# Post From A Different Forum On Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism



## Kamala (Feb 28, 2012)

I came eupon a post from a different forum and want to know what you guys think.. by no means am I trying to get the origonal poster in trouble and if you have a small mind please do not read the following:



> *Warning: The Tat Khalsa Sikhs may want to skip reading this post.*
> 
> It was a personal quest to learn about the Hindu-Sikh acrimony which  led me to gather the following information. It is by no means meant to  hurt or disrespect anyone, and the Tat Khalsa Sikhs should heed the  above warning. Also, the interested readers may access more information  at the two links provided below, and from additional material available  on the internet, to draw their own conclusions.
> 
> ...


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 29, 2012)

> The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum.



That leads to a question, what do we need Hindu deities for when we have Guru Granth Sahib?



> All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed.



You mean the Hindu Nationalist Movement? We know how popular Sikhs like Bhagat Singh were!



> Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity;



Sikhi believes in unity of humanity not philosophy. But we wish to keep our precious philosophy as Pure and True as possible.



> Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity



That was kick started by Guru Nanak and brought to life by Guru Gobind Singh.



> Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed.



Schools need to change the hired teachers when the kids are not scoring well.



> To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued.



I think as people mature, they need simpler homes!



> In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.



That was probably to make more room for the sangat as the main hall of Darbar Sahib is not so big!



> They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity.



It is not must, Sikhs have a separate identity, something you will never understand, you are like standing on India Pakistan border, and you don't wana move from there.



> They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature



Guru Granth Sahib has the penship and blessings of Ten Human Gurus. 



> This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today



And the article throwing this up means they have a big problem that Sikhs continue to think of themselves as NOT Hindu. It is as if we want this last 2% of the Indian population to be Hindu too. First get the 20% muslims into the fold!



> Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.



Sikhism has no sects. And many of these don't consider them to be Sikh sects at all. Why do you want to glue the two together? Do you have too much free time?



> It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine.



A devotee with all the respect, reverence and faith cannot make own mind divine. Making a stone idol divine is very hard to come by. 



> The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable.



Sikhs have devotion towards Guru Granth Sahib only. Hindus are there to pray to Ram and Krishan. Neither of the followers make them worship able. 



> For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.



The laptop with which I am writing all this has the same divine force as the murti or anything. What all should I pray to? Guru Granth Sahib has not only the divine force, but Knowledge, which comes only to a chosen few. It seems Kamala ji that you and I are not to be blessed with such insight, for we are trying to help each other out here.

But after reading this post, if you still continue to sell the advantages of being a Hindu-Sikh, I can only say you must be very good at sales.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 29, 2012)

KAMLA Ji,
You should realise the teachings of SGGS ji and then you can decide the scope of any such deities along with SGGS .
In fact NANAKs teachings are all related to tell what these dieties actually meant and what is the REAL MURATi one should worship.Try to know this MURATi which NANAK is mentioning in SGGS ji.
Once yu become familiar with this MURATi as envisaged in SGGS all your confusions go away.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Feb 29, 2012)

Some may agree, many will disagree. But none of us should be ignorant and ignore.

The sanaatanists seem to be very concerned in giving sikhism a repackaged identity with hindu fundamentals. This is the impression I get.

For the upcoming youth of today, they need to be made aware about the pure undiluted sikhism before they experience other messages.

This movement seems to be on the rise as they have even influenced some so called Nihangs (fake nihangs). These fake nihangs are also promoting sanaatanism by giving acknowledgement to bhang, alcohol, meat and idol worship.
Getting the young youth in this manner can be easier as drinking, clubbing, partying, extra-marital relationships and drug use can be glamourised and justified.
The young youth can easily tag along convincing themselves that it's just a line of sikhism and not quite a classic sect.

We all need to forward our views, my opinion may be wrong and extreme.
But, I feel that their movement too, appears extreme. Correct me and I apologise if any offence is caused.

I firmly believe that Sikhi belongs to the Guru and the Guru only, not hindus,muslims, other faiths, goups or individuals.

*I also firmly believe that none of us have the right to decide or dictate what Sikhi is, only the Guru decides what is sikhi. Following the Guru Granth Sahib Ji it can be attained*.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 29, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Some may agree, many will disagree. But none of us should be ignorant and ignore.
> 
> The sanaatanists seem to be very concerned in giving sikhism a repackaged identity with hindu fundamentals. This is the impression I get.
> 
> ...


 

So wshould listen to GuRu about Sikhi from SGGS.
GuRu ji is saying about Sikhi as
"Sikhi Sikhiya GuR Sabadu Vichari"
Nothing more nothing less than this .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kamala (Feb 29, 2012)

But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.


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## Parma (Feb 29, 2012)

No, sikhism is its own identity to believe in absolute truth, to be pure of the mind, the body and the soul. Nothing else. A firm word to all practicing sikhs that I learnt from Sant singh Maskeen ji. What a great thinker. You are not here to tell them the Katha you are here to just do the katha. Sing it with love how many people stop what they are doing and listen to love songs on the T.V. It captures you its self you cant make people listen to you, you cant make someone love you so why should god. If people want to listen the truth gets into there mind its self, that is not for you to tell them, how do you know that persons way, every persons way, "journey's" are all different some born in poverty others with a silver spoon. If they ask what a word means explain the word. The journey is between god and the individual. God will teach you your own way to him... Waheguru. Just like the love songs of today, sing the glorious words of the gurbani with love.japposatnamwaheguru:
Pure of the mind body and soul. Absolute truth even if that means people call me names whatever, no one is born perfect. We are sikh and as such life is a learning curb, who gives a toss what people call you just be truthful no matter what. A kid steals mother asks him did you steal he says yes, gets a smack and when he does wrong again she asks did you do it he says yes and gets a smack. He doesn't learn not to tell the truth! He just learns not to do it again, that is how open to truth you should be stand up for your convictions no matter what. God made you a sikh, you will hopefully with time, in your own time, through the grace of waheguru in your own way learn. Atleast you then dont hide from the truth you then are apart of the truth


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 29, 2012)

Kamala said:


> But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.


 
There is no concept of being any Sanatan Sikh   .Sanatan word has never been used anywhere in any referennce in Gurbanee.So refering a Sikh as Sanatan is your assumption.
GuRu ji wishes everyone to be GuRMukh only .This you can veryfy from SGGS.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 29, 2012)

Not scholarly verified but it appears merger has not been accepted by Kamala ji for the two factions of Sikhs that seeing the damage from Arya Samajis merged way back in 1890s (_122 years ago or at least 5 to 6 generations of SIkhs_),



> [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The original founders of the Singh Sabha Movement were sanatan or ‘Traditional’ Sikhs believing that the paanth certainly consisted of the followers of the Gurus, but had no problem with the Hindu traditions that were creeping in. There were the Sabha of Amritsar of 1873.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The radical Sikhs were the Tat Khalsa centred at Lahore. For the Tat Khalsa it was impossible to be a Hindu and A Sikh, as those of the Sanatan persuasion maintained. The only correct style for a Sikh was that of a Khalsa and although they did not cast out the non-Khalsa variety, they explicitly adopted the view that those non-Khalsa Sikhs were on there way to becoming fully fledged Sikh. In other words they were said to be aspiring to become members of the Khalsa, that is they were Sehaj-dhari ‘s or slow learners.[/FONT]
> 
> ...


Hindu/Sikh adherence disappeared from Sikhs in 1890s. Any comments or are we trying to restart old fights!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

So the question forms on identity... When Guru Gobind Singh ji stood in his congregation to initiate the khalsa, what did he ask them.. At the time sikhs were being persecuted quite badly people begining to lose faith.. So he questions the congregation.. Who believes in the truth?.... Many people raise their hands... Who believes I am speaking the truth?... Many people raise their hands again but not so much as the first time, as there is doubt due to all the persecution from the kings at the time... Who is willing to die for the truth... Many people raise there hands again but still the numbers are fewer than the previous... Now he ask's who is willing to give their head to me in the name of truth.... Only one raises the hand out of the congregation. They are then summoned and the rest is history on the initiation of khalsa. He did not ask the congregation do you like this dress code, do you like this club association. The 5 beloved were from the congregation at the time representing humanity as it was back then raw, which were all types not what the definition has been made now. They were made to stand up for and protect absolute truth for humanity not just a Singh 5k's definition of today's sikhism. It was made for the entire humanity. The definition of khalsa is the one who stands up for the truth absolute, whether you do that wearing a 3 piece suite, or full tradition attire the outcome is the same. The khalsa is not definied by a dress code. It is definied by the truth, whether that is a keshdari sikh, nirankari sikh or whatever sikh. It is a basis for humanity the way it is. We are to be defined by God and the truth nothing else


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2012)

Parma said:


> So the question forms on identity... When Guru Gobind Singh ji stood in his congregation to initiate the khalsa, what did he ask them.. At the time sikhs were being persecuted quite badly people begining to lose faith.. So he questions the congregation.. Who believes in the truth?.... Many people raise their hands... Who believes I am speaking the truth?... Many people raise their hands again but not so much as the first time, as there is doubt due to all the persecution from the kings at the time... Who is willing to die for the truth... Many people raise there hands again but still the numbers are fewer than the previous... Now he ask's who is willing to give their head to me in the name of truth.... Only one raises the hand out of the congregation. They are then summoned and the rest is history on the initiation of khalsa. He did not ask the congregation do you like this dress code, do you like this club association. The 5 beloved were from the congregation at the time representing humanity as it was back then raw, which were all types not what the definition has been made now. They were made to stand up for and protect absolute truth for humanity not just a Singh 5k's definition of today's sikhism. It was made for the entire humanity. The definition of khalsa is the one who stands up for the truth absolute, whether you do that wearing a 3 piece suite, or full tradition attire the outcome is the same. The khalsa is not definied by a dress code. It is definied by the truth, whether that is a keshdari sikh, nirankari sikh or whatever sikh. It is a basis for humanity the way it is. We are to be defined by God and the truth nothing else


 
The Khalsa is not defined by the dress code. Agreed.
But Khalsa is certainly recgnised by 5 Ks.This forms the real Identity of Khalsa belonging to GuRu Gobind Singh Ji.
In fact there should have been either Khalsa Sikhs as SINGH or Sikhs only.
Refering Sikh as Keshdhari/Nirankari or other is a deviation from being Sikh.
These deviations do nothing good for the overall concept of Sikh.These deviations are only diluting the Sikh philosophy .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

All I know is I believe in the truth of the Guru Granth Sahib. The rest I can not say to be the truth. Too many issues with the 5 k's... Don't cut your hair but you can cut your nails. Could all be propaganda from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Raj. Not to mention it is not mentioned in the eternal Guru the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also people in Guru Gobinds congregation at the time would not have been Singh's before they were baptized what were they? Bramhins maybe with bold heads how you gona tell one them to wear a kanga? Singh's were created after baptisim. Anyway if it helps you become more of a defined person in your self great but it should not be the, be all and end all of Sikhism. Remember the 5 k's theory came along time after Sikhism was born. Too many question, that remain unanswered?:noticemunda:
Pure of the mind body and soul I guess, How do you define a pure body? This argument is not meant to be won an argument for the individual between god and yourself!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2012)

Parma said:


> All I know is I believe in the truth of the Guru Granth Sahib. The rest I can not say to be the truth. Too many issues with the 5 k's... Don't cut your hair but you can cut your nails. Could all be propaganda from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Raj. Not to mention it is not mentioned in the eternal Guru the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also people in Guru Gobinds congregation at the time would not have been Singh's before they were baptized what were they? Bramhins maybe with bold heads how you gona tell one them to wear a kanga? Singh's were created after baptisim. Anyway if it helps you become more of a defined person in your self great but it should not be the, be all and end all of Sikhism. Remember the 5 k's theory came along time after Sikhism was born. Too many question, that remain unanswered?:noticemunda:
> Pure of the mind body and soul I guess, How do you define a pure body? This argument is not meant to be won an argument for the individual between god and yourself!


 
I fully appreciate your views.I too have similar views. But how many are there in line with this view you may know yourself.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Mar 1, 2012)

> The definition of khalsa is the one who stands up for the truth absolute, whether you do that wearing a 3 piece suite


 
Parma Ji I agree Khalsa has been absolved by Truth but even so it is very difficult to wear a 3 piece suite, as that would mean wearing a sofa and two chairs,maybe you meant wearing a 3 piece suit.


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## BaljinderS (Mar 1, 2012)

What nonsense.  Some people will never stop.  I wonder, why?  Are they not happy and peace with themselves? 

If Sikhs don't wake up and learn about history, culture and what gurbani is telling us then we will carry on falling for this kind of trap and face humiliation.

Even if you have the slightest belief that this article has some truth in it then make it your mission to educate yourself, your family, your relatives and non Sikhs with the truth.


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## Kamala (Mar 1, 2012)

The thing I wonder is, why would the murtis even be in HariMandir in the first place...


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Mar 1, 2012)

It is HarMandir not Hari Mandir  of course you would be aware of that Kamala ji


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

Anyone that is looking for complete truth can not deny the truth... ha ha yeah 3 pc suit. Comment to baljinder people can never stop because the process is of truth. If I dont do it some one else will until the truth is out. Sikhism is defined that way human nature is defined that way. How would you like it if your mom had been telling you lies all your life, then you realise ha ha ha Only joking but you know what i am getting at, without truth there is no faith. Simple. Where is the historical fact evidence to counter act these questions?japposatnamwaheguru:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> It is HarMandir not Hari Mandir  of course you would be aware of that Kamala ji


 
Well,the correct word is HARi Mandir. There seems to be problem when we write any Gurmukhi wordin Roman we eliminate the matra of Sihari with the last letter of the word.This is for your obsevation pl.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2012)

Parma said:


> Anyone that is looking for complete truth can not deny the truth... ha ha yeah 3 pc suit. Comment to baljinder people can never stop because the process is of truth. If I dont do it some one else will until the truth is out. Sikhism is defined that way human nature is defined that way. How would you like it if your mom had been telling you lies all your life, then you realise ha ha ha Only joking but you know what i am getting without truth there is no faith. Simple. Where is the historical fact evidence to counter act these questions?japposatnamwaheguru:


 
Can you pl write for information of every one  What is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH in SGGS .?This information will clear so many questions we are involved in.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

What do you mean by what is the truth in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji brother. The Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a whole is the truth!:swordfight-kudiyan:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2012)

Parma said:


> What do you mean by what is the truth in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji brother. The Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a whole is the truth!:swordfight-kudiyan:


 
Sorry to say if I am wrong,There can be only ONE ABSOLUTE TRUTH all over the Universe.That is what I learn from Gurbanee .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Mar 1, 2012)

The truth is Ek Onkar. This is the past,present and future. It always was, is, and will remain the truth. It is at the begiinning of the Guru Granth Sahib and the whole Guru Granth Sahib stems from this.

Ek Onkar Satnaam


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## Luckysingh (Mar 1, 2012)

Kamala said:


> The thing I wonder is, why would the murtis even be in HariMandir in the first place...


 
You don't need to wonder.
You should ask, who were the authorities at the times when the murtis were put there ??
The answer to this should also answer 'why were they put there in 1st place'


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

What MR Ambarsaria> Your saying i am childish and your the one throwing insults. Mate take a look at that first, for your own personal beliefs and what you follow. You follow nothing sikh what have you developed into another bin laden? MR I see you are upset with the comments but if that is the case disprove them with knowledge which you have a limited supply of and so you claim yourself to be a sikh without even knowing what a sikh is! Just because the temple has always done somthing does not mean it is wright. The temple has always had in the past gurudwara's open 24/7, they do not do that now is that wright? Mr Your probably connected up to an orthadox approach that wont budge like a rock, because it is comfortable and probably pays you well. P.s. Rocks always get smashed in the end. MR Follow whatever you want, it is not even your or my argument. This is the argument of Truth. In the end that is all that will last many religions have gone, many religions will come only the truth will last. People always persecute people that tell the truth it has happend with our guru's and it will happen through out time, because people dont listen it is gods game only he will show you the way... Say what you want about me I dont really care i will still speak the truth whether you like it or not. You can not kill the truth, you may as well just smack yourself as the truth exsits in you aswell, that is if the truth angers you! :swordfight-kudiyan: Advice Dont be angry with the truth, you will not win.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 1, 2012)

> *Let us see signs of someone trully on real or virtual payroll of elements anti-Sikh:* Uses logic to make Sikhs as Hindus; makes Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as though a rehash of Hindu scriptures; tries to create confusion and opens up issues closed for centuries; opens up rituals clealy destroyed by Guru ji as having little to no value; uses Grammar/spellings/Accents to link words to other religion's scriptures; starts making Sikhs as the guilty party; encourages excessive introspection; starts attacking few heroes that Sikhs may have; etc.
> 
> Perhaps we can all add more and be on the guard.
> 
> Let me know which ones belong to me!


 
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

People you can see I tried to be sensible this guys just a turd! So here we go to your level dude!
I am humbled that you have compared me with big personalities and influencers! 
*So you agree your a muslim? That is the joke a sikh as a muslim wanna be!*

Veer ji where did you learn your Sikhi which gave you the licence to criticize the only Ruler/King of Sikhs whose rule would have put to shame any of the rulers in India since 1947.
*What you need a licence to talk about Maharaja Ranjit Singh? Now your making a bit more sense, I knew you were making money somehow money grabbing singh!*

Brother the people who used the "truth" word in sentences usually end up with less of it. You perhaps don't see me using much but if you want to use it I have no problem. What is it that you have defined as "truth"?
*Obviously you dont like the comments so the truth is whatever you dont agree with simple! You are Bin laden number 2!*

So sir it is not insulting to say to Sikhs cut your hair brcause you cut your nails! Tell me what would you answer be to a child vis-a-vis "nails and hair" as you claim to be a SIkh who knows the truth.
*Get off your high horse man. The guru's themselves broke pakand, who is the person that introduced them to sikhism, not my fault if people are following stuff that dont make sense. If it hurts you so much, make sense of it. Otherwise shut your mouth and carry on. Simple!*

*P/s if I get an infarction its your fault:grinningsingh:*


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

I have always wondered a few other things why is there no real pictures of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Hari Singh Naluwa, they were kings of india. There empire spread up to Iran. The Iranians must have been scared that a sikh kingdom never comes again, they must have had a few fights with sikhs never heard of any? Why have the Iranians got a kanda on their flag? Do the muslims really want to inspire sikhs to be like muslims, an thats why they inflame extreamism! Is this forum funded by iranians, why do they wear big beards and turbans that look like the 5 k's are they slowly but cleverly destroying sikhs between them and the british what choice have the sikhs got! Seriously a pause for thought! It Could be a over reaction, and an over statement then again, who knows?:interestedkudi:


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 1, 2012)

There are many real pictures of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa and of Sikhs and Gurus that came before them.

The Iranians do not have a Khanda on their flag.


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## Parma (Mar 1, 2012)

they have somthing similar. I have never seen a real painting. Not one that has been officialy varified. They say they have picture of Nalwa but the ones shown on the net they also say could be fake. Would you be so kind to post Originals?


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 1, 2012)

Photography was not available then but paintings are certainly there. Maharaja Ranjit Singh has also been painted by Europeans so having that source combined with the Indian paintings is awesome.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 1, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Photography was not available then but paintings are certainly there. Maharaja Ranjit Singh has also been painted by Europeans so having that source combined with the Indian paintings is awesome.


Bhagat Singh ji you ascribe the following to Guru Nanak Dev ji,



> The intellect of the mind is like a drunken elephant. Whatever one utters is totally false, the most false of the false. - Guru Nanak


 Can you please provide reference sabad?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Luckysingh (Mar 1, 2012)

Parma said:


> I have always wondered a few other things why is there no real pictures of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Hari Singh Naluwa, they were kings of india. There empire spread up to Iran. The Iranians must have been scared that a sikh kingdom never comes again, they must have had a few fights with sikhs never heard of any? Why have the Iranians got a kanda on their flag? Do the muslims really want to inspire sikhs to be like muslims, an thats why they inflame extreamism! Is this forum funded by iranians, why do they wear big beards and turbans that look like the 5 k's are they slowly but cleverly destroying sikhs between them and the british what choice have the sikhs got! Seriously a pause for thought! It Could be a over reaction, and an over statement then again, who knows?:interestedkudi:


Parma ji 
You seem to have an obsession with Bin Laden and Iranians- all looking like sikhs because they have turbans and beards!!
I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say.
Being a sikh, there is no way  one could mistake themselves for being a taliban.
This forum can't be funded by Iranians. Maybe Iraqis, Saddams lot, would make more sense!!!!!He had more disposable cash.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 1, 2012)

That awesome shabad is on page 351.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> The truth is Ek Onkar. This is the past,present and future. It always was, is, and will remain the truth. It is at the begiinning of the Guru Granth Sahib and the whole Guru Granth Sahib stems from this.
> 
> Ek Onkar Satnaam


 
You say it as EK ONKAR others say it as IK ONKAR 
In Gurbanee we get as EKANKAAR
So what should be the real Truth.?
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 2, 2012)

Prakash ji is there is a reason why we need to worry about whether it is Ek Oankar, Ik Oankar or Ekankar?

I think Ek Oankar is teh same as Ik Oankar. 

I think Ekankar is simply Ek Oankar *written as one word*. Ek Oankar is two words and there is no other way to write it as one, except to combine them write it as Ekankar. Why anyone would want to write Ek Oankar as one word Ekankar is not clear to me. 

Now Gurbani uses both Oankar and Ekankar, it uses one or the other. Interesting to note that while Bhagat Kabir ji and the Gurus both use Oankar, Ekankar is always used solely by the Gurus. No other Bhagat or Brahmin Bard uses Ekankar (or Oankar for that matter, only Bhagat Kabir ji uses Oankar). We also never see "Ek Oankar" in a sentence in it's written form, except in the form of Ekankar.

Cheers


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## Luckysingh (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> You say it as EK ONKAR others say it as IK ONKAR
> In Gurbanee we get as EKANKAAR
> So what should be the real Truth.?
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
It is *ੴ, *
*ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ*

I think the message is truthful enough. We don't want to be wasting time on grammar and sihari or bihari in pronouncations.
Remember- there are only 26 letters in english language with '5 vowels.
No sihari bihari, so lets stop messing about, you know the message.

Ek Onkar
Satnaam


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Prakash ji is there is a reason why we need to worry about whether it is Ek Oankar, Ik Oankar or Ekankar?
> 
> I think Ek Oankar is teh same as Ik Oankar.
> 
> ...


 
Your observation is correct.
Is it not important to know what is what and why to know about the real truth being conveyed in Gurbanee.?
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 2, 2012)

Ah ok. I get what is what but don't know why. Any ideas?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> It is *ੴ, *
> *ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ*
> 
> I think the message is truthful enough. We don't want to be wasting time on grammar and sihari or bihari in pronouncations.
> ...


 
The translitration of Gurbanee from Gurmukhi is in ROMAN not in English.
We properly denote all matras other than matras related to u (AUKAD) and i  (sihari). Why so?

In english would you not make any difference in the meanings of the words PENCIL and PENCILS .Grammar should not matter here also.

You feel that grammar is not important  ..No problem ..If you can understand Gurbanee without consideration of Grammar of words .This is still fine .I have no objections to your way of understanding Gurbanee.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ah ok. I get what is what but don't know why. Any ideas?


 
For the time you should take this too as O.K.
I am sure Sati GuRu will bless you to know this why.
Contnue careful reading of Gurbanee.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 2, 2012)

Haha it would help if you gave me another hint. 0


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Haha it would help if you gave me another hint. 0


 
You should make the analysis of different stated words for their respective meanings.I think you may get to it.
I should not go beyond this as this thread is not meant for this issue.
I think you will appreciate my apprehensions.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Your observation is correct.
> Is it not important to know what is what and why to know about the real truth being conveyed in Gurbanee.?
> Prakash.S.Bagga


_Prakash.S.Bagga ji/Bhagat Singh ji I believe we need to watch our posting to keep spn good or even help make spn better.  There is a w__hole thread dedicated to this as well as how this was resolved given the trappings being re-ignited here.  Please have some courtesy to keep threads clean as you are not neophytes at spn.  Here is the thread,_


> *Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Review of ੴ (Ik▫oaŉkār)*
> _ http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37225-sri-guru-granth-sahib-review-ik.html_


_

Just a humble suggestion to remember threads even while wandering other threads.  

Sat Sri Akal._


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Bhagat Singh ji thanks.
> 
> I have posed for you the following two videos as the key word is (mast). So that we cover all angles of Sihari/Bihari one video uses (masti). So enjoy and explain to us how mast/masti means "intoxicated". I know you use what Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji translated, I find it refreshinh to check by self and then decide to follow or not follow and correct,
> 
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> > You are just creating a confusion making use of DEVNAGRI script.  I may correct you here
> >
> > The first word is MASTee (With Bihari) not with Sihari as you have wronly written in english.
> 
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Well ,AMBARSARIA ji your understanding about everything is just excellent.
I am yet to learn a lot from your goodself.
Thanks for your rectification.I am indebted to you for clearing my doubts.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Kamala (Mar 2, 2012)

L0l I still did not get a answer about the murtis..


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

Kamala said:


> L0l I still did not get a answer about the murtis..


_Kamala ji sometimes reality bites Eh!  May be no body felt it was worth responding to.  May be you want to rephrase your post to create excitement and involvement and a subject that people can comment on.  Perhaps read other posts too, may be it is covered in one of these.

Good luck for the next five minutes. I am sure you will be able to make few one line posts and then come back and complain as to nobody responded in a few days.  Prove me wrong please!

Sat Sri Akal.
_


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## Parma (Mar 2, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Parma ji
> You seem to have an obsession with Bin Laden and Iranians- all looking like sikhs because they have turbans and beards!!
> I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say.
> Being a sikh, there is no way one could mistake themselves for being a taliban.
> This forum can't be funded by Iranians. Maybe Iraqis, Saddams lot, would make more sense!!!!!He had more disposable cash.


 
*Brother I am obsessed with the truth. All I want is to get to the bottom of it, before the madness destroy's Sikhism. Look at sikhism now, so many dera's so much Fakeness. Brother do you know the people that destroyed Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Raj Where Sikhs maybe singhs. They back stab each other and no one knows where the truth lies which will have a knock on effect in the faith as well as it is doing now! In Saudia Arabia, Right where Islam is the bedrock of mecca, do you see there dress code, why dont they dress as the Iranians. Brother I stress to you look at the wider picture these small minded rocks want to keep you as a rock it is easier to smash you that way!:interestedmunda:*

*How deluded are you people, you trust the same sikhs and singhs that bought down the Sikh kingdom, Now you trust them with your Faith? No wonder, its a mess!*

*I have said my piece what will be will be!*

*Sat Siri Akal!*


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## Parma (Mar 2, 2012)

:noticemunda:japposatnamwaheguru::swordfight-kudiyan::interestedmunda:welcomemunda:motherlylove:motherlylove:grinningsingh:


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

The flag elements of Israel, Iran and and Khalsa,












Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Parma said:


> *Brother I am obsessed with the truth. All I want is to get to the bottom of it, before the madness destroy's Sikhism. Look at sikhism now, so many dera's so much Fakeness. Brother do you know the people that destroyed Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Raj Where Sikhs maybe singhs. They back stab each other and no one knows where the truth lies which will have a knock on effect in the faith as well as it is doing now! In Saudia Arabia, Right where Islam is the bedrock of mecca, do you see there dress code, why dont they dress as the Iranians. Brother I stress to you look at the wider picture these small minded rocks want to keep you as a rock it is easier to smash you that way!:interestedmunda:*
> 
> *How deluded are you people, you trust the same sikhs and singhs that bought down the Sikh kingdom, Now you trust them with your Faith? No wonder, its a mess!*
> 
> ...


 
There is a saying "Truth usually hurts" that is why people avoid knowing the Truth.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is a saying "Truth usually hurts" that is why people avoid knowing the Truth.
> 
> Prakash.s.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji please post the truth.  Forget about personalities and hurting.  Let us discuss.  It is for the good of Sikhism, the future generations, etc.  Let it be "Nirmal"/pure as it can be.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 3, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
Recall the story of Bhai Bachittar Singh who took on a _Mast Hathi_ in the Battle of Anandpur. This was no special breed of elephant or elephant who had watched bollywood songs . The way to get a _Hathi mast_ is to feed it alcohol. Then you ride it into battle and because it's _mast_, it is becomes more comfortable with killing things in its path. Every war elephant was made intoxicated so it killed more.
Masti does not require intoxicants but a _mast hathi _is one who is intoxicated.

Guru Sahibs says the intellect is like this mast/intoxicated hathi in action (ਮਤਾਗਲੁ ਮਤਾ). The drunken elephant kills and destroys; the elephant thinks it is ok to do so. So anything that comes out of the intellect is like the action of the intoxicated elephant, a sin, a mistake, is erroneous and false. 

One wonders is the intellect naturally like a drunk elephant or does something intoxicate it? Both. What intoxicates the intellect? The answer is Maya. The intellect for many people is entirely dependent on maya. The intellect cannot exist without maya. Afterall, if they are to bring something into their intellect, if they are to comtemplate, they must contemplate some*thing*, some object, some concept, some idea, etc. The intellect is entangled in such things. Once the intellect learns to exist without dependency on some concept, thought, or object then it is said to be sober. Once it untangles itself, then it ceases to be a drunken elephant.


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## Parma (Mar 3, 2012)

"I will make sparrows hunt down hawks; 
I will turn jackals into fierce lions; 
And I will make one single honest soul's fight a legion."



I NEVER FEAR THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So say's my guru's vachaan!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 3, 2012)

Kamala said:


> The thing I wonder is, why would the murtis even be in HariMandir in the first place...


 
The question is wheher there was any Murtis in HariMandir at the time of 
GuRu Arjan Dev Ji?
You must be knowing GuRu Arjan Dev ji Founded HariMandir himself and
Every one nows there were no Murtis that time.
If the Murtis are kept after wards by those people having control over HariMandir Sahib ji then one can definitely think this act as deliberately done to undermine the significance of the sacred place founded by 5th 
Nanak.
I think now you should be clear in your question and find the truth about the Murtis in HariMandir Sahib ji.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Parma (Mar 3, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> The question is wheher there was any Murtis in HariMandir at the time of
> GuRu Arjan Dev Ji?
> You must be knowing GuRu Arjan Dev ji Founded HariMandir himself and
> Every one nows there were no Murtis that time.
> ...


 
Mr Bagga ji. Although you have thanked me a few times in posts and you probably agree with some of my comments. What has murti's got to do with sikhism. That is some hindu approach. My approach is soley independant solely for the truth nothing more or less. Simple. 

Carry on with whatever you feel!:angryyoungsingh:Only the truth will last!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 3, 2012)

Parma said:


> Mr Bagga ji. Although you have thanked me a few times in posts and you probably agree with some of my comments. What has murti's got to do with sikhism. That is some hindu approach. My approach is soley independant solely for the truth nothing more or less. Simple.
> 
> Carry on with whatever you feel!:angryyoungsingh:Only the truth will last!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Well ,PARMAji there is great significance of MURATI  which itself is THE  TRUTH only.We have failed to recognise this MURATi............
I dont know if you have any other TRUTH .?
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Recall the story of Bhai Bachittar Singh who took on a _Mast Hathi_ in the Battle of Anandpur. This was no special breed of elephant or elephant who had watched bollywood songs . The way to get a _Hathi mast_ is to feed it alcohol. Then you ride it into battle and because it's _mast_, it is becomes more comfortable with killing things in its path. Every war elephant was made intoxicated so it killed more.
> Masti does not require intoxicants but a _mast hathi _is one who is intoxicated.
> 
> ...


_Veer Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your explanation.

Let me explain.  When I read the banner line in your profile, I right away thought that someone has tried to link the translation or done the translation having known the following,






Obviously Guru Nanak Dev ji did not have the same exact picture in mind, but not for me to say.

Issues with translations, me included is the coloring of our own thoughts that shows up.  Sometimes it is positive, sometimes it is neutral and other times negative.  So when you posted the Sabad reference I reviewed the Sabad it immediately became clear that it referred to a state of mind and that "Intoxicated" is a very bad word to use for the essence of the sabad pangati.

Hence the clarification posts that followed.  Hope you have recognized by now that "mast" does not imply or mean "intoxicated".  Trust me there has probably been billions of "mast" elephants that had such states without being intoxicated.  *M*__asaṯ__ (ਮਸਤੁ  ਮਸਤ)  is an engrossed, joyful, unperturbed state of being versus the generally foolish and stupidity assigned to those intoxicated, "as per the common usage" of this word in the English language.

_Sat Sri Akal.


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## Parma (Mar 3, 2012)

I see fake people with their corrupt minds hidden behind a smile. A smile so sweet, that it could foul a king to come down from his throne. Away from my presence they whisper venomous words that get deep into the mind of the listeners. Their heart does not pump the blood of love and all they know is hate. The hate breads nothing but hate and sets them onto a path of destruction and failure. Whilst love will always accomplish and conquer all


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 3, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji,
Bhai Bachittar Singh story is only an anecdote. _Mast hathis_ existed before Bhai Bachhittar Singh. Can be traced as far as Hannibal's army back in BC time. That is not the basis for my translation nor the basis for Sant Singh Khalsa, Bhai Manmohan Singh, Prof Sahib Singh and Freed Kote wala teeka. The line that follows is a much stronger base.

Any _mast hathi_ is by definition intoxicated. Now when you read the next line, this is *confirmed*.  Unless you wish to say the mind is like an excited, engrossed hathi. Anything it says is false. Even then the meaning of the translation remains the same. (There are various degees of intoxication, you are obviously talking about "intoxicated to a lesser degree" when you define _masti_.) The intellect of the mind is engrossed in some*thing* (intoxicated to a lesser degree), some concept, some thought, engrossed in maya so anything that comes out of it is false.

I won't make further comments on this issue unless you add something to the discussion.

Cheers


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## Parma (Mar 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Bhai Bachittar Singh story is only an anecdote. _Mast hathis_ existed before Bhai Bachhittar Singh. Can be traced as far as Hannibal's army back in BC time. That is not the basis for my translation nor the basis for Sant Singh Khalsa, Bhai Manmohan Singh, Prof Sahib Singh and Freed Kote wala teeka. The line that follows is a much stronger base.
> 
> Any _mast hathi_ is by definition intoxicated. Now when you read the next line, this is *confirmed*. Unless you wish to say the mind is like an excited, engrossed hathi. Anything it says is false. Even then the meaning of the translation remains the same. (There are various degees of intoxication, you are obviously talking about "intoxicated to a lesser degree" when you define _masti_.) The intellect of the mind is engrossed in some*thing* (intoxicated to a lesser degree), some concept, some thought, engrossed in maya so anything that comes out of it is false.
> ...


 
Bhagat Ji, I was really getting intoxicated with all these elephant stories. I did not realise our religion had so much on elephants? WOW! Why wont you make any further comments things were just getting interesting? Please elaborate further sir as I need to understand this Masti and elephant knowledge.... Thanking you kindly... mundahug Brother, Do we have any other animal stories as well, this is all getting a bit to hindu for me? What do you think?


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 3, 2012)

Sure Parma ji,
We can open a thread to all elephant references in SGGS. There are quite a bit.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Bhai Bachittar Singh story is only an anecdote. _Mast hathis_ existed before Bhai Bachhittar Singh.


Bhagat Singh ji it seems you like to take both sides of the argument by yourself seriously.  You mention Bachittar Singh and when I mention and also mention "billions of MAST Hathi", you claim these too.  Hard to figure out what you stand for?  Your message is incorrect in your banner!

I disagree with you as previously explained.  Your translation is a quote of a translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and hence I cannot debate because it is nothing that you did yourself.  If Dr. Sant Siingh Khalsa was here I would debate him.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 3, 2012)

What are you going on about? 
And it seems you have not even read my posts. Read them carefully before you respond.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 3, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> What are you going on about?
> _And it *seems* you have not even read my posts. Read them carefully before you respond._


Bhagat Singh ji your "seeming" has no control over my responses.  I share what I feel as I feel.  We all have different time spans and times needed to comprehend and we need to respect that.  I see through your posts faster than a hot knife going through butter.  lol

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 3, 2012)

Good for you Ambarsaria ji. kaurhug


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 3, 2012)

a MASTH is a biological hormone produced in a MALE ELEPHANT ...and its SEASONAL...
[SIZE=+2]Musth[/SIZE]​ Bull elephants annually cycle between a state of heightened aggressiveness,    called musth, and non-musth. A musth elephant is primed to mate, and fights    other bull elephants, attacks other animals, and may destroy inanimate objects    in its way. Musth bulls produce a distinctive low-frequency vocalization, the    musth rumble, have thick secretions from their temporal glands (the duct from    the temporal gland opens between the eye and the ear), and continuously dribble    urine. Testosterone levels are at a peak in musth males and probably regulate    this extreme form of reproductive behavior. 
 Legendary "rogue" elephants were probably musth bulls, redirecting    their aggression at random objects, including villages and the people in the    villages.
 Young bulls do not go into musth, and may be inhibited from doing so by older    males. Asian elephant males start their musth cycles by the time they are 20,    but African elephants do not reach this stage of maturity until they are 25    or so years old. 
 Musth has implications for maintenance of captive populations of elephants    in conservation programs. Musth males are unmanageable and extremely hazardous    to elephant handlers.
 Musth is an interesting reproductive strategy. Presumably, males cannot maintain    themselves in this physiological state for extended periods of time. In a sense,    it might be a handicap, as only well-fed, healthy males may be able to physiologically    support the energetic demands of being musth. When more than one bull is in    musth, fights, with risk of serious injury, result. Bulls may adopt a strategy    of avoiding fights by coming into musth out of synchrony with stronger or more    powerful bulls, but female ability to conceive is highly seasonal, so an elephant    whose musth is poorly timed may sire few offspring. Bulls which exhibit off-season    musth are displaying a type of satellite strategy, in which their mating efforts    are peripheral to the main mating competition.


JUST GOOGLE MUSTH/MASTH for more info.


IN GURBANI..the Elephant is mostly an example of a KAAM OBSESSED creature...and MUSTH is exactly THAT.   GRAMMAR...SPELLINGS..and GURBANI "vocabulary" knowledge is vital....as well as deep understanding of PUNJABI language and words...superficial understanding/shallow fishing in deep waters is unproductive...


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 3, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> a MASTH is a biological hormone produced in a MALE ELEPHANT ...and its SEASONAL...
> [SIZE=+2]Musth[/SIZE]​ Bull elephants annually cycle between a state of heightened aggressiveness,    called musth, and non-musth.


_Gyani Jarnail Singh ji thanks for your post.  

The description sends shivers up my spine as Hathi/Elephant in such stage are actually much better at organized annihilation of anything in their way whereas things in "intoxicated" stage can be tripped by a baby__ and generally only make a fool of self.

So Bhagat Singh ji's banner message is a dis-service to what Guru Nanak Dev ji's say in Gurbani.  I recognize it originated from someone else's translation so may be a minor mis-step.

Sat Sri Akal._


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 4, 2012)

The meaning of the word MAST is always a STATE of INTOXICATION. 
There can be several causes for creation of this STATE.
What Giyani ji is mentioning is only one of the cause which is related speific to elephant.
What Gurbanee referes to MAST is the STATE of INTOXICATION created thru NAAMu
In SGGs ji there is a Sabad at pp351 related to this STATe.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 4, 2012)

Here is a complete Sabadas
*Page 351*
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਕਰੇ ਵਖਿਆਣੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੀਆ ਸੇ ਮਸਤ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਤੂਟੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਫਾਹੇ ॥ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਤਾ ਛੋਡੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਲਾਹੇ ॥੨॥ ਸਰਬ ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਨ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਰਾਰੈ ਰੂਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਛਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ ਬੀਣਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਸਬਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਦਿ ਸੋ ਸਹੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੮॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 351}
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 4, 2012)

Gyani ji Awesome. I did not know elephants went through periodic cycles of it. Musth is not a hormore rather, a state induced by hormones. But yeah this is why elephants were used in war. " A musth elephant is primed to mate, and fights other bull elephants, attacks other animals, and may destroy inanimate objects in its way." They would be given alcohol to make them more _mast_.

Prakash ji you are correct. 





			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musth said:
			
		

> The word is derived from Persian مست (mast, pronounced [mæst] in modern Persian), which means "intoxicated"


what is your understanding of that shabad you posted in English?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 4, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Sure Parma ji,
> We can open a thread to all elephant references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There are quite a bit.


 
BHAGAT SINGH ji,

Here is the sabad  you make a reference
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਮੈ ਗੁਣ ਗਲਾ ਕੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰ ॥ ਗਲੀ ਗਲਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥ ਖਾਣਾ ਪੀਣਾ ਹਸਣਾ ਬਾਦਿ ॥ ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਨ ਆਵਹਿ ਯਾਦਿ ॥੧॥ ਤਉ ਪਰਵਾਹ ਕੇਹੀ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਜਨਮਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਲੀਜੀ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਮਤਾਗਲੁ ਮਤਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਖਤੋ ਖਤਾ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਲੈ ਕੀਚੈ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਦੁਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੨॥ ਜੈਸਾ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੈਸਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜੇਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਤੇਹੀ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ ਰਾਗ ਰਤਨ ਪਰੀਆ ਪਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਇਹੁ ਧਨੁ ਮਾਲੁ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 351}

In this sabad.. Mun Ki Mati has been equated with Intoxicated Elephant.

Since Mun Ki Mati is devoid of Gurmati so utterances as per own thinking are like intoxicated elephant.The views presented devoid of Gurmati can be damaging as intoxicated elephant can damage anything iwhen in intoxicated state.
Real intellect mind is one having adopted Gurmati views.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 4, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> The meaning of the word MAST is always a STATE of INTOXICATION.
> There can be several causes for creation of this STATE.
> What Giyani ji is mentioning is only one of the cause which is related speific to elephant.
> What Gurbanee referes to MAST is the STATE of INTOXICATION created thru NAAMu
> ...


Prakash.S.Bagga ji there is nothing more ridiculous rather than to generalize what different words mean in SGGS.  You started with other stuff (GUR, GURu Guroo and it did not go very far) and now you are getting to use the NAAMu distraction.

Can you refer back and search where it was resolved with your participation that NAAMu was a name for "Understanding of creator".  I am sure you are going to deny that you ever agreed with that.  Please stop using distraction smoke bombs.

Show me the logic for the following statement,


> _What Gurbanee referes to MAST is the STATE of INTOXICATION created thru NAAMu_


_How can you possibly relate that to the Elephant.  Is it that now you are starting to believe in metaphors and elephant is NAAMu?__  Please have some respect rather than try to win nothing and desecrate along the way and encourage the young one to follow your mis-steps._

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 4, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga ji there is nothing more ridiculous rather than to generalize what different words mean in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You started with other stuff (GUR, GURu Guroo and it did not go very far) and now you are getting to use the NAAMu distraction.
> 
> Can you refer back and search where it was resolved with your participation that NAAMu was a name for "Understanding of creator". I am sure you are going to deny that you ever agreed with that. Please stop using distraction smoke bombs.
> 
> ...


 
Pl show me where did I write Elephant as Naamu.This is your own creation Pl stop manipulation with Gurbanee words.
If you cant recognise Gurbanee words properly it is your problem not mine.
I cant be held resposible for your misconceptions

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Kamala (Mar 4, 2012)

Well murtis did exist parkash ji. But I have no idea why they would be in the temple if people these days say they were rejected, maybe they were their to show respect for the gods/gurus. I should go to the golden temple one dqay and ask the council this question myself.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 4, 2012)

Kamala said:


> Well murtis did exist parkash ji. But I have no idea why they would be in the temple if people these days say they were rejected, maybe they were their to show respect for the gods/gurus. I should go to the golden temple one dqay and ask the council this question myself.


 
But what I know is that Murtis(if any) were never installed by any of our GuRu ji.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Parma (Mar 4, 2012)

Elephant means Chapati flour?


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## Luckysingh (Mar 4, 2012)

Amusing comment Parm ji, I like that one!!
OK, were going to go off track with the elephant here. 
It's probably going to lead to Ganesh and murtis.:grinningkaur:cheerleader:grinningkaur:

Sat kartar


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Mar 4, 2012)

> I should go to the golden temple one dqay and ask the council this question myself.



Do share how it goes!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 4, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Do share how it goes!!




Judging from the actions of what the "council" (SGPC/Akal takhat) is NOW..I wouldnt be totally surprised IF they readily agreed to kamala jis suggestion and get Mr Makarr or Jathedars to order a truck load of brand new Ganeshas and Hanumans from Bombay asap...So DONT hold your breath kanwaljit Ji...:singhsippingcoffee:.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Mar 4, 2012)

Dum Mast Qalandar Mast Mast      - YouTube


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 4, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Dum Mast Qalandar Mast Mast      - YouTube


sp ji are you suggesting Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is intoxicated or mast or stating about Masty.  We know Muslims don't drink Alcohol (officially) so hopefully it supports the thesis that "Mast" does not imply intoxicated.

Bagga ji and junior Musketeer somehow love the idea of intoxicated Elephants.  You seen any Thekas/Beer-Liquor stores with Elephant line ups.  That would be quite a gas!lol

I know Bagga ji think it is NAAMu that that is intoxicating the Elephants.  I don't know the Alcohol strength of NAAMu!

Sat Sri Akal.  mundahug


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## Luckysingh (Mar 4, 2012)

Kamala said:


> Well murtis did exist parkash ji. But I have no idea why they would be in the temple if people these days say they were rejected, maybe they were their to show respect for the gods/gurus. I should go to the golden temple one dqay and ask the council this question myself.


 
Kamala Ji
It may be easier to phone them or even fax them to get a written response!!
It's a long journey for one question, unless you can astral project like Amarjit ji. He even visted mecca using this technique!!!

The contact details are below, save you a journey.


Contact SGPC, Golden Temple Complex- They should direct you to the appropriate spokesperson
Pbx. : 0183-2553957-58-59 
Fax : 0183-2553919 :noticemunda:
from 9.30am to 4.30 pm every day​ 
Good Luck...peacesign​


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## Parma (Mar 5, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Amusing comment Parm ji, I like that one!!
> OK, were going to go off track with the elephant here.
> It's probably going to lead to Ganesh and murtis.:grinningkaur:cheerleader:grinningkaur:
> 
> Sat kartar


 
*See bother, so now you realise without the approach of TRUTH it all becomes non-sense!*
*icecreammunda:motherlylove:*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 5, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> sp ji are you suggesting Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is intoxicated or mast or stating about Masty. We know Muslims don't drink Alcohol (officially) so hopefully it supports the thesis that "Mast" does not imply intoxicated.
> 
> Bagga ji and junior Musketeer somehow love the idea of intoxicated Elephants. You seen any Thekas/Beer-Liquor stores with Elephant line ups. That would be quite a gas!lol
> 
> ...


 
Here is a Sabad for you to realise the power of intoxication of NAAMu

ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਅਲਮਸਤੁ ਮਤਵਾਰਾ ॥ 

हरि रसु पीवै अलमसतु मतवारा ॥ 

Har ras pīvai almasaṯ maṯvārā. 

One who drinks in the Lord's sublime essence, is intoxicated and enraptured; 


ਆਨ ਰਸਾ ਸਭਿ ਹੋਛੇ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

आन रसा सभि होछे रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 

Ān rasā sabẖ hocẖẖe re. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

all other essences have no effect. ||1||Pause|| 


The complete sabad is at pp 377 pl go thru and make your own opinions about this state of intoxication.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 5, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Judging from the actions of what the "council" (SGPC/Akal takhat) is NOW..I wouldnt be totally surprised IF they readily agreed to kamala jis suggestion and get Mr Makarr or Jathedars to order a truck load of brand new Ganeshas and Hanumans from Bombay asap...So DONT hold your breath kanwaljit Ji...:singhsippingcoffee:.


 
Any thing listened from ear may be true or false,Any thing listened from mind is subject to logics, So the best way to listen from the Heart only Truth will be listened.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 5, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Here is a Sabad for you to realise the power of intoxication of NAAMu
> 
> ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਅਲਮਸਤੁ ਮਤਵਾਰਾ ॥
> 
> ...


_Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji I have no interest in your searches for "intoxication/intoxicated__" and quoting these for me.  As you know this is one of the most childish ways of studying SGGS.  NAmely look fior a justification in what you believe versus reading a sabad and trying to understand as is when is, so every reading of a sabad is brand new.  This is so emphasized by Prof. Sahib Singh ji in his Darpan and I  110% agree with it.

I regret that the damage you are doing in confusing issues is much too great to go on wild goose chases with you.  A few young are in your shadow and I feel for them.  We all are adults so I am going to stop interjecting as much as I used to thinking I should catch misdirection at every instance.  It becomes counter-productive very fast.  Trust me I will still participate and challenge or compliment as needed but may be more judiciously and less frequently with you and Bhagat Singh ji.  I have couple of people on ignore so that also helps manage positiveness a bit.

You are stuck brother and perhaps me too.  At max in handful of years we would not be capable of jousting due to time that limits life, ashes and bones we will become.  Let us part ways._

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 5, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji I have no interest in your searches for "intoxication/intoxicated__" and quoting these for me. As you know this is one of the most childish ways of studying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. NAmely look fior a justification in what you believe versus reading a sabad and trying to understand as is when is, so every reading of a sabad is brand new. This is so emphasized by Prof. Sahib Singh ji in his Darpan and I 110% agree with it._
> 
> _I regret that the damage you are doing in confusing issues is much too great to go on wild goose chases with you. A few young are in your shadow and I feel for them. We all are adults so I am going to stop interjecting as much as I used to thinking I should catch misdirection at every instance. It becomes counter-productive very fast. Trust me I will still participate and challenge or compliment as needed but may be more judiciously and less frequently with you and Bhagat Singh ji. I have couple of people on ignore so that also helps manage positiveness a bit._
> 
> ...


 
Even I am equally not interested in interacting or sharing any views with you..I dont expect you to give any uncalled for comments from tyour side too.
If I am given to know thru the Admn of this forum about your role acting as JUDGE I myself would stop writing anything 

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 5, 2012)

Bagga Ji..Rest assured there are no Dharamraaj judges here...everyone is free to earn his karma....intoxication...whatever..TRUTH is HIGH..But HIGHER STILL is TRUTHFUL LIVING...Galleen aseen changeahn...acharee bureahn...quest for the TRUTH is never ending..and never fruitless....so soldier on...but try not be a Don Quixote warrior...because SPN has no dragons...only Sant Sipahis...Gurparsaad..love..mutual respect..is all that matters as we are family of equals...

In my personal experience..Mera satgur NIT NAVAAN is a very special concept....comes through experiencing Him via Gurbani...and in matters of language/vocabulary..PUNJABI far outruns English...thus Mast cannot be limited to just simple "intoxication" in all cases...intoxication is not a panacea/cure all..one size fits all type of word that the sant singh khalsa types seem to imply...
Love and Gurparsaad Jios
Jarnail Singh


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## Kamala (Mar 5, 2012)

I'd like to ask in person rather than a phone call.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 5, 2012)

Kamala said:


> I'd like to ask in person rather than a phone call.


 
Can you activate a thick wall .?
Prakash.s.baaga


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## Luckysingh (Mar 6, 2012)

Kamala said:


> I'd like to ask in person rather than a phone call.


 
So, you think you will get a different answer if asking in person ??

Well, that can only mean that there must be more than one answer.
But you are doubting wether an honest answer is given by way of phone??
A true answer would be the same wether it's phone,fax,email or in person.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 6, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> _So, you think you will get a different answer if asking in person ??_
> 
> Well, that can only mean that there must be more than one answer.
> But you are doubting wether an honest answer is given by way of phone??
> A true answer would be the same wether it's phone,fax,email or in person.


_Luckysingh ji we are all different. Reading from Kamala ji's posts it appears she is a "Convincer" rather than "acceptor". To me the fake exercise and question simply is to irritate and she will not change her mind no matter what anyone says even when she approaches such who have the authority to give specific answers? She prepresents a train with two engines, one on each end. The issue is the Engines in all honesty are not supportive of each others actions, albeit Hindu/Sikh adherency. So they pull the train in opposite directions and she is stuck. One day the train will break and she will know the direction of movement then depending on which wrecked part of the train she is riding having been party to the wrecking scenario through her own choosing, she could possibly start rebuilding a sense of direction._

_Sat Sri Akal._


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## Randip Singh (Jun 14, 2012)

Kamala said:


> But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.


 
Unfortunately Sikhism does not work like that.

The Guru's enshrined the concept of Guru Grant and Guru Paanth. Basically, the Guru and teachings come from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and rulings and edicts come collectively from the Guru's Paanth.

Therefore if all the Sikhs collectively decided we wish to follow the Tat Khalsa way, they that is the direction all Sikhs collectively as the Paath will follow. Even Guru Gobind Sikh ji bowed to the will of his Paanth!!!, so it is irrelevant which path the Guru's wish to follow. The Paanth collectively has decided and that is what we will follow.

Sections that do not follow the will of the Paanth tend to form sects eg Namdharia etc.

http://sikhinstitute.org/g_g_g_p/ch09(gs).htm

http://sikhinstitute.org/g_g_g_p/ch13(js).htm


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## justosh (Jun 14, 2012)

Kamala said:


> But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.



okay this maybe true...... but really ask your-self why did Guru ji create a whole new philosophy, a whole new image, a whole new worship place, new scripture, why did he travel far and wide to teach this..... when he could have left it they way it is.... because that is the essence of Sanatan is. 

if you still do not believe me..... 
why is our Amrit Ceremony (baptism)  COMPLETELY different and has NO links to Hinduism? 

Why is our Kirtan (praises) have NOTHING to do with Hinduism, (plus i really VERY HIGHLY doubt someone would change Guru Granth Ji, because why did they not remove the Muslim saints bani? (E.G. bhagat Farid/bhagat kabir))

And Why did he say NO RITUALS? for that is core of Hinduism...... futher more why are there no direct teaching from the Vedas?....... yes i know Guru talks about it....... but there are no direct teaching from there


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 14, 2012)

Those who say Sikhi was conceived to be Sanatan, don't understand even iota of the depth, meaning and philosophy of what Gurus have said.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2012)

kanwaljit ji..Sanatan "SIKHI" does Exist but dont "beleive" in it theory  jives with the argument...of existence/but not beleiving In.. devis and devtas...all 33 KROR of them.... Same TREE..same ROOT..different branches...a tree no doubt BUT NOT the One that GURU NANAK PLANTED...


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## Kamala (Jun 15, 2012)

justosh said:


> okay this maybe true...... but really ask your-self why did Guru ji create a whole new philosophy, a whole new image, a whole new worship place, new scripture, why did he travel far and wide to teach this..... when he could have left it they way it is.... because that is the essence of Sanatan is.
> 
> if you still do not believe me.....
> why is our Amrit Ceremony (baptism)  COMPLETELY different and has NO links to Hinduism?
> ...



If you know anything about Amrit it was first taken from the churning of the milk ocean (Hinduism). I'm not saying that the religion is Hinduism, I just am saying that there are some things in that relate to it, rather than abrahamic. The muslims saints that are in bani are obviously correct, but you don't see many of them because most aren't like that. Their fore fathers fought and killed our ancestors. Also Kirtan is from Sanatan as well, look up Bhajan/Kirtan.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2012)

Regarding Amrit from milk ocean:

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
The True Name is the Ambrosial Nectar; no one can describe it.

ਪੀਵਤ ਹੂ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਭਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
Drinking it in, one becomes honorable, absorbed in the Perfect Word of the Shabad.

As well as:

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Maajh, Fifth Mehl:

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ॥
The Word of Your Bani, Lord, is Ambrosial Nectar.

ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ॥
Hearing it again and again, I am elevated to the supreme heights.

ਜਲਨਿ ਬੁਝੀ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਮਨੂਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
The burning within me has been extinguished, and my mind has been cooled and soothed, by the Blessed Vision of the True Guru.

Also:

ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ 
The nine treasures are in the Ambrosial Name of God. 

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੁ ॥ 
Within the human body is its place of rest.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2012)

"Amrit" has roots in Churning the oceans...ha ha
Well the MISCONCEPTION actually arises becasue SIKHS themselves (probabaly snatanists/hindu based )...MISINTERPRET and MISNAME whats a* PAHUL* *CEREMONY..PEEVOH PAHUL KHANDEY DHAAR*...a ceremony of *INITIATION*...into "Amrit"....when the GURU CLEARLY and so transparently declares..Nanak AMRIT EK HAI..HOR AMRIT NAHEN...OH Nanak..there is *ONLY ONE* "*AMRIT*"...and NO OTHER..and this AMRIT is the *AMRIT IN GURBANI.*....

So how do we now LINK the Churning oceans with the Himalaya Mountains with SGGS/GURBANI/GURMATT ?? Were the Vedas also emerging form the Ocean...so we cna then say the SGGS also came out of ??? TRUTH is we CANT find a way....there is NONE...the One and ONLY AMRIT is GURBANI.PERIOD.

Sanatanist/Bhagwaists..always find ways and means to LINK.."words" because essentially words are just WORDS...its the new MEANINGS given to OLD WORDS by the Gurus in GURBANI that matters...so many old words..given NEW meanings..bhagauti,bhagwatee, shaktee, shiv..brahma, vishnu...reincarnation, karma etc etc etc...have NOTHING in common with the OLD except the spellings/sound..


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## Luckysingh (Jun 15, 2012)

Amrit is for quenching the thirst, for those that are thirsty- this 'amrit' comes from the bani.
For those not wanting to quench a thirst, but those that enjoy tastes and pleasures, then this same bani can also give them the 'sweet pleasant' taste to please their taste buds.

So, are you thirsty or are you searching for fine sweet tastes ?
Bani can give you the amrit for both.
Or you can soak and immerse your complete mind into the bani, which can give you the sweet amrit taste that always trickles down from your mind to the taste buds in your mouth.

Amrit naam nidhaan hai, mil peevoh pieyee.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2012)

Kanwaljit Ji..your and me make a perfect team...you get the relevant quotes ..I give the general idea....because i want the readers to go find the quotes....as thats hard work and dedicated searching..

In another posting I gave a hint of  a Shivji story ref female sex organs all over Shiv's body BUT I never gave the exact shabad becasue i wanted the person involved to go search it by herself...she never did search and never quoted it..BUT stuck to her point that devtas cannot be lke that and this story cannot be form sggs/gurbani..soem people never get convinced..becasue they already have preconceived notions..as such i never spoon feed such becasue even IF they SEE the Spoon full of "AMRIT"..they will say ughhhh thats castor oil..i dont take castor oil becasue it smells awful (meaning thats NOT what i meant to say,,) ha ha ha..CHEERS jios..Keep it up...Keep the Gurbani Coming...japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2012)

> I give the general idea....because i want the readers to go find the quotes


 
Hehe some times they can't realize that you are repeating themes from Gurbani, not just talking rhetoric! After the Amrit ceremony, some of the Gursikh brothers, shared this Katha on Amrit with these Shabads, that's why they are seared into my heart.

PS: the english based search on Sikhitothemax helps a lot in finding themes of Shabad.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 15, 2012)

Kamala said:


> If you know anything about Amrit it was first taken from the churning of the milk ocean (Hinduism). I'm not saying that the religion is Hinduism, I just am saying that there are some things in that relate to it, rather than abrahamic. The muslims saints that are in bani are obviously correct, but you don't see many of them because most aren't like that. Their fore fathers fought and killed our ancestors. Also Kirtan is from Sanatan as well, look up Bhajan/Kirtan.


 
 Kirtan is NOT from sanatan and it is NOT the same as Bhajans.
I'm not sure where you got this from, as I am aware of what it takes to do kirtan and also what it takes to do bhajans.

Ek Onkaar, Waheguru


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2012)

Bhajns are what we call *KACHI BANI/DHAARNAS*....and maybe now everyone can UNDERSTAND why our half-past-six Babas/Mahapurashs with Sri 108 titles/brahmgyanis etc LOVE DHAARNAS...

BOTH Bhajans and Dhaarnas are MAN MADE...kavitas..or poems...refrains that ordinary joes find easy to follow along...with not much understanding needed...

Authentic "SANSKRIT VERSES" from ramayana/Gita etc are ONLY read aloud by the Pandit at Wedding ceremoneis and other prayers..the ORDINARY PUBLIC just LISTENS...they ONLY JOIN in when Bhajans in COMMON everyday language are SUNG....

SGGS by comparison is already in COMMON MANS LANGUAGE and relatively easy to grasp..but the Babas who grew up drinking the milky bhajans..cant take the trouble to learn authentic GURBANI KIRTAN..so they go DHAARNA !!! and bang their dholkis and chennas so loudly...ha ha and THATS WHEN THEY SOUND like the Bhajans in the MANDIRS...


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## lionprinceuk (Aug 9, 2012)

Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ang p470 
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ Mėhlā 1. Slok 1st Guru.

ਸਾਮ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਤੰਬਰੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਆਛੈ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹੇ ॥ साम कहै सेत्मबरु सुआमी सच महि आछै साचि रहे ॥ Sām kahai seṯambar su▫āmī sacẖ mėh ācẖẖai sācẖ rahe. 
Sam Ved, says, that the Setamber Soami is white-robed, and in the True age, every one desired truth, dwelt in truth,
ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥ सभु को सचि समावै ॥ Sabẖ ko sacẖ samāvai. and was absorbed in truth.
ਰਿਗੁ ਕਹੈ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ रिगु कहै रहिआ भरपूरि ॥ Rig kahai rahi▫ā bẖarpūr. The Rig Ved says contained every where;
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਵਾ ਮਹਿ ਸੂਰੁ ॥ राम नामु देवा महि सूरु ॥ Rām nām ḏevā mėh sūr. and amongst the deities, the Ram's Name is the most exalted.
ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਪਰਾਛਤ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ नाइ लइऐ पराछत जाहि ॥ Nā▫e la▫i▫ai parācẖẖaṯ jāhi. By uttering the Name, the sins depart,
ਨਾਨਕ ਤਉ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ नानक तउ मोखंतरु पाहि ॥ Nānak ṯa▫o mokẖanṯar pāhi. and then, O Nanak, man obtains salvation.
ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ जुज महि जोरि छली चंद्रावलि कान्ह क्रिसनु जादमु भइआ ॥ Juj mėh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥ krisan jāḏam bẖa▫i▫ā. In the time of Yujar Veda, Kan Krishan of Yadva tribe seduced Chandrawli by force.
ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ पारजातु गोपी लै आइआ बिंद्राबन महि रंगु कीआ ॥ Pārjāṯ gopī lai ā▫i▫ā binḏrāban mėh rang kī▫ā. He brought the elysian tree for his milk-maid and revelled in Bindraban.
ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ कलि महि बेदु अथरबणु हूआ नाउ खुदाई अलहु भइआ ॥ Kal mėh beḏ atharbaṇ hū▫ā nā▫o kẖuḏā▫ī alhu bẖa▫i▫ā. In the Dark-age, Athrav Veda became prominent and Allah became the Name of Khudda.
ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਲੇ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰੇ ਤੁਰਕ ਪਠਾਣੀ ਅਮਲੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ नील बसत्र ले कपड़े पहिरे तुरक पठाणी अमलु कीआ ॥ Nīl basṯar le kapṛe pahire ṯurak paṯẖāṇī amal kī▫ā. Men, then took to and wore blue robes and dresses, and Turks and Pathans exercised away.
ਚਾਰੇ ਵੇਦ ਹੋਏ ਸਚਿਆਰ ॥ चारे वेद होए सचिआर ॥ Cẖāre veḏ ho▫e sacẖiār. The four Vedas were professed to be true.
ਪੜਹਿ ਗੁਣਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥ पड़हि गुणहि तिन्ह चार वीचार ॥ Paṛėh guṇėh ṯinĥ cẖār vīcẖār. By reading and studying them, one finds four viewpoints in them.
ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥ भाउ भगति करि नीचु सदाए ॥ Bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ kar nīcẖ saḏā▫e. When a person cherishs love and meditation and calls himself lowly,
ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ तउ नानक मोखंतरु पाए ॥२॥ Ŧa▫o Nānak mokẖanṯar pā▫e. ||2|| it is then, O Nanak that he obtains salvation.


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