's relevance as a topic discussion is rather surprising.  In my mind the issue should be "Why does the Sikh community continue to praise and condone the violent baggage which arose out of the 1980's conflict?  This is neither obtaining justice for victims of injustice than it is securing the future for Sikhs in Punjab to live peacefully AFTER genocide.  

And the reason such issues are related is because the entire Sikh morcha by Akali Dal stemmed out of the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha self-definitions of Sikhs as entirely separate and independant from Hindustan.  1984 was a direct result of the conflict between these forces of independant national identity and rejection of Hindu society.  Now this is a simplication, in justice there were legitimate grievances and there were acts of marginalization.  But if you wanted to do a standard research study in comparison, it should compare the Singh Sabhist Bhindranwala faction with the Rajasthanis.  The Rajasthanis were also fighting the Moghals and lost rule and land and political power after the British invasion.  Yet, they retained a Hindu identity.  Despite certain matters of grievance and injustice, the Rajasthani community continued to remain nationalistic, patriotic and prosper.  

Contrast that with the Sikh community whose entire agitation has it's basis on a "separate Sikh identity," a "separate nationalism and nationhood."  And if you can't see political tragedy in that stance, I don't know what to say.  Indira was a evil, selfish demon who I believe is in the lowest hell for her actions, but politically, the fact that the Indira government initiated martial law crackdown following her fradulent election tells you there was a degree of instability in her government.  WHO in there right mind decided this would be the ideal time to stage an agitation and a morcha for assertion of independant Sikh rights?  In hindsight, can you see how predictable the outcome was?  I cannot blame any innocent person for the bloodbath which was planned by corrupt and evil people.  But I do feel responsibility is at the feet of leadership, both the Indian government AND the Sikh leaders, who did in fact play into the hands of Pakistani ISI.  Now, I have defended against this for years.  But realistically I do know, that in a political agitation, you look for the responsible party as being the one with proximity, means and who benefits the most.  And if we are honest, Sikh agitation and subsequent gallughara benefitted one entity only... Pakistan.  And that is who it continues to benefit, which is why we see things like the Dal Khalsa-Muslim Alliance.  Or Simranjit Singh Mann shouting "Pakistan Zindabad," and decrying the United States toleration of nuclear India.  Politically these attitudes are treasonous coming from an Indian national.  Think about it.  And who are the largest supporters of Shiromani Akali Dal Amritsar, Dal Khalsa and Shiromani Khalsa Dal?  They are the Sikh disapora in US, UK, Canada, and Britain.

So let's be reasonable in these discussions and not deny the evidence out of simple argumentativeness and blanket denial.  Ask yourself (and please I welcome the answer), "How do you think attitudes of Sikh independant identity and separatism are affecting attitudes of hostility to anything Hindu and even glorification of violence against the Indian state?"




> It can't be possible that xyz former terrorist is innocent, when the very attitudes of the community largely agree with his alleged terrorist actions, when the actions are justified, and when the victims are demonized as part of some brahmin conspiracy of the evil Indian state. That is simply propaganda worthy of Hitler to demonize and scapegoat populations of people. I invite people to look very closely at this agitation for separate Sikh political identity couched in the name of religion, because it is nothing more than advocacy of violence, of violent means to secede from the Indian state and establish an independant Sikh homeland. It is nothing more than jihadi religion which promotes shaheedi as a means to achieve mukti. It is nothing more than radical Islamic definitions of a One True God and a One True Faith. It is nothing more than an imposed Abrahamic conception which makes every other religion and people in the world inferior to Sikhism, as it proclaims falsely that Sikhism is the only boat of mukti, not unlike jihadis. It is nothing more than a political philosophy of ethnocentric self-promotion and intolerance in the name of a spiritual teaching. (quoted from post 39)
> 
> _Please explain to the forum how you have arrived at these conclusions - for they are conclusions and not so far drawn from evidence but from your personal perceptions. Have you personally conducted a sufficiently broad investigation using a representative cross-section of the worldwide Sikh community, perhaps by the use of surveys and analysis of print media, to draw any of the conclusions in the paragraph above. I am not convinced that YouTube videos are objective sources of evidence. _


Youtube videos may be the only available evidence for certain things.  It's not like the Republican party which announces it's platform publically.  Babbar Khalsa originally started as a militant movement from within Akhand Kirtani Jatha as a response to the massacre of 13 Gursikhs in 1978 Amritsar by sant Nirankaris.  The first thing they did was separate themselves from the Jatha to avoid having the elders be implicated for acts committed by the militants.  While I believe this was fair and true, the Punjab police forces still targetted and tortured and killed innocent family members of the militants.  Today, when we are discussing photos of sheheed militants in Gurdwaras (there are some in diaspora which are this blatent~ Fremont Gurdwara for example), smagams and rainsbhaes given to honor shaheed militants, Nagar Kirtans which have displays of shaheed militants, etc we cannot ignore that sympathy for militancy continues.  But how can you precisely pinpoint with degree of percentages such sympathetic support for an outlawed terrorist organization which would get you questioned, possibly detained and deported, and in cases of some militant communities, extradited to the Punjab police?  It's not like analyzing the percentage of brown hair in a Swedish immigrant population in Wisconsin.

Now you've asked a fair question, to what degree is the Sikh community IN GENERAL sympathetic to militants.  And I'm honestly telling you, it is not as small as the Sikh community would like the public to believe.  Especially among the young, Sikh militancy has been accepted as a path to mukti.  It is positively glorified.  And we must all be concerned with separatist attitudes which continue to espouse justification of terrorist violence of innocent Hindu population by demonizing them as some kind of evil brahmins who are enemies of the Sikh Nation.  It is already embedded in the Sikh consciousness that Sikhs are a separate identity fighting for it's survival against the machinations of evil, corrupted Hindus.  When someone defines how Sikhism is NOT related to Hindu philosophy, he doesn't even discuss the philoisophy... he discusses the emotionally laden catch words which amount to rejection of Hinduism as evil and corrupting, denigration of Hindu's (And you have deleted my post which showed a true snapshot of how the Sikh youth REALLY feel about Hindus, in so many derogatory and abusive terms).  These ARE the attitudes which will precipitate more and more violence.  They are a literal clarion call for violence and agitation against Hindus in the name of independant Sikh identity.

Do you see the Dalai Lama aggressively asserting Buddhist independance from Hinduism?  No!  And the reason is, he doesn't have to.  Buddhism is secure in it's spiritual philosophy and has no problem acknowledging the sanatan origin of Buddhist teaching, which in large measure influence the wonderful Advaita school, which in turn had some degree of influence on the Vaishnavism which in turn influenced Gurbani.  The philosphies are there plain as day.  But it is unreasonable to assume that any reactions of profound hostility and rejection are necessary for Sikh survival.  And I'm sharing with you the political origins of such attitudes, and how destructive they really are.




> The Sikh community in diaspora has confused spirituality with violent politics of separatism. And those politics were the likely precipitant for the attack in 1984 and subsequent gallughara. While this can't in any way excuse the horrific and unjust response by the government of India against the Sikhs, it can't be overlooked either, that Sikhs themselves were provoking the Indian state with talk of independant identity, armed rallies and resistence. It isn't much different from today where you see dera sacha sauda premis beating or killing a Sikh... but you find that Sikh was also part of an armed agitation. So honestly, we have to say a certain response from the Sikh Panth is one of provocation. And this alone is a large cause of unrest. Consider that 1978 Amritsar attack by sant Nirankaris against Sikhs would not have occured if Sikhs had not responded to deliberate provocations of Gurbachana by marching with swords and shields. The response received was a gunfight. How could they win? So in hindsight, it was a foolish response, and it resulted in tragedy for the Sikhs. And it was this incident which led to the formation of Babbar Khalsa International, which now has main headquarters in Pakistan and known collaboration with jihadis. Is there anything logical in this history of events which has anything to do with a spiritual message (also quoted from post 39)
> 
> I have not, in my limited experience, seen or heard any activity aiming in the direction of armed response or hostility toward Hindus or the government of India at the two gurdwaras that I attend. Perhaps they are meeting secretly in remote areas, or in bunkers disguised as storage facilities and warehouses on the outskirts of the city. Perhaps they do not want me to know about it. I might spill the beans. In fact Khalistan is never discussed there either.


Is this kind of mocking tone really necessary?  And will this kind of mockery of a very real and serious issue make it go away?  Do you really think for one moment that people actually involved with militancy are going to announce it at the podium?  So are you saying by this ludicrous statement that there is not and has not been Sikh militancy?  And if you really believe that, I have to conclude you are naive.



> Whether they are or they are not violently predisposed toward Hindus is irrelevant in this discussion. What is the logical argument that leads to the conclusion: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism (title of the thread we are now looking at) can be reasonably associated with separatism, jihadism, violence, and nazism? Please provide empirical evidence and logical arguments.


It is precisely the most relevant purpose of this discussion.  We are not here discussing directly the issue of whether Sikhism is philosophically related to Hinduism, such has been discussed in detail in posts which have been closed.  This is now addressing the political basis and implication of the identity of Sikhism being based on separation from Hindus, and the many recent relevant traumatic events which have precipitated violence and extremism in the assertion.  Prior to the 1900's Singh Sabha reform, Sikhs did not have this vocal and hostile separatism.  They were among the most nationalistic communities in India.  But as the philosophies and politics of independant nationhood and separatism became forefront, things like the 1980's morcha agitation by Akali Dal and Bhindwanwala faction led to direct confrontations with the Indian government, along with cries for independant Khalistan and witnessing militants working with the Pakistani government to recognize creation of Khalistan state.

Whether or not you in particular choose to acknowledge or reject the recent politics which led to the diaspora Sikh communities in the West, denial of the influence of militants in shaping the political structure of Gurdwaras, ostracizing and beating people who held a different political view, and even drug running and gang-like criminal syndicates to raise millions of dollars funding, who knows what for, is simply not believable.  Not only is it documented. It's been witnessed.  I've witnessed some of these things.  Are ALL Gurdwaras influenced by militant communities?  No.  Are many Gurdwaras influenced by militant communities?  Perhaps in an indirect way, certainly there is a large sympathy for Sikhs against the Indian state, and attitudes derived from Singh Sabha that Sikhs are an independant nation and persecuted minority in India.  These attitudes do encourage the more immature views calling for blatant hostility to any and all Hindus, and sympathy for militant violence among the young.  The music among the Sikh youth, the artwork, posters, t-shirts, etc, what do they praise?  They praise a culture of terrorist violence.  Are some Gurdwaras influenced by militant communities?  Hehe, please!  Anyone who denies that these are the most influential Sikh communities in diaspora is sleeping.

So the issue is not "ALL SIKHS ARE SYMPATHETIC TO MILITANTS."  The issue is, "How is the mainstream Sikh community tolerating and ignoring the extremist views of the militant communities?  How are their own mainstream youth getting swept up in a culture of independant Sikh identity which is nothing more than glorification of shaheedi militants and  attitude of independant separation from the Indian state, from evil Hindus, and treasonous attitudes justifying terrorist violence?"


Because these issues are very real, we can't ignore the implications of anti-Hinduism/anti-India as being asserted as part of the Sikh self-definition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/south_asia/7281371.stm
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14619640
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/punjab/terrorist_outfits/ISYF.htm
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/khalistan-forces-trying-to-stir-sectarian-violence_10029686.html
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080427/khalistan_shirts_080427

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GF10Df03.html
http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/dec/21pak.htm
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&issueid=31&id=11521&Itemid=1&sectionid=61
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=KANCHAN161.txt&writer=KANCHAN&validit=yes
http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_071005a.html
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=12906



Where do these attitudes of pugh-wale RSS anti-Sikh, fake Sikh, Hindus come from?


> _Dal Khalsa Alliance
> Saturday, 03 February 2007
> The khalistani leaders [or the followers and members of the anti-Sikh parties like BJP, RSS, etc.] with anti-Sikh L K Advani, an associate of a criminal VP Vajpayee of the RSS & BJP.  The khalistani leaders or the Dastaardhari (turbaned) Hindus in The Sikh Identity
> http://www.dalkhalsausa.org/content/view/505/48/_


From separatist militant organizations which are united with Pakistan like Dal-Khalsa.


*The rhetoric of separatism and secession:*


> Quaid e Azam, Muhammad Ali Jinnah had said at a certain occasion,
> "We maintain and hold that Muslims and Hindus are two major nations by any definition or test of a nation. We are a nation of a hundred million, and, what is more, we are a nation with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of value and proportion, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and traditions, aptitudes and ambitions. In short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life. By all canons of international law we are a nation."
> 
> In these words not only had Jinnah refuted his critics who in their twisted logic had insisted that Muslims and Hindus were nothing but one people, but had at the same time given Pakistan the ethos on which were to be erected the various institutions of this newly founded state. Islam was the cause of the birth of this country and only Islam can justify its existence.  http://www.daily.pk/world/worldnews/84-worldnews/6099-the-myth-of-a-united-india-and-indian-democracy-or-hypocrisy.html


I ask another question, in lieu of the corrupted politics of the past and of the present, how do these divisionary self-identities define a universal sanatan spiritual philosophy of authentic mukti which praises the God of love being present in every human being regardless of religious affiliation?  And then ask yourselves if the current politicized Sikh identity has lost contact with the reality of univeral Sikhism open to all castes and religions as taught by the Sikh Guruji.  Because that message of tolerance and universal acceptance is the profound philosophical viewpoint of sanatan Dharma contrasted with the ugly politics of the Singh Sabha exclusionary nationhood identity of today.


_The Sikh identity is chela of Guru!
The Sikh identity is upholder of righteous Dharam!
The Sikh identity is seeing the unity in all men and women.
The Sikh identity is about mukti-merger into the pantheistic All-pervading Oneness of Parabrahm Narayana which is the True Self underlying all creation!
The Sikh identity is not a political objective or nationalistic communal bias.
The Sikh identity is not based on the failings on any other religious community.
The Sikh identity has nothing to do with defined nationhood by Singh Sabha.
The Sikh identity has nothing to do with armed insurrection or agitation against the Indian state.
The Sikh identity is not about prejudice or disdain for Hindus or political alliances with Muslims._


~Bhul chak maaf


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## pk70 (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

*Harjas Bhain ji,*
*  With no offense, I have found some of your conclusions totally baseless, some time I wonder how you can call your own Guru” a Vashnava” There is no solid proof of Guru Nanak’s initiation by any Vashnava, not a single proof where he himself states that actually Vashnava sect should by followed, contrary to it he addresses almost all kinds of sects and religions and inserted his own views if they some how resemble with Vashnava that doesn’t mean he  was Vashnava. Calling a founder of Sikhism a Vashnava, it is nothing but displays of sheer ignorance. If Guru ji says “ we are not Hindus or Muslims” doesn’t it sufficient to refrain to judge Guru ji as Hindus or whatever/ If Gurus are not Hindus how their followers can be Hindus. Where is reason? I felt strongly, after turning seriously towards Sikhism, to live what Guru ji says and I noted down, tell me, why Guiru ji says” that Sikh I like who wakes up early and meditate on Him( Mehl-4), why Guru ji doesn’t say” that Vashnava or that Hindu I like who wakes up early and meditate”? Isn’t it irony that some thing forces you to prove only one thing that Sikhism is sanatam dharma. Why we need Sikhism any way if snatan dharma is there  to satisfies us?  In reality it is bundles of various sects and people are free to worship rates, monkeyes, Sun, Rivers etc.  If Guru ji came only to correct Hinduism then why he got into dialogue with Yogis, Muslims?  Why only he traveled so vast to see Gurmukhs, not Vashnava or spiritual Hindus( Sidh Gost?) He doesnt mention those words being enforced on him today.*
*Where did he write that He didn’t wear Janeo because janeo was different than Brahamans? He condemns janeo in totality as a fake because it gets burnt when body is cremated, only real one goes with the soul because real one is truthful living. I humbly request kindly do not say those things about Guru Nanak who didn’t say so. One should respect Guru one believes in, as I quoted numerous times, forget about all others, or me, just read POURI 27,Maajh Ki Vaar, Guru himself says he was personally asked by the Lord to contemplate only His name and ask others to do which he did. Why didn’t he write that he followed sanatama, Hinduism or Vashnava then got enlightened? Why to cook stories to enforce the views out come of desperation of those who think, in Sikhism, a lot of good is found contrary to those  found in Vedas like human sacrifice, inequality, gods running after each other wives etc etc.  You or I will not be happy if some one level us what we are not, how this should be taken in context of Guru ji. Who are theses guys who are doing such propaganda, what is their establishment that they are able to judge Guru ji as Vashnava. After all, there should be limit of abuse. How any one justify ones own views by ignoring Guru’s own words about enlightenment? To yogis he says” I have no miracles but His Naam( Sidh Gost) Regarding castes, Gurbani clearly says” jaat da garbh na kareo koee(M-3), a full rejection of castes, so Sikhism is totally different in this concept too.. Why you are keep calling Him Vashnava? Did any where in Guru Granth Sahib Guru ji was called Vashnava?  There is no concept of HUKAM in Vashnavas, no concept of  His grace either. Concept of liberation is also looked at a different point of view. Even Vashnava has Gods with bodies, in Sikhism, God hasn’t a body, only His Nirgun form is pined for. You haven’t even proved Guru ji advocated Vashnava, how you can label him to be Vashnvaa.  Calling Guru Nanak a Vishnu avtaar is also distortion because compliments are every where in Gurbani, for example, Sikh is called Guru in Gurbani, does it mean every Sikh is Guru? 
[/FONT]* *Whatever you are talking is distortion; It continued for a while. People who saw Sikhs in seventeenth century, their way of living, their behavior towards others, called them totally separate from Hindus or Vashnava. Even Persian writers who hated Sikhs didn’t say a word about Sikhs a part of Hindus,  in Mughal records Sikhs are known as Nanak panthi notVashnava or Hindus. Why?  In another post you said” it is not believable that when Sikhs were hiding, they let Hindus take over their Dharmsalas.” Well History says so, during that time, **Massa** Ranghar kind of people took over Harmandar, why don’t you see it was possible. They were just trying to save themselves how would they control every thing, their heads were priced  and people were hunting them, then why it is not possible that people in disguise took over Sikh Holy places and stayed there to make money and none of them were persecuted by Mughals? Isnt it amazing? it doesn’t make any sense that Guru ji was Avtar of Vishnu if Gurbani of Guru Nanak is read in totality. All those quotes are compliments, nothing more than that. One should at least once study Guru Granth Sahib completely before bad mouthing about Guru Nanak. From similarities you have gone further to convert him in to another sect. I have read all the quotes you have been giving, kindly read all those in context of that complete Shabad they were taken from, picture is different. Openly you blame Singh Sabha or western influence for distortion of Gurbani, lets forget Singh Sabha or its agenda, lets Bhain ji discuss that portion of Gurbani where you smell  total Hinduism  and see who are right with one condition, Guru Message must be kept in totality. 
*
*Whatever you are saying about people demanding separate state, how can you conclude they represent all Sikhs or Sikhism in its totality? A good Sikh must not hate Hindus, Muslims and people of other faiths.  Sikhism teaches against caste (complete rejection), no worship of Sargun form but one Creator, the Infinite who doesn’t take birth. This was also stressed by writing Mool mantra before every Shabad and Banis including Bhagatas in SGGS. Its repetition has meaning, there is no shabad without Mool mantra When people leave old faith, to drag that faith back to them, is nothing more than injustice  done against those individuals. When Hindus are questioned in this context, no one is criticizing Hindu public but only those so called Hindus who purposefully try to spread wrong message.*
*For the Harmony between Sikhs and Hindus, we do not need to say that Sikhs are part of Hinduism, we must admit who ever is other than Sikhs deserve the same respect as Sikhs do, if any one thinks otherwise, doesn’t represent Sikhism for sure.*
  Vaishnav philosophy was reform of the caste and varna system, from hereditary 
  separatism, to authentic spiritual hierarchy. In keeping with Vaishnav sants, believed and taught that the REAL Brahmin was the one who is devoted to love of God, and not some hereditary fiefdom. Gurbani is not entirely against caste. It is against caste discrimination and hereditary distinctions.
*Sikhism totally rejects it. Guru ji went further by saying actually He lives in the lowest, that is rejection of the hypocrisy of being High caste.( Asa dee Vaar)*
*Lets see below what Guru ji says to under stand why we do not like to be called Hindus., first stress is given on contemplating on Him*
ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਵਿਸਰਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਤੂ ਕਬਹੂ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਹਾ ॥ ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਜਿਤੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਈ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੇਹਾ ॥੧॥ 
Suhi 5th Guru. What kind is that place of Thine, O Lord, where the mortal forgets Thee not ever, and where he contemplates Thee throughout the eight watches and his body becomes pure? 
ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਹਉ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਭਾਲਣ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਭਇਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
My Lord I have come to search that place. Searching and searching, I found it to be the society of saints, whose sanctuary I have now entered. Pause. 
ਬੇਦ ਪੜੇ ਪੜਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਹਾਰੇ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਬਿਲਲਾਤੇ ਤੇ ਭੀ ਮੋਹੇ ਮਾਈ ॥੨॥ 
Reading and reciting the Vedas Brahma grew, He found not even a sesame's worth of God. The strivers and adepts roam about wailing They too are bewitched by mammon. 
*Look here Bhainji, it is not Singh Sabha or westerners to misguide us, see what is said above, those so called sargun forms of the Creators couldn’t find even a little of HIM. If so, how they become part of three murti concept and rule the spiritual world, if they don’t even know Him. Do you think it is a praise of these guys? Better than them were Kabir ji, Namdev ji. Neither wisdom of Veda could help them nor Braham, for use how much are they useful then? Why then Sikhs are part of this family of ten Avtaras, Brahma etc*
*Here I am not speaking against Hindus or their Gods but simply saying Guru ji says that they just couldn’t know any thing about Him. If Brahma couldn’t do, Vedas couldn’t do, why these things are forced on Sikhs as wisdom or individuals of high super being to guide any one. Why Gurbani says Hindu is blind? It doesn’t ridicule them but  is saying that they just stopped at His sargun Sroop as many so called Sikhs have.*
ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ॥੩॥ 

There have been ten incarnations are Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes. 
*Do you see that Bhain ji, how come these so called ten incarnations couldn’t even know Him, look at the pitiable condition of Shiva!, it is not Singh Sabha or me, it is Guru ji. Bottom line is this; Guru Message doesn’t ridicule any one but doesn’t either promote other avatars as worthy of taking guidance. Why some picked up portions from Geeta or Vedas are posted repeatedly when there is stuff that really doesn’t support peak of spirituality, actually it degrades humanity and it is not posted by you. Take example from Ramayana, Ram chander beheads low caste just because he was contemplating on Lord. No body talks about that. He sends his wife sita, for whom he fought for, to jungle because a washer man said woman was not worthy to keep in home after staying with other man*, *what kind of spiritual being he was who was taking guidance from an idiot. That is another problem why Sikhs just want to be called Sikhs, if you become part of combination of all sects( Hinduism), you have to put with all unacceptable views, and none is there like this in SGGS Ji.*
*Lets see where Guru ji praises them and where discard them as no use to follow due to unacceptable traditions or rituals in them*
*Aasa mehla 1 -12 * ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ 
Asa Measure, First Guru. There are six systems, six their teachers and six their doctrines. But the Teacher of teachers is but one Lord, though he has various vestures. 
*Above hint is at acceptable truth, now look which is not acceptable*

*(920) *ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਪੁੰਨ ਪਾਪ ਬੀਚਾਰਦੇ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਤਿਹੀ ਗੁਣੀ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਸੁਤਾ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੇ ਜਨ ਜਾਗੇ ਜਿਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੋ ਤਤੁ ਪਾਏ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ਜਾਗਤ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥੨੭॥ 
The Simritis and Shastras discriminate between good and evil, but know not the essence of the Real Thing. Without the Guru, they know not the essence of the Reality, know not the essence of the Reality. The 

world is asleep in three modes and doubt, and in slumber its night(life) passes away. By Guru's grace, only those mortals keep awake, in whose mind the Lord abides and who utter the Nectar-word. Says Nanak, he alone obtains quintessence, who ever remains merged in the Lord's love and passes his life-night awake
.
See  Bhain ji, what  kind of grading scripture of wisdom get  from Guru ji
 
* Even Bhagavat Geeta says so, means Hinduism is attacking Vedas*
*ved vaadrta..parth ( Geeta 2-42)( imbued with the words of Veda, mind cannot contemplate on Lord)*
*tregun visheea veda( Geeta 2-450 Vedas take to worldly three gunas)*
*Guru ji says all including every one known in any religion is created by Him, that is it. Nothing more than that, it further says that all just sing at HIS door( SGGS 839) and like Ram, he created numerous, so don’t worship them but Him, there are many like Ram or Krishn, we don’t know(SGGS 464)  Guru ji wants to follow that Guru who shows HIM every where and within. Not even any name of Vashnava sect member mentioned as” "Vashnave worth guiding any one." Gurbani simply mentions names of Bhagatas without labeling them with any sect, don’t you get it?. Gurmukh, Sikh are praised because they follow Guru to worship one Nirguna. Bhagatas were praised because they contemplated on Him. If names they use for Lord Sound Hindu, please read the whole shabad, it is not  about Sargun form but nirgun form. All stress is to imbue with Nirgun form and move on, instead of indulging in worshiping sargun form. That was another reason Guru ji calls” burn mouth” who calls Nirguna takes birth.*
ਸਹਜ ਸੂਖ ਆਨੰਦ ਨਾਮ ਰਸ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਤੀ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੨॥੪੯॥ 
Poise, peace and bliss are in the Name Nectar, So the Lord's saints sing His praise. Nanak has seen the accredited sight of the Guru and with his soul and body he has pondered over the Lord Master. 
*Here is what Guru ji wants his followers to follow, period. No dreams, no imagination and no distortion of message  I don’t care about  what Singh Sabha or western interpretation is all about, I am just reading what Guru ji wrote here.*
ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥ ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਜਿਤੁ ਛੂਟੈ ॥੧॥ 

Suhi 5th Guru. The rituals, religious rites and hypocrisies, which are seen, them plunders Yama the tax-gatherer. Sing thou the pure praise of the Creator, contemplating whom, even for a moment, thou shalt be emancipated. 
*Guru Granth Sahib is all about Love of Creator and His creation and stresses on worshiping Him only*
ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਰੀਐ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
O saints, thus is crossed the world-ocean. He who practises the word of the saints, he is ferried across by Guru's Grace. Pause. 
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ 
All the Vedas, the religious books of the Muslims, the Simirtis and Shastras, by reading these, salvation is not obtained. He, who by Guru's instruction utters the one Name; He gathers the pure glory. 
*If Ved or Kuran/Bible were so important for Sikhs, why would Guru ji view them like this? If we accept they are good as you advocate, why Guru ji says otherwise,  it means, regardless how good they are, they simply are not useful for a Guru follower. Does it mean we criticize Hindus, no, we are following what Guru said, period.*
ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਉਧਰੈ ਸੋ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਾਝਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੫੦॥ 
  The four castes of warriors, priests, farmers and menials are equal partners in divine instruction.   Nanak, he who under Guru's instruction utters the Name of God, who abides in all the hearts, is saved in the Dark-age.   
*Is Guru ji accepting four castes here? He is commenting on castes already existed. A lot of is being said through His sargun sroop, why every thing is not accepted by*
*Guru ji then? Stone worshiping is condemned in Gurbani, that was also started by His Sargun form, then why to condemn  stone worshiping as you say Caste system is made by Him as per Gurbani. Point Gurubani passes on is that all this is His play, one must make choices, Guru ji stood against all these, why? One needs to understand the context
[/FONT]* *of Guru’s message to decipher its depth. See below, Guru ji addresses only at His Sargun form, is Guru ji  is not saying, close your eyes and follow all His Sargun Form because He created them?*
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬਾ ਆਪੇ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਸੰਕਰ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਜੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਭੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਬਿਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਆਪੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਸਿਆਣੀ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਚੋਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧੨॥ 
Pauri. Himself the Lord is the good man, heavenly herald and the celestial singer and Himself the utterer of the six schools of philosophy. The Lord Himself is the god of creation, the god of death and the god the nutrition. Through the Guru, He Himself narrates the unnarratable story. He Himself is the renunciator, Himself and enjoyer and Himself, becoming a solitarian, wanders about in wildernesses. The Lord discourses with himself, Himself He instructs and Himself is discreet, graceful and wise. Staging His Play, He Himself beholds it. The Lord Himself is the knower of all the creatures. 
  ( quote)
Christians are the followers Of Jesus

Muslims follow Mohammed

Buddhists follow Buddha

Hindu's follow ????

That is what makes this whole debate a nonsense.
*I agree but I add one more thing, Sikhs follow Guru Nanak*
  ( quote0 behaviour of a person does not define the philosophy of a religion “
*Absolutely true, doubtless.*
  I have been involved in Khalistani communities for quite some time. The issue is first, why do Sikhs keep interpreting malicious political oppresion of secular Congress Party as "Acts of ALL Hindus?" Founder of Arya Samaj is not voice of Hindus. 
*On what ground you are saying that Bhain ji?, people know that he is revered by  Hindus. Are you aware of how many schools and colleges are being run in his name?*
      He speaks for Arya Samaj. It is the illusion of Singh Sabha to paint their political opponents into corner as representative of entire Hindu Panth. Why do we continue this deceit?
*I am not supporter of Singh Sabha,  why I see Hindu fanatics and their attacks on every one other than Hindu.  Why Hindutava? Why not Hindustantava, Bhartvarshtava?  It is not only fanatics in Sikhism, also fustics in Hinduism  who play all dirty game. *
  And I don't understand why the Sikh community continues to ignore such a volatile issue. Why is the general mainstream tacitly condoning and approving the worst attitudes of self-segregation and separatism and ignoring the terroristic implications of such divisions?
* Why do you think bhain ji that all Sikhs are standing behind Khalistanis?*
  Minority segments in the Sikh population are actively praising and promoting terrorist acts as means to an end of achieving Sikh independance, nationhood and Khalistan. Can we afford to be blind to the ramifications of what that means for India? For innocent Hindu populations? 
* If you say”Innocent Hindu population, innocent Sikh population, innocent Muslim population and innocent Christian population, should be protected from fanatics found in Hindu population, Muslim population, Sikh population and Christian population” it would sound more reasonable*

  What kind of nationhood are we taking about that actively praises collaboration with radical elements of Al Qaeda in Pakistan and war with India?
  Do they represent all Sikhs as Arya smaj doesn’t represent all Hindus
*Very true, they are fanatics but do not blame only fanatic Sikhs( I am not supporting them but saying both play dirty games why to pick one to blame.)  in this context because that is not fair approach either, Fanatics are never religious regardless the ties they have with any religion. After having said that for a record, Sikhs are not against Hindus, action brings reactions. Punjabi Hindu accepted Hindi as mother tongue while speaking Punjabi as their mother tongue. Dont you think, it wouldn’t bring any reaction.  It was politics not religions neither Hinduism nor Sikhism*
   What's the harm in showing respect and tolerance to the Vedic ideology in Gurbani? 
*What do you want Bhain ji? What Sikhs should do with Vedas?  What should we do with Athrva Veda in which obscenity and human sacrifice is advocated? The only time when their Gods are questioned when they force their sects on us saying you are Hindus otherwise we respect them. I feel no Sikh hates people of other faiths, if any does; he/she is not Sikh.*
*Are Sikhs going to Hindu temples and ridiculing them? I just cannot understand what do you want from a Sikh to please Hindus only?*

  What's the harm in praising the good things in Hindu religion? 
*Muslims praise their religion, Christian praise their religions, Hindus praise their religions, so do Sikhs, what is wrong with any of them after all, faiths are basically good for spirituality.*
  What's the harm in acknowledging a brotherhood between Sikhs and Hindus?
*Who are those Sikhs who are against Hindu public? If you see, they are not Sikhs
[/FONT]*    Why harmony can be brought by saying we are part of Hinduism?
*Why harmony cannot be brought by saying we are not Hindus as we are not Muslims Why only Hindus are important to bring Harmony? What about Muslims? Christians and others?*

*All Vashnava Gods have bodies but Sikhs God has no body,  He doesn’t take birth, so doesn’t die, no specific form, in simple words Sikhs worship only His Nirgun form; here is the essence of Sikhism in simple words, no three conceptual powers, no Gods with bodies but HIM formless means Nirguna.*
ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ ਅਮਰੁ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਲਾ ॥ ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
The first (Lunar day): The Unique Lord is Peerless, Immortal, Unborn, and without caste and involvement. He is Unapproachable and Unapprehensible and has no form or outline. Searching and searching, I have seen Him in all the hearts. Devoted am I unto him, who sees and makes others see the Lord. By Guru's grace I have obtained the Supreme status. 
*So when you call me a part of Hinduism, I feel, you are enforcing numerous gods, devtas and others things on me; however, when you call me a Sikh, I have Guru and the eternal Infinite who is beyond birth. Being a Sikh I reject all that they worship and do as religious practices but it doesn’t mean I am anti Hindus. As they are free to worship whatever they think is all right, we Sikhs should be left alone to live as followers of Guru Nanak*. *Thanks*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



> Harjas Bhain ji,
> With no offense, I have found some of your conclusions totally baseless, some time I wonder how you can call your own Guru” a Vashnava” There is no solid proof of Guru Nanak’s initiation by any Vashnava, not a single proof where he himself states that actually Vashnava sect should by followed, contrary to it he addresses almost all kinds of sects and religions and inserted his own views if they some how resemble with Vashnava that doesn’t mean he was Vashnava. Calling a founder of Sikhism a Vashnava, it is nothing but displays of sheer ignorance. If Guru ji says “ we are not Hindus or Muslims” doesn’t it sufficient to refrain to judge Guru ji as Hindus or whatever/ If Gurus are not Hindus how their followers can be Hindus.



Dear Pk70,
those threads which were discussing opinion of whether Sikhism is a Vaishnav philosophy have been closed.  And so I cannot continue this discussion where my responses are deleted without notice and threads closed.  At present we are discussing how attitudes of Sikh separatism and independance are related to attitudes of hostility to Hinduism and Hindus and what relationship it bears to Sikh militancy and establishment of independant Sikh Nation of Khalistan.  Please remain relevant to the current topic and avoid provocation of labeling my opinions as "totally baseless," "displays of sheer ignorance" and such, as I cannot defend myself in response.  Moreover such accusations are of the nature of "personal" attack and do not of themselves address or clarify a different proof or position.  They are hardly fitting comments to find on a "fair" discussion forum.



> _Why do you think bhain ji that all Sikhs are standing behind Khalistanis?_


They are not.  But the attitudes of separatism, hostility, and glorification of violence remain unaddressed by the mainstream Sikh community and creates a tacit approval to the youth to continue the Singh Sabha ideology of Sikh separatism, independant nationhood and hostility to Hindus and anything associated with Hindu religion which makes any realistic discussion of Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani a subject of derailment.  Moreover it can't be denied that entire segments of the Sikh community in diaspora are in fact supporters of an independant state of Khalistan.



> _On what ground you are saying that Bhain ji?, people know that he is revered by Hindus. Are you aware of how many schools and colleges are being run in his name?
> He speaks for Arya Samaj. It is the illusion of Singh Sabha (Singh Sabha Movement) to paint their political opponents into corner as representative of entire Hindu Panth. Why do we continue this deceit?
> I am not supporter of Singh Sabha, why I see Hindu fanatics and their attacks on every one other than Hindu. Why Hindutava? Why not Hindustantava, Bhartvarshtava? It is not only fanatics in Sikhism, also fustics in Hinduism who play all dirty game._


There are all kinds of corrupted people and politicians.  But only Sikhs defines themselves as antagonistic to any relationship with Hindu identity, even philosophically due to defining Hinduism as entirely evil and corrupt.  So we are discussing, not every sin and sinner in the world, but the issues of negativity in the Sikh self-definition.  Regardless of whether someone claims to be a supporter of Singh Sabha, our current institutions of Sikh governance, including Shri Akal Takht Sahib and SGPC governance of every Sikh Gurdwara conforms to the Singh Sabha philosophy of radical independance from Hinduism and Hindustan.



> _Why harmony can be brought by saying we are part of Hinduism?
> Why harmony cannot be brought by saying we are not Hindus as we are not Muslims Why only Hindus are important to bring Harmony? What about Muslims? Christians and others?_


Because the independant Sikh identity is predicated on independant Sikh nationhood and per definition it is treasonous and oppositional to the continuance of the Indian state as a collective.  Rather than acknowledging the sanatan Dharma implicit in Gurubani, and the fact that Guru's families and majority of Sikhs came from Hindu families, or that in historical past the relationship between Sikhs and Hindus was in fact indistinguishable, the Singh Sabha reform mentality has created this endless pitched antagonism not only against relationship between Hindu philosophies in Gurbani, but to Sikhs as historically related to land of Indus Valley.  And so it cannot be denied that a fanatical and vocal element within mainstream Sikhism itself continues to portray the most negativistic descriptions of Hindu religion in conjunction with attacks against "Hindustan and the brahmin state."  It can be directly shown there is an association between Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha mentalities and political collaboration with Pakistan for independant Sikh nationhood.  This explains the mass conversions among Singh Sabha in the early 1900's to convert Muslims and anti-Hindu Dalits into politically registered Singh Sabha Sikhs.  And it explains the continued attempts to belittle the sanatan philosophies in Gurbani as being parallel with some equality of philosphy shared with Islam.  I have asked the question numerous times now, "Please show me where in Gurbani Guruji adopted tenets and belief system of Islam."  Association with Vaishnav influenced Sufis is not the same thing as sharing doctrinal relationship with monotheistic Islam.  Vaishnavism came hundreds of years before the Sufi phenomenon.  It can't even be considered that Sufism altered the teachings of Vaishnavism, when Sufi practices modified to include a form of Vaishnavism, most notably Naam jap, and jap of Ram Naam, bhakti sankirtan, mystical dhyaan and Simran, and raising kundalini Shakti to open the dasam duaar.  Yet this incredible assertion that Sikhism is as much a part of Islam as it is a part of Hinduism remains vogue among the Singh Sabha Sikh communities.  And that is the only purpose of further alienating and denying a Hindu relationship to assert such things.



> All Vashnava Gods have bodies but Sikhs God has no body,


Vaishnav philosophy gave us the teaching that God is both nirguna and sarguna.  Vaishnavism believes that the ultimate is Maha-Vishnu (All-pervading) or Parabrahm (before the Brahma).  It is the formless God which Vaishnavs acknowledge is the Ultimate, but He is revered in form of His sargun avtaaras, which incidentally are also named and referred to as God in Gurbani.  It is taught that japping the Naam of the sargun manifestations is the boat of mukti in the Kaliyug, since no one can jap the name of the formless who is beyond language.  Hence the Vaishnavs jap Naam of God as Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, Vasudeyva, Govind, Gopala, Narayana, Parabrahm, Mukundey, etc.  And if this sounds familiar, it should.  It's all in Gurbani.



> So when you call me a part of Hinduism, I feel, you are enforcing numerous gods, devtas and others things on me; however, when you call me a Sikh, I have Guru and the eternal Infinite who is beyond birth.


Vaishnavs don't worship the demi-gods, so no one is imposing anything on you to point out the obvious doctrinal similarity with this sect within Hinduism and Gurbani teaching.  A Sikh only means you are a chela of a Guru, and devoted to the Guru's teachings.  It has become corrupted to mean a host of institutional things which definitions are even contrary to Gurbani teaching, such as Sikh Rehit Maryada claiming Sikhs don't believe in avtaaras, when Gurbani clearly defines Sikh Guru as an avtaara.

Also, simply calling yourself doesn't mean you have the eternal and the Hindu's do not.  That is really an ethnocentric philosophy of arrogance.  The God of eternity belongs to every human being regardless of religion.  It is no Sikh exclusive right to claim to have the Infinite God who is beyond birth.  If you studied even the simplest basics of Vaishnav philosophy you would know that you are falsely defining Vaishnavism, and that the Vaishnav scriptures themselves refer to God as Unborn, who descends into sansaara in avataaras as a Guru, to guide a world in darkness back to the Dharma light.


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Dear Members,

It has been discussed by  Forum Leaders and members before, that in order to have a healthier discussion, the posts must be shorter and raise a maximum of 2 questions on an on-going discussion. This is to give the responser better understanding to the  question posed.  

Most people do not have the time to read pages of notes because the response then will not be accurate. It takes both sides to make a good discussion. :yes:
So how about taking one thing at a time for a beginning ?


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



aad0002 said:


> in my opinion, Nam Jap ji,
> 
> Sometimes the answers are self-evident. *Sometimes the questions presume a basis in oversimplification and generalizations that are not warranted by facts or reason.*
> 
> Sorry to hit hard -- this is hard talk - and my style of moderation portends this. Fairness all the way around requires fairness to Sikh identity.




Totally agree and also if Wikipedia is used as references, members should make sure that there are citations to back up the facts.
I find that most of the posts are irrelevant to the topic at hand. I find it has become a habit of some members to deviate from the topic and speak about everything else which has little bearing to the topic and which require to be discussed  (in such details) separately altogether under a different heading.


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 3, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*



namjap said:


> Dear Members,
> 
> It has been discussed by  Forum Leaders and members before, that in order to have a healthier discussion, the posts must be shorter and raise a maximum of 2 questions on an on-going discussion. This is to give the responser better understanding to the  question posed.
> 
> ...


Haha, you are right! I often noticed that I skip over long posts just because it's impossible for me to read them. Good advice!


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## pk70 (Aug 3, 2008)

*Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc*

Vaishnav philosophy gave us the teaching that God is both nirguna and sarguna. Vaishnavism believes that the ultimate is Maha-Vishnu (All-pervading) or Parabrahm (before the Brahma). It is the formless God which Vaishnavs acknowledge is the Ultimate, but He is revered in form of His sargun avtaaras, which incidentally are also named and referred to as God in Gurbani. It is taught that japping the Naam of the sargun manifestations is the boat of mukti in the Kaliyug, since no one can jap the name of the formless who is beyond language. Hence the Vaishnavs jap Naam of God as Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, Vasudeyva, Govind, Gopala, Narayana, Parabrahm, Mukundey, etc. And if this sounds familiar, it should. It's all in Gurbani( quote Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji)
* Harjas Bhain ji, I am trying to discuss only those points you hinted at in your recent post, rest I am not going to bring back*
*You read that Vashnava, I didn’t, to be honest with you, my journey ends at Guru Nanak so I am not interested in reading that either. If I go with your interpretation, Vashnvas teaches us that Lord has two forms, Sargun and Nirgun. He sends avtar to enlighten people. I am with you, not necessarily agreed with you but just to listen about them through you. Now as stated by you” they have main Vishnu, Parbraham,  one part of Vishnu incarnates as Sarguna . As people cannot contemplate on Nirgun, so by worshiping Sargun, people get mukti. As per your statement, Gurbani uses those names to contemplate on those names because it is hard to contemplate on Nirguna. If we go by this idea, we are in a mess, our attention is divided, Second Mehal calls it “ duality” he says” only one can be loved that is Nirguna.( Asa dee Vaar) All others who came through body met their end, only beyond is that Nirguna form which you say they believe it is not easy to contemplate on. Vashnavas also worship sargun form Krishna, in Geeta, Krishna says” I am God” also  he says” I am son of Vasudeva( Lord) Gurbani  accepts  himas Sargun sroop but no where else it says” He was God or son of God,” as Krishna claims. I am not really care about singh sabha or its agenda, my thinking is to see if all Gurbani stands in align with Vashnava, if not, there are only similarities . All the names you gave are used for Nirgun form not in sense of sargun in Gurbani because Guru ji is very strict in context of calling Him” takes birth” You quote any shabad,  I shall discuss with you. I quote a few Guru Vaak here, just to see how those names are used for Nirgun not for sargun, the reason I say is that in Gurbani, Krishnas deceptive attitude is expressed, Ram’s ordinary man’s behavior is described, all other well known names are really not considered as guiding light for Sikhs. Here is Guru bachan unlike Vashnava’s complete philosophy ( as they say He comes in sargun srop to enlighten people), Gurbani stresses only on Nirguna*
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਥਾਪਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੋ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ 
None can unseat then whom the True Guru has installed. Within then is the Name treasure and through the Name they are renowned. They worship God's Name and believe in nothing but the Name. Ever imperishable is that True Lord. 

*Now look at the below Guru Vaak, here many names are given to Nirgun Entity*
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਜਾਨੁ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣੇ ਸੰਤ ਸਭਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਨਿਤਿ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥ 
Meditate on God God's Name day and night and by Guru's grace deem God's Name thy treasure. By meeting the society of saints thou shalt acquire Divine Knowledge and enjoy all comforts and God's elixir. He, whom the True Guru has given the Name, ever serves Lord God day and night. 
*Bhain ji as I follow you, in this Guru Vaak, “ Ram” is used for Him,, Har is used for Him, Prabh is used for Him. If we say here Guru ji is using these names for Ram or Shiva( Har), then Gurbani teaches  us to worship those guys who are known behind these names. Truth is otherwise, Guru ji stresses on **Nam**( above quote, stress is on Nirguna), some time without any names at all. So I feel that looking at” Ram’ Krishan” words His entity is dragged to those historical people about whom Gurbani Gurbani says” those kings were considered incarnation but actually were not, a quote was given before. If we go by Vashnava thought only, we are stuck with theses names but Guru ji takes us to right Source that is Him, if Vashnava practiced both plans, admitting there is Nirguna but there is Sarguna that can be worshiped then Gurubani detours from that thought only to Nirguna and Sarguna form is not worshipable.*
  which definitions are even contrary to Gurbani teaching, such as Sikh Rehit Maryada claiming Sikhs don't believe in avtaaras, when Gurbani clearly defines Sikh Guru as an avtaara
* Gurbani doesn’t say Guru Nanak was incarnation of Vishnu. That also not right because none of the Gurus said so. Compliments are distorted and called Guru Nanak God, incarnation of Vishnu. If you give quote from Gurbani, I shall happily show you what that meant in context of totality of the Shabad. Sikh Rehat maryada is not ideal for me since it has flaw any way, it should be revised time to time since it is not directed by Guru ji. So we have no disagreement on that*
  Also, simply calling yourself doesn't mean you have the eternal and the Hindu's do not. That is really an ethnocentric philosophy of arrogance. The God of eternity belongs to every human being regardless of religion. It is no Sikh exclusive right to claim to have the Infinite God who is beyond birth.  
  I *agree, even there are other faiths HE has given to people to get enlightened. I am not capable of worshiping every thing; I can only worship Him as creator of all. Sikhs do not claim that only Sikhi brings union with Lord and they should not being respectful to His Hukam( another concept Vashnava doesn’t have),  as they are being buried under avalounche of incarnated Gods, they have to cry hard to tell the *[/FONT]    *world that they only believe in Infinite beyond birth, nothing more than that. By saying so, they do not take away others right to have God. Muslims say He is in Kaba, so it be, Hindus see Him in many forms, all right.*
*Am I only right? That is not my claim. Are they wrong, I am not their judge but Gurbani says they don’t use their sight( Hindu is blind) but Gurbani  also says that every one is under His ordinance, how then others can be wrong then? Obviously they are not for Sikhs as advised by Guru ji*
  Please show me where in Gurbani Guruji adopted tenets and belief system of Islam.
*Bhain ji, I hope, you are aware of this fact that Guru ji didn’t criticize Islam either; he only pointed out corrupt religious guides and rulers aligned with them, actually Guru goes further by telling them how to be good Muslims. In a same tune, he says to others too including Vashnava, Hindus etc. My stand is not with those who say Sikhism adopts Islam’s tenants, I think they forcibly trying to prove it just for their own agenda. Guru ji accepts their Allah as Allah who is not Vishnu or who incarnates; if Guru ji believed in Vashnava concept of Sargun from  who descends as avtars, he wouldn’t say those kings were created and who are considered His incarnations, that only is pretty big stand against any prevailed philosophy. Partially Guru ji is closer to Islam’s oneness of God who doesn’t incarnate, Fifth Nanak stresses on it by repeating His being Ajooni every where in SGGS Ji. As Guru ji detours from Hinduism, he detours from Islam too by accepting His Creation a part of Him unlike Islam. So I agree on that while disagreeing on the other claim.*
*Last comments on separate state, it  is all political, it has nothing to do with religion. Even if Sikhs get separate state, it will be very much corrupt one as I have seen all Sikhs in politics rarely any one follow Guru ji. Youth is being used and if you are aware of Dr Chuhan, so called founder of this moment, where did he land? There are a lot of Sikhs out there who do not support this idiotic thinking. After having said that, there are discriminating policies of central Govt. towards [/FONT]**Punjab[/FONT]** specially ( usually that thing happens with other states too if Govt. in power doesn’t represent them in any way). Preaching hatred towards any one, being Sikh, it is self inflicted disease that ends the goal of a Sikh. I must mention the role of fanatic Hindus and political parties who flame religious sentiments with many excuses in name of religion. Reactions are inevitable. If these fanatics so called Sikhs are doing that, fanatics Hindus are also in high gear to hurt the harmony most of the people want to have. Then why only one side needs to be criticized, criticize all culprits. Thanks for bearing with me.

 [/FONT]*


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## KulwantK (Aug 3, 2008)

"There is no Hindu, there is no Musselman,  there is only God."
Nanak is telling us that just because you may adopt a particular form on the outside, does not make you special in the eyes of the Divine, because each of us is already a precious child of the Divine, so there is no reason to be arguing about it.
     However, we human beings do need some sort of a structure.  Some need it more than others.  Guru knows that, and so did Nanak.  It all culminated with Guru Gobind Singh giving us the wonderful gifts he gave us; to enable others, no matter of what faith, to ask us for help when they needed it.
     Sikhism is not some sort of sect of either Hinduism or Islam.  It differs from both in some very distinct ways.  Sikhism does not accept the caste system, which is absolutely part and parcel of Hinduism.  Sikhism also holds women equal to men, which is not part of Islam.  
     When you are talking about such obvious and pervasive realities as gender and socio-economic status, you are talking about some very bench-mark distinctions.
     People can be content to split hairs, so to speak, about very detailed minutiae of where one or the other custom comes from, such as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, for example, but at the end of the day it boils down to the question of how do you want to live your life and most importantly, how do you want to carry on your most precious relationship; that of the Divine and yourself?  What sort of structure works for you?
     Many people want to say that Sikhism is a sect of this or that religion because, I think, they are, deep down, deathly afraid of the fact that Sikhs' only Sovreign is the Word of Guru; we will bow to no man (or woman, for that matter) because our relationship with God and Guru is the most important one, and that we are the only religious group that proclaims that ours is not necessarily the only path to the Divine.  One of our Gurus gave his life for the Hindus to practice their way to the Divine.  We also welcome anyone to Gurdwara; we turn no one away.  That, in itself, can be most scary to those of other religions.  It is an odd notion for them.  We do not, and never have, claimed to be "the Chosen ones" of God.  We believe all are chosen.  God loves everyone, so no reason to fight or be exclusive.  That idea is scary to many of other religions.
"If you can't see God in All
You can't see God at all."
Guru Nanak
Wahe Guru,
KulwantK


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2008)

nice thoughts Kulwant ji

but reading all 5 pages of this discussion,

i came across thoughts like-

"their Gods"

""our God"

"right way"


always sound funny to me


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> Now as stated by you” they have main Vishnu, Parbraham, one part of Vishnu incarnates as Sarguna . As people cannot contemplate on Nirgun, so by worshiping Sargun, people get mukti. As per your statement, Gurbani uses those names to contemplate on those names because it is hard to contemplate on Nirguna.


Vishnu is a term as well as a name.  Maha-Vishnu is referred to as Parameshwara, the Supreme Lord which is All-pervading the creation.  So in this context, this name is not of some demi-God, but of the Ek Omkar, who is Supreme and all-pervading.  If the Supreme God is all-pervading, then these demi-gods have to be seen in context as an aspect or element of something higher.  I did not say by worshipping the sargun, people get mukti.  That is a real distortion of what I said.  I said certain Vaishnavs worship the sarguna, but Gurbani clarifies that japping the Naam we focus on the nirguna who is beyond the form because these forms turn to dust.  What I said was we can't jap any Naams of the nirguna, because the nirguna is formless.  How can you name that which is formless?  You can't.  And that explains why Gurbani uses the names of sargun avataaras as names of the One All-pervading.

People get mukti, not from the Naams, but it is more complex.  Ek Omkar: Eko Brahman-Trimurthi-Creator.  The Primal One Parabrahm has created the sansaara through the mode of three gunas, also called the Trimurthi or Brahm, Mahes, Vishnu.  These demi-gods are part of the three gunas, and therefore in time, subject to Maya and duality.  They do not know the limits of the nirguna, because no one knows the limits of the nirguna.  "Only He Himself, knows Himself," Gurbani says.  The Om or AUM also represents the Trimurthi, but it has a nasal bindu on it, which represents the Nada.  This is the sound current of the Naad.  Ekaksara is also like a single syllable, while pranava is the reverberation of the syllable.  So from the Vedas we find the Ekaksara, which is the earliest description (later translated into Omkara), represents the vibration of sound which lies at the heart of creation.  The Shabda comes from the Naad.  We can't jap what the Naad is.  But we can jap the Shabad.  So in this way the Naam is related to the Shabad and also to vibration of the Naad.  So let's not get oversimplified in distorting teachings.


ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥ 
naam vasai this anehadh vaajae ||
the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​


ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.
~SGGS Ji p. 754​

By japping Naam you are uniting the consciousness with the sound current which is the heart of creation and the Creator Himself.  The sargun forms of the nirguna have no relevance, because it is the Divine Consciousness, the Jyot of the Nirguna which made the sargun forms purposeful, able to fulfill the hukam.  You say the Sikhs only have hukam, Vaishnavs don't have this concept.  As you admit you have limited knowledge of Vaishnav philosophy, I wonder why you continue to preach what is the Vaishnav philosophy and distort it all the time.  Does this make sense?  I'm surprised to be asked not to cite Wikepedia, yet the most unsupported denunciations of Hindu philosophy are made and no one puts these assertions on the "hotseat."  Yet any assertion of mine is run over several cliffs and then deleted or thread closed to moderate a particular viewpoint.  The oppositional views don't even bother to investigate what they are accusing.  They just label something or make an accusation, and this is accepted.  Yet I am asked for percentages, proofs, definitive and corroborative sources, etc.  How can anyone speak of fairness on this forum when I am moderated so much, and no one else is.




> Sikhs do not claim that only Sikhi brings union with Lord and they should not being respectful to His Hukam( another concept Vashnava doesn’t have), as they are being buried under avalounche of incarnated Gods, they have to cry hard to tell the world that they only believe in Infinite beyond birth, nothing more than that.



ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| 

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord. 

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna.  And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam.  So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command?  When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation?

And I don't see how anyone is buried under an avalanch of gods in the concept of avataara which Gurbani says the all-pervading took incarnation, descended into sansaara in these forms.  So it is only the One All-pervading.  That is why Raam, and Krishna are not demi-gods, but avataaras of the One All-pervading nirguna.




> As per your statement, Gurbani uses those names to contemplate on those names because it is hard to contemplate on Nirguna. If we go by this idea, we are in a mess, our attention is divided, Second Mehal calls it “ duality” he says” only one can be loved that is Nirguna.( Asa dee Vaar) All others who came through body met their end, only beyond is that Nirguna form which you say they believe it is not easy to contemplate on.


Our attention isn't divided to place on the Naam, because the Naam is vibrating the sound current of the Naad, meaning, the Naam is coming from higher dimensionality of the nirgun God Himself.  It isn't "hard" or "not easy" to contemplate on, unless we have reached the Fourth stage of consciousness, Turiya, it is impossible.  So how do we reach that stage?  We reach it by cleansing the sankalpas of mind and panj bhoots by japping the Naam.  This opens our spiritual sight so we may have darshan of the Vaheguru, and understanding, which we cannot penetrate duality until we have this understanding Brahm Jnana.  And how do we get this understanding?  Through Dhyaan and Simran of the Naam.  Until our atma becomes merged in the Paramatma, we can't perceive the nirguna or even approach the limits.  Once we are merged, we become Him.  "Only He Himself, knows Himself."

Yes, all the sargun forms have turned to dust.  It isn't the forms we worship, but the Divine Light pervading within them.



> Vashnavas also worship sargun form Krishna, in Geeta, Krishna says” I am God” also he says” I am son of Vasudeva( Lord) Gurbani accepts him as Sargun sroop but no where else it says” He was God or son of God,” as Krishna claims.


Vaishnavas are people like any other and many worship the sargun forms and idols.  But this is not taught in Vaishnava scriptures, so if we are analyzing the philosophy, as you mention in Bhagavad-Gita Krishna distinguishes that he is not some fellow, but Narayana Himself.  Now, you are objecting because Krishna is an avataar, someone who has taken birth and can't seem to reconcile the Advaitist philosophy of All-pervading One God present in His creation.  You say, _"Gurbani accepts him as Sargun sroop but no where else it says” He was God or son of God,” as Krishna claims." _


ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​


ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.  

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.  

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

Who assumed the form of Krishna?  According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant.



> I quote a few Guru Vaak here, just to see how those names are used for Nirgun not for sargun, the reason I say is that in Gurbani, Krishnas deceptive attitude is expressed, Ram’s ordinary man’s behavior is described, all other well known names are really not considered as guiding light for Sikhs. Here is Guru bachan unlike Vashnava’s complete philosophy ( as they say He comes in sargun srop to enlighten people), Gurbani stresses only on Nirguna



ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ 
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. 

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ 
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ 
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ 
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​


ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.  

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ 
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ 
aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3|| 

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ 
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606​


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ । 
nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa|
The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ । 
guru angadu guru ang tay gangahu jaanu tarang utdaaiaa|
In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges.

ਅਮਰਦਾਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਚਲਤੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ । 
amaradaasu guru angadahu joti saroop chalatu varataaiaa|
From Guru Angad came Guru Amar Das and the miracle of the transference of the light was seen by one and all.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਨਾਦਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । 
guru amarahu guru raamadaasu anahad naadahu sabadu sunaaiaa|
From Guru Amar Das, Guru Ram Das came into being in such a way as if the Word was from the unstruck sounds.
~Vaar 24 Pauri 25 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​
ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥ 
aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥ 
naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao ||
First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.
~SGGS Ji p. 1407​

~Bhul chak maaf


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> Sikhism is not some sort of sect of either Hinduism or Islam. It differs from both in some very distinct ways. Sikhism does not accept the caste system, which is absolutely part and parcel of Hinduism. Sikhism also holds women equal to men, which is not part of Islam.  When you are talking about such obvious and pervasive realities as gender and socio-economic status, you are talking about some very bench-mark distinctions.


Sikhism does accept the caste system, and in exactly the same way as Vaishnavism as I will explain.  Vaishnavism also reformed status of women.  Since Vaishnavism is a sect within Hinduism, and Vaishnavism can be proven to have made these _"benchmark distinctions"_ which you are claiming belong solely to Sikhism, then we have to let go of those distinctions, because they don't separate Sikhism from Vaishnavism.



ਆਪੇ ਤੰਤੁ ਪਰਮ ਤੰਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦਾਸੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
aapae thanth param thanth sabh aapae aapae thaakur dhaas bhaeiaa ||
He Himself is the supreme essence, He Himself is the essence of all. He Himself is the Lord and Master, and He Himself is the servant.

ਆਪੇ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਵਰਨ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਲਇਆ ॥ 
aapae dhas ath varan oupaaeian aap breham aap raaj laeiaa ||
He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain.

ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸੇ ਕਰੇ ਦਇਆ ॥ 
aapae maarae aapae shhoddai aapae bakhasae karae dhaeiaa ||
He Himself kills, and He Himself redeems; He Himself, in His Kindness, forgives us. He is infallible

ਆਪਿ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਨ ਭੁਲੈ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਸਭੁ ਸਚੁ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਸਚੁ ਥਿਆ ॥ 
aap abhul n bhulai kab hee sabh sach thapaavas sach thhiaa ||
- He never errs; the justice of the True Lord is totally True.
~SGGS Ji p. 553​

If Sikhism does not accept the caste system, per se, why does Gurbani say the Lord created the different castes?


ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਲਿ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗੋਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ ॥ 
so aisaa har sabhanaa kaa prabh sathigur kai val hai thin sabh varan chaarae khaanee sabh srisatt golae kar sathigur agai kaar kamaavan ko dheeeae ||
Such is God, the Lord of all; He is on the True Guru's side. All castes and social classes, the four sources of creation, and the whole universe are slaves of the True Guru; God makes them work for Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 851​


ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
har bhaaeiaa sathigur boliaa har miliaa purakh sujaan jeeo ||
The Lord was pleased as the True Guru spoke; he was blended then with the all-knowing Primal Lord God. 

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ 
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 923​

Gurbani is naming Guru Ram Das ji by His caste, Sodhi.  Why is this, if Sikhism doesn't accept caste?  Not only that, but Gurbani says Guruji placed a tilak mark on the forehead of Guru Ram Das Ji.  Why is that?  Why is Guru wearing a tilak mark?



ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ 
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~SGGS Ji p. 747​

If Gurbani rejects the caste system, why does it say there are castes?  It says there are castes, but in respect to the Guru's teachings, all are equal.  The reform of caste system to allow all castes including untouchables, Muslim converts and women comes from Vaishnavism.  The fact that bhagat bani comes from notable sants who were low caste such as Namdevji and Kabirji and these were also Vaishnav sants tells us that before Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message, a holy teaching about caste reform and equality was already underway.



> _From the twelfth century onwards a bhakti renaissance swept across India, bringing waves of devotional sentiment. Centres of devotion were rediscovered and revived in places such as Ayodhya and Vrindavana. The bhakti traditions broke through caste barriers and attracted millions of followers. Among the many bhakti saints are a number of notable women such as Andal and Mirabai.
> Heart of Hinduism: Vaishnavism_





> Other Vaishnava sects include the Ramavats, the Haridasis, Kabir Panthis and Dadu Panthis. The Ramavats were founded by Ramananda, a 14th century Shri Vaishnava teacher, who taught devotion to Vishnu's manifestation as Rama and dismissed the strong emphasis on caste and ritual typical of the Shri Vaishnavas. Kabir was a follower of Ramananda from Varanasi who, like his teacher, denied the significance of caste in the worship of God. He also condemned the worship of images and for this reason is respected by Muslims as well as Hindus. The followers of Kabir are known as Kabir Panthis and are today divided into twelve separate groups, each with their own centre and leadership. One disciple of Kabir was Dadu who like his predecessor condemned the caste institution, the worship of images and all external features of piety, stating that love and devotion to the one God was the only valid form of religiosity.
> General Essay on Hindu Devotional Groups





ਹੋਇ ਬਿਰਕਤੁ ਬਨਾਰਸੀ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਰਾਮਾਨਦੁ ਗੁਸਾਈਂ । 
hoi birakatu banaarasee rahindaa raamaanadu gusaaeen|
Being detached from the world, Brahmin Ramanand lived in Varanasi (Kasi). 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵੇਲੇ ਉਠਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਗੰਗਾ ਨ੍ਹਾਵਣ ਤਾਈਂ । 
anmritu vaylay utdi kai jaandaa gangaa nhaavan taaeen|
He would rise early in the morning and go to the Ganges to bathe.

ਅਗੋ ਹੀ ਦੇ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਲਮਾ ਪਿਆ ਕਬੀਰ ਤਿਥਾਈਂ । 
ago hee day jaai kai|amaa piaa kabeer tidaaeen|
Once even before Ramanand, Kabir went there and lay in the way. 

ਪੈਰੀ ਟੁੰਬਿ ਉਠਾਲਿਆ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਖ ਸਮਝਾਈ । 
pairee tunbi utdaaliaa bolahu raam sikh samajhaaee|
Touching with his feet Ramanand awakened Kabir and told him to speak ‘Ram’, the true spiritual teaching.  

ਜਿਉ ਲੋਹਾ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਛੁਹੇ ਚੰਦਨ ਵਾਸੁ ਨਿਮੁ ਮਹਕਾਈ । 
jiu|ohaa paarasu chhuhay chandan vaasu nimu mahakaaee|
As the iron touched by philosopher’s stone becomes gold and the margosa tree (Azadirachta indica) is made fragrant by sandal.

ਪਸੂ ਪਰੇਤਹੁ ਦੇਵ ਕਰਿ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ । 
pasoo paraytahu dayv kari pooray satigur dee vadiaaee|
The wondrous Guru turns even animals and ghosts into angels.

ਅਚਰਜ ਨੋ ਅਚਰਜੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੈ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਈ । 
acharaj no acharaju milai visamaadai visamaadu milaaee|
Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord.

ਝਰਣਾ ਝਰਦਾ ਨਿਝਰਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅਘੜ ਘੜਾਈ । 
jharanaa jharadaa nijharahu guramukhi baanee agharh gharhaaee|
Then from the Self springs a fountain and the words of the gurmukhs shape a beautiful form

ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰੈ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੧੫॥ 
raam kabeerai bhaydu n bhaaee ॥15॥
Now Ram and Kabir became identical.
~Vaar 10 Pauri 15 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

Here vaaran is describing Ramanand ji as a Brahmin, and also as a Guru who enlightened Bhagat Kabir ji.  So the quality of being a brahmin alone is not negated in Sikh teaching.  Why is vaaran describing Ramanand Ji as a wondrous Guru of the wondrous Lord?  Curious since he was not a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, yet clearly a Hindu Guru who is also a Brahmin, can be enlightened.  It does say something that Ramanand Ji passed transmission to Kabir Ji, since Kabir Ji was born a Muslim and hence low or no caste.  So a Brahmin sant did not recognize caste distinctions as excluding someone from full equality in spirituality.  As we see, Ramanand was a Vaishnav sant, as was Kabir Ji, who japped Raam Naam, and these became Gurumukhs and enlightened, so Hindu's can also reach the God with bhakti and Gur-shishya and Naam jap, as do Sikhs.  As I have said before, where Gurbani is listing hypocrisy and corruptions it is not making Hindu religion into an evil thing, only showing how religion can become corrupted and false.  Just as Gurbani says there can be holy brahmins, yogis, siddhas, and demi-gods.  We shouldn't read into Gurbani that every Hindu, every brahmin, every yogi is evil and corrupted.  (As has been mentioned on this post).




> Many people want to say that Sikhism is a sect of this or that religion because, I think, they are, deep down, deathly afraid of the fact that Sikhs' only Sovreign is the Word of Guru; we will bow to no man (or woman, for that matter) because our relationship with God and Guru is the most important one, and that we are the only religious group that proclaims that ours is not necessarily the only path to the Divine. One of our Gurus gave his life for the Hindus to practice their way to the Divine.




ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.
Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 131​
Whose tilak mark and creed did Guruji protect?  It does not say Hindu's.  It says His own creed, to protect saints.  This is a dramatically different interpretation.

If we do not bow to anyone, except the God and Guru, why does Gurbani say this?

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁ ॥ 
bhaaee rae santh janaa kee raen ||
O Siblings of Destiny, become the dust of the feet of the humble Saints.
~SGGS Ji p. 18​
ਤਿਨਾ ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਦ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਜੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
thinaa bhagath janaa ko sadh namasakaar keejai jo anadhin har gun gaavaniaa ||1|| rehaao ||
I humbly bow to those devotees who chant the Glorious Praises of the Lord, night and day. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 123​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

Since the implementation of this guideline:



> "We do not accept direct or indirect attacks on the individuality of Sikhism. Any posts deemed to be doing so will be removed from the forum without notice."



I would like to add that my posts have been deleted and threads closed.  Since I am trying to analyze the Gurbani directly, I don't see how it can be an attack against the identity of Sikhism.  As you impose this word "individuality" that becomes a matter of interpretation.  Obviously Guruji is Guruji and Gurbani is Gurbani and this is individual.  But where Gurbani uses Sanskrit terms and Vedic or Upanishadic definitions, or where there is already known and accepted Vaishnav influence through bhagat bani, I fail to understand why an analysis or opinion of these historical factors in conjuction with Gurbani amount to any kind of "attack."  Rather it becomes a disagreement with a prevailing perception of Sikhism as independant of and completely unique without any historical Indic spiritual context, as relationship to Vedas and Upanishads.  And that is not an attack, it is a different opinion.  As sanatan Sikhs do exist within the Panth such as Nirmalas and Nihangs, it begs the question why a sanatan viewpoint is being moderated and silenced in order to promote the non-sanatan view only.  Where people ask for equality and balance in views represented, these should come from genuine alternate opinions, and not mockery or attacks against my own, or against Hindu Dharam.

Thank you.


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2008)

*How did the Belief-O-Matic do? *


These are the results I got.


Beliefnet: Belief-O-Matic, Religion Beliefs, What Religion Am I Quiz -- Beliefnet.com 



*1. **Hinduism  (100%) **
2. **Sikhism  (100%) **
3. **Unitarian Universalism  (85%) 
**4. **Neo-Pagan  (84%) **
5. **Scientology  (84%) 
**6. **New Thought  (79%) **
7. **Reform Judaism  (77%) **
8. **Mahayana Buddhism  (74%) **
9. **New Age  (72%) **1
0. **Orthodox Judaism  (70%) **
11. **Liberal Quakers  (69%) **
12. **Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist)  (65%) **
13. **Jainism  (60%) **
14. **Bahá'í Faith  (55%) **
15. **Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants  (54%) **
16. **Theravada Buddhism  (53%) 
**17. **Islam  (52%) 
**18. **Taoism  (48%) **
19. **Eastern Orthodox  (41%
**21. **Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant  (40%) **
22. **Orthodox Quaker  (40%) **
23. **Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)  (39%) **
24. **Secular Humanism  (32%) **
25. **Seventh Day Adventist  (30%) **
26. **Jehovah's Witness  (17%) **
27. **Nontheist  (15%)*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> 1. Hinduism (100%) 2. Sikhism (100%)


Okay, Namjap ji made me laugh.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 3, 2008)

i'm hardly a sikh by these measures





http://ad.doubleclick.net/click;h=v...?http://www.beliefnet.com/games/bn_games.aspx *1. **Neo-Pagan (100%) **2. **New Age (97%) **3. **Mahayana Buddhism (92%) **4. **Unitarian Universalism (84%) **5. **Liberal Quakers (79%) **6. **Taoism (79%) **7. **Theravada Buddhism (78%) **8. **Scientology (77%) **9. **New Thought (72%) **10. **Hinduism (63%) **11. **Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (63%) **12. **Jainism (61%) **13. **Secular Humanism (56%) **14. **Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (56%) **15. **Orthodox Quaker (54%) **16. **Reform Judaism (49%) **17. **Sikhism (46%) **18. **Bahá'í Faith (37%) **19. **Nontheist (30%) **20. **Orthodox Judaism (27%) **21. **Seventh Day Adventist (22%) **22. **Islam (19%) **23. **Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (19%) **24. **Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (17%) **25. **Jehovah's Witness (11%) **26. **Eastern Orthodox (9%) **27. **Roman Catholic (9%) *


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2008)

Amarsanghera Ji,

Doesn't this tell you not to rely on computers too much ? I was going thru how the computer plays chess in three ways. Anyway, don't let a computer form your belief system. 

Warning: Belief-O-Matic™ assumes no legal liability for the ultimate fate of your soul.:inca:


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## Astroboy (Aug 3, 2008)

Harjas Ji,

Aren't you taking the meanings of SGGS too literally.

By a mention of the 4 varans, doesn't give the seal that Sikhism supports the division. As you know Sikhism had 10 human Gurus. It took 10 Gurus to provide the structure and essence of SGGS with the addition of other authors. This couldn't be possible with Guru Nanak's lifespan alone. In the realm of Time and Space, the laws of nature takes the stronghold. The teachings had to unfold in stages. 

Do you agree or disagree ?


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## pk70 (Aug 3, 2008)

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.
 ~SGGS Ji p. 754

*Here Bhain ji you are only looking at Brahma, Bisan, Mahesa as part of HIS body but over looking” sabh utpat sansaara”, that is also part of His body, why we should stuck only with Brahma, Bisan and Mahes. Isnt it same Mahes in yesterday quotes described as helpless? I wonder why only names are picked up and distorted the whole message*
  By japping Naam you are uniting the consciousness with the sound current which is the heart of creation and the Creator Himself. The sargun forms of the nirguna have no relevance, because it is the Divine Consciousness, the Jyot of the Nirguna which made the sargun forms purposeful, able to fulfill the hukam. You say the Sikhs only have hukam, Vaishnavs don't have this concept. As you admit you have limited knowledge of Vaishnav philosophy, I wonder why you continue to preach what is the Vaishnav philosophy and distort it all the time. Does this make sense? I'm surprised to be asked not to cite Wikepedia, yet the most unsupported denunciations of Hindu philosophy are made and no one puts these assertions on the "hotseat." Yet any assertion of mine is run over several cliffs and then deleted or thread closed to moderate a particular viewpoint. The oppositional views don't even bother to investigate what they are accusing. They just label something or make an accusation, and this is accepted. Yet I am asked for percentages, proofs, definitive and corroborative sources, etc. How can anyone speak of fairness on this forum when I am moderated so much, and no one else is.
*You are knowledgeable Bhain ji about Vashnava, I am not and I don’t feel to learn about them, Guru Nanak door is enough for me, all others are  immaterial for me; however, being knowledgeable of Vashnva, kindly define the same concept of Hukam as in found in Gurbani. To my knowledge, you never addressed it. What you did was that avatars come under His hukam, that is very naive expression of concept of  Hukam repeatedly stressed in Gurbani. Hukam word doesn’t exist in their dictionary as I read an article on Vashnava.*
*Lets see the following Guru Vaak in context of totality of Guru Message( I deleted some to make it short idea is still there*
ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
[/FONT]ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
 [/FONT] The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
*All above, Guru ji defines His Sargun form, when He is in His nature, how the names mentioned above can be different from Him. Issue is not that, issue is whom, Sikhs are advised to worship?  Guru ji is giving example after example that all you guys are talking about, and giving credit to them, actually He is the one who does so. Numerous times we discussed that, Sargun Sroop is not  worth worshiping as we do Him as per Gurbani because Gurbani also look at them differently as Ram’s Cries, and krishana’s deception, Shiva’s frustration. Obviously stress is on His infinity, any one see other than that, I swear, has ignored the idea  expressed in Guru message  in totality. I am not boasting, the more I read SGGS Ji, the more pictures became clear. Pining for  the Infinite is advocated. His beyond birth is stressed through out SGGS Ji.*

  We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna. And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam. So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command? When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation?
*If for a second I agree with you, how you will define the following, you read it but don’t remember it*
ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ ਅਮਰੁਅਜੋਨੀਜਾਤਿਨਜਾਲਾ॥ਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰੁਰੂਪੁਨਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
The first (Lunar day): The Unique Lord is Peerless, Immortal,Unborn, and without caste and involvement. He is Unapproachable and Unapprehensible and has no form or outline. Searching and searching, I have seen Him in all the hearts. Devoted am I unto him, who sees and makes others see the Lord. By Guru's grace I have obtained the Supreme status. 
*How come Bhain ji Guru ji denies His being coming in to bodies, to understand this mystery, lets take example of Air. Air is in you, in me and is every where,  the air in you and me is also every where, how you or me can claim it is only in us. His pervading in His creation is like that. When Guru ji describes His creation, he uses words to convey His presence in these all mentioned above but continuously Guru ji says” don’t get wrong, He is Ajooni(beyond birth)” Why? So that we should not stuck with avatarvad and forget the Real One. It is that simple. If Gurbani considered [/FONT]**Krishna[/FONT]** as God, it wouldn’t question [/FONT]**Krishna[/FONT]**’s deception but it did. So [/FONT]* *all the cries here are due to misunderstanding Concept of God and His presence in His creation.*
  Yes, all the sargun forms have turned to dust. It isn't the forms we worship, but the Divine Light pervading within them.
*When you say divine light pervading in those guys and that is what is worshiped , how you can avoid stories attached to them while contemplating on them. Wouldnt it be deceiving yourself because Infinite is more attached with calm compared to Sargun Form;  who contemplate on Rama, they know what they are doing, all Rama and the story attached to him stays in mind, same case is with Krishna. why even we need to remember those who turned dust, why just not bring smiling flowers in mind to smell His fragrance, His amazing creation, His being infinite beyond space, why those guys with so disgusting stories we should use as aid to recite His Naam? Is it necessary? Is this way only enlightenment occurs.*
*Below are your quotes Bhain ji, lets see if they say what you have been advocating or what Guru Nanak says*
ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ 
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.
*Here the translator uses” Lord” with Krishna, you think it is all about Krishna( may be he also thinks that way) but it is not, lets see why, see the next  blow Vaak, Vasudeva is not krishan, Krishna himself says in Bhagvat Geeta that” I am son of Vasudeva”, we take meaning of Krishanan( Bhai Veer Singh, DR Sahib Singh, Manmohan Singh, Bhai Kahan Singh ) asThe Lord”, now in next Vaak, Guru says if any one understands the difference of soul and soul of God, I am, his slave and he is like pure Lord. Here Krishan word is not used for **Krishna** of Geeta but the Lord Himself.  *
ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ 
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469
*Now lets look at your quote below*
ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| [/FONT]NOTE word is “ banave” means create not assume No wonder misunderstanding continues
[/FONT]ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.
 [/FONT] ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. , 
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||
ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
  Who assumed the form of Krishna? According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant.
*Bhain ji if you see here only Krishna  in above Guru Vaak  but not Him as a whole sargun form, read the following, Guru ji says, He is fish, fisherman, net and  bait. Should we consider by the same token fish also a guiding light because Guru said He is in her too. Tragedy is this, Gurbani is not understood in totality. Gurbani keeps telling about all known or unknown as His Sargun form but inspires the followers to move on, only some Vashnava can stuck to incarnations but not true Gurbani followers . Kindly read it this time*
ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
My Master is dyed with love and is fully pervading every where. Pause. 
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਛੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਾਲੁ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲੁ ॥੨॥ 
He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within. *Now let’s see what the following quotes say in fact considering one fact that it is not verse but poetry*
ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. 
[/FONT]ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ 
[/FONT] ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ 
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
 [/FONT] The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.
 ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ 
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606
*Again whatever is expressed above is about His Infinity and His Sargun form, His presence in Sargun Form and His power, all credit given to Sargun Form; however, people  gave credit to those individuals only and thought they were God. I do not see any thing that can prove Guru ji sending us to those named above. He creates **Krishna**, He creates Gopi as He is in Fish, fisherman, net. Guru ji also says He is behind all show, what is new here? What does it prove?*
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ । 
nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa|
The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms.
*Bhain ji, poor translator translates” banaeea= to make” in to “assume”, that can give you wrong signal, do not depend on him Here Formless Lords’ blessings are expressed, He created Nanak*
ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ । 
guru angadu guru ang tay gangahu jaanu tarang utdaaiaa|
In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges.
*again, Ganges hasn’t created any thing, translator is just struggling but failed to convey message, in simple words Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad as of his own part, means worthy of that jyot Formless put in Guru Nanak by the Lord
* ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥ 
aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.
*Bhain ji, "oudavio" means to come in to light but it doesn’t mean taking birth*
*It should be” Self existent Creator shown up light in this world, or came into light, incarnation is not discussed here.( He has mediums why would He take birth?)*
ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥ 
naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao ||
First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.
~SGGS Ji p. 1407
ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. 
*Again Bhat Kall is saying it is the same light Lord put back in Ram and Krishna, same light is in Guru Nanak and other Gurus, Guru Nanak also writes that” oh God there was time when Ram, Krishna were worshiped as you, now those names are [/FONT]* *replaced with Islamic ones. What Guru ji says is simple” All is His play” All religions are created by Him, all founders of religions are created by Him. Nothing is beyond His Ordinance. Bhat Nall is just complimenting God and Guru. Just comparing light with others well known in so called tertai Yug*
ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
*To understand this, one must not take these verses as astrology statement from Bhat ji. Here basically Guru ji  is not just simple individual but like all worshiped people in the past.
*ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ 
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390
*You see here, it comes down to Him, Sikhism has a beauty of glorifying Him even as Sant or Guru. Guru ji himself credits every thing to HIM for every thing including their panth, teachings.*
*Following is taken( you quoted) from Sad written by Sunder ji at the time of passing away of Third Nanak, here caste system’s is not addressed at all, to take Sodhi word and negate the fundamental principle of Sikhism is totally wrong.  I shall prove you below*
ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
har bhaaeiaa sathigur boliaa har miliaa purakh sujaan jeeo ||
The Lord was pleased as the True Guru spoke; he was blended then with the all-knowing Primal Lord God. 

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ 
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 923

Gurbani is naming Guru Ram Das ji by His caste, Sodhi. Why is this, if Sikhism doesn't accept caste? Not only that, but Gurbani says Guruji placed a tilak mark on the forehead of Guru Ram Das Ji. Why is that? Why is Guru wearing a tilak mark?
*If Sunder Ji uses Guru’s last name does it mean Guru believe in caste system? Facts are otherwise, either you are wrong or Guru and Sunder ji who wrote this are wrong as per your claim. Guru cannot be wrong, let me prove it with evidence*
*Guru ji named his sons but didn’t use last name either for himself or for his own sons, other Singhs followed that because Caste system was rejected , every one drank from same pot during Amrit ceremony, that was total [/FONT]* *revolution,       High class of Sodhis or others were      totally neglected. Denial has no merit.*

*Very      clearly below  Bhai Gurdas ji  says that caste system  was turned into one caste, if any one is      determined to ignore that, noting can be done*
 *Read the following by Bhai Gurdas Ji on Caste system, why he is saying that? Is he assuming or really following what he learnt while staying close to Guru*
8  *ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ **। 
sunee pukaari daataar prabhu guru naanak jag maahi patdaaiaa|
The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.
……………………………………………………………….
*Line  *3   **ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ **। 
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).
Line  4   **ਰਾਣਾ ਰੰਕੁ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਵਣਾ ਜਗਿ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ **। 
raanaa ranku baraabaree pairee paavanaa jagi varataaiaa|
Equating the poor with the prince, he spread the etiquette of humbly touching the feet.
 Line  7   **ਕਲਿ ਤਾਰਣਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਇਆ **॥**੨੩**॥ 
kali taarani guru naanaku aaiaa **॥23**॥
Guru Nanak came to redeem the kaliyug.
Who did reject caste system first time in Indian History in so massive way? Sanatani or Vashnava? NO, only Sikh Gurus did, they deserve that credit, please.*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> _Harjas Ji,
> 
> Aren't you taking the meanings of SGGS too literally.
> 
> ...


Either we believe in Gurbani or we don't.  No, I don't accept that Guruji (One Jyot in 10 physical forms founded a "new religion" which defined itsef as being against caste system, yet Guru Ramdas Ji is described in Gurbani by caste.  Yet, somehow this means there was a gradual evolution of this distinction of this new religious movement which would eventually, though not unequivocally stated in Gurbani, amount to rejection of the caste system they had formerly acknowledged as being a design of the God.)  You can't just accept some things and reject others, and then add interpretations which aren't there to create your own philosophy and call it Guruji's Sikhism.  

If I believed Sikhism had 10 "only" human Gurus, then they would have only arguable opinion.  How could we then accept Guruship of such "confused" teachings of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which change and evolve over time according to who was the author of the particular bani?  And the answer is, Shri Guru Granth Sahib is not merely some book written by mere men with meaningless phrases which I can refute or discard ad lib.  Clearly, either SGGS Ji is the Divine Shabad-Jyot, Guru in every page, or it is simply a piece of literature.  I accept that it is the Divine Jyot, and it is our human understandings which oversimplify, and add on to what we haven't analyzed or understood properly or within context.  Even this is too weak a point of debate.  If Sikhism defines itself as contrary to Hinduism on the basis of rejecting caste differences, how can you explain why the Guru (SGGS Ji) after 10 forms and several bhagats could not manage to clearly state this? 

Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains the Shabad-Jyot of Guruji (Nanak 1) which is consciousness merged with Timeless God.  I find it astounding, that on so critical a point as people assert without analysis, that Sikhism doesn't believe or doesn't accept caste system.  Yet we know the Guru's physical forms all married within their caste, and even caste of Guru is mentioned in Gurbani.  Are you implying this was an accident?  The fact is, there are many inconsistencies like this, including the historical pattern among Sikhs to uphold and marry within their caste.  Sikhs will traditionally marry their children to a Hindu of the same caste, than a Sikh of a different caste.  So certainly on many points besides the Gurbani, socio-historical points, the illusion that caste divides Sikhism from Hinduism has no foundation.

So in analyzing such "controversial" tuuks of Gurbani, we can reconcile them to show that Guruji accepted that caste system is part of the order designed by God.  But the caste system _*is*_ broken and unjust, even Hindus will acknowledge that.  The reformers within Hinduism say the caste/varna/occupational system has become corrupted to a form of hereditary social injustice.  Originally, varna, which means "color" applied to one's temperament and inclination.  And according to such temperament and aspiration, one could devote oneself to God and become, a Brahmin, regardless of caste.  That is the Vaishnav philosophy.

“All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal.”  ~Rig Veda​

ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥ 
adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae ||
The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.
~SGGS Ji p. 381​
As per Vaishnav tradition, anyone who japs the Naams of God with bhakti, regardless of caste distinctions, becomes equal to a brahmin.


> As per shloka numbered IV (13) of the Bhagavad Gita, depending upon a person’s guna (aptitude) and karma (actions), there are four varnas. As per this shloka, a person’s varna is determined by his guna and karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of the Bhagavad Gita specifies three gunas viz. satva (purity), rajas (passion and attachment) and tamas (ignorance). These three gunas are present in every human in different proportions, and determine the varna of every person. Hinduism does not permit caste system



ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸੰਗਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਜਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਆਗਮ ਸਾਸ ਸੁਨੇ ॥ 
panddith sang vasehi jan moorakh aagam saas sunae ||
The fool may live with the Pandit, the religious scholar, and listen to the Vedas and the Shaastras.

ਅਪਨਾ ਆਪੁ ਤੂ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਛੋਡਸਿ ਸੁਆਨ ਪੂਛਿ ਜਿਉ ਰੇ ॥੪॥ 
apanaa aap thoo kabahu n shhoddas suaan pooshh jio rae ||4||
You can never escape your own inner tendencies, like the crooked tail of the dog. ||4||

ਇਕਿ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਰਾਚਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਰੇ ॥ 
eik paakhanddee naam n raachehi eik har har charanee rae ||
Some are hypocrites; they do not merge with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Some are absorbed in the Feet of the Lord, Har, Har. 

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਵਸਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਰੇ ॥੫॥੪॥ 
poorab likhiaa paavas naanak rasanaa naam jap rae ||5||4||
The mortals obtain what they are predestined to receive; O Nanak, with your tongue, chant the Naam. ||5||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 990​

Our tendancies cling to us and determine our temperament and level of spiritual jeevan.  This is the original definition of caste/varna system.



> _Devotion concentrated on He absolves even the Svapakas (who cook and eat the flesh of dogs) from stigma attaching to their birth’.(Bhagavata Purana,XI.14). _To protect Hinduism from baneful effects of ritualism different Acharyas gave new interpretations of Upanishadic doctrines. Acharyas like Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Madhva and Vallabha emphasized on devotion to a personal god as the way of liberation. Personal god in the form of Vishnu or Krishna or Rama is regarded as being responsible for the creation, preservation and destruction of the universe. It is not the number of religious observances nor the richness of materials used for worship but the sincerity, the faith and the sense of complete surrender to one’s personal god is the essence of bhakti. Age, sex, caste or any other social identity does not come in between a true devotee and his god.VAISHNAVITE MOVEMENTS




ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮ ਕੁਲ ਸੰਜੁਗਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ 
khatt karam kul sanjugath hai har bhagath hiradhai naahi ||
One who performs the six religious rituals and comes from a good family, but who does not have devotion to the Lord in his heart,

ਚਰਨਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਨ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁਪਚ ਤੁਲਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥੧॥ 
charanaarabindh n kathhaa bhaavai supach thul samaan ||1||
one who does not appreciate talk of the Lord's Lotus Feet, is just like an outcaste, a pariah. ||1|| 

ਰੇ ਚਿਤ ਚੇਤਿ ਚੇਤ ਅਚੇਤ ॥ 
rae chith chaeth chaeth achaeth ||
Be conscious, be conscious, be conscious, O my unconscious mind.  

ਕਾਹੇ ਨ ਬਾਲਮੀਕਹਿ ਦੇਖ ॥ 
kaahae n baalameekehi dhaekh ||
Why do you not look at Baalmeek?

ਕਿਸੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਕਿਹ ਪਦਹਿ ਅਮਰਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao ||
From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause||

ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥ 
suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth ||
The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna. 

ਲੋਗੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਸਰਾਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ ॥੨॥ 
log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2||
See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1124​


> Several critics of Hinduism state that the caste system is rooted in the varna system mentioned in the ancient Hindu scriptures.[18] However, many groups, such as ISKCON, consider the modern Indian caste system and the varna system as two distinct concepts.[19][20] Many European scholars from the colonial era regarded the Manusmriti as the "law book" of the Hindus, and thus concluded that the caste system is a part of Hinduism, an assertion that is rejected by many Hindu scholars, who state that it is an anachronistic social practice, not a religious one.[21][22][23][24]
> 
> Although many Hindu scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of Hinduism. The Vedas place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only rarely and in a cursory manner. In the Vedic period, there was no prohibition against the Shudras (which later on became the low-castes) listening to the Vedas or participating in any religious rite...[25]
> 
> ...



ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਮਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥ 
raamaanandh suaamee ramath breham ||
Raamaanand's Lord and Master is the All-pervading Lord God. 

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਾਟੈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ ॥੩॥੧॥ 
gur kaa sabadh kaattai kott karam ||3||1||
The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 1195​ 


> ...they both point to the importance of Ramanandis, and particularly Ramanandis in the Jaipur region, in the formation of soldiering orders among Vaishnavas. That a Vaishnava call to arms should have been associated with the increased influence of Ramanandis is not surprising, since the social liberalism that is associated with Ramanand would have facilitated the process of military recruitment by opening monastic ranks to the lowly.  This point is underlined in Ayodhya itself, where a banner emblazoned with Swami Ramanand’s famous admonition against inequality—“Ask not of caste and the like, if you love God you belong to God”—decorates the entrance to the Hanuman Garhi, the main headquarters of Vaishnava soldier monasticism in north India...
> 
> In the 1720s and until his death in 1743, Maharaja Jai Singh II evinced a strong interest in religious affairs, particularly religious affairs having to do with the Vaishnava institutions in his realm.  And, not unlike Warren Hastings a half century later, Jai Singh II apparently looked askance at the phenomenon of armed monasticism and sought to discourage it. To this end, he solicited and received four separate bond agreements containing pledges from prominent Vaishnava mahants, nine of whom identify themselves clearly as “Ramanandi,” to give up the practice of keeping arms and to boycott or otherwise punish those who continued to do so.
> 
> ...



So how did Sikh Guru's feel about caste?  From Gurbani they didn't reject or dissociate from it outright.  It's true purpose within social and spiritual circles is clarified as a point of anti-discrimination against a brotherhood of man which was a true revolutionary reform, although one which transpired within context of a larger and older Vaishnav reform.  Hence I must reject caste system as a _point of departure_ between the philosophy of Guru Nanak and Hinduism, rather than within context of a reform movement against social injustices of ritualized corruptions which Vaishnava sampradyas of the time, were also against.


ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 349​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> Here Bhain ji you are only looking at Brahma, Bisan, Mahesa as part of HIS body but over looking” sabh utpat sansaara”, that is also part of His body, why we should stuck only with Brahma, Bisan and Mahes.


Ek Om Kar.  One Trimurthi Creator.  The One All-pervading nirguna creates the sarguna, Trimurthi (Three gods Vishnu, Brahma, Mahesh), which includes the nasal bindu expressing this was out of the unstruck sound current of the Nada, and out of the three gunas of the Trimurthi, created the whole of sansaara.  The Vedic definitions of Ekakshara or Omkara include that the All-pervading Primary One Parabrahm subsumes the Trimurthi and all creation within His body.  So I fail to grasp what is overlooked in the Vedic definition.  It is after all, a definition of the totality of the One (Eko Brahman) All-Pervading.



> kindly define the same concept of Hukam as in found in Gurbani. To my knowledge, you never addressed it. What you did was that avatars come under His hukam, that is very naive expression of concept of Hukam repeatedly stressed in Gurbani. Hukam word doesn’t exist in their dictionary as I read an article on Vashnava.



_Hukam is a Punjabi word derived from the Arabic hukm, meaning "command" or "order."_

Naturally, the exact word will not appear in Sanskrit or Hindi, but this doesn't mean there is no equivalent concept in translation for "order/command of God for the disciple."  Both Sikhism and Vaishnavism were military orders veer ji.



> The Kapilas inscription of Narashimhadeva, record that the king was the devotee of God Purushottama Jagannatha identified with Vishnu. He is described as Purushottama Putro and compare him with great Boar (Vaishnu in his Varaha Avatara) incarnation.  Further the charter describe that the king succeeded in subduing by the power of his arms the pride of his enemies in numerous battles *at the command of the God Purushottam, the Lord of the fourteen worlds.*  In the Draksharama temple inscriptions, Anangabhima III himself is called both Paramavaishnava and Paramamahesvara as well as Purushottama putra, Rudra-putra and Durga putra.
> Vaishnavism in Orissan Inscriptions


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
> mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
> By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
> ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
> ...


This doesn't even make sense, "giving credit to _them_."  It's not like the nirguna is "True" God, and the sarguna is something else.  The sarguna is  _"created saroop"_ since nirguna has no saroop, but is still Jyot of the One nirguna.  Even the Vaishnavs worship Krishna and Raam BECAUSE they are the nirguna manifestated in sansaara.  Or how else would the Naam of the avataaras have any potency to be _shabad Naam of the Naad_, nirguna?  Veer ji, when you are japping the Naams of the sargun manifestation as a boat of mukti, this says something about the _intricate relationship between sarguna and nirguna of the All-pervading Unborn One._ They are the same One being, one in form and one without which subsumes within itself the sarguna.  The fact that Sikhs are enjoined to jap the Naams of sargun manifestations, which Gurbani calls _incarnations of the nirgun God_, with devotion, bhakti is really no difference.  Both schools of philosophy acknowledge the sarguna is transient and the nirguna is permanent.  Both schools acknowledge the nirguna is the One All-pervaiding Unborn Supreme. 

It is a hallmark of Vaishnavism to have belief in the avataars of the nirguna.  It is hallmark of Vaishnavism to jap the sargun Naams of God with bhakti to obtain moksha.  Please explain where Sikhism_ is so radically distinct_ in this regard as to realistically qualify itself as a new religion.  I've been waiting to hear the radically new spiritual teachings within Gurbani, and not over-generalizing  social differences such as idols, caste and corruption, which equally, to a degree can be seen within Sikhism today.  All sects have their differences, while remaining true to the general outline of original source scriptures.  The source of the teachings of _sargun avataars of One All-pervading nirguna_, and _Naam jap bhakti_ and _sankirtana_, are the Vaishnava Upanishads.  To me, it is hair-splitting to judge whether Vaishnavs are _"worshipping sarguna"_  and "Sikhs are _worshipping nirguna_" despite the fact that both are devotionally japping the same Naams of sarguna, because it implies Sikhs are "spiritual" and Vaishnavs are "corrupted."  I feel that is an inaccurate and artificial imposition based on ethnocentric prejudice of preferring Sikhism to Vaishnavism.  I really don't believe we can judge people's individual intentions this way.  Vaishnavas are "monotheistic" and "Dvaitic," because they worship the nirguna and not the demi-gods.  They are "pantheistic" and "Advaitic" because they believe that One is pervading all creation, including the demi-gods and avataaras, and everything is actually only He.




> Numerous times we discussed that, Sargun Sroop is not worth worshiping as we do Him as per Gurbani because Gurbani also look at them differently as Ram’s Cries, and krishana’s deception, Shiva’s frustration.  Obviously stress is on His infinity, any one see other than that, I swear, has ignored the idea expressed in Guru message in totality. I am not boasting, the more I read SGGS Ji, the more pictures became clear. Pining for the Infinite is advocated. His beyond birth is stressed through out SGGS Ji.


Again, as you acknowledge you don't have knowledge of actual Vaishnav teaching, yet persist in trying to correct it's deficiencies or compare it with Sikhism, I must bring to your attention that Shiva is not an avataara, but a demi-god, and Vaishnava sampradhya disapproves of his worship as nirgun Narayana.  So this is another example of where you make careless mistakes in defining what Vaishnavism is.  Vaishnavism is NOT about worship of the demi-gods, but worship of the One Unborn who incarnates in His avataaras.  It is not the sargun physicality of the avataaras which is worshipped, but the All-pervading One Jyot which is manifesting through them.  Please stop distorting what Vaishnavism actually teaches in some pretense of differences between Vaishnav philosophy and Sikhism. :{-

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.
~SGGS Ji p. 470​
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
rovai raam nikaalaa bhaeiaa ||
Rama wept when he was sent into exile,
~SGGS Ji p. 953​Does Gurbani say that Raam and Krishna are any less the Supreme Lord God because of these descriptions?  No!  So why are we making artificial distinctions between the sargun saroop and the nirguna which Gurbani doesn't even make?



ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥ 
kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥ 
pehil purasaabiraa ||
First of all, there was only the Primal Being. 

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥ 
athhon purasaadhamaraa ||
From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.  

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥ 
asagaa as ousagaa ||
All that is, is His. 
~SGGS Ji p. 693​

There can be no doubt Gurbani recognizes the Unborn and undying nirguna as being Himself incarnate in the Sargun saroop of the das avtaaras.  All the rest is just argumentation and refusal to accept it.   Hence not only does Gurbani praise the sarguna as being manifestation of the nirguna, it positively clarifies that the sargun saroop of the avataaras are the Lord Himself which the Sikh worships.


ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ 
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ 
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ 
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ 
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ 
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ 
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. 

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.  

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| 

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. 

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.  

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||  

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.  

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ 
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.  

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||  

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ 
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed. 

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||  

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes. 

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.  

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds. 

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

~Bhul chak maaf


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> _We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna. And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam. So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command? When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation?
> If for a second I agree with you, how you will define the following, you read it but don’t remember it_
> 
> ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ ਅਮਰੁਅਜੋਨੀਜਾਤਿਨਜਾਲਾ॥ਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰੁਰੂਪੁਨਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
> ...


Because Gurbani doesn't say the nirguna doesn't come into bodies, that's just your interpretation because you can't accept that nirguna means formless, and sarguna means form, and both are aspects of the One Ajooni.  Gurbani says repeatedly in many places the nirguna _pervades_ within His creation, _is_ His creation and _incarnates_ as His creation.  And that ultimately, everything, including the creation, is only Him, the Unborn, Undying Timeless Lord.


ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ 
*niragun saragun* har har maeraa koee hai jeeo aan milaavai jeeo ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 98​


ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ 
guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar ||
The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ 
ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4|| 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥ 
guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas ||
Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ 
sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||
They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.
~SGGS Ji p. 20​


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## pk70 (Aug 3, 2008)

Ek Om Kar. One Trimurthi Creator. The One All-pervading nirguna creates the sarguna, Trimurthi (Three gods Vishnu, Brahma, Mahesh), which includes the nasal bindu expressing this was out of the unstruck sound current of the Nada, and out of the three gunas of the Trimurthi, created the whole of sansaara. The Vedic definitions of Ekakshara or Omkara include that the All-pervading Primary One Parabrahm subsumes the Trimurthi and all creation within His body. So I fail to grasp what is overlooked in the Vedic definition. It is after all, a definition of the totality of the One (Eko Brahman) All-Pervading
*That is not found in Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is being forced on Sikhs by saying it Ek omkar, why I am saying? Answer is found in SGGS as it was pronounced by Guru himself*
ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ 
*Ekm ekankaar not Ek Om Kar,  but Guru ji is clear on this. Dr Sahib Singh ji goes in detail to define it and it doesn’t say what you say by calling it OM Kaar and Tri Murti Creator*
*Its pronunciation is Ikk oankaar, not om kaar*
*It has three parts, 1= one, oan and Kaar*
*It is a word of Sanskrit, in amar kosh it has three meanings*
*1. In Ved  or other religious books it was written as pious gesture*
*2. To answer an Order or question in YES but with respect*
*3 Braham*
*What meaning is suitable here when ONE is suffixed with it? Answer is number 3= Braham( not Brahama conceptual entity but The Lord, Creator of Universe). The next one is Kaar, when it comes as suffix; its meaning becomes “continuous which cannot be changed”. So when it comes with Braham, it means that Braham who is self existent without any change. Guru ji uses prefix a number with letter, where is this number in any other place? This number stands for counting. Ek can be used in different way, like, Ram and krishan were Ek, but you cannot use as “ Ram and Krishan 1, to convey that meaning, if Eka is used in Gurbani, it is defined again. So use of one number with Braham, Guru ji is not talking about Timurti  Creator as you have said above. In Mool Mantra there is no mention of that Trimurthi concept of of Sanatna or Vashnava It shows that all Guru ji wrote is being dragged back to either Sanatanism or Vashinavism.  Every Hindu name is used in Gurbani  is  dragged back to Hinduism without understanding dominating ideas promoted through out SGGS. After all Gurus were in Hindu society, language and culture was same, how it was possible to say any thing without usage of words of that society. It is laughable when Bhain ji you say Sikhs are bent upon supporting Sikhism as * *separate from Hinduism, when you yourself totally bent upon converting Sikhism into Vashnava or Sanatan dharm **just on the bais of some few similarities. I just don’t get why it is so.. Bhai Gurdas openly says that Guru Nanak converted four castes into one, do you believe him, no? When you want to convey your views through him, you quote him as an authentic and respectful.   Why this double standard Bhain ji?  No wonder some one on this post call it a nonsense debate, obviously it has become when facts are openly ignored I know we have disagreements on these issues but where ever I see a positive point, I support you. So I am not here just appose you but I wonder how main facts you ignore?*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 3, 2008)

> Who assumed the form of Krishna? According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant.
> Bhain ji if you see here only Krishna in above Guru Vaak but not Him as a whole sargun form, read the following, Guru ji says, *He is fish, fisherman, net and bait. *Should we consider *by the same token fish also a guiding light because Guru said He is in her too.* Tragedy is this, Gurbani is not understood in totality.


Errr, tragedy is the fish referred to as Das Avtaara is sarguna.  The fish, fisherman, net and bait in general, would relate to Advaitist teaching of the One All-pervading hidden in all forms.  But the fish described in Das Avtaara is very specific, and not just any fish.  

_Om Sri *Matsya *Avataraya Namaha ~ Divine Fish Avatar_



> THE FIRST SIX INCARNATIONS OF VISHNU/ DARWIN'S THEORY OF EVOLUTION
> Matsya (Fish)   Life starts in water (600 million-400 million years ago)
> Kurma (Turtle)	The first amphibians emerge (100 million years ago)
> Varaha (Boar) The first mammals evolve (60 million years ago)
> ...





> The Story of MATSYA Avatar
> 
> In MATSYA Avatar, Lord Vishnu incarnates himself as a fish in this world. In the earliest yuga (era) of Sata-yuga, a king named Manu was performing severe penance for thousands of years. One day as he was performing ablutions with river water, a small fish came into his hands and just as he was about to throw the fish back into the river, the fish requested the king to save its life. Heeding its request, the king put the fish into a jar of water but the fish started growing and the jar was not big enough for it. Then the king threw it into the river, but it soon it outgrew the river and the king then threw it into Ganges and then into the ocean.
> 
> The king realized that it was Lord Vishnu himself and then the lord made an appearance and made a special request to the king. It predicted that the world would come to an end by a huge flood in seven days and requested the king to build a huge boat and take the seven sages(hermits), seeds of all plants, one animal of each type and told him that he would appear as a fish to propel the boat to Mt Himavan for surviving the flood to the next yuga(eon). True to his word, after seven days the Lord appeared and the king tied the boat to the fish by using the royal serpent Vasuki and the fish took all of them to Mt Himavan and kept them there till the flood was over and in the new era, the king started procreation for the new era.  Children's Corner - Stories - Ten Avatars of Vishnu - Dashaavatara


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## pk70 (Aug 3, 2008)

*Hukam is a Punjabi word derived from the Arabic hukm, meaning "command" or "order."

*Naturally, the exact word will not appear in Sanskrit or Hindi, but this doesn't mean there is no equivalent concept in translation for "order/command of God for the disciple." Both Sikhism and Vaishnavism were military orders veer ji.
*Well Bhain ji this the proof of your views, does it make any sense*
* Bhain ji, why they lack such dominating idea which is expressed and stressed through out Guru Granth Sahib? It doesn’t matter if its originated from Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic. Point is this, you follow Guru, right from the beginning, His Hukam is explained, if it is so Vital, why it has become hard for Vashnavas to come up with it?  I am not looking for a word, but concept of Hukam.They don’t  have because  pro Vashnavas forget that eminent scholars who are biased towards Sikhism accept originality of Guru Nanak, only it is you, a follower of Guru Nanak trying to convert him into Vashnvas. Why Guru Nanak used this word as vital factor? While talking about the Formless, if a few similarities (may be 75%), are there, why hundred percent of Vasshnva is seen in Sikhism by you?  You boastingly ask” What is new?” I answer is concept of Hukam as dominating idea is new. Talking about hurtful feelings, comparing similarities is other thing but converting a founder of a faith into old sect is very hurtful for those who adore Guru Nanak for liberating from storms of trading in religion. Whatever Vashnava did at their own, they are still known as Hindus because they failed to walk up to Shri Lanka, Macca Madina.  Guru Nanak did
The last quote you gave what is this?* *What it has to do with my questions and post. What validity it has? How content of this proves any thing, to me, it is another mythical story to impress people nothing more than.  May be very useful for you but not for me if you are posting for others, that is fine, I shall rather read H.G Wells.*


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

This doesn't even make sense, "giving credit to _them_." It's not like the nirguna is "True" God, and the sarguna is something else. The sarguna is _"created saroop"_ since nirguna has no saroop, but is still Jyot of the One nirguna. Even the Vaishnavs worship Krishna and Raam BECAUSE they are the nirguna manifestated in sansaara. Or how else would the Naam of the avataaras have any potency to be _shabad Naam of the Naad_, nirguna? Veer ji, when you are japping the Naams of the sargun manifestation as a boat of mukti, this says something about the _intricate relationship between sarguna and nirguna of the All-pervading Unborn One._ They are the same One being, one in form and one without which subsumes within itself the sarguna. The fact that Sikhs are enjoined to jap the Naams of sargun manifestations, which Gurbani calls _incarnations of the nirgun God_, with devotion, bhakti is really no difference. Both schools of philosophy acknowledge the sarguna is transient and the nirguna is permanent. Both schools acknowledge the nirguna is the One All-pervaiding Unborn Supreme. 
*Sikhs are no where taught by Guru ji to worship Rama or **Krishna** because they were part of Sarguna. Why it is so. Attributes of God are being turned by you as real worth worshiping when those are questioned in Gurbani  and proven inflicted with Maya. BHain ji, that was the mist Guru ji cleared for us, that was the chain Guru ji cut for us.
*
It is a hallmark of Vaishnavism to have belief in the avataars of the nirguna. It is hallmark of Vaishnavism to jap the sargun Naams of God with bhakti to obtain moksha. Please explain where Sikhism_ is so radically distinct_ in this regard as to realistically qualify itself as a new religion. I've been waiting to hear the radically new spiritual teachings within Gurbani, and not over-generalizing social differences such as idols, caste and corruption, which equally, to a degree can be seen within Sikhism today. All sects have their differences, while remaining true to the general outline of original source scriptures. The source of the teachings of _sargun avataars of One All-pervading nirguna_, and _Naam jap bhakti_ and _sankirtana_, are the Vaishnava Upanishads. To me, it is hair-splitting to judge whether Vaishnavs are _"worshipping sarguna"_ and "Sikhs are _worshipping nirguna_" despite the fact that both are devotionally japping the same Naams of sarguna, because it implies Sikhs are "spiritual" and Vaishnavs are "corrupted." I feel that is an inaccurate and artificial imposition based on ethnocentric prejudice of preferring Sikhism to Vaishnavism. I really don't believe we can judge people's individual intentions this way. Vaishnavas are "monotheistic" and "Dvaitic," because they worship the nirguna and not the demi-gods. They are "pantheistic" and "Advaitic" because they believe that One is pervading all creation, including the demi-gods and avataaras, and everything is actually only He.
*When I see Rama beheading poor low class, when I see **Krishna** acting deceptive way, I do not think that Sargun srop of Rama and **Krishna** and Rawana of Shri Lanka are any different in context of humanity. Vashnva worship them, we don’t, that is another basic different as Gurbani doesn’t guide us to do that” kishan bishan kabhi n dhiaaon”*


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

Again, as you acknowledge you don't have knowledge of actual Vaishnav teaching, yet persist in trying to correct it's deficiencies or compare it with Sikhism, I must bring to your attention that Shiva is not an avataara, but a demi-god, and Vaishnava sampradhya
  isapproves of his worship as nirgun Narayana. So this is another example of where you make careless mistakes in defining what Vaishnavism is. Vaishnavism is NOT about worship of the demi-gods, but worship of the One Unborn who incarnates in His avataaras. It is not the sargun physicality of the avataaras which is worshipped, but the All-pervading One Jyot which is manifesting through them. Please stop distorting what Vaishnavism actually teaches in some pretense of differences between Vaishnav 
  philosophy and Sikhism.
*Let me tell you bhain ji, I do not care if there were gods, demi gods avtara whatever. I am  not interested in those guys. Talking of distortion, you have been doing it for while now you  are telling me that I am distorting their views. So you felt the pain, I felt it more than you do. Numerous times I told you that without any full study of Guru Granth Sahib ji, no one has the right to call Guru Nanak Vashnava, but you did. Thread was closed, not because of discussion but because you showed no respect towards Sikhism’s originality save for smelling either Hinduism or Vashnava. All the Gurbani quote doesn’t support your views. I can bet on that. Look at how you understand it*
*Look at your comments*
  Errr, tragedy is the fish referred to as Das Avtaara is sarguna. The fish, fisherman, net and bait in general, would relate to Advaitist teaching of the One All-pervading hidden in all forms. But the fish described in Das Avtaara is very specific, and not just any fish. 
*In that Guru Shabad Bhain jio, there is not only fish which is called Sargun Waheguru but THE NET.THE BAIT. IT is funny how you drag every thing to those guys*.


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.
~SGGS Ji p. 470
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ 
rovai raam nikaalaa bhaeiaa ||
Rama wept when he was sent into exile,
~SGGS Ji p. 953

Does Gurbani say that Raam and Krishna are any less the Supreme Lord God because of these descriptions? No!
*Oh YES Bhain Ji, what you expect more than that where ever it says the guy was deceptive. Once so called God does deceptive action, what is the difference between him and others who do same actions under Maya Influence? Why Guru ji would write a decree on them? Hint is given,  it is enough for a wise person.*
        So why are we making artificial distinctions between the sargun saroop and the nirguna which Gurbani doesn't even make?
*It  is you Bhain ji because you see His sargun Sroop only in Rama and Krishna, Vishnu, poor intoxicated Shiva and all those hard to remember because there are loads of them. In fact His Sargun Sroop is every thing we see” eh Wis sansaar jo tum dekhte eh Harr ka roop  hai( All the world you see, it is His form M-3) So He is grass in Sun in trees, He is in whatever you see. His Sargun is not limited to Rama and **Krishna**. Those guys have not that spiritual highness; to me Lord Christ is way higher than them. People look at actions  of others to respect;  obviously their actions are not of high spiritual beings,*
  ecause Gurbani doesn't say the nirguna doesn't come into bodies, that's just your interpretation because you can't accept that nirguna means formless, and sarguna means form, and both are aspects of the One Ajooni. Gurbani says repeatedly in many places the nirguna _pervades_ within His creation, _is_ His creation and _incarnates_ as His creation. And that ultimately, everything, including the creation, is only Him, the Unborn, Undying Timeless Lord.
*When Guru ji calls HIM Ajooni in all over Guru Granth Sahib Ji, why any person would agree with this wrong notion" HE incarnates" His presence with in is not incarnation, like I said before.*

ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ 
*niragun saragun* har har maeraa koee hai jeeo aan milaavai jeeo ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 98
*His Sargun srop are also flowers, those killers, those Hindus and Muslims who tried to make hell for Guru ji because revolution was too hard  for them to swallow. Why His Sargun srop ends at Rama and **Krishna** in your views Bhain ji? *


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> _Ek Om Kar. One Trimurthi Creator. The One All-pervading nirguna creates the sarguna, Trimurthi (Three gods Vishnu, Brahma, Mahesh), which includes the nasal bindu expressing this was out of the unstruck sound current of the Nada, and out of the three gunas of the Trimurthi, created the whole of sansaara. The Vedic definitions of Ekakshara or Omkara include that the All-pervading Primary One Parabrahm subsumes the Trimurthi and all creation within His body. So I fail to grasp what is overlooked in the Vedic definition. It is after all, a definition of the totality of the One (Eko Brahman) All-Pervading
> That is not found in Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is being forced on Sikhs by saying it Ek omkar, why I am saying? Answer is found in SGGS as it was pronounced by Guru himself
> ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ
> Ekm ekankaar not Ek Om Kar, but Guru ji is clear on this. Dr Sahib Singh ji goes in detail to define it and it doesn’t say what you say by calling it OM Kaar and Tri Murti Creator_



_"He is the one, the one alone, in Him.  All deities become One alone." ~Artharva Veda_

_"Having evolved himself from the soul of the world, once separated from the first cause, he evaporates with, and emanates all nature out of himself. He does not stand above it, but is mixed up with it; Brahma and the universe form one Being, each particle of which is in its essence Brahma himself, who proceeded out of himself." ~Vishnu Purana_

No one is forcing anything on Sikhs.  Admittedly it is a point of dispute per Singh Sabhist reformers who attempted to remove all Hindu references from Gurbani.  Ongkar is merely pronunciation difference from Omkar.  The proof is in descriptions of Trimurthi and three gunas in relationship to the Parabrahm and creation of the world describing the Puranic definition of Omkar found in Gurbani itself.

_"Sarvam Omkara eva: Everything is Om, indeed. This is how the Upanishad begins." _

If the Ong refers to what you say:

_1. In Ved or other religious books it was written as pious gesture
2. To answer an Order or question in YES but with respect
3 Braham _

Then it means: *One Brahm-God Creator*.  However, Omkara, as well as Ongkara also means Parabrahman.


> This is written as ‘Om (ॐ)’ and is considered as the sacred vowel. Not only is Omkar a mahamantra with a single letter but is also labelled as the monosyllabic Brahman in the Shrimadbhagvadgita. The sage of this mantra is Parabrahman, the deity Parmatma and the rhythm (chanda) Gayatri. The mahamantras from the Vedas, Upanishads, etc. and also the efficacious (siddha) mantras and Names denoting The Lord are the varied forms of this Omkar. When chanting every mantra it is essential to start it with Omkar.
> 
> ‘The scriptures describe the pranav, that is, Om as the “monarch of mantras”. It is considered as the symbol or representation of the individual soul. Omkar is the main Name of The Supreme Brahman (Parabrahman). Since acquisition of knowledge about it means realisation of Parabrahman, worshipping it is the same as worshipping The Supreme God. The famous quote from the Upanishads ‘अयमात्*मा ब्रह्म’ means ‘This soul is Brahman’. Once one realises through meditation that the entire universe is composed of Omkar and develops conviction that every object in the universe and every individual soul itself is Brahman, the realisation of Brahman as the soul, is achieved and finally one attains Self-realisation of the unmanifest (nirgun) Brahman in the form of “I am Brahman (अहं ब्रह्मास्*मि)”.  Why is Omkar called as pranav mantra? | Namsankirtanyoga




And if it means: *One Trimurthi Creator*, then the Gurbani makes perfect sense which in numerous places equates first the Primal void, then the Trimurthi, then the world of the three gunas.  Surely if it meant, One Brahma God Creator, Vishnu wouldn't be primary over Brahma, and the Trimurthi wouldn't be constantly appearing in Gurbani in context of the created sansaara.  So it is evident that the doctrine of One Brahm-God Creator is imposed politically to deny the Primacy of the Trimurthi, despite so much evidence in the Gurbani which teaches Ek Omkara, One Primal, Trimurthi-world of three gunas-Creator.  Along with that all important nasal bindu on the Vedic Om/Oang which is necessary to explain what the Nada is in relationship to creation. Without the sound current of the Naad emanating from the unstruck Om, where would Naad come from as a concept in Gurbani?



> Every kind of trinity is represented by OM such as Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, Saraswati-Lakshmi-Durga, Past-Present-Future, Birth-Life-Death, Creation-Preservation-Destruction, Waking-Dreaming-Deep Sleep, Rajas-Satva-Tamas, Body-Mind-Soul. http://www.vydic.org/pages/om.htm




ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​


ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ 
sunnahu brehamaa bisan mehaes oupaaeae ||
From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.
~SGGS Ji p. 1037​


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun bisathhaariaa ||
You created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and the expanse of the three qualities.

ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਸਾਜਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
nav khandd prithhamee saaj har rang savaariaa ||
Creating the world of the nine regions, O Lord, You have embellished it with beauty.
~SGGS Ji p. 1094​


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਆ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
thrai gun keeaa pasaaraa ||
He formed the expanse of the entire universe from the three gunas, the three qualities.
~SGGS Ji p. 1003​



> The first chapter of Mandukya Upanishad discusses Turiya by means of the Vedic symbol AUM. The restless mind cannot think of the transcendental Reality without the help of a concrete symbol. Thinking is possible only through symbols. The student is asked to imagine four parts in Brahman, or Cosmic Reality. They are called four quarters. The first three- gross, subtle and causal- constitute the phenomenal world. The fourth, so called only in relation to the three just mentioned, is transcendental, being beyond time, space and causality. It is Turiya, or the unconditioned Brahman.  Mandukya Upanishad


The three gunas of the created sansaara relate to the Trimurthi which is caught in duality and Maya.  By transcending above the world of three gunas to the fourth state of consciousness, representing the nirgun Parabrahm, the jiv is liberated.

Hence by every doctrinal teaching within Gurbani, Ongkara means exactly the same as Omkara. 


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.
~SGGS Ji p.30​

_"He is the Lord of all. He is the knower of all. He is the inner controller. He is the source of all; for from Him all beings originate and in Him they finally disappear." ~Mandukya Upanishad_



> The traditional Hindu explanation of the name Vishnu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". For example Adi Sankara, in Swami Tapasyananda's translation of his commentary on Vishnu Sahasranama (Ramakrishna Math publications) states derivation from this root, with a meaning "presence everywhere" ("As He pervades everything, vevesti, He is called Visnu"). Adi Sankara states (regarding Vishnu Purana, 3.1.45): "The Power of the Supreme Being has entered within the universe. The root Viś means 'enter into...'"
> 
> Vishnu takes form as an all-inclusive deity, known as Purusha or Mahāpurusha, Paramātma [Supreme Soul], Antaryāmi [In-dweller], and He is the Sheshin [Totality] in whom all souls are contained. He is Bhagavat or Bhagavan, which in Sanskrit means "possessing bhāga (Divine Glory)".  Vishnu


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> _Bhai Gurdas openly says that Guru Nanak converted four castes into one, do you believe him, no? When you want to convey your views through him, you quote him as an authentic and respectful. Why this double standard Bhain ji? No wonder some one on this post call it a nonsense debate, obviously it has become when facts are openly ignored I know we have disagreements on these issues but where ever I see a positive point, I support you. So I am not here just appose you but I wonder how main facts you ignore?_



ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ । 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu kalijugi andari iku dikhaaiaa|
He preached in this darkage (kaliyug) that, saragun (Brahm) and nirgun (Parbrahm) are the same and identical.

ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ । 
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).
~Vaar 1 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥ 
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥ 
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥ 
naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
beej manthra sarab ko giaan ||
The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ 
chahu varanaa mehi japai kooo naam ||
Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 274​


ਸੋ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਨਵੰਤੁ ॥ 
so surathaa so baisano so giaanee dhhanavanth ||
They are intuitively wise, and they are Vaishnaavs, worshippers of Vishnu; they are spiritually wise, wealthy and prosperous.

ਸੋ ਸੂਰਾ ਕੁਲਵੰਤੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਭਜਿਆ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥ 
so sooraa kulavanth soe jin bhajiaa bhagavanth ||
They are spiritual heros, of noble birth, who vibrate upon the Lord God. 

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਸੂਦੁ ਬੈਸੁ ਉਧਰੈ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥ 
khathree braahaman soodh bais oudhharai simar chanddaal ||
The Kh'shatriyas, the Brahmins, the low-caste Soodras, the Vaisha workers and the outcast pariahs are all saved,

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਨਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਰਵਾਲ ॥੧੭॥ 
jin jaaniou prabh aapanaa naanak thisehi ravaal ||17||
meditating on the Lord. Nanak is the dust of the feet of those who know his God. ||17||
~SGGS Ji p. 300​


ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ 
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~SGGS Ji p. 747​

Nothing in Gurbani says Caste do not exist.  Everything says that through authentic spirituality and Naam jap, the caste distinctions do not discriminate.  Otherwise Gurbani would not be repeatedly referring to Caste.  Also, as was the original point, it is historical fact that Hindu sect of Vaishnavism also broke down this caste barrier as far as spiritual equality was concerned.  How am I hurting anyone's sentiments to state what is the truth?



> _Who did reject caste system first time in Indian History in so massive way? Sanatani or Vashnava? NO, only Sikh Gurus did, they deserve that credit, please._


That is not in accord with the facts veer ji.
"Ramanuja was born circa 1017, in Sriperumbudur, India."​"Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born 1469 in the Western Punjab village of Talwandi."​


> The great Raamanuja specifically included among his followers sc's, tribals, immigrant foreign soldiers, arabs and turks, destitutes women, jains, etc. Raamanuja's efforts are glossed over by modern  pseudo-secular writers. Ramanuja and his later disciples running the movement, certainly saw to it that there was no more exclusivism of caste groups inside the community. All the same it appears they made sure that the brightest were selected as iyengars, evangelizers of vaishnavism, without any regard to their former caste or other origins. It is however true, after some centuries this reformist movement became just another caste, not quite sure about its place in the hierarchy.
> 
> The immense and lasting influence of Raamanuja is probably not realised by many Indians. Here are some direct and indirect descendants of his thought: ---the entire actual live vaishnava tradition of today, and including offshoots and modifications and the movements heavily influenced like those of Raamananda Kabir Ravidas Nanak Tulsidas Vallabhacharya Nimbaarka Madhvacharya Raghavendra Chaitanya Ramdas. ...even recent reformers like Phule and isckon and others.  One characteristic method used by the gurus was community dinners, where everybody sat together without distinction. This went a long way towards reduction of old discriminations. http://www.vepachedu.org/manasanskriti/Brahmins.html


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> _It is you Bhain ji because you see His sargun Sroop only in Rama and Krishna, Vishnu, poor intoxicated Shiva and all those hard to remember because there are loads of them. In fact His Sargun Sroop is every thing we see” eh Wis sansaar jo tum dekhte eh Harr ka roop hai( All the world you see, it is His form M-3) So He is grass in Sun in trees, He is in whatever you see. His Sargun is not limited to Rama and Krishna. Those guys have not that spiritual highness; to me Lord Christ is way higher than them. People look at actions of others to respect; obviously their actions are not of high spiritual beings,_


You are misunderstanding the nature of an avataar.  Everything is _ultimately_ Him.  But in manifestation, we are individual jivs.  Avataaras are sargun saroop of the nirguna.  Not all avataaras are complete and shine the same degree of Jyot.  But all avataaras are incarnations of the One Uncreated.  While we may say  every being is the One Divine Beloved, this is correct in a certain sense.  But also, a chela is not equal to his Guru, until he becomes enlightened.  The sargun saroop are enlightened Guru's who guide the world of darkness back to light.



> *DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE SUPREME PERSON*
> An ancient prayer in Brahma Samhita says, "I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose non-dual, perfect and eternal forms are unlimited, who is the original ancient person, yet in his blossoming youth, and who is beyond access for the Vedas, but very near to those with a pure, devoted heart."
> 
> The original Supreme Person, Krishna, expands into various forms to fulfill various purposes within His creation. He is known as Svayam Bhagavan (the Supreme Person Himself) and Lila Purusottama (the Supreme Enjoyer of Pastimes). To taste the full variety of loving exchanges with His devotees, He manifests various forms in both the material and the spiritual worlds.
> ...





> _When Guru ji calls HIM Ajooni in all over Guru Granth Sahib Ji, why any person would agree with this wrong notion" HE incarnates" His presence with in is not incarnation, like I said before._


Because Gurbani says that He incarnates.  Why is Gurbani using this term,* ਅਵਤਾਰੁ *?

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥ 
naanak saevaa karahu har gur safal dharasan kee fir laekhaa mangai n koee ||2||
O Nanak, serve the Guru, the Lord Incarnate; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is profitable, and in the end, you shall not be called to account. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 306​
ਨਾਥ ਨਰਹਰ ਦੀਨ ਬੰਧਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਦੇਵ ॥ 
naathh narehar dheen bandhhav pathith paavan dhaev ||
O Lord, Man-lion Incarnate, Companion to the poor, Divine Purifier of sinners;

ਭੈ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਨਾਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਧਿ ਸਫਲ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥ 
bhai thraas naas kirapaal gun nidhh safal suaamee saev ||1||
O Destroyer of fear and dread, Merciful Lord Master, Treasure of Excellence, fruitful is Your service. ||1|| 

ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥ 
har gopaal gur gobindh ||
O Lord, Cherisher of the World, Guru-Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 508​
ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥ 
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai avathaar oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​
ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥ 
eih padhhath thae math chookehi rae man bhaedh bibhaedh n jaan beeao ||
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥ 
parathashh ridhai gur arajun kai har pooran breham nivaas leeao ||5||
The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||

ਜਬ ਲਉ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਗ ਲਿਲਾਰ ਉਦੈ ਤਬ ਲਉ ਭ੍ਰਮਤੇ ਫਿਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਯਉ ॥ 
jab lo nehee bhaag lilaar oudhai thab lo bhramathae firathae bahu dhhaayo ||
As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.  

ਕਲਿ ਘੋਰ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਬੂਡਤ ਥੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਮਿਟਿ ਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਯਉ ॥ 
kal ghor samudhr mai booddath thhae kabehoo mitt hai nehee rae pashhuthaayo ||
I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.

ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ ॥ 
thath bichaar yehai mathhuraa jag thaaran ko avathaar banaayo ||
O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​


> _His Sargun srop are also flowers, those killers, those Hindus and Muslims who tried to make hell for Guru ji because revolution was too hard for them to swallow. Why His Sargun srop ends at Rama and Krishna in your views Bhain ji?_


Because you are misunderstanding the nature of the created sansaara.  In the world of three gunas and Maya and duality, we are separated from God.  It requires a Guru, who is the sargun saroop of the nirgun Jyot to lead us to mukti, so we can experience merging into the One All-pervading.  He is right here with us.  Our true nature is That.  But we can't perceive it.  That's why we need a Guru.  Otherwise, to recklessly misapply the Advaitist teaching of the All-pervading is to assume we have no need for a Guru.


ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥ 
japyo jinh arajun dhaev guroo fir sankatt jon garabh n aayo ||6||
Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ ॥ 
kal samudhr bheae roop pragatt har naam oudhhaaran ||
In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​
Gurbani clearly states we need a Guru.  That is why we have an avataar.


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

_He is the one, the one alone, in Him. All deities become One alone." ~Artharva Veda_
*Guru Nanak doesn’t talk about deities, the purpose is quite different*
_"Having evolved himself from the soul of the world, once separated from the first cause, he evaporates with, and emanates all nature out of himself. He does not stand above it, but is mixed up with it; Brahma and the universe form one Being, each particle of which is in its essence Brahma himself, who proceeded out of himself." ~Vishnu Purana_
*That is not exactly what mool mantra says, Sikhs are believer of Ajooni, Self Existent, that is why Mool Mantra is repeated numerous time to stress about being Ajooni , add to it, you quoted **OM** KAAR as tri murthy Guru ji doesn’t even talk about it. Regardless what they are doing in desperation, uniqueness stands alone, look at First page on Guru Granth Sahib Ik OANKAR, KARTHA PURAKH NIRBAO NIRVAIR AKAAL MURATH, AJOONI SWAMBH.*
*Don’t compare thse are not even of that quality
*No one is forcing anything on Sikhs. Admittedly it is a point of dispute per Singh Sabhist reformers who attempted to remove all Hindu references from Gurbani. Ongkar is merely pronunciation difference from Omkar. The proof is in descriptions of Trimurthi and three gunas in relationship to the Parabrahm and creation of the world describing the Puranic definition of Omkar found in Gurbani itself.
*Un true, no trimurthi is defined as they do save for references to guide followers, never felt it, understood it that way after studying so many times. It is desperate attempt to call a SUN a moon*.

_"Sarvam Omkara eva: Everything is Om, indeed. This is how the Upanishad begins." _
*I already wrote that as per amarkosh, it is used in prefix item, its not new, the idea  Dr Sahib singh ji gives is used with a line from Upnishda. He doesn’t take that meaning because for him being a Sanskrit scholar, it is a way of showing respect not exactly ParBraham.  He picks the third meaning which is actually “ BrahaM’ but not Trimurthy.*
* As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, see how they tell disgusting tales
Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist?  Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with contaminated one.*


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

You are misunderstanding the nature of an avataar.  Everything is _ultimately_ Him. But in manifestation, we are individual jivs. Avataaras are sargun saroop of the nirguna. Not all avataaras are complete and shine the same degree of Jyot. But all avataaras are incarnations of the One Uncreated. While we may say every being is the One Divine Beloved, this is correct in a certain sense. But also, a chela is not equal to his Guru, until he becomes enlightened. The sargun saroop are enlightened Guru's who guide the world of darkness back to light.

*NO Bhain ji, no avtar is His incarnation because HE is Ajooni, so much stress is given on this factor, who says so, Guru ji says" burn that mouth" Period. Then who are avtaras, or enlightened persons? Those who realized Him, who got His Grace as per His Hukam, period. Sikhism got over avtarvaad, the words used here and there cannot go against the basic principle of Sikhism, obviously who says He incarnates has more Hindu influence than of gurmat. If He is Ajooni, He is. His Sargun Srop is His manifestation, His presence. That is what is sought by those spirituals, they dont get stuck in MAYA. He never limits himself to one body period.*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
> eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
> The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.
> 
> _Here the translator uses” Lord” with Krishna, you think it is all about Krishna( may be he also thinks that way) but it is not, lets see why, see the next blow Vaak, *Vasudeva is not krishan, Krishna himself says in Bhagvat Geeta that” I am son of Vasudeva”,* _


Veer ji, these scholars who keep trying to distort what Hinduism actually teaches, in an effort to distance Sikh spiritual teachings from Hindu spiritual teachings are either being deceptive or not even bothering to research, despite their credentials claiming them to be Sikh _scholars_.  This is shameless.  This is embarassing for the Sikh community.  There is no scholarly integrity in these kind of erroneous distortions.



> Vasudeva (Devanagari वसुदेव, IAST Vasudeva) is the father of Krishna, the son of Śũrasena, of the Yadava dynasty. His sister Kunti was married to Pandu. The patronymic Vāsudeva (with long ā) is a popular name of Krishna.
> 
> Related to this name is an early religion, sometimes called Bhagavatism[1] that was largely formed by the 4th century BC where Vāsudeva was worshiped as the supreme Deity in a strongly monotheistic format, where the supreme Being was perfect, eternal and full of grace.[1]
> 
> ...





> The name Vasudeva referring to Lord Krishna is revealed in Srimad Bhagavad-Gita in four different chapters. Lord Krishna uses the name Vasudeva twice to describe Himself in chapters 7 and 10 and then He is described twice more as Vasudeva in chapters 11 and 18 by Vedavyasa.
> 
> The first example of Vasudeva is in Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 7, verse 19 below:
> bahunam janmanam ante jnanavam mam prapadyate
> ...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> NO Bhain ji, no avtar is His incarnation because HE is Ajooni,


I can't force you to agree.  But you are simply ignoring the Gurbani which describes in detail the sarguna of avataaras and calls them the Lord God.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> Now lets look at your quote below
> ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
> saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
> He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| NOTE word is* “ banave” *means create not assume No wonder misunderstanding continues



(ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ), Banave is a Hindi word which literal translation means "replica."  .. english to hindi dictionary ..

Assumed, created, replica, in conjunction with prior definitions of avataar, the meaning is not altered.  Krishna remains a form of the formless Lord per these translations.  You have to ask yourself logically, who is the "He" which took on this form?  And the answer per other vaaks in Gurbani, the formless Lord Himself.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ ।
> nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa|
> The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms.
> Bhain ji, poor translator translates” banaeea= to make” in to “assume”, that can give you wrong signal, do not depend on him Here Formless Lords’ blessings are expressed, He created Nanak


Veerji please, (ਬਣਾਇਆ), Banaia, from bana.  Means same thing as roop or form.  The vaak says the formless Lord took form as Guru Nanak.  Why the hair-splitting?  For the awkward grammatical construction of English language, translators used the word "assume"  meaning ("to take on") form.  It does not alter the meaning of the Guru vaak.  The formless has still become the form of Guru Nanak per Gurbani.




> ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ ।
> guru angadu guru ang tay *gangahu* jaanu tarang utdaaiaa|
> In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges.
> again, Ganges hasn’t created any thing, translator is just struggling but failed to convey message, in simple words Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad as of his own part, means worthy of that jyot Formless put in Guru Nanak by the Lord


I believe the English construction of the sentence is saying, as the Ganges creates waves, waves being fundamentally a part of the Ganges river, in like manner did Guru create Guru Angad from his limbs, or His fundamental Self.  The meaning is not struggling at all. 

ਗੰਗ ਗੁਸਾਇਨਿ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰ ॥ 
Gang gusāin gahir gambẖīr. 
The mother Ganges is deep and profound.
~SGGS Ji p. 1162​


ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗੁ ਜਿਉ ਜਲਹਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
jal tharang jio jalehi samaaeiaa ||
As the waves of water merge again with the water, 

ਤਿਉ ਜੋਤੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥ 
thio jothee sang joth milaaeiaa ||
so does my light merge again into the Light.
~SGGS Ji p. 102​



> ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥
> aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
> The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.
> Bhain ji, "oudavio" means to come in to light but it doesn’t mean taking birth
> It should be” Self existent Creator shown up light in this world, or came into light, incarnation is not discussed here.( He has mediums why would He take birth?)



(ਉਦਵਿਅਉ), from Sanskrit word Udvana, meaning "ud-vāna n. the going out."  or "appearance." Sir Monier-Williams-A Sanskrit-English Dictionary

  Again, I acknowledge the translation is not exact, it is still saying the formless Unborn Lord (who is without form) _has gone out_ (into the world, taken form "appearance.")  It does not fundamentally alter the meaning of the Guru vaak.  It is still talking about the nirguna which has become manifest in the sargun saroop of Guru Angad Ji.  And if you want to split hairs, the proof of this is in Gurbani which expressly says (ਅਵਤਾਰ), so that there is no doubt as to the meaning.

ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥ 
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai *avathaar* oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

So your allegation of "avataarvaad" being derived only from mistranslations and not being a part of Sikh teaching per Gurbani is false.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> _I already wrote that as per amarkosh, it is used in prefix item, its not new, the idea Dr Sahib singh ji gives is used with a line from Upnishda. He doesn’t take that meaning because for him being a Sanskrit scholar, it is a way of showing respect not exactly ParBraham. He picks the third meaning which is actually “ BrahaM’ but not Trimurthy._


Yes, in the Vedas Om is defined as Parabrahm.  In the Vaishnava Puranas it is defined as Trimurthi, as was explained in previous post.




> _As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, *see how they tell disgusting tales*
> Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? *Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories* in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with *contaminated one.*_


Why do the forum moderators conceive "disrespect for Sikhism" by deviating from the Singh Sabha reform interpretation and debating a sanatan interpretation, which has historical documentation to substantiate, along with different Panths within the Sikh tradition, Udasis, Naamdharis, Nirmalas, and Nihangs, as well as Sant sampradhyas which also hold these interpretations?  In other words, it's not even a new concept, let alone a "disrespectful" opinion.  It only illustrates the profound intolerance of the mainstream Singh Sabha views to any other interpretive viewpoint.  Of course the fact that several arrests have been made in India recently which implicate Sikh militants as attempting to assassinate various dera heads who are influential in Punjab and hold sanatan views underscores Sikh fanaticism and intolerance.  It isn't disrespect of the Singh Sabha separatist views to argue for the sanatan opinion.  But as clearly seen on this post, it is intolerance, disrespect and distortion of sanatan views which needs to be protected.  I have had very thoughtful posts deleted and threads closed because they "offended the sentiments" of people who couldn't tolerate the sanatan view, couldn't tolerate that people might be persuaded there is validity to the sanatan view.  Yet, look how the sanatan view is abused right before your eyes, and moderators talk about "fairness."  

The assumption is that sanatan views are false without question, without deserving fair and impartial investigation, knee-jerk reactivity in imputing anti-Sikhism from the Sanatan interpretation.  And by such actions as public disclaimers, deletions without notice and imputation of "disrespect" for the presumed "authentic" Sikh interpretation, the moderators have already labeled the sanatan viewpoint false, and simpy by existing, "disrespectful" to the presumed "true Sikhism."  The stated assumption is that Sikh sangat and youth must be protected from exposure to sanatan interpretations and have "_sentiments of aggressively intolerant mainstream Sikhs_" defended.  But I will show you how the sanatan opinion, most notably from Nirmala Panth, which teaches from the Gurbani that study and knowledge of the Vedas, Smritis and Puranas are a part of the heritage of Gurmat Gursikhi.  Not only is there a historical heritage of it, but it comes direct from Gurbani.  So "_who_" is being disrespectful of Gurbani?  Ask yourselves the question.  "_Who_" is offending legitimate Sikh sentiments to contradict Guru's bani with so low a criticism of Vedas, Smritis and Puranas?  

What I have is "*Disgusting*."  "*Contaminated*."  You have the "*Gold*."  Amazing prejudice.  Amazing distortion of the truth.  And all in the name of a fair and respectful spiritual discussion.  FYI, it's not a "pick and choose" policy which takes one to Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas for clarity of definition.  But the fact that clarity of understanding is sought for the terms and concepts which are in Gurbani.  It is the study of Gurbani which leads to study of the other scriptures.  Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so! (Gurbani quotes will prove this.)


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
baedh puraan parrae ko eih gun simarae har ko naamaa ||1|| rehaao ||
This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 220​


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥ 
baedh puraan sinmrith sudhhaakhyar ||
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,  

ਕੀਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥ 
keenae raam naam eik aakhyar ||
were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.  

ਕਿਨਕਾ ਏਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੀਅ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
kinakaa eaek jis jeea basaavai ||
That one, in whose soul the One Lord dwells

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਗਨੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ 
thaa kee mehimaa ganee n aavai ||
the praises of his glory cannot be recounted.
~SGGS Ji p. 262​


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਜਾਸ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਤ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੀਐ ਮੋ ਧਰੁ ਰੇ ॥ 
baedh puraan jaas gun gaavath thaa ko naam heeai mo dhhar rae ||
The Vedas and the Puraanas sing His Praises; enshrine His Name within your heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 220​


ਘੋਖੇ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭ ਆਨ ਨ ਕਥਤਉ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
ghokhae saasathr baedh sabh aan n kathhatho koe ||
I have searched all the Shaastras and the Vedas, and they say nothing except this:

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਹੁਣਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ 
aadh jugaadhee hun hovath naanak eaekai soe ||1||
"In the beginning, throughout the ages, now and forevermore, O Nanak, the One Lord alone exists."||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 256​


ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥ 
akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||
In the Word, God established the three worlds. 

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ 
akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||
Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.

ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ 
akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||
From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas.

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥ 
akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||
From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations. 

ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥ 
akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||
From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt.  

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥ 
akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||
From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.
~SGGS Ji p. 261​


ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਲਗਿ ਬੇਦ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ 
har simaran lag baedh oupaaeae ||
Remembering the Lord, the Vedas were composed.
~SGGS Ji p. 263​


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees. 

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥ 
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥ 
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥ 
naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 274​


ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae khandd brehamandd ||
The Naam is the Support of the earth and solar systems.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae simrith baedh puraan ||
The Naam is the Support of the Simritees, the Vedas and the Puraanas. 

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸੁਨਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae sunan giaan dhhiaan ||
The Naam is the Support by which we hear of spiritual wisdom and meditation.
~SGGS Ji p. 284​


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਦੇਖੁ ॥ 
baedh puraan sinmrith mehi dhaekh ||
See Him in the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸਸੀਅਰ ਸੂਰ ਨਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ॥ 
saseear soor nakhyathr mehi eaek ||
In the moon, the sun and the stars, He is the One.

ਬਾਣੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ॥ 
baanee prabh kee sabh ko bolai ||
The Bani of God's Word is spoken by everyone.
~SGGS Ji p. 294​


ਤਾ ਕੀ ਆਸ ਕਲਿਆਣ ਸੁਖ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
thaa kee aas kaliaan sukh jaa thae sabh kashh hoe ||
Place your hopes in Him, for salvation and peace; all things come from Him. 

ਚਾਰਿ ਕੁੰਟ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿਓ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
chaar kuntt dheh dhis bhramiou this bin avar n koe ||
I wandered around the four corners of the world and in the ten directions, but I saw nothing except Him.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਉ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith sunae bahu bidhh karo beechaar ||
I listened to the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, and I pondered over them in so many ways.  

ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਭੈ ਹਰਨ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥ 
pathith oudhhaaran bhai haran sukh saagar nirankaar ||
The Saving Grace of sinners, the Destroyer of fear, the Ocean of peace, the Formless Lord.

ਦਾਤਾ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਦੇਨਹਾਰੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
dhaathaa bhugathaa dhaenehaar this bin avar n jaae ||
The Great Giver, the Enjoyer, the Bestower - there is no place at all without Him. 

ਜੋ ਚਾਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ॥੧॥ 
jo chaahehi soee milai naanak har gun gaae ||1||
You shall obtain all that you desire, O Nanak, singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 296​


ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਸਮੈ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਣਾ ॥ 
nindhak kee gath kathehoon naahee khasamai eaevai bhaanaa ||
The slanderer shall never attain emancipation; this is the Will of the Lord and Master.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦ ਕਰੇ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਤਿਉ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥੩॥ 
jo jo nindh karae santhan kee thio santhan sukh maanaa ||3||
The more the Saints are slandered, the more they dwell in peace. ||3||

ਸੰਤਾ ਟੇਕ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤੂੰ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸਹਾਈ ॥ 
santhaa ttaek thumaaree suaamee thoon santhan kaa sehaaee ||
The Saints have Your Support, O Lord and Master; You are the Saints' Help and Support.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਦੀਏ ਰੁੜਾਈ ॥੪॥੨॥੪੧॥ 
kahu naanak santh har raakhae nindhak dheeeae rurraaee ||4||2||41||
Says Nanak, the Saints are saved by the Lord; the slanderers are drowned in the deep. ||4||2||41||

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
aasaa mehalaa 5 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਬਾਹਰੁ ਧੋਇ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੈਲਾ ਦੁਇ ਠਉਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਖੋਏ ॥ 
baahar dhhoe anthar man mailaa dhue thour apunae khoeae ||
He washes outwardly, but within, his mind is filthy; thus he loses his place in both worlds.

ਈਹਾ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਆਗੈ ਮੁਸਿ ਮੁਸਿ ਰੋਏ ॥੧॥ 
eehaa kaam krodhh mohi viaapiaa aagai mus mus roeae ||1||
Here, he is engrossed in sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment; hereafter, he shall sigh and weep. ||1||

ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਭਜਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਰਾ ॥ 
govindh bhajan kee math hai horaa ||
The way to vibrate and meditate on the Lord of the Universe is different.

ਵਰਮੀ ਮਾਰੀ ਸਾਪੁ ਨ ਮਰਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਸੁਨਈ ਡੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
varamee maaree saap n maree naam n sunee ddoraa ||1|| rehaao ||
Destroying the snake-hole, the snake is not killed; the deaf person does not hear the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਇਆ ਕੀ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਵਾਈ ਭਗਤੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ 
maaeiaa kee kirath shhodd gavaaee bhagathee saar n jaanai ||
He renounces the affairs of Maya, but he does not appreciate the value of devotional worship.

ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਕਉ ਤਰਕਨਿ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਤੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥੨॥ 
baedh saasathr ko tharakan laagaa thath jog n pashhaanai ||2||
He finds fault with the Vedas and the Shaastras, and does not know the essence of Yoga. ||2||

ਉਘਰਿ ਗਇਆ ਜੈਸਾ ਖੋਟਾ ਢਬੂਆ ਨਦਰਿ ਸਰਾਫਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
oughar gaeiaa jaisaa khottaa dtabooaa nadhar saraafaa aaeiaa ||
He stands exposed, like a counterfeit coin, when inspected by the Lord, the Assayer.
~SGGS Ji p. 381​


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt.  How dare Sikhs do so.  (More Gurbani quotes continued.)

ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਜਨ ਪੁਕਾਰਹਿ ਸੁਨੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਡੋਰਾ ॥ 
baedh saasathr jan pukaarehi sunai naahee ddoraa ||
The Vedas, the Shaastras and the holy men proclaim it, but the deaf do not hear it.

ਨਿਪਟਿ ਬਾਜੀ ਹਾਰਿ ਮੂਕਾ ਪਛੁਤਾਇਓ ਮਨਿ ਭੋਰਾ ॥੨॥ 
nipatt baajee haar mookaa pashhuthaaeiou man bhoraa ||2||
When the game of life is over, and he has lost, and he breathes his last, then the fool regrets and repents in his mind. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 408​
ਸਾਸਤੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੁਰਸਰੀ ਚਰਣ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ 
saasath baedh sinmrith sar thaeraa surasaree charan samaanee ||
The Shaastras, the Vedas and the Simritees are contained in the ocean of Your Name; the River Ganges is held in Your Feet.

ਸਾਖਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਮੂਲੁ ਮਤਿ ਰਾਵੈ ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਸਰਬ ਵਿਡਾਣੀ ॥੧॥ 
saakhaa theen mool math raavai thoon thaan sarab viddaanee ||1||
The intellect can understand the world of the three modes, but You, O Primal Lord, are totally astounding. ||1||  

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੋਲੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
thaa kae charan japai jan naanak bolae anmrith baanee ||1|| rehaao ||
Servant Nanak meditates on His Feet, and chants the Ambrosial Word of His Bani. ||1||Pause||

ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਦਾਸ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰੀ ॥ 
thaethees karorree dhaas thumhaarae ridhh sidhh praan adhhaaree ||
Three hundred thirty million gods are Your servants. You bestow wealth, and the supernatural powers of the Siddhas; You are the Support of the breath of life.
~SGGS Ji p. 422​ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥ 
visamaadh naadh visamaadh vaedh ||
Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 463​
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
kudharath vaedh puraan kathaebaa kudharath sarab veechaar ||
By His Power the Vedas and the Puraanas exist, and the Holy Scriptures of the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions. By His Power all deliberations exist.
~SGGS Ji p. 464​
ਉਰਧ ਮੂਲ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਾਖ ਤਲਾਹਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ 
ouradhh mool jis saakh thalaahaa chaar baedh jith laagae ||
Its roots extend upwards, and its branches reach down; the four Vedas are attached to it.

ਸਹਜ ਭਾਇ ਜਾਇ ਤੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਿਵ ਜਾਗੇ ॥੨॥ 
sehaj bhaae jaae thae naanak paarabreham liv jaagae ||2||
He alone reaches this tree with ease, O Nanak, who remains wakeful in the Love of the Supreme Lord God. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 503​
ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ 
aapae vaedh puraan sabh saasath aap kathhai aap bheejai ||
He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥ 
aapae hee behi poojae karathaa aap parapanch kareejai ||
He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world.

ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥ 
aap paravirath aap niravirathee aapae akathh kathheejai ||
He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable.

ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥ 
aapae punn sabh aap karaaeae aap alipath varatheejai ||
He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached.
~SGGS Ji p. 551​
ਮਾਈ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰੋ ਬਸਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ 
maaee man maero bas naahi ||
O mother, my mind is out of control.  

ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਬਿਖਿਅਨ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਤ ਕਿਹਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਰੋਕਉ ਤਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
nis baasur bikhian ko dhhaavath kihi bidhh roko thaahi ||1|| rehaao ||
Night and day, it runs after sin and corruption. How can I restrain it? ||1||Pause||

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕੇ ਮਤ ਸੁਨਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਹੀਏ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith kae math sun nimakh n heeeae basaavai ||
He listens to the teachings of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, but he does not enshrine them in his heart, even for an instant.
~SGGS Ji p. 632​
ਬੇਦ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕਥੈ ਸਾਸਤ ਭਗਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
baedh sinmrith kathhai saasath bhagath karehi beechaar ||
The Vedas, the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Lord's devotees contemplate Him;

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ 
mukath paaeeai saadhhasangath binas jaae andhhaar ||3||
liberation is attained in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 675​
ਘੋਖੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾਂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਕਾਰਹਿ ਘੋਖ ॥ 
ghokhae mun jan sinmrith puraanaan baedh pukaarehi ghokh ||
I have studied with the silent sages, and carefully read the Simritees, the Puraanas and the Vedas; they all proclaim that,

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਦੋਵੈ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ਲੋਕ ॥੧॥ 
kirapaa sindhh saev sach paaeeai dhovai suhaelae lok ||1||
by serving the Lord, the ocean of mercy, Truth is obtained, and both this world and the next are embellished. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 682​
ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਚੁਤ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਜਸੁ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਗਾਇਆ ॥ 
pooran purakh achuth abinaasee jas vaedh puraanee gaaeiaa ||
The Vedas and the Puraanas sing the Praises of the Perfect, Unchanging, Imperishable Primal Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 783​
ਧਰਮ ਅਰਥ ਕਾਮ ਸਭਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦੀ ਇਛ ਪੁਜਾਏ ॥ 
dhharam arathh kaam sabh pooran man chindhee eishh pujaaeae ||
He is overflowing with Dharmic faith, wealth and success; He fulfills the desires of the mind.

ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ 
sraath simrith gun gaavehi karathae sidhh saadhhik mun jan dhhiaaeiaa ||
The Vedas and the Simritees sing the Praises of the Creator, while the Siddhas, seekers and silent sages meditate on Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 785​


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so. (More Gurbani quotes continued prt 3.)

ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
dheevaa balai andhhaeraa jaae ||
When the lamp is lit, the darkness is dispelled;

ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਖਾਇ ॥ 
baedh paath math paapaa khaae ||
reading the Vedas, sinful intellect is destroyed.

ਉਗਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਚੰਦੁ ॥ 
ougavai soor n jaapai chandh ||
When the sun rises, the moon is not visible.

ਜਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮਿਟੰਤੁ ॥ 
jeh giaan pragaas agiaan mittanth ||
Wherever spiritual wisdom appears, ignorance is dispelled.
~SGGS Ji p. 791​
ਜਤੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਓਨਾ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੨॥ 
jath sanjam theerathh ounaa jugaa kaa dhharam hai kal mehi keerath har naamaa ||2||
Celibacy, self-discipline and pilgrimages were the essence of Dharma in those past ages; but in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Praise of the Lord's Name is the essence of Dharma. ||2

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਧਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ 
jug jug aapo aapanaa dhharam hai sodhh dhaekhahu baedh puraanaa ||
Each and every age has its own essence of Dharma; study the Vedas and the Puraanas, and see this as true.
~SGGS Ji p. 797​
ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲ ਭੈ ਕਾਟਨਹਾਰੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal bhai kaattanehaarae ||
He is the Lover and Protector of His devotees, the Destroyer of fear.

ਸੰਸਾਰ ਸਾਗਰ ਅਬ ਉਤਰੇ ਪਾਰੇ ॥੨॥ 
sansaar saagar ab outharae paarae ||2||
Now, I have been carried across the world-ocean. ||2||  

ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੇਦਿ ਲੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
pathith paavan prabh biradh baedh laekhiaa ||
It is God's Way to purify sinners, say the Vedas.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੋ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਪੇਖਿਆ ॥੩॥ 
paarabreham so nainahu paekhiaa ||3||
I have seen the Supreme Lord with my eyes. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 805​
ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥ 
simrith saasathr baedh puraan ||
The Simritees, Shaastras, Vedas and Puraanas

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ॥ 
paarabreham kaa karehi vakhiaan ||
expound upon the Supreme Lord God.
~SGGS Ji p. 867​
ਸਭਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
sabh naadh baedh gurabaanee ||
Gurbani is the sound current of the Naad, the Vedas, everything.

ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਣੀ ॥ 
man raathaa saarigapaanee ||
My mind is attuned to the Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 879​
ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥ 
chathur baedh pooran har naae ||
The four Vedas are completely contained within the Lord's Name. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੪॥੬॥੧੭॥ 
naanak this kee saranee paae ||4||6||17||
Nanak seeks His Sanctuary. ||4||6||17||
~SGGS Ji p. 888​
ਵਾਚੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ 
vaachai vaadh n baedh beechaarai ||
You study the arguments, but do not contemplate the Vedas. 

ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਕਿਉ ਪਿਤਰਾ ਤਾਰੈ ॥ 
aap ddubai kio pitharaa thaarai ||
You drown yourself - how will you save your ancestors? 

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
ghatt ghatt breham cheenai jan koe ||
How rare is that person who realizes that God is in each and every heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 904​
ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥ 
vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.  

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਸਚੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਕੂੜੇ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥੧੯॥ 
kehai naanak jin sach thajiaa koorrae laagae thinee janam jooai haariaa ||19||
Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. ||19||
~SGGS Ji p. 919​
ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਨਿਰਮਏ ॥ 
ouankaar baedh nirameae ||
Ongkaar created the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 929​
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ 
guramukh saasathr simrith baedh ||
The Gurmukh understands the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 942​
ਸਾਸਤੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
saasath baedh n maanai koe ||
No one obeys the Shaastras or the Vedas.

ਆਪੋ ਆਪੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
aapo aapai poojaa hoe ||
Everyone worships himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 951​
ਜਿਹ ਮੁਖ ਬੇਦੁ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੁ ਬਿਸਰੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ 
jih mukh baedh gaaeithree nikasai so kio brehaman bisar karai ||
O Brahmin, how can you forget the One, from whose mouth the Vedas and the Gayitri prayer issured forth?

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪਾਇ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਕਹੈ ॥੧॥ 
jaa kai paae jagath sabh laagai so kio panddith har n kehai ||1||
The whole world falls at His feet; why don't you chant the Name of that Lord, O Pandit? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 970​
ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਤੇਤੀਸ ਧਿਆਇਓ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਆ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
kott kott thaethees dhhiaaeiou har japathiaa anth n paaeiaa ||
Millions and millions, three hundred thirty million gods meditate on Him; there is no end to those who meditate on the Lord. 

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਇਆ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith har japiaa mukh panddith har gaaeiaa ||
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees meditate on the Lord; the Pandits, the religious scholars, sing the Lord's Praises as well.

ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸਾਲੁ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥੩॥ 
naam rasaal jinaa man vasiaa thae guramukh paar paeiaa ||3||
Those whose minds are filled with the Naam, the source of nectar - as Gurmukh, they cross over. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 995​
ਅਗਮ ਨਿਗਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ 
agam nigam sathiguroo dhikhaaeiaa ||
The True Guru has revealed the essence of the Shaastras and the Vedas.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਅਪਨੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ 
kar kirapaa apanai ghar aaeiaa ||
In His Mercy, He has come into the home of my self.
~SGGS Ji p. 1016​


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so. (More Gurbani quotes continued prt 4.)

ਹਰਿ ਆਗਿਆ ਹੋਏ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
har aagiaa hoeae baedh paap punn veechaariaa ||
By the Will of the Lord, the Vedas came into being; they discriminate between sin and virtue.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਿਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun bisathhaariaa ||
You created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and the expanse of the three qualities.
~SGGS Ji p. 1094​
ਜੋਗ ਭੇਖ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ਕਾਪੜਾਏ ॥ 
jog bhaekh sanniaasai paekhiou jath jangam kaaparraaeae ||
I have seen Him among the Yogis, the Sannyaasees, the celibates, the wandering hermits and the wearers of patched coats.

ਤਪੀ ਤਪੀਸੁਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਨਟ ਨਾਟਿਕ ਨਿਰਤਾਏ ॥੨॥ 
thapee thapeesur mun mehi paekhiou natt naattik nirathaaeae ||2||
I have seen Him among the men of severe self-discipline, the silent sages, the actors, dramas and dances. ||2|| 

ਚਹੁ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਖਟ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਦਸ ਅਸਟੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਏ ॥ 
chahu mehi paekhiou khatt mehi paekhiou dhas asattee sinmrithaaeae ||
I have seen Him in the four Vedas, I have seen Him in the six Shaastras, in the eighteen Puraanas and the Simritees as well.

ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਨਹਿ ਤਉ ਕਿਸ ਤੇ ਕਹਉ ਦੁਰਾਏ ॥੩॥ 
sabh mil eaeko eaek vakhaanehi tho kis thae keho dhuraaeae ||3||
All together, they declare that there is only the One Lord. So tell me, from whom is He hidden? ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 1139​
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ 
naanak sodhhae sinmrith baedh ||
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੪॥ 
paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||
~SGGS Ji p. 1142​
ਆਪੇ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੇਦੁ ॥ 
aapae saasath aapae baedh ||
He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.

ਆਪੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦੁ ॥ 
aapae ghatt ghatt jaanai bhaedh ||
He knows the secrets of each and every heart.  

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਵਥੁ ॥ 
joth saroop jaa kee sabh vathh ||
He is the Embodiment of Light; all beings belong to Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 1150​
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਠਾਂਢੀ ॥ 
har kae naam kee gath thaandtee ||
The Name of the Lord is cooling and soothing.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਕਾਢੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith saadhhoo jan khojath khojath kaadtee ||1|| rehaao ||
Searching, searching the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the Holy Saints have realized this. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 1219​
ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਰਬਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥੧॥ 
charan kamal preeth man baedhhiaa kar sarabas anthar raakhee ||1||
My mind is pierced through by the Love of Your Lotus Feet; this is everything to me - I enshrine it deep within my being. ||1|| 

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਭਾਖੀ ॥ 
baedh puraan simrith saadhhoo jan eih baanee rasanaa bhaakhee ||
In the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the humble and the Holy chant this Bani with their tongues.
~SGGS Ji p. 1227​
ਸੋਭਾ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ 
sobhaa thaa kee apar apaar ||
His Glory is Infinite and Endless.  

ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਗਨੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 
anik rang jaa kae ganae n jaahi ||
His many plays cannot be counted.

ਸੋਗ ਹਰਖ ਦੁਹਹੂ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥ 
sog harakh dhuhehoo mehi naahi ||2||
He is not subject to pleasure or pain. ||2||

ਅਨਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਬੇਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਰਹਿ ॥ 
anik brehamae jaa kae baedh dhhun karehi ||
Many Brahmas vibrate Him in the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1235​
ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਰਾਗਂ​*ੀ ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਵੇਦਂ​*ੀ ॥ 
jooth n raaganaee jooth n vaedhanaee ||
Impurity does not come from music; impurity does not come from the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1240​
ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦਂ​*ੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
kathhaa kehaanee baedhanaee aanee paap punn beechaar ||
The Vedas bring forth stories and legends, and thoughts of vice and virtue.
~SGGS Ji p. 1243​
ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਕਾ ਬੀਉ ॥ 
baedh pukaarae punn paap surag narak kaa beeo ||
The Vedas proclaim that vice and virtue are the seeds of heaven and hell.

ਜੋ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਉਗਵੈ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
jo beejai so ougavai khaandhaa jaanai jeeo ||
Whatever is planted, shall grow. The soul eats the fruits of its actions, and understands.

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਸਲਾਹੇ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
giaan salaahae vaddaa kar sacho sachaa naao ||
Whoever praises spiritual wisdom as great, becomes truthful in the True Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1243​
ਇਕਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਸੁਘੜ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ 
eik kehi jaanehi kehiaa bujhehi thae nar sugharr saroop ||
Some know how to speak, and understand what they are told. They are wise and beautiful.

ਇਕਨਾ ਨਾਦ ਨ ਬੇਦ ਨ ਗੀਅ ਰਸੁ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਨ ਜਾਣੰਤਿ ॥ 
eikanaa naadh n baedh n geea ras ras kas n jaananth ||
Some do not understand about the Sound-current of the Naad or the Vedas, music, virtue or vice.

ਇਕਨਾ ਸੁਧਿ ਨ ਬੁਧਿ ਨ ਅਕਲਿ ਸਰ ਅਖਰ ਕਾ ਭੇਉ ਨ ਲਹੰਤਿ ॥ 
eikanaa sudhh n budhh n akal sar akhar kaa bhaeo n lehanth ||
Some are not blessed with understanding, intelligence, or sublime intellect; they do not grasp the mystery of God's Word.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇ ਨਰ ਅਸਲਿ ਖਰ ਜਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਰਬੁ ਕਰੰਤਿ ॥੨॥ 
naanak sae nar asal khar j bin gun garab karanth ||2||
O Nanak, they are donkeys; they are very proud of themselves, but they have no virtues at all. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1246​
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ 
guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.  

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||
The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1270​
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈਗੋ ॥ 
guramukh naadh baedh hai guramukh gur parachai naam dhhiaavaigo ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad, The Guru's Word is the wisdom of the Vedas; coming in contact with the Guru, meditate on the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 1311​
ਗੁਨ ਨਾਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਅਨੰਦ ਬੇਦ ॥ 
gun naadh dhhun anandh baedh ||
The Glory of God is the Sound-current of the Naad, the Celestial Music of Bliss, and the Wisdom of the Vedas.

ਕਥਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
kathhath sunath mun janaa mil santh manddalee ||1|| rehaao ||
Speaking and listening, the silent sages and humble beings join together, in the Realm of the Saints. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 1322​
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ 
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350​
ਧਰਨਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੀ ਰਹਿਓ ਭਰਿ ॥ 
dhharan gagan nav khandd mehi joth svaroopee rehiou bhar ||
He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥ 
bhan mathhuraa kashh bhaedh nehee gur arajun parathakhy har ||7||19||
So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

ਅਜੈ ਗੰਗ ਜਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਸਿਖ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਭ ਨਾਵੈ ॥ 
ajai gang jal attal sikh sangath sabh naavai ||
The stream of the Lord's Name flows like the Ganges, invincible and unstoppable. The Sikhs of the Sangat all bathe in it. 

ਨਿਤ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਬਾਚੀਅਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ 
nith puraan baacheeahi baedh brehamaa mukh gaavai ||
It appears as if the holy texts like the Puraanaas are being recited there and Brahma himself sings the Vedas.

ਅਜੈ ਚਵਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਢੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੀਅਉ ॥ 
ajai chavar sir dtulai naam anmrith mukh leeao ||
The invincible chauri, the fly-brush, waves over His head; with His mouth, He drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes, in the Vedas Om is defined as Parabrahm. In the Vaishnava Puranas it is defined as Trimurthi, as was explained in previous post.

*Well by your own words, in Veda it is **OM** only, that **Om** was used to do the trade later on and a lot of stuff was added in to Vedas to run their business in religions. If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff,  it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism,” do this thing and get that” as per Mehla-1, Mehla 2( quoted numerous times who cares)*. *Then in Purana that **OM** is defined trimurthy, Vashnava or who ever, they stuck there and try to find that desperately in Guru Nanak’s definition about HIM. Forcing literally trimurthy on Him without any evidence, that shows what  intentions they have*.
  look how the sanatan view is abused right before your eyes, and moderators talk about "fairness."
*Well Bhain ji, I am not supporter of any group, what so ever, I find Gurbani being abused by you, you don’t feel about that, only that worries you is Sanatna or Hindus; you don’t even like to blame fanatic Hindus who play same dirty game as Fanatic Sikhs do. I blame both and you just pass by it because that is not your concern only. You questions MOD’s fairness, why don’t you see what you are doing? Using Bhai Gurdas at your convenient but when he promotes truth about Castes as per Guru ji, you still prefer to stick to one word” Sodhi”  You should also read that part of History where Guru ji received anger from Hindu kings just because he was promoting low class equally. Digging out none sense that Gurus were married in high class but ignoring all that goes against Caste in Gurbani and in Bhai Gurdas ji’s writings. Is it fairness, if we are not fair what right we have to ask for fairness? You called Guru Nanak Vashnava, I shall prove even Kabir ji didn’t follow that Vashnava as per his writings, history is totally vague about him but some just trying to label him with and that even by ignoring his writings( as you did showing no respect what Guru Nanak says about his own enlightenment). Please wait I shall show you how he looks at all those avataras you advocate for Sikhs to follow.*


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## pk70 (Aug 4, 2008)

_As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, *see how they tell disgusting tales*
Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? *Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories* in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with *contaminated one.*_
  What I have is "*Disgusting*." "*Contaminated*." You have the "*Gold*." Amazing prejudice. Amazing distortion of the truth. And all in the name of a fair and respectful spiritual discussion. FYI, it's not a "pick and choose" policy which takes one to Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas for clarity of definition. But the fact that clarity of understanding is sought for the terms and concepts which are in Gurbani. It is the study of Gurbani which leads to study of the other scriptures. Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so! (Gurbani quotes will prove this.)

*Not really, Gurbani also warns about that those scriptures saying they would not help, Vedas taught trade (quotes were given numerous times, you ignore as usual), *
*Let’s define disgusting and contaminated aspect of those scriptures and I used word Gold for Guru Granth Sahib, you also have that, haven’t you? Or you just cannot accept that praise of Guru Granth Sahib? If not prove me if any obscenity, human sacrifice and porno level stories recorded in SGGS Ji, if you don’t find, it is pure Gold without contamination. Vedas were not written by any one or two persons. Good stuff found in Vedas was corrupted time to time. Even Bhagwat Geeta speaks against them because of that part.. That is the reason I used“contaminated” word. When purity is mixed with some thing, we call it contaminated. You are taking it as personal; I wonder why you do that. When Sikh80 wrote” Gurbani doesn’t make any sense” Bhain ji, you didn’t say a word; now you have taken the right word as a curse. I can wonder only!!!!!!*
*Why I am saying pick and chose policy?  Bhain ji, You are quoting all that stuff  just to support that you are right in advocacy of Vedas, Sanatana and Vashnava.; being a fair reader, in stead of getting too highly sympathizer with those only, you should also quote those dirty stories filled with obscenity and human sacrifices. I mentioned their names like  Shiv Puran etc, you can find and bring it here, then we will see how pure or worth they are to guide others to spirituality*.
*The  Gurbani quotes you filled your post with are one liner, read them in context of whole Shabadas, message is different, understand one thing, when Mehla 1 and Mehla 2 say” Vedas teach trade, only Guru talks about Knowledge about Him” that makes it clear that  even if there were something good about the Creator in there,  it was molded by Brahmans to run their religious business, that thing was also said by writer of Bhagwat Ge*eta*. So don’t abuse Gurbani for that cause which was made clear by Guru himself please. 
*
*Please wait for those Shabadas which do not support you at all.*


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## spnadmin (Aug 4, 2008)

An interesting perspective by Nihang Sukha Singh Akaali
*
(**with the audio and katha available at this site*  http://hukam.sikhnet.com/2007/10/25/hukamnama-translation-october-25-2007)

jYqsrI bwxI Bgqw kI (710-14) 
_jaitsaree banee bhagtaa kee (710-14) 
__Jaitsree, The Word Of The devotees: (710-14) 
_

<> siqgur pRswid ] 
_ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad. 
__One Continuous God, Eternal, True, Divine Enlightener, Merciful, Guru’s Grace. 
_

nwQ kCUA n jwnau ] 
_naath kachhoo-a na jaan-o. 
__O my Lord and Master, I know nothing. 
_

mnu mwieAw kY hwiQ ibkwnau ]1] rhwau ] 
_man maa-i-aa kai haath bikaana-o. ||1|| rahaa-o. 
__My mind has sold out, and is in Maya’s hands. ||1||Pause||_

qum khIAq hO jgq gur suAwmI ] 
_tum kahee-at hou jagat gur su-aamee. 
__You are called the Lord and Master, the Guru of the World. 
_

hm khIAq kiljug ky kwmI ]1] 
_ham kahee-at kalijug kay kaamee. ||1|| 
__I am called a lustful being of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||1||_

ien pMcn myro mnu ju ibgwirE ] 
_in panchan mayro man jo bigaari-o. 
__The five vices have corrupted my mind. 
_

plu plu hir jI qy AMqru pwirE ]2] 
_pal pal har jee tay antar paari-o. ||2|| 
__Moment by moment, they lead me further away from the Lord. ||2||_

jq dyKau qq duK kI rwsI ] 
_jat daykh-a-u tat dukh kee raasee. 
__Wherever I look, I see loads of pain and suffering. 
_

AjON n piqAwie ingm Bey swKI ]3] 
_ajouN na pat-yaa-ay nigam bha-ay saakhee. ||3|| 
__I do not have faith, even though the Vedas bear witness to the Lord. ||3||_

goqm nwir aumwpiq suAwmI   ] sIsu Drin shs Bg gWmI ]4] 
_gotam naar umaapat savaamee. sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee. ||4|| 
__Shiva cut off Brahma’s head, and Gautam’s wife and the Lord Indra mated; Brahma’s head got stuck to Shiva’s hand, and Indra came to bear the marks of a thousand female organs. ||4||_

ien dUqn Klu bDu kir mwirE ] 
_in dootan khal baDh kar maari-o. 
__These demons have fooled, bound and destroyed me. 
_

bfo inlwju AjhU nhI hwirE ]5] 
_bado nilaaj ajhoo nahee haari-o. ||5|| 
__I am very shameless - even now, I am not tired of them. ||5||_

kih rivdws khw kYsy kIjY ] 
_kahi ravidaas kahaa kaisay keejai. 
__Says Ravi Daas, what am I to do now? 
_

ibnu rGunwQ srin kw kI lIjY ]6]1] 
_bin raghunaath saran kaa kee leejai. ||6||1|| 
__Without the Sanctuary of the Lord’s Protection, who else’s should I seek? ||6||1||_

Text of katha by Sukha Singh ji follows: 

_"Bhagat Ravidasji_ talks to us today in the _Jaitsree Raag_. A _raag_ in which there is intense longing to be one with the All Mighty, to be one with the great _Waheguru_. The longing is so great that is burns. In this _raag Bhagat Ravidasji_ says, “_Ik-oNkaar_”, there is one universal, creative, nourishing and destructive being. The _ik-oNkaar_ is found through _satgur parsaad_; through the true Guru’s, _satgur’s_, grace, _parsaad_. 



 'After this _mangla charan_, this beginning _Bhagat Ravidasji_ says, “_Naath kachhoo-a na jaan-o.” Naath_, Oh my Lord, Oh my husband, Oh my master, _kachhoo_ means anything, _na_ means to not, _jaan-o_ means to know. I do not know anything, I know nothing. _Bhagat Ravdasji_ is crying out saying, “Oh my lord I don’t know anything, I know nothing.” “_Man maa-i-aa kai haath bikaana-o. rahaa-o_.” Man; my mind, _maa-i-aa kai haath_ means the hands of the illusion of this world, _bikaana-o_ means to be sold. My mind has been sold out, to what? To this illusion and now my mind is under the control of this illusion, is in the hands of this illusion around me. _Rahaa-o. Bhagatji_ says “Pause and think about this.” 



 ' “_Tum kahee-at hou jagat gur su-aamee_.” Oh _Waheguru, tum kahee-at hou_; you are called, _jagat gur_ means the Guru of the world, the teacher of the world, the _su-aamee_, the lord and master. But then _Bhagatji_ says, “_Ham kahee-at kalijug kay kaamee.” Ham kahee-at_ means I am called, _kaamee_ means lustful, desirefilled. But I am merely a lustfilled, desirefilled being in this _kalijug_; in this dark _jug_, in this age of darkness. 



 ' “_In panchan mayro man jo bigaari-o.” In_ means these, _panchan_ means five, _mayro_ means mine, _man_ means mind, _bigaari-o_ means to be corrupted. These five vices, which five? _Kaam_; lust, _Krodh_; anger, _Lobh_; greed, _Moh_; attachment and _Ahnkaar_; ego. These five vices have _bigaari-o_, have corrupted my mind, polluted my mind. “_Pal pal har jee tay antar paari-o.” Pal-pal_, moment by moment, instant by instant, _har jee tay_; from _Waheguruji_, from my _Hari, antar_ means my inside, _paari-o_ means to tear away, to rip away. Moment by moment, instant by instant, these five vices are leading my away from _Waheguruji_, they are tearing me apart from _Waheguruji_. 



 ' Then _Bhagatji says_, “_Jat daykh-a-u tat dukh kee raasee_.” Jat means wherever, _daykh-a-u_ means to look, wherever I look _tat_; in that place _dukh kee raasee_, I see _raasee_ which means a treasure. There is so much treasure. But what is this a treasure of though? _Bhagatji_ says, “_Dukh kee_; of pain.” _Bhagatji_ says, “Wherever I look I see so much pain, I see so much suffering but what does my mind do? _AjouN na pat-yaa-ay nigam bha-ay saakhee.” AjouN_ means even then, _na pat-yaa-ay_ means to not believe, to not understand. Even then my mind doesn’t understand, doesn’t wake up from this illusion. “_Nigam bha-ay saakhee_.” Even though the _Nigams_, the _Vedas_ and all of the scriptures through out the ages tell me not to fall into these five vices but my mind still doesn’t listen. 



 ' “_Gotam naar umaapat savaamee. sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee_.” Then _Bhagatji_ gives some examples from Indian methology about being fallen from grace. _Bhagatji_ says, “_Gotam naar_.” There was a saint called Gautam and his wife’s name was Ahalia, _naar_ means the wife of. The wife of Gautam, Ahalia, had fallen prey to desire with the king of the God’s, of the _Devtay_ Indar’s in Indian methology. What _Bhagatji_ is saying is, “_Gotam naar_; the wife of such a saint was prey to _Kaam_, to lust, _umaapat savaamee.” Umaa_ is talking about Parvati, who was the wife of Shiva, _pat_ means husband, _savaame_ means Lord. Even Shiva was enticed away from his meditation through lust. According to Indian mythology when the world was churned up all the universes were churned up there was an incarnation of Vishnu called _Mohni_ who was so beautiful that she enticed Shivaji away from his meditation. “_Sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee_.” Brahma who is known as the creative being in the Indian methology, also fell prey to lust over his own daughter, according to the mythology. _Sees Dharan_ means he created five heads for himself out of that lust to look at his daughter, according to the methology. “_Sahas bhag gaaNmee.” Bhag_ is the female genital organ. What is said is that when the king of the Gods, Indra, had sexual relationships with the wife of Gautam he was cursed by Gautam to have all his body covered in the female organs.* Now what Bhagatji is saying in all of this by giving these examples is that, “All these beings have fallen prey to these desires. Look how they have fallen down.” Bhagatji is saying. This is not a worship of those beings. Do not get confused. Bhagatji is showing their weaknesses and saying, “These weaknesses are in us as well.” That’s why Bhagatji has mentioned this. *"



 Then _Bhagatji_ says, “_In dootan khal baDh kar maari-o.” In dootan_; these demons, _Bhagatji_ calls the five vices “these demons”, _khal baDh_ means to tie me up, _kar maari-o_ which means to break down, to beat. These vices, they have bound me down, they have beaten me. “_Bado nilaaj ajhoo nahee haari-o.” Bhagatji_ says, “What are we like? We are _Bado nilaaj_; we are shameless.” _Nilaaj_ means to have no shame, _ajhoo_; even now, _nahee_; we do not, _haari-o_; get tired. We don’t get tired of falling into desire, anger, attachment, greed and ego. 



 In the last line _Bhagatji_ says, “_Kahi ravidaas kahaa kaisay keejai.” kahi ravidaas_ means Ravidas says, _kahaa kaisay keejai_ means what can I do now, what shall I do now? What is there left to do? Bhagatji answers all of the questions with one line, “_Bin raghunaath saran kaa kee leejai.” Bin_; Without _raghunaath_; without _Waheguruji’s saran; Waheguru’s_ sanctuary, _Waheguru’s_ protection _kaa kee leejai_; whose else’s protection should I seek? _Bhagatji_ says, “I fall at your feet, Oh _Waheguru_, I know I know nothing and I know I am full of sins but I have no where else to go. You are the redeemer, you are my beloved and I ask you to destroy all these sins from within me and bless me with your grace.”


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 4, 2008)

> _Well by your own words, in Veda it is OM only, that Om was used to do the trade later on and a lot of stuff was added in to Vedas to run their business in religions.* If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism,” *do this thing and get that” as per Mehla-1, Mehla 2( quoted numerous times who cares). Then in Purana that OM is defined trimurthy, Vashnava or who ever, they stuck there and try to find that desperately in Guru Nanak’s definition about HIM. Forcing literally trimurthy on Him without any evidence, that shows what intentions they have._


First, about the issue of "trade" in Gurbani.  By your phrase: "_If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism.” _  Are you unable to see the prejudice in this viewpoint?  Are you really unable to see that the entire issue has been one of addressing the incredible and unsupportable hostility Sikhs have for Hinduism based on radical misinterpretations of Gurbani like these?

As has been pointed out, there is nothing so corrupted or hypocritical within the Hindu religion that hasn't also found it's way in the Sikh religion.  So please, for the 99th time, PLEASE stop trying to judge the demerits of Hinduism as if this were it's only definition.


Does it occur to you that Gurbani doesn't speak in a derogatory way about "trade" in the way you infer?  For example, lets look at the Gurbani:


ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
har bhagathaa har dhhan raas hai gur pooshh karehi vaapaar ||
The devotees of the Lord have the Wealth and Capital of the Lord; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.  

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
har naam salaahan sadhaa sadhaa vakhar har naam adhhaar ||
They praise the Name of the Lord forever and ever. The Name of the Lord is their Merchandise and Support. 

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਅਤੁਟੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ 
gur poorai har naam dhrirraaeiaa har bhagathaa athutt bhanddaar ||1||
The Perfect Guru has implanted the Name of the Lord into the Lord's devotees; it is an Inexhaustible Treasure. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 28​

Is "trade" in the above context negative?  No!  In fact, it is used to illustrate something positive, like spiritual investment.


ਵਸਤੁ ਲਹੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਚਲੈ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸਾਰਿ ॥ 
vasath lehai ghar aapanai chalai kaaraj saar ||
He finds the merchandise within his own home, and departs after arranging his affairs. 

ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੩॥ 
vanajaariaa sio vanaj kar guramukh breham beechaar ||3||
So trade with the true traders, and as Gurmukh, contemplate God. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 56​

Don't you see how endlessly ridiculous it is for you to ignore dozens and dozens of positive tuuks in Gurbani with speak positively of Vedas, Smritis and Puranas and warn NOT to speak bad of them, yet you continue to accuse Vedas themselves, as written documents, "of trade."  Can't you even see logically, that "trade" in this context is something the human beings are doing and not the scriptures themselves?


ਧਰਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ਨ ਕੀਤੋ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੀਤੋ ਮਿਤੁ ॥ 
dhharam saethee vaapaar n keetho karam n keetho mith ||
You have not traded in righteousness and Dharma; you have not made good deeds your friends.
~SGGS Ji p. 75​

So we can even find tuuks in Gurbani which are _telling us to trade_... but in the right spiritual context.  Therefore it must be determined, that "trade" is something altogether neutral, and depends on the "intention" of the person.  And if we judge in this context, the negativity you impugn against ALL Hindus and against ALL Hindu scriptures, must be carefully weighed by every individual, including Sikhs who may be guilty of the same insincerity.  So we cannot judge as wholly negative, Hinduism and Hindu scriptures and Hindu people, without first examining the intentions of _OUR_ own hearts.


ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਜਿਨ ਵਖਰੁ ਲਦਿਅੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
dhhan dhhan vanaj vaapaareeaa jin vakhar ladhiarraa har raas ||
Blessed, blessed is the trade of those traders who have loaded the merchandise of the Wealth of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 82​


ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ਸਚੇ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥ 
sachaa saahu sachae vanajaarae ||
True is the Banker, and true are His traders.

ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਹੇਤਿ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥ 
sach vananjehi gur haeth apaarae ||
They purchase Truth, with infinite love for the Guru.

ਸਚੁ ਵਿਹਾਝਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥ 
sach vihaajhehi sach kamaavehi sacho sach kamaavaniaa ||4||
They deal in Truth, and they practice Truth. They earn Truth, and only Truth. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 117​


ਇਕਿ ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਵਣਜਦੇ ਇਕਿ ਕਚੈ ਦੇ ਵਾਪਾਰਾ ॥ 
eik rathan padhaarathh vanajadhae eik kachai dhae vaapaaraa ||
Some trade in priceless jewels, while others deal in mere glass.
~SGGS Ji p. 141​


ਹੋਰੁ ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਏ ਅਨੰਤ ਤਰੰਗੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
hor vanaj karehi vaapaareeeae ananth tharangee dhukh maaeiaa ||
Those traders who trade in other merchandise, are caught up in the endless waves of the pain of Maya.
~SGGS Ji p. 165​


ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥ 
maanas khaanae karehi nivaaj ||
The man-eaters say their prayers.

ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥ 
shhuree vagaaein thin gal thaag ||
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥ 
thin ghar brehaman poorehi naadh ||
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.  

ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥ 
ounhaa bh aavehi ouee saadh ||
They too have the same taste. 

ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
koorree raas koorraa vaapaar ||
False is their capital, and false is their trade.  

ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ 
koorr bol karehi aahaar ||
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.  

ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
saram dhharam kaa ddaeraa dhoor ||
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ 
naanak koorr rehiaa bharapoor ||
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.  

ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥ 
mathhai ttikaa thaerr dhhothee kakhaaee ||
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;  

ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥ 
hathh shhuree jagath kaasaaee ||
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!
~SGGS Ji p. 471​

As Gurbani shows, the insincere person of evil intent, even if he has the appearance of holiness and pretends to be a brahmin, while acting against justice, while acting against righteous dharma, to oppress others, this kind of person has the false trade, and not the spiritual trade.  Are we to blindly imply that this refers to every brahmin?  Is every brahmin being described by this description?



ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਜਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥ 
breham bindhae so braahaman keheeai j anadhin har liv laaeae ||
One who understands God, who lovingly centers his mind on the Lord night and day, is called a Brahmin.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਛੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਏ ॥ 
sathigur pushhai sach sanjam kamaavai houmai rog this jaaeae ||
Consulting the True Guru, he practices Truth and self-restraint, and he is rid of the disease of ego.

ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ 
har gun gaavai gun sangrehai jothee joth milaaeae ||
He sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and gathers in His Praises; his light is blended with the Light. 

ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥ 
eis jug mehi ko viralaa breham giaanee j houmai maett samaaeae ||
In this world, one who knows God is very rare; eradicating ego, he is absorbed in God.
~SGGS Ji p. 512
​

So we can see from Gurbani there are 2 kinds of brahmins.  A righteous brahmin, and an unrighteous brahmin.  The righteous brahmin is devoted to God and is not even limited to a caste designation, and the evil brahmin is hereditary only, has no devotion to God, and uses his political advantage to do unrighteous and unjust deeds to oppress others.

So it is by the intention of the heart, and by the actions we are judged for who we really are.  No religious pretense of holiness will fool Guru, and this message is as relevant for Sikhs as it is for Hindu caste of brahmins.  Realistically, just to be a brahmin doesn't mean you aren't poor or economically disadvantaged.  Just to be a brahmin doesn't mean you are fake and insincere.  Guruji's message was addressing corruptions of insight, to teach authentic spirituality.  And we go away from authentic spirituality when we judge falsely and make unjust accusations against an entire religion, or entire teachings of a religion, or hostile devaluation, and denigration of scriptures of Hinduism, contrary to meaning of Gurbani.


ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਸਗਲੇ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
kott madhhae ko viralaa saevak hor sagalae biouhaaree ||1|| rehaao ||
Out of millions, hardly anyone is a servant of the Lord. All the others are mere traders. ||1||Pause|| 

ਸਾਸਤ ਬੇਦ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਬਾਤ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥ 
saasath baedh simrith sabh sodhhae sabh eaekaa baath pukaaree ||
I have searched all the Shaastras, the Vedas and the Simritees, and they all affirm one thing: 

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੨॥ 
bin gur mukath n kooo paavai man vaekhahu kar beechaaree ||2||
without the Guru, no one obtains liberation; see, and reflect upon this in your mind. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 495
​

Hardly anyone... is a true servant... a true disciple... these are the fake traders.  And it isn't something Hindu's alone have a problem with, (for some reason Sikhs keep condemning Hindu religion as fake), but it is a problem of the whole world.  Everyone, including Sikhs has to confront the ways in which our own spirituality is compromised.  We can't keep "blaming brahmins," or "blaming Hindus," or "blaming Vedas."  It's an issue of authentic spirituality versus inauthentic.  It is NOT "us" against "them."


ਸਭਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
sabh naadh baedh gurabaanee ||
Gurbani is the sound current of the Naad, the Vedas, everything.

ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਣੀ ॥ 
man raathaa saarigapaanee ||
My mind is attuned to the Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 879​

Gurbani itself affirms the role of Vedas.  They do not lead to liberation.  They TELL of how to obtain liberation.  So worldly-minded scholars who think only the study will save them are self-deceived.  Hypocritical and evil-minded religious pretenders are also self-deceived.  But Guruji says in many places good things also about Vedas.  Gurbani even says Gurbani contains the sound current of the Naad, Primal Shabad, and the Vedas.  So how can we continue with the deception that Vedas are something evil?


ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.
~SGGS Ji p. 919​

All Gurbani is saying, repeatedly in many places, is don't be deceived by the form of religion and missing the power and reality of it.




> Well Bhain ji, I am not supporter of any group, what so ever, I find Gurbani being abused by you, you don’t feel about that, only that worries you is Sanatna or Hindus; you don’t even like to blame fanatic Hindus who play same dirty game as Fanatic Sikhs do. I blame both and you just pass by it because that is not your concern only. You questions MOD’s fairness, why don’t you see what you are doing? Using Bhai Gurdas at your convenient but when he promotes truth about Castes as per Guru ji, you still prefer to stick to one word” Sodhi” You should also read that part of History where Guru ji received anger from Hindu kings just because he was promoting low class equally. Digging out none sense that Gurus were married in high class but ignoring all that goes against Caste in Gurbani and in Bhai Gurdas ji’s writings. *Is it fairness, if we are not fair what right we have to ask for fairness? *



How am I not fair veer ji?  In all these threads people are making derogatory comments about sanatana Dharma as being ONLY defined by corruption, obscenity, indecency, deliberate distortion and denial of the actual teachings, accusing me of having idiotic opinions and "abusing Gurbani" merely to cite it, etc.  I do not disrespect the opposing viewpoint this way.  So why am I unfair simply not to agree with your interpretation?  Because I don't agree with your viewpoint it's justifiable to abuse and discriminate against mine?  I think you need to re-evaluate your moral stance, if this is what you're saying.  Because any position which justifies unfairness and discrimination against a particular viewpoint is propagandistic and unspiritual.  I point out the flaws and extremism within Sikhism precisely because these attitudes of negativity and hostility are threatening to destroy what is actually beautiful about Sikhi, the religion of tolerance and brotherhood.  It's like a mirror, take a good look, because Sikh communities aren't exempt from the same corruptions and indecencies they accuse as being the very definition of Hindu religion.  Sikhs need to be honest and fair about Hindu religion, and about the Vedantic relationship to teachings found in Gurbani.  There is NO EXCUSE for Sikhs to have such a juvenile attitude of hostility and abusiveness to Hinduism.  It's unjust, and it's untrue.  Be a spiritual person and look at the good things instead of complaining so much about ONLY the bad.  If the rest of the world community ONLY see's the Sikhs as the BAD things, you get upset, and feel offended.  This is the mirror.  STOP PAINTING HINDU DHARAM AS ONLY THE WORST AND MOST EXAGGERATED EVILS!  I ask you in the name of justice.  Evaluate the religion by the teachings themselves, not by the foolish people who become corrupted.  This is no way to have a discussion by attacking only the worst qualities in Hindus.  You don't defend Sikhi this way, you destroy it.

Is this unfair?  You don't think this is fair?  There has been nothing on this forum but unmitigated propaganda against Hindu religion, even to exaggerated and deliberate distortions of it's teachings in order to promote a negative attitude toward it. SO why, if I'm trying to break through barriers of hostility and rejection to even fair analysis of Vedantic thought in Gurbani, and how historically it has been alienated from Sikhism would it prove anything to keep bashing Hinduism?  The balance and fairness should be, can we see the Hindus and Sikhs as EQUALS?  Can we see that Sikhs have bad and Hindus have good?  That's the balance, because the unrelenting picture on the forum at this time is unqualified EVIL of Hindu religion, and unquestioned assumption of RIGHTEOUSNESS in Sikhism.

So let's be honest with the truth.  Hindu religion is no more corrupted and evil than Sikh Gurdwaras who rob money from the sangat.  If we're going to judge on the basis of "DISGUSTING CORRUPTIONS, INDECENCY, OBSCENITY"  It's a door that swings BOTH WAYS.  Discriminate against me if you wish.  But at least be honest about the fact that censoring my opinions is discrimination.




> You called Guru Nanak Vashnava, *I shall prove even Kabir ji didn’t follow that Vashnava* as per his writings, history is totally vague about him but some just trying to label him with and that even by ignoring his writings( as you did showing no respect what Guru Nanak says about his own enlightenment).


Does it occur to you that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in a Hindu family?  Does it occur to you that North India at time of Guru Nanak was undergoing a huge Vaishnava reform movement?  Does it occur to you that mere mention of Das Avataaras is Vaishnavism?  Because Vaishnavism is the only Hindu school that teaches God is One Supreme and manifested in Das Avataaras.  It's not a disrespect to point out the obvious.

Was Guruji enlightened?  Without doubt.  But simply to be enlightened doesn't mean every teaching was His own and not rooted in ancient truths.  It doesn't speak against His enlightenment to accept His own acknowledgment that Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas.

Kabir japped Raam, Raam.  It is the Vaishnava school which japs Raam, Raam.  His teacher was Ramanand, who was also a Vaishnava.  The Kabir Panthis of today consider Kabir a Vaishnava.  So what is the point veer ji?

Here is a link where scholars call Ramanandis the largest and most important Vaishnav monastic Order in North India.
Reinventing Ramanand: Caste and History in Gangetic India



> Ramanandis
> 
> The followers of Ramananda are the Ramanandis. They are well-known in upper Hindusthan. They are a branch of the Ramanuja sect. They offer their worship to Lord Rama, Sita, Lakshmana and Hanuman. Ramananda was a disciple of Ramanuja. He flourished at Varanasi about the beginning of the fourteenth century. His followers are numerous in the Ganga valley of India. Their favourite work is the ‘Bhakti-Mala’. Their sectarian marks are like those of the Ramanujas. The Vairagis are the ascetics among the Ramanandis.  Vaishnavism: Devotion to Vishnu - ReligionFacts





> This Vaishnava denomination has played an important role in shaping the social and spiritual climate of the populous Ganges valley. The Ramanandi movement owes its origin to the saint Ramananda, who lived in Varanasi in the 14th century, and influenced such popular Indian saints like Tulsidas and Kabir among others. 1It is one of the largest and most egalitarian Hindu sects around the Gangetic plains, and its ascetic wing constitutes the largest Vaishnava monastic order and may possibly be the largest monastic order in all of India. [2]  Ramanandi sect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> *Please wait I shall show you how he looks at all those avataras you advocate for Sikhs to follow.*


First, I don't advocate for Sikhs to follow anybody.  Don't propagandistically put words in my mouth and accuse me of something like this.  I am analyzing the Gurbani and analyzing the history, and I find it fascinating that there exists this whole other hidden history within Sikhism which is suppressed by the mainstream Sikh institutions.  If we are Sikhs of Guru, then Gurmat is whatever Guru's words are.  So how by looking at Guru's words, does this make me an advocate for Sikhs to follow something else?  Explain this entire pauri praising the Das Avataaras as Supreme Lord, and calling the God Jagganath Gopal, and Parabrahm, while saying God has 4 arms, carries conch, chakr, mace, which is obvious description of Vishnu.  Worship of Vishnu and Vishnu avataars as sargun saroop of the Supreme One All-pervading God = Vaishnavism.  Thank you veer ji.


ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
maaroo mehalaa 5 ||
Maaroo, Fifth Mehl: 5

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ 
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ 
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.  

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ 
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ 
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.  

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ 
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons. 

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ 
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. 

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ 
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||  

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ 
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. 

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ 
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ 
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| 

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ 
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ 
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ 
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.  

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ 
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor. 

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ 
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ 
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ 
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥ 
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7|| 

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ 
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ 
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| 

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ 
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.  

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
dhhaar khael *chathurabhuj* kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.  

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ 
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||  

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ 
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ 
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. 

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ 
*sankh chakr gadhaa* hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ 
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ 
*jagannaathh gopaal* mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​





Vishnu, the 4 armed Lord with chakr, conch, mace, and lotus.  The Das Avataars emanate from Vishnu.


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

First, about the issue of "trade" in Gurbani. By your phrase: "_If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism.” _Are you unable to see the prejudice in this viewpoint? Are you really unable to see that the entire issue has been one of addressing the incredible and unsupportable hostility Sikhs have for Hinduism based on radical misinterpretations of Gurbani like these?
*ALL Gurbani you are quoting is not talking about the trade I wrote about. You punched a word” Vapaar” and start copying and pasting it even without understanding what is said in there,  I posted many, did you care. No, Because you are repeating same things which were well explained long time ago. Doesn’t it occur you that you are ignoring Gurbani just to support Hinduism and their scriptures *
ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਜਿਨ ਵਖਰੁ ਲਦਿਅੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ 
dhhan dhhan vanaj vaapaareeaa jin vakhar ladhiarraa har raas ||
Blessed, blessed is the trade of those traders who have loaded the merchandise of the Wealth of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 82
*Above is your quote, does it occur you that it is not like  that portion of  Veda where exploitation of Brahamin is in high gear, it is said” if you give this to Brahamin, you will get this, if you do this, your ancestors will get this., read  Shadong Upnished, lesson 6, Khand 9 and 15. also Manu smiriti Slok 123, 125 Adhiaae10. You will see how humanity is degraded*
  PLEASE stop trying to judge the demerits of Hinduism as if this were it's only definition.
*Who is judging, I am hinting at the truth to be find in those scriptures you repeatedly applaud and when asked to quote from those lessons, pages where degrading things are written, you start advising me not to judge their merits. Merits and demerits must be discussed, it is necessary to say all are really that good as you beat drum about them so loudly*!
  Does it occur to you that Gurbani doesn't speak in a derogatory way about "trade" in the way you infer? For example, lets look at the Gurbani:

  So we cannot judge as wholly negative, Hinduism and Hindu scriptures and Hindu people, without first examining the intentions of _OUR_ own hearts

  . Are we to blindly imply that this refers to every brahmin? Is every brahmin being described by this description?
*Do we, remember we have to use the Word Brahamin, as Kabir ji did where he asks”  oh Brahamin ! have you come any special way” Does he mean all Brahmins, please don’t split hair.*

  Hardly anyone... is a true servant... a true disciple... these are the fake traders. And it isn't something Hindu's alone have a problem with, (for some reason Sikhs keep condemning Hindu religion as fake), but it is a problem of the whole world. Everyone, including Sikhs has to confront the ways in which our own spirituality is compromised. We can't keep "blaming brahmins," or "blaming Hindus," or "blaming Vedas." It's an issue of authentic spirituality versus inauthentic. It is NOT "us" against "them."
*Very true but why don’t you think when you start accusing one side only, when they are attacked you show this fairness otherwise you keep grilling one portion of Sikhs, never realize all are not like those ones you target.*


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

Gurbani itself affirms the role of Vedas. They do not lead to liberation. They TELL of how to obtain liberation. So worldly-minded scholars who think only the study will save them are self-deceived. Hypocritical and evil-minded religious pretenders will also be deceived. But Guruji says in many places good things also about Vedas. Gurbani even says Gurbani contains the sound current of the Naad, Primal Shabad, and the Vedas. So how can we continue with the deception that Vedas are something evil?
ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.
~SGGS Ji p. 919

*Yes, but Guru ji also says*
  sਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਪੁੰਨ ਪਾਪ ਬੀਚਾਰਦੇ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਤਿਹੀ ਗੁਣੀ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਸੁਤਾ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੇ ਜਨ ਜਾਗੇ ਜਿਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੋ ਤਤੁ ਪਾਏ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ਜਾਗਤ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥੨੭॥ 
The Simritis and Shastras discriminate between good and evil, but know not the essence of the Real Thing. Without the Guru, they know not the essence of the Reality, know not the essence of the Reality. The world is asleep in three modes and doubt, and in slumber its night(life) passes away. By Guru's grace, only those mortals keep awake, in whose mind the Lord abides and who utter the Nectar-word. Says Nanak, he alone obtains quintessence, who ever remains merged in the Lord's love and passes his life-night awake. 

[/FONT]ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ 
[/FONT]    Barahmā vėḏ paṛai vāḏ vakẖāṇai. 
Brahma studied the Vedas, but these lead only to debates and disputes. 
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਆਪੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ 
Anṯar ṯāmas āp na pacẖẖāṇai. 
He is filled with darkness; he does not understand himself. 
ਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥੧॥ 
Ŧā parabẖ pā*ė gur sabaḏ vakẖāṇai. ||1|| 
And yet, if he chants the Word of the Guru's Shabad, he finds God. ||1||
  AND
ਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥ 
Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors. With their tongue they ever utter the Lord God's Name, but they realise not in the least what they say. They, whose mind is lured by mammon, continue reciting fluently and mechanically. Says Nanak, without the True Guru all other gospel is false. 
  How am I not fair veer ji? In all these threads people are making derogatory comments about corruption, obscenity, indecency, distortion, idiotic opinions, etc. I do not do this. So why am I unfair simply not to agree with your viewpoint? Because I do not agree with your viewpoint it is some justification to abuse my opinions? I think you need to re-evaluate your moral stance, if this is what your saying. Because such a position which justifies unfairness and discrimination against a particular viewpoint is propagandistic and unspiritual. I point out the flaws and extremism within Sikhism precisely because of the attitudes of negativity and hoistility constantly be voiced against a sanatan viewpoint. It's like a mirror, take a good look, because Sikh communities aren't exempt from the corruptions and indecencies they accuse as being the very definition of Hindu religion.

*How you can be fair Bhain ji when openly you discredit History I quoted, Bhai Gurdaas ji’s comment specially on Caste system quoted, , Did you care? No, still you don’t care. 99 times I quoted Guru Vaak from Mehla 1 and Mehla 2 where they say [/FONT]* *that Vedas teach* *Vapaar, give this here get that there but Guru shabad gives you knowledge about HIM.  Did you accept Guru ji’s views? No. What you see in Gurbani Is Hinduism,  regarding caste system even if views of Guru ji were quoted to counter your false accusation on Guru ji that they supported Caste system, what did you do? you kept beating your drum in favor of a lie, is it fairness?  What is the use of giving quotes to you because you only believe what you want to", for that if you have to disregard Guru, Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas ji, happily you do, is it fair? Why I have to tell you that it is not my views that Veda teaches Trade but Guru ji says so, reason is obvious.*


 [/FONT]


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

Is this unfair? You don't think this is fair? There has been nothing on this forum but unmitigated propaganda against Hindu religion
*See here that is what you see, for rest you close your eyes. You are ready to criticize Muslims, Sikhs but never try to say in balance that fanatic Hindus play the same dirty game, is it fairness? Only do you have Hindu Friends? We don’t have. Only you are on this forum to defend Hindus and we criticize them. Not a single time I said a word against any Hindu though I have to hear demeaning comments by them simply because of my faith all are not the same.  Fair person doesn’t ignore own Guru’s declaration, statement of those who lived with Gurus and wrote the facts. Well you are not here to find fact; this is what I have sensed. You expect fairness from all others but there is no fairness you can give to others. You called Guru Nanak Vashanava, You said that Guru himself promoted caste system, how I can swallow such lies? Where is your fairness? Isnt your moral duty to refrain from making statements which can be inflaming? You don’t care, under the name of honesty, you  judge Gurus. Being a Sikh, do you think you have a license to judge them based on your a little study of Gurbani It is easy to blame others Bhain ji, first one need to see what is being said agaibst the Guru they adore to death. No wonder you post pictures of Hindu devtas when you get chance, is it required by any standard of debate? Not at all, but that is very important. Did you see them? Are these real picture of those you talk about. Do we need these pictures?*

  So let's be honest with the truth. Hindu religion is no more corrupted and evil than Sikh Gurdwaras who rob money from the sangat

*You see, that is the cause of your anger. May I ask you? Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience with some pseudo believers*?
  Does it occur to you that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in a Hindu family?
*So that is your measure, one who born into Hindu family, drag him back to Hinduism.Leave him alone, first learn what he did.  PLEASE if cannot respect him refrain from judging him !*


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

Fifth Nanak contemplating on NIRGUNA addresses all others avtaras gods or demi gods as millions, it means some are just stuck with some  incarnations of Vishnu, Brahme, Shiva but HE created millions like those guys,” HE is the one I contemplate not any of those millions” that is what Guru says.. Mention of these avtaras doesn’t believe Sikhs should value them as guiding forces because such were created in millions by HIM, Sikhs aim is to be in love with HIM who creates so well known in millions. Can any one call Guru Vashnava who believes in Tri murthy, Krishna etc? Guru ji clearly says, just take deep breath, those kind of entities are created by Him in millions. Here these Vashnavas are stuck with Tri murthy concept. Guru, Gurmukh they go above all this. It should be blasphemy if any one calls Guru Nanak Santni or Vashnava as I feel. It is a total insult on a different approach of Guru ji and Bhagatas than others who are stuck in a few, like twelve avatars or Trimurthy, Guru Granth Sahib Ji opens eyes and take the follower not to waste time on those limited but a part of His creation, He is beyond all that. In the following Shabad, Sahib states clearly, his faith is only in Him, His infinity beyond accounting, His affairs that goes to amazement. He is just inexpressible( Also Japji Sahib-!7 to 26 Pouri)  Those who in other scriptures try to express as if they knew, Guru Nanak says in Japji that they would definitely be dishonored by Him because how any one could express Him. These guys are just jumping around ten or twelve, but Guru ji says( not Singh Sabha) that HE created in millions of such enteritis. In RAHAAO Vaak, Guru ji call Him GOWIND, look at it, they drag this word to Krishna about whom Guru ji says right in this Shabad” one of millions.
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਧ੍ਰਮਸਾਲ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਜਣ ਲਾਏ ॥੧॥ 
Bhairo 5th Guru. He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu. He who has millions of solar systems as places to practise virtue. He created and destroyed millions of Shivas. He has employed myriads of Brahmas to create the universes. 
*NOTE where is that one Indra, one Shiva, one Vishnu and others? You see, there are millions like them, stress of this has a meaning.*
ਐਸੋ ਧਣੀ ਗੁਵਿੰਦੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

Such is my Master Lord, O man. He has good many virtues. I can narrate them not. Pause. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸੇਵਕਾਇ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਿਹਜਾਇ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਜਨਾ ਤੇਰੈ ਅੰਗਿ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਭਗਤ ਬਸਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ॥੨॥ 
Such is the Lord, millions of Lakhshmis are his maids, and myriads of beings are whose couches. Millions of universes are in Thy Being, O Lord. Myriads of devotees abide with the Lord. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਠਾਢੇ ਹੈ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੩॥ 
Millions of Lords of throne and crown make obeisance unto Him. Million of Indras stand at His door. Such is He, whose vision are millions of paradises. Myriads are the Lord's Names, whose worth can be appraised not. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਰੀਅਤ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਖਾਰੇ ਚਲਿਤ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਦੇਵੈ ਆਧਾਰ ॥੪॥ 
Such is He, at whose door millions of conches are sounded. Millions are His arenas and wondrous plays. He has myriads of obedient Laksmis and Shivas. To millions of beings, the Lord gives sustenance. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਮਝਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਤ ਨਾਮ ਚਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੫॥ 
Millions of pilgrim stations are in whose feet. Millions utter the immaculate and beauteous Name of the Lord. Millions of worshippers worship the Lord. Million are His expanses. There is not any other save Him. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੰਸ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਰਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਸ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਓਪਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਣੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੬॥ 

Whose pure praise is sung by millions of swan-souls. Myriads of whose praises are hymned by the sons of Brahma. Myriads of destructions and creations, the Lord affects in an instant. Millions are Thine virtues, which can be counted not, O Lord. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਥਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਧਰਤ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਤਪ ਹੀ ਕਰਤੇ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮੁਨੀਸਰ ਨਿ+ਮ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤੇ ॥੭॥ 
Millions of theologians expound gnosis. Millions of contemplators contemplate Him. Millions of penitents just practise penitence. Millions of silent sages abides in silence. 
ਅਵਿਗਤ ਨਾਥੁ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਵਾਸਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਓ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ ॥੮॥੨॥੫॥ 
The Imperishable and Incomprehensible Lord Master, the Inner-knower, is fully filling all the hearts. Wheresoever I see, I see Thy abode, O Lord. Nanak, the slave, the Guru has illumined. 
* I am totally against separate state; I feel it is against Sikhism but why people of minority faiths are not happy with policies of Indian Govt. since 1947?Don’t blame on minorities, bad elements are every where but a majority should show exemplary behavior. Why they are always scared in every way? Muslims who didn’t leave India, why still they are looked at as” Pakistanis”? As they say” you cannot clap with one hand” harmony in **India** cannot come if Sikhs or Muslims or Christians are silenced. I believe dirty games are being played by fanatics of Hindus more than any others. Why to blame **Pakistan**, don’t we see how politician inflame religious sentiments during every election.  What the majority of the voters have done about this in **India**? *


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

*Now look at Kabir ji’s love as Gurmukh not Vashnava. When 12 avtaras are addressed as one of millions, that means some thing. It totally shows that who cares about those 12, He created millions like them. How dare any one label Kabir’s to any sect. History is vague and contradictory, only proof we have about Kabir ji is his Bani we recite from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Gurmukh has no sect, no label, Gurmukh is sold to Nirguna, Sarguna is perishable,  one can love Him only if His perishable part is understood in His Ordinance. If He is in every body it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do any thing if we witness evil act. Guru panth is complete from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Our only scripture is Guru Granth Sahib ji, rest are not for us. So say Guru ji and Kabir ji. The following Shabad says all about him and his faith.*
ਭੈਰਉ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ਘਰੁ ੨ 
Bhairo Kabir Ji Ashtpadis. 
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
  There is but One God. By the True Guru's grace, He is obtained.  

ਅਗਮ ਦ੍ਰੁਗਮ ਗੜਿ ਰਚਿਓ ਬਾਸ ॥ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਬਿਜੁਲੀ ਚਮਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਪਉੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥੧॥ 
The Lord constructed an unparalleled and unreachable fortress for His residence, wherein shine His light. The lightning flashes and bliss reigns in the place, where abides my young Lord Master. 
ਇਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਜਰਾ ਮਰਨੁ ਛੂਟੈ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
If this soul is attuned to the Lord's Name, man is released from old age and death and his doubt flees away. Pause. 
ਅਬਰਨ ਬਰਨ ਸਿਉ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੀਤ ॥ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਹੋਤ ਝੁਨਕਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਪਉੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੨॥ 
He, whose mind loves to know the low caste and high caste, chants the eulogies and songs of ego. The sound of the unstruck melody resounds at the place, Where the Reverend Lord, the world-Cherisher abides. 
ਖੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਤੀਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਖੰਡਾ ॥ ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਅਭ ਅੰਤ ॥ ਪਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਧਰਨੀਧਰ ਮੰਤ ॥੩॥ 
He the Lord creates the continents, worlds and universes, and destroys the three worlds, three gods and the three qualities. That inaccessible and Inapprehensible Lord abides within the mind. No one can find the limit and the secret of the Sustainer of the earth. 
ਕਦਲੀ ਪੁਹਪ ਧੂਪ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਰਜ ਪੰਕਜ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਓ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ ਦੁਆਦਸ ਦਲ ਅਭ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੰਤ ॥ ਜਹ ਪਉੜੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਮਲਾ ਕੰਤ ॥੪॥ 
The Lord shines in the plantain, flower and the sun-shine. He has taken an abode in the pollen of the lotus. The Lord's spell is within the twelve petals of the heart, in which place reposes the Sire spouse of Lakshmi. 
ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਗੋ ਕਾਸੁ ॥ ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਊਹਾਂ ਸੂਰਜ ਨਾਹੀ ਚੰਦ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਅਨੰਦ ॥੫॥ 
The Lord, who sky-like pervades the lower, upper and middle regions; He sheds light in the silent realm of the Tenth gate. The sun and the moon are not there, but the Primal and Immaculate Lord makes merry there. 
ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਿ ਪਿੰਡਿ ਸੋ ਜਾਨੁ ॥ ਮਾਨ ਸਰੋਵਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ ਸੋਹੰ ਸੋ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਹੈ ਜਾਪ ॥ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਲਿਪਤ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਪੁੰਨ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਪ ॥੬॥ 
Deem thou Him in the universe and Him in the body too. Bathe thou in the Lord's 'Mansarovar'. Contemplate thou Him, whose pass-word is "He is me". Such is the Lord, whom no filth of merits and demerits attaches. 
ਅਬਰਨ ਬਰਨ ਘਾਮ ਨਹੀ ਛਾਮ ॥ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਮ ॥ ਟਾਰੀ ਨ ਟਰੈ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਹਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੭॥ 
The Lord whom low caste, high caste, sun-shine and shade touch not, is found in the Guru's asylum and no where else. The attention that is fixed on the Lord is diverted not by diverting and man is released from transmigration, and he easily remains merged in the Lord. 
ਮਨ ਮਧੇ ਜਾਨੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਆਪੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਤਰੈ ॥੮॥੧॥ 
If any one realises the Lord in his mind, he is fulfilled. Whatever he utters that happens spontaneously. Whosoever firmly fixes the Lord's Light and the Name within his mind; says Kabir, that mortal swims across the world-ocean. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਰ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਰੁ ਕਬਿਲਾਸ ॥ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਰੈ ॥੧॥ 
Such is my Lord, for whom millions of suns shine, and who has millions of Shivas and Kailashes, where Shiva abides. Such is He, whose feet millions of goddesses shampoo, and for whom millions of Brahmas utter the Vedas. 
ਜਉ ਜਾਚਉ ਤਉ ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
When I beg, then beg I only the Lord's Name. I have nothing to do with any other God. Pause. 

ਕੋਟਿ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਰਾਕ ॥ ਸੁਰ ਤੇਤੀਸਉ ਜੇਵਹਿ ਪਾਕ ॥ ਨਵ ਗ੍ਰਹ ਕੋਟਿ ਠਾਢੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਹਾਰ ॥੨॥ 
Myriads of moons sparkle in the Lord's will. Thirty-three hundred thousands gods partake of His food. The myriads of the groups of nine stars stand at His door. Millions of Righteous Judges are His gate-keepers. 
ਪਵਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਚਉਬਾਰੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ॥ ਬਾਸਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੇਜ ਬਿਸਥਰਹਿ ॥ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪਾਨੀਹਾਰ ॥ ਰੋਮਾਵਲਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਭਾਰ ॥੩॥ 
Millions of winds blow round Him in four directions. Millions of serpents spread His bedding. Millions of oceans are whose water-carriers. The eighteen million loads of vegetation are His hair. 
ਕੋਟਿ ਕਮੇਰ ਭਰਹਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਲਖਿਮੀ ਕਰੈ ਸੀਗਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਬਹੁ ਹਿਰਹਿ ॥ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹਿ ॥੪॥ 
Millions of treasures fill his treasures. Millions of Lakshmis decorate themselves to please Him. Many Millions of sins and virtues look up to Him. Millions of Indras perform whose service. 
ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਹਾਰ ॥ ਨਗਰੀ ਨਗਰੀ ਖਿਅਤ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਲਟ ਛੂਟੀ ਵਰਤੈ ਬਿਕਰਾਲ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਲਾ ਖੇਲੈ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੫॥ 
Fifty six millions are whose clouds. In very town is His infinite celebrity. With its loose tresses, the dreadful death works before Him. In millions of ways the Lord plays, 
ਕੋਟਿ ਜਗ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਜੈਕਾਰ ॥ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਕੋਟਿ ਸਭੈ ਗੁਨ ਕਹੈ ॥ ਤਊ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਲਹੈ ॥੬॥ 
There are millions of gratuitous feasts in His court, and millions of celestial singers hail Him. Myriads of sciences all utter His praise. Even then they can find not the end of the Supreme Lord. 

ਬਾਵਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰੋਮਾਵਲੀ ॥ ਰਾਵਨ ਸੈਨਾ ਜਹ ਤੇ ਛਲੀ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਹੁ ਕਹਤ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ ਦੁਰਜੋਧਨ ਕਾ ਮਥਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੭॥ 
In His one hair are millions of Bawan's incarnations, Rama who outmaneuvered Rawan's army, thousand millions of Puranas, which greatly extol Him, and Krishna, who humbled the pride of Duryodhan. 
*NOTE* *Here first Kabir ji says that you are talking about only 12 carnations, HE created millions like them, and remind the follower about whom he is talking about, he gives stories, so they are not one or twelve but millions like them, that reduces the status of one Rama or one Krishna. When we use this saying” I have seen million like you” it means it is not you  who think so highly of yourself.... Kabir ji further clears in next Vaakas who he believes in*
ਕੰਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਧਰਹਿ ॥ ਅੰਤਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਹਰਹਿ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਨ ॥ ਦੇਹਿ ਅਭੈ ਪਦੁ ਮਾਂਗਉ ਦਾਨ ॥੮॥੨॥੧੮॥੨੦॥ 
Millions of cupid can compete with Him not. He steals away the man's inmost heart. Says Kabir, hear Thou my supplication, O God, the Lord of the world. I ask this boon of Thee, bless Thou me with the fearless dignity. 
*When Kabir ji says that the avataras like Rama and **Krishna** were one of millions HE created, doesn’t that say they are not only ten or twelve, as Sanatna or Vashnava people claim, but in millions. After saying all that, who is worth worshiping as per Kabir ji?  Are those **ten twelve** like millions or HIM who created all those in millions. Any one can see there is no special treatment to these avataras. Same way Guru ji treats them in the above shabad. Doesn’t it say clearly Sikhism is not about avtarvad.  Rejection is clear, only those will understand who study Guru Granth Sahib in totality, the rest will keep guessing and guessing is just like dreaming.*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 5, 2008)

> ALL Gurbani you are quoting is not talking about the trade I wrote about. You punched a word” Vapaar” and start copying and pasting it even without understanding what is said in there, I posted many, did you care. No, Because you are repeating same things which were well explained long time ago. Doesn’t it occur you that you are ignoring Gurbani just to support Hinduism and their scriptures


Does it occur to you that we are on polar opposite sides of an opinion and as such, I don't accept your interpretation as correct, while you don't accept my interpretation as correct.  But when I present sanatana views, somehow you feel justified in abusing it.  As you claim:

_Above is your quote, does it occur you that it is not like that portion of Veda where exploitation of Brahamin is in high gear, it is said” if you give this to Brahamin, you will get this, if you do this, your ancestors will get this., read Shadong Upnished, lesson 6, Khand 9 and 15. also Manu smiriti Slok 123, 125 Adhiaae10. You will see how humanity is degraded_
If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that Manu Smriti isn't accepted by all schools of Hinduism.  Neither are Shiva Sutras.  So talking about something you find personally obnoxious in those scriptures says nothing about sanatana Dharma as a whole.  I could actuallly talk in great detail about human sacrifices and some very esoteric and complex things... but I can barely discuss common Vaishnav elements in Gurbani teachings without incredible opposition.  Suffice to say, sanatana Dharma is very ancient and very broad, and deals in some elements with forces of a more negative nature.  But this is not to say Sanatana Dharma as a religious philosophy is negative.  It's completely positive.  But if you want to look at tantric practices and tantrang mantrang and jado tuna, then yes, you will be looking at some strange things.

I find it astounding that your entire focus is on negativity, even when I quoted dozens of tuuks of Gurbani which are positive and speak of the praise of God, of the Naam which is praised in Hindu scriptures.  So my point was to counterbalance this hateful negativistic opinion which keeps condemning Hindu spirituality as something evil, worthless and obscene and "disgusting."  Even on these forums is an unmoderated post where someone called Nirmala Devi a Bi----, because he resented her sanatan Sikhism.  So this huge hostility and one-sided discrimination is simply unacceptable, and the reason for my posting on these issues.  Let's be fair.  You get angry because I point out the Vaishnavism which I honestly perceive in Gurbani, and count it a matter of profound disrespect and insult... not because of what was said, but because of the tremendous hatred for Hinduism pervasive in Sikh communities.  Yet, comments that claim and beat the drums loudly that ALL Hindu spirituality is based on scriptures which are worthless, obscene, evil and degrading to humanity, and disgusting... you don't see that as injustice?  You don't see that as imbalance?  You don't see that as unfairness?  That is really pathetic.  And then you conclude I have no right to ask for fairness because I degrade Sikhi by equating Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message with Vaishnavism, which I also perceive as a beautiful spiritual message.  So all you are saying is, you want the right to abuse the sanatan message.

You know, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you.  Say whatever you want.  It is my opinion that when Gurbani says Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas, that means the wisdom of the Vedas has been incorporated into Gurubani.  And I respect that Guruji's message includes sanatan elements simply from that basis, without discrimination which condemns sanatana Dharma.  When I read the Gurbani that you cite, including vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, I don't ignore it at all.  I simply don't agree with your opinion about what it says.  I do agree that according to spiritual teachings and ultimate spiritual nature, there is no caste discrimination.  But realistically, socially, Sikhs are just as caste conscious as Hindus.  So why make the artificial divide that Sikhism rejects the caste system, and then fail to explain why there is so much caste discrimination in Sikhism?

And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the history of Sikhism, casteism was never NOT a part of it.  Even when the Jatts converted en masse under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Jatts NEVER lost their caste identity or kinship ties.  Even the Sikh Misls were identified and known by caste.  Even the Gurus themselves were identified and known by caste.  So, in analyzing WHY there is this HUGE discrepancy between assertions which claim Guru REJECTED the caste system, and why the caste system is so historically pervasive in Sikhism, it isn't just BAD Sikhs, but among the most influential, Generals, and even Maharaja Ranjit Singh, every Rajput and Khatri, Saini and Jatt knows his caste history.  And it is my interpretation that Gurbani DID NOT reject caste system outright, acknowledging that caste varna system is the Will of the God.  HOWEVER, clearly asserting spiritual equality and brotherhood in the teachings, where a low caste who is a Gurmukh, is equal to a brahmin, and a brahmin who is corrupted is equal to a Shudra.

I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one.  This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas which also admitted all castes to their ranks.  But outside the battlefield, caste system was still continued.  I don't even say this is right or wrong.  I am looking at the history, looking at the Gurbani.  This issue cannot be answered simplistically with one or two tuuks and vaars.  It's a complex issue veer ji.  And I did not start the caste system or praise injustices, or encourage Sikhs to become part of this and that.  Be fair to the debate.  I did not create this history, but this history DOES EXIST.  And all the idealism fails to explain WHY, at the highest and most influential levels of Sikh society does caste system persist.  WHY, extending beyond the rularship of Maharaja Ranjit Singh does caste system exist during the "supposedly Tat Khalsa" Sikh Misl period?  And WHY does EVERY written historical record of Sikhs INCLUDE identification by caste?

No one has yet answered WHY Gurbani itself identifies Guru Ramdas Ji by caste surname.  Simply quoting a vaar of Bhai Gurdas does not remove this tuuk from Gurbani, and it has yet to be adequately explained veer ji.  I don't say you know the answer.  Even I don't know the answer.  But the weight of the historical evidence of keeping caste identification throughout Sikh history is telling, very telling.  It cannot be ignored.



> Who is judging, I am hinting at the truth to be find in those scriptures you repeatedly applaud and when asked to quote from those lessons, pages where degrading things are written, you start advising me not to judge their merits. Merits and demerits must be discussed, it is necessary to say all are really that good as you beat drum about them so loudly!


Not only you, but several who have commented do so in most disagreeable and abusive terms to describe Hindu religion and corruption of Hindu people.  So here you are saying you have the right to beat the drum loudly to expose the faults, yet you cry about any talk regarding Sikh injustice, Sikh corruption, Sikh hypocrisy, as hurting the sentiments of Sikhs and disrespecting Sikhs.

The only point, ALL human beings are corrupted.  Being a Hindu is not an automatic designation of the WORST of Hinduism, any more than being a Sikh is the GREATEST most SPIRITUAL attainment.  Let's be reasonable.  You want to beat the drums loudly, and here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras.  To what purpose?  Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago.

You know veer ji, ancient Hebrews also had animal sacrifice.  And this became interpreted within Christianity as special puja of the human sacrifice of Jesus.  Yet, whenever I have debated with Christians, I do not go on about how anciently the Jewish scriptures say sacrifice animals.  WHY?  Because it's not relevant to today's practice of Christianity.

Gurbani says:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ 
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350​


ਆਪੇ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੇਦੁ ॥ 
aapae saasath aapae baedh ||
He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.

ਆਪੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦੁ ॥ 
aapae ghatt ghatt jaanai bhaedh ||
He knows the secrets of each and every heart. 

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਵਥੁ ॥ 
joth saroop jaa kee sabh vathh ||
He is the Embodiment of Light; all beings belong to Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 1150​


ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਰਾਗਂ​*ੀ ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਵੇਦਂ​*ੀ ॥ 
jooth n raaganaee jooth n vaedhanaee ||
Impurity does not come from music; impurity does not come from the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1240​


ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ 
aapae vaedh puraan sabh saasath aap kathhai aap bheejai ||
He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥ 
aapae hee behi poojae karathaa aap parapanch kareejai ||
He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world.

ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥ 
aap paravirath aap niravirathee aapae akathh kathheejai ||
He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable.

ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥ 
aapae punn sabh aap karaaeae aap alipath varatheejai ||
He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached.
~SGGS Ji p. 551​

So how can you persist in saying:



> "As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, see how they tell disgusting tales.  Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with contaminated one."





> Who is judging, I am hinting at the truth to be find in those scriptures you repeatedly applaud and when asked to quote from those lessons, pages where degrading things are written, you start advising me not to judge their merits. Merits and demerits must be discussed, it is necessary to say all are really that good as you beat drum about them so loudly!



You are condemning what Gurbani says the God Himself has brought into being.  To what purpose?  I say the purpose is to demonize Hindu religion, to degrade and humiliate Hindu teachings by gross distortion and abuse, and propagandistically fuel the hatreds dividing the Sikh-Hindu communities which have already led to so much bloodshed.

Veer ji, this cannot be right.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 5, 2008)

> See here that is what you see, for rest you close your eyes. You are ready to criticize Muslims, Sikhs but never try to say in balance that fanatic Hindus play the same dirty game, is it fairness? Only do you have Hindu Friends?


I have publically condemned the attack on Muslim communities in Gujarat by the Bajrang Dal RSS Hindutva for years.  Just check my avatar for old threads and you will yourself find some comments on this very forum.  So don't accuse me of partiality to Hindus.

However, in lieu of the modern problem of fanatical jihadi mentality of violent intolerance of other religions, and the armed terrorist actions praised by political people who distort Q'uranic teaching, I Do speak against militant Islam.  To be honest veer ji, when I see influential Sikhs like Simranjit Singh Mann shouting Pakistan Zindabad!  You know, and I know it is an act of treason against the Indian state.  When we see bombings in India which kill hundreds and arrests of terrorist militants with ties to Pakistan, how can it be ignored?  It is a problem of current events all over the world.  The whole world is getting swallowed up in ideologies of separatism, rejection, militant fanaticism.

Does it bode well to have radical Sikhs being arrested sending hit squads to kill dera chiefs?  Does it?

Why should I praise the ideological intolerance and fundamentalism which is behind these attitudes of hostility to Hinduism and the Indian state among the Sikh Panth?  Will the Sikh community be better off if we tacitly condone by ignoring?  Wrong is wrong.  We should speak against it.  Hatred and separatism is NOT Gurbani's message.  Do I have only Hindu friends?  Veer ji, I am ostracized from my Sikh friends.  At the moment I don't have any friends at all.  I'm not speaking on behalf of some Hindutva organization.  I'm speaking from my conscience.  From my conviction.  Don't falsely accuse like this.  It's not right.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 5, 2008)

> Fair person doesn’t ignore own Guru’s declaration, statement of those who lived with Gurus and wrote the facts. Well you are not here to find fact; this is what I have sensed. You expect fairness from all others but there is no fairness you can give to others. You called Guru Nanak Vashanava, You said that Guru himself promoted caste system, how I can swallow such lies? Where is your fairness? Isnt your moral duty to refrain from making statements which can be inflaming? You don’t care, under the name of honesty, you judge Gurus. Being a Sikh, do you think you have a license to judge them based on your a little study of Gurbani?
> 
> It is easy to blame others Bhain ji, first one need to see what is being said agaibst the Guru they adore to death.


I'm going to quote from an article.



> It is thought that Sanatani views are a new ideology, but there is a long history of Sanatani thinking. A few of Sanatani views can be found even in Sikh books written in 18th century. 'Gur Bilas', 'Bansavalinama' and 'Mahma Prakash' are included in the list of such books. Sanatani views became more acceptable during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule in Punjab for various reasons.
> 
> Sanatanis should not be confused with those people, who show disrespect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib or other Sikh Gurus. In fact, Sanatanis show deep respect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They accept it their Guru. At the same time, they also believe in Vedas and Puranas. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been accepted the fifth Veda.  Sanatan Sikhi - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.



_You called Guru Nanak Vashanava, You said that Guru himself promoted caste system, how I can swallow such lies? Where is your fairness? Isnt your moral duty to refrain from making statements which can be inflaming? _​How can it be inflaming when I perceive it to be true?  You attack my opinion as lies, as idiotic, as so many things in your posts.  Do I attack you this way?  Is this a mature discussion of different opinions?  Why are the sanatan opinions "disgusting" and "insulting?"  Maybe there is something wrong in the mentality of the perceiver.

This forum isn't even giving credibility to the existance of a sanatan Sikh identity, rushing to label it's very existence as "disrespectful of," and somehow threatening to the Sikh commuity.  Yet no mention of the profound and continued disrespect against the sanatan viewpoint.

Look at the history veer ji:



> The original founders of the Singh Sabha movement were Sanatan or 'traditional' Sikhs, believing that the Panth certainly consisted of the followers of the Gurus but regarding it as a part of wider Hindu society... The Sanatan Sikhs, who were identified with the original Singh Sabha founded in Amritsar in I873, were opposed by a much more radical opinion centered on Lahore. The radicals were Sikhs of the Tat Khalsa, the 'True Khalsa'. For the Tat Khalsa it was impossible to be both a Hindu and a Sikh, as those of the Sanatan persuasion maintained...
> 
> During the last two decades of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, these two groups vigorously contended for the interpretation of what it meant to be a Sikh. The Sanatan Sikhs maintained that variety was entirely permissible in the Panth and that the Panth merely marked out the Sikhs as a special group in Hindu society. In reply, the Tat Khalsa vigorously upheld the view that Sikhs emphatically were not Hindus. They also insistently asserted that the Khalsa mode was the one mode that all Sikhs either accepted or else made their ultimate objective. Ultimately victory went to the Tat Khalsa, and since the early years of the twentieth century Sikhs have been progressively learning three things. First, Sikhs are not Hindus. Secondly, Khalsa membership should be the objective of all Sikhs. Thirdly, Khalsa membership requires obedience to the Rahit.   Singh Sabha


How has it come to such a point in Sikhism that mere sharing of the sanatan Sikh views has now become equated with disrespect for the Sikh identity?  And somehow justification for rabid intolerance which deletes and closes posts without notice in the name of preserving some kind of Tat Khalsa anti-sanatan integrity.




> No wonder you post pictures of Hindu devtas when you get chance, is it required by any standard of debate? Not at all, but that is very important. Did you see them? Are these real picture of those you talk about. Do we need these pictures?


Those devtas are being described in Gurbani.  There is ample historical evidence those devtas were included in Sikh Gurdwaras and Harmandir Sahib.  I'm showing that Vishnu is being described in Gurbani, in relation to the pauri praising the Das Avataaras because that is the definition of Vaishnavism.  And that is why I have said Guruji is Vaishnav.  I have not seen anyone correct this opinion as wrong, only ridiculous overreaction of feeling "personally offended" and "insulted" that sanatan Sikhism is expressed, has a history, and even supported by Gurbani.  I don't say you have to agree with this position, but it's crazy how it is suppressed and marginalized and accused of so many hateful things.  When the true hate and intolerance is evident in the suppression and accusations of "disgusting obscenity," and such.  Incredible.  This IS, whether you agree with it or not, a credible part of Sikh history.



> The founders of the first Singh Sabha were predominantly conservative Sikhs, concerned to sustain and protect the society in which they had been nurtured. This was a society which permitted a variety of Sikh identities, different modes of worship (which included the worship of images), an emphasis upon caste and close ties binding Sikhs and Hindus together. They came, as a result, to be termed Sanatan Sikhs the 'traditional' Sikhs.  Singh Sabha






> So let's be honest with the truth. Hindu religion is no more corrupted and evil than Sikh Gurdwaras who rob money from the sangat
> _You see, that is the cause of your anger. May I ask you? Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience with some pseudo believers?_


"Disgusting."  "Worthless."  "Degrading."  "Evil." "Obscene."  "Insulting."  Isn't that what you keep calling Hinduism? 

_ "Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience...?"_ 

You're joking right?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 5, 2008)

> When Kabir ji says that the avataras like Rama and Krishna were one of millions HE created, doesn’t that say they are not only ten or twelve, as Sanatna or Vashnava people claim, but in millions. After saying all that, who is worth worshiping as per Kabir ji? Are those ten twelve like millions or HIM who created all those in millions. Any one can see there is no special treatment to these avataras. Same way Guru ji treats them in the above shabad. Doesn’t it say clearly Sikhism is not about avtarvad. Rejection is clear, only those will understand who study Guru Granth Sahib in totality, the rest will keep guessing and guessing is just like dreaming.


Gurubani and even Vaisnava Puranas claim there are millions of avataars just like there are millions of worlds.  But the das avataaras are special to OUR world.  They have a special relationship to the 4 yugs and to the upholding of Dharma as degeneration progresses through the age.  They also represent, quite on point with evolution, how humanity is progressing through the ages which is leading us to the Satyug at the completion of this age, or a spiritual leap in development.

Gurbani, contrary to your assertions does NOT disregard the Das avataaras as insignificant.  I already posted whole pauri for you to look at to see attitude of Guru to the Das Avataaras was one of reverence for the God manifest in these incarnations.  You don't have to accept this interpretation, but it makes no sense to keep denying there is Gurbani support for the sanatan position, or somehow to think because there are millions, they are somehow relegated to unimportance.

Rejection of avataarvaad is not at all clear when the pauri praises the Das Avataaras as Jagannatha Gopal and Parabrahm, or the 4 armed Lord who carries a chakr, mace and conch shell and calls Him Creator God.  It is the imagining of rejection where there is none, which is the dreaming.



> There are six kinds of incarnations: (1) the purusa-avataras, (2) the lila-avataras, (3) the guna-avataras, (4) the manvantara-avataras, (5) the yuga-avataras, and (6) the saktyavesa-avataras.
> 
> Lord Caitanya explains some of them to Sanatana Gosvami just to give him an idea of how the Lord expands and enjoys. These conclusions are also confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.3.26). There it is said that there is no limit to the incarnations of the Supreme Lord, just as there is no limit to the waves of the ocean...
> 
> The word "dasavatara" or "dasa-avatara" denotes not a category of avataras like yuga-, lila-, manvantara-, or other avataras but the most famous list of ten avataras (in Sanskrit "dasa" = "10"). This list is to be found e.g. in Garuda Purana 1.86.10-11 (or, according to other numbering, 2.30.37). There are other lists as well, like 25 avataras in Bhagavata Purana 1.3 but these ten are the most popular ones.  http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/avatars.htm



~Bhul chak maaf


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

I do agree that according to spiritual teachings and ultimate spiritual nature, there is no caste discrimination. But realistically, socially, Sikhs are just as caste conscious as Hindus. So why make the artificial divide that Sikhism rejects the caste system, and then fail to explain why there is so much caste discrimination in Sikhism?
*Bhain ji, why you question a religion on the basis of pseudo Sikhs? How many including you and I are totally devoted to Gurbani teaching and live those teachings? How many times you felt” I am doing great as per Guru teachings’? Same thing I ask myself. Honest answer wont qualify us to grill others Sikhs*

  If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that Manu Smriti isn't accepted by all schools of Hinduism. Neither are Shiva Sutras. So talking about something you find personally obnoxious in those scriptures says nothing about sanatana Dharma as a whole. I could actuallly talk in great detail about human sacrifices and some very esoteric and complex things...
  I find it astounding that your entire focus is on negativity, even when I quoted dozens of tuuks of Gurbani which are positive and speak of the praise of God, of the Naam which is praised in Hindu scriptures. So my point was to counterbalance this hateful negativistic opinion which keeps condemning Hindu spirituality as something evil, worthless and "disgusting."
*What I quoted are not my translation, so don’t twist, translation most of the time I use is by Manmohan Singh who understands more both languages( English and Punjabi) than Sant Singh Khalsa. I feel, you are trying to prove Sikhism has no religion, it is borrowed from Vashnava( poor guys do not have concept of Ordinance though) and Hinduism( which is a bundle od sects), it is very swear attack. You called Guru Nanak Vashnava but felt negativity in my comments about Sanatan or Vashanva religion, I wonder why you are taking sides !!!!!!!*
  And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the history of Sikhism, casteism was never NOT a part of it. Even when the Jatts converted en masse under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Jatts NEVER lost their caste identity or kinship ties. Even the Sikh Misls were identified and known by caste.
*Aren’t we discussing Gurbani with support of Bhai Gurdas ji. If some don’t follow Gurbani, does it mean that is true, you bent all the way to say Guru ji himself used his caste which is a lie, then you feel sorry for me, I think you should feel sorry for yourself for guessing and posting a lie.*

  I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one. This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas

*Aren’t we discussing  Sikhism and caste system why Vashnavas are brought in here, what is the purpose? Why drums for them are beaten even when they are not part of issue we discuss,  that scares me.*

  No one has yet answered WHY Gurbani itself identifies Guru Ramdas Ji by caste surname. Simply quoting a vaar of Bhai Gurdas does not remove this tuuk from Gurbani,
[/FONT]    *Why only you see but Bhai Gurdas ji doesn’t?. Now why his statement became insignificant because of that one word? Why that Tuk was not considered by Guru Gobind Singh ji as you do?*
  The only point, ALL human beings are corrupted. Being a Hindu is not an automatic designation of the WORST of Hinduism, any more than being a Sikh is the GREATEST most SPIRITUAL attainment. Let's be reasonable. You want to beat the drums loudly, and here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago
*Simply to tell you that kind of stuff exists there, Gurbani says followers of Gurbani should only accept Gurbani as True, why you beat the drum of those scriptures uncalled for, dont we have enough to move on? Do you believe more those ones or Gurbani? Lets accept Gurbani praises them but Gurbani also say truth is only Gurbani, those are about trade. Why you point on me, I am simply quoting what is said about them in Gurbani, you have very little understanding of Gurbani and you feel sorry for me, that is funny, why? If translator does poor thing, it affects your understanding.. You accept tri muthi, I quoted two shabadas one by Fifth Nanak and one by Kabir ji in which all those trimuthi conceptual entities are counted as one of the millions He created like them, how you force on Sikhs that thing by ignoring what is said in SGGS ji. In Japji Pouri 30, after describing this trimurthi concept, Guru ji keeps saying that actually it is He who runs the business not those three. Well, you don’t need any evidence from Gurbani.*

  You know veer ji, ancient Hebrews also had animal sacrifice. And this became interpreted within Christianity as special puja of the human sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, whenever I have debated with Christians, I do not go on about how anciently the Jewish scriptures say sacrifice animals. WHY? Because it's not relevant to today's practice of Christianity

*Bhain ji, you always forget one thing, when an avalanche of quotes from Hindu scriptures is posted on, I have to tell that there are not only these things but also that bad stuff but SGGS Ji doesn’t have. Why it bothers you Bhain ji, being fair, don’t you think people should know about that stuff too. I have a lot of references about them and are very degrading and demeaning, it is part of it.  You pointed out about hypocrisy of pseudo Sikhs, didn’t I agree? That was a fact. But from you, I didn’t read” Yes Veer ji, there are fanatic Hindus too who play same dirty games” Why not Bhain ji?*
*Lets see this following Tuk, the other one is about His creation*
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ 
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350
*Because you never honestly discussed them properly to learn how good things are found there, as you Hindus say, Kuran is not true but they never discussed good stuff in there. Both Vedas and Kuran contain good stuff but most of the time people pick some thing and start declaring them lies. If you remember, as per Guru Huakm, I wrote except Gurbani nothing true; however, it is also Guru Hukm( M-3) *
*You just start converting Guru Nanak into other sect, how fair is this. We don’t follow them, if they are referred, it was just to tell that they were not followed; however, it is very much true that a lot of stuff added to them. That is why the cream of them was buried under added contaminations. Even against these Vedas  Bhagwat Geeta speaks. Why so? Because of contamination added to them later on.*
CONTINUES


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 5, 2008)

> _ Can any one call Guru Vashnava who believes in Tri murthy, Krishna etc? Guru ji clearly says, just take deep breath, those kind of entities are created by Him in millions. Here these Vashnavas are stuck with Tri murthy concept._


No they're not.  Lol.  Trimurthi is mentioned in Gurbani in a way which precisely fits the definition of AUM,/OM which is why I'm persuaded that Onkara means same thing as Omkara.  That's the only reason for mentioning it.  To discuss Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani it does pivot on concept of avataaras, of Guruji being called an avataar and such.



> _"...here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago..."_
> Simply to tell you that kind of stuff exists there, Gurbani says followers of Gurbani should only accept Gurbani as True, why you beat the drum of those scriptures uncalled for, dont we have enough to move on?


I... have read... Shiva sutras and used to study Siddha yoga... but thank you for sharing.



> Do you believe more those ones or Gurbani? Lets accept Gurbani praises them but Gurbani also say truth is only Gurbani, those are about trade. Why you point on me, I am simply quoting what is said about them in Gurbani, you have very little understanding of Gurbani and you feel sorry for me, that is funny, why? If translator does poor thing, it affects your understanding..


I feel sorry for you when you are constantly saying the most derogatory things about Hinduism, not because of your separate opinions about Gurbani.



> You accept tri muthi, I quoted two shabadas one by Fifth Nanak and one by Kabir ji in which all those trimuthi conceptual entities are counted as one of the millions He created like them, how you force on Sikhs that thing by ignoring what is said in SGGS ji.


Veer ji, the sansaara was created out of the three gunas, per Gurbani.  And... the three gunas... are representative... of the Trimurthy... and the three states of duality consciousness in bondage to Maya... and the Eko Brahman represents the nirguna of the Fourth state... that's why there's three... It's a conceptual truth... but nevermind.  It's not important.  You don't have to understand.


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

You are condemning what Gurbani says the God Himself has brought into being. To what purpose? I say the purpose is to demonize Hindu religion, to degrade and humiliate Hindu teachings by gross distortion and abuse, and propagandistically fuel the hatreds dividing the Sikh-Hindu communities which have already led to so much bloodshed
*Whenever Guru ji says, He created Vedas, He created all beings (remember good or bad), why you are after pseudo believers? They are also created by God.  When Guru ji says Vedas are created by Him, they become pious, but when Guru says He created all ( Eh Vis sansaar tum dekhte Har ka roop hai” you don’t consider all pious and start a campaign against that pious creation of God , I wonder !!!!! Wismaad Wismaad..*


   "Disgusting." "Worthless." "Degrading." "Evil." "Obscene." "Insulting." Isn't that what you keep calling Hinduism? 

_"Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience...?"_ 

You're joking right?

*What happened to you Bhain ji? You are picking those words without caring that those were used about the bad parts found in them, as in Atharva Veda, Shiv Purana, Simirities, these words were addressed to those parts, Ram Beheads low class who is contemplating on Lord, should I call it “ wonderful?’*
*Shiva is got crazy because of lust and lot of things happened, should I call” excellent, very inspiring? First, wife must be shared with Brahamin” should I call” what a good stuff to live in harmony, just share wives with Brahamin." Come on, you can do better.*


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 5, 2008)

> _Bhain ji, why you question a religion on the basis of pseudo Sikhs?_


I'm not.  I'm deliberately pointing out you do this to Hinduism by labeling it bad, evil, based on worthless, degrading, disgusting and obscene holy scriptures.  So the point is simply, you should not judge Sikhi by it's worst examples.  So stop judging Hinduism by it's worst examples.



> _Whenever Guru ji says, He created Vedas, He created all beings (remember good or bad)_


So are you implying the Vedas and all Vedantic spirituality is part of the "bad" things God created?



> What happened to you Bhain ji? You are picking those words without caring that those were used about the bad parts found in them, as in Atharva Veda, Shiv Purana, Simirities, these words were addressed to those parts, Ram Beheads low class who is contemplating on Lord, should I call it “ wonderful?’
> Shiva is got crazy because of lust and lot of things happened, should I call” excellent, very inspiring? First, wife must be shared with Brahamin” should I call” what a good stuff to live in harmony, just share wives with Brahamin." Come on, you can do better.


Veer ji, you have never said the Vedas are wonderful, but ignore the bad parts.  You have equated the entire Vedantic religion as Worthless, disgusting, insulting, obscene.  DO you understand the examples of the failings of devas has to do with spiritual symbolism and moral lessons of how NOT to become corrupted?  You forget the Vaishnavs relegate Shiva to status of demi-god.  He is not worshipped.  Shiva is a powerful symbolism which has strong positive and negative components especially in relation to shakti and shakti Devi, which is Kali.  The Buddhists call these Heruka deities.  They are frightening and powerful, but protective.  The Muslims and Christians would call them demonic.  Do you understand about devas, it is talking about profound and sometimes gupt teachings within the symbolism?  Did you see the powerful katha by the Nihang which Aad0002 ji posted explaining the strange tuuks in Gurbani which talk about the behavior of the devas?  I did not say you should call anything wonderful.  But Gurbani says "wonderful are the Vedas."


ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥
visamaadh naadh visamaadh vaedh ||
Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 463​


> _Both Vedas and Kuran contain good stuff but most of the time people pick some thing and start declaring them lies. _


So why exactly are you declaring Vedas worthless, disgusting, etc and ALL yogis and brahmins and Hindus as corrupted hypocites?



> You just start converting Guru Nanak into other sect, how fair is this. We don’t follow them, if they are referred, it was just to tell that they were not followed; however, it is very much true that a lot of stuff added to them. That is why the cream of them was buried under *added contaminations.* Even against these Vedas Bhagwat Geeta speaks. Why so? Because of contamination added to them later on.


Can you accept there has always been a sanatan Sikh opinion, which by existing does not "insult" or "offend" your extreme sensitivity as having Sikh identity based solely on intolerance and rejection of all things Hindu?  Yet, even here you are talking about how intolerable it is for you to even hear a sanatan opinion, and accuse even Bhagavad-Gita of rejecting Vedas because of "contaminations."  How sad.  Veer ji, the Vedas have authority of Sruti.  The Manu Smritis do not.  NO ONE who is Hindu speaks against the Vedas, certainly not the Upanishads and Puranas.  All you do is define Sikh identity by how it is superior to the worthless, corrupted spirituality of Hindus.  And that's the attitude behind the incredible intolerance and feeling of insult for a Sikh to even acknowledge or hear the view that Sikhism is sanatan.  Because to you, anything Hindu is disgusting and low.

So much intolerance you sound like a jihadi!  Why do you persist in accusing that all Hindu religion as based on some disgusting contaminated spiritual teaching?




> Bhain ji, you always forget one thing, when an avalanche of quotes from Hindu scriptures is posted on, I have to tell that there are not only these things but also that bad stuff but SGGS Ji doesn’t have. Why it bothers you Bhain ji, being fair, don’t you think people should know about that stuff too. I have a lot of references about them and are very degrading and demeaning, it is part of it. You pointed out about hypocrisy of pseudo Sikhs, didn’t I agree? That was a fact. But from you, I didn’t read” Yes Veer ji, there are fanatic Hindus too who play same dirty games” Why not Bhain ji?


Because you are making one crucial mistake.  You are equating ALL Hindu people, and ALL Hindu philosophy as being the WORST POSSIBLE EXCESSES YOU CAN FIND.

So Hindu RELIGION is something DEGRADING, DISGUSTING AND DEMEANING?  I've had better conversations with Christian fundamentalists and militant Muslims.  You just don't get it, do you?



> I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one. This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas
> 
> Aren’t we discussing Sikhism and caste system why Vashnavas are brought in here, what is the purpose? Why drums for them are beaten even when they are not part of issue we discuss, that scares me.


Because the Vaishnavs reformed the caste system with their military acharas.  So learning about how the history of military Orders in North India were the first to break down the caste barriers on a wide scale does tell us something about the unifying of castes within the Khalsa, also a military Order. 



> What I quoted are not my translation, so don’t twist, translation most of the time I use is by Manmohan Singh who understands more both languages( English and Punjabi) than Sant Singh Khalsa.* I feel, you are trying to prove Sikhism has no religion, it is borrowed from Vashnava( poor guys do not have concept of Ordinance though) and Hinduism( which is a bundle od sects), it is very swear attack. You called Guru Nanak Vashnava but felt negativity in my comments about Sanatan or Vashanva religion,* I wonder why you are taking sides !!!!!!!


You really can't see just how much you hate Hinduism.  That is truly sad.  Sikhism is a part of ancient and eternal teaching, called sanatana Dharma.  And it is very beautiful and eloquent correction of many corruptions in the human heart.  It is an authentic spiritual philosophy by the One Jyot Satguru who is an avataara.  it is a tolerant teaching about brotherhood.  Nothing in the Singh Sabha mentality of "_rejection and intolerance of all things Hindu_" has shown me anything which shares in the beauty of Gurbani's universal, high spiritual message.  If you want, you can base a separate and independant hostile identity on it.  Who can stop you?


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## spnadmin (Aug 5, 2008)

Warning to Harjas ji: Please refrain from personal attacks on individuals e.g., "So much intolerance you sound like a jihadi."

A forceful critique in Hard Talk could be something like this:_ Here is the fundamental error that you are making in your argument. _

A critique that is not forceful is one in which _motives and statements are imputed to an individual without basis in fact. _

Thank you.


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## dalbirk (Aug 5, 2008)

Dear Harjas Bhainji ,
This is for ur information . I recently came across these old article carrying old news . These r as follows :
1. A circular carrying signatures of SSP Lucknow , B B Bakshi bearing no S.T / S.S.P 32/2001/4140 issued in May , 2001 orders his subordinates that they should preapre aregister of Sikhs & Muslims families living in their areas & keep an eye on their activities . In the circular it has been strictly instructed that Muslims & Sikhs whether living in poor slums or rich colonies , they should be watched very strictly .
In another instruction , district magistrates have been asked to prepare a list of properties either bought or leased plots , lands & houses . In instruction no 13 it has been mentiones that Sikhs visiting Nanak Mata Gurudwara & Pakistan Gurudwaras should be kept under watch , their lists prepared & informations reagrding them be given to police chiefs .
The ex-servicemen also have been made suspicious by BJP Govt . About them instruction has been given that lists of people retired after service in Army , Navy & Air Force soldiers should be prepared . 
     The ruling Govt in the state of UP at that time was BJP ( RSS ) under Rajnath Singh , I suppose the present National Party President of BJP .
2 . The second news is also from the BJP ( RSS ) ruled state of Madhya Pradesh in ( Dainik Jagran 06/03/2002 , Guna Edition ) . Actually events happened like this . Some Dalits ( Hindu ) of some villages in Guna district of MP converted to Sikhism by partaking Amrit . Seeing them many more Dalits got encouraged to convert to Sikhism . These events turned important when some news papers belonging to Elite Hindus published the news in such dramatic manner that as if they had unravelled some Anti- National deed being done secretly : " .... this thing should be kept in mind that in some villages of Arone & Ashok Nagar tehsils religious conversions were taking place . The Dalit people living here were converting to Sikh religion . So for this not only they had grown their head & facial hair , but they had taken Amrit according to the Sikh Religion & had adopted the customs of this religion . Uptill now this conversion was taking place secretly but suddenly this matter was reported in news paper headlines . When the matter was made public immediately the authorities swinged into action .... " ( Dainik Jagran , Dt 06/03/2002 , Guna Edition ) 
What the administrating authorities did by swinging in action has been narrated by local Sikhs . According to them the police of Aaron Tehsil , Sarpanches of Villages , Tehsildars , Patwari & other adminstrating staff went to the village of Dalits convering to Sikhs . These newly converted Sikhs were gathered at one place , firstly their pictures were clicked then they were threatened to cut their hair & leave Sikhism or face dire consequences . These newly converted Sikhs refused to comply with their orders , then in front of everybody beat up Puran Singh son of Shiv Lal mercilessly . Even then when he did not agree to cut his hair , the local police took him to the police station in a jeep . There he was again mercilessly beaten , his kakaars taken & he was relaesed aften threatening him of dire consequences if he did not cut his hair & leave Sikhism . After this other converted Sikhs were also threatened in same way . More so , they were threated to get Govt aid stopped & their properties confiscated . Three Sikhs gave up & returned to Hinduism , rest of them pleaded for help to local Singh Sabha . That Singh Sabha has tried to get this issue addressed by writing to all Panthic institutions as well as talking to local media , but their efforts don't seem to be bearing fruit .....
( With thanks from Sikh Phulwari , June , 2002 Edition )


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## Astroboy (Aug 5, 2008)

Read this article and tell me if Sikhs and Hindus can still live side by side in all fairness and just conditions.

*Click here >* How Sikhs ruined themselves in their Brahmanic Leanings


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

You really can't see just how much you hate Hinduism. That is truly sad. Sikhism is a part of ancient and eternal teaching, called sanatana Dharma.

*With all due respect Bhain ji, you think you are a pretty good judge, you can judge Guru, judge me( not even knowing me) as a Hindu hater that the worst slap I ever have. Thanks for lowering yourself too low for those whom I do not hate.. When you say about Sikhism, “what is new?” When you lie that Guru ji claimed about his caste, when you say Sikhism has borrowed every thing from Sanatana, Vashnava, you are just judging on guesses  and that should be accepted with a “great bow” and all Sikhs should consider you a new DEVI who has appeared in Sikhism to teach real Sikhism regardless very limited understanding of Gurbani, I gave you Guru Vaak after Guru Vaak, I gave you Shabad after shabad not translated by me but by others but you continue Your campaign of slandering every one related to Sikhism. Vedas are called Vismaad” well Guru called more many things Vismaad. That is a state of mind he keeps praising every thing of HIM, You just pick some thing and stick to it.. Bhai Gurdas ji couldn’t convince you, Bhagatas and Guru Shabadas couldn’t convince you and you keep doing what you have been doing. This time you just go beyond every reservation by calling me Hindu haters. Can I call you Sikh hater though you sound so, but I cannot because only your guesses and bent upon approach to force sanatana and Vashnava and related pictures on Sikhs are not enough to judge you.. Dalsingh ji once tried to wake you up that you were speaking against Guru Nanak house, but you went further; you called Guru Nanak a Vashnava. All you read views of scholars from others sides, many of which could be just those kinds of guesses you do all the time. We do not know what is authentic. Why pictures are being posted? Do they beautify this site or give energy to progress? Or to say that those were real guys and you met them and took pictures of them. One of my very spiritual friend( Posted wonderful Gurbani views here on this site), told me” Don’t waste time, people argue on views based on scholars just to say some thing of their own, no one knows how authentic those views are” Now I agree with him, now I see what he was hinting at. I didn’t want to say a word against any one, you kept forcing others on Sikhs, how many times I told you” bhai n ji leave us alone, let us learn only from Gurbani, we don’t need Veda, Geeta, Kuran as their believers do not need SGGS Ji either. Only those move from heart who HE picks up, others just wrestle in the dirt as you and I do. I am convinced about his advice.*
Aren’t we discussing Sikhism and caste system why Vashnavas are brought in here, what is the purpose? Why drums for them are beaten even when they are not part of issue we discuss, that scares me.
  Because the Vaishnavs reformed the caste system with their military acharas. So learning about how the history of military Orders in North India were the first to break down the caste barriers on a wide scale does tell us something about the unifying of castes within the Khalsa, also a military Order
*Were we discussing who others did that kind of revolution? No. It is just habit of beating drum of those ones*
You pointed out about hypocrisy of pseudo Sikhs, didn’t I agree? That was a fact. But from you, I didn’t read” Yes Veer ji, there are fanatic Hindus too who play same dirty games” Why not Bhain ji?
    Because you are making one crucial mistake. You are equating ALL Hindu people, and ALL Hindu philosophy as being the WORST POSSIBLE EXCESSES YOU CAN FIN

*Look at your response, still not a word against fanatic Hindus because you think there is no fanatics in Hinduism. I am not equating ALL Hindu people, it is your small heart that feels that way, I used a word with Hindus” Fanatic” that separates Hindu public from them. What a display of understanding! Wismad Too much knowledge!!!*

CONTINUES


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## pk70 (Aug 5, 2008)

Can you accept there has always been a sanatan Sikh opinion, which by existing does not "insult" or "offend" your extreme sensitivity as having Sikh identity based solely on intolerance and rejection of all things Hindu?
*You talk about Nirmale quite often, Firt Guru ji’s son was not considered worth to carry on Guru ji’s jyot, why? His views were not aligned with Guru ji’s. That tells the whole story in context of Nanak Panth about all others views. Thanks to those Muslims who recorded Sikhism as Nanak Panth at least they didn’t negate the originality of Sikhism like you are doing now. Guru Gobind Singh ji never asked for separate state or propagated against Hindus, why more Hindu kings kept harassing him? Wasn’t he representing Guru Nanak who wrote” Wismaad Ved”? Why Hindu fanatic turned so cruel against house of Nanak?  Why, what Lakhpat rai did and said, is forgotten and only what Muslim fanatics did, is remembered. Why a witness of genocide, Hindu PM says” when big tree fall, this kind of stuff happens?” Why pundit Nehru in his Memo told civil servants that Sikhs were not good? I used word Fanatic with those Hindus but never curse or showed my hatred towards Hindu public but you are coloring it in bad sense simply because of your poor judgmental merit.*

*Last but not least, Bhain ji, you have never answered my crucial questions, only thing that bothers you is about Hinduism, Vashnavas, Vedas, avataras.  It seems you have a  determination to campaign against those Sikhs who fail to pass Gurbani test  just as you and I.
*    Those devtas are being described in Gurbani. There is ample historical evidence those devtas were included in Sikh Gurdwaras and Harmandir Sahib. I'm showing that Vishnu is being described in Gurbani, in relation to the pauri praising the Das Avataaras because that is the definition of Vaishnavism. And that is why I have said Guruji is Vaishnav. I have not seen anyone correct this opinion as wrong, only ridiculous overreaction of feeling "personally offended" and "insulted" that sanatan Sikhism is expressed, has a history, and even supported by Gurbani.


*Bhain ji, you are talking about Devtas in Gurdawaras, they tried to install Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji in Mandirs, you are proving Sikhism as Hinduism not on the basis of Scriptures as fair scholars do but like biased ones who notice those things and beat their empty drums.. Gurgaddi was given to Sri guru Granth Sahib only, but look, Dasam Granth which was not in that shape at the time of Tenth Nanak, is revered as Guru too  and installed in Gurdawaras. Followers of Banda Bahadur also started calling him Guru as per Historical records. How you can judge Sikhism on these baseless things.*

  Gurubani and even Vaisnava Puranas claim there are millions of avataars just like there are millions of worlds. But the das avataaras are special to OUR world

*You are just getting desparate Bhain ji to prove your false assumptions as true ones, Guru ji says"he created like them millions", that is a fact, Guru ji or Bhagat Kabir ji do not say that these ten or twelve are special ones. Only you are saying, Sikhs follow Guru not you. When reasons run out, speculations take over, that fact is pretty much applicable here. By the way I am not against any Devtas, for me every thing is Guru Nanak, just I have been trying to say do not force these guys on us, that is not that big I am asking. !!!
Enjoy what Guru ji says literally about those you say special for this world 
*[/FONT]    ਕੇਤੇਪਵਣਪਾਣੀਵੈਸੰਤਰਕੇਤੇਕਾਨਮਹੇਸ॥
kaethae pavan paanee vaisanthar kaethae kaan mehaes ||
So many winds, waters and fires; so many Krishnas and Shivas.( JAPJI Sahib Mehl-1)


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Aug 6, 2008)

> _Warning to Harjas ji: Please refrain from personal attacks on individuals e.g., "So much intolerance you sound like a jihadi."
> 
> A forceful critique in Hard Talk could be something like this: Here is the fundamental error that you are making in your argument.
> 
> ...


I quit.  Members have called people who support sanatana Dharma a {censored}, and remained unmoderated for months.  Hindu scriptures are called "disgusting," "worthless," "obscene", Hindus are called hypocritical, corrupted ON THIS VERY THREAD and remained unmoderated.  I am called foolish, ignorant, accused of being RSS agent, trying to convert Sikhism to Hinduism, accused of "disrespecting the SIkh identity" when no respect whatsoever is shown to sanatan identity, then I receive a warning for calling these attitudes and abusive talk like intolerant jihadis.  My threads are deleted without notice.  Threads I participate on are closed while I am accused of disrespecting Sikh identity to make beautiful comparison to Vaishnavism.  Yet Hinduism called evil and disgusting is not seen as disrespect.  You are a hopeless discussion forum.  No fairness at all.  Somehow a discussion which analyzed Vaishnav teachings in Gurbani was considered disrespectful, and threads which singled out my views for ATTACK and ridicule were praised and supported.


I quit these forums.  I know that was your intention all along to either make enough reason to delete and ban me, or drive me off.  It is my purpose not to be bogged down with juvenile accusations but to have a mature and scholarly study and learn by evaluating credible history and tolerating ALL points of view.  Keep deluding yourselves about fairness, and enjoy your prejudicial and forum which does nothing but espouse hatred of Hinduism in the name of promoting/defending Sikh identity.

Good bye.  I know you are all happy I'm leaving.  Please don't distort what I have written in my absence.  Have some decency not to start new topics in my name.

_"The end result is your true intent."_

_"Do not cast your pearls before swine." ~Jesus_


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## Astroboy (Aug 7, 2008)

Harjas Ji,

I've just started and you're quitting. Just when it started to become interesting. !!!
Well take a break (I need a break too) and see you back soon. 
I apologize for my short-comings because  I need to defend my faith 
and sometimes cannot see from a neutral point of view. :yes:


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## pk70 (Aug 7, 2008)

I apologize for my short-comings because  I need to defend my faith 
and sometimes cannot see from a neutral point of view. :yes:
*Good hearted namjap ji
Is it an apology for defending your faith or you feel  guilty for doing nothing ?* * My respected and spiritual Sister feels guilty due to her big and passionate heart*.*I was just passing by and saying Hello to a progressed soul.*


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## Astroboy (Aug 7, 2008)

PK70 Ji,

*



			My respected and spiritual Sister feels....
		
Click to expand...


Our respected sister, Harjas Kaur Khalsa has good intentions and she did us a favour by teaching us how to defend our faith - as earlier she was the only one doing it without any support from fellow Sikhs. Now, to educate us and transforming us from a sparrow attitude to an eagle attitude, she's playing the opposite role. She's really a teacher, learn from her heavy blows. She wants to raise our spirits high and mighty, the way it should be. She's concerned that Sikhism of the Sikhs and Sikhism of the Gurus does not connect anymore. 




*


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## KulwantK (Aug 8, 2008)

Sat Nam, everyone.
It is most interesting to see how discussions evolve.  
Hinduim is a broad and vast religion.  It appeals to some, and not to others.  The same could be said for nearly every system of relating to the Divine.
Each of us is an individual expression of the Divine.
Hopefully each of us may find what Path to the Divine works for us.
One of the things about Sikhism which I have found very appealing is that in Sikhism, no disrespect is ever intended towards any other faith.
It can be easy to get very enthusiastic about defending one's faith, and so, with that in mind, let us also be mindful to not attack other's.
However, any attempts at conversion are frowned upon in Sikhism.
Also, one must be very careful in the use of language and semantics, for if not, it can be viewed that a defense of one's faith is an attack upon another's way of faith.
When posting, please consider your use of language most carefully.
Cool heads, warm hearts.
Wahe Guru


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## Astroboy (Mar 25, 2009)

> Since it is a Christian tradition to jap the holy name of Jesus, Jesus for hours, not unlike the Sufi's Allah, Allah, or the Vaishnavs Raam, Raam, or the Sikh's Vaheguru, Vaheguru, I think it is possible for mind of SOME Christians to be purified if they are sincere and follow their spiritual teachings. All religions have become corrupted. But there are saints in all religions.



ਕਬੀਰ  ਰਾਮ  ਕਹਨ  ਮਹਿ  ਭੇਦੁ  ਹੈ  ਤਾ  ਮਹਿ  ਏਕੁ  ਬਿਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥ 
Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār. 
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. 

ਸੋਈ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਸਭੈ  ਕਹਹਿ  ਸੋਈ  ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ  ॥੧੯੦॥ 
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥ 
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190|| 
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190|| 

ਕਬੀਰ  ਰਾਮੈ  ਰਾਮ  ਕਹੁ  ਕਹਿਬੇ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਬਿਬੇਕ  ॥ 
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥ 
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek. 
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. 

ਏਕੁ  ਅਨੇਕਹਿ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਗਇਆ  ਏਕ  ਸਮਾਨਾ  ਏਕ  ॥੧੯੧॥ 
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥ 
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191|| 
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191|| 
(Ang 1374)


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## Sevadar (May 27, 2010)

I am not as good on religion discussion as some of the members but from all the replies and counter replies I have read I have to say that Guru Nanak used the language that was prevalent at that time. And I don't think  its logically right to invent new language to spread the word. Guru used language as bowl to serve naam. Personally i think guru used all the examples of the faiths and religions present at that time to guide sikhs towards Akal purkh. I do not know how anybody can convey their message without quoting whats happening around them.

Regarding Sikhism as separate religion. I don't know how anybody define religion...how would we define hinduism....I guess just compare what fundamental differences are.
To separate Hinduism we have to define it.......what is hinduism....? Do hindus believe in one god...? Personally I don't think so? If they do then why do they pray all those avataars and demi gods? do sikhs pray avataras and demi gods....NO
Harjas Kaur Khalsa mentioned guru's were avataars...thats incarnation..so do we all humans are.... according to Sikhism. But do we pray avataars....NO
Harjas ji recognized sikhs as a sect....I would like to ask when does a sect become  religion....? When sect has fundamentally unique philosphy....I think sikhism have that philosophy that anybody can attain highest being....AKal purkh by naam simran....thats the biggest difference sikhism have from other religions.

Or its number of people or population?
or people having different cultural and ritual values..? I think we have that too.
I don't see sikhs rituals as same as hindu religion?

I don't know what Harjas ji trying to say here, are hindu religion fundamentally is different than what majority of hindu's practising?


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## roopsidhu (May 28, 2010)

SSA,
There is no doubt that sikhism is totally dyfferant than other religions. Our First gurus were born in hinduism but after realising that hinduism is not the Attal Dharma they have established the independent sikh religion. But still gurus taught us to be  low to earth ( in behaiviour) that they have written " ham nahi change bura nahi koi" hence we shouls respect all. But the fact will always prevail that we are not branch of any other religion.
Roopsidhu


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## Seeker9 (Jul 8, 2010)

A fascinating debate!

I guess it would depend on what level of detail you would want to look at the different religions. In so far as there is one divine creative power and one source, there should be scope for some similarities between them, and I would respectfully suggest that is not a bad thing or insulting thing at all

Some consideration should also be given to the chronology of different religions. Sikhism benefits from being established more recently than older faiths. So it's very practical in its teachings. Older religions came about at a time when mankind had less knowledge about astronomy and aspects of nature like why it rains etc. So you have various gods and goddesses to explain different aspects of nature (although as an aside, there is an interpretation that all these demi gods are just manifestations (or like limbs) of one supreme God so ultimately still monotheistic and not polytheistic)

My belief is that different teachers came at different times throughout mankind's history and tailored their teachings to suit the knowledge levels and understanding of their followers at that specific time

These surface features often obscure the spiritual jewels underneath. For example, I don't need to accept the Biblical version of the creation to appreciate other spiritual teachings within the Bible...... e.g "As ye sow so shall ye reap" is as good a summary of the laws of Karma as you will get in eastern religions

There are a number of spiritual realms on the way to Sach Khand. It is entirely feasible that followers of these different faiths can make progress within these realms

It's down to what works for you

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji works for me because it is practical and not full of ritual and ceremony.
So I'm happy!
And I am happy for others on different paths if their spiritual needs are being met on those paths!!

Happy Happy Happy!!
:happysingh:


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## karam (Sep 26, 2010)

Guru Nanak followed truth only, all other paths had some degree of truth to them so the followers of hinduism, islam,sufism may find some similarities with the sikhism, recently I came across a budhist site and they beleive Guru Nanak was a Budha disciple and later on became a world reknown Guru, lol, so everyone is trying to establish a connection with Guru Nanak Dev jee, Guru Nanak was knower of all the paths, whenever he came across any hindu, budhist, Mohammaden, sufi on their respective spiritual path and Guru Nanak found out the hurdles on the path Guru just fixed the problem and let them continue their spiritual journey on their respective paths instead of changing their path altogather, so whatever is true is true for every religion, Guru Nanak just offered us more refined view of concept of one God, Guru Nanak solved the issue for us as islamics beleive creation is separate from creater but Guru Nanak beleived..
"jeu suraj kiran raviya sarab thai, sabh ghat ghat raam ravijai"Kalyaan mahla4,p.1326
 means the way sun is present every where through its rays same way God is present in every atom of this universe,sun can not get into deep crevices but God pervades everything visible invisible.So Guru Nanak refined the concept of one God and how it pervades everything.  
Other faiths are also right to some degree, they also got streaks of truth to them but sikhi way is perfect, Guru nanak also rejected the useless stuff present in the faiths of that time, murtee puja in hindus, rituals of hajj/makka and fast in islam, so whatever was useless Guru Nanak openly condemned that.  I beleive sikhism is more refined than any other faiths


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## notreligious (May 3, 2011)

If you look at ALL religion, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism and many more, they all teach the same concepts and the same links can be made. Why? Because the truth is what it is.

There are many paths too enlightenment. Sikhism is one way. As is Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and others.

Humans are naturally tribalistic and as soon as you put a lable on something, that is when the taking of sides occurs: "may religion is better because.... or that faith is defective because..." Arguments like this are simply manifestations of ego.

God has no form. The universal creator which we are unable to fully comprehend has no sex, no race and no religion! 

Read the Bible. If you search you will see that that concepts like karma, reincarnation, eternal life, forgiveness etc are taught.

Read Islam and you will find that it is no different. Mankind has unfortunately manipulated religion to suit its own ends.

Read the Hindu and Sikh texts and all the above are contained within it. 

We all believe that God manifests itself in different ways. Are not the Hindu God's simply symbolic ways of describing these manifestations?


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## BhagatSingh (May 4, 2011)

> There are many paths too enlightenment. Sikhism is one way. As is Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and others.
> 
> Humans are naturally tribalistic and as soon as you put a lable on  something, that is when the taking of sides occurs: "may religion is  better because.... or that faith is defective because..." Arguments like  this are simply manifestations of ego.


Seconded. All religions are in essence the same. 

Training oneself to (intuitively) see the essence of things is what spirituality is all about. Eventually you get to a point where you see the same essence in everything. A timeless essence not only present in religion but also in rocks, microbes, stars.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 4, 2011)

Kabir Ji in his Verses has already clarified that ALTHOUGH...the word "RAAM" seems to be the SAME..the REFERENCE in everyones mind is NOT the same at all.

Many when referring to RAAM...mean that to be Ram Chander the son of dasrath, husband of Sita and brother of Laxman and whose armies fought and defeated Ravnna of Lanka.
BUT..there is also another, very different RAAM...He is the Kautakhaar..the DOER..the Creator..the Playwright...the ALL PERVADING RAAM. Now BOTH Groups of people use the same word "RAAM" BUT mean very DIFFERENTLY as to who they are referring to...

Guru Teg bahadur Ji also makes this very clear that the RAAM that CRIED on being separated from SITA, one who had a BIG Family and vast number of armies and friends..DIED just like nay other who was BORN on this EARTH...the "RAAM" that CREATES is Never BORN and thus NEVER DIES.

This DISTICTION made so many times in SGGS GURBANI is IGNORED by many who keep on repeating the broken record..Raam is mentioned...5000 times in SGGS..so Gurbani is HINDU !! These either fail to see the distinction made by Guru Ji and Bhagat Jis or ignore it deliberately to paint SGGS as a HINDU text..praising the Raam  son of dasarth/sita/laxman/diwali dussehra !! The VAST MAJORITY of RAAM in SGGS is the CREATOR BEING - also known as WAHEGURU, GOPAL, BEETHAL, KRISHAN etc etc which also NOT the same as those in the HINDU MYTHOLOGY/IDOL Context.


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## Randip Singh (May 7, 2011)

I have a few questions for all of you.

Is ritualism an integral part of original Sikhism or is it something introduced later?

Is the Sikh concept of “Onkar” the same as “God, Allah, Bhagwan”? God here being the Abrahamic, or Hindu sense.

Sewa  or Service is an integral part of Sikhism. Do Sikhs do it to go to  heaven, especially when Sikhism does not believe in heaven or hell (Swarag and Narag)?

Is becoming a Gurmukh (living Onkars will) the same as Salvation? The opposite is Manmukh or self willed.

Saving of Souls etc are Abrahamic concepts, are they relevant in Sikhism? InHinduism we talk of the "Atma" and reincarnation to a higher lever, is this really relevant in Sikhism (especially since reincarnation is directly responsible for the caste system)?

Have any of you read the Guru Granth Sahib ?


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## BhagatSingh (May 7, 2011)

Randip Singh ji, if interpreted a certain way the answer to all your questions can be "yes" and if interpreted in another certain way, the answer to all questions can be "no". 

I remember in one video this spiritual teacher (Tolle) compares spiritual teachings coming from various parts of the world as "signposts". He says they are pointers that point one towards the Truth. They do not contain the truth in themselves. The mind wants to analyze all these signposts but it cannot get to the truth by analyzing signposts. Also the truth itself cannot be reduced to thought, cannot be comprehended like that.

ਸੋਚੈ  ਸੋਚਿ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਸੋਚੀ  ਲਖ  ਵਾਰ  ॥
सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
ਚੁਪੈ  ਚੁਪ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਲਾਇ  ਰਹਾ  ਲਿਵ  ਤਾਰ  ॥
चुपै चुप न होवई जे लाइ रहा लिव तार ॥
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
ਭੁਖਿਆ  ਭੁਖ  ਨ  ਉਤਰੀ  ਜੇ  ਬੰਨਾ  ਪੁਰੀਆ  ਭਾਰ  ॥
भुखिआ भुख न उतरी जे बंना पुरीआ भार ॥
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
ਸਹਸ  ਸਿਆਣਪਾ  ਲਖ  ਹੋਹਿ  ਤ  ਇਕ  ਨ  ਚਲੈ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥
सहस सिआणपा लख होहि त इक न चलै नालि ॥
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
ਕਿਵ  ਸਚਿਆਰਾ  ਹੋਈਐ  ਕਿਵ  ਕੂੜੈ  ਤੁਟੈ  ਪਾਲਿ  ॥
किव सचिआरा होईऐ किव कूड़ै तुटै पालि ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
ਹੁਕਮਿ  ਰਜਾਈ  ਚਲਣਾ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥੧॥
हुकमि रजाई चलणा नानक लिखिआ नालि ॥१॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||


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## Harwinder (May 7, 2011)

To conclude from the thread and responses. Weather hindu, sikh, muslim, cristianity etc..... 

We understand that all is a way to get in touch with a greater knowledge of being. To bind onslef in the teachings of the creator. weather it be in jesus, avataars, mohamed, or the gurus. All these figures have tought us something very similair. 

To understand that no matter what path YOU MAY CHOSE the mountain top only stands one alone. As said in the thraed, "language is used as a bowl to practice name of the almighty, god , allah , vaihguru..." 

Let us remember when understanding the belief and practices of others and comparing it to us... DO NOT judge for your practice to be better (not to imply anyone has done so). 

"All is god, god is all" 
"I hurt he hurts"

"become careless of all the worldly ritualls and practices that make us humans in different levels of mankind."


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## Randip Singh (May 7, 2011)

Harwinder said:


> To conclude from the thread and responses. Weather hindu, sikh, muslim, cristianity etc.....
> 
> We understand that all is a way to get in touch with a greater knowledge of being. To bind onslef in the teachings of the creator. weather it be in jesus, avataars, mohamed, or the gurus. All these figures have tought us something very similair.
> 
> ...




That is not the issue here, the issue is why people confuse Sikh concepts with other so easily.


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