# To Live In Truth



## chazSingh (May 28, 2014)

Sat Sangat Ji,

in many threads i often read comments a long the lines of "a sikh should live in truth" but many a time this is often just an open ended comment and could mean a multitude of things to each individual.

Gurbani makes countless references a long the lines of "_How rare are those who, as Gurmukh, live the Truth"

_It would be good if we can get sangats views on what is to *"LIVE IN TRUTH"* to them. 

Maybe to keep posts short and straight to the point if you could list four or five bullet points.

Waheguru


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## chazSingh (May 28, 2014)

1. To make efforts to *know (through experience - not just study) *the truth of reality - what is temporary/illusory and what is permanent in terms of what we experience on the outside and what Gurbani says is within us. (to know thyself and to know Waheguru)

2. *to know* (not just believe) that *nothing* exists other than *Waheguru*

3. once knowing/seeing/feeling that all is Waheguru, to then live *100%* a fearless, loving, compassionate, truthful, honest and courageous life with my fellow beings throughout the duration of my experience of creation. (at the moment although effort is made by myself to do all the above, all my actions still contain elements of the 5 thieves)

4. to know and feel how the 5 thieves (within our minds) pull our attention (consciosness) away from the permanent reality (waheguru) and keep us locked into the temporary creation through attachment, greed, desires, ego and anger - and then to pull away from them once i see their opposing nature *

(2, 3 and 4 are probably all sub-sections to point 1)*

Waheguru


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## Harry Haller (May 28, 2014)

1. to be on the outside as you are in the inside
2. to not be hypocritical
3. to follow the laws of truth, to implement them and live them

the laws of truth are the wisdom encapsulated in the SGGS, so living them is different to japping them, to really embrace them so they become habit is to me, what being a Sikh is all about


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## SaintSoldier1699 (May 28, 2014)

Awareness that there is one guaranteed thing in life, that is death, understanding this should mean we live a life of consciousness, being aware of our thoughts, actions, reactions.

Understanding the ego at all levels of spiritual development, our wants, our aspirations, our demands/expectations etc.  

Ultimately being at peace within leads to peace without.


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## arshdeep88 (May 28, 2014)

Accepting the Truth,accepting one's own faults ,mistakes honestly  sometimes seems hard but acceptance clears the door for the progress ahead.


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## chazSingh (May 28, 2014)

arshdeep88 said:


> Accepting the Truth,accepting one's own faults ,mistakes honestly  sometimes seems hard but acceptance clears the door for the progress ahead.



this is a good one "accepting ones own faults" ... only through accepting our faults can we walk on the road to change.

Thanks for your post ji


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## chazSingh (May 28, 2014)

harry haller said:


> 1. to be on the outside as you are in the inside
> 2. to not be hypocritical
> 3. to follow the laws of truth, to implement them and live them
> 
> the laws of truth are the wisdom encapsulated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so living them is different to japping them, to really embrace them so they become habit is to me, what being a Sikh is all about



I fall into the 'hypocritical' box many times...
i find the only way not to be hypocritical is to not judge anyone...and to sort out my own shortcoming before commenting on others...

but its easier said than done


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## arshi (May 28, 2014)

_Baitath, ootath, sovat, jaagat visar naahen too<SUP>n</SUP> saas giraasa (378-6)_
Whilst sitting, standing, asleep or awake and with every morsel of food may I never forsake You O Lord.<?"urn:<img src=" />

Appreciate all the above posts and here a few more in a nutshell:

● Breathe and inhale Sikhi
● Hear and absorb Sikhi
● Sleep and dream Sikhi
● Live and walk Sikhi

University: Humanity
Course: Sikhi
Core reading: Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Supplementary reading: Rehatnama; Bhai Gurdas, Bhai Nand Lal jios


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## chazSingh (May 28, 2014)

i know i asked short an concise answers from everyone but i think it's only right to introduce some Gurbani.

I came across this great shabad which i think highlights many aspects of *LIVING IN TRUTH* - living beyond duality, living beyond hot and cold, good and bad, praise and blame etc etc... so difficult to comprehend such a state of being, such a state of living

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
सिरीरागु महला ५ ॥ 
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5. 
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl: 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ  ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ  ਮੰਧੇ  ਸੰਸਾਰੁ  ਸਗਲਾਣਾ  ॥ 
दुक्रित सुक्रित मंधे संसारु सगलाणा ॥ 
Ḏukariṯ sukariṯ manḏẖe sansār saglāṇā. 
The whole world is engrossed in bad deeds and good deeds. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦੁਹਹੂੰ  ਤੇ  ਰਹਤ  ਭਗਤੁ  ਹੈ  ਕੋਈ  ਵਿਰਲਾ  ਜਾਣਾ  ॥੧॥ 
दुहहूं ते रहत भगतु है कोई विरला जाणा ॥१॥ 
Ḏuhhūŉ ṯe rahaṯ bẖagaṯ hai ko▫ī virlā jāṇā. ||1|| 
God's devotee is above both, but those who understand this are very rare. ||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਠਾਕੁਰੁ  ਸਰਬੇ  ਸਮਾਣਾ  ॥ 
ठाकुरु सरबे समाणा ॥ 
Ŧẖākur sarbe samāṇā. 
Our Lord and Master is all-pervading everywhere. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਿਆ  ਕਹਉ  ਸੁਣਉ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਤੂੰ  ਵਡ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਸੁਜਾਣਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
किआ कहउ सुणउ सुआमी तूं वड पुरखु सुजाणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ki▫ā kaha▫o suṇa▫o su▫āmī ṯūŉ vad purakẖ sujāṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
What should I say, and what should I hear? O my Lord and Master, You are Great, All-powerful and All-knowing. ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਮਾਨ  ਅਭਿਮਾਨ  ਮੰਧੇ  ਸੋ  ਸੇਵਕੁ  ਨਾਹੀ  ॥ 
मान अभिमान मंधे सो सेवकु नाही ॥ 
Mān abẖimān manḏẖe so sevak nāhī. 
One who is influenced by praise and blame is not God's servant. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਤਤ  ਸਮਦਰਸੀ  ਸੰਤਹੁ  ਕੋਈ  ਕੋਟਿ  ਮੰਧਾਹੀ  ॥੨॥ 
तत समदरसी संतहु कोई कोटि मंधाही ॥२॥ 
Ŧaṯ samaḏrasī sanṯahu ko▫ī kot manḏẖāhī. ||2|| 
One who sees the essence of reality with impartial vision, O Saints, is very rare-one among millions. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਹਨ  ਕਹਾਵਨ  ਇਹੁ  ਕੀਰਤਿ  ਕਰਲਾ  ॥ 
कहन कहावन इहु कीरति करला ॥ 
Kahan kahāvan ih kīraṯ karlā. 
People talk on and on about Him; they consider this to be praise of God. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਥਨ  ਕਹਨ  ਤੇ  ਮੁਕਤਾ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਕੋਈ  ਵਿਰਲਾ  ॥੩॥ 
कथन कहन ते मुकता गुरमुखि कोई विरला ॥३॥ 
Kathan kahan ṯe mukṯā gurmukẖ ko▫ī virlā. ||3|| 
But rare indeed is the Gurmukh, who is above this mere talk. ||3|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਗਤਿ  ਅਵਿਗਤਿ  ਕਛੁ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਨ  ਆਇਆ  ॥ 
गति अविगति कछु नदरि न आइआ ॥ 
Gaṯ avigaṯ kacẖẖ naḏar na ā▫i▫ā. 
He is not concerned with deliverance or bondage. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਸੰਤਨ  ਕੀ  ਰੇਣੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਦਾਨੁ  ਪਾਇਆ  ॥੪॥੨੬॥੯੬॥ 
संतन की रेणु नानक दानु पाइआ ॥४॥२६॥९६॥ 
Sanṯan kī reṇ Nānak ḏān pā▫i▫ā. ||4||26||96|| 
Nanak has obtained the gift of the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||26||96|| 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Sherdil (May 28, 2014)

This is a good question. It is actually the first question asked in gurbani. 

"Kiv sachiaara hoiyeh? Kiv kooreh tooteh paal?" How can we become truthful? How can we break through the illusion of falsehood?

"Hukam razaai chalna. Nanak likhiya naal." Walk willingly with the Hukam. Nanak shows the way. 

So maybe it would be prudent to start with the concept of Hukam, and then build from there.


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## chazSingh (May 28, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> This is a good question. It is actually the first question asked in gurbani.
> 
> "Kiv sachiaara hoiyeh? Kiv kooreh tooteh paal?" How can we become truthful? How can we break through the illusion of falsehood?
> 
> ...



i think hukam opens a can of worms when it comes to opinions, concepts, thoughts if what it is  it is a thread in itself...maybe we can start one up...i think there are already some out there.

what i think i can gather from Gurbani...hukam at an early stage is commands that we can gather from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...in terms of living our lives, in terms of where to seek waheguru ji, in terms of becoming aware that the world is not our true reality...

i think at a higher level, when one can see, hear only God...the hukam is his shabad forming, guiding the creation like the currents in the water...and we are 100% attuned to it very deep within our own being...we are part of this flow and not resisting (Ego)

my head starts to hurt when i think about it...which usually tells me hukam at a very deep level is something i won;t be able to comprehend with my mind or something i can give justice to through language...



God Bless Ji


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## ActsOfGod (May 28, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> i know i asked short an concise answers from everyone but i think it's only right to introduce some Gurbani.
> 
> I came across this great shabad which i think highlights many aspects of *LIVING IN TRUTH* - living beyond duality, living beyond hot and cold, good and bad, praise and blame etc etc... so difficult to comprehend such a state of being, such a state of living
> 
> ...




Thank you for copying this shabad above.

Gurbani is so beautiful, complex, multi-layered, and deep.  Just reading it produces such bliss and gives complete peace.  At the same time it imparts divine wisdom and spiritual enlightenment.

AoG


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## arshi (May 29, 2014)

My earlier message (Post #8) ) was succinct, but something every Sikh should aspire to. Forgive for having a second bite of the cherry - a more detailed reply must include the three cornerstones of Sikhi (most know but few of us – including me – understand):
<?"urn:<img src=" />
*(1) Naam japna: *This does not mean just doing paath in parrot fashion; it is a ‘package’ instruction – it includes execution and incorporation of the message in our day to day living. 

Repeated number of Paaths is a means to an end – <I>Bani kantth karo ta key saadey zehan vich</I> <I>bus jaa-ey</I> (learn Bani by heart so that it becomes second nature, accessible 24/7 to guide us in all situations).

*(2) Kirat karni:* Honest labour and living.

*(3) Wand Shakna:* Sharing the rewards of our labour including intellect, know-how etc.

*(4) Tolerance:* Tolerance (live and let live) and humility are linked – can’t have one without the other.
<I></I>
<I>Fareedaa burai da bhalaa kar gussaa mann na hadhaa-ai (1381 -19)</I>
<I>Farid do not harbour grudges; return bad intentions with goodness.</I>
<I></I>
<I>Na ko bairee nahee bigaanaa sagal sang ham kao ban aay-ee (1299–14)</I>
Treat all mankind as one family; be at enmity with no one - befriend all. 

<I>bh</I><I>ai kaahoo ka-o dayt neh neh bhai maanat aan.(1427 -7) </I>
In short the message is: fear none, frighten none (live and let live policy)

<I></I><I>Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’</I>


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## chazSingh (May 29, 2014)

I also think living in truth means knowing 100% what is permanent reality and what is temporary/illusory...what/who we really are...
*
Using an Analogy of a computer Game*
We can live our life thinking we are the characters in a computer Game, not knowing of the true reality.

The truth would be that an existance exists beyond the computer game, that there is a computer programer that created the creation (the game)...and that a whole reality is there beyond the computer game.

Knowing the truth, our attention, our focus, our direction in the game would change, our interaction with other characters would change...and our desire to understand and seek first hand experience and knowledge of the true reality would increase (our thirst for Waheguru)

*Hope this makes sense *


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## Sherdil (May 30, 2014)

To accept Hukam is to accept death. Realize that one day you will die, and all the trivial stuff in your life becomes meaningless. Money, material possessions, and personal relationships are all transitory. They will not go with you. Focus on what's important. 

Accepting death allows us to not take this life for granted. We savor each moment, because it may not come again. 

Hukam raazi chalna (walk willingly with the Hukam). In this way we ease our suffering.

To me, this is living truthfully.


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> To accept Hukam is to accept death. Realize that one day you will die, and all the trivial stuff in your life becomes meaningless. Money, material possessions, and personal relationships are all transitory. They will not go with you. Focus on what's important.
> 
> Accepting death allows us to not take this life for granted. We savor each moment, because it may not come again.
> 
> ...



personally i prefer to live in the knowledge that there is no death. death exists for the people that stay behind and see the dead body...

there is no death for me (soul)....i take with me my deeds and my deeds only...everything else is of no use, i leave that all behind...

my attachements, anger, desires, ego, greed go with me...and will affect my state of being...and where i (soul) go and of what becomes of me...

Therefore it is of utmost importance that i pray/meditate and live in TRUTH now so that i leave this body not having to come back and that i merge in truth whilst still alive...

There is no death, if you follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, this is something that will be shown to you.

In the words of Kabir Ji *"Settle your accounts in this Farm (body)"*
Pannaa 1104 - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: 

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਕਾਹੇ  ਕੀਜਤੁ  ਹੈ  ਮਨਿ  ਭਾਵਨੁ  ॥ 
काहे कीजतु है मनि भावनु ॥ 
Kāhe kījaṯ hai man bẖāvan. 
Why do you act only to please your mind? 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜਬ  ਜਮੁ  ਆਇ  ਕੇਸ  ਤੇ  ਪਕਰੈ  ਤਹ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੋ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਛਡਾਵਨ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
जब जमु आइ केस ते पकरै तह हरि को नामु छडावन ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jab jam ā▫e kes ṯe pakrai ṯah har ko nām cẖẖadāvan. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
When Death comes and grabs you by the hair, then only the Name of the Lord will save you. ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਾਲੁ  ਅਕਾਲੁ  ਖਸਮ  ਕਾ  ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ  ਇਹੁ  ਪਰਪੰਚੁ  ਬਧਾਵਨੁ  ॥ 
कालु अकालु खसम का कीन्हा इहु परपंचु बधावनु ॥ 
Kāl akāl kẖasam kā kīnĥā ih parpancẖ baḏẖāvan. 
Death, and deathlessness are the creations of our Lord and Master; this show, this expanse, is only an entanglement. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਹਿ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਤੇ  ਅੰਤੇ  ਮੁਕਤੇ  ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਹਿਰਦੈ  ਰਾਮ  ਰਸਾਇਨੁ  ॥੨॥੬॥ 
कहि कबीर ते अंते मुकते जिन्ह हिरदै राम रसाइनु ॥२॥६॥ 
Kahi Kabīr ṯe anṯe mukṯe jinĥ hirḏai rām rasā▫in. ||2||6|| 
Says Kabeer, those who have the sublime essence of the Lord in their hearts - in the end, they are liberated. ||2||6|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦੇਹੀ  ਗਾਵਾ  ਜੀਉ  ਧਰ  ਮਹਤਉ  ਬਸਹਿ  ਪੰਚ  ਕਿਰਸਾਨਾ  ॥ 
देही गावा जीउ धर महतउ बसहि पंच किरसाना ॥ 
Ḏehī gāvā jī▫o ḏẖar mahṯa▫o basėh pancẖ kirsānā. 
The body is a village, and the soul is the owner and farmer; the five farm-hands live there. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨੈਨੂ  ਨਕਟੂ  ਸ੍ਰਵਨੂ  ਰਸਪਤਿ  ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ  ਕਹਿਆ  ਨ  ਮਾਨਾ  ॥੧॥ 
नैनू नकटू स्रवनू रसपति इंद्री कहिआ न माना ॥१॥ 
Nainū naktū sarvanū raspaṯ inḏrī kahi▫ā na mānā. ||1|| 
The eyes, nose, ears, tongue and sensory organs of touch do not obey any order. ||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਬਾਬਾ  ਅਬ  ਨ  ਬਸਉ  ਇਹ  ਗਾਉ  ॥ 
बाबा अब न बसउ इह गाउ ॥ 
Bābā ab na basa▫o ih gā▫o. 
O father, now I shall not live in this village. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਘਰੀ  ਘਰੀ  ਕਾ  ਲੇਖਾ  ਮਾਗੈ  ਕਾਇਥੁ  ਚੇਤੂ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
घरी घरी का लेखा मागै काइथु चेतू नाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Gẖarī gẖarī kā lekẖā māgai kā▫ith cẖeṯū nā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
The accountants summoned  Chitar and Gupat, the recording scribes of the conscious and the  unconscious, to ask for an account of each and every moment.  ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਧਰਮ  ਰਾਇ  ਜਬ  ਲੇਖਾ  ਮਾਗੈ  ਬਾਕੀ  ਨਿਕਸੀ  ਭਾਰੀ  ॥ 
धरम राइ जब लेखा मागै बाकी निकसी भारी ॥ 
Ḏẖaram rā▫e jab lekẖā māgai bākī niksī bẖārī. 
When the Righteous Judge of Dharma calls for my account, there shall be a very heavy balance against me. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪੰਚ  ਕ੍ਰਿਸਾਨਵਾ  ਭਾਗਿ  ਗਏ  ਲੈ  ਬਾਧਿਓ  ਜੀਉ  ਦਰਬਾਰੀ  ॥੨॥ 
पंच क्रिसानवा भागि गए लै बाधिओ जीउ दरबारी ॥२॥ 
Pancẖ kirsānvā bẖāg ga▫e lai bāḏẖi▫o jī▫o ḏarbārī. ||2|| 
The five farm-hands shall then run away, and the bailiff shall arrest the soul. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਹੈ  ਕਬੀਰੁ  ਸੁਨਹੁ  ਰੇ  ਸੰਤਹੁ  ਖੇਤ  ਹੀ  ਕਰਹੁ  ਨਿਬੇਰਾ  ॥ 
कहै कबीरु सुनहु रे संतहु खेत ही करहु निबेरा ॥ 
Kahai Kabīr sunhu re sanṯahu kẖeṯ hī karahu niberā. 
Says Kabeer, listen, O Saints: settle your accounts in this farm. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਅਬ  ਕੀ  ਬਾਰ  ਬਖਸਿ  ਬੰਦੇ  ਕਉ  ਬਹੁਰਿ  ਨ  ਭਉਜਲਿ  ਫੇਰਾ  ॥੩॥੭॥ 
अब की बार बखसि बंदे कउ बहुरि न भउजलि फेरा ॥३॥७॥ 
Ab kī bār bakẖas banḏe ka▫o bahur na bẖa▫ojal ferā. ||3||7|| 
O Lord, please forgive  Your slave now, in this life, so that he may not have to return again to  this terrifying world-ocean. ||3||7|| 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Sherdil (May 30, 2014)

chaszSingh said:
			
		

> personally i prefer to live in the knowledge that there is no death. death exists for the people that stay behind and see the dead body...



Whether or not we believe in reincarnation, the fact that the Universe will come to an end holds true, does it not? Gurbani says that everything is subject to Kaal (death/time) except the divine, who is Akaal (without death/time).



			
				chazSingh said:
			
		

> there is no death for me (soul)....i take with me my deeds and my deeds only...everything else is of no use, i leave that all behind...
> 
> my attachements, anger, desires, ego, greed go with me...and will affect my state of being...and where i (soul) go and of what becomes of me...


Reincarnation



			
				chazSingh said:
			
		

> Therefore it is of utmost importance that i pray/meditate and live in TRUTH now so that i leave this body not having to come back and that i merge in truth whilst still alive.


Understanding Truth is one thing, but living it is something else. We can't escape Maya. We can only understand that it isn't real. This is why I am beginning to think there is no literal Mukti. If there is such a thing, then how do we know when we achieve it? All we can say is that this life has a lot of suffering in it, partially caused by our own desires and partially caused by external factors. All we can do is control our inner desires and accept the external circumstances that are out of our control. This is to accept Hukam. I believe this leads to contentment (Mukti).

Therefore living truthfully entails understanding the concept of Hukam and becoming at peace with it, in addition to everything we discussed regarding Naam and the oneness of everything. 

I'm just trying to put the puzzle pieces together, as I feel all these things are interconnected. Guru ji said "Hukam raazi chalna", is the way we become sachiaara (truthful). So this is what I'm trying to understand.


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Whether or not we believe in reincarnation, the fact that the Universe will come to an end holds true, does it not? Gurbani says that everything is subject to Kaal (death/time) except the divine, who is Akaal (without death/time).
> 
> 
> Reincarnation
> ...



i am not talking about re-incarnation...i am talking about you existing in your true form once physical death occurs.

Gurbani makes many references over and over about you existing after physical death....therefore if you exists after physical death...there is no actual Death for you...you have just left behind your body.

you mention* " This is why I am beginning to think there is no literal Mukti. If there  is such a thing, then how do we know when we achieve it?*"

seriously? thats like saying..."if i am to climb mount everest, how will i know if i have reached the top" .... urrm...if there is nothing left to climb lol

surely you can only get an answer to that question by walking that path...until then you're just tying knots in your brain thinking about it...which is not a bad thing as it gets you contemplating...but too much wondering can also create many doubts...so just be careful

you have to climb the mountain to know if there is a peak...you have to climb it to know when you have reached the top (destination)....you have to climb it to experience getting there....

sitting around at the base of the mountain with if and buts gets you nowhere...

Guru's hukam tells you clearly what you must do...if you do it will full faith, love and devotion, Sri Guru Granth will start to manifest inside of you bit by bit...you will be living what it describes...bit by bit...then your doubts will diminish...fearless..no more fear of death...you will never doubt a single thing described in Gurbani ever again

there are countless references to becoming one with God whilst yet alive in the world...there are countless references and descriptions to gurmukhs living amongst maya and being beyond it's grasp..

please do a simple search on sikhi to the max website and you will find many shabads that will help to remove your doubt...


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## chazSingh (May 30, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Whether or not we believe in reincarnation, the fact that the Universe will come to an end holds true, does it not? Gurbani says that everything is subject to Kaal (death/time) except the divine, who is Akaal (without death/time).




Gurbani also says there is a part of you the TRUE YOU that is in escence the SAME as Waheguru Ji....

therefore if HE is beyind Kaal....and the TRUE YOU is like Him....what does that make you? beyond Kaal...

that is why Gurbani Says, Know yourself and you will know Waheguru Ji.

its makes so much sense...we just have to defeat our Ego which is making us doubt this...and which makes us think we are this minute little person that will live, then die...and nothing more...

When in reality, we are sooo much more...and so beyond that limitation..

Like a Mother who child has gone of the rails and started wasting away his/her live...the mother calls out, yearns, knows Her child is more than this...is a better person...is beyond what they have become...Waheguru Ji is trying to wake us up to our True reality.




Simples


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## gur_meet (May 31, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> Gurbani also says there is a part of you the TRUE YOU that is in escence the SAME as Waheguru Ji....
> 
> therefore if HE is beyind Kaal....and ...what does that make you? beyond Kaal...
> 
> ...



Chaz Singh ji
You have stated  aptly " *the TRUE YOU is like Him ".*

Knowing yourself seems to be an identification process. When ever I go through the flow of some shabads it is amazing to see the subtle hints in two aspects. 

Gurbani explains about the state that vikars bring , the sufferings the manmukh faces , the impact of maya and then induces us to shift. The other part is naam. This shift is towards naam. The shift is to adopt and identify in a way of life which would enable us to become " Ek Ranga" meaning of same color. 

Let us look at this shabad here there is only subtle identification guidance.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>   <o:AllowPNG/>  </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->  ਆਸਾ[/FONT] ਮਹਲਾ[/FONT] ੫[/FONT] ॥[/FONT]Aasaa Mehalaa 5 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:


  ਨਾ[/FONT] ਓਹੁ[/FONT] ਮਰਤਾ[/FONT] ਨਾ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਡਰਿਆ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ouhu Marathaa Naa Ham Ddariaa ||
He does not die, so I do not fear.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਓਹੁ[/FONT] ਬਿਨਸੈ[/FONT] ਨਾ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਕੜਿਆ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ouhu Binasai Naa Ham Karriaa ||
He does not perish, so I do not grieve.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਓਹੁ[/FONT] ਨਿਰਧਨੁ[/FONT] ਨਾ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਭੂਖੇ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ouhu Niradhhan Naa Ham Bhookhae ||
He is not poor, so I do not hunger.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਓਸੁ[/FONT] ਦੂਖੁ[/FONT] ਨ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਕਉ[/FONT] ਦੂਖੇ[/FONT] ॥[/FONT]੧[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Dhookh N Ham Ko Dhookhae ||1||
He is not in pain, so I do not suffer. ||1||
ਅਵਰੁ[/FONT] ਨ[/FONT] ਕੋਊ[/FONT] ਮਾਰਨਵਾਰਾ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Avar N Kooo Maaranavaaraa ||
There is no other Destroyer than Him.
ਜੀਅਉ[/FONT] ਹਮਾਰਾ[/FONT] ਜੀਉ[/FONT] ਦੇਨਹਾਰਾ[/FONT] ॥[/FONT]੧[/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Jeeao Hamaaraa Jeeo Dhaenehaaraa ||1|| Rehaao ||
He is my very life, the Giver of life. ||1||Pause||
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਉਸੁ[/FONT] ਬੰਧਨ[/FONT] ਨਾ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਬਾਧੇ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Bandhhan Naa Ham Baadhhae ||
He is not bound, so I am not in bondage.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਉਸੁ[/FONT] ਧੰਧਾ[/FONT] ਨਾ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਧਾਧੇ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Dhhandhhaa Naa Ham Dhhaadhhae ||
He has no occupation, so I have no entanglements.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਉਸੁ[/FONT] ਮੈਲੁ[/FONT] ਨ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਕਉ[/FONT] ਮੈਲਾ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Mail N Ham Ko Mailaa ||
He has no impurities, so I have no impurities.
ਓਸੁ[/FONT] ਅਨੰਦੁ[/FONT] ਤ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਸਦ[/FONT] ਕੇਲਾ[/FONT] ॥[/FONT]੨[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Ous Anandh Th Ham Sadh Kaelaa ||2||
He is in ecstasy, so I am always happy. ||2||
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਉਸੁ[/FONT] ਸੋਚੁ[/FONT] ਨ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਕਉ[/FONT] ਸੋਚਾ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Soch N Ham Ko Sochaa ||
He has no anxiety, so I have no cares.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਉਸੁ[/FONT] ਲੇਪੁ[/FONT] ਨ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਕਉ[/FONT] ਪੋਚਾ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Laep N Ham Ko Pochaa ||
He has no stain, so I have no pollution.
ਨਾ[/FONT] ਉਸੁ[/FONT] ਭੂਖ[/FONT] ਨ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਕਉ[/FONT] ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ[/FONT] ॥ [/FONT]Naa Ous Bhookh N Ham Ko Thrisanaa ||
He has no hunger, so I have no thirst.
ਜਾ[/FONT] ਉਹੁ[/FONT] ਨਿਰਮਲੁ[/FONT] ਤਾਂ[/FONT] ਹਮ[/FONT] ਜਚਨਾ[/FONT] ॥[/FONT]੩[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Jaa Ouhu Niramal Thaan Ham Jachanaa ||3||
Since He is immaculately pure, I correspond to Him. ||3||
ਹਮ[/FONT]ਕਿਛੁ[/FONT]ਨਾਹੀ[/FONT]ਏਕੈ[/FONT]ਓਹੀ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Ham Kishh Naahee Eaekai Ouhee ||
I am nothing; He is the One and only.
ਆਗੈ[/FONT]ਪਾਛੈ[/FONT]ਏਕੋ[/FONT]ਸੋਈ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Aagai Paashhai Eaeko Soee ||
Before and after, He alone exists 
*ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT]**ਗੁਰਿ[/FONT]**ਖੋਏ[/FONT]**ਭ੍ਰਮ[/FONT]**ਭੰਗਾ[/FONT]**॥ [/FONT]*Naanak Gur Khoeae Bhram Bhangaa || [/FONT]
O Nanak, the Guru has taken away my doubts and mistakes;[/FONT]
*ਹਮ[/FONT]**ਓਇ[/FONT]**ਮਿਲਿ[/FONT]**ਹੋਏ[/FONT]**ਇਕ[/FONT]**ਰੰਗਾ[/FONT]** ॥[/FONT]**੪[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**੩੨[/FONT]**॥[/FONT]**੮੩[/FONT]**॥ [/FONT]*Ham Oue Mil Hoeae Eik Rangaa ||4||32||83||[/FONT]
He and I, joining together, are of the same color. ||4||32||83||[/FONT]
*ਆਸਾ[/FONT]** (**ਮ[/FONT]**: **੫[/FONT]**) **ਗੁਰੂ[/FONT]**ਗ੍ਰੰਥ[/FONT]**ਸਾਹਿਬ[/FONT]** : **ਅੰਗ[/FONT]**੩੯੧ Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji 391[/FONT]*

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>   <o:AllowPNG/>  </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->  This Shabad probably states what the living attitude leading towards_ sach_ (the truth behind self) is.
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 <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"    UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 7"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"    UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 8"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"    UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 9"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Normal Indent"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="footnote text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="annotation text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="header"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="footer"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="index heading"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" SemiHidden="true"    UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="table of figures"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="envelope address"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="envelope return"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="footnote reference"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="annotation reference"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="line number"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="page number"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="endnote reference"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="endnote text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="table of authorities"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="macro"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="toa heading"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Bullet"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Number"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Bullet 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Bullet 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Bullet 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Bullet 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Number 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Number 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Number 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Number 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Closing"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Signature"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="true"    UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text Indent"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Continue"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Continue 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Continue 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Continue 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="List Continue 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Message Header"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Salutation"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Date"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text First Indent"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text First Indent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Note Heading"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text Indent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Body Text Indent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Block Text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Hyperlink"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="FollowedHyperlink"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Document Map"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Plain Text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="E-mail Signature"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Top of Form"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Normal (Web)"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Acronym"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Address"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Cite"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Code"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Definition"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Keyboard"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Preformatted"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Sample"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Typewriter"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="HTML Variable"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Normal Table"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="annotation subject"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="No List"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Outline List 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Outline List 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Outline List 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Simple 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Simple 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Simple 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Classic 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Classic 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Classic 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Classic 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Colorful 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Colorful 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Colorful 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Columns 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Columns 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Columns 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Columns 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Columns 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 7"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Grid 8"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 7"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table List 8"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table 3D effects 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table 3D effects 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table 3D effects 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Contemporary"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Elegant"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Professional"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Subtle 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Subtle 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Web 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Web 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Web 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Balloon Text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"    Name="Table Theme"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true"    Name="List Paragraph"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true"    Name="Intense Quote"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" 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## gur_meet (Jun 1, 2014)

Is *to live in Truth* same as *truthful living*?  
  Is the word truth same as Sach in gurbani?

These questions being asked here have a purpose. The purpose is to point out  how dependency on translation and even selection of words in a  translation leads to a different meaning.  
  Here is a Shabad in which those conversant with gurbani can observe the weakness in translation.


  ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ[/FONT]ਮਹਲਾ[/FONT]੧[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Sireeraag Mehalaa 1 ||
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
[/FONT]ਰਾਮ[/FONT]ਨਾਮਿ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਬੇਧਿਆ[/FONT]ਅਵਰੁ[/FONT]ਕਿ[/FONT]ਕਰੀ[/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Raam Naam Man Baedhhiaa Avar K Karee Veechaar ||
My mind is pierced through by the Name of the Lord. What else should I contemplate?
[/FONT]ਸਬਦ[/FONT]ਸੁਰਤਿ[/FONT]ਸੁਖੁ[/FONT]ਊਪਜੈ[/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਭ[/FONT]ਰਾਤਉ[/FONT]ਸੁਖ[/FONT]ਸਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Sabadh Surath Sukh Oopajai Prabh Raatho Sukh Saar ||
Focusing your awareness on the Shabad, happiness wells up. Attuned to God, the most excellent peace is found.
[/FONT]ਜਿਉ[/FONT]ਭਾਵੈ[/FONT]ਤਿਉ[/FONT]ਰਾਖੁ[/FONT]ਤੂੰ[/FONT]ਮੈ[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT]ਅਧਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੧॥ [/FONT]Jio Bhaavai Thio Raakh Thoon Mai Har Naam Adhhaar ||1||
As it pleases You, please save me, Lord. The Name of the Lord is my Support. ||1||
[/FONT]ਮਨ[/FONT]ਰੇ[/FONT]ਸਾਚੀ[/FONT]ਖਸਮ[/FONT]ਰਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]Man Rae Saachee Khasam Rajaae ||
O mind, the Will of our Lord and Master is true.
[/FONT]ਜਿਨਿ[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਾਜਿ[/FONT]ਸੀਗਾਰਿਆ[/FONT]ਤਿਸੁ[/FONT]ਸੇਤੀ[/FONT]ਲਿਵ[/FONT]ਲਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Jin Than Man Saaj Seegaariaa This Saethee Liv Laae ||1|| Rehaao ||
Focus your love upon the One who created and adorned your body and mind. ||1||Pause||
[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਬੈਸੰਤਰਿ[/FONT]ਹੋਮੀਐ[/FONT]ਇਕ[/FONT]ਰਤੀ[/FONT]ਤੋਲਿ[/FONT]ਕਟਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Than Baisanthar Homeeai Eik Rathee Thol Kattaae ||
If I cut my body into pieces, and burn them in the fire,
[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਮਧਾ[/FONT]ਜੇ[/FONT]ਕਰੀ[/FONT]ਅਨਦਿਨੁ[/FONT]ਅਗਨਿ[/FONT]ਜਲਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Than Man Samadhhaa Jae Karee Anadhin Agan Jalaae ||
And if I make my body and mind into firewood, and night and day burn them in the fire,
[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੈ[/FONT]ਤੁਲਿ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਪੁਜਈ[/FONT]ਜੇ[/FONT]ਲਖ[/FONT]ਕੋਟੀ[/FONT]ਕਰਮ[/FONT]ਕਮਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੨॥ [/FONT]Har Naamai Thul N Pujee Jae Lakh Kottee Karam Kamaae ||2||
And if I perform hundreds of thousands and millions of religious  rituals-still, all these are not equal to the Name of the Lord. ||2||
[/FONT]ਅਰਧ[/FONT]ਸਰੀਰੁ[/FONT]ਕਟਾਈਐ[/FONT]ਸਿਰਿ[/FONT]ਕਰਵਤੁ[/FONT]ਧਰਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Aradhh Sareer Kattaaeeai Sir Karavath Dhharaae ||
If my body were cut in half, if a saw was put to my head,
[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਹੈਮੰਚਲਿ[/FONT]ਗਾਲੀਐ[/FONT]ਭੀ[/FONT]ਮਨ[/FONT]ਤੇ[/FONT]ਰੋਗੁ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Than Haimanchal Gaaleeai Bhee Man Thae Rog N Jaae ||
And if my body were frozen in the Himalayas-even then, my mind would not be free of disease.
[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੈ[/FONT]ਤੁਲਿ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਪੁਜਈ[/FONT]ਸਭ[/FONT]ਡਿਠੀ[/FONT]ਠੋਕਿ[/FONT]ਵਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੩॥ [/FONT]Har Naamai Thul N Pujee Sabh Ddithee Thok Vajaae ||3||
None of these are equal to the Name of the Lord. I have seen and tried and tested them all. ||3||
[/FONT]ਕੰਚਨ[/FONT]ਕੇ[/FONT]ਕੋਟ[/FONT]ਦਤੁ[/FONT]ਕਰੀ[/FONT]ਬਹੁ[/FONT]ਹੈਵਰ[/FONT]ਗੈਵਰ[/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Kanchan Kae Kott Dhath Karee Bahu Haivar Gaivar Dhaan ||
If I made a donation of castles of gold, and gave lots of fine horses and wondrous elephants in charity,
[/FONT]ਭੂਮਿ[/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ[/FONT]ਗਊਆ[/FONT]ਘਣੀ[/FONT]ਭੀ[/FONT]ਅੰਤਰਿ[/FONT]ਗਰਬੁ[/FONT]ਗੁਮਾਨੁ[/FONT]॥  [/FONT]Bhoom Dhaan Gooaa Ghanee Bhee Anthar Garab Gumaan ||
And if I made donations of land and cows-even then, pride and ego would still be within me.
[/FONT]ਰਾਮ[/FONT]ਨਾਮਿ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਬੇਧਿਆ[/FONT]ਗੁਰਿ[/FONT]ਦੀਆ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੪[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Raam Naam Man Baedhhiaa Gur Dheeaa Sach Dhaan ||4||[/FONT]
  The Name of the Lord has pierced my mind; the Guru has given me this true gift. ||4||[/FONT]
  ਮਨਹਠ[/FONT]ਬੁਧੀ[/FONT]ਕੇਤੀਆ[/FONT]ਕੇਤੇ[/FONT]ਬੇਦ[/FONT]ਬੀਚਾਰ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Manehath Budhhee Kaetheeaa Kaethae Baedh Beechaar ||
There are so many stubborn-minded intelligent people, and so many who contemplate the Vedas.
[/FONT]ਕੇਤੇ[/FONT]ਬੰਧਨ[/FONT]ਜੀਅ[/FONT]ਕੇ[/FONT]ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ[/FONT]ਮੋਖ[/FONT]ਦੁਆਰ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Kaethae Bandhhan Jeea Kae Guramukh Mokh Dhuaar ||
There are so many entanglements for the soul. Only as Gurmukh do we find the Gate of Liberation.[/FONT]
ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT]ਸਭੁ[/FONT]ਕੋ[/FONT]ਉਪਰਿ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਆਚਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫॥ [/FONT]
Sachahu Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar ||5||[/FONT]
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||[/FONT]
ਸਭੁ[/FONT]ਕੋ[/FONT]ਊਚਾ[/FONT]ਆਖੀਐ[/FONT]ਨੀਚੁ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਦੀਸੈ[/FONT]ਕੋਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Sabh Ko Oochaa Aakheeai Neech N Dheesai Koe ||
[/FONT]Call everyone exalted; no one seems lowly.
[/FONT]ਇਕਨੈ[/FONT]ਭਾਂਡੇ[/FONT]ਸਾਜਿਐ[/FONT]ਇਕੁ[/FONT]ਚਾਨਣੁ[/FONT]ਤਿਹੁ[/FONT]ਲੋਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Eikanai Bhaanddae Saajiai Eik Chaanan Thihu Loe ||
[/FONT]The One Lord has fashioned the vessels, and His One Light pervades the three worlds.
[/FONT]ਕਰਮਿ[/FONT]ਮਿਲੈ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਪਾਈਐ[/FONT]ਧੁਰਿ[/FONT]ਬਖਸ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਮੇਟੈ[/FONT]ਕੋਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੬॥ [/FONT]Karam Milai Sach Paaeeai Dhhur Bakhas N Maettai Koe ||6||
Receiving His Grace, we obtain Truth. No one can erase His Primal Blessing. ||6||
[/FONT]ਾਧੁ[/FONT]ਮਿਲੈ[/FONT]ਸਾਧੂ[/FONT]ਜਨੈ[/FONT]ਸੰਤੋਖੁ[/FONT]ਵਸੈ[/FONT]ਗੁਰ[/FONT]ਭਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Saadhh Milai Saadhhoo Janai Santhokh Vasai Gur Bhaae ||
When one Holy person meets another Holy person, they abide in contentment, through the Love of the Guru.
[/FONT]ਅਕਥ[/FONT]ਕਥਾ[/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ[/FONT]ਜੇ[/FONT]ਸਤਿਗੁਰ[/FONT]ਮਾਹਿ[/FONT]ਸਮਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Akathh Kathhaa Veechaareeai Jae Sathigur Maahi Samaae ||
They contemplate the Unspoken Speech, merging in absorption in the True Guru.
[/FONT]ਪੀ[/FONT]ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ[/FONT]ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ[/FONT]ਦਰਗਹਿ[/FONT]ਪੈਧਾ[/FONT]ਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੭॥ [/FONT]Pee Anmrith Santhokhiaa Dharagehi Paidhhaa Jaae ||7||
Drinking in the Ambrosial Nectar, they are contented; they go to the Court of the Lord in robes of honor. ||7||
[/FONT]ਘਟਿ[/FONT]ਘਟਿ[/FONT]ਵਾਜੈ[/FONT]ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ[/FONT]ਅਨਦਿਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਬਦਿ[/FONT]ਸੁਭਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Ghatt Ghatt Vaajai Kinguree Anadhin Sabadh Subhaae ||
In each and every heart the Music of the Lord's Flute vibrates, night and day, with sublime love for the Shabad.
[/FONT]ਵਿਰਲੇ[/FONT]ਕਉ[/FONT]ਸੋਝੀ[/FONT]ਪਈ[/FONT]ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਮਝਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Viralae Ko Sojhee Pee Guramukh Man Samajhaae ||
Only those few who become Gurmukh understand this by instructing their minds.
[/FONT]ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਵੀਸਰੈ[/FONT]ਛੂਟੈ[/FONT]ਸਬਦੁ[/FONT]ਕਮਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੮॥੧੪॥ [/FONT]Naanak Naam N Veesarai Shhoottai Sabadh Kamaae ||8||14||
O Nanak, do not forget the Naam. Practicing the Shabad you shall be saved. ||8||14||
[/FONT]*ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ[/FONT]** ([/FONT]**ਮ[/FONT]**: [/FONT]**੧[/FONT]**) [/FONT]**ਗੁਰੂ[/FONT]**ਗ੍ਰੰਥ[/FONT]**ਸਾਹਿਬ[/FONT]** : [/FONT]**ਅੰਗ[/FONT]**੬੨[/FONT]**ਪੰ[/FONT]**. [/FONT]**੧੫[/FONT]*


*Let us look at one pungtee and the translation.*[/FONT]
*ਸਚਹੁ*[/FONT]*ਓਰੈ*[/FONT]*ਸਭੁ*[/FONT]*ਕੋ*[/FONT]*ਉਪਰਿ*[/FONT]*ਸਚੁ*[/FONT]*ਆਚਾਰੁ*[/FONT]*॥*[/FONT]*੫॥*[/FONT]* Sachahu Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar ||5||*[/FONT]
*Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||*[/FONT]

When we look at the gurbani words then the first words are ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT] . Here the words  mean not reaching Sach i.e. ' below knowing the sach' .

To confirm several sources  were checked. In gurbani Searcher android version there is differences  in Punjabi explanation and English translation.

In another site  gurugranthdarpan.com the Punjabi meaning of gurbani words are given the  meaning came up different from the translation.

Then I checked up the meaning in sankhya 2 of tika by Bhai veer Singh ji . Here the meaning stated is 
" Sach toh sab kuchh hethan heh, (eh) sach da achar( arthat naam da  simran  sab jogan,homan,tapan,dana,siahnpan teh vidya aadh toh) uchah  heh.

Based on this the possible  translation is “  All else ( yoga , havan , tapph ,charity etc)  is below reaching _Sach_ (truth) , the highest is  _Sach Achar_ ( the true deed – naam simran) “

Thus the the translation “Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living” does not in any way match the gurbani words. 

But this wrong translation has been picked up and often quoted by many. This is just one example.

The learning point here is that gurbani words translation does no justice to the original. 
Another word is Hukam. The meaning is only nearer  to the words will or command but not exactly same. Hukam exists  everywhere but like karta (the creator) is not openly perceptible. 
Same way The Mool Manter words are not translatable in true sense.
Better way would be to use original in  translation with a near translatable word or meaning in bracket.  This  would then be nearer to original.
The English language over the years has been adopting foreign language words. Why not the Gurbani words as well.
 My appeal to SPN members is examine this and adopt gurbani words use.
 Let SPN adopt the Gurbani words first. It is for the SPN members Sangat (the spiritual group ) to decide this. 

*Let us look at one pungtee and the translation.*[/FONT]
*ਸਚਹੁ  *[/FONT]*ਓਰੈ*[/FONT]*  ਸਭੁ*[/FONT]* ਕੋ*[/FONT]*  ਉਪਰਿ*[/FONT]* ਸਚੁ*[/FONT]*  ਆਚਾਰੁ*[/FONT]*॥*[/FONT]*੫॥
*[/FONT]* Sachahu Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar ||5||*[/FONT]
*Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||*[/FONT]

When we look at the gurbani words then the first words are ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT] . Here the words  mean not reaching Sach i.e. ' below knowing the sach' .

To confirm several sources  were checked. In gurbani Searcher android version there is differences  in Punjabi explanation and English translation.

In another site  gurugranthdarpan.com the Punjabi meaning of gurbani words are given the  meaning came up different from the translation.

Then I checked up the meaning in sankhya 2 of tika by Bhai veer Singh ji . Here the meaning stated is 
" Sach toh sab kuchh hethan heh, (eh) sach da achar( arthat naam da  simran  sab jogan,homan,tapan,dana,siahnpan teh vidya aadh toh) uchah  heh.

Based on this the possible  translation is “  All else ( yoga , havan , tapph ,charity etc)  is below reaching _Sach_ (truth) , the highest is  _Sach Achar_ ( the true deed – naam simran) “

Thus the the translation “Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living” does not in any way match the gurbani words. 

But this wrong translation has been picked up and often quoted by many. This is just one example.

The learning point here is that gurbani words translation does no justice to the original. 
Another word is Hukam. The meaning is only nearer  to the words will or command but not exactly same. Hukam exists  everywhere but like karta (the creator) is not openly perceptible. 

Same way The Mool Manter words are not translatable in true sense.
Better way would be to use original in  translation with a near translatable word or meaning in bracket.  This  would then be nearer to original.

The English language over the years has been adopting foreign language words. Why not the Gurbani words as well.

 *My appeal to SPN members is examine this and adopt gurbani words use.**
 Let SPN adopt the Gurbani words first. It is for the SPN members Sangat (the spiritual group ) to decide this. *


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## chazSingh (Jun 2, 2014)

thank you Gurmeet Ji for the amazing shabads that you have posted and the concerns about translations..

if there is one thing i have realized on my so far short journey through Gurbani and putting Gurbani into practice...is not to dwell too much on things i do not fully understand...

This journey has an amazing way to bring about understanding of gurbani concepts in ways we just couldn't imagine...

There are so many layers to truthful living..

me personally...i want to live as truthfully as possible...
but this *'living truthfully*' is changing every day as waheguru ji helps me realize the *'actual truth' *and then it starts to become *LIVING IN TRUTH *

God Bless you ji on your journey to realize this truth!

Thank you for posting on the thread


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## Luckysingh (Jun 3, 2014)

I understand that there is quite a difference between experiencing the _''absolute truth''_ and living truthfully.

The 'righteous living truthfully' is in dharma conduct, or as in per dharm khand in japji sahib,
It's like the starting point from the dharamsaal to which we can begin to progress to other khands via naam jap/simran.

The ''absolute truth'' as I describe it, is the pure feeling of divine love and truth that is like the heart lotus blossoming in gurbani.
Gurbani makes references to it as Hirda. hirdey kamal or the spiritual heart.
I also think of it as the seat of the soul or atma/paramatma within.

(may go off topic if i go into detail here, but it may need another thread).

As manmukhs, we let our Mind be the master of soul/atma.
A Gurmukh, lets the Atma/paramatma/god be the master of the Mind.

Thus, the gurmukh is letting the atma/god soul run the whole show.... and this is when you are in Pure HUKAM.

When 1st panj piara Bhai daya ram came forward, it was the pure love in hirda from the atma telling the mind to step forward.
When Guruji's gave shaheedi, it was also the same love telling mind to go.

This is way beyond ''righteous truthful living'', because this is Pure Hukam.


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## chazSingh (Jun 3, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> I understand that there is quite a difference between experiencing the _''absolute truth''_ and living truthfully.
> 
> The 'righteous living truthfully' is in dharma conduct, or as in per dharm khand in japji sahib,
> It's like the starting point from the dharamsaal to which we can begin to progress to other khands via naam jap/simran.
> ...



this is where i think it changing from *'truthfully living'* to *'living in truth'* with the flow of Hukam that pours from the soul/Atma/Paramatma

Thanks for posting ji


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## Luckysingh (Jun 3, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> this is where i think it changing from *'truthfully living'* to *'living in truth'* with the flow of Hukam that pours from the soul/Atma/Paramatma
> 
> Thanks for posting ji


 
I think I could see that you were going this way with your posts.
It's an experience and feeling that you have to encounter and it is very difficult to put into words.

So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous.

It's about getting absorbed in that Divine Love of Truth.
You feel the depth in this spiritual heart that is central in chest and to the right of the physical one !


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## chazSingh (Jun 3, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> I think I could see that you were going this way with your posts.
> It's an experience and feeling that you have to encounter and it is very difficult to put into words.
> 
> So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
> ...



once in that state of being as you describe above, i would imagine the act of doing* something righteous* isn't an option amongst other options...but the only option...something instinctual, something you do intuitively because it comes from deep within....from the soul/atma/paramatma as an attribute of Waheguru Ji...as an attribute of your true self...

until then however, trying to tip the balance from negative thoughts and actions, into positive thoughts and truthful actions via our perceived effort is definitely a must as Gurbani prescribes...

just my current feelings ji.

God Bless


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## Harry Haller (Jun 5, 2014)

Well gentlemen, congratulations are in order! between you all you have managed to put an entirely Vedic slant on one of the most Sikhi sayings going, namely that truthful living is nothing of the sort, I mean, lets face it guys, its so damn hard living in that truth, having to do truthful things, the right thing, but know what, I think I might try this new fangled Sikhi, so let me get this right, I can stop attempting to live truthfully, stop being honest with myself and others, and just wait until it comes naturally and does not need any effort at all, and, I can, like, achieve this by mumbling and stuff!

Brilliant! mystery solved, Yogi Bhajan I salute you, now what was one of his favourite sayings again, oh yeah, if you can't make it, fake it!


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## chazSingh (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Well gentlemen, congratulations are in order! between you all you have managed to put an entirely Vedic slant on one of the most Sikhi sayings going, namely that truthful living is nothing of the sort, I mean, lets face it guys, its so damn hard living in that truth, having to do truthful things, the right thing, but know what, I think I might try this new fangled Sikhi, so let me get this right, I can stop attempting to live truthfully, stop being honest with myself and others, and just wait until it comes naturally and does not need any effort at all, and, I can, like, achieve this by mumbling and stuff!
> 
> Brilliant! mystery solved, Yogi Bhajan I salute you, now what was one of his favourite sayings again, oh yeah, if you can't make it, fake it!




first of all.....

NO ONE has ONCE said you should not be trying to live truthfully, or make effort to live truthfully...so please stop making judgements...read the comments that people have said.

We should always try to tip the balance into a positive state..always...

second of all....

some people are naturally good people, honest, trustworthy, caring...that's all they know...that's who they are

others try to be truthful, nice, kind, caring, forgiving because their religion or people around them tell them to be so...but deep down they are not like this (Ego, anger, desire, greed, attachment) have a greater hold of them...fake

how does a person go from one to the other...from a fakester to the genuine article? something must need to change within that person...consciosness, greater understanding of life, of creation to allow this growth? greater conscious awareness of reality...

No one is talking about 'MUMBLING and STUFF" lol

it is your mind that cannot see the difference in mumbling...to uttering/meditating/Contemplating/embracing/enshrining/ the WORDS of GOD in your heart...and then becoming the words of Gurbani in your DAILY life....

but you go ahead and continue to categorize this all as just mere MUMBLING lol 

Sometimes i feel you are fighting bewteen what you read in Gurbani to what you want Gurbani to be for you..

but you are free to your opinion and your own experience of gurbani...as am I...
so please continue to post you comments.

For a start it would be good to hear where you think people have stated that no effort is required into truthful actions and should just sit around and do nothing until the change just happens within them.
Also what Vedic practices you think are going on, and where they have been stated.

Thank you ji


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## Harry Haller (Jun 5, 2014)

Oh you guys with your shouty capitals and your definitive inside knowledge on everything Sikhi!

my argument is very simple, living truthfully is hard, it is not easy, it is done through discipline, habit and desire, and if done long enough, becomes a habit, and becomes easier, your argument, correct me if I am wrong, is that it comes from mumbling, or as you call it 'naam simram', from grace, from hukam, my oh my how convenient!




> So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
> is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous.



there you go Chazji one quote 



> Sometimes i feel you are fighting bewteen what you read in Gurbani to what you want Gurbani to be for you..



No I am just countering the airy fairy new age interpretations you guys keep posting, my big sis now deceased would have had little time for it, as she had little time to counter it, but me, I have all the time in the world, its called debate, discussion, you know, where someone disagrees with what you have written and writes something contrary, now you can either shout and scream and call me a heretic, which suits me fine, or you can leave everytime you find something you do not agree with, which also suits me fine, or you can stay and calmly discuss, which suits me better, as people reading these posts get a balanced view of what is going on.



> Also what Vedic practices you think are going on, and where they have been stated.



Sikhism is in my view a pragmatic religion, its very very simple, I think you guys like to overcomplicate matters, to make it harder to understand, I think there is an elitism going on, you use words I find hard to understand, and concepts that make no sense to me, maybe I am just not smart enough for your brand of Sikhi!

sounds vedic to me! lol


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## gur_meet (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Sikhism is in my view a pragmatic religion, its very very simple, I think you guys like to overcomplicate matters, to make it harder to understand, I think there is an elitism going on, you use words I find hard to understand, and concepts that make no sense to me, maybe I am just not smart enough for your brand of Sikhi!
> 
> sounds vedic to me! lol



Sikhi definitely is very pragmatic. 
Gurbani words are simple for everyone to understand . Here is an example :

ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Eae      Man Maeriaa Thoo Sadhaa Rahu Har Naalae ||
O      my mind, remain always with the Lord.
*ਰਾਮਕਲੀ      ਅਨੰਦ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੭ ਪੰ. ੪* 

We read and recite these words daily . Simple words. 
What are your views . How this can be done ?


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## chazSingh (Jun 5, 2014)

Oh you guys with your shouty capitals and your definitive inside knowledge on everything Sikhi!

appologies with the capitals..i use the capitals to highlight something sometimes...not to come across as shouty...appologies

my argument is very simple, living truthfully is hard, it is not easy,  it is done through discipline, habit and desire, and if done long  enough, becomes a habit, and becomes easier, your argument, correct me  if I am wrong, is that it comes from mumbling, or as you call it 'naam  simram', from grace, from hukam, my oh my how convenient!

have to correct you here....

on this thread we are discussing one view of truthful living i.e. "truthful/righteous deeds, honesty, kindness etc etc' 

to 

living in Truth: to live amongst all once you have been graced with the experience of the TRUTH of reality which is revealed within yourself (as gurbani also describes)

we are not just talking about actions that become habit and becomes a part of your character.

so please discuss the two...and your opinions on both..
  Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous.                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
there you go Chazji one quote 

Quote is invalid to your argument lol

We all do righteous things in our lives...and we should continue to do so which i have mentioned in my previous posts...

can i then say i have experienced absolute TRUTH, that god has revealed the complete TRUTH of EVERYTHING to me...

no... until then i am not LIVING IN TRUTH regardless of all the great wonderful righteous things i do...

it is also a righteous thing to go seek the truth of everything..of creation of reality and taste it for yourself...that to me is also part of righteous living...i owe it to myself to not be living in a fake dream of how i currently see the world but to know the absolute truth...otherwise my life has gone in vain.

  Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              Sometimes i feel you are fighting bewteen what you read in Gurbani to what you want Gurbani to be for you..                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
No I am just countering the airy  fairy new age interpretations you guys keep posting, my big sis now  deceased would have had little time for it, as she had little time to  counter it, but me, I have all the time in the world, its called debate,  discussion, you know, where someone disagrees with what you have  written and writes something contrary, now you can either shout and  scream and call me a heretic, which suits me fine, or you can leave  everytime you find something you do not agree with, which also suits me  fine, or you can stay and calmly discuss, which suits me better, as  people reading these posts get a balanced view of what is going on.

always an open discussion...difference is i agree with your views of truthful living as you posted in your first post..that is obviously a part of sikhi

you on the other hand just slap a tag of Vedic, Hairy Fairy on anything that remotely sounds mystic or a little 'crazy'

i will post a shabd from Gurbani that you will probably state is just full of hairy fairy vedic nonsense or something...but i will post it in a new thread so we can discuss this without going off topic here...

 
  Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              Also what Vedic practices you think are going on, and where they have been stated.                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
Sikhism is in my view a pragmatic  religion, its very very simple, I think you guys like to overcomplicate  matters, to make it harder to understand, I think there is an elitism  going on, you use words I find hard to understand, and concepts that  make no sense to me, maybe I am just not smart enough for your brand of  Sikhi!

sounds vedic to me! lol

i think you are just agreeing with Gurbani...in that many of sikhi's ideas, experiences and concepts are way beyond the intellect...and can only be experienced first hand and 'as hard as steel' to put into words...

for example..."_Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is revealed within the home of one's own heart"

_i mean, can we really fathom what this, or what it will be like...never...not until it happens. but again...it just sounds airy fairy and should just be discounted...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 5, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Sikhi definitely is very pragmatic.
> Gurbani words are simple for everyone to understand . Here is an example :
> 
> ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
> ...



let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!

well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?


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## chazSingh (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> No I am just countering the airy fairy new age interpretations you guys keep posting,



Also ji,

What part of what myself and some members write...do you deem as being airy fairy...
for further discussion it is good to know what you find airy fairy new age...so that we are all on the right page


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## chazSingh (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!
> 
> well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?



but Truth is such a open word...
just speaking the truth? about what? about day to day things? a great thing to do...i agree...

can i experience the Truth of existance thereby living in Truth (true reality) by mere good deeds or righteous living done through personal effort and habit?

well it will create a good, positive, truthful environment for me to seek the Truth...rather than getting involved in corruption, greed, anger, hate, dishonesty...

so you are definitely correct on this in my opinion.

the mumbling...remember...these are not normal words and vibrations...and we are hoping that these words and vibrations that we are presented with in the outerworld...help to connect our consciousness to the same vibrations/Shabad that is flowing within your being...within yourself...through which we are hoping we learn of the absolute truth.

*so what you call mumbling.....i can only describe as something so much more profoundly amazing beyond words...

on the outside...of course it will look like mumbling lol (and people will judge it as
mumbling)....

on the inside however...well...that's a completely diffferent story* 

This sounds very airy fairy  but i truely believe in what gurbani says.


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## gur_meet (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!
> 
> well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?



I think there is a  basic difference here.

The mumbling you talk about and simran as advised by guruji in gurbani are different.

I would call Mumbaling as that which is just repeating in mind. No involvement of heat and concentration. One starts and ends something without it bringing any change.

The Simran which Guruji advice has feeling of inner love attached with it. There is concentration on words. There is a thought or idea attached. 
Simran is living the gurbani.Only a broader view of Truthful Living can enable a person to live gurbani.

If gurbani says :

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Gur      Maerai Sang Sadhaa Hai Naalae ||
My      Guru is always with me, near at hand.
ਸਿਮਰਿ      ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Simar      Simar This Sadhaa Samhaalae ||1|| Rehaao ||
Meditating,      meditating in remembrance on Him, I cherish Him forever. ||1||Pause||
*ਆਸਾ      (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੯੪ ਪੰ. ੩* 

Then simran is required here. The  Simran is to feel the presence of Guru within. Keep doing this simran. This is how communion with Shabad Guru within starts. An intuitive guidance.

This is simran.

Mere repetition of shabad words without any feeling or direction would be termed mumbling.


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## kggr001 (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!
> 
> well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?



If you would mumble that, you would achive nothing, that part in Gurbani is about Guru(enlightened person) saying that his mind remains always with the Guru. 

We should all try to live in truth. Living in the truth is very hard it's harder then lifting the heaviest boulder on earth literally and figuratively speaking.
This world is like a picture painted in our heads that we can't take away, however like gurbani mentions it, it's nothing more then a illusion(something not permanent) only the lord himself is permanent. 

Like I've mentioned in the other posts, I believe that religion is just there to keep you motivated on the path. Like when I read the gurbani and read about how Guru's lived beyond the illusion of this world, I too want to reach that point where I can shatter that wall with that picture(illusion), and live in the truth.

Sewa, sharing and meditation can help you living in the truth, what sewa does is makes you feel lower then other people, meaning that it gradually takes away you _ego_(pride), at first you might have some _anger_ of doing sewa, but in the long run it will turn into acceptance and you won't feel anger anymore. Sharing is also important it helps you control your _greed_ and _attachment_. Then there is meditation which seperates you from the worldly illusions. Doing it often will make you feel in your daily life that this world is nothing more then a illusion.


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## chazSingh (Jun 5, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> If you would mumble that you would achive nothing, that part in Gurbani is about Guru(enlightened person) saying that his mind remains always with the Guru.
> 
> We should all try to live in truth. Living in the truth is very hard it's harder then lifting the heaviest boulder on earth literally and figuratively speaking.
> This world is like a picture painted in our heads that we can't take away, however like gurbani mentions it, it's nothing more then a illusion(something not permanent) only the lord himself is permanent.
> ...



Thanks you ji..

i wish i could right so clearly as yourself


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## kggr001 (Jun 5, 2014)

Also I want to add something.

Lords greatness doesn't have to be expressed verbally, like it's often mentioned in GGS ji that the lord is formless, beyond birth and self existant, limitless and infinite, if you start imagining him you will fail no matter how many times you try and how hard you try, simply cause he is beyond our comprehension, however you did praise him by realising his transcendence and greatness with your mind and nothing verbally could express that.

When your reading the gurbani concentrated(serious), your praising the lord more by realising things like I've mentioned above, then your verbally praising him.


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## Sherdil (Jun 5, 2014)

harry haller said:


> 1. to be on the outside as you are in the inside
> 2. to not be hypocritical
> 3. to follow the laws of truth, to implement them and live them
> 
> the laws of truth are the wisdom encapsulated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so living them is different to japping them, to really embrace them so they become habit is to me, what being a Sikh is all about



I feel Harry ji is on to something. Indeed, recognizing truth and living truthfully are separate  matters. Perhaps living truthfully is simply living without hypocrisy. In the famous “Fools argue over meat and flesh” shabadh, Guru ji was highlighting that very same hypocrisy, which arises from a lack of understanding about the world around us. *(Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom)*. I believe this shabadh cuts to the very heart of the topic:


 (page 1290)

ਮਃ  ੧  ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:
ਮਾਸੁ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਮੂਰਖੁ  ਝਗੜੇ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਜਾਣੈ  ॥
मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥
Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
ਕਉਣੁ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਕਉਣੁ  ਸਾਗੁ  ਕਹਾਵੈ  ਕਿਸੁ  ਮਹਿ  ਪਾਪ  ਸਮਾਣੇ  ॥
कउणु मासु कउणु सागु कहावै किसु महि पाप समाणे ॥
Ka▫uṇ mās ka▫uṇ sāg kahāvai kis mėh pāp samāṇe.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
ਗੈਂਡਾ  ਮਾਰਿ  ਹੋਮ  ਜਗ  ਕੀਏ  ਦੇਵਤਿਆ  ਕੀ  ਬਾਣੇ  ॥
गैंडा मारि होम जग कीए देवतिआ की बाणे ॥
Gaiŉdā mār hom jag kī▫e ḏeviṯi▫ā kī bāṇe.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
ਮਾਸੁ  ਛੋਡਿ  ਬੈਸਿ  ਨਕੁ  ਪਕੜਹਿ  ਰਾਤੀ  ਮਾਣਸ  ਖਾਣੇ  ॥
मासु छोडि बैसि नकु पकड़हि राती माणस खाणे ॥
Mās cẖẖod bais nak pakṛėh rāṯī māṇas kẖāṇe.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
ਫੜੁ  ਕਰਿ  ਲੋਕਾਂ  ਨੋ  ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਸੂਝੈ  ॥
फड़ु करि लोकां नो दिखलावहि गिआनु धिआनु नही सूझै ॥
Faṛ kar lokāŉ no ḏikẖlāvahi gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī sūjẖai.
They  practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do  not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
ਨਾਨਕ  ਅੰਧੇ  ਸਿਉ  ਕਿਆ  ਕਹੀਐ  ਕਹੈ  ਨ  ਕਹਿਆ  ਬੂਝੈ  ॥
नानक अंधे सिउ किआ कहीऐ कहै न कहिआ बूझै ॥
Nānak anḏẖe si▫o ki▫ā kahī▫ai kahai na kahi▫ā būjẖai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
ਅੰਧਾ  ਸੋਇ  ਜਿ  ਅੰਧੁ  ਕਮਾਵੈ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਰਿਦੈ  ਸਿ  ਲੋਚਨ  ਨਾਹੀ  ॥
अंधा सोइ जि अंधु कमावै तिसु रिदै सि लोचन नाही ॥
Anḏẖā so▫e jė anḏẖ kamāvai ṯis riḏai sė locẖan nāhī.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
ਮਾਤ  ਪਿਤਾ  ਕੀ  ਰਕਤੁ  ਨਿਪੰਨੇ  ਮਛੀ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਨ  ਖਾਂਹੀ  ॥
मात पिता की रकतु निपंने मछी मासु न खांही ॥
Māṯ piṯā kī rakaṯ nipanne macẖẖī mās na kẖāŉhī.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ  ਪੁਰਖੈ  ਜਾਂ  ਨਿਸਿ  ਮੇਲਾ  ਓਥੈ  ਮੰਧੁ  ਕਮਾਹੀ  ॥
इसत्री पुरखै जां निसि मेला ओथै मंधु कमाही ॥
Isṯarī purkẖai jāŉ nis melā othai manḏẖ kamāhī.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਨਿੰਮੇ  ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਜੰਮੇ  ਹਮ  ਮਾਸੈ  ਕੇ  ਭਾਂਡੇ  ॥
मासहु निमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥
Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāŉde.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ਕਛੁ  ਸੂਝੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਚਤੁਰੁ  ਕਹਾਵੈ  ਪਾਂਡੇ  ॥
गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāŉde.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
ਬਾਹਰ  ਕਾ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਮੰਦਾ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਘਰ  ਕਾ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਚੰਗੇਰਾ  ॥
बाहर का मासु मंदा सुआमी घर का मासु चंगेरा ॥
Bāhar kā mās manḏā su▫āmī gẖar kā mās cẖangerā.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
ਜੀਅ  ਜੰਤ  ਸਭਿ  ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਹੋਏ  ਜੀਇ  ਲਇਆ  ਵਾਸੇਰਾ  ॥
जीअ जंत सभि मासहु होए जीइ लइआ वासेरा ॥
Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ māsahu ho▫e jī▫e la▫i▫ā vāserā.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
ਅਭਖੁ  ਭਖਹਿ  ਭਖੁ  ਤਜਿ  ਛੋਡਹਿ  ਅੰਧੁ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਜਿਨ  ਕੇਰਾ  ॥
अभखु भखहि भखु तजि छोडहि अंधु गुरू जिन केरा ॥
Abẖakẖ bẖakẖėh bẖakẖ ṯaj cẖẖodėh anḏẖ gurū jin kerā.
They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.
ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਨਿੰਮੇ  ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਜੰਮੇ  ਹਮ  ਮਾਸੈ  ਕੇ  ਭਾਂਡੇ  ॥
मासहु निमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥
Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāŉde.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ਕਛੁ  ਸੂਝੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਚਤੁਰੁ  ਕਹਾਵੈ  ਪਾਂਡੇ  ॥
गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāŉde.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
ਮਾਸੁ  ਪੁਰਾਣੀ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਕਤੇਬੀ  ਚਹੁ  ਜੁਗਿ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਕਮਾਣਾ  ॥
मासु पुराणी मासु कतेबीं चहु जुगि मासु कमाणा ॥
Mās purāṇī mās ketābīŉ cẖahu jug mās kamāṇā.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
ਜਜਿ  ਕਾਜਿ  ਵੀਆਹਿ  ਸੁਹਾਵੈ  ਓਥੈ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਸਮਾਣਾ  ॥
जजि काजि वीआहि सुहावै ओथै मासु समाणा ॥
Jaj kāj vī▫āhi suhāvai othai mās samāṇā.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ  ਪੁਰਖ  ਨਿਪਜਹਿ  ਮਾਸਹੁ  ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ  ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾਂ  ॥
इसत्री पुरख निपजहि मासहु पातिसाह सुलतानां ॥
Isṯarī purakẖ nipjahi māsahu pāṯisāh sulṯānāŉ.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
ਜੇ  ਓਇ  ਦਿਸਹਿ  ਨਰਕਿ  ਜਾਂਦੇ  ਤਾਂ  ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਕਾ  ਦਾਨੁ  ਨ  ਲੈਣਾ  ॥
जे ओइ दिसहि नरकि जांदे तां उन्ह का दानु न लैणा ॥
Je o▫e ḏisėh narak jāŉḏe ṯāŉ unĥ kā ḏān na laiṇā.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.
ਦੇਂਦਾ  ਨਰਕਿ  ਸੁਰਗਿ  ਲੈਦੇ  ਦੇਖਹੁ  ਏਹੁ  ਧਿਙਾਣਾ  ॥
देंदा नरकि सुरगि लैदे देखहु एहु धिङाणा ॥
Ḏeŉḏā narak surag laiḏe ḏekẖhu ehu ḏẖińāṇā.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.
ਆਪਿ  ਨ  ਬੂਝੈ  ਲੋਕ  ਬੁਝਾਏ  ਪਾਂਡੇ  ਖਰਾ  ਸਿਆਣਾ  ॥
आपि न बूझै लोक बुझाए पांडे खरा सिआणा ॥
Āp na būjẖai lok bujẖā▫e pāŉde kẖarā si▫āṇā.
You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.
ਪਾਂਡੇ  ਤੂ  ਜਾਣੈ  ਹੀ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਕਿਥਹੁ  ਮਾਸੁ  ਉਪੰਨਾ  ॥
पांडे तू जाणै ही नाही किथहु मासु उपंना ॥
Pāŉde ṯū jāṇai hī nāhī kithhu mās upannā.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.
ਤੋਇਅਹੁ  ਅੰਨੁ  ਕਮਾਦੁ  ਕਪਾਹਾਂ  ਤੋਇਅਹੁ  ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ  ਗੰਨਾ  ॥
तोइअहु अंनु कमादु कपाहां तोइअहु त्रिभवणु गंना ॥
Ŧo▫i▫ahu ann kamāḏ kapāhāŉ ṯo▫i▫ahu ṯaribẖavaṇ gannā.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.
ਤੋਆ  ਆਖੈ  ਹਉ  ਬਹੁ  ਬਿਧਿ  ਹਛਾ  ਤੋਐ  ਬਹੁਤੁ  ਬਿਕਾਰਾ  ॥
तोआ आखै हउ बहु बिधि हछा तोऐ बहुतु बिकारा ॥
Ŧo▫ā ākẖai ha▫o baho biḏẖ hacẖẖā ṯoai bahuṯ bikārā.
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.
ਏਤੇ  ਰਸ  ਛੋਡਿ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਕਹੈ  ਵਿਚਾਰਾ  ॥੨॥
एते रस छोडि होवै संनिआसी नानकु कहै विचारा ॥२॥
Ėṯe ras cẖẖod hovai sani▫āsī Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||


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## Luckysingh (Jun 5, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> . In the famous “Fools argue over meat and flesh” shabadh, Guru ji was highlighting that very same hypocrisy, which arises from a lack of understanding about the world around us. *(Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom)*. I believe this shabadh cuts to the very heart of the topic:


 
I think that *Ghian Dhian* is much more than that...

*Ghian*= is the divine knowledge/wisdom/truth that comes WITH *Dhian*=which is focus, meditating on the name.(jinnee naam dhyiaaa..)

The shabad you quoted is calling the one who hasn't meditated and therefore not obtained the internal divine wisdom as the ''fool''....
The whole shabad is misused for justifying meat or not.
The deeper essence of the shabad is not even about the meat is it ??
(don't want to go off topic here) 

g*iaa*n dhh*iaa*n k*i*shh karam n j*aa*n*aa* s*aa*r n j*aa*n*aa* th*ae*r*ee* |
sabh th*ae* vadd*aa* sath*i*g*u*r n*aa*nak j*i*n kal r*aa*kh*ee* m*ae*r*e" *
_I know nothing about wisdom, meditation and good deeds; I know nothing about Your excellence._
_Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this age governed by Kal(kalyug)_


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## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2014)

> I think that Ghian Dhian is much more than that...



of course you do, it suits your agenda



> Ghian= is the divine knowledge/wisdom/truth that comes WITH Dhian=which is focus, meditating on the name.(jinnee naam dhyiaaa..)



but Sherdilji thinks that 



> (Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom)



personally I feel you have once again missed the point and I would go with Sherdilji's interpretation



> The whole shabad is misused for justifying meat or not.
> The deeper essence of the shabad is not even about the meat is it ??



well if you read his post, you will see the words



> In the famous “Fools argue over meat and flesh” shabadh, Guru ji was highlighting that very same hypocrisy, which arises from a lack of understanding about the world around us. (Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom). I believe this shabadh cuts to the very heart of the topic:



so your observation is moot...

The key issue here is the translation of the word Dhian, you believe it to be a reference to mumbling, Sherdilji feels it is attention, 

I keep coming back to Vedic practices because there has been an agenda for quite some time now in an effort to show Sikhi in either an Abrahamic or Vedic light, funnily enough an Islamic light does not seem to exist, but then back in the day, at least you knew where you stood because the Islamic attempts at assimilation were much less subtle.

The point is that Sikhism is supposed to be, as I have said, a pragmatic way of life free of superstition and mumbo jumbo, its pretty straightforward and nicely encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I believe one can grasp the basic foundations of Sikhism from such. 

Unfortunately, this has never been enough, not then, and not today, there will always be forces that wish to undermine this simplicity and lack of mumbo jumbo by claiming that there are tenth eyes, coiled serpants, and breakdancing dwarves that need to be taken into account, and by focusing, meditating and using mental gymnastics, a whole secret new wisdom can be obtained.

The thread is to live in truth, I fail to see why the subject of hocus pocus chanting, meditations etc are even present in this thread, to live in the truth is to simply be truthful and live truthfully. What is so hard about this concept? I wake up in the morning, I keep within the speed limit, I feed my animals, I go to work , I open my shop, I am honest with the people that come in, I don't rip anyone off, I don't ogle women, I treat people with respect, I eat simply, I do not buy stolen computers, if I say I will do something, I try and keep to my word, if I see someone in trouble, I try and help , that to me is the foundation of truthful living, why are we trying to turn such a simple concept into something so complicated?


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## kggr001 (Jun 6, 2014)

@harry haller ji, I suggest you to read/listen this shabad: Slok Mahalla 9


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I suggest you to read/listen this shabad: Slok Mahalla 9



Thank you for posting this amazing video and description of Slok Mahalla....i'm sat at work listening to this and contemplating it...truely amazing and enrapturing..

Thank you ji

God Bless


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2014)

Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                      Originally Posted by *harry haller* 

 
_The  point is that Sikhism is supposed to be, as I have said, a pragmatic  way of life free of superstition and mumbo jumbo, its pretty  straightforward and nicely encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I believe  one can grasp the basic foundations of Sikhism from such. 

Unfortunately, this has never been enough, not then, and not today,  there will always be forces that wish to undermine this simplicity and  lack of mumbo jumbo by claiming that there are tenth eyes, coiled  serpants, and breakdancing dwarves that need to be taken into account,  and by focusing, meditating and using mental gymnastics, a whole secret  new wisdom can be obtained.

The thread is to live in truth, I fail to see why the subject of hocus  pocus chanting, meditations etc are even present in this thread, to live  in the truth is to simply be truthful and live truthfully. What is so  hard about this concept? I wake up in the morning, I keep within the  speed limit, I feed my animals, I go to work , I open my shop, I am  honest with the people that come in, I don't rip anyone off, I don't  ogle women, I treat people with respect, I eat simply, I do not buy  stolen computers, if I say I will do something, I try and keep to my  word, if I see someone in trouble, I try and help , that to me is the  foundation of truthful living, why are we trying to turn such a simple  concept into something so complicated?_
 </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
Harry Ji,

Truthful living in the way you describe is obviously a major part of sikhi...we can all agree to this.

But Gurbani says majority of population (me, you, probably everyone in this sangat) is trapped in this creation, attached to it...and we put all our faith in the creation and have completely fogotten the creator...so in escence we are not *living in truth* we are living in our *ego created lie*.

No matter how truthful you are, and how great your actions are...unless we break from the illusion of the creation...the attachment to it, thinking that what we see, hear, touch, smell, and taste is *ALL that exists. *Then we are still living a lie. but truthful actions will create an environment for you to start seeking the absolute truth...

It is not us (humans) that are manufacturing terms and concepts like the tenth gate (dassam Duar), coiled kundalini, inner vision, connection to inner shabad, realms, the hearing of unstruck sound current (within you), guiding your consciousness/attention back to the mool...

this is *all in gurbani*, and whilst we don;t know exactly what all this is, it is still there in Gurbani...and it inspires us, and makes us wonder...and the thirst starts to increase within to know the *Truth*.

in reality you are not disagreeing with us, you are disagreeing with Gurbani and what it portrays to us...because it is Guru JI saying all this no matter how crazy, new age, airy fairy it all sounds...

Body is the GuruDwara...the shabad resonated within it...turn your attention within and attach to it, and what is within Gurbani will no longer sound airy fairy...it will be shown as being the *truth*...living in *Truth* and we will all stand in amazement and utter the words "Wah, Wah...Wahe...Waheguru"


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## kggr001 (Jun 6, 2014)

harry haller said:


> The point is that Sikhism is supposed to be, as I have said, a pragmatic way of life free of superstition and mumbo jumbo, its pretty straightforward and nicely encapsulated in the Mool Mantra, I believe one can grasp the basic foundations of Sikhism from such.



Sikhism tells us many times, that one should free himself from Ego, Greed, Lust, Anger, Attachment. As a human we have a gift thats Higher Consciousness, which we can free ourselves from those 5 thieves, if one does not free himself. Then whats the difference between that human and an animal? They both are controlled by there emotions.



harry haller said:


> and by focusing, meditating and using mental gymnastics, a whole secret new wisdom can be obtained.



That depends on how you interpret it, when one meditates he releases himself from this world literally and figuratively speaking. Yes in that experience you gain new Wisdom you start understanding things(realise the illusion),  If you meant with "New Wisdom" that someone tomorrow can build an Alien Spaceship after years of meditating, then I agree with you that he won't get that wisdom.



harry haller said:


> The thread is to live in truth, I fail to see why the subject of hocus pocus chanting, meditations etc are even present in this thread, to live in the truth is to simply be truthful and live truthfully. What is so hard about this concept? I wake up in the morning, I keep within the speed limit, I feed my animals, I go to work , I open my shop, I am honest with the people that come in, I don't rip anyone off, I don't ogle women, I treat people with respect, I eat simply, I do not buy stolen computers, if I say I will do something, I try and keep to my word, if I see someone in trouble, I try and help , that to me is the foundation of truthful living, why are we trying to turn such a simple concept into something so complicated?



One can only live in truth if he first understands the truth(that this is all is nothing more then an illusion), what you do is living a honest life which is what Sikhism also teaches us.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> @harry haller ji, I suggest you to read/listen this shabad: Slok Mahalla 9



Let me be clear about my stance

Reincarnation
Multiple wives of the Gurus
authenticity of the Dasam Granth
intervention of God in any way shape of form in our lives
the ability to further ones knowledge through meditation
non eating of meat in an effort to be clean and pure

do not represent the truth to me, so I would not waste my time perusing a website or putting my faith in content from a website that considered the above the truth, I am happy to provide quotes from the website to back the above.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2014)

> Truthful living in the way you describe is obviously a major part of sikhi...we can all agree to this.



oh goody



> But Gurbani says majority of population (me, you, probably everyone in this sangat) is trapped in this creation, attached to it...and we put all our faith in the creation and have completely fogotten the creator...so in escence we are not living in truth we are living in our ego created lie.



hmmm there is that Vedic slant again, I see god in everything and everyone, so do enlighten me as to how I have forgotten god?



> No matter how truthful you are, and how great your actions are...unless we break from the illusion of the creation...the attachment to it, thinking that what we see, hear, touch, smell, and taste is ALL that exists. Then we are still living a lie. but truthful actions will create an environment for you to start seeking the absolute truth...



I have no interest in the absolute truth as you know it, I aim for a more pragmatic and realistic truth, which breeds understanding, hopefully wisdom, perception, and the ability to use these facets to help more of Creation, I guess you guys are seeking membership to the mukti club where you can all float around on your own self importance, good luck with that one



> It is not us (humans) that are manufacturing terms and concepts like the tenth gate (dassam Duar), coiled kundalini, inner vision, connection to inner shabad, realms, the hearing of unstruck sound current (within you), guiding your consciousness/attention back to the mool...



I have already debated the coiled serpent thing with you, and I have already produced bani where it is mocked, do you wish me to do this again, or shall I just post a link to the last time we had this discussion?



> this is all in gurbani, and whilst we don;t know exactly what all this is, it is still there in Gurbani...and it inspires us, and makes us wonder...and the thirst starts to increase within to know the Truth.



You want to know the truth, I just want to live the truth, maybe when you have finished being thirsty we can debate



> in reality you are not disagreeing with us, you are disagreeing with Gurbani and what it portrays to us...because it is Guru JI saying all this no matter how crazy, new age, airy fairy it all sounds...



Yes it is Guruji with a helpful hand from some helpful interpretation from some very helpful souls!



> Body is the GuruDwara...the shabad resonated within it...turn your attention within and attach to it, and what is within Gurbani will no longer sound airy fairy...it will be shown as being the truth...living in Truth and we will all stand in amazement and utter the words "Wah, Wah...Wahe...Waheguru"



and for your next trick, do you think you can pull a rabbit from a hat, or something a bit more entertaining?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 6, 2014)

> That depends on how you interpret it, when one meditates he releases himself from this world literally and figuratively speaking. Yes in that experience you gain new Wisdom you start understanding things



ahhh meditation is like smoking pot!


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2014)

chazSingh Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> 			 				Body is the GuruDwara...the shabad resonated within it...turn your  attention within and attach to it, and what is within Gurbani will no  longer sound airy fairy...it will be shown as being the truth...living  in Truth and we will all stand in amazement and utter the words "Wah,  Wah...Wahe...Waheguru" 			 		</td> </tr> </tbody></table> 


harry haller said:


> and for your next trick, do you think you can pull a rabbit from a hat, or something a bit more entertaining?



Harry JI,

I think by what you have just stated above, i think it is clear you have completely missed one of the most repeated things in gurbani...so many times this is repeated, but i will leave you with just one quote...

_*I have quit searching outside; the Guru has shown me that God is within the home of my own heart*_

Good Luck ji on your journey of sikhi...our destination is the same...god bless

Waheguru


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2014)

harry haller said:


> ahhh meditation is like smoking pot!



in my once devious past...i have tried many drugs...
definatily not proud of it...

BUT, i guess i can answer you question here due to my experience of both...

Meditation of shabad is not even close to smoking pot.. lol the two are poles apart.

I thank god that i can distinguish between the two, and that he pulled me out of that mess...

Waheguru.


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## kggr001 (Jun 6, 2014)

I respect your believes 0

I will say the same as ChazSingh ji, good Luck on your journey of sikhi.


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## Sherdil (Jun 6, 2014)

Somehow this thread turned into the same Naam Simran debate we were having before, with the usual suspects. I have no problem if you guys wanna meditate, but personally I don't see the need, nor do I think it is essential for a Sikh to become truthful or live truthfully. In that meat eating shabadh I posted, Guru ji is talking to the pandit and telling him he does not have gian or dhian. They have translated those words to mean spiritual wisdom and meditation. Literally gian and dhian mean wisdom and attention respectively. Knowing every creature has the light of God within it is "gian". Remembering that when you deal with people is "dhian". This is the real meditation. The meditation you guys are talking about existed way before Sikhi was created. That's probably what the Pandits did also, but guru ji is clearly saying they do not know the truth nor do they live truthfully. 

I have tried meditating and didn't gain much from it. I know more people than not who feel the same. It's a great stress reliever and it calms you down, but I feel that my understanding of Sikhi has grown a lot more in the past 6 months I have been visiting this forum and having discussions with people. My gian and my dhian have both improved. 

What you guys are prescribing is not a means to understand truth or live truthfully. Truth comes from reading, contemplating and discussing. It does not manifest itself on its own. Had you guys continued in your meditation, instead of coming onto this forum and having discussions, your understanding would not have grown either. Even Guru ji traveled the subcontinent and the middle-east in search of spiritual people to have discussions with. Gurbani is created from those discussions. It was not revealed in a meditative trance. 

So I would request the Naam jap gang to refrain from putting a Naam jap spin on every intellectual discussion that comes up on this forum. It takes away from the debate and turns it into a frivolous back and forth. Frankly, it saps the fun out of coming onto this forum. 

God bless


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Somehow this thread turned into the same Naam Simran debate we were having before, with the usual suspects.



Unfortunately some topics do overlap...
from what i remember of this forum and comments, most people were talking about their views of truthful living and living in truth..until harry ji mentioned mediation, airy fairy stuff.. 



> I have no problem if you guys wanna meditate, but personally I don't see the need, nor do I think it is essential for a Sikh to become truthful or live truthfully.


Am i reading this correctly 




> In that meat eating shabadh I posted, Guru ji is talking to the pandit and telling him he does not have gian or dhian. They have translated those words to mean spiritual wisdom and meditation. Literally gian and dhian mean wisdom and attention respectively. Knowing every creature has the light of God within it is "gian". Remembering that when you deal with people is "dhian". This is the real meditation. The meditation you guys are talking about existed way before Sikhi was created. That's probably what the Pandits did also, but guru ji is clearly saying they do not know the truth nor do they live truthfully.


that's great...you have learned that there are many forms of meditation....keep doing it...



> I have tried meditating and didn't gain much from it. I know more people than not who feel the same. It's a great stress reliever and it calms you down, but I feel that my understanding of Sikhi has grown a lot more in the past 6 months I have been visiting this forum and having discussions with people. My gian and my dhian have both improved.


excellent, i can say i have also learned a lot..



> What you guys are prescribing is not a means to understand truth or live truthfully. Truth comes from reading, contemplating and discussing. It does not manifest itself on its own


I did the same (reading, contemplating and discussing) with my wife when we had booked to visit to go to Australia on our honeymoon. was great...i did a lot of imagining. it helped me get excited about my destination, about my journey ahead...it was very worth while
In the end nothing compared nor matched to actually going there 




> Had you guys continued in your meditation, instead of coming onto this forum and having discussions, your understanding would not have grown either.


Do you honestly think we were sat in a dark room hibernating and meditating 24/7 with our eyes closed and then one evening we came across a thing called a computer and logged on and started living and discussing? lol lol i an many others that meditate on shabad live normal lives and participate in society  lol



> Even Guru ji traveled the subcontinent and the middle-east in search of spiritual people to have discussions with. Gurbani is created from those discussions. It was not revealed in a meditative trance.


Yup, Guru Ji sure did...

yes Guru Ji's came across other writings from other bhagats, saints etc  that they recognised as also coming from the source...and included them  in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...

But how on this beautiful earth can you say how Gurbani came to Guru Ji...Guru Ji already tries to explain in the best possible way how Gurbani came to him...and it was not from other people. lol




> So I would request the Naam jap gang to refrain from putting a Naam jap spin on every intellectual discussion that comes up on this forum. It takes away from the debate and turns it into a frivolous back and forth. Frankly, it saps the fun out of coming onto this forum.


Topic is about truthful living and living in truth...you already have stated that you *don't* believe that a sikh should aspire to both...so thanks for your input...which is your opinion....so let others have their own spin on things as well... 

The reason why people are so passionate about meditating and naam Simran is because they are having a very deep experience of God within themselves...and some of the airy fairy stuff that people think in Gurbani is just to 'wacky' to be real...is actually very real for the truth seeker...

who on earth would not be passionate about that...

Back to the topic...


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## chazSingh (Jun 6, 2014)

Such an amazing Shabad which describes creation (as the majority see it) as False...

It describes how only a few know of the Truth...then surely it is these few that are 'living in Truth' while the rest are enraptured in non-truth and putting all their hopes, desires, actions in the false version of reality their ego has entangled them in...

Such a beautiful and straight to the point Shabad but yet it contains so much to thing about and comprehend...

I pray one day i know and live the full deep meaning of this shabad.

God Bless

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਪਉੜੀ  ॥ 
पउड़ी ॥ 
Pa▫oṛī. 
Pauree: 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜੀਵਦਿਆ  ਮਰੁ  ਮਾਰਿ  ਨ  ਪਛੋਤਾਈਐ  ॥ 
जीवदिआ मरु मारि न पछोताईऐ ॥ 
Jīvḏi▫ā mar mār na pacẖẖoṯā▫ī▫ai. 
While you are alive, conquer death, and you shall have no regrets in the end. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਝੂਠਾ  ਇਹੁ  ਸੰਸਾਰੁ  ਕਿਨਿ  ਸਮਝਾਈਐ  ॥ 
झूठा इहु संसारु किनि समझाईऐ ॥ 
Jẖūṯẖā ih sansār kin samjā▫ī▫ai. 
This world is false, but only a few understand this. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਸਚਿ  ਨ  ਧਰੇ  ਪਿਆਰੁ  ਧੰਧੈ  ਧਾਈਐ  ॥ 
सचि न धरे पिआरु धंधै धाईऐ ॥ 
Sacẖ na ḏẖare pi▫ār ḏẖanḏẖai ḏẖā▫ī▫ai. 
People do not enshrine love for the Truth; they chase after worldly affairs instead. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਾਲੁ  ਬੁਰਾ  ਖੈ  ਕਾਲੁ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਦੁਨੀਆਈਐ  ॥ 
कालु बुरा खै कालु सिरि दुनीआईऐ ॥ 
Kāl burā kẖai kāl sir ḏunī▫ā▫ī▫ai. 
The terrible time of death and annihilation hovers over the heads of the world. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਹੁਕਮੀ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਜੰਦਾਰੁ  ਮਾਰੇ  ਦਾਈਐ  ॥ 
हुकमी सिरि जंदारु मारे दाईऐ ॥ 
Hukmī sir janḏār māre ḏā▫ī▫ai. 
By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, the Messenger of Death smashes his club over their heads. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਆਪੇ  ਦੇਇ  ਪਿਆਰੁ  ਮੰਨਿ  ਵਸਾਈਐ  ॥ 
आपे देइ पिआरु मंनि वसाईऐ ॥ 
Āpe ḏe▫e pi▫ār man vasā▫ī▫ai. 
The Lord Himself gives His Love, and enshrines it within their minds. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਮੁਹਤੁ  ਨ  ਚਸਾ  ਵਿਲੰਮੁ  ਭਰੀਐ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥ 
मुहतु न चसा विलमु भरीऐ पाईऐ ॥ 
Muhaṯ na cẖasā vilamm bẖarī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai. 
Not a moment or an instant's delay is permitted, when one's measure of life is full. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਬੁਝਿ  ਸਚਿ  ਸਮਾਈਐ  ॥੨੦॥ 
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥ 
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20|| 
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20|| 
   </td></tr> <tr></tr></tbody></table>


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

S





> uch an amazing Shabad which describes creation (as the majority see it) as False...



Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear. 

The last line of the shabad is particularly important to me, 


> Such a beautiful and straight to the point Shabad but yet it contains so much to thing about and comprehend...



Does it? It seems quite straightforward to me, if you view the world through desire and the need for the self, you will always be let down, seems the main essence.



> I pray one day i know and live the full deep meaning of this shabad.



I don't pray myself, I see no point, but whilst you are praying for more than what the shabad very simply states, there are those out there who are living it, right now. 

This thread is titled living in the truth, I cannot see what is so hard about living in the truth, the shabad you have quoted does not seem particularly hard to understand, it is reasonably simple, is the need to pray to one day understand it a sign of reverse ego? Is it false humility? 

You guys talk of the thieves a lot, I get the impression that you do not feel you will start living until you have vanquished every one of the thieves and killed them dead, and then finally, life can begin as a Sikh. My understanding is quite different, to me the thieves are like those fairground games where you have to hit these big plastic furry animals with a mallet, they start off slow and the more you hit them, the more they come out, until they come in ones, twos, threes, and you have no chance of hitting them all at the same time, to me, the thieves need to be understood, to be talked to, to be listened to, to be integrated into life, to be given a useful job, to be used in logistics, but no, you guys want to hit them and hit them hard, but you will never win, and you will spend your lives with that mallet bashing away.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥ 
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥ 
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20|| 
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20|| 

Now you guys will see this as some supreme connection to god, where god has been absorbed into you and you are full of grace and godness, I see it as taking on the attributes of god as described in mool mantra, and using that as a template for personality, which gradually becomes easier until you are that template.


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## kggr001 (Jun 7, 2014)

harry haller said:


> S
> 
> Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear.
> 
> ...




I believe in all the points you posted, maybe I was unclear in the other posts , I do believe that this planet(his creation) is real, however its those thieves inside us creating the illusion.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I believe in all the points you posted, maybe I was unclear in the other posts , I do believe that this planet(his creation) is real, however its those thieves inside us creating the illusion.



I agree wholeheartedly, all Creation is true, from the sweet smelling rose to the rancid dog turd, all is Creation, all has Creator present, it is only our own interpretation which is skewed by the thieves which sees things as beauty or as rancid, to see all Creation as true, to see the beauty in a dog turd, is what dropping the lenses, to me, is all about.


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## chazSingh (Jun 7, 2014)

harry haller said:


> S
> 
> Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear.
> 
> ...



nice post ji...

those 5 thieves....grrr
to be honest I didnt think of them that much until I opened gurbani and realised how much they were mentioned. And for the first time started to analyse my own behaviour and thought and realised just how much I was influenced by them and still am...

its crazy because the moment they strike I forget that the poeople I interract with have god in them also..I see just them and me...and I am a different person

thank god were able to see this and evaluate it.

as for living only when they have gone...I think I am living and learning with them a part of me...as I said they show me just exactly when I no longer see god in all and behave like an animal...and through them I have seen the better loving side of me that sees god in the other....I want to know that part of me.

Also want to know the part of me that will not vanquish when this body gives up...the true me...maybe you dont believe we can know that...but I truely believe we can whilst alive

merging in god...know idea what that may be like or what it is...but judging how other parts of gurbani are becoming true..I think it wi be pretty wondrous and amazing...

Thanks for posting harry....appologies if my writing has been bad...typing on my phone


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## chazSingh (Jun 7, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I agree wholeheartedly, all Creation is true, from the sweet smelling rose to the rancid dog turd, all is Creation, all has Creator present, it is only our own interpretation which is skewed by the thieves which sees things as beauty or as rancid, to see all Creation as true, to see the beauty in a dog turd, is what dropping the lenses, to me, is all about.



Of course my friend that's why I said how our ego has us perceiving creation and reality.


but one thing we cannot get away from is...one day it will all be gone...and what remains is just the formless waheguru...and gurbani says know thyself and you will know Him...

how one goes about trying to know this is obviously open to opinion as we already know 

God bless


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

Chazji you were never unmerged with God, none of us were, not even the most base and disgusting individual, I feel it is all down to levels of connection with the truth. If one rapes and pillages, then one has adopted the self as the truth, and justifies everything to the self, if one adopts the truth as the truth, it can be easily seen that rape and pillage are false, in my humble view


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## kggr001 (Jun 7, 2014)

I believe that he is in everyone, but becoming one like merging, I believe can only be done if one becomes the very image of the lord himself, where one can tell no difference between the lord and his servant. Kinda like a droplet merging in the water. One can't distinguish the droplet from the water.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

> know thyself and you will know Him...



I think this is one of the most important facets of Bani, and as we seem to have come from similar backgrounds, maybe you will understand my feelings, you and I come from a background of drugs, sex, self self, I feel that in you, I sense it strongly, that is not who we are, we are bigger than that, but it is easy to fool yourself into fighting it, trying to destroy it, doing anything possible so that the thoughts do not enter your head, so you are free from the howling, the screaming, a bit like the baba who refuses to be left alone with women, do not put temptation into your head, do not start the ball rolling, everything will be ok, pray, meditate, focus on god, and yes, the thoughts go away, but they do not vanish do they, no, they do not, they just hide until the effects wear off, or maybe it is a constant vigilance to keep them at bay, frankly I would rather be dead than live like this, life becomes a constant struggle, a battle between thieves and the truth. 

So, again in my opinion, the way to the truth is not by closing your mind, it is by opening your mind, let the thieves out, embrace them, understand them, I am not suggesting you run riot snorting coke and fornicating, however, if you want a mercedes, then driving a ford just to spite thieves does not make anyone happy, what are the reasons for having the merc? to make others envious? because it makes you look important? pretty much the same thing, because you enjoy the way it drives, ok thats not too bad a reason, the point is, you can negotiate with the thieves, you can drive a mercedes, you can have a good sex life, you can be happy fulfilled but without entering into the trap of lust, ego et al, moderation is the key, and also common sense, its what marks out the balanced happy Sikh to the one that has renounced everything, or to the anarchist. We have to live, we have to work, we have lives, very real lives, all we have to do is see the world through true lenses, to not justify what we do for the self, and to see the truth as the highest platform to live by, although not always the easiest, in my opinion.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I believe that he is in everyone, but becoming one like merging, I believe can only be done if one becomes the very image of the lord himself, where one can tell no difference between the lord and his servant.



but we are already merged, maybe that is why some of us struggle so,


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## kggr001 (Jun 7, 2014)

I agree Harry Haller ji, we should first try to understand the thieves, in order the conquer them, I do believe if one conquered them, that he won't care if he rides in a Mercedes, Ford or a Camel/Horse.

I also do believe that lord is already in everyone(merged), what I meant was becoming the very picture of lord himself. And breaking the circle of life and death, thats what our Individual goal is. to get there it takes alot of effort, the first thing is realisation that we are being controlled by the thieves, second thing is fighting them and everyone has his own ways of doing that, I prefer sewa, sharing and meditation. And all this must be done without having in our mind that we want to free our self from the circle, cause thats attachment/greed, Like you've posted, I do believe that only with his grace you come to know him.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥ 
गुर परसादी बुझि सचि समाईऐ ॥२०॥ 
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20|| 
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

> I agree Harry Haller ji, we should first try to understand the thieves, in order the conquer them, I do believe if one conquered them, that he won't care if he rides in a Mercedes, Ford or a Camel/Horse.



Guru Nanakji would not have cared, nor would Guru Gobind Singhji, Banda Bahadurji possibly would have and Maharaja Ranjitji is a definite!

We are not Gurus, we are people, we try our best, there is a fine line between being an ascetic and being a sensible Sikh. Maybe as we are not Gurus we cannot conquer them, maybe we are fools for putting off till the thieves are conquered what we could do as Sikhs today, maybe the thieves are something we have to keep in line with a view to conquering, but accepting the fact that we may die with them still intact, because if we do not, we may die unfulfilled and without the chance of giving this our best shot. 

If the extent of your thievery is a new mercedes, if thats all it is, then I would say go out and but it and live your life in peace. 

If however your thieves are the more destructive type, I dunno, something like drawing a sword on a fellow Sikh at a place of worship, and you can kid yourself that you are still true and good, because you don't drive a mercedes, well thats something else.



> I also do believe that lord is already in everyone(merged), what I meant was becoming the very picture of lord himself. And breaking the circle of life and death, thats what our Individual goal is



I have already broken the cycle of life and death, I am not scared of death, and when I am dead, I will be dead, my own individual goal is get to the point where giving without thought of reward becomes second nature, and I can worship Creator through assisting Creation as much as possible. That state, to me , is living truthfully, living for Creation, sure, I can listen to the self now and then, I can go out for a meal, I can go away for a dirty weekend with the wife, I can own a second hand Range Rover, but my priority, my reason for living, is to give.


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## kggr001 (Jun 7, 2014)

I once again agree with your points Harry Haller ji, I know we are no Guru's, but Guru ji wanted us to experience what they felt, purpose of master is to get his students at his level or even beter if thats possible.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I once again agree with your points Harry Haller ji, I know we are no Guru's, but Guru ji wanted us to experience what they felt, purpose of master is to get his students at his level and even beter if thats possible.



We cannot equal the Gurus, anyone who feels they can is deluded.


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## kggr001 (Jun 7, 2014)

harry haller said:


> We cannot equal the Gurus, anyone who feels they can is deluded.



I think the bhagats in GGS ji, felt the same the Guru's felt. Atleast after reading stories, and gurbani in GGS ji, Also having read about Buddha, I think he felt the same. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

I know that we shouldn't try to aim to get beter then guru's or at there level, all we should aim for is following there teachings.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I think the bhagats in GGS ji, felt the same the Guru's felt. Atleast after reading stories, and gurbani in GGS ji, Also having read about Buddha, I think he felt the same. Apologies if I'm mistaken.
> 
> I know that we shouldn't try to aim to get beter then guru's or at there level, all we should aim for is following there teachings.



Uhm well Buddha did not believe in God, and Sikhs believe in God, the name of which is the 'truth', 

me? I would be content with being a student till I die, the desire to be better or equal to those whom I consider great is just not there, nor should anyone just blindly follow without understanding, its what, in my opinion, makes Sikhism different to the other religions, do this, do that, do not try and understand just have faith etc,


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## gur_meet (Jun 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> S
> 
> Creation is that which Creator created, if this shabad is telling you that Creation is false, then it follows that Creator is also false, nowhere in this shabad do I see Creation described as false, it is the world that is false, to wit, the sights, sounds, smells and feelings that are corrupted by the thieves that is false. Creation itself is perfect, it is our own interpretation of this that results in the world that we live in today, it is why when we see a woman in a short skirt and high heels, we think of sex, of lust, not of the woman as a person (from a mans perspective), it is why when we see a flash car, we want to own the car, we feel envy, anger, this has nothing at all to do with Creation, I am surprised you have made such a statement. In fact your statement makes no sense in any fashion as the majority see this type of Creation, this type of world as true through the thief inspired lenses they wear.
> 
> ...



This post which is critical of the previous post where a Shabad has been given gives a limited picture of what is and a different direction further on.

Let this Shabad be understood first in FULL. First the last line once again
which is 
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ *ਬੁਝਿ* ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥ 
Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20|| 
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20|| 

The last line of this pauri is the key to the direction and depth of the Shabad . This is because of the use of *the word  " ਬੁਝਿ " which means  to look for and understand the true meaning *. 

Let us look at the meaning of the Shabad line by line.

*Line 1 of Pauri.*

*ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਨ ਪਛੋਤਾਈਐ ॥  
While you are alive, conquer death, and you shall have no regrets in the end.*


The translation of this line tells us to conquer death while alive. What do we die to while living? 
You die while living when the self-identity set aside.It is also interpreted to mean you die towards maya (illusion). The spiritual  state of being ' dead while living" is also the stage where Anhad Shabad is heard . Here are other pungtees where this is mentioned.
ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੰਕ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥ Anthar Kee Gath Jaaneeai Gur Mileeai Sank Outhaar ||
 Know the state of your inner being; meet with the Guru and get rid of your skepticism.
ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥ Mueiaa Jith Ghar Jaaeeai Thith Jeevadhiaa Mar Maar ||
 To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.
ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥ Anehadh Sabadh Suhaavanae Paaeeai Gur Veechaar ||2||
The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the Shabad is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2|| 
ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥ Anehadh Baanee Paaeeai Theh Houmai Hoe Binaas || 
The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated. 
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੧  page 21​ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਵਤਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥ Naanak Jeevathiaa Mar Reheeai Aisaa Jog Kamaaeeai || 
O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive - practice such a Yoga. 
ਵਾਜੇ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਜੈ ਤਉ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ Vaajae Baajhahu Sinn(g)ee Vaajai Tho Nirabho Padh Paaeeai || When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity. 
ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥ Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Tho Paaeeai ||4||1||8|| 
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||4||1||8|| 

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੩੦   page 730​*Line 2 : 
ਝੂਠਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਕਿਨਿ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ॥ 
This world is false, but only a few understand this.
*
The  Sansar (world)  is false. The few who understand this also understand that the visible creation  is also false.    Here Guruji is talking about the sansar as in the next line Guru ji explains that :

*Line 3 :*
*ਸਚਿ ਨ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਧਾਈਐ ॥ 
People do not enshrine love for the Truth; they chase after worldly affairs instead.*


Here the explianation is that worldly affairs prevent the person from enshrining Love for Sach ( truth) meaning the creator by knowing that behing the false front of the creation is the creator.

*Line 4 and 5:*

*ਕਾਲੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਖੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆਈਐ ॥  
The terrible time of death and annihilation hovers over the heads of the world.
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੰਦਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਦਾਈਐ ॥  
By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, the Messenger of Death smashes his club over their heads.*

Here the word used is  " ਦੁਨੀਆਈਐ  " but the translator has translated this as world .  In the Dunia (world) the death hovers. It is a cycle of birth-life-death in the world. That is the Hukam. Only the person who knows Sach (truth) also knows that the body is subject to death . This body is biological - matter . ( Does the nonliving matter has an end. The science too has an explaination about creation - destruction.)

*Line 6 , 7 & 8 :

ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈਐ ॥
The Lord Himself gives His Love, and enshrines it within their minds.
ਮੁਹਤੁ ਨ ਚਸਾ ਵਿਲੰਮੁ ਭਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Not a moment or an instant's delay is permitted, when one's measure of life is full.
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥
By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||*

These lines are together because of sequence. When the Karta ( creator) is enshrined in the mind the love is also there . This is gur parsad when turning away from the worldy affairs the person makes effort towards knowing the Sach(truth) through Guru. The change happens in an instant. The line 6 translation is weak hence being together.



This pauri has depth in meaning going beyond .The translation cannot capture this depth. The last line itself gives this hint .The simple translation is limiting. 

*Now let us look at Shabads that speak of created world:*

ਏ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਹੁ ਮੇਰਿਹੋ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਮ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
Eae Naethrahu Maeriho Har Thum Mehi Joth Dhharee Har Bin Avar N Dhaekhahu Koee || 
O my eyes, the Lord has infused His Light into you; do not look upon any other than the Lord. 
ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਦਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ॥ Har Bin Avar N Dhaekhahu Koee Nadharee Har Nihaaliaa ||
 Do not look upon any other than the Lord; the Lord alone is worthy of beholding.
ਏਹੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਦੇਖਦੇ ਏਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ॥ Eaehu Vis Sansaar Thum Dhaekhadhae Eaehu Har Kaa Roop Hai Har Roop Nadharee Aaeiaa || 
This whole world which you see is the image of the Lord; only the image of the Lord is seen. 
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿਆ ਜਾ ਵੇਖਾ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ Gur Parasaadhee Bujhiaa Jaa Vaekhaa Har Eik Hai Har Bin Avar N Koee || 
By Guru's Grace, I understand, and I see only the One Lord; there is no one except the Lord. 
ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਹਿ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਅੰਧ ਸੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਦਿਬ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੩੬॥ Kehai Naanak Eaehi Naethr Andhh Sae Sathigur Miliai Dhib Dhrisatt Hoee ||36|| 
Says Nanak, these eyes were blind; but meeting the True Guru, they became all-seeing. ||36|| 

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੨੨ ਪੰ. ੭


Here the word used is '' ਸੰਸਾਰੁ " translated as world. It is clear from the Shabad that the sansar ( world) here means the visible world. The advice of gurbani is to look as " Har Ka Roop " . To see creator in the creation and the oneness.

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਗਹੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥ Man Rae Saachaa Geho Bichaaraa || 
O mind, embrace true contemplation. 
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਮਾਨੋ ਸਗਰੋ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Raam Naam Bin Mithhiaa Maano Sagaro Eihu Sansaaraa ||1|| Rehaao ||
Without the Lord's Name, know that this whole world is false. ||1||Pause|| 
ਜੈਤਸਰੀ (ਮ: ੯) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੦੩ ਪੰ. ੭ 


ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਰਚਨਾ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
Baran Chihan Naahee Kishh Rachanaa Mithhiaa Sagal Pasaaraa ||
Nothing of the color and the form of the creation shall remain; the entire expanse is transitory.
ਭਣਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਬ ਖੇਲੁ ਉਝਾਰੈ ਤਬ ਏਕੈ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੪॥
Bhanath Naanak Jab Khael Oujhaarai Thab Eaekai Eaekankaaraa ||4||4||
Prays Nanak, when He brings His play to its close, then only the One, the One Lord remains. ||4||4||
ਮਾਰੂ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੯੯  Page 999​ਭਭਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਟਾਵਹੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥ Bhabhaa Bharam Mittaavahu Apanaa ||
BHABHA: Cast out your doubt and delusion
ਇਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸੁਪਨਾ ॥ Eiaa Sansaar Sagal Hai Supanaa || 
This world is just a dream. 
ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੮  Page 258​ਕਾਂ ਕੋ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸੰਪਤਿ ਕਾਂ ਕੀ ਕਾ ਸਿਉ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾਹੀ ॥ Kaan Ko Than Dhhan Sanpath Kaan Kee Kaa Sio Naehu Lagaahee || Who has a body? Who has wealth and property? With whom should we fall in love? 
ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਦਰ ਕੀ ਛਾਹੀ ॥੧॥ Jo Dheesai So Sagal Binaasai Jio Baadhar Kee Shhaahee ||1|| Whatever is seen, shall all disappear, like the shade of a passing cloud. ||1||
 ਸਾਰੰਗ (ਮ: ੯) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੩੧ page 1231​ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਅਰੁ ਪੇਖਨਾ ਐਸੇ ਜਗ ਕਉ ਜਾਨਿ ॥ Jio Supanaa Ar Paekhanaa Aisae Jag Ko Jaan || 
Like a dream and a show, so is this world, you must know.
ਇਨ ਮੈ ਕਛੁ ਸਾਚੋ ਨਹੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੨੩॥ Ein Mai Kashh Saacho Nehee Naanak Bin Bhagavaan ||23|| 
None of this is true, O Nanak, without God. ||23|| 
ਸਲੋਕ ਵਾਰਾਂ ਤੇ ਵਧੀਕ (ਮ: ੯) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੪੨੭ page 1421​The shabads quoted above  although in short  explain that :*

The created world is false except for the creater . The creator is within the creation. Nothing is permanent . Whatever is seen ends . Only permanence is the creator the Sach (true) part of creation. The support of creation.

*
Further  in thi post it is stated that :

Quote
...the thieves need to be understood, to be talked to, to be listened to, to be integrated into life, to be given a useful job, to be used in logistics, but no, you guys want to hit them and hit them hard, but you will never win, and you will spend your lives with that mallet bashing away ...
Unquote

*This is not what gurbani advises. Always gurbani explains that only through love of the ONE that these five thieves can go away or are under control.*


ਗੂਜਰੀ ਅਸਟਪਦੀਆ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧ 
Goojaree Asattapadheeaa Mehalaa 1 Ghar 1 Goojaree, Ashtapadees, First Mehl, First House: 
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ Ik Oankaar Sathigur Prasaadh || One Universal Creator God. 
By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

ਏਕ ਨਗਰੀ ਪੰਚ ਚੋਰ ਬਸੀਅਲੇ ਬਰਜਤ ਚੋਰੀ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ Eaek Nagaree Panch Chor Baseealae Barajath Choree Dhhaavai || In the one village of the body, live the five thieves; they have been warned, but they still go out stealing. 

ਤ੍ਰਿਹਦਸ ਮਾਲ ਰਖੈ ਜੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ Thrihadhas Maal Rakhai Jo Naanak Mokh Mukath So Paavai ||1|| 
One who keeps his assets safe from the three modes and the ten passions, O Nanak, attains liberation and emancipation. ||1|| 

 ਚੇਤਹੁ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਉ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ॥ Chaethahu Baasudhaeo Banavaalee ||
 Center your mind on the all-pervading Lord, the Wearer of garlands of the jungles.
 ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Raam Ridhai Japamaalee ||1|| Rehaao |
| Let your rosary be the chanting of the Lord's Name in your heart. ||1||Pause|| 

ਉਰਧ ਮੂਲ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਾਖ ਤਲਾਹਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Ouradhh Mool Jis Saakh Thalaahaa Chaar Baedh Jith Laagae || Its roots extend upwards, and its branches reach down; the four Vedas are attached to it. 

 ਸਹਜ ਭਾਇ ਜਾਇ ਤੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਿਵ ਜਾਗੇ ॥੨॥ Sehaj Bhaae Jaae Thae Naanak Paarabreham Liv Jaagae ||2||
 He alone reaches this tree with ease, O Nanak, who remains wakeful in the Love of the Supreme Lord God. ||2|| 

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਗਨਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਪੁਹਪ ਪਤ੍ਰ ਤਤੁ ਡਾਲਾ ॥ Paarajaath Ghar Aagan Maerai Puhap Pathr Thath Ddaalaa || 
The Elysian Tree is the courtyard of my house; in it are the flowers, leaves and stems of reality.

ਸਰਬ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸੰਭੂ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੩॥ Sarab Joth Niranjan Sanbhoo Shhoddahu Bahuth Janjaalaa ||3||
 Meditate on the self-existent, immaculate Lord, whose Light is pervading everywhere; renounce all your worldly entanglements. ||3||
ਸੁਣਿ ਸਿਖਵੰਤੇ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬਿਨਵੈ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾਲਾ ॥ Sun Sikhavanthae Naanak Binavai Shhoddahu Maaeiaa Jaalaa ||
 Listen, O seekers of Truth - Nanak begs you to renounce the traps of Maya. 

ਮਨਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਕਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ Man Beechaar Eaek Liv Laagee Punarap Janam N Kaalaa ||4||
 Reflect within your mind, that by enshrining love for the One Lord, you shall not be subject to birth and death again. ||4||  

ਸੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਕਥੀਅਲੇ ਸੋ ਵੈਦੁ ਜਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੋਗੀ ॥ So Guroo So Sikh Kathheealae So Vaidh J Jaanai Rogee || He alone is said to be a Guru, he alone is said to be a Sikh, and he alone is said to be a physician, who knows the patient's illness. 
 ਤਿਸੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕੰਮੁ ਨ ਧੰਧਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਧੰਧੈ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਜੋਗੀ ॥੫॥ This Kaaran Kanm N Dhhandhhaa Naahee Dhhandhhai Girehee Jogee ||5|
 He is not affected by actions, responsibilities and entanglements; in the entanglements of his household, he maintains the detachment of Yoga. ||5|| 
 ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਤਜੀਅਲੇ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਿਸ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ Kaam Krodhh Ahankaar Thajeealae Lobh Mohu This Maaeiaa || He renounces sexual desire, anger, egotism, greed, attachment and Maya. 

 ਮਨਿ ਤਤੁ ਅਵਿਗਤੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੬॥ Man Thath Avigath Dhhiaaeiaa Gur Parasaadhee Paaeiaa ||6|| Within his mind, he meditates on the reality of the Imperishable Lord; by Guru's Grace he finds Him. ||6|| 

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਸਭ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਥੀਅਲੇ ਸੇਤ ਬਰਨ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਤਾ ॥ Giaan Dhhiaan Sabh Dhaath Kathheealae Saeth Baran Sabh Dhoothaa || 
Spiritual wisdom and meditation are all said to be God's gifts; all of the demons are turned white before him.
 ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲ ਮਧੁ ਤਾਸੁ ਰਸਾਦੰ ਜਾਗਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੂਤਾ ॥੭॥ Breham Kamal Madhh Thaas Rasaadhan Jaagath Naahee Soothaa ||7|| 
He enjoys the taste of the honey of God's lotus; he remains awake, and does not fall asleep. ||7|| 

ਮਹਾ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਪਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੁਆਇਆ ॥ Mehaa Ganbheer Pathr Paathaalaa Naanak Sarab Juaaeiaa ||
This lotus is very deep; its leaves are the nether regions, and it is connected to the whole universe.

ਉਪਦੇਸ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਮ ਪੁਨਹਿ ਨ ਗਰਭੰ ਬਿਖੁ ਤਜਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆਇਆ ॥੮॥੧॥ Oupadhaes Guroo Mam Punehi N Garabhan Bikh Thaj Anmrith Peeaaeiaa ||8||1||
 Under Guru's Instruction, I shall not have to enter the womb again; I have renounced the poison of corruption, and I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||8||1||

 ਗੂਜਰੀ ਅਸਟ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੫੦੩  page 503




Those who have been grouped as meditators have been on the right track. They have faced strong words.
The discussion should be based on gurbani and not be a play of words.


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## gur_meet (Jun 8, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Uhm well Buddha did not believe in God, and *Sikhs believe in God, the name of which is the 'truth',
> *
> me? I would be content with being a student till I die, the desire to be better or equal to those whom I consider great is just not there, nor should anyone just blindly follow without understanding, its what, in my opinion, makes Sikhism different to the other religions, do this, do that, do not try and understand just have faith etc,



To clarify -
Sach (truth) is not given as the name of GOD in Gurbani. Sach( truth) as explained by gurbani is that Creator is in the creation. Everything and everywhere is creator. This Sach (truth) we have to know , understand and enshrine in our heart. Simran is towards this purpose. That which is not permanent - a mithia and Kurh

There is no one name given in gurbani for the creator. 

Here are gurbani quotes :

*ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਗੁਣ ਕੇਤੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ *
Thaerae Naam Anaekaa Roop Ananthaa Kehan N Jaahee Thaerae Gun Kaethae ||1|| Rehaao ||
 Your Names are so many, and Your Forms are endless. No one can tell how may Glorious Virtues You have. ||1||Pause|| 

ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੫੮ page 358


*ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥*
Thaerae Naam Anaek Keemath Nehee Paaee || 
Your Names are countless; Your value cannot be estimated. 
* ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਾਈ ॥*
 Sach Naam Har Hiradhai Vasaaee ||
 I enshrine the Lord's True Name within my heart. 
* ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਉਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੮॥*
 Keemath Koun Karae Prabh Thaeree Thoo Aapae Sehaj Samaaeiaa ||8|| 
Who can estimate Your value, God? You are immersed and absorbed in Yourself. ||8|| 

ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੦੬੭ page 1067 
​ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥ 
Gourree Mehalaa 9 || Gauree, Ninth Mehl:
ਸਾਧੋ ਰਚਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ 
Saadhho Rachanaa Raam Banaaee || 
Holy Saadhus: the Lord fashioned the creation. 
ਇਕਿ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਇਕ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਅਚਰਜੁ ਲਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Eik Binasai Eik Asathhir Maanai Acharaj Lakhiou N Jaaee ||1|| Rehaao || 
One person passes away, and another thinks that he will live forever - this is a wonder beyond understanding! ||1||Pause|| 
 ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮੋਹ ਬਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਈ ॥
 Kaam Krodhh Moh Bas Praanee Har Moorath Bisaraaee || 
The mortal beings are held in the power of sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment; they have forgotten the Lord, the Immortal Form. 
ਝੂਠਾ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਰੈਨਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
Jhoothaa Than Saachaa Kar Maaniou Jio Supanaa Rainaaee ||1||
 The body is false, but they believe it to be true; it is like a dream in the night. ||1||
 ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਦਰ ਕੀ ਛਾਈ ॥
 Jo Dheesai So Sagal Binaasai Jio Baadhar Kee Shhaaee || 
Whatever is seen, shall all pass away, like the shadow of a cloud. 
 ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗੁ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਸਰਨਾਈ ॥੨॥੨॥
 Jan Naanak Jag Jaaniou Mithhiaa Rehiou Raam Saranaaee ||2||2|| 
O servant Nanak, one who knows the world to be unreal, dwells in the Sanctuary of the Lord. ||2||2|| 
ਗਉੜੀ (ਮ: ੯) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੧੯  page 219​


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> This post which is critical of the previous post where a Shabad has been given gives a limited picture of what is and a different direction further on.



I have posted my opinion, since when did your opinion become fact?



> Let this Shabad be understood first in FULL. First the last line once again



I can see a pattern here, meditation clearly makes you believe you know all the answers, I am going to run out of red lights to give people!



> which is
> ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ॥੨੦॥
> Gur parsādī bujẖ sacẖ samā▫ī▫ai. ||20||
> By Guru's Grace, one comes to know the True One, and is absorbed into Him. ||20||
> ...



May I point out the ambiguity of your statement? to look and understand the true meaning swings both ways, it could be used to support either of our arguments....

Line 1 of Pauri.

ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਨ ਪਛੋਤਾਈਐ ॥ 
While you are alive, conquer death, and you shall have no regrets in the end.




> The translation of this line tells us to conquer death while alive. What do we die to while living?
> You die while living when the self-identity set aside.It is also interpreted to mean you die towards maya (illusion). The spiritual state of being ' dead while living" is also the stage where Anhad Shabad is heard



I am well aware of the concept of being dead whilst alive, it is an experience I am familiar with, however Anhad Shabad seems to be a largely AKJ concept, if you are a Sikh that follows this type of Sikhism, good luck to you, but please do not try and pass it off as the definitive.



> Here are other pungtees where this is mentioned.
> ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੰਕ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥ Anthar Kee Gath Jaaneeai Gur Mileeai Sank Outhaar ||
> Know the state of your inner being; meet with the Guru and get rid of your skepticism.
> ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥ Mueiaa Jith Ghar Jaaeeai Thith Jeevadhiaa Mar Maar ||
> ...



this sort of quoting is pointless, anyone who knows the way the SGGS reads, as I am sure you do, must also be aware that entire shabads cannot be whittled down to one line to prove a point, I am not prepared to mod on this thread, so someone else will have to take that up with you, however, one liners just do not work. 



> Line 2 :
> ਝੂਠਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਕਿਨਿ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ॥
> This world is false, but only a few understand this.
> 
> The Sansar (world) is false. The few who understand this also understand that the visible creation is also false.



Your saying all visible Creation is false, and that the only true Creation is invisible Creation, hey I like this concept, in fact, its a great concept and I want to be part of it! It gives free licence for baba types, its a bit like the Emperors new clothes, you will pardon me if I take the role of young boy in this, you can play the Emperor if you wish, it kinda suits you!



> Line 3 :
> ਸਚਿ ਨ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਧਾਈਐ ॥
> People do not enshrine love for the Truth; they chase after worldly affairs instead.
> 
> ...



Does that mean there is also a true front of the Creation, that, wait let me guess, is only visible to those who can see through the tenth eye? no, you guys are not elitist at all! this is aimed at the common man in the street for sure! 



> ine 4 and 5:
> 
> ਕਾਲੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਖੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆਈਐ ॥
> The terrible time of death and annihilation hovers over the heads of the world.
> ...



If the translator has translated this wrongly as world, would it not have been a good idea to give your translation rather than leaving us all hanging? you say that only the person who knows the truth also knows that the body is subject to death, uhmm I would say most people know this, so I am not quite sure what your point is, unless your saying most people know the truth, also, not all of us believe in reincarnation, certainly not me anyway. 



> Line 6 , 7 & 8 :
> 
> ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈਐ ॥
> The Lord Himself gives His Love, and enshrines it within their minds.
> ...



I do not agree with your translation, since when were Sikhs supposed to turn away from worldy affairs? It is a pity the tenth master did not have your expertise in these matters, you could have saved him from all those battles and interventions in worldly affairs, you could have saved the ninth master too, clearly it would have been better for all if they had just meditated and found the tenth eye, that would have saved us!



> This pauri has depth in meaning going beyond .The translation cannot capture this depth. The last line itself gives this hint .The simple translation is limiting.



whereas clearly yours is simply illuminating!



> Now let us look at Shabads that speak of created world:
> ਏ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਹੁ ਮੇਰਿਹੋ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਮ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥
> Eae Naethrahu Maeriho Har Thum Mehi Joth Dhharee Har Bin Avar N Dhaekhahu Koee ||
> O my eyes, the Lord has infused His Light into you; do not look upon any other than the Lord.
> ...



I am confused now, to see Creator in which Creation? according to you, all visible Creation is false, so do you mean all invisible Creation? are you contradicting yourself? if you want that red light you are going to have to try harder.



> ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਗਹੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥ Man Rae Saachaa Geho Bichaaraa ||
> O mind, embrace true contemplation.
> ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਮਾਨੋ ਸਗਰੋ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Raam Naam Bin Mithhiaa Maano Sagaro Eihu Sansaaraa ||1|| Rehaao ||
> Without the Lord's Name, know that this whole world is false. ||1||Pause||
> ...



so your saying in effect that the Created world is again false, but Creator is within this, surely that follows then that Creator is also false, the rest I cannot make head or tail on, I am cancelling your red light, frankly I think those flashing yellow/orange ones would be more apt, this is more of a traffic accident.



> urther in thi post it is stated that :
> 
> Quote
> ...the thieves need to be understood, to be talked to, to be listened to, to be integrated into life, to be given a useful job, to be used in logistics, but no, you guys want to hit them and hit them hard, but you will never win, and you will spend your lives with that mallet bashing away ...
> ...



I have given my view, which is only view, nothing else, it is a pragmatic view, kindly explain what love of the one entails and what I need to do in real terms to get these thieves under control, does it involve, gulp. meditation by any chance?



> Those who have been grouped as meditators have been on the right track. They have faced strong words.
> The discussion should be based on gurbani and not be a play of words.



I have said it before and I will say it again, if you guys wish to find the fourth nose or whatever it is you are looking for, brilliant, its a free world, do as you wish, just do not pass it off as the definitive, I do not pass my thoughts off as the definitive, they are just my musings that hopefully contribute to discussion, the moment we come to a point where someone says, 'hey I have the answers, listen up, your doing this all wrong' we reach the end, because discussion becomes an argument. SPNAdminji knew this, and would nip such posts in the bud, I am not as wise or as strong as her, I prefer wit and sarcasm, and that will eventually be my downfall.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> To clarify -
> Sach (truth) is not given as the name of GOD in Gurbani. Sach( truth) as explained by gurbani is that Creator is in the creation. Everything and everywhere is creator. This Sach (truth) we have to know , understand and enshrine in our heart. Simran is towards this purpose. That which is not permanent - a mithia and Kurh
> 
> There is no one name given in gurbani for the creator.
> ...



this nicely brings this thread back to the subject in hand, for me Sikhism is to adapt the facets of the Creator as outlined in Mool Mantra, to have no fear, to have no enemies, and to be true. 

the second line of Mool Mantra is Satnam, my belief is that this means 
EK ONKAR
One true Creator
Sat Nam
whose name is the truth

I am happy to stand corrected, I have never intimated I am a scholar of Sikhism nor a great Sikh, in fact, to state categorically, all I have learnt is from having the **** kicked out of me by life, it just so happens that what I have learned seems to tally with the what I have read in the SGGS. That is my education and training, all I can do is put my opinion forward as opinion only, I expect others to do the same.


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## gur_meet (Jun 9, 2014)

Harry ji Bhul Chuk Maf karni

Through the Guru the Sikh is bonded with the Sikh as Sadh Sangat. The spiritual growth is through Sadh sangat. 

Our Guru is Shabad Guru . Shabad Guru Ever guides. We do not have any mental quality to understand gurbani. The understanding is what comes intuitively . Who else would be guiding other than Guru.
This guidance comes when the Sikh brings in his simran the Hukam :*ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥*
 Sathigur Kee Baanee Sath Sath Kar Jaanahu Gurasikhahu Har Karathaa Aap Muhahu Kadtaaeae || 
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. 
ਗਉੜੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ:੧ (ਮ: ੪) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੦੮ Page 308​The Mool Manter 's understanding only Shabad Guru gives . 
The translations are misleading. These are to be seen and overlooked while understanding.

Ek onkar is how creation IS . There is oneness . There is Hukam of creator that has created Maya (illusion) as well. Maya is such that matter also looks real. 
Guru invariably shows the Sikhs HE is within creation through a feeling or even a pervading light. This comes when Sikh does not accept the illusion but accepts what Guru says. This as simran is  repeated by the Sikh and then the Gurparsad is there.
This again is very limited knowledge. HE is infinite.

In Satnaam the intuitive guidance is that Naam which is the Creator within creation is the only truth about creation. When reading Shabads the linkage is also felt.

There is no logical or as is said scientific proof for this.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> Harry ji Bhul Chuk Maf karni



I would ask the same of you, if you feel I have some sort of vendetta against meditation, I do not, I just do not understand how it can be the core of Sikhism as it is with some. 



> Our Guru is Shabad Guru . Shabad Guru Ever guides. We do not have any mental quality to understand gurbani. The understanding is what comes intuitively . Who else would be guiding other than Guru.



if we do not have any mental quality to understand gurbani, then what is the point of reading it, you say it comes intuitively and from the guidance of the guru, but our guru is the guru shabad, the word of the guru, reading it, understanding it and practising it makes sense, but having some celestial hand hovering over your head imparting this knowledge to you sounds superstitious and magical. 



> Ek onkar is how creation IS . There is oneness . There is Hukam of creator that has created Maya (illusion) as well. Maya is such that matter also looks real.



but matter is real, the theory that the world is an illusion is a Vedic/Buddhist concept, my take is that the world is very real, it is our own senses that turn it into an illusion, we see sex objects where there are women, we see powerful fast cars where there is only metal, we see admiration where there is only envy, that is where I am in my present journey, it is the thieves that cause this veil to fall over the world, but the world itself exists and is very real. 



> Guru invariably shows the Sikhs HE is within creation through a feeling or even a pervading light.



I prefer the feeling that I am living and thinking truthfully, the trouble with feelings and pervading lights is that they are all present anyway, how do you know what is god given and what is self given?

Does living truthfully need simran? does it need connection? does it need anything other than recognising consequences, discipline, a small amount of common sense and the lack of fear?


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> I believe that he is in everyone, but becoming one like merging, I believe can only be done if one becomes the very image of the lord himself, where one can tell no difference between the lord and his servant. Kinda like a droplet merging in the water. One can't distinguish the droplet from the water.



yes ji,

like harry ji says, we are already merged...but this crazy Ego of mine, it's done a good job of making me feel seperate to Him. And by feeling seperate to Him, i have created boundaried amongst all people.

For all the* 'imagining'* that God is in all, for all the *'i see god in all' *... it only takes a iota of being dragged into a situation under the influence of any or all of the 5 thieves and i have lost all recognition of God in all...that's how sharp this path is.

and for all my efforts, i am still being pulled by the hair by the 5 thieves...

And i know Harry Ji and many others do not agree with certain efforts of mine (naam simran, meditation etc)...the one thing this has allowed me to see is:

all the crazy sounding mystical suff in Gurbani is in fact very True ...i don't know what all this is...but if it is True and exists in me (like Gurbani says and is proving to me) then it also exists within everyone else...thus we truely are one and the same...all in one, and one in all.

Therefore no matter how much anyone says Naam Simran is pointless, or sitting and withrawing from the outer world for brief moments to go within is selfish or whatever...i cannot really care for such comments for when you are mesmerized with this inner experience, nothing else compares, nothing can convince you otherwise.
this also truly changes you view of the outer world...creation, and how you see interact with others, in a very unique way and very difficult to describe

onwards and upwards.

sticking with the topic...i have to try to live truthfully every moment otherwise i will fall off this path...and through this path i am realizing i have not been living in truth and slowly Guru Ji is starting to open my eyes...inner eyes to the truth...

this is just my opinion, everyones opinions and feeling about living in truth and truthful living thus far have been spot on.

God Bless


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> I would ask the same of you, if you feel I have some sort of vendetta against meditation, I do not, I just do not understand how it can be the core of Sikhism as it is with some.



meditation, is definitely important part in Sikhism, like I've mentioned in the other posts, what it does is temporaly release you from the illusion, and in the long run as you more realise the illusion reduce the effect of ego, and to bond the soul with the divine world. Meditation is also important for the person to discover his/her true self.

If you ask me if this all can be gained without meditation, yes it can but it likely would be very very very hard.
And yes only medition is not enough, you first have to understand the thieves, in order to conquer them.



harry haller said:


> if we do not have any mental quality to understand gurbani, then what is the point of reading it, you say it comes intuitively and from the guidance of the guru, but our guru is the guru shabad, the word of the guru, reading it, understanding it and practising it makes sense, but having some celestial hand hovering over your head imparting this knowledge to you sounds superstitious and magical.



Harry Haller ji the only point to keep reading the Gurbani is first to understand it. However you ask whats the point of reading Gurbani if someone already understands it, gurbani is there to motivate you on your journey when you feel like your straying from your path. 




> Does living truthfully need simran? does it need connection? does it need anything other than recognising consequences, discipline, a small amount of common sense and the lack of fear?



Yes, one needs simran even if you mentaly are capable to remember and understand everything you read in GGS ji, everyone gets a moments when he is straying from the path thats where reading GGS ji helps. To live in the truth one first has to realize whats creating the Lie and find a way what could counter the evildoer inside ourself.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> And i know Harry Ji and many others do not agree with certain efforts of mine (naam simran, meditation etc)...the one thing this has allowed me to see is:
> 
> all the crazy sounding mystical suff in Gurbani is in fact very True ...i don't know what all this is...but if it is True and exists in me (like Gurbani says) then it also exists within everyone else...thus we truely are one and the same...all in one, and one in all.



Chazji, my dear brother in arms, 

On the big scale of life we all do what gets us through the night, I am not out to convert or change the minds of anyone, I resent the implication that naam simran is a completely meditative domain, meditation is great, many do it, but all I am saying is that naam simran can be expressed in many many different ways, through seva, through connection. 

If meditation works for you, Lucky et al, great, brilliant, I am absolutely pleased for you, it has to be better than sitting in front of a computer screen watching filth with a joint in your mouth, 

My only concern and it is for me I say this, which is why I do not practice it, is that it only blots out the filth for the moment, yes it fills your head, yes it drives all other thoughts out, but back in the real world, back when you have that feeling in your stomach, when the need for gratification through any way is the only thing on your mind, when your buzzing like an alarm bell, and you feel weak, helpless, like a zombie doing its masters bidding, when the thieves are fully in control, then all life is false, everything is false, and you end up like a yoyo between serenity and hell. 

that is my understanding of the situation, I am happy to stand corrected.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> but matter is real, the theory that the world is an illusion is a Vedic/Buddhist concept, my take is that the world is very real, it is our own senses that turn it into an illusion, we see sex objects where there are women, we see powerful fast cars where there is only metal, we see admiration where there is only envy, that is where I am in my present journey, it is the thieves that cause this veil to fall over the world, but the world itself exists and is very real.



yes the word is real...but not forever...one day it will gone...just like our bodies...so how real is it? it appears then is gone...
our problem is we forget that it is temporary...so we get into entanglements...attachments, anger, greed, egotistical ventures...

is all our efforts solely on the thing that will be gone...
a child gets excited when given a lolipop...child is in a moment of complete happiness...but then the lollipop dissolves and is gone...all that is left is a memory.

A time comes, for everyone at some stage...where they start to seek to know what never ceases to exists (the actual truth)...gurbani says that part of us can be experienced within us...then the mind wonders how this can be done..

But that doesn't mean anyone should stop interacting in the world...

The computer game is not the truth...the code, the programmer is the truth...


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## gur_meet (Jun 9, 2014)

Harry ji
When I say we do not have mental quality the meaning is contextual. While living we are us only. Our thoughts ,beliefs , habits , feelings  influencing our choices. 
The understanding is also linked. We understand in the light of past experience and learning.

Gurbani words have deeper meanings. The wordings are simple looking , straight forward but have so much depth.Much of the time the words are overlooked and just read.
There is often no past experience as a guide. 

The first thing that jap does is shift our awareness within. It brings us in contact with the wider connection from within. Waheguru Jap brings this change. With the belief being enshrined within that :
ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥Gur      Maerai Sang Sadhaa Hai Naalae ||
My      Guru is always with me, near at hand.
*ਆਸਾ      (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੯੪ ਪੰ. ੩* 
The actual understanding is not that guru is at hand as in translation but within and everywhere. 
The understandings come and grow only when we accept it is not our capacity but HIS capacity. When our awareness is within.

There is nothing magical about it. We have to discard first all worldly theories and just do simran as guruji tells then the actual reality begins to surface.

Sikh meditation is Simran which is quite different from other types of meditation with closed eyes and concentrating on a manter or just trying to stop the flow of thoughts or trying to go towards silence between the thought gaps.

Sikh meditation which is simran is a transforming meditation. It is not exactly transforming rather is that we start becoming what we really are .

The viel or illusion is HIS created. The thieves causing this is part of the illusion.

Yes living truthfully needs simran. The attributes of truth are already there and these come to surface. 
Gurbani  also explains this. I would post the pungtees soon.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> meditation, is definitely important part in Sikhism, like I've mentioned in the other posts, what it does is temporaly release you from the illusion, and in the long run as you more realise the illusion reduce the effect of ego, and to bond the soul with the divine world. Meditation is also important for the person to discover his/her true self.



Sikhs are supposed to live in the real world, supposed to be able to handle the real world, not go running to go bonding with what you call the divine world, this only furthers my feelings that meditation is nothing more than escapism, the parallels to drug induced feelings of serenity and knowledge are clear. The only way to discover the true self is to live and think truly, in all situations, if you can sit on a train full of women in mini skirts, and see them all as your sisters, without effort, without panic, then you are living, in my opinion, truthfully, if you have to start meditating because the bad thoughts are starting, you will probably miss your stop, and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom, 



> If you ask me if this all can be gained without meditation, yes it can but it likely would be very very very hard.
> And yes only medition is not enough, you first have to understand the thieves, in order to conquer them.



Ah well you see, again, in my opinion, meditation just makes things worse, it merely prolongs the day of reckoning when you have to deal with these issues, lust, greed, ego, etc. 



> Harry Haller ji the only point to keep reading the Gurbani is first to understand it. However you ask whats the point of reading Gurbani if someone already understands it, gurbani is there to motivate you on your journey when you feel like your straying from your path.



please do not put words in my mouth, read my quote again, that is not what I am saying, it is being inferred that Bani can be understood by grace, whilst grace undoubtedly has a hand, it is through hard work, and thinking, contemplation, and ultimately practice that enables one to understand Gurbani. Sometimes I sit in the bath for hours, with my three dogs sitting on the floor, and I think, and I keep thinking, batting ideas like tennis ***** in my head, I talk to the dogs, they unfortunately cannot answer, but after a while, I might come up with a theory, a path, an action, that may help me in my quest not to be ruled by the thieves, and I try it out, experiment with it, that to me is naam simran



> Yes, one needs simran even if you mentaly are capable to remember and understand everything you read in GGS ji, everyone gets a moments when he is straying from the path thats where reading GGS ji helps. To live in the truth one first has to realize whats creating the Lie and fight the evildoer inside ourself.



firstly define simran, secondly, fighting solves nothing, I have been fighting all my life, and I am quite fed up with it, it is a fight that cannot be won in my opinion, some facets of the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it, you then need it, and then the blinkers come down and all you can see is that thing, maybe that is when it becomes a thief, when it takes you over, when it ceases to be something 'nice' and becomes something 'essential', to make this call requires discipline and discretion, logic helps too, I've spent too long fighting to see others end their lives in a fight, maybe when bani talks of the thieves they are talking of our lusts being in control, rather than us being in control of them, so control them, control yourself, easier than destroying parts of you, in my opinion


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Chazji, my dear brother in arms,
> 
> On the big scale of life we all do what gets us through the night, I am not out to convert or change the minds of anyone, I resent the implication that naam simran is a completely meditative domain, meditation is great, many do it, but all I am saying is that naam simran can be expressed in many many different ways, through seva, through connection.
> 
> ...



agree completely

but its not a bad thing...all these falling into the 'false' under these 5 thieves is a continuous test of our conscious control of our selves.

The beauty is we're able to recognize them, evaluate their effects on us...and see them as almost a seperate entity to us...this to me is Grace...
most think *'they are their emotions' *and are completely entangled in them...they don't recognize as having a *choice *in the matter...

so keep recognizing them 

Gurbani already describes this...a lifelong battle with the 5 thieves...even when we feel clear of them, they are ready to pounce at any weakness...to always be alert...


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Sikhs are supposed to live in the real world, supposed to be able to handle the real world, not go running to go bonding with what you call the divine world, this only furthers my feelings that meditation is nothing more than escapism, the parallels to drug induced feelings of serenity and knowledge are clear. The only way to discover the true self is to live and think truly, in all situations, if you can sit on a train full of women in mini skirts, and see them all as your sisters, without effort, without panic, then you are living, in my opinion, truthfully, if you have to start meditating because the bad thoughts are starting, you will probably miss your stop, and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,



What Meditation is does is show you the illusion you don't really escape this world. realising the illusion can help you understanding things.





harry haller said:


> please do not put words in my mouth, read my quote again, that is not what I am saying, it is being inferred that Bani can be understood by grace, whilst grace undoubtedly has a hand, it is through hard work, and thinking, contemplation, and ultimately practice that enables one to understand Gurbani. Sometimes I sit in the bath for hours, with my three dogs sitting on the floor, and I think, and I keep thinking, batting ideas like tennis ***** in my head, I talk to the dogs, they unfortunately cannot answer, but after a while, I might come up with a theory, a path, an action, that may help me in my quest not to be ruled by the thieves, and I try it out, experiment with it, that to me is naam simran



I also have that when I'm laying on my bed, I'm thinking for hours coming with theories/paths/action, However there are many moments in our lives, that we lose the sight of the path and again get controlled by the thieves, thats where we read GGS ji to not stray from the path.




harry haller said:


> firstly define simran, secondly, fighting solves nothing, I have been fighting all my life, and I am quite fed up with it, it is a fight that cannot be won in my opinion, some facets of the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it, you then need it, and then the blinkers come down and all you can see is that thing, maybe that is when it becomes a thief, when it takes you over, when it ceases to be something 'nice' and becomes something 'essential', to make this call requires discipline and discretion, logic helps too, I've spent too long fighting to see others end their lives in a fight, maybe when bani talks of the thieves they are talking of our lusts being in control, rather than us being in control of them, so control them, control yourself, easier than destroying parts of you, in my opinion



With simran I meant reading/listening to GGS ji, your believes and mines are not that different, I think thats me whos unclear, I do believe you have to fight them, since if you let them control you it's like a poison thats easily can take over control.

" the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it"

Can you give an example of that?

In my eyes living in the truth is living how the guru's lived, everywhere they looked they saw the lords creatness.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,
> [|QUOTE]
> 
> i will describe it to you like this, and then after i will stop discussing this, as we'll just go round and round in Circles
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> " the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it"
> 
> Can you give an example of that?



plenty

firstly we are not Gurus, my wife and dogs would not be hugely impressed if I vanished for a couple of years to go searching for the truth, what Guru Nanakji did, he did for all humankind not for the self. As such his life, and all the lives of the Gurus were different to our lives, we are householders, we have jobs, we have to interact with people as equals, as employers, as employees, we have to stand up for ourselves when needed, when injustice is dished out to us, we have to fight for justice, in order to progress through the world that you call illusion, we have to feed ourselves, our families, our dogs, we have to deal with lusts, diversions, all the time the thieves are at play, there is no better example than the saying

money is the root of all evil
actually this is incorrect, the correct saying is
the love of money is the root of all evil

so I put it to you that the thieves are not the root of all evil, it is the love for the thieves that is.

If we are denied promotion at work again and again, and lesser people are promoted above us, should we sit back and meditate, or pray to god for justice, no, there is a part of us that feels pride, that strokes our ego, we are better than this, the lust for more money, for a better job, in small parts if these qualities drive us to stand up for ourselves and wish to be recognised, is that a bad thing? 

In my view the bad things happen when we give the thieves the keys, let them run riot, turn into people ruled by them, rather than accepting they are there and ruling them.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> harry haller said:
> 
> 
> > and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,
> ...


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> plenty
> 
> firstly we are not Gurus, my wife and dogs would not be hugely impressed if I vanished for a couple of years to go searching for the truth, what Guru Nanakji did, he did for all humankind not for the self. As such his life, and all the lives of the Gurus were different to our lives, we are householders, we have jobs, we have to interact with people as equals, as employers, as employees, we have to stand up for ourselves when needed, when injustice is dished out to us, we have to fight for justice, in order to progress through the world that you call illusion, we have to feed ourselves, our families, our dogs, we have to deal with lusts, diversions, all the time the thieves are at play, there is no better example than the saying



I know we are not Guru's but the Guru's want us to see how they saw things in the worlds, Like I've mentioned in other post a teacher would want his students to get arround his level or even beter if thats possible.



harry haller said:


> money is the root of all evil
> actually this is incorrect, the correct saying is
> the love of money is the root of all evil
> 
> so I put it to you that the thieves are not the root of all evil, it is the love for the thieves that is.



Harry Haller ji, I know that money it self is not root of all evil, and the luv for money is.



harry haller said:


> If we are denied promotion at work again and again, and lesser people are promoted above us, should we sit back and meditate, or pray to god for justice, no, there is a part of us that feels pride, that strokes our ego, we are better than this, the lust for more money, for a better job, in small parts if these qualities drive us to stand up for ourselves and wish to be recognised, is that a bad thing?



Yes, it is, we should be happy to see the others happy, we shouldn't care much about ourself, Guru's would never sacrificed them selfs for the Hindu's if they felt that pride. When we do sewa we also feel lower then the others we shouldn't have the feeling like why isn't he doing sewa, why do I have to do sewa, feelings like that drive you away from the path. The person who lives in the truth wouldn't care much about his promotion.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> Yes, it is, we should be happy to see the others happy, we shouldn't care much about ourself,



do you wish to tell that to the victims of 1984?


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> do you wish to tell that to the victims of 1984?



Taking someones live is different then getting a promotion, Guru's sons also died, if the king of that time where to stop the war and ask for forgiveness, Guru's would've forgived him. They lords light besides in everything, most people are blind to see it. And out of the blindness they do terrible things.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Taking someones live is different then getting a promotion, Guru's sons also died, if the king of that time where to stop the war and ask for forgiveness, Guru's would've forgived him. They lords light besides in everything, most people are blind to see it. And out of the blindness they do terrible things.



As Sikhs we encounter prejudice daily, those in full bana suffer even more than the baldies amongst us, injustice is injustice whether it be taking a life, or repression, sin in itself is not recognisable in Sikhism, thus forgiveness is by association possibly also unrecognisable. 

Sikhism teaches that consequences follow actions, one has to stand up for oneself, it is a primary facet of Sikhism, it is why we are armed, it is also why the two swords of miri and piri exist, so the illusory world was never discounted in Sikhism, it even got its own sword on a par with the spiritual world, your attitude seems almost Buddhist rather than Sikh


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Taking someones live is different then getting a promotion, Guru's sons also died, if the king of that time where to stop the war and ask for forgiveness, Guru's would've forgived him. They lords light besides in everything, most people are blind to see it. And out of the blindness they do terrible things.



A Complete truth...


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> As Sikhs we encounter prejudice daily, those in full bana suffer even more than the baldies amongst us, injustice is injustice whether it be taking a life, or repression, sin in itself is not recognisable in Sikhism, thus forgiveness is by association possibly also unrecognisable.
> 
> Sikhism teaches that consequences follow actions, one has to stand up for oneself, it is a primary facet of Sikhism, it is why we are armed, it is also why the two swords of miri and piri exist, so the illusory world was never discounted in Sikhism, it even got its own sword on a par with the spiritual world, your attitude seems almost Buddhist rather than Sikh



Harry Haller ji, good points.

With forgiveness I meant in the previous post, forgiving the king of that time thus not killing him. Since they saw the light in everyone.

Remember Bhagat Ravidas ji, they didn't care if someone gave them money or not when they made there shoes. Thats the attitude every sikh should have.

Don't care about getting a promotion or not, be happy for the others, and don't be greedy that you also need it.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> chazSingh said:
> 
> 
> > In my view, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has to be read and understood by the very practical attitude of the Gurus throughout their lives, many of the stories are fabricated rubbish, which is why generally, I refuse to quote them, however, it is without doubt that the Gurus fought for justice, fought wars with bloodshed and losses of people, I think they would not have bothered if the world is as illusory as your post intimates.
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> Don't care about getting a promotion or not, be happy for the others, and don't be greedy that you also need it.



As this thread is about the truth, as circular as the arguments get, and as repetitious as the arguments get, such is also how the search for the truth gets, sure we may leave the path here and there, but to see what is truth and what is lie is central to this thread, so unless mods feel it is becoming pointless, I will crack on. 

I find this thought process confusing especially given what Sikhism has been through, I did not think we were Christian type do gooders, ever ready to offer our other cheek for a slap, sure we serve, sure we help, but by damn we will stand up for ourselves, whether we are being used in the workplace, or being blamed for something that is not our fault, there is no mystical spaghetti monster that is going to put it all right, if Sikhism has taught me anything it is that wielding the sword of truth means we can do no wrong, the difficulty is knowing what is a universal truth and what is a lie. It is down to us to put things right, if someone rams your car from behind and then blames you for it, what are you doing to do? forgive them? get angry? blame them? no, I feel the Sikh way is very calmly to inform them that they are have just made themselves liable for car repairs and possibly damages for injuries, and thats it, period, no anger, no jumping up and down, no arguments. Your certainly not going to act like some modern day Jesus, forgive them and drive off smiling are you?


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> if someone rams your car from behind and then blames you for it, what are you doing to do? forgive them? get angry? blame them? no, I feel the Sikh way is very calmly to inform them that they are have just made themselves liable for car repairs and possibly damages for injuries, and thats it, period, no anger, no jumping up and down, no arguments. Your certainly not going to act like some modern day Jesus, forgive them and drive off smiling are you?



If someone blames you for that and you really haven't done it, all you need to do is speak the truth and not support the lie.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> If someone blames you for that and you really haven't done it, all you need to do is speak the truth and not support the lie.



then if the truth is that you deserve a promotion why would you not speak it?


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> then if the truth is that you deserve a promotion why would you not speak it?



Be happy what you get, some people have nothing. No need to be greedy for a promotion. Have contentment with what you have.
If the boss gave everyone promotion beside you, ask him without having greed in your mind, why he didn't give you your promotion.

If you feel like you work the hardest there and so you only deserve a promotion, then thats pride, ego, greed inside you thats controlling you. We should see our work as Sewa like chazSingh ji said, and always have in mind that we don't want more then others.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> then if the truth is that you deserve a promotion why would you not speak it?



if you feel you deserve a promotion then ask for it...but keep watch of the emotions that brew up inside of you if you don;t get what you feel you deserve...

if we see our jobs as just service to humanity then we are doing seva all day long...and the promotion may arrive anyway...but we have kept our *integrity* through and through

if we get engrossed in wanting the promotion, the extra money, the pride...and get hurt when we don;t receive it...and then stop giving our all to the job...cutting corners...not completing work...then we have lost all to the love of money...

there are so many variables in this it is difficult to evaluate...but i guess the important thing is to see in each moment if we are thinking of our work as service and not wanting anything in return (even though we actually get paid)

or whether our effort of work is based on wanting something in return...

i always used to think selfless service was just to do with charity...but i'm realizing it is every moment...work, rest and play


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

Gentlemen 

you both seem to equate the truth with being a doormat, as far as I am concerned being an employee is nothing more than a business arrangement, you provide the employer with your services, and your employer ensures you are paid accordingly. 

Chazji your quote in particular puzzles me, 



> or whether our effort of work is based on wanting something in return...



what your implying is that it is correct and true to work for someone, or engage in a business transaction with no expectation of reward. Since when did truthful living mean working for free?

Buddhists believe in attraction being a poison, you fellows seem to be on a similar path, attraction to pride, to ego, to greed, so you have gone the other way, you are now averse to it, is anti pride, anti greed, anti ego any better a position than the former? 

Is the person that hates sex any better than the person that loves it?

So this is what I have always meant by truthful living, the truth, the truth is not being attracted nor averse to anything, but this is where, in my opinion, it gets hard, one needs logic, sense, discretion to work out what is the true action and what is the false action, to expect to be remunerated for your work is a true statement, to expect to be rewarded for your skills by increased use of your skills is a true statement, to expect to work under someone whose skills are dwarfed by your own and who gives you tasks to carry out that are false, is not the truth, it causes you to act untruthfully through no fault of your own, and you are expected to stand by and watch this happen, a true person would stand up and proclaim the truth, to fight for the truth, yes, there is selfless service, but there is also standing up for the truth, both are compatible,


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

You shouldn't hate anything, you should realize what is controlling you, and conquer that(I know easy said then done) thats what I believe in. So an enlightened person wouldn't hate sex he would see it pointless beside procreation. He won't get the urge to have sex, since he is controlling the thieves and not opposite. Like I(speaking for myself) are being controlled like marionette by the thieves they are pulling the strings I've no control nor do I have the power to resist it, I see an enlightened person as a person having those strings in his controls.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> what your implying is that it is correct and true to work for someone, or engage in a business transaction with no expectation of reward. Since when did truthful living mean working for free?



just a state of mind ji...

of course we need money to live...but if promotions, more money is at the forefront of your mind, then that is what your world will become for you...

if service is at the forefront of your mind then that is what you;re doing....service...and your existence revolves around that.




> as I am concerned being an employee is nothing more than a business arrangement



*because Harry JI, remember the words that you said "i already see God in all"*

therefore with whom are you doing this business transaction with?
if you see God in all...why are you trying to do a business transaction with Him?

*are you really then seeing God in all?*

if you saw God in All...surely you're focus, attention would be on complete service to all knowing God is in all, and all is in God...(even though you are receiving Money for your work...which yes, we do need).

like i said, there are a million and one variations to each scenario and we can discuss over and over about each one...

in the end, me personally, i don't expect nor seek promotions...or more pay rises...my wife and friends think i am bonkers for thinking this way...

i now chose to just work hard and honestly and as truthfully as i can using the skills i have acquired...

and you know...sometimes without even expecting things...people take notice of those qualities...and without even asking for rewards they give them to you...

if i wasnt being treated right...i would say goodbye to my manager thanking for the work He has given me, and i would seek service elsewhere... (in a free society) / in a non free society...of course...once must fight to stop that

quite simples...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> You shouldn't hate anything, you should realize what is controlling you, and conquer that(I know easy said then done) thats what I believe in. So an enlightened person wouldn't hate sex he would see it pointless beside procreation. He won't get the urge to have sex, since he is controlling the thieves and not opposite. Like I(speaking for myself) are being controlled like marionette by the thieves they are pulling the strings I've no control nor do I have the power to resist it, I see an enlightened person as a person having those strings in his controls.



what a strange opinion, sex is pointless other than procreation? So your suggesting Sikh couples cease sex after they have had kids? Sex is a wonderful way of showing love between two loving people, it can be a wonderful way to connect, since when did Sikhism from on loving sex in a loving relationship?


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> what a strange opinion, sex is pointless other than procreation? So your suggesting Sikh couples cease sex after they have had kids? Sex is a wonderful way of showing love between two loving people, it can be a wonderful way to connect, since when did Sikhism from on loving sex in a loving relationship?



It's my own view, I don't know how Sikhism sees it, it also depends on the individual, like I believe if someone is pulling his own strings then yes it's pointless, if you think about it. Since your pulling the strings where the urge will come frome? This is what I meant with becoming the very image of lord himself, you are in a human body but your consciousness is on a complete different level it's one with the lord, where one can tell no difference between servent and lord himself, You hardly would think about small things like sex.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> of course we need money to live...but if promotions, more money is at the forefront of your mind, then that is what your world will become for you...



if you are true, with true thoughts then it would not be, you would just be focused on the truth, with true intentions



> if service is at the forefront of your mind then that is what you;re doing....service...and your existence revolves around that.



If service is the truth at that given time then that would be fine



> because Harry JI, remember the words that you said "i already see God in all"



I do, but I am also aware that the self exists in all too, if God asks me for service I will give it, if the self asks me I may not, allow me to explain

if a beggar asks me for food, I will get him food, if a beggar asks me for booze, I will not, that is the difference between using your brain to decipher what is true and what is not, only a fool gives without using discretion, sense. 



> if you see God in all...why are you trying to do a business transaction with Him?



I only do business transactions with the self, and even then I attempt to be still be true. 



> are you really then seeing God in all?



absolutely, seeing god in all does not by default turn you into a doormat. I do not give everyone everything they want from me, it is knowing what is true and what is not. 



> if you saw God in All...surely you're focus, attention would be on complete service to all knowing God is in all, and all is in God...(even though you are receiving Money for your work...which yes, we do need).
> 
> like i said, there are a million and one variations to each scenario and we can discuss over and over about each one...



We can discuss all of them, the truth is the truth, some intelligence is needed to sort out what is true and what is false, with those that are true, with true statements, I am happy to let my guard down, I will serve selflessly, but not all is true, and not all statements are true, at this time vigilance is called for, just because someone swears on a holy book they mean you no harm don't actually make it so.



> in the end, me personally, i don't expect nor seek promotions...or more pay rises...my wife and friends think i am bonkers for thinking this way...



ah right, you leave it all to good old goddy! he will make sure you are looked after, he knows whats good for you, he will look after you, well good luck with that one, the god I believe in does not intervene, if you draw a line from your thinking, then its best to get by on the minimum, do the best you can and leave the rest to god right?


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> what a strange opinion, sex is pointless other than procreation? So your suggesting Sikh couples cease sex after they have had kids? Sex is a wonderful way of showing love between two loving people, it can be a wonderful way to connect, since when did Sikhism from on loving sex in a loving relationship?



i think you'll find he's talking about 'an enlightened person'. A 'sikh' is not an enlightened being as described in Gurbani...A sikh is on his way to that state of being..
sex is what it is....to procreate...that is the sole reason for it to be there...when two people share love and their commitment to each other and create a child...

of course, in this age we have condoms so we enjoy the feelings of sex with one another and that feeling of love and connection and not have to worry about kids...and providing it remains in a loving relation then fine...

but what if you were in a place where contraception wasn't readily available...and didn't want a child...would you be able to refrain from having sex...and able to find other ways to connect and share your love?

we know from many places in the world...that people cannot control that urge...and what do you get, overpopulation...families with kids they didnt want, and kids they cannot look after.

that would be the true test of control over 5 thieves...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> It's my own view, I don't know how Sikhism sees it, it also depends on the individual, like I believe if someone is pulling his own strings then yes it's pointless, if you think about it. Since your pulling the strings where the urge will come frome? This is what I meant with becoming the very image of lord himself, you are in a human body but your consciousness is on a complete different level it's one with the lord, where one can tell no difference between servent and lord himself, You hardly would think about small things like sex.



Ah my apologies, throughout our conversations I assumed you were following the Sikh view, not your own view, also we differ slightly on end game, clearly you wish enlightenment, I have no interest in such, just truthful living is enough for me

what will you do when you achieve this Vedic like state?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> i think you'll find he's talking about 'an enlightened person'. A 'sikh' is not an enlightened being as described in Gurbani...A sikh is on his way to that state of being..
> sex is what it is....to procreate...that is the sole reason for it to be there...when two people share love and their commitment to each other and create a child...
> 
> of course, in this age we have condoms so we enjoy the feelings of sex with one another and that feeling of love and connection and not have to worry about kids...and providing it remains in a loving relation then fine...
> ...



My wife is going through the menopause, I do not self abuse, nor do I look at porn, sex is near impossible, do I pass your test?


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Ah my apologies, throughout our conversations I assumed you were following the Sikh view, not your own view, also we differ slightly on end game, clearly you wish enlightenment, I have no interest in such, just truthful living is enough for me
> 
> what will you do when you achieve this Vedic like state?



Haha yes I follow mostly Sikhism and partly Buddhism beliefs also if something from other religions make sense to me I also do accept that, I've been raised as a christian however been vegetarian for almost my entire live, which attracted me to eastern religions. 

Also I hardly can say what I will do when I'm in that state, since I'm no where close to that


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Haha yes I follow mostly Sikhism and partly Buddhism beliefs, raised as a christian however been vegetarian for almost my entire live, which attracted me to eastern religions.
> 
> Also I hardly can say what I will do when I'm in that state, since I'm no where close to that



do you know what happens when you install two antivirus packages on the same computer? They conflict with each other and leave you open to infection, the system also slows down to a crawl.

I commend you on wishing to better yourself at such a young age, I hope you find the truth


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Haha yes I follow mostly Sikhism and partly Buddhism beliefs also if something from other religions make sense to me I also do accept that, I've been raised as a christian however been vegetarian for almost my entire live, which attracted me to eastern religions.
> 
> Also I hardly can say what I will do when I'm in that state, since I'm no where close to that



but what is a Vedic like state that Harry Ji is referring to?

Harry Ji, please explain what this state is...there are many references to the state of the god conscious being in Gurbani (although this cannot truly be described, gurbani has given us  a lot of insight with which to reflect upon)...and our Guru's Ji's came across many as such from many different backgrounds...

A Lot of Truth also exists in other paths....it's the egotistical fools that corrupt that truth and mould it into something that can be sold...


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

Like someone here mentioned before, Sikhism didn't come out sky it was Guru's inner(spirtual) experience and outer experience with the others they even traveled alot in search for truth. I'm also doing that what makes sense to me, and I believe it to be right, thats what I believe in 0 . 
This is also the main reason, I'm here on this forum looking for truth.


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

ChazSingh ji, I think he is reffering to enlightened person, being the very image of the lord.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> but what is a Vedic like state that Harry Ji is referring to?
> 
> Harry Ji, please explain what this state is...there are many references to the state of the god conscious being in Gurbani (although this cannot truly be described, gurbani has given us  a lot of insight with which to reflect upon)...and our Guru's Ji's came across many as such from many different backgrounds...
> 
> A Lot of Truth also exists in other paths....it's the egotistical fools that corrupt that truth and mould it into something that can be sold...



Sikhism, in my view, is different to other religions in that I believe it to be a way of life, rather than a religion, I believe that corruption and misinterpretation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has led us back to exactly the point that Guru Nanakji wished us to stay clear off, namely, pointless rituals, superstitions, caste system, the belief that your spiritual integrity is somehow linked with what you eat, or how many times you have sex, how long you meditate for, what your chosen word is that you meditate on, these are all Vedic practices that belong in the Hindu religion. The Hindu religion is a wonderful religion, but if you wish to follow it, become a Hindu! The problem we have is Sikhism is just too damn boring! No celestial stuff, no naughty stories, (other than the DG), no meditation, and no becoming a superman with super celestial powers. I do not believe that any of the Gurus had celestial or super powers, I believe they were all true but hugely enlightened. 

Sikhism also has its roots firmly in living, living as a family person, married, with a sex life, with a car, a job, able to deal with money, people, just by following the path of truth, not aversion. Denying yourself is a Vedic practice, as is sitting on a mountain top meditating, withdrawing from the world, Sikhs love the world, but aim to see it without the veil of wants, desires, lusts, that is not to say one should not want, or desire or even lust, but know what is true and what is not. 

That is my take on it, and my take only


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## kggr001 (Jun 9, 2014)

Everyone has his/her own believes, and everyone has his/her own interpretation of what living in truth means. I think this thread leads to nowhere, we are kinda running in circles


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Everyone has his/her own believes, and everyone has his/her own interpretation of what living in truth means. I think this thread leads to nowhere



and do you why know why that is? because there is no standard for the truth, nothing to measure it by, sure we have universal truths like gravity, but on the whole, the truth is open completely, as a society, we put on pedestals today those whom we hung yesterday, the truth changes with time, but each step we get a bit closer, the world is a truer place than it was 100 years ago, look at the advancement in sexuality, in race. Equality for all is becoming the norm, as the world races towards the truth, however, I have a heartfelt belief that there exists a truth, a universal truth in how to behave, how to think, how to speak in any given situation, the right thing, the true thing, it is the truth that is the name of God, and in my opinion it is the truth we worship.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Sikhism, in my view, is different to other religions in that I believe it to be a way of life, rather than a religion, I believe that corruption and misinterpretation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has led us back to exactly the point that Guru Nanakji wished us to stay clear off, namely, pointless rituals, superstitions, caste system, the belief that your spiritual integrity is somehow linked with what you eat, or how many times you have sex, how long you meditate for, what your chosen word is that you meditate on, these are all Vedic practices that belong in the Hindu religion. The Hindu religion is a wonderful religion, but if you wish to follow it, become a Hindu! The problem we have is Sikhism is just too damn boring! No celestial stuff, no naughty stories, (other than the DG), no meditation, and no becoming a superman with super celestial powers. I do not believe that any of the Gurus had celestial or super powers, I believe they were all true but hugely enlightened.
> 
> Sikhism also has its roots firmly in living, living as a family person, married, with a sex life, with a car, a job, able to deal with money, people, just by following the path of truth, not aversion. Denying yourself is a Vedic practice, as is sitting on a mountain top meditating, withdrawing from the world, Sikhs love the world, but aim to see it without the veil of wants, desires, lusts, that is not to say one should not want, or desire or even lust, but know what is true and what is not.
> 
> That is my take on it, and my take only




great post...you raise some very good points, and i agree wholeheartedly on many of them...


But i think you are basically saying that through sikhi no one can have a true experience of God (an undeniable personal experience of God) whilst alive in this life...within themselves (like Gurbani so clearly says)....lets be honest, you've made it very clear that's what you believe...and that is the exact opposite to what Gurbani says...end of.

Because lets face it...that would undeniably be downright crazy...airy fair, hocus pokus kinda stuff...the world would laugh at such a person... lol

I Thank God/Gurbani/Guru JI that everything Guru Ji says is absolutely True...because like many people on this forum have realised through the Grace of Guru...

God CAN be realized within oneself....and it is pretty wacky stuff...but only to the one that doesn't believe...to the one that does, they have come across something so Wondrous within them that they cannot even describe in words...

Call them Wacky...Call them stupid...that is fine...because Gurbani also states that the world will call them crazy...

*and they are crazy*...*crazy in love *with the only thing that will remain and forever exist...

Gosh...i'm soo damn crazy...and i love being crazy...
the truth seeker will always follow his heart when the people around him/her label their search for God as Vedic (i still dont know what that is), mystical nonsense, hocus pokus, airy fairy, ...and they don't really mind because Guru Ji also tells us that will happen lol  Guru JI seems to know everything...could Guru Ji really be the 'Searcher of all hearts...the knower of everything" ... this is getting way to wacky to even hold a straight face lol (sarcasm)

one last thing on the truth seeker, the truth seeker will always continue to inspire others to do the same...to seek the truth 

God Bless Ji...


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

kggr001 said:


> Everyone has his/her own believes, and everyone has his/her own interpretation of what living in truth means. I think this thread leads to nowhere, we are kinda running in circles



I agree...i think i will continue basing my thoughts on what Gurbani Says 

god bless you on your journey through sikhi Ji...i've enjoyed reading your posts...and i can sense a great deal of thirst in you to find and experience this truth (whatever that means for you)...i'm pretty sure you will/are already having this experience..

God Bless


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

> But i think you are basically saying that through sikhi no one can have a true experience of God (an undeniable personal experience of God) whilst alive in this life...within themselves (like Gurbani so clearly says)....lets be honest, you've made it very clear that's what you believe...and that is the exact opposite to what Gurbani says...end of.



I think we have spent the day getting to know one another on this thread, its been good, I have enjoyed it, although you are wrong about me, I think the highest personal experience one can have of God is to be true and in consonance with your surroundings, when one can be this, then one has finally found God, and all the bliss that Gurbani describes.


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## gur_meet (Jun 9, 2014)

I mentioned in my post today that Shabads . Here are some where gurbani explains that meeting the true one  Sach (truth) is what one becomes.

ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਚੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
Sach Milai Sach Oopajai Sach Mehi Saach Samaae || 
Meeting the True One, Truth wells up. The truthful are absorbed into the True Lord. 
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਤਿ ਊਗਵੈ ਗੁਰਬਚਨੀ ਭਉ ਖਾਇ ॥ 
Surath Hovai Path Oogavai Gurabachanee Bho Khaae || 
Intuitive understanding is obtained and one is welcomed with honor, through the Guru's Word, filled with the Fear of God.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੦॥ 
Naanak Sachaa Paathisaahu Aapae Leae Milaae ||4||10|| O Nanak, the True King absorbs us into Himself. ||4||10|| 
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੮ ਪੰ. ੩  page 18

ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੈ ਸੋ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥
 Jis Anthar Preeth Lagai So Mukathaa ||
 Those whose inner beings are attached to the Lord's Love are liberated.  
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਵਸਿ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥ 
Eindhree Vas Sach Sanjam Jugathaa || 
They control their sexual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth. 
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਏ ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥
 Gur Kai Sabadh Sadhaa Har Dhhiaaeae Eaehaa Bhagath Har Bhaavaniaa ||7|| 
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, they meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord. ||7| ਮਾਝ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੨ page 122


ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਸੂਚਾ ॥ 
Sathigur Miliai Sach Sanjam Soochaa || 
Meeting the True Guru, one becomes truthful, chaste and pure. 
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪਉੜੀ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ॥ 
Gur Kee Pourree Oocho Oochaa || 
Climbing up the steps of the Guru's Path, one becomes the highest of the high. 
ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਮੂਚਾ ॥੩॥ Karam Milai Jam Kaa Bho Moochaa ||3|| 
When the Lord grants His Mercy, the fear of death is conquered. ||3|| 
ਗਉੜੀ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੫੩ page 153


Now to the TOPIC.


 From what I observe this discussion is in a loop. How can it proceed without the light of Gurbani.  What I feel is any discussion to be fruitful in understanding gurbani's message and guidance should have basis in gurbani with prior reflection.
 A general discussion would be just an exchange of views.


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## gur_meet (Jun 9, 2014)

Harry ji is right in saying that gurbani does not bar a Sikh to live an householders life despite cautioning repeatedly about the entanglement of worldly life. But at the same time says :

ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ Sach Simariai Hovai Paragaas ||
 Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened. 
 ਤਾ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥
 Thaa Thae Bikhiaa Mehi Rehai Oudhaas || 
Then, in the midst of Maya, he remains detached. 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਐਸੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ 
Sathigur Kee Aisee Vaddiaaee || 
Such is the Glory of the True Guru; 
ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
 Puthr Kalathr Vichae Gath Paaee ||2|| 
In the midst of children and spouses, they attain emancipation. ||2||
 ਧਨਾਸਰੀ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੬੬੧ Page 661

The caution is to listen and act on what guru says.


I think there should be a separate clarifying discussion on meditation. This word is used by the translators and is causing confusion.


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## chazSingh (Jun 9, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> Harry ji is right in saying that gurbani does not bar a Sikh to live an householders life despite cautioning repeatedly about the entanglement of worldly life. But at the same time says :
> 
> ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ Sach Simariai Hovai Paragaas ||
> Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened.
> ...



thank you ji for posting..

there have already been many threads about naam simran...meditation...Simran etc etc...

one thing we learned is that everyone has their own personal views on what this is and what it isn't...and we end up with a thread of everyone trying to prove their view is correct...

i am one that wakes up at amrit vela and does a lot of my contemplating on Gurbani, naam simran and mediation during those hours

some say this is vedic and non sikh...others stand by it.

i guess the truth seeker will always try various things and if it bears fruit and Gurbani manifests and becomes true for them, then they should continue with whatever is working for them.

God Bless you ji


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## Harry Haller (Jun 9, 2014)

chazSingh said:


> thank you ji for posting..
> 
> there have already been many threads about naam simran...meditation...Simran etc etc...
> 
> ...



I am afraid I am with Chazji, I cannot think of anything else to add, to be honest, there is nothing left to say, however what I will concede is that we are all on our own journey, and we are all Sikhs. If we are talking about the established line of Sikhism, well from that view, Chazji is proceeding brilliantly and I am a heretic. 

Its been a great day, I learned a lot!


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## Harry Haller (Jun 10, 2014)

so let us try something pragmatic, I am in business, I have rents to pay, three dogs to feed, a cat, the washing machine is up the spout, my landlord is upset because the puppies have eaten away a lot of the woodwork in our living room, I have only just finished laying out money  to have the garden turfed and cleaned up, one sofa has been completely ripped apart, so we have to sit on the other sofa, not a huge problem, but as can be seen, every penny makes a difference,. 

I have just listed some hardware on ebay, the new price is £699, they seem to be selling for £399 second hand, I paid £100, a supplier is expecting a payment of at least £200 by 4pm today, the best offer at present is £250 x 2, what should I do? 

I would have been happy with £200 x 2, but now I have an idea of interest, I am getting greedy, also pride is there, in that I am not going to let these go for less than they are worth, should I take the money, or hold out for a few days and get the best price?

Chazji in particular, I would be interested in your take on this


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## chazSingh (Jun 10, 2014)

harry haller said:


> so let us try something pragmatic, I am in business, I have rents to pay, three dogs to feed, a cat, the washing machine is up the spout, my landlord is upset because the puppies have eaten away a lot of the woodwork in our living room, I have only just finished laying out money  to have the garden turfed and cleaned up, one sofa has been completely ripped apart, so we have to sit on the other sofa, not a huge problem, but as can be seen, every penny makes a difference,.
> 
> I have just listed some hardware on ebay, the new price is £699, they seem to be selling for £399 second hand, I paid £100, a supplier is expecting a payment of at least £200 by 4pm today, the best offer at present is £250 x 2, what should I do?
> 
> ...



Me personally...

if i was a very truthful person and in your situation


i would be *content* because i already have the price i am happy with i.e. the profits cover my living costs...

i would leave the items on for the duration of the auction to give everyone a *fair* chance to bid and maybe if someone wants to offer more...the extra money can go towards *seva, un-expected living costs etc...*

i would *not* *deceive* anyone and try to make them out to be more expensive than they are worth...or advertise as in working order when i know they may *not be...*

during all this i would be in *peace* that i already have a suitable bid that is *great for me, and great for the buyer...afterall God exists in the buyer as well*...i don't want to rip them off...*at the very deepest level all i would be doing is trying to deceive God*

*2 happy people* (buyer and seller)...and i'm not sat around my computer trying to think of ways to squeeze out more money.

In fact i would spend this peaceful state doing some *simran, or reading some bani, or spending time with my family* ... all whilst this auction based on the *truth* carried on in the background...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 10, 2014)

I have continued this on a separate thread, Gur Meet ji feel free to post relevant shabads so we can all discuss and learn


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