# What Is Raaga Maala?



## Harry Haller (Sep 1, 2012)

Gurfateh

Oh well another heated debate with family. I am not listening to enough Shabads! Apparently I should stop listening to that heavy metal shetal, and play Shabads. My defence and argument is that I read Bani, research it, debate it and do my best to practice it. Whereas I find it hard to extract any message from listening to Shabads. Of course it can be a pleasant experience, it just is not for me, certainly from a learning point of view. Today however, a veritable strike has been made. Raga Mala was mentioned, but I cannot seem to get my head around it, is it that the musical notes are 'holy' that they compliment the Bani, that by listening one can enlighten oneself without understanding?

I would be grateful for clarification. thank you


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*

There is RaagMaala...and then theres raagmaala....

The First one is a HOTCH POTCH Cut and Paste job done by an unprofessional...he CUT out a few contiguous parts of a LONGER POEM penned by a Poet called madhav nal..who wrote  along poem called Kaam Kandla Raagmaala..around the time of Akbar's reign.
IN the ORIGINAL POEM...the NUMBERS are all in Order..that is they begin with [1] followed by [2]......[199]. followed by [200]........[250] ..followed by [251] etc etc...  BUT the CUT and Paste Con artist afraid of being found out/or just plain IGNORANT...pasted the Parts and numbered them ALL..[1]...[1]....[1]...[1]...[1]....
( The *KabioBach benti Chaupaii* " The *POET'S SAID BENTI IN CHAUPAII FORM*"....is another suhc Copy cate Cut and Paste con perpetrated on sikhs..this Cut and Paste is REMOVED from its ORIGINAL Place in the CHARITAR PAKHOYAN SERIES of DG..where it exists with proper sequences of NUMBERING....BUT when Cut and Pasted as Kabio bach benti Chaupaii for Nitnem..its NUMBERS are CHANGED to [1]...[2]....3 and so on..Here the Con Artist apperars a bit more smart...than the one who cut pasted Ragamala at the end of SGGS.

1. Apart form the Senseless numbering ( comaprd to the Ultra fine tuned numbering system applied by Guur Arjun ji to SGGS making it FOOL PROOF to tampering/additions/subtractions/alterraions etc...) the RAAGS listed in something supposedly a Raag Index of SGGS has Raags that re NOT used in SGGS due to their "context"...Raags used by Courtesans dancing in fornt of Kings where alcohol is drunk liberally etc are NOT used in SGGS (obvioulsy)....BUT those RAAGS are LISTED in this Raagmaala preciely becasue its STOLEN out of a Courtesan darbar Poem written by a court poet to his beautiful dancing gilr friend in front of him....and RAAGS that are used in SGGS are* MISSING CONSCIPICOUSLY* from this supposed Rag index of SGGS.
Thirdly when GURU Nanak ji declares Sri Raag as SHIROMANI Raag..the Raag Maala author declares BHAIRO to be Shiromani Raag...Sri Raag comes FIRST in SGGS..Bhairo raag comes FIRST in RM.

2. The Raag Maala author being a court poet..imagines Raags and Ragnnies and their children...as HUMANS/or DEVTAS...while this concept is not as per Gurmatt...a Raag is just a Raag..a musical composition  a vehicle for the Shabad to ride on..This would be normal for a society where trees are worshipped..monkeys are gods..snakes and rats are worshipped as Avtaars...so Sri raag could marry and have a Raagni wife and raag sons and daughters..blah blah..ok thing...

3. RaagMaala supporters ( the Brahmgyanis and snats derawallahs obviously..who eose..) also have a tall tale attached...IT seems when the SGGS was COMPLETED and SEALED SHUT..by the Mundawnni mohr Slok Mh 5 Tera Kita Jatoh nahin...the Raags, their wives and kids all rushed down form "heaven  swarag..." and fell at Guru Arjun Jis feet..begging for a Place of HONOUR in the Granth that would be GURU and worshipped...so in order to satisfy them..Guru ji wrote a Raag Maala and added it to the back of SGGS...what this story cnat explain is WHY Guru ji ADDED thsoe "raags" not used in SGGS..and  even MORE IMPORTANTLY...LEFT OUT  Raags USED in SGGS !! Were those RAAGS SLEEPING or what ?? Here we have raags not even used being added to a granth to be worshipped for ever..honoured....and those raags USED being LEFT OUT and not a whimper ?? * Isnt it said Rightly that LIARS dont have FEET...JHOOTH de Pair nahin Hundeh..rings so true here..*.How to explain this anamoly ?? This TRAVESTY of JUSTICE and FAIR PLAY ?? Our Guur being so carelsess, unfair and unjust ?? we just accept this {censored} and bull story regardeless of what it means to the Honour of our Guru Ji...

Even Shakespaeare has  said..IF MUSIC be the FOOD of LOVE...PLAY ON. MUSIC is VITAL IN GURMATT....our Guru Granth Ji is the worlds one and only granth all in POETRY set to SPECIFIC Raags, melodies, tunes and Time limited. Morning Raag is ASA..and so on...Deepak Raag cna light a lamp...megh raag can make clouds drop rain..IF sung expertly is an accepted traditional beleif..how far true...no idea..BUT what I DO KNOW is RAAG can BRING TEARS t my eyes...esp DHADEE VAARS sung properly always make my BLOOD boil...JOSH is so automatic...i wonder whay and how..ha ha
The Other day while climbing the stairs of a Gurdwara..I distinctly heard the LAAVAN being SUNG TWICE...on coming into the darbaar sahib i saw the Granthi reading the Laavans much more Musically in SUHI Raag than the Ragi jatha who did Kirtan of the Laavan in the ususal melody which is NOT the SUHI Rag but a hotch potch popualr way all ragis sing the laavan...The Granthi read BETTER...with just his VOICE !!
Firts the Ragis DROPPEd the use of the more difficult to learn Saajs..instruments like sarangee, and the stringed instruments..the VAJA was MUCH MUCH EASIER...now the even LAZIER Raagis have the modern Electronic Pianos..they feed in the melody and the lyrics..the keys light upa nd play automatically...no wonder the Takhat damdama Snagat compalined that the Ragi Jatha had been caught LISTENING TO HINDI FILM SONGS via EARPHONES...while they were DOING KIRTAN ON STAGE for the sangat !!! Their Automatic Pianos were playing the kirtan..while they enjoyed private sessions via earphones...attached to Ipods or tablets ...


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*

My knowledge of Shabad mechanics is rusty to say the least, so please bear with me. 

The tunes that Shabads are sung to is also written down, where would this be?

For a Shabad to be as per Sikhi, does it have to be sung to a specific tune, called a Raag?

I have read somewhere that Shabads sung in the correct Raag have a resonance almost a hypnotic effect that allows the Bani to be almost absorbed, comments please

thank you


----------



## Ishna (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*

To my knowledge, if the shabad is to be sung in a particular tune it is written at the beginning.  Try searching on www.srigranth.org for English 'sung to the tune' and you'll find a list of them.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*



harry haller said:


> My knowledge of Shabad mechanics is rusty to say the least, so please bear with me.
> 
> The tunes that Shabads are sung to is also written down, where would this be?
> 
> ...


Go to this link Ji..and click on ay Shabad..in its Original raag...then tell us how it feels..  btw Gurmat gian group is one of  esteemed SPN members..

http://gurmatgiangroup.com/about/


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*

Raag gauree...http://gurmatgiangroup.com/2011/05/31/thir-ghar-baeso-har-jan-pyarae-raag-gauri/


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Go to this link Ji..and click on ay Shabad..in its Original raag...then tell us how it feels..  btw Gurmat gian group is one of  esteemed SPN members..
> 
> http://gurmatgiangroup.com/about/



but that would be playing into their hands <looking at family photo>

lol lol lol 

Im damned now Gyaniji thanks a lot, because you know what is coming next don't you, I know they read this forum, so I will now get a double barrel of 
'ah we tell you to listen, and you don't,  but that Gyaniji from SPN tells you, and suddenly its wonderful'

thanks again!


----------



## Ishna (Sep 1, 2012)

Awesome link!!  Gyaniji you should make a thread of all the great links you know about!  cheerleader


----------



## linzer (Sep 1, 2012)

Here's another related link. http://www.gurmatsangeetproject.com/index.htmjapposatnamwaheguru:


----------



## namjiwankaur (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*

Gurfateh

Ishna ji, thank you.  I have always contemplated on how sound effects the heart and mind.  One thing about Sikhism that matches me so completely is that I have used songs for a deeper prayerful experience.  And...that is how come I have loved prayer times as Sikhs experience them.

Formal prayer practices of various religions always made me stressed in the end. Doing my banis is so different.  I can't recite them in Gurmukhi, but I like listening to them recited in various recordings.







Ishna said:


> To my knowledge, if the shabad is to be sung in a particular tune it is written at the beginning.  Try searching on www.srigranth.org for English 'sung to the tune' and you'll find a list of them.


----------



## SukhmeetSingh Guruwada (Sep 2, 2012)

Bani Sunnan Naal v bande da mann Saaf hunda hai...

Ate fer apo aap usch Bani Samjan di Surat Ho Jandi hai..

dat wat i thnk


----------



## manbir (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: What is Raaga Maala*

"For a Shabad to be as per Sikhi, does it have to be sung to a specific tune, called a Raag?"

Pardon me,
I just want to add here;

A Raag is Not a 'One Specific Tune'. There is always a possibility of Infinite number of Tunes in a Raag. And every tune may give a different feel and effect.

Example:
1. This Link takes you to a page describing the rules for the use for Raag Sarung:
http://gurmatgiangroup.com/raag-sarang/

In this page there are 5 different links to Shabads all sung in Raag Sarung!

2. This Link takes you to a page describing the rules for the use for Raag Gauri:
http://gurmatgiangroup.com/raag-gauri/
In this page there are 2 different links to Shabads sung in Raag Gauri!

3. This Link takes you to a page describing the rules for the use for Raag Gujri:
http://gurmatgiangroup.com/raag-gujri/
In this page there are 2 different links to Shabads sung in Raag Gujri!

Likewise there are many examples .... 

The effect of singing a Shabad in a particular raag is highly dependent on how it is sung!


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 2, 2012)

Todays Hukmanmah Explanation on ZTV Punjabi gave me a huge shock.....Guru ji uses the words *GANDHEH.*..and *VEAINN *- gandeh means FILTHY and Veainn are Ladies wailing at a death...
And what are these Filthy Wailings...?? THOSE that lead one away from WAHEGURU and attach you to this world...and Wailings as everyone know are a group of old ladies screaming and beating their chests ( mostly for show only) surrounding a  dead body...( SPECIFICALLY BANNED IN SRM and replaced by KIRTAN ONLY )..

So I got to Thinking...in GURU Nanak Jis time...what would be such "*Filthy wailings*"...and i guess that would be the popular love ballads Heer Ranjha sassee punnu mirza sahiban etc etc...AND IF those seem like FILTHY WAILS to Guru Ji...JUST IMAGINE what Words Guru Ji would use IF he heard one of Miss POOJA's SONGS..or  watched Diljeet Video..or saw Honey Singh singing Lukk twenty eight kurree dadhh..punjabi kurrian second hand maal ah....i SHUDDERED..*.EVEN GURU JI would be LOST FOR WORDS *!!!   *SIMPLY SPEECHLESS *!!!..esp since in comparison to miss pooja diljeet or honey Mirza sahiban or Heer Waris Shah or damodars Heer.. is supposedly Cultural and Punjabi Heritage..blah blah  and family story...see how TIMES have CHANGED....  TODAY even Eminent RAGIS whsoe sole Profession is RAAG and Original Vaars of Gurbani..are saying more and more frequently that Original raags of SGGS sound so "pathetic..slow..not catchy at all..and youngsters dont like them...thats is AKIRTGHANNTA of the Highest Order..Guru Ji made the PERFECT SUMEL of RAAG+SHABAD...one is the Body the other the SOUL...BOTH run like twin wheels of a vehicle...in harmony and tandem...one cannot separate one form the other...
SIKHS have to wake UP and feel the pulse of the new generation...we need to go back to our ROOTS...GURBANI in ORIGINAL RAAG..NO COMPROMISES.


----------



## manbir (Sep 2, 2012)

Very rightly said Gyani ji. 
We Sikhs need to wake up from a Deep Slumber ! Its is not the fault of our youngsters. The fault lies squarely on the Raagis of today and yesteryears!

If our Raagis say that people do not like Gurbani Keertan in Raags. The fault lies with the raagis. It is their capacity of singing in raags that is deficient !


----------



## Admin (Sep 2, 2012)

SukhmeetSingh Guruwada said:


> Bani Sunnan Naal v bande da mann Saaf hunda hai...
> 
> Ate fer apo aap usch Bani Samjan di Surat Ho Jandi hai..
> 
> dat wat i thnk



Sukhmeet Singh Ji

To remove  any language barriers while contemplating, the official language of SPN  is spoken English. The members at SPN include many readers, who have  virtually no background on reading/understanding Gurumukhi or Punjabi  language. Being a responsible member, avoid posting only  Gurumukhi/Punjabi text in your posts.

Next time we would have no option but to delete such posts.

Thank you for your understanding and consideration!


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 2, 2012)

First the Raagis picked up the Vaaja (harmonium) from the DUNG HEAP ( see this instrument is 100% present at ******khana dances..street beggars use it...its the worst instrument ever..Court Dance sessions, dancing girls sessions, etc etc...qwalis also use this vaaja 100%...

Then they DROPPED COMPLETELY the Original raags of SGGS and prefer to play ONLY  simplified  FILMY TUNES...Raagis even at PINNACLE of SIKHI darbar sahib Amritsar rely 99% on VAAJA ONLY and those who can play the stringed instruments or Original Raags are MINISCULE IN NUMBER.....and such KACHEY RAAGEES are being wholesale EXPORTED all over..and since they KNOW NOTHING exceptionally GOOD..they concentrate more on DRESS..tying matching pugghs cholas and rival each other trying to out do like ENTERTAINERS..not Gurmatt Raagis..

Then they turn around and tell us.."what" we need/want is what they have ( NOTHING).
Everyoen seesm to be telling us SIKHS what we need/want....

1. The kachah Derawallah Brahmgyani tells us..YOU DONT NEED to read Gurbani..we will do it for you..just PAY us..we will do the needful...

2 The kacha Ragi tells us..enjoy this Filmy Kirtan...true raag is boring...

3. The kacha Kathawachak tells us..Gurbani is too difficult to learn..just listen to my SUPERFICIAL meanings..simple and easy...be entertained by my sakhis, tall tales, waddeh abbaji miracles....

4. The Kacha pathi tells us..I will do the paath  ardass..just pay and go home...everything will be OK...

5. The Dhaarna dhadriwallah types tell us..sing along with me MIRZA STYLE Asa di vaar...the regular one is boring and old hat... Gurbani is so difficult..two liner JINGLES are so easy to follow..and even if you make a mistake...Guru ji wont be "angry" because its NOT GURBANI....ha ha ha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tVrDUm_LXKI


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 2, 2012)

Gyaniji

many thanks for your link, I did listen to it, it was serene and peaceful, it was not as hard as studying the written word, you have to use your brain for that, it was more pleasurable than studying, it left me feeling peaceful and calm, but I would be lying if I said I had learnt anything.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 2, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gyaniji
> 
> many thanks for your link, I did listen to it, it was serene and peaceful, it was not as hard as studying the written word, you have to use your brain for that, it was more pleasurable than studying, it left me feeling peaceful and calm, but I would be lying if I said I had learnt anything.



Harry Ji..
most welcome jios.
on the Internet also there are pearls and jewels to be found..if we only take the trouble to look...similar to the pearls in SGGS..we have to work at finding them..PIO DADDEH da KHOL dittah Khazanah...Enjoy Gurmatt Gian Kirtan Blog.Any further questions can be addressed to Manbir Singh ji our member as well.


----------



## Ishna (Sep 2, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Gyaniji
> 
> many thanks for your link, I did listen to it, it was serene and peaceful, it was not as hard as studying the written word, you have to use your brain for that, it was more pleasurable than studying, it left me feeling peaceful and calm, but I would be lying if I said I had learnt anything.


 
The same thing happens to me at Gurdwara during kirten - they repeat the same line over and over but it's like 'keep reading other lines!!'.


----------



## Harry Haller (Sep 3, 2012)

Sisji

I have a mental vision of Oliver asking for more porridge lol

Oliver - please sir i want some more      - YouTube


----------



## Ishna (Sep 3, 2012)

lol lol


----------



## Admin (Sep 3, 2012)

Are we eager enough to fetch a glass of  water to quench our thirst or we just stay where ever we are and expect  the glass of water come to us. Practically, the result is obvious, we  will be disappointed... dis-illusioned... it would make more sense to first read and  understand the Shabad and then listen to it... it will surely make much  more sense...


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 3, 2012)

Aman Singh said:


> Are we eager enough to fetch a glass of  water to quench our thirst or we just stay where ever we are and expect  the glass of water come to us. Practically, the result is obvious, we  will be disappointed... dis-illusioned... it would make more sense to first read and  understand the Shabad and then listen to it... it will surely make much  more sense...




merely listening without understanding is kann rass..just entertainment...like sound of falling water...


----------



## linzer (Sep 3, 2012)

Harryji,
the S.G.G.S is in verse to be sung. It's easier to remember that way. Do you ever wake up in the morning with a song in your head? You remember the word without even trying.This happens to me all the time. 
I'll make this even harder on you than your family. Not only* should* you listen to Gurbani Kirtan you *should *sing it as well.( sorry I just could pass up the use of should).Guruji has too many references to song to list but these are a couple.
<TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 270, Line 19
ਆਪਿ ਗਾਵਾਏ ਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਉ ॥
आपि गावाए सु हरि गुन गाउ ॥
Āp gāvā▫ai so har gun gā▫o.
Those, whom He inspires *to sing*, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.
*Guru Arjan Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 305, Line 18
ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵੈ ਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
फिरि चड़ै दिवसु गुरबाणी गावै बहदिआ उठदिआ हरि नामु धिआवै ॥
Fir cẖaṛai ḏivas gurbāṇī gāvai bahḏi▫ā uṯẖ▫ḏi▫ā har nām ḏẖi▫āvai.
Then, at the rising of the sun, he is *to sing* Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.
*Guru Ram Das* </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Here in central Mexico we don't have a lot of Raagis wandering around loose, so we sing our own kirtan. A good portion of the members of our Gurdwara sing . I'm learning tabla and Dilruba. My wife is learning harmonium and rebab and we both sing a little. Between us we have about a timble full of talent but the important thing is to try. 
Before the phonograph was invented most people had to make there own music.
I think people have gotten lazy.


----------



## Rory (Sep 3, 2012)

harry haller said:
			
		

> I have a mental vision of Oliver asking for more porridge


It was gruel. Porridge would have been a delicacy.
:sippingcoffeemunda:


----------



## Ishna (Sep 3, 2012)

Most references to singing are metaphorical. As in, following hukam. Else how does a solar system sing? (ref So Dar)


----------



## Chaan Pardesi (Sep 3, 2012)

Very little truth is known abt Rag mala!Guru Nanak's Mission is based upon logical search of the TRUTH.There is no place for rituals and farcial beliefs in Sikhism.

Guru Ji, logically challenged the age old beliefs of the hindus such as casteism, yag, bathing in rivers etc.THose who came to the sanctuary of the Guru became his followers, to search the TRUTH logically.They were called disciples-Sikhs.However, there were some who liked the Gurus' teachings but were unable to distinguish them from the prevalent religion of the masses.Some hindus also felt the new religion to be a challenge to their age old practice.Persons of these two categories either out of ignorance or intentionally distorted historical facts and even tempered with Gurus writings.

It is common sight to see couplets such as 'Nanak Nivan Jo challe, laage Na tati vao' on the backs of the lorries in India.This is the testimoney of the Kachi bai, wwhich still prevails despite warnings of Guru Amar Das ji during his life time.

An uninitiated Sikh gets confused whether such couplets are GURBANI.Many ignorant Sikhs have been heard to ask the reference of this couplet from Sri Guru Granth sahib.

So much so SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB was tempered with either by an unidentified ignorant Sikh or an jealous hindu who appended RAAG MALA without care to how much damage it will cause to the Sikh masses in general in time to come.

This appendix has created a long term controversy that still remains unresolved, despite it being reasoned out that RAAGMALA is NOT GURBANI.RAAG MALA IS NOT GURBANI.

A majority of the Sikh scholars opine that Ragmala has no themetic coherance with Gurbani BUT sadly...those with illogical blind faith consider it to be integral to Sri Guru Granth sahib merely because it is printed at the end of it!

However, the Panth at large, has decided that RAAGMALA is ...NOT... the word of the GURUS!It is NOT the word of the Gurus.It has been instructed that a bhog be performed after Mundhavni Mehla 5 and Shalok 5.

Sikhism is under constant threat of immersion into the Hindu faith by hindu fanatics as they do not seem able to tolerate a separate entity of the Sikhs.Many , many historians have already warned the Sikhs about this hostility and underlying hindunization attempts towards Sikhism.For instance as far back as 1899, even a non Sikh writer Max Arthur MacCaulfe declared in the preface of His book-The History of the Sikhs that "a movement to declare the Sikhs as Hinuds in direct opposition to the teachings of the Gurus is widespread for a long duration, even among the ignorant self declared Sikhs with no knowledge and those fools who believe that Sikhs are off shoots of Hinduism".

Sikhs must counter this anti Sikh propoganda with clear understanding , a proper understanding of the historical perspectives in Sikhism.We NEED to study VAST literature to come to appropriate conclusions and liberate ourselves from those who are misrepresenting Sikhism, and out to malign Sikhs, and confuse the Sikhs and Guru writings and teachings!


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 3, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Most references to singing are metaphorical. As in, following hukam. Else how does a solar system sing? (ref So Dar)



THAT Happens when HUMANS try to "accommodate/fit" the CREATOR into the tiny boxes we think are HUGE !!

SING....a human believes only a HUMAN :MOUTH" can SING...Birds sing, dogs sing, crows song, donkeys sing..elephants sing, wasps sing..bees sing..dolphins sing...

When Manmohan "SINGS" sonias TUNE..or "Dances" to Sonias TUNE..there is actually no singing/dancing involved...Manmohan ji is doing somewhat what the SUN does to the Creators TUNE...go round and round and round...or what the earth does..go round and round and corcle the Sun in 365.25 days..he he..thats also SINGING and DANCING as PER GURBANI...lots of such going on...

When the Solar system STOPS Singing..our songs also STOP. he he..we just need to have the GRAVITY stop SINGING..and we all disintegrate immediately...


----------



## linzer (Sep 7, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> merely listening without understanding is kann rass..just entertainment...like sound of falling water...


While I agree that the point of Gurbani is to understand and apply it's meaning to your life. I have to say that if people listened to gurbani kirtan as entertainment they'd be much better of than things like this.

http://thefw.com/honey-boo-boo-child-moments

```

```


----------

